# Legion Poppy Copyright issues (bikers, NHL, etc.)



## Occam

Is it any wonder the Legion is suffering from a shortage of new members?

If you'd like to see the offending poppy, go to http://www.cvfr.ca/ and look on the soldier's helmet.  Have a magnifying glass at the ready.



Shared in accordance with the usual caveats...

Original link

Legion tells biker vets: No poppy for you 

By Scott Taylor, QMI Agency 

OTTAWA — The iconic poem In Flanders Fields immortalized the poppy as a symbol of remembrance for Canadian soldiers since the First World War.

But it's also a registered trademark, owned and so closely guarded by the Royal Canadian Legion that a motorcycle club of veterans isn't allowed to include a small one in its own logo without lawyers threatening legal action.

Capt. Michael Blow, president of the Canadian Veteran Freedom Riders (CVFR), who devoted 35 years of his life to the military, has one in his club's crest. It's a little difficult to see, but it's there.

And the Legion doesn't like that one bit.

They had a law firm send a letter to Blow insisting he and his crew of more than 70 riders and veterans immediately remove the image of the poppy from their logo.

The letter says, in part:	

"If we do not have a satisfactory reply within two weeks of the date of this letter, we shall recommend to the Legion that it commence immediate legal proceedings."

The CVFR sometimes raises funds for vets who need help. Blow thought they were all on the same side.

"I honestly don't know how an organization that continually spouts off about how they respect vets can legally hold a copyright on a symbol of remembrance," he said. "I wear the patch for support and honourary respect of veterans."

The poppy is certainly not the focal point of the crest, and he said it's modelled after the British version, but it's the principle that irks him the most.

"For the Legion to turn around and threaten me with litigation because I'm using the poppy is not morally right," he said.

Legion secretary Bill Maxwell agreed it might not sound fair, but there's a reason for the trademark.

"Normally, for personal or private logos, we don't authorize use of the poppy. The poppy trademark was registered in 1948 to ensure that it would never be used for commercial or personal gain or used inappropriately."

He added the image on any logo in the country would most probably not be approved for that reason.

"That's because it's not being used as a symbol of remembrance, but as part of a logo."

Blow scoffed at that.

"Remembrance is the only reason I'm using it," he said.


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## Lex Parsimoniae

Irony defined:  The Bikers patch is also copyrighted (#1077086)...


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## FlyingDutchman

On the one hand, trademarks must be enforced.  If they let it slide, they can be forced to give up the trademark and then the poppy can be used for what ever purpose by anyone (from what I understand about trademark law, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.)  I would be put off by unflattering depictions.

On the other hand, those are vets who want to use the poppy for remembrance.  People who served our country, and should be honored accordingly.  Perhaps a -small- out of court settlement could be reached to allow them to continue the use of the poppy.  Another solution could be showing the poppy from a different angle, or are all depictions of the poppy trademarked?


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## Teeps74

One of the many examples for why I no longer go near the Legions.


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## FlyingDutchman

Lex Parsimoniae said:
			
		

> Irony defined:  The Bikers patch is also copyrighted (#1077086)...


Quick googling brought this up.



> Copyrights are typically related to original works of authorship, like a book or poem or screenplay or music (lyrics or music), while a trademark relates to brand names, slogans and logos.



So, we have something that is an original piece of work which uses a brand logo.


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## Journeyman

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> One of the many examples for why I no longer go near the Legions.


 :goodpost:

But that being said, aren't you afraid of the Legion lawyers, with you having a poppy as your icon at this time of year?


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## jollyjacktar

I took the time to write the RCL last night and told them what I thought of them being anal like this.


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## The Bread Guy

FlyingDutchman said:
			
		

> On the other hand, those are vets who want to use the poppy for remembrance.  People who served our country, and should be honored accordingly.  Perhaps a -small- out of court settlement could be reached to allow them to continue the use of the poppy.  Another solution could be showing the poppy from a different angle, or are all depictions of the poppy trademarked?



I'm guessing it's the four-petal poppy image w/the black centre that's copyrighted.  I note the Brit two-petal poppy image (attached and shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._) is also copyrighted.  Mind you, I can't find stories (yet) about the U.K. Legion trying to stop groups from usurping the symbol.


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## chrisf

FlyingDutchman said:
			
		

> If they let it slide, they can be forced to give up the trademark and then the poppy can be used for what ever purpose by anyone .



They could just give specific written permission to use it, different then just not enforcing their trademark...


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## Teeps74

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> But that being said, aren't you afraid of the Legion lawyers, with you having a poppy as your icon at this time of year?



They can sue me... Does that mean they get my debts? Perhaps I would just filibuster them into exhaustion... I was always good at procrastination.


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## Michael OLeary

It's time this was challenged by someone. While the Legion may have trademarked their particular drawing of the poppy icon, it doesn't (nor in my opinion ever has) stood solely as a Legion symbol. They have promoted it as a symbol of Remembrance above and beyond any direct Legion connection. No-one sees a poppy and thinks "oh, the Legion must have been here" or "that person must have been sold that poppy by a Legionnaire." They've made their own bed, perhaps they should have trademarked it as "The Legion Poppy" and made certain that it was only sold and referred to as such.

Although this source is most likely primarily American in its legal contexts, its premise applies: Genericized trademark


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## dapaterson

A quick bit of hunting, and you can see the poppy that's trademarked by the Legion:

http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/vwTrdmrk.do;jsessionid=0001RAnz-4cUTejWJK-JyD9Egt2:-52L6HB?lang=eng&status=OK&fileNumber=1094997&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=31

http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/vwTrdmrk.do;jsessionid=0001RAnz-4cUTejWJK-JyD9Egt2:-52L6HB?lang=eng&status=OK&fileNumber=0980289&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=31


Thus, using the UK version in Canada should permit folks to avoid engaging the Legion.

(Note:  I am not a lawyer.  Even if I was, taking legal advice from a random person on the internet is not advisable).


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## PuckChaser

Check out the CVFR website, "In the Press". Second story has them holding a ceremony in Orleans at the Legion as a "shadow repatriation". Legion wants them to be there and drink their beer...


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## 57Chevy

Occam said:
			
		

> or used inappropriately



Someone please explain to me how they are using it inappropriately.

Let them take it to court.


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## Danjanou

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> It's time this was challenged by someone. While the Legion may have trademarked their particular drawing of the poppy icon, it doesn't (nor in my opinion ever has) stood solely as a Legion symbol. They have promoted it as a symbol of Remembrance above and beyond any direct Legion connection. No-one sees a poppy and thinks "oh, the Legion must have been here" or "that person must have been sold that poppy by a Legionnaire." They've made their own bed, perhaps they should have trademarked it as "The Legion Poppy" and made certain that it was only sold and referred to as such.
> 
> Although this source is most likely primarily American in its legal contexts, its premise applies: Genericized trademark



I agree.  It's seems every year around now the Legion manages to literally shoot itself in the foot, be it this or the old lady making poppy cookies to honour those who make that last trip down the 401 from Trenton. The "leadership" is selfserving and needs to be dealt with, and I'm speaking as a Legion member. :


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## Edward Campbell

The solution is simple: everyone, except the RCL, should stop using the poppy. Stop buying them, stop wearing them, stop displaying them.

The poppy was selected as our "symbol of remembrance" for pretty obvious reasons:







It used to be that they were worn on Remembrance Day only, then, gradually, we went to wearing them for a whole week before Remembrance Day, then from 1 Nov onward. Now I see them in late Oct and every time some people say the word "veteran" (a class of people to whom the poppy does not apply) they whip out their poppy and pin it on their lapel. The poppy has gone from being part of a "Act of Remembrance" to being a prop without which the well dressed politico or newsreader must never be seen.

By all means wear your poppy, the one your bought last year, on 11 Nov - but let's let the darned thing wither and die.

_"All these were honoured in their generations, and were the glory of their times. 
And some there be, which have no memorial; who are perished, as though they had never been; and are become as though they had never been born; and their children after them. 
But these were merciful men, whose righteousness hath not been forgotten. 
Their bodies are buried in peace; but their name liveth for evermore."_
Ecclesiasticus 44:7, 9, 10& 14

They, our war dead, don't need poppies because they "were the glory of their times" and "their name liveth for evermore" - that's probably sufficient.


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## Cloud Cover

The trademark brand and copyright images can be licensed by the Legion for certain uses in accordance with their brand guidelines. 
Anyway, trademark licensing is one of the intended purposes of having a trademark registration system.


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## Spooks

Forgive my possible ignorance here, but isn't the case with copyright laws that if you use the original material in a composition IOT make something new, then you are not breaking copyright laws? I thought that was the rule protecting musical artists that sample each other or digital artists that use pieces/sample from other's work.


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## dapaterson

This is trademark, not copyright law.  There are significant differences.

However, the TM of the Legion is quite specific in terms of design.  Using the UK style of poppy would not be covered by the Legion's TM; similarly, the white poppies used by some groups are also not covered.


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## Edward Campbell

dapaterson said:
			
		

> This is trademark, not copyright law.  There are significant differences.
> 
> However, the TM of the Legion is quite specific in terms of design.  Using the UK style of poppy would not be covered by the Legion's TM; similarly, the white poppies used by some groups are also not covered.




Then perhaps, in order not to offend the RCL's legal rights, members who use the poppy as their avatar should change to something like this:


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## Gunner98

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The solution is simple: everyone, except the RCL, should stop using the poppy. Stop buying them, stop wearing them, stop displaying them.



Please don't forget the RCL Poppy Trust Fund and its daily good work: http://www.legion.ca/ServiceBureau/BenevolentFunds_e.cfm

Each year approximately 18 million poppies are distributed by Legionnaires, Veterans and cadets across the nation. The proceeds, after deducting expenses such as the costs of poppies, wreaths and other supplies, are placed in trust to be used for the benevolent support of Veterans and their dependants.

The primary purpose of the Poppy Trust Fund is to provide financial assistance to ex-servicemen and women in need, and to their dependants. In accordance with the General By-laws of The Royal Canadian Legion, the need may be for shelter, food, fuel, clothing, prescription medicine or necessary transportation. Comforts for ex-service personnel and their surviving spouses who are hospitalized and in need may also be provided. These comforts are defined as confectioneries, reading material, flowers, personal toiletry articles, and other items of a similar nature.


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## Jarnhamar

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> One of the many examples for why I no longer go near the Legions.



Couldn't agree more.  I have no interest in joining the legion and this just adds to that. No one from my generation seems to have any real interest in it either. The legion feels like a bunch of civilians running it who 'put up' with having to be associated with the current CF but don't like it.

I've stopped going to the legion for things like suppers put on for afghan vets and I won't go visiting on rememberence day anymore.

Every year around this time there is some story about the legion getting angry and offended over something.


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## FlyingDutchman

Looking closlely, I cannot really tell which version of the poppy it is.  Heck, if someone didn't tell me it was a poppy, I might have even noticed it there.


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## the 48th regulator

This one was my favourite......



Legion burns cookies

Bakery told to nix poppy tribute



By JOE WARMINGTON

Last Updated: 6th November 2009, 5:33am


First it was the Highway of Heroes pins shunned and now the Royal Canadian Legion feels the baking of poppy cookies is violating the rules, too. 
What was it John McCrae wrote in his 1915 poem In Flanders Fields? 
"Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw, the torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die; We shall not sleep though poppies grow; In Flanders fields." 
Somehow the Canadian doctor on the frontlines of the First World War who immortalized the poppy wasn't thinking this when he wrote of a "quarrel with the foe" and "the torch" be ours to hold high. 
But sadly here we are 94 years later.

Imagine even the suggestion that a Cobourg bakery, fulfilling the order of some poppy cookies for the family of a fallen Canadian soldier from the Afghanistan conflict, would be breaking the copyright rules for the poppy? 






