# Toronto Mayor Rob Ford



## The_Falcon (25 Jan 2013)

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1319970--mayor-rob-ford-wins-appeal-will-stay-in-office

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2013/01/25/20525176.html

http://www.blogto.com/city/2013/01/rob_ford_to_remain_mayor_until_2014/#  (<---this one has a copy of the decision).


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## Scott (25 Jan 2013)

This has been a good week. Spence is off her diet and back to playing Hamburgler, and the entire Left on Toronto is likely screaming mad right about now.

rancing:


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Jan 2013)

Yup,..that noise you here all the way over there is Danjanou howling in laughter at work today.


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## Old Sweat (25 Jan 2013)

Or all the heads exploding in the Toronto Star building.


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## Danjanou (25 Jan 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Yup,..that noise you here all the way over there is Danjanou howling in laughter at work today.



Nope too busy working, the rest of the building is either sitting in shock or gone to starbucks as a sign of rigtheous ( leftist?) indignation >


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## Pandora114 (25 Jan 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Nope too busy working, the rest of the building is either sitting in shock or gone to starbucks as a sign of rigtheous ( leftist?) indignation >




Here's something to print and put on your office/cube door







That would be awesome.


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## mariomike (25 Jan 2013)

I served under nine Toronto Mayors and four Metro Chairmen. 

I retired before Mayor Ford was elected, but he seems to support our Emergency Services about as much as any of his predecessors did.

That's just my opinion based on memory, and I could be wrong.


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## observor 69 (25 Jan 2013)

Speaking as a pinko, leftie, socialist, Starbucks drinking, Toronto Star reader:  8) 
It's great to see him still in office. Two more years for him to continue to screwup and turn off the voters of TO.
Plus a bonus, it saved us from all the "Sturm und Drang" if he had lost his appeal.
It's all good.


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## Kilo_302 (25 Jan 2013)

http://gawker.com/5978975/the-best-of-torontos-insane-terrible-mayor-rob-ford-an-introduction-for-americans

This isn't a right and left issue, the guy is an idiot and should not be mayor of any city, never mind the biggest city in Canada. It's an embarrassment. This whole revolt against "intellectuals" and "elitists" has to stop. I WANT my politicians to be smart guys. Toronto is facing complex issues and it takes a nuanced approach to be successful. Not knee jerk policies based on what Rob Ford thinks will resonate with the "average" person. It's time for a return to effects-based policy, without window dressing from the right OR the left.


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## SeaKingTacco (26 Jan 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> http://gawker.com/5978975/the-best-of-torontos-insane-terrible-mayor-rob-ford-an-introduction-for-americans
> 
> This isn't a right and left issue, the guy is an idiot and should not be mayor of any city, never mind the biggest city in Canada. It's an embarrassment. This whole revolt against "intellectuals" and "elitists" has to stop. I WANT my politicians to be smart guys. Toronto is facing complex issues and it takes a nuanced approach to be successful. Not knee jerk policies based on what Rob Ford thinks will resonate with the "average" person. It's time for a return to effects-based policy, without window dressing from the right OR the left.



So...what are you saying about the electorate in Toronto?  Can they not be trusted, on their own, to pick their own mayor?  Or do you insist on a veto, if you don't like the election results?


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## Rifleman62 (26 Jan 2013)

So...what are you saying about the electorate of Ontario?  Can they not be trusted, on their own, to pick their own premier?  Or do you insist on a veto, if you don't like the election results?

Seems to be a common thread.


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## Kilo_302 (26 Jan 2013)

I think we are seeing the results of the creation of the megacity. It's well documented that voters in the outlying regions of Toronto tended to support Ford more than voter living in Toronto proper. I have nothing against the voters in Etobicoke and Scarborough, but Ford's agenda was and is tailored for them rather than the rest of Toronto. 

Read those quotes on the link above. They are offensive, downright stupid and totally inappropriate for someone of his position.


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## Kat Stevens (26 Jan 2013)

Who elects more idiot mayors than Toronto?   Nooooooooo bodyyy!


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## a_majoor (26 Jan 2013)

So Kilo, if you _actually_ believe in liberal democratic values (Classical Liberal values like free speech, individual liberty, property rights and the Rule of Law), then you will support the decision and let Mayor Ford carry on with what the voters elected him to do.

It seems strange that I am supposed to grit my teeth and say nothing for 9 years of Dalton McGuinty running Ontario into the ground, with the full knowledge and consent of the Ontario voters, but not accept Mayor Ford's actions despite the full knowledge and consent of Toronto's voters.


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## Journeyman (26 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Who elects more idiot mayors than Toronto?   Nooooooooo bodyyy!


:rofl:   
He _did_ come out and thank the Army for shoveling out the bus stops though....sure, the streets still weren't cleared for the buses to drive, but hey, he meant well.


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## Kilo_302 (26 Jan 2013)

> So Kilo, if you actually believe in liberal democratic values (Classical Liberal values like free speech, individual liberty, property rights and the Rule of Law), then you will support the decision and let Mayor Ford carry on with what the voters elected him to do.
> 
> It seems strange that I am supposed to grit my teeth and say nothing for 9 years of Dalton McGuinty running Ontario into the ground, with the full knowledge and consent of the Ontario voters, but not accept Mayor Ford's actions despite the full knowledge and consent of Toronto's voters.



I do not support the decision, as I disagree with it on the basis of what he did, not who he is. You're not supposed to do anything. I'm also not a fan of McGuinty. I don't think this to has to be a left and right issue, Ford broke the rules, that's the main point. I just wanted to point out that he's also incredibly ignorant and offensive.


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## ModlrMike (26 Jan 2013)

If you read the judgment, Council broke the rules.


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## FJAG (26 Jan 2013)

Not the greatest fan of Ford but I like him much more that Magder or Clayton Ruby. IMHO this was nothing more or less than a thinly veiled attempt to do an end run on democracy. 

Regardless of what one thinks of the electorate's choice, one man and his lawyer should not be allowed to bring down a democratically elected public official over something as trivial as this issue was.

The real problem here is that the Ontario government still hasn't cleaned up the legislation notwithstanding they have been previously told it's draconian and should be amended.

For anyone interested, here's the decision. It's a well reasoned one.

http://www.ontariocourts.ca/scj/decisions/2013ONSC0263.htm

 :nod:


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## The_Falcon (26 Jan 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> I think we are seeing the results of the creation of the megacity. It's well documented that voters in the outlying regions of Toronto tended to support Ford more than voter living in Toronto proper. I have nothing against the voters in Etobicoke and Scarborough, but Ford's agenda was and is tailored for them rather than the rest of Toronto.
> 
> Read those quotes on the link above. They are offensive, downright stupid and totally inappropriate for someone of his position.



And Miller, didn't tailor HIS agenda and approach to those mainly resided in the former City of Toronto while ignoring North York, Scarborough, and Etobicoke?   Right.  :


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## Sigs Pig (26 Jan 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> So...what are you saying about the electorate of Ontario?  Can they not be trusted, on their own, to pick their own premier?  Or do you insist on a veto, if you don't like the election results?
> 
> Seems to be a common thread.


My beef with provincial / federal elections, you do not actually vote for the Premier / PM. So you may like the one in your riding, but not the one that would lead.... 
Whereas civic elections, there the leader is voted upon.

ME


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## FJAG (26 Jan 2013)

Sigs Pig said:
			
		

> My beef with provincial / federal elections, you do not actually vote for the Premier / PM. So you may like the one in your riding, but not the one that would lead....
> Whereas civic elections, there the leader is voted upon.
> 
> ME



At the municipal level in most cases (but not all) you vote for the man or woman. In Ford's case that's who the electorate chose.


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## ModlrMike (26 Jan 2013)

Another example of the increasingly worrying trend of those dissatisfied with the results of an election attempting to overturn said result through the courts.


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## Brad Sallows (29 Jan 2013)

The schemes of garden variety "idiots" don't usually do too much damage when the schemes go wrong.  The schemes of "intellectuals" and "elites" fuck up spectacularly because those people spend too much time blowing sunshine up each others' asses and start to believe their own narcissistic preening.


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## jimbuller (20 Jun 2013)

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/713015/chief-bill-blair-could-say-more-about-rob-fords-involvement-in-project-traveller-experts/

Prosecution should be happy with Blair's refusal "to say more". Not only that everyone should be presumed innocent until proven guilty but the fact that it would be a great embarrassment for the the commies in prosecutor's office if the PRESCRIPTION PERIOD applies which means that a criminal offense can be rendered null and void if no lawsuit was brought within the period applied. Morons.


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## CougarKing (24 Jun 2013)

:facepalm:







link



> *Toronto Mayor Rob Ford gets own video game inspired by scandals*
> 
> Are you the last person on Earth who isn’t sick of hearing about Rob Ford yet? It looks like there may be a few more people who still get a kick out of the mayor’s antics, and they’ve created a video game.
> 
> ...


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## dapaterson (10 Aug 2013)

Noted hotbed of left-wing journalism the Toronto Sun is reporting that a convicted drug dealer broke into the Mayor's house and demanded the mayor pay him money he was owed.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/09/why-a-convicted-drug-dealer-burst-into-rob-fords-home-demanding-money


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## The_Falcon (10 Aug 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Noted hotbed of left-wing journalism the Toronto Sun is reporting that a convicted drug dealer broke into the Mayor's house and demanded the mayor pay him money he was owed.
> 
> http://www.torontosun.com/2013/08/09/why-a-convicted-drug-dealer-burst-into-rob-fords-home-demanding-money



The Sun left wing??? ummmmmm I don't think so.


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## Humphrey Bogart (10 Aug 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> The Sun left wing??? ummmmmm I don't think so.



lol dapaterson was being sarcastic  ;D


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## Rocky Mountains (10 Aug 2013)

"Crown attorney Lorraine Cavion said MacIntyre’s leg was broken on March 22, 2012 by another inmate."

More Ford good karma?


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## Inquisitor (16 Aug 2013)

link here http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/08/16/rob-ford-hazel-mccallion-fishing_n_3767711.html?utm_hp_ref=canada#slide=2811169

I normally can stand the guy's style, but lately he's being held more to account than  probably any politician in  the world. 

Nice to see him get some good press.


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## BeyondTheNow (16 Aug 2013)

> ...but lately he's being held more to account than probably any politician in  the world...



Maybe. But at some point he needs to stop playing the victim and saying everyone is just attacking him for the hell of it. He brings it on himself, puts himself in precarious positions repeatedly, consistently responds inappropriately to media inquiries, and practically begs for negative press. I think the media simply _expects_ him to make a fool of himself these days...

But yes, nice to see a positive report for a change.


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## pbi (28 Aug 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> http://gawker.com/5978975/the-best-of-torontos-insane-terrible-mayor-rob-ford-an-introduction-for-americans
> 
> This isn't a right and left issue, the guy is an idiot and should not be mayor of any city, never mind the biggest city in Canada. It's an embarrassment. This whole revolt against "intellectuals" and "elitists" has to stop. I WANT my politicians to be smart guys. Toronto is facing complex issues and it takes a nuanced approach to be successful. Not knee jerk policies based on what Rob Ford thinks will resonate with the "average" person. It's time for a return to effects-based policy, without window dressing from the right OR the left.



 Hear, hear! Since the original post on this thread, this man has stumbled vacantly from one clown-act to the next. Despite what seems to be all sorts of well-meant advice and 50-pound cast-iron hints,  the Mayor apparently believes that Town Jester is part of his job description.  Even Mel Lastman was never like this.

The latest and silliest bit of "bread and circuses" has to be this farcical stunt with Hulk Hogan. Puh-leeeze! :

To me, the leader of our nation's biggest city needs to be an intelligent, wordly-wise, capable and dignified leader who commands respect at home and abroad (Toronto is a "world-class" city, right...?), not an overgrown 19 year old at a tailgate party.

We get who we vote for.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Aug 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Hear, hear! Since the original post on this thread, this man has stumbled vacantly from one clown-act to the next. Despite what seems to be all sorts of well-meant advice and 50-pound cast-iron hints,  the Mayor apparently believes that Town Jester is part of his job description.  Even Mel Lastman was never like this.
> 
> The latest and silliest bit of "bread and circuses" has to be this farcical stunt with Hulk Hogan. Puh-leeeze! :
> 
> ...



.....and enough voted for him to be elected.

And there's a good chance if an election were held tomorrow, he'd be elected again.

Speaking of useless, the guy he replaced was no gem either.


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## pbi (28 Aug 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Speaking of useless, the guy he replaced was no gem either.



Yes-very true. Ford's election is, IMHO, the result of a violent reaction. (Kind of like a rebound romance...)

As usual, I suspect that lots of people didn't vote "for" somebody: they voted "against" Miller who was seen as being too out of touch.

That said, I'm not impressed by this current buffoon act.


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## dapaterson (28 Aug 2013)

How is the mayor of Toronto like the leader of the federal Liberal party?

Rob Ford on pot: "Oh yeah, I won't deny that. I've smoked a lot of it." 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2013/08/28/toronto-rob-ford-admits-smoking-marijuana.html


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## Remius (31 Oct 2013)

And it would seem he has.  Press conference today, Blair indicates they have a video that is consistant with the media reports of him doing crack cocaine.  I believe this will be the end for him...


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> And it would seem he has.  Press conference today, Blair indicates they have a video that is consistant with the media reports of him doing crack cocaine.  I believe this will be the end for him...



How about a link, a transcript or anything else so people can make their own assumptions without relying on your, over the top, innuendo.


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## Privateer (31 Oct 2013)

Rob Ford video showing alleged crack use in police hands 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rob-ford-video-showing-alleged-crack-use-in-police-hands-1.2303146



> Toronto Mayor Rob Ford appears in a video recovered by police during the Project Traveller investigation, police Chief Bill Blair said today after Ford's friend and occasional driver was arrested on an extortion charge.
> 
> Blair said a video seized during an investigation contains images of Ford that have been described by media outlets, an apparent reference to an alleged video that shows Ford smoking crack cocaine.
> 
> ...



Link has video of press conference.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2013)

Privateer said:
			
		

> Rob Ford video showing alleged crack use in police hands
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rob-ford-video-showing-alleged-crack-use-in-police-hands-1.2303146
> 
> Link has video of press conference.



Thanks.

That's how it should have been posted.


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## Remius (31 Oct 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> How about a link, a transcript or anything else so people can make their own assumptions without relying on your, over the top, innuendo.



Sorry was a bit rushed. Didn't mean to imply innuendo about a press conference by the police chief.  My assumption was thinking you watched the news.  I'll fix that for next time to help you out.  My bad.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/10/31/rob-ford-crack-video-the-focus-of-investigation-drug-trafficking-search-warrant-documents-say/

To clarify, I don't think he can survive this.  So yes, I think we're nearing the end of Rob Ford.  We'll see though, he's survived so far.


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## PMedMoe (31 Oct 2013)

> While Blair confirmed the video exists, he said it does not contain enough evidence to lay charges against Ford.



Wonder what all the anti-Ford types will say now?

Please note, I am not for or against Ford, I just find it hilarious that everyone tries to pin something on him and nothing sticks.  Toronto has its very own Teflon Mayor!   ;D


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## Remius (31 Oct 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Wonder what all the anti-Ford types will say now?
> 
> Please note, I am not for or against Ford, I just find it hilarious that everyone tries to pin something on him and nothing sticks.  Toronto has its very own Teflon Mayor!   ;D



And that might be what saves him.  To be honest I think Ford Nation as it is known like him for his policies, keeping taxes low and fiscal prudence.  In the end who cares what he puts in his body if he manages the city properly.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> My assumption was thinking you everyone in Canada watched the news everywhere, all the time, when it concerns the Centre of the Universe.  I'll fix that for next time to help you out.  My bad.



TFTFY


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## Lightguns (1 Nov 2013)

I say Blair has a lot to answer for. He certainly is following in the steps of his predecessor.


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## The_Falcon (2 Nov 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> And that might be what saves him.  To be honest I think Ford Nation as it is known like him for his policies, keeping taxes low and fiscal prudence.  In the end who cares what he puts in his body if he manages the city properly.



I don't support people who use hard drugs period.  But I do find hypocritical to the point of nauseating, that the people now (well always) call for him to resign whatever, tended to be vocal supporters of George Smitherman who admitted that he had used "hard drugs" in his life at some point (that was as specific as he got).  And of course being the crack journalists that The Star is they didn't bother probing any further than that.  I guess so long as you are gay, and a member of the liberal party, and live in Rosedale, being an admitted drug user is not an issue for The Star or many residents of Toronto.


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## pbi (2 Nov 2013)

IMHO, this has only a little to do with the question of whether or not Ford allegedly smoked crack or not in that video, despite his lawyer's efforts to turn things in that direction. That part is a very small element. It has everything to do with the conduct of an individual who is supposed to be a leader and an individual in whom the public can reasonably place their trust.

And, BTW, I'm not  gay,  or a member of the liberal party, and I could never afford to live in Rosedale. 

A lot of people on this site, on many different threads, spill a lot of bytes of digital ink going over and over again what the traits of good leaders are, how important leadership by example is, how they dislike corruption and misbehaviour "at the top", and how they support the police.  Oh, and oppose drug use and the low lifes who associate with the drug culture. We don't allow Privates to use the excuse that they used drugs "on their own time", do we? Why permit this for a major public figure?

But now, it seems, we are suddenly prepared to make allowances (that you could drive a big black SUV through...) for a person in a very important position of high accountability and responsibility, because maybe we don't like one of the newspapers making allegations against him? Really?

It's interesting to see that the Mayor has even managed to offend those conservative bastions the National Post (I heard the Editor on the radio yesterday) and even that  journal of Ford Nation: The Sun. (Calling up one of its reporters and screaming obscenities at him probably wasn't a good Info Ops move, was it?)

Look back over the whole sad story, all of it, from the beginning, not just this shabby and disgraceful display over the video. If only 50% is true, alarm bells go off. I would not accept this behaviour from a 2Lt. A Mayor is a public figure, 24/7, just like any important public leader. He has no "private life" in which he can go and indulge whatever moral and ethical failings he may have, then come back to work and switch on the "Mr Law and Order/I support the police" track. This isn't demonstrating personal integrity.

Ineptness, immaturity, bullying behaviour, disingenuousness (to be polite), loutishness. Not traits of leadership most of us would recognize. There is a difference between being Mayor of a major metropolis and being a 19 year old swilling beer off the tailgate at a bush party, with your ball cap on backwards.. You need a different set of behaviours.

As for the Chief, good on him. He acted in the public interest, in a political culture which is all too reluctant to hold senior political leaders accountable for what they do or fail to do, be they Left, Right, or Anything.  What we might want to ask ourselves is not why the police released this information to the public, but why the  Mayor's actions may have attracted intense police attention in the first place.

Let's amend the Ontario Municipal Act to make mayoral recall possible, and spare any city ever having to go through this living nightmare again.


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## Nemo888 (2 Nov 2013)

The crack smoking only exaggerated his poor character to the point it became public. It's almost like he is a satire of everything liberals imagine is wrong with the far right. You couldn't invent a more venal and self serving politician.

Getting so trashed at a military ball he had to be thrown out, grabbing a female candidates a$$ at a party(Sarah Thomson), the racist comments, using municipal resources for fundraising for his football team, overspending campaign finance limits, not recusing himself in council votes that affect him personally, personally asking senior civil servants to approve road and drainage projects adjacent to his families business, trying to get the public land beside his home rezoned and sold to him for a pittance, his crazy driving, multiple police calls for domestic disturbances. Throw him in rehab and cut your losses before he brings the credibility of the right any further down. 

Edited to remove unsubstantiated claims.


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## OldSolduer (2 Nov 2013)

Tossing him under the bus are we?

No due process, just toss him right?


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## GAP (2 Nov 2013)

The righteous gotta be righteous..... :


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## mariomike (2 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> It has everything to do with the conduct of an individual who is supposed to be a leader and an individual in whom the public can reasonably place their trust.



"Certain recently reported actions of the Mayor" was brought up as a mitigating factor in an arbitration regarding the termination of a Toronto Paramedic. He was fired for his off-duty behavior. No charges were laid. 

The Arbitrator upheld the decision of the City of Toronto to terminate because, "Certain jobs require a high level of skill and a high level of trust from both employers and the public. For employees working in those types of positions, it’s possible that off-duty behaviour can call into question that trust, if it demonstrates poor judgment. And if an employer no longer has confidence that an employee has the judgment to perform a job of high skill and responsibility, the result could be dismissal."

I served under nine Mayors. Mayor Ford was elected after I retired. 

This is the first time - as far as I can recall - that the behaviour of our Mayor has been used as a mitigating factor during a disciplinary arbitration involving the off-duty behaviour of one of our members.

Edit to add.

Mayor Ford, Major General Richard Rohmer, Honorary Chief of Toronto EMS and Chief Raftis share a laugh at a Toronto Paramedic graduation ceremony at Emergency Services HQ.


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## Baloo (2 Nov 2013)

This was quoted elsewhere, but I agree with the sentiment that we should hold our politicians and elected officials to a higher standard than simply "not having been convicted of an offence."


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## Journeyman (2 Nov 2013)

I'm _trying_ to get all worked up over this, but I'm afraid I just don't give a crap about anything that happens in Toronto.

                      :boring:


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## GAP (2 Nov 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm _trying_ to get all worked up over this, but I'm afraid I just don't give a crap about anything that happens in Toronto.
> 
> :boring:



Well,....it's nice to have company......like about 29 million other Canadians.....


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## Journeyman (2 Nov 2013)

Yes, I gather their mayor is a bit of an idiot.  Having been posted to Toronto for three years, he seems appropriate.


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## pbi (2 Nov 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Tossing him under the bus are we?
> 
> No due process, just toss him right?


Trust and respect are the hardest things to earn (and rightly so...), and the easiest things to destroy. Anybody venturing into the lions' den of public senior leadership must realize this. 
Never mind this video scandal, as revealing and disgraceful as it may be. This individual was not "thrown under" any bus. He has flung himself under it, time and time again, despite the efforts of his key staff to drag him out of the roadway. He resolutely marches back in front of the bus each time, stopping only those  to slag those who have the gall to actually challenge him.
It seems to me that he lacks any realistic understanding of the nature and requirements of the posifion that he holds, but merely thinks he is free to act however he wants.
As GAP pointed out, Lefties must fall on their knees and pray to their deity every night that the Right associates itself with people like this.
This behaviour would not be accepted in any other major position of responsibility thatI can think of. I have no idea why it is suddenly acceptable for this sorry individual.


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## observor 69 (2 Nov 2013)

Toronto Star, Globe & Mail, National Post and the Toronto Sun, the four major daily papers in Toronto, have all recommended through their editorial page that Mayor Ford step aside.,


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## pbi (2 Nov 2013)

Yes...and the Sun was once his pit bull. He had to really work to alienate that paper, but he's done it. Oh, well,I guess Bob and Doug don't  need the media anyway: they've got Ford Radio.
Sort of like the wireless room on the Titanic....


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## Nemo888 (2 Nov 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Tossing him under the bus are we?
> 
> No due process, just toss him right?


When I fire an incompetent employee I don't have to go to court. His poor record has made him infamous worldwide. He is a serious liability.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls7Hm-2i78Q


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## George Wallace (2 Nov 2013)

Interesting factoid in news today....His popularity went up 5%, but 60% of those poled think he should not be in office.

Is our society turning into a bunch of morons?  Toronto now is the laughingstock of the world.


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## dapaterson (2 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting factoid in news today....His popularity went up 5%, but 60% of those poled think he should not be in office.
> 
> Is our society turning into a bunch of morons?  Toronto now is the laughingstock of the world.



Rob Ford.  Marion Barry.  Discuss.


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## OldSolduer (2 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> When I fire an incompetent employee I don't have to go to court. His poor record has made him infamous worldwide. He is a serious liability.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls7Hm-2i78Q



He's elected. Not an employee per se.


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## nn1988 (2 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> When I fire an incompetent employee I don't have to go to court. His poor record has made him infamous worldwide. He is a serious liability.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls7Hm-2i78Q



I like your notion of riddance. Can't Kathleen Wynne have him removed?

Anyone seen the video?? HA


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## pbi (2 Nov 2013)

Apparently not. The Ontario Municipal Act (I think I have the right name) currently has no mechanism to remove a mayor who hasn't been found guilty of a crime. The mayor of London ON, Joe Fontana, is facing criminal fraud charges but he's still in office.
IMHO we need some kind of recall legislation, similar to what exists for various officials in some states in the US.


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## armyvern (2 Nov 2013)

This is all hilarious.  The same liberal lefties who screamed for Khadeer's release - a person who was found guilty of much worse and convicted ... are screaming for this guy's resignation without so much as a single charge having been laid against him.

F'n hypocrites --- the whole damn  lot of 'em.


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## armyvern (2 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> When I fire an incompetent employee I don't have to go to court. His poor record has made him infamous worldwide. He is a serious liability.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls7Hm-2i78Q



One man's incompetent employee is another man's conspiracy theorist. _What goes around ... it comes around_ (Justin Timberlake:  words to live by).


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## pbi (2 Nov 2013)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> This is all hilarious.  The same liberal lefties who screamed for Khadeer's release - a person who was found guilty of much worse and convicted ... are screaming for this guy's resignation without so much as a single charge having been laid against him.
> 
> F'n hypocrites --- the whole damn  lot of 'em.



Liberal lefties like the Toronto Sun and the National Post, you mean?  Just because I want public officials to behave themselves, be accountable, and set some kind of example of personal integrity does not make me, or anybody else for that matter,  a "liberal leftie".


----------



## The_Falcon (3 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Liberal lefties like the Toronto Sun and the National Post, you mean?  Just because I want public officials to behave themselves, be accountable, and set some kind of example of personal integrity does not make me, or anybody else for that matter,  a "liberal leftie".



No, liberal lefty hypocrites like the Star, G&M who campaigned for Smitherman.  Like I already mentioned.  They supported someone who HAD prior hard drug use, but they never went any further than that.  They never probed to ask for all the gritty details.  The Sun and Post wanted that information but finding it not forthcoming was one of the reasons they did not support Smitherman, as they felt rightly having someone in office who had done something more serious than smoke weed was not a good thing.  The Sun and Post are more or less sticking with their principles.  The others are showing once again their two faced hypocrisy.  They openly wanted one hard drug user to be Mayor, but this one they want tossed.  

And for the record I no longer support Ford.  I could put up with the other stuff, but I draw the line at hard drug use, this is not a new stance for me.


----------



## Nemo888 (3 Nov 2013)

So then let us put the video of him smoking crack while mayor(or perhaps just smoking asthma medication out of a crack pipe with convicted crack dealers), many legal problems, abuse of position for personal gain, misuse of public funds and poor public image out of the equation

He promised to "stop the gravy train" and slash the budget by 2.05 billion while increasing funding for childcare and seniors. Budget when he tool office, 9.2 billion. Budget now, 9.4 billion. Even though he slashed, you guessed it, childcare and seniors programs. 

He promised 100 new police officers. He tried to cut their budget by 10% and failed miserably keeping them to a 0.6% increase with 196 officers off the rolls.

He also promised to eliminate the land transfer tax and build a subway to Scarborough. Both completely unrealistic and unaffordable.

I can see why Ford is appealing since he is not some weasel lawyer type. Might I suggest an engineer or other professional to run the city. Someone who can understand infrastructure and economics. Rob Ford did not lie when he made those promises. He was too stupid to know they were impossible. You should be looking for a competent replacement. 

Edited to remove unsubstantiated claim


----------



## The_Falcon (3 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> So then let us put the video of him smoking crack while mayor(or perhaps just smoking asthma medication out of a crack pipe with convicted crack dealers), many legal problems, abuse of position for personal gain, misuse of public funds and poor public image out of the equation
> 
> He promised to "stop the gravy train" and slash the budget by 2.05 billion while increasing funding for childcare and seniors. Budget when he tool office, 9.2 billion. Budget now, 9.4 billion. Even though he slashed, you guessed it, childcare and seniors programs.
> 
> ...



I guess the fact that Toronto like most Canadian cities has a weak mayor system, were he is only at the end of the day 1 vote on council matters, escaped your attention.  As far as a replacement, also last time I checked, we have these things called "elections", and people have to volunteer themselves to the process.


----------



## observor 69 (3 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I guess the fact that Toronto like most Canadian cities has a weak mayor system, were he is only at the end of the day 1 vote on council  matters, escaped your attention.  As far as a replacement, also last time I checked, we have these things called "elections", and people have to volunteer themselves to the process.



The Mayor of Toronto has a number of levers of power beyond his one vote. Appointments to committees and many other means to reward or not councillors that oppose or approve of his stance on issues before council.


----------



## The_Falcon (3 Nov 2013)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> The Mayor of Toronto has a number of levers of power beyond his one vote. Appointments to committees and many other means to reward or not councillors that oppose or approve of his stance on issues before council.



And has been repeatedly demonestrated, individual councillors won't always sing the mayor's song, even when he does appoint those he wants into places he needs them.  At the end of the day even if a mayor stacks committees with people he/she wants, the big issues still go before the entire city council which ammend/approve/disapprove recommendations from the committees, and in city council the mayor is still only 1 vote.  Look at the casino issue, flip flopping on transit, budget committee removing things and council putting them back...


----------



## observor 69 (3 Nov 2013)

Part of Mayor Ford's poor results with Council can be partly attributed to his poor skill at being able to sway/cajole council members. 
Rob and Dougie Ford 's personalities doesn't lend itself to gentle persuasion as I am sure you are well aware.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (3 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> So then let us put the video of him smoking crack while mayor(or perhaps just smoking asthma medication out of a crack pipe with convicted crack dealers), many legal problems, abuse of position for personal gain, misuse of public funds and poor public image out of the equation



Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that the video in question shows him _holding_ a crack pipe, it doesn't not show him smoking it. Now I haven't been following Mayor Ford's trials and tribulations all that well, but please provide examples of where he abused his position and misused public funds.


----------



## pbi (3 Nov 2013)

Did you hear? It's all good. Rob has announced on his radio show today that he made some "mistakes" and he's sorry for them, and he is going to carry on. He seemed to be referring mainly to two of his episodes of public drunkenness.

Soooo... as long as we're prepared to be fair and to extend the same level of forgiveness that Rob Ford wants us to give him, to all other misbehaving politicians, including ones we don't like or who don't align with our politics, then we're cool.

All they have to do is say "I'm sorry".


----------



## mariomike (4 Nov 2013)

"And as a condition of Ford keeping the mayor’s chair, ( Deputy Mayor ) Kelly wants a driver to keep an eye on him – a full-time employee, vetted by the city, “someone who picks you up in the morning, drives you around all day, drops you off at home.” "
http://globalnews.ca/news/943418/deputy-mayor-to-rob-ford-you-need-a-full-time-driver-vetted-by-council/

A friend of mine, a Line of Duty Injured ( LODI ) Paramedic, was redeployed into that job years ago.   

It involved long hours, including weekends. 

After-hours "Standby" was a written requirement because, "City Council hereby delegates its statutory authority under the City of Toronto Act, 2006, and under any other legislation, to the Mayor, exclusively for use in emergencies."

( The language was a bit different then, but basically said the same thing. )

It was a top of the line Mercury equipped with red lights and siren behind the grill. The only official marking was the licence plate: METRO 1.

“The mayor can nominate, but we should have either myself as deputy mayor or someone on his executive, or a combination of them should have the ability to approve.”

Whoever gets the job, for sure they will be required to maintain an official log of where and when the car transports the Mayor.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Nov 2013)

The irony is that many of his toughest critics likely imbibe in the same recreational activities they accuse him of and likely support the decriminalization of such drugs. However likely the voters choose him as he is the least worse candidate, which shows that Toronto does not appear to have much leadership depth.


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## The_Falcon (4 Nov 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> The irony is that many of his toughest critics likely imbibe in the same recreational activities they accuse him of and likely support the decriminalization of such drugs.



Yup that plays out on my FB wall all the time, people being critical about him allegedly using a crack pipe, while simultaneously extol the virtues of safe injection sites....of course those SI shouldn't be in THIER neighbourhoods.  I am actually quite sick of all the hypocrisy, and started taking a page from Tucker Max, I am calling you out on your blantant double standards, and frankly could care less if these acquaintances think I am an a-hole, and unfriend me.  I have told them as much I don't care, even to people I have known for years.  There really is no hair splitting when it comes to drug use with me.


----------



## pbi (4 Nov 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> "And as a condition of Ford keeping the mayor’s chair, ( Deputy Mayor ) Kelly wants a driver to keep an eye on him – a full-time employee, vetted by the city, “someone who picks you up in the morning, drives you around all day, drops you off at home.” "



What this Mayor needs is a good old-fashioned fireproof RSM who can come, in close the door, and say: "Sir, let me tell you a few things..." but it seems that he Mayor is in the habit of doing away with people who point out that the Emperor has no clothes.


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## mariomike (5 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> What this Mayor needs is a good old-fashioned fireproof RSM who can come, in close the door, and say: "Sir, let me tell you a few things..." but it seems that he Mayor is in the habit of doing away with people who point out that the Emperor has no clothes.



I think the advice he takes most seriously is from big brother Doug.

Politics aside, the immediate priority, in my opinion, is a City employee - who has been vetted by the Deputy Mayor, Council and the Executive Committee - to drive him. 

When the job is posted, it will indicate that Standby is a requirement of the job.
http://wx.toronto.ca/intra/hr/policies.nsf/0/5f2c2b9b1e81ee8785256afe00704af7?OpenDocument

( It will likely be an Accommodation position under the Modified Work Program. )


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Nov 2013)

> Toronto mayor Rob Ford has admitted that he’s smoked cracked cocaine.
> 
> “Yes, I have smoked crack cocaine,” Ford told a press scrum at city hall on Tuesday.
> 
> ...


Postmedia, 5 Nov 13


----------



## Remius (5 Nov 2013)

He didn't exactly let them ask questions either...

Link to the latest   http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mayor-rob-ford-yes-i-have-smoked-crack-cocaine-1.2415533

And Doug Ford calling on the police chief to step down  :

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-calls-on-toronto-police-chief-to-step-down-1.2415154

Toronto is in quite the mess.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (5 Nov 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> He didn't exactly let them ask questions either...
> 
> Link to the latest   http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/mayor-rob-ford-yes-i-have-smoked-crack-cocaine-1.2415533
> 
> ...



This guys is just a sideshow, albeit a very funny one, at least I find him funny  ;D

I know old Stephen is probably pretty happy Mayor Rob is around because he is taking away all the attention from the Senate Scandal  ;D


----------



## Journeyman (5 Nov 2013)

He certainly featured on Jon Stewart's The Daily Show last night.   :rofl:


Edit: changed website, since the US one doesn't work here.....something about us having free health care


----------



## The_Falcon (5 Nov 2013)

Well that final thread of support has snapped, have fun Rob.



			
				Crantor said:
			
		

> And Doug Ford calling on the police chief to step down  :
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-calls-on-toronto-police-chief-to-step-down-1.2415154
> 
> Toronto is in quite the mess.



