# Ultimate Soldier Challenge - USMC Force Recon vs Canadian Light Infantry



## MikeL (20 Mar 2013)

http://www.history.com/shows/ultimate-soldier-challenge/videos/playlists/full-episodes#ultimate-soldier-challenge-us-marine-force-recon-vs-canadian-light-infantry


By the intro I'm guessing the Canadians are PPCLI.  Anyone recognize them?


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## Robert0288 (20 Mar 2013)

Thank you for giving me something to watch tonight


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## MikeL (20 Mar 2013)

Don't thank me too much,  it's nothing special...


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## Robert0288 (20 Mar 2013)

2m in or less.  I agree.


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## ballz (20 Mar 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> By the intro I'm guessing the Canadians are PPCLI.  Anyone recognize them?



"Alex" is from 2VP, he's a Captain working in Gagetown at the moment. He's fit, competitive, and a good dude.


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## Jungle (20 Mar 2013)

I watched the beginning... looks like a regular "mil skills" type competition; doesn't seem to be anything "ultimate" about it...


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## cupper (20 Mar 2013)

The contractors were a couple of d-bags. And "Alex" is definitely the king of jambs. Otherwise, typical reality show schlock.  :


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## ballz (20 Mar 2013)

cupper said:
			
		

> And "Alex" is definitely the king of jambs.



I mean, I thought if they were gonna rig it for the yanks they'd make the explosive stuff behind the tgts smaller for the Canadians so it was less likely they'd hit it, but effing up all their wpns??? They weren't discreet about cheating at all! :Tin-Foil-Hat:


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## cupper (21 Mar 2013)

That was my thought as well. Seriously, what are the odds that the same guy has a different weapon jamb each time.


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## Kilo_302 (21 Mar 2013)

The show is obviously idiotic, and it's probably not even worth commenting on...but I can't resist. It's interesting that it pit "Canadian light infantry" against Marine Recon and contractors who were supposedly ex-SF. What a joke.


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## Jarnhamar (21 Mar 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> The show is obviously idiotic, and it's probably not even worth commenting on...but I can't resist. It's interesting that it pit "Canadian light infantry" against Marine Recon and contractors who were supposedly ex-SF. What a joke.




I can see if it was DEVGRU or DELTA pitting them against Canadian light infantry.  Only Force recon and Spec ops? We should have just sent some mech infantry.


 :camo:


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## cupper (21 Mar 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I can see if it was DEVGRU or DELTA pitting them against Canadian light infantry.  Only Force recon and Spec ops? We should have just sent some mech infantry.
> 
> 
> :camo:



Or the RCAF? ;D


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## Jungle (21 Mar 2013)

cupper said:
			
		

> Or the RCAF? ;D



no.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Mar 2013)

I didn't see it. Did we win? I assume we lost the 'Redman spitting stand'


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## PPCLI Guy (22 Mar 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I can see if it was DEVGRU or DELTA pitting them against Canadian light infantry.  Only Force recon and Spec ops? We should have just sent some mech infantry.
> 
> 
> :camo:



Not far wrong.  I have heard it said that Canada does not have any infantry battalions - it has 9 tier 2 SOF units, as given the level and degree of our training, we would be employed as such in any other Army.


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## chowchow1 (22 Mar 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Not far wrong.  I have heard it said that Canada does not have any infantry battalions - it has 9 tier 2 SOF units, as given the level and degree of our training, we would be employed as such in any other Army.



Did you really just say that? Having worked with a lot of other infantry units from around the world, we are are pretty on par with the standard. Comparing us to USMC FR, which is  the SF of the marines is an unfair, and unfit comparison. There is a very tough selection, and the course is brutal. Anyone who wants to compare Canadian army battle school to USMC FR, watch the video 'Making the Cut' with them in it.

While I didnt watch the video, I can imagine it is about as accurate as that ridiculous show that was on Spike TV that compared random fighting forces... I forget the name. But it would put random forces against each other. I remember one was the Taliban vs. the IRA.

Each fighting force has what it is good at. Are we better than the Americans at cold weather ops? I would sure hope so! Are the Marines better than us at amphibious ops? Yeah, Im willing to bet they are! This is just like the debate of SEALS vs SAS or stupid s*** like that.


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## George Wallace (22 Mar 2013)

I am surprised no one has commented on the lack of the "high and tight".


