# .50 on CF helicopters



## Good2Golf

> He also noted the importance of the .50Cal HMG. The TB would not think much of 5.56mm fire. When the C6/7.62mm MG came out, they would concentrate on the gunner's location. When the .50 came out, they would bug off. Evidentally, I am told that they really do not like the .50 IRT its range, stopping power, and sound.



Interestingly, that was also why Aviation went with .50 (M3M/GAU-21, high-rate, ~1200 rd/min) in addition to the wonderful 7.62mm M134D.  Not so much for range beyond GPMG ranges (since it's still crew-served), but for the weight of fire and the type of munitions the .50 can throw down-range.  :nod:

Regards
G2G


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## OldSolduer

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Interestingly, that was also why Aviation went with .50 (M3M/GAU-21, high-rate, ~1200 rd/min) in addition to the wonderful 7.62mm M134D.  Not so much for range beyond GPMG ranges (since it's still crew-served), but for the weight of fire and the type of munitions the .50 can throw down-range.  :nod:
> 
> Regards
> G2G



Not to mention the distinctive sound of a large calibre weapon throwing hot lead on to the bad guys.


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## Good2Golf

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Not to mention the distinctive sound of a large calibre weapon throwing hot lead on to the bad guys.



Mr. Seggie, search YouTube for:  GAU-21 hammering it home

The headspace was nicely adjusted on this one.  The GAU-21/A is a USN/USMC variant of the FN M3M hi-speed .50 cal.  The video doesn't do the sound justice, it sounds more like a C9 on steroids, but up close it sounds more like a small A-10 -- 20 rounds per second!

Regards
G2G


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## OldSolduer

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Mr. Seggie, search YouTube for:  GAU-21 hammering it home
> 
> The headspace was nicely adjusted on this one.  The GAU-21/A is a USN/USMC variant of the FN M3M hi-speed .50 cal.  The video doesn't do the sound justice, it sounds more like a C9 on steroids, but up close it sounds more like a small A-10 -- 20 rounds per second!
> 
> Regards
> G2G



One question: Where can we get a bunch of these to trial them?


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## Good2Golf

Done, and done.   :nod:  

They hit the flight line on Griffons in AFG in late-2010....just didn't have any videos of it in action on our machines.


Regards
G2G


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## OldSolduer

Can you put in a good word for us Infantry guys.....we could use these babies on the ground.





			
				Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Done, and done.   :nod:
> 
> They hit the flight line on Griffons in AFG in late-2010....just didn't have any videos of it in action on our machines.
> 
> 
> Regards
> G2G


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## Danjanou

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Mr. Seggie, search YouTube for:  GAU-21 hammering it home
> 
> The headspace was nicely adjusted on this one.  The GAU-21/A is a USN/USMC variant of the FN M3M hi-speed .50 cal.  The video doesn't do the sound justice, it sounds more like a C9 on steroids, but up close it sounds more like a small A-10 -- 20 rounds per second!
> 
> Regards
> G2G



It appears there are a couple all worth a look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2SIbXksH_U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I99_fXwGPQc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfKKJZ2yGrE


BTWare we getting close to thread split here, with the GAU-21 and the DM trading their own threads?


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## Good2Golf

...and found the goods on a Griffon in AFG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2nDnAerah0


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## OldSolduer

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ...and found on of the goods on a Griffon in AFG:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2nDnAerah0



Wow......wow....
do we have a "Sgt Major drooling" smiley?


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## Good2Golf

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Wow......wow....
> do we have a "Sgt Major drooling" smiley?



How about we put a hat on this guy?  :cam:


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## OldSolduer

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> How about we put a hat on this guy?  :cam:



That's good!!!


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## Ex-Dragoon

Those would be really nice on the bridge wings of a CPF.


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## PJGary

Has anyone seen the GAU-19 3 barrel .50 Gatling gun?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S21EG5cACQA&feature=related


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## Good2Golf

PJGary said:
			
		

> Has anyone seen the GAU-19 3 barrel .50 Gatling gun?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S21EG5cACQA&feature=related



Yes, I've physically seen it fired at GDLS' Ethan Allen ranges in Vermont.  Impressive.  At low-rate (1000), it's actually not as fast as the GAU-21/A, but at high rate (2000) it sounds like an A-10.  Pretty awesome weapon for a crew served system.

Regards
G2G


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## OldSolduer

PJGary said:
			
		

> Has anyone seen the GAU-19 3 barrel .50 Gatling gun?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S21EG5cACQA&feature=related



Ummmmmm....uh......Can I have a dozen please? ;D


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## blacktriangle

I just want to be a door gunner...

I don't care about promotions, spec pay, LDA, PLD...I just want to be a door gunner!!!

 :bowdown: ullhair:


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## PJGary

Spectrum said:
			
		

> I just want to be a door gunner...
> 
> I don't care about promotions, spec pay, LDA, PLD...I just want to be a door gunner!!!
> 
> :bowdown: ullhair:



A while back I had the privilege of sitting in the gunner's seat for a couple hours worth of flight time. Ever since then I have convinced myself that I found my new purpose in life   It also doesn't help that being a door gunner has that deadly illusion that "No really, it could really happen!" as it seems like it's a right place right time kind of gig... I'd do it for free!   ;D


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## Zoomie

Anyone know if this specialist position is an actual MOSID or are they just temporarily filling the positions when needed?  If it becomes a line position at a RCAF unit, I imagine the trade will become blue vice green.


