# Layton pitches veterans' benefits plan



## kstart (2 Apr 2011)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/04/02/cv-election-saturday-8.html?ref=rss



> *Layton pitches veterans' benefits plan*
> 
> NDP Leader Jack Layton, seen during a Friday campaign stop in Sudbury, Ont., will be in Nova Scotia on Saturday. Andrew Vaughan/Canadian PressSpeaking at a campaign event in Dartmouth, N.S., Layton said veterans are essentially forced to "fend for themselves" under Stephen Harper's Conservative government.
> "He promised to stand up for our veterans, and instead he’s shamefully turned his back on those that bravely served their country." Layton said.
> ...


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## OldSolduer (2 Apr 2011)

Mr. Layton can say whatever he likes because there is ZERO chance he will EVER be the Prime Minister.


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## Container (2 Apr 2011)

I find myself reading alot more, and spending alot of time looking at other parties this election. I must be getting old. I am a card holding conservative and I dont know howto vote this time around. Im kinda tired of the usual/ parties in general.  :-[


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## the 48th regulator (2 Apr 2011)

Jack Layton has promised to give all Canadians what they want if elected as Prime Minister.  The only Party leader on the road today, Layton laid out plans as the Prime minister.

-Quebec will be allowed to separate, and still receive Federal Funding from Canada.
-Grant all people residing in Canada tax credits, regardless of age or status.
-Return all Aboriginal Land claims to the Indigenous people.
-Return of the Cod fishing to the People of the Maritime.
-Legalize all forms of drug use.
-Lower gas prices, however pay a premium to Alberta for all of it's oil.

"I feel that we people in this lovely land deserve what is coming to us!"  Beamed Layton.

Layton said there was more to come, and that none of these election promises were in any way to buy votes from Canadians.


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## OldSolduer (2 Apr 2011)

He will??

Wow let me start my list......hmmmmm where to start?


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## Edward Campbell (2 Apr 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> He will??
> 
> Wow let me start my list......hmmmmm where to start?




How about here?






Don't bother to gift-wrap her, Jack, I'll play with her as soon as she arrives.


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## OldSolduer (2 Apr 2011)

These ladies with the rifle to slay zombies. Damn,,,,,I forgot.....Jack don't like guns......

I can think of one that Jack could give me but she'd kick my a$$ if I posted her pic here. >


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## Armymedic (2 Apr 2011)

Jack needs to lay out a comprehensive veteran's benefits plan for when he becomes PM, as his party will completely dismantle the CF and all of us will need compensation as we won't be able to collect any government benefits, because all of us Afghan vets will be jailed for war crimes.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Apr 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Mr. Layton can say whatever he likes because there is ZERO chance he will EVER be the Prime Minister.



Absolutely true Jim. It all mindless, yappy ghetto dog chatter that only creates confusion and detracts from the real contest between the conservatives and the liebrals.

He'll never be PM without Ontario, and Bob Rae(days) is still too fresh in our minds to ever give control to the Dipps again, at least in our lifetimes.

He's full of ideas these days, and like Iggy, promises the sky, but doesn't have the cash to back any of it up.

I think he's hitting his pain meds too hard. How else would he say he's the only one in Alberta that can defeat Harper and then tell Albertans he's yanking 2 billion from them and shutting down the oil sands. Goofy shit for sure.


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## kstart (2 Apr 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Mr. Layton can say whatever he likes because there is ZERO chance he will EVER be the Prime Minister.



Regardless, it's bringing back Veterans issues to the forefront of political debate to hold the other parties to account, and that can put pressures on the other parties to respond and show what they are doing and not doing for Veterans-- this should be a win for Veterans either way, if starting from zero.

I'm a civilian and a Dipper, I signed the petitions in favour of Veterans Rights, and I petitioned my government on behalf of Veteran requests, and at least got a response from my NDP MP on that particular issue and I'm pleased to see the NDP carry it further.

I do this because I know the hell of living with PTSD and on the principle that we deploy our forces to life-threatening areas-- that's the job, regardless of any mission-- they're the best.  But we also know the risks of exposures and OSI consequences for returning members and their families.

I would like to know more about Gagetown, was this experimentation using our forces as lab rats?  Is there any government/corporate responsibility for this?  Why shouldn't the chemical companies themselves be held to account and take on some of the costs of care?  

Harper is surely pleasuring them with further cuts to the Corporate Tax Rate (and it's not bringing jobs here, very little ROE [return on investment], given that we can't compete with emerging markets in India, where the labour costs are cheap [not the same inflation as here in Canada], less return even to the investor, given inordinately high CEO salaries.  A lot of these companies are making big profits off the backs of soldier's sacrifices and yet tax deductions to not pay into health care. . .

