# cmbt engr vs inf



## frodo (4 Feb 2011)

so i understand getting into the army at all in april will be a task in itself.

which is why ive decided to apply as a combat engineer, my question is though, would i still be able to go on patrols while on tour or do engineers stay on base for the entire tour?

also, on the cf site it says inf can qualify for specialty training, in particular airborne, can an engineer do this training? since this just gets me all sorts of riled up when i think about it.

also how hard is it to qualify for EOD and do they operate along side CSOR?


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## Sapplicant (4 Feb 2011)

Their secondary role is to fight as infantry.



Edit to add:

I'm not in the forces, nor am I a recruiter. I'm just stating that based on the job description found on the recruiting website, Forces.ca.
I think it's safe to say that engineers spend more than enough time "outside the wire", considering how many have been lost in recent years, may they rest in peace.


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## frodo (4 Feb 2011)

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> Their secondary role is to fight as infantry.



i understand what this means. but in reality, how often does that happen? are there engineers in infantry platoons? 

what im really asking is what does a week on tour look like for a combat engineer, compared to an infantryman


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## Sapplicant (4 Feb 2011)

I edited my first post. I'm sure someone with TI will be along shortly. I'm not an expert, and have yet to be merit listed.


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## MikeL (4 Feb 2011)

Combat Engineers are very busy on tour, at least from what I saw. Some were attached to Cbt Teams/Coys on Ops, others were building up FOBs, etc. Also saw some rotate through the TOC working in the ESCC.  I'm sure theres tons of info and a lot more detail into what Engineers do on roto are on this forum, just need to search or wait untill one of the Engineers on the board sees this.

All trades can attend the Basic Para Course

If you want to work with CSOR, you would have to apply for the unit as either an Operator or Support.

Here's some articles on Canadian Egnineers in Afghanistan
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/81232.0
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lfwa/tf309/feature_eroc.asp
http://www.comfec-cefcom.forces.gc.ca/pa-ap/fs-ev/2009/12/07b-eng.asp


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## frodo (4 Feb 2011)

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> I edited my first post. I'm sure someone with TI will be along shortly. I'm not an expert, and have yet to be merit listed.



thanks for you input, im starting to feel like i'll never get in!


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## Michael OLeary (4 Feb 2011)

frodo said:
			
		

> which is why ive decided to apply as a combat engineer, my question is though, would i still be able to go on patrols while on tour or do engineers stay on base for the entire tour?



You will accompany the infantry if you are tasked to do so, that depends on the Force structure (i.e., are engineers assigned to the element doing the patrolling), the task requirement (is there a need for an engineer?), and the chance that you get picked.  It happens, don't plan your life based on it happening to you.



			
				frodo said:
			
		

> also, on the cf site it says inf can qualify for specialty training, in particular airborne, can an engineer do this training? since this just gets me all sorts of riled up when i think about it.



Every trade has specialist training course, chances are always slim of being the right guy at the right time and place to get on course.  Getting on a specialty course that primarily goes to other trades is it even harder to achieve.  Not impossible, just not something you can't plan for - right place, right time, and on the top of the Sergeant Major's list for a good opportunity.



			
				frodo said:
			
		

> also how hard is it to qualify for EOD and do they operate along side CSOR?



EOD is an engineer specialty, one of our resident Sappers can answer to the likelihood of actually getting it.  

Engineers can join CSOR.

Spend some time searching the site for your specific and related questions to find more info that has already been posted by experienced people.


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## Alea (4 Feb 2011)

frodo said:
			
		

> thanks for you input, im starting to feel like i'll never get in!



Oh boy?! Really?!
How can you get "discouraged" based on a few answers on the forum?
Before saying that, I suggest you go read some of Sapplicant's story and think again about "being discouraged".

And for your info, some people on the forum and in general have been waiting for a long time to get in the CF so hang in there and follow your dream in order to reach it if that is really what you want.

Alea


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## frodo (4 Feb 2011)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Combat Engineers are very busy on tour, at least from what I saw. Some were attached to Cbt Teams/Coys on Ops, others were building up FOBs, etc. Also saw some rotate through the TOC working in the ESCC.  I'm sure theres tons of info and a lot more detail into what Engineers do on roto are on this forum, just need to search or wait untill one of the Engineers on the board sees this.
> 
> All trades can attend the Basic Para Course
> 
> ...



awesome, can you choose whether you want to be on a combat team or do construction/other stuff? or atleast make it look like you should be in one of those areas?

when you say all trades can attend the basic para course, this doesnt mean you would be "airbourne" would it?

thanks for the links ill check them out in a bit, as im at work right now and we're about to get busy again.


