# Has anyone had anything stolen?



## gorf (5 Nov 2004)

I am wondering if anyone (I know that not a lot of people do and I hate to think that they are in the military but.........) has ever had anything stolen from them. I was just thinking that I could have the odd "personal" kit and such that might be a little better or more expensive.........but what if it is stolen?   ( :-[   :'(   Anyway I was just wondering if it happens at all before I brought something special and "lost" it. 

Again I hate to think that those kind of people would be in the Canadian military! 

*If this is in the wrong section feel free to move it.*


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## pbi (5 Nov 2004)

I assume you are referring to issued items of kit.

First of all, if you think somebody stole an item of kit, report it immediately to your chain of command-they may tell you to make an MP report. Then, make sure you fill out a Loss and Damage Report, as soon as possible. Too often soldiers leave this part for weeks or months.

Once you have done the LDR, a decision will be taken to write off the loss (rarely...) or make you pay for some or all of the loss if your own negligence can be shown to have contributed to the loss. Examples of negligence are leaving kit lying about, loaning it to others, leaving it in your car (a car is not considered secure) or putting in a locker with no lock.

The resolution of the LDR proceeds separately from any MP investigation, although the chain of command can hold off on a decision until they see the results of the MP investigation, or of any trial proceeding that might follow. Cheers.


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## GerryCan (6 Nov 2004)

Believe it or not, there are thieves in the army. I haven't heard of too much issued kit being stolen, but it happens. 
I do know that when I went on tour, our shacks got robbed countless times, even some of my own stuff got stolen. I'm not sure if any of the stuff was recovered, I know mine wasn't and I doubt I'll ever hear anything from the MP's.


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## NavyGrunt (6 Nov 2004)

Yup actually i've had Kit stolen from me in one form or another everytime I stayed in Nelles block in Esquimault......EVERYTIME.  :threat:
No matter the precautions I take. Its a matter of life in transient quarters...


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## QORvanweert (6 Nov 2004)

HA! if you think that is bad, try having an entire course on the parade square with all their kit because somebody stole some troop's helmet.. the day he got it issued...and then aside from two hours less sleep and some PT to motivate us, the bloody thing was never found and Pte. Bloggins now owes the CF 350+ dollars..


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## Bob the builder (6 Nov 2004)

Ill be heading to the surplus store and trying to find a cheap half-shelter because mine went missing on the last ex.  Worst part is I know the sergeant that picked it up, He just hasn't shown up in over a month, and now i have to get a new half-shelter before this comming ex.  Come to think of it, he might be from a different unit.  Just my luck.


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## Gayson (7 Nov 2004)

I had a pair of inner gloves stolen from me on a winter ex one time.  I ended up having to make due with my black outers only.

I really hate lending kit out to people, and when I do it is only to guys I have known for a while or parade with (that way I can track them down easily when I need the kit back).  I absolutely hate people who have no regard for peoples kit that they use and fuck it up.

On my last ex on a friday night it was dark, my battle buddy and I got our sleeping kit mixed up when we were told to move our shit about 20 feet (I picked up his, he grabbed mine).  When I got in bed I noticed their was no liner in the bag and reliezed we wre sleeping in eachothers bag, no big deal.  The next night I finally got to go to bed at 4am after patrolling for 20 hours on about 1 hour of sleep, I try to climb into my sleeping bag to find the guy the night before had untied some of my liner straps fucking the whole thing up and didn't tell me.  I am a firm believer in people setting up the kit they it is best for them, it makes things easier and more convienent.  It really was not such a big deal that my liner was fucked up except that it was frustrating to have to fuck around with my own kit when I was cold and tired after a long day because some asshat didn't have the common curtousy to tell me that they fucked around with my kit the night before.   :threat:


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## Evocatus (7 Nov 2004)

While it may be overlooked while one "expedites" _surpluse kit_ from "the system" per say (read Base Supply/QM/RQ/CQ) it is a grevious sin to steal issued kit from ones peers  .  While we are to some extent a reflection of society and thus do have some bad apples in our ranks, Theives should & must be routed out and have thier asses kicked severly  . In my experience, there are many ways to to deal with these types (informally), however, I personally always preferred to see them delt with formally, in the venue of an orders parade.

Thievery from ones peers, is a charge that generally is delt with quite severly. While one eventually recovers from most transgressions, this omission is pretty hard to recover ones dignity and respect from.

In my younger days, it was respectable to have liberated kit form the system, so that when Johnny Young Private lost his mukoluks, or had them stolen, "the boys" could reach into the ole battle box and replace them before the Sgt's Major caught wind of it.


....cheers..... Evocatus.


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## dutchie (7 Nov 2004)

I have never had any kit stolen (touch wood). I follow these rules given to me (not all at once) by my Section Commanders on basic:

1. Keep your kit secure and keep an eye on it. If you can lock it up, do it. 
2. The messier your kit is, the easier it is to steal. Another good reason to keep the kit explosions to an absolute minimum.
3. Mark/label all your kit with your name and last three numbers of your SN.
4. Don't take unnecesary kit into the field. The less kit you have, the less likely you are to have it stolen.
5. Limit the amount of 'Gucci Kit' you own. Shiny things grow legs really quickly.
6. Report theft of kit only when you are sure it has actually been stolen. Check with section/platoon mates and your brain first. Your a big blade if you put your platoon through a kit search because you left your Gerber at the chow hall. Once you know it has been stolen, report it to your Chain immediately.


I find that courses are the worst for theft. Once you get to your unit, you shouldn't have any trouble at all.


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## gun plumber (7 Nov 2004)

I've only had a little bit of  kit swiped in my carrer and it all boils down to one thing....
Was it my fault? Yes. I did'nt do enough to prevent the theft,ergo I'm responsable for it.
Suck it up,take the pay deduction and make sure it does'nt happened again. Learn from your mistakes and carry on.


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## meni0n (7 Nov 2004)

Only had one thing stolen. It was a strange story. Arrive to basic (In shilo it was comm res ), was with french platoon on first day, they do kit inspection till 2am and take anything sharp from everyone which includes gerbers. Next day I got transfered to the english platoon and you know how it is first 3 weeks you're busy and I didn't really need it and I thought hey they took it so it's in a safe place. BMQ finishes and SQ starts I ask my section ic to ask the french instructors for my gerber back. Well apperantely they put the box with the gerbers into the room where they kept all of the platoon's civvie bags and clothes. They told they distributed the gerbers back and needles to say my gerber wasn't there. Lost report was supposed to come from shilo to unit but never did so I just bought a new gerber. And the morale of the story is, is that I hate the french platoon  ;D


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## wang (7 Nov 2004)

Moderator edit: Wang I'll be in touch.


