# 50 cal accident: using a round as a hammer



## Petard (12 Jun 2010)

Came across this one the other day, thought it might be a useful topic on the utility, or futility, of safety bulletins.
A soldier decided to use the base of a 50 cal round to hammer a mount pin into place, and almost lost his hand in the process. Consequently a safety bulletin was put out to warn soldiers not to do this.
To some it might seem like these kind of bulletins are unnecessary, yet these incidents do happen, and with larger calibre weapons too operated by a crew.
So I think these kind of bulletins serve their purpose, if nothing else to remind leaders/supervisors just how incredibly foolish their charges can be.
So for those who require more supervision than others....
http://soldiersystems.net/2010/06/03/13414/


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## Occam (12 Jun 2010)

That's quite the wound.


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## Neolithium (12 Jun 2010)

I'm rather speechless reading that, and somewhat surprised there is that much of his hand left.


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## TN2IC (12 Jun 2010)

And he won the sperm race.  ;D


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## Teeps74 (12 Jun 2010)

Yep, gruesome indeed. This went up in our Armouries Weds afternoon, and all over our place of work.

Best to learn from other people's mistakes.  Hopefully, the young soldier involved is on the road to recovery, and will keep as much of his hand as possible.


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## Journeyman (12 Jun 2010)

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> .....and will keep as much of his hand as possible.


Otherwise it will be difficult to shake hands with the presenter when receiving his Darwin Award  ;D


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## Illegio (12 Jun 2010)

Saw this at work on Friday. I'll admit that I've hammered my fair share of C6/C9 pintle mounts on the LAVs, though I can't say that I've ever laid hands on live ammunition for the job. I suppose it could have been a lot worse if he had been mounting a Mk. 19...


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## 1feral1 (12 Jun 2010)

That poster was actualy passed within the Aussie DRN a few weeks back for widest distribution.

Plain stupidity cost this soldier's right hand, and there is without a doubt this ended in amputation.

Personally, there is nothing funny about it, and re-inforces the potential damage which can occur in the tampering with ammunition.

We've all seen what can happen, for example, with the unauthorised use of CF T-flashes and arty sims, which in the past, demonstrates the same calibre/level ignorance here.

If you think this is just another US issue, think again.

OWDU


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## medicineman (12 Jun 2010)

I for one love to read the Safety Digest - some useful tidbits in it as well as people that make you feel somewhat smarter when you're having a no neuronal activity day.  I've treated the odd safety digest short story over the last number of years  :.

MM


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## Rogo (12 Jun 2010)

Sad part is that he probably used his dominant hand.  Losing the other would not of been as bad haha


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## McD (12 Jun 2010)

Good Golly. Now I am interested, I'll preface this by say I have no exposure such trauma or munitions, other than some EMT training which clearly has nothing to do with munitions or weapons...

Clearly a powerful blast. But can someone guess at what destroyed his hand? What I really care to know is was his hand destroyed as it  was acting place of a "barrel" or "chamber" OR simply the proximity to the blast from the casing ? In this instance could anyone speculate if there would be a casin left?

Which leads me to the real query as I am no gun smith, what materials / material making processes make up the parts of the weapons system that contain this energy?  OR  should I just shut up and take it for what it is? 

I FEEL DUMB ASKING DONT RUB IT IN  Or go for it, I can just imagine the facial expressions of some here, I don't mind a good well placed jive. 

If my terminology is off take this as my apologies in advanced.


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## DexOlesa (12 Jun 2010)

I would say that the actual bullet part of the round most likely would have been clear of his hand when he was holding it (its a fairly large round) The shockwave/ high pressure gas, would have ripped him apart. If you put your finger next to the chamber of a revolver even just 38 special, you will blow that finger off with the gas escaping from the side.

Disclaimer: Not a weapons tech, just an avid hunter/ target shooter


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## SeanNewman (12 Jun 2010)

McD said:
			
		

> But can someone guess at what destroyed his hand?



The mechanics of what would have happened is that holding the round like a hammer, the ball projectile itself would have never touched his hand.  It would have been extended beyond the other side of his hand (non hammer side) and would have kept going in that direction.

