# What makes a good 9mm?



## Diemaco (27 Jan 2004)

I was wondering.. what decides the ranking of a pistol? I know special forces use the expensive and famous sig sauer p228... but what stops them from using a cheap semi plastic glock 17? Is this purely based upon performance? e.g. reliability? 

When you get down to the basics, all it is, is the hammer striking the bullet and propelling the slug down the barrel... both fire the 9mm parabellum... but would a p228 hurt more than a glock?  :akimbo:


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## East Side Soprano (27 Jan 2004)

They consider reliability, accuracy and durability among other things. 

They need a pistol that will not crap out on them at the worst possible moment. If it can fire thousands of rounds with very few jams,stoppages and/or other physical damage , that‘s a good sign of reliability. 

Accuracy is important for obvious reasons. 

Durability and ruggedness is important because users need a pistol that will continue to function after it has been dropped, submereged in mud or water, used as a hammer and can tolerate poor ammunition types picked up in foreign places.

That‘s some of it at least...


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## Diemaco (27 Jan 2004)

Thanks a bunch, been wondering about that alot... now I can accurately explain why a glock isn‘t as amazing as Hollywood seems to teach...


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## East Side Soprano (27 Jan 2004)

One of the Glock 17‘s advantages is that it has relatively few parts to it compared to other pistols = generally simple maintanance and (hopefully) better reliability.


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## Slumsofsackville (28 Jan 2004)

BHP for example. Simple, Got reliability, accuracy (SOSO) and durability.


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## Slim (28 Jan 2004)

I used to shoot the CF BHP in compatition. If you can accurately shoot a BHP then you can shoot anything!


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## Slumsofsackville (28 Jan 2004)

All it needs is a tighter fitting barrel. Im fact I want one again.


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## Thompson_JM (29 Jan 2004)

from what ive heard from some cops and army guys is that the Sig pistols arnt accually as good in a sustained firefight as some pistols. but thats just what ive heard.  another advantage of the Glock is that it is a simple pistol to use (also based on what ive heard) 

also, there is really no standard as to what a "special forces" will use.. in many cases it seems to be the choice of the operator him or her self. a good example is the HK MP-5. its not a standard weapon among all spec ops. but it is certainly a prefered weapon. some may choose the UZI, and some police and federal agencies prefer the Colt 9mm (weapon names taken from Janes Gun Recognition Guide 2nd edition orig. pub. 2000)
the colt is a C8 chambered for 9mm.

I know the Toronto ETF Use Glock Pistols chambered in .40 cal. Halton regional TRU (near T.O.) use .40 bereattas, with a larger bore (or something like that) 

as east side soprano has said, they pick the weapon that they feel is best suited for the job.


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## Slumsofsackville (29 Jan 2004)

They went to .40 to make up Hitting power, for there lack of shoot abilitys.


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## Diemaco (29 Jan 2004)

so.... in terms of calibres.... which would you rather have chambered.. a .45 or a 9?


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## East Side Soprano (29 Jan 2004)

If magazine size wasn‘t an issue, definitely a .45. Way more hitting power, but due to the large size of the round the pistol will end having a small mag capacity or end up having a massive bulky frame to accomodate the extra rounds.


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## Ex-Dragoon (29 Jan 2004)

East Side ...out of curiousity what small arms have you handled and are qualified on?


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## Diemaco (29 Jan 2004)

I‘ve heard that the mp10 equals the punch power of the m1a1 thompson... is this round bulkier? Also... when you measure a 45 and a 9, dnt they come up to the same size roughly? the 45 being a more stubbier design, does this shape difference make it more deadly? or is there more detail to dulge into, e.g. gunpowder content?


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## Slumsofsackville (29 Jan 2004)

9mm is shorter then 45acp. I would take a 45acp, but thats my prefence. 5X10rds 45acp mags loaded weighs over 2.5LBS. I have a Small hand so I perfer a Thinner frame. 

