# BMOQ failure rate?



## new_man12 (14 Nov 2008)

I was wondering what the failure rate is at BMOQ?  I was told by someone today that it is just over 50%.  I thought that number was rather high, but then again I haven't read anything to tell me otherwise.  What do you guys think?


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## Armymedic (14 Nov 2008)

Wow, 50%...no wonder there are never enough soldiers around when we need them.

Someone is pulling your chain. And its nothing to worry about. You are not put on BMQ to fail....accordingly its not like university where they will want you to fail. The CF wants you to pass BMQ and get to your real job. It is the job of the instructors to help you pass.


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## Klinkaroo (14 Nov 2008)

Prairie Dog he is talking about BMOQ which if I remember correctly is Basic Military Officer Qualification.

I don't know anything about the numbers but 50% wouldn't surprise me. There probably would be some people that would attend and would not have the leadership or the aptitudes needed to be an officer in the CF.


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## jeffb (14 Nov 2008)

See this previous thread on failure rate for IAP/ BOTP which was what BMOQ was previously called. 

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30564.0.html 

From this thread the 50% rate apparently includes people who are "dropped on request" and are "recoursed".


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## Armymedic (15 Nov 2008)

My mistake....I didn't realize we were talking about the spoiled university kids.


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## Shoto (15 Nov 2008)

I just graduated this week. We had 49 make it. When we started, there were 70.

Now, that is NOT all faliure. Some guys went strait to RFT, I think around 11 guys went the first week. Some guys get REALLY sick when they're there, and miss class, who get recoursed. Some guys VR too, but it was a SMALL amount. Probably 10 guys.

We also had guys added to our platoon from other platoons, for the above reason.


Hope that sheds light.


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## Celticgirl (15 Nov 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> My mistake....I didn't realize we were talking about the spoiled university kids.



I'm sorry? You have a problem with people furthering their education? 



			
				Shoto said:
			
		

> I just graduated this week. We had 49 make it. When we started, there were 70.
> 
> Now, that is NOT all faliure. Some guys went strait to RFT, I think around 11 guys went the first week. Some guys get REALLY sick when they're there, and miss class, who get recoursed. Some guys VR too, but it was a SMALL amount. Probably 10 guys.
> 
> ...



What I gather from this is that there are many factors contributing to the lack of success (as opposed to outright 'failure') of some candidates in IAP/BOTP. It could be injury, illness, low level of fitness, VR due to personal reasons, or some combination. I wonder what the actual number is for those who simply fail the courses due to lack of ability, effort, or 'the right stuff' and not for any of the aforementioned reasons. I'm betting it's nowhere near 50%, or even 25%.


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## Highlander60 (15 Nov 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> My mistake....I didn't realize we were talking about the spoiled university kids.



Spoiled? I guess working two jobs and attending classes at ungodly hours in the morning and night is the new spoiled... In fairness to the comment, there were a few students that filled that bill there, but that is a pretty broad generalization. I better go, the caviar is chilled to perfection, and I need my nutrition before my polo class starts. ;D


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## Shoto (15 Nov 2008)

I agree. The reason of "Not the right stuff" is not really there. I would say, those guys mostly VR. 


There are some guys, when you get to CFLRS.. that you look at and say "WHY the hell are you even here". But right now, the Army wants 100% of the people going in to CFLRS, to get out and serve. They DONT want faliure. Always keep that in mind. So long as you WANT to be there - you will most likely pass. Will they give you a hard time? Hellz yes. 

But we passed through some pretty... ghostly guys? Guys who JUST didn't seem like they wanted to be there. Remember though, as my father keeps reminding me in my frustration - it's ONLY bmq. They will have the oppourtunity to change in their careers, and will learn how the army works. 

Don't worry about it. Just get in. Youll have a blasty blast!


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## aesop081 (15 Nov 2008)

Highlander60 said:
			
		

> I guess working two jobs and attending classes at ungodly hours in the morning and night is the new spoiled...



