# The Rape of Berlin-the after effects



## 3rd Herd (16 Aug 2007)

Most of us have a general knowledge of the "Rape of Berlin" and the savargery of the Eastern front warfare. Historians have debated the extent to which it actually occured. 

THE OCCUPATION AND ITS OFFSPRING
Lost Red Army Children Search for Fathers
By Irina Repke and Peter Wensierski 

More than 60 years after the end of World War II, the children of Red Army soldiers born in eastern Germany during the Soviet occupation are now searching for their fathers with the aid of historians and the Russian media. Many of these so-called "Russian children" have endured lifelong suffering as a consequence of their situation.

Sixty-one-year-old Jan Gregor can still remember "every little gesture and every word my mother said on the day she decided to tell me the truth." His mother had just finished making the beds, recalls Gregor, who was born in the eastern German state of Brandenburg, and was smoothing the bedspread, as she always did, with her broom handle. After carefully putting the broom away, she finally came and sat on the edge of the bed, next to her son. After a long while, he said, she started to tell him her story.

Gregor remembers his mother talking very slowly and deliberately and, although only five years old at the time, he knew instantly what she meant when she talked about "being made pregnant by force."

"I was very mature for my age," he says.
Fifty-six years have passed since his mother told him the truth and for 56 years Jan Gregor has been engaged in a constant search for his father or, to be more precise, his fathers. Gregor's mother revealed to him during their bedside conversation that she had been raped by four Red Army soldiers during the final days of the war. Gregor says he'll continue searching for them "even if it takes a lifetime."

Meanwhile, Verena B., the daughter of a German mother and a Soviet soldier, has come to the end of her long search. After hearing about a "Search Show" on Russian television, she wrote asking if she could appear on it and was promptly invited to Moscow, where she got the surprise of her life. She discovered she had lots of half-brothers and half-sisters she knew nothing about -- her Russian family.

Story continues...................http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,500251,00.html


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## PMedMoe (16 Aug 2007)

It's sad to think of these "children" searching for their fathers who have probably passed away.  Thankfully, some have found other family members.


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## geo (16 Aug 2007)

Without trivializing the subject, this has been going on from time immemorial
The Visigoths, Vikings,the Huns, the Mongols, etc, etc, etc 

Remember the old saying "Burn, Rape, Pillage" (not necessarily in that order)

War is a hard thing.  Hard on the people who live through it, harder on the people who will follow.


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## FascistLibertarian (22 Aug 2007)

The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
The a lot of the Americans had a field day......


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## Roy Harding (22 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
> The a lot of the Americans had a field day......



Care to clarify that?  (references would be nice).


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff


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## 3rd Herd (22 Aug 2007)

You mean something like this:

"I. THE REALITY OF THE MILITARY SEXUAL SLAVERY ISSUE 

Military sexual slavery by Japan, which occurred during 1932-1945, was not simply the incidental raping of women by occupying soldiers, as has often accompanied war in the world. It was a deliberate, long-term, and systematic institution which was planned, designed, and enforced by the Supreme Commander of the Japanese army. Women between the ages of 11 to 32, 80 % of whom were Korean women, were taken to the Japanese occupied areas by force, deceit, or kidnapping in order to be used as military sex slaves for the Japanese soldiers. They were forced to serve about 30 soldiers daily on weekdays and 50 soldiers a day on weekends. These women were euphemistically called "comfort women". They were often called "Sen Pees", ("Sen" is a derogatory term for Koreans in Japanese, and "Pees" means "vulva" in Chinese). 

When the Japanese were defeated, most of these "comfort women" were simply abandoned. Some were forced to commit suicide with soldiers who sacrificed their lives in the name of Japan, while others were killed. A few of the "comfort women" who survived were saved by Allied forces.  Some of these women were taken by Allied military ships to Korea. Many of them stayed abroad because the humiliation and pain were too deep for them to overcome. Even today, most of them suffer from physical illnesses and/or psychological, mental and emotional wounds." THE REALITY OF THE MILITARY SEXUAL SLAVERY ISSUE,This Paper was presented at "The First East Asian Women's Forum," October 20-22,'94, Japan http://www.vcn.bc.ca/alpha/learn/KoreanWomen.htm


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## Blackadder1916 (23 Aug 2007)

