# White paper?



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"C. Bryon McLeod" <bryonmcleod@gorge.net>* on *Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:30:17 -0700*
Hi all,
Can anyone tell me about a "white paper" that was to give recommendations on
amalgamation of regiments?  I was under the impression this was to take
place in November and would all but end Canadian / Scottish regiments as we
know them.
Please correct me on any or all myths. :
thanks
Bryon McLeod
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob A." <carversbench@csolve.net>* on *Thu, 24 Aug 2000 02:39:37 -0400*
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob A.
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: White paper?
To Bryon McLeod,
The White paper is just the start really. It is a 62 page document 
written in 1994. This paper lays out the primary obligation of the DND 
and the CF, a review of defence policy, reflections of recommendations 
of a report of the special joint committee on Canada‘s defence policy 
and includes the consensus achieved on the way ahead for multi-purpose, 
combat capable forces of the CF.
  The problem I have encountered after reviewing the paper is that the 
white paper in itself poses more directional instruction than it does 
answer the questions of military personnel.
  To get the answers you are looking for you will need to refer to the 
latest release of the Defence planning guide DPG 2001. This 155 page 
paper I have yet to review but I do have it in front of me now and will 
be happy to provide you with whatever opinions for what they are worth 
and facts that I have when finised. At that time I feel I could also 
better understand what initiatives are being taken that relate more 
directly to the ‘97 White Paper.
  For your own interest I would suggest reading the LFRR land force 
reserve restructure Sitreps that are available on their web site by 
L.General Jeffery. These sitreps are a communication tool used by the 
General to keep interested parties up to date after his cross country 
tour and visits with key of reserve personnel.

I will compile a list of web sites if you wish that will lead you to a 
wealth of information on these topics and the papers themselves.
Right now though I have a short vacation with the kids to prepare for 
and have run out of time. I‘ll be able to respond on Tuesday if you want 
that list of sites.
Have a good weekend ,
Rob Ayres
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--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob A." <carversbench@csolve.net>* on *Thu, 24 Aug 2000 02:37:19 -0400*
To Bryon McLeod,
The White paper is just the start really. It is a 62 page document 
written in 1994. This paper lays out the primary obligation of the DND 
and the CF, a review of defence policy, reflections of recommendations 
of a report of the special joint committee on Canada‘s defence policy 
and includes the consensus achieved on the way ahead for multi-purpose, 
combat capable forces of the CF.
  The problem I have encountered after reviewing the paper is that the 
white paper in itself poses more directional instruction than it does 
answer the questions of military personnel.
  To get the answers you are looking for you will need to refer to the 
latest release of the Defence planning guide DPG 2001. This 155 page 
paper I have yet to review but I do have it in front of me now and will 
be happy to provide you with whatever opinions for what they are worth 
and facts that I have when finised. At that time I feel I could also 
better understand what initiatives are being taken that relate more 
directly to the ‘97 White Paper.
  For your own interest I would suggest reading the LFRR land force 
reserve restructure Sitreps that are available on their web site by 
L.General Jeffery. These sitreps are a communication tool used by the 
General to keep interested parties up to date after his cross country 
tour and visits with key of reserve personnel.

I will compile a list of web sites if you wish that will lead you to a 
wealth of information on these topics and the papers themselves.
Right now though I have a short vacation with the kids to prepare for 
and have run out of time. I‘ll be able to respond on Tuesday if you want 
that list of sites.
Have a good weekend ,
Rob Ayres
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:19:28 -0700*
>Can anyone tell me about a "white paper" that was to give recommendations on
amalgamation of regiments?
I have heard this rumour before.  Until I hear otherwise, I am regarding it as
"myth".  The closest thing to reality which matches it is a separate initiative
undertaken by the infantry branch to consider amalgamating battalions which
share armouries.  If this were to happen, I think only 2 armouries total of 4
units in all of Canada would be affected.
