# City of Toronto’s HUSAR team deployed to Elliot Lake



## mariomike (24 Jun 2012)

"The mayor of Elliot Lake declared a state of emergency, triggering action from the City of Toronto’s HUSAR team. It deployed for the seven-hour trek Saturday night, bringing tractor trailers, vans and rescue equipment to the northern Ontario town of 11,000, which sits about halfway between Sudbury and Sault Ste. Marie.":
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1216437--elliot-lake-mall-roof-collapse-toronto-search-team-called-in-as-one-person-trapped


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## Scott (24 Jun 2012)

HOLY FUCK, someone's HUSAR team was deployed. Better throw MORE money at them.


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## mariomike (24 Jun 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> HOLY FUCK, someone's HUSAR team was deployed. Better throw MORE money at them.



Federal funding is likely on their minds after what happened in Vancouver two months ago.

"Feds cut funds to Vancouver urban search and rescue team":
http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120420/bc_urban_search_and_rescue_120420/20120420?hub=BritishColumbiaHome


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## mariomike (25 Jun 2012)

CTV
"Rescue efforts called off at Ontario mall collapse: The site of a collapsed mall roof in Elliot Lake, Ont., is too dangerous for emergency crews to continue their search-and-rescue efforts, officials said Monday afternoon.:"
 http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120625/potential-missing-persons-mall-roof-collapse-120625/20120625/?hub=TorontoNewHome


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## GAP (25 Jun 2012)

According to a lot of reports there's some real unrest about just leaving the people buried there without confirming if they are dead or alive....

I don't know the situation, but there must be some way of shoring up the ceiling/staircase temporarily.....don't know, not my field....


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## old medic (26 Jun 2012)

Elliot Lake mall rescuers consider 'extreme measures'
Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty urges rescue teams to 'leave no stone unturned'
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/06/25/elliot-lake-mall-rescue-work.html



> Rescue crews are preparing to take "more extreme measures" to continue search and recovery efforts at a badly damaged Elliot Lake, Ont., mall, an emergency official says.
> 
> Part of the mall roof collapsed on Saturday, but since then, beams and slabs have been falling too, CBC's Ioanna Roumeliotis said. The changing conditions hampered search and rescue efforts and eventually made it too dangerous for crews, a rescue official said earlier Monday.
> 
> ...


 continues at link.




Search for Elliot Lake survivors back on after premier’s call
Armina Ligaya and Sarah Boesveld, National Post Staff
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/25/elliot-lake-mall-collapse/



> Rescuers planned to restart the search for survivors believed trapped in the rubble of the collapsed mall in the northern Ontario city of Elliot Lake, an about-face just hours after operations were called off because it was too dangerous.
> 
> Officials were drafting a plan late Monday night to use “more mechanical means” to reach the victims in Algo Centre Mall, at the urging of Premier Dalton McGuinty, said Fire Chief Paul Officer.
> 
> ...


 continues at link


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

This morning people were making comparisons to 9/11, i.e. that nobody stopped the rescue effort there.  Many in Elliot Lake seem to want the rescuers to go in regardless of the danger, and there's now a list of 50+ volunteers who want to go in if the rescuers don't.  I wonder what the families of the rescuers want ... both the paid rescuers who aren't going in, and the unpaid volunteers who want to - and it seems they will now have to get past a police barricade in order to do so.

Like GAP, this is not my field either.  Can't do much more than sympathize with the human suffering, both inside & outside the collapsed mall.  It's hard to know what to make of all of this, but it's certainly distressing to hear about, much less be on the scene.   I sure hope there's a piece of good news to come.  Thoughts & prayers to everyone involved.


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## dapaterson (26 Jun 2012)

If you are not able to secure the scene, you risk becoming another casualty and worsening the situation.


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## aesop081 (26 Jun 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you are not able to secure the scene, you risk becoming another casualty and worsening the situation.



It's a McSquinty political play.


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you are not able to secure the scene, you risk becoming another casualty and worsening the situation.



That's obvious - it's why the rescuers are refusing to go in.  Nevertheless, sometimes people go in anyway, even when they can't secure things.   Tough job to make these calls at the scene, that's for sure.


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## Scott (26 Jun 2012)

Rule number one of emergency response: do not make yourself a victim. 

