# Reserves on Reg Force courses.



## Blunt Object (24 Feb 2007)

I know they use reservists to add to the numbers for Basic courses like BMQ-BIQ but is it possible for a reservist to get on a reg force course such as a LAV driver, Gunner ect... I ask because training is slow at the unit and I was talking to the OPs staff and they said its possible but unlikely. If anyone has any experience with this situation or knows how the system works and is willing to share their knowledge with me the help would be greatly appreciated.

    Cheers Blunto


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## Franko (24 Feb 2007)

Yes, reservists can get on courses. Your unit Ops WO will have to look into it through CFTPO.

It's based on availability and openings....also whether or not your unit wants to send you.

Regards


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## muskrat89 (24 Feb 2007)

I dunno... granted it was in the 80s and 90s, but people from my Unit went on Regular Courses all the time. I can't say what happens these days however.


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## pylon (24 Feb 2007)

I have to agree with Muskrat..

Much more prevelant in the 90's and maybe the 80's, not sure... But since 01 I can say that I've seen 1 reg force course for a reservist. (Comms)  It just doesn't happen like it used to, why, I'm not sure. In the 90's I can tell you that I've seen several JLC/JNCO crses. 

My 2 cents, not that its worth anything!



kc


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## muskrat89 (24 Feb 2007)

To clarify, I personally attended a Det 2 I/C course which "converted" to a 6A (at that time) qualification in the Reserves. That course included M109s of which we had none, at my Regiment. I also took a MILIPAC course with the Regs. A couple of guys in my Unit had several other courses, including Advanced Arty Tech.


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## geo (25 Feb 2007)

These days, all leadership courses are 100% interchangeable... Elementary, Intermediate and Advanced....
As to technical, in your trade training, it will depend on the trade you belong to.  CME did some changes last year and Reg & Res have the identical trade course - one is split over two summers, the other one isn't.  The cost of training the saper has been set as the same.
If the other trades aren't there yet - they will be soon enough.


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## orange.paint (25 Feb 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> If the other trades aren't there yet - they will be soon enough.



Not the Armd Corp.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Feb 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> These days, all leadership courses are 100% interchangeable... Elementary, Intermediate and Advanced....
> As to technical, in your trade training, it will depend on the trade you belong to.  CME did some changes last year and Reg & Res have the identical trade course - one is split over two summers, the other one isn't.  The cost of training the saper has been set as the same.
> If the other trades aren't there yet - they will be soon enough.



Geo have they decided with the new Reserve Courses where a Pte(B) would change to Pte(T) [i.e. be called Sapper]? would it be after blocks 1-3 or 4-6?


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## geo (25 Feb 2007)

NS... not in the loop for that info.
Will have to wait till I drop in for my next visit.....
Puzzle palace prevents me from getting all pertinent data


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## PPCLI Guy (25 Feb 2007)

Reservists were loaded on the Turret Operator / Crew Commander Course in 1 VP this Fall - are now teaching on the same courses, and will deploy on 1-08.  These days (ie the Army is at war) many things are possible.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Feb 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> NS... not in the loop for that info.
> Will have to wait till I drop in for my next visit.....
> Puzzle palace prevents me from getting all pertinent data



No worries, just would like to give my troops a heads up on when they can be called sappers


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (25 Feb 2007)

PPCLI Guy, 

Your news is very welcome and it's about time that this sort of thing started to happen.  My examples are from the 1999-2004 timeframe.  Glad to see that things are turning around and we aren't letting process get in the way of results for this sort of training.


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## PhilB (25 Feb 2007)

Like PPLCI Guy was saying it is more common. For TF 1-08 a PCF cycle began in the Fall-New yearish time frame. There are guys from my unit on LAV drvr, gnr, crew commander courses as we speak, as well as guys teaching the same course. Additionally we have one troop on his recce course. These courses are directly tied to deploying with the task force but there have been other courses in the past where reservists from my unit have attended reg force courses. i.e. 2003/2004 time frame Advanced Winter Warfare, 2005 time frame CQCI, jump courses, AMO courses, some recce courses around 2001.

I think there may be a difference between eastern and western units in terms of their acceptance of res. guys on reg courses. In my limited experience it is directly attributable to the relationship between the RSS WO's in the units, the reg force units running the courses, and brigade G3's.


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## geo (25 Feb 2007)

Phil... 
some of it will depend on how tight the Bde staff controlls the individual's purse strings.  At present, units will pay for the training their personnel undergo.  If your course uses up tons of expensive ammo, the bill can be quite high....


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## PPCLI Guy (26 Feb 2007)

Command-Sense-Act 105 said:
			
		

> PPCLI Guy,
> Glad to see that things are turning around and we aren't letting process get in the way of results for this sort of training.



Like I said, being at war tends to change things


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## brin11 (26 Feb 2007)

CFSEME occasionally loads reservists on QL3 weapons and vehicle tech serials if there's room.  They complete the parts they require (ex. wpns reservists do small arms but don't continue on to armament) and they are considered equivalently trained to their reg force counterparts on the PO's they've completed.


