# I am fed up, it‘s time to take action!



## Argyll 2347 (3 Jan 2001)

Everyone at this forum should complain to every place we can (to DND, newspapers. magazines) about the current state of the Canadian Forces.

-Alot of the equipment is inadequete
-DND should hustle the CADPAT uniforms to release them to the full forces sooner
-Army Cadets needs to have the Army put into it
-Better care for the forces

Email me if you are with me

The DND comments URL is http://www.dnd.ca/eng/comment_e.html 

Albainn Gu-Brath


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## the patriot (3 Jan 2001)

What type of training do you do during the year?  I‘m wondering if you‘re Gold Star yet?  If so, what are you doing to put the "Army" back into your Cadet Corps.?!   Have you written up any exercises and taken them up to your Training Officer?  In a nutshell, have you taken what I‘ve suggested and spoken to your Cadet RSM about it yet?!

-the patriot-


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## Argyll 2347 (4 Jan 2001)

I recieved my silver star at the Christmas Dinner last month. 

Actually, I have planned an exercise that involves as much military as I could put in there.  My Training Officer says it‘s a good plan and we are most likely going to do it.

Right now, we are finished the star training for the year and are going to do optional training.  There is almost everything.  Fieldcraft, Shooting (the two I signed up for), Pipes and Drums (I am already a level 4 after going to basic (I have been playing for 5 years)), Highland dancing, drill and more I can‘t remember.

I am trying to get the whole Army cadet system to become more "armyish" not just my corps.  We are already trying to bend the rules so we can do military things. 

I have actually talked to the CO about my concerns and he supports me as well as other cadets in my corps.  My CO has fought so now cadets from our corps can go on exercises with the militia.

Albainn Gu-Brath

PS.  are you in cadets patriot?


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## the patriot (4 Jan 2001)

No, I‘m not a cadet.  I‘m just very aware of your system and what you young men and women do on your parade nights and the leadership programs that are available to you.  When you say, make the movement more "Armyish", are you looking for more field based activities?  When was the last time you guys had a range weekend?!  With CFB Borden near by, isn‘t it possible for a few of the Cadet Corps. to get together and do a range weekend?  By the way, what rifle do the cadets fire these days.  There was a time when cadets would fire the FN C1A1 full bore, without the .22 insert kit.  Also, it‘s good to see that you have a supportive CO.

-the patriot-


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## the patriot (4 Jan 2001)

By the way, I would suggest that you might want to brush up on your Methods of Instructions and Map and Compass for the National Gold Star Exam. You sound like you have the makings of a future Cadet CWO/RSM. I guess that‘s about one year away for you.

-the patriot-


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## Argyll 2347 (4 Jan 2001)

I have only been in cadets since September 1999.  Since then, we have gone to Borden once for a fieldcraft exercise, went shooting with the Lee Enfield No. 7 .22cal once, (i was only a cadet and made the shooting team and went to the Brig. Murdoch Competition too).  We only get to shoot C7s at CLI camp, I have only been to Basic.

People say I will be the next RSM.  We are having the change of command parade for the cadet RSM at the end of the month.  Then the next RSM is not going to be me.  There will probably be a few more, then I will be RSM.

Our corps isn‘t doing any more star level work except for green for the rest of the year, so next year I will work on my Gold Star.

I was the best Silver Star teacher, I was also good at Map and Compass.  We got some tips from the new inspector from London.  He is a Sgt. in the RCR and ex-airborne.  To me he is a very good soldier, with a chest of Tour medals.

Albainn Gu-Brath


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## G I JAY (4 Jan 2001)

I ALSO THINK CANADA NEEDS BETTER FORCES.ALL OF CANADAS TANKS ARE  ABOUT 20 YEARS OLD.IF A WAR DOES HAPPEN  WE WOULDENT STAND A CHANCE.CANADAS MILITARY IS GOOD BUT NOT VERY LARGE.WE NEED MORE TROOPS AND NEW VEHICLES.EVEN THOUGH VEHICALS ARE EXPENSIVE  CANADA SHOULD HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO BUY MORE(CONSEDERING HOW MUCH TAXES WE PAY) LUCKLY FOR US WE HAVE SOPPORT FROM MORE POWERFUL COUNTRYS LIKE FRACH AND GREAT BRITAIN IN CASE A WAR DOES START.