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## chrisf (8 Nov 2004)

I've been missing a pair of combat pants for a while now, and I'm thinking they were stolen by my father, who's own combat pants are far to large for him, so he often borrows mine. Come to think of it, I really ought to ask for them back.

Other then that, I've never had anything stolen. Or lost for that matter. Why not? I take care of my kit. 

If I loan it to somone, unless I trust them quite well, I always make sure the kit is returned to me as soon as possible.

If I leave a room, I lock the room. If I have roomates, I lock my locker.

Very importantly, I also make sure I *know* what I have, and how much I have.


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## atticus (8 Nov 2004)

The only problem I've ever had with theft is on course. In the reserves, gerbers seems to grow legs much more than anything else (since on my course only about 2 out of five had gerbers issued). Acually to think of it the only thing that I have ever heard of being out right stolen while in the reserves is gerbers. Anything else stolen was either civvie stuff or that it was taken by mistake.


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## Gryphon (8 Nov 2004)

Yeah, i had pretty much the same problem as meni0n.. 'cept i eventually got it back because the pl sgt and I are from the same unit 

otherwise, the worst that i've had so far is mix ups of shirts or socks in the laundry (on my 5s we were 2 to a room and we'd do laundry together at times)

In the field, nothing really has been stolen, but i've had "Reallocation of Kit" from the QM (nothing major tho, KFS, FMP pads.. small, write offable kit) and this was usually when I was on support, and the QM came back with more stuff than it started off with...


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## Pikache (8 Nov 2004)

Caesar's advice is sound, though even in unit, you have bad apples. (Though they do get find out eventually and get sorted out)

I hate thieves and liars.  How the heck are you suppose to go to battle with someone you cannot put your trust with?


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## Griswald DME (8 Nov 2004)

You should be engraving your gerbers.  If your unit doesn't have an engraver head to your local police station, most lend out engravers for free.


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## atticus (9 Nov 2004)

Griswald said:
			
		

> You should be engraving your gerbers.   If your unit doesn't have an engraver head to your local police station, most lend out engravers for free.



Really? I didn't know we were allowed to do that! Wouldn't you have to pay for the gerber if you did that?


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## bossi (9 Nov 2004)

Yup - I've had things stolen from me on civvy street, too - not just in the Army.  Poop happens, and then you have to buy a new pair of goalie pads ... and be more careful.

Trying to find a silver lining ... I figure the guy who stole my lightweight binoculars on my Combat Team Commander's Course figured they were a good piece of kit, so it was flattering that he stole mine and not a pair of "issue" bino's.

It brings up a good point:  If you use equipment issued to you by the Army, it can be replaced by the Army when it's lost.  However, when you use anything you purchased yourself, you're on your own if you lose it (a slight logistical problem when you're several thousand miles away from the place you bought it ...).  Food for thought.


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## gorf (9 Nov 2004)

Cool......well not really. I guess I will just keep my privately obtained kit at home (well the more expensive stuff anyway), that way I don't lose to much money. It is really to bad things are this way....but then I guess things would get to easy ;D Anyway....I will be sure to report it if anyone takes anything     :threat:   BTW I still have one more test (Physical test push-ups etc.) before I get in, but I am really looking forward to my new job/life   :warstory:.


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## Acorn (9 Nov 2004)

Gorf, the topic is about stolen kit. You asked the question, so inevitably the answers would be almost all positive. Many of us have never has stuff stolen.

Don't assume it's commonplace. It isn't, and if you're careful you'll never have a problem.

Bossi's point about logistics is a good one as well. If you have your own binos/GPS/multi-tool in Kabul, and it's lost, stolen or breaks, you ain't going to get a new one. Try to rely on the kit the Queen provides, and consider any personal stuff as both nice-to-have-but-not-critical and expendable.

Acorn


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## Cliffy433 (17 Nov 2004)

Well, I too have been lucky... with the exception of a few pairs of socks in Section laundry (where else but on course?) I have only ever lost items.  Yep.  Lost.  I fully accept responsibility for losses.

I know people who've had stuff "stolen", "borrowed not returned", etc and it sucks. (or so I'm told)

So I guess I'm just repeating previous posts: One soldier (notice the gender neutral PC terminology) one kit.  Label your kit, and keep a grip on it.  You'll thank us all later.

tlm.


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## gorf (17 Nov 2004)

Thanks, I'm sure I will be thanking you...I don't get in untill January for my co-op.....should be good times  :warstory: I will be sure to mark all my equipment. I was just asking as a precaution....to prevent something from happening. Thanks for all the replies.....it was a great help for me and possibly others to prevent this from happening. I'll be marking my stuff, lock it up if possible/or not let the stuff out of sight. Mmmmm.........hopefully I'm not becoming paranoid like my mother  :


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## Gryphon (18 Nov 2004)

that you should anyways do... good habit to get into.. even if not for the thefts, but rather for the fact that everyone's kit looks exactly the same...


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## someguyincanada (19 Nov 2004)

While I was in borden, i had a palm pilot and laptop stolen from my locker, it was locked up and all someone came into my room and cut the lock and took only those two items. now i know not to take anything to borden thats shiny. the mps said it was my fault for not securing the locker even thou it was locked and the cut lock was on the floor  :rage: if i ever come across the guy who stole it, there will be a long discussion and walk to the mp shack


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## LCISTech227 (22 Nov 2004)

While I was in Kingston on my LCIS Tech course (like 2 years long with POET), someone crawled in through my window and stole my Laptop.  When the MPs came, they told me that the Window should have been closed and locked.  When I told him that CFSCE has a policy that all windows will be open at the set height, etc, etc. he said too bad, the window should have been locked.  I then went through the long and tiring battle with the school and the MP's for someone to take responsibility for the directive for the windows being open.  Now, I understand that the fault is my own.  I became too lax and should have put the damn thing in my car or whatever.   After the MP's finally agreed to the situation, they then said "I hope you have insurance".  What the hell does that mean?  I'll tell you what it means... They were unwilling to do anything about it.  During my time in Kingston like 6 computers were stolen out of my building,  and still they didn't think that it warranted an investigation.  Perhaps, I'm missing something, but after 6 computer have been stolen wouldn't this indicate a problem that needs to be rectified?

