# is it turn around in the industry?



## weiss (30 Mar 2007)

As my security clearance drags on, I went to flying school to poke around for civilian options.  My contingency plan was (is) to get instructor's rating and instruct part-time till my tuition is paid off or airline company picks me up.  So, I sent a few e-mails with questions and responce was all positive - very doable plan in short.  In flying school I hear that if I get my rating through them I may consider myself hired right away as an instructor.  They say airline companies scoop up their instructors all the time with minimal hours.  As far as I can remember it wasn't like this a year or two ago.   I do not know why would anybody rush to join airforce if there employment prospects are good.  All you need is 30 grand some and 10 months of intense training.  

I applied in 2005, so its almost 2 years of waiting now.  Since then I got divorced, married and divorced again.  I mean come on, get real people, do I look like mujaheddin?


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## cda84 (30 Mar 2007)

weiss said:
			
		

> I do not know why would anybody rush to join airforce if there employment prospects are good.



If you don't understand that then don't join the CF.

I wouldn't trade going to work everyday with a Canadian flag on my shoulder for anything else in the world!


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## weiss (31 Mar 2007)

cda84,  you are absolutely right, there are reasons to join beyond the just a "descent job" thing.  Would I be given an offer I would never consider anything else.  But by the time I get an offer, (if ever! ) it will be close to 3 years since my first appearance in recruiting centre.  So, three years of waiting and after all you may never make it.  And then if you make it it will take another 2.5 years before you can actually say you are a pilot and flying is what you do for a living. Those 5 years could fetch 600 hours with all ratings, ATPL, and all your tuition paid off.  Like I said - there are reasons to join, I myself do not know any commercial outfit that will operate Hornets for example.   But its not a secret that good half of younger flock joins specifically to use forces as stepping stone for their civilian career in aviation.  This is sad part, because I will have to elbow my way through the crowd of those guys.


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## I_Drive_Planes (31 Mar 2007)

weiss said:
			
		

> In flying school I hear that if I get my rating through them I may consider myself hired right away as an instructor.  They say airline companies scoop up their instructors all the time with minimal hours.



These are the two oldest lines in the book!  If you really believe that I have a great piece of ocean view property in Saskatchewan that I will sell you cheap.  They have hooked many a flight student with statements like that.  If you want to know about career prospects do not talk to a flight school, talk to the companies doing the hiring, and pilots who work for those companies.  www.avcanada.ca is an excellent resource for someone looking to get into the industry, do some searches and ask some questions there.  Don't get discouraged with the military, your time will come.

Planes


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## Globesmasher (31 Mar 2007)

weiss said:
			
		

> I do not know why would anybody rush to join airforce if there employment prospects are good.  All you need is 30 grand some and 10 months of intense training.



It all boils down to personal choice.  Some people are happy to pursue the civil side of aviation and remain there entirely, while others prefer to reside on the military aviation side of the house.  True, some of those in uniform leave and join the airlines, while others stay .... it all boils down to personal choice.  There are those who have stayed, and there are those who have left for the airlines, only to turn around and come straight back into the CF after they found that the civilian side was not to their liking - or was not what they had expected.

It is all personal choice.  There are pros and cons to each one.

If you choose not to wait for however long to join the CF and pursue a military aviation career, then no worries, it sounds like you have a plan B in mind on the civilian side of the house.

It all boils down to personal choice - but remember one thing.

Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.
One side of the fence is not greener than the other - just a different shade of green.
Whether or not the grass is greener on the other side is entirely up to the "eye of the beholder".  You're the only one who can determine which side of the fence is better for you.

I highly recommend you follow "I Drive Planes" advice and check out the avcanada forums.
And, in the same vain, here is another forum for you to check out:  http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/

Arm yourself with the best information available to your before making your choice.
Either way that is what it all boils down to  .......... your own personal choice.
And only you can make the one that is right for you.
It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks of your choice - its your life to live.


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## Inch (31 Mar 2007)

weiss said:
			
		

> cda84,  you are absolutely right, there are reasons to join beyond the just a "descent job" thing.  Would I be given an offer I would never consider anything else.  But by the time I get an offer, (if ever! ) it will be close to 3 years since my first appearance in recruiting centre.  So, three years of waiting and after all you may never make it.  And then if you make it it will take another 2.5 years before you can actually say you are a pilot and flying is what you do for a living. Those 5 years could fetch 600 hours with all ratings, ATPL, and all your tuition paid off.  Like I said - there are reasons to join, I myself do not know any commercial outfit that will operate Hornets for example.   But its not a secret that good half of younger flock joins specifically to use forces as stepping stone for their civilian career in aviation.  This is sad part, because I will have to elbow my way through the crowd of those guys.



