# Be in shape when you arrive on course...



## vonGarvin (30 May 2010)

...or else.
This past week, a number of candidates for various courses at the Infantry School all conducted their CF Expres Test.  In total 9 candidates failed the test, and all 9 were ceased training for failing to meet the prerequisite of meeting the MPFS.  
The message is clear: meet the standard, or go home.  There is no chance to have a "do over", and doing 18 of 19 pushups is not "good enough".

Yes, one of those sent home passed all individual tests, less pushups.  He got 18 of the required 19.  

Also, remember that it's not just a number you have to do, it's technique.  So, I'm just posting this so that hopefully the word gets out: meet the MINIMUM standard or go home.  It's that simple.


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## SeanNewman (30 May 2010)

Thank god the School of Awesomosity has the integrity to be the filter that Recruiting Centres and Saint Jean are failing to be.

Nobody has made anything harder; the standards are the same as they've always been.  

It's just that it takes Infanteers* to hold future leaders to the standard.

_That's right, I said it!_

Added: *Note* "Infanteer" is straight from the Director of Infantry's mouth.  Infantryman is out like Spokesman and Salesman.


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## R. Jorgensen (30 May 2010)

Amen.

When I went in to do the Entry Fitness evaluation during the recruiting process, I was surprised at these people who were about my age (16-20) and even older (20-25) who couldn't even meet the entry requirements. The old guy beside me, who was probably 40-45, actually scored on the SUPERIOR scale of the examination. Needless to say; 3 out of 11 applicants at that time went on because we met, and exceeded the minimum fitness requirements.


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## 4Feathers (30 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Thank god the School of Awesomosity has the integrity to be the filter that Recruiting Centres and Saint Jean are failing to be.
> 
> ![/i]
> 
> Sounds like the Timmies commercial "awesomer!", just note that the RC's don't conduct express tests for reg force recruits, and CFPSA conducts the tests for the reservists that apply.  That being said, I concur with your rating for the school of awesomosity!


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## CallOfDuty (30 May 2010)

That's ***ing pathetic!!!   The sad part is that it is the norm in my world ( Transport) to not be able to pass a PT test.  
When I was thinking of joining I was overweight and could barely do 5 push-ups...sad.  Anyhow, once I decided to join I learned how to eat healthy and to maintain a healthy weight through good food and exercise.

   I always thought of it is part of my duty as a soldier to maintain a healthy body.  Is that too much to ask?  The canteen where I work is stocked with nothing but garbage. Pizza pockets...pop, chips , chocolate bars....ice cream.  And the guys LOVE it.  Seems like a bar/pop n' chips is considered lunch to way more people than I thought. 

  Sorry for the rant.  I just get frustrated by peoples inability to meet even the smallest of standards, while self sabotaging every day.  One of my favorite military sayings that keeps me motivated  is------------  *" Discipline yourself, so that others don't have to do it for you."*


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## aesop081 (30 May 2010)

4Feathers said:
			
		

> just note that the RC's don't conduct express tests for reg force recruits, and CFPSA conducts the tests for the reservists that apply.



Considering that when people arrive at the school mentioned, they have already gone through BMQ/BMOQ and are well aware of what the minimum stadard is. Some have even been to this school previously on other courses and have spent time at various units.

Your comment about the CFRC and reg/res is irrelevant.


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## vonGarvin (30 May 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Your comment about the CFRC and reg/res is irrelevant.


How true.
Of the 9 sent back, there were at least two doing ROTP at civilian universities, at least one reservist, and at least four from RMC.  "Full Spectrum Failures".

Also, please note that though 9 failed the ExPres Test, over 200 passed it.  

As a further note, that is just the prerequisite to get your foot in the door.  The Commandant and his staff expect you to far exceed the minimum standard.


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## blacktriangle (30 May 2010)

Well done to whoever put their foot down on these candidates. If only other areas of the CF would do the same!


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## ballz (30 May 2010)

I leave this Sunday to start BMOQ-L at the Infantry School... I have more or less had the fear of God put into me by my instructors at St. Jean to the point that I've been worried (and training because of it) for 8 months about not being in good enough shape to complete the course. Some poor guys here that work there can testify that I've worn out my welcome with PMs ;D

I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch, but I can't comprehend how people can show up at or just below the minimum required fitness level and actually expect to pass the course. Even if that one guy did squeek out an extra pushup... did he really think he was in good enough shape to complete the course?

Now that I have said this, let's watch as the karma monkey c0ckslaps me in the face next Monday and makes me fail the hand grip test.


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## SeanNewman (30 May 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> As a further note, that is just the prerequisite to get your foot in the door field.



And from personal experience on both sides of the fence (candidate and course officer), the PT Test is only for staff to be reasonably certain that the person will not have a heart attack going up the stairs.

It is in no way meant to replicate the physical hardships that await you in the field that are literally infinitely harder than what PSP does to you wearing a bib and a number.

[/instilling fear in future candidates]


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## CallOfDuty (30 May 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> let's watch as the karma monkey c0ckslaps me in the face next Monday and makes me fail the hand grip test.


LMAO!!


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## vonGarvin (30 May 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Even if that one guy did squeek out an extra pushup... did he really think he was in good enough shape to complete the course?


That is the point precisely.  There is a minimum standard.  And that's just to get in the door, as I said.  To be fit enough to have the reserves to make it on pure willpower, one must have a very good start state.  
The other point I wish to make is technique, the whole "90 degree" elbow thing.  And all that jazz.  Some candidates will say "They didn't count over half".  That's fine.  Everyone else made it, YOU didn't.  







Yeah, YOU!


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## 57Chevy (30 May 2010)

Big Beef said:
			
		

> Amen.
> 
> When I went in to do the Entry Fitness evaluation during the recruiting process, I was surprised at these people who were about my age (16-20) and even older (20-25) who couldn't even meet the entry requirements. The old guy beside me, who was probably 40-45, actually scored on the SUPERIOR scale of the examination. Needless to say; 3 out of 11 applicants at that time went on because we met, and exceeded the minimum fitness requirements.



Us older guys came from another generation. I think Jai Leno sums up the fitness problem with alot of the younger generation.
From Jai Leno:
TO ALL THE KIDS WHO SURVIVED THE 1930's, 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's!! 
First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they were pregnant. 
They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can and didn't get tested for diabetes. 
Then after that trauma, we were put to sleep on our tummies in baby cribs covered with bright colored lead-base paints. 
We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, locks on doors or cabinets and when we rode our bikes, we had baseball caps not helmets on our heads. 
As infants & children, we would ride in cars with no car seats, booster seats, seat belts or air bags. 
Riding in the back of a pick up truck on a warm day was always a special treat. 
We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle. 
We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and no one actually died from this. 
We ate cupcakes, white bread, real butter and bacon. We drank Kool-aid made with real white sugar. And, we weren't overweight. WHY? 
Because we were always outside, playing...that's why! 
We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on. 
No one was able to reach us all day. And, we were O.K. 
We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then ride down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times,we learned to solve the problem. 
We did not have Playstations, Nintendo's and X-boxes. There were no video games, no 150 channels on cable, no video movies or DVD's, no surround-sound or CD's, no cell phones, no personal computers, no Internet and no chat rooms. 
WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them! 
We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents. 
We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever. 
We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays, made up games with sticks and tennis balls and, although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes. 
We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or rang the bell, or just walked in and talked to them. 
Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. 

Imagine that!! 

The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law! 
These generations have produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers and inventors ever. 
The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas. 
We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all. 
If YOU are one of them-- CONGRATULATIONS! 