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## daftandbarmy (22 Mar 2013)

chowchow1 said:
			
		

> Did you really just say that? Having worked with a lot of other infantry units from around the world, we are are pretty on par with the standard. Comparing us to USMC FR, which is  the SF of the marines is an unfair, and unfit comparison. There is a very tough selection, and the course is brutal. Anyone who wants to compare Canadian army battle school to USMC FR, watch the video 'Making the Cut' with them in it.
> 
> While I didnt watch the video, I can imagine it is about as accurate as that ridiculous show that was on Spike TV that compared random fighting forces... I forget the name. But it would put random forces against each other. I remember one was the Taliban vs. the IRA.
> 
> Each fighting force has what it is good at. Are we better than the Americans at cold weather ops? I would sure hope so! Are the Marines better than us at amphibious ops? Yeah, Im willing to bet they are! This is just like the debate of SEALS vs SAS or stupid s*** like that.



Having worked against  the US Army and US Marines as enemy force, I tend to agree with PPCLI Hombre.

:nod:


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## George Wallace (22 Mar 2013)

chowchow1 said:
			
		

> ........ Having worked with a lot of other infantry units from around the world, we are are pretty on par with the standard.


I have no idea where you were or who you trained with, but your statements seem totally out to lunch to me.

I agree with daftandbarmy and PPCLI Guy.  I have worked with the soldiers of many nations and I can easily say, that our Ptes and Cpls are leagues above those of the majority of other nations.  Take a look at the normal/base working rank in the US and it is Sgt.  Our Cpls and Ptes know more than those Sgts.  The NATO rank of E5, places those Sgts at the same level as our MCpls.  Our overall, all around, training is many levels above those of foreign nations.    

I would even say that the Aussies, Kiwis and us, are better than the Line UK soldiers and US soldiers.  Do they have elite units?  Yes they do; and they have some very fine soldiers in them.  So do we.  Our elite units do basically what the Canadian soldier has been doing for decades, just now we actually went and separated some of those roles off to "special" units and added a few formerly RCMP tasks.  Sadly, it is an indicator that we are swinging a bit to the American way of having soldiers becoming "specialists" and all the problems that entails.  (Crews that made ineffective by the loss of one member.)  

Historically, the Canadian soldier/sailor/airman has been very highly respected in the profession of arms.


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## MikeL (22 Mar 2013)

chowchow1 said:
			
		

> Comparing us to USMC FR, which is  the SF of the marines is an unfair, and unfit comparison. There is a very tough selection, and the course is brutal. Anyone who wants to compare Canadian army battle school to USMC FR, watch the video 'Making the Cut' with them in it.



*Surviving the Cut

I believe you are referring to the episode about the Basic Reconnaissance Course.  That course is for Recon Battalion Marines,  not Force Recon.  


Our military is well trained,  but IMO our Infantry Battalions are not the equivalent of other nations SOF.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Take a look at the normal/base working rank in the US and it is Sgt.  Our Cpls and Ptes know more than those Sgts.  The NATO rank of E5, places those Sgts at the same level as our MCpls.  Our overall, all around, training is many levels above those of foreign nations.



I'm sure there are a number of US Army and USMC Sgts that are quite good at their jobs and know more then our Ptes and Cpls.  Some may not,  but I think it's unfair to make a blanket statement such as our Ptes/Cpls know more then their Sgts.  

The NATO code is OR-5,  the US Military uses the E coding.

As for our MCpls being equal to a US Sgt,  not sure how you see that as us being above the Americans.  We use different rank structures so not every rank is going to match up,  such as our Sgt to their Sgt(E5).  Equiv to our Sergeant is their Staff Sergeant(E6),  both are OR-6 on the NATO code.  As well our Cpls are equiv to a US Cpl on the NATO rank code (OR-4)


As well,  US Army and USMC Infantry can use mortars,  while for us it is an Artillery weapon  



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Our elite units do basically what the Canadian soldier has been doing for decades, just now we actually went and separated some of those roles off to "special" units and added a few formerly RCMP tasks.  Sadly, it is an indicator that we are swinging a bit to the American way of having soldiers becoming "specialists" and all the problems that entails.  (Crews that made ineffective by the loss of one member.)