As Geo points out this is nothing new (or was nothing new) during the Soviet occupation of Germany.  But as mentioned in the article quoted in the opening post the kreigkinder (war children) were not only the result of forced sex.  Sometimes they were the result of a consensual relationship.  The story of Soviet/German children may be a little different because of the attitude (both official and unofficial) of the Soviet military.  However, they were not the only ones to leave legacies after serving outside their country.  I recall a meeting I had with a young, visibly pregnant (and irate) German woman who was  looking for a recently repatted soldier who left without telling her (he said he would be in Canada on course for a few weeks).  Also, while it wasn't to the same extent as elsewhere there were a few abandoned children of American servicemen floating around Nfld when they had their bases on the island.

http://www.warandchildren.org/who%20are%20they.html


> Who are the war children?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The intention of this project is to bring attention to those children who have each of their parents on different sides of the frontlines or who's parents give them a stigma when they grow up. These children's suffering often starts after the war has formally ended. Every war sees children born as a result of contact between local women and soldiers. The soldier might be seen as an enemy - or an allied. The post world war history of Europe has shown that the problems of these children are often similar.
> 
> ...


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## Roy Harding (23 Aug 2007)

3rd Herd said:
			
		

> You mean something like this:
> 
> ...



Yes - sort of.  

Although I WAS thinking that FascistLibertarian might be able to supply his OWN references regarding his contention that ALLIED troops had a similar "arrangement".

If you have references to support his assertion regarding similar official practices "by our side", please post them here.

I'd MUCH rather hear from FascistLibertarian regarding *his* sources, however.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff


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## 1feral1 (23 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
> The a lot of the Americans had a field day......



A little bit of a bite by me...

I might come accross a little harsh here, but its posts like this which really eat at me! 


WTF??

Where did you find this info? Off some lefty anti-US website? Or perhaps the toilet wall of a gay bar?

What a crock of shyte! 

Seriously (as mentioned in an above post), we know of the disgrace of Japanese Imperial Forces use of 'comfort women' many who were Korean sex slaves, even used on troop ships, and accompanied the troops to some degree into the rear ech areas, but what is the other crap you are saying about widespread US Forces having field days of rape in occupied Japan?

Isolated incidents of rape although a total disgrace, do occurr even in modern warfare. I think of more recent times, a certain 'alleged' mental assylum, and publicised incidents in Viet Nam and yes Iraq too. War crimes happen. 

I did not think generic US Forces went on a RPB spree after VP (thats Victory in the Pacific), and quite frankly, sounds very disrespectful for you to outright accuse US occupying forces in Japan of doing such. Your accusation openly dishonours the US Vets of the Pacific Theatre, and thats wrong!! 

As for our use of hookers, I am sure some 'partake' throughout military history over the centuries, and in modern times, well some soldiers, sailors and airmen have used them too (me - never  ;D ), as have the normal population of the towns and cities. Here in Australia prostitution is legal, and when a big US a/c carrier or other nationality's Navy comes to Sydney or or Brisbane, the 'flatbackers' export themselves from all accross the country to get in on the action. Its not my cup of tea, but a fact. Life goes on.

Personally, it sounds like you are doing a little bit of US bashing at its finest.

Many may choose to have a field day on you for posting such crap!

Just remember, its your reputation and credibility on here, not ours. 

I think an open appology is next in order, don't you? Time to do the right thing and muster up some testosterone by giving that ball-bag a squeeze.

Yes, I am disgusted. You have pressed the right buttons for me


Wes


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## geo (23 Aug 2007)

Canadian troops going through Sicily, Italy, France, Holand & Germany... I am not suggesting that we sheltered a bunch of rapists but, 9 months after the Canadian Army went through, babies started to make themselves heard.

After Vietnam, there were many coloured vietnamese children, ostracized by the communist regime, the kids started looking for their dads.  I would venture to think that you will find plenty in Korea, Japan.  These are not the result of rapes, they are the result of violent times and a country at war.  The women were either the Wives, Girldfriends or Women of the night - surviving as best they could.

The Russians occupying Germany had an axe to grind & after having seen their country raped by the germans, they really and truly helped themselves.

The Japanese occupying China/Korea/Phillipines & the Germans occupying Russia/western Europe... well they helped themselves.


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## FascistLibertarian (23 Aug 2007)

I dont have the book with me right now but will be able to give u refrences in the next few days (I am movign and everything is pretty much packed up).
However Roy Harding and Wesley Down Under I was just wondering what books you have read ont he comfort women issue?
The book I read was far far harsher on the Japanese than the Americans but looked at the comfort women issue in regards to the larger Pacfic Theatre.
Most of the books written focus simply on the Japanese because they lost and their crimes were so brutal.
As well most Americans dont want to read about the bad things their troops did.
Does anyone focus on our side doing these bad things? Of course not, why would they, as the reaction to my statement has shown its not a history people want to remember.