It's not an enviable position to be in, that's for sure. I would suspect that McGuinty's impassioned plea did little to bolster further thought about how to carry out search and rescue here and I am sure that the teams are doing everything they can to find a way to get in there as safely as possible.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Jun 2012)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/pm-offers-help-of-canadian-forces-in-elliot-lake-rescue-efforts/article4370778/


The military is ready to help the increasingly desperate rescue operation at a collapsed mall in the northern Ontario community of Elliot Lake, a spokesman for Prime Minister Stephen Harper said.
"The Prime Minister has offered the assistance of the federal government," said Andrew MacDougall, a spokesman for Mr. Harper. "Officials are in contact with the province to ascertain what assets would be of use."

The offer comes after Mr. Harper and Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty conferred about the disaster. And it follows suggestions that community volunteers were ready to take matters into their own hands.
After suspending rescue efforts Monday because of risk to emergency crews, officials were ready Tuesday to try “a little more drastic” measures.

MORE AT LINK.


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## mariomike (26 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> This morning people were making comparisons to 9/11, i.e. that nobody stopped the rescue effort there.



From what I have read, even at Ground Zero, rescue efforts were paused numerous times in the days after the attack, due to concerns that nearby buildings were in danger of collapsing.

September 14, 2001
New York Daily News:
"A fight vs. steel, despair & weather Rescuers press on valiantly, despite odds":
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2001-09-14/news/18363334_1_rescuers-world-trade-center-rescue-workers

I have confidence in our HUSAR paramedics who were deployed to Elliot Lake.  
They are trained in collapse, confined space, trench, high angle, Crush Syndrome, Compartment Syndrome and receive advanced HAZ-MAT training. 
They can intubate a victim in a narrow crawl space, work in harnesses and protective masks, rappel from ropes and operate among debris.:
http://www.torontoems.ca/main-site/service/husar.html


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## my72jeep (26 Jun 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It's a McSquinty political play.


Liberal making waves in a Double NDP town.


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## Civvymedic (26 Jun 2012)

What specific resources and personnel can the Military offer to a situation like this?


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## Maxadia (26 Jun 2012)

Civvymedic said:
			
		

> What specific resources and personnel can the Military offer to a situation like this?





> I have confidence in our HUSAR paramedics who were deployed to Elliot Lake.
> They are trained in collapse, confined space, trench, high angle, Crush Syndrome, Compartment Syndrome and receive advanced HAZ-MAT training.
> They can intubate a victim in a narrow crawl space, work in harnesses and protective masks, rappel from ropes and operate among debris.:
> http://www.torontoems.ca/main-site/service/husar.html


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## aesop081 (26 Jun 2012)

Civvymedic said:
			
		

> What specific resources and personnel can the Military offer to a situation like this?



Engineers, SAR techs, etc...


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## Civvymedic (26 Jun 2012)

I assumed so as well CDN Aviator but I was not certain. I would think the Military would have additional tools and expertise.  The Toronto HUSAR team is well trained but I know of other teams in the U.S.A. with further experience and equipment. I just hope all the resources that should be there have been called upon.


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## ff149 (26 Jun 2012)

Some military firefighters have had USAR training. They were used in Haiti after the earthquake.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Jun 2012)

No training in the world will help anyone if the building falls on them while using that expertise.....


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## Civvymedic (26 Jun 2012)

I agree Bruce the phrase "dead heroes can't save lives" is one of the first things we learned in Paramedic school. That being said I have certainly put myself in situations where I could be injured or worse to be able to care for another. My choice but I certainly heard about it later from my superiors. It's a tough balance, but a choice all the same. It's difficult to asses the situation from media reports but working in the civilian system I know how much weight the Province puts on liability and worker/medic and FF safety. I just wonder if liability concerns outweigh the ability and wil of the rescuers to work in that situation. Either way Im sure this is a situation that will weigh on the minds of the rescuers for the rest of there lives in any case. Kudos and respect to them regardless of the outcome.


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## Towards_the_gap (26 Jun 2012)

Civvymedic said:
			
		

> I agree Bruce the phrase "dead heroes can't save lives" is one of the first things we learned in Paramedic school. That being said I have certainly put myself in situations where I could be injured or worse to be able to care for another. My choice but I certainly heard about it later from my superiors. It's a tough balance, but a choice all the same. It's difficult to asses the situation from media reports but working in the civilian system I know how much weight the Province puts on liability and worker/medic and FF safety. I just wonder if liability concerns outweigh the ability and wil of the rescuers to work in that situation. Either way Im sure this is a situation that will weigh on the minds of the rescuers for the rest of there lives in any case. Kudos and respect to them regardless of the outcome.