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## ocknod (10 Jan 2001)

Anyone on this board who has been around the block a few times, and I don‘t mean cadets will probably understand this message!

When someone gets on here and says Canada needs better forces, really has no idea what the CF is all about.  I realize that you probably meant better kit and vehicles, with that I agree.  I think the CF is the size it should and probably will always be.   If it gets to the point where we start mass recruiting just to bring up the numbers the quality of soldier will suffer.  Anyone out there who has taught on a QL2 knows what it feels like when the OC comes down and says we need good numbers of people graduating.  I can site a couple of courses that I have been a part of that the oc and PL WO stopped just short of "Everyone WILL pass this course!"  It was an experiment that failed.  Militia units are still today conducting recruit courses at the unit level.  How can that compare with six weeks of every day training on a base, with top-notch instructors.  

I think the CF should take a look at this open door recruiting policy and really weed out the chaff, before the level of soldier in the CF drops off to the level of our friends south of the border.  The almight U-S military has turned into a three year holding cell for wanna-be college kids.   

I guess to sum up, Canadian soldiers are considered some of the best in the world, and if we change our standards when it comes to recruiting, then the best equipment in the world will not help!

SECURITAS
OCKNOD


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## echo (10 Jan 2001)

IM A LANCE CORPORAL NOW!!!!!!!!!( i *think* thats how you spell it)
WOO HOO!!
(sorry bout the caps,im just happy)
actually,i havent gone on the recruit course yet so im technicly a RECRUIT lance cpl(technicalities are lost on me *laughs*)


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## Travis Silcox (13 Jan 2001)

echo: Lance Corporal eh? that would be a Corporal in the CF right?


I got alot of things out of Cadets (i‘m in the process of joining the Army Reserve, i‘m 16) 

I learned ALOT of drill (which sorta sucked)
I learned -basic- hand signals
and a bunch of other stuff like rank structure, clean up after yourself. 

to tell you the truth, i‘d rather join the Army than stay in cadets, 

what‘s the point of shooting a weapon in cadets? will you ever use it because Canada wants you to protect it? probably not.

My advice to you is to join the army as soon as you hit 16

good luck to you in whatever you do
Travis Silcox


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## 2 Charlie (13 Jan 2001)

Whoa on the join when you hit 16 stuff there TS.  Bad, really bad advice.  

Ocknod points out that with an over burden of recruiting, the quality will drop off.  

Don‘t get some bursting at the britches kid to start thinking such crap.  Do you want echo to become the lowest common denominator for what will inevitably be a lowered standard for the CF.

Echo, do yourself a favour, enjoy cadets, I can admit it was probably the greatest time I ever had wearing any type of uniform.  But if I say anything in this here little den of thoughts on the net, finish your education.

Education wasted in youth is, longed for in adult hood.  Don‘t blow it.  When I was 16, I almost did such a thing.  I had this old RCR infantry Sgt at CFRC put me straight.  He actually scared the shit out of me.  So I finished high school got some life experience and then joined.

I will never forget it and the fact that education is a non-stop journey.  

The desire to soldier for some youth is almost insatiable, the belief that you are invincible, the need to be part of something, wanted.  Well echo that lasted until the first time I came under fire, real fire.  When you are half a world from home and it is just you and some poor driver, the world gets real big and your piece of real estate gets real small.

Lets be a little more ethical here folks, we can have our little tete de teteâ€™s between each other, but beware the advice you disseminate.  For those with a bit of TI, lets police this stuff up a little better.


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## echo (13 Jan 2001)

like i said in my old post.
i intend to join the reserves after i graduate (which is grade 12,i dont get grade 13 anymore u c).
& i dont intend to make a career out of the CF either.
my ambition‘s to be either a electrical engineer or a psycologist 
(or be an electrical engineer with a degree in psycology)


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## RCA (13 Jan 2001)

First things first you can be a member of the reserves and still go to school. But I agree it would be extremely foolhardy to drop of school for any reason much less join the military.