I see the Harper Government as in contempt of the very tents of democracy, on so many counts: not available for press interviews; secrecy; failure to submit douments so they can be assessed and appraised by opposition parties, as per the nature of Parliamentary styled democracy.

It's suppose to be "The Government of Canada", not the "Harper Government" when it comes to how Parliament is suppose to work.  I see it as an offense to every soldier who has ever laid their life down on the line, present and past for Canada .  I don't want to lose Canada, Dipper or not, I'm a Patriot.

All governments have to settle their business with the business sectors, but why put Canadians as the last of priorities-- why sell us off for cheap.  I don't like that seniors in my province have to wait 6 years for a long term care facility bed-- that is real hardship on families-- it's cruel, it leads to abuse and neglect, it's dehumanizing-- and what happened to the social contract-- the taxes they paid throughout their lives, on faith and the system, to get this, when they are most vulnerable

There's some wrongs that need immediate attention, for the protection of Canadian lives here at home too.  We rank 28 out of 30 developed countries in terms of our health delivery now.  
http://www.albertastars.com/posts.php?forum=4&topic=1261


Think privatization is a good idea for all?  The way insurance companies treat others who are ill, vulnerable and need medical attention (health care for profit is bad for health care delivery, they eventually tend to cut payments and services to make profit).

Even the Frazer Institute (normally a right-wing think-tank) agrees, problems coming.
http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Canada+shortage+will+worsen+Fraser+Institute+predicts/4445322/story.html


First Nations don't even have clean drinking water:  http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/First-Nations-water-served-at-U-of-W-today-118422859.html

Food Bank Usuage across Canada, an unprecedented 28% rise in reliance:  http://www.suite101.com/content/food-bank-use-in-canada-leaps-a309869

Inflation of Oil, increased costs of food-- history teaches us lessens about these things and if it hits critical mass, civil instability, revolts-- I'd rather hope our democracy works to prevent this from happening.  If we don't move toward re-balancing things, we could be in trouble.  They're indicators to keep aware of.

Why should people earning $700, 000 and more, NOT pay taxes?  Why all the tax breaks?    Money for food, goes back to local economy, it's a no-loss thing in that regard.  

I know a guy working hard labour (white salt stains on his clothing every day), working with a really protruded and painful hernia.  His surgery has been cancelled 4 times this year.  Workman's Comp solution is to have him work light duties, but it's not an ideal world.  He can't afford to go on EI, he'd lose his housing, nor welfare, he'd lose his housing (can't pay the rent).  Doctors shortage, maybe even shortages in anethesists.  It's slave labour to begin with-- there's no extra for a case of beer, some use credit cards for basic needs that come up.

REnters in ONtario pay 70% more in property taxes than home owners, a little known fact.  The poor are being heavily gouged., wages are cut to compensate for high costs of transport.  These are not good conitions, these are contributing conditions that unless resolved, we're going to have some unrest.

We could possibly do with less government bureacracy, but not at the expense of well-researched-based policy, i.e. it should not be based on ideology and out-dated economics.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Apr 2011)

And typically, from the left, this is all Harper's fault. Like it never existed before and Layton through his party's voting record, has not contributed one iota to any of this.

Riiiiggghhht 8)

Say what you will, he's still nothing but a distraction and gets paid no more attention to than Duceppe or May, except by his devoted followers who drank the kool aid.

He's a comminist and certainly no deep thinker, he's good with slogans though


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## Container (2 Apr 2011)

That last post has reminded me why I dont vote NDP. Conspiracy theories about being used as lab rats and the first nations answer being flinging more money their way instead of calling them to account for the money they already receive. In almost every situation with the government the answer is never more money- its smarter money. Which party is selling smart money?

Im waiting.....


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## Jed (2 Apr 2011)

Kstart was just fishing with grenades. Hang a sparkly bit of bait into the Army.ca pond, then when the PC fish come to nibble, let'em have it.  ;D


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## kstart (2 Apr 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> And typically, from the left, this is all Harper's fault. Like it never existed before and Layton through his party's voting record, has not contributed one iota to any of this.
> 
> Riiiiggghhht 8)
> 
> ...



It seems to me you are contradicting yourself by your very argument, as I see that you are shouting slogans.  

