# Hey look, another one...



## mellian

After spending over three hours straight of going through various FAQs and sticky threads, thought I would make an intro and summery of my experience before I submit my ROTP application. For the past month, been actively thinking about joining the military after being in the back of my mind a lot in the past university term, especially while taking a Women and Peace course in women's Studies program. Something I thought about before on and off since I did the whole Air Cadets thing during junior high and high school, yet decided as being unrealistic due to various mitigating factors. While researching for my essay in that course critical analysis various feminist notions in regards to the relations of war, military, and gender equality, realized that I am at a point in life that I can seriously consider in joining unlike before. 

I am presently doing my second year of university which was another thing I originally thought I would never be able to achieve in city I have been wanting to move too for several years before. Also the most fittest I ever been since I started doing roller derby (yes, it is back, google it) last January, which resulted in feeling more confident and happier with my body and myself. So when the thought of joining the military came to mind, admittedly due in part to unstable financial situation that has been gradually spiraling downwards since August, it just seem right and natural next step, more so than any other career I could think of doing after University. 

Silly as it may, only thing that is rally making me hesitate from even applying is roller derby, as half if not most of my derby league's games happening in the first half of the summer a long with a roller derby conference. Derby such a huge part of my life right providing a lot of physical, social, and mental benefits, and 2009 going to be even more awesome with potential achieving lots in skill and experience. Yet, it unfortunately doesn't pay, in all actually it cost money to even play. Assuming I get enrolled, I see the military being similarly beneficial and more, plus provide financial stability during my remaining two years of school and  rewarding (starting at least) post-university career. Also, not like I will be able to do roller derby for the rest of the year while I am still in University, nor return to it once I have completed military service (there women in their 40s and 50s playing derby and kicking butt out there). Overall, one set of needs versus another. Now I came to conclusion to just apply anyway either way, letting fate determine the path. If I do get enrolled this time for whatever reason and do basic during the summer, then at least I have derby and the championships, otherwise, complete focus on school with no financial stress or worries. 

The occupations that I am interested in (and can realistically do) is Intelligence and Aerospace Control. If not those, then anything else within the Air element that I can do, or some in Army. Mainly only considering ROTP as a way to take advantage of my major in Political Science and Minor in Women's Studies (hey, they balance each other out) which I will eventually acquire. 

I do have concerns and questions in regards to the application process, but much of it have been answered already by RC, some folks in another message board I frequent, and here. Should of saw me when I first discovered milnet.ca/army.ca, glaze eyes and all at the wealth of information, as well source of amusement from some of the discussions. Main concerns that I have which will be potential negating factors to my application is my present not so great GPA due to screwing up two Poli Sci classes last term, the beating my credit has been getting this fall due to unfortunate financial downturn thanks to lack of not getting enough from student loans and lack of work hours, and the whole me needing to wear glasses or eye contacts. 

Physical Fitness I am confident I can achieve by summer due to already being physically with roller derby, just that I need work more on my arm and core strength to make the push-up and chin-up requirements, especially with my 6'0" 185lbs bulk. There one potential headache and slowdown in regards to medical, but it has been non-issue for years. Aptitude I will for sure have to work on my math and problem solving skills which has been rusting away since high school. There is also references which may pose a problem, due to not being in contact or friends with few people that known me for 5 continuous years that wouldn't take an issue of me wanting to join the military. Reliability check shouldn't be too hard as I already acquired before via a temp agency few years back, possibly Secret as well which I never heard back on. Of course, present financial problems and credit beating may change that, but I hoping to have that under control by January and back on track before summer even comes around. 

So yes, I do intend to continue browsing this forum for more info and use the search topic/FAQs before asking any questions.


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## benny88

If the main reason you're applying is finances, and the main reason you're delayed in doing so is roller derby, perhaps you should reconsider. If you're sure, then welcome to the site and good luck.


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## mellian

benny88 said:
			
		

> If the main reason you're applying is finances, and the main reason you're delayed in doing so is roller derby, perhaps you should reconsider. If you're sure, then welcome to the site and good luck.



Not the main reason, otherwise I wouldn't be applying, just the motivation that got me to actively think base on actual interest. While derby is a big deal to me, realized joining the military is as well with the help of derby and university. The interest been there since the cadets, just been quiet and impossible until now. Apart from subsidization, it will also provide an experience and challenge I been seeking, as well provide some structure and self-discipline which has been lacking my life. So yes, bit hard to explain without appearing too spiritual and weird, but thank you.


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## Marshall

I do not need any more competition, so forget it and get lost.

Haha joking!

Go for it! But do it ASAP because the deadline is soon approaching for the ROTP 09-10 program. Do not procrastinate and get that application into the CFRC or you may find yourself waiting until the 10-11 Program. :/ 

Good luck! keep us updated.


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## mellian

Marshall said:
			
		

> I do not need any more competition, so forget it and get lost.
> 
> Haha joking!
> 
> Go for it! But do it ASAP because the deadline is soon approaching for the ROTP 09-10 program. Do not procrastinate and get that application into the CFRC or you may find yourself waiting until the 10-11 Program. :/
> 
> Good luck! keep us updated.



I am aware, just still have to track down some information that I am missing and needed for the application, as well figure out the references.


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## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> I am aware, just still have to track down some information that I am missing and needed for the application, as well figure out the references.



Yeah, references can sometimes be annoying. But at least with the CF you just need their phone number etc instead of getting them to fill out forms and such like a lot of CivvieU's hehe.


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## mellian

Marshall said:
			
		

> Yeah, references can sometimes be annoying. But at least with the CF you just need their phone number etc instead of getting them to fill out forms and such like a lot of CivvieU's hehe.



That good to know. For the transcripts, would photocopies and print outs be fine, or do they need stamp ones?


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## benny88

mellian said:
			
		

> That good to know. For the transcripts, would photocopies and print outs be fine, or do they need stamp ones?



You need the originals. They will make certified copies at the Recruiting Centre.


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## mellian

benny88 said:
			
		

> You need the originals. They will make certified copies at the Recruiting Centre.



That includes all the original IDs and certificates I am guessing. Fortunately, RC is like a block away from University.


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## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> That includes all the original IDs and certificates I am guessing. Fortunately, RC is like a block away from University.



They will take copies of items such as ID, Diploma etc if the situation calls for it (you live 200km away from CFRC  :, but they required me to bring them when I came for processing) . But transcript HAS to be official regardless. You sound like you are close so they would probably want everything original to make lives easier.


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## mellian

Marshall said:
			
		

> They will take copies of items such as ID, Diploma etc if the situation calls for it (you live 200km away from CFRC  :, but they required me to bring them when I came for processing) . But transcript HAS to be official regardless. You sound like you are close so they would probably want everything original to make lives easier.



A question just came to mind, would it matter if the transcript doesn't include the latest completed term? My marks still hasn't come in and not sure when it will, so if it still haven't by the time I get an official university transcript printed out, do I just send RC another copy when it does? Right, i'll do that.


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## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> A question just came to mind, would it matter if the transcript doesn't include the latest completed term? My marks still hasn't come in and not sure when it will, so if it still haven't by the time I get an official university transcript printed out, do I just send RC another copy when it does? Right, i'll do that.



That I am not sure since I applied out of school. Something to ask the CFRC I guess unless someone enlightens you here. I am guessing though that they would want the most up to date marks* in your possession. *


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## PanaEng

mellian said:
			
		

> A question just came to mind, would it matter if the transcript doesn't include the latest completed term? My marks still hasn't come in and not sure when it will, so if it still haven't by the time I get an official university transcript printed out, do I just send RC another copy when it does? Right, i'll do that.


They'll take whatever you have - the most recent one preferably - even if it is preliminary marks. If you are concerned about your marks, make sure you emphasize extra-curricular activities that demonstrate leadership as well as team sports... I think RD qualifies even if unconventional  
At lest that's what they did for me. 
Good luck.

Frank


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## mellian

PanaEng said:
			
		

> They'll take whatever you have - the most recent one preferably - even if it is preliminary marks. If you are concerned about your marks, make sure you emphasize extra-curricular activities that demonstrate leadership as well as team sports... I think RD qualifies even if unconventional
> At lest that's what they did for me.
> Good luck.
> 
> Frank



Oh that I plan to do in spades, just that a lot of the extra-curricular activities and volunteering over the years may seem unconventional.


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## mellian

I am still waiting to get the needed references which taking longer than I would like. Bit hard to ask friends that known me for a number of years for this kind of reference, especially without getting into a discussion about pros/cons dis-mythizing the military. Also doesn't help losing the contact info for someone, and then needing to wait for others to respond to provide the contact info before using it. I at least have two, one 5+ years and the other 1 year (I am told as long provide one or two 5+ years, rest usually okay), but trying get bit of variety than just friends like maybe a doctor or youth counselor who known me since I was little and the other since high school, despite on and off. Not sure if they would be acceptable thought. 

I plan to go through my stuff again for that contact info, as well maybe find my old reliability forms for contact info and addresses that I am still missing, otherwise it is the waiting game. :/


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## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> I am still waiting to get the needed references which taking longer than I would like. Bit hard to ask friends that known me for a number of years for this kind of reference, especially without getting into a discussion about pros/cons dis-mythizing the military. Also doesn't help losing the contact info for someone, and then needing to wait for others to respond to provide the contact info before using it. I at least have two, one 5+ years and the other 1 year (I am told as long provide one or two 5+ years, rest usually okay), but trying get bit of variety than just friends like maybe a doctor or youth counselor who known me since I was little and the other since high school, despite on and off. Not sure if they would be acceptable thought.
> 
> I plan to go through my stuff again for that contact info, as well maybe find my old reliability forms for contact info and addresses that I am still missing, otherwise it is the waiting game. :/


The references requirements is quite messed up to be honest. I was told by 3 different recruiters that:

1 Reference must have known you for 5+ years
ALL References must have known you for 5+ years
All 3 References combined must have known you for at least 5 years total.


My references knew me for 5+, 5+ and 3. They ended up only calling the 3 year because she is my employer hehe. Or at least thats what I heard.


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## George Wallace

Marshall said:
			
		

> The references requirements is quite messed up to be honest. I was told by 3 different recruiters that:
> 
> 1 Reference must have known you for 5+ years
> ALL References must have known you for 5+ years
> All 3 References combined must have known you for at least 5 years total.           ???
> 
> 
> My references knew me for 5+, 5+ and 3. They ended up only calling the 3 year because she is my employer hehe. Or at least thats what I heard.



I don't think you have your facts correct.  

You are lucky in that one of your references was accepted (perhaps) in this case.  As you progress through your screenings, and get to the SECURITY CLEARANCE, that reference will be rejected.  SO!  Be safe and follow the instructions and put down references who have known you for at least five of your sixteen or so years.  Surely you have at least three friends or acquaintances over your short lifespan, who will fit that criteria.  As I said, you will need them later, so stop fooling around and list them NOW.


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## Marshall

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I don't think you have your facts correct.
> 
> You are lucky in that one of your references was accepted (perhaps) in this case.  As you progress through your screenings, and get to the SECURITY CLEARANCE, that reference will be rejected.  SO!  Be safe and follow the instructions and put down references who have known you for at least five of your sixteen or so years.  Surely you have at least three friends or acquaintances over your short lifespan, who will fit that criteria.  As I said, you will need them later, so stop fooling around and list them NOW.



I was told those 3 scenarios by the ones who helped me with my file, the facts I am going by are of that supplied by my recruiters   And the recruiter told me during the interview that they do not always use all the references unless needed. I also asked at that point about the requirements for references because I was still confused and he said I was covered and It should be nothing to worry about


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## George Wallace

Marshall said:
			
		

> I was told those 3 scenarios by the ones who helped me with my file, the facts I am going by are of that supplied by my recruiters   And the recruiter told me during the interview that they do not always use all the references unless needed. I also asked at that point about the requirements for references because I was still confused and he said I was covered and It should be nothing to worry about



And I do Security Clearances, and I know that what I said is something you will have to worry about........in the very near future, if you become an officer cadet.


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## Marshall

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And I do Security Clearances, and I know that what I said is something you will have to worry about........in the very near future, if you become an officer cadet.



Can you explain it for me please? When does this take place? And would you just use the other references if you found the 3 year one insufficient? (you can pm me if you'd rather not fill this persons thread) Thanks.


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## George Wallace

For anyone joining now, all CFRCs are starting to implement BACKCHECK.  BackCheck is the new company contracted to check your References.  You are required to provide five (5) references now.  

You are given INSTRUCTIONS to follow.  This company is expected to check all your references.

Once you become a member of the CF, you will then have to do a SECURITY CLEARANCE and you will have to have references who have known you for a minimum of five (5) years.


It can't get any simpler than that.


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## George Wallace

On looking at Marshall's profile, we see he is only 18.  The Instructions state:



> Who Can Be a Reference?
> 
> Any adult, who is not immediate family or a relative, can act as a reference.  Your references must have known you for at least five (5) continuous years of coverage (or to age 16, whichever comes first).  It is advisable to choose references who can provide information about you from a variety of different perspectives.  These people must be able to tell the interviewer about your personal character:
> 
> Employment References:  These persons are former or current co-workers, supervisors or employers.
> 
> Educational References:  These persons are former or current teachers, professors or coaches who will attest to how quickly you learn and how diligent you are/were as a student.
> 
> Personal References:  These persons are neighbours, family friends, religious/spiritual leaders or community leaders who have known you through the various stages of your life.




SO!  Being 18, his teacher of three years meets the criteria at this time.  Once Marshall is 21, then all his References must have known him for five (5) years.  Currently, his being 18, they only have to know him as far back as his 16th birthday.


