# Op PRESENCE/Mali (Cdn mission/s, sitreps, etc. - merged)



## Nfld Sapper (12 Sep 2008)

News Release
One Canadian soldier dies in Mali
NR–08.069 - September 12, 2008

OTTAWA -- A Canadian Forces member serving with the Military Training Assistance Programme (MTAP) training initiative in Bamako, Mali, lost his life in a non-combat-related incident on September 9. 

Major Luc Racine, of the Royal 22e Régiment, Valcartier, Quebec, was a member of the Embassy of Canada in Mali and senior staff member at the Bamako Peacekeeping School, a military training center designed to support peace operations and capacity building in Western Africa. 

The thoughts and prayers of the men and women of the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence go out to the family and friends of the deceased. 

- mod edit to add mission name -


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## vonGarvin (13 Sep 2008)

RIP to the fallen.  Condolences to his family and friends


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## blacktriangle (13 Sep 2008)

RIP sir


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## OldSolduer (13 Sep 2008)

As one who has recently lost a son in Afghanistan, my condolences to the family.

RIP sir.


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## NL_engineer (13 Sep 2008)

RIP Sir


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## TacticalW (13 Sep 2008)

RIP sir


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## fire_guy686 (13 Sep 2008)

Rest Easy Sir.


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## The Bread Guy (13 Sep 2008)

Condolences to the family, colleagues and friends of the fallen.


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## Nfld Sapper (14 Sep 2008)

Statement
Statement by the Minister of National Defence on the death of Major Luc Racine
NR–08.072 - September 12, 2008

OTTAWA - The Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, issued the following statement today on the death of a Canadian soldier: 

I would like to offer my sincere condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of Major Luc Racine, who died in Bamako, Mali. Our thoughts and prayers are with them during this difficult time. 

Major Racine was a member of the Embassy of Canada in Mali and a senior staff member with the Military Training Assistance Programme (MTAP) at the Bamako Peacekeeping School. The Bamako Peacekeeping School is a military training center designed to support peace operations and capacity building in Western Africa. His hard work and dedication will not be forgotten. 

Major Luc Racine was a member of the Royal 22e Régiment in Valcartier, Québec."


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## Mike Baker (14 Sep 2008)

RIP  


-Deadpan


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## missing1 (14 Sep 2008)

My condolences to the family.


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## R933ex (14 Sep 2008)

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family. Sir  RIP


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## Patrick1971 (15 Sep 2008)

Hello Everyone,
          My name is Patrick Lefebvre, though I don't serve in the armed forces/Navy/Air Force etc, I was a "base brat" as the children of soldiers who lived in the PMQ's were referred as.  My parents are currently en route to visit Dani (Luc's Wife) and children in the Province of Quebec.  They left at noon today and as I write this condensed letter to all of you, My parents should be in Edmunston New Brunswick by now.  Now im sure some of you will say "What am I doing here ?"  I share in what Canada has lost on September 9th.  A great man indeed, I have had the honor and pleasure of meeting Luc Racine, Dani and their children on several occasions, Luc is a man of vision, Discipline, Preseverance, Humanitarian and Honor.  It is without a doubt that these times will be difficult for those who have lost loved ones/friends/family.  My parents are very good friends of the Racine family, I used to enjoy sitting down listening to Luc and my father just talk.  I would have done volunteer work for the military but my diabetes is difficult to control as I have been recently diagnosed and still in the beginning stages,however when I think of Luc's motivating thoughts, I continue to press forward taking each day...one day at a time. ;D

             So as I close this out, To those who have lost a loved one, I take my hat off to each and everyone of you including those presently overseas as U.N. Peacekeepers/Peacemakers in various parts of the world.  Take care and talk to you all soon.

Patrick

P.S. Master Cpl Joe Lefebvre is my father, retired and last posting CFB Cornwallis, N.S. in case some of you are curious.


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## geo (15 Sep 2008)

Rest in peace Major Racine

At the going down of the sun,
and in the morn,
we will remember them!

CHIMO!


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## brave little soldier (15 Sep 2008)

I would like to offer my sincere condolences to the family, friends and colleagues of Major Luc Racine. My thoughts and prayers are with them during this difficult time.


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## 3rd Horseman (16 Sep 2008)

RIP Major, My thoughts are with the friends and family. 

3rd Horseman


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## Armymedic (10 Dec 2011)

December 09, 2011

Allan Woods 

KINGSTON—Jamaican commandos storm the Tivoli Gardens slum in May 2010, hunting down an alleged trafficker and drug baron wanted in the United States.

One year later on the other side of the world, a little-known squad of Afghan cops fend off volleys of Taliban bombs and bullets during a siege of the governor’s palace in Kandahar City.

Tying the two events together are small groups of Canadian special forces who travel the world training foreign militaries how to fight terrorism. It’s a modest investment of foreign ministry money and Canadian Forces personnel meant to halt threats of violence and instability before they spread to Canadian shores.

The emphasis is on “modest,” particularly in a time of federal deficits, budget reviews and economic uncertainty, said Brig.-Gen. Denis Thompson, commander of the Canadian Special Operations Forces Command.

“If you’re in a resource-constrained environment why wouldn’t you make a small investment into the development of someone else’s forces if they’re gong to do that work for you,” he told the Star.

With the training for the Jamaican Defence Force, which has been ongoing since 2008, Thompson likes to think his soldiers contributed in some way to the capture of Christopher Dudus Coke, the notorious gang leader and drug trafficker who operated with impunity.

The rare peek behind the curtains of Canada’s special forces came during a conference in Kingston this week that brought Canadian and American soldiers together to discuss what could be the future of this country’s special operations.

Hostage rescue, terrorist takedowns and protecting high-value targets like the Canadian embassy in Libya remain the top priorities for Joint Task Force 2 and the rest of the unit, but training foreign forces to do the job themselves is “essential,” Thompson said.

“Threats are eliminated there before they can reach our borders, or at least they are contained within remote or inhospitable areas where terrorists have limited ability to pose a threat to others.”

Canada’s legacy over six years in Kandahar will take more time to sort out, but Canadian commandos still take pride in the individual battles they helped to influence.

One among them was the coordinated attacks of early May 2011 in Kandahar City while members of the Canadian Special Operations Regiment were mentoring a Provincial Response Company made up of Afghan police.

“They went from an organization that was completely new, with absolutely no trust from the Afghan government simply because they were an unknown entity,” said Lt.-Col. John Vass, Canadian Special Operations Regiment’s commanding officer. “Once they were trained up . . . they actually became a very reliable organization for the higher levels of leadership in Afghanistan.”

With the combat mission in Afghanistan over, the Canadians have been working since September with the Kabul-based Special Operations Advisory Group to get Afghan commandos up to snuff before Canada’s training mission ends in 2014.

But they are increasingly turning their attention to the Sahel region, a narrow band of predominately Muslim countries reaching across northern Africa from Senegal to Sudan.

The first deployment to train Malian special forces, who are trying to defend against Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, an offshoot of Osama bin Laden’s group, was in the fall of 2010. That was shortly after the kidnapping of Canadian diplomats Robert Fowler and Louis Guay in neighbouring Niger. Mali’s government was reportedly closely involved in negotiating their release.

“I don’t think you draw a direct line (between the kidnapped diplomats and the training mission) but you can probably make some inferences there,” said Thompson. “But the point is that Al Qaeda in the Maghreb is still a threat and that’s what we’re focused on.”

A 15-man Canadian team will be training about 100 Malian soldiers in things like marksmanship, operating in close quarters like a house or building, communications and how to track and disrupt terrorist networks. The training efforts are closely tied to the larger American special forces efforts across the region.

To tailor the training to Mali, the Canadians have had to abandon some of the more sophisticated equipment in their arsenal like GPS tracking devices and satellite communications and bone up on more rudimentary devices used in more remote parts of the world like high frequency radios and cellular telephones.

“There are other places on the horizon,” Vass said, but their movements are for the time being limited by the size of the force, which after five years stands at 440 people.

The other limitation is a complex geopolitical calculation that balances the threat of instability against a force’s ability and the country’s political will — all designed to ensure the skills Canada passes along don’t fall into the wrong hands.

History is littered with such warning signs, the most glaring being the American decision to train and equip Afghans to fight the Soviets, only to face off against them more than a decade later as the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

In the words of retired U.S. Air Force special operations commander Gen. Donald Wurster: “You’ve got to make sure you’re not training the next coup leader.”

The U.S. results have been mixed. Even the Canadian efforts have had some unintended outcomes.

It was Canadian commandos that trained a Jamaican team responsible for disarming a young man who hijacked a Canada-bound jetliner in Montego Bay in 2009, resolving the standoff without firing a shot. That was a clear winner.

But the 2010 capture of Dudus Coke, the druglord, led to the resignation of Prime Minister Bruce Golding last month.

The decision was partly the result of his poor handling of the extradition to the U.S., where the druglord pleaded guilty to drug and weapons trafficking. Golding resisted the American pressure for nine months before agreeing to track down the kingpin of Tivoli Gardens — Golding’s political power base.

With a U.S. surveillance airplane watching from the skies, three security personnel and 73 civilians were killed over four days. The controversy raged much longer with accusations soldiers killed innocent civilians and executed suspected gangsters

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/politics/article/1099761


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## The Bread Guy (22 Mar 2012)

Meanwhile, new folks in charge of Mali....


> On March 21, 2012 a group of Army mutineers appeared on Mali's national television station to declare that they had ended President Amadou Toumani Toure's regime, and put in place the ‘National Committee for the Return of Democracy and the Restoration of State'' (CNRDR). The spokesman for the CNRDR has also alluded to the army's dissatisfaction with the Toure administration's handing of its fight against Tuareg rebels in northern Mali.
> 
> France has already declared an end to security cooperation with Mali, the African Union has issued a statement condemning the actions of CNRDR and it is still unclear where President Toure resides or how much control he retains ....


Jamestown.org Terrorism Analysis, 22 Mar 12

More on what Canadians have been up to in Mali in the past here.


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## OldSolduer (22 Mar 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, new folks in charge of Mali....Jamestown.org Terrorism Analysis, 22 Mar 12
> 
> More on what Canadians have been up to in Mali in the past here.



The CBC reporter questioned the MND on this very topic this morning.


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## GAP (22 Mar 2012)

smack dab in the middle of nowhere............


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## Brad Sallows (22 Mar 2012)

Isn't it past time for the NDP to demand a 6-month feel-good intervention to get some more snapshots of Canadian service members in blue hats for the Party's office walls?


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## The Bread Guy (25 Mar 2012)

Buried in the middle of this Backgrounder on the PM's visit to Japan (also attached in case link doesn't work) - emphasis mine:





> To further advance Canada’s defence relations with Japan, while in Tokyo on March 25, Prime Minister Harper:
> 
> Committed to pursue negotiations towards a Mutual Logistics Support Agreement.
> *Committed to continued joint peace operations capacity building in Africa, based on the successful cross-dispatch of Canadian and Japanese trainers to Tanzania in February, 2012.*


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## Pieman (15 May 2012)

KONY 2012 EVERYONE!!!.....Wait,.....where did everyone go?


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## OldSolduer (15 May 2012)

Pieman said:
			
		

> KONY 2012 EVERYONE!!!.....Wait,.....where did everyone go?



Excuse me but Ellen is on. Turn it down would ya?


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## tomahawk6 (17 May 2012)

The Army Chief of Staff has announced that a brigade from the 10th Mountain Division will be tasked to AFRICOM next year.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2012/05/ap-ray-odierno-says-combat-brigade-heading-africa-051612/

Odierno: Brigade heading to Africa next year
 By Lolita C. Baldor - The Associated Press
 Posted : Wednesday May 16, 2012 16:50:26 EDT

WASHINGTON — Army leaders say a combat brigade will be assigned to the Pentagon’s Africa Command next year in a pilot program that will send small teams of soldiers to countries around the continent to do training and participate in military exercises.

Gen. Ray Odierno, the Army’s chief of staff, says the plan is part of a new effort to provide U.S. commanders around the globe with troops on a rotational basis to meet the military needs of their regions.

This pilot program sends troops to an area that has become a greater priority for the Obama administration since it includes several nations where terrorist groups are an increasing threat to the U.S. and the region.

Odierno says a brigade from the 10th Mountain Division will take on the new task.


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## GAP (1 Jun 2012)

Somalia donor money 'goes missing' 
1 June 2012 
Article Link

Large sums of money donated to Somalia's UN-backed interim government have not been accounted for, a World Bank report says.

The report, seen by the BBC, is being circulated at talks in Turkey on how to end Somalia's decades of anarchy.

It alleges a discrepancy of about $130m (£85m) in the accounts over two years.

UK foreign minister William Hague told the BBC that an international board to oversee the distribution of aid funds needed to be established urgently.

Somalia's transitional government mandate expires in August when it is due to hand over to an elected president.

'Big question mark'

The revelations in the World Bank report come as several hundred Somali politicians meet representatives of more than 50 countries in Istanbul to try to win new funding for the long-term reconstruction of country.

The report stops short of making specific allegations, but does not rule out corruption as a possible explanation for the missing funds.

"There is a discrepancy in what comes in and there's a lack of accounting of how money has been spent," the report's author Joakim Gundel is quoted by US broadcaster Voice of America as saying.

"So that opens naturally a big question mark for sure."

The report, which looks at the years 2009 and 2010, also says the transitional government has no real accounting system nor does it publicly disclose financial statements.

Contacted by the BBC, Mr Gundel said he would not make any comment about the report until later on Friday.

But VOA reports him as saying that the missing millions could significantly bolster Somalia's security without relying on foreign donations.

The conference in Istanbul is the second major international gathering this year about Somalia's crisis. 
More on link


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## The Bread Guy (11 Jun 2012)

From an Open Letter by the International Crisis Group (a think tank involving a number of former politicians and diplomats, and funded, in part, by CIDA):





> .... The stabilisation strategy underpinned by MONUSCO was centred too heavily on an expectation that the 2008-2009 rapprochement between DRC and Rwanda was enough to contain the conflict in the Kivus. The bilateral agreement was based on President Kabila's willingness to integrate Rwanda's proxy CNDP forces into the army, but the strategy was short-sighted as it made no provisions for addressing the underlying causes of conflict beyond Rwanda's security objectives. The current mutiny underway in the Kivus is perhaps the clearest evidence to date of how little progress has been made in stabilisation. The 2008 and 2012 crises appear remarkably similar, including their ethnic dimension, reported support from Rwanda and the negative impact on civilians, including displacement and potential for increasing ethnic tensions at the community level. These crises are symptoms of unresolved regional and local conflicts over access to land and resources, as well as a failure to achieve structural reform within the security sector, poor governance and non-existent rule of law, and the inability to address the sources of financing for armed groups, end impunity and extend state authority, including through decentralisation.
> 
> In this context, it would be a mistake if the Security Council seeks to make only minor adjustments to the current course in renewing MONUSCO's mandate. Without a new approach and re-engagement by the Security Council, MONUSCO risks becoming a $1.5 billion empty shell ....


More here - more on the MONSUCO mission here


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## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2012)

> West African leaders are intensifying their plans for military intervention in Mali, mobilizing a force of nearly 3,300 soldiers to spearhead the mission, despite their failure to win approval from the United Nations.
> 
> Senior military officers are expected to arrive in Mali this week to begin detailed planning for the military intervention. One of their goals, according to Ivory Coast’s army chief, is the “re-conquest of the north” – where Islamists and separatist rebels have seized power.
> 
> ...


_Globe & Mail_, 17 Jun 12


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## The Bread Guy (11 Oct 2012)

> Canadian Foreign Minister John Baird on Thursday warned against letting the situation in Mali, sliced in two since a coup and partly controlled by Islamist radicals, go the way of Afghanistan.
> 
> "Terrorism is the great struggle of our generation," said Baird after holding talks with French counterpart Laurent Fabius.
> 
> ...


Agence France-Presse, 11 Oct 12


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## The Bread Guy (14 Oct 2012)

Just caught this ....


> Citing the threat to regional peace from terrorists and Islamic militants in rebel-held northern Mali, the United Nations Security Council today held out the possibility of endorsing, within the next 45 days, an international military force to restore the unity of the West African country.
> 
> In a unanimously adopted resolution, the 15-member body called on Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to provide, at once, military and security planners to the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS), the African Union (AU) and other partners to help frame a response to a request by Mali’s transitional authorities for such a force, and to report back within 45 days.
> 
> ...


UN News Centre, 12 Oct 12

From the resolution:


> ".... The Security Council .... Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,
> 
> “1.   Welcomes the appointment of a Government of National Unity in Mali, expresses its support to the work of the Interim president of Mali, Dioncounda Traoré and urges the Transitional authorities in Mali to present a detailed road map for transition with concrete steps and timelines and to accelerate efforts towards the strengthening of democratic institutions and the restoration of constitutional order in the Republic of Mali through the holding of timely, peaceful, inclusive and credible elections by the end of the transition;
> 
> ...



And what do the bad guys have to say?


> Al-Qaeda-linked fighters in Mali have threatened to "open the doors of hell" for French citizens if France kept pushing for armed intervention to retake the rebel-held north.
> 
> The renewed threats against French hostages and expatriates came on Saturday as French-speaking nations met in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where French President Francois Hollande was expected to urge the rapid deployment of an African-led force to rout the rebels.
> 
> ...


MWC News, 14 Oct 12


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## Journeyman (14 Oct 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Just caught this ....UN News Centre, 12 Oct 12
> 
> In a unanimously adopted resolution, the 15-member body called on Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to provide, at once, military and security planners to the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS), the African Union (AU) and other partners to help frame a response to a request by Mali’s transitional authorities for such a force, and to report back within 45 days.


*OMG!!  * 
Sending staff bureaucrats to help Mali write a memo seeking help.....insisting that they receive their own drafted memo within a month and a half!!


 :surrender:   <----al Qaeda   :nod:


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## Old Sweat (14 Oct 2012)

I love a sense of urgency.  :facepalm:


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## Edward Campbell (14 Oct 2012)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I love a sense of urgency.  :facepalm:




I actually have some sympathy for the UN Secretary General. His _peacekeeping_ directorate is incapable of mounting anything like a useful military operation; his _political_ options are few and they are hamstrung by race ~ only black African soldiers may keep the peace in black Africa, for example; thus his only real options are: a) _do nothing_ or b) put second rate troops into missions that are planned and managed by a third rate staff.

But since it all happens in a region which has neither political nor economic importance - yet - it simply doesn't matter.


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## The Bread Guy (14 Oct 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> *OMG!!  *
> Sending staff bureaucrats to help Mali write a memo seeking help.....insisting that they receive their own drafted memo within a month and a half!!
> 
> 
> :surrender:   <----al Qaeda   :nod:


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## cupper (14 Oct 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> *OMG!!  *
> Sending staff bureaucrats to help Mali write a memo seeking help.....insisting that they receive their own drafted memo within a month and a half!!
> 
> 
> :surrender:   <----al Qaeda   :nod:



Don't you mean

 :rofl: <----al Qaeda


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## a_majoor (9 Nov 2012)

And some more on the Mali issue. Since this is a pretty direct fallout from Libya (which I feel we should never have participated in), we may end up getting sucked into this as well.

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/11/09/war-plans-for-mali-leaked/



> *War Plans for Mali Leaked*
> 
> It sure looks like the US has some more leading from behind in Africa ahead of it. Reuters reports that plans are solidifying for what Theodore Roosevelt might have called a “splendid little war” in Mali:
> 
> ...



The graphic o link has one other interesting bit of information; the area controlled by the Islamists in Mali is relatively close to the area controlled by the Boku Haram Islamist group in Nigeria. Attacks against one group might spur actions by the other group in support of the Islamist cause, which is related to the "whack a mole" argument in the article.


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## Edward Campbell (18 Nov 2012)

This _Reuters_ report about Nigerian troops killing unarmed captives, as they battle a Muslim insurgency in the Northeast of the country, will be lost in the "noise" about the Gaza battle, but it reminds us that Africa has deep problems.


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## larry Strong (18 Nov 2012)

Things are not looking so good in the Congo either...in this column which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from CTV:




Rwanda-backed rebels press fight in eastern Congo toward Goma

Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/rwanda-backed-rebels-press-fight-in-eastern-congo-toward-goma-1.1043047#ixzz2CatTvucj



> GOMA, Congo -- A Rwandan-backed rebel group advanced to within 4 kilometres (2.4 miles) of Goma, a crucial provincial capital in eastern Congo, marking the first time that rebels have come this close since 2008.
> 
> Congolese army spokesman Col. Olivier Hamuli said the fighting has been going on since 6 a.m. Sunday and the frontline has moved to just a few kilometres outside the city. Contacted by telephone on the frontline, M23 rebel spokesman Col. Vianney Kazarama said the group will spend the night in Goma.
> 
> ...


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## BrendenDias (20 Nov 2012)

As much as it is hard to know, Africa will always be in a crisis...


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## OldSolduer (20 Nov 2012)

B.Dias said:
			
		

> As much as it is hard to know, Africa will always be in a crisis...



Until we learn that handing out money and food is not the solution to Africa's problems.


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## BrendenDias (20 Nov 2012)

True. Money and food goes usually goes to warlords, or a corrupt government, in those nations that apply.
Education. That is the number one solution to the crisis in Africa.
Give the people education, and women will have access to all they need, and to give them awareness, etc.. lower child mortality rate;
the people will start to question government and regimes, new, smarter, non-corrupt (if that possible) politicians will emerge within the populace, etc, etc, etc...
So education solves a lot of problems that the continent has. But the sad thing is, could the earth sustain a huge population that eats and drinks the same amount of the 2nd-1st world countries..? I don't think so. As worlds fresh water is becoming more and more privatized, and food production is decreasing, in my eyes, the world would't be able to sustain them all....
But, I could be wrong. Technology has gotten us out of tough times, and it's only getting more advanced...


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## Edward Campbell (23 Nov 2012)

Two things:






Chinese peacekeepers on their way to Liberia (UNMIL)

This pictures serves as a reminder that the "face" of UN peacekeeping has changed: there are far, far fewer "white" (Europeans, Australians, Canadians, etc) and many, many more "ethnic" faces, including Chinese faces.

*AND*​
A new Canadian foreign aid policy initiative may indicate that we are, actually, going to help Africa, rather than just sending money to a few African _kleptocrats_.


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## cupper (23 Nov 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Two things:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder how much of the involvement of the Chinese in African peacekeeping is due to protecting their own sources of natural resources.

They have become heavily involved in developing infrastructure in Africa to gain access to oil and other resources over the past decade, and may be doing this as a means to protect their investment.


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## Edward Campbell (23 Nov 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> I wonder how much of the involvement of the Chinese in African peacekeeping is due to protecting their own sources of natural resources.
> 
> They have become heavily involved in developing infrastructure in Africa to gain access to oil and other resources over the past decade, and may be doing this as a means to protect their investment.




That's certainly part of it ... but it's only one part of a coherent, long term "charm offensive:" the application of pretty much all the _soft power_ tools, from movies and the Olympics to peacekeeping, in an effort to make the rest of the world see China as "nice" and "responsible" and all that. Joseph Nye is, I believe, pretty close to required reading in most universities.


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## BrendenDias (24 Nov 2012)

So does this mean Canada will send ground troops  
Congo is in a crisis also at the moment.
Hmm...


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## dapaterson (24 Nov 2012)

Well, one of the peacekeepers is bringing a guitar...

(Hopefully they're not flying United)


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## Justin Umber (11 Dec 2012)

seems appropriate under a UN banner, all together now; Kyoom-By-Ya...


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## Edward Campbell (21 Dec 2012)

And things go from bad to worse, as the _Globe and Mail_ reports that the Sudan People’s Liberation Army (SPLA) troops shot down a clearly marked UN (Russian MI-8) helicopter, believing it was a rebel helicopter carrying weapons to anti-government forces. UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon is, rightfully, outraged at the incident which cost four Russian _peacekeepers_ their lives.


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## my72jeep (30 Dec 2012)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.


HALIFAX - The Harper government is examining whether to dispatch Canadian troops to help train an African force whose purpose would be to take back a vast swath of Mali from an off-shoot of al-Qaeda.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay, speaking in Halifax Sunday, said what form of military assistance can be provided to a growing international campaign is something that's under active discussion.

He said the government is contemplating what contribution Canada could make.

The United Nations recently decided to back a proposal from Economic Community of West African States — ECOWAS — to send 3,300 troops to the region.

More at link:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-weighs-options-possible-military-training-mission-west-003443916.html

_- mod edit of title to better reflect thrust of thread - _


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## Armymedic (30 Dec 2012)

Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-troops-could-go-to-mali-mackay-suggests/article6802490/

Love the comments.... :facepalm:


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## brihard (31 Dec 2012)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Globe and Mail:
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-troops-could-go-to-mali-mackay-suggests/article6802490/
> 
> Love the comments.... :facepalm:



Wow. Why did I even bother reading those?  :facepalm:


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## dimsum (31 Dec 2012)

I'm not going to read the comments since I have access to loaded weapons.  But, I want to know!


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## jollyjacktar (31 Dec 2012)

The granola cruncher's have to have something to bitch about.  The F-35 screamfest has died down as of late.   :


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## Stoker (31 Dec 2012)

There was a few good comments there but the majority....wow do Canadians really think like that? Probably never wore an uniform in their lives


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## OldSolduer (31 Dec 2012)

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> There was a few good comments there but the majority....wow do Canadians really think like that? Probably never wore an uniform in their lives



It's not that they have never worn a uniform, it's that they have been fed a line of BS by those that worship PET as the God of the Left.


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## Stoker (31 Dec 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> It's not that they have never worn a uniform, it's that they have been fed a line of BS by those that worship PET as the God of the Left.



God help us if his Progeny becomes PM.


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## my72jeep (31 Dec 2012)

I read the commints til I got to sick to go on, Do these people really believe it was  PM Harper sent the Troops to Afghanistan?


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## OldSolduer (31 Dec 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> I read the commints til I got to sick to go on, Do these people really believe it was  PM Harper sent the Troops to Afghanistan?



Yes they do, despite everyone telling them that it was the Liberals under Chretien who originally sent 3VP to Afghanistan.
The average Canadian is so ill informed on military and international affairs that most should refrain from commenting.


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## ModlrMike (31 Dec 2012)

Aren't these the same dough heads that wanted us to return to UN missions?  :facepalm:


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## Edward Campbell (31 Dec 2012)

I am, based on some very old and, admittedly, quite limited experience, skeptical about the use of _first world_ troops, especially _white_ first world troops to train black _third world_ soldiers. It seems to me that there are too many cultural, experience and expectation gaps. My observation was, many years decades ago that _second world_ troops (then Indians and Pakistanis) seemed more adept at handing African training than we were.

Maybe we, the US led West, should be managing and funding training programmes for e.g. Mali but we should pay e.g. Indian, Fijian and Malaysian armies to actually conduct the training.


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## Jarnhamar (31 Dec 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I am, based on some very old and, admittedly, quite limited experience, skeptical about the use of _first world_ troops, especially _white_ first world troops to train black _third world_ soldiers. It seems to me that there are too many cultural, experience and expectation gaps. My observation was, many years decades ago that _second world_ troops (then Indians and Pakistanis) seemed more adept at handing African training than we were.



I couldn't agree more.


----------



## my72jeep (31 Dec 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I am, based on some very old and, admittedly, quite limited experience, skeptical about the use of _first world_ troops, especially _white_ first world troops to train black _third world_ soldiers. It seems to me that there are too many cultural, experience and expectation gaps. My observation was, many years decades ago that _second world_ troops (then Indians and Pakistanis) seemed more adept at handing African training than we were.
> 
> Maybe we, the US led West, should be managing and funding training programmes for e.g. Mali but we should pay e.g. Indian, Fijian and Malaysian armies to actually conduct the training.


E.R. is speaking from first hand experience, my guess is the Zulu wars?..........


----------



## GAP (31 Dec 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> E.R. is speaking from first hand experience, my guess is the Zulu wars?..........



Let's not get carried away here.....they had fire arms during the Zulu wars..... :


----------



## PJGary (31 Dec 2012)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Aren't these the same dough heads that wanted us to return to UN missions?  :facepalm:



That was my gripe too. 

"Maaaan, peace keeping and the UN maaaan, we need to help less fortunate people maaan"
"The UN is requesting us to do this and help these people who asked us to help them"
"...No blood for oil maaaan, why are we going there to help other people when we live in like, a fascist dictatorship and stuff...down with bush maaan!"

At least if these people exist they are too fat/lazy/stupid to go vote, which I'm cool with.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Dec 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I am, based on some very old and, admittedly, quite limited experience, skeptical about the use of _first world_ troops, especially _white_ first world troops to train black _third world_ soldiers. It seems to me that there are *too many cultural, experience and expectation gaps* ....


Not to mention history.....


----------



## brihard (31 Dec 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Not to mention history.....



Yup. Just for info's sake, Mali's colonial history is French. For what (if anything) that's worth.


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Dec 2012)

Well we messed up in the Congo, Somalia and Rwanda.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

Stay away.


----------



## MikeL (31 Dec 2012)

It seems that CSOR did alright in Mali(prior to the coup).

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/03/canadian-special-forces-mentor-malis-military/
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21855:mali-to-receive-canadian-special-forces-to-fight-al-qaeda&catid=56:diplomacy-a-peace&Itemid=111
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1099761--canadian-commandos-focus-on-foreign-forces


----------



## medicineman (31 Dec 2012)

I seem to recall that we still have/had a decent mission going on in Sierra Leone...a small one, about a dozen trainers, but still pretty successful as I understand it.

 :2c:

MM


----------



## Armymedic (31 Dec 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yup. Just for info's sake, Mali's colonial history is French. For what (if anything) that's worth.



+1

And for some reason the US SOF and FRASOF don't work well together....Perhaps because the expansive egos and never ending dick measuring. Or, more realistically, cause France turned its back on the ATO.


----------



## Monsoon (31 Dec 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I am, based on some very old and, admittedly, quite limited experience, skeptical about the use of _first world_ troops, especially _white_ first world troops to train black _third world_ soldiers. It seems to me that there are too many cultural, experience and expectation gaps.


For what it's worth, my experiences with Malian officers have been uniformly positive (I've worked with three at various times). They're all trained at French military academies and the results are obvious - if there's anything approaching an "Western" army (or at least officer corps) in Africa, it's Mali's. I would imagine that the NCM corp is less well-developed, but I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of our being able to work with them.


----------



## Armymedic (31 Dec 2012)

More from the Globe and Mail.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/how-al-qaeda-carved-out-its-own-country-in-mali/article6822838/?page=all


How Al-quieda is carving out its own country in Mali.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (1 Jan 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> It's not that they have never worn a uniform, it's that they have been fed a line of BS by those that worship PET as the God of the Left.



Its just not the G & M comments section that is full of loonies. I was listening to Rex Murphy yesterday on CBC radio where people could call-in on who they thought was the most important event/person of 2012. One old guy from Edmonton stated the election of Alison Redford and Pauline Marois were important because we had five female premiers and how great this was because as we all know females are more "compassionate and caring" then males and they would make Canada a better place, etc, etc.

A second caller (female) came on how Chief Spence was the greatest thing since sliced bread and how she was the new "Gandi", etc, etc.

Turned off the radio at this point and headed for the first Beer Store I could find.


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Jan 2013)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, my experiences with Malian officers have been uniformly positive (I've worked with three at various times). They're all trained at French military academies and the results are obvious - if there's anything approaching an "Western" army (or at least officer corps) in Africa, it's Mali's. I would imagine that the NCM corp is less well-developed, but I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of our being able to work with them.




And I worked with a couple of absolutely first rate Ghanians ~ well one undeniably first rate, by any standard, and one fully acceptable ~ and a couple of very good Senegalize, too. *But*: in all cases we (my NCOs and I) had to try (and we almost always failed) to keep our _expectations_ very, very low because a couple of good officers were, themselves, unable to make up for all the other poorly educated, badly trained, undisciplined officers, NCOs and soldiers. Our Indian colleagues _seemed_, to me, to have had much more realistic _expectations_ and to have been much less frustrated than we. I _suspect_ our unrealistic expectations and pretty constant frustration made us less that fully effective in the training role. But that was a _looooong_ time ago ... I'm pretty sure that today's NCOs and officers are better at all this than we were.