Doug Ford isn't the only one, the former solicitor general is suggest Blair crossed a line he should not have
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/04/blair-may-have-overstepped-his-authority-senator

"A Canadian senator and former solicitor general of Ontario is among several justice system veterans saying Chief Bill Blair may have overstepped his authority by saying he was “disappointed” over the Mayor Rob Ford’s alleged crack video.

And Conservative Senator Bob Runciman said he is also concerned about details released from court documents on surveillance that didn’t allow for basic human dignity.

“I can’t recall anything like his (press) conference and his unnecessary comments ... the video and his disappointment,” Runciman said Monday.

Blair last Thursday told reporters: “I think it’s fair to say that the mayor does appear in that video but I’m not going to get into the detail of what activity is depicted on that video.” He also commented that “as a citizen of Toronto, I’m disappointed” and said “this is a traumatic issue for the citizens of this city and for the reputation of this city and that concerns me.”

Runciman, who was Ontario’s top cop from 1995-99 in the Mike Harris government, said he has no comment on Ford or his alleged activities.

But the chief’s comments, he said, must be addressed.

In Ontario’s Police Services Act, it states when it comes to engaging in “political rights,” a police officer while in uniform must not engage in “political activity that places, or is likely to place, the police officer in a position of conflict of interest.”

The Toronto Police Services Board regulations say an officer on duty is not to “express views on any issue not directly related to the police officer’s responsibilities as a police officer.”

Expressing his disappointment and speaking of a “traumatic issue” for the “reputation of the city,” is what shocked Runciman. He also expressed surprise over the “release of police notes and photo (of) mayor urinating” — the latter was taken by a spy plane.

“The public should know the tax dollars spent on this, plus justification for the same,” he said. “There is a serious issue here of use of scarce police resources and the chief should be required to explain and justify.”

Other leaders agree.

A senior member of Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s caucus said it was “shocking to see a chief of police use that choice of words toward someone who has not been charged but who may be under investigation.”

And former British Columbia premier Ujjal Dosanjh tweeted “by saying what evidence he has against Ford Blair entered political arena. Charge, put up or shut up. That’s the rule for non-political police.”

He also tweeted “Ford is a nincompoop. Chief Blair wrong to give particulars of evidence against a politician and not disclose fully” and “can’t have evidence and not produce.”

It is not the first time Blair has been criticized over video evidence. In 2010, there was Blair’s apology to Adam Nobody after his mistaken premise the video that captured a police assault on an “armed” man was “tampered” with.

Blair, nor spokesman Mark Pugash, returned an e-mail listing a series of questions surrounding his comments and other aspects of the story including oaths to secrecy, privacy, presumption of innocence, whether an outside service should be brought in and the cost of surveilling the mayor?

TPSB Chair Dr. Alok Mukherjee has yet to respond if there would be a probe. Mayor Ford’s lawyer Dennis Morris also declined to comment.

But earlier, the mayor and Councillor Doug Ford alluded to concerns of a political conspiracy and “witch-hunt” to have him removed from office.

Meanwhile, those close to Ford say an organizer of the upcoming chief’s gala suggested “it would be best that Mr. Ford not attend.”

If it was a private party it would be the chief’s choice to decide who he invites but one Ford loyalist said this time it was the mayor who was “disappointed” since he wanted to support the frontline officers and help the chief raise money for victims’ services.

Needless to say it’s a dysfunctional relationship but the mayor has vowed he will not be uninvited to the upcoming budget process and that the chief will have to deal with him on future police spending. The budgeting for surveillance money will be an interesting conversation in which one wonders whether both will be in conflict.

Runciman said there are questions even bigger that should be considered.

“If police resources were used for political purposes, that should alarm everyone, including Ford haters,” said the senator."

I happen to agree with Runciman.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (5 Nov 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> He certainly featured on Jon Stewart's The Daily Show last night.   :rofl:
> 
> 
> Edit: changed website, since the US one doesn't work here.....something about us having free health care



Hahahaha I just watched it.... Rob Ford and his "Crackstituents"


----------



## runormal (5 Nov 2013)

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/11/05/rob_ford_yes_i_have_smoked_crack_cocaine.html


Rob Ford : 'Yes, I have smoked crack cocaine.'
Rob Ford said he smoked crack about a year ago. “I don’t even remember. Probably in one of my drunken stupors.”
“Yes, I have smoked crack cocaine,” Mayor Rob Ford admitted at a surprise news conference just after noon.
“I am not an addict,” he told the stunned media.
“ I wasn’t lying . You didn’t ask the correct questions,” Ford explained to why the admission was so long in coming.
“You guys kept referring to alcohol,” he told the media.
“I want everybody in the city to see this tape. I don’t even recall there being a tape. I want to see the state I was in.
“No, I don’t do drugs.”
Ford said he smoked crack about a year ago. “I don’t even remember. Probably in one of my drunken stupors. You guys have seen the state I’ve been in.”
The admission comes six months after Ford said at a May 24 news conference, “I do not use crack cocaine. Nor am I an addict of crack cocaine.”
Since that May news conference, Ford has said many times he does not use crack.
The news conference came a week after two Star reporters disclosed that they had seen a clear video of Mayor Ford smoking what appeared to be crack from a glass pipe, calling Justin Trudeau, now Liberal leader, a “fag” and his high school football players “f------ minorities.”
At that news conference, Ford said he would not comment on a video “that I have never seen or does not exist.”
It was only last Thursday that Toronto police Chief Bill Blair confirmed the video does exist and it does show what the Star’s Kevin Donovan and Robyn Doolittle reported.
Blair’s news conference followed release of half a police document about months of surveillance of Ford and alleged drug dealer Alexander “Sandro” Lisi.
Lisi was charged Oct. 1 with drug charges and on Thursday with extortion related to “threats” to recover the video.
Ford said he’s been advised by his lawyer, Dennis Morris, not to talk to police.
“You ask the question properly, I’ll answer it,” Ford told the media. Yes, I’ve made mistakes. All I can do now is apologize and move on.
“That’s why I want to see the tape. I want everyone in the city to see this tape. I’d like to see this tape. I don’t even recall there being a tape or a video and I know that, so I want to see the state that I was in. I don’t know what else I can say.
“I made mistakes in the past and all I can do is apologize, but it is what it is. And I can’t change the past and I can apologize to my family, my friends, my colleagues and the people of this great city.”
Ford’s apology echoed his comments on his Sunday radio show with his brother, Councillor Doug Ford, that he made mistakes.
“The Danforth, that was pure stupidity. I shouldn’t have got hammered down at the Danforth,” he said.
A drunken St. Patrick’s Day 2012, he said, was things getting “a little out of control.”
Ford refused to resign on Thursday at a 64-second news conference and again on Monday.


----------



## Nemo888 (5 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Yup that plays out on my FB wall all the time, people being critical about him allegedly using a crack pipe, while simultaneously extol the virtues of safe injection sites....of course those SI shouldn't be in THIER neighbourhoods.  I am actually quite sick of all the hypocrisy, and started taking a page from Tucker Max, I am calling you out on your blantant double standards, and frankly could care less if these acquaintances think I am an a-hole, and unfriend me.  I have told them as much I don't care, even to people I have known for years.  There really is no hair splitting when it comes to drug use with me.



Do you also know soldiers who have used prostitutes? I know a few. Did you know that many prostitutes use drugs. They often contract hepatitis or AIDS from crack pipes and reusing needles. They then infect John's who then infect their partners. If a soldier and possibly his wife is taken out by Hep that costs Canada craploads of money. SI/free crack pipes is about saving money and protecting citizens from disease. Citizens like your fellow soldiers. It is not about helping the addicts. Their primary function is preventing the spread of disease. I don't see how the two are equivalent.


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## The_Falcon (5 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Do you also know soldiers who have used prostitutes? I know a few. Did you know that many prostitutes use drugs. They often contract hepatitis or AIDS from crack pipes and reusing needles. They then infect John's who then infect their partners. If a soldier and possibly his wife is taken out by Hep that costs Canada craploads of money. SI/free crack pipes is about saving money and protecting citizens from disease. Citizens like your fellow soldiers. It is not about helping the addicts. Their primary function is preventing the spread of disease. I don't see how the two are equivalent.



If you don't use protection regardless of who you sleep with, that's a personal issue.  As for you claims, either put up the hard data, or STFU.  Anything that just allows people to continue to partake in illegal activities and thereby fund criminals and terrorists, is not something that should be supported by taxpayers.


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## Journeyman (5 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> .....either put up the hard data, or STFU.


Some people have a pretty solid reputation for posting their conspiracy theories, masquerading as fact.  
Sometimes those people languish on the ignore list; sometimes the Mods get fed up and ban them.  

:dunno:  luck of the draw


----------



## The_Falcon (5 Nov 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Some people have a pretty solid reputation for posting their conspiracy theories, masquerading as fact.
> Sometimes those people languish on the ignore list; sometimes the Mods get fed up and ban them.
> 
> :dunno:  luck of the draw



Ignore list....good call....Nemo888 added.


----------



## Scott (5 Nov 2013)

Nemo, either back up your claims or stop posting here. 

Simple.

This should require no further explanation.


----------



## Nemo888 (5 Nov 2013)

You guys live in a weird little bubble. I have worked in medical care for a long time and have seen first hand spouses infected by partners who were infected by sex industry workers. Germs don't care about your moral code. The STD rate among unlicensed sex workers has always been high. Their clients are a vector between high risk and low risk groups. Stopping the infection at the source is always more effective than cleaning up the mess further down the line.
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/174/Supplement_2/S134.full.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19015565 Stopping needle sharing alone saves millions while preventing regular productive citizens from contracting STD's is of much greater value.

_"Focusing on the base assumption of decreased needle sharing as the only effect of the supervised injection facility, we found that the facility was associated with an incremental net savings of almost $14 million and 920 life-years gained over 10 years. When we also considered the health effect of increased use of safe injection practices, the incremental net savings increased to more than $20 million and the number of life-years gained to 1070. Further increases were estimated when we considered all 3 health benefits: the incremental net savings was more than $18 million and the number of life-years gained 1175. Results were sensitive to assumptions related to injection frequency, the risk of HIV transmission through needle sharing, the frequency of safe injection practices among users of the facility, the costs of HIV-related care and of operating the facility, and the proportion of users who inject in the facility._


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (5 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Do you also know soldiers who have used prostitutes? I know a few. Did you know that many prostitutes use drugs. They often contract hepatitis or AIDS from crack pipes and reusing needles. They then infect John's who then infect their partners. If a soldier and possibly his wife is taken out by Hep that costs Canada craploads of money. SI/free crack pipes is about saving money and protecting citizens from disease. Citizens like your fellow soldiers. It is not about helping the addicts. Their primary function is preventing the spread of disease. I don't see how the two are equivalent.



You don't get HIV (I am assuming that is what you meant when you wrote AIDS) from smoking from a crack pipe LOL ... you can get Hepatitis C but jesus if you are going to start making statements at least get the terminology right  :


----------



## Scott (5 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> You guys live in a weird little bubble.



Yes, pardon me, you're the only one in step. Again. Go easy on us, please.

You want to post here? Then back up what you post and generally keep to the guidelines. It ain't rocket appliances. No, I won't break that down further or you. You're fast becoming an admin burden what with all the splainin I have to do of some pretty low curb stuff.


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## Navy_Pete (5 Nov 2013)

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/pubs/_sites-lieux/insite/index-eng.php#insite

In addition to providing clean needles to prevent transmission of disease, the safe injection sits also provide counseling and other health services.

Generally not really sure how I feel about them one way or another, but as the war on drugs clearly isn't working, alternate approaches likes these seem worth a shot.  

This is a little off topic in any case, not sure this has to do with safe injection sites.  The issue with Rob Ford is that he's the mayor of the city while wandering around 'in drunken stupors' smoking crack with gangbangers.  That's a stunning display of poor judgement for the guy that's supposed to be leading the city.


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## The_Falcon (6 Nov 2013)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ahc-asc/pubs/_sites-lieux/insite/index-eng.php#insite
> 
> In addition to providing clean needles to prevent transmission of disease, the safe injection sits also provide counseling and other health services.
> 
> Generally not really sure how I feel about them one way or another, but as the war on drugs clearly isn't working, alternate approaches likes these seem worth a shot.



Within the report

On reducing bloodborne diseases
Limitations of research

*There is no direct evidence that SISs reduce rates of HIV infection, and the mathematical models used are based on assumption that may not be valid.
Baseline rates of needle sharing have not been reported for SIS users.
Self-reports of changes in needle sharing beyond the walls of SISs have not been validated.
More objective evidence of sustained changes in risk behaviours and a comparison or control group study would be needed to confidently state that SISs have a significant impact on these behaviours.*

On reducting Crime
Limitations of research

*The limitations that go with the findings of the Boyd et al. (2008) research, as pointed out by the researchers themselves, are those that must always go with using reported and official crime statistics. Specifically, violent and property crime statistics do not account for unreported victimization and public tolerance, or the extent to which that might have changed over the period under study. Further, we do not know the extent to which non-reporting of crime and public tolerance is any higher for the population living in and around the INSITE facility and in the Downtown Eastside, than it might be for the City of Vancouver overall.
We also need to be extremely skeptical of drug crime statistics as they are driven by continually changing enforcement capacity and practices. Further, for the most part these crimes, like other so-called victimless crimes, are almost never reported by anyone other than the police. With this in mind, it is perhaps safest to assume that drug crime statistics tell us very little about the nature and extent of drug crime anywhere.*

On limited OD's fatalites
*Limitations of research

There is no direct evidence that SIS influence overdose death rates and large scale and long-term, case-controlled studiesFootnote 8 would be needed to show that SISs influence overdose death rates among those who use INSITE. Mathematical modelling is based on assumptions that may not be valid.*

Discarded needles in public
*Limitations of research

For the INSITE service the objective evidence concerning littering obtained for only a short period of time before and after the service opened.
Research has not controlled for other factors that may influence littering and loitering (weather, police activity, availability of drugs, availability of syringe drop-off boxes and clean-up campaignsFootnote 9)
It may be unrealistic to expect the INSITE service to have a major impact on publicly discarded syringes because most injections that take place in the Downtown Eastside do not take place at INSITE.*

So basically some of the biggest reason's why people say these facilities are necessary, haven't borne any hard evidence to support their claim(s).  The research is full of gaping holes, and based on assumptions. 



> This is a little off topic in any case, not sure this has to do with safe injection sites.  The issue with Rob Ford is that he's the mayor of the city while wandering around 'in drunken stupors' smoking crack with gangbangers.  That's a stunning display of poor judgement for the guy that's supposed to be leading the city.



Quite a few media outlets and people that are looking to publicly lynch the guy because of his now admitted drug use (and the resultant criminality that it is connected to), are quite ardent supporters of SI's, which is basically akin to sucking and blowing at the same time.  Drug use is bad is situation A, but not bad in situation B?  It is hypocrisy at it's finest.  And as I have brought up repeatedly as an addendum to this SI thing/tacit support of drug use(rs) is again, many supported George Smitherman in becoming mayor and decided his past drug use and less the honest admission of said use, was not an impediment to him holding office, now want Ford to go because of his less than honest admission of drug use.  The star, g&m were ready to crown Simtherman mayor despite an admission to being ADDICTED to something for at least 5 YEARS (and providing no further details himself, and they didn't bother to get any).  How can they and others with a straight face now demand Ford step aside (and I am not condoning his use, merely pointing out the ridiculousness of their position), because he hit the pipe one time?

This hairsplitting on when it is acceptable and when it is not is ludicrous.


----------



## pbi (6 Nov 2013)

Well, well, well...

"_You didn't ask me the right question_"

So, let me get this right. The onus for telling the truth doesn't lie on an individual who knows that truth, it lies on the person asking him questions? Really?

Doesn't that sound just a touch disingenuous?

To me this takes us back to what has always been the major concern: the crack pipe video being IMHO an interesting but somewhat secondary issue. Just another demonstration in a very long string of demonstrations of every kind, of unsuitability for a leadership position, including apparent disregard for the advice from people around him. (Most recently, it seems, even from from Brother Doug, who didn't look too happy about this turn of events and its splashback on his own credibility)

It's strange (but instructive and quite consistent...) to see that the same Mayor who a little while ago was howling for the sacking of a lowly City employee (allegedly) caught sleeping on the job, doesn't want the same standards of strictness  and vengeance applied to him. 

Not to mention anybody in Toronto that the Toronto police may want to question voluntarily  in the future: the example from His Worship is "lawyer up and don't talk".  I'm sure that the police already find this kind of behaviour depressingly familiar.


----------



## Nemo888 (6 Nov 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CUBx5umMw0


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Well, well, well...
> 
> "_You didn't ask me the right question_"
> 
> ...



It is disingenuous and doesn't help his case, but as Christie Blatchford wrote about yesterday (and the legions of bleeding hearts who usually support people with substance abuse issues) people dealing with issues, tend to be deceitful and less than honest.  He has already shown a history of not wanting to admit his errors, so how this is shocking is a mystery to me. 



> To me this takes us back to what has always been the major concern: the crack pipe video being IMHO an interesting but somewhat secondary issue. Just another demonstration in a very long string of demonstrations of every kind, of unsuitability for a leadership position, including apparent disregard for the advice from people around him. (Most recently, it seems, even from from Brother Doug, who didn't look too happy about this turn of events and its splashback on his own credibility)



Toronto seems to have no issue voting in liars, after all they kept McGuinty in power after he lied blatantly on several instances. 


> It's strange (but instructive and quite consistent...) to see that the same Mayor who a little while ago was howling for the sacking of a lowly City employee (allegedly) caught sleeping on the job, doesn't want the same standards of strictness  and vengeance applied to him.



Do as I say, not as I do. 



> Not to mention anybody in Toronto that the Toronto police may want to question voluntarily  in the future: the example from His Worship is "lawyer up and don't talk".  I'm sure that the police already find this kind of behaviour depressingly familiar.



That's stretching it.  And last I checked in our system of government and law order, he is well within his rights (as in anybody) to do so.  Canada is not a police state (despite what some claim) and person is under no obligation to talk to police without legal counsel, no matter how much it frustrates the police.


----------



## George Wallace (6 Nov 2013)

;D

Leave it to the SUN to come up with something 'interesting':
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/home.html


> SUN POLL
> 
> Both Toronto Mayor Rob Ford and Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau have admitted to using illegal drugs while in elected office.
> Should both politicians be held to the same standard?
> ...


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ;D
> 
> Leave it to the SUN to come up with something 'interesting':
> http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/home.html



It's a fair question.  Both should be held to the same standard, but we all know that isn't going to happen.  People will make excuses for the Dauphin, he only smoked weed, he admitted it.....We are left to just take his word that is the extent of it.  No media is going to follow him day and night, or start digging around to see if he tried something a little harder, no one is going to demand he do a piss test to make sure he isn't still smoking on the job (or dabbling in harder stuff).  Ford at least (for him anyways) has the mitigating defense that he was probably so drunk, he didn't know what it was at the time, (still not acceptable IMO, but I can at least get into his head about why he wouldn't want to admit that).  Dauphin acted deliberately, he knew what he was doing was illegal, but choose to do it anyways.


----------



## Scott (6 Nov 2013)

Was Ford ever caught in a rub and tug?


----------



## pbi (6 Nov 2013)

The dug-in supporters for both of them will make all sorts of excuses (just check any news website and look at the posted comments: Ford has lots of defenders...). 

For the record, I am not a Justin Trudeau supporter and I have serious doubts about his actual suitability to be PM.

That said, I think it's hard to discount the differing circumstances under which each "admission" has happened. To me, there is a big difference between a casual admission  to something that you have never openly opposed, and doesn't really detract from your agenda, and blurting out an admission after not ony dodging, dissembling and denying, but of loudly beating a big drum about "law and order" and "support for the police" and proclaiming that the law doesn't punish drug dealers hard enough.

Context is everything, I guess. But saying "he did it too!" is a defence that only makes sense for a five year old.



> Ford at least (for him anyways) has the mitigating defense that he was probably so drunk, he didn't know what it was at the time,



And this is one of the sadder parts of the whole mess. Look at what he offers as "mitigation". I can't help asking about this man's judgement. It certainly explains comments that were made by some councillors, months ago, that the Mayor had problems that he needed to deal with. AFAIK the usual definition of a substance abuse problem is that the abuse starts to have a significant negative effect on your daily life.

Well, here we are. My advice would be to stop this silly grandstanding, go away, and get clean, from booze, drugs, and anything else. Then, sit down and actually listen to some good advice about developing a mature style of leadership.

And then, who knows? Marion Barry came back, right?


----------



## Journeyman (6 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> And then, who knows? Marion Barry came back, right?


So did OJ Simpson......for a while.


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> The dug-in supporters for both of them will make all sorts of excuses (just check any news website and look at the posted comments: Ford has lots of defenders...).
> 
> For the record, I am not a Justin Trudeau supporter and I have serious doubts about his actual suitability to be PM.
> 
> ...



Perhaps Ford has a streak of self loathing, and that his ardent support of law order, and being overly critical of others in their own indiscretions, is mere a reflection that he can not curb that behaviour in himself.  He wouldn't be the first person (politician or otherwise), to act in such a manner.


----------



## Remius (6 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> It's a fair question.  Both should be held to the same standard, but we all know that isn't going to happen.  People will make excuses for the Dauphin, he only smoked weed, he admitted it.....We are left to just take his word that is the extent of it.  No media is going to follow him day and night, or start digging around to see if he tried something a little harder, no one is going to demand he do a piss test to make sure he isn't still smoking on the job (or dabbling in harder stuff).  Ford at least (for him anyways) has the mitigating defense that he was probably so drunk, he didn't know what it was at the time, (still not acceptable IMO, but I can at least get into his head about why he wouldn't want to admit that).  Dauphin acted deliberately, he knew what he was doing was illegal, but choose to do it anyways.



I think the difference is the mainstream view of marijuana is becoming more and more accepting of it.   Many people have tried it or use it.  You were in recruiting.  When I was in recruiting everyone snickered when someone said they never tried it.  Doesn't mean they did do it, it just shows how common it has become that we find it hard to belive that someone hasn't encountered it.  Yes both are criminal acts but so is illegally downloading music or videos but plenty of people do it.   Many politicians have come forward with the admission, and while 30 years ago it might have elicited gasps of hypocritical shock it doesn't really do that now.  I doubt if it was just marijuana that this story would be making world headlines.

I'm not condoning either, but public perception is "weed, so what?"

Crack cocaine is a whole different ball of wax.  There is a clear link to organised crime here with less than desirable characters, one of whom was killed, another stabbed in prison and another up on extortion charges.  They all are in a position that could (and might indeed have) compromised the Mayor. 

His problems (and they are problems) are now affecting his job.


----------



## mariomike (6 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> My advice would be to stop this silly grandstanding, go away, and get clean, from booze, drugs, and anything else.



Of the nine Toronto Mayors and four Metro Chairmen I served under, I don't recall the sobriety of any of them ever called into question.  

The City of Toronto Emergency Plan is clear on the 24/7 responsibilities of the Mayor:
http://www.toronto.ca/wes/techservices/oem/pdf/emergency_plan.pdf

One-third of Canada's population is located within a 160 km radius of Toronto. So, politics aside, confidence in the sobriety of the Mayor is a matter of public safety.



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> It's strange (but instructive and quite consistent...) to see that the same Mayor who a little while ago was howling for the sacking of a lowly City employee (allegedly) caught sleeping on the job, doesn't want the same standards of strictness  and vengeance applied to him.



They could have filled a photo album of me sleeping resting on the job. Pillow and blanket included.


----------



## pbi (6 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Perhaps Ford has a streak of self loathing, and that his ardent support of law order, and being overly critical of overs in their own indiscretions, is mere a reflection that he can not curb that behaviour in himself.  He wouldn't be the first person (politician or otherwise), to act in such a manner.



Funny you mention this.... It was exactly what I was wondering, if perhaps deep down inside he knows that his behaviour has been disastrous and wrong, and that this knowledge has actually driven him to make the admission.

Taking a step back, and looking down from outer space, if I saw a man who has misbehaved in all the ways that he seems to have done, in so many different situations, I might wonder if he wasn't deeply upset about something, or struggling with some demon.

Maybe there will be more admissions....?


----------



## pbi (6 Nov 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> sleeping[/s] resting on the job. Pillow and blanket included.



Ahhhh.._*that's*_ why there are blankets on a gurney.... >


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Nov 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I think the difference is the mainstream view of marijuana is becoming more and more accepting of it.   Many people have tried it or use it.  You were in recruiting.  When I was in recruiting everyone snickered when someone said they never tried it.  Doesn't mean they did do it, it just shows how common it has become that we find it hard to belive that someone hasn't encountered it.  Yes both are criminal acts but so is illegally downloading music or videos but plenty of people do it.   Many politicians have come forward with the admission, and while 30 years ago it might have elicited gasps of hypocritical shock it doesn't really do that now.  I doubt if it was just marijuana that this story would be making world headlines.
> 
> I'm not condoning either, but public perception is "weed, so what?"
> 
> ...



Regardless of what society thinks, or what his own personal views are on the subject the law is the law.  We don't get to arbitrarily pick and choose which ones we follow and which ones we don't, not in a civil society at any rate.  If we don't like a particular law, there are several mechanisms in place to effect a change, however long it may take. JT by his own admission, broke the law deliberately numerous times as an elected official.  And while the leap to what most people in polite society consider criminals can be a bigger one, WRT to marijuanna use (particularly how one acquires it), and it can be like 6 degrees of separation, the link to criminals and criminality is still there since marijuanna is still illegal.  Politicians who break the law, should not hold office, period.


----------



## dapaterson (6 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Politicians who break the law, should not hold office, period.



Jaywalking is a disqualification from public office?  Doing 125 in a 100 zone?  Appointing a Supreme Court Justice who does not meet the requirements should get one turfed from office? (To be confirmed by the Supreme Court)

A very slippery slope if we apply that standard.


----------



## Nemo888 (6 Nov 2013)

Now that he has finally come clean and apologized it is hard to be mad at him. Time to stick him in rehab and put the story behind us. His attempt to rezone public lands beside his house and influencing  infrastructure projects adjacent to his family business are the more important issues as they are misuses of his office. He certainly has made Toronto famous. I expect another jump in the polls for Mr. Ford.


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Nov 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Jaywalking is a disqualification from public office?  Doing 125 in a 100 zone?  Appointing a Supreme Court Justice who does not meet the requirements should get one turfed from office? (To be confirmed by the Supreme Court)
> 
> A very slippery slope if we apply that standard.



Not really those aren't criminal offences, so let me rephrase for clarity, politicians who commit criminal offences should not hold office.  It's a standard that is applied to many jobs (including the CAF ).


----------



## Remius (6 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Not really those aren't criminal offences, so let me rephrase for clarity, politicians who commit criminal offences should not hold office.  It's a standard that is applied to many jobs (including the CAF ).



Yet many of those jobs still allow plenty to stay on or join up regardless.  Many people admit to using drugs and we still sign them on.  Some serving members break the law and we still keep them.  In fact many cops won't even charge someone for simple use or possession anymore.

I know of a few people that get their pot from friends who grow it or grow it themselves.  Six degrees of seperation can apply to just about anything really.

Politicians who's indiscretions directly affects the way they do their jobs and the effectiveness of their office should step down yes.  And it doesn't even have to be criminal behaviour either. But the people will decide if they want them in office or not.  As far as I know having a criminal record is not grounds for not being able to run for office but it will raise questions.

It's a little difficult to prescribe one standard to all cases when all cases are not equal.

When I cross the QC border with booze, I am breaking the law and it is a criminal offence.   But no one cares and I'll likely never get charged for it either.  But by your standard, I am disqualified from holding office.


----------



## pbi (6 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Not really those aren't criminal offences, so let me rephrase for clarity, politicians who commit criminal offences should not hold office.  It's a standard that is applied to many jobs (including the CAF ).



I agree, although I still like the US recall idea that doesn't strictly require criminality for grounds.



			
				Nemo888 said:
			
		

> ...His attempt to rezone public lands beside his house and influencing  infrastructure projects adjacent to his family business are the more important issues as they are misuses of his office...



To me it was always things like these, along with the whole host of other misbehaviours and questionable activities, that existed long before the crack video was even heard of, that made me wonder about his suitability. Everybody has fixated on the "Pipe and the Police Chief" (hmmmm...,possible book title there...), but as messy and loud as that has been, I see it as just another symptom.

I think there may be a lesson for conservatives here (big and small "c"), that one should be careful which horse you hook your wagon to. It seems to me that some folks on the Right end of things almost make a fetish of ignorant, boorish and ultimately embarrassing populist demagogues, which of course just plays into the finely-manicured hands of those blow-dried, gym-toned, latte-sipping metrosexuals on the Left.


----------



## Navy_Pete (6 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Within the report
> 
> ....
> 
> ...



These are two completely different issues.  The INSITE centre specifically was in place to address the downtown eastside of Vancouver shooting gallery issues.  While they weren't able to draw any specific conclusions, it's repeated numerous times that it's because of the small scope of the project and the lack of data.  Also, the average client was a heroine user for over 15 years, homeless or nearly so, and living in poverty (due to their addictions).  None of these folks are in positions of responsibility.

Additionally, you might have missed the final para;

_The annual operating cost of the INSITE service is $3,000,000 or $14.00 per visit in the year ending August 2007. The cost per individual who used INSITE for injections was approximately $1,380. The 500 most frequent users went over 400 times at an average cost per person of $13,100.

Mathematical models (see caution about validity below) showed cost to benefit ratios for the INSITE service of one dollar spent on INSITE providing 0.97 to 2.90 in benefits. That is, the total cost of preventing each HIV infection is between $52,000 and $155,000. When these mathematical models included estimates of the number of overdose deaths prevented (1.08/year), they showed cost-benefits ratios that ranged from 1.5 to 4.02. While these cost-benefit ratios are not as high as the ratios found in other studies exploring the cost-benefits of needle exchange or treatment programs, these studies are not directly comparable given that they did not involve the drug using population in the DTE._

So estimates are that the program is cost neutral or even results in significant cost savings to the health care system.

I don't think that shooting heroine is fine, but jailing these folks obviously is having no impact, so this is a different approach at addressing a serious and widespread addiction issue.

Regardless, the SI issue is a red herring and has no real bearing on Mayor Ford.  

The issue to me is that the mayor of the biggest city in Canada is getting drunk and smoking crack with with gang members.  That is no where even remotely in the same league as smoking a joint at a dinner party with some friends.  How can you trust someone to run your city that repeatedly ends up in these situations, any of which could be used to blackmail him?


----------



## nn1988 (7 Nov 2013)

<a href="http://youtu.be/hcPD7tzcU60">Notorious Ford and his rant</a>


----------



## Journeyman (7 Nov 2013)

ERR said:
			
		

> <a href="http://youtu.be/y2hN8y9vD2k">Notorious Ford and his rant</a>


It was playing on a TV during lunch today.  I was with a Brit, an American, and two other Canadians.  It may have been embarrassing, except I was facing a TV that had women's beach volleyball on.

Once I pointed out the different channel, they may have gotten strained necks, but all talk of political embarrassment ended.   :nod:


----------



## krustyrl (7 Nov 2013)

Is this buffoon not gone yet.??  What for an embarrassment of epic proportions on the worlds networks. 
As a sidenote, his antics are great fodder for the late-nite talk show circuit.!!


----------



## marinemech (7 Nov 2013)

i heard something weird on the radio today, i had to do a double take, i guess being a crack smoker increased his popularity with voters aged 19-34 from 11% up to 23%


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Nov 2013)

But of course,...........when you visit city hall now there's always a chance of being honoured with The Kilo To The City.


----------



## The Bread Guy (7 Nov 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> But of course,...........when you visit city hall now there's always a chance of being honoured with The Kilo To The City.


Does one get "piped" in to get said kilo?  >


----------



## mariomike (7 Nov 2013)

marinemech said:
			
		

> i heard something weird on the radio today, i had to do a double take, i guess being a crack smoker increased his popularity with voters aged 19-34 from 11% up to 23%



Although I no longer depend on the city for a paycheck, I still pay property tax in Toronto. In spite of everything, he's still popular with some of my neighbours, most of whom are considerably older than 19-34.



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> Ahhhh.._*that's*_ why there are blankets on a gurney.... >



Thankfully, I never had to sleep on one. That's what the couches were for!


----------



## Nemo888 (8 Nov 2013)

I though this story was dead but now yet another video has popped up. 

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/11/07/mayor_rob_ford_caught_in_video_rant.html

Most of Rob Ford's support comes from largely poorer and ethnic ridings. That I did not expect, perhaps that explains his bump in the polls. Street cred.

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/columns/2013/07/18/philip-preville-champion-of-the-working-class/


----------



## Journeyman (8 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I though this story was dead but now yet another video has popped up.


Yes, at post #116....._from yesterday afternoon_.  :not-again:


The awesome thing about this site is that you can READ too, not just post....


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Nov 2013)

Was listening to K-Rock yesterday morning and The Big Kris & Boomer show is trying to promote awareness for prostate cancer.  I guess Big Kris is going to get a prostate exam live on air from the doctor and they were asking callers what could possibly make this a better event.

One caller phoned in and this was their dialogue:

Big Kris: "Hi caller what is your name?"

Caller:  "Hey Chris this is Bill from Kingston"

Big Kris:  "Hey Bill, I am going to be getting a Prostate exam on air to raise awareness for prostate cancer, what would you do to make this event more funny?"

Bill:  "Big Kris, the first thing I would do is call Rob Ford, tell him your having a prostate exam and you want him there!  To sweeten the deal tell him you will give him some crack!"   ;D


----------



## pbi (8 Nov 2013)

I have never had any time for this person, (and this may sound odd coming from me..), but I feel like we are now verging on torturing a wounded animal. 

I didn't feel good or triumphant watching that latest video, nor watching his fumbling struggle to explain it as being "inebriated". Watching the Minister of Finance almost break into tears talking about the situation just reinforced this uneasy feeling.

This man, despite his denials, clearly has some very serious problems that he has no real idea how to deal with. He is in a swamp way, way over his head. He needs to sort himself out, before something worse happens to him. In my view, the people in his closest inner circle who are egging him on to "stay the course" may be looking after their own interests, but they are not serving Rob Ford, nor the City.

I remain convinced that he is not the man for the job, and that he needs to step down and clean up many , many things about his life, but I can't take pleasure in suffering.


----------



## Remius (8 Nov 2013)

If he had just taken a leave of absence and announced he was seeking help, likely he would have gotten kudos for it and in a year who knows, maybe even win the election.  By refusing to step down, and not really take responsibility for his actions (he blames them all on drunken stupors) he's essentially allowing the flood gates to open.  The media certainly won't leave him alone, the council is doing everything now to get rid of him or marginalise him.  I didn't know this but although the council can't remove him per se, they can cut off his office budget and remove him from the executive comitee.  Basically neutering him.  

I suspect that now we'll see more videos and hear about more stories and they are likely going to come from people who are/were close to him.

I don't know how he can subject himself to all of this.


