# MP's to start as Private, not Corporal... ?



## bishop (4 Jun 2006)

Hey guys, sorry if this has been posted before.

I've been hearing that MP's might be starting as Privates instead of Corporals. Could anyone confirm/deny this?

Thanks


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## Kat Stevens (4 Jun 2006)

When did there stop being MP privates?  In my younger days I was registered as a weekend guest at the guardshack by privates a few times. :-[


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## kincanucks (4 Jun 2006)

bishop said:
			
		

> Hey guys, sorry if this has been posted before.
> 
> I've been hearing that MP's might be starting as Privates instead of Corporals. Could anyone confirm/deny this?
> 
> Thanks



From where and who and are you in the CF?


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## Cyr (15 Jun 2006)

To ansewer your quest, Yes Mp's are private's during basic training in  St. Jean. At your graduation you are promoted to Corporal. But that also doesn't mean that just because you now have the rank that you can let it go to your head either. Besides now that you have this rank you are held to a higher standard than a private to. It's kinda like a double edged sword.


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## Kurhaus (5 Jul 2006)

I have some more news on this subject.  I visited the Academy last month and apparently many changes to the trade are currently being discussed at the senior level (CWO, Maj, LCol).  One of these proposals included scraping the automatic Cpl rank for MP QL3 graduates and getting back to having the troops work their way up.  There is nothing definite yet on this issue but as MP graduates no longer get spec pay until they are QL5 qualified, the "Pte" rank would be a logical step.


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## S McKee (16 Jul 2006)

I for one think the insta-Cpl was a very very bad idea, simply because these new Cpls were eligible for promotion to MCpl much too soon. No experience , no time to season as it were. If you start as a Pte, as I did back in the day, you had 4 years to get used to the system then after your promotion to Cpl another number of years of experience before becoming a leader. I remember when I got my first stripe it was great, and my promotion to Cpl meant something. The insta-Cpl took out 4 good years of experience. It's about time we go back to basics. If I had my way, anyone with less than 4 years in, would be demoted back to Pte.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Jul 2006)

I want to know why they are promoted on BMQ grad. Why don't they have to wait like everyone else? After proper training a Pte can write a ticket like a Sgt, under the same authority. So why are MP's so special?


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## Bert (16 Jul 2006)

Theres a few older threads on insta-corporals and advanced promotion.  However,
the CF ties salaries to the rank.  As a recruiting tool to attract applicants, semi-skilled 
recruits may be given advanced CF educational status comparable to civy pay.  From
2000 to 2004, the CF tried to quickly increase the trained numbers of many critically 
staffed MOCs.  Theres alot of perspectives on the issue.  Being from a unit having
insta-corporals and members who went through the training system, the tempo
of operations, trade courses, exercises, deployable readiness training, and 
scrutiny from the CoC, evens things out quickly.


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Jul 2006)

That's neither a reason or an excuse. The fact is, that they have no greater bearing on their trade than anyone else, they should spend the time, like the rest. Being an MP isn't rocket science. There is absolutley nothing, that make them special.


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## George Wallace (16 Jul 2006)

NewCenturion said:
			
		

> I for one think the insta-Cpl was a very very bad idea, simply because these new Cpls were eligible for promotion to MCpl much too soon. No experience , no time to season as it were. If you start as a Pte, as I did back in the day, you had 4 years to get used to the system then after your promotion to Cpl another number of years of experience before becoming a leader. I remember when I got my first stripe it was great, and my promotion to Cpl meant something. The insta-Cpl took out 4 good years of experience. It's about time we go back to basics. If I had my way, anyone with less than 4 years in, would be demoted back to Pte.



I agree with you for the most part.  I don't think that the 'instant Cpl' gave them that much more of an advantage for promotion to MCpl than they would have had before.  They would still have to have shown the potential to be put on the Crse. 

As I understand it the 'political logic' to bring about these 'instant Cpl's' was that someone in high places felt that MP's below the rank of Cpl/MCpl were not getting the 'respect' that a LEO should get in the military hierarchy and performance of their duties.  That was before Spec Pay was approved, if I recall correctly.  

As I see it "instant Cpl's" took away even more 'respect' for their rank, as now everyone in the CF knew that MP Cpl's could be FNGs right out of Borden and totally FUBAR.  No longer did the members of the CF look at a MP Cpl as someone who had at least a few years of experience.  I think the whole Trade suffered from this decision.  It lowered the respect they got.

It is also a discriminatory act towards all members of the CF to promote one Trade, which also has Spec Pay, in such a manner.  

Put it back.  Civilian LEO's start at the bottom and work without any problems through the ranks.  What makes MP's so different?

A MP is a MP, no matter what rank.  Sure a Pte has less experience than a Cpl, and so it should be.  Don't try and confuse the Courts of Law and Public Opinion, with an experienced Cpl and an inexperienced Cpl, or you will denigrate the whole Trade.   At least if a Pte makes a mistake it is understandable and more supervision and training can be done to rectify it.  A Cpl will become expected to have the experience and knowledge and will become lost in the myriad of other Cpl's, some with, and some without, that knowledge and experience.  Not what I concider a good thing.  

It was a big mistake for the Security Branch to bring about this policy.


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## ZipperHead (16 Jul 2006)

I'm not sure that this isn't comparing apples and oranges, but didn't people entering as qualified musicians do this very thing (get promoted to Cpl at the end of Basic)?? I know that musicians aren't the brunt of unabashed hatred by all (most?) members of the CF like MP's are, so maybe people didn't give a rats ass that somebody banging away on a drum at a grad parade or Mess dinner that was wearing 2 bananas may have only had 2 years of service, but the guy/girl writing out the ticket for you doing 52 km/h in a 50 km/h zone with the same amount of time in would instantly be worthy of our scorn. 