Brad Sallows
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 23 Aug 2000 16:46:36 -0600*
Brad from Ian Edwards:
Your number 4 units is a tad short. The RWpgR and Camerons of C share
one armoury, the CH of O and the GGFG another, ditto the RHLI and the
ASHofC another, not to mention several in Toronto and several in
Montreal. All of us incl Honoraries should be watching how well in
practice the system is evolving with the Brit TA: they now have numbered
infy bns with each coy retaining their old badges  customs, etc. Quite
a change from the old system that closely resembled our own except that
TA infy bns were at the 350-450 strength not 100 as is often the case
here. Quite a downsizing under the Labour Government, but I thought I
heard talk that the TA was to bounce back again recalling that they
were reduced to "cadres" about 1970 and this foolishness was eventually
cancelled..
I understand that our Class A service is limited to 35 days per year?
And members no longer permitted to volunteer time for anything,
including regimental duties, assisting cadets, etc. When I was "in" it
was 60 days per year. Considering summer stand-down, 35 days is about a
half day per week! Sedentary Militia of the 1820-1855 period, next thing
you know soldiers will be required to supply their own rifes.
I presume that the HLCol new to this net has read the Reserves 2000
report copy somewhere on the internet. And now that Jeffries has gone
on to bigger and better things how does that leave the restructuring of
the Reserves? Marking time? Pigeon-holed? "Well, we need to study it
again/some more..."
Bradley Sallows wrote:
> 
> >Can anyone tell me about a "white paper" that was to give recommendations on
> amalgamation of regiments?
> 
> I have heard this rumour before.  Until I hear otherwise, I am regarding it as
> "myth".  The closest thing to reality which matches it is a separate initiative
> undertaken by the infantry branch to consider amalgamating battalions which
> share armouries.  If this were to happen, I think only 2 armouries total of 4
> units in all of Canada would be affected.
> 
> Brad Sallows
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:58:58 -0700*
Ian,
Good thing you clarified.  Of the ones you named, 3 are highland if I infer
correctly, which may have generated the rumour of highland units being
eliminated.
The funding and direction we received this year indicates units are to make _at
least_ 38 days of Class A available to each soldier ie. the money has been
allocated and we are expected to put it on the armoury floor.
With 38 funded days, one can make an active enough training calendar - busy
enough that I know some people will feel the strain.
I know of no restriction on voluntary work, except that I suspect one is no
longer allowed to sign a "voluntary" paysheet in the hopes it might become
"funded" if there is money left over at the end of the year.  There is also a
strong contraindication for doing anything voluntarily which carries any risk of
injury.  I estimate that I put in equal parts of unpaid time and paid time.  If
there is a hole in funding, it‘s a failure to adequately recognize the true
administrative burden.  One can‘t perform the duties of a Class A staff position
or prepare a weekend exercise using only weekly evening parades, unless the
duties are spread thin among a multitude of officers and NCOs.
>And now that Jeffries has gone on to bigger and better things how does that
leave the restructuring of the Reserves?
I haven‘t seen anything that has absolved him of that responsibility.  Arguably
the army has the most problems to resolve, so he has a bigger stake in it now
than ever.
Brad Sallows
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 24 Aug 2000 05:13:15 GMT*
I don‘t have the Canforgen reference Bradley, but I do know that a couple of 
years ago, direction was handed down that ‘voluntary‘ duties of any kind 
were not allowed If I remember correctly, they did stress the potential for 
injury and non-coverage.
As we all know, this is almost unworkable... especially if you are going to 
try to do work parade nights that need someone to liase with our Regular 
Force brethren who of course don‘t work Wednesday night.
Thank goodness I work for a retired Lt. Colonel who is amazingly relaxed 
about me doing Reserve stuff on work time within reason of course.
But, by the book, we are not supposed to use volunteer time in the 
reserves...
Steve
>From: "Bradley Sallows" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: White paper?
>Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:58:58 -0700
>
>
>
>Ian,
>
>Good thing you clarified.  Of the ones you named, 3 are highland if I 
>infer
>correctly, which may have generated the rumour of highland units being
>eliminated.
>
>The funding and direction we received this year indicates units are to make 
>_at
>least_ 38 days of Class A available to each soldier ie. the money has been
>allocated and we are expected to put it on the armoury floor.
>
>With 38 funded days, one can make an active enough training calendar - busy
>enough that I know some people will feel the strain.
