# Upgrades to Combat Clothing! (pockets on the sleeves & zippers)



## silentbutdeadly (8 Nov 2005)

Well the first thing is that we need freakin buttons instead of zippers , i dunno how many cbt pants i have turned in geeezzz. second i thing we need to rethink the cbt shirt. Since we are going to an age of Flax and TV on at all times i think we need pockets of some type on the sleeves. I am leaving with TF Orion and i have already made an arid cadpat shirt with pockets on the arms.


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## Armymedic (8 Nov 2005)

A group I was with in Afghanistan this spring put in a UCR ref the pockets on the CADPAT shirt, asking for pockets on the upper sleeves.


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## GO!!! (9 Nov 2005)

We made that particular deficiency known in 2001 when the new cbts were trialled at 3VP. 

The major from DLR told us "you don't have to wear body armour all the time, what about the people stuck back here in Canada?"

and

"We will not be designing an entire clothing system around the light infantry"

Ottawa knows best I guess.


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## Britney Spears (9 Nov 2005)

> The major from DLR told us "you don't have to wear body armour all the time, what about the people stuck back here in Canada?"



So, naturally, you gave him the eminently reasonable response, "Fuck 'em! Is the war in Canada?". 

Right?


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## Matt_Fisher (9 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> "We will not be designing an entire clothing system around the light infantry"...Ottawa knows best I guess.



But we will be... www.icetactical.com     ;D


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## GO!!! (9 Nov 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> So, naturally, you gave him the eminently reasonable response, "frig 'em! Is the war in Canada?".
> 
> Right?



Yes, then I kicked over his briefcase and 90$ coffee cup, yelled HOOAH and ran from the room.

Seriously though, someone else beat me to the punch and said just that,  and the Maj. said that "these new cbts had to be suitable for wear in garrison as well as in the field" How our suggested pockets on the arms would have made them unsuitable as garrison dress is beyond me, but 3 bars beats 2 hooks every time...


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## KevinB (9 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> but 3 bars beats 2 hooks every time...


Unless you have a machine gun for 2 hooks and a belt beats 3 bars  ;D


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## buzgo (12 Nov 2005)

Its continuing:

The new NBCD (CBRN) suit has 'mag pockets' on the chest, but as above, how will you ever get at them? And the sleeve pockets are only big enough for a deck of smokes....


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## Dissident (12 Nov 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Unless you have a machine gun for 2 hooks and a belt beats 3 bars   ;D



You are not suggesting we should offer violence to a supperior officer? are you now? 

But seriously, what could possibly be wrong about an upper sleeve pocket? I can see it having to be on the right arm, so as to not interfere with the brassards, but thats pretty much it.


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## KevinB (12 Nov 2005)

Brassards????    We are designing Cbt wear - not DEU's.

I happen to like my notebook on the left arm.


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## Dissident (12 Nov 2005)

I was thinking along the lines that the arm pocket would be standard for all combat jacket. Being an MP, (if you had not guessed allready) the brassard issue came to mind. 

I too would like it better on the left arm, otherwise.


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## KevinB (12 Nov 2005)

I always thought brassards where dumb in any form or shape.
 Red Hat = MP  

 The ISAF brassard are equally as dumb - but that is for another rant...


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## a_majoor (13 Nov 2005)

It really sounds like the Major made a case for (GASP!) Garrison Dress!

Stand by for the Cloth the Soldier in Garrison project.


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Nov 2005)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> It really sounds like the Major made a case for (GASP!) Garrison Dress!



I'd be in favour of that, if it was smart and practical and got people to stop posting about pockets on the combat shirt sleeves. 

I don't mean a return to the hideous Garrison Dress that you couldn't even work in (with high top polished boots you couldn't move in without scratching - if you were too dumb to get a medical chit that is or a boss too hidebound to let you wear combat boots, a goofy web belt that you wore just under your nipples, and a jacket that was not just dorky looking but actually wind and waterproof (great for working indoors) and restrictive of movement (with the added requirement of tucking your shirt collar over the top to chafe your neck).)  

Call it Barracks Dress, let us wear our combat boots, and give us some green pants and a practical green shirt.  The new CF sweater is not well liked and you can't work in it, it's too delicate - it's a dress uniform.  Give us a hard wearing olive green sweater for winter, or let us do like the British and allow regiments/branches to have their own unit coloured sweaters.  Retain the combat jacket/parka/raincoat for wear as a topcoat with Barrack Dress.  

