# Suspect in bomb plot was Canadian soldier



## armybuck041 (7 Jun 2006)

07 Jun 2006 06:25:16 EDT

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/07/wednesday-suspects.html

*More details were emerging Wednesday about an alleged bomb plot in Ontario and about one of the suspects and his alleged plan to behead Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

As well, there were also new suggestions about how the suspects may have had international connections.

The lawyer for Steven Chand, also known as Abdul Shakur, said Tuesday that his client is accused of wanting to storm Parliament, behead the prime minister and attack a number of sites, including the CBC building in Toronto.

A newspaper report on Tuesday said Chand had been a member of the Royal Regiment of Canada, a reservist unit, and that he had been given weapons training.

Military confirms connection

The Toronto Star said the military confirmed, but downplayed, Chand's military connection.

"He spent a large portion of his time in the Canadian Forces on leave of absence," Cmdr. Denise Laviolette told the newspaper.

"It looks like he did not complete his military trade training," she added.

Chand joined the reserves in June 2000 and served until April 2004.

His lawyer said Tuesday the charges against him came in an eight-page synopsis.

"My client's alleged to have been part of a plot to blow up Parliament buildings in Canada, storm the CBC, take over the CBC, as well as, among other things, behead the prime minister," lawyer Gary Batasar said.

Allegedly inspired by al-Qaeda

Police allege the accused  12 adults and five youths  were inspired by al-Qaeda and planned to make bombs to attack targets in Ontario. None of the allegations has been proven in court.

Elsewhere, the Times of London reported Wednesday that the 17 arrests in the Toronto area were actually linked to a much bigger international investigation.

"The arrest of 17 suspects, many of them teenagers, picked up in the suburbs of Toronto at the weekend is said to be the latest stage in dismantling a terrorist nexus," the Times reported in its online edition.

The report said the arrests came after a nine-month investigation.

"Intelligence agents in eight countries have patiently worked through a forest of e-mails and intercepted telephone calls."

Snipers inside and outside

As 15 of 17 suspects arrived in a Brampton court for a bail hearing on Monday, snipers could be seen on rooftops and heavily armed police officers were posted inside and outside the courtrooms.

Scores of media from both Canada and the United States lined up at the courthouse Tuesday to secure a spot inside. Family members of the suspects were met by throngs of reporters as they entered.

Defence lawyers asked that the bail hearings be postponed, saying they did not have enough time to prepare and had not seen the evidence against their clients.

The judge granted their requests, rescheduling most of the bail hearings to June 12, and the suspects were remanded into custody.

The lawyers also complained about a number of restrictions placed on their clients. They are in solitary confinement, under 24-hour surveillance and have been denied access to family members.

Donald McLeod said he and his colleagues have only been able to speak to their clients through Plexiglas and want private visits with them.

The defence lawyers also alleged that clients' rights were being violated because a guard in full riot gear was always present when a lawyer held a privileged conversation with a client.

They demanded the situation be changed or said they would go to court on June 12 to get a court order to be allowed to communicate with their clients in private.

All the adult suspects face terrorism-related charges:

The 12 men have been charged with knowingly participating, directly or indirectly, in the activity of a terrorist group. 
Those charges relate to activities in Mississauga, Ont., Toronto and the Township of Ramara, which is located about 150 kilometres north of Toronto. 
On Monday, six of the men were also charged with planning to cause a deadly explosion. 
Three of the suspects have been charged with importing firearms and prohibited ammunition, and supplying prohibited weapons. 
Ten of the men are charged with engaging in terrorism-related training. Residents in Ramara, a rural area north of Toronto, reported hearing gunshots from an area where men were seen dressed in camouflage gear. 
As many as 400 police officers and security officials were involved in the series of raids in southern Ontario that led to the arrests on June 2 and June 3, in the largest operation carried out under the Anti-terrorism Act. *


----------



## pbi (7 Jun 2006)

I hope this gives some pause to people who want to speed up Reserve recruiting by suspending or reducing security clearances.

Cheers


----------



## armybuck041 (7 Jun 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> I hope this gives some pause to people who want to speed up Reserve recruiting by suspending or reducing security clearances.
> 
> Cheers



X2


----------



## Jordan411 (7 Jun 2006)

Even more reason for our security clearances to be strict. Now because of this, perhaps even higher.


