# Officers and Swagger Sticks



## IntlBr (15 Feb 2009)

Good Day All,

A few of us were talking in the Officer's Mess the other day, and got onto the subject of swagger sticks.  I did a search here but was unable to turn up anything of substance, as everything seems to focus on Drill Canes and Pace Sticks.  Why did swagger sticks fall out of use?  I can't even find a reference to them in the Dress Instructions, which for a once standard and very widely used item I feel is a little odd.  

After speaking with the Adj, he said he'd be all for "bringing it back" - but I wanted to vet it amongst the users here to see what the consensus was.  I have a feeling Michael O'Leary (amongst others) might be able to sort me out with regards to use, and the discontinuation thereof, but lets hear it!

Cheers!


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## Michael OLeary (15 Feb 2009)

Quite simply, the use of swagger sticks, drill canes, etc., fell out of use as common military accoutrements because they (i.e., their equivalents such as riding crops carried by 'gentlemen') fell out of fashion in general society.  Pace sticks remained because they still had a military purpose that saw use on the parade ground.

While we generally perceive swagger sticks as an officers' accoutrements, they were actually carried by all ranks at times in walking out dress.


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## George Wallace (15 Feb 2009)

As we departed from our 18th Century philosophies of "Officership" in the 1980's, we dispensed with the frivolous expenditures spent on appearances and dispensed with them, along with such finery as "Dickies" or scarves.   ;D


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## Michael OLeary (15 Feb 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As we departed from our 18th Century philosophies of "Officership" in the 1980's, we dispensed with the frivolous expenditures spent on appearances and dispensed with them, along with such finery as "Dickies" or scarves.   ;D



Yup, too bad the smilie-annotated opionions of officers haven't also progressed.


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## IntlBr (15 Feb 2009)

Thanks for the info Mike, I knew that ORs carried the swagger sticks as well, but your info about falling out of use in society was definitely new, and makes perfect sense.

I'm still thinking about bringing it back, since our British counterparts are doing it, I don't see why we aren't.

Cheers!


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## KingKikapu (15 Feb 2009)

I get that the military is big on history and traditions, but nothing would demonstrate more succinctly that the military's priorities are out of step with the modern world than this if it were to go through.


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## Michael OLeary (15 Feb 2009)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> I get that the military is big on history and traditions, but nothing would demonstrate more succinctly that the military's priorities are out of step with the modern world than this if it were to go through.



I suspect that even if a regiment asked for such a thing and it wasn't shot down, it would only be approved for acquisition through individual private purchase.  If that was the case, it wouldn't affect the "military's priorities" at all, quite unlike the process that brought us the short-lived DEU tans and garrison dress with all of their attendant improvements to operational efficiency for the cost and effort to acquire and issue.


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## IntlBr (15 Feb 2009)

My priorities right now are on learning to be an effective officer, and part of this involves thinking about elements of being an officer - dress and deportment being quite a large part of it for a new officer.  If you don't like it, thats fine, but arguing that the "military's priorities are out of order" is tripe.  Its okay to ask questions, thats why we have this site.

Cheers.


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## KingKikapu (15 Feb 2009)

I didn't say the military's priorities are out of whack.  I think they're just fine for the moment.  I said if something like this went through, then I'd certainly be concerned.  I guess my real concern with it is what does it intend to accomplish?


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## IntlBr (15 Feb 2009)

A nod to our traditions, and heritage.

What objectives would carrying a swagger stick subvert?  You certainly seem to think its a bad idea - justify that.


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## Loachman (15 Feb 2009)

Corps of Guides said:
			
		

> A nod to our traditions, and heritage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## George Wallace (15 Feb 2009)

When we saw the disappearance of the Swagger Stick and Riding Crop, along with Regimental Scarves and Dickies, we also saw the disappearance of Stable Belts, and whole Orders of Dress.  Kit Shops were kept alive with the necessity for Regimental members to buy Regimental Accoutrement's.  Today's soldiers don't see the need for several Orders of Dress, and especially don't wish to have to maintain them; a sign of the recent generations.  I am sure many will look on the return of any of this, other than for Ceremonial, as being too much, frivolous and seriously place the Officer Corps in a poor light as they will appear to be living in a fantasy world of 18th Century Britain and the Caste System of the day.  Society has evolved from those times.  Today's more educated soldiers recognize that.


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## Infanteer (15 Feb 2009)

Think of it in a cultural context - the things fell from use within the military culture.  If you started carrying one around, your troops would either wonder why you were trying to look like an NCO or figure you were a retard for carrying a stick around.  Trend setting doesn't usually come around from a subaltern saying "I'm thinking of bringing this back" - institutional culture is a strong thing.