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## Nemecek

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Can you put in a good word for us Infantry guys.....we could use these babies on the ground.




Ugh... Can you carry it then? I don't really want to go bush-bashing with that bad boy slung on my back!


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## Nemecek

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Anyone know if this specialist position is an actual MOSID or are they just temporarily filling the positions when needed?  If it becomes a line position at a RCAF unit, I imagine the trade will become blue vice green.



I've spoke to several guys who have all said it's an Armoured position. Ostensibly, it's so that there's a liason in air to provide info on vehicle movements from the sky. 

Not 100% sure of its veracity but it sounds plausible!


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## PJGary

I know 3 guys who got on, one armoured, two infantry. I have no clue how the selection process is made, as both people I asked said the exact same thing (as previously stated) "Right place right time".  :'(

If it's actually made into a MOSID I would love to see the tsunami of applications...*sigh* including mine. Ha ha!


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## brihard

I have two buddies who are doing this, both infantry reservists on Class B for a couple years. It was literally a matter of the class B opportunities were posted, and quickly snapped up by those who heard of them first. It's temporary positions being filled in because frankly it would be a waste of skilled aircrew to have them sit behind a gun- whereas infantry reservists seeking work are a dime a dozen, and generally are already familiar with MGs to some extent.

One of the guys I know previously did the job on tour. He was sitting on replacement pool in Oscar Coy for TF 3-08 when an NCO walked in and baldly asked "Who wants to be a helicopter door gunner?" He was met with crickets- it sounded too much like a "Who likes ice cream?". Eventually my buddy and a couple other guys cautiously put their hands up- and away they went to be helicopter door gunners.

It's not an armoured position or any such thing- they're door gunners and that's all.


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## Zoomie

The observer position on the Kiowa was an Armoured NCM's job.  That is because they conducted the age-old RAPZ recce with the Loach.


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## Good2Golf

Zoomie said:
			
		

> The observer position on the Kiowa was an Armoured NCM's job.  That is because they conducted the age-old RAPZ recce with the Loach.



Also some gunners too don't forget, given AOP and ABFAC were also LOH tasks, but you're right...mostly armoured, with a number of tankers who OT'd to PLT after serving as observers and seeing how aviation was the best of both Army and Air Force for those so inclined.

There is not a hard DG MOSID, nor do I think there ever will be one.  Qualification, sure.  Trade, no.  

While some may critique LGen(Ret'd) Leslie as being anti-Reserve, this was a case where LGen Leslie as CLS made the case to CAS why he wanted to provide the DG capability primarily through the Reserves as a motivational perk.  There were some RegF DG's, but the majority were PRes folks.

Regards
G2G


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## OldSolduer

Nemecek said:
			
		

> Ugh... Can you carry it then? I don't really want to go bush-bashing with that bad boy slung on my back!


HMGs are not really suited to the dismounted role. You can carry them for short distances. My vision on the HMG is vehicle borne, then dismounted to where its needed, then mount up and carry on....similar to mortars.


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## SeaKingTacco

You will note from my profile photo that:

1) not all door gunners are from the Army

2) not all door gunners are NCMs

3) not all door guns are on green helicopters


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## BDTyre

My tour had at least two reservists as door gunners. They were told in no uncertain terms that it was competitive and they may not make it. Neither did - the guy from my regiment was sent to BG and the guy from FGH came to my platoon. It seems they ended up short, and my regiment got another guy in who actually deployed, and in his words "made a lot of grape juice." The tour was longer too - the TF returned in May, and he returned in August.




			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> I have two buddies who are doing this, both infantry reservists on Class B for a couple years. It was literally a matter of the class B opportunities were posted, and quickly snapped up by those who heard of them first. It's temporary positions being filled in because frankly it would be a waste of skilled aircrew to have them sit behind a gun- whereas infantry reservists seeking work are a dime a dozen, and generally are already familiar with MGs to some extent.
> 
> One of the guys I know previously did the job on tour. He was sitting on replacement pool in Oscar Coy for TF 3-08 when an NCO walked in and baldly asked "Who wants to be a helicopter door gunner?" He was met with crickets- it sounded too much like a "Who likes ice cream?". Eventually my buddy and a couple other guys cautiously put their hands up- and away they went to be helicopter door gunners.
> 
> It's not an armoured position or any such thing- they're door gunners and that's all.


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## Good2Golf

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> You will note from my profile photo that:
> 
> 1) not all door gunners are from the Army
> 
> 2) not all door gunners are NCMs
> 
> 3) not all door guns are on green helicopters



Well SKT, technically, using "from" in the organizationally 'begat' sense, you should only be claiming #2 and #3...


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## SeaKingTacco

Well played, sir!


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## HeavyHooker

DG is becoming an off shoot specialty (similar to Cbt Diver or Jumper) and will most likely be called Air Gnr - with roots to WWII Air Gunners on the bombers.  It will be manned solely by Cbt Arms NCMs, Cpl - Sgt with a WO potentially as section comd.  Tour experience preferred as they are the SMEs on the ground if it were to come to that - which draws on CH147 Afghan experiences.  Tac Hel Sqns on High Readiness will have a section complement assigned to them. No word on how 450 will crack this nut yet.

HH


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