However, the very long casing in his hand now becomes kind if like a mini jet engine that blasts its force and explosive energy toward the side that he was hammering.  This would have pushed the blast through his hand, which would have more than likely been very tightly closed if he was trying to smash something with it.

The mach-speed empty casing arguably would have been more of a danger than the bullet, although both would have killed someone.


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## aesop081 (12 Jun 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> The mechanics of what would have happened is that holding the round like a hammer, the ball projectile itself would have never touched his hand.



That is not necesarily true. I just tried holding a similar object to accomplish the same task and thet soldier involved could very well have been injured by the bullet itself.

You give stupid too much credit.  ;D


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## SeanNewman (12 Jun 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> ... the soldier involved could very well have been injured by the bullet itself.



I agree with you that he could have been shot by the bullet, *but in his face or body*, not in the hand he was holding it with.

[/CSI wannabe]


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## aesop081 (12 Jun 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> [/CSI wannabe]



I see.

I'm holding a replica bullet slightly smaller than a .50cal...........if it went off while i was using it to hit somthing, the bullet would go through my hand.

Wish i could take a picture right now.


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## DexOlesa (12 Jun 2010)

I dunno, I have fairly large hands and holding a 50 it might have a little bit of the bullet inside my hand but it would be right at the neck. Anyways I think the likely answer to his question is exploding case/ high pressure gas did the lions share of the damage


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## kkwd (12 Jun 2010)

The cartridge case is not designed to contain pressure when unsupported by the chamber of a firearm. It will expand to form fit the chamber of the weapon when fired. So if it doesn't have a chamber to support it the relatively soft metal may rupture in any direction. Then again the primer may blow out and release the pressure. So it is a crap shoot and you may get lucky or injured.


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## Kat Stevens (12 Jun 2010)

Exactly, without the constriction of the chamber to direct the blast energy, the round is effectively a mini pipe bomb with a lead plug in the end.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Jun 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Exactly, without the constriction of the chamber to direct the blast energy, the round is effectively a mini pipe bomb with a lead plug in the end.


That's the way I see it also. Hand wrapped around the casing, bullet facing out (and outside the hand) while he was striking the base against the end of the pin.

I have a dummy .50 right here and everything fits. The case would have split.


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## Rogo (13 Jun 2010)

I think we can agree though, regardless of what damaged the hand or how likely this is to of happened.  It should never of been attempted and we are lucky the bullet didn't strike someone intelligent.  We just thinned out the military gene pool slightly.


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## 1feral1 (13 Jun 2010)

Rogo said:
			
		

> I think we can agree though, regardless of what damaged the hand or how likely this is to of happened.  It should never of been attempted and we are lucky the bullet didn't strike someone intelligent.  We just thinned out the military gene pool slightly.



This 'apparent' attitude touched a nerve with me.... he is one of us, and regardless of how this happened, he has been horribly disfigured.

Dude, I first I found your reply at Post No 9 (''Sad part is that he probably used his dominant hand.  Losing the other would not of been as bad haha)" rather tastless, then another dig in the above quote.

Great - you're actually poking fun at something as traumaitc as this. Although the incident is an act of stupidity, inexperience, complaciency, or lack of supervision or all of the 'above', if you knew this guy as one of his platoon mates, or are a relative, or even the medical staff that had to work on this soldier, I don't think you would be too happy with such an unappropiate comment.


Its not MASH on TV, or a movie, this is REAL!

To learn from something from this accident is a valued point for any of us, but to make fun and have a laugh at someone's loss of their hand, and that of a soldier of allied force, and one deployed in theatre is another.

Remember he was over there on operations as you were eating pizza, watching Two And 1/2 Men, all in the safety of your own home.

Summing up, Mr 19yr old ROTP (according to your profile) - pathetic!

OWDU

EDITed for spelling.


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## SeanNewman (13 Jun 2010)

I see both sides on this one.  Yes it's one thing to make fun of someone for being stupid, but at the same time you're right that this guy is now seriously disfigured (crippled even) because of this.

That's a pretty steep price to pay for a stupid mistake.

How many of us A Type personalities who post on this board have never done anything stupid?  Ever cut wood without glasses when you could have gone blind?  Ever went on your roof with no safety rope when you could have fallen and broken your neck?