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## Neill McKay (15 Feb 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As we departed from our 18th Century philosophies of "Officership" in the 1980's,



What, in particular happened in the '80s surrounding officership?


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## Harris (15 Feb 2009)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> What, in particular happened in the '80s surrounding officership?



IMO the changing of an Officer from a leader to a manager.


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## the 48th regulator (15 Feb 2009)

Cant wait to see the traditional battle days being taken away, due to the prohibition that has infected the military.  Why do we bother recognizing Paarderberg day, frig, that is over a hundred years ago..Pacino day?  pfft, bad sgetti and wine that gives me a hang over for a month...Loose 'em!


Or that goofy game that the boys play out west, zoomafloom, or whatever it is called, as it may hurt someone.

In fact, why not get rid of regimental colours?  When was the last time we rallied to them in combat? Did we do it in the Sandbox?  I mean, were they actually flown while the bullets were blazing?

Yep, let's get rid of it all, as it makes no practical sense in our super refined Batttlestar gallactica military.  We know better now.

 :

dileas

tess


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## Infanteer (15 Feb 2009)

Harris said:
			
		

> IMO the changing of an Officer from a leader to a manager.



Not in my neck of the woods....


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Feb 2009)

If you really want one here ebay has it:

SWAGGER STICK CANADIAN ARMED FORCES


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## geo (15 Feb 2009)

well... speaking from personal experience WRT the RSMs canes & pacesticks....
THere was a time where you would see RSMs traveling all over the country.... with their canes & such regimental finery as was practical (and impractical) to carry.  There were some elaborate cases to ship those canes from point A to point B.

New rules were imposed & the RSMs regimental cane is pert much restricted to use within a unit's lines.... ONLY!

Sooo... if a unit ever decided to bring back riding crops or swagger sticks.... it would be restricted to unit lines.

And if ever a cane or stick was ever used by accident or intent against a member of the troops.... there would be hell to pay.


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## Michael OLeary (15 Feb 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> New rules were imposed & the RSMs regimental cane is pert much restricted to use within a unit's lines.... ONLY!
> 
> Sooo... if a unit ever decided to bring back riding crops or swagger sticks.... it would be restricted to unit lines.



Which is exactly the rules in place when the officers of 2RCR carried ashplant walking sticks in the mid-1980s. (I still have mine.)



			
				geo said:
			
		

> And if ever a cane or stick was ever used by accident or intent against a member of the troops.... there would be hell to pay.



No different than the expected responsibility in place with pace sticks.


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## geo (15 Feb 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> No different than the expected responsibility in place with pace sticks.


Heh... yeah BUT, Sr NCO with a pace stick has what.... 10+ years under the belt while the young officer has what.... 1, 2 or 3


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## Michael OLeary (15 Feb 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh... yeah BUT, Sr NCO with a pace stick has what.... 10+ years under the belt while the young officer has what.... 1, 2 or 3



So?


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## Infanteer (15 Feb 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh... yeah BUT, Sr NCO with a pace stick has what.... 10+ years under the belt while the young officer has what.... 1, 2 or 3



 ???


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## George Wallace (16 Feb 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Cant wait to see the traditional battle days being taken away, due to the prohibition that has infected the military.  Why do we bother recognizing Paarderberg day, frig, that is over a hundred years ago..Pacino day?  pfft, bad sgetti and wine that gives me a hang over for a month...Loose 'em!
> 
> 
> Or that goofy game that the boys play out west, zoomafloom, or whatever it is called, as it may hurt someone.
> ...



OK Tess

Just for you, I'll go down into the basement and dig through an old trunk and dig out my old Battle Dress.  I hope you don't mind me sending it to you for you to reminise of the old days.  I also hope that you won't mind wearing a Royal Blue Beret and flashes for 64 Fd Bty, 10 Fd Regt RCA.  Have fun at your next Bollywood reenactment.     >


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## muskrat89 (16 Feb 2009)

Anyway......

Is there any reason to _not_ lock this thread up?

Army.ca Staff


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## ltmaverick25 (16 Feb 2009)

Harris said:
			
		

> IMO the changing of an Officer from a leader to a manager.



Sadly there is some truth to that, though my sence is that we are starting to lean back towards leadership again.


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## The Anti-Royal (24 Feb 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Which is exactly the rules in place when the officers of 2RCR carried ashplant walking sticks in the mid-1980s. (I still have mine.)
> 
> No different than the expected responsibility in place with pace sticks.



I still have mine, as well.  There was at least one occasion, however, where it was carried outside 2 RCR lines (perhaps with an attendant bending of the rules).