----------



## Journeyman (1 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> ... I'm pretty sure that today's NCOs and officers are better at all this than we were.


Are you suggesting that the current generation has caused this lower expectation of competence?


----------



## GAP (1 Jan 2013)

No, I think they are just more used to it based on their recent training roles....


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Are you suggesting that the current generation has caused this lower expectation of competence?




Gimme a break! It's the morning after the New Year's Eve party  :subbies:  ... and there was a charming lady (of indeterminate age, but still 25_ish_ years my junior) who wanted me to understand that she's about to divorce her husband, and ...  :nod:


----------



## Journeyman (1 Jan 2013)

Perhaps I should have used  "  "  instead of  "  "


----------



## Bigmac (1 Jan 2013)

Training African troops to fight Al'Quada in Mali may be a losing battle. It would be better to send in other military forces but unfortunately Africa does not like western forces coming into their country. Al'Quada has made Mali their new base of operations. Make no mistake about it they will organize and launch attacks from this base. 

Another thing to consider is one of Mali's natural resources is uranium. If Al'Quada controls northern Mali they will also have easy access to uranium that can be enriched to weapons grade or used in dirty bombs. Al'Quada has cells throughout Africa that can distribute this uranium and countries like Iran who would gladly assist them.

 :2c:


----------



## Teeps74 (1 Jan 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Yes they do, despite everyone telling them that it was the Liberals under Chretien who originally sent 3VP to Afghanistan.
> The average Canadian is so ill informed on military and international affairs that most should refrain from commenting.



I can not read, nor write to those forums... The blatant lies and deceit along with the utter contempt. Not to mention the one sided moderation. The grope and flail is as bad, if not worse then the Star.


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Perhaps I should have used  "  "  instead of  "  "




Nah ... one of these days I'll master English grammar.  :-\
.
.
.
.
.
But not 'til after I "master" the _The Gay Divorcee_.  ;D


----------



## my72jeep (1 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Gimme a break! It's the morning after the New Year's Eve party  :subbies:  ... *and there was a charming lady (of indeterminate age, but still 25ish years my junior) who wanted me to understand that she's about to divorce her husband, and ...  :nod:*


Can any one help sear the image of that statement from my mind?


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Jan 2013)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, my experiences with Malian officers have been uniformly positive (I've worked with three at various times). They're all trained at French military academies and the results are obvious - if there's anything approaching an "Western" army (or at least officer corps) in Africa, it's Mali's. I would imagine that the NCM corp is less well-developed, but I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of our being able to work with them.



Concur.

I have worked with both Malians and Senegalese...from my experience, I found both nations' officers to be quite capable, very professional and hard working.


Regards
G2G


----------



## PPCLI Guy (1 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> But not 'til after I "master" the _The Gay Divorcee_.  ;D



You da man!


----------



## Armymedic (1 Jan 2013)

http://www.thestar.com/printarticle/1308968

Parliament must debate any military mission in Mali
Published on Tuesday January 01, 2013

Before sending Canadian troops into harm’s way in Mali, Prime Minister Stephen Harper should consult Parliament, and let the public know what the mission involves and the risks it entails. Defence Minister Peter MacKay has been musing about deploying military trainers. But given Mali’s explosive volatility even trainers could face dangers that we should weigh before signing on.

Interim President Dioncounda Traoré presides over a weak regime that is run from the shadows by forces loyal to Capt. Amadou Haya Sanogo, who led a coup in March. Just weeks ago the military also forced out Traoré’s prime minister. That prompted the United Nations Security Council to demand that the army stop meddling.

And that’s arguably the least of Mali’s problems. In the north, Islamists linked to Al Qaeda have carved out a state, imposing a brutal version of Islamic law, destroying shrines and creating an anarchic, Afghan-like haven for foreign extremists. While the Security Council has approved an African-led military force of 3,300 troops to help Mali’s dysfunctional army of 7,000 wrest back control, the African forces have more experience in peacekeeping than waging a counter-insurgency war. So there’s a push on to deploy American, European and Canadian trainers, and to supply equipment.

Our trainers have served in Mali before. But Ottawa abruptly halted aid after the coup. It has demanded “free and fair” elections. Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird recently cancelled a visit as too risky. And the African force won’t be combat-ready before September.

Before dispatching troops into a maelstrom that could become a full-blown war the government should come clean about its intentions, and more specifically about how they fit into a larger, credible international plan to restore democracy and stability.


----------



## Armymedic (3 Jan 2013)

From Macleans magazine:

http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/12/16/al-qaeda-rising/#more-327377

Al-Qaeda rising
A Michael Petrou report: Islamist terrorists spread chaos and fear in Africa while the West dithers


----------



## Armymedic (3 Jan 2013)

Today on CBC Power and Politics, Robert Fowler says there should be Canadian military involvement in Mali.

Chris Alexander says the government is not contemplating a military contribution to Mali...opposition MPs do not believe him.


----------



## Pte. Jay (3 Jan 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> It seems that CSOR did alright in Mali(prior to the coup).
> 
> http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/03/canadian-special-forces-mentor-malis-military/
> http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21855:mali-to-receive-canadian-special-forces-to-fight-al-qaeda&catid=56:diplomacy-a-peace&Itemid=111
> http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1099761--canadian-commandos-focus-on-foreign-forces



Found this with a quick Youtube search:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1x9gophCXc


----------



## PuckChaser (4 Jan 2013)

I love how the media and all the left wingers want us to do more peacekeeping and UN missions, yet when this mission comes up that has the backing of the UN we need to have a discussion in parliament and shouldn't go...  :facepalm:


----------



## medicineman (4 Jan 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I love how the media and all the left wingers want us to do more peacekeeping and UN missions, yet when this mission comes up that has the backing of the UN we need to have a discussion in parliament and shouldn't go...  :facepalm:



It's because it's not a Blue Helmet/ "Targets For Peace" mission - it'll likely be green and "combat oriented" as it's allegedly for an advisory/anti-terrorsist role.

Besides, they need something new to snivel about  ;D.

MM


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Jan 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I love how the media and all the left wingers want us to do more peacekeeping and UN missions, yet when this mission comes up that has the backing of the UN we need to have a discussion in parliament and shouldn't go...  :facepalm:


Key question:  is the U.S. good with the idea?  If yes, "usual suspects" say it's bad for Canada.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (4 Jan 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Key question:  is the U.S. good with the idea?  If yes, "usual suspects" say it's bad for Canada.



Actually, the key question is "how does this mission serve the national interest".  The corollary is "what is the opportunity cost - what will we NOT be able to do because we have committed LOO 4 to this mission".


----------



## Journeyman (4 Jan 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Actually, the key question is "how does this mission serve the national interest".  The corollary is "what is the opportunity cost - what will we NOT be able to do because we have committed LOO 4 to this mission".


  Exactly!!

...and I'm not seeing any particular national interest, except maybe way down the shopping list at "maintain international engagement," whereas the opportunity costs seem pretty high on the list, even with a reasonably-scaled, short-term mission.


----------



## hagan_91 (4 Jan 2013)

Deploy a battle group, our national interest should be to prevent any type of terrorist base set up. These people must never be able to sleep soundly.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Jan 2013)

Well if we DO send a mission there, this Guy - me - would be interested.

Just sayin....


----------



## Journeyman (4 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> Deploy a battle group, our national interest should be to prevent any type of terrorist base set up. These people must never be able to sleep soundly.


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't understand "national interest" (it's not a synonym for "wouldn't it be swell_ if_..." ), or what our various LOOs are, so let's get right to what you believe a Battle Group would accomplish within Mali.

     op:


----------



## Kat Stevens (4 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't understand "national interest" (it's not a synonym for "wouldn't it be swell_ if_..." ), or what our various LOOs are, so let's get right to what you believe a Battle Group would accomplish within Mali.
> 
> op:



A medals parade, brandy and cigars in the mess to follow.


----------



## The Bread Guy (4 Jan 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Actually, the key question is "how does this mission serve the national interest".  The corollary is "what is the opportunity cost - what will we NOT be able to do because we have committed LOO 4 to this mission".


My bad - I should have been more specific re:  the key question from the "usual suspects".

Thanks for bringing up that MAJOR point.


----------



## Old Sweat (4 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't understand "national interest" (it's not a synonym for "wouldn't it be swell_ if_..." ), or what our various LOOs are, so let's get right to what you believe a Battle Group would accomplish within Mali.
> 
> op:



Come on now, JM. All we are talking about is cranking up a battle group with an administrative tail stretching back to Canada. And we are going to plunk it down in hostile territory, perhaps against the wishes of both the national government and the regional consensus, which smells a lot like aggression. And even if it wasn't, we are not sure who all the good guys and the bad guys are, and what are the various tribal and religious factions really want. And we don't have a real vital national interest at stake that might call for more than some advisers or observers. Can you spell Somalia?

And, of course, it probably would be more than a one of deployment, and this would mean we might find ourselves tied down if something really important happens someplace else.

Sounds good to me. What possibly could go wrong with that?  :sarcasm:


----------



## hagan_91 (4 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't understand "national interest" (it's not a synonym for "wouldn't it be swell_ if_..." ), or what our various LOOs are, so let's get right to what you believe a Battle Group would accomplish within Mali.
> 
> op:



A national intrest is something the people and government are willing to protect and enforce. As I said that our national intrest "should" be to defeat terrorism. Mali is obviously wanting support, so I say keep the mentors in place or like some of you said maybe India, or other second world countries, and a few battle groups from NATO countries to provide security. Im sure JTF 2/SAS/SEALS etc, would be there taking out key Al Quida members.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> A national intrest is something the people and government are willing to protect and enforce. As I said that our national intrest "should" be to defeat terrorism. Mali is obviously wanting support, so I say keep the mentors in place or like some of you said maybe India, or other second world countries, and a few battle groups from NATO countries to provide security. Im sure JTF 2/SAS/SEALS etc, would be there taking out key Al Quida members.



Please break down the logistics and costs of your fantasy venture for us.

To stay in your lane, you, at least, have to be on the road.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Jan 2013)

Sounds like it might be an idea to encourage the "2nd world armies" to interact with the Mali army and then "1st world countries military" can support "2nd world forces" in the mission.


----------



## Journeyman (4 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> A national intrest is something the people and government are willing to protect and enforce.


So you believe that Canadians are willing to go to war to protect Mali?  Does your average Canadian even know where Mali is?  Do you?

Is such an expenditure of wealth in the competitive self-interest of Canada?....is there anything in Mali worth a single Canadian soldier's life?......what about political capital, since domestically and internationally people will disagree with our intervening in a sovereign nation?....does intervening create a security dilemma, in that it makes Canada a more appealing al Qaeda target for retribution? 

All these, plus the aforementioned logistics' tail, the opportunity costs, the roto requirement, etc, are points to be considered when bandying about the term "national interest," and blithely saying you'll throw a Battle Group at the problem.


OK, now yes, you did indeed say that our national intrest [_sic_] "should" be to defeat terrorism. What does that mean to you?  Terrorism is a tactic; proclaiming a "war on terror" is as logically empty as calling WW2 a "war on blitzkrieg." How is a Battle Group going to do that? Why a BG -- why not a Combat Team or a Brigade Group? Hell, we _should_ send the Div HQ over, and give them to AQ -- have them bogged down in PowerPoint in no time!  But you want a Battle Group. To what end?


A quick perusal of your posts show you routinely jump into threads with both feet.....firmly in your mouth. You'd think you'd tire of it.    :not-again:


----------



## Danjanou (4 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hell, we _should_ send the Div HQ over, and give them to AQ -- have them bogged down in PowerPoint in no time!



While an effective war winning tactic, I'm sure there's something in the Geneva Convention that says we're not allowed to do this. 8)


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Jan 2013)

Then we'd have to deal with people crying  #PowerpointNoMore


----------



## 63 Delta (4 Jan 2013)

Well I think we should send two Battle Groups over at a time, so we can do twice as much, and be back in half the time...


----------



## teabag (4 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So you believe ...To what end?



It would not be reasonable to single out intervention in Mali as a war supported by the Canadian public, who do not have an actual say in decisions pertaining to national security.  Whether Canadian are willing or know the geographic location of Mali is irrelevant as long as the government believes there is sufficient interest at stake and the costs can be retrieved or justified.  Depending on who you ask, there may be assets in Mali that are worth sending military advisers for.  Battle Groups will not be necessary unless we're trying to change the entire country a la Afghanistan.  Besides, as per Somalia doing this via proxies would appear the most cost-effective and keep our hands clean at the same time.  In other words, it may be worth the lives of soldiers in that general area to be involved.  

Wouldn't be too worried about political capital since there is already a U.N. resolution that was passed unanimously.  As for a security dilemma, if we're worried about being targeted by militants at this stage of the game it's a little late.  As for logistics, given that West Africa is made up of many former French colonies who have ties to France I do not foresee a problem.  Not to mention the groundwork that had already been laid out for the operations in Libya or the reach of the United States military (AFRICOM).

Anyway, other interests aside from humanitarian issues is that Canada has a few companies in Mali that the Canada Pension Plan is invested in to the tune of millions of dollars.  Based on what I read they are mining companies.  Makes sense since gold appears to be one of the primary drivers of the Malian economy.  Still one of the poorest countries in the world, though. 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada–Mali_relations


----------



## Pte. Jay (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> A national intrest is something the people and government are willing to protect and enforce. As I said that our national intrest "should" be to defeat terrorism. Mali is obviously wanting support, so I say keep the mentors in place or like some of you said maybe India, or other second world countries, and a few battle groups from NATO countries to provide security. Im sure JTF 2/SAS/SEALS etc, would be there taking out key Al Quida members.



As recce said... These things don't come out of thin air


----------



## Armymedic (5 Jan 2013)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> Well I think we should send two Battle Groups over at a time, so we can do twice as much, and be back in half the time...



Based upon a single infantry mech rifle company. Total compliment for each BG at about 1200, with Majors and MWO being the majory of billets....

 ;D


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

Everytime i say ONE thing, the objective is to make me look stupid. Why one battle group, and not more? Because the bigger countries can provide the bulk, while we contribute a nice force. The afghan war is pretty much done for us, we can afford a new theatre of war. As for civilians caring about the mission or not, imho when Canada is thinking of a mission the only people who should have influence is the soldiersthemselves.Canadian soldiers are willing to fight over there, to rid the country of a terrorist safe haven. Also many canadians would be willing to sign up just to go(me).


----------



## dangerboy (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> .Canadian soldiers are willing to fight over there, to rid the country of a terrorist safe haven. Also many canadians would be willing to sign up just to go(me).



The majority of Canadian soldiers that I talked to don't want anything to do with that continent, they remember previous missions there and want nothing to do with the place.  They will obviously go if ordered but wanting to go there I am not convinced.


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

Historically the UN fails in africa, but as a pending soldier, I can say any deployment would be a worthy experience. Also were going in to HELP Mali rid there land from AQ. Were not there as an occupying force, but rather as mentors, and possibly a security boast.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> Everytime i say ONE thing, the objective is to make me look stupid.



Trust me, no one cares if you look stupid....and you do it all by yourself:



> As for civilians caring about the mission or not, imho when Canada is thinking of a mission the only people who should have influence is the soldiersthemselves.



This is so completely wrong as to be laughable.  We should have NO say at all.  The military provides advice to the government, and they, as the elected representatives of the people of Canada get to decide when, where, and why we deploy.  The moment it becomes "soldiers themselves" that decide on our military commitments and hence our foreign policy, and hence a declaration of exactly what our national interests are, then I will hang up my spurs.

<< edited for egregious grammatical error>>


----------



## Edward Campbell (5 Jan 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> ...
> This is so completely wrong as to be laughable.  We should have NO say at all.  The military provides advice to the government, and they, as the elected representatives of the people of Canada get to decide when, where, and why we deploy.  The moment it becomes "soldiers themselves" that decide on our military commitments and hence our foreign policy, and hence a declaration of exactly what are national interests are, then I will hang up my spurs.




I hope everyone who cares even a wee tiny bit about *Canada* and *democracy* reads what PPCLI Guy wrote, thinks about it - a lot - and takes it on board. He has, neatly and succinctly, distilled about 500 years of Western constitutional history into one sentence - that's why we have functioning democracies and others have dictatorships. All good, professional soldiers share his sentiments - history teaches us what happens when otherwise solid military men lose their professionalism and decide to _dictate_ themselves or to serve dictators.


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

Its not laughable to somebody who see do macracy as a reason the world is where it is.Everyday citizens who know more about Kim and kanyes new baby then about anything relative to history, politics, economics, and defense are in charge of voting our leaders in (half are brainless goofs that care only about there wallet then the welfare of citizens)and dictating our policies made in any field. Qualifications should be needed in order for one to vote. That's an argument ill make another day and keep this on track. Also to your next point. I never said you should have say, if you reread and focus you ll notice i said the word "influence".


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

Sooo, you'd agree that experience should be required in order to mouth off about where we send our troops?


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

Yea educational experience, knowledge of current affairs, knowing we have a prime minister and not a president,etc.


----------



## The Bread Guy (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> ....  I never said you should have say, if you reread and focus you ll notice i said the word "influence" ....


That may have been what you _thought_, but we can only see what you _typed_.....


			
				hagan_91 said:
			
		

> .... imho when Canada is thinking of a mission *the only people who should have influence is the soldiersthemselves* ....


Gotta be careful with modifiers like "only" - that sorta means "nobody else", as in "nobody else should have influence".


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

Yes your right, they should have most influence.


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> Yea educational experience, knowledge of current affairs, knowing we have a prime minister and not a president,etc.



Pretty simple criteria.

Ho-hum, just want to point out what you aid earlier:



			
				hagan_91 said:
			
		

> Historically the UN fails in africa, but as a pending soldier, I can say any deployment would be a worthy experience. Also were going in to HELP Mali rid there land from AQ. Were not there as an occupying force, but rather as mentors, and possibly a security boast.



As a "pending" soldier do you really think you're qualified to make the statements you have?


----------



## Edward Campbell (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> Yes your right, they should have most influence.




No, you are still 100% bloody wrong.  :facepalm:  Please read more and post less until you at least finish elementary school.


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

Other then saying a worthy experience because I dont know what kind of experience it is, yes I am. I have a broad understanding of the world and think my knowledge is suffient enough to express my opinion.


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> No, you are still 100% bloody wrong.  :facepalm:  Please read more and post less until you at least finish elementary school.



No its not wrong, just because YOUR opinion is different , and believe everyday people should have say in things they have no clue about, does not mean I'm wrong for my belief in that qualified people should be able vote.


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

Some days I hate the internet.


----------



## Kat Stevens (5 Jan 2013)

It's like wrestling with a pig, everyone gets covered in sh*t, and the pig is the only one to really enjoy it.


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

You people cant handle the fact that not everyone shares your opinions. When will this country wake up. Were rotting from the inside out. Democracy needs to be revised. This isnt a day an age where the majority has there nose in politics. Media has made sure that our focus is far from the current stage of our country. Soldiers fight and die there, and get no influence. The people who sit on there ass and play Call of duty all day, and watch fashion tv all night influence a situation like this, that dont even know where mali is let alone whats going on there.


----------



## Jed (5 Jan 2013)

'The SKY is FALLING!!' Where is that chicken little emotion, anyway?


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/04/wrd-mali-islamist-ansar-dine-ceasefire-military.html


----------



## Sythen (5 Jan 2013)

What a world we live in, when facts, experience and knowledge can be dismissed as simple opinion.


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

Sythen said:
			
		

> What a world we live in, when facts, experience and knowledge can be dismissed as simple opinion.



Explain?


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> You people cant handle the fact that not everyone shares your opinions. When will this country wake up. Were rotting from the inside out. Democracy needs to be revised. This isnt a day an age where the majority has there nose in politics. Media has made sure that our focus is far from the current stage of our country. Soldiers fight and die there, and get no influence. The people who sit on there ass and play Call of duty all day, and watch fashion tv all night influence a situation like this, that dont even know where mali is let alone whats going on there.



Well why don't you be idle no more and do something about it?

There's a dude in Ontario who wants to protect the Arctic from the Commies, give him a call and team up.


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

Lmao you guys are out there. Its like arguing with robots.


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

Yup, you're the only one in step.


----------



## Staff Weenie (5 Jan 2013)

How many times have you read Starship Troopers??? It's fiction......

One of the hallmarks of a democracy is that the military answers to the elected officials. I would suspect that almost every serving soldier in the CF supports that system.  We go where we are told, and we do what we are told. We are a tool for the elected government to use in achieving the will of the people.

If you cannot accept or handle this fact, do not join the CF, there is no place for you.


----------



## slayer/raptor (5 Jan 2013)

To Hagan_91, I'm guessing you're about 21.  I know you think you know a lot about politics and that you know more than the average person, it is good to have a strong opinion about something.  However, I am going to tell you something, I remember being 21-22ish graduating from university with a political science degree from RMC, thinking I knew lots about politics and military use.  I now have 9 years in the army and I realize I knew nothing back then compared to now.  I've learned so much from actually being in the army, serving with NCOs and Officers who have been in longer than me, and from actually deploying on operations.  What you think is black and white is very much grey, you have no idea the decisions facing military and political leaders. As a pending soldier, you're gonna have to learn to swallow your pride and realize when you have lost an argument and be able to take advice from senior professionals who actually have experience and knowledge in the field that you are discussing. 

Also, proper grammar check can go a long way to not discredit your arguments, I'd say about your last 5 posts have had major grammatical mistakes.


----------



## hagan_91 (5 Jan 2013)

Theres no argument here, just that people cant accept that i have a different opinion on how things should run. I'm entitled to my opinion, respect that and move on.


----------



## Jed (5 Jan 2013)

Hagan91, I foresee a time in the future,  say 10 or 20 years from now, you will say to yourself; 'Jeez, I was an idiot back then, I hope those people I insulted forgave me for my stupidity'.


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> Theres no argument here, just that people cant accept that i have a different opinion on how things should run. I'm entitled to my opinion, respect that and move on.



You really need to read what you post better. If you mean something else then you'd better improve at communicating that.

Some listening silence ought to help with this, and give our members a break.


----------



## Edward Campbell (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> You people cant handle the fact that not everyone shares your opinions. When will this country wake up. Were rotting from the inside out. Democracy needs to be revised. This isnt a day an age where the majority has there nose in politics. Media has made sure that our focus is far from the current stage of our country. Soldiers fight and die there, and get no influence. The people who sit on there ass and play Call of duty all day, and watch fashion tv all night influence a situation like this, that dont even know where mali is let alone whats going on there.




No, what we "can't handle" is people with silly, sophomoric, uninformed and ill considered opinions ideas who try to fob them off as something they are not.

In my estimation - many years of experience and a pretty good education (and the rank to prove I had both plus reasonable judgement) - you are not yet qualified to have opinions on anything much beyond Justin Bieber vs. Beyonce.

All the arguing and bombast in the world is not going to make your opinions valid.

And, with that:

 :ignore:


----------



## Kat Stevens (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> Theres no argument here, just that people cant accept that i have a different opinion on how things should run. I'm entitled to my opinion, respect that and move on.



Absolutely you have a right to your opinion, and to express it, as we do ours.  You've stated it, it has been rebutted, and you continue to try to ram it down our throats.  That, quite frankly, is getting boring, and is driving this thread rapidly toward the shitter.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jan 2013)

hagan_91 said:
			
		

> Its not laughable to somebody who see do macracy as a reason the world is where it is.Everyday citizens who know more about Kim and kanyes new baby then about anything relative to history, politics, economics, and defense are in charge of voting our leaders in (half are brainless goofs that care only about there wallet then the welfare of citizens)and dictating our policies made in any field. Qualifications should be needed in order for one to vote. That's an argument ill make another day and keep this on track. Also to your next point. I never said you should have say, if you reread and focus you ll notice i said the word "influence".



For a start, you better begin following the Guidelines. Start using the spellcheck, proper grammar, punctuation and capitalization. Your borderline trolling opinion is hard enough to read and understand without you throwing in all the illiterate and academically ignorant garbage to make it more difficult.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

I muted him, you folks can get back to a reasonable and educated discussion.

Scott
Staff


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> I muted him, you folks can get back to a reasonable and educated discussion.
> 
> Scott
> Staff



He's also been bumped to the last chance rung on the ladder for persistant trolling since becoming a member.

Minet.ca Staff


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

Ah yes, just reviewed my PMs and remember the former situation now. Another case of us _clearly_ misunderstanding him. 

Hagan, you're on your last leg here. Learn or go away.


----------



## dapaterson (5 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> Some days I hate the internet.



You're just not looking at the right places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-TA57L0kuc


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> He's also been bumped to the last chance rung on the ladder for persistant trolling since becoming a member.
> 
> Minet.ca Staff



Your signature laments the scourge of political correctness, but ironically, anyone who deviates from this forum's political correctness is labelled a troll or limited in his posting. You should watch out for that.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (5 Jan 2013)

john10 said:
			
		

> Your signature laments the scourge of political correctness, but ironically, anyone who deviates from this forum's political correctness is labelled a troll or limited in his posting. You should watch out for that.



You are mistaking a relatively normal standard for intellectual discourse for political correctness.

Another way of saying it is that we expect correctness about things political.


----------



## cupper (5 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Nah ... one of these days I'll master English grammar.  :-\
> .
> .
> .
> ...



You realize that in this day and age gay has a completely different connotation.  ;D

Or is there something you want to tell us? :-*


----------



## cupper (5 Jan 2013)

Damn, those last 2 pages were hard on my head. :facepalm:

I'd rather see a training mission than a full blown battle group doing a chapter 6 or 7 mission.

Some wise person once said: "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime"

Question for those who have done such missions, is it a cultural issue that causes the problems, or systemic issues with the 3rd world (i.e. poverty, lack of education, corruption)?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Jan 2013)

john10 said:
			
		

> Your signature laments the scourge of political correctness, but ironically, anyone who deviates from this forum's political correctness is labelled a troll or limited in his posting. You should watch out for that.


Unless you're aware of the complete backstory, you should attempt to reserve your judgments on how the Staff  perform our duties.

You , should watch out for that


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> You are mistaking a relatively normal standard for intellectual discourse for political correctness.
> 
> Another way of saying it is that we expect correctness about things political.


No, not at all.

The political correctness I am referring to is exemplified by certain guiding tenets such as "Canadian soldiers are victims of the media" or "the elder statesmen of the forum are always right". Any questioning of these politically correct statements is met with post deletions and restrictions.

See how quickly this post gets taken down, as an example of the intolerance that greets posts that stray from the politically correct line. My guess: within the day. That's perfectly fine. This is a private message board and its owners are free to manage it as they want, but let's not kid ourselves that the directing staff here is against political correctness. It is very much in favour of it, and enforces it strictly.


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Unless you're aware of the complete backstory, you should attempt to reserve your judgments on how the Staff  perform our duties.
> 
> You , should watch out for that


 It is based on my participation to this forum, and how every time I question the politically correct notion that Canadian soldiers are being unfairly victimized, my posts and privileges are restricted.

In this particular thread, although I completely disagree with the young fellow, the same attitude of political correctness is being applied to him.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (5 Jan 2013)

We have whole threads dedicated to how "the owners" suck at managing this board,....they are still there somehow.

Now, at the risk of political correctness,....let's get this back on topic. We have plenty of "the Mod's suck" threads in the admin section.

Bruce
Staff


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2013)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> We have whole threads dedicated to how "the owners" suck at managing this board,....they are still there somehow.
> 
> Now, at the risk of political correctness,....let's get this back on topic. We have plenty of "the Mod's suck" threads in the admin section.
> 
> ...


 My posts are very much on topic.

We have a young fellow here who is very argumentative and with whom most posters, me included, disagree. But that doesn't make him a troll. He's not posting to aggravate others, he's posting because he genuinely believes what he writes.

Now if you claim political correctness isn't so pervasive here, then next time a poster writes something like "the media quote army forums" or "90% of journalists are liars or stupid" and I question it, let the discussion flow so that we can see how well those types of statements stand up to scrutiny.


----------



## Good2Golf (5 Jan 2013)

john10 said:
			
		

> My posts are very much on topic.
> 
> We have a young fellow here who is very argumentative and with whom most posters, me included, disagree. But that doesn't make him a troll. He's not posting to aggravate others, he's posting because he genuinely believes what he writes.
> 
> Now if you claim political correctness isn't so pervasive here, then next time a poster writes something like "the media quote army forums" or "90% of journalists are liars or stupid" and I question it, let the discussion flow so that we can see how well those types of statements stand up to scrutiny.



If the topic is Canada weighing options for conducting a potential military training mission in West Africa (Mali), could you point to any one of your posts in this thread that are on the subject topic.  ???

It seems that your posts are based on your taking issue with how another poster is being dealt with by the moderators; that has nothing at all to do with the thread's actual topic.


Regards
G2G


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## Sythen (5 Jan 2013)

Its a sad day when having a relatively low standard for behaviour is seen as being overly sensitive by some.


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

john10 said:
			
		

> My posts are very much on topic.
> 
> We have a young fellow here who is very argumentative and with whom most posters, me included, disagree. But that doesn't make him a troll. He's not posting to aggravate others, he's posting because he genuinely believes what he writes.
> 
> Now if you claim political correctness isn't so pervasive here, then next time a poster writes something like "the media quote army forums" or "90% of journalists are liars or stupid" and I question it, let the discussion flow so that we can see how well those types of statements stand up to scrutiny.



No. The person in question refuses to take into account anything said to him in rebuttal and makes it out like we are reading him wrong. He's also got a history here with that, and with posting some very questionable content - which you might indeed be right about being taken down...because it was fucking racist. 

As G2G points out, you stay pretty well off topic. Hagan wasn't trolling at all from m view...but you are.


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> If the topic is Canada weighing options for conducting a potential military training mission in West Africa (Mali), could you point to any one of your posts in this thread that are on the subject topic.  ???
> 
> It seems that your posts are based on your taking issue with how another poster is being dealt with by the moderators; that has nothing at all to do with the thread's actual topic.
> 
> ...


 The topic came up when recceguy, who purports to be against political correctness, said that a poster was a troll. I'm expressing my opinion that even though I disagree with him, I don't think he's a troll. Take it up with recceguy if you don't think the topic is relevant. Do the politically incorrect thing and tell a staff member that he's off topic.


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> No. The person in question refuses to take into account anything said to him in rebuttal and makes it out like we are reading him wrong. He's also got a history here with that, and with posting some very questionable content - which you might indeed be right about being taken down...because it was ******* racist.
> 
> As G2G points out, you stay pretty well off topic. Hagan wasn't trolling at all from m view...but you are.


 There's no doubt hagan is obnoxious and argumentative. 

But those are often the characteristics of people who stray from political correctness.

I find it ironic that recceguy, who by his signature, claims to be against political correctness, berates a guy for not adhering to the forum orthodoxy of bowing down before anything that E.R. Campbell writes.


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2013)

And again, if I am off topic in making that observation, then be coherent and tell the staff member that he is too.


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

john10 said:
			
		

> There's no doubt hagan is obnoxious and argumentative.
> 
> But those are often the characteristics of people who stray from political correctness.
> 
> I find it ironic that recceguy, who by his signature, claims to be against political correctness, berates a guy for not adhering to the forum orthodoxy of bowing down before anything that E.R. Campbell writes.



You missed the part about the very questionable content. Convenient of you.

I'm not recceguy and I am telling you that you're trolling. Not because you're being politically incorrect - but *because you're trolling*.

I make that leap because you've done nothing to discuss the topic and have only served to drag more and more people into this little bunfight you want.

Next step is you being muted. Then you can kick and scream all you want about political correctness or how the Staff was out to get you - but you'll be doing it with yourself.


