# Single Quarters & Rations (R&Q) [MERGED]



## McG (9 Apr 2001)

*Military barracks may move from Winnipeg to CFB Shilo *
Written by CBC News Online staff 
WebPosted Sun Apr 8 22:31:01 2001 

WINNIPEG - The mayor of Brandon, Manitoba says he couldn‘t be happier about reports that 700 soldiers and their families will be moving from Winnipeg to Canadian Forces Base Shilo. 

"It means spin-offs for business," says Reg Atikinson. "It means spin-offs for local communities, and I also received calls from mayors from two local communities this morning who are equally as excited about this." 

CFB Shilo is a short drive from Brandon, and having the Winnipeg battalion move in would ensure its future. 

Many people have become worried that since German forces moved out last year, the base will have to close. 

Ottawa has yet to confirm the move, but there are reports Defence Minister Art Eggelton will make the announcement this Thursday. 

If Winnipeg‘s Kapyong Barracks closes, there‘s one group ready to lay claim to the valuable property. 

The Brokenhead First Nation says the federal government owes the land to the Ojibway Nation. 

"If it goes up for sale, definitely Brokenhead First Nation has first dibs on it," says Chief Harvey Olson. 

Winnipeg mayor Glen Murray, meanwhile, says he wants city residents to phone their members of Parliament to protest against any such move to close the barracks. 

"I‘m hoping quite frankly that Winnipeggers get outraged by this," he says.


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## Yard Ape (9 Apr 2001)

This is really old news.  With 2 PPCLI already doing most of thier trg in Shilo, this makes excellent fiscal sence.  The Germans are gone so now there is room for the Bn, the facilities are already there, it would save on time and cost to bring the Bn up for exercises, and it would allow for the closing of a large portion of CFB Winnipeg.  If the city is worried, they would do better to focus their lobbying on brining in greater airforce assets.  On the other hand, what‘s in Shilo for the troops after hours?  That can make a big difference in retention.

 Yard Ape


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## RCA (9 Apr 2001)

Now that the subject has come up I can throw my two cents in.

There is alot of disinforamtion coming oui that needs to be corrected. For one Kaypong is closing no question about it. Therefore 2PP is moving anyway. Either to Winnipeg north side (17 Wing) or Shilo. There is no infrastruture at 17 Wing and everything must be built on from scatch with limited space (don‘t forget Base Supply, Base Maint and 38 CBG HQ now needs a home. Two, Shilo is a training range where 2PP will now only be minuites away from plus they can practiclly move into thre German facilities.

There is a lot of whinning in Winnipeg about them losing "their" troops. and nothing to do with practical military matters. Also there seems to be a lot of whinning comming from 2PP also. Moving is a fact of military life. As to the quality of life that they are complaing about.. does that mean that 1 RCHA is a second class unit beacuse they are based at Shilo?


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## McG (13 Apr 2001)

*Winnipeg troops moved to Brandon*
By MELANIE SEAL
Globe and Mail Update
With reports from Canadian Press
POSTED AT 12:29 PM EDT, Thursday, April 12

More than 700 soldiers and 500 civilians will be uprooted as a Winnipeg army closes up shop and moves to Brandon, Man., defence minister Art Eggleton announced Thursday.

The 2nd Battalion the Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry is being transferred to CFB Shilo, east of Brandon. The move will be complete by 2004.

"This was not an easy decision. But it is the decision that makes the most sense for the Canadian Forces and the Canadian taxpayer," Mr. Eggleton said. "Simply put this decision over time will reduce operating costs of land forces in Manitoba."

He said operating costs at the Shilo site will be $1-million a year less than in Winnipeg.

The quality of life for troops and civilians at CFB Shilo was assessed, Mr. Eggleton said. The move will mean approximately 1,500 to 2,000 new jobs near there, he added. 

Winnipeg Mayor Glen Murray, who was absent from the press conference, campaigned against the transfer. The base is Winnipeg‘s fourth largest employer, and its departure will hurt the city‘s economy. Defence department documents estimate the unit contributes $58-million annually to Winnipeg.

The barracks in Winnipeg will be closed, and the 16 hectares of land will be sold through the Canada Land Company. 

In 1999, Germany told Canada it would cease its training operations at CFB Shilo. At that time, the defence department began to research the implications of moving to the base.


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## Terry Warner (16 Apr 2001)

The older I get and the more ‘TI‘ I get, the more I wonder how much spouses‘ lives are taken into consideration.  How may 2PP wives and lovers have good paying career jobs?  How many of those jobs will be available in Shilo?  

I‘d bet a lot of fellows will move to Shilo on Imposed Restrictions (ie free R&Q) rather than lose household income and serenity.  That will work for the married ones, but what about the lifestyle for the young guys?  There is zero fun at the mess these days, and a DUI is too expensive.  What will their quality of life be?  Let‘s hope the community is as fairminded about letting the troops socialize in town on a Friday night as they are about letting them buy groceries on Saturday afternoon.

Terry


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## RCA (16 Apr 2001)

This is the voice of experience beacuse I come from the area...

First, I sympathize but what would be the diffrence if the members were posted to a different battalion. Same diff. Granted Brandon is not the big city, but who ever said the an infantry battalion had to be in a big city to boosts the cities economy. 

Shilo is a training base, Winnipeg is not. How much time, money, and effort went in to moving 2PP to Shilo for training execises. I‘ve watch them drive the M113s down yhe Trans-Canada between Shilo and Winnipeg a distance of 200 kms. They spent most of their ROTO 7 training there.

It is interesting how all of a sudden the Westman area is the wilderness when 1 RCHA has been here and the QOL issues never came up. If is good enough for the gunners why not the infantry.

Brandon is a city of 40,000 and it does not roll up its sidewalks after 6 pm. It has had troops socialize  in the city since WW II. In actual fact, its growth rate is higher than Winnipeg and its taxs lower. It is an excellent place to bring up kids and the crime rate is a lot lower than Winnipeg. Jobs are there to be found.

I think 2PP should kiss the ground that they weren‘t moved to Wainwright. In a couple of years they‘ll wonder what all the fuss was about.


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## Tom Barrett (20 Apr 2001)

Concur with RCA.  Brandon is a great town,  Shilo‘s a good place to work.  They have everything Winterpeg has only smaller, so what?  There‘s suckier places to go.


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## Satelliteslayer (9 Feb 2005)

I am just finalizing a OT to FCS and am looking for information on CFB Borden as well as the course outline for FCS.

First.... what is the situation as far as quarters go for CFSEME? It has been years since I was last in Borden and it wasn't at CFSEME.

Is it 4 per room, 2 per room ??? 

What about internet and computers? in Wainwright everything must fit in your "civvy locker"

Is there any storage locations near by, something like U-Haul and the like.

What is the schedule for a typical day? Morning PT, weekly drill, open locker inspections....

How is the parking? I have my truck are we allowed to bring it on base.

Pretty much any relevant information would be appreciated

Thanks


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## AmmoTech90 (9 Feb 2005)

My time at CFSEME was a while ago, but here's what it was like in the 90s... Stayed in A149 for my 3's and A247 for 5/6/OSQs.

2 to 4 per room depending what shacks, I believe it is all 2 per room now, I heard at least part of 4 A buildings behind the O club had been renovated to 2 per room, A 247 is modular and 2 per room.

Rogers Cable is available with Internet in A 247 don't know about the other shacks.

We had a good size closet per person in each room, in bottom of each A247 mod there are storage lockers, 1/room I think.

No comment on PT, etc, it was too long ago, and varied from course to course, coy to coy.

Lots of parking, no problem with access.

Pray you don't end up in the old fire fighter shacks next to the arena, they suck.


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## copper (10 Feb 2005)

Typically FCS are placed in the Mods, 2 per room, 8 rooms per Mod.  Rodgers cable have most of the barracks hooked now for internet and cable, it can be hooked up within 48hrs at a decent price.  CFSEME isn't ridged about your rooms as long as you don't give them a reason, meaning no food or garbage left about and your bed made.  If you are a QL3 the standards will be set within the first few weeks, they normally leave you alone after that unless you f**** up.  You can leave your computer out as long as its neat.  The mods have ample storage space in the rooms, and a overflow locker in  the basement for each room.
Plenty of storage space for veh and trls.  Your PMV is allowed on the base, but keep in mind that the MPs training school is on the base and they do get road time looking for traffic infractions to write up.
If your VOT from hard Army, PT, Parades and inspections will be a breeze for you.

Keep in mind the finer points are always subj to change depending on who is the school RSM, Coy CSM at the time you arrive.


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## VersuS (19 Feb 2005)

I just finished my FCS QL3 in november. The shack are in A-147. There's 2 mess on base for the junior ranks, the Obidjiwa (cant remember how to spell it) which is located right besides the barracks where you can have free pizza/subs on thursdays evening. 

A typical week:
3 days of PT, which was tyipically sports the monday, cardio on wed. (when they have enough people they split between a fast and a slow jogging group) and on thursday they go for a circuit training (mostly a slower cardio w/pushups and the like...)
We had an inspection/parade on every tuesday, in school, not a big deal.

For the shacks, the staff were okay with us, as long a we kept the rooms relatively clean. QL3's are in A-147, 2 bedrooms. No need to wax the floor, just keep your floor swept, garbage emptied and no food. They allows fridges in the room as long as you submit a memo for them, same thing for Air Conditionning (it get very hot in the shack during summer). Big locker in the room, small bookcase and small table for the TV. Plenty of parking for you car and trailer, if you got one. I even got my dirtbike there, plenty of trails around the base. Just don't do the same as me and get caught by the MP's near the Ammo Dump 
The school for the FCS trade is right next to the junior ranks kitchen and the LAV part of the course is held next to the veh. tech school.

Very easy course. If you review your notes about 30 mins per week, there no way you can have trouble with the course.

If you need anymore info, just ask me


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## BITTER PPLCI CPL (16 Aug 2005)

I don't know what the cost is for troop's in other part's of Canada is, but in CFB Shilo the troops are paying about $350 (for one person) to eat at the kitchen. They are limited to one drink of milk and re-fills are extra, etc...Does anyone out think that's almost criminal! This price is not including rent!


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## Michael OLeary (16 Aug 2005)

$350 per month

= $11.66 per day over a 30 day month
= $17.50 per day if you only conside Mon-Fri for four weeks and exscape the base on weekends.

Cheaper rates than eating downtown I expect.

By comparison, University of Waterloo offers "A meal plan is required in REV and V1 (residences) and costs between $2,650 and $3,450 for two 4-month terms. " - that works out to $331 and $430 per month. (http://www.findoutmore.uwaterloo.ca/housing/mealplans.htm)

Dalhousie University quotes a "19 meal per week" plan at $1315 for the first semester and $1405 for the second semester. Assuming, on average, 4-month semesters, these rates are $328 and $350 per month. (http://www.housing.dal.ca/default.asp?id=190&pagesize=1&sfield=content.id&search=327&mn=1.7.369)


You do propose a valid question on "seconds". You should consult the chain of command to define the allowed controls by kitchen staff on extra helpings. I know that in Meaford a few years ago the staff were allowed to limit serving size, but not how many time a troops returned to the meal line.


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## BITTER PPLCI CPL (16 Aug 2005)

What are they charging the troops for? I spend $200-$250 on food a month and that last's me all month, and I eat a lot. Your telling me a single person's going to eat that much, if so then the kitchen staff should be so cheap!


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## Strike (16 Aug 2005)

The cost of the food in the mess includes preparation, as well as covering the cost of clean-up and waste.

Several bases offer a "pay as you go" system.  This is what I used in Moose Jaw, as I found that I was not eating anywhere near that much a month, what with BBQs and eating off base.


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## Fry (17 Aug 2005)

It's good to hear that I won't be getting seconds, because I need to eat much less. Despite the excercise, I still can't help myself when suppertime comes around.



So basically, if you go out on the weekends, you have to pay more for meals? 11bucks if you eat more food, 17bucks if you eat less?


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## Michael OLeary (17 Aug 2005)

Fry said:
			
		

> So basically, if you go out on the weekends, you have to pay more for meals? 11bucks if you eat more food, 17bucks if you eat less?



It's a monthly rate for rations. If you choose to eat elsewhere, you don't get money back.


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## DrSize (17 Aug 2005)

For that much money a month you would expect it to be an all you can eat!!!


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## dutchie (17 Aug 2005)

$350 a month....and they cook it for you, clean up, and do all the shopping? I'll trade you anyday guys. That's a bar-goon.

edited to add:

That's $3.88/meal, breaky through supper, all you can eat.


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## Strike (17 Aug 2005)

It's a bargain if you don't take large blocks of leave -- a week or more at a time.  Then it can get frustrating.


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## paracowboy (17 Aug 2005)

personally, I don't think the young fellers should be paying Rations at all, or Quarters. Especially for Quarters, considering they're the size of my closet!
But, yeah, I think they're being fleeced. (For that matter, so is anyone living in a 50-60 year old PMQ, and paying rent equivalent to nearby civvilian housing.)


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## Scoobie Newbie (17 Aug 2005)

I'll see you and raise you that we should have the best medical services upon x amount of years in the military and retired and we shouldn't pay taxes either.  Ultimate liability should count for something.


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## Springroll (18 Aug 2005)

So in Shilo it is costing a guy $350/mth for food?

I spend $400 a month and that feeds 5 of us three good squares and 3-4 snacks/day. That feeds two adults a preteen boy, a girl with hollow legs and a my little qarterback 4yr old son.


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## Island Ryhno (18 Aug 2005)

We get f*cking fleeced out here on the island, everything costs more. It costs my wife and I between $400-$500 a month in groceries. As much as I love it here on the rock, I can't wait to get back to the mainland where things are sort of affordable. In sort of the same thread, what's the housing and rental market like in Pet, I have the strangest feeling that's where I'm going next.


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## ArmylogF (25 Aug 2005)

Hey Island Ryhno
I just came from Pet and it is gettting more expensive....we sold our townhouse 2 yrs ago for $105 and it was no way near new, but centrally located. A house is getting to be $130-140+....and that's probably not really close to the base. Check out mls.ca for realestate listings. Keep in mind Pembroke is about 15-20 mins East - where all the shopping is and Chalk River and Deep River is 10-15 mins west...a bit more affordable but there's a nuclear plant or something in Chalk that turns some people off. Black Bay is a nice area...more space and only a few clicks from the base. I loved Pet...don't let others scare you - I'd go back in a minute. Great for families and they pay you to get up and exercise every day!
Godd luck!


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## REJ (25 Aug 2005)

Does anyone know how much it costs to live in barracks in Kingston (room and board)?

Thanks!


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Aug 2005)

check the CFHA site for Kingston and ask them directly.


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## Strike (25 Aug 2005)

> but there's a nuclear plant or something in Chalk that turns some people off



...and Petawawa and Pembroke are down river from it.


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## Warvstar (25 Aug 2005)

Springroll said:
			
		

> So in Shilo it is costing a guy $350/mth for food?
> 
> I spend $400 a month and that feeds 5 of us three good squares and 3-4 snacks/day. That feeds two adults a preteen boy, a girl with hollow legs and a my little qarterback 4yr old son.


Wow!!!! I spend that much just for me, but I eat lots for training purposes.


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## Springroll (26 Aug 2005)

Warvstar said:
			
		

> Wow!!!! I spend that much just for me, but I eat lots for training purposes.



I will also go to 3 or 4 different stores to get the best deal on food.


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## Diver Rob (19 Oct 2005)

Could someone currently attending the AVN course at CFSATE give some idea, details on the accommodations?

How many per room?
What are the rooms like?
can you have high speed internet / cable hook ups?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

PS.  Feel free to give some feedback on the training you are going through as well .. I'll be there in January.


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## belka (23 Oct 2005)

I'm on the AVN course.

3-4 per room. If you are one of the lucky courses, like mine, you'll get 2 per room seperate from the barracks.

If you get the 3-4, they aren't all that big and you have just a closest for your stuff, you'll also get a desk for "studying". The 2's are smaller then the 3-4's, but all they can have is 2 max and you get a larger closet and a bug storage room for your stuff e.i. Golf clubs, hockey gear, car stuff, rifles, clothing, whatever.

Yes, you have can get an internet hook-up, Cable or DSL.

You will enjoy it here. The staff make it very memorable....... :


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## Diver Rob (23 Oct 2005)

That's sweet .. I really don't mind the room situation .. How far are you from everything .. Canex CFSAL etc.. Just trying to place myself .. it's been a while since I've gone to Borden .. hehe ..


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## belka (23 Oct 2005)

Canex is a 30 min walk or a 2 min drive. Dono or care where CFSAL is. ;D


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## D-n-A (23 Oct 2005)

CFSAL is right by barracks T-139 an across the street from the H Club(JRs Mess).


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## Gouki (23 Oct 2005)

It's the perfect location.


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## armyvern (23 Oct 2005)

jutes said:
			
		

> Dono or care where CFSAL is. ;D


Good thing that those that train at CFSAL care about your pay, clothing etc ...
give yourself some 'TI' and your sure to learn not to insult them.....


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## belka (23 Oct 2005)

Ah, that "new" building is CFSAL, its hard to tell cause the letting fell off.  ;D


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## armyvern (23 Oct 2005)

jutes said:
			
		

> Ah, that "new" building is CFSAL, its hard to tell cause the letting fell off.   ;D


My we really are acting uneducated aren't we?


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## belka (23 Oct 2005)

Oh, I didn't know it was manditory to have a 120IQ to post on army.ca. Man, there are a lot of people on this site that need to lighten up.


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## Diver Rob (1 Jan 2006)

Any idease how the Vacation time and Stat holidays are handed out during AVN training ? .. Is there a winter break of some type during March / April or so?

Any info would be appreciated


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## LittlePammy (2 Jan 2006)

Hi all, 
Sorry to cut in on your post but does anyone know what the accomodations are like for someone who is going to be living in single's quarters for 6 months?  I am not on trades training.  Entering as a Cpl and will be there for my 6month OJE.   I have been informed that I will have a single occupancy room and that I could bring a microwave/small fridge/tv/computer and such for my room. Is this true?  How large are these rooms?  Any help would be appreciated as I am due to arrive there the end of January once I finish my BMQ.
Thanks
P


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## just_curious (4 Jan 2006)

Hi does anyone know how the accomations are in CFSCE Kingston?

# people per room
co-ed rooms or not
do they have internet?

Thank you,
question


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## chrisf (4 Jan 2006)

CFSCE - 4 to a room, internet hook up available through commercial provider (There may be exceptions, this is just what I experienced and what I saw). Barracks are co-ed, rooms are not.


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## George Wallace (4 Jan 2006)

questions said:
			
		

> Hi does anyone know how the accomations are in CFSCE Kingston?
> 
> # people per room
> co-ed rooms or not
> ...


I really hate people you can't do anything for themselves.  This question (Reply #13 ) in this thread was only answered in Jutes Reply #1 http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35631/post-285500.html#msg285500

When people do things like this, it really has a negative reflection on our opinion of them.

I know you said "Thanks. Duly noted" last time.  Apparently not the case, though.


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## belka (7 Jan 2006)

Diver Down said:
			
		

> Any idease how the Vacation time and Stat holidays are handed out during AVN training ? .. Is there a winter break of some type during March / April or so?
> 
> Any info would be appreciated



Yes, there is block leave for 2 weeks in July/August and 2 weeks for xmas. Plus all stat holidays and march break you will get a week off if you have enough leave days left. They might also throw in a curve ball and give you leave, only to cancel it with everyone already having made travel/flight and personal/family plans. You will love CFSATE.  ;D


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## Diver Rob (13 Jan 2006)

Well .. I'm here now .. he he .. and officially on PAT until May 06 .. At least you can count on the block leaves in summer and Christmas.  Hope I can find some OJT until the time my course starts up.

If anyone needs info before coming to Borden .. Just ask and I will do my best to answer .. CFRC may not always provide the most accurate info (not necessarily their fault either)

cheers


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## SierraAir (13 Jan 2006)

lol....




> "To the canteen, Dissmissed!"





At least I get to go on tasking to Trenton until my course starts in March.


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## Diver Rob (14 Jan 2006)

Yes OJT can make a big difference in morale .. I'm hoping to get some OJT in Gagetown Until End April .. We'll see


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## pteosborne (21 Jan 2006)

I'm currently in CFSATE (pat platoon). Im' in bldg A-150 (next to the "o" club). 4 to a room here now, its pretty crowded at the moment.
you can get high speed net and cable(digital also). I'm actually fortunate to have a long term tasking to 17 hgr.
but overall it not a bad place.

P.S.  oh yea no alcohol or ladies in barracks :'(


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## Boujie (29 Jan 2006)

I'm on my QL6 at CFSAL right now...

And eff as of Mon, alcohol is now allowed in T-139.

FYI.


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## Diver Rob (29 Jan 2006)

The reasoning behind the no alcohol within the CFSATE barracks is because the are many people here that decide to act like children and are in turn treated that way.  Rightfully so I might add.

Alcohol and women may not be PERMITTED in the barracks, but you would never guess that by the amounts that are seen floating around on any given night or weekend.

We had vending machines at one point that were vandalized and POOF .. removed by the company.

"Children" decided to bash the machine one night and empty it out.

What has the military come to?      :


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## foerestedwarrior (2 Feb 2006)

LittlePammy said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> Sorry to cut in on your post but does anyone know what the accomodations are like for someone who is going to be living in single's quarters for 6 months?  I am not on trades training.  Entering as a Cpl and will be there for my 6month OJE.   I have been informed that I will have a single occupancy room and that I could bring a microwave/small fridge/tv/computer and such for my room. Is this true?  How large are these rooms?  Any help would be appreciated as I am due to arrive there the end of January once I finish my BMQ.
> Thanks
> P



You will probably be in Building T-138. Literaly the same building as the H-Club(JR's mess). Its pretty sweet only having to stumble like 400ft to get into my bed. 

Accomodations are alot like a dorm room in university/college. There are Mods of 10 rooms each. So you will room with up to 9 other people, you share 3 bathrooms, and 3 showers. laundry room(washer and dryer for each mod) and a common room with a sink/bar fridge/microwave, and a TV with cable.

The rooms itself have a single bed(the new ones in the few MODs that have been renovated are pretty comfortable. A nightstand with an alarmclock, and a desk light. There is a desk, 2 closets(you should be able to fit everything you need into the both of them.

Microwave/fridge- The Base cheif sent out an email to all the unit cheifs saying that this building cant have cooking appliances in the rooms. I have been there two years with a fridge/microwave/convection oven/blender, I have never once had a problem with anything. Though if you burn the food in your room, you migth set off the fire alarm. Also remember there is both of these appliances in the common room, but the fridge is only a barfridge, so not alot of room in there.

Computer-Absolutley, Highspeed internet is available from rogers(not sure about DSL from Bell).

TV-If you want to get cable in your room, you can get any level of cable right up to full digital cable from rogers in your room. Also there is about 3 satelite dishes on the roof of the shacks, so I geuse some people have Expressview or whatever.

Send me a PM if you want any more info on it. I have been in singles quarters in Borden for 2 years and a month now.



Man, Diver Down, I have had some crazy parties in the shacks over there with some of the guys on the AVN course.


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## ManWithThePlan (25 Oct 2007)

Just looking for some clarification.

Currently on my LCIS QL3 course in Kingston.  I was told that I have to pay rations and quarters while I am on course.  The problem with that is that travel back to Ottawa every weekend so I only actually eat at the mess from Monday to Friday at most. I was wishing to go on pay as you go but was told as long as I am on course that was not an option. Is this correct?

Also, I am getting married on 23 Dec 07.  I was told that I am still going to have to pay R&Q and will not be entitled to separation pay after I get married because marital status changes do not affect anything if it occurs after your COS date.  My course runs from 15-Oct-07 to 19-Mar-08.

I haven't been able to get a straight answer.  

Thanks for any help


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## PiperDown (25 Oct 2007)

Wow you are going on course and travelling backwards in time?
LOL (sorry, couldn't resist.. you put Oct 07 till Mar 07 as your dates.. instead of Mar 08)

anyway.. I am pretty sure you will be entitled to separation pay effective the date you are married (or common law). I would talk to the OR about this.. although, I know what a pain the ass the OR at CFSCE can be, and I know they treat students like second class citizens. (as you can tell, I spent some time at CFSCE).
I was in the same situation as you and received all the benefits as of my change of status date.
As for R&Q when you go home to Ottawa for the weekend.. That is a lost cause.. You are obligated to pay, even if you don't eat a meal at the mess. Look on the bright side, as least you live close enough to drive home for the weekends.. (PS, when you start to receive separation pay, they will deduct the weekends from your allowance if you go home to Ottawa.. you cant collect separation pay while your wife is sitting next to you ! )


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## SupersonicMax (25 Oct 2007)

PiperDown said:
			
		

> Wow you are going on course and travelling backwards in time?
> LOL (sorry, couldn't resist.. you put Oct 07 till Mar 07 as your dates.. instead of Mar 08)
> 
> anyway.. I am pretty sure you will be entitled to separation pay effective the date you are married (or common law). I would talk to the OR about this.. although, I know what a pain the *** the OR at CFSCE can be, and I know they treat students like second class citizens. (as you can tell, I spent some time at CFSCE).
> ...



Not true anymore.  They remove 2 days of separation expense every month, no matter if you took days of leave.  So you can go a whole month on leave at home and still get the separation expense.

Are you TD, Attached Posted or Posted there?

Max


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## ManWithThePlan (26 Oct 2007)

I am currently posted to Kingston.  The separation expense isn't the big issue that I have. I could live without that. However the Rations are killing my pay.


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## PiperDown (26 Oct 2007)

The only way you are going to get out of paying rations while on course in Kingston is to move out of the shacks.
I know of a few guys who got together on previous courses and went into a PMQ together.. Although, your course is not that long (POET and LCIS used to be almost 2 years) so, your chances of getting one could be pretty slim.

Cheers,

PS.. I know a bunch of your LCIS instructors.. I could put in a good word for you !! LOL >  (jokes)


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## ManWithThePlan (26 Oct 2007)

What about if I have my name on a lease with my Fiance in Ottawa.  Would that get me out of paying for quarters?


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## PiperDown (26 Oct 2007)

Unless you plan to go home every night.

What I meant by moving out of the shacks, was getting a local place. They would never authorize you to drive back and forth from ottawa everyday for course.
But, if you are listed as married, and are collecting seperation expense, you will not have to pay for R and Q. The CF does not expect you to pay for two residences at the same time. However, you are POSTED to kingston, so you have to have a residence within the geographical region on Kingston.. which for you, is in the shacks.
If you status changes to married while you are on course there may be a large amout of paperwork to be done before you can collect seperation expense.. (and thus get free rations and quarters) but, in your case, it would be worth pursuing.


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## Sig_Des (26 Oct 2007)

Sheldon,

hope it works out for you. When are you and your Fiance heading home for the wedding?

I should be back in Ottawa on or about Dec 15th.

Say hey to N for me!


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## Gunner98 (26 Oct 2007)

From left field:

If you put in a weekend leave pass with the Ration Strength Yes Box checked _perhaps you could convince the RMS clerks_ not to charge you for weekend rations. ;D


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## Sparkplugs (12 Nov 2007)

I'm here in Borden, also having to pay rations, when I only eat on average 20 meals a month here.  

People on my course did the getting married thing now, partially to see if they could get off paying R&Q...  they could not get separation pay, until they got their next posting.  And the only way you could get out of paying R&Q was to get a PMQ... here in Borden they won't even let you have an apartment, you still have to pay rations.  And the only way to get a Q is to get married or be common-law, or have a kid with you.  Us single people can't even get together to share a Q.  I'm told it's because Borden is crowded, so I don't know how that goes in Kingston, but look into getting a Q with your pals if you can.


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## Klc (12 Nov 2007)

Word is (at least at 3 SQN) CFSCE - no living out on course for single members - makes it hard to give you inspections when your not there 

Would be good to know if its possible, seeing as I'm back here for LCIS 3's in a month or so... But judging on the fun you guys down the hall have been getting with those inspections of yours, I can't see them letting me get out of that, lol.

Best of luck with getting your monies taken care of.


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## Bcause Isaidso (23 Nov 2007)

sorry to hijack your thread but I have a simmilar  question

I am ex-mil..my spouse is attending poet sometime in the spring...basic starts around 17 Jan...we have a 10 mos old and are hoping to get a Q.
I had not thought this pos until cfrc mentioned it and now seeing it on this thread.
does anyone know the procedure and timeline?
we were going to rent an apt locally just so he can see the little fella, but if living out of shacks is auth that would be great.


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## rmc_wannabe (12 Feb 2008)

I couldn't find any thread in regards to this topic, so here is the situtation (as per leaflet handed out by F&Q, their link is down).

Effective 1 April 2008 there will be a Re-Linking of rations to quarters in the Edmonton Garrison. Members are to choose one of the following meal plans that best suits their requirements and lifestyle (see below). Those not wishing to "take advantage" of re-Linking will be eligible for PLD as they move out onto the economy.

Plan 1 - Meals provided 7 days per week

Plan 1A - Full rations ($425.25 per month, $15.19 per day)

Plan 1B - Full month 2 meals/day ($364.50 per month, $12.15 per day

Plan 2- Meals provided Mon - Fri

Plan 2A - Mon - Fri 3 meals/day($303.75 per month, $15.19 per day)

Plan 2B - Mon - Fri 2 meals/day ($$243.00 per month, $12.15 per day)
(Note: these prices do not include table serive at the Officer's Mess)

Plan 2B, likely the most popular allows members to eat 2 meals per day, Monday to Friday, and not be compelled to pay for meals on weekends when they are not in the area. 

Any thoughts on this ? Has this happened before at other bases or are there other bases currently under this system?


DISCLAIMER: This post is not in itself a rant, therefore does not welcome rants or "this is bullshit" statements. If you have something to contribute, by all means.

Edit: Mods - if I'm in the wrong lane, feel free to relocate to the right forum


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## TN2IC (12 Feb 2008)

It should be pay as you go system. Simple as that.


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## rmc_wannabe (12 Feb 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> It should be pay as you go system. Simple as that.



That is one of 2 status quo options, Full or pay as you go. Some view this as an administrative way to start forcing members out of the shacks due to the limited facilities on base.


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## TN2IC (12 Feb 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> That is one of 2 status quo options, Full or pay as you go. Some view this as an administrative way to start forcing members out of the shacks due to the limited facilities on base.



There shouldn't be forced rations on troops living in shacks. Paying for the rations too... wouldn't you think somehow rats would be free to the troops? The food has to be made anyways... if one soldier is eating or 3 thousands. I know hay boxes cost money, but should it come out of the mess budget? Not the course or the soldier him/herself? It seems more and more the CF is becoming more of a business than pawns to the federal government. It's all about cost captures. 

Well I guess I can look at it in another view. As "if it works, it must be right" idea. 
I guess if the rats were free, so should the housing/PMQ/shacks. At less the MIR isn't charging us... yet.
Now as a minor question to some: On ship, does the sailor pay for his 10 o'clock soup? 

All I can really say as a sum up: An Army travels on its stomach. _~Napoleon Bonaparte_



Edit for Spelling


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## GAP (12 Feb 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> It should be pay as you go system. Simple as that.



That's not realistic......remember when you blew your paycheque payday weekend and scratched through the next 2 weeks.....it's no different nowadays for the guys/gals in the shacks....


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## TN2IC (12 Feb 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> That's not realistic......remember when you blew your paycheque payday weekend and scratched through the next 2 weeks.....it's no different nowadays for the guys/gals in the shacks....



What it should be... is a card you swipe with each time you go in. And at the end of the month, however many times you went during meals hours you are charge that amount.




The meal card at full charge is a non practical idea. (I understand where Edmonton is coming up with their idea.)

What if the member deploys out to sea or in the field? What if they are gone in a emergency? I'm sure there is no one at the counter after hours to freeze your card.



Edit to add the last bit.


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## aesop081 (12 Feb 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> Now as a minor question to some: On ship, does the sailor pay for his 10 o'clock soup?



No. And a soldier doesnt pay for his IMPs in the field either.


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## GAP (12 Feb 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> What it should be... is a card you swipe with each time you go in. And at the end of the month, however many times you went during meals hours you are charge that amount.



That's a more realistic idea, plus it tracks their loads for future buying/preparing...


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## Michael OLeary (12 Feb 2008)

Perhaps part of the problem is an inconsistent expectation that rations will be available to all who wish to "pay as you go".  If there are (pulling numbers out of thin air here) 3000 soldiers on a base and 1000 pay for rations off their pay and 2000 expect to be able to go to the kitchen whenever they want and pay as they go, then how many meals does the kitchen prepare?

If the kitchen underestimates and those who paid up front are the ones without satisfactory service or the food choices or amounts they expect for the money they already agreed to pay, whose fault is that?

If the kitchen then overestimates and a lot of food it discarded, who pays for that, and whose fault is it?

Should the chain of command be required to inform the kitchen a week ahead when their troops might be in camp, or not, so that the KO can make realistic estimates of meal requirements?

Flexibility has its common sense limits too.


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## TN2IC (12 Feb 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> No. And a soldier doesnt pay for his IMPs in the field either.




Thanks for the quick reply. 

I was more referring to being "The CF cook serving warm food on a plate service." Not field rats, if you misunderstood me. IMP's and soup are totally different topic in my view. 

Then brings in another question, the cooks, should they have to pay also? Even if they cook all day?



Food for thought...

Hehehe... I made a funny.  ;D


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## GAP (12 Feb 2008)

So if they introduced the card system to all users they could track consumption to combine with (it would seem) reasonably accurate budgeting of say....the past five or three years, it would give them more accurate estimates. 

The users of the cards would pay/not pay depending on the rules that presently exist....

ps: there are no starving cooks out there.... ;D


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## 1feral1 (12 Feb 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> I couldn't find any thread in regards to this topic, so here is the situtation (as per leaflet handed out by F&Q, their link is down).
> 
> Effective 1 April 2008 there will be a Re-Linking of rations to quarters in the Edmonton Garrison. Members are to choose one of the following meal plans that best suits their requirements and lifestyle (see below). Those not wishing to "take advantage" of re-Linking will be eligible for PLD as they move out onto the economy.
> 
> ...



Don't you have PAYG (pay as you go), with a swipe card?

The lads have the option here of paying as you go, or full rats 7 days a week. Most choose PAYG.

I think its unfair to shame/force pers to pay for things they are not going to use.

Sounds like yet again a large civilian influence, converting a Defence Force into a business.

Sucks, or blows, you decide.

Cheers,

Wes


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## BinRat55 (12 Feb 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> Paying for the rations too... wouldn't you think somehow rats would be free to the troops? The food has to be made anyways... if one soldier is eating or 3 thousands. I know hay boxes cost money, but should it come out of the mess budget? Not the course or the soldier him/herself? It seems more and more the CF is becoming more of a business than pawns to the federal government. It's all about cost captures.



Wow.  At the risk of sounding... well, sarcastic... why shouldn't I eat free too?  Maybe i'm reading you wrong,  ??? but what a can of worms to be opening in a forum such as this!!  There seems to be so much wrong with that statement...


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## rmc_wannabe (12 Feb 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> What it should be... is a card you swipe with each time you go in. And at the end of the month, however many times you went during meals hours you are charge that amount.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



More commonly, what if the member is on block leave? You're still paying for food that isn't making it downrange, and spending more money paying for food that you can consume cause it isn't 400 miles away (in my case at least). 

And Michael I get where you're coming from, however I've been through the mess nights where they've under prepared or have over prepared, its hard to balance out, but I don't think forcing rations will achieve more of a balance .


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2008)

Excellent points Michael. No need to worry about forecasting for Thursday night steak nights -- you just know every single member on base is showing up for that meal.


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## MJP (12 Feb 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> What if the member deploys out to sea or in the field? What if they are gone in a emergency? I'm sure there is no one at the counter after hours to freeze your card.



If you deploy to the field when you get back you submit a ration remit through your clerk to recover the money from the days you were gone.


I don't believe this is an Edmonton Garrison initiative but rather a CF wide one.  We had a few emails and points in the O-grp about the whole thing, and everything pointed towards this being CF wide rather than a local initiative.

As for being on block leave you are not authorized to eat in the mess hall while on annual leave so that point is moot.  The calculation for daily/monthly/yearly rates take your annual leave into account.  As stated here http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/208-01_e.asp



> Charges for rations prescribed by  QR&O 208.505 contain a built-in
> remission factor for leave (excluding rehabilitation and special leave
> forming part of terminal leave), statutory holidays and time off.
> Therefore, a member subject to deductions for rations under QR&O


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## Michael OLeary (12 Feb 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> And Michael I get where you're coming from, however I've been through the mess nights where they've under prepared or have over prepared, its hard to balance out, but I don't think forcing rations will achieve more of a balance .



Keep in mind that there is one other undesirable alternative that would satisfy the more ardent bean-counters .... _"if you haven't pre-paid or made other prior arrangements, don't expect to be fed in a CF kitchen."_

Some poor bastard is trying to find a workable, affordable solution.


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## TN2IC (12 Feb 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Perhaps part of the problem is an inconsistent expectation that rations will be available to all who wish to "pay as you go".  If there are (pulling numbers out of thin air here) 3000 soldiers on a base and 1000 pay for rations off their pay and 2000 expect to be able to go to the kitchen whenever they want and pay as they go, then how many meals does the kitchen prepare?
> If the kitchen underestimates and those who paid up front are the ones without satisfactory service or the food choices or amounts they expect for the money they already agreed to pay, whose fault is that?
> If the kitchen then overestimates and a lot of food it discarded, who pays for that, and whose fault is it?
> Should the chain of command be required to inform the kitchen a week ahead when their troops might be in camp, or not, so that the KO can make realistic estimates of meal requirements?
> Flexibility has its common sense limits too.




My idea is the base, itself, has a budget to the mess. If the mess overestimates that day, then it gets discarded or "reused".
The CF is given a budget for a reason.


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## GregC (12 Feb 2008)

As a living in soldier in Edmonton, here are my two huge problems with this system:

1) If the Edmonton mess facility was on par with, say, Trenton's mess, I wouldn't have much of a problem with this forced ration business. But the thing is, there is a reason I haven't eaten at the Edmonton Garrison mess since I first got posted here, and that's because the food is subpar. I truly don't understand how this mess has been allowed to slip when I compare it to other bases around the country.

2) I know I should be used to it by now, but I'm not, and I'm still sick of being treated like a child by the military. They see fit to send me overseas and trust me with a multitude of readied weapons, but they can't seem to trust me to eat healthy and well on my own (troops eating *"only ramen noodles and pizza"* was quoted in an email posted in the lines).

So, in conclusion, pay as you go should be the norm. If the mess wants to draw in more people, up the quality of food to match the current prices, or drop the prices to reflect current quality in food.


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## George Wallace (12 Feb 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> What it should be... is a card you swipe with each time you go in. And at the end of the month, however many times you went during meals hours you are charge that amount.



Brilliant idea.  And we'll only call in the cooks once you swipe your card, and then they can start preparing you meal.  Would you like your breakfast/lunch/supper as soon as you enter the meal line or after a couple of hours, when they have peeled the potatoes for the number of people who swiped for potatoes, heated up the stoves for the number of people who decided to swipe their card, thawed out the meat for the persons who decided to swipe their cards.   Really practical on paper.  Doesn't work in Real Life.

Food has to be prepared in advance, for a large number of people, so that said people can get into the Messhall and get out in under an hour.  To pay as you go, the way that you insist, it totally inpractical and will cause several hours of delays with each meal served.  So everyone decides to go to Micky D's for lunch, what do you think the Messhall has to do with all the food it prepared?  Who pays for this food?  The people living in quarters pay for it, or it isn't there.  If it isn't there, then there is no requirement for cooks.  No requirement for cooks, means no hot meals in the Field or on ship.  

You have a lot to learn about how many things are financed and how budgets work.  The food has to be paid for by someone.  It also has to be prepared prior to someone swiping a card.  Even with all the "Bean Counters" and their brilliant ideas to cut costs, there will always be waste from the kitchens; or someone is going hungry.


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> More commonly, what if the member is on block leave? You're still paying for food that isn't making it downrange, and spending more money paying for food that you can consume cause it isn't 400 miles away (in my case at least).
> 
> And Michael I get where you're coming from, however I've been through the mess nights where they've under prepared or have over prepared, its hard to balance out, but I don't think forcing rations will achieve more of a balance .



Hmmm, correct me if I'm wrong , but do not most all Bases who provide the 7 & 3 full weekly/monthly meal plan cease rations during periods of leave for those members?? I've seen bases where the OR ceased upon processing the leave pass ... and others where the meal card was turned in so that it couldn't be used during these peiods ... and the members not charged during their block leaves/absences on courses, tours etc.

Has this changed?


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## Michael OLeary (12 Feb 2008)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> More commonly, what if the member is on block leave? You're still paying for food that isn't making it downrange, and spending more money paying for food that you can consume cause it isn't 400 miles away (in my case at least).



Actually, I believe the ration cost calculations have always factored in the expectation that the members is away for a certain period throughout the year.

I stand to be corrected, is there an experienced KO or Food Svcs Offr on the forum that can educate us?


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## George Wallace (12 Feb 2008)

When Living-in members go on Block Lve, they turn in their Meal Cards to the OR and they are taken off Ration Strength.  Those numbers are passed on to the Kitchens.


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> My idea is the base, itself, has a budget to the mess. If the mess overestimates that day, then it gets discarded or "reused".
> The CF is given a budget for a reason.



Different budgeting system for the kitchens than for your QMs.

Kitchens are buying perishable items --- let's just say that if there was NOT a ton of wastage etc occuring with the pay as you go way of doing business ... they wouldn't be seeking alternatives to the situation.

And ... why should the single guys/gals (unless on course, duty, deployed, field, asea etc ... like the married folk who then have theirs covered too) eat for free out of the CF budget?? We married folks make the same and we have kids to provide groceries for -- ergo we should eat for free too so that we can buy more groceries for our families.


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## rmc_wannabe (12 Feb 2008)

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> Hmmm, correct me if I'm wrong , but do not most all Bases who provide the 7 & 3 full weekly/monthly meal plan cease rations during periods of leave for those members?? I've seen bases where the OR ceased upon processing the leave pass ... and others where the meal card was turned in so that it couldn't be used during these peiods ... and the members not charged during their block leaves/absences on courses, tours etc.
> 
> Has this changed?



If there is some Admin trick to it I haven't heard of, then I stand corrected. All i know is that i was on full rations when I was on Christmas leave, and buying groceries for myself back home at the same time .... kinda redundant no?


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## MJP (12 Feb 2008)

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> Hmmm, correct me if I'm wrong , but do not most all Bases who provide the 7 & 3 full weekly/monthly meal plan cease rations during periods of leave for those members?? I've seen bases where the OR ceased upon processing the leave pass ... and others where the meal card was turned in so that it couldn't be used during these peiods ... and the members not charged during their block leaves/absences on courses, tours etc.
> 
> Has this changed?



The CFAO hasn't changed.......I modified my post above to include the link.


