# Shooting in Carcassonne: 17 wounded when french soldier fires on crowd.



## wannabe SF member (30 Jun 2008)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23945207-26040,00.html

Apparently, someone someone swapped blanks with live rounds.


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## TrexLink (30 Jun 2008)

Wonder if the Bastille is still open?


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## Danjanou (30 Jun 2008)

TrexLink said:
			
		

> Wonder if the Bastille is still open?



Not funny.

Some more info
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7480483.stm


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## Sigger (30 Jun 2008)

2 Soldiers and 15 civvies hit? 

You would think a Sgt. Paratrooper would know to inspect his rounds/mag.  Jeez.


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## Danjanou (30 Jun 2008)

Sigger said:
			
		

> 2 Soldiers and 15 civvies hit?
> 
> You would think a Sgt. Paratrooper would know to inspect his rounds/mag.  Jeez.



My thoughts exactly. I was also wondering does the FAMAS use a BFA?


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## Bob Terwilliger (30 Jun 2008)

His magazines would have been loaded prior to the event. Perhaps someone with a beef swapped his magazine with one with ball rounds. It would be easy to hide, just top off the mag with 2 blank rounds, he would not have noticed.


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## George Wallace (30 Jun 2008)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> My thoughts exactly. I was also wondering does the FAMAS use a BFA?



I would imagine so.  In that case there should be damage to the wpn.  If there was no damage to the wpn, then I would be highly suspicious.


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## Danjanou (30 Jun 2008)

Bob Terwilliger said:
			
		

> It would be easy to hide, just top off the mag with 2 blank rounds, he would not have noticed.



You'd think he would have noticed the recoil though as well as the fact the people he was "shooting" at were being hit and the blood sprays etc.


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## Bob Terwilliger (30 Jun 2008)

You would think so. So that leaves the other possibility open, that it was intentional.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Jun 2008)

Rather than speculate on someone's training and mental state, an equipment failure or a conspiracy theory, I'll content myself with knowing that there were no deaths and everyone injured appears to be recovering. I'll leave the conjecture and questioning to the French authorities.


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## Blackadder1916 (30 Jun 2008)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> My thoughts exactly. I was also wondering does the FAMAS use a BFA?



Yes.  As can be seen on the weapons in the below photo.  However, while firing a live round with the BFA still on will "usually" result in severe damage to the weapon, it "may" simply result in the BFA being projected forward and the weapon continuing to function.  Once saw someone put a live round through a C1A1 with BFA that did that (and a couple of additional rounds after the BFA went down range).  The operator of the weapon should notice something is wrong (different) but depending on the circumstances it may not immediately register.


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## Sigger (30 Jun 2008)

Bob Terwilliger said:
			
		

> Perhaps someone with a beef swapped his magazine with one with ball rounds.



Thats a big-ass beef.


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## Rodahn (30 Jun 2008)

Sigger said:
			
		

> Thats a big-*** beef.



It's been known to happen before.... Ask the thumperhead who had his bedspace blown up in the barracks in Chilliwack due to some suspected hankie panky in the eighties......


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## Blackadder1916 (1 Jul 2008)

Some additional info about this incident from the International Herald Tribune.  Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act.

*Stunned France wonders how military exercise went wrong*


> By Katrin Bennhold Published: June 30, 2008
> 
> PARIS: It was supposed to be an open house to give the wives and children of the elite soldiers in the regiment a glimpse of their heroism in all those months of fighting far away from home.
> 
> ...




*French Army chief resigns over shooting accident*


> By Katrin Bennhold Published: July 1, 2008
> 
> PARIS: The chief of staff of the French Army resigned Tuesday, two days after a soldier fired real bullets instead of blanks during a military show exercise and injured 17 people.
> 
> ...


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## geo (1 Jul 2008)

Hmph... guess that their rules and regulations are about to be rewritten....


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## FastEddy (2 Jul 2008)

Bob Terwilliger said:
			
		

> His magazines would have been loaded prior to the event. Perhaps someone with a beef swapped his magazine with one with ball rounds. It would be easy to hide, just top off the mag with 2 blank rounds, he would not have noticed.




Not to appear cynical, but don't we tell our children "not to play with guns" and our adults "don't point a gun unless you intend to use it (or intend to shoot someone)". But to add realism in training, our Military do it every day.

With regard to this incident and investigation its already been established , Who, Where, What and By Who, the remaining question is  WHY ?. I wouldn't like to be investigating this one !.

As for the comments and speculation made here, the only constructive and valid one is by "Bob Tenwilliger".

Cheers.


