# Lost - Missing Kit ( merged )



## BKells (6 Feb 2005)

I lost my bush cap on a nighttime patrol back in October. I need to fill one of these out, as I understand, but no one in my unit has been able to give me one without me seriously looking hard for it.

1) Can I get a link to an online copy or instructions to procure it
2) What is the policy on lost kit? If I have to pay for the replacement myself anyway, what's the point in haggling with the brass to find this damn form.
3) Estimated cost of a bush cap?


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Feb 2005)

$20 if its the new CADPAT one.  I think it might be too late to fill one out.


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## dw_1984 (6 Feb 2005)

Same thing...tactically misplaced (or stolen) field cap.  Lost in October, submited LKR in December, supposedly receiving new one this Tuesday.

1)  Just keep bugging your CoC for it or go to the OR and see if they have it.  I don't think it's online.
2) The reasoning for the form is so that they don't think you're trying to buy mulitple field caps and selling them on ebay or something.  They pull in 90-100 bucks normally on ebay.
3) I was told somewhere in $15-20 range.


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## Bomber (7 Feb 2005)

Price in Pet in summer of 04 was $18.10


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## nawk (7 Feb 2005)

I'm in the same situation.  I lost my combat shirt back in June.  Actually I don't think I got it in the first place.  After I left ASU getting my basic kit issue, I went home and I found out that I only had 2 shirts, however I signed for 3.  Anyways, I have told various people that I lost it and it was mentioned that I have to fill out a lost kit report but I haven't actually been given one.  Is this one of those situations where I need to take some initiative or else I'll get screwed in the end.  What's the worst that will happen other than having to pay for it?


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## Bomber (7 Feb 2005)

I've never had anything happen, the worst anyone can say is "watch what you sign" and make you pay for the shirt.  This might have been a bit of a failure of the NCO that took you down to your ASU, they should have been watching you like a hawk, especially when you were signing for your initial issue.  Also, when you got home and found out, you should have been right back on the phone or down to the unit to let them know, there might have been a chance that another recruit picked it up, or the supply guys had just dropped it into a pile somewhere.  Or, just stay in the army for 20 more years, eventually a new uniform will com along and the CADPAT will just be written off.  But you almost always acquire stuff on courses and tasking, not from thievery, just bad counting, and people not labelling their kit.  And the washing machines.


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## PteCamp (7 Feb 2005)

K Bell

if you send me a PM I can give you an online link of the lost stores report form, it's my units personal website, but it does have a link to the form that can be printed off.

-KaT


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## theoldyoungguy (18 Mar 2006)

i just need an opinion here from some of the more experienced soldiers on the website.

i recently got back from an exercise and my duffle bag full of kit has been misplaced. i have several witnesses who saw my duffle bag of kit on our vehicle before departure, then when we arrived back home it was missing. my assumption is some of the other soldiers we dropped off accidentally grabbed my bag, or it was offloaded, and forgotten by one of them to be replaced b4 i left and they still have it. so in all likely hood it was a simple mistake. we loaded the vehicle just after last light, and we dropped off those individuals late at night, so it was very dark and we were all sleep deprived making it easier to have lost things. in that duffle bag is almost $1000 worth of kit, (gortex IECS items) that is now missing. i realise it is my responsibility and will accept that responsibility if it comes down to it, but just out of ur opinion, due to the circumstances, do u think the kit will be written off or will i have to pay for it? i ask this due to the high cost of the kit and the circumstances in which it was lost.

thanks for ur advice.


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## Gayson (18 Mar 2006)

Why don't you ask your chain?


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## theoldyoungguy (18 Mar 2006)

i plan on asking on monday, but in the mean time im freaking out over the possibility of losing $1000 i dont have and cant afford to pay, so im just looking for an honest opinion based on experience. so i can either lift some weight off my shoulders, or plan out how im gonna afford this


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## Long in the tooth (18 Mar 2006)

You need to fill out a Preliminary Loss or Damage Report (PLDR) yesterday.  If you are found neglingent the CO can only assess you $250.  This is after an investigation which will be conducted by an assigned Officer or Warrant Officer.

You should already have a detailed list of what is missing as well as the particulars of the incident - who, what, where and when.  If you haven't do it NOW.

In my time working for the CQ and as a Coy Clk I found PLDRs poorly staffed and sat on desks for weeks or months.  I hate to sound paranoid, but keep copies of all correspondence and who and when it was submitted to.  Good luck.


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## armyvern (18 Mar 2006)

Step 1) Get a copy of the Loss Report form from Clothing or your QM and fill in section 1 and 2 (your pers details, list of what you lost and the story as related below);

Step 2) In section 3 you cross out the applicable word in each of the following sentences:
I accept/do not accept responsibility for the loss. and
I accept/do not accept financial responsibility for the loss.

Step 3) If the bag contained anything that is cadpat material or a Clothe the Soldier item...your boss (min rank WO) must sign off at section 4 prior to the next step.

*NEXT STEP:* (I bold this step because some Units love to send the MLR through the CoC for investigation at this point in time which takes forever and is not the way it works)
Step 4) You hand carry your MLR to Clothing Stores and they will re-issue your lost kit immediately. If you accepted financial resp...you will be required to pay the full dollar value of the lost items at the time of re-issue. If you do not accept financial responsibility then Clothing Stores annotates the re-issue req # onto your MLR and assigns it a control # for tracking purposes. You now have your items re-issued and can soldier on.

If you accepted financial that is the end of the process.

If you did not accept financial then:

Step 5) After re-issuing the items Clothing Stores will send your MLR back to your Unit QM on a tracked DND728 document transit and receipt voucher.

Step 6) Your Unit QM will send your MLR the rest of the way through your Chain of Command where ultimately, the CO will either recommend a write-off or recommend an Admin Deduction. Dependant upon whether he finds you negligent or not will decide the amount of the Admin Deduction he recommends...the 250 dollar limit is no longer applicable.

Keep in mind that filing an MLR through the system does not preclude the CO from also taking disciplinary action if he deems it necessary. The MLR process is only an Administrative action. I do not see any recommendations for discplinary action in the scenario that you have detailed below. 

Just get your Section 1, 2, 3 & 4 filled out and get to Clothing so you can carry on.


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## theoldyoungguy (19 Mar 2006)

allright thats soom good advice, thanks.  i plan on filling out a lost report first thing on parade night this wednesday. also i have witnesses that can attest to the fact of the situation and how easy it could have been to loose kit under those circumstances and that its not my fault. how would i best go about attacking a small letter from each of those individuals in support of my claim? or am i better off simply mentioning there names in the lost report and when the CO needs to sign it he simply can either take my word for it or ask the other individuals?


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## armyvern (19 Mar 2006)

When Clothing Stores sends your MLR back to your Unit for it's final processing it will be investigated at that point (before it reaches the CO) if deemed necessary. Obviously your Unit would already be aware of the tasking that you were undertaking at the point in time of the loss and will also be already aware of timings of end-ex/delivery back to Unit.

Your report of incident as related in your original post should be fine.


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## theoldyoungguy (20 Mar 2006)

in any of ur experienced opinion, do u think im gonna be made to pay for this kit, seeing as how the situation was as such in my first post, and i have witnesses to attest to those conditions.


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## qjdb (20 Mar 2006)

Total thread hi-jack, but something that I just HAD to bring up:

Loyaleddie, please use correct English.  It is so hard to read ur (your) posts that a lot of people are probably nt (not) reponding to them, because it gives them a headache.  And capital letters and apostrophe marks are also a good thing. (It is don't, not dont; can't, not cant; won't, not wont; etc).

I think you have been told before, by a moderator, that you should not be doing msn-speak on here, only the Queen's-English.  In the chat room is one thing, but on a full thread, make your English teacher proud.

Just a hint to make your stay here a bit more enjoyable.

Cheers

qjdb


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## George Wallace (20 Mar 2006)

qjdb said:
			
		

> Total thread hi-jack, but something that I just HAD to bring up:
> 
> Loyaleddie, please use correct English.  It is so hard to read ur (your) posts that a lot of people are probably nt (not) reponding to them, because it gives them a headache.  And capital letters and apostrophe marks are also a good thing. (It is don't, not dont; can't, not cant; won't, not wont; etc).
> 
> ...




Yes....That is the truth.  Unfortunately, for all of us Loyaleddie has an attitude that will require adjusting if not rectified.  Replies like this to requests to clean up language and grammar don't go over well:



			
				loyaleddie87 said:
			
		

> sorry im used to trying to type as fast as possible, disregarding proper grammer.



Loyaleddie.......Time to act like a mature soldier and start cleaning up your act.


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## theoldyoungguy (20 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yes....That is the truth.  Unfortunately, for all of us Loyaleddie has an attitude that will require adjusting if not rectified.  Replies like this to requests to clean up language and grammar don't go over well:
> 
> Loyaleddie.......Time to act like a mature soldier and start cleaning up your act.



Wow, sorry, I didn't realise I was offending so many people by trying to save time. I find it kind of silly to be angry over something so mundane or to not make a post due to incorrect English that can be clearly understood, but if I did offend anyone or come across as less than proper I apologize, it was never my intention to do so. I will make an honest attempt to be more proper in these forums, less forgetfulness  As well I don't know what attitude your referring to but again if I have ever offended anyone I apologize I have never intended to do so. I'm only human I make mistakes just like everyone else, if it will mean that I get a response to my posts, then i will redo my posts properly.


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## theoldyoungguy (20 Mar 2006)

Allright by request here is my situation summarized proprely. I lost almost $1000 in kit. This kit could have been misplaced one of two ways.

1. Before departure from the exercise I was at, someone could have removed my kit bag. Possibly to reorganize the van as to make more space available and accidentally forgot to replace my bag or could not see it on the ground as it was dark at this time. This would be the only option from this scenario as I am 100% positive the kit bag was in the van as I loaded it personally before departure.

2. Some of the soldiers we dropped off at their armouries could have done something similar to the first scenario. They unloaded a lot of kit in order to sort through there own and make sure they have everything, they could have easily overlooked my kit bag on the ground as again it was 3-4am in the morning and very dark. However in this scenario I should receive my kit back, excluding the off possibility that everyone did not notice it in the parking lot and left it.