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## Michael OLeary (12 Feb 2008)

MJP said:
			
		

> The CFAO hasn't changed.......I modified my post above to include the link.



And here's the related DAOD:

DAOD 30-12  Provision and Sale of Food Services



> General
> 
> To support the mission of the DND and the CF, personnel and facilities have been allocated to provide public food services to DND funded customers. The operating budget for each CF organization providing public food services is based on the cost of food services that must be provided at public expense. The standard allowance rates for public meals and increments are promulgated annually and represent the standard food cost for one meal-day in accordance with established standards.
> 
> ...


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> When Living-in members go on Block Lve, they turn in their Meal Cards to the OR and they are taken off Ration Strength.  Those numbers are passed on to the Kitchens.



That's what happens here. I was just wondering if it were still the standard. Thanks George.


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## TN2IC (12 Feb 2008)

Army Vern~ Everyone loves Steak night! I even sneak over. Or in the dog house.

Michael O`Leary~ I agree with your 2nd last statement.

George Wallace~ Practical on paper yes... but if there was some numbers they could play with. Like an average the year before. Or average it out per unit. And go off that. Or some magical formula. You always make a intresting points on your replies. And yes I do need to learn a tad more about the budgets. I do invoicing in my job at less 3 times a week. So I know the "business like feeling".


MJP~ I wasn't honestly aware you could do such a thing. Now I know. Good information.


BinRat55~ You should be able to walk in the mess and help yourself to a meal at DND cost. Just don't try it now because I said so.


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## X Royal (12 Feb 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Should the chain of command be required to inform the kitchen a week ahead when their troops might be in camp, or not, so that the KO can make realistic estimates of meal requirements?



Michael: I believe that the chain of command does have a certain responsibility. I'm not referring to 5 or 10 people but if a group the size of a company or battalion is scheduled to be away than the KO should be informed of the fact as soon as possible. Even if the absence is unscheduled, if the numbers warrant it the KO should be notified as soon as possible.

Best Wishes: Rick


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## Michael OLeary (12 Feb 2008)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Michael: I believe that the chain of command does have a certain responsibility. I'm not referring to 5 or 10 people but if a group the size of a company or battalion is scheduled to be away than the KO should be informed of the fact as soon as possible. Even if the absence is unscheduled, if the numbers warrant it the KO should be notified as soon as possible.
> 
> Best Wishes: Rick



Yes, when units or subunits will be away from base, I was referring to the expectation that the CoC might be able to further refine numbers for kitchen forecasting for those who think the solution here is more staff effort to ensure the kitchens meet their wishes.


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2008)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Michael: I believe that the chain of command does have a certain responsibility. I'm not referring to 5 or 10 people but if a group the size of a company or battalion is scheduled to be away than the KO should be informed of the fact as soon as possible. Even if the absence is unscheduled, if the numbers warrant it the KO should be notified as soon as possible.
> 
> Best Wishes: Rick



This is usually the case.

If the Bn is going out  to the field on ex etc, then their QM is submitting their nominal roll into the system for IMP entitlement for that ex. Most kitchens are well aware of planned ex/ops etc.

Regarding unscheduled ... that's a little bit more difficult to deal with ... especially if it's a "today" kind of deal or a "gone for the next week" kind of deal, because the food for that next week is already ordered (possibly mostly delivered) and thus ... spoilage or no spoilage, the kitchen is obligated to pay the contractor. That's part of the nature of the CFs business though.

I'm sure that the Kitchen here had a huge write-off which had to be "eaten" when 2RCR found themselves deployed to NS in the aftermath of Hurricane Juan ... or 4ESR to New Orleans/Turkey with DART. In the same manner --- dom ops may find the kitchen innudated with pers requiring feeding unannounced and unscheduled. 9/11 saw me manning the cot by my desk for a week til the fly-away kit was gone and eating in the Yukon Galley the entire time (and there were a huge number of "mes" doing the same thing).

Dom Op necessity for write-off is a different matter entirely from that of "people may show to eat tonight, but they may not." That's the situation they are trying to fix. The others (such as ex) can be and are forecasted, dom ops are unavoidable.

Single guys/gals living in shacks --- not showing, is obviously being considered by some to be "avoidable."


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## George Wallace (12 Feb 2008)

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> Regarding unscheduled ... that's a little bit more difficult to deal with ... especially if it's a "today" kind of deal or a "gone for the next week" kind of deal, because the food for that next week is already ordered (possibly mostly delivered) and thus ... spoilage or no spoilage, the kitchen is obligated to pay the contractor. That's part of the nature of the CFs business though.
> 
> I'm sure that the Kitchen here had a huge write-off which had to be "eaten" when 2RCR found themselves deployed to NS in the aftermath of Hurricane Juan ... or 4ESR to New Orleans/Turkey with DART. In the same manner --- dom ops may find the kitchen innudated with pers requiring feeding unannounced and unscheduled. 9/11 saw me manning the cot by my desk for a week til the fly-away kit was gone and eating in the Yukon Galley the entire time (and there were a huge number of "mes" doing the same thing).
> 
> Dom Op necessity for write-off is a different matter entirely from that of "people may show to eat tonight, but they may not." That's the situation they are trying to fix. The others (such as ex) can be and are forecasted, dom ops are unavoidable.



Not as big a problem as you portray.

Troops still need to eat on those "unexpected" deployments.  Fresh rations would be diverted by the Ration Depot to the Units deployed, rather than sent to the Kitchens, or budgeted from the Kitchens to the Field Kitchens deployed.


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## TCBF (12 Feb 2008)

Rations are assessed monthly based on eleven months.  In other words, you are paying for eleven months rations over twelve months. Ergo - no remit for annual lv.

Regarding embarcation/disembarcation and special leave, THAT requires a remit.


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## George Wallace (12 Feb 2008)

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> Suggest you speak with your chain of command or Coy/Sqn clerk if you have one.  You should receive a ration remit or have been ceased rations and (as they do in Pet) turned in your meal card in order to get your Christmas leave pass.  That being said, oversights do happen, so if this is the case, you should still be able to recover the rations you paid during a period of leave when you were away from the base (and your leave pass reflected same).



That being said, if you were at fault, then you really shouldn't complain.  If the system failed to inform you, you should be able to get a remit; but if you failed to heed their warning, then the bill is in your hands.


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not as big a problem as you portray.
> 
> Troops still need to eat on those "unexpected" deployments.  Fresh rations would be diverted by the Ration Depot to the Units deployed, rather than sent to the Kitchens, or budgeted from the Kitchens to the Field Kitchens deployed.



Ration Depots haven't existed for many a year decade plus George. I last worked in one as a Pte -- and I'm old now.

Rations (fresh/frozen for meals) are now handled by B Foods ... and are ordered by them, and then direct delivered by the supplier to the Base Kitchen facility. 

Thus, that food MUST be paid for, regardless of whether there is a last minute deployment, or every living in member decides to eat all his meals out of the Mess that week.

We at Supply ship out the old Ops Stock IMPs for those dom ops and deployments which are unscheduled. 

Forget not also, that once a troop is deployed/field/asea their meals (ie fresh is flying kitchen is deployed) is at public expense and thus coming out of the CF budget, not the Kitchens operating budget ... their budget comes from the people who dine at the kitchen. In my scenario below where I had to eat at the Yukon Galley ... the Kitchen recovered the costs of my meals into their coffers from the OP Apollo (CF) budget.


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## rmc_wannabe (12 Feb 2008)

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> Suggest you speak with your chain of command or Coy/Sqn clerk if you have one.  You should receive a ration remit or have been ceased rations and (as they do in Pet) turned in your meal card in order to get your Christmas leave pass.  That being said, oversights do happen, so if this is the case, you should still be able to recover the rations you paid during a period of leave when you were away from the base (and your leave pass reflected same).



Guess my OR is getting a visit from me tomorrow


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## meni0n (12 Feb 2008)

Doesn't Pet got pay as you go? You had the option of going at he beginning of each month and put as much as you wanted on the card and then every time you ate you swiped the card. If you still had any money left at the end of the month, the balance was transfered over to the new month.


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## George Wallace (12 Feb 2008)

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> Ration Depots haven't existed for many a year decade plus George. I last worked in one as a Pte -- and I'm old now.
> 
> Rations (fresh for meals) are now handled by B Foods ... and are direct delivered by the supplier to the Base Kitchen facility.



Could be that in the streamlining of the Food Services, the Larger Kitchens now handle all: ie: on most bases now, all box lunches and hay boxes are out of the Combined/Main Mess.  Fresh Rations for Exercise are also drawn that way.  In essence, the Mess now acts as the Ration Depot on the larger bases.


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Could be that in the streamlining of the Food Services, the Larger Kitchens now handle all: ie: on most bases now, all box lunches and hay boxes are out of the Combined/Main Mess.  Fresh Rations for Exercise are also drawn that way.  In essence, the Mess now acts as the Ration Depot on the larger bases.



For on-site exs yes, but it's a different budget.

Exs on-site are forecast. The CF budget then steps in to pay for the meals you're talking about above because the member is now entitled to eat at Crown expense. Your Unit provides them your Units fin code (or the op/ex fin code) and your Unit pays that kitchen to feed your pers. 

Money is transferred from the CF budget TO the kitchen to cover their associated costs for providing these meals. 

The Kitchens budget is not Crown money per se --- the kitchen is essentially paid BY the Crown to feed troops in the field. Think of them more as a "contractor" (The DAOD may explain it more fully than I am finding myself able to).

Troops living in the shacks (not in the field or on ex/op etc) --- get to pay the Kitchen (ie the contractor) themselves. When the Kitchen orders food for them ... and they don't show ... the kitchen still needs to pay for them and the food they didn't eat. 

One can almost liken it to a restaurant: Sometimes business is good and you have no spoilage, sometimes you have tonnes of spoilage because everyone ate at McDs that week. The difference is, if you ARE a restaurant on civvie street -- you've got this great set-up with Revenue Canada whereby you can write-off the costs of that uneaten/spolied food as a business expense as the "cost of doing business". 

Of course, Base Kitchens can't do that (write things off when they file their business tax returns), thus the only option is to decrease in any way they can -- the amount of write-offs due to spoliage etc that is being incurred because living in troops are _choosing_ not to show to eat, despite the fact that the kitchen has to operate on the basis of "they MIGHT" show up to eat.


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## Nfld Sapper (12 Feb 2008)

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> Ration Depots haven't existed for many a year decade plus George. I last worked in one as a Pte -- and I'm old now.
> 
> Rations (fresh/frozen for meals) are now handled by B Foods ... and are ordered by them, and then direct delivered by the supplier to the Base Kitchen facility.
> 
> ...



Ah that would explaing why I get old(er) rations when in the field at Gagetown  ;D


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## Sig_Des (13 Feb 2008)

Just to clarify a couple things. Until this new policy takes effect, there is a Cash-card /PAYG option at CFB Edmonton.

And I agree with some of the previous posters, the mess here is Shyte. Think a lot of deep fried crap. I got off rations PDQ after getting here.

Herein lies the rub;

a) The shacks here are at capacity, or damn near to it. Many Sgts and up who were here training for 1-08 are/were staying in hotels downtown. This linked R&Q will likely get some people to start clearing out. I'm already looking at places.

b) While many people know how to eat well on their own, there is only so much one can do with a rice/pressure cooker, microwave, and kettle. Confection oven mikes and hotplates are a no-no. And let's be honest, while some of us may be able to eat healthy like that, a lot of the new people coming in are in the 18-20 range, many there first time away from home, partying it up, and living off microwave dinners and mr. noodles. This can seriously lead to health issues.

Now, I don't want to go to the mess. I can only eat 3 meals a day, and like I said, they're not healthy meals. For physically active people, most nutritionists suggest 5-6 small meals a day. And I can do that for a price comparable to what I'll have to pay here for R & Q.

Besides that, the bde here does what it can to alleviate the financial burden. There's a 3 year entry to Promotion zone to Cpl. And with the PLD coming into effect (and I know it's not as good as people thought it would be) you should be able to afford something in town. Me, I'm already looking.

I don't like it, but I see where it's coming from, and I've decided to try a different living option.


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## Long in the tooth (13 Feb 2008)

Slightly off topic... I am due to be posted to Edmonton this APS (I'll believe it when I have my posting message).  Are quarters readily avail, or as an IR will I be out on the economy?  Frankly, I don't really care as I already have a home and don't mind the shacks, but a heads up would be nice.


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## Rowshambow (13 Feb 2008)

Otto, one of the Sgt's currently working for me is IR and lives on the economy, he gets $1700 to pay for rent, parking (if it costs extra) furniture rental, etc so that is something to look into.

As for the R+Q issue, when I was a Sgt doing my rounds while on duty, you seen some pretty horrible things, troops living off of microwaved mac and cheese, crappy hot plates, McD's etc....now go to PT said troops are out of shape, and not living healthy, yes mess food is deepfried, but they do have other choices, sammys for lunch etc, so basically what I am saying is that you complain about mess deep fried, yet you order pizza, McD's etc!!! I lived in the shacks for a few years, and paid roughly the same as what it is now , yet I made 1/2 as much, Tprs and Cpls make a tonne of money now! At the very least it's a hot prepared meal in a sanitary kitchen, not in a 8x10 cell room!

 What you should be complaining about is the fact that the Quarters have jumped up so much in price!!!


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## OldSolduer (13 Feb 2008)

Here's my take from 33 year member:
1. It's about FREEDOM.....let the soldier decide. IF he/she can't hack it, then there are administrative avenues to follow;
 and
2. How else is the military going to pay for all the civvie help in the kitchens?


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## Michael OLeary (13 Feb 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Here's my take from 33 year member:
> 1. It's about FREEDOM.....let the soldier decide. IF he/she can't hack it, then there are administrative avenues to follow;
> and



Well, that's a simple "rah-rah" statement that brings us no closer to a recommended solution.

What choices should the soldier have, and how exactly would you manage the resources to ensure they can be maintained?



			
				OldSolduer said:
			
		

> 2. How else is the military going to pay for all the civvie help in the kitchens?



We pay for a civvy cook or a military cook, either way we have to pay for staff.


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## OldSolduer (13 Feb 2008)

The solution is right in front of your nose:

Let the soldiers choose for themselves. Someone had the best idea.....give each soldier, married or single a  swipe card.
THAT was a  solution proposed years ago, but was discarded because it was "too hard".

AND there was no need to be so disrespectful


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## Sig_Des (13 Feb 2008)

The problem is, and living in the shacks, I see it, there ARE young members (older ones as well) who just can't eat well left of their own accord.

Maybe for a members first posting, and living-in, pay rations for a year. But then, you'd have the individuals who CAN maintain after themselves complaining.

There's NO 100%, make everyone top-to bottom happy, solution.


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## Michael OLeary (13 Feb 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> The solution is right in front of your nose:
> 
> Let the soldiers choose for themselves. Someone had the best idea.....give each soldier, married or single a  swipe card.
> THAT was a  solution proposed years ago, but was discarded because it was "too hard".
> ...



This thread started with:



			
				rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> Effective 1 April 2008 there will be a Re-Linking of rations to quarters in the Edmonton Garrison. Members are to choose one of the following meal plans that best suits their requirements and lifestyle (see below). Those not wishing to "take advantage" of re-Linking will be eligible for PLD as they move out onto the economy.



Notably, no further information was given (if available) on why this course of action was being considered or taken.  We haven’t been given the data on which the staff are taking this decision (if it has been finalized).  Maybe so many troops are taking the PAYG meal option every day that it’s actually more effective to push them into meal plans fits the average usage.  The main point is WE DON’T have the facts, and therefore we can only guess at possible realistic alternatives.

Various options were tossed out through the course of the thread:



			
				Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> It should be pay as you go system. Simple as that.





			
				rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> That is one of 2 status quo options, Full or pay as you go.





			
				Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> What it should be... is a card you swipe with each time you go in. And at the end of the month, however many times you went during meals hours you are charge that amount.



We also saw in the thread the posting of various observations that opened the door to actually examining the processes involved and the challenges the staff face dealing with trying to maintain flexible meal options:



			
				Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Perhaps part of the problem is an inconsistent expectation that rations will be available to all who wish to "pay as you go".  If there are (pulling numbers out of thin air here) 3000 soldiers on a base and 1000 pay for rations off their pay and 2000 expect to be able to go to the kitchen whenever they want and pay as they go, then how many meals does the kitchen prepare?
> 
> If the kitchen underestimates and those who paid up front are the ones without satisfactory service or the food choices or amounts they expect for the money they already agreed to pay, whose fault is that?
> 
> ...





			
				GAP said:
			
		

> So if they introduced the card system to all users they could track consumption to combine with (it would seem) reasonably accurate budgeting of say....the past five or three years, it would give them more accurate estimates.



We also saw the references posted for those who wished to dig deeper:



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/208-01_e.asp





			
				Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> And here's the related DAOD:
> 
> DAOD 30-12  Provision and Sale of Food Services



And then, after a few tangential discussions, you weighed in with your 33 years of experience as your disclaimer that 



			
				OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Here's my take from 33 year member:
> 1. It's about FREEDOM.....let the soldier decide. IF he/she can't hack it, then there are administrative avenues to follow;



You offered no credible explanation to back it up.
You gave no resource-based explanation that would satisfy those anal-retentive bean counters that must just be out to screw the troops.
You offered no explanation of where the funding would come from to support the maximum flexibility this option appears to offer.

And then you get offended because I called you on it.

It’s just so easy to choose the most advantageous course of action “for the troops” when you don’t have to back it up with credible numbers or a workable plan.  Since when is it disrespectful to expect someone who pushes their 33 years of experience in front of a dumb answer to actually back it up with something besides emotive chaff.  Obviously if I don’t agree that makes me the bad guy not thinking of the troops. If you have a real-world solution, please feel free to offer it with the details.


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## Cannonfodder (15 Feb 2008)

Sounds like a fairly good deal to have meals prepared and provided for you . Too bad you could not purchase a ration card with say 90 meals on it for 425 dollars , everytime you entered the mess hall you would swipe in . This way the member would get the best deal on his meals and would not lose out if they were away on exercise for 3 weeks or took off for the weekend .


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## aesop081 (15 Feb 2008)

Cannonfodder said:
			
		

> would not lose out if they were away on exercise for 3 weeks or took off for the weekend .



a member away on exercise doesnt "lose out". The rations costs for that period is reimbused to the member on his pay once he/she returns to base.


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## Long in the tooth (15 Feb 2008)

Do the DAODs replace the old CFAOs (with 140 exemptions for paying rations)?  This is no longer in our purview in the RMS world after amalgamation and delinking of rations in the 90s.  I think Esquimalt was the first to do that (no, I'm pretty damned sure).  Who is responsible for handling ration remits now?

I'm interested to see how this plays out.  I would bet that the move to relink is to motivate the troops to move off base.  Sounds like an Army control issue to me.


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## Michael OLeary (15 Feb 2008)

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> I'm interested to see how this plays out.  I would bet that the move to relink is to motivate the troops to move off base.  Sounds like an Army control issue to me.



Why is it that when a decision is being considered that someone doesn’t like, the automatic assumption is that is must be a conspiracy designed to screw the troops?

Why do so many supposedly experienced people reject the simple possibility that it may be an attempt to have a workable plan within the available resource structure.

Let’s look at it from this perspective:

You’re the CQ of a Reserve infantry company.  The OC wants to do some local training for the company of 150 pers.  Because it’s at the local Armoury, there’s no entitlement to be provided rations and no nearby CF kitchen.  You know that you can bring in a catered meal to feed the troops lunch, but the OC reinforces that there’s no available funding and any meal has to be paid for by the troops who consume it.  You’ve got approval to order the meal, but it’s got to be a zero-cost plan. 

So, you petition the troops.  

You tell them you’ll bring in the meal for those who pay up front. 75 of the 150 dig out their wallets.  The others figure they’ll be on their own.

And you plan for 75 meals.

But, one of your section commanders suggests that there may be others that will pay for the meal at the time, but don’t want to commit now.

So, you petition the troops again.

25 of the other 75 say they’ll buy the meal at the time (but you don’t get their money now and they won’t absolutely guarantee they’ll buy it).  25 more say they want that option, but can’t be sure until the day happens.  And the last 25 still say they’ll take care of themselves.

So, you’ve collected money to cover 75 meals, and another 50 might eat but didn’t pay.

Now, how many meals do you order?
Who’s going to pay for the ones that don’t get eaten?

You could say you’ll only order meals for the 75 who paid, but isn’t that screwing the troops that just want a flexible option of eating without the commitment?  And then you'd have to stand at the meal line and enforce the fact that only those who paid get to eat.

You could order 125 for those that paid and those that might buy on the day, but you could get stiffed for the rest of the cost.

You could order for 125, but cut back on the meal quality and amounts so that the money you collected from the 75 (the money you know you have) covers the cost.  But that's screwing the 75 and then you could end up with extra money (hmmm, ethics problem there).

Now, your job is to pick the plan that gives everyone what they paid for, ensures that everyone can get what they might want, and ensures maximum flexibility for every soldier.

So, what’s the plan?  Remember, you only collected money to pay for 75 meals up front.

Do you order for 75? 100? 125? 150?

And now what do you do if you accept risk for the cost of 25 meals over the 75 you have covered and order for 100.  Then, on the training day, the weather’s real shitty and all 75 of the ones who didn’t pay up front want to buy the meal to avoid going out to find other options?

What’s the simple solution that makes sure no soldier could possibly have a complaint afterwards?


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## exgunnertdo (15 Feb 2008)

I love that analogy, Michael O'Leary!  Perfect...

I realize that eating in the kitchen seems expensive but think of the value added, compared to a bag of groceries that those "on the economy" pay:

You don't have to shop for groceries (giving you an hour or so a week of extra time)
You don't have to plan and cook (an hour or so a day, say, for all three meals)
You don't have to clean up, do dishes etc (again, an hour or so a day)
You don't have to invest in a fridge, stove, pots, pans, dishes, and other cooking gear (several hundred dollars using the cheapest stuff, potentially more if you buy quality things).  Even if you rent a place with a fridge/stove, you're paying for them, BTW.
Your "rent" is lower, since you don't have to rent a place with space for cooking

So for the extra money you pay for rations, vs just buying groceries - you're getting back 15+ hours of free time per week and not spending the money on the capital investment required to feed yourself.  Not a bad deal, actually.

(Edited for typo)


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## armyvern (15 Feb 2008)

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> Do the DAODs replace the old CFAOs (with 140 exemptions for paying rations)?  This is no longer in our purview in the RMS world after amalgamation and delinking of rations in the 90s.  I think Esquimalt was the first to do that (no, I'm pretty damned sure).  Who is responsible for handling ration remits now?
> 
> I'm interested to see how this plays out.  I would bet that the move to relink is to motivate the troops to move off base.  Sounds like an Army control issue to me.



Quaint. The DAOD clearly lays out responsibilities for remits.

It also lays out quite nicely that the people who dine in that Kitchen ... PAY the costs for that kitchen's operation.

So, we have a whole bunch of single guys living in ... who don't dine there --- but MIGHT. So that kitchen has to order food and staff itself based upon those soldiers MAY show up to eat. And, because the food is contracted for delivery it HAS to be paid for regardless of whether those living in *choose* to show or not.

So, rather than it being an "army control" issue --- I'd suggest to you that it is an attempt to keep costs for operations, staff and spoilage to a MINIMUM. Seeing as how those costs are borne by the LIVING-IN members who are paying those costs and for whom the service exists ... I'd think it's in_ their _ best interests and that they'd want their costs to be as low as possible.

Now, the people who would agree with that, of course, would be the guys who (if on a pay as you go plan) actually eat there and don't want to have to pay higher costs for their food to make up for those who didn't eat there that day ... because the kitchen STILL has to operate as if the "non-eaters" MIGHT show up there. 

In effect -- a pay as you go system has people who take their meals at the kitchen "paying more than their share" of staffing, overhead & food costs because those who live-in but don't eat there (but must STILL be ordered for -- just in case) don't come in and pay.

It isn't a restaurant -- it can't just write off it's losses like a restaurant can. It HAS to provide those services to living in members just-in-case ... so those living-in-members get the joy of paying those costs. If they then _choose_ to eat somewhere else ... why should the buddy across the hall who does eat in cover the expenses associated with the others' choice?

I see choices with this option. You eat in or your don't. Your choice. You live in or you don't. Again, your choice. The kitchen has *no* choice BUT to maintain services and associated costs of feeding you regardless of whether you eat-in or not (that's your choice remember) -- so why would you have a choice as to whether or not you bore the costs associated with that choice you made to eat out? Why should your buddies pay more for their kitchen food & operating expenses so that you can eat out every day despite the fact that you are availed of a kitchen facility? The operating expenses don't change, the foods still got to be ordered --- so it's still got to be paid for. So, if you are paying as you go but chosing not to eat there that day ... who then is going to pay your portion of overhead, spoliage, staffing that is still on premises just in case you show up? Your buddy.


----------



## Sparkplugs (20 Jul 2008)

So I know you guys are the ones with info, seeing as I've hit a brick wall on this one.

I got to Trenton in March, and was told if I was living in, I had to pay rations.  I thought it was only if you were on course, or a training base, but when I asked about it, they said, no, this was a new thing, all people in shacks were being forced to pay rations.  So as I had no choice, here I am on rations, to the tune of $427 a month.  Now, before I get a "Oh, suck it up, cupcake,  >" here's my reasoning.

*8 AMS people are on 12 hour shifts.  0600-1800, and 1800-0600.  The mess opens at 0600.  This means, in order to eat breakfast, I have to be late for work.  My staff is okay with it, mostly because they have no choice, they know we have to eat.  It also means I have to leave in the middle of a dayshift for lunch, and that can be an ordeal, sometimes the lines are out the door, so you're looking at 1 hour+ there.  We also leave 15 mins early at the end of the day, because the mess closes at 1830.  So we can never be at work for shift handovers or anything that happens at the start or end of a shift.

*Because we work nights as well, we're missing our lunch meal due to sleeping.  We asked if we could simply pick up extra dinner when we're there to eat, to bring to eat at midnight.  We got a great big "NO," and have been eating box lunches ever since.  I don't know about anyone else, but I feel like my $427 is going to waste when I get ham sandwiches and juice boxes for my midnight dinner, every night shift.  

*Freedom of choice... If I want to go out to eat, I can't afford it.  Paying $427 a month for food, would feed a small family.  So how am I, 5 feet tall and all of 110lbs, going to eat that much food at the mess?  I'm not...  So what am I paying for?  I'd like to be able to pay per meal, so I can choose where I'd like to eat, and be able to bring my own lunch to work.  Sure, I could bring my own stuff now, but I can't afford it on top of what I already pay.  

*Those of us on meal cards are not allowed to take out food.  So no snacks, no drinks, nothing.  I don't like having to pay extra for those things at a store when I'm supposed to be fed in the mess.  Also,it's very hard to eat healthy there.  The variety is just not there.  For instance, dinner today was either deep fried fish, chicken nuggets, pasta with meat or alfredo, or pizza.  Not too healthy.  I'm tired of eating yogurt and salad for dinner.

Anyway, enough ranting.  We were told that Petawawa started doing it first, for reasons I won't get into here, can anyone verify that people in sq's in Pet are being forced on as well?

Also, people who arrived here before I did, did not have to link up...  There was an email printed out and taped on the wall that said that the personnel currently de-linked would be forced to link with a 3 month grace period.  This has not come down yet, and those not paying rations, have not been told that they will have to re-link.

I guess my question is, can I fight this?  How come I don't get a grace period?  There are only a few of us being forced right now, and we'd like to know if we have any options.  I talked to my chain, and they said nothing could be done on their end.  

And yes, I would get an apartment or a Q, but a)I can't afford it right now, being a P3, and b)I'm going to be on course for 8 months next year, out of Canada, and I don't want to pay for a place I'm not living in for that long.  I will be getting out of shacks as soon as I can afford it, but I'm stuck until then.

Any ideas?  Comments?  Anyone seen this before with an operational base, and residents who aren't on course?  I'm just frustrated here, as being de-linked would allow me to bring my own stuff to work, and also to put away money for a place in the future.  

Thanks for your time.    ;D

*edited to add info since I was awesomely linked to another post on this I didn't find before.....*

In reference to the post linked below this one, they are not offering us the mon-fri meal plan or the 2 meal per day plan.  It's $430 a month, for everyone, all the time.  Mon-fri wouldn't work for us, we run 24/7 shifts, so we need the weekend eats, but I still think a pay as you go plan would be the best way to go.


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## aesop081 (20 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> Paying $427 a month for food, would feed a small family.



Its just me and my 11 year old daughter.......$427 doesnt cut it.


Move out as soon as you can, suck it up until then.

Even when i go to other bases for recurent training , i have to put up with shitty menus and oddball hours. You are not the only one getting a shitty deal so make the best of it. You could always be in Afghanistan eating the same IMP for the 5th meal in a row.


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## Sparkplugs (20 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Its just me and my 11 year old daughter.......$427 doesnt cut it.
> 
> 
> Move out as soon as you can, suck it up until then



I fed myself and a big ol' boyfriend for a few years before I joined on less than that, and we ate pretty well too, better than mess food anyway!

I've resigned myself to sucking it up, but it can't hurt to ask if something can be done...  If another base sets a precedent, then I have something to bring up my chain.


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## HItorMiss (20 Jul 2008)

Thats odd I was in the shacks in Pet from Sept 07 until march of this year and was never forced to link, I know lot's of individuals not linked and living in the SQ's.


----------



## Sparkplugs (20 Jul 2008)

I have been reading in the other post, and people are mentioning things about how the kitchen wouldn't know how much food to prepare, etc, if they didn't know how many cards were in use.

Trenton has a busy mess.  And when I'm in there at lunch, I'd estimate that 50% of people in there, are cash customers... why can't we be cash (ie pay as you go) as well?  They can't possibly use that as an excuse when they feed a ton of civvies and visitors at lunch who all pay as they go.  And they're not regulars, some of them, at least we're pretty regular.  I know if there was a pay as you go option, I'd be using it at least once a day.  There are enough bases who have been using swipe cards, could they not make up a trending formula to guesstimate how many of us there'd be using it?  

It just seems like the numbers excuse doesn't work when a large portion of eaters are paying cash anyway.  

EDIT:  I'm not expecting to eat for free, I'd just like to buy/make my own food.  In the common room here, we have enough kitchen appliances to make meals with.  If this is to make sure we're eating stuff other than ramen noodles and pizza, it seems like babysitting.  Just because we live in shacks we have to be spoon fed?  What about people who are trying to save up for future housing?


----------



## SupersonicMax (20 Jul 2008)

That doesn't happen in Moose Jaw for sure.  People living in have the choice, and many don't eat at the mess for various reasons (mainly because the food is not very good).  Most IR people do eat at the mess though.

CDN Aviator:



> Even when i go to other bases for recurent training , i have to put up with shitty menus and oddball hours. You are not the only one getting a shitty deal so make the best of it. You could always be in Afghanistan eating the same IMP for the 5th meal in a row.



When you go somewhere else on TD or Attach Posting, you don't get to pay a ridiculous amound of money to eat crappy food though.


----------



## Sparkplugs (20 Jul 2008)

One of my main concerns is that other living-in members have not been forced on rations, yet I have.  If no CFAO or CANFORGEN has come down about it, how can they force me and a slight few others?  And who could I speak to, to address this?  Even a few months grace off rations, where I could buy my own food, would help out more than now.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (20 Jul 2008)

Its free crappy food  ;D


Though the new shacks in Gagetown are just great


----------



## HItorMiss (20 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Even when i go to other bases for recurrent training , i have to put up with shitty menus and oddball hours. You are not the only one getting a shitty deal so make the best of it. You could always be in Afghanistan eating the same IMP for the 5th meal in a row.



That answer is BS. I was in Afghanistan I did et the same IMP for months and I will be the first to tell you that forcing someone to eat in the mess and pay that much for food is not on not even remotely. As a single person I do not eat $427 in food a month on my own in fact when my significant other is here I don't think we eat that much in food either but I will ask her. 

When you are on training you are not paying for your rations and course schedule are built around mess hours. This young Pte is missing work and leaving in the middle of shifts simply because some yahoo has decided that she HAS to be linked for reasons I can only speculate as to why ( Such as mess are losing money as very few living in pers are willing to eat there, food quality is at best OK and it is not the cooks fault it's simply massed produced food you can't do much when you are cooking for hundreds) As members stopped being linked rations prices increased to make up short falls it seems now that they areforcing living in pers to link perhaps they will lower food prices though I doubt that.   

I think this needs to be brought up to the Ombudsman myself I think removing that choice from soldiers is not right or perhaps even legal.

EDIT: Also she makes a good point if there is no standing CFAO or QR&O or CANFORGEN I am not sure they can really push this onto them should the choose to fight it. The question ebing who is willing to start the fight and make some enemies


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Jul 2008)

I have to agree with BulletMagnet.......................it sounds ridiculous.


----------



## Sparkplugs (20 Jul 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> I think this needs to be brought up to the Ombudsman myself I think removing that choice from soldiers is not right or perhaps even legal.
> 
> EDIT: Also she makes a good point if there is no standing CFAO or QR&O or CANFORGEN I am not sure they can really push this onto them should the choose to fight it. The question ebing who is willing to start the fight and make some enemies



I've brought this up to the Ombudsman, 4 weeks ago, with no reply yet.  I assume they're busy, so I'm waiting.  I checked up on it once, all I was told was that they have it, and they're really busy, so waiting is in order.  Hey, I can wait, I've spent $12,000 on food in messes in the past couple of years!   

I'm trying to fight it, don't know what options I have though, so thats why I'm checking here.  I don't mind a good fight, hehe, especially when it's for something I believe in.

(edited for spelling, oops)


----------



## hugh19 (20 Jul 2008)

When I was on the Protectuer, we had a non-QL3 NCIOP trainee. Who even though she was sailing on a ship still had to pay rations at Nelles block.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (20 Jul 2008)

sledge said:
			
		

> When I was on the Protectuer, we had a non-QL3 NCIOP trainee. Who even though she was sailing on a ship still had to pay rations at Nelles block.



 ??? now thats money well spent.........................................................................*NOT*

Who comes up with this stuff?


----------



## hugh19 (20 Jul 2008)

Though i can't remember if she was delinked when we actually sailed but I do know she had to pay for R&Q when we where alongside even if she was duty and had to be onboard. Mind you she was also rationed on the ship for meals. ie Lunch and soup, when alongside.


----------



## HItorMiss (20 Jul 2008)

Spark you want to fight it then you write a memo and in that memo you ref the fact that there are no QR&O's, CFAO's or CANFORGEN's that say living in pers MUST be linked ( research it first though perhaps there is but I have not seen one) And then you say that forcing living in pers to be linked is by definition illegal as there is no order stating that it is mandatory in the CF. And you address it to the Base Comd, Memo's must be seen by those they are addressed to. and it must be actioned in 14 working days.

Here is the catch if you are right or even wrong you will incite a Poop Storm...and I mean a big one your own CoC is not going to like it (well some might respect the fact you took the time to look it all up and are taking action I would) And the Base CoC if being proven wrong in writing will have to change their policy and that will not make any Col Happy, especially since a Pte called them on it. Remember this is one COA and not the only solution, the other is taking all the info to your own CoC and making them awarethat it's not legal and see what they do with it. and of course there is waiting for the Ombudsman as well

3 COA's provided of the top of my head withing one or a combination of all of them lays the answer.


----------



## SupersonicMax (20 Jul 2008)

I know many WComd that would be more than happy to make the living conditions better.  The fact that a Pte sends a memo to point out something should not have any impact on anything.  And I don't see any reason to make a big poop storm out of it, provided something is genuinly wrong in the way they do things.


----------



## blacktriangle (20 Jul 2008)

Is the $427 total for R&Q or is that only the R portion of it where you are? 

I remember reading about a similar situation in Edmonton a few months back, and yes it did seem less then ideal. If I remember correctly it was more of an incentive to get living in pers to move out, in order to free up space. If it's happening everywhere, I think they need to simply build more base housing...or explain the real reason behind it. 

Once I get settled into the regs I'm going to evaluate my position, as I'm torn between not wanting a car, but at the same time not wanting to eat the mess food constantly or pay for it and not eat it. I don't know what the rules are in Shilo, can anyone clarify if I'd be forced to pay rations there if I just wanted to live in the SQ's? If im in Edmonton, I might just take my chances with PLD...


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jul 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> When you go somewhere else on TD or Attach Posting, you don't get to pay a ridiculous amound of money to eat crappy food though.



No so i end up spending my own money on food because the mess serves shit or because i'm in training during mess hours. My point was that its not because you live out that issue with the mess stop.



			
				BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> That answer is BS.



Fair enough



> and course schedule are built around mess hours.



In your world maybe.


----------



## Sparkplugs (20 Jul 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Is the $427 total for R&Q or is that only the R portion of it where you are?
> 
> I remember reading about a similar situation in Edmonton a few months back, and yes it did seem less then ideal. If I remember correctly it was more of an incentive to get living in pers to move out, in order to free up space. If it's happening everywhere, I think they need to simply build more base housing...or explain the real reason behind it.
> 
> Once I get settled into the regs I'm going to evaluate my position, as I'm torn between not wanting a car, but at the same time not wanting to eat the mess food constantly or pay for it and not eat it. I don't know what the rules are in Shilo, can anyone clarify if I'd be forced to pay rations there if I just wanted to live in the SQ's? If im in Edmonton, I might just take my chances with PLD...



The $427 is only the rations.  I also pay $208 for my 10x12' room here, which I can't complain about, because even to rent a room in a house with others, you're looking at $400 a month.  And get this... the male's building has free internet, while I had to pay to have mine installed and pay monthly.  We pay the same amount for quarters.  Their rooms are a bit smaller, but I'd rather have free internet than space, hahaha!

I do have a vehicle, which I bought 3 years before I joined, and I'm not sad I have it.  I have to get off base sometimes, hahaha!  But yes, paying a vehicle, phone, insurance, gas, internet, etc, it adds up.

I can see the reasoning for wanting people to live out, but with current recruiting trends, the bases are going to get busier before they get emptier!  

**As far as food spending goes, by the end of a month, I dish out a lot more than the $427.  The mess doesn't provide me with snacks or drinks, so I have to buy juice, bottled water (rusty pipes here,) milk, pop, and other food out of my own pocket.  Or if I'd like to go out to eat, with friends or family, you can easily tack on another $30 for each time.  Needless to say, I don't eat out much!


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jul 2008)

Anyone you know in the shacks that could split an appt with you ?

Lots of guys did that when i lived in....was the only way to afford it


----------



## Sparkplugs (20 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Anyone you know in the shacks that could split an appt with you ?
> 
> Lots of guys did that when i lived in....was the only way to afford it



That's likely what will happen when I get back from course next year.  (8-10 months on course, I don't want to be paying for an apartment and not living there)  The only thing is, unless you find a furnished place, someone has to buy furniture, appliances, etc, and right now that's just not a viable option.  Trust me, hehe, I wouldn't be in shacks if it weren't financially necessary right now.


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> That's likely what will happen when I get back from course next year.  (8-10 months on course, I don't want to be paying for an apartment and not living there)  The only thing is, unless you find a furnished place, someone has to buy furniture, appliances, etc, and right now that's just not a viable option.  Trust me, hehe, I wouldn't be in shacks if it weren't financially necessary right now.



I moved out of the shacks and lived with wife and kids on Pte 1 pay so i'm sure theres a solution there somewhere that fits your budget.


----------



## HItorMiss (20 Jul 2008)

CDNAV

Have you ever missed a meal due to course, as in a box lunch/supper/breakfast or a haybox was not provided or a claimfor meals was not issued?

Courses are built around hard timings and those that cannot be met are taken into account, by the booking of meals.


----------



## SupersonicMax (20 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I moved out of the shacks and lived with wife and kids on Pte 1 pay so i'm sure theres a solution there somewhere that fits your budget.



When the housing wasn't so damn expensive


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jul 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Have you ever missed a meal due to course, as in a box lunch/supper/breakfast or a haybox was not provided or a claimfor meals was not issued?



Repeatedly



> Courses are built around hard timings and those that cannot be met are taken into account, by the booking of meals.



Idealy yes.....in practical terms it doesnt always happen that way.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> When the housing wasn't so damn expensive



And the pay was alot freakin less than it is today.


----------



## Sparkplugs (20 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I moved out of the shacks and lived with wife and kids on Pte 1 pay so i'm sure theres a solution there somewhere that fits your budget.



Without getting into too many details, I own a vehicle, and I am also paying off a student loan from when I went to college, and my debt is being paid off, until it is, I can't afford a place of my own.  This isn't an issue of "people shouldn't live in shacks if they don't like the way it's done there", this is a fairness and money issue.  If I were able to buy my own food, I'd be in an apartment by now, because I'd have been able to save up enough to go.  But when your pay is under $800 twice a month, and most of it goes to debt, there isn't a lot to play with.  I know people who had a place on a P1 salary as well, and that's awesome, if you can afford it.  My budget is not excessive.  I don't party, I don't drink, and I don't waste money.  Every pay incentive I get, this gets easier, but for now, I just can't afford it.  

I have no regrets about joining, I am furthering myself and am very proud of where I stand right now.  I love the CF, but I do think this is an important issue for those of us it affects.


----------



## HItorMiss (20 Jul 2008)

CDN AV

The you my friend are getting screwed too LOL, And I hope you raised those issues in the course Critique. No troop should be without a meal ever no exceptions, well there are filed worthy exceptions but no excuse while in garrison!


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jul 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> No troop should be without a meal ever no exceptions, well there are filed worthy exceptions but no excuse while in garrison!



In ZX you can get a box lunch for a meal when you are going to be unable to be at the mess BUT you had better have ordered it 48 hours in advance !!

There are times where, no matter how tight a schedule you have made, meals will be missed.


----------



## Kat Stevens (21 Jul 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I know many WComd that would be more than happy to make the living conditions better.  The fact that a Pte sends a memo to point out something should not have any impact on anything.  And I don't see any reason to make a big poop storm out of it, provided something is genuinly wrong in the way they do things.



You're new around here, aren't you?


----------



## SupersonicMax (21 Jul 2008)

Actually, no.  I've been around for 8 years and I've served directly and indirectly under 4 Wing Commanders and all were very concerned about the welfare of everyone under their command.  And if something wasn't right and shouldn't have been done, it was rectified, no matter who brough up the point.  That's the way the system is built.  If the system isn't transparent, it becomes unfair for the troops.

Max


----------



## yak (21 Jul 2008)

This sounds pretty off-side in my experience.  Why aren't you getting better divisional support?  From your decription, you are not able to access the service you are paying for.  You should either be able to get to the mess without exception, or there should be some mechanism for you to receive your meals at your workplace.   Frankly, the basic idea of being forced to pay for rations while living in is pretty strange, I've always thought the two (rations/quarters) were separable.

What self-respecting senior NCO would allow a Pte to deal with this on their own?  Even if I did not think Sparkplugs was getting seen off, I would supporting the appeal to the next appropriate step.

You should probably request to see that regulation in writing, before you proceed any further.  Then when you've moved on elsewhere, you can reference that instead of saying "well, so-and-so told me".  That will assist when you are asked the inevitable questions.

