# CAP vs. other infantry courses



## 30 for 30 (4 Apr 2008)

Question regarding Common Army Phase:

Can anyone assess whether one leaves this course (9 or so weeks long) with...

A similar level of infantry training to that learned on a reserve pte's inf crse?
A similar level of inf trg to that learned on a regular pte's inf crse?
Neither?

Thanks for any input.


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## medaid (10 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> I say no. CAP candidates do not learn to use the C6, Carl G, M72 or 60mm (which I believe are all part of your DP1 Inf course, reg or reserve). CAP is a very compacted and rushed combination of SQ basics (patrolling, section attacks, C7/C9/Grenade/9mm quals) and PLQ basics (lead a patrol, lead a section attack etc).  Thats the best way to describe it.
> 
> And it's 11 weeks long.



C6 & Carl G are covered at the SQ level for NCMs.


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## Big Foot (10 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> And it's 11 weeks long.


Just a quick little correction, the OIC of CAP stated at RMC MOC Weekend back in March that CAP is now 10 weeks long, and that candidates will be living in a tent city.


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## armyvern (13 Apr 2008)

10 weeks. Tent city. And, oh what a tent city it is building up to be. It's going to be a busy, busy, busy summer around here.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Apr 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> 10 weeks. Tent city. And, oh what a tent city it is building up to be. It's going to be a busy, busy, busy summer around here.



Must be up by the old Range Control gate/water tower is it?


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Apr 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> 10 weeks. Tent city. And, oh what a tent city it is building up to be. It's going to be a busy, busy, busy summer around here.



Wonder where they are going to put it?

I know that CFSME has just expanded its semi-permanent Tent City to make room for the influx of the Reserve Engineer Serials.


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> First a correction to my last post, I spent 11 weeks on CAP.
> 
> ArmyVern, tent city for CAP eh? Last summer I remember a fairly large tent city for all the 'Mo courses, but the CAP courses were in the shacks. Whats the deal?



That would have been only for CFSME, I haven't seen anywhere else on Base Gagetown (proper) that tents are used.


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## armyvern (13 Apr 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Wonder where they are going to put it?
> 
> I know that CFSME has just expanded its semi-permanent Tent City to make room for the influx of the Reserve Engineer Serials.



Have you seen the schedule for this upcoming summer block??

A few hundred more (a lot more hundreds actually) students being run through = more tents required to house the overflow.

If you thought it was a booming canvas city last year --- wait for the metropolis that's coming this year. It'll probably visible from the Space Shuttle. 

NFLD Sapper, LFAA (TC) housed some of their candidates under canvas last year as well IIRC.

Anway, the concrete pads are going down, the water lines are being run ...


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Apr 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Have you seen the schedule for this upcoming summer block??
> 
> A few (a lot more hundreds actually) hundred more students being run through = more tents required to house the overflow.
> 
> ...



Hadn't noticed that Vern as I usually passed right by M-5 and the L-Lines.

Still begs the question where in the hell are they going to set them up to?


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## Redeye (13 Apr 2008)

Other than the fact that it's run by the Infantry School, it's a stretch to call it an infantry course - it really isn't.

So they're going under canvas for the whole summer?!   Wow.  That sucks.  I guess stacking 8 to a room in H-3 just wasn't doing the trick anymore.  Am I ever glad that's behind me - it was still pretty comfy there when I went through!


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## armyvern (13 Apr 2008)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Other than the fact that it's run by the Infantry School, it's a stretch to call it an infantry course - it really isn't.
> 
> So they're going under canvas for the whole summer?!   Wow.  That sucks.  I guess stacking 8 to a room in H-3 just wasn't doing the trick anymore.  Am I ever glad that's behind me - it was still pretty comfy there when I went through!



There'll STILL be students stacked 8/room in students quarters. That's not changing.

Things like this are what happens when one increases *by 150%* the number of students coming through during peak time periods --- with ZERO increase to infrastructure or support resources required to look after them.

I'm quite glad that I will not be amongst those candidates this year, although there are a vast number of people doing huge things to try to accomodate all of them in as comfortable a manner as we possibly can.

I'm actually quite glad that I'm not of the EME type here these days, although we are of the same branch; their VOR rate is going to be phenomenal ... and I'm still not convinced they'll be able to sustain sp in an adequate fashion to ensure viable completion of training for all those going through. The tree limbs here -- are getting pretty heavy and extremely fatigued.