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## MPIKE (26 Feb 2007)

I think the only true method for a Res today to land the coveted Driving/Quals would be land a position (EN force?) at one of the schools of excellence or the Canadian Maneuver Training Centre (CMTC).  It may be the long way round but rather than wait for a "hell freeze" time frame you get the course and be more acceptable for augmentation to a TF.

Phil B,
I agree with your thought over the expansive differences between Area commands.  Having the opportunity to compare notes with western units (KCOR,BCDs)  they have/had much more opportunity for Augmented training.  In my slice of the world, LFCA doesn't seem to be as accepting of this new concept.  Maybe it's a wait and see approach they are using or it's a closely guarded secret?  But Armour Res here is no closer to being a viable addition to Reg Units until we are cross trained on their platforms and the funding formulas are changed so Home res units are not left paying the bill for that training. (Now this may have been addressed with recent conferences but I never heard of any results or agreement on how to tackle this.)


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## bearded1 (26 Feb 2007)

Maybe it was an artillery thing in the 80's and 90's, for both attending an instructing.  I took the Reg Force FOO Technicians course (then I spent 5 years and 3 ranks in the BC's party), and in turn assisted on the Reg Force Arty Technicians Course for the Milipac, as I was already on the base, and we had the beast early for trials.  We tended to have 1 or 2 guys a year on the Reg Force courses, especially if they overlapped the University schedules (May starts were great...).  I guess things change.

Ubique

Regan


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## Gunnerlove (4 Mar 2007)

Years ago my Leadership course was almost 50/50 reg/res. One guy got disciplined for using a GPS on his patrol. The course officer came into the class room and started going off about how "You reservists lack a sense of professionalism" when a guy at the back yelled out "You know he is a *********(no names no pack drill Reg force Battalion), right?" the officer turned bright red and stormed out of the room. He sure must have been mad when they gave top candidate to a reservist.


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## geo (6 Mar 2007)

Pert much all leadership courses are now common.  Some special "reserve" courses are offered in blocks - to provide oportunities for the working person who can't take 12 weeks off his civ job to qualify for advancement.

WRT gunner's comment on the course officer.... you see that less & less.

During a staff visit to the LFQA TC last year, I spoke to the school CWO & course WO about Res candidates;
1.  Average physical fitness condition was lower.
2.  Lacked some experience / competence in basic fieldcraft
3.  Had more experience than expected in FIBUA / MOAT whatever you want to call it.

Reservists were as hard working as their reg counterparts and were very motivated.  Reg candidates worked well with and worked hard to bring the Res up to an equivalent standard...


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## HollywoodHitman (7 Mar 2007)

We currently have several MCpl's on the LAV gunner/crew comdr course. Looking forward to more of the opportunities that come up as a result of being willing to deploy.

Cheers,

HH


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## geo (7 Mar 2007)

Willing to deploy?
... how about, expected to deploy.


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## Catamaran22 (9 Mar 2007)

You can find lessons on rappelling, driving, artillery, infanty, equipment, etc. at http://www3.telus.net/helper33/#_TRADE_LESSON_PLANS


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## HollywoodHitman (10 Mar 2007)

Reservists need to be willing to deploy for the time being. Expected? Maybe hopeful is a better way to put it......that it is hoped that a reservist will be keen to deploy.


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## geo (10 Mar 2007)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> Reservists need to be willing to deploy for the time being. Expected? Maybe hopeful is a better way to put it......that it is hoped that a reservist will be keen to deploy.


Would think that training someone as a LAV driver, Gunner or Crew commander - only for him to go back to his reserve unit is a somewhat waste of training money.  Skills taught will become dated & forgotten if not put to use on a regular basis - and unfortunately, we don't have the volume of vehicles to make that a certainty....

Soo.... under that idea, personnel taking any LAV course should be expecting to deploy... else, what's the point?


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## HollywoodHitman (10 Mar 2007)

Agreed on being expected to deploy if given a course on the LAV. It'd be nice if the system was equipped to train everyone on each piece of equipment (like the LAV) but at the end of the day, even if the reservist who is on the LAV course, suddenly decided not to go.......Thats that. No chance (in my unit anyway) that they'd ever get a good course again, but there would really be nothing the military could do....

Unless a Class C is signed....and they're not keen on issuing those until the last minute.


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## geo (11 Mar 2007)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> Agreed on being expected to deploy if given a course on the LAV. It'd be nice if the system was equipped to train everyone on each piece of equipment (like the LAV) but at the end of the day, even if the reservist who is on the LAV course, suddenly decided not to go.......Thats that. No chance (in my unit anyway) that they'd ever get a good course again, but there would really be nothing the military could do....
> 
> Unless a Class C is signed....and they're not keen on issuing those until the last minute.