Once again, I'd ask why you aren't getting this from your divisional system.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

yak said:
			
		

> This sounds pretty off-side in my experience.  Why aren't you getting better divisional support?  From your decription, you are not able to access the service you are paying for.  You should either be able to get to the mess without exception, or there should be some mechanism for you to receive your meals at your workplace.   Frankly, the basic idea of being forced to pay for rations while living in is pretty strange, I've always thought the two (rations/quarters) were separable.
> 
> What self-respecting senior NCO would allow a Pte to deal with this on their own?  Even if I did not think Sparkplugs was getting seen off, I would supporting the appeal to the next appropriate step.
> 
> ...



A few of us had brought it up to the chain, and got the old 'nothing we can do, talk to the kitchen' thing, but of course, the kitchen isn't in my chain, so that's doesn't work.  I'm going to try and send up a memo, referencing the lack of a regulation for this.


----------



## aesop081 (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> I'm going to try and send up a memo, referencing the lack of a regulation for this.



going to hope that you looked beyond CANFORGENs , CFAOs and The like before saying theres a lack of regulations on a memo. I would hate to see your memo fired back because you didnt do your research completely.


----------



## yak (21 Jul 2008)

I'd direct that to the lowest practical level in your div chain and let them have a chance at it before you go off half-cocked and ill-advised.

Perhaps written with the knowledge and assistance of your MCpl (or whatever you've got) to your WO or divisional Chief (or equivalent).  Perhaps your Div O, but the chiefs usually like being on top of these sorts of things.  He's probably got a direct line to get to the bottom of this in the galley anyway.

Make sure you check your standing orders there.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> going to hope that you looked beyond CANFORGENs , CFAOs and The like before saying theres a lack of regulations on a memo. I would hate to see your memo fired back because you didnt do your research completely.



If there were CFAO's etc for Trenton out on this, I wouldn't be asking for options.  I said nothing had come down yet, which is why I'm trying to see if there's something I can do.  Thanks, but when I compose a memo which I expect to be taken seriously, I make sure to research it.  Hence what I'm doing now.  And hence what I'll be doing on the DIN tomorrow.  We've been looking for paperwork for weeks about this, and there have been no CANFORGENS forthcoming, nor have there been any other regulatory documents specific to Trenton.

And to Yak...  I may be young, and only a couple years in, but I'm not stupid enough to go off half-cocked or ill-advised.  I know how a chain of command works, and without you knowing who I've already discussed this with in my chain, you can't make judgment calls on me like that.  My Mcpls have all been very helpful, but as I said in my first post, I've hit a brick wall with this, and I've been exploring other options with this topic.  And trust me, I've read the standing orders.


----------



## aesop081 (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> If there were CFAO's etc for Trenton out on this, I wouldn't be asking for options.  I said nothing had come down yet, which is why I'm trying to see if there's something I can do.  Thanks, but when I compose a memo which I expect to be taken seriously, I make sure to research it.  Hence what I'm doing now.  And hence what I'll be doing on the DIN tomorrow.  We've been looking for paperwork for weeks about this, and there have been no CANFORGENS forthcoming, nor have there been any other regulatory documents specific to Trenton.



Have you read the Wing Standing orders ? Also make sure you have gone through about a year's worth of wing routine orders.


----------



## yak (21 Jul 2008)

Hey, no offense intended.

I just want to make sure you've crossed your t's and dotted the i's before it goes farther than it needs to.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

yak said:
			
		

> Hey, no offense intended.
> 
> I just want to make sure you've crossed your t's and dotted the i's before it goes farther than it needs to.



None taken, I read your post as more hostile than you intended....


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Have you read the Wing Standing orders ? Also make sure you have gone through about a year's worth of wing routine orders.



This is definitely new.  The only paperwork at all, that has shown up here, was a random email printed out that said they were considering putting everyone in shacks on rations, and those de-linked, would only be able to do so for a 3 month grace period.  This was last year, and it's all that has come down so far that we've seen here.  Now, there could be paperwork out there, and tomorrow, I'm going to head into work and see if I can dig something up.  If I can't, I have my ammo.  If I can, well, I'll be asking for my 3 months, and saving up for a place.


----------



## aesop081 (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> This is definitely new.



Like i said, you have to go beyond the obvious sources of regulations. Heck, even the Wing buisness play contain the answer or even contain the reference for the answer. Sometimes financial policy decisions are delegated to the Wing/Base commaders and are not found in National policy documents other than a breif mention along the lines of " Wing/Base commanders are authorized to manage R&Q policy in as it best suist local conditions" or something along those lines. for example. You can bet that if an email was senannouncing this, theres a peice of official paper on the Wing that details it.

What do i know however........i'm crusty, cranky and have been doing this for far too long.......


----------



## willy (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> This is definitely new.  The only paperwork at all, that has shown up here, was a random email printed out that said they were considering putting everyone in shacks on rations, and those de-linked, would only be able to do so for a 3 month grace period.



The 5 most empowering words in the CF: "Show me that in writing".

Demand (courteously) but demand nonetheless to see the policy in its written form.  We operate on the basis of paperwork, not word of mouth: if a policy doesn't exist on paper then it doesn't exist at all.  It's your right to see it if it does.

Once you have it in writing you have a starting point and you can make an appropriate judgement as to where to go from there.  

And Yak is right, your SNCO's should be all over this.  Make sure you go to them before you do anything else because: a- they will help you, and b- you don't want to be on the receiving end of it if you go over their heads and they find out about it afterwards.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

I agree with most of what is being said, and echo Willy's post comment of "show me that in writing".

Your first move, IMHO, is to request the policy/directive/whatever that authorizes the linking of R & Q, wherein a mbr is forced to pay for rations.  This does a few things for you.  1, it lets you write a clear memo to the CoC or whoever you shall direct it to.  2, if you do decide to file a Grievance IAW CFAO 19-32 and QR & O Vol 1 Ch 7 etc, this will let you write a clearly written grievance to your CO, who must determine who the IA will be and fwd it to that authority.

From my standpoint, there should be NO directive forcing members on rations if they live in SQs.  There BS answers of "forcing people onto the economy/out of SQs" should result in the unfeeling SOBs who are forcing troops to spend *their* pay to keep a Mess/Galley open receiving multiple kicks in the nuts.  

I never have, and never will, support a policy that screws the troops that does not have some legitimate military necessity behind it.  The fact that the mess's are too expensive, with sometime poor menu's, food quality etc which is making them undesireable is not a problem which the solution should be forcing people onto rations.

Spark, as for your staff/CoC not complaining about the time at work missed, they shouldn't be.  You are being forced to pay for rations, which is beyond your control.  You cannot control the lineups.  I applaud your concern here but, if it were me, I'd not be loosing a wink of sleep over the time missed out of the shop because of this SNAFU.  Your CoC should be using THAT to address this situation to their own higher CoC, in terms of productivity loss's, which SHOULD be a concern to 8 AMS.

Finally, I am living-in at Warrior Block here at 12 Wing.  Members here are not forced onto rations, period.  The day they tell me I "HAVE" to eat at the mess and live in is the day I would ask for a copy of the directive that authorized this.  I would then not take 1 meal at the mess in Warrior block.  Then I would file my Grievance.  I would submit a memo to my CO stating this extra forced expense by the CF is creating a situation of financial hardship (as I would NOT be eating at the mess, and still buying my own rations as I do now).

Also, is this policy in Trenton applicable to ALL RANKS.  IE, WOs and Sgts and members of the Officer's mess as well?  If they are going to force a standard, then it has to be a standard and not JUST for Junior Ranks.  

I also agree with the point of view that your MCpls, Sgts and WOs should be addressing this up the "NCO net" and not this "oh well, put up or shut up' crap.  NCOs that have that for an answer should be required to report to their RSMs and COs and explain why they have no fucking spine.  Thats my opinion of POS NCOs.


----------



## CountDC (21 Jul 2008)

CFAO 36-14 NOTES 1 AND 5 solves this for you - save your time:

Notes -1.  When a member who is on ration strength cannot be provided with
a meal from DND food services, he may claim for actual out-of-pocket
expenses for meals not exceeding the rates prescribed for individual meals
in Annex A to 209-13.

RATION STRENGTH5.     Unless authorized by NDHQ/DCBA (Director Compensation and Benefits
Administration), all occupants of single quarters shall be taken on ration
strength except:
     a.   chaplains who due to the nature of their pastoral duties elect
          not to be taken on ration strength;

     b.   members of a ship's company who are granted permission to live
          out but are allocated a cabin or bunk for operational reasons;
          and

     c.   living-in members of a ship's company who elect not to be taken
          on ration strength.

stop going to work late and leaving early. Talk to your MCpl and explain you will be submitting your meal claims as the mess is not open for the hours you need in order to eat and meet your work schedule. I am surprised that no one has come up with this for you as it took me less than a minute to find. I am also surprised that your coc who set your work schedule did not arrange things for your meals. When I had work hours that did not correspond to mess hours it was arranged that I was able to go in for an early meal half hour prior to regular hours.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

Well you learn something new every day, thanks CountDC.

Now, new thread?  The Cost of Rations for those in SQs is WAY too high.   ;D

Personally, I think the cost is too high.


----------



## CountDC (21 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Well you learn something new every day, thanks CountDC.
> 
> Now, new thread?  The Cost of Rations for those in SQs is WAY too high.   ;D
> 
> Personally, I think the cost is too high.



Although I am not living in SQ I do agree - the cost is too high from the price I have seen (haven't been to every kitchen in the CF so can't speak for everywhere). Hopefully it is being justified somewhere in a budget showing what is spent on rations and that the charge is only a cost recovery not a money maker.

By the way Sparkplug - just because it is the CFAO's so it is legal does not mean it is right. Regulations can be changed (many have already been replaced by DAODs) so it is a good chance to try to have this changed, just now you have the correct info to go on. I engourage you to continue the good fight and submit your argument. Encourage the others to submit with you as the more that complain the more likely you are to get action.  Point out that this reg was issued in 1988 and times have changed - most living in are no longer that 17 year old private that may need more attention and taking care of (not that all needed taking care of then).

Good luck and hope to see a canforgen changing this in the future.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> CFAO 36-14 NOTES 1 AND 5 solves this for you - save your time:
> 
> Notes -1.  When a member who is on ration strength cannot be provided with
> a meal from DND food services, he may claim for actual out-of-pocket
> ...



Yes, I've seen this paperwork, but they're not letting us work it that way.  Because the staff lets us come in late, and then leave early to go eat, it's not like we are "unable" to make the mess hours.  SUcks for them, but yes, they let us go, so I can't use this excuse.


----------



## CountDC (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> Yes, I've seen this paperwork, but they're not letting us work it that way.  Because the staff lets us come in late, and then leave early to go eat, it's not like we are "unable" to make the mess hours.  SUcks for them, but yes, they let us go, so I can't use this excuse.



ok - now I am confused. Your prior posts indicated that you were not aware of any regulation but now you say you have seen this paperwork?!?


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ok - now I am confused. Your prior posts indicated that you were not aware of any regulation but now you say you have seen this paperwork?!?



Sorry, I've just now re-read that, I thought the poster that posted it was referring only to the claiming meals part, I didn't notice the other part until just now.

So now I wonder, why have they only enforced this on a few of us?  The guy beside me doesn't have to pay rations, he pays cash when he goes in, yet he's still in SQ.  How do I bring that up?  Now that I've seen the reg, what recourse do I have?


----------



## TheCheez (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> So now I wonder, why have they only enforced this on a few of us?  The guy beside me doesn't have to pay rations, he pays cash when he goes in, yet he's still in SQ.  How do I bring that up?  Now that I've seen the reg, what recourse do I have?



You don't bring it up. Even if you say that you know there's people out there, without names, in SQ not paying rations some gung ho clerk is going to audit everyone. They should not give you an exception just because there's others slipping by under the radar.

If the rules support the position you're in now, then you have to find a way around the rules. I think the easiest way to get out of it is move out ASAP. Changing the rules or getting another exception added could take years.

In other news Trenton Q's start at 612/mo+utilities for 2 BR. Apartments in town are cheaper. You would need appliances, however.

Damn fire alarm goin off.


----------



## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> So now I wonder, why have they only enforced this on a few of us?  The guy beside me doesn't have to pay rations, he pays cash when he goes in, yet he's still in SQ.  How do I bring that up?  Now that I've seen the reg, what recourse do I have?



Pretty simple,

because that guy was already living in the shacks when the new regulations came into effect and therefore he was grandfathered and given a 3 month grace; you, on the other hand, moved into singles quarters after the new regulations came into effect and therefore -- no grace.

You'll also probably be quite disappointed to learn that all of us shiftworkers in Trenton got those midnight box lunchs provided for us --- regardless of whether we lived in the shacks or not ... so absolutely zero dollars of your monthly meal costs is going towards box lunchs - consider them more of a "free bonus" for being a shifty.

Hope you're enjoying snags. They (snags) never did seem too put out by allowing people to eat their requisite meals during shifts ... actually made a habit of hitting the Yukon Galley for lunch (especially on Fridays) and I think you are the first person in NATO that I've ever heard complaining about the lack of "choice" in that particular establishment actually.


----------



## Occam (21 Jul 2008)

Rations and quarters were delinked in 1999.

See http://hr.dwan.dnd.ca/orgpages/dgcb/dcba/engraph/delinking_e.asp and http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dfoodsvcs/Documents/Chapter%204ejan08.doc#_Ref10875876 (para 434).  (DWAN links only).

I'll post the contents of the first link below for reference purposes.



> DCBA 001 291500Z JAN 99
> 
> SIC WAN
> 
> ...


----------



## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

Occam said:
			
		

> Rations and quarters were delinked in 1999.
> 
> See http://hr.dwan.dnd.ca/orgpages/dgcb/dcba/engraph/delinking_e.asp and http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dfoodsvcs/Documents/Chapter%204ejan08.doc#_Ref10875876 (para 434).  (DWAN links only).
> 
> I'll post the contents of the first link below for reference purposes.



You'll note that para 1 quite clearly states:

"subject *to Command approval*".

And that para 2 says "*should* be made an *option*".

BTW -- it's an "option" that this base is now moving away from as well.

 :


----------



## Occam (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> ou'll note that para 1 quite clearly states:
> 
> "subject to Command approval".
> 
> :



You'll also note that para 3 quite clearly states "EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY ALL BASES ARE AUTHORIZED TO OFFER DE-LINKING FOR VOLUNTARY LIVING-IN MEMBERS SUBJECT TO MONTHLY PAY DEDUCTIONS FOR RATIONS...".   :

Para 1 describes how things worked prior to Jan 1999, which is why para 2 starts out " NOW THAT ASD AND OTHER USER PAY AND POINT OF SALE SYSTEMS ARE NOW OPERATING ACROSS THE COUNTRY IT WAS AGREED AT REF D...".


----------



## CountDC (21 Jul 2008)

Occam said:
			
		

> You'll also note that para 3 quite clearly states "EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY ALL BASES ARE AUTHORIZED TO OFFER DE-LINKING FOR VOLUNTARY LIVING-IN MEMBERS SUBJECT TO MONTHLY PAY DEDUCTIONS FOR RATIONS...".   :



now this is getting fun. ;D  

it says "ARE AUTHORIZED TO OFFER" it does not say that they MUST offer. Fine point but I garuntee as a clerk that this is the type of wording that will bite you in the arse.


----------



## Occam (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> BTW -- it's an "option" that this base is now moving away from as well.



Not according to CFB Gagetown Standing Orders.

http://armyonline.kingston.mil.ca/LFAA/143000440001108/5_1_8_DELINKING_R_Q.DOC


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## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

Occam said:
			
		

> Nice ninja edit, by the way



No ninja edit at all ... you'll note that I did it so soon afterwards that not even a post edit timing shows in the bottom of my post.  

Needless to say, many bases are now now going back to the old way; you want R&Q - you pay for R&Q.

As per the previous thread already linked into this one discussing the subject --

One simply can not continue to write-off hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of rations every month (and thus the taxpayer pay for it) based on a "living in member _may_ show up to eat this meal."


----------



## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

Occam said:
			
		

> Not according to CFB Gagetown Standing Orders.
> 
> http://armyonline.kingston.mil.ca/LFAA/143000440001108/5_1_8_DELINKING_R_Q.DOC



Did you read my post?

Gagetown is now "moving away" from this option. IE looking into others. IE is "moving away from". Last Comd O Gp. Hasn't it been passed on to you yet?


----------



## blacktriangle (21 Jul 2008)

This kind of stuff is what truly pisses me off...its so hard to get a straight answer on some things. So what is the end all, are they linked, delinked since 1999, or is it depending on where you live?


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## Occam (21 Jul 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> now this is getting fun. ;D
> 
> it says "ARE AUTHORIZED TO OFFER" it does not say that they MUST offer. Fine point but I garuntee as a clerk that this is the type of wording that will bite you in the arse.



I'd have to agree.  One would have to find out if Trenton decided to delink since they were authorized to back in '99.  The whole argument would hinge on the answer to that question.


----------



## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> This kind of stuff is what truly pisses me off...its so hard to get a straight answer on some things. So what is the end all, are they linked, delinked since 1999, or is it depending on where you live?



It's a option ... at Command's discretion. Exactly as stated in the given refs below. But, at those bases where this was previously offered as an option -- many are considering going back to the old way as this is costing the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in written off food - and that's simply - not on.


----------



## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

Occam said:
			
		

> I'd have to agree.  One would have to find out if Trenton decided to delink since they were authorized to back in '99.  The whole argument would hinge on the answer to that question.



Read her very first post. Trenton was delinked ... and has given those members who did delink a 3 month grace before they start paying again.

Sometimes, you know, it helps to read the entire thread.  

Obviously, Trenton is one of those locations who is reverting to the old way. You stay - you pay, not the taxpayers. Makes sense to me.


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## Grunt_031 (21 Jul 2008)

For lunch you can have your CofC put in a req for box meal (Breakfast/Lunch/Supper). The only problem is they are usually not the healthiest meal. I found if you order a specialty meal (ie Vegetarian/No Sulfides) you get a more hand made substitute. I have used this for almost a year and avoid all the lineups at the mess (and it is 15 min travel time from my work place to the mess).

And as far as I know the pers in Wainwright have been relinked with no options for meals plans such that is in effect in Edmonton.


----------



## Occam (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Read her very first post. Trenton was delinked ... and has given those members who did delink a 3 month grace before they start paying again.
> 
> Sometimes, you know, it helps to read the entire thread.



That's not what she said.



> *Also, people who arrived here before I did, did not have to link up*...  There was an email printed out and taped on the wall that said that the personnel currently de-linked would be forced to link with a 3 month grace period.  *This has not come down yet, and those not paying rations, have not been told that they will have to re-link*.



It would also be interesting to find out the source of the e-mail in question - was it from someone in authority, or was it from the Chief Bottle Washer?



> Obviously, Trenton is one of those locations who is reverting to the old way. You stay - you pay, not the taxpayers. Makes sense to me.



The bean counters must've seen it differently back in 1999, or they wouldn't have authorized a change.


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## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

Occam said:
			
		

> That's not what she said.
> 
> It would also be interesting to find out the source of the e-mail in question - was it from someone in authority, or was it from the Chief Bottle Washer?
> 
> The bean counters must've seen it differently back in 1999, or they wouldn't have authorized a change.



It certainly SEEMS to be exactly what she said.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/78270/post-736002.html#msg736002

Apparently, the bean counters have since realized that you STILL have to buy enough food to feed everyone "living in" "every meal" "every day" -- just in case they show up to eat it. And guess who pays for the written-off food when those members do not show up to eat (thus pay for it)?? And, apparently, Jane & Joe taxpayer have a problem with that ... as do I - it's MY taxes too, and we are not talking nickles and dimes.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> It certainly SEEMS to be exactly what she said.
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/78270/post-736002.html#msg736002
> 
> Apparently, the bean counters have since realized that you STILL have to buy enough food to feed everyone "living in" "every meal" "every day" -- just in case they show up to eat it. And guess who pays for the written-off food when those members do not show up to eat (thus pay for it)?? And, apparently, Jane & Joe taxpayer have a problem with that ... as do I - it's MY taxes too, and we are not talking nickles and dimes.



I said what was quoted... No one has been told that they are being re-linked.  No one.  There are people who have gotten here after I did, who weren't forced on rations as well, I've been asking around today.  Hey, it's my taxes too, and also my $427 a month.  It would be cheaper for you, and all the other taxpayers, if they just let me buy my own groceries.  Besides, like I said, in Trenton, most of the people who eat at the mess are cash customers.  For the size of this base, a couple hundred people on meal cards would not add up to all the food they have to make anyway 'just in case' all the civvies and cash payers come in that day.

And I'm sorry if I'm the only one to ever complain about Trenton's mess.  As far as I've seen, it's pretty much the same as the mess in Borden and Cold Lake, selection-wise.  Box lunches are not a healthy, nutritious meal, and they're not enough to feed even me for 12 hours.  The fact that we're not allowed to take food out from the mess, like supper leftovers, etc, instead of a box lunch, is stupid.  And as far as the box lunch being a 'freebie' for being a shiftworker, how do you explain the fact that we've been forbidden from eating lunch on the day we get a box lunch.  We were told it counts as our third meal, so we're not entitled to lunch.  So who's eating my lunch that I'm paying for, if my box lunch is 'free'?


----------



## Nfld Sapper (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> I said what was quoted... No one has been told that they are being re-linked.  No one.  There are people who have gotten here after I did, who weren't forced on rations as well, I've been asking around today.  Hey, it's my taxes too, and also my $427 a month.  It would be cheaper for you, and all the other taxpayers, if they just let me buy my own groceries.  Besides, like I said, in Trenton, most of the people who eat at the mess are cash customers.  For the size of this base, a couple hundred people on meal cards would not add up to all the food they have to make anyway 'just in case' all the civvies and cash payers come in that day.
> 
> And I'm sorry if I'm the only one to ever complain about Trenton's mess.  As far as I've seen, it's pretty much the same as the mess in Borden and Cold Lake, selection-wise.  Box lunches are not a healthy, nutritious meal, and they're not enough to feed even me for 12 hours.  The fact that we're not allowed to take food out from the mess, like supper leftovers, etc, instead of a box lunch, is stupid.  And as far as the box lunch being a 'freebie' for being a shiftworker, how do you explain the fact that we've been forbidden from eating lunch on the day we get a box lunch.  We were told it counts as our third meal, so we're not entitled to lunch.  So who's eating my lunch that I'm paying for, if my box lunch is 'free'?



To me something doesn't add up, granted I'm on TD here but eventhough I am provided with a box lunch from the courses that come thru my training area I can go to the Mess Hall and use my meal card if I want to.


----------



## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> I said what was quoted... No one has been told that they are being re-linked.  No one.  There are people who have gotten here after I did, who weren't forced on rations as well, I've been asking around today.  Hey, it's my taxes too, and also my $427 a month.  It would be cheaper for you, and all the other taxpayers, if they just let me buy my own groceries.  Besides, like I said, in Trenton, most of the people who eat at the mess are cash customers.  For the size of this base, a couple hundred people on meal cards would not add up to all the food they have to make anyway 'just in case' all the civvies and cash payers come in that day.
> 
> And I'm sorry if I'm the only one to ever complain about Trenton's mess.  As far as I've seen, it's pretty much the same as the mess in Borden and Cold Lake, selection-wise.  Box lunches are not a healthy, nutritious meal, and they're not enough to feed even me for 12 hours.  The fact that we're not allowed to take food out from the mess, like supper leftovers, etc, instead of a box lunch, is stupid.  And as far as the box lunch being a 'freebie' for being a shiftworker, how do you explain the fact that we've been forbidden from eating lunch on the day we get a box lunch.  We were told it counts as our third meal, so we're not entitled to lunch.  So who's eating my lunch that I'm paying for, if my box lunch is 'free'?



Well, as per your post -- if you're eating a midnight box lunch as a part of the Snags crew --- you aren't working at lunch time.

I never said box lunchs were good meals -- I said they were "Bonus" meals ... as in "free".

And obviously, it being cheaper on us taxpayers is NOT bearing out to be factual --- with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of food being written off because the people aren't showing up to eat it. 

It may indeed be cheaper for _you_, the individual, (you say you can't eat that much a month, but most complain they don't get enough food at the mess - so ... you're the exception) - but the CF (and Jane & Joe taxpayer) don't operate on an "individual" basis. And, if you're on a special diet, low carb, vegan, whatever, the Yukon Galley will provide specialized meals for you if you just bother to ask through your CoC (as already suggested to you in this thread).

Now, if you're telling me that Snags does not let you get up and walk the 5 minute jaunt to the kitchen to eat your lunch -- that's a whole 'nother matter entirely, but that does not seem to be the case.

And, my other comment came from this statement of yours:



> Also, people who arrived here before I did, did not have to link up...  There was an email printed out and taped on the wall *that said that the personnel currently de-linked would be forced to link with a 3 month grace period.  * This has not come down yet, and those not paying rations, have not been told that they will have to re-link.



hmmmm, certainly seems to me like you said that those who were currently delinked were being given a 3 month grace period before they had to relink.

You don't want people to be confused and misunderstand you? Stop contradicting yourself.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> And as far as the box lunch being a 'freebie' for being a shiftworker, how do you explain the fact that we've been forbidden from eating lunch on the day we get a box lunch.  We were told it counts as our third meal, so we're not entitled to lunch.  So who's eating my lunch that I'm paying for, if my box lunch is 'free'?




Well now, isn't that a kick in the buttocks......this gets better and better.
Do the living out per get box lunches on night shift also?


----------



## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> To me something doesn't add up, granted I'm on TD here but eventhough I am provided with a box lunch from the courses that come thru my training area I can go to the Mess Hall and use my meal card if I want to.



And, they can in Trenton too.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, as per your post -- if you're eating a midnight box lunch as a part of the Snags crew --- you aren't working at lunch time.
> 
> I never said box lunchs were good meals -- I said they were "Bonus" meals ... as in "free".
> 
> ...



I am not entitled to eat meals only when I am working.  I am paying for three meals a day on this card, so if what you said is right, that box lunches are free, than I should still be entitled to wake up and go eat lunch.  Otherwise I'm only getting my two meals that I'm paying for.  

Yes, Snags lets me go to lunch, that's not what I'm saying.....  The give us the box lunches for our midnight meal, but we were told on those days, we were not allowed to eat lunch during the day.

The email that was printed said they were going to be given three months grace...  I'm not contradicting myself, I simply said that no one had been told that yet.  All the guys who are currently de-linked, have not been told that they will be de-linked.  The email said it, but it hasn't come down as anything official yet.  Most people living in, had no idea that some people were being forced, they haven't been told anything.  

And you're still not addressing the question I had where if it's just us living-ins on meal cards that are causing the wasted food and money problems, why are they letting everyone else eat with cash?  There are a ton of civvies and mbrs that pay by cash, what about them?


----------



## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Well now, isn't that a kick in the buttocks......this gets better and better.
> Do the living out per get box lunches on night shift also?



Thinking the same as me eh? I'm waiting for a response now from one of my snags buds. He's currently -- out to lunch.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Well now, isn't that a kick in the buttocks......this gets better and better.
> Do the living out per get box lunches on night shift also?



No, they don't.  We've been told that we are paying for the box lunch, hence why we're not allowed to eat lunch at the mess on the days that we're given a box lunch.  I'd like to think that if it were 'free', as Vern said, everyone would be getting one, not just those of us on rations strength.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I never said box lunchs were good meals -- I said they were "Bonus" meals ... as in "free"



Can't see how they are free if she can't wake up by noon and eat the meal she is PAYING for....

Wow 3 posts since I typed this...oh well, here it goes anyway, hope it fits.


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## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> I am not entitled to eat meals only when I am working.  I am paying for three meals a day on this card, so if what you said is right, that box lunches are free, than I should still be entitled to wake up and go eat lunch.  Otherwise I'm only getting my two meals that I'm paying for.
> 
> Yes, Snags lets me go to lunch, that's not what I'm saying.....  The give us the box lunches for our midnight meal, but we were told on those days, we were not allowed to eat lunch during the day.
> 
> ...



Regardless of the amount of civvies they forecast -- they also HAVE TO HAVE ENOUGH food on hand to feed "all living in pers" "all meals" "every day" just in case you decide to show up. 

Bruce,

IF that's the case - then something's wrong. See my last post to you. ALL shiftworkers got box lunchs (those living out as well) for a midnight meal. I'm waiting for a response back from a Snags crew member now to confirm whether or not that actually IS the case - it sure wasn't the case a short while ago.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Regardless of the amount of civvies they forecast -- they also HAVE TO HAVE ENOUGH food on hand to feed "all living in pers" "all meals" "every day" just in case you decide to show up.
> 
> Bruce,
> 
> IF that's the case - then somethings wrong. ALL shiftworkers got box lunchs (those living out as well) for a midnight meal. I'm waiting for a response back from a Snags crew member now to confirm whether or not that actually IS the case - it sure wasn't the case a short while ago.



Only living-in personnel are entitled to night shift box lunches.  If the living-out personnel were to request them, they would have to be paid for by the unit, and the unit won't do that, seeing as they're living out, there's no reason they can't bring a lunch.  We're already paying for them, so the WO sends a letter over to Food Services, requesting box lunches for those of us living-in.  Do you really think I'd come on a site like this and lie about it?  I'm on the snags crew here, I'm just telling you the way it is.


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## armyvern (21 Jul 2008)

CFAO 36-14 Entitlement to meals and public rations 

Aircrew and support personnel:  Aircrew and support personnel required for a continuous state of readiness which is longer than the normal duty period will be provided with meals at no charge for the duration of the readiness period.  (after the normal 8 hour work day, one should be provided with the box lunch supplemental meal at no charge; regardless of whether one lives in or out.)

Aircrew and support personnel on a continuous state of readiness will receive rations on the same basis as the living-out member not subject to deductions for rations but will continue to be charged for rations through monthly deductions unless their duty precludes them from eating at their assigned mess for more than 24 hours, in which case, charges shall be remitted for the entire period (in multiples of 24 hours).


----------



## Strike (21 Jul 2008)

Oh, and Vern, the mess food in Trenton has gone downhill quite a bit.  The salad bar is pretty good, but the food on the line is all starch and salt.  Even the healthy choice isn't.  I remember seeing deep fried fish once.  The problem is that all the messes are being treated as if all the bases are "open" for work hours from 8-16.  As I recall, the Yukon mess used to have flexible hours that reflected the working hours of the base quite a bit better because of the 24hr SAR requirement and the maintenance hours.  This is no longer the case.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> CFAO 36-14 Entitlement to meals and public rations
> 
> Aircrew and support personnel:  Aircrew and support personnel required for a continuous state of readiness which is longer than the normal duty period will be provided with meals at no charge for the duration of the readiness period.  (after the normal 8 hour work day, one should be provided with the box lunch supplemental meal at no charge; regardless of whether one lives in or out.)
> 
> Aircrew and support personnel on a continuous state of readiness will receive rations on the same basis as the living-out member not subject to deductions for rations but will continue to be charged for rations through monthly deductions unless their duty precludes them from eating at their assigned mess for more than 24 hours, in which case, charges shall be remitted for the entire period (in multiples of 24 hours).



But 12 hours is our normal duty period, does that make a difference?


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> Oh, and Vern, the mess food in Trenton has gone downhill quite a bit.  The salad bar is pretty good, but the food on the line is all starch and salt.  Even the healthy choice isn't.  I remember seeing deep fried fish once.  The problem is that all the messes are being treated as if all the bases are "open" for work hours from 8-16.  As I recall, the Yukon mess used to have flexible hours that reflected the working hours of the base quite a bit better because of the 24hr SAR requirement and the maintenance hours.  This is no longer the case.



Every friday is deep fried fish day.  Even the healthy or vegetarian choices are often deep fried.  One can only eat so many sandwiches.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Jul 2008)

I wonder if anyone at Trenton is reading this?


----------



## Strike (21 Jul 2008)

Bruce, it has less to do with Trenton itself and more to do with the company (whose name scapes me at this moment) that seems to be taking over all the bases to provide food services.  I'll tell you, the WO/Sgts mess in Kingston is much better than Trenton (not the salad bar though) with what is offered on the line.  The healthy selection is just that (example being stir fried veggies and tofu).

As an aside and back to the box lunch issue wrt Trenton, other than the generic lunch that has sandwiches that last +3 months, what do they offer for a healthy choice?  If I was in that situation I'd be more likely to buy somehing at a deli that I know was made fresh along with a nice piece of fruit (one can only eat so many oranges) and cheese.  It's kinda gross to get the macaronni salad that has more dressing by weight than anything else in the container.


----------



## SupersonicMax (21 Jul 2008)

Sodexo is the company I believe.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> Bruce, it has less to do with Trenton itself and more to do with the company (whose name scapes me at this moment) that seems to be taking over all the bases to provide food services.  I'll tell you, the WO/Sgts mess in Kingston is much better than Trenton (not the salad bar though) with what is offered on the line.  The healthy selection is just that (example being stir fried veggies and tofu).
> 
> As an aside and back to the box lunch issue wrt Trenton, other than the generic lunch that has sandwiches that last +3 months, what do they offer for a healthy choice?  If I was in that situation I'd be more likely to buy somehing at a deli that I know was made fresh along with a nice piece of fruit (one can only eat so many oranges) and cheese.  It's kinda gross to get the macaronni salad that has more dressing by weight than anything else in the container.



You can ask for a vegetarian lunch, or any sort of specialized diet, and I ask for the veggie lunches as often as I can.  They're not filling, but at least it's more than a Jos Louis, 2 ham sandwiches, 2 juice boxes and an orange.  There is no 'healthy choice' box lunch though.  I would much rather buy things to make my own lunch with as well.


----------



## Strike (21 Jul 2008)

There's got to me more than that!  What if 2 pilots on the same crew are both asking for the vegetarian meal?  They can't be the same.  (Well, they could, but it's a really bad idea.)  Way to test Murphy's Law.


----------



## meni0n (21 Jul 2008)

Try asking for dairy free box lunch. Blank stares all around.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Try asking for dairy free box lunch. Blank stares all around.



When I was on WASF for Maple Flag in Cold Lake, we had to eat box lunches as well, and I asked for no dairy, because we had no way to refrigerate them at the posts, and without fail, every one of them had cheese on the sandwiches, and cheese and crackers in it.  The vegetarian meal also had ham in the salad, it was actually pretty funny.


----------



## CountDC (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> But 12 hours is our normal duty period, does that make a difference?


the regulation is in regards to THE normal duty period which is 8 hours.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> the regulation is in regards to THE normal duty period which is 8 hours.



Then that means someone screwed up when they told us we weren't allowed to eat lunch in the mess.  I definitely have to bring this up the chain, seeing as there are living out guys who would like box lunches, and some of us do wake up at lunchtime, and would like to eat the meal that we are paying for.


----------



## CountDC (21 Jul 2008)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Try asking for dairy free box lunch. Blank stares all around.



ROFLFAO now that one I like!!!!!


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Jul 2008)

Would most of the money you pay for rations goes to wages for the civilian employees?  I'm wondering if Base Commanders are feeling the heat from the UNDE locals.
Just a thought.

I agree with the de-linking, but.....if you are living in quarters quite often there are prohibitions on major appliances (stoves/hotplates etc). This makes it kinda hard to cook proper meals etc.

My son and his buddy are into a PMQ on their return from the sandbox. That alleviates the R part of R & Q.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> now this is getting fun. ;D
> 
> it says "ARE AUTHORIZED TO OFFER" it does not say that they MUST offer. Fine point but I garuntee as a clerk that this is the type of wording that will bite you in the arse.



Should...Shall...May.  Shall is the only word there that means imperative.  QR & O's refer to the meaning IIRC.  No shall, its up to the Commander.


----------



## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Would most of the money you pay for rations goes to wages for the civilian employees?  I'm wondering if Base Commanders are feeling the heat from the UNDE locals.
> Just a thought.
> 
> I agree with the de-linking, but.....if you are living in quarters quite often there are prohibitions on major appliances (stoves/hotplates etc). This makes it kinda hard to cook proper meals etc.
> ...



I'll be getting into a pmq next year...  I have a 10 month TD in the US to do, as well as an overseas tour or two, so I don't want to pay for a Q or apartment if I'm not there for that long.  Things will be fine after that, it's just until then.

We aren't allowed appliances in the room, but in the common area here, there is a fridge, microwave, toaster oven, george foreman grill, and a microwave.  This is more than enough for a person to eat their own meals here.  I did it for two years in college, I'm sure I can do it here.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Obviously, Trenton is one of those locations who is reverting to the old way. You stay - you pay, not the taxpayers. Makes sense to me.



But in a case like mine, I do not show up at the mess/galley expecting food for me because I did not opt for R, just Q.  Does the KO not order food based on actual numbers of paying mbrs vice perceived?  

This is where it must be hard to please the living-in mbrs, the ones that like to pay as they go, regular or otherwise, people that  show up on TD and require R & Q (I know when we were on TD trips from the HQ in Hfx to Gagetown, we would put in our R & Q requests the week or so prior in case dates changed..how does the KO plan for that?).

Sounds like a headache to me and I bet there are some chain-smoking rations clerks out there who hate the lot of us!


----------



## NL_engineer (21 Jul 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No ninja edit at all ... you'll note that I did it so soon afterwards that not even a post edit timing shows in the bottom of my post.
> 
> Needless to say, many bases are now now going back to the old way; you want R&Q - you pay for R&Q.
> 
> ...



They do still do enough cash sales at lunch with the people who forgot to pack lunch/don't want to go home  :  _Edited to_ add  or unit funded lunches (TF/Ex/teams/etc)


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> And you're still not addressing the question I had where if it's just us living-ins on meal cards that are causing the wasted food and money problems, why are they letting everyone else eat with cash?  There are a ton of civvies and mbrs that pay by cash, what about them?



Exactly what I am thinking.  Maybe if the mess stops doing this, and says to THESE folks "on ration strength, or off, no walk-ins" the Ration Clerks would be able to better order the right amounts of the cook's would be able to prepare the correct amount of food per feeding frenzy, which is not the case as Vern is making clear, $$$$$$ of food is being wasted.

This seems like a 'good grouping, wrong target' fix to me.  Stop feeding the people who don't want to go on rations, period.  There goes your waste!

But, they will re-link everyone in SQs to cut back their wasted food amounts and then let Biff and Ted who aren't on Ration Strength walk in for lunch?  Thats not right IMO.


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## Strike (21 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> But, they will re-link everyone in SQs to cut back their wasted food amounts and then let Biff and Ted who aren't on Ration Strength walk in for lunch?  Thats not right IMO.



Exactly.  Imagine if everyone living in decided to all go to lunch one day.  Add the cadets and the cash sales and you can bet that there will be some serious shortages.  Pitty the poor sap who comes in at the end of the meal and his onlt options are leftover chicken fingers in the salad bar and rib-on-a-bun.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> Every friday is deep fried fish day.  Even the healthy or vegetarian choices are often deep fried.  One can only eat so many sandwiches.



This should be reported to the CoC immediately if you want to see it resolved.  In 199X, I was teaching a QL3 course that ate in H22 (Gagetown). The students complained that, for 3 nights they had only had hot dogs, burgers and fries (as we were on staggered meal times, and on the latest timing).  The next night, I went into H22 with the course to watch and see.  They were right.  The salad bar had not been replenned, no choices, the fries even sucked the big hairy one.  It was pretty bad, in all honesty.

I spoke to the Cook Sgt, who got all hot under the collar and swore at me.  I left before I got madder, and reported this to the Sgt-Major in our mess over a glass of draught in the A lines that night, the next morning I was explaining what was going on to the RSM at breakfast with the Sgt-Major.

Problem was solved before the noon feeding time that day.  Let the people who can make changes know the issues.


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## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This should be reported to the CoC immediately if you want to see it resolved.  In 199X, I was teaching a QL3 course that ate in H22 (Gagetown). The students complained that, for 3 nights they had only had hot dogs, burgers and fries (as we were on staggered meal times, and on the latest timing).  The next night, I went into H22 with the course to watch and see.  They were right.  The salad bar had not been replenned, no choices, the fries even sucked the big hairy one.  It was pretty bad, in all honesty.
> 
> I spoke to the Cook Sgt, who got all hot under the collar and swore at me.  I left before I got madder, and reported this to the Sgt-Major in our mess over a glass of draught in the A lines that night, the next morning I was explaining what was going on to the RSM at breakfast with the Sgt-Major.
> 
> Problem was solved before the noon feeding time that day.  Let the people who can make changes know the issues.



I will be bringing this up the chain.  Thanks for the info, I'm glad to know that once in awhile, things can be done.

Because we get off at 1800 on days, and the mess closes at 1830, we often end up with the 'leftovers'...  Old fries, monte crisco fried sandwiches from 2 hours prior, no dessert beyond cookies, no soup often, it's frustrating after working for 12 hours to see that.  One time, the "healthy choice" was deep fried tofu drenched in alfredo sauce.  Healthy for who?  Oh man.


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## PMedMoe (21 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> This should be reported to the CoC immediately if you want to see it resolved.



Sometimes there are Suggestion Boxes at the Messes that actually get checked, too!  When I was on course in Borden (1995), it was discovered that I had gallstones.  I was scheduled for surgery but I had to eat a low-fat diet until the surgery date.  Can you believe they had NO low fat or zero fat dressings at the salad bar?  I put a note in the suggestion box, stating that I required low or no-fat salad dressing due to medical reasons and they were there the next day.

Spark, regarding your complaint, I've been there and wish you luck in getting your situation changed.
At the very least, if they made one rule across the board, then it wouldn't be only certain living-in people paying for rations.


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## CountDC (21 Jul 2008)

ok - I am being lazy right now and not going back to look for it but there was a post earlier that  suggested you refrain from causing waves over the fact that some were being charge while others are not.  I say BS - If this is the case, which I do belief Spark that it is, then it should be raisedas a point.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

First and foremost, try and get it in writing that is in effect.  (ie a copy of the directive, the source itself, in print) This will tell you the details, and the level this was decided at.  Only from that document can you make an informed decision, the rest is spec fire at this point really.

So, my advice, request a copy of the order/directive/authority in which the details were laid out.


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## blacktriangle (21 Jul 2008)

Until then I suggest getting some vector cereal and a protein shake mix... get a rack of banannas, some apples and some rice and pasta if you can find a way to cook them. No life like it...  ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

I get by on a mini-fridge, microwave, and a ricemaker.  Its doable.  And I eat healthy like this.


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## blacktriangle (21 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I get by on a mini-fridge, microwave, and a ricemaker.  Its doable.  And I eat healthy like this.


That's exactly how I want to live...just on base by the gym. Now I'm so torn.


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## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I get by on a mini-fridge, microwave, and a ricemaker.  Its doable.  And I eat healthy like this.



Exactly! Add a toaster oven to that and I'd be more than fine.  I could eat better, healthier, and cheaper than at the mess.  I don't care if the mess is 'convenient', it's not worth it for me.