>
>I know of no restriction on voluntary work, except that I suspect one is no
>longer allowed to sign a "voluntary" paysheet in the hopes it might become
>"funded" if there is money left over at the end of the year.  There is also 
>a
>strong contraindication for doing anything voluntarily which carries any 
>risk of
>injury.  I estimate that I put in equal parts of unpaid time and paid time. 
>  If
>there is a hole in funding, it‘s a failure to adequately recognize the true
>administrative burden.  One can‘t perform the duties of a Class A staff 
>position
>or prepare a weekend exercise using only weekly evening parades, unless the
>duties are spread thin among a multitude of officers and NCOs.
>
> >And now that Jeffries has gone on to bigger and better things how does 
>that
>leave the restructuring of the Reserves?
>
>I haven‘t seen anything that has absolved him of that responsibility.  
>Arguably
>the army has the most problems to resolve, so he has a bigger stake in it 
>now
>than ever.
>
>Brad Sallows
>
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:20:41 -0600*
I don‘t think it was a White Paper as governmental "White Paper‘s" lay
out Government Policy for Strategic Decision making ie the 1993 White
Paper on Defence.  I haven‘t seen or heard anything lately about LFRR
that gets into the specifics of amalgamation of units.  I haven‘t seen
anything from LGen Jeffries either.  Anyone have information on his
proposals to the MND?  Call me cynical but I think it will simply be
another knife to the jugular vein of the Reserves!  
"C. Bryon McLeod" wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Can anyone tell me about a "white paper" that was to give recommendations on
> amalgamation of regiments?  I was under the impression this was to take
> place in November and would all but end Canadian / Scottish regiments as we
> know them.
> 
> Please correct me on any or all myths. :
> 
> thanks
> 
> Bryon McLeod
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:39:56 -0700*
>LGen Jeffries
This seems to be a common error.  LGen Jeffery is the correct name.
Brad
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Thu, 24 Aug 2000 12:45:37 -0600*
Sorry, I should know better.  I worked for MGen Jeffries and LGen
Jeffery is a gunner as well.  Sloppy post on my part.
Bradley Sallows wrote:
> 
> >LGen Jeffries
> 
> This seems to be a common error.  LGen Jeffery is the correct name.
> 
> Brad
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:50:39 -0700*
>I haven‘t seen or heard anything lately about LFRR that gets into the specifics
of amalgamation of units.
I don‘t think there have been any specifics yet.  During the LFRR unit
evaluation cycle, a few independent initiatives were floated regarding
amalgamations, reroling, and so forth.  I think one or two actually came to
fruition eg. didn‘t the Elgin Regiment rerole to engineers?.  It seems these
ideas provided grist for many rumours.
They were undoubtedly all well-intentioned, but units seeking solutions at the
lowest level to ensure survival aren‘t likely to be consonant with force
rationalization.
Brad
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Thu, 24 Aug 2000 13:29:01 -0600*
Bradley Sallows and all others:
Whether it‘s 38 days or 35 as I thought it was, all the same. I think
there is a danger that one will take the number of days available and
say "what can we best make of the time available" rather than say "what
do we need to do". When you take out the compulsory and very important
Militia Training Centre exercises sorry, can‘t recall the exact name -
been too long out of the system used to rate unit efficiencies and also
reduce by a week‘s unit concentration in summer if that‘s still Class A
and certainly it is still a good thing to have that doesn‘t leave much
time during the rest of the year. On average, about a half day a week:
well one has to be really dedicated at age 17-20 when there are Macjobs
out there that will give one more "hours".
I think the whole question for HCol Dwyer must start with what is our CF
needed for, and that is a question that must be answered by External
Affairs. Hopefully, Axworthy‘s replacement next week/month will not have
such a Pollyanna approach to Canada‘s role in the world. From there one
should back the review down to what role is needed to be filled and can
best be filled by the PRes and then decide what changes are needed.
Elimination of highland units? I‘ve heard that paranoia for decades.
