# Anti-terrorism squads raid Ottawa homes



## girlfiredup

Web Posted | Mar 30 2004 09:14 AM EST 

News Writer
c/o Mike Woloschuk
Online News
Journalist
CBC Montreal

Anti-terrorism squads raid Ottawa homes 
OTTAWA - Armed RCMP anti-terrorism squads raided and searched two locations in Ottawa Monday, arresting one man in an apparent national security operation.


The office of Public Safety Minister Anne McLellan was notified late Monday about the raids, conducted by the RCMP‘s national security investigation section with the involvement of international agencies, sources told CBC News.

RCMP spokesperson Nathalie Deschenes would not reveal much about the operation, other than to say: "We are the lead on this investigation. We are investigating this criminal activity. I can‘t confirm if anybody else is with us on this."

Dozens of officers raided the two-storey home of a Pakistani-born economist on a suburban street in Orléans Monday afternoon, marking it off with yellow tape, and continuing to search it into the early morning hours Tuesday.

Police came and went in the darkness for several hours as reporters waited for information. Across the street from the house, a woman wearing a hijab sat in the back of an unmarked car, answering questions posed by two other women with notebooks.

A neighbour, Trudy Churchill, said a husband and wife, as well as a number of teen and adult children, have lived in the home for a number of years. 

"The mother is kind of quiet," said Churchill. "She‘ll just say ‘hi,‘ but the dad, he‘ll ask how you‘re doing, a little bit of conversation. The kids are very quiet though."

The house is listed as being occupied by Dr. Mahboob Khawaja, once listed on the faculty of Syracuse University and the author of a book and several essays about Muslims and the West.

Khawaja is a native of Pakistan‘s northwest Frontier Province, near the border with Afghanistan. He was in Saudi Arabia, where he teaches economics, when the RCMP SWAT team stormed his home.

Qamar Masood, president of the Canada-Pakistan Association of the National Capital Region, knows the family, and has spoken to them, since the raid.

Masood says he believes that one of Khawaja‘s sons, Momin, was arrested. and that he works as a contractor for the Department of National Defence. Police confirm they arrested one man, but hadn‘t identified or charged him by Tuesday morning.

Police also searched another location in the Ottawa region, but wouldn‘t say where.


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## scm77

I thought the RCMP gave anti-terrorism to JTF2.  They must still do some stuff though.  I especially like the guys name "Dr. Mahboob".


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## girlfiredup

I‘m sure JTF 2 had a part to play in the raid or events leading up to it.   Yeah!!!!  I like that.  I like it when we hear about our canadian anti-terrorist organizations getting the job done.    :akimbo:   As for the guy‘s name Mahboob, not cool.  I‘d be changing my name real fast.


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## Jarnhamar

Of course the jtf HAD to be involved. Not like its a job for law enforcement.

I AM glad we are cracking down on these idiots though. Catch em and deport em or put them to work.


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## MJP

> As for the guy‘s name Mahboob, not cool. I‘d be changing my name real fast.


That‘s a pretty rude remark don‘t you think?  Are you basing your remark on the fact that his name is not a "traditional" Canadian name like Joe or Mike?  Or is it something deeper?  Inquiring minds would love your insight into this matter.


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## girlfiredup

If you are insinuating that I am prejudice, you are wrong.  My remark is based on the fact the name is too closely related to a breast but the real meaning of boob is "A stupid or foolish person; a dolt" and in this case, if Mahboob is responsible for plotting terrorism then the name suits him fine.


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## MJP

Not trying to insinuate anything....just pointing out that you just left a unclear statement that could be taken in the wrong context. TBYP


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## Jarnhamar

PC Police


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## scm77

Do you think that they just called them "Armed RCMP Anti-Terrorist squads" becuase JTF2 is so secret squirrel, and they don‘t want to reveal their missions?  :akimbo:


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## Jarnhamar

Peace through strenght


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## bossi

What?  Public discussion of JTF2??
Lean closer to your monitors ... (we‘re going to have to kill ALL of you  ... chuckle).

Of course, it‘s all purely speculation, but ... similar to recent activity in Britain whereby MI5 and civilian police officers conducted the raids, one might reasonably expect that the RCMP and other civilian tactical police units conducted the raids in Ottawa - presuming that the threat assessment/analysis indicated it was safe to do so (i.e. if they were arresting an accountant for money-laundering on behalf of a terrorist organisation, and if there was no probability of encountering armed resistance ... I think Dudley Do-Right can handle it ...).
The use of civilian police also sends a powerful message:  Criminal suspects were arrested (vice "Freedom Fighters attacked by Army" ...).
But, this is all "armchair quarterback" musing ...


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## bossi

More ... 
(I wonder why certain journalists focussed on the Muslim side of this story - were they trying to incite racial/religious hatred, or perhaps attempting to undermine a police investigation by subtle allegations of racism/profiling, or were they pandering to a Marxist editor ... ?).

Also - there‘s a classic example of stupidity in this report - they have marked a neighbour for retaliation ... one wonders whether this was complete incompetence or stupidity on the part of the journalist, or an under-handed way of blading somebody who co-operated with a police investigation (and thereby intimidating others from doing so in the future) - I hope the neighbour sues the newspaper for the cost of relocation(!)



> Ottawa Muslims held in global terror sweep
> ‘They think they were making bombs‘
> 
> Isabel Teotonio, Vito Pilieci and Gary Dimmock, with files from Don Campbell
> The Ottawa Citizen
> Tuesday, March 30, 2004
> 
> 
> A handful of Ottawa Muslims were being questioned last night in what authorities described as an international terror probe that saw heavily-armed Mounties storm the home of one of the city‘s most prominent Muslims.
> 
> At 1:30 p.m. yesterday, RCMP tactical units, acting on security intelligence briefs, fanned out across the city, arresting one young Muslim man and questioning several others.
> 
> The raids followed a month-long RCMP surveillance operation targeting the Orleans home of Mahboob A. Khawaja, who is presently teaching at a university in Saudi Arabia.
> 
> Reached there last night, Mr. Khawaja said he was "extremely disturbed" by the raid.
> 
> "It‘s nothing more than a hoax to create embarrassment," he said in a telephone interview. "I don‘t have the facts about why they would raid my house and take my two children into custody."
> 
> The Mounties forced their way into his home, but their target was nowhere to be found. Instead, they found two of Mr. Khawaja‘s adult children.
> 
> His wife, Azra, had gone out for some afternoon shopping and was picked up by police at a shopping centre.
> 
> Later in the day, RCMP arrested a Muslim man linked to the house.
> 
> According to his friends, one of Mr. Khawaja‘s four sons was taken away yesterday by RCMP as he walked the hallways of the University of Ottawa, school books in hand.
> 
> Mohsan Khawaja has not been charged with any crime and the RCMP would not say why they wanted to talk with the economics student. His brother, Tanzeel Khawaja, studies at Carleton University.
> 
> The RCMP would not disclose details of the probe. However, Qamar Masood, president of the Canada-Pakistan Association of the National Capital Region, arrived at the home last night. He says he later spoke with Mr. Khawaja‘s wife. "She said they think that they were making bombs or something of that nature. But she said, of course, that‘s impossible."
> 
> Mr. Khawaja also said the police alleged that his children had been making bombs.
> 
> "Bombs? I don‘t think there is any substance to this allegation," said Mr. Khawaja. "No way. It‘s nothing more than a hoax. Maybe some kids were picking on them -- but no way, they‘re educated guys ... It doesn‘t make any sense."
> 
> "I know my children, they‘re not involved in this kind of thing. We are a very peaceful educated family. We have nothing to do with this notion of security risk, or bomb making This whole thing sounds absurd to me. It‘s created a lot of inconvenience for my family," Mr. Khawaja said.
> 
> So far, only one suspect has been arrested. He has yet to be named, let alone charged, although police expect to make a "major announcement" later this week.
> 
> The RCMP insisted yesterday that Mr. Khawaja‘s family, including his wife and some of the adult children, were not being held.
> 
> Yesterday‘s raid has rattled Ottawa‘s tight-knit Muslim community, with many expressing fears of more arrests. Others hope that police suspicions are a misunderstanding.
> 
> "They are a very nice family with nice kids and well liked in the community," said Fazal Khan, a longtime friend and president of Islamic Society of Cumberland.
> 
> Mr. Khan said one of the Khawaja sons, Momin, worked for the federal government as a computer engineer.
> 
> Momin Khawaja could often be seen praying at Bilal Mosque on Innes Road in Blackburn Hamlet. The mosque, a converted house, has a basketball net in the lane, much like the one at the family‘s middle-class home.
> 
> "I just hope that this is all a misunderstanding," said Mr. Khan.
> 
> Mr. Khawaja has five children, four sons: Mohsan, Tanzeel, Momin and Qasim, and one daughter, Sabeen. His children were born and raised in Canada, while Mr. Khawaja teaches abroad.
> 
> The family is respected within the Muslim community, and praised for their intelligence and volunteer work.
> 
> Mr. Khawaja, an academic who has authored several publications on conflict resolution, including a book, Muslims and the West: Quest for Change and Conflict Resolution, which was published in 2000.
> 
> In the book, Mr. Khawaja argues for a better understanding of fundamentalism, noting that it is often laden with "negative connotations." The author analyses world conflict and the difficulty of finding "meeting grounds" for the two societies. He has also criticized Arab leaders as "leaderless."
> 
> He wrote this about the invasion of Iraq: "American and specially-hired Brits -- Tony Blair‘s war protagonists -- do believe that it was a real war fought against Saddam Hussein (their former faithful client), and it ended in American victory and success even though the WMD hoax was a stage drama, nothing other than a planned deception and treachery to the collective conscience of humanity that demonstrated strong opposition against the American planned war.
> 
> "Arab leaders celebrate the American success in Iraq, but prey at their own people under the disguise of terrorism to dispel any sign of public resentment against the American intransigence and aggression in Iraq. Even the Arab League ... could not dare to name America as the aggressor in Iraq. Deception and treachery knows no bound," wrote Mr. Khawaja, who has a PhD.
> 
> Neighbours and friends of the quiet family were shaken yesterday when the convoy of heavily armed RCMP officers stormed the home, located at 672 Princess Louise Dr.
> 
> They broke through the front door of the white, two-storey home.
> 
> Into the night, the RCMP could be seen scouring the house for clues. The house was cordoned off with police tape and is being treated as a crime scene.
> 
> As of late last night, Cpl. Nathalie Deschenes would only say that the raid was part of a "criminal investigation" and the residents of the home in Orleans were not in custody. No charges have been laid.
> 
> Those who lived in the house were asked to leave while police prepared for an intense search. At times, up to 20 Mounties could be seen coming and going from the property.
> 
> As day turned to night, Mounties could be seen eating takeout chicken, delivered in a dinner wagon.
> 
> The RCMP approached neighbours about a month ago, asking for permission to use their property to stage around-the-clock surveillance from unmarked cars, parked in a driveway three doors down.
> 
> Sulaiman Khan, director of Islamic Information and Education Centre on Lisgar Street, was stunned by the news of the raid.
> 
> "I‘ve known them for many years and the boys are exemplary in their behaviour," said Mr. Khan.
> 
> "The boys are very quiet, they‘re never boisterous or loud. Everybody in the community knows them because they are so good."


