# Food [and a little of everything else] at Stalwart Guardian 04



## rormson (29 Jul 2004)

I read with interest at the SG04 site some comments on the "questions answered" section about the use of IMPs versus fresh meals. I think that there was complaint about eating IMPs each day at SG03 and what could be done to improve this year. 

I am only a civilian but it pains me to think that the fed's can't provide a sufficient budget to the reserves for a least 1 fresh meal per day per person while on an ex. Federal civil servants had a $23 dinner allowance years ago when I worked for Env. Canada, not to mention additional allowances for breakfast and dinner. $23 is about what it costs for one whole day's worth of real rations in the field according to what I read. 

I'm sure that part of the training is to endure some toughness, including diet, and perhaps to use the IMPs that would otherwise expire - - but really, I think its unfortunate for the morale of our personnel if they have to eat IMPs for 7-8 days straight. I've never had one and I hear that the CF's are better than the US MRE's. Maybe this is not an issue at all?


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## Eowyn (29 Jul 2004)

It might not be a budgetary issue.  It could possibly be a logistical problem of hayboxing everyone or a lack of qualified cooks.


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## Mystix (29 Jul 2004)

I was told we'd get three fresh meals well out there. The rest would be IMP's.


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## portcullisguy (2 Aug 2004)

Three isn't enough.  From the first full day of the EX to the last full day, it's about 24 meals.  And only three will be "fresh" ... the site hasn't defined what they mean by that, either, but we can assume hayboxes.

Does that include the smoker at endex?  Probably not, so say four meals.

That's still a week's worth of IMPs.  The magic snack truck didn't visit us all that often, and when it did it was usually cleared out pretty quick.

We got lucky one night and our company arranged a pizza delivery, that was one of only two fresh meals last year (the other being the smoker).

I think this year I'm bringing my own camping stove, and a few tins of easy to cook food... wieners & beans, or chef boyardee ravioli or something.  I'll keep it in my follow-up kit, and every now and then raid it when the IMP's get to be too much.  That and a few packets of Kikkoman instant miso soup, and that's a feast compared to the rations, I think.

I think it was Napoleon who said an army marches on it's stomach.  Even Meaford's food makes a summer's training doable, but 8 solid days of IMPs really raises the suck factor.


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## MJP (2 Aug 2004)

It is only eight days...does it really matter that much?  I'd probably be more concerned with maximizing the value of the collective training rather than dwelling on a few days of rations.  Don't get me wrong I love fresh rats as much as the next person,but eight days is really nothing, especially considering you know in advance and are able to bring your own rats to supplement yourself.


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## rormson (3 Aug 2004)

I'm sorry to hear that you guys might need to bring your own canned food to the field. I think that things must be pretty bad If there are not enough cooks or logistics personnel in our military reserve to provide a fresh meal every other day or so to those training to serve our country.


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## AmmoTech90 (3 Aug 2004)

There is no requirement to bring your own canned food to the field.  Three IMPs a day will feed you.  Bringing your own food is a matter of personal comfort.  Try 70 days of IMPs with 1 BBQ thrown in there.  Just went through that when we hit the ground in Haiti.  Ichiban noodles were a hot commodity.  I believe that the troops in Kandahar went longer than that.


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## DOOG (3 Aug 2004)

RGO..
You said it..you're a civilian. You will never understand. Soldiers will bitch about everything, anything, anytime any way. Eight days on IMPs is not a great horrible assault on their rights. It is probably a matter of logistics and training time. IMPs are a lot easier to handle than fresh rats. Kitchen trailers (that's the "field kitchen thingee") require a couple of cooks, a couple of helpers, propane, refrigeration (like a big freekin truck, or a freezer that requires generated power) along with someone of the proper qualifications to set up the ration plan, transport the rations and look after all the waste garbage (bears like garbage).

Field exercises using a fresh ration plan are great practice for the guys that lug the food to the troops and the guys that cook it but they are also a time consuming test of your logistics tail. Remember that all the troops are not sleeping in tents right next to the kitchen. The food usually has to be taken to them. Sometime this may mean a road move of 20 or 30 kms (or more). The breakfats delivery guy has to 
set out at 0430 hrs to make it happen. Also, depending on the scenario, the tactical siuation may not allow for dealing with hot meals. 

Lastly, as to Reserve units not having the cooks..that is correct. Some brain child in Fort Fumble decided that the "Army Reserve Establishment" of each unit did not neccessarily have to have cooks included. Also, it isn't all that easy to get them trained  if you do actually recruit one. The system for training people in support trades is really more for training personnel to take call-outs at Reg Force units/bases than providing Reserve units with cooks or mechanics. 

However, after 8 or 9 days, I can see the need for a pizza run.

Doog


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## rormson (3 Aug 2004)

Interesting points Doog - thanks. 

As you note, it is hard for us civvies to understand the true picture of the CF and reasons for certain decisons- - all we read about is chronic underfunding and lack of equipment - - unfortunately some of the practical aspects don't get reported. Anyway, Kudos to all you guys for putting on a uniform and have a good ex regardless of what you may or may not have to choke down for rations.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Aug 2004)

8 days of rations? thats bullshit, I'm not going on THAT ex!
 ;D

If enough people complain about not having fresh rations the troops will end up getting fresh rations alright, and they might end up marching 10Kms for their meals.

Wasn't it one of the tours to Somalia that our guys spent 6 months on IMPs?

Everyone likes fresh food but being on one or two of these exercises (7) i can tell you I'd rather eat rations for 8 days. Now heres why;

Rations- you get handed the food, mix and match the meals to what everyone likes, when meal time comes you cook up your food with your buddies and eat it. Done. You snack on beef jerky and granola bars. If your inclined to (like i often am) you can pull out a little stove and cook something extra. No dicking around. It's very personal so to speak. Your not being watched by high ranking officers and you can relax a little and be comfortable.

