# Qur'an blunder has made Afghan mission more dangerous



## 57Chevy (23 Feb 2012)

Article shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

Fisher: Qur'an blunder has made Afghan mission more dangerous
Matthew Fisher, Postmedia News 23 Feb
 http://www.canada.com/news/Fisher+blunder+made+Afghan+mission+more+dangerous/6199087/story.html#ixzz1nFHTWQeQ

MOSCOW — Thanks to a staggering blunder by American troops, the jobs of all NATO soldiers in Afghanistan, including more than 900 Canadian military advisers scattered across more than a dozen bases in Kabul and western Afghanistan, got more complicated and dangerous this week.

President Barack Obama apologized to Afghans Thursday for the ignorance of two U.S. soldiers who burned several Holy Qur'ans at a U.S. airbase near the Afghan capital. It was the second abject American apology since the religious books were put in an incinerator at the Bagram Airbase dump on Monday night.

The incident has infuriated Afghans, who are regarded across the Islamic world as among the most pious of Muslims. Violent demonstrations have ensued that are likely to get worse after the mullahs lecture the faithful at prayers this Friday.

Here are the costs so far. Six Afghan protesters are dead. So are two NATO soldiers who were shot and killed in eastern Afghanistan by a man dressed in an Afghan army uniform. There has been widespread rioting. A number of NATO bases have been attacked. The Taliban — which thrives when they receive such incendiary gifts from those they are fighting — has demanded that Afghans avenge the burnings by beating up and murdering any "infidels" whose paths they cross.

As a result of what happened at the old Soviet base at Bagram, a logistics hub where the U.S. air force launches many of its attack drones, most of the western citadels in Kabul, including NATO bases, embassies and NGOs are on lockdown. Given that I was staying this week in a lightly guarded guest house in the capital, I am thankful that after being trapped for three days by snowstorms and fog, I was able to fly out of the capital Tuesday just as news of what had happened at Bagram began to circulate. Friends who are still there say they are too scared to venture outside right now.

How can it possibly be, 124 months after invading Afghanistan and after at least 250,000 U.S. troops have rotated through Afghanistan and half a million more have rotated through Iraq, with many on their third and fourth tours, that there are still soldiers who have no clue as to the significance of the Qur'an to Muslims?

There is no point saying that Afghans overreact to such incidents. The reality is that they do react this way. And there is no question that treating religious materials in such a manner is highly offensive and disrespectful, with inevitable consequences in a country as volatile as Afghanistan.

Nor does it help that this follows a recent incident in which U.S. Marines shot a video of themselves urinating on the corpses of several Taliban fighters.

Fingers are now being pointed mostly at the two hapless soldiers at Bagram who dumped the Qur'ans in the fire. But they are hardly the only ones to blame. More culpable, almost certainly, are the Americans who run Bagram's notorious detention centre. They were the ones who collected the Qur'ans and sent them off to be burned because they were no longer needed as the number of most Afghans and Pakistanis being held at the base has been declining.

If only they had asked their army of Afghan interpreters, they surely would have alerted them to the fact that the Qur'an was venerated and should never be sent to a dump to be burned.

There are, I am told, proper ways to dispose of Qur'ans including burial in a Muslim cemetery. However, clearly the easiest thing to have done if the Qur'ans were no longer required at the detention centre, would have been to give them to local mullahs. These religious leaders would have been duty bound to accept them and protect them.

Most culpable of all are likely the men and women in the U.S. who devise and run the training programs that troops attend before deploying to Afghanistan. It would be interesting to know how these courses compare to those given to Canadian soldiers and diplomats before their Afghan tours. From what the Canadians have told me, these briefings always include a stiff dose of no-nonsense information from Afghan-Canadian mentors about cultural and religious sensitivities and taboos and how to avoid running afoul of them.

Given the consequences of this colossally stupid act at Bagram, Obama might have also apologized to Canada and to the other coalition forces in Afghanistan for making the work of their troops more perilous.


----------



## Jed (23 Feb 2012)

Yes, this is a huge faux pas, with dire consequences. My question is: Is this a simply stupid act by fools or has this somehow been manipulated by local base support employees hooked into the Taliban?


----------



## Bart905 (24 Feb 2012)

Burning any culture or religions holy books are never a good idea. Every documentary I watched on Afghanistan troops are always helping and supporting the locals to gain their trust/support. This stupid act of burning the Qur'an is a advantage for the Taliban due to the fact now they can recruit more civilians by saying hey look they burned our holy book this means holy war. I respect every religion and every culture and disrespecting any ones believes like that is foolish. Hopefully our troops will not lose life over this incident


----------



## jollyjacktar (24 Feb 2012)

A supply of Qur'an's came into KAF for distribution and use of detainees and others.  We were not to touch them in any manner and had our LEP's take charge of dealing with them.  No chance of any indisgressions that way.


----------



## tomahawk6 (24 Feb 2012)

This incident doent make the mission more dangerous.We have had incidents before this where ANA have killed their mentors.This was a poorly thought out plan.The books should have been boxed up and shipped to the US and locked away in a warehouse.