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## devil39

> Originally posted by Ghost778:
> [qb] Of course the jtf HAD to be involved. Not like its a job for law enforcement.
> 
> I AM glad we are cracking down on these idiots though. Catch em and deport em or put them to work. [/qb]


Sure Ghost.

Could it possibly be like the article stated?  An RCMP SWAT (well really ERT) and some National Security Invesigators?

Unless you have some insight we don‘t have.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

devil39
Look under the "S" and read the definition for sarcasm.


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## Michael Dorosh

What‘s wrong with the name Mike?  Despite the fact that guys with that name are all boobs, I mean.


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## devil39

> Originally posted by Bruce Monkhouse:
> [qb] devil39
> Look under the "S" and read the definition for sarcasm. [/qb]


Ahh... the subtle nuances of expression in the electronic medium.   Must have missed that somehow.


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## Slim

> Originally posted by Masterful_Marksman:
> [qb] The RCMP WAS in charge of Anti-Terrorism up until 1993 when members of the unit started complaining that Anti-terrorism involved hurting people and that it went against their oath to protect people and thus were subsequently disbanded.  The government then created JTF2.
> ~Masterful~ [/qb]


Thanks, Sunshine, for your "masterful" insite on the RCMP TRU team...I don‘t suppose you actually have any proof to back up your statement do you?

The team was created for a smaller role than JTF2 currently holds...The RCMP couldn‘t staff or fund what JTF now does. Also, the CF has the infastructure to support them. The RCMP is a Police agency, not a military, and is not set up for international operations.

Maybe somne research would be in order before you favour us with another well informed "masterful" statement!


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## Infanteer

B-b-b-b-ut I read it on the internet, Slim.

Everyone‘s an expert these days.

Muddledup-marksboy, if that is the truth, than how do you explain the FBI HRT team, considering they are a very similar organization?


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## Pieman

> (I wonder why certain journalists focussed on the Muslim side of this story - were they trying to incite racial/religious hatred, or perhaps attempting to undermine a police investigation by subtle allegations of racism/profiling, or were they pandering to a Marxist editor ... ?).


Bossi, often the Muslim side of the story is not told. You say that they are undermining the investigation, but rather do you really feel that it is right for the govenment to be spying on citizens to the magnitude that they are? There are two sides to every story.

There are plenty of people who are being spied on by our government simply because they are muslim. 
I know of many people in the muslim commmunity here who have their phone tapped by CSIS simply because they go to a Mosque to pray. Is that just or right?

Granted there are some bad apples around, but that is in any religion. Where does the government draw the line when spying on it‘s own citizens?

Where is the religious freedom in this country? I don‘t see it anymore. Why is the government not spying on Christians just in case another David Karesh (sp?) and religious fanatics start causing trouble? So you say the story was undermined by racial/religion profiling, well, I am afraid that is exactly what happened. 

The government may or may not have taken a bad person into custody, but at what cost?


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## Slim

> Originally posted by Pieman:
> , but rather do you really feel that it is right for the govenment to be spying on citizens to the magnitude that they are? There are two sides to every story. [/QB]


In case you hadn‘t noticed we are at WAR. You know the thing where two sides decide they have a disagreement and decide to fight it out...Maybe you don‘t recognize this war because the defenders aren‘t fighting openly...But then neither are the aggressors! If you expect anyone to shed tears on a few trampled civil liberties while the police and security services try to stop a bad group of people from blowing up our cities here in Canada you have another thing coming!

What gets me going is that people have no sense of right and wrong...Never mind the civil rights you‘re whining about, what do you think will happen if a hard line muslim government ever takes power here in Canada...Want me to paint you a picture? Well for starters there wouldn‘t be a forum like this for pussies like  you to whine about how the Big Bad police aren‘t being fare! They‘re trying to save our lives from people who very much want the lot of us dead, whether they admit it or not. This is a war...Get used to it or ******* leave!
 

Slim

Who is very tired of Liberal whiners!

P.S. And do us all a favour...The way you have yourself marketed here may lead people to mistakenly think you‘re a soldier when you‘re not. I would consider changing that picture.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

1. OK, I‘ll bite... so whats the cost little Pieman?
2. You happen to know MANY who have had thier phone tapped by CSIS.   Produce it or shut up!
3.Where‘s the religous freedom?  Go to a worship site of your choosing this morning or don‘t. Here is your freedom.Just remember a whole generation suffered to hand you that right. Stop degrading them by your pathetic twisting of logic.
4.And of course I‘m just wondering how high you are in the govt. to KNOW that they‘re not spying on christians.  Produce it or shut up!
5. The people who whine about govt. spying are those who have the most to hide. What are YOU hiding little boy????
6.Slim,


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## Slim

> Originally posted by Bruce Monkhouse:
> [qb] 2. You happen to know MANY who have had thier phone tapped by CSIS.   Produce it or shut up! [/qb]


Bruce

...Thanks for mentioning that...I got so choked at him that I forgot to included that part!

Thanks for watching my back Brother!

Slim


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## Pieman

I figured this post would not be popular, but it seems some of you need to try to understand my position a little harder.

Slim, please try to be less emotional. Other people have different opinions than you. As for my profile, please note *‘Civilian‘* clearly marked under the picture. 



> If you expect anyone to shed tears on a few trampled civil liberties while the police and security services try to stop a bad group of people from blowing up our cities here in Canada you have another thing coming!


Where? I did not see any cities explode in Canada, did you? Did they really stop anything? Maybe they did, and if so good for them. However, you say ‘A few civil liberties‘, really? What is a * ‘few‘* civil liberties? Shall we stop at taking people‘s right to having a private phone conversation, or shall we go right ahead and let the government arrest and imprison anyone they want. Not enough for you? How about torture? Why don‘t we let the government torture people if it feels that someone ‘may‘ be a threat. 