Then you have a decent order of dress between DEUs and CADPATs, and you can design your CADPAt for practicality in the field without worrying so much about uniformity.  And with only two or maybe three new components (pants, shirt, sweater/jacket) there isn't a whole lot to have to maintain.


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## KevinB (13 Nov 2005)

MichaelD -- you know I think the old OD pants have found a use...

   Add in a regimental T shirt and voila (okay so your "Brit" sweater idea for cooler weather).


Maybe CTS could milk it for a few more years


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## silentbutdeadly (24 Nov 2005)

Ok ! more on this and i am hope someone with some rank on this site can tell me whats up! i received an email on the subject of the pockets on the sleeves. Well i guess the CDS, yes the CDS, said that he highly recommends that the pockets get put on the sleeves for the next Roto to TFA. Well when i scolled down to see all the other comments from the various leadership with the BG ( mostly RSM's by the way! the Officers are all for it) lets just say that it would take 5 yrs to get this done ! hahah i am kidding, but its just hard to take that we can't look to the future. All you need is maybe 2 shirts done this way for operations thats all and have the people at clothing to do the mods, it should take no more 2 weeks for units that need them ( rifle coys, eng, recce etc) Cimic and other org don't need this mod.


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## GO!!! (24 Nov 2005)

Pretty sad that the Chief of Defence Staff has to intervene to get such a simple task accomplished though. Good on him!!

Even worse that the SNCOs are the ones opposing such a common sense mod. Are'nt they the ones that are so fond of reminding us that "I was a Cpl too once"

Not hijack this thread too much, but it kind of makes you look at the suggestion that the officer corps be drawn from the NCM corps with a little more of a critical eye. If the SNCOs are so set in their ways that they cannot even bring themselves to allow the pockets on a shirt to be moved, how are they going to bend their heads around something really radical - like concentrating on urban ops and letting our trench digging skills fall a bit by the wayside.


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## KevinB (24 Nov 2005)

Rob -- you and MJP etc should just go out and get two shirts done as soon as you get the CADPAT AR - and get one TW short done just cause...

  4th knows of a tailor that did the rigs for me, RobJ, Tony, Cecil etc. that could get them done or make a new shirt (but likely pricey)


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## George Wallace (24 Nov 2005)

I just thought of the Brassard that you are going to wear over the 'Pockets'.  It would impede any access to the pockets.  Quick fix - put a pocket on the Brassards instead.


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## Chimo (24 Nov 2005)

I can't believe we haven't put pockets on thesleeves yet. I hate brassards, they look stupid. Why not just sew the fancy patch on velcro and add that to the sleeve, or leave the fancy patch at home.

As for the RSMs not supporting the ideas, I can't believe they all do not support but I will offer this thought...The only thing harder then getting an old idea out of a military mind is...getting a new one in!

Bravo to the CDS for playing the CDS trump card.


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## mover1 (24 Nov 2005)

I hope you get a pocket on the arm of your shirt. Then we can have a thread on how its too small or gets in the way etc etc. 
The way people go on about buying Gucci cadpat gear and packs I would figure that a little pocket on the arm would be a non-issue. The pocket in the brassard is a good idea. I wear a brassard every day at work (it differetiates me from he bin-rats and the lowest common denominator  ;D (MSE ops) 
Another good idea (and I found this worked real good.) was to stop packing around a bunch of useless crap I don't need on a regular basis.  I know that a bunch of the warrior types are going to jump on me now and say how when they they are on patrol its imperitve that they have a note pad and that all the kit they carry is mission critical.  
But really life must be great if thats all you can complain about is a pocket. 
Speaking of pockets. The Airforce Rain coat, a simple little coat with no pockets on the chest.. just two at the waist and some reflective tabs has been Armyified. Chest pockets and name tapes have been added.     Thanks. Now I have more things to catch and hang me up when i am working with a load


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## McG (24 Nov 2005)

silentbutdeadly said:
			
		

> Cimic and other org don't need this mod.


CIMIC pers also wear the frag vests & balistic plates.

silentbutdeadly ,
I think I may have seen the same Email.  The direction is that this mod will happen prior to deployment (CDS & CLS have both directed this).  However, individual soldiers will not do the mod themselves.