Backtracking somewhat to "the day", MP's had to have been members of the Combat Arm's, and then OT'ed over to the trade. Hence, there were never (or perhaps only rarely) MP's that were Pte's, as they would have had to have a minimum of 3 years in the Cbt Arms (to be eligible for LOTP) and then the training would have brought them up to the 4 years "insta-Corporal" (which I think is bone stupid as it is, but a competely separate thread/rant). Then that all changed, thanks to (from my understanding anyways) the blessed Human Rights business, as women didn't have to go through the Combat Arms hoops (they weren't allowed to be in the Cbt Arms, granted, but that is only a technicality) and could direct enter the MP trade, so men were allowed to do the same. Again, this is based on my understanding of what happened, so I am no doubt out to lunch. If I am out of 'er, please advise.

I personally think that it was a bad idea to get rid of the need to have gone through the Cbt Arms (or at least any other trade) before one could become an MP, as I believe one definitely needs to have experienced military life without the red hat before strapping said headgear on. I think a little perspective is needed before being able to do a job such as that. One of the best MP's that I have ever met was a RCR before he went MP, and he definitely seemed to have his head screwed on right (no elevated sense of importance). 

Al


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## Hoover (16 Jul 2006)

Well, with a job like the MPs do they have to include every recruiting incentive to get new boots in the trade. Friggin Johhny Nomates!!!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Jul 2006)

What is it with the "inflated ego's" thing that is running rampant here?

Is your idea of an inflated ego because sometimes they must be the fun police? I admit, I've been out a long time but the MP's that I remember from 8 years in Pet. were not "inflated egos". I admit not always wishing they were around lots of times but guess what, I was in the wrong, and still did not spend a night there in the bucket.
Does the "Duty NCO" have an inflated ego also when he has to come over to help clear out the JR mess? I've done that many nights and also been ushered out many nights,.....no harm, no foul, just doing the part of the big machine that needs done.


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## canadianblue (16 Jul 2006)

> A short comparison to the RCMP, whom I've heard more than one meathead lord himself over owing to the lessened training period in Regina (6 months at Depot vs. 6 months at CFMPA + BMQ).  Mounties undergo more stringent recruiting processes and are not paid during their stay at Depot and are not guaranteed employment upon its completion; people are found unsuitable for police work after doing all the police training.  This is not the same as PEP.  Upon completion of Depot and accepted into the Force, Mounties are qualified up to investigator; this may not be feasible for MP's given their requirements to perform military functions.  The physical standards for Mounties are considerably greater than MP's; given the levels of fitness in the CF it would make sense to have elevated PT standards for MP's instead of getting 6.0 to pass a Cooper's test.  Mounties are paid less initially and given less leave time -- at $43,428 they're paid just more than Pte 3 ($42,672) for their first three years of service and get 15 days annual leave until five years' service.
> 
> I've always called the MP's Make Police.



Then again the MP's also don't have OT, and assuming they don't go up in rank their pay grade stays the same unless they go on tours. As for the physical level in the MP's, I hear theirs problems in the whole CF with regards to members not keeping physically fit. I've always found that the MP's were very professional whenever dealing with members of the CF, and haven't really noticed much of an "inflated ego". But then again I've never really gotten into any trouble with the law so.


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## Groucho (16 Jul 2006)

The reason Canadian MP start as CPL (after training)  dates back in time to the Monkeys ( ouch the RMPs) in the British Army being LCPLs after finishing training! This is so they have some rank as PTEs can not arrest anybody!!


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## Inspir (16 Jul 2006)

I thought the reason MP's start as Corporal was the qualify for specialist 1 pay. I know it was not always this way as I remember the old man being a private as an MP back in Chatham.


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## George Wallace (16 Jul 2006)

Groucho said:
			
		

> The reason Canadian MP start as CPL (after training)  dates back in time to the Monkeys ( ouch the RMPs) in the British Army being LCPLs after finishing training! This is so they have some rank as PTEs can not arrest anybody!!



Groucho

Do you even know what a LCpl is?  It sure isn't Cpl.  The new MP policy of promoting recruits to Cpl only started in the last five years.  Anyone OTing into MP from another Trade would likely have been demoted to Cpl on the OT and that is not what we are getting on about.  We are talking about "Recruits" right off the street, being promoted Cpl on completion of their Trades training as a MP in Borden.  A Cpl with less than 1 year in the Army in some cases.  

Bruce

Times have changed since you got out.  All those MPs who had remustered from other Trades were then, now we have newbies with no military time in.  And Duty NCOs are not the same either.  No longer will you find them doing duties in the Coriano or Kyrenia Clubs.  They have almost just turned into after duty phone orderlies - almost.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Jul 2006)

Thanks George.


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## S McKee (18 Jul 2006)

The reason MPs were granted Cpl rank on completion of trades training was to compete with the starting salaries of the civilian police forces. Second the spec pay issue; while it irks the hell out of some people, they do require higher educational standards not "rocket science" as someone said but still 2 more years of schooling than you need to be in most other trades. Third, I'm  glad to read that there are so many friggin experts on the RCMP and the MP trade. There is a MP Sgt training RCMP recruits in Regina now, so don't tell me we're the make police or some other bullshit, MPs have for the past 3 years been training and acting as crse directors for Canada's finest. RCMP members are not trained to the level of investigator after depot. That's why they teach a major crime investigator crse at the Canadian Police College (RCMP), I've had the course along with several others and I've been seconded to a RCMP GIS/Major Crimes Unit as an MP (given RCMP Constable status).  MPs while most you hate to admit it (and I've heard every bloody bad MP story out there so forget about posting it) are just as highly trained and professional as the rest of the CF....anymore questions? (RANT OFF)


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## canadianblue (18 Jul 2006)

I've never seen a problem with the MP's they seemed to do their job just as professionally as any other civie police service, if not more. Usually the people that have a hate on for MP's hate civilian police just as much.


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## KevinB (18 Jul 2006)

Sigs Guy said:
			
		

> I've never seen a problem with the MP's they seemed to do their job just as professionally as any other civie police service, if not more. Usually the people that have a hate on for MP's hate civilian police just as much.