I started university by distance education while i was on Tour. Had to fax my assignments by secure satcom ( from the back of a truck) to Ottawa so the guy there could send them by regular fax to my school. I continued school by writting essays from the back of an M113 in Wainwright ( fall weather there is great btw) during exercises while having to carry around my text books in my rucksack so i wouldnt fall too far behind. I did even more of it while raising 2 kids.........

2 jobs and long hours = spoiled indeed


Now back to the subject :

Statistics can be used to say anything and are more often than not, deceiving. Do not bother with the percentage of people who are not standing at the grad parade, this is of no concern. Go there, do what they want you to do, the way they want and put all your energy and maximum effort into everything, no matter how trivial it may seem. That way, you will be part of the positive statistic.


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## Celticgirl (15 Nov 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I started university by distance education while i was on Tour. Had to fax my assignments by secure satcom ( from the back of a truck) to Ottawa so the guy there could send them by regular fax to my school. I continued school by writting essays from the back of an M113 in Wainwright ( fall weather there is great btw) during exercises while having to carry around my text books in my rucksack so i wouldnt fall too far behind. I did even more of it while raising 2 kids.........
> 
> 2 jobs and long hours = spoiled indeed



Oh yeah? Well, well, well, I studied full-time and held down three jobs and raised 5 kids all on my own and walked 10 miles in the snow every day...uphill...both ways. 

(I really didn't, actually, but I wanted to join in the arms race for fun.  >)


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## Chortle (15 Nov 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> Wow, 50%...no wonder there are never enough soldiers around when we need them.
> 
> Someone is pulling your chain. And its nothing to worry about. You are not put on BMQ to fail....accordingly its not like university where they will want you to fail. The CF wants you to pass BMQ and get to your real job. It is the job of the instructors to help you pass.





			
				Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> My mistake....I didn't realize we were talking about the spoiled university kids.



Universities want you to fail? I'm pretty sure they spend all that money advertising because their enrolment is too high... it's not like they need that tuition cash for anything right?

Other than driving through a campus to get a look at the tail do you have any university experience? Maybe you tried it and had to leave because "they wanted you to fail"?



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I started university by distance education while i was on Tour. Had to fax my assignments by secure satcom ( from the back of a truck) to Ottawa so the guy there could send them by regular fax to my school. I continued school by writting essays from the back of an M113 in Wainwright ( fall weather there is great btw) during exercises while having to carry around my text books in my rucksack so i wouldnt fall too far behind. I did even more of it while raising 2 kids.........
> 
> 2 jobs and long hours = spoiled indeed



I'd be interested to see how you think that is worse than working two jobs and long hours... if you were in the field how did you research your papers? Do you suppose it's possible that because it was distance education maybe just maybe you had some leeway that someone who wasn't a distance learner would not have? From my experience University is a lot like the original posters description of BMQ, if you want to be there and your professors see someone of value they will make an effort to see you through.

Us university snots don't have a monopoly on being spoiled, my little sister started BMQ last week and told us that every male except one who failed the PT test in her group quit rather than going to RFT. It would have been quite a sight if almost every university brat dropped out when we got our first F. How spoiled is it to waste a BMQ slot, to waste everyone's time and money just to quit at the first sign of trouble?

Prairie Dog maybe the air in your den sounds a little stale, using your brain instead of speaking out of your ass could maybe fix that.


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## Shamrock (15 Nov 2008)

Wow, this became a pissing contest in a hurry.


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## aesop081 (15 Nov 2008)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Wow, this became a pissing contest in a hurry.



Celticgirl knew what i was getting at quick enough

Cheers CG


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Nov 2008)

jeffb said:
			
		

> See this previous thread on failure rate for IAP/ BOTP which was what BMOQ was previously called.



Not quite correct.  IAP and BOTP used to give you the qualification BOTC which was renamed BMOQ.


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## MAJONES (15 Nov 2008)

The failure rate on BMOQ really varies according to platoon.  When I was there we had 3 of 70 out right fail and get sent packing.  We had another 3 get sick/broken, and about 25 VR.  The other platoon had about 45 VR, BUT, their staff were really putting the ...rooster...to them.  (Rumour was that that platoon was not pulling together as a team, hence the meat grinder).  
I wouldn't worry about BMOQ.  If you're not stupid, and if you have a good work ethic you'll do alright there.