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Apr 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> There'll STILL be students stacked 8/room in students quarters. That's not changing.
> 
> Things like this are what happens when one increases *by 150%* the number of students coming through during peak time periods --- with ZERO increase to infrastructure or support resources required to look after them.
> 
> I'm quite glad that I will not be amongst those candidates this year, although there are a vast number of people doing huge things to try to accomodate all of them in as comfortable a manner as we possibly can.



Hmm... maybe CTC HQ should move out of the H-Lines and construct a new HQ building, that would at least give some more rooms back for courses.  ;D


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## McG (13 Apr 2008)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Other than the fact that it's run by the Infantry School, it's a stretch to call it an infantry course - it really isn't.


There may be a reason that the name changed (6 years + back) from BIOC Ph II to CAP ... and it was a common course for at least a handful of years before the name changed.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> Dropping a week is IMHO a bad idea.


Maybe there will be more _better_ use made of the weekends.


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> How is the base infastructure going to support this summer's trg then? I'm thinking about the mess hall and supply....the current mess hall could BARELY handle the number that were there last summer (lines out the door and around the building) and that was with 2 RCR's shacks being empty (them being overseas and all). They did a superb job feeding everyone, but I'm trying to imagine how they are going to manage with the increase that Vern says is happening plus the fact that this summer 2 RCR's troops are going to be there and they need to eat too (those who live in the shacks).
> 
> And as for supply...again, last summer there were (what appeared to be) big time shortages of field kit for all the courses. C9 parts weren't there, threadbare nuke bags issued in lieu of small packs to those who didn't already have them (90% of the CAP candidates), no replacement tac vests if you broke one, boot/helmet/gas mask/rucks/you name it shortages. Again, supply did a GREAT job with what they had....but how are they going to manage this summer then.
> 
> Aldershot can only absorb so many extra courses.



My 2 cent solutions:

1. Use the flying kitchens and mess tents (might be in short supply this year)

2. Everyone coming for CAP should have everything issued at THEIR supporting Base and not by 3 ASG (well emergency issues not withstanding)


BTW which RCR shacks are you refering too?

If you mean D-27 IIRC it belongs to CTC/3 ASG and not The RCR's eventhough The RCR crest is still up on the shack


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Weekends? What are those? We spent (most, we did get a one or two full weekends off that summer) our friday nights marking time in PT gear + gas masks (nice and sweaty, attracting all the skeeters) until 11pm. Then Saturday morning doing some more Confirmation of Combat Knowledge, the afternoon and Sunday until 4pm was then 'free' to us to clean kit for Sunday night's kit inspections after weapons draw...which went to 11pm again and then back to the weekly grind. IMHO, CAP candidates NEED their weekends to rest and clean kit for the following week.
> 
> I remember last summer, however, that many of the reserve engineer courses didn't get weekends off. They trained 6 days a week, with Sunday off to clean kit.



Umm.... yes and no

Each course had a "Project" to do whether it was build picnic tables for the Maritime Club, constructing a walking trail or improving the demo stands at SW-6.

BTW kit is cleaned every night and NOT just on the weekends.

EDITED TO ADD

This was for the NCM courses not sure on the Officers side of the house.


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## armyvern (13 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> How is the base infastructure going to support this summer's trg then? I'm thinking about the mess hall and supply....the current mess hall could BARELY handle the number that were there last summer (lines out the door and around the building) and that was with 2 RCR's shacks being empty (them being overseas and all). They did a superb job feeding everyone, but I'm trying to imagine how they are going to manage with the increase that Vern says is happening plus the fact that this summer 2 RCR's troops are going to be there and they need to eat too (those who live in the shacks).
> 
> And as for supply...again, last summer there were (what appeared to be) big time shortages of field kit for all the courses. C9 parts weren't there, threadbare nuke bags issued in lieu of small packs to those who didn't already have them (90% of the CAP candidates), no replacement tac vests if you broke one, boot/helmet/gas mask/rucks/you name it shortages. Again, supply did a GREAT job with what they had....but how are they going to manage this summer then.
> 
> Aldershot can only absorb so many extra courses.



We are going to do it by working our asses off and doing the best we can with the resources that we have. That's all we can do. Want to imagine -- just harken back to how this base looked when 2 RCR was still in-house and the rest of the BG was here too training for TF1-07 deployment. There's plenty of remarks in a thread relating to the shittiness of that occurance.

No doubt, we'll be the ones to suffer the bitching that is associated with long lineups for clothing, kit, food etc ... but we'll be doing the very best we can with what we have.