----------



## the 48th regulator (7 Jun 2006)

I do not think the security clearence is in question here, I would say that the interview process would be able to suss this out much better.

dileas

tess


----------



## pbi (7 Jun 2006)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I do not think the security clearence is in question here, I would say that the interview process would be able to suss this out much better.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



I'm not too sure about this. What questions would we ask him? "Are you an Islamic terrorist?" "Do you secretly harbour intentions of destroying Western society to restore Islam to its rightful place in the world?" "Do you buy large amounts of ammonium nitrate?" 

I just can't see interviewing by a recruiter, who may or not be trained in detecting and assessing criminal tendencies, as any kind of replacement for a background check.

Cheers


----------



## Hot Lips (7 Jun 2006)

Well...does this change the efforts to recruit more immigrants :
I agree with the ERC (as is, not a reduced standard) and the interview both being effective means for screening.

HL


----------



## Bzzliteyr (7 Jun 2006)

I agree, I don' think the security check would have caught any of these guys...  A more in depth interview process might help recruiters "filter" out bad people but judging the qualtiy of people coming through the training system ( I see them firsthand), the recruiting centers are desperate!


----------



## pbi (7 Jun 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> Well...does this change the efforts to recruit more immigrants :
> I agree with the ERC (as is, not a reduced standard) and the interview both being effective means for screening.
> 
> HL



It's not about "immigrants"-Timothy McVeigh was a good ol' boy, and most of the people recently arrested in the GTA appear to have been born here. Most immigrants are not a problem, and if we are going to limit military service to WASPS, we are going out of business, fast. The issue is about criminal and terrorist intentions, not about country of origin.

Cheers


----------



## the 48th regulator (7 Jun 2006)

Uhm,

And what security check do we do to a young kid in Highschool born and raised her, that comes from a well to do family, as some of this kids have?

Or someone who converts after the fact and hears the rhetoric from the imam at the prayer group he attends, as one of the lead characters has, i.e the main character of the article?  How would the security check have stopped that?

So we now make it even stricter for people to get in?  I would think that there are many techniques already out there used by other recruiters of business, Police, etc that use the right questions, wouldn't you agree, that will garnish the answers needed to see if the candidtat is fit for the job.

I may be out of the loop, but are these types of psychological questions being asked now?  Tell me how the security check would have caught these perps? 

dileas

tess


----------



## GAP (7 Jun 2006)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Uhm,
> 
> And what security check do we do to a young kid in Highschool born and raised her, that comes from a well to do family, as some of this kids have?
> 
> ...



+1  you try...but you don't get them all.


----------



## HItorMiss (7 Jun 2006)

I'm pretty sure people like this just slip through the cracks, I mean how many can you name off the top of your head that were involved in criminal activities after joining the the Forces, that are good 'Ol boy's born and raised in Canada?

I can 3 just as I sit here.

no amount of questioning would have identified this individual, I'm not saying there were not indicators but everyone has indicators of something in their behaviour.


----------



## pbi (7 Jun 2006)

IMHO the jury is out on the actual proven value of psychological testing as a real guarantee of anything. Again IMHO its value in the case of anybody who has already formulated an intent, and is smart enough to avoid detection, is minimal.

But, I will grant you one thing: if a person joins the CF before they begin their criminal or terrorist associations, then no interview or background check will prove anything. This poses a particular concern with Res soldiers, since most of their life is lived away from any form of military control or scrutiny over their associations. Although you could argue that there isn't much real control exerted over those of us in the RegF either, at least we are subject to the Code of Service Discipline 24/7. Even that, howevre, has not prevented some pretty nasty criminal behavoiur and association by RegF people over the years.

The only method I can see is an improved link between civilian and military criminal intelligence services, and more frequent security reviews of serving people. The danger here of course is that the cohesion of  the CF could be badly damaged by "ethnic profiling".

Cheers


----------



## the 48th regulator (7 Jun 2006)

Hey I agree, we would have to madify it or mold it for the military, 

But I do not agree tightening our security check, from the theme of the the posters on this site trying to get in, it already is a headache.

We knee jerk react and make it harder, forget about getting anyone willing to wait to get in.

dileas

tess


----------



## KevinB (7 Jun 2006)

Slippery slope.

