# CF Replaces "Arty-Sim-ed" Porta Pottie @ Gagetown



## The Bread Guy (25 Feb 2010)

This, from the Canadian Press, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._:


> It sounds like a comic sketch from MASH, but the Canadian Forces have issued a warning after someone blew up a Port-a-Pottie.
> 
> In December, an ammunition platoon from Canadian Forces Base Gagetown in New Brunswick was called in to investigate after someone levelled a latrine with a pyrotechnic used to simulate the flash and bang of artillery or mortar fire.
> 
> ...


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## davidk (25 Feb 2010)

It may fall under urban legend, but I remember hearing that something like this happened at Farnham years ago...the same story also explained why they no longer have screen doors at the kitchen.


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## jeffb (25 Feb 2010)

I've seen an arty sim "deployed" in  a shed that was about 10 x 10 and it was quite impressive. I can only imagine what it would have done to a blue rocket! Obviously it's not cool to blow up a porta pottie but I'd love to see the photos!  ;D


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## Haggis (25 Feb 2010)

I was the victim of an enclosed space Arty sim detonation many years ago in Petawawa.  While OPFOR, I was on the second floor of a building on the old NST (MOUT) site.  I had used sections of the partially collapsed ceiling/roof as cover, crawling back under the debris with a perfect firing position towards the top of the stairs.  I then pulled my combat jacket up in front of my face and head and waited for the attackers.

Two soldiers gained lodgement on my floor and I fired at both.  They retreated down the stairs but a third rolled an Arty sim into my "spider hole".  It went off about 2 feet from me, shredding my jacket with debris and shaking the living shyte out of me.  Then all three charged in and "killed" me.

When I emerged, all three started to laugh as I looked like a character from a Stephen King movie, dazed, covered in dust and wild eyed with smoke drifting around me.  The laughing stopped when I attempted to throw the section commander down the stairs.  I couldn't hear right for about three or four days and had headaches for almost a week.


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## Kat Stevens (25 Feb 2010)

On my CLC/JLC/JNCO/IDGAF  we had a DS who decided to sneak up on our trench from the rear one beautiful frozen Wainwright night, and toss an Arty Sim into our hole "to check our reaction time".  I then set to work booby trapping the hell out of the area around my trench... ankle traps, snares, spring branches, the lot.  No more nocturnal visits after the same instructor got a flying branch in the throat.  He's lucky I wasn't angry, or it would have been sharpened.


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## OldSolduer (25 Feb 2010)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I was the victim of an enclosed space Arty sim detonation many years ago in Petawawa.  While OPFOR, I was on the second floor of a building on the old NST (MOUT) site.  I had used sections of the partially collapsed ceiling/roof as cover, crawling back under the debris with a perfect firing position towards the top of the stairs.  I then pulled my combat jacket up in front of my face and head and waited for the attackers.
> 
> Two soldiers gained lodgement on my floor and I fired at both.  They retreated down the stairs but a third rolled an Arty sim into my "spider hole".  It went off about 2 feet from me,



They should have been charged, and fined a huge sum of money. It's too bad you didn't  throw the knob down the stairs. There is a safety distance when using pyro, a rule that some dorks forget.


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## Haggis (25 Feb 2010)

Mid Aged Silverback said:
			
		

> They should have been charged, and fined a huge sum of money. It's too bad you didn't  throw the knob down the stairs. There is a safety distance when using pyro, a rule that some dorks forget.



Agreed, but ya gotta remember this was the 80's!  You've been around as long as I have and I'm sure that you have seen lotsa stuff happen (like this) that folks would go to jail for today.  It was a different time back then.


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## Bonko (25 Feb 2010)

While out in beautiful Meaford on my SQ one of the guys in the next platoon over to us got up close and personal with an arty sim and it burnt his nice little hooch to smithereens. Same course as well we put one in an empty 7.62 ammo box and that thing must have gone around 75 meters in the area and nearly fell through the OC's tent!


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## Haggis (26 Feb 2010)

Bonko said:
			
		

> Same course as well we put one in an empty 7.62 ammo box and that thing must have gone around 75 meters in the area and nearly fell through the OC's tent!