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## aesop081 (21 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> I just want fair and equal treatment.  If they don't have to be on rations, why should I?



Judging by the information you have posted, those people not currently linked will be forced on ration strenght in 3 months as well. They were under an old policy that has been changed and have been given 3 months to learn to deal with that. You arrived under the Wing's new policy hence why you are immediately on ration strenght. 3 months from now you and your neighbour will all be paying rations so there's no "us  &them".


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

The toaster oven and hot plate, etc are prohibited here.  I would check your SQ Regulations for what you can have in your locale.  Even with PLD at $630ish here for Halifax, this is the least expensive living for me right now.  That wouldn't be the case if I had to take Rations, and I'd be outta here.


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## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Judging by the information you have posted, those people not currently linked will be forced on ration strenght in 3 months as well. They were under an old policy that has been changed and have been given 3 months to learn to deal with that. You arrived under the Wing's new policy hence why you are immediately on ration strenght. 3 months from now you and your neighbour will all be paying rations so there's no "us  &them".



That's what I'm trying to tell you.  That CFAO came out awhile ago, and no one has been informed that the 3 month grace period has put into place.  If they were going to put someone back on rations, wouldn't they need to warn them first?  

Also, why have people who arrived here after I did, not have to go on rations?


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## Sparkplugs (21 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The toaster oven and hot plate, etc are prohibited here.  I would check your SQ Regulations for what you can have in your locale.  Even with PLD at $630ish here for Halifax, this is the least expensive living for me right now.  That wouldn't be the case if I had to take Rations, and I'd be outta here.



They are in the common room here, not my room.  We're authorized to use them in there.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Judging by the information you have posted, those people not currently linked will be forced on ration strenght in 3 months as well. They were under an old policy that has been changed and have been given 3 months to learn to deal with that. You arrived under the Wing's new policy hence why you are immediately on ration strenght. 3 months from now you and your neighbour will all be paying rations so there's no "us  &them".



Which may be the case but I still think she has some issues that should be dealt with, specifically not being allowed to go to lunch because she got a box meal at midnight......


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## Strike (21 Jul 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Judging by the information you have posted, those people not currently linked will be forced on ration strenght in 3 months as well. They were under an old policy that has been changed and have been given 3 months to learn to deal with that. You arrived under the Wing's new policy hence why you are immediately on ration strenght. 3 months from now you and your neighbour will all be paying rations so there's no "us  &them".



Keep reading.  The word was that is was going to happen, but there has not been a deadline on this 3 months yet.  So technically, until this deadline is set, everyone coming in should have the option of being on rations or not.

FYI - My weekly grocery bill comes to between $50-75 depending on what I need for meats.  That's including all fresh foods and no frozen or prepackaged junk (except sometimes I do go for frozen veggies). (single person of course)  The price of rations must include the cost of preparation because there is no need to be paying that much, especially when all the purchases are bulk.  Oh, and I can put away quite a bit of food, so it's not like I'm skimping on portion size.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> That's exactly how I want to live...just on base by the gym. Now I'm so torn.



Well get a posting to 12 Wing, and live-in at Warrior Block.  I am looking out my window at the gym, a whole 300m's away, while I am eating the bowl of mixed veggies I heated up in my microwave.  Yup.  Living the dream I am!   :


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

Strike said:
			
		

> Keep reading.  The word was that is was going to happen, but there has not been a deadline on this 3 months yet.  So technically, until this deadline is set, everyone coming in should have the option of being on rations or not.
> 
> FYI - My weekly grocery bill comes to between $50-75 depending on what I need for meats.  That's including all fresh foods and no frozen or prepackaged junk (except sometimes I do go for frozen veggies). (single person of course)  The price of rations must include the cost of preparation because there is no need to be paying that much, especially when all the purchases are bulk.  Oh, and I can put away quite a bit of food, so it's not like I'm skimping on portion size.



Agreed on the bulk part, but someone has to order/deliver/prepare/serve that food.  Staff is hired to make sure there is cutlury there for you, plates, cups, etc for when you arrive, and someone cleans it when you leave.  I know, its not much of an explaination to some but...if you consider the convienence of it, there is that.  No grocery shopping, no dishes to do, someone makes my eggs for me, etc.  There are 2 sides to a coin.   

I know for me, my breaky is 500ml of skim milk ($0.50) , a package of oatmeal ($0.30) w/flax seed powder, 2 pieces of fruit ($1).  Can't do much healthier and cheaper than that.  I am a fair size guy and I don't eat $500 a month in groceries.  I also *know* I can't eat as 'clean' in the mess as I do in my penthouse suite here in Trump Palace, aka Warrior Block 3rd floor.  (its the penthouse 'cause its right across from the bathroom  8))


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## Zoomie (21 Jul 2008)

The CFAO that Vern linked does not apply in this case.  Servicing crews are expected to bring a lunch/meal from home.  Only the aircrew of SAR units are able to eat at the eating Mess or get box lunches - as they are not permitted to leave the hangar.  The only exception to this would be crews involved with maintaining and servicing the alert aircraft in the QRA.



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> What if 2 pilots on the same crew are both asking for the vegetarian meal?  They can't be the same.



Sure they can - the orders are very specific and only really affect those who are flying transatlantic or in the arctic.


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## Greymatters (21 Jul 2008)

Just a quick post so I dont lose this thread...


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jul 2008)

Ok I am missing something then.  IIRC, the CFAO spoke about the duration of duty being key...i.e. +8 hours.  

And...you didn't make sense when you said 





> Only the aircrew of SAR units are able to eat at the eating Mess or get box lunches - as they are not permitted to leave the hangar.


  How can they eat at the eating mess if they are not allowed to leave the hanger?

And the issue isn't really about the tech's not on rations, rather the ones that are, and are given a box lunch and told they can't eat at the mess.  

They won't let you eat an 'extra' meal?  They should have to reimburse you for the ones you miss then.  You can't have your cake and not eat it too.


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## HItorMiss (21 Jul 2008)

Vern

I don;'t see how it's wasting tax payer money to delink, food ordered is based on personel linked, so those not on Ration strength would/should not be taken into account past the cash sales number. There should not be hundreds of thousands of dollars of wasted money going to a person who may eat here, as that is what the linking sysem is about no?
 It gives the kitchen planning staff the hard numbers on pers who pay for Rations and should be attending meals. The should in there is some days you eat out or at a friends you know?

Or am I totaly misreading your post about this?


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## Zoomie (22 Jul 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> How can they eat at the eating mess if they are not allowed to leave the hanger?



I knew that question would come up - I just couldn't find a grammatically correct way of fitting in the complete picture in my last post.

SAR crews can not leave the hangar - the only exception is if all of them leave together to go and eat at the mess.  We all trundle off down the road - the FO diligently carrying the duty cell phone.  That way if we get launched - we can all make the collective sprint together.

At the flying schools - we routinely will schedule our students to fly over the meal hours at the mess.  They must order a box lunch (if linked) and then are not eligible for a steam line meal if their mission is canceled, etc.


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## RatCatcher (6 Aug 2008)

Hello all;

Couldn't find any info on this so I am throwing it out to all of you, Mods feel free to move this topic if not in the right cat. 

Anyone know if the NCO quarters in Borden have internet (such as Juno Tower in Halifax...plug and play) or if we are required to go through civvie company.

Your help is appreciated


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## NCRCrow (6 Aug 2008)

totally off topic, but after Juno Tower everything else is Sh*t

I went to CFB Kingston on a two week course and they had me in a room with a roomate. 

I was like this is way you treat Senior NCO's!

Esquimalt C&PO's is just as bad!


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## PMedMoe (6 Aug 2008)

RatCatcher,

Because of the mixed ranks on your course, you will more likely be in the quarters that we had on course last year.  IIRC, these are located on Rafah Cres just behind the Mail room and next to where PSP (CFPSA?) is.  Walking distance to Bleacher's!

You will be required to go through a civilian company for internet in the quarters.  There is internet available at the Snr NCO's mess.


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## aerobat (6 Nov 2008)

Hello just completed BMQ in St Jean Oct 31. Got to Borden and settled in was happy to find good internet here. Once i got hooked up I found out i am moving to Kingston to start my AVS course (POET). Any one have any idea of the possibility of internet during that course and how the barracks compare to Borden? Like to I have acces to my computer/cell phone etc?


Future AVS Tech


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Nov 2008)

I can't comment on the barracks that POET candidates stay in.  My buddy did POET recently and he never complained too much about them, so they can't be that bad.  According to the LCIS Tech Sgt in my shop, new shacks are being built close to the soccer field.

Re: Internet connection, from Para 48 of the CFSCE Joining Instructions: (IntraNet/DIN link)

48. Installations of telephone, Internet and Cable television services are permitted in quarters at the individual's expense. Requests for the installations of these services must be made through the chain of command. A common area is provided with Televisions and VCR's for students' use. Pay phones and a Base phone are also located in each Barrack Block.

Also, from the JI's, Para 49 (c)(iii):

iii.  Personnel on TD here (from Borden), i.e. AVN, AVS or FCS techs will not live out;

CFSCE Intranet/DIN Site Homepage


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## fire_guy686 (6 Nov 2008)

If I remember correctly POET students stay in B6. B6 and B7 from what I saw when I was there are pretty much identical. 4 person rooms, but quite a bit of space to keep your personal kit. As far as Internet goes, my course wasn't allowed to get it until after the fourth week of course and you had to send a memo up though the chain to get approval. That was all of course based on your performance during the course. If you were a pump, chances are they aren't going to approve your internet request. Cell phones were good to go as long as they were off during classes.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Nov 2008)

You were a Traf Tech at CFSCE ???


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## Strike (6 Nov 2008)

Wireless is available at the JRs.


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## fire_guy686 (6 Nov 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You were a Traf Tech at CFSCE ???



Negative. Started out 052 and wasn't quite comfortable with the climbing side of things. Did a COT and am now a Tfc Tech. So I was at CFSCE as a student and during my time at PRETC in the lovely posistion of duty driver taking troops to CFSCE for course.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Nov 2008)

MAMS_933 said:
			
		

> Negative. Started out 052 and wasn't quite comfortable with the climbing side of things. Did a COT and am now a Tfc Tech. So I was at CFSCE as a student and during my time at PRETC in the lovely posistion of duty driver taking troops to CFSCE for course.



Roger that.  I think the folks on POET run things differently.  Everyone who wanted it got Internet on my friends POET.  It wasn't a privilege as they were the ones paying for it, or something like that.


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## Nfld Sapper (6 Nov 2008)

While on my WSO Course the Armoured DP 1's up stairs had internet while on course. Now only if I could have broken their encryption  >


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## fire_guy686 (6 Nov 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Roger that.  I think the folks on POET run things differently.  Everyone who wanted it got Internet on my friends POET.  It wasn't a privilege as they were the ones paying for it, or something like that.



More than likely. It is different between every course so who the heck really knows. They'll find out when they arrive.


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## fire_guy686 (6 Nov 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> While on my WSO Course the Armoured DP 1's up stairs had internet while on course. Now only if I could have broken their encryption  >



I remember doing that at CFSCE actually. Stealing wireless off the Sig Op's downstairs or the Lineman on their QL5 course. Until they figured us out and changed the settings on the router.


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## Havic (13 Jan 2009)

The mess in Borden is terrible if you want to eat healthy you better get their early, The fruit is limited, and when it is available its rotten or tastes bad.  if you want a sandwich your waiting 15min at lunch. And the selection on food is awful compared to other bases, . They always run out of salad. They run out of cups, don't fill the juice machines myself and many others are extremely angered at the price we are paying for such bad service. The mess is over crowded and they must be understaffed. The dessert table is huge and plentiful though. And no one in CFSATE can opt out of the mess food unless living out. Is their anything we can do to fix this. It seems like no one cares, or maybe we just have to suck it up.


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## PMedMoe (13 Jan 2009)

Isn't there still a suggestion box there?  Either that or go through your staff at the school and complain.  I have to admit, I never thought much of mess food, but Borden wasn't too bad each time I was there, just very busy at lunch so I used to avoid it.  I used to make a PB&J or get a hard boiled egg and make an egg sandwich at breakfast so I didn't have to go for lunch.

Edit to add:  Isn't your family in Windsor?  If so, you shouldn't be paying for rations and quarters.


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## Michael OLeary (13 Jan 2009)

Is there anyone on the forums who is staff at Borden that can confirm the complaint process.  It may be that any complaints collected by the kitchen staff themselves (contractors?) aren't being reviewed by the contract management team.


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## TCBF (13 Jan 2009)

- On every base in the CF, there are unit and base duty staff whose functions include taking their meals in the Junior Ranks dining facility. This includes Regimental, School and Base Duty Officers, Duty Warrant Officers and Duty NCOs. Those staff are often tasked with gathering comments from the diners.  If you find a menu item lacking, bring the menu item to the duty staff (often sitting with the ones checking meal cards). 

- You can approach the kitchen staff at the steam line and request to speak with the Shift NCO i/c.  Speak clearly and politely, with forethought.

- You can also bring up your concerns to your chain of command.

- My mess hall dining experience ranges from the 1970s to last year.  Our CF military cooks have always been, in my opinion, second to none.  If there were quality control issues at a CF kitchen, all of the CF cooks that I have met in the last few decades would bend over backwards to fix the problem.


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## geo (13 Jan 2009)

Ummm... isn't the CF school of cookery at Borden ???

I know that my visits to the kitchens in most bases has been very positive.   Mind you, my last visit to Borden goes back to the early 80s


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## aesop081 (13 Jan 2009)

Food is bad in Borden........well i hate to tell ya but it doesnt get much better elsewhere. Winnipeg and Greenwood have reached their own unseen levels of crapiness for instance.


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## Pea (13 Jan 2009)

I have to second the original posters opinion of the healthy food being few & far between. Many a day my course would arrive for lunch and the salads, vegetables & fruits would be completely picked over with barely anything left. The hot meal "healthy" options were generally gone by then as well. And we usually ate about 1 hour into the lunch service. Same goes for milk and yogurt in the morning. Meanwhile there is always tons of bacon to go around. I know myself and many course mates filled out the comment/suggestion cards during both our stays in Borden. I also spoke with the Duty NCO on one or two occasions. When I left Borden recently I was paying $477 a month to eat there, which to me is pretty steep when half the time there wasn't much to eat other than very greasy options. So then a person has to buy their own food and pay even more money out of pocket. It's frustrating to say the least.


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## 1feral1 (13 Jan 2009)

Our messes all have a register in which you can write comments both good and bad. This book is addressed by the Catering WO daily, and any shortcomings are taken seriously. 

The food for the ORs here is not that bad. As DO on many occasions, this meant sampling a meal in the ORs Mess.

Current ADF cost Gallipoli Bks Mess/DFAC is $3.64 for brekky, and $4.65 for both lunch and dinner. Thats for as many times as you want., but no food is to leave the Mess.

I am sorry to hear that such a facility as Borden is has such a negative feel regarding food.

Napoleon said an Army marches on its stomach.

Our Messes have steak and potatoes every night, all with veggies of course.


Regards,

OWDU


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## Armymedic (13 Jan 2009)

Havic said:
			
		

> The mess in Borden is terrible


I think you need to get more specific as to which mess you are discussing.

I eat at a mess in Borden...and the food there has been anything but terrible. Occasionally, they run out of the favorite (ie steak on steak night), but the food is always hot and flavorful.

The largest problem, IMHO, is not that they do not prepare the food well, but the sheer number of diners (esp in the T lines) who eat there. Quantity always trumps quality when it comes to mess food.

edit to add - casual diners pay $10 per meal for breakfast and lunch at the mess I eat at.


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## Pea (13 Jan 2009)

I ate at both student messes in Borden during my stay there. However the one I am talking about is the T line mess where the BMQ students & purple trade students eat. (Not the mess CFSATE & PRETC eat at)


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## geo (13 Jan 2009)

For the most part, I like the kitchens in St Jean, Longue Pointe & Valcatraz...


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## canadian_moose (13 Jan 2009)

I found all the messes I've been to have had good food and good service including Borden. I still don't understand how they can charge $477 a month for it, the most I spend a month is $250.


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## PMedMoe (13 Jan 2009)

Well, I have been to bad messes and I do agree that the amount charged for rations is too high, particularly when you are not supposed to take food out of the mess.

Some messes bring this to mind:


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## aesop081 (13 Jan 2009)

canadian_moose said:
			
		

> I still don't understand how they can charge $477 a month for it, the most I spend a month is $250.



But you are also not paying for someone to cook it for you, someone to do the dishes, wipe the tables, etc, etc,etc...


Well, you could have a wife...guess that would make it more expensive than $477 a month


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## Greymatters (13 Jan 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Well, you could have a wife...guess that would make it more expensive than $477 a month



Really, some of you guys need a calculator, it might help with figuring things out - 3 meals a day for 30 days into $477 makes for an average price of $5.30 per meal.  Considering the mess hall is essentially an 'all you can eat and drink' style dining facility, that's pretty cheap.  Yes, you can do it cheaper at home, but guess what, you're not at home, you live on base during courses for a reason, so make the best of it.  

If you have complaints about the food, you cant just submit a whine, provide concrete examples of poor food.  If foods are too 'greasy', ask for the same meats and veggies without the sauces as an alternative.  If you have specific nutritional requirements for health reasons, justify them and submit them up the chain of command.  If food is always running short, find out if it is due to lack of proper numbers or if too many visitors are coming in unannounced.  If you arent getting your portion of food because your course is always late, talk to your course staff to help meet timings!    

There's always a reason for these things, but poorly worded complaints will not get you action.    If this continues on a regular basis, you can go up your chain and have your supervising NCOs and officers supporting you, but you better have good examples and documented history to back you up!


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## 1feral1 (13 Jan 2009)

canadian_moose said:
			
		

> I found all the messes I've been to have had good food and good service including Borden. I still don't understand how they can charge $477 a month for it, the most I spend a month is $250.



Thats why here there is PAYG Pay As You Go, so one does not get ripped off.


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## blacktriangle (13 Jan 2009)

I've only eaten at about 5 different messes in the CF and while I don't think it's terrible I find that to stay healthy I often eat the cereals, bagels, juices, sandwiches etc and fruit. All stuff I could make in a small kitchen for under 300 bucks a month. I know it's not a bad deal overall, but I do notice some pers mismanagement in certain places with the civvy staff. Many of them seem to get paid to do little more then push in chairs and wipe tables... 

If nothing else it's good motivation to move out of the shacks for people. I bet alot of people that complain would actually fare worse on their own because they are too lazy to eat properly.


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## Pea (13 Jan 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Really, some of you guys need a calculator, it might help with figuring things out - 3 meals a day for 30 days into $477 makes for an average price of $5.30 per meal.  Considering the mess hall is essentially an 'all you can eat and drink' style dining facility, that's pretty cheap.



At $5.30 a meal it does sounds pretty cheap when you break it down like that. However when a person goes home on leave each weekend they now have to pay for 8 days of meals a month double. Also, I don't know about you but I cannot do PT on a full stomach, so that means no breakfast before PT. Well by the time PT is over breakfast is closed. So I keep granola bars and such for myself to eat after that. So for me I'm getting 2 meals a day X approx 5 days a week for $477. Not to mention that you are not allowed to take food out of the mess hall, so if I want snacks during the day I have to pay extra out of pocked for that. (Any health educator I've ever known has said I should eat 5 small meals a day to stay healthy & fit) So that means I'm buying a fair amount of food on top of the flat rate I am paying for the mess hall. 

I'm not here to whine & complain, I understand that while on course you can't cook your own food so there is a neccesity to eat in the mess and that it does cost money to staff & run it. I just wish there was a better option. (IE: Pay as you go. Pay per meal you swipe your card for)

Although I suppose this isn't a huge concern to me anymore as I am now out of the training system and living in my own home, so the "food bill" is down to more than half of what I was paying.


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## Havic (13 Jan 2009)

Thanks for all the great posts and ideas, the mess that I am concerned with is the mess for CFSATE, and the sheer number of people attending the mess is overwhelming, I feel mabye they are short staff during peek times. I will put comments in a speak with the NCM's on duty and my staff to see what can be done. But I am sure I am not the first to complain about this issue.


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## Old Sweat (13 Jan 2009)

I am going to jump in here from the perspective of a senior officer (though long retired) reviewing the messing situation. Any assessment would indicate that we were running a very successful program of providing healthy food to the troops. The good stuff was being consumed quickly and the fat pills were being largely discarded. However enough of the latter was being eaten to suggest that there was a market for it. There are no indications that our analysis might be incorrect.

Gang, we senior folks ain't out to poison you or feed you crap. Submit a constructive suggestion or observation and the system will react. It may take time, but you have already realized that the CF takes time to do anything that requires spending public funds.


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## Greymatters (14 Jan 2009)

MediPea said:
			
		

> At $5.30 a meal it does sounds pretty cheap when you break it down like that. However when a person goes home on leave each weekend they now have to pay for 8 days of meals a month double.



1) This however is a personal choice.  Going home on the weekend is a privelage not an entitlement.  
2) I will admit though that it is a valid point for student convenience, but you must have learned by now that the military as an organization is not designed for personal convenience.  
3) You should also be aware that while it is possible to convert to a 'Pay As You Go system', it actually costs more than you would think to implement, track and monitor a PYAG system, thus increasing the cost per meal you would be paying.  So far there is not enough support, nor cheap enough technology, to justify the extra expense.



			
				MediPea said:
			
		

> Also, I don't know about you but I cannot do PT on a full stomach, so that means no breakfast before PT. Well by the time PT is over breakfast is closed. So I keep granola bars and such for myself to eat after that. So for me I'm getting 2 meals a day X approx 5 days a week for $477.



4) I sympathize with you on this one as I hate doing PT on a full stomach AND I hate eating large meals right after doing a good PT workout.   Instead I would eithr eat first thing and did PT late at night, or did PT first thing and ate as late as I could before mess hours closed.  Unfortunately, this again is a personal preference and really cant be used as a basis for change as there are just as many people who arent bothered by these issues. 
5) Sometimes we are lucky and work at places with mess halls where there are no set meal hours, and these issues tend to go away.  Otherwise, yes, keep stocking up on granola bars. 



			
				MediPea said:
			
		

> Not to mention that you are not allowed to take food out of the mess hall, so if I want snacks during the day I have to pay extra out of pocked for that.



6) Hmmm, not intended to rouse a future career of insurrection and rebellion, but you will find that this rule is not enforced around the world as strictly as it is at training bases.  
7) To be more practical - there should be no problem with putting an apple or orange in your pocket for later consumption.  However, if you are on a basic entry course, then I would suggest you not do this.  
8) For the future, be aware that not all mess hall staff are so anal retentive on this rule.  Most mess halls are more relaxed about this and recognize that growing boys and girls need a little extra bite after they've been working hard all day.  So that means you might not get your money's worth during basic, but it will work out in the future. 
9) However, to cover your butt, it should not be a problem to talk to a mess hall NCO and ask their permission so you can wrap up a sandwich for eating after you physical training later that day.  Ive done it myself in the past, although i will admit it wasnt always successful.   



			
				MediPea said:
			
		

> Any health educator I've ever known has said I should eat 5 small meals a day to stay healthy & fit) So that means I'm buying a fair amount of food on top of the flat rate I am paying for the mess hall.



10) Hmmm, again I have to say this is a personal choice.  After decades of experience, the CF has dictated that you only need three  meals to sustain a healthy body, regardless of what health educators say.  My god, are deliberately flouting the wisdom and expertise of this country's military leaders !!!???  
11) More seriously, the military is training you and expecting you to adapt to the military lifestyle.  If you choose to eat smaller meals more often as part of personal fitness concerns, it will only cause you difficulties for the rest of your career, regardless of cost.  i.e. you may later get your money that will allow you to afford five meals per day on your own budget, but you're not  going to be given time to eat five times a day!  You'll get three eating breaks just like the rest of us neanderthals... (_I can easily imagine some RSM on an overseas deployment foaming at the mouth while you explain the need for inserting two extra meal timings into the work schedule, hahaha_)


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## geo (14 Jan 2009)

Thought it was available across the country but, within the Montreal, St Jean and Valcatraz region, we do have a pay as you go ration card system.... electric scale. cash register, swipe cards ....


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## Towards_the_gap (14 Jan 2009)

Every time I hear a complaint about CF messhalls, I quickly point out that before anyone bashes our messes, wait until you have tried other nations messing.

And I say this as a former British soldier, we are not called 'poopeaters' for nothing.

For those who wish for a PAYG system, be VERY careful what you wish for. The idea was always talked about in the British Army, and last year they implemented it. Read here to find out how people like it:

Pay As You Dine

RAF Views on PAYD


In my experience, Canadian messhalls have always had a tremendous range of healthy options, great salad bars, wide variety of fresh fruit/juices, and food cooked to an excellent standard by military chefs.


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## kratz (14 Jan 2009)

In other messes like Atlantic Galley in Halifax and the JR Mess in Shearwater they have a PAYG system.

In the mid-90s, the messes in Borden had a pay for each item consumed. Students were issued a card with a dollar value attached to each meal and the total value was for the day. This amount had no cash value, and members soon noticed it was a use it or lose it concept. Under this system students were able to take food out of the mess for later consumption. Even under this system there were problems with meal quality and the availability of certain foods. One complaint was the daily dollar amount was insufficient to properly feed some members.

So over time, there have been similar problems and they have attempted other solutions. As others have mentioned, when feeding large groups of people quality tends to suffer for quantity. The suggested actions are the best means of keeping those correctable areas in the forfront and are the best way to see steady food service.


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## aussiechangover (14 Jan 2009)

i have been lucky enough to experience a few countries messing arrangments such as the U.S, Australia, Indonesia and here in Canada. Believe me although sometimes the meals aren't of a outstanding quality and you may spend some time in a line to eat it could be worse. i've had to drink milk out of a bag full of ice with a straw in Indonesia (then shortly after puke it up as the milk was off). eat off prison trays in a U.S mess hall well they looked like that anyway and pay over $10 for the privilage and the portions were tiny. but to top it all off eat what was so called chicken nuggets for breakfast only to discover that the cooks had breadcrumbed brains in an Aussie navy mess and while at sea eat a meat pie that was burnt on the outside and still frozen on the inside.


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## Towards_the_gap (14 Jan 2009)

aussiechangover said:
			
		

> eat a meat pie that was burnt on the outside and still frozen on the inside.




Wow, you just brought back memories of British lunch bags, AKA Horrorbags, and the obligatory cornish pasty/sausage roll. First bite 9 times out of 10 would guarantee you a mouthful of frozen pasty filling/sausage meat. What I never understood was where they got the contents of the bag (crisps, pop). Apart from Twix/Snickers bars, I never, EVER saw any brands in horror bags that were readily available on civvy street. They were either filling them with surplus war stock crisps from a long-gone-under company, or this company making said low value crisps was surviving only on a contract to provide lunch bag fillings for british soldiers. 

Great diet program mind you.


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## Pea (14 Jan 2009)

Thanks Greymatters for the very constructive & healthy discussion.  

I can assure you that after just shy of 2 years in the training system I have very much adapted to the "military way of life", and you'd never see me asking for extra meal time on a tasking or deployment. Obviously a person makes due when they are on exercise or course, but when I'm on my own I stick to my personal health/fitness plans that help keep me as an individual from being overweight and useless to the CF. I signed up knowing that the CF's needs will always come first, and I fully accept that and work within its limits. (I just shove apples and granola in my backback for quick consumption on whatever little breaks I get throughout the day. Smokers don't go without all day, so neither do I. haha) However, I will always recommend change that myself or other comrades think could improve the whole experience for all. 

Thanks for the thoughts on the pay as you go system for those of you that have experience with it. I haven't seen it used anywhere so I had no info on it. Thankfully I should be done with mess halls for at least a few months. (until they decide to send me away again..   )


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## geo (14 Jan 2009)

TTG... the Crisp Mfg is probably still around and doing very well for itself... they just don't want to have their name associated with things that were probably "culled" as rejects from their production line.

English mess tents ?  Yeah - remember those & not too fondly - deep fried everything 
Was attached to a Para Engineer sqn many years ago - while they were training in Valcartier.
I knew there was a problem with "their" mess tent when people were falling over themselves - trying to find excuses to dine in the Base kitchen VS dealing with their own cooks.


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## TCBF (14 Jan 2009)

- Amazing how many NATO countries somehow ended up rolling into a Canadian camp in the Balkans just before mealtime.  Co-incidence, you ask?

- In 4CMBG, some of our guys found rations at a PzAufKlBn Kaserne to be a bit sparse and spent a lot of money on schnitzel or wurst at the Mannshaftsheim.


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## 1feral1 (15 Jan 2009)

WRT Messing, PAYG or the Full Monty.

Two choices, those want want full rats pay this with their room/board fees, and those that feel they won't be present for 3-square-a-day, use the PAYG, say perhaps dinner a few nights a week, with other meals prepared in their common areas or outside the wire.

I find nothing wrong with this, and the blokes that are the 'living-innies' don't complain about being ripped off if that had to pay the full amount. Everyone seems to be content.

'Might go for tea tonight mate' 4 bucks for all you can eat. Cheap feed.


Cheers,

Wes


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## Greymatters (15 Jan 2009)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Amazing how many NATO countries somehow ended up rolling into a Canadian camp in the Balkans just before mealtime.



...and also noteable how many of them left with their pockets stuffed full of food.  Many members from other countries were also mind-boggled by the concept of a mess hall being open 24 hours a day.


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## geo (15 Jan 2009)

mind you, there is a difference between rations on operations VS rations on garrison.

Hmmm.... while I'm at it, thought I heard / read about canadian field kitchens in the FOBs VS the kitchens run by others in Kandahar.
Surf & turn in the FOBs VS sawdust (jk) at KAF


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## 1feral1 (15 Jan 2009)

I found the DFAC is theatre were not too bad, I actully had a addiction th the fale mash, but with real butter. I ate any many during my time in Iraq. when on patrols we used MREs, of which I rated them poorly shy of the heat bag thing.

Anyways, the DFACs had two lines, short order, and proper meals. I had my share of cheeseburgers and KFC facimile chicken strips, freedom fries etc, hell, even hot dogs!!! All this at first but later settled for the hams, turkey, and veggies with mash of course, and washed down with orange Gatorade. One could live with DFAC. Bread, great desserts, and Baskin Robbins ice cream. We ate there not ever day because we had our own cooks, and now our food, well one NEVER went back for seconds - EVER. 

The DFACs were all contracted with TPNs employed. KBR as usual had the world by the balls.

Regards,

Wes


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## onlythelonely (9 Mar 2009)

I am wondering if anyone knows if A247 is a males only shack or if females are permitted ?


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## ballz (10 Mar 2009)

This topic is 4 years old but I figured I would bring it back up rather than starting a new one.

I'm basically asking the same question but I'm looking for a less-expired answer.

I'm an Ocdt and should be posted in a few years, requesting RCR (I heard you can be pretty sure of the Regiment you get, just not the battalion). I plan on living in the shacks for as long as I can stand it to save money for a down-payment on a house and other luxeries.

Was wondering the costs of barracks and meal plans and the like. I've read that $150/mth is the more expensive rate for the shacks, which seems cheaper than I was expecting. Can't find much on meal plans at the mess hall except for what was posted in here.

Basically I'm trying to figure out realistic expectations for my financial future in the next 3-8 years.


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## Nfld Sapper (10 Mar 2009)

Last I heard rations where close to $400 a month (this was for Gagetown)


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## Nauticus (10 Mar 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> This topic is 4 years old but I figured I would bring it back up rather than starting a new one.
> 
> I'm basically asking the same question but I'm looking for a less-expired answer.
> 
> ...


Really? I want clarification on that, as well. That sounds surprisingly inexpensive.

Going $500/mo to cover rations and quarters is very cheap.


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## ballz (10 Mar 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Last I heard rations where close to $400 a month (this was for Gagetown)



And the definition of "rations" would be the same idea as the meal card I was given for my stay at Trenton (for aircrew selection) where I got 3 buffet-style meals a day? If it's not that far off from that I don't need specifics, like I said I'm just trying to get a guestimate.

Nauticus: sounds like a steal for trying to save money eh?


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## AmmoTech90 (10 Mar 2009)

Shacks themselves are co-ed, the individual mods would be unisex.


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## armyvern (10 Mar 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Last I heard rations where close to $400 a month (this was for Gagetown)



$562.00 here shortly - they are all being re-linked.

If one is in single's quarters here ... one will pay rations as well.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Mar 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> This topic is 4 years old but I figured I would bring it back up rather than starting a new one.
> 
> I'm basically asking the same question but I'm looking for a less-expired answer.
> 
> ...



Sorry I can't make hyperlinks from work.

Deductions For Quarters are located here:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/sq_table_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=7

QR & O 28.20 lists more details in 'Table To Article 28.20' [page 7 of the document linked below (from Internet site)].  Deductions are based on 2 factors: (1) the 'rating' of the room you are occupying and (2) your rank.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/doc/chapter-chapitre-028.pdf

Deductions for Rations are here: (the link to D Food Svcs "Ration Charge Rates" isn't working for me on the link below)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/rations_table_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=7

There has been some discussion IIRC as to if linking of rations and SQs is mandatory, and yes it is.  I read it in a regulation before and am looking for it now.  However in some cases/bases, it is not enforced (Warrior Block is one example where you are given the option to link or not, or atleast you were when I was living there which was up until the end of Feb 09).

I'll look for the regulation on linking of R & Q and post it when I find it.

Another point to note, if you are living-in, you are NOT entitled to PLD if you are in a PLDA or TPLDA.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Mar 2009)

OK, the ref for linking of R & Q (that I found) is CFAO 36-14, Para 5 which states:

RATION STRENGTH
5.  Unless authorized by NDHQ/DCBA (Director Compensation and Benefits Administration), all occupants of single quarters shall be taken on ration strength except:

a.   chaplains who due to the nature of their pastoral duties elect not to be taken on ration strength;

b.   members of a ship's company who are granted permission to live out but are allocated a cabin or bunk for operational reasons; and

c.   living-in members of a ship's company who elect not to be taken on ration strength.

Link to CFAO:  (IntraNet/DIN only) 

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/036-14_e.asp

I cross-referenced 'DAOD 5024 - DND Living Accomodations' and CFAO 36-14 is not listed as one of the CFAOs superseded by the DAOD.  

Link to 'DAOD 5024 - DND Living Accomodations' is: (Internet site)

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5024-0-eng.asp


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## PMedMoe (10 Mar 2009)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Shacks themselves are co-ed, the individual mods would be unisex.



Last time I stayed in Mod shacks in Borden, even the Mods were co-ed.  Guess it depends on the course.


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## Sparkplugs (10 Mar 2009)

Just as a Trenton reference, you are forced-linked here, as cfao 36-14 will tell you, and for ncm's, the quarters are 89$ a month until you hit pte3, then they go up to 170$ a month for the males, and 215$ a month for the females.  The rations are $483 a month here.  So as a Pte3, you're looking at $653 for a guy, and $698 for a female.  

Just for anyone following, I never did get de-linked, even with a Dr's note, so I ended up finding someone coming off of IR who was getting a pmq, and we split it.  For reference on that one, rent, utilities, including internet, cable, phone, gas, water, and electricity, it comes to about $900 a month.  Add to that, the money I spend on two of us, about $400 a month, and it costs $650 a month for each of us.  So I save around 40 bucks a month living in a pmq, and I have much more space than my 10x12 cube in the shacks.  Nevermind that I get to cook my own food, which is awesome!


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## PMedMoe (10 Mar 2009)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> Just as a Trenton reference, you are forced-linked here, as cfao 36-14 will tell you, and for ncm's, the quarters are 89$ a month until you hit pte3, then they go up to *170$ a month for the males, and 215$ a month for the females*.



Please tell me there is a difference in the rooms?  For example, males share and females get their own?


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## Sparkplugs (10 Mar 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Please tell me there is a difference in the rooms?  For example, males share and females get their own?



The males are in a different building... well, some of them.  Those who live in the female building (there is a technically-male-only floor, although there are females living on it) pay more, because the room is 2 feet bigger that the ones in the male shacks.

Although, the males get free high speed internet, and the females don't...  I would have given up the 2 feet of space to save 40 bucks a month on internet!

But yeah, they're all single rooms with a sink, just one is 2 feet bigger.


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## PMedMoe (10 Mar 2009)

And that's justification for charging females an extra $45.00 per month??  I'd be moving out on the double!


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## Sparkplugs (10 Mar 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And that's justification for charging females an extra $45.00 per month??  I'd be moving out on the double!



I've been in a pmq since October.  =)  I love it!!


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## combatbuddha (10 Mar 2009)

Shacks in Borden are always an issue, and not a particularly good one.
 It would be nice if the shacks were given back to the schools to control. A147 used to be CFSEME Art Coy, and the shacks just across the street belonged to CFSATE. 
I think Borden was one of those bases that felt the worst of all the cut backs that actually remained open, but now it is feeling the effects of the mid 90's and is in the hurt locker. Almost anyone who has been there recently on course would agree with this.
 They say those course critiques actually work.......doubtful. They haven't rebuilt the South Side Canex yet....


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Mar 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And that's justification for charging females an extra $45.00 per month??  I'd be moving out on the double!



It wouldn't be based on gender, it would be based on the rating of the room.  If Base Accn had it reversed where males/females were quartered, the room charges deducted would be reversed also.


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## kratz (11 Mar 2009)

combatbuddha said:
			
		

> They say those course critiques actually work.......doubtful. They haven't rebuilt the South Side Canex yet....



My 9r had attened a briefing there will be a new Canex built at a new location and the theatre will be upgraded during that construction. With the after hours shuttle around base and the coming changes, I can  not imagin the south side getting rebuilt.


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## PMedMoe (11 Mar 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> It wouldn't be based on gender, it would be based on the rating of the room.  If Base Accn had it reversed where males/females were quartered, the room charges deducted would be reversed also.



Okay, sorry.  Is having an extra two feet of space (and no free internet) justification for charging *anyone* an extra $45.00?


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Mar 2009)

IMO, no (insert smiley face...I can't put icons in to my posts from my work PC).


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## onlythelonely (13 Mar 2009)

Great thanks, do any of you know the hours of the gym and the o and h club throughout the week and on  weekends?


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## kratz (13 Mar 2009)

Google works well.

Athletic Facilities

The Messes


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## PMedMoe (13 Mar 2009)

onlythelonely said:
			
		

> Great thanks, do any of you know the hours of the gym and the o and h club throughout the week and on  weekends?



Was there a need to ask the same question twice?


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## aesop081 (13 Mar 2009)

combatbuddha said:
			
		

> They say those course critiques actually work.......doubtful.



They in fact do work. They work even better when students put down something more thoughtful than "sucked" as comments. If the base controls the accomodations, the problem is not with inefectiveness of the course critiques.


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## Livingthedream_notreally (8 Jun 2009)

Hi, I am RMC Officer Cadet. Today I just received an email stating that my rations are going up from 477 to 493(which was raised from 425 last year, 2008). Can any body explain to me who I should talk to about this? What are the guide lines for making the rates for officer cadets? I understand that this could be a forces-wide initiative, but it is mandatory for us, RMC cadets, to live in Quarters. To put things in perspective, I am getting pay 1413/month. After taxes and pension etc, Ration and Quarters will be consist more than half of my net income. This means I will get about $200 a pay check. My friend who is still doing BMQ, gets easily three times that amount. There are people here that can no longer pay for their car insurance. I just want to know why/how this happened, and what I can do about it. Thank you


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## George Wallace (8 Jun 2009)

Livingthedream_notreally said:
			
		

> Hi, I am RMC Officer Cadet. Today I just received an email stating that my rations are going up from 477 to 493(which was raised from 425 last year, 2008). Can any body explain to me who I should talk to about this? What are the guide lines for making the rates for officer cadets? I understand that this could be a forces-wide initiative, but it is mandatory for us, RMC cadets, to live in Quarters. To put things in perspective, I am getting pay 1413/month. After taxes and pension etc, Ration and Quarters will be consist more than half of my net income. This means I will get about $200 a pay check. My friend who is still doing BMQ, gets easily three times that amount. There are people here that can no longer pay for their car insurance. I just want to know why/how this happened, and what I can do about it. Thank you


Let's see now:

You are going to RMC.
You are getting your University Degree for free.
You are issued clothes to wear, at no expense to you.
You have all your books and materials provided for.
You didn't have to look for a place to stay, even though you still pay for quarters (which you would have to do anywhere else anyway.).
You have three squares a day and like everyone else have to pay for them.
You even get paid to go to University and have guaranteed employment when not in classes.

Do you really need a car?
Do you really need the extra expenses of car insurance?

I am sure many would love to have your problems.

As for your friend on BMQ making more than you; have you bothered to compare his/her expenses?

Have you even thought of what you will make after completing RMC and Trades Trg?







And I am even being nice in this post.


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## Towards_the_gap (8 Jun 2009)

What kind of fuss would you really like to make over $16???


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## aesop081 (8 Jun 2009)

Livingthedream_notreally said:
			
		

> After taxes and pension etc, Ration and Quarters will be consist more than half of my net income.



To put things into even further perspective, that makes you no different than most other CF members. Did you think you were special ?

My groceries also cost more than this time last year.......funny how we have the same problem eh ?

I hear the whaaaaaaaambulance coming.......


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Jun 2009)

Oh cry me a river........


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## SupersonicMax (8 Jun 2009)

Livingthedream, I can sympathise with you, especially since the food sucks (provided it didn't change since 2006) at RMC. 

To the others, I actually saved money when I moved out of the Shacks at RMC, going into a PMQ.  SQs and Rations are ridiculously expensive for the small room and crappy food they get.  To me, it doesn't make any sense to pay more for R&Q than you would living out.


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## George Wallace (8 Jun 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Livingthedream, I can sympathise with you, especially since the food sucks (provided it didn't change since 2006) at RMC.
> 
> To the others, I actually saved money when I moved out of the Shacks at RMC, going into a PMQ.  SQs and Rations are ridiculously expensive for the small room and crappy food they get.  To me, it doesn't make any sense to pay more for R&Q than you would living out.



Max

Living in the PMQ patch is not "Living Out".  Even if rent is relative to other rents in the Kingston area, the accomondations in the PMQs are far better than the dive you may find in town for the same expense.

Back to Rations:

493/30 =   16.43

Where can someone feed themselves three meals on $17 a day?


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## George Wallace (8 Jun 2009)

Living Out:

Rent =
Electricity =
Telephone =
Cable/Satellite =
Heat  =
Weekly food =
Purchase/rent of Fridge, Stove, Washer, Dryer =
Travel (to and from School/employment) Bus, car, etc. =
Entertainment =
Insurance (Car) =
Insurance (home/apartment)=
Misc Expenses (Repairs to Car, repairs to accomondations/renovations; vacation; Sports; Clubs; etc.)