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## silentbutdeadly (24 Nov 2005)

Yes they don't want the troops making there own mods , but we were told from our higher , that nothing is going to be done at all! Yes Cimic do where that kit also but its not a major issue for them to get in there pockets as does Cbt arms soldiers. For this mission in TFA is alot different for the cbt troops then Cimic.


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## silentbutdeadly (24 Nov 2005)

And what i mean about the Cimic and other Org. is time and money , if there is an order of march the fighting troops need this done now! If this is directed then why isn't it happening? Life is good when we as troops on the ground are miffed about pockets because we might actually use them better then cig pack holders!


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## scm77 (24 Nov 2005)

Someone already has pockets on his sleeves...







Bigger version


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## Jay4th (24 Nov 2005)

Yes life is pretty good. ...Eight hours into a foot patrol in 35 celsius you've sweated through your vest and plates so much your mags are soaked and now the useless pockets on your chest are eating (not chafing) your skin. Now life sucks and I can bitch about my pockets. If you dont know why we are bitching, please think before you speak.   SBD and I have purchased the civvy model of the arid cbt shirt to try our mods and hopefully present an improvement in the appropriate forum. Failing that, We are putting nametag velcro and flag velcro on it so if someone pissy happens to see it at least they can jack us up by name. Maybe they will ask why we have done these mods.


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## KevinB (24 Nov 2005)

Mover1 -- thanks for coming around and adding you usual drivel    Sure you dont work for CTS????


A vast majority of other armies have already done this -- NewsFlash -- combat are not supposed to be designed for Garrision -- but for --- Combat (or the preparations for).

As Jay pointed out 
Please note we already have a HUGE anal probe slammed into us via wearing 90+ lbs of gear one our 1st/2nd line - just the basicload...
add in a daypack with extra stuff for a small walk - and your humping a lot of weight thru some pretty shitty terrain/climate.

 Nevermind if your doing some sort of assault and have take take extra ammo, and explosives etc. with a ruck.

Now these pockets that are on the front rub up and down with every step and your soaked and the poo dust is acting like a sandpaper slurry with your sweat and shirt...

Yeah everything is just fine. :


As mentioned previously - place large velcro patches on the pocket -- for those who's Wagon Wheel or MP stickier mean so much to them they can put them on -- the rest of the world can put IR tape and flags.

 Secondly - yeah it is a huge piss off to comeup on something and need to dig out a digi cam or notbook to record something and either have to take off your daypack or dig under your armour to find it.


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## KevinB (24 Nov 2005)

FWIW Paraclete's SOF BDU's


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## silentbutdeadly (24 Nov 2005)

KevinB, 4th and i are going on the weekend to get our shirts(non-issued! >) done up and i will post a pic for everyone to see! plus the one showing the dude from 3VP, i here that was the job of a Mattech within there bltn. I am going to add a pen/pencil/what ever i can get in there pouch on the lower right sleeve!


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## KevinB (24 Nov 2005)

Get MarkC on board as he is the DCO/OC Admin for 3VP -- I heard 1VP's new mattech is not helpful...

 Cant wait to see what you guys come up with -- Cheers


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Nov 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> MichaelD -- you know I think the old OD pants have found a use...
> 
> Add in a regimental T shirt and voila (okay so your "Brit" sweater idea for cooler weather).
> 
> ...



That's an excellent idea too; I imagine the green pants have all been shredded by now though....


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## McG (24 Nov 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> As mentioned previously - place large velcro patches on the pocket


That was also mentioned in "the email": velcro patches on both sleeves for wearing of IR flags on both sleeves.  (The guy with the garrison comment could slap a velcro Bde patch on the right sleeve when in Canada)



			
				scm77 said:
			
		

> Someone already has pockets on his sleeves...


I got the impression that the guys in theatre were given the okay to implement thier own program at the PRT & BG level.  However, the direction I saw was pretty clear:  there will be a national solution before the next roto deploys.


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## Good2Golf (24 Nov 2005)

Well, having worked aviation life support eqpt for many years and as an aviator working closely with DLR guys, I can say some were excellent and others, well.... :

It boggles my mind that many people's first instincts are to take personal offence at constructive criticism of our gear.   I see absolutely no reason why you can't have a pocket on the shoulder.   My flying gear, both suits and jackets have pockets on them.   There is no "reasonable" scenario I can think of where a shoulder pocket would make you worse than before.   I still find it ironic that the front pockets seem strangely sized for the now defunct C1 mag! ???