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## Michael OLeary (4 Feb 2011)

You can say what type of employment within your trade that you would like to have, and you will be sent where the Army needs you.

All trades can attend the basic para course; but not everyone gets to go just because they want to.


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## Nfld Sapper (4 Feb 2011)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> EOD is an engineer specialty, one of our resident Sappers can answer to the likelihood of actually getting it.



If the OP is thinking about going PRes it is very very hard to get on this course.....the TP actually stats to the effect Reservists need not apply...


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## MikeL (4 Feb 2011)

frodo said:
			
		

> awesome, can you choose whether you want to be on a combat team or do construction/other stuff? or atleast make it look like you should be in one of those areas?
> 
> when you say all trades can attend the basic para course, this doesnt mean you would be "airbourne" would it?
> 
> thanks for the links ill check them out in a bit, as im at work right now and we're about to get busy again.



I'm not an Engineer so I have no idea how it works for new Sappers posted to a CER and where they start out, etc  Usually you have no say in what you do, especially as a brand new troop.

When I say all trades can do Basic Para, that is what I mean..  You can attend the course, if you pass you are Basic Parachutist Qualified and wear the red maple leaf wings.  The only pers on Airborne status in the Regular Army are those in the Jump Companies, which are in the 3rd Battalion of an Infantry Regiment. Engineers are not in the Jump Coys, and I'm not sure if the CERs have any pers on a casual jumper status and get attached the the Jump Coys for Excercises and jump in, etc.

Oh and don't count on getting the jump course, at least not for awhile. It isn't the easiest course to get onto, as there isn't to many courses run each year. I've been waiting 5 years and counting to get a spot on that course.


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## Flips13 (5 Feb 2011)

When i was with 3vp para company, it was course loaded as > CSOR (Any type including clerks) > ppl in the para company > than if theres room bring someone from the outside. I had a Engineer on my course from 1 CER I guess he scored well enough to come on it. I'm sure he had to beat out alot of people to get a position on it.


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## frodo (8 Feb 2011)

Interesting stuff guys thanks a lot.

wondering what factors affect your ability to qualify for eod training? experience? good record, etc?


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## Towards_the_gap (10 Feb 2011)

....ability to tie your own shoes?

Your likelihood to get on an EOD course will depend on time in, whether you want it or not, and whether your troop leadership trusts you enough to not make a fool of yourself on the course.

As for sappers outside the wire, as -Skeletor- alluded to, on the last tour we, as a squadron, were both inside and outside the wire. My section spent the majority of time on patrols, outside the wire, and living at a COP, attached integral to a rifle platoon.

You cannot choose if you will do this or build camps. Where and how you work is dictated by the ESCC according to where the engineers are needed most. And there are never enough of us.

Having said that, I, as a section commander, would have no problems NOT taking someone on patrol if they were not up to snuff. Where we worked was that dangerous that I could not afford to have someone junk out on the ground with me.


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## frodo (10 Feb 2011)

so essentially, if you aren't a tool, you have seniority and you're lucky enough, you can train to become EOD? 

also i was wondering, is this a decent trade to go into? im interested in it and i want to go into it, but i need to know if I'm up for it.


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## lethalLemon (10 Feb 2011)

frodo said:
			
		

> so essentially, if you aren't a tool, you have seniority and you're lucky enough, you can train to become EOD?
> 
> also i was wondering, is this a decent trade to go into? im interested in it and i want to go into it, but i need to know if I'm up for it.



Every trade is a decent trade if you're interested in it.


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## Towards_the_gap (10 Feb 2011)

Well, it's a bit more than just not being a tool. You can be the most switched on soldier in your unit, and still bomb (pardon the pun) out on your EOD course. Some just don't have the aptitude for it, no matter how hard they try. 

And what do you mean by trade? Combat Engineer?

Sure it's decent. By no means easy, nor is it for everyone. Well tell a lie.. most people can do it judging by the quality of new troops who turn up at the regiment, but not many can do it well. 