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## SupersonicMax (8 Jun 2009)

GW, I pay around 230$ a month to feed myself and I consider I eat well.  Lots of vegies and fresh meat. If I was on a strict budget, I could probably cut it to 150-180$ a month range.

when I lived in the Qs in Kingston, I paid:
Rent: 25% of my salary, 325$/month
Electricity: 30$ a month on average
Telephone:  35$ a month (I paid the same at RMC)
Cable:  No Cable for me
Heat: Provided with the Rent
Food:  150$ a month 
Travel:  Free.  I biked, ran and walked to work
Entertainment: Whatever I spent.  Wether you're in the shacks or in the Qs, you spend the same.
Insurance (Car):  No car
Insurance Home:  5$ a month
Misc:  Same as in the shacks.  Maintenance was provided by CFHA.

It comes to 510$ a month for EVERYTHING and you are in your own stuff, with a lot more space.  I paid over 600$ at RMC for R&Qs for a 10X8 room and crappy food.


----------



## armyvern (8 Jun 2009)

Wow!! Kingston Qs are going for 325 per month heat included?? 

Somehow ... something seems a wee bit off with your figuring or folks in the Qs in Kingston have it pretty jammy.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (8 Jun 2009)

Yeah I got a friend posted out of Kingston and their Q costs alot more than what max has stated.


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Jun 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Wow!! Kingston Qs are going for 325 per month heat included??



Apartment, maybe?


----------



## SupersonicMax (8 Jun 2009)

CFHA cannot charge you more than 25% of your salary towards a Q, no matter how much the Q normally costs.  It's in the regs.  25% of 1300 is 325$.


----------



## Strike (8 Jun 2009)

Okay, I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Sure RMC cadets essentially get paid to go to school.  Not bad!  But the increases in R&Q and Rec fees (which includes the mess and which RMC cadets probably pay the most out of all the bases) has essentially meant that "take-home" pay for an RMC cadet living in shacks has been the same for at least the past 15+ years.  When I was a cadet I was making less than $250/pay after all the fees.

It's do-able from 1st to 3rd year, but when you're in 4th year you suddenly have a huge amount of expenses to worry about. Mess kit (cheaper to get in 4th year than later on in one's career because of discounts) is required for officers within a year after their commissioning.  Frames for degree, commissioning and engineering can run several hundred dollars.  Many of the certificates are odd sizes so they have to be special ordered.  Then grad, depending how big your family is, can also rack up the cost.  Hotels, meals, transportation, etc.

Yes, these things aren't really must haves, but remember that these people spend 4 years taking it every which way just to get a degree and commission.  Grad is a big event and you want to make sure all those who want to come can come.  That gets expensive.  I had 11 people come to my grad.  There was no way my parents were going to pay for grad ball tickets.  I also had an aunt and two cousins who had money issues so I paid for them as well as my two brothers.  At $100/ticket you can do the math.  The only thing that saved my a$$ was that they all shoved themselves in my parents' tiny house!   ;D

The only way I could have paid for grad (thankfully I had a credit line) would have been to abstain from buying anything, including a Timmies coffee, for 6 months.


----------



## Larkvall (8 Jun 2009)

I went to a civvie university back in the early 90s and I really don't see what the issue is here. I am really shocked that you guys find these costs out of line. I was paying pretty close to the same thing back then. An 8x10 room is small? You guys are actually contributing to your pension while in university?

I am just too shocked.  ???


----------



## SupersonicMax (8 Jun 2009)

The thing is that you cannot take a job on the side to supplement your income.  As a civy, you can do whatever you want, if you're short money.  I would not mind paying the money if the food was actually good.  There is no option for RMC OCdt to get off rations if they do not like them.  

8X10 room is small when that's your living/sleeping/studying space and the only area you have.


----------



## Larkvall (9 Jun 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The thing is that you cannot take a job on the side to supplement your income.  As a civy, you can do whatever you want, if you're short money.  I would not mind paying the money if the food was actually good.  There is no option for RMC OCdt to get off rations if they do not like them.
> 
> 8X10 room is small when that's your living/sleeping/studying space and the only area you have.



Supplement my income? I didn't have an income to supplement! Secondly, if you are in a tough program there is no way you can take a part time job.

I have spent many years in 8x10 rooms or smaller! Why does one need more while going to university and I have been a civillian all my life! How big are rooms on our ships?

I don't want to get into a pissing match on who had it tougher, but for crying out loud RMC grads are going to be leading men and women on the battlefield.

I am still too shocked.  ???


----------



## aesop081 (9 Jun 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> 8X10 room is small when that's your living/sleeping/studying space and the only area you have.



We're all crying, we realy are.

 :


----------



## SupersonicMax (9 Jun 2009)

Larkvall said:
			
		

> Supplement my income? I didn't have an income to supplement! Secondly, if you are in a tough program there is no way you can take a part time job.



I did Mech Eng, which was a demanding program and I would have had some time to get a part time job.



			
				Larkvall said:
			
		

> I have spent many years in 8x10 rooms or smaller! Why does one need more while going to university and I have been a civillian all my life! How big are rooms on our ships?



I forgot to mention that you are 2 in an 8X10 room.  

I'm not a difficult person.  I normally adapt well to pretty much anything that is thrown at me.  I'm not saying that RMC kids should have bigger rooms.  However, you can't argue that living in an actual house is better on a quality of life point of view than living 2 in an 8X10 room.



			
				Larkvall said:
			
		

> I don't want to get into a pissing match on who had it tougher, but for crying out loud RMC grads are going to be leading men and women on the battlefield.



What does the size of the room someone lived in in University has to do with how well they will lead people in a conflict?

CDN Aviator:  I'm not looking for sympathy at all.  I'm not whining, but I sure can understand what they went through and how it could be improved upon.  Ridiculous fees for crappy food and small rooms is one of them along with the 80$ or whatever it is now a month for mess dues.


----------



## armyvern (9 Jun 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> We're all crying, we realy are.
> 
> :



Geez, they cram 4 troops into rooms that large here; beats the hell out of modular.

When I was in Civ U (Mount Allison) that was approx my room size for the roomie and I. If I go back and figure out the costs for my meal plan/tuition/dorm fees ... it runs pretty much the same as RMC - and I wasnt collecting a cheque either. I actually had to go out and work at night (every night ~ well except for the labs that I bothered to show up for) to get any spending money.

The food sucked there too.


----------



## Big Foot (9 Jun 2009)

/rant
I wanted to avoid weighing in on this however... Max, yeah, sure, living in shacks and losing half your paycheque to rations and quarters sucks but as we both know, thats something you're getting into when you sign up to go to RMC. Does the food suck? Sure, but it's a matter of perspective on that on. As the argument has already been made about getting paid to go to school and having all essentials covered vice going to civvy u and having to pay for it all yourself and find time to work in order to survive, I'm not going to beat a dead horse on this one. Consider for a second that some bases have living in policies whereby all new privates on the base are required to live in the shacks for a year. The rooms are small, the food isn't wonderful and its obscenely expensive. I'm also a lot more supportive of dropping that policy before dropping the live in requirement for RMC. RMC is for all intensive purposes a long course with other courses interspersed and as such, there are course elements that exist in daily life such as morning inspections, morning formups, things like that. To suggest that RMC students, with the possible exception of 4th years, shouldn't have to live in those tiny 8x10 rooms with no other personal space is to overlook the desired effect of getting people used to living and working in close quarters with other people for long periods of time. As well, in terms of pay, RMC cadets have zero right to complain about how little they get paid when you look at what their counterparts at say, West Point, make. In short, you don't like only getting $200-300 every two weeks to do whatever you want with since all your other expenses are already covered (including internet I might add)? Time to re-examine why you're there in the first place. RMC cadets have it easy considering the measure of financial security they enjoy. Anyways, I'll get off my soapbox now and return you all to your regularily scheduled thread...
/end rant


----------



## SupersonicMax (9 Jun 2009)

Big Foot said:
			
		

> I wanted to avoid weighing in on this however... Max, yeah, sure, living in shacks and losing half your paycheque to rations and quarters sucks but as we both know, thats something you're getting into when you sign up to go to RMC.



Actually, I was never told thad when I joined, but that's a totally different topic altogether...



			
				Big Foot said:
			
		

> Does the food suck? Sure, but it's a matter of perspective on that on.



When the perspective is generalized to more than the majority of people, it becomes a fact.  



			
				Big Foot said:
			
		

> As the argument has already been made about getting paid to go to school and having all essentials covered vice going to civvy u and having to pay for it all yourself and find time to work in order to survive, I'm not going to beat a dead horse on this one.



What about the ROTP CivyU? They don't have to pay for anything and make at least the same as an RMC ROTP.



			
				Big Foot said:
			
		

> Consider for a second that some bases have living in policies whereby all new privates on the base are required to live in the shacks for a year. The rooms are small, the food isn't wonderful and its obscenely expensive.



I'm not suggesting that RMC kid should be living in the Qs.  All I'm suggesting is that it would cost less to live in a PMQ rather than live in the Shacks, which is absolutely ridiculous, considering the pros/cons of both (yes, one being having more space.  People generally pay MORE to get MORE space and BETTER food, rather than the opposite in the RMC case)  I was just using the PMQ as a comparison base to justify how ridiculous the living expenses at RMC are.



			
				Big Foot said:
			
		

> In short, you don't like only getting $200-300 every two weeks to do whatever you want with since all your other expenses are already covered (including internet I might add)?



Internet was't covered when I was there and it was also quite expensive if my memory serves right.



			
				Big Foot said:
			
		

> Time to re-examine why you're there in the first place. RMC cadets have it easy considering the measure of financial security they enjoy.



While yes, I am in to serve, if it was going to be for free, like most people here I suppose, I wouldn't be here.

Because an Ocdt normally doesn't have much expenses, it doesn't make it right to charge an absolutly ridiculous amount of money on R&Q, just for the sake of it.  As I said, it is cheaper for an RMC OCdt to rent a PMQ and cook his own food than live in the Shacks and eat crap food.  Does it make sense to you??  Because "it's been that way for years" doesn't make it right.  

I think it's time to start the JOPA...


----------



## Strike (9 Jun 2009)

I will jump in again with a few points/rebuttals.

You cannot compare the costs thrust upon privates who must live in shacks to ROTP cadets because, guess what, the basic private makes more and pays less.

The comparison between living in shacks and PMQs is a very valid one that has been discussed and argued several times by many members on this forum.  So why is everyone jumping on the ROTP cadet that gets the lowest pay?  Sure, he's getting a "formal" education, but that's the job that he signed up for.  All those others that have complained in the past are also blessed with a steady job and paycheck.  Why don't you hammer on them too?  Next time someone complains about the lack of facilities in Timbucktu I guess I can tell them to suck it up because they're getting PLD?

As for the whole insurance/car thing, I have to say that this is a luxury and I have no sympathy.  It doesn't fit in Maslow's hierarchy of needs.  Last time I checked, transportation wasn't in there.


----------



## armyvern (9 Jun 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> You cannot compare the costs thrust upon privates who must live in shacks to ROTP cadets because, guess what, the basic private makes more and pays less.



This Officer cadet's shacks are going up to 493 / month ergo the OP.

My Pte is already paying 684 a month here for R&Q (I just asked him); and their's will be going up by that legally allowable 4% increase too.

My Pte pays higher tax rates and he isn't getting a University degree out of the deal either. I guess that "free" University education comes with a cost after all - a voluntary cost. At the end of the day, the Officer is benefitting in the long run.


----------



## SupersonicMax (9 Jun 2009)

Vern, 492$ is, I assume, only rations, since it was 420$ when I was there.  Shacks are an extra 150$ to shack up with someone else.  Pretty close isn't it?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Jun 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> Mess kit (cheaper to get in 4th year than later on in one's career because of discounts) is required for officers within a year after their commissioning.



Just a quick point, its actually 6 months IAW CFP 265, Chap 2 - Policy and Appearance, Section 1 - Dress Policy, Para 57(a):

57. Acquisition 
a. All Regular Force officers are required to be in possession of mess dress No. 2, which shall be procured at individual expense.  Newly-commissioned officers are required to obtain this order of dress not later than six months after commissioning.


Sorry for picking fly-sh*t out of pepper...I had nothing else to occupy my time after PT this morning.


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 Jun 2009)

That Pte in Gagetown is also MOC qualified, and contributing to the effort.  Right now an RMC cadet is a tick on the arse of the training system.  Once he's all qualified up, he'll catch up with that privates pay pretty effin fast, no?


----------



## Strike (9 Jun 2009)

If he's a basic private he may not yet be fully qualified.

As for the comparison, as Max mentioned that price being rations specific.  Add the cost of quarters and then the rec fee and you've got $723.

Noe, that 25 some-odd bucks might not seem like a big deal for us, but we're all getting a little more than 200-250 a paycheck.

And just for the record, there are no extra services at the Yeo Hall mess at RMC like you would see in any other officers' mess.  It's a steam line with salad and sandwich bar and dishes must be returned by the member to the rack.


----------



## dapaterson (9 Jun 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> If he's a basic private he may not yet be fully qualified.
> 
> As for the comparison, as Max mentioned that price being rations specific.  Add the cost of quarters and then the rec fee and you've got $723.
> 
> ...



... and every moment of it is pensionable time, and they are receiving an education that costs the crown 20K per year (or more) at no cost...


Sorry, but I don't cry about the hardships of an RMC student.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 Jun 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> And just for the record, there are no extra services at the Yeo Hall mess at RMC like you would see in any other officers' mess.  It's a steam line with salad and sandwich bar and dishes must be returned by the member to the rack.



Aren't you able to go in between (or after meals) for a snack?  I know when I used to inpect the kitchens, they would always have out coffee, beverages, fruit, baked goods and cereal boxes, etc at all times, including up to 2000 hrs if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 Jun 2009)

Granted, and I'm not really looking for an argument.  However, that Pte is still working at base supply, as an example, so the army is getting some return on it's investment.  From an economic standpoint the guy at RMC contributes nothing for four years, and is thereby an expense.  In those four years that Pte has contributed a huge volume of work.


----------



## Strike (9 Jun 2009)

dapaterson,

The issue is the cost of R&Q of various locations and how people are essentially getting fleeced.  Jamie Oliver can deliver a number of healthy choices at a steam line for 2pounds a head.  Why can't we?

Just because these specific ROTP students decided they didn't want to deal with a mountain of debt doesn't mean they deserve the jab about pensionable time.

If you're going to use that argument then I'm going to use it myself every time someone else complains and you will very quickly see how silly an argument that is.


----------



## Strike (9 Jun 2009)

Hey guys.  I've been trying to find the info in question on the net without any luck.

I do recall seeing a cost chart of ration fees at Valcartier, I think, which was based of rank.  Could anyone get a hold of that?  It would be interesting to compare the cost of rations at RMC to other bases that charge based on rank.

Of course, this will have to be taken with a grain of salt (stop laughing at the pun people!) since many bases still have a full service O'Mess so the costs take these extra services into account.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Jun 2009)

I was just taking a look at the DCBA IntraNet/DWAN site for deductions for SQs...link below.

http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/sq_table_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=7

According to their info, OCdts at RMC pay between $189-$164 depending on the *quality* of the room.  It also says it includes Internet...someone else will have to chime in to confirm that.

As for the increase in rations, I am going to assume the increase will be across the board for ALL people on ration strength across the country.  Link below for rations deductions, but it only takes you to the D Food Svcs site.  I didn't see anything posted there for '09 rates for deductions...

http://hr3.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/rations_table_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=7

Personally, I am not and never have been a fan of making mbr's live in, and then forcing them to pay rations if they are posted somewhere.  If they want to live on the economy, let them.

What I see is the lack of a standard in the CF, where some units/trg establishments force people to live in, and others don't.  Some bases force mbr's to link R & Q, others don't.  Pte Bloggins is forced to pay for Rations while living-in at CFB Edmonton and Cpl Smith isn't while living in at Warrior Block in 12 Wing.


----------



## Larkvall (9 Jun 2009)

This thread is embarassing. 

Are you guys serious or is this a big practical joke?

Do you guys know how much a textbook cost?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Jun 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> Hey guys.  I've been trying to find the info in question on the net without any luck.
> 
> I do recall seeing a cost chart of ration fees at Valcartier, I think, which was based of rank.  Could anyone get a hold of that?  It would be interesting to compare the cost of rations at RMC to other bases that charge based on rank.
> 
> Of course, this will have to be taken with a grain of salt (stop laughing at the pun people!) since many bases still have a full service O'Mess so the costs take these extra services into account.



I found this link on the D Food Svc site, under Updates.

http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dfoodsvcs/Documents/Recov_Rates_Aug2008_e.xls


----------



## Strike (9 Jun 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I found this link on the D Food Svc site, under Updates.
> 
> http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dfoodsvcs/Documents/Recov_Rates_Aug2008_e.xls



Can you cut and paste?  I don't have access to a DWAN computer until Monday.


----------



## Kat Stevens (9 Jun 2009)

Larkvall said:
			
		

> This thread is embarassing.
> 
> Are you guys serious or is this a big practical joke?
> 
> Do you guys know how much a textbook cost?



I believe Her Majesty covers text book fees.


----------



## dapaterson (9 Jun 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> dapaterson,
> 
> The issue is the cost of R&Q of various locations and how people are essentially getting fleeced.  Jamie Oliver can deliver a number of healthy choices at a steam line for 2pounds a head.  Why can't we?



Issues with kitches and quality of food - I think we all agree.  And it's not just an RMC thing.  (Though the officers' mess at RMC does a pretty good job - maybe close it and force the staff to eat the same stuff as the students, and see if quality improves?)



> Just because these specific ROTP students decided they didn't want to deal with a mountain of debt doesn't mean they deserve the jab about pensionable time.
> 
> If you're going to use that argument then I'm going to use it myself every time someone else complains and you will very quickly see how silly an argument that is.



It's a key part of compensation, so it's not just a jab.  If an RMC grad retires as a Maj with 25 years of service, those 4 years in Kingston = 8% of their best five years, now around 90K.  So those four years of school are worth $7200 per year in retirement benefits (to age 65) and about $5400 per year beyond (plus inflation once that kicks in).  

Assuming the member draws a pension at age 42 (enrol at 17, retire 25 years later) and lives to 80, that's 23 years @ $7200 + 15 years at $5400, or $246 600 in additional benefits for those four years (or $61K per year of school)  (Actuaries, stop cringing - I know I haven't inflated or reduced to NPV).

(And re: cut and paste: it's a very large table not formatted well for cut-and-paste)


----------



## Nfld Sapper (9 Jun 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> Can you cut and paste?  I don't have access to a DWAN computer until Monday.



For Kingston, RMC:

Customer Type	Service Type	Daily	Breakfast	Lunch/ Supper	Monthly
Type B	              No Table	10.30	2.06	4.12	
Type B	              Ltd Table	10.30	2.06	4.12	
Type C	              No Table	19.46	3.89	7.78	
Type C	              Ltd Table	24.33	4.87	9.73	
Type 1	              No Table	20.82	4.16	8.33	
Type 1	              Ltd Table	26.03	5.21	10.41	
Type 1	              Full Table	43.72	8.74	17.49	
Type 2	         Aboard Ships	8.73			261.96
Type 2	        Static - No Table	15.91			477.30
Type 2	        Static - Ltd Table	19.89			596.63
Type 3	        Meal Ticket-No Table		4.58	9.16	
Type 3	        Meal Ticket-Ltd Table		5.73	11.45	
Type 3	       Meal Ticket-Full Table		9.62	19.24	
Type 4	              No Table	34.68	6.94	13.87	
Type 4	              Ltd Table	43.35	8.67	17.34	
Type 4	             Full Table	72.83	14.57	29.13	

For Valcartier,

Customer Type	Service Type	Daily	Breakfast	Lunch/ Supper	Monthly
Type B	              No Table	9.80	1.96	3.92	
Type B	              Ltd Table	9.80	1.96	3.92	
Type C	              No Table	18.96	3.79	7.58	
Type C	              Ltd Table	23.70	4.74	9.48	
Type 1	              No Table	20.32	4.06	8.13	
Type 1	              Ltd Table	25.40	5.08	10.16	
Type 1	             Full Table	42.67	8.53	17.07	
Type 2	          Aboard Ships	8.73			261.96
Type 2	        Static - No Table	15.91			477.30
Type 2	       Static - Ltd Table	19.89			596.63
Type 3	        Meal Ticket-No Table		4.47	8.94	
Type 3	Meal Ticket-Ltd Table		5.59	11.18	
Type 3	Meal Ticket-Full Table		9.39	18.78	
Type 4	               No Table	34.13	6.83	13.65	
Type 4	              Ltd Table	42.67	8.53	17.07	
Type 4	             Full Table	71.68	14.34	28.67


----------



## Strike (9 Jun 2009)

dapaterson -- You just made my head explode.   ;D

Remind me to come see you if I have to deal with pension and pay issues.  I suspect any redress that would have your name figured prominently in the document will result in a quick resolution.


----------



## aesop081 (9 Jun 2009)

Larkvall said:
			
		

> Do you guys know how much a textbook cost?



Who cares, its not like they have to pay for them.


----------



## SupersonicMax (9 Jun 2009)

And it's not like we get to keep them.


----------



## dapaterson (9 Jun 2009)

Strike said:
			
		

> dapaterson -- You just made my head explode.   ;D
> 
> Remind me to come see you if I have to deal with pension and pay issues.  I suspect any redress that would have your name figured prominently in the document will result in a quick resolution.



No, you don't want to use my name.  At one pension briefing, someone was asked if he was me.  When he replied "No", he was told "Good.  If you were him, I'd have you thrown out."

The whole kindergarten "plays well with others" thing doesn't figure prominently in my interactions with CF pension policy or implementation staff... at least not any more.


----------



## armyvern (9 Jun 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> And it's not like we get to keep them.



I got to keep mine, but then - I bought them too. Took me a lot of working hours at nights/weekends to afford them.


----------



## blacktriangle (9 Jun 2009)

Off topic, but since everyone is ragging on the ROTP crowd...

Is it not also true that a reservist can sign up to ROTP and get the RegF salary of whatever rank they held while they go to school?

So if a PRes Cpl got accepted, and went to say, UWO, would they not be making over 50k a year to go to school without even having to do anything remotely military for 2/3s of the year?


----------



## observor 69 (9 Jun 2009)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> And it's not like we get to keep them.




I went to RMC as an NCM student, asked what we did for textbooks "Oh just go over to supply and sign them out."   
Going to Queen's U as a student...not so much!   

And I might add at RMC my instructor was a faculty member, at Queen's in third year history it was a Grad student.  :'(


----------



## Larkvall (9 Jun 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Who cares, its not like they have to pay for them.



The point is they have no idea what value they are getting.


----------



## Strike (9 Jun 2009)

Larkvall said:
			
		

> The point is they have no idea what value they are getting.



Okay, if this is going to turn into a pissing contest between ROTP and Civvie U might I suggest you take it to another thread.  This has nothing to do with R&Q.  (And your statement has served quite well in pissing me off since I am an RMC grad.)


----------



## Livingthedream_notreally (9 Jun 2009)

Wow, I did not expect that many replies when I posted my questions. I thought no one would notice this old thread. Thank you for your opinions and comments. I guess my last message might have sounded a little bit like a complaint. I would like to state that I am not here to ask for your respect or sympathy. Respect, I will earn when I get to my unit. Sympathy, I simply don't need because every cadet here(or ex-cadet) understand what it takes to go to RMC(which a Civi U ROTP would never understand). my colleagues and I were faced with an issue. That was why I decided to join this forum and ask:

Can any body explain to me who I can talk to about rations? Does any body know a link that can explain the ration increase? What are the guide lines for making the rates for officer cadets?(ie. the annual budget)

I was hoping to gather enough information in order to present a proposal to the Chain of Command, which can rectify the issue. Thank you

On a side note(to break the tension) Like Mr Strike said,"if this is going to turn into a pissing contest between ROTP and Civvie U might I suggest you take it to another thread." Then, I am sure a lot of RMC Cadets would have love to join this forum and explain the other "benefits" of being at RMC. Probably followed by summary trials like:
Guilty of S. 129 of the NDA: Conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline, in that <the cadet who I should not name> failed to comply with:
QR&O 19.14 - IMPROPER COMMENTS;
QR&O 19.36 - DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION OR OPINION;
QR&O 19.37 - PERMISSION TO COMMUNICATE INFORMATION;
DOAD 2008-2 - ACCOUNTABILITY AND RSPONSABILITY FOR PUBLIC AFFAIRS;
DOAD 2008-6 - INTERNET PUBLISHING; and
CANFORGENS 136-06- GUIDANCE ON BLOGS AND OTHER INTERNET COMMUNICATIONS - CF OPERATIONS AND ACTIVITIES

Sorry about the random copy&paste of a summary trial result. People get charged here a lot and I keep a archive of the emails they send out. 

If you know the answers to my questions, your help would be greatly appreciated. thank you


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Jun 2009)

MISTER  Strike??

I hope you enjoy a good boot to the head.......... >


----------



## chris_log (10 Jun 2009)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Off topic, but since everyone is ragging on the ROTP crowd...
> 
> Is it not also true that a reservist can sign up to ROTP and get the RegF salary of whatever rank they held while they go to school?
> 
> So if a PRes Cpl got accepted, and went to say, UWO, would they not be making over 50k a year to go to school without even having to do anything remotely military for 2/3s of the year?



Yep. Heckuva deal.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (10 Jun 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> Yep. Heckuva deal.



Personal experience?


----------



## chris_log (10 Jun 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Personal experience?



REALLY?

Yes, personal experience. A reservist who transfers into ROTP gets paid the Reg F equivalent of their previous rank. I get Pte (B). I know a couple Cpl's and a MCpl who went the ROTP route and lived it up on $40 000+ a year while going to school.


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## Kat Stevens (10 Jun 2009)

Because you walked in off the street unqualified to find your own arsehole with two hands, a flashlight and a map.  Those guys got to live it up, because they earned it, having already been through the training system once, becoming qualified in a trade, and worked in that trade obviously well enough to be recommended for Rupert School.


----------



## chris_log (10 Jun 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Because you walked in off the street unqualified to find your own arsehole with two hands, a flashlight and a map.  Those guys got to live it up, because they earned it, having already been through the training system once, becoming qualified in a trade, and worked in that trade obviously well enough to be recommended for Rupert School.



Eh?

And you don't get recommended for ROTP, you apply.


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Jun 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> REALLY?
> 
> Yes, personal experience. A reservist who transfers into ROTP gets paid the Reg F equivalent of their previous rank. I get Pte (B). I know a couple Cpl's and a MCpl who went the ROTP route and lived it up on $40 000+ a year while going to school.



Geez, there you go again. I just wanted to know if that's the way you went through university. If you used reserve time and rank for tuition. You're stressing bud.


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## Kat Stevens (10 Jun 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> Eh?
> 
> And you don't get recommended for ROTP, you apply.



Fair enough, point to you.  However, every other commissioning program requires COs approval, don't they?


----------



## chris_log (10 Jun 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Fair enough, point to you.  However, every other commissioning program requires COs approval, don't they?



Yes. But the poster was asking about ROTP. ROTP is a different beast then say the CFR program.


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## Kat Stevens (10 Jun 2009)

Fair enough.  Regardless, those guys are being paid for prior military service, which they earned.  That's the last thing I'm going to say on the topic, so feel free to talk among yourselves.


----------



## armyvern (10 Jun 2009)

Livingthedream_notreally said:
			
		

> Then, I am sure a lot of RMC Cadets would have love to join this forum and explain the other "benefits" of being at RMC. Probably followed by summary trials like:
> Guilty of S. 129 of the NDA: Conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline, in that <the cadet who I should not name> failed to comply with:
> QR&O 19.14 - IMPROPER COMMENTS;
> QR&O 19.36 - DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION OR OPINION;
> ...



Very lovely & selective "copy & paste" of (internet & comms related  ) charges you've archived the emails for and reproduced for us here. (We do provide the link and copy & paste of the CANFORGEN regarding internet postings right here on the site).

Surely, being at RMC, you've also archived some on Insubordination? Drunkenness? AWOA? Do you archive those ones too? 

I just find your choice of ones to "copy & paste" rather selective - almost like they're supposed to be taken as a hint about something you've left unsaid in your post; it could, perhaps, be just me.

Surprise!! We get to enjoy those "charge" benefits out here too!! Yes, I speak from 'hands-on' experience regarding this matter.  8)


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## George Wallace (10 Jun 2009)

Livingthedream_notreally said:
			
		

> Wow, I did not expect that many replies when I posted my questions. I thought no one would notice this old thread. Thank you for your opinions and comments. I guess my last message might have sounded a little bit like a complaint. I would like to state that I am not here to ask for your respect or sympathy. Respect, I will earn when I get to my unit. Sympathy, I simply don't need because every cadet here(or ex-cadet) understand what it takes to go to RMC(which a Civi U ROTP would never understand). my colleagues and I were faced with an issue. That was why I decided to join this forum and ask:
> 
> Can any body explain to me who I can talk to about rations? Does any body know a link that can explain the ration increase? What are the guide lines for making the rates for officer cadets?(ie. the annual budget)
> 
> ...




I guess you never thought of the fact that resurrecting an old thread brings it to the top of the Posting Lists.  Oh well.  I see you will be facing some difficult times in your ignorance of the military, but I am sure with time you may learn, and then maybe not.   As I have posted earlier; have you even taken the time to do a COST COMPARISON (Been doing too many Claims X lately) to see what you would be paying outside of ROTP if you were a civilian and not enjoying the benefits of a DND funded education?  Have you eaten in any Cafeteria style dining facility before?  Do you seriously think the Mess in RMC is that much different from any other CF Mess?  Go up the hill and see if the food in the VIMY Mess is any better and the doors open any longer.

You have (hopefully) read the comments of others who have attended Civilian Universities on their own dime.  I can assure you that your problems are very minor.  You are not going to leave University with a 60K debt, but rather that much in wages.  Your current piddly hardship is frackin minor in the theme of things.  Get over yourself and your whining.  Others in the CF are facing the same increases, and they are in some cases worse off than you.

As for answers; well you are a student in a higher place of learning who should know how to research.  You have shown us your abilities to dig up the Regs on matters to back up your punishments--how about you put your research skills to work to look up the appropriate Pay Scales, Regulations governing Rations and Quarters, etc.  They are all in QR&Os, CFAOs, DOADs, etc.

If you are still unhappy, then please feel free to Release and pay for your own education on your own dime.


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## Towards_the_gap (10 Jun 2009)

Livingthedream_notreally said:
			
		

> Can any body explain to me who I can talk to about rations? Does any body know a link that can explain the ration increase? What are the guide lines for making the rates for officer cadets?(ie. the annual budget)
> 
> I was hoping to gather enough information in order to present a proposal to the Chain of Command, which can rectify the issue. Thank you



Seriously, what on earth do you propose to do?  You do realise that ration increases are not a case of some manager somewhere in the DND padding out his pension fund, but may actually be necessitated due to inflation, and the changing cost of purchasing food from the local economy? And it is simply unfortunate that your wages have not caught up yet.

But trust me, we all are feeling for you. We really are.


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## OldSolduer (10 Jun 2009)

Back in the early 80's, I received incentive pay. It was an increase of $21 per month. R&Q was raised that month by $21. I lost money due to higher taxes. Just a thought.


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## dubyarrr (10 Jun 2009)

Look at the numbers, living in shacks at RMC  $493 for Rations, $196 for Quarters = $689/month R&Q for two cadets 689*2= $1378
Living in PMQ or in Kingston as stated above $325/month PMQ, can get similar rates in town if you share with a couple friends. Food for two is around 250$/month as told by cadets who currently live out of res. 325*2+250= $900

So almost $500 more to live in shacks than out. 

Then, consider quality of life, which is better, a 3 bedroom apartment in PMQ's with another person of your choosing, or an 8X10 with a  room-mate who is assigned? You can also put up whatever posters you want if you live at home, instead of the RMC rule of no more than 3, and no pictures of attractive women. You can have a beer in your fridge, at RMC you can't have a fridge (though the rules keep changing on this) and certainly no beer.

Food quality, the RMC mess is far from delicious, most lunch breaks begin with, "ugh, lunch" and supper is occasionally (once every two weeks maybe) nearly impossible to stomach. To answer the earlier poster, yes, the VIMY mess is MUCH better. I have eaten there a few times and the food quality is better, there are more choices, and the staff are friendly and helpful. The RMC mess staff will not allow you to make certain combinations of options. For example, you can only have gravy on your mashed potatoes if you got the beef, or you can only get the breadstick if you have chili. 

Yes, living "out" you do have to cook. But, you don't have inspections, door standards or other bull to waste your time on.

And to counter another previous poster, no, the mess no longer leaves out any snacks or juice at all outside the regular hours, there was an attempt at a night-time snack last year, but that again cost extra, and was voted down by cadets because in the trial period, we could have got more and better snack food at a grocery store for the extra $/month

Kevin

P.S. I am not trying to say RMC cadets have it hard, or that I'm ungrateful etc... Just pointing out the extreme inequalities between living in shacks and out, and providing more info as per previous posts.


----------



## George Wallace (10 Jun 2009)

I do not consider living in the PMQs as "Living Out".  Depending on the 'Administration' living in the PMQs could be considered the same as troops who live in ESQs, and subject to inspections.  Living in the PMQs also is dependent on availability, as the priority will be for married Service Members.  I consider "Living Out" to be living "on the Economy" (ie. Downtown) and I really doubt anyone will find a decent place to live that would be comparable to what you figure you want to pay.

As for what you have to pay for Rations, this is calculated by the bean counters on the numbers on Ration Strength, and how much must be prepared in advance for each meal.  If there are 400 on Ration Strength then they will prepare meals for 400, whether or not 400 show up to eat.  This has to be done.  They do not have the individual luxuries that persons like SuperSonicMax have in food preparation for a "known quantity of one or two".  Your expenses cover the waste created by members not eating meals that were prepared for them.  There are other reasons for the costs of Rations, but I'll leave that to someone who wants to conduct a long discussion with a Food Services Officer. 

So in the end, I'll leave it as: your complaints are just whining, if you do not look into how the Food Services are administered and understand the reasoning for and scale of costs involved.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Jun 2009)

dubyarrr said:
			
		

> no pictures of attractive women.



Can you put up pictures of unattractive ones?  ;D


----------



## 40below (10 Jun 2009)

dubyarrr said:
			
		

> Food quality, the RMC mess is far from delicious, most lunch breaks begin with, "ugh, lunch" and supper is occasionally (once every two weeks maybe) nearly impossible to stomach. To answer the earlier poster, yes, the VIMY mess is MUCH better. I have eaten there a few times and the food quality is better, there are more choices, and the staff are friendly and helpful. The RMC mess staff will not allow you to make certain combinations of options. For example, you can only have gravy on your mashed potatoes if you got the beef, or you can only get the breadstick if you have chili.



Next you'll be complaining about having to wear the same clothes as everyone else too, or get up early. RMC food is no worse than the swill dished out at Queen's, and way better than what you get at KAF.

For what it's worth, you should eat at the senior staff mess – I've yet to have a bad meal there and the beer is reliably cold and copious.


----------



## dubyarrr (10 Jun 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I do not consider living in the PMQs as "Living Out".  Depending on the 'Administration' living in the PMQs could be considered the same as troops who live in ESQs, and subject to inspections.  Living in the PMQs also is dependent on availability, as the priority will be for married Service Members.  I consider "Living Out" to be living "on the Economy" (ie. Downtown) and I really doubt anyone will find a decent place to live that would be comparable to what you figure you want to pay.


I'm not debating that PMQ's are "living out", the terminology used makes no difference to me. The point I was attempting to make was the discrepancies in both cost and quality of life.  As for prices of living "on the Economy" a fourth year friend of mine splits a three bedroom duplex with a couple friends and pays $300/month rent. That seems comparable to the PMQ's available on base. 

Availability of PMQ's, well, I'm getting married next year and have looked into this. When I contacted base housing there was no shortage of PMQ's. I understand that if every OCdt wanted to move up on base there wouldn't be space, and I'm not saying we should be allowed to, just pointing out the discrepancies.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> As for what you have to pay for Rations, this is calculated by the bean counters on the numbers on Ration Strength, and how much must be prepared in advance for each meal.  If there are 400 on Ration Strength then they will prepare meals for 400, whether or not 400 show up to eat.  This has to be done.  They do not have the individual luxuries that persons like SuperSonicMax have in food preparation for a "known quantity of one or two".  Your expenses cover the waste created by members not eating meals that were prepared for them.  There are other reasons for the costs of Rations, but I'll leave that to someone who wants to conduct a long discussion with a Food Services Officer.



I agree.




			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> So in the end, I'll leave it as: your complaints are just whining, if you do not look into how the Food Services are administered and understand the reasoning for and scale of costs involved.



I believe this was the point of livingthedream's original post, trying to find out how to get this information, who do we go to, ask questions of? How does this compare to other CF messes as far as rations costs go, especially considering that a private with the same time in as me makes 214% of what I do.

As a side note, we have been eating off styrofoam plates and cups with plastic utensils for a month now. Is the money for all that styrofoam coming from our rations $$$?

Kevin


----------



## Nfld Sapper (10 Jun 2009)

dubyarrr said:
			
		

> I'm not debating that PMQ's are "living out", the terminology used makes no difference to me. The point I was attempting to make was the discrepancies in both cost and quality of life.  As for prices of living "on the Economy" a fourth year friend of mine splits a three bedroom duplex with a couple friends and pays $300/month rent. That seems comparable to the PMQ's available on base.
> 
> Availability of PMQ's, well, I'm getting married next year and have looked into this. When I contacted base housing there was no shortage of PMQ's. I understand that if every OCdt wanted to move up on base there wouldn't be space, and I'm not saying we should be allowed to, just pointing out the discrepancies.
> 
> ...



As a side note I would hazard a guess and say that the Q's priorities would go to those actually posted to CFB KINGSTON vs RMC Students.


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## dubyarrr (10 Jun 2009)

40below said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, you should eat at the senior staff mess – I've yet to have a bad meal there and the beer is reliably cold and copious.



I would love to, unfortunately we are not allowed except for mess dinners. From the occasions I have been there, I agree, our staff do live high on the hog.



			
				NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> As a side note I would hazard a guess and say that the Q's priorities would go to those actually posted to CFB KINGSTON vs RMC Students.



I'm sure they do, though the PMQ's are far from full, so that is irrelevant.

Kevin


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## observor 69 (10 Jun 2009)

Jeez dubyarr now I get it, you're jealous of the Queen's students living in the Ghetto.

Go Gaels Go !

http://www.gogaelsgo.com/sports/2008/9/20/CHEER_0920084734.aspx?tab=cheerleading&path=cheer


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## 40below (10 Jun 2009)

dubyarrr said:
			
		

> I believe this was the point of livingthedream's original post, trying to find out how to get this information, who do we go to, ask questions of? How does this compare to other CF messes as far as rations costs go, especially considering that a private with the same time in as me makes 214% of what I do.
> 
> Kevin



Access To Information. Learn it, love it, write the $5 cheque, send it in with your request form for per-capita comparitive mess expenses and let the ATIP co-ordinator do the work. They have 30 days and you don't agree to an extension, although they *will* ask you for one. Don't want your name, cadet number and an RMC return address on it? Pay a friend $5 and have them make the request.

If you're smart you can even look at fulfilled requests DND helpfully lists on their website http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/aip/cr-dc-eng.asp and if someone's already asked the question, the answer is free and pretty much immediate.


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## Towards_the_gap (10 Jun 2009)

dubyarrr said:
			
		

> I believe this was the point of livingthedream's original post, trying to find out how to get this information, who do we go to, ask questions of? How does this compare to other CF messes as far as rations costs go, *especially considering that a private with the same time in as me makes 214% of what I do.*
> 
> As a side note, we have been eating off styrofoam plates and cups with plastic utensils for a month now. Is the money for all that styrofoam coming from our rations $$$?
> 
> Kevin



I am going to assume you mean a private, BMQ/SQ/QL3 qualled, serving in the field army. In which case, bear in mind that this private is liable for deployment, and more importantly, fully employable within a field unit.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Jun 2009)

Livingthedream_notreally said:
			
		

> Wow, I did not expect that many replies when I posted my questions. I thought no one would notice this old thread. Thank you for your opinions and comments. I guess my last message might have sounded a little bit like a complaint. I would like to state that I am not here to ask for your respect or sympathy. Respect, I will earn when I get to my unit. Sympathy, I simply don't need because every cadet here(or ex-cadet) understand what it takes to go to RMC(which a Civi U ROTP would never understand). my colleagues and I were faced with an issue. That was why I decided to join this forum and ask:



Fair enough.  While I am sure there are many challenges to getting thru RMC, you should realize that there are challenges for say, a bunch of Pte's just off BMQ to make it thru the next phase of their trg at their respective Battle Schools.  The folks trying to make it to a CANSOFCOM unit have challenges.  The guys and gals outside the wire in the sandbox have challenges.  My point, if you aren't getting it, is there are lots of folks in various places in the Trg System of the CF, or on Deployed Ops, or just doing their normal jobs every day (like say, a SAR Tech posted to Gander or something) who face REAL hardships.  I ask you to take a minute and think of those who have it worse than you.  



> Can any body explain to me who I can talk to about rations? Does any body know a link that can explain the ration increase? What are the guide lines for making the rates for officer cadets?(ie. the annual budget)



I am not sure if you read all the posts after yours, but I posted links in previous posts to the IntraNet sites for DCBA for rations and quarters deductions, and to the D Food Svcs IntraNet site as well.  Please take a look at them.

Its also been mentioned that if there are increases they are across the board.  They apply to everyone in the CF on Ration Strength.  That also means that *whoever* is paying for all the Pte Smiths and OCdt Bloggins on course who are entitled to free R & Q due to their marital status, etc will ALSO have more $$ out of their budgets to pay for said trg go towards these rate increases.  So can you see this increase is NOT just for RMC types in Kingston??  Its just a reality, as it has been for many many years.



> I was hoping to gather enough information in order to present a proposal to the Chain of Command, which can rectify the issue. Thank you



I don't think you have an inkling of the way things like this work in the CF and think you will waste your time and might even embarass yourself if you present your proposal.  Why don't you focus on whatever it is you are supposed to be doing (and receiving a salary from Joe and Jane Taxpayer to do).



> On a side note(to break the tension) Like Mr Strike said,"if this is going to turn into a pissing contest between ROTP and Civvie U might I suggest you take it to another thread." Then, I am sure a lot of RMC Cadets would have love to join this forum and explain the other "benefits" of being at RMC. Probably followed by summary trials like:
> Guilty of S. 129 of the NDA: Conduct to the prejudice of good order and discipline, in that <the cadet who I should not name> failed to comply with:
> QR&O 19.14 - IMPROPER COMMENTS;
> QR&O 19.36 - DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION OR OPINION;
> ...



Attention to detail is an important skill in the CF, especially for leaders and those trg to become one.  In the CF, there are DAODs (Defence Administrative Orders and Directives), not DOAD.  IntraNet and InterNet links below:

http://admfincs.mil.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/intro_e.asp

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/index-eng.asp



> If you know the answers to my questions, your help would be greatly appreciated. thank you



Hopefully you will find some info on the links already provided.  Good luck with whatever avenue you pursue.

