# White Supremacist Infiltration of Canadian Forces?



## m2austin (19 Jun 2012)

In the past 24 hrs, there has been talk in the media that U.S. white supremacist groups may be infiltrating the Canadian Forces with Canada's CF National Counter-Intelligence Unit being made aware of the situation last year.

A quick search of the keywords will provide some articles.

Threat or media sensationalism?


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## dogger1936 (19 Jun 2012)

Source?


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## Edward Campbell (19 Jun 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Source?



Today's Ottawa Citizen, print and online - but site rules prevent me from quoting the article.


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## Old Sweat (19 Jun 2012)

There was a long front page above-the-fold story in the Ottawa Citizen this morning to that effect. A shorter version appeared in the middle pages of the first section of the National Post. Ditto for site rules.


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## m2austin (19 Jun 2012)

_Mod edited to remove link, taking an "if in doubt, pull it out" approach to sharing links, even indirectly, contrary to site policy._

*Milnet.ca Staff*


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## OldSolduer (19 Jun 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Today's Ottawa Citizen, print and online - but site rules prevent me from quoting the article.



FYI in the early 90s, there were similar reports of bikers and neo Nazis in the CF. 

In at least one unit there was a neo Nazi.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2012)

M2A said:
			
		

> .... Threat or media sensationalism?


I haven't seen any indication of anyone sharing any copies of the NCIU briefings leading to such stories.  Until I see such documents for context and a bit more detail, I'm only going to say that if we believe the makeup of the CF reflects that of Canadian society, we shouldn't be surprised at similar populations being vulnerable to similar recruitment.  

I'm also not surprised that media might pay more attention to this than with other populations because, like it or not, the CF (like cops) will be held to a higher standard than civilians about such things because of how they have to represent and protect ALL of society while doing their jobs.

I'm also guessing that the CF also has a pretty hard position on racist and/or criminal behaviour while one is subject to the NDA.

So "threat"?  Yes.  Any more than the rest of Canadians?  No.  Are there mechanisms to deal with racist/criminal behaviour should it occur?  Yes.


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## George Wallace (19 Jun 2012)

Ah!  xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mod edited to remove commentary)

Anyway.  Sounds like a "Slow News Day".  That is not new news, as this has been a topic over the last two decades; or longer.  We have had incidents in the news in the past with the Canadian Airborne Regiment hanging Confederate Flags in their Quarters and unit lines.  We have had incidents of CF members having "White Supremacist" tatoos attracting media attention.  This is something that will rear its head from time to time and often has no relevance other than to fill space in some publication that has nothing else to report.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Jun 2012)

Hang on,.....I'll read it after I get my slippers.........


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## Jarnhamar (19 Jun 2012)

Edit: Nevermind, I understand the policy is geared towards one person.

I read in an article off that link that this issue has been an issue (my words) with the CF over the years. I'm not so sure the right word is being used.

There's that psychopath in 1997, a 17 year old kid in 2011, 6 guys in 2006.
Considering how many thousands of members we have in the CF, that's not striking me as a huge issue.

Out of everywhere I've been to in Canada and the world, the least amount of racisim I've ever seen has been in the CF.


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## Scott (19 Jun 2012)

Read the link mildews.ca mil*news*.ca provided.

Nuff said

Edited to fix brain fart


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## Maxadia (19 Jun 2012)

As with anything else, the CF is not the ONLY place for the undesirable parts of society to hang out.  There's white supremacists sitting, as students, in classrooms right now across the country.....operating your local grocery store, bank....sitting on city council, etc.  Stating that they take a special interest in the CF is like saying that people who steal money takle a special interest in being accountants.  

There's undesirables everwhere.  Fact of life.  Unless evidence shows that there's something more afoot, like mentioned above.....slow news day.


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## Nemo888 (19 Jun 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ag4nkSh7Q

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Why can't we embed video anymore?


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## OldSolduer (19 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Out of everywhere I've been to in Canada and the world, the least amount of racisim I've ever seen has been in the CF.



Agreed, however as has been mentioned by people far wiser than I, the public support for the CF is a mile wide and an inch deep.