+1. If the search resumes despite warnings that the building collapses, and then it does collapse, will all the impassioned pleas from the populace hold any weight when the Incident Commander is in court having violated Ministry of Labour guidance notes?


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## Civvymedic (26 Jun 2012)

Agreed. I wonder if the Premier in his direction to EMO was able to waive certain liability's to allow the search to continue. I think he must have offered certain assurances in that regard.


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## bridges (26 Jun 2012)

If this were a movie (or the new Hawaii-Five-O), the commander would be gathering all the troops (away from Ministry of Labour officials) and saying they can each choose to back out, and then asking who's with him.   

Life doesn't work that way; rules/regulations will generally prevail, along with the desire not to lose even more people.  I wonder what the individual rescuers and THEIR families think of this situation.      

I'm with Civvymedic, kudos and respect to the rescuers no matter what happens.  They have no apologies to make to anybody.


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## mariomike (26 Jun 2012)

Civvymedic said:
			
		

> What specific resources and personnel can the Military offer to a situation like this?



"What can the federal government do for Elliot Lake?:
The federal government is standing on guard, ready to send the military to Elliot Lake, Ont. ...":
http://www.globalnews.ca/what+can+the+federal+government+do+for+elliot+lake/6442668740/story.html

"Mr. Neadles said they have not requested military attendance."

"Mr. Neadles" is the TPS staff inspector who leads the rescue effort:

"Elite Toronto volunteer team leads rescue effort in mall collapse: 
Staff Inspector Bill Neadles is the leader of Toronto’s Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR) team sent to Elliot Lake. It’s an all-volunteer team of firefighters, paramedics and police officers that is world renowned for its wealth of expertise in extracting people trapped inside collapsed structures – HUSAR teams had a role in the 9/11 rescue effort.":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/elite-toronto-volunteer-team-leads-rescue-effort-in-mall-collapse/article4373046/


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## old medic (27 Jun 2012)

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/06/26/elliot-lake-mall-collapse-rescue/



> Elliot Lake, Ont. — After hours of hearing nothing but maddening silence from the twisted wreckage of the Algo Centre Mall, hundreds of Elliot Lakers gathered around the building Tuesday to keep watch over their hard-won attempt to pull life from the crippled mall.
> 
> “They just brought that in today,” said local resident and retired miner Andre Rheaume, referring to a multi-stage crane. “We lost three days waiting for that.”
> 
> ...


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## GAP (27 Jun 2012)

Feds cut HUSAR funding
By Antonella Artuso, QMI Agency 
Article Link

 The Stephen Harper government is fighting its deficit by slashing funding to all five Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR) units in Canada, including the Toronto team on scene at the collapsed mall in Elliot Lake.

Four HUSAR teams remained on the sideline Tuesday while the federal government offered up the help of the military in Elliot Lake.

Public Safety Canada announced in April that it would no longer provide Joint Emergency Preparedness Program (JEPP) funding which supports the search and rescue teams after March 2013.

Julie Carmichael, a spokesman for Public Safety Minister Vic Toews, said in an e-mail that it will be up to the provinces, which are responsible for the oversight and base funding of HUSAR, to make decisions about the units’ future.

“Emergency management is a provincial responsibility,” Carmichael said.

The federal government has put $1.4 million into the HUSAR team engaged in Elliot Lake, she added.


In total, the five HUSAR teams received $2.2 million in 2009-10; $2.75 million in 2010-11; $2.89 million in 2011-12 and $1.87 million in 2012-13.

Following the 9/11 destruction of the World Trade Centre, HUSAR teams were trained to conduct search and rescue missions in collapsed structures using dogs and electronic search equipment.

“The teams breach, shore, lift and remove structural components, use heavy construction equipment to remove debris, and medically treat and transfer victims,” according to the Public Safety Canada.

Teams are based in Vancouver, Calgary, Manitoba, Toronto and Halifax.

The decision to end federal funding for search and rescue initiatives has drawn criticism from first response organizations, including a letter-writing campaign by the British Columbia Association of Emergency Managers.

A notice from a federal public safety official, posted on the association’s website, explains that the funding cut is part of the Harper government’s Economic Action Plan 2012.