This War, (and believe me I KNOW we are at war) is a war that can be fought WITHOUT compromising EVERYTHING our soldiers have fought for and lost their lives for! Our freedom of thought and expression. Are you so willing and prepared to let a few terrorists take that away from you? 

Bruce, I will answer your questions, however, next time please poise your questions in a more mature fashion. There is no need to try to belittle someone simply because they have a different opinion than you. Respectful debate yields many positive results.



> 1. OK, I‘ll bite... so what's the cost little Pieman?


How about I listen in on your telephone conversations. Follow you and your family around; ask questions about you to neighbors. Dig through your garbage. Photograph you. Take your finger prints. Take DNA samples. And if you seem uncooperative I will arrest you and hold you in confinement without laying any charges. Then, *YOU * can tell me what the cost is.



> 2. You happen to know MANY who have had their phone tapped by CSIS. Produce it or shut up!


Do you really expect me to be able to ‘produce‘ proof of this on a message board? Sorry, but let‘s stick to reality. If you are really interested, come over to my friend's house and listen to the crappy phone tap CSIS has on there. Come to the local mosque and listen to the crappy phone tap CSIS has on there. Talk to the CSIS agents who come to my friends house and question him and his family. Not mention several other people I know going through the same kind of harassment. 



> 3.Where‘s the religious freedom? Go to a worship site of your choosing this morning or don‘t. Here is your freedom. Just remember a whole generation suffered to hand you that right. Stop degrading them by your pathetic twisting of logic


That is the very right that is being taken away, which is my point! If I go to a Mosque, I know that I will be persecuted because of that. How is that not taking my right of religion away? That right is what my grandparents fought for, so do not speak to me about appreciating freedom! It is this very freedom that I am saying is in serious trouble in this country. The only twist in logic here is your misunderstanding of my point of view.



> 4.And of course I‘m just wondering how high you are in the govt. to KNOW that they‘re not spying on Christians. Produce it or shut up!


How many priests in your community have complained about their phones being tapped or people coming to their door and questioning them? Funny, because I see a lot Muslim religious leaders complaining about that. You don‘t need to be on any level of gov. too see there is not activity there.



> 5. The people who whine about govt. spying are those who have the most to hide. What are YOU hiding little boy????


I hide nothing. What am I afraid of? I am afraid that one day I am going to wake up to a country called Canada that no longer takes care of its citizens, but persecutes them for their opinions. I am afraid of losing all the values that we hold up high and what our troops have fought for, only to discover we threw them all away because of a few terrorists. Why are you so afraid to see things from another perspective? Why are you so eager to toss away these values?


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## bossi

Pieman,
Since you‘ve asked others to be more careful with their posts, I‘ll thank you to do the same.
I did not at any time "...  *say*  that they are undermining the investigation, ...".  Rather, instead, I posed several questions.  So, if it‘s all the same to you, I‘d prefer you didn‘t twist my words.

And, in my personal opinion, I feel that our law enforcement agencies are in a difficult position - none of the hi-jackers on September 11th were card-carrying members of the St Andrew‘s Society (for example) ... and North America is full of shrill libertarians only too ready to decry the actions of "the establishment".

I guess the best analogy is fishing - sometimes one must cast a wide net in order to catch something.


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## Pieman

bossi, you are correct. 

I should have used the word ‘speculate‘ or something to that effect, rather than ‘say‘.
Either way, I did not mean to twist or take more meaning in your words than you intended.


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## Slim

> Originally posted by Pieman:
> [qb] . If you are really interested, come over to my friend's house and listen to the crappy phone tap CSIS has on there. Come to the local mosque and listen to the crappy phone tap CSIS has on there. Talk to the CSIS agents who come to my friends house and question him and his family. Not mention several other people I know going through the same kind of harassment. [/qb]


I have a hard time believing any of the above. And I‘ll tell you why.

In the intelligence community a "phone tap" is called " Technical surveillance". Contrary to popular belief you can‘t here anything on the line when someone taps your phone you won‘t know it. The government does it from a bell sub-station. there is nothing on your line to hear. They also need a warrent from a Judge to do it.

 Stop pretending to be something you are not!

Conspirecy theories do nothing but feed paranoia and is dangerous!


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## Jarnhamar

Where is the religious freedom? You try going into a country in the middle east and praying to whomever.  We may not be perfect but i think Canada is doing pretty good when it comes to respecting EVERYONS religion and herritage.

CSIS is taping peoples phones, thats not big news. The goverment has been listening to phone calls since world war 2 (Which stopped what was it, 40 thousand german immigrants in the states from marching on Toronto and Ottawa to keep canada out of the war?)


I‘m sure your friends aren‘t the only ones being spied on. Unfortinuatly their finding RPGs, C4 explosives and terrorist training manuals in islamic schools or mosques (can‘t remember which?)so they are obviousl going to put more man power and time into checking that out. Those few individuals whom are into that stuff are ruining it for the rest of the community, don‘t blame the police for doing their job guy.

It‘s not that the police are ignoring "white" crime and going after whoever. If you are trying to say that than your just as bad as the biased media only reporting one side of the story.


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## Pieman

> In the intelligence community a "phone tap" is called " Technical surveillance". Contrary to popular belief you can‘t here anything on the line when someone taps your phone you won‘t know it. The government does it from a bell sub-station. there is nothing on your line to hear. They also need a warrent from a Judge to do it.


Believe what you wish. The phone is tapped or being has ‘Technical surveillance‘ being used. It is clear their technology uses a speech recognition program as you hear a slight ‘click‘ and the volume is decreased when key words are spoken. i.e. dates, times, etc. This is pretty high class equipment, but it is not invisible or undetectable. Either way, I cannot prove or support this any further on a bulletin board.



> Where is the religious freedom? You try going into a country in the middle east and praying to whomever. We may not be perfect but i think Canada is doing pretty good when it comes to respecting EVERYONS religion and herritage.


This is my point; they are NOT respecting people‘s religious freedoms anymore by targeting people because of their religion. I am saying they degrade Canadian values by using these methods to locate terrorists. Someone mentioned the need to cast a wide net in a difficult situation. Does this net really have to interfere with and degrade our values at a fundamental level? There are other methods for this madness.


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## Pieman

> Unfortinuatly their finding RPGs, C4 explosives and terrorist training manuals in islamic schools or mosques (can‘t remember which?)so they are obviousl going to put more man power and time into checking that out. Those few individuals whom are into that stuff are ruining it for the rest of the community, don‘t blame the police for doing their job guy.


Please show me where police did find terrorist manuals, RPGs, and C4 explosives in islamic schools or mosques. I am unware of one single case of that happening in Canada. IF you cannot show me, please do not make things up to support your claim.


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## girlfiredup

Did anyone catch the write up on the citizen this morning?  I thought what Khawaja‘s brother had to say was amusing.. "All they had to do was ask.  They didn‘t have to kick the door down."

As I write this, there are 6 raids happening right now simultaneously throughout the Nations Capital.  Also, at 2:30 pm est, a news conference is being held with security officials from Ottawa, Toronto, and Washington.

Tomorrow‘s headlines should be interesting.


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## Jarnhamar

I‘m too lazy to show you to be quite honest and im not trying to prove anything. It was either in the news paper or on the news. Police raided some kind of islamic school or something and found RPG,s C4 and some other things. Someone else on here is bound to have heard about it.

I don‘t see it as the canadian police targeting muslims. I see it as the canadian police got information about someone that just happened to be muslim or islamic, whatever, and acted on it. As per normal, people throw up the race/religion card. It‘s one thing if they dont find something, thats harassment. But they ARE finding stuff.

This has nothing to do with respecting a certian religion.  Criminals are criminals whatever race or religion they are.


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## girlfiredup

RCMP NEWS RELEASE

RCMP lays charges under Sections 83.18 and 83.19 of the Criminal Code

OTTAWA - March 30, 2004 - On March 29, 2004, members of the RCMP executed search warrants at two locations in Ottawa. These warrants were obtained lawfully and judicially after a careful review of the supporting affidavit material. The search warrants were for the residence and workplace of Mr. Mohammad Momin Khawaja of Ottawa.

Today, Mr. Khawaja, a 29-year-old Canadian born citizen, has been charged pursuant to sections 83.18 and 83.19 of the Criminal Code of Canada. These sections, introduced as part of the Anti-Terrorism Act on December 24, 2001, make it an offence to knowingly participate in or contribute to the activities of a terrorist group and to knowingly facilitate a terrorist activity.