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## Marshall

George Wallace said:
			
		

> On looking at Marshall's profile, we see he is only 18.  The Instructions state:
> 
> 
> SO!  Being 18, his teacher of three years meets the criteria at this time.  Once Marshall is 21, then all his References must have known him for five (5) years.  Currently, his being 18, they only have to know him as far back as his 16th birthday.



 its good that this new BACKCHECK is coming out to engrave the requirements better.

I read that when I applied, and thats why I figured my employer (3 years) was ok.  Thanks for the information and clarifying. 

EDIT: added comment, did not want to doublepost.


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## mellian

Well I will be passing by the RC tomorrow for clarification on what they need.


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## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> Well I will be passing by the RC tomorrow for clarification on what they need.



Probably the best thing. While George Wallace did clear it up nicely it would still be good to know exactly what the CFRC you are dealing with want to make your application move a little more smoothly.


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## mellian

Ended not stopping by due to needing to check out an apartment before heading off to practice. While reviewing the reliability clearance forms, notice actually need 5 years worth of addresses. I am wondering where I got the 10 years require from, probably from my last Reliability check 3 years ago. If it is needed, wouldn't they find it on some clearance record somewhere?

As for references, I got two: A 8 year and a 1 year. Still hoping the 10 year provides confirmation and needed contact info, especially when the relationship not just friend related. Then there is a 5 year, but not sure. I keep having Jeopardy theme song in my head whenever I comb through the application, waiting for needed info. Only thing after that is getting an official transcript from University which I can easily acquire.

Apart from that, still been reviewing the occupations. Ones that peak my interest are Intelligence and Aerospace Control, yet trying to decide what other I would be interested if not qualified or available for first two.


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## mellian

I remember being told that the due date is January 15th, so wondering if that is correct or I misheard? Been unable to find the that info anywhere. Starting to get frustrated as no response in regards to couple of people I asked for reference, and now it is xmas week, so most likely off for the holidays. Now considering maybe asking another friend in Ottawa who known me for almost five years, just that the relation I have and the group we are part of is unconventional, yet may get a quicker response despite holidays and be able submit the application this week (Are RCs open on xmas eve?). After some of the ROTP threads, started feeling the pressure, especially with other things going on lately.


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## Nfld Sapper

They close at noon on the 24th and will reopen on the 5th of Jan.


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## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> I remember being told that the due date is January 15th, so wondering if that is correct or I misheard? Been unable to find the that info anywhere. Starting to get frustrated as no response in regards to couple of people I asked for reference, and now it is xmas week, so most likely off for the holidays. Now considering maybe asking another friend in Ottawa who known me for almost five years, just that the relation I have and the group we are part of is unconventional, yet may get a quicker response despite holidays and be able submit the application this week (Are RCs open on xmas eve?). After some of the ROTP threads, started feeling the pressure, especially with other things going on lately.



If a reference is being laggy, then I would scrap the person and use someone you might actually get a response from. If the person(s) have not bothered to respond then they probably would not be ones to give much care when/if they did get called. BUT then again they may still be good and just busy, it is Christmas after all. I would try getting into contact by phone if possible to speed up an answer. (if you have not already)


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## KingKikapu

I was just thinking over Educational References.  Most of my good profs have not known me for 5 continuous years.  Either they know me from way back (high school etc), or they know me more recently from university, but for less than five years. 

That sort of sucks because it means I have to rely on old high school teacher references to which I am probably fading from their memory under the sheer volume of students that they've been charged with teaching in the meantime.  Those people don't know me.  I've pushed way past those limits since then.

I guess I'll have to rely on character and employment references instead.


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## mellian

Marshall said:
			
		

> If a reference is being laggy, then I would scrap the person and use someone you might actually get a response from. If the person(s) have not bothered to respond then they probably would not be ones to give much care when/if they did get called. BUT then again they may still be good and just busy, it is Christmas after all. I would try getting into contact by phone if possible to speed up an answer. (if you have not already)



I have and said they will look into it, and now they will not be able to until after the holidays. Anyway, I got a third reference from the unconventional who agreed right away without needing to get into any discussion about the military and why. 

Of course, just got news that University as closed until Jan 5th, hence will not be able to get official transcripts from them until then, doh...

Snowstorms and Holidays has caused lots of headaches for me lately.


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## mellian

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> I was just thinking over Educational References.  Most of my good profs have not known me for 5 continuous years.  Either they know me from way back (high school etc), or they know me more recently from university, but for less than five years.
> 
> That sort of sucks because it means I have to rely on old high school teacher references to which I am probably fading from their memory under the sheer volume of students that they've been charged with teaching in the meantime.  Those people don't know me.  I've pushed way past those limits since then.
> 
> I guess I'll have to rely on character and employment references instead.



I was told if I provide at least one 5+ years, then rest of references not as big of deal. Of course, doesn't stop one from providing more than three, while making it clear of how many years they known you.


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## mellian

I just called RC to confirm that the transcripts need to be officialized, and was told I can wait until Jan 5th, as the due dates for complete applications Jan 15th and the decisions are done by February. Hence, even if aptitude and medical stuff not completed not done by Jan 15th, there is still time before February. That is the info I just got anyway.    

Also, one of the people I was waiting for reference info and confirmation just emailed me too.


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## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> I just called RC to confirm that the transcripts need to be officialized, and was told I can wait until Jan 5th, as the due dates for complete applications Jan 15th and the decisions are done by February. Hence, even if aptitude and medical stuff not completed not done by Jan 15th, there is still time before February. That is the info I just got anyway.
> 
> Also, one of the people I was waiting for reference info and confirmation just emailed me too.



I am pretty sure everything HAS to be done by the deadline. Or at least that is what I've been told and followed, they are usually there for a reason 

But, if the recruiter said that you can do that stuff after the 15th then it must be?  ???


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## mellian

Marshall said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure everything HAS to be done by the deadline. Or at least that is what I've been told and followed, they are usually there for a reason
> 
> But, if the recruiter said that you can do that stuff after the 15th then it must be?  ???



I will try to get all of it done before the due date, as well confirm on Jan 5th, but I figure if it is only the medical that is left or delayed a bit, then may possibly let it slide if rest is completed? I will see I guess. Since I do anything about it until RC re-opens after the holidays, I may as well focus on other things like moving to a new apartment I just signed, finding someone for this apartment, family xmas stuff, complete re-vamp derby league website, and etc in the meantime.


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## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> I will try to get all of it done before the due date, as well confirm on Jan 5th, but I figure if it is only the medical that is left or delayed a bit, then may possibly let it slide if rest is completed? I will see I guess. Since I do anything about it until RC re-opens after the holidays, I may as well focus on other things like moving to a new apartment I just signed, finding someone for this apartment, family xmas stuff, complete re-vamp derby league website, and etc in the meantime.



I am not sure on this. All I know is the board would probably want it done for the due date. As for medical, unless you get 100% on that then it will extend your process to 2-5 weeks extra for it to go to Ottawa. But if you do not have any important medical problems you will be fine.


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## mellian

Marshall said:
			
		

> I am not sure on this. All I know is the board would probably want it done for the due date. As for medical, unless you get 100% on that then it will extend your process to 2-5 weeks extra for it to go to Ottawa. But if you do not have any important medical problems you will be fine.



We will see, depends on their definition and perspective on 'important medical problem'.


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## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> We will see, depends on their definition and perspective on 'important medical problem'.



Yea, as long as there is not anything you think would hold you back you should be fine (unless the med discovered something of course). Either way keep it up and Merry Christmas


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## mellian

So yes, I ended up deciding at the end, after doing the first practice of the new year, that I will wait for the following year to apply. Rollerderby need just to strong right now and so much going on this year in regards it, especially as our league just became the first canadian and first international league to join Women's Flat Track Roller Derby (WFTDA). That and also really feels I may reach my peak this year as well. If I miss the bulk of it this summer, I would end regretting it. I will also regret not applying to this now, but something that will really come into effect until after University anyway.  Only thing wondering now is when can start applying for 2009-10 ROTP? I rather not needing to re-ask for the references again year later, so applying for following as soon as I can would be great.

Apart from that, the world is really small as the last recruiter I saw to check out my application (which I would have submitted if University didn't take their sweet time sending the official transcripts), is one of my team's newest players boyfriend, lol. Quite amusing when I realized where I met him before at my team's anniversary the other day, and then later helped out with the newest player moving almost the rest of my stuff to the new apartment. At least I know who to ask and look for next time I am at the RC.


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## martr

mellian said:
			
		

> Only thing wondering now is when can start applying for 2009-10 ROTP? I rather not needing to re-ask for the references again year later, so applying for following as soon as I can would be great.




The deadline was January 15th 2009 actually. I would go to the Recruiting Center ASAP to see if there's any way you can submit a late application.

Martin.


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## mellian

martr said:
			
		

> The deadline was January 15th 2009 actually. I would go to the Recruiting Center ASAP to see if there's any way you can submit a late application.
> 
> Martin.



Oops, I meant 2010-11, as in when are we allowed to submit applications for that ROTP period? Decided to postpone my application until then.


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## PanaEng

You got me a bit confused (easily done).
You want to delay your application by one year because you want to do RD this summer or the next two summers?

The application process starts every fall for the cohort entering the system in the spring/summer for basic training and Mil Col/university in the fall.
So, the period you will skip by not proceeding now would be this coming summer. The next application period would be 2009-10, so you would go to basic in the spring 2010. The one after would be 2010-11 and would start training in the spring 2011. The exact dates are probably not posted yet so you will have to keep checking with the RC early in the fall.

cheers,
Frank


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## mellian

Is the dates for the next ROTP application up online somewhere?


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## mellian

Now that university is done for the summer, and presently between employments while waiting for EI, been actively thinking about applying for CF. I held off from applying last time due to coming financial issues, too last minute, and oh ya, roller derby, which has been keeping occupied lately. 

With the ups and downs of moving, work stopping giving me work, barely scraping by while my credit takes a further beating, etc, resulted in less focus on university and flunking a class I have been struggling to keep up. After the feedback from the prof, not even sure about competency for University, mainly in regards to writing papers and exams dealing with theories and philosophy. Keep saying to myself I would have done better if only had University to worry about, but not so sure with my present morale. Whatever the case, I will have to retake the course and couple of others I received bad marks on from the previous year for similar reasons.

Apart from that, becoming normal now for to actively thinking about applying for CF,  yet also keep it to myself. Feels like coming out, I swear, not knowing who will look at you strangely or not, end the friendship, get the political rants which I already pretty well, and so on. With not knowing what to do when I "grow up", CF only thing that is jumping to my mind, with rest being things I would like to do or not to do (volunteer board of directors for some non-profit organizations, marshaling at some marches and protests, help organize and coordinate and run events, stage managing, working with others in projects, roller derby, etc) which I would not mind getting paid for...at least doing without worrying about finances I should say. 

With the recent blahs with University, not even sure if I should continue trying for ROTP, or just straight out apply and maybe complete University later in life or something. Before going to Recruitment Centre again with my application, which I prefer submitting ASAP to keep the references valid, need to get the transcript after getting EI, and also getting my debt consolidated as well. Still looking into Intelligence and Aerospace Control, now Signal Operator. I am not hundred percent as they are mainly interests, but I do know rather avoid Naval. Air first and Ground second for me. My teammates husband, who works at the Recruiting Centre, mentioned MARS, but avoided answering that. 

So yes, that is the plan for the month in that regards: get EI, debt consolidation, transcript, and then apply.


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## mellian

Okay, some of those goals have been achieved. Transcript have not acquired yet, partially due to getting not so great grades from last term which I expected due very up and down circumstances. Problem is those grades knock me down to conditional standing with the University. I know I can resolve it by retaking that class and couple of others from last year, but does not make very confident on using my transcript for anything right now. I will still get it and submit the completed application anyways, as I will not know for sure unless I do and without being able explain it in the interview and qualification process.

I have done a lot of good things that I am proud of, and others I know I can do, but hard to prove it on paper. I may not exactly know what I would like to do with my life, I do know I would like to make a difference, positive and productive one. I started university as something to achieve, to prove to myself at least that I can do it which I previously thought I would not be able to. Of course, life makes a point to not make it easy. Not just with obstacles that threatens one's circumstantial stability, but good things as well. 

So yes, not letting another week go by without submitting that application. May just apply without the university aspect too.


----------



## mellian

So, I submitted the application. Got delayed further as I received the marks for the last term, and found out I can't get an official transcript until I pay whatever money I presently owe University which will not happen any time soon. 

After being nudge by the recruiter last weekend (partnered to a teammate), came in finally, and after discussing it further, decided to stick with non-commission for now, with Aerospace Control (lots of openings presently), Intelligence (doubt it, but does not hurt to try), and Naval Communications (base on the discussion we had).

Now that the ball is rolling, now time to just wait for it to get processed and security clearance to get through.


----------



## Marshall

mellian said:
			
		

> So, I submitted the application. Got delayed further as I received the marks for the last term, and found out I can't get an official transcript until I pay whatever money I presently owe University which will not happen any time soon.
> 
> After being nudge by the recruiter last weekend (partnered to a teammate), came in finally, and after discussing it further, decided to stick with non-commission for now, with Aerospace Control (lots of openings presently), Intelligence (doubt it, but does not hurt to try), and Naval Communications (base on the discussion we had).
> 
> Now that the ball is rolling, now time to just wait for it to get processed and security clearance to get through.



That really blows about the university debt. . . 

But great on you that you are staying with a CF idea, nothing wrong with NCM and you can always try for Officer down the road once debt is paid for if you still wish 

Goodluck!


----------



## mellian

That is the plan, and gives me the opportunity to gain experience and time to determine whether being an officer would be right for me, or even whether the CF would be in the longer term.


----------



## mellian

I received a nice wake up call this morning. As soon as the recruiter said 'Canadian Forces', I went from half awake grogginess to fully awake in a mere second. So I have aptitude testing later this week.