Mind you, stupidity happens elsewhere as well.   I was working with a DLR fellow on a one-piece converged flightsuit/crew suit in NOMEX.   DLR rep asked me if I think the air force would mind if we added an extraction strap/handle on the back of the shoulders to aid in crew extraction from armoured vehicles.   I figured no problem...tac hel guys wouldn't have a problem with it, just a check with those higher up the food chain to confirm all would be OK for a converged design.   Well...it got shut down because a fighter guy at national level said that pilots would be made fun of in the mess because of the "handle" on the back...that was the end of that.   Said individual on the light blue side thereafter shut down such things as two-piece CADPAT NOMEX for helo crews, etc... 

At least you guys are getting pockets sew on for ops in theatre...a small, if not at least positive step in the right direction.   Sad that it takes the CDS to get involved for some to be helped to see some common sense.   :-\

Cheers,
Duey


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## George Wallace (24 Nov 2005)

Duey said:
			
		

> ......   Well...it got shut down because a fighter guy at national level said that pilots would be made fun of in the mess because of the "handle" on the back...that was the end of that.   Said individual on the light blue side thereafter shut down such things as two-piece CADPAT NOMEX for helo crews, etc...



I guess he never did any "Carrier Landings" in the Mess...  ;D


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## Good2Golf (24 Nov 2005)

LOL George!  As an OCdt, I once (luckily) paid half a month's salary as damages in the mid-80's for being part of a rowdy crowd conducting "carrier landings" in the mess at Portage.  We went through two cases of beer glasses and apparently broke two heavy wooden tables (the "carrier") during the evening...one guys needed 10+ stiches after a really bad "landing"...times have changed a bit, I suppose.  :-\

Cheers,
Duey


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## Matt_Fisher (24 Nov 2005)

Anybody looking for modified cadpat combats with sleeve pockets pm me as I have a source that should do what you're looking for.


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## Armymedic (27 Nov 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> As mentioned previously - place large velcro patches on the pocket -- for those who's Wagon Wheel or MP stickier mean so much to them they can put them on -- the rest of the world can put IR tape and flags.


Or that red cross we are mandated to wear...


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## Lerch (28 Nov 2005)

Has anyone here done any pocket sewing? I've done a few arm pockets on DPM jackets and they always turned out nice. I had them pleated with the tape buttons and everything. The thing about doing it on CADPAT jackets is getting the right material.


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## armyvern (28 Nov 2005)

Lerch said:
			
		

> Has anyone here done any pocket sewing? I've done a few arm pockets on DPM jackets and they always turned out nice. I had them pleated with the tape buttons and everything. The thing about doing it on CADPAT jackets is getting the right material.


Another problem is NOT damaging or sewing through the Gortex membrane within the jacket. Currently there is one qualified pers certified to effect repairs to gortex (and he happens to work for me!   ;D). What he can't fix then goes off to the civilian contractor for repair.


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## mover1 (29 Nov 2005)

Ok So now after everyone jumped down my gullet and called me a lesser person because I am not solderly enough to do foot patrols with body armor on in the various exotic locales (been there done that). I am, and would like to offer a small solution to everyones problem, with the chest eating pockets. The solution being .... are you ready.... the airforce has come up with a mechanics coverall sysem with Zip out legs so you can convert them into shorts. and a shirt that has no pockets in the chest but I do belive (after seeing one down town breifly) they have a pocket in the arm. YES THEY ARE CADPAT, and being issued AS WE SPEAK, if anyone needs the stock number please let me know I may be able to get it to you.
So you (those who are serious about changing the combat uniform and not those who are just kit WH*res) can have a little ammuniton and a little more meat in your propsals up your various chains of command. Just send me an e-mail through this site with an alternate (IE CIVVIE OR DIN E-MAIL ADRESS) so I can get this info to you soonest . I may be slow in responding via this means, (computer problems)  that why I ask you to give me an alternate line of communication


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## Goober (2 Dec 2005)

The Arid CADPAT that will be issued for the upcoming Feb 06 tour will have pockets on the sleeves. Or so said the Brigadier-General who breifed us today in Shilo.


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## MJP (2 Dec 2005)

Most of us have our Cadpat AR already for the tour and there aren't any pockets on the sleeve.  We are as we have said earlier in the thread going out buying our own shirts and doing it ourself.


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## Tracker 23A (2 Dec 2005)

What I can't figure out, is we have been wearing Flak Jackets for years over seas and we have just started to think about putting pockets on the sleeves of our shirts and making our uniforms work with our equipment.  Geesh, who would have thought. 