Nope -- I hate MP's - I have a lot of real cop friends


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## FastEddy (18 Jul 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Nope -- I hate MP's - I have a lot of real cop friends




I just bet you do, especially if your the Pizza Delivery Guy.


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## garb811 (18 Jul 2006)

Ahh...nothing like a good ol' MP bashing to get the crowd fired up.  



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> I want to know why they are promoted on BMQ grad. Why don't they have to wait like everyone else? After proper training a Pte can write a ticket like a Sgt, under the same authority. So why are MP's so special?



As previously stated, the fact of the matter is MPs have not been getting this due to being “special” or “political reasoning”.  This promotion is a recruiting incentive program for under strength trades, that’s it, that’s all.  Here is the Backgrounder issued in 2001 when this program was announced.  You’ll note that 18 trades were eligible for immediate promotion to Cpl upon completion of Basic, not just MPs so it is hardly a case of “everyone else” having to wait while MPs got divine intervention and became the only Branch worthy of immediate promotion to AL/Cpl.  Even today this is not the case and a quick perusal of the Recruiting website shows the following are potentially still eligible for immediate promotion to Cpl upon completion of Basic as a recruiting incentive:

ATIS Tech
Dent Tech
LCIS Tech
MAR Eng Tech
MRad Tech
MP
NES Op
NE Tech (C)
Sig Op
Son Op
Veh Tech

Why is the issue of MPs receiving the promotion to Cpl such an issue while no-one seems to care about the other 10 trades eligible to receive, and in all likelihood are having new recruits actually receive, the same promotion?  Maybe it’s because we are the only trade where everyone one of our recruits meets the eligibility for the promotion and are therefore the most obvious beneficiaries of it?  Are the other trades recruiting in such small numbers and/or having so few people meet the eligibility criteria that it is rare to find someone who has been insta-promoted in these other trades?  Or is Al closer to the mark with his reasoning…?

Do I agree with the program?  No, I most definitely do not mostly for the reasons which have been clearly illuminated in this thread.  As stated, a Cpl should have the general military knowledge of a Cpl and this only comes through time and experience but it is possible to argue that much of what is considered to be general military knowledge has little transportability between bases of different elements.  Ie.  You get a MCpl posted into an Army base after 12 years on Air Force bases and he’s going to be at as much of a loss with regard to Army vehicles, equipment and terminology as the AL/Cpl right out of the School.  Also, as a Branch which is constantly under the microscope the less reasons there are for people to scream “MPs are getting preferential treatment!” the better.  NewCenturion also has a valid point though with regard to the danger of premature promotion.  While it’s nice to say that it should never happen, it is a reality we, and other Branches I would guess, do have to deal with due to high attrition rates and other factors.

This has been a matter of serious discussion within the Branch since at least 2004 and I have yet to hear a convincing argument as to why a program with so many "cons" which negatively impact individuals and the Branch, especially over the long term, should be maintained.


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jul 2006)

Cyr said:
			
		

> To ansewer your quest, Yes Mp's are private's during basic training in  St. Jean. At your graduation you are promoted to Corporal. But that also doesn't mean that just because you now have the rank that you can let it go to your head either. Besides now that you have this rank you are held to a higher standard than a private to. It's kinda like a double edged sword.



I am not being disrespectful to the Cpl rank but would being promoted to the Cpl really go to your head??  I was a Cpl once...don't remember it "going to my head".  Not sure what you mean by that...and...I thought it was a A/Cpl promotion.

My understanding is MPs also receive Spec 1 pay, but I am sure they only get that after they are QL5A qual'd.


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jul 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> That's neither a reason or an excuse. The fact is, that they have no greater bearing on their trade than anyone else, they should spend the time, like the rest. Being an MP isn't rocket science. There is absolutley nothing, that make them special.



I am not sure about any other trades, there may be some, but MPs HAVE to have a 2 year vocational "law and security" program just to get in to the trade.  Along with the normal recruiting process they also go for a special assessment, the name eludes me at this time.

That was how it was explained to me by a buddy of mine that CT'd to MP a few years back...AND I am sure he said they were getting Spec right out of the Academy at the time...


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## George Wallace (18 Jul 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> My understanding is MPs also receive Spec 1 pay, but I am sure they only get that after they are QL5A qual'd.





			
				Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> That was how it was explained to me by a buddy of mine that CT'd to MP a few years back...AND I am sure he said they were getting Spec right out of the Academy at the time...



Well? Make up you mind.....Spec Pay after QL5A or right out of the Academy?  There is a difference.


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jul 2006)

Groucho said:
			
		

> The reason Canadian MP start as CPL (after training)  dates back in time to the Monkeys ( ouch the RMPs) in the British Army being LCPLs after finishing training! This is so they have some rank as PTEs can not arrest anybody!!



Not the case with CF MPs.  You can find the Powers of Arrest of Personnel Appointed as MPs in QR & O Vol II (along with Powers of Arrest of CF Members of the non-MP flavour as well)...


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jul 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well? Make up you mind.....Spec Pay after QL5A or right out of the Academy?  There is a difference.



George,

Roger.  Unclear as I said it.  I believe, prior to the OSIP that came out in 2004 timeframe.  Not fully awake yet...from a post in OSIP...