Ideally we want more muslins in the military - especially arabic and dari speakers.  BUT when you are having a war waged against you from islamic radicals - it does make the screening issue hard.


----------



## pbi (7 Jun 2006)

To be fair, there may be a reverse argument here, albeit a shaky one. By entering the CF, a person submits themselves to a much higher level of documentation, investigation and scrutiny than most Canadians. Although I still don't believe that any of that will guarantee detection of a terrorist-in-training, what it does is establish a pretty firm and comprehensive data bank on an individual. They are no longer just some unknown kid sliding through the shadows in their ethnic community: the "system" knows quite a bit about them.

Cheers


----------



## Danjanou (7 Jun 2006)

I’m with Tess here. I seriously doubt any changes/improvements in the security check or interview process would have caught this kid. As noted he was a middleclass teenager from the 905 burbs, when he applied for and joined the RRC. Gee kind of sounds like about oh what 95% of the troopies in the Toronto Garrison or at least when I was in. 

Because his parents were immigrants we should have said no you can’t serve? Well based on the ethnic make up of my last rifle company (TorScots) had we gone that route, it that would have left um me and the CQMS as the only people in uniform. Most other units in the garrison IIRC were almost as diverse. 

I am in no way advocating a lessening of any procedures in place now. We need to pre screen and remove anyone unsuitable for military service for physical, medical and or emotional/psychological reasons. However, I seriously doubt anything would have “caught” this kid as I doubt at the time he was a “militant terrorist” (presuming of course he is guilty of course) and most likely turned or was turned later.

Someone mentioned McVeigh, well we have another example closer to home. Brent Taylor the leader of the Direct Action/Squamish Five joined the militia in 1978 and stayed a couple of years, and incidentally unlike this kid completed his training. In his case it was obvious he did so deliberately to gain the weapons handling and other training he wanted to pursue his radical agenda. No one knew that when he wandered into the recruiting office at the armouries on Burrard St.  In hind sight no one noticed it until after he was released and went on to blowing up stuff either.

What is needed at all supervisory levels is perhaps some vigilance in presently serving soldiers. Just as we watch (or should watch) for other warning signs such as for drug and /or alcohol abuse, PTSD, spousal abuse, depression etc. perhaps keeping an eye out for any warning signs (if such can be noticed) re this may be an idea.

Remember the case of the 101st Airborne Sgt, who was a convert to some brand of fanatical radical Islam in Kuwait just before GW2 kicked off and who tried to frag his BHQ. Possibly he could have been caught before hand had someone known what to look for? How about M/Cpl Matchee?

What I find most worrisome about this is the fact that the usual suspects in the hand wringing brigade, the CBC and the Toronto Star are making such a big deal out of this rather tenacious connection. As noted his military service as such was minimal and doubtfully much of a factor in his later actions. Anyone of us with time in can equate just how effective a terrorist or potential terrorist would be who from the looks of it failed to complete his weekend BMQ at Fort York and most likely spent his “military career” either ED&T, (“Sorry Sgt. can’t make the weekend ex, I have a test.”) or NES.


----------



## probum non poenitet (7 Jun 2006)

Perhaps we should weigh all applicants.

If they weigh the same as a duck, they're a terrorist.

Just spitballin'.


----------



## cplcaldwell (7 Jun 2006)

I'm not quite sure that beefing up the security check could do to much, besides adding another six months to an already interminable recruiting process. 

I think that what's implied here is twofold. 

First the Reserves, and perhaps to some degrees the Regulars as well will always attract a few misfits. By that I don't mean (exclusively) freaks, just people who don't belong in the system. 

The system however has this eerie way of weeding these people out. Think about it; how about the recruit course that starts with 70 and finishes with 35? How about the fanatical young 2Lt that never makes captain because he's always being berated by the old man for demeaning the troops? How about the angry MCpl that never makes WO because he doesn't get that Pathfinder course?

People come and people go. Mr Chand came and he went. He did not fit in. He was not a soldier. All good natured ribbing of the Royals aside, he was clearly not up to the Royal's standard. As much as this guy said he wanted to be a soldier, Cdr La Violette's remarks are telling. He wanted to be a soldier but did, it seems, not regularly go on FTX and he did not take a summer to finish (presumably) his SQ, so despite all his desires he lacked the commitment (read: discipline) to succeed.