----------



## PuckChaser (24 Feb 2012)

Of course it makes it more dangerous. Sure, there's always the small green on blue threat, but now we've thrown gas onto the fire with this issue. Fringe ANA/ANP who don't like us but wouldn't consider violent action are now being put into a position to justify it.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Feb 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Of course it makes it more dangerous. Sure, there's always the small green on blue threat, but now we've thrown gas onto the fire with this issue. Fringe ANA/ANP who don't like us but wouldn't consider violent action are now being put into a position to justify it.


Adding to this, the Taliban's Info-machine is sure using it's bandwidth to get even more Afghan security forces to kill allies:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/104321/post-1117874.html#msg1117874


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> A supply of Qur'an's came into KAF for distribution and use of detainees and others.  We were not to touch them in any manner and had our LEP's take charge of dealing with them.  No chance of any indisgressions that way.



Gotta respect their culture.
When we were building up MSG we had a  WO order us not to drink water in front of local afghans hired to help us with the labor because they weren't allowed to drink during the day so it was rude of us to also.


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Feb 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Of course it makes it more dangerous. Sure, there's always the small green on blue threat, but now we've thrown gas onto the fire with this issue. Fringe ANA/ANP who don't like us but wouldn't consider violent action are now being put into a position to justify it.



Considering what I've seen of Afghan culture and all the stupid ways they'll justify murder or purposefully maiming someone- including their religious craziness I really don't care too much about winning their hearts and minds.

Sure this is a big deal to them, but so is showing the bottom of your feet- just on a lesser scale. They'll use any reason to riot & protest. We need to stop kidding ourselves with the pipe dream that we'll turn them into a democracy or any kind of fair government backed by a professional ethical army.


----------



## lethalLemon (24 Feb 2012)

You know, it's admirable, the good deeds that the CF - those who have deployed previous to OP ATTENTION and those now mentoring have done. In my opinion though, Afghanistan is a lost cause. We get 5 steps ahead in progress, and the Americans seem to put us back another 20. We as Canadians are becoming the fodder to the American's stupid decisions. The Taliban don't care to look at us and go "Oh wait, those are Canadians. Don't shoot them, they actually deliver our Qu'rans properly." They'll shoot anyway, or they'll realize "Oh wait, they built clinics and let girls read books. Shoot them anyway." While the combat loses are/were tragic, I honestly thought that the CF was making some pretty good (comparatively...?) progress forward in flushing out the Talibums but all of you with a GCS will certainly know better than I do.

After all the money is gone, after all the clothing is gone; along with the food, the water, and all hope of survival... All people have left is their family, and their religion. When a person has lost everything and you try to take away or disgrace the only thing they have left (religion in this case), they're going to fight and history shows clear and visible evidence of that. The least they could have done is ASK somebody how to go about relocating the scriptures.


----------



## jollyjacktar (24 Feb 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Gotta respect their culture.
> When we were building up MSG we had a  WO order us not to drink water in front of local afghans hired to help us with the labor because they weren't allowed to drink during the day so it was rude of us to also.


Yes indeed.  I worked on a daily basis with the LEPs.  I always allowed them their time to conduct prayers and we ensured there was an adequate supply of clean water for them to wash themselves beforehand.  When it was Ramadam, we did not eat or drink in their presence either.  They learned from us and we from them.



			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Sure this is a big deal to them


And for good reason.  To a Muslim the words contained in a Qur'an are the direct as dictated to Gabriel words from God himself.  It's to them a true "Holy" book, more so than I would suggest the Bible is to a Christian as the words contained therein are not direct from God, verbatim as it were.  You've been there and have seen how much Islam is a daily influence in their lives.  No wonder they're all up in arms.

I imagine there would have somewhat the same response in Europe about 1000 years ago if you were to desecrate a holy item.  The peasants would pull you to pieces.


----------



## Rifleman62 (24 Feb 2012)

Were the items in question identifiable? The  soldiers would be able to identify a Bible written in English, or possible Spanish. Would they be able to identify the Qur'an ? Were the items in a bag/box/sandbag, contents unknown?

Who gave the order/instructions to gather up all the spare Qur'ans (less detainees as stated in the article) after determining there were spares, and what was required to be done with them?

I rather doubt two soldiers (whatever rank) assigned to burn "garbage" or classified material, or whatever, would on their own initiative, determine there were spares, collect the spares, and add more work to their detail by burning them.

We always seem to blame the lowest common denominator. These soldiers are being blamed, and I am sure they feel lousy about the deaths and riots. Nobody is hearing the fact they were following legal orders given by a responsible authority.


----------



## jollyjacktar (24 Feb 2012)

I would suggest it was more of an "irresponsible" authority.


----------



## muskrat89 (24 Feb 2012)

> "Oh wait, those are Canadians. Don't shoot them, they actually deliver our Qu'rans properly."



But there's a flip side to that too....

"Hey, let's lay off planting IED's this week. Our spies in camp say the Americans are being very respectful of our religion."