That's nothing, I first applied for pilot in Jan of 1997, I got my wings in Apr of 2004, then finally finished my Sea King course in July of 2005, that's 8.5 years before I flew an operational mission in the CF. It is not the fast track to the airlines, you're not going to bag 1000 hrs a year like you do on the civvie side, in most cases, you'd be lucky to get 500 hrs a year.

Take Globesmasher's advice, it's all up to the individual. No where in the civilian industry will I land a 72 ft long, 20,500 lb helicopter onto a 430 ft ship that's pitching up to 5 degrees and rolling up to 20 degrees, at night, 500 miles from land.

If you're looking for a cozy airline job, the CF is not the best way to get there. If you're looking for a chance to do something that only 1200 or so other people in Canada get to do, then the CF is a perfect fit.


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## I_am_John_Galt (31 Mar 2007)

Perhaps another way to look at is that they are pipelining guys on the Multi courses C-17*: +/- 250 hours and they are going to be flying that beast!!!  Looks pretty good compared to being an Instructor on a 172 or whatever ...

------
*RUMINT has it that they are going to be pipelining Helo guys on H-92 and Chinooks.


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## Inch (31 Mar 2007)

I_am_John_Galt said:
			
		

> *RUMINT has it that they are going to be pipelining Helo guys on H-92 and Chinooks.



There was never a doubt about that happening.


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## I_am_John_Galt (31 Mar 2007)

Inch said:
			
		

> There was never a doubt about that happening.



Cool ... I'd heard it was a "lesson learned" from the Cormorant, but not confirmation.


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## RetiredRoyal (5 Apr 2007)

I was in, then I was out, now I'm processing my way back in. I have a very good civilian job with seniority, stability, pension...all the stuff most people would want.

I've missed putting on the blue bag and black cadillacs every day i've been out. I'm looking forward to serving again.


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## weiss (5 Apr 2007)

I_Drive_Planes said:
			
		

> These are the two oldest lines in the book!  If you really believe that I have a great piece of ocean view property in Saskatchewan that I will sell you cheap.  They have hooked many a flight student with statements like that.  .
> 
> Planes



Thanks for the warning.   I would take those comments from flying school with a bit of doubt too.  But those are the same people who advised me about job finding hurdles about 2 years ago.  They were saying that before taking the plunge prospective students should be aware and bla bla.  That is why I thought that something has changed.  In my field there is huge demographic decline in skilled workforce.   It takes 12 years on the average to get where I am at now and there are no younger fellas flowing in.  People were hired right off the street into regular position while before normal folks would have to bottom-feed as casual for at leas 3-4 years.   I thought maybe the same thing creep into aviation industry as well.


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## Loachman (9 Apr 2007)

weiss said:
			
		

> Those 5 years could fetch 600 hours with all ratings, ATPL, and all your tuition paid off.



I wouldn't say that that's impossible, but don't set yourself up for disappointment either. And unless instructor pay has increased dramatically in the last few years you're not going to be paying off much after subtracting living costs. Many civ instructors that I knew (and not living with their parents) had another job as well.



> But its not a secret that good half of younger flock joins specifically to use forces as stepping stone for their civilian career in aviation.  This is sad part, because I will have to elbow my way through the crowd of those guys.



That was the case when I was doing my PFC in 1979 as well. Satisfyingly, not one of them made it through. Motivation is a very real requirement, and none of them had it. You should not, therefore, be doing much elbowing. That's irrelevant in any case. Meeting or exceeding the standard through hard work is what will get you through, along with a little natural ability and a bit of luck to round that out.


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## Looking4Higher (10 Apr 2007)

As someone who has done the opposite to popular practice, I will attempt to shed some light on this topic.  I started my career in the civie world working as an instructor and eventually becoming CFI (Chief Flight Instructor) of a college level flight training program.  I would leave that glamorous side of the industry to work as a Regional Airline Pilot. Throughout all this I was a infantry reservist.  

One day I was approached and asked if I would like to combine my part-time military career with my full time flying career, and why wouldn't I.  A chance to fullfill a life long dream and job stability!

With regard to flight schools and instructing.  Be prepared to work long hours for little pay, very little pay.  Most Class IV instructors will only make approx $10 - $15 per billing hour max.  To put this in perspective, most flight schools will require you to be on site at the school for the better part of the day working dispatch or whatever (unpaid) until your only client for the day shows up late or cancels, but you would only be paid for the briefing time and flight time that was spent with the client.  If you are lucky some schools will pay you a salary.  Yes you can expect your pay to go up IF you choose to increase your level of instructor rating.  The amount of flight hours will also vary school to school depending on the size and number of instructors.  A small school with 1-2 aircraft you could expect to fly up to 600 hours a year max. A large school with 5+ aircraft you could easily fly 750+ hours in a year. Again it is dependant on number of aircraft/instructors as well as client base.