SUBJ: SPECIALIST PAY OCCUPATIONAL IMPLEMENTATION PLAN (OSIP) FOR NCMS - ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTION

REFS: (removed, you can ask me for them if you want them)

1. IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT ASSIGNMENT OF SPECIALIST PAY IS ADMINISTERED APPROPRIATELY, THE FOLLOWING DIRECTION IS PROVIDED AS INDICATED AT REF C PARA 12

2. FOR CFRG, ALL PERSONNEL ENROLLED INTO A SPECIALIST OCCUPATION ARE TO BE ENROLLED INTO THE JR SUB-DIVISION FOR THAT OCCUPATION

3. THE INTENTION OF THE OSIP IS TO ENSURE THAT PERSONNEL ONLY RECEIVE SPECIALIST PAY WHEN THEY ARE FULLY QUALIFIED IAW THEIR OCCUPATION SPECIFICATION (OS) AND HAVE ACHIEVED THE REQUIRED RANK IAW OCCUPATION REQUIREMENTS (SEE CHART ON DPPD WEBSITE) HTTP(removed) AND DOWNLOAD EXCEL SPREADSHEET

4. UNITS ARE ONLY TO MOVE PERSONNEL INTO THE QUALIFIED SUB-DIVISION UPON ACHIEVEMENT OF BOTH THE REQUIRED RANK AND THE REQUIRED QUALIFICATION FOR THAT SUBDIVISION, WHICHEVER COMES LATER

5. NCMS IN THE RANK OF LS/CPL PRIOR TO ACHIEVING TRADE QUALIFICATION (OR MS/MCPL, PO2/SGT OR PO1/WO) AS REQUIRED FOR THE SPECIFIC OCCUPATION) INCLUDING:

A. MBRS PROMOTED ACTING LACKING
B. MBRS PROMOTED SUBSTANTIVE, AND
C. MBRS WHO ARE VOLUNTARILY OCCUPATIONAL TRANSFERRED

WILL REMAIN IN THE JUNIOR SUB-DIVISION AT STANDARD TRADE GROUP RATES OF PAY (EXCEPT FLT ENG AND NDT TECH MOCS WHICH WILL BE SPEC1 IN THE JR SUBDIVISION) UNTIL ALL OCCUPATIONAL QUALIFICATIONS REQUIREMENTS FOR THE OCCUPATION ARE SUCCESSFULLY ATTAINED. ONCE OCCUPATIONALLY QUALIFIED, THAT MBR WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO THE APPLICABLE SUB-DIVISION AND BE REMUNERATED ACCORDINGLY (SPEC 1 OR SPEC 2). THE RATE OF PAY SHALL BE ESTABLISHED AT THE INCENTIVE PAY CATEGORY FOR THE MBR'S RANK, PAY LEVEL AND NEW TRADE GROUP THAT IS NEAREST TO BUT NOT LESS THAN, THE RATE OF PAY THE MBR WAS RECEIVING ON THE DAY IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE MBR'S TRANSFER FOR THE PURPOSES OF IPC INCREASES, THE IPC ANNIVERSARY DATE SHALL BE THE ACTUAL DATE OF TRANSFER FROM THE STANDARD TRADE GROUP TO THE SPECIALIST TRADE GROUP


which would go back to what I was "trying" to say...before OSIP, they were getting Spec right out of the Academy.  Not the case now, they have to be 5A qual'd like everyone else (which also points out that all the other spec pay MOCs are like that now too).

Hope that clears up my confusing posts.


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jul 2006)

NewCenturion said:
			
		

> There is a MP Sgt training RCMP recruits in Regina now



I believe I saw an article recently in The Maple Leaf about a MP WO that was at Depot in Regina doing the business there too.  

Nope, not expert, but I always, in my own little head, thought the major difference between MPs and civie cops was that they (MPs) investigate and charge under the NDA, enforce the CSD also along with the CoC, and have to hand over MAJOR crimes to civilian Peace Officers (i.e. murder, sexual assualt, etc that get handed over to the RCMP immediately), and that, as an MP, YOU are subject to the NDA and CSD as well.  (I have reminded a few MP Cpl's that were a wee bit green that a couple of times while here in Halifax over the past few years).

I do agree with some earlier posts on the best MPs I have dealt with are OTs (out of Cmbt Arms) and the "new to the army and I am now a Cpl" ones are a bit more...cocky to deal with.

I had a cousin who was a MP Pte back in '89.  He "detained" a Capt who was running behind in 12 Wing and was speeding (55 in a 50 zone).  He (the MP Pte) ended up getting his arse chewed bad, IIRC his story, because said Capt was the pilot of a SeaKing that was sposed to fly out to the boat that was now waiting for it while MP Pte was lecturing the pilot on "CF Discipline" and the lot at the Guard House in Shearwater.   :


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## Shamrock (18 Jul 2006)

All my past complaints about the Branch aside, I genuinely agree with MP's getting in as Cpl's.  It's an excellent recruiting incentive that draws professionals interested in a military police career already established in civilian life -- complete with families, mortgages, and debt.  Civilian police and the MP's compete for the same recruits, and sometimes money is a large factor.  As Cpl's, even ones promoted right off basic, MP's will have more presence than Pte's.  It's easier to get lippy to a pte than to a cpl, even if they both have identical amounts of time in.  DEO officers can get promoted to 2Lt sooner than their ROTP counterparts, does that make them any less effective as platoon commanders?

As for OT's in to MP being better police, I think that data's a bit misleading.  Individuals who will do well as MP's will do well regardless of experience, though that experience may enrichen their MP career.  Those people are highly motivated, energetic, and intelligent not because of their time in the Arms, but because they are that way by nature.


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## S McKee (18 Jul 2006)

MPs do not turn over MAJOR crimes to the RCMP. The NIS investigates murder, sexual assault etc if it occurs on DND property. The NIS can lay charges under the NDA and the Criminal Code as well as other federal statutes. NIS have a variety of specialzed skills they can draw on i.e. polygraph, forensic identification techs (CIS to the non-initiated). If they need other resources they can access these through local police depts who are usually much larger.  

As an example in 04 there was an armed robbery at the Credit Union on base here in Edmonton, the suspect got away with the most cash taken in a robbery in Edmonton's history. Not only did the NIS solve the case, get the bad guy and re-covered the money, but in doing so also they solved several other crimes that occurred within the city of Edmonton and in the county (RCMP jurisdiction). 

Regular MP members recommend NDA charges up through the chain of command. However they can lay Criminal Code Charges in the civilian courts without the approval of the chain if an offence has been committed.