----------



## Otis

mellian said:
			
		

> I received a nice wake up call this morning. As soon as the recruiter said 'Canadian Forces', I went from half awake grogginess to fully awake in a mere second. So I have aptitude testing later this week.



Good luck ... STUDY STUDY STUDY for the Apptitude test! All of your trade selections require high scores on the CFAT, so you have to do well (www.math.com)


----------



## Larkvall

Otis said:
			
		

> Good luck ... STUDY STUDY STUDY for the Apptitude test! All of your trade selections require high scores on the CFAT, so you have to do well (www.math.com)



I took Otis' advice and I passed a couple months ago!


----------



## Otis

Larkvall said:
			
		

> I took Otis' advice and I passed a couple months ago!



WHAT?!? Someone admits to listening to ME? 

Larkvall, you'll go nowhere admitting things like THAT! (any more than you would telling people ArmyVern needs pants!)


----------



## mellian

Otis said:
			
		

> Good luck ... STUDY STUDY STUDY for the Apptitude test! All of your trade selections require high scores on the CFAT, so you have to do well (www.math.com)



Yes, that is my plan, especially the day before.


----------



## mellian

I completed the Aptitude Testing, as well as the Drug form. As I thought, butchered the math portion, but from what I understand we pass, as in meet the requirement of our choices. Yet, bit confused as half those who did the test went for interviews right away, and then soon later told by someone else we made the Aptitude requirements, here is the date for medical check ups, and see you later. Now doubting myself whether I should have waited, or was okay to leave...

Anyway, another month and the half of waiting as medical is first of september. I may call occasional to check for cancellations, and at least tomorrow to determine when the interview will be. 


So yes, feels anti-climatic somewhat after week of excitement and serious thought about all this.


----------



## Otis

The People that went for interviews were being counselled because they either did not pass or did not do well enough to get the trade they selected.

If you were told you passed, you did fine and weren't wrong to leave when they told you that you were done. Congratulations, first step down, one step closer to joining!


----------



## mellian

Otis said:
			
		

> The People that went for interviews were being counselled because they either did not pass or did not do well enough to get the trade they selected.
> 
> If you were told you passed, you did fine and weren't wrong to leave when they told you that you were done. Congratulations, first step down, one step closer to joining!



Yes, that is what I am told (by the teammate's partner who works at RC), but forgot to ask if would be possible to maybe have the medical elsewhere if can get it sooner, like the RC in Ottawa which I am willing to pay a bus ticket to do...


----------



## Otis

Unfortunately that's not usually possible ... they want to keep your files all in the same place generally.


----------



## mellian

Otis said:
			
		

> Unfortunately that's not usually possible ... they want to keep your files all in the same place generally.



I figured, but wouldn't hurt to ask. Oh well, at least I have derby to keep me occupied and fit in the meantime, and need to to really focus on upper body strength exercises. I make the minimum for push ups and sit ups, but cannot do even a single chin up. I will have to find monkey bars or something work on those...

Also considering at least changing one of my occupation choices, due to limited opening anyway. Maybe replace Intelligence with Armour, and ignore my friends advice on what 'is safe' for that one.


----------



## mellian

Way back when, I use to be in the air cadets for several years of my life. I remember the other week when I did CFAT, they also got us to fill out some missing signatures and info in our applications. The CFAT officer mention something about cadets, but I was distracted while looking at what was missing in the forms and did not hear what he said exactly at that point. I guessed something about checking off if any of us been in the cadets. So I look through the form quickly to see where one is suppose to do so, and only found the cadet instructor portion Part B1. 

Well, it has been occasionally nagging me since in the back of my mind, and then checked the application form and found the portion he was probably referring to in Part C. I do not remember if I previously checked it off or not, or whether I didn't because I thought it would not make a difference. 

Would it make a difference if I did cadets in the past and forgot to check it on the application? My thought that it was not be a big deal, especially as I ended up not doing anything significant with the cadets, as in no summer camp training and such due to constantly moving and forced to change squadrons a few times. Due to lack of progress in the cadets and other issues, I simply left when I was 16. Oh and legally changed my name since then (yes, that is included in the application). 

Base on some of the cadet info I found on the site, since I did no training and such, left early, and been a decade later, it would not contribute to anything when joining as Regular NCM. Sure, I still have some knowledge from that experience like drill and such which I cannot forget like one cannot forget how to ride a bicycle, but that only helps to some degree initially in BMQ. 

Yet, will it cause any problems if they discover I did cadets and that is not mentioned in the application? Would it slow the application process if I do mention it, especially as they would have to contact 4 different squadrons, one of whom is in BC?

...*gets her cell and simply calls RC*


----------



## mellian

Since it has been more than 10 years ago, and I never received any serial number as I was never employed within the cadets, makes no difference if I checked it off or not. 

Also there has been no cancellations in medical. :/


----------



## EPF

mellian said:
			
		

> Maybe replace Intelligence with Armour, and ignore my friends advice on what 'is safe' for that one.


Ah, but who's joining the CF to "be safe" anyway?  >

Best of luck!


----------



## mellian

EPF said:
			
		

> Ah, but who's joining the CF to "be safe" anyway?  >
> 
> Best of luck!



Indeed, but is more in reference to level of openmindness and tolerance.


----------



## mellian

Since applying and doing the CFAT, been thinking more of changing my choices or at least rearrange the order. Part of that is from thinking more and more about it all as well from further reading posts/threads on milnet. There is the case that I let the recruiter friend influence my choices a bit to much, being Navy himself. 

So I am thinking replacing Intelligence with Armour and Naval Communication with ATIS tech, while switching AC to third choice. I will for sure consult with the RC next week along with asking if there has been any cancellations in Medical. 

In the meantime, trying to further analyze my interest/attraction to Armour, at least the Coyotes. I blame the Combat School series, which I am still trying to find all the complete episodes of online, but started even before that. I remember seeing them at least every 6 months or so at St-Laurent mall back in Ottawa as I lived nearby, always looking at the LAV there. At first and by my friend, focused to much on what is 'safe' and 'openminded/tolerant', considering my background. Yet, do not want to let that be a criteria, and just chose what interest me. Part of it is I like the idea of being there, at the front somewhere. 

So yes, will call RC next week after I come back from playing a couple of bouts in Hamilton and Buffalo this weekend, while being careful I do not get hurt like I did wednesday night getting winded and then falling on my hip bone. Ow....


----------



## mariomike

mellian said:
			
		

> In the meantime, trying to further analyze my interest/attraction to Armour, at least the Coyotes.



Good for you! That shows good spirit! I always admired the "Iron Fist". 
Thanks, by the way, for mentioning Doctor Maslow. I had never heard of his work. It makes interesting reading for this "rocking chair quarterback"! hahaha


----------



## MeghanC

Hi,

If it helps in your choices, intelligence operator is currently closed, I checked it out at the recruiters this week so switching it out is for the best, I was considering it as well. I apologize if you already were aware of this as I haven't read completely through this thread.


----------



## mellian

MeghanC said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> If it helps in your choices, intelligence operator is currently closed, I checked it out at the recruiters this week so switching it out is for the best, I was considering it as well. I apologize if you already were aware of this as I haven't read completely through this thread.



There was 8 openings when I submitted the application in June, and I figured it would not be realistic.


----------



## PuckChaser

That's odd that you were told Intelligence Operator was closed... it's a red trade (very undermanned) in the CF. Perhaps it went back to being OT only, but I'm sure one of the recruiters that are on this site can be more accurate as to its status.


----------



## Otis

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That's odd that you were told Intelligence Operator was closed... it's a red trade (very undermanned) in the CF. Perhaps it went back to being OT only, but I'm sure one of the recruiters that are on this site can be more accurate as to its status.



As I've said before, the status of the trade has little to do with the intake in any given year ... a greater factor is the amount of intake the training system for that particular trade can handle.

Having said that, there ARE still some (very few) openings for Int Op ... assuming of course that you were intending to apply for Reg F Int Op ... if you were looking for Reserves, then it's quite possible the Reserve Intelligence Unit in your area is full.


----------



## mellian

Otis said:
			
		

> As I've said before, the status of the trade has little to do with the intake in any given year ... a greater factor is the amount of intake the training system for that particular trade can handle.
> 
> Having said that, there ARE still some (very few) openings for Int Op ... assuming of course that you were intending to apply for Reg F Int Op ... if you were looking for Reserves, then it's quite possible the Reserve Intelligence Unit in your area is full.



That, and Intel Op has different number of openings according to element, regular or reserver, and NCM or Officer, all of which have their own code number from what i've seen. I was aiming for Regular NCM Air Intel Op, which had 8 openings at the time of application submission. As any trades, may change by the time I pass all the application requirements.


----------



## mellian

So yes, did my medical yesterday, and the only concerns I had does not seem like it will be a problem. They only need me to go elsewhere to confirm my vision, get my blood work done, and medical confirmation from my doctors, all of which I will get done this week. No interview until all that is taken cared of, so at least another week for that. Asked if it will take another month or so for the medical info to go to Ottawa, process, and then come back, and was told usually happens quicker than that if everything looks good. 

In some ways, the medical was a confidence booster as it shows to myself how much I evolved and improved over the years, especially in comparison to five years ago. It also further confirms that this point of my life is a good time to do this, a long with joining the CF considering how much as an organizational entity evolved and improved over the past decade. 

Now to get ready to go to find that optometrist place in Laval by metro and foot...


----------



## Robodad

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> That's odd that you were told Intelligence Operator was closed... it's a red trade (very undermanned) in the CF.....


The Int School (CFSMI) can only do two serials of QL5A at the moment.  That's 24 persons per serial.  The School has been tasked to double the production of QL5A for the next fiscal year.  Hopefully the School will be able to manage it.


----------



## mellian

Got my eyes totally checked out and from I can tell, will be marked as V2. Now I have annoying optical headache due to lack of iris control thanks to those drops...


----------



## mellian

Completed all of the medical stuff last week and submitted required papers yesterday. I was told the interview will happen after they get a response back from Ottawa, which on milnet average of five weeks and according to one medical staff at the RC, usually takes two weeks. Nothing wrong came up from medical, so should be fine, but may get delayed due that one thing for non-medical reasons.


----------



## Larkvall

mellian said:
			
		

> Completed all of the medical stuff last week and submitted required papers yesterday. I was told the interview will happen after they get a response back from Ottawa, which on milnet average of five weeks and according to one medical staff at the RC, usually takes two weeks. Nothing wrong came up from medical, so should be fine, but may get delayed due that one thing for non-medical reasons.



There is a chance it might be longer than 5 weeks. I submitted my papers in late June and I am still waiting. Hopefully it doesn't take too long.


----------



## mellian

Still no word about the medical from Ottawa yet, and another two weeks at least before calling again. Meanwhile some kind of conflict of interest continues to go on in my over thinking mind. 

On one side, I would like to find out yes or no as soon as possible in regards to the application, at least an estimate. It is still something I would like to do, yet the waiting can be frustrating, especially when I am required to make decisions in terms of plans and commitments the end of the year and the new year. Such as figuring out whether I am going back to University this winter term, or re-new the lease or sign a new one, finding new homes for my cats, and etc.

On the other side, especially after some recent positive experiences, still some things I would to achieve with roller derby, and coming changes, I do not mind that the process is taking long, maybe at least until next spring or summer even. 

Yet, the concern is still the whole financial situation, and what the heck I will be doing beyond just derby. Depending on the occupation I get accepted in and where I am deployed, can still get back into roller derby with a nearby league or try to start one. 

Anyway, toured the frigate HMCS Ville de Quebec when it came to Montreal. Team picture with the big gun did not happen thought. :/


----------



## mellian

The more people have doubts about me, the more I would like to prove otherwise.


----------



## CallOfDuty

Hey there Mellian.  I just came across your posts and I have a couple of comments.  I've noticed with quite a few of the posters that they are choosing two or three completely DIFFERENT types of trades in the CF.  
  I see you are interested in ATIS.......and Armoured.......and navcomm??  I mean holy crap...do you want to be part of the airfoce world, do you want to be a combat soldier......or do you want to be a seaman?   I know so many guys who are in the army or navy....and say to me.....Jeeeez I wish I would have just went airforce!!!
   Not picking on you....but you seriously need to think about the culture of the elements and pick the one that mosts suits you.
Cheers and good luck!!!
Go airforce   ;D
steve


----------



## leroi

A civilian's  :2c:

mellian, you are a spirited lass!

I, for one, admire your tenacity for standing up for what you believe in as I witnessed today on another thread.

But, and I hope you don't mind me saying so, you might want to listen to the collective wisdom and voice of experience of the serving members who have gone before you down that path and consider where they're coming from. When you think of the unimaginable horror some of these guys and gals have witnessed, the sleepless nights and violent images they must carry with them--all in the name of peaceful protest then you will perhaps understand why it might prove difficult for some of them to see virtue in this form of civil action.

You seem to be an eloquent, thoughtful, young lady with leadership potential. Do you think your leadership skills could be better placed working for the defense of Canada, rather than by organizing protests which can easily turn pear shaped; which are often ineffective and are usually co-opted by protest-chasing anarchists and agent provocateurs?? 

This is a questions only you can answer. 

I couldn't do their job. I admit it. 

But I think you could. 

You go girl!!!


----------



## mellian

TangoHotel said:
			
		

> Not picking on you....but you seriously need to think about the culture of the elements and pick the one that mosts suits you.
> Cheers and good luck!!!
> Go airforce   ;D
> steve



Being in the air force element is my main interest, with ATIS or Aerospace Control base on interests and existing skills. That and use to be in the air cadets when I was younger, with thoughts of being a pilot which never happened and probably will not. Intelligence was under the Air element too. 