Ah well lesson learned,  on my end, anyways.  Other then that instance I've never lost or had taken from me anything else.

Cheers.


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## Long in the tooth (25 Nov 2004)

Believe it or not, a few weeks ago I was in the shower at the gym after morning PT.  While in there, some sorry SOB stole my razor and shaving cream!  Anything that moves can be stolen, but I refuse to go through life being paranoid.


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## mygosh (25 Nov 2004)

ya i had a mag stolen in the cleaning room and another guy had 3 mags go missing in the cleaning room an cleaning kits went missing like mad once again from the cleaning room


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## Ammogod (25 Nov 2004)

Once when I was a younger trooper, I had a chance to fly back from Germany to Pet for a curling bonspeil, I had 900 Cdn in my wallet, we where staying in the transit barracks, and I put some jeans in the washer, I didn't notice I had left my wallet in the jeans when I returned to put them in the dryer, my wallet was on the floor minus the 900, expensive leason to learn.


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## chrisf (25 Nov 2004)

mygosh said:
			
		

> ya i had a mag stolen in the cleaning room and another guy had 3 mags go missing in the cleaning room an cleaning kits went missing like mad once again from the cleaning room



It's one thing to loose issue kit, particularly shiny bits, another thing to loose personal things, but if you can't keep your hands on your weapon/mags, there's a problem.


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## atticus (25 Nov 2004)

Ammogod said:
			
		

> Once when I was a younger trooper, I had a chance to fly back from Germany to Pet for a curling bonspeil, I had 900 Cdn in my wallet, we where staying in the transit barracks, and I put some jeans in the washer, I didn't notice I had left my wallet in the jeans when I returned to put them in the dryer, my wallet was on the floor minus the 900, expensive leason to learn.



I remember my unit getting a talk (well, the younger half) about what to do if we found a wallet with a thousand dollars in it. It was kinda like SHARP training, making us think more about about our actions and how they can affect people around us.


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## Big Foot (26 Nov 2004)

This is one instance where TDV fits in. Why you would steal from someone you live/work with is beyond me.


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## Yes Man (28 Nov 2004)

I would say that 99% of all things that go missing in the army do so because of mix ups.  This happens alot and most of the time it can be sorted out within a few days (ie just asking everyone who was there to check).


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## Blunt Object (29 Nov 2004)

I've herad stories about RCR guys who've had thier hands broken over stuff that's been "mis-placed". Teres also been guys who've "slipped" down a flight of stairs


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## atticus (29 Nov 2004)

Blunt Object said:
			
		

> I've herad stories about RCR guys who've had thier hands broken over stuff that's been "mis-placed". Teres also been guys who've "slipped" down a flight of stairs



What? If people are getting that mad over something that was an accident they don't belong in the army.


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## QORvanweert (3 Mar 2005)

Blunt Object said:
			
		

> I've herad stories about RCR guys who've had thier hands broken over stuff that's been "mis-placed". Teres also been guys who've "slipped" down a flight of stairs


Please clarify. Do you mean by misplaced that they forgot it or that they stole it and later tried to justify it by saying it was there by accident?


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## 1feral1 (3 Mar 2005)

I have had a few occasions.

Summer 1980 Dundurn: I took my Army watch off for a shower, set it down onm the bench, showered, and left. Not even 2 mins later I went back to get it, and it was gone. I asked the ONLY guy there if he had seen it, he said no. I shook his towel out, and there it was. Theif busted. He copped some abuse from me or that, and again was NEVER to be trusted. I still have that watch, and yes, it works.

Summer 1981 Dundurn: After some field time, I had a shower and as I returned to my bunk, a LOSER was removing my water bottle w/carrier off my 1964 ptrn webbing. Caught red handed, and in a scuffle ( I was naked and that alone was bad enough -haha), one of his shoes came off, of which I proceeded to beat him about the head with it til he begged for mercy. He was branded a thief and shamed. There was a few witnesses, so the word spread quickly.

Summer 1983 Dundurn: After leaving my webbing in the back of a 74 Ptrn Jeep for a short (at our own biv in the field) I had a knife (one of those German kinives with 6" blade in OD metal scabbard w/leather OD scabbard) stolen off my webbing. Yes, the Maggot had to remove all the velcro bits (1964 Ptrn) remove the scabbard, and put it all back together again. I was pissed off. Never recovered it, but found a replacement.

The thief was one of us (we knew that), a fellow staff member from an SYEP course. $900 was stolen from another staff member, which brought in the SIU from the Jaw. it was never recovered, but after that summer the maggot was caught stealing someones wallet oout of their locker, and that finished him. I had later found out he sold my knife to someone else.

Since then, I have not had a single thing lifted.

So even if your stuff is secure, it aint.


Cheers,

Wes


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## Redeye (4 Mar 2005)

Big Foot said:
			
		

> This is one instance where TDV fits in. Why you would steal from someone you live/work with is beyond me.



I thought the unofficial RMC motto was "Trust me with your life, not your money or your wife."



Some guys I knew on course always used to say that.  Of course I don't actually believe any of us should think that way.


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## nawk (4 Mar 2005)

I had a maglite in my TV. On an exercise I pulled it out to use and for some reason it wouldn't turn on.  I then noticed that the bottom parrt was missing.  Someone had unscrewed my maglite, took out the batteries and put the maglite back in my TV.  Needless to say, I was pissed.


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## c_canuk (4 Mar 2005)

I've had a couple gerbers go missing, about 1 every 2 years...

I lost one in the field... was fixing the zipper in my combat jaket and set it on a rock, reached for it 30 seconds later and it was gone... 

lost another out of my truck... you'd think that the back of a Rad Van would be secure, but appearantly people were sent in there to scrounge for working kit, and found it.

and I left one in the laundry room in M5 this past summer at ARCON in Gagetown we had an hour do do some laundry after being in the feild for 10 days... and in the rush to get in and out I misplaced it...

I've lost other inconsequential stuff like the odd tshirt or a set of cbt glove outers/inners... but you can get another set for a few bucks at the local surplus store... 

Kit is going to go missing, whether you loose it, someone picks it up thinking it's theirs, or steals it... so make sure you keep an eye on your expensive stuff and don't sweat the small stuff.


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## atticus (4 Mar 2005)

I remember on my BMQ this guy in my section kept loosing his gerber and always told people it was stolen. Every time it was found. One time in the shower after he had a shower (when he wasn't sapposed to be showering too), one time on his bed, another time in his locker, and a bunch of different places. It was always found by the same MCpl too. I have no idea how you'd loose your gerber in the shower. It was a big open group shower too! What the heck would he have it in there for. Apparantly he even lost the canister (I forget what it's called) for the gasmask and went into the gashut without one and went running out, half suffocated!


