# Um What Piece of Kit is This?



## Foofighter (15 Jun 2007)

This is probably a really stupid question, but what the hell are these guys wearing on their heads???


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## AmmoTech90 (15 Jun 2007)

Protective gear for use with marker rounds (simmunition).


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## Roy Harding (15 Jun 2007)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Protective gear for use with marker rounds (simmunition).



OK - but if they're using simmunition, why is there a BFA on the weapon?


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## Yrys (15 Jun 2007)

civy question : is simmunition blank ?


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## McG (15 Jun 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> OK - but if they're using simmunition, why is there a BFA on the weapon?


Maybe simunition was only given to OPFOR?  I notice that there is also MILES on the weapons.



			
				Yrys said:
			
		

> civy question : is simmunition blank ?


No.  Simunition fires a projectile that will cause enough pain that you know you've been hit.  However, it won't kill or injure (less some bruising).


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## Yrys (15 Jun 2007)

MCG said:
			
		

> No.  Simunition fires a projectile that will cause enough pain that you know you've been hit.  However, it won't kill or injure (less some bruising).



Thanks for the answer. How does it do that  : less powder, different one ? Does it react the same physical way (same trajectory)?


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## medaid (15 Jun 2007)

Simunition is basically a round that has a plastic paint tipped bullet, then a metal one. It has less gun powder so the range is limited, and it not only hurts but it marks the place where you've been hit. Hence the paint


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## Yrys (15 Jun 2007)

W W it's canadian !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simunition


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## McG (15 Jun 2007)

Yrys said:
			
		

> W W it's canadian !


Yep.  However, SNC Tec is now GD-OTS (Canada).


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## The_Falcon (15 Jun 2007)

I describe simmunition as paintball on steroids to my friends, cause thats basically what they are.  Also since they don't make simmunition for support weapons, its not surprising that the C9 is using blanks, with MILES gear.

Edit, I was just on the simunition site (www.simunition.com) and it appears they now make 5.56mm marker rounds both singles and linked.  Anyone know if he have started using this for the C9s?


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## Douke (15 Jun 2007)

Haven't seen any used for C9 yet, but it would be a great step forward in training realism, even though  I would hate to be on the receiving end...  :-\

Douke


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## Devlin (15 Jun 2007)

For anyone who cares the picture referenced was taken at Stalwart Guardian 06.


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## Armymedic (15 Jun 2007)

Or the en force could just be using paintballs.

Cheaper and easier to get.


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Jun 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Simunition is basically a round that has a plastic paint tipped bullet, then a metal one. It has less gun powder so the range is limited, and it not only hurts but it marks the place where you've been hit. Hence the paint



The current CF simunition round uses a 9 mm cartridge in order to fire the round.


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## RHFC_piper (15 Jun 2007)

Devlin said:
			
		

> For anyone who cares the picture referenced was taken at Stalwart Guardian 06.



I think I've seen this pic floating around after Stalwart Guardian 05 as a promotion for 06... could be wrong.
But, since Stalwart 05 was the only SG I've been on, and we used Simunition with Miles gear (thus the gorilla masks and lazers) for that ex (for OBUA), that leads me to believe the picture might have been taken in 05...  But knowing the reserve system, they could have very well done the same thing in 06... even though we all mentioned, during various AARs, how pointless it was to use 2 different types of casualty identification systems in one ex.

Either way, that's a silly picture which doesn't represent training in the reserve (or regular) force well.  I don't know how many times I've had to explain it, and then why it's wrong to my civilian friends.  Oh well.


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## Blakey (15 Jun 2007)

> CFB Petawawa, Ontario, Canada
> 
> Soldiers of 33 Light Infantry Battalion take cover behind a flipped car during operations in built-up areas training, on Exercise Stalwart Guardian 2004 at CFB Petawawa. The Exercise involved more than 3600 troops-including some 3,000 Reservists- and focused on operations in the transitional phase of war, which include raids, blocks, and operations in built-up areas.
> 
> Photo by Cpl Philip Cheung, 32 Brigade Group Public Affairs


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## RHFC_piper (15 Jun 2007)

Ahhh.... Thats right... it was 04.   I was in Meaford finishing a contract as CQ staff in 05.

Meh... either way, it was a crap ex.  Learned nothing and got some nice bruises from the simunition.

Simunition is good for OBUA, but is pointless for much else due to its lack of range. Miles is decent for section attacks, but is pretty out dated.
Haven't used the WES yet, but I hear good things... at least you don't have to wear the gorilla masks.