You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated so much of our lives for our own good. 
While you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will know how brave and lucky their parents were. 
Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors, doesn't it ?


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## Nauticus (30 May 2010)

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> That's ***ing pathetic!!!   The sad part is that it is the norm in my world ( Transport) to not be able to pass a PT test.
> When I was thinking of joining I was overweight and could barely do 5 push-ups...sad.  Anyhow, once I decided to join I learned how to eat healthy and to maintain a healthy weight through good food and exercise.
> 
> I always thought of it is part of my duty as a soldier to maintain a healthy body.  Is that too much to ask?  The canteen where I work is stocked with nothing but garbage. Pizza pockets...pop, chips , chocolate bars....ice cream.  And the guys LOVE it.  Seems like a bar/pop n' chips is considered lunch to way more people than I thought.
> ...


While I agree 100% with you, those who do the CF Express Test aren't army material yet. They obviously didn't prepare for it, but a lot of civvy jobs don't require a high level of fitness. It's just irresponsibility that these people decide not to do what you did, eat healthy and exercise.


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## dogger1936 (31 May 2010)

At least one school isnt coddling em. Shows that the infantry school is running fit keen guys at thei DP1 instructor level. Now if we can get other schools to get on board.


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## fischer10 (31 May 2010)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> We did not have Playstations, Nintendo's and X-boxes. There were no video games, no 150 channels on cable, no video movies or DVD's, no surround-sound or CD's, no cell phones, no personal computers, no Internet and no chat rooms.
> WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them!
> We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents.
> We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever.
> ...



I am 19 at the moment and back when I was younger I was shooting a 10/22 Ruger by age 6, had no internet (other then the little bit of time the school gave) until I was 14, we were outside for hours in all seasons, bicycles/motorbikes/atv's were driven without helmets, most of us did make hockey/baseball teams because there was very few of us YET, with that - all of us were good enough to make it even if there was excess people because thats all we did all day. Personally I have not broken any bones/chipped teeth but have seen it done ! We also had to remove snow in winter because no plow was coming to do it for us, had to cut wood and haul it to the house every night in winter to stay warm etc, etc.

I did have a Nintendo and a Super Nintendo (Mario is epic - enough said there!). 

The only difference these days is more kids grow up in cities - giving them access to all the stuff you listed and not having to "go it alone" type deal. For those who grew up in the country (your neighbor was a 10-15 minute drive away) it was basically the same as what you described.

Not trying to shoot your/Leno's write up! There clearly is more comfort in living these days because of the people who grew up back in the day =). I enjoy my computer and internet, more efficient and easier. Though I would much rather be walking a bush for hours on end shooting squirrels/birds/beavers and what ever else moved haha. 

Also, most of the students in my school (~90% of them) were in shape, able to play any sport and did play them. As for those who were overweight, they were the type that sat at home and did not join in/afraid of sunlight type people. As time progresses overweight people will increase as daily living gets easier and easier, while unhealthy food gets quicker and closer to those who enjoy it!


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## Scoobie Newbie (31 May 2010)

I know there as to be some kind of standard but given that the judging from one PSP staff to the next is not exact and body types are different I think there can be a better test made up.  Besides doing 19 push ups vice 18 doesn't make one a better soldier over the other.  Unfortunately that's the model but I think there has to  be a better way.


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## ballz (31 May 2010)

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> given that the judging from one PSP staff to the next is not exact and body types are different I think there can be a better test made up



I agree with that, and I *think* I have already (in my short short time in the CF) seen the difference between PSP staff make the difference between a pass and a fail.

Through hockey and other sports I have done a lot of fitness testing and none of the express test stuff is new to me. What I don't get is why the CF uses this whole "90 degree bend at the elbow" thing as the measurement of a completed push-ups, because like you said, it is so subjective. 

The best way I've seen push-ups measured is to have something (a person's fist/finger/thumb, or an actual button that "clicks" when pressed, anything) placed under the person's chest that needs to be touched. Pretty damn hard for human error, body type, etc, to screw that up. You either touched the button/fist or you didn't.


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## Nfld Sapper (31 May 2010)

One of the PSP staff assessing you in Gagetown could be this guy........ most of you in  Gagetown should know him......


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## blacktriangle (31 May 2010)

The Shirlenator!


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## TimBit (31 May 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> How true.
> Of the 9 sent back, there were at least two doing ROTP at civilian universities, at least one reservist, and at least four from RMC.  "Full Spectrum Failures".
> 
> Also, please note that though 9 failed the ExPres Test, over 200 passed it.
> ...



Of note on RMC. I also remember being at the Infantry School in 2002 and a significant number of people from RMC did not fare well on the CF Expres. Of interest, most of them were Armour.  ;D


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## DexOlesa (31 May 2010)

I wonder how thats even possible as the RMC PPT test has higher standards than the CF express.


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## GGHG_Cadet (31 May 2010)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> I wonder how thats even possible as the RMC PPT test has higher standards than the CF express.



Ha. The PPT does have higher numerical standards than the EXPRESS test, but the PSP who evaluate us are very relaxed on form. There are a lot of push ups, sit ups, etc that should not count. The PSP staff at RMC do not want to fail anyone and as such they let some sloppy push ups get by. Also a lot of Ocdts only train 3 times yearly, so that they can barely scrape by on their 3 tests. Many people lack the motivation/ discipline required to establish a fit lifestyle where they wouldn't need to worry incessantly about PT tests. Its not a huge surprise to see people failing the EXPRESS test, though it is very disappointing.


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## TimBit (31 May 2010)

That's disheartening... you would think that students at RMC, as future leaders, would take it upon themselves to excel in all four pillars, not only two or three. Especially if you're going cbt arms, for crying out loud.


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## DexOlesa (31 May 2010)

the only reason I'm not complaining is that, while I switched to a healthy lifestyle and have been working my ass off I was VERY overweight (60lbs) I'm down 10 ish, but that means I still have 50 to go and only 2 months till recruit camp at RMC, I'm not gonna make it by then. Christmas however I should be in fighting form.


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## GGHG_Cadet (31 May 2010)

TimBit said:
			
		

> That's disheartening... you would think that students at RMC, as future leaders, would take it upon themselves to excel in all four pillars, not only two or three. Especially if you're going cbt arms, for crying out loud.



Being a part of the college and seeing so much of it first hand, it is disheartening; however, like everywhere else in the CF, there is good and bad. I know many individuals who are extremely fit and keen, and I believe that they will make very good leaders. Its unfortunate that a few bad apples can tarnish the college's reputation much faster than it takes for the good ones to build it.


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## armyvern (31 May 2010)

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> Besides doing 19 push ups vice 18 doesn't make one a better soldier over the other.



I agree; it means that 1 of 2 was _barely_ capable of meeting the *minimum* standard and that the other 1 of 2 couldn't even do that. 

As already said, the PT test does nothing towards towards determining who will make a "good" soldier or not, but it does seem to show who, at least, had an ounce of personal drive in their body to 'try' to meet the minimum fitness standard for the CF - knowing full well that they: 1) applied to join the military; 2) may be going combat arms, (!! <--- BIG hint that one needs to be in shape!!); 3) will be reporting for various courses; and 4) *will* be tested to ensure that they can meet that bare minimum "known" standard at the outset of their career. Most of them have had "months", at the minimum, to prepare for this and get themselves into shapr after applying to the CF. Apparently, some don't have enough drive to do even that.