Having organized hookers was a nessecity back then to control VD rates which were a seriouse problem to the combat effectiveness of the troops.
I agree 100% that this pales compared to the Japanse but that doesnt make it morally right.
As to the issue of rapes and American crimes in Japan, they were pretty bad, I am not blaming it on the Americans collectively, those individual Americans who raped and stole are guitly!


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## 1feral1 (23 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> However Roy Harding and Wesley Down Under I was just wondering what books you have read ont he comfort women issue?



What? Do you think we are phucking idiots?

I am at work on lunch right now, but one book in particular is in the WW2 Time Life Series - do you want me to quote you page and para, and sub para? However if you doubt us, try googling 'comfort women'. There is 14,000,000 references waiting for you, and don't gotta be a rocket scientist to figure that out.

Your statement you made is stupid!

We all know there is indiividual crimes, and thats a fact, but you paint the whole occupying force, and thats wrong.

You're a real piece of work!

Wes


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## George Wallace (23 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian 

How old are you?  I ask, because you post and use the logic of a prepubescent teen.


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## 1feral1 (24 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> 1. Most of the books written focus simply on the Japanese because they lost and their crimes were so brutal.
> 
> 2. As well most Americans dont want to read about the bad things their troops did.
> 
> 3. Having organized hookers was a nessecity back then to control VD rates which were a seriouse problem to the combat effectiveness of the troops.



1  - Because they lost? They were war criminals and barbaric beyond a joke to Allied (US, Australian British and yes Canadians too - and of course others) PWs and to the Chinese and Koreans. Infact sinfully sick is a better statement.

2. - Why not? Its history, but its nothing like you are painting it.

3.  A nessecity eh, so you condone the use of sex slaves? VD rates? What do you know about combat effectiveness? 


It sounds like these are your own assumptions and you've been literally been pulling them from your arse!

Your entire posts in this subject are unfounded and silly. 



Shakes head in disbelief,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (24 Aug 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> FascistLibertarian
> 
> How old are you?  I ask, because you post and use the logic of a prepubescent teen.



+1 George. I fully agree.

Wes


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## TCBF (24 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> Having organized hookers was a necessity back then to control VD rates which were a serious problem to the combat effectiveness of the troops.



- I would hazard a guess that with the widespread occurrence of AIDS (and a few of the more odious strains of the classic nasties) that there would be more of a reason NOW for the introduction (or re-introduction as the case may be) of Mobile Field Brothels in most militaries.

- Perhaps then, some of our younger soldiers - thus sated - might be a little pickier when they mate for life.

- If it saves one administrative burden, it's worth it!

 ;D


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## TCBF (24 Aug 2007)

"Two groups of "children" (they are not longer kids) have been vocal in raising the issue. The first is the group of children born of American and Canadian soldiers in England and the Netherlands. The other group is the Norwegian children of German soldiers." 

- Matter of fact, from the ABBA website:

"Anni-Frid Synni Lyngstad, better known simply as Frida, was born November 15, 1945 in Ballangen outside of Narvik, Norway. Her father was Alfred Haase, a German soldier, and her mother, Synni Lyngstad, was a Norwegian teenage girl. Frida’s father left Norway before Frida was born, and was thought to have vanished when his ship was sunk on the way back to Germany. 

18 months after Frida’s birth she moved to Sweden with her grandmother, Agny. Synni soon joined them, but tragically, less than two years after Frida was born, her mother died. Frida grew up with her grandmother in Torshälla, just outside of the town of Eskilstuna."

http://www.abbasite.com/people/bio.php?id=398


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## Red 6 (24 Aug 2007)

I don't know anything about the Germans and brothels, etc, but there is absolutely no comparison to the so-called "comfort women" forcibly kidnapped into sexual slavery by the Japanese and anything in relation to the allied forces in World War II. I'd like to know what sort of things we in the US don't want to read about in this respect, especially since I've always been extremely interested in World War II. Standing by...


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## 1feral1 (24 Aug 2007)

Red 6 said:
			
		

> I don't know anything about the Germans and brothels, etc, but there is absolutely no comparison to the so-called "comfort women" forcibly kidnapped into sexual slavery by the Japanese and anything in relation to the allied forces in World War II. I'd like to know what sort of things we in the US don't want to read about in this respect, especially since I've always been extremely interested in World War II. Standing by...



WRT FL, I think you'll be waiting a long time Red.

Another classic example of why some animals eat their young.