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## Duke_The_Patriot (2 Jul 2008)

Wouldn’t the soldier have stopped firing after seeing the first five people hit? Why would he be pointing his weapon at civilians during an exercise? That’s French screw ups for ya.


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## Sig_Des (2 Jul 2008)

Duke_The_Patriot said:
			
		

> That’s French screw ups for ya.



Uh huh. And you know this because of your long and traveled career in the CF, possibly working alongside with the French Military in Lebanon or Afghanistan I imagine?

Maybe interesting to you:

http://www.thestar.com/World/Columnist/article/301987

I'd avoid generalizing if I were you, especially if you haven't seen them in action.

Would a grenade in a backyard be an example of a Canadian screw up for you?


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Jul 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Uh huh. And you know this because of your long and traveled career in the CF, possibly working alongside with the French Military in Lebanon or Afghanistan I imagine?
> 
> Maybe interesting to you:
> 
> ...



Or using the wrong type of pole to push explosives through a tube. Lots of Canadian made mistakes have happened as well, this is truely sad and the flushing sound you hear is many careers going down the drain. Not to mention the post event tramu and healing for the injured.


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## Duke_The_Patriot (2 Jul 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Uh huh. And you know this because of your long and traveled career in the CF, possibly working alongside with the French Military in Lebanon or Afghanistan I imagine?
> 
> Maybe interesting to you:
> 
> ...




Actually having been to France many times to visit my Father, who lives Mutzig.  He has close friends of the 44e Régiment de Transmissions (44e RT) Electronic Warfare Regiment Recon brigade in Mutzig, which allowed me to partake in some of their exercises. I Have in fact, seen them do many mistakes in training. PM me if you want a list.


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## Duke_The_Patriot (2 Jul 2008)

You are both correct however. I did not mean to offend anyone, but I have seen first hand inccidents of French military personall (as i am sure of any country) make some mistakes.


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## George Wallace (2 Jul 2008)

Duke_The_Patriot said:
			
		

> ........., which allowed me to partake in some of their exercises. I Have in fact, seen them do many mistakes in training. PM me if you want a list.



Now let me get this straight; you are a 19 year old Pte, Infantry, in the Reserves, and you have partaken in Exercises in France with your father's 'friends' in a French EW Unit.  Looking at some of your other posts, something just isn't right here.


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## Run away gun (2 Jul 2008)

Duke_The_Patriot said:
			
		

> You are both correct however. I did not mean to offend anyone, but I have seen first hand inccidents of French military personall (as i am sure of any country) make some mistakes.



Did you march across Corsica with the French Foreign Legion too? Or did your father not know anybody in that Regiment?

There is a little more to going out on training exercises with an army than knowing people who know people. Let alone another nation on the other side of the world.


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## Sig_Des (2 Jul 2008)

Duke_The_Patriot said:
			
		

> I Have in fact, seen them do many mistakes in training. PM me if you want a list.



Nah, you can keep your list.

I've seen mistakes made by Portuguese Airborne soldiers, Romanians, American, and *gasp* Canadians.

My point is, you cannot generalise on one soldiers mistake based on their nationality.

The fact is, someone, somewhere, made a mistake that had tragic results. YOU made it seem like the incident is the standard with that military, when it could have happened to ANY military.


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## armyvern (3 Jul 2008)

I'm quite sure this tragedy will result in ammendments to the way training occurs in France.

Simple steps really that to us, as Canadians, are commonplace within our existing regulations already.

Here, it is routine to turn in live rounds after having utilized them on the range etc .. We pat ourselves down, then offer up the old "I have no live rounds, empty casings, pyrotechnics on my possession Sir..." declaration is heard quite often and is a matter of routine around here after live ammo usage. 

Ergo, none of us _should_, as stated was the case with the French incident, have any mags with live rounds hanging about in our TV after their being issued to us days earlier for a shoot.



> One possible explanation for the error Sunday, the army authorities said, *was that the sergeant forgot to remove a magazine of live ammunition after a shooting exercise that he had taken part in a few days earlier*. When he filled his vest with blanks before the exercise Sunday, he could have overlooked the magazine that was already in one pocket, they said.



This is certainly a tragic case, and this sergeant will have to live with it for the remainder of his life.

If, indeed, the above scenario is actually what occured, I am left to further ponder that "muscle memory" which is drilled into us ...



> The problem, he said, was that once the cartridges are inside a magazine their color is visible only from the top end, and the magazines are put inside the ammunition pockets of a military vest head down to facilitate the loading of the gun.