This testing isn't a surprise to them and they are well aware of what they need to achieve. There has to be a minimum standard set somewhere along the line and this is currently where it's at. 

At the end of the day, I'll take the guy who at least made effort to attain the minimum fitness result over the one who didn't because "good" soldiers also need to exhibit personal drive, determination, an ability to overcome difficulties, personal responsibility and accountability, and an ability to work on their own in an effort to achieve results. One of them managed to that - and the other did not despite having months to prep. Désolé, I hope the door doesn't hit the others' ass on the way out because his "*failure*" demonstrates many more defecient areas than "just" fitness.


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## armyvern (31 May 2010)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> One of the PSP staff assessing you in Gagetown could be this guy........ most of you in  Gagetown should know him......



Ha ha. Dave Shirley. I'm so jealous ... of his hair dammit. I actually liked having Dave for circuit training etc. He was hilarious - and made me sweat. It's nice when one leaves the gym actually having worked hard and having enjoyed themself.


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## SeanNewman (31 May 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Ha ha. Dave Shirley. I'm so jealous ... of his hair dammit.



He doesn't even have the hair anymore.  

As for the PT Test, I will reiterate that it has nothing to do with determining whether or not someone will be a good soldier or a leader, but is treated almost as a baseline insurance policy for the staff that the candidate isn't going to have a heart attack and die when they do something hard.

I would rather have someone fail a PT test because they're junk than have them keel over on my when I'm taking the company for a run through the back woods.


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## Bzzliteyr (31 May 2010)

Haha.. Dave.. flashback time...


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## Pusser (31 May 2010)

The problem with the Expres Test is that it is designed for long-legged track stars.  Us short-legged rugby players (especially forwards) have real problems with the shuttle run, but who always gets asked to carry the @#$&! radios that the long-legged track stars crumple under?  

 :stirpot:

My own view is that we should do away with fitness testing altogether and instead instill a culture of fitness in the CF.  Why do we run the crap out of people on BMQ and BMOQ and then stop?  Fitness training should be a daily activity for everyone.  In other words, you're fit because you can't help but be fit.  With the exception of the hardcore Army units, when was the last time you saw a CO out leading folks through PT?  Why do we have such concern over parking spaces for vehicles when bicycle parking and access to proper change facilities is such crap?  I worked in one site where there were 800 parking spaces, but poorly maintained bike racks for only 100 and even fewer lockers in the change room.  The CF preaches a good game about being fit, but does a poor job of encouraging it.  We would rather punish people for failure than set them up for success.


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## forgiven (31 May 2010)

I remember when watching Basic Up Reloaded (the episode when the recruit did 20 meter shuttle run), the tall guys seems to just walk, literally, on the earlier stage!  The same cannot be said for the shorter people.  Indeed, I agree with Pusser that the test may favour the long-legged people.  Those people need to make less steps to complete 20 meter distance compared to shorter ones, thus saving energy and very possibly will reach higher stage.  But then, someone may argue that on average, tall people have more weight to carry.   Imagine being 'short' and overweight :

Every test will have flaws, I think, but the standard should be there to gauge CF member fitness, even though it is very minimum.   From my own experience, while I was physically inactive, no exercise whatsover, 40 lbs overweight,  I did the shuttle run, I reached stage 4.0.   I am a woman under 35 years old, so I passed the standard!  So, the standard is not that difficult to achieve.


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## DexOlesa (31 May 2010)

I am a man under 25 years old and if I make a 4.5 i'll be impressed I will also fail. 6 is up there a ways and don't get me started about the 9.5 for RMC


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## Nfld Sapper (31 May 2010)

Thought you guys and gals would like the Shipley thing......


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## PanaEng (31 May 2010)

I can't comment on Navy or AF bases but, I think, the Army does a good job of encouraging fitness.
Gym facilities are abundant; you get time to do PT - as part of your work day!  Find any civilian job that would let you do that.
Can it be better? yes, as Pusser said, more bike racks - at the front, near the entrance of the bldg - better changing facilities in each building, etc.

cheers,
Frank


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## 57Chevy (31 May 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> With the exception of the hardcore Army units, when was the last time you saw a CO out leading folks through PT?


 Ok.....it may be a hardcore army unit but....
Way back when, up in Petawawa, there is a hill named RCD HILL. Don't ask me why it carries that
name, because I don't know. But I'm sure someone does. Our CO made it a point to run up there
every single time we went on a run, in running shoes sometimes, and full kit more than sometimes.
If you were in the front you were ok, but anywhere behind then let me tell you.....you ate the dust.
And the roadway was and probably still is, a wash board, with round stones and tons of dust. And
the CO, who was older than most of us was usually found somewhere up front.
Daily exercise is fine to keep yourself toned, but physical training is a whole different ballgame.
Sweat it out.......and I'm not talking about the sauna. ;D


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## armychick2009 (31 May 2010)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays, made up games with sticks and tennis balls and, although we were told it would happen, *we did not put out very many eyes.*



Something about that part, really amuses me! *laughs*


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## SeanNewman (31 May 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> ...My own view is that we should do away with fitness testing altogether and instead instill a culture of fitness in the CF.  Why do we run the crap out of people on BMQ and BMOQ and then stop?  Fitness training should be a daily activity for everyone.



No offence, but nobody forced you to not pick "Infantry" at the Recruiting Centre  ;D

It's all about corporate culture and personalities more than it is about rules and regulations.  There is nothing to stop a Commander in charge of 500 sailors from instilling a culture of fitness in his men anymore than an Infantry CO does with his.  

Just like the Infantry, it just means that you give up something else during that time.  All you need to do is PT 0730-0830, then wash up and back to work for 0930.

In my culture, it's embedded so much that even if you do have a legitimate reason for missing PT one day (medical appointment, car accident going to work, etc) you actually feel guilty about missing PT and walk around work sheepishly that day wondering if you're going to get charged or something.


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## aesop081 (31 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> All you need to do is PT 0730-0830, then wash up and back to work for 0930.



Thats exactly how it went for the forst 11 years of my career. Unfortunately, outisde the army, life is not that simple.


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## PanaEng (31 May 2010)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Ok.....it may be a hardcore army unit but....
> Way back when, up in Petawawa, there is a hill named RCD HILL. Don't ask me why it carries that
> name, because I don't know.


RCD hill bc the compound at the top was housing the RCD at one point.
shortly after I got to Pet (87) it got paved. Then, a few years later it was re-cut, the road made more gradual - from a 40% grade  ;D to a 15% one - not the same

cheers,
Frank


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## SeanNewman (31 May 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> ...Unfortunately, outisde the army, life is not that simple.



I understand that some people have jobs that really do force them away from being able to get to a gym or whatever, but one has to think that those are by far the minority.  Yes I understand that something like an ATC needs to be at his post every second of how shift, but...

There is no way you're going to tell me that any day job at an AirForce base can't pull off organized PT.  If you work indoors for 8-12 hours a day (office, shop, whatever) and so does your boss and everyone else around you, all it takes is for him to accept the loss of a couple hours of other work a day in order to do PT.

If he choses not to do that and he wants people at their desk every minute of the day, then he has to accept the consequences of having fat people who take more sick days and get injured easier, as well as lower productivity when they are at work.

And anyone who works in that environment and knows it's wrong should put in for an OT.

PanaEng,

RCD Hill is still a ***** to get up, especially when it's the 9km mark of the 10km Brindle Hill loop.  Although it has nothing on the front gate hill at Meaford.