Next I keep hearing this bullshit about lowing standards to get more people to join. What standards are we talking about. females, muslims, the legally blind, those incapable of  doing 20 pushups??- what. If you are a member of the Militia you will have noticed by now poeople aren‘t exactly beating down the doors to join. (the Reg F adre in the same boat). I would be willing to take anyone who is does not have any physcial affications (ie wheelchair) who has the geniune desire to be a soldier. As a NCO it is my job to train that person to our standard not eliminate them before they join.

Ubique


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## 2 Charlie (13 Jan 2001)

RCA, from the horses mouth, Col Gordan Grant.  

Where else can you get a job that trains you in high tech, pay you $41,000 a year with out necessarily a high school diploma.

Hmm, tells me that we will be lowering the education level to pre ‘85ish.  If you paid attention this past week, the recruiting system let it be known that regional quotas, etc are gone.

So, yes RCA, if someone wants to be an infanteer or a jet jock, all the power to them.  But I see the epic BS of the 80‘s again were the majority of the recruits will come from economically depressed regions.  That‘s not a prob, but to lower the education standards to accomidate this, yes I have a prob.  If we want the best candidate, then make the incentive to join more realistic.

Don‘t lower the standard and make the CF into an over rated make work project.  It is a fact that we are screaming for people and it will get worse, but at what cost too make it better.  Shake your head and get your composure around this, the hords are not beating a path to our door, gee I wonder why.  Those who not that long ago were deemed undesireable will soon be making up your courses.

If we truly want the best then we have to make our offer a little better.  Of interest, there is a bit of consternation as to why one of our largest groups from whom we draw a large percentage of recruits is drying up.  Those of families with a military history, amazing, wouldn‘t have anything to do with seeing the truth up close.

Next


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## 2 Charlie (13 Jan 2001)

Sorry there folks, keep forgeting that the recruiting age for the militia and reserves is 16.  My apologies to TS.  

Hey echo, RCA is on the money.  Just don‘t forget to enjoy your adolescence, you will grow old, but you can never grow young.

Cheers


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## Gunner (14 Jan 2001)

Hmm, that interesting about the grade 8 education.  I think Col Grant may have misquoted hmself.  I‘d be very surprised if the education level was lowered back to that level again.  The CF will continue to take the best applicant for the jobs aval.  It‘s a good job especially for someone trying to find themselves out of high school.

It‘s been such a long time since the CF was on a hiring spree that it is no wonder that the youth today don‘t really consider it.  We definitely need some good inspirational recruiting video‘s...be all you can be...find a future in the army!  Oops that US isn‘t it!


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## ocknod (16 Jan 2001)

Anyone that has been around a while, since the late 80‘s can see the decline in the quality of soldier that is graduating from QL2.   Course commanders are under pressure to graduate troops so that reserve and even reg force unit numbers are up, to get more money from the govt.   My point is i wouold rather have a smaller number of checked out troops over a increase of middle of the road troop anyday.   Hockey and NFL Football are in the same boat.  The more expansion teams that are added to the leagues the more watered down the product gets!


SECURITAS
OCKNOD


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## Gunner (16 Jan 2001)

Ocknod, I have no doubt that when your instructors put you through your basic training in the 80s they probably felt the recruiting centres were scrapping the bottom of the barrel.  Everyone feels that way about the recruits coming in as our expectations are high because we suffer from selective memory about our own difficulties during training.  There are not many born Warriors and they must be trained...the better the instructor the better the soldier.

The 90s were the first time we (the army) tried to justify and enforce a standard that was more than based on the whim of the instructor.  In 1994 I had instructors come into my office demanding a candidate be tossed of the course because the recruit couldn‘t "handle it".  The reason for this was because the recruit wasn‘t motivated enough and looked sloppy.  How long had the course been on?  About two days.

It‘s not as easy to get recruits or soldiers tossed off courses these days.  It takes time, administration and hard work.  While I share you sympathies about the fate of the NHL, etc.  It‘s not quite the same situation when the CF is hovering around 60K....there are alot more Gretsky‘s, Lemieux‘s, Messiers waiting to be found and join our "hockey team".

Gunner sends...

PS - An old piece of wisdom - There is no such thing as a bad candidate only bad instructors.


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## 2 Charlie (16 Jan 2001)

I think you ref a piece by Napoleon.

