# Changes to AOC in the coming year?



## passthebuck (27 Oct 2012)

I was in on a telecon the other day where it was mentioned by a LCol, off topic, that AOC (Army Operations Course) in Kingston is changing for next year in that it will only be one serial and "merited" as to who will attend (meriting method unknown). I put little stock in rumors typically, but a buddy confirmed that he had heard the same thing from a different source. Both the LCol and friend also stated that AOC is no longer going to be an "all Capts will attend" crse, that it only be run once a year and that approx an additional 20 pers for that one serial will be added. CLFCSC has not added any info about next years course start info yet here:

http://www.army.gc.ca/iaol/143000440002006/index-Eng.html

and my CoC is unable to see that far into the future (as of yet).

Can anyone please confirm or deny this AOC shift in policy?


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## exgunnertdo (27 Oct 2012)

Not sure how exactly it will be administered, but there will be one less serial of AOC starting immediately (January serial is cancelled).  Reduction of throughput by 1/3 has to mean that not all Captains will get it, and some form of meriting must be done.  I don't know the details of the meriting, but the cancelling of one course per year is not a rumour.  That has happened.  (My source - one of the tut 1 instructors at the college)

Edit to add - Just recalled that the instructor I was talking to also mentioned the increase in the number of candidates, so not a full 1/3 reduction in throughput, but a significant reduction.  Sounds like the people you were talking to have the same info that the staff at CLFCSC has.


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## MJP (27 Oct 2012)

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> Not sure how exactly it will be administered, but there will be one less serial of AOC starting immediately (January serial is cancelled).  Reduction of throughput by 1/3 has to mean that not all Captains will get it, and some form of meriting must be done.  I don't know the details of the meriting, but the cancelling of one course per year is not a rumour.  That has happened.  (My source - one of the tut 1 instructors at the college)
> 
> Edit to add - Just recalled that the instructor I was talking to also mentioned the increase in the number of candidates, so not a full 1/3 reduction in throughput, but a significant reduction.  Sounds like the people you were talking to have the same info that the staff at CLFCSC has.



Yea I got the same word but the numbers to be crse loaded on the two remaining serials is to be increased.  IIRC it was around 12 extra per serial but can look on Monday on my email.


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## exgunnertdo (27 Oct 2012)

12 sounds like a reasonable number - that's one syndicate.  I don't think they could add more than 1 syndicate per serial (staff, physical space, and exercise design for the BDXs/Final Drive)

So currently ~180 per year (3 serials of 60), if they add 12 more per serial, throughput will be ~144 per year.

I could ask my source when he returns from driving the kid to soccer  ;D


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## Infanteer (27 Oct 2012)

The numbers are consistent with what I've been told.

The meriting, IIRC, is done at a Corps/Branch level.  Each Corps/Branch is given a certain number of allocations which are now 1. less than before and 2. less frequent, so some thought will have to be done into who gets those positions.  I can see this being done at annual career management boards.  Some trades do this well, while others don't really do it at all.

I'm pleased to see that the College has made the effort to restore some quality control to the course (they've started to fail people as well).  There are, quite frankly, many folks who go to Kingston who shouldn't be there.


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## Old Sweat (27 Oct 2012)

Presumably the course can also be made more challenging.


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## jeffb (27 Oct 2012)

In what way and to what end? Are you looking for AOC to be hard for the sake of it or is there something that you feel is not being taught on the current course that needs to be?


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## Old Sweat (27 Oct 2012)

What I mean is that with a higher standard of student, they can be taken to a higher level. And that is good for the army and for the graduates.


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## Infanteer (27 Oct 2012)

jeffb said:
			
		

> In what way and to what end? Are you looking for AOC to be hard for the sake of it or is there something that you feel is not being taught on the current course that needs to be?