We cannot afford to have such people in our midst, or even the perception that we are an organization that harbours these people.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Agreed, however as has been mentioned by people far wiser than I, the public support for the CF is a mile wide and an inch deep.
> 
> *We cannot afford to have such people in our midst, or even the perception that we are an organization that harbours these people.*


:goodpost:


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## LineJumper (19 Jun 2012)

Race, religion, favorite cookie, there will always be believers.


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## jollyjacktar (19 Jun 2012)

I have no doubt that there may be some members of the CF who have undesirable belief systems running rampant in their heads as we are a cross section of Cdn society at large.  Every barrel has a few rotten apples present from time to time.  And I also have no doubt that whenever such a rotten apple is discovered in the barrel it is removed and disposed of properly.  The CF while not perfect goes out of it's way as an organization to ensure to the best of it's ability that it holds itself to a higher standard of conduct than most.  So systemically?  No, I don't buy it for a millisecond.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (19 Jun 2012)

Should have gotten those journalists out on the water with us the last year we operated Gate Vessels.

With a crew of 35 from HMCS DONNACONA, we covered 17 different nationalities, 14 different languages, four skin colours (oops, make that three: Frank is just a white man with one hell of a tan) and at least two genders  .

My "Pakistani-catholic" first officer had no problems dealing with our "Indian-hindu" chief engineer, who was getting along fine with his Polish acting-CERA , who was herself having no difficulty with her Italian trainee B ticket. And so forth down the line.

Those are the stories we need to get out  .


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## OldSolduer (19 Jun 2012)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Should have gotten those journalists out on the water with us the last year we operated Gate Vessels.
> 
> With a crew of 35 from HMCS DONNACONA, we covered 17 different nationalities, 14 different languages, four skin colours (oops, make that three: Frank is just a white man with one hell of a tan) and at least two genders  .
> 
> ...



Bottom line is that we are all Canadians.


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## dogger1936 (19 Jun 2012)

I dunno how the heck someone can be in the military and be racist. I like fire team partners regardless of their colour...as long as they can shoot.

I actually seen the most racist things coming out of NDHQ with stupid things like "Asian" month and my favorite aboriginal month. I had comedy with my best friend for a month...."Do you want my dessert ration as it is aboriginal month" "in keeping with aboriginal month I suggest Person X complete the tasking to show pride in his history". 30ish days of grilling.

No one in my combat unit gave a rats ass about race. Aside from tastefully placed jokes among friends the only thing we heard about race was out of NDHQ.


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## Greymatters (21 Jun 2012)

Going back to the late 1980's here, I served with several soldiers from whom you never heard any comments in regard to other soldiers in the battalion who were 'visible minorities'.  

But travel down to the States on exercise and let these same soldiers get a skinful inside of them at the local bar, and you found out very quickly who was bigoted and who was not.  

Like previous postings say, bigots are everywhere not just the CF, but my point is you arent going to find out who they are in offices or on the parade ground.  Most of them are smart enough to keep their opinions to themself while in uniform and on duty.


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## RangerRay (21 Jun 2012)

It shouldn't be that surprising that the CF would appeal to those who follow a militarist and nationalist ideology.  If they grow their hair out, cover their tattoos, keep their opinions to themselves, and there is no record of their activities, how are recruiters to weed them out?

I'm not sure if the CF can do any more than they do to keep extremists out.  These types will probably find it hard to work in the CF when they have to work cooperatively with "others" to get their work done.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Jun 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I actually seen the most racist things coming out of NDHQ with stupid things like "Asian" month and my favorite aboriginal month.


 :nod:


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## Sythen (27 Jun 2012)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> It shouldn't be that surprising that the CF would appeal to those who follow a militarist and nationalist ideology.  If they grow their hair out, cover their tattoos, keep their opinions to themselves, and there is no record of their activities, how are recruiters to weed them out?
> 
> I'm not sure if the CF can do any more than they do to keep extremists out.  These types will probably find it hard to work in the CF when they have to work cooperatively with "others" to get their work done.