In the interest of accuracy the charges are as follows:

That Mr. Khawaja did:

1) On or between November 10, 2003 and March 29, 2004, at or near the City of Ottawa, in the Province of Ontario and at or near the City of London, England, did knowingly participate in or contribute to, directly or indirectly, an activity of a terrorist group, for the purpose of enhancing the ability of a terrorist group to facilitate or carry out a terrorist activity, as defined in section 83.01(1) of the Criminal Code, thus committing an indictable offence, contrary to section 83.18 of the Criminal Code.

2) On or between November 10, 2003 and March 29, 2004, at or near the City of Ottawa, in the Province of Ontario and at or near the City of London, England, did knowingly facilitate a terrorist activity, as defined in section 83.01 (1) of the Criminal Code, thus committing an indictable offence, contrary to section 83.19 of the Criminal Code.

Mr. Khawaja appeared in court today at 1:30 p.m. in Ottawa at which time he was remanded in custody until Friday, April 2, 2004 at 1:30 p.m. A publication ban on the proceedings was granted by the court.

This investigation has resulted in much interest and speculation. Certain details about the arrest and searches conducted yesterday can be provided notwithstanding the publication ban:

At approximately 1:30 p.m. on March 29th RCMP members arrested Mr. Khawaja at his work place and conducted a search. 


A search warrant was also executed at Mr. Khawaja‘s residence at 672 Princess Louise Drive, Ottawa. The RCMP Emergency Response Team entered and secured the residence. To ensure the integrity of the scene, two of the occupants who were home at the time were removed from the residence. The preventive arrest provisions of the Anti-Terrorism Act were not used. The occupants were not arrested. 


The RCMP worked closely with the Ottawa Police Service in ensuring the safety and security of police personnel, residents and the public in the immediate area of the search. The search was concluded at approximately 1:30 Tuesday morning March 30th. 


The RCMP would like to assure Canadians that it is working closely with all its partners to ensure public safety and security. The RCMP‘s primary objective is safe homes and safe communities for all Canadians. The RCMP has an obligation to investigate all possible leads and information pertaining to criminal activity or potential threats. 
The Ottawa Muslim community has raised concerns about this investigation. The RCMP acknowledges these concerns and wishes to assure Ottawa‘s Muslim community that it practices bias-free policing. The RCMP has a zero tolerance policy towards racial profiling and racially biased policing. Neither is consistent with our core values. The RCMP does not target individuals or groups based on their racial, cultural or religious backgrounds. 

The actions taken yesterday were directed at criminal activity with respect to national security. 

The RCMP acknowledges that members of the Muslim community are law abiding citizens. The RCMP will continue to meet with community leaders and other representatives to address any concerns they may have.

As this matter is now before the courts, it would not be appropriate to provide any further details at this time. This is a complex investigation. The RCMP wishes to thank the media and the public for their patience and understanding. The RCMP is committed to updating the media and the public with further information when it is possible.


----------



## clasper

> Originally posted by Ghost778:
> [qb] I‘m too lazy to show you to be quite honest[/qb]


Well your credibility just took a big hit.



> Originally posted by Bruce Monkhouse:
> [qb] Produce it or shut up![/qb]


----------



## clasper

> Originally posted by Pieman:
> [qb]Believe what you wish. The phone is tapped or being has ‘Technical surveillance‘ being used. It is clear their technology uses a speech recognition program as you hear a slight ‘click‘ and the volume is decreased when key words are spoken. i.e. dates, times, etc. This is pretty high class equipment, but it is not invisible or undetectable. Either way, I cannot prove or support this any further on a bulletin board.
> [/qb]


So your voice is being recorded and fed into a software package, and then when the software recognizes a key word, you hear a click as it records the data?      That just doesn‘t make sense.  Why would the software click at you?

I‘m not saying the phone line you describe isn‘t bugged, but if CSIS was listening in, you wouldn‘t be able to tell from the sounds you hear through the receiver.  If some vigilante wingnut tried to bug the line, who knows what clicks and chirps you might hear, but the professionals are a little more sophisticated.


----------



## Jarnhamar

****.  Do you think maybe in the future if i try hard i can gain some of that credibility back? Because i‘m gonna lose somesleep over this      

Just because you guys are making a big deal about it i checked through the papers from last week (Standard freeholder out of cornwall) but my wife threw em out. 
Guess i‘m a liar. Or just couldnt care to prove something to someone talking about government plots and wiretaps..

Pieman tell your friend to wear a tinfoil hat when talking on the phone, it‘s sure to stop any type of bug and/or brainwave recording software they have.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I just heard about an organized crime bust around North America. News conference to follow, I hope they‘re not white christians cause I‘m not sure Tartboy could handle the shock of it.  CHEERS


----------



## scm77




----------



## buglog1

I am with Slim on the RCM Police and their capablity / role pre- and post-JTF2‘s inception.  At a bureaucratic level, I think a perception that the ERT team was ‘slow on the draw‘ did exist.  The believe was that because they were there - in a nutshell - to serve and protect, they may hesitate when it was time to boogie.  I am fairly comfortable saying that this was simply not the case.  The members that made it onto ERT were some very hard people - and they were drawn from the member pool - a pool that is not unlike the one that exists today.  To suggest that because JTF2 took ownership and a much broader mandate from the bureaucratically beleaguered ERT, the RCM Police does not maintain a highly capable tactical team PARTICULARLY in the NCR is a little bit silly.  Don‘t ya think?

PE


----------



## Pieman

Whoever hacked into my profile, I have reported you to the owner of this sight.

I never have seen a more immature and disrespectful group of people. 

You cannot stand that somone has a different opinion than you, so you act like kids.

Perhaps we could meet at the bike racks at recess and settle this. But then again, you Moms might be angry if you came home from kindergarden late.


----------



## Infanteer

Welcome to Army.ca.

I was the one who changed your profile.  As a moderator it is fully within my abilities to do so.  Consider it a subtle message that the avatar you are displaying sends the message that you are a soldier.  You obviously are not, and this aggrevates some of the senior members of this board.  If you want, I can choose an avatar for you.

As for the "immature and disrespectful" group of people here, most of them have contributed a significant portion of there lives securing this country and dealing first hand with the situation you see here.  Their opinions have been formed through blood, sweat, and tears.  Trust me, there is more to the world then the hallowed halls of the University of Calgary.  If you don‘t like the opinions of the soldiers at *ARMY.CA*, the door is always open.  I‘m sure the forums of Libertarian.ca or the Canadian Human Rights Commission would love to hear your thoughts. 

Bottom line:  If you‘re going to post something, post it.  If you‘re going to whine, leave.

Cheers,

The Staff


----------



## Jarnhamar

Id like to meet you at the bike racks and give you an atomic drop, undertaker style. The when clasper tries to run in i‘ll give him a pile driver.  Booya finishing move!

army.ca is quickly turning into civi.ca


----------



## Spr.Earl

Now we are taking you back to our Topic.

I think from now on I‘ll use the old term of "5th Columnist‘s" that should keep the bleeding heart‘s happy.


----------



## Pieman

Infanteer,

Your ‘subtle‘ message was a very childish act. I would expect better from someone like you. Maybe you should think about how that makes you look. Maybe next time you could do something a little more mature as moderator and send me a private message and state your request to have it changed.

If people have problems with aviatars like the one I chose, then perhaps you should make some rules regarding aviatars. I chose the aviator from the list of ones availble in the default profiles, and I specifically did not pick one that was a rank or trade sign. 

In fact, I am really suprised that people cannot seem to figure out that a picture of a soldier with the word ‘civilian‘ under it means that i am actually a civilian...but since some people are a little slow, I am more than happy to change it.

Also, I am well aware of the sacrifices and contributions people on this forum have made and I do respect that. It is not a matter of me liking or disliking their opinions, however when the discussion degrades to childish name calling on their part then that is not really much of an opinion, is it?


----------



## Infanteer

Well, you obviously didn‘t read the first message.  Since you didn‘t your in the penalty box for a day or two.  Try reading it again.

As for your avatar, I think Slim was fairly clear on the matter.

Anyways, I‘m finished with you.  The complaint department thanks you for your participation.


----------



## Pieman

Infanteer, thanks for proving my point on abuse of power. I don‘t need to say any more on the matter.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Oh man quit bitching. We know, the whole world is against you.
Choose my avatar, im hot and girls will like you.


----------



## Infanteer

> I don‘t need to say any more on the matter.


Well, at least you figured it out.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Infanteer throws garbage at kittens.