What counts is are they up to snuff today. The highland accoutrements
are not really provided "at public expense". If units are to be
eliminated Ottawa will, unfortunately, take the easy route of basing the
cuts on "seniority" or war service WW2 especially, as the many vets
still alive all vote. It has been said before on this notice board but
now some time ago that problem is not that we have highland units I
was a officer in one once, and still very proud of my old Regiment even
tho it has had several decades of hard times but that the "mix" of
units with varying customs and traditions does not relect Canada‘s
changed cultural mozaic. Put bluntly, some would ask, why highland
Scottish units but none representative of the Indian subcontinent or
eastern Asia, etc? Yes, I know the answers: history, the old moziac,
etc. Hellyer and crew tried to answer this question by changing
"colourful" regiments/units into bland ones, eliminating distinctive
badges read Brit. wannabe‘s and all. Why not create a regiment if
there is a geographic and organizational need for it and call it The
Chinese Hussars and that could be Brad‘s vaunted mobile bath unit :   I
could go out to Vancouver and raise such a battaion between breakfast
and lunch. One could go to Mississauga, population of at least half a
million probably more, and raise, what, an Alpini regiment as unless I
am mistaken there isn‘t a PRes unit within a full day‘s march of that
portion of the new Toronto which perhaps has one too many highland
regiments.
I think Steve K. confirmed my understanding about not being able to
volunteer time. Actually, I had heard the word from members of his own
regiment but wonder if this is a case of one intrepretation for one
brigade group and a different intrepretation/enforcement for another? In
today‘s Dilbert cartoon there is an employee who asks to be taken from
full time to part time employment. The boss says, yes provided she is
still available for rush projects etc. Dilbert tells the employee she
has just, in effect, taken a 50 cut in pay per hour. Well, that‘s
reality on civy street not counting unionized jobs. One works to
accomplish the job not count the hours, and it is DISGRACEFUL if
soldiers, particularly Sr NCOs and Officers in the PRes, are not allowed
to volunteer "time" to accomplish what is needed and forget any legal bs
about liability.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:33:12 -0700*
>I think there is a danger that one will take the number of days available and
say "what can we best make of the time available" rather than say "what do we
need to do".
This is difficult to do, unless the person drafting the training plan is obtuse.
Direction is clear, and consists essentially of: "These are the measurable
standards the soldiers and the unit must achieve."  "This is the number of
effective soldiers you are expected to have."  "This is the money you are
allocated."  "These are your mandatory activities."  "Can you achieve this?  If
not, how can problems be mitigated?"  There are also, of course, priorities with
regard to level and focus of training.
The 38 days of which I speak includes the MTSC evaluations, but not an annual
concentration monies are skimmed off at a number of levels to provide for
activities controlled at higher levels such as concentrations, summer courses,
etc - 38 days is what precipitates out to the unit.
The important thing to remember is that the number 38 assumes 100
participation.  Thus for example, if a unit has an average 70 turnout for
parades and other events, that extends the total number of planned days to about
54.  Assuming 42 weekly evening parades half-days, excluding summer and
Christmas, there are 33 planned days left for weekend training days and
exercises.  One training day and one weekend 2-1/2 day exercise each month for
10 months totals 35 days - and I don‘t know many units that have 10 field
exercises in one year.  For this example, which I think is a reasonable
reflection of reality for some units, 38 funded days seems adequate.
In short, in my estimation the current funding level is adequate to provide for
an active, meaningful training year.  Other than funding, the other major
limitation is the number of days in a year reservists are prepared to devote.
I, for example, find my upper level of comfort to be about 45 total half plus
full days in a year.
Also, the funding formula in part includes a rough estimate of the number of
days a unit requires to prepare for its evaluations.  Presumably a unit tasked
to achieve standards for which the recommended number of preparation days
exceeds its allocation has a good argument for an increased allocation or
reduction in standards.
>I think the whole question for HCol Dwyer must start with what is our CF needed
for
For those with time on their hands, web access, and a free download of Adobe
Acrobat 4.0, the Board of Inquiry - Croatia testimonies may be fascinating
reading on a number of levels:
 http://www.dnd.ca/boi/engraph/testimony_e.asp 
Regarding volunteer time, I think those in positions of responsibility have
always had to put in uncompensated hours to get the job done.  I consider this
different from the practice, when I was a private and corporal, of having
"voluntary" weekly parades most, if not all, of which were paid out
eventually.
Brad Sallows
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:56:48 GMT*
As is normal Bradley... we are on the same net.  Lord knows all of us do a 
lot of ‘volunteer‘ time and just keep our mouths shut to the ‘adults‘.