Armour pique's the interest of another aspect of me, of being more in the action. It is the same aspect that provided one of the motivations going into protests in the past, and roller derby at present. Yet there are concerns, by others mainly, that may not work out well for me due to another aspect of my life. Also not much to transfer back in the civilian side in terms of skills in comparison to a lot of non-combat trades.

Nav Comm I selected more out of the suggestion of the recruiter I submitted my application with, who is a partner of one my teammates. He is in the navy himself, and says I would be better suited, in part because another aspect of my life. Apart from that, I am dubious about being out at sea. Much rather be in a space navy than a wet one, but we do not have one of those yet.  

In general, in any employment or even volunteer position, I prefer diversity, balance of the physical and intellect, and being on the move and hands on more than than sitting around. That, a long with a sense of purpose, being productive, and making a difference.

I intend to bring it up at the Interview, ask maybe what my aptitude results suggest. My mind and interests is all over the place in terms of what I would like to do.


----------



## mellian

Yesterday I stated I have no plans to be involved or attend any protests for at least the near future. What happens? I find out today that Former President Bush is scheduled to come to Montreal October 22nd. That is frustratingly annoying.


----------



## vonGarvin

mellian said:
			
		

> Yesterday I stated I have no plans to be involved or attend any protests for at least the near future. What happens? I find out today that Former President Bush is scheduled to come to Montreal October 22nd. That is frustratingly annoying.


Now, perhaps this is a bit of this:
 :stirpot:

However...
What or why on God's green Earth would you even protest his visit?  What would you attempt to achieve?  What would your aim be?  In other words, what would make you walk away from the protest saying "we achieved our goal?"

Would it make you satisfied if he left or even cancelled his visit?  Are you protesting his visit to Canada?  Or is he going to Montreal to speak?  If so, are you opposed to him speaking?  

I get it that you didn’t like him as President of the USA.  I get that he was not the most popular president in history.  But, truth be told, Al Qaeda didn’t like him much either.  And please, don’t even start saying that he is (was?) a war criminal, fascist or anything like that.  

As stated elsewhere, protests are usually not that effective.  Start a petition and have it published, or send it to government.  But I caution you, if you don’t want him to come and speak because you don’t like what he has to say, I can only say “get over it”.  We live in a country that has as one of its most cherished traits Free Speech.  That includes G.W. Bush, Barack Obama and even Gilles Duceppe.  

If someone were coming whom I felt was “unsavoury”, then I would most likely let them speak, so that others could see how stupid they really are.

But that’s just me.


----------



## Jungle

mellian said:
			
		

> Yesterday I stated I have no plans to be involved or attend any protests for at least the near future. What happens? I find out today that Former President Bush is scheduled to come to Montreal October 22nd. That is frustratingly annoying.



YOU GO GIRL !! Surely, this time he will care for what you and your friends have to say...  :


----------



## CallOfDuty

Hey.  I hear you about being interested in many things, but not quite sure about what you want to do.  Trust me, there are lots of people who are years into their trades, and feel the same way.
   So you seem to be leaning towards airforce.  Have you ever heard of AES OP?  NCM..aircrew.....spec pay...travel.  A chance to go to sea, but not as a sailor.  Seems like a really great go.  What about aircraft maintenance??
  Just a couple of ideas.  Cheers!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

*No more of the protest horseshit. It's not what the thread is about and will garner warnings if it continues.

Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Nauticus

Although I think there are much less-childish ways to say it, I agree with recceguy. The other thread had enough talk about _that_, this thread doesn't need more.

Back to the thread at hand, what do you feel you'll accomplish by going Armour? I hope it isn't just to get into the CF, because you'll spend a lot of time doing it. Just my two cents, but based on some of your previous comments, I think you should consider if you would be able to immediately follow through with someone else's order, without necessarily considering the repercussions first. That sort of hesitation may not be beneficial to an armored troop.


----------



## mellian

TangoHotel said:
			
		

> So you seem to be leaning towards airforce.  Have you ever heard of AES OP?  NCM..aircrew.....spec pay...travel.  A chance to go to sea, but not as a sailor.  Seems like a really great go.  What about aircraft maintenance??
> Just a couple of ideas.  Cheers!



I heard about it, but not as AES. Seems like another option. 




			
				Nauticus said:
			
		

> Back to the thread at hand, what do you feel you'll accomplish by going Armour? I hope it isn't just to get into the CF, because you'll spend a lot of time doing it.



What can I accomplish with Armour, or any other occupations? As I said about my interest about Armour, base more out of action pace, of being there. Would not be my first choice anyways.



> Just my two cents, but based on some of your previous comments, I think you should consider if you would be able to immediately follow through with someone else's order, without necessarily considering the repercussions first. That sort of hesitation may not be beneficial to an armored troop.



I believe I can.


----------



## X-mo-1979

Well something you should also be considering is that you will not be able to get a pension till your a 51 year old woman as well.Not to mention Armd offers no civilian equivalent.As well it is a very busy job with little to no schedule.You never can plan for anything from one week to the next.Trades that offer shift work however would fit into the roller derby stuff,as you could actually plan ahead more so than being a tpr cpl in the Armd getting sent to every less than stellar place at a drop of a hat.
And if you decide on ARMD I would suggest LDSH(RC);good regiment.


----------



## mellian

It is basically why I do not consider Armour as the top choices. Most I can do right now is think about it some more as I wait for the medical. It will be five weeks tomorrow.


----------



## armyvern

Vern:

Sitting here contemplating whether or not "Roller Derby" (as a habit) is actually on the approved list of CF sports ... & thinking it's not (& if it isn't whether or not the CoC would even authorize one to participate in said activity - not that I actually ever looked for it on there, but I wasn't allowed to play football for the Lady Gladiators (<--- times when various of my whips may have yielded wee bits 'o fun).


----------



## mellian

I can always ask around in the derby community if there is any derby girls in the CF, and see if they got approval or not.


----------



## Dean22

Midnight Rambler said:
			
		

> Now, perhaps this is a bit of this:
> :stirpot:
> 
> However...
> What or why on God's green Earth would you even protest his visit?  What would you attempt to achieve?  What would your aim be?  In other words, what would make you walk away from the protest saying "we achieved our goal?"
> 
> Would it make you satisfied if he left or even cancelled his visit?  Are you protesting his visit to Canada?  Or is he going to Montreal to speak?  If so, are you opposed to him speaking?
> 
> I get it that you didn’t like him as President of the USA.  I get that he was not the most popular president in history.  But, truth be told, Al Qaeda didn’t like him much either.  And please, don’t even start saying that he is (was?) a war criminal, fascist or anything like that.



I hope your kidding since his administration passed a bill making him and his administration gain immunity from war crime trials.

The interesting point raised from the debate is "are out of uniform CF personnel off duty allowed to express themselves freely?"

One side of the coin says they are representatives of their organization. The other side says that freedom of speech must be kept and that if a newscaster walks up to them and asks what they think of the Afghanistan war they should be allowed to speak their opinion regardless of being a member of the CF or not.


On to the main debate: I don't think it matters if she decides to pick three trades in three different elements at all.

Sure, I would have loved to apply as an armoured soldier, boatswain and AES op. They all seem like great jobs. AES op is exciting to me, so is boatswain and armoured. 

It's fine if people choose all three elements however, I chose not to and try out the military first in the army reserves since I figured this was the core of the Canadian forces.

I don't see why it matters if she isn't stuck to one element. It's called the Canadian Forces not the Canadian Army, Canadian Navy and Canadian Air Force in three separate organizations like the United States. Let her decide when she gets job offers for any of them instead of deciding before she is even offered a job. 

I would be guessing if she does get selected she'll be selected for Armoured soldier since it's a hot job.


----------



## mellian

Dean22 said:
			
		

> The interesting point raised from the debate is "are out of uniform CF personnel off duty allowed to express themselves freely?"



While technically, that should be the case, it still does not stop others from associating one to the CF and possibly give a negative reflection. If something is said that contradicts what many in CF feels and their views, that person not going to be all that popular, and possibly affect their career. One of those things I had to learn when working with some non-profit organizations and even the roller derby league I am in. 




> I would be guessing if she does get selected she'll be selected for Armoured soldier since it's a hot job.



So is Aerospace Control and ATIS Tech...according to the website anyway. Not always representative to actual present number of openings.


----------



## mellian

I received a call this morning to schedule a time to come in to the RC to answer some questions, now that my medical as been done. I am guessing that this may be the interview, but the word interview was not used. If it is just questions for the medical, I will be a bit put off knowing what they may be related to. Whatever the case, makes me happy and good way to start the day. 

Amusing thing is the timing. I was dreaming about being in uniform at training, and something happened that I feel bad about, like something happening to another recruit. We were waiting for the police to come investigate why I was taking responsibility for part of whatever happened. Then I got woke up by the call. I think I watch to much NCIS...


----------



## Dean22

mellian said:
			
		

> I received a call this morning to schedule a time to come in to the RC to answer some questions, now that my medical as been done. I am guessing that this may be the interview, but the word interview was not used. If it is just questions for the medical, I will be a bit put off knowing what they may be related to. Whatever the case, makes me happy and good way to start the day.
> 
> Amusing thing is the timing. I was dreaming about being in uniform at training, and something happened that I feel bad about, like something happening to another recruit. We were waiting for the police to come investigate why I was taking responsibility for part of whatever happened. Then I got woke up by the call. I think I watch to much NCIS...



The person used the word "questions"? If it was me I would be worried even if it was just nothing. If it's the interview good luck I hear the regulars interview is 2-3 hours (Study the trades you picked and remember what they do in the interview).


----------



## mellian

Dean22 said:
			
		

> The person used the word "questions"? If it was me I would be worried even if it was just nothing. If it's the interview good luck I hear the regulars interview is 2-3 hours (Study the trades you picked and remember what they do in the interview).



Yes, 'some quality questions' to be exact I think. They always call when I am sleeping in, so my brain may not have been fully booted up.


----------



## mellian

So not an interview. It was quality control questions in regards to the medical.


----------



## mellian

Posting on message boards online is not the same as how one is in person, let alone how they will be like during BMQ.


----------



## mariomike

You are "high spirited". Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Michael OLeary

mellian said:
			
		

> So not an interview. It was quality control questions in regards to the medical.



Demonstrating that too many people are over-thinking the recruiting process.



			
				mellian said:
			
		

> Posting on message boards online is not the same as how one is in person, let alone how they will be like during BMQ.



Posting on message boards is often very close to how people really are, but may not match how they present themselves in public.   Anonymity releases people to be themselves on line, even when they don't recognize themselves in their own comments.


----------



## mellian

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Posting on message boards is often very close to how people really are, but may not match how they present themselves in public.   Anonymity releases people to be themselves on line, even when they don't recognize themselves in their own comments.



That may be true to some extent, but the context is not the same.


----------



## gcclarke

Obligatory Penny-Arcade comic posting (Link does contain rude language if that's an issue): http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/


----------



## X-mo-1979

mellian said:
			
		

> That may be true to some extent, but the context is not the same.


LMFAO!
Do you agree with anything anyone say's besides yourself?



			
				gcclarke said:
			
		

> Obligatory Penny-Arcade comic posting (Link does contain rude language if that's an issue): http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/



Nice one!


----------



## mellian

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> LMFAO!
> Do you agree with anything anyone say's besides yourself?



Yes.


----------



## mellian

Yes


----------



## George Wallace

mellian said:
			
		

> I am placed in this box and archetype, and no matter what I say, even if I openly agree or just shut up or follow what I am told, I am forever seen as such from then on. Just saying.



If you recognize this, what have you learned from it?  Perhaps it may be an indicator that you may want to seriously reevaluate your perception of events happening around you and the logic you use to develop your concept of how things operate in society.


----------



## mellian

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If you recognize this, what have you learned from it?  Perhaps it may be an indicator that you may want to seriously reevaluate your perception of events happening around you and the logic you use to develop your concept of how things operate in society.



For the pass hour and when I wrote that, I was thinking how I approach a discussion and how I am perceived as a result, and the differences and perceptions of how I approach a discussion in person, offline. I am told to do this or that, yet I thought I have while I have the perception that they haven't themselves, so who is right or wrong, or both right or wrong in these perceptions. Same subject, in different areas of the internet, yet same general result despite contexts and expressing different perspectives. 

That is where my head was when I wrote that. Yet you understood as meaning something different, on how I see and understand the world. 

I am over thinking this.


----------



## George Wallace

mellian said:
			
		

> For the pass hour and when I wrote that, I was thinking how I approach a discussion and how I am perceived as a result, and the differences and perceptions of how I approach a discussion in person, offline. I am told to do this or that, yet I thought I have while I have the perception that they haven't themselves, so who is right or wrong, or both right or wrong in these perceptions. Same subject, in different areas of the internet, yet same general result despite contexts and expressing different perspectives.
> 
> That is where my head was when I wrote that. Yet you understood as meaning something different, on how I see and understand the world.
> 
> I am over thinking this.



Apparently, yes.


----------



## X-mo-1979

mellian said:
			
		

> For the pass hour and when I wrote that, I was thinking how I approach a discussion and how I am perceived as a result,



Every discussion you have been in has been picking a cause and even though your proven wrong you just continue and continue.If it wasn't from a MOD locking that dragqueen thread you would still be there fighting for transsexual rights.And then to top it all off a transgendered person comes on and DISAGREE's with you.

And from what I have seen of your discussions, I think if it wasn't locked you would be fighting with the tranny about the subject.

Taking a firm stance on certain subjects is fine, I have and will.However half the time your talking about the military and you have zero experience in anything.I noticed your age at 25 and I was surprised.I had figured you for a 18 year old by your rhetoric.Keep in mind many members here had 7-8 years punched in the service by the time they were 25.Seeing you were in your mid twenties surprised me.

Why not try and stick to discussing what you know for a while.You have been shot down by male's,females,and transgendered people on the site so far!