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## aesop081 (31 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I understand that some people have jobs that really do force them away from being able to get to a gym or whatever, but one has to think that those are by far the minority.  Yes I understand that something like an ATC needs to be at his post every second of how shift, but...
> 
> There is no way you're going to tell me that any day job at an AirForce base can't pull off organized PT.  If you work indoors for 8-12 hours a day (office, shop, whatever) and so does your boss and everyone else around you, all it takes is for him to accept the loss of a couple hours of other work a day in order to do PT.



You have some very valid points there and i assure you that at my Wing, units that can do so, run organized PT sessions at least several times each week. The reality of things for other units, i have gone into details with you before.





> RCD Hill is still a ***** to get up, especially when it's the 9km mark of the 10km Brindle Hill loop.



Thanks for bringing back some painful morning memories........


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## Yrys (31 May 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thanks for bringing back some painful morning memories........



Share them , they'll become less painfull :nod: !


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## SupersonicMax (31 May 2010)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> I am a man under 25 years old and if I make a 4.5 i'll be impressed I will also fail. 6 is up there a ways and don't get me started about the 9.5 for RMC



You are kidding right?


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## Pusser (31 May 2010)

Whenever somebody in the Navy mentions organized daily PT sessions, people scream that we can't afford the lost work time.  Arguments about increased productivity, greater alertness and lesser absenteeism fall on deaf ears.  However, I watched the Japanese sailors doing it in Sasebo and still see no reason we couldn't do it as well.  I will concede that the atmosphere is getting better and most folks will be granted time for PT if they ask for it (I always grant it to my subordinates), but this is still a tough nut to crack.  We need to make it easier and more convenient.  Encouraging people to run or cycle to work (by making it easy for them to clean up and get changed) is a good start.


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## DexOlesa (31 May 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You are kidding right?



Not kidding, I can pass the pushups, situps, and for the RMC test the long jump etc. but I've never been good at the beep test. I'm slow. Played football in high school, fenced competitively on an international level for 5 years. Was on the training squad for the Canada Games team for my province, did beep tests all the time, think my best was a 5.


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Jun 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> There is no way you're going to tell me that any day job at an AirForce base can't pull off organized PT.  If you work indoors for 8-12 hours a day (office, shop, whatever) and so does your boss and everyone else around you, all it takes is for him to accept the loss of a couple hours of other work a day in order to do PT.



The problem is some folks look at you like you have 4 heads when you want to do PT, and you get questions like "why?  you passed your PT test last month, didn't you?".  I got that one in my last MOC, as an ATIS Tech posted to N6 but working out of 12 Wing.  I actually fought to get PT time and my Chief didn't like it too much.  When I produced the DAOD and CANFORGENs from our then-CDS, I was even less popular with my CoC.  Thankfully, I am neither in that MOC or that unit anymore.

I can't say what other Wings are like, but Shearwater is pretty good for the unit PT, although it is more 'sports' than what you might consider PT.

My home unit does Sqn PT every Friday afternoon.  Everyone who can attend is expected to attend, from all 3 messes.  We have 2 hours PT per day allotted, depending on what is going on that day, at my home unit, and if you don't go you'd better have a good excuse when the ATFC asks you why you weren't there.


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## SeanNewman (1 Jun 2010)

EITS,

Thank you for the insight into the other side of the fence.  It's just inconceivable for me to imagine a boss looking at you disapprovingly when you tell them you want to do PT.  Both my OC and CO are unbelievably fit and as I mentioned above my culture is the complete opposite of what you're describing. 

At least you seem to claim it's not the entire AF, just unit dependent.  

I am all for sports as long as it's real sports and not something where someone can slack off and waste the time (like baseball).  If you play something like ball hockey or soccer, the athletic guys are going to bust their ass but commanders must make sure the fat guys are getting out there too and not taking 30 second shifts and 10 minute breaks.

Sports are much better morale-wise than running because usually only a few people actually like running where as most of the group will enjoy sports.  However, injuries seem to go through the roof when playing sports.  Even if not overly physical, ball hockey seems to be the biggest source of CF98s in the CF that aren't field-related.


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## mellian (1 Jun 2010)

Do they warm up and stretch before playing? Just seems silly not to before doing a sport or practice of.


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## SeanNewman (1 Jun 2010)

mellian said:
			
		

> Do they warm up and stretch before playing? Just seems silly not to before doing a sport or practice of.



Book answer is yes, ground truth answer is probably not.

They're not muscular-types of injuries though and they're typically rolled ankles which are difficult to stretch for.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Jun 2010)

mellian said:
			
		

> Do they warm up and stretch before playing? Just seems silly not to before doing a sport or practice of.



I have NEVER stretched before playing, does that make me "silly"?


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## Bzzliteyr (1 Jun 2010)

I have heard people suggest that stretching before a run isn't a good idea as well.. run a bit then stretch then carry on.  And then when you get back let eveything relax and stretch an hour or so later?


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## Alea (1 Jun 2010)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I have heard people suggest that stretching before a run isn't a good idea as well.. run a bit then stretch then carry on.  And then when you get back let eveything relax and stretch an hour or so later?



Hi,

I agree with that.
Because I tend to do the opposite, this is what my trainer always reminds me off: *Warming up * is for before any exercise, *stretching* is for after any exercise 

Alea


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## PMedMoe (1 Jun 2010)

You are correct, Bzz, stretching cold muscles doesn't do a thing for them.  Do a light jog or other calisthenics before doing a light stretch.  From what I understand, the post-exercise stretch is more beneficial.


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## Haggis (1 Jun 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Thank you for the insight into the other side of the fence.  It's just inconceivable for me to imagine a boss looking at you disapprovingly when you tell them you want to do PT.



Try working at NDHQ in a predominantly civilian workplace, for a civilian supervisor who works for a civilian DG who works for a civilian ADM.  Every year I'd face the question of "Why do you go to the gym during the day?".  "How come you military guys get to work out on company time while we public servants don't?"    "How come you get free access to gyms and we don't?"  All your civvy supervisors see when you leave for PT is an hour of productivity walking out the door.


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## Pusser (1 Jun 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I can't say what other Wings are like, but Shearwater is pretty good for the unit PT, although it is more 'sports' than what you might consider PT.



There is nothing wrong with using sports for PT.  In fact, you do more good by getting 30 folks  out for soccer than you do when three show up for circuit training.  However, as has been said already, they must be real sports that involve actual exercise.  Bowling doesn't count!


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## Pusser (1 Jun 2010)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Try working at NDHQ in a predominantly civilian workplace, for a civilian supervisor who works for a civilian DG who works for a civilian ADM.  Every year I'd face the question of "Why do you go to the gym during the day?".  "How come you military guys get to work out on company time while we public servants don't?"    "How come you get free access to gyms and we don't?"  All your civvy supervisors see when you leave for PT is an hour of productivity walking out the door.



The simple answer to that is, "different terms of service."  Being in shape is in my job description.  Civilian employees do not suffer adverse career action by failing to pass a PT test.  If the CF is going to impose a requirement to be fit upon me, then the CF is obligated to provide me with both the time and the equipment to maintain an acceptable level of fitness.  When Treasury Board imposes a  fitness requirement on members of the Public Service, then they can argue for time and equipment through the collective bargaining process.  Until then, deal with it (admittedly, I try ot be more diplomatic when arguing this to a new civilian supervisor).  So far I've been lucky.  I too work at NDHQ and I've never had a problem with this.  In fact, when I leave work early to play hockey in a CFSU(O) sponsored league, it's not for fun.  It's part of my CF approved fitness program.   It it also worth noting that CF members are not employees of the Department of National Defence


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## SeanNewman (1 Jun 2010)

Sometimes for us it crosses the line though away from fitness and into how good of an athlete you are at a certain sport.