The Army is indeed growing. Well at least the HARD Army is growing. Sadly though, all those huge increases in hard army manning levels which have been witnessed in recent years (with huge growth this year and next forecast) ... did not trickle down.

The Head has grown exponentially, yet somewhere in the process the tail has become neglected and is still manned as a Priority 6 VCDS manning priority rate at year 2000 manning levels. That's pre-9/11 for crying out loud -- and we have not been increased a bit to accomodate for the rest of the Army's huge growth either PY-wise or infrastructure wise. In fact, we've LOST positions here on this base from those Y2K Pri 6 levels.

That's not a choice we made, but it's one we get to deal with --- and we'll do the very best that we can; unfortunately ... we will only be able to sustain that for so long before that tree branch comes crashing to the ground. The CoC is trying hard to get us extra funding to deal with this temporarily (SWE to hire civ staff tempo to assist in the summer etc), but it's going to have to get fixed permanently if the Army wants to continue it's rapid growth. The stress levels on the sp soldiers here and on their families is already strained to it's max.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> IMHO, CAP candidates NEED their weekends to rest and clean kit for the following week.



All training is for war, and war is hell.  There are no weekends off in war, I hope they can handle that.  I have a friend who is a Traf Tech who, the last I heard, was on his 109th straight day of work. ( 12 hours shifts minimum IIRC on his last tour at KAF. )


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## NL_engineer (13 Apr 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Have you seen the schedule for this upcoming summer block??
> 
> A few hundred more (a lot more hundreds actually) students being run through = more tents required to house the overflow.
> 
> ...



Where are they being built?  I have only taken one trip down that way this year, it doesn't look any different then last year.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> No, really?



Maybe if you stop bitching and moaning about how OCdts need weekends off because they have boo-boo's...people will stop pointing out stuff like that out.  And getting all cocky as a 21 year old OCdt on here isn't probably going to help.  But feel free.


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## medaid (13 Apr 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Maybe if you stop bitching and moaning about how OCdts need weekends off because they have boo-boo's...people will stop pointing out stuff like that out.  And getting all cocky as a 21 year old OCdt on here isn't probably going to help.  But feel free.



Want to talk about wars and training? How bout we're not training like we should be fighting? How about the equipment provided for the candidates are often falling apart and even after exchange are still falling apart? 

Sure there's no weekend off in war, but guess what? Training isn't war. You also get HLTA remember? 

Good one on OCdts need weekends off because they have boo-boos. Because YOU have never been injured and had to take time off? Because MCpls, Sgt, Capt, WO, Maj have NEVER been injured during their career that's forced them to take time off? Give me a break. Quit talking out of your ass. 

They cram allot of info into a VERY short amount of time. Often times you don't have enough time to absorb or rest. Why do you think CAP has one of the highest injury and failure rates for courses in the Army? One of, not the highest.


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## Disenchantedsailor (13 Apr 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> My 2 cent solutions:
> 
> 2. Everyone coming for CAP should have everything issued at THEIR supporting Base and not by 3 ASG (well emergency issues not withstanding)



In most cases (emphasis on most) The Schools are thier home units making 3 ASG the supporting supply base (excepting of course the summer serials very RMC and reserve heavy, the nature of the beast)


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## medaid (13 Apr 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> In most cases (emphasis on most) The Schools are thier home units making 3 ASG the supporting supply base (excepting of course the summer serials very RMC and reserve heavy, the nature of the beast)



Most not always, MOST of the time the PRes pers come properly equipped since they belong to "field" units. However, the ROTP students are often under equipped and have to get sorted out there.


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## Disenchantedsailor (13 Apr 2008)

for the most part sorting out of ROTP students kit is the responsability of Base Kingston, aside from the civi U types,


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Apr 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Want to talk about wars and training? How bout we're not training like we should be fighting? How about the equipment provided for the candidates are often falling apart and even after exchange are still falling apart?
> 
> Sure there's no weekend off in war, but guess what? Training isn't war. You also get HLTA remember?
> 
> ...



Please elaborate on how CTC and the rest of Army is not training how we should be fighting or whatever you said.  As far as the equipment falling apart, as long as the guys and gals on the pointy end have the kit, I am not so concerned.  I dealt with it.  WOs' and Sgts and everyone else who are injured suck it up, or pack it in, the same as everyone else.  Injured?  Me?  You bet.  What does that have to do with this thread?  All courses cram alot in as you say.  My Recruit course way back when you were...5 or so was like that, and every course up to and including a 6B course as well.  Are you suggesting that only CAP is 'crammed'?  If so, I would love to load you on one of the old SAIC courses.  Now THAT was crammed, I felt it for those guys.  (They were all Inf MCpls and said it was a HARD course).