----------



## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Pieman:
> [qb] Infanteer, thanks for proving my point on abuse of power. I don‘t need to say any more on the matter. [/qb]


Hey Doh Boy I suggest you keep stum.
Oh,please change your Avitar,it‘s taking up band  width.


----------



## bossi

For crying out loud ... can‘t I go out for supper ONCE in my freaking lifetime, and NOT have everything go to poop in my absence ... ??!!??!!

Okay - I‘m wearing my black and white striped referee sweater now (but can‘t use my whistle - it‘s after "lights out")

Takedown is awarded to Pieman for his point about abuse of power - please select another/new avatar (although I have to admit I, personally, was confused by a civilian using a picture of a soldier ... but, I digress ...)

Point awarded to Pointy End (but hopefully not pointy head) for his post about RCMP and ERT - however ... SERT wasn‘t sustainable, plus they wanted to pay Mounties overtime for being on standby ... thus, they cooked the goose that laid the golden egg, and the Canadian Army assumed responsibility for anti-terrorism ops in 1992 (and by the way, some people suggest the name JTF2 came about as a result of their predecessors being considered the first Joint Task Force ... but, again ... I digress ...)

Point to Ghost778 for showing more flesh in his/her avatar than I‘ve seen in ages (except for the shower tent ... brrr ... must ... use ... more ... cold ... water ...)

Point to Bruce for "Tartboy" moniker - LMAO!!

Yellow card to Infanteer for messing in Current Affairs when I wasn‘t looking ...

And, TWO points for Girl On Fire (chuckle) - for starting this thread, and for updating it with the RCMP news release, and ... oh, what the heck ... a THIRD point for having an better avatar than EVERYBODY!

All right - everybody back into their corners, and let‘s get this thread back on track ...
Ready?
Steady?
Post!


----------



## Jarnhamar

My tatoo brings all the girls to the yard..... and their life is better then yours       

tried to use my scarry me in the woods wearing cadpat one but it wouldnt work. Plus there was a big ARMY.CA across my face!

 point to Infanteer because he has a good soul


----------



## Spr.Earl

bossi the reason we could not hear your whistle,I stole your pea.


----------



## Infanteer

> point to Infanteer because he has a good soul


Oh s**t, I was laughing for a while with that one....


----------



## Slim

" Hello Debbie, we will make our beds and be good in exchange for your immortal soul."

Wednesday Adams

From "Adams Family Values"    :evil:    

Has anyone managed to get through to Pieman and convince him that the University of Calgary doesn‘t dictate national law enforcement policy yet?


----------



## bossi

Father of arrested Ottawa man detained in Saudi Arabia: family member
at 15:43 on March 31, 2004, EST.


OTTAWA (CP) - The father of a man arrested on terror charges in Ottawa has been detained in Saudi Arabia, says a family member. 

Mahboob Khawaja, 62, was recently taken into custody by Saudi authorities, his son Qasim Khawaja said Wednesday. "We don‘t know exactly what for, but he‘s being questioned over there," he said on the front lawn of the family home in Ottawa‘s east end. "This comes as a second shock to the family." 

Mohammad Momin Khawaja, 24, Qasim‘s brother, was charged Tuesday by the RCMP with terrorist offences related to activities in Ottawa and London. 

Mahboob Khawaja, an international affairs specialist, was a teacher and administrator at a college in Yanbu, Saudi Arabia. 

There was no immediate official confirmation of the detention, or any detail from authorities. 

Earlier in the day, a Foreign Affairs spokeswoman had no information about the father but was looking into the matter. 

Mohammad Momin Khawaja was charged Tuesday with two terrorism-related offences after police raids at his home and office. 

He was arrested Monday at his workplace and charged with participating in or contributing to the activities of a terrorist group and facilitating terrorist activity. The charges fall under Canada‘s anti-terrorism law. 

The Canadian-born Khawaja, a software developer, worked on contract for Foreign Affairs but not on any sensitive or secure projects, an official said. 

Qasim Khawaja said there was no evidence of terrorist activities in the home for police to find. 

It‘s the first time that someone has been charged under Canada‘s Anti-Terrorism Act. 

Mohammad Momin Khawaja appeared in court Tuesday and was remanded until a video appearance Friday. A publication ban was placed on the proceedings. 

Momin Khawaja‘s lawyer phoned the family and told them he is in an Ottawa jail, Qasim said. 

"He said he‘s in good condition right now. They put him in confinement or something. He‘s not allowed to see other people." 

The charges state that between Nov. 10, 2003, and Monday, Khawaja was involved in terrorist-related activity in Ottawa and "at or near the City of London, England," the RCMP said in the release. 

RCMP officers raided the family home in suburban Orleans on Monday, bashing in the door and searching the premises. 

Qasim Khawaja was in the home when RCMP officers arrived. 

"I was just watching TV and the door just blew open and guys with guns and masks just told us to get down," he said. 

"Me and my sister were at home and they tie-wrapped us up." 

Mahboob Khawaja is the author of Muslims and the West, a book about Islamic fundamentalism that analyses global conflicts within the framework of Muslim civilization. 

He has also written several other essays critical of American foreign policy, "corrupt Arab leadership," "American-Zionist political encroachment in the Middle East," and the West‘s response to terrorism and the war on terror. 

He earned his post-graduate degrees at Syracuse University, in New York State.


----------



## buglog1

*chuckles*

I have been called a lot things...and some of those things made reference to my head...thick-skull, pig-headed etc...but not pointy-headed...or -haired...hehe


----------



## buglog1

...one other thing...usually it is my wife calling me those things.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Wow i almost feel bad for this family for having to endure such police harassment.


----------



## Slim

If they didn‘t do anything wrong then they won‘t have anything to worry about.


----------



## Slim

Pour-Vous Pieman


----------



## Infanteer

Exactly.  I can‘t understand why a law-abiding citizen would have any concern over increased police powers in times of war and emergency (ie: now).


----------



## Pieman

> I can‘t understand why a law-abiding citizen would have any concern over increased police powers in times of war and emergency (ie: now).


Power, is all too often abused or corrupted. As was clearly demonstrated by one of the moderators here the other day.

This is a war that seems to have no face and no terriory, and no end in sight. I think that many law-abiding cizitens are becoming concerned. Where does this new power being and where does it end? How much is too little, and how much is too much?


----------



## Slim

You and your buddies will be a lot more concerned when the baddies start blowing things up in Canada and people like you get a thank you card from AQ because you basically ham-strung the police, military and intelligence services with your stupid whining.

You think police abuse their powers here? Try going to some of the places in the middle east where the state is Muslim, check the rules out there bud!

Or better yet just go and don‘t come back. Because if you think Canadian police are bad you don‘t get around much!

I have zero sympathy for you. If your friends are law abiding citizens then they have nothing to worry about.Usually its the people who are doing something wrong that whine about the cops the loudest!

Slim
Ex-Canadian Army Intelligence


----------



## Pieman

> You think police abuse their powers here? Try going to some of the places in the middle east where the state is Muslim, check the rules out there bud!


No, I don‘t think police abuse their powers here. Not yet anyway. I am concerned that with these increased powers, Canada will end up like one of those countries in the middle east given enough time. Give the government and inch, and they will take a mile.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Well if that inch saves just one Canadian life than go to it.  If they wish to "tap my phone,go through my garbage, follow me to my place of worship, etc." then thats a very small price to pay when compared to what some have lost.
Tartboy, you really need to put your well-being on the line before you can make the statements you do.


----------



## Pieman

> you really need to put your well-being on the line before you can make the statements you do.


Well, I am not sure I understand that. But maybe you are correct. Please explain to my why I need to put my well being on the line, before I am allowed to question the actions of the government. 

The police and the soliders execute government policy, they do not write them. So if you are getting the impression that I am attacking and questioning the police and soldiers themselves, I am not. I am questioning the people who write the policies they are executing.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I‘ll explain,it‘s called perspective.Most of the people on this board earned thiers, they were‘nt handed it by someone. As it stands right now your perspective is the one you‘ve been handed.
Stop school, join up now and try a "peace-keeping" mission and then come back and argue.


----------



## elscotto937

Well said, Bruce...


----------



## Pieman

> Stop school, join up now and try a "peace-keeping" mission and then come back and argue.


Ok Bruce, I will take you up on that.

However, I will say this: My * unique * education has given me a perspective that few people get to see or understand. The opportunity to achieve that perspective may have been handed to me, but I worked my *** off to achieve it.

This perspective is no less valuable than yours, so believe me, I have * earned * the right to have my own opinion.

When I combine my current perspective with your ‘new‘ perspective, you still may not like what I have to say. So, just to forewarn you, don‘t get all upset and whine when I say things you don‘t like.