Hypothetically (of course), if someone happens to be a really good hockey player, somehow the magnet with their name on it seems to move higher than everyone else's come merit board season, even if they are worse than everyone else at their actual job (which last time I checked was the Infantry, not a pro hockey player).

This has been going on for decades from what I'm told of the Germany days, and it hasn't changed.

Fit = good.  Good at a certain sport should be completely irrelevant.


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## PMedMoe (1 Jun 2010)

Pusser, nicely put.  My short reply to those questions is:  "When you have to do a yearly fitness test, then you can complain/query."

Petamocto, agreed.  I used to call it the "Athletic Scholarship".      Ironman falls right in there, too.

FWIW, as much as I hate certain types of PT (e.g. running), I _much_ prefer it to sports.  I hate sports, far too many chances for pretty severe injuries.


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## gcclarke (1 Jun 2010)

I'm in much the same situation, but everyone in my workplace are perfectly fine with me taking off whatever time I need to stay fit. I guess it varies from person to person. But at the end of the day, the answer that everyone needs to be able to give is "because staying physically fit is a job requirement for me, in accordance with DAOD 5023-2, and Commanding Officers are responsible to try and ensure that all CF members are provided opportunities to conduct phyiscal fitness training during working hours." But of course, as I'm sure we're all aware, it's not always easy for most people to stand up to their bosses, but I find the best way to do so is definitely to be able to throw a reference in their face. I think maybe this is something that should be covered off during your in-routine to NDHQ.  

As for the "how come you get free access to gyms and we don't?" question, it depends on if they're talking about getting a free pass to the YMCA, or about using the DND facilities. Because public servants are allowed to use the gym facilities located in their workplace (such as the gym in the Pearkes building), just not during their scheduled working hours. Contractors, not so much, but one would hope that they're smart enough to figure out why they don't get the same perks as actual employees.


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## Haggis (1 Jun 2010)

Pusser said:
			
		

> The simple answer to that is, "different terms of service."  Being in shape is in my job description.  Civilian employees do not suffer adverse career action by failing to pass a PT test.  If the CF is going to impose a requirement to be fit upon me, then the CF is obligated to provide me with both the time and the equipment to maintain an acceptable level of fitness.  When Treasury Board imposes a  fitness requirement on members of the Public Service, then they can argue for time and equipment through the collective bargaining process.  Until then, deal with it (admittedly, I try ot be more diplomatic when arguing this to a new civilian supervisor).  So far I've been lucky.  I too work at NDHQ and I've never had a problem with this.  In fact, when I leave work early to play hockey in a CFSU(O) sponsored league, it's not for fun.  It's part of my CF approved fitness program.   It it also worth noting that CF members are not employees of the Department of National Defence



I see that you have probably read an e-mail I sent.   ;D  After the second time facing this dilemma (this time precipitated by a Public Servant who submitted a grievance) I developed a template e-mail quoting chapter and verse of various DAOD, CDS guidances, CANFORGENs etc. Consequently,  I have fought the battle and won on every occasion.

However, it gets tedious when the ground needs to be re-taken every time a new Director, DG or ADM arrives and the "chain of command" tries to rein us into "the Business" and away from "the military".

It's also a bit disheartening to see CF members at NDHQ who use this as an excuse to not do PT and, further, get "EXCUSED" on thier PERs as a result.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Jun 2010)

Haggis said:
			
		

> It's also a bit disheartening to see CF members at NDHQ who use this as an excuse to not do PT and, further, get "EXCUSED" on thier PERs as a result.



You're in better shape than most of the troops in the regiment. It's apparent on marches, pwt3, ex's etc and the troops see that.
I can't see soldiers at NDHQ caring about being in shape because they probably don't see a reason why they have to be. No one is looking up to them, no one is judging them.
Kinda pisses me off, I have to fight to get time for the gym (even class B I need to pay for my own membership) and these NDHQ types have access to a free gym, permission to go and yet choose not too.

Is it still a rule that someone cannot be promoted unless they pass the physical fitness test?

Also, without trying to be a smartass, there are some very very VERY obese soldiers in the Canadian Forces. Like, epic sized. 
Clearly they cannot pass a fitness test, be it a run or the (more applicable) BFT.  Do they face any repercussions?  Are they put on a sort of boot camp workout where they have to loose X amount of weight by X date or are they just left to their own?  A friend of mine's husband was a mechanic in the US army and after being put on a probation for being over weight and failing to get in shape, they kicked him out of the army.
Do we have anything like that?


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## Haggis (1 Jun 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Is it still a rule that someone cannot be promoted unless they pass the physical fitness test?



Ys, it is.  The minimum standard required for promotion is the EXPRES test.



			
				Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Also, without trying to be a smartass, there are some very very VERY obese soldiers in the Canadian Forces. Like, epic sized.
> Clearly they cannot pass a fitness test, be it a run or the (more applicable) BFT.  Do they face any repercussions?  Are they put on a sort of boot camp workout where they have to loose X amount of weight by X date or are they just left to their own?  A friend of mine's husband was a mechanic in the US army and after being put on a probation for being over weight and failing to get in shape, they kicked him out of the army.
> Do we have anything like that?



We have DAOD 5023-2 which sets similar conditions.  You can get released for not being fit.  I have heard that it has been successfully applied but I have not (thanklfully) seen it personally yet.

Where I work - now - the Director's expectation (a Capt (N)) is that all staff will either complete the BFT or get EXEMPT on the CF EXPRES.  He does it and so do we.  there is a culture of fitness in my Directorate.


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## mariomike (1 Jun 2010)

Haggis said:
			
		

> We have DAOD 5023-2 which sets similar conditions.  You can get released for not being fit.  I have heard that it has been successfully applied but I have not (thanklfully) seen it personally yet.



For reference:
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5023-2-eng.asp


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Jun 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> EITS,
> 
> Thank you for the insight into the other side of the fence.  It's just inconceivable for me to imagine a boss looking at you disapprovingly when you tell them you want to do PT.  Both my OC and CO are unbelievably fit and as I mentioned above my culture is the complete opposite of what you're describing.
> 
> At least you seem to claim it's not the entire AF, just unit dependent.



To add,

What I see at my Wing and Sqn is just that, only one small part of the AF.  I've only worked on 2 Wings so far.  From what I gather though, PT is not as structured or organized like Army units, and I'd go as far to say in my (limited) experience in AF units, there is not as much of a 8-4 workday as I saw in garrison life on the green side.  The FLYPRO dictates alot of personnel/time resources, people are on shifts, stand-by, weekends, what have you.  Therefore, it seems that the majority of PT is left to the individual responsibility.  Where I am now, if you have a showtime for 0830, its up to you if you want to get some PT in before your flight.  We have a few guys who do NO PT, and a few guys who don't miss a day.  Having said that, of course everyone has to pass the EXPRES test, as well as their yearly aircrew medical.  BMI, waist circumference and the like are still used on us.  

 :2c:


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## davidsonr_91 (1 Jun 2010)

I don't get it cause at the start of this article it says that those candidates who failed the test were released but in the DAOD that was provided above says that those who do not meet the standard will be placed on remedial PT for 12 weeks until the standard is met and everything will be good as long as they don't fail it twice in a row.

Any clerification?  

And there is a difference between a person who didn't prepare cause they were lazy and someone who maybe was off pt for a while because they had a injury and coundn't do pt but wanted to.