Wes


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## DaveTee (24 Aug 2007)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> 1  - Because they lost? They were war criminals and barbaric beyond a joke to Allied (US, Australian British and yes Canadians too - and of course others) PWs and to the Chinese and Koreans. Infact sinfully sick is a better statement.



I'm not getting into the whole rape / brothel quagmire. I just want to address this quote. Not ALL Japanese soldiers were "barbaric". James Bradley who wrote Flags of Our Fathers also wrote the book Flyboys. It is about a raid on Chichi Jima, the same one where George Bush Sr. was shot down and retrieved by submarine. Others who landed on the island after being shot down were beheaded and had some of their organs eaten by the commanding officer of the Japanese garrison. Now that IS barbaric, hideous and wrong. However, several Japanese soldiers and officers were interviewed in the book and state their disgust at what the CO did. My point is that you can't lump an entire country in a barbarians for the actions of some. Yes there were several terrible and unforgivable war crimes committed during WWII but you can't blame the average Japanese conscript for it when he would be beaten nearly to death if he refused to bayonet Chinese prisoners. It was a harsh system to all involved and I'm sure I'm about to take a lot of flak for this one.


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## 1feral1 (24 Aug 2007)

Sure some were not, but most were, and it was a cultural issue, as opposed to human nature's dark side. The code of Bushido, and the thought of surrender was never an option for them. The thought of us surrendering was considered a fate worse than death.

Attrocities were carried out on a GRAND scale against Allied PoWs and throughout China and areas. Google Parat Sulong for one example, or the Thai Burma Railroad, Changi Prison, just to name a few. The amount of Allied prisioners caught to those actually returning home speaks for itself.

Acts of canibalism, beheadings, outright torture, the murder of wounded soldiers, and other sickening things were routine.

They were merciless.

I spoke to an old Digger not long ago, he had told me the first Jap he shot was over 6ft tall, fit, and well kitted out, not the weak buck toothed four eyed stereotypical Jap the were told about in training. The Japs fought hard to the end. Overall well desciplined and battle hardened.

Cheers,

Wes


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## geo (24 Aug 2007)

DaveTee said:
			
		

> However, several Japanese soldiers and officers were interviewed in the book and state their disgust at what the CO did. My point is that you can't lump an entire country in a barbarians for the actions of some.


Dave,
Consider that the interview was made, after the war in which the Japanese lost.  No Japanese in his right mind would be quoted as saying that the acts of his CO were quite natural & normal from their perspective.

Consider that Japan has never appologised for the Rape of Nanking, the Comfort Women & pert much everything they did between 1937 and 1945.... that in itself says loads about the Japanese psyche.


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## DaveTee (24 Aug 2007)

They certainly were, no argument. They occured far more then to be random acts. Your absolutely right with the culutral issue statement. Bushido was the way of the samurai, pretty honorable fellows in their day, and was modified over time to come to represent what was acted on and enforced during the war. Quite a sad thing to have happened.


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## FascistLibertarian (25 Aug 2007)

Well I will not resort to name calling
I suppose you missed the point where I stated "a lot of Americans" and "those individual Americans"
I never said anything about the entire occupation force, just that sexual violence and the use of military controlled hookers in an issue which we LOVE to look at when it involves the Japanese but dont like to look at when it involves our side.
I, unlike you two, would rather judge the individual than the group.
As to me not understanding combat effectiveness, VD puts people in the hospital, people in the hospital cant fight.
Canadians had the highest rates of VD in ww1 on the Allied side on the western front. In Italy in ww2 they were bad as well. These lowered the number of people we have for operations.
I am not condoning the use of military controlled brothels, but here is my point.
If you are an individual soldier stationed somewhere you have to make your own choice if you want to use hookers or not.
Some soldiers will always use hookers.
If you are a US base commander you have to make your own choice about controlling the hookers to limit VD or not.
The first is individuals making a choice, the 2nd is officially condoning that choice to some degree.

I feel ANYONE can be a war criminal regardless of their sides, sure many more SS than Canadians were war criminals but that doesnt mean that no Canadians committed war crimes or that all SS did.

I assume you are aware of the high levels of VD in some theatres in ww1 and ww2. One way of attempting to lower this rate was having the military controlling prostitution.

Japan’s comfort women: sexual slavery and prostitution during World War II and the US occupation by Yuki Tanaka

See esp 84-182 – these pages have many specific examples of military controlled prostitution.

Pp 84 – Issue of comfort women used by Japan never dealt with by us occupation force despite evidence and reports.

The Brumfield report is not online bc it would embarrass the US too much.
Military controlled brothels were used by the Americans (pp 92-3) British (pp Ibid) and Australians (pp 94). See also page 99 for a war department memo from Brig. Gen. F.H. Osborn about why controlling prostitution by the military is needed.