"That would be a violation of the trademark," explains Royal Canadian Legion spokesman Bob Butt, adding the legion understands people are "well meaning" when they use the poppy and unaware of the rules. 
But rules are rules. 
"You would not believe the misuses of the poppy we have to investigate," Butt says. 
Unaware of this copyright, the people at the Dutch Oven Bakery say that, now that they know, "we won't fulfil the order if asked again next year." 
We are supposed to be at war with the Taliban, not each other. We have Canadians at bitter odds over who gets to use the poppy to raise money for victims of war. 
Can't imagine our brave soldiers dying in battle for this. 
And although the legion has taken a tough stand at the top end, not everybody agrees at the branch level. 
"They have got to get their head out of their butts," says Wayne Powell, poppy chairman for Scarborough's Legion Branch 258 and a retired 54 Division copper. 
"They are turning down an opportunity to raise a lot of money for veterans' families. These things will sell like hotcakes." 
The part that irks him is that there seems to be selective fairness. He says the legion permits the use of the poppy for certain events and charities, while declining others. 
And Powell can't understand why it's OK for a hockey team to use a poppy on its sweater to raffle off but not pins and cookies. 
He feels it should be equal for everybody and he also wants a softer approach from legion brass, saying for them to go easier on the threatening lawyer letters. 
However, Butt points out that the legion has the right to do with the poppy what it feels is in its best interest and that none of it has ever been for commercial use. 
The money it raises, he says, is used very well. 
Meanwhile, those baking cookies or who've made the pins certainly had no intention of breaking any rules and had the best of intentions of helping military families. 
Butt says it has nothing to do with that. It isn't theirs to use. It's that simple. The fact is the legion "has the copyright" on the poppy. 
"In the case of the Highway of Heroes pins, permission to use the poppy was not sought and permission was not granted." 
He says those pins create direct competition for the poppy fund, which already generates $15 million a year. 
"That money goes directly to the veterans," Butt says. "Does the money from the cookies?" 
The Highway of Heroes pins have raised more than $8,000 for Afghanistan war veterans' families, but the legion says that isn't the point. 
There's a principle here and there are guidelines being broken. 
Meanwhile, Paul Hallas, the Ganaraska Credit Union CEO who donated $10,000 to make the pins to raise money and awareness for families, says: "What am I supposed to do with the 2,500 pins?" 
"He can give them to us and we will destroy them," Butt says. 
CORPORATE MENTALITY 
It seems rigid. Cold. Corporate. Branch 258's Powell says give them to him and he'll raise $50,000 to help families who need help. Damn the protocol! 
Both sides make points and there's a way to work this out without it further muddying the pristine image of the poppy, of which every Canadian living free has a piece of in their hearts. 
There's enough poppy to go around for everybody if it means getting more help to the brave men and women who defend our nation. 
In the middle of writing this, I re-read medic John McCrae's In Flanders Fields and couldn't find the words copyright infringement, exclusive or cease and desist anywhere. 
What you'll find is a passage that reads: 
"We are the dead. Short days ago, we lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, loved, and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders fields." 
Let's not forget that or them. In the name of those who died under our flag, what we need here is compromise. 
JOE.WARMINGTON@SUNMEDIA.CA

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act




I find it crass that they would use a lawyer to send the cease and desist.  Why not try with asking directly.  I mean, they were just putting it on a bike patch, not makeing products and selling it on ebay.

dileas

tess


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## Gunner98

I am wondering if the Legion's lawyers will next go after every flower shop, landscaper and garden store like Home Depot for selling poppies and their seeds from which the profits to do not go to the RCL. ???


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## dapaterson

Does the Legion provide an open, transparent, public accounting of the Poppy Fund expenditures?  I'm rather partial to making charitible donations to well-run organizations that are open in all they do.


Currently, fewer than 1 in 3 Legion members have prior military service.  Memebers without military service have been the majority since the mid 1980s.  The Legion membership has been steadily shrinking; the last time membership increased was in 1989.  In the subsequent years over 250 000 members have been lost.

The Legion is in a long, slow death spiral.  The case that started this thread would ahve been an excellent opportunity for the Legion to reach out and welcome others - imagine if their lawyers had, instead, invited the CVFR to discuss a licensing agreement.  Something along the lines of "We're glad to see you want to participate in remembrance; the poppy is our trademark, let's talk and make your use legal."


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## FlyingDutchman

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Legion burns cookies
> 
> (SNIP!)



*Eyetwitch.*  :brickwall:


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## Danjanou

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Does the Legion provide an open, transparent, public accounting of the Poppy Fund expenditures?  I'm rather partial to making charitible donations to well-run organizations that are open in all they do.
> 
> 
> Currently, fewer than 1 in 3 Legion members have prior military service.  Memebers without military service have been the majority since the mid 1980s.  The Legion membership has been steadily shrinking; the last time membership increased was in 1989.  In the subsequent years over 250 000 members have been lost.
> 
> The Legion is in a long, slow death spiral.  The case that started this thread would ahve been an excellent opportunity for the Legion to reach out and welcome others - imagine if their lawyers had, instead, invited the CVFR to discuss a licensing agreement.  Something along the lines of "We're glad to see you want to participate in remembrance; the poppy is our trademark, let's talk and make your use legal."



Apparently not

http://www.on.legion.ca/

At least not to outsiders. Financial statments including Poppy Funds are presented at meeetings  at all levels Branch, Zone, nd District  i've attended and theri is acountability internally.  Seems you're right re membership ratios too

http://www.rcldistrictd.com/Membership.html  Some branches and cliques are worse than others too. Another sad fact I deal with on a regualr basis.


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## Jimmy_D

I am surprised they allow the design of veterans plates with poppies on them, with the way they are going. What is the difference between a poppy on you license plate, to a poppy on a patch of a VETERANS bikers club?


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## Danjanou

Jimmy_D said:
			
		

> I am surprised they allow the design of veterans plates with poppies on them, with the way they are going. What is the difference between a poppy on you license plate, to a poppy on a patch of a VETERANS bikers club?



Simple the Legion gets $5.00 per plate application



> Application for Veteran Plate Eligibility Certifi cation
> Section 3 - To be completed by Signing Authority of The Royal Canadian Legion, Ontario Provincial
> Command.
> IPlease Note: To receive a Veteran plate, this application form (signed and stamped by the
> Royal Canadian Legion, Ontario Command) must be submitted, with all other required
> applications and documents, to your local ServiceOntario centre.
> Instructions: Mail completed form, photocopies of proof of service, fee and a self addressed stamped
> envelope to the Royal Canadian Legion Offi ce to the address at the top of this application form. Make cheque or money
> order in the amount of $5.00 payable to: The Royal Canadian Legion, Ontario Provincial Command.
> For information concerning the status of your application, please call Tel: (905) 841-7999



http://www.on.legion.ca/membersOnly/Documents/VeteransLicencePlateEnglish.pdf


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## Towards_the_gap

And here's me, just about to fill out a legion application.......Nevermind thinks I.

As many have stated in this thread, it has morphed from an old-comrades association of ex-servicemen to a service club where ex-servicemen are accomodated. I was wary to begin with of joining a legion, now every time I see them trotting around in blazers, left breast bare save for an awful lot of Golden Jubilee medals (funnily enough, the one you can buy and wear quite easily without an eyebrow being raised), I think even less of the legion.

I'm almost tempted to send in my veteran plate to the dominion command, with an apology letter for my copyright infringement. (I know they get $5 from each plate, I'd just be doing it out of spite).


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## Fishbone Jones

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Please don't forget the RCL Poppy Trust Fund and its daily good work: http://www.legion.ca/ServiceBureau/BenevolentFunds_e.cfm
> 
> Each year approximately 18 million poppies are distributed by Legionnaires, Veterans and cadets across the nation. The proceeds, after deducting expenses such as the costs of poppies, wreaths and other supplies, are placed in trust to be used for the benevolent support of Veterans and their dependants.
> 
> The primary purpose of the Poppy Trust Fund is to provide financial assistance to ex-servicemen and women in need, and to their dependants. In accordance with the General By-laws of The Royal Canadian Legion, the need may be for shelter, food, fuel, clothing, prescription medicine or necessary transportation. Comforts for ex-service personnel and their surviving spouses who are hospitalized and in need may also be provided. These comforts are defined as confectioneries, reading material, flowers, personal toiletry articles, and other items of a similar nature.



This doesn't apply universally. Branches can 'opt out'. Mine for example. Money brought in by the sale of poppies, in my Branch, stays in my Branch for use by my Branch. It doesn't go to Dominion, where most of the money is now eaten up in administartive costs, instead of going for what it was originally intended (all those other things for Veterans, that you stated).

Face it. The Legion has lost it's intent and focus. It's now a civie corporation run by civies for the civies. Veterens are simply an afterthought and a beacon they can point to as a figurehead reason for existing. Some small enclaves, staffed by Veterans, for Veterans, still exist but we are getting fewer and fewer. Soon, they will all be swallowed up by the civies that wear Legion outfits, with their right chest full of Legion bling shaking hands and running ceremonies on Nov 11 and spending the rest of the year grousing that Veterans won't shore up their little clubs.


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## Michael OLeary

And all of this is why I belong to a (perhaps the only) Legion branch that has never owned a building, does not participate in commercial activities, holds only two meetings (read: dinners) per year and nearly all members are serving or retired military.


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## ArmyRick

Too sad to see that is what it has become. Basically the theme seems to be The RCL is mostly a social club? I was a member of the RCL but not anymore.


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## vonGarvin

As I understand it, the Royal Canadian Legion was founded out of several veterans' associations.  Maybe it's time to put a fork in this one, because it's done?

But I feel that there is a need for some sort of Vetarans' Associations.  Not just one, but several.  You could have the Cold War Veterans' Association, the Peacekeeping Veterans' Association and even the Afghan War Veterans' Association, all loosely affiliated under the umbrella of a Canadian Veterans' Association.

The aim?  Simply a place for those veterans to maintain ties, support one another, lobby government, encourage remembrance, including education.


I don't know.  These are just random thoughts from a guy pontificating on the internet, so take it for what it's worth...


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## Danjanou

C'mon Michael share, so we can transfer there. My little enclave ( and that's the best description) isn't too bad, there are a higher perscentage of actual retired military in my branch and on the executive than I've seen in others probably the reason I t transferred to it.


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## jollyjacktar

I would say that the original objective of the RCL has been taken over by the civilians.  But, perhaps we as serving members have surrendered this ground and allowed it to degrade to this point.  Mind you this is not (complaints by military folk) necessarily new.  My Dad told me that when he returned home from overseas in 45 he went to the No. 1 Legion Branch in Calgary to find that he was refused entry as he was just back from the war.  Needless to say he was pissed at the treatment and did not become a member until decades had passed.  I suspect that most of us here have some TI and are more mature in years.  Does such a thing as a veteran's organization interest the youngsters today?  I agree with Techno that we have to take our institution back or make a split and begin again.  But are there enough of us that care and can make this happen out there?


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## Danjanou

Technoviking said:
			
		

> As I understand it, the Royal Canadian Legion was founded out of several veterans' associations.  Maybe it's time to put a fork in this one, because it's done?
> 
> But I feel that there is a need for some sort of Vetarans' Associations.  Not just one, but several.  You could have the Cold War Veterans' Association, the Peacekeeping Veterans' Association and even the Afghan War Veterans' Association, all loosely affiliated under the umbrella of a Canadian Veterans' Association.
> 
> The aim?  Simply a place for those veterans to maintain ties, support one another, lobby government, encourage remembrance, including education.
> 
> 
> I don't know.  These are just random thoughts from a guy pontificating on the internet, so take it for what it's worth...



Downside of that is that if you really want to lobby Government on veteran's rights, and influence public opinion you need numbers and that's means one large organization rather that dozens of smaller niche ones. What kind of brand name loyalty or impact do the following individual groups have on the general populace?

http://www.ncva-cnaac.ca/ncva/?page_id=5

Want to bet most are not aware there were so many organizations. As for the umbrella organization that I posted the link on, well we all know how well umbrella coalitions work?