“We have carefully and critically examined our emergency management activities and identified deficit reduction measures that streamline government operations, provide value for taxpayers while ensuring that the safety of Canadians is paramount,” the notice says. “The original objectives of (the JEPP) program, namely to enhance local emergency preparedness and response capacity, have been met.” 
end


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## GAP (27 Jun 2012)

The situation facing Elliot Lake rescue crews: Graphic
Article Link
National Post Staff  Jun 27, 2012


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## bridges (27 Jun 2012)

A friend used to travel to Elliot Lake on business, and stayed in the hotel on the top floor of that mall, until the water infiltration & general decrepitude finally got to him and he asked his employer to book the other hotel in town instead.  I've been in that mall as well.  It's disturbing to think of this happening now.  

This extract from the link old medic posted above is what puzzles me the most:


> In the mid-1980s, at Denison, they mobilized rescue crews after a tunnel collapse that ultimately killed three miners. “They didn’t stop, they didn’t give up — you just don’t quit when you know you’ve got life in there,” said Mr. Rheaume.



Why wasn't something like this done here?


Edit:  I meant to include this part:


> “If it’s unstable, you stabilize it,” said Aurele Beaupre, a mine rescue veteran from the nearby Denison uranium mine. “We’d have broken through the wall, gone in with supports and inflated an air pillow.”


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## Wookilar (27 Jun 2012)

As a general guess, liability and the complexity of the cave-in.

I'm an ex-miner (as is my Dad) so I know a few things. A cave-in underground can do lots of crazy things, but if the geology around it is fairly stable, the rescue teams have a couple of options.

I am no urban rescue guru, but these guys are dealing with a constantly shifting mess of deteriorated concrete and rebar with unknown bits and pieces of machinery holding things up (hence the issue with the escalator frame) and there is no way of knowing (or even guessing really) when that particular piece of steel is going to let go or even to know how much it is holding up.

I'm not sure I could send people in knowing fully well that everything could let go at any time and I would just be adding to the body count.

Add to that the hugely increased liabilities in the last 30 years, you can't tell me that there are people in charge that have that in mind as well.

Right now, the recovery operation is being done for those outside the mall, not for those inside.


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## Scott (27 Jun 2012)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> As a general guess, liability and the complexity of the cave-in.
> 
> I'm an ex-miner (as is my Dad) so I know a few things. A cave-in underground can do lots of crazy things, but if the geology around it is fairly stable, the rescue teams have a couple of options.
> 
> ...



This about sums it up. 

I know it seems simple, but it most certainly is not.


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## bridges (27 Jun 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> This about sums it up.
> 
> I know it seems simple, but it most certainly is not.



I don't think anyone here said they thought it was simple.  

The quote from mining rescues about the air pillow was intriguing.  Yes, we know mines are different from buildings.  Presumably there's a reason an "air pillow" wouldn't have worked in a building - not sure what that is, exactly.   Maybe the greater proliferation of metal and machinery that Wookilar described?

Early reports this morning are that the remains of one person have been brought out - and, unbelievably, the family of another person are apparently being given reason to hope that something good might happen.  Sure hope that's not in vain.  Thoughts & prayers to everyone involved.


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## mariomike (27 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> The quote from mining rescues about the air pillow was intriguing.  Yes, we know mines are different from buildings.  Presumably there's a reason an "air pillow" wouldn't have worked in a building - not sure what that is, exactly.   Maybe the greater proliferation of metal and machinery that Wookilar described?



Some comparison of mine and urban rescue here:

"Some residents suggested calling in mine rescuers given the many mines in the region and the expertise in dealing with people trapped in underground collapses.

Alex Gryska, manager of Ontario Mine Rescue in Sudbury, Ont., said that idea wouldn't fly.

For one thing, he said, the urban search and rescuers have sophisticated technical expertise and specific equipment the mine responders wouldn't have.

At the same time, he said, mine rescue involves the same kind of "delicate" weighing of the risks to emergency responders.

"If this was an underground mine collapse, we would be exercising the same kind of cautions that they would be exercising," Gryska said from Sudbury, Ont.

"When teams are told to proceed, they need to know they're going to do it in safety. The last thing that we'd like to see happen during a rescue event that we have casualties of rescuers." ":
http://metronews.ca/news/canada/277643/first-rule-of-rescue-dont-make-things-worse/


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## Wookilar (27 Jun 2012)

An air pillow is just that, a big inflatable pillow. They can work well, but in limited circumstances. I do not think that with the debris we are talking about in a structure like this, that an air pillow would work. They are tough, but with the amount of twisted steel, conduit and rebar in there, not that tough.

Also, if you inflate something like this, the debris is just as likely to slide off the side as anything else. Air pillows work best in confined spaces where you can control the sides.

I understand the frustration of the locals (i.e. non-experts), but I know enough about mining to know that I don't know anything about urban heavy rescue in a collapsed shopping mall.