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## PMedMoe (1 Jun 2010)

They weren't released, they were ceased training, meaning they could not continue on the course they had been sent on.


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## vonGarvin (1 Jun 2010)

davidsonr_91 said:
			
		

> Any clerification?


All candidates for courses conducted at the Infantry School must be fit In Accordance with a certain standard.  That standard varies by course: in some cases, it's the CF ExPres Test, in others, it's the LFCPFS.  The candidates I mentioned were on courses for which being fit in accordance with the CF ExPres Test was a prerequisite.  Just as a person must be qualified certain things before attending certain courses, and just as you need to have completed a previous grade in school, so too must these candidates meet this prerequisite.  
These candidates, not having met the prerequisite, were not allowed to continue training.  The message I am trying to send is this: be fit.

That is all.


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## SeanNewman (1 Jun 2010)

davidsonr_91 said:
			
		

> I don't get it cause at the start of this article it says that those candidates who failed the test were released but...
> 
> And there is a difference between a person who didn't prepare cause they were lazy and someone who maybe was off pt for a while because they had a injury and coundn't do pt but wanted to.



1.  The Commandant of the Inf Sch is not the Commanding Officer for anyone except the Infantry candidates.  For all other trades the candidates are only on loan (for explanation's sake) to the Inf Sch.  So what happens if a candidate is junk is that the Inf Sch Cmdt can stop the candidate from training and then make a recommendation to the soldier's actual CO for what to do with him.

2.  No.  If you are unable to pass the test you fail.  If you are injured and unfit you should not be loaded on to the course until you are fit enough to train and pass the test.


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## davidsonr_91 (1 Jun 2010)

Thanks for the answers.  I know this isn't the right place but how do you find the course schedule for the different schools?  How do you know if the schedules are accurate?  Sorry to change the subject.


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## ballz (2 Jun 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Having said that, of course everyone has to pass the EXPRES test, as well as their yearly aircrew medical.  BMI, waist circumference and the like are still used on us.



Holy $#!+

BMI? Are you serious? If you don't mind me asking, is it #1 a "no higher than X or you fail" type thing or is it #2 in combination with other things to get a total score? If it is #1, what is the limit if you don't mind me asking?

BMI on it's own is a pretty archaic and inaccurate way of passing/failing, as has been discussed in many other fitness threads.


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jun 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> Holy $#!+
> 
> BMI? Are you serious? If you don't mind me asking, is it #1 a "no higher than X or you fail" type thing or is it #2 in combination with other things to get a total score? If it is #1, what is the limit if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> BMI on it's own is a pretty archaic and inaccurate way of passing/failing, as has been discussed in many other fitness threads.



Ok keep in mind I am not a Flight Surgeon, MO, PA, or Med Tech.   >

It is _part_ of the aircrew medical.  From my limited understanding, it is used in combination with blood work results (cholesterol levels appeared very important), waist circumference, and 'overall fitness' as tools for the Flight Surgeon to do his/her thing.  

So I'd say its one possible indicator/tool for them to use to assess your medical/health state.


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## ballz (2 Jun 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Ok keep in mind I am not a Flight Surgeon, MO, PA, or Med Tech.   >
> 
> It is _part_ of the aircrew medical.  From my limited understanding, it is used in combination with blood work results (cholesterol levels appeared very important), waist circumference, and 'overall fitness' as tools for the Flight Surgeon to do his/her thing.
> 
> So I'd say its one possible indicator/tool for them to use to assess your medical/health state.



Roger... I was terrified for a minute that it was going to be as simple as  PASS < 26 =< FAIL

I would have lost a lot of all faith...


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## DexOlesa (2 Jun 2010)

Having recently completed (and passed) my A1 Aircrew medical. I did Blood work, blood pressure, hearing, eyes, put me in a machine to measure my body to see if I'd fit in a plane. Lung tests, weight, height, etc. I don't recall them mentioning my BMI but obviously with all those tests they could have just written down my BMI. Now my BMI is High, and I still passed so its obviously not end all be all if its even used.


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jun 2010)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> weight, height



I am sure you know this but all BMI uses is height and weight, which is its fault.


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## DexOlesa (2 Jun 2010)

Yes like I said they took my weight and height as well as measured me for cockpits. They never stated "Your BMI is x" this however does not mean they didn't write it down. My main point is my BMI is like 34. Where as my body fat percentage is roughly 21. I am overweight, I am not morbidly obese or anything like the BMI would have you think. I still got my medical so thats obviously not THE deciding factor.


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jun 2010)

I don't think anyone suggested it was.  I merely pointed out it is used, and is 1 of the many factors.  

Cheers!


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## Griffon (2 Jun 2010)

I talked to the MO at DRDC when I did my aircrew medical and she said that BMI is used as part of determining "Metabolic Syndrome" (Yup, that's what it's called now).  It goes in the mix with HDL, LDL and triglyceride levels and waist circumference.  So they're not using BMI on it's own, just using it as the tool it was intended to be to indicate the possibility that there may be a problem.


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## Infanteer (2 Jun 2010)

The guy who mentioned fitness culture has the right of it.  We have no fitness culture in the CF, it is all dependant on who your CO is.  I spent some time with the USMC and there is a culture of fitness.  Three simple ways to start are:

1.  Do away with the Battle Fitness Test, which has little to do with battle or fitness, and revamp the Express Test to be a good measure of functional fitness.

2.  Make a CF PT Test scored out of 100 (or 300, or whatever) and put that score on PERs.  Give weight to higher numbers and max scores.

3.  Physical Training Instuctor should be brought back as a course; units can send soldiers, sailors and airmen to become PTIs to lead PT at units (this is a course, like Small Arms Instructor, not a trade).  Of course, in the Combat Arms, PTI is a requirement for all leaders....

One of the biggest problems is training leaders to lead fitness - it's basically a self-taught game in the forces.  PT is more then go out for a ruck or a run.  The two fitness PAMs have good PT programs that, when followed, would likely raise the overall level of fitness.


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## PanaEng (2 Jun 2010)

I think part of the CAP and PLQ courses include a Unit PT component. This is a step in the right direction but I also like your suggestions 1 and 2.

Having the BFT as a PASS/FAIL only does not give an incentive for people to exceed the minimum time. People show up for them totally unprepared knowing that anyone should be able to walk the distance at a leisurely pace and still finish in time - then spend the next week recovering from sore muscles, joints and blisters. 

cheers,
Frank


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## CallOfDuty (2 Jun 2010)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> 2.  Make a CF PT Test scored out of 100 (or 300, or whatever) and put that score on PERs.  Give weight to higher numbers and max scores.


Love this idea...


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## mellian (2 Jun 2010)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I have NEVER stretched before playing, does that make me "silly"?



Yes, and if you ever get injured or pulled something that could have been prevented with proper warm ups and stretching it would be your damn bloody fault. 



			
				Alea said:
			
		

> I agree with that.
> Because I tend to do the opposite, this is what my trainer always reminds me off: *Warming up * is for before any exercise, *stretching* is for after any exercise



Can mix it up, just as long the muscles are warm and loose. 8 minutes of tabata, some stretching, and then shower works well (when I manage to maintain such a routine for a length of time). 

At derby practices, we try to do: light skating warm ups, endurance, stretch, various drills that may or may not entail more endurance, 'cold down' endurance, and more stretching. 




			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> There is nothing wrong with using sports for PT.  In fact, you do more good by getting 30 folks  out for soccer than you do when three show up for circuit training.  However, as has been said already, they must be real sports that involve actual exercise.  Bowling doesn't count!