----------



## Sythen (5 Jan 2013)

john10 said:
			
		

> There's no doubt hagan is obnoxious and argumentative.
> 
> But those are often the characteristics of people who stray from political correctness.
> 
> I find it ironic that recceguy, who by his signature, claims to be against political correctness, berates a guy for not adhering to the forum orthodoxy of bowing down before anything that E.R. Campbell writes.



If that's the way you feel, you don't have to visit this forum, you know? Seems the only one being "politically correct" here is yourself. There has been PLENTY of contrary views and opinions posted here.. Look at Redeye.. And there was someone who used to post a lot of Leftist view points before him that I can't remember his name. Are you surprised that people are tend to lean Right agree with the knowledgeable and well written posts ERC typically contributes? You are being overly sensitive because the forum expects people to back up any statements made by facts. You want people to listen to you just because you want to talk. That is political correctness.. Believing you are entitled to something (being listened to) just because you're you.


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

john10 said:
			
		

> And again, if I am off topic in making that observation, then be coherent and tell the staff member that he is too.



I'll do nothing of the sort. The Staff member was doing their job as Staff. Just because you disagree, or have an issue with said Staff member, doesn't give you the right to derail a thread that has already suffered that fate enough.

Final warning.


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2013)

Sythen said:
			
		

> If that's the way you feel, you don't have to visit this forum, you know? Seems the only one being "politically correct" here is yourself. There has been PLENTY of contrary views and opinions posted here..* Look at Redeye*.. And there was someone who used to post a lot of Leftist view points before him that I can't remember his name. Are you surprised that people are tend to lean Right agree with the knowledgeable and well written posts ERC typically contributes? You are being overly sensitive because the forum expects people to back up any statements made by facts. You want people to listen to you just because you want to talk. That is political correctness.. Believing you are entitled to something (being listened to) just because you're you.


 Yes indeed, look at Redeye, he was banned!


----------



## john10 (5 Jan 2013)

Scott said:
			
		

> You missed the part about the very questionable content. Convenient of you.
> 
> I'm not recceguy and I am telling you that you're trolling. Not because you're being politically incorrect - but *because you're trolling*.
> 
> ...


 Scott,
The point is that just because someone posts something you disagree with, and is obnoxious in the process, that doesn't make him a troll.

And if you claim to be against political correctness, you should have a lot of tolerance for posters who stray from the paradigm of military self-victimization that permeates this forum.


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

Redeye was banned for many reasons, none of which you would be privy to.



			
				john10 said:
			
		

> Scott,
> The point is that just because someone posts something you disagree with, and is obnoxious in the process, that doesn't make him a troll.
> 
> And if you claim to be against political correctness, you should have a lot of tolerance for posters who stray from the paradigm of military self-victimization that permeates this forum.



Pounding the same weak point (again, there is a history of trolling with hagan. Just because this doesn't meet YOUR definition does not make Staff the PC police) over and over is getting old.

We have loads of tolerance - you managed a boatload of silly posts tonight.

Oh look:


			
				Scott said:
			
		

> I'll do nothing of the sort. The Staff member was doing their job as Staff. Just because you disagree, or have an issue with said Staff member, doesn't give you the right to derail a thread that has already suffered that fate enough.
> 
> Final warning.



Thanks more making it easy for me, bub. Enjoy listening silence.


----------



## Sythen (5 Jan 2013)

john10 said:
			
		

> Yes indeed, look at Redeye, he was banned!



Redeye was banned after so many warnings it was ridiculous.. He was given far more than most people are. Its not the fact he was Leftist that got him banned.. Its he called everyone who disagreed with him an idiot, continually. Guess you could say he was banned for doing what you're saying the mods are doing.


----------



## Scott (5 Jan 2013)

john's been silenced. If someone else on the staff wants to throw him on the ladder they can. I'm done playing with dolts tonight. (see that john? New category. No PCness there)


----------



## cupper (5 Jan 2013)

Oy Vay!


----------



## Edward Campbell (5 Jan 2013)

There has to be some "vital interest" identified ~ other than Mr. Fowler's misplaced sympathy (maybe coupled with a desire to see Canada do something a bit more "independent" of the US policy) ~ before we contemplate a military mission into landlocked Africa. What, exactly, happens if _Al Qaeda_, whatever _Al Qaeda_ is these days, establishes a foothold in Mali? can they turn it into another Afghanistan _circa_ 2000? Or will they find it to be a millstone around their neck?

I happen to believe that there IS a (slow burning) crisis in Africa but I also believe that the solutions are, essentially, political and require a new sense, by Africans, of what Africa is and what it needs to be. I also believe that Canada, and other modern, sophisticated countries without too much political _baggage_ (colonialism, heavy handed interventionism, etc) can play a useful role ~ but not right now. I think a new political consensus needs to arise in Africa first - they they can ask for help and we can provide it. "Help" imposed upon them now will, I  fear do more harm than good.

What kind of political consensus? One that, first and foremost, backs off the existing mantra that Africa's q19th century colonial borders have any utility or meaning today. Until that happens I think Africa is doomed to have internecine wars over borders and resources.


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## dapaterson (5 Jan 2013)

Is Mr Fowler sympathetic or seeking revenge?


----------



## a_majoor (6 Jan 2013)

cupper said:
			
		

> Question for those who have done such missions, is it a cultural issue that causes the problems, or systemic issues with the 3rd world (i.e. poverty, lack of education, corruption)?



Yes


----------



## jeffb (6 Jan 2013)

I have no experience at all doing missions like this so this is an honest question. Instead of us going there, why can't we just bring them over here? Why not bring a company, battalion, group of officers etc. over to Canada and plop them down in Wainwright or some such place for 6 months? That way we can avoid all the associated risks with foreign deployments (both financial and casualty) while building capacity. Has this ever been tried by anyone?


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Jan 2013)

jeffb said:
			
		

> I have no experience at all doing missions like this so this is an honest question. Instead of us going there, why can't we just bring them over here? Why not bring a company, battalion, group of officers etc. over to Canada and plop them down in Wainwright or some such place for 6 months? That way we can avoid all the associated risks with foreign deployments (both financial and casualty) while building capacity. Has this ever been tried by anyone?



Not a bad idea, jeffb!  

Truth be told, we do already on a (very) small scale.  From time to time, Malian junior officers attend the Army Operations Course at the Canadian Army Command and Staff College in Kingston.


Regards
G2G


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## Journeyman (6 Jan 2013)

Canada routinely trains foreign officers here, developing skills from languages to planning and logistics to combat training. I think that bringing Malians to Canada is a much better option than sending our troops over there, for all of the previously-mentioned reasons of "opportunity costs" for the CF and the Canadian government.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Jan 2013)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Not a bad idea, jeffb!
> 
> Truth be told, we do already on a (very) small scale.  From time to time, Malian junior officers attend the Army Operations Course at the Canadian Army Command and Staff College in Kingston.
> 
> ...



They are also affiliated with Directorate of Military Trg & Cooperation (DMTC) 

see affiliated country list here:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/admpol/MTCPmembers-eng.html


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (6 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Canada routinely trains foreign officers here, developing skills from languages to planning and logistics to combat training. I think that bringing Malians to Canada is a much better option than sending our troops over there, for all of the previously-mentioned reasons of "opportunity costs" for the CF and the Canadian government.



I know that some Malians attend the JCSC in Aldershot every year; however, I had heard rumours that this program was being closed up and that some other DMTC programs were potentially on the chopping block.  Anyone know anything about this?  It would seem counter-intuitive to close down some of our schools we run for foreign students only to send our soldiers over there to conduct training.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Canada routinely trains foreign officers here, developing skills from languages to planning and logistics to combat training. I think that bringing Malians to Canada is a much better option than sending our troops over there, for all of the previously-mentioned reasons of "opportunity costs" for the CF and the Canadian government.


Good point but that won't make headlines, nor please those talking heads that demand the government "do something".


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 Jan 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Is Mr Fowler sympathetic or seeking revenge?




My guess, and it might be a _sympathetic_ guess because (as some know) I respect Mr. Fowler and his opinions, is that his primary motive is to break what he sees as an unhealthy 'policy proximity' to Washington. He might, also, see a mission like this, where Washington's involvement might be slight, as a chance for Canada to play a leading role. I also think that he does have a great deal of sympathy for Africa's plight. Finally, I think he really does fear Al Qaeda and is not convinced that it has lost its will or ability to attack us ... if it can find a firm base.


----------



## Old Sweat (6 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> My guess, and it might be a _sympathetic_ guess because (as some know) I respect Mr. Fowler and his opinions, is that his primary motive is to break what he sees as an unhealthy 'policy proximity' to Washington. He might, also, see a mission like this, where Washington's involvement might be slight, as a chance for Canada to play a leading role. I also think that he does have a great deal of sympathy for Africa's plight. Finally, I think he really does fear Al Qaeda and is not convinced that it has lost its will or ability to attack us ... if it can find a firm base.



And Mr. Fowler was taken hostage in Mali while on a mission for the UN. He may indeed be predisposed to see things through that prism. The other issue is that the elected leadership of the country was ousted by a military coup, which resulted in our training team being withdrawn. That may account for the reluctance of Mr. Baird et al at DFAIT. However, one may think Mr. Mackay was freelancing when he mused about sending more trainers, but another scenario would label his words as a trial balloon. One could also wonder if the government was not trying to cut off Bob Fowler and his ilk by raising the issue prematurely. Hmm, all I have done is confuse myself, but no matter how hard I try, I find if difficult to find a good reason to jump into the mess.


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 Jan 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> ... no matter how hard I try, I find if difficult to find a good reason to jump into the mess.




 :ditto:


----------



## brihard (6 Jan 2013)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> And Mr. Fowler was taken hostage in Mali while on a mission for the UN. He may indeed be predisposed to see things through that prism. The other issue is that the elected leadership of the country was ousted by a military coup, which resulted in our training team being withdrawn. That may account for the reluctance of Mr. Baird et al at DFAIT. However, one may think Mr. Mackay was freelancing when he mused about sending more trainers, but another scenario would label his words as a trial balloon. One could also wonder if the government was not trying to cut off Bob Fowler and his ilk by raising the issue prematurely. Hmm, all I have done is confuse myself, but no matter how hard I try, I find if difficult to find a good reason to jump into the mess.



I'm more inclined to think that MacKay's statement was along the lines of floating a trial baloon- send it up so that the government communications wonks could gauge and meter the response from the public on a host of issues - what we (Canadians) envision our post-Kandahar military role being, whether Canadians happen to care about Africa at the moment, and whether there's any taste for us getting involved in a more concrete international role while still with an end state clearly aligned with the security concerns we collectively share with our allies.

But yes- I think you've hit a nail on the head WRT the military coup and resultant reticence to be involved there; not wanting to be seen to reinforce such things and all that. I guess that plays off against the costs of not acting while the entrenchment of AQIM in Mali is relatively fresh.

So, looking around the room here- does anyone realistically see a major training mission in Mali NOT (intentionally or unintentionally) being a 'camel's nose under the tent flap' for a longer and more likely more kinetic engagement down the road? I see considerable risk of that, particularly now that the magical words 'al Qaeda' have been spoken.


----------



## CombatDoc (6 Jan 2013)

A story in today's Ottawa Citizen speculates that the PM may be asked for some sort of military assistance by the President of the African Union.  I suspect that any assistance, if authorized, would be limited and fairly small scale i.e. not on the scale of Op Attention.  IMO there would be both limited finances and public support available for any sort of larger scale, expeditionary op.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/African+Union+chair+meet+Harper+Canada+mulls+support+Mali/7781691/story.html


----------



## BrendenDias (8 Jan 2013)

http://ckom.com/content/fowler-blasts-tories-over-mali-troop-request

I do think Harper will only allow a training mission... but what will the CF ground troops go while and after they start to head back from Afghanistan?


----------



## Journeyman (8 Jan 2013)

B.Dias said:
			
		

> ... but what will the CF ground troops go while and after they start to head back from Afghanistan?


Uh, what?   ???


----------



## BrendenDias (8 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> cf, wat
> Uh, what?   ???


Ugh, sorry, new laptop..    :-\ :facepalm:
I am curious at what Harper's plans are in regards to his next military move. If a placement of ground troops is not an option for the CF, I was pondering what the next move for the forces will be, if not Mali. It doesn't seem like the Harper government has a liking in peacekeeping, so what would be next.. hmm..


----------



## Old Sweat (8 Jan 2013)

Mr. Fowler will not give up. Here he claims that a UNSC resolution is a request for Canada to deploy troops to the region, a point the government is at pains to deny. The story is reproduced under the Fair Dealings provision of the Copyright Act.


Fowler blasts Tories for saying Canada has not been asked to send troops to Mali

By: Mike Blanchfield, The Canadian Press

 OTTAWA - Robert Fowler, the retired Canadian diplomat who was kidnapped by terrorists in Africa, blasted the Harper government Monday for saying it has not been asked to contribute to the international military mission to Mali.

Fowler condemned the government for advancing that position on the eve of a meeting between Prime Minister Stephen and the head of the African Union in Ottawa, where a request for a Canadian troop contribution was widely expected.

Fowler, a former Canadian ambassador to the United Nations, accused the government of ignoring last month's resolution by the UN Security Council that called on all countries to contribute to halt the spread of terrorism that has taken root in Mali.

"The government has been asked. In the Security Council resolution 2085 of 20 December, the Security Council urges member states — of which I believe Canada is still one — to provide a whole set of things, including military training, provision of equipment, intelligence, logistics support and any necessary assistance to reduce the threat posed by terrorist organizations," Fowler told The Canadian Press.

"Therefore, we have been asked."

Earlier in the day, a government official who spoke only on condition on anonymity offered the exact opposite view.

"Nothing has been asked of us as yet," the official told The Canadian Press.

Harper hosts AU President Thomas Boni Yayi on Tuesday on Parliament Hill, where the chaos and violence that have gripped Mali for much of the last year will be high on their agenda.

Mali was struck by a military coup in March and now has a group linked to al-Qaida controlling its north.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay stoked speculation about the mission last week when he said Canada would be willing to send military trainers.

The office of Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird countered that Canada was not contemplating a military mission to Mali — the same position the government official put forth again on Monday.

"We will wait to hear what people are requesting, if they are requesting anything," the official said.

"As minister Baird has said, we're not contemplating a military mission, and minister Baird is on the record with that. It's the government's position."

Fowler denounced that position, saying Canada does not need a special invitation following the passage of the recent UN resolution.

"This is how one asks. It's a way that enables some people to pretend they haven't been asked. But they've been asked. All member states have been asked," Fowler said.

"It is a clear invitation to anybody that can, and anybody that cares, to play."

Fowler urged Harper to answer the renewed personal request he expects he will receive in Tuesday's meeting with a resounding yes.

Fowler came face-to-face with the threat that is currently destabilizing Mali and its West African neighbours when he and fellow Canadian diplomat, Louis Guay, were kidnapped in 2008 and held for 130 days by the Islamic Maghreb, the al-Qaida linked group in Mali.

At the time, Fowler was the UN special envoy to Niger, where he and Guay were abducted.

"We're going to have to intervene now or later. And it will be a lot more expensive and a lot bloodier later," Fowler said.

"Quite often I'm asked, 'How are you doing?' And my usual answer is: 'I'm doing fine, and so too is al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb.' They now have a country. They have a base, and they are doing what they told me they would do.

"They told us that their objective was to spread the chaos and anarchy of Somalia across the Sahel region from the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic, and in that chaos their jihad would thrive. And that's what they're doing."

The official said Harper is well aware that Boni Yayi is an advocate of military intervention in Mali, but that the government doesn't want to get involved in a military mission there.

Harper is expecting a full briefing on the latest developments in Mali, but the official would not say whether the prime minister was expecting an "ask" from Boni Yayi.

Mali was a stable recipient of Canadian aid and one of the continent's best partners before its democratically elected government was toppled by a military coup in March.

That enabled al-Qaida's African affiliate to swoop into the north and capture the largest piece of land that the terrorist network has ever held.

Two analysts agreed Monday that Canada had a duty to contribute to the international military force, to stop the spread of terrorism across Africa.

But they offered sharply different views on what could be in store for the Canadian Forces.

"We should also be under no illusion that such a training mission will be easy or can be undertaken without making substantial investments on the ground," said Fen Hampson, head of the global security program at the Centre for International Governance Innovation in Waterloo, Ont.

"There is no quick fix here and we should not be doing something just to feel good about ourselves. We either get serious or we don't do it at all."

Andrew Grant, an Africa expert at Queen's University, said that the government needs to help a country with which it has had a stable 40-year relationship.

"I think they will contribute, but it's not going to be an overly robust contribution. You're not going to see active engagement by Canadian troops out in the field."


----------



## Edward Campbell (8 Jan 2013)

Technically, Mr. Fowler is correct. In _UN speak_ a UNSC Resolution is at the "top of the heap" (above _statements_ and _recommendations_ and several other sorts of documents), and members, of which Canada is one, have agreed, upon signing up for membership, to be bound by such resolutions. This one is fairly strongly worded but while it _Urges_ and _Calls upon_ members state, in general, and some organizations (like the African Union) to do some things it doesn't _Decide_ to deploy a UN force, _per se_ and it only (rarely) _Requests_ some actions by some members/organizations.

_Decide_ and _Request_ are "higher order" action verbs than _Urge_ and _Call upon_. Compare it to the language in UNGA Resolution 377(V) which called us to war in Korea in 1950: 377(V) was clear and unambiguous; 2085 is far less so.

Prime Minister Harper does have a smoke screen behind which to take cover.


----------



## cupper (8 Jan 2013)

Gotta love diplo-speak. 

200 different ways to nicely say "F you, just f'n do it or I will kick your ...."


----------



## on-hold (8 Jan 2013)

Training these countries should be done through improving the Officer Corps and NCO's. No more then a company, or two. Special ops should take the lead in capture/kill missions of AQ leaders and key members. We should not do nothing, because we do not want Africa to be a safe haven for AQ like the middle east and other Asian nations.

My   :2c:


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Jan 2013)

Maybe we can raise a Gurkha regiment with Canadian officers stationed off of Canadian soil and rent them to the UN for this sort of stuff. I can just see a hardened Gurkha NCO attempting to discussing tactics with a Young Quebecois Officer with a heavy Gaspe' accent, with a Newfie Major trying to translate.


----------



## a_majoor (8 Jan 2013)

on-hold said:
			
		

> Training these countries should be done through improving the Officer Corps and NCO's. No more then a company, or two. Special ops should take the lead in capture/kill missions of AQ leaders and key members. We should not do nothing, because we do not want Africa to be a safe haven for AQ like the middle east and other Asian nations.
> 
> My   :2c:



While the basic idea is correct, most nations that did not have a Commonwealth or British background do not see or use officers and NCO's the way we do. In many nations, NCO ranks indicate technical specialists; i.e. the guy who knows how to use the radio or drive the APC. Junior officers often are left to do the tasks "we" leave for the NCO's. One result of this cultural difference can be seen with the UNMO's: although Sgts train theme here at PSTC, and are quite capable of doing the job, Canadian officers act as UNMO's because "over there" a Canadian NCO would be looked upon as some sort of glorified servant and treated that way (at least until someone's lights got punched out).

Now while it is possible to massively retool a military force, we need to think of the time and resources needed, not to mention the various cultural and institutional obstacles in the way of doing so (both in Canada and the receiving nation).


----------



## on-hold (8 Jan 2013)

Good insight Thucydides. I didn't know it worked like that over there. So I guess what your saying is, the focus should remain in developing the officer corps, therefore allowing there own newly trained officers, to apply training to his own ranks as need be?


----------



## Edward Campbell (8 Jan 2013)

According to a report in the _Globe and Mail_ while the AU is seeking some kind of NATO assistance Prime Minister Harper has ruled out a Canadian military mission.

President Thomas Boni Yayi of Benin, current head of the African Union, said he would like to see NATO play a "direct role, alongside an African led force." There might be some sense in what he says ~ image a force in which the AU provides ALL the conventional infantry, armour and artillery forces while NATO provides logistics support, C3 systems, including staffs but NOT the force commander, aviation and, maybe, even engineer support.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (8 Jan 2013)

Harper says no Canadian military mission in Mali
African Union leader calls for NATO assistance
By Laura Payton, CBC News Posted: Jan 8, 2013 1:25 PM ET Last Updated: Jan 8, 2013 3:16 PM ET






Prime Minister Stephen Harper, meeting with African Union leader and Benin President Thomas Boni Yahi, says Canada is not considering a direct military mission in Mali, despite concern about al-Qaeda's growing influence in the country. (Adrian Wyld/Canadian Press)

Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Canada is not considering a direct military mission in Mali, despite concern about al-Qaeda's growing influence in the country.

Canada is consulting its allies in the West and working diplomatically with its friends in Africa, Harper said Tuesday.

"Obviously we are very concerned about the situation. The development of essentially an entire terrorist region in the middle of Africa is obviously of great concern to everyone in the international community," he said.

Harper was meeting with Thomas Boni Yayi, president of the Republic of Benin and chairman of the African Union, who said he wants to see NATO add its forces to the African forces tasked with dealing with Mali.

"There are also other forces outside the African continent that could contribute to take into account the seriousness of the situation and the resources that are required to implement this," Boni Yayi said.

"We need to react for the simple reason that this issue goes well beyond the scope of Africa, but also we must focus on the fact that the scourge of terrorism is an issue of the entire international community."

Mali was struck by a military coup last March and now has a group linked to al-Qaeda controlling its north.

The UN Security Council backed a proposal in December to send an African-led force of 3,300 soldiers into the country, but the resolution also called for broader international assistance.

Harper and Boni Yayi announced they have signed a foreign investment protection agreement. The agreement locks in legally binding provisions, such as on non-discrimination and free movement of capital, according to a release from Harper's office.

Harper also announced $18 million from 2013 to 2021 to help Benin improve its tax collection and policy implementation.

"We need internal revenue collection in order to have more independence," Boni Yayi said.

With files from The Canadian Press


----------



## Kat Stevens (8 Jan 2013)

Let the "we have to do something!!" screaming begin in 3...2...1...


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> .... image a force in which the AU provides ALL the conventional infantry, armour and artillery forces while *NATO provides logistics support, C3 systems*, including staffs but NOT the force commander, aviation and, maybe, even engineer support.


1 Canadian Div HQ - one step pace forward, march?  :evil:


----------



## Old Sweat (8 Jan 2013)

Note the "no direct military mission" line. That gives Canada lots of wiggle room one way or the other. I fear there is something afoot, but what remains to be seen.


----------



## Infanteer (8 Jan 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> 1 Canadian Div HQ - one step forward, march?  :evil:



Deploy the CJIATF!


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Jan 2013)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Deploy the CJIATF!


You make it sound like the kraken.


----------



## Kat Stevens (8 Jan 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> You make it sound like the kraken.



More tentacles than the Kraken.


----------



## Armymedic (8 Jan 2013)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Deploy the CJIATF!



WTF is that?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (8 Jan 2013)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> WTF is that?



Combined Joint InterAgency Task Force.....


----------



## Armymedic (8 Jan 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Combined Joint InterAgency Task Force.....



Combined, Joint, Interagency.....?

I understand those terms independently of each other; but who or what is that?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (8 Jan 2013)

It just sounds cooler when you put all those words together.  Just go with it, Man.  8)


----------



## PPCLI Guy (8 Jan 2013)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Combined, Joint, Interagency.....?
> 
> I understand those terms independently of each other; but who or what is that?



It is how 1 Can Div is re-branding themselves: Canada's Deployable CJIATF.

A word to the wise:  Comd 1 Can Div gets irate when you misspell Deployable as Deplorable


----------



## Armymedic (8 Jan 2013)

My daily military subject is complete for another day.


----------



## dapaterson (8 Jan 2013)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> It is how 1 Can Div is re-branding themselves: Canada's Deployable CJIATF.
> 
> A word to the wise:  Comd 1 Can Div gets irate when you misspell Deployable as Deplorable



I don't see a typo there...


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Jan 2013)

> NATO said Wednesday that it had not been asked to assist a military alliance in resolving the armed conflict in Mali as Burkina Faso's president pushed for renewed talks between Islamist fighters and the Malian government.
> 
> According to NATO, no request was made for it to assist West African forces in retaking control of Mali's north. The organisation was responding to comments made on Tuesday by the African Union chairman, Benin's President Thomas Yayi Boni, urging NATO to intervene.
> 
> ...


AFP, 9 Jan 13


----------



## a_majoor (9 Jan 2013)

GoC makes the call. Dodged another bullet, for now...

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/09/kelly-mcparland-harper-makes-the-right-call-on-military-mission-to-mali/



> *Kelly McParland: Harper makes the right call on military mission to Mali*
> Kelly McParland | Jan 9, 2013 10:44 AM ET
> More from Kelly McParland | @KellyMcParland
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Jan 2013)

> *French forces arrived Friday to help Malian soldiers fight against radical Islamists, drawing the former colonial power into a military operation to oust the al-Qaida-linked militants nine months after they seized control of northern Mali.*
> 
> The arrival of the French dramatically ups the stakes in a conflict taking place in a swath of lawless desert where terrorism and kidnapping have flourished.
> 
> ...


AP, 11 Jan 13

Edited to add:  Maybe with some help from the Germans?
http://english.ruvr.ru/2013_01_11/French-German-troops-land-in-Mali/


----------



## The Bread Guy (11 Jan 2013)

Let's see how well it goes for France....
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/1091/post-1200714.html#msg1200714


----------



## on-hold (11 Jan 2013)

Being a former french colony, and its distance to the french mainland, it seems to be a rational decision by France. Hopefully more countries step up if need be.


----------



## GAP (11 Jan 2013)

Well, that didn't take long.....

Malian army beats back Islamist rebels with French help
Fri, Jan 11 18:20 PM EST
Article Link
 By John Irish and Bate Felix

PARIS/BAMAKO (Reuters) - Malian government troops drove back Islamist rebels from a strategic central town after France intervened on Friday with air strikes to halt advances by the militants controlling the country's desert north.

Western governments, particularly former colonial power France, had voiced alarm after the al Qaeda-linked rebel alliance captured the town of Konna on Thursday, a gateway towards the capital Bamako 600 km (375 miles) south.

President Francois Hollande said France would not stand by to watch the rebels push southward. Paris has repeatedly warned that the Islamists' seizure of the country's north in April gave them a base to attack neighboring African countries and Europe.

"We are faced with blatant aggression that is threatening Mali's very existence. France cannot accept this," Hollande, who recently pledged Paris would not to meddle in African affairs, said in a New Year speech to diplomats and journalists.

The president said resolutions by the United Nations Security Council, which in December sanctioned an African-led military intervention in Mali, meant France was acting in accordance with international law.

In Washington, a U.S. official told Reuters that the Pentagon is weighing options in Mali, including intelligence-sharing with France and logistics support.

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius confirmed that France had carried out air strikes against the rebels to prevent them conquering the whole of Mali. He refused to reveal further details, such as whether French troops were on the ground.

France's intervention immediately tipped the military balance of power, with Malian government forces quickly sweeping back into Konna, according to local residents.

"The Malian army has retaken Konna with the help of our military partners. We are there now," Lieutenant Colonel Diaran Kone told Reuters, adding that the army was mopping up Islamist fighters in the surrounding area.

EU SPEEDS UP DEPLOYMENT

A military operation had not been expected until September due to the difficulties of training Malian troops, funding the African force and deploying during the mid-year rainy season. However, Mali's government appealed for urgent military aid from France on Thursday after Islamist fighters took Konna.

EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton called on Friday for "accelerated international engagement" and said the bloc would speed up plans to deploy 200 troops to train Malian forces, initially expected in late February.

The capture of Konna by the rebels - who have imposed strict Sharia Islamic law in northern Mali - had caused panic among residents in the towns of Mopti and Sevare, 60 km (40 miles) to the south. Calm returned, however, after residents reported Western soldiers and foreign military aircraft arriving late on Thursday at Sevare's airport - the main one in the region.

Military analysts said the Western soldiers may have been the first deployment of French special forces.

They voiced doubt, however, whether Friday's action heralded the start of the final operation to retake northern Mali - a harsh, sparsely populated terrain the size of France - as neither the equipment nor ground troops were ready.

"We're not yet at the big intervention," said Mark Schroeder, director for Sub-Saharan Africa analysis for the global risk and security consultancy Stratfor. He said France had been forced to act when the Islamists bore down on Sevare, a vital launching point for future military operations.
More on link


----------



## Armymedic (12 Jan 2013)

French troops on the ground, and French Air Force have engaged the Islamists around city of Konna, north of the strategially vital city of Mopti.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/01/201311225344135492.html

Looks like Canada may have missed the boat on interventions in Mali. Not that that is a big deal, as there is no public support for a CF deployment to another country right now, and the government is busy dealing with the FN chiefs and that "crisis".


----------



## Armymedic (12 Jan 2013)

Well, it is not Mali....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-to-train-forces-in-niger/article7279904/


Ottawa to train forces in Niger.


----------



## Journeyman (12 Jan 2013)

> Ottawa to train forces in Niger.


Interesting headline.  It's not "Canadian Forces" or even "Canada".... it's "Ottawa."  

Maybe they're sending over a bunch of civil service bureaucrats.


----------



## Edward Campbell (12 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Interesting headline.  It's not "Canadian Forces" or even "Canada".... it's "Ottawa."
> 
> Maybe they're sending over a bunch of civil service bureaucrats.




Yes, please, _official_ Ottawa could go minus about 10,000 well paid bureaucrats* and notice nothing but a slight increase in productivity.


-----
* The more lowly paid and extremely well paid ones are, generally, more useful and quite productive - but 10,000 fewer policy analysts, administrators and, above all, IT managers would be a blessing


----------



## Retired AF Guy (12 Jan 2013)

The  BBC  is reporting that a French helicopter pilot was killed in the Mali fighting. Also, one, possibly two French soldiers were killed in a failed attempt to rescue a French hostage in Somalia. Its still unclear whether the hostage was killed in the rescue mission or whether he is still alive.


----------



## larry Strong (12 Jan 2013)

Here is some info on the Somalia raid: 


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/12/world/africa/somalia-helicopter-raid/index.html?hpt=hp_t1



> Mogadishu, Somalia (CNN) -- French forces swooped into Somalia for a rescue mission under the cover of darkness, leading to a fierce gun battle with militants who killed the hostage, the French defense ministry said Saturday.
> 
> The raid Friday night also left a French soldier and 17 Islamist fighters dead, according to the French ministry. Another soldier went missing.
> 
> ...




Larry


----------



## larry Strong (12 Jan 2013)

Lt Damien Boiteux, 4th Special forces Chopper Regt, the officer killed in Mali. And Denis Allex, the hostage they wanted to rescue in Somalia who was killed. It appears, if the rumours are correct that he was a DGSE agent.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Jan 2013)

_The Telegraph_:  Brits helping in the fight, too


> Downing Street confirmed two RAF C-17s would be made available urgently, but added that no British personnel will be deployed in a combat role.
> 
> The move followed a telephone call between David Cameron, the Prime Minister, and Francois Hollande, the French President.
> 
> ...



This from the U.K. PM's Info-machine:


> A Downing Street spokesperson said:
> 
> “The Prime Minister spoke to President Hollande this evening to discuss the deteriorating situation in Mali and how the UK can support French military assistance provided to the Malian Government to contain rebel and extremist groups in the north of the country. The Prime Minister has agreed that the UK will provide logistical military assistance to help transport foreign troops and equipment quickly to Mali. We will not be deploying any British personnel in a combat role. They also agreed that the peacekeeping mission from West African countries needs to be strongly supported by countries in the region and deployed as quickly as possible.
> 
> ...


----------



## on-hold (12 Jan 2013)

RIP to our fallen NATO comrades.


----------



## McG (12 Jan 2013)

I suppose everyone who wants to see a Cdn BG deploy will find it very convenient that France seems to have taken the lead on this mossion while we have a R22eR BG in high readiness.


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Jan 2013)

Mali (via Twitter):  Canada to join others with logistical help.....