So this is my little problem, and I thank those of you who have responded thus far with your advice, it has been very helpful. The question I leave you with as many of you on army.ca have a lot more military experience than I do is this, assuming my kit is not recovered and I thoroughly explain this situation in the loss report, with 2 people to support my claim from above of the situations at the specific times the kit could have gone missing, do you think I will have to replace this kit at my expense? I ask because of the financial struggle I am in at the moment, this is why I am concerned. I thank you for your experienced thoughts on this.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Mar 2006)

Loyaleddie, I believe what Armyvern suggests and tells you should be taken for near gold.. she runs the base QM here in Gagetown and has MUCHO experience with these type of incidents.  Good luck.

Ps: my Lost/damage report for my $4.70 balaclava will be running through the system shortly Vern.


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## theoldyoungguy (20 Mar 2006)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Loyaleddie, I believe what Armyvern suggests and tells you should be taken for near gold.. she runs the base QM here in Gagetown and has MUCHO experience with these type of incidents.  Good luck.
> 
> Ps: my Lost/damage report for my $4.70 balaclava will be running through the system shortly Vern.



It has entirely been taken at face value and I am extremely greatful for her imput, and it has been extremely helpful in understanding the process. The only remaining question I have would be from her experiences does she think im gonna end up paying for this kit assuming my kit is not found. I am so adament on receiving others thoughts in this due to the financial strain I am in right now, and I am greatly concerned with the thought of paying hundreds if not upwards of a thousand dollers for lost kit. Just concerned at the moment as to whether or not Im gonna have to pay out a large chunk of cash I don't have. Armyvern it is also a relief that no admin action will probably be taken. Just concerned with the monetary factor. Thanks again for your advice.


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## armyvern (21 Mar 2006)

loyaleddie87 said:
			
		

> Armyvern it is also a relief that no admin action will probably be taken. Just concerned with the monetary factor. Thanks again for your advice.


Loyaleddie,

Ultimately the decision on this will rest with your Commanding Officer. Input into Part II of the MLR the details of the events surrounding the loss that you wrote in the original post in this thread. The determination of the outcome of your MLR by the CO will include his/her taking into consideration whether or not he/she believes you to be "willfully negligent" or "partially negligent" or "not negligent." All you can do is relate your details of the loss in Part 2 for him/her to read as part of the MLR when it reaches their level.

Although I do not see grounds for finding you 'willfully negligent" in the loss of this kit, that does not preclude Admin action. An easier way to put it follows:

Willful Negligence: CO can recommend recovery of the full dollar value (Admin Action)and/or appropriate disciplinary action.

Partial Negligence: CO can recommend an Admin Deduction (Admin Action) for partial value of the lost kit items up to a maximum of 50% of the value of the kit or $200.00 dallars, whichever is less. CO may also recommend appropraite level of disciplanary action if he/she feels the circumstances of the loss warrant it.

Not Negligent: CO can recommend write-off of the full dollar value of the kit items if he/she deems that you are not negligent in that the kit items were appropriately under your care and control to the extent possible at the time and circumstance; or that the loss occured due to circumstances beyond your control during the performance of your duties to Her Majesty The Queen.

Ultimately, your statement in Part II of the MLR, and the follow-up statements by your Chain of Command (that will be input by them upon Clothing's returning your MLR to them after your kit re-issue) regarding the circumstances of the events surrounding the loss will be what the CO uses to make his/her recommendations. 

I can not predict what your superiors will input into the sections and therefore I can not predict what your CO will ultimately decide, but experience shows me that most COs do utilize common sense and take into account the circumstances surrounding the loss when determining their decision.


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## armyvern (21 Mar 2006)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Ps: my Lost/damage report for my $4.70 balaclava will be running through the system shortly Vern.


Have you filed it yet? I got your e-mail and your balaclava was recovered from the jacket pocket of the IECS jacket you exchanged for your ICE last Thursday. It is on my filing cabinet awaiting your next visit to our location.

We have also recovered 1 ID Card, 2 sets of car keys, 1 pair of socks, a sewing kit and a couple of other lovely items.


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## Bzzliteyr (21 Mar 2006)

Vern, it was my fleece tuque... not my balaclava!! As for the two sets of MY car keys... I'll be needing those back too.  I was looking at selling those this weekend.


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## theoldyoungguy (21 Mar 2006)

@armyvern, thank you again for your imput it has been very helpful and greatly appreciated. You have put me at a little ease. Thank you.


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## mudgunner49 (21 Mar 2006)

armyvern said:
			
		

> Have you filed it yet? I got your e-mail and your balaclava was recovered from the jacket pocket of the IECS jacket you exchanged for your ICE last Thursday. It is on my filing cabinet awaiting your next visit to our location.
> 
> We have also recovered 1 ID Card, 2 sets of car keys, 1 pair of socks, a sewing kit and a couple of other lovely items.



You DO take care of folks, don't you???!!! 


blake


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## armyvern (22 Mar 2006)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Vern, it was my fleece tuque... not my balaclava!! As for the two sets of MY car keys... I'll be needing those back too.  I was looking at selling those this weekend.



Hmmm...we have recovered Qty 1 each FLEECE BALACLAVA. But seeing as how you are unsure as to whether or not this is yours...tell me:

1) Is there a label with your last 3 and last name in yours? ; and
2) What size is it....

If you can correctly answer these skill testing questions...it's yours.

Seeing as how you were the only pers to contact me at work about an AWOL hat...you may indeed answer them correctly...or not!!  >

One set of car keys has now been claimed so you are out of luck with the dealership you were going to set up. About the second set of keys...what is the make? How many keys are on the key ring and what colour/pattern is the key ring? One incorrect answer and you are eliminated from the contest. Sorry. Gotta be mean here because mudgunner49 thinks I'm nice!


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## Bzzliteyr (23 Mar 2006)

um...the keys were silver in colour..they are for either a import or an export.. obviously..um.. I am not sure if I can describe the keyring to a tee.. but I am on my way over with an X-Large Timmies coffee that I don't feel like drinking anymore.. maybe you can help me? (wink wink)


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## gun plumber (16 Aug 2007)

Hopefully Vern will jump in here, but anyone else with first hand experience is welcome and appreciated. 
The short story is this:
Left my motor gloves in a buddy's car. He went back to Val. My fault, Want to get a new set, take full responsibility for the loss. Do I have to submit a lost kit report if I take full responsibility,or can I just go to the wicket and pay at stores?
Also,am I entitled to a annual issue of close to skin clothing,or am I to bring my holy(not religious,just worn)close to skin kit in for exchange?
Thanks for taking the time to read,and if applicable,replying.


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## George Wallace (16 Aug 2007)

Officially......you are supposed to fill out the Lost Damage Report and submit it.  If the right recommendations are made on it by your supervisor and CO you may have the items re-issued at no cost to you.  If not, then you will have them replace at a cost to you.  

I don't think there are any "Cash Sales" left in any of the Clothing Stores across the country.


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## armyvern (17 Aug 2007)

gun plumber said:
			
		

> Hopefully Vern will jump in here, but anyone else with first hand experience is welcome and appreciated.
> The short story is this:
> Left my motor gloves in a buddy's car. He went back to Val. My fault, Want to get a new set, take full responsibility for the loss. Do I have to submit a lost kit report if I take full responsibility,or can I just go to the wicket and pay at stores?
> Also,am I entitled to a annual issue of close to skin clothing,or am I to bring my holy(not religious,just worn)close to skin kit in for exchange?
> Thanks for taking the time to read,and if applicable,replying.



Fill out the MLR stating "I am a numpty."  >

Under "Accept Responsibility for Loss/ Accept Financial Responsibility for Loss." click "Yes." Take the MLR to your WO or above (it is a CTS item and therefore must have your supervisor's signature -minimum rank WO- in the next section regardless of whether you are accepting financial responsibility or not). 

Once you've got that signature, go back to clothing stores. It depends on your Base Clothing's specific set-up how they recover the funds from you. Here we Admin deduct from pay, but Gagetown maintains a Standing Advance to recover monies directly right at Clothing Stores. IE a Cash Sales. But, the difference is now you just can't buy anything ouright as "Cash Sales" doesn't exist, but most clothing stores have retained a cash ability to deal with monetary recoveries relating to MLRs.

As for your scivvies; also a local policy. I don't want your gotch back here. We'll just issue your entitlement to next of skin items once per entitlement period. Some things you are entitled to exchange once per year, others every two years. It depends on the item. Some bases want you to bring back the waist bands etc for a one-for-one exchange. Sometimes, it's just easier to bring in the worn item, then there should be ZERO question about them exchanging it for you.

My take is ... I don't need your garbage in my trash cans when you can chuck them at home yourself. You'd have to contact your supporting clothing stores to confirm your local policy.


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## gun plumber (17 Aug 2007)

Thanks Vern and GW,

Will fill out the form tommorow and sit in the corner for an hour with the pointy hat for "losing my mittens".


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## armyvern (17 Aug 2007)

gun plumber said:
			
		

> Thanks Vern and GW,
> 
> Will fill out the form tommorow and sit in the corner for an hour with the pointy hat for "losing my mittens".



I'm not so sure about that ...

If someone came to see me with an MLR that stated in the "Circumstances of Loss" section:

"I have lost my mittens for I am a numpty."

I'd be laughing so hard (and YOU have never heard me laugh ... it is indeed a treat for the ears) ... I'd sign the damn thing and kick you out of the office right quick.

Vern


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## gun plumber (17 Aug 2007)

I'll try to reword it a little bit more eloquently,but that's my back up plan.