Fresh Rats- Unless it's dropped off to you, you have to march to an assembly area where 3 companies will be organized into   groups then you have to wait until each company files through the meal line. Theres no sleeping because it looks bad in front of the press that always shows up. Theres no cooking your own food (sometimes) because "the army is feeding you" your not allowed to make it seem other wise.   An undisciplined platoon will leave garbage lying around and your platoon will be tasked with doing a garbage sweep. 3/4Th's of the way through the meal theres a good chance they will run out of something because someone didn't indent for enough food.   All of a sudden the fresh meal you marched 6 Kms for, waiting around for an hour, turns into 2 hard boiled eggs and a piece of bread.   Hungry? Tough luck, since you got fresh rats there was no IMPs ordered for you. Then the bitching starts about how private so and so doesn't feel like he got enough food and smart mouth spends the rest of the exercise making sure everyone knows that he's hungry.   Stand back, he's going to put a memo into brigade headquarters.

These big meals are often done non-tactical. Big groups of soldiers sitting around,   then making a mad dash for the canteen queen when the truck shows up.   I can't stand exercises that flop from tactical to untactical to tactical again.


RGO, don't say your "only a civilian"   Your a civilian who is seemingly interested in the military in a supportive way and you want us soldiers to get better food.   When a civilian wants something better for the army i think thats pretty cool.


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## MJP (3 Aug 2004)

> These big meals are often done non-tactical. Big groups of soldiers sitting around,  then making a mad dash for the canteen queen when the truck shows up.  I can't stand exercises that flop from tactical to untactical to tactical again.



I like the term Half-tical.


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## greydak (4 Aug 2004)

I don't mind fresh food, but it's best for a range or something like that. I f we only do week long Ex's once ot twice a year we should make them as real a we can. Smokers are always awsome.
(_It's funny how on the warning order, they stress "DRY EX" but come the smoker things get wet_)


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## Scott (4 Aug 2004)

By fresh food I am assuming that we are talking about hayboxes? Good God Almighty, I will kiss the bare arse of Freddy Chef himself before I touch another haybox meal!

"Here's your Swiss Steak, boiled potato and mixed veg plate that's been steaming and re-steaming as it bounced along the backroads of Gagetown...Enjoy!" No thanks. Freddy's sure do bung a fella up, but one good Big Mac after the Ex and you're right as rain!!

Never mind if this post is out of the ordinary for me, the Doc gave me some Percocet....nuff said.

Cheers


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## meni0n (4 Aug 2004)

I prefer box lunches to hay boxes.


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## Scott (4 Aug 2004)

The box lunches that used to come out of Aldershot were the best I ever had, Gagetown's........sucked. Don't know what Aldershot is like for messing now since the changes.....


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## Devlin (2 Sep 2004)

Not sure how many of you got to witness it but the American's who were playing OPFOR were up at Normandy Court for more than a few fresh meals. Personally I got fresh stuff twice in the field during the EX this year. It was nice to get it but IMP's are a lot more convienent for sure. Though when I went up top to EXCON (dirty word) for a couple of days they had some IMP's I had never seen before like (Cheese Tortellini, Navarin - lamb stew apparently, Lasagna -which was quite good and some others I can't recall)


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## Lost_Warrior (2 Sep 2004)

Personally, I don't mind IMP's.   Food is food.   I dont care how it tastes as long as it helps me get thre job done.    

I was on 7 days of IMP's during my SQ FTX.   I lost 14 pounds.      I was tired and hungry and all that other stuff.       

My message to you all is to suck it up and soldier on.   You jouned the "Canadian Mimitary"

One of the most professional and well trained fighting forces in the world.    Start to act like it.

If Allah Jihad Mohamed bombs your cities school or someo other major area, and you have to spend time in the field on security, suck this shit up....it doesn't get any better...

Otherwise join the Cadets again....they get to play soldier with all the added benefits...


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## Jarnhamar (2 Sep 2004)

> My message to you all is to suck it up and soldier on.   You jouned the "Canadian Mimitary"
> 
> One of the most professional and well trained fighting forces in the world.    Start to act like it.



Looks like my balls have officially been busted.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Sep 2004)

Quote from "lost warrior"

My message to you all is to suck it up and soldier on.   You jouned the "Canadian Mimitary"

One of the most professional and well trained fighting forces in the world.    Start to act like it

How, by coming into an otherwise intelligent thread and anonymously spouting off  some "bigman" diatribe?


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## AlphaCharlie (2 Sep 2004)

1. IMPs are expensive, like $30 a meal...

2. I was eating IMPs for 11 days, with maybe 4-6 fresh meals total. I started to really like having lasagna, cheeze tortillini with meat sauce, sliced peaches, salmon (mmmm)... many of the rations are quite good (with the exception of all breakfast rats... ewww).


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## Lost_Warrior (2 Sep 2004)

> How, by coming into an otherwise intelligent thread and anonymously spouting off  some "bigman" diatribe?



No.  By quitting the complaining and taking it.

It's the army for christ sakes.  I'm really tired of people going ape shit the minute they get the least bit uncomfortable.   It has nothing to do with acting "bigman" and everything to do with the profession you chose.   Remember.  You volunteered for this.  If you don't like it, quit.   My heart is not bleeding for you..


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## Jarnhamar (2 Sep 2004)

I don't really see anyone asking you to feel sorry for them

I do agree with you in that today soldiers seem to do a lot of whining and complaining.   They can't go to the field because they have something to do.   They can't eat IMPs because it makes them sick or they dont have ones they like. They can't go on marches because they show up for a tasking on day 1 with a no pt sick chit. Their allergic to metal or the sun.

I agree people vvolunteer this and if they don't like it they should hit the road. Though,   because its volunteer that   doesnt mean soldiers should be treated like shit and like it.

As for complaining you kinda just put yourself in a sticky situation because i'm sure the minute you complain about something from now on people are going to turn around and say


> Remember.   You volunteered for this.   If you don't like it, quit.     My heart is not bleeding for you..


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## Lost_Warrior (2 Sep 2004)

> Though,  because its volenteer that  doesnt mean soldiers should be treated like crap and like it.



Noone ever said they should be treated like crap and like it.   IMP's are an important part of a soldiers kit.  It keeps them alive in the field.  They don't have to love it, but they don't have to complain about it all the time either.    Being given 3 IMP's a day should be considered a treat than being treated like crap.  Most WW2, Nam and Korean soldiers sometimes went days without food or water.