But until I am standing in BMQ, *I will still exercise my civil right to argue and question the government!*


----------



## Slim

> Originally posted by Bruce Monkhouse:
> [qb] I‘ll explain,it‘s called perspective.Most of the people on this board earned thiers, they were‘nt handed it by someone. As it stands right now your perspective is the one you‘ve been handed.
> Stop school, join up now and try a "peace-keeping" mission and then come back and argue. [/qb]


Well said Brother, well said.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Pieman what exactly is your unique education?


----------



## Pieman

With all due respect, that is not any of your business. I am also not interested in saying for privacy issues. 

However if you send me a private message and ask, I may consider telling you.


----------



## Farmboy

> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I can‘t understand why a law-abiding citizen would have any concern over increased police powers in times of war and emergency (ie: now).
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Power, is all too often abused or corrupted. As was clearly demonstrated by one of the moderators here the other day.


BINGO!

 Why should law abiding citizens be concered?

 Let‘s see...  I own more than 10 guns but even though I am a law abiding citizen the police can legally walk into my house at any time without a warrent under the new firearms laws.

 A friend I grew up with was taken into custody, strip searched and denied access to his family, he is a law abiding citizen who was out gopher hunting legally and a "concerned citizen" called police.

 It‘s all fine and dandy if your not the one it‘s happening to.

 It‘s also a very hard line to draw when you want to prevent a crime from happening. Somtimes doing somthing, is going to far, and other times it is not enough.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Hey pieman, tell me if this sounds familiar.

"I am unware of one single case of that happening in Canada. IF you cannot show me, please do not make things up to support your claim."

You say you have a uniuque education. (Unique meaning one of a kind?). Thats fine i respect where your comming from regarding privacy issues but don‘t bring it up on the forum then. Unless your ready to back it up or tell people what it is no one is going to give it the slighest thought.

I think that moderator was doing you a favor and telling you to slow down, the same way you give a child a time out.
Before slapping them of course     

You have the right to an opinion of course but think a little. Your comming to a military  forum talking to soldiers who‘ve spent their lives defending canadian interests, even if they dont always agree with it. I wouldn‘t be surprised if some of these guys have served longer than you‘ve been alive. If you have such a beef with the goverment t don‘t join man. Once you do you won‘t be in a real position to do anything about it. If you want to fight the government become a politician.


----------



## xFusilier

I can tell you I‘ve been to societies which can be defined as "free" and I have been to societies that can be defined as "safe".  There are no "free", "safe" societies.  Having lived in Syria, I would define Syria as a very safe place in terms of law and order issues, wouldn‘t call it a very free place though.

As for the logic that those that aren‘t doing anything wrong have nothing to fear.  I‘m sorry but people like Donald Marshall, Guy-Paul Morin and Stephen Truscott have shot that arguement to heck.

The reason law abiding citezens have concerns over increased police powers is for the simple fact that yes, the police do get it wrong, and yes the police have abused their authority, and yes the police even break the law from time to time.  So when I hear the argument "We‘re the police trust us" I tend to get skeptical really quick

As far as I can see the police already have enough powers to do their job, perhaps it takes more time to get a warrant, to illustrate RPG‘s to a judge but those steps exist to protect you and me.  Besides the police can tap your phone, raid your garbage and follow you around, they simply have to obtain a warrant in the first to instances to do it. Anyhow from what I read in the article the police acted within the letter of the law, so why are we debating extraordinary police powers anyways?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Pieman,
You are throwing us a swerve here.[studying law, by chance?]  You have the right to question the govt. all you want. Many of us here have done and will continue to do so. That is one of the many number of great things about this country of ours.
What brought you to the ire of so many of us was the ridiculous accusations that you were making, not your govt. stance.
Lets go back on topic as far as your concerned. I don‘t know Slim, but many people on here do, and  no one has ever questioned that he is what he says he is. Were as you have beaten that several times just in this thread, so here‘s a proposal, you stated you could‘nt prove these accusations on an open forum, so send Slim a PM and make arrangements to prove these things to him. He then could come here and confirm for us that you are not full of it. If you wish to have any credibility here this sounds like a simple way to get it.
Slim, I hope you don‘t mind me volunteering you but you are the guy.  Thanks Bruce


----------



## Pieman

Very well Ghost, 

I will do my best to be able to back myself up from now on.

However, I don‘t agree with you with regards to the moderator.

(Unique = only 7 in the world. 2 more may graduate this May, if they are lucky)


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Farmboy
The ten guns you own, are they all registered? If not than your not a law-abiding citizen. I don‘t want to get into the gun law registry cause yes they screwed it up horribly. But I register my dogs, cats, kids, cars,etc. Just something to think about, my mechanic can sieze my car if he deems it unsafe but your guns don‘t need to meet this criteria?
Xfusilier, 
The people you refered to probably would‘nt have been convicted [a] if the police had more freedom
*had the tests we have today
[c]were‘nt shafted by racial mindsets
[d]small-town cops had the resources they can get today
Therefore those names ,for the most part, don"t go with todays police style.*


----------



## xFusilier

Bruce what you said may be true.  But I‘ll stick with the age old rule, the police suspect you of something, shut up and get a lawyer.

Besides with a tag line like corrections, its not like you‘re going to be arguing for the scrotes is it.


----------



## Pieman

> you stated you could‘nt prove these accusations on an open forum


No Bruce, I stated that I could not prove these things on a forum, not just an open forum. It is a logistical thing. How can I show to you a tap on a phone over a computer? Private or open forum.

If you have some idea on how to do that, then we can talk about it.

Like I stated for that particular point, I cannot support it any futher. However, make note that I made many other points which seemed to be unpopular here. 

A Lawyer!? God no! Scientist all the way!    



> The people you refered to probably would‘nt have been convicted
> 
> [a] if the police had more freedom


Ok, I am a little suprised you said that. On my side of the argument, I am saying that the new powers issued to police are potentially dangerous because of the potential for the abuse of power. 

Now, you are saying the police need a lot more powers to prevent abuse from happening in the first place? Am I correct in that interpritation? What is the logic here? If you make it legel for police to torture people, then it is not an abuse of power when they do?

The other points you made there seem fair enough in my opinion. It is pretty easy to see how those would be a problem for law enforcement.


----------



## Pieman

> Your comming to a military forum talking to soldiers who‘ve spent their lives defending canadian interests, even if they dont always agree with it. I wouldn‘t be surprised if some of these guys have served longer than you‘ve been alive. If you have such a beef with the goverment t don‘t join man. Once you do you won‘t be in a real position to do anything about it. If you want to fight the government become a politician.


Actually, don‘t get me wrong. I don‘t have such a beef with the government. As I said before, I am very concerned about the changes in laws that have been happening since 9/11, and these recent raids and spying on civilians is a sparking my concern.

I have travelled a lot around the world, and I do believe in this country and it‘s people, more than ever!

I am on this forum for two reasons: 
First, I want to do my part and serve my country. So I have signed up. 

Second, I am trying very hard to understand the mentality of the soldier. I am trying to understand how you guys think. So far, I have discovered that most of you are very defensive about things (like the government) but if you push hard enough, your real thoughts start to come out.

BTW, that last post was nice Ghost. I hope you do more like that.


----------



## Farmboy

> Farmboy
> The ten guns you own, are they all registered? If not than your not a law-abiding citizen


Yes, unfortunately they are registered, but think of how many "crimminals" there are now just by instituting a new law, on law abiding Canadians.



> But I register my dogs, cats, kids, cars,etc.


1. Ask they jews how they felt about being registered.

2. Your dog can act alone, my gun cannot get up and shoot someone by itself. My gun is locked in a safe, is your dog?

3. Just because you are registering these things does not mean it‘s ok or right.



> my mechanic can sieze my car if he deems it unsafe


The police can seize my guns if I do some thing unsafe, they don‘t need to be registered for this to happen.



> but your guns don‘t need to meet this criteria?


I myself have met the criteria by getting a firearms licence, why do my guns have to?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Well everyone of those arguements was absolutley stupid. Though at least the dog analogy was‘nt too bad. But lets see here, we should‘nt bother getting get drivers licences, should‘nt bother with stupid things like birth cert. ,passports.. and the Jewish thing...man that was a  severely stupid comparison, not to mention insulting to a lot of people...
Good thing you have a nice soul.... CHEERS


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Pieman.....????????
If I can understand that garbulated answer, I said the police need more freedom to conduct investigations, how did torture come into this? You definetly are a master at swerving things away from yourself. 
I‘m just wondering why you won‘t take Slim up on the offer I made[without his consent,nice]. Surely you can explain things like what the ‘tap‘ looks like,the software clicking noise, etc.... 
OK I‘ve been up all night I‘m going to bed.  :boring:


----------



## Farmboy

> Well everyone of those arguements was absolutley stupid


That‘s a great way to have a discussion! I find people say stuff like that or scream racist ect. when they have no argument in their favour.