----------



## Jarnhamar (24 Feb 2012)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> But there's a flip side to that too....
> 
> "Hey, let's lay off planting IED's this week. Our spies in camp say the Americans are being very respectful of our religion."



But wait! I just sneezed and an American didn't say Allah bless you! Death to the infidels!!!!111


----------



## Bart905 (24 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Yes indeed.  I worked on a daily basis with the LEPs.  I always allowed them their time to conduct prayers and we ensured there was an adequate supply of clean water for them to wash themselves beforehand.  When it was Ramadam, we did not eat or drink in their presence either.  They learned from us and we from them.
> And for good reason.  To a Muslim the words contained in a Qur'an are the direct as dictated to Gabriel words from God himself.  It's to them a true "Holy" book, more so than I would suggest the Bible is to a Christian as the words contained therein are not direct from God, verbatim as it were.  You've been there and have seen how much Islam is a daily influence in their lives.  No wonder they're all up in arms.
> 
> I imagine there would have somewhat the same response in Europe about 1000 years ago if you were to desecrate a holy item.  The peasants would pull you to pieces.



I could not agree with you more .


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Feb 2012)

If this is all the provocation necessary to undo much of what has been done, there is no point continuing the work.  Diplomatic faux pas are always going to happen.

10 years ago when this was all kicking off, my opinion was that it would take 20-30 years to achieve any lasting useful change (I am a relentless optimist) and that we would be lucky to sustain political will for 10 years.  Other than writing down the Taliban, I saw no point to intervening in Afghanistan any more than any other craphole where the locals abuse and terrorize some of their own people on the basis of religion, gender, caste, etc.

We did the 10 years.  Predictably, the NDP have been the shakiest political faction - they have no stomach for the long haul; they just want the photo ops with UN ball caps handing out sacks of grain and condoms, and then their R2P ADD sets in after about 6 months.  We should by now have proven to even the most optimistic and kind-hearted among us that we have not the political will, let alone the institutional capability, to modernize others and give them the gift of the institutions we think most valuable.

It is time for a new doctrine: when attacked, exploit military overmatch to decapitate the regime.  Rinse, repeat, as often as necessary, until the next regime decides to find another target for its grievances.  Don't frig around with people in harm's way for years at a stretch.


----------



## leroi (25 Feb 2012)

Posting from Riyadh, Saudia Arabia. This incident is having a ripple effect though the danger is not  critical. Mostly confined to disparaging comments from Muslim colleagues. 

Saturday evening while flipping through the satellite tv stations in my apartment I caught a call-in talk show on a station called Press TV hosted by George Galloway who, of course, is doing his best to inflame or inflate the incident. He's loved here in Saudi (believe it or not!) 


Edit, spelling.


----------



## Nemo888 (25 Feb 2012)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> 10 years ago when this was all kicking off, my opinion was that it would take 20-30 years to achieve any lasting useful change (I am a relentless optimist) and that we would be lucky to sustain political will for 10 years.  Other than writing down the Taliban, I saw no point to intervening in Afghanistan any more than any other craphole where the locals abuse and terrorize some of their own people on the basis of religion, gender, caste, etc.



I was thinking didn't the Russians just try this for 10 years? We'll never be there that long.  
Well and this,
[video] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfWDilXZQEo [/video]


----------



## armyvern (25 Feb 2012)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Gotta respect their culture.
> When we were building up MSG we had a  WO order us not to drink water in front of local afghans hired to help us with the labor because they weren't allowed to drink during the day so it was rude of us to also.



Ramadan; we did same during my tour in Afg and during my tour in Syria. No eating in view, no drinking of fluids in view, and absolutely no radio on in the vehicles when moving or at work, no earphones in the ear for music when running/gym. Also dropped down the ROs requiring all Canadians to be in long shirts and long pants from sunrise to sunset for the duration of their Holy observance. In contrast, the Americans did none of these things and although there were no direct 'incidents' as a result of such, the vendors and local workers were certainly not shy about their preference for dealing with "respectful Canadians" by actually going down the lines and serving the Canadians and other nations in it first while leaving the Americans until the end. Many US became very vocal about it, cursing at them etc ... I just hung my head and shook it; Jesus probably wept. Sometimes, hearts and minds are indeed the most respectful, important and successful way and means of getting shit done. It is the little shit like that that counts.


----------



## armyvern (25 Feb 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> We always seem to blame the lowest common denominator. These soldiers are being blamed, and I am sure they feel lousy about the deaths and riots. Nobody is hearing the fact they were following legal orders given by a responsible authority.



We understand that; the locals do not. To them, it is a very disrespectful act. Period. Whether it was done on a lawful order or not is moot when the order should not have been given in the first place if one were to show even the smallest inkling of knowledge of their faith and some cultural sensitivity. This is exactly why Canadian troops undergo all those mandatory briefings prior to a deployment anywhere; apparently, the US can learn from that.