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> I have never had any time for this person, (and this may sound odd coming from me..), but I feel like we are now verging on torturing a wounded animal.
> 
> I didn't feel good or triumphant watching that latest video, nor watching his fumbling struggle to explain it as being "inebriated". Watching the Minister of Finance almost break into tears talking about the situation just reinforced this uneasy feeling.
> 
> ...



I completely agree.  I have to wonder how much The Star paid for that video.  Ford should sue them and the person who gave the video to them (probably the person who taped it).  And before anyone chimes in with "Well, he's a public figure", etc, etc, think of this:  You're bathing your infant/toddler (in what is presumed to be a private setting) and someone secretly films it and puts it on the internet.  Grounds to sue?  You bet.


I think Ford should have done what Crantor said.  Hand over the reins to the Deputy Mayor and put himself in rehab.  Who knows?  He could have come back stronger with as much, if not more, support.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Nov 2013)

You know what they say, it is better to have been known, for better or for worse  ;D

I predict a tourism spike for Toronto.  If the city has such colorful politicians people are going to want to come see what else the city has on offer.   :nod:


----------



## the 48th regulator (8 Nov 2013)

That last video was lame.

I have gone off on a rant against GO!!! back in the day, a hell of a lot worse than that!!

I agree, take time off, clean up slim down and come back a Lion!

I must admit, I have drank from the Purple Kool aid cup, and I love the guy!

dileas

tess


----------



## Remius (8 Nov 2013)

I heard on the news that it was something like 5,000$ for the video.

Not sure if video taping someone is illegal as it would seem, despite him being drunk, he might have known he was being taped.  

I'm also not sure if video taping someone without them knowing is actually a crime either.  Anyone?


----------



## Journeyman (8 Nov 2013)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I must admit, I have drank from the Purple Kool aid cup, and I love the guy!




Thanks for affirming my thoughts Tess    ;D


			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Having been posted to Toronto for three years, he seems appropriate


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Nov 2013)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> That last video was lame.
> 
> I have gone off on a rant against GO!!! back in the day, a hell of a lot worse than that!!
> 
> ...



Agreed, guy has some personal problems that he needs to face down but I think this is why he is maintaining his popularity because normal people are able to actually connect and relate to him.  I would like to see him take a leave of absence, get himself cleaned up, take a little break from the bottle and come back a lion.

Too many politicians these days put on a facade of perfection but are a bunch of real charlatans once you peel away the layers.  The guy has some time to clean himself up and he can recover from this, he just needs to stick it to the media and tell them to stuff it!


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Nov 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I heard on the news that it was something like 5,000$ for the video.
> 
> Not sure if video taping someone is illegal as it would seem, despite him being drunk, he might have known he was being taped.
> 
> I'm also not sure if video taping someone without them knowing is actually a crime either.  Anyone?



It's in reference to the public release that may be the crime.

http://wiki.lawdepot.com/wiki/Model_and_Entertainment_Release_FAQ_-_Canada#Photograph_Rights

Mind you, I guess the video could be considered "newsworthy"....    :

Here's a comment from an article on Yahoo.  I can't vouch for the veracity:



> Yep he's a drunk who smoked crack and still found time to do this:
> 
> 1. Toronto is on track to spend less money this year than it did a year ago, the first time that's happened since the megacity was formed in 1998. While it's only $50 million less on a $9.4 billion operating budget, it's a remarkable achievement.
> 
> ...


----------



## pbi (8 Nov 2013)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Agreed, guy has some personal problems that he needs to face down but I think this is why he is maintaining his popularity because normal people are able to actually connect and relate to him.  I would like to see him take a leave of absence, get himself cleaned up, take a little break from the bottle and come back a lion.
> 
> Too many politicians these days put on a facade of perfection but are a bunch of real charlatans once you peel away the layers.  The guy has some time to clean himself up and he can recover from this, he just needs to stick it to the media and tell them to stuff it!



I see the substance abuse as only one part of the problem, although it has been made into the centre piece of everything, and probably poses the greatest immediate threat to his health (besides his weight: these are not a good combination when you mix in stress). It certainly seems to me to have been the source of concerns by councillors, officials and even his personal staff over the last year, if not longer.

For me, almost since the beginning, there have been a whole range of things, smaller or bigger, some better substantiated than others, that when taken together suggest to me that he has, at least, a judgement problem. I'm not going to trot them all out here all over again, mainly because my aim isn't really to stoke that fire again, but also because it would require a fair bit of research work to present convincingly.

Perhaps I'm too old fashioned in my view of things, but I just can't accept his record of behaviours and associations. I'm also reasonably certain that he would not accept them in others, as witnessed by an offhand comment he made a couple of weeks ago to the effect that "..._I knows lots of stuff about other people. too_." by which I took him to mean councillors, etc.

I've read that as much of 40% of Toronto's electorate "identifies with him".  I wonder how many of those who claim to support him would: a) tolerate such behaviours for a nanosecond if he was a more Centre or Left politician; or b) would ignore this range of behaviours in a teacher, doctor, police official or someone who worked for them.

As I've said before, saying "_he did it too/they all do it too_" is in my view absolutely the weakest form of moral and ethical defence I can think of. Ford's defenders don't help themselves if they trot that out.

That said, I believe that a person can salvage themselves if they really want to, and if they can get free of circles of bad influence that drag them down by telling them that stupid or destructive behaviour is really good behaviour. 

As far as the media goes, I disagree with telling them to "stuff it". He had the strong support of the National Post and the Sun, and he blew that. As part of his rehab/rethink, he needs to understand the power of the media (in all it forms, not just his radio talk show). To me a free media that is able to grill, drill and embarass people in power is not really an enemy or a threat: it is one of the very few protections citizens have against abuses of power by governments.

IMHO he needs to get smart and try to bring all media (and by extension, more Torontonians: the other 60 %) into his tent (to the exent that is actually possible). Dividing the city by demonizing people because they live south of the 401 and east of the Humber, or they like to ride bicycles, or to run on public throroughfares in charity runs, or whatever, is not productive in the long run.

Being a "Mayor of All The People" is a huge challenge, but IMHO that's what he needs to be if he is to be a truly great mayor fr what is, after all, still a pretty good city.


----------



## jollyjacktar (8 Nov 2013)

DJ Steve Porter - Rob Ford Crack Remix

 ;D


----------



## dimsum (8 Nov 2013)

I really need to get updated with the Rob Ford situation; it's news/comedy here in Australia since they've finally found a politician as ridiculous as some of their own.


----------



## Nemo888 (9 Nov 2013)

I am beginning to love Rob Ford. 

I hated him since he attempted to rezone land beside his house and sell it to himself at a fraction of market value. Most politicians have a network where favours like this are done constantly. ie You get my cousin a job in the land permit office. I vote for a rezoning project in your district that one of your major contributors wants but the majority of your constituents dislike. I then trade some sketchy permits getting passed for my brother in law becoming a parole officer, etc, etc, I love Ford because he is so staggeringly tactless he picks up the phone and tries to do these things himself and inevitably gets caught red handed. He does not even have the sense to get a staffer or family member to call for plausible deniability. He raises awareness about municipal corruption and is unsuccessful at gaining the fruits of his corruption. Ironically from this metric he is an excellent public servant. Perhaps voting for him is not so dumb after all.

There is probably another video coming soon, I won't scar you with the details.


----------



## pbi (9 Nov 2013)

This has always been a big part of my impression of him: that he is almost completely unaware of himself; of the position he holds (except as a source of power) or of the most basic tenets of ethical leadership. Coming from a very wealthy family, he seems to me to project a sense of entitlement that leads to ugly situations such as bullying the 911operators and shrieking for the head of a lowly city employee caught sleeping on the job. Many of his other actions suggest a belief that "the rules don't apply to me".
But I agree that he is almost a training aid for studying municipal corruption and misbebaviour. It's like something out of  Mississipi in the 1920's:

 "Me 'n my brother Doug run this hyah town, y' heah me, an' we doan need no po-lees chief gettin in the way!"
All the slagging aside, I still see him as a person who desperately needs help.


----------



## mariomike (10 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Coming from a very wealthy family, he seems to me to project a sense of entitlement that leads to ugly situations such as bullying the 911operators and shrieking for the head of a lowly city employee caught sleeping on the job. Many of his other actions suggest a belief that "the rules don't apply to me".



From what I have heard informally, the behavior of the Mayor has been having a negative effect on employee morale. 

It was also brought up formally as a mitigating factor during an arbitration last winter regarding a dismissal. Long before the story about him allegedly smoking crack.

This year the City of Toronto has fired Paramedics for off-duty behavior, patient care, and Staging. Three TFS members were fired over social media complaints. 

Criminal charges were not involved in any of the dismissals.


----------



## pbi (10 Nov 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> From what I have heard informally, the behavior of the Mayor has been having a negative effect on employee morale. ..



Because. IMHO, in order to pander to his base, Ford may indulge in depicting public servants as lazy wasters of the public monies, who never do a day''s work. For the people who apparently make up Ford Nation, this view of public servants is almost an article of faith. This goes back to what I said on an earlier post about using divisive tactics that set different groups of people against each other, which is a fairly common approach for populists.

Everybody hates lazy, unionized, whining, sleeping-on-the job  public servants, right? Easy target. Add that to the Mayor's apparent belief that he is above basic rules of conduct for municipal employees, and it is no wonder some City employees are taking a morale hit.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (10 Nov 2013)

marinemech said:
			
		

> i heard something weird on the radio today, i had to do a double take, i guess being a crack smoker increased his popularity with voters aged 19-34 from 11% up to 23%



Start using capitalization.

Go read the guidelines.

---Staff---


----------



## mariomike (11 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Because. IMHO, in order to pander to his base, Ford may indulge in depicting public servants as lazy wasters of the public monies, who never do a day''s work. For the people who apparently make up Ford Nation, this view of public servants is almost an article of faith. This goes back to what I said on an earlier post about using divisive tactics that set different groups of people against each other, which is a fairly common approach for populists.
> 
> Everybody hates lazy, unionized, whining, sleeping-on-the job  public servants, right? Easy target. Add that to the Mayor's apparent belief that he is above basic rules of conduct for municipal employees, and it is no wonder some City employees are taking a morale hit.



Even when I was still on the job, we used to run into the occasional, "I pay your salary" type. If they went into a "I hate unions" rant, I mentioned that we did not have, and did not seek, the right to strike. That seemed to pacify most of them.

Regarding Mayor Ford, I went downtown to Old City Hall this AM and, along with thousands of others, listened to him speak.


----------



## pbi (11 Nov 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Even when I was still on the job, we used to run into the occasional, "I pay your salary" type. If they went into a "I hate unions" rant, I mentioned that we did not have, and did not seek, the right to strike. That seemed to pacify most of them.
> 
> Regarding Mayor Ford, I went downtown to Old City Hall this AM and, along with thousands of others, listened to him speak.



 I saw that he spoke: it's good that he remembered his duty.

I have to say that I  do not agree with whoever that was who booed him. I don't care for Rob Ford at all, but that was not right. As far as I am concerned when somebody speaks at Remembrance Day, you keep your  damned mouth shut and your opinions to yourself. Don't politicize Remembrance Day.


----------



## Danjanou (12 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> I saw that he spoke: it's good that he remembered his duty.
> 
> I have to say that I  do not agree with whoever that was who booed him. I don't care for Rob Ford at all, but that was not right. As far as I am concerned when somebody speaks at Remembrance Day, you keep your  damned mouth shut and your opinions to yourself. Don't politicize Remembrance Day.



I agree and everyone around me seemed very pissed off re the booing too. I thought he did a good short on topic speech. In comparison Sunday I listed to 2 councillors, an  MP and MP at the East Toronto service drone on and on about basically who brilliant they were and that they all had long gone relatives that served and therefore they..... ah you get the idea :


----------



## bridges (12 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> I have never had any time for this person, (and this may sound odd coming from me..), but I feel like we are now verging on torturing a wounded animal.
> 
> I didn't feel good or triumphant watching that latest video, nor watching his fumbling struggle to explain it as being "inebriated". Watching the Minister of Finance almost break into tears talking about the situation just reinforced this uneasy feeling.
> 
> ...



Agreed.  I'm not quite sure he has NO idea how to deal with this... he's demonstrated a certain ability & willingness to scheme resources out of the public, for example.  But he is in over his head in terms of appropriate conduct, and someone needs to sit him down and explain this to him.  Meanwhile, those who are acting like a bunch of vultures are making themselves look no better than the mayor at this point.


----------



## tomahawk6 (13 Nov 2013)

Seems that Mr Ford now has a bobblehead doll. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-TORONTO-MAYOR-ROB-FORD-OFFICIAL-BOBBLEHEAD-Crack-ROBBIE-BOBBIE-/161148845389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2585383d4d


----------



## Danjanou (13 Nov 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Seems that Mr Ford now has a bobblehead doll.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-TORONTO-MAYOR-ROB-FORD-OFFICIAL-BOBBLEHEAD-Crack-ROBBIE-BOBBIE-/161148845389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2585383d4d



Yup and they sold out. He ordered a 1,000 of them and sold them all, autographed for $20.00 a pop all money to United WAy yesterday. 

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2013/11/08/21256276.html


----------



## cavalryman (13 Nov 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Seems that Mr Ford now has a bobblehead doll.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-TORONTO-MAYOR-ROB-FORD-OFFICIAL-BOBBLEHEAD-Crack-ROBBIE-BOBBIE-/161148845389?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2585383d4d



So it's anatomically correct, then... :nod:


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Nov 2013)

And the hits just keep on coming ....


> Mayor Rob Ford admitted during a testy and unprecedented city council debate Wednesday that he has bought illegal drugs in the last two years.
> 
> Ford made the admission shortly after 30 of the city’s 44 councillors urged him in an open letter to take a leave of absence. In a dramatic and unprecedented repudiation, the councillors who signed the letter rose one by one as Councillor Jaye Robinson read their names aloud. Ford stared straight ahead ....


_Toronto Star_, 13 Nov 13
.... with a little "please don't come to the Santa parade" thrown in:


> The Santa Claus Parade board is urging Toronto Mayor Rob Ford to reconsider his decision to march in the city’s annual holiday parade, saying his participation in Sunday's event will be a "distraction."
> 
> In a letter sent to the Office of the Mayor, event co-chair Ron Barbaro said while Ford "loves the parade" and has "every right to walk ahead of the parade," he should reconsider given the amount of media scrutiny he's been under.
> 
> ...


CTV.ca, 13 Nov 13


----------



## dapaterson (13 Nov 2013)

I wonder what Mayor Ford is planning for April 20th...


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Nov 2013)

It's like it's a big joke.

LOLz the mayor did crack, lied about it, got caught, it's all good lol.


----------



## Nemo888 (13 Nov 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> It's like it's a big joke.
> 
> LOLz the mayor did crack, lied about it, got caught, it's all good lol.



It's a scathing expose of the abuse of power that the only public employee in Toronto who can't be fired is the mayor. If one of us did any of a dozen things Ford has done we would be looking for a new job. I like it. This is what you usually have to turn over a rock to find in municipal politics. It's good for people to see it put on public display.

When I lived in Toronto The Santa Claus Parade was the busiest day of the year for the working girls downtown. Even bigger than Leaf games. It's not just the family friendly event they advertise it as. No need for Ford to cancel. It's Toronto, not Disneyland. Even Disneyland is not Disneyland. An ex's dad was a Disney exec. He died from his coke addiction.

Soldiering is an honest profession. I don't think most here could handle politics.


----------



## jollyjacktar (13 Nov 2013)

We were watching the celebrity roast in the mess after lunch.  All of us were pissing ourselves in laughter at the spectacle.  A greased pig has nothing on this guy.  Nice to see him squirm like the worm he is.


----------



## Scott (13 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> It's a scathing expose of the abuse of power that the only public employee in Toronto who can't be fired is the mayor. If one of us did any of a dozen things Ford has done we would be looking for a new job. I like it. This is what you usually have to turn over a rock to find in municipal politics. It's good for people to see it put on public display.
> 
> When I lived in Toronto The Santa Claus Parade was the busiest day of the year for the working girls downtown. Even bigger than Leaf games. It's not just the family friendly event they advertise it as. No need for Ford to cancel. It's Toronto, not Disneyland. Even Disneyland is not Disneyland. An ex's dad was a Disney exec. He died from his coke addiction.
> 
> Soldiering is an honest profession. I don't think most here could handle politics.



Getting real tired of your babble. Serious.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (13 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> It's a scathing expose of the abuse of power that the only public employee in Toronto who can't be fired is the mayor. If one of us did any of a dozen things Ford has done we would be looking for a new job. I like it. This is what you usually have to turn over a rock to find in municipal politics. It's good for people to see it put on public display.
> 
> When I lived in Toronto The Santa Claus Parade was the busiest day of the year for the working girls downtown. Even bigger than Leaf games. It's not just the family friendly event they advertise it as. No need for Ford to cancel. It's Toronto, not Disneyland. Even Disneyland is not Disneyland. An ex's dad was a Disney exec. He died from his coke addiction.
> 
> Soldiering is an honest profession. I don't think most here could handle politics.



God. Now you're an expert on prostitutes :facepalm:

Well, I guess that was to be expected.

So, where's your proof and stats for this, another of your outrageous statements.


----------



## Nemo888 (13 Nov 2013)

My best friend was a cabbie for awhile when I lived there.  I heard it first from him and later from an ex cop who I worked with. It may be an urban myth. I also was on those streets everyday as I commuted from Cabbage Town to Bay and Bloor. In summers I would run pedicab in the area and would watch them pick up tricks while I waited to pick up fares. The Parade is definitely busier than usual. At least as busy as a Leafs game. Which is weird for daytime.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (13 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> My best friend was a cabbie for awhile when I lived there.  I heard it first from him and later from an ex cop who I worked with. It may be an urban myth. I also was on those streets everyday as I commuted from Cabbage Town to Bay and Bloor. In summers I would run pedicab in the area and would watch them pick up tricks while I waited to pick up fares. The Parade is definitely busier than usual. At least as busy as a Leafs game. Which is weird for daytime.



Look, just stop the over the top rhetoric on every post.

No one cares about the opinion you try post as fact.

Just stop all the crap you post. 

No one is listening.

We've become so used to your stuff, that if you post something, we want to see solid, vetted backup for your statements.

I'll wager you have the largest "Ignore" list membership on the board.

Just a guess mind.


----------



## Journeyman (13 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'll wager you have the largest "Ignore" list membership on the board.


 :nod:

But he's not alone there.


----------



## Nemo888 (13 Nov 2013)

Schadenford.


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Nov 2013)

Coke, pot, both illegal.  I don't care if a politician tells the truth or not.  If he admitted use, or used and lied about it, it was illegal.  If you're going to demand one be out of office, have the decency to show some consistency in your philosophy and demand all of them leave.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (14 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Schadenford.



Taking pleasure in Rob Ford's misfortunes does not allow you to wallow in his predicament, no matter how you try parse the original word to suit your situation.

You're a hairline from your own epichairekakia on this same forum.

---Staff---


----------



## The_Falcon (14 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Look, just stop the over the top rhetoric on every post.
> 
> No one cares about the opinion you try post as fact.
> 
> ...



The ignore function doesn't do it's job when un-ignored people quote him...just sayin :-\


----------



## dapaterson (14 Nov 2013)

And now, following the release of additional information from the ITO, Rob Ford is threatening legal action.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rob-ford-threatens-legal-action-over-court-documents-1.2426060


I think the single greatest line (in context) has to be: "I've got more than enough to eat at home"


----------



## Rifleman62 (14 Nov 2013)

I'm so confused by this drug stuff.....


----------



## X Royal (14 Nov 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And now, following the release of additional information from the ITO, Rob Ford is threatening legal action.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rob-ford-threatens-legal-action-over-court-documents-1.2426060
> 
> ...


I believe one the the ones he's threatening to sue is former Canadian Forces. If I recall correctly his former chief of staff Mark Towhey was an officer in The RCR.


----------



## X Royal (14 Nov 2013)

Now I've finally got the forums search feature to work Mark has posted on this forum before.
He posted as a guest ( towhey ) approximately 10 years ago.


----------



## dapaterson (14 Nov 2013)

And in the, "No, seriously, this isn't from The Onion" department, Charlie Sheen has offered to help Mayor Ford.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/entertainment/charlie-sheen-offers-rob-ford-his-steady-hand-following-phony-report-1.1543695



> If I can be of any assistance in any capacity in this media cesspool, please accept the noble offer of my steady hand and compassionate heart.


----------



## JorgSlice (14 Nov 2013)

Popular gambling site Bodog.ca is offering its users to bet on the next move/fate of Ford before Dec 2013.


----------



## Old Sweat (14 Nov 2013)

And the Fords will have a TV program at 2000 hrs on Mondays on Sun TV.


----------



## FJAG (14 Nov 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> And the Fords will have a TV program at 2000 hrs on Mondays on Sun TV.



I'm even more glad then ever that the CRTC turned down Sun's application for mandatory carriage.

I might have accidentally tuned into this show and gone blind.

 :cheers:


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Nov 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I think the single greatest line (in context) has to be: "I've got more than enough to eat at home"


 :rofl:
Gold, Jerry, gold!

One wouldn't want to jinx it by saying, "this CAN'T get goofier...."


----------



## FJAG (14 Nov 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And now, following the release of additional information from the ITO, Rob Ford is threatening legal action.



The below is an article as to why such a suit would probably be unsuccessful.

http://www.slaw.ca/2013/11/14/are-reports-to-the-police-protected-from-defamation-suits/

:cheers:


----------



## dapaterson (14 Nov 2013)

FJAG said:
			
		

> The below is an article as to why such a suit would probably be unsuccessful.
> 
> http://www.slaw.ca/2013/11/14/are-reports-to-the-police-protected-from-defamation-suits/
> 
> :cheers:



I wouldn't think that common sense will have much of an impact on "Chirs Farley Tribute Mayor, Rob Ford" (Thanks, Colbert Report for that quip).


----------



## cupper (14 Nov 2013)

Oy.


----------



## OldSolduer (15 Nov 2013)

X Royal said:
			
		

> I believe one the the ones he's threatening to sue is former Canadian Forces. If I recall correctly his former chief of staff Mark Towhey was an officer in The RCR.



I knew him in the Patricias.

93 or 94


----------



## X Royal (15 Nov 2013)

Yes Jim you are correct he was with the PPCLI. I have been in contact with Mark Towhey.
The RCR officer I remembered was Capt. Twohey. I think his first name was also Mark but am not sure.
It's been almost 24 years since I served with Capt. Twohey.


----------



## a_majoor (16 Nov 2013)

Perhaps the saddest part of the entire affair is that the people of Toronto electing Rob Ford actually represents a singing rebuke to the professional political class and indeed the entire "deep government" structure of all those "right thinking" people in academia, the bureaucracy, the judiciary and media who are so absolutely certain _they_ know best how to run our lives and our society.

While the actual outcomes of education, healthcare, the state of civic infrastructure or ability for low and middle income people to be able to get actual representation in the courts is constantly declining, this cadre not only patronizingly dismisses any suggestions that they are doing a bad job but also ferociously fights for even greater access to perques and power paid for by taxpayers (like you and I).

Electing Rob Ford (and I would argue Stephen Harper as well) is a sign that the taxpayers are no longer willing to abide by the "rules" these so called elites have created. The unfortunate fact that Rob Ford is a man with large personal issues and failings which make him unsuitable to be Mayor of Toronto makes it easy to dismiss the larger point, although the personal attacks and extraordinary means used in attempt to overturn the will of the voters even before this suggest that even if Rob Ford was a man of unimpeachable integrity he still would have been under constant attack for the duration of his term.

This is really a modified form of the SLAPP lawsuit in action, attempting to drive out or discourage people who really want to make changes, and silence those who want to speak out against the current actors and system. You can already see the glee in the eyes of the pundits who hope with all their hearts Olivia Chow will become Mayor of Toronto; even though she is no friend of the taxpayers (and indeed I could see her brand of politics in action making her a deadly enemy of taxpayers and small business), any potential opponent will be getting the Rob Ford treatment the moment they even opine on the idea of running for Mayor.


----------



## The_Falcon (16 Nov 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Perhaps the saddest part of the entire affair is that the people of Toronto electing Rob Ford actually represents a singing rebuke to the professional political class and indeed the entire "deep government" structure of all those "right thinking" people in academia, the bureaucracy, the judiciary and media who are so absolutely certain _they_ know best how to run our lives and our society.
> 
> While the actual outcomes of education, healthcare, the state of civic infrastructure or ability for low and middle income people to be able to get actual representation in the courts is constantly declining, this cadre not only patronizingly dismisses any suggestions that they are doing a bad job but also ferociously fights for even greater access to perques and power paid for by taxpayers (like you and I).
> 
> ...



This article addresses precisely what you are getting at http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/15/ford-nation-vs-political-class.  Furey mentions a Star article about were supposedly 50 or so behind the scenes people met at a high priced Toronto law firm, to discuss strategy (and entice John Tory to run) for the next election.  Furey mentions while the "elites" will breath a sigh of relief that "something" is going to be done about this issue, a great swath of the rest us (including myself) see this as nothing more than "political class" practicing the same old same old.  

A friend of mine is actually going to put his name in.  He is not doing it for shits and giggles, he actually intends to run a serious campaign, as hard as that will be for someone who is not connected.  With the ability of social media and viral marketing to spread a message without incurring huge costs, who knows.....


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Nov 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Perhaps the saddest part of the entire affair is that the people of Toronto electing Rob Ford actually represents a singing rebuke to the professional political class and indeed the entire "deep government" structure of all those "right thinking" people in academia, the bureaucracy, the judiciary and media who are so absolutely certain _they_ know best how to run our lives and our society.



Great points.

What happens when our two options for political leaders become
1. Typical mealy mouthed politicians who screw off campaign promises and behave like typical politican-elites keeping up the 'same ole same ole'; or
2. Rod Ford-ish type down to earth politicans who apparently get shit down but have train wrecks for personal lives/are involved in "non-politican/usual politician" type criminal activity such as drugs.


It's probably not a good sign that I trust a crack smoking lying trainwreck politican more than I trust our "typical" ones.


----------



## The_Falcon (16 Nov 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Great points.
> 
> What happens when our two options for political leaders become
> 1. Typical mealy mouthed politicians who screw off campaign promises and behave like typical politican-elites keeping up the 'same ole same ole'; or
> ...



The second point, one of my friends screen capped an interview Doug Ford had with CNN, behind him under a desk is a 40oz of Grey Goose......43 other politicians in silly hall, I bet you if you searched their offices, cars etc.  a person would probably find stuff, some not legal.  They have just been more discreet.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Nov 2013)

[quote author=Hatchet Man]
The second point, one of my friends screen capped an interview Doug Ford had with CNN, behind him under a desk is a 40oz of Grey Goose......43 other politicians in silly hall, I bet you if you searched their offices, cars etc.  a person would probably find stuff, some not legal.  They have just been more discreet.
[/quote]

Without a doubt.  I can't excuse his behavior but I'm sitting here wondering why I like him more than the rest of his calling.


----------



## observor 69 (16 Nov 2013)

From the Nov 16 Sat. TO Star:

"On Ford, I shouldn’t have been so polite: Mallick

I’d like to say I warned you at election time but I didn’t. A braver columnist would have said many things.

For instance, it may very well be true that Ford is intoxicated daily. But his behaviour was so eccentric that I often wondered if the man was mentally ill. Yes, I’m saying it now but a braver columnist would have said it back then. 


Ford is stupid. He has trouble with his native language. His nouns and verbs don’t match. His words emerge from a cruder era. His thoughts crash into each other. For instance, Ford claims it is insulting for media to repeat witness statements that his friend, the mysterious “Alana,” is a prostitute but it is not insulting for him, in his next breath, to refer to his wife’s genitals. 

This is astounding. If he was not drunk outside his office when he said that Thursday morning, was he just at his usual level of idiocy or had he slipped the ropes that moored him to sanity? 
Even now as the Americans — and the planet — howl with laughter, we are watching our words carefully because Ford is so pink and overweight that it seems improbable that he doesn’t simply keel over on camera. We say this as if we are under the impression that our words could cause this to happen. 

No, it will be the drugs, cigarettes, crack, coke, KFC, a car crash, a fall or a fight with the wrong person, which could be Renata’s mother, frankly. Typing won’t finish off Ford, he will.

And his public descent has accomplished good things, let’s not forget that. Young prostitutes are heading back to community college in droves. I now look at wine, even the pleasant Chilean organic wines sitting in my fridge, with a level of fear. Ford Escorts are being renamed. Sun News TV, which has just given the Fords their own show starting Monday, is presumably having a rethink.

I hope they’re not because Sun News offers a handy little corral for the slower among us — it’s like a bouncy hate castle for grown-ups — and it comes with lanyards and badges that read We Voted for Ford.

My badge reads I Warned You. But I didn’t really. I held back, which I regret, and I offer so many apologies. To paraphrase our mayor, I will never ever ever do it again. Moving forward . . . "

hmallick@thestar.ca 


A rather harsh statement on Ford but mostly correct in noting the aspects of the man behind City council moves to  seek his resignation.


----------



## Edward Campbell (16 Nov 2013)

I never thought I'd say this, because I always thought Mayor Ford was a buffoon, at best, but he must have done something right ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
... Anyone who is on the wrong side of Heather Mallick will be carried off, by Brunhilde or one of her ilk, to Valhalla, when the time is ripe.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2013)

Mallick is a self serving hack.


----------



## Brad Sallows (16 Nov 2013)

Can't say I approve of Ford's personal conduct.

Can't say I approve of his fellow politicians who have taken the opportunity to achieve within the confines of city hall what they can not achieve openly at the ballot box, while allegations still remain unproven in a court.

I think the second point is going to outweigh the first among the largest plurality of voters.


----------



## pbi (16 Nov 2013)

> This is really a modified form of the SLAPP lawsuit in action, attempting to drive out or discourage people who really want to make changes, and silence those who want to speak out against the current actors and system. You can already see the glee in the eyes of the pundits who hope with all their hearts Olivia Chow will become Mayor of Toronto; even though she is no friend of the taxpayers (and indeed I could see her brand of politics in action making her a deadly enemy of taxpayers and small business), any potential opponent will be getting the Rob Ford treatment the moment they even opine on the idea of running for Mayor.



I see the conspiracy mongering has begun already.

Nobody in their right mind hopes that Olivia Chow will be Mayor, and this sad litany of idiocy has nothing whatsoever to do with SLAPP.  If anything, Mayor Ford expresses himself too freely. If people "really want to make changes", they can start by demonstrating some basic tenets of public leadership. This man is a disgusting train wreck who should be removed as quickly as possible, except that unlike BC or several US states, we actually have no  machinery to do that. The public musings of Premier Wynne about "helping Toronto"  are just that: musings. She is the premier of a minority government. The Ontario PCs, who , (unlike their Federal counterparts), have remained amazingly silent on this entire agonizing mess, would never allow any action to be taken that could be construed as against Ford, lest they alienate their base in T.O. 

I have been around for a few years now, and I have never, ever, seen a Canadian political leader who has actually or allegedly violated so many tenets of leadership as I understand them to exist.  Nor have I ever seen one who has attracted so much ridicule and negative attention to a city that definitely does not deserve it. Crack smoking, for me anyway, is the least of it all.

Once upon a time, councillors were willing to work with him: if this were not true, none of of his pet projects would have passed muster: don't forget that although he has the Executive Council to set the municipal agenda, he is only one vote. Without the support  of a majority of councillors, none of his initiatives would have passed.

He has now managed to wreck that. It is essentially him and his brother against Council.  Council has taken those actions which it appears are legal under the acts creating and governing the existence of Toronto as a political entity. Ford may not like it, and may well seek to threaten or intimidate council with his lawyers and his money, but he must remember that municipal democracy is not about one person: it is about a Council elected from across the City, and vested with certain powers. He is now feeling the weight of those powers.

People on the Right need to ask themselves if this is the best they can do: another loudmouthed, bullying, misbehaving, self-entitled buffoon who parades his ignorance as a badge of honour.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2013)

I don't live there.
I don't vote there.
What he does has no impact on me.
Just because he is a Canadian mayor, I'm not embarrassed by him.
I just can't seem to muster the righteous indignation that some others here seem capable of.
I could really care less what happens, although it would be interesting if he ran and won the next election.

If anything, he's been able to slap that smug smirk off the face of many Canadians in their view of America by giving us our own Marion Barry or Kwame Kilpatrick.

Let he who is without sin.... yada yada.


----------



## observor 69 (16 Nov 2013)

The community just to the west of TO, pop.668,550 (2006,) has a 92 year old grandmother as Mayor and they're doing just fine thank you very much.  :nod:


----------



## the 48th regulator (16 Nov 2013)

And Rob Ford continues to be the Epic Mayor that he is!!!

 :blotto:

dileas

tess


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2013)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> The community just to the west of TO, pop.668,550 (2006,) has a 92 year old grandmother as Mayor and they're doing just fine thank you very much.  :nod:



I remember seeing Her Worship in action during the 1979 emergency in her city.

Looks, for now at least, like our Deputy Mayor will be in charge should the city go into Emergency Operations.


----------



## a_majoor (16 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> This article addresses precisely what you are getting at http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/15/ford-nation-vs-political-class.  Furey mentions a Star article about were supposedly 50 or so behind the scenes people met at a high priced Toronto law firm, to discuss strategy (and entice John Tory to run) for the next election.  Furey mentions while the "elites" will breath a sigh of relief that "something" is going to be done about this issue, a great swath of the rest us (including myself) see this as nothing more than "political class" practicing the same old same old.
> 
> A friend of mine is actually going to put his name in.  He is not doing it for shits and giggles, he actually intends to run a serious campaign, as hard as that will be for someone who is not connected.  With the ability of social media and viral marketing to spread a message without incurring huge costs, who knows.....



Best of luck to your friend. I am in Kingston so my ability to help is very limited, but anything to throw sand into the gears of the "elites" who will breath a sigh of relief that "something" is going to be done; perhaps if they did a little less "something" in the past we would not have reached the situation where Rob Ford looked like the best answer to the elites for many voters...

And PBI, there is plenty of stuff out in the open on the various expressions of shock and outrage that Ford was elected in the first place, the sustained efforts to unseat him long before this video and even the openly expressed hope that Olivia Chow will be able to sweep into power in the next election (and if Olivia Chow isn't a card carrying member of the "political elite class" then who is?), so this is more like reading the spoor on the ground than any conspiracy theory. I can only imagine the treatment Hatchet Man's friend will receive once he announces.


----------



## X Royal (17 Nov 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I can only imagine the treatment Hatchet Man's friend will receive once he announces.



I'm sure you can after your run for mayor in London a few years back.


----------



## The_Falcon (17 Nov 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I can only imagine the treatment Hatchet Man's friend will receive once he announces.



Probably very little, like most people who aren't part of "the establishment", a news outlet may do an obligatory story about the "other candidates" usually they are just fluff pieces talking about the 20-30 or so others who have thrown there name in.  Most of the time it's because they can, or to get a little notoriety (cough Enza cough).  He has a pretty solid twitter following, and has self published a few of his own writings (and I think may have served the 48th Regulator aka Tess a pint or two at some point), so he actually intend to make a concerted effort and get his name out there.  We are doing our research of the possible candidates, issues for platform ideas, counterpoints. I hope we do well.