Perhaps it may be better to retake what was ours rather than reinvent the wheel. We already have some enclaves for a firm base to start from it seems. It may be futile in the long run, but it could at least be entertaining.


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## muskrat89

A bit off-topic, but I believe pertinent. For those of you frustrated with the RCL but value the good work done for veterans, there is an alternative.

http://www.anavets.ca/

If there's not a Unit in your area, you can start one - that's what I did in Woodstock, NB.


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## Good2Golf

Reinforcing its own irrelevance!  :not-again:


If not already done, CVFR should ensure the poppy is a stylized image, which is not trademarked.  While I hadn't really any thoughts of joining the Legion upon my retirement, this unfolding of event has convinced me that the Legion will not be part of my future.  It's not about the poppy, it's about the detached, legalistic spirit the Dominion command has used.  The Legion will get no support from this veteren-to-be.


Here's an option: Soldier On!


Note that 100% of donations to Soldier On are given to the soldiers -- there is no administration fee taken from donations, admin is paid by the crown.


> *What percentage of the donation is spent on administrative costs?*
> No administrative costs are deducted from a donation. 100% of contributions go directly to support injured soldiers.




Regards
G2G


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## aesop081

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> A bit off-topic, but I believe pertinent. For those of you frustrated with the RCL but value the good work done for veterans, there is an alternative.
> 
> http://www.anavets.ca/



Yup. Everywhere i find myself on Remembrance day, i will go to them rather than the RCL.


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## 57Chevy

I just have to add this article from Facebook:


http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=168034776553469
The story of how the Poppy became an international symbol of remembrance is a remarkable one.


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## Scoobs

This is just pure silliness on the Legion's part.  Full disclosure, I am a Legion member, but my Legion pays for my membership.  To be honest, I would have never thought about becoming a member.  I have seen these silly stories or actions by the Legion over the years and they wonder why their membership is decreasing????

Take a long look at this thread Legion executives.  WE ARE THE FUTURE OF YOUR LEGION.  This is reality.  Deal with it.  These silly actions will not increase your numbers.  If your response is that the Legion will survive without us, then really, you want to become an organization that apparently looks out for veterans, but will almost entirely be run by civvies?

I agree that a large org needs to represent our interests, but be careful Legion, you may not be that org in the future.

Legion, why didn't you just send the biker org a letter, explain the need to register the use of the poppy to them, and then see what response you got.  These strong arm tactics at the beginning of any contact is simply unacceptable.  Grow up and start realizing that you are only alienating the future.


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## Cdnleaf

Similiar sentiments as above, during my 24 years I've only been into a Legion <10 times. The one time I found the civilian members w/o any previous service to be less than cordial. Their relevance as an organization is pretty bad when they need to go after another Vets association for something like this. That Halloween fiasco last year did it for me / something they would all rather collectively forget.


----------



## Jarnhamar

If I wanted to write a letter to my local legion regarding my feelings on this and the legions overall image who would I addres it to, the branch manager? I assume they have some type of chain of command.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> If I wanted to write a letter to my local legion regarding my feelings on this and the legions overall image who would I addres it to, the branch manager? I assume they have some type of chain of command.



Send it to the Branch President and ask that it be read aloud, and entered into the minutes, at the next General meeting.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Jimmy_D said:
			
		

> I am surprised they allow the design of veterans plates with poppies on them, with the way they are going. What is the difference between a poppy on you license plate, to a poppy on a patch of a VETERANS bikers club?



The RCL are the ones that give permission, through Dominion Command, for you to be issued the plate. They control it.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

cdnleaf said:
			
		

> Similiar sentiments as above, during my 24 years I've only been into a Legion <10 times. The one time I found the civilian members w/o any previous service to be less than cordial. Their relevance as an organization is pretty bad when they need to go after another Vets association for something like this. That *Halloween fiasco last year *  did it for me / something they would all rather collectively forget.


What was this - I must have been asleep at the wheel.


----------



## Jarnhamar

recceguy said:
			
		

> Send it to the Branch President and ask that it be read aloud, and entered into the minutes, at the next General meeting.



I think this is exactly what I will do. Thank you.


----------



## Danjanou

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> What was this - I must have been asleep at the wheel.



As long as this is a now a "once again the RCL stomped on it's johnson" thread and in the intrest of full disclosure

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/885090--opp-to-probe-kkk-halloween-costume

Now I know why I didn't volunteer to be my branche's PRO.


----------



## FlyingDutchman

That won first place?  The hell?


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Oh my.
My brother works.... let's just say; mid-level at a RCL here in the Ottawa area-I will ask what his thoughts are (about the poppy issue, not the 'other' one).


----------



## jollyjacktar

Whoa!  I missed that one.  They really were dancing on their gear with golf shoes.  I bet they would love to have a "do over" on that one.  Idiots.


----------



## Nemo888

I wish there was an organization that lobbied for Veterans who served after Korea. RCL never stood up for us when the New Veteran's Charter screwed us. They really hung us out to dry. They will not get anything but scorn from me till they have some balls and stand up for Vets.


----------



## FlyingDutchman

The Legion just dropped off our counter top poppy pin, and I just paid for one and put it on out of habit.


----------



## Brasidas

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I wish there was an organization that lobbied for Veterans who served after Korea. RCL never stood up for us when the New Veteran's Charter screwed us. They really hung us out to dry. They will not get anything but scorn from me till they have some balls and stand up for Vets.



I'm sure its shrinking, but what about the Korean Veterans Association?


----------



## Teeps74

The subject of this story is a friend of mine... The Legion does not do a very good job of even sticking up for it's own.

http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=762346



> In 2005, she was elected president - just in time to preside over the historic organization's demise.
> 
> Three months after Raymond's installation as president, the 79-year-old institution that was her new companion collapsed.
> 
> Hobbled by a debt that had swelled beyond $350,000, Branch 9 folded. The charter was surrendered to senior legion officials. The building was closed and all assets sold. More than 400 members, including many who had been No. 9 members for decades, scattered. Some joined another Kingston branch, No. 560. Some quit the legion in disgust.
> 
> Two years after Branch 9 closed, debts and questions linger.
> 
> Raymond, now a 68-year-old pensioner, lives in an apartment with a pet cockatiel named Joey on $1,300 a month.
> 
> She has been told by the Canada Revenue Agency that she's personally responsible for a $40,000 debt that the branch racked up and remains unpaid.



- See the article for more.

I would like to support the Legion, and see them support vets... But alas, I view the Legion as an entity that has lost it's way and reason a very long time ago.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> The subject of this story is a friend of mine... The Legion does not do a very good job of even sticking up for it's own.
> 
> http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?archive=true&e=762346


Ouch.....


----------



## garb811

> May 2007: Former executive members of Branch 9 receive notices from the Canada Revenue Agency saying they may be liable personally for unpaid taxes. Some people get second notices saying they are liable and must begin paying while the cases are under appeal.



This is the scary part for me.  I wonder if it was a flaw in the Charter of that Branch specifically or if this an issue that Legion executives of all Branches are liable for.  If it is the latter...


----------



## dapaterson

garb811 said:
			
		

> This is the scary part for me.  I wonder if it was a flaw in the Charter of that Branch specifically or if this an issue that Legion executives of all Branches are liable for.  If it is the latter...



The officers of any organization can be liable for what it does - something to investigate before taking on a role in any organization.  Many carry liability insurance for the executives, so they won't lose everything if things go bad.


----------



## dogger1936

I've seen these "biker" groups do a lot of great things for soldiers over the years. What really makes me angry is I'm gonna be forced to buy a couple here shortly. It seems a lot less like the symbol of rememberance to my fallen commrades and those who have served before....and a whole lot like a CF/legion forced copyright POS on my uniform.

Thanks for this; I hadnt heard this on the media.

regards


----------



## dogger1936

■A-AD-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Forces Dress Instructions, Chapter 3, Section 7, Paragraph 42

This forces me to support a group I do not want to support. Does anyone else see a problem with this instruction?


----------



## AmmoTech90

Use a non-legion poppy.


----------



## dogger1936

Thats the problem. It clearly states:

*42. The Royal Canadian Legion Poppy.*

The red poppy is an emblem of the RCL and is used to commemorate Canadians who died in battle. CF members shall wear the poppy on all uniforms from the last Friday of October until Remembrance Day (November 11th) and are encouraged to wear it when attending any event whose main purpose is to commemorate Canadians who died in battle.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/oth-aut/rd-js/rd-js-eng.asp

Unfortunately the RCL poppy is the only authorised. We are forced to wear their copyrighted version.


----------



## AmmoTech90

No it doesn't.

It states "the red poppy".  Not "the red poppy distributed through the  RCL's Poppy Fund", nor does it say "the red poppy copyrighted by the RCL shall be worn."

Grow some poppies and wear a new one every day, get someone from the UK to send you one of theirs, make one for arts and crafts, pick one up off the street if you are that adament about not supporting the legion.


----------



## dogger1936

Suggest you re read then. The direction is for the wearing of the Royal Canadian Legion poppy. Hence the title of sec 42. You cant wear a grown poppy, or a Brit poppy (I have a few).


----------



## Lex Parsimoniae

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> ■A-AD-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Forces Dress Instructions, Chapter 3, Section 7, Paragraph 42
> 
> This forces me to support a group I do not want to support. Does anyone else see a problem with this instruction?


You could always take annual leave from the last Friday of October until Remembrance Day.


----------



## dogger1936

Thanks for the great suggestion Lex. 

Edit to remove B/S not needed on a internet forum.


----------



## Occam

The document cited at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/oth-aut/rd-js/rd-js-eng.asp is a Remembrance Day aide-memoire.  I don't know about anyone else, but I would be hesitant to say an aide-memoire dictates policy.

The CF Dress Instructions (Change 6), however, is a policy document - and Chapter 3, Section 7, Paragraph 42 of that document states:

42. The Remembrance Day Poppy.  The
Remembrance Day poppy is authorized to be worn
on all uniforms from the last Friday of October until
Remembrance Day (November 11th). See
Figures 3-7-2, 3-7-3 and 3-7-4. For mess dress,
see Figure 6B1-1, Note 3.  Environmental
commanders may establish guidelines for the wear
of poppies on operational dress other than
described in this publication.

"Authorized to be worn", not "shall be worn".  Has anyone seen anything that trumps CFP 265 on this?


----------



## Towards_the_gap

I'm tempted to see what poo-storm would ensue if I were to wear a RBL poppy, or, one I made myself out of red craft paper, on Monday. Methinks it's not worth the hassle, and would only make an issue out of uniformity vice the relevance/worth of the RCL.

And anyways, the Poppy Fund does go to good causes, at least it's not paying for all those chad medals legion members wear on their right breast.


----------



## Edward Campbell

If you insist upon not supporting the RCL, as a matter of principle, then save your poppy from year-to-year.

I do that, although I buy another one or two every year, because I'm absent minded so, at end Oct I put one on each of two blazers and a suit jacket and on the two or three overcoats/jackets I am most likely to wear. I still _a)_ lose one or two every year and _b)_ manage to wear something on which I have not pre-mounted a poppy.  :-[


----------



## Jarnhamar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Ouch.....



Yea that was a pretty stupid move but even then I'd chalk that up as members (from a small town) being stupid and not really thinking of the greater picture.
This is the second year I've had to tell someone not to wear a certain costume for halloween which they thought was funny but falls under "too soon" and would be in very bad taste to anyone outside the military (and probably a good few inside)
I don't see a legion member wearing a dumb halloween costume as any indicator about the legion as a whole anymore than it would a normal CF mess.