I've seen a hundred guys like that fly through FYA and AA in the last fifteen years and I'll see another hundred before they throw me out.

No need for hand wringing on this one. Least wise, not on our part.

Second, as for the Globe and it's headline this morning.... Jeez I remember when the Globe and Mail was a really good paper and not just some sensationalist rag trying to pander to Canadians' fears by using the most tenuous of threads to connect the CF and some culture of lawless violence.


----------



## Wizard of OZ (7 Jun 2006)

probum non poenitet said:
			
		

> Perhaps we should weigh all applicants.
> 
> If they weigh the same as a duck, they're a terrorist.
> 
> Just spitballin'.



Ok that was funny

What about a pre-employment polygraph?

Most police forces are using it why not the military.

The MP's have poly techs in each region, train some more and use them for pre-employment.  Have the poly techs write the questions for the recuriturs and train them at what to look for.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (7 Jun 2006)

Hot Lips said:
			
		

> Well...does this change the efforts to recruit more immigrants :
> I agree with the ERC (as is, not a reduced standard) and the interview both being effective means for screening.
> 
> HL



I thought all these guys were born in Canada.

Much ado about nothing. Even if you suspect someone of having "suspicious" religious or political ideas, the Charter says you can't deny them employment based solely on their beliefs. Actions speak, thoughts aren't supposed to. Unless it is now a criminal offence to have beliefs? I spent 5 years or so wishing one of my WOs was dead; didn't make me a criminal.  Had I reached the stage of plotting his demise, that would be a different story, luckily he did himself in first.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2006)

We process about 3 to 4 times more than we actually intake.  So roughly 20 000 for 5000 actual enrollees.  We do we out a hell of a lot of people.  Not everyone that comes through the door is a stellar applicant.  Drugs, criminal records, odd behaviour and even attitude will get someone on the not list.

Some crazy people will get through.  Some of those get weeded out during the training process when their true colours start to show.  And some just make it in ansd do something bad that reflects badly on the CF.  It's hard to predict what someoen will do later on.  They may be awesome on paper or at the time.  But what happens to someone leter cannot always be the CFs fault.  A guy's wife cheats on him so he goes after the dude in the mess with a machete.  A couple of reservists kill a homeless person in Toronto, some guy on a recruit course kills a commisionaire while trying to steal C-7s etc etc etc.

We have 60 000 reg force and 25 000 reservists.  85 000 total give or take.  That's the size of some cities.  Find me a city of 85 000 people that has 0 crime or 0 msifits. 

The reality is that we will get bad apples.  Just like any country.  Look at the US for godsakes.

all we can do is our best to prevent it from hapening.  There is no magic solution to this.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (7 Jun 2006)

In other news some of the suspects worked at a gas station and another at McDonalds.  (well probably not but really does it matter).


----------



## Wizard of OZ (7 Jun 2006)

I heard one worked at Payless shoes   ;D

No there never is a fool proof solution to solve a problem.  But times have changed when it comes to personal applying for jobs.  I think it is time the CF raised the bar a little more, really what could it hurt as oppose to help.  That is the argument you need to look at.

Is it ok to recurit 5000 new people just to get them in or do you want 2000 people who you know are 1) who they say they are, 2) truly there for the job not just the training.

sometimes having the bar set high is a good thing.


----------



## Sapper41 (7 Jun 2006)

I'm with cplcaldwell on this one, this Steven Chand fellow seems to lack the foresight and discipline to complete his training. He seems to lack the focus to complete any task, makes me wonder how serious of a threat this guy actually was.  This could have been much worse for the CF, imagine him overseas as a driver a C-6 gunner or worse translator. The danger of this type of guy is that he is very susceptible to be moulded by others. I wonder what came first his conversion to Islam or joining the CF.

Hopefully the CF can continue to embrace other cultures into our ranks, we have to for our own survival and effectiveness. Drawing the security clearance line in the sand at the door of the recruiter will break the system.  Being able to recruit, train and employ soldiers is the greater need.  There is risk in not screening people (beyond enhanced) before they join the reserves but it is an acceptable one.  But more than any other time we must be vigilant when dealing with recruits without isolating individuals which will only excaberate the problem.