> Les #USA, la #GrandeBretagne, le #Canada annoncent leur appui/assistance logistique au #Mali, à la #France et aux troupes ....



DFAIT to Globe & Mail - no change in Canada's position.....


> The Canadian government says reports it has already promised aid to Mali in its fight against Islamist rebels are premature, because Canada has yet to receive a formal request for assistance.
> 
> The office of Mali President Dioncounda Traore announced Sunday that Canada had joined Britain and the United States in providing logistical support for the French and African militaries fighting to block rebel advances in the West African country.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Jan 2013)

FYI, just going to clean up this thread to keep it focussed on Canada's contribution (whatever it might be) to Mali, and move other Mali/African news over to the "Africa in Crisis" merged thread.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Edward Campbell (14 Jan 2013)

Jennifer Welsh, Oxford professor and author/revisor of Prime Minister Paul Martin's almost forgotten foreign policy paper, suggests in this article, which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_, that someone, maybe Canada, needs to intervene in Mali with "boots on the ground:" 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/sending-soldiers-to-mali-may-be-the-only-solution/article7318783/


> Sending soldiers to Mali may be the only solution
> 
> JENNIFER WELSH
> Special to The Globe and Mail
> ...




I can understand why France wants to "help" Mali ... I'm not so sure why anyone else does.


----------



## dimsum (14 Jan 2013)

Turns out one C-17 is going, from the PM's website:

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?category=3&featureId=6&pageId=49&id=5243


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Jan 2013)

More details on OP Serval (France's operation in Mali) from the French MoD site (French here, Google English here), and (with the usual caveats) Wikipedia here.

A round-up of who's throwing what into the Mali fight at this point....


> FRANCE
> 
> France's resources in what they call Operation Serval include:
> 
> ...


----------



## Maxadia (14 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I can understand why France wants to "help" Mali ... I'm not so sure why anyone else does.



Wasn't that the basic mindset back in the mid-late 30's in Europe?  Doesn't affect me?


----------



## Edward Campbell (14 Jan 2013)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Wasn't that the basic mindset back in the mid-late 30's in Europe?  Doesn't affect me?




No, actually, _appeasement_ was rooted in fear, not apathy.


----------



## OldSolduer (14 Jan 2013)

The more I read this, the wise COA is to stay the hell out of Africa, IMO.


----------



## Monsoon (14 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> No, actually, _appeasement_ was rooted in fear, not apathy.


So is the foreign policy approach of, "Maybe someone else will prevent the establishment of a new Al Qaeda rear area in North Africa" fear or apathy? Or wishful thinking? Northern Mali is starting to look a lot like Afghanistan in 1996; it might not thrill the Toronto Star set, but an ounce of prevention now may save a world of heartbreak in a decade.


----------



## on-hold (14 Jan 2013)

I agree with Hamiltongs +1


----------



## Journeyman (14 Jan 2013)

Or is this France, seeing the US foreign policy contracting/moving east, deciding now's a good time to say, "look at us; we're a global power!!  Someone's got to respect us now!   Anyone?   Bueller?"

[/cynicism]


----------



## Edward Campbell (14 Jan 2013)

:goodpost:

And the winner gets ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
+ 300 Milpoints


----------



## Journeyman (14 Jan 2013)

:bowing:

(...although it's often difficult to discern that cynicism/realism line in international relations    )


----------



## Edward Campbell (14 Jan 2013)

Some day, maybe sooner than we all might wish, someone is going to have to _tidy up_ in Africa.

It's going to be a horrendous problem because, in part, very few of the 50_ish_ African nation states make much geo-political sense; most are not _nations_ at all and most are failed states.

There will, almost certainly, have to be a fairly robust military element supporting the long, complicated political processes that will, we must all hope, help Africa to reach its potential.

What sort of military element?

Firstly: mainly and visibly African; and 

Secondly: effective - which means it must have a substantial but not too visible non-African component.

Here is a SWAG (Scientific Wild Assed Guess) as to how such a force might look:

     1. Commander - African;

     2. Staff - mostly Indian (the Indians have a large, skilled army, their staff work is, without question, good enough for such a large, complex operation) with many Africans in staff learner roles and some Westerners in specialist roles;  

     3. Combat Forces - African;

     4. Combat support forces - mix of African, Asian and Western units;

     5. Signal units - mostly Western units;

     6. Air and Aviation - mix of Asian and Western forces;

     7. 2nd line Combat Service Support forces - mainly Asian and Western units;

     8. 3rd line Logistic Support - Asian and Western.

The whole operation - _tidying up_ Africa - will take a generation ... maybe more.


----------



## Edward Campbell (14 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> :bowing:
> 
> (...although it's often difficult to discern that cynicism/realism line in international relations    )




Not at all ... those subtleties never confused Palmerston.


----------



## a_majoor (14 Jan 2013)

We are seeing a version of the process in the Middle East and Northern Africa, as demographics upend old systems and societies (the so called Arab Spring). Masses of young people without jobs and prospects, just ripe for recruitment by various radical groups and ready to fight against apostates, Christians, ethnic minorities or Jews.

Thinking back, Robert Kaplan's article in Atlantic: The Coming Anarchy described much the same process in West Africa, masses of unemployed youth, many of whom were educated, moving about like an unstable gas, and borders that work at cross purposes to the ethnic and often geographic landscape.

Even though The Coming Anarchy dates to 1994, I believe the process is real and Kaplan's prediction will come to pass sooner rather than later.


----------



## 57Chevy (14 Jan 2013)

Mali Islamists gain ground despite French airstrikes; French evacuate citizens from Segou
 The Associated Press  <<<link
By Rukmini CallimacHi And Baba, 14 Jan

BAMAKO, Mali - Despite a punishing aerial bombardment by French warplanes, al-Qaida-linked insurgents grabbed more territory in Mali on Monday, seizing a strategic military camp that brought them far closer to the government's seat of power.

Declaring France had "opened the gates of hell" with its assault, the rebels threatened retribution.

"France ... has fallen into a trap much more dangerous than Iraq, Afghanistan or Somalia," declared Omar Ould Hamaha, a leader of the Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa, one of the rebel groups controlling the north, speaking on French radio Europe 1.

French fighter jets have been pummeling the insurgents' desert stronghold in the north since Friday, determined to shatter the Islamist domination of a region many fear could become a launch pad for terrorist attacks on the West and a base for co-ordination with al-Qaida in Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan.

The Islamist fighters responded with a counter-offensive Monday, overrunning the garrison town of Diabaly, about 100 miles (160 kilometres) north of Segou, the administrative capital of central Mali, said French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian.

The French Embassy in Bamako immediately ordered the evacuation of the roughly 60 French nationals in the Segou region, said a French citizen who insisted on anonymity out of fear for her safety.

France expanded its aerial bombing campaign, launching airstrikes for the first time in central Mali to combat the new threat. But the intense assault, including raids by gunship helicopters and Mirage fighter jets, failed to halt the advance of the rebels, who were only 250 miles (400 kilometres) from the capital, Bamako, in the far south.

The rebels "took Diabaly after fierce fighting and resistance from the Malian army, that couldn't hold them back," said Le Drian, the French defence minister.

Article shared with provisions of The Copyright Act continues at link.


----------



## cupper (14 Jan 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Turns out one C-17 is going, from the PM's website:
> 
> http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?category=3&featureId=6&pageId=49&id=5243



It's the least he could do. ;D


----------



## a_majoor (14 Jan 2013)

To really stabilize the situation will take lots of troops, and to roll back the gains of the Islamists will take both large amounts of resources and time. Sadly, I don't think *we* have the will to commit manpower and resources either at the level or the time frame needed to make real progress.


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## a_majoor (15 Jan 2013)

Senator Roméo Dallaire and Kyle Matthews make the case for intervention. Sadly, without the will to commit a lot of resources for a very long time, there is very little will to make the intervention (and without an actual army hitting the ground, any intervention will be very limited in effect and scope).

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/01/15/romeo-dallaire-and-kyle-matthews-the-price-of-inaction-in-mali/



> Roméo Dallaire and Kyle Matthews: The price of inaction in Mali
> 
> Roméo Dallaire and Kyle Matthews, National Post | Jan 15, 2013 12:01 AM ET | Last Updated: Jan 14, 2013 5:00 PM ET
> More from National Post
> ...


----------



## Journeyman (15 Jan 2013)

> Senator Roméo Dallaire and Kyle Matthews make the case for intervention.


Lots of wonderful, empty, hand-wringing words.

Matthews, as the _Senior Deputy _ Director of whatever the "Will to Intervene Project" is, is obligated to say these things; no actual knowledge is required.

But as a Senator and former-Brigade commander, Dallaire knows both what we could potentially contribute and the costs (political and military) that could entail.  I guess that's why the opinion piece is strong on bleeding-hearts, but completely bereft of details on _what_ Canada should provide.  

Without that extra journalistic step, the article is as meaningless as most claims that "_something_ must be done!"


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Jan 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> To really stabilize the situation will take lots of troops, and to roll back the gains of the Islamists will take both large amounts of resources and time ....


Well, France appears to be sending in more troops ....


> France is tripling the number of troops deployed to Mali to 2,500, part of the massive preparation for a land assault to dislodge the Islamist extremists occupying the West African country's north.
> 
> The increased total of French troops was confirmed in Paris Tuesday by a French Ministry of Defense official, who refused to give his name because he was not authorized to speak.
> 
> ...


.... so now let's see how long they're willing to stay (highlights mine):


> France will end its intervention in Mali only once stability has returned to the West African country, French President Francois Hollande said on Tuesday, raising the prospects of a costly, drawn-out operation against al Qaeda-linked rebels.
> 
> Paris has poured hundreds of soldiers into Mali and carried out air raids since Friday in the northern half of the country, which Western and regional states fear could become a base for attacks by Islamist militants in Africa and Europe.
> 
> ...


That may sound doable now to _someone_ in the French government, but watch and shoot ....


----------



## GAP (15 Jan 2013)

Was this not being initiated under a UN mandate.....what's the ROE's....they tend to be meek...


----------



## PanaEng (15 Jan 2013)

Shared according to law:
France will deploy 2,500 troops in Mali
800 French soldiers, including special forces, already in country
The Associated Press
Posted: Jan 15, 2013 4:59 AM ET


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/15/mali-bombing-french-diabaly.html



> Overnight, a regiment of 150 French soldiers drove overland from neighbouring Ivory Coast, bringing in a convoy of 40 armoured vehicles, including the ERC-90, a tank-like car, mounted with a 90-mm cannon.
> 
> Several thousand soldiers from the nations neighbouring Mali are also expected to begin arriving soon, and Nigeria said nearly 200 would be coming in the next 24 hours.



It's going to take a lot more than that. Some very optimistic pronouncements from Hollande: 





> During a stop in Abu Dhabi on Tuesday, Hollande told RFI radio that he was sure the French military operation would succeed.
> 
> "We are confident about the speed with which we will be able to stop the aggressors, the enemy, these terrorists. And with [the help] of the Africans that are being deployed, I think that in one more week we can restore Mali's territorial integrity,"


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## 57Chevy (15 Jan 2013)

With immediate logistical support from allied nations,
no one is expecting him to be pessimistic on actions in Mali.

It looks to me like he is moving things along rather quickly according to this article
shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

Hollande steps up security in France over military operations in Mali, Somalia
London 13 Jan
 ANI Link  
French President Francois Hollande has ordered to beef up security around public buildings and transport because of military operations in Africa.

He was responding to the risk of Islamist attack after French forces attacked militants in Mali and Somalia.

According to the BBC, a pilot was killed as air strikes were launched on an area of Malian rebels.

Hollande said that in Somalia, two French soldiers were ‘sacrificed’ in a raid to free a French hostage. The hostage was believed to have died.

France’s anti-terrorism alert system known as ‘Vigipirate’ is being reinforced immediately, with security boosted at public buildings and transport networks, particularly rail and air, the report said. 

Holland said that the ‘struggle against terrorism’ required all necessary precautions to be taken in France itself.

According to the report, his remarks came within hours of one of the Islamist groups targeted by French military action in Mali threatening reprisals against France.

An Ansar Dine spokesman told and international news agency there would be consequences for French citizens throughout the Muslim world, the report said.

French troops were deployed in Mali on Friday after the army lost control of a strategically important town to Islamists who were advancing south. 

A battle erupted with al-Shabab militants and, according to President Hollande, the operation failed ‘despite the sacrifice of two of our soldiers and probably the assassination of our hostage’, the report added. (ANI)


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## ProtectAndServe (15 Jan 2013)

I was watching RT news (Don't know of anyone knows that station here) and they mentioned how Canada may deploy troops.. That being said I've heard from many other news sources that Canada will NOT be deploying any troops.


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## Rifleman62 (15 Jan 2013)

I have removed my dumb comment.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Jan 2013)

Mali:  What the bad guys say (1)


> .... A spokesman for the MUJWA Islamist group, one of the main factions in the rebel alliance, promised French citizens would pay for Sunday's air strikes in their stronghold of Gao. Dozens of Islamist fighters were killed when rockets struck a fuel depot and a customs house being used as their headquarters.
> 
> "They should attack on the ground if they are men. We'll welcome them with open arms," Oumar Ould Hamaha told Europe 1 radio. "France has opened the gates of hell for all the French. She has fallen into a trap which is much more dangerous than Iraq, Afghanistan or Somalia." ....



What the bad guys say (2)


> “France has attacked islam. We will strike at the heart of France. In the name of Allah, we will strike at the heart of France.” Abou Dardar, a leader of the islamist group Mujao (Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa) told French news agency AFP.
> 
> Asked where the they would strike , Abou Dardar said “Everywhere. In Bamako, in Africa and in Europe.” ....



What the bad guys (in Afghanistan) say (links to screen capture of statement at Google Docs)


> As the struggle between the Mujahideen and the government of Mali has intensified more than ever and a foreign military intervention has also taken place therefore the Islamic Emirate, which has seen the results of foreign interventions and has a lot of experience in this regard, calls on the Malian people and all related and involved sides to utilize such a mechanism and process which restores peace and calm in the country on the basis of Islamic principles and solves the quandary without any foreign intervention.
> 
> When France began its withdrawal process from Afghanistan in recent times it seemed as the French government would likely expand its anti-war stance to other regions of the world however it broke off its commitment to peace by transgressing militarily on the soil of northern African nation of Mali. France has launched war against the Muslim nation of Mali without having any legal jurisdiction.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jan 2013)

> French troops have been fighting Mali's Islamist rebels in street battles in the town of Diabaly, Malian and French sources say.
> 
> In the first major ground operation in the conflict, French special forces were fighting alongside Malian troops.
> 
> ...


BBC, 16 Jan 13

Troops referred to in yellow above are reportedly with the French Foreign Legion's 1er Régiment Étranger de Cavalerie (1er REC)


----------



## tomahawk6 (16 Jan 2013)

French Marine Infantry and the Legion's Cav Regiment. They are going to need alot more help on the ground.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jan 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> French Marine Infantry and the Legion's Cav Regiment. They are going to need alot more help on the ground.


More help is reportedly inbound ....
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/1091/post-1201716.html#msg1201716
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/1091/post-1201641.html#msg1201641
.... so we'll have to see if that's enough with the ~3300 African troops being committed.


----------



## jollyjacktar (16 Jan 2013)

Good hunting to them all.


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## sean m (16 Jan 2013)

Hello,

Just as a notion, not as a question, but does anyone here think it would be wise for Canada to send (possibly) intelligence specialists to Mali to provide support for the coalition in that regard, and to give our government a better understanding of what is going on . Pierre Boisvert (former CSIS) on Power and Politics, on CBC, suggested that Canada could send in personnel who would leave a "light footprint". Does anyone here think that this would be wise for Canada to do or no? 

Thank you.

Sean M.

P.S. here is Ray Boisvert's interview

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/ID/2325978646/


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## Edward Campbell (16 Jan 2013)

Intervening in Mali is nothing more than squeezing a visible, annoying pimple. It does nothing - not a goddamn thing - about the deep, serious problems that afflict Africa. The French will go in, kill a few black folks, drive some of the various warring factions either underground or into Mauritania, Algeria, Niger, etc, declare victory and return home having accomplished SFA. When both Africa and the wider world finally agree that it is time to come to grips with Africa, as a continent, then we can discuss what, relatively minor, role the CF might play.


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## a_majoor (16 Jan 2013)

Walter Russell Mead with some bad news. For those of you who are light on history, the French and French Union had tens of thousands of troops in Indochina, and sent a total of 26,800 troops to Dien Bien Phu alone during that battle. Trying to drive out the Islamists in an area the size of France will require an army (not a metaphorical one, but a real army with hundreds of thousands of troops, supporting staff, auxilliaries etc.).

The fact that the French had logistical difficulties during a much smaller intervention in Libya isn't a good sign that the French or even the EU will be able to sustain an operation in Mali:

Instapundit has a few choice coments as well:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/01/15/mali-dien-bien-phu-all-over-again/



> *Mali: Dien Bien Phu All Over Again?*
> 
> The French are known for eating small portions, but in Mali they may have bitten off more than they can chew:
> 
> ...



And from instapundit:



> Remember when the press mocked Mitt Romney for bringing up Mali in a debate? Because, you know, they had no idea anything was brewing there. I keep saying that we have the worst political class in our history, and we do, but today’s press is the very worst part of the worst political class in our history.
> 
> Related: Belgians and Danes Join French-Led Mali Intervention With American Goodies.
> 
> UPDATE: Prof. Stephen Clark writes: “WRM’s invocation of Dien Bien Phu is amusing. More annoying however is the failure of the media to connect the Islamist takeover of northern Mali with the NATO-led overthrow of the Gaddafi. Mali is a knock-on consequence of a failed north-African policy. Just such consequences were the fear expressed by some with US interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those failed to materialize. Now that they have materialized as a consequence of Obama’s policies the grand-high poobahs and their courtiers are as silent as church mice.”


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## HB_Pencil (16 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Or is this France, seeing the US foreign policy contracting/moving east, deciding now's a good time to say, "look at us; we're a global power!!  Someone's got to respect us now!   Anyone?   Bueller?"
> 
> [/cynicism]



Its more France being France and working within their sphere of influence. France has never been shy to intervene in their former colonies. The only thing that can be said for it is that at least they their moral standards isn't nearly as bad in these actions as they once was.


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## tomahawk6 (17 Jan 2013)

Mali is not Indochina. I agree that more ground forces will be needed,as well as US air assets and perhaps ground forces. The US can help the French with logistics. I see Operation Serval as being quite winnable.


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## BrendenDias (17 Jan 2013)

Romeo Dallaire speaks truthful, wise words. He knows from experience, if we stand idle, more people will die..
He obviously does not want another genocide occurring, such as the very one he was caught in the middle of in Rwanda... 
A great point about Canada/French/Mali. Some Canadians can speak French, and some even a little French competence, and Canada could have been one of the leaders in this mission, however... our Prime Minister has other ideas...


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## Kat Stevens (17 Jan 2013)

The government of Canada has other ideas, not the PM.  Where do people get the idea that the PM just wakes up one morning and decides to send troops half way round the world, or not, in this case.


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## Maxadia (17 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The government of Canada has other ideas, not the PM.  Where do people get the idea that the PM just wakes up one morning and decides to send troops half way round the world, or not, in this case.



Gee, didn't the evil Mr. Harper personally send all our troops to the 'Stan?  :


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## dimsum (17 Jan 2013)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The government of Canada has other ideas, not the PM.  Where do people get the idea that the PM just wakes up one morning and decides to send troops half way round the world, or not, in this case.



[tangent]

The same place where the American public thinks their President can force anything he wants (Obamacare being one), rather than ass-kissing the House and Senate to hopefully get enough of a majority to pass the bill without it being changed into something 100% different via something akin to a crappy game of Broken Telephone.  

[/tangent]


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2013)

B.Dias said:
			
		

> Romeo Dallaire speaks truthful, wise words. He knows from experience, if we stand idle, more people will die..


Truthful? Wise?  Whether we stand idle or not, people are going to die. Nonetheless, he believes that we should do......._something_.  What we should do is crucial, yet neither Dallaire, Mathews,.....or you B.Dias.... have stepped-up to say: 
- what we should do; 
- why we should do it (as in, what effect our "something" would _actually_ accomplish); 
- and, even as an after-thought, what our "something" would cost, here in Canada.

So yes, like most 'cause de jour,' standing on the sidelines and demanding "something be done" is the easy part.  I've yet to see anyone take this extra step -- the hard bit -- the bit that acutely affects those who 'do' rather than those who 'say.'  Until that is fleshed out, I see these pronouncements as more disingenuous, than truthful or wise.

It's easy to be idealistic when you're not the one actually doing the "something";  for the "do'ers," a bit more detail is absolutely necessary before jumping onto that bandwagon.


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## a_majoor (17 Jan 2013)

Sorry T6, but I will have to side with Edward on this one; Mali is not "winable" (at least not with the resources and time anyone seems willing to commit), and whatever the French will achieve will be quite minimal compared to the scale and scope of what actually needs to be done.

I would look to the situation being inflamed across North Africa and Nigeria as a minimum, with Islamist groups dispersing from wherever the French have real power on the ground and resurfacing to spread mayhem across the entire region.


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## tomahawk6 (17 Jan 2013)

Which is why US SF have been training the Army's in the region. This particular terror group were armed from Ghadafi's weapons stock pile. This is an AQ affiliate and seem to be well trained. Historically African rebels dont fare well against the Legion and France has a numbers problem. Perhaps in the growing face of the jihadist threat to their former colonies the Legion might be expanded.


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jan 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Mali is not Indochina ....


True - but the Viet Cong didn't have international groups supporting it/helping apply pressure on the homeland via kidnappings and threats of attacks in the U.S. the same way AQ does.  



			
				tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Historically African rebels dont fare well against the Legion ....


You're right, but I think (and I stand to be corrected) this has usually been against a localized bad guy, as opposed to a local franchise of an international bad guy.



			
				tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I see Operation Serval as being quite winnable.


Only if the resources are there for the amount of time it takes to tame not only AQ in Africa, but affiliates willing to help it out by doing nasties elsewhere (think "whack a mole").  I wish I could be more optimistic....


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Jan 2013)

Meanwhile, CBC says France is asking for Canada's big honkin' plane to stay a bit longer....


> Canada's first C-17 transport flight into Mali today brought its initial load of French troops and supplies into the capital city, Bamako.
> 
> But as this logistical support begins to play a role in the French military's efforts to combat the al-Qaeda-linked insurgency in the troubled country, France's ambassador to Canada, Philippe Zeller, says French President François Hollande has asked Prime Minister Stephen Harper to extend its mission beyond one week.
> 
> The two leaders spoke by telephone yesterday. The readout provided from the prime minister's office about the call didn't indicate that a request for an extension of Canada's mission was part of the conversation, but the French ambassador told CBC News this morning that France would like to continue to use Canada's C-17 beyond the initial one-week period announced by Harper on Monday ....


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## a_majoor (17 Jan 2013)

I'm not trying to be (too) contentious here T6, and agree with your observation in principle.

The issues I see are the fact that France does not have the manpower or logistics to attack the problem in Mali on the scale and scope required, nor do France or most of the West seem to have the will power for the extended, resource intense deployment that would be needed for the win. Look at Afghanistan; if I were making policy I would have set the provisional end date to 2015, which would have allowed us to not only have a decade fighting the Taliban, developing local infrastructure and institutions, but also given the first cadre of millions of Afghan schoolchildren time to graduate; providing a nucleus for real social and cultural change to take place.

Looking about for a historic example, I remembered reading about the Banana Wars period in the 1900-1930's period. US forces routinely intervened in places like Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua and even Mexico. Wherever they went, they could make impressive short term gains (read Max Boot; The Savage Wars of Peace for a good summary), including what we now call development (roads, hospitals, postal service and even customs serivces were created by the USMC, for example). The Americans of the period evidently believed that American Exceptionalism could be assimilated by example (or maybe osmosis), since they left all these development items in good order for the locals as they withdrew. Culturally, the locals saw these more as as natural resources to exploit, and everything deteriorated from there.

So even SoF units deploying in Mali and whacking huge numbers of insurgents won't have much of a long term effect, and especially won't do much to eradicate the various causes that inflame Islamic radicalization in the region. I'm pretty sure that the GoC has made a similar calculation and done the cost/benefit analysis for Canada (hence the deployment of a single C-17 to assist), so regardless of what we may believe, the French are pretty much on their own for now.

Of course, French history in Indochina may be instructive in other ways. The commitment of logistical support for the French Union forces and a fear of the "Domino Effect" eventually drew large scale American involvement into the region. As for the sorts of difficulties the French faced in Indochina, read Bernard Fall Street Without Joy and Hell in a very small place


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2013)

> .....France is asking for Canada's big honkin' plane to stay a bit longer....


I guess the key factor is the availability of 3-star +  hotels.  Aircrew rest IS a Flight Safety issue!   :nod:


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I guess the key factor is the availability of 3-star +  hotels.  Aircrew rest IS a Flight Safety issue!   :nod:


I thought that was more related to height/"stature"....


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## The Bread Guy (17 Jan 2013)

From the EU Info-machine products (attached)....


> .... The EU training mission in Mali (EUTM Mali) is intended to help improve the military capacity of the Malian Armed Forces in order to allow, under civilian authority, the restoration of the country's territorial integrity. It represents an integral part of the EU's comprehensive approach to the situation in Mali and the Sahel.
> 
> EUTM Mali will provide military training as well as train and advise the Malian Armed Forces on command and control, logistics, human resources as well as on international humanitarian law, the protection of civilians and human rights. The mission will not be involved in combat operations.
> 
> The Council also appointed Brigadier General François Lecointre from France as EU mission commander. Besides, it estimated the common costs of the operation at EUR 12.3 million for the mandate of 15 months ....





> .... In line with the "EU Strategy for Development and Security in the Sahel", the EU's objective is to enable the Malian authorities to:
> a. Restore constitutional and democratic order in Mali through the implementation of a credible and consensual road map which foresees free, transparent and fair elections in 2013 and a framework for negotiations with armed groups rejecting terrorism;
> b. Re-establish the state's authority throughout the country and redeploy it effectively in a context of peace and reconciliation between communities while respecting the rule of law and human rights;
> c. Neutralize organised crime and terrorist threats.
> ...


Now let's see who's in, with how much and who's out.


----------



## GAP (17 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Truthful? Wise?  Whether we stand idle or not, people are going to die. Nonetheless, he believes that we should do......._something_.  What we should do is crucial, yet neither Dallaire, Mathews,.....or you B.Dias.... have stepped-up to say:
> - what we should do;
> - why we should do it (as in, what effect our "something" would _actually_ accomplish);
> - and, even as an after-thought, what our "something" would cost, here in Canada.
> ...



that's strange.....  :crickets:


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## cupper (17 Jan 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> [tangent]
> 
> The same place where the American public thinks their President can force anything he wants (Obamacare being one), rather than ass-kissing the House and Senate to hopefully get enough of a majority to pass the bill without it being changed into something 100% different via something akin to a crappy game of Broken Telephone.
> 
> [/tangent]



You're too young to be so cynical. Me on the other hand ... :nod:


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## Danjanou (17 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> It's easy to be idealistic when you're not the one actually doing the "something";  for the "do'ers," a bit more detail is absolutely necessary before jumping onto that bandwagon.




But JM he wants to personally help


> Always dreamed of becoming a soldier, and now is the time to act to make that a reality for the future.



Hmm after deciding to join, going through the recruiting process, completing the needed training to make him deployable I would think he should be ready to go to Mali just in time for the "mission accomplished victory parade" and/or "tea and medals on the objective."  :


----------



## Good2Golf (17 Jan 2013)

B.Dias said:
			
		

> Romeo Dallaire speaks truthful, wise words. He knows from experience, if we stand idle, more people will die...



So if he knows in his heart of hearts that he should have intervened when he saw the Belgian paratroopers tied up and sitting in the stress position under armed Rwandan army personnel in their compound in Kigali, why does he not now capitalize on his past experiences and suggest MATERIAL ACTION to be taken regarding the First Nations challenge?  All he has said is that we should take action...sure, I'll buy that...but WHAT action do you suggest Monsieur Dallaire?

Regards
G2G


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## Journeyman (17 Jan 2013)

GAP said:
			
		

> that's strange.....  :crickets:


Don't misunderstand -- I wasn't targetting B.Dias specifically. 

I haven't heard _anyone_ state what exactly Canada should provide, to what end, and at what cost.  So far, we can't seem to move beyond the sanctimonious hand-wringing phase.  

(which may as well be a scripted template for all of these 'crises'   :boring:  )


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## Danjanou (17 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> the sanctimonious hand-wringing phase.



You mean that's not one of the steps of Battle Proceedure now? 8)


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## BrendenDias (17 Jan 2013)

Hmm. Of course nobody has said what we should do... every option leads to criticism by everyone. 
1. Send ground troops= "Oh, sending soldiers to die are we?"
2. Don't send ground troops= "Why aren't we supporting our ally France and aiding Mali?"
3. Don't do much, but do something... kind of= "We aren't doing enough to help"

If Dallaire said we should do one thing, there will be people that criticize, and people that agree, no matter what.\

And yes, people will die either way, but perhaps helping more than what the government(corrected) is doing could *save* the lives of more people. 

Again, go ahead and correct me if something is not correct to you, but this all can go either way... Maybe to some people a 17 year old shouldn't be voicing their opinions, since some of you have actual experience with the CF, or anything related, but young insight is what the years to come will include of course.. sorry if my responds "aren't good enough," but I like to have a little conversation about military affairs on this site because basically nobody I know has an interest like I do.

Respectfully,


----------



## Journeyman (17 Jan 2013)

Again, I wasn't critiquing you specifically.  If you have opinions -- preferably informed by experience and/or reading widely -- then by all means, offer up suggestions.  Yes, they may get criticized.  If the responses are "STFU; you're only 17," then I imagine the Mods will step in  (that's why the site owner pays them all that extra 'Mod pay'    ).  If the criticism is _valid and equally informed_, then there should be improved understanding all around, and everyone benefits.

Personally, I haven't offered any options because, as stated, I don't think a CF deployment is justified in the numbers, and for the length of time, required to actually make a difference.


----------



## armyvern (17 Jan 2013)

B.Dias said:
			
		

> Hmm. Of course nobody has said what we should do... every option leads to criticism by everyone.
> 1. Send ground troops= "Oh, sending soldiers to die are we?"
> 2. Don't send ground troops= "Why aren't we supporting our ally France and aiding Mali?"
> 3. Don't do much, but do something... kind of= "We aren't doing enough to help"
> ...



Actually, at 17 your opinions really don't count for much _officially_ because you can't vote. But, I must tell you that it is very nice to see a 17 year old who is interested in what his nation is (or isn't as the case may be) up to and whom is educating himself on things that should be important to him when it comes time that he *can* vote.  I'd much prefer to see a nation of affairs-educated voters than a nation of ill-informed nitwits casting votes based upon nothing but the party flag.

I say - good on you.


----------



## cupper (17 Jan 2013)

B.Dias said:
			
		

> Maybe to some people a 17 year old shouldn't be voicing their opinions, since some of you have actual experience with the CF, or anything related, but young insight is what the years to come will include of course





			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Actually, at 17 your opinions really don't count for much _officially_ because you can't vote. But, I must tell you that it is very nice to see a 17 year old who is interested in what his nation is (or isn't as the case may be) up to and whom is educating himself on things that should be important to him when it comes time that he *can* vote.  I'd much prefer to see a nation of affairs-educated voters than a nation of ill-informed nitwits casting votes based upon nothing but the party flag.
> 
> I say - good on you.



And just to add on to what Vern said, don't be surprised if your opinions that you hold now change as you gain life experiences.


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## cupper (17 Jan 2013)

Heard a good discussion as to why a large scale intervention in Mali is not the best idea.

One of the parties opined that due to the nature of AQ, it would end up being a game of whack-a-mole across Northern Africa. As one group is defeated in one country or region, another will pop up and the games start all over again.