> and the Jewish thing...man that was a severely stupid comparison, not to mention insulting to a lot of people...


WHAT!  The nazis first registered and took away their guns and then did the same to the people.

 And don‘t say it can‘t happen here, do you think they thought it could happen to them?


----------



## Pieman

Bruce,

I was using torture as an illustrative example. You said the police need more freedom to do their job, how much freedom do you mean? Torture has been proven to be a great way to extract information from someone. Why not use that?

If you reread my post, you will see that I am willing to take your offer up on ‘proving‘ the wire tap to slim. But I still do not think it is possible for me to do that by writing. Since I am a ‘Master at swerving things away from myself‘ then how can you be sure I will not trick slim with my fancy talk?   

However, if slim feels there is a way to *prove* there is a tap on the line that can be conveyed via private message, then let us try it.

I think I have said everything I had to say with regards to this thread. I seem to be repeating the same points over and over. So unless someone wants me to comment further with regards to this topic, I will end my part of the discussion here.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Thanks pieman, you have a good soul too.  
I kinda think your in a cult by the sounds of it though   Only half a dozen people graduated int he world, and you call your self a scientist eh? hummmmmm    

To even begin to understand how soldiers think you gotta be one, no ways around it really. Atleast if your keen on joining up so good luck


I like that dog analogy myself, lots of people being attacked by dogs lately.

I have a dozen guns and i will not register them.

a. I‘m not giving computer smart criminals a shopping list
b. All the top guys in law enforcement have said the registry system will not work.
c. Government has already wasted 2 billion dollars, i pay taxes why should i give them even more money to waste. Another salary raise int he parliment?
d. Criminals won‘t register their guns.


----------



## Infanteer

> As was clearly demonstrated by one of the moderators here the other day.


Keep it up, Pieboy.  The bus is leaving.



> As for the logic that those that aren‘t doing anything wrong have nothing to fear. I‘m sorry but people like Donald Marshall, Guy-Paul Morin and Stephen Truscott have shot that arguement to heck.


Those are exceptions to the rule.  How many murderers and rapists have been put away in the same time?
People constantly cite examples of systems where abuse of authority is the norm.  That is not the case in Canada, and if you feel so, I challenge you to prove it.

I have full confidence in the system of policing in Canada.  Look at the FLQ crisis, did we slide into a police-state after that (Although with Trudeau, some would wish we did).

Overseas, we conducted many missions that were completely invasive of the average Bosnians privacy.  Most soldiers were uneasy with doing this (I can remember what I felt going through some ladies clothing drawers as she watched on)  Quit trying to portray police as a salivating dog, just waiting to be unleashed at your rights and freedoms (which they uphold anyways).



> WHAT! The nazis first registered and took away their guns and then did the same to the people.
> And don‘t say it can‘t happen here, do you think they thought it could happen to them?


Sure, if a government that openly preached anti-semitism was elected in Canada.  I‘m open to "what-ifs", but trust me, thats WAY down my list.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Pieman the only thing unique about you is your full of crap...you make a claim like that you should back it up!

Oh wait these forums have quite a few people that are full of it so I guess there is nothing special about you after all!


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## xFusilier

Donald Marshall, Guy Paul Morin and Steven Truscott go to prove the fact that miscarrigages of justice do happen.  I have not portrayed the police as salivating dogs, they are, in fact, necessary to the maintenance of the rule of law.  Nor, did I state that abuse of authority is rampant.  That being said anyone who does not believe that some individual police officers do overstep the bounds of their authority, or break the law is living in a dream world.

What I am saying is that there is a balance to be struck between the obligation of the state to protect its citizens and maintain social order and the need to protect the rights of citizens.  I believe that balance has been struck quite well. What the cases I quoted serve to demonstrate is the fallacy of a blanket statement that those who are not breaking the law have nothing to fear from increased police powers.

Certainly we did not slide into a police state after the invocation of the War Measures Act in 1970.  I‘m sure if you look you will find instances were extrodinary powers were used by the police in 1970 to deal with situations that had nothing to do with the FLQ.  In fact the War Measures Act was repealed and replaced with the Emergancies Act to specifically limit the extraordinary powers that were given to the authorities in an emergancy.

There is also a very clear distinction to be made between an environment such as post-war Bosnia and Canada.  What I am saying is that the reasonable restrictions on police powers exist for a reason, they protect your, and my liberties.  I have yet to see anyone post in regards to what tools they believe the police are lacking in regards to the tools they have to do their job.


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## devil39

> Originally posted by Ghost778:
> [qb]
> 
> I have a dozen guns and i will not register them.
> 
> a. I‘m not giving computer smart criminals a shopping list
> b. All the top guys in law enforcement have said the registry system will not work.
> c. Government has already wasted 2 billion dollars, i pay taxes why should i give them even more money to waste. Another salary raise int he parliment?
> d. Criminals won‘t register their guns. [/qb]


Ghost,

Likely not something you want to advertise.

I register because we, as soldiers, are in a position of trust in this country.  I am assuming that you are indeed a soldier.  

If you cannot be trusted to follow the laws of the land, what other ethics, values, duties and criminal code issues will you choose to apply or accept, only as  *you*  see fit?  We are not talking about the occasional speeding ticket here, but knowingly disregarding and violating federal law.  

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the law, one has to consider the refusal to obey this law as a discipline, duty and ethical conduct issue. 

Sorry to go so far OT but I think the point needed addressing.


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## Jarnhamar

Your 100% right.  I can‘t  think of a good argument. You honestly gave me something to think about.

Unfortinuatly everytime i hear about people registering their guns i think of the toronto police department holding a gun amnisty (sp?) asking people to turn in their old and unwanted firarms so that they may be destroyed, to make the streets safer. The police department turned around and were caught selling them back to the public then said something like "Well we are selling them back to the public so we can have more money to better do our job and serve the public"


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## scm77

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/02/canada/khawaja040402 

RCMP Confirm link between London and Ottawa Arrests.

OTTAWA - The RCMP has confirmed that the arrest of Mohammad Momin Khawaja on terror charges is linked to the detention of nine British Muslims. 

INDEPTH: Canadian security

The group of nine men were arrested in an alleged bomb plot in the United Kingdom . 

It‘s the first time that authorities have officially linked Mohammad Momin Khawaja,24, to the London arrests, which came about 12 hours after the Khawaja family home in Ottawa was raided by the RCMP. 

The RCMP say that because of ban on publication of the details of Khawaja‘s case they can give no more details. 

Khawaja‘s lawyer, Steven Greenberg, is reluctant to discuss the evidence against his client. But he did acknowledge the prosecution has shown him documents that clearly claim Mohammad Momin Khawaja is linked to the British men of Pakistani origin, arrested this week in London. The documents also refer to a half ton of ammonium nitrate, a fertilizer that can be used to make explosives, found in a London storage depot. 

But Greenberg said the evidence is sketchy and incomplete. "I haven‘t seen anything that would support a charge, lets put it that way," he said. 

Greenberg also complained that Khawaja has been denied proper access to legal help. He says police "continued questioning him, although he expressed his wish to have a lawyer present." 

Qasim Khawaja, 26, was able to see his brother for the first time on Friday. He says his brother is held in solitary confinement and has little information about what is happening on the outside. 

"He just said that he was bored and he had nothing to do except look at the walls. He‘s not frightened at all, he just hoped to come out of it pretty soon." 

During a brief court appearance by videolink, Mohammad Momin Khawaja‘s bail hearing was set for next Wednesday. His lawyer says in spite of the seriousness of the charges, he expects his client to be granted bail. 

Written by CBC News Online staff


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## Spr.Earl

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the law, one has to consider the refusal to obey this law as a discipline, duty and ethical conduct issue."

Devil39,that argument has been made by many to support unethical,illegal laws through out history.

We as Canadians know the present Gun Registry is a farce and a waste of money and we all know it.

Here in Vancouver the crimes with small arms has risen so much since the new Laws its unreal.
Yet those committing the shootings are not law abiding citizens but cultural minorities shooting it out in the clubs and restaurants for control of the dope scene here in the lower mainland but our P.C. press wont publicise this fact or what races are doing it,only names after the fact!!

