# Chest Rig vs Tac vest



## theoldyoungguy (23 Mar 2006)

Realising that the issue Tac vest is a piece of junk, I thought id start a discussion on viable alternatives. Ive been discussing this alot with people back at my home unit and in other forums. Id like to hear from some of the infantry types who have been overseas using the different systems. what do you think of a chest rig vs maybe a modular tac vest? Ive been thinking about what to buy myself when I go over, assuming im driving a G wagon on patrols what do you think would be the best option?


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## Farmboy (23 Mar 2006)

I can't say what works best because everyone is different in what they need/ want but here are the top 3 that guys want. (That I carry)

1. High Speed Gear -  Warlord series

2. TAG  -  Operators chest rig

3. High Speed Gear -  Silverthrone


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## Matt_Fisher (23 Mar 2006)

It's very much personal preference based on what your mission/loadout is going to be.

If you're going to be driving/vehicle mounted the majority of the time and your primary weapon will be a C-7A2 (?), I'd recommend a chest rig as it will interface well with your environment (G-Wagen)
Have a look at what we've got available at ICE for a modular setup http://www.icetactical.com/chest-rig.html and if you've got something specific in mind we're more than happy to do custom requests.  We've got Khaki/Coyote Brown and TW Cadpat Cordura available to order.


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## Fdtrucker (24 Mar 2006)

Driving a G-Wagon with both a tac vest and frag vest on and minimum 6 feet tall sitting on a ballistic blanket pushes you near the steering wheel. Depending on how YOU set up the driver's seat seat you could be right against the steering wheeling impeding your driving. This does not matter what MOSID you are in


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## theoldyoungguy (24 Mar 2006)

I realise it is per preference, thats why im asking you what has worked best for some of you guys, and the positives and negatives, just to give me an idea.


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## Grunt (24 Mar 2006)

You might want to try a split front chest rig like the TT 2 Piece MAV, or SO Tech Hellcat MK3, the Hellcat has 6 integral magazine pouches.


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## Haggis (24 Mar 2006)

There's already 17+ pages of spirited discussion here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41201.0.html


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## DropZone (24 Mar 2006)

Gentlemen,

At Drop Zone Tactical we are seeing alot of sales in our ModCan Vest as well as our Modular Chest Rig/ Belt Rig in CadPat ™ Ar. In fact we delivered a case of our Chest Rigs to the PPCLI Kit Shop just this week. I was told by kit shop personel that the entire shipment was pre-ordered and was going to A-Stan.

Kind Regards
Brian Kroon


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## Kal (24 Mar 2006)

loyaleddie,

Pm sent


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## PhilB (24 Mar 2006)

I'm using a 2 peice MAV over hear right now and I couldnt be happier. I would definitly suggest a split front rig as normal chest rigs can be a pain in the ass to get on over armour when they are fully loaded. I would further suggest a chest rig as opposed to a full vest. G Wagons are tight inside, particularily when filled with blast blankets. A chest rig is basically your lowest profile option. Keep in mind that unlike green ops, the training we are used to at home, over here you basically only need to carry ammo, and a med kit on you. Water can be camelbak and the rest of your gear can be in a bug out bag in the wagon.


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## fourninerzero (24 Mar 2006)

Just a question for dropzone, how much real estate is there on your modular chest rig? how many pouches can you fit? I was thinking of 3 triple mag pouches, two C9 pouches with grenade pouches piggybacked, as well as one or two field dressing pouches and a rolly polly dump pouch. Also, do you make a Mules Bib to attach to the carrier as well?


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## theoldyoungguy (24 Mar 2006)

allright pretty sound advice. I got one more further question seeing as how the fighting order and the boot type were both a major topic in the news lately regarding deployed troops. Have any of you used the ft lewis danners in afghanistan, I purchasded the black ones and was just curious as to there performance in a place like afghanistan, or whether or not they will make you wear tan boots.


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## PhilB (25 Mar 2006)

If you are leaving the wire you can wear pretty much whatever you want. However, keep in mind ... ITS HOT! A pair of tall, heavy insulated boots is not usually the best idea. What I see a lot of guys hear doing is going with either the issue vibram boots (which I hate, imaging CWWB with canvas sides and tan), or Swats/Magnums for normal wear. Then bringing a second sturdier boot should they have to operate on foot in steep terrain. From what I can see the boots of choise are generally European. Lowa's and Hanwags. This is just what I am seeing.


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## Hmm donuts! (25 Mar 2006)

Phil's right, once you leave the wire it's your game (depends what brigade your with). Right now we're allowed to wear our own rigs, tac-vests, and lbv's . I have a long range patrol vest in OD from Arktis, Awsome. It holds all 10 mags, nvg's, first aid gear, camelback (internal pouch) and grenades. I've done every thing here so far in terms of LAV and G-wagon (except CC). Driving I found was pretty easy. There are guys here with warlords, blackhawk and TAG rigs who also driven, they never complained. In the end it's your preferance, but I have to say this. I don't care what anyone says, even RSM's, when soldiers look exactly alike, unitimidating. When soldiers purchase, they know what works and can think for themselves and look intimidating. Whatever, good luck!​


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## DropZone (25 Mar 2006)

FourNinerZero,

Unfortunately our Chest Rig will not hold all that stuff, close but not all. It is based on a early British Style and not the "bib" style. 

Sorry. 

There are lots of photos of it our website if you care to view it.

Kind Regards
Brian


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## theoldyoungguy (25 Mar 2006)

Im gonna go look at your website now brian. Just to clarify about the danners, they are uninsilated, insilated ones are crap for an infanteer I think. Does anyone have any experience with the uninsilated ft lewis danners in afghanistan? I mainly bought them for use in canada, but im just curious as to there performance in the hot sandy weather in astan.