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## PPCLI Guy (17 Aug 2007)

Don't forget that normally you will not be charged the full amount of kit that has been lost.  There is a range of charges based on the dollar value of the item(s) lost - 

38.03 – ADMINISTRATIVE DEDUCTIONS 
(1) Any circumstances which may give rise to liability of an officer or non-commissioned member to reimburse the Crown or a non-public property organization under article 38.01 (Liability for Public or Non-public Property), shall be investigated (see Chapter 21 – Summary Investigations and Boards of Inquiry). A statement from the member concerned should be obtained if practical. 
(2) Subject to the other provisions of this article, where he is of the opinion that liability under article 38.01 exists and that reimbursement is warranted under the circumstances, an administrative deduction from the pay account of the officer or non-commissioned member concerned in an amount sufficient to make reimbursement in full or in part may be ordered by: 
 (a) a commanding officer, except when
 (i) the amount of the proposed deduction exceeds $ 200, 
 (ii) the officer or non-commissioned member concerned objects on the grounds that the proposed deduction is unwarranted or excessive, or 
 (iii) a loss of or deficiency in public funds is involved; 
 (b) an officer commanding a formation designated by the Chief of the Defence Staff or an officer commanding a command, except when

(i) the officer or non-commissioned member concerned objects to a deduction exceeding $ 50 when proposed by an officer commanding a formation or $ 100 when proposed by an officer commanding a command, on the grounds that the proposed deduction is unwarranted or excessive, or 
 (ii) a loss of or deficiency in public funds is involved; or

(c) the Chief of the Defence Staff, except when the officer or non-commissioned member concerned objects to a proposed deduction exceeding $250 on the grounds that the proposed deduction is unwarranted or excessive. 
(3) Except as provided in paragraph (8), before any administrative deduction is ordered under paragraph (2) or increased under paragraph (9), the officer or non-commissioned member concerned shall be given the opportunity to object on the grounds that the proposed deduction is unwarranted or excessive.
(4) Where wilfulness is not involved and liability arises under subparagraph (1)(a) or (b) or paragraph (2) of article 38.01 only by reason of negligence on the part of an officer or non-commissioned member:
(a) no administrative deduction shall be imposed if the negligence is of a minor character, being negligence that does not involve recklessness, undue carelessness or intentional commission of a wrongful act or an intentional omission to perform a legal duty; or
 (b) where the negligence is not of a minor character, an administrative deduction ordered under paragraph (2) shall not exceed 
 (i) where the amount involved is $ 25 or less the full amount, 
 (ii) where the amount involved is more than $ 25 and not more than $ 100, one-half of the amount or $ 25 whichever is the greater, 
 (iii) where the amount involved is more than $ 100 and not more than $ 300, one-third of the amount or $ 50 whichever is the greater, 
 (iv) where the amount involved is more than $ 300 and not more than $ 500, one-quarter of the amount or $ 100 whichever is the greater, or 
 (v) where the amount involved is more than $ 500, one-fifth of the amount or $ 125 whichever is the greater, subject to the limitation that where liability arises out of his negligence in operating a motor vehicle the deduction shall not exceed $ 250.


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## geo (17 Aug 2007)

I know 1 person who lost one of his mortar gloves.....
The guys in QM gave him a new pair - no fuss, no muss.


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## kincanucks (17 Aug 2007)

Vern,

Dumb question but what is an entitlement period?

kincanucks


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## armyvern (18 Aug 2007)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Don't forget that normally you will not be charged the full amount of kit that has been lost.  There is a range of charges based on the dollar value of the item(s) lost -



TRUE, but *only* in cases where the member does *NOT* accept responsibility at the outset of the MLR process in section 3.

38.03 is currently under review due to the wide range of interpretations being given to it by COs. It is highly misleading as it is applicable only to those members and MLRs where "DO NOT accept financial responsibility" is filled in at section 3 of the MLR process. It wouldn't be misleading if the CO didn't get these MLRs where the member has already "accepted financial responsibility" given to him needlessly. If a member "accepts" financial responsibility at section 3...the CO should NOT see the MLR. The member has admitted personal negligence and it is therefore 100% deductable immediately (with the exception below of the CTS item that a WO or above must then sign at section 4 before a full 100% deduction is made).

For those MLRs where a member has "not accepted" financial resp at section 3, the CoC becomes involved. If the CO determines any negligence on the part of the member and "recommends" a partial dollar value recovery (because COs can only "recommend" partials); then para 3 of your ref becomes applicable and your member must be given an opportunity to either "Accept" or "Not accept" your "recommendation." If he "accepts" the recovery is then made. If he "does NOT accept" ... the MLR then proceeds further up the CoC to the Comd ... who has the authority to "Order" the deduction made if he sees fit. I have seen COs/Comds decide that the member was fully negligent when they've recd an MLR ... and appropriate charges have been laid. An MLR does NOT preclude disciplinary action from being taken in cases of negligence by any pers in the MLRs CoC with appropriate authority to take such action.

Partial dollar values IAW with delegated authority are only applicable in cases where the member "*does not accept financial responsibility*" for the loss. If the member admits loss is caused by his own actions and accepts financial responsibility at section 3; then the deduction from the member is 100%. The taxpayer (the Crown) does not (and is not supposed to) partially cover the costs of the loss for any member who has admitted their full personal negligence.

38.03 that is reffed at the top of the MLR must be read in conjunction with the MLR processing procedures. If a member fills out an MLR in which he accepts financially responsibility for the loss, the MLR does NOT (and should not) have to go through his CoC (exception being CTS items where the WO or above must then sign at section 4) before recovery. The next step in the official MLR procedures in this case, is the return to clothing stores by the member with the MLR to receive the replacement item and have payment deducted. The CO should _never_ see these MLRs, as he has no authority to have the Crown cover partial costs for an item recovery in which the member has admitted his own personal full negligence and officially "accepted financial responsibility" for it. If the CO is seeing them, his time is being wasted.

It's easiest to say that as soon as "financial responsibility" has been accepted on the MLR ... then the MLR process ends. If the member accepts at section 3 as being financially responsible for it (like is occurring in the case below) then 100% deduction is applicable immediately and doesn't involve the CO. It's done right at clothing at that point in time and that's where the MLR stops. 

If he's not "accepting," then it goes through to the CO and if he "accepts" after the COs recommendation ... the MLR process then stops. If he doesn't .... it then goes further to the Comd ... etc etc

This topic comes up quite often during our WGs in Ottawa, as there are many of CSG supervisors who've had to contact a CO to point out that his 'recommendation of a partial deduction' (ie his investigative finding of partial negligence or partial financial responsibility on the members part) was invalid if the member had already self-admittedly fully "accepted financial responsibility" for the loss at section 3. We encounter this situation most often with Units that have their own RQ shop which carries copies of the MLR. For some reason, they neglect the actual MLR processing steps detailed in the ALM007 and have all MLRs sent the whole way through the CoC to the CO, whether they need to be or not. 

The only MLRs that should go further up the CoC after the member inputs his details of loss and acceptance/nonacceptance of loss, are the ones where they are "not accepting financial responsibility" at section 3. If they have accepted financial responsibility, they have admitted 100% negligence in their kit-loss ... and are therefore 100% responsible to cover the costs of replacement themselves ... and should now report direct to clothing stores.


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## PPCLI Guy (18 Aug 2007)

I have never really picked up on the nuance about accepting responsibility before.  Thanks for clarifying that.


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## catalyst (19 Aug 2007)

i am a numpty and somebody walked away with my cadpat shirt while on course...does anyone know the dollar amount that I will have to pay for a replacement of said shirt?


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## niceasdrhuxtable (19 Aug 2007)

$56.00 as of my last run-in with an "accounting error" on my records


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## armyvern (19 Aug 2007)

Catalyst said:
			
		

> i am a numpty and somebody walked away with my cadpat shirt while on course...does anyone know the dollar amount that I will have to pay for a replacement of said shirt?



I'll post it up for you tomorrow when I get back to work.


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## armyvern (22 Aug 2007)

Because I am neglectful ...  :-[

Here's what I promised to provide Monday ...

As of 6 minutes ago:

*Gloves, CWW: $82.00;* and

*Shirt, Cadpat TW: $56.11*
(I know the req for the shirt price was sent via PM, but am answering here in hopes that you will see it...I am currently unable to send PMs).

Vern


----------



## kincanucks (22 Aug 2007)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Vern,
> 
> Dumb question but what is an entitlement period?
> 
> kincanucks



Vern?  Hello is this thing on?


----------



## armyvern (22 Aug 2007)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Vern?  Hello is this thing on?



Oooops, sorry.

I totally missed your post!!

Entitlement period, depends what the specific item is.

There is a certain Life Cycle for each item of kit that is expected.

IE... for footwear, the entitlement period is 2 years. Best explained by those that wear purchased footwear due to medical problems with feet or special-sized ... We are authorized to purchase them 2 pairs of boots every 2 years.

Ergo, your footwear is expected to last 2 years for exchange purposes.

For BTU, the life cycle rate is 1 year. Can therefore purchase the 4 each entitled once per year.

For stocked items, it also depends upon their assigned 'life cycle' rate (an LCMM vice a Supply detail) eg for OD t-shirts, I believe the 'life cycle' is 2 years; therefore you are only entitled to exchange your 5 tshirts once each 2 years. MOST people however, will not experience any problems if they bring the actual worn-out item into clothing with them to be exchanged.

For velcro nametapes, the _life cycle_ is 3 years and your entitlement is 3 each. Therefore you are entitled to have the Crown purchase you 3 each velcro nametapes no more than once every 3 years.

Does this make sense to you?? I don't know how else to go about explaining it.


----------



## geo (22 Aug 2007)

Makes perfect sense Vern.
Someone has figured out that, on average, people wear out their TShirts over a 2 yr period
but that they go thru their BTU twice as fast - hence 1 yr period (must be the toxic food )
Name tags fade in the wash over a 3 yr period.

So long as the people behind the counter use the grey matter they have between the ears (common sense), supply gods need life cycle estimates in order to carry the necessary inventory for the people they serve.


----------



## kincanucks (22 Aug 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Oooops, sorry.
> 
> I totally missed your post!!
> 
> ...



Thanks


----------



## catalyst (22 Aug 2007)

Thank you very much...now I know how much to expect to loose next pay cheque


----------



## Rheostatic (4 Aug 2010)

Can someone post a link where I can download a MLR form? All I'm getting on the DIN are dead links and I can't find anything in the forms library.


----------



## armyvern (4 Aug 2010)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> Can someone post a link where I can download a MLR form? All I'm getting on the DIN are dead links and I can't find anything in the forms library.



They are a locally generated form that is provided by your supporting clothing outlet ...