> As for complaining you kinda just put yourself in a sticky situation because i'm sure the minute you complain about something from now on people are going to turn around and say



Last time I complained about anything was while I was in Valcartier.  My boots were soaked from 5 days of rain, and I started to get trench foot.  What did I do?  I looked at my watch and saw only 12 hours left in the FTX, I picked up my rifle, doused it in CLP, and soldiered on....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Sep 2004)

...and if that exercise was 12 more days?....

EDIT. and since you brought up about the guys in WW2 etc....just what do you think the charge would be if you knew you were getting trenchfoot and did nothing to rectify it?


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## Jarnhamar (2 Sep 2004)

You mean you put your rifle down?! 

Blasphemy


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## RCA (2 Sep 2004)

The question would be, were the troops on IMPs because someone was too lazy to have a meal plan. Part of any military planning, whether peace or war is meal planning. It is part of logistics and just as important as water, fuel and ammunition. As much effort must be made to supply a hot meal (haybox/field kitchen) whenever or wherever possible. It is a morale boost. Read the stories in WWII where troops received hot meals. Even haybox meals must be done tactical as that is also part of the training. IMPs should be last resort, not first. Its known as looking after your troops.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Sep 2004)

RCA,
I totally agree with you, but, I do believe that those of us wise enough to be Artillery are a bit spoiled as the gun positions are a lot more condensed population-wise and its not like after firing a round or two that noise is a concern.
I remember being in the OP in Norway and the big joke on the gun-line was "what,.. steak,.... again?"
And I was up front eating rations[and occaionally, maybe a restarant or two,also]


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## RCA (2 Sep 2004)

Bruce

 I hear you. OPs always carry IMPs. But then again, a good BK/BSM, will at least try and get a hot meal up. Sometimes it can't be done.

Have to admit that it easier for us Gunners, as the field kitchen is part of the Battery.


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## figure_11 (3 Sep 2004)

Now that we're on the topic of IMPs...

Who agrees with me that the ham steak in mustard sauce is the worst meal on the menu?


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## McInnes (3 Sep 2004)

it's not that bad. i had it four times in a row on BMQ. However, that damn baked cherry dessert should be cut from the team. I havn't figured out what I can use it for yet...
Lasagna is the best I've found.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Sep 2004)

Regarding Stalwart Guardian;

Does anyone have any input on how it went?  Be it food, training or whatever?

As far as the airborne coy went I heard one platoon was treated like gold while the other platoon was treated like the ugly girl at a dance.


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## 48Highlander (3 Sep 2004)

I thought it was junk.  The company size raid turned into a massive circular stroll through the woods.  The live-fire blocking op was fairly good training, but nothing spectecular.  And the FIBUA portion turned into a slaughter due to poor leadership and comms.  The BBQ and pizza was nice though.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Sep 2004)

How about the meals?
In 2002 i remember they never ordered enough food so we got like half a sassauge and a piece of bread for breakfast. oh and an egg.


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## 48Highlander (3 Sep 2004)

Some of the troops took to calling SG 2003 "Camp Aushwitz" due to the fact that for the first 48 hours we had no food at all, but lots of showers.  (and please don't flame me for the politically incorrect joke, I'm just the messenger).  SG 2004 was actually good as far as food went.  IMP's the whole time, except for 2 or 3 haybox breakfasts, but the rations were there on time and in the right quantities, so I don't think you'll hear too many complaints.


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## Michael Dorosh (3 Sep 2004)

Lost_Warrior said:
			
		

> Being given 3 IMP's a day should be considered a treat than being treated like crap.   Most WW2, Nam and Korean soldiers sometimes went days without food or water.



No, no, no, not even close.  Even the Germans in Stalingrad at the end had _some_ food and water, ditto the American and Filipino garrison on Bataan. Canadian soldiers, on the other hand, never, ever, went without food or water, this is wildly inaccurate, unless you want to point us to a source for this information that I have missed somewhere along the way. 

I agree with your points about sucking it up, however, and yes, people are quick to complain.  I think the IMPs taste like glutinous dogshit, all I taste is the preservatives, and so I eat them as little as possible.  However, I don't complain about it either, and when necessary, I choke it down as required.  Having worked in a field kitchen one weekend, I may never look at another chicken the same way again, but that's neither here nor there...


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Sep 2004)

Burrows said:
			
		

> ... and for the records IMP's are not "$30.00 per meal". Its $8.76 for a normal meal and about $10.00 for a vegitarian



Burrows,
Please quote the the source of your information.


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## Scott (3 Sep 2004)

Here's some good info:

http://www.cariboucry.com/storefront/product305.html  These guys are selling Beef Chop Suey (Good One) for about 4 bucks, doesn't list if it's the whole big smash that you get in the Forces with all the extras.

http://www.mreinfo.com They say here that you can typically get a case of Freddy Chef's for $40 but they can demand up to $80 on e-bay, I did some searches on e-bay and found lots of US MRE's for sale there. The site is a good place to go for anyone considering purchasing IMP's as it gives you tips and typical prices. Happy Hunting.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Sep 2004)

Maybe someone could clear this up for me.

One summer i spent 3 months in the field from monday to friday. I brought my own food and ate that instead of rations but i kept the IMPs (unopened). I collected probably 150 +/- IMP meals. I was going to bring them home and either sell them or keep them to use on future ex's. (I'll bring a few of my own IMPs on EXs just to ensure i get the ones i like).  I got told that keeping them was illegal and since i didnt use them i was required to give them back to the CQ (Whom i thought would have already written them off as used).

What do you guys think?


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## 1feral1 (3 Sep 2004)

8 days? Thats a week and a day. Come on you guys.Try eating ratpacks for weeks at a time. Occasionally in the field we are 'hayboxed', but it depends on what we are doing. If things are full-tac, or when you are say for example, up in the tropics when its 35C at 0800, fresh rats go off. 

Mind you I think Aussie 5 man ratpacks are very well done, and one can have an excellent menu. These rats are usually suplelemted by fresh bread, which does make a difference. Bags of peas, corn potatoes, and meat. All sorts of condiments, even spoons, chocolat bars etc.