If they do their job, keep their mouth shut and don't bring attention on themselves in public then why *should* they be weeded out? I know this won't make me popular in saying, and I don't feel it necessary to claim I have a bunch of "minority" friends to show how non-racist I am, but if they're competent people who don't express their opinions in public, why should they be removed? Should we start removing all Christians because they believe that non-Christians will burn in hell? I worked with many people I hated, and did so professionally and without complaining (in public that is).. Someone's opinions, regardless of how we might see them, should have no bearing on someone's employment. If they start spouting off racist catch phrases and treating non-whites differently, then it becomes a problem.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Jun 2012)

That's insightful Sythen. Fair points.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Jun 2012)

That's exactly what I tell people about the workplace,....you can hate whomever you want for whatever reason you want too, and it's nobodies business, but the moment you treat those people different because of it, then there's a problem.


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## Scott (28 Jun 2012)

Great post, Sythen.

I would say that I have seen much more racist behaviour outside of the CF than I have in it or associated with it. The issue is always going to be optics and how the CF are perceived (and how easy it is for media to make this a story when it's the CF vice a chemical cleaning company or whatever)

A couple of years ago a newly minted teacher was overheard making racist remarks. She was suspended and had to undergo sensitivity training but the wrod about it stopped right there. No naming and shaming, no huge articles. If that had been a CF member I think it would have been a five page spread in MacLean's.


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## Redeye (28 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> If they do their job, keep their mouth shut and don't bring attention on themselves in public then why *should* they be weeded out? I know this won't make me popular in saying, and I don't feel it necessary to claim I have a bunch of "minority" friends to show how non-racist I am, but if they're competent people who don't express their opinions in public, why should they be removed? Should we start removing all Christians because they believe that non-Christians will burn in hell? I worked with many people I hated, and did so professionally and without complaining (in public that is).. Someone's opinions, regardless of how we might see them, should have no bearing on someone's employment. If they start spouting off racist catch phrases and treating non-whites differently, then it becomes a problem.



Good post. As long as they're not, in fact, reflecting negatively on the organization, then I don't care much. That said, if we know their views, then that means that risk exists, at what point does it get declared a problem?


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## Sythen (28 Jun 2012)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Good post. As long as they're not, in fact, reflecting negatively on the organization, then I don't care much. That said, if we know their views, then that means that risk exists, at what point does it get declared a problem?



If we know their views, they aren't keeping their mouths shut about it. If they are in the recruiting process, they can't be allowed in as it seems we support those ideals by letting a "known" in. If they are already in, I am sure a one way conversation with the RSM would sort out him/her opening their mouth/acting unprofessional.


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## OldSolduer (28 Jun 2012)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Good post. As long as they're not, in fact, reflecting negatively on the organization, then I don't care much. That said, if we know their views, then that means that risk exists, at what point does it get declared a problem?



The problem lies when the supremacists form a critical mass. Think about 18 years ago and what happened.


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## ModlrMike (28 Jun 2012)

We all know that xenophobia and hatred are the sole purview of the WASP male, that's why we have to be ever vigilant.  :


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## bick (28 Jun 2012)

Jim,

What exactly are you referring to with "18 years ago?"


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## LineJumper (1 Jul 2012)

CAR


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## OldSolduer (1 Jul 2012)

LineJumper said:
			
		

> CAR





			
				Rhodesian said:
			
		

> Jim,
> 
> What exactly are you referring to with "18 years ago?"



Exactly. 


Personnel with " issues" we're posted to Pet with the expectation that "the Airborne" will sort them out. 

The ones with " issues" formed a critical mass, and coupled with dubious leadership.....we all see the result.


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## vonGarvin (1 Jul 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The ones with " issues" formed a critical mass, and coupled with *dubious leadership*.....we all see the result.


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## Bass ackwards (1 Jul 2012)

Personally, I think this and any articles like it are, for the most part, wishful thinking on the part of the so-called MSM. 
I think they miss those halcyon days of the mid-nineties where they could bash the living crap out of the CF and have a good chunk of the general population singing the same tune.


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## Redeye (2 Jul 2012)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> Personally, I think this and any articles like it are, for the most part, wishful thinking on the part of the so-called MSM.
> I think they miss those halcyon days of the mid-nineties where they could bash the living crap out of the CF and have a good chunk of the general population singing the same tune.



Hard point to argue, given how far back they have to go to dredge up anything significant!


