# Putin: NATO flexing muscles at border



## Mike Baker (20 Nov 2007)

*LINK*



> MOSCOW - President Vladimir Putin accused NATO of "muscle-flexing" near Russia's frontiers Tuesday and promised that Moscow would suspend its obligations under a key European arms treaty.
> 
> Putin's angry statement came amid tensions between Russia and the West, and it reflected the increasingly assertive posture taken by the Kremlin ahead of Dec. 2 parliamentary elections.
> 
> "In violation of previous agreements, military resources of NATO members are being built up next to our borders," Putin told a meeting of military officials. "Of course, we cannot allow ourselves to remain indifferent to this obvious muscle-flexing."


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## Dissident (20 Nov 2007)

Say again, over.

I'm not in the know, so I will first ask, is NATO doing any such thing?


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## TN2IC (20 Nov 2007)

Dissident said:
			
		

> Say again, over.
> 
> I'm not in the know, so I will first ask, is NATO doing any such thing?



Not the last time I check. Did someone dust off CFB Lahr?


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## aesop081 (20 Nov 2007)

Putin has already forgotten that a few months ago, he was flexing HIS military muscle at the UK, The USA and Canada........

Pot, kettle, black.....


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## midget-boyd91 (20 Nov 2007)

Geez, NATO's having enough trouble flexing muscles and massing in Afghanistan. And now NATO is supposed to mass on the Russian border _too_?? My oh my, there sure is a lot expected of the alliance these days.


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## George Wallace (20 Nov 2007)

Let's see.

All his Satellite States that he hoped to fight in and keep NATO out of his homeland are all trying to join the EU and become members of NATO.

I supposed NATO Troops on exchange Trg in Poland, the Ukraine, Romania, etc. would seem like NATO is closing in on him.


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## Bane (20 Nov 2007)

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20071101faessay86603/dimitri-k-simes/losing-russia.html


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## JAWS228 (21 Nov 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I supposed NATO Troops on exchange Trg in Poland, the Ukraine, Romania, etc. would seem like NATO is closing in on him.



I would think that the planned construction of permanent military sites (missile defence shield) in the eastern bloc countries would also give him that idea; however it is a far cry from "flexing military muscle" IMHO.

Or it could just be more chest-thumping for the upcoming parliamentary elections.


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## Kirkhill (21 Nov 2007)

He and his buddies had 60 years to make nice with the neighbours.   You would think that in that time they have might have made some friends so they didn't have to be so nervous.  

I am reminded of the saying "Be careful whose fingers you step on as you go up the ladder. You are likely to meet them on the way back down."

Having said that I think electioneering, and personal survival, has a lot to do with this.


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## Mike Baker (21 Nov 2007)

Another Link



> MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- President Vladimir Putin harshly assailed his opponents and accused the West of meddling in Russian politics, telling a parliamentary campaign rally Wednesday that opponents at home and abroad want to weaken the country.
> 
> Putin's strongly worded attack on his critics came as he seeks to secure a high turnout and strong support for the dominant main pro-Kremlin party in parliamentary elections Dec 2. Putin is leading United Russia's ticket in what is widely seen a maneuver to retain a grip on power after he steps down next spring.
> 
> ...


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## geo (21 Nov 2007)

If I recall, the republic of Georgia struck a number of deals with NATO.
Russia would like Georgia back......

Any NATO presence in Georgia could be seen as a challenge to Putin


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## George Wallace (21 Nov 2007)

Wonder if he will someday come to the conclusion "If you can't beat them; join them."?


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## geo (21 Nov 2007)

With all the western European countries on the hook to Russia for their Oil supplies, why would Putin want to flex his own muscles.... Have Gazprom flex it's sphincter muscle and shut down oil export for a day or two ... 

We haven,t heard the last from Putin, Russia AND Gazprom.


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## Bane (21 Nov 2007)

Much of Putin's consternation is the result of US intransigence. I think a change of president(s) has the potential to improve the relationship vis-a-vis the US at least.  
That said, as others have either stated or alluded to, it is critical to keep in mind the domestic forces acting here.  Being on the outside it easy to see everything throught ye olde International Relations Goggles --->  8)


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## Kirkhill (21 Nov 2007)

Methinks someone's International Relations Goggles come with Bush Polarizing Filters.


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## Bane (21 Nov 2007)

I like to keep harmful debris out of my eyes.  ;D

On a slightly more serious note; Bush policies draw heat internationally, even 'W' himself would likely agree with this on some level.  I'm not making a judgement on them, though I do have an opinion, his polices have aggrevated many.  Putin is also no angel. New leaders with a different attitudes and ideas can change things, and next year both nations will have new leaders nominally.


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## kilekaldar (23 Nov 2007)

Smells like the Russian leadership smells weakness and dissent in NATO and are trying to exploit it. 
Let's face it, the Americans are heavily commited in Iraq and draining them militarily and economically. NATO has proen less then commited and united in the it's first real war in Afghanistan. Perhaps the Russian leaders feel for the first time in a long time that they can press west and not have anyone push back.

Wonder if they'll to invade a former Sorviet SSR in the region just to intimidate the others?


