# Finding history in the bottom drawer



## OpieRWestmrR (17 Apr 2009)

This week at work an elderly lady sent in a picture postcard of a Great War digger, looking to pass it on to the soldier's descendants. The pic was taken in Jersey (Channel island) while the man was on leave in 1917 and it's remarkably clear - superb condition. The lady found the card in an old piece of furniture. The soldier was no relation and she doesn't know his fate. 
It's coming up to Anzac Day (25 April) so I was able to help out. Any other time of the year would have been problematic - newspapers don't have space to spare any more. 
This put me in mind of how difficult it is to collect unique historical material from people who simply don't know what they've got. Any thoughts on effective ways to persuade the public to volunteer documents, etc, of historical value?


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## Michael OLeary (17 Apr 2009)

You can make an appeal, but those who care enough to look for and bring in things will often have an attachment to the items, no matter how tenuous.  That's how you get people turning in WWII greatcoats and other mundane items, and they don't understand why a museum doesn't want to display it forever so they can bring the family to see it.

For those who don't really care, it's difficult to get them to even dig the stuff out.  Usually it comes out when they're looking for ways to thin out their junk.  

The best general approach is a semi-regular appeal that might be remembered at the right time.

Perhaps the best targeted approach would be a visible and publicized program where military museums across the country cooperated to sent artifacts outside their own regimental or local themes to the most appropriate museums for each out-of-place artifact.  Such a scheme, effectively advertised as a joint museum service to the public, might be an effective lever to pry more stuff loose as it would ensure the item went to the most appropriate museum which would be most likely to display it.


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## OpieRWestmrR (17 Apr 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> You can make an appeal, but those who care enough to look for and bring in things will often have an attachment to the items, no matter how tenuous.  That's how you get people turning in WWII greatcoats and other mundane items, and they don't understand why a museum doesn't want to display it forever so they can bring the family to see it.



Sure, but aren't the gems worth the awkward explanations on the mundane stuff? My brother works for a museum in White Rock BC which had its centenary in 2007. For the centenary project he interviewed dozens of local notables including Walter Thompson, the Pathfinder pilot. My brother doesn't share my military interest but during the interview he grasped who Thompson was and asked whether he would be willing to let the museum have his log book for a display. Thompson refused. He has since died and I hope my brother has the courage to ask his widow for the log book again at an appropriate time. 

Had he not sought Thompson out for an interview my brother wouldn't know that book exists. Thompson wasn't going to let it go while he was alive and as far as I know he made no provision for any museum to have his papers. Sort of begs the question: how can we locate vital stuff without encouraging people to bring everything in for knowledgeable folk to evaluate?

I think you're absolutely right about the national campaign, adequately promoted. Would any government fund it?


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## daftandbarmy (17 Apr 2009)

The big motivator for the general public can generally be divided into two categories: fame and fortune. If you can tap into those key motivators you can get alot done.

One way to handle it might be to set upa non-porfit organization, perhaps through a regimental association or something, and do some fundraising for $ to purchase military memoribilia for the regimental museum. There may be government grants that you can resource for these projects that you can claim under NP status.

The regimental honouraries could help with generating interst from the community. For example, I know that your HCol is a pretty good promoter and could go to the mayor of New West with just about any any idea and get a sympathetic hearing.


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## mariomike (17 Apr 2009)

OpieRWestmrR said:
			
		

> > Walter Thompson, the Pathfinder pilot.
> > willing to let the museum have his log book
> > Thompson refused.
> > how can we locate vital stuff



You don't need their log books. If MIA/KIA the RCAF destroyed them. Air Force Forms 540 and 541 were completed for every operational flight of every single aircraft. The a/c serial, names of crew, bomb load and take off time were recorded. If the a/c returned, its landing time and a summary of the crew's experiences during the flight were recorded. Squadrons made composite reports of the crew's flights. Groups then consolidated the squadron reports. Bomber Command HQ then produced a report of every raid. 
It is unlikely that any wartime operations were documented so comprehensively as those of Bomber Command. The records were transferred to the Public records Office PRO in 1971 and have been freely available to reseachers since then. 
When that is done, get this book:
http://www.bomber-command.info/bcwd.htm
Walter Thompson bio:
http://airforce.ca/awards.php?search=1&keyword=thompson&page=3&mem=lastname&type=rcaf
His book:
http://www.amazon.com/Lancaster-Berlin-Walter-Thompson/dp/090757937X


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## ExSarge (18 Apr 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> You don't need their log books. If MIA/KIA the RCAF destroyed them.