----------



## Wizard of OZ (7 Jun 2006)

Sapper41 said:
			
		

> I'm with cplcaldwell on this one, this Steven Chand fellow seems to lack the foresight and discipline to complete his training. He seems to lack the focus to complete any task, makes me wonder how serious of a threat this guy actually was.  This could have been much worse for the CF, imagine him overseas as a driver a C-6 gunner or worse translator. The danger of this type of guy is that he is very susceptible to be moulded by others. I wonder what came first his conversion to Islam or joining the CF.
> 
> Hopefully the CF can continue to embrace other cultures into our ranks, we have to for our own survival and effectiveness. Drawing the security clearance line in the sand at the door of the recruiter will break the system.  Being able to recruit, train and employ soldiers is the greater need.  There is risk in not screening people (beyond enhanced) before they join the reserves but it is an acceptable one.  But more than any other time we must be vigilant when dealing with recruits without isolating individuals which will only excaberate the problem.
> 
> ...


----------



## Centurian1985 (7 Jun 2006)

Wizard of OZ said:
			
		

> What about a pre-employment polygraph?
> Most police forces are using it why not the military.
> The MP's have poly techs in each region, train some more and use them for pre-employment.  Have the poly techs write the questions for the recuriturs and train them at what to look for.



Agree with the comment about the duck: +1 for humour.

Reference the other comments for screening, some of these contravene CHRA rules, which is why urine sampling and polyscreening is not part of the process.  They tried to put it in years ago but were challenged as violating human rights and had to remove it. 

Ref the training of recruiters, its not that simple.  Polygraph technicians are highly experienced and expert in their craft (although highly cynical), you cant just attend a 3-day training course and then know what you are doing.


----------



## Wizard of OZ (7 Jun 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Agree with the comment about the duck: +1 for humour.
> 
> Reference the other comments for screening, some of these contravene CHRA rules, which is why urine sampling and polyscreening is not part of the process.  They tried to put it in years ago but were challenged as violating human rights and had to remove it.
> 
> Ref the training of recruiters, its not that simple.  Polygraph technicians are highly experienced and expert in their craft (although highly cynical), you cant just attend a 3-day training course and then know what you are doing.



No they can't but the question to be asked and the resoponses to be looked at could be taught, It would be a lengthy process but in the end it could be worth its weight in say "ducks"

Then why is polyscreening an accepted pratice in the RCMP for Pre-empoyment in Alberta and all AB police agencies use it before you get an offer. If it is a violation of human rights? (question not being cynical)


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (7 Jun 2006)

Well it is Alberta afterall. ;D


----------



## Centurian1985 (7 Jun 2006)

Wizard of OZ said:
			
		

> No they can't but the question to be asked and the resoponses to be looked at could be taught, It would be a lengthy process but in the end it could be worth its weight in say "ducks"
> Then why is polyscreening an accepted pratice in the RCMP for Pre-empoyment in Alberta and all AB police agencies use it before you get an offer. If it is a violation of human rights? (question not being cynical)



There are specific rules for using the process, which the RCMP applies, in the third stage of the screening.  What is essential is to establish a BFOR (bona fide occupational requirement), which the RCMP has successfully claimed.  Personally I agree we should have one in the CF process, but dont know why the challenge was successfull.  Perhaps not enough polygraph technicians were willing to work for CF wages when the RCMP and other organizations pay so much more?


----------



## KevinB (7 Jun 2006)

IIRC the RCMP does not use Polygraphys...

Personally I think poly's suck -- they can be beaten - and you can fail them even if not guilty of things they are looking for (speakign from the perspective of someone who has doen both....)


----------



## Nemo888 (7 Jun 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Agree with the comment about the duck: +1 for humour.
> 
> Reference the other comments for screening, some of these contravene CHRA rules, which is why urine sampling and polyscreening is not part of the process.  They tried to put it in years ago but were challenged as violating human rights and had to remove it.
> 
> Ref the training of recruiters, its not that simple.  Polygraph technicians are highly experienced and expert in their craft (although highly cynical), you cant just attend a 3-day training course and then know what you are doing.



I had to pee in a cup, what are you talking about? Poly's are only as good as the screener, the machine is 20% at most..