There are no bad soldiers, just bad Colonels.


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## ender (6 Mar 2001)

sorry to ressurect this thread but...

Someone said it was a mistake to quit cadets and join the army when you are 16.  I have to disagree.

Many of the soldiers I know who were in cadets have a huge chip on thier shoulder, and thier soldier skills are patchy.  One of my friends from my unit was in cadets and is a good guy, but he doesn‘t tell people he was in it.

I don‘t think cadets are soldiers by any strech of the imagination.  It‘s more analogous to boy scouts.

The rate of pregnancy among female cadets is really high.  And smoking, and drug use... (all anecdotal evidence because they don‘t publish these things)

And it really annoyed me when I was on my QL3 working my butt off to get my engineer cap badge, and some little kid in the canex is wearing it..

And I don‘t like the fact that we are supossed to salute cadet officers.

If you are a real keener and want in cadets, go for it.  But as soon as you can, join the real army.  High school is the best time to join the reserves because you have your summers off.

what‘s the general consensus?


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## dr_valkyrie (6 Mar 2001)

The military is doing more for the troops today than they have in decades. Bear with the powers that be. They really are working for the best interests of all concerned. It‘s Treasury Board that limits their progress..not any lack of concern on part of the CF.


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## echo (7 Mar 2001)

where‘d u get the info on the dem cadet pregnacy thing ender?
an if that pregnancy thing is true thats pretty sad because i  know that a most cadets have enough sense t‘use the condoms (a mighty ****load i hear) that the camps provide(i‘m assuming that the *deed* is done during camp).


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## ender (7 Mar 2001)

anedotal evidnece from about 10 years ago.  They don‘t publish statistics on that sor t of thing.

Perhaps this was before condoms were made availiable. (and I‘ve also heard the stories of condom machines running out at cadet camps)

The point I was trying to make is that cadets isn‘t nessesarily good for the kids in it.  I think if parents knew half the stuff that went on, they wouldn‘t want thier kids there.


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## the patriot (9 Mar 2001)

Well that just goes to tell you that you‘ll find rednecks in all areas of life.  Teen pregnancy, smoking, and underage drinking are societal problems that plague your local high school football team...  The consensus here at least is that there are rotten apples everywhere. If you are to degrade the whole cadet system, you are very sadly mistaken.  The kid in the Cannex wear‘s your capbadge with pride and in your honour. You are his role model.  ACER ACERPORI.  "As the maple, so the sappling."  That is the motto of the Army Cadet system.  And by the by.  If this was happening in front of you, then why did you not do anything to stop it (all the sinful corruption at cadet camps etc...)?!  Last time I checked, the most senior infantry regiment in the country had a motto along the lines of "NEVER PASS A FAULT".  You may wish to take heed to that before you slag quite a few successful people in the regular force and the primary reserve who are former cadets.

-the patriot-


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## ender (10 Mar 2001)

since I wasn‘t ever in cadets, none of said "sinfull corruption" ever happened infront of me, I heard it from other people who had been in cadets.

If I see something happening that I know is wrong, I do my best to stop it.  Like I went to the recrutiting centre on time to complain about the treatment of a friend of mine that joined up. (the pt instuceter told her to do what was practically diamond pushups for her test, she passed anyway, but it seemed like systemic discrimination to me)  I try to pick my battles, but I don‘t let important things slide.

I know some good soldiers who had been cadets.  I also know some crappy soldiers who had been cadets.  I really don‘t think that thier experiences in the cadet corps helps them to much when they join the army. (if they join the army)  I also think it‘s not worth DND money to fund what I see as glorified boy scouts.


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## garb811 (10 Mar 2001)

Ender:

These aren‘t really fair statements to be making IMHO.  Do you realize that all of these allegations could be made of the Militia by the Reg Force...well, they actually all have at one time or another, with the probable exception of the smoking.

Do some ex-cadets in the Militia and Reg Force have a chip on their shoulder? Sure.  Do some ex-Militia in the Reg Force? Sure. Some ex-Regs who transfer to the Militia on release? You bet. Of course, civies have chips on their shoulders as well.  If the person is an egomaniac the person is an egomaniac... 