As far as the Regional Airline/Charter side, worst case you will be flown to the max, the CARs will be interpreted to benefit the operater which usually means you'll get screwed.  You will be forced persuaded to make the trip regardless of things like weather. Best case you will find youself in a wonderful organization where you do not question the maintenance of the aircraft your securely strapped into.  Pay can range from $23g's a year as an FO to $70g's max.   

The rule of thumb is that as the aircraft get bigger so does the pay and you will get treated more humanly.

In my experience no matter the company or how the aircraft are maintained, its people the other crew and mechanics you work with that will make the experience enjoyable.  And as with any job in any industry there are bad companies that probably shouldn't be in business, and great companies that you wish could multiply like rabbits!  Takes all kinds to make the world go around. 

The civie airline industry, especially the Majors, only work with a 3-5% profit margin.  With fuel prices, landing fees, wages, etc. all adding up the airline industry is always riding the economic roller coaster.  Yeah there may be great movement now which will always have a trickle down effect onto the regional airlines with draws from charter companies which inturn hires from flight schools and float operators. And that is a great selling point for the flight schools who "always hire instructors that they have trained", but once something caused the flying public to stop or not fly as much everything clams up and people get squeezed out at all levels.

A friend of mine worked for a reputable Regional Airline and got laid off in 2002, ended up working in Home Depot for a year and a half waiting for the company to call him back to work.  Luckily they did.  Others that I know and have learned about were not as luck and left the industry all together.

Bottom line, if you have the desire to fly whether it be civie or military don't be afraid to follow that dream. It will always be an uphill battle but well worth it when you reach your goal.  If you have any doubt or are worried about how much money you're going to make, don't bother you will get frustrated and give up.  I have seen it in both cases.

I have always wanted to fly, my dream was to fly military aircraft that looks like it will be coming true soon.  I started in the civie world and worked my way through the BS and crap and made to the airlines where my career to an odd turn into the military.  I don't think I would change my experiences but would advise anyone who is looking into flying as a career with truth and enthusiasm.

Still Looking!

Thanks


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## SteveB (20 Apr 2007)

To answer your question, yes it is a turn around in the industry.  That said, aviation has always been cyclic.  There is every chance that by the time you have completed your instructor rating there will be another downturn and you will be unemployed.  Having spent 7 years as a reservist and having several mil pilot friends, I would be tempted to say that civilian flying in Canada is just about the only civilian pursuit that pays less, requires more time away from home and puts you consistently in more remote areas than its military equivalent.

Before reaching the major airlines, civilian pilots in Canada will have to go north.  Living in remote northern communities makes the most spartan CFB seem palatial.  You may think places like Cold Lake or Bagotville are out of the way, but look up Norman Wells, Big Trout Lake and Pangnirtung.  In the first decade of his career, a civilian pilot will be guaranteed to make far less than his military counterpart.  Another aspect of civilian flying that I did not contemplate until I was out of instructing and into a 703 operation was the frequently low quality of pilots you will be forced to fly with.  You expect a wide variation in skill and commitment from private pilot students seeking training for recreational purposes, but you would think that professional pilots would be, well, professional.  This doesn't mean that no civilian pilots aren't excellent aviators, just that there is an appreciable fraction of slugs that stick around for years.  

The military has no problem grounding a pilot right up to the day they retire.  Small civilian operators are unwilling to "waste" the money spent on training by firing a pilot once they have completed the majority of their training.  It costs around $15, 000 to send a pilot to Flight Safety for even a King Air PPC.  This means corners are frequently cut in training at small companies.  Once again, some companies are excellent, just that there is a huge variation in the industry.

Lastly, there is the nature of the flying.  The most interesting flying in civilian aviation is in the smaller planes.  Float flying and off airport fixed wing operations are likely the most challenging flying around from a hands and feet aspect as well as requiring good decision making skills.  Too bad they pay less than a job at Air Canada.

If I had it all to do over, I would have concentrated on my education and applied for the air force as soon as I could because the one thing that the military can't seem to do is administer itself, IE it will take a long time to get from CFRC to cockpit.  There is a supposed air crew shortage and still they take years to process applications.  The military at least in peacetime, and NDHQ is at peace, can't get their faeces together and move/burn paper to meet most emergencies.  If I have received a shock over military affairs, it has been the successful ADCANs in the last few years.  If only a massive reduction in the bureaucracy forced on the military could be placed in an IOR.

To sum up, any flying job is better than the alternative but, be prepared to work long and hard as a civie or in the CF, just be ready to wait longer in the CF and be paid less as a civie.


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## weiss (21 Apr 2007)

Thank you Steve.  I think I know how interesting it is flying smaller planes.  I flew glider today for over 4 hours.  I couldn't walk straight after the flight.  I was working evey bump of lift, following  terrain so close I could see eyes of mountain goats.   Dehydrated, hypoxic, frozen but man was I happy.


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