Regarding chest rigs, ive never worn one, when loaded up with 10-15 loaded mags and equipment, are they overly front heavy, or is it a similar feel to the issued TV?


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## Britney Spears (25 Mar 2006)

Why don't you just go to the store and try it on?


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## MikeL (25 Mar 2006)

Like Britney Spears said just try one on. From my experiance with them, they aren't too front heavy, aslong as you know how to adjust it to your body an know hot to load it up an spread out the weight on the front an sides your good to go.


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## mike01 (28 Mar 2006)

Aside from the obvious answer, why is a reservist going overseas to a war zone to begin with, a more appropriate answer would be what is your role? I mean no offence by my first comment (jeez, what is the army coming to when you have to worry about offending people). 

Like I said, it is determined by your role. Are you a rifleman, a C9 gunner, a C6 gunner? Of course it is by personal preference, but that is more of a comfort value. The obvious choice is modular. Make it so you can attach and detach pouches as you see fit. If you go with a vest then you naturally have less room since you have to leave the back open for your ruck sack or patrol pack. If on day patrols then a detachable rear back pouch is one option but keep in mind of water IE. camel back. Just go with a separate patrol pack although less comfortable.

The other option is a webbing style. Although it is unpopular it may be what your looking for. Modular or fixed it can alleviate some problems and it will carry more and interfere less with a back pack. Some like it. Some don't. You can consider it. 

Whatever your choice, flexibility is the key. You are no doubt aware the TV is grossly inadequate. The bigger question is wether or not you are allowed to wear it.


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## theoldyoungguy (28 Mar 2006)

@mike01

The guys in my unit deployed in astan are doing DNS, convoy security, and some may get on the odd foot patrol. Some of the guys have been issued up to 15 mags. So there playing a fairly significant part in this big picture.

I could be doing those things, however since i got my drivers course im gonna assume I might be driving a g wagon. If not that then possibly either DNS, convoy security, or maybe individual augmentee which I doubt due to the lack of experience I have. But who knows, currently my assumption is I will be a G wagon driver.


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## mudgunner49 (28 Mar 2006)

mike01 said:
			
		

> *Aside from the obvious answer, why is a reservist going overseas to a war zone to begin with,* a more appropriate answer would be what is your role? I mean no offence by my first comment (jeez, what is the army coming to when you have to worry about offending people).
> 
> *The same thing tht the Regular  Force is doing - lots of good experience out there in the Reserves my friend.  When the Regs require aumentees they don't go looking at Tim Horton's for likely candidates... *
> Like I said, it is determined by your role. Are you a rifleman, a C9 gunner, a C6 gunner? Of course it is by personal preference, but that is more of a comfort value. The obvious choice is modular. Make it so you can attach and detach pouches as you see fit. If you go with a vest then you naturally have less room since you have to leave the back open for your ruck sack or patrol pack. If on day patrols then a detachable rear back pouch is one option but keep in mind of water IE. camel back. Just go with a separate patrol pack although less comfortable.
> ...


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## Grunt (30 Mar 2006)

To be honest, ive tried several vests and didnt like them at all.  The setup im thinking of going to is a molle webbing setup, with Eagle H Harness suspenders, some kind of Molle modular belt, 2 HSG Mag pouches for C7 mags,  radio pouch, TT large utility pouch, rollypolly dump pouch, eagle LRRP buttpack, and a TT util pouch.  I actually tried this setup with my old 82 patt suspenders and belt, and if the eagle buttpack is worn low on the belt, it mates up with a ruck pretty well, almost as good as the British PLCE webbing I picked up.


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## NATO Boy (30 Mar 2006)

Grunt said:
			
		

> To be honest, ive tried several vests and didnt like them at all.  The setup im thinking of going to is a molle webbing setup, with Eagle H Harness suspenders, some kind of Molle modular belt, 2 HSG Mag pouches for C7 mags,  radio pouch, TT large utility pouch, rollypolly dump pouch, eagle LRRP buttpack, and a TT util pouch.  I actually tried this setup with my old 82 patt suspenders and belt, and if the eagle buttpack is worn low on the belt, it mates up with a ruck pretty well, almost as good as the British PLCE webbing I picked up.



Not to pee in your wheaties, but.....did you try any of the vests while wearing a frag vest or plate carrier? You might find vests to ride better than webbing when using FPVs or PCs. The one thing I like about the issue TV is how it sits on a frag vest a bit better compared to the 82 Pat Webbing; those who had crappy belt buckles or constantly found themselves using hockey tape on the suspenders will know what I mean... 

Mickey


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## NL_engineer (30 Mar 2006)

mudgunner49 said:
			
		

> Try wearing a TV or even a chest rig in a jungle environment - gets old fast as you need more ventilation.  The "old" LBE with belt, suspenders and belt-mounted pouches is still the best...



How much difference is there going to be when you are wearing a Frag-Vest ???


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## vonGarvin (30 Mar 2006)

loyaleddie87 said:
			
		

> Realising that the issue Tac vest is a piece of junk, I thought id start a discussion on viable alternatives. Ive been discussing this alot with people back at my home unit and in other forums. Id like to hear from some of the infantry types who have been overseas using the different systems. what do you think of a chest rig vs maybe a modular tac vest? Ive been thinking about what to buy myself when I go over, assuming im driving a G wagon on patrols what do you think would be the best option?


