# New (CBRN OP) Occupation and GEO Tech Questions!



## ShredBrad (4 Jun 2013)

G'Day!

    I have been in the training system for some time now and at first I tried ATIS Tech but did not work out after a second attempt. Then I selected three trades and waited for 2 months to find out they were not available and then picked another three trades and waited again for two months to find out again that they were not available.  I finally got WFE Tech which proved to be as equally as difficult as the first one and now I am waiting to see a BPSO Officer for one more kick at the can.  :facepalm:

    My first question is what is the Duty of a CBRN OP and how many weeks is the course and where is the course? ???

    My second question is about the GEO Tech course and how difficult the geospatial Software is to use.  I have done an interactive multimedia course at Algonquin before and Graduated and liked the Colleges pace and intructors but realize that the Canadian Military Education system is extremely fast!!! 

     I am going to apply for Supply Tech and RMS Clerk which is a farcry from what I was in before but need to get my foot in the door and can OT later once I have a trade under my belt!  

Thank you  for your time,
Pte Sutton
Brad Sutton
CFSME (Holding Troop)


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## medicineman (4 Jun 2013)

A quick google search generated this: http://www.cjiru-uiic.forces.gc.ca/ic-ci/cfgno-npcsfc-eng.asp

My guess is that you'll likely have as many problems with this as you did with your previous MOSID's, especially since it's a CANSOFCOM trade - the training is generally designed to weed out those that can't keep pace.  Also, because it's CANSOFCOM, you likely won't screen very well for it simply because of lack of time in a trade as a trained tradesman - just my opinion.

MM


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## ShredBrad (4 Jun 2013)

Thanks for the speedy response!  Looks like CBRN OP is for VOT and not COT and must be already trades qualified and at least fours years in as Cpl Rank!


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## McG (4 Jun 2013)

Why have you been failing in your pursuit of other occupations?  Is it a matter of aptitude for technical work?  Maybe you should try looking for a non-technical occupation?


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## ShredBrad (4 Jun 2013)

I guess I didn't have the Aptitude for ATIS. WFE failed off half the class in the Water Treatment Package and know that I needed more instructing from the teacher and less your an idiot and should know this already attitude!! :

Teacher was a Civy and an intellegent person but lacked instructing skills and would constantly contradict the material he was teaching!


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## 63 Delta (4 Jun 2013)

I'm not a Geo Tech yet, but I dont think youll find the course anyless demanding than ATIS or WFE Tech. As well, the Geo Tech course is run every fall, and as all the OT's were just given out for Geo Tech I cant imagine any spots are availabe. But a BPSO could always verify that for sure.

Any reason you cant go to a less technically inclined trade for the interm? Cbt arms, MSE OP, Sup Tech? You can always OT after you have your feet firmly on the ground. I think the last thing you would want to do is fail another course.


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## ShredBrad (4 Jun 2013)

I plan on applying for Sup Tech for my first option then RMS Clerk and then just trying to figure out what else to put down for the third?  I was going to put MSE Op as my second choice but it closed as of June 1st.


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## 392 (4 Jun 2013)

ShredBrad said:
			
		

> Teacher was a Civy and an intellegent person but lacked instructing skills and would constantly contradict the material he was teaching!



Did you and your classmates bring this to the attention of your Course NCO so that they could intervene? I can recall years ago when a math package used to be run for the 041 QL5A that they used to hire a civy teacher to conduct, we had a teacher who was less than stellar and wouldn't provide adequate instruction. A couple complaints to the Course NCO had the issue rectified and a proper instructor installed. It's amazing how when the system is employed as designed that problems get fixed.


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## ShredBrad (4 Jun 2013)

Hi Capt.,

     No one wanted to pipe up as we were four COR's and one OT that failed off course out of eleven and felt as though our asses were in a sling and didn't want to ruffle feathers.  We did mention in the course critique that instead of spending two and half weeks on fall arrest that maybe one of those weeks could be allocated towards the Water Treatment Package.

     I guess at the end of the day no one wanted to say anything as we just wanted another chance at a trade and felt if we said anything we would get looked at as complainers and get released!


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## McG (4 Jun 2013)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> I can recall years ago when a math package used to be run for the 041 QL5A that they used to hire a civy teacher to conduct, we had a teacher who was less than stellar and wouldn't provide adequate instruction.


I believe the civi in this case would be the same indeterminate public servant who has been teaching in CETS for years.  Different than the guy parachuted in as needed for the FETS math pakage.



			
				ShredBrad said:
			
		

> I guess at the end of the day no one wanted to say anything as we just wanted another chance at a trade and felt if we said anything we would get looked at as complainers and get released!


The PRB in front of the DCmdt with OC Stds as your assisting officer provides a venue for you to represent your predicament before any decision is made to cease training.  If you chose not to stand up for yourself when provided an oportunity, then you are the architect of your current position.


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## Canadian.Trucker (4 Jun 2013)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> As well, the Geo Tech course is run every fall, and as all the OT's were just given out for Geo Tech I cant imagine any spots are availabe. But a BPSO could always verify that for sure.


Geo Tech as of right now is short 30 positions, roughly 83% shortfall from the presentation the Chief of Mil Per CCWO just gave.
Just an FYI.


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## dapaterson (4 Jun 2013)

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Geo Tech as of right now is short 30 positions, roughly 83% shortfall from the presentation the Chief of Mil Per CCWO just gave.
> Just an FYI.



Short positions, or people?  Based on the spring 2013 production forecast, Geo Tech looks to be in pretty good shape.

As well, just because an occupation is short does not suggest that they will be immediately recruiting for that occupation.  There may be people already recruited for that occupation; there may be no scheduled training for the occupation in the near term; the occupation might be about to be restrucutred so training si being deferred... all kinds of reasons why people may not be recruited into a seemingly understrength occupation.