Again it depends on what your trade is, but in our vehicle we have a fridge where we keep 'jackrats' (private supplements) such as steak, eggs, and other stuff. everyone brings something. Fresh bread goes along way, and with a jaffle iron, and some imagination, there is no end to making good meals.

Since I am atttached to Artillery, we have the time in RAEME to live quite comfortable in the field, but certain trades such as Infantry, its different. The Australian Salvation Army come out into the field in a Land Rover kittted with fresh cordial (kool-aid), cookies, soups, and chewing gum. Thats about the extent of 'treats' in the field. Also most units have CAPT FANTA truck too, which is the unit's own canteen selling Coke and chips etc, but again depending on the tacticval situation this does not occurr.

I guess what I am saying is 8 days of eating IMPs is no big deal. Just keep in mind for the big ENDEX bbq, and soldier on. There is plenty in those IMPs to feed ya for a few days. 

Here is a pic of the Salvos in the field giving support to out troops. Australia is the only country which currently does this, and has since WW1.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Scott (3 Sep 2004)

In my time I was also able to collect a fair amount of rations. Being that I didn't like sweets back then, I used to trade my desserts for a better entree (Yes I have suffered Ham Steak and the Cabbage Rolls, but not often) the guy trading with me got a heck of a deal, two desserts and he still gets a meal, all he has to do is fork over his lasagna!! I had IMP's kicking around for about 2 years after I left the PRes, they were great for hiking and the sort and, like I said earlier, the outfit I work for just bought a bunch for long deployments, they approached me to ask which entrees are the best and we were able to come to a consensus on what to buy. Result: Happy firefighters. I, for one, have never minded IMP's, actually enjoy them for some odd reason. The only troubling thing about them is the mad dash to the toilet one must make after partaking in your first fresh meal following a week on rations......ZING!!

My favorite meals were:
Lasagna, sausage and hash browns, beef chop suey, sheppard's pie and salisbury steak.

I recall 1998 in Amherst, NS, we were doing FIBUA and UN style patrolling through the town. I was in an OP and desperately trying to heat my lasagna, after the suggested 5 minutes in water I opened the pouch to reveal a frozen lump of pasta. Thankfully the lasagna is inside of a pasta pouch and I just chomped into it as if it were a chocolate bar. Not a pleasant experience.

Ghost, in response to your question, I wouldn't give a fiddler's fu*k if you kept them. I know when I was given IMP's we field stripped them, why would the CQ want field stripped rations back? I never asked if they wanted them back and have never heard of anyone wanting them back.


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## Supply (3 Sep 2004)

Just a perspective from a Supply Tech, once the IMP's are issued to the troops they are considered to be writting off.


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## Scott (3 Sep 2004)

I figured as much, like I said, how do you recover a field stripped IMP?


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## Jarnhamar (3 Sep 2004)

Thanks supply.

I wasn't tactical in the field so the rats just came in a box and were handed out to the troops. I just stashed mine in my kitbag. Someone felt like it was important to tell the chain of command that i had rations left over and should give them back.  Kinda thought I was right in that i didn't have to give them back but i didn't want to make a big deal about it.

I'm actually thinking of ordering some american rations to bring on ex's. Use them here and there to spice things up and have a little change. Their also great for trading 
Does anyone know of any companies where i could get cheap american MREs  or how much is a good price per MRE/box?


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## Scott (3 Sep 2004)

Ghost, check the link I supplied above or go onto e-bay and do some searching, lots of stuff there


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## Jarnhamar (3 Sep 2004)

Yup checking ebay. thought you guys may have known someone. NP.

<---- Will sell IMPs to hungry troops


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## rounder (15 Oct 2004)

Ok... I understand that people bitch and complain about eating IMP's. Frankly I agree. It is a total escape of responsibility from our brigade / area leadership. I will support this by stating a well known fact "The difference between a professional army and a non professional army is logistics". So why is the area / brigade not employing this vital branch of logistics in the most important / expensive exercise in reserve history? I'm a section commander and I don't mind the IMP's, but the real questions is, can these A echelon guys do their job? If so, and no doubt they can, when do they exercise?

If anyone wants to challenge me on this please do.
mike_t27@hotmail.com


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## Bartok5 (15 Oct 2004)

Hmmmm, I will "challenge" you.   If I understand the context correctly, you deploy on an exercise of 10-14 days duration once per year.   And you expect to recieve fresh rations in lieu of hard rations, or at least a fresh ration "break" every so often.   And then it didn't happen while you deployed on Ex STALWART GUARDIAN.

So OK "Rounder",

I am  "challenging" you.

Suffice it to say that I am almost (but not quite) at a loss for words.   My goodness - there you were in the field for a week (maybe more?), and you didn't get a fresh pizza and two cold beer.   Wow....I'm starting to feel as if we could bond......NOT.   It is high time that you learned to "Suck it up buttercup".   

Hard rations WILL sustain you indefinitely.   You WILL grow tired of the repetitive menu, despite the fact that it is the best in the world.   But you WILL be fed, and fed well.   If you are on an operational deployment, there will be more rations that you can eat.   Still hungry?   Fine, help yourself to another box.

Try eating hard rations for 6 months in the Afghan desert, and then start pissing and moaning about how your week-long exercise sucked because you didn't get your fresh breakfast.   Sorry, no sympathy here.   Suck it up, and soldier on.   If rations were your biggest concern, then your soldiering priorities are sadly misplaced.

And now I shall take deep breaths and relax....


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## Infanteer (15 Oct 2004)

What I am worried about is that rather then address issues about combat arms training (tactics, techniques, drills and exercise scenarios, etc, etc) people would rather whine about the food they got.

As Mark stated "If rations were your biggest concern, then your soldiering priorities are sadly misplaced."

Did you guys learn anything from Stalwart Guardian besides the fact that you didn't get the pizza and ice cream you were expecting?


Food is a crutch.


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## Pikache (16 Oct 2004)

Actually, there were two fresh meals during the ex.

Frankly, I was surprised.