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## tomahawk6 (17 Jan 2013)

I am a bit unhappy with my government's position on Mali. France has asked for US support,such as Predator/Reaper UAV's and instead got the amazing excuse from State "we dont support dictators" [Captain Sanogo]. He opposed French intervention because it might jeopardize his own position. With thousands of French troops in country or on the way Sanogo may be looking for an exit strategy. How about killing AQ who are running amok in North Africa ? That would be a bigger priority than who is running Mali this month.

The French are deploying 20 VBCI's and a battery of the Caesar SP 155mm guns.


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## BrendenDias (18 Jan 2013)

I didn't think you were targeting me, what you said is true, yes..



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Actually, at 17 your opinions really don't count for much _officially_ because you can't vote. But, I must tell you that it is very nice to see a 17 year old who is interested in what his nation is (or isn't as the case may be) up to and whom is educating himself on things that should be important to him when it comes time that he *can* vote.  I'd much prefer to see a nation of affairs-educated voters than a nation of ill-informed nitwits casting votes based upon nothing but the party flag.
> 
> I say - good on you.





			
				cupper said:
			
		

> And just to add on to what Vern said, don't be surprised if your opinions that you hold now change as you gain life experiences.



I cannot vote, however it does not mean I don't want to be aware of the Canadian situations in regards to military and government, exactly, thank you. Well written. My history teacher always rambles about how it's up to the upcoming generation for the future, which my age and around my age.. He ends up halting his discussion because most of the people in my classes usually take it as a joke... it really pains me to see so many people not really care about what they will be involved in soon.. however, what can you do eh? You're interested, others are not..
Back to Mali...
The Whack-a-mole statement would be realistic, I could see it happening, really.. there are so many options possible that it would be a tough decision in regards to what to do.


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## Edward Campbell (18 Jan 2013)

I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry ...  :dunno:

That _al Qaeda_ is alive and operating in North Africa is not in dispute; that it matters to anyone outside of North Africa is debatable.

My initial reaction is that any intervention by any of the Western powers - and that includes our C-17 - is both:

1. A waste of time and effort; and

2. Very likely counter productive because, it seems to me, we you Western soldiers are the best recruiting tools _al Qaeda_ has - it is, otherwise, pretty much a spent force, I think.

I believe that clandestine operations aimed at killing selected leaders and emptying bank accounts is a useful way to proceed. But military operations in Africa should be, for the time being, carried out (however ineptly) by Africans under African leadership - they, the Africans, will not accomplish anything but neither will the French - no matter how good the Foreign Legion might be at killing people - nor the Americans. When, not if, Africa decides that it needs to address its many and deep problems there will be political and military roles aplenty for the West and for the East,* too.

-----
* The _new_ East: mainly China, India, Japan, Korea and Malaysia, as opposed to the _old_ Eastern Bloc which was led by Russia, now a failing state in its own right.


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## a_majoor (19 Jan 2013)

More pro intervention talk, this time from Lawrence Solomon, who is usually a thoughtful commentator. While grabbing land, population and resources is an important attribute in military strategy, I have doubts that this will be convertable into capital, influence and military power; mostly because the Islamists are pretty inept when it comes to actually running things (see Egypt), so in this regard I agree with Edward. I also see this article is another call to action, without specifying what we should actually do or how to do it (playing "whack a mole" has diminishing returns, unless you intend to impose a Roman peace on the entire region).

Never the less, we will continue to hear arguments from well meaning people for intervention, so we need to be familiar with them:

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2013/01/18/lawrence-solomon-needed-war-against-jihadists-needed/



> *Lawrence Solomon — Needed: war against jihadists*
> 
> Lawrence Solomon | Jan 18, 2013 8:30 PM ET | Last Updated: Jan 18, 2013 8:50 PM ET
> More from Lawrence Solomon
> ...



As an incidental, this isn't WWIII, but rather WW VI. Start counting with the Seven Years War


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## tomahawk6 (19 Jan 2013)

I understand your reticence to get involved in Africa. After all Canada lacks national interest in the area. France has long been active in its former colonies and I applaud their intervention and so should you.


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## jollyjacktar (19 Jan 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I understand your reticence to get involved in Africa. After all Canada lacks national interest in the area. France has long been active in its former colonies and I applaud their intervention and so should you.



As much as I love the thought of all the Jihadiists that will die as part of France's coming, I too like many fear it will be for naught.  There was an interview I listened to on CBC Radio the other night with a gentleman in Mali.  He is of the opinion that France will not be able to stem the tide and could not even in 50 years of effort.  He fears it is too late and had gained too much momentum with the youth that are being attracted to the cause.  As I said previously, good hunting to France and the Legion, I really mean it too.

If we could be assured of whacking and stacking all of the bastards and stamping out AQIM etc, then sure get in on the party.  But this is a tar baby waiting and I believe France has just taken their first fatal swing at it, and will suffer the same fate as the fable.  We in the West have spent too much blood and treasure in the sandbox already for SFA.  It's been like thrashing our hand in a bucket of water, looks impressive but just gets you wet and has no lasting concrete effect on it's contents.


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## tomahawk6 (19 Jan 2013)

> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.



Taking out Gaddafi may have been a feel good exercise,but the unintended consequence is the hostage crisis in Algeria. North Africa's oil/gas resources are critical to Europe and are a vulnerability.


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## Rifleman62 (19 Jan 2013)

> North Africa's oil/gas resources are critical to Europe and are a vulnerability.



And not to the US and Canada.


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## tomahawk6 (19 Jan 2013)

Each nation has its own interests. The US has an interest in the area and Canada doesn't. I get it and I don't have an issue with it. In North Africa US interest and that of Europe coincide. The US is content to let the French take the lead and hopefully we will provide some meaningful behind the scenes help.


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## Retired AF Guy (19 Jan 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Each nation has its own interests. The US has an interest in the area and Canada doesn't.



Not true.  Canada-Mali relations are very strong. Mali is a major recipient of Canadian aid, including I believe, just recently some military aid. Canadian mining companies also have a presence in Mali. Granted, in the big scheme of things, its not much, a couple of hundred million here and there, but if we are willing to spend all that money over the last couple of decades, then we should be ready to give Mali help when it needs it the most.

 My :2c: worth.


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## tomahawk6 (19 Jan 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Not true.  Canada-Mali relations are very strong. Mali is a major recipient of Canadian aid, including I believe, just recently some military aid. Canadian mining companies also have a presence in Mali. Granted, in the big scheme of things, its not much, a couple of hundred million here and there, but if we are willing to spend all that money over the last couple of decades, then we should be ready to give Mali help when it needs it the most.
> 
> My :2c: worth.



Well I stand corrected and pleased to be. Very nice contribution Retired Air Force Guy.


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## ProtectAndServe (19 Jan 2013)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Not true.  Canada-Mali relations are very strong. Mali is a major recipient of Canadian aid, including I believe, just recently some military aid. Canadian mining companies also have a presence in Mali. Granted, in the big scheme of things, its not much, a couple of hundred million here and there, but if we are willing to spend all that money over the last couple of decades, then we should be ready to give Mali help when it needs it the most.
> 
> My :2c: worth.



You're 2cents is fact, read a little something about it just recently.

What is Canada's role?
Canada has committed to providing logistical support to French forces in Mali. Prime Minister Stephen Harper said on Jan. 14 that in response to a request for assistance from France, Canada will send one Royal Canadian Air Force C-17 cargo plane to Mali, which will remain in operation there for about one week, helping to transport equipment and supplies to the Malian capital, Bamako.

Canada has strong ties to Mali, which is one of the biggest recipients of Canadian foreign aid, having received more than $110 million in 2010-11. Canadian troops and special forces have helped train Mali's military.

When explaining Canada's decision to get involved in the conflict, Harper said in a statement:

"The establishment of a terrorist region in the middle of Africa is of grave concern to the broader international community, including Canada and our close allies."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/01/14/f-mali-faq.html <---


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## a_majoor (20 Jan 2013)

Once again, T6, without trying to be too contentious, the situation in Mali is one where we can actually afford to sit out (even if Mali is totally overrun by Islamists, what will they be able to do with it in the end? See Egypt for an example of how the hard line Islamists are taking a State with lots of potential and essentially zeroing it out). OTOH, if we want to go in and actually do something, we need to go in with resources and commitment on a scale and scope that is far beyond what Canada can actually achieve, much less has the willpower to sustain.

So I wish our brothers in the Legion: Godspeed, and safe journey home; but expect only short term remediation of the situation at best.


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## tomahawk6 (20 Jan 2013)

Lets look at a map. The fall of Mali to the jihadists would allow them to threaten Morocco,Algeria and the smaller countries to the south. Niger is the global No. 4 uranium producer. Guinea and Mauritania have iron, while Burkina Faso is a major cotton supplier.


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## GR66 (20 Jan 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Once again, T6, without trying to be too contentious, the situation in Mali is one where we can actually afford to sit out (even if Mali is totally overrun by Islamists, what will they be able to do with it in the end? See Egypt for an example of how the hard line Islamists are taking a State with lots of potential and essentially zeroing it out). OTOH, if we want to go in and actually do something, we need to go in with resources and commitment on a scale and scope that is far beyond what Canada can actually achieve, much less has the willpower to sustain.
> 
> So I wish our brothers in the Legion: Godspeed, and safe journey home; but expect only short term remediation of the situation at best.



I guess I'm with Thucydides on this one.  To take it a step further just as Canada doesn't have the resources and commitment to resolve the situation in Mali, I question whether the collective West has the resources and commitment to take on the jihadis writ large.  What were really looking at here is a war against a Culture spread right across the Muslim world.   Maybe containment does have some merit as a strategy in this case.  Take the West out of the equation in the conflict perhaps and let this become the internal conflict it really is.


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## tomahawk6 (20 Jan 2013)

Doing nothing in the face of evil is a policy that we all have seen through history.Failing to act usually requires more blood and treasure at some point in the future. On the one hand we have AQ and on the other we have their brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood already running a number of North African countries.If the MB has their way we will see a modern Caliphate across North Africa and Palestine. Does that pose a threat to the west ? How about a Caliphate with nuclear weapons ? How about a Caliphate that in effect IS OPEC [If they can take SA and the Gulf States] ?


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## Edward Campbell (20 Jan 2013)

Remember John Foster Dulles (and his brother Allen Dulles) and the _domino theory_?







  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



John Foster Dulles                                Allen Dulles
Former Secretary of State                     Former Director of the CIA

President Harry Truman actually proposed the theory in 1947 or 48 to justify intervening in Greece but _containment_ became America's _grand strategy_ during Truman's administration and remained so throughout the Eisenhower years, too. John F Kennedy, however, embraced Dulles' ideals and so did most subsequent presidents of both Democratic and Republican persuasions. 

If, and it is certainly a real possibility, a new, hostile _caliphate_ emerges then it can be dealt with as a conventional enemy - bloodily and brutally and forced into abject, unconditional surrender. (And I believe we will have China and India as allies in that.) For now I believe in helping to ferment internecine wars (which is what I think this is) between _radical_ and _conservative_ regimes. I believe we, the US led West, have NO friends, not even one, amongst the African/Arab and Asian Muslim states - and that includes the Gulf emirates. It is better, in my view, to let them fight it out with ever increasing ferocity for a generation or so - the more bloodshed the merrier, from our perspective.


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## Edward Campbell (20 Jan 2013)

Here is a link to CTV News and to Mr. Fowler and LGen (ret'd) Leslie talking about Mali.


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## a_majoor (20 Jan 2013)

:goodpost:

The real thing to keep in mind, T6, is that the Islamists really have no "culture" of innovation, managment or development. True, they might be sitting on a fortune of natural resources, and have millions or even hundreds of millions of people under their control, but what will they do with all that potential? We have seen what they tend to do with that potential since the religion of Islam overran the Middle East, destroyed the Bryzantine Empire and occupied Spain. Even with access to all that manpower and resources, it was Saladin who needed to worry about Crusaders sailing from England and France, not Richard the Lion Heart preparing for Scaracens to sail up the Thames. The Ottoman Empire was vastly larger and had direct access to more resources than the various Italian City States and other European nations, yet a single City State; the _Serenìsima Repùblica Vèneta_ was able to stay competative for centuries (and significantly was finally brought down by exhausting wars on Terra Firma with other Italian City States, until finally it was extinguished as an independent nation by Napoleon).

So yes, it will be exceedingly unpleasant for the people under occupation, and yes, there is a large potential for them to carry out small and large scale raids to vex us and test our patience (until the West, the Chinese and the Indians, and the Russians too, have had enough), but this isn't an existential threat on the scale of National Socialism or the Soviet Union. There are plenty of internal divisions that we can quite cleaverly exploit to keep their attentions turned inwards while we man the barracades around the perimeter.


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## 57Chevy (20 Jan 2013)

Canada evacuates staff from Mali embassy, urges Canadians to get out
 The Canadian Press  20 Jan

OTTAWA - The federal government has evacuated most of its staff and their families from the embassy in Mali, and is urging any Canadians still in the country to get out now.

The Department of Foreign Affairs says all non-essential staff and all 29 dependents of the workers and diplomats there have been relocated from the mission in the capital of Bamako.
The situation in Mali has been volatile for nearly a year, with Islamist radicals taking over northern parts of the country following a coup.

Two thousand French troops are now stationed in the country, trying to help the government there dislodge the insurgents.
Foreign Affairs warns that it now has a skeleton staff in Bamako, with limited ability to help any Canadians who have stubbornly remained in the country.
The department says in addition to the political instability and military clashes, there is a threat of terrorism, banditry and kidnapping in the northern region.
Canada has sent a heavy-life plane to help the French military with their operation in Mali.


                                           Article is shared with provisions of The Copyright Act

a heavy-life plane ?   Good one  :nod:


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## Retired AF Guy (20 Jan 2013)

French news is reporting that France's Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius is saying that Russia has offered to transport French troops and supplies to Mali and that *Canada was to help to bring African troops to the country*.

 Article Link


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## tomahawk6 (21 Jan 2013)

The  town of Diabaly will fall within hours according to the French Defense Minister. Progress.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Jan 2013)

How The French Air War In Mali Really Went Down

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-french-air-war-in-mali-david-cenciotti-the-aviationist--2013-1?nr_email_referer=1&utm_source=Triggermail&utm_medium=email&utm_content=emailshare

David Cenciotti, The Aviationist|Jan. 20, 2013, 7:30 AM|11,200|12

Launched on Jan. 11, 2013, at the request of the Malian authorities and the United Nations to help the local army stop the advance of rebel groups towards southern Mali, the French military campaign in West Africa, dubbed “Operation Serval” kicked off with a raid performed by attack helicopters to stop the progression of a column of jihadist elements enroute to Konna, near Mopti in the center of the country.

According to the French MoD, that on Jan. 12 released the first official information about the French activities in Africa, this first action was led by Gazelle helicopters with the 4ème Régiment d’Hélicoptères des Forces spéciales (RHFS), armed with HOT missiles and 20 mm caliber guns and allowed the destruction of four vehicles and led to the withdrawal of the column.

During the raid, one of the choppers was hit and a French pilot was wounded by small arms fire and died at a local hospital.

However, the air campaign to support the Malian army did not only involve light attack choppers.

On the night between January 11 and 12, four Mirage 2000D jets of the Epervier group, conducted air strikes in the north of the country. The attack planes took off from N’Djamena, in Chad, and were supported by two tankers C135.

Two Mirage F1 CRs, six Mirage 2000Ds, three C135 tankers, one C130 and one C160 Transall were deployed to N’Djamena. Rafale multirole fighters were immediately put on heightened alert status and readied for deployment while Tigre attack helicopters were dispatched to Ouagadougou, in Burkina Faso.

About  200 soldiers belonging to the ground component of the Epervier were transferred to the Malian capital, Bamako, by means of C-130 Hercules and C-160 Transall airlifters.

Jan. 13 saw the first involvement of the Rafale combat planes in the French air campaign in Mali.

Four “omnirole” jets from Saint Dizier airbase, took off from their base and, supported by two C-135FR tankers, attacked rebel’s training camps, infrastructure, and logistic deposits before recovering to N’Djamena airbase, in Chad.

Although it was later denied, the aircraft crossed the Algerian airspace on their way to Mali thanks to an agreement with Algeria, that has authorized unlimited access to fly over its territory to the French government.

The Rafales carried three fuel tanks, six GBU-49 5(00-lb Enhanced Paveway II GPS/INS-equipped GBU-12/B Laser Guided Bomb variants) or six AASM (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire – Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon) along with the Damocles pod.

According to the Rafale News blog, this was the first time that the Rafale used the dual mode (laser/GPS) GBU-49 guided bomb during a war mission as the integration of this kind of weapon was only recently completed.

Based on the video released by the French MoD after the raid and showing the four jets landing in Chad at the end of their strike mission, 21 weapons were dropped during the attack.

After a pretty intense start, the war against rebels in Mali turned, at least momentarily, into a low intensity air campaign.

On Jan. 14, just 8 missions against about 12 targets mainly located around Diabali were flown by the French combat aircraft supported by C135FR tankers. These included reconnaissance missions by Mirage F1CR that had relocated from N’Djamena, Chad, to Bamako, in Mali.

After releasing 21 PGMs (Precision Guided Munitions) out of 24 carried (6 for each plane) on the first long range raid launched directly from France, the four Rafale jets of the EC 1/7 “Provence” and 2/30 “Normandie-Niémen” deployed to N’Djamena carried only two or three bombs on the subsequent missions: a sign that, in spite of a “well-armed, well-trained and experienced” enemy, the amount of available targets on the ground did not require the aircraft to fly with a full load of six GBU-12/49 or AASMs.

Still, the buildup continues with more countries already contributing with support forces, or about to. Among them, the U.K., that has made available two C-17 airlifters (and maybe drones in the future), Denmark that sent transport aircraft, Canada that has provided one C-17, Belgium that is about to dispatch one C-130. Togo, Benin, Burkina Faso, Niger, Nigeria, Mauritania and Senegal that will send some hundreds military.

Since Jan. 15, the information officially released by the French MoD has become scarce with less details and figures. It looks like reporters from all around the world either embedded with Paris Special Forces or simply stationed around the main bases in West Africa were denied the possibility to provide much detail about the ongoing Operation Serval for OPSEC issues. Therefore, the only way to get a glimpse of what is going on in the Mali Air War is almost exclusively through the images and footage made available by the French Air Force and Army on social media.

As of Jan. 16 the unconfirmed Order of Battle of the French forces in Mali was made of:
4x Rafale, 2x C-135FR, 1x A310, 1x C130, 3x C-160 Transal, 3x Mirage 2000D, 1x CN235 at N’Djamena, Chad.
2x Mirage F1CR, 8x Gazelle, 3x Mirage 2000D, 4x Super Puma at Bamako, Mali
2x Harfang drones at Niamey, Niger.
Some Atlantique II MPA (Maritime Patrol Aircraft) at Dakar, Senegal, performing ISR.

As of Jan. 18, the French contingent has flown 110 sorties over Mali, including 70 strike sorties. Nigeria Air Force has offered four combat planes to support the operation.

According to a U.S. official who spoke on condition of anonymity to the AFP on Jan. 12, the Pentagon would be evaluating the possible contribution to the French air campaign in Mali.

Intelligence gathering platforms, surveillance drones, aerial refueling tankers: these are the support options considered by Washington.

Even if it's still unclear whether France or Mali have officially requested U.S. help, what is certain is that the U.S. has never ceased to pinpoint rebel positions and monitor their movements in the area.

In the wake of the attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi that cost the life of the U.S. Ambassador to Libya Chris Stevens on Sept. 11, 2011, the U.S. amassed Special Operations planes and helicopters in the Mediterranean area, and intensified ISR (Intelligence Surveillance Reconnaissance) activities in North and Central Africa from Sigonella, Sicily, Rota, Spain, and Souda Bay, Crete.

Whilst armed Predators followed insurgents in Cyrenaica, eastern Libya, Global Hawks flew high-altitude, long-range missions from the Mediterranean Sea, to Diego Garcia and back. Some of such missions went (and still go) well inside Africa, and also in Northern Mali controlled by three Islamist armed groups, including Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM).

However, not only unmanned platforms have been operating in the region.

Whereas EP-3Es conducted SIGINT (Signal Intelligence) missions from their standard bases in the Mediterranean area, several special “non-standard aviation assets” are based on a network of scarcely known airports across Africa: Uganda, South Sudan, Ethiopia, Djibouti and, above all, Burkina Faso, neighboring Mali.

Some U-28As are reportedly based at Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso capital.

From there, these aircraft (a military version of the civil PC-12 purchased at a unit price of 3.5 million USD from the Swiss company Pilatus) have been flying surveillance missions in the region, pursuing rebels pick ups in the desert and possibly eavesdropping suspect radio communications.

Other special operations planes (namely, some M-28 Skytrucks) that are used to carry special operators to places with unprepared landing strips and capable of performing special forces insertions and extractions in missions unsuitable for larger special ops aircraft (as the C-130 or the C-17), were spotted transiting through the U.K. on their way to a Middle East or African airport last year.

In order to keep a “low profile” and appear similar to general aviation aircraft during their clandestine missions, most of these special planes flying in Africa are painted in light gray or in white, as civilian planes, and sometimes they even carry civilian registrations.

Anyway, regardless what the official sources say, the U.S. is not evaluating whether to send reconnaissance planes or drones over Mali to collect intel data that could be useful for the French Air Force air strikes: Such manned and unmanned aircraft have been operating and spying over the West Africa country for months.

Therefore, since Paris is probably already exploiting intel provided by Washington, what it needs the most from the U.S. is a bunch of aerial refuelers and cargo planes to sustain the air campaign.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-french-air-war-in-mali-david-cenciotti-the-aviationist--2013-1#ixzz2Ibdel0Kv


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## PanaEng (21 Jan 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Once again, T6, without trying to be too contentious, the situation in Mali is one where we can actually afford to sit out (even if Mali is totally overrun by Islamists, what will they be able to do with it in the end? See Egypt for an example of how the hard line Islamists are taking a State with lots of potential and essentially zeroing it out). OTOH, if we want to go in and actually do something, we need to go in with resources and commitment on a scale and scope that is far beyond what Canada can actually achieve, much less has the willpower to sustain.
> 
> So I wish our brothers in the Legion: Godspeed, and safe journey home; but expect only short term remediation of the situation at best.


Unfortunately, the same was said of Afghanistan in the mid 1990's (as a more recent example compared to Japan and Germany in the 30's - sorry, no ref at this time but Chamberlain rings a bell - sure, different situations but...) 

cheers,
Frank


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## 57Chevy (21 Jan 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The  town of Diabaly will fall within hours according to the French Defense Minister. Progress.



                                              Article shared with provisions of The Copyright Act
French, Malian Troops Retake Rebel-Controlled Town
 Voice of America News 
21 Jan
French and Malian troops have retaken the town of Diabaly in central Mali from Islamist militants.

A witness in Diabaly told VOA the town was retaken Monday, a week after Islamist fighters seized control.  Reports from the area say armored vehicles carrying French and Malian soldiers entered the town with no resistance, after days of French airstrikes.

Residents say Islamists either fled the town or are attempting to blend in with the local population.

French forces said they were searching for landmines or explosive devices.

article continues...


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jan 2013)

> The Canadian government will extend the tour of the heavy-lift transport plane shuttling equipment from France to Mali for a military mission.
> 
> Initially, Prime Minister Stephen Harper offered the massive C-17 plane for a one-week mission. But France has asked Canada and other nations to provide more air-transport help, including assistance to carry a West African force of 3,300 into Mali.
> 
> Now Mr. Harper’s government is set to approve an extension, to be announced later this week ....


_Globe & Mail_, 22 Jan 13



> As the lone Canadian C-17 aircraft continues its week-long mission in Mali, NDP Foreign Affairs Critic Paul Dewar called for an extension of the Canadian mission in Mali Monday .... With only days left for the mission, Dewar told iPolitics Monday that Canada needs to stay engaged in Mali. However, he said that if Canada is to extend the mission, there must be more parliamentary involvement to debate how a longer mission would unfold ....


ipolitics.ca, 22 Jan 13


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## jeffb (22 Jan 2013)

So wait, now the NDP is calling for military intervention while the Conservatives are hesitant? Can someone explain that one to me? I'm pretty sure if we put a BG in Mali on Friday, come Monday the same NDP would be screaming to high heaven about warmongering Harper or some other such crap.


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## Edward Campbell (22 Jan 2013)

jeffb said:
			
		

> So wait, now the NDP is calling for military intervention while the Conservatives are hesitant? Can someone explain that one to me? I'm pretty sure if we put a BG in Mali on Friday, come Monday the same NDP would be screaming to high heaven about warmongering Harper or some other such crap.




Actually, the politics aren't bad:

1. The NDP is calling for rich, smug Canada to provide _humanitarian_ military aid to poor, embattled black folks; but

2. If a Conservative government gets ensnared in the African briar patch then the _Dippers_ can castigate them for intervening with big, bad soldiers ~ soldiers with guns and the Liberals might say.

A lot of Canadians are still enamoured with this sort of thing:






But they cannot fathom this:






 and, therefore, they don't like it.


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## The Bread Guy (22 Jan 2013)

.... of the fracas:


> For the past year, Mali has been mired in overlapping security, political, and humanitarian crises.  Islamist extremist groups expanded their presence in the country’s vast, Saharan north following a March 2012 coup d’état that overthrew Mali’s democratically elected government and led the military chain of command to collapse. The insurgents include Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM), a U.S.-designated Foreign Terrorist Organization, along with at least two loosely allied groups. In the capital, Bamako, located in the south, the interim government formed in the wake of the coup has suffered from internal divisions and military interference, and must contend with an economic recession and revenue shortages. Insecurity in northern Mali has displaced over 350,000 people and exacerbated regional food insecurity and poor humanitarian conditions.
> 
> On January 11, 2013, France launched military operations against insurgent targets in northern Mali, following a request from the Malian government for help in repelling insurgent advances toward the south. French operations mark a sudden and major shift in international responses to the situation in Mali. Previously, international efforts had focused on a French-backed proposal
> for a West African-led military intervention, negotiations with some armed groups in the north, and prospects for elections aimed at a more legitimate, effective government in Bamako. The planned regional intervention, termed the African-led International Support Mission in Mali (AFISMA), was authorized by the U.N. Security Council in December 2012. However, AFISMA was widely seen as requiring many months to prepare. During the planning for AFISMA, serious questions have also been raised concerning Malian and regional troops’ military capacity and will, as well as the potential cost and humanitarian consequences of regional deployments.
> ...


Full paper (21 page PDF) downloadable (courtest of the Federation of American Scientists) here.


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Jan 2013)

> The federal government is still considering how to respond to requests for an extension of Canada's commitment to support the French-led military operation in Mali as the one-week tour of a C-17 transport plane in the western African country nears its end.
> 
> "No further decisions have been finalized," Foreign Affairs Department spokesman Rick Roth told CBC News on Tuesday.
> 
> ...


CBC.ca, 22 Jan 13


----------



## cupper (22 Jan 2013)

jeffb said:
			
		

> So wait, now the NDP is calling for military intervention while the Conservatives are hesitant? Can someone explain that one to me? I'm pretty sure if we put a BG in Mali on Friday, come Monday the same NDP would be screaming to high heaven about warmongering Harper or some other such crap.



Based on the outdoor temperature, it is a result of Hell freezing over.


----------



## Kilo_302 (22 Jan 2013)

Canada's contribution checks off a couple boxes for the Conservatives: Our Allies see us doing something, and I suspect that when Canadians see strategic lift they think humanitarian aid versus transporting military equipment, so it's also not overtly "military" on the domestic side. Outside of a larger training role, this is probably the extent of what we will do.  It's now appearing that it might be a much longer engagement than initially thought, and it's doubtful Harper will risk another unpopular combat mission. The problem is that most of the European nations that Canada is comfortable taking cues from also just ended combat missions in Afghanistan, and are (with the exception of France of course) hesitant to commit and take the political hit at home. Even the US is shying away from a deployment of combat troops (though I would think it's likely US SF are on the ground), so until the US and maybe a couple European nations send troops, Canada won't do anything.


----------



## Danjanou (22 Jan 2013)

apparently from this video that C-17 was full of surplus 1980's molitia rounds 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NBUiA3Tjs


----------



## MarkOttawa (22 Jan 2013)

Kilo_302:

Quite, see: (there's some Cancon):

"Franco-German Relations – and Mali"
http://cdfai3ds.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/mark-collins-franco-german-relations-and-mali/

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## DirtyDog (22 Jan 2013)

Kilo_302 said:
			
		

> It's now appearing that it might be a much longer engagement than initially thought...


You mean to say unseating an insurgency is not quick, clean business?  Who could have ever forsaw this?


----------



## Kilo_302 (23 Jan 2013)

I should clarify, media outlets are now reporting that it will probably be a longer mission.


----------



## Edward Campbell (23 Jan 2013)

Without further comment:






Source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/welcome-to-quaqmirestan/article6790889/?from=7637939
_Gable_ in the _Globe and Mail_


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Without further comment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good catch - there's a t-shirt right there.


----------



## tomahawk6 (23 Jan 2013)

A bit overstated. Op Serval is going quite well. Its not a quigmire more like a graveyard for the jihadists.


----------



## JRH93 (23 Jan 2013)

Can I ask what Canadas contribution to mali is?


----------



## tomahawk6 (23 Jan 2013)

Evidently a CC-17. Air transport is in short supply so its an important contribution.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadian-c-17-completes-first-cargo-drop-to-mali-in-support-of-france/article7464333/?cmpid=rss1


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Jan 2013)

JRH93 said:
			
		

> Can I ask what Canadas contribution to mali is?


9 pages full of the latest on that just before your post (moved to the correct thread here)


----------



## JRH93 (23 Jan 2013)

thanks tomahawk, suppose any assistance is better then no assistance


----------



## tomahawk6 (23 Jan 2013)

Funny how we initially talked about Mali being a wasted effort or possibly a quagmire. I saw the operation as having the potential for success. Now Canada and the US are providing support to the French and the French and Mali forces have the jihadists on the run. ;D


----------



## Journeyman (23 Jan 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> ...... the French and Mali forces have the jihadists on the run. ;D





			
				tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> A bit overstated. Op Serval is going quite well. Its not a quigmire more like a graveyard for the jihadists.


I believe you have it partially correct -- "a bit overstated."  

You _may_ wish to hold off on your victory declaration for a little while longer...the jihadists also get a say.


----------



## cupper (23 Jan 2013)

As long as the situation in Libya is unsettled, the jihadies will always have a place to retreat to and regroup.

This is not going to be settled quickly.


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Jan 2013)

The latest here from the "a journalist is NEVER off duty" file....


> Photographs of a French soldier apparently mimicking a character from the popular and violent video game Call of Duty are causing a stir around the world.
> 
> In the photos, the unidentified soldier can be seen wearing a skeleton mask and a bandana, making him look eerily similar to the popular character Ghost from Call of Duty.
> 
> ...







Photo credit:  ISSOUF SANOGO/AFP/Getty Images




Photo credit:  ISSOUF SANOGO/AFP


----------



## kevincanada (23 Jan 2013)

The PM was just asked this live while talking about jobs in Ontario.  He gave a fairly long answer, but in short.  No change to the present commitment.


----------



## Jed (23 Jan 2013)

That will help sales for more 'Shooter games'


----------



## The Bread Guy (23 Jan 2013)

kevincanada said:
			
		

> The PM was just asked this live while talking about jobs in Ontario.  He gave a fairly long answer, but in short.  No change to the present commitment.


A bit of "Twitter triangulation" from different reporters writing about the same comments....

Sun Media:  "@pmharper says gov't is looking at "whether & how" to extend help to FR in mission to fight Islamists in Mali. No specifics about C-17."
_Toronto Star_:  "PM (Harper) says gov't "considering" future participation in military mission in Mali. Says he is talking to oppostion ldrs ...."
CBC.ca:  "... the PM is indeed consulting opposition parties on how to proceed in Mali re: further "technical support." ..."
The Canadian Press:  "PM (Harper) looking for a broad national consensus on what the next steps might be when it comes to the unfolding crisis in Mali ...."