And to others, 'name-calling', objectification, personal attacks-- sticks and stones.    But whatever  :  

I will still go to bat on Veteran's rights, regardless of who comes into power, because I believe strongly in it (I pledged this years ago, though my own PTSD, I know Vets world-wide who face similar struggles-- a-holes too at the start of it [well anger, rage, and understable and valid].  

I know one of the guys who was actually spat on, post-Vietnam-- he was the sole-survivor of a heli-crash, lost his entire platoon and was laid up for 8 months in hospital and got spat on when he returned.  He was from a long line of Military, a big name going way back in history.  The bs he had to put up with via the VA-- unacceptable.  Other guy too, from Iraq, angry, wife's life was in danger, rage, not re-acclimatizing-- long wait for assistence-- I supported him through that.

I did street outreach for 10 years-- I honoured the anger with respect, a Mohawk Vietnam vet, sniper and knows his Native tongue.  Yeah, homeless, because how many years did it take for benefits to kick in (I stopped outreach back in 2001).  I was a first-responder to crisis, homocidal/suicidal.  I got people to helpo and resources and I listened respectfully to the burdens they were carrying.

I'm fairly hardened from my own experiences (and now pay some of the price in PTSD-hell).    I'm stronger though, and I don't back down from a fight.  Sticks and stones, LOFL-- Bring It.

My relationship ot military goes years back.  I know abuse survivors from the bases too (some really ugly secrets).  But I treat people individually and with that respect.

I grew up with guns, and my old man blew his head off-- and it fkd us up for good, come to see that bs.  It went on for years, a reckless drunk with guns-- pointed at my mom's head-- seeing her cower to the ground (and I'm a child and can't do fk all about it), at us, walking up to it. . .  He was a violent drunk, we didn't get help and it got damn ugly and bloody and in our house.  His hunting buddy gave hiim back his guns without demanding thats he go in for treatment.  It came down to him or us, and we had to run BANG.  I know eggshells.  Holes in the walls.

My waitlist for help is much longer here in Ottawa.  I didn't have special insurance-- and DUMB to volunteer for dangerous situations when no-one's got my back.  DUMB.

So I think I have some insight into what happens when treatment is not available, and I know right up close the consequences of that.

So, my convictions are very real.  Ah, but go to army pond eh. . . love the contempt, bring it.


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## Container (2 Apr 2011)

*edit- I reread this and my tone isnt reflected very well- its not meant to be a down talking or prickish- just a little opinion worth no more than yours and certainly no less*

This is really the wrong place for all of that to come pouring out- quite frankly youa re supporting the only party that would guarantee that men like your father would be free to victimize.

Alot of times I see the NDP folks as people who really mean well- but some people just ain't "saveable". I had family in Vietnam as well- they are normal people for all the garbage they saw- well adjusted and like hell would they let anyone they served with, and that goes for any military folk in my family, to wind up as describe. Some people make choices and refuse help- or nevr bother reach out. And my years in "the muck" with the society cast outs I know there appears to be twice as many "walts" that find it an easy way to justify being homeless substance abusers if you say you're a vet. 

I spent alot of time as a younger cop trying to get these guys in contact with people only to find out I was being fed a line. It happens alot. VA is a bureaucratic mess, in my own experience and watching my father deal with them....and my grandfathers. But they are still nowhere near spitting on vets.

I'd suggest that you leave American context, especially Vietnam context- which appears to be its own "war", out of your ideas of Canadian vets treament.

As for "some really ugly secrets"- Canadian military bases are composed of humans, and some bad ones as well. But if you asked me the safest place to raise my kids you can bet military bases in Canada would be right up at the top. 

I think maybe your past is painting your perceptions of the state of Vets affairs. Of VA benefits could use alot of work but I think there is SOME good work being done. Course that could just be my experiences painting my perceptions.


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## a_majoor (2 Apr 2011)

The potential prize is too close for Mr Ignatieff and Mr LAyton to NOT trigger a coalition after the election results are in, so with Mr Layton being a potential cabinet minister we need to know and understand what he is offering and how he plans to gain the resources to do so.

For the CF, this is a pretty straight forward return to decades of darkness. The budget will be pillaged to fund these promises, and as the economy grinds to a halt as revenues dry up, there will be less for beans, bullets and the soldiers, sailors and airmen. Hard questions should be asked of Mr Ignatieff and Mr Layton, and if the Legacy Media isn't up to the task, make a pont of showing up at town hall meetings, call the radio shows and use the blogosphere to pass the messages.


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## Michael OLeary (2 Apr 2011)

> The NDP leader said he would make a number of changes if elected prime minister



When he starts talking in terms of how he will support the party that forms the government (which isn't going to be his in any reality I am aware of) on Veteran's issues, I might start reading what he says.