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## JBoyd (23 Nov 2007)

kilekaldar said:
			
		

> Wonder if they'll to invade a former Sorviet SSR in the region just to intimidate the others?



well considering the recent attempted coup in Georgia that seemed to originate somewhere with some people in Moscow.... I wouldnt say that it is outside the realm of possiblities.


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## Flip (23 Nov 2007)

> Perhaps the Russian leaders feel for the first time in a long time that they can press west and not have anyone push back.



I think it has more to do with the home audience.
Give the west a hard time = become a political rock star.

Create an fictitious threat and rule Russia for life.

If 40k NATO troops can succeed if Afghanistan where 300k Soviet failed......
well just lets say the Russians are a little tired of not feeling good about
themselves.
(never mind that what NATO is doing is completely different)
( I'm sure the distiction is invisible to Russians)

As usual just seeing if this sticks to the wall...... ;D


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## Kirkhill (19 Dec 2007)

Not impossible that the Russians could be feeling surrounded.



> *Japan shoots down its first ballistic missile*
> By Isambard Wilkinson
> Last Updated: 3:06am GMT 19/12/2007
> 
> ...





> Russia threatens to target US missile shield
> By Harry de Quetteville and Isambard Wilkinson
> Last Updated: 3:05am GMT 19/12/2007
> 
> ...




Interesting that China is a lot more accepting of Japan's capabilities - Perhaps they are more concerned about N. Korea.


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## Mike Baker (25 Dec 2007)

And on another note: Russia successfully tests new ICBM



> The RS-24 missile was launched from the Plesetsk launch facility in northern Russia and its test warheads successfully hit designated targets on the Kura testing range on the Kamchatka Peninsula some 4,340 miles east, Strategic Missile Forces spokesman Alexander Vovk told The Associated Press.
> 
> Vovk said that the missile carried multiple test warheads, but refused to say how many. The Interfax news agency said the RS-24 is capable of carrying at least three warheads.


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## NL_engineer (25 Dec 2007)

> Russia has threatened to target two proposed American bases in Europe with its nuclear missiles if the Pentagon pressed ahead with its plans for a missile defence shield.
> 
> In an escalation of the Cold War-style threats favoured by President Vladimir Putin, the general in charge of Russia's ballistic arsenal said that he could target the bases in Poland and the Czech Republic that will host the missile-interceptor shield if America insists on building them.



And what does that lead to....  : the Cold war all over again. 

lets threaten a Texan with weapons  : that is always a smart choice  :; especially when this one wants to invade Iran and North Korea

just my 2 cents


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## Mike Baker (25 Dec 2007)

Heh, I like this one:



> the general in charge of Russia's ballistic arsenal said that he could target the bases in Poland and the Czech Republic that will host the missile-interceptor shield if America insists on building them.


So what he is saying is that if the Americans build this missile shield, they'll destroy it with their own nuclear missiles.


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## geo (25 Dec 2007)

All the russians have to do is cut off the Polish & Czeck oil deliveries and they'll take apart the missile shield on their own.


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## Mike Baker (26 Dec 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> All the russians have to do is cut off the Polish & Czeck oil deliveries and they'll take apart the missile shield on their own.


Never thought about it that way, Geo. But then again, the U.S. would probably find a way to get them fuel, and if not, bye bye missile defence in Europe, or at least in Poland and the Czech Republic.


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## geo (28 Dec 2007)

Realpolitik.

The US can weigh in all they want.  As a net importer of oil the US is in no position to provide supplies to a country blocaded on their insistance.  If Russia wants to be a party pooper, the US will be hard pressed to respond in a timely manner.... IMHO


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## midget-boyd91 (8 Feb 2008)

Well, Mr.Putin says we're now in a "New Arms Race"
Picked up at bbc.co.uk news
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7234817.stm



> _*Putin vows 'arms race' response *_
> *Russia's President Vladimir
> Putin says the world is engaged
> in a new arms race and Nato is
> ...



Midget


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## geo (8 Feb 2008)

Gotta remember, it's an election year in Russia as well

Rattling sabres in Russia is good for those comrades who still dream of days gone by when mention of the Soviet hordes was enough to make the world's capitalists quake in their boots & $h!t in their pants....


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## midget-boyd91 (8 Feb 2008)

Thinking out loud...
What bothers me is what will happen if/when the Russian military is revitalized. The comrades you metioned who dream of the glory days could very likely demend that they use their newly rediscovered powers. I doubt very much they are stupid enough to try starting things with NATO... but Georgia isn't on their buddy list. Or what about Chechnya? Would the new strength of the Russian military be used to finally gain control of Chechnya? Like I said, that's mostly me thinking aloud.

Midget


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## TangoTwoBravo (8 Feb 2008)

I think that the Russians already reasserted themselves in Chechnya back in 1999/2000. We shall see the fate of the former Soviet republics that have existed as an inverse function of Moscow's power.


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## geo (8 Feb 2008)

Putin and his comrades have seen what flexing their economic power can provide....
For the most part, they don't need the military to face off against the West - all they need to do is turn off the taps & western europe will freeze in the dark


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## NL_engineer (8 Feb 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Putin and his comrades have seen what flexing their economic power can provide....
> For the most part, they don't need the military to face off against the West - all they need to do is turn off the taps & western europe will freeze in the dark



Think of what that could lead to.  Western Europe starts shopping in the Middle East, or that big three letter W word.


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