Here's a link to the basic one; click on "search", type in "MLR", then choose "miscellaneous_loss_report(2)" from the list.

http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dmpp_apps/SupplyManual/WebHelp/index.htm


----------



## Rheostatic (4 Aug 2010)

Thank you.

The dead link I was referring to: http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/ts-st/sup-app/mlsr-rped-eng.asp


----------



## armyvern (4 Aug 2010)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> Thank you.
> 
> The dead link I was referring to: http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/ts-st/sup-app/mlsr-rped-eng.asp



CFSUO ... that's Ottawa; you didn't really think their links would be up to date did you?  8)


----------



## REDinstaller (4 Aug 2010)

Ottawa. Isn't that the home station of Bad idea generation.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Aug 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Ottawa. Isn't that the home station of Bad idea generation.



No, the Good Idea Fairies live there. They have branch offices too.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Aug 2010)

No.  No.  Those are Fairies who think they have good ideas.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Aug 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> No.  No.  Those are Fairies who think they have good ideas.



Maybe so George, but they call themselves Good Idea Fairies. ;D


----------



## REDinstaller (5 Aug 2010)

Is that why the Louis Stand around bldg looks so shiney? From all the Fairy dust.


----------



## PMedMoe (5 Aug 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Is that why the Louis Stand around bldg looks so shiney? From all the Fairy dust.



I think that's Coventry you're thinking of.  _Pink_ fairy dust.


----------



## REDinstaller (5 Aug 2010)

Well DLR is in the St.Laurent bldg, so there must be high concentrations of some kind of dust over there. >


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Aug 2010)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I think that's Coventry you're thinking of.  _Pink_ fairy dust.



Be careful Moe....that's the org I work for!!  >


----------



## PMedMoe (5 Aug 2010)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Be careful Moe....that's the org I work for!!  >



My sister works there.  Civilian accountant for CFPSA.   ;D


----------



## armyvern (5 Aug 2010)

Tango18A said:
			
		

> Well DLR is in the St.Laurent bldg, so there must be high concentrations of some kind of dust over there. >



It isn't pink dust, nor is it fairy dust.

I'm convinced it's angel dust.

 8)


----------



## REDinstaller (5 Aug 2010)

I once did the backbone for a secure system in the LStL. We had to tell the cleaners what floor we were going to be on the day before... so they could clean the ceiling tiles of all the mouse droppings. The bldg is infested with mice, little know fact.


----------



## Sparkplugs (12 Aug 2010)

This deals with yearly entitlements, so I'll ask it...

A little bird once told me that I am entitled to (sports) bra reimbursement, to a tune of about 160$ a year, or 4 bras, whichever comes first?  I know they have to be sports bras, etc, but my questions are these:

I heard a rumour once that, because I'm deployed this year, I'm entitled to double the bra numbers, is this true?

Also, I have my bra receipts magneted to the fridge back home, which were bought before my first deployment in February.  Can they still be submitted when I go home, or have I missed the boat because we're in the new financial year?

Thanks so much for any info.


----------



## PMedMoe (12 Aug 2010)

Yes, your entitlement does double when deploying (I'm sure Vern will have a link for that), however, I think you might be SOL for the receipts from last year as I believe the yearly entitlement must be done in the fiscal year.  See your clerk for further (and probably better) info on that matter.


----------



## armyvern (12 Aug 2010)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> This deals with yearly entitlements, so I'll ask it...
> 
> A little bird once told me that I am entitled to (sports) bra reimbursement, to a tune of about 160$ a year, or 4 bras, whichever comes first?  I know they have to be sports bras, etc, but my questions are these:
> 
> ...



You missed the boat for last FY however, as of 01 Apr --- you are entitled to another $160.00 for this FY and, if you are still deployed and have not claimed against the deployment, you are entitled to a further $160.00.

If I read your post correctly, you are still deployed and have not claimed the 160.00 for this deployment or the 160.00 for FY 10/11. That = $320.00.

Forget the number of bras. It is no longer an issue as per the recent change. The entitlement is 160.00 per FY (and deployment). You can buy 1 X 160.00 dollar bra or 16 X 10.00 $ bras. Tax is NOT included. The taxes are re-imburseable over and above the 160.00. Receipts required.

You can purchase, and claim, while deployed; you do not have to be in-Canada.


----------



## Sparkplugs (13 Aug 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You missed the boat for last FY however, as of 01 Apr --- you are entitled to another $160.00 for this FY and, if you are still deployed and have not claimed against the deployment, you are entitled to a further $160.00.
> 
> If I read your post correctly, you are still deployed and have not claimed the 160.00 for this deployment or the 160.00 for FY 10/11. That = $320.00.
> 
> ...



Shweet, thank you so much, Vern!  I guess I have some shopping to do when I get home...   ;D


----------



## flyingfeakguy (9 May 2011)

Would be possbile to get a link for the lost kit form?


----------



## flyingfeakguy (9 May 2011)

Does anyone know what form you need to fill out to report lost kit? also links if possible.


----------



## PMedMoe (9 May 2011)

Let me know if this works.

http://dgmssc.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dmpp_apps/SupplyManual/WebHelp/Forms_and_reports/miscellaneous_loss_report(2).htm


----------



## PMedMoe (9 May 2011)

flyingfeakguy said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what form you need to fill out to report lost kit? also links if possible.



Posted here for you already:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26386.0.html


----------



## flyingfeakguy (9 May 2011)

thanks, is there another link, that one doesn't work


----------



## Rheostatic (9 May 2011)

It's a DWAN link.


----------



## Pusser (9 May 2011)

A Stores Loss Report is a locally produced form.  They're all basically the same, but there are variations from base to base.  Clothing Stores should have one available for you.

Once the Report is completed and submitted, they should issue the replacement piece of kit.

Now I'm going to let folks in on a badly kept secret.  Clothing Stores cannot force you to pay for lost kit.  Only the Chain of Command can do this and there is supposed to be proof of willfulness or negligence.  The applicable regulations are QR&O 38.01 and 38.03.  If you lose equipment on a field exercise (due to the chaos that usually reigns for instance), and you can show that you took every reasonable precaution to look after it, then you shouldn't have to pay for it.  Part of the Stores Loss Report is a line for the member to object on the grounds that the projected recovery is "unwarranted or unreasonable."  If the member the objects, then the CO cannot order a recovery.  If it goes to the next level, the Formation Commander can only order a recover of $50 (Commander of a Command, $200 and the CDS, $250).  A pertinent part of the QR&O 38.03 states:

(a) no administrative deduction shall be imposed if the negligence is of a minor character, being negligence that does not involve recklessness, undue carelessness or intentional commission of a wrongful act or an intentional omission to perform a legal duty;...

Having said this, BE CAREFUL!  Consider how badly you want to fight this before you proceed.  There is always the possibility that the CO could order an investigation and if you are indeed found negligent, you could end up both paying for the item and getting charged under the Code of Service Discipline.  Regulations can be such a double-edged sword!

The reason I bring this up is because I have seen too many CF members get rail-roaded into paying for things that were actually lost through the normal day to day dealings of the CF.  If something is lost or damaged through no fault of your own, you shouldn't have to pay for it.  My best example was the case of a young sailor who lost his floater coat (an expensive item).  He had hung it on the hook where he was told to hang it and it disappeared.  As the Supply Officer, my recommendation to the CO was "write-off with no recovery action."  It wasn't the sailors fault that something was put away properly and then disappeared. The CO approved the write-off.


----------



## Ducal (16 May 2011)

So after parade I left my tac vest where everyone leaves there kit before entering.

Afterwards, before I decided to head home, I went to pick it up. It was no longer there. I went to the commissionaires to ask if they've seen a stray tac vest, they haven't heard or seen one.


Now I'm thinking I'm screwed. I'm going to head to ASU tommorow to file a lost kit report, am I going to have to pay for a replacement vest?


----------



## OldSolduer (16 May 2011)

Ducal said:
			
		

> So after parade I left my tac vest where everyone leaves there kit before entering.
> 
> Afterwards, before I decided to head home, I went to pick it up. It was no longer there. I went to the commissionaires to ask if they've seen a stray tac vest, they haven't heard or seen one.
> 
> ...


1. Info chain of Command
2. Lost Stores Report required
3. MPs may be notified to investigate

Was your kit marked with your name and last three of the SN?
You MAY be required to pay for the lost TV.


----------



## ballz (16 May 2011)

There's only one thief in the army.... everybody is just trying to get their kit back 

Hopefully you had your name and last 3 on there in a obvious spot and the CoC can just ask everybody to check their kit and it was all just a mix-up.


----------



## Pusser (16 May 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> 1. Info chain of Command
> 2. Lost Stores Report required
> 3. MPs may be notified to investigate
> 
> ...



If your kit is properly marked and you put it where you've been told to put it.  If it then goes missing, you should not have to pay for it.  Check out QR&O Chapter 38.  The bottom line is that in order to be held accountable for a loss of public property, you have to have been willful or negligent.


----------



## Ducal (16 May 2011)

Sorry let me clarify some things, I posted in this thread while I was just skimming the forum. 

-I'm in PRES
-My kit was marked
-My helmet and BEW was also taken
-Like I mentioned, it was taken out of the mess after parade

I've informed my CoC.

I do hope I won't have to pay out of my pocket for all that. But if I do end up having to pay for said kit, how will that work out? How will I end up paying? I'm a little worried about how I can fork out the money before my course in June.


----------



## OldSolduer (16 May 2011)

Ducal said:
			
		

> Sorry let me clarify some things, I posted in this thread while I was just skimming the forum.
> 
> -I'm in PRES
> -My kit was marked
> ...



Good. IMO you were not negligent as it sounds like the common practice is to store your kit with everyone else's. 

As for having to pay for it, I can't answer that as an investigation has to take place.


----------



## Pusser (16 May 2011)

In order to get new kit issued, all you have to do is complete the Stores Loss Report (i.e. do it soon).  Once you've submitted the form, Supply can issue new kit.  You should not have to wait for an investigation to be completed.  Nor should you have to pay for it first (as that can take awhile).  The bottom line is that if you need certain kit in order to do your job, the system has to give it to you.  Supply cannot hold it for "ransom" waiting for you to pay for the lost items.