Even given that they are placed head down in vests in France, this statement would indicate that there may perhaps not be that "move to inspect the mag and rounds by physical/visual inspection" prior to loading onto the weapon as we are taught here in Canada, given that this French soldier would know the difference between a live and blank round at a glance -- if that glance had occured.

If so, there indicates some simple precautions that could prevent similar tragedy in the future. Obviously the Sgt was expecting "blanks" as the article indicates he did indeed have a BFA attached.



> A metal device that the sergeant had on his weapon for the exercise was designed to help explode blanks but slowed the real bullets and reduced their precision.



Very tragic and sad situation where a couple of things, seemingly insignificant in and of themselves, all managed to combine and come together in circumstances which produced tragic results.


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## MJP (3 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If, indeed, the above scenario is actually what occured, I am left to further ponder that "muscle memory" which is drilled into us ...
> 
> Even given that they are placed head down in vests in France, this statement would indicate that there may perhaps not be that "move to inspect the mag and rounds by physical/visual inspection" prior to loading onto the weapon as we are taught here in Canada, given that this French soldier would know the difference between a live and blank round at a glance -- if that glance had occured.
> 
> If so, there indicates some simple precautions that could prevent similar tragedy in the future. Obviously the Sgt was expecting "blanks" as the article indicates he did indeed have a BFA attached.



Aye that muscle memory works well for soldiers that aren't trained in tactical shoot/gunfighter.  But if he was so trained, just as it is here in Canada, split seconds count on reloads and the glance at the top of the mag is removed for the sake of speed to get accurate rounds down range. 

 Just saying is all.....I have no idea of his training nor will I speculate on how this happened or what the soldier's actual training was.


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## armyvern (3 Jul 2008)

MJP said:
			
		

> Aye that muscle memory works well for soldiers that aren't trained in tactical shoot/gunfighter.  But if he was so trained, just as it is here in Canada, split seconds count on reloads and the glance at the top of the mag is removed for the sake of speed to get accurate rounds down range.
> 
> Just saying is all.....I have no idea of his training nor will I speculate on how this happened or what the soldier's actual training was.



I agree. However, tactical shooting/gunfighter emphasizes shooting in the "fighting/war" enviornment ... where one expects his mags to be loaded with live ammo, thus is not inspecting to ensure he has blanks and thereby is saving those precious seconds where mag changes can indeed save your or your buddies life.

Even given a "gunfighter" scenario with his training --- the return of live ammo at the end of "live fire" tasks (such as is the case in Canada) may have prevented this tragedy. The removal of either-or of the factors (not being required to return live ammo OR the non-inspection of the mag/ammo prior to loading) _may_ have avoided the combination of these factors into a tragic sequence of events if, as I said earlier ... those were the actual circumstances of the event.

The circumstances that I quoted as to the events were those circumstances which may have played as role as detailed/released by French Army authorities. No speculation on my part --- I'm just pondering their regulations pertaining to live ammo handling based upon on their own Army released (see my 1st quoted bit in last post) details of the occurance.

All I know is that it's now career over for what seemed to be a very promising individual and soldier under circumstances which, by the French Army's comments on details, would seem to have been preventable had something akin to Canadian policy been in effect and that I'd expect some changes in their live ammo handling policy in the future as a result of this incident.

It's just tragic, no matter what.


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## Kalatzi (3 Jul 2008)

http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/l01696769-france-army/
One soldier  substituted live rounds for blanks????
One sick puppy?

for a better link (Cartoon)

http://cartoonbox.slate.com/index/?image=3

Higher seems to be doing the right thing


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## Duke_The_Patriot (3 Jul 2008)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Nah, you can keep your list.
> 
> I've seen mistakes made by Portuguese Airborne soldiers, Romanians, American, and *gasp* Canadians.
> 
> ...



Yes your right, for that i take my comment back. 

Oh with the part of my Father in France, he is the closest of friends to a Capitaine (I will not mention her name) and did allow me to be in one of the recon patrol exercises, and using the French FAMAS. You don’t need to believe me, my father and her go a WHILE back, too long of a story to explain...


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## geo (3 Jul 2008)

Duke.... sounds fascinating.

I can tell you for a fact that here, IN CANADA, no civilian would ever be handed a weapon and be invited to participate in any "recon patrol ex".  

If it reaqlly happened - good for you - but, what you see is what you get... In other words, the level of "action" you would have experienced in such an exercise would be far, far and away a tame and lazy version of the real thing - where the soldiers acting out the activity were probably falling asleep...


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## Sigger (3 Jul 2008)

Geo,

let it go man.