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## garb811 (18 Jul 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> which would go back to what I was "trying" to say...before OSIP, they were getting Spec right out of the Academy.  Not the case now, they have to be 5A qual'd like everyone else (which also points out that all the other spec pay MOCs are like that now too).
> 
> Hope that clears up my confusing posts.



To make everyone feel even better about this...the following applied to MP pers for sure and probably applied to all the trades involved in this incentive program prior to that message being released:

Everyone with backdated promotions to Cpl at the end of Basic were also given Spec 1 backdated to the date of enrolment.  OT's were Spec 1 commencing the day they were accepted for OT, even if they were awaiting their course for extended periods.  Additionally, Reserve pers on Class “C” contracts were also entitled to Spec Pay, even if their Reserve MOC was not normally entitled and they were unqualified for it IAW Reg Force standards (ie. Reserve MP who were not badged).  Who says the CF always screws the member when it comes to money?


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## garb811 (18 Jul 2006)

Callsign Kenny said:
			
		

> It's an excellent recruiting incentive that draws professionals interested in a military police career already established in civilian life -- complete with families, mortgages, and debt.  Civilian police and the MP's compete for the same recruits, and sometimes money is a large factor.



While it's true MP and civilian police forces compete for recruits from generally the same pool, the last thing I want is for the deciding factor to be dollars when someone makes their decision because at the end of the day the CF is unable to compete on a monetary basis over the long haul with civilian police services.  Although my information is a little dated, what I have indicates that although the MP Branch is/was the highest paid upon commencement that advantage is rapidly lost.  A MP Cpl gains only about $3000 more after four years while the average Constable gains $25-30K when they hit their max salary, not even counting overtime.  You have to be a MWO/CWO to even begin to match what a Constable makes after 3-6 years, depending on the police service.  Last I looked, there weren't a lot of 3-6 year CWO's kicking around so it's pretty obvious to me that if money is the sole factor someone decided to be a MP they won't stick around long...


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## Shamrock (18 Jul 2006)

Yep, and with the training they get, it may be easier for them to get into CivPol, where they'll make more money.  This may be an incorrect point, but aren't the recruiting PT standards for MP's less than several metropolitan forces and the RCMP?

Personally, I'll take a police force that will compete with civilian forces to recruit the most competitive candidates rather than a force competing wages against mall security.


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## garb811 (18 Jul 2006)

Callsign Kenny said:
			
		

> Yep, and with the training they get, it may be easier for them to get into CivPol, where they'll make more money.  This may be an incorrect point, but aren't the recruiting PT standards for MP's less than several metropolitan forces and the RCMP?


So is the recruting PT standard for Infantry, your point would be?


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## canadianblue (18 Jul 2006)

> I've never seen a problem with the MP's they seemed to do their job just as professionally as any other civie police service, if not more. Usually the people that have a hate on for MP's hate civilian police just as much.
> 
> 
> Nope -- I hate MP's - I have a lot of real cop friends



Why do you hate MP's?


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jul 2006)

NewCenturion said:
			
		

> MPs do not turn over MAJOR crimes to the RCMP. The NIS investigates murder, sexual assault etc if it occurs on DND property. The NIS can lay charges under the NDA and the Criminal Code as well as other federal statutes. NIS have a variety of specialzed skills they can draw on i.e. polygraph, forensic identification techs (CIS to the non-initiated). If they need other resources they can access these through local police depts who are usually much larger.
> 
> As an example in 04 there was an armed robbery at the Credit Union on base here in Edmonton, the suspect got away with the most cash taken in a robbery in Edmonton's history. Not only did the NIS solve the case, get the bad guy and re-covered the money, but in doing so also they solved several other crimes that occurred within the city of Edmonton and in the county (RCMP jurisdiction).
> 
> Regular MP members recommend NDA charges up through the chain of command. However they can lay Criminal Code Charges in the civilian courts without the approval of the chain if an offence has been committed.



Pays to hear from those that know!  I was told that by a MP MWO a few years back at the Area CWO PD weekend.  Could it have changed in the last say...4 years??


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## Poppa (18 Jul 2006)

Nope -- I hate MP's - I have a lot of real cop friends

Come on - we're not that bad! I admit I may not be as much fun as I was during the TEAL conf...but hate?


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## Shamrock (18 Jul 2006)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Nope -- I hate MP's - I have a lot of real cop friends



Luckily, unlike IMP's, MP's come equipped with hotsauce.


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## S McKee (18 Jul 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Pays to hear from those that know!  I was told that by a MP MWO a few years back at the Area CWO PD weekend.  Could it have changed in the last say...4 years??


These changes have all happened within the last few years as the branch developed the skill sets to investigate these crimes.


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## MILPO (18 Jul 2006)

I have read more than enough ignorance about the MP trade in this thread that I can't even finish reading the full three pages.  A few posts at the start of the thread were all i needed to read.

First off, there is nothing wrong with promoting us to Cpl upon graduating from basic.  We all paid our own way through college, which was a requirement (and is the only police service that requires a college diploma in Canada) of the CFMP upon enrolment.  Being payed a Cpl's salary for this requirement, and previous experience as some of us do have, is what it should be and should remain if the requirements are met for the sole reason of it being a REAL police officer job, with REAL peace officer status just like REAL police officers.  

Secondly, compare our PT with any other police service.  Given, the physical testing upon enrolment isn't exactly like that of the pursuit restraint circut, PARE test and whatever other tests are out there, we undergo over 9 months of training to become a police officer whereas any other police service trains max. 6 months in Canada.  If i break that down, that means BMQ and 6 months of police academy training, which includes physical training.  So after nine months of consistent PT, I would think that we are by all means physically assessed appropiately throughout our initial training period.  So ask an Ontario Police Service member how much PT was emphasized throughout their 3 month training period and compare that to 9 months of training.  As well, we attend the MPAC and go through a series of testing and interview, unlike many other police services.