As for Chow, as mentioned there has been considerable talk about her running, and quite a bit of support for her to do so.  The star and, G&M, and Toronto Life have speculated about her running, and how it will save us all.  :


----------



## Nemo888 (17 Nov 2013)

The votes for Rob Ford look like anti-amalgamation protest votes on the map.  For me that is ironic because it was introduced by Mike Harris, the farthest right politician Ontarians have ever elected. I also though it was a very brave long term policy. In the late 90's Detroit's future was already written and everyone saw that what is happening now was _inevitable_. Then as now metro Detroit was surrounded by some of the wealthiest suburbs in America.  Oakland County is the fourth wealthiest in America for instance. Everyone fled metro Detroit for greater Detroit. Starved of taxes and resources city centres rot and die. The same thing was happening all over Ontario. So a right wing Premier saw this in our future and fixed the problem with amalgamation. Now city centres in Ontario are booming.  The alternative was Detroit style rotten core syndrome.  It's takes political courage to do something unpopular that helps people who don't vote for you a decade after you retire. Great job Mike Harris.







WTF with the one pink Smitherman neighborhood up in Vaughan(?) near the train yards??? Is it a huge GO train stop or something?


----------



## dapaterson (17 Nov 2013)

Saturday Night Live did their cold open with a Rob Ford theme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fcNDlhHFNw


Followed by Weekend Update:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mhFqgy9Q3A


----------



## jollyjacktar (17 Nov 2013)

:rofl:   You can't say he didn't have that coming.


----------



## mariomike (17 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> So a right wing Premier saw this in our future and fixed the problem with amalgamation.



Some departments were affected by it. Others not at all.

For example, the six fire departments were amalgamated into one. 

But, Metro Police had already amalgamated in 1957, and the Department of Emergency Services ( EMS ) in 1967.


----------



## a_majoor (17 Nov 2013)

X Royal said:
			
		

> I'm sure you can after your run for mayor in London a few years back.



Indeed, although my campaign was more of a "how not to" exercise. The advantage for non establishment politicians today is there is a far greater access to non traditional channels for getting the word out than back in 06, although that cuts both ways; the "elites" can pay to have their messages pushed to the top of Google and probably manipulate other social media channels as well. Of course the person who defends everything defends nothing, so diverting dollars from traditional campaigning may be a good thing.

Hatchetman

I would also suggest that your friend researches and does the numbers. Although the political class is loath to talk about numbers, and will go to dizzying lengths to change the subject (or if pressed compare apples to building material), this is an effective tactic. Both Mayor DeCicco and then challenger Joe Fontana started their campaigns with an emphasis on Toronto garbage being trucked down the 401 as their key campaign issues, by doggedly sticking to the numbers both of them eventually changed their tunes as the campaign progressed, and discussions about finances and taxes were high on the list towards the end (although not as much as I would like, and certainly not enough to sway the election, otherwise I wouldn't be writing to you on Army.ca now!  ). You might not see any real effect in the campaign world (the Media faithfully stuck to the "narrative" in London, and I think they might actually have been puzzeled and even a bit annoyed that the "narrative" was changing from underneath them).

And of course cultivating legacy media is a good thing in Toronto, where there is a large media market and it is harder to get shut out. He might be able to get a reporter, talk show radio host or (low probability/high payoff) TV personality interested in following his campaign. I managed to get two talk show hosts to give me more than cursory coverage because I could supply a good sound bite and sounded halfway intelligent on their call in shows, skill sets your friend should start working on now. Practicing for ambush questions is also a skillset to be developed. While I doubt your friend or most people in his circle have the issues Rob Ford has, a detailed life review by your friend and his inner circle of advisors is probably desirable. You know the press and opposition are going to do this, be prepared. I suspect that now even relatively trivial events (parking ticket, controversial letter to editor, indescreet social media faux pas) could be vacuumed up and held as ammunition to make things difficult, and set your friend back on his heels (especially if he is gaining any traction).

Other lessons learned is to boil your campaign down to an "elevator pitch" (i.e. can you explain your campaign in the time it takes an elevator to go up or down a floor). Sadly for people like myself who like discourse, most people don't and are unwilling or unable to sit down for a big, detailed pitch of how he is going to change Toronto.


----------



## The_Falcon (17 Nov 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Indeed, although my campaign was more of a "how not to" exercise. The advantage for non establishment politicians today is there is a far greater access to non traditional channels for getting the word out than back in 06, although that cuts both ways; the "elites" can pay to have their messages pushed to the top of Google and probably manipulate other social media channels as well. Of course the person who defends everything defends nothing, so diverting dollars from traditional campaigning may be a good thing.
> 
> Hatchetman
> 
> ...



Trust me we have been discussing alot of this for over a year (quick sound bites, hard details, responding to loaded questions etc) now (almost 2 really)  It started off more as a joke between our circle of friends, but has gotten more serious, and I have on numerous occasions (especially when he and others pointed out Ford's earlier and seemingly minor now, trangressions) pointed out his own past, and done the hypotheticals... 48th Regulator is on my Facebook (probably doesn't realize though), he can see some of the battles we refer to as "Thunderdome".   But I will still pass on your advice , thanks.


----------



## Kilo_302 (17 Nov 2013)

That Rob Ford is a reaction to the "political elites" that "run our lives" is at once hilarious and depressing. Rob Ford IS ELITE. His dad was an MPP, he has inherited a family business, and he has NOT done a day's worth of honest work in his life. Just because he can't string 3 words together in a proper sentence doesn't mean he is somehow "of the people." I for one want my politicians to be "elite." This means I want them to be educated, intelligent, intellectually open and honest and ambitious. 

The train wreck that is Rob Ford speaks to one of my posts on the tragic "Deconstructing Progressive Thought" thread on this site. He represents the conservative elite and their overall project to cut spending, cut taxes and thereby achieve an upward transfer of wealth. This austerity nonsense only helps those who don't need it, those at the top. And to sell their bullshit policies 
(that have been proven to be wrong, over and over and over again), they've hired a plain speaking Argos fan who also happens to have a drug problem. And many of those who are rightly fed up with politics bought it, hook, line and sinker. The conservative movement in North America has organized, and they have realized that emotion works better than thinking. So we get the Tea Party, we get Ford Nation, and the very people who are hurt by these movements end up supporting them because _it feels good_. Everyone is right to be angry, but let's be angry at the right fucking thing here. And that thing is an overabundance of corporate power, wealth inequality, and as a result, a far less democratic society. Rob Ford is here to pretend there's a revolution going on, while he's working for the man, because he IS the man. And don't take this as a pro Miller post. David Miller embraced neo-liberalism (this has nothing to do with being 'liberal'. We do not have liberal politicians at all anymore) just like the rest of them. What we have to realize is that we don't have choices, because we aren't supposed to.

I can't abide the line of thinking that goes "liberal elites run the world, let's run them out of town and replace them with a Bush/Ford type person." That makes no sense at all. These guys are the epitome of elite. Who else can drink on the job and drive around buying drugs and NOT get arrested?  Let's be real here. Ford has more in common with SA gangsters than any other politician of recent memory. He is a thug and a bully and he is a damaged self-'loathing person, and we all deserve him because we all have allowed our system to be hijacked by private interests.


----------



## pbi (17 Nov 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> That Rob Ford is a reaction to the "political elites" that "run our lives" is at once hilarious and depressing. Rob Ford IS ELITE. His dad was an MPP, he has inherited a family business, and he has NOT done a day's worth of honest work in his life. Just because he can't string 3 words together in a proper sentence doesn't mean he is somehow "of the people." I for one want my politicians to be "elite." This means I want them to be educated, intelligent, intellectually open and honest and ambitious... . Ford has more in common with SA gangsters than any other politician of recent memory. He is a thug and a bully and he is a damaged self-'loathing person, and we all deserve him because we all have allowed our system to be hijacked by private interests.



 First, I'm glad somebody has seen through this patently phony "little guy" act. Ford, in my opinion, epitomizes the behaviour of any spoiled, monied rich kid with an overweening sense of entitlement and of "one law for me, one law for you". A lesser employee of the City would have been sacked ages ago. It doesn't matter what point on the political spectrum he supposedly comes from.

As the recent statement by Minister Chris Alexander suggests, even the Harper Tories have realized that this guy is poison, along with others who are now shunning him, such as the Argos management (hardly a coterie of liberal, elite, bicycle riding, latte-sippers scheming for the triumph of  the nanny state); the Ford Motor Company, and the Santa Claus Parade (another well known gang of anti-business leftist tree-huggers).

And this, to me, points out the bigger problem as we move forward and gradually leave Rob Ford smouldering in the rear-view mirror. Conservatism has some good things to offer society: indeed, in some reasonable form it may be the salvation of our way of life from IOUs written on our children by untenable social programs and silly government spending. The encouragement of initiative, of business, and of investment are all good things we typically associate with conservative platforms.

So why, oh why, does the conservative movement seem inexorably drawn to people like Ford, or Sarah Palin, or Michelle Bachmann, or Rush Limbaugh? These caricatures merely convince middle-of-the-roaders (lefties don't need to be convinced) that conservatism champions boorishness, ignorance, anti-intellectualism, xenophobia, homophobia, religious fundamentalism, blah, blah, blah.

There have been, and there are, some honourable people who march under the banner of conservatism. As I have noted elsewhere, I think that Mr Boehner in the US is one. To a certain extent, Mayor Bloomberg of New York was another. I think Bush senior was a third.  Harper, although I am not happy with him about everything, seems to me to be an honourable and respectable individual who actually values the family, and conducts his personal life in a manner that, thus far, has been above reproach. To be a conservative is NOT automatically to be a lout.

So what's the attraction? I don't get it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (17 Nov 2013)

Your definition and characteristics are not confined to the conservative\ right.

The liberal\ left have plenty of skeletons and ill defined traits of their own.

That big brush your using strokes both ways.

Let's quit pretending it doesn't.


----------



## pbi (17 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Your definition and characteristics are not confined to the conservative\ right.
> 
> The liberal\ left have plenty of skeletons and ill defined traits of their own.
> 
> ...



Actually, I'm not pretending anything. I'm asking a question specifically about the conservative movement, not about the Centre or the Left.  I mean it to be a question, not a backhanded praising of NDP or Liberals by slamming conservatives.  In fact, I'll even add Tim Hudak to the list as a political figure on the conservative side who, as far as I can tell, behaves himself very well. 

If we say "the liberals/left do dumb stuff too so it's OK" we are verging on moral relativism, which isn't what I'm after.


----------



## Edward Campbell (17 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> First, I'm glad somebody has seen through this patently phony "little guy" act. Ford, in my opinion, epitomizes the behaviour of any spoiled, monied rich kid with an overweening sense of entitlement and of "one law for me, one law for you". A lesser employee of the City would have been sacked ages ago. It doesn't matter what point on the political spectrum he supposedly comes from.
> 
> As the recent statement by Minister Chris Alexander suggests, even the Harper Tories have realized that this guy is poison, along with others who are now shunning him, such as the Argos management (hardly a coterie of liberal, elite, bicycle riding, latte-sippers scheming for the triumph of  the nanny state); the Ford Motor Company, and the Santa Claus Parade (another well known gang of anti-business leftist tree-huggers).
> 
> ...




It isn't that _conservatives_ or Conservatives are attracted to Ford and Limaugh (who is also a son of privilege masquerading as _everyman_) it is that they, Ford, Limaugh, _et al_ are so consumed with hate for _progressive_ change that they have flocked to the least _progressive_ alternative. But: gay rights and abortion and all those other _fair_ and _equitable_ social policies are, now, part of the fabric of society and Ford and Limbagh and all the others have no place to go because neither Stephen Harper nor Tony Abbott, neither David Cameron nor the next Republican leader in the USA are going to undo those policies.

The only hope for 21st century _conservatism_ is to unceremoniosly dump the _social conservatives_ and, especially, the _religious right_, and return to proper, modern, conservatism, à la Eisenhower's GOP, and adhere to small town/small business values of social moderation, fairness, equity and fiscal responsibility.


----------



## Kilo_302 (17 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Your definition and characteristics are not confined to the conservative\ right.
> 
> The liberal\ left have plenty of skeletons and ill defined traits of their own.
> 
> ...



You're assuming I support some or any of our "liberal/left" politicians. I do not (althought Linda McQuaig has said some pretty impressively honest things about austerity and cuts public programs). We don't have a left wing in mainstream politics in Canada to speak of. The NDP just dropped the socialist language in their party charter, and the Liberals are much the same as the Conservatives when it comes to appeasing corporate power. Look at the throne speech. Giving us pathetic crumbs in the form of a better cable package and lower cell bills? And the worst part is that this was ripped from NDP policy. We have been reduced to consumers, and no one in party politics is mounting an effective structural critique of our economy or the reality of corporate power. 

As things get worse (and believe me they will), we will see more Rob Fords. Politicians who take advantage of righteous anger and steer it in dangerous directions. The problems in Canada are not latte-sipping liberal Trudeau supporters (though they ARE part of the problem in that they are allowing a slow motion takeover by corporate interests) the problem is a broader corporate agenda that has largely succeeded. And the anger resulting from this is real, and justified. But unfortunately we are seeing it manifested in knee jerk reactions like Ford and the Tea Party. These movements are often xenophobic, racist and incredibly misguided. This how we get a Hitler in an otherwise "civilized" society. 


Check this guy out : http://www.joebageant.com/

and also pick up a copy of "What's the Matter with Kansas?" It's a pretty good look at how the conservative movement has tied economics to religion, family values etc and convinced the "common man" to vote for policies that destroy his chances of upward social mobility.


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## Jarnhamar (17 Nov 2013)

[quote author=Kilo_302 ]
I for one want my politicians to be "elite." This means I want them to be educated, intelligent, intellectually open and honest and ambitious. 
[/quote]

That's setting the bar a little low to be elite IMO.



> This how we get a Hitler in an otherwise "civilized" society.



Annnnnnnnd Godwin.


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## Kilo_302 (17 Nov 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It isn't that _conservatives_ or Conservatives are attracted to Ford and Limaugh (who is also a son of privilege masquerading as _everyman_) it is that they, Ford, Limaugh, _et al_ are so consumed with hate for _progressive_ change that they have flocked to the least _progressive_ alternative. But: gay rights and abortion and all those other _fair_ and _equitable_ social policies are, now, part of the fabric of society and Ford and Limbagh and all the others have no place to go because neither Stephen Harper nor Tony Abbott, neither David Cameron nor the next Republican leader in the USA are going to undo those policies.
> 
> The only hope for 21st century _conservatism_ is to unceremoniosly dump the _social conservatives_ and, especially, the _religious right_, and return to proper, modern, conservatism, à la Eisenhower's GOP, and adhere to small town/small business values of social moderation, fairness, equity and fiscal responsibility.



You're spot on. Eisenhower famously warned about the military industrial complex for example. That sounds positively socialist by today's standards. I would also add that conservatives have a proud history of protecting our natural resources and the environment, one might say they _conserved_ it.


----------



## Journeyman (17 Nov 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> He represents the conservative elite and their overall project to cut spending, cut taxes and thereby achieve an upward transfer of wealth. This austerity nonsense .......


In this day and age, I can't believe anyone of _any_ political stripe, with even the most vague flickering of understanding political economy, would consider getting a grip on government spending and debt to be some conservative conspiracy.   :



			
				Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> This how we get a Hitler in an otherwise "civilized" society.


Perhaps you can tie Godwin's Law to the Greeks having to speak German as part of their debt reparations, since they also apprently thought that looking after their financial house was "nonsense."


If only we had more windmills.......    :brickwall:


----------



## Kilo_302 (17 Nov 2013)

Well actually I have a degree in economics and political science. It's not a conspiracy, as they aren't even hiding it. In a time when we have unprecedented wealth in Canada, why all of the sudden can we no longer afford programs we have had for decades? There HAS been an upward transfer of wealth, this is undeniable. The numbers do not lie.


----------



## George Wallace (17 Nov 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Well actually I have a degree in economics and political science. It's not a conspiracy, as they aren't even hiding it. In a time when we have unprecedented wealth in Canada, why all of the sudden can we no longer afford programs we have had for decades? There HAS been an upward transfer of wealth, this is undeniable. The numbers do not lie.



Well; if we look at the growing numbers of people now using Food Banks and the numbers of Welfare recipients draining off the Taxes of the hard working, but shrinking Middle Classes, I would find it hard to place all the blame at the top.  I would place an equal, perhaps more, blame on the Bottom Feeders.................



Sorry!  Was that my inside voice you just heard?


----------



## pbi (17 Nov 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ...The only hope for 21st century _conservatism_ is to unceremoniosly dump the _social conservatives_ and, especially, the _religious right_, and return to proper, modern, conservatism, à la Eisenhower's GOP, and adhere to small town/small business values of social moderation, fairness, equity and fiscal responsibility.



I believe this, wholeheartedly. But, it seems that lots of people (Ford Nation, for example) don't.  This is why the mainstream Republicans were fighting in the alley with the Tea Party-ites. The mainstreamers know what is the art of the politically possible. The screamers, trash-talkers and Fords only spew anger and stupidity, but that sells in some places.

I agree with Kilo that the corporate agenda can be seductive, insidious and almost irresistible for many politicians, but I also believe that business is the engine of everything, and that blind anti-business legislation and idiotic Euro-style red tape will further choke out what remains of truly Canadian business. There is a reasonable and prudent middle ground in all things.


----------



## pbi (17 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well; if we look at the growing numbers of people now using Food Banks and the numbers of Welfare recipients draining off the Taxes of the hard working, but shrinking Middle Classes, I would find it hard to place all the blame at the top.  I would place an equal, perhaps more, blame on the Bottom Feeders.................



If you've never had to use a food bank, good for you. It's a pretty dismal experience, but one that more and more otherwise decent Canadians are finding themselves reduced to. Thank God that I have not yet had to do this, but there are people quite close to me who have, whom I would not classify as "bottom feeders". As manufacturing plants are closed and jobs are off-shored, and towns lose their long-standing sources of livelihood, we will probably see more of this.


----------



## Edward Campbell (17 Nov 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Well actually I have a degree in economics and political science. It's not a conspiracy, as they aren't even hiding it. In a time when we have unprecedented wealth in Canada, why all of the sudden can we no longer afford programs we have had for decades? There HAS been an upward transfer of wealth, this is undeniable. The numbers do not lie.




Because they were unaffordable when they were launched in the 1970s. We could afford the modest social programmes M. St Laurent introduced in the 1950s and that Messers Diefenbaker and Pearson continued in the 1960s, but we cannot afford the _regime_ Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau introduced. Messers Mulroney, Chrétien and Harper were/are all too afraid of the electorate to institute necessary reforms ~ remember Solange Denis, the lady who ambushed Prime Minister Mulroney with her "goodbye Charlie Brown" comment and derailed his complete fiscal agenda? ~ so they will wait for it to collapse around us. In fairness, Mr. Harper, a Thatcher Conservative, is doing battle with our bloated, ineffective public sector.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Nov 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Well actually I have a degree in economics and political science.




Get your money back quick before they realize you failed. Actually, and sadly, that's the kind of bullshit "they" teach students nowadays, isn't it?

Borrowing money to pay for everyday living expenses is not "affording" something.



			
				Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> , why all of the sudden can we no longer afford programs we have had for decades?


----------



## ballz (17 Nov 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> Well actually I have a degree in economics and political science.



Unfortunately for your argument, most people on this site either have a Bachelor's degree or two and realize it does not mean one is "educated," or they have worked directly for people with Bachelor's degrees and suffered the consequences of assuming a Bachelor's degree means one is "educated."


----------



## Journeyman (17 Nov 2013)

ballz said:
			
		

> Unfortunately for your argument.....


And some folks don't care what degrees a person claims (this is the internet after all), but rather tracks that person's ability to produce a cogent argument, supported by credible sources....or their repeated failure at same.    


Or we can just go with what you said.   :nod:


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Nov 2013)

Just had to post this......


----------



## Nemo888 (18 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well; if we look at the growing numbers of people now using Food Banks and the numbers of Welfare recipients draining off the Taxes of the hard working, but shrinking Middle Classes, I would find it hard to place all the blame at the top.  I would place an equal, perhaps more, blame on the Bottom Feeders.................
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry!  Was that my inside voice you just heard?



Ridiculous. It's working families who are forced to use those food banks now. Welfare rates have been falling since the mid 90's. 3,070,900 recipients in 1995 to 1,679,800 in 2005 for all of Canada. Ontario had 1,344,600 recipients in 1995 and has dropped steadily every year to 455,247 this September. There are now less than half the people on welfare there were 15 years ago. Likewise the number of workers making minimum wage has skyrocketed.






http://www.canadiansocialresearch.net/ncw_factsheet09.pdf
http://www.mcss.gov.on.ca/documents/en/mcss/social/reports/OW_EN_2013_09.pdf


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## George Wallace (18 Nov 2013)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Ridiculous. It's working families who are forced to use those food banks now. Welfare rates have been falling since the mid 90's. 3,070,900 recipients in 1995 to 1,679,800 in 2005 for all of Canada. Ontario had 1,344,600 recipients in 1995 and has dropped steadily every year to 455,247 this September. There are now less than half the people on welfare there were 15 years ago. Likewise the number of workers making minimum wage has skyrocketed.



The 'Poverty Line' is artificially kept lower than it actually is.  This could explain why more working families are finding the need to use Food Banks.  Welfare rates dropping may be due to more policing of the system and cleaning up on cases of fraud or the government just cutting its obligations, as it has in Health Care.  I am not an Economist, so arguing economics and the artificial state that they are in is not where I would excel, so I will leave that to the SMEs.



NOW!  This morning on the news I heard the comment that Rob Ford has made a statement that he wants to run from Prime Minister at sometime in the future.  Is the man on crack?

Silly me.  Dumb question.


----------



## Edward Campbell (18 Nov 2013)

We don't have a "poverty line" in Canada. At the national level, Statistics Canada uses Low Income Cut Off*s* (note the plural) to, as they say, describe "an income threshold below which a family will likely devote a larger share of its income on the necessities of food, shelter and clothing than the average family." It is a statistical measure, and a very useful one at that ~ but it is neither intended for nor is it much used to set welfare rates. It is, however, grossly misused by dishonest* _poverty advocates_ to lobby for even more (and more wasteful) social spending.

But welfare is a provincial and, in many cases, a municipal responsibility and each jurisdiction has its own definitions. That's why we see "welfare shopping."

_____
* I say "dishonest" because most of these "advocates' know that they are misusing data. Those who don't know that they are misusing the data are just stupid poverty advocates.


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> NOW!  This morning on the news I heard the comment that Rob Ford has made a statement that he wants to run from Prime Minister at sometime in the future.  Is the man on crack?
> 
> Silly me.  Dumb question.


I'll see you your "PM comment" and raise you with this:


> *Rob Ford hailed as ‘The White Obama,’ Doug Ford tells CNN*


Riiiiiiight ....


----------



## dapaterson (18 Nov 2013)

Rob Ford was born in Kenya?


Hmm... has anyone ever seen Rob Ford's birth certificate?


----------



## pbi (18 Nov 2013)

> NOW!  This morning on the news I heard the comment that Rob Ford has made a statement that he wants to *run from Prime Minister* at sometime in the future.  Is the man on crack?



Good. I hope he runs as far from Prime Minister as he can. (without smashing into a camera or falling off a weigh scale).

But seriously, unless somebody forms a "_Ford Bund_", what party would nominate him? Can you imagine Harper allowing another PR train wreck, after the recent ones?


----------



## Journeyman (18 Nov 2013)

Maybe in his addled mind, he's seen reference to _some_ Federal Liberal politician having admitted to using illegal drugs, with no great backlash.....and figures they're kindred spirits and that's the way to go.

       :dunno:


----------



## dapaterson (18 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> But seriously, unless somebody forms a "_Ford Bund_", what party would nominate him? Can you imagine Harper allowing another PR train wreck, after the recent ones?



Well, Harper could always name him as a Senator from PEI.  He seems to have all the basic qualifications the PM applied last time - overweight, love of the camera, love of drink, living in Ontario....


----------



## George Wallace (18 Nov 2013)

;D

Freudian slip there.  I doubt Mayor Ford can run very far from anyone. 

Should have been: He made a statement that he would like to run for PM.    





(Should have more coffee.)


----------



## pbi (18 Nov 2013)

Well...I was wrong! I never expected to see this happen, but Tim Hudak today announced on TV that  if Toronto City Council asked for a provincial intervention, his party would support it.  I applaud his position, particularly if it costs him T.O. votes in the next election, but I am shocked. I was sure the provincial Tories would stand by their man.

On another "rats off the sinking ship" note, I  read an article in the Toronto Sun today that began with the words "...Toronto's crack smoking mayor...". The Sun was once a Ford bulldog, but that worm has turned as well.

I watched him bowl over the female councillor today (he was rushing to save his brother who was in an "altercation"-Council Chamber is a very dangerous place) and making silly hand gestures to mock the councillor who had lost his license at a RIDE stop. It's like a 12 year old in the play ground.

Does this never end?


----------



## Edward Campbell (18 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Well...I was wrong! I never expected to see this happen, but Tim Hudak today announced on TV that  if Toronto City Council asked for a provincial intervention, his party would support it.  I applaud his position, particularly if it costs him T.O. votes in the next election, but I am shocked. I was sure the provincial Tories would stand by their man.
> 
> On another "rats off the sinking ship" note, I  read an article in the Toronto Sun today that began with the words "...Toronto's crack smoking mayor...". The Sun was once a Ford bulldog, but that worm has turned as well.
> 
> ...




I suspect that Prime Minister Harper hopes it doesn't ~ it makes his _Senate scandal_ look positively tame.


----------



## DBA (18 Nov 2013)

When you start comparing others in the Canadian political scene to Nazis it is likely you who are intolerant, close mined and filled with hate. It amazes me how much vitriol people can spew at Ford and then decry the crassness of politics as if they weren't major contributors. The lack of self awareness is staggering. This is why I like John Baird - he spews the same as the rest in question period but doesn't pretend that isn't what he is doing. 

I try to always keep in mind I could be wrong about any fact or issue as after all none of us are perfect in our perception, reasoning or knowledge. This changes how I treat those who disagree with me - I challenge their perception, reasoning and knowledge of a fact or issue instead of going after them personally.


----------



## George Wallace (18 Nov 2013)

DBA said:
			
		

> When you start comparing others in the Canadian political scene to Nazis it is likely you who are intolerant, close mined and filled with hate. It amazes me how much vitriol people can spew at Ford and then decry the crassness of politics as if they weren't major contributors. The lack of self awareness is staggering. This is why I like John Baird - he spews the same as the rest in question period but doesn't pretend that isn't what he is doing.
> 
> I try to always keep in mind I could be wrong about any fact or issue as after all none of us are perfect in our perception, reasoning or knowledge. This changes how I treat those who disagree with me - I challenge their perception, reasoning and knowledge of a fact or issue instead of going after them personally.



???

Are you invoking the Goodwin Law?

Just for a term of reference, what are you referring to?  Whom are you referring to?  What post are you referring to?  Or is this just a shot out of the blue?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Well...I was wrong! I never expected to see this happen, but Tim Hudak today announced on TV that  if Toronto City Council asked for a provincial intervention, his party would support it.  I applaud his position, particularly if it costs him T.O. votes in the next election, but I am shocked. I was sure the provincial Tories would stand by their man.
> 
> On another "rats off the sinking ship" note, I  read an article in the Toronto Sun today that began with the words "...Toronto's crack smoking mayor...". The Sun was once a Ford bulldog, but that worm has turned as well.
> 
> ...



So let's see if I got this right.

You lament that the provincial Tories are not worth the stuff and that they'll back Ford.

Then they do the honourable thing and they become 'another' rats off a sinking ship?

Or did you actually mean "On another rats off a sinking ship note"

I'm sorry, but I'm getting mixed up as to where you're coming from.


----------



## Journeyman (18 Nov 2013)

Because he wore an Argos jersey this weekend, the sports channels all have Ford segments now.  


Relevance?  No, none that I could see; just mocking.


----------



## George Wallace (18 Nov 2013)

Got to love Rick Mercer's Rant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfdoLedAWWg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsfdoLedAWWg&app=desktop


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Got to love Rick Mercer's Rant:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfdoLedAWWg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsfdoLedAWWg&app=desktop



QFT


----------



## pbi (18 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So let's see if I got this right.
> 
> You lament that the provincial Tories are not worth the stuff and that they'll back Ford.
> 
> ...



Perhaps I'm misusing "rats".

It's just interesting to watch as more and more light bulbs come on in various peoples' heads that this person is utterly unfit. 

And yes, to be clear, I never expected the Tories, at either level, to pop smoke on a person who (rightly or wrongly) was being cultivated as their shining hope for Toronto. That why I said "I was wrong".

I've commented elsewhere that I see no reason to consider Tim Hudak a dishonourable or unfit person in the manner that Ford clearly is. What I did say (I think) is that I thought the Ontario Tories' political imperatives would keep them away from supporting a provincial intervention. They have surprised me: pleasantly I have to admit.


----------



## George Wallace (18 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Perhaps I'm misusing "rats".
> 
> It's just interesting to watch as more and more light bulbs come on in various peoples' heads that this person is utterly unfit.



As Rick Mercer points out, he may be unfit and a clown, but his politics are something to look at.


----------



## pbi (18 Nov 2013)

DBA said:
			
		

> When you start comparing others in the Canadian political scene to Nazis it is likely you who are intolerant, close mined and filled with hate. It amazes me how much vitriol people can spew at Ford and then decry the crassness of politics as if they weren't major contributors. The lack of self awareness is staggering. This is why I like John Baird - he spews the same as the rest in question period but doesn't pretend that isn't what he is doing.
> 
> I try to always keep in mind I could be wrong about any fact or issue as after all none of us are perfect in our perception, reasoning or knowledge. This changes how I treat those who disagree with me - I challenge their perception, reasoning and knowledge of a fact or issue instead of going after them personally.



Are you directing this to me?

If so,  that wasn't what I said, nor what I meant, at all. But, as RecceGuy points out, I can be a bit oblique at times.  For the record, I don't think JT is actually Mao or Hitler.

But Rex Murphy might disagree.


----------



## pbi (18 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Got to love Rick Mercer's Rant:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfdoLedAWWg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsfdoLedAWWg&app=desktop



Rick Mercer is right.  The angry people who doggedly support what they think Ford stands for, can't be discounted. And in fact they probably won't be.  As the Deputy Mayor and Councilor Minnan-Wong said today, the fiscal conservative agenda will go ahead without the Mayor if necessary, since most of council more or less support it. Ford is only one vote: the measures credited to him so far could only have become reality with the support of a majority of councillors.


----------



## a_majoor (18 Nov 2013)

As much as the PCPO would like to have a conservative standard bearer in TO, they also need to be pragmatic about who they want to be seen representing them. 

The comment by the Deputy Mayor is a bit disengenious, since the council wasn't exaclty standing in the door against Mayor Miller's spending plans. They know the voters are PO'd, and even if/when Rob Ford is gone the voters are likely to be looking in that direction in the future. Best get ahead of the crowd now before it becomes a "running of the bulls".

As a BTW, this is something close to one of the things I am always warning about in other threads: either we do a controlled drawdown of the "Progressive project" or we will be faced with an uncontrolled collapse and the appearance of "The Man on the White Horse".


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Nov 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> As much as the PCPO would like to have a conservative standard bearer in TO, they also need to be pragmatic about who they want to be seen representing them.


Tactfully put, and true.  

Meanwhile, let the distancing begin!


> Ontario’s Progressive Conservatives will consider any request from Toronto council to stabilize the situation with Mayor Rob Ford, Tory Leader Tim Hudak says.
> 
> “Obviously, the situation we’re in today needs clarifying and Rob needs to get help,” Hudak said Monday.
> 
> “Ultimately, if the city says that it legitimately cannot function, then we do have an obligation at the provincial level — within the powers that we have — to ensure some clarity and stability. Right now, it looks like the city is taking its own action.” ....


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## pbi (19 Nov 2013)

I watched the CBC interview with the Ford brothers last night. Very interesting, and something that I think the CBC should have done earlier than this, although Doug says that this was the first "sit-down interview" they have granted to any media.

I came away with two conflicting impressions.

First, Rob appeared at times to be genuinely sorry for his behaviour, and to realize (as he said at least once) that "I've let a lot of people down". He admitted to misusing booze and taking marijuana (all old news now), and to using "crack" but not "cocaine".The person that both brothers seemed to be the most upset about "letting down" was Jim Flaherty. Interestingly, Doug stated that of all the members of both the Federal and Provincial Tories, only Jim Flaherty had ever expressed any personal support for Rob Ford (apparently because of a long standing family friendship). They didn't seem particularly surprised (or even upset) that both levels of Tories have distanced themselves, which makes me wonder (contrary to my earlier comments..) just how close the relationships really were. Finally, both Rob and Doug talked about how Rob is going to undertake various steps to deal with his problems including weight and booze.

All good.

On the other hand, I saw once again the attitudes that have made me so sceptical from the very beginning about the moral and ethical judgement that Rob (and Doug) bring to this vitally important task of leading our biggest city. Both of their dialogues were littered with comments to the general effect of:

"Everybody else does it";

"Lots of those other councillors do marijuana/drink and drive";

"The pot calling the kettle black";

"I just had a few bad Friday and Saturday nights";

"These are just personal issues"; and

"This is a coup d'etat against democracy" (Referring to the council votes to restrict his powers under the Toronto Act)

Nowhere (despite Peter Mansbridge's prompting) did I ever hear the slightest recognition, from either of them, of the fact that as Mayor he is held to a higher standard and has a duty to set an example for behaviour in public office. Everything appears to be the fault of others (media, political opponents, etc) or can be justified by comparing it to the behaviour of others. They both seem to see the media as their enemy (it "besieges" Rob), but also as a friend ("we're getting our message out"). The criminal issues around Lisi and the police investigation were side-stepped, but that was (I think) a legitimate and wise tactic.

All behaviours considered, there still seems, IMHO, to be a fundamental lack of a moral and ethical compass at the level required of a modern metropolitan Mayor. What I do see is roughly similar to what I would expect of a young teenager.

By his own claim, he is the "best Mayor Toronto ever had", has "helped more people than anybody ever"; and "has saved the taxpayer more money than anybody else." He was bit disingenuous here, since he took credit for privatizing garbage collection which, AFAIK, started before he was elected, and for building subways, which I don't think has happened yet.

So, I guess I will watch to see how the Mayor reacts if a low-level City employee is caught engaging in any of these "personal" activities. Will the Mayor stay silent, so the "pot" doesn't call the "kettle" black?, or will he rage for vengeance like he did about the employee caught sleeping at work?