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## J.J (15 Jun 2007)

> No.  Simunition fires a projectile that will cause enough pain that you know you've been hit.  However, it won't kill or injure (less some bruising).



I agree with that!!! I was shot 3 weeks ago, 19 times, at close range (1-3m), from a S&W (9mm). I was wearing _almost _ all of the required safety kit, my body armour, Kevlar gloves and coveralls. One shot hit me between my glove and sleeve, I still have a mark that will turn into a scar  :crybaby:. That hand was "protecting" a vital part of my body...I forgot to put my cup on  :-[! Two more shots hit me below my vest and above my belt line, I still have small welts on my stomach.

 Moral of the story is two fold...one where all your required safety gear and two, most importantly....do not charge LEO's, with their pistols drawn and pointed at you with a plastic knife...you will lose!


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## brihard (16 Jun 2007)

Yup, I remember that ex... In fact, that would have been the same particular raid I was on.

We had Simunition for the C7s, and MILES for the supprt weapons. So we had to tote both the simunition kit and MILES receivers. I was a C9 gunner for that, not a whole ton of fun. Hopefully the 5.56 simunition will make these exercises run a bit more smoothly. Now if only they could get some decent masks... The paintball industry might actually be of some help in this regard.


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## Loachman (18 Jun 2007)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Meh... either way, it was a crap ex.



Oh, yeah? I had a blast - but then I was doing the helicopter bit.

Feedback that I got while strolling the PZs and chatting with the troops between lifts varied considerably according to the company. Leadership at that level seems to have been the determining factor.

Given the effort that went into planning and conducting it and the money spent it HAD to be better than the milcons that I went on in the mid-seventies.

It was a very ambitious and politically risky ex, and I think that it raised people's appreciation of what reservists could do.

Back to the kit question: a light blue upper receiver and barrel combination replaced the upper receiver/barrel of the standard C7 and C8 - this altered the calibre of the weapon to accept the Simunition and blue is the colour of inert training ammunition.


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## LordOsborne (25 Jun 2007)

So far as I know, there isn't a Simunition 5.56mm link, which might explain why the C9 has to use BFAs and MILES.


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## Greymatters (25 Jun 2007)

Looks pretty futuristic... is there a specific name for that headgear?


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## The_Falcon (25 Jun 2007)

PatrickO said:
			
		

> So far as I know, there isn't a Simunition 5.56mm link, which might explain why the C9 has to use BFAs and MILES.



No, we (as in CF) just don't have it/aren't using it yet (5.56mm Sim).  http://www.simunition.com/upload/doc_4.pdf


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## Devlin (2 Jul 2007)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Ahhh.... Thats right... it was 04.   I was in Meaford finishing a contract as CQ staff in 05.



Wow I have to stop eating out of aluminum pots I guess...it was indeed 04...time flies


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## 1feral1 (2 Jul 2007)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Haven't used the WES yet, but I hear good things... at least you don't have to wear the gorilla masks.



An accronym for my own name, ha!

Wes


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## s23256 (2 Jul 2007)

I had the opportunity to fire the 5.56mm Simmunition in April from a C7 and C9.  From my limited exposure I thought it was excellent.  I experienced no stoppages and the ability use linked ammo for the C9 and proper 30 round metal mags for the C7 makes for a dramatic increase in realism and trg value.  I also tried one of the new masks the company is trialing and they are leaps and bounds ahead of the gorilla mask.  I was able to actually acquire my sights and take aimed shots with the mask on.  The C7  requires only a replacement bolt and the C9 requires a replacement bolt and carrier as well as a small plastic spacer which attaches to the feed tray to accommodate the shorter Simm rounds.  I would hate to be on the wrong end of the C9 with this stuff as it took me all of three seconds to pretty much shred a paper target with it.


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## 1feral1 (2 Jul 2007)

Along with the mask, crikey I hope there is something to protect one's gonads, ha! Shredding paper vs one's ball bag - ouch! Pain! Medic!!! Stretcher!!! Morphine!!!

We use simunition here too, but I have never been exposed to it.


Cheers,

Wes


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## zipperhead_cop (2 Jul 2007)

FYI, the simunition slugs are more like chunks of bright painted soap in a plastic casing.  And to re-itterate: they hurt.


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## The_Falcon (3 Jul 2007)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Along with the mask, crikey I hope there is something to protect one's gonads, ha! Shredding paper vs one's ball bag - ouch! Pain! Medic!!! Stretcher!!! Morphine!!!
> 
> We use simunition here too, but I have never been exposed to it.
> 
> ...