The sheer breadth of what you could possibly find yourself doing in the engineers normally is the big seller. On tour, you could spend one day doing carpentry, one day doing high risk search, one day doing explosive demolitions, one day in gunfights...etc etc.


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## frodo (11 Feb 2011)

do you know what the dropout rate is? 

being good at what i do is a must, where i come from youre either the best, or you aren't even on the radar.... 

im really excited to apply once april hits, would you say the day to day life of a combat engineer on tour is more interesting than that of an infantryman? based on your opinion of course.

thanks.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Feb 2011)

frodo said:
			
		

> do you know what the dropout rate is?
> 
> being good at what i do is a must, where i come from youre either the best, or you aren't even on the radar....
> 
> ...



Here's a hint: if you want to be a Combat Engineer you need to be good at 'searching'. Look around, there's lots of info out there like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23SfrmqdL8Y


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## PMedMoe (11 Feb 2011)

frodo said:
			
		

> do you know what the dropout rate is?
> 
> being good at what i do is a must, where i come from youre either the best, or you aren't even on the radar....
> 
> ...



You've been on here since Oct 2010.  I'm pretty sure you've read the Forum Guidelines.  Please attempt to use proper capitalization, punctuation, etc.  You want to be the best?  There's a good place to start.


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## frodo (11 Feb 2011)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Here's a hint: if you want to be a Combat Engineer you need to be good at 'searching'. Look around, there's lots of info out there like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23SfrmqdL8Y



      This is just one of a few resources I am using to gather information. Thanks for the link I'll check it out when I have time.

     I was under the impression my grammar was acceptable, after all I'm posting at work and I don't usually have enough time to proof read the hell out of what I type.


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## Towards_the_gap (12 Feb 2011)

Well just take the time to proof read and spell check, and you'll save yourself some hassle.


Drop-out rate for what? Combat Engineer training? Honestly, can't be that bad. I spent less than a week at the school teaching on a QL3 course prior to my section commander course and from what I saw you basically had to not have a heartrate to fail the course. The focus is on quantity, not quality, so it is really a big sausage factory.

That being said, the lads in my section last summer were all outputs of the new system, and how they performed in some really horrible situations was no less than remarkable. 

However I'm off on a tangent. 

The 'drop-out' rate only becomes relevant on courses such as IEDD, EOD, Cbt Diver, and I guess Para. And then it varies, depending on the canidates on the course.


As to whether my job is more interesting  on tour than an infantryman, well it depends. There were alot of times that the infantry were simply providing a cordon/security while we worked, conducting searches etc. Then other times we supported them, clearing them onto objectives then sitting around while they did what they do.


** Edited to correct first sentence.


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## infantryian (12 Feb 2011)

Not to hijack slightly, but I am wondering... As a reservist, would combat engineers have more opportunities to go on tour?  As in the case of a natural disaster such as what happened to New Orleans and the Manitoba Floods. I know engineers were likely to go, but were infantry also dispatched. I ask because engineer was my second choice at the reserve unit I am applying and I was musing about calling them to change my job preference, and I would love to have the opportunity to do some work during my career.


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## daftandbarmy (13 Feb 2011)

infantryian said:
			
		

> Not to hijack slightly, but I am wondering... As a reservist, would combat engineers have more opportunities to go on tour?  As in the case of a natural disaster such as what happened to New Orleans and the Manitoba Floods. I know engineers were likely to go, but were infantry also dispatched. I ask because engineer was my second choice at the reserve unit I am applying and I was musing about calling them to change my job preference, and I would love to have the opportunity to do some work during my career.



Goodness me... you have no idea. 

If you go Engr, the career managers will flock to you like a starving shark.  :nod:


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## infantryian (13 Feb 2011)

Please forgive my ignorance in the matter, but what is a career manager?

If I am assuming correctly, which I rarely do, then it is someone who takes a look at you and tries to plan your life out for you...?

In either case I am not sure whether or not this means that I get to have more opportunities to go do some work in my chosen trade.


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## Eowyn (16 Feb 2011)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> If you go Engr, the career managers will flock to you like a starving shark.  :nod:



The Reserve Army doesn't have Career Managers.  By the time the poster gets enrolled and trades trained, who knows what the deployment opportunities will be for Reservists to deploy.