Steve K
>I think Steve K. confirmed my understanding about not being able to
>volunteer time. Actually, I had heard the word from members of his own
>regiment but wonder if this is a case of one intrepretation for one
>brigade group and a different intrepretation/enforcement for another? In
>today‘s Dilbert cartoon there is an employee who asks to be taken from
>full time to part time employment. The boss says, yes provided she is
>still available for rush projects etc. Dilbert tells the employee she
>has just, in effect, taken a 50 cut in pay per hour. Well, that‘s
>reality on civy street not counting unionized jobs. One works to
>accomplish the job not count the hours, and it is DISGRACEFUL if
>soldiers, particularly Sr NCOs and Officers in the PRes, are not allowed
>to volunteer "time" to accomplish what is needed and forget any legal bs
>about liability.
________________________________________________________________________
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Fri, 25 Aug 2000 12:12:09 -0700*
If you have ever been involved with a reservist injured while on "paid"
time, you would understand the nightmare if they are injured
while"volunteering".  Our gov. tries to weasel and evade proper compensation
and/or rehab for regulars injured in the line of duty, they jump through
amazing hoops to delay/avoid/refuse reservists in the same situation.
----- Original Message -----
"> >I think Steve K. confirmed my understanding about not being able to
> >volunteer time. Actually, I had heard the word from members of his own
> >regiment but wonder if this is a case of one intrepretation for one
> >brigade group and a different intrepretation/enforcement for another? In
> >today‘s Dilbert cartoon there is an employee who asks to be taken from
> >full time to part time employment. The boss says, yes provided she is
> >still available for rush projects etc. Dilbert tells the employee she
> >has just, in effect, taken a 50 cut in pay per hour. Well, that‘s
> >reality on civy street not counting unionized jobs. One works to
> >accomplish the job not count the hours, and it is DISGRACEFUL if
> >soldiers, particularly Sr NCOs and Officers in the PRes, are not allowed
> >to volunteer "time" to accomplish what is needed and forget any legal bs
> >about liability."
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com 
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@psphalifax.ns.ca>* on *Sat, 26 Aug 2000 00:07:40 -0400*
----- Original Message -----
From: dave 
To: 
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: White paper?
> If you have ever been involved with a reservist injured while on "paid"
> time, you would understand the nightmare if they are injured
> while"volunteering".  Our gov. tries to weasel and evade proper
compensation
> and/or rehab for regulars injured in the line of duty, they jump through
> amazing hoops to delay/avoid/refuse reservists in the same situation.
This is not necessarily a fair interpretation. The form which records
injuries and figures prominently in compensation and disability pension
claims, the "CF 98", has a very prominent question: "Was the member on
duty?" It is equally poorly handled by the Regular Force - a poor accident
investigation can, 20 years later, hamper or reduce a soldier‘s eligibility
for compensation because the board concentrates on this  piece of paper.
Unfortunately, for the Reserve soldier, the bureaucracy only considers
him/her to be "on duty" when the pay sheet has been signed for class "A"
time". Perhaps what is really need is an open realization that Reserve
Force soldiers do volunteer time, and an equally open acknowledgement that
this commitment is as deserving of recognition for benefits other than pay
as paid time.
Mike
regimentalrogue.tripod.com
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Sat, 26 Aug 2000 08:11:44 -0700*
I agree Mike, they should acknowledge that reservist‘s put in extra hours
too.  It is taken for granted that regs will bring work home, come in to
work on the weekend, and put in the time required to prepare and complete
taskings.  They should allow a reservist to put in as much time as is
needed, but get paid for the time allowed.
A reg is on paid time 24/7, but on duty less than thatunless on exercise or
deployment.  so maybe a distinction between"paid time" and "volunteer time"
should be taken into account for a reservist.
As someone said earlier, the whole concept of the reserves needs to be
redefined and a specific mission statementor several drafted.  something
that is real, flexible and enduring.  It could focus on people, not high
tech.  Get back to the basics, rebuild each reservist as  soldier, then have
him specialize.  If they want to make res. units into support based trades,
then they wil have to also ensure they are trained to a proficient level of
infantry skills.  they will then be able to augment the reg units thay are
on constant deployment.
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