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## Alex252 (16 Oct 2004)

What type of meals can come with a IMP. Since im not in the army i cant make a opinion but they dont sound that bad. Would it basically be eating a frozen tv dinner for 8 days?


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## gun plumber (16 Oct 2004)

I personally like most of them.Some on the other hand are heinious.
Favs-Beans and weiners
           Sausge and hash browns
           Beef and veg stew(not sure if this one still exists...)
       anything that can be mistaken for chef boyarde
Worst meal ever-salmon!
Just a Question-has anyone else noticed that the "extras" don't match the meal?


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## scm77 (16 Oct 2004)

2002 IMP menu.

http://www.mreinfo.com/imp_menus.html


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## PPCLI Guy (16 Oct 2004)

rounder said:
			
		

> Ok... I understand that people ***** and complain about eating IMP's. Frankly I agree. It is a total escape of responsibility from our brigade / area leadership. I will support this by stating a well known fact "The difference between a professional army and a non professional army is logistics". So why is the area / brigade not employing this vital branch of logistics in the most important / expensive exercise in reserve history? I'm a section commander and I don't mind the IMP's, but the real questions is, can these A echelon guys do their job? If so, and no doubt they can, when do they exercise?
> If anyone wants to challenge me on this please do.
> mike_t27@hotmail.com



I was the Exercise Director for both Ex STALWART GUARDIAN 03 and 04, so I will give you a little background on the decisions that were made with respect to the Ration Plan.

Cost was a factor.  Fresh rations and IMPs come from different budgets.  IMPs are purchased centrally by National Procurement, whereas fresh rations come directly from the exercise budget.  

The bar was raised significantly this year for the CSS troops.  They were given more tactical tasks, and resupply was tactical from Day 1.  We had to carefully guage what could and could not be achieved.

We did not have enough "flying kitchens" to outfit each unit - and even if we did, we did not have nearly enough cooks.  Tours overseas, outsourcing in Garrison Kitchens etc have eaten into that trade significantly.

Based on all of that, I told the logistics planning staff to run the figures for a minimum of 3 meals and a maximum of 6 meals fresh on the exercise.  I ultimately decided on 3 meals, predominantly due to cost.

If there was a "leadership failure" anywhere in the system, as has been suggested, the fault liies entirely with me.  I personally made the decision, and stand by it.  Moreover, as COS of EXCON, I ensured that all pers on the exercise, including EXCON, were on the same ration plan.  

Did people abuse the system - yes they did.  Those unauthorised personnel that went to the Garrison Kitchen cost the EX close to $300K in unforecast expenditures.  It got to the point that on two separate occassions I stood in front of Normandy Court and challenged SG pers that were going in for a meal - which was clearly not an efficient use of my time.

The bottom line is that many factors were considered before the ration plan was established - and then people still didn't follow orders.

As an aside, we faced the same conundrum for BTE 03.  Based on fundinig limitations, the original plan was for 27 of the 30 days to be IMP.  Eventually the Comd ordered that we go to 15 days fresh vice 3, and we found savings elsewhere in the budget.


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## Jarnhamar (16 Oct 2004)

> Did people abuse the system - yes they did.  Those unauthorised personnel that went to the Garrison Kitchen cost the EX close to $300K in unforecast expenditures.



Troops sneaking up to for a meal. That really pisses me off. Whats even worse is when you need a vehicle but it's still gone because buddy is sneaking a shower or meal.  Worst still is having to have an officer babysit the troops.


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## PPCLI Guy (16 Oct 2004)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> Worst still is having to have an officer babysit the troops.



Absolutely true.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Oct 2004)

PPCLI GUY, Next time hire Slim and myself for $100,000 to keep the not requirings out.We have a little experience that might help and a net savings of.....oh wait Slim and I have to eat. ;D


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## rounder (16 Oct 2004)

Mark C,

      I think I may have not properly explained my point as well as I should have. I really couldn't care if we were on IMP's or not. Now, unlike you, I have not been on them for more than 13 days, but back to my point. If field kitchens, as part of a logistical support unit is part of our Army, and I'm sure they are, when do they exercise???? Ex SG was apparently the be all to end all exercises, so Mark, where were they?Exercises are not just for combat arms.


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## rounder (16 Oct 2004)

> Did people abuse the system - yes they did.  Those unauthorised personnel that went to the Garrison Kitchen cost the EX close to $300K in unforecast expenditures.  It got to the point that on two separate occassions I stood in front of Normandy Court and challenged SG pers that were going in for a meal - which was clearly not an efficient use of my time.



PPCLI guy,

   I thought that the Area Comd forbid anyone to go into Normandy Court, or was this 300K a VIP expenditure. Quite frankly sir I am appalled that this happened. No failure of leadership from my POV. Let me ask you this, when do these kitchen staff exercise? That has been my real point.


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## Infanteer (16 Oct 2004)

Someone should ambush the Field Kitchens and carry off the Wonderbread to sustain future insurgency operations.

Honesty, nothing annoys me more then the "half-tactical" situations - like when the OC says "Stay in that muddy hole and be quiet, we're tactical" and then goes into the well lit and heated mod tent down the road.  Its either go hard or go home.

Enemy Force, with suitable WES (MILES), should be put in its area, told to attack the enemy, and act accordingly.   If this means attacking admin areas and taking prisoners and supplies in the process, leaving the guys at the front without beans and bullets, then the Enemy Force commander scores points for attacking the cohesion of his opponent through indirect methods.   I think Rounder makes a good point when he states that _"Exercises are not just for combat arms."_


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## rounder (16 Oct 2004)

> Enemy Force, with suitable WES (MILES), should be put in its area, told to attack the enemy, and act accordingly.  If this means attacking admin areas and taking prisoners and supplies in the process, leaving the guys at the front without beans and bullets, then the Enemy Force commander scores points for attacking the cohesion of his opponent through indirect methods.




LOVE IT!!!! Never gonna happen. In my unit the En force are usually Tpt reps and recruits!!!


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## Infanteer (16 Oct 2004)

There is the first problem, a dumbed down enemy force.  Truely effective unit training requires force-on-force free play.  One can't judge one's abilities unless he puts them up against a reactive, thinking opponent.