First of all, your premise is flawed.  Now, I know that I'm only a desk jockey (now), but I've worn the TV on several FTXs and on two operations.  The TV fills the need for the majority of the combat arms.  Unless you're a reservist going over on black ops with the JTF-2, save your money.  A "gucci" Chest Rig won't save your life or make you more comfortable.  If you're driving a G Wagen on patrols, wear the TV.  It's issue, it's free, it's replaceable, and consider the source of some of your replies: merchandisers.  That should tell you something.

WRT footwear, if the issue boots don't cut the bill for you, get a chit and get them free of charge.  If you're not able to, forget about it, because if you injure yourself whilst wearing non-authorised gear, and that gear is found to be part of the problem (note: not necessarily the cause, but simply part of the problem), you will NOT  be covered.

As for someone asking "why" are reservists going overseas?  Short answer: because they too are soldiers and if you've seen the ORBAT for the infantry section, for example, you'll realise that there are two reservists slotted for every rifle section.  It's not "us" vs "them", but "one big happy family" 

But seriously, in my professional opinion, any money you spend on a gucci chest rig will be a waste.  Buy stuff that you will need: extra socks.  extra underwear.  books.  Pencils.  envelopes.  etc etc etc.


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## Grunt (30 Mar 2006)

Good point Mickey

Im probably going to go with the SO Tech Hellcat Mk3 chest rig with a camelback, its a KISS looking rig and the 6 integral magazine pouches to help cut down on bulkiness.


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## Kal (30 Mar 2006)

Why anyone would want to wear the issue TV that is barely adequate, when something else superior in design and function is available, is beyond me.  To say that the TV is adequate is quite a stretch, nonetheless.  

Good gear will assist you and should help in the effectiveness of your actions.  The extra seconds saved by speed and ease when drawing a fresh mag from a quality rig rather than the TV can save your life.  Is spending a few hundred bucks worth it?  To some, obviously not, but to others that realise quality gear can help you fight more effectively and can save your ***, it more than worth it.  Even if it is just for one tour.  Besides, should you choose to attend some _extra-curricular_ courses, you sure can use it then.  

You're not fighting alone either.  Your covering your buddies and they're entrusting their lives to you, wouldn't you want to fight the most effectively for them also?


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## Britney Spears (30 Mar 2006)

> Buy stuff that you will need: extra socks.  extra underwear.  books.  Pencils.  envelopes.  etc etc etc.



Hmm, I've never had a problem getting THOSE items through the supply system. The friendly staff over in stores have always been more than happy to supply me with all the socks and pencils I ask for, and the issued socks and undies are actually good, too. I don't know how I ever got out of bed before we got the coolmax undies. 

You and I must not be in the same army........

I still can't understand the constant derisiveness towards JTF-2. JTF-2 does a lot of PT ( I know, I saw the PPT), but since I'm not in JTF-2 there's no reaon for me to do PT or aspire to their standards, right?


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## vonGarvin (31 Mar 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> You and I must not be in the same army........


Same uniform, different army.  Maybe.


			
				Britney Spears said:
			
		

> I still can't understand the constant derisiveness towards JTF-2. JTF-2 does a lot of PT ( I know, I saw the PPT), but since I'm not in JTF-2 there's no reaon for me to do PT or aspire to their standards, right?


No derisiveness towards JTF-2, CSOR or any other organisation intended.  You can aspire to their standards, and even exceed them if you wish.  In fact, that should be encouraged in my opinion.  Having said that, the current standard for non-JTF-2 lads isn't quite the same.  Ever wonder why?


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## KevinB (2 Apr 2006)

Quite simply the TV was designed with a Bosnia type PSO in mind.  It works for non combat operations, and somewhat for support pers in operations.

Kit can be tailored for the mission - but one thing with the Chest Rigs and Vest etc - the fact you will have to be able to fire from the prone position MUST be taken into account.

 99% of the rigs out their are VERY middle bulky - and make getting a decent prone (one to both return fire effectively and also to be in a position of cover and not look like a dog humping a football.)

The same rig that is effective while humping thru the moutains, will/may not be effective when driving a GWagon, or kicking doors and burning villages   in urban combat.

 For *ME* I have found an intergrated rig (Eagle CIRAS, Paraclete RAV, Diamondback Predator etc.) works the best - but I am in and out of vehicles and need to be set up to kick doors (and sit around watching movies, or surfing the net   too ).

 I did not even bring my TV to Afghan for Athena - I quickly realised in pre-training it did not meet my needs -- however I found out rather unfortunately that the DHTC Patrol Vest AND the DHTC Chest Rig did not work in the fricking Toyota Surf and Nissan Terrano while driving - over the CF issued PBA.  

 That led me to trying a shitload of gear - and settling on the Paraclete RAV - however due to the fact it won't take the CF soft armour inserts it will be a no-go for many in the CF (other than guys issued it..)

 The same fiasco that I had - will be had by M203 Grenadiers, C9 Gunners and C6 Gunners and everyone that does not carry just a rifle/carbine.  Quite clearly some sort of MOLLE overvest would allow the pers to configure the setup for them - in the mission and role they are slotted into, in fact I beleive their are a few companies that are trying to make a PBA cover that is of MOLLE setup. - And again vehicle crews have different needs for they have to drive/command/gun the system in Armour - yet have no room for a vest at the same time.


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## vonGarvin (2 Apr 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Quite simply the TV was designed with a Bosnia type PSO in mind.  It works for non combat operations, and somewhat for support pers in operations.