Regs, Militia and Cadets all have their role to fill and everyone should be sensitive to that and not make it a habit to judge the collective on the faults of a few.  Cadet training does not equal Militia training does not equal Reg Force training.

Condoms.  They‘ve been available for ages and not from condom machines which run out.  Cadets on course, staff cadets and CIC officers on staff have very strict rules regarding frat while at camp and if caught it‘s a guranteed trip home with probable dismissal from their Corps and a possible charge for the CIC officer.  Does sex happen? Sure, in isolated instances but it‘s not like they‘re a bunch of rabbits.

"I don‘t like the fact that we are supossed to salute cadet officers."  By this statement I assume that you mean the CIC (Cadet Instructor Cadre) officers and if that is the case it‘s apparent to me that you don‘t understand the reason for the salute.  Next time you see one of those cadets wearing your cap badge, walk over and ask them why it is officers are saluted.  If they have been in any longer than a year they‘ll be more than happy to give you the answer and probably a detailed history of the origin of the salute we use today as well.

Keep an open mind and you‘ll be surprised at what sneaks in.


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## ender (11 Mar 2001)

garb811,

Thinking about this I have realized that I am being very hostile, even distainfull, towards cadets.  I think I am making judgments based on the first few ex-cadets who I met, who were idiots.  And that‘s not fair to the majority of cadets, most of whom are keeners who like army stuff.

I am aware of the origins of the salute, that you arn‘t really saluting the officer you are saluting the Queen‘s commision.  But I don‘t undersand why CIC officers hold any sort of commision.

My main beef about cadets is that I think DND money could be better spent elsewhere.  But I realize that‘s what some reg‘s think about the reserves.

Aplogies to any cadets or ex-cadets on this forum whom I may have insulted.


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## echo (11 Mar 2001)

apology accecpted.


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## Soldier of Fortune (24 Mar 2001)

I‘m in the Army Cadets and I think its great. When im 16 i going to join the reserve. No, I will not lose my education, i will only work evenings and weekends. Try e-mailing one of the reserve corps, they tell you everything you need to know. Cadets is great, espeacily if you are planning on having a career in the CF, teaches you lots of stuff. Sometime next month my Corp is going to Borden for live shooting. Im new and have to pass a test so i don‘t know if ill be shooting, but we use .22s. Does anybody know what the test is like?


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## ocknod (31 Mar 2001)

Cadets to the left, Cadets to the right...Every where I look people posting on this board are cadets....Is there anyone here who is not a cadet...I‘m not putting your guys down here, but I really don‘t think you are in a position to comment on what is going on the C-F until you have first hand knowledge.  Sure you go away to cadet camp for a couple of months each summer.  BIG DEAL.  Wait unil you at least get into the reserve or up to the Regular Force before you get on here and complain about how bad things are.   I mean I see posts from you guys saying that Canada needs better equipment, weapons, and troops.   How can you as a cadet make that jusdgement.  The lasst time I saw cadets in action they were on the parade square with spit shone parade boots, and using FN rifles and even old 303‘s.   Get with the program.  Your comments are always welcome, but done carry much weight unless you have been in the middle of some god forsaken training area when your broken down piece of s*** truck quits, or your 77 set radio craps out on you in the middle of a contact, or your just can‘t train because there is no money, or the equipment is not available.   

SECURITAS

OCKNOD


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## Master Blaster (2 Apr 2001)

Ocknod:

The masterful warrior picks his battles and his victories from the blur of battle.

I suggest that while you and I and many others on this net are more than aware of what these young warriors will encounter while serving our Grand Lady, they will still have to make our same old mistakes, learn from them, adapt and overcome and become the old WarHorses that will chafe and chastise the young of the future.

From some of what I‘ve seen from the various posts, ‘our‘ future may not be secure but some will carry the torch for us forward to the next generation or warriors.  Many will pay the supreme price but some will survive to teach, learn and teach some more.

I learn everyday and I think that you do too.

As now, more than ever before...