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## Canadian.Trucker (4 Jun 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Short positions, or people?  Based on the spring 2013 production forecast, Geo Tech looks to be in pretty good shape.
> 
> As well, just because an occupation is short does not suggest that they will be immediately recruiting for that occupation.  There may be people already recruited for that occupation; there may be no scheduled training for the occupation in the near term; the occupation might be about to be restrucutred so training si being deferred... all kinds of reasons why people may not be recruited into a seemingly understrength occupation.


From what I understood it was personnel, but the forecast is that recovery will take place within the next 3 years.


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## 392 (4 Jun 2013)

MCG said:
			
		

> I believe the civi in this case would be the same indeterminate public servant who has been teaching in CETS for years.  Different than the guy parachuted in as needed for the FETS math pakage.The PRB in front of the DCmdt with OC Stds as your assisting officer provides a venue for you to represent your predicament before any decision is made to cease training.  If you chose not to stand up for yourself when provided an oportunity, then you are the architect of your current position.



Regardless if it's a temp worker hired to instruct in FETS or the indeterminate civy teaching in CETS for years is irrelevant.  The fact of the matter is the CoC cannot fix what they haven't been told about. Had this young lad even bothered to take his 15 seconds of fame during the PRB and mentioned anything about the perceived lack of instruction, perhaps OC CETS who would have been sitting across the table from him could have made an inquiry of why one of his instructors wasn't applying the appropriate amount of proper instructional technique or maybe the appropriate Standards rep would have been tasked to do a little more content monitoring to confirm what was being (or not) done. I have seen quite a few people around this place lately (of all ranks) who seem to think they don't have to teach to the TP or refuse to listen to those with the experience who are consistently saying the TP isn't teaching enough.

In any case, as the OP has stated, he and the remainder of the CT'd pers didn't say anything for fear of "ruffling feathers" when specifically asked if they had any issues with the instruction by the CI during the PRB :


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Jun 2013)

For the OP, if you struggled with the math side of POET or WFE I _strongly_ suggest you take a long hard look at the MATH PIP for Geo Tech.


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## Towards_the_gap (4 Jun 2013)

Indeed... It's a little more in depth than simply using GIS software. You need to understand how it works, which means math math and more math.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Jun 2013)

I agree; the set-up instructions for a FOT (pictured above) are a _great_ trg aide.   >


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## Towards_the_gap (4 Jun 2013)

Meh...what other visual aide could I have given to show a least squares adjustment of a closed loop traverse, done having to show all work....


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## ShredBrad (5 Jun 2013)

Thank you for all your comments and support!  I would just like to say here at the CFSME the CoC are professional, frank, and fair!  The DCmdt and OC are fantastic, as well as the CoC of CETS, and the Directing NCO was completely professional and very inspiring!  

After further investigation I think it might be possible to get on with CBRN and feel as though this is the next quantum step forward for the CF and the security of its nation.

I also noticed that Fire Fighter has opened up again and might be something to consider as well.

Towards_the_Gap do you know [names removed for PERSEC] from the Ottawa Fire Department?


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## Journeyman (5 Jun 2013)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> The fact of the matter is the CoC cannot fix what they haven't been told about.


If, in fact, there is a problem.  The CoC may be fully aware of what's happening within their school and see nothing requiring fixing, as we have merely the opinion of one person, whose military track record is.....well, in his own words, ":facepalm: "


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## MikeL (5 Jun 2013)

ShredBrad,  you have a lot to learn about PERSEC.  If you want to post your own name on a public forum, well I wouldn't recommend it but go ahead.  But posting the names and work of other individuals publicly online is something you should remove unless those individuals are OK with it.


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## Teager (5 Jun 2013)

Take Skeletors advice especially if your wanting to go CBRN or any other SOF component. Last I checked you had to be trades qualified to apply. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.


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## 392 (5 Jun 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> If, in fact, there is a problem.  The CoC may be fully aware of what's happening within their school and see nothing requiring fixing, as we have merely the opinion of one person, whose military track record is.....well, in his own words, ":facepalm: "



Ordinarily, I would look at claims being made like this and not give them any thought past "that individual is whining because they were axed off a course". However, WRT less than stellar trg in this school, without getting into too many details, I can say with 100% certainty that substandard training in all Sqns has been identified and steps are currently being taken to address it. My point was that every single student, regardless of trade, qualification level or career status who goes to PRB for academic performance is quite literally asked if they "had any issues with the level of training or felt like they were not given enough training to prepare them for the PCs" and given the floor by the CI to state their issues. This is briefed prior to each and every one of them by OC Stds as well so there are no surprises or blank looks. If the student chose not to speak up when given the opportunity to address the issues, then the CoC cannot read minds.

And before anyone asks, the comment about the trg being known about was not due to a PRB incident, but rather another "should never have happened" gong show that happened recently.


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## PanaEng (5 Jun 2013)

Glad to hear that those issues are being addressed - hard to keep up to trg stds and tech stds when most courses are being reviewed and changed almost continuously.


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## 392 (5 Jun 2013)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> Glad to hear that those issues are being addressed - hard to keep up to trg stds and tech stds when most courses are being reviewed and changed almost continuously.



Believe it or not, that's a small part of the problem. There are a whole host of issues that have been plaguing this place for the last few years that are (hopefully) on track to being sorted. The biggest obstacle to proper fixes though isn't the near constant change in training plans (although that could be fixed easily enough if during the writing boards they sent the actual right people with the skills, experience and know-how instead of just whoever is just not tasked or always has the "good ideas"), it's the crazy pace we're trying to maintain which is preventing the proper AARs and time to fix the identified issues. There are some other issues, but I am not going to get into them on here as it won't be the slightest bit helpful in solving the issue


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