For a guy who announced himself to be so hard core for law and order and against gang-bangers (remember his "hug a thug" comments?) and druggies, how will he react now? If his drug use and questionable associations are "just personal issues" that we should all excuse him for, will the same excuse apply to some bunch of young black kids scooped up in another drug raid in north Etobicoke? Do they need understanding and forgiveness too, as he claims for himself?

It's not at all impossible that he could reform himself and come back to a Mayoral victory. And, if he were truly to demonstrate a real reformation of character, not some superficial nonsense about losing weight and "getting big arms", then he might deserve that victory.

But I don't see it.


----------



## GR66 (19 Nov 2013)

I'm not a Rob Ford fan.  I've always thought he was a buffoon and never in a million years would have voted for him (despite sympathies with his "Ford Nation" fiscal responsibility platform).  Ever since this fiasco started I've felt that he should do the proper thing and step down (preferably to get himself the help he clearly needs or at the very least just to stop being such a negative distraction for the city).

That being said, I can't help but feel uncomfortable with the actions of the Toronto city council.  Rob Ford has not been charged with any criminal offence.  He has shown extremely poor personal judgement and as I already stated I think he SHOULD step down.  He has NOT to my knowledge been accused of any fiscal wrongdoing in the performance of his duties as mayor.  Is it proper then for city council to restrict the powers of this elected official because they don't like his personal behaviour and the way it reflects on the city?  Isn't that a very slippery slope to walk on?  Where does one draw the line if that becomes the benchmark for restricting the powers of an individual elected by the voting public?

Toronto mayor Mel Lastman made many stupid comments that made himself and the city the butt of jokes in the world media.  Should he have had his powers restricted as a result?  What if a mayor was found to have done something "immoral" like have an affair?  Is smoking a joint enough to trigger the response....hash...or is crack where the line is drawn? 

As distasteful as this whole continuing soap opera is, would it not be better to simply try to get about the business of the city as much as possible, don't give him the stage to continue to die upon and let the voters make their wishes known in the next election.  Should he end up being criminally charged with some offence then action could/should perhaps be taken to remove him from his position.


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## Remius (19 Nov 2013)

@GRR6:

          Valid concerns.  People (media, leftist types etc) were gunning for Ford even before all of this stuff came to light.  He was derided for his weight, his way of speaking, his rough edges etc etc.  They even tried to remove him as mayor over a smaller but ethically questionable act on his part. 

          What council is doing now however is well within their powers.  Now is right though?  Being Mayor is more than just fiscal responsibilities, to which it would seem, he has aquitted himself well enough.  He represents the face of the city.  It was mentioned in one of he news pieces that he is also responsible for the 6th largest economic entity in the country.  It becomes a matter of trust.  Would you trust someone who has used crack cocaine, is known to associate with criminal elements (serious ones at that) and is part of a criminal investigation to which he has been advised to keep silent about to manage that?  This is what council is facing.  It isn't just a small group of councillors leading this.  The whole council (minus the Ford brothers) is doing this.  Mayor Ford has lost their trust.  While he is just one vote on council he does exercise executive powers that they feel he is no longer fit to execute.  Keep in mind that even his supporters are voting in favour of limiting his power.

          While the Mayor was elected, yes, so were the councillors that are trying to limit his shenanigans by limiting his power.  They, I believe, are doing this in what they think is in the best interest of the city and the wards they represent.  

         This fiasco has reached international proportions beyond the 15mins of infamy and it is starting to hurt the city's brand.  Ford has isolated himself by his own actions and admissions but more so by his refusal to do what everyone thinks is the right thing to do and step aside.  He does have his brother and loyal core of supporters however, but that core is eroding.  

         But, he is well within his right to remain in office, and I think he will, but come election time, if anyone with name recognition or similar fiscal policies as him runs (John Tory, Olivia Chow), I don't think his Ford nation will be enough to carry him through.


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## mariomike (19 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> So, I guess I will watch to see how the Mayor reacts if a low-level City employee is caught engaging in any of these "personal" activities.



The policy for City of Toronto Paramedics is, "Certain jobs require a high level of skill and a high level of trust from both employers and the public. For employees working in those types of positions, it’s possible that off-duty behaviour can call into question that trust, if it demonstrates poor judgment. And if an employer no longer has confidence that an employee has the judgment to perform a job of high skill and responsibility, the result could be dismissal."



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> And, if he were truly to demonstrate a real reformation of character, not some superficial nonsense about losing weight and "getting big arms", then he might deserve that victory.



I hope he takes care of his health.

By co-incidence, the last time a City of Toronto mayor died in office ( collapsed at the George Bell Arena during a charity hockey game ) was 50 years ago tonight. Judging by his photos, he looked fit and healthy. But, privately he relied on nitroglycerine pills.

Interestingly, "After 10 months in office, Donald Summerville’s intensive work schedule worried his city council colleagues. Though only 48 years old, Summerville had suffered a heart attack two years earlier. When it was suggested that the city hire an official civic greeter to lessen his workload, Summerville, who often put in 16-hour days, insisted that he should make a special effort to be available to community groups who requested a mayoral presence at their functions."

His death led to the creation of the Department of Emergency Services. 



			
				GR66 said:
			
		

> Toronto mayor Mel Lastman made many stupid comments that made himself and the city the butt of jokes in the world media.



He was our first Mega-mess Mega-city mayor:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115637/mel-lastman-torontos-offensive-adulterous-mayor-rob-ford

Before Mayors Lastman, Miller and Ford, it was the Metro Chairman who ran things.


----------



## pbi (19 Nov 2013)

GR66 said:
			
		

> That being said, I can't help but feel uncomfortable with the actions of the Toronto city council.  Rob Ford has not been charged with any criminal offence.  He has shown extremely poor personal judgement and as I already stated I think he SHOULD step down.  He has NOT to my knowledge been accused of any fiscal wrongdoing in the performance of his duties as mayor.  Is it proper then for city council to restrict the powers of this elected official because they don't like his personal behaviour and the way it reflects on the city?  Isn't that a very slippery slope to walk on?  Where does one draw the line if that becomes the benchmark for restricting the powers of an individual elected by the voting public?



Just like in the military, I think that where it comes to elected officials we have to distinguish between what is a "disciplinary" matter (ie: you charge someone and deal with it by CM or summary trial), and "administrative" or "performance" issues that are typically dealt with by non-judicial methods (like RW, C&P, removal from command, restriction of duties, etc). Both can result in severe sanctions. 

This, in my opinion, is where our provincial system in Ontario lacks the capacity for recall that exists in BC. and several US states. As I understand the system that generally prevails in the relevant US states, criminal offences by elected officials are dealt with by impeachment processes (or just by judicial procedures). 

Loss of confidence or bad behaviour, as far as I understand, are dealt with by voter recall. While it varies from state to state, in essence it requires that a fixed percentage of the electorate, or of the legislature, etc, etc. vote to remove an elected official from office before term expiry. This is, in my view, a very democratic process, as it allows either the majority of elected representatives, or the majority of voters (generally the latter), to get rid of someone they no longer feel can discharge their office properly. Because it would require a majority vote, it could not really  be "coup d'etat" as Rob Ford so dramatically distorts things.



			
				GR66 said:
			
		

> Toronto mayor Mel Lastman made many stupid comments that made himself and the city the butt of jokes in the world media.  Should he have had his powers restricted as a result?  What if a mayor was found to have done something "immoral" like have an affair?  Is smoking a joint enough to trigger the response....hash...or is crack where the line is drawn?
> 
> As distasteful as this whole continuing soap opera is, would it not be better to simply try to get about the business of the city as much as possible, don't give him the stage to continue to die upon and let the voters make their wishes known in the next election.  Should he end up being criminally charged with some offence then action could/should perhaps be taken to remove him from his position.



Two points:

-I'm fairly familiar with the antics of Mayor Lastman: I was the G3 of LFCA (now 4 Div) for the Great Snowstorm (among other activities involving T.O.). As bizarre as he could be,(and he could be!) I can never recall him ever provoking the extreme reaction in Council that Ford has ultimately generated after a long, long series of bad behaviours. And I personally never, ever, felt the moral doubts I feel where the current Mayor is concerned (although perhaps Lastman might not be seated at the right hand of God when the time comes....). It's also worth noting that well before becoming Mayor of T.O., Lastman was a proven quantity, both as a very successful small businessman (Bad Boy's Appliances ), and as the Mayor of North York who presided over the latter stages of its transition from a semi-rural township to a very successful borough and then (IIRC) a city in its own right, before it was sucked into the TorontoBorg.  Ford, to the best of my knowledge, has had no such track record, either with the family company or as an alderman in Etobicoke;

-I'm fairly sure that Council wants to get on with business, especially if they would like to get elected again (assuming they are not swept away in the FordNation Jihad that Rob is threatening...).  As Crantor points out 





> The whole council (minus the Ford brothers) is doing this.  Mayor Ford has lost their trust.  While he is just one vote on council he does exercise executive powers that they feel he is no longer fit to execute.  Keep in mind that even his supporters are voting in favour of limiting his power.


. Council took a long time to get to where they are now, and given the internal divisions (as well as the blood and thunder threats of the Fords) it probably was not easy. The Council acted within their powers as they understood them (advised, I'm quite sure, by the City's Legal Dept). Since it was by an overwhelming majority vote cast by democratically elected representatives, I'm not sure how it can be characterized as "undemocratic". But, I suppose that if the Fords raise a legal action the Ontario courts will ultimately decide.


----------



## Edward Campbell (19 Nov 2013)

The _Globe and Mail_ reports that "Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly plans on pursuing a similar agenda of fiscal conservatism as Mayor Rob Ford’s, but with a more co-operative style." So that satisfies (should satisfy, anyway) Conservatives in Queens Park and Ottawa.

I don't know what Toronto's rules are like, but I would hope that Mayor Ford could go on sick leave for a while (preferably quite a long while) to get some physical, mental health and substance abuse treatments.


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## mariomike (19 Nov 2013)

Globe and Mail
Nov. 13 2013

"What could happen to his job if Toronto Mayor Rob Ford were a ‘regular city employee’?":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-business-stories/what-could-happen-to-his-job-if-rob-ford-were-a-regular-city-employee/article15413421/


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## Edward Campbell (19 Nov 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I'm posting this article, an opinion piece which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, here, rather than in the Rob Ford thread, because it illustrates _*media bias*_, albeit of a sort hat some members here do not find objectionable:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/television/why-the-ford-nation-tv-show-is-a-stroke-of-genius/article15456681/#dashboard/follows/
> 
> Now, I agree with John Doyle that we live in a (horrid) "reality TV world" and, on that basis, giving the Ford brothers their own TV show is, indeed, a stroke of marketing genius. But it is, also, a direct attack on the mainstream, _Laurentiam consensus_ media. This is *media bias* writ large; it is part of Sun media's continuing attack on, especially, the CBC. Canadians should not be persuaded that this is about giving Ford a voice or even about exploiting a situation for profit: this a one _wing_ of media bias versus another.




Well, according to an article in the _Globe and Mail_, that didn't last very long. The _Ford Nation_ TV show on _Sun_ is cancelled. The problem seems to be that the Fords are good, maybe even very good in a live, direct "chat" format but _Sun_ is not willing to let them go "live," and the prospects for success in a taped format are poor.


Edit to add:

I also suspect that sponsors were scarce, most likely non-existent ... in fact I _suspect_ that some sponsors, and _Sun_ has few enough as it is, threatened to abandon the network entirely is _Ford Nation_ continued. There's an interesting _tweet_ from _Canadian Tire_ that says: "For clarity to our customers – we won’t be advertising on Ford Nation and are asking our manufacturers to not use our logos on the show."


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Nov 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, let the distancing begin!
> 
> 
> > Ontario’s Progressive Conservatives will consider any request from Toronto council to stabilize the situation with Mayor Rob Ford, Tory Leader Tim Hudak says.
> ...



The Conservative distancing (this time, from the feds) continues apace ....


> One of Prime Minister Stephen Harper’s top cabinet ministers is calling on Toronto Mayor Rob Ford to resign after bringing “dishonour” to Canada’s largest city — as some differing opinions emerge on the issue from the Conservative government.
> 
> A day after the Prime Minister’s Office called allegations against Ford “troubling” — but avoided saying whether he should resign — Employment and Social Development Minister Jason Kenney on Tuesday took a much sharper tone on the matter.
> 
> ...


----------



## George Wallace (19 Nov 2013)

Am I the only one who gets the impression that both Rob and Doug Ford were the schoolyard bullies and now are getting their uppance?


----------



## GAP (19 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who gets the impression that both Rob and Doug Ford were the schoolyard bullies and now are getting their uppance?



Well........like most bullies, they supply their own ammo..............twits, the bunch of them, on both sides... :


----------



## pbi (19 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who gets the impression that both Rob and Doug Ford were the schoolyard bullies and now are getting their uppance?


  

This is exactly how I've always seen the pair of them. If they aren't busy denying something, they are threatening, slagging or making ridiculous overblown claims. It''s like  "_Municipal Politics by Jerry Springer_" . Or Mississippi in the 1920's. All that's missing are the hound dogs, the jug and the rocking chairs on the porch.

There was an interesting piece on Global  TV tonight in which they replayed some of Ford's recent bombastic claims (mostly on US TV) about his mayoral record, then provided some statistics that seem to make a liar out of him. Again. Still.

 It will be quite something to see how (if...)  City Council functions now. Maybe they can get back to business.


----------



## Brad Sallows (19 Nov 2013)

>that this person is utterly unfit

Ford has been mayor for almost three years.  Reflecting on how Toronto's city business has gone in that time, at what point did Ford become "utterly unfit"?  Did it coincide with a concerted campaign by his political foes in politics and media agencies to throw sh1t until something stuck?  And does the pot-stirring deserve consideration as a militating factor in Ford's performance?  (Friction wears at everything.)

Notwithstanding my view that people with severe shortcomings of character don't belong in charge of important organizations, so far Ford's escapades only rate "1" on the following scale:
1. Human weakness (eg. adultery, substance abuse).
2. Misusing office for personal gain (eg. expense account abuse, bribery).
3. Misusing office to secure gains for others (eg. cronyism) and to secure and maintain political power (eg. Adscam).
4. Subverting corrective and investigative processes in order to secure and maintain political power (eg. writing fraudulent documents).

I can point quite squarely to several prominent parties and politicians guilty of level (3) and (4) misdeeds and not only are their supporters quite willing to overlook those faults, but they probably don't understand why a (3) or (4) is much, much worse than a (1) or (2).


----------



## pbi (19 Nov 2013)

> eflecting on how Toronto's city business has gone in that time, at what point did Ford become "utterly unfit"



It became evident gradually, but my firm belief is that the spots were always on the dog. People just didn't see them.



> Did it coincide with a concerted campaign by his political foes in politics and media agencies to throw sh1t until something stuck?



I don't think this is a realistic assessment. There was just way too much, over too long a period, from too diverse a  range of sources, for this to be plausible. And, don't forget, most of Council was actually supporting his agenda for his first couple of years in office. If  that wasn't the case, he never would have gotten anything past a vote. Some stalwarts like the Deputy Mayor and Minnan-Wong eventually turned against him, not to mention the  Provincial and Federal Tories. (Although, as I observed earlier, those two relationships may not have been all they were cracked up to be...). Even the Toronto Sun, which was definitely in his corner at the start, cut him dead not long after he phoned up one of their reporters and started screaming obscenities at him.

As far as dealing with stress: that goes with the job. I've seen lots of very unpopular politicians get roasted by the media, but I've never seen one act like this.



> I can point quite squarely to several prominent parties and politicians guilty of level (3) and (4) misdeeds and not only are their supporters quite willing to overlook those faults, but they probably don't understand why a (3) or (4) is much, much worse than a (1) or (2).



Excellent. Let's root them out too: Right, Left, liberal, NDP, whatever.  If  they behave like these two, I don't care what political altar they worship at.  I'm probably hopelessly old school, but I expect more. Falling back on the old refrain that "_everybody else does it_" is a surefire way to ensure we never do anything about the character and behaviour of people in public office.


----------



## Remius (20 Nov 2013)

Interesting contrast here from our friends south of the border:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/20/politics/congressman-cocaine-possession/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Although a bit different there are many similarities between both stories and how each man has taken a  different approach...


----------



## a_majoor (20 Nov 2013)

Here is the real problem; it isn't the political class or Rob Ford (although they have cultivated the opposite attitudes in voters and exploited it to their advantage); it is there are so few of _these_ people left to work and vote in our communities:



> Here each individual is interested not only in his own affairs but in the affairs of the state as well:
> even those who are mostly occupied with their own businesses are extremely well-informed on general politics
> —that is a peculiarity of ours;
> we do not say that a man who takes no interest in politics is a man who minds his own business;
> ...


----------



## pbi (20 Nov 2013)

:goodpost:

Well said. I believe that too.


----------



## Brad Sallows (20 Nov 2013)

>Let's root them out too

Agreed.  But only if they do, in fact, get rooted out; unilateral political disarmament is foolish.  The BC NDP should have outcast Adrian Dix entirely, but instead they made him leader of their party.  Apparently, there are different standards for acceptable behaviour on the political left and right in Canada.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Nov 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Let's root them out too
> 
> Agreed.  But only if they do, in fact, get rooted out; unilateral political disarmament is foolish.  The BC NDP should have outcast Adrian Dix entirely, but instead they made him leader of their party.  Apparently, there are different standards for acceptable behaviour on the political left and right in Canada.



[sarcasm] Seriously? The way people are going on, I thought Rob Ford was the exclusive contravener for law breaking politicians in Canada. Heaven forbid that there are blackguards in the other parties  : [/sarcasm]

Agreed Brad,

It's not a matter that if everyone does it, it's ok. Rather any politician found breaking the criminal code should be thrown out.

Good for the goose, good for the gander. Ford gets tossed for crack, Trudeau should get tossed for marijuana. It's not about the substance, it's about breaking the law as it is written and stands at the time. They don't get to choose what laws they break.

Any politician breaking the law is not fit to serve. Drugs? Gone. DUI? Gone. Assault? Gone. Theft? Bribery? Tax evasion? Gone. Ad nauseum. 

And no, they can't run again after completing their time\ fine and a 12 step program.

There has to be consequences to the actions and we shouldn't be debating who gets a buy.


----------



## The_Falcon (21 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> [sarcasm] Seriously? The way people are going on, I thought Rob Ford was the exclusive contravener for law breaking politicians in Canada. Heaven forbid that there are blackguards in the other parties  : [/sarcasm]
> 
> Agreed Brad,
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure I said the exact same thing a few pages ago.  If you are convicted, or are dumb enough to admit it in public, that you broke criminal law then no politics for you.


----------



## pbi (21 Nov 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Let's root them out too
> 
> Agreed.  But only if they do, in fact, get rooted out; unilateral political disarmament is foolish.  The BC NDP should have outcast Adrian Dix entirely, but instead they made him leader of their party.  Apparently, there are different standards for acceptable behaviour on the political left and right in Canada.



No doubt in many peoples' minds this is so, but we are hypocrites if we indulge in it. (Although I dare say you find more of it the farther out to the political flanks you get)

I don't care: I want better. 

Political misbehaviour, malfeasance and just plain stupidity are bad. The higher up the scale of government you go, the worse the consequences of these become. We need better tools to deal with these rotters. This is why I like the voter recall system that exists in some US states (and in BC, but not quite in the same way, I think...). 

Interestingly, as far as I can tell, US voter recall is quite popular on the conservative end of the scale and less so on the liberal end. For example, IIRC it got Arnie into office in California as Gubernator.


----------



## pbi (21 Nov 2013)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure I said the exact same thing a few pages ago.  If you are convicted, or are dumb enough to admit it in public, that you broke criminal law then no politics for you.



With you on that.


----------



## Nemo888 (21 Nov 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Let's root them out too
> 
> Agreed.  But only if they do, in fact, get rooted out; unilateral political disarmament is foolish.  The BC NDP should have outcast Adrian Dix entirely, but instead they made him leader of their party.  Apparently, there are different standards for acceptable behaviour on the political left and right in Canada.



I thought it was always, "the right looks for converts and the left looks for traitors."  You can't really call the Liberals left. Opportunism blows with the wind. Which really applies to all the parties now. The ideology is window dressing. The real customers are the donors, not the voters.


----------



## The_Falcon (21 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> No doubt in many peoples' minds this is so, but we are hypocrites if we indulge in it. (Although I dare say you find more of it the farther out to the political flanks you get)
> 
> I don't care: I want better.
> 
> ...



It is, and he actually earned the ire of many in the Republican establishment, because he's not really a hardcore conservative, he's like a red Tory.  His book Total Recall, is an interesting look at the inner working of US politics (and yes I am very aware that alot of it is pretty self serving, a humble guy he is not, but being humble doesn't get you from where he came from to where he is now.).


----------



## pbi (21 Nov 2013)

This is what the State of California says about Recall:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_2

The relevant part states:



> CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
> ARTICLE 2  VOTING, INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM, AND RECALL
> 
> SEC. 13.  Recall is the power of the electors to remove an elective
> ...



Note that the reason for recall apparently can't be questioned. While I agree in principle with recall, I'm surprised Americans would be willing to go with such low percentage requirements. I don't think that would be acceptable here.

Here is a link to the BC "Recall and Initiative Act". It appears to focus only on MLAs.

http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/LOC/freeside/--%20R%20--/Recall%20and%20Initiative%20Act%20RSBC%201996%20c.%20398/00_Act/96398_03.xml#part3_division1

The BC Act requires that a recall petition have the signatures of 40% of registered voters in the MLA's riding. If this result is certified by the Chief Electoral Officer, the MLA must vacate the seat and then a by-election is normally called. 

IMHO 40% is still much too low: I would suggest at least 51% and probably more like 60%, in order to avoid frivolous attempts, or factional struggles.

The US states seem to vary: in some you can recall almost any elected official including municipal. In most cases (maybe all...) the State's highest court retains some check and balance power. In a number of cases recalls have been overturned or defeated.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Nov 2013)

Funny how the media never mentions Montreal in their comparisons.

_In a little more than half a year, Montreal mayor Gérald Tremblay resigned after allegations about illegal fundraising, and now his replacement is facing replacement.

Only last fall, Mr. Applebaum was portraying himself as a reforming white knight promising to tackle the corruption that has cost taxpayers millions and sapped the trust of a cynical electorate. “I solemnly vow that I will erase this stain on our city,” he said as he became interim mayor of Canada’s second-largest city, taking over from Mr. Tremblay.

Today, the crusader finds himself under the weight of criminal charges. Mr. Applebaum is charged with 14 criminal counts, including conspiracy, fraud and breach of trust_

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/montreal-mayor-michael-applebaum-arrested/article12595439/


----------



## pbi (21 Nov 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Funny how the media never mentions Montreal in their comparisons.



Not quite the same situation. The first guy resigned (unlike Ford) and Applebaum has actually been charged (again, unlike Ford).

I'm not sure its fair to say the "media never mentions Montreal..." Where did this info come from if not from the media? I have been following the entire Quebec corruption mess pretty steadily on the CBC, same as for Joe Fontana in London.


----------



## mariomike (21 Nov 2013)

Politics aside, as a matter of public safety, I believe Council made a reasonable decision in delegating the "Mayor’s powers in emergencies" to Deputy Mayor Kelly.

( Under the City of Toronto Act, the Mayor still has the authority to declare a State of Emergency. )


----------



## pbi (21 Nov 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> ( Under the City of Toronto Act, the Mayor still has the authority to declare a State of Emergency. )



Ha! If he hasn't done *that* yet, he never will!


----------



## dapaterson (21 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Ha! If he hasn't done *that* yet, he never will!



Well, I don't think it's snowing...


----------



## observor 69 (21 Nov 2013)

Wait for it.....
"Rob Ford the Movie"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUY6lDja-DE&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> Not quite the same situation. The first guy resigned (unlike Ford) and Applebaum has actually been charged (again, unlike Ford).
> 
> I'm not sure its fair to say the "media never mentions Montreal..." Where did this info come from if not from the media? I have been following the entire Quebec corruption mess pretty steadily on the CBC, same as for Joe Fontana in London.



However I never see the media compare the two, out here we hear nothing except the Rob Ford stuff and seems the local media has totally forgotten about the crap that goes on in Montreal, which in my mind is far more insidious than what Toronto is dealing with.


----------



## Remius (22 Nov 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> However I never see the media compare the two, out here we hear nothing except the Rob Ford stuff and seems the local media has totally forgotten about the crap that goes on in Montreal, which in my mind is far more insidious than what Toronto is dealing with.



The media in Quebec has been all over this. 

It may be that Quebec issues tend to not really interest anyone outside that province.  When that all broke there was significant coverage but it all sort of came out.  Nothing to follow up on.

Toronto is more internationally known, the Mayor already bombastic, the existance or not of a video (prompting even more curiosity) and the fact that Mayor ford keeps bringing attention to himself.  Most local Quebec media seem to cover Ford as much as Ontario local media cover the Quebec mayoral scandals.


----------



## George Wallace (22 Nov 2013)

So, for Quebecers a "Bombastic Druggie Ontario Mayor" is worse than a "Mafia Linked Quebec Mayor"?    :-\


----------



## Remius (22 Nov 2013)

No, it's probably more akin to "We don't give a rats a** about Toronto's mayor as he isn't our problem. "

The anglo media are the ones who seem to think Ford is worse than than the Quebec mayor(s) scandals.

RDI has been covering the Quebec mayoral scandals extensively, (the Comission Charbonneau is the lead story today).

When I said the Quebec media has been all over this, I  meant the Quebec mayoral scandals, not Rob Ford.


----------



## Edward Campbell (22 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So, for Quebecers a "Bombastic Druggie Ontario Mayor" is worse than a "Mafia Linked Quebec Mayor"?    :-\




No, I don't think so.

I think the media, including the Québec media, in both languages, reported on the corruption scandals (there's more than one) extensively and with a combination of shock, horror and sorrow.

The _Ford Show_® is different ... it shocks and horrifies, to be sure, but it also titillates and scandalizes and so on and there is, admittedly, a certain amount of "it couldn't happen to a nicer guy"aspect in some media outlets, notably the _Toronto Star_. But, in fairness to the _Star_, Mayor Ford and his allies did everything up to and including calling the _Star's_ reporters liars so, I suppose, some gloating is justified.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Nov 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> No, it's probably more akin to "We don't give a rats a** about Toronto's mayor much outside Quebec as he it isn't our problem. "


FTFY


----------



## Remius (22 Nov 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> FTFY



Exactly.  But I will say this, in this regard (Ford), they likely have the right idea


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Nov 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So, for Quebecers a "Bombastic Druggie Ontario Mayor" is worse than a "Mafia Linked Quebec Mayor"?    :-\



Just can't give it a rest, can ya'?

How about more like corrupt politicians are a dime a dozen but Mr. Ford is rather "unique", shall we say.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (22 Nov 2013)

All this started with Colin's post below:



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> Funny how the media never mentions Montreal in their comparisons.



I swear these forums have their own version of Godwin's Law: When you don't know what else to say, drag Quebec in here with some disparaging comment.

Am I the only one that seems to be picking up on this pattern ???


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Nov 2013)

No,..hence my post above yours.


----------



## George Wallace (22 Nov 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Just can't give it a rest, can ya'?
> 
> How about more like corrupt politicians are a dime a dozen but Mr. Ford is rather "unique", shall we say.



Give up What?  

We have several corrupt mayors of Montreal, perhaps dozens throughout the 50's through 2013, and one "unique" mayor of Toronto.  So, wherein lies your problem?

As for corrupt politicians; can anyone name one 'honest' politician?  


In the end, Ford and his brother will disappear from our memories as have such names as Drapeau, and all those more recent Montreal mayors who have faded from the news.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Nov 2013)

:nevermind:  :facepalm:


----------



## larry Strong (22 Nov 2013)

42% of Torontonians still approve of Ford according to this latest poll by Forum Research, shared with the usual caveats:


http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ford-nation-still-stands-by-their-man-new-poll-1.1555428


I will laugh my freaking ass off if he gets voted back in.......




Larry


----------



## Jed (22 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> [sarcasm] Seriously? The way people are going on, I thought Rob Ford was the exclusive contravener for law breaking politicians in Canada. Heaven forbid that there are blackguards in the other parties  : [/sarcasm]
> 
> Agreed Brad,
> 
> ...



Ah, I wish life was this straight forward and plain black and white.

Laws evolve, what was once a good law may become a law that does not work in current society or does not make common sense anymore.

The result is that many good people wind up breaking some law. I would venture to say we all, to some extent, break laws to some degree.

What upsets most folks is when cultural norms or moral lines get crossed rather than what legal law gets broken.

So just exactly what is a mortal sin and what is a venal sin? Someone or some governing body or some judge has to make that call.  I personally no longer have the trust in our elected politicians or our judicial systems that the correct call will be made.

For a USA example; one can witness the serial deceit and contempt of moral governmental administration perpetrated on the American people all undertaken in a lawful manner according to that country's laws.

I apologise for my poor grasp of legalese to better explain my point. (I know, apologising is a sign of weakness. lol)


----------



## Fishbone Jones (22 Nov 2013)

Jed said:
			
		

> Ah, I wish life was this straight forward and plain black and white.
> 
> Laws evolve, what was once a good law may become a law that does not work in current society or does not make common sense anymore.
> 
> ...



However, until it's changed, it's still the law and MPs swear an oath to abide by the law, as most politicians do. They don't quibble about whether they agree or not, that is for after they are elected and in a position to argue for change.

Just because 'some' in society don't believe something should be legislated, doesn't mean it's to be ignored.

The law is the law until it's changed. You don't have a choice, especially as a politician.

Justin Trudeau is an admitted criminal as is Rob Ford.


----------



## Danjanou (22 Nov 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> 42% of Torontonians still approve of Ford according to this latest poll by Forum Research, shared with the usual caveats:
> 
> 
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/ford-nation-still-stands-by-their-man-new-poll-1.1555428
> ...



And that was done before his speech at Casa Loma last night in front of the business community. He came across as articulate humble and straight to the point, same as on Nov 11th, which would suggest when his handlers have a grip on him now.Afterwards in the media scrum he was also calm and pointed out that he proposed a 1.75% tax increase next year to fund the subway line and this week the council without him has proposed raising that to 2.5% to start. When that gets factored in he should hit 45% and get back in easily. As Mercer put it in his rant , we'd vote in a gerbil here if it meant our taxes stayed reasonable.  ;D


----------



## Retired AF Guy (22 Nov 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> As Mercer put it in his rant , we'd vote in a gerbil here if it meant our taxes stayed reasonable.  ;D



Or the chance that the next mayor might be Oliva Chow.


----------



## the 48th regulator (23 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> However, until it's changed, it's still the law and MPs swear an oath to abide by the law, as most politicians do. They don't quibble about whether they agree or not, that is for after they are elected and in a position to argue for change.
> 
> Just because 'some' in society don't believe something should be legislated, doesn't mean it's to be ignored.
> 
> ...




I completely agree with you Recce, however remember possession is illegal, not use, therefore neither of them broke the law.  God bless our justice system....


----------



## PuckChaser (23 Nov 2013)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I completely agree with you Recce, however remember possession is illegal, not use, therefore neither of them broke the law.  God bless our justice system....



There's where the legal argument gets murky: To use you have to possess, but you can't prove whats being used until you can test the substance. Its the same deal with kids not be allowed to purchase cigarettes, but yet its perfectly legal for them to possess and smoke them, heck schools even have smoking areas.


----------



## The_Falcon (23 Nov 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> There's where the legal argument gets murky: To use you have to possess, but you can't prove whats being used until you can test the substance. Its the same deal with kids not be allowed to purchase cigarettes, but yet its perfectly legal for them to possess and smoke them, heck schools even have smoking areas.



Considering both ADMITTED to purchasing said narcotics...., is that enough for the courts, no.  But while they both remain LEGALLY innocent, they both are FACTUALLY (by their own admission) guilty. 

As for cig's, nothing that you mentioned involves criminal law.


----------



## observor 69 (23 Nov 2013)

From todays TO Star:

"The same Forum research poll that shows Ford’s approval rating at 42 per cent  shows only one in three are prepared to vote for him again. 
Almost twice as many, more than 6 in 10, say they never will. This suggests certain defeat for Ford at the polls — except for the elephant in the room:

It’s about the money, stupid. 

Ford’s unassailable brand is he’ll take care of your tax dollars."

http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2013/11/23/moderate_majority_has_a_formidable_task_ahead_james.html


----------



## mariomike (23 Nov 2013)

Recent events may make some Toronto voters nostalgic for the Metro era. 

The Metro Chairman was the senior political figure in the municipality, and was elected by the members of council. So, s/he had to be someone Council respected and could work with.


----------



## garb811 (23 Nov 2013)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I completely agree with you Recce, however remember possession is illegal, not use, therefore neither of them broke the law.  God bless our justice system....


So the drugs just magically appeared in their system?  By extension, use of a drug is normally a result of possession.  ie.  Holding the joint to take a hit means you possess the marijuana contained therein for the period of time you are holding it so odds are both were in possession for at least a limited amount of time.


----------



## Goose15 (23 Nov 2013)

Hahahaha  :rofl:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8XZLvJiqd4


----------



## mariomike (23 Nov 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Or the chance that the next mayor might be Oliva Chow.



Possibly.  

But, of the seven Chairmen and Mayors since I hired on with the city, all but one were from the suburbs.

( Two from Etobicoke, two from North York, one from Scarborough, and one from York. )

That's not a prediction, just an observation.


----------



## pbi (24 Nov 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Possibly.
> 
> But, of the seven Chairmen and Mayors since I hired on with the city, all but one were from the suburbs.
> 
> ...



But, probably a good prediction too.

 IIRC Toronto has held pretty steady at somewhere under 3,000,000 for the last decade or so.  (It can't get much bigger because it has no room to grow: the adjoining cities that make up the 905 are generally financially well off and politically quite strong) 

The old "City" of Toronto (where dwell the evil bike-riding latte-sipping gym-goers and bean sprout munchers, FordHell be upon them...)  doesn't constitute the single majority of voters: it is outnumbered by the other six former cities/boroughs that were merged by the Harris government into a single city.  It is a bit of a stretch to call them "suburban", but they are certainly more inclined that way than the Old City is.

I think you will be right again. But, hopefully, the next round will bring T.O. a "Mayor of All The People", for a change.


----------



## ModlrMike (24 Nov 2013)

pbi said:
			
		

> But, probably a good prediction too.
> 
> IIRC Toronto has held pretty steady at somewhere under 3,000,000 for the last decade or so.  (It can't get much bigger because it has no room to grow: the adjoining cities that make up the 905 are generally financially well off and politically quite strong)
> 
> ...



I don't know. I still think Mr Ford has the potential to pull off a Marion Barry moment.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Nov 2013)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I don't know. I still think Mr Ford has the potential to pull off a Marion Barry moment.



So do I.

If he gets into the running, the other candidates will have to spend their time denouncing his bad behavior, instead of concentrating on their platforms. Especially if he starts riding big poll numbers.

Ford? He can concentrate, after an initial apology and commitment to be better, in driving his fiscal responsibility record, which is pretty good and one the others would have trouble arguing against.