All training is for war.  (repeat as necessary)

I am having a hard time taking this serious from a 23 year old who is defending the position of OCdts not having weekends off to clean kit and sleep.  

You didn't convince me.  

Work on it.


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## armyvern (13 Apr 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> In most cases (emphasis on most) The Schools are thier home units making 3 ASG the supporting supply base (excepting of course the summer serials very RMC and reserve heavy, the nature of the beast)



Oh yes ... and don't we here in 3ASG know it.

You didn't bring your Tac Vest with you why!!?? Because you didn't want to carry the weight and figured we'd just give you another?? _Sweet_ --- we see it all.

On a good note though -- at least we managed to convince Saint Jean to allow some of those Army guys they're heading our way to keep their Army kit.

In short --- the good book says YOU will make every effort to get your kit from your home Unit PRIOR to reporting to a training base for course. Guess what this base is? Guess how many hundreds of folks we get in who just say -- "I figured I'd get it here instead, less weight to carry??"

We CAN forecast quantities of kit we are going to require for students coming to us from other parts of the training system --- but we can NOT forecast for stupidiots; stupidiots who take away kit from those who didn't have an ability to get it anywhere else prior to coming here for training.

If you're not posted here -- we are NOT your supporting Home Unit. If you happen to have a posting message to one of those schools as a candidate -- then we ARE your supporting Unit. Every Unit/Base/Whatever who is sending candidates here for training MUST make every attempt to kit those soldiers they are sending us PRIOR to sending them. It's the shortfalls we are supposed to look after, not fully kitting the entireity of them because some other place didn't do their job.


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Apr 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Must be up by the old Range Control gate/water tower is it?



CFSME - Reserve Engineer Training Squadron has their tent city there so I can't see any room for anyone else to use

And now they have expanded to the side next to the water point, so the only place I could see is to knock down all the trailers in the L-Lines and build there.


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## Infanteer (13 Apr 2008)

That's why you should do what I do and just buy all your own kit.... ^-^


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## Disenchantedsailor (14 Apr 2008)

Well put Vern. my supporting base bent over backwards and even performed some magic tricks to try to fully kit me out, some stuff was just impossible to get, and to be fair, I haven't had a need for the winter stormtrooper hood anyway, but I agree some places just aren't doing the job proper, or candidates are too lazy to send stuff CMTT and figure they can just get stuff on 638's when they get here. (I know most of my course tried that)


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Right. And you'd be the first one to sign up for a course that ran 24/7, right? *Whatever, I'm not getting into this now.* You lost my interest in talking to you with the 'OCdt's with boo boos' comment. I know, no one can resist a cheap shot at us. And I'm not being cocky. CAP is a regular old beasting and getting that weekend break is VERY much appreciated. We got few of those (which is fine, we are there to learn and train, not to chase beer bottles all over Freddie) and you can bet they were needed. Anyways, I'm done arguing with you and taking this thread way off track.



It has nothing to do with taking cheap shots.  You are trying to say 'we work too hard on CAP' and I am telling you to give your head a shake.  I have been on, and taught on, courses that ran close to 24/7 at times, so...I think I 'signed up' for that when I joined up.  Didn't  you??

I am not arguing with you.  I am stating my opinion.  Married people argue.  Heck, I haven't even asked you on a date yet!


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Apr 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Oh yes ... and don't we here in 3ASG know it.
> 
> You didn't bring your Tac Vest with you why!!?? Because you didn't want to carry the weight and figured we'd just give you another?? _Sweet_ --- we see it all.
> 
> ...



Once upon a time, candidates were "screened" at the home unit and a checklist was signed off, part of which was the kit list as per the JIs for applicable base/school, and part of the paperwork was a Certified True Copy of mbr's clothing docs.  Atleast then we could verify if the mbr had been issued the kit, and mbr was then instructed to ensure all kit as per the JIs was accounted for *and* serviceable, prior to departing for the course, so places like Base Clothing Gagetown wouldn't get swamped with people with "the dog ate my homework" reasons for not having the kit.  Is this, or something like it, not being done now at all??  It worked well, but perhaps has gone by the way-side...


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## scoutfinch (14 Apr 2008)

Let's be perfectly honest here... CAP is challenging but it is certainly not that hard.  You have to work hard but their is nothing academically overwhelming.  And otherwise, you just get beasted for a few weeks.  As I have mentioned here before, I had an awesome time on CAP.  I loved it.  The only reason that people really fail (unless they are colossal screw ups) is because they show up for course in a poor state of fitness.  Besides, given that the course is offered in 2 week mods, every second weekend is off -- at a minimum -- so that new candidates can be received on course.  