And you're damned lucky it didn't shatter and spray shrapnel among your coursemates.

Dumb, dumb thing to do.


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## OldSolduer (26 Feb 2010)

Haggis said:
			
		

> And you're damned lucky it didn't shatter and spray shrapnel among your coursemates.
> 
> Dumb, dumb thing to do.



Concur. Really very stupid.


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## ammocat (26 Feb 2010)

Agreed, Arty Sim in an ammo can, dumb thing to do. In my opinion, the Arty Sim is the most dangerous ammunition item in the CF inventory. Incidents like this Porta Pottie happen frequently. On the plus side at least no one was hurt. It is not available through the internet, but for those with DIN access, the DAER website has a summary of all (reported) ammunition accidents and incidents. If you scroll through them, the Arty Sim seems to pop up a lot. Mostly improper handling and improper disposal, personnel receiving burns from trying to cut open or burn duds, etc.

They may only contain 45g of photoflash powder, but with a little confinement, it can do a lot of damage.


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## Bonko (26 Feb 2010)

My apologies on that last one. Two of our staff did it to illustrate how dangerous it is....the Course WO was not impressed.


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## Ammo (26 Feb 2010)

This accident happened for real, ther is an artcile about it in the Safety Digest (Edition 2 2010) for those who have access to the intranet (not sure if DSafeG is availble on the internet. There are all kinds of safety precautions associated with the item (To prevent
possible injury to ears, these simulators are not to be functioned closer than 15 m to personnel. Personnel closer than 35 m should expect a missile hazard, and must take cover to protect exposed parts of the body such as the face. These simulators will not be used in confined spaces as this will greatly increase the effect of the explosion.) which hopefully are passed on the users.
No excuse for stupidity


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## ammocat (26 Feb 2010)

Unfortunately things like that are common place. Part if it is probably due to the attitude that pers generally have toward pyrotechnics. Before going to a range we conduct TOET's on the applicable weapon. Grenade ranges, rocket range (M-72/84mm), etc usually have a number of A/RSO's. Pyro's we will give to anyone. I have seen cases of untrained personnel handling pyrotechnics with the explanation that the instructions are on it.  Looking back over my military career I can recall several unauthorized uses of pyrotechnics, but at the time the Sgt said to do it and that was good enough for me.


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## Haggis (26 Feb 2010)

The Safety Digest is available on the Internet.


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## Ammo (26 Feb 2010)

Thanks for the info.
By the way, while on the subject of safety, did you know that there are restrictions on the use of the Thunderflash. QUOTE NOT TO BE USED WITHIN 10M OF PERSONNEL AND THAT ALL PERSONNEL WITHIN 30M FROM POINT OF INITIATION SHALL WEAR BALLISTIC EYEWEAR. DURING FUNCTIONING, NOISE LEVELS CAN REACH THE MAXIMUM LIMIT FOR UNPROTECTED HEARING (140 DB AT 10M FROM POINT OF INITIATION) AND THAT SUBASSEMBLY CAN BE EJECTED CREATING A MISSILE HAZARD UP TO 30M UNQUOTE
Thought that I would pass on some explosive safety stuff...


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## LineJumper (26 Feb 2010)

Ammo said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info.
> By the way, while on the subject of safety, did you know that there are restrictions on the use of the Thunderflash. QUOTE NOT TO BE USED WITHIN 10M OF PERSONNEL AND THAT ALL PERSONNEL WITHIN 30M FROM POINT OF INITIATION SHALL WEAR BALLISTIC EYEWEAR. DURING FUNCTIONING, NOISE LEVELS CAN REACH THE MAXIMUM LIMIT FOR UNPROTECTED HEARING (140 DB AT 10M FROM POINT OF INITIATION) AND THAT SUBASSEMBLY CAN BE EJECTED CREATING A MISSILE HAZARD UP TO 30M UNQUOTE
> Thought that I would pass on some explosive safety stuff...



To further this, if you find yourself in OPFOR and wearing clothing you are not normally accustomed to, try a few practice throws, lest your arms get hampered by said clothing from different positions causing less than spactacular results on your own position....