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## xmarcx (15 Nov 2008)

When I went through we had about 60 people to start and graduated 35, the vast majority of which were VRs and failures. I think outright, PO failure, PRB RTU's was 6 or 7. 

Having gone through it, and now being on the other side as a Course O for leadership courses, I realize that BMOQ is really designed for you to pass, provided that you want to be there and can adapt to the army environment. Just pay attention and don't get kicked off for drill or weapons handling, if you're going to fail you might as well do it on the harder stuff like leadership or figuring out that whacky compass.


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## jeffb (15 Nov 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Not quite correct.  IAP and BOTP used to give you the qualification BOTC which was renamed BMOQ.



Fair enough but my point still stands.


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## Run away gun (15 Nov 2008)

Statistics will not help you. If one of your instructors wants you to fail, chances are you will fail. If you quit on yourself or your teammates chances are you will fail. There is a whole variety of reasons why you can fail, and if you do, maybe you can come back here and fill us in on statistics.


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## nickinguelph (12 Dec 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> My mistake....I didn't realize we were talking about the spoiled university kids.



Wow...spoiled university kids???  someone must not get out often, or doesnt have much of an education past highshool...

I am going DEO into AEC, and I put myself through University, while paying my own rent and bills.  Not everyone who attends University is spoilled, now granted alot of kids today are taking it for granted, but there are those of us who where there for the education, and worked hard for it.


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## Highlander60 (12 Dec 2008)

Senior leadership has acknowledged the failure rate stats and has recently made some changes at CFLRS. Many people were VRing for the wrong reasons, so now more focus will be put on "mentoring" as apposed to the "hard nose" approach.


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## Celticgirl (12 Dec 2008)

Highlander60 said:
			
		

> Senior leadership has acknowledged the failure rate stats and has recently made some changes at CFLRS. Many people were VRing for the wrong reasons, so now more focus will be put on "mentoring" as apposed to the "hard nose" approach.



Good call on the part of senior leadership.  8)


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## benny88 (12 Dec 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> My mistake....I didn't realize we were talking about the spoiled university kids.



    Since this thread has been kicked awake I'd like to ask Prairie Dog to show a little more respect in the future please. To insult candidates on BMOQ out of the blue and without provocation is random and rude, especially from a Senior NCO. Remember that there are a lot of prospective applicants here, and you being openly offensive must be pretty discouraging if they were considering applying as an Officer.
    It's as much of a generalization and a fallacy as if I were to say "Everyone on BMQ is stupid because they're NCM's" Both are wildly inaccurate, and I'm sure you'd take offense if I were to say the latter.
     Most kicks at the collective OCdt can are in good fun and I take it as such, but my peers and I are not "spoiled university kids".


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## Michael OLeary (12 Dec 2008)

Anyone thinking about jumping in here should review this thread first.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## aesop081 (12 Dec 2008)

benny88 said:
			
		

> Since this thread has been kicked awake I'd like to ask Prairie Dog to show a little more respect in the future please.



Wouldnt it have better to just let it go ? Its not because someone decided to post at random, that it gives your the justification to carry on with what was up to now, a dead argument.


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## benny88 (12 Dec 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Wouldnt it have better to just let it go ? Its not because someone decided to post at random, that it gives your the justification to carry on with what was up to now, a dead argument.



PM inbound to avoid further clutter in this thread.


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Dec 2008)

Highlander60 said:
			
		

> Senior leadership has acknowledged the failure rate stats and has recently made some changes at CFLRS. Many people were VRing for the wrong reasons, so now more focus will be put on "mentoring" as apposed to the "hard nose" approach.



Can you elaborate alittle more on this?  What wrong reasons?  

Change is good, providing quality isn't being sacrificed for quantity (which I am sure we've seen the results of before).