Unless in exceptional situations, class C is restricted to overseas service and the training period that preceeds it.  Class Cs are not signed at the last minute, they are extended just prior to deployment.

Eg: People on TF 3/07 were on Cl C last September for their lead up trg.  They will have the Cl C extended for the actual mission in July of this year for the actual deployment.  Reg force work for reg force salary..... no longer "cheap labour"


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## PPCLI Guy (12 Mar 2007)

I thought the Cl C was only signed once the individual DAGed red?


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## geo (12 Mar 2007)

Reservists who apply for a mission must dag the biggies before being entitled to Cl C =
- Doctor, Immunization
- Dentist,
- Padre / social worker,
- CO
- Fitness test

Someone can attend PSTC training in Kingston without having completed his checklist. If the above 5 are done, he should be paid Cl C.  If they are not, they will only be paid Cl B and there will be NO retroactive adjustment once they have dagged Green..


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## tank recce (12 Mar 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> Reservists who apply for a mission must dag the biggies before being entitled to Cl C =
> - Doctor, Immunization
> - Dentist,
> - Padre / social worker,
> ...



From what I've been told / given to read about TF 3-08, Cl C will be granted for those Dag'd YELLOW, so the individual doesn't pay out of pocket for whatever med / dental repairs are needed to DAG GREEN.


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## geo (12 Mar 2007)

given that personnel on class A are either covered by their Employer's dental plan OR the CFs dental plan... he shouldn't be out of pocket any more than usual... so long as he has been looking after his teeth.


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## tank recce (12 Mar 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> given that personnel on class A are either covered by their Employer's dental plan OR the CFs dental plan... he shouldn't be out of pocket any more than usual... so long as he has been looking after his teeth.


You presume that all civvie employers OFFER dental plans. I'm a licensed professional engineer, and my employer is sufficiently small that they've only last year offered an extended health plan. Dental & vision may be in the works, but probably not by the time I hand in my papers to go play in the sandbox.

As the song says, It ain't necessarily so...


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## Donut (12 Mar 2007)

tank recce said:
			
		

> From what I've been told / given to read about TF 3-08, Cl C will be granted for those Dag'd YELLOW, so the individual doesn't pay out of pocket for whatever med / dental repairs are needed to DAG GREEN.



Cl B over 180 days are entitled to health care at crown expense, so the 7 month + workups should cover that, even they're yellow when they arrive.  Many of us here are getting our ducks in a row ASAP, that 15% difference during workups is what makes it financially feasable for some of us to take the time needed for the mission.

DF


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## Sig_Des (13 Mar 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Cl B over 180 days are entitled to health care at crown expense, so the 7 month + workups should cover that, even they're yellow when they arrive.  Many of us here are getting our ducks in a row ASAP, that 15% difference during workups is what makes it financially feasable for some of us to take the time needed for the mission.
> 
> DF



That would depend if they're given a continuous Class B up until they get on class C, or if they get 89 day contracts with breaks in between, which I wouldn't doubt seeing.....BTW, Happy B-day


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## geo (13 Mar 2007)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> That would depend if they're given a continuous Class B up until they get on class C, or if they get 89 day contracts with breaks in between, which I wouldn't doubt seeing.....BTW, Happy B-day


Not sure where you get that atitude... Reservists on work up training in the Combat & support arms are now being well looked after.  The minute they have dagged, they are paid class C, (same as regs) for the duration of their training.  If they are selected for deployment - or kept on the hook as the rear guard, they will continue to be paid Class C....
Somewhat different for troops being sent on a mission that is not an organised TF (eg: Op Bronze/Boreas) Paid class C if dagged during PSTC training, then back to unit on class A or B until predeployment leave commences... then class C

The old days of signing cl C contracts just before you hop onto a plane out AND class C terminated, the moment you and your stretcher hit canadian soil on your return are long gone.

At least that's how it's done in LFQA


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## Donut (13 Mar 2007)

Geo



			
				geo said:
			
		

> The old days of signing cl C contracts just before you hop onto a plane out AND class C terminated, the moment you and your stretcher hit canadian soil on your return are long gone.
> 
> At least that's how it's done in LFQA



Everything I've heard (At the HSS Ops Conference) indicates that's the case in LFWA for 1-08.

Oh, thanks Des!   ;D

DF


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## geo (13 Mar 2007)

Huh???
As far as I know, the LFQA reservists are being paid Cl C as they undergo their lead up training.  One of the J1 type Captains I work with is detached - on the NCE staff for TF 3/07 since Dec 15th... and has been paid Cl C since then... (and he was paid Cl C the whole time he was on stand-by mode with TF 4/06..).
I will talk to the J1 Ops people in the morning for any changes....


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## Donut (13 Mar 2007)

Geo, poor cutting of the quote on my part.  :-[  

 "Those days are long gone" is what I should have left in.  teach me to post before my coffee.

Yes, as soon as the DAG is green, it's a Cl C, that continues until after the return.  Continuous service, continuous benefits.


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