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Jan 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> apparently from this video that C-17 was full of surplus 1980's molitia rounds
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NBUiA3Tjs



LOL, literally.


----------



## medicineman (23 Jan 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> apparently from this video that C-17 was full of surplus 1980's molitia rounds
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NBUiA3Tjs



So basically empty magazines then?

MM


----------



## PanaEng (23 Jan 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> apparently from this video that C-17 was full of surplus 1980's molitia rounds
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NBUiA3Tjs


Heck, we used those same lot numbers in the late 80's early 90's in the reg force some times...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Jan 2013)

I made my gun crews shout "Boom, rumble, rumble" to add realism.......


----------



## GK .Dundas (23 Jan 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> apparently from this video that C-17 was full of surplus 1980's molitia rounds
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01NBUiA3Tjs


 Am now waiting  with bated breath for Messrs. Staples et al and the gang at Rabble.ca to outraged at our acting as "Merchants of Death" in providing above to Malian troops! :


----------



## Rifleman62 (24 Jan 2013)

Of course the photo taken, then published by the Media Party showed the military in not particularly good light. That's their mission.

I bet there was a photo of a soldier giving aid to a child or family also.

Soldiers are not perfect like members of the media party. Sometimes soldiers fart, or have a brain fart. The media party, can and do, tell everyone how to run a government/country to perfection.


----------



## Maxadia (24 Jan 2013)

I'm sorry, but they're fighting a war....would this be more acceptable?


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Jan 2013)

.... the C-17 is hauling until just after Valentine's Day:


> Today, the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, and Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird extended Canada's assistance to France through the extension of one CC-177 Globemaster III aircraft until Feb. 15.
> 
> This aircraft is available to France to move equipment and personnel to Mali's capital, Bamako. This aircraft and Canadian Armed Forces personnel will not be part of combat operations. Canada will continue to monitor events in Mali and the Sahel ....


DND/DFAIT Info-machine, 24 Jan 13


----------



## Armymedic (25 Jan 2013)

http://www.thedailyobserver.ca/2013/01/22/427-csor-heading-to-africa

CFB PETAWAWA - Helicopters and personnel from the base will deploy to Western Africa in the next few weeks to support training of the region’s soldiers, the Department of National Defence has confirmed.

An advance team of personnel from the Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) is already in Niger in preparation for involvement in Flintlock 13, a multinational exercise that will conducted by the U.S. Africa Command in February and March.


----------



## medicineman (26 Jan 2013)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> http://www.thedailyobserver.ca/2013/01/22/427-csor-heading-to-africa
> 
> CFB PETAWAWA - Helicopters and personnel from the base will deploy to Western Africa in the next few weeks to support training of the region’s soldiers, the Department of National Defence has confirmed.
> 
> An advance team of personnel from the Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR) is already in Niger in preparation for involvement in Flintlock 13, a multinational exercise that will conducted by the U.S. Africa Command in February and March.



Live fire ex in Northern Mali as part of this?

MM


----------



## observor 69 (26 Jan 2013)

Don’t Overreact to Mali (or the Hostages)

Let the Obama doctrine lead the way.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2013/01/americans_taken_hostage_in_algeria_barack_obama_should_follow_his_own_foreign.html
Why Obama Shouldn’t Overreact on the Hostages

By Fred Kaplan | Posted Wednesday, Jan. 16, 2013, at 7:20 PM ET

| Posted Wednesday, Jan. 16, 2013, at 7:20 PM ET


Slate.com

The French regard their involvement in Mali as a short-term rescue operation Photograph by Eric Feferberg/AFP/Getty Images.


Insurgents allied with al-Qaida mount an assault on southern Mali. The French send troops and launch air strikes to stave off the attack. Islamist militants seize a foreign-owned gas field in Algeria (whose government had let the French planes use its air space) and take at least 20 westerners hostage, including two Americans.


Bin Laden is dead, we’re pulling out of Afghanistan, we’d like to be through with insurgency wars generally—but insurgency wars, it seems, aren’t through with us.


So what is to be done? And who should do it?


First, this confrontation, while nerve-racking, should not be oversold. The jihadist affiliate that’s linked to the Mali insurgents, known as al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb, has nothing like the muscle or global reach of bin Laden’s flagship in its heyday. Nor are these insurgents all jihadists; many are simply criminals, drug smugglers, or sectarian warlords who have joined the fight opportunistically—and thus might be peeled away from the fight as well.


Second, this pattern is hardly new. Islamist militias of one sort or another have been present in Mali for a long time; they took control of its northern half a year ago. Few took much notice.


Third, the assault on the Algerian gas field may or may not really have had much to do with the French air strikes, or with al-Qaida. Ransoms from freeing Western hostages has long been a big source of revenue for all these dreadful groups, as is well known to every Western country or company that lays a stake in the area. (Update, Jan. 17: It turns out the raid was led by Mokhtar Belmokhtar, a former al-Qaida figure whose motive may have been a mix of ransom and jihad. The Algerian army surrounded the oil field and, early this morning, launched an attack on Belmokhtar and his men. Casualties have been reported, among the terrorists and the hostages, but details are slim.)



Still, the incidents of the past few days—the militants’ attempt to flex their grip southward toward the capital city of Bamako, followed by the hostage-taking in Algeria and the threat to “open the gates of hell” (as one of the rebel spokesmen put it) for France and any other country that gets in their way—are concerning, to say the least.


Hence, French president Francois Hollande’s rapid dispatch of troops and warplanes to halt the onslaught. And while Malians have mixed feelings at best toward the French, who were once their colonial occupiers, they welcomed the intervention with gratitude; for without it, they certainly would have been overtaken and terrorized.


Where things go from here is less clear. The French regard their action as a short-term rescue operation—a holding action until an alliance of neighboring nations (members of the Economic Community of West African States) gather and deploy roughly 3,000 troops. But it’s not at all clear how long that will take, or how well they can fight once they arrive.


For this reason, France has asked the United States for assistance. Should we comply? If so, how?


There is something of an “Obama doctrine” for these sorts of conflicts. On the one hand, it acknowledges the war on terror, the need to kill or capture certain bad guys, the importance of dismantling groups like al-Qaida and containing their expansion—especially when allies request our assistance and are in the fight as well. On the other hand, it clearly declares: “No more Iraqs or Afghanistans”—or, as Obama put it a year ago at a Pentagon news conference announcing the results of a major strategic review, “the end of long-term nation-building with large military footprints.” Instead, as stated in the official document that he and Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta signed, the United States “will develop innovative, low-cost, small-footprint approaches to achieve our security objectives.”


And so there are many hot spots in the world where the Obama administration (sometimes President Obama himself) has ordered commando raids or drone strikes on “high-value targets.” In the case of Libya, he joined a NATO military campaign (which had been requested by the Arab League and authorized by the U.N. Security Council) but did not lead it. Rather, the United States focused on providing its “unique capabilities” to the warfront—especially drones (both for providing surveillance and dropping smart bombs), long-range airlift of supplies, and some on-the-ground intelligence assets. This is what some uncharitably called “leading from behind,” and it proved successful.


That’s probably the sort of thing we will do in Mali—and what we should do, if France’s rapid counterblow doesn’t stave off the threat. Even this is not as easy as it might seem: air bases are far, far away; drone operators need local people on the ground to tell them where to aim the cameras and what they are looking at. Whole logistical and intelligence networks need to be created. Even if Obama were inclined to do more, say, to send troops (which he almost certainly is not), he couldn’t, owing to a law barring U.S. troops from aiding a foreign government that came to power as the result of a coup. And it’s worth noting that the officer who overthrew Mali’s democratically elected government just last year, Captain Amadou Sanogo, had been, not long before, a promising student in a U.S. Army training program.


This should give further pause to anyone advocating major action on our part. We don’t know the territory, we don’t know the players, we don’t know who’s worth backing, and who’s not. There are others who do, and they happen to have a bigger stake in the conflict. One lesson we should have learned in the last decade (and in much of the half-century before that) is that, in these sorts of cases, where we’re so in the dark, we should keep a low profile, if we get involved at all.


----------



## tomahawk6 (26 Jan 2013)

French led forces have taken Gao and Lere. If the Maliang overnment can come to terms with the Taureg  their problems in the north may be minimzed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21210496


----------



## Jungle (28 Jan 2013)

I realise a lot of people on this site are opposed to Airborne forces, but the French just conducted an Airborne op north of Tombouctou in Mali, dropping a reinforced Coy from 2 REP to cut escape/access routes:

http://lignesdedefense.blogs.ouest-france.fr/archive/2013/01/28/la-legion-saute-sur-tombouctou-le-2e-rep-etait-en-guepard-ta.html



> Ce lundi matin,  un largage par 2 C-130 et 3 C-160 a eu lieu au nord de la ville de Tombouctou pour verrouiller les accés. Une compagnie "très renforcée du REP" a sauté avec succès. Elle est partie d'Abidjan où elle avait été prépositionnée.



Get some !!


----------



## tomahawk6 (28 Jan 2013)

Anyone opposed to airborne forces is most likely not  airborne. :camo:


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jan 2013)

Jungle said:
			
		

> I realise a lot of people on this site are opposed to Airborne forces, but the French just conducted an Airborne op north of Tombouctou in Mali, dropping a reinforced Coy from 2 REP to cut escape/access routes:
> 
> http://lignesdedefense.blogs.ouest-france.fr/archive/2013/01/28/la-legion-saute-sur-tombouctou-le-2e-rep-etait-en-guepard-ta.html
> 
> Get some !!


More from the French military info machine:


> Ainsi, après s’être emparée de Gao dans la nuit du 26 au 27 janvier, la force Serval, en coordination avec des unités maliennes, a pris cette nuit (28 janvier) le contrôle de l’aéroport et des accès de la ville de Tombouctou par une manœuvre aéroterrestre.
> 
> Appuyée par plusieurs patrouilles de chasse et les hélicoptères du groupe aéromobile (GAM) et des moyens de surveillance (ATL 2, drone), la force Serval s’est emparée simultanément de l’aéroport de Tombouctou avec le GTIA 21eRIMa et des abords nord de la ville par le largage des parachutistes du 2erégiment étranger de parachutistes (2eREP). Le dispositif se réarticule actuellement pour consolider la position et permettre aux autorités et forces armées maliennes (FAM) de reprendre le contrôle de la ville.
> 
> .Enfin, le bâtiment de projection et de commandement (BPC) Dixmude a accosté à Dakar ce matin. Il a entamé le débarquement des hommes et des véhicules du GTIA 2 qui commenceront sans tarder leur mouvement vers Bamako.


Clunky Google Translate into English here.

Also, a bit of video from Al Jazeera English, actually having a reporter saying Mali folks appear to be happy to see French troops....
http://www.aljazeera.com/video/africa/2013/01/201312893854155489.html
Let's hope _that_ lasts.....


----------



## tomahawk6 (28 Jan 2013)

The population didnt care for sharia law and are overjoyed to be rid of the jihadists.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jan 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The population didnt care for sharia law and are overjoyed to be rid of the jihadists.


True, and it'll stay that way as long as the bad guys can be kept out - that'll depend on the Mali troops in the long term.  Fingers crossed....


----------



## Jungle (28 Jan 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Anyone opposed to airborne forces is most likely not  airborne. :camo:



Yes, I have known this for 25 years...


----------



## cupper (28 Jan 2013)

More from a report I heard on NPR this morning:

*French-Led Forces Poised To Retake Timbuktu*

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/28/170436043/french-led-forces-close-to-taking-back-timbuktu


> In the West African nation of Mali, French-led forces are close to taking back the ancient city of Timbuktu from al-Qaida-linked extremists. Renee Montagne talks to Al Jazeera correspondent Jacky Rowland, who is embedded with French soldiers.
> 
> STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
> 
> ...


----------



## Old Sweat (28 Jan 2013)

And this from the CBC posted under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act. Who would have thunk?

Canadian special forces on ground in Mali, sources say

CBC News Posted: Jan 28, 2013 3:20 PM ET Last Updated: Jan 28, 2013 6:24 PM ET   


Canadian special forces are on the ground inside the troubled West African country of Mali to protect Canadian assets there, CBC News has learned.

The Special Forces are not there to train Malian troops — and they are not involved in any combat role, as the government has repeatedly stressed and Prime Minister Stephen Harper repeated again Monday in the House of Commons.

The Department of National Defence would not confirm or deny the special forces are in Mali due to issues of security of personnel.

But Evan Solomon, host of CBC News Network's Power & Politics, reports the special forces on the ground are protecting Canadian assets such as the Canadian embassy in the capital Bamako, according to sources.

The forces are not related to Canadian Forces crews who have been piloting and supporting Canadian C-17 transport planes in support of French troops since Jan. 18. That mission was extended last week until Feb. 15.

It is not known how many special forces are on the ground in Mali, what are their rules of engagements and what assets they are protecting.

Sources also told CBC News Canadian special forces conducting a training exercise in the neighbouring country of Niger passed along tactical information about the Malian Islamist rebels to the French.

Canada is not involved in any fighting on the ground in Mali, but after skirmishes close to the Niger-Malian border, Niger's military passed along information to the Canadian trainers who in turn, passed it along to French forces.

The Canadians were worried apparently that if the fighting spread they might be mistaken as targets — a source said passing the information to the French was simply "prudent."

Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair told Solomon that if the special forces are protecting Canadians, the embassy and embassy staff, that is "simply normal protection" and not military involvement.

Mulcair pointed to the need to avoid a situation like what occurred in Benghazi, Libya, last summer, when the American ambassador and others were killed during an attack on the U.S. consulate there.

"We would never want to see something like that — we'd want to have proper protection for Canadian personnel at the embassy.

"We're simply talking about protecting people in the embassy," Mulcair said.


But Mulcair repeated his position that Parliament be consulted before Canada makes any military or combat commitment beyond the C-17 missions.

In response to a question from Mulcair earlier Monday, Harper confirmed Parliament will be consulted on Canada's next steps, but didn't provide any additional details about either military assistance or humanitarian funding Canada may be considering.

"We will not undertake a Canadian combat mission in Mali," Harper told the Commons, reiterating his government's message over the past two weeks.

"We will through this chamber and through committees … be consulting with Parliament on any further steps that need to be taken," the prime minister told MPs in the first Commons sitting after MPs' winter break.

Fantino to attend Mali talks
International Co-operation Minister Julian Fantino is heading to Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, for a high-level international meeting on the conflict in Mali.

Addis Ababa, EthiopiaA release from Fantino's office Monday billed the talks as addressing "the financial, logistical and capacity building needs of both the Malian forces and the African-led International Support Mission in Mali."

Asked what he wanted to see from Fantino's attendance at the conference, Mulcair told Solomon that Mali is one of the countries where Canada had been engaged historically, and lamented what he said was the Conservatives' decision to withdraw from Africa recently. He called the government's decision to support French forces in Mali "the right thing to do."

Canada suspended its international development assistance to Mali following a coup in the country last spring, but it has provided humanitarian assistance to vulnerable populations affected by the conflict.

Insurgents affiliated with al-Qaeda now control the country's north. The United Nations security council passed a resolution in December authorizing an African-led mission to attempt to restore order in the country and prevent the country's capital, Bamako, from falling to the rebel groups.

The French military intervened earlier this month, with first an aerial bombing campaign and then ground


----------



## Monsoon (28 Jan 2013)

> Opposition Leader Tom Mulcair told Solomon that if the special forces are protecting Canadians, the embassy and embassy staff, that is "simply normal protection" and not military involvement.


Holy smokes! An adult, non-disingenuous opposition leader. The NDP base must be furious.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jan 2013)

Just streamlining things a bit, bringing the "Canada's mission" and "Mali in general" threads together here into this merged thread.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Sythen (28 Jan 2013)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Holy smokes! An adult, non-disingenuous opposition leader. The NDP base must be furious.



haha Thought the exact same thing when I read it.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Jan 2013)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Holy smokes! An adult, non-disingenuous opposition leader. The NDP base must be furious.


THAT's the sound you just heard....







			
				Jungle said:
			
		

> I realise a lot of people on this site are opposed to Airborne forces, but the French just conducted an Airborne op north of Tombouctou in Mali, dropping a reinforced Coy from 2 REP to cut escape/access routes ....


And here's a YouTube link to what's said to be drone video of the jumpers jumping....


----------



## BrendenDias (28 Jan 2013)

According to CBC, French forces have "pushed the Islamists out of Gao.."


----------



## Journeyman (28 Jan 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And here's a YouTube link to what's said to be drone video of the jumpers jumping....


First off, yes it's a cool vid.

But if there'd been a couple of machine gun teams moving towards the high-ground over-looking the DZ, it would be nice to pick them up and engage before their opening fire is the first indicator. We'd occasionally see scarce ISR assets used for 'tourism video'....watching our own insertions, etc,....rather than scanning for bad guys or something that can actually effect the mission -- usually if the LO was weak.

Just sayin'


----------



## Armymedic (28 Jan 2013)

The National Post is reporting JTF2 is in Bamako to protect the embassy. 

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/28/canadian-special-forces-on-the-ground-in-mali/

Did anyone catch this in the CBC article:

Sources also told CBC News Canadian special forces conducting a training exercise in the neighbouring country of Niger passed along tactical information about the Malian Islamist rebels to the French.

Canada is not involved in any fighting on the ground in Mali, but after skirmishes close to the Niger-Malian border, Niger's military passed along information to the Canadian trainers who in turn, passed it along to French forces.

The Canadians were worried apparently that if the fighting spread they might be mistaken as targets — a source said passing the information to the French was simply "prudent."

.........

I am sure they were not worried about being targets.

But the bigger question is: who is the source that has no issue making that team a target now?


----------



## PanaEng (29 Jan 2013)

> SEVARE, Mali - Tuareg fighters in northern Mali say they have seized control of the strategic city of Kidal and seven other northern towns from Islamist extremists.
> 
> The website of the National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad — the Tuaregs' name for northern Mali — made the claim Tuesday.
> 
> ...



A fourth party in the conflict makes their resurgence. 
Wonder what will France do?
Are they really independent of or opposed to the Islamists or is this a ploy for AQ to hide among the Tuareg? is that possible?
Here, from AP via Yahoo News 
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/tuareg-rebels-seized-kidal-other-northern-mali-towns-093901851.html


----------



## cupper (29 Jan 2013)

Perhaps they are hedging their bets. Since they were kicked out of Libya after the fall of Khaddafi, there are a lot of former trained mercenaries sitting in the northern desert with nothing to do.


----------



## PanaEng (29 Jan 2013)

cupper said:
			
		

> Perhaps they are hedging their bets. Since they some of them were kicked out of Libya after the fall of Khaddafi, there are a lot of former trained mercenaries sitting in the northern desert with nothing to do.


just a note, the Tuareg ppl are spread across the Sahara, not just Libya. Their struggle with the southern gov in Bamako goes back years and has been, until recently and except from Libyan support, mostly an internal issue (but Qaddafi saw this as an opportunity to expand his influence southward and fomented discontent in the whole Sahara region - he was stopped by the French in Chad ). It wasn't until several years ago, after pressure from the Algerian gov, that the Islamist infiltrated further south and slowly built their numbers to the point where they took over.

Are the French going to let them be or let the Malian army attack them?  Are they going to stay neutral and just go after the Islamist? 
I suspect the later. We'll see.


----------



## The Bread Guy (29 Jan 2013)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> .... But the bigger question is: who is the source that has no issue making that team a target now?


Maybe or some group that seems to have no trouble sharing such tidbits with more than one outlet, or doesn't realize how bad this is, apparently ....
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/01/28/pol-mali-monday.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadian-special-forces-soldiers-on-the-ground-in-mali/article7930840/
.... so I'm _sure_ they'll be tracked down and punished because people in government are not supposed to share such information.
 :sarcasm:


----------



## tomahawk6 (30 Jan 2013)

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p5W9PKR6FdU


----------



## ProtectAndServe (30 Jan 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Video:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p5W9PKR6FdU



I see the point of that video. Is there even a point in that video?


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Jan 2013)

ProtectAndServe said:
			
		

> I see the point of that video. Is there even a point in that video?



You can always tell 2 REP from a distance at night: the Gitanes spark up after a notional deployment count. ;D


----------



## tomahawk6 (30 Jan 2013)

ProtectAndServe said:
			
		

> I see the point of that video. Is there even a point in that video?



Some people like to see what a combat jump looks like. Although with no one shooting at you it might seem to be a hollywood jump. 8)


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Jan 2013)

ProtectAndServe said:
			
		

> I see the point of that video. Is there even a point in that video?



What are you asking?


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Jan 2013)

Wall Street Journal
Why France Can't Fight:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324624404578257672194671036.html

I can think of a few other reasons too!  ;D


----------



## 57Chevy (30 Jan 2013)

ProtectAndServe said:
			
		

> I see the point of that video. Is there even a point in that video?



Simple,
We of the Brotherhood like this stuff. :nod:


----------



## Jungle (30 Jan 2013)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Simple,
> We of the Brotherhood like this stuff. :nod:



Yep...

Because until you've stepped off an airplane in flight, from 800 ft in complete darkness, wearing 50 lbs of parachutes and 70 lbs of kit...

You just haven't lived !!


----------



## Jungle (30 Jan 2013)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Wall Street Journal
> Why France Can't Fight:
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324624404578257672194671036.html
> ...



Interesting... the Telegraph seems to think otherwise:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/qi/8080884/Quite-Interesting-the-QI-cabinet-of-curiosity.html



> HISTORY
> 
> Which country is the most successful military power in European history?
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2013)

Don't worry, folks, the blue berets/helmets'll sort it all out once the big guns leave and the bad guys can seep back in....


> France's defence minister has said he backs the idea of sending a UN peacekeeping force to Mali.
> 
> Jean-Yves Le Drian's comments come as the French troops continue to secure the most northerly town of Kidal.
> 
> ...


----------



## dimsum (31 Jan 2013)

"France’s achievements help to explain another French “military victory”. Whether it is ranks (general, captain, corporal, lieutenant); equipment (lance, mine, bayonet, epaulette, trench); organisation (volunteer, regiment, soldier, barracks) or strategy (army, camouflage, combat, esprit de corps, reconnaissance), the language of warfare is French."

It's funny that during Second Language Training, I was taught that the (admittedly Quebecois) French word for "leadership" is.....leadership.


----------



## Jungle (31 Jan 2013)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> It's funny that during Second Language Training, I was taught that the (admittedly Quebecois) French word for "leadership" is.....leadership.



The word "leadership" does not translate in one simple word in french, and all Francophonie countries use the english term, not only Québec.

The word "watermanship" also does not translate directly into french, yet I can swim and ride a canoe...


----------



## 57Chevy (31 Jan 2013)

Jungle said:
			
		

> The word "leadership" does not translate in one simple word in french, and all Francophonie countries use the english term, not only Québec.



Actually it does

direction or/ou commandement 
however 'leadership' is the more accepted terminology.


----------



## Edward Campbell (31 Jan 2013)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Wall Street Journal
> Why France Can't Fight:
> 
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324624404578257672194671036.html
> ...




See my comments, and how they relate to Canada, here. Whether the French are good soldiers (my opinion: generally, yes, albeit too often very badly led) and whether French _strategy_ is good (my opinion: generally, no, for the last 560 years, since about 1453) are matters for debate but what is not debatable is that France spends about 2.3% of its GDP on defence while Canada spends only 1.4%. The outcome is that France can have a foreign policy worth the name because it has the military means to act; but Canada(?) ... not so much.


----------



## Edward Campbell (31 Jan 2013)

It appears, to me, from what little I can see in the media, that France has earned a great deal of goodwill in North Africa and respect around the world for its operations in Mali. All that will, I suspect, wither and die if France becomes involved in a protracted counter-insurgency campaign.


----------



## tomahawk6 (31 Jan 2013)

France has alot of experience in North Africa with excellent intel sources. Once the bad guys have been pushed back out of the towns,this will become an SF/Air Force show.The Taureg have already begun to negotiate with France/Mali so they arent crushed like their AQ foes will be.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It appears, to me, from what little I can see in the media, that France has earned a great deal of goodwill in North Africa and respect around the world for its operations in Mali. *All that will, I suspect, wither and die if France becomes involved in a protracted counter-insurgency campaign*.


 :nod:



			
				tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> France has alot of experience in North Africa with excellent intel sources. Once the bad guys have been pushed back out of the towns,this will become an SF/Air Force show.The Taureg have already begun to negotiate with France/Mali so they arent crushed like their AQ foes will be.


The Tuaregs aren't friends of AQ ....
http://news.yahoo.com/tuaregs-seized-mali-towns-islamists-093208317.html
.... so there's a chance of two (Mali/France/African force and Tuaregs) piling on the one (AQ) - with the wild card being how much "autonomy" the Tuaregs are going to be allowed in their back yard:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-01-31/france-s-says-mali-should-accept-some-touareg-autonomy

Interesting times, interesting cards France has been dealt .....


----------



## Colin Parkinson (31 Jan 2013)

No doubt, subtle efforts to separate the 2 have been underway for sometime as well.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2013)

Highlights mine....


> *The total cost of providing a transport plane to aid international efforts in Mali is an estimated $18.6 million*, says one of Canada's top soldiers.
> 
> Of that cost, *$11.7 million is directly related to the mission itself and the remainder is the regular cost of keeping the C-17 Globemaster ready to go*, Maj.-Gen. Jonathan Vance told a House of Commons committee Thursday.
> 
> ...


The Canadian Press (via CTVnews.ca), 31 Jan 13


----------



## a_majoor (31 Jan 2013)

Civilization 1; Barbarians 0. 

Intrepid citizens band together to save their heritage against the Islamists. Given the behaviour of the Isamists, it seems pretty easy to turn the population out against them (but most of the time, the population is disorganized while the Islamists are not only organized, but have the means and will to do violence against the population as well). Glenn Reynolds of Instapundit has documented some similar actions in Egypt, Islamic Brotherhood offices being torched and and so on. So long as civilized people continue to band together, barbarians will have a harder time of it. Build high trust neighbourhoods at home, you never know when you are going to need a helping hand:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/01/30/intrepid-citizens-save-timbuktus-priceless-manuscripts/



> *Intrepid Citizens Save Timbuktu’s Priceless Manuscripts*
> 
> Once again civilization survives barbarism: Timbuktu’s ancient literary treasures were not destroyed after all. In a classic example of how the uncertainty of war can make bad reporters of us all, local accounts apparently vastly exaggerated the damage done to the city’s legendary library. Not only was the place not burned to the ground—as the city’s mayor claimed—but the manuscripts themselves were removed from the library by Malians last year. The Daily Maverick reports:
> 
> ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (1 Feb 2013)

In an article in MacLean's magazine Michael Petrou suggests that the Mali _adventure_ is very convenient for French President Hollande because it changes his well earned reputation as a timid, risk averse bureaucrat who is unwilling or unable to deal with France's many and varied problems.

Of course, if Mali turns into a quagmire, then Hollande will be seen as a timed, risk averse bureaucrat with deeply flawed strategic vision.  :dunno:


----------



## Colin Parkinson (1 Feb 2013)

I think France sees this as their backyard and do nothing is not an option. I suspect that most of the other parties are in some sort of agreement about intervening. They are also clear about not overextending themselves and have been careful not to target the Tureaq main population centre. AQM sems to find itself suddenly alone.


----------



## tomahawk6 (1 Feb 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In an article in MacLean's magazine Michael Petrou suggests that the Mali _adventure_ is very convenient for French President Hollande because it changes his well earned reputation as a timid, risk averse bureaucrat who is unwilling or unable to deal with France's many and varied problems.
> 
> Of course, if Mali turns into a quagmire, then Hollande will be seen as a timed, risk averse bureaucrat with deeply flawed strategic vision.  :dunno:



As much as I admire you Edward,this quagmire meme just doesnt fit the situation as we discussed at the outset. There is no comparison between North Africa and Afghanistan. We are the outsiders in Afghanistan but the French are on home ground so to speak.The local population of the former French colonies speak French which is a big advantage. The strategy I would follow is one of creating quagmire's for AQ and its affiliates.Iraq was one such killing ground.Afghanistan is another.My version of a quagmire would be invading Lebanon for example. A quagmire is a situation that you cannot extract yourself from.


----------



## Edward Campbell (2 Feb 2013)

I know I'm harping on the dangers of _quagmire_ and, to France's credit, they have _intervened_ in North Africa something like 40 times in the last 50 years and they either:

1. Understand when to leave; or

2. Are already in a quagmire, of sorts.

I will be very happy for Pres Hollande when (if), in a few weeks, he dusts of his hands, says, "OK, we killed a few unpleasant black folks and I've decided that we won so lets forget about whatever that place is and have a nice victory parade in Paris."

If he manages that I will hold him up as an example to the West. There's nothing wrong with periodic bouts of killing unpleasant foreigners; there's a lot wrong with declaring them to be peace loving allies and trying to make them democrats.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2013)

House of Commons "take note" debate on Mali yesterday - Hansard transcript link here, Mali debate also attached (33 page PDF)

More from CBC.ca:


> Members of Parliament took part in a four-hour 'take-note' debate on the conflict in Mali and Canada's contribution to the mission Tuesday night.
> 
> While 'take-note' debates are non-binding, they allow for MPs to make their views known in the development of government policy.
> 
> ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Feb 2013)

Because deadlines are arbitrary and not set in reality? Do we pull out at a critical moment or do we assess the situation and determine if the need is no longer there. Or perhaps we pull out if the mission changes to one beyond the scope given. The Liberals have shown appalling lack of understanding of how the military fits into world affairs, I see the tradition continues.


----------



## PanaEng (6 Feb 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Because deadlines are arbitrary and not set in reality? Do we pull out at a critical moment or do we assess the situation and determine if the need is no longer there. Or perhaps we pull out if the mission changes to one beyond the scope given. The Liberals have shown appalling lack of understanding of how the military fits into world affairs, I see the tradition continues.


Perhaps I misread your comment but I think Rae was actually saying that he did not like that the Gov set a deadline (this time) and suggested that the C-17 should be kept running as long as required.


----------



## GAP (6 Feb 2013)

Why would you leave a mission/commitment open ended.....you can always extend the mission, but there needs to an "end date"....isn't that what the opposition was crying about all those years?


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Feb 2013)

I read it as the Liberals asking for a deadline, I may have been mistaken.


----------



## Journeyman (6 Feb 2013)

It's poorly written (hence this discussion), but I read it as Rae critiquing the government for having set a deadline.

What Rae is actually saying is......._anything_ contradictory to the government's position; it's easier than thinking and having to develop a coherent policy of one's own.


----------



## PanaEng (6 Feb 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> It's poorly written (hence this discussion), but I read it as Rae critiquing the government for having set a deadline.
> 
> What Rae is actually saying is......._anything_ contradictory to the government's position; it's easier than thinking and having to develop a coherent policy of one's own.


Exactly. Had a deadline not been set, they both, Lib and NDP would be berating the Gov about it - and let me add, the same scenario would be played regardless of who is in power - that's politics


----------



## Edward Campbell (6 Feb 2013)

What are the incremental costs of the C-17 support?

Are we going to ask France to reimburse us?


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> *It's poorly written* (hence this discussion), but I read it as Rae critiquing the government for having set a deadline ....


.... which is why I like sharing primary source material like the debate transcript to provide more than just second-hand media reporting - here's hoping this clears up what Rae said (highlights mine):


> Hon. Bob Rae (Toronto Centre, Lib.):  Mr. Chair, I appreciate the fact that the government has given us the opportunity to have this discussion tonight. I want the Canadian public to know that the Prime Minister spoke to the Leader of the Opposition on this subject and I also had a chance to speak with him as well.
> 
> From the Prime Minister's comments in our one discussion, and I had a couple of discussions with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, I had a sense of deep caution on the part of the government. I had a sense that it was looking for support and a broad consensus in the House of Commons as to what would be appropriate for Canada to do.
> 
> ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Feb 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> What are the incremental costs of the C-17 support?
> 
> Are we going to ask France to reimburse us?