On a different note the Legion sure has some cool swag. 
61 pages  of stuff you can buy.
http://legion.ca/_PDF/Supply/Catalogue_Fall_11_Web_e.pdf

From shirts to stuff to put on tombstones.

side note
I didn't see any box's of Liars Dice.  Anyone know where one would pick one of those up? Fellow at RCR kitshop said they don't have em


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Maybe I am alone but my wearing of a poppy is not a sign that I fully support RCL policies and directives, just as my wearing of my uniform and subsequent oath to the people of Canada means I "agree" with every government decision. I wear the poppy in memory of those who have given their lives before me and if you must know, I wear two; another on the underside of the lapel, out of sight to all but me. That one is for my personal remembrance and is on my uniform 24/7, 365 days a year. I also carry a picture of my dad taken in 1943 on an inside pocket 24/7, 365 but then, that is discussed in another thread.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Maybe I am alone but my wearing of a poppy is not a sign that I fully support RCL policies and directives, just as my wearing of my uniform and subsequent oath to the people of Canada means I "agree" with every government decision. I wear the poppy in memory of those who have given their lives before me  and if you must know, I wear two; another on the underside of the lapel, out of sight to all but me. That one is for my personal remembrance and is on my uniform 24/7, 365 days a year. I also carry a picture of my dad taken in 1943 on an inside pocket 24/7, 365 but then, that is discussed in another thread.



But that is just the point. Canadians (for the most part) do not and never have worn it primarily as an RCL symbol. That is not how the symbol has ever been sold in Remembrance Day marketting, it's never been openly identified as an owned trademark of the RCL that they are selling when they pitch "wear this in Remembrance of those who have fallen" .... and that's why it grates every time the RCL launches a legal attack at someone for using some form of the poppy as a symbol of Remembrance. The RCL's own marketting approach over decades has genericized it to a Canadian symbol of Remembrance, and yet they attack others for embracing that perception and wishing to further honour its role as such a symbol.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> But that is just the point. Canadians (for the most part) do not and never have worn it primarily as an RCL symbol. That is not how the symbol has ever been sold in Remembrance Day marketting, it's never been openly identified as an owned trademark of the RCL that they are selling when they pitch "wear this in Remembrance of those who have fallen" .... and that's why it grates every time the RCL launches a legal attack at someone for using some form of the poppy as a symbol of Remembrance. The RCL's own marketting approach over decades has genericized it to a Canadian symbol of Remembrance, and yet they attack others for embracing that perception and wishing to further honour its role as such a symbol.



Exactly.

Pat I think it's pretty cool that you wear your own as a symbol or personal remembrance.  

How would you feel though if the Legion's lawyers sent you a letter saying you are not allowed to wear a 2nd poppy on the underside of your lapel because it is a copyrighted object and you're wearing it in a manner that it's not intended. 

The RCL takes an object of remembrance and not only turns it into a business but aggressively goes after people who make cookies or CF vets  who use the image-in an act of remembrance.


----------



## jollyjacktar

And that is why Grim I looked at the "swag" from the RCL and said to myself "I would not be caught dead wearing any of it".  I once was a member many years ago, but it will be a cold day in hell before I darken their doorway again.

Great post Michael.


----------



## mikeninercharlie

The only thing that was missing from the Legion's Bling Book...  :


----------



## Pusser

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> On a different note the Legion sure has some cool swag.
> 61 pages  of stuff you can buy.
> http://legion.ca/_PDF/Supply/Catalogue_Fall_11_Web_e.pdf
> 
> From shirts to stuff to put on tombstones.



I wonder if the Legion has permission to use images of the War Memorial or Vimy Ridge monument?  Do they have permission to use the official Canadian Government stylized maple leaf?  I seem to recall reading that organizations need permission to use that maple leaf for commercial ventures.  Selling swag seems to be pretty commercial to me...


----------



## Danjanou

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> And that is why Grim I looked at the "swag" from the RCL and said to myself "I would not be caught dead wearing any of it".



...and yet you'd be surprised who buys all that crap and then proudly pins it to every square millimetre of their Legion Blazer. I swear some District and Zone meetings I think I'm a t a fracking Walmart Greeters Convention.  :brickwall: :brickwall:



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> I wonder if the Legion has permission to use images of the War Memorial or Vimy Ridge monument?  Do they have permission to use the official Canadian Government stylized maple leaf?  I seem to recall reading that organizations need permission to use that maple leaf for commercial ventures.  Selling swag seems to be pretty commercial to me...



now that opens up a nasty idea. >


----------



## Pat in Halifax

I remember the Bluenose Trust in NS going through this a few years back (Trying to 'copyright' the image). I am not sure how it ever panned out though but I do remember reading about the image on the dime. I am kind hoping that the RCL 'higher ups' have seen the light of day here-This is not the only place they are being bladed. As I said, I have a brother working at an Ottawa area Legion and I also have a sister heavily involved in the Legion in Manitoba. I have heard of other issues being raised and a certain amount of discontent.....
...Let's see where this may go.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Lest the Legion get upset over copyright issues, I've updated my Twitter icon with the British Legion's poppy - here's a link if you're interested in doing the same.


----------



## medicineman

mikeninercharlie said:
			
		

> The only thing that was missing from the Legion's Bling Book...  :



It should read "I am"x" years old and still able to remember"

MM


----------



## dogger1936

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> But that is just the point. Canadians (for the most part) do not and never have worn it primarily as an RCL symbol. That is not how the symbol has ever been sold in Remembrance Day marketting, it's never been openly identified as an owned trademark of the RCL that they are selling when they pitch "wear this in Remembrance of those who have fallen" .... and that's why it grates every time the RCL launches a legal attack at someone for using some form of the poppy as a symbol of Remembrance. The RCL's own marketting approach over decades has genericized it to a Canadian symbol of Remembrance, and yet they attack others for embracing that perception and wishing to further honour its role as such a symbol.



Thanks. I think thats what I was trying to say...albeit less coherently and a little more crass.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

November Company, 3 RCR uses the poppy in its logo and colours I wonder if the legion will tell us we need to stop now


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Stymiest said:
			
		

> November Company, 3 RCR uses the poppy in its logo and colours I wonder if the legion will tell us we need to stop now



Not the Legion poppy though


----------



## Greymatters

What alternatives are out there?

Is there a replacement for the poppy, for those who want to wear something to show their support, but not wear a legion poppy?


----------



## mikeninercharlie

On ANZAC Day, the wearing of small sprigs of rosemary in the coat lapel, pinned to the breast or held in place by medals is thus synonymous with remembrance and commemoration. This plant was, in ancient times, supposed to strengthen memory. Greek scholars wore rosemary in their hair to help remember their studies, and the association with remembrance has carried through to modern times. In literature and folklore it is an emblem of remembrance. I may just start something here in Victoria now that I 'm no longer wearing a uniform and rosemary grows in Mrs M9C's garden.


----------



## gun runner

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> No it doesn't.
> 
> It states "the red poppy".  Not "the red poppy distributed through the  RCL's Poppy Fund", nor does it say "the red poppy copyrighted by the RCL shall be worn."
> 
> I have seen many a BSM/RSM get downright irate at a troop not conforming to a dress code that is used by the rest of the unit. It is all or none. Ubique.


----------



## The Bread Guy

mikeninercharlie said:
			
		

> On ANZAC Day, the wearing of small sprigs of rosemary in the coat lapel, pinned to the breast or held in place by medals is thus synonymous with remembrance and commemoration. This plant was, in ancient times, supposed to strengthen memory. Greek scholars wore rosemary in their hair to help remember their studies, and the association with remembrance has carried through to modern times. In literature and folklore it is an emblem of remembrance. I may just start something here in Victoria now that I no longer wearing a uniform and rosemary grows in Mrs M9C's garden.


I could see a Canadian RSM's blood pressure peaking at the sight of that on someone's coat lapel (or even as a fragrant hackle?)....  >


----------



## mikeninercharlie

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I could see a Canadian RSM's blood pressure peaking at the sight of that on someone's coat lapel (or even as a fragrant hackle?)....  >



That would be even more entertaining than going toe to toe with the LOF Command RSM over dress issues, that was like dealing with a mentally retarded monkey wearing blue serge / high browns... I'll now have to determine the specifics of the rosemary sprig to place behind my rather insignificant stand of 11 medals . I do enjoy being a FFC/RSM (flat faced civvy / retired service man) >


----------



## Blackadder1916

Greymatters said:
			
		

> What alternatives are out there?
> 
> Is there a replacement for the poppy, for those who want to wear something to show their support, but not wear a legion poppy?



If you're a Newfoundlander (or anything else, we're not picky) you could wear a "forget-me-not".  I discussed the forget-me-not as a floral symbol of remembrance in another thread. http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/2775/post-889384.html#msg889384


----------



## kstart

The Legion's threat of lawsuits over this-- they'll waste donated funds (meant for support of the troops), it's all a violation of the spirit to things, 'eat their own'.  Perhaps I'll write to the RCL and torture them with one of my long-winded protest letters   I don't see anything wrong with the patch. . .it's very respectful, honouring the spirit of things. . . do they think they own the phrase "remember" too?  It seems like positive actions what the Freedom Riders are about, "Honour and Freedom", "We will remember them" and what a great way to do this, freedom exercised by bike, social, many positive benefits.  The poppy is sacred, the spirit from McRae's poem, that patch is all about respect.


----------



## Journeyman

mikeninercharlie said:
			
		

> ...going toe to toe with the LOF Command RSM over dress issues...


  :rofl:


----------



## 2010newbie

kstart said:
			
		

> The Legion's threat of lawsuits over this-- they'll waste donated funds (meant for support of the troops)



Funds donated for use in the RCL's "Poppy Fund" through poppy sales and community donations cannot and are not used for administrative Legion functions. They are held in Public Trust and can only be used to assist veterans within the community, cadet organizations, and other charitable associations. The entire amount of funds collected is supposed to be used up within that year (meaning they shouldn't be stockpiling poppy funds, they should be using it all up before the end of the fiscal year). If Legions have a build-up of funds and they are approaching year-end, they can send the money to Dominion Command and they will spend it for veterans services in communities that do not generate a lot of money through poppy sales and require additional support. Branches can also choose to send all their money to Dominion Command to be spent in other communities if the veteran presence in theirs is non-existent.

I agree that the approach the RCL has taken with regards to the "cease and desist" letters were the wrong approach and it sends a negative message to the community it is trying to support. Boycotting the poppy is not the right approach in my opinion, the funds raised through poppy sales still go to support good initiatives within the communities. Notifying Dominion Command that they are alienating one of the target demographics they should be trying hard to retain is the message that needs to be sent.

As for not agreeing with RCL branch activities, anything that happens at a branch level is what the branch members have supported to a certain degree. Each branch is run by elected volunteers; the only paid people are usually the bar stewards, and there are general meetings held every month where you can voice your opinion and change how your branch is being run. It is like people complaining about politicians yet they don't turn out to vote. The local branch is a "club" and the club will only be as good as the effort the local members put into running it.


----------



## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :rofl:



C'mon JM we all know you worship these stalwart defenders of the fre world. :whiteflag:


----------



## Danjanou

This is formal note to the RCL from Provincial and Dominion commands that were sent the link to this thread. 

I attended the repatriation service in Toronto for our latest fallen soldier last night you might be interested to know this.  Despite the four hour delay, there was, as always, a large contingent, several dozen, of veterans from bike clubs around Ontario, many who made long journeys to be there. 

Conversely the contingent from the RCL in Blues and Gray, again as almost always was minimal, this time two members, and that's from the 27 branches with a membership in excess of 8,000 in the city. I realize that there may have been others on the bridges, but the disparity in numbers is evident. 

How can you still maintain any credible moral authority over your recent actions and decisions? I do understand the legal ramifications of copyrighting a symbol. That's to ensure some unscrupulous businessman running off a thousand poppy shirts this time of year and counting on the ignorance and the good will of the citizenry to buy them thinking the money goes to a good cause and not his bank account. It is not to attack veterans honouring their own, or even some old lady making cookies as a good will gesture.