In the spring of 1985, I reported to the RCR Battle School as an augmentee course officer and had brought my ash plant.  The RSM gently asked me, "What the f*&k, sir, is that?".  I guess I made it to the Adjt's office just before Mr. Riley got to the CO, and was authorized to carry it.


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## geo (24 Feb 2009)

TAR
Policies kayboshing the use of Canes & Sticks outside unit lines came out sometime around 1998-1999 so technicaly, in 1985, you shoulda been good to go... if your unit CO gave you an Okie dokie


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## PanaEng (24 Feb 2009)

> Quote from: N. McKay on February 15, 2009, 17:49:42
> 
> What, in particular happened in the '80s surrounding officership?
> 
> ...






			
				ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> Sadly there is some truth to that, though my sence is that we are starting to lean back towards leadership again.


concurrent, perhaps, but totally unrelated.

do you measure effectiveness and leadership by the fashion sense of the leader?

cheers,
Frank


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## medaid (25 Feb 2009)

O...k... this is JUST ME... but!

I'd like to see the return of Patrols for all Branches in the Land Element, for anyone who doesn't have a Regimental Dress. 

While we're at it... yes I don't mind the return of the Sam Brown either, and the Forage Cap. But that's it. Nothing more. 

The reasoning for the Patrols is that it looks sharp. It's different, and it serves as a gap between DEUs and Mess Dress. Yes! I know that Patrol were meant as a Walking out dress for the officers after duty hours, but I think they can be well used for PR purposes too. Our green DEUs just... well... it's not the same. 

And.... yes if I was allowed to wear one I would buy one and upkeep it with my own funds. All I need is the permission. 

The Navy Whites in the Summer times gets quite the attention from the public... in a positive way.


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## Michael OLeary (25 Feb 2009)

I agree . . . .  with everything before "_but!_".   :nod:


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Feb 2009)

Zing!!


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## Old Sweat (25 Feb 2009)

As one who carried one for several years, I do not miss the swagger stick one little bit. It was a silly affectation and a relic of Victorian fashion that was difficult to handle properly and too easy to misplace.

The following is an extract from the Officers' Dress chapter of Standing Orders for The Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery 1963: (The copyright is shown as belonging to the Director of Artillery 1963, but my copy was signed by the Colonel Commandant on 7 December 1962 during his visit to 1 RCHA. I was his ADC for the visit.)

*STICKS*

346. The approved swagger stick for officers is the Woolwich pattern, brown leather covered, approximately 24 inches long by 3/4 of an inch in diameter.

347. Sticks are not carried when:

a. On regimental parade with troops.

b. Wearing full dress or numbers 1, 2 or 3 orders of dress.

c. On training exercises.

d. On active service.

As for patrols, give your head a shake.


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## chris_log (25 Feb 2009)

MedTech said:
			
		

> O...k... this is JUST ME... but!
> 
> I'd like to see the return of Patrols for all Branches in the Land Element, for anyone who doesn't have a Regimental Dress.
> 
> ...



So, would these patrols of yours be issued, or out of pocket?

Mess dress is expensive enough and I think people have enough uniforms hanging in their closets already. And besides, what 'gap' would it be filling. DEU's are dress of the day if it's not workdress or civvies and mess dress fills that little 'fancy' niche for officers quite well. What on earth would you wear patrols for? 

I sure as heck don't want to pay out of pocket for another uniform (considering I have to buy my own boots, socks, mess dress, gloves, underwear, flashlights etc etc and I'm not even posted to a unit yet). From a purely financial point of view, no way. I (and the CF) have better things to spend money on.


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## mover1 (25 Feb 2009)

OK we are willing to let you have the patrols issued out of pocket but we need to take something from the dress regs that is equally silly. 
So no more handlebar moustaches!   ;D


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## medaid (25 Feb 2009)

As I said it was just me. You spending $ to get your own boots etc is your own chosing, the CF issues you those things except Mess Dress, and again... Your own chosing to have them. 

I never said that the CF would be paying for it, it'll be out of your own pocket if you want a set. Just like Mess Dress. Again, just me. Not to mention someone brought the crazy idea of swagger stick re-introduction, I just thought that I'd throw something just as crazy back in there so


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## chris_log (25 Feb 2009)

MedTech said:
			
		

> As I said it was just me. You spending $ to get your own boots etc is your own chosing, the CF issues you those things except Mess Dress, and again... Your own chosing to have them.
> 
> I never said that the CF would be paying for it, it'll be out of your own pocket if you want a set. Just like Mess Dress. Again, just me. Not to mention someone brought the crazy idea of swagger stick re-introduction, I just thought that I'd throw something just as crazy back in there so



I buy boots because the CF has failed to get me what I need...I know, story of everyone's life in the CF.  