Can you give an example of tasks being taken away from the Conventional Military/Infantry Battalion that is now only done by SOF?  And how this will cause problems later on?  

I've only been in the CF in the 2000s,  so I'm not sure what it was like or how units were employed in the 90s, etc but AFAIK our Infantry are still doing their job with no changes,  if anything they have had to do some new tasks such as training/mentoring(OMLT) - Not sure if this was done before or not.


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## George Wallace (22 Mar 2013)

-Skeletor-

Of course it is a rather broad generalization, basically in reply to just as broad an generalization.  We could go for days getting into the weeds.

You are correct,  OR not E.  

Have to go now....Off to Pet for the weekend.


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## MikeL (22 Mar 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> We could go for days getting into the weeds.



Very true




			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Off to Pet for the weekend.



Being punished?


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Mar 2013)

This was a better contest  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsPIzRsUtlE


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## chowchow1 (22 Mar 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> *Surviving the Cut
> 
> I believe you are referring to the episode about the Basic Reconnaissance Course.  That course is for Recon Battalion Marines,  not Force Recon.



Deep Reconnaissance Platoons, or DRPs, are units within Recon Battalions that carry out the role of Force Reconnaissance. So my statement was fair.

I am not even going to touch on the other stuff said here. The fact that people think that regular Canadian infantry units are pretty much special forces shows just how out to lunch some people are.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Mar 2013)

It's a stupid arguement.

Everyone chill.

*Milnet.ca Fun Police*


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## MikeL (22 Mar 2013)

chowchow1 said:
			
		

> Deep Reconnaissance Platoons, or DRPs, are units within Recon Battalions that carry out the role of Force Reconnaissance. So my statement was fair.



I missed a word there,  meant to say "That course is for Recon Battalion Marines,  not Force Recon specifically."  As everyone(minus supporters such as clerks, supply, etc) going to the Recon Battalion takes the course to earn the Reconnaissance Man MOS,  not just those going to the Force Recon Company.





			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> It's a stupid arguement.



Serious argument now... I bet my dad can beat up your dad  ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Mar 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Serious argument now... I bet my dad can beat up your dad  ;D



OH...OH YEAH?


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## Pte. Jay (22 Mar 2013)

I can't watch it! It says "This content is not available"... Some help?


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Mar 2013)

JayB said:
			
		

> I can't watch it! It says "This content is not available"... Some help?



Save the frustartion for something worthy.

It's not worth the 45 minutes. Heck, it's not even worth the first 4.5 minutes.


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## Pte. Jay (22 Mar 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Save the frustartion for something worthy.
> 
> It's not worth the 45 minutes. Heck, it's not even worth the first 4.5 minutes.


Alright, I'll take your word for it.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Mar 2013)

chowchow1 said:
			
		

> Deep Reconnaissance Platoons, or DRPs, are units within Recon Battalions that carry out the role of Force Reconnaissance. So my statement was fair.
> 
> I am not even going to touch on the other stuff said here. The fact that people think that regular Canadian infantry units are pretty much special forces shows just how out to lunch some people are.



No, Mech Infantry are like Special Forces.  Light Infantry is more DEVGRU, CAG & CIA operators (whatever their name is this month). And I'm putting in a meal claim for that lunch.




			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Save the frustartion for something worthy.
> 
> It's not worth the 45 minutes. Heck, it's not even worth the first 4.5 minutes.



I found the choice of weapons they used interesting. Ruger 1911's, KRISS Vectors seemed like random picks.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Mar 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I found the choice of weapons they used interesting. Ruger 1911's, KRISS Vectors seemed like random picks.



I'm guessing both the WindRunner and the Kriss were reasonably unfamiliar to all.

Being a .45 shooter myself, I would say anyone unfamiliar with the recoil (both US teams aren't, but the Canadians likely were) would come as a bit of a suprise. The principles are the same, but the end effect in the hand are not. They handled it well, but seconds counted.

I'm pretty sure you know where I'm coming from. 

And either 'Alex" is the most unlucky bastard in the world with stoppages or there was a failure of the production crew to ensure that everything was equal.

I guess it would boil down to if there was a familiarization of the weapons before the cameras started rolling.

I have trouble believing it would have even aired had the Canadians wiped both US teams asses with nettles.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Mar 2013)

So. I 'm guessing that Canada lost, right?

 :


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