Yeah it can hold more powder then the 9mm, but your talking about a heavy bullet, and you need more powder to push that bullet out. I run 45acp up to 950FPS 230gr, and thats max for the bullet, any more and your running a risk. 

But 9mm is idea, they‘re thin, ammo light, and holds moe rounds in the mags.


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## East Side Soprano (29 Jan 2004)

Handled the C7, BHP, BDA, CZ85, Beretta 92, as well as various civilian market rifles and shotguns.


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## Ex-Dragoon (29 Jan 2004)

Handled or qualified?


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## East Side Soprano (29 Jan 2004)

Handled.


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## Slumsofsackville (29 Jan 2004)

I qualified on the BHP, but my unit wont reconigized it. Oh well.


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## Enzo (30 Jan 2004)

Diemaco, I find your choice for a moniker interesting. You do realise that this is the name of the company that manufactures firearms for the CF? I‘m confused about the message you‘re attempting to make as you seem to know very little about firearms.

I‘d suggest you go to your local library and read "Jane‘s Infantry Small Arms." It‘s a good place to begin. You‘ll have more information than you‘ll ever know what to do with and then you‘ll be in a better position to decide the questions you‘re apt to ask in the future.

There have been a few opinions written in this post that are just that, opinions.

For the record, Para Ordinance (a Canadian company) markets a nice series of .45ACP pistols that have larger magazines.

 http://www.paraord.com/pages/index.html 

The Glock is a pistol with a strong reputation and is hardly cheap - approx C$1000+.

As for the 9mm v. .40 S&W v. .45ACP. There is much written about this. Law Enforcement Publications and Sporting magazines (Guns & Ammo, etc...) have been debating the pros and cons of each for years. Bottom line. The NATO standard is currently the 9mm Parabellum (Luger). It is a proven round with a long history. (i.e. lots of guns and ammuntion types, 9mm bullets can be in many weights, everything from 95gr to 185gr; and types, Full Metal Jacket to Hollow Points to Semi-Wadcutters. The velocities vary with the weights and the power loading, eg. 155gr FMJ+P+ translates into a powerful load propelling a heavier 9mm at a fair velocity, this round would penetrate) 

Something you need to understand is that there is no such thing as a magic bullet. As the person who is firing, you need to be confident in your firearm (train, care for, become proficient and confident, etc...). Accuracy matters so much more than the bullet most often. You want the bullet to penetrate into the body, preferably causing as much trauma as possible to the vital organs. Whichever calibre you use, this is the goal. You want to drop the guy before he has a chance to drop you.

The thing is though, are you wanting to defend yourself? (Get a shotgun) Are you in law enforcement? (The sidearm is your primary "defensive" weapon) Or are you in the military? Take care of "your primary" weapon, your rifle. The sidearm to a soldier is a backup.

Beyond that, it‘s all personal preference. I personally favour a Colt 1911 SA .45ACP w/ a few after market modifications. There are many companies who specialize in such things. Kimber makes a nice .45 for the LAPD SWAT for example. That‘s my pref. In the field, if passed a 9mm BHP or a Sig P225, then I hope I have enough time on the range to become proficient with that. (and my C7)

Hypothetically speaking of course as I have to remind myself that I am a civilian again. (for the time being    )


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## Diemaco (30 Jan 2004)

I‘m sorry Mr Enzo, but are you in charge, of have any authority to judge how technically advanced my or anyones questions must be to qualify for posting? I thought these forums were free for general discussion. And yes, I first heard of Diemaco through the canadian m16a2. I‘m a civi too... but in the UK, which tries to make 6mm bb poppers illegal... I only get to fire .22s and the occasional 7.62 if I‘m lucky... (shooting club)


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## Slumsofsackville (30 Jan 2004)

Para‘s are like a 2X4 in your hand, huge grips. One thing i find why americans cant shoot the beretta 92/96, is because of the huge grip and its bulky. why thinner is better, can hold it tighter and its easier to control also lighter. 

Glocks are not $$$, many companys offer glocks discounts to military and le, and they are pritty cheap in the gun world 300$ off. 