From the propaganda site ("clothe the soldier")
"Concept of Use – Improved accessibility and weight distribution for ammunition and combat stores. *The TV has been designed to sustain the soldier for short duration periods of between eight hours and twenty-four hours.* As the basic component of the CTS Load Carriage System (LCS), *the TV will fully integrate with the other components of the LCS*: the Small Pack System (SPS) and the Rucksack. The TV may be worn over current combat clothing, the middle layer of the Improved Environmental Clothing System (IECS), and with or without the CTS Fragmentation Protective Vest (including the CTS Ballistic Plates)."
What I've highlighted is obviously my emphasis.  It is designed for short duration and meant to integrate with other elements of the "LCS".  It was not designed with PSO of any kind in mind.  It was designed for combat operations.  Now, is it the best thing out there?  Of course not.  But, as some have suggested _should_ be done was in fact done for the TV: trialed and tested by combat arms.  I don't have the results, but on the DIN check out LFTEU and see what their recommendations were: who knows?  Maybe they had something else in mind and the manufacturer of the issued TV is in "someone's" riding (tongue in cheek)


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## KevinB (2 Apr 2006)

;D

You should work in CTS.  The fact they built it around 4 mags on the vest makes it a Bosnia (post war) vest.  

 I was not specifically badmouthing the TV in my previous post - I was just attempting to remind troops before they spend their hard earned (unlike my quite easily earned) dollars they should sit back and do a combat estimate for what they want out of a vest - keeping in mind tactical requirements as well.

Having been around the "town" a bit recently I would not go out in Kandahar with a TV - as I think they are tactically unsound.


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## NL_engineer (2 Apr 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Having been around the "town" a bit recently I would not go out in Kandahar with a TV - as I think they are tactically unsound.



Are you referring to the issued TV/ other fixed TV's ???


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## vonGarvin (2 Apr 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> ;D
> You should work in CTS.  The fact they built it around 4 mags on the vest makes it a Bosnia (post war) vest.


PLEASE don't tell my career manager that, or God Knows I'll end up there!  

4 mags + 1 on rifle has been a standard issue since God Knows When (for one days' worth of combat).  It can, with the issued insert, carry another 10.  As I've said before, 300 rounds ready for a rifleman is a hell of a lot of ammunition.  And remember this is for 8-24 hours.  Anything more than that, and other Load Bearing Equipment would be required.  But, as I've said before (and saying again for newcomers) is that you can only put so much meat on a sandwich before it falls apart.


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## Britney Spears (3 Apr 2006)

The next person who says "The TV is fine for support troops/non-combat arms" should be put on C&P. 

CSS troops DO NOT NEED WEBBING to carry on with their work, I just went to the orderly room and suprisingly enough none of the clerks were wearing their webbing at their desks, and none of the maintainers were wearing webbing while crawling under vehicles either. Were the cooks at the mess hall wearing webbing while slinging potatoes at you? There is no webbing or ammo involved in any of these jobs. Webbing is used to carry ammo, water and radios for FIGHTING and it doesn't matter who is wearing it. So no, the TV is not "fine for CSS troops", because CSS troops are not better shots or more bullet proof than cbt arms troops and the Taliban doesn't really care what your trade is. It absolutely boggles the mind why anyone other than infantry, armoured and engineers would be providing any "input" into the design of our webbing(I'm sure the gunners and meatheads can design seperate 105mm pouches and timmies cup holders on their own).


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## Fusaki (4 Apr 2006)

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> The TV... ...was designed for combat operations.



Then why can't a C9 gunner carry his _combat_ load of ammo (1 box on the weapon and 2 in the vest) and water at the same time? (As far as I know, only a few of us got the one-time issue camelbaks.) Does anyone else see this is a serious flaw in design? 

I always felt that ammo and water were fairly important to "combat operations"... /sarcasm


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Apr 2006)

vonGarvin haven't seen you in the "Stop the kit issue and let soldiers buy their own." thread lately
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41731.30.html


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## KevinB (4 Apr 2006)

VonG -- Fact is you have not been in Combat or unless my Royal snitches are horribly incorrect you comments on combat are worth about what I pay for them - NOTHING.

 I have killed before - I take my job very seriously and as a result I can tell you that your TV is a PIECE OF CRAP for combat operations - end stop.  I honestly am gettting sick of your bullshit responces to this issue - you sound like a careerist scum sucking tool.

There are a few folk on this board who have been in a gunfight or two.  The fact that the Patricia's in Kandahar are chosing to carry that number of mags is based upon the fact they are there doing the job - and your not.

The fact that you have never fired a round in anger gives me the idea that you have no idea how hard it is to shoot at people - that move, are in low light conditions, are under cover etc.  Unlike the PWT people dont act like Fig11's -- rounds get expended.   Plus some people take a lot of rounds -- I know of a specific target that took 11 round of C77 ball from a C8CQB under 20M - he was eventually headshot.

 So I put it to you PLEASE SHUT THE FUCK UP.


Brit -- the point is that CSS folk dont go looking for the EN - they react if nec to the EN - but are not in the CLOSE WITH AND DESTROY job description - the fact that a majority of CSS convoys drive out (at best speed) of ambushes and evac the area instead of counter attacking.


MODS - yes I am full of loathe for VonG.  - I will accept a verbal or whatever - but the guy is a shithead.


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## Britney Spears (4 Apr 2006)

> Brit -- the point is that CSS folk dont go looking for the EN - they react if nec to the EN - but are not in the CLOSE WITH AND DESTROY job description - the fact that a majority of CSS convoys drive out (at best speed) of ambushes and evac the area instead of counter attacking.