I just get more and more worried about the US these days and their obvious lack of troop briefings etc wrt to these areas prior to deployments. Over the past month, we have had them "unaware" of Geneva Conventions by pissing on dead enemy, unaware (bullshit, but that is the 'official story'  :) of the SS Nazi symbolism by a US Sniper Det posing in front, and adopting as their "symbol" the SS flag and also marking their weapons with the symbol; now this.

Unaware? I don't buy that either. If those two troops were not, it is a failure of their leadership. Cripes, that 'lil preacher in Florida and his Qu'ran burning had the entire Muslim world in an uproar and the whole world watched it on CNN --- except, apparently, the US military. Either that, or they just don't give a fuck, the rest be damned. With the recent and continued findings of "they didn't know about the Nazi symbolism" and now this, I am rapidly becoming convinced it's the latter.

Respect is a two way street, not a one way.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 Feb 2012)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and play devil's advocate.

The soldiers were told the books were surplus and to get rid of them. "Here's some surplus books. Take 'em to the burn barrel"

These books had been in use by the prisoners. I highly doubt if these were english translations that stated, in english on the cover, what they were.

If the soldiers couldn't read Arabic, and if they hadn't been told what they were, to them they were just surplus books to be gotten rid of.

Was there also not a problem that there was some indication that these weren't true copies, but modified to act as code books?

If so, they stopped being a Qu'ran.

Seems a perfectly logical way of keeping them permanently inaccessable to those that would want to use them against us.


----------



## HavokFour (25 Feb 2012)

*Graves of British troops (WWII) smashed and desecrated by Libyan Islamists in protest over U.S. soldiers' Koran burning*​
Link



> A furious mob has desecrated dozens of Commonwealth War Graves in a Libyan cemetery amid continuing fury in the Middle East over the burning of the Koran by U.S. soldiers.
> 
> Headstones commemorating British and Allied servicemen, killed during World War II campaigns in the Western Desert, lay smashed and strewn across Benghazi Military Cemetery.
> 
> Protesters rampaged through site on Friday, despite efforts by America to calm tensions sparked when it emerged U.S. soldiers had burned Muslim holy books in a pile of rubbish at a military base in Afghanistan.



*More images at the link.*  :rage:


----------



## Tom Billesley (25 Feb 2012)

Daily Mail Feb 25th 2012
A furious mob has desecrated dozens of Commonwealth War Graves in a Libyan cemetery amid continuing fury in the Middle East over the burning of the Koran by U.S. soldiers.
Headstones commemorating British and Allied servicemen, killed during World War II campaigns in the Western Desert, lay smashed and strewn across Benghazi Military Cemetery
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2106230/Insult-WWII-heroes-Graves-British-soldiers-smashed-desecrated-Libyan-Islamists-protest-U-S-soldiers-Koran-burning.html 

The shattered headstone depicted  in the Daily Mail is a memorial for Flying Officer Martin Palmer Northmore, a pilot of 94 Squadron, Royal Canadian Air Force, who died in action over North Africa Oct 24th 1943. RIP.
There's a poem written by his aunt to commemorate his sacrifice here:
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/poem99/pmartin

They've obviously concentrated on obliterating the cross carved on the stone after they kicked it over, as an intended desecration.


----------



## krustyrl (25 Feb 2012)

"DISLIKE"  I really hate seeing this stuff .!!       :rage:


----------



## fraserdw (25 Feb 2012)

One class act follows another class act, 9 months to retirement.


----------



## blacktriangle (25 Feb 2012)

I hear you...2 decades and I disappear to somewhere in the mountains. Never watching the news again  :nod:


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Feb 2012)

Islamic muslim radicals angry! News at 11


----------



## observor 69 (26 Feb 2012)

This incident is highly disturbing:

26 February 2012 
Afghan police officer sought over Kabul Nato killings

An Afghan police intelligence officer is being sought over the killing of two senior US Nato officers at the interior ministry in Kabul on Saturday.

Abdul Saboor, from Parwan province, was "the main suspect" and had fled the ministry following Saturday's attack, officials told the BBC.

Reports said the gunman opened fire in a secure room in the ministry - one of the highest security buildings in the capital - at close range.Complete article at LINK


----------



## jollyjacktar (26 Feb 2012)

And so it continues and escalates.  Shared with the usual caveats.  Full story at link.  

Afghan rioters lob grenades at NATO base
7 troops wounded, 2 Afghans killed in deadly protests over Qur'an burnings
The Associated Press
Posted: Feb 26, 2012 6:08 AM ET
Last Updated: Feb 26, 2012 10:19 AM ET 

Protesters angry over Qur'an burnings by American troops lobbed grenades at a U.S. base in northern Afghanistan and clashed with police and troops in a day of violence that left seven international troops wounded and two Afghans dead.  The attacks were the latest in six days of violence across the country by Afghans furious at the way some Qur'ans at an American base outside of Kabul were disposed of in a burn pit. The incident has swiftly spiralled out of control leaving dozens of people dead, including four U.S. troops killed by their Afghan counterparts, in a sign of the tenuous nature of the relationship between Afghanistan and the U.S.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/02/26/afghan-shooting-karzai.html


----------



## observor 69 (26 Feb 2012)

An updated report on events by The New York Times:

Blast Injures U.S. Soldiers as Riots Rage in AfghanistanBy GRAHAM BOWLEY and ALISSA J. RUBIN
KABUL, Afghanistan — A grenade thrown by Afghan protesters wounded at least six American service members in northern Afghanistan on Sunday, officials said, as new details emerged in the investigation of the shooting death of two American officers within the Interior Ministry building the day before. 