+P or +P+ is thicker wall case so you can put more powder with out damaging the case or the gun. So yes faster veliocy. Something regular cases wont do without spliting. but the heaviest bullet for ive seen used for 9mm is 147gr and lightest is 90gr,


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## Enzo (31 Jan 2004)

Robert - Sorry, you‘re correct. I was tired when I wrote that and I was going off the top of my head. Couldn‘t be bothered to verify before I wrote. I had some ammunition in mind at the time - I was indirectly confusing the .45 185 gr with 9mm 147 gr. As for the Glock, I was thinking as a consumer purchasing locally. Wasn‘t thinking bulk sale. To me, anything approaching 1k is $. As for those big grips, I have big hands, I have to bear in mind the requirements of others. And I honestly love a good .45. I love the kick and the feel, I just don‘t have much love for the 9mm. I‘ll happily take a .40 S&W before that.


Diemaco -  "but would a p228 hurt more than a glock?"

I had that in the back of my mind when I wrote a response to you. It wasn‘t my intention to humiliate or embarrass you. If you feel that way, I hope you get over it, but a statement like that irks me for what I feel are obvious reasons. What I wrote for you was simply a question and some advice; good sources of information to queries such as the ones you asked. You do not need to read it nor do you need to listen. Your choice.

BTW, I am neither a moderator, nor am I a "Mr." just a nickname from diving. No need for the attitude eh.


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## mudgunner49 (19 Aug 2004)

Robert KM said:
			
		

> Para's are like a 2X4 in your hand, huge grips. One thing i find why americans cant shoot the beretta 92/96, is because of the huge grip and its bulky. why thinner is better, can hold it tighter and its easier to control also lighter.
> 
> Glocks are not $$$, many companys offer glocks discounts to military and le, and they are pritty cheap in the gun world 300$ off.
> 
> +P or +P+ is thicker wall case so you can put more powder with out damaging the case or the gun. So yes faster veliocy. Something regular cases wont do without spliting. but the heaviest bullet for ive seen used for 9mm is 147gr and lightest is 90gr,



I still have several boxes left from a 5 case lot of IMI 9mm black-tip carbine ammo, which is a 160gr +P FMJ.  These are pretty hot but my Glocks eat it just fine, thank you very much.


Blake


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## pappy (1 Oct 2004)

what makes a good 9mm..... the man shooting it.

But that aside, handguns are like women, oh man am I gonna catch crap for that one.... everyone has different likes and dislikes, some fit better then others.

I own own a couple of BHP's, simple, relieable, idot proof. 
But I also own a Walther P99 and that one is a close second FOR ME.
Find one you like, or if you have to us an issue one, then by all means don't bitch about it, learn to shoot it the best you can and then keep trying harder.

Everyone will say this or that is better, but the important factor is the person behind it pulling the trigger.  The second factor is that each and everytime you pull the trigger it ges POP......  not every pistol out there will do that.

As long as it ain't a peice of S saturday night special, any major brand of handgun will do the trick, if your doing yours.


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## Enzo (22 Apr 2005)

Pappy, you own a Walther P99, an interesting choice, how do you like it? I have some concern with the staged trigger. I'd want to spend a lot of time on the range before I felt confident with that in a stressful situation. I don't know about that decocker in the slide either.

What are your thoughts and experiences?

For the record, I have gone over to the 9mm camp. I eschewed my beloved Colt .45 for a Norinco NP-34 (Sig P228 clone) in 9mm. I have to admit, I love it. In Canada, I have a problem with wasted magazine space, so the 3rds lost to the 10rd mag doesn't keep me up at night. Although the Norinco's are a more affordable option than their counterparts, a pistol such as the NP-34 is the only option for a P228 if you do not possess a prohibited PAL. I would like to acquire a Sig P229 in the future, but as I lack the prohibited rating (kicking myself for not purchasing a >4" pistol back in the day) this is the closest I could legally come.


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