Pp 101 “From these War Department documents, it can be verified that US military controlled prostitution was widely practiced in the Caribbean as well as Africa, the Middle East, and India”.
See 103-4 about how Australia cared more about the fact that their women were being used as prostitutes for blacks than that they were being used as prostitutes. 

Basically the war department official condemned these actions but unofficially condoned them (the reasons for this are obvious). 

If you are not aware of the Japanese bending over backwards to accommodate the sexual ‘needs’ of US forces during the occupation by setting up brothels filled with Japanese women for American use (this is extremely well known) just say and Ill post more.

Seeing as this is all fact, and that this didn’t really seem to offend you as much as my last statement, I will move into the rapes in Japan.

Pp 110 -112 for violence of Americans against Japanese in Okinawa during and after the battle and for the next 5 years.

See esp 116-132 for violence and rape during the occupation and the supression of this information, as well see 133-166 for Japan providing comfort women for Americans during the occupation.
pp117 two rapes reported on first day of the occupation.
However most rapes and criminal acts were not reported bc it was pointless. Some white guy did something but theres no way to ID him and the US is not very intrested in punishing him anyways.
pp121 for a gang rape by 27 Americans. Some of the mass rapes were carried out by large numbers of armed Americans with military percision.
pp 121-2 about how often groups or couples of Americans would rape.
123 for hpow MacArthur and Gen Eichelberger's first meeting after the surrender cermony was on Americans raping Japanese.
123-7 for stories by the raped women
I have never said the rapes were condoned by either the US government or officers (although officers and MP's raping were not 'rare'). I personally dont think they did enough to stop these things, but this is my view.

The problem with you two is that your seeing everything as too black and white.
There were bad and good people on both sides.

Earlier in this post one of you said I should say I was sorry.
I am not expecting that from you.
You will probably say I made this all up.


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## Red 6 (25 Aug 2007)

Well there's a fundamental difference between whorehouses set up in Allied occupation zones and what happenend under Japanese rule in the Pacific. There just is no comparison between the two. Yes, there were incidents of rape in Europe by US, Canadian, and British soldiers but this was no national policy and I am willing to bet it was a whole helluva lot less than you seem to think. It was people going outside the rules and regulations set by their forces. A lot more of what happened was business arrangements by desperate women and sex-starved GI's and Tommies. The Japanese government looked at Asian people under their control as sub-humans and exploited them to death. Comfort women were only one example, but this was national policy of the Japanese empire.


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## TCBF (25 Aug 2007)

I think Brig. Chis Vokes actually tried to set up a military brothel for a Cdn Bde in Italy.  I believe the idea was supported in theatre but shot down in England.  Been a while since I read his biography.


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## 1feral1 (25 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
> The a lot of the Americans had a field day......



Contradiction lad. Know the defination?

Saying the 'lot of Americans' had a field day of rape, and then comparing this to brothels is apples and oranges.

Sounds like you were judging the group and NOT the individuals??

Considering the quantity of Allied Forces in the occupation of Japan over the years of being there, the quantity of rape crimes is minimal. A statistical part of society is in every niech of people, including the military. Thieves, murderers, and rapists exist within them, most likely to a lesser degree in the general population. 

Wes


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## Roy Harding (25 Aug 2007)

FascistLibrarian:

No, I have NOT read that particular book - but I did find this review of it here (when spare funds allow, I will order the book):  http://ebooks.ebookmall.com/title/japan's-comfort-women-tanaka-ebooks.htm?




> Japan's Comfort Women tells the story of the "comfort women" who were forced to enter prostitution to serve the Japanese Imperial army, often living in appalling conditions of sexual slavery. Using a wide range of primary sources, Tanaka for the first time links military controlled prositution with enforced prostitution. He uncovers new and controversial information about the role of US occupation forces in military controlled prostitution, as well as the subsequent "cover-up" of the existence of such a policy. Tanaka asks why US occupation forces did little to help the women, and argues that military authorities organised prostitution to prevent the widespread incidence of GI rape of Japanese women, and to control the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. This groundbreaking book uncovers new material relating to the highly controversial and contentious issue of Japan's comfort women. It will have a deep impact on the ongoing international debate on this highly emotive issue.



Both your statements in earlier posts, and the above review talk about Japan's Comfort Women, and a lack of help from the US occupation forces.  No mention of "American" or "Allied" "Comfort Women".  This doesn't seem to support your argument that such facilities were officially endorsed or established by the Allies.