Not always, at least not in all of Bomber Command. An Uncle of mine was lost over Germany, on a 1000 plane raid while serving with a RNZAF squadron. The family received his log book with the following notation in red ink "failed to return" signed by the Squadron Intel Officer. This book is to be donated to the War Museum on my death.


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## mariomike (18 Apr 2009)

ExSarge said:
			
		

> Not always, at least not in all of Bomber Command. An Uncle of mine was lost over Germany, on a 1000 plane raid while serving with a RNZAF squadron. The family received his log book with the following notation in red ink "failed to return" signed by the Squadron Intel Officer. This book is to be donated to the War Museum on my death.



Thank you for that information. 
At any rate, with, or without, the log books, every operational sortie made by every crew is on the Form 540/541's which are secure in the Public Records Office. 
We received photocopies. It was rather expensive because my uncle, although only 21, was already on his second tour.  Having survived the main air war over Germany, only to be shot down by a night-fighter a month and a half after D-Day.
I was in contact with the survivors of the other crewmen ( all were KIA ) and none of them received the log books. So, you are indeed very fortunate. I suppose it depended on the sqaudron. 576 Squadron in this case. 
http://elshamwolds.50g.com/


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## mariomike (18 Apr 2009)

ExSarge said:
			
		

> a 1000 plane raid while serving with a RNZAF squadron.



Do you mind if I ask which squadron? The only RNZAF squadron in Bomber Command that I am aware of is No.487:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/h487.html


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## ExSarge (19 Apr 2009)

I can't give you a definitive answer yet. I'm in the middle of a house renovation and the log along with my other books is packed away for safekeeping. Give me a couple of weeks and I will have an answer for you. If it helps, he was flying Wellingtons and lost over Cologne. The family heard after the war his A/C was shot down by flak. He is known to have exited the aircraft uninjured. That’s the last time he was ever seen, the presumption is he was beaten to death by a civilian mob. Other A/C crew suffered similar fates on this and other raids on German cities.


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## mariomike (19 Apr 2009)

ExSarge said:
			
		

> If it helps, he was flying Wellingtons and lost over Cologne. The family heard after the war his A/C was shot down by flak. He is known to have exited the aircraft uninjured. That’s the last time he was ever seen, the presumption is he was beaten to death by a civilian mob. Other A/C crew suffered similar fates on this and other raids on German cities.



Bailing out of a flaming bomber must have been like jumping from the pan into the fire. Sometimes literally.
It was open season if they survived the crash:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/imt/ftp.py?imt//tgmwc/tgmwc-03/tgmwc-03-21.14
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/imt/ftp.py?imt//nca/nca-02/nca-02-15-criminality-02-07


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## OpieRWestmrR (20 Apr 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> You don't need their log books. If MIA/KIA the RCAF destroyed them. Air Force Forms 540 and 541 were completed for every operational flight of every single aircraft. The a/c serial, names of crew, bomb load and take off time were recorded. If the a/c returned, its landing time and a summary of the crew's experiences during the flight were recorded. Squadrons made composite reports of the crew's flights. Groups then consolidated the squadron reports. Bomber Command HQ then produced a report of every raid.



In _Lancaster To Berlin_ Thompson at least once prefers his logbook entry over his (RAF) squadron's record. He recorded a lot of personal detail the official record mightn't bother with. 
But I think exactitude comes second to the point that this original record exists, written by a guy who grew up in a small town in BC and went to fight in one of the most significant campaigns of 1939-45. I figure it should be preserved as a significant local artefact. How many Pathfinder pilots grew up in White Rock?


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## mariomike (20 Apr 2009)

OpieRWestmrR said:
			
		

> In _Lancaster To Berlin_ Thompson at least once prefers his logbook entry over his (RAF) squadron's record. He recorded a lot of personal detail the official record mightn't bother with.



Each crew was was interrogated upon return to base. The 540 was the dispatch record and the 541 was based on what the crews reported.
But, these records should be used with some care. Distinction must be made between what was *known* to have happened and what the crews *believed* happened. Attempts by Bomber Command to provide raid reports based solely on the evidence of returning crews were soon found to be of little value. Perhaps they missed the target. Sometimes, the bombs did not even explode. For example, there were more than 10,000 UXB's in found in Cologne alone after the war - and these were only the high explosives. The unexploded incendiaries were never counted.


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## OpieRWestmrR (24 Apr 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Distinction must be made between what was *known* to have happened and what the crews *believed* happened.