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## Occam (13 Jun 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I see both sides on this one.  Yes it's one thing to make fun of someone for being stupid, but at the same time you're right that this guy is now seriously disfigured (crippled even) because of this.
> 
> That's a pretty steep price to pay for a stupid mistake.
> 
> How many of us A Type personalities who post on this board have never done anything stupid?  Ever cut wood without glasses when you could have gone blind?  Ever went on your roof with no safety rope when you could have fallen and broken your neck?



I agree we probably all took liberties with our own safety as part of growing up (and some of us well into adulthood), but bashing something with an explosive object?

I blame the generations of kids who've grown up not knowing Looney Tunes...


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## 57Chevy (13 Jun 2010)

kkwd said:
			
		

> The cartridge case is not designed to contain pressure when unsupported by the chamber of a firearm. It will expand to form fit the chamber of the weapon when fired. So if it doesn't have a chamber to support it the relatively soft metal may rupture in any direction. Then again the primer may blow out and release the pressure. So it is a crap shoot and you may get lucky or injured.



correction..........."will rupture in all directions".  No crap shoot there.

ie..........large caliber booby traps


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## mariomike (13 Jun 2010)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> To learn from something from this accident is a valued point for any of us, but to make fun and have a laugh at someone's loss of their hand, and that of a soldier of allied force, and one deployed in theatre is another.



That is the way I feel. He was disfigured and disabled in the Line of Duty.


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## Armymedic (13 Jun 2010)

57 Chevy,
The wording put down by kkwd where it is said that the explosive force will rupture the casing in any direction is technically correct.

The explosive force will exert pressure in all directions equally on the diameter of the casing, but the casing will rupture at its weakest point, sending that force in any direction.

He was holding the round in an underhand grip as it detonated, in his right hand with the base and primer toward his midline. And it was the casing, not the round that cause this damage.

BTW, in my opinion. the most he could have possibly retained of his right hand would be his thumb, index finger, and if his plastic surgeon is really good, his middle finger as well.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Jun 2010)

Rogo said:
			
		

> I think we can agree though, regardless of what damaged the hand or how likely this is to of happened.  It should never of been attempted and we are lucky the bullet didn't strike someone intelligent.  We just thinned out the military gene pool slightly.



For a POTENTIAL future Officer in the CF...you should follow the example of current Officers sometimes.

MAYBE once you actually put a pair of fuckin' combat boots on, get your hands dirty and actually do something in the military othan that apply for ROTP  : you'll understand why its ignorant to say stuff like this.

Ever been awake for a few days, running on little food, in really hot or cold temps, with hard timings to meet?  On GOOD days, people make mistakes.  Ever been nervous before?  Did you consider this was possibly a soldier with little experience?  Or who had a bad go the day before and was jittery about to go out on another op?

Think before you post.  If you make it thru the training, deploy somewhere one day with your platoon, and one of them does this exact same thing...you gonna look him/her in the face and say that??

You fuckin' pennies need to listen/learn more, talk/open your cake hole less most times.


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## 57Chevy (13 Jun 2010)

SFB said:
			
		

> 57 Chevy,
> The wording put down by kkwd where it is said that the explosive force will rupture the casing in any direction is technically correct.



"will rupture" as opposed to "may rupture"


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## Retired AF Guy (13 Jun 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> For a POTENTIAL future Officer in the CF...you should follow the example of current Officers sometimes.
> 
> MAYBE once you actually put a pair of ******' combat boots on, get your hands dirty and actually do something in the military othan that apply for ROTP  : you'll understand why its ignorant to say stuff like this.
> 
> ...



I agree with you and Wes on this one. It was a stupid accident and the person involved is going to be reminded of it every time he goes to shake hands or have a meal. A friend of mine who was #2 on a mortar crew and was slow pulling his hand back after dropping the round down the tube - lost his middle finger for his tardiness. Another guy I knew lost half his hand in the same way. Hell, I had done the same thing, fortunately it was a training round and didn't have enough velocity or I could have lost a couple fingers or worse. All it takes is moment of thoughtlessness and you end up paying for it for the rest of life.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Jun 2010)

Please stop splitting hairs over "shall/may/will", we're not debating QR&Os here.  This is an example of a ruptured cartridge, and pretty much is typical of how a casing splits, if your holding on to it, you're in for some pain.