Until then, it's all smoke.


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## medicineman (2 Apr 2011)

Just remember - NDP=Not Destined for Power  :nod:.

MM


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Apr 2011)

Sorry kstart. You crack me up. You're just the kind Taliban Jack is looking for. At least you won't contaminate anyone I know. Have a good life there sport


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## Journeyman (2 Apr 2011)

kstart said:
			
		

> I honoured the anger with respect, a Mohawk Vietnam vet, sniper and knows his Native tongue.


Curious. 

Are you, kstart, saying you are a Mohawk-speaking, Vietnam-veteran sniper?


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## kstart (2 Apr 2011)

I know the difference between an addict talking crap to my face vs. a person who is in flashback-- the non-verbals give it away (and it can't really be faked), and I saw it out there.  Trauma is distinctive and discernable.

While it's a wait to get addiction treatment, and most on the street are suffering that and/or dual disorders (addiction and a mental health disorder)-- the addiction needs to be treated first.  Later stages of alcohol often requires medical detox, same with other substance abuse.  I know a chronic pain survivor who's life took a down turn because he got addicted to the Dilottas-- he tried to quit on his own and almost died, medical emergency (burn/electrocution victim).  WSIB similar hassels to the insurance packages re: Veteran care, percentage forumulas, really eager to cut costs-- PTSD is one of those dx's they try to cut at.

Trauma help is virtually all privatized-care, not covered by provincial health plans-- at best, one gets drugged, but that's not teaching the first-aid that's necessary to learn in coping with PTSD and assistance to their families.  It's a disorder which is highly under-served.  MEG scans show it's actually brain injury (affecting the hippocampus region), discernable, a medical condition just as other conditions.  It's often difficult to do a differiential diagnosis between TBI and PTSD.  It would be good if we had proper research funding, most of the specialization and research is Stateside, so it's reasonable that we have to share it.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Apr 2011)

kstart, you're posts are confusing. We don't know if you're talking personal experience. What your background is, or anything else. You're spouting a lot of clinical shit anyone can get with google.

Right now, I'm reading you're a Mohawk speaking, ex sniper, with Iraq (maybe Vietnam) experience and a whole lot of other stuff that doesn't make sense.

How about telling us who you are and what you've done.

Maybe then we'll be able to understand why you're so eager to talk about your PTSD, childhood & adult experiences, where thousands of others wouldn't.

BTW, it's not Dilottas, it's *dilaudid*. I figured anyone as close to the street as you, dealing with all the problems of others would know that from all your exposure.

Again, lots of cool clinical cut and paste, but you can't spell a simple medication.

Oh, and this one? 





> I know the difference between an addict talking crap to my face vs. a person who is in flashback-- the non-verbals give it away (and it can't really be faked), and I saw it out there.  Trauma is distinctive and discernable.



Unless you're a clinical phsycologist, I call bull shit.


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## Journeyman (2 Apr 2011)

kstart said:
			
		

> > I honoured the anger with respect, a Mohawk Vietnam vet, sniper and knows his Native tongue.
> >
> >
> >
> > ...


It was actually a "yes" or "no" question....not an essay question.    :


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Apr 2011)

Anyway, the thread is about Taliban Jack, not kstart and his service to humanity.


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## Container (2 Apr 2011)

kstart said:
			
		

> I know the difference between an addict talking crap to my face vs. a person who is in flashback-- the non-verbals give it away (and it can't really be faked), and I saw it out there.  Trauma is distinctive and discernable.



Nope. Doesnt work like that- such things dont exist as rules. Some behaviors are indicative of potential truth or deceit . But not like you said. Your issues are painting your expectations. Like child abuse advocates that see child abuse in everything because of their own experiences. The idea that someone who had convinced themeselves of their "past" due to their mental illness or an addict who actually had it happen has a secret set of nonverbals exclusive to each is....untrue.......

Moreover- being an advocate like you said you would be aware of the massive levels of mental illness in homeless transient populations.......and the levels of addictions....so you are basically saying you can tell the difference in nonverbal cues between one mentally ill drug addict who tellls the truth and one who lies just on their "non-verbals". Especially on the side of the road.

You wont change your mind but youre transferring your expectations and only accepting what suits your world view.


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## Michael OLeary (3 Apr 2011)

This thread has sufficiently departed from discussion of politics to be unrecoverable. It is locked.  All participants are advised not to try and continue the debate it turned into on any other thread.

Milnet.ca Staff


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