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## Scott (27 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone here said they thought it was simple.



I never said anyone did.

My experience with collapse rescue is limited and thus I cannot throw out anything very educated on the use of air bags for one. However, I can offer that the types of bags we use for vehicle extrication generally come in two types: high pressure and low pressure. High pressure for shorter and heavier lifts, low for lighter and higher lifts. With a vehicle you'd use a tremendous amount of cribbing to re-set the bags to continue lifts. One of the dangers in any wreck is that something will pierce the bag(s). The you have a massive release of high pressure air and the likelihood that someone will be close to that, as well as the coming down of whatever you are trying to lift. It's not hard for me to see them applying the same caution here - but I am not there and, again, my experience with collapse is limited.

Mine rescues don't always see people being rushed in, either. Westray ought to sum that up. Yes, rescuers went in, but they were also turned back. They did not recover all of the victims and a decision was made, based on the situation and the expertise of those involved, that no reasonable chance of survivors existed - and they called it off and effectively entombed the remaining men.

My blind faith, run-in-there mentality evaporated when I was a firefighter in the school and watched the events of Worcester, Mass. unfold. The Chief had to physically bar the door to keep more men from running in to help their mates.

Like the previous two decisions, I am sure this one was gut wrenching for the rescuers to make. And I completely understand the feelings and emotions that the families and others are experiencing.


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## bridges (27 Jun 2012)

Scott said:
			
		

> I never said anyone did.



OK...  I guess you threw me off there when you said "I know it seems simple...".   It doesn't seem simple at all and judging by their comments, I don't think anyone else took that view either.

Thanks for the addl info on air bags.   

According to CBC.ca's Twitter feed, family members are being escorted away, & at least one fire truck is packing up & leaving.  Not sure what that signifies but they have not yet confirmed whether they're still considering it a "rescue" - despite the odds.   An awful situation all around.


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## mariomike (30 Jun 2012)

National Post

"When it counted, high-profile rescue team failed, say readers":
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/06/30/paul-russell-when-it-counted-high-profile-rescue-team-failed-say-readers/

"Most of that anger was directed at the Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR) unit brought in from Toronto."

“Come on Canada, these [HUSAR] people make way more money than we do, get better benefit packages and we won’t even mention the ridiculous early retirement they collect." 

“What did they do the rest of the time?" 

The rest of the time HUSAR paramedics respond to 9-1-1 calls in Toronto. TPS and TFS members would do likewise within their own departments.

"What was the cost of having them on stand by for six years?"

Toronto paramedics on the HUSAR team receive a premium of $450.00 per year.

An opinion on the subject from Firefighting in Canada:
http://www.firefightingincanada.com/content/view/12301/41/


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## The Bread Guy (3 Jul 2012)

From the OPP:





> As a result of information obtained, the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) is now undertaking a parallel criminal investigation into the circumstances regarding the mall roof collapse in Elliot Lake on June 23, 2012.
> 
> The OPP Criminal Investigation Branch (CIB) began assisting the Office of the Chief Coroner for Ontario (OCC) with its death investigation into the deaths of two people.  The death investigation is continuing under the auspices of the Coroner's Act. The Ministry of Labour (MOL) is also conducting an investigation under the Occupational Health and Safety Act (OHSA). Both the OCC and MOL are fully cooperating with the OPP criminal investigation.
> 
> ...


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## mariomike (17 Jun 2016)

CANADA TASK FORCE 3 ( CAN-TF3 ) Toronto Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR)

Response to Elliot Lake Commission of Inquiry Recommendations
https://www1.toronto.ca/City%20Of%20Toronto/Fire%20Services/Shared%20Content/Files/Elliot%20Lake%20Report%20(FINAL).pdf

Sustainability of the Toronto HUSAR Program

"HUSAR/TF3 should receive adequate funding to ensure that it is properly equipped and trained to respond to structural collapses in a timely manner with sufficient personnel and expertise. The Joint Emergency Preparedness Program (JEPP) funding should be reinstated by the federal government."

"In the absence of new and/or incremental funding sources, Toronto HUSAR may be forced to make some difficult decisions in terms of the sustainability of the HUSAR program."

Also,

"For 2016 Toronto HUSAR is planning to purchase drones with interior and exterior mapping capabilities with real-time viewing, recording and picture-taking, with the expectation that the drones will be used by the advance team to investigate, map and report back to incoming team members. Additional funding will be required to purchase the drones."


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