----------



## mellian

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Every discussion you have been in has been picking a cause and even though your proven wrong you just continue and continue.If it wasn't from a MOD locking that dragqueen thread you would still be there fighting for transsexual rights.And then to top it all off a transgendered person comes on and DISAGREE's with you.



From my understanding and perception of the discussion, I was talking about one thing which gets misunderstood and taken as something else despite trying to be clearer, and then question points or arguments which I perceived as incorrect or presumptuous. I am trying to have a civil discussion, and I am perceived to be some kind of troll instead. As for Radargrrl, she did not write anything that contradicts what I said, from my perception and understanding.




> Why not try and stick to discussing what you know for a while.You have been shot down by male's,females,and transgendered people on the site so far!



That is what I thought I was doing. I know about protesting I have done it and been there, and tried introduce a perspective. I know about trans stuff because I have been involved with trans activism and from my own experiences, hence the specific question I started the discussion with which got somewhat derailed with the article. I do not go on about something I have no absolute nothing about or lacking of apart from asking questions to learn. 

Is it not possible many of you automatically perceive me as one thing just because I am not in CF (yet hopefully) and my age, and because I touched on controversial topics which in turn colors perceptions of anything I say afterward?

Someone mentioned to me yesterday could be because I do not do enough acknowledging of other viewpoints and virtual nodding and uh uhs, hence people feel I am not listening...which I also feel myself at times, hence more posts in attempt to clarify.


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> Is it not possible many of you automatically perceive me as one thing just because I am not in CF (yet hopefully) and my age, and because I touched on controversial topics which in turn colors perceptions of anything I say afterward?



Ah, i see. It is everyone else's fault but yours right ?

Its not about being in the CF or not. You keep acting like you are now when ( and if) you get into the forces and you will get the same response, no matter what the subject.

Get off your high horse, you are nothing special. You are not smarter than everyone else.

As i told you before, you are behaving like my 14-year old kid.


----------



## mellian

No. Not what I meant. Never claim to be. If you say so.


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> No. Not what I meant. Never claim to be. If you say so.



Let me leave you with one more thought :

If you are being misunderstood by everyone, it is not their fault. It is yours.

To be frank, it seems to me that you are more suited for a career as a professional crusader than public service.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Everyone back in their corners..............

Bruce


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Enough.

Locked

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Loachman

_*My apologies for posting through the lock.*_

Well, I do not fully understand, but that is not necessarily Mellian's fault. This is, in case anybody's forgotten or was never aware in the first place, a pretty poor method of communication, and no method of communication is really much better.

We've seen people here in violent agreement with each other at times, not realizing that they were saying exactly the same thing, using slightly different words, and continue the argument to a lock.

I do not find it surprising, then, when people with different backgrounds and experiences and viewpoints from the majority of site members have a little more trouble being understood/making themselves understood.

I have no problem with that, or the "unique" poster his/herself, so long as the discussion/argument is cordial and respectful.

I do not know what Mellian is really like based upon her posts. Sometimes I find it easy to judge somebody (although I might be wrong occasionally), but not so much this time. Bafflement piques my interest, as I am usually drawn to the unconventional and that which, to me, is novel and not-yet-understood. Perhaps, if "lefties" find her too right-wingy as she has said, and we find her too lefty, she is not so far out-of-balance as those on either side seem to think.

I await her posts after she has spent some time in and shared some of our experiences.

She has certainly generated some interesting, if not necessarily conventional (for this site) or comfortable (for some people), discussion and I see that as beneficial to all, at least those with open minds.

I do not see "the tranny" (and I hope that the earlier use of that term here was not intended to be as disrespectful and dismissive as it seemed), aka RadarGrrl, as disagreeing with Mellian substantially. She said "I can understand why one can't join up while mid-transition.  If you're transitioning, you're placed on TCat, therefore can't train.  So why bring on somebody they can't train?  However, there are a few grey areas here". That looks more like a clarification than a contradiction to me.

It is indeed a grey area. Transexuals are still a new experience for the CF and, given the number, will not fully be understood for some time to come. The CF is bound by Canadian law and, until that changes to better reflect the reality of their needs and realities, and balance those with society's needs and realities, there is little choice at present. Clear, all-encompassing, CF policy is unlikely to appear soon either, given the complexities. I suspect that individual cases are being individually assessed on their own merits for now, and that is the best that we can achieve today. We certainly cannot presume that a given person going through this is a suitable candidate just because they have reached a certain point in the physical process. We cannot afford to, as we deal with harsh realities on a daily basis. I am a big believer in individual rights, but "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", to quote a certain Vulcan, apply here.

I will freely admit that I am uncomfortable with the concepts of sex-change and male homosexuality, and that is unlikely to change. That does not prevent me from trying to understand better, or treat these people as they deserve.

Regardless, despite the controversial nature of Mellian's preferred topics, the discussion and argument seems to remain within the bounds of civility - thank-you Mellian and everybody else.


----------



## mellian

I found out today that my file was sent to Ottawa two weeks ago, so it spent six weeks staying at here in Montreal. At least it is not being delayed for other reasons, and now restarting the waiting time clock to two weeks. Average time of response I have been told is five weeks, so we will see by next month.


----------



## vonGarvin

Good luck, mellian.  Hope it works out for you.


----------



## helpup

Good luck mel.


----------



## mellian

Still no word yet about the medical, despite being five weeks now since it was actually sent to Ottawa, and may be some months yet being December and all. I will try calling Monday to get an update. 

While looking for other work as the present part-time employment will not be suffice to fulfill financial requirements, the series of thought as what I will be doing with my life and career as return. About the same time as last year too when I decided to apply for the CF. 

Also not sure what I could do or offer, as it feels like now at 26, I have nothing to show that truly counts. Probably lack of self-confidence talking, about but I just do not what I can do contribute. So far, all of the employments I ever had is just a means to provide income that is required to survive. To continue going on that path feels wasteful, and pointless. 

So looking around for something that I can do, yet different, and then see if I am qualified for it...as alternatives in case I do not get merit listed, and also until then too. I would something where I can make a difference, and that is beneficial beyond bureaucracy and help make money for someone or company, something more direct. Most of my experience and skills is technical and volunteer/non-profit organizations. Something I can feel competent, confident, and ambitious for.

Possibilities I am looking into is Canadian Border Services Agency, Nav Canada, Security work, and similar.


----------



## mariomike

Thank you for the update, Mellian.  I hope you get a job offer from the CF. It will turn your life around, and your family will be very proud of you in uniform!


----------



## Antoine

Stay fit, keep focus and don't give up. Keep positive and keep your finger cross. Anyway, looking at other options is never a bad idea but I hope you'll get where you would like to go.


----------



## armychick2009

Your experience as a 26 year old is not an uncommon one - transgendered or not. Here I am, 31 years old and still trying to find the right job for me. I had to leave my "good" job four years ago and my jobs since then have been to merely pay the bills and live, as you said. 

If you really want to join the army -- keep at it. If your medical says (for whatever reason) you can't do it, work at rectifying it through the appeals processes. If it means you need to set aside your personal life goals in order to obtain a lifelong dream of being in the army, then maybe it's what you need to do.

To give you an example, I'm setting aside my personal  life (dating/having a family) in order to join the forces. I've given up a lot the past six months, to join the forces. I've also gained a lot in the past six months, to join the forces.

I've also learned to "not settle". If you really want this, do what you need to do in order to get there. I know a lot of the debate before was revolving around the timing of transitioning, etc. That's up to you to decide, it's a personal choice. It's not much different than me wanting to start a family... it takes a while to do, can offset when you can/can't join but - it's a decision you need to make

I hope your medical clears. I hope you get to where you need to go. The army is full of all kinds of people  Both sexes, all sizes, all backgrounds, etc. You will get there, it's just a matter of "when". 

Like anyone not cleared medically, you just have to work on whatever the medical "issue" is... for some, it's making sure old injuries are taken care of (which was my case). 

Good luck with everything


----------



## mellian

Thank you armychick2009! 

I called the RC earlier and stated they are still waiting. They thought it was odd that it is taking this long to get a response from Ottawa, guessing maybe it is the extra air force requirements. So they will send off an email to find out what is holding it up.


----------



## mellian

I finally received a response from medical...and they are requesting for information I thought I already provided and even offered to provide originally. Medical staff already left for the day, so will have to wait until tomorrow to call them and ask specifically what they need. Alternatively, I can send everything that covers every single aspect of it legally, medically, and liability wise, which may risk swamping them with stuff they do not need/request.


----------



## mellian

Since the supervisors/bosses of medical section are gone for the holidays, I will have to wait until January 4th as the RC still waiting for the return of my medical file, hence cannot answer my questions. It did get noted by the person I spoken to that they found it odd I would receive a letter and delayed when according to everything she did have, I am fit. Indeed, until after the holidays and more waiting...


----------



## armychick2009

I wouldn't send anything more than what they ask. Any extra stuff, could just create more "stuff", which I don't think you really want. 

Wait until the holidays are over, enjoy this time and start the new year fresh


----------



## mellian

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't send anything more than what they ask. Any extra stuff, could just create more "stuff", which I don't think you really want.



True, but feel like I need to educate, and that while I prove with documents (As I am unable any other way until BMQ) that I am fit in every way (body and mind) they should prove why I am not as we start delving more into the politics than the medical.  



> Wait until the holidays are over, enjoy this time and start the new year fresh



Will do.


----------



## aesop081

mellian said:
			
		

> as we start delving more into the politics than the medical.



Yes because there is obviously some great conspiracy within DND to keep you out.

Shame.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

mellian said:
			
		

> they should prove why I am not



"They" [a POTENTIAL employer] have no such obligation......



			
				mellian said:
			
		

> as we start delving more into the politics than the medical.



And in reference to your "Report" I believe CDN Aviator's response is warrented  in regards to the "politics" line you dropped.

If I may offer some advice here, [and I'm serious] the world does not stay up at night trying to decide on how we are going to screw Mellian over the next day.


----------



## Franko

mellian said:
			
		

> True, but feel like I need to educate, and that while I prove with documents (As I am unable any other way until BMQ) that I am fit in every way (body and mind) they should prove why I am not as we start delving more into the politics than the medical.



*mod mode*

I've just read your report and the current issue you have. 

There is no dog pile here, nor will there be one. No one has misconstrued what you've posted.

If you feel the urge to reply, feel free to do so.

*/Army.ca mod mode*



Now for my own take on this situation.

You will be processed through the CFRC in due course and not one moment sooner, regardless of your age, gender, race, religious background etc, just like everyone else. 

If it means that they have to pull your medical records officially or wait until an MO puts his blessings on it, so be it.

*You are not special *and I'm sure there are literally dozens of _*potential*_ recruits, such as yourself, going through the same thing. 

The CF has a tendency to be a slow, lethargic beast at times...you might as well get used to it now.

Be patient. 

Regards


----------



## vonGarvin

Given that mellian is quebecoise, I suspect that her mother tongue is french.  "Politics" may simply be a poor translation of "politique", or "policy".  So, we may be delving more into the policies than the medical sounds more likely.


But, if she means "politics" in the anglo-saxon sense of the word, then yes, the conspiracy is on.


----------



## mellian

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Given that mellian is quebecoise, I suspect that her mother tongue is french.  "Politics" may simply be a poor translation of "politique", or "policy".  So, we may be delving more into the policies than the medical sounds more likely.



Yes, that is the context that I was using it in. I am bilingual and certain expressions and meanings get mixed in from one language to another, especially living in Montreal and job hunting in french.


----------



## mellian

Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
			
		

> *You are not special *and I'm sure there are literally dozens of _*potential*_ recruits, such as yourself, going through the same thing.



Actually, problem I am facing with medical is to prove that I am *not* special and that I can make the requirements of the CF like everyone that get accepted. 

Literally dozens? In my exact or similar gray area circumstances that is applying or has applied to the CF? It would be awesome to see the numbers, as would require a policy to be in place for sure.


----------



## Franko

mellian said:
			
		

> Literally dozens? In my exact or similar gray area circumstances that is applying or has applied to the CF? It would be awesome to see the numbers, as would require a policy to be in place for sure.



I was speculating....hence the "I'm sure...".

Seeing as there are literally hundreds of potential recruits trying to get in I'd surmise that there would be some very similar cases as your own pending approval.

It's a paperwork thing. Shit happens.

Regards


----------



## mellian

To be clear:

- *I am not special* and never claimed to be, nor do I seek any special treatment or to become a special case. It is quite the opposite, I expect and seek to be seen, treated and considered equally like everyone else under the same rules and policies, hence pushing and fighting for _not being special_ in anyway.

- If I get denied under medical, I would like to have to be something clear cut like failing ECG, blood work, fitness and other present requirements (which all would prove why I would not be approved). Not a slippery slope or social or some other non-medical related or non-fitness related reason (which would not prove why I would not be approved), especially if there is no clear-cut policy or standards or procedure on the subject for whatever reason and that as already been legally covered provincially and federally requirements. If it becomes the latter, than I will use provided processes to appeal until such a time a clear-cut reason like former is provided why I would not be approved or they stop being treated as special and by other procedures or rules not used with the rest of the applicants.

- My responsibility now is to prove why I am not special to medical via documentation Ottawa ask for and possibly may not ask for depending on what they ask for when I inquire with medical at the Montreal RC after holidays who already signed me off as fit and asked for some signed documents which Ottawa is asking for again.

- No one or organization or institution owes me anything. 

- Everything _*I actually personally do or say*_ is always my fault and responsibility.

- This is a public message board and not the CF as per milnet.ca guidelines. 

- Not commenting on this further until I have further updates after the holidays, so now off to take some hours off from this.

edit: This message board is too slow for quick edits...