When I did CAP in 2006, the only people that recoursed were removed from the course because they showed up unfit.  To be perfectly honest, the only ones that weren't fit were Reservists (before everyone gets their knickers in a twist, read exactly what I said:  not all Reservist were unfit, but those that were recoursed were reservists) which makes sense given that most of the RegF candidates were coming out of RMC or immediately off of BOTP and would have had the opportunity to hone their fitness before arriving on CAP. 

We also had every weekend but the first weekend off.  I can't speak for courses since then but that is how the serials were run in summer 2006.

CAP isn't hard... Ph. 3/Dismounted infantry??? From what I have seen, not having done the course... that is hard.


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## armyvern (14 Apr 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Once upon a time, candidates were "screened" at the home unit and a checklist was signed off, part of which was the kit list as per the JIs for applicable base/school, and part of the paperwork was a Certified True Copy of mbr's clothing docs.  Atleast then we could verify if the mbr had been issued the kit, and mbr was then instructed to ensure all kit as per the JIs was accounted for *and* serviceable, prior to departing for the course, so places like Base Clothing Gagetown wouldn't get swamped with people with "the dog at my homework" reasons for not having the kit.  Is this, or something like it, not being done now at all??  It worked well, but perhaps has gone by the way-side...



The CTC joining instructions still detail that members are to report for training WITH items as per their applicable kitlists. 

member's no longer have to bring "certified true copies" as their clothing docs are now electronic and viewable accross the nation when we need to confirm an issue/non-issue of kit.

That being said:

Ref: CFSM 007 3-13B-002, para 10-11.



> 10. Initial issues of personal allotment items by training base clothing warehouse to individuals undergoing training (excluding transfers)
> a.  Every effort shall be made by the member’s parent unit to ensure that all initial issues of Personal Allotment Kit are satisfied prior to the individual departing on course.
> b.  *If items of Personal Allotment Kit listed in joining instructions cannot be provided prior to departure, the parent base/station/wing shall advise the training base in writing of the member’s kit deficiencies indicating the following information:*
> 
> ...



Eerily, the ONLY base who notifies us of the details they are required to as per para 10b above when they can't kit a member prior to them coming on course ... is Halifax.


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Apr 2008)

So the rumours aren't true.  Something DOES go right in Halifax!   ;D


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## Disenchantedsailor (14 Apr 2008)

I must say to Esquimalts defence, my RQ emailed the CQ at the infantry school with my particular list of deficiencies, and it boiled down to either he could issue it or it wasn't really required i.e. storm trooper hat and flak jacket.

aside from that we have had every weekend off (save for this upcoming we're in the field) and all but 2 evenings, 1 for TOET's and the other for some well deserved "corrective trg"


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## JesseWZ (18 Apr 2008)

So for us ROTP guys, we should attempt to get sorted out by our home units. Would I need a loading message for this or can I just go and request items I am supposedly entitled to (Tacvest amongst other things) and just expect to receive them? ( I have no loading message as yet... hence the question)


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## Eye In The Sky (18 Apr 2008)

I will say you *normally* need a copy of the Crse Loading msg before you can start to ask for kit, and make sure you bring a copy of the kit list as per the JIs (Joining Instructions).  Otherewise, the Supp Techs have no confirmation that you have an entitlement to said kit.


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## JesseWZ (18 Apr 2008)

Don't suppose anyone could PM me a copy of the joining instructions that include kitlist (as I have no DIN access and the ULO office just went through an overhaul with postings and whatnot)


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## Loch Sloy! (21 Apr 2008)

> That's why you should do what I do and just buy all your own kit.... Azn



I'm sure THAT would go over well with the course WO. It would probably be a good way to make friends.  Maybe I'll also make up a gillie suit just to show the staff how keen I am... I'll tell them you said it would be okay


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Apr 2008)

Well..having been a Snr NCO on the Army side of the house before, and done the Crse WO job several times, I can say that us old dumb boys and girls do realize that some troops are going to show up without all the kit.  Behind the scenes, we go and talk nicely to the Snr NCOs and WOs in the QMs and our own CQMS/SQMS's to make sure that you do get everything we can get our hands on to make sure you train the way you are supposed to train, so that later you can fight the way you are supposed to fight.  However, it is NOT a perfect world, and neither is war and combat.  Giddy up!


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