# Bringing back the COTC?



## 40below (15 May 2009)

Since we've spent a lot of time arguing about bringing back retired regiments, how about bringing back a nationwide officer training program?



> Citizens take old school approach
> Posted By IAN ELLIOT
> 
> 
> ...




More: 
http://www.thewhig.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=1569320


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## chrisf (15 May 2009)

Sorry, but it sounds to be like nostalgia and a waste of resources...

If you want the military experience while in school, join the reserves. I fail to see what this would offer that the reserves wouldn't offer.

If you want to bring somthing back, bring back the summer youth employment program. It would be a huge boost to recruiting. One of the biggest problems with reserve recruting now is that everyone is terrified that if they join the reserves, they'll be shipped off to afghanistan to die the next day. If recruiters were able to say "Well how about this, you've got the opton of the SYEP, it's a summer job, with no commitments, and if you don't like the army, you walk away at the end" so by the time they're done their basic training, and they realise it's a fantastic job, and realise how wrong their previous misconcepts about it were, then they enroll in the froces.


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## Snakedoc (15 May 2009)

It's an interesting idea, I think the US has a similar program.  I believe this would be something more geared towards the reg force however which would be good for the civie-U ROTP types who arn't required to have much military exposure during the school year.  May be difficult to gain acceptance on some campuses though due to the 'anti-military' culture of some.


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## Jorkapp (15 May 2009)

Sounds kind of similar to ROTC down south.

Given the anti-military culture of some universities, trying to start up some kind of military group on most campuses wouldn't go over too well. The only reason ROTC works down south is due in part to the government more or less forcing universities to have it on campus, or else lose federal funding. We have enough trouble sending recruiting to job fairs without getting attacked, we don't need to start sending students into harm's way. 

Rightfully so, there is ROTP at Civi U's, and local reserve units. If the ROTP types want military exposure, go parade with the unit. If someone at the university wants a taste of the military sans obligation, they can go join the reserves. I don't think we need anything more.


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## ltmaverick25 (15 May 2009)

I think this is an excellent idea.  And to those who say it would be too hard to implement because of the anti military attitude on university campus... Well why do you think they have an anti military attitude in the first place?  Because they are ignorant of the facts and the truth about military life.  There is no accountability to their stupidity of anti military comments because there is no "other side" of the story.

I ran into this alot at school.  In my masters level seminars some idiots would espouse a very anti military attitude and when I challenged them to justify it, they gave me complete nonsence as a responce.  You should see the look of surprise when I inform them that I am in the military and happen to know better and tell them how it really is.  Most of these kids beleive the nonsence they see on TV or through the media.  I think if you give learning minds a dose of reality and exposure to a program like this, either by participating in it themselves, or just knowing others who have will go a long long way to bridge the gap between anti military university kids and the people that defend them on a daily basis.


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## Ex-Dragoon (15 May 2009)

I think the more Universities are exposed to some sort of military presence then eventually I would think the Universities would become more welcoming.


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## daftandbarmy (16 May 2009)

Here's the UK's OTC site. It's very popular there and has been for over a hundred years. 

I seem to remember that we had several Officers in my regiment come through the OTC route and they were generally quite good, especially if you needed a place to crash in Oxford after a night on the town  :blotto:

University Officer Training Corps 

The mission of the UOTC is to develop the leadership potential of selected university students through enjoyable and challenging training in order to communicate the values, ethos and career opportunities of the British Army.

http://www.army.mod.uk/5458.aspx

I enjoyed watching Rob Roy's documentary as well:

http://www.sevenyearproject.com/cotc-disconnected.htm


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## leroi (16 May 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> I think this is an excellent idea.  And to those who say it would be too hard to implement because of the anti military attitude on university campus... Well why do you think they have an anti military attitude in the first place?  Because they are ignorant of the facts and the truth about military life.  There is no accountability to their stupidity of anti military comments because there is no "other side" of the story.
> 
> I ran into this alot at school.  In my masters level seminars some idiots would espouse a very anti military attitude and when I challenged them to justify it, they gave me complete nonsence as a responce.  You should see the look of surprise when I inform them that I am in the military and happen to know better and tell them how it really is.  Most of these kids beleive the nonsence they see on TV or through the media.  I think if you give learning minds a dose of reality and exposure to a program like this, either by participating in it themselves, or just knowing others who have will go a long long way to bridge the gap between anti military university kids and the people that defend them on a daily basis.



As you say, it's a constant battle on campuses for hearts and minds and many students, staff and faculty really have little understanding of the Canadian military, its proud history and present challenges. Sadly, the President of Windsor's statement of a few months ago regarding the Afghan mission (Is it about oil?) is reflective of prevailing attitudes at *some* other universities too.