----------



## the 48th regulator (24 Nov 2013)

garb811 said:
			
		

> So the drugs just magically appeared in their system?  By extension, use of a drug is normally a result of possession.  ie.  Holding the joint to take a hit means you possess the marijuana contained therein for the period of time you are holding it so odds are both were in possession for at least a limited amount of time.



How many people have you ever heard of failing a drug test, and being charged with Possession?

dileas

tess


----------



## brihard (24 Nov 2013)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> How many people have you ever heard of failing a drug test, and being charged with Possession?
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Not a chance that would satisfy the crown's requirements to move forward with a charge of possession under the CDSA.

Obviously Ford possessed drugs in order to use them. But that does not translate into what would be required in court to achieve a conviction. A defense lawyer could poke a million holes and introduce reasonable doubt on any charge based on information specific enough to go to trial.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Nov 2013)

Legality arguments aside.

Ford and Trudeau are both self admitted drug users.

Never mind the nuances.


----------



## the 48th regulator (24 Nov 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Legality arguments aside.
> 
> Ford and Trudeau are both self admitted drug users.
> 
> Never mind the nuances.



My bad,

I was just trying to help out.  I shall return to radio silence.

dileas

tess


----------



## brihard (24 Nov 2013)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> My bad,
> 
> I was just trying to help out.  I shall return to radio silence.
> 
> ...



Don't worry about it, Tess. I don't think there's anything wrong in a bit of theorizing about whether the mayor of Toronto could face criminal prosecution. That's a big enough deal in its own right. Criminal conviction goes a bit beyond mere 'nuance'.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (24 Nov 2013)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Don't worry about it, Tess. I don't think there's anything wrong in a bit of theorizing about whether the mayor of Toronto could face criminal prosecution. That's a big enough deal in its own right. Criminal conviction goes a bit beyond mere 'nuance'.



The 'nuance' was located in the minutiae of the discussion points.

It didn't rest with what Ford has done, or what may happen in the future.


----------



## Loachman (26 Nov 2013)

I'll not post the article here due to mild adult content, but:

http://www.tmz.com/2013/11/26/toronto-mayor-tom-ford-sex-video-vivid-brandy-aniston/?


----------



## mariomike (26 Nov 2013)

Rob Ford on O'Reilly Factor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_ovkbQeqsc


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Nov 2013)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I'll not post the article here due to mild adult content, but:
> 
> http://www.tmz.com/2013/11/26/toronto-mayor-tom-ford-sex-video-vivid-brandy-aniston/?



Not sure if I want to see him naked......

No dog in this fight, but it is a lesson in how not to bring down a political figure.


----------



## observor 69 (27 Nov 2013)

22 Minutes: "Like a Rolling Stone" - Song Parody

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCstkTIuAIA


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Jan 2014)

Jan 2 the race began....it's going to be a long slough and interesting time from now until November.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (6 Jan 2014)

Jumping through the channels last night, I saw CBC was doing one of their "don't vote for this guy" hatchet jobs on Ford.

Whoever is running against him won't need to spend money, to fight him, or his record. The Red Star, CBC and the rest of their ilk will pull out all the stops to sewer him, every opportunity they can.

.........and if they can't find enough opportunities, they'll invent them.

They have the bit in their teeth and they don't want him back.


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Jan 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Jumping through the channels last night, I saw CBC was doing one of their "don't vote for this guy" hatchet jobs on Ford.
> 
> Whoever is running against him won't need to spend money, to fight him, or his record. The Red Star, CBC and the rest of their ilk will pull out all the stops to sewer him, every opportunity they can.
> 
> ...



Good means my candidate (Michael Tramov) can focus on attacking all the others...


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 Jan 2014)

There's a rumour floating around out there ~ it surfaced on TVO's _The Agenda_ and Paul Wells of _Maclean's_ said, almost immediately, _no way, José_ ~ that Prime Minister Harper will offer Olivia Chow a prestigious appointment that will allow her to advance her own social agenda: say *Lieutenant Governor of Ontario.*

Here's what _The Agenda's_ Steve Pakin had to say on his TVO blog:

     "Here's the "something else." David C. Onley's tenure as Ontario Lieutenant-Governor is coming to an end later this month. Lieutenant-Governors are appointed by the prime minister. I'm told Chow has been offered the job by Prime Minister Harper.

     In truth, it's a very clever offer. Chow is a terrific "people person," and would do an excellent job as LG. She would also make history as the first lieutenant-governor of Asian descent (although not the first female LG. That was Pauline McGibbon, appointed in 1974).

     If Chow accepted the appointment, that would dramatically simplify Ford's efforts to win re-election, since Tory, Stintz, Minnan-Wong, and Soknacki are all essentially from the same part of the political spectrum as Ford. In fact, one of John Tory's supporters says
     a Tory mayoralty would be akin to "Ford's fiscal conservatism without the freak show."

     Without a strong centre-left candidate in the race, all those other would-be candidates will split the centre-right vote with Ford, who no doubt thinks he can count on his loyal supporters to win that fight."

Source: http://theagenda.tvo.org/blog/agenda-blogs/heres-how-stephen-harper-can-help-rob-ford


----------



## a_majoor (6 Jan 2014)

I'll laugh until I puke if Rob Ford wins another majority. It is about time for the voters to kick the so called "elites" in the teeth. The operative thoght process of these so called elites can be summed up in four words:

"We Know; You Don't"

Looking at the Progressive track record,  they "Don't" either, so having Ford as Mayor is a wash at worst.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Jan 2014)

Can we just give Mayor Moonbeam instead?

http://www.news1130.com/2011/11/08/cartoon-video-pokes-fun-at-gregor-robertson/


----------



## dapaterson (6 Jan 2014)

Elites?  Like the millionaire children of career politicians?


"Rob Ford: He only smokes crack when he's really, really drunk" is hardly a rallying cry.


----------



## Remius (6 Jan 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There's a rumour floating around out there ~ it surfaced on TVO's _The Agenda_ and Paul Wells of _Maclean's_ said, almost immediately, _no way, José_ ~ that Prime Minister Harper will offer Olivia Chow a prestigious appointment that will allow her to advance her own social agenda: say *Lieutenant Governor of Ontario.*
> 
> Here's what _The Agenda's_ Steve Pakin had to say on his TVO blog:
> 
> ...



It would seem that it was just a rumour...

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/Olivia+Chow+dismisses+Ontario+Lieutenant+Governor+rumour/9354538/story.html


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Jan 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> It would seem that it was just a rumour...
> 
> http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/Olivia+Chow+dismisses+Ontario+Lieutenant+Governor+rumour/9354538/story.html


She's also saying via Twitter reports of an LG offer are "completely false", although let's not forget _"Yes, Minister"_ for some quotes that might be applicable ....


> .... "The first rule of politics: never believe anything until it's been officially denied."
> 
> ( .... )
> 
> "If asked if he wants to be Prime Minister, the generally acceptable answer for a politician is that while he does not seek the office, he has pledged himself to the service of his country, and that should his colleagues persuade him that that is the best way he can serve, he might reluctantly have to accept the responsibility, whatever his personal wishes might be."


----------



## vonGarvin (6 Jan 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Elites?  Like the millionaire children of career politicians?
> 
> 
> "Rob Ford: He only smokes crack when he's really, really drunk" is hardly a rallying cry.


True enough; however, his track record *as mayor* isn't that bad (relatively speaking. After all, he *is* a politician). And he appeals to the real working class, not the union Mafioso types.  
And he accepts no salary, which in itself is appealing to voters.

Edit to add:
His campaign shirts would sell out world wide:


----------



## s2184 (6 Jan 2014)

Being a resident in the City of Toronto, will I vote for Rob Ford again?  :-\

The answer depends on how good the other candidates are.


----------



## The_Falcon (6 Jan 2014)

s2184 said:
			
		

> Being a resident in the City of Toronto, will I vote for Rob Ford again?  :-\
> 
> The answer depends on how good the other candidates are.



There are 21 candidates registered for mayor so far, in this age of google/social media, the power really is in hands of the voter to research "the other candidates".


----------



## mariomike (6 Jan 2014)

s2184 said:
			
		

> Being a resident in the City of Toronto, will I vote for Rob Ford again?  :-\
> 
> The answer depends on how good the other candidates are.



I still vote in Toronto elections. 

But, as I am no longer a City employee, I'm less interested now in who gets in.


----------



## a_majoor (6 Jan 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Elites?  Like the millionaire children of career politicians?
> 
> 
> "Rob Ford: He only smokes crack when he's really, really drunk" is hardly a rallying cry.



Whatever his personal problems are, he certainly does not have that smug and condescending approach to voters and taxpayers that most of the political class has these days. I can imagine Rob Ford's response to the idea that lowering taxes or leaving money in the hands of taxpayers will result in us spending it on "beer and popcorn":

"Beer and popcorn? Hey, save some for me!"


----------



## Brad Sallows (6 Jan 2014)

In what way are Rob Ford's personal weaknesses worse than those of that other politician so widely despised by the political left, Ted Kennedy?


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jan 2014)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> In what way are Rob Ford's personal weaknesses worse than those of that other politician so widely despised by the political left, Ted Kennedy?



We don't know how well Rob Ford's car floats...


----------



## vonGarvin (7 Jan 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> We don't know how well Rob Ford's car floats...



:rofl:


----------



## The_Falcon (8 Jan 2014)

Well that didn't take long  :

Ford apparently already broke election rules by listing his city phone number and email on his campaign site.  And Soknacki's slogan "Stop the Crazy Train"..... 
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/toronto2014election/2014/01/07/campaign_2014_ford_briefly_breaks_rules_soknacki_goes_crazy.html


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## pbi (8 Jan 2014)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> In what way are Rob Ford's personal weaknesses worse than those of that other politician so widely despised by the political left, Ted Kennedy?



Why do we assume that you have to be on "the political left" to want politicians to behave themselves? ???


----------



## a_majoor (8 Jan 2014)

If you are on the political left, the media will ignore that sort of conduct (takes illegal drugs in while serving in office? shrug.)

If you are on the political right, however.....


----------



## Remius (9 Jan 2014)

I think it also has to do with political hypocrisy.  If you are on the right (socially) and are hard on crime, zero tolerance type and get caught doing what you decry then yeah, the media tends to go harder. It doesn't help if you blatantly lie either.  You just encourage the story to get bigger.  If you are pro pot legalisation it isn't as much of a story if not only you do it but actually admit to it.

If Ford had been upfront from the beginning, i doubt he'd be in as much of a firestorm.


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 Jan 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I think it also has to do with political hypocrisy.  If you are on the right (socially) and are hard on crime, zero tolerance type and get caught doing what you decry then yeah, the media tends to go harder. It doesn't help if you blatantly lie either.  You just encourage the story to get bigger.  If you are pro pot legalisation it isn't as much of a story if not only you do it but actually admit to it.
> 
> If Ford had been upfront from the beginning, i doubt he'd be in as much of a firestorm.



And I think that's fair. M Trudeau gets a pass on his occasional, recreational drug use because he's not terribly hypocritical. Mayor Ford, on the other hand, is like the American _televangelists_: too much mouthy judgement, too little honesty.


----------



## observor 69 (9 Jan 2014)

"Rob and Doug Ford" Press Conference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3lfUSpKecs


----------



## mariomike (10 Jan 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> There are 21 candidates registered for mayor so far, in this age of google/social media, the power really is in hands of the voter to research "the other candidates".



I wonder how many more will register over the next ten months?

I see the Deputy Mayor had the large framed portrait of Metro Chairman Gardiner taken out of storage. It is now on display in the area of the "fishbowl" formerly occupied by Rob Ford's "Cut the waist" scale and fish tank. 

As I only served under two mayors, I'm more familiar with the Metro era. The four Chairmen I served under, as was Fred Gardiner before them, were appointed rather than elected by the public.


----------



## Journeyman (22 Jan 2014)

I see Krusty the Clown is back, featured in yet _another_ publicly drunken video....

Go Toronto!    :facepalm:


----------



## The_Falcon (22 Jan 2014)

Meh, I am voting for Michael Tramov.


----------



## Loachman (22 Jan 2014)

From Taki's Magazine a couple of weeks ago:

http://takimag.com/article/the_man_who_almost_became_torontos_crazy_mayor_kathy_shaidle/print#ixzz2rAI3BtWH

The Man Who Almost Became Toronto’s Crazy Mayor

by Kathy Shaidle 

January 07, 2014

George Smitherman is supposed to be the mayor of Toronto.

During the 2010 election, the former deputy premier was the liberal elite's standard-bearer. Sure, his name was attached to a few sordid, multi-million-dollar political disasters, but that's true of pretty much every career politician of any stripe.

He was - in the tradition of the city's slew of progressive mayors - smoothly well spoken and unfailingly presentable, if occasionally cranky. He was the cool kind of bald. 

And most importantly, he was gay.

In 2007, Smitherman and his "husband," Christopher Peloso, were "married" in a "traditional aboriginal ceremony." They promptly adopted two children. 

How could he possibly lose?

The polls closed at 8PM. Literally a few minutes later, Rob Ford - fat, clumsy, inarticulate, suburban, stubborn; married to a woman in a ceremony that included neither an eagle feather nor smudge; a father the old-fashioned way, however unpalatable that notion might be - was declared the winner. In fact, the result was what passes these days for a landslide: Ford received just over 51% of the vote to Smitherman's 31%. 

The elites were dumbfounded and furious.

Led by the Toronto Star, there began an all-out "get Ford" campaign - legal machinations, anonymous rumors, lawsuits, weird (and in one case, misinterpreted) cell-phone videos, borderline stalking, and satirical sketches (sometimes combined) - that eventually erupted into one of the biggest international stories of 2013, the details of which are all too familiar.

Meanwhile, Smitherman faded into the background, taking up the type of semi-imaginary jobs - "broadcaster," "consultant" - befitting his rank and making the usual noises about spending more time with his awfully 21st-century family.

Then a police dog found his "husband" curled up near some railway tracks.

The day before, on September 10 of last year, Smitherman had reported Peloso missing. Wall-to-wall local media coverage led some to mutter that the disappearance of a lowlier adult civilian would never have garnered such attention or witnessed such a large and speedy outlay of police resources. 

Were drugs involved? Smitherman and Peloso had met on Toronto's gay scene, and the former fairly boasted about his one-time addiction to "party drugs," contrasting himself favorably to that tacky crack smoker Ford. 

Whatever prompted Peloso's brief peregrinations, they were more or less forgotten as the Ford saga chugged along.

Then Peloso wandered off again. This time, the outcome was tragic.

On December 30, Peloso was found dead, a suicide. In his official statement, Smitherman said he would "find comfort somehow in knowing that [Peloso] has found peace from the depression that has wreaked havoc on his mind."

Now, I'm as tired of playing "Imagine If" as anybody else is. You know: the game where we play "Imagine if…Rush Limbaugh had joked about Mitt Romney's black grandson." Or "Imagine if Dennis Miller had called a former Democratic governor a 'f**king jackoff c**t-face jazzy wondergirl' with 'a family of chinese [sic] poor people living in her c**t hole.'" Visit the Drudge Report at random and you'll find a fresh, fitting example.

But this time? The questions wrote themselves. A few folks were brave enough to ask them.

Broadcaster Ezra Levant sent out a series of Tweets stating what we normal, ordinary people used to be able to call "the obvious," such as:

If this were Rob Ford's family, we'd have a Media Party drug-by-drug, minute-by-minute tick-tock of the deadly dysfunction.

His colleague Michael Coren weighed in:

George a former drug addict, Peloso with mental health issues; yet they're allowed to adopt. Odd!

The liberal elite reacted swiftly, predictably, and without a smidgen of irony or self-awareness. Levant and Coren duly doubled down. 

Coren noted that gay Liberal Party speechwriter turned Maclean's apparent new ombud of online compassion and civility, Adam Goldenberg, had recently responded to Coren' column on the worldwide massacre of Christians with mean-spirited sarcasm. 

"Let's be honest," Levant Tweeted. "This unhappy fate is what the Media Party lusted for (and worked for) for Rob Ford instead." He reminded readers that 24 hours after his "husband" had been "found in a ditch" the first time, Smitherman had been out "partying" with a Liberal MP-elect.

This time? "Smitherman invited the [Toronto] Star into his home as he prepared for his husband's funeral."

A few days earlier, City Hall saw a 20% increase in the number of citizens at the New Year's Day levée, a traditional meet-and-greet with the mayor. Clips I spotted on the local news showed that evil divisive racist out-of-touch crackhead Rob Ford grinning and shaking hands with delighted-looking black and white and Asian Torontonians. How many were gay, I don’t know.
The previous day, Ford was the first to file his papers for this year's municipal election. If Smitherman runs again, he'll likely split the "candidate with a tragically dead spouse" vote with Jack Layton's widow and fellow lefty, Olivia Chow.

I can't be the only Torontonian who's postponing their own suicide so I can see how this race turns out.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (22 Jan 2014)

Well, that was refreshing, for a change. ;D


----------



## GAP (22 Jan 2014)

Yes it surely was....


----------



## vonGarvin (22 Jan 2014)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I can't be the only Torontonian who's postponing their own suicide so I can see how this race turns out.



:rofl:


----------



## mariomike (23 Jan 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Meh, I am voting for Michael Tramov.



I was robo-polled tonight by Forum Research regarding Mayor Ford's job performance, and if I would be voting for him.

They also asked about several other ( potential ) candidates including Stintz, Chow, Soknacki and Tory. 

I've always supported those who support safe staffing levels and decent pay for Toronto's Emergency Services.

Prior to 1998, the city ( which was the same size then as it is now ) had six elected mayors all serving concurrently. In addition, there was one non-elected "super-mayor" ( the Metro Chairman ). 

He was the one who really ran City Hall. 

Regarding labour relations, the city went 30 years without a strike. Then Mayor Lastman had the "jobs for life" strike in 2002, and Miller had the "sick bank" strike in 2009. 

Mayor Ford avoided a strike, but he did not have to fight either of those battles with the union.


----------



## a_majoor (23 Jan 2014)

For a bit of fun, I'd suggest that anyone who is polled reply they are all for Mayor Ford, his program and will vote for him again, regardless of what your personal views are.

This will throw the various progressives into a panic as the polls come out, but also provide openingings for the various lower profile candidates as people start paying attention to the campaign and say "WTF?". Shaking up the political establishment in Toronto should not equate to coronating Olivia Chow.


----------



## pbi (30 Jan 2014)

The latest revelations about His Worship, while in the line of  possibly questionable "jailhouse confession", seem to conform to some elements of what was previously known. His Worship's sister was reported some time ago to have been involved with drugs, and IIRC was shot in the face by a dealer-I believe it was hte person now making these allegations.

I very, very much doubt that Chow will get elected (short, perhaps, of a mass mobilization by the Chinese community) but whoever ends up getting the mayoral chain of office, will (I hope) demonstrate more judgement in who they choose to associate with. His Worship seems to have absolutely no discretion whatsoever in that department.

He also might want to develop a better definition of "friends": I don't think a "friend" is somebody who videos you being a bizarre idiot and then either uploads it or sells it. He seems to have a lot of people like this around him during these various "private life" moments.


----------



## mariomike (30 Jan 2014)

Norm Gardner became a candidate for mayor today:
http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_history/councillors/1998-2000/gardner1.htm


----------



## pbi (31 Jan 2014)

It says he was in the Militia. What regiment was he?

I still think that Ford has an excellent chance of getting back in, assuming no more disasters, for the following reasons;

-municipal politics in Canada traditionally have low voter turnouts, which means that a candidate with a dedicated core of supporters who do actually vote has a good chance;

-Ford Nation folks seem to be capable of magical thinking, so they remain stalwart at about (IIRC) 40% of the electorate: easily enough to take a split field;

-there will almost certainly be several mayoral candidates, thereby guaranteeing a split vote as noted above;

-he is the Mayor, diminished or not. Incumbents typically have an advantage over outsiders; 

-he is busily shaping conditions so that he appears as a victim: a helpless but true hearted defender of the Little Guy, shackled by the wicked money-wasters on Council. He would probably like people to forget that in Ontario a mayor is only one vote on Council and really needs councillors to cooperate with him to get things done. Watch for lots of talk about "coups" and "undemocratic actions" by Council. How a majority vote by elected officials is undemocratic escapes me; and

-he appeals to a large number of people who wish they could do all that cool stuff and keep their jobs too.


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> It says he was in the Militia. What regiment was he?



Queen's Own Rifles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Queen's_Own_Rifles_of_Canada#Notable_members


----------



## Remius (31 Jan 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> -municipal politics in Canada traditionally have low voter turnouts, which means that a candidate with a dedicated core of supporters who do actually vote has a good chance;
> -



I'm willing to bet the next Toronto election will likely have the highest turn out it has had in a long time...just a hunch.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> I still think that Ford has an excellent chance of getting back in, assuming no more disasters ....


All I know about the guy is what I read, and the bit in yellow is still appears quite the gamble at this point


----------



## pbi (31 Jan 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I'm willing to bet the next Toronto election will likely have the highest turn out it has had in a long time...just a hunch.



On second thought, you could be right. In any case, it promises to be interesting.



			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> All I know about the guy is what I read, and the bit in yellow is still appears quite the gamble at this point



We'll see. Brother Doug seems to be trying valiantly and loyally to keep a grip on His Worship, but he keeps slipping out of his leash and peeing all over things.


----------



## mariomike (31 Jan 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> How a majority vote by elected officials is undemocratic escapes me;



Democratic or not, prior to Mayors Lastman, Miller and Ford, the leader and the most senior political figure was elected by the members of Council.

( The geographic boundary remains the same 240 square miles it has been for the last 60 years. )


----------



## dapaterson (2 May 2014)

And in the "What has been imagined cannot be unimagined" department, there are rumours that the Toronto Star is chasing down a Rob Ford sex tape.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 May 2014)

Rob Ford has likely improved the revenue of the TS and they will feel the pinch when he is gone. Funny the left always preaches compassion for addicts, yet given the opportunity they pulled out the knives instead.


----------



## jpjohnsn (2 May 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Funny the left always preaches compassion for addicts, yet given the opportunity they pulled out the knives instead.


How about not talking about "the left" as if it is all one thing.  Painting up your straw men with a single broad brush is never helpful to any discussion.  

Even as a  fiscally conservative, I wouldn't care if he had figured out how to run the city at no cost to the taxpayer, fiscal responsibility is only one part of what I look for in a civic leader.    Not being the punch-line in American, late-night, talk show monologues being fairly high up there.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 May 2014)

Well my grandfather help start the CCF and my dad was an MLA for the NDP, is that enough straw for you? I grew up in very left of centre household and have since wandered the political spectrum. As for the left there is a significant base which can be collectively refereed to as the "left" (just as there is a "right")  It encompasses everything up to but not including "Blue Liberals"


----------



## jpjohnsn (2 May 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Well my grandfather help start the CCF and my dad was an MLA for the NDP, is that enough straw for you? I grew up in very left of centre household and have since wandered the political spectrum.  As for the left there is a significant base which can be collectively refereed to as the "left" (just as there is a "right")  It encompasses everything up to but not including "Blue Liberals"


What your father and grandfather did does not make you an authority on "the left" and more than Ron Reagan Jr is any kind of authority on "the right" because of his dad so we can set that aside for the moment.

And by cherry-picking your data set and excluding the "Blue Liberals", you have proven my point.  

When you said "the left always preaches compassion for addicts", you are engaging in a hasty generalization which is a fallacy.  Some on the left do, absolutely.  Some on the right do too.  And some on the left and right really don't.


----------



## Remius (2 May 2014)

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> What your father and grandfather did does not make you an authority on "the left" and more than Ron Reagan Jr is any kind of authority on "the right" because of his dad so we can set that aside for the moment.
> 
> And by cherry-picking your data set and excluding the "Blue Liberals", you have proven my point.
> 
> When you said "the left always preaches compassion for addicts", you are engaging in a hasty generalization which is a fallacy.  Some on the left do, absolutely.  Some on the right do too.  And some on the left and right really don't.



What difference does it make.  I got what he meant even if it was a generalisation.


----------



## Nemo888 (2 May 2014)

One of those former mayors had a wife who was a kleptomaniac. It took a lot of work to keep that out of the papers. He was the one who never tipped in restaurants.

Ford was such a mess and so terrible at corruption he was like a whiff of honesty despite himself. Ford was such a train wreck I miss him already.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 May 2014)

jpjohnsn said:
			
		

> What your father and grandfather did does not make you an authority on "the left" and more than Ron Reagan Jr is any kind of authority on "the right" because of his dad so we can set that aside for the moment.
> 
> And by cherry-picking your data set and excluding the "Blue Liberals", you have proven my point.
> 
> When you said "the left always preaches compassion for addicts", you are engaging in a hasty generalization which is a fallacy.  Some on the left do, absolutely.  Some on the right do too.  And some on the left and right really don't.



My point is I grew up surrounded by the left and if you think there is not a "cultural group" that can be identified as such then you are allowing your own opinions blind you. As for the "Blue Liberals " for lack of a better term, they don't self-identify with the left or the right, creating a 3rd group. Then of course there was the Rhino party who just laughed at everyone.


----------



## pbi (2 May 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Rob Ford has likely improved the revenue of the TS and they will feel the pinch when he is gone. Funny the left always preaches compassion for addicts, yet given the opportunity they pulled out the knives instead.



As far as I'm concerned, his addictions are the least of it. (Sir John A was a notorious boozer).

For me, since the day I became aware of him, it has been an issue of character. Apparently he is a 19-year old in a man's body, and consistently demonstrates that same level of judgement.  His endless antics and huge range of bad behaviours would have gotten a lesser city employee sacked ages ago.  His shallow masquerade as an "average guy" is rubbish.

We deserve better in our leaders, but apparently we have no idea how to get it.  Replacing Ford with some spineless left-wing twit isn't the answer either (although most of the councillors running against Ford are not left wing at all: if I'm not mistaken, some were originally his allies)

I will say though, that I truly do admire Brother Doug's steadfast bulldog loyalty to this train wreck of a sibling. Misplaced, but honourable.


----------



## pbi (2 May 2014)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> One of those former mayors had a wife who was a kleptomaniac. It took a lot of work to keep that out of the papers. He was the one who never tipped in restaurants.
> 
> Ford was such a mess and so terrible at corruption he was like a whiff of honesty despite himself. Ford was such a train wreck I miss him already.



The difference was, in my opinion, that Mad Mel for all his weirdness was much more a true "Mayor of All The People" than Ford is or probably ever could be. Mel was a very experienced and crafty municipal politician who earned his spurs as mayor of the City of North York before he became Mayor of T.O., but he never practiced the sort of divisive politics Ford revels in. RoFo gets his traction by setting one part of the city against another.

And while Mel was probably not a saint, I don't ever recall the endless string of bad behaviours or the extremely questionable associations with the criminal world that we have seen with Ford.


----------



## George Wallace (2 May 2014)

Nemo....How can you miss the Schoolyard Bully?


----------



## Nemo888 (3 May 2014)

He is a living political satire ridiculing everything that is wrong with politics. If he were a character in a movie he would be too over the top to be believable.


----------



## Brad Sallows (3 May 2014)

>I don't ever recall the endless string of bad behaviours or the extremely questionable associations with the criminal world that we have seen with Ford.

That's because most of those with character flaws and shady associations manage to conceal it.  I suppose everyone prefers to be hoodwinked by jackass/criminal politicians indefinitely rather than to have it right out in the open where it can be measured and voted for or against.


----------



## mariomike (3 May 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> His endless antics and huge range of bad behaviours would have gotten a lesser city employee sacked ages ago.



They would tolerate almost anything, unless you became a public disgrace.


----------



## DBA (3 May 2014)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >I don't ever recall the endless string of bad behaviours or the extremely questionable associations with the criminal world that we have seen with Ford.
> 
> That's because most of those with character flaws and shady associations manage to conceal it.  I suppose everyone prefers to be hoodwinked by jackass/criminal politicians indefinitely rather than to have it right out in the open where it can be measured and voted for or against.



The Ford story also seems to resonate more with some than for example the computer leasing scandal. It feels more super market checkout lane fodder than real news which might reveal more about those who can't get enough of it than anything else. The Star did report on the leasing scandal at the time and did a lot of work to reveal it as well, which would be expected of a local paper. Sometimes when I get annoyed with all the Ford coverage I have to remind myself of that.


----------



## pbi (4 May 2014)

DBA said:
			
		

> The Ford story also seems to resonate more with some than for example the computer leasing scandal. It feels more super market checkout lane fodder than real news which might reveal more about those who can't get enough of it than anything else. The Star did report on the leasing scandal at the time and did a lot of work to reveal it as well, which would be expected of a local paper. Sometimes when I get annoyed with all the Ford coverage I have to remind myself of that.



If you read the book "Crazy Town" you'll see that the Star did not start out as Ford's enemy. It is also worth noting that Ford's behaviour eventually even turned the Sun (that bastion of populism) against him. That must have taken some doing.

In the end, newspapers and media outlets are there to question, grill and embarass politicians, just as they have been since the first news sheet was cranked off a Gutenberg press. We are foolish and historically blind if we think that media has not been partisan throughout history. Right wing outlets attack the lefty politicians, and vice versa. The Left and the Right are always screaming about the media being controlled by their enemies. Both distrust the "MSM", which suggests to me that the "MSM" is more or less doing its job.

Just as it should be, IMHO. 

Ford and his brother decided early on that the way to deal with something or somebody that doesn't agree with them is to demonize it and then hammer on those talking points no matter what. Are they different from other politicians in that way? No, just more obvious and inept. But using the argument "they do it too" is what a five-year old says. The media, the Chief of Police, City Council:  attack what you fear in the hopes of neutralizing it. 

The problem for me is that this isn't the kind of leadership that a large, complex city needs. Toronto desperately needs a Mayor of All The People, before its real and impending problems, problems that can't be solved by paroting bumper-sticker ideas but require thoughtful analysis, drag the city down.

I just don't know where this person will come from.


----------



## The_Falcon (4 May 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> The problem for me is that this isn't the kind of leadership that a large, complex city needs. Toronto desperately needs a Mayor of All The People, before its real and impending problems, problems that can't be solved by paroting bumper-sticker ideas but require thoughtful analysis, drag the city down.
> 
> I just don't know where this person will come from.



Toronto needs to coalesce into a full city, before a true Mayor for all, can emerge.  Whether it's MSM, politicians, blogs (like blogTO, GridTo), etc, when people refer to "Toronto" They generally mean downtown and sometimes Yonge Street (within Avenue on the West and Mt. Pleasant on the East) up to somewhere roughly between Eglinton and Lawerence.  The indie/free "news papers" you see all over the city (Grid and Now) cater to the downtown/trendy area urban leftist hipsters.  Toronto Life, same geographic area but more upscale in social status.  The North York, York, Etobicoke, Scarborough (East York is the exception), rarely get any love or attention.

A good first step would be if the lifestyle media outlets (like Toronto Life, and the popular blogs) started broadening their scope outside of the highrise jungle South of Bloor.  Of course no one can force them to do this, they would have to take the initiative on that one.  But it would be good first step that, to broach that divide between the "downtown elite" and the "suburban neaderthals''.


----------



## Edward Campbell (4 May 2014)

Look at this _infographic_:







Toronto, however it is defined, is an enormous and enormously complex place. Scarborough or North York, alone, have, almost, the population of New Brunswick; combined they are bigger, in population than Saskatchewan. But there is a growing _inequality_. Look at the _flow_ of income: as the central area remains as a *constant* the suburbs have become less and less rich, relative to it (less yellow (middle income) and more orange (*relatively* low income).

Yet, oddly enough, it appears, to me, that the suburbs are growing more and more _conservative_ while the more affluent centre remains _left_ leaning ~ "silk stocking socialists" or "limousine liberals" (think of Jack Layton and Olivia Chow) predominating. Now, I'm not sure the _conservatives_ in the suburbs are automatic _Conservatives_, but they appear to want less 'active' government.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 May 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> In the end, newspapers and media outlets are there to question, grill and embarass politicians, just as they have been since the first news sheet was cranked off a Gutenberg press. We are foolish and historically blind if we think that media has not been partisan throughout history. Right wing outlets attack the lefty politicians, and vice versa. The Left and the Right are always screaming about the media being controlled by their enemies. Both distrust the "MSM", which suggests to me that the "MSM" is more or less doing its job.
> 
> Just as it should be, IMHO.



Then they are not 'newspapers', they are 'opinion papers'.

'Newspapers' and media outlets that report what's going on, have morphed, to our detriment.

People used to get the news, bare facts and in depth reporting, then made informed (for the most part) decisions on the facts that they had been presented.

Nowadays, sheeple sit back and eat, but don't digest, the pap and pabulum that the MSM spoon feeds them. They are lazy and the MSM knows it.

The opinion reporting end of the MSMs reflect the wishes and biases of their owners and supporters.

They are not an information outlet. They are multi billion dollar manipulating machines.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 May 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Toronto, however it is defined, is an enormous and enormously complex place. Scarborough or North York, alone, have, almost, the population of New Brunswick; combined they are bigger, in population than Saskatchewan. But there is a growing _inequality_. Look at the _flow_ of income: as the central area remains as a *constant* the suburbs have become less and less rich, relative to it (less yellow (middle income) and more orange (*relatively* low income).
> 
> Yet, oddly enough, it appears, to me, that the suburbs are growing more and more _conservative_ while the more affluent centre remains _left_ leaning ~ "silk stocking socialists" or "limousine liberals" (think of Jack Layton and Olivia Chow) predominating. Now, I'm not sure the _conservatives_ in the suburbs are automatic _Conservatives_, but they appear to want less 'active' government.



Perhaps it's time to bring back the old saw. I know we've been over it a few times before, but I believe with the right discussions and buy in it _might_ be a feasible solution.

Very few citizens of Ontario, outside of Toronto, feel any kind of connection to the place. In fact, many of those people hate Toronto.

If the populations are more than some provinces, perhaps it's time for them to become their own City State, somewhat like the Vatican City within Rome and Italy.

Just a thought.


----------



## The_Falcon (4 May 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Perhaps it's time to bring back the old saw. I know we've been over it a few times before, but I believe with the right discussions and buy in it _might_ be a feasible solution.
> 
> Very few citizens of Ontario, outside of Toronto, feel any kind of connection to the place. In fact, many of those people hate Toronto.
> 
> ...



Mayor Mel was only half joking about that idea.  I wonder if all the provinces would agree to ammend the constitution and let Toronto become an autonomous province.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 May 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Mayor Mel was only half joking about that idea.  I wonder if all the provinces would agree to ammend the constitution and let Toronto become an autonomous province.



Unfortunately, I think the vote would come down as it normally does in Ontario. Toronto has their opinion and the rest of the province has another.

Outside of Toronto, _I think_, most people see TO as nothing more than a place that dictates their lives and a place where their hard earned tax dollars go to die. Toronto is the medieval kingdom, where the emperor lives with his court, advisors and citizens to make his fantasy world a reality. The rest of the province are the peasants scrapping out an existence but having to send their grain and livestock to the king's city to make it function and uphold the appearance of prosperity.