No argument on any of that or your points of operational research. The detail I'm on about is this sort of thing, which is pretty much incontestable: 

Lancaster B1 R5868 S-Sugar  (137 ops) now on display at the RAF Museum at Hendon was originally Q-Queenie on 83 Squadron at RAF Scampton. The regular 83 Squadron pilot for Q-Queenie was F/L Frederick 'Rickie' Garvey, son of Vancouver Province sports editor, Art Garvey. Thompson wrote: "I flew Queenie to Turin on July 12th (1943) and was not at all impressed with the way she handled. She tended to keep the right wing low and I couldn't trim out this fault. When Garvey returned from leave I told him what a dunker he had for an aircraft."

Thompson drew that detail from his log in 1997 when he published his book and it's going to make my experience that much richer when I finally get to Hendon to see the aircraft 'in the flesh'.


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## mariomike (25 Apr 2009)

OpieRWestmrR said:
			
		

> Turin on July 12th (1943)



This was Squadron Leader J.D. Nettleton V.C., and his crew's, last trip. 
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/theartofwar/valgal/valour/INF3_0451.htm


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## OpieRWestmrR (28 Apr 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> This was Squadron Leader J.D. Nettleton V.C., and his crew's, last trip.
> http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/theartofwar/valgal/valour/INF3_0451.htm



Wow. I was aware of the Augsburg raid but never learned more than the basics. Your post led me to read on and discover the probability he was caught over Biscay by long range FW190s on the way home from Turin, in daylight. Not a little eerie - like fate catching up with them after almost a year.


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## mariomike (30 Apr 2009)

OpieRWestmrR said:
			
		

> Wow. I was aware of the Augsburg raid but never learned more than the basics. Your post led me to read on and discover the probability he was caught over Biscay by long range FW190s on the way home from Turin, in daylight. Not a little eerie - like fate catching up with them after almost a year.



Turin was a night trip. S/L Nettleton and crew were shot down by a German night-fighter.


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## OpieRWestmrR (5 May 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Turin was a night trip. S/L Nettleton and crew were shot down by a German night-fighter.



Yeah - this is what gave me pause about that:

http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/luftwaffe-fw190-10ZG1.shtml

and here as The Focke-Wulf 190 With 5./B.F.Gr. 196, 1./S.A.Gr. 128 AND 10./Z.G. 1 in MSWord format:

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/

Mr Arthy seems to have done a good job of research. Transcribed German microfilm records available on the net don't list any NJG claims for the night of 12/13 July 1943, as he says. There are plenty for 13/14 July on Bomber Command's trip to Aachen. 

Several sources I've seen say Nettleton's aircraft was shot down by a nightfighter "off the Brest peninsula" but the Turin raid didn't go near Brest on the way in, when it was dark. The stream went directly to the target via Cayeux and Paris, well to the east. After bombing Turin the stream was routed westward over southern France, then well out over Biscay before turning NNE to Britain over the western Channel. The crews were warned to swing wide of Brest to avoid the defences. 

There was insufficient darkness to cover the round trip to Turin. In July Brest gets 16 hours of daylight per day. Sunrise is about 5.30am. A descendant of one of the pilots killed on the raid, P/O Thomas Forbes of 12 Squadron, dug up the 1 Group orders for the (return) trip which end with: "(D) AFTER CROSSING THE ALPS A/C ARE TO LOSE HEIGHT AND FLY LOW OVER FRANCE. AFTER CROSSING THE ENEMY COAST A/C ARE TO FLY AS LOW AS POSSIBLE. AS SOON AS IT IS LIGHT ENOUGH A/C ARE TO ENDEVOUR TO COLLECT TOGETHER IN TWOS FOR MUTUAL SUPPORT." I gather the planners knew the aircraft would be coming home in daylight. Here's the link to the rest of the order, and some more raid route details:

http://www.aujs06.dsl.pipex.com/12squadron/html/records5.htm

German pilots claimed several four-engined aircraft off Brest and over the Channel about 6.30am, claims made by FW190 day fighters scrambled just after sunrise to intercept. JG2 claimed Lancasters while SAGr 128 claimed Liberator and Halifax aircraft - mistakenly, in Arthy's view.

Terrible weather there and back gave the Turin bombers some protection but the cloud also made it very tough to find airfields, so it appears the pilots had a hard choice to make: avoid Brest and have less fuel, or 'cut the corner' and risk the fighters to gain a safe margin for landing. 

I'm inclined to believe Nettleton's was among the aircraft the FW190s claimed, although one bomber did report being attacked by a Ju88 over the channel.


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