By the way the other member present came form her shift poppying at a local mall. She told me she believed it was more important to be there; although she was afraid some in her branch would be upset she missed part of her shift in the mall. I watched quite a few of those bikers drop folded bills in the poppy box even though they were wearing one. She's also been at almost all the repat services as far as I know. She seems to get what's important, perhaps we should make her Dominion President.  :remembrance:


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Danjanou said:
			
		

> This is formal note to the RCL from Provincial and Dominion commands that were sent the link to this thread.
> 
> I attended the repatriation service in Toronto for our latest fallen soldier last night you might be interested to know this.  Despite the four hour delay, there was, as always, a large contingent, several dozen, of veterans from bike clubs around Ontario, many who made long journeys to be there.
> 
> Conversely the contingent from the RCL in Blues and Gray, again as almost always was minimal, this time two members, and that's from the 27 branches with a membership in excess of 8,000 in the city. I realize that there may have been others on the bridges, but the disparity in numbers is evident.
> 
> How can you still maintain any credible moral authority over your recent actions and decisions? I do understand the legal ramifications of copyrighting a symbol. That's to ensure some unscrupulous businessman running off a thousand poppy shirts this time of year and counting on the ignorance and the good will of the citizenry to buy them thinking the money goes to a good cause and not his bank account. It is not to attack veterans honouring their own, or even some old lady making cookies as a good will gesture.
> 
> By the way the other member present came form her shift poppying at a local mall. She told me she believed it was more important to be there; although she was afraid some in her branch would be upset she missed part of her shift in the mall. I watched quite a few of those bikers drop folded bills in the poppy box even though they were wearing one. She's also been at almost all the repat services as far as I know. She seems to get what's important, perhaps we should make her Dominion President.  :remembrance:



Kudos and Milpoints Danjanou. Let's see what kind of response they give............if they give one.


----------



## 2010newbie

recceguy said:
			
		

> Kudos and Milpoints Danjanou. Let's see what kind of response they give............if they give one.



Ditto. I was on one of the overpasses yesterday (Brock Street), and even though I saw a couple of the local Legion executive in attendance (not in Legion uniform) I was disappointed that the Legion Colour party or other members were not there representing the Legion. I will bring this up at the General Meeting tonight and see what kind of response I get.


----------



## jollyjacktar

recceguy said:
			
		

> Kudos and Milpoints Danjanou. Let's see what kind of response they give............if they give one.



Agreed.  Milpoints also awarded by me.  I wrote them a email telling them what I thought of it all when the story broke and as yet I have not received a reply.  Don't expect one honestly.  I am sure they are too high in their marble palaces to hear what we mere mortals have to say.


----------



## Scoobs

I sent an email the first day that I found out about this.  I still have not received a response back, nor do I expect that I will get one.  Frankly, and it is sad, I feel that the Legion no longer represents our interests.


----------



## Danjanou

Thanks for the avalanche of milpoints and comments via PM last night. ironically I was at a Legion meeting and had to turn my BB off as the beeping on new messages was distracting. While this issue did not come up in the meeting, it was a topic of conversation after over a beer or two in the clubroom. Happy to report some people do get it and as Legion members see this action as wrong. Where it goes we will see. I spent my morning poppying as I'd agreed to do and will do again before the 11th.


----------



## FlyingDutchman

While we are on the subject of the poppy, am I the only one finding this batch a bit less durable?  Mine has really been shedding.

Glad to hear that some legion members see this as wrong.


----------



## Strike

I'm just wondering when the RCL is going to start coming after Mike for his poppy emoticon.   :nod:

 :remembrance:


----------



## PMedMoe

Strike said:
			
		

> I'm just wondering when the RCL is going to start coming after Mike for his poppy emoticon.   :nod:
> 
> :remembrance:



Nah.  They ditched the poppy with the green middle a while ago.


----------



## Occam

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Nah.  They ditched the poppy with the green middle a while ago.



Trademark is still active, though.  Application number 0980289.


----------



## PMedMoe

Occam said:
			
		

> Trademark is still active, though.  Application number 0980289.



Curses!  Foiled again!


----------



## Good2Golf

Occam said:
			
		

> Trademark is still active, though.  Application number 0980289.



RCL's Trademark is for a symmetrical, 4-leaf poppy.  Technically, it is TM registration number "TMA586995."  The application number you refer to was to register the earlier red and green design.


Mike's poppy is asymmetrical and has five leaves and thus is not in contravention of the RCL registered trademark.  If folks want to play the game, they have to live by all the rules.


Regards
G2G


----------



## The Bread Guy

Of, if you'd like some variety, there's now the Brit Legion poppy available for iconing....
:brit poppy:


----------



## Michael OLeary

Interestingly, Veterans Affairs isn't using the Legion poppy on their website.

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/veterans-week


----------



## ProudNewfoundlander

Occam said:
			
		

> Is it any wonder the Legion is suffering from a shortage of new members?
> 
> If you'd like to see the offending poppy, go to http://www.cvfr.ca/ and look on the soldier's helmet.  Have a magnifying glass at the ready.
> 
> 
> 
> Shared in accordance with the usual caveats...
> 
> Original link
> 
> Legion tells biker vets: No poppy for you
> 
> By Scott Taylor, QMI Agency
> 
> OTTAWA — The iconic poem In Flanders Fields immortalized the poppy as a symbol of remembrance for Canadian soldiers since the First World War.
> 
> But it's also a registered trademark, owned and so closely guarded by the Royal Canadian Legion that a motorcycle club of veterans isn't allowed to include a small one in its own logo without lawyers threatening legal action.
> 
> Capt. Michael Blow, president of the Canadian Veteran Freedom Riders (CVFR), who devoted 35 years of his life to the military, has one in his club's crest. It's a little difficult to see, but it's there.
> 
> And the Legion doesn't like that one bit.
> 
> They had a law firm send a letter to Blow insisting he and his crew of more than 70 riders and veterans immediately remove the image of the poppy from their logo.
> 
> The letter says, in part:
> 
> "If we do not have a satisfactory reply within two weeks of the date of this letter, we shall recommend to the Legion that it commence immediate legal proceedings."
> 
> The CVFR sometimes raises funds for vets who need help. Blow thought they were all on the same side.
> 
> "I honestly don't know how an organization that continually spouts off about how they respect vets can legally hold a copyright on a symbol of remembrance," he said. "I wear the patch for support and honourary respect of veterans."
> 
> The poppy is certainly not the focal point of the crest, and he said it's modelled after the British version, but it's the principle that irks him the most.
> 
> "For the Legion to turn around and threaten me with litigation because I'm using the poppy is not morally right," he said.
> 
> Legion secretary Bill Maxwell agreed it might not sound fair, but there's a reason for the trademark.
> 
> "Normally, for personal or private logos, we don't authorize use of the poppy. The poppy trademark was registered in 1948 to ensure that it would never be used for commercial or personal gain or used inappropriately."
> 
> He added the image on any logo in the country would most probably not be approved for that reason.
> 
> "That's because it's not being used as a symbol of remembrance, but as part of a logo."
> 
> Blow scoffed at that.
> 
> "Remembrance is the only reason I'm using it," he said.



The legion is mostly a social club for people over 50, anyhow. Im aware they do charity work and whatnot on the national level, but most local legions, especially in rural canada, and especially in atlantic canada are just hangouts for the elderly


----------



## Scott

Is making completely unqualified posts a habit of yours?


----------



## bossi

Okay, team - we have one year to accomplish this task.
At present, Gary Buttman and the NHL won't let teams wear a poppy on their sweaters or helmets
(in contrast to the OHL where teams such as the Kitchener Rangers, Kingston Frontenacs and St Mike's Blues wear special commemorative sweaters which they then auction off for charity - the Rangers sweater in the Memorial Cup a few years back was simply awesome)

http://www.icethetics.info/blog/tag/kitchener-rangers
http://thechlproject.blogspot.com/2010_05_01_archive.html

So far, the only NHL "loophole" has been goalie masks (e.g. Phoenix Coyotes goalie Jason LaBarbera and his yellow ribbon, and Canadiens Cary Price's special Remembrance mask)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/09/phoenix-coyotes-goalie-ja_n_1001887.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18DxSEYO4Nc

P.S. (if the RCL objects to Canadian NHL teams wearing a poppy on their sweaters or helmets, they should ever so politely and respectfully be told the NHL teams wouldn't be doing it to sell tickets - they'd be doing it to honour our fallen ... and last time I checked, the NHL reaches far more households in North America than the RCL ...)


----------



## OldSolduer

Lets get this done troops. 

Bettman made a poor decision, however the Winnipeg Jets had a minute of silence at their game last Thursday. The Montreal Alouettes had  the poppy on their field yesterday.

What's wrong with these people?

Do they not realize that maybe none of us would be playing any kind of sport if it had not been for the efforts of Canada, the UK and the Commonwealth, the USA and others hadn't goen to war with those who would oppress us?
Time for a wake up call, IMO.


----------



## bossi

Two more examples from junior hockey:


----------



## FlyingDutchman

Contact them @ http://www.nhl.com/ice/feedback.htm
Twitter is @nhl
Facebook (mobile version, sorry) http://m.facebook.com/NHL?_rdr

Have to do a bit more digging to find an address to write them at.

Edit: it might be 1251 Avenue Of The Americas, New York, NY 10020


----------



## The Bread Guy

FYI, here's who else weighed in on the European poppy issue:


> Prince William has written to Fifa demanding it lifts the ban on England shirts being embroidered with poppies.
> 
> Fifa decrees that shirts should not carry political, religious or commercial messages.
> 
> But the Duke of Cambridge is "dismayed" by Fifa's stance in this case for Saturday's match against Spain.
> 
> Clarence House said: "The Duke's strong view is the poppy is a universal symbol of remembrance, which has no political, religious or commercial connotations."
> 
> In the letter Prince William, the president of the FA, demands Fifa makes "an exception in this special circumstance". The full contents of letter are being kept private ....


BBC Sports, 9 Nov 11

I wonder what kind of response a letter written to Canadian politicians on this one might garner?  Especially from, say, the Minister of State (Sport) or the Minister for Veterans Affairs?


----------



## bossi

Thanks to FlyingDutchman for the links!

Okay - just to start the fastball rolling ... I got this off my chest
(sent it to NHL "Corporate Marketing", since there wasn't a "NHL Poppy Petition" yet ...)

To:  NHL Corporate Marketing

Why won't you allow Canadian teams to wear a poppy for Remembrance Day?
It's not a political symbol - it's a universal symbol of remembrance for the solders who fought and died for our freedom today.

Most ironically of all, it was an American who first popularized the poppy (not sure why it dropped off in the US, as compared to Canada - just one of those things maybe)

FIFA made the mistake of trying to tell Britain they couldn't wear a poppy - how ironic is that?  We fought and liberated Europe, and then THEY turn around and say we can't remember?  Prince William stepped up to the plate in that discussion, as well as Prime Minster Cameron, but it shouldn't have reached that point - common sense should have intervened ...
("... FIFA had told the football teams of England, Wales and Scotland that they were forbidden to wear an embroidered poppy on their jerseys during their matches. FIFA's ruling upset war veterans, who called it "disgraceful". Prince William, Duke of Cambridge wrote a letter to FIFA demanding that the ban be overturned, stating that the poppy is not political symbol but a symbol of those who have died in war. FIFA has since overturned the ban for all three national teams, allowing them to wear a poppy on black armbands. ...")

If you want other examples, the Memorial Cup in Canada is perhaps the best example of how it works - team such as the Kitchener Rangers and Brandon Wheat Kings wear special commemorative sweaters, which they then auction off for charity.

NHL teams could do the same if they wish, but all I'm asking is that you allow our teams to wear a poppy out of respect for our fallen soldiers - that is NOT too much to ask.

Perhaps the definitive reference to the poppy can be found in the poem "In Flanders Fields".
(an excerpt of which is written on the walls of the Montreal Canadiens dressing room ...)