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## PanaEng (26 Feb 2010)

ammocat said:
			
		

> In my opinion, the Arty Sim is the most dangerous ammunition item in the CF inventory.


I thought it was the immersion heater...


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## TN2IC (26 Feb 2010)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> I thought it was the immersion heater...



Plus toilet paper...  >


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## derael (26 Feb 2010)

I've had one of these things go off right in front of me  no more than 10m away the last time I was in Farnham. 

That is one bright flash at night. I wish I would have had time to turn away. A very disorientating experience.

Better yet, it was an officer that tossed it right in front of us.  :-\


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## CountDC (3 Mar 2010)

Wow - bringing back memories!!

85 - burned down tree with trip flare that Sgt had hooked up

86 - attackiing enemy posn, enemy throws arty sim directly at us and hits the guy next to me in chest who thankfully had quick reflexes and a bit of luck.  He very quickly back pedalled before the bloody thing went bang.  Neither of us was too impressed with the enemy soldier with his head sticking out of the trench and laughing.  I am sure some of you here remember what happens to a head sticking out of a trench during an attack in the 80's (maybe even still happens?).  Double field goal that day.


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## Nfld Sapper (3 Mar 2010)

Sounds like the staff I had on my Leadership Course..... threw arty-sims at us and refused to mark the ones that did not go off or inform Range Control.... They even tried to detonate it with another arty sim...... Good thing we had a section Engineers some even Reg Force... so we marked them with foot powder and took Grids of them and sent them into Range Control.....


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## PanaEng (3 Mar 2010)

meh!
next fire in the range/trg area will get rid of it along with some the blanks that students get rid of so that they don't have to clean their weapons too much... or the weather will get to the igniter and the compound and render it safe [/cynicism]


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## my72jeep (3 Mar 2010)

Bonko said:
			
		

> While out in beautiful Meaford on my SQ one of the guys in the next platoon over to us got up close and personal with an arty sim and it burnt his nice little hooch to smithereens. Same course as well we put one in an empty 7.62 ammo box and that thing must have gone around 75 meters in the area and nearly fell through the OC's tent!



back in the late 80's putting a ammo can upside down over an arty sim with out lid was sop during a safety demo just to show the power of it.  100 ft in the air was average. and trust me Gagetown is not new to arty sims in the porti johns.


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## CountDC (4 Mar 2010)

our sgt used a helmet  - it flew good too.


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## OldSolduer (4 Mar 2010)

This thread reminds me of the SCTV skit - Farm Film Report.

"It blowed up"

"Blowed up reel gud" ;D


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## LineJumper (4 Mar 2010)

Heh heh heh, I loved SCTV. I always liked the garbagecan full of water with said arty sim tossed in the SSF showcase.


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## SeaKingTacco (6 Mar 2010)

I recall a night platoon attack during my Ph 2 Artillery Course where paraflares got used like M-72s.  It is a wonder that any of us lived through the 80s...


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## SprCForr (8 Mar 2010)

Arty sims in Gagetown. Chainguns in Suffield. Range fires in Wainwright.

Poor defenceless blue rockets!  ;D


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## OldSolduer (8 Mar 2010)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I recall a night platoon attack during my Ph 2 Artillery Course where paraflares got used like M-72s.  It is a wonder that any of us lived through the 80s...


One of my peers did this on ex in the mid 80's and bragged about it. I just shook my head and wondered where some people got their brains.....they heard trains and took a slow one.


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## LineJumper (11 Mar 2010)

Heh heh heh, I remember when we changed from the pull string para-flare to the twist type. One of the troops was about to launch and I noticed he was wearing the wool inserts.

"You might want to put on leather or take those off, otherwise WHOOOOSH.....Thunk!". "Damn, that burned my glove!". "Yep, slippery sucker eh?"

Ah well, now we contend with that slide safety that I find is somewhat sticky in the cold environment. :camo:


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## chrisf (11 Mar 2010)

The safety isn't too sturdy, if it sticks, a good solid twist, the safety fails, and the flare fires.