For any of you with experience in the UNPROFOR days in the former Yugoslavia, when body armour was first needed from stray rounds (ya okay), you must remember in Sector South in Croatia, how hot and humid it got.  Wearing a helmet and flak jacket in that humidity was brutal.  Nothing was said then, probably because the Cyprus mentality had kicked in, to those that made the rules.

It's good we are removing our heads from the antiquated mind sets some have of uniformality, and moving forward to functionality where it counts.

It's just too bad that those who can make a difference are so stuck in the past, they can't realize that this is needed and easing of the leash wouldn't be too bad.


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## KevinB (2 Dec 2005)

We finally remembered we are an Army...


 Increased exposure to the SOF units is one area I credit


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## armyvern (3 Dec 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> That's an excellent idea too; I imagine the green pants have all been shredded by now though....



I agree. Excellent idea. The old OG combats are still around. Most were re-distributed to Cadet Summer Training Facilities to kit out cadets with during their summer courses....

Now that the Cadet movement is looking into CADETPAT for them, perhaps we can attempt to get the OG back into our system rather than have them sold off through CADC as surplus to requirements if the cadets do go with CADETPAT. No need to shred the OG, no controlled technology there. I'd love to have a Brit sweater too!! Makes the chest appear larger I hear!   >


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## McG (4 Dec 2005)

Goober said:
			
		

> The Arid CADPAT that will be issued for the upcoming Feb 06 tour will have pockets on the sleeves. Or so said the Brigadier-General who breifed us today in Shilo.


The shirt will probably be issued without sleeve pockets (no such shirts were issued in Edm).  However, at some point pockets will be sewn into those sleeves and I've read direction from generals that this will happen before deployment on order of the CDS.  Wait & see.


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## Lerch (5 Dec 2005)

I'm gonna pick up a Frontenac jacket next time I go into New West to use as scraps. 
From that, I'll make myself some pockets. I'll post some pictures when I'm done the whole thing.


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## UberCree (15 Jan 2006)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Anybody looking for modified cadpat combats with sleeve pockets pm me as I have a source that should do what you're looking for.



Still waiting.... ;D


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## ICE Tactical (15 Jan 2006)

Picture of our new Combat Top will be available Monday.

Hobey


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## ICE Tactical (16 Jan 2006)

Here's our new Combat Top. Sleeve and 2-way accessible chest Pockets, zip front, reinforced elbows with pad pockets, and mandarin collar.

Hobey


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## Michael Dorosh (16 Jan 2006)

Lerch said:
			
		

> I'm gonna pick up a Frontenac jacket next time I go into New West to use as scraps.
> From that, I'll make myself some pockets. I'll post some pictures when I'm done the whole thing.



Would this not defeat the secret squirrel anti-IR properties that is supposed to mark the difference between Frontenac stuff and "real" stuff?


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## D-n-A (16 Jan 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Would this not defeat the secret squirrel anti-IR properties that is supposed to mark the difference between Frontenac stuff and "real" stuff?



Doesn't really matter since he's a cadet.


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## Michael Dorosh (16 Jan 2006)

MikeL said:
			
		

> Doesn't really matter since he's a cadet.



Well spotted.  ;D


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## Good2Golf (16 Jan 2006)

ICE Tactical said:
			
		

> Here's our new Combat Top. Sleeve and 2-way accessible chest Pockets, zip front, reinforced elbows with pad pockets, and mandarin collar.
> 
> Hobey



Hobey, do you buy the material from elsewhere, or do you get it printed yourself?  I'm wondering if there is even a remote possibility to get that (and pants) in NOMEX with the AR pattern printed on it?

Cheers,
Duey


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## ICE Tactical (16 Jan 2006)

Duey,
We buy from the DND approved mills. I have a request in to them for AR Nomex. I don't know what they have, but if it's available  I'll get it.
Are there any garments currently made for DND out of AR Nomex? I know there has been some work done for flightsuits.

Hobey
hobey@icetactical.com

ps. DND wants us to clearly state that commercial use of the CADPAT prints don't have the IRR treatment.


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## MJP (17 Jan 2006)

Looks good Hobey!  Guys were asking about them today.....I'll direct them your way.  BTW the double is being quite well recieved.


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## ICE Tactical (17 Jan 2006)

MJP,
Thanks. You have the first prototype Double-double. Here's a pic of the CADPAT sample.