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## Pikache (16 Oct 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Honesty, nothing annoys me more then the "half-tactical" situations - like when the OC says "Stay in that muddy hole and be quiet, we're tactical" and then goes into the well lit and heated mod tent down the road. Its either go hard or go home.


Like having a coy hide with cammed up hooches, but have a CQ right beside it with white light and full generator going. Odd tactical situation, if you ask me.


> Enemy Force, with suitable WES (MILES), should be put in its area, told to attack the enemy, and act accordingly.  If this means attacking admin areas and taking prisoners and supplies in the process, leaving the guys at the front without beans and bullets, then the Enemy Force commander scores points for attacking the cohesion of his opponent through indirect methods.  I think Rounder makes a good point when he states that _"Exercises are not just for combat arms."_



For FIBUA portion of SG04, the enemy force was RCR FIBUA specialists, at least some of them were. It showed as first coy attack ran into a meat grinder in the middle of the village. Second attack, enemy force tried a counterattack on firebase but got chewed up. It was certainly more refreshing than traditional dumbed down enemy force.

A dedicated, skilled enemy force during exs would improve the training tremendously.


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## PPCLI Guy (16 Oct 2004)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> PPCLI GUY, Next time hire Slim and myself for $100,000 to keep the not requirings out.We have a little experience that might help and a net savings of.....oh wait Slim and I have to eat. ;D



Slim and Bruce - The Mess Hall Enforcers...


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## PPCLI Guy (16 Oct 2004)

Rounder said:
			
		

> If field kitchens, as part of a logistical support unit is part of our Army, and I'm sure they are, when do they exercise???? Ex SG was apparently the be all to end all exercises, so Mark, where were they?.



Read my previous post - there were not enough cooks or field kitchens to go around.  Those that were there got exercised - in all aspects of their profession, including self-defence.  



> Exercises are not just for combat arms



True enough.  Whenever a CBG goes on Ex, they should exerfice their cooks.  Whnever a unit goes on Ex, it should ask for cook support.


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## PPCLI Guy (16 Oct 2004)

Rounder said:
			
		

> PPCLI guy,
> 
> I thought that the Area Comd forbid anyone to go into Normandy Court, or was this 300K a VIP expenditure. Quite frankly sir I am appalled that this happened. No failure of leadership from my POV.



Yes, the policy was very clear.   No, it was not a VIP expense.   Meals for visitors were budgeted for separately.   This was officers, NCOs and soldiers who would drive onto the base and eat fresh rations.   Most of that expense was incurred during the first couple of days of the exercise (during the setup, prior to the arrival of the main body), when we had hayboxes in the field.


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## rounder (16 Oct 2004)

Who issued the meal cards????


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## PPCLI Guy (16 Oct 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Someone should ambush the Field Kitchens and carry off the Wonderbread to sustain future insurgency operations.
> 
> Enemy Force, with suitable WES (MILES), should be put in its area, told to attack the enemy, and act accordingly.   If this means attacking admin areas and taking prisoners and supplies in the process, leaving the guys at the front without beans and bullets, then the Enemy Force commander scores points for attacking the cohesion of his opponent through indirect methods.   I think Rounder makes a good point when he states that _"Exercises are not just for combat arms."_



Infanteer,

In the purest sense, you are right of course.  Having said that, an exercise of the magnitude of SG must be designed to focus on specific Battle Task Standards, for both the Primary and the Secondary Training Audiences, and a ruthless focus must be maintained on those activities and audiences.  By concentrating on doing some things well, you have to accept that some other things wont be done quite as well.  The sync matrix for this exercise was unbelievably complex, and I literally could not afford to have any disruptions in CSS, even though the coys of the Composite Service Battalion were part of the Primary Training Audience.  And so we had to make some compromises.  

Let's not forget that it is an Exercise, and hence a learning opportunity.  When the Diesel refuelling point was set up in the open, with no cam, and the crew were told by their Coy Comd that they didn't need weapons because CSS was too important to be screwed with, I directed that if the problem wasn't fixed in 24 hrs, the enemy would capture or destroy the refueller.  I could have had it snapped right away, but the impact of the loss of refuelling capability for the Composite Brigade would have been severe, and many soldiers would have been affected.  

You have heard the bitching about having to eat IMPS for 6 days out of 7 - imagine if there was no fuel, or no food.  No one would show up for the next SG - which brings up another compromise that has to be reached when designing an ex for the Reserves - they don't have to come, so you have to make them want to come.  In other threads related to SG, you can see soldiers stating that they would not go on the ex, "cus last year was a dogs breakfast" etc etc.

So, in a perfect world, the level of training of the troops, comds and staffs would be high enough that you could have true force on force, but if those conditions don't exist, then you have to make compromises, or risk failing to achieve even limited training objectives.

Dave


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## rounder (16 Oct 2004)

> When the Diesel refuelling point was set up in the open, with no cam, and the crew were told by their Coy Comd that they didn't need weapons because CSS was too important to be screwed with, I directed that if the problem wasn't fixed in 24 hrs, the enemy would capture or destroy the refueller.




Wow...

PPCLI guy you must go through some frustrating things. I also, as a reservist, often forget that "We don't have to go". But for me that is not an option, except in extreme emergencies. Could diciplinary action be taken against this Coy Comd? Did you advise whoever was responsible for his assessment?


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## PPCLI Guy (16 Oct 2004)

Rounder said:
			
		

> PPCLI guy you must go through some frustrating things.



 :-X



> Could diciplinary action be taken against this Coy Comd? Did you advise whoever was responsible for his assessment?



No, and yes.  Some times you have to force the horses head into the water and knee it in the b%%s to get it to drink...


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## AmmoTech90 (16 Oct 2004)

Dave,

While I realize the army is just getting back into the brigade level exercises has any thought been given to having an exercise where the CSS could be targetted to a realistic extent.   Ensuring that CSS troops follow a proper defensive routine is one thing, how about testing it?
Would the cost of having the combat arms troops sitting around because they have no ammo, fuel, recovery, batteries or food and therefore no training going on be too high to reinforce the fact that CSS troops must be able to fight too?
I realize that with the Op tempo being what it is many of the larger exercises are designed to prepare a battle group for deployment and if all arms don't get to train it could have real life consequences.   But had we deployed a battle group to Iraq without the CSS being properly tested (possibly to failure) it could have even worse consequences.
Could CSS troops be trained up to a level where they could survive in an environment such as Iraq within the timelines we are mandated to deploy the MCF?