Presumably, there is more time for the right people to get tested in the right positions.  In an "all shall attend" structure, valuable training time on the exercises was lost giving positions like the G2 and the G5 to people who, quite frankly, shouldn't have been there.  There are those that are unprepared to undertake the course and there are those that don't need it - a combat arms candidate wastes his time as a CIMIC Plans 2 while a Nursing Officer is trying her best to figure out how to conduct IPB as the G2.

There are problems that manifest themselves in AOC that require solutions prior to students arriving (staff duties and tactical awareness are two, to name a few), but a more demanding entrance requirement can help to alleviate these problems.


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## exgunnertdo (28 Oct 2012)

Got some more info - 

There is some limit on throughput related to ATOC, it being a prereq for AOC.  No clue what ATOC numbers are, but there has to be a link between the throughputs of the two courses.  If ATOC is cutting back, that will limit AOC production.  

Max load per course could be up to 80, due to bedspaces in the Fort.  Right now the serials range from low 60s to low 70s.  So 12-20 more per serial is a valid "rumour."


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## PPCLI Guy (28 Oct 2012)

This is, as I understand it, a deliberate move away from "all means all".  Last I heard, the plan was to limit throughput to 80% of qualified Capts, to reflect both the reality that not all Capts will require AOC for employment or advancement, and to reduce costs.  With a 40% reduction to Army O&M, with more to come, something has to give.

There was a push from some Corps to reduce throughput to 60% to essentially provide a much-needed career venturi, but that was not accepted by Army Training Council.


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## Infanteer (28 Oct 2012)

Serials are 60 Canadian students and 12 foreign students (MTAP).  These break into 6 syndicates of 12 for the course.

There are some tactics school pers here who can correct me, but I do not believe the ATOC throughput is a cause for concern as the short duration of this course (4 weeks) means many more serials are run a year.  A primary reason for scaling back AOC was to give some time to the staff to "sharpen the axe" once a year; with the Res course run in the summer and a winter, spring and fall Reg Force serials, the College was essentially fixed for the entire year on simply churning candidates through.


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## SupersonicMax (28 Oct 2012)

Does that mean we're going to stop sending fighter pilot to an army course? Thank frig...


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## PPCLI Guy (28 Oct 2012)

Yeah - heaven forbid that you should taint yourself with any knowledge of your customers.   :facepalm:

You are ripe for a posting to 1 CMBG as G3 Air methinks.


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## Kat Stevens (28 Oct 2012)

Why should the Knights Of The Sky contaminate themselves with army muck?  It's an affront to all that tiger blood and Adonis DNA.


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## SupersonicMax (29 Oct 2012)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Yeah - heaven forbid that you should taint yourself with any knowledge of your customers.   :facepalm:



To be fair, the army is the customer in one of our many missions: CAS.  95% of the time, the army is not our customer.



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> You are ripe for a posting to 1 CMBG as G3 Air methinks.



I wouldn't mind doing a staff tour in an army unit as a ALO.  If you are so inclined making a pilot do that AOC course, make him do before/during a joint staff tour.  During a flying tour, it's simply taking people away from their primary duties: becoming lethal.  Right now, we have 1 guy on AOC DL and he's going on the course after the Holidays. He almost cannot fly because of the course (and when he flies, it's normally in support of something, not for his traning. He doesn't have time for briefs/debriefs).  Taking a pilot (on a flying tour) outside the cockpit for 6 months is more than taking him 6 months of training. He will be months behind where he is now when he gets back. 

If you want better interoperability, send your FACs/JTACS with us for a week, we'll make them fly, show them our perspective.  We'll go to the field and see your perspective too if you wish.  But, we will not get better at operating together by doing some doctrinal course.


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## Sf2 (29 Oct 2012)

As a Griffon Pilot who recently did the course (and had my chance as Bde Comd during Final Drive), I can attest that AOC is hardly a "doctrinal course".

Pilots do eventually work in a headquarters - believe it or not - and it might, just might, prove beneficial that when you sit down for an OPP session, that you know what the heck everyone is talking about.


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