As for the rest of your argument, there is a fundamental difference between an individual soldier committing a crime (and hopefully being prosecuted for it), and the establishment of official sanctioned organizations, populated by what can reasonably be called slaves.

Were allied soldiers saints?  Absolutely not.  Did some allied soldiers commit rape, amongst other crimes?  Absolutely.  Was forced enslavement of anyone an official policy of any allied forces?  Absolutely not.

Your source and arguments do not support your contention.

Roy


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## FascistLibertarian (25 Aug 2007)

All I am saying is this is an issue that we dont like to address.
In the first hand accounts of Hong Kong our vets talk a lot about the women that could be paid for sex (they usually claim the other guys and not themselves were doing it of course). Rarely if ever mentioned in our secondary sources..... 
The American politicans who draft laws critizing the Japanese conduct would NEVER appologize for the conduct of their own soldiers during the occupation.
I never said it was offical us government policy or that it was as bad as what the Japanese did, that is not the point, just that our people were not all saints but no one wants to talk about the bad things our side did.
WOW

Because I said that Americans used controlled prostituion and there were many rapes during the occupation you guys flipped out.

But its okay because they were not as bad as the Japanese?
You two are real pieces of work you know that.
I guess anything less than what the Japanese did is alright with you?
As long as we didnt do as bad things as them then the bad things we did are all right?

Your the ones comparing two different things. The horrible things the Japanese did have nothing to do with the bad things the Americans did.
You two are unable to look at these things by themselves!
I think that the Americans who raped and those officers who set up military whorehouses are wrong.
But I guess its fine with you two because its not as bad as what the Japanese did.   :


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## FascistLibertarian (25 Aug 2007)

> Well there's a fundamental difference between whorehouses set up in Allied occupation zones and what happenend under Japanese rule in the Pacific. There just is no comparison between the two.



Please show where I compared them in severity?



> Saying the 'lot of Americans' had a field day of rape, and then comparing this to brothels is apples and oranges.



Please show where I compared the American rapists to brothels?


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## Roy Harding (25 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> Well I will not resort to name calling
> ...





			
				FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> ...
> You two are real pieces of work you know that.
> ...





			
				FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> ...
> I never said it was offical us government policy or that it was as bad as what the Japanese did, that is not the point, just that our people were not all saints but no one wants to talk about the bad things our side did.
> ...





			
				Roy Harding said:
			
		

> ...
> Were allied soldiers saints?  Absolutely not.  Did some allied soldiers commit rape, amongst other crimes?  Absolutely.  Was forced enslavement of anyone an official policy of any allied forces?  Absolutely not.
> ...


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
> The a lot of the Americans had a field day......



The implication was there with your first post. You set off a shit storm, as you seem to have intended, and now your trying to dodge it. "I didn't say.......", "I didn't mean.......". That kind of posting could almost be construed as trolling. Why don't you just take your lumps, stop posting about it, and let the thread follow it's natural course. 

Next time, spend a moment and compose your thoughts........and then tell us exactly what you mean and are talking about. It would've saved two pages of confusion.


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## 3rd Herd (25 Aug 2007)

Source:
http://www.webcom.com/hrin/parker/c95-11.html

UNITED NATIONS
COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS
Fifty-first session
Agenda item 11
War Rape
-"In our view, not only most countries but the entire international arena, including the United Nations itself, is effectively controlled by men and indeed made in men's image. This accounts for the failure until now to even address the situation of war rape, in spite of the fact that in all wars since the beginning to time, rape and violence against women have been a fundamental feature. This also accounts for the failure to raise the issue of violence against women sufficiently (or at all in some cases) in the post-World War II tribunals at Nuremberg and Tokyo, and why these issues are still before us today."

-"Taking the lowest figures, at any given time, there were about 20,000 jugun ianfu. Each of them was raped at least 5 times per day. That means that there were at least 100,000 rapes per day arranged by the Japanese authorities and carried out by its soldiers -- 100,000 rapists per day. 100,000 times at least five days per week equals at least 500,000 rapes per week -- or 2 million per month -- or 24 million per year. Even assuming only 5 years of the programme, there were at least 125 million rapes -- 125 million rapes against the women of Korea, Philippines, Burma, China, Taiwan, Indonesia, Netherlands."

Given the statiscs above the western allies  never even got on the grid. I have Red-6 some files that give the more or less accurate numbers of US rapes in WW2 and Korea. If you would like I can PM them to you from memory all just indivdual cases, no wholesale programs though.


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## 1feral1 (25 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> You two are real pieces of work you know that.