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## DexOlesa (13 Jun 2010)

No i agree what Rogo said was ill conceived and in poor taste. However there is a difference between being a half step behind on getting your hand out of the way when firing a mortar (simple, bad timing, bad luck) and using a live round of ammunition as a hammer (stupidity, or unforgivable ignorance.)


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## PanaEng (13 Jun 2010)

+1 EITS.

Agree with SFB; the casing will/may (if the crimp is weak, it may just spit the bullet out) rupture near the neck/projectile crimp area (ussually, or the weakest spot as per Kats picture).
I've seen a .50 cook off (in a fire) and the bullet went about 10', the casing, split on one side from the crimp down to the middle, flew about 20' and the primer cap flew about 15' striking a piece of wood and leaving a 1/4" dent in it.

The explosive in the primer is enough to cause half of that damage. The propellant is a slower explosive and will build the pressure until the casing splits (even if the primer cap blows off - too much gas expanding)
But there really is no way to predict how the parts will react and what damage they can do (unless you are holding the darned thing) ; the round could be projected further or the casing or the cap.

anyway, just my anecdotal experience coupled with some formal knowledge ;-)
Hopefully the guy can keep his middle and index finger as well as his thumb. It looks like they already had done some cleaning/flushing of the wound.

CFSME (in Chilliwack) used to have tons of pictures of explosive accidents and bridging accidents to instill the fear/respect for the job into the tq3/officer cadets students. I haven't seen them around here in Gagetown.

cheers,
Frank


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## Petard (13 Jun 2010)

An interesting observation, I think those kind of posters definitely should be put up especially in the CTC Schools

The point I was trying to make in starting this post was not to draw attention to this act itself, but to whether or not anyone thinks these bulletins are usefull or not when it seems like they're only stating the obvious.
To give another for instance, the artillery school is about to put out something similar, some of which is to deal with what was pointed out in this old thread
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/87764.0.html
And yet I've heard from those trying to assemble the information that the feedback from users is they think derisively of the idea as being nothing more than egg-sucking 101, in other words why bother putting them out in the first place.

I suppose so long as there's been soldiers some of them have made incredibly stupid decisions, sometimes because of fatigue or stress of the moment, but in some cases, like maybe this one, perhaps out of ignorance.
It comes down to one of those motherhood Sergeant major type of things, where to steer ones' charges in the right direction a cautionary tale is given, usually proceeded with the words "if you keep doing that you'll end up like so n so that ..."
I think these kind of bulletins are very usefull, and its important to give an actual incident to make the message hit home; it gives those those trying to sort this kind of thing out a clear non urban myth example.


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## Rogo (13 Jun 2010)

I am sorry for my comments last evening, I had a good nights sleep and read what everyone wrote today and agree and will admit I did consider circumstances and being just ROTP I have the least right to post here compared to everyone else here.

I apologize guys.

I will try to keep my comments in better taste in this thread awell as another where I made a very unnecesary comment.

Have a good weekend everyone.


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## 57Chevy (13 Jun 2010)

For an idea of the released pressure involved in this unfortunate accident, check out the video on the link. At the same time check out some of the other videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIi1Nw6GUZ4&feature=related


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## 1feral1 (13 Jun 2010)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> No i agree what Rogo said was ill conceived and in poor taste. However there is a difference between being a half step behind on getting your hand out of the way when firing a mortar (simple, bad timing, bad luck) and using a live round of ammunition as a hammer (stupidity, or unforgivable ignorance.)



We don't know the factors leading to this tragic event, just what he did, and the outcome.  Either way, the soldier injured is one of us.

Using live ammo as tools is not new, It was not that long ago, the 5.56mm ball rd was openly used as a take-down tool (to push in the take down pins on the reciever, and to be ued to remove the firing pin retaining pin) for the M16A1 rifle, and it was right in the manual.