Thirdly, we are a professional group and do our job with pride and integrity, as you will find our civilian counterparts do.  We are trained to a high standard, alongside all civilian police services.  Our job demands patience, respect, integrity and overall common sense when dealing with our community, even when it entails dealing with difficult people.  The latter, most of us have it and display it on a regular basis.

If you have a gripe about the MP trade fine, but do us all a favor and don't complain about your personal issues and hate on for police officers.  To a certain Sig person, I don't know if you are just trying to get a rise out of some of us, but your posts lack respect, intelligence and substance.  Sure you're entitled to your opinion, but enough of the MP bashing, we are all part of the same team when it comes down to it in the end.


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## canadianblue (18 Jul 2006)

> To a certain Sig person, I don't know if you are just trying to get a rise out of some of us, but your posts lack respect, intelligence and substance.  Sure you're entitled to your opinion, but enough of the MP bashing, we are all part of the same team when it comes down to it in the end.



Not sure if your talking about me, but I wasn't bashing the MP's, I thought that I was defending them and saying they did a great job. Unless I made a typo while making those comments.


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Jul 2006)

Sigs Guy said:
			
		

> Not sure if your talking about me, but I wasn't bashing the MP's, I thought that I was defending them and saying they did a great job. Unless I made a typo while making those comments.



He's probably talking about the banned one, Hoover, who's real name is not Hoover and is no relation to the real one by that name in your trade. That make sense?


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## Kat Stevens (18 Jul 2006)

NewCenturion said:
			
		

> As an example in 04 there was an armed robbery at the Credit Union on base here in Edmonton, the suspect got away with the most cash taken in a robbery in Edmonton's history. Not only did the NIS solve the case, get the bad guy and re-covered the money, but in doing so also they solved several other crimes that occurred within the city of Edmonton and in the county (RCMP jurisdiction).



They also have cute-as-a-button goth chick forensic genius, and an eccentric old English boarding school type ME who loves to share his pointless stories.  Oh, let's not forget the hottie MOSAD exchange student, rowr.  I love the way they bust up all those AQ sleeper cells, it's wicked awesome!


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## Ex-Dragoon (18 Jul 2006)

Psssssssst Kat, you are thnkng of the show _NCIS_


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## FastEddy (19 Jul 2006)

MILPO said:
			
		

> I have read more than enough ignorance about the MP trade in this thread that I can't even finish reading the full three pages.  A few posts at the start of the thread were all i needed to read.
> 
> 
> If you have a gripe about the MP trade fine, but do us all a favor and don't complain about your personal issues and hate on for police officers.  To a certain Sig person, I don't know if you are just trying to get a rise out of some of us, but your posts lack respect, intelligence and substance.  Sure you're entitled to your opinion, but enough of the MP bashing, we are all part of the same team when it comes down to it in the end.




Actually, the offending post was contributed by "Infidel-6". The "Sigs person" has always been supported of the MP Branch and is usually complimentary.

Cheers.


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## FastEddy (19 Jul 2006)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> They also have cute-as-a-button goth chick forensic genius, and an eccentric old English boarding school type ME who loves to share his pointless stories.  Oh, let's not forget the hottie MOSAD exchange student, rowr.  I love the way they bust up all those AQ sleeper cells, it's wicked awesome!




Regarding the above, I'm not quite sure how you associate it with the solving of the Edmonton Case.

I presume your meaning is meant to be,  Cute,  Humorous,  Sarcastic or just plain Stupid.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Jul 2006)

Get knotted


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## FastEddy (19 Jul 2006)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Get knotted




I guess that eliminates the first two.


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## garb811 (19 Jul 2006)

Man...you know the thread is done when someone gets flamed for an obvious har-har followed by a


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## 17thRecceSgt (19 Jul 2006)

MILPO said:
			
		

> First off, there is nothing wrong with promoting us to Cpl upon graduating from basic.  We all paid our own way through college, which was a requirement (and is the only police service that requires a college diploma in Canada) of the CFMP upon enrolment.  Being payed a Cpl's salary for this requirement, and previous experience as some of us do have, is what it should be and should remain if the requirements are met for the sole reason of it being a REAL police officer job, with REAL peace officer status just like REAL police officers.



Oddly enough, there is a wholeeeeeeeeeeeee bunch of Privates serving in A-stan right now that are earning their pay in ways you don't, and not as much as some newbie MP Cpl that has zero T.I. and just finished an Academy.  I consider those troops to have REAL jobs, and be REAL soldiers, and the bullets, IEDs, RPGs, and other threats over there are as REAL as it gets.

If you have to substansiate the auto-Cpl pay, using the words REAL infers things that are not on, IMHO.

Oh, and ya remember what MP means.

*MILITARY* Police.

So stop comparing to civie cops.  Different basket of eggs IMO.

Ya, I have had to deal with some of these Insta-MP-Cpl's here in Halifax, and when they realize YOU are right, and they ARE subject to the CSD because they ARE military, and they then, ohh let's say, call you by your rank, put their friggin headdress on outside when told to, when outside of their patrol car and just standing around, by a Snr NCO...well, my advice to them is to remember what the M in MP is.

And thats my 2 cents.  Btw, how long have you been in??  Any military experience before being an MP?


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## garb811 (19 Jul 2006)

MILPO said:
			
		

> First off, there is nothing wrong with promoting us to Cpl upon graduating from basic.  We all paid our own way through college, which was a requirement (and is the only police service that requires a college diploma in Canada) of the CFMP upon enrolment.  Being payed a Cpl's salary for this requirement, and previous experience as some of us do have, is what it should be and should remain if the requirements are met for the sole reason of it being a REAL police officer job, with REAL peace officer status just like REAL police officers.



This painfully illustrates the sense of entitlement which is currently bringing everyone down on the Branch and generating talk of swollen egos and heads.  