Likely a favour given for a future favour elsewhere.


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2013)

Evidence of less-than-fully-united effort on the part of the Mali military?


> Malian government soldiers fought mutinous paratroops in the capital Bamako on Friday in a clash that threatened to undermine a French-led offensive against Islamist rebels which has moved up close to the Algerian border.
> 
> In the southern capital, local residents fled in panic as heavy gunfire echoed from the Djikoroni-Para paratrooper base on the Niger River and army units with armoured vehicles surrounded the camp. At least one person was killed, state media reported.
> 
> ...


Reuters, 8 Feb 13


----------



## Retired AF Guy (8 Feb 2013)

> Malian government soldiers fought mutinous paratroops in the capital Bamako on Friday in a clash that threatened to undermine a French-led offensive against Islamist rebels which has moved up close to the Algerian border.



Are these the same paratroopers that were trained by CSOR not so long ago??


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Feb 2013)

A number of them were executed/murdered by other units after the coup, so I suspect they wonder if they are being sent off to die. Not to mention being sent out to Northern Mali cuts them off from the Capitol and their supporters, lessening their influence.


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Feb 2013)

A few more details as it unfolds....


> Malian government soldiers and police on Friday opened fire on the families of paratroopers loyal to a deposed president at their camp in the capital Bamako on Friday, killing or wounding a number of people, witnesses said.
> 
> A initial version of events given by Malian government officers had spoken of a heavy gun battle in the riverside capital involving armed mutinous paratroops loyal to President Amadou Toumani Toure, who was toppled in a coup last year.
> 
> ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 Feb 2013)

_Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb_ (AQIM) and its kin don't care about countries and borders; they need - or at least want - a firm base from which to launch operations against us, but they don't need to hold much ground in the traditional sense. See this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/malian-rebels-fleeing-into-lawless-deserts-of-africa/article8419174/


> Malian rebels fleeing into lawless deserts of Africa
> 
> GEOFFREY YORK
> TRIPOLI — The Globe and Mail
> ...




So, will France (aided by whom?) want to stretch its forces all the way across to Darfur? Or, having expelled AQIM from Mali, for the moment, will it declare victory and go home and have a nice big parade down the Champs-Élysées?


----------



## Monsoon (9 Feb 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> So, will France (aided by whom?) want to stretch its forces all the way across to Darfur? Or, having expelled AQIM from Mali, for the moment, will it declare victory and go home and have a nice big parade down the Champs-Élysées?


I'm guessing the latter; their offensive in Mali was clearly not geared towards containing the AQIM forces, just dispersing them to be dealt with another day somewhere else (and, presumably, by someone else). Maybe that's not the worst approach, if you consider that the options are to either do some sub-Saharan housekeeping every few years, or to entrench a politically costly permanent position spread across north Africa.


----------



## Edward Campbell (9 Feb 2013)

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I'm guessing the latter; their offensive in Mali was clearly not geared towards containing the AQIM forces, just dispersing them to be dealt with another day somewhere else (and, presumably, by someone else). Maybe that's not the worst approach, if you consider that the options are to either do some sub-Saharan housekeeping every few years, or to entrench a politically costly permanent position spread across north Africa.



 :goodpost:

I think you're right on both counts.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Feb 2013)

I also expect that life in those northern hills will make life in the Hills of Afghanistan look like paradise. If your enemy spends 9/10th of the day surviving, it's a worthwhile investment. The Turaeq are the key, the more France and allies can do to keep them separate from the AQ types the better for everyone. 

Seems that the hills do have a bit of water and lots of caves which few people know about, however the supply source for people hiding out there are the passing caravans. So I can see a Khyber Pass scenario. Special  guards to patrol the pass and protect the caravans which allow the Tureaq some economic stability and access to markets. To the south are the salt mines which are only liveable for 6 months of the year and anyone staying longer needs imported water due to the saline content of the domestic supply. The mines are still a major economic factor in Northern Mali. Frankly the area seems ripe for a split following the main river Niger into two countries. This would remove a lot of the conflict and make Mali more governable. It's interesting though to see the difference in the living conditions in Northern Mali to Southern Algeria using Panorama pictures on Google Earth. Algeria has clearly invested far more in the southern infrastructure than Mali has for the North.


----------



## a_majoor (12 Feb 2013)

Walter Russell Mead looks at these developments. If, as Edward thinks, the French declare victory and go home, then they will have avoided the "bad" part of the war. IF they stay and try to root out the AQ, like T6 would desire, then the French would be caught in the proverbial quagmire, and any military/political strategy to defeat radicals and radicalism in North  Africa would require action from the Atlantic to the Red Sea to succeed:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/02/10/the-going-gets-tough-in-mali/



> *France Pounds Sand In The Sahara*
> 
> France is now bombing the Sahara.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Feb 2013)

Some of the latest from some Committee testimony....


> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird declared Tuesday that Canada won’t “get into another Afghanistan” as he defended the Harper government’s refusal to do more in Mali.
> 
> “We are not, at the drop of a hat, going to get into another Afghanistan in this region,” Baird told members of the Commons’ foreign affairs committee. “We will reflect on Mali before we make any decisions.”
> 
> ...


National Post/Postmedia News, 12 Feb 13


> Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird says he has no interest in hearing any direct advice from former Canadian diplomat and one-time al-Qaeda hostage Robert Fowler.
> 
> "He obviously had a distinguished record as a former diplomat ... I can tell you I have one better than that: I have the entire foreign service, diplomatic team at the Department of Foreign Affairs that I count on and rely on," Baird said Tuesday as he testified before the House of Commons foreign affairs committee.
> 
> ...


CBC.ca, 12 Feb 13


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Feb 2013)

> *The Government of Canada announced today that it will extend its support of France’s mission in Mali for an additional month.  At the request of the French Government in early January, the Canadian Armed Forces contributed a Royal Canadian Air Force CC-177 Globemaster III strategic airlift aircraft in support of Operation Serval, the French mission in Mali, and will continue to provide this support until March 15.*
> 
> “Canada is committed to standing with our international allies in a fight against extremists and to making a positive contribution to regional and international security,” said the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence. “The work of our well-equipped Canadian men and women in uniform, in support of our Government's intent, is helping to stabilize the security situation in Mali and beyond.”
> 
> ...


DND/CF Info-machine, 14 Feb 13


----------



## Journeyman (15 Feb 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Prior to the minister's testimony, Fowler told the all-party committee of MPs that Baird hasn't asked to meet him to hear about his unique perspective on the al-Qaida linked terrorist threat in West Africa.


 Maybe Fowler should go on a fish broth and KFC hunger strike.   :nod:


----------



## GAP (15 Feb 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Maybe Fowler should go on a fish broth and KFC hunger strike.   :nod:



He may have had something significant to add at one time, but now it's just a whine..... :


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Feb 2013)

Mr Fowler's views are well enough known. In fairness, his general view that we, the US led West, should address Africa's many and varied problems before they become crises is sensible if politically naive. His specific views on AQIM are based on his own, solitary experience and cannot, in my estimation, form, on their own, a solid base for policy.

Mr Fowler deserves respect for his accomplishments and intellect not for having been a hostage.


----------



## Journeyman (15 Feb 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Mr Fowler deserves respect for his accomplishments and intellect not for having been a hostage.


Agreed, but his "disbelief" that John Baird wouldn't seek him out for his opinion comes across as simply Chief Spencer'esq whining.


Baird was quite correct in saying, 





> "He obviously had a distinguished record as a former diplomat ... I can tell you I have one better than that: I have the entire foreign service, diplomatic team at the Department of Foreign Affairs that I count on and rely on," Baird said Tuesday as he testified before the House of Commons foreign affairs committee.
> 
> "I'm not going to get into a debate with a former diplomat."


----------



## cupper (15 Feb 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Agreed, but his "disbelief" that John Baird wouldn't seek him out for his opinion comes across as simply Chief Spencer'esq whining.
> 
> 
> Baird was quite correct in saying,
> ...



Ouch! That's really going to leave a mark.  :nod:


----------



## The Bread Guy (18 Feb 2013)

From the attached EU Info-machine statement - more at the EUTM Mali mission page here....


> "The Council today launched the EU mission to support the training and reorganisation of the Malian Armed Forces. An advance party has arrived in Bamako on 8 February and will start the expertise and advisory tasks in the coming days. Military instructors are planned to be deployed before the end of March.
> 
> The operation, launched in the framework of UN Security Council resolution 2085 (2012), is an integral part of the EU's comprehensive approach to the situation in Mali and the Sahel. It is intended to help improve the military capacity of the Malian Armed Forces in order to enable them, under civilian authority, to restore the country's territorial integrity.
> 
> ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 Feb 2013)

I suspect those C-17's over the years are going to earn us a lot of favours over the next couple of decades. To be honest I wonder if we got enough?


----------



## Journeyman (19 Feb 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I suspect those C-17's over the years are going to earn us a lot of favours over the next couple of decades. To be honest I wonder if we got enough?



Well, at least our C-17s, like our CH-146s, can deploy anywhere in the world.  

Apparently our CF-18s are tied to 3-star (or better) accommodations ...even in a gruelling hell-hole like southern California.   :   

I guess that's why they could go to Italy, but not Afghanistan where the rest of the CF was fighting a war.  Thankfully we could rely on the USAF and the RAF, which have _fully_-deployable air forces.


----------



## 57Chevy (19 Feb 2013)

RIP 
Condolences  


French soldier dies in clash with radicals in north Mali, France's president says

The Associated Press  19 Feb

PARIS - A French soldier was killed on Tuesday in a clash with jihadists in northern Mali where the French are in the midst of a critical operation, President Francois Hollande announced.

A Defence Ministry statement said that nearly 20 extremists have been killed in the ongoing fighting.

The death of the French Foreign Legionnaire brings to two the number of French killed since France, Mali's one-time colonial ruler, launched a military intervention on Jan. 11 to push out militants who had taken over the African country's vast north. A helicopter pilot was killed on the first day of the intervention.

The operation in a mountainous region where extremists are holed up is in its "last phase," the president said.

"At this moment we have special forces who are in the north of Mali and who are intervening in a zone that is particularly delicate, which is the Ifoghas mountain range, where terror groups are holed up," he said during a visit to Greece.

"There was a serious clash with several deaths on the side of the terrorists, but also a death on the French side," Hollande said, adding that the soldier killed came from a Legionnaire parachute regiment.

The French-led operation is aimed at preventing the extremists, who are inspired by radical Islam, from taking over all of Mali and destabilizing the west African region.

                                      Article shared with provisions of The Copyright Act


----------



## observor 69 (20 Feb 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I guess that's why they could go to Italy, but not Afghanistan where the rest of the CF was fighting a war.  Thankfully we could rely on the USAF and the RAF, which have _fully_-deployable air forces.



Now from Matthew Fisher of Postmedia News:

It was not for want of trying that Canada’s fighter pilots have been the only ones from a major NATO country to have not had a chance to fly in Afghanistan. Fact-finding visits to the big airfield at Kandahar were conducted as far back as 2006 to verify that Canada’s refurbished 30-year old Hornets were suitably equipped to be based there. But Ottawa never came close to sending them.


In explaining why they were not sent, the Harper government has repeatedly stated that NATO had never asked for them. This explanation was disingenuous in the extreme. NATO never formally asked Ottawa for such a contribution because every time the alliance put out feelers, as it always does before making “official” requests, it was loudly told to forget it.


According to government and military sources, Ottawa’s skittishness over committing “fast air” assets to the UN-sanctioned mission in Afghanistan, while sending thousands of ground troops into harm’s way there, was largely based on the Harper government’s reluctance to face the political fallout from “collateral damage,” if Canadian jets killed Afghan civilians.

A second consideration was that operating a squadron of fighter jets in Kandahar would have cost nearly as much again as the billions of dollars that Canada was spending on ground forces there [that seems rather excessive].

The reservations that the Harper government had regarding sending fighter jets to Afghanistan, apparently do not apply in Libya, where Prime Minister Stephen Harper said on Friday that the situation had become “intolerable.”

However, having decided to only send a few aircraft, Canada’s role in what will be a politically and militarily complex Anglo-French-led operation in North Africa will, perforce, be peripheral.


http://www.cdfai.org/the3dsblog/?p=148


----------



## GAP (23 Feb 2013)

Al-Qaida tipsheet on avoiding drones found in Mali
By RUKMINI CALLIMACHI Associated Press, Feb 21
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AF_THE_AL_QAIDA_PAPERS_DRONES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-02-21-13-03-46

 TIMBUKTU, Mali (AP) -- One of the last things the bearded fighters did before leaving this city was to drive to the market where traders lay their carpets out in the sand.

The al-Qaida extremists bypassed the brightly colored, high-end synthetic floor coverings and stopped their pickup truck in front of a man selling more modest mats woven from desert grass, priced at $1.40 apiece. There they bought two bales of 25 mats each, and asked him to bundle them on top of the car, along with a stack of sticks.

"It's the first time someone has bought such a large amount," said the mat seller, Leitny Cisse al-Djoumat. "They didn't explain why they wanted so many."

Military officials can tell why: The fighters are stretching the mats across the tops of their cars on poles to form natural carports, so that drones cannot detect them from the air.

The instruction to camouflage cars is one of 22 tips on how to avoid drones, listed on a document left behind by the Islamic extremists as they fled northern Mali from a French military intervention last month. A Xeroxed copy of the document, which was first published on a jihadist forum two years ago, was found by The Associated Press in a manila envelope on the floor of a building here occupied by al-Qaida of the Islamic Maghreb.

The tipsheet reflects how al-Qaida's chapter in North Africa anticipated a military intervention that would make use of drones, as the battleground in the war on terror worldwide is shifting from boots on the ground to unmanned planes in the air. The presence of the document in Mali, first authored by a Yemeni, also shows the coordination between al-Qaida chapters, which security experts have called a source of increasing concern.

"This new document... shows we are no longer dealing with an isolated local problem, but with an enemy which is reaching across continents to share advice," said Bruce Riedel, a 30-year veteran of the CIA, now the director of the Intelligence Project at the Brookings Institution.

The tips in the document range from the broad (No. 7, hide from being directly or indirectly spotted, especially at night) to the specific (No 18, formation of fake gatherings, for example by using dolls and statues placed outside false ditches to mislead the enemy.) The use of the mats appears to be a West African twist on No. 3, which advises camouflaging the tops of cars and the roofs of buildings, possibly by spreading reflective glass.

While some of the tips are outdated or far-fetched, taken together, they suggest the Islamists in Mali are responding to the threat of drones with sound, common-sense advice that may help them to melt into the desert in between attacks, leaving barely a trace.

more in article


----------



## tomahawk6 (23 Feb 2013)

The US has deployed 100 armed troops next door in Niger along with drones to support French operations in Mali.


----------



## daftandbarmy (27 Feb 2013)

An interesting article by a (smart) USMC vet  ;D:

The Role of Ideology in Negotiation and Conflict Resolution During the Tuareg Rebellions 
by Raymond Miller

Abstract: From the earliest recorded battles to the most recent armed conflicts within the Middle East and North Africa, ideology has played a major role in both the negotiation process and how the states or parties involved and the supranational bodies deal with conflict resolution. This paper traces the history of conflict resolution and negotiation during the four Tuareg rebellions in Mali, the negotiation process and actions within each conflict and unlike most research on the Tuareg rebellions, focuses primarily on the role that ideology played and is playing within each of the Tuareg rebellions.       
     
It recommends the continued understanding of how underlying ideologies play a significant role in negotiation and conflict resolution within the Tuareg Rebellions and more specifically the North African Sahel region while keeping in mind the effect of these ideologies on the negotiation process between the affected states as well as the supranational bodies who attempt to mediate the conflict.  While there are other variables that play a part in these armed conflicts as well as other ideologies, the focus for this research will be on the role that primary ideologies play in the conflict resolution and negotiation process.  It outlines suggestions on how a negotiation or armed conflict should be approached to ascertain the ideologies present and to further understand conflicts between the ideologies based on past historical evidence.  Finally, it suggests the continuing focus of educating people who operate in these regions with ideologically-based negotiation and conflict resolution training provided through various organizations including the U.S. Army’s Human Terrain System (HTS) as well as the U.S. Marine Corps Center for Advanced Operational Cultural Learning (CAOCL) and even the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS).

The most significant findings in this research were: First and foremost, there has been very little research done on the role of ideology in negotiation and conflict resolution with a focus on the Tuareg rebellions; Second, there is a current misconception regarding the role that ECOWAS and other Supranational organizations should play within negotiations and armed conflicts in the region; and finally, due to the Arab Spring causing tensions to rise in the Middle East and North Africa resulting in armed conflicts, there is going to be a very real impact on the rest of the countries within the African region involving a clash of ideologies resulting in the shift of rule from a more secular ideology to the more restrictive ideologies like those of the Muslim Brotherhood or vice versa.  With this paradigm shift, there will be an increased need for understanding the role of ideology within the negotiation process as well as when resolving armed conflicts in the region.  If we are to successfully navigate these conflicts and support the sides financially or logistically that are most likely to provide security and stability in the region, we may be able to partner with and successfully create a strategic advantage with them against threats in their region.


http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/the-role-of-ideology-in-negotiation-and-conflict-resolution-during-the-tuareg-rebellions


----------



## The Bread Guy (13 Mar 2013)

Two weeks ago, the CDS had two days of meetings with French counterpart Admiral Édouard Guillaud.  

Tomorrow morning, just before 10am Eastern, PM Harper _"will participate in a joint statement with Jean-Marc Ayrault, Prime Minister of the French Republic"_ following a five-minute _"Hall of Honour walk"_.

One _more_ month of Canadian heavy airlift goodness maybe?


----------



## tomahawk6 (13 Mar 2013)

More bling for the Air Force.


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Mar 2013)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> More bling for the Air Force.



They'll make a special hanger to wear it on their fleece jacket.  :stirpot:


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Mar 2013)

Postmedia News and CBC are tweeting that the PM says "C17 transport plane will remain in Mali as long as it's needed," with "Future role still TBD".

Edited to add excerpt from the joint Canada-France statement:


> .... We reaffirm our strong commitment to defend international security and fight terrorism. In response to a request from the Malian authorities, France intervened to restore the territorial integrity of Mali and counter the offensive launched by AQIM and its allies. France thanks Canada for the significant logistical support it has provided and for its contribution to joint actions aimed at strengthening security in the region. A long-lasting solution in Mali requires a political process, including the organization of democratic elections and dialogue on national reconciliation. France and Canada intend to continue to contribute as leading partners to Mali’s long-term development ....


----------



## Colin Parkinson (14 Mar 2013)

I am assuming they rotate aircraft and crews to spread the hours around?


----------



## Armymedic (15 Mar 2013)

A RIP at 31 days to spread the wealth amongst airframes, would be my guess. Crew hours can't be too bad....France to Bamako is about a 4 hr flight.

I am sure the French hotels, serving wine and other finery, is a real drain on thier morale too.


----------



## tomahawk6 (16 Mar 2013)

Some images from Mali.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/theatrum-belli/sets/72157632507552964/


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Apr 2013)

I couldn't make this one up ....


> Malian authorities will give French President Francois Hollande another camel after the one they gave him in thanks for helping repel Islamist rebels was killed and eaten by the family he left it with in Timbuktu, an official in Mali said.
> 
> A local government official in northern Mali said on Tuesday a replacement would be sent to France.
> 
> ...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Apr 2013)

I hope they let it wander through the halls of power, then he can say "sorry the Camel ate the budget....."


----------



## tomahawk6 (9 Apr 2013)

Green transportation a socialist could love.


----------



## The Bread Guy (19 Jun 2013)

> Mali's government has signed a peace deal with Tuareg rebels to help pave the way for elections next month.
> 
> The accord calls for an immediate ceasefire and for government troops to return to the rebel-held northern town of Kidal, officials said.
> 
> ...


BBC, 18 Jun 13

From the attached analysis:


> .... This is not an overall peace deal putting an end to a rebellion that started a year-and-a-half ago. This is an agreement that is meant to allow a presidential election to go ahead next month everywhere in Mali, including Kidal, which is still controlled by Tuareg fighters.
> 
> But then, what happens after the election? Tuareg rebels insist this deal will allow them to keep their weapons while they are being garrisoned. Disarmament will only be discussed after a new president is elected, allowing much broader peace talks to take place to address the rebels' grievances.
> 
> Tuareg rebels have agreed to be committed to peace; they aren't laying down their weapons yet.


Still, small steps - we'll see how it goes.


----------



## Old Sweat (19 Jun 2013)

This is not going to end well.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 Jun 2013)

The Tuareg are the key to this area, in the end I suspect it will be semi-autonomous anyways. The Tuareg should be taking lessons from the Kurd s. Mali has enough problem without trying to forcefully control this area.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Jul 2013)

> The United Nations is beginning its military mission in Mali by bringing the 6,000 West African troops already in the country under its command.
> 
> By December it will reach full strength with 12,640 uniformed personnel.
> 
> ...


BBC, 1 Jul 13


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (1 Jul 2013)

Thought I would include a bit more:

From French MND http://www.defense.gouv.fr/operations/mali/actualite/serval-rearticulation-du-dispositif



> Mise à jour : 22/05/2013 21:39
> Le 20 mai 2013 à Gao, a eu lieu le transfert d’autorité entre le Groupement tactique interarmes numéro 2 (GTIA 2) et le GTIA Désert. Le colonel Eric Ozanne, chef de corps du 2e régiment étranger d’infanterie (2e REI) a ainsi succédé au colonel Bruno Bert, chef de corps du 92e régiment d’infanterie (92e RI).
> 
> 
> ...



France will leave a group of forces in Mali called the Groupe Tactique Interarmes Desert consisting of the following:

Headquarters and Command of the 2e Régiment Étranger d'Infanterie (2e REI)
1er Régiment Étranger de Cavalerie (1er REC), one troop with AMX 10 RC
1er Régiment de Tirailleurs (1er RTIR), one company with VBCI
2e Régiment Étranger d'Infanterie (2e REI), one company with VAB
3e Régiment d'Artillerie de Marine (3e RAMa), a mixed unit armed with CAESAR self-propelled 155mm howitzers and 120mm mortars deployed
1er Régiment Étranger de Génie (1er REG), one sapper company, one EOD squad

They will remain in the area to conduct further combat operations and provide support to MISMA, MINUSMA and EUTM Mali missions as well as the Malian Army.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Jul 2013)

That's still a substantial QRF, I can see as the Islamist start to focus in an area, the QRF will go there, pound them for a bit and withdraw. The local forces and UN will provide a base level of security. The key to this working is good intel.


----------



## Journeyman (3 Jul 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> .....UN ........good intel.


         :rofl:

Oh, you were serious.   :-[


----------



## CougarKing (8 Jan 2014)

Defense News



> *France To Cut Troops In Mali, Says Mission Accomplished*
> Jan. 8, 2014 - 06:09PM   |   By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
> 
> CREIL, FRANCE — *France will cut its troops in Mali to 1,600 by the middle of next month from the current level of 2,500, President Francois Hollande said Wednesday.*
> ...


----------



## CougarKing (20 Nov 2015)

Another ISIS-affiliated group?

Associated Press



> *Islamic extremists attack hotel in Mali's capital that was full of foreigners*
> 
> By Harouna Traore And Baba Ahmed, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press
> 
> ...


----------



## tomahawk6 (20 Nov 2015)

AQ affiliate.The hotel assault by Malian and French SF was successful but not without casualties I am afraid.Two US SF who had been attending a meeting at the US embassy joined the assault to help rescue american hostages.It could have been alot worse.

http://news.yahoo.com/shooting-under-way-radisson-hotel-bamako-afp-085446175.html#


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Jun 2016)

Wherever could such peacekeepers come from, pray tell?


> United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has asked the Security Council to add just over 2,500 peacekeepers to the U.N. peacekeeping mission in Mali, which has been hit by a series of deadly attacks, according to a new U.N. report.
> 
> Al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) claimed responsibility on Wednesday for an attack a day earlier on two U.N. sites in northern Mali where a peacekeeper from China and three civilians were killed and over a dozen others were wounded.
> 
> ...


Meanwhile ...

_"The members of the Security Council condemned in the strongest terms the terrorist attack on 31 May 2016 against the camp of the United Nations Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali (MINUSMA) in Gao, in the north of Mali, during which one peacekeeper from the People’s Republic of China was killed and others were injured ..."_
_"The Secretary-General is outraged by the terrorist attacks carried out yesterday in Gao, Mali, against the United Nations ..."_
_"In two separate incidents that took place yesterday in the Gao area of Mali’s restive north, terrorists attacked an outpost of the United Nations Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission (MINUSMA), as well as the services of a local provider for the UN Mine Action Service (UNMAS), the most recent in a string of deadly attacks against the UN in the country ..."_


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Nov 2016)

Bumped with the latest:  Op BARKHANE becomes Op FREQUENCE:


> The Canadian Armed Forces conducted their first flight under Operation FREQUENCE, providing airlift support to France’s operations in West Africa and the Sahel region.
> 
> On November 20, 2016, a Royal Canadian Air Force CC-177 Globemaster strategic airlifter transported personnel and equipment from France to West Africa and the Sahel region.
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jan 2017)

An editorial (shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)_) ...


> François Hollande, the French President, visited Mali earlier this month, just a few days before Islamist terrorists carried out a particularly savage attack in that central African country.
> 
> That ought to be a vivid reminder of the risks that the Trudeau government may be taking before long in Mali, too. The Liberal Party promised in its election platform to revive Canadian peacekeeping, and it is now expected that the government will send as many as 600 troops to Mali this year to support a beleaguered United Nations mission there.
> 
> ...



... and a letter to the editor (scroll down):


> *Who is sent to war*
> 
> Re On Mali, Proceed With Extreme Caution (editorial, Jan. 24): The best test of the justification for sending troops into areas of high risk is whether the people who propose to send them believe the cause is worthy of risking their own or their children’s lives. In the two world wars, Canada’s elites, like those of most allied countries, did not stint in enlisting and encouraging their children to enlist. How often does this happen today?
> 
> ...


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Feb 2017)

My French is weak, but a politician saying military ops in Mali's a "Sisyphus in the Sahel" can't be good news.


----------



## Ashkan08 (23 Aug 2018)

The Canadian peacekeeping mission in Mali has started.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-mali-peacekeeping-mission-1.4794747


----------



## Rifleman62 (23 Aug 2018)

Ashkan08 said:
			
		

> The Canadian peacekeeping mission in Mali has started.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-mali-peacekeeping-mission-1.4794747



"The Canadian *peacekeeping* mission in Mali has started". Statements like that is why the Cdn public are ill informed.


----------



## Ashkan08 (23 Aug 2018)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> "The Canadian *peacekeeping* mission in Mali has started". Statements like that is why the Cdn public are ill informed.



Of course the mission won't be "peaceful" at all times. Especially since the MINUSMA mission is one of the most dangerous UN peace operations. It is however, considered a UN peacekeeping mission.


----------



## OldSolduer (23 Aug 2018)

Ashkan08 said:
			
		

> Of course the mission won't be "peaceful" at all times. Especially since the MINUSMA mission is one of the most dangerous UN peace operations. It is however, considered a UN peacekeeping mission.



UNPROFOR in Croatia 1993 was one of those missions. We’re celebrating it in early September. 

_
*edit - Mod fixed quote_


----------



## MilEME09 (25 Aug 2018)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> "The Canadian *peacekeeping* mission in Mali has started". Statements like that is why the Cdn public are ill informed.



Think the word of the day here is propaganda, think the modern name is alternative facts and fake news


----------



## CBH99 (29 Oct 2018)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLZD55yLzmU


Not a bad little video for those lurkers & newbies here on the forums who frequently ask about kit.  Just thought I'd post it for posting sake


----------



## dimsum (30 Oct 2018)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLZD55yLzmU
> 
> 
> Not a bad little video for those lurkers & newbies here on the forums who frequently ask about kit.  Just thought I'd post it for posting sake



He was very well-spoken.  Is this part of a series?


----------



## RubberTree (31 Oct 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> He was very well-spoken.  Is this part of a series?



It is part of a series. You can find the intro video and 1 other on the CAF Operations Facebook page here:

https://www.facebook.com/CAFOperations/

RT


----------



## MarkOttawa (17 Nov 2018)

One year and done for MINUSMA:



> Defence minister confirms Mali mission will not be extended
> _Promise to UN to head year-long mission has been fulfilled, Harjit Sajjan tells CBC's The House_
> 
> ...The Canadian Press reported this week that the UN has quietly asked Canada about extending its role.
> ...



What a half-hearted, faint-hearted effort. From Prof. Steve Saideman:



> Extending in Mali: Why the Hell Not?
> ...
> Because leaving on time here is not as bad as leaving Afghanistan early, but it has a similar effect: burning the political capital that was gained via sending the troops in the first place.  Maybe not all of it, but some of it.  The UN officials who begged Canada to replace the Germans are now scrambling to figure out what happens after Canada leaves--so they aren't happy.  The Germans and other Europeans who felt that Canada was doing them a favor will be unhappy since Canada can't just do a wee bit more, or as I always put it, the least Canada can do.  The Romanians will not be thrilled because they may end up getting pressed to show up earlier, which means more money and more risk.  Is the campaign to get a UN seat over, with Canada declaring no mas?  Of course, folks will say that this is not about a UN seat.... sure, sure.  But not extending for a few months certainly does not help the campaign, whether Canadian officials have or have not recognized that they aren't winning it.
> 
> ...



And CGAI "Policy Paper" by Prof. Chris W. J. Roberts:


> Op PRESENCE – Mali: Continuity Over Change in Canada’s “Return to Peacekeeping” in Africa
> ...
> *Executive Summary*
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## blacktriangle (17 Nov 2018)

Not surprised, but also not sad to see this happen. That place isn't worth a single Canadian life.


----------



## MarkOttawa (19 Dec 2018)

This is embarrassing:



> El Salvador deploys second aviation unit to Mali
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not even a CC-177 for the delivery.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## dimsum (19 Dec 2018)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> This is embarrassing:
> 
> Not even a CC-177 for the delivery.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure why that's specifically embarrassing for us.  Happy to be corrected, but we didn't step up to provide transport into theatre for that mission, right?

We have 5 C-17s, and at least one (or two?) would be in maintenance at all times.  Between domestic duties, Latvia, Ukraine, Mali, Iraq, and other places, the C-17 fleet is stretched thin like all others.  The transport guys are being flown off their feet and there are regulatory limits on the amount of hours they can fly (and consequently maintenance requirements for the airplane).


----------



## MarkOttawa (19 Dec 2018)

Dimsum:

Embarrassed by unwillingness to take more active direct troop support role for CH-146s. As for CC-177, CAF has been happy to publicize their support (in Op FREQUENCE) of #France's Op Barkhane combat counterterrorism mission in Sahel/Mali:
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad-current/op-frequence.page

Photo in Central African Republic:







Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 Dec 2018)

If the Griffon's are already up flying doing 'something other than escort for the Chinook', who is going to do the escort piece for the Chinook?  Griffon's were used for escort in Afghanistan, and the 2 TacHel assets from Canada would be better working together than splitting them up (IMO...I'm obviously not a TacHel type).  Mali isn't the only theatre we have TacHel operating in.  We don't have the biggest fleets on the globe...

_Joint Task Force-Iraq includes a CAF air component.  Air Task Force-Iraq supports Coalition air operations with air assets and crews. This includes:
_
•one CC-150 Polaris aerial refueller
•two CC-130J Hercules tactical airlift aircraft. They support the movement of Coalition personnel and cargo in the region
•a tactical aviation detachment. It includes up to four CH-146 Griffon helicopters. They carry Canadian troops, equipment, and supplies in theatre near Baghdad. The Griffons can do casualty evacuations if required.  A variety of self-defence weapons are fitted to the aircraft
•associated aircrew and support crews

As for the GlobeMaster...we can't be everyone's taxi.  Our transport fleet(s) are running non-stop now.  Moving some allies kit/personnel around in theatre (or at least, the same continent) is much easier than bringing other assets from farther away.  Also note, 2 of our J Models are part of ATF-1.  That means 2 airframes, air and ground crews deployed 24/7/365.  From experience, that sounds easier and less of a resource demand than it is in reality.  