Payment is normally made by administrative deduction from pay, but:

*Read Chapter 38 of the QR&O*:  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/doc/chapter-chapitre-038.pdf

Chapter 38 is short, but somewhat convoluted in its wording.  In layman's terms though:

1)  You *must* be given the opportunity (i.e. there should be a spot on the form) to object to any proposed recovery and you are allowed to object to payment on the grounds that it is unwarranted or unreasonable (e.g. payment would be unwarranted if you were not negligent or willful in the loss - unreasonable would be paying full value for an item that was old and at the end of its life)

2)  Your CO can, in effect, only "suggest" you pay up to $200.  He/she has no authority to order a deduction in any amount if you choose to object.

3)  The formation commander can only order up to $50.

4) the Commander of a Command can only order up to $100.

5)  The CDS can only order up to $250.

Having said all this, one needs to think about this.  If you were not negligent or willful, then by all means object.  There are many folks that are of the belief that if you lose something you pay for it and it's as simple as that.  This is not the case and so it's worth fighting if you run into folks who simply expect you to pay.  I've given you the ammunition for that fight.  

However, if you *were* negligent or willful in the loss, you're better off paying for it and hoping it goes away.  The alternative would be a charge under the Code of Service Discipline for negligence.  If found guilty, it could cost you more than if you'd just paid for it.  The CF can recover amounts greater than $250, but it then becomes a legal vice an administrative process.  In other words, you can't drive a truck off the end of a jetty on purpose and only expect to pay $250.

The regulations can protect you from being railroaded, but they can't protect you from being a negligent or willful idiot.  Clear as mud?


----------



## Ducal (16 May 2011)

ACK

I appreciate the help and information.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 May 2011)

First off, when you fill out the form, *DO NOT* agree to accept responsibility and *DO NOT* agree to pay for it. Otherwise you're just making it a slam dunk for them to recover the cost.


----------



## Robert0288 (17 Apr 2012)

To avoid starting a new thread.  Does anyone have a working link to a lost kit report form for the NCR?


----------



## Occam (17 Apr 2012)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> To avoid starting a new thread.  Does anyone have a working link to a lost kit report form for the NCR?



http://cfsuo.mil.ca/sites/page-eng.asp?page=11489  (DWAN only)

Look for "Miscellaneous Loss Report".


----------



## Robert0288 (17 Apr 2012)

Thanks


----------



## CRIT (22 Jan 2015)

Will someone be so kind as to post a list of kit that is required to be returned during the release process.  Also, does anyone know if kit can be purchased from supply rather that returning it?  I have a few non-cadpat items that I would hate to part with. i.e. flight suit and combat boots.

Thanks!


----------



## LightFighter (22 Jan 2015)

Base clothing stores should be able to give you a list of what doesn't need to be returned, etc. The base release section may have that sheet as well.

Items classified as next to skin items(eg underwear, t-shirts), boots(some types or all?), DEUs, and maybe a couple other items you can retain on release. 

No idea if you can keep a non CADPAT flight suit, I would assume it is operational kit and would be returned.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (22 Jan 2015)

Go to your QM and ask them for a copy of your clothing docs. Ask them to highlight what you have to bring back. You cannot buy kit, but if you lose it, you'll have to pay for it. Typically, at highly inflated prices. Your unit will likely also have to do a lost\stolen kit investigation for operational kit. You will be quite involved in that process.


----------



## MJP (22 Jan 2015)

The list of items that can be retained by a releasing mbr is governed by the Supply Administration Manual (SAM)  Section 5 Deliver 5.5 CLOTHING AND PERSONAL EQUIPMENT Annex A

*Note: ALL ITEMS with Disruptive Pattern (CADPAT) in either Temperate Woodland (TW) or Arid Region (AR) MUST BE returned to clothing stores.*

Retention Items
3. The items listed below are to be retained by all Regular Force and Reserve Force members who have completed 12 months service prior to being released.
a. All DEU clothing
b. All non-operational maternity clothing
c. All accoutrements
d. All socks (except gortex)
e. Sewing kit
f. Belt trousers green cloth webbing material
g. All Boots (excluding special purpose boots that can be re-issued i.e., firemen boots climbing boots, chainsaw boots, hazmat boots, lineman boots and mukluks)
h. Cap knit, green, black, blue, midnight blue, Canadian average green
i. Cap knit, Cadets, black, blue, green
j. Cap knit, Quebec Medical Tech - burgundy
k. Cap knit, Junior Canadian Rangers - dark green
l. Drawers including Army Light Weight Thermal Drawers (LWTD)
m. Undershirts including Army Light Weight Thermal Underwear (LWTU)
n. Shirts black, Military Police
o. Trousers and slacks black, Military Police
p. Shirts, Dental and Medical
q. Trousers, Dental and Medical
r. Sandals
s. Towels
t. Berets
u. Handkerchiefs
v. Swim wear (trunks/suits)
w. T-Shirt athletic
x. Shorts athletic
y. Med Tech “On Car” Uniforms

4. The following items, listed on 431(AD) Sqn local Scale of Issue, may be retained by members of the Snowbird Demonstration Team:
a. Flight Suit Red
b. Flight Suit Blue
c. Flight Jacket Dark Blue
d. Garment Bag
e. Sausage Bag


----------



## Brasidas (23 Jan 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Go to your QM and ask them for a copy of your clothing docs. Ask them to highlight what you have to bring back. You cannot buy kit, but if you lose it, you'll have to pay for it. Typically, at highly inflated prices. Your unit will likely also have to do a lost\stolen kit investigation for operational kit. You will be quite involved in that process.



Iirc from when I released several years ago, there are limitations on how much can be charged to the member for missing kit, in terms of a proportion of the full cost and an absolute cap.  I was charged between $50-$60 for windpants. RQ had me wait out a week, re-confirm that I couldn't find them, and wrote it off with minimal hassle.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Jan 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Go to your QM and ask them for a copy of your clothing docs. Ask them to highlight what you have to bring back. You cannot buy kit, but if you lose it, you'll have to pay for it. Typically, at highly inflated prices. Your unit will likely also have to do a lost\stolen kit investigation for operational kit. You will be quite involved in that process.



Its not inflated prices its the price as listed in Canadian Government Catalogue System (CGCS) the same value the items are written off as when lost or stolen during a MLR process. 

As stated previously go to your supporting clothing stores, request a copy of your clothing docs with the items required for return highlighted.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Jan 2015)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Its not inflated prices its the price as listed in Canadian Government Catalogue System (CGCS) the same value the items are written off as when lost or stolen during a MLR process.



The binos we were issued about 15-20 years ago were listed for around $500-$600, IIRC.

We found the exact same binos, same model #, etc, in a camera shop around the corner from the armouries for $100 new. If I was buying 20,000 pair, I'll bet they could be had for 50 cents on the dollar. 

I would suggest that DND, TB or the GoC is not doing their due diligence when they go shopping.  But that's just me. I don't know how that system really works.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Jan 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The binos we were issued about 15-20 years ago were listed for around $500-$600, IIRC.
> 
> We found the exact same binos, same model #, etc, in a camera shop around the corner from the armouries for $100 new. If I was buying 20,000 pair, I'll bet they could be had for 50 cents on the dollar.
> 
> I would suggest that DND, TB or the GoC is not doing their due diligence when they go shopping.  But that's just me. I don't know how that system really works.



The issue is we don't take into account the degraded value of a piece of kit while being used.  Unfortunately the point behind the whole thing is to procure a replacement for the lost piece we need to pay full price for a new piece.  I'm not willing to get into how broken our procurement system is though.  I run a procurement cell right.


----------



## George Wallace (23 Jan 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I would suggest that DND, TB or the GoC is not doing their due diligence when they go shopping.  But that's just me. I don't know how that system really works.



They have their 'contracted' and 'approved' suppliers.  I do not think that DND, TB or the GoC bother to investigate and ensure that those suppliers are indeed fulfilling their contractual obligations to apply discounted rates.   The  3K USD hammers purchased by the USAF years ago is but one example how government does not verify that a supplier is not inflating the price of their products.  That case was an example, if I remember correctly, of the media conducting an access to information investigation and exposing government inefficiencies.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Jan 2015)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> The issue is we don't take into account the degraded value of a piece of kit while being used.  Unfortunately the point behind the whole thing is to procure a replacement for the lost piece we need to pay full price for a new piece.  I'm not willing to get into how broken our procurement system is though.  I run a procurement cell right.



But full price, on civvie street was only $100, so at most, that's all a replacement should cost, right? Where does the other $4-$500 go, for a single set of binos? 

I'm getting confused. :facepalm:


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Jan 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> But full price, on civvie street was only $100, so at most, that's all a replacement should cost, right? Where does the other $4-$500 go, for a single set of binos?
> 
> I'm getting confused. :facepalm:



In this specific example I would NSNs to investigate it further.


----------



## MJP (23 Jan 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The binos we were issued about 15-20 years ago were listed for around $500-$600, IIRC.
> 
> We found the exact same binos, same model #, etc, in a camera shop around the corner from the armouries for $100 new. If I was buying 20,000 pair, I'll bet they could be had for 50 cents on the dollar.
> 
> I would suggest that DND, TB or the GoC is not doing their due diligence when they go shopping.  But that's just me. I don't know how that system really works.



Because they were probably that price 15-20 years ago when they were originally purchased or entered into CGCS.  No one has updated the entry probably in years.  They also could have been misidentified and associated with a higher cost item.  



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> They have their 'contracted' and 'approved' suppliers.  I do not think that DND, TB or the GoC bother to investigate and ensure that those suppliers are indeed fulfilling their contractual obligations to apply discounted rates.   The  3K USD hammers purchased by the USAF years ago is but one example how government does not verify that a supplier is not inflating the price of their products.  That case was an example, if I remember correctly, of the media conducting an access to information investigation and exposing government inefficiencies.