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## Sh0rtbUs (4 Mar 2005)

On our SQ, one of the Cadets stole a friend of mines boots..thats right, his boots. He never did get them back, but he learned never to forget kit in the lockers.


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## old medic (4 Mar 2005)

There's lots who'll steal credit for your hard work.  ;D


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## big bad john (4 Mar 2005)

My virginity.


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## Pieman (4 Mar 2005)

> My virginity.


LOL! Did that really get stolen? Maybe you just forgot it somewhere.   ^-^


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## big bad john (4 Mar 2005)

I was really waiting for someone else to say it.  But it was too easy to pass up.


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## c_canuk (4 Mar 2005)

buggers! did they get your innocence too?


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## big_johnson1 (4 Mar 2005)

I had a guy switch his fleece with mine once on tour. When his was issued, apparently it was too small. So he decided to take mine and leave his for me. It was interesting to put mine on one morning (after I'd been wearing it for months) and find that suddenly the thing wouldn't zip up and the sleeves were four inches too short. Good thing when they were issued the supply techs noted the sizes as well as the NSN. Maybe it was a mistake but I kinda doubt it. Taught me to label everything.


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## Tucker.D (4 Mar 2005)

I accidentally stole some combat pants once. I got home from weekend BMQ and found out that I had one more pair than I took with me. I must have mistaken them for mine when I was packing up. They weren't labeled and when I took them back the next weekend asking if anyone was missing a pair no one claimed them. It didn't really matter in the end though since everyone got CADPAT a few weeks later anyway.


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## QORvanweert (4 Mar 2005)

I have had a few towels switched on me in the showers, I probably possess the CF's largest collection of face cloths


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## atticus (4 Mar 2005)

Oh man, I accidently stole a towel after showering once. It was one of those army ones they issue you that feel like sandpaper. I just got out of the shower and I grabed the towel right where I hung mine, and proceded to dry myself with it, I then realized I had brought my own towel which was a different colour, and it was on the floor. I then put the towel I grabbed back where I found it picked mine up and hightailed it out of there. Never even looked to see whos towel I had. (It was also a group shower so I had many other things on my mind)


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## TCBF (5 Mar 2005)

"(It was also a group shower so I had many other things on my mind)"

And, ...ahhhhh.... just what do you mean by that?


As for stolen kit (28 years worth):
77/78 Combat Gloves - a few pair: Must leave parkas on hooks in hall of B-102!
1979 64 pat web complete:  was a cas on a 1 Cdn Fd Hosp Ex.  Our webbing went into a Paul Bunion.  Gone.  Summer 1980, teaching on the Mattawa plain and I jacked up an OCdt for wearing my webbing.  Had my name on it.  Turns out he bought it at John"I never buy kit from soldiers" 's War Surplus. 
1982- A CF LS shirt in the South  upstairs laundry in F16.
1999- a gerber on Prarie Ram.
2000- A beret and hat badge in Bosnia.
2003- fleese top from the bustle of my Coyote on BTE 03
Pretty much it, more or less.  Maybe some laundry missing from a CFE bag on a FallEx/Reforger.

Now Vehicle kit, that's another nightmare.  You'd never think the Radar Aerial l Head Assy telescope was worth 11, 800 bucks, would you?  Possibly stolen during a kit check.  

Tom


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## ZipperHead (5 Mar 2005)

I am the bane (bain??) of MP's everywhere, as I am one of those type's of people who feel that if you can't trust the people you work with, who can you trust??? I rarely lock my locker at work (during work hours) (I do at the base gym, due to the number of civvies and dependants that go there) and never lock my car while it's on the base (unless I'm at the CANEX, for the same reason as above).

Now,as for what I've had stolen: driver's goggles on my first PCF ('88), my bike from the bike rack outside barracks (lived beside Jr Ranks) and yes, it was unlocked ('91), IPE bag with old steel pot and various other pers kit after an ex, and walked away from kit truck somehow (early 90's), watch from base gym (hanging on curtain that divides courts) (about '01), and possibly my civvie GPS while teaching on course last year (it may have fell off vehicle, but I wonder....).

Not too bad for 17 years ( I was in cadets for 5 years, and 4 summer cadet camps, but my memory fails me from that era). The watch (a $35 Timex) was actually the one that pissed me off more than anything else, probably because it was a co-worker (I'm 99.99% sure who stole it). I wouldn't be so gracious as to say the person was a soldier, because even though all soldiers "steal" to some degree (how many rolls of guntape does anybody need, anyway???? If we had a Guntape Amnesty Day, I'm sure we could fill SkyDome with all those rolls.....) but, a soldier should never, ever steal from another soldier. The individual who I believe stole my watch was charged with theft (rumour has it that at his trial, there were X6 6-ft tables (!!) full of kit ( personal, military, otherwise) that he lifted). Anyway, his sob story was along the lines of he had to because he needed the money because he had been sued, blah,blah,blah..... The whole story would fill about 10 pages, but it still doesn't excuse him for his actions.

To think that there are no thieves in the military is naive, but I don't want to live in fear. A lock only keeps an honest person honest, but there is no point in making it easy for the thieves that are out there: mark your kit clearly, and make it well known that you have a highly infectious, uncurable skin-disease  :-X ...... Just kidding on that last bit, but whatever works.... 

One thing that annoys me, as I think that it has been taught incorrectly at the basic training, or word of mouth, level, is the practice of completely blacking out the previous owners name from a piece of kit. I believe a line striking out the name (so that it is still legible) is sufficient, as otherwise, to me anyways, it indicates that you are trying to hide something (ie that you stole it, and are trying to hide that persons name up). If that's what you do, don't blow a nut, and say that I am accusing you of being a thief. Just think of it from that point of view.

Here's a fairly amusing story about a "theft" (and I'm sure anybody with TI has a similiar one): The scene: the laundry room in O-19 in Petawawa. The players: A reservist cook joining the RCD to go to Cyprus, an MP, soldiers living in. The story: The cook places his laundry into a washing machine, comes back a few hours later to find it missing. MP is called in. He is taking the cook's statement about what was stolen, what happened, etc. A living-in soldier walks in, opens a dryer and says to no-one in particular: "Who's kit is this?". Any guess on whose kit it was (and the first 2 guesses don't count). Anyway, the cook wanted whomever put "his" kit into the dryer charged with theft, as "they" didn't have his permission to do so. The MP closes his notepad and walked away in disgust, and much laughter ensued.....