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## FortYorkRifleman (14 Jul 2012)

The problem is people act as though "White Supremacist" are a group when in fact its a belief; therefore yes, they are in the Canadian Forces. Are they the majority, a growing threat? Its hard to say. Having dealt with people of all backgrounds from the armouries to the RC I highly doubt that.


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## exabedtech (14 Jul 2012)

I can't be the only one here who stood on that parade square in 1995 waiting for a jackass MND who lacked the balls to address us, so I know I can't be alone is saying that the army lost a lot more than an outstanding regiment that day.  The fault, as always, lies not with any "critical mass".  The fault lies with leadership and leadership alone.  

As long as the Forces have strong leaders, subversive groups/mentalities will have a VERY difficult time taking root.

Its ALWAYS about the leadership.


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## exabedtech (14 Jul 2012)

Technoviking said:
			
		

>



Most offensive picture ive seen in a very long time.  May he rot in hell.


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## Jarnhamar (15 Jul 2012)

Is there truth to the suggestion that the Airborne Regiment is where people with discipline problems were sent?


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## SeaKingTacco (15 Jul 2012)

Yes.


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## Jarnhamar (15 Jul 2012)

That's all before my time but I've seen an infantry company that was used for all the apparent "problem children". Not a very wise move in my opinion.


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## a_majoor (15 Jul 2012)

The composition of the CF is as diverse as the population it recruits from, I know of people who support the NDP as serving members which should suggest how reasonable and open we actually are  >


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## WrenchBender (15 Jul 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The composition of the CF is as diverse as the population it recruits from, I know of people who support the NDP as serving members which should suggest how reasonable and open we actually are  >


you owe me a keyboard.............

WrenchBender


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## bick (15 Jul 2012)

Was The CAR where people with discipline problems were sent?

No really.  This has be alluded to several times.  Sure, we had some bad guys, but people forget that these guys came to The CAR from the established infantry regiments and support arms.  The CAR did not create these problems.  The VASTE majority of the men of The CAR were honourable soldiers and got posted to do something different then what they were doing in Bn.


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## George Wallace (15 Jul 2012)

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> Was The CAR where people with discipline problems were sent?
> 
> No really.  This has be alluded to several times.  Sure, we had some bad guys, but people forget that these guys came to The CAR from the established infantry regiments and support arms.  The CAR did not create these problems.  The VASTE majority of the men of The CAR were honourable soldiers and got posted to do something different then what they were doing in Bn.



Actually, your are correct; to generalize that CAR was where discipline problems were sent, is wrong.  However, each of the three Infantry Regiments were represented by one of the three Commandos within CAR.  In essence, each Commando was in of itself the "airborne" representatives of their parent Infantry Regiment.   How each Regiment filled posns in "their" Commando, refected on that Regiments policies at the time.  If one choose to send their best and brightest, it reflected on both the Regiment and the Commando.  If one choose to use "their" Commando as a dumping ground for their problem children with the hopes that somehow the CAR would sort them out, then that too reflected on both that Commando and Regiment.  

Members of the CAR and members of other SSF units saw what went on.   Many members of this site were there in one capacity or another, and saw what went on.


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## bick (15 Jul 2012)

George,

Roger, I was one of those....although looking at the Regiment from the inside looking out.  I believe we were our own worst enemy.  We strongly believed that we were the best thing since sliced bread and told everyone that.  We alienated ourselves from the rest of the army and when we needed help, it was easy for people to let us slide towards disbandment.  No generals resigned over the disbandment.

Funny enough, the Regiment was at it's" post Edmonton finest" when it was disbanded.  Col Kenward had done alot to clean house.

I am extremely proud of my service in the Regiment, as I am in my service in my parent unit.  As the old saying goes, "they thrown the baby out with the bathwater."  Too bad.


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## X Royal (15 Jul 2012)

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> Was The CAR where people with discipline problems were sent?
> 
> No really.


BS. There were cases I know this happened. Yes, not an out right dumping ground for discipline problems but it did happen at times.


> The VASTE majority of the men of The CAR were honourable soldiers and got posted to do something different then what they were doing in Bn.


In this I totally agree that the vast majority of the men of The CAR were honorable. 
As for "_to do something different then what they were doing in Bn_" not so much. Other than the jumping aspect, overall generally the same job.