:2c:


----------



## dimsum (19 Dec 2018)

In addition, the C-17/Herc fleet is used in support of our other fleets too.  For example, if the Auroras are planning to go somewhere for exercise/ops, then there's a need for transport aircraft to carry spare parts and mission-related kit that they can't bring themselves.  I imagine most other fleets have similar requirements.

For the OP BARKHANE bit, I imagine that our bird was already in the area (probably bringing Canadian stuff for our mission) and could help out before returning to Canada or whatever tasking was next.  It gives us goodwill and coalition points, as well as PR points.  Unless that was actively hurting a national tasking, I don't see the problem.


----------



## Loachman (19 Dec 2018)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If the Griffon's are already up flying doing 'something other than escort for the Chinook', who is going to do the escort piece for the Chinook?  Griffon's were used for escort in Afghanistan, and the 2 TacHel assets from Canada would be better working together than splitting them up (IMO...I'm obviously not a TacHel type).  Mali isn't the only theatre we have TacHel operating in.  We don't have the biggest fleets on the globe...
> 
> _Joint Task Force-Iraq includes a CAF air component.  Air Task Force-Iraq supports Coalition air operations with air assets and crews. This includes:
> _
> ...



_*Tac Hel*_, with a space between "Tac" and "Hel"...

Griffons performed other roles in Afghanistan besides Chinook escort, depending upon priorities, availability, and serviceability.

This would likely be true in Mali as well, but the priority is medevac, so sufficient crews and machines must be protected in order to guarantee that that support is available at all times. Preservation of life, ie operational emergencies, would also be a priority.

There are more than four Griffons in Iraq, split between two different locations.

Supporting three such distributed flying ops with our limited pers and hel resources is a little bit of a challenge.

I am not sure what flying time limits may apply in each location, but scheduled major inspections take a couple of months, either at a civ contractor or 400 Squadron in Borden, and require an aircraft swap to do so. Hours must, therefore, be carefully managed.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 Dec 2018)

Loachman said:
			
		

> _*Tac Hel*_, with a space between "Tac" and "Hel"...



 :Tin-Foil-Hat:  whoops!


----------



## MarkOttawa (24 Dec 2018)

Wow! I smell a dead UN Security Council seat (not that it really is worth much except trouble in having to take sides sometimes on tough matters--though voting to extend peacekeeping missions we won't take part in would be easy):



> Canada to deploy cargo plane part time for UN missions in new year
> ...
> A Canadian military Hercules transport will soon begin once-a-week support missions for United Nations peacekeeping operations in Africa, the country's top military commander said.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## YZT580 (24 Dec 2018)

Arrogant isn''t he?  We go in, show them the best way to do it right and then leave.  Pompous A£££


----------



## PuckChaser (27 Dec 2018)

The aircraft will split time between Iraq and Uganda before it becomes full time deployed to Uganda... cynically reading between the lines for me says we're pulling the TAL Det out of IMPACT this year to fulfill a campaign promise rather than support our folks downrange.


----------



## RedcapCrusader (28 Dec 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The aircraft will split time between Iraq and Uganda before it becomes full time deployed to Uganda... cynically reading between the lines for me says we're pulling the TAL Det out of IMPACT this year to fulfill a campaign promise rather than support our folks downrange.



Weeeeeeeeeeee!


----------



## Retired AF Guy (17 Jan 2019)

From the Warzone:

Canadian Troops Pose With Chinook As It Sticks A Pinnacle Landing While On Deployment In Mali


----------



## Eye In The Sky (17 Jan 2019)

Great picture!  I'd like it even more without the UN patch on the helo and the blue helmet covers.


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Mar 2019)

"Uh, yeah, about that -- will you look at the time?  We were just leaving ..."


> As Canada’s military mission races to leave Mali and the United Nations pleads for it to stay, the European Union is making a fresh appeal to the Canadian Forces to partner with it in the West African country.
> 
> Gen. Esa Pulkkinen, director general of the EU’s military staff, told The Canadian Press that he has asked the Canadian government to bring its military training expertise to Mali as part of a broader effort to stamp out Islamic extremism in Africa’s Sahel region.
> 
> ...


More @ link


----------



## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2019)

Lunchmeat was banned?

I rather enjoyed his posts  :not-again:


----------



## Jed (25 Mar 2019)

Oh boy. Just what Canada does not need, an extended mission inMali to needlessly expend the country’s blood and treasure.


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Mar 2019)

NOW Team Orange gets all military - from the info-machinen ...


> *NDP: Trudeau Must Accept UN Request to Extend Mali Mission, Help Ensure Operation Success*
> 
> OTTAWA – Justin Trudeau’s Liberal government has buried a formal request from the United Nations asking Canada to extend its mission in Mali until replacements arrive. For at least a month, Prime Minister Trudeau has been misleading the public by claiming that the UN only asked Canada to stay for one year which is up on August 1.
> 
> ...


----------



## MarkOttawa (26 Mar 2019)

Earlier:



> Canadian peacekeepers evacuated injured French counter-terror troops in Mali
> 
> Canadian peacekeepers were called upon to evacuate several wounded French soldiers in Mali earlier this month after their patrol was ambushed while hunting for militants along the border with Niger.
> 
> ...



Meanwhile look who's helping Barkhane directly:



> Denmark proposes deployment to France’s Operation Barkhane in the Sahel
> 
> The Danish government announced on Thursday, February 28 that it plans to send troops and equipment to support France’s Operation Barkhane in the Sahel.
> 
> ...



Just not Justin's cup of tea, unlike those bloodthirsty Danes and Estonians, eh?

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Mar 2019)

"Sure, we'll send a Herc, buuuut ..."


> The United Nations is pushing back against restrictions Canada wants to put on the use of a military transport plane it promised to deploy in Africa.
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau first announced in November 2017 that Canada would send a C-130 Hercules to Uganda as part of a larger package of pledges to the UN.
> 
> ...


More @ link


----------



## Cloud Cover (28 Mar 2019)

I've never really heard a good reason for this deployment to being with. If it was counter-terrorism, I would get that, but this cream puff stunt Trudeau is pulling over there is a waste of avgas.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Mar 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> "Sure, we'll send a Herc, buuuut ..."More @ link



We should also add no weapons aboard the hercs and demand the ground crews at the airstrips we land have gender parity.


----------



## Jed (28 Mar 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We should also add no weapons aboard the hercs and demand the ground crews at the airstrips we land have gender parity.



I thought they had the gender parity thing sorted before the Mission got going?


----------



## Journeyman (28 Mar 2019)

Jed said:
			
		

> I thought they had the gender parity thing sorted before the Mission got going?


We attempted but failed to reach gender "parity".... but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be sanctimonious in dictating how other countries' airfields should be run.   

(Although I think he was being sarcastic;  it's hard to tell sometimes since that's often just how he talks  ;D )


----------



## Cloud Cover (28 Mar 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> We attempted but failed to reach gender "parity".... but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be sanctimonious in dictating how other countries' airfields should be run.
> 
> (Although I think he was being sarcastic;  it's hard to tell sometimes since that's often just how he talks  ;D )



Right. Bloody well right. We are the champions of fems!!


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Mar 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> We attempted but failed to reach gender "parity".... but that *doesn't mean we shouldn't be sanctimonious in dictating how other countries' airfields should be run.*
> 
> (Although I think he was being sarcastic;  it's hard to tell sometimes since that's often just how he talks  ;D )



80% sarcasm
20% wouldn't be surprised if

 ;D


----------



## MarkOttawa (29 Mar 2019)

This is getting truly embarrassing, esp. with major UN peacekeeping ministerial on now in NY and with Sajjan and Freeland there trying to look smug about Canada's great new efforts:



> Canada asks UN for more time to decide whether to extend Mali peacekeeping mission
> Social Sharing
> 
> _Request comes as Canada co-chairs an international peacekeeping summit starting Friday at UN headquarters_
> ...



Canada sure is back.  Meanwhile MINUSMA itself tweeted this story from UN on what SecGen Guterres says is needed, bit of a message to Canada I suspect:

1) The tweet:



> Guterres lauds UN peacekeeping, highlights need to bridge ‘critical’ gaps
> https://twitter.com/UN_MINUSMA/status/1111685661818540032



2) Guterres:


> Guterres lauds UN peacekeeping, highlights need to bridge ‘critical’ gaps
> ...
> The Secretary-General also highlighted some “critical” gaps in UN missions that must be bridged, such as the urgent need in the Mali mission (MINUSMA), for armored personnel carriers and in CAR (MINUSCA) for 24/7 evacuation helicopters that can operate from remote areas.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## MarkOttawa (29 Mar 2019)

Now Canada backs out:



> Canada won't extend peacekeeping mission in Mali: Freeland
> 
> Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland says the Trudeau government will not extend Canada's peacekeeping mission in Mali despite a UN appeal for it to stay longer.
> 
> ...



That $15M will sure make up for pulling out of MINUSMA.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Good2Golf (29 Mar 2019)

So when the CPC wins the Fall election, the leftover Liberals can complain about how the Conservatives lost Canada the seat on the UNSC... :not-again:


----------



## The Bread Guy (30 Mar 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> So when the CPC wins the Fall election, the leftover Liberals can complain about how the Conservatives lost Canada the seat on the UNSC... :not-again:


Assuming that if the Tories win, they'll _continue_ to seek a Security Council seat ...


----------



## daftandbarmy (31 Mar 2019)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Now Canada backs out:
> 
> That $15M will sure make up for pulling out of MINUSMA.
> 
> ...



Top tip:

It’s not quitting if you use words like ‘reposture’. #spindoctorlife


----------



## MarkOttawa (31 Mar 2019)

"Advancing to the rear", eh?

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## brihard (31 Mar 2019)

In fairness, the government is at least doing exactly what they said they would do on this one. Difficult to fault that, particularly given how scathing the criticism has been from troops and vets for picking that particular place for a mission.

All said and done, fair to say that Mali has been a good development / proving ground for the particular capabilities we deployed there? It certainly seems like it.


----------



## Jed (31 Mar 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> In fairness, the government is at least doing exactly what they said they would do on this one. Difficult to fault that, particularly given how scathing the criticism has been from troops and vets for picking that particular place for a mission.
> 
> All said and done, fair to say that Mali has been a good development / proving ground for the particular capabilities we deployed there? It certainly seems like it.




Well I for one am glad it hasn't turned out to be like a Dieppe Raid learning experience.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (31 Mar 2019)

Brihard said:
			
		

> All said and done, fair to say that Mali has been a good development / proving ground for the particular capabilities we deployed there? It certainly seems like it.



Likely true, but...is that a good enough reason to deploy a significant portion of a fleet?  The same statement could be said about the Aurora IMPACT sustained op;  it worked but...to what end and at what cost?


----------



## daftandbarmy (31 Mar 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Likely true, but...is that a good enough reason to deploy a significant portion of a fleet?  The same statement could be said about the Aurora IMPACT sustained op;  it worked but...*to what end and at what cost*?



Exactly... 

While taking nothing away from the contribution made by the RCAF and others during this mission, it's a good example of a fairly weak and 'air headed' national foreign policy, adrift with few militarily strategic anchors to rally round. The first world nation's equivalent of a drive by, with no shots fired....


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Apr 2019)

A bit of an overview of at least some of the threat in this part of the world, via NJ's DHS ...


> *Al-Qa'ida in the Islamic Maghreb*
> 
> *Background*
> 
> ...


More in attached one-pager.


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Apr 2019)

All-party Commons committee:  agree with GTFO option - recommendations:


> ... Recommendation 1
> 
> That the Government of Canada adhere to the one-year withdrawal deadline of 31 July 2019 for Operation PRESENCE that was announced in March 2018.
> 
> ...


More in full report of the Standing Committee on National Defence issued Friday here, and from CBC.ca here.


----------



## Kerosen (11 Jun 2019)

post removed for OPSEC

*Milnet Staff*


----------



## The Bread Guy (14 Jun 2019)

The latest from the info-machine - highlights mine ...


> In July 2018, Canada joined 56 other UN Member States as a contributor to the UN Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali (MINUSMA) to provide medical evacuation by air of injured personnel, supply transport and logistics support.
> 
> Since then, the men and women deployed under Operation PRESENCE - Mali have conducted 10 medical evacuations. Canadian helicopters have accumulated more than 3,000 flying hours, transported more than 6,400 passengers and delivered more than 370,000 pounds of cargo. This contribution has provided essential support to MINUSMA in the execution of its mission to support the implementation of the 2015 peace agreement.
> 
> ...


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Jun 2019)

A little longer

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/06/14/liberals-push-end-of-mali-peacekeeping-mission-to-august-3/#.XQQBuXdFyUl


----------



## MarkOttawa (14 Jun 2019)

From https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/06/14/liberals-push-end-of-mali-peacekeeping-mission-to-august-3/#.XQQBuXdFyUl"


> The Canadian Forces' peacekeeping mission in Mali is going to last a little longer than previously planned — but not as long as the United Nations hoped...
> 
> The UN had asked Canada to stay until October, when Romanian troops take over, to minimize a gap in providing lifesaving medical evacuations for injured UN peacekeepers.
> 
> ...



This is so begrudging, unwilling, half-hearted that it's truly embarrassing after this government's blather about Canada being back, re-committing to peacekeeping (whatever one's own views on such missions), etc., etc..  What serious countries (esp. our NATO allies in Europe) and many in Africa must now think about us one shudders to contemplate.

No UNSC seat for sure (thank goodness in my view).

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## PuckChaser (15 Jun 2019)

Amazing. We can't get regular sustainment flights of C-17s into Canadian operations because they're constantly broken due to being run hard almost 24/7, but we can afford to give one up to help the Romanians out?  :facepalm:


----------



## dimsum (15 Jun 2019)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Amazing. We can't get regular sustainment flights of C-17s into Canadian operations because they're constantly broken due to being run hard almost 24/7, but we can afford to give one up to help the Romanians out?  :facepalm:



I think it'd be more like adding a lift or two, but I could be wrong.


----------



## tomahawk6 (15 Jun 2019)

Or buy more C17's. The USAF is going to reopen production to meet its squadron expansion. 

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/airlift-tanker-annual/2018/10/26/could-the-air-force-restart-the-c-17-production-line/


----------



## tomahawk6 (15 Jun 2019)

Or buy Antonov's AN 178 for a cost of 40 to 70 million each. 

https://www.airplaneupdate.com/2019/04/antonov-an-178.html


----------



## PuckChaser (16 Jun 2019)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Or buy Antonov's AN 178 for a cost of 40 to 70 million each.
> 
> https://www.airplaneupdate.com/2019/04/antonov-an-178.html



Right in that article it says its main competitor (among others) is the 130J. We need more C-17s, split fleet will never work with the CAF.


----------



## MilEME09 (16 Jun 2019)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Or buy more C17's. The USAF is going to reopen production to meet its squadron expansion.
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/digital-show-dailies/airlift-tanker-annual/2018/10/26/could-the-air-force-restart-the-c-17-production-line/



one could only hope if the line restarted we could jump in on them and get our selves a few more, say anywhere from 4-8 more, though I am pulling that number out of my butt, any expansion of our transport fleet would be welcomed.


----------



## YZT580 (16 Jun 2019)

Be better to look at replacing the airbuses.  They are all over 30 years old.  Replace them one for one with new A330 MRTT.  Now you have a long range cargo transport, a troop transport and an aerial refuelling aircraft  that isn't a museum piece.  Keep the C17 for outsized loads and missions.  And I am not an airbus fan by the way.  It just that it is accepted and flying while the B767 is still having problems


----------



## CBH99 (16 Jun 2019)

Not a fan of Airbus?


----------



## CBH99 (16 Jun 2019)

Sorry first time posting using my phone.  Question - have we had any trouble with the Airbus fleet??    I agree replacing 1 for 1 with the A330 MRTT would be a simple & logical choice.  Boeing has some serious issues these days.


----------



## YZT580 (17 Jun 2019)

experiences only as a pax.  Always look like the historical Nissan cars (sorta cheap).


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jun 2019)

South African defence media says Canada's also still helping the French w/Op BARKHANE …


> Half of all freight and personnel transported for the French-led Operation Barkhane in the Sahel is carried out by allied and European countries, France has revealed.
> 
> The French defence ministry on 25 June said its allies have since 2019 been responsible for 50% of freight and personnel transport for Barkhane forces, which are fighting armed terrorist groups operating in the Sahel region.
> 
> ...



No such updates @ CAF's Op FREQUENCE page, although an official info-machine Tweet from mid-December 2018 says. "We sometimes provide airlift transportation for the French military to and from the Sahel region of Africa on #OpFREQUENCE. Recently, the CC-177 Globemaster transported 88,000 lbs of cargo over 26.4 hours …" - another mid-Dec 2018 Tweet here.

Attached also find French MoD update (in French) the story appears to be based on.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Jul 2019)

Mali crisis worsens as hundreds of thousands flee militia attacks 

More than 200,000 people have been displaced since start of 2019 and about 600 killed

The UN’s peacekeeping mission in Mali has just had its mandate renewed, and although it pledges to protect civilians, researchers say in practice it does not allow its troops to pre-emptively disarm communities.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/11/mali-crisis-worsens-as-hundreds-of-thousands-flee-militia-attacks


----------



## The Bread Guy (22 Jul 2019)

UK chipping in ...


> In recognition of the increasing instability in the Sahel region, the UK Government has authorised a large-scale British peacekeeping deployment to Eastern Mali. Based in Gao, 250 personnel will deploy in response to a UN requirement and will address a key capability gap for the UN Mission.
> 
> Initially deploying for three years as part of a 12,500 strong international force, the UK contribution will assist the UN mission as it seeks to deliver long-term and sustainable peace in Mali.
> 
> ...


More from the UK MoD info-machine @ link


----------



## daftandbarmy (22 Jul 2019)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> UK chipping in ...More from the UK MoD info-machine @ link



'Large Scale' = 250 troops?   :rofl:


----------



## MarkOttawa (23 Jul 2019)

Note that RAF Chinooks are also working from Mali with French counter-terrorism Op Barkhane:



> UK extends helicopter deployment to France-led Operation Barkhane in the Sahel
> 
> The British military deployment to the France-led Operation Barkhane in the Sahel region of Africa will be extended, outgoing U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May said on Monday, July 8.
> 
> ...



Allies and others see how long Justin Trudeau's gov't took to commit to peacekeeping in Mali, how clearly they wanted to accept the least risk possible, and how eager they are to bug out even when UN has pleaded for a few more months; then when allies and others see what other are doing in MINUSMA, and to help French with Barkhane, they can only conclude that Canada is no longer a serious actor for many international security matters. All just for show. Fie.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## YZT580 (23 Jul 2019)

what more can you expect from a dance teacher.


----------



## dimsum (23 Jul 2019)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> what more can you expect from a dance teacher.



I'm sure this isn't purely the PM's call - some advisors would have had to advise him either way.  I would be very surprised if he just woke up one day and said "we aren't extending the Mali operation".


----------



## YZT580 (23 Jul 2019)

have any units been assigned to a rapid deployment group as promised?  Is there a C130 working with the UN in Africa as promised?  It took almost 3 years for them to respond to the Mali issue in the first place and then it was a pretty weak show.  Much needed but it sure wouldn't have hurt to extend through to October.  Trudeau has the same respect for the military that his father had and shows it.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Jul 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm sure this isn't purely the PM's call - some advisors would have had to advise him either way.  I would be very surprised if he just woke up one day and said "we aren't extending the Mali operation".



Quite right, Dimsum.

But there have always been two faction in the Liberal party - at least since the days of Trudeau the First: The "let's unilaterally disarm because if we just extend a hand of friendship to all regimes (even the worst), it'll all work out peacefully in the end" (a faction that included Trudeau senior, and now junior and his advisers, and Lloyd Axworthy), and then the "realpolitic" ones who followed the Pearson view (speak softly - but have strong military back-up)", which included the two Paul Martin's.

So he is getting advice from the first one, unfortunately.


----------



## Journeyman (24 Jul 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm sure this isn't purely the PM's call - some advisors would have had to advise him either way.


In reality, it was purely the PM's call.   Giving advice is easy for those who don't have to actually make the decisions.


[And those giving advice can be thrown under the bus, then come back all squeaky clean a few months later to run the re-election campaign once the citizens' attention span was waned.... but that's a separate issue  :not-again: ]


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Jul 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> In reality, it was purely the PM's call.   Giving advice is easy for those who don't have to actually make the decisions.
> 
> 
> [And those giving advice can be thrown under the bus, then come back all squeaky clean a few months later to run the re-election campaign once the citizens' attention span was waned.... but that's a separate issue  :not-again: ]



Good post and I quite agree.


----------



## thegamerdad02 (26 Jul 2019)

god bless our military ;D ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy (26 Jul 2019)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> [And those giving advice can be thrown under the bus, then come back all squeaky clean a few months later to run the re-election campaign once the citizens' attention span was waned.... but that's a separate issue  :not-again: ]


At least those on the _political_ side giving advice, anyway ...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (27 Jul 2019)

I for one don't care that we aren't renewing the Mali Mission as I am of the opinion that UN Operations are a colossal waste of time, money and people.  

Now if the Government of Canada were contributing personnel to French anti-terror operations in the Sahel, I would support that.


----------



## MarkOttawa (27 Jul 2019)

Humphrey Bogart: There is zero chance of Justin Trudeau's gov't contributing troops or helos (the UK has done the latter https://thedefensepost.com/2019/07/08/uk-raf-sahel-barkhane-deployment-extended/ ) tp France's Op Barkhane--after all we don't do counter-terrorism these days, don't you now? See this cringe-worthy statement in March by the commander of Op PRESENCE:



> Canadian peacekeepers evacuated injured French counter-terror troops in Mali
> 
> Canadian peacekeepers were called upon to evacuate several wounded French soldiers in Mali earlier this month after their patrol was ambushed while hunting for militants along the border with Niger.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (27 Jul 2019)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Humphrey Bogart: There is zero chance of Justin Trudeau's gov't contributing troops or helos (the UK has done the latter https://thedefensepost.com/2019/07/08/uk-raf-sahel-barkhane-deployment-extended/ ) tp France's Op Barkhane--after all we don't do counter-terrorism these days, don't you now? See this cringe-worthy statement in March by the commander of Op PRESENCE:
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



How dare we save those filthy counter-terrorists lives!


----------



## MarkOttawa (27 Jul 2019)

Gosh! Look! UK willing to take risks on the ground with MINUSMA, unlike Justin Trudeau with Op PRESENCE:

UK to contribute long-range reconnaissance group to MINUSMA


> The British Army will contribute a 250-strong long-range reconnaissance task group to the UN Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali (MINUSMA) from 2020, UK Secretary of Defence Penny Mordaunt announced on 22 July.
> 
> “The UK contribution will provide improved situational awareness and information provision that will help the Mission – military and civilian – in support of the mandate to progress towards a long-term and sustainable peace in Mali,” she said in a statement to parliament.
> 
> ...



What must our allies, others think of this gov't, us?

And from 2018, delivering others' boots on the ground in role similar to Brits now:



> "Canadian peacekeepers ‘shoulder-to-shoulder’ with German, Dutch troops in Mali
> ...
> The Germans and Dutch are tasked with reconnaissance and gathering intelligence on the insurgent threat, and those efforts include building relationships with communities in the region.
> 
> ...



Some "shoulder-to-shoulder". We deliver others to take the serious risks. Sweet.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2019)

To be fair, both Team Blue & Team Red governments have _helped_ (offering a ride) w/Op Barkhane in the recent past - not to mention some of the not-always-completely-unmentionables (even if they weren't involved in combat operations).

And it wasn't just Team Red that chose a non-combat option in that part of the world 


Edited to add this from 27 June of this year for a titch of context/scale:


> ... The United States (with almost 10%) and Germany (over 6%) are also strongly committed to Barkhane, as are Canada and Belgium, the French defence ministry said.
> 
> Since 1 January 2019 the United States and Canada have transported 315 tonnes and 43 tonnes respectively of freight, as part of the strategic routes linking France to the Sahel. In comparison, the French Air Force transported 676 tonnes of material over the same period ...


----------



## MarkOttawa (27 Jul 2019)

In other words, after Afghanistan and the Canadian public's and media's (DEATH WATCH!) response, our parties are fatality-shy to the max. And, save for a while vs ISIS in Iraq, the parties don't want to be involved in killing by us or allies.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Jul 2019)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> ... our parties are fatality-shy to the max. And, save for a while vs ISIS in Iraq, the parties don't want to be involved in killing by us or allies.


 :nod:


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Sep 2019)

DND's info-machine:  Aaaaaaand, we're done here ...


> After more than a year of operations in Mali, the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) air task force (ATF) deployed in Gao completed its mission today (31 Aug). An important aspect of Canada’s multi-faceted support included providing critical aeromedical evacuation, logistic and transport capabilities as part of Operation PRESENCE-Mali.
> 
> In July 2018, Canada deployed an ATF composed of 250 CAF members and eight helicopters to Gao, northern Mali as part of MINUSMA, which were essential to the conduct of UN operations in remote and vulnerable areas of the country. Since then, the women and men deployed under Operation PRESENCE-Mali conducted 11 aeromedical evacuations and more than 100 transport missions. Upon ceasing transport aviation tasks on July 31, 2019, Canadian helicopters had transported approximately 2,800 passengers and delivered 370 000 pounds of cargo, over more than 4,000 flying hours.
> 
> ...


Well done all who deployed, and safe travels home to those now shutting things down.


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Sep 2019)

Indeed, well done to all.  Good to see the CH147F complete its first international long-term deployment, where by all accounts if provided gold-standard capability for logistical and forward aeromedical evacuation support. 

Regards
G2G


----------



## dimsum (1 Sep 2019)

Not so fast...



> Canada to send team back to Mali to help Romania minimize gap in evacuation
> 
> The Canadian military plans to send a team back to Mali next month to work with Romanian peacekeepers and minimize a pause in the provision of lifesaving medical evacuations to United Nations and Malian forces and civilians.
> 
> ...



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-mali-romania-1.5263048


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Sep 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Not so fast...
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-mali-romania-1.5263048



Given the force extended previously, this seems like an issue with the replacement force, no?


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Sep 2019)

I'm glad that we appear to be achieving the commanders' intent: 

Trudeau has an excuse to pose in front of some of our troops wearing blue berets in time for the upcoming election. :sarcasm:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (1 Sep 2019)

He did go to Mali;  has he visited any other Ops?  Latvia?  Iraq?  PM Harper was to Kuwait, Afghanistan, Erbil...

BZ to the TacHel folks!


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Sep 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> He did go to Mali;  has he visited any other Ops?  Latvia? (Yup)  Iraq? crickets ...


----------



## Jarnhamar (1 Sep 2019)

Are the Romanians out to lunch or what?


----------



## Sf2 (1 Sep 2019)

No they are not out to lunch.   When Canada took over from DEU, we had the luxury of them still being around to conduct a handover.   We owe it to the Romanians to do the same.


----------



## Good2Golf (1 Sep 2019)

SF2 said:
			
		

> No they are not out to lunch.   When Canada took over from DEU, we had the luxury of them still being around to conduct a handover.   We owe it to the Romanians to do the same.



Absolutely!  Even if just those C-17 chalks and a TAV, but it should be enough for an operationally-capable TOCA.


----------



## MarkOttawa (10 Sep 2019)

Matthew Fisher has some cutting words for the UN and our gov't after a visit to Op PRESENCE--excerpts:



> Canadian Peacekeepers returning home from Mali feeling under utilized
> ...
> Gao, Mali – Canada has developed a leading-edge medevac capability for the Mali peacekeeping mission that may have out-performed that of the legendary U.S. Army Black Hawk medevac crews who saved so many lives in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Canadians’ airborne ambulance can deal with more casualties at once than the Americans can and have the wounded treated by emergency room doctors while on their way to a military hospital in the rear.
> 
> ...



Ouch.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Sep 2019)

> To the Canadians’ chagrin, *the UN usually called out a private Swiss air ambulance service* that it had hired. *Even when the Canadians were asked for help, it could take hours to get all the necessary administrative approvals from the UN.*This made a mockery of the military medicine term, “the golden hour”. The term means that about 60 minutes is the maximum amount of time to get a patient to hospital to have a chance to save his or her life.




I'm super surprised to hear this.


----------



## Cloud Cover (15 Oct 2019)

lowering the flag on this one: https://twitter.com/CFOperations/status/1184166959824457728?s=20


----------



## MarkOttawa (12 Feb 2020)

Now seems Donald Trump wants to downsize US' efforts in Africa, with probably negative effects for France's combat Op BARKHANE in Sahel--a post:



> Looks Like Trump Moving to Lessen US Support for France's Anti-Jihadi Op BARKHANE in Sahel
> https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/02/12/looks-like-trump-moving-to-lessen-us-support-for-frances-anti-jihadi-op-barkhane-in-sahel/



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## CBH99 (12 Feb 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I'm super surprised to hear this.



Me too.  Being that we were there as part of the UN mission, it surprises me the crews had to wait up to 5hrs to get the UN's permission to assist UN peacekeepers.  Unreal.


----------



## MarkOttawa (13 Feb 2020)

See at the "UPDATE" at the bottom of the post at the link below what the UK, Denmark and Estonia (all stalwarts in Afghanistan too) are doing to help France's combat Op Barkhane in the Sahel--deployments that Justin Trudeau's gov't would not even consider:
https://mark3ds.wordpress.com/2020/02/12/looks-like-trump-moving-to-lessen-us-support-for-frances-anti-jihadi-op-barkhane-in-sahel/

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## GR66 (18 Aug 2020)

The BBC is reporting that mutinying soldiers have seized the President of Mali and his Prime Minister:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-53825673

Not a good sign for any chance at stabilizing the situation there.


----------



## Weinie (18 Aug 2020)

The French will sort this out rather quickly, I would suggest.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Aug 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> The French will sort this out rather quickly, I would suggest.



Unless they sponsored the coup ....  :nod:


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Aug 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Unless they sponsored the coup ....  :nod:



In which case it will be sorted out quickly.


----------



## Old Sweat (20 Aug 2020)

There still are a few Canadians in Bamako, serving in the UN HQ.


----------



## medicineman (20 Aug 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Unless they sponsored the coup ....  :nod:



That would never happen  : 8).

MM


----------



## Edward Campbell (28 Aug 2020)

My _*guess*_ and that's all it is, is that France is most of the problem and not any part of the solution to the multiple problems in North West Africa.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (28 Aug 2020)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> My _*guess*_ and that's all it is, is that France is most of the problem and not any part of the solution to the multiple problems in North West Africa.



Pacte Coloniale.  The resources in the former French colonies belong to France, they own them.  The message has been sent to others many times:

"If you try and harm our interests, expect consequences"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-21923624


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Sep 2020)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> My _*guess*_ and that's all it is, is that France is most of the problem and not any part of the solution to the multiple problems in North West Africa.



There's a reason it's called the French _Foreign _Legion, and not the French _Domestic _Legion


----------



## CBH99 (7 Sep 2020)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m79judCh2rc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycikhGkhNzI


I know these clips above aren't related to Mali.

But there was discussion further up in the thread about participating in UN operations in Mali.


I thought I would post these as the Portugese seem to have found a nice balance between supporting UN operations, and actually being useful.


----------



## OceanBonfire (31 Mar 2022)

Extended through March 2023:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1509713394601009155





						Canada renews two international military missions supporting international security and stability - Canada.ca
					

In today’s global security environment, the Government of Canada understands the critical importance of continuing to contribute to multinational operations around the world to support international stability and security




					www.canada.ca


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