Al


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## Roger (5 Mar 2005)

I have had quite a few items stolen, it has made me sad to think that your buddy or fellow Armed Forces member would steal from you. And you know who you are, they ahould be kicked out of the forces. The first item was on my recruit course, my jacket was stolen out of my closet, the next item was when I was in transit in Ottawa waiting for a flight to Edmonton, I put my watch and glasses on the top of a locker beside me, I was on the second bunk, when I awoke the watch was gone. In Edmonton when I was out doing PT someone broke into my locker and stole some of my kit. And just last year when away on ex, I returned to my locker that had been brocken into to find most of my civy items gone.

It is sad that in a country like Canada you cannot trust a fellow brother in the forces...


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## Pte. Bloggins (5 Mar 2005)

Haven't ever really had anything stolen, but I always seem to come back from a course with double the amount of grey wool socks I left with.


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## Sig_Des (5 Mar 2005)

D*mn you Bloggins! I always seem to come back froma  course with half the socks I left with! ;D

I find one good practice is, to avoid ****ing buddy, if you find insecure kit lying about, be a pal, hold on to it, try to find out who's it is, and return it, with a little ribbing ensuing.

Otherwise, someone may decide to appropriate it...The exception to this is any weapons component.... If you lose that, somethings definitely not been ingrained in you well enough, and should be done with proper application of a boot :warstory:


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## big_johnson1 (5 Mar 2005)

Ok I remember another good one, although it wasn't stolen by a soldier..

Guy, if you're out there, you should remember this one well.. 

Two duffle bags, Vimy Ridge, both full of beer.. Probably shouldn't have left them alone.. Finding out the hard way that our idea of sleeping under the stars with a ranger blanket didn't work as well without the ranger blanket (especially wearing shorts and tank tops).. Also, no hotels in Vimy, no way to call a cab, and no trains heading back to big cities. Deciding to run back to Arras at 1am (it's like 20km), stopping occasionally to eat barely (yes the raw grain) from the fields because we were "SOOO HUNGRY"... Not surprisingly, no one stopped to pick us up when we tried to hitchhike..

Being quite thankful that the approx $6000 US we had between the two of us, our passports, and our Eurorail passes were in our pockets, not in the duffle bags like our plane tickets were. It took a bit of doing but we managed to get back to Thessaloniki without the plane tickets 

What a way to spend LTA. At least we got back in one piece


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## Edward Campbell (5 Mar 2005)

In my younger days barrack room thieves were regarded as the lowest form of human life and were abused, badly abused.

It was an offence â â€œ worth _extra training_ of some sort or another, which was all NCOs could _award_ - to leave your kit unsecured.   â Å“Locks,â ? one of my recruit instructors used to say, â Å“keep honest men honest.   If you don't lock up your kit you are tempting an honest man and, maybe, destroying him.â ?

Many miles of curb was painted blue, gold and black over many week-ends by young fellows, including me, who forget to lock up their kit.

One of my colleagues, a fellow named Denny Ringland, had his jeep stolen.   We were on the ranges in North Germany (Soltau or Bergen-Hohne, probably) and Denny decided to go to Hamburg (a few pints, a show, maybe get his oil changed).   He called his driver/operator and off they went, in a jeep with two radios.   Then Denny decided that his driver/operator should not wait outside in the cold and rain, etc ... well you know the rest.   A few hours later out they toddle and: no jeep.

Denny was not the most popular officer ever, but I was impressed with the speed and efficacy with which a new jeep was 'acquired' and, especially, with the ability of the radio mechanics in the Sigs Platoon to 'create' two new radios.   Denny still got court-martialed â â€œ severe rep, I think â â€œ but, despite discrepancies in serial numbers, the huge financial penalty which awaited him was avoided.


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## Infanteer (5 Mar 2005)

My Girlfriends Grandfather was telling me a story the other day.  When his unit was getting ready to deploy to Sicily, they had this guy who was not well liked in the Squadron - apparently he had a shady past, didn't get along with others, and seemed to be around when stuff went missing.

Anyways, Grandpa gets wounded when his tank brews up in Sicily.  While in the hospital, he sees this guy come in with his hands mashed to shit.  Apparently, Grandpa's squaddies had caught the guy in the act and decided to deal with it - they held him down and backed a Sherman Tank over his hands....


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## TCBF (5 Mar 2005)

Your girlfriend's grandfather must have been in the 11th, 12, or 14th CAR, (I think the Ont R, Three Rivers Regt, and the Calgary Tanks) of the !st Cdn Army Tk Bde.  My stepfather was in @nd Cdn Lt Fd Amb, witch was part of that bde.  He landed in sicily summer 43.

He too, told a story about getting his kit bag stolen by one of the "smooth" operators in the unit.  No proof.

There is a major at RMC currently writing a history of the 1st Cdn Army Tk Bde.

Tom


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## Sh0rtbUs (6 Mar 2005)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27715.0.html

Boy, has he ever had stuff stolen  ;D 

Sorry, I couldnt help it. It ties in so well...


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## Infanteer (6 Mar 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Your girlfriend's grandfather must have been in the 11th, 12, or 14th CAR, (I think the Ont R, Three Rivers Regt, and the Calgary Tanks) of the !st Cdn Army Tk Bde.   My stepfather was in @nd Cdn Lt Fd Amb, witch was part of that bde.   He landed in sicily summer 43.



Calgary Tanks.

He was wounded in Sicily - pretty bad.   They moved him back to England and were going to send him back to Canada I guess.   He said screw that and somehow joined an Infantry outfit.   He went through Western Europe with the Highland Light Infantry.

Quite a story.


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## TCBF (6 Mar 2005)

Smarty's Story: 

 "I once had My C7 stolen by one of my buddies, he ended up loosing his.   When i asked to give it back he said he had no idea even though i engraved my name on the rifle butt.   Anyway he ended up scratching it off and I got charged.   the army doedoesn'tre really much, it ended up costing me $560 and my buddys in a wheelchair now.   I paralyzed him from the waste down, that was an accident though, we had been drinking on a road trip, but that storys for another time."

OK, troops, we have GOT to get this guy unbanned!   Like, now!   Lookn at all of the quality entertainment we are missing out on!