Hobey


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## PhilB (17 Jan 2006)

Ref pockets on the sleeves, and more importantly the approval for said alterations;

I am over at mirage right now. We head north in about a month once the main body hits the ground. Several of us want to modify some of our shirts with the pockets however our local chain of command is not allowing it. Is there any documentation from higher (CDS, or TFA) which states that this is approved? If anyone has any info pm me please. Thanks for the help guys


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## McG (17 Jan 2006)

PhilB said:
			
		

> Is there any documentation from higher (CDS, or TFA) which states that this is approved?


The modifications are approved.  Doing it yourself is prohibited.


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## Good2Golf (17 Jan 2006)

ICE Tactical said:
			
		

> Duey,
> We buy from the DND approved mills. I have a request in to them for AR Nomex. I don't know what they have, but if it's available  I'll get it.
> Are there any garments currently made for DND out of AR Nomex? I know there has been some work done for flightsuits.
> 
> ...



ICE Tactical, there is currently not any AR Nomex that I know of...I heard Peerless printed some in TW.  I would personally spend a portion of my foreign service pay from over here to buy some tan Nomex, sent it to get printed with AR, and give it to you to make a couple of sets of AR Nomex (for use as flight gear).  I also don't give a rats about reduced IRR efficiency...there are bigger IR emitters out there...like my melon!  ;D  Seriously, I know somebody at DuPont and will see about doing it...I'm a little sick and tired of having tried to push for this for close to 10 years, only to see a fighter-pilot inspired Canadian variant of the CJU-27C Nomex USAF flightsuit, while tac aviators get the same old OG107 wool-poly blend two-piecer that we had in 1988!!! 

I will try and get a hold of some material to send to you after I redeploy...for now, I wear the USSOCOM monochrome tan Nomex 2-pc flying suit worn by the 160th SOAR(A)...that's nice to have to do that, eh?  :

Cheers,
Duey


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## loyalist (18 Jan 2006)

> Doesn't really matter since he's a cadet.



What is a cadet doing with CADPAT? Is that not still protected?


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Jan 2006)

loyalist said:
			
		

> What is a cadet doing with CADPAT? Is that not still protected?



They can buy stuff from a company called Frontenac. It's different material and a different cut. It's not our issue stuff. Don't panic.


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## D-n-A (18 Jan 2006)

Actually, Lerch does have the real issue CADPAT uniform, an a issue OD goretex, jacket, etc.

Posted pics of his stuff on another site.


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## qjdb (18 Jan 2006)

and if he got it from a legitimate source (surplus store) then they probably got it as surplus.  Due to all the attention that they have been getting, the surplus stores are keeping their noses clean on this one.  I have heard that there are a couple sets of 'real' stuff at Dave's surplus in New Westminster, so I am sure that there are others floating around out there.

qjdb


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## Scoobie Newbie (18 Jan 2006)

MCG can you point me in the right direction as to where they say this is approved and also if a Mat Tech did the alteration would that mean its approved?

Hobey what is the cost of the shirt and is it in IR?
Also do you make any chest rigs in Arid?

MJP how's that double thing work?


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## MJP (18 Jan 2006)

The double double works great!  Fits on the tac vest like it was one of the issued pouches.  PPCLI MCPL has a sample of one if you want to go see it.


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## ICE Tactical (18 Jan 2006)

CFL,
Shirts are $115 each 2 for $210.
We are a commercial licensee for CADPAT, so the fabric lacks the IR treatment, as ALL  commercially available CADPAT does. 

Hobey


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## ICE Tactical (18 Jan 2006)

CFL,
We are making chest rigs and over-vests right now. All MOLLE compatible, to work with our pouches. More info this week.

Hobey


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## Matt_Fisher (18 Jan 2006)

CFL,

Regarding the IR issues.  This goes for all aftermarket cadpat done by all the licensed manufacturers:  None of it is IR treated.  DLR/CTS requires that all aftermarket cadpat kit is marked as 'Non IR-Treated' which ICE does.