I was just curious, because Mess Dress is a must-have for officers and you are forced to shell out for it. We can't really have a 'if you want to wear it' kind of dress/ceremonial uniform...IMHO.


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## Michael OLeary (25 Feb 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> We can't really have a 'if you want to wear it' kind of dress/ceremonial uniform...IMHO.



If we did that we'd be competing with the Legion of Frontiersmen who nicely fill that niche in the Empire.


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## dapaterson (25 Feb 2009)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> *STICKS*
> 
> 346. The approved swagger stick for officers is the Woolwich pattern, brown leather covered, approximately 24 inches long by 3/4 of an inch in diameter.
> 
> ...



Note that all members of the Regular Force have been placed on active service when in Canada or abroad, so if this still stands, sticks are never to be carried by the Reg F, only by Reservists in Canada who are not on active service (as the same OIC placed all Reservists on active service when overseas).


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## chris_log (25 Feb 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> If we did that we'd be competing with the Legion of Frontiersmen who nicely fill that niche in the Empire.



Those are the invent-a-medal guys, correct?


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## Snakedoc (25 Feb 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> We can't really have a 'if you want to wear it' kind of dress/ceremonial uniform...IMHO.



We already have this with the Navy high-collar whites.  They are authorized for wear but not mandatory.


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## chris_log (25 Feb 2009)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> We already have this with the Navy high-collar whites.  They are authorized for wear but not mandatory.



Ah, forgot about those. But, correct me if I am wrong...aren't they in the 'not mandatory, but get them anyways because you're an officer' category? I know some recently commissioned navy folks I know were 'highly advised' to get that order of dress in addition to their mess dress. 

Edit: To be honest, if I was a sailor I'd probably invest in those. That order of dress is second only to a piper in full highland regelia in overall 'cool-ness'.


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Feb 2009)

My Regiment's Officers and Snr NCOs wear patrols, and we are in the process of establishing the viability\ need for the Jr ranks. Many of the Reserve Armoured Recce regiments wear them. I wear my DEU once a year at the Men's Xmas dinner. All the rest of the times, when not in CADPAT (or Mess Kit) we are in Patrols. You'll find the reference for them in Ch 5 of the Dress Regs - A-PD-201-000/PT-000



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> That order of dress is second only to a piper in full highland regelia in overall 'cool-ness'.



Don't be so sure. The chain mail eppaulettes and spurs have turned more than one damsels head


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## chris_log (25 Feb 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Don't be so sure. The chain mail eppaulettes and spurs have turned more than one damsels head



 :rofl:

How old ARE you?


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Feb 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> How old ARE you?



Old enough to know and practice the difference between treachery and youthful exuberance  > To paraphrase another old bastard around here, first I reached the rank of centurion, then I drove one (for 3 years ;D. Tripwire for NATO, and all that)

The chain mail and spurs are part of the current patrol dress


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## chris_log (25 Feb 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Old enough to know and practice the difference between treachery and youthful exuberance  > To paraphrase another old ******* around here, first I reached the rank of centurion, then I drove one (for 3 years ;D. Tripwire for NATO, and all that)
> 
> The chain mail and spurs are part of the current patrol dress



Ahhh...back when Jesus was a corporal too I assume?  ;D


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## IntlBr (25 Feb 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> My Regiment's Officers and Snr NCOs wear patrols, and we are in the process of establishing the viability\ need for the Jr ranks. Many of the Reserve Armoured Recce regiments wear them. I wear my DEU once a year at the Men's Xmas dinner. All the rest of the times, when not in CADPAT (or Mess Kit) we are in Patrols. You'll find the reference for them in Ch 5 of the Dress Regs - A-PD-201-000/PT-000
> 
> Don't be so sure. The chain mail eppaulettes and spurs have turned more than one damsels head



I've always been a little confused that the PRes was able to retain Patrol Dress as an optional item (along with NavRes and RegF Navy) yet the RegF Army was not.  I assume you're PRes then recce?


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## Loachman (25 Feb 2009)

Corps of Guides said:
			
		

> I've always been a little confused that the PRes was able to retain Patrol Dress as an optional item (along with NavRes and RegF Navy) yet the RegF Army was not.



The Navy did/does not wear Patrol Dress.

Nor did the PRes retain the NavRes and RegF Navy as an optional item.


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## medaid (25 Feb 2009)

We weat high collar "choker" whites in the Navy.