Eh, so what? That's not a reason to carry less ammo or to have crap webbing.  If that clerk gets to the point where she needs to change mags, I'm sure her job description will be the last thing she's worried about. ;D

Point being webbing has only 3 purposes in life: 1) Carry ammo and water and chocy bars to kill the enemy(infantry), 2)Carry stuff to blow stuff up with(engineer) 2)Still fit in the hatch without getting stuck(armd ). 

THere is no such thing as webbing for cooks or clerks, so no input from clerks or cooks is required.


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## KevinB (4 Apr 2006)

Brit - yes - but...

You have a system that is just starting to accept that the 4 + 1 mag loadout is not acceptable (the Inf School/CTS  knew pre 2004 since the 6B that spring trialed the plastic insert for the TV) - then you have VG type people who beleive that Napoleonic doctrine is better, or the MND and Unk C/S who think that the FN C1A1 is still in service...

I don't think that any CSS troop or unit will ever get issued 10 mags for the rifle/carbine and 4+ mags for the pistol.  Unfortunate - since in Asymetrical Warfare it is the CSS troops that often become Infanteers out of circumstance.

 However I think fighting and winning the battle for the Infanteers to get a reasonable amount of mags and an appropriate load bearing emsemble is job number 1.


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## vonGarvin (4 Apr 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I have killed before



I have created life: twice.  

(NB: edited to end the madness)


How about them Maple Leafs?


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## Britney Spears (4 Apr 2006)

> Brit - yes - but...



Bah! Fuck you too! You're just a CTS apologist like the rest of them!  ;D

OK Let's all take a step back here before we start cooking off 40mm grenades....


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Apr 2006)

"You're just a CTS apologist like the rest of them!"

Ohhhhh, thems fighting words.


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## vonGarvin (4 Apr 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> "You're just a CTS apologist like the rest of them!"
> 
> Ohhhhh, thems fighting words.


 


Can't wait to see it
"In this corner, wearing the 5000K super MOLLE is *insert name here*, up against, in that corner wearing the CTS issued TV *insert name there*..........
 :argument:


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## vonGarvin (4 Apr 2006)

CFL said:
			
		

> vonGarvin haven't seen you in the "Stop the kit issue and let soldiers buy their own." thread lately
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41731.30.html


Didn't see it.  I'll avoid it.  Only comment: "buy your own?"  Logistical nightmare.  Full stop.


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## mdh (4 Apr 2006)

I don't know about the TV but I love the argument graphic with the clubs  ;D


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Apr 2006)

Hey Kev did you claim your kit as a business expense? ;D


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## Loch Sloy! (17 May 2006)

> I have created life: twice.


 
Well said.

I must admit that I agree with most of what Kevin said, but certainly not how it was put. He has been known to get a wee bit excited now and then...

Does anyone with combat experience feel that the dark green of a Cadpat TW vest over an Arid colour scheme uniform presents an improved aiming point/ sight picture for enemy pers? I can't help but think that  having a load carriage system roughly matching your uniform would  present a less obvious point of aim for the bad guys.


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## COBRA-6 (17 May 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Hey Kev did you claim your kit as a business expense? ;D



Taxes??  :rofl:


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## Infanteer (17 May 2006)

Imperial Stormtroopers don't wear Tacvests....


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## MJP (17 May 2006)

Loch Sloy! said:
			
		

> Well said.
> 
> I must admit that I agree with most of what Kevin said, but certainly not how it was put. He has been known to get a wee bit excited now and then...
> 
> Does anyone with combat experience feel that the dark green of a Cadpat TW vest over an Arid colour scheme uniform presents an improved aiming point/ sight picture for enemy pers? I can't help but think that  having a load carriage system roughly matching your uniform would  present a less obvious point of aim for the bad guys.


Not really...it's not like it's all brown drab desert over there.  It blends in well at a distance and when static you just look like one of the other million rocks around you.


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## KevinB (17 May 2006)

This threads still here?  

 It depends I will agree with what Mike said at distance outside the cities.

I recall looking some nights in and around Kabul and you could not miss the guys in the TV's on Athena.

 That long green and black gun (that they wont let guys paint anymore outside sniper cells) is a pretty big indicator too.


I owe a public appology to Von Garvin, as I've met some people who know him and say that he likes to play the devils advocate and his sarcasm is tough to read the net.

 BUT I STILL HATE THE TV  

Mike - I have two rigs that I will drop off next time I am down - you can give them to deserving troops...


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## vonGarvin (17 May 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I owe a public appology to Von Garvin, as I've met some people who know him and say that he likes to play the devils advocate and his sarcasm is tough to read the net.
> BUT I STILL HATE THE TV


No Problem *shaking hands*.  And I know that nothing I say will make you like anything.
As for the contrast of arid/green: I had green (TW?) combats and a tan camelback (yes, issued)   Then, it hit me like a dart between the eyes: what a wonderful aiming mark.  So, took that cadpat "cam screen dealie", cut a piece out and "covered" the camelback in it in a rudimentary fashion.


As for TV: the Law and Order series rocks, but the Gilmore Girls?  *puke*


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## Scoobie Newbie (17 May 2006)

Kev I'm pretty sure I saw guys on TV this tour with painted hand guards.


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## MJP (17 May 2006)

Painted handguards isn't an issue at all...if you have them no big deal to throw them on.


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## KevinB (17 May 2006)

It was painting the entire gun -- or in one guys case the M230A1 as well  ;D


I call this the RCR Heart Attack






EOTECH -painted TAN - kinda check - seems the paint did not stick well too it 
REAR BIS - painted TAN - check
RAS - painted TAN/CAMO - check
PEQ-2B(Insight 7500) - painted TAN -check
Surefire - painted TAN - check
Vert Grip - Painted TAN - check
Pistol grip - painted TAN -check
Stock -  Painted TAN - check

Noticed reciever has been cleaned (somewhat) of the paint that had been applied



I had painted handguards in Canada...