----------



## Fishbone Jones

See, that's the thing with the 'Report to Mod' button. We all get to see it, including your little snit about me closing your thread. Please carry on. You're only justifying my previous decisions. From now on, if you have a problem with the way I do my job, take it up with the site owner.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Loachman

There are some fairly unique aspects to Mellian's application, and that is all that I will say.

Her expectations and frustrations may not be "special" in magnitude, but they are valid nonetheless.


----------



## mellian

I called the medical section of the RC a hour ago. They were not able to completely confirm what they are requesting as they agreed the letter is a bit vague, but said will take whatever I have and send it off again to Ottawa to see if it fulfills their info request which in the end really legal confirmation than medical. 

Beyond that, I have been chosen for my roller derby league's A-Travel Team where I will get to play at higher competitive level. After the experiences of 2009 travel bouts and the WFTDA National champions winning more out of pure endurance, we are also stepping up our own practice discipline and endurance drills. 3-4 km worth of laps in 10 minutes, suicides, pyramids, more push ups/situps, and so on, 2010 is going to be a great derby year. Hence now feeling less impatient presently about the medical delay, hoping to sport the neon colors (we like to obnoxiously blind our opponents) and play several bouts before possibly heading off to BMQ. Now that I have a stopwatch, can start doing proper derby version of Tabitha training as well.


----------



## mellian

I received two calls after I woke up for the day, one after the other. The first is confirmation I will get a letter by the end of the month to reinforce the medical side. The second is from the Sergeant I spoke to on the phone the other day. She called Ottawa to get clarifications on the letter for me. As I thought, this will be more of a legal and policy issue than medical, so the information I will provide will focus on that. At least the RC is willing to send the file again to Ottawa with the new information. I may write a letter to summarize the information I will provide, as well quote some of the medical policy that was given to me as part of the medical process. There is no way I am falling in the damn crack.


----------



## mellian

I spent the last several hours reading up on the Canadian Forces Medical Standards (http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pd/default-eng.asp) and some of the references (the links that work anyway and could find on google). I also tried to find appeal process info in case they refuse still with the next batch of information I will be providing, but yet to find anything on that even on milnet (with the search and google, with variety of terms and conditions). 

The Standards are there for a reason for sure, but the reason they 'temporary refused until further information is provided'  is not specifically listed like myriad of others medical stuff they consider limitations, and the part where it is applicable is left generally empty and references a medical guide. Not a law or policy, but a guide. According to this guide, which the letters from some doctors I already provided and will provide, and life experiences of last decade, I am not suffering from it (at least not anymore) and the treatment listed are optional which they referenced from the letter and when I got more info is not required nor exclusively the only treatment. 

Since I already long fulfilled requires of that guide and legal requirements, hence no present limitations from it and no legal liability concerns...I am not special nor a special case, and should be considered and treated like any other applicants. Since apart from that, the RC said I made all other medical requirements within the Standards, really no grounds standards and policy wise to be disqualified from joining (unless they find something else or/and proves that obstacle somehow does pose some kind of actual medical limitation that has no thing to do with personal opinion or social as per the Medical Standards).

So yes...I am presently hyper and felt like writing what I found mainly so others the similar or same circumstances as me that come to Milnet  can find it and possibly help with their application process.


----------



## Loachman

You are not the first in your particular situation s you know, but your case is still unique enough that it is likely going to take a fair amount to convince some of the people who need to be convinced that, unique as it is, it is not too "special" a case, nor such that will constitute a real problem.

This is a very conservative (not in the political sense in this context) organization, and for good reasons.

You will still need to be patient.

While you wait, prepare for the appeal as you seem to be doing.

Good luck.


----------



## mellian

Yes, patient I will have to be. I will not appeal until after they decide to with the new information. CF needs to a clear-cut rule and not having one on this matter goes against the very conservative nature of the CF.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I still amazed at how folks just assume that potential employers owe them something........


----------



## Loachman

mellian said:
			
		

> CF needs to a clear-cut rule and not having one on this matter goes against the very conservative nature of the CF.



No, I think that it's the best that we can do at this point, with so little experience to go on.

Evaluating each individual is a lot better, I think, than the former clear-cut rule ("no") that preceded it.


----------



## mellian

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I still amazed at how folks just assume that potential employers owe them something........



I am still amazed folks still think I believe potential employers owe me anything.


----------



## Larkvall

mellian said:
			
		

> I am still amazed folks still think I believe potential employers owe me anything.



By stating that the CF needs a clear cut rule it implies that you feel you should already received an answer by now.


----------



## mellian

Larkvall said:
			
		

> By stating that the CF needs a clear cut rule it implies that you feel you should already received an answer by now.



What is wrong with adding another rule in the Medical Standards to make another group of people as not special? That is not a feeling of entitlement, it is something that makes sense to have and cut down on unnecessary back and forth bureaucracy.   

If they had, the Sergeant that gave me the medical would know exactly what to check and ask for instead of needing to call someone in Ottawa, and still miss out on information I would have provided then instead of later this month.


----------



## Loachman

Wanting a clear policy is not unreasonable.

I just don't think that it is achievable yet.

There was a clear policy a few years ago, as I said, and the answer was immediate - a simple "no".

What we have now is actually progress.

Women went through a similar period, as did gays, and visible minorities. They are all accepted now.


----------



## George Wallace

mellian said:
			
		

> If they had, the Sergeant that gave me the medical would know exactly what to check and ask for instead of needing to call someone in Ottawa, and still miss out on information I would have provided then instead of later this month.



A Sergeant is not the final authority.  A Doctor would be.  That is why someone (a Doctor) in Ottawa is making a decision.


----------



## aesop081

Loachman said:
			
		

> Wanting a clear policy is not unreasonable.



You are quite correct. I agree with mellian on this point. That being said, there is none at this time but there is a process to go through to have the situation looked at in the abscence of clear-cut regulation.

Provide what they want, jump through the hoops and quit bitchin' about all the way through.


----------



## mellian

George Wallace said:
			
		

> A Sergeant is not the final authority.  A Doctor would be.  That is why someone (a Doctor) in Ottawa is making a decision.



Yes, and they made decision on information they did not have because there was no policy to tell the Sergeant what to ask of me. Hence, me providing that information now in January instead of back in September for that Doctor to make a decision with. 



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Provide what they want, jump through the hoops and quit bitchin' about all the way through.



Yes sir.


----------



## Dean22

One thing that sucks with the CF is the amount of information that's clear and the amount of information that's available publicly.

For example, there's a 50+ page debate on the use of CF uniforms on these boards just because no one has bothered to clearly outline the policy and procedure on a public outlet.

I think the CF should add as much as they can to the web and have it accessible to the public like our comrades to the south. 

If I wanted to find out how the U.S. military promotion system worked with T.I.G., education points, duty points, etc etc etc I could find the approximate date of promotion for an individual in that military. I could also find out how many squares of toilet paper you are issued depending on your ***hole size. Hell, I could even find out how many hot sauce packets you would get in a MRE.

If I want to find what jobs are available in the CF, what jobs are in demand, and what jobs had signing bonuses I would be **** out of luck. If I wanted to find out what the levels were in the CF shuttle run was you would be told by CFRC that they have no idea or you would be told online "you'll find out when you do the shuttle run".


Someone needs to increase the amount of information from the CF by tenfold and make it available easily to the public.

Mellian's case is just another case in point.


----------



## Loachman

Dean22 said:
			
		

> Someone needs to increase the amount of information from the CF by tenfold and make it available easily to the public.



Someone, then, needs to pay for it.

Putting stuff online and keeping it current takes time, effort, and money, and there is little enough of that as it is.

Whoever they hire to do it could quite likely be the guy that they hire instead of you.



			
				Dean22 said:
			
		

> Mellian's case is just another case in point.



No, it isn't.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I got through the recruiting process fine back as a naive 17 year old when the internet and all it's information was just a gleam in somebody's eye.

Anyone else?                       Yup, that's what I thought, a cast of thousands, man we must have been good. :king:


----------



## Otis

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> man we must have been good. :king:



Or maybe less used to having information handed to us on a platter?


----------



## aesop081

Dean22 said:
			
		

> One thing that sucks with the CF is .........



The number of people with 6 minutes or less in the service who think and act like they know it all.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Loachman said:
			
		

> Putting stuff online and keeping it current takes time, effort, and money, and there is little enough of that as it is.



Well, considering they already keep stuff up to date on the DIN side of things, I don't see how much harder it would be to make the same regs/docs available on the Internet.  

Mind you, it's sometimes hard to find updated stuff on the DIN...


----------



## aesop081

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Well, considering they already keep stuff up to date on the DIN side of things,



lmfao.....theres more broken links and outdated pages on the DIN thatn on the entire internet. Shit, its even worse on AFCCIS.


----------



## SupersonicMax

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> lmfao.....theres more broken links and outdated pages on the DIN thatn on the entire internet.



Hence the second part of my comment.  



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Shit, its even worse on AFCCIS.



CSNI you mean?


----------



## aesop081

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> CSNI you mean?



Sorry, i cant keep up with the changes anymore. I still live in a world where O groups were done face to face and when you wanted to read routine orders, you looked for a flip file on a wall somehwere.

...and the sticker on my computer still says AFCCIS


----------



## Occam

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> CSNI you mean?



Not all the Wings are migrated yet, although I'm pretty sure CDN Aviator's is completed.  We can only break things so quickly.   >


----------



## mellian

Gathered the information and dropped at medical a hour ago. I may get a call from them tomorrow, or me call to confirm, and then ship it off to Ottawa. Another 5+ weeks begins...


----------



## Loachman

Good luck.


----------



## mellian

Thank you! I really hope they accept the information. As I told the recruiter whom I filed my application originally with, I do not want to cause any trouble, just to be considered fairly.


----------



## mellian

Wow, I got an email from Chief Military Personnel in response to an inquiry I made several months ago. It provided clarification on the CEMS and how it is applicable to my circumstances. Still case by case, but way more confident that I will make the CEMS...which I am like 2 weeks ongoing since submitting latest info. They also confirmed that a general standard policy is in the works.


----------



## mellian

I went to the CFRC last week to update my address as I moved for the fourth time in two years, and also got an update. Ottawa received the latest info I sent, and now I am waiting for their response. By that point, it will be April or later.

A long with moving, got selected into my league's A travel team and played my three first official bouts this past weekend, helping win against Connecticut, DC, and Suburbia (somewhere new york).  The DC game was at a National Guard armory which was huge, even bigger than the hangar the air cadets was in when I was in it. It is awesome some derby leagues in the states I have arrangements to use military space. It was also the first derby game I played in that required metal detectors, lol. So yes, Montreal is leading the way for roller derby in Canada showing now only can we win the after party dance offs, but win bouts as well. 

Only mention of roller derby with the CF is the Winnipeg league using some pace at a base there, and my posts on milnet. 

The waiting continues...


----------



## mellian

Two CF-18s doing low flybys above downtown Montreal due the St-Patrick parade = tres awesome. Just saying.


----------



## mellian

I got a response from the RMO in Ottawa. In summary, we ignore everything you provided, including letters from Doctors more qualified than us on the issue and your legal status, and not approving until our archaic requirement, that is not stated in the medical standard or in any policy, is fulfilled. This is the same Major MD that responded last time. On top of that, he still does not explain why or how it is a medical limitation without fulfilling the requirement which as no effect on my performance apart from risking it in attempt to fulfill that requirement...and possibly of old age. They say I pass everything else medical wise, so how is this an issue?

Since this particular individual Major MD (as I am not blaming the CF for this) will not budge and there is no way presently to directly get in contact with them (apart from 5+ weeks turnaround), I will appeal and get someone else(s) to review as this not just medical concern.  

Present plan is to go to CFRC today, possibly talk with Medical and whoever about the next steps. Also will contact the CF ombudsman. 

I hate this.


----------



## PMedMoe

mellian said:
			
		

> I got a response from the RMO in Ottawa. In summary, we ignore everything you provided, including letters from Doctors more qualified than us on the issue and your legal status, and not approving until our archaic requirement, that is not stated in the medical standard or in any policy, is fulfilled. This is the same Major MD that responded last time. On top of that, he still does not explain why or how it is a medical limitation without fulfilling the requirement which as no effect on my performance apart from risking it in attempt to fulfill that requirement...and possibly of old age. They say I pass everything else medical wise, so how is this an issue?
> 
> Since this particular individual Major MD (as I am not blaming the CF for this) will not budge and there is no way presently to directly get in contact with them (apart from 5+ weeks turnaround), I will appeal and get someone else(s) to review as this not just medical concern.
> 
> Present plan is to go to CFRC today, possibly talk with Medical and whoever about the next steps. Also will contact the CF ombudsman.
> 
> I hate this.


No offense, but what did you expect?  Just because it's not specifically stated in the standards or policy, doesn't mean it's not an issue.  Just one they never thought of when the standard/policy was written.  As I said before, if you're _physically_ one gender, how can you _legally_ be another?


----------



## vonGarvin

Is _that_ what this is about?  A chick wanting to be a dude, or vice versa?  :
(My dogs makes purring sounds at times and is smaller than my cat.  Does this mean I have two cats?)

I thought maybe this had something to do with a medical condition that had passed, but the system was slow in recognising that fact...


----------



## mellian

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> No offense, but what did you expect?  Just because it's not specifically stated in the standards or policy, doesn't mean it's not an issue.  Just one they never thought of when the standard/policy was written.  As I said before, if you're _physically_ one gender, how can you _legally_ be another?



If one is physically both, how can one legally be both? Bureaucratic solution: assign one until they prove otherwise. 

I proved otherwise, my birth province granted the legal change, and now that legal change permeates everything that is legal, and thus far never been an issue. This covers any "human resource and logistics management for military training, operations and workplace personnel issues", including the fact I act, walk, talk, and live as such since I was a teenager to the point that if I did not reveal my entire medical history as required I could quite possibly be set for BMQ by now (yet probably get in trouble later at a more in-depth medical check up). 