Rioting continued across the country on Sunday as anger over the burning of Korans by the American military continued unabated, putting the relationship between Afghanistan and the United States on shaky new ground. At least one Afghan was killed in clashes with the Afghan police. 

A few details of the killing within the Interior Ministry were emerging, although many reports offered conflicting views of what had happened. According to three Afghan security officials familiar with the case, the main suspect was Abdul Saboor, who was said to have worked in the ministry for more than a year as a driver. The two American officers who were killed were shot in the head and the pistol used to kill them was equipped with a silencer, the officials said. 

Afghan officials said that Mr. Saboor was at large, apparently able to leave the ministry without complication after the shooting. That suggested to some observers that he may have had help in the attack. 

----------------------------------------

The Koran burnings and the subsequent unrest is complicating relations between the United States and the Afghan government at a time of critical negotiations, including the future of the main American prison in Afghanistan, and future cooperation between Afghanistan and the United States after the 2014 deadline for an American troop withdrawal. 

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Sunday expressed regret for the incident involving the Korans but said it should not derail the American military and diplomatic effort in Afghanistan. 

“We are condemning it in the strongest possible terms,” she said in Rabat, Morocco, “but we also believe that the violence must stop, and the hard work of trying to build a more peaceful, prosperous and secure Afghanistan must continue.” 

Meanwhile, Ambassador Ryan Crocker, the United States ambassador to Afghanistan, told CNN that the assassination of the two American officials would not lessen America’s commitment to the region. "This is not the time to decide we’re done here. We’ve got to redouble our efforts," he said. “If we decide we’re tired of it, Al Qaeda and the Taliban certainly aren’t." 

LINK


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Feb 2012)

> The two American officers who were killed were shot in the head and the pistol used to kill them was equipped with a silencer, the officials said.
> 
> Afghan officials said that Mr. Saboor was at large, apparently able to leave the ministry without complication after the shooting. That suggested to some observers that he may have had help in the attack.



Clearly the same assassin planted the books with the two US soldiers. Diabolical.

I wonder what these guys will be up in arms over and protesting next month?


----------



## fraserdw (26 Feb 2012)

I so agree, out mission over there should have been to build a giant 10 foot high fence around the whole Middle East with openings at certain points for the oil.  I would accpet a 100 dollar raise in the price of a barrel of oil if these people would get off and stay off the local news.  I am really really finding it hard to develop even a small amount of empathy for the whole of the following of islam.  They are like a "never leave home, never finish school, teenage daughter".  And I know teenage daughters!!!!!


----------



## tomahawk6 (26 Feb 2012)

France and Germany withdraw advisors from Afghan ministries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17171798


----------



## Edward Campbell (27 Feb 2012)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> France and Germany withdraw advisors from Afghan ministries.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17171798




Ditto Canadians

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-work-in-afghanistan-halted-after-violence/article2350611/
Canadian work in Afghanistan halted after violence

"Canadian officials in Afghanistan have been ordered to stay out of government buildings after two senior American officers were killed inside a supposedly secure ministry office in Kabul."

More on link


----------



## McG (27 Feb 2012)

While the killing of the two US officers coincides in time with the anger over the burnings, I suspect it is not accurate to link the two in any other way.  As media reports are suggesting shots in the back of the head with a silenced pistol, the two murders are something that was in the work much earlier than the burnings.  The murders may have happened sooner to exploit the current turmoil and emotion, but they were eventually going to happen even without it.


----------



## Edward Campbell (27 Feb 2012)

MCG said:
			
		

> While the killing of the two US officers coincides in time with the anger over the burnings, I suspect it is not accurate to link the two in any other way.  As media reports are suggesting shots in the back of the head with a silenced pistol, the two murders are something that was in the work much earlier than the burnings.  The murders may have happened sooner to exploit the current turmoil and emotion, but they were eventually going to happen even without it.




Agreed, and as others have mentioned the killings of allied forces by members of the Afghan forces and police, especially inside "secure" compounds, reduces the trust we can have in them and reduces the confidence they have in our capabilities ... it is win/win for the Taliban.


----------



## Kalatzi (5 Mar 2012)

Here is an article with what I feel are some intersting thoughts on the whole mess. 

Reproduced under the fair use prvision of the copyright act. http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/03/05/medium_rare_some_thoughts_from_an_afghan_war_vet_on_the_koran_burning_riots

By "_B_" 

Best Defense frequent commenter 

I'd like to analyze the riots currently going on in Afghanistan by breaking down who did what and why.