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Feb 2009)

Corps of Guides said:
			
		

> I've always been a little confused that the PRes was able to retain Patrol Dress as an optional item (along with NavRes and RegF Navy) yet the RegF Army was not.  I assume you're PRes then recce?



Am now :nod:


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## IntlBr (25 Feb 2009)

Loachman said:
			
		

> The Navy did/does not wear Patrol Dress.
> 
> Nor did the PRes retain the NavRes and RegF Navy as an optional item.



I know... High Collar Whites are the "summer" (tropical) version of Patrol Dress - reference the various PRes bands which parade in them in summer months, as stipulated in the Dress Instructions.


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## Loachman (25 Feb 2009)

mover1 said:
			
		

> So no more handlebar moustaches!



Urinate elsewhere.

Even if mine technically isn't.


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## Michael OLeary (25 Feb 2009)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Urinate elsewhere.
> 
> Even if mine technically isn't.



That's OK Loachman, you would just change from being a dashing young pilot with a great mustache, to being a dashing young pilot with a great disdain for mustache regulations and orders.


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## my72jeep (25 Feb 2009)

The Anti-Royal said:
			
		

> I still have mine, as well.  There was at least one occasion, however, where it was carried outside 2 RCR lines (perhaps with an attendant bending of the rules).
> 
> In the spring of 1985, I reported to the RCR Battle School as an augmentee course officer and had brought my ash plant.  The RSM gently asked me, "What the f*&k, sir, is that?".  I guess I made it to the Adjt's office just before Mr. Riley got to the CO, and was authorized to carry it.
> That wasn't Joe Riley formally of the Guards was it? If it was I can see why you made a bee line for the Adj's office.


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## Old Sweat (25 Feb 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> That's OK Loachman, you would just change from being a dashing young pilot with a great mustache, to being a dashing young pilot with a great disdain for mustache regulations and orders.



I used to get some flak from the RSM via the adjutant when I was the BC D Bty over my moustache. The dress regulations said something about moustaches not growing beyond the corner of the mouth. Unfortunately the drawing that had gone to the clothing and dress committee was of the Fu Manchu droopy version, not the big handlebar. The adjutant didn't have the balls to take it to the CO, even when I called him, well, some names majors could use to the adjutant.

Loachman, I knew there was something I liked about you besides your tac hel background.

As four patrols, I am of two minds. The order of dress required a lot of upkeep, was not too practical and cost an arm and a leg. It may have, however, saved my butt one night when I was orderly officer in 1 RCHA and I had to intervene in a dangerous situation involving alcohol, adultery and a loaded firearm. Maybe, just maybe, being instantly recognizable as an officer bought me a few seconds to start a discussion with a poor, screwed up troop whose life suddenly had gone way off the rails.


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## The Anti-Royal (26 Feb 2009)

It certainly was.


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## Servicepub (27 Mar 2009)

Back to sticks.
At one point, Routine Orders called for soldiers to have a stick in their possession when 'walking out' i.e., leaving camp. Countless photos, up to the Second World War show soldiers of all ranks holding sticks - often supplied by the photographer as a standard prop. In the 18th and 19th centuries the stick was often a soldier's 'weapon' to beat away pesky dogs and peskier civilians who blocked his route.  Until the 1960's (and later in some regiments) a 'stick' was the Colonel's prize to the best soldier - who then carried this for a day or week.
The officers' stick came from the riding crop and was more a badge of class than it was of rank. Again, with the 1968 disappearance of the British-patterned uniform, salute, rank badges et al, the swagger stick also disappeared. The exception is the CMP where an officer may still obtain, upon signature, a riding crop from the Stores in Regina - even though he has no opportunity to carry it.


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## Michael OLeary (29 Mar 2009)

From the Regimental Standing Orders of The RCR, 1960
http://regimentalrogue.com/rcrbadges/rcr-dress_regs_1960.html

Chapter II - Dress Regulations



> 265.     Officer's swagger sticks will be a dark malacca cane with a silver ferrule and knob. The Regimental Crest will be mounted centrally on the top of the ball knob. When the stick is placed or carried under the left arm the ferrule will be to the front.
> 
> 266.     The regimental swagger sticks will be 26 inches in overall length, a dark malacca cane with a white metal ferrule and knob. The regimental cap badge 7/8 inch in size will be embossed centrally on the knob. The knob will be 1 3/4 inches in length, the ferrule 3/4 inch. The stick will be carried by Junior Non-Commissioned Officers.
> 
> ...



(The 1967 edition has the same information.)


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## Loachman (29 Mar 2009)

I still have one of the Junior NCO canes.


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