OWDU


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## McD (13 Jun 2010)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> +1 EITS.
> 
> Agree with SFB; the casing will/may (if the crimp is weak, it may just spit the bullet out) rupture near the neck/projectile crimp area (ussually, or the weakest spot as per Kats picture).
> I've seen a .50 cook off (in a fire) and the bullet went about 10', the casing, split on one side from the crimp down to the middle, flew about 20' and the primer cap flew about 15' striking a piece of wood and leaving a 1/4" dent in it.
> ...



This helped quite a bit. And posed many other questions (unrelated to this accident) which I am on the hunt for right now. Much appreciated.


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## aesop081 (13 Jun 2010)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> CFSME (in Chilliwack) used to have tons of pictures of explosive accidents and bridging accidents to instill the fear/respect for the job into the tq3/officer cadets students. I haven't seen them around here in Gagetown.



Frank, CFSME (in Gagetown) still had them when i left in 2004.


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## chrisf (13 Jun 2010)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Using live ammo as tools is not new, It was not that long ago, the 5.56mm ball rd was openly used as a take-down tool (to push in the take down pins on the reciever, and to be ued to remove the firing pin retaining pin) for the M16A1 rifle, and it was right in the manual.



Still plenty of PAMs instructing such kicking around.


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Jun 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Frank, CFSME (in Gagetown) still had them when i left in 2004.



Like everything else Pat, I think they got archived in one the dark recesses of the school.........


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## Jarnhamar (14 Jun 2010)

Rogo said:
			
		

> Sad part is that he probably used his dominant hand.  Losing the other would not of been as bad haha



Maybe you'll loose a hand somewhere and we can all have a laugh about it.


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## NavyShooter (14 Jun 2010)

Forwarded to the .50 operators on my ship last week.

There were some hard looks at it and surprise that someone could have that big of a momentary lapse in judgement.

NS


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## aesop081 (14 Jun 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Maybe you'll loose a hand somewhere and we can all have a laugh about it.



The guy apologized at reply #34........move on !


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## Rogo (15 Jun 2010)

No it's okay, I understand I said something in poor taste and that people may just of stumbled onto the thread now.  But once again guys I am sorry and do not feel good about my comment. I will leave it at that.


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## Jarnhamar (15 Jun 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> The guy apologized at reply #34........move on !



Now that I've got my jab in I'll be happy too!
Plus, it's building character. Look at how well he's wearing the abuse- I'm actually impressed. Aren't you? 
Looks like he's salvagable.


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## armychick2009 (15 Jun 2010)

Having worked in the health & safety industry for many years (forestry and nuclear), it's amazing to see the damage that can happen so quickly and the lifelong effects it can have on people (and their families). Part of my job was to prepare safety alerts and industry alerts as warnings to send out to workers along the lines similar to what was shown in this threads original message. It doesn't matter if it was negligence, inexperience or just a 'freak' accident -- whatever it is, it takes literally a second to change a life permanently.  I'm glad these kinds of alerts are sent out and learned from on such a wide level as a standard.  

The two saddest stories we worked on was 1) The one worker who was literally two days from retirement, who had a kickback on his chainsaw and bled to death... and 2) The 16 year-old kid who worked in his father's family-run mill and had his head crushed while he tried to dislodge a stuck object in a laser-guided processor. My point is, it doesn't matter if you're 16 or 65 -- injuries/death do not discriminate based on age, job or experience. 


Just a side story...  Back in the early 1950's (can't remember the exact date), there was a young lad (early teens) in Chalk River who had found an unexploded ordinance on a fishing trip on a river near the base. He brought it home and while his parents were still away at work, decided he wanted to see what was inside of it. So, he grabbed a hand-saw and began to saw through it... needless to say, his parents came home a few hours later to find him and sadly, he didn't survive.  I believe it was around this time that CFB Petawawa increased their perimeter fencing and made a public awareness campaign to stop people from touching such items of interest.


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## SeanNewman (15 Jun 2010)

I can (sadly) kind of understand that happening in Canada with kids because it's not normally something you would think to teach your kids not to do.  Most of the time a parent would only think to teach their kids about the threats in their area.

Some parent on a remote forested Pacific island would not have to teach his kids to look both ways before crossing a street, etc.

Granted Chalk River is relatively close to a base but it's still not normal to see UXOs.  

In Afghanistan the public service announcements for kids not to touch UXOs are everywhere (billboards, etc) because they're common.


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