The $1 billion plus would have been better spent on fighting these arseholes!!   

I‘m getting to the point to go and buy my self a small arm and see if I can get carrying permit just for those trips at night into Vancouver.
Thats how bad it is here.

Remeber the Snow Boarder that was shot infront of a Club,helping some one who was shot at the same time?   

Our Laws suck!!


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## devil39

Ghost,

I agree there are problems.  I just do not believe we should compound the issue by failing the position of trust that we hold in society.


Spr Earl,

This is not an "unethical, illegal law".  It may however be a poorly thought out law, a poorly implemented law, and perhaps one sold to the public under questionable pretences.

I too would rather the money was spent elsewhere, perhaps on enforcement vice registration.

That being said, I cannot find it within myself to care enough to quit the military as a result of the incontrovertible and irreconcilable moral and ethical quandry I would be placing myself in by not registering.


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## elscotto937

Before we set up a gun registry we should have conducted an OP HARVEST in metro Toronto. But at the very least the registry created some jobs in NB.


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## 1feral1

Here‘s one for ya‘s

The NSW govt will be adding new japanese swords and similar swords, and machetes to its list of banned weapons.

Collectors of real WW2 swords etc, will have to apply for a permit to possess them, as for the machetes, I gues we‘ll have to clear the bush with something else.

All this brought by with cultural minorities using them in crime.

What next? The Bic pen and flat head screw drivers?

Honestly, the next thing to go will be privatly owned bayonets, and combat kives etc.

What a waste of taxpayers money!

cheers,

Wes


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## Jarnhamar

When will they make it tougher to get a drivers licence or make the punishment for drinking and driving more harsh?

I have a feeling more people die from drinking accidents then sword attacks.

In my home town one group of individuals were caught, repeatedly, bringing machettes to highschool squaring off in little gang fights. The last time i can remember it happening no punishments were handed out because they were ‘just adjusting to a different lifestyle‘.


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## K. Ash

What the **** kind of lifestyle were they used to bringing machettes to Highschool?


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## Kirkhill

A buddy of mine who is a teacher who used to be a Reservist has had similar problems.

There have been students at schools where he has taught show up with guns, machetes and baseball bats.  Makes it difficult to decide when to intervene I guess.

However this teacher‘s impulse has been to get involved and try to shut down altercations before they become major incidents.  From what I can gather he doesn‘t get a lot of backup from teachers or administration.  Suggestions of racism seem to be often brought up.

I didn‘t know that trying to stop a gang-fight in a schoolyard was a racist act.


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## girlfiredup

*Eavesdropping by U.S. agency led to arrests of terrorist suspects* 

10:12 PM EDT Apr 04 

The Canadian Press, 2004

LONDON (CP) - The arrests of nine terrorist suspects in Britain and one in Canada last week began with a message intercepted by the National Security Agency in the United States that appeared to give instructions for an attack in the United Kingdom by al-Qaida commanders in Pakistan, The Sunday Times reports. 

The newspaper says the message was received by computers at the NSA‘s electronic eavesdropping centre in Maryland, which monitors millions of telephone calls and e-mails a day. 

Police in Britain were alerted of the threat after the NSA analysed the automatic translation of the communication that The Sunday Times said was "thought to be between Britain and Pakistan." 

Once alerted, senior British police and intelligence officers, including David Veness, head of special operations at Scotland Yard, and Eliza Manningham-Buller, director general of MI5, set up Operation Crevice, the code name for the international anti-terrorist sweep. 

Meanwhile in Canada, the RCMP arrested Momin Khawaja, 24, a software developer in Ottawa, in an investigation they have dubbed Project Awaken. He is the first Canadian charged under the Anti-Terrorism Act and faces two counts for unspecified offences between Nov. 10, 2003 and last Monday. 

Published reports say the RCMP had Khawaja under surveillance for more than a month at the request of British police. During a recent visit to Britain he was shadowed by British undercover police. 

Investigators claim he had a "pivotal role" in the alleged plot, as well as links to Saudi Arabian extremists, The Sunday Times said. 

But Khawaja‘s lawyer, Steven Greenberg, said Friday there has been "no link established at this time" between the case and allegations of the London bomb plot. Khawaja is slated for a bail hearing Wednesday and will plead not guilty, Greenberg added. 

The Mounties have said legal and operational limitations prevent them from releasing more information on the case. 

Detectives from the National Crime Squad in Britain were redeployed from dealing with organized crime to keep surveillance on the suspects in Britain and the operation led to the seizure last week of a half a tonne of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, a chemical used to make home-made terrorist bombs, in a storage garage near London‘s Heathrow Airport. 

The newspaper said the original tip, picked up by NSA satellites, was given high priority because it appeared to be instructions for an attack passing between Al-Qaida commanders in Pakistan and associates in Britain. 

The sender was apparently in the circle around Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, believed to be the mastermind of attacks in Baghdad and Karbala last month in Iraq that killed 280 people during a Muslim religious festival. 

The link to Pakistan is also seen as significant because it disproves a view that al-Qaida‘s command structure had been broken up and scattered by the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan and arrests made around the world in the last 2 ½ years of the war on terror, The Sunday Times said. 

"We all thought there were cells operating in isolation and had been told that the al-Qaida network had been destroyed from the top when suddenly we find a chain of command leading back to Pakistan," a senior Scotland Yard source is quoted as saying.


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## Infanteer

> What I am saying is that there is a balance to be struck between the obligation of the state to protect its citizens and maintain social order and the need to protect the rights of citizens. I believe that balance has been struck quite well. What the cases I quoted serve to demonstrate is the fallacy of a blanket statement that those who are not breaking the law have nothing to fear from increased police powers.


What value do those rights have if you live under constant fear that you are going to be killed the next day at work by a suicide bomber, release of a nerve-agent, or a hijacked airliner.  The fact that we are rooting these guys out says something for increased security powers in a time of war.



> There is also a very clear distinction to be made between an environment such as post-war Bosnia and Canada. What I am saying is that the reasonable restrictions on police powers exist for a reason, they protect your, and my liberties. I have yet to see anyone post in regards to what tools they believe the police are lacking in regards to the tools they have to do their job.


I am not trying to advocate any specific policy.  My response is aimed to those who suffer from immediate knee-jerk reaction that occurs whenever the police are given special powers or undertake a major crackdown.

I do know this.  This discussion would be irrelevant had Mr Khawaja toppled the CN tower with a truck bomb.


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## xFusilier

> What value do those rights have if you live under constant fear that you are going to be killed the next day at work by a suicide bomber, release of a nerve-agent, or a hijacked airliner.


The fear of terrorist attack is the price we now must pay for the liberties that we have.  If we are not willing to endure the possible threat of terrorist attack in order to live in the type of society which those who would bomb, and murder, and hijack despise what value do those liberties have?



> My response is aimed to those who suffer from immediate knee-jerk reaction that occurs whenever the police are given special powers


To be fair, could one not also argue that  immediate knee-jerk reaction to terrorist attacks, is to give the police extraordinary powers without consideration of whether or not they are needed?



> I do know this. This discussion would be irrelevant had Mr Khawaja toppled the CN tower with a truck bomb.


It would probably be more relevant.


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## rdschultz

I just want to make a post regarding CSIS and the supposed "clicks on the line".  This is purely anecdotal evidence, so I trust that everybody will take it at face value.

A couple years ago, while I was attending university, my mother worked for a doctor.  One night, I phoned my mother and I made a remark to hearing a number of odd clicks.  At the time, I chalked it up to lousy cell phone towers (which it may well have been).  But then I found out some rather troubling information a short while later.

As it turned out, the doctor had been investigated by CSIS on account of signing a bunch of blank passports (doctors and other professionals are capable of this).  Or so the rumour goes.  Shortly before the phone call I made, he had shut his practice down in a hurry, and skipped town.  In addition to this, there‘s other evidence to support that there was a wiretap in place.  My mother, in the days following the shut down had been called in to fill in for another doctors practice in an emergency.  While working there (she had informed no one, and it was only hours after she was called in) she recieved a call from the RCMP asking about the doctors whereabouts.

Honestly, I have no idea if my telephone call had been bugged, nor would I understand why.  And all the ‘evidence‘ I‘ve got to support that it was is sketchy at best, and is easily attributable to other things.  But honestly, I don‘t care. 

But anyways, this doesn‘t lend much to the argument at hand, I‘m just incredibly bored right now so I thought I‘d add my experience with this "clicking sound".  I also disclosed far more details than I needed to, but like I said, I‘m bored.


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