In Flanders fields the poppies grow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Flanders_Fields

If you don't believe me, please feel free to research the poppy as a symbol of remembrance - the Wikipedia is as good a place as any to start, and you'll find the Australian War Museum a treasure trove of information (ditto for Veterans' Affairs Canada, and of course the Royal Canadian Legion)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_poppy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day

If you have any questions or wish to discuss this further, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thank you,
Mark Bossi, CD
(an Afghanistan veteran, who wears a poppy EVERY Remembrance Day ...)

"I'll wear a little poppy,
As red as red can be,
To show that I remember
Those who fought for me."


----------



## OldSolduer

Have we confirmed that Bettman said NO? We have to be careful - I'd like to see a link where he said no.


----------



## bossi

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Have we confirmed that Bettman said NO? We have to be careful - I'd like to see a link where he said no.


I remember when the issue came up a few years back - haven't got a link at my fingertips.
The NHL simply side-stepped the issue by saying teams had to submit their requests for approval.
(and I've heard since then that the process takes months if the NHL wants to drag their feet, plus the NHL marketing braintrust now have their foot on the throat of franchises when it comes to "marketing" - you may have noticed smarmy NHL phrases appearing on EVERY rink in the NHL, a trend which began after their strike? - ditto for the NHL emblem at the throat of every team's sweaters ... how appropriate ... an NHL symbol at the throat of every player ... but ... I digress ...)

I'm absolutely certain the NHL ruled against at least one request to wear poppies.

We'll need to get the attention of the Canadian franchises, in order for them to submit the "proper" request through "proper" NHL chain of command ... (is there a Smiley for vomiting ...?)

It'd be nice to get Don Cherry onboard later on, once the ball is rolling  and accelerating ...

And, of course, we need fan support across Canada (wouldn't hurt to get some support from the US, too ... who knows? ... maybe we might be able to re-introduce the poppy to the Yanks?)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Have we confirmed that Bettman said NO? We have to be careful - I'd like to see a link where he said no.


Good question - I'd be happy to be corrected, but I've spent the better part of my lunch break Google-fu'ing, and found no open source primary or secondary reference along these lines.  In fact, the NHL itself suggests clubs can commemorate as they see fit - what the bit in yellow means exactly is not clear here (although I think it means wearing of poppy pins):


> .... Remembrance Day was initially dedicated days before the one-year anniversary of the armistice signed to end the first World War on Nov. 11, 1918. Since then, the day has served as a reminder for those individuals who have put themselves in the line of fire in that conflict and all those since so we can enjoy as simple a pleasure as watching a hockey game.
> 
> To say that the sacrifices made by those who served in World War I, World War II and any global conflict after that makes a the game on the ice seem trivial is an understatement.
> 
> That sentiment is hardly lost on the players or the teams playing the game, and each year the NHL and its member clubs have made a conscious effort to pay respect and tribute to those who defend us. This year is no different, as clubs across the League are honoring veterans with various initiatives and ceremonies.
> 
> *The most prominent dedication will be the wearing of poppies across the League. *This annual tradition originates from the words of Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae, a Canadian doctor serving in World War I who wrote the remarkable poem "In Flanders Fields" on May 3, 1915 in testament to the carnage of the Second Battle of Ypres in Belgium during World War I. It is widely believed that he wrote the poem after witnessing the death of his friend the day before ....



Here's what some teams have done with uniforms, according to the same source:


> .... Anaheim: The Ducks are hosting a Military Appreciation Night on Friday, during which fans will get American flags. *Players will wear camouflage jerseys during warm-ups* and wrap sticks in camouflage tape.
> 
> Boston: The Bruins are hosting a Military Appreciation Night on Nov. 15 against New Jersey. The team will *raffle off camouflage warm-up jerseys* and camouflage-taped sticks in addition to honoring veterans throughout the game. The Bruins also recently visited the New England Center for Homeless Veterans.
> 
> Buffalo: The Sabres will honor members of the armed forces and veterans from all over Western New York as well as collect donations for the WNY Heroes Organization. The team will also be *auctioning off camouflage warm-up jerseys for charity*. Chris Kreiger, the founder of WNY, will receive the Purple Heart before the game. The team is also hosting on-ice hockey clinics for wounded veterans.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Chicago: The *Blackhawks will wear camouflage warm-ups for the third straight year, which will later be auctioned off*. The team will host an official enlistment ceremony for all branches of the armed forces during the first intermission.
> 
> NY Islanders: The Islanders held Military Appreciation Night on Nov. 5, during which *the team wore camouflage warmups*, honored veterans throughout the game and specifically recognized veterans who had received the Purple Heart.
> 
> (....)
> 
> San Jose: *The Sharks wore camouflage warmups at the morning skate on Nov. 5 before their game against the Nashville Predators. The jerseys were autographed and are being sold via blind auction, with proceeds benefitting San Jose area-based military charities* ....


----------



## ballz

The NHL could get the pants sued off them if they had the RCL's trademark on their franchise's jerseys without permission. I am guessing that if they could do it for free, it would already have been done.

I would guess that the issue has been bargained for behind closed doors, and the Legion probably expects a high price from such a high-profile, profitable business. And I don't blame them for trying to raise some money by doing so. It would be interesting to know what kind of offers have been made / declined, etc, but we'll probably never know that stuff.

But this is all entirely speculation/guesswork on my part.

However, if the public starts putting pressure on the NHL, then it might force the RCL to accept a reasonable price if the headlines change from "Bettman says no to poppies on Nov 11" to "RCL turns down $X,000,000 offer from NHL for poppy rights."


----------



## Edward Campbell

Hockey teams, like Ottawa, regularly trot out _heritage_ sweaters (I'm one of those who believes that _The Hockey Sweater_ is the correct translation of _"Le chandail de hockey"_ and that Roch Carrier gets the last word on the subject) so I guess there's no reason they, at least the Canadian teams, couldn't trot out "remembrance" sweaters for wear during the two weeks leading up to 11 Nov.  If the poppy is going to be a problem then design something suitable without the damned thing.

Maybe it's the Canadian teams, not Bettman and the league who should be targeted.







Paul Kitchen, left, hockey historian, and Jacob Barrette, designer, with the new heritage
*sweater* developed for the Ottawa Senators.
Photograph by: BRUNO SCHLUMBERGER, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> .... If the Legion pattern poppy is going to be a problem then design something suitable without the damned thing ....


With the bit in yellow, it opens up the potential to use a significantly different enough poppy if that's what the teams want.


----------



## ballz

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Hockey teams, like Ottawa, regularly trot out _heritage_ sweaters (I'm one of those who believes that _The Hockey Sweater_ is the correct translation of _"Le chandail de hockey"_ and that Roch Carrier gets the last word on the subject) so I guess there's no reason they, at least the Canadian teams, couldn't trot out "remembrance" sweaters for wear during the two weeks leading up to 11 Nov.  If the poppy is going to be a problem then design something suitable without the damned thing.
> 
> Maybe it's the Canadian teams, not Bettman and the league who should be targeted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul Kitchen, left, hockey historian, and Jacob Barrette, designer, with the new heritage
> *sweater* developed for the Ottawa Senators.
> Photograph by: BRUNO SCHLUMBERGER, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN



The business side of it is that those trademarks (heritage logos, etc) belong to the NHL, so all the team has to do is run it through the league, and the NHL gets "x" amount from every product sold (probably already a set percentage/royalty in the Franchisor/Franchisee contract).

Now, they could make a "remembrance" jersey but I'm not sure how they would design it. If they use a non-trademarked design of the poppy the optics would be that they didn't want to pay any money to the RCL and just want to profit off the occasion. If they don't use a poppy at all well... I just don't know how you could pull that off.

I am surprised that something hasn't been worked out anyway. I'm surprised I've never noticed it before.


----------



## 2010newbie

I was at the "Remembrance Day" game (Nov 8th) in Toronto and they utilized the poppy symbol on the ice during the pre-game and there were RCL members at every gate distributing poppies. They also reminded people to purchase and wear poppies to show their support over the public address system. The Leafs are avid supporters of the CF and provide a lot of support to the Military Families Fund through the sales of their "camo" merchandise (25% of sales goes to the MFF) and through "Luke's Troops". If any team could get the NHL/RCL support you would think MLSE could. 

What about instead of modifying the jersey, the players stick the RCL's poppy sticker (for people with leather jackets and for kids) on their helmets? You see these with other pink ribbon's and such and it wouldn't involve a jersey re-design. When I was distributing poppies this year a parent came up to me to try and get a bunch of the stickers for his son's hockey team to place on their helmets.


----------



## OldSolduer

I ahve seen NHL hockey players sporting pink laces, CFL players with pink gloves and pink ribbon stickers on their helmets etc. To the credit of the Als and Tic Cats - they had the poppy symbol on their helmets.

I can't see why the RCL would be so against this.


----------



## bossi

Awesome.  Focussing solely on the issue of wearing the poppy, I did speak to the manufacturer of the Kitchener Ranger sweaters (i.e. when I asked him if I could get some poppies for our Regimental team, he said he'd have to get permission from The Legion - I trust him to have told me the truth)

Having said all of the above (and agreeing with virtually all of everybody's contributions ...) it never dawned on me that the NHL might be refusing to let teams wear the poppy because of extortion ... er, um ... back room discussions with The Legion ... but, a propos to the Legion's refusal to let those biker veterans include a poppy in their crest ... it's all starting to make more sense ...

At least we've got almost an entire year to get all parties on the same page ...
(i.e. "Selection and Maintenance of The Aim" - get poppies on to NHL uniforms!)


----------



## ballz

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I ahve seen NHL hockey players sporting pink laces, CFL players with pink gloves and pink ribbon stickers on their helmets etc. To the credit of the Als and Tic Cats - they had the poppy symbol on their helmets.
> 
> I can't see why the RCL would be so against this.



The colour "pink" isn't trademarked. I doubt the ribbons are trademarked either, but they might be. Either way, the big factor, I think, would be the amount of money the NHL has versus CFL and junior hockey.

It's not that the RCL is against it, but compared to the CFL and Tier I Junior hockey teams, the NHL is a hell of a lot more profitable (we're talking by a factor of 100 or more) and the RCL probably (rightfully) expects them to pay a lot more. 

Also, I'm pretty sure the players wouldn't be allowed to put the poppy stickers on their helmets for the same reasons. Everything is different when it's businesses and not individuals. Don't think for a second that the RCL couldn't demand that any company that any of normal joe works for not allow their employees to wear poppy's while working / wearing that company's uniform or else be sued. I can't think of any company with a bad enough reputation that the RCL would do that, but that's beyond the point.

Trademarks are a big deal, and anybody that owns a trademark has to protect it or they lose it.



			
				bossi said:
			
		

> Awesome.  Focussing solely on the issue of wearing the poppy, I did speak to the manufacturer of the Kitchener Ranger sweaters (i.e. when I asked him if I could get some poppies for our Regimental team, he said he'd have to get permission from The Legion - I trust him to have told me the truth)



He was telling the truth.


----------



## bossi

ballz said:
			
		

> ... It's not that the RCL is against it, but compared to the CFL and Tier I Junior hockey teams, the NHL is a hell of a lot more profitable (we're talking by a factor of 100 or more) and the RCL probably (rightfully) expects them to pay a lot more. ...



So, in other words ... rather than obtain exposure coast to coast on Hockey Night in Canada, the Legion would rather cut off their nose to spite their face?  Yup - time for a regime change.


----------



## ballz

bossi said:
			
		

> So, in other words ... rather than obtain exposure coast to coast on Hockey Night in Canada, the Legion would rather cut off their nose to spite their face?  Yup - time for a regime change.



The Legion doesn't need exposure coast to coast, everybody coast to coast already recognizes the poppy for what it is.

It needs money though...