Does roller derby count?


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## Alea (2 Jun 2010)

mellian said:
			
		

> Yes, and if you ever get injured or pulled something that could have been prevented with proper warm ups and stretching it would be your damn bloody fault.



Wow... uncalled for answer!  :

Anyways, stretching BEFORE you exercise or run does not do anything good for your cold muscles. 
Warming up before is good.
Stretching after. 
Can a Medic or a trainer on this forum correct me if I'm wrong as this is what I've always been told before.

Alea


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## GGHG_Cadet (2 Jun 2010)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> 2.  Make a CF PT Test scored out of 100 (or 300, or whatever) and put that score on PERs.  Give weight to higher numbers and max scores.



This is what we currently do at RMC. Our PPT is conducted 3 times yearly and is scored out of a total of 500. A pass is 250, average is around 320, over 400 is superior and over 450 is exceptional. The scores are tracked and posted so that your chain of command can see them and it becomes one of the markers for what bar positions (leadership positions) one can hold. While it is not a sole factor, it is one of 4 and with our last Director of Cadets, it was definitely a big marker for any wing wide positions.


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## DexOlesa (2 Jun 2010)

Alea said:
			
		

> Wow... uncalled for answer!  :
> 
> Anyways, stretching BEFORE you exercise or run does not do anything good for your cold muscles.
> Warming up before is good.
> ...



Yes you should warm up before (for roughly 5 minutes) then do some stretching. Complete your workout and then a 5-10 minute cool down including some light stretching.


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## Alea (2 Jun 2010)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> Yes you should warm up before (for roughly 5 minutes) then do some stretching. Complete your workout and then a 5-10 minute cool down including some light stretching.



Thank you 
Then I will really have a talk with my trainer tomorrow  as I was never told to stretch before any type of exercise. Everyone always said that stretching cold muscles is not really doing anything.

Alea


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## DexOlesa (2 Jun 2010)

Thats why you warm up first, now do you HAVE to stretch its debatable I know that after a few minutes of jogging or jumping jacks etc. I feel much better during my workouts if i stretch out whatever i'm working that day, then the stretching at the cool down is just to make sure they don't contract and cramp up on you (this is what I was always told by trainers when i was in competitive sports) However during a competition i rarely followed their advice. I hated warming up. I was in poor shape and it made me tired running around the gym to warm up running 5 or 10 laps of the gym was a full blown work out for me  :-[


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jun 2010)

mellian said:
			
		

> Yes, and if you ever get injured or pulled something that could have been prevented with proper warm ups and stretching it would be your damn bloody fault.



The exercise & fitness expert at 17 Wing, who is very well qualified and certified said that while warming up is a necessity, stretching before is not.  Being familiar with his experience and credentials, he is the most authoritive voice I've heard on the subject.  From him, the key is warming up for the actual activity you are going to be doing.  If you'd like his contact info to give him your view, I can get it.



> At derby practices, we try to do: light skating warm ups, endurance, stretch, various drills that may or may not entail more endurance, 'cold down' endurance, and more stretching.



And this is relevant to any kind of activity in the military how?


IMO, this debate over stretching/not stretching is soon going to be  :deadhorse:


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Jun 2010)

Here at the school of big booms..... pt is as follows...

10 min warmup to include streching
40 min PT session
10 min cool down to include streching


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## Occam (2 Jun 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The exercise & fitness expert at 17 Wing, who is very well qualified and certified said that while warming up is a necessity, stretching before is not.  Being familiar with his experience and credentials, he is the most authoritive voice I've heard on the subject.  From him, the key is warming up for the actual activity you are going to be doing.  If you'd like his contact info to give him your view, I can get it.



New guidance supports what you've said above - stretching is an separate workout done to maintain flexibility, not as part of a preparation for a workout.  The warmup is most important.

See Stretching before exercise 'is counter-productive'.


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## DexOlesa (2 Jun 2010)

OK I see they are talking about static stretching. Yes this is true that static stretching (too much of it) can do exactly as they say, cause your muscles to contract by overstretching and you hurt yourself. It also mentions that "movements that incorporate stretching like lunches" also known as Ballistic ( swimmer shaking and waving his arms  before diving in or a boxer getting into the ring) is the better way to go.


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## armyvern (3 Jun 2010)

RMC_Cadet said:
			
		

> This is what we currently do at RMC. Our PPT is conducted 3 times yearly and is scored out of a total of 500. A pass is 250, average is around 320, over 400 is superior and over 450 is exceptional. The scores are tracked and posted so that your chain of command can see them and it becomes one of the markers for what bar positions (leadership positions) one can hold. While it is not a sole factor, it is one of 4 and with our last Director of Cadets, it was definitely a big marker for any wing wide positions.



And yet, something is still wrong as RMC candidates are also among those failing the fitness test and being ceased trg when they get to CTC due to inability to meet minimum XPress test standards; the actual subject that caused this thread to be started.


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## SupersonicMax (3 Jun 2010)

RMC PT Test standards are much higher than the Express test.  For males, IIRC' 35 push ups, 35 sit ups, 9.5. on the shuttle run, plus long jump and agility run.  If someone from RMC fails the Express there is a BIG BIG problem.


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## armyvern (3 Jun 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> RMC PT Test standards are much higher than the Express test.  For males, IIRC' 35 push ups, 35 sit ups, 9.5. on the shuttle run, plus long jump and agility run.  If someone from RMC fails the Express there is a BIG BIG problem.



Perhaps then, you need to go back and read.

It is clearly stated that RMC candidates are among those failing to meet the minimum standard at CTC. So, me saying it means squat --- that IS the big big problem brought up in the original post; and not 'just' RMC candidates.

So, that leads me to "what happens to those RMC candidates who get below 250 (ie fail) on any 1 of those 3 tests per year?"


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## DexOlesa (3 Jun 2010)

I was told they go on an extra PT course in the mornings to get in shape, however I was told by one cadet that he never passed the PPT in his so far 3 years there. So apparently nothing.


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## SupersonicMax (3 Jun 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Perhaps then, you need to go back and read.
> 
> It is clearly stated that RMC candidates are among those failing to meet the minimum standard at CTC.
> 
> So, that leads me to "what happens to those RMC candidates who get below 250 (ie fail) on any 1 of those 3 tests per year?"



I know you said that and that's why I said there is a BIG problem.  Those whodo not pass, IIRC, get a second kick at the cat, then if they fail, are put on remedial training.  Failing one of the 4 RMC pillars is a big deal.  It can get you kicked out.  

I seriously don't see how you can fail the Express test after 2 semesters at RMC.  You get scheduled PT Classes twice a week, you have to play intramurals or varsity sports at least twice a week, plus morning PT.  I was in the best shape of my life and I did not visit the gym on my own very often (once a week maybe?).  All the physical activity I did as part of the RMC syllabus was enough to keep me in a great shape.


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## armyvern (3 Jun 2010)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> I was told they go on an extra PT course in the mornings to get in shape, however I was told by one cadet that he never passed the PPT in his so far 3 years there. So apparently nothing.



I know a couple of candidates at RMC --- two inchs shorter and they would be circles; I'm having a hard time imagining them achieving 250 three times a year ... let alone passing a solitary XPress Test.


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## GGHG_Cadet (3 Jun 2010)

I was merely commenting on the way we score our test and how it is used at the College, not saying that we are any fitter than the rest of the CF. 