----------



## 1feral1 (7 Jun 2006)

This guy is another wingnut convert, and for whatever reasons, who knows. We have had our share too, and one fantasiser obcessed with thte military, converted, went off to the FRY to serve there, was dissatisfied, returned to Australia, then went off to Pakistan to learn radical islam, then ended up being captured in A-Stan, and is now in Cuba whinging to be let go. Just another nutcase convert ratbag, and I hope he rots in Cuba, as does the majority of Australians. After all he was trying to kill allied soldiers, and too bad he was not killed on the batlefield himself.

I put this guy in the same bag of shyte as David Hicks. Google him if you care to.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Bomber (7 Jun 2006)

Living in Toronto must really blow, perhaps the States would like to host these fella's in thier Cuban Resort town, let them hang out with their brothers in arms, enjoy the sun and surf, and... Oh Shyte, lock em up, toss the key in the St-Lawrence.


----------



## TMM (7 Jun 2006)

Toronto doesn't blow(I can hear everyone to the East and West of me curse in disagreement...)

I do admit to having some fears in light of these events but I gave terrorism my own f-u by taking the TTC downtown and having dinner at the foot of the CN Tower. Doesn't help win the war but it's my little contribution to the battle.


----------



## Journeyman (7 Jun 2006)

TMM said:
			
		

> Toronto doesn't blow(I can hear everyone to the East and West of me curse in disagreement...)


I suspect the destuction of Toronto would be one of the _few_ things that would unite Canadians.


----------



## KevinB (7 Jun 2006)

TMM said:
			
		

> Toronto doesn't blow



Course not ---- it sucks  ;D


----------



## TMM (7 Jun 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I suspect the destuction of Toronto would be one of the _few_ things that would unite Canadians.



You're right. Just as many Canadians, myself included made a point to visit NYC after 9/11 I've no doubt Canucks would set aside their hating of my hometown to help the people left living in it.


----------



## Journeyman (7 Jun 2006)

Ri-iiiight.....that's were I was going with that   :-X


----------



## couchcommander (7 Jun 2006)

You guys ever heard the Arrogant Worms "Toronto Sucks" song?

"The rents too high, the airs unclean
The beaches are dirty and the people are mean
And the women are big and the men are dumb
And the children are loopy cuz they live in a slum
The water is polluted and the mayor's a dork
They dress real bad and they think they're New York
In Toron-tttoooooo, Ontariooo"


----------



## Wizard of OZ (7 Jun 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Ri-iiiight.....that's were I was going with that   :-X



Now id on't know my science very well but if you destroy the center of the universe then would that not leave a black hole ?  ;D

Seriously though, that would really piss alot of leafs fan off on the Rock.

See they plan to attack our Political or Finicial sectors and it makes the news and gets people scared.  You wanna piss a Canadian off you attack Rexal place when game 3 or 4 or 6 of the Stanely cup finals is on.

That get the country motivated.


Back on track now I hope.

Toronto is seen as the center of Canada (rightly or wrongly) more people from around the world can pick TO over Ottawa as our Capatial.  (americans don't count, most can't find Canada on a map).  That is why they target the city.


----------



## TMM (7 Jun 2006)

Wizard of OZ said:
			
		

> See they plan to attack our Political or Finicial sectors and it makes the news and gets people scared.



Great point about financial sectors. Hacking into and disrupting bank/credit card records would cause massive, in many cases, irreparable damage without having to shed a drop of blood.


----------



## paracowboy (7 Jun 2006)

Wizard of OZ said:
			
		

> (americans don't count, most can't find Canada on a map).


watch it.


----------



## canadianblue (7 Jun 2006)

> (americans don't count, most can't find Canada on a map).



Yeah, I doubt that, I think you've been watching a few too many episodes of the simpsons.


----------



## Freight_Train (7 Jun 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> IIRC the RCMP does not use Polygraphys...
> 
> Personally I think poly's suck -- they can be beaten - and you can fail them even if not guilty of things they are looking for (speakign from the perspective of someone who has doen both....)



The RCMP recently started using the polygraph again - http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting/polygraph_e.htm


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Jun 2006)

Wizard of OZ said:
			
		

> Now id on't  know my science very well, but if you destroy the center of the universe then would that not leave a black hole ?  ;D
> 
> Seriously though, that would really piss alot of leafs fan off on the Rock.
> 
> ...





> (americans don't count, most can't find Canada on a map



However, many Canadians are also geographically challenged these days. Especially, the ones that can't spell or use proper grammar and punctuation.



> That is why they target the city.