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## Roofus (19 Feb 2011)

I have a question:

after bmq/sq when you do the trade training in the summer for combat engineering, do you train infantry training as well?

also, in the summer for trade training for CE, is there alot of firing weapons, or is it more learning about building roads and bridges an such?


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Feb 2011)

Roofus said:
			
		

> I have a question:
> 
> after bmq/sq when you do the trade training in the summer for combat engineering, do you train infantry training as well?
> 
> also, in the summer for trade training for CE, is there alot of firing weapons, or is it more learning about building roads and bridges an such?


.

For Cbt Eng, you will do hand/power/hydraulic tools, demolitions, urban operations, CMD, search operations, watermanship and, bridging


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## AimzHigh (1 Mar 2011)

Frodo, I am also a civilian trying to become a Combat Engineer.  Like you, I also have the ambition to be the best that I can be and am confident there are others just like us.  To be a paratrooper, in the action, outside the wire are all things that appeal to me as well.  It's still too early for either of us (as you need 2 years of service to be eligible) but you should look into CSOR.  I'm not sure how many people already suggested it.  I didn't read the entire thread.  From what I understand CSOR (Canadian Special Operations Regiment) are paratroopers.  After the WWII Devil's Brigade was disbanded CSOR was the replacement.  It's elite and very tough to get into but if your anything like me it's the perfect goal to aim for.  Look it up.

Have you already signed up for Combat Engineer and are waiting to hear back?  I only ask because I spoke to a recruiter yesterday and he told me that after April it will probably be too late.  He said that I would probably have to wait until next year.  I'm going to the recruiting office today to get my paperwork in and hopefully start the testing ASAP.  With any luck my application will stand out and I'll be among the few selected for training...  and you of coarse. 

Anyways, best of luck you.  Feel free to email me anytime.  Maybe we can help eachother out.


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## dangerboy (1 Mar 2011)

AimzHigh said:
			
		

> After the WWII Devil's Brigade was disbanded CSOR was the replacement.



Just so you know the 1st Special Service Force (The Devils Brigade) was disbanded in December 1944 and CSOR was stood up August 2006.  Can it really be considered a replacement with a gap of 62 years.


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## Michael OLeary (1 Mar 2011)

Enough people in the CF have difficulty grasping the details of perpetuation and lineage, it's hardly worth challenging a prospective recruit on the subject.


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## AimzHigh (1 Mar 2011)

Sorry. Thanks for clearing that up.  It was a friend of mine that mentioned something about how CSOR was the new Devil's Brigade. I assumed that meant that it replaced it without considering the timeline.  None the less, the point is that it seems like something Frodo might like based on what he said he was looking for.  By the way, since you seem to know what your talking about, are they paratroopers?

And, yes, it does seem ridiculous to talk about something like CSOR when neither myself or Frodo are even serving in the CF.  However, don't you think it's a good idea to aim high from the start?  I know the chances of actually making it onto CSOR are slim but wouldn't doing everything you can from the very start with the intention of applying to CSOR increase your chances?  I know they check your history.  I've been told they even interview family and friends about you.

It's like preparing someone from childhood for their careers.  Teaching all the necessary skills. Well if you knew you wanted to be a member of CSOR isn't this the time you should start taking the steps?  

It may or may not be a realistic goal right now but it certainly won't hurt to strive to be the best from the start.  Just my opinion.


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## Michael OLeary (1 Mar 2011)

Theres nothing wrong with "aiming high" with regard to life goals, just make sure your focus is on the step in front of you. We've seen plenty of people coming here telling us they were going to be the best jtf/csor/patatrooper/sniper we ever saw, and then they disappeared after they failed the CFAT or BMQ. Aim as high as you like, in the end it is performance that counts.

And yes, there are parachute qualified people in CSOR.


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## AimzHigh (1 Mar 2011)

Thanks for the tip.  The idea of being part of Canada's elite is exciting.  I can imagine how many recruits you've come across that have had this goal only to fail early on.  I've thought long and hard about it and don't take the challenge lightly.  I do understand how important it is focus on what's on my doorstep today and really just go from there.  I'm not going to claim to be the best anything.  I can only hope that my best will be enough to take me to the level I aim to reach, one step at a time of coarse.

Thanks again for your insight.  It's nice, and necessary, to hear the voice of reason in a criticism instead of just a criticism.


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