# C-7 and firing of blanks



## rcrman (31 Mar 2004)

Just a question. Does anyone know the maximum safest distance when firing blanks at someone??? How close is too close? It there a PAM on safety when firing blanks?

Thanks,

Need real accurate info on this one folks.


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## Jarnhamar (31 Mar 2004)

Is that firing a blank with the bfa on or without the bfa and a piece of the cleaning rod jammed down the barrel a la speargun style?


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## rcrman (31 Mar 2004)

With BFA on, less than 2 feet away from another trooper.


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## Mike Bobbitt (31 Mar 2004)

Grubby,

Please post your question just once. Cross posting won‘t get you any new answers, but will clutter the board.


Thanks


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## Ex-Dragoon (31 Mar 2004)

If some damage was done you might need to go through your unit legal and medical staff to document the event.


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## MJP (31 Mar 2004)

Check out your unit range box or library, find the Training Safety Manual (aka the Bible).  It details out safety ranges for pretty much everything.  Not to mention a way better source than us internet junkies trying to remember our last exercise safety brief.


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## brin11 (31 Mar 2004)

I will try to look it up for you tomorrow night.


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## Michael OLeary (31 Mar 2004)

B-GL-381-001/TS-001

Operational Training
TRAINING SAFETY

	Chapter 1, Article 127

"The danger area for blank small arms ammunition is 20 m."


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## Jarnhamar (31 Mar 2004)

..


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## rcrman (31 Mar 2004)

Thanks all for the help !!

Cheers,

Grubby


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## Canadian Patriot (31 Mar 2004)

I‘m going to the range this weekend, and last weekend I had to sign a form with a whole bunch of stuff on it saying what I couldn‘t do at the range. One of the points was something along the lines of "No firing blanks at another person within 20 metres." I don‘t know if thats with BFA attached or not, but I was told somewhere that we never fire blanks without a BFA on.


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## rcrman (31 Mar 2004)

Yeah it was dangerous. To add, this did not happen on a range, but during an attack. The general word seems 20 Meters, seems logical. The particular individual fired as less then the length of the service wpn away point black at another soldier. Any comments?

Again thanks all, this web site is a valuable source of info.  :mg:   way too close in my books !!


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## Thompson_JM (31 Mar 2004)

I remember on basic the enemy force raided our trenches and one sleep fudged Pte(r) fired off about 80-120 rounds from his C9 right at the En forces face... 

Mind you it was then enemy forces fault on that one.. they were trying to take out the trenches hand to hand style, and we were never really breifed on ROE‘s or what to do if that happened..


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## Ex-Dragoon (31 Mar 2004)

"I don‘t know if thats with BFA attached or not, but I was told somewhere that we never fire blanks without a BFA on."

I have never been part of 21 gun salute or anything like that but since they use blanks and make chamber/eject blank rounds you would have to leave the BFA off in this case. Correct me if I am wrong.


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## Jarnhamar (31 Mar 2004)

21 gun salute the BFA stays off, ive done 2 of them.

Grubby, 20 meters is 60 feet.  I can remember many engagements with blanks that took place closer than 60 feet. ESPECIALLY in fibua situations where its 3 or 4 feet.  Unless the soldier in question held the c7 up to someonesbface, on purpose, and was being an ******* about it i wouldnt make waves.


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## Slim (1 Apr 2004)

John Erik Hexum, an actor, was killed on set with a blank fired from a .44 Cal revolver when he placed the barrel of the weapon near his temple and pulled the trigger.

The expanding gases from the round impacted on the side of the actor‘s head, driving large fragments of bone into the actor‘s brain, killing him instantly.

Mr Hexum was not properly schooled in the use of weapons with blank ammunition. It cost him his life.

Enough said?!


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## Redeye (1 Apr 2004)

Brandon Lee died in a similar fashion, something like wadding from a blank struck and killed him.


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## casey916 (1 Apr 2004)

I just got done a tasking at the Infantry School in Gagetown, where I was demo for LOFT, CAP, and DP3A and the saftey distance we were told in reference to blanks was 10 meters, with the bloody BFA on.  The only time we took off the BFA was to make the shoot sound louder when we were attacking sleep deprived officers on CAP.  It‘s an interesting sight to see


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## Jarnhamar (1 Apr 2004)

So you willingly  created a safty violation and endangered students. Hummmmmmm


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## MJP (1 Apr 2004)

I‘ve seen it done before on a few leadership courses.  Mind you the range was 200-400 meters and its intention was to simulate a det opening up on an advance w/o the good old "oh my god the enemy force just stood up and took a shot at us".

In every case the BFA was back on before safety was even an issue.