Everytime I have ever used it we wore jocks (outside our uniforms of course).


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## RHFC_piper (3 Jul 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Everytime I have ever used it we wore jocks (outside our uniforms of course).



HAH!! yeah!!  Makes everyone look like something out of "A Clockwork Orange"...  Welly-welly-welly-well...

Good times.


Funny story about simunition;
The first experience I had with simunition was during a weekend ex, late fall.  It was cold.  First lesson; Cold and simunition don't mix.
I was playing "enemy force"; we were instructed to defend our position to the last man, and put up a good fight.  We were also instructed to 'play up' injuries and wounds to add realism. 
When the company attacked our position, they got very close before we came under 'effective fire'. Lesson 2; Simunition is very short ranged.  So, the first contact I had with simunition was a shot to the thigh at roughly 10 feet.  At first, when the round hit, I didn't feel it, so I "acted" injured; grabbing my leg saying "ooh... I'm hurt."  Then the actual feeling of the round hit, and I found my self on the ground screaming in pain. Lesson 3; Simunition, when frozen, has much the same effect as a real bullet, especially at close range.  It had punctured my combats and my skin.  I ripped my pant leg open more to get at the round and had to pry it out of my thigh with my gerber... It also left a huge welt, which formed almost instantly.  
The worst part was; everyone thought I was just "acting out" the injury, until they came and saw it... It was nasty.
Simunition is good stuff, but you have to have the right circumstances. equipment and training to use it effectively and without injury.


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## L + W Infanteer (4 Jul 2007)

That sounds like it was very painful. How is it at slightly longer range and not in the cold?


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## RHFC_piper (4 Jul 2007)

Linc said:
			
		

> That sounds like it was very painful. How is it at slightly longer range and not in the cold?



Slightly less accurate and slighly less painful.


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## CF_Lifer (23 Jul 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> Looks pretty futuristic... is there a specific name for that headgear?



I'm pretty sure that mask is made by Brass Eagle. I forget what the model's called, but they were known for having 360degree protection, and a wide field of view.


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## Greymatters (23 Jul 2007)

Hmmm.... tried a search and didnt come up with a match....


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## patt (23 Jul 2007)

Douke said:
			
		

> Haven't seen any used for C9 yet, but it would be a great step forward in training realism, even though  I would hate to be on the receiving end...  :-\
> 
> Douke



http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=2127


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## McG (23 Jul 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> Looks pretty futuristic... is there a specific name for that headgear?


The protective equipment is part of the simunition product line.
http://www.simunition.com/protective_equipment/fx_protective_equipment_en.php


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## Greymatters (24 Jul 2007)

Ah, the FX 9002, thanks MCG.


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## LordOsborne (24 Jul 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> No, we (as in CF) just don't have it/aren't using it yet (5.56mm Sim).  http://www.simunition.com/upload/doc_4.pdf



I stand corrected. Cheers for that link.


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## brihard (25 Jul 2007)

PatrickO said:
			
		

> I stand corrected. Cheers for that link.



We most definitely DO have the 5.56 simunition in service- when I was at the Petawawa OBUA site a few weeks back there was still a fair bit of 5.56mm simunition brass on the ground. I suspect it's one of the 'special' units using it for now, but it is out there. I talked to a guy working for the company at the CANSEC show in Ottawa, and he was able to tell me that the CF has already committed to at least a company set for each of the three regiments. The nice thing about the 5.56 is that all you need to swap out on the C7 is the bolt. Much more convenient.


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## Yeoman (25 Jul 2007)

I'm not special and I've used it.
well I am special, but only my mom says that.


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## brihard (25 Jul 2007)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> I'm not special and I've used it.
> well I am special, but only my mom says that.



So it's made its way down to normal battalion use sometimes? Right on.


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## LordOsborne (25 Jul 2007)

Well that's good to hear. Despite the range limitation, I am convinced that Simunition has more training value than MILES does. 

Speaking of laser simulators though, can someone fill me in on the difference between MILES and WES? Some friends of mine at the CbtEng school told me they were going to use the WES system on their course and that it was rumoured to be better than MILES.


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## Dissident (25 Jul 2007)

Our (Vancouver) platoon was supposed to be able to borrow the equipment and get some simunition rounds for training. That never paned out, due to other constrains, but I have a feeling that simunition is out there if we need it. 