You can't point the finger at anybody without knowing the details. If there were/are any offers on the table, you'd need to know what they were. Let's say the CFL pays $10,000 to use the poppy each year around Nov 11. The CFL has annual revenues at best of $150 million/year*. The NHL has annual revenues of 2.7 billion/year**. So by that precedent the NHL should be paying $180,000. What if they are only offering to pay the same as the CFL? If I were the Legion, looking out for the Legion's interests, I'd tell 'em to go pound sand. 

*http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/09/04/fan-support-solid-revenues-mean-bright-future-for-cfl/
**http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2010/06/20100628/This-Weeks-News/NHL-Expects-Total-Revenue-To-Top-$27B.aspx


----------



## bossi

ballz said:
			
		

> The Legion doesn't need exposure coast to coast, everybody coast to coast already recognizes the poppy for what it is.
> 
> It needs money though...



Fascinating perspective.  Personally, I wouldn't view the CFL or NHL as "using" the poppy.
Instead, I'd view it as honouring our fallen.
And, it the Legion is receiving zero dollars from the NHL at present ... it would seem fair to me that if the NHL teams wore commemorative sweaters, then auctioned them off like the Jr "A" teams and donated the proceeds to the Legion ... fair's fair.
The additional benefit to the Legion would be kids at home watching their NHL teams wearing the poppy (i.e. some kids look up to the NHL players, thus it would be positive reinforcement for the poppy)
Sorry to disagree with your well-presented financial analysis, however I thought it would be a "win-win" situation if the NHL teams wore the poppy (i.e. the poppy would be visible for the entire game, as opposed to only during the opening ceremony, and if the teams wore them for Remembrance Week it would mean multiple games - again, a huge step forward instead of the present zero sum - plus, the sweaters could then be auctioned off with the proceeds becoming "found money" for the Legion)


----------



## ballz

bossi said:
			
		

> Fascinating perspective.  Personally, I wouldn't view the CFL or NHL as "using" the poppy.
> Instead, I'd view it as honouring our fallen.
> And, it the Legion is receiving zero dollars from the NHL at present ... it would seem fair to me that if the NHL teams wore commemorative sweaters, then auctioned them off like the Jr "A" teams and donated the proceeds to the Legion ... fair's fair.
> The additional benefit to the Legion would be kids at home watching their NHL teams wearing the poppy (i.e. some kids look up to the NHL players, thus it would be positive reinforcement for the poppy)
> Sorry to disagree with your well-presented financial analysis, however I thought it would be a "win-win" situation if the NHL teams wore the poppy (i.e. the poppy would be visible for the entire game, as opposed to only during the opening ceremony, and if the teams wore them for Remembrance Week it would mean multiple games - again, a huge step forward instead of the present zero sum - plus, the sweaters could then be auctioned off with the proceeds becoming "found money" for the Legion)



You're looking at it as "any revenue is good revenue" and while you're right, if the Legion sells itself short then there's a lot of potential revenue lost for no good reason.

Your example of auctioning off jerseys. 30 teams * ~25/players * ~150/jersey = 112,500. That is pennies for a $2.7 billion business. They would only be donating the jerseys (at a fraction of that 112,500), the fans would be donating the auction money.

Only squeezing a fraction of $112,500 from a $2.7 billion business to use your extremely recognizable trademark is _terrible_ business. That's the same as me donating 83 cents, and I donated $5.00 from my miniscule Officer-Cadet salary. So if I were a member of a financially-struggling RCL, I'd be asking for a regime change if that was the deal that was bargained for on my behalf.



			
				bossi said:
			
		

> The additional benefit to the Legion would be kids at home watching their NHL teams wearing the poppy



Unfortunately warm fuzzy feelings can't be measured in dollars.




I'm going to take this time to reiterate that I would *love* to see a deal brokered between the RCL and the NHL that meant all the NHL players wore a poppy on their jerseys for the week leading up to Nov 11. I am just trying to bring some perspective on the possible complications before anybody goes blaming Bettman or the RCL.

EDIT: To add an analogy


----------



## Fishbone Jones

They should just sidestep the whole dollar\ copyright\ RCL issue and design their own poppy for use on their jerseys. Then it's not commercial, religious or political. Just their's.

Why get the RCL involved at all?

No one (signifigant) is going to stand up and rag on them for not using the commercial copyrighted poppy.


----------



## Edward Campbell

recceguy said:
			
		

> They should just sidestep the whole dollar\ copyright\ RCL issue and design their own poppy for use on their jerseys. Then it's not commercial, religious or political. Just their's.
> 
> Why get the RCL involved at all?
> 
> No one (signifigant) is going to stand up and rag on them for not using the commercial copyrighted poppy.




I agree - no need for the RCL's _copyrighted_ poppy ... but I'm still not convinced that lobbying the NHL, _per se_, is the best route. Remembrance Day and the poppy are uniquely Canadian things; the US has "Veterans' Day" on 11 Nov - an event which has a quite different focus (their Memorial Day is in the spring); they do not wear the poppy in the USA; thus, poppies on NHL team sweaters would only apply to the Canadians teams. Should we not, therefore, write to them (_Canucks, Flames, Oilers, Jets, Maple Leafs, Senators_ and _Canadiens_)  suggesting that they plan something next year, for the two weeks leading up to 11 Nov, to honour our war dead, something in addition to the things most teams already do to honour veterans?


----------



## Pusser

Here's something.  What if each individual player went out on his own and bought a Legion copyrighted poppy -(just like anyone else) and then chose to wear it on their jersey (remove the pin and stitch it on).  Could the Legion do anything about that?  How different would that be from every CF member buying and wearing one?  The CF certainly doesn't pay any royalties to the Legion.


----------



## ballz

Pusser said:
			
		

> Here's something.  What if each individual player went out on his own and bought a Legion copyrighted poppy -(just like anyone else) and then chose to wear it on their jersey (remove the pin and stitch it on).  Could the Legion do anything about that?  How different would that be from every CF member buying and wearing one?  The CF certainly doesn't pay any royalties to the Legion.



Yes, the Legion could do something about that. It is a registered trademark, and they reserve the legal right to stop anybody from wearing it if they believe it would "tarnish" the trademark. The Legion could stop YOU or anyone of us from wearing a poppy if they so choose. It is their property.

What if some alleged serial killer/rapist was currently on trial for his crimes and was wearing a poppy to and from court, and was being photographed and shown on national media wearing *your* trademark. You would probably want to take legal action against him to stop him from being associated with you and your organization. What if he was wearing a Toronto Maple Leafs hat on his way to court? The Leafs would probably have a lawyer send him a letter saying "you better stop wearing that hat to your court appearances, or we're going to take legal action," because quite frankly the Leafs wouldn't want their symbol, their name, associated an alleged serial killer/rapist.

The fact that an NHL player buys his own individual poppy becomes irrelevant when he puts it on his uniform (after all, that's what a hockey jersey is) next to another registered trademark that the Legion may or may not want to be associated with. I am sure you will see lots of video images of players arriving at the rink with a poppy on their blazer, and the RCL won't do anything/care. But the game changes completely when they wear it next to another registered trademark (that franchise's logo).

The Legion doesn't stop CF members from wearing a poppy, but it *could* if it decided it did not want it's trademark associated with CF members. The Legion doesn't ask for money from the CF for obvious reasons.


I suppose I've spouted off about trademarks enough that I should back up what I am saying. Everything I am saying is from memory of what I learned in my Business Law course in the chapter about trademarks, etc. I am now going to get it back from the person I lent it to last semester and skim through it, to make sure I'm not misremembering info.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Pusser said:
			
		

> Here's something.  What if each individual player went out on his own and bought a Legion copyrighted poppy -(just like anyone else) and then chose to wear it on their jersey (remove the pin and stitch it on).  Could the Legion do anything about that?  How different would that be from every CF member buying and wearing one?  The CF certainly doesn't pay any royalties to the Legion.


The other side of the coin would be:  would players be allowed, under the league's rules, to sew stuff onto their jerseys?  Here's what the rules I can find say:


> .... All players of each team shall be dressed *uniformly* with *approved design and color* of their helmets, sweaters, short pants, stockings and skates ....


It sounds like someone in the league hierarchy would have to give the approval for a uniform design.  That's another reason why it might make sense to find team-wide solutions, rather than having individual players alter their kit (apparently) against the rules.


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## ballz

So I got my textbook ("The Law and Business Administration in Canada"12th Ed, by Smyth, Soberman, Easson, and McGill) and it seems the NHL has been into a legal battle over this kind of thing before.


"Section 19 of the (Trade-marks) Act gives the owner of a valid registered trademark the exclusive right to its use throughout Canada in respect of the goods and services for which it was registered. No unauthorized person may then sell, distribute, or *advertise* any goods or services in association with a confusing trademark or trade name (section 20), or otherwise use the mark in a manner that is likely to have the effect of depreciating the value of the goodwill attached to it (section 22)."

^^^See "advertise" above. That's exactly what the NHL would be doing if they had poppies on their jerseys. "Advertising" the poppy.

For this next bit, "passing off" is an offence under Tort law, meaning you can be sued for financial damages. But you don't have to have your trademark registered to sue someone for "passing off." However, what they are saying is that if you do have it registered, you don't need to meet the requirements of "passing off" to sue them.

"Actions for Infringement
Unauthorized use
One major advantage of registration is that unlike passing off, *a registered trademark may be infringed by any unauthorized use of that mark or a confusingly similar mark by some other person"*

Now, the NHL's past experience:

"In some recent cases, plaintiffs have argued that the definition of passing-off should be expanded to include situations where one person makes use of a well-known trade name or mark in order to obtain a benefit, even though the owner cannot show any damage and there is no likelihood of confusion in the minds of the public.12 To date, this view has had only limited success in the courts and the argument is more effective under the statutory causes of action."

12. In rare circumstances when the passing-off deliberately suggests an association with another's product, it may not be necessary to show damage. For Example, an advertising campaign that incorrectly associates a product with another's product may actually benefit that other product, but might still amount to passing-off: see_ National Hockey League_ v._ Pepsi-Cola Canada Ltd._ (1995(, 122 D.L.R (4th) 412.




Key words up there, "a confusingly similar mark." You are going to have a hard time creating an image of a poppy, no matter how you alter it, and putting it on jerseys on Nov 11, and it not being considered "confusingly similar" to the RCL's registered trademark.


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## 2010newbie

ballz said:
			
		

> Key words up there, "a confusingly similar mark." You are going to have a hard time creating an image of a poppy, no matter how you alter it, and putting it on jerseys on Nov 11, and it not being considered "confusingly similar" to the RCL's registered trademark.



Has there actually been a decision from RCL that states the NHL cannot use the Poppy during Remembrance Day? Has the NHL even asked? As opposed to continuing with assumptions, shouldn't efforts be directed towards petitioning the NHL or specific teams to adorn their helmets (sweaters, Jerseys, skates, whatever) with the poppy during the two weeks prior to Remembrance Day as opposed to coming up with excuses as to why the RCL "might" say no?

As I posted earlier, MLSE used the Poppy image, displayed on the ice, during the Remembrance Day game this year and I have yet to hear of any report stating the RCL is sending "cease and desist" letters to MLSE either.

Here's the video of the pre-game and you can see the RCL Poppy symbol being shown on the ice (yes, I know they show other poppies as well, but the one on the ice is clearly the RCL poppy):

http://video.mapleleafs.nhl.com/videocenter/console

You need to scroll through the videos at the bottom of the page to the video titled "Remembrance Day Tribute - 11/08/2011". The videos are chronological so it shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Here's a link to the CBC discussing the Poppy sticker which I think we should try and get on the players helmets (and also the one shown on the ice in the video above):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2008/11/05/poppy-stickers.html

And a link to the Legion website showing the same poppy:

http://www.legion.ca/Poppy/campaign_e.cfm

Again, I think our interests would be better served by contacting the individual teams and requesting the sticker be placed on the helmets. I have a contact with MLSE that I have used before for some TMFRC fundraising, so I will contact him tomorrow.