And these came tan






I disgress -- 
Hey VonG - at least you got Camelbak's - we got 4 / platoon since NSE have divied them up (clerks need to suck water via a camelbak in an office dont-ya-know) to all the units...


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## MJP (17 May 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Mike - I have two rigs that I will drop off next time I am down - you can give them to deserving troops...



Ahh good to hear.  Drop me a line when you'll be around.


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## vonGarvin (19 May 2006)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I call this the RCR Heart Attack


HELP!  SOMEONE CALL 911!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  *errrp*  How can you do drill with that?  It's junk   (yes, this is me being sarcastic)


			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> I disgress --
> Hey VonG - at least you got Camelbak's - we got 4 / platoon since NSE have divied them up (clerks need to suck water via a camelbak in an office dont-ya-know) to all the units...


Yes, get's awfully hot in those air conditioned ACCO trailers.  Could dehydrate and pass out on a keyboard and end up typing stuff like this:
kljasiopdf432n;og;jif


Heaven forbid!


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## foerestedwarrior (19 May 2006)

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> Yes, get's awfully hot in those air conditioned ACCO trailers.  Could dehydrate and pass out on a keyboard and end up typing stuff like this:
> kljasiopdf432n;og;jif
> 
> 
> Heaven forbid!



or they could acidentaly send a only half typed email, if they hit the correct combination of buttons....So I think they need to wear their BEW's at all times while in airconditioning. Rember, saftey first.


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## starlight_cdn (1 Jun 2006)

Got a good buddy in country running a TAG Molle plate carrier from One Shot Tactical. He is running, at least, ten mags primary and four to five mags secondary. The plate carrier worked better getting in and out o' vehicles for rapid dismount  with all the necessary fighting gear. He is a medic.....the infantry are carry more mags and frags. 

Link to TAG Carrier: http://www.oneshottactical.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=oneshot&Product_Code=CR-PlateCarrier&Category_Code=CR

My father has had lunch with the Defence Minister who is under the impression that 5 mags is more than enough. "There is always more in the boat (evidently referring to the aged AVGP)" Doesn't mean much if all your stay behinds got blown up with the veh :


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Jun 2006)

I hope you educate your father who in turn can re-educate the MND.


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## Enzo (1 Jun 2006)

starlight_cdn said:
			
		

> My father has had lunch with the Defence Minister who is under the impression that 5 mags is more than enough.



Oh give me a bloody break!?!  :


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## starlight_cdn (2 Jun 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> I hope you educate your father who in turn can re-educate the MND.




I am putting together of anecdotal and TTP points for my Dad when he dines with our political boss again. Please feel free to PM me relevent AARs and TTPs  to beef up the presentation about the TV and CF tacitical gear. My father is approaching this from within the Conservative Party: he has done some important work for the party. That and he can be very persistant.


Thanks in advance.


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## vonGarvin (2 Jun 2006)

starlight_cdn said:
			
		

> My father has had lunch with the Defence Minister who is under the impression that 5 mags is more than enough. "There is always more in the boat (evidently referring to the aged AVGP)" Doesn't mean much if all your stay behinds got blown up with the veh :


IF and ONLY IF the magazines were all we had to worry about, then a simple fix could be to make the mag pouches big enough to hold 2 in each (3 in each?). Having said that, there is C9 ammo, 40mm Grenades, HE grenades, etc etc.  Can't focus on one thing here (the mags), but what I find ironic is that "5 mags" was "considered" for so long to suffice: even when we were supposed to shoot at human wave assaults by the 1st Guards Tank Division!  
PS: Tell Daddy to say hi to MND for us all here at army.ca


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## starlight_cdn (2 Jun 2006)

vonGarvin said:
			
		

> IF and ONLY IF the magazines were all we had to worry about, then a simple fix could be to make the mag pouches big enough to hold 2 in each (3 in each?). Having said that, there is C9 ammo, 40mm Grenades, HE grenades, etc etc.  Can't focus on one thing here (the mags), but what I find ironic is that "5 mags" was "considered" for so long to suffice: even when we were supposed to shoot at human wave assaults by the 1st Guards Tank Division!
> PS: Tell Daddy to say hi to MND for us all here at army.ca



I agree mags are not the only issue, considering my uncle survived Chinese human wave attacks in Korean at Kapyong in 1951. We really did not learn our lessons. BTW, haven't called him Daddy for over 20 years..... 

I'm going to forward to any PMs I get on the subject to him as ammunition.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Jun 2006)

Who was your dad with?


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## bilton090 (2 Jun 2006)

starlight_cdn said:
			
		

> Got a good buddy in country running a TAG Molle plate carrier from One Shot Tactical. He is running, at least, ten mags primary and four to five mags secondary. The plate carrier worked better getting in and out o' vehicles for rapid dismount  with all the necessary fighting gear. He is a medic.....the infantry are carry more mags and frags.
> 
> Link to TAG Carrier: http://www.oneshottactical.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=oneshot&Product_Code=CR-PlateCarrier&Category_Code=CR
> 
> ...


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## bilton090 (2 Jun 2006)

In one of last firefights the boy's were going though 15+ mag's & looking for more !
you can't put you life on the line thinking I have 10 mag's, the rest are in the veh. Eng's
thinking is the veh. is gone!  What I carry is a crap load of ammo & water, the rest is gravey.
             PC.GEAR is making 3xmag pouches, 6 x mag pouches,plus 1&2's, and Modular
 Chest Rig's, Modular Combat Belt's,&Modular Leg Harness, which all the pouch's are compatable w/ all the systems.
                      