Sometimes, you just gotta decide which battles are worth fighting.  IMO, this one isn't.


----------



## Livingthedream_notreally (14 Jun 2009)

Sorry, I don't have access to DWAN(we only get the accounts when we graduate). I am not sure I know what the "Intranet" is. Is it possible that you copy and paste any information that might pertain to the increase of rations. Thank you.


----------



## blacktriangle (14 Jun 2009)

Well I think the moral of story is join the reserves for 2 years, take your courses, and then do Civvy U...


----------



## observor 69 (14 Jun 2009)

Exactly, sounds to me like he wants to be on the other side of the Rideau river.  :nod:

Modified after first coffee.


----------



## armyvern (14 Jun 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Fair enough.  While I am sure there are many challenges to getting thru RMC, you should realize that there are challenges for say, a bunch of Pte's just off BMQ to make it thru the next phase of their trg at their respective Battle Schools.



Fair enough, but you know ...

(Must be the alcohol) ... some of us NCMs get sent out to civy street for 100K worth of courses (Loader crses??) ; some of us cost that much to get qualified .... none of us incur obligatory service for that.


----------



## George Wallace (14 Jun 2009)

Livingthedream_notreally said:
			
		

> Sorry, I don't have access to DWAN(we only get the accounts when we graduate). I am not sure I know what the "Intranet" is. Is it possible that you copy and paste any information that might pertain to the increase of rations. Thank you.



  Here is what I found by breaking down the second link a little further for you:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/1000/1001-0-eng.asp

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/1000/1001-1-eng.asp

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/3000/3012-1-eng.asp


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## chris_log (14 Jun 2009)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Well I think the moral of story is join the reserves for 2 years, take your courses, and then do Civvy U...



Or just one year and BMQ... 8)


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## silverbirdtank (29 Oct 2009)

Hey fella's,

Just wondering if the forces charges/deducts rent while in training whether it's BMQ or BOQ?

If not then when do you begin paying? As soon as you have been posted or do they give you a window of time to decide where you want to reside?

Thanks guys, gals, hope you are all well.


----------



## MikeL (29 Oct 2009)

I'm not sure about BMQ, but I believe aslong as you are "attached posted" you won't pay Rations an Quarters. But when you are at your posted base you will pay. When I first got into the Reg Force I was posted to CFSCE/CFB Kingston but was attached posted to PRETC in CFB Borden while I waited for my QL3 course and also att posted to CATC Meaford for SQ. While in Borden an Meaford I paid nothing for R&Q, but when I got into Kingston I started paying.  An I continued payiong R&Q when I was posted to a unit an lived in shacks on base.


I'm not a Clerk or an Admin SME, this is just what I noticed during my time in the training system a few years ago


----------



## SeanNewman (31 Oct 2009)

A lot of it depends on whether you're married or not.

If you're not, expect to pay ~$10+/day for rations and ~$100/mo for quarters, depending on the building and how many per room.


----------



## Zoomie (1 Nov 2009)

Expect that you will be paying rent at all times during your career - whether it be for your own PMQ or while you are living in the shacks.  Rent-free living is not the norm.

I paid for R&Q while posted to St-Jean for Basic training and second language training.  If you are attach-posted somewhere on course, you can expect that you will not pay for quarters at your attach-posting, as long as you are paying for quarters elsewhere.

Like the previous poster mentioned - if you are married and have a house somewhere in Canada where your spouse currently reside - you will never pay Rations or Quarters and you will receive separation expense, as long as you live apart.  As soon as you decide to move your spouse with you, then you two will be back living in the same abode and still only be paying for one rental unit.


----------



## silverbirdtank (5 Nov 2009)

I see, well that's not too expensive. I have a home in my current town and probably won't be able to sell it for a couple years. So i'm just hoping to find a decent renter, got a good landlord (my parents) to watch over the place that way I can keep the home as an investment deal until i'm ready to sell, the market comes back up and it's time to renegotiate the mortgage.

So I was just seeing if during training I would be able to budget in considerable savings so that I will have a few mortgage payments lined up in case of emergency and if rent and rations are as stated by petamocto this should be no problem and life will be easy. Except the whole being at military bootcamp part.


----------



## PMedMoe (6 Nov 2009)

If you have a mortgage, you shouldn't have to pay for quarters, but you will still pay for rations.  Make sure you have all your paperwork.


----------



## silverbirdtank (6 Nov 2009)

Are you serious? kickass, i'll talk to my interviewer about that on thursday!


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## NightEcho (20 Nov 2009)

Hello,

I am beginning BMOQ on Jan 11 / 2010 and had a question that I wonder if anyone here knows the answer too.

I did ask this question to one of the clerks at the Vancouver CFRC, but she did not know the answer as I guess it is a unique situation.

Basically, I am currently seperated from my wife, and we have two kids together, ages 3 and 5.

In the seperation, due to financial reasons, I took sole possesion of our house. At this time I cannot sell the house because its value tanked and I owe more than it is worth with no way to cover the difference and I cannot rent it out due to strata bylaws.

My ex (seperated) wife and kids will be living in this house when I am away training, I will be paying the mortgage.

So what I am asking is, will I be able to get the reduction in R&Q that people married with kids paying a mortgage usually get, or am I S.O.L.?

I have made plans to cover my financial obligations regardless, but it would be one less worry during training to have to penny pinch to the max.

Thanks


----------



## jeffb (20 Nov 2009)

I am not a clerk so I can't give you a definitive answer but I can tell you that there was someone who was in a situation very similar to you on my BMOQ (Jan. of this year) and they did not have to pay R&Q.


----------



## George Wallace (20 Nov 2009)

.......And not to be a dickhead or anything, but this has been covered many times before.



........And the clerk who didn't know the answer should be fired.


----------



## NightEcho (20 Nov 2009)

Follow up question then, if I am able to get this, do I bring it up during my enrollment or when I get to St. Jean?


----------



## jeffb (20 Nov 2009)

At your enrollment. I'll warn you that when I went through only a year ago St. Jean basically required me to go through everything all over again.  Make sure you have all your documentation with you even if you think it was sorted out at the recruiting center. Even then, unless things have changed in the last year, you can expect it to take a couple of weeks, or months, to get your pay sorted out.


----------



## mgp (27 Nov 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ........And the clerk who didn't know the answer should be fired.



No they should have brought it to someone higher who can give an answer or search the pubs (though since search engine changed its brutal) and follow up with the member.

If I was fired every time I didn't know an answer considering how many different publications there are for clerks to reference, I wouldn't have lasted a week when I started taking customers as a Pte fresh off my 3's.


----------



## George Wallace (27 Nov 2009)

mgp said:
			
		

> No they should have brought it to someone higher who can give an answer or search the pubs (though since search engine changed its brutal) and follow up with the member.
> 
> If I was fired every time I didn't know an answer considering how many different publications there are for clerks to reference, I wouldn't have lasted a week when I started taking customers as a Pte fresh off my 3's.



This is a very basic question, and if you didn't know it, then yes you, as a clerk, should be taken out back, shot and then pee'd on/or just fired.  Sorry if I struck a nerve, but clerks these days really do not have two clues to rub together.; and I am not talking about young inexperienced Ptes, but PO1 and PO2 types..  The Trade has been greatly deteriorating for the past twenty years.  FRP and Amalgamation have destroyed the Trade, as well as Career Managers who have no clue of what they are doing when they Post a Cpl to a Chief Clerk job, and promote them to MCpl without a PLQ.  The Career Manager is further destroying the credibly of the people in the Trade by these practices.


----------



## mgp (29 Nov 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is a very basic question, and if you didn't know it, then yes you, as a clerk, should be taken out back, shot and then pee'd on/or just fired.  Sorry if I struck a nerve, but clerks these days really do not have two clues to rub together.; and I am not talking about young inexperienced Ptes, but PO1 and PO2 types..  The Trade has been greatly deteriorating for the past twenty years.  FRP and Amalgamation have destroyed the Trade, as well as Career Managers who have no clue of what they are doing when they Post a Cpl to a Chief Clerk job, and promote them to MCpl without a PLQ.  The Career Manager is further destroying the credibly of the people in the Trade by these practices.



Didn't strike a nerve with me, I am eager to learn my job and do strive to do my best.  You obviously have many years of experience and insight on things at this point I do not know much about. I was just saying what I would do if a problem was put forward to me and I didn't know the answer, and through pubs or my superiors I have gotten my answer AND I learn something new.

I'm going to see what info I can dig on the amalgamation of Fin and Admin, I think it's an interesting topic.  My course instructor who was a previous Admin Clerk spoke briefly of how much 'fun' it was when it happened.

Cheers!


----------



## Jammer (29 Nov 2009)

IMHO the CF is not social services. If you cannot sort out your domestic life BEFORE you sign on, don't bother.
There are too many administrative burden trainees/recruits in the pipeline now.
Short answer is NO! You will pay the same as everyone else unless you have extenuating circumstances that have occured AFTER you bagan training and can be sustantiated by documentation.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (29 Nov 2009)

Jammer said:
			
		

> IMHO the CF is not social services. If you cannot sort out your domestic life BEFORE you sign on, don't bother.
> There are too many administrative burden trainees/recruits in the pipeline now.
> Short answer is NO! You will pay the same as everyone else unless you have extenuating circumstances that have occured AFTER you bagan training and can be sustantiated by documentation.



 :

Aside from the CFSCE instructor attitude, do you have a reference that supports your (wrong) opinion on this one?


----------



## NightEcho (29 Nov 2009)

Jammer said:
			
		

> IMHO the CF is not social services. If you cannot sort out your domestic life BEFORE you sign on, don't bother.
> There are too many administrative burden trainees/recruits in the pipeline now.
> Short answer is NO! You will pay the same as everyone else unless you have extenuating circumstances that have occured AFTER you bagan training and can be sustantiated by documentation.



Wow... like I said I have made arrangements to cover my obligations either way. I never did say the CF was a "social service" and I do not need it to be such. I am taking a 50% pay cut for the opportunity to serve my country and before I go I want all my ducks in a row. Simple.


----------



## Jammer (29 Nov 2009)

Eye In the Sky,
As far as I know there is no set policy that can be ref'd. It is my opinion.
It's pretty holier than thou  on your part to tell me what is wrong or right about it. If you can back up what you think rather than shooting from the hip, lets hear it. it might help in the long run.


----------



## PMedMoe (30 Nov 2009)

NightEcho said:
			
		

> I am taking a 50% pay cut for the opportunity to serve my country


It's strictly voluntary, you know.  When you include full medical and dental and the amount of paid leave, I think it often evens out in the end.



			
				NightEcho said:
			
		

> before I go I want all my ducks in a row. Simple.


Good on you, people should be prepared.


----------



## Robodad (30 Nov 2009)

If I got a nickel for every time that situation occurred while I was in the Orderly Room, then I'd have no money at all...

http://admfincs.mil.ca/qr_o/vol3/Ch208_e.asp#208.50

CBI 208.50(2)(c) and CBI 208.505(2) will grant you free R&Q if you are entitled to Separation Expense (which the OP is not).

I was paying for both, a PMQ _and_ an SQ while I was separated....I also had to pay for rations whenever I ate at the mess hall.


----------



## NightEcho (30 Nov 2009)

Robodad said:
			
		

> If I got a nickel for every time that situation occurred while I was in the Orderly Room, then I'd have no money at all...
> 
> http://admfincs.mil.ca/qr_o/vol3/Ch208_e.asp#208.50
> 
> ...



Link doesn't seem to work. 

Also, I thought you paid a monthly fee for rations at BMOQ, not whenever you ate at the mess?


----------



## Robodad (30 Nov 2009)

The link is on DWAN/intranet.

When you're on ration strength, then it's a monthly deduction.  I was only commenting that I did not get free R&Q when I was separated and already paying for housing.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2009)

Robodad,

In your case, I am going to bet you were posted to the geographical location your PMQ and SQ were located at, therefore the situation you found yourself in was not created by the CF.

If the OP has a house & mortgage at location X, and is sent to location Y for training, maintains that home AND dependants in it (he is seperated, not divorced or single so therefore in the eyes of the law, legally married no?), then the mbr should not have to pay for R & Q.

http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/menu/pd/14c-14t/index-eng.asp (Para 7):

and

http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/menu/pd/ir-ji/index-eng.asp#6

f:  Copy of lease: Candidates who are married or living in a common-law relationship and who occupied rented premises or a house before arriving at CFLRS must show proof that they have a lease or a mortgage. You must show proof of phone bills or electricity bills. If you don't have these documents, you'll have to pay for your quarters and rations. 

I was looking for something more definitive at the DCBA Aide Memoire, CBIs etc as I know when I was staff at CFLRS, students who maintained a residence, were married, etc didn't have to pay R, Q or in some cases, either R & Q.  There was a DCBA policy out specifically for OCDts/Recruits in trg, but I can't find my older Bookmarks file where I had it stored a few years ago.


----------



## CountDC (30 Nov 2009)

sorry that all us clerks aren't fully in the loop on everything to George's standard.  Unfortunately our trade (especially since amalgamation of the 3 into RMS) has way too much material for everyone to know everything. That being said, the clerk at the CFRC should have told you (PLQ answer) I don't have that information on hand right now but will find out and get back to you. 

This question is not as simple as it at first seems.

Are the children your dependants?   I am of course assuming that your seperated wife is not.  My wager would be that you got the house for whatever reason and she has custody of the children.  Is it full custody with visitation or is is it shared custody?  makes a difference.  Is it documented ?  you may qualify for free rations as per:

CFAO 36-14
4.     The commanding officer (CO) of a base, unit or ship providing food
services is authorized to draw rations for and provide meals without charge
to:

 r.   a member living-out or residing in MQs with his dependants as defined in QR&O 209.80, who is ordered to occupy single quarters because of military requirements;

dependant child is now defined in CBI 205.15 vice QR&O 209.80 as fols:

“dependent child” means a child or legal ward of an officer or non-commissioned member or an individual adopted legally or in fact by the member who is:
(a) single
(b) in law or in fact in the custody and control of the member;
(c) under 21 years of age, or of any age if prevented from earning a living by reason of mental or physical infirmity; and
(d) dependent upon the member for support


205.015 (2) (Interpretation of a child “in law or in fact in the custody and control of the member”) A child or legal ward of an officer or non-commissioned member:

(a) is “in law or in fact in the custody and control of the member” when a court decree or judgment or separation agreement exists, the terms of which award the custody of the child to the officer or non-commissioned member, or make no provision for the child but the child is actually in the custody of the member, or a court decree or judgment or
separation agreement does not exist, but the child is actually in the custody of the member, and

(b) is not “in law or in fact in the custody and control of the member” when a court decree or judgment or separation agreement exists, the terms of which award the custody of the child to the spouse or common (?? I guess that is suppose to say common law partner??)


----------



## NightEcho (30 Nov 2009)

CountDC said:
			
		

> sorry that all us clerks aren't fully in the loop on everything to George's standard.  Unfortunately our trade (especially since amalgamation of the 3 into RMS) has way too much material for everyone to know everything. That being said, the clerk at the CFRC should have told you (PLQ answer) I don't have that information on hand right now but will find out and get back to you.
> 
> This question is not as simple as it at first seems.
> 
> ...



I have joint custody and guardianship of the children and access ranging form 30%-60% depending on the week in practice, but in the child custody agreement  has me at 30% access. She has primary residence. They are both still considered my Dependants. There is no legal ruling from a judge, this was a mediated written agreement filed with the court.

Thanks to everyone who has offered help on this.


----------



## CountDC (3 Dec 2009)

NightEcho said:
			
		

> I have joint custody and guardianship of the children and access ranging form 30%-60% depending on the week in practice, but in the child custody agreement  has me at 30% access. She has primary residence. They are both still considered my Dependants. There is no legal ruling from a judge, *this was a mediated written agreement filed with the court.*
> 
> Thanks to everyone who has offered help on this.



That would be the seperation agreement they refer to. Make sure a copy goes on your pers file and take a copy with you when you go for training.  That document will play an important part in your and your childrens life until replaced as it is your prove that they are still dependants. You can cover them with the med/dent plan, use LTA to visit, reverse LTA for them to visit and I think qualify for free R&Q (although I am not 100% on the rations) while on course.


----------



## Biohazardxj (4 Dec 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> This is a very basic question, and if you didn't know it, then yes you, as a clerk, should be taken out back, shot and then pee'd on/or just fired.  Sorry if I struck a nerve, but clerks these days really do not have two clues to rub together.; and I am not talking about young inexperienced Ptes, but PO1 and PO2 types..  The Trade has been greatly deteriorating for the past twenty years.  FRP and Amalgamation have destroyed the Trade, as well as Career Managers who have no clue of what they are doing when they Post a Cpl to a Chief Clerk job, and promote them to MCpl without a PLQ.  The Career Manager is further destroying the credibly of the people in the Trade by these practices.



I beg to differ with you on that one George.  It is not a very basic question.  Especially in this case.  The RMS world is very unique in the fact that a clerk could spend  a lot years working in different orderly rooms on the same or different bases and not have to deal with separation expense.  This sort of thing typically dealt with at Base level OR, not a unit OR.  So if Cpl Bloggins has spent his entire career in small unit size ORs he may not even know what a SE claim looks like, and it would be no fault of his own.  It's just the way the trade works.

I will agree with you that the Clerk world has changed drastically since amalgamation, FRP, and the introduction of computers.  Back in the mid 80s when I was a young Admin Clk, we had three pubs that we used to answer all question: CFAO, QR&O, and the 245.  Now we have those three plus the CBIs, CFTDIs, DAODs, and others.  Some of which actually contradict each other.

The biggest problem lies with CFSAL.  QL3 RMS is only 8 to 10 weeks, no where near enough time to teach everything that a new clerk needs to know.  Plus the lesson plans they were using in 2007 were antiquated.  What really worries me is what is going to happen to the trade when guys like me who have 25+ years in retire and all the real expertise is gone.

Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## xtoxicxshockx (23 Feb 2010)

As long as you can prove you make payments on a house somewhere, they will not charge you.  If you own a house, be prepared to show proof of mortgage payments, upto and including your mortgage, they'll also want a bill with your name on it, and it can't be over 90 days old.  You'll still be charged rations, which is the more expensive of the two, around $493.82 a month.  I was married and living in the PMQ's when I joined and I was still charged for the first 3 months, it's standard procedure in St. Jean, even though I had all the paperwork they wanted.  I was then back paid everything around week 7, since I was entitled to free R & Q, but if you have mortgage payments etc, try and set money aside before you leave, I was left in a tight situation being docked both R & Q and having a PMQ payment to make every month including my bills at home until they straightened everything out.


----------



## nomij (25 Apr 2010)

Hello There!
My Fiance is to be posted in July to a Canadian Base for On The Job Training, (EGS Tech).  I'm trying to put together a practical budget for us to reach some financial goals, and I'm not sure of what living costs are actually like after BMQ.

I've looked around at some of the topics and discussions, and I've discovered he can rent/buy off base, or look into PMQ.  What othere options are there?

Can he rent an appartment on base?
Can he rent a room on base?
Are Barracks an option if we're looking to save some $$ until the wedding?

Though I'm sure options vary from base to base, it looks as if the probability will be Trenton or Petawawa based on EGS Tech postings, and if he gets a chance to voice a preference.

Any help is much appreciated!


----------



## PMedMoe (25 Apr 2010)

Barracks - rooms could be single, double, quadruple and the bath is usually shared.  Costs for R&Q (rations & quarters) vary.
PMQ - availability varies from base to base.
Rent off base - he might be able to.  It used to be you had to live in for your first year, but that's probably changed.  It's a good idea to get a lease you can break with 30 days notice.

Since he is going for OJT, this is probably going to be a "restricted" posting, meaning he will not be entitled to a move of furniture and effects.  In that case, it may be better for him to live in barracks.


----------



## nomij (25 Apr 2010)

Thanks so much for the reply!  Except that... I got the acrostics wrong.  He's done Basic, (BMQ), and now graduating from a 6 month set of Classes, though it is OJT in July.  Are barracks then not an option?  (That's his impression).

I better start getting better at my acrostics....  lol!

Thanks again!


----------



## SupersonicMax (25 Apr 2010)

Unless the "Shacks" (Barracks) are full, they are always an option.  It can be an expensive option though.


----------



## George Wallace (26 Apr 2010)

nomij said:
			
		

> Except that... I got the acrostics wrong.  He's done Basic, (BMQ), and now graduating from a 6 month set of Classes, though it is OJT in July.  Are barracks then not an option?  (That's his impression).
> 
> I better start getting better at my acrostics....  lol!



Acrostics?

Puzzling?

Where is he?

Where is he going?

Where is he near?

You have provided a puzzle that no one here has the opportunity to actually answer.  No one here knows where he is or where he may be.  We have so many different rates for barracks, rent, purchase of a house, food, etc. across this land, that all we can do is speculate as to what he may be facing.  Perhaps the best answer is for you to contact him and have him find out the rates for Rations and Quarters, availability of Quarters, Rental prices, Purchase prices, costs of basic foods, costs of gas, cost of vehicles, costs of bus passes, availability of Public Transport to and from his work place, costs of Taxi fares, etc. and then make your decision.


----------



## nomij (30 Apr 2010)

The forum didn't tell me another reply had come!  Thank you gentlemen!

He's in Gagetown.  Rations & Quarters there are $600.  He's going to be requesting Trenton or Petawawa for when he gets posted.  He'll know in about 4 weeks in theory, and he graduates the class portion on June 26.  I  know that a request isn't always where he'll go, but fingers crossed!

So, R&Q varies from base to base?  He asks these things, but doesn't always get real answers.  As a civillion, am I allowed to call a base and ask barrack's availability and rates?  It seemed to be $600 at both Borden and Gagetown, the only two bases he's been on, so I just assumed it was the same everywhere.  The army hasn't been giving him paystubs, and he hasn't seen his T4 for 2009!   I had to call the CRA to get the T4 numbers to file his taxes this week!  It seems so frustrating trying to get information, which is why I'm ever grateful for this forum, and for the help of those here!

I did mention in my original post that we were looking at Trenton or Petawawa as a hopeful posting.  You're right, though.  Without really knowing, I don't suppose I can do as much as I want to.  Though, if someone does know the R&Q rate for those two bases, it would be a start!

Thank you so much again!  Financial planning is very important to me, and we have some pretty serious decisions we need to make in the next week or two.


----------



## Alea (2 May 2010)

Nonji,

I was asking myself the same type of questions... although my process of enrolment is not completed yet... but out of curiosity and to get ready I searched the net... 

Hope this can be of any help to you
http://www.cfha-alfc.forces.gc.ca/hl-el/hl-el-eng.aspx

Good luck,
Alea


----------



## Cpl4Life (14 May 2010)

Good for you for asking, even if you don't land in the places you have researched, the information may well come in handy in the future.  Ignore the jests, there is nothing wrong with being prepared.


----------



## TruckerJeff (14 May 2010)

Here's an advice an old warrant gave me when I "shacked up" with my wife.....buy a house ASAP once you know where if definitive posting will be! Even a mini-home for a start.

If you guys get posted there's money to be made every time you sell a house


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## Eye In The Sky (14 May 2010)

nomij said:
			
		

> The forum didn't tell me another reply had come!  Thank you gentlemen!
> 
> He's in Gagetown.  Rations & Quarters there are $600.  He's going to be requesting Trenton or Petawawa for when he gets posted.  He'll know in about 4 weeks in theory, and he graduates the class portion on June 26.  I  know that a request isn't always where he'll go, but fingers crossed!



Just curious...were you guys living together before he left, is he still paying rent/leasing?  If so, that could change some things re: what he has to pay.

Those are the going rates these days, believe it or not.



> The army hasn't been giving him paystubs, and he hasn't seen his T4 for 2009!   I had to call the CRA to get the T4 numbers to file his taxes this week!  It seems so frustrating trying to get information, which is why I'm ever grateful for this forum, and for the help of those here!



2 things.  His pay statements are accessed thru something called EMAA.  He can ask his supervisors for the link to the website on the work network.  Once he has access to that, he can set it  up so his pay statement is emailed to him (mine go to my Hotmail about a week before pay day).

For his T4 to be delivered to the correct address, he'll need to see the pay office to verify they have a current mailing address, as the address for T4s is based off the address listed in the military pay system, known as CCPS.  Having the correct address everywhere else will still not result in the T4 being sent to the right address.

R & Q rats are set nationally, and rations rates don't very much, and quarters it varies with the type of room you occupy, so until he knows what room he is in, your ballpark figures are good to plan with IMO.

(ie, a single room with a bathroom will cost you more than a single room, with a common bathroom).


----------



## nomij (14 May 2010)

I am so thankful for all the help!  
I'm a bit old school, and am really looking forward to shaking up with him after the wedding    Great advice about the house...  I hadn't thought about it that way!  And what fantastic info on the EMAA!  The info is out there... it's all in who you ask!  Aren't forums great!  I definately feel better prepared for the adventure ahead!
Oh, and the BEST news of all... He's posted to Borden!!!   That's just a couple of hours away!  Life is good  8)


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Mar 2011)

This from MERX:


> .... The work includes, but is not necessarily limited to, the supply of labour, material, supervision and equipment necessary to construct a new three storey training accommodations facility (97 bedrooms) and associated site work .... *The estimated cost for this opportunity is in the order of $11,703,000.00* .... (Tender call) Closing:  2011-05-05 02:00 PM Atlantic Daylight Saving Time ADT ....


Site plan of generally where they might be going attached.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (30 Mar 2011)

Interesting they want to put it in the area where the firehall and the two churches are....


----------



## Wookilar (30 Mar 2011)

Basically, it's going in the trees  ;D.

The new and as yet very fuzzily defined fire hall is _supposed_ to move to the woods behind CFSME's gravel parking lot, with the chapels _possibly_ moving to a new location somewhere up by the CANEX/Soldier's Arena.

That's why they won't let us expand the gravel parking lot  

Wook


----------



## armyvern (30 Mar 2011)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> That's why they won't let us expand the gravel parking lot
> 
> Wook



Are they still talking about re-locating Tech Svcs Br lines from the B lines to the G lines (into new digs) as well? Last I heard, they were considering 'in the woods/field' to the left of the Officers quarters - directly accross the street from CFSME; you know -- co-located with their customers in a megaplex rather than on the far side of the base in 65+ yo buildings.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (30 Mar 2011)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> Basically, it's going in the trees  ;D.
> 
> The new and as yet very fuzzily defined fire hall is _supposed_ to move to the woods behind CFSME's gravel parking lot, with the chapels _possibly_ moving to a new location somewhere up by the CANEX/Soldier's Arena.
> 
> ...





			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Are they still talking about re-locating Tech Svcs Br lines from the B lines to the G lines (into new digs) as well? Last I heard, they were considering 'in the woods/field' to the left of the Officers quarters - directly accross the street from CFSME; you know -- co-located with their customers in a megaplex rather than on the far side of the base in 65+ yo buildings.



Hmm.... that would put it and the firehall in a boggy area.....


----------



## armyvern (30 Mar 2011)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Hmm.... that would put it and the firehall in a boggy area.....



I don't think so. I thought the plan was for the firehall to be behind CFMSE (currently the gravel compound accross the street in the rear of the building -- looking towards range control).

For Tech Svcs, from the main entrance of CFSME, look towards the Officer's Mess in the G lines. Note the road into their lines proper. Immediately to the left along that road ... now an open grassy field with wooded borders (across the street from G2 in the attachment that was uploaded to this site).

No matter where, it is nice to see some movement on infrastructure there ... they were discussing this crap when I was newly posted in there in 2003.


----------



## Wookilar (30 Mar 2011)

The plans I saw had much of the area around the F-lines marked off for "future development."

Like Vern said, the firehall was penciled in directly behind J-10.

Take all this with a grain or two of salt, this was back in Sep '10 when I tried to get a new parking lot and building for Fd Spt Tp/Pl...whenever the heck they end up coming over  :

Wook


----------



## Nfld Sapper (30 Mar 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I don't think so. I thought the plan was for the firehall to be behind CFMSE (currently the gravel compound accross the street in the rear of the building -- looking towards range control).
> 
> For Tech Svcs, from the main entrance of CFSME, look towards the Officer's Mess in the G lines. Note the road into their lines proper. Immediately to the left along that road ... now an open grassy field with wooded borders (across the street from G2 in the attachment that was uploaded to this site).
> 
> No matter where, it is nice to see some movement on infrastructure there ... they were discussing this crap when I was newly posted in there in 2003.



Went through that area this summer with a course and it was boggy down in there...


----------



## George Wallace (30 Mar 2011)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Went through that area this summer with a course and it was boggy down in there...



Before all the construction in 1989 and the building of the Combat Arms School, what is it? J1; we used to take the TQ3s out into the woods between the H Lines (South Parade Sq), next to the old Rappel Tower and the K Lines and have them practice patrollings and stealth in playing "Capture the Flag".  It was all bog too.  When I looked at the foundation they built for J1, it was only three feet high.  I'm no Architect or Engineer, but even I could figure out that that foundation in a bog was not going to support a multi-story cement and brick building.  And people wondered why all the windows and the roof leaked.


----------



## Gunner98 (30 Mar 2011)

I am pretty sure the Building is J7 that houses all of the Schools in Gagetown.


----------



## George Wallace (30 Mar 2011)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure the Building is J7 that houses all of the Schools in Gagetown.



Its been a while.  I left in '89 as the first steelwork was started.  I had a tasking there in 2004, but that was about it; and most of that was out at Clone's Biv Site.


----------



## armyvern (30 Mar 2011)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure the Building is J7 that houses all of the Schools in Gagetown.



J7 it is; it is not shown on the uploaded file, but CFSME is the school located on the diagram just under the "scale".


----------



## vonGarvin (30 Mar 2011)

Yes, J7 houses four of the schools on base: Armour, Artillery, Tactics and Infantry.  The Engineers have their own building as pointed out in Vern's post.

For info, 
G1 = Catholic Church and Chaplains' offices
G2 = Protestant Church
G3 = Firehall.

A 25 metre range used to be in the top half of the "survey area" betwen G3 and G2, alongside the road paralell with it.  Most of the "Survey Area" is wooded.


----------



## dogger1936 (30 Mar 2011)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Went through that area this summer with a course and it was boggy down in there...



As someone else who has taken students on "recce" patrols there  Iconcur. It's boggy like that whole area that was around the old mess hall was.


----------



## medicineman (30 Mar 2011)

What!!??  No more tent city??!!  Heresy I say 

MM


----------



## xo31@711ret (30 Mar 2011)

I've only been gone 5 years & sounds like I wouldn't recognize Gagetown; be quite the difference from when I was first posted to 'The Family' in 95


----------



## Petard (31 Mar 2011)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Hmm.... that would put it and the firehall in a boggy area.....



There are non boggy areas in Gagetown?


----------



## armyvern (31 Mar 2011)

medicineman said:
			
		

> What!!??  No more tent city??!!  Heresy I say
> 
> MM



Yeah right; there's still LFAA(TC) located there ...  >


----------



## medicineman (31 Mar 2011)

It would certainly ease the burden on MSA for bit Vern if they didn't have to sign out/in and clean up all that canvas every year.  But hey, they're rentals anyway, so let them have the low rent housing  :whiteflag:

MM


----------



## Nfld Sapper (31 Mar 2011)

medicineman said:
			
		

> What!!??  No more tent city??!!  Heresy I say
> 
> MM





			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Yeah right; there's still LFAA(TC) located there ...  >




AFAIK CFMSE RETS is the only school having students under canvas at CTC, even the CAP courses get weatherhavens....  :


----------



## medicineman (31 Mar 2011)

How often are they actually in them though  ;D?

MM


----------



## armyvern (1 Apr 2011)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> AFAIK CFMSE RETS is the only school having students under canvas at CTC, even the CAP courses get weatherhavens....  :



My point was, CFSME falls under "CTC" and if the new shacks are for CTC, there is still LFAA(TC) (NOT a part of CTC) who could avail themselves of Gagetown's famous summer block Tent Ciy --- whether they need to or not.   > 

PS: Weatherhavens are also canvas; semi-permanent infrastructure, but still canvas.


----------



## bgray (8 Apr 2012)

I am paying rations and quarters at the moment in St. Jean (I'm doing my BMQ); but will I be paying RnQ's while at Borden? Awesome, thanks. 

Gray


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2012)

Yes.


----------



## MikeL (8 Apr 2012)

As long as you are posted to that base/unit and living in shacks, you will be paying R&Q.  If you are attach posted you will not, so if you get sent some where for BMQ-Land(if you are a Army Supply Tech) you will not pay R&Q during that course as you will be attach posted to another base/unit.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Apr 2012)

Awesome, you're welcome  :bunny:


----------



## Pusser (9 Apr 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> As long as you are posted to that base/unit and living in shacks, you will be paying R&Q.  If you are attach posted you will not, so if you get sent some where for BMQ-Land(if you are a Army Supply Tech) you will not pay R&Q during that course as you will be attach posted to another base/unit.



Are you sure?  Maybe things have change (it's been awhile since I was in a position to be fully up to date on this), but people on attach posting are not automatically entitled to free R&Q.  There are certain requirements (e.g. must be maintaining a residence elsewhere).  Personnel on Temporary Duty (TD), get free R&Q, but not necessarily those who are attach posted within Canada.


----------



## MikeL (9 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Are you sure?  Maybe things have change (it's been awhile since I was in a position to be fully up to date on this), but people on attach posting are not automatically entitled to free R&Q.  There are certain requirements (e.g. must be maintaining a residence elsewhere).  Personnel on Temporary Duty (TD), get free R&Q, but not necessarily those who are attach posted within Canada.



All I can speak from on this is my experience, as I don't know the actual rules on this.   When I was in the training system I was posted to CFB Kingston/CFSCE but attach posted to CFB Borden/PRETC and then sent to CFCATC Meaford for SQ.  I never paid R&Q during the time I was attach posted in Borden or Meaford,  only starting paying when I arrived in Kingston for my QL3.

I'd have to confirm with my MPRR, but I am pretty sure I was attach posted to CFCATC Meaford for SQ and not there on TD.  Unless things have changed, I would assume that would be the same for recruits now who get sent away from Borden for courses like BMQ-Land.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Apr 2012)

The issue of free R & Q on AP was cleared up in the recently released CANFORGEN on domestic benefits/CFTDI IIRC.

- if AP and have dependents and maintain a residence, R & Q at public expense.

- if AP, single/no dependents and maintain a residence, Q at public expense, mbr still pays R.

- if AP, single and livings in SQs at location posted to, mbr will pay Q at location posted to, R will be ceased at location posted to and paid at location AP to.

- TD will only be paid on duty travel days to/from AP.  SE will be paid to mbrs who are seperated from Dependents for duration of AP.

*thats from memory, and without the CANFORGEN sitting in front of me, may not be 100% correct.


----------



## Papaselo (5 Dec 2012)

Quick question, I hope some clerk can answer this or someone in the same situation as me. I just received my CT offer to the regular force, I start in Feb. My question is I'm being transferred to the Regs on Pretzi and awaiting course. Now, I have a house in Toronto co ownership with my father and I, and if I'm not technically posted to Borden therefore I can't sell my house. Is there a possibility that I may get some support with Rations and Quarters as I'm already paying a mortgage in Toronto? Also I can't move my mom or dad because I don't know where I'm going to get posted after course, so no sense in me selling my house and frankly my dad won't want to either if he doesn't know for sure what's going on with my career. Just wanted to know if the CF would either give me IR, TD or R&Q or simply nothing as it's not their concern. Thank you in advance.


----------



## DAA (5 Dec 2012)

This is something that you need to discuss with your CT broker at D Mil C 7........

You may be able to have the Quarters charges waived but that would be up to them and just what they put on your CT Instr.  Unless your supporting your parents and are able to claim them as a "dependant" on your income taxes, the IR thing probably won't go through.

On a side note, if and when you did or do sell the house and "if" the deed is in both yours and your fathers name, you also may only be entitled to half the reimbursement.


----------



## Papaselo (5 Dec 2012)

Ok got it, so don't wait for my COS, just talk to the broker ASAP? Or when I get to the unit I should inform my chain? And maybe they can help me out?


----------



## DAA (5 Dec 2012)

Personally, I would talk to the broker.  At the end of the day, they will be the one who is issuing the transfer instruction and everything is dependant upon what they put down for the move of your HG&E...


----------



## Papaselo (5 Dec 2012)

Ok, will do, I just emailed him. So, hopefully I hear something back tomorrow. Thanks for all the help. I'll wait to see what he says, and if not, once I get to the unit at Borden, I'll try to address it there, at worst I'll have to pay :-(


----------



## MikeL (5 Dec 2012)

Papaselo said:
			
		

> My question is I'm being transferred to the Regs on Pretzi and awaiting course....  and if I'm not technically posted to Borden therefore I can't sell my house.



*PRETC

I assume you are still going MP?  Therefore you would be posted to the MP school/CFB Borden,  from there would be attached to PRETC until your QL3 starts.

Unless things have changed since I was in the training system,  the above should be correct.


----------



## Shamrock (5 Dec 2012)

Papaselo said:
			
		

> Quick question, I hope some clerk can answer this or someone in the same situation as me. I just received my CT offer to the regular force, I start in Feb. My question is I'm being transferred to the Regs on Pretzi and awaiting course. Now, I have a house in Toronto co ownership with my father and I, and if I'm not technically posted to Borden therefore I can't sell my house. Is there a possibility that I may get some support with Rations and Quarters as I'm already paying a mortgage in Toronto? Also I can't move my mom or dad because I don't know where I'm going to get posted after course, so no sense in me selling my house and frankly my dad won't want to either if he doesn't know for sure what's going on with my career. Just wanted to know if the CF would either give me IR, TD or R&Q or simply nothing as it's not their concern. Thank you in advance.



What does your ETP say?  Are you prohibited posted to Borden or have you been posted to your (eventual) gaining det and placed on TD there?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Dec 2012)

Didn't PRETC get canned?


----------



## Papaselo (6 Dec 2012)

Didn't get in for MP as there are no positions at the moment, so, I took my second choice. Yes, I hear that there is no more pretzi, so, I'll be at sifsal or however you spell it or call it. The offer stated that I'll I'm in BTL(Basic training list) and my unit and location posted to CFLTC-Borden. So, whatever you guys/ gals can make of that. Also URS is also Borden, no idea what these things mean just yet. I just asked my broker and he said that since your going on BTL, they shouldn't charge you R&Q until your done your trades course. So, let's hope he is correct. 

If anyone has anything else to add feel free too, as I'm willing to take any advice or suggestions. Thanks once again in advance.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Dec 2012)

You need to work on your slang!!   :nod:

CFSAL (CF School of Admin and Logistics) is now known as the CF Logistics Training Center.

URS = Unit Records Support, IIRC is a common term for Support Base/Home Unit (Borden, in your case).

Anyone entering the CF via CT/OT and is unskilled goes on the BTL establishment until they are MOC quald.  Same thing happens for RegF types who OT.  It just means you are not in an actual position that is counted against your trades Trained Effective Strength, lets say.  So effectively you are what is called a PAT (Personnel Awaiting Training).

Being on BTL in itself doesn't relate to the entitlement to R & Q on Joe and Jane Taxpayer.  Your School Orderly Room should be able to sort that out once you are there.


----------



## Papaselo (6 Dec 2012)

Lol, hahaha. Indeed I do need to work on my slang. See the problem with that is, a lot of my civi friends don't understand it, so I keep it to a minimum :-D  :nod: ;D ;D

So, let's see what happens once I get to Borden on Cfsal. Either they'll say no, or who knows I might get lucky.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Dec 2012)

Papaselo said:
			
		

> Lol, hahaha. Indeed I do need to work on my slang. See the problem with that is, a lot of my civi friends don't understand it, so I keep it to a minimum :-D  :nod: ;D ;D
> 
> So, let's see what happens once I get to Borden on Cfsal CFLTC. Either they'll say no, or who knows I might get lucky.



 :blotto:


----------



## Shamrock (6 Dec 2012)

Papaselo said:
			
		

> I just asked my broker and he said that since your going on BTL, they shouldn't charge you R&Q until your done your trades course. So, let's hope he is correct.
> 
> If anyone has anything else to add feel free too, as I'm willing to take any advice or suggestions. Thanks once again in advance.



Euhhhh... BTL in and of itself doesn't preclude you from paying R&Q, especially not as a single member.


----------



## DAA (6 Dec 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Euhhhh... BTL in and of itself doesn't preclude you from paying R&Q, especially not as a single member.



So true, but in this case, the move of HG&E will no doubt be prohibited.  As such and being a "home owner", there is also no entitlement for reimbursement of Real Estate and Legal Fees, so the best case scenario is that you should receive free quarters, as you are already maintaining a residence elsewhere.

Now let's see if the clerks in Borden can figure this one out!


----------



## Papaselo (6 Dec 2012)

Lol, I'm sure they will figure it out, but, if there anything like the reserve clerks I know, I will be retired by the time they push that paper work up! Hahaha. PS, I'm not saying all the reserve clerks are like that, only the ones I deal with


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Dec 2012)

Papaselo said:
			
		

> Lol, I'm sure they will figure it out, but, if there anything like the reserve clerks I know, I will be retired by the time they push that paper work up! Hahaha. PS, I'm not saying all the reserve clerks are like that, only the ones I deal with



Now don't tar and feather all clerks like that some may fit that category and others might not....


MILNET.CA MENTOR


----------



## Papaselo (7 Dec 2012)

My apologies, once again, it was meant as a joke, as well as I said not all clerks are like that in my last post, only the ones I deal with


----------



## tenspeed (19 Jun 2013)

Hello, thank you for taking the time to read my post.  I'll provide some quick context before I get into my questions:

-Applied to Regular Force in July 2012
-I am at the last stage of recruitment: the job offer! Met Tech, July 8 BMQ offered 2013/06/18.  Have not accepted at time of posting.
-I am married, we are currently renting an apartment.

Naturally I'm very excited at the opportunity to fulfill my application and start my career, but I was going over the details of my training and noticed a serious change in what I had budgeted during that time: I would now be required to pay Rations during BMQ (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106874.0.html and http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/108923.0.html).  The information has been out there for a while (but doesn't seem to have changed), but sources seem to be in various states of update and as a potential recruit alot of what I have found has been over my head.

My ultimate question today is what can I expect to be taking home at the end of the month given my situation during BMQ, SQ and occupational training (6 months at CFS Met, on the job training at Gagetown)?  I understand the question may be a bit out of scope for this forum, but with my big concern in mind I was hoping for some insight on the following questions:

-Is the requirement to pay for rations during BMQ for married members accurate as of 2013/06/19?  Mostly, has there been any change to this policy since its posting (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106874.0.html)?
-What options will I have for meals during occupational training?  I can cook for myself and would even prefer to.
-Am I entitled to a Temporary Duty / Land Duty Allowance / something similar during BMQ and occupational training?
-Are there any other benefits or allowances I would have access to that may help me bear the cost of rations now being imposed on Privates?

I will continue trying to educate myself on these topics today and call the recruitment center / CFLRS / anyone they direct me to.  With my offer looming though I am feeling a bit under the gun and am hoping that someone with more experience on these subjects or even experience dumbing down military policies (http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/doc/205.pdf) can provide me some insight into my questions.  Thanks.