Standing Offer Arrangement SOA and Supply Arrangement SA.  They a quick and expediant way to get goods from an "approved" contractors.  In the following commodities it is mandatory to use SOA.  
N84: Clothing, Individual Equipment and Insignia
N58: Communication, Detection, and Coherent Radiation Equipment
N91: Fuels, Lubricants, Oils and Waxes
N71: Furniture
N70: General Purpose Automatic Data Processing Equipment (Including Firmware), Software, Supplies and Support Equipment
N23: Ground Effect Vehicles, Motor Vehicles, Trailers and Cycles
D3: Information Processing and Related Telecommunication Services
N74: Office Machines, Text Processing Systems and Visible Record Equipment
N75: Office Supplies and Devices
R: Professional, Administrative and Management Support Services 
Sub-categories:
RO: Professional Services
R1: Administrative and Management Support Services
R2 : Personnel Recruitment

I have seen a few highball prices from them mostly in the electronic area because the tech changes so fast that the contracted price is often outdated and priced lower but generally the majority of the stuff I see ordered is at some discount compared to the general public.

The beauty of an SOA is that we don't have to screw around getting quotes if the items are on SOA.  Case in point my unit just got approved for a Vote 5 purchase in excess of $30k in mid Jan.  Anyone with procurement experience know that is to late to engage PWGCS.  Luckily the major item we are after is on an SOA, the vendor is bending over backwards to get it to us before End Mar.  My compatriot down the road had to turn down their approved Vote 5 because no SOA exists for what they want.  It isn't perfect, it might not always be cheaper, but it is faster (or can be).  I just wish Mukluks were on one.....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (23 Jan 2015)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> In this specific example I would NSNs to investigate it further.



Can't give you that. I'm retired and I think they've changed binos at least once, maybe twice since then. Don't worry about it. It's not important, but thanks for offering to look into it.


----------



## Pusser (26 Jan 2015)

Just because items look the same, doesn't mean they are the same.  Items sold to the military may have been altered to meet additional specifications that the civilian model doesn't.  Whether that results in a different model number, is up to the manufacturer.  They may choose to keep it under the same model number (and track the military items by lot or batch instead) as their regular item because the spare parts list is identical.  The model number could also simply have a modifier.

Having said this, whenever an administrative deduction is proposed, the member always has the right to object on the grounds that the proposed charge is excessive or unwarranted.  For example paying the replacement cost of well-used item may be considered excessive, so a the depreciated value may be more appropriate.  That often flies.

QR&O Chapt 38 is worth reading.


----------



## Lightguns (26 Jan 2015)

Best to get a list from your QM, I did.  I got a whole pile of crap I will not have to drive but it will require a good yard sale to clean out.


----------



## BinRat55 (13 Aug 2015)

I know it's been a few months and I don't mean to resurrect an old post, however I wanted to add my 2 cents worth of experience - hopefully if someone else was to read this it wouldn't be so... confusing...

Many of your comments are quite accurate, but reading the thread, we go from apples to oranges to thermonucleardynamics!

When I want to return my crap to Clothing due to a retirement / release, only Clothing stores can tell you what you have that's returnable. Boots for instance - brand new we will take back. If there is a footprint inside, we will punch a hole in the tongue and it's yours. There are several other items that the Clot storesman can make a call on while at the counter. IF there are items "lost" then at the time of "discovery" an MLR should be raised with Clothing Stores. I feel the need to clarify that at no point does an RQ have authorization to write anything off your Clothing Docs.

This is the next point I need to clarify... QR&O Vol 1, 38.03 Administrative Deductions actually reflect the depreciation of kit over time - to a degree. You will see that if a member is held responsible for an item valued in the CGCS at $350.00, the CO may suggest a pay deduction of 1/4 or $100.00 whichever is greater. 1/4 of 350 works out to 87.50, so you will pay 100 bucks for a 350.00 item. This works for pretty much everything. Now keep in mind a few things - at any point a controlled or restricted item CAN be subject to an MP or even CSIS investigation, so be careful. Binos? Usually a controlled item subject to CTAT and ITAR. I won't get into that. The other thing is that the CO of your unit can only SUGGEST a pay deduction. You have the opportunity to disagree in writing on the MLR, but note that it will then go to the Base Commander. Weigh the pros and cons of this BEFORE you go off causing poop just because you want that bug net.

Lastly, introduction of new items into the system. And how the prices actually work. The "dudes" in Ottawa we call Supply Managers have many NSNs they are responsible for. If an item is issued to you at no cost to your unit (no FIN code is required) it is usually depot stocked. We call this "centrally managed". Any item NOT in the system, but your unit wants you to have it, on approval we call this "locally managed" - meaning FIN code required. For the pricing of the items in the depot (centrally managed) the $$ figure is actually an algorithm. Easy enough - 4 years ago, the depot in Montreal was short the binos in question, so Supply manager received a ROB (Recommended Order Buy) He / She then went ahead and purchased say 100 sets at $200 a set. 3 months later, another ROB was received from the depot in Edmonton for 25 sets. Because the qty was lower than the stipulated contractual agreement, DND paid $450.00 a set. Now when you average the two buys in both Qty and $$ amt, we get a reset price of $250.00 set. Make sense? So when you see the price on the MLR or in the CGCS, it's not referring to the actual consumer cost, it refers to what DND actually paid for the kit over many years and many purchases.

Sorry for the length of this, but I just wanted others to be better informed on how parts of my world actually works. If anyone has any questions at all I am happy to engage in a conversation. Been doing this for over 25 years and enjoy it very much. I like to think I know as much as Vern, but most times she just puts me in my place...


----------



## TCM621 (19 Feb 2016)

Can someone help me find a lost stores report form. It has been awhile since I needed one and god help me if I can find one on the DIN. I have been searching for a week now. Thanks in advance.


----------



## MJP (19 Feb 2016)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Can someone help me find a lost stores report form. It has been awhile since I needed one and god help me if I can find one on the DIN. I have been searching for a week now. Thanks in advance.



They are locally reproduced, your Unit/Base Supporting Supply Organization will have their local copy for you.  There is no generic CAF form although there is talk of one.


----------



## Journeyman (19 Feb 2016)

The first step will be reporting that you've lost the form.    ;D


----------



## Occam (19 Feb 2016)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Can someone help me find a lost stores report form.



For which base?


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The first step will be reporting that you've lost the form.    ;D



Do you have a copy of the form for that?


----------



## TCM621 (19 Feb 2016)

Occam said:
			
		

> For which base?


CFB Comox


----------



## BinRat55 (19 Feb 2016)

Wing Clothing Stores. It's their job. If that doesn't work, PM me and I will most definitely sort it out. I know them well.


----------



## BinRat55 (19 Feb 2016)

For that matter, let me pass on a little advice to everyone reading this. IF your loss involves kit on your IA (Individual Account A.K.A Clothing Docs) then report to your Clothing Stores and request the latest copy. Sometimes they change (if only a little) but those who seek this form elsewhere can often stumble one we haven't used in years! There are actually legal ramifications to the system if certain info were not included on an MLR. Plus, the MLR clerk doesn't bust a blood vessle when they receive an MLR form created in 2002 when it's 2016!

Bottom line is - if your issue is Clothing - related, go see Clothing!


----------



## George Wallace (19 Feb 2016)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> For that matter, let me pass on a little advice to everyone reading this. IF your loss involves kit on your IA (Individual Account A.K.A Clothing Docs) then report to your Clothing Stores and request the latest copy. Sometimes they change (if only a little) but those who seek this form elsewhere can often stumble one we haven't used in years! There are actually legal ramifications to the system if certain info were not included on an MLR. Plus, the MLR clerk doesn't bust a blood vessle when they receive an MLR form created in 2002 when it's 2016!
> 
> Bottom line is - if your issue is Clothing - related, go see Clothing!



 [

Don't tell me that you guys are like the Commissionaires at 101 who have you wait for an hour before calling you up to the window, spend fifteen minutes verifying all the info on your paperwork for a Building Pass and then circle the document number/date at the bottom and tell you that they can not process you........ >


----------



## BinRat55 (19 Feb 2016)

MJP said:
			
		

> They are locally reproduced, your Unit/Base Supporting Supply Organization will have their local copy for you.  There is no generic CAF form although there is talk of one.



That would be soooooo nice. The crap I go through on a daily basis because not one base in Canada does it the same way. To heck with the right way - not one person seems to know THAT!! At least if we were all doing it the wrong way the same, it would work better... know what I mean?


----------



## BinRat55 (19 Feb 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> [
> 
> Don't tell me that you guys are like the Commissionaires at 101 who have you wait for an hour before calling you up to the window, spend fifteen minutes verifying all the info on your paperwork for a Building Pass and then circle the document number/date at the bottom and tell you that they can not process you........ >



I'm sorry George, but before I wittingly retort to your comment, I will need you to fill out a Form 67, DND 466 and a CF192 (in triplicate). Sit patiently at your desk for 3 weeks, then check to see my response.

That will be all sir.


----------



## MJP (19 Feb 2016)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> That would be soooooo nice. The crap I go through on a daily basis because not one base in Canada does it the same way. To heck with the right way - not one person seems to know THAT!! At least if we were all doing it the wrong way the same, it would work better... know what I mean?



We produced one that we use within the unit that actually follows the rules in the references and is fairly user friendly.  Makes our job much easier.  Gave it to the base and they gushed over it and then did nothing.  Can't help some people although purportedly this APS I can help fix that issue (for the base that is).


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## Occam (19 Feb 2016)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> CFB Comox



DWAN link:  http://comox.mil.ca/din_locl/organizations/wing_logistics/supply/forms.aspx

6th document down

Amended 5 November 2015, so if there's a newer version out there, the ink isn't dry on it yet.


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2016)

Occam said:
			
		

> DWAN link:  http://comox.mil.ca/din_locl/organizations/wing_logistics/supply/forms.aspx
> 
> 6th document down
> 
> Amended 5 November 2015, so if there's a newer version out there, the ink isn't dry on it yet.



Don't you mean "the link isn't dry"?