Reinstating COTC is a good idea and might help prevent some of the radicalization that occurrs on *some* campuses.  (On the other hand, I hope it wouldn't lead to radicalization of the Canadian military ;D)

I believe, the Federal Government would implement COTC on campuses, or a modern version thereof, in a security-threat-all-hands-on-deck type of scenario. Or, they would just take over some of the campuses like they did at Guelph in WWII when the RCAF set up #4 Wireless School. That worked out well and I give some credit to the university president at the time (G.Christie) who was a visionary leader and encouraged everyone to do their part in the war effort.

Instead of closing the school, he struck a bargain with the federal government and DND whereby all enrolled students would volunteer for service. And they did. 

In fact, many of Guelph's benefactor donations, many of Guelph's buildings, can be traced directly or indirectly to veterans and their families and friends: War Memorial Hall: built in 1924 by students who survived WWI for their colleagues who died serving their country in that same war. McLaughlin Library: built in 1968 through Honourary Colonel Samuel McLaughlin's donation.  His Ottawa  Oshawa automotive plant bordered Camp X and I presume his contributions to WW II were many more than is documented. Day Hall was built in memory of WW I veteran, William Henry Day (1870-1938). He was the Commanding Officer at Guelph for the COTC program--256 of his students had enrolled in the Great War by 1915.

I agree with ltmaverick25, a lot of the problem on campuses WRT the perception of the Canadian military is blind ignorance. But  really, that's not a good excuse for any institution promoting excellence in higher learning.

Edit: correction


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## 40below (16 May 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> I ran into this alot at school.  In my masters level seminars some idiots would espouse a very anti military attitude and when I challenged them to justify it, they gave me complete nonsence as a responce.


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## noneck (17 May 2009)

On Friday I watched this documentary on IFC interestingly enough later that night another documentary by the same director on the modern UK OTC was on. Yes on Friday...I have no life!

Both were really well done,  I was impressed by the training level the OTC carried out. I don't think it could hurt to bring the CF back to the campus. Even if a cadet does not go on to the the Regs or PRes they still leave with up to 4 years of foundation knowledge that the take with them through their civvy careers. 

On the UK doc, some very successfull young UK business people stated that they use the people skills, leadership and planning processes taught in the OTC in the business world....who would have thought civvy battle procedure!

Also some of the chicks were hot....in a National Health Dental Plan kinda way. Bring on the Big Book of British Smiles! iper:

Noneck


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## Edward Campbell (17 May 2009)

The old COTC did a few things:

•	Produced officers – primarily, but not exclusively, for the reserve force. There was a specific military training regime – on selected weeknights and on some weekends during the academic year  - that, roughly, covered the same “stuff” as the Military Colleges did in their (few) military training periods;  

•	Kept a visible military presence in Canadian universities. Some (many? most?) COTC contingents had active parade, sports and social programmes that ensured that the military was commonplace; and

•	Provided a conduit through which speakers/lecturers from the Army were invited to campuses to speak on defence policy, etc.

There was, as I recall, a good, healthy rivalry between the Military College cadets and their COTC confreres. One year I recall a summer training graduation parade (Phases II and III) in which (almost?) all the parade appointments (the cadets with the best performance on the various courses) were filled by COTC cadets. I think the RMC types were given a good bollocking for being "beaten" by their _Civvy U_ mates.

There will be a financial bill if this gets off the ground. If my memory serves, I believe we had at least one officer and a couple of senior NCOs at each university COTC contingent. (The university appointment was often given to an OCP officer (no degree) so that he (they are all males back then) could earn a degree while supervising the COTC training.) That may not seem like much but multiply it by a couple of dozen universities and your getting close to a “bill” that equals the officer and senior NCO strength of a small battalion or regiment.


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## Old Sweat (17 May 2009)

The COTC cadets did two training phases at the corps school followed by an attachment to a field unit for a summer as a second lieutenant. This period included a month to six weeks in the weeds on the formation summer concentration. As a serving NCM at the time, I recall that we felt these young gentlemen were a cut below the other subalterns. This was based on observation of them at first hand. I attribute this to the lack of training compared to the ROTP and OCP officers, who did three demanding phases before joining the regiment.

In retrospect, I think that the program was successful in meeting its aim of producing reserve officers for the national mobilization base. Whether that same resource is required today and in the future is moot. They were a product of an era focused on fighting a ground war in Europe in an era without the student loan programs of today and when the ROTP and COTC plans were just about the only federal assistance to post-secondary education. The militia had a much different role in those days and a militia commission was a sought after prize for potential community leaders.


