# Requesting Help IDing an Item



## Marauder (1 Sep 2013)

A member if my wife's family found the item in the attached pictures while cleaning out their home in preparation for moving. Her family knows I am a reservist, and so it was passed along to me to keep if I wished since it "kinda looked military related". 

The person who gave it to me didn't know what it was, who brought it into the family, or why it came into their possession other that likely getting a "box of stuff" while cleaning out a deceased relative's home.

I believe that is an RCR cap badge on the metal work (I think with an older style crown?) and I think it is some manner of drill item(?). The iPhone should give a size comparison, and there is some faint stamping in the metal which I believe says "F.N. Byham" with "England" underneath it. A quick cruise of Google doesn't return anything pertinent to that name. 

Hoping someone can shed some light on what this item is and when it might have seen service.


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## Michael OLeary (1 Sep 2013)

It's a swagger stick.

Without a better image of the badge, I'd say it's no earlier than a 1930's pattern. carried by all ranks as part of walking out dress in that period.

Standing Orders of The Royal Canadian Regiment (1935)



> Walking-Out Order.
> 
> (a)        Coloured Clothing. Scarlet tunic or serge as ordered, blue trousers, belt and swagger stick.
> 
> ...



From an earlier era, here is Sgt George Webb with his swagger stick in a studio photo:


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## Towards_the_gap (1 Sep 2013)

Michael O'Leary beat me to it. A swagger stick. Used for encouraging horses, thrashing the local dhobi-wallahs, and helping spread Christianity and good English values.


Basically a posh way of 'carrying a big stick'.


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## Rifleman62 (2 Sep 2013)

And for striking a map, saying with a polished Brit accent: 'There, There, and There".


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## Marauder (2 Sep 2013)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> It's a swagger stick.
> 
> Without a better image of the badge, I'd say it's no earlier than a 1930's pattern. carried by all ranks as part of walking out dress in that period.



Thanks Sir; I was pretty sure you would be the person to zero me in.  :nod: I'll see about getting a better image of the cypher to post up.


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## pbi (3 Sep 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> And for striking a map, saying with a polished Brit accent: 'There, There, and There".



No, no...it's "_Heeahh, heeahh, and heeahh_"


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## Rifleman62 (3 Sep 2013)

Without my hearing aids, I thought it was .........


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## a_majoor (7 Sep 2013)

A bit curious about this bit:

Standing Orders of The Royal Canadian Regiment (1935)



> Walking-Out Order.
> 
> (a)        Coloured Clothing. Scarlet tunic or serge as ordered, blue trousers, belt and swagger stick.
> 
> ...



When did we change from a drill cane to a pace stick? (For that matter, did we change from a pace stick to a drill cane?)

Have to admit the idea of "walking out" with a side arm sounds a bit extreme in a garrison setting.


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## Michael OLeary (7 Sep 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> When did we change from a drill cane to a pace stick? (For that matter, did we change from a pace stick to a drill cane?)



By 1960, the RSOs are identifying that junior non-commissioned officers will carry a regimental swagger stick, senior non-commissioned officers a drill cane of sand coloured malacca and warrant officers would carry "regulation ordnance pattern" pace sticks. Officers carried swagger sticks of dark malacca. The 1967 RSOs provide the same details.

Sticks, other than pace sticks and the occasional drill cane, probably went out of general use with Unification.


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## Edward Campbell (7 Sep 2013)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> By 1960, the RSOs are identifying that junior non-commissioned officers will carry a regimental swagger stick, senior non-commissioned officers a drill cane of sand coloured malacca and warrant officers would carry "regulation ordnance pattern" pace sticks. Officers carried swagger sticks of dark malacca. The 1967 RSOs provide the same details.
> 
> Sticks, other than pace sticks and the occasional drill cane, probably went out of general use with Unification.




Pre-unification that was the norm: drill canes for sergeants and staff sergeants, pace sticks for WO2s and WO1s filling sergeant major appointments, and WO2s and WO1s filling other appointments could carry drill canes. In most corps and regiments, other than The RCR and the Canadian Guards, junior NCOs did not carry sticks; officers sticks and canes (Black Watch) varied widely in style, colour and material. In the 1980s, when I was a CO, the standard was that sergeants major (regimental and squadron/battery/company) and the RQMS carried pace sticks, all the time; other WOs and senior NCOs on duty or on parade without weapons carried drill canes. It varied, of course, by regiment ~ all trying to ensure that no two were exactly alike.


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## Old EO Tech (8 Sep 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Pre-unification that was the norm: drill canes for sergeants and staff sergeants, pace sticks for WO2s and WO1s filling sergeant major appointments, and WO2s and WO1s filling other appointments could carry drill canes. In most corps and regiments, other than The RCR and the Canadian Guards, junior NCOs did not carry sticks; officers sticks and canes (Black Watch) varied widely in style, colour and material. In the 1980s, when I was a CO, the standard was that sergeants major (regimental and squadron/battery/company) and the RQMS carried pace sticks, all the time; other WOs and senior NCOs on duty or on parade without weapons carried drill canes. It varied, of course, by regiment ~ all trying to ensure that no two were exactly alike.



Yes it is sad to see that these traditions have only been carried on in a adhoc fashion, relying on RSO's that in some cases are not even well understood.  It would be good to see the CA publish a baseline policy for the entire Army.  I'm sure that in Regiments with longstanding traditions that some policies are well adhered too.  I know that in 1VP all Rifle Coy CSM's carry pace sticks of course and all other WO/Sgts carry drill canes.  But in Admin Coy no one carries anything even the Inf guys, let alone guys like me(ETQMS) or the RQ.  Over in Svc Bn, non CSM MWO were not even allowed "on parade" we had to stand over with the officers.  

It seems these things are allowed to be very personality driven, and with a very poor understanding of the history behind these symbols.


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## Old Sweat (8 Sep 2013)

Just to add a bit more confusion to the officers and "sticks" issue, some armoured regiments and, from time to time depending on the CO, even an RCHA regiment or two had their officers carry riding crops. The most useful purpose I can recall of the stick/cane/crop was that it kept the officers occupied trying to figure out whose was which in the cloak room at the mess. 

My first battery commander used to toss his stick over his shoulder before going on parade. This usually resulted in we troops searching for it in the grass alongside the P lines parade square in Petawawa. Oft times said stick would be discretely booted into a storm sewer, which would keep us fruitlessly scouring the grass until the BSM had had enough. The BC's nickname was the muzzle brake, but that's for another time.


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## Towards_the_gap (8 Sep 2013)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Sticks, other than pace sticks and the occasional drill cane, probably went out of general use with Unification.



Heavens, you've just given some former honourary colonel with political clout his next 'great idea' now that he's solved the pips and crowns conundrum.


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## Lightguns (3 Oct 2013)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Heavens, you've just given some former honourary colonel with political clout his next 'great idea' now that he's solved the pips and crowns conundrum.



Excellent, I have a retirement project!  Shlite-disturbing even without a uniform!!!!


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