Unless your a world renowned expert on Islamic terrorism, this is only your opinion.


----------



## Infanteer (7 Jun 2006)

I don't think any heightened screening would have done anything.  Marc Sageman's profile on the "Jihadist's abroad" is that they are the most unassuming characters (as one poster said, they do whatever 95% of their fellow youth do) and that they do an about face and go hardcore.  The 9/11 hijackers, along with others profiled in his book, fit the bill and I'm sure our gang does as well.  These aren't people who have harboured ambitions of jihad since there upbringing in the madrassas; most of the time they abruptly leave quite secular lifestyles as their dedication to militant Salafism grows within their small group.

I think McVeigh, who from all accounts was a dedicated and motivated soldier in the US Army, is a similar case as well.


----------



## Trinity (7 Jun 2006)

TMM said:
			
		

> Great point about financial sectors. Hacking into and disrupting bank/credit card records would cause massive, in many cases, irreparable damage without having to shed a drop of blood.




Credit card transactions are backed up by computer in 3 different locations by each banking institution
if i remember correctly.  To do what you suggest is improbable and already planned for by risk analysts
in each company.


----------



## Centurian1985 (8 Jun 2006)

Freight_R031 said:
			
		

> The RCMP recently started using the polygraph again - http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting/polygraph_e.htm



Thanks for clarifying - I was informed they did but that previous reply saying they didnt threw me for a loop!  Why did they stop and when?


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (8 Jun 2006)

i have always had a few thoughts on this subject.

no large group of people no matter what the make up of the group is will you have 100 percent law a biding persons tring to join, or join or leave the group and be perfect for life. every group has it bad seeds. weed them out or what ever happens happens.

a lot of nut cases want to join the boy scouts, the army and yes even the girl guides. nothing can be done to weed these people out 100 percent of the time . some times every group needs some sort of nut case because the nut case is the perfect peg for the square hole.
Lee Harvey Oswald was one of the few, the proud the marnies. he was a good marnine just a screwball who ended up shooting a president.

so one guy  who had joined a res unit and ended up quiting and from the sound of things was not a very good soldier, who never finished training, does not make him an weapons expert. i am sure there are guys here have the same level of training and finished the courses, does that make them weapons experts?  I have my ql3 INF, i can still fire decently, clean and prepare my weapon for inspection and pass, but i am not no expert.  One or two range weekends a year does not make you anything but sadden it only comes a few times a year
Media found some facts and twisted them just a little. 
I read that in the paper and then read how the JTF2 was on alert for back up to the police if required. I am sure had it come down to having a high risk take down and having to face a SWAT  type police team and or the JTF2 all the range weekend exercises he was not going to be any match for the true Experts.

anyone check and see if any of those nice Canadians were boy scouts? i remember i being an expert at capture the flag games. 

one last comment

I was applying for my Green Card in the USA while I was married to an american, one of the boxes that  I had to check off was somethign worded like this.

Have you ever belonged to a group or want to join a group that had or was , is planning to over throw the government of the United States of America  by force?  check yes or no box.  as if anyone who did want to do such a thing would check yes box.  but i guess sometimes the easiest way  to find out is to ask directly  what  the intentions are of some people.


----------



## Wizard of OZ (9 Jun 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> However, many Canadians are also geographically challenged these days. Especially, the ones that can't spell or use proper grammar and punctuation.
> 
> Unless your a world renowned expert on Islamic terrorism, this is only your opinion.



Spelling and grammar is an art.  

Everything I write is my opinion unless i source it from somewhere which is kinda what I thought this form was.  A place to discuss our thoughts and opinions on specific articles.  

As for the American crack that was a joke, and it did not come from the Simpson's, but from Rick Mercer.  If I offended anyone I am sorry.

On topic

Other then the Parliament buildings being the seat of political power for the nation, Toronto is truly seen as the economic and financial hub of the country so in my opinion (for recceguy   )  That is why they would want to attack Toronto.

You have to wonder if the RCMP did not know of the impending takedown of this cell though.  Only a few days earlier they moved the PM and his detail from Crown Vics and I SUV to a fleet of armoured SUV's.  Coincidence or inside knowledge.  I remember hearing some bitching coming from the NDP about that and how the PM was not helping in the greenhouse gas emission area.

OK sorry that was a little off topic to.


----------