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## brihard (17 May 2009)

Given how much government funding universities get, my response to the 'But we don't WANT soldiers here!!!11!!one!!' excuse would be something along the lines of 'go piss up a rope'.

For for all intents and purposes though, I don't see this filling much of a demand that the reserves can't- and in fact it might draw recruits away form our regiments.

Between the PRes and ROTP, I think we've got things fairly well covered.

This strikes me as a solution seeking a problem.


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## benny88 (18 May 2009)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Given how much government funding universities get, my response to the 'But we don't WANT soldiers here!!!11!!one!!' excuse would be something along the lines of 'go piss up a rope'.



You have no idea how hard it is not to deliver that line at Civvy U somtimes...but overall, the atmosphere is not inhospitable.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jan 2012)

Necrothread bumped with a somewhat incomplete article from a university paper on something like a rejuvenation of the COTC, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._:


> Forms of military service could soon be introduced in Canadian universities and colleges through the Canadian National Leadership Program (CNLP), according to “Answering The Call: The Future Role of Canada’s Primary Reserve,” the Senate’s December 2011 interim report.
> 
> The program is geared towards undergraduates and students enrolled in it would take part in a variety of leadership and military training courses.
> 
> ...


What's not mentioned in the article, but is in the full report (1.1MB PDF, appropriate excerpt attached) is the unanswered question:  who's paying?


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## FSTO (16 Jan 2012)

The RCN had a similar program called the University Naval Training Division that, like the COTC was disbanded in 1968.

http://www.nauticapedia.ca/Articles/Navy_UNTD_history.php


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## Haggis (16 Jan 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Chief of Reserves and Cadets, Rear-Admiral Bennett, advocated the CNLP proposal.
> 
> “There is no question about the value of engaging Canadians in a leadership experience expanding their leadership abilities,” *he* said.



I think it's a stretch to say RAdm Bennet advocates the program.  More like "Hey, that's an interesting idea."  A far cry from *her* saying "Let's do this!"


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## daftandbarmy (16 Jan 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Necrothread bumped with a somewhat incomplete article from a university paper on something like a rejuvenation of the COTC, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._:What's not mentioned in the article, but is in the full report (1.1MB PDF, appropriate excerpt attached) is the unanswered question:  who's paying?



Cool. They could even have an Honourary 2Lt Colonel!  ;D


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## Snakedoc (16 Jan 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Chief of Reserves and Cadets, Rear-Admiral Bennett, advocated the CNLP proposal.
> 
> “There is no question about the value of engaging Canadians in a leadership experience expanding their leadership abilities,” *SHE* said



Fixed that...granted the article authors have never met her but it would have been easy to look up.  There arn't too many female Admiral's in the RCN, but SHE's one of them!


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## The Bread Guy (16 Jan 2012)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Fixed that...granted the article authors have never met her but it would have been easy to look up.  There arn't too many female Admiral's in the RCN, but SHE's one of them!


I guess they didn't read the 3 pages of the report dealing with this closely enough....





> .... Chief of Reserves and Cadets, Rear-Admiral Bennett, told the Committee that *she* has been briefed on the CNLP proposal. There is no question about the value of engaging Canadians in a leadership experience expanding their leadership abilities. Acknowledging that the idea was certainly successful in the past, she added, our greatest challenge remains personnel in order to run, or to add more people to our training systems ....


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## dimsum (26 Jan 2012)

http://www.montrealgazette.com/story_print.html?id=6045401&sponsor=

I may be totally off the mark here, but how is the COTC really any different than joining the PRes, besides publicity while at school?  Parade nights, summer training, etc seems like something that would be done at a Reserve unit.


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## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2012)

> .... the point of a revived COTC would not be train undergraduates to be officers per se, but to give them some military experience and teach them the values that come along with military training.
> 
> And that is the real problem I have with this idea.
> 
> ...


oncampus.macleans.ca, 31 Jan 12


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## daftandbarmy (1 Feb 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> oncampus.macleans.ca, 31 Jan 12



Of course.... I forgot that long list of dancers who have made huge contributions to the economy and society as great leaders of major institutions that are doing very important things on a daily basis with billions of dollars of taxpayers/shareholders' money.  :


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## The Bread Guy (8 Jul 2013)

From the Info-machine - highlights mine....


> A pilot program to allow people to simultaneously obtain a university degree while also gaining leadership experience in the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) Reserves was announced today by the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence.
> 
> Co-directed by the University of Alberta and the CAF, the four-year Civil Military Leadership Pilot Initiative will serve as a test model for similar program development at other Canadian universities.
> 
> ...


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## JorgSlice (8 Jul 2013)

Nice! Too bad I've passed the Uni Stage of my life


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