----------



## mariomike (4 May 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> The North York, York, Etobicoke, Scarborough (East York is the exception), rarely get any love or attention.



But, they are, again with the exception of East York, where almost all the mayors come from. 

I served under six. One was from Etobicoke, two from North York, one from Scarborough, one from York and one from Toronto. 

That's not including Mayor Ford from Etobicoke, who was elected after I retired.


----------



## pbi (4 May 2014)

> Toronto needs to coalesce into a full city, before a true Mayor for all, can emerge.



 True, and it is worth remembering that this is a process that is still going on. And I guess it's also true that all great cities are made up of neighbourhoods, districts, boroughs, etc each with its own history and personality. Winnipeg was very much like that when I lived there: created from 13 cities and municipalities, with over 100 named areas. I lived in Fort Garry: it was different from Wolseley or Silver Heights or The Kildonans. Toronto: even more so.

What I'm saying is that the city needs leadership that understands this and brings it along, instead of  using the politics of division/exclusion. Everybody in the city limits of T.O pays taxes-they all deserve to be considered. In fact, they all *demand *to be considered. Ford, as much as he disgusts me, realized that a chunk of the city felt "left out", and he went after that. He only scored a minor plurality (about 40% of the 52% of the electorate who actually cast ballots, IIRC), but he knew how to get it.

What Toronto desperately needs is somebody who can get beyond a plurality that equates to less than  half of half of the voting list. Somebody that both the latte-sippers and the backyard BBQ gangs can at least support, if not love all the time. Running huge cities will not cheaper, or easier. Problems will not respond to bumper-sticker thinking: they need people with the wisdom, maturity and intellectual horsepower to solve them, without being dictators or detached egg-heads with no personality.

That person, I hope, is out there. I don't live in the GTA anymore, but I still have a soft spot for that city. People love to hate it, but there's a lot good about it.


----------



## palacio (4 May 2014)

Mayoral candidates who espouse center-right ideology are considered by the whole Left community together with the Communist Party of Canada as potential threats. They will do whatever in their power to unseat an uncooperative candidate. If it takes to employ Cuban active measures or Cuban dirty tricks campaign to vilify and destroy the reputation of the candidate, these will surely be employed. Mayor David Miller who is an active socialist who coddled tens of thousands of agents of Cuban active measures in TTC and City Hall has never been victimized nor vilified because he toes the socialist line. So what else is new?! Good is good, evil is evil. How can evil be good, how can good be evil? I myself was a victim. Fired from a company riddled with Cuban agents of influence employing active measures. ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 May 2014)

palacio said:
			
		

> Mayoral candidates who espouse center-right ideology are considered by the whole Left community together with the Communist Party of Canada as potential threats. They will do whatever in their power to unseat an uncooperative candidate. If it takes to employ Cuban active measures or Cuban dirty tricks campaign to vilify and destroy the reputation of the candidate, these will surely be employed. Mayor David Miller who is an active socialist who coddled tens of thousands of agents of Cuban active measures in TTC and City Hall has never been victimized nor vilified because he toes the socialist line. So what else is new?! Good is good, evil is evil. How can evil be good, how can good be evil? I myself was a victim. Fired from a company riddled with Cuban agents of influence employing active measures. ;D



Cuban agents?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (4 May 2014)

Busconductor...


----------



## pbi (4 May 2014)

palacio said:
			
		

> Mayoral candidates who espouse center-right ideology are considered by the whole Left community together with the Communist Party of Canada as potential threats. They will do whatever in their power to unseat an uncooperative candidate. If it takes to employ Cuban active measures or Cuban dirty tricks campaign to vilify and destroy the reputation of the candidate, these will surely be employed. Mayor David Miller who is an active socialist who coddled tens of thousands of agents of Cuban active measures in TTC and City Hall has never been victimized nor vilified because he toes the socialist line. So what else is new?! Good is good, evil is evil. How can evil be good, how can good be evil? I myself was a victim. Fired from a company riddled with Cuban agents of influence employing active measures. ;D



Hey palacio!  I am totally with you on this Cuban thing.  I'm a victim of the Cuban socialists in the TTC, too. I get it.  

But, you know, evil can be good. That is called "Good evil". Good can be evil. That is called "evil good". Evil that is really evil is called "evil evil". Good that is really good is called a nice old single-malt "Good good".

I believe Whole Wheat Shreddies were once referred to as "Good good". So that is proof that I'm right.


----------



## palacio (4 May 2014)

They are 'good' in a way that they (Communist Party of Canada) worry about the poor and 'allegedly exploited' even if they pay their children's nannies 2 dollars an hour. They are 'good' in a way that God divided us between 'rich' and 'poor' and that according to them 'God should be cursed' for allowing people 'to be poor'. So 'evil is good', 'good is evil'. And when they make an issue that "God is dead" it meant that 'they have killed God'. ;D ;D


----------



## pbi (4 May 2014)

palacio said:
			
		

> They are 'good' in a way that they (Communist Party of Canada) worry about the poor and 'allegedly exploited' even if they pay their children's nannies 2 dollars an hour. They are 'good' in a way that God divided us between 'rich' and 'poor' and that according to them 'God should be cursed' for allowing people 'to be poor'. So 'evil is good', 'good is evil'. And when they make an issue that "God is dead" it meant that 'they have killed God'. ;D ;D



Yo, brother...... :nod:


----------



## palacio (4 May 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> Hey palacio!  I am totally with you on this Cuban thing.  I'm a victim of the Cuban socialists in the TTC, too. I get it.
> 
> But, you know, evil can be good. That is called "Good evil". Good can be evil. That is called "evil good". Evil that is really evil is called "evil evil". Good that is really good is called a nice old single-malt "Good good".
> 
> I believe Whole Wheat Shreddies were once referred to as "Good good". So that is proof that I'm right.



pbi, you know what branch of the government is also riddled with Cuban agents of influence? Queen's Park! Send your resume and use an Army general as your reference or guarantor, I am betting my last 183 thousand dollars, you will get rejected or if you pass temporarily you will be fired 'one day before you reach your sixth month'...hi hi hi ;D ;D


----------



## pbi (4 May 2014)

palacio said:
			
		

> pbi, you know what branch of the government is also riddled with Cuban agents of influence? Queen's Park! Send your resume and use an Army general as your reference or guarantor, I am betting my last 183 thousand dollars, you will get rejected or if you pass temporarily you will be fired 'one day before you reach your sixth month'...hi hi hi ;D ;D



Wow man you are so checked out on this stuff. Who would have believed that  if you used an Army General as a reference to get a job at Queen's Park it wouldn't work because of _Los Cubanos?_ 

_Aii carramba!_


----------



## The_Falcon (5 May 2014)

mariomike said:
			
		

> But, they are, again with the exception of East York, where almost all the mayors come from.
> 
> I served under six. One was from Etobicoke, two from North York, one from Scarborough, one from York and one from Toronto.
> 
> That's not including Mayor Ford from Etobicoke, who was elected after I retired.



All the Mayors?  2 out of 3 thus far (Ford, Lastman).


----------



## The_Falcon (5 May 2014)

Palacio gets to go in a time out for now, and deal with his personal issues with Cuban agents.  We now return to our regularly scheduled programming. 

HM


----------



## Scott (5 May 2014)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Busconductor...



 :nod:

Obviously ran out of meds again.


----------



## mariomike (5 May 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> All the Mayors?  2 out of 3 thus far (Ford, Lastman).



In 1972, when I was sworn-in, the Metro Chairman was the most senior political figure in the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto: Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, York, East York and Toronto. 

It was simply referred to as "Metro".

I served under:

Albert Campbell from Scarborough

Paul Godfrey from North York

Dennis Flynn from Etobicoke

Alan Tonks from York

In 1998, as you know, Metro amalgamated.  The area remains the same 240 square miles today as it was when I hired on. As far as our Department and employment was concerned, absolutely nothing changed.

We continued to serve under:

Mel Lastman from North York

David Miller from Toronto

Rob Ford from Etobicoke was elected after I retired.


----------



## The_Falcon (5 May 2014)

mariomike said:
			
		

> In 1972, when I was sworn-in, the Metro Chairman was the most senior political figure in the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto: Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, York, East York and Toronto.
> 
> It was simply referred to as "Metro".
> 
> ...



Metro Chairmen were not mayors though.  I think most people (who didn't work in the Metro level of government) would be hard pressed to associate the Metro Chairman as a "Mayor" since each pre-amalgamation city had it's own mayor, and most people were familiar with that person, since it's the person they elected and ostensibly "knew" the community they served.  Even now, if one were to go to Peel, York, Durham, or Halton, very very very few people would be able to tell you who sits as the chairman of those regions.


----------



## pbi (5 May 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Palacio gets to go in a time out for now, and deal with his personal issues with Cuban agents.  We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.
> 
> HM



Hmmmm...I guess I was kind of feeding the wildlife there, wasn't I... :-[


----------



## Danjanou (5 May 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Palacio gets to go in a time out for now, and deal with his personal issues with Cuban agents.  We now return to our regularly scheduled programming.
> 
> HM



Before he left he did record all his evidence for us http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054152/  8)


----------



## pbi (5 May 2014)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Before he left he did record all his evidence for us http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054152/  8)



Aha!!! I knew it! Damn those vacuum cleaner salesmen! Yet again they expose our nefarious Cuban plot to take over the TTC and victimize innocent bus conductors...


----------



## OSS (13 May 2014)

http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/2014/05/11/tim-hudak-photo-op-derailed-on-ttc-subway

Communism, the trend and the future. TTC's odd policy of refusing debit card payments on regular fare and one-day passes. Economic sabotage made my security company no.1 in attracting WORRIED clients like defense industries.


----------



## George Wallace (13 May 2014)

OSS said:
			
		

> http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/2014/05/11/tim-hudak-photo-op-derailed-on-ttc-subway
> 
> Communism, the trend and the future. TTC's odd policy of refusing debit card payments on regular fare and one-day passes. Economic sabotage made my security company no.1 in attracting WORRIED clients like defense industries.



Huh?  ???


----------



## Fishbone Jones (13 May 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Huh?  ???



busconductor

Binned his first post already, we'll leave this one here with his banned tag.


----------



## ModlrMike (13 May 2014)

We should have a thread of Banned Members showing the types of posts that lead there. Might be instructive for some of the more marginal posters.


----------



## GAP (13 May 2014)

I didn't mind the  election 2014 thread, somewhat interesting....but to add Rob Ford....Gawd, I've avoided that thread like the plague..... :


----------



## dapaterson (16 May 2014)

So, if you're in rehab, would it be a good idea to take the May 2-4 weekend off at the cottage?  Yes, that's what Our Man Robbie appear to be doing...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/05/16/rob-ford-spotted-in-ontario-cottage-country-taking-pictures-with-town-residents/


----------



## DBA (18 May 2014)

It is rehab not prison and I wonder how this is national news. A notorious/famous (depending on your viewpoint) politician being sociable and letting people take pictures with him while he is running errands in the afternoon is nothing special or noteworthy.


----------



## Edward Campbell (24 May 2014)

Toronto matters, the city accounts for 19% of Canada's GDP, it is ranked as one of the top 10 financial centres in the world, it has a population of 2.6 million, greater than Nova Scotia (921K), New Brunswick (751K), PEI and (140K) and Newfoundland and Labrador (514K) combined. The next mayor of Toronto matters; his or her decisions and policies will _drive_ Ontario and, for better or worse, Ontario is nearly half of Canada.

In an article in the _Globe and Mail_ Marcus Gee explains how Olivia Chow is trying to present herself as a _moderate_, as "a practical politician who would guard the public purse as closely as any conservative."

It will be a hard sell for many, based on her past public statements, which Marcus Gee highlights, but she has attracted some "A List" supporters who are not all 'limousine liberals' or 'silk stocking socialists.'


----------



## The_Falcon (20 Jun 2014)

Ford will be leaving rehab soon, and with perfect timing the OHRC has said discrimination against people with addictions is bad....  Not a fan of "Human Rights" Commissions, however I do get giddy when they (and by extension, their more leftist support) have to deal with situations like this.  

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/06/19/christie-blatchford-new-human-rights-ruling-says-not-to-discriminate-against-addicts-what-does-this-mean-for-rob-ford/



> Christie Blatchford: New human-rights ruling says not to discriminate against addicts. What does this mean for Rob Ford?
> Republish ReprintRepublish OnlineRepublish OfflineReprintChristie Blatchford | June 19, 2014 | Last Updated: Jun 20 8:41 AM ET
> More from Christie Blatchford
> 
> ...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Jun 2014)

I want him to be Mayor again after the election.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Jun 2014)

I see you like raising the middle digit as much as I do.


----------



## The_Falcon (21 Jun 2014)

If Doug Holyday decides to come back, now that he has been trounced from Queens Park, I wouldn't mind Ford again.  But he is not my first choice.  Voting Michael Tramov.  2nd Choice John Tory, 3rd Rob Ford 4th Anyone but Chow.


----------



## CougarKing (27 Oct 2014)

John Tory is the new mayor of Toronto to the disappointment of the Ford brothers.

Reuters



> *Toronto replaces disgraced mayor, rejects brother's bid for top job*
> 
> By Andrea Hopkins
> 
> ...


----------



## ModlrMike (28 Oct 2014)

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> John Tory is the new mayor of Toronto to the disappointment of the Ford brothers.
> 
> Reuters



So that's two mayoral elections the big orange machine has lost. Might make for some interesting political theatre.


----------



## The_Falcon (28 Oct 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> So that's two mayoral elections the big orange machine has lost. Might make for some interesting political theatre.



Because the "burbs" awoke from their sleep in 2010, and won't go back to bed now.  Despite all her talk of unity, Chow still only really catered to inner core of the city, and the people in Scarborough/Etobicoke, saw right through her.  A pithy few rush hour buses means diddly if you are trying to commute via the TTC from points beyond Kennedy and Eglinton, or Kipling/Islington Stations.


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Because the "burbs" awoke from their sleep in 2010, and won't go back to bed now.



Looks like some overslept, or went to bed early, according to this graphic. This map breaks down the percentage of voter turnout by ward:
http://politics.theglobeandmail.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/turnout.png

"How the great Ford divide could come to a city near you
Rob Ford won on a wave of suburban voter discontent, and those voters are still angry—as are people just like them, in cities across Canada"
http://www.macleans.ca/politics/how-the-great-ford-divide-could-come-to-a-city-near-you/

Macleans
October 21, 2014


----------



## The_Falcon (28 Oct 2014)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Looks like some overslept, or went to bed early, according to this graphic. This map breaks down the percentage of voter turnout by ward:
> http://politics.theglobeandmail.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/turnout.png
> 
> "How the great Ford divide could come to a city near you
> ...



They still overwhelming voted Ford though.


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> They still overwhelming voted Ford though.



They certainly did.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1638377/interactive-map-election-shows-sharp-geographic-divide/


----------



## jpjohnsn (29 Oct 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> They still overwhelming voted Ford though.


Well, they HAD to, didn't they.  The prospect of John Tory being elected is "like ISIS coming to Toronto.  It couldn't be worse!"
 :facepalm:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ford-nation-predicts-doomsday-for-toronto-after-tory-victory-132358457.html?cmp=cafb_news


----------



## The_Falcon (29 Oct 2014)

Olivia Chow would have been much much worse.


----------



## X Royal (29 Oct 2014)

Doug Ford after losing his bid for Toronto's mayor is now considering running for the Ontario P.C. leadership. :
http://www.am980.ca/2014/10/29/doug-ford-considers-run-for-ontario-pc-leadership/


----------



## The_Falcon (29 Oct 2014)

X Royal said:
			
		

> Doug Ford after losing his bid for Toronto's mayor is now considering running for the Ontario P.C. leadership. :
> http://www.am980.ca/2014/10/29/doug-ford-considers-run-for-ontario-pc-leadership/



Certainly make things more interesting, his numbers in a lot of Toronto were no joke.  Wouldn't be surprised if Chow, also considers the provincial NDP.


----------



## Danjanou (29 Oct 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Certainly make things more interesting, his numbers in a lot of Toronto were no joke.  Wouldn't be surprised if Chow, also considers the provincial NDP.



Possible, their present leadership is considered vulnerable after their recent performance in the last election at least according to soem MSM reporting.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Oct 2014)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Certainly make things more interesting, his numbers in a lot of Toronto were no joke.  Wouldn't be surprised if Chow, also considers the provincial NDP.



I agree, the results must make _Conservatives_, of both the provincial PC and federal CPC varieties happy:










Let's make John Tory a _mix_ of Conservative and Liberal for the purposes of 2015, but we must see Doug Ford as 100% Conservative ... anathema to Liberals.

Now look at this map:






The heaviest voter turnout was in the middle class, middle aged suburbs, Ford territory. The areas that voted for John Tory often showed the lowest voter turnout.

And, one more important map:






The "ethnic vote" is suburban and Conservative.


----------



## mariomike (30 Oct 2014)

Doug received 28% less than Rob did in 2010 by percentage of total votes.

"For the most part, turnout was higher in wards that voted for winner John Tory, and lower in areas that voted for Doug Ford.
Wilfrid Laurier University politics professor Barry Kay attributes the record-high turnout to a combination of enthusiasm from fired-up Ford Nation – and fear, from others in the city, of another four years of Ford."
http://globalnews.ca/news/1639076/interactive-map-torontos-record-high-turnout-by-ward/


----------



## X Royal (30 Oct 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The heaviest voter turnout was in the middle class, middle aged suburbs, Ford territory. The areas that voted for John Tory often showed the lowest voter turnout.


Actually if you look at the maps you posted the area that Ford won in is generally in the areas of the lower voter turnout.
If you look to see where Ont PC support is you will find it is in the rural areas in southern Ontario from Windsor to Ottawa. This area basically misses the Toronto area.
These areas which hold PC seats provincially would never support Ford as a party leader.
With Ford as a leader I highly suspect at least 1/2 of these seats would be lost. 
Outside of Toronto the Fords are considered as jokes.


----------



## a_majoor (30 Oct 2014)

Two interesting data points:

1. Although leftists were practicqally salivating over the idea Olivia Chow would become Queen of Toronto, she came in third in the election; and,

2, John Tory and Doug Ford were both cast as "Conservatives", but came in 1-2 and had vote totals that were both individually and collectively higher than Olivia Chow's. (I use quotes around Conservative since neither one is fully consistent with conservatism as a political philosophy).

While this does not mean that Toronto is suddenly jumping into the Conservative camp, it may mean Toronto is not the Liberal/Left/NDP bastion that many people seem to think it could be in 2015 for the Federal election, and more seats than we imagine might be up for grabs.

I also think the Fords should not be written off so quickly, look at the vote count again (Rob won his riding and Douog came in a respectable second). There are a lot of supporters out there and they can become a force for good or ill (depending on if they want to help or hinder Toronto's new political order).


----------



## mariomike (30 Oct 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> (Rob won his riding and Douog came in a respectable second).



Mikey Ford also got in as Trustee without doing a single interview or debate prior to the election. 

His political debut is at 02:10
http://vimeo.com/110365134


----------



## pbi (30 Oct 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Two interesting data points:
> 
> 1. Although leftists were practicqally salivating over the idea Olivia Chow would become Queen of Toronto, she came in third in the election; and,
> 
> ...



Not surprisingly, I disagree with you. I don't think that you can characterize a city as diverse and fragmented as Toronto as a "bastion" of anything. Although, we should recall that when a particular political faction can't seem to get traction somewhere, they are quick to condemn the place in question as a "bastion" of whatever it is they don't like. IMHO Chow never, ever, had a shot at Mayor under the current political structure of Toronto. She might have swung it in the pre-amalgamation days, but those days are long gone.

What Toronto desperately needed (and most egregiously did NOT have in Brother Bob) was a "Mayor of All The People". If you consider the entire Toronto voting list, The Bobster got in by a slim plurality: about 40% of the 40% of voters who actually bothered to cast a vote, or in other words about 20% of the list.  I would speculate that many of the people who voted for Ford were actually indulging in that ancient and honourable Canadian tradition: "voting against something". In this case, the "something" was the lacklustre Miller regime, which provided a great stock of ammunition for Ford Nation and all its populist pot-bangers, along with sane Torontonians who were just fed up with the way things were.

This time around, if I'm not mistaken  about 60% of the voting list actually voted. In my opinion, this makes the Ford defeat this time more significant than the Ford victory last time.

What TO has now, I think, is a man who, if he is careful, can be a "Mayor of All The People", or at least a lot more of the people. I would expect now to see a lot less high-school bully-boy behaviour and more of a steady hand on the tiller. God knows the city needs it, right now. The whole business of running these gigantic contraptions we call "cities" is not getting simpler and easier (or cheaper). There is at least a minimum intellectual level required for the job, and my impression is that Mayor Tory has it and much, much more.

I wish him luck.

As for the Fords...well--after all their squawking about democracy, they can now eat the results of democracy in action. Be careful what you wish for. Brother Bob is reduced once more to the place he came from, but after having revealed what a city with him at the helm would be like. As for Doug: well, let's see what he can do with the Ontario Tories (if, in fact, any human being can do anything with them).

One day the folks on the Right will realize that this isn't Alabama: we are much more comfortable with the good old Red Tories of the cut of Bill Davis (remember the Big Blue Machine?), than with disruptive demagogues who appeal to the lowest common denominators in their flock.


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## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> Not surprisingly, I disagree with you. I don't think that you can characterize a city as diverse and fragmented as Toronto as a "bastion" of anything. Although, we should recall that when a particular political faction can't seem to get traction somewhere, they are quick to condemn the place in question as a "bastion" of whatever it is they don't like. IMHO Chow never, ever, had a shot at Mayor under the current political structure of Toronto. She might have swung it in the pre-amalgamation days, but those days are long gone.
> 
> What Toronto desperately needed (and most egregiously did NOT have in Brother Bob) was a "Mayor of All The People". If you consider the entire Toronto voting list, The Bobster got in by a slim plurality: about 40% of the 40% of voters who actually bothered to cast a vote, or in other words about 20% of the list.  I would speculate that many of the people who voted for Ford were actually indulging in that ancient and honourable Canadian tradition: "voting against something". In this case, the "something" was the lacklustre Miller regime, which provided a great stock of ammunition for Ford Nation and all its populist pot-bangers, along with sane Torontonians who were just fed up with the way things were.
> 
> ...



pbi - I think you are indulging in some wishful thinking.  Demagogues are always popular.  Bill Davis's Ontario, along with John Diefenbaker's Canada, is long gone.   Many of those new Canadians have grown up in demagogic countries and some of them long for the clarity associated with direction.  Democratic chaos is not understood - especially when you are not getting rich - which was the reason you left the Old Country in the first place.


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## mariomike (30 Oct 2014)

I think Rob was really on to something with his Ford Fests.  They were part political rally, fun fair and revival meeting. 

Something I recall Kreskin saying, "I could never make someone do something he didn't want to do. But it's different in a crowd."

Rob has been re-admitted to Mount Sinai and will start his third round of chemo-therapy on Monday. Politics aside, he's still the mayor and in our thoughts and prayers.


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## pbi (31 Oct 2014)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> pbi - I think you are indulging in some wishful thinking.  Demagogues are always popular.  Bill Davis's Ontario, along with John Diefenbaker's Canada, is long gone.   Many of those new Canadians have grown up in demagogic countries and some of them long for the clarity associated with direction.  Democratic chaos is not understood - especially when you are not getting rich - which was the reason you left the Old Country in the first place.



Yes-demagogues can indeed be popular. That is their nature, and what makes them dangerous, because they will almost always be shilling for some very distorted view of things, or focused on "single issue" fights.

I should state my biases up front, and say that in my opinion the best possible outcome for Canada in 2015 would be a Tory minority. A "perfect world" result for me (although, as you point out, probably quite counter-factual) would be a return to the "Red Toryism" that could appeal to a much wider swath of Canadians and avoid the US style of bi-polar dysfunction, in which political discourse is reduced to mouth foaming and ranting.

I've also read "The Big Shift", and I'm aware that the current brand of Toryism, both federally and provincially, has realized that there is fertile soil amongst some segments of new Canadians who hold social, cultural and frequently religious views which are much more conservative than those of mainstream Canadians.  As far as I can tell, these particular groups continue to represent only a minority of Canadians, although they are perhaps over-represented in the major urban centres.

Naturally, Tories seek to exploit these like-minded individuals to boost their share of hte ballot: I would not expect much different behaviour from any political party. Politicians in this country often seem, IMHO, far too fixated on their short term gains and the survival of their brands, than on a longer term view.

I also take note of your very accurate observation about "democratic chaos", which Churchill would probably have observed upon as being one of the messy but glorious aspects of our system. We absolutely do not want to pander to, or in any way exploit, the innate desires of people who yearn for "The Big Man" system. We know where that goes, and I think sometimes I see signs of a drift towards it.

I wonder (and worry) about the wisdom and long-term effect of encouraging and politically exploiting the meaner, nastier and more regressive aspects of certain cultural groups in our country. We might want to be careful about where we end up with that.


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## Edward Campbell (31 Oct 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> Yes-demagogues can indeed be popular. That is their nature, and what makes them dangerous, because they will almost always be shilling for some very distorted view of things, or focused on "single issue" fights.
> 
> I should state my biases up front, and say that in my opinion the best possible outcome for Canada in 2015 would be a Tory minority. A "perfect world" result for me (although, as you point out, probably quite counter-factual) would be a return to the "Red Toryism" that could appeal to a much wider swath of Canadians and avoid the US style of bi-polar dysfunction, in which political discourse is reduced to mouth foaming and ranting.
> 
> ...




I think that a common oversimplification, especially popular in some segments of the _commentariat_.

There is, indeed, "fertile ground" out there for Conservatives:

     It is, as it always has been, among older voters, people of our ages who both _*a)*_ vote in disproportionately large numbers, and _*b)*_ hold some socio-economic views that
     coincide better with the CPC than with either the Liberals and NDP;

     It's in rural and small town Canada - and I'll describe Peterboroug, ON, for example, as being at the top end of "small town," but, of course, places like Shelburne, ON and Unity, SK are
     the classic small towns, and reliably Conservative, too; and 

     It's also in the suburbs, around the big cities, some of which, but by no means all, have large immigrant populations, especially East and South Asians who, like senior citizens, share
     some of the views espoused by the CPC.

It's a large, diverse, and, broadly, representative slice of the country. Most Canadians do not fall into the Conservative _pool_ of potential voters, *but* more Canadians are _potential CPC voters_ than 'fit' into either the Liberal or NDP camps.


----------



## pbi (31 Oct 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> It's a large, diverse, and, broadly, representative slice of the country. Most Canadians do not fall into the Conservative _pool_ of potential voters, *but* more Canadians are _potential CPC voters_ than 'fit' into either the Liberal or NDP camps.



And I think that a return to something more like the now much-derided, "obsolete" Red Toryism of the past could further broaden the slice. I think that what happened in the Toronto election is indicative.


----------



## Edward Campbell (31 Oct 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> And I think that a return to something more like the now much-derided, "obsolete" Red Toryism of the past could further broaden the slice. I think that what happened in the Toronto election is indicative.




There is still a Red Tory _rump_, Peter MacKay leads it. It, in fact, is 90% of the reason the CPC "broke through" in Ontario under Stephen Harper. Ontarians were, still are, suspicious of the old Parson Preston Manning led _Reform_ model. For every Deborah Grey and Diane Ablonczy, each of whom could, easily have won any suburban Ontario riding, there was a Darrel Stinson and a perceived _religious right_ caucus. But, even in Red Tory Ontario the CPC was able to elect religious conservatives - think Wladyslaw Lizon from Mississauga.

Jason Kenney "reached out," with incredible sensitivity and political skill, to the "ethinc vote," especially in suburban Toronto/South-Western Ontario and in the Lower Mainland of BC. He, and the PM, did so by listening, very, very carefully, to their concerns: hence the CPC's abortion policy. Although a handful of MP, including the above mentioned Mr Lizon, are ferociously (religiously) anti-abortion, the CPC understands that access to abortion is not an issue for East and South Asians; they think abortions are 'normal' and a woman's own business. But the CPC will not folow M. Trudeau's lead and impose that view on its members.

I remember the Red Tories - not always fondly, I thought Bill Davis, for example, was a weak and often misguided premier. He spent too much and _pandered_ to faux liberal values. Give me Leslie Frost and John Robarts any time, both solidly Blue Tories: good managers and defenders of individual liberty who fought against Ottawa's centralizing nature.


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## Colin Parkinson (31 Oct 2014)

The current CPC is sloppy, the writing of the Acts they create adhoc is terrible and we are living that current dream  :brickwall:

The way they treat the PS is no different than the way the Liberals treated the gun owners, they are so busy trying to change everything at once, no one bothers to actually consider the effect of those changes and then are surprised when things go off the rails. They also swallow their own propaganda to much. The only saving grace is the other side of the fence will be worse. I am hoping either for a CPC minority or a 1 vote majority, which will make them stop and think more.


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## mariomike (31 Oct 2014)

I wish Doug luck in his future endeavors, but I don't care if he goes into out-of-town party politics or back to Chicago. 

"Toronto's loss, Chicago's gain," Doug Ford says when asked about his plans for private life."
Elizabeth Church
Toronto City Hall Bureau Chief for The Globe and Mail 28 Oct 2014 

Here in Toronto, Ford Nation ( and whoever ends up as their figurehead while Rob is on the canvass ) isn't going anywhere. The wards that voted for Doug lack quality access to our transit corridors. 

They didn't vote for buses, or LRTs ( Sometimes incorrectly referred to as streetcars. As in "the St. Clair disaster", which it isn't. ) or Smart Track ( Doug calls it "Backtrack" ). 

Rob and Doug promised Ford Nation "subways! subways! subways!". Just like the "elites" have.

Many are poor and live in priority neighbourhoods. They see public sector spending ( ie: "the gravy train" ) as lavish, and likely don't care about bike lanes. 

They don't care that Rob is rich and less than perfect. He returns your calls, comes to the doors of TCHC units with his fridge magnets and gets potholes fixed. He is likely the most famous international celebrity many will ever get to take a selfie with.

Scandals and ineptitude cost Ford Nation much of the initial support of high and middle income voters, but it's core remains intact. 

My personal ( based on living in, and working for, the city my entire life ) preference would be a return to our most senior political figure being elected by members of Council. The change to the system we have now was made by Queen's Park, and they are the ones who would have to reverse it.  

If interested in voter turnout and who votes in Toronto municipal elections...

Voter turnout:

•Toronto: 60 per cent

•Mississauga: 36 per cent

•Brampton: 36 per cent

•Vaughan: 30 per cent

•Oshawa: 26 per cent.

"Who Votes in Toronto Municipal Elections?"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/244003230/Who-Votes-in-Toronto-Municipal-Elections


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## mariomike (2 Nov 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The heaviest voter turnout was in the middle class, middle aged suburbs, Ford territory. The areas that voted for John Tory often showed the lowest voter turnout.



"Toronto's poorest neighbourhoods chose Doug Ford

Doug Ford's vote was highest in Toronto lowest-income wards where voter turn-out is the lowest. The opposite is true of John Tory's support."
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/toronto2014election/2014/10/28/torontos_poorest_neighbourhoods_chose_doug_ford.html

"Monday’s results mirror the United Way’s 2004 Poverty by Postal Code study..."

"Although voter turnout was up across the city, with initial reports of almost 61 per cent casting ballots, it was highest in the wealthy inner core that supported mayor-elect John Tory and lowest in the struggling suburban wards that favoured Doug Ford."


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## pbi (2 Nov 2014)

mariomike said:
			
		

> "Toronto's poorest neighbourhoods chose Doug Ford
> 
> Doug Ford's vote was highest in Toronto lowest-income wards where voter turn-out is the lowest. The opposite is true of John Tory's support."
> http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/toronto2014election/2014/10/28/torontos_poorest_neighbourhoods_chose_doug_ford.html
> ...



This is interesting, because IMHO these people are the exact opposite of what I thought the Ford "base" consists of. I bet that many of the folks in "Ford Nation" would look on the residents of these poorer wards as "lazy welfare layabouts, gang-bangers and useless immigrants taking our jobs".
The lesson for Tory here is that he needs to come across as much less of an upper-middle class "toff" and start showing some active concern for these wards. In other words, be a true "Mayor of All The People". If he can't do it himself directly, he needs to use those of his people who can do it for him.
What TO certainly doesn't need is any more social wars. There is a much more existential fight ahead, IMHO, for Toronto and all big cities, and that is the fight to stay solvent, liveable and avoid the fate of Detroit. (OK...that last part was a bit over the top, but you know what I mean)


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## Kirkhill (2 Nov 2014)

I just glanced at an article in this week's Economist describing English politician Nigel Farage and his ability to pull in both Tory and Labour supporters.  Generally, it seems, those supporters are of a certain age (mine?) and long for the days when they could have a stand up fight with out those silly buggers from across the water interfering.

Nigel Farage's persona comes across as what we used to call a Teddy Boy.  In the Elvis era of slick backed hair and leather jackets these guys wore three-quarter length Edwardian style coats, complete with velvet collars, in bold patterns.  Their look was generally accessorised with tight jeans, winkle-picker boots, chains and switch-blades.  Louts with flair.

Rob Ford could also be described as a lout with flair.

Which brings us back to demagoguery and the enduring charm of the "Bad Boy".  

Marion Barry and the Daley clan immediately spring to mind.


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## mariomike (2 Nov 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> In other words, be a true "Mayor of All The People".



That would be nice, but I didn't see it under Lastman or Miller. And _especially_ not in the 2010 and 2014 voting patterns with Rob and Doug. I would say our neighbourhoods have actually grown 

further apart over the years.

There are 140 neighbourhoods officially recognized by the City of Toronto and upwards of 240 official and un-official neighbourhoods within the city's boundaries. This does not include the 13 

Neighbourhood Improvement Areas (formerly called Priority Areas). 

The boundaries have not changed since 1954.

"Rob Ford hints at Ford family candidacy in 2018 election" 
 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/news-video/video-rob-ford-hints-at-ford-family-candidacy-in-2018-election/article21347648/


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## pbi (3 Nov 2014)

Mariomike: Miller, I agree: he seemed to me to be a zero who was largely focused on Old TO, but I confess I didn't pay all that much attention to his reign. His biggest result was that he created the conditions for the Rise of The Fords.

Mel, on the other hand, I beg to differ with you. Granted, he often bordered a bit on the nutcase side of things, and he was originally a "suburban" guy (if you want to call the City of North York a "suburb"). But, that said, I never saw in him the sinister, bullying, oafish side that I saw far too often in the last Hizzoner. My impression is that he was not on a warpath against any part of the city, not exploiting the Old City against the boroughs. Mel was in no way a perfect Mayor (I saw him in operation up close and personal during the Great Snow Storm when I was the G3 of LFCA and we were working very closely with the brand new megaCity of Toronto.), but I don't put him in the same league as Brother Bob, at all.