No, I just hate dealing with people of your calibre who post some of the most inert shyte, and at least I know my subject matter, and stay in my lane of expertise. I know when I have stepped over the line.

Like I said once, its your reputation and credibility on here, and right now, both couldn't even be used for toilet paper.

Get a life.


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## Greymatters (26 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> I, unlike you two, would rather judge the individual than the group.



Having relatives from Europe, in particular Germany and Holland, and who lived there during the period you mentioned, I would have to say your sources have exagerated the situation you are describing.


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## FascistLibertarian (27 Aug 2007)

I am not backpeddling at all.
I just dont get why you guys think that posting all the horrible stuff the Japanese did has anything to do with how our side conducted itself. The Pacific war was (as I am sure you all know) brutal and racist. While I feel our side had the moral superiority I also think that the bad things we did are glossed over. You all seem to think this means I think that all sides are equal or something (which is clearly never the case in any conflict or situation)

This reminds me of the people who when you start talking about the Japanese internment bring up how bad our boys in Hong Kong were treated. What does the second have to do with the first? We treated our Japanese citizens better than japan treated our POW's BUT thats not the issue.

Using hookers was never US offical policy. But it was known about and looked the other way at very high levels. The use of comfort women by the Japanese was well known, the US never tried anyone for this. And the US pretty much gave the okay for its soldiers to use Japanese comfort women after the war.

Sorry, I guess calling you pieces of work is name calling, I appologize.


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## geo (27 Aug 2007)

FL...
You might find that most err - pairings of Canadian with Brit / Italian / Dutch / French / Belgian / etc during the war were consentual arrangements.  

Rape is/was not a part of our service traditions.

Germans dehumanised their foes & that made the rape more or less acceptable
The Russians.... they were just getting even.


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## Red 6 (27 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> Using hookers was never US offical policy. But it was known about and looked the other way at very high levels. The use of comfort women by the Japanese was well known, the US never tried anyone for this. And the US pretty much gave the okay for its soldiers to use Japanese comfort women after the war.



So what if American Soldiers and Marines went to whorehouses and what made that in and of itself a war crime?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Aug 2007)

I don't really give a flying rats ass what happened back then....................because I had nothing to do with it, but, let me see if I got this straight.......

_Someone_ on this thread is comparing paying a woman for sex to making/forcing a woman to have sex?   Wow!!!


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## I_am_John_Galt (27 Aug 2007)

I just picked up on this thread - WTF?!?



			
				FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> I am not backpeddling at all.



Well, you* ABSOLUTELY SHOULD BE*!!!

On the subject of systemic state-sanctioned/tolerated rape in the course of war, you quite rightly broach the subject of Japan in WWII.  However, to have the temerity to *START *with 





			
				FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> The rape in the Pacific and esp the use of hookers by our side as well as the rapes in Japan during the occupation are never talked about.
> The a lot of the Americans had a field day......


 while *NOT EVEN MENTIONING* the issue of the _comfort women_ is insulting, provocative and disgusting in the _extreme_.  To view that as anything but highly prejudicial defies logic (and good taste):  only an idiot could spend more than five minutes on this site and think the people here are stupid enough accept this kind of crap at face value: 





> All I am saying is this is an issue that we dont like to address.


 ... 





> I just dont get why you guys think that posting all the horrible stuff the Japanese did has anything to do with how our side insulting, conducted itself. The Pacific war was (as I am sure you all know) brutal and racist. While I feel our side had the moral superiority I also think that the bad things we did are glossed over. You all seem to think this means I think that all sides are equal or something (which is clearly never the case in any conflict or situation)




P.S.: 





> Sorry, I guess calling you pieces of work is name calling, I appologize.


 Apologize has one p, genius.


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## FascistLibertarian (29 Aug 2007)

> while NOT EVEN MENTIONING the issue of the comfort women is insulting, provocative and disgusting in the extreme.  To view that as anything but highly prejudicial defies logic (and good taste):  only an idiot could spend more than five minutes on this site and think the people here are stupid enough accept this kind of crap at face value:



So when I talk about the bad things America did in the Pacific I have to mention what the Japanese did? Is that a fact? 
Like I couldn't just talk about the Rape of Berlin or the way the Nazis treated Gays or the way we treated the Japanese?
Why not?

Other people here seem content to label the Japanese as a singular group who were pretty much all bad. Everyone is expected to freely condemn the conduct of the entire Japanese Army. Yet if someone like me points out Americans were complicit in rape, organized prostitution, and (through the Japanese who arranged everything) the comfort women system they are condemned and labelled stupid and a troll. Because there was a fundamental difference in the severity (the Japanese behaved in a horrible manner, everyone knows this) I should not bring up the bad things Americans did? Why not? I'm sure the fundamental difference didn't matter to the women who was having sex with someone they didn't want to.