Edited to Add:

Here's a link to an image of the "Pink Ribbon" helmets and the Leafs (as well as most other NHL teams) participate in each year:

http://media.fans.nhl.com/_Hockeys-Cancer-Fight-Hits-Close-to-Home/BLOG/393687/111820.html


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## ballz

2010newbie said:
			
		

> Has there actually been a decision from RCL that states the NHL cannot use the Poppy during Remembrance Day? Has the NHL even asked? As opposed to continuing with assumptions, shouldn't efforts be directed towards petitioning the NHL or specific teams to adorn their helmets (sweaters, Jerseys, skates, whatever) with the poppy during the two weeks prior to Remembrance Day as opposed to coming up with excuses as to why the RCL "might" say no?



There's not much info on it. I'm not "continuing with assumptions" or "making excuses" for anybody, I am pointing out that it is not as simple as you seem to think it is (such as making a "different" poppy, or "well they put pink ribbons on there so they must be able to put poppies on there"). You're right, efforts should be directed towards lobbying, but not knowing the issues surrounding what you're lobbying for isn't going to make your lobbying efforts very effective or efficient.



			
				2010newbie said:
			
		

> As I posted earlier, MLSE used the Poppy image, displayed on the ice, during the Remembrance Day game this year and I have yet to hear of any report stating the RCL is sending "cease and desist" letters to MLSE either.



Apples and melons. The ACC does not belong to the NHL and whatever authorization / deal that was worked out between MLSE and the RCL has absolutely no bearing on any talks between MLSE and RCL. You didn't hear about any cease and desist letters, but you also didn't hear about what deal was struck or how much MLSE had to pay to the RCL to put the poppy there either, did you?



			
				2010newbie said:
			
		

> Again, I think our interests would be better served by contacting the individual teams and requesting the sticker be placed on the helmets. I have a contact with MLSE that I have used before for some TMFRC fundraising, so I will contact him tomorrow.



Individual teams are franchises, governed by the franchisor which is the NHL. They can't put a registered trademark on their helmet without the NHL's permission (as was already pointed out). The NHL can't give them permission to do it without permission from the RCL (as was already pointed out).



			
				2010newbie said:
			
		

> Here's a link to an image of the "Pink Ribbon" helmets and the Leafs (as well as most other NHL teams) participate in each year:



That has *nothing* to do with the RCL and it's trademarks. The pink ribbon, which according to Wikipedia (it has a citation but it's not working at the moment) in most places is considered public domain, although in Canada it's "a special form of trademark reserved for governmental and charitable organizations." Either way, what organization XYZ chooses to do with it's trademarks is completely irrelevant to what company ZYX chooses to do with it's trademarks.


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## 2010newbie

ballz said:
			
		

> Apples and melons. The ACC does not belong to the NHL and whatever authorization / deal that was worked out between MLSE and the RCL has absolutely no bearing on any talks between MLSE and RCL. You didn't hear about any cease and desist letters, but you also didn't hear about what deal was struck or how much MLSE had to pay to the RCL to put the poppy there either, did you?



Point is that a relationship must exist, so it is feasible to request that relationship be extended and the players wear the poppies for the two weeks. You, nor I, are capable of determining what type of financial remuneration be provided or negotiated for the use of the poppy that would be acceptable to both the RCL and MLSE/NHL. For all we know, MLSE was allowed to use it for free as long as Legion members could distribute poppies at the gates. We don't know and it is irrelevant to this discussion.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> Individual teams are franchises, governed by the franchisor which is the NHL. They can't put a registered trademark on their helmet without the NHL's permission (as was already pointed out).



As milnews.ca already pointed out from the nhl.com article, the NHL supports the wearing of poppies:



> The most prominent dedication will be the wearing of poppies across the League.



And as you saw during the two week time period, many of the coaching staff wore poppies and many teams held some sort of tribute during that time frame.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> That has *nothing* to do with the RCL and it's trademarks.



I'm not suggesting that because the pink ribbon has been displayed that the RCL would give permission. The point is that similar events have happened in the past to raise awareness and the teams/NHL have supported them.

Again, the point is that we should do something to try and get whoever needs to be involved to agree to have the players wear some sort of poppy during the two weeks leading up to Remembrance Day. I'm following Bossi's lead and contacting MLSE to try and find out additional info on how we implement this. Here's what I sent to MLSE:



> A discussion has come up between some current serving military and some veterans regarding the NHL and the player's wearing the "Poppy" in the lead up to Remembrance Day. Understandably, players could not wear the typical lapel poppy with a straight pin, but the Royal Canadian Legion also distributes poppy stickers that could be adhered to helmets in a similar fashion that the "Pink Ribbons" have been in the past (http://media.fans.nhl.com/_Hockeys-Cancer-Fight-Hits-Close-to-Home/BLOG/393687/111820.html).
> 
> As the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, would you be the person we would discuss this with to try and have this implemented for next year?
> 
> Thanks,


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## ballz

2010newbie said:
			
		

> Point is that a relationship must exist, so it is feasible to request that relationship be extended and the players wear the poppies for the two weeks. You, nor I, are capable of determining what type of financial remuneration be provided or negotiated for the use of the poppy that would be acceptable to both the RCL and MLSE/NHL. For all we know, MLSE was allowed to use it for free as long as Legion members could distribute poppies at the gates. We don't know and it is irrelevant to this discussion.



Really? The legal topics surrounding the ability to wear the poppy is irrelevant? I'm not sure what it's like in Imagination Land but in the real world you have to conduct your business according to the law. It's not the least bit irrelevant if the NHL is offering $1 to put poppies on all their jersey and the RCL wants $1,000,000.... Actually, if the case is that they can't agree on a deal, then that is pretty much the only relevant topic.



			
				2010newbie said:
			
		

> the NHL supports the wearing of poppies:
> 
> And as you saw during the two week time period, many of the coaching staff wore poppies and many teams held some sort of tribute during that time frame.
> 
> The point is that similar events have happened in the past to raise awareness and the teams/NHL have supported them.



Then that should be your first clue that there is a dispute somewhere between the RCL and the NHL, if the NHL "supports" wearing the poppy but won't allow players to do so while they're wearing their uniforms.




			
				2010newbie said:
			
		

> Again, the point is that we should do something to try and get whoever needs to be involved to agree to have the players wear some sort of poppy during the two weeks leading up to Remembrance Day. I'm following Bossi's lead and contacting MLSE to try and find out additional info on how we implement this. Here's what I sent to MLSE:



Yes, we should pressure the NHL and RCL (the two parties who "need to be involved") to come to some sort of agreement. Understanding the actual problem sure isn't going hurt that cause. I would suggest, in your efforts and having a contact, you try and find out what the actual issue is (the OP doesn't even have a source for Bettman or the NHL not allowing the poppies), instead of just trying make a lot of noise.


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## Fishbone Jones

Like I said. Don't use the legion poppy. Make your own.

No need to involve the legion in any of it. They don't deserve the research and discussion your giving them.

Let them stew, suffer and facepalm themselves for letting a public relations coup slip through their fingers.


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## ballz

recceguy said:
			
		

> Like I said. Don't use the legion poppy. Make your own.
> 
> No need to involve the legion in any of it. They don't deserve the research and discussion your giving them.
> 
> Let them stew, suffer and facepalm themselves for letting a public relations coup slip through their fingers.



That would most likely still be considered infringement

"Actions for Infringement
Unauthorized use
One major advantage of registration is that unlike passing off, *a registered trademark may be infringed by any unauthorized use of that mark or a confusingly similar mark by some other person"*"

Using "your own poppy" on Nov 11 would easily be considered a "confusingly similar mark." If they were going to go that route, I am guessing they would have to avoid the poppy altogether. And I'm not sure how you could make a good Remembrance Day sweater without some form of the poppy.


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## GAP

Simple....use the Support the Troops ribbon......everybody recognizes them.....


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## ballz

GAP said:
			
		

> Simple....use the Support the Troops ribbon......everybody recognizes them.....



Agreed, and I think they would have to incorporate that, into the jersey if they didn't have the poppy... but I don't see the yellow ribbon as a symbol of remembrance, can't speak for anybody else though.


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## Fishbone Jones

ballz said:
			
		

> That would most likely still be considered infringement
> 
> "Actions for Infringement
> Unauthorized use
> One major advantage of registration is that unlike passing off, *a registered trademark may be infringed by any unauthorized use of that mark or a confusingly similar mark by some other person"*"
> 
> Using "your own poppy" on Nov 11 would easily be considered a "confusingly similar mark." If they were going to go that route, I am guessing they would have to avoid the poppy altogether. And I'm not sure how you could make a good Remembrance Day sweater without some form of the poppy.



Well, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I profess to play one here, or on television.

IMHO, while your argument _might_ have _some_ legal basis to it, they (RCL) don't have the ballz to use it. (see what i did there  ) It would amount to corporate public relations suicide.

If that _were_ the case, why haven't they gone against all other representations, including the white ones they are so vehement about? What you're basically saying is, no one, not one person or entity, anywhere in Canada, can reproduce a poppy in any configuration.

I call:


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## ballz

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, I'm not a lawyer, nor do I profess to play one here, or on television.
> 
> IMHO, while your argument _might_ have _some_ legal basis to it, they (RCL) don't have the ballz to use it. (see what i did there  ) It would amount to corporate public relations suicide.
> 
> If that _were_ the case, why haven't they gone against all other representations, including the white ones they are so vehement about? What you're basically saying is, no one, not one person or entity, anywhere in Canada, can reproduce a poppy in any configuration.
> 
> I call:



You can call it bullshit all you want. I actually have an education in this field, and I learned this from a professional lawyer, and I am quoting a current Business Law textbook. I also finished this course above a 90%, so that lawyer doesn't think I am full of crap. My "argument" (which it is not, it's merely a bit of perspective on the issue) does have a ton of legal basis to it.

I am not sure why you find it so unbelievable, considering the recent happenings with the motorcycle group. http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103106.0

"A spokesman for the Legion said this rule has been around for 60 years. Every group must legitimately apply to use the poppy, which he said this group has not."

"Martin added unscrupulous organizations are using the poppy on a consistent basis and the Legion has had to be much more active. He said if one organization is allowed to use the poppy, the flood gates would open for other groups." (Like I said, trademarks must be protected or you lose it)

I am not sure why you think it would be different for the NHL. The Legion still has to protect it's trademark.



And the RCL did threaten legal action against people producing white poppies. http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/white-news1.html

"It arrived in an envelope, in the form of a legal threat. The Royal Canadian Legion was demanding that we stop making white poppies available in Canada, or else. That was the gist, though expressed in more formal language. According to the RCL’s legal representatives, the white poppy infringes the Legion’s poppy trademark. We have sent a lengthy reply."

"It was the enthusiastic promotion of white poppies by Women in Black and Earth's General Store in Edmonton that caught the Canadian Legion’s eye. The threat of legal action against Earth's General Store brought the issue of white poppies to a much wider Canadian audience."


The trademark is for a "red" poppy with a black or green center (the links are provided on the other thread). That said, a pink poppy with a black centre would definitely be "confusingly similar." Earth's General Store subsequently decided not to continue producing white poppies, so it's not possible to predict how that would have ended up in court.


You're right on one thing though, the RCL doesn't have to go after the NHL legally. They could give them permission to do it, no big deal at all. But personally I'd rather collect some coin from a 2.7 billion dollar business.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> What you're basically saying is, no one, not one person or entity, anywhere in Canada, can reproduce a poppy in any configuration.



No, RG, that is not what I am saying. I am just quoting Trade-marks Act. It would be up to a judge, if it ever got that far, to determine if any particular configuration of a poppy is "confusingly similar."


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## Tyson Fox

Is it really that big of a deal that NHL teams wear a poppy on their jerseys? Sure, they should be allowed to in a perfect world, but it's between them and the legion to sort it out. It seems like a really trivial thing to bicker about.


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## Fishbone Jones

Which is why lawyers will follow politicians to the wall, when the revolution comes


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