It's enough to stop it from firing accidentally, but the first dozen or so of the newest ones I fired I couldn't actually figure out how the safety worked, I just twisted hard and it fired.

Don't know if anyone's thrown the "new" t-flashes, but they seem to be safer then the old ones... the tubes are sturdier and wrapped in plastic, they blow out the ends, rather then exploding in the centre... makes spotting duds harder, but in the even one ever went off in your hand, you'd probably have a better chance of walking away with your fingers...


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## ArmyRick (11 Mar 2010)

Reference the arty sim in an ammo can demonstration. My course WO did the same demo on my QL3 Infantry (Wainwright PPCLI). Funny. 

Damn thing blew sky high and came down all warped.


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## tango22a (11 Mar 2010)

Can remember when a certain Regiment acted as Enemy during an exercise in the early 70s. We were mounted on Lynxes and M113s and I can remember more than a few paraflares hitting our vehicles. A big blob of light hitting the trim vane of my M113 and ricocheting overhead. And then there was the infanteer we captured with about twenty thunderflashes inside his combat shirt with the handles cut off, leaving only the charge !!! And then there was the bright soul who fired a 20 Pounder  blank across  an open 21/2 ton loaded with gas in jerry cans.

Boy we sure were stupid (and exceedingly lucky!!) in our younger days.


tango22a


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## OldSolduer (11 Mar 2010)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Reference the arty sim in an ammo can demonstration. My course WO did the same demo on my QL3 Infantry (Wainwright PPCLI). Funny.
> 
> Damn thing blew sky high and came down all warped.



thats cuz your crse WO was warped.... >


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## kj_gully (13 Mar 2010)

The units I was in in 80z early nineties, the only pyro we saw was during the helmet/ammocan "safety" demonstration. Maybe the section 2ic might be lucky enough to get a pains wessex smoke, so we could get our nostrils all purple. Nothing keeps the troops safe like not having pyro to issue! If anyone would have wasted an arty sim on an EMPTY blue rocket (now you know where the nickname comes from) i would want them charged for wasting a good piece of battle sim


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## TN2IC (13 Mar 2010)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I recall a night platoon attack during my Ph 2 Artillery Course where paraflares got used like M-72s.  It is a wonder that any of us lived through the 80s...



Ha! I had a young Pte (OPFOR) fire a paraflare like it was a RPG at a Griffon! This was around Area 50.. in Gagetown.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Mar 2010)

TN2IC said:
			
		

> Ha! I had a young Pte (OPFOR) fire a paraflare like it was a RPG at a Griffon! This was around Area 50.. in Gagetown.



I hope you ensured he was charged.


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Mar 2010)

TN2IC said:
			
		

> Ha! I had a young Pte (OPFOR) fire a paraflare like it was a RPG at a Griffon! This was around Area 50.. in Gagetown.





			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> I hope you ensured he was charged.



I second that.....


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## Loachman (13 Mar 2010)

If I ever catch some stupid little fucker doing that, a charge will be the least of his worries, and whatever happens to me as a result will be more than worth it.


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## Loachman (13 Mar 2010)

And I am a very kind, gentle, and forgiving chap as well.


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## TN2IC (13 Mar 2010)

This person was dealt with correctly. I personanlly don't think it was his intentions to do such a thing. He was instruted to fire it off at 2000hrs and he did. Just by luck, there was a Griffon flying around. Didn't hit it, thank god.


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## Loachman (13 Mar 2010)

You did say "fire a paraflare like it was a RPG at a Griffon", implying intent, did you not...?


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## CountDC (16 Mar 2010)

that is the way it sounded.

Wording - have to be careful how you say it.


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## DirtyDog (27 Mar 2010)

I very recently (within a year) had a arty sim thrown into a seacan that was part of a village we were attacking.  It made for some exciting training to say the least.  I remember hearing it whistle and thinking "I might want to cover my ears now".  When it went off I thought the seacan roof and walls were going to blow off....  Quite the concussion.  Good times.

Would I as an instructor have thrown one in?  Probably not... the risk is kinda high.  However, I'm not one to get offended when such things are practiced on me.  It certainly adds an element of realism and danger.