If he only paid $560 bucks, then he got a good deal - I think the licensing fee we pay Colt for the TDP and the privilege of improving their rifles for them is almost $500 per rifle.

He does know they have serial numbers, right?

Tom


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## QORvanweert (7 Mar 2005)

I think that we should unban him on the condition that he can answer a few simple questions.. ie. What happens when you lose serialized kit? Are Sargeant-Majors scary? and What is JTF2?       I have a feeling his answers would be along the lines of: rifles? mags? nah, I lose them all the time and blame it on my buddies, but of course the army doesn't care that much since they have another 15000(?) of them.  Sargeant-Majors?? those weaklings? I remember back when I was in 'Nam we had way scarier people, hell I would take one of those out in a second.  JTF2? who cares, when I was in luxembourg we had the elite LCBO (lux. croissant beer and operatives) that I happened to be head of.. one day I sat around losing rifles for at least 24 hours non-stop. It was pretty intense.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2005)

> OK, troops, we have GOT to get this guy unbanned!  Like, now!  Lookn at all of the quality entertainment we are missing out on!



Quality of entertainment versus quality of professionalisim on the board.

Speaking of things stolen, I think mr smarties threads have stole precious time from my life  :blotto:


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## eliminator (7 Mar 2005)

There's been cadets here at RMC who have had their swords stolen. In fact, one of my good friends was one of them, but luckily he managed to find out who stole it and it was returned. Recently, they have installed sword lock/holders in all the rooms in my building and during   walk-throughs, unsecured swords will be taken by staff and senior cadets. It's pretty bad when you have to lock everything up solid to go to the bathroom. Also, cadets have had countless mil kit taken from the common storage rooms. It has gotten so bad, that we are not allowed to put our kit in these rooms and have to secure al of our kit in newly issued lockable Rubbermaid containers to go under our beds. Not to mention weekly emails of cadets looking for their stolen headdresses and coats, sometimes gortex, from the mess. Last year, there was a laptop stealing craze, thankfully that has passed.

About 6 weeks ago, the wedge that I just exchanged (a privilage we have till we graduate) was taken from the mess. I was pretty mad, but at least it wasnt my sword....knock on wood.


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## Big Foot (7 Mar 2005)

eliminator, how can we forget about the bar fridge that was stolen earlier in the year?


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## Kat Stevens (7 Mar 2005)

Sounds like the ranks of our future leaders are infested with thieving little bas*ards to me.  A little "slipped in the shower" justice sounds appropriate here...


CHIMO,  Kat


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## Big Foot (7 Mar 2005)

Kat, as with anything else, theres a few bad apples in the bunch. I have been lucky enough to not have had any kit stolen. As eliminator mentioned though, it is pretty bad that we see so many emails pertaining to stolen kit. Sad that there are thieves here at RMC, but tell me a unit where there is no theft.


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## Kat Stevens (7 Mar 2005)

Understood, but I was led to believe throughout my carreer that the officer corps were held up to a higher standard than us lower life forms.    If a MCpl stole from me, he could expect something bad to happen to him at some point, and maybe a charge.  If an Lt stole from me, he could expect to skate, with his Commisioning Scroll as a shield... poorly worded, but you get my point, I hope

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Sh0rtbUs (7 Mar 2005)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> Speaking of things stolen, I think mr smarties threads have stole precious time from my life  :blotto:



"You took 2 hours of my life and I want them back, oh who am I kidding, I'll just waste them".

I know that our Unit is extremely good with kit. Its to the point where I can pretty much open my duffle on the parade square, leave it there and at the end of Parade night, not even my spare elastics are moved nevermind stolen. It's also driven in that "There are 2 things a Ranger never does, Steal and Lie". I thought it was a futile oath to take as most are surely going to take their own lane, but so far its proven to be extremely effective. Basically, you're very honor is dangling from a wire, and lying and theft is the proverbial blade hovering closely. Ironically, only kit stolen that I know of were a pair of boots left on the lockers by a friend, and it was a Cadet that took them.

(Any Cadets that read this and somehow take offence (such as the case in another thread against G.W) dont bother informing me because I really dont care)


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## QORvanweert (7 Mar 2005)

We have the same level of trust and honesty on our parade nights.... but course is another world entirely....


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2005)

Theives have to be the worse thing you can have in a section/platoon whatever.

Someone is careless and misplaces something of their own, so they take from someone else more careful with their gear. 

I remember being told that the detachable tacvest pocuches were something like 80 or 90 bucks. (A story made up to scare reservists)
We were told first we needed to have the pouchess of our vests (4 in total. 2 worn, 2 spares) turned in with the "$900 vest" before we left bosnia. Then we were told we had to have them in petawawa and turn them in before we were allowed to go home. 

90% of the guys had sent their spare pouches home in their UAB which we wouldn't have access to for in many cases, a month. At first we were told we would have to pay the $90 (per pouch) to get our leave pass. THEN we were told we were not allowed to pay. if we did not have the pouches, then no leave, no going home.

You can see where this is going. Long story short, I had both of my pouches taken off my vest, the contents dumped inside my dufflebag along with my vest. Luckily i was one of the few who didn't send my spare pouches home so i still had 2 to wear on my vest. Others had the same problem, people stealing their tac vest pouches. (We were told NOT to send them home just incase we did have to turn the vests in)

Stupid troops not listening choose to steal instead of owning up for their actions.
One of the worst things IMHO.

If you new guys ever see someone stealing either kick them in the wrist or turn them into the MPs. If they will steal something from someone else, they'll steal it from you.


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## eliminator (7 Mar 2005)

> Sounds like the ranks of our future leaders are infested with thieving little bas*ards to me.  A little "slipped in the shower" justice sounds appropriate here...



I love how people come to conclusions on this forum...

Lets consider the situation at RMC:

1) Civilians pass through out college all the time at any hour of the day. There's lots of cadets here, both guys and gals, who have significant others who are from the civi side.

2)There's lots of NCMs, Officers, and civilian contractors who work here on a daily basis within our dorms and have access to master keys, etc

3) During the summer, this place turns into a transiate haven and a summer training center for sea cadets (who use all of our facilities)

4) Not alot of stealing occurs, it just comes in waves and could definitely be the work of only a couple of individuals.

5) Seems like there has been more expensive stuff going missing lately, mostly in the academic buildings, like artwork and large printers. Almost anyone can stroll though these buildings carelessly.


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## Cloud Cover (7 Mar 2005)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I've been missing a pair of combat pants for a while now .