Now when you consider the whole IR thing there are some things you should ponder:
1.  What portion of enemy forces has night vision capability?  Then think about what the optical resolution is like for most night vision equipment (not talking thermal imaging) and you quickly realize that anything/anyone over 30-40 meters away becomes extremely difficult to see details such as camo pattern on uniform, etc.
2.  How durable is DND spec IR treatments?  How long does the IR treatment remain effective before it degrades through laundering, Especially when you consider that most laundry detergents have optical brighteners which change the light reflective properties of a fabric in both visible and non-visible spectrums (ie. IR)
3.  How effective is DND spec IR treatment when the clothing or equipment article has become soiled with dirt, mud, grease, etc?  These all also degrade the IR coating and are impossible tangibles to avoid when operating.

I am by no means saying that having non-IR treated stuff is good-to-go and it doesn't make any once of difference whether your stuff is IR treated or non-IR treated, but the whole IR treated issue is something that is made out to be more than it really is.
It's a balance in that either you or your chain-of-command makes a decision on whether you want to use issued IR compliant stuff which may decrease your potential efficiency as a soldier due to the design of that kit, or whether you want to use non-IR treated aftermarket stuff which acts as a force multiplier to your efficiency as a soldier.


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## Scoobie Newbie (18 Jan 2006)

Thanks all.


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## Yeoman (11 Feb 2006)

that's the first I've ever heard of this directive. can someone pass this along to me?
show the room mate, so he can crap his pants and get the mat tech at work to assault his arid cadpat for him then.
and matty; questions in bound 
Greg


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2006)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> that's the first I've ever heard of this directive. can someone pass this along to me?
> show the room mate, so he can crap his pants and get the mat tech at work to assault his arid cadpat for him then.
> and matty; questions in bound
> Greg



There are directives that specifically state that you CAN NOT alter CF issue kit items. If you buy something that's one thing (then I'd also expect you'd be paying that Mat Tech to do the job after hours as he technically can not do anything to purchased kit using DND/CF machines or *supplies* on DND/CF time). 

If it is kit that you are issued, alterations/modifications are not authorized unless for special size requirements, or through an NDHQ authorized project. Else, be prepared to be asked to file the Loss and Damage report so that the Crown can recover the costs of replacing item from you when you attempt to turn in your 'altered' kit. 

If you are buying an "add-on" pack etc to be attached to an issued piece of kit, which does not permanently modify the issued item you should be good to go. As long as your own Chain of Command is going to allow you to wear the issued item with the add-on after-market item on it.


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## armyvern (12 Feb 2006)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> show the room mate, so he can crap his pants and get the mat tech at work to assault his arid cadpat for him then.
> and matty; questions in bound
> Greg


Hope that your room-mate is currently deployed or is deploying shortly, otherwise he had 30 days after his return from theatre to turn in his restricted Arid Cadpat to Clothing Stores as per directives.


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## Yeoman (12 Feb 2006)

everbody from the 1st herd of the royals already got theirs. why I don't know, they're not leaving for several months. makes me confused, all I got last year was desert nametapes (then again I never did deploy, ANYWAYS).
well I was just asking that because the guys on here were saying the cds authorized it or something? make it easier on the guys to just go through the mat-tech rather then dropping a couple bills on one of the fancy ones through the kit mongrel websites (even though I'm still going to go just that, but that's not the point of this post).
everybody I know keeps harrassing me about shiny kit syndrome because they're allowed to do like a trillion things for the next roto so they're going through me to obtain everything basically, my head is about ready to explode for all this shiny kit requests.
Greg


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## Bzzliteyr (12 Feb 2006)

Heck, when I got one of the first CADPAT uniforms in 2000 (for my tasking at the war museum in Ottawa), I had to get special permission from Clothe the Soldier to modify the pants thru NDHQ tailor shop just so they would fit me!!  Same goes for any females that want need to get Pregnancy CADPAT.  I would love to see the arm pocket authorized soon though, they look very handy and if we can manage to give them to pilots, then we should be able to give em to Army guys...


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## McG (13 Feb 2006)

Yeoman said:
			
		

> that's the first I've ever heard of this directive. can someone pass this along to me?
> show the room mate, so he can crap his pants and get the mat tech at work to assault his arid cadpat for him then.
> and matty; questions in bound





			
				CFL said:
			
		

> MCG can you point me in the right direction as to where they say this is approved and also if a Mat Tech did the alteration would that mean its approved?


To be clear on this, nobody is permitted to make (or have someone else make) alterations to the uniform.  These changes will be made through TFA for pers already deployed (obviously the army missed the deadline of getting it done before TF 106 departed) and through a national program for pers that will deploy on the next roto.

Hopefully, the national program also updates the green uniforms for everybody.


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