There are people who fail the test and in my opinion the consequences are not enough. Ocdts are given two years to pass the test before they can be kicked out of the ROTP program. If they pass a test during that two year period they must pass a certain number of tests a year (I believe 1) over their next two years at the College. People are not always kicked out if they do not meet that standard, some are allowed to graduate; however, they do so without an "RMC" degree. For those who fail, they are put on Supplementary Physical Training (SPT) and are up at 0530 four days a week to train for the PPT. Once they pass a PPT, even with just a 250 score, they are off SPT. Therein lies the problem, many do not adopt a culture of fitness, instead they battle every year to barely squeak by. That one test they do get by is enough to get them on courses like CAP, even though they shouldn't be there.


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## DexOlesa (3 Jun 2010)

Holy crap!! I mean I'm just about ready to pass the express but no where near ready for the PPT, Working as hard as I can and plan to be there by the time i get to RMC (I may not make it but I'm trying) I figure if I fail the first time at least after FYOP i'll definately be making it. How can they give you 2 years to try and pass it. Even I could do almost nothing  for two years and just take it easy building up my endurance and make it in 2 years. (This is not my goal I want to pass it first time). Well at least it appears I wont have to worry too much if i do fail it the first time around. geez


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## daftandbarmy (3 Jun 2010)

Some info on what the British require by way of comparison. I wonder how we stack up?

Here's the 'getting in the door' tests:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/jan/07/healthandwellbeing.fitness

And here's a progessive program designed to get you, the keen Guardian reader, up to 'trained soldier' standard. Notice the '4 x 12 chin ups', plus other stuff, that they recommend recruits be able to complete at the end of the 16 week course.

This 16-week fitness programme has been developed by the Army Physical Training Corps, and is based on the one that it issues to potential recruits to enable them to pass basic training. Make it to the end of level 4 (see below) and you'll have achieved the basic level of fitness required of a trained soldier ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2008/jan/07/healthandwellbeing.fitness1


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## bdave (3 Jun 2010)

Alea said:
			
		

> Thank you
> Then I will really have a talk with my trainer tomorrow  as I was never told to stretch before any type of exercise. Everyone always said that stretching cold muscles is not really doing anything.
> 
> Alea



I have also read this.
I do not stretch after warming up. I stretch at the end.


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## ballz (3 Jun 2010)

WRT Streching

There seems to be some confusion about what it means to stretch before exercising, and as to what cold muscles are.

Warming up:

There are a few ways that you can do this. Warming up just means getting your joints lubricated, and blood delivered to your muscles/tendons/ligaments, priming them for a good work-out.

You don't stretch cold muscles, but stretching before a work-out does not mean you are stretching cold muscles. I have noticed that most people advocating stretching before working out, have been talking about 5-10 minutes of running before the stretch. After 5-10 minutes of running, your muscles are no longer "cold" and static stretching is quite alright.

However, without that run or bike or whatever, your muscles are cold. This why there are dynamic (aka, moving) stretches such as high knees, running backwards, squat jumps, lunges, arm circles, etc etc etc. A lot of people seem to think they don't stretch during warm-up / before an exercise because they are doing these types of stretches. What they don't realize is they are stretching during their warm-up, as opposed to warming up and then stretching.

As for cooling down and stretching AFTER a workout, this serves a completely different purpose than warming up/streching before a workout. It enhances/maintains flexibility, and reduces muscle soreness. I actually slowly run and then walk for about 10 minutes after interval training and then stretch, since the slow run and walk also serve the purpose of reducing soreness. 

EDIT to add:



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> IMO, this debate over stretching/not stretching is soon going to be  :deadhorse:



Not if the "experts" are any indication... The status quo for stretching has changed back and forth and in between now for years.



			
				Alea said:
			
		

> Thank you
> Then I will really have a talk with my trainer tomorrow  as I was never told to stretch before any type of exercise. Everyone always said that stretching cold muscles is not really doing anything.
> 
> Alea



Stretching cold muscles is not the same as stretching muscles that have been running/jogging/etc for 5-10 minutes.

Ask your trainer whatever you like, keep in mind that not all trainers follow the same theory, not all trainers have the same certs, not all trainers are good or bad, and some of them are awful, not all trainers are experienced or inexperienced, and that not all theory stays the same, current, or relevant.

In other words, your trainer may do one thing, and the trainer at the gym across the street may do another. Neither one may be wrong, although one may be a hell of a lot more right...


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## PMedMoe (3 Jun 2010)

Hasn't this been covered ad nauseum in several threads?


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## aesop081 (3 Jun 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Hasn't this been covered ad nauseum in several threads?



Yes, and most of them had the requisite  :deadhorse:   and    :argument: to go with them.


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## Alea (3 Jun 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Hasn't this been covered ad nauseum in several threads?



I totally agree with PMedMoe... it has been covered ad nauseum! 
And it is always best to have some advices from Medical personal or experienced trainers when it comes to health/exercise.

Have a good day all,
Alea


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## Occam (3 Jun 2010)

Alea said:
			
		

> I totally agree with PMedMoe... it has been covered ad nauseum!



Ad nauseam even!   



> And it is always best to have some advices from Medical personal or experienced trainers when it comes to health/exercise.



Referring back to the article I posted previously - I would say the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (aka CDC) qualify as "medical personnel".   ;D


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## kratz (3 Jun 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> Ad nauseam even!
> 
> Referring back to the article I posted previously - I would say the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (aka CDC) qualify as "medical personnel".   ;D



She was sick and the a made it down the drain.  ;D

Much like the topic.


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## PMedMoe (3 Jun 2010)

Huh, never knew it was spelled that way.  Go figure.


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## Runnalls (8 Jun 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Also, without trying to be a smartass, there are some very very VERY obese soldiers in the Canadian Forces. Like, epic sized.
> Clearly they cannot pass a fitness test, be it a run or the (more applicable) BFT.  Do they face any repercussions?  Are they put on a sort of boot camp workout where they have to loose X amount of weight by X date or are they just left to their own?  A friend of mine's husband was a mechanic in the US army and after being put on a probation for being over weight and failing to get in shape, they kicked him out of the army.
> Do we have anything like that?




You automatically assume because of the weight that they are not able to complete their PT?

I'm 315 pounds and I can complete the PT without any problems at all, and infact I love doing it.  Allbeit, my height and body type let me get away with that weight a little bit easier than others, and I could stand to lose some body fat, but that kind of thing is all a work in progress.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Jun 2010)

Done, done and done.

This has already made it to the sewer.............for the millionth time.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Jun 2010)

Lastly, from Technoviking:

Another nine candidates were sent off courses from the Infantry School for failing to meet the Canadian Forces' Minimum Fitness Standard, to wit, the CF ExPres Test.  The failures ranged from pushups to the grip test.  As a reminder, pushups measures physical endurance and the grip test measures physical strength.
Info here
More detailed info, including the standards, is here
For info: it matters not that you can do 35 bad form pushups.  You must complete the pushups according to the standards as laid out in the manual.  

My advice to anyone who is going to the Infantry School, or any CTC school for that matter, is to train to the standard and to aim to exceed it.  Also, for serving members of the CF, there are adverse administrative measures that are completed if one fails an ExPres test, which include an Initial Counselling and remedial PT.  Further failure can result in release from the CF.  So, a cease training/recourse is not as bad as for serving members.  Also, take note that in the past, the school used to allow those who failed to meet the standard to carry on training.  Post course studies have shown that a significant percentage of these people failed to complete their course, usually due to injuring themselves.

Also note that the standard is being met by a very large majority of those assessed: on the order of 95%.  So, get fit and get training!


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