As long as your pants didn't go missing in action or captured by the opfor...


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## Kat Stevens (7 Mar 2005)

I apologize, very presumptuous of me to form an opinion without all the facts presented to me.  I hereby withdraw my disparagement of these exemplary ladies and gentlemen...

CHIMO,  Kat


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## eliminator (7 Mar 2005)

> I apologize, very presumptuous of me to form an opinion without all the facts presented to me.  I hereby withdraw my disparagement of these exemplary ladies and gentlemen...



 well said


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## ZipperHead (7 Mar 2005)

It's funny, because as I was reading the post ref stealing at RMC, I was thinking exactly what Kat ended up posting. While it is wrong to jump to conclusions, I think it is also wrong to point the finger of blame at:



> 1) Civilians pass through out college all the time at any hour of the day. There's lots of cadets here, both guys and gals, who have significant others who are from the civi side.
> 
> 2)There's lots of NCMs, Officers, and civilian contractors who work here on a daily basis within our dorms and have access to master keys, etc
> 
> 3) During the summer, this place turns into a transiate haven and a summer training center for sea cadets (who use all of our facilities)



Accepting the fact that some of the "upper class" are really no better than the: civilians, NCM's, already trained officers, and sea cadets, just shows that they are human as well. Well, I don't know if you can call thieves human, but the point is made (I hope). 

I think that theft will always occur, but as Kat pointed out, I would like to think that those who will ultimately be in a position of authority over me (ie. my troop leader, OC, CO, etc) can be trusted to not be a thief. One would hope that any officer in training that is caught ( & convicted) is booted out of the CF.

Al

P.S I'm surprised to see that reservists weren't on the hit list of possible thieves: that'll keep them happy.

P.P.S Your emoticon (when you said "well said" to Kat) is saluting with the wrong hand..... sort it out sir ;D


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## Kat Stevens (7 Mar 2005)

While I gladly take my lumps for going off half-cocked, I must pitch in a little adendum here:  In my former beloved regiment, we had plenty of civies in and out all the time, pre 9/11.  However, if personal kit or bigger ticket shinies went missing, the automatic assumption was not that one of the greaseballs had taken the item.  The usual practice was to hoist any troops in the vicinity up by their ankles and shaken until the missing items fell out....

CHIMO,  Kat


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## ZipperHead (7 Mar 2005)

Personally, I think that the average civvy who walks into a military work environment is probably scared shitless of what might happen to them if they got busted stealing military kit (ie a night in a dungeon somewhere). I think that the military relies a little too heavily on the illusion of security (anybody who has been to the VERY permeable base of Gagetown knows what I mean) to keep the average civvy out. If the average ciivvy only knew how easy it would be to make off with some goodies (that might be construed as "baiting" any unwary civvies, so I better watch it.....).

I know in Bosnia, as soon as anything went missing, it was assumed that one of the locals stole it, and if I remember correctly (the 2 beer per day took their toll on my memory....) it was SOP to go into "lockdown" mode and search all the locals on their way out of camp, if anything serious went missing. I would like to think that was more commonsense, than overt racism, but considering that the same thing doesn't happen on a base in Canada (that I've ever been witness to) it makes you wonder.....

Speaking of which (searches by MP's), here's one that just came back to me: I was leaving the North gate (out to Burton) one time, and CFB Gagetown's finest were doing a spot check (oddly enough, the only one I've endured in 17 years..... keep up the diligence guys!!!!!) and I went throught the whole rigamarole: stop the engine, open the trunk, bend over and cough,er forget that one, ok....... Anyway, Barnie Fife saw that I had a pair of issue snowshoes in my trunk, and asked if I had proof on my person that they were mine. "Errr, my name is on them. Is that proof enough?". Redcap: "No!!". One can see from this event that a) "Barney" was never a Combat Arms type, and b) That common sense isn't taught in Borden at the MP school. Anyway, I made it out of this "takedown" ok, but what little respect I had for MP's at that point was lost (and I can't remember ever finding it again.... oh wait, I might have, once I found out they were getting Spec Pay..... no, that was a feeling of disgust....).

Al


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## Cloud Cover (7 Mar 2005)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> oh wait, I might have, once I found out they were getting Spec Pay..... no, that was a feeling of disgust....).



Curiously, I think I know why they get spec pay. Once, when I locked my f%$#ing keys inside my truck, they knew exactly how to break into it without leaving any evidence. Since that time, I've had a lot of respect for them.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Mar 2005)

> 1) Civilians pass through out college all the time at any hour of the day. There's lots of cadets here, both guys and gals, who have significant others who are from the civi side.
> 
> 2)There's lots of NCMs, Officers, and civilian contractors who work here on a daily basis within our dorms and have access to master keys, etc
> 
> 3) During the summer, this place turns into a transiate haven and a summer training center for sea cadets (who use all of our facilities)



Go to either of kingstons army surplus stores and ask the staff about RMC cadets stealing each others kit and trying to sell it there.
It's not fair to say the RMC cadets are the only ones taking shit but speaking to the store staff, they paint a pretty shitty picture when it comes to the cadets selling buddies equipment for a cheap buck.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Mar 2005)

:blotto:


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## eliminator (8 Mar 2005)

> It's funny, because as I was reading the post ref stealing at RMC, I was thinking exactly what Kat ended up posting. While it is wrong to jump to conclusions, I think it is also wrong to point the finger of blame at:



I'm not pointing the finger at anyone, I'm just stating that there's a lot of activity that goes on at the college, which makes it very difficult to pinpoint the source or sources of these thefts.



> Go to either of kingstons army surplus stores and ask the staff about RMC cadets stealing each others kit and trying to sell it there.
> It's not fair to say the RMC cadets are the only ones taking crap but speaking to the store staff, they paint a pretty shitty picture when it comes to the cadets selling buddies equipment for a cheap buck.



oh, ok, So you're saying some cadet walks into the surplus store and says, "Hey, I'm an RMC cadet, and I like to sell the following equipment?" How do you know they're RMC cadets? Are they wearing their college uniform or something? I think if someone was selling stolen gear they'd be a little more stealthy than that. Lets not forget that Kingston is a semi military town. Just cause someone that has a short haircut is selling some random mil kit doesn't mean they're from RMC. Alot of you people on this forum really think we're retarded or something.