Beyond that, just the fact CF allow women to apply for all positions in the CF proves what one has between the legs is a non-issue. So if I am legally female, then how is that any different?


----------



## PMedMoe

mellian said:
			
		

> If one is physically both, how can one legally be both? Bureaucratic solution: assign one until they prove otherwise.
> 
> I proved otherwise, my birth province granted the legal change, and now that legal change permeates everything that is legal, and thus far never been an issue. This covers any "human resource and logistics management for military training, operations and workplace personnel issues", including the fact I act, walk, talk, and live as such since I was a teenager to the point that if I did not reveal my entire medical history as required I could quite possibly be set for BMQ by now (yet probably get in trouble later at a more in-depth medical check up).
> 
> Beyond that, just the fact CF allow women to apply for all positions in the CF proves what one has between the legs is a non-issue. So if I am legally female, then how is that any different?


Being born both genders is one thing, being in the midst of changing is quite another.

IMHO, the _legal_ part is not the issue. I suspect they're more concerned about the psychological issues, both for you and other recruits.  If they enrolled you as female, yet you have male physical "traits", where will you shower, use the bathroom, etc??  Unfortunately, as far as the CF goes, there are only two genders.  No in betweens.


----------



## vonGarvin

mellian said:
			
		

> If one is physically both, how can one legally be both?


I know this is going to get me banned, but....

XX and XY chromosomes?



			
				mellian said:
			
		

> Beyond that, just the fact CF allow women to apply for all positions in the CF proves what one has between the legs is a non-issue.


Oh, but it is.  There are varying physical fitness standards, with age and gender being variables for what standard you need to achieve.  And there are "male" accomodations and "female" accomodations.  And different dress standards.  The list goes on.


----------



## mellian

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Being born both genders is one thing, being in the midst of changing is quite another.
> 
> IMHO, the _legal_ part is not the issue. I suspect they're more concerned about the psychological issues, both for you and other recruits.  If they enrolled you as female, yet you have male physical "traits", where will you shower, use the bathroom, etc??  Unfortunately, as far as the CF goes, there are only two genders.  No in betweens.



At present, I no different from an intersex, as "I am not in the midst of changing gender" as I already have many years ago. As I mentioned, I provided letters from doctors as requested stating it is not a mental limitation, and that has been ignored despite Medical requesting them. I am part of a roller derby league and teams full of women whom I share change rooms, bathrooms. and showers with, it has never been an issue. Legal sex states which I use. I am female, legally and living, one gender. There is no in betweens.


----------



## mellian

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I know this is going to get me banned, but....
> 
> XX and XY chromosomes?



I don't know, as I never been tested. Keep in mind that there is a lot of women and men with varying sexual chromosomes like XXY, XXX, XYY, etc including women with XY and men XX from birth. Olympics learn this lesson years ago hence why they dropped the genetic chromosome testing. It is not as clear cut as you think, and if the CF did genetic chromosome testing of every single serving member, they will see that. 



> Oh, but it is.  There are varying physical fitness standards, with age and gender being variables for what standard you need to achieve.  And there are "male" accomodations and "female" accomodations.  And different dress standards.  The list goes on.



Since I am legally female and live as female, I use female accomodations, dress standards, and fitness standards. Again, non-issue.

If we ignore the legal aspect, I would still do female fitness standards as I do not produce enough testosterone and I have no for almost a decade to have any male physical advantage.


----------



## vonGarvin

OK, so as I understand it, you have, or had, a 1 in a million freakish condition/state of existence, and now you want the Big Green Machine to bend to your every whim?


Honestly, get a life...


(Hello warning system, here I come!)


(Edit to add: I just went to the admin forum, trying to give myself C and P for this; however, apparently only mods can do that?)


----------



## PMedMoe

mellian said:
			
		

> Legal sex states which I use. I am female, legally and living, one gender. There is no in betweens.


As I said, I don't think the legal part is the issue with the CF.  If you have male "traits" but live as a female, to the CF, you _are_ in between.

But, I'm not a lawyer, or a doctor (whether you deem them "qualified" or not), or deciding on your enrollment medical.  As someone here once said; the CF doesn't choose you, you choose the CF.

Why do I think the medical enrollment standards are going to be rewritten (soon) to be _very_ specific?


----------



## Brasidas

mellian said:
			
		

> I don't know, as I never been tested. Keep in mind that there is a lot of women and men with varying sexual chromosomes like XXY, XXX, XYY, etc including women with XY and men XX from birth. Olympics learn this lesson years ago hence why they dropped the genetic chromosome testing. It is not as clear cut as you think, and if the CF did genetic chromosome testing of every single serving member, they will see that.
> 
> Since I am legally female and live as female, I use female accomodations, dress standards, and fitness standards. Again, non-issue.
> 
> If we ignore the legal aspect, I would still do female fitness standards as I do not produce enough testosterone and I have no for almost a decade to have any male physical advantage.



Assuming the rule is firm along the lines of the glasses issue for near-sighted schmucks like me wanting to be a fighter pilot back in the day, what do you want to do?

I can imagine possible defences of the policy, though I'm not a defender of it.

Would you rather invest your resources into fighting the policy, which may very well take an extended period of time and be fruitless; conform yourself to the policy, taking some personal investment and perhaps risk; or just leave it be and pursue another career choice?


----------



## Kat Stevens

Just in case I haven't said it enough times;  The CF does not owe you a job.  You must conform to their requirements, not the other way around. 


Edited in order to avoid hurting anyone's feelings.


----------



## Loachman

The CF does not owe anybody a job, but one has the right to fair treatment.

Fair treatment has frequently been re-defined by the federal government, generally in response to court challenges.

Methods of discrimination have been struck down before, and the only allowable reasons for limiting enrollment are those that can be proven to have valid operational reasons.

Women can now fill combat roles - for many here that has "always" been the case.

Homosexuals are no longer released as sexual deviants - for many here that has "always" been the case.

This is likely to end up no differently.

Aside from that, this is a controversial subject. Keep the posting clean, non-confrontational, and free of insults.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I'm just taking a stab in the dark here, but I suspect your 'condition' will require ongoing medical surveillance, prophylaxis and possible surgery. If we won't accept a person because of a simple case of asthma or an allergy, why would we accept the burden of a case like yours? Now that things are out in the open a bit more, perhaps you could give a full synopsis so people have all the facts on which to base a discussion. I don't think it's fair for you to cast dispersions on our system, when the members haven't got the information to properly rebut.

Perhaps if you can provide the clinical requirements for your future medical care, physical, pharmacological and psychological, maybe we can understand things better and would be able to provide better answers and repore. Otherwise, it is likely to be seen, as has already happened, as self entitled whining from your side of the discussion.


----------



## Steel Badger

mellian said:
			
		

> I got a response from the RMO in Ottawa.
> 
> Since this particular individual Major MD (as I am not blaming the CF for this) will not budge
> I hate this.



Sorry for the extreme edit of quote.
But I see and hear similar opinions expressed everyday. If the RMO ( or RPSO for that matter) won't give in to a particular applicant's particular demand, I then must listen to said applicant explain how it is the systems's fault and that while standards are fine for others, they should not apply in said applicants case because they are special.....

Perhaps it is not a conspiracy to ignore what an applicant considers to be an open and shut solution to their own particular case: mayhap it is just that member of the CF doing his or her job IAW regulations. One should not implicate an idividual who is doing their job IAW regs.
In the recruiting system, we are held to current rules and regs.  And it is equally true, as Herr Loachman indicated, that rules and regs change over time. Perhaps in time the regs will change in Melian's favour...perhaps not.

But I expect  that the RMO major is doing his or her job......not waging a personal vendetta......  Recceguy's comments are quite valid as well.


----------



## Journeyman

"Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck."
                                                                               _~ Dalai Lama_


----------



## armyvern

mellian said:
			
		

> At present, I no different from an intersex, as "I am not in the midst of changing gender" as I already have many years ago. As I mentioned, I provided letters from doctors as requested stating it is not a mental limitation, and that has been ignored despite Medical requesting them. I am part of a roller derby league and teams full of women whom I share change rooms, bathrooms. and showers with, it has never been an issue. Legal sex states which I use. I am female, legally and living, one gender. There is no in betweens.



I have one question as you answers can be read multiple ways:

You are "legally" recognized as a woman and live as a woman after having been born male. BUT, have you undergone GRS already or do you plan on doing so in the future? Your answer above is ambigious - as it leaves room for "just" legally changed. In either case, the CF is not obligated (and actually makes a habit of by regulation) to enrol anyone into the CF who is awaiting surgery - it has nothing to do with sexuality. 

If awaiting GRS: They require that medical issues (including any surgeries) are sorted out *prior* to enrolment; in that case you are not being treated 'differently' (thus have no leg to stand on with the omsbudsman) than any other applicant to the CF hoping to 'potentially' become a recruit. Your condition itself may not be considered "medical" in and of itself --- but the GRS certainly is.

If you do not plan on undergoing GRS, the "legal" issue itself raises issues with both personal and operational security. Members of the CF are required to deploy on international operations, at any time, anywhere in the world - often with zero notice. When we deploy internationally, we are required to comply with Canada's laws, our military laws, AND the laws of whichever country we are deploying into. A sad fact of life, unfortunately, is that there are more nations in the world who are a whole lot less 'accomodating' or 'advanced' socially _if you will_ than Canada.

What happens when you are arrested at their border because your non-girlie goods don't match what your legal documentation states? This creates an issue of both personal security and safety for you and, by default as your 'potential employer', onto the CF. Many nations will not be 'nice' with their inquisitions of you in that circumstance as the fact of the matter is that although your gender is legally recognized in Canada as that of a female, it is not so in the vast majority of those hellholes into which we deploy who's law we are also subjected to. In many of those places it is quite illegal (and severley punished) to "live as the gender you are not physically" and I'd imagine it'd be especially more so given that you'd hold legal paperwork (passport etc) that also didn't match up with the physical package being presented.

On that front, I can see the legitimate concerns that not having, or ever intending to have, GRS places on both your capability to deploy on international ops in a universal manner (which has already been determined to be a 'military necessity' which was upheld during a Charter Challenge, thus allowing the CF to release personnel who do not "meet" that universality of service requirement) and the additional admin tasks placed upon the CF in dealing with any deployment to a foreign-theatre you may be subject to.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Legally someone said your a Woman simply because deep down to write that on a piece of parchment means SFA.

Get "legally" arrested tonight and see into which 'system' you fall............I've already seen a few whom it would be me searching the lower half and a female guard would search the upper half.

My new partner at work did 24 years of A&D at the female section of a Toronto jail..........she also confirms this.


----------



## Strike

I have to agree with both Recceguy and ArmyVern on this one.  They just answered quicker than I could blast through 12 pages of posts!

Someone with braces can't join until they are removed or can't deploy until the same.  Someone who has been diagnosed as cancer-free after just finishing treatment can't be considered for application into the CF until a certain period of time has passed (5 years I think?).  If you are going through any type of hormone therapy that probably puts you out of the running as you essentially must be monitored more frequently than once every 6 months.

And it's not just a health issue but geographical as well, such as Vern pointed out.

Does this whole thing suck?  Sure, especially as you've been working so long to get in.  Does this mean it will always be this way?  Who knows.  I don't trust my magic eight ball for things as big as this.  If your efforts are making the CF take a closer look at cases such as your and considering changing things to suit, then your efforts won't be in vain.  Just remember that the wheels of the CF are slow to turn and you might never get a chance to reap the benefits.


----------



## mellian

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm just taking a stab in the dark here, but I suspect your 'condition' will require ongoing medical surveillance, prophylaxis and possible surgery.



And your stab misses. My 'condition' is one is not going to ever change because there is no cure. SRS is not a cure, it is a treatment, optional one at that. All trans members presently active in the CF, their condition does not change just because they got SRS. 

It is also not the only treatment, as there is also hormones, actually living life as your actual gender and all that entails to do so, other surgeries like breast removal, breasts augmentation, orchiectomy, Hysterectomy, and then legal aspects like employment and legally changing one's sex. 

Each province have different requirements for legally changing one's sex that has nothing to do with medical. I fulfilled the requirements of my home province and so I got my sex legally changed. Federal government leaves it up to each province to handle that, and recognizes my legal change. So passport, driver's license, health card, insurance, SIN, medical files, employments, etc all say female with no issues or problems legally. 

I fulfilled the requirements of "transitioning" as I am living my gender without any issues, hence no need of ongoing medical surveillence. Legal requirements have also been fulfilled. SRS at this point for me is optional, not requirement or needed for my ongoing mental health and gender, and not something I am presently in the process or scheduled to get.  All the paperwork as been provided to medical...and still ignored and full SRS still required with no valid reason provided. 



			
				Steel Badger said:
			
		

> Perhaps it is not a conspiracy to ignore what an applicant considers to be an open and shut solution to their own particular case: mayhap it is just that member of the CF doing his or her job IAW regulations. One should not implicate an idividual who is doing their job IAW regs.



As mentioned multiple times in this thread, there is nothing the medical standard and no present policy/regulation for my condition which was confirmed by various including a letter from DOD to an inquiry I made last october. The individual is using individual initiative, not rules, in his decision, no matter what their intentions was, and then failed to provide their reasoning as to how exactly genitalia or lack off is considered a limitation as per defined in the medical standard. 




> In the recruiting system, we are held to current rules and regs.  And it is equally true, as Herr Loachman indicated, that rules and regs change over time. Perhaps in time the regs will change in Melian's favour...perhaps not.



Yes, but there is no current regs on my 'condition', hence a decision is made without it at the individual level which results in unfair treament.