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## 1feral1 (1 Apr 2004)

During trg, its BFAs no exceptions! No tampering of any blakns is allowed either.

As for volleys, no BFA, and there is even proper drill movements etc (for ejecting and loading).

Regards,

Wes


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## casey916 (1 Apr 2004)

That is what I mean MJP, we were at least 500 meters away.. because the candidates were so used to hearing the blanks from the C-7 with the BFA on, so we were told to do this to give a different sound, which put them on their toes.  As we advance, we would put our BFA‘s back on


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (1 Apr 2004)

Don‘t you mean "Who Dares, Wins" or "Who Cares Who Wins"?


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## 1feral1 (2 Apr 2004)

Nope my motto is ‘Who Dares Grins‘. Dunno about the other bloke. Hey WTF is  L/MCPL? Some kind of regt‘al rank?

Every yr my regt has a ‘Who Dares Grins‘ award, which is usually presnted to someone who does something unique in one of our pub crawls.

We often do a recce on Kings Cross, Sydney‘s red light district, and its very bent to say the least. As liberal almost as Amsterdam, but I wont go futher on here.

On some occasions when the US Navy is in port, one see‘s the NSWPS, the RAN Police and the USN SP walking in threes to keep the lads at bay. Billy clubs and all of the fun stuff too.

Paddy wagons, sirens, sailors running out of control, almost like something off a movie. The the fights between Army and Navy etc. Some things never change.

Cheers,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (2 Apr 2004)

For RNBR CPL -

Mate removing BFAs in trg for a different signature is foolhardy, and alls it takes is one PTE who is all hyped up, to attach it loosely or incorrectly, and then when he comes into range to start shooting again, the BFA flys off, striking someone in the face or chest. I have seen BFAs from the ole C1 and C7 fly off, up to ranges of 20-30m and with a fair bit of grunt behind them.

I have also seen our BFAs come off our F88 IWs too, and they screw on! Our C9 and C6 have BFBs (Blank firing Bbls) which are dedicated for blank use only, utilising BFNs (Blank Firing Nuts). 

If memory serves me corrctly its a 7 metre danger radius for the ADF when using SAA blanks.

If you want a different signature make arrangements well in advance to draw EN wpns such as AKs if you can (we have em here). If not C9s and C6s have a different bark than the C7‘s.

If all else fails stay with what you have. It is a military offence to tamper with BFAs and blanks. 

Use T-flashes, smk and CS grenades, and maybe arty sims to add some realism and panic for them. The CS and smk mixes, and really suprises em (hehe)!

Whoever was incharge of the EN attack should have been properly de-briefed for his short comings on the removal of BFAs, and informed on the subject matter no matter how harmless the event may have seemed.

Cheers and beers,

Wes


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## CF_MacAulay (7 Apr 2004)

Hey, i was talking to a CPL. of mine, and he told me a story about blanks, this doesnt really have ne thing to do with the range, but its an interesting story, a group of soldiers went to Virginia, to doa FIBUA exercise, and while they were training they used blanks with BFA‘s, well somehow, the americans didnt check the ammo right, or the soldier firing, because a live round got mixed with the blanks, firing off with the bfa sent shrapnel into one soldiers face and arms, and anothers arms...it was quite the story, so i guess this is more of just a reminder to check your ammo wether it be blanks, dummy, live, w/e...better safe, then have shrapnel in your face eh?


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## portcullisguy (7 Apr 2004)

"Live ammo" just does NOT get "mixed" with blanks - the two don‘t look anything alike, not even in the dark.

Just as there are no such thing as accidental shootings, the situation you described clearly involved someone‘s wilful negligence or outright dangerous actions.

That sounds like a story meant to scare troops straight and have them use extra caution when out in the field blatting off rounds.

In a CF training area, I can‘t even think of a good reason for live ammunition to be present in any area that isn‘t an actual range - eg, your biv area, or a FIBUA site.  Someone would have to bring their own, or remove it from another range, and that would be a clear violation of QR&O‘s.


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## 1feral1 (7 Apr 2004)

Meanwhile in Australia......


A while back at an ADI ammo facility, 5.56mm ball and blank were somehow mixed, and a few rds of ball was somehow placed lots of bagged blank.

Our 5.56mm blanks come in plastic bags loose of 200rds.

So there was an incident where a ball rd was fired from a Minimi with a BFB on. Lucky no one was hurt. Our 5.56mmblanks are NOT like the Cdn or US ones, but like the UK type, and in looks similar to the IVI 7.62mm style. The incident happened at night, where it from a sealed bag.

So current Army policy is a NCO must inspect the blanks issued to his section, prior to them being loaded.

The whole thing has caused a big giant logistical nightmare.

So it can happen.

Cheers,

Wes


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