Also, as a first time poster and long time lurker, I would like to thank everyone who participates in these army.ca forums.  The knowledge you provide IS valued and appreciated by many people registered or not.


----------



## MikeL (19 Jun 2013)

tenspeed said:
			
		

> My ultimate question today is what can I expect to be taking home at the end of the month given my situation during BMQ, SQ and occupational training (6 months at CFS Met, on the job training at Gagetown)?



Did you ask the CFRC any of this when they called you about the job offer?  Looked up the CF Pay Scales?

There is no SQ course anymore, it has been changed and renamed too BMQ-Land for quite a few years.  CFS Met? The CFRC told you that you would be doing OJT in CFB Gagetown?



			
				tenspeed said:
			
		

> -What options will I have for meals during occupational training?  I can cook for myself and would even prefer to.
> -Am I entitled to a Temporary Duty / Land Duty Allowance / something similar during BMQ and occupational training?
> -Are there any other benefits or allowances I would have access to that may help me bear the cost of rations now being imposed on Privates?



Call the CFRC when you can, and you can discuss all of your concerns with them.


*If you live in barracks, you will be eating in the mess hall. You won't find a kitchen in the barracks, so you will be unable to do any cooking, certain cooking items are also not allowed in barracks such as hot plates.
*You will only get field pay for the days you are in the field, not through the entire course.
*You will not get TD during BMQ as you are posted to St Jean/CFLRS, then you will be posted to the school in Borden. If you are Attach Posted out somewhere you will get TD, for example posted to Borden but sent away to Wainwright to do BMQ-Land.


----------



## PMedMoe (19 Jun 2013)

tenspeed said:
			
		

> -Is the requirement to pay for rations during BMQ for married members accurate as of 2013/06/19?  Mostly, has there been any change to this policy since its posting (http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106874.0.html)?
> -What options will I have for meals during occupational training?  I can cook for myself and would even prefer to.
> -Am I entitled to a Temporary Duty / Land Duty Allowance / something similar during BMQ and occupational training?
> -Are there any other benefits or allowances I would have access to that may help me bear the cost of rations now being imposed on Privates?



1.  AFAIK, the requirement to pay rations has not changed.
2.  More than likely, you will be occupying quarters with no cooking facilities and required to eat at the mess (and pay rations).
3.  No, because you will be posted to each location (CFLRS, school, etc), TD/LDA is not an entitlement.  You will get casual LDA for your time in the field only.
4.  You _may_ be entitled to PLD, depending on where your primary residence is.  Make sure you bring in proof of your lease, rent, etc.  (I'm not 100% sure on this one).


----------



## Cbbmtt (19 Jun 2013)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/44740/post-390144.html#msg390144


Pay has gone up a bit since then, but you get the general gist of it.


----------



## tenspeed (19 Jun 2013)

Thanks for the replies!



			
				-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Did you ask the CFRC any of this when they called you about the job offer?  Looked up the CF Pay Scales?



Yes, I have researched the pay scales.  I was hoping someone could give more of an estimate of the *net* amount a typical married Private(1) takes home after taxes, benefits, pension... and rations now I guess during training postings in 2013.  I had it worked out for 2012, but the situation is different now.  Local CFRC wasn't terribly helpful on this point today, which is fine, they're not HR.



			
				Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/44740/post-390144.html#msg390144
> 
> 
> Pay has gone up a bit since then, but you get the general gist of it.



Great reference, thank you.  Now I'm just scaling it up to the current rate of pay - cost of rations = boned.



			
				-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> There is no SQ course anymore, it is and has been changed and renamed too BMQ-Land for quite a few years.  CFS Met? The CFRC told you that you would be doing OJT in CFB Gagetown?



I've been calling BMQ-Land "Soldier Qualification" the whole time I've been dealing with the CFRC and nobody has corrected me, haha.  Of course a quick search confirms you are correct.  The Met Tech info still shows "SQ", occupational training at CFS Met and the video indicates there is OJT in Gagetown.  I will be sure to get clarification on current the current training process, thanks for pointing out how out of date my information is.

---

The CFRC and my file manager there were able to confirm the same information volunteered by PMedMoe and Skeletor.  Unless I am living off-base there will likely be no cooking facilities available to me which forces me to buy Rations from the mess.

You were both also correct on the allowances / benefits.  I understand now that TD only applies if the base I am posted to sends me somewhere else.  CFLRS is the base I am posted to for BMQ so it does not apply.

---

I'm sure I'll be the millionth one to gripe about this but I feel the cost of Rations is unreasonable, to say the least.  I don't spend $500 a month to feed my entire family (pets included!).  In my case it may be what makes or breaks this job offer.  May have to consider reapplying to trades with occupational training here in Kingston and hoping for the best.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (19 Jun 2013)

BMQ-Land or SQ still exists for all trades that wear a Green DEU less Infantry......


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 Jun 2013)

If you pay rations after BMQ will depend primarily on "how" you proceed on the next phase of training.  If you are posted (prohibited) until you are going to pay rations.  If you are Attach Posted from CFLRS, as an example, to the CFSMET Winnipeg, then you will likely not pay rations.  That is not something I know or you can control really.

So it is kind of hard to answer with a solid "yes" or "no".  It is more accurately stated "possible but it depends".

If you are married and maintain the residence (i.e. keep the apt...which is likely...) you shouldn't have to pay the quarters $.


----------



## d_edwards (19 Jun 2013)

I don t know if this is still allowed but people have applied to delink rations and pay meals directly.  Depends on base perhaps but this was 13 years ago in esquimalt.   Hedgeing your bets on a career choice based on R and Q charges seems shortsighted to me.


----------



## MikeL (19 Jun 2013)

tenspeed said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies!
> 
> Yes, I have researched the pay scales.  I was hoping someone could give more of an estimate of the *net* amount a typical married Private(1) takes home after taxes, benefits, pension... and rations now I guess during training postings in 2013.  I had it worked out for 2012, but the situation is different now.  Local CFRC wasn't terribly helpful on this point today, which is fine, they're not HR.
> 
> Great reference, thank you.  Now I'm just scaling it up to the current rate of pay - cost of rations = boned.



I think someone posted the net income for a Pte in another thread, I'll see if I can find it. But from what I remember it wasn't too much.

From 2011
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101006.0



			
				tenspeed said:
			
		

> I've been calling BMQ-Land "Soldier Qualification" the whole time I've been dealing with the CFRC and nobody has corrected me, haha.  Of course a quick search confirms you are correct.  The Met Tech info still shows "SQ", occupational training at CFS Met and the video indicates there is OJT in Gagetown.  I will be sure to get clarification on current the current training process, thanks for pointing out how out of date my information is.



Yea, I believe they are still in the process of slowly updating all the trade information pages with the new course name, etc.  Ah, you are going Me*t* Tech, I misread your post and thought you were going Me*d* Tech.  Makes more sense now.  




			
				tenspeed said:
			
		

> I'm sure I'll be the millionth one to gripe about this but I feel the cost of Rations is unreasonable, to say the least.  I don't spend $500 a month to feed my entire family (pets included!).  In my case it may be what makes or breaks this job offer.  May have to consider reapplying to trades with occupational training here in Kingston and hoping for the best.



Not the first, nor will you be the last to not enjoy the high cost of Rations & Quarters.  Just be sure to budget properly,  another person on this forum had issues supporting his family while he was away on BMQ, etc and ended up releasing from the Canadian Forces due to it.

I know ACISS and Comm Research do their occupational training in Kingston, but IMO, I would not pick a trade just because of where the DP1 course is run out of.  You need to think long term with this.



			
				NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> BMQ-Land or SQ still exists for all trades that wear a Green DEU less Infantry......


Plus some RCN and RCAF pers who are in a "Purple Trade" such as MP and Med Tech.

I don't believe Army Musicians do BMQ-Land


----------



## tenspeed (19 Jun 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> From 2011
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/101006.0



Bingo! Thank you so, so much!

$33672 gross annual income = $2806/month, Private(1) x 12 months

-$5050.80 = 15% Federal Tax
-$1666.76 = 4.95% CPP
-$582.53 = 1.73% EI
-$3367.20 = 10% Pension Plan
-$1010.16 = 3% Death Benefit

$21994.55 = Net Annual Income

$1832.88 = Monthly Net Income (21994.55 / 12)

$1282.88 = Monthly Take Home Pay after Rations deducted (1832.88 - 550)

---

Sadly this number is much lower than I expected.  Can someone confirm the Pension Plan contribution amount?  I'm searching http://lois-laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-17/FullText.html with no luck.

I intend to stay with the CF for as long a career as they will have me for, but I may not get the chance to even start in my current situation unless I land a trade with training close to home, I'm wrong with my math or something else changes.  Just the reality of my reality.

---

[edit] Hold on, I think I got it: http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pensions/notices-avis/2012-12-14b-eng.asp

$33672 gross annual income = $2806/month, Private(1) x 12 months

-$5050.80 = 15% Federal Tax
-$1666.76 = 4.95% CPP
-$582.53 = 1.73% EI
-$2188.68 = 6.5% Pension Plan
-$1010.16 = 3% Death Benefit

$23173.07 = Net Annual Income

$1931.09 = Monthly Net Income (23173.07 / 12)

$1381.09 = Monthly Take Home Pay after Rations deducted (1931.09 - 550)


----------



## Tralax (19 Jun 2013)

great info, thanks


----------



## stealthylizard (20 Jun 2013)

The $550 is for max rations too.  They have different plans available, or at least they did in Edmonton (2011).  I have no idea if it has changed or what the costs were.  You could choose from:

3 meals/day for 7 days;
2 meals/day for 7 days;
3 meals/day for 5 days;
2 meals/day for 5 days.

Note:  This is when actually posted to your somewhat temporary-permanent base.


----------



## kevincanada (20 Jun 2013)

$550 a month and you get a a bed, electricity, hot water, meals cooked for you, a roof.  Where do you go wrong with that.  Where I live that will get you a cardboard box in a alley somewhere.  I thought wow, that's cheap when I saw for the first time myself  ;D


Edit: Although I do understand if you have to support a family.  Is it possible if your wife is not working to take a job until you hit higher income brackets?  Or see about moving your family on base after BMQ?


----------



## JorgSlice (20 Jun 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> $550 a month and you get a a bed, electricity, hot water, meals cooked for you, a roof.  Where do you go wrong with that.  Where I live that will get you a cardboard box in a alley somewhere.  I thought wow, that's cheap when I saw for the first time myself  ;D



AND you get a salary and some pretty decent benefits too!


----------



## Cbbmtt (20 Jun 2013)

I thought you didn't have to pay rations if you are married, common law or had shared co-habitation where both are supporting a child?




			
				kevincanada said:
			
		

> $550 a month and you get a a bed, electricity, hot water, meals cooked for you, a roof.  Where do you go wrong with that.  Where I live that will get you a cardboard box in a alley somewhere.  I thought wow, that's cheap when I saw for the first time myself  ;D
> 
> 
> Edit: Although I do understand if you have to support a family.  Is it possible if your wife is not working to take a job until you hit higher income brackets?  Or see about moving your family on base after BMQ?


----------



## 421_434_226 (20 Jun 2013)

I thought that the pension contributions were now 6.85% on the first $51100 per year and 9.2% on anything above that, then again a private would only be concerned with the 6.85%, I believe the rates have changed due to moving to the new 50/50 contribution plan.
1 edit due to a damn international keyboard.


----------



## JorgSlice (20 Jun 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> I thought you didn't have to pay rations if you are married, common law or had shared co-habitation where both are supporting a child?



No, now even if you're married/dependents etc. You're still required to pay R&Q at least for BMQ as far as I know.


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Jun 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> No, now even if you're married/dependents etc. You're still required to pay R&Q at least for BMQ as far as I know.



IIRC, rations only for pers with dependents.


----------



## JorgSlice (20 Jun 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> IIRC, rations only for pers with dependents.



Ah, okay. Thank you.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (20 Jun 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> I thought you didn't have to pay rations if you are married, common law or had shared co-habitation where both are supporting a child?



Paying rations is now dependent on your posting status/type.


----------



## tenspeed (21 Jun 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> $550 a month and you get a a bed, electricity, hot water, meals cooked for you, a roof.  Where do you go wrong with that.  Where I live that will get you a cardboard box in a alley somewhere.  I thought wow, that's cheap when I saw for the first time myself  ;D
> 
> 
> Edit: Although I do understand if you have to support a family.  Is it possible if your wife is not working to take a job until you hit higher income brackets?  Or see about moving your family on base after BMQ?



I agree, $550 rations + ~$120 for quarters is a hell of a deal if that's the only time you're paying for it each month.  I don't know how $550 / month for rations at CFLRS is broken down, but I can tell you for sure: it's not all for one person's food.  So other than food, whatever is driving up the cost of rations are duplicate expenses that families pay at their home for their families and now for themselves while on course.

However, this is the policy.  I'm grateful I was given disclosure and a chance to accept / not accept these charges.

My wife is committed to something else, she will not have much of an income.  Such is life.



			
				Gizmo 421 said:
			
		

> I thought that the pension contributions were now 6.85% on the first $51100 per year and 9.2% on anything above that, then again a private would only be concerned with the 6.85%, I believe the rates have changed due to moving to the new 50/50 contribution plan.
> 1 edit due to a damn international keyboard.



You're correct, in my haste to accept / decline my offer I assumed that as a Private I wouldn't have to worry about Pension maximums and blah blah so I skipped that part.  Thank you for confirming that for me though.

I'll try to find some time later to put a bit more information into my calculations.  We all know how frustrating it is to search for information and come close, only to find that what you're looking at is missing some information that is irrelevant to the OP but critical for you, haha.

---

To provide some closure: I accepted.  The Bank of Mom and Dad stepped in and I'm off to BMQ on 2013/07/06.

Thank you again to everyone who contributed in this thread.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (21 Jun 2013)

tenspeed said:
			
		

> I agree, $550 rations + ~$120 for quarters is a hell of a deal if that's the only time you're paying for it each month.  I don't know how $550 / month for rations at CFLRS is broken down, but I can tell you for sure: it's not all for one person's food.  So other than food, whatever is driving up the cost of rations are duplicate expenses that families pay at their home for their families and now for themselves while on course.
> 
> However, this is the policy.  I'm grateful I was given disclosure and a chance to accept / not accept these charges.



The cost of rations isn't just "buying the groceries" itself.  IIRC, it also factors in the entire overhead to put that food out.  Like any food service place does.

Even at home...you pay rent/mortgage to have a kitchen, a fridge to store stuff, power to operate the fridge and stove, etc.


----------



## tenspeed (22 Jun 2013)

Conclusions from my research on payroll deductions during BMQ for a Private (1) in 2013.


SingleMarried / Common LawSourceGross Monthly Income$2806.00$2806.00http://www.forces.ca/en/page/payscales-131Federal Tax (15%)-$420.90-$420.90http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.htmlCanadian Pension Plan (4.95%)-$138.90-$138.90http://www.tax-services.ca/category/cpp-ei-maximum-rates/Employment Insurance (1.73%)-$48.54-$48.54http://www.tax-services.ca/category/cpp-ei-maximum-rates/Canadian Forces Pension Plan (6.85%)-$192.21-$192.21http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pensions/notices-avis/2012-12-14b-eng.aspDeath Benefit-$10.20-$10.20http://managers-gestionnaires.gc.ca/forum/forum-2012-pension-PWGSC-TPSGC-eng.php - for anyone interested: =(ROUNDUP(2806*24,-3) / 1000) * -0.15Rations-$544.00-$544.00http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/menu/pd/14c-14t/index-eng.aspQuarters-$96.00$0.00http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/menu/pd/14c-14t/index-eng.aspNet Monthly Income$1355.25$1451.25

Will update when first pay stub is received. Updating this will probably a low priority once I start BMQ!  If anyone notices an error or ommision please take the time to correct me.


----------



## ambernewton04 (22 Jun 2013)

tenspeed said:
			
		

> Conclusions from my research on payroll deductions during BMQ for a Private (1) in 2013.
> 
> 
> SingleMarried / Common LawSource
> ...


----------



## ambernewton04 (22 Jun 2013)

Does anyone know if you can claim rations and quarters when you do your taxes? My husband went through last year so he didn't have to pay, but I will be going in 3 weeks and will now have to pay.


----------



## Davidson22 (22 Jun 2013)

A summary of pay and deductions at BMQ was included with my enrollment package. 

Rate of Pay: $2806.00

Deductions:

SDB - $6.65
EI - $40.44
CF Pension & CPP - $294.16
SISIP-LTD - $4.71
Income Tax (Fed & Prov.) - $392.67
PPIP - $15.38
Salex Tax - $0.6
Quarters ( Married/CL do not pay) - $96.00
Rations - $543.41

Net Pay:

Single - $1411.98
Married/CL - $1507.98

Hope this helps


----------



## PMedMoe (22 Jun 2013)

MP_HOPEFUL said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if you can claim rations and quarters when you do your taxes?



I doubt it very much.


----------



## mariomike (22 Jun 2013)

MP_HOPEFUL said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if you can claim rations and quarters when you do your taxes?



Also, you can see Reply #86. ( 88 and 90 )

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/69716/post-1223730.html#msg1223730


----------



## ambernewton04 (22 Jun 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Also, you can see Reply #86. ( 88 and 90 )
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/69716/post-1223730.html#msg1223730



Pretty clear answer lol, thanks!


----------



## mariomike (22 Jun 2013)

MP_HOPEFUL said:
			
		

> Pretty clear answer lol, thanks!



It never hurts to ask.


----------



## airforce85 (6 Aug 2013)

Just a question, probably for a clerk.

Joined military in 2007, became reg force 2010, I had a residence at time of joining reg force and my father was listed as a dependant on all my papers such as MPRR from reserves,  and I provided military with paperwork. Joined reg force as single, go to begin QL3 in june 2010, get rid of my residence as brookfield moved my F and E which was wrong as I was a restricted posting not prohibited, and my father could not move with me as he was on a medical trial and moved him in with my sister when training on QL3. Paid r and q, I am not arguing this. 

Sept 2010 get married while doing QL3 take father off my paperwork as dependant, then get pregnant, cease trained and husband then posted follow him on attach posting to finish pregnancy and continue on MATA, DCBA approves to move my F and E at publics expense to marital home, also a home I secured for my now young dependant because it had been erroneously stored from the beginning.

2012 go back on course to finish Ql3 leave dependant in the home I secured and where my F and E is, and husband who will be the primary care giver while attending mandatory training, and I am required to pay R and Q. This is where to me I am confused, as it is being explained to me I am not entitled because of married after COS date and no new posting so am considered "single" still until a new posting. This is what i am confused about, and heres my explanation as to why:

I am considered "single" on my message, but have a dependant, so technically if you take the whole marriage out I am a "single" parent and still have to find alternative care while attending training, and under DAOD 5003-5 it states that after a pregnant woman gives birth they have 17 weeks to vacate quarters or until the end of MATA which ever comes first, to secure a crown controlled or private residence, I chose a private residence for reasons such as my attach posting as well as where my F and E has been moved. SO I go to finish my Ql3 am paying all my household bills, child care, mortgage etc, and on top of that paying 785 a month for r and q, and this was before the new rules were implemented for R and Q and sep pay etc.

So after all my rambling and a very very short version of my complication situation, I just want an opinion from a clerk or some one who may have any knowledge on what I can expect to happen or any policies I am unaware of , as I am trying to get recuperation of the r and q I paid for 4 months.

Thank you.


----------



## DAA (6 Aug 2013)

PM inbound...

Mods, feel free to move this over to Military Administration.


----------



## Thinkingofenlisting (8 Aug 2013)

I have a question regarding living/housing. I realize that there is housing offered on bases across the country, as well as what I believe are termed "The Shacks", I might be wrong there. If I were to join, for the purpose of saving money I would just choose to live on base, I just need a bed and somewhere to sleep and I'm good. My question is how much does it cost to live in the dorm style housing and what are the options. Do you get your own room, is it shared, etc. I also would plan on joining as an officer (trade to be determined). If anyone could provide me with some info I would appreciate it.


----------



## JorgSlice (8 Aug 2013)

Rations (Food) & Quarters (Housing) typically works out to about $550/month.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33594/post-253725.html#msg253725


----------



## Pusser (8 Aug 2013)

In my experience, any money "saved" (which isn't all that much because R&Q is not as cheap as you might think) is quickly spent on entertainment (bars, movies, etc.).  To me, the ability to sit in front of the TV, watching whatever I wanted, in my underwear with a bowl of Cheerios far outweighed any potential, yet negligible savings to be had by living in single quarters.


----------



## Thinkingofenlisting (8 Aug 2013)

Thanks for the info. It doesn't seem like the best deal from what I've been reading.


----------



## dimsum (9 Aug 2013)

I did both for a while.  If you're young and single, then the shacks aren't as a bad idea at least in training and the first bit of a posting.  This will obviously depend on how busy/deployed your trade ends up being; when I was a MARS officer, living in the Wardroom for the first year or so was pretty good since I was hardly ever there.

But as a long-term thing?  I'd advise against it.


----------



## PuckChaser (9 Aug 2013)

You may not have that choice, depending on the base. If you're posted to Kingston, and you're DP1 (trade qualified) you will not be allowed to get a room in the shacks. You MAY get a PMQ but as a single member your priority would be very low on the waiting list.


----------



## Thinkingofenlisting (11 Aug 2013)

Thanks again for the info. Just wondering then, I have a friend posted in Petawawa who lives off base but relatively close in town. He told me that a lot of the guys live further away in chalk river/deep river which I think is about 30 or 40 minutes away. I prefer living in the country so my question would be, how far away from base would be too far to live? 1hour from base? would that be too far?


----------



## Sunnyns (12 Aug 2013)

I think the shacks are great for the young single people.

1. Some bases do walk through inspections.  Just to make sure there is no rotting food and pizza boxes. Sorry but some people need this still, shouldn't but do.
2. You don't have to worry about cooking (the mess) 
3. Laundry and showers are there
4. Your bed, dresser and desk are provided.  You might have to get your own sheets and blankets.
5. Your close to work
6. There are other people that might be going through the same things you are.  Away from home and/or family.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (12 Aug 2013)

Thinkingofenlisting said:
			
		

> Thanks again for the info. Just wondering then, I have a friend posted in Petawawa who lives off base but relatively close in town. He told me that a lot of the guys live further away in chalk river/deep river which I think is about 30 or 40 minutes away. I prefer living in the country so my question would be, how far away from base would be too far to live? 1hour from base? would that be too far?



Every base has a geographical area, in which you are allowed to live. To live outside of that area, you must request permission from your unit.


----------



## blacktriangle (12 Aug 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You may not have that choice, depending on the base. If you're posted to Kingston, and you're DP1 (trade qualified) you will not be allowed to get a room in the shacks. You MAY get a PMQ but as a single member your priority would be very low on the waiting list.



Did the finally boot people out of B77? I remember hearing that the base commander wasn't pleased that there were MCpls living in SQ's.


----------



## garb811 (12 Aug 2013)

I liked living in shacks as a single rat, if when I drank away all my money, I still had food to eat.  Times and salaries were different of course,  your mileage may vary.


----------



## mariomike (12 Aug 2013)

Thinkingofenlisting said:
			
		

> Just wondering then, I have a friend posted in Petawawa who lives off base but relatively close in town. He told me that a lot of the guys live further away in chalk river/deep river which I think is about 30 or 40 minutes away. I prefer living in the country so my question would be, how far away from base would be too far to live? 1hour from base? would that be too far?



There's discussion about living at CFB Petawawa, and places ( Chalk River, Deep River and others ) to live near in the area.

Petawawa Thread- Merged
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40540.0
  
Recently Posted to Petawawa
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/110348.0


----------



## Ostrozac (12 Aug 2013)

Thinkingofenlisting said:
			
		

> I have a question regarding living/housing. I realize that there is housing offered on bases across the country, as well as what I believe are termed "The Shacks", I might be wrong there. If I were to join, for the purpose of saving money I would just choose to live on base, I just need a bed and somewhere to sleep and I'm good. My question is how much does it cost to live in the dorm style housing and what are the options. Do you get your own room, is it shared, etc. I also would plan on joining as an officer (trade to be determined). If anyone could provide me with some info I would appreciate it.



Bear in mind that the state of single quarters varies widely by posting location.  At some postings there are simply no single quarters at all (Ottawa, for example), in some places there is a shortage, so they are not generally available to trained single personnel (Gagetown is one) and at some bases living in the shacks is a popular lifestyle choice (Petawawa has all ranks from Privates to Majors living in single quarters).


----------



## jk_7 (21 Aug 2013)

Good Afternoon,
I finish BMQ in early December if everything goes as it should. I'm just trying to get a grasp of what will follow once BMQ is over. Such as if I will be sent to wherever training for AC OP is held (North Bay according to the Canadian forces site), or if I will report to somewhere else. Not sure if the holidays will be a factor but its not really a concern for me if I'm working or not. Also any general information anyone feels like providing about the AC OP training is more than welcome. 
Thanks again in advance.


----------



## PMedMoe (21 Aug 2013)

Try looking in the Aircrew Trades subforum.   :nod:

(Pretty sure there's a rather lengthy thread on the trade....)


----------



## dardt (21 Aug 2013)

jk_7 said:
			
		

> Good Afternoon,
> I finish BMQ in early December if everything goes as it should. I'm just trying to get a grasp of what will follow once BMQ is over. Such as if I will be sent to wherever training for AC OP is held (North Bay according to the Canadian forces site), or if I will report to somewhere else. Not sure if the holidays will be a factor but its not really a concern for me if I'm working or not. Also any general information anyone feels like providing about the AC OP training is more than welcome.
> Thanks again in advance.



Concern yourself only with BMQ for now, focus on getting through that first. 

Once you complete BMQ you will be posted to a unit for "OJT", along with studying your pre-course package (for QL3, assuming they still have that). You could be posted to any one of a number of units post BMQ, i.e. North Bay BTL, 12Rdr, 42Rdr, any ATC unit (i.e Greenwood, Shearwater, Bagotville, Trenton etc..). There are usually three QL3 courses per year, most often Sept, Jan, Apr/ May in Cornwall ON. With Dec timing you could end up on the Jan QL3, but that depends on if there's a backlog. Your best option for OJT post BMQ is an ATC unit, since a lack of security clearance won't prevent you from seeing / learning something directly trade related. If you're sent to North Bay or a Radar Unit for OJT you'll be doing unrelated work until you have a security clearance (although this can be a good time to complete other courses like 404's, language profile etc..). FYI most people don't have their security clearance until their QL3 is completed, and sometimes later. Good luck.


----------



## jk_7 (23 Aug 2013)

Thank you both. Much appreciated!


----------



## youkissass (17 Sep 2013)

I went through the search engine to find the answer, but couldn't find them in the end and decided to just ask directly (maybe I over looked it?).

Anyway, I'm not in the army, but I do hope to join them in the near future, and I been collecting as much information as I could, either from the gov site or  from this form, which has been extremely helpful so far. And so to the question at hand! How much is the rent cost for a room in the garrison, which people seems to call it a "shack" ?

And I'm assuming different garrison have different rent price and whether you share a room or have a room to yourself is also a factor, so any general number would be a great help! And in case it matters, I'm planning on joining the Infantry or the Combat Engineer. 

Thanks in advance for anyone who replies!


----------



## DAA (17 Sep 2013)

For a new Pte.  On the high end of the scale $309.00 per month (Single Room, shared bath) and on the low end $97.00 (Dorm style, shared bath).

It all depends on the "type" of accommodation being provided and the rating (ie; Poor to Very Good).


----------



## PMedMoe (17 Sep 2013)

And don't forget the cost of rations, if you're not able to de-link.


----------



## youkissass (17 Sep 2013)

Thanks you for the clear info!

And this might be going a bit off topic from the original post, but I have some more questions about living at the Garrison. Am I correct to assume that the meals are not covered? (Seeing as PMedMoe said ration is not covered  and what is this "de-link"?)Or is the lunch served by the military and the rest of the meals are from our own pocket? And do you also have to pay for the utility bills, such as water, electricity, and internet and such? I'm mainly interested in how we would pay for the internet. Assuming that we are even allow to have internet that is .


----------



## MikeL (17 Sep 2013)

youkissass said:
			
		

> Am I correct to assume that the meals are not covered?



Meals are another expense on top of paying for your room.



			
				youkissass said:
			
		

> and what is this "de-link"?



Living in barracks, but opting not to pay for rations(food) from the mess. You can pay cash for meals at the mess if you aren't paying rations. 



			
				youkissass said:
			
		

> Or is the lunch served by the military and the rest of the meals are from our own pocket?



If you are paying for rations(food), you are paying for 3 meals a day for every day of the month.



			
				youkissass said:
			
		

> And do you also have to pay for the utility bills, such as water, electricity, and internet and such?



You do not pay utilities.  Internet you will have to pay for unless your barracks has wifi available for everyone - only seen this in some barracks in Edmonton and I believe transient quarters in Meaford(or at least they used to).




			
				youkissass said:
			
		

> I'm mainly interested in how we would pay for the internet. Assuming that we are even allow to have internet that is .



You would pay for internet like you would any where else, paying the ISP.

To set up the internet you would go through a ISP and they will send a tech to do the hook up(some places, base Sigs will do the hook up). When on course, for the most part don't expect to be able to have internet.  How ever, some schools may allow you to get internet hooked up or may already provide wifi for everyone.  Once you are out of the training system and posted to your unit you are allowed to have internet/cable.


----------



## youkissass (17 Sep 2013)

Thank you Skeletor for the helpful info!


----------



## Nfld Sapper (17 Sep 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Just like you would anywhere else;  call a Internet Service Provider and go through them.  They will send a tech to hook you up, etc. When on course, for the most part don't expect to be able to have internet.  How ever, some schools may allow you to get internet hooked up or may already provide wifi for everyone.  Once you are out of the training system and posted to your unit you are allowed to have internet/cable.



At least for GAGETOWN, base Sigs does your internet hook up in the shacks. BELL provides service to the main hub and then Sigs takes over.


----------



## MikeL (17 Sep 2013)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> At least for GAGETOWN, base Sigs does your internet hook up in the shacks. BELL provides service to the main hub and then Sigs takes over.



Thanks, didn't know that;  edited my post to reflect this.  All the places I've been, we had to call a ISP to come down and do the hook up unless wifi was already available in the barracks.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (18 Sep 2013)

You must still go to bell to set up an account, etc.... though


----------



## Newguy1 (24 Sep 2013)

How often are people in AC Op trade able to get their posting of choice, or at least their top 3?

Also, is possible/likely in the AC op trade to spend a good chunk of your career at one base (say 10 or 15 years in north bay or trenton)?

Thanks


----------



## Cbbmtt (10 Oct 2013)

Just to quadruple confirm and revive a dead thread.

If I have a son who I'm paying for, however I'm separated, I only pay rations and not quarters?

Thanks.


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Oct 2013)

Cbbmtt said:
			
		

> Just the thread to quadruple confirm and revive a dead thread.
> 
> If I have a son who I'm paying for, however I'm separated, I only pay rations and not quarters?



Paying what?  Child support?  In that case, you will pay both R&Q.


----------



## Cbbmtt (10 Oct 2013)

Even if I have a mortgage?


----------



## PMedMoe (10 Oct 2013)

Will your son be living alone in the house while you're gone?  I'm not sure what the regulations are for someone with a mortgage of an unoccupied house.


----------



## tylerlleslie (23 Oct 2013)

I would just like to point out that while on PAT/PAR we pay...

$97.00 for a bunkbed with up to 12 persons a room (shared bathroom with up to 150 pers) and
$565.85 for Rations a month... Anyone eaten here before?

 :facepalm:

Anyone else here on PAT/PAR? What do you pay? Is it all the same?


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Oct 2013)

adventure-guide said:
			
		

> I would just like to point out that while on PAT/PAR we pay...
> 
> $97.00 for a bunkbed with up to 12 persons a room (shared bathroom with up to 150 pers) and
> $565.85 for Rations a month... Anyone eaten here before?
> ...



Sweet Jesus    the $97 for a bunk bed with all those roomies is high but manageable but $565.85 in rations!  Crazy


----------



## Strike (23 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Sweet Jesus    the $97 for a bunk bed with all those roomies is high but manageable but $565.85 in rations!  Crazy



It does seem a tad high, but you also have to consider that this includes the cost of prep, cooking and clean-up.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Oct 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> It does seem a tad high, but you also have to consider that this includes the cost of prep, cooking and clean-up.



These cost are cover by the DND budget no ?  Aren't we kind of double charging for this ?

How can we charge members for a portion a salary and service that is already paid for by raised taxes ?


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> These cost are cover by the DND budget no ?  Aren't we kind of double charging for this ?
> 
> How can we charge members for a portion a salary and service that is already paid for by raised taxes ?



Probably not paying salaries but paying for heat, hot water, electricity, detergent, etc....


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Oct 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Probably not paying salaries but paying for heat, hot water, electricity, detergent, etc....



The heat, hot water and electricity are again services covered by public taxes no ?  I mean I don't pay CFJSR to cover its utilities.  And detergent would be something set up on an LPO contract through a company like Swish and again covered at public expense... 

I just don't get how we charge members for a service that is covered publicly and then not give them the option to "opt out". 

I would like to see a cost break down on the total bill.


----------



## dapaterson (23 Oct 2013)

No.  Kitchens are supposed to be run on a cost recovery basis - that is, the payments received should cover all operating costs, including salaries.

However, costs are set centrally by TBS, so there is likely variation in the actual local cost.


----------



## captloadie (23 Oct 2013)

Most kitchens receive very little baseline funding above and beyond what they take in as "revenue". It is actually the salaries of the employees (less military staff I believe), the cost of food, and all the other things directly related to providing that service (less utilities which are normally centrally funded on most bases). Everyone always compares the cost of rations to what it costs to _buy the food _ to eat at home. If you calculate the food costs, the cost for dishes, the power to run your oven/microwave, coffee maker, refrigerator, and the value of your time to prepare the meals (and the portion of the initial outlay for the appliances over their life span) what does that equal? You really need to look at comparing the cost of rations, vs. the cost of eating at a restaurant at cost.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Oct 2013)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Most kitchens receive very little baseline funding above and beyond what they take in as "revenue". It is actually the salaries of the employees (less military staff I believe), the cost of food, and all the other things directly related to providing that service (less utilities which are normally centrally funded on most bases). Everyone always compares the cost of rations to what it costs to _buy the food _ to eat at home. If you calculate the food costs, the cost for dishes, the power to run your oven/microwave, coffee maker, refrigerator, and the value of your time to prepare the meals (and the portion of the initial outlay for the appliances over their life span) what does that equal? You really need to look at comparing the cost of rations, vs. the cost of eating at a restaurant at cost.



Good stuff learn something new every day!  I still say it should be gospel you don't have to buy in...


----------



## DAA (23 Oct 2013)

When it comes to kitchens, the building and utilities are "baseline" funded and those costs belong to CE as part of the local "infra-structure" budget.  

So now you have your kitchen which needs to provide a service and they are also allocated a portion of the overall Base/Wing O&M budget, which covers everything from soup to nuts (ie; rations, napkins, cutlery, civilian wages, TD, basically anything you would need to run a Kitchen).  This is also "baseline" funded, however, the budget allocation is generally not sufficient for the kitchen to fully operate.  Your ration deductions are collected by Ottawa, who in turn pass these funds back down to your local Base/Wing on a quarterly basis and the local comptroller will normally inject the cash back into the Kitchen budget to keep things running.  Same also pretty much applies to "cash sales" at meal times (ie; revenue).

So what you are paying for, is not just the grocery costs for the meal that your eating but also for the daily operation of the kitchen, to a certain extent.  So if service is slow, the food sucks, there is not enough milk and deserts at dinner time, then the initial O&M allocation to your kitchen just may be lacking.  Or someone is bad at planning.


----------



## tylerlleslie (23 Oct 2013)

I totally agree that you have to look at all the other costs that go into the food prep and stuff vs. just that amount of money to go buy food.. The biggest "issue" i have with those crazy cost is the quality of the food. Example: today for lunch I had a "Stuffed chicken" (it was one of those stuffed chicken things you get in a box at walmart about 3"X2") with an apple and some milk and water, not that it was the only choice, but it was the "best" choice. HAHA An I have no doubt in my mind that I will see those left overs served in the salad bar for supper tonight (since its hit or miss on weather we can have seonds).
All our food is made in huge bluk orders and whatever isnt used gets reused... to me that seems like I am either paying for too much food or paying for it twice to accomadate the prep needed to cook. This is a training base so a lot of people that come here are not even paying for their meals directly... feels like everyone actualy living here has to pick up the tab...

Still beats box lunches tho...


----------



## dapaterson (23 Oct 2013)

More info is at:

http://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/index.php?sid=120&hl=1&lang=eng#tc-tm_5_1

and

http://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/index.php?sid=134&hl=1&lang=eng


----------



## DAA (23 Oct 2013)

On another note, how about "Ration Remits".  When was the last time you saw that on your pay guide, if they even still exist?


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> On another note, how about "Ration Remits".  When was the last time you saw that on your pay guide, if they even still exist?



Never heard of it.  Care to explain ?


----------



## PMedMoe (23 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> On another note, how about "Ration Remits".  When was the last time you saw that on your pay guide, if they even still exist?



Is that when they used to pay you back for rations when you were on leave?  I don't think they do that any more as I don't think they take away your ration card when you go on leave.  Mind you, it's been a few years for me....


----------



## MJP (24 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> On another note, how about "Ration Remits".  When was the last time you saw that on your pay guide, if they even still exist?



They still happen for living in folks that go exercise and the like.


----------



## JorgSlice (24 Oct 2013)

adventure-guide said:
			
		

> I totally agree that you have to look at all the other costs that go into the food prep and stuff vs. just that amount of money to go buy food.. The biggest "issue" i have with those crazy cost is the quality of the food. Example: today for lunch I had a "Stuffed chicken" (it was one of those stuffed chicken things you get in a box at walmart about 3"X2") with an apple and some milk and water, not that it was the only choice, but it was the "best" choice. HAHA An I have no doubt in my mind that I will see those left overs served in the salad bar for supper tonight (since its hit or miss on weather we can have seonds).
> All our food is made in huge bluk orders and whatever isnt used gets reused... to me that seems like I am either paying for too much food or paying for it twice to accomadate the prep needed to cook. This is a training base so a lot of people that come here are not even paying for their meals directly... feels like everyone actualy living here has to pick up the tab...
> 
> Still beats box lunches tho...



I recently spent a week at Valcartier. Food was pretty damn good.


----------



## kratz (24 Oct 2013)

I'm living in residence, and the cost of food is included within the housing cost. The quality and choice of food served makes me cry to be back at a CF galley. As others mentioned, milk/drinks being out of service (out of stock), overcooked mush pasta, fruit flies in the bread, slugs in the reposed salads and stews that literally do look like vomit. These are some of the daily complaints here, with little not no improvement.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (24 Oct 2013)

kratz said:
			
		

> I'm living in residence, and the cost of food is included within the housing cost. The quality and choice of food served makes me cry to be back at a CF galley. As others mentioned, milk/drinks being out of service (out of stock), overcooked mush pasta, fruit flies in the bread, slugs in the reposed salads and stews that literally do look like vomit. These are some of the daily complaints here, with little not no improvement.



  Where the hell is that at ???


----------



## DAA (24 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Never heard of it.  Care to explain ?



Your Ration Deductions are "remitted" back to you in instances described in CFAO 208-1, para 52.  (Field Ex, Ship out of Port, Emb/Disemb Lve, TD, TT between postings, Comp Lve, etc).

When you go on Annual Leave, you are suppose to hand your Ration Card in but it rarely happens these days.


----------



## edlabonte (24 Oct 2013)

It is very common for you to get one of your top 3 after QL3.  They don't guarantee  you anything as per, but the CM is pretty good with first postings.  

Some wings like North Bay and Cold Lake you could spend a lot of time there if you wanted, but i wouldn't expect to spend a decade at any other posting.


----------



## Pusser (30 Oct 2013)

The reason you're supposed to hand in your ration card when on annual leave is that deductions for rations are based on 11 months spread over 12 months (i.e. you pay monthly over a 12 month period for 11 months worth of rations).  You are actually not entitled to rations while on ANNUAL leave.  However, as has been noted, no one bothers to monitor this anymore.  It's still noted on the CF100 (leave pass) though.  There are numerous flaws in this theory, which is probably why we no longer bother to monitor it.


----------



## BYFROMSCHOOL (9 Dec 2013)

Is there any allowance relating to rent (PMedMoe mentioned PLD) for Recruits who currently live common law and are bound to a lease? 

I will talk to my RC about this, just thought I would check with you well-informed people. 

I need to figure this out so I can budget and make financial goals for this upcoming year. I currently share the rent of $900, so $450. If there isn't any allowance/benefit then I'll only take home shy of a grand each month during basic, and I assume around the same during my trade training.  :-\


----------



## Cbbmtt (9 Dec 2013)

You would save on the $96, but you would still be paying for rations.



			
				BYFROMSCHOOL said:
			
		

> Is there any allowance relating to rent (PMedMoe mentioned PLD) for Recruits who currently live common law and are bound to a lease?
> 
> I will talk to my RC about this, just thought I would check with you well-informed people.
> 
> I need to figure this out so I can budget and make financial goals for this upcoming year. I currently share the rent of $900, so $450. If there isn't any allowance/benefit then I'll only take home shy of a grand each month during basic, and I assume around the same during my trade training.  :-\


----------



## vivelespatates (10 Dec 2013)

libria said:
			
		

> Conclusions from my research on payroll deductions during BMQ for a Private (1) in 2013.
> 
> 
> SingleMarried / Common LawSourceGross Monthly Income$2806.00$2806.00http://www.forces.ca/en/page/payscales-131Federal Tax (15%)-$420.90-$420.90http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.htmlCanadian Pension Plan (4.95%)-$138.90-$138.90http://www.tax-services.ca/category/cpp-ei-maximum-rates/Employment Insurance (1.73%)-$48.54-$48.54http://www.tax-services.ca/category/cpp-ei-maximum-rates/Canadian Forces Pension Plan (6.85%)-$192.21-$192.21http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pensions/notices-avis/2012-12-14b-eng.aspDeath Benefit-$10.20-$10.20http://managers-gestionnaires.gc.ca/forum/forum-2012-pension-PWGSC-TPSGC-eng.php - for anyone interested: =(ROUNDUP(2806*24,-3) / 1000) * -0.15Rations-$544.00-$544.00http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/menu/pd/14c-14t/index-eng.aspQuarters-$96.00$0.00http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/menu/pd/14c-14t/index-eng.aspNet Monthly Income$1355.25$1451.25
> ...