       We have a new 10 lt. hydration system, which you can backpack 2 or3.

                     www.cpgear.com


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## starlight_cdn (3 Jun 2006)

bilton090 said:
			
		

> In one of last firefights the boy's were going though 15+ mag's & looking for more !
> you can't put you life on the line thinking I have 10 mag's, the rest are in the veh. Eng's
> thinking is the veh. is gone!  What I carry is a crap load of ammo & water, the rest is gravey.
> PC.GEAR is making 3xmag pouches, 6 x mag pouches,plus 1&2's, and Modular
> ...



My buddy is a medic  carrying three hundred rounds of 5.56, 65 rounds of 9mm, smk grens and a 35lb med bag. He limited himself to that so he could work on cas. The TAG vest is MOLLE...My personally owned HSGI plate carrier can carry 420 round 5.56mm(14mags), 65 rounds 9mm 5 mags, extra batteries, water and *a med pouch*. All this listed gear is tan, coyote brown or MARPAT arid, not CADPAT temperate.

It was the MND that thought 5 mags with more in the  veh were enough, not anyone on this thread. 

Seriously, Stay safe.


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## Panzer Grenadier (3 Jun 2006)

What About the High Spead Gear - Denali chest rig in Arid Cadpat? -->http://www.davesarmysurplus.com/product_info.php?products_id=551.

I can't recall the specs of the top of my head but I believe it does hold 12 30 round mags.  Some one correct me if I am wrong.


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## KevinB (3 Jun 2006)

It is a nice legacy rig.

Pre MOLLE - pre 911

a lot of gear concepts got changed after that.


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## Kendrick (3 Jun 2006)

Okay, I'm an M203 grenadier, and I'm still using the issued vest.  I like to use the First Samco mag cinches, but I have to put those in my C9 pouch.  I'm also stuffing my 40mm rounds in the grenade pouches, and smoke grenade pouches, and whatever's left in the C9 utility pouch.  Now this is obviously a lousy way to do it, but it's alright I guess, as far as using issued kit goes.  

What kind of rig set up would you suggest?  Should I keep it at that, go for like CP Gear extra 2x or 3x mag pouches, 40mm rounds pouches?  An entirely different chest rig like you people are talking about?  I'm kinda feeling lost at sea as far as the kit that's available and what might work good is concerned.

Now considering that I might deploy either with 1R22R or most likely with 2RCR in February, any body knows how they are as far as using personnal kit goes? (I've seen organizations refuse any use of anything but issued kit).


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## KevinB (3 Jun 2006)

Ditch the First SAMCO cinches - we trialed them in Afghan when I was still in the CF (I should have listened to MarkC and RobAk and got the COL to get redi-mags)
They tend to do damange to the mags over a period of time and also allow foreign debris (poo dust) into the spare mag.  they where the best cinch of the 5 we trialed - but all fall well short of a redi-mag (bolts onto the weapon).
Redi-Mag II 






IF you can ditch the TV and are willing to spend the $ without complaint do it -- the TV is not a good fighting vest.  The TV really is not layed out well to take advantage of the space it occupies.  IF not - then consider getting an aftermarket mod for the Utility/C9 pouches.

I dislike leg rigs - but you may wish to consider it as a method of carryign the M203 grenades or better yet go for the Tactical Tailor waist belt


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## Kendrick (3 Jun 2006)

You mean to basically ditch the pouches, and get one of those CP 3x pouch type things?  Or have them professionally sown on to replace the original chest pouches?  I wouldn't mind going for an entirely different rig, but I have to check what the COs will allow.


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## starlight_cdn (3 Jun 2006)

Kendrick said:
			
		

> What kind of rig set up would you suggest?  Should I keep it at that, go for like CP Gear extra 2x or 3x mag pouches, 40mm rounds pouches?  An entirely different chest rig like you people are talking about?  I'm kinda feeling lost at sea as far as the kit that's available and what might work good is concerned.



The gear should be in Tan, Coyote Brown, or Digital Arid.....none of this silly green or CADPAT in the sand. Get a modular system from a high end company.....modular is adaptable to suit the mission as your role changes. (MOLLE is an almost universal system)

PM sent with my gear guy's contact info...


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## bilton090 (3 Jun 2006)

Kendrick said:
			
		

> You mean to basically ditch the pouches, and get one of those CP 3x pouch type things?  Or have them professionally sown on to replace the original chest pouches?  I wouldn't mind going for an entirely different rig, but I have to check what the COs will allow.


              CP gear has a 3 mags x 2 pouchs = 6mags 
                         All the kit is being made in arid cadpat


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## Infanteer (3 Jun 2006)

Do you get a commission for every post you make advertising CP gear?


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## bilton090 (3 Jun 2006)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Do you get a commission for every post you make advertising CP gear?


                     NO !

      This can be moded for M203's rds. Chest Rig,  all kit to come in Arid Cadpat aswell !


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## paracowboy (3 Jun 2006)

I strongly suggest that anyone who expects to have to fight NOT to buy CP Gear. It's designed for the CP only, IMO.


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## big bad john (3 Jun 2006)

I can recommend dropzone as a Canadian supplier from recent experience.