----------



## BinRat55 (19 Feb 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Don't you mean "the link isn't dry"?



 :facepalm:


----------



## Occam (19 Feb 2016)

Well, if you're going to go that far, I would probably say "the link is so new that it hasn't had a chance to get broken yet by _Treasury Board_ Common Look and Feel v.169 web reorganization efforts".   ;D


----------



## dapaterson (19 Feb 2016)

Occam said:
			
		

> Well, if you're going to go that far, I would probably say "the link is so new that it hasn't had a chance to get broken yet by _Treasury Board_ Common Look and Feel v.169 web reorganization efforts".   ;D



This year's PER: Mastered leading change by breaking the unit website again.


----------



## Steve_D (19 Feb 2016)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry George, but before I wittingly retort to your comment, I will need you to fill out a Form 67, DND 466 and a CF192 (in triplicate). Sit patiently at your desk for 3 weeks, then check to see my response.
> 
> That will be all sir.



And don't forget the cover letter for the TPS Reports. You got the memo, right?


----------



## kratz (19 Feb 2016)

NavyPhoenix said:
			
		

> And don't forget the cover letter for the TPS Reports. You got the memo, right?



The You and George are sounding like a pair of HRAs.   [


----------



## BinRat55 (19 Feb 2016)

NavyPhoenix said:
			
		

> And don't forget the cover letter for the TPS Reports. You got the memo, right?



Yea, the memo... I believe it was CRPA'd. I will send up the requisition to have that released next week. George buddy you're gonna hafta wait till I read that. Might be a while...

This is fun!


----------



## George Wallace (19 Feb 2016)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Yea, the memo... I believe it was CRPA'd. I will send up the requisition to have that released next week. George buddy you're gonna hafta wait till I read that. Might be a while...
> 
> This is fun!



Will I need to dig out an old stack of 1028's and submit?


----------



## BinRat55 (23 Feb 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Will I need to dig out an old stack of 1028's and submit?



Um yeah George I'm gonna get you to go ahead and raise that 1028... but I have no bloody clue where to send it. What are we doing again? I'm on coffee. Back in 30!


----------



## brokendude (1 Aug 2018)

I'm releasing in a few weeks and have an appointment scheduled to return all my kit to base supply/clothing next week.   Can anyone please tell me accurately what the policy is or what happens if I cannot find all of my kit to return?   I cannot find several items, including rain jacket & rain pants, cadpat daybag, bivvy bag and ranger blanket, and seem to be missing 1 set of combats top and bottom.  I have everything else ie: rucksack, sleeping bags, helmet, tacvest, fragvest etc.  What happens if I cannot locate and return these items?


----------



## trooper142 (1 Aug 2018)

brokendude said:
			
		

> I'm releasing in a few weeks and have an appointment scheduled to return all my kit to base supply/clothing next week.   Can anyone please tell me accurately what the policy is or what happens if I cannot find all of my kit to return?   I cannot find several items, including rain jacket & rain pants, cadpat daybag, bivvy bag and ranger blanket, and seem to be missing 1 set of combats top and bottom.  I have everything else ie: rucksack, sleeping bags, helmet, tacvest, fragvest etc.  What happens if I cannot locate and return these items?



Cadpat uniforms are controlled and have to be reported to the MPs. Depending who you talk to, that includes the rain jacket and pants, because it carries the cadpat pattern, but I'm not exactly sure about that

As for the other stuff, you'll have to likely fill a lost report and will be charged for the more expensive items. They don't usually care for small stuff, but you'll have to discuss that with them.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Aug 2018)

[quote author=broken dude]   I cannot find several items, including rain jacket & rain pants, cadpat daybag, bivvy bag and ranger blanket, and seem to be missing 1 set of combats top and bottom.
[/quote]
Lol
Can't find it eh?  No one will believe that. 
You're going to have to pay for that stuff, a few hundred dollars at least, and hope the military police don't start an investigation on you.


----------



## trooper142 (2 Aug 2018)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Lol
> Can't find it eh?  No one will believe that.
> You're going to have to pay for that stuff, a few hundred dollars at least, and hope the military police don't start an investigation on you.



This was my thoughts as well, but I didn't want to say it lol!

This list of missing stuff does certainly look suspicious to say the least, might warrant a look! Dollar amount is easily over 500$, given the coat and pants themselves are close to 400$ 

But I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt to the member and say that the missing items, which for the most part is on the side of nicer items issued; was actually lost and not just "missing"


----------



## medicineman (2 Aug 2018)

brokendude said:
			
		

> I'm releasing in a few weeks and have an appointment scheduled to return all my kit to base supply/clothing next week.   Can anyone please tell me accurately what the policy is or what happens if I cannot find all of my kit to return?   I cannot find several items, including rain jacket & rain pants, cadpat daybag, bivvy bag and ranger blanket, and seem to be missing 1 set of combats top and bottom.  I have everything else ie: rucksack, sleeping bags, helmet, tacvest, fragvest etc.  What happens if I cannot locate and return these items?




Bring your cheque book.

MM


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## dimsum (2 Aug 2018)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Bring your cheque book.
> 
> MM



Serious question - do people still use those?!


----------



## medicineman (2 Aug 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Serious question - do people still use those?!




Yup - I still have rent to pay monthly, and when I cleared out for the last time, had to bring mine because there were some missing items.  The Receiver General likes cheques still.

MM


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## brokendude (2 Aug 2018)

I have been told there is a maximum dollar amount authorized to be charged when items of issued kit are not returned and reports are done.


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## trooper142 (2 Aug 2018)

brokendude said:
			
		

> I have been told there is a maximum dollar amount authorized to be charged when items of issued kit are not returned and reports are done.



That doesn't negate the MPs from investigating the losses, even if there is a maximum reimbursable amount.

My recommendation would be to continue looking, so you don't open yourself to unnecessary scrutiny.


----------



## brokendude (2 Aug 2018)

What happened was I was injured on an exercise and had to be transported to a local hospital for treatement immediately.   When I was taken to the hospital in the safety vehicle, all my kit remained at the site of training.   Several days later, I received most of my kit back, except my daybag which had my rainsuit, ranger blanket inside bivvy bag, one full set of combats, extra pair of boots, goretex socks, field hat etc.   Essentially a full days worth of dry clothing along with sleeping gear.   This was a few years back and I evidently never filed the report.  I have been injured since that day and not deployed to field, therefore I have not gone through my kit since. So I had completely forgotten about it until now that Im medically releasing and trying to find and organize all my kit to turn back in.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Aug 2018)

Shitty deal dude.  You may get some people to collaborate your story but there's going to be a lot of questions about you not noticing you didn't have a rain jacket or only 2 sets of uniforms in a few years I would guess.


----------



## PuckChaser (2 Aug 2018)

Just write that up on the loss report, you'll be fine.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Aug 2018)

brokendude said:
			
		

> What happened was I was injured on an exercise and had to be transported to a local hospital for treatement immediately.   When I was taken to the hospital in the safety vehicle, all my kit remained at the site of training.   Several days later, I received most of my kit back, except my daybag which had my rainsuit, ranger blanket inside bivvy bag, one full set of combats, extra pair of boots, goretex socks, field hat etc.   Essentially a full days worth of dry clothing along with sleeping gear.   This was a few years back and I evidently never filed the report.  I have been injured since that day and not deployed to field, therefore I have not gone through my kit since. So I had completely forgotten about it until now that Im medically releasing and trying to find and organize all my kit to turn back in.



If that's the case, your med file should also have that on it (injury, date, etc).  I was injured once, they cut my parka and combats off me at the BHosp in Lancaster Park, I don't remember what happened to my boots.  Once I clued in later on, after being released from the BHosp and all that, I submitted a MLR/LKR whichever you want to call it, explained what happened and how my stuff was cut off me, etc and I didn't pay a cent and my SOI was topped back up.


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## brokendude (2 Aug 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If that's the case, your med file should also have that on it (injury, date, etc).  I was injured once, they cut my parka and combats off me at the BHosp in Lancaster Park, I don't remember what happened to my boots.  Once I clued in later on, after being released from the BHosp and all that, I submitted a MLR/LKR whichever you want to call it, explained what happened and how my stuff was cut off me, etc and I didn't pay a cent and my SOI was topped back up.



Yes, everything about the injury is on file.  Hence why I am being medically released.


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Aug 2018)

Best of luck 'on the other side'.


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## brokendude (2 Aug 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Best of luck 'on the other side'.



Thank you!  Cheers


----------



## Pusser (3 Aug 2018)

Chapter 38 of the QR&O covers your liability and requirement to pay.  It's complicated and horribly outdated, but it is nevertheless, the rule.  In a nutshell, the maximum anyone can ever be ORDERED to pay is $250 and that has to go to the CDS!  Having said that, there is nothing precluding the Department from going after the whole amount of any loss, they would just have to go through a legal process to do it (in layman's terms, get a court order).  It is also worth noting that the regulations specifically mention that negligence is a key element in finding a member liable - no negligence or even only minor negligence should result in no requirement to pay.  There is a strong argument to say that any negligence in this case would be minor in nature.

Whatever you do, don't let the guy on the counter tell you that you have to pay then and there.  You MUST be given the chance to object on the grounds that the proposed deduction is "excessive or unwarranted."


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## Halifax Tar (3 Aug 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Chapter 38 of the QR&O covers your liability and requirement to pay.  It's complicated and horribly outdated, but it is nevertheless, the rule.  In a nutshell, the maximum anyone can ever be ORDERED to pay is $250 and that has to go to the CDS!  Having said that, there is nothing precluding the Department from going after the whole amount of any loss, they would just have to go through a legal process to do it (in layman's terms, get a court order).  It is also worth noting that the regulations specifically mention that negligence is a key element in finding a member liable - no negligence or even only minor negligence should result in no requirement to pay.  There is a strong argument to say that any negligence in this case would be minor in nature.
> 
> Whatever you do, don't let the guy on the counter tell you that you have to pay then and there.  You MUST be given the chance to object on the grounds that the proposed deduction is "excessive or unwarranted."



100% right.  I have dealt with JR Sup Techs on power trips who think they can scare people with high dollar amounts.  

Also your CO is the deciding factor as per recovery or not.  Not some Cpl at the clothing stores counter.

The stated QR&O has that reference and so does the Supply Admin Manual (SAM).  Unfortunately I am on leave and camping or I would provide you the SAM ref as well.