American troops raped a lot of Japanese. Exact numbers will probably never be known. If you were an American during or after Okinawa or landing on Japan for the occupation you pretty much had the ability to do what you wanted. After all, your side won, it was a horrible war against an evil enemy, and now its time to party! Its a classic situation where people are not going to be held accountable or responsible for their actions. Many of the people in the occupation force would feel Japan was getting whats coming to them. The Japanese government was mostly concerned mostly with keeping the Americans happy. Japanese communities formed groups for protection and tried to ensure their women were safe from rape (ie not alone at night). How legit their fears were is hard to say. This also of course has a lot to do with cultural and racial issues and the tough nature of that war. The horror of some of those last islands for the people that were there, the dehumanization of the enemy, not having access to women for a long time.
The American military set up military only brothels which than ran and moved around women in order to staff them and/or ensure white hookers.

These are facts and because they were not as horrible as what the Japanese did you think they
1) have no merit
2) are insulting to US Vets so should not be talked about

The Japanese comfort women system didn't stop in 1945 so know what your talking about before getting all high and mighty.
It went right on serving the Americans, except now it was mainly Japanese women and the wasn't a war on.
If it was so horrible, then why did the Americans not charge anyone for the system, and why did they keep using it?
Pretty easy to say it was bad now though, everyone pretty much agrees.

I am not saying these are the things we need to focus on, but they did happen, the Pacific War was brutal and the people who fought in it human.



> Rape is/was not a part of our service traditions.



I never said it was. I have never read anything to suggest otherwise. I am not saying rape is part of the American service tradition, but that there is evidence that it happened to a noticeable and historically important degree in certain specific situations. Rape has been a part of warfare for a long time (as people have pointed out). I am not saying the rapes in Okinawa and Japan are suprising, I wasn't there and cant judge.

The Japanese conducted themselves much better in other conflicts. The brutality of their system and the lousy or boring nature of their job doubtlessly contributed to how individual Japanese acted. As well hard resistence would often ensure the Japanese were brutal after a surrender. I have read reports of Japanese officers who killed soldiers on the spot who were accused by Canadians of raping women after the fall of Hong Kong. Different groups of Japanese handled different situations differently. Some of the time the women would be okay at first then get raped or taken to be a comfort women later.

This whole thing is a grey area where the Japanese are a hell of a lot darker than the Americans. I do not understand why you all think that because of this pointing out the bad Americans did is some kind of slander and I should say I am sorry.
The issue of forced prostitution and who was forced against their will to do what is really hard to prove (sadly).
That doesn't mean that the Americans are perfect and that they didn't do bad things. The issue of the conduct of American troops in this respect (the end of the pacific war and the occupation) is never talked about.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (29 Aug 2007)

Is there a point to this?


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## geo (29 Aug 2007)

FL,
I would ask you to provide your references for the amaazing number of rapes conducted by american GIs after the occupation of Japan.  
Excluding IwoJima & Okinawa, no US troops were on Japanese soil prior to the capitulation. Thereafter, in many Pacific regions, the US retained Japanese troops for security - they stayed armed.

By 1950, with the outbreak of the Korean war, the US were dependent on Japan as a main base & as Allies.

After the terms of surrender were signed, any rape would be punishable by the US authorities themselves - and I have no doubt that the US did in fact deal with the issue & did not tolerate rape in any way shape or form.


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## 1feral1 (30 Aug 2007)

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> Americans were complicit in rape



You are nothing but a trolling turd seeking an audience.

Shame on ya!

Mods lets lock this up?

Wes


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## Red 6 (30 Aug 2007)

Fascist Libertarian: I have been researching about the Pacific War for many years. Cite your sources for this claim — "American troops raped a lot of Japanese. " How many is "a lot"? Is it 10, 20, 75, 2,000, or what? This claim is totally without merit if your source isn't cited. I for one am of the opinion that our occupation of Japan was incredibly peaceful, especially considering how brutal the war had been. Were there instances of criminal conduct by members of the American forces? Yes, as there are by members of every military force. But they were certainly not the norm, nor were they a widespread pattern of criminal activity. The American servicemen who served in World War II were liberators, not oppressors.


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## geo (30 Aug 2007)

Red6
Also, per my last post, by the time US GIs made it to the Japanese islands, surrender had been signed & sealed & though occupation forces the country was at peace.


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