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## ammocat (27 Mar 2010)

Regardless of how you feel about this realism and danger, this is a prime example of pyrotechnics being misused. Inside a sea container is clearly a violation of training safety "Ground-burst simulators shall NOT be thrown within 15 m of personnel, and 100 m of material, equipment and vehicles." and "Do NOT use the ground-burst simulator in confined spaces such as buildings, vehicles, trenches or weapon pits because these confined areas dangerously increase the effect of the explosion." 

Would you feel the same way about the realism if the whistle malfunctioned and you didn't realize that it was in the sea container and you were injured. Or what  if a lesser experienced soldier was present and didn't have the common sense or knowledge to seek cover. The permanent damage that can be done to ears, eyes, and the burns that can be received do not make this an acceptable practice. Having a soldier injured by any means in unacceptable, but by mishandling of ammunition makes it even worse and in the long run can cause the rest of the unit more strain when they have to take up the slack of the missing member. This is not realism, this is a violation of drill and training, and it is inexcusable.


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## CountDC (29 Mar 2010)

willl said ammo.  

Then there is the resources used for both the criminal investigation and the BOI/SI that will happen.  See enough of the "stupid" category of those crossing my desk that cause a stiff neck from shaking the head so much.


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## zipperhead_cop (29 Mar 2010)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Would I as an instructor have thrown one in?  Probably not... the risk is kinda high.  However, I'm not one to get offended when such things are practiced on me.  It certainly adds an element of realism and danger.



Ya, safety is for loozers!  Man up, you sissies!

You are going to be the ultimate butts NCO on the mortar range!  Pro Patria!!


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## DirtyDog (29 Mar 2010)

Like I said, I wouldn't do it.  I'm sure it was a calculated risk and not as overly reckless as one might think.  It was at the other end seperated by a couple of rooms. 

Anyway.... no harm.... no foul.....


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## Loachman (29 Mar 2010)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> I'm sure it was a calculated risk and not as overly reckless as one might think.



I doubt that. Our position in a woodline in Germany was attacked by a JLC which was exercising in the same area one night. Three arty sims detonated beneath our fuel bowser. I doubt that any of those twits calculated much at all.



			
				DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Anyway.... no harm.... no foul.....



There wasn't in the case described above, either, but there was plenty of potential for very spectacular, embarrassing, expensive, and deadly harm and foul.

Stupidity is no excuse for putting people's lives and well-being in jeopardy.


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## DirtyDog (29 Mar 2010)

Like I said, I didn't get worked up about it then, I'm not about to now.

I didn't feel I was in danger at the time and it wasn't just a reckless throw.  Granted, detonating one within any kind of confined space is probably not advisable but the given the situation, the only real harm could have came from concussion/hearing damage.  But then, we should always be wearing ear pro which should mitigate some of that.


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## OldSolduer (30 Mar 2010)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Like I said, I wouldn't do it.  I'm sure it was a calculated risk and not as overly reckless as one might think.  It was at the other end seperated by a couple of rooms.
> 
> Anyway.... no harm.... no foul.....



Cough...BS....

There is no room for such "Miscalculations". It was not a "Calculated risk" but a reckless act. What if you're hearing is shot in 10 years? If your hearing is  gone, then so are you. Right out of the CF.
You are excusing stupidity. What is The RCR Motto? Never pass a fault.....and you are.


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## Greymatters (30 Mar 2010)

Prior to 1990 figuring out new ways to mis-use pyrotechnics and similiar materials was pretty common.  Associated rules and regs were notional guidelines rather than standards of practice.  Of note, it wasnt a young ignorant privates like myself thinking up these ideas, it was usually senior exprienced corporals, masters-c's and sergeants teaching myself and others how to really do things improperly, like how to fire a flashbang from a C1 like an RPG.

I think the many conflicts the CF has been involved in since then have increased the awareness of most members so that these types of incidents arent as common as they used to be, but no doubt they still occur.

Although I must admit being guilty of allowing myself as a Sgt to be taught how to make and use an MRE 'canteen bomb' circa 2001.  All in the name of learning about field-based improvised weapons of course...


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