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## Haletown (3 Jul 2008)

if you ever get to visit, Carcassone is quite the place.

You get up on the walls and you can almost imagine the enemy siege army camped out on the plains

Worth a couple of hours of time.

I was there with a buddy who is a Monty Python fan and who kept leaning over the ramparts and  yelling "Lancez la vache".  

I cracked up but the locals didn't get the joke


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jul 2008)

Where is the usual 'lets not jump to conclusion folks the investigation is ongoing lets wait until the facts are out thread locked' post?

  ;D


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## George Wallace (3 Jul 2008)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Where is the usual 'lets not jump to conclusion folks the investigation is ongoing lets wait until the facts are out thread locked' post?
> 
> ;D



OK !


LOCKED !

And UNlocked for the addition of recent NEWS.


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## Blackadder1916 (3 Oct 2008)

The following is a machine translation (French to English) of some articles about the inquiry into the incident at Carcassonne.  It appears that it was common practice in this particular unit, and perhaps in many French units for soldiers to keep unexpended ammo, even though it seems that French Army regulations (like Canada’s) require unexpended ammo be turned in following a range serial.

*Fusillade de Carcassonne: des soldats reconnaissent des dysfonctionnements*


> Shootout Carcassonne: soldiers recognize malfunctions
> September 10 2008
> 
> TOULOUSE (AFP) - Several soldiers interviewed after the shooting of Carcassonne, who had made 17 injured during an open day in a barracks on June 29, acknowledged "serious malfunctions" in the control of ammunition and organization of demonstration, according to France Info.
> ...



*Fusillade de Carcassonne : cinq soldats révèlent de graves dysfonctionnements*


> Shootout Carcassonne: five soldiers reveal serious shortcomings
> 10/09/2008 - 08:00
> 
> CARCASSONNE (NOVOpress) - The minutes of hearing of the five paratroopers heard after the tragic demonstration of Carcassonne on June 29 last reveal serious shortcomings in the control of ammunition, said France Info who was able to obtain these PV.
> ...


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## Blackadder1916 (18 Jan 2009)

The following is a translation of an article in Le Figaro concerning the latest about this incident.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Carcassonne Shootout: The shooter dismissed
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2009/01/07/01016-20090107ARTFIG00514-fusillade-de-carcassonne-l-auteur-des-tirs-revoque-.php
Cyrille Louis  07/01/2009

INFO FIGARO - The decision taken by the Chief of Staff of the Army, has been notified to Sergeant Vizioz who, on 29 June 2008, wounded 17 people during a public demonstration. 

Seven months after the shooting during which seventeen spectators were injured during a demonstration held at the 3rd RPIMa Carcassonne, Sergeant Nicolas Vizioz already suspended as a precaution, has been dismissed from the Army . From now on, and subject to remedies, he returns to civilian life. Contacted Wednesday morning by his superiors when he was with his family in Isere, the soldier went in the middle of the day to Carcassonne, where he was notified of the penalty imposed against him by the Chief of  Staff of the Army. 

Nicolas Vizioz, 28, is now the seventh soldier to receive administrative action in connection with the shooting at the end of June 2008 at a demonstration organized by the 3rd RPIMa. In late July, six officers and NCOs of the same regiment, including the former head of the unit, the Colonel Merveilleux Vignaux, were hit with disciplinary action ranging from ten to thirty days of arrest for their responsibility for the failures illustrated by the drama. 

Upon being informed, Sergeant Vizioz’s lawyer, M. Robert Phung, responded Wednesday: "I consider my client serves as an outlet and a scapegoat in this case. He never denied his responsibility, he sought from the beginning to assume it. However, it is not intentional misconduct and the punishment seems very heavy. Vizioz seems to be a target of all those atoning for failures and malfunctions of the system. " 

Indicted for "unintentional injuries", the sergeant also is subject to a penalty of three years imprisonment and 45 000 euros fine. Ultimately, the responsibility of the organizers of the Open Houses could also be questioned by the examining magistrate.


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## geo (18 Jan 2009)

> Dismissal plus three years imprisonment plus 45 000 euros fine.
> 
> I consider my client serves as an outlet and a scapegoat in this case. He never denied his responsibility, he sought from the beginning to assume it.



The sentence appears to be appropriate IMHO
Am not certain what this thing about being a scapegoat is all about.  This Sgt did not return his ammunition to Stores at the end of a range ex.
The Sgt did not inspect his magasine prior to inserting it in his mag in the morning.
The Sgt did not carry out the most basic safety precautions on his weapon prior to entering an area where civilians were present.

Ya messed up bubba.


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