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## Pusser (3 Aug 2018)

Notice how it's the Navy guys who are telling folks how to defend themselves against excessive or unwarranted payments for lost kit?

Coincidence, or are we just nicer?   ;D


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## Halifax Tar (3 Aug 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Notice how it's the Navy guys who are telling folks how to defend themselves against excessive or unwarranted payments for lost kit?
> 
> Coincidence, or are we just nicer?   ;D



How about compassionate ? Lol


----------



## A Very Cold Fire (15 Oct 2018)

Hey everyone, I just finished my first BMQ weekend as a reservist and got issued my kit, however I didn't get a ride and I ended up having to bring all my equipment home via public transport. Somewhere along my trip, I being the idiot I am managed to lose one of my mortar gloves, or whatever the gloves that are black on the inside and green on the outside are called. I need to get it replaced before my next BMQ or else I feel I'm going to get ripped a new one, does anyone know how much it costs and how to get one replaced?


----------



## mariomike (15 Oct 2018)

A Very Cold Fire said:
			
		

> I didn't get a ride and I ended up having to bring all my equipment home via public transport.



I assume you have done so already, but in case you have not, you may call the Lost and Found of the transit service.


----------



## A Very Cold Fire (15 Oct 2018)

Already tried, they Haven't seen anything. I think I need to have it replaced, but I have no idea how much it costs. Is it possible to have only one glove get replaced?


----------



## Pusser (15 Oct 2018)

A Very Cold Fire said:
			
		

> Already tried, they Haven't seen anything. I think I need to have it replaced, but I have no idea how much it costs. Is it possible to have only one glove get replaced?



Just go to your QM, file a stores loss report and tell them what happened.  They'll issue you a new pair.  You're not the first and you won't be the last to go through this.  Crap happens.  Consider that it may have fallen out at the armoury and that someone picked it up and turned it in.  One can dream!  If it is actually lost, see what I wrote above about QR&O Chapt 38.  At the very least, you should only be asked to pay 50% of the cost of a new pair.


----------



## A Very Cold Fire (15 Oct 2018)

Alright, thanks for the advice! 50% sounds very reasonable. Do you think I'll be able to get them in time for BMQ in two weeks?


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Oct 2018)

Do you not have contact info for your staff? Call your Sect Comd and explain the situation, and ask what you should do next. Nobody knows your unit/course staff, so we cannot tell you how and when you'll get new gloves or the paperwork required specifically by your course.


----------



## brokendude (24 Oct 2018)

Just an update.   I recently was found to be responsible for the loss of my kit, even though I was literally hospitalized and not present when it went missing.   CO ordered me to pay full maximum of $250.  What a greasy move.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (24 Oct 2018)

A Very Cold Fire said:
			
		

> Already tried, they Haven't seen anything. I think I need to have it replaced, but I have no idea how much it costs. Is it possible to have only one glove get replaced?



That would require another set being split somewhere else along the line, so typically no. (Although I personally know of one instance when I worked in Supply where an item in a set was damaged and the good item was switched out to a member who was in a similar situation as you. That isn't the norm though as everything needs to be accounted for.)


----------



## MJP (24 Oct 2018)

brokendude said:
			
		

> Just an update.   I recently was found to be responsible for the loss of my kit, even though I was literally hospitalized and not present when it went missing.   CO ordered me to pay full maximum of $250.  What a greasy move.



You don't have to accept the CO's decision and can refuse.  The CO/UNIT will then need to staff it higher.
QR&O 38.03 is your friend here.  I am on mobile but do a site:army.ca search on Google for the QR&O. Some good posts out there and in this thread by Pusser earlier to your original posts


----------



## 211RadOp (25 Oct 2018)

MJP said:
			
		

> You don't have to accept the CO's decision and can refuse.  The CO/UNIT will then need to staff it higher.
> QR&O 38.03 is your friend here.  I am on mobile but do a site:army.ca search on Google for the QR&O. Some good posts out there and in this thread by Pusser earlier to your original posts



Link to 38.03
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-38.page#cha-038-03


----------



## Pusser (25 Oct 2018)

brokendude said:
			
		

> Just an update.   I recently was found to be responsible for the loss of my kit, even though I was literally hospitalized and not present when it went missing.   CO ordered me to pay full maximum of $250.  What a greasy move.



A commanding officer has absolutely NO authority to order that administrative deduction.  He can ask, but he can't make you.  QR&O 38.03 (Administrative Deductions) states:

(2) Subject to the other provisions of this article, where he is of the opinion that liability under article 38.01 exists and that reimbursement is warranted under the circumstances, an administrative deduction from the pay account of the officer or non-commissioned member concerned in an amount sufficient to make reimbursement in full or in part may be ordered by:

a.  a commanding officer, *except* when 

    i.  the amount of the proposed deduction *exceeds $ 200*,

   ii.  the officer or non-commissioned member concerned *objects on the grounds that the proposed deduction is unwarranted or excessive*, or

   iii.  a loss of or deficiency in public funds is involved;


It is perhaps convoluted, but this effectively means that a CO cannot order an administrative deduction in ANY amount.  All the member has to do is object.  If the member objects, the CO has no choice but to forward this up chain of command.  QR&O 38.03 goes on to state that a Formation Commander can only ORDER a deduction of $50, a Commander of a Command $100 and the CDS $250.  At each level the member can object, which forces the issue to the next level.  The buck (well, 250 of them) only stops at the CDS.

It is also worth noting that QR&O 38.03 also states:

(3) Except as provided in paragraph (8), before any administrative deduction is ordered under paragraph (2) or increased under paragraph (9), *the officer or non-commissioned member concerned shall be given the opportunity to object on the grounds that the proposed deduction is unwarranted or excessive*.

(4) Where wilfulness is not involved and liability arises under subparagraph (1)(a) or (b) or paragraph (2) of article 38.01 only by reason of negligence on the part of an officer or non-commissioned member:

a.  *no administrative deduction shall be imposed if the negligence is of a minor character, being negligence that does not involve recklessness, undue carelessness or intentional commission of a wrongful act or an intentional omission to perform a legal duty*; or

b.  where the negligence is not of a minor character, an administrative deduction ordered under paragraph (2) shall not exceed i.where the amount involved is $ 25 or less the full amount,

   ii.  where the amount involved is more than $ 25 and not more than $ 100, one-half of the amount or $ 25 whichever is the greater,

   iii.  *where the amount involved is more than $ 100 and not more than $ 300, one-third of the amount or $ 50 whichever is the greater*,

   iv.  where the amount involved is more than $ 300 and not more than $ 500, one-quarter of the amount or $ 100 whichever is the greater, or

   v.  where the amount involved is more than $ 500, one-fifth of the amount or $ 125 whichever is the greater, subject to the limitation that where liability arises out of his negligence in operating a motor vehicle the deduction shall not exceed $ 250.


The CO in question (if what the OP is saying is true) seems to have missed the mark on a number of points.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Feb 2019)

Question about LSRs and return policy.

A member is issued a rucksack, with all the components including pockets. 

The member has to return the item but is missing a pocket.  The member is told the item complete is considered a kit so he has to put in a LSR for the whole item and would be charged money for the whole set up and not just a pocket. 

If the member submits the LSR for the lost pocket/kit and has to pay whatever % for the whole kit does the member hold on to the rest of the kit since he's "paying for it" or would he have to return all the other parts, even though he's technically paying for it?


----------



## Pusser (12 Feb 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Question about LSRs and return policy.
> 
> A member is issued a rucksack, with all the components including pockets.
> 
> ...



You should turn in what you have, but the loss report should explain in detail what happened.  There is no way you should (or actually can) be held accountable for the cost of the entire kit.  See the above posts.  Your CO cannot order you to pay anything (although he can ask nicely).  You always have the right to object and you can in fact offer to pay a depreciated value (i.e. the cost of the missing pocket).  There is not a Stores Section in the entire CAF that does not have a bin full of replacement parts scavenged from other rucksacks that have been turned in with missing pieces.  A replacement pocket can be found for sure!


----------



## krisvdv89 (20 Feb 2020)

I realize this post is older however I thought I try asking here. 

Long story short, I'm a new guy that got all this exciting and awesome army stuff before BMQ. I was told by the store's person that they didn't have a gas mask in my size in stock and that they will call me when one comes in. In my excitement of getting all this stuff, I signed without realizing that she marked that I did get a gas mask. Fast forward a few months later I had to borrow a gas mask from my unit for BMQ and I am attempting to get a hold of a Loss and Damage kit form. My CoC is aware of my situation and I have talked to our QM. I'm getting the sense that our QM doesn't really like new guys and it has been a struggle and a half to get this form. My question is if I could just go to the clothing store and get the form from them? would this be considered stepping over the CoC? 

Thank you all for your time in answering this question!

The Clueless New Guy,


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Feb 2020)

krisvdv89 said:
			
		

> I realize this post is older however I thought I try asking here.
> 
> Long story short, I'm a new guy that got all this exciting and awesome army stuff before BMQ. I was told by the store's person that they didn't have a gas mask in my size in stock and that they will call me when one comes in. In my excitement of getting all this stuff, I signed without realizing that she marked that I did get a gas mask. Fast forward a few months later I had to borrow a gas mask from my unit for BMQ and I am attempting to get a hold of a Loss and Damage kit form. My CoC is aware of my situation and I have talked to our QM. I'm getting the sense that our QM doesn't really like new guys and it has been a struggle and a half to get this form. My question is if I could just go to the clothing store and get the form from them? would this be considered stepping over the CoC?
> 
> ...



I wouldn't consider that to be stepping over lines. You have to fill the form out and give it to your chain of command to justify the write off. At the same time, you might be able to clarify with stores about the accidental issuing of a mask. They may be able to look and see that they actually didn't have any in stock at the time and just take it off your docs.


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## krisvdv89 (20 Feb 2020)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I wouldn't consider that to be stepping over lines. You have to fill the form out and give it to your chain of command to justify the write off. At the same time, you might be able to clarify with stores about the accidental issuing of a mask. They may be able to look and see that they actually didn't have any in stock at the time and just take it off your docs.



Understood, Thank you so much. I'm trying to navigate my way through this and be independent. I also don't want to step on any toes or go about this the wrong way.


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