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> BUT, have you undergone GRS already or do you plan on doing so in the future?



Only a partial one to fulfill requirements of legal change, and presently not planning full SRS as I do not need it to maintain my gender and health. 



> to enrol anyone into the CF who is awaiting surgery - it has nothing to do with sexuality.



I am not awaiting surgery, and that has been made clear to the Major MD. 




> If you do not plan on undergoing GRS, the "legal" issue itself raises issues with both personal and operational security.



That is not the Major MD's job to determine that, especially unilaterally. 



> Members of the CF are required to deploy on international operations, at any time, anywhere in the world - often with zero notice. When we deploy internationally, we are required to comply with Canada's laws, our military laws, AND the laws of whichever country we are deploying into. A sad fact of life, unfortunately, is that there are more nations in the world who are a whole lot less 'accomodating' or 'advanced' socially _if you will_ than Canada.



I am female, live as female, and my legal identification is female. I pretty fulfill every countries legal requirements in that regard.



> What happens when you are arrested at their border because your non-girlie goods don't match what your legal documentation states? This creates an issue of both personal security and safety for you and, by default as your 'potential employer', onto the CF. Many nations will not be 'nice' with their inquisitions of you in that circumstance as the fact of the matter is that although your gender is legally recognized in Canada as that of a female, it is not so in the vast majority of those hellholes into which we deploy who's law we are also subjected to. In many of those places it is quite illegal (and severley punished) to "live as the gender you are not physically" and I'd imagine it'd be especially more so given that you'd hold legal paperwork (passport etc) that also didn't match up with the physical package being presented.



If they do not recognize legal identifications, and I am arrested, chances are I am screwed no matter what. There are countries who can arrest women for not covering themselves up in clothe, for wearing pants, for not being the right ethinicity, for not following a particular religion, etc. What does the CF do in those cases? 

While I understand what you are saying here, it is a slippery slope and what ifs with no evidence. Again, also not something part of Major MD's job to determine that or medical in general. 



> On that front, I can see the legitimate concerns that not having, or ever intending to have, GRS places on both your capability to deploy on international ops in a universal manner (which has already been determined to be a 'military necessity' which was upheld during a Charter Challenge, thus allowing the CF to release personnel who do not "meet" that universality of service requirement) and the additional admin tasks placed upon the CF in dealing with any deployment to a foreign-theatre you may be subject to.



That is not a medical decision, and also, what does the CF do for intersex individuals? At present, I am not different from an intersex women with ambiguous genitalia. 

Also, talking the charter. I am legally female and proven to live as female for many years, and getting denied because I am not "female enough" is goes against discrimination base on Sex. If the individual Major MD cannot prove how not having a particular set of genitalia is a medical limitation, or how it goes against "universality of service requirement", that is where it will end up if the CF backs him on that individual decision. 


Whatever the case, there is no present clear cut regulation or policy on this (as confirmed by letter from DOD), hence still room to appeal.


----------



## Brasidas

I guess that answers my question.

Good luck with the next couple years partially putting your life on hold fighting for acceptance by a bureaucracy that says you don't fit. Believe it or not, there wasn't sarcasm in that sentence.


----------



## HavocSteve

Well, I wish you the best of luck mellian in your en devour.. maybe the CF will rewrite part of their recruitment section on your behalf if you do make it in


----------



## armychick2009

I want you to be aware that I am supporting you in whatever way you need to get where you're going. BUT... you said something in your last lengthy note that really has be concerned.

You mentioned that you meet pretty much every countries definition of woman.

I will wholeheartedly declare here, that you are NOT.  Our current "ally" (I use the term loosely) of Iran does NOT consider you a woman. In fact, if you EVER at any point in the future got "captured", you would in fact, likely face a worse fate than any other canadian soldier would. You are so fortunate to live in a country where you can live the way you are, with as much tolerance as society will allow. (And, that changes... 70 years ago, you wouldn't have the same experience you do right now... and fifty years from now, it'll be different even than now).

But, most of the countries we are being deployed to now in a combat situation, are Muslim. Your situation is frowned deeply within that culture, I assure you. Heck, just a few years ago women were (and still are) hiding their faces. Do you think they would "accept" you over there if you got captured, as a woman? If you have anything that indicates you are a gender that is stated? These are places that still believe in sewing up vaginas in young girls with no medical assistance. 

Please be aware that this could always be a possibility. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_tiFZjNQY&feature=related  (DEFINITELY a worth-see, this video)
http://ilga.org/ilga/en/article/mhWGbSg1Ng
http://www.irqr.net/  (PGLO)

This was something that we read/watched in our History of Persecution class with the one Gender class I took. Don't forget -- PLEASE -- that your job will take you outside of Canada's cozy borders.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Armychick, I also was curious about that statement. How can you say that "in just about every country" when just a few lines earlier you said even our own Federal Govt. leaves it up to the provinces?


EDIT: Rather than post after Mr. O'Leary's lock I decided to put Vern's answer to Mellian's post as it does have meaningful and pertinent information in it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From ArmyVern,



Someone locked the thread ...

But I just spent 30 minutes doing up this reply to Mellian ... trying to explain to her ... Arggghhhhhh!!

Quote from: mellian on Today at 13:59:11

    ...

    I fulfilled the requirements of "transitioning" as I am living my gender without any issues, hence no need of ongoing medical surveillence. Legal requirements have also been fulfilled. SRS at this point for me is optional, not requirement or needed for my ongoing mental health and gender, and not something I am presently in the process or scheduled to get.  All the paperwork as been provided to medical...and still ignored and full SRS still required with no valid reason provided.



I am of the belief that it has not been "ignored", but has been "considered" in the larger context given your latter comments/answers in this reply of yours.

Quote

    As mentioned multiple times in this thread, there is nothing the medical standard and no present policy/regulation for my condition which was confirmed by various including a letter from DOD to an inquiry I made last october. The individual is using individual initiative, not rules, in his decision, no matter what their intentions was, and then failed to provide their reasoning as to how exactly genitalia or lack off is considered a limitation as per defined in the medical standard.

    Yes, but there is no current regs on my 'condition', hence a decision is made without it at the individual level which results in unfair treament.



The CF has "rules and regulations", in writing, regarding applicants;

1) That one will not be enrolled if one is undergoing medical/dental process' or is expected to. I understand with the answers that you give further in this current reply of yours, that this is not applicable to your situation as you have no planned, upcoming, continuing or underway medical procedures.

2) That all potential applicants must meet 'Universality of Service' requirements; this necessity, as I've already stated has already been determined via a Charter Challenge which upheld it as a "bonified service requirement". Now, this "bonified service requirement" may not specificly mention a case such as yours, but it does uphold that each potential member of the CF must be able to deploy anywhere in the world with zero notice at time of recruitment. This is where I believe that you fall. The CF can not deploy you anywhere in the world as CF regulations and Canadian law also deem that "we" must also comply within host nation law while deployed. That means, that the CF can not deploy you to a zone where you "being normal" is in contravention of host nation law.

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    Only a partial one to fulfill requirements of legal change, and presently not planning full SRS as I do not need it to maintain my gender and health.

    I am not awaiting surgery, and that has been made clear to the Major MD. 




I understand that. But, a partial change to comply with legal change status in Canada does not make it "legal" in another nation where living as the opposite of what your physical parts are is illegal. It is a matter of Universality of Service. The CF can not/would not ever deploy you to a nation where your "living as a woman with female documentation but male parts" is illegal. If they can not deploy you "everywhere" at a moments notice, then you do not meet those bonified service requirements.

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    That is not the Major MD's job to determine that, especially unilaterally. 


I believe the Major is considering your situation with regards to Universality of Service as I have outlined above. UofS requirements are clearly laid out in writing in medical and other regulations. The UofS requirements do not specificly lay our every conceiveable medical condition in the world, but they do clearly lay out that one MUST be able to deploy anywhere at any time (and we must comply with host nation law while there) as a bonified (and charter tested) service requirement; you can not deploy to every country at any time and comply with their host nation laws given that your 'normal' way of living and recognizing yourself here in Canada is illegal in some of those places.

The major may have signed your letter ... but I will be you a pole dance his decision was far from "unilateral" and based on nothing. I believe that it was based upon your not meeting UofS requirements given that the CF would be unable to deploy you "everywhere" ... just "some" places.

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    I am female, live as female, and my legal identification is female. I pretty fulfill every countries legal requirements in that regard.



Here in Canada, but not everywhere you may potentially be required to deploy. Again, not meeting bonified UofS requirements.

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    If they do not recognize legal identifications, and I am arrested, chances are I am screwed no matter what. There are countries who can arrest women for not covering themselves up in clothe, for wearing pants, for not being the right ethinicity, for not following a particular religion, etc. What does the CF do in those cases? 



The CF would NEVER deploy you to a nation where living as one gender while physically being another is illegal; they would never place you in the situation where you'd be subject to arrest in the first place. Thus, because they could not/would not deploy you into a nation where your "normal here in Canada" would be illegal - you do not meet UofS requirements required to be met for recruitment purposes.

When I am in a host nation which requires that I cover up ... I do. We also have jewish members who did not enter Syria while deployed on UNDOF ... because it would have been illegal for them to do so. It was also illegal for us to take anything Hebrew with us when crossing the border ... so we didn't. And, if we did - we were dealt with discipline-wise. "Their" normal becomes "our" normal while in "their" nation.

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    While I understand what you are saying here, it is a slippery slope and what ifs with no evidence. Again, also not something part of Major MD's job to determine that or medical in general. 

    That is not a medical decision, and also, what does the CF do for intersex individuals? At present, I am not different from an intersex women with ambiguous genitalia.



Determining whether or not a potential recruit (or serving member) meets Universality of Service requirements is certainly well within the jurisdiction of the medical world amongst others. They also have the ability to recommend for release serving members who "no longer" meet UofS requirements. "No Longer" being the operative words here. Serving members are already serving. They met those bonified UofS requirements when enrolled (you don't). If the situation changes so that they "no longer" meet UofS, they are placed on a TCat (which prevents their deployment on International Ops) until the situation can be rectified, either medically or administratively. If the situation can not be rectified, they are bumped up to a PCat and will eventually be released from the Cf for "not meeting UofS requirements". In your case, you don't meet them now ... and until all the nations living in the present as if it were 4 centuries ago change their laws to make "living as a different sex than my physical bits indicate" legal ... you won't meet that UofS requirement.

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    Also, talking the charter. I am legally female and proven to live as female for many years, and getting denied because I am not "female enough" is goes against discrimination base on Sex. If the individual Major MD cannot prove how not having a particular set of genitalia is a medical limitation, or how it goes against "universality of service requirement", that is where it will end up if the CF backs him on that individual decision. 




Stop harping on the Major. He signed the letter. it wasn't simply a "personal" decision OR an individual decision on his part.

Speaking of the Charter, no one has denied you because you weren't "female enough". If they did, please scan the letter that you received and upload it. I'd love to see it.

Rather, it is UofS. The CF doesn't have to back him up at all. UofS has already been determined and found to be a "Bonified Service Requirement" by the Charter Challenge that found that CF members MUST be able to deploy anywhere in the world at any time. You can't do that (ie you do NOT meet UofS) because what is legal here is NOT legal in many areas where we deploy. And, if you can't deploy there - you do NOT meet UofS.

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    Whatever the case, there is no present clear cut regulation or policy on this (as confirmed by letter from DOD), hence still room to appeal.



There is clear-cut regulations on upcoming medical/dental process'.

And, there is clear-cut regulations (upheld by Charter Challenge) regarding UofS: they state that ALL potential recruits must be able to deploy anywhere in the world at a moments notice. You can not as further service requirments also dictate that we MUST comply with host nation law while there.

I fear that until those nations change their laws, you are not/will not be "universally deployable" and thus do not meet the current requirements of the service for recruiting pur


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## Kat Stevens

armychick2009 said:
			
		

> I want you to be aware that I am supporting you in whatever way you need to get where you're going. BUT... you said something in your last lengthy note that really has be concerned.
> 
> You mentioned that you meet pretty much every countries definition of woman.
> 
> I will wholeheartedly declare here, that you are NOT.  Our current "ally" (I use the term loosely) of Iran does NOT consider you a woman. In fact, if you EVER at any point in the future got "captured", you would in fact, likely face a worse fate than any other canadian soldier would. You are so fortunate to live in a country where you can live the way you are, with as much tolerance as society will allow. (And, that changes... 70 years ago, you wouldn't have the same experience you do right now... and fifty years from now, it'll be different even than now).
> 
> But, most of the countries we are being deployed to now in a combat situation, are Muslim. Your situation is frowned deeply within that culture, I assure you. Heck, just a few years ago women were (and still are) hiding their faces. Do you think they would "accept" you over there if you got captured, as a woman? If you have anything that indicates you are a gender that is stated? These are places that still believe in sewing up vaginas in young girls with no medical assistance.
> 
> Please be aware that this could always be a possibility.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_tiFZjNQY&feature=related  (DEFINITELY a worth-see, this video)
> http://ilga.org/ilga/en/article/mhWGbSg1Ng
> http://www.irqr.net/  (PGLO)
> 
> This was something that we read/watched in our History of Persecution class with the one Gender class I took. Don't forget -- PLEASE -- that your job will take you outside of Canada's cozy borders.




I know I said I'd stay out of this, and I promise to after this.  You don't need to look as far afield as Iran to find problems, give this a look, right next door.

http://www.maketheroad.org/article.php?ID=31

I'm out now.


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## Michael OLeary

Ok folks.  This one has gone around the track enough with no advancement of rational debate towards a common viewpoint.  

Mellian, you are not going to find resolution to your compliant against the CF here.  If you feel you have a valid case there are official courses of action available to you.  

To all: please do not try and revisit this issue in another thread.

Milnet.ca Staff


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