Yes, to be recruited as an MP someone requires a 2 year college diploma and yes, they have gone through a stringent and competitive selection process to make it through the door as well but guess what?  Once those recruits are in the door they do not have a skill set which enables them to perform the duties of a MP right away.  As you’ve illustrated, they require 9 months of training before they are even eligible to start really learning their trade by going out and conducting their duties in the real world vice the canned scenarios and lectures of the Academy.  Even after graduation they require close and continuous supervision throughout the Provisional Employment Period before they “should” be totally let off the leash and allowed to operate under normal supervision.  At the end of the day, Corporal is a rank, not a pay level.  For the vast majority of CF members it represents a period of dedicated service during which time they not only become proficient in their trade but also learn about and integrate into the Profession of Arms and shows they (should) have the requisite knowledge and skills to perform the first level of leadership and supervision within the CF.  It should not be used as a recruiting incentive to entice untrained people to join the MP Branch, or any other Branch for that matter, and doing so lessens the value of the rank and, as seen, brings ridicule and derision to those who have been shake and baked.  IF a member has previous service, knowledge and skills which allows them to perform their duties at the Cpl level then by all means use accelerated promotion as a method to entice people back into the Branch.  If not then they should follow the career path every other untrained applicant to the CF does and look forward to the day that they acquire the skills, knowledge and training to finally earn the right to receive the promotion to Cpl and Spec Pay.  

By the way, the reason the promotion is being given has SFA to do with it being a REAL police officer job, with REAL peace officer status just like REAL police officers.  It’s a recruiting tool, plain and simple, just like it is for every other trade I listed previously.  The only real difference I can think of is unlike most of those other trades where the recruits being promoted have a good base of practical knowledge and skills to draw on from their civilian courses, the average MP recruit brings lots of “book learning” yet very little practical, hands on, police training, skills and experience to the table…



> I have read more than enough ignorance about the MP trade in this thread that I can't even finish reading the full three pages.  A few posts at the start of the thread were all i needed to read.


After this if anyone else actually bothered to read your post you would be extremely lucky…  Writing things like this is not the best way to try to sway people to your viewpoint because if you can’t respect their opinion enough to read it, no matter how much you disagree with it, why should they bother to read yours?


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## 17thRecceSgt (19 Jul 2006)

MP 00161 said:
			
		

> This painfully illustrates the sense of entitlement which is currently bringing everyone down on the Branch and generating talk of swollen egos and heads.
> 
> Yes, to be recruited as an MP someone requires a 2 year college diploma and yes, they have gone through a stringent and competitive selection process to make it through the door as well



I am CT'ing to 226 (ATIS Tech).  I have 3 years of college in tech stuff.  I have 17 years in the CF as of the 25th of July.  I have gone thru many things, and after being WO qualified (6B and SLC) in my current MOC, I am giving it all up, changing MOCs, and becoming Cpl Bloggins again.  So someone with no previous experience is looked at the same as me...because I will be dropping down to Cpl shortly, and with no gripes about it, why wouldn't I be?  I have T.I. in that MOC.  

I don't get the "well, I went to college and had to be selected" stuff I here zero T.I. MPs talking about.  Oddly enough, its the direct-entry ones that go on about this in my experience, and they also seem to be the ones comparing themselves to "civilian police forces".  

MP.  *Military* Police.  Don't see the word "Toronto Metro" in there...so I don't get that mentality...

Goodpost MP 00161.  I think you did some real damage-control there.  +1.

Mud


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## garb811 (2 Feb 2007)

OK, here is the official word from a few months ago regarding the state of things with starting out in the Branch.  My apologies for not posting it sooner, life happened and other things took priority but I think its important to get the official word into the thread so potential recruits know the score.  

*PROMOTIONS*
- New MP recruits will be enrolled as Privates.
- Upon completion of BMQ, they will receive an automatic promotion to Cpl

*SPEC PAY*
- Any MP currently receiving spec pay at the time of the change would have continued to receive it. 
- To bring the Branch in line with CF pay policy, Spec Pay will not be granted until the member has successfully completed all of the requirements of DP2 (old QL4 and QL5A).  This means that upon promotion to Cpl at the end of BMQ the member will paid in the Standard Trade Group and they will remain there until they graduate the DP2 course in Borden, which could (should?) take up to 3 years after they complete DP1 if historical trends continue.
- In order to proceed on DP2 training, the member must have successfully completed the PEP program.  For us old timers, this is now equivalent to QL4.

While this will not fix all of the issues we have discussed, particularly that caused by the automatic promotion to Cpl, it does rationalise the process somewhat and brings the Branch in line with the rest of the CF, at least with regard to the granting of Spec Pay.

The really good news, in my book anyways, is there is now a hammer to use with PEPs who do not wish to get through the process in a timely fashion or when it becomes obvious the member is unable to do their duties in the real world.  As PEP wasn't a formal qualification but more of a check in the box type thing, it became a huge problem when someone either didn't want to complete the process, or heaven forbid, we needed to try to unload them.  Of course, the onus is now also on the supervisors to ensure that they don’t unfairly impede the PEPs progress as well.

EDIT:  Spelling


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## NINER-SIX (2 Feb 2007)

A MP Pte in a guardhouse......those were the days...the last real one I saw was ages ago ......Now you can walk into the guardhouse and understand that the Cpl your talking has been in the trade for more then his first day now....


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## MILPO (8 Feb 2007)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> I am CT'ing to 226 (ATIS Tech).  I have 3 years of college in tech stuff.  I have 17 years in the CF as of the 25th of July.  I have gone thru many things, and after being WO qualified (6B and SLC) in my current MOC, I am giving it all up, changing MOCs, and becoming Cpl Bloggins again.  So someone with no previous experience is looked at the same as me...because I will be dropping down to Cpl shortly, and with no gripes about it, why wouldn't I be?  I have T.I. in that MOC.
> 
> I don't get the "well, I went to college and had to be selected" stuff I here zero T.I. MPs talking about.  Oddly enough, its the direct-entry ones that go on about this in my experience, and they also seem to be the ones comparing themselves to "civilian police forces".
> 
> ...