1. Some ISAF guys (presumably detainee handler MPs) attempted to dispose via burning some Qurans that had been written in by detainees in an attempt to pass each other notes. Being idiots, they didn't inquire about proper Quran disposal procedures. Being REAL idiots, they didn't burn them thoroughly but just sort of scorched some of them.

2. Some Afghan garbage haulers working on the FOB found the half-burned Qurans. Being Muslim, they got riled up and snuck them off-base. (I presume the scorched Qurans seen in some photographs of demonstrations comes from Bagram and was not purposely burned by Afghans for propaganda purposes.)

3. The gate guards let them through without a proper search. You have to presume that all kinds of other paperwork is walking through the gate (and not being publicized).

4. Presumably, the trash haulers brought this material to someone who made the call to publicize it. Either local political or religious authorities, or the Taliban. After some kind of analysis, these guys decided to exploit the scorched Qurans in their hands as a PSYOP.

5. At this point, if the U.S. had a functional and integrated SIGINT, HUMINT and Counterintelligence providing coverage in the vicinity of Bagram, they would have been inside the enemy's OODA loop and known what was going on. They apparently don't have such an operation and were caught by surprise. It's completely understandable -- Bagram is only ISAF's biggest base. Apparently, the talent and resources are pooled to support the pipe hitters who are snatching and killing Talib leadership, and there's not enough left to let anyone know what's going on outside the front gate. The fact that HUMINTers have been FOB-bound for at least the last half-decade due to retarded safety considerations which became a self-fulfilling prophecy doesn't help much.

Had military leaders known what was going on, they would have theoretically been able to stop it by showing up to the key players' houses and making them offers they could not refuse, e.g., "take this money, give me the burned Qurans and forget this ever happened, or we'll kill you and your whole family," and/or come up with a PR plan to discredit these guys and make them look like liars (Hey, it's a war -- bad things happen.) Or they could have used a brute force approach and bribed the tribal leaders of the Afghans living around U.S. bases to have them keep their guys from protesting. In practice American PSYOPs mostly consist of printing up hackneyed agitprop and posting it on walls/dropping it from aircraft/reading it through loudspeakers at the local populace.

6. Upon having this information publicized and being invited by their local Taliban representatives to engage in rioting, thousands of Afghans did so. They did this even though every ISAF base has a well-defended perimeter and crowds, no matter how fervent, are notoriously bad at stopping 7.62 and even 5.56.

As a guy who's once faced down an angry Afghan mob (small, about 120 guys,) I'd like to point out that contrary to common wisdom, they are not, in fact, irrational rage-monkeys. Afghans do not survive in a harsh, Malthusian environment by being bad at cost-benefit analysis. They knew that ISAF soldiers, driven by their fear of their commanders' response, would try to avoid lighting them up. And they were right. The fact that some of the posters were in English during this first wave of protests makes me think that this was a fairly carefully planned Taliban PSYOP aimed at the American media. But from the standpoint of the average rioter, outrage and rioting are fun and potentially profitable -- there's good loot to be had from overrunning a U.S. base.

7. The ISAF commander, General Allen, apologized profusely to "to the president of Afghanistan, the government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, and most importantly, to the noble people of Afghanistan" and assured everyone that measures were being taken to ensure this would never happen again, ever. I personally suspect that GEN Allen, deep down inside, has not drank the COIN Kool-Aid and does not really care about the noble people of Afghanistan. Contrary to the tone of this message, he is not wrought with remorse and contrition and would, if he could, empirically prove the above thesis about how bad crowds are at stopping 7.62 and 5.56. At the very least, given free rein, he would follow the classic PR algorithm when confronted with embarrassing facts -- lie, deny and make counteraccusations. But GEN Allen has learned the lesson presented by GEN McChrystal -- give the U.S. media something juicy to dig into, and they'll tell the president to fire you -- and he will. Therefore, some public belly-crawling was in order, despite its predictable effects on the Afghan people's behavior.

8. Emboldened by the commander of ISAF setting the tone for subsequent crowd control and public relations efforts, more Afghans joined the riots. A few of them finally got themselves shot by U.S. troops forced to decide whether to get overrun and lynched or risk their careers. Of course, had we firmly established right off the bat that as long as there's a war on, any demonstrations in the vicinity of U.S. bases will get brutally crushed, none of this would have happened.

9. Also, some insurgent infiltrators of the GIROA and ANSF capped a few Americans. Nothing new there, it's been going on for a while, and presumably without the Quran burning controversy these infiltrators would have done the exact same thing eventually, but it's being used synergetically for maximum PSYOP impact. Not being constantly distracted by red-faced sergeant majors, reflective belts and hourly powerpoints, even the Taliban can figure this stuff out. Effective PSYOPs -- so simple, even a caveman could do it!