Doug


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## rounder (16 Oct 2004)

> Would the cost of having the combat arms troops sitting around because they have no ammo, fuel, recovery, batteries or food and therefore no training going on be too high to reinforce the fact that CSS troops must be able to fight too?



Doug,


    Good point, but like the man said we're reservists and you make us sit around with no fuel or food then NO ONE will show up next time. Shitty thing but it's true.


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## PPCLI Guy (16 Oct 2004)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Dave,
> While I realize the army is just getting back into the brigade level exercises has any thought been given to having an exercise where the CSS could be targetted to a realistic extent.   Ensuring that CSS troops follow a proper defensive routine is one thing, how about testing it?



Great question.  I have to confess that I approach most training problems from the perspective of  the Combat Arms, and so I have never looked at it that way before.  I know that CSS exercises have a tendency to become "self-licking ice cream cones", because a Svc Bn needs to feel the weight of a Bde on its back in order to be properly exercised at its core competency.  Perhaps a two phased Ex, where the CSS types get put through their tactical paces (with a small dedicated cbt arms OPFOR)  then the "customers" show up and they conduct sustainment ops?



> Could CSS troops be trained up to a level where they could survive in an environment such as Iraq within the timelines we are mandated to deploy the MCF?


  

First, the MCF is no more, but I understand what you are getting at.  The answer is "I sure hope so".  We train our NSEs fairly well prior to ops...

Dave


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## AmmoTech90 (16 Oct 2004)

I know that 2 Svc used to do something like this in Wainwright and the surrounding area during their annual Rough Rider ex but without much enemy force.  The exercise was largely viewed as a bit of joke, the most challenging part being a long road move around AB and SK...

I agree that CSS must work under a load to develop its core competencies.  Exercising without a brigade but faced with a good enemy force would be helpful, but might not drive home the effects of loss of CSS to anyone except the themselves.  If the Brigade Commander is watching his combat arms units sitting not even able to spin their wheels I think the point would be driven home much quicker.  It would be costly both in dollars and training time for the combat arms, but might raise awareness of our vulnerbilities.
As you said yourself, and I have observed, most planning is done by combat arms pers whose main desire is improve the sharp end.  This is definately a worthy objective.  However any arguments about the tail wagging the dog or the dog wagging the tail become moot when there tail is amputated.

This should probably go its own topic if the conversation going to carry on... 

When did the MCF and Vanguard vanish, is Strategy 2020 gone?  Can I expect to see shiny new brochures and pamphlets in Maple Leaf and floating around the office with a new vision?


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## Jarnhamar (16 Oct 2004)

> Who issued the meal cards?



Meal cards don't get issued.
All someone needs to do is get their food, walk to the cash and say "I'm with excersise whatever" and they ring the total up. Impossible to track people.


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## Devlin (16 Oct 2004)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Great question.   I have to confess that I approach most training problems from the perspective of   the Combat Arms, and so I have never looked at it that way before.   I know that CSS exercises have a tendency to become "self-licking ice cream cones", because a Svc Bn needs to feel the weight of a Bde on its back in order to be properly exercised at its core competency.   Perhaps a two phased Ex, where the CSS types get put through their tactical paces (with a small dedicated cbt arms OPFOR)   then the "customers" show up and they conduct sustainment ops?
> 
> 
> Dave



As a CSS type person please forgive my initial reaction to the "self-licking ice cream cone" metaphor.  I am from a Northern CSS unit that is fortunate to get plenty of opportunity to go play silly bugger in the woods. Sharing an armoury with an infantry unit also aids in this. Part of the problem I observed from a CSS perspective this year was when the larger southern CSS units get into the woods they decide it's time to play "Gravel Tech" no offence to you real infantry types while they have their week in the woods. There were more friggin stand to's (an out of date tactic by the way) at the CSS area than you could shake a stick at. 

On the food and feading perspective the combined efforts of the SVC BN's delivered enough IMP's during this EX to feed one man 3 meals a day for 28 years. So yes were busy people figuring out DP's, Road Moves, and RRR (Repair Recovery Requests) would we welcome the chance to play silly bugger and get attacked not a problem and bring it on. 

As far as being put through our tactical paces we do this but in a slightly different way than the Combat Arms types would think of. Some examples, Black out driving (yes I know other trades do it - but not as well as we do  8)), Night-time DP's, etc...

No it's not the same thing at all, but what both sides (The Combat Arms and The Support Trades) need to understand is that we need each other to do our jobs effectively. It's hard for most reserve infantry units to understand the value of a SVC BN because the reserve infantry unit is typically doing a Friday night, Saturday and Sunday training event where they are self-sufficient for those three days. Most don't get to interact with the SVC BN's until a major EX like SG04.


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## Infanteer (16 Oct 2004)

> There were more friggin stand to's (an out of date tactic by the way)



Are you sure about?


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## rounder (17 Oct 2004)

Ghost 778,

    The Normandy Mess staff should have been advised of the Comd's policy, don't you think?


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## rounder (17 Oct 2004)

> There were more friggin stand to's (an out of date tactic by the way) at the CSS area than you could shake a stick at.



Are you kidding!! Obviously you've never been a Pl 2i/c (That's a platoon second in command) in case you don't get it. Stand to is a NOT out dated, it is a tool used to test readiness by coy / pl leadership. Buddy, thanks for your comments but that was a loaded thing to say, and if your mind hasn't changed then stick to DP's and resups.

Come on man!!


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## Jarnhamar (17 Oct 2004)

Rounder, I honestly don't think they care. It's not them who are going to pay for it, their making money so it's no sweat off their back.