It's not all about direct entry having college.  It's about being paid equivalent to our civi counterparts.  We do the exact same policing job as civis, have the same status plus have military specific duties, which is why you may hear it being compared to civi forces, not limited to Toronto Metro.  Yes, we all understood we were joining the military police and to some who have been in the military for a long time prefer to throw the big M point at us direct hires in an attempt to "keep the policing aspect from going to our heads" or so it seems.  

Domestic policing, being our "secondary duty", is a good way to gain experience to be utilized in the field/overseas.  What is so wrong with being compensated comparably to a civi force for doing the same job and more?  I like the military and the police part of the job, the latter mostly, hence the big M and big P....


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## 17thRecceSgt (13 Feb 2007)

But not everyone can be paid equivalent to civie counterparts.  I can tell you, there is difference, to most people I know, from the direct entry Cpls to the ones that are VOTs/remusters who have been around the block and have a smick about the running of the military...

Good points though, maybe I was painting with too big of a brush...

I have dealt with a few "quick pick" Cpls that had to be reminded that they were also...subject to the CSD   ;D.

MRM


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## X-army-cst (13 Apr 2007)

Good day folks. I know this thread is a bit dead but....Yes there is an MP in Depot and I met and was involved in a training scenario with him. 1 MP out of dozens of instructors. It makes very good sense there are police forces represebted all over the map in Depot. It gives a good flavour to the training and many varied experiences to bring to a recruit and make them better for it. 
MP's are real police and do perform some real good work don't forget it. It is just that it isn't as often as their civilian counter parts. Some folks thinks this makes them less of a police officer. Wel that means that a person in a small town is less than a guy from Surrey? Certainly not. 
Yeah in my time if the CF(20yrs) I didn't like MP's..yeah spoil sports and ruining our fun. Short sighted..sure. Understandable of course...same way people who say that they don't like police are ALWYAS involved in criminal activity, almost always anyway. They know what an FPS is let's put it that way. 

Plus MP's do ARMY shit..that no-one in civy world does. 

So good on you MP guys I would love to work with you one day in my new career in the RCMP..I think we will see with our re-newed co-operation between RCMP and CF.
Here's hoping!  

Take care and stay safe my fellow officers.

Andrew EX sig pig and now RCMP Cst.


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## ArmyRick (19 Apr 2007)

I don't agree with MP, veh tech or any other trade getting CPL immediately. CPL is a rank based on qualification and expirience, not civie college diplomas.


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## Disenchantedsailor (20 Apr 2007)

NewCenturion said:
			
		

> Regular MP members recommend NDA charges up through the chain of command. However they can lay Criminal Code Charges in the civilian courts without the approval of the chain if an offence has been committed.


Not sure where you got that one, MP assigned to duties with NIS and only NIS may lay a charge against a military mbr in respect to a service offence; criminal code offences are for the most part laid under sec 130 of the NDA (miscilainious offences under the CCC) and generally (if serious enough) prosecuted at court martial.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Apr 2007)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I don't agree with MP, veh tech or any other trade getting CPL immediately. CPL is a rank based on qualification and expirience, not civie college diplomas.



I agree, if the CF needs incentives than give them the cash difference between 4 years as a Private as compared to the same time frame as a Corporal.


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## garb811 (20 Apr 2007)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Not sure where you got that one, MP assigned to duties with NIS and only NIS may lay a charge against a military mbr in respect to a service offence; criminal code offences are for the most part laid under sec 130 of the NDA (miscilainious offences under the CCC) and generally (if serious enough) prosecuted at court martial.


Ahhh, I get it, MP posted to NIS are the only MPs who are able to directly lay NDA charges, kinda like he stated in his first para:


			
				NewCenturion said:
			
		

> MPs do not turn over MAJOR crimes to the RCMP. The NIS investigates murder, sexual assault etc if it occurs on DND property. The NIS can lay charges under the NDA and the Criminal Code as well as other federal statutes. NIS have a variety of specialzed skills they can draw on i.e. polygraph, forensic identification techs (CIS to the non-initiated). If they need other resources they can access these through local police depts who are usually much larger.


Thanks for taking the time to clear that one up but it really wasn't necessary, particularly as he served with NIS while an MP and he knows exactly how the system works...  :

I'm not sure where you got the idea from but most military members charged with an offense pursuant to the Criminal Code are not charged via Section 130 of the NDA.  Although there has been a marked increase in the use of Section 130 in recent years (greatly facilitated by the NDA being amended to allow persons convicted of certain service offences, including 130, to be subject to the _Identification of Criminals Act_ as well as allowing Courts Martial to try all offences in Canada), my experience is the preponderance of Criminal Code offences commited while the member is in Canada continue to be pursued via the civilian courts unless there is a clear military nexus (such as the member was on duty when the offence was committed) and the circumstances warrant it being pursued through the Code of Service Discipline for...well...discipline reasons.  

A very broad rule of thumb is if the member commits a Criminal Code offence while off duty, they will be dealt with via the civilian system unless specific direction exists otherwise.  This approach ensures military members being charged for an offence pursuant to the Criminal Code face the same jeopardy as other members of the surrounding community, lessens the burden on the Military Justice system, removes the possibility of the Chain of Command declining to lay or proceed with a charge (placing the decision to proceed in the hands of the Crown who has no interest in the individual other than as the subject of the charge) and allows MP not posted to NIS to lay charges everywhere but BC and Quebec, where the Crown makes the decision to lay charges.  Additionally, in some circumstances, such as instances of spousal assault, MP are required to lay criminal charges in Civilian Court vice referring the issue to the Military Justice system.

_Edit:  small addition for clarity_


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## Disenchantedsailor (20 Apr 2007)

my bad I went on the assumption of "on duty acts" where there has indeed been an increase in section 130 charges I have also seen an increase in the last couple of years in off duty acts committed on military property handled by the military justice system vice the civillian system, and even a couple with split jurisdiction.


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## garb811 (21 Apr 2007)

Seen.  That's the problem when you only get to look at part of the picture via the Chief Military Judge's website.


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