The problem of unreliable Afghan troops is inherent in the relationship between ANSF and ISAF, where the latter "advise" the former instead of being integrated into a mixed colonialist structure. But such structure is politically impossible. Any senior officers publically advocating one will be set upon by the American media and academia, which will say mean things about them, compare them to King Leopold and other bad colonialist oppressors of the past, and get them fired by their civilian leadership. Therefore the sham of "independent" Afghan security forces continues. These forces vet their personnel about as well as they do everything else, with the result that they are full of guys with either mixed or treasonous loyalties. The advisors embedded in these security forces have no command authority or any real leverage over their advisees, and are reduced to publically praising the whole arrangement while waiting out their tour and praying they don't get capped in the back of the head.

10. The president apologized to Afghans via a note sent to Hamid Karzai. Possible reasons for this action: 1) The president's well-documented penchant for apologizing to the world for American actions. 2) Having been elected by the American media, the president is afraid that he might get unelected by it, and is propitiating its representatives by doing what they expect. 3) The president (or his advisors) plan to use the predictable result of demonstrating to the Afghan people that our weakness runs all the way to the top to incite them to keep rioting and attacking U.S. bases. This will be used to demonstrate to the U.S. press and think tanks that the war has failed and the only thing left to do is to pull out. Beginning a pullout of all or most conventional U.S. forces from Afghanistan around the spring or summer would give the president a popularity boost, assuming the Taliban could be bribed or induced to hold off on any mass offensives until after the election. While seemingly farfetched, this scenario would be well within the time-honored American political tradition where the Progressives and the guys killing American troops make an informal and unspoken alliance for mutual benefit (see: Korea, Vietnam, Iraq.) I wouldn't put something that wicked past our leadership, but it does seem a bit too complicated and well-planned.

11. Most likely outcome -- a negative feedback loop, where an intensification of mob violence causes the sense of self-preservation of U.S. troops on the ground to override their fear of a career-ending incident and they start lighting the Afghan mobs up. The Afghans' sense of self-preservation will in turn prevail over the great fun and potential for loot that are to be had in rioting, and they will calm down. A return to the status quo for the time being.

To "_B" is to do.


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Mar 2012)

A bit belatedly, but a former Canadian OMLT'eer on why the "giving them Korans" may not work in general....


> I wasn't surprised to hear about the Afghan riots around alleged burning of Korans at Bagram. This incident, and the reaction to it, was inevitable, given the politics of Westerners handling that particular book.
> 
> We had a similar issue in Kandahar in late 2008. There had been an attempt to reach out to the Afghan people through the distribution by the military of Pashto-Arabic Korans. Very ornate, beautiful books. But Westerners couldn't be seen to handle the books, our Afghan advisors felt, so direct gifting was impossible. So we attempted to give them through the Afghan military, where I was an advisor. This was also problematic: the military didn't like getting Korans from westerners' hands, either, and they couldn't really give them out themselves, because they knew their defiling origin. So that was a non-starter. We also started to see returns of holy books previously given, as word spread that the words might somehow have been adulterated or bowdlerized by Westerners. It being, of course, impossible to disprove that particular negative, the whole Koran-gifting thing basically shut down.
> 
> ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Mar 2012)

Time to fight fire with fire, start showing pictures of the Mosques destroyed by the Taliban, the books shredded and covered in the blood of their targets. Start showing what the Taliban and AQ have done to innocent Muslim, show very graphic images ask where is the outrage? 

I sigh when I hear how the Quran is considered. Neither Mohammed or  Gabriel wrote the Quran, it is told that Gabriel recited the words from the holy Quran in heaven to Muhammad. Who then recited them to his followers, verbally, some were written down at the time by others, some were not. After his death it was realized that the words he spoke were being lost and misspoke. A committee of wise man and relatives was put together to collect and record the words of Muhammad. They were presented with many versions of the same verse and had to choose which one would likely been correct. 
Now we all know just how successful committees are…..


----------



## HavokFour (6 Mar 2012)

Don't know if this was posted yet, but there is now video of the cemetery being trashed.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=396_1330563824


----------



## 57Chevy (21 Jun 2012)

Shared with provisions of The copyright Act

U.S. Soldiers Face Disciplinary Action for Quran Burning
Elizabeth Hewitt, 20Jun
http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/06/20/afghan_quran_burning_7_us_troops_face_disciplinary_action_.html

But the military is recommending that the service members not face criminal charges.

As many as seven U.S. service members face disciplinary action, though not criminal charges, for their roles in the burning of Qurans and other Islamic holy texts in Afghanistan in February, the Associated Press reports.

One Navy service member and six Army soldiers face disciplinary action, which, NBC News explains, could range from a letter attached to their file to a reduction in rank. As many as 12 U.S. troops were involved in the chain of events that led to the burning, which set off a string of riots and further frayed an already strained U.S-Afghan relationship.

Recommendations for punishment were included in a report on the incident by a U.S. military investigation, which was submitted to the Pentagon more than a week ago and leaked to the media late Tuesday night. The investigation is still classified, and no final decisions have yet been made.

In February, Qurans and other Islamic texts confiscated from detainees at the Parwan Detention Facility ended up in the fire pit used to incinerate garbage at the Bagram Air Field near Kabul. The burning set off days of riots throughout the country that resulted in more than 30 deaths, including six American troops.