> Personally, I think that the average civvy who walks into a military work environment is probably scared shitless of what might happen to them if they got busted stealing military kit (ie a night in a dungeon somewhere)



Ah, no, not here at RMC. There has been Queen's students over the years who have stolen swords here as a "trophies". Again, Kingston is a semi military town, making people not too scared of the military since they see them everywhere. The civis who work here are certainly not afraid of the military. Again, not pointing fingers at them as thieves or anything.


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## Cliffy433 (8 Mar 2005)

Wait, I lied - someone's story above reminded me that I did indeed have something stolen...

On ROTO 7, near the end of the tour, I didn't get my monthly beer card.   As you all know, no beer card = no beer.   So I went to the Coy Clk and asked if it had been printed - it had, and the bundle for HQ and Med staff had been signed for.

I had to get a memo fr my Sgt, addressed to the OC, requesting permission for a new beer card - can't have two you know.   I eventually got a new card, and then, suddenly, as the first planeful of troops went home at end-Tour, the original beer card was found on the ground, with several days punched out - days where I did not have the card in my possession, and volunteered to be on-duty since I couldn't drink anyway.   Days where many people offered me one of their two precious beers because they felt bad about the missing card, and I turned it down, as I had foolishly volunteered to be on-call.

Annoying points:
1. The thief was someone who I'd lived and worked with for 6 months.   Not only that, I had undoubtedly provided some form of medical care - probably Zithro and Cipro in a high dose combo.   If you're reading this, I think you're an A$$, and would love to tell you to your face, you spineless d!nk.

2. The bartender - she knew us all well enough that when someone apparently had extra cards - she'd at least check to see if the name on the other card was someone on leave or on the plane home.   She knew I was in camp and that my card had been stolen.   Yet, still, she punched my card for someone else.   B!tch!

tlm.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Mar 2005)

> oh, ok, So you're saying some cadet walks into the surplus store and says, "Hey, I'm an RMC cadet, and I like to sell the following equipment?" How do you know they're RMC cadets? Are they wearing their college uniform or something? I think if someone was selling stolen gear they'd be a little more stealthy than that. Lets not forget that Kingston is a semi military town. Just cause someone that has a short haircut is selling some random mil kit doesn't mean they're from RMC. Alot of you people on this forum really think we're retarded or something.



When you spend more time in uniform you'll understand. Thats not a slight at your experience compared to mine or anyone elses, it's the simple truth.
In kingston 9 and a half times out of 10 i can tell the difference between a reservists, regular force soldier and RMC cadet simply by how they act and how they talk.  (Thats not in uniform, without any obvious identification) 
You can pick them out at a bar, in the mall or in a dark theater when they are laughing and cracking jokes during the genocide sceens in the beginning of 'The hunted'

Some cadets are stupid enough to wear RMC blazers/jackets etc..   (the same as reserves and reg force are stupid enough to do) They come up with silly excuses.   
"I got issued two and they wont take one back and said i can keep it"
"I quit a few months ago i'm just trying to get rid of some junk i have"

The guys working at the store aren't stupid. They deal with people trying to sell stuff on a day to day basis. I'm sure they can figure a few things out for themselves.
Believe it or not guy, it's REALLY hard to hide the fact that your in the military and even more so when your from RMC.



> I think if someone was selling stolen gear they'd be a little more stealthy than that.


You would also imagine an RMC cadet wouldn't try to bring a pellt gun onto an aircraft right?
People do stupid things, regardless of institution.


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## eliminator (8 Mar 2005)

> You would also imagine an RMC cadet wouldn't try to bring a pellt gun onto an aircraft right?
> People do stupid things, regardless of institution.



That story is pretty amusing in my eyes. It was a first year cadet. I guess that might be one of the disadvantages of breaking up IAP and BOTP into two summers. All the new cadets have only the IAP (Initial Assessment Period). Pretty much how to wear a uniform, mark kit and identify rank structure. It's incidents like the pellet gun one that make me think where they're getting these people from.

I still have a hard time believing that cadets would actually pawn off each others kit at a surplus store. Alot of people wouldn't risk getting caught and the others are just to lazy. Usually if a piece of kit goes missing, it's because someone cant find there's or borrows without asking, with the intend of returning it (which seldom happens).


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## 1feral1 (8 Mar 2005)

I hope when, not if, some thieving maggot is caught red handed, some inside justice ( a la shoe about the head   ;D EDIT: refers to Post 36 - 'take as tongue in cheek') is done instead of doing the PC thing.

Here's to copping a hiding, and then getting chucked out.

DISICPLINE BY EXAMPLE!

Cheers,

Wes


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## ZipperHead (8 Mar 2005)

Wesley, as much as I agree with you about the boot to the head, our N American society has allowed it to get to the point where the perpetrator of a crime has more rights than the victim, and a boot to the head would probably result in one losing more than just a piece of kit (ie lawsuit, reduction in rank, etc). 

The threat of physical violence (or death) as a motivator to stop people from carrying out certain acts (theft, verbal stupidity, murder, etc) has been lost, and I hope that one day it may return. Until then, I'm afraid that there is little to deter people from acting on their impulses.

Al


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## 1feral1 (8 Mar 2005)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> Wesley, as much as I agree with you about the boot to the head, our N American society has allowed it to get to the point where the perpetrator of a crime has more rights than the victim, and a boot to the head would probably result in one losing more than just a piece of kit (ie lawsuit, reduction in rank, etc).
> 
> The threat of physical violence (or death) as a motivator to stop people from carrying out certain acts (theft, verbal stupidity, murder, etc) has been lost, and I hope that one day it may return. Until then, I'm afraid that there is little to deter people from acting on their impulses.
> 
> Al



Mate, I spent the first 35 yrs of my life living in Canada, and my remark about 'shoe vs head' was from a previous post (No. 36) of mine in this thread (where I caught someone red handed, and smacking him in the head with his own shoe which fell off) and was meant 'tongue in cheek'. To leave the impression of kicking someone in the head with boots on for theft is/was NOT my intention.

As in Canada, here in Australia we too have the same style of legal system. Thats what i call it anyways, as there is no longer a justice system. Pretty sad that the crims have more rights than the victims.

Cheers

Wes


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## TCBF (11 Mar 2005)

"Wesley, as much as I agree with you about the boot to the head, our N American society has allowed it to get to the point where the perpetrator of a crime has more rights than the victim, and a boot to the head would probably result in one losing more than just a piece of kit (ie lawsuit, reduction in rank, etc). "

Something just occured to me:

Ever notice that we always assume the guy who commits the crime will get away with it, whereas the guy who commits a crime teaching the guy who commited the crime a lesson will get caught?

Tom


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