I just looked at the website concerning the CF Pension Plan, the contribution rates is going to increase so much during the next 3 years :

Contribution Rates
Description 	                                                                                                          2013 	2014 	2015
On earnings up to the maximum covered by the Canada/Quebec Pension Plan 	6.85% 	7.50% 	8.15%
On any earnings over the maximum covered by the Canada/Quebec Pension Plan 	9.20% 	9.80% 	10.40%

With the RRQ/RPC it's going to be close to 13 % of your salary. Considering that this the babyboomers going to retirement soon, the contribution rates(Both Cf Pension plan and RPC) will continue to increase considerably for the next couple of year. Am I the only one who is worried about it.? I mean, I don't want to pay like 20-25 % out of my paycheck for retirement in a near future!


----------



## dapaterson (10 Dec 2013)

The intent is to move to approximately equal cost sharing for pension contributions; that is, for every dollar contributed by members, the government will also contribute one.


----------



## Pusser (10 Dec 2013)

BYFROMSCHOOL said:
			
		

> Is there any allowance relating to rent (PMedMoe mentioned PLD) for Recruits who currently live common law and are bound to a lease?
> 
> I will talk to my RC about this, just thought I would check with you well-informed people.
> 
> I need to figure this out so I can budget and make financial goals for this upcoming year. I currently share the rent of $900, so $450. If there isn't any allowance/benefit then I'll only take home shy of a grand each month during basic, and I assume around the same during my trade training.  :-\



As a general rule, if you are maintaining a residence elsewhere, you don't have to pay for quarters when away on training.  It usually doesn't matter whether you are renting or paying a mortgage, but you do have to show proof (e.g. a lease or a mortgage document).  Take note that claiming that you are paying rent on your old bedroom at your parents' house doesn't usually qualify.


----------



## vivelespatates (10 Dec 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The intent is to move to approximately equal cost sharing for pension contributions; that is, for every dollar contributed by members, the government will also contribute one.



Yeah I know that! 

But even when it's going to be 50/50, the contribution rate will continue to increase considerably. And that's what I'm concerned about.! 

For exemple : People who works for Government in Quebec pay 50 %, and the Government pay 50% too. And the Contribution rate is by now, 9.18, they've announced that's it's gonna increase gradually until 2016 to 11.XX. 

So, even when it's gonna be 50/50, the Contribution rate will for sure continue to Increase. RPQ/RRQ also considering the points i mentionned in the above post. And that's what I'm concerned about!


----------



## Cbbmtt (10 Dec 2013)

I got my package on Friday and they said my Approximate take home would be $1411 and I'm single.



			
				vivelespatates said:
			
		

> I just looked at the website concerning the CF Pension Plan, the contribution rates is going to increase so much during the next 3 years :
> 
> Contribution Rates
> Description 	                                                                                                          2013 	2014 	2015
> ...


----------



## firehoser (13 Jan 2014)

In what circumstances / type of posting do you _not_ have to pay R & Q?


----------



## Nfld Sapper (13 Jan 2014)

If you are from the local area then no R&Q even if on CFTPO....


----------



## Eye In The Sky (13 Jan 2014)

firehoser said:
			
		

> In what circumstances / type of posting do you _not_ have to pay R & Q?



If you are on TD, you don't.  I think if you are on Attach Posting you don't as well provided you have dependents and maintain a primary residence at your place of duty.  Not 100% on that one anymore....


----------



## firehoser (13 Jan 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If you are on TD, you don't.  I think if you are on Attach Posting you don't as well provided you have dependents and maintain a primary residence at your place of duty.  Not 100% on that one anymore....



What about a restricted posting, I do have a residence and dependents.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (14 Jan 2014)

I think (can't say for sure without looking at refs) that the recent (last year/year and a half) changes to the policies broke down to members with a residence and dependents on a restricted posting are now required to pay for R but not Q.

Are you in the trg system, but not yet on your first posting after training?


----------



## DAA (14 Jan 2014)

firehoser said:
			
		

> In what circumstances / type of posting do you _not_ have to pay R & Q?



Only during periods of "Attach Posting" which trigger benefits similar to personnel on TD.


----------



## firehoser (16 Jan 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I think (can't say for sure without looking at refs) that the recent (last year/year and a half) changes to the policies broke down to members with a residence and dependents on a restricted posting are now required to pay for R but not Q.
> 
> Are you in the trg system, but not yet on your first posting after training?



That's what I have been hearing, and if it's the case than so be it but as soon as I ask "why" or "what policy / CFAO..." there is no clear answer to be had.

I've aslo applied for SE and it was approved so at least I got that going for me.

At the moment I am restricted posted to BTL on a QL3 in 2 months.

Thanks,


----------



## DAA (16 Jan 2014)

firehoser said:
			
		

> That's what I have been hearing, and if it's the case than so be it but as soon as I ask "why" or "what policy / CFAO..." there is no clear answer to be had.
> I've aslo applied for SE and it was approved so at least I got that going for me.
> At the moment I am restricted posted to BTL on a QL3 in 2 months.
> Thanks,



Then based on your comments, you are currently on the right track.  You don't pay for your accommodations but you still have to pay for your Rations.  Once you complete your QL3 trg and are posted for "first time employment", it will be a Restricted Posting at which time you can relocate your family to your location.  Until that relocation takes place, you will still not pay for accommodations but "might" have to pay for one level or another of rations depending on the local policy.


----------



## BorisK (14 Mar 2014)

I'm currently awaiting an interview and medical, and at this time the recruiting centre doesn't have much intel for me regarding the following (to be fair they are pretty busy, they aren't HR as someone said earlier, and I will probably be given this info in a few months if I'm lucky enough to become merit listed and receive and offer).   If someone could be kind enough to tell me the following it would be much appreciated :

I'm Single, applying for regular force NCM, renting an apartment on a lease.  

If offered to attend basic :
-will the CF pay for the cost of cancelling my lease, and the cost of storage of all my personal effects?  Will I have to cover the costs and then wait several weeks for reimbursement?

-when leave is issued throughout your career, are there any allowances for travel expenses, or is return to hometown from base & back again following leave an out of pocket expense?

-if I don't have anyone (friends or family) available to assist in shipping my belongings from storage to my first posting, how do you suspect the transfer would be handled? Send me on leave to handle it?

-Lastly, are there any programs or allowances you wish you knew about that you wish you took advantage of sooner? (Financial planning, housing assistance, pretty much anything that in your view is often overlooked/under utilized by green recruits : besides the search button - which I did use but my phone keeps crashing when I try it  )

Thanks


----------



## DAA (14 Mar 2014)

BorisK said:
			
		

> I'm currently awaiting an interview and medical, and at this time the recruiting centre doesn't have much intel for me regarding the following (to be fair they are pretty busy, they aren't HR as someone said earlier, and I will probably be given this info in a few months if I'm lucky enough to become merit listed and receive and offer).   If someone could be kind enough to tell me the following it would be much appreciated :
> 
> I'm Single, applying for regular force NCM, renting an apartment on a lease.
> 
> ...



I'm not entirely certain about coverage of lease breaking penalties but YES the CF will pay to have your personal effects stored.  In fact, they even send a Moving Company over to do all the work for you!  Also, once you are occupation qualified and posted for first time employment, the CF will also ship your personal effects from storage directly to your new location.

The CF does have a benefit called "Leave Transportation Assistance" and is normally only payable to "single" members.  Reimbursement is based on round trip milieage (from where you are serving) back to the location of your parents or place of enrolment, minus 700 km and then multiplied by the applicable kilometric rate.  It is only claimable "once" per fiscal/leave year.


----------



## stayfrosty (2 Jun 2014)

Davidson said:
			
		

> A summary of pay and deductions at BMQ was included with my enrollment package.
> 
> Rate of Pay: $2806.00
> Net Pay:
> ...



Yes it does .. thanks for the info!
I know I will be taking a pay cut if/when I enroll, but it was great to see the breakdown of the numbers!


----------



## Madjai (8 Jul 2014)

I've been on a lot of military courses - this is the first time I've heard of a course where they make you pay for rations and quarters.  What's the reasoning behind this?


----------



## Dissident (8 Jul 2014)

The best I can do is this:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/33594.0.html

I'm pretty sure your answer is in there, sadly I don't have time to dig for you right now.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Jul 2014)

Yup, its the new way, unless you are TD to the Trg Establishment.

I'm guessing you are a new CT to the Reg's;  things are different from the PRES and this is one of them now.


----------



## George Wallace (8 Jul 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Yup, its the new way, unless you are TD to the Trg Establishment.
> 
> I'm guessing you are a new CT to the Reg's;  things are different from the PRES and this is one of them now.



Yup!  You are now in a full time job.  Like every other working stiff in the country, you will have to pay for your food and accommodations.   

Oh!  Don't forget.....You also have to pay Taxes, CPP, EI, PS Dental and Health Plans, SISIP if you got it, etc.


----------



## DAA (8 Jul 2014)

Madjai said:
			
		

> I've been on a lot of military courses - this is the first time I've heard of a course where they make you pay for rations and quarters.  What's the reasoning behind this?



My guess would be that you're "Posted BTL" to the training establishment for initial occupation training.  Nothing out of the ordinary.


----------



## Madjai (9 Jul 2014)

Ahhh ok... How's it work if you have a house and spouse in another city then?  Sorry, a bit new to this.


----------



## DAA (9 Jul 2014)

Madjai said:
			
		

> Ahhh ok... How's it work if you have a house and spouse in another city then?  Sorry, a bit new to this.



Seeing as they have done away with Separation Expense, the only thing that you will get is "Free Quarters" but you will still have to pay for Rations.


----------



## IrelandMama (18 Nov 2014)

Hello, I am the spouse of a CF member who is currently completing DP1 training. I searched the threads containing information about exemptions for rations and/or barracks/housing during training, much of which was last posted in 2010. I understand there has been significant overhaul and cost-cutting measures since, and am seeking current numbers of allowances. Some background: during my spouse's BMQ training, we owned a home and furnished the CF with copies of our mortgage agreement from our lender, but were always deducted rations and quarters irrespective of those mortgage commitments. I assume then, that the CF no longer provides any break for those already paying a mortgage? Further, we weren't given any separation allowance, therefore; I assume separation is something only regular force (after BMQ/training is complete) members are entitled to? Or have they eradicated that benefit entirely? Needless to say, we were forced to sell the home promptly. Since then, my spouse was awaiting training (PAT) for 7 months, and was relocated two provinces over to complete DP1 training. We relocated our family to modest apartment nearby at our own cost. Currently, the CF continues to deduct rations and quarters, and requires (understandably) that my spouse remain in barracks for the duration of his 8 month training. Is this correct? Or are we missing out on exemptions we ought to be claiming? Finances are, understandably, very tight and any break we may be entitled to receive would be welcome. We remain committed to our choice of joint the CF family, and understood the financial and relocation challenges, most especially during the initial first year or two of training --- just want to be certain we are getting what we should be. Any assistance would be much appreciated.


----------



## DAA (18 Nov 2014)

Rations are a must and have to be paid for while undergoing training.  Quarters, however, should be free of charge provided one of you continue to maintain a "principle" residence somewhere.


----------



## PMedMoe (18 Nov 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Quarters, however, should be free of charge provided one of you continue to maintain a "principle" residence somewhere.



Now that they've sold their house and moved at their own expense, there may not be a provision for this.  I do agree that the member should not have been paying for quarters as long as they owned the house.  I would advise the member to seek help/info from their clerks.


----------



## IrelandMama (18 Nov 2014)

Thank you for your reply. I'm still trying to make sense of all the deductions, but does $500 per month for rations alone sound correct? Just seems very steep for feeding a single person for a month. (Although I can appreciate if this figure is indicative to the staff they employ to prepare meals.)


----------



## IrelandMama (18 Nov 2014)

We sold the home quickly, thankfully --- but we were paying for both rations and quarters during BMQ as well as our mortgage payments. He was unsure if bringing it to the clerk's attention now had any merit; I suppose we would be reimbursed retroactively perhaps? Thank you for your guidance  Much appreciated.


----------



## PMedMoe (18 Nov 2014)

IrelandMama said:
			
		

> but we were paying for both rations and quarters during BMQ as well as our mortgage payments. He was unsure if bringing it to the clerk's attention now had any merit; I suppose we would be reimbursed retroactively perhaps?



Yes.  He should go and get this sorted out.



			
				IrelandMama said:
			
		

> but does $500 per month for rations alone sound correct?



Unfortunately, yes...


----------



## DAA (18 Nov 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Now that they've sold their house and moved at their own expense, there may not be a provision for this.  I do agree that the member should not have been paying for quarters as long as they owned the house.  I would advise the member to seek help/info from their clerks.



Entirely possible, given that there was a relocation which took place after enrolment.  This sounds like a rather "complex" issue and as PMedMoe has indicated, best handled by your local orderly room.

The current published rate for "Full" Rations is $538.72 per month.


----------



## Kat Stevens (18 Nov 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Entirely possible, given that there was a relocation which took place after enrolment.  This sounds like a rather "complex" issue and as PMedMoe has indicated, best handled by your local orderly room.
> 
> The current published rate for "Full" Rations is $538.72 per month.



That's a crazy amount, if I spent that a month on groceries, me and the dogs would be eating pretty well.


----------



## PuckChaser (18 Nov 2014)

I feed a family of 4 with good quality food for less than $400 a month. We're scamming our new soldiers...


----------



## Loachman (18 Nov 2014)

Now factor in the percentage of your mortgage that pays for your kitchen and diningroom, the cost of the appliances to store, prepare, and cook the food, diningroom furniture, cooking vessels, and dinnerware, the percentage purchase, insurance, maintenance, and operating costs of the car with which you go shopping for food, percentage of your mortgage that pays for the driveway and garage for that car, percentage cost of utilities used for food storage, preparation, and waste disposal, percent cost of property taxes that cover the kitchen and diningroom of your house, and the salary of those who prepare your food, and your household PMed Tech who makes sure that nobody gets food poisoning, and......

Businesses have to account for all associated costs. Non-profit organizations do, too. The CF has to pay for more than just the food itself.


----------



## KerryBlue (18 Nov 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I feed a family of 4 with good quality food for less than $400 a month. We're scamming our new soldiers...



I don't see it that way. Coming from university the CF charges less for Rations and Quarters then universities do for room and board..
From CFLRS website 



> For Non-Commissioned Members: If you are single, you must pay rations and quarters throughout your stay at the School at a cost of $663* per month.



The cheapest room and board you can get here at Carleton university is 9,901. http://housing.carleton.ca/fees-and-food/ Meal Plan D, and that only provides you with 5 meals per week. That works out to 1237.63$ a month and you still need to purchase food for 10-15 more meals assuming your eating three square meals a day. Meal plan F which is unlimited meals per week is 11,138$ or 1392.25$ monthly.


----------



## OldSolduer (18 Nov 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I feed a family of 4 with good quality food for less than $400 a month. We're scamming our new soldiers...



It goes to pay for the civilian kitchen workers I'm sure......and other things.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Nov 2014)

KerryBlue said:
			
		

> I don't see it that way. Coming from university the CF charges less for Rations and Quarters then universities do for room and board..
> From CFLRS website
> 
> 
> The cheapest room and board you can get here at Carleton university is 9,901. http://housing.carleton.ca/fees-and-food/ Meal Plan D, and that only provides you with 5 meals per week. That works out to 1237.63$ a month and you still need to purchase food for 10-15 more meals assuming your eating three square meals a day. Meal plan F which is unlimited meals per week is 11,138$ or 1392.25$ monthly.



It's nice you don't see it that way.  I'm being sarcastic.  I actually think you are out of your lane and should STFU.  Just being honest.  University has nothing to do with this and isn't used as a basis of 'anything' in the equation.

What IS part of the equation is, for example, taking a 30 year old male, with a wife and 3 kids and a mortgage into the CF, paying him at the lowest pay scale in the CF (Pte recruit), taking him away from his family and home for an extended period, and making him pay $500+ a month for mess hall food and it is entirely likely more than is being spent to feed remainder of his family.  Moreover, it is the reasoning behind it and the change from 'the way it was before' for an extremely long time that leaves some of us frowning at this kind of 'policy change'.

Before you start criticizing CF policy too much, maybe think about waiting until you're at least thru the recruiting process.   :


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Nov 2014)

Mess halls are, essentially, a restaurant, albeit with a limited menu.

What do you think you'd spend a month if you ate 3 X day, 7 days a week in a restaurant?


----------



## TCM621 (23 Nov 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Mess halls are, essentially, a restaurant, albeit with a limited menu.
> 
> What do you think you'd spend a month if you ate 3 X day, 7 days a week in a restaurant?


If I have a problem with the food at s restaurant, I complain and it gets fixed.  If I complain in a mess hall, I get yelled at by a sgt. They are not the same. It is more akin to prison food (in process if not quality). Prisoners eat for free. Just saying. [emoji6] 

I would pay 600 dollars a month to eat at a CF restaurant every day where I ordered off a menu and had my food cooked to order.  Instead, I'll walk into a mess hall see 3 choices I don't like and have to decide if I want to eat food I don't like or order pizza paying twice for the same meal.

I would prefer a debit system.  if you swipe your card you are charged what ever that meal works out to. If you don't want to eat there you aren't charged.


----------



## armyvern (23 Nov 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> If I have a problem with the food at s restaurant, I complain and it gets fixed.  If I complain in a mess hall, I get yelled at by a sgt. They are not the same. It is more akin to prison food (in process if not quality). Prisoners eat for free. Just saying. [emoji6]
> 
> I would pay 600 dollars a month to eat at a CF restaurant every day where I ordered off a menu and had my food cooked to order.  Instead, I'll walk into a mess hall see 3 choices I don't like and have to decide if I want to eat food I don't like or order pizza paying twice for the same meal.
> 
> I would prefer a debit system.  if you swipe your card you are charged what ever that meal works out to. If you don't want to eat there you aren't charged.



You answered your complaint in your own post.  Prisoners do not eat for free.  We taxpayers pay for it and they cost us a fortune.  They have even less 'choice' than we do.



> *I would pay 600 dollars a month to eat at a CF restaurant every day where I ordered off a menu and had my food cooked to order. *



Yep; and you'd pay 2 grand a month minimum to do that in a restaurant.  Guess you're getting it cheaply comparatively speaking then.  Less choices, but far less cost too...



> I would prefer a debit system.  if you swipe your card you are charged what ever that meal works out to. If you don't want to eat there you aren't charged.



And in my near-decade on this site, the reasons why the above is not feasible in the CAF have been addressed upteen times.  The Mess has to prep and order food in as if you ARE going to show up to eat.  They have to have the staff there to cook just in case you show up (and those staff have to get paid even if you don't show up). Two people swipe on Monday lunch, so they cut down the food to 50 or so people based on swipes .... Thursday all 500 of you show up and the whining begins, "what do you mean you don't have any food left/not enough to feed us all.  You damn well should, WE have swipe cards!"  You'd be on here posting a ranty whine in a heartbeat.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Nov 2014)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You answered your complaint in your own post.  Prisoners do not eat for free.  We taxpayers pay for it and they cost us a fortune.  They have even less 'choice' than we do.



Oh Vern,....if only that were true.   Just because I shouldn't use specific numbers I'll go with percentage, at least 20% of them in my facility have special diets that range from vegetarian, no pork, gluten-free, high protein, not to mention how many come in as a *cough* diabetic so they're entitled to more food.

Tangent over.....


----------



## armyvern (23 Nov 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Oh Vern,....if only that were true.   Just because I shouldn't use specific numbers I'll go with percentage, at least 20% of them in my facility have special diets that range from vegetarian, no pork, gluten-free, high protein, not to mention how many come in as a *cough* diabetic so they're entitled to more food.
> 
> Tangent over.....



Oh; those must be the prisoners that eat for free then.


----------



## KerryBlue (23 Nov 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> It's nice you don't see it that way.  I'm being sarcastic.  I actually think you are out of your lane and should STFU.  Just being honest.  University has nothing to do with this and isn't used as a basis of 'anything' in the equation.
> 
> Before you start criticizing CF policy too much, maybe think about waiting until you're at least thru the recruiting process.   :




Never in my post was I criticizing polices I have no clue about. All I did was provide an example that for young Pte's with no family, it is cheaper to live in the CF then it is to live on residence at university. I understand your point about someone with a family having a harder time but that was not the point of my post. I apologize for posting outside my lanes, but that was not my intention. Simply providing an example of what something I perceived to be similar as CF R&Q would cost outside the CF world.


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## OldSolduer (23 Nov 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> If I have a problem with the food at s restaurant, I complain and it gets fixed.  If I complain in a mess hall, I get yelled at by a sgt. They are not the same. It is more akin to prison food (in process if not quality). Prisoners eat for free. Just saying. [emoji6]
> 
> I would pay 600 dollars a month to eat at a CF restaurant every day where I ordered off a menu and had my food cooked to order.  Instead, I'll walk into a mess hall see 3 choices I don't like and have to decide if I want to eat food I don't like or order pizza paying twice for the same meal.
> 
> I would prefer a debit system.  if you swipe your card you are charged what ever that meal works out to. If you don't want to eat there you aren't charged.



I work in a prison and the food from a mess hall is by far superior. As prison employees we have no choice. You eat what's served or your bring your own. 
And it's not free, as Vern has eloquently stated.


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## TCM621 (23 Nov 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I work in a prison and the food from a mess hall is by far superior. As prison employees we have no choice. You eat what's served or your bring your own.
> And it's not free, as Vern has eloquently stated.


I wasn't comparing quality. It is the institutional nature of the food. The main point is that comparing the mess to a restaurant is an apple to oranges comparison yet it always the one that is brought up.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Nov 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I work in a prison and the food from a mess hall is by far superior. As prison employees we have no choice. You eat what's served or your bring your own.
> And it's not free, as Vern has eloquently stated.


Ah Jim,...you need to come work a few weeks at my little Shangri-La place....hehehhehehee


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## armyvern (23 Nov 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> I wasn't comparing quality. It is the institutional nature of the food. The main point is that comparing the mess to a restaurant is an apple to oranges comparison yet it always the one that is brought up.



Funny that you brought up the old, "if I could choose from a menu and have it cooked to order, then I'd pay 600 bucks" or such comments to that effect.

YOU compared it to a restaurant --- I'm merely pointing out the difference in pricing between your 600 and 2 grand a month to have same in a restaurant.  Given your "choose from a menu and have it cooked to order" ... it sure seems like YOU expect restaurant quality and service for 1/4 of the price.


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## George Wallace (23 Nov 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> I wasn't comparing quality. It is the institutional nature of the food. The main point is that comparing the mess to a restaurant is an apple to oranges comparison yet it always the one that is brought up.



Actually, no.  It is not comparing apples and oranges.  There are many restaurants that run Buffets alone or along with table service.  Then again, what would one spend daily eating three 'decent' (not junk) meals in Food Courts?  I am sure the costs would add up.


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## OldSolduer (23 Nov 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Oh Vern,....if only that were true.   Just because I shouldn't use specific numbers I'll go with percentage, at least 20% of them in my facility have special diets that range from vegetarian, no pork, gluten-free, high protein, not to mention how many come in as a *cough* diabetic so they're entitled to more food.
> 
> Tangent over.....



Same issues here. The food really is crap though.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Nov 2014)

Not at my place........extremely good.
Hey,...it's 'treatment'. ;D


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## TCM621 (23 Nov 2014)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Funny that you brought up the old, "if I could choose from a menu and have it cooked to order, then I'd pay 600 bucks" or such comments to that effect.
> 
> YOU compared it to a restaurant --- I'm merely pointing out the difference in pricing between your 600 and 2 grand a month to have same in a restaurant.  Given your "choose from a menu and have it cooked to order" ... it sure seems like YOU expect restaurant quality and service for 1/4 of the price.


I was responding to a restaurant comparison. When people say 600 is cheap compared to a restaurant, I say mess food can't compare to a full menu, cooked to order food, the right to complain about quality and service, etc. Quality is a whole different argument.  I have had some great mess food and mess food I wouldn't feed to my dogs. Most recently I watched a mess go from damn near un-eatable to pretty darn decent when a new galley I/C was posted in. I also know that there are some fantastically talented CAF cooks out there. So I want to make clear, I am not disparaging the effort of the Cook trade.

The problem is that forcing someone to spend more than what they may spend in groceries, for food over which they have no say in the choice, quality or service of, particularly when they are supporting a family somewhere else is ridiculous. 

That is not to say that their haven't been some improvements along those lines. Lunch time sandwich lines have been a staple for years now and many mess offer some type of A la carte menu such as a pasta bar or pizza slices. These options make the problem of only being able to make a limited number of entrees a little less of an issue by offering an easy option for choice. More invovation along this line would be great. 

Also service is a huge thing. Friendly kitchen staff go a long way to making mess eating enjoyable. It's institutional food and there is only so much you can do to improve that. But when you are getting your slightly over cooked lasagna from a guy with a smile on his face you don't care so much. When the lady behind the counter attempt to give you a steak that is close to the way you like it, you appreciate it. 

OK I'm all over the place.  Time to stop rambling.


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## Tibbson (7 Jan 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> Seeing as they have done away with Separation Expense, the only thing that you will get is "Free Quarters" but you will still have to pay for Rations.



If they have done away with separation expense then why do I have this claim I submit each month while I am at my new posting whille my family remained behind and we wait to try to sell our home?  And no, I'm not on IR, it clearly says separation expenses and the pay office even advanced me the money.  That starts in March for me.  Am I getting these 6 months of separation expenses through Brookfield or did they not actually do away with it as you noted?  Now I'm confused.


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## Madjai (25 Jan 2015)

They definitely still have SE.  I'm on course now and the BOR gave me the form that says, right at the top, "Separation Expense", so I don't have to pay for my quarters while my service spouse and primary residence is elsewhere.


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Jan 2015)

So you are going to receive the SE $ allowance, or is it just the form you still fill out so you don't pay for rations? There is a difference.


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## TCM621 (25 Jan 2015)

Madjai said:
			
		

> They definitely still have SE.  I'm on course now and the BOR gave me the form that says, right at the top, "Separation Expense", so I don't have to pay for my quarters while my service spouse and primary residence is elsewhere.


SE now only entitles you to quarters at public expense. It used to include rations and daily incidentals. It was a tough blow to lose 500 dollars a month in incidentals and gain a 500 dollar bill for rations. The kicker was that the ones who could choose to go on IR still got a pretty good deal as they could delink rations and in many cases live on  the economy in an apartment. The ones that had no choice, ie privates and Jr officers in the training system, had to pay rations and stay in (normally) shared accommodations.


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## Madjai (5 Feb 2015)

The worst part is all the OT's (previously Reg Force) are getting full TD.  Kind of a slap in the face.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Feb 2015)

Madjai said:
			
		

> The worst part is all the OT's (previously Reg Force) are getting full TD.  Kind of a slap in the face.



Why? They've already been there and got the T shirt. They are granted the TD rights under Treasury Board rules. If you haven't quite figured it out yet, the military is NOT an equal opportunity employer. I would surmise though, that if down the road, you decide to OT, you'll have an epiphany and it will all become clear when you're on full TD yourself


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Feb 2015)

Madjai said:
			
		

> The worst part is all the OT's (previously Reg Force) are getting full TD.  Kind of a slap in the face.



If they are OTs they've reached career status, are posted to a unit vice TE, etc.  That has benefits.


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## jbird747 (18 Nov 2015)

Hey all,

I am a Reg Force VOT, 14+ years in, maintain a residence, married with two kids.  I am ATTACH POSTED to Kingston from Halifax for seven months for training.  

Am I entitled to R&Q at public expense like the above posts say?  I've looked everywhere, and asked a few clerks and no one seems to know for sure.  If someone could provide me with a reference, that'd be awesome.

Thanks


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## DAA (18 Nov 2015)

jbird747 said:
			
		

> Hey all,
> 
> I am a Reg Force VOT, 14+ years in, maintain a residence, married with two kids.  I am ATTACH POSTED to Kingston from Halifax for seven months for training.
> 
> ...



You should be administered no differently than someone who is on TD.   See CFTDTI Chap 3, Art 3.01.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/temp-duty-travel-instructions.page


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## tree hugger (18 Nov 2015)

From my experience, several years old now, I didn't get anything on my attached postings.  I was single and had no dependents at the time though.
Hope you can get something....  

I also thought that they couldn't "attach post" someone for more that 6mo. at a time...


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## Eye In The Sky (19 Nov 2015)

IIRC they can AP or TD  you for up to 364 days continuous.


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## armyvern (6 Dec 2015)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> SE now only entitles you to quarters at public expense. It used to include rations and daily incidentals. It was a tough blow to lose 500 dollars a month in incidentals and gain a 500 dollar bill for rations. The kicker was that the ones who could choose to go on IR still got a pretty good deal as they could delink rations and in many cases live on  the economy in an apartment. The ones that had no choice, ie privates and Jr officers in the training system, had to pay rations and stay in (normally) shared accommodations.



Many of us IR folks do not "choose" to be so.  Many of us are MSCs.  Many are also Snr NCOs or Snr Officers who "choose" to be IR, but are also those who are subject to postings to 2 year positions.  Entirely different sets of circumstances at play between them and Jnr NCOs or Jnr Officers. Why the constant hit (ie: your "kicker") against them?  None of the Jnr Ranks' etc are subject to packing up their families and moving due to service requirements every 2 years (can you just imagine the bitching about that!).  In many cases regarding those "senior" types, it's actually cheaper for the CAF to move them around IR rather than pay full-costs moves and real estate fees every 22 months or so.  I'm going into year 8 straight of IR - none of it by "choice" and even though I'm delinked, believe you me, it costs me a fortune out of my own pocket to do my job these days.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Dec 2015)

In all seriousness and if it's not too personal, may I ask what costs you are referring to?


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## jollyjacktar (6 Dec 2015)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Many of us IR folks do not "choose" to be so.  Many of us are MSCs.  Many are also Snr NCOs or Snr Officers who "choose" to be IR, but are also those who are subject to postings to 2 year positions.  Entirely different sets of circumstances at play between them and Jnr NCOs or Jnr Officers. Why the constant hit (ie: your "kicker") against them?  None of the Jnr Ranks' etc are subject to packing up their families and moving due to service requirements every 2 years (can you just imagine the bitching about that!).  In many cases regarding those "senior" types, it's actually cheaper for the CAF to move them around IR rather than pay full-costs moves and real estate fees every 22 months or so.  I'm going into year 8 straight of IR - none of it by "choice" and even though I'm delinked, believe you me, it costs me a fortune out of my own pocket to do my job these days.



 :goodpost:

Yes, it costs me to be here on IR too.  



			
				Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> In all seriousness and if it's not too personal, may I ask what costs you are referring to?



Simple, I have a family back home that I am supporting just as much as I did when I was posted there.  Now I have the additional costs of taking care of myself here too, a roof over my head excepted.  It all adds up.


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## armyvern (6 Dec 2015)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> In all seriousness and if it's not too personal, may I ask what costs you are referring to?



This could take me a while to type:

Background:  I was in K-Town when my svc spouse was posted from Montreal to CJOC HQ (NCR).  As he is RCD, I am Sup, and Petawawa and/or Ottawa was in our futures, we bought a home in Arnprior so that we could actually live together for a change should NCR/Pet happen for us.  I was posted to SP posn out West.  The irony - how'd we make out?  Our home in Arnprior is considered to be within the designated geographical boundaries for Ottawa.

*Food *- Hubby is now buying for one as am I.  It should be a well known factoid that it costs more to buy food for one than being able to buy in "family size or bulk".  Granted, the hubby can still buy this way, break it down and utilize freezer.  I am in an IR quarters with a small beer fridge and a freezer that barely holds a single ice cube tray ... I have no food prep area or facilities like a stove, so can only buy day-to-day.  That costs us a small fortune (and whoever the officer was that wrote the paper determining that taking away food benefits would result in zero cost increase to members on IR etc should ensure he never meets me face to face).

*TD* - My current position requires me to travel to the NCR.  My husband happens to still be posted to the NCR. Because he is posted to the NCR, I am entitled to ZERO TD benefits when I am in Ottawa to conduct business.  I am to live in my residence, am not entitled to meals or to travel expenses.  Treasury Board says I can use my "POMV" or public transit while at my home and am therfore not entitled to travel.  There is NO public transport from Arnprior to Ottawa.  My husband is a shiftworker and therfore requires his POMV to do his job for the CAF at irregular hours.  MY POMV (the one that I am supposed to use while in Ottawa according to the TB) is out West!  Therefore, I get to incur transport costs out of my own pocket to do my damn job while in Ottawa. That's a $100.00 cab ride each way or $200.00 per day. Or rent a car for the entire time I'm there (which ends up being cheaper). Sometimes, I am also required to attend activity in Ottawa at night after supper. So, work for the day, go home and eat supper then return after supper for night function, but because I am expected to "take meals at my primary residence", it is virtually impossible to do so.  Even if I had $400.00 to spend out of my own pocket for taxis that day (in in the morning, home for supper, back in for night, then back home again afterwards), the time on the clock doesn't allow for that. By the time we're done at 4, there is no way in hell to cab it to Arnprior, eat, then make it back in time for 1800hrs. So, I remain in town and fork out of my own pocket to eat at whatever restaurant the boys on TD are getting paid to eat at that day.

*PLD* - Because my primary residence is in Ontario at a non-PLD location, I am not entilted to PLD - or even a portion thereof - even though the location I am at currently recieves PLD.  My provincial taxes are higher than theirs and my primary residential costs are same.  Besides residence, I incur every other cost out here at the same rate or higher than them (food costs, fuel costs, federal and provincial taxes costs, entertainment costs etc etc etc), yet I get no portion of PLD to help with off-setting like they do.

*Daily Expenses* - We get no portion of our phone/internet etc paid for yet we must maintain 2 sets of this, one at our IR location and 1 at our primary residence location in order to be able to engage in basic communication with our spouse.  In the case of not being seperated by choice, in every other instance troops are afforded the "phone call home per week at Crown expense" etc (ie:  Service Requirements send you on tour so you are reimbursed costs for basic comms with your family.  Same goes for trips home to see your loved one that you are "forced to be away from" - on tour you get a trip every 6 months.  Us MSCs get one per year despite also being "forced to be seperated".

That's just the big ones, the irritating ones and the utter-bullshit ones that we now pay for whether we are here by "choice" or not.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Dec 2015)

Seems to me there is a whole bucket full of fucktardedness towards the svc members in that post AV.  

Maybe some of the dumbasses who come up with this stuff are the ones who should be made to live IR for a period of time to experience their own stupidity.


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## Jay4th (7 Dec 2015)

Geez ArmyVern, 
At what point do you do a periodic re-evaluation of your decision to stay in the CAF.  It must be difficult to keep letting the dice come up "Them" rather than "Us"
I applaud you and your husband for your sevice mindset but where do you draw the line?
My wife and I are a Married Service Couple also.  
I did 2yrs IR in Wainwright while my wife stayed at her Regiment in Edmonton.
I then did a year at home in Edmonton at my home BN.
Then I was offered a great 2 yr Position at College Militaire Royale Saint Jean where I am right now. (this really was our choice this time.)
If I am lucky enough to return to BN in Edmonton after this it will likely be time for her to get posted to a school in Wainwright or Gagetown. 
At that time we will seriously have to re-evaluate my continuing past 25yrs.


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## armyvern (7 Dec 2015)

Jay4th said:
			
		

> Geez ArmyVern,
> At what point do you do a periodic re-evaluation of your decision to stay in the CAF.  It must be difficult to keep letting the dice come up "Them" rather than "Us"
> I applaud you and your husband for your sevice mindset but where do you draw the line?
> My wife and I are a Married Service Couple also.
> ...



I'm currently in Edmonton, but heading your way in January for a bit of time being schooled at CMR.  Perhaps we can do beers.

I have 3 to do to hit 30 TI ... too close to call it quits now.


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## Jay4th (8 Dec 2015)

I will see you when you get here then.


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## cmdj1982 (14 Jan 2016)

Hey all. Just wondering if anyone currently in (or recently graduated) from ROTP has any idea of the current deduction off of pay for R&Q during their stay at RMC? I have searched high and low and gotten some old figures here, but can't find any indication past posts from 2013...


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## George Wallace (14 Jan 2016)

cmdj1982 said:
			
		

> Just wondering if anyone currently in or recently graduated) from ROTP has any idea the current deduction off of pay for R&Q during the stay at RMC? I have searched high and low and gotten some old figures here, but can't find any indication past posts from 2013...



As you are posting from a DWAN computer, can you not just turn around and ask your RMS staff for the latest figures?


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## mariomike (14 Jan 2016)

cmdj1982 said:
			
		

> Just wondering if anyone currently in (or recently graduated) from ROTP has any idea of the current deduction off of pay for R&Q during their stay at RMC?



See also,

Going rate for R&Q?


			
				cmdj1982 said:
			
		

> Just wondering if anyone currently in or recently graduated) from ROTP has any idea the current deduction off of pay for R&Q during the stay at RMC?


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## CountDC (14 Jan 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As you are posting from a DWAN computer, can you not just turn around and ask your RMS staff for the latest figures?



Perhaps the RMS staff are not right there, not all computers are located with us.  Or perhap the RMS staff told him it was a good learning opp and look it up himself.  ;D  I will stop with those ones.


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## secondchance (14 Jun 2016)

I know married or common law people don't pay for the quarters .
But how is situation with single parent who has child?
My child will continue to live at the same place and I will pay for rent. 
Do I have to pay my quarters during my training ?


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## Dan99 (20 Jun 2016)

Good morning, 

I'm going to Borden in July and will be on PAT til I get coursed and I was talking to a buddy of mine and he informed me that since I own a house in Toronto and am paying mortgage and I'm not being "posted" to Borden and will have to live in the shacks, i would be waived from paying quarters and rations til I'm qualified. Can any RMS clerks or someone who has been in similar situations shed some light on this. 

Thanks.


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## Jayjaycf (20 Jun 2016)

You wont likely have to pay quarter but I am pretty sure you will pay for ration, afaik theres no way for people who arent qualified in their trade to not pay for the food.


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## Leeworthy (21 Jun 2016)

I'm here in Borden now. You will have to pay rations for sure. Yeah cannot separate from rations when you are on an initial trades course. If y are attach posted then you can. The Only thing we can have taken off is you quarters. Which is 98 a month. Rations are 526 I believe a month.


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## BorisK (23 Aug 2016)

Would someone be able to point me towards information about Rations options for CFB Edmonton?  I'm headed there
in November and was curious what my options / prices are for full, partial, etc.  

While I'm at it, are the various price options for singles quarters (shacks) or is it all one price and one style of room?

Best regards,


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## Titicboom (30 Sep 2016)

Moved here to as not make a new thread.

Greetings,

So when someone starts as an AC Op. Off they go to Basic, Then they get posted to an Air base right away to do the Air Force intro and they do some OJT. They get prepared for the exam that they must get 90%.

Now the the question is, When do they chose the base or is it just assigned and where do they do those few days of Air Force introduction.

I understand QL3's are normally run three times a year and are 66 training days so unless there is a wait list for each course I cannot see a lot of PAT platoon time for a new person coming in.

I know the schooling is at NAVCAN and they have some pretty swank digs while they are there and it is a great facility.  After CFSACSO do they normally go back to the base they did their original OJT or is a new posting assigned.

Thank you


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## edlabonte (30 Sep 2016)

It seems like in recent years wait times have been getting longer.  I knew guys that did 3 weeks of ojt and some are doing 3 months or more of OJT.  That time is spend either studying for the QL3 pre-course exam or doing whatever task comes up much like any other person on BTL.  

I joined as a recruit school by-pass so i pretty much got to pick my location for OJT.  It is very common for guys to be sent from St. Jean strait to North Bay ON.  Generally speaking, "PAT Platoon" doesn't exist in our trade.  If you are at a Wing for OJT you will be on BTL but attached and reporting to the ATC unit.  I can't speak for how North Bay does things because i haven't been there.  If there is a specific location a member wants for OJT then they should bring it up as early as possible either at CFRC or while on BMQ.  

Now a days the intro Air Force course, Basic Air Environmental Qualification (BAEQ) is taught at CFSACO by staff from RCAF Academy (CFB Borden) the week before QL3 officially starts.

Once QL3 is done, regardless of where you have been posted, you will return to where you did OJT.  You usually have to clear out of that base (if you are posted away) and/or get your move process started.  You don't always get posted back to where you did OJT.  Many members ask to go back because they build rapport or other relationships while on OJT.  You're posting USUALLY comes out of one of your 3 posting preferences while on QL3 as long as the needs of the trade can be satisfied.  

As far as accommodation at the Nav Center, a double bed, cable tv, high speed internet (LAN not WIFI), desk, dresser, 4 pc en suite bathroom, maid service twice a week really help keep the stress levels down.  Be prepared to shell out $50 a month for a fridge rental #airforceproblems   

PM me for any other questions.


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## Titicboom (1 Oct 2016)

Thank you once again for the excellent information.

I guess He will have to ask at Recruiting or during his interview indicate it and once again watch for an opportunity at basic. I Think he likes the idea of Cold Lake as it might provide the most variety.

Cheers.


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## BrewsKampbell (29 Mar 2017)

I re-enrolled last month, own a house in the Edmonton area and currently posted to Wainwright on BTL. I'm not authorized a move until I complete QL3 in my new trade, which can be upwards of 1-1.5 years due to few courses being run in my small trade. My Chief Clerk had to phone the recruiting centre to find out my entitlement but is telling me I'm only eligible to have my room in the barracks paid for 6 months on enrollment.

I was under the impression that while maintaining a principle residence a member would not be charged quarters. I mentioned this to him but was told the 6 months was all that would be covered according to the recruiting centre.

I know there are a few guru's here, is this correct? Where would I find this information?

EDIT: I do have a GF living there but in the eyes of the CF I am single. I know married benefits do make a difference but I'm still on the hook for a mortgage and barracks are expensive if you're not a private 

Cheers.


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## coolstorybro (19 May 2017)

Hello,

Could someone please give me an idea on costs of living on base for say a small bachelor as well as cost of food, I will be most likely needing the cheapest option as I will have to still pay for my mortgage in my home town as I do not want to sell as my girlfriend will still be living there .. hoping some of you could shed some light on some costs and maybe some options I may have.

Thank you


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## Loachman (19 May 2017)

Welcome to Army.ca, coolstorybro

As you could see from the links that mariomike kindly provided earlier, there is much information here on this Site already. You just have to go and look for it, rather than asking questions that have already been asked and answered before.

This will reduce clutter on the Site, make life easier for others doing searches, reduce workload on the DS who strive to keep everything organized as much as possible, save others from doing work that you can do yourself (everybody's time is valuable), and increase your knowledge - by reading through pertinent existing threads, you will likely find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.

Start reading the stickied threads at the top of each subforum. In many cases (the "Common" threads), there are links to the more popular threads.

If, after an honest effort, you cannot find an answer, then feel free to ask, preferably in the appropriate thread. We are a helpful bunch, but we expect people to do their own homework.

This Site does, after all, reflect attitudes found in the CF.

Happy reading...


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## Strike (19 May 2017)

Loachman - FYI The search function was wonky yesterday. May still be today.


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## gabzo (11 Jul 2017)

The page seems to not be able to be viewed. I searched and found this one and when I click the link it says it can't be found or I don't have access


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