A preliminary investigation in March by U.S. and Afghan officials found that there had been no deliberate attempt to desecrate the religious texts. Regardless, the incident did little to placate popular perceptions among Afghans that U.S. troops have little respect for the country’s religion and culture. While U.S. officials have maintained that the incident was an accident, many Afghan officials claim it was deliberate.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Jun 2012)

>As many as seven U.S. service members face disciplinary action...

>A preliminary investigation in March by U.S. and Afghan officials found that there had been no deliberate attempt to desecrate the religious texts.

Does not compute.


----------



## brihard (21 Jun 2012)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >As many as seven U.S. service members face disciplinary action...
> 
> >A preliminary investigation in March by U.S. and Afghan officials found that there had been no deliberate attempt to desecrate the religious texts.
> 
> Does not compute.



Negligence is often culpable too.


----------



## Popurhedoff (22 Jun 2012)

I remember how dangerous it was just after the incident, the streets were ablaze with burning tires, large mobs running back and forth up the main J'bad road, all camps and sites went into lockdown. Flash mobs would suddenly appear and charge at facilities, our site was attacked, rocks thrown etc. but we de escalated the situation and let it run its course.  Now being an expat it has become very dangerous, the tensions were very high and any slight would send them off.

My perception of the Afghan people and culture is different now that i am over here and not in a military uniform.  Of all the cultures and countries I have seen throughout my career, I have to admit that the Afghan people are the most respectful that I have interacted with abet with caveats of course.  I found that they are hard working and honest and extend and reciprocate respect with respect. I am referring to the average villager, not the corruptted ones within this culture, the average Joe.

I Command approx 100 Afghan Officers, NCO's and guards, I know them all by name, I eat and have chi with them, we do not talk about religion or polotics, we talk about the children, families, education, they are teaching me Dari, and I am teaching them English. We help each other out and, I bought them gym and volleyball equipment and we have sports together.  I give my weapons drill in Dari, I impress upon them that we are one team, no one is better than another and it is the most rewarding experience that I have had the opportunity to have.

Understanding the culture in important, as I mentoned above there are certain caveats, swearing and insults, we are used to that, but there are some insults which will drive them from being calm to slitting your throat in a mere second, 0-100mph in a second.   Their religion is the most respected and important thing to them and they will defend it to the death.

Our ignorance of them is our Achilles's heel, with all the incidents of the book burning, videos of urinating on the corpses, the murders for sport, and other acts only work against us.  For all the good we have done here, these incidents that keep reoccurring has cost America/NATO/ISAF to loose this war,  The taliban aren't winning it, but rather America is loosing it.

This is a dangerous place, and these incidents only make more so.

Cheers
Pop


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Jun 2012)

Popurhedoff said:
			
		

> I remember how dangerous it was just after the incident, the streets were ablaze with burning tires, large mobs running back and forth up the main J'bad road, all camps and sites went into lockdown. Flash mobs would suddenly appear and charge at facilities, our site was attacked, rocks thrown etc. but we de escalated the situation and let it run its course.  Now being an expat it has become very dangerous, the tensions were very high and any slight would send them off.
> 
> My perception of the Afghan people and culture is different now that i am over here and not in a military uniform.  Of all the cultures and countries I have seen throughout my career, I have to admit that the Afghan people are the most respectful that I have interacted with abet with caveats of course.  I found that they are hard working and honest and extend and reciprocate respect with respect. I am referring to the average villager, not the corruptted ones within this culture, the average Joe.
> 
> ...



And it's exactly that kind of high quality leadership that allowed organizations like the British Empire to be so successful, and generate such an enormous amount of loyalty from the Commonwealth and elsewhere, over the years. That's how you win at COIN, by winning over the locals through personal example which, unfortunately, seems hard to come by in a consistent fashion these days.


----------



## Journeyman (22 Jun 2012)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> That's how you win at COIN, by winning over the locals through personal example which, unfortunately, seems hard to come by in a consistent fashion these days.


The "consistent" part of the equation is naturally made more difficult by constant troop rotations.  Yes, I know that some people are in year-long line serials.....but overall, it's grip & grin, then ENDEX.


I won't comment on the other side of the personal example coin, which is, "I have a limited time in an operational theatre to make _my_ PER points."


----------



## Strike (22 Jun 2012)

The investigation into the incident is classified, meaning that there are likely things that happened, or led to the incident, of which we don't know.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Aug 2012)

> "Six Army soldiers and three Marines escaped criminal charges, but received administrative punishments for their involvement in two incidents of misconduct in Afghanistan that roiled relations with Afghans, U.S. military officials said Monday.
> 
> The soldiers were disciplined for the mistaken burning of Korans earlier this year at a U.S. base in Afghanistan, and the Marines were punished for their participation in a video that showed them urinating on the corpses of Taliban insurgents.
> ( .... )
> ...


_Marine Corps Times_, 27 Aug 12


----------