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## starlight_cdn (3 Jun 2006)

Here are some of the Canadian suppliers that I have personally dealt with:

http://www.davesarmysurplus.com  -has mil discount

http://www.sealsactiongear.com- makes affordable custom gear

http://www.dropzonetactical.com  -will make custom gear-lots of his stuff is in the Sandbox

http://www.smithtac.com- sells BlackHawk, Eagle and Surefire

http://www.roguemodular.com-Canadian made MOLLE

http://www.oneshottactical.com-Tactical Assault Gear, High Speed Gear, EagleIndustries, Oregon Areo, Drop Zone, Blue Force Gear, Wiley X, Tactical Intervention, Global Armour, Camelbak and a lots more. I have purchased more gear and equipment from One Sot Tactical than anyone else.

Have fun checking them out.


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## Fusaki (4 Jun 2006)

I'm looking at buying a chest rig within the next few months. After a bit of research, these are the ones that I've been most interested in:

Eagle Industries Rhodesian Recon Vest:
http://www.davesarmysurplus.com/product_info.php?cPath=42_43&products_id=100
Eagle is one of the most reputable companies in the industry, and the Rhodesian chest rig looks like a solid base for modular pouches.

SOTech/Lightfighter Falcon Chest Rig:
http://www.specopstech.com/st/catalog1.asp?view=product&id=1379
Has 6 built in mag pouches. This reduces the bulk on the chest rig, and frees up room for other stuff. With a 3 mag shingle on it, it seems like a very low-profile way to carry 9 mags.

Esstac Boar:
http://www.davesarmysurplus.com/product_info.php?cPath=42_43&products_id=566
This was also recommended to me, although I don't have as much information on it. Similar to the Falcon, it has 8 integral mag pouches. It is also produced in CADPAT.

Falcon Hydration Yoke:
http://www.specopstech.com/st/catalog1.asp?view=product&id=1276
Works with the Falcon and Esstac Boar, capable of holding a 3L Thermobak complete.

I havn't dealt with any of these companies personally, but after snooping around a bit these names keep popping up.

On a side note, has anyone used the Vicker's 2 Point Sling by Blue Force Gear?
http://blueforcegear.com/product.cfm?type=cat&cat_id=5&prod_id=79
It seems like a pretty snazzy piece of kit. I'm not a fan of 1 point slings, and this looks less "cluttered" then a 3 point sling.


*******EDIT******

Check out my Designing a load bearing system system thread:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/42545.0.html
I probably should have read that one before posting in this one.... 

***** 2nd Edit****

I just re-read the Designing a load bearing ststem thread. I swear I wasn't trying to steal KevinB's thunder!! I posted this before I read his response there!!!


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## Britney Spears (4 Jun 2006)

More importantly,  where you managed to find a Vicker's gun to need a sling for it?


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## bilton090 (4 Jun 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> More importantly,  where you managed to find a Vicker's gun to need a sling for it?


 :rofl:      That was great Britney !     :rofl:      :cheers:


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## Honey_Coombs (29 May 2010)

Kal said:
			
		

> Why anyone would want to wear the issue TV that is barely adequate, when something else superior in design and function is available, is beyond me.  To say that the TV is adequate is quite a stretch, nonetheless.
> 
> Good gear will assist you and should help in the effectiveness of your actions.  The extra seconds saved by speed and ease when drawing a fresh mag from a quality rig rather than the TV can save your life.  Is spending a few hundred bucks worth it?  To some, obviously not, but to others that realise quality gear can help you fight more effectively and can save your ***, it more than worth it.  Even if it is just for one tour.  Besides, should you choose to attend some _extra-curricular_ courses, you sure can use it then.
> 
> You're not fighting alone either.  Your covering your buddies and they're entrusting their lives to you, wouldn't you want to fight the most effectively for them also?



 How is it not adequate? I find it perfectly suited to my needs; perhaps you're being too hard on it. Though, my question still stands - what is wrong with the TV Tac Vest?


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## Scoobie Newbie (29 May 2010)

It is not modular and can't adapt it to changing needs such as carrying 10+ mags comfortably.  You do realize this thread is 4 years old that you just opened.


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## brihard (29 May 2010)

Honey_Coombs said:
			
		

> How is it not adequate? I find it perfectly suited to my needs; perhaps you're being too hard on it. Though, my question still stands - what is wrong with the TV Tac Vest?



Honey_Coombs - Undoubtedly it is perfectly suited to your needs. When I myself was a private in the PWOR I never had to carry more than five magazines. Overseas I carried double that, and I had a light load by virtue of just doing convoys. Riflemen in the battlegroup frequently carried fifteen mags. C9 gunners often had a box on the gun and three more in their vest.

Let's imagine, hypothetically, that you have such a load. You not only need to carry it, but it has to be accessible. The TACVEST does not solve that problem. The magazines are very poorly placed, and you only have easy immediate access to four of them. If you're a C9 gunner, your boxes are off to the side in pouches painfully notorious for making it hard to extract the box.

A proper rig should be modular to allow each soldier to configure theirs accordingly. A right handed shooter will want a different layout from a left handed shooter. A C9 gunner has different needs entirely, as does a C6 gunner. I saw at least one C9 gunner overseas using the old webbing because at least it allowed him to carry more boxes, and get at them more easily.

The reserves all too frequently adapt the kit we carry to the constraints of what we have to carry it in. Up at the Camerons we've had a few exercises where, for shits and giggles, we talked QM into giving everyone ten mags; 'train as you fight'. A few of the older guys who've not been over had conniption fits, but it was a good lesson learned.

The days of carrying five magazines as a standard battle load are over and done with. Our kit needs to adapt to that. In time, and with experience, you'll learn this too.

As a final note, please look at the date a thread was last posted on before you reply. You've revived a seriously dead thread.

Milnet.ca Mentor


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## Loachman (29 May 2010)

You are also asking questions that have already been answered. Please use the Search Function.

Locked, unless somebody has something worthwhile to add.


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