Dileas Gu Brath


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## echo (2 Apr 2001)

u can damn well bet i‘ll be a torch carrier


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## the patriot (23 May 2001)

For the comment that DND money could be better spent elsewhere......  Did you know that practically over 90% of the Army Cadet population enlisted in the Royal Canadian Army in 1939 at the outbreak of WW II?!  Now if a World War broke out today, where do you think the majority of your recruit pool would be coming from?!  Without that recruiting pool you would not have the stripes on your arm that allow you to earn the wage that you get bi-weekly from NDHQ.  Furthermore, cadets train under the auspices of the Reserves and Regular force.  To see a little more of what cadets do, take a look at Canadian Military Units under User submitted links.  There are quite a few cadet units accross the country that are not "Boy Scout" units.  The Cadet Parachute Course is exactly the same as the Regular Force CF Basic Parachutist course.  Actually, it is two weeks longer.  Correct me if I am wrong, but Boy Scouts DO NOT have a para course on their training program.  And oh yes, cadets have a biathalon program which without Myriam Bedard would not have won her Winter Olympic Gold Medal.

-the patriot-


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## Gunner (23 May 2001)

The Patriot,

I‘m not sure what set off your rant but you have to accept that cadets are simply a youth organization, not so different from the scouts program or 4H.  It is sponsored by the CF and it naturally has a military flair and it provides the building blocks that will assist someone who decides to join the Regular or Reserve Forces.  However, the amount of military training is minimal.  Any youth organization will make a child a better citizen.

By the way, if scouts want to go parachuting, there are lots of companies that will throw you out of an aircraft after a couple hours of training...it‘s not that big a thing any more.


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## ender (23 May 2001)

Also, I don‘t really think you can use WW2 recruiting figures to demostrate anything about todays cadet movement.  An auful lot has changed since then.  If I wanted to make a point I could use WW1 recruiting figures, but it really would have no relavence on today.

I still think the the cadet movement, while it may be a useful youth organization, shouldn‘t be funded by DND.


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## John Nayduk (24 May 2001)

Lots of good points and counter points.  I remember the cadets of the 70‘s (holy ****, I‘m old!) with the kaki shirts, pants and puddies.  Things have changed alot, not necessarily for the worst.  I also remember that in the reserves (joined in 1980 and still in) that if you tried to exchange your combat uniform, you hoped that someone else was finished with it first.  We‘ve come a long way.  As far as personal kit goes, the gortex combat uniforms are damn good.  We are making progress, maybe not at the pace we would like but we are going in the right direction.  If you look hard enough, you‘ll find fault every where.  Want to hear about the crap going on inside big corperations?  If you don‘t like the level of recruit you‘ve got, YOU take the responcibility to train the soldier.  You never know, you may need that piece of s**t to save your ***  in some faraway place some day.  It‘s up to us to develop the kind of soldier that will wear the hat badge of our Regiments.  Just for fun, look up the guy that taught you on your recruit course and see what they thought of you when joined.


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## Soldier of Fortune (25 May 2001)

What exactely is a puddi? I know it is a thing that goes around your ankle that goes up to your knee, but what is the pepuse of it?


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## John Nayduk (25 May 2001)

When worn with the ankle boots, it is supposed to give you support much like the high top combat boots do. The ones we wore, when done right, had three wraps and the tail was folded and tucked in.  You could march all day and feel freash as a daisey (in theory).  I surprised I remember this stuff, like gun drills, it stays with you.


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## John Nayduk (25 May 2001)

P.S.
Did I mention the wool "hose tops" we wore with the puddies?   You ended up looking like you just stepped out of North Africa circa 1944.


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## the patriot (27 May 2001)

Ender,

The Army Cadet movement is funded by the Lord Strathacona Trust Fund through DND.  It is not costing the Canadian taxpayer a single cent whatsoever.  For more history and to gain a clearer picture, there is an informational site that I will link for you here.
http://www.wincom.net/~59army/history.html 

-the patriot-


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## Flakes (28 May 2001)

I‘ve read with interest the posts about the cadet corps (learned a few things as well). The cadet corps serves another very important, unmentioned function and that is a place where our children of military families can make new friends.  I know to many of you this probably doesn‘t sound like a terribly important function but as a military wife, mother, daughter I know first hand of the value of having something in common with other kids when you find yourself at yet another Base.  For many military children the Cadet Corps is their lifeline.  So keep up the good work, many thanks to the many who give of their time and expertise to continue this valuable service and tradition.


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