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## dapaterson (16 Dec 2008)

There are higher than average pre-DP1 completion release rates right now.  However, it's not entirely clear what the drivers are:

(1) Is it CFLRS being to hard on students?

(2) Is it schools delivering DP1 training  being too hard?

(3) Are the selection standards adequate?  Or, in the past, were we selecting higher above the minimum standard, and thus seeing greater success; now that we'll bring you in within a month as long as you reach the minimums are we seeing that the minimums are too low?

Current work is to address (1) and (2); reviewing data to assess (3) will take much longer...


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## Cleared Hot (16 Dec 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I'm sorry? You have a problem with people furthering their education?
> 
> What I gather from this is that there are many factors contributing to the lack of success (as opposed to outright 'failure') of some candidates in IAP/BOTP. It could be injury, illness, low level of fitness, VR due to personal reasons, or some combination. I wonder what the actual number is for those who simply fail the courses due to lack of ability, effort, or 'the right stuff' and not for any of the aforementioned reasons. I'm betting it's nowhere near 50%, or even 25%.



But that is the point, there are very few academic challenges per se on BMOQ.  With the exception of a *legitimate* injury or illness all those reasons (esp VR) you list are indicators that the person did not have "the right stuff" as you say.  Also don't forget that instructors have seen course after course and know fairly quickly who will make it and who shouldn't be there.  Yes they say they are shifting to a more mentoring approach but at the end of the day it is very hard to fail a student - you have to very carefully dot all your "I"s  and cross all your "T"s.  It is much easier to "not talk a student out of VRing", so don't make the mistake of counting those out of the stats.  At the end of the day it is all about who is left on grad parade - and I am not talking about BMOQ but your classification training.  The recruiting process may have been frustrating, but it was a snap.  The courses just keep getting harder (at least until you are qualified) - even if you are only joining the Air Force! ;D

So let's be conservative and say 1/4 leave after BMOQ, 1/4 on DP 1.1 then another 1/4 on DP 1.2 your chance of making it through are about 42%.  I don't mean to discourage anyone, just motivate them to take this very seriously.  I know everyone says they will - including the previous 58%


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## Highlander60 (16 Dec 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate alittle more on this?  What wrong reasons?



First of all, this is only second hand info, I work in recruiting right now, not CFLRS. However, we both work for the same org, so we do give and get briefings from time to time in order to try and improve the whole process. I get reports every week on the success rate at BMQ's and BMOQ's when then are running, how and for what reasons they are losing people off the course. For a large number of recruits early on the reason is "wrong career choice". IMHO how would someone know if it is the wrong career choice if they have only been at it for a few days. This would be a good reason for a "mentor" to sit down with them and discuss the real concerns of the recruit with the aim to reduce the amount of VR's for "wrong Career choice" in the first few weeks of the BMQ.


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## TCBF (16 Dec 2008)

Highlander60 said:
			
		

> First of all, this is only second hand info, I work in recruiting right now, not CFLRS. However, we both work for the same org, so we do give and get briefings from time to time in order to try and improve the whole process. I get reports every week on the success rate at BMQ's and BMOQ's when then are running, how and for what reasons they are losing people off the course. For a large number of recruits early on the reason is "wrong career choice". IMHO how would someone know if it is the wrong career choice if they have only been at it for a few days. This would be a good reason for a "mentor" to sit down with them and discuss the real concerns of the recruit with the aim to reduce the amount of VR's for "wrong Career choice" in the first few weeks of the BMQ.



- When I was a Pl Comd at CFLRS, I would on occaision call recuiters to talk about the recruits that they had sent us.  Interesting conversations, by the way.


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## benny88 (16 Dec 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - When I was a Pl Comd at CFLRS, I would on occaision call recuiters to talk about the recruits that they had sent us.  Interesting conversations, by the way.



  Wow no sh*t. Not that I think it's a bad thing, but that suprises me.


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## Highlander60 (16 Dec 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - When I was a Pl Comd at CFLRS, I would on occaision call recuiters to talk about the recruits that they had sent us.  Interesting conversations, by the way.