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## bick (15 Jul 2012)

If you call driving around for endless hours in an AVGP and spending 6 weeks a summer doing drill on 1 RCR's parade square in London the same as parachuting, US and British Army exchanges, submarine operations, PPF course......then I guess you're right.


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## aesop081 (15 Jul 2012)

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> US and British Army exchanges,



Something hardly unique to the CAR.


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## Old Sweat (15 Jul 2012)

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> Funny enough, the Regiment was at it's" post Edmonton finest" when it was disbanded.  Col Kenward had done alot to clean house.
> 
> I am extremely proud of my service in the Regiment, as I am in my service in my parent unit.  As the old saying goes, "they thrown the baby out with the bathwater."  Too bad.



And the ironic thing was that, in my opinion and I am basing this on information from excellent sources who were in a position to know, that the regiment would have been disbanded even if the crap had not happened. This was in the early years of the decade of darkness. The defence budget had taken a major hit. The army was going from 10 battalions to six with a further three being reduced to the 10/90 organization. Would any of the infantry regiments have sacrificed a battalion or even a couple of companies so the regiment could survive? Not bluidy likely! But the crap had happened, and the public confidence in the forces had been shaken. The government of the day jumped at a convenient opportunity to paint itself as acting decisively to stamp out a "nest of vipers," and demonstrate that it was going to rein in the military.


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## DirtyDog (15 Jul 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> That's all before my time but I've seen an infantry company that was used for all the apparent "problem children". Not a very wise move in my opinion.


Like rear parties?


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## exabedtech (15 Jul 2012)

Having served in a number of regiments in 3 different brigades, my time with the Airborne was certainly the highlight of my career.  Best training, best soldiers, best leadership.  An elite unit in every respect.  
A lot of crap was leaked to the press that really could have and likely did happen all over the place.  I never saw any it in my commando nor heard of it in the other commandos.

They wanted the Regiment gone and the Liberals did what it took to turn opinion against us.  I still have 'family' members to this day who believe all that crap and think i am or at least was some sort of animal thanks to the media lapdogs of that liberal regime.  Ya, i can get pretty bitter when talk turns to the events of 93-95.

We were professionals.  If we weren't, you can bet something more substantial than a jeep would have burned to the ground post 5 mar 95.

Dumping ground?  I call bullshit.  Not everyone can pass a jump course, and of those that did, it was still a fight to be selected for posting tho the Airborne.  As a professional soldier, you aspire to work with the best and count yourself within their numbers.  That's what this was.  It did create jealously among those unable, unwilling or lacking the intestinal fortitude for such employment, but that wasn't the Airborne's problem.

Elite organisations will always have some degree of elitism.  We were no different.


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## SeaKingTacco (15 Jul 2012)

Ok- this is getting stupid.  No one is saying that there were not excellent soldiers in the AB Regt. Or that the whole Regt was made up from the cast of the dirty dozen.

I agree with the point that was made up thread that, by the time LCol Kenward had been CO for a year, it was probably the best light infantry battalion in NATO.

But why was LCol Kenward necessary?  Remember, he had already commanded a Battalion.  Were there discipline problems before he showed up? You bet.  He cleaned house for a year.  Certain Regiments did "jump their junk" on certain commandos. I saw it.

As for my bona fides- I wore the maroon beret. I served in a number of staff and line positions in Petawawa from 91-96 that gave me a rather unique, first hand view, some of the AB Regt's problems.  

And yes, everyone from NDHQ to the PM's office saw a free shot and took it in 1995.  More  the reason that all of us, as professionals, need to drag onboard the absolute, ironclad necessity to deal firmly and forcefully with our own problem children.  Do not ever, ever, pass your crap to the next unit to solve.  In the rare case where career management forces it, make sure that you have  documented everything or the next unit.


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## Jarnhamar (15 Jul 2012)

Edit:
Apologies, back on track


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Jul 2012)

I'm glad OZ is keeping this thread on track :


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## OldSolduer (25 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm glad OZ is keeping this thread on track :



The  Great and Powerful Oz? ;D


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## Jarnhamar (25 Jul 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The  Great and Powerful Oz? ;D


Thread slayer!
 :threat:


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## OldSolduer (25 Jul 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Thread slayer!
> :threat:




Hehehehe..... >


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