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## mariomike (3 Nov 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> Mariomike: Miller, I agree: he seemed to me to be a zero who was largely focused on Old TO, but I confess I didn't pay all that much attention to his reign. His biggest result was that he created the conditions for the Rise of The Fords.
> 
> Mel, on the other hand, I beg to differ with you. Granted, he often bordered a bit on the nutcase side of things, and he was originally a "suburban" guy (if you want to call the City of North York a "suburb"). But, that said, I never saw in him the sinister, bullying, oafish side that I saw far too often in the last Hizzoner. My impression is that he was not on a warpath against any part of the city, not exploiting the Old City against the boroughs. Mel was in no way a perfect Mayor (I saw him in operation up close and personal during the Great Snow Storm when I was the G3 of LFCA and we were working very closely with the brand new megaCity of Toronto.), but I don't put him in the same league as Brother Bob, at all.



Mayor Miller won an absolute majority in all but 2 of our 44 wards:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_municipal_election,_2006#mediaviewer/File:Toronto_mayor_-_2006.PNG

He served two terms as mayor ( Rob only served one ), and did not seek a third. He has been very well employed since leaving politics. 

Mayor Lastman said, “I’m not a genius, obviously, but he ( Rob Ford ) makes me look like one."

Rob didn't have to fight the "Jobs for Life" and "Sick Bank Gratuity" battles with Local 416 that Lastman and Miller did.  

I completely agree with your comparison of Mel and Rob Ford. 

I was very grateful for the military support during that storm.   

My one and only concern with Mel was his handling of SARS. 

Incidentally, PBI, this is Toronto's Emergency Plan dated Dec. 2013. It shows that Rob's powers had already been delegated to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly:
http://www1.toronto.ca/City%20Of%20Toronto/Office%20of%20Emergency%20Management/Files/pdf/E/emergency_plan.pdf


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## pbi (4 Nov 2014)

mariomike said:
			
		

> ...I was very grateful for the military support during that storm. ...



You're welcome. It was quite an experience (and not all good, either). It was the initial and relatively small-scale military support to Toronto Fire and Toronto EMS in some downtown stations that actually got the whole ball rolling: it just grew from there until we had the Immediate Reaction Unit and a task force from 2 CER deployed from Petawawa, and several hundred reservists involved. I still have a picture somewhere of a Bison with EMS signs on it rolling down a Toronto street.


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## mariomike (4 Nov 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> You're welcome. It was quite an experience (and not all good, either). It was the initial and relatively small-scale military support to Toronto Fire and Toronto EMS in some downtown stations that actually got the whole ball rolling: it just grew from there until we had the Immediate Reaction Unit and a task force from 2 CER deployed from Petawawa, and several hundred reservists involved.



That was about 15 years ago. The amount of development downtown since then has been phenomenal. There's severe traffic congestion at the best of times, so I wonder what the effect of a major snowstorm now would be? I've been retired for five and a half years, so I'll never have to worry about that again.  

Our ambulances do not have snow tires, and I think one of the problems every winter, and that one in particular, is that during a snowstorm crews should consider taking different routes, and park farther away from scenes and walk.



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> I still have a picture somewhere of a Bison with EMS signs on it rolling down a Toronto street.



We'll never see the EMS logo again in Toronto. It's been removed from everything. The station signs, fleet, uniforms, badges, ID and everything else have been re-branded, "Toronto Paramedic Service".

Below is what they now wear on their shoulders. It came into effect on 1 Oct 2014 under Mayor Ford.

Rob is still the mayor for one more month, even though council stripped him of his power a year ago. Since losing the mayoral election, Doug has expressed an interest in provincial politics, so it will be interesting to see how that works out for him. It would also be interesting to see after Mikey's victory in north Etobicoke, if older brother Randy will throw his hat in the ring. When asked on election night if he'd consider running for office himself, Randy said that he wouldn't rule it out.

The question now is which Ford will be in the 2018 mayoral election. Much will depend on the state of Rob's health in four years.

"Rob Ford vows to run for mayor again in 2018"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/rob-ford-resilient-despite-brothers-defeat/article21344689/


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## pbi (4 Nov 2014)

Isn't that badge something like the old "winged wheel" of the old City of Toronto public ambulance service?

As for the political future of the Ford family: I guess we'll just have to see.


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## mariomike (4 Nov 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> Isn't that badge something like the old "winged wheel" of the old City of Toronto public ambulance service?



No. Not at all. They intentionally obliterated it. They got rid of the winged-wheel in 1998 when amalgamation came. Erased all memory of it. Not a trace to be found. I received my gold 25-year watch  prior to the amalgamation, so it has the old winged-wheel. I must have received one of the last ones.

There was one rather touching moment though.  After Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly took over Rob's power last year, one of the first things he did was have Rob's fish tank removed and unveiled a giant portrait of Chairman Fred Gardiner in its place. The portrait had been in storage since the 1998 amalgamation. I had seen it many times prior to 1998.

Norm said, "It is my contention that basically the amalgamated City of Toronto is the heir of the metropolitan government of Toronto. Not the City of Toronto. The metropolitan government of Toronto was considered one of the most successful governments in Canada and yet to have no evidence that it once existed bothered me.”

I served under four Chairmen and two mayors. Gardiner was before my time, and Ford came after. But, I remember reading this about Fred Gardiner. He visited Robert Moses for several days in NYC shortly after taking over Metro:

 "The thing that impressed me about Robert Moses was the first question he asked me was, 'What the hell are you going to do about that mess up there now that you're in charge of it?' I had to think fast, but I knew what to say. I said I was going to be like Stalin. I'd have a five or ten-year plan and I'd lay out exactly what I had and how I was going to spend it and I'd know exactly where the money was going.
 His only comment was, 'Never mind those high-minded advisors. Keep your staff small. Don't let them boss you around. Hire them when you want them and fire them when you want. Make them work for you, and not the other way around.'
 He didn't have to convince me. That was how I intended to proceed. I was going to run my own show. That's why they called me the bulldozer."


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## pbi (4 Nov 2014)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Norm said, "It is my contention that basically the amalgamated City of Toronto is the heir of the metropolitan government of Toronto. Not the City of Toronto. The metropolitan government of Toronto was considered one of the most successful governments in Canada and yet to have no evidence that it once existed bothered me.”



And this is why I keep saying that what Toronto needs is a Mayor of All The People: as huge a challenge as that is.



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> .
> ...His only comment was, 'Never mind those high-minded advisors. Keep your staff small. ..


 If only the CAF could follow these words. A small, hard-working staff is almost always better than a huge blob of silo dwellers.


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## mariomike (5 Nov 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> And this is why I keep saying that what Toronto needs is a Mayor of All The People: as huge a challenge as that is.



I think that is why Doug did not get in as mayor. Have to wait and see if he makes premier.

From Global News.

Ford Nation 2014:
http://globalnews.ca/news/1652571/ford-nation-2014-15-things-demographics-tell-us-about-toronto-voters/

"One major change since the 2010 election is income: Four years ago, there wasn’t a major correlation between income and Ford support. This year Ford voters were much more likely to have lower incomes than others."


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## a_majoor (5 Nov 2014)

I hate to keep reminding everyone, but Doug came in second with a very respectable vote total, Rob won his election and another Ford was also elected to a trustee position.

"Mayor of all the people" is a nice title, something like "Admiral of the Ocean Sea", but politicians need to find a compelling narrative and sell it to more people than any of the competition. Ontario's Liberal party and their union allies managed to totally clean everyone else's clock (including the taxpayers) by fear mongering, transferring people's attention from the very real scandals, massive debt and inept economic performance of the last decade to their narrative of what *might* happen under a PCPO government, demonstrating the principle in action.

The Fords have chosen a populist narrative standing against the political establishment (yes, you constantly remind us the Fords are a rich and connected family as well), and used it well. How well it can translate outside of Toronto is something that has to be tested, but I suspect Doug has been putting out feelers already and seems to like what he has seen, otherwise he would never have started talking about provincial politics.


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## mariomike (6 Nov 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I hate to keep reminding everyone, but Doug came in second with a very respectable vote total, Rob won his election and another Ford was also elected to a trustee position.



Good luck to Doug in out of town politics, or back at Deco labels in Chicago. Either way, he's finished in Ward 2.

Rob and Mikey are contained in Ward 2. That's just one ward out of 44 in the city, and just one vote ( only Rob can vote, Mikey can't ) out of 45.


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## Edward Campbell (6 Nov 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I hate to keep reminding everyone, but Doug came in second with a very respectable vote total, Rob won his election and another Ford was also elected to a trustee position.
> 
> "Mayor of all the people" is a nice title, something like "Admiral of the Ocean Sea", but politicians need to find a compelling narrative and sell it to more people than any of the competition. Ontario's Liberal party and their union allies managed to totally clean everyone else's clock (including the taxpayers) by fear mongering, transferring people's attention from the very real scandals, massive debt and inept economic performance of the last decade to their narrative of what *might* happen under a PCPO government, demonstrating the principle in action.
> 
> The Fords have chosen a populist narrative standing against the political establishment (yes, you constantly remind us the Fords are a rich and connected family as well), and used it well. How well it can translate outside of Toronto is something that has to be tested, but I suspect Doug has been putting out feelers already and seems to like what he has seen, otherwise he would never have started talking about provincial politics.




Populism can, and does work, as the old _CCF_ showed in the 1930s, 40s and 50s, as Preston Manning showed, again, in 1993, when he, effectively, destroyed the old _PC Party of Canada_ and led 50+ _Reform_ MPs onto Parliament Hill, and as the Fords have shown, in Toronto, in past decade.


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## mariomike (6 Nov 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> <snip> and as the Fords have shown, in Toronto, in past decade.



Globe and Mail:

"In desperation, Doug Ford stoops to populist pandering":
 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/in-desperation-doug-ford-stoops-to-populist-pandering/article20818078/

"Not even under his brother Rob has Toronto seen a display of populism as crude as the one being put on by candidate Doug Ford."

Doug handing out $20 bills to constituents:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ckIcOiJyH4


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## Kirkhill (6 Nov 2014)

And yet another demonstration of inflation....

Used to cost $2,  along with a horse or a hooker.


----------



## mariomike (12 Nov 2014)

Politics aside, as a matter of public safety, it was one year ago ( Nov 15, 2013 )  that council voted to take away Rob's power during a State of Emergency and transfer it to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly. 

The vote was 41-2. Rob and Doug were the two who voted "No".

A State of Emergency would place Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly in control. Kelly, not Ford, would exercise all authority normally delegated to council for up to 30 days after the emergency declaration. 

This order remains in effect until November 30, 2014, when Rob's term expires.

This is the Emergency Plan:
http://www1.toronto.ca/City%20Of%20Toronto/Office%20of%20Emergency%20Management/Files/pdf/E/emergency_plan.pdf

One-third of Canada"s population is located within a 160 km radius of Toronto.


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## mariomike (15 Nov 2014)

I took a look at the statistics from previous city elections in comparison to this one.

Ford got 34% ( 33.73% to be exact ). David Miller and Mel Lastman both won re-election with 57% and 80% respectively.

Ford was lower than Smitherman ( 36% ) in the 2010 mayoral election, and lower than John Tory ( 38% ) in the 2003 mayoral election.

The Fords were the incumbents. With the exception of one, every incumbent councillor who ran for re-election got voted back in. 

The Fords lost with a lesser second place showing in percentage of vote than George Smitherman, David Miller or John Tory ( when he lost the 2003 mayoral election to Mayor Miller ), Mel Lastman, Barbara Hall or June Rowlands 

before her. 

Ford got the lowest percentage of vote for any administration losing their attempt for a second term since at least the 1980s ( that was as far back as I bothered to look ). 

Global News:
"One major change since the 2010 election is income: Four years ago, there wasn’t a major correlation between income and Ford support. This year Ford voters were much more likely to have lower incomes than others."
http://globalnews.ca/news/1652571/ford-nation-2014-15-things-demographics-tell-us-about-toronto-voters/

18 Jul 2014 
Nick Kouvalis:
"Rob Ford will run & win in Ward 2 - Doug Ford will run & lose the Mayor's race.  You heard it here 1st."
https://twitter.com/NickKouvalis/status/490243024547348480

Nick Kouvalis was the campaign manager in 2010 for Rob Ford. In the 2014 election, he supported John Tory.


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## mariomike (27 Nov 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> How well it can translate outside of Toronto is something that has to be tested, but I suspect Doug has been putting out feelers already and seems to like what he has seen, otherwise he would never have started talking about provincial politics.



Doug called a press conference today at Deco to announce he will not be running for the Ontario PC Leadership.


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## mariomike (18 Mar 2016)

Update on medical condition,

National Post
March 17, 2016 

"Rob Ford’s office refutes online rumours of his death"
http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/rob-ford-is-still-alive-former-mayors-office-refutes-online-rumours

CP24
March 18, 2016 
Rob Ford under 24-hour medical supervision after chemo fails
"Toronto city councillor and former mayor Rob Ford is under 24-hour medical supervision after a recent chemotherapy treatment did not work, a source tells CP24.
Ford’s family has been summoned to be by his side at Mt. Sinai Hospital, and doctors are working to determine if the 46-year-old is healthy enough to undergo more treatment.
Ford was admitted to Mt. Sinai Hospital in late February for continued treatment of several tumours located on his bladder."
http://www.cp24.com/news/rob-ford-under-24-hour-medical-supervision-after-chemo-fails-1.2822767


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## jollyjacktar (18 Mar 2016)

Not a Ford fan, but I do wish him well in this.


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## vonGarvin (18 Mar 2016)

I had no idea that he was this ill. I pray for him and his family.


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## Edward Campbell (18 Mar 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Not a Ford fan, but I do wish him well in this.




Exactly. It must be possible to disagree, even vehemently, with someone but, at the same time, wish them well when they fight a dreadful disease. Get well soon, Mr Ford.


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## The Bread Guy (18 Mar 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Not a Ford fan, but I do wish him well in this.


Same - good luck


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## Old Sweat (18 Mar 2016)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Same - good luck



As do I. Get well Mr Ford.


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## Danjanou (22 Mar 2016)

Rob Ford has passed away 

http://www.cp24.com/former-mayor-rob-ford-dead-at-age-46-1.2827463

RIP


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## my72jeep (22 Mar 2016)

Rest in peace.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (22 Mar 2016)

A very nice piece written by a former staffer.....

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/03/22/rob-ford-gave-his-all-to-toronto

Rob Ford gave his all to Toronto   
 By Adrienne Batra , Toronto Sun  


Rob Ford, 1969-2016
You either loved Rob Ford, or you hated him.

On some days, I did both.
When I was his director of communications during the 2010 election, and subsequently his press secretary until December 2011, there were days when I wanted to wring his girthsome neck with my tiny little hands.
And others when I wanted to give him a big hug.

That was Rob. That was how he lived.
That was how he governed as mayor of Toronto from 2010 to 2014.
He was never shy about attracting controversy – as the whole world eventually came to know.

But what a lot of people don’t know – or don’t want to remember – is that Rob Ford, first as a councillor and then as mayor, gave everything he had to his constituents when they asked for his help.
The mom who couldn’t get a pothole fixed outsider her house had a friend in Rob Ford. Ditto the dad who called in to complain his garbage hadn’t been picked up.
Ford, first as a councillor, and later as mayor, would assemble the necessary staff to fix the problem — which often drove the staff crazy — and get it done.

It all sounds so simple, but these are the things that matter to ordinary people in their daily lives.
And because it mattered to them, it mattered to Ford, who wanted to matter to the people who elected him.
It was from their ranks that Ford’s mayoral campaign was able to muster a 3,000-strong volunteer army, when no one from Toronto’s Conservative establishment would step up to help.

Governing Toronto wasn’t easy – because Rob didn’t want it to be.
He wanted to poke his finger in the eye of the establishment, including many of his fellow councillors, whom Ford viewed as derelict in their duties and complacent in their jobs.
He was determined to hold staff and politicians accountable.

The media, and many politicians, made fun of Ford for answering his own phone – because apparently politicians don’t do that.
He was berated for never spending his taxpayer allocated office allowance.
He was mocked for taking calls from – and helping – the constituents of his fellow councillors.

Ford didn’t care. Whenever his colleagues would drop the ball on what Ford considered to be the most important part of their job — providing services to taxpayers — he picked it up and ran with it down the field.
That’s why so many people — “the Ford nation” — were so loyal to him.
It was the deciding factor in his 2010 mayoral victory.

Ford has his personal demons — drug and alcohol addiction — and they eventually overwhelmed him.
But anyone who has worked in politics, knows even the most savvy and polished politicians have skeletons in their closets.
None of us is perfect and heaven knows Rob wasn’t perfect, which made working for him a white-knuckle job, not for the faint of heart.
On any given day, we were accused of unsuccessfully trying to cover up the fact he was out of his depth, or of being the most brilliant and diabolical political minds of our generation.

What we really did was to work hard, which on some days meant trying to run the city with an absentee mayor.
We counted the votes before we went to council on any big issue. We consulted city executive.
Rob knew in advance what the vote would be on any major issue at council, win or lose.

He had many accomplishments. Killing the car tax, outsourcing garbage collection west of Yonge St., four-year labour deals with the city’s unions, without a garbage strike. Ford saved taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars.
He’s been called a lot of things -- a populist, a conservative, a radical – and he was all of them in part.

But ultimately, Ford was a political pragmatist who simply didn’t give a damn
what anyone thought about him other than his constituents.

It was that gumption that endeared him to hundreds of thousands of Torontonians.
There will always be those who refuse to see Ford as anything more than an addict, a liar, a racist, a homophobe and a bully.
But none of that accurately describes Rob Ford.

He was the only councillor that held town hall meeting for Toronto Community Housing Corp. residents.
The only one who went into their apartments to see for himself the often horrible conditions they were living in.
The only one who listened to their concerns and tried to help, whether it meant getting repairs done or finding them a new home.
He cared about people. He once gave me $20 for cab fare when we were at a campaign event on the other side of the city because I’d left everything at the office, saying he didn’t think, “any young lady in Toronto should be without some way of getting home.”

Rob Ford was often the only politician on council who really gave a damn about how the public’s money was being spent.
He was deeply flawed. He lied about his drug and alcohol addictions, picked fights when he didn’t have to and destroyed his political effectiveness through his outrageous personal behaviour.
But he loved Toronto. Even when we was hurting himself, he never stopped thinking and caring about the people of this city.

As controversial as he was was in life, let him now rest, in peace.


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## jollyjacktar (22 Mar 2016)

Sorry to hear that cancer won this fight.


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## mariomike (22 Mar 2016)

I voted for him. 

Politics aside, I must admit to feeling a sense of relief when they took away his power to govern the city during a state of emergency.

RIP


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## a_majoor (23 Mar 2016)

Posted in the Politics in 2016 thread before seeing this one:

http://spectator.org/blog/65854/rob-ford-rip



> *Rob Ford, R.I.P.*
> By Aaron Goldstein on 3.22.16 | 12:46PM
> Video of PZT-idGEJ3U
> 
> ...


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## mariomike (23 Mar 2016)

Reply #459 
"Nevertheless, it appeared Ford would be re-elected in 2014 when he was diagnosed with cancer that fall."

That's interesting.

TORONTO September 8th, 2014 ‐ In a random sampling of public opinion taken by
the Forum Poll™ among 1069 Toronto voters, 4‐in‐10 will vote John Tory (40%),
while fewer than 3‐in‐10 will vote Rob Ford (28%). 
http://poll.forumresearch.com/data/TO%20Horserace%20News%20Release%20(2014%2009%2008)%20Forum%20Research.pdf

Sep 10 2014
A second consecutive poll shows John Tory with a big lead over Rob Ford and Olivia Chow. 
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/toronto2014election/2014/09/10/toronto_election_poll_tory_leads_big_as_chow_plummets_in_scarborough.html

On September 12, 2014, Rob Ford withdrew his candidacy for mayor.


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## Danjanou (23 Mar 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Reply #459
> "Nevertheless, it appeared Ford would be re-elected in 2014 when he was diagnosed with cancer that fall."
> 
> That's interesting.
> ...



Looking at the final reuslts 40% to 37% Tory over Doug would suggest a healthy Rob may have won had he not dropped out and had his brother run. We will never know now.


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## mariomike (23 Mar 2016)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Looking at the final reuslts 40% to 37% Tory over Doug would suggest a healthy Rob may have won had he not dropped out and had his brother run. We will never know now.



"John Tory was elected Toronto’s next mayor Monday, beating out Doug Ford by a 6% margin. Tory claimed more than 40% of the vote while Ford took in about 34%."
http://news.nationalpost.com/toronto/toronto-election-results-2014-a-ward-by-ward-breakdown-of-the-vote


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## Danjanou (24 Mar 2016)

Could have sworn I put the link in the earlier post

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_mayoral_election,_2014

Candidate	Popular vote	Percentage	
John Tory	394,775		40.28%
Doug Ford	330,610		33.73%
Olivia Chow	226,879		23.15%

40.28% is technically "more" than 40% but not much 8)


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## Kilo_302 (24 Mar 2016)

A couple articles that deal directly with Ford's legacy. Worth reading.

http://torontoist.com/2016/03/373870/



> When a controversial figure passes away, there is inevitably an effort to downplay the negative aspects of what made them who they are. This is a problem, because when someone as controversial as Rob Ford dies, we lose the opportunity to discuss who they really were, and to fairly evaluate their impact. In the case of Rob Ford, who always valued honesty over manners, this matters. Because Rob Ford was loathed, by a great many people, and not out of a fit of pique.
> This legacy deserves to be understood and remembered.
> 
> 
> ...




http://tvo.org/article/current-affairs/shared-values/andray-domise-the-rob-ford-legacy-that-many-refuse-to-confront



> the fall of 2014, while campaigning against the Fords for councillor of Toronto’s Ward 2, I knocked on the door of a lady I’ll call Carmen. By this time the 2014 mayoral race had taken a turn for the bizarre, even by the standards of Rob Ford’s four years as mayor. For the first half of the campaign, Rob Ford’s nephew, Michael, was running for the seat until Rob was hospitalized in September with an abdominal tumour. Michael withdrew from the council race, and Rob subsequently withdrew from the mayoral track to campaign in Ward 2, the neighbourhood he'd represented for 12 years as a city councillor. In order to win the Ward 2 council race, I would have to defeat the mayor of Toronto.
> 
> At first Carmen refused to open the door, so I stood there in the hallway taking questions through a peep hole in patois-accented English about improving public housing. Eventually Carmen recognized my voice from a radio interview she’d heard, and invited me into her living room for a chat. I expected she was going tell me a story about meeting the ward’s longtime incumbent, Rob Ford, as many working-class Caribbean residents I’d spoken with in the area had. That’s precisely what she did, but her story was far from what I expected.
> 
> ...


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## Danjanou (24 Mar 2016)

Hmm big surprise there Kilo, two left wing oh sorry progressive sites post not to nioce things about Ford's legacy. The comments alone are telling.


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## Kilo_302 (24 Mar 2016)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Hmm big surprise there Kilo, two left wing oh sorry progressive sites post not to nioce things about Ford's legacy. The comments alone are telling.



This thread is to do with all things Rob Ford, not just his death. Perhaps there should be a thread for condolences only. I don't think it makes sense to forgo valid criticism of his politics just because he has died of cancer. These articles aren't crowing about his death, they are reminding people to think about what he did with his political career.

Now if you want to be offended about something, look at the piece in the Toronto Sun that features his son titled "Rob Ford's son praises 'the best dad.'" Now THAT is distasteful. It looks like it's been pulled down, but I would argue using a child like that while he is grieving and probably not old enough to understand what is happening is pretty grotesque.


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## mariomike (24 Mar 2016)

Although I was pensioned off by the City, I voted for Rob because he said this,

"And if they're going to make a bit more money for doing it – I have never had a person come up and say, ‘Rob, I object to paying paramedics, firefighters or police more money.’ This is where the money should be spent, and I have no problem paying our officers, or our firefighters or our paramedics good money to do a job."

Councillor Rob Ford, CP24 mayoral debate. October 2010


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Mar 2016)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> This thread is to do with all things Rob Ford, not just his death. Perhaps there should be a thread for condolences only. I don't think it makes sense to forgo valid criticism of his politics just because he has died of cancer. These articles aren't crowing about his death, they are reminding people to think about what he did with his political career.
> 
> Now if you want to be offended about something, look at the piece in the Toronto Sun that features his son titled "Rob Ford's son praises 'the best dad.'" Now THAT is distasteful. It looks like it's been pulled down, but I would argue using a child like that while he is grieving and probably not old enough to understand what is happening is pretty grotesque.



Listen sunshine........'valid' to you does not mean it MUST be valid to myself or anyone else.   Couldn't just say "criticism" could you?     Nope, you just need to add a little snot-nosed smugness into your posts and then wonder why "normal, hard to piss off" folks like myself want to beat you with a tire iron sometimes.  [and don't think you're alone on that list]

Folks, there are discussions on whether the 'politics' forum is worth keeping and I, for one, very much enjoy reading this part of the website when the discussion is balanced, CIVIL, and comments added to the news links you post.
Thanks,
Bruce


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Mar 2016)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> This thread is to do with all things Rob Ford, not just his death. Perhaps there should be a thread for condolences only. I don't think it makes sense to forgo valid criticism of his politics just because he has died of cancer. These articles aren't crowing about his death, they are reminding people to think about what he did with his political career.
> 
> Now if you want to be offended about something, look at the piece in the Toronto Sun that features his son titled "Rob Ford's son praises 'the best dad.'" Now THAT is distasteful. It looks like it's been pulled down, but I would argue using a child like that while he is grieving and probably not old enough to understand what is happening is pretty grotesque.


http://www.torontosun.com/2016/03/24/rob-fords-son-praises-the--best-dad

I just read it.......found it touching actually.  [since they asked and did not 'ambush']


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## Kilo_302 (24 Mar 2016)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> http://www.torontosun.com/2016/03/24/rob-fords-son-praises-the--best-dad
> 
> I just read it.......found it touching actually.  [since they asked and did not 'ambush']



It looks like they edited it. They reached out for permission after they did the interview.

 Here's the original: http://m.torontosun.com/2016/03/23/rob-fords-son-praises-the-best-dad

At best, sloppy journalism. At worst, taking advantage of a child in grief. Either way it's inappropriate on the part of the journalist to interview a child without parents being present. What was that neighour thinking?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Mar 2016)

I disagree, though without more info, we'll never know stuff like maybe the young lad wanted to go out there and his Mother was understandably too tired/mourning/etc. to face the scrum, so gave the neighbour permission to do it for her.

Sounds like good therapy to help an 8 year old boy mourn his Father.  He certainly put some work into the poster.....


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## The Bread Guy (24 Mar 2016)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> This thread is to do with all things Rob Ford, not just his death. Perhaps there should be a thread for condolences only. I don't think it makes sense to forgo valid criticism of his politics just because he has died of cancer. These articles aren't crowing about his death, they are reminding people to think about what he did with his political career.


While some of the points you & the pieces raise may be valid, Kilo_302, I think it's a question of time and place.  We _*shouldn't*_ ignore the things we disagree with, but maybe there's a better time to discuss legacy than before the guy's even in the ground?  Or a better way?  If you're unhappy with how media covered something, there's a thread for that.  Attacking an alleged Paean after posting strong critiques makes one seem a bit "dancing on one's grave"-y.

As mentioned in other threads, it's not necessarily the "what" of what you have to share that folks don't like (although that's not zero), it's more often the "how" ...


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Mar 2016)

Rob Ford has died. He'll be missed by some but not by others. We'll let history decide where he ends up on the scale of life.

Nothing more to be accomplished here.

---Staff---


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## mariomike (27 Aug 2017)

I vote in Toronto elections, so this article in The New Yorker ( April 13, 2017 ) caught my eye.

Adding a few excerpts for reference,
http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/what-living-through-rob-ford-says-about-trump

"Rob Ford easily deflected his political failures and mounting scandals onto downtown “élites,” liberals, and the media, even when his culpability was shockingly obvious."

"(Ford) lied constantly and consistently and railed against the media and liberal élites. As one scandal led to another, he surrounded himself with cronies and family loyalists and, when truly tested, fell back on the flag-waving rallies that fired up his base."

"Ford speaking before a chanting crowd, taunting the media, exuberantly using the word “folks,” and lionizing the Ford family ( “Camelot in oversized T-shirts” )."

"Toronto’s inner suburbs were his Appalachia, less wealthy than the downtown core of the city, which served as his proxy for a sort of coastal élite."

"He effectively adopted this posture despite the fact that he inherited millions of dollars from his family"

"...he promised to stop the city’s “gravy train” of runaway spending, on behalf of the little guy."

"Ford set a tone of confrontation from Day One. His swearing-in ceremony was conducted by the hockey commentator Don Cherry, who wore a pink double-breasted paisley suit in mockery of the “left-wing pinkos” opposed to Ford; among these he included the city’s newspaper reporters, a group of people “that ride bicycles and everything,” Cherry said, implying a host of liberal sins. Like Trump, who called the press the “enemy of the American people,”.

"Efforts to debunk his lies were dismissed by Ford as nothing more than the jealous desperation of the liberal élites."

"The more Rob Ford’s lies were flagged and earnestly debunked, the more he was perceived as a straight shooter by his base. He hosted campaign-style rallies and the annual Ford Fest barbecue, where fans could grab a free burger, a T-shirt, or a coveted Ford bobblehead. Ford’s foibles were, to them, a big middle finger to Toronto’s status quo."

"He was shameless, and that shamelessness coated him like Teflon."

"...a Kafkaesque world where the fact-checkers have endless work but few are paying attention."

"...voters who put him into office were ashamed to admit they’d done so and did what they could to right their mistake."


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## mariomike (11 Sep 2017)

Sept. 8, 2017

“Robbie, this one is going to be for you,” Ford told a huge crowd at the annual “Ford Fest” party in their mother’s sprawling Etobicoke backyard.
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/09/08/doug-ford-will-run-for-mayor-in-2018-rematch.html
“I will be running for mayor of Toronto,” he said to deafening cheers from “Ford Nation” fans.


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## observor 69 (11 Sep 2017)

Doug Ford; copy Trump's political style and platform and run on that. 
Or vice versa.


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## mariomike (12 Sep 2017)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Doug Ford; copy Trump's political style and platform and run on that.
> Or vice versa.



My guess  is for that reason Ontario Conservatives did not encourage DoFo to run for Etobicoke North MPP,

“We don’t need him talking about how great Donald Trump is in the middle of the campaign; that’s not what Patrick ( Brown ) is about,” said one wary PC insider, speaking on condition of anonymity in order to discuss internal deliberations.
https://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2017/08/31/are-pcs-looking-to-talk-the-doug-ford-out-of-running-to-be-an-mpp.html

Happier days, Rob and Doug go Hollywood!  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HodnkQRnvvs

Kevin Spacey? "Wouldn't know him if I ran him over."  

For anyone who has never experienced Ford Fest fun,
https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/3b7jdv/we-went-to-ford-fest-2014-457


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## jollyjacktar (10 Apr 2018)

This should be interesting to pull off.  Damien Lewis who portrayed Major Winters in BoB and starred in Homeland is taking on the roll (quite literally) of the late TO Mayor Rob Ford.  I look forwards to his take on Rob.



> Break out the fat-suit: Ripped Damian Lewis will play obese, crack-smoking former Toronto Mayor Rob Ford in new movie
> By Dailymail.com Reporter
> 15:58 EDT 10 Apr 2018, updated 17:24 EDT 10 Apr 2018
> 
> ...


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## garb811 (10 Apr 2018)

If only Chris Farley were alive to play this role.


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## jollyjacktar (10 Apr 2018)

Ford Nation is venting it's spleen in the comments section of the story.   ;D. Fun to read the meltdowns.


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## mariomike (10 Apr 2018)

>  the new thriller film 'Run This Town'.

"Run this town"? Not really. They couldn't fire Rob. Because, unlike an employee, he could not be fired. He was a politician. 

So, they took his power and gave it to Deputy Mayor Norm Kelly. Norm Kelly was really the unsung hero of the 2010-2014 era. Rob's only term as mayor. Rob got the headlines, and the Kimmel show. But, Norm ran this town.
That's Rob and Norm ( back to camera ) in the attached pic.



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Ford Nation is venting it's spleen in the comments section of the story.



Maybe Ford Nation will make their comeback soon, and "Run this province"? 

Deja vu all over again.


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## jollyjacktar (11 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> >  the new thriller film 'Run This Town'.
> Maybe Ford Nation will make their comeback soon, and "Run this province"?
> 
> Deja vu all over again.



The next few months will be interesting, that's for sure.   :nod:


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## mariomike (11 Apr 2018)

I'm looking forward to the re-enactment of the Steak Queen video in the upcoming bio-pic,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqUhMm9V5Yg

This is Ward 2, baby!  

QUOTE

C**ksuckers. Fuckin’ Chief Blair and them all. Cha, man. They chase me around for five months, man. Bumbaclot man. I said, me and him, ya raasclat bumbaclot.

Leave me alone, man. They got five months man, and then trying to tell me ‘well, we’re counter-surveilling the guy.’ You know what I mean? He’s hiding here, I’m’a hide here. I’m’a—oh, we don’t—f*ck off.

You know how much money that costs, man? I said bro, just cut something, ‘no man, no money man.’ Cha. Ah, Bumbaclot, man. I said ‘you know what? You raasclat, bumbaclot. I swear to God, man, honestly man. Serious shit, man. Serious shit, bro.

Who goes into THC? Who’s going into Jamestown, Jane and Finch and then Malvern on the—them fucks—you know what I see, manbro? Shit like … null

END QUOTE


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## jollyjacktar (24 Apr 2018)

Photos of Damien Lewis all done up as Rob Ford here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5652477/Damian-Lewis-UNRECOGNIZABLE-Rob-Ford.html


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## mariomike (24 Apr 2018)

Rob was a character who, if he did not exist, could not be imagined.


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## mariomike (21 Dec 2019)

The cartoon war in Radio Chatter reminded me of the political process for removal of power here in Canada.

eg: There was a lack of confidence in the ability to govern - especially during a state of emergency - of the mayor of Canada's largest city a few years ago. 

He wasn't an employee, so he couldn't be fired. There had to be a vote.

Fortunately, the vote was non-partisan. So, party politics were not a factor. The vote passed almost unanimously. 

To say the individual was displeased would be an understatement. 

Not sure if there are any other examples of removal of power to govern during a state of emergency - while keeping the individual on the payroll and political figurehead - have happened anywhere else in Canada. 

Edit grammar.


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## Kilted (21 Dec 2019)

I'm guessing that you are referring to Rob Ford.


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## mariomike (21 Dec 2019)

Kilted said:
			
		

> I'm guessing that you are referring to Rob Ford.



The one and only.


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## Remius (27 Dec 2019)

Darn.

I saw the title of the thread and for a second thought it was going to about the crystal chamber found in Superman's fortress of solitude that shoots red sun radiation to remove powers. 

oh well...


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## mariomike (27 Dec 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> I saw the title of the thread and for a second thought it was going to about the crystal chamber found in Superman's fortress of solitude that shoots red sun radiation to remove powers.



Not Superman. More like Captain Queeg.


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