That's what we need more of, chatting at the cold face level. CMP visited us a few weeks ago and promised to send a bunch from our AOR to St Jean to see things first hand. We also have a few ex CFLRS staff working for us now so that is helping.


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Dec 2008)

Highlander60 said:
			
		

> First of all, this is only second hand info, I work in recruiting right now, not CFLRS. However, we both work for the same org, so we do give and get briefings from time to time in order to try and improve the whole process. I get reports every week on the success rate at BMQ's and BMOQ's when then are running, how and for what reasons they are losing people off the course. For a large number of recruits early on the reason is "wrong career choice". IMHO how would someone know if it is the wrong career choice if they have only been at it for a few days. This would be a good reason for a "mentor" to sit down with them and discuss the real concerns of the recruit with the aim to reduce the amount of VR's for "wrong Career choice" in the first few weeks of the BMQ.



Might be 2nd hand but you are plugged into that network.  CFRG and CDA-CFLRS have a vested interest in the work you folks do.

So..it seems like it hasn't changed in 19 years then...people are still doubting "the army" after they realize its not all like the movies.


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## Negative One (21 Dec 2008)

The majority of those that don't make it through don't out of either choice (some realise that the CF isn't for them) or recourse (due to injuries, etc).


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## poiriernb (22 Jul 2009)

Hi all, I don't want  to re-open this topic incorrectly, but I had a few questions about failure due to injury.  I am heading to BMOQ in September, I'm in good shape, I'm not VRing cause I'm putting all my eggs in this basket (ill go bankrupt if I VR!) Anyhow, I'm worried about getting injured.  Am I released from the forces? Do I get recoursed?  Do I have to be there a certain amount of time, so that if I do get injured I'm recoursed?


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## George Wallace (22 Jul 2009)

For the most part, it will probably depend on the extent of your injury.  A minor sprain may have you miss a few days of training.  A torn ligament may have you Returned to your Unit.   A spinal injury may see you Released.


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## ruckmarch (22 Jul 2009)

poiriernb said:
			
		

> Hi all, I don't want  to re-open this topic incorrectly, but I had a few questions about failure due to injury.  I am heading to BMOQ in September, I'm in good shape, I'm not VRing cause I'm putting all my eggs in this basket (ill go bankrupt if I VR!) Anyhow, I'm worried about getting injured.  Am I released from the forces? Do I get recoursed?  Do I have to be there a certain amount of time, so that if I do get injured I'm recoursed?



OK...I'll answer this from what I know from st jean. First off the staff are human too and know that people are bound to get injured, it's inevitable on every platoon. PT takes it's toll on some people, and so does the O-Course.

There is only a number of hours you can miss before they start thinking recoursing you or give you the chance to join another platoon that is a few weeks behind. We lost a few people during IAP and 3 people two weeks before graduation due to exhaustion and inability to carry out there mission, which would have involved tactical moves down a dark 2-5km  road at 1-5am in the morning in NOV.

The 3 folks did however join platoons that were a couple of weeks behind and graduated. It's all down to how much of a fighter you are, and if they see that you really want it. One guy broke his ankle at the begining of BOTP and still managed to graduate with us.

Push yourself for sure, but don't overdo things, always save that extra. I was at times accused of being a light-bulb for switching it on and off......my reason for doing that, I didn't want to end spending more than 13 wks at the MEGA.


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## poiriernb (22 Jul 2009)

Oh ok, thanks a lot for all your feedback! So basically what I gather, if its a pretty major injury, there's a good chance you could be sent home (which is understandable) and if its sort of a minor injury, you can man up and push yourself, or get recoursed.  My next questions, what about a major injury after basic? LTD? Or are you released if its serious to the point you can't adequately do your job?  Or would they OT you do a trade you could do?


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## George Wallace (22 Jul 2009)

poiriernb said:
			
		

> Oh ok, thanks a lot for all your feedback! So basically what I gather, if its a pretty major injury, there's a good chance you could be sent home (which is understandable) and if its sort of a minor injury, you can man up and push yourself, or get recoursed.  My next questions, what about a major injury after basic? LTD? Or are you released if its serious to the point you can't adequately do your job?  Or would they OT you do a trade you could do?