Maybe the mess could find a way to enforce the policy more but I don't see how. Theres way too many people going in and out of the mess for them to keep track of who's who. I don't see a way (for the mess) to tell if a reservist is entitled to a meal or if they are trying to sneak a free one in.   
They could issue meal cards to all those who are entitled to meals but I think that would be a nightmare. You have guys showing up for advanced party then moving into one of the companies, certain people who are supposed to show up but at the last minute cancel and someone else takes their place. Someone gets injured and has to spent 2 days eating mess food while on bed rest or something.   
I think it would be next to impossible to keep everyones name on some kind of roll simply because in the reserves a lot of it is shoot from the hip and whoever shows up shows up.

In the end i can see them simply saying "It's your job to police and account for your troops actions, not ours".



> It's hard for most reserve infantry units to understand the value of a SVC BN because the reserve infantry unit is typically doing a Friday night, Saturday and Sunday training event where they are self-sufficient for those three days. Most don't get to interact with the SVC BN's until a major EX like SG04.[/quote I think thats very true. On week-end ex's the infantry companies usually support themselves and don't see the bigger picture when it comes to service and support.



I've found that 80% of the time the service guys actually want to get in there and do the infantry training. They want to try out the jungle lanes, go on a patrol, fire big weapons and get dirty. They want the good trainingjust as much as the infantry does. It's fun stuff. I've found when a service guy gets attached to us and we do something like fibua, a patrol, get ambushed or whatever their morale is through the roof. "Fuck i love this!"
I think the problem (and I've seen it a few times) is that when they express an interest to do this their command says no.   "Your here to fix broken weapons or your hear to resupply the companies, it's not your job to do what their doing".     
It does make sense too. These guys are here to do a specific job. It may not be as "fun" as other jobs but it needs to be done. They brigade can't really afford for them to all stop supporting the combat arms and do their own thing. 

I think with some hard work and and luck, we could find a way to slide these guys (a little bit at a time) into positions where they can brush up on their soldier skills. Here and there they can be attached to the infantry or armored and get some exposure to war fighting training while their unit remains functioning, supporting the brigade and doing it's job.


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## Devlin (17 Oct 2004)

Perhaps I could have been more clear they (Command Staff) had the CSS guys doing the traditional and predictable stand to's at first and last light. Which for anyone in the area made for some pretty easy targets. My bad for not being more clear about what specifically was out of date.


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## rounder (17 Oct 2004)

Devlin,


    You are right... Stand too's are bad at first and last light... the en will know everything about you if you do that. They do not preach that anymore.... And as a Pl 2i/c I never did it at first and last light..... you are forgiven!


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## devil39 (17 Oct 2004)

Rounder said:
			
		

> Are you kidding!! Obviously you've never been a Pl 2i/c (That's a platoon second in command) in case you don't get it. Stand to is a NOT out dated, it is a tool used to test readiness by coy / pl leadership. Buddy, thanks for your comments but that was a loaded thing to say, and if your mind hasn't changed then stick to DP's and resups.
> 
> Come on man!!



Rounder,

Tool to test readiness?   Sure in training perhaps.

Might there not also be some tactical merit to a stand to?   I've used them on occasion, on operations at the Coy level, not with the intent of testing the readiness of my troops.   

And at first light.

And definitely *not* preceded by someone running around yelling "Stand To ... Stand To"   I might add.


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## Fusaki (18 Oct 2004)

> For FIBUA portion of SG04, the enemy force was RCR FIBUA specialists, at least some of them were.



Hehe. Bravo Coy 1RCR was your Enemy Force. Nothing special, just your run of the mill rifle company. We're just super, thats all.


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## Devlin (18 Oct 2004)

Rounder

That was the thing it was how they were executing the stand-to's at first and last light and some freakin numpty nuts running through the treelines yelling stand-to. It was a sight to behold. Very Quasi-Tactical if I do say.


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## PPCLI Guy (18 Oct 2004)

Devlin said:
			
		

> Rounder
> 
> That was the thing it was how they were executing the stand-to's at first and last light and some freakin numpty nuts running through the treelines yelling stand-to. It was a sight to behold. Very Quasi-Tactical if I do say.



That is why we go on ex - to make mistakes, and learn from them.  Was this brought up on the AAR or hotwash (he asks, knowing that there probably wasn't an AR or hotwash - sigh).?


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## Devlin (18 Oct 2004)

Sir.

I believe it was brought up in the Hot Wash.  Though the problem is taking next next steps and actually actioning the points brought up during the the Hot Wash. I as not at the Hot Wash (above my payscale). It's great to identify the problem (Congratulations Sir, You have a remarkable grasp of the blatantly obvious) but what do we do to improve upon it? 

During these Hot Washes and AAR's it's great that we propose solutions to the problems identified. The struggle is getting the human resources tasked to take action. 

Yes agreed Sir, we do go on EX to make mistakes and learn from them. Now we have to remember what we have learned.


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## PPCLI Guy (18 Oct 2004)

Devlin said:
			
		

> Sir.



No sirs here... 



> During these Hot Washes and AAR's it's great that we propose solutions to the problems identified. The struggle is getting the human resources tasked to take action.
> 
> Yes agreed Sir, we do go on EX to make mistakes and learn from them. Now we have to remember what we have learned.




I see from your profile that you are an officer.  Why not try a subtle approach - and bring up the topic of the stand to drill in the Mess?  There is nothing wrong with a healthy discourse on matters professional (indeed it is to be encouraged) in the Mess, and you may find that your intended target (OC or Ops O) is listening...

Dave


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## rounder (18 Oct 2004)

> Might there not also be some tactical merit to a stand to?




    I'm listening... Not being a smart ass either, I am curious.


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## devil39 (18 Oct 2004)

Rounder said:
			
		

> I'm listening... Not being a smart *** either, I am curious.



Any number of reasons.

For example from 392-004-FP01 Infantry Patrolling dealing with patrol base routines:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-009/b-gl-392/004/FP-001/B-GL-392-004-FP-001.pdf

"A one hour (hr) stand-to is observed morning and evening; 30 min before and 30 min after first light and 30 min before and 30 min after last light. This ensures that all patrolmen are accustomed to the changing light conditions, are dressed, properly equipped and ready to move."

I have used this in a Coy ptl base in conjunction with a clearance patrol at first light prior to a helo extraction.


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