And now that I think about it, they had it all at Cougar Salvo 06. Well, for the door crashers anyway.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jul 2007)

PatrickO said:
			
		

> Well that's good to hear. Despite the range limitation, I am convinced that Simunition has more training value than MILES does.
> 
> Speaking of laser simulators though, can someone fill me in on the difference between MILES and WES? Some friends of mine at the CbtEng school told me they were going to use the WES system on their course and that it was rumoured to be better than MILES.



MILES Gear:

The Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System or MILES is used by the United States Armed Forces and other armed forces around the world for training purposes. It uses lasers and blank cartridges to simulate actual battle.

Individual soldiers carry small laser receivers scattered over their bodies, which detect when the soldier has been shined by a firearm's laser. Each laser transmitter is set to mimic the effective range of the weapon on which it is used. When a person is "hit," a medic can use the digital readout to determine which first aid method to practice.

Different versions of MILES systems are available both within the US and internationally. The capabilities of the individual systems can vary significantly but in general all modern systems carry information about the shooter, weapon and ammunition in the laser. When this information is received by the target, the target's MILES system determines the result of the 'hit' using a random number roll and a table lookup. As a result a MILES emulating an M-16 rifle cannot destroy an Armored Personell Carrier (APC), but could still kill a commander visible in the hatch of the vehicle. Vehicles are typically outfitted with a belt of laser sensors while dismounted troops often wear a vest or harness with sensors as well as a 'halo' of sensors on their helmets. Often these MILES systems are coupled with a real-time datalink allowing position and event data to be transmitted back to a central site for data collection and display. More sophisticated systems for tanks and APCs exist that use various techniques (including scanning lasers and coupled radio systems) to do more precise targeting of armored vehicles.

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MILES)

WES System:

The Weapon Effects Simulation system, commonly referred to as WES, is a live simulation system to be delivered as six separate suites. WES is comprised of the following sub-systems:


  Direct Fire Weapon Effects Simulators, or DFWES, include lasers mounted on all direct fire weapons such as rifles, machine guns and missiles, as well as laser detectors integrated onto soldier and vehicle players. Players are also equipped with miniature computers, radios, global positioning systems and power packs used to process, transmit and receive all engagement data. DFWES will also include the Observer Controller equipment that initializes player status and collects engagement data directly from players for field After Action Reviews. All suites will include DFWES. 
Area Weapon Effects Simulation, or AWES, is computer software generated, radio transmitted simulation of area weapon fire. Area weapons include artillery and mortars, minefields, and nuclear, biological and chemical events. Observer Controllers and the Exercise Control centre will transmit all AWES engagements. All suites will have AWES capability. 
Exercise Control, or EXCON, is a purpose-built control centre that will house all the people, hardware and software required to run WES exercises. Only the Wainwright suite will have an EXCON facility. It will include the computers, databases and software required to conduct Exercise Planning and Preparation (EPP), to monitor capture and record engagement data, and to prepare After Action Reviews (AAR) and Take Home Packages (THP). It will also include the Operator Analysts who will monitor each training exercise and highlight relevant lessons learned as they occur. Using the collected and highlighted engagement data, Army training officers will prepare AARs for the exercising units. 
Communication and Information System, or CIS, is a separate radio system used for the transmission of engagement data between the EXCON and the players in the field. Only the Wainwright suite will have a CIS. 
Contractor Conducted Logistics Support, or CCLS, is the integrated provision of all support and repair services to WES for a ten-year period following final delivery. All suites will include some form of CCLS. 

What is live simulation? 
  
Answer No. 3 - Live simulation occurs when real people use real systems to conduct a simulation. WES is a live simulation system that will permit soldiers to use themselves, their real weapons and their vehicles as simulators. Each weapon will fire blank ammunition that triggers the firing of a laser pulse. Each laser pulse simulates the firing of real ammunition. Laser detectors on the players detect hits or near misses. Virtual simulation of some area weapons will be the only exception to this, where soldiers will fire area weapons that are simulated by computers 


(Source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/wes/questions_e.html)


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## LordOsborne (26 Jul 2007)

Dissident said:
			
		

> Our (Vancouver) platoon was supposed to be able to borrow the equipment and get some simunition rounds for training. That never paned out, due to other constrains, but I have a feeling that simunition is out there if we need it.
> 
> And now that I think about it, they had it all at Cougar Salvo 06. Well, for the door crashers anyway.



I was disappointed by Cougar Salvo 07. The low turnout was understandable and expected locally, but the lack of a live-fire portion AND no simunition made it pretty crappy. And that's without factoring in the weather!

Nfld sapper, thanks for posting that.


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