I thought I answered that.

Let's face it.  You don't have a Trade.  You only have a few months in the military.  Why would they want to give you an OT if you have a major injury.  You will LIKELY BE RELEASED.

Same thing as would apply if you were BMQ.  No difference.


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## poiriernb (22 Jul 2009)

WOW, thank you Mr.Wallace for that snappy reply!  I am quite capable of reading responses, and not repeating myself thank you.  Maybe next time you respond to a question, you might want to read the whole thing first.  Now, if you had read it fully, you would know that I asked what happened if you were injured AFTER BASIC TRAINING!!! Meaning, basic training has been completed, it could be 10 years from now, 15 years, hell even 20! Please don't talk to me like im 12 years old, i'm a human being just like you, and we're gonna be on the same team come Sept.7 and as a senior member you should try and make us newbies feel a little more welcome, and inclined to ask more questions without fear of being called down in front of the entire CF


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## George Wallace (22 Jul 2009)

Shall we backtrack some here?




			
				poiriernb said:
			
		

> WOW, thank you Mr.Wallace for that snappy reply!  I am quite capable of reading responses, and not repeating myself thank you.  Maybe next time you respond to a question, you might want to read the whole thing first.  Now, if you had read it fully, you would know that I asked what happened if you were injured AFTER BASIC TRAINING!!! Meaning, basic training has been completed, it could be 10 years from now, 15 years, hell even 20! Please don't talk to me like im 12 years old, i'm a human being just like you, and we're gonna be on the same team come Sept.7 and as a senior member you should try and make us newbies feel a little more welcome, and inclined to ask more questions without fear of being called down in front of the entire CF





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I thought I answered that.
> 
> Let's face it.  You don't have a Trade.  You only have a few months in the military.  Why would they want to give you an OT if you have a major injury.  You will LIKELY BE RELEASED.
> 
> Same thing as would apply if you were BMQ.  No difference.





			
				poiriernb said:
			
		

> Oh ok, thanks a lot for all your feedback! So basically what I gather, if its a pretty major injury, there's a good chance you could be sent home (which is understandable) and if its sort of a minor injury, you can man up and push yourself, or get recoursed.  My next questions, what about a major injury after basic? LTD? Or are you released if its serious to the point you can't adequately do your job?  Or would they OT you do a trade you could do?



After Basic, you still don't have a Trade.  You did not specify having a Trade.  As this topic is about Basic Training, one can not assume that YOU have not derailed the topic to discuss a fully trained person with 10, 15, 20 or whatever years of Service.  This isn't the forum for that, so one can not read your mind as to what you may be trying to ask outside of the forum topics.

But thanks for the insight as to who you are.

Good luck in your endeavors and don't put any further thought into getting injured (I will assume that you are not hiding a current injury from the CFRC staff.) and instead strive to be as physically fit as possible, so as to avoid possible injury.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Jul 2009)

poiriernb said:
			
		

> WOW, thank you Mr.Wallace for that snappy reply!  I am quite capable of reading responses, and not repeating myself thank you.  Maybe next time you respond to a question, you might want to read the whole thing first.  Now, if you had read it fully, you would know that I asked what happened if you were injured AFTER BASIC TRAINING!!! Meaning, basic training has been completed, it could be 10 years from now, 15 years, hell even 20! Please don't talk to me like im 12 years old, i'm a human being just like you, and we're gonna be on the same team come Sept.7 and as a senior member you should try and make us newbies feel a little more welcome, and inclined to ask more questions without fear of being called down in front of the entire CF


Please get off your high horse. You were given the same answer a few times in different forms. Same as you asking the same question a couple of times. All the variables apply. BMQ, BMOQ, trade courses or career time. Hurt yourself bad enough, you're gone. If the service thinks they can salvage you, they'll try. We can't diagnose or predict every scenario you may encounter. You'll just have to accept our generalities for now.

Locked

Milnet.ca Staff


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