# Sr NCO / Officer relationship



## army

Posted by *"Martin Woods" <woodsm@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:44:02 -0700*
All:
Can anyone come up with any written references on the Sr NCO/WO/Officer
relationship?  I find this to be a growing problem in the CF.  References
from either the Officers or the NCM‘s point of view would both be helpful.
thanks
MGW
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## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:26:13 -0500*
If you‘d be willing to wait until the end of the month when Mike is again
more vailable and accessible, I am quite sure he could give you the DS
solution from the Officer/System side at least.
I can try and come up with a response from the NCO side, but it would like
to take me a few days before I pressed SEND...
Don Schepens will have a unique view, having gone from Private through Sgt,
and on up to CO/LCol...in addition to bing a ****  of as lot brighter than
me....
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Woods" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:44 PM
Subject: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
> All:
> Can anyone come up with any written references on the Sr NCO/WO/Officer
> relationship?  I find this to be a growing problem in the CF.  References
> from either the Officers or the NCM‘s point of view would both be helpful.
>
> thanks
> MGW
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army

Posted by *CoastDanny@aol.com* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:01:51 EST*
While I realize that I had only a 10 yr career in the PRes and people like Don have been around since Moses, I will risk this step into this one.
First of all, the book be damned. The relationships between Sr. NCO and Officer depends on the people involved. IF both are interested in the troops best interest then everything is fine. If one is isn‘t, well....
First off, I was taught by a family of NCMs that our role as good Sr. NCOs was to teach and thus create good officers. The best way to teach is to lead by example. I learned more from on of our "old Sgts." when I was a private by watching him. He showed that he cared more for the troops than for himself. The junior officer he had at the time turned out to be pretty good. I also have seen Sr. NCOs that showed their priority to be a crown or leaves and that was what their junior officer learned. 
On the other hand, the converse is also true. The Lt. or Capt. who has a Sgt or Warrant working for him/her leads by example also. If the SrNco is weak or waffling then the influence of the Officer is felt. This creates a dangerous situation all the way down the food chain until even the Corporals are saying, "Screw you, I‘m covering my own *** ." 
Having said that, I will take the opportunity to thank, thenSgt. Al Weidner, then WO Scotty Brothen, and then Sgt. John Helgeson for teaching many valuable lessons by example. Oh and one more, Flt. Sgt. Bill Short. RCAF. Thanks Dad
Danny
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## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:14:09 -0700*
John, you‘re so modest.
Actually, I‘m not sure what to say a first.  So much of the relatioship is
driven by the personalities not only of the people but also of the units
involved.  there very much has to be a bit of give and take.  Officers, for
the most part, are hired to lead.  Senior NCOs including WO manage the
process I know that this is heretical, but its what I believe.  The NCOs
make sure everything, including the other ranks dating myself are ready to
deliver the product.
I‘m going to leave it there and wait for other comments.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gow 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> If you‘d be willing to wait until the end of the month when Mike is again
> more vailable and accessible, I am quite sure he could give you the DS
> solution from the Officer/System side at least.
>
> I can try and come up with a response from the NCO side, but it would like
> to take me a few days before I pressed SEND...
>
> Don Schepens will have a unique view, having gone from Private through
Sgt,
> and on up to CO/LCol...in addition to bing a ****  of as lot brighter than
> me....
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Woods" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:44 PM
> Subject: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
>
> >
> > All:
> > Can anyone come up with any written references on the Sr NCO/WO/Officer
> > relationship?  I find this to be a growing problem in the CF.
References
> > from either the Officers or the NCM‘s point of view would both be
helpful.
> >
> > thanks
> > MGW
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:18:00 -0700*
In many ways I must agree.  ONe of the most important jobs of the platoon WO
is to train the junior officer not in the military art we do lots of
training in this in the schools, but in the practical application of this
with real people in real situations.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> While I realize that I had only a 10 yr career in the PRes and people like
Don have been around since Moses, I will risk this step into this one.
>
> First of all, the book be damned. The relationships between Sr. NCO and
Officer depends on the people involved. IF both are interested in the troops
best interest then everything is fine. If one is isn‘t, well....
>
> First off, I was taught by a family of NCMs that our role as good Sr. NCOs
was to teach and thus create good officers. The best way to teach is to lead
by example. I learned more from on of our "old Sgts." when I was a private
by watching him. He showed that he cared more for the troops than for
himself. The junior officer he had at the time turned out to be pretty good.
I also have seen Sr. NCOs that showed their priority to be a crown or leaves
and that was what their junior officer learned.
> On the other hand, the converse is also true. The Lt. or Capt. who has a
Sgt or Warrant working for him/her leads by example also. If the SrNco is
weak or waffling then the influence of the Officer is felt. This creates a
dangerous situation all the way down the food chain until even the Corporals
are saying, "Screw you, I‘m covering my own *** ."
> Having said that, I will take the opportunity to thank, thenSgt. Al
Weidner, then WO Scotty Brothen, and then Sgt. John Helgeson for
teaching many valuable lessons by example. Oh and one more, Flt. Sgt. Bill
Short. RCAF. Thanks Dad
>
> Danny
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:24:06 -0500*
Actually, I knew the RSM that parted the Sea with his pace stick....shortly
thereafter, Schepens puked on him....
inside joke
John
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> While I realize that I had only a 10 yr career in the PRes and people like
Don have been around since Moses, I will risk this step into this one.
>
> First of all, the book be damned. The relationships between Sr. NCO and
Officer depends on the people involved. IF both are interested in the troops
best interest then everything is fine. If one is isn‘t, well....
>
> First off, I was taught by a family of NCMs that our role as good Sr. NCOs
was to teach and thus create good officers. The best way to teach is to lead
by example. I learned more from on of our "old Sgts." when I was a private
by watching him. He showed that he cared more for the troops than for
himself. The junior officer he had at the time turned out to be pretty good.
I also have seen Sr. NCOs that showed their priority to be a crown or leaves
and that was what their junior officer learned.
> On the other hand, the converse is also true. The Lt. or Capt. who has a
Sgt or Warrant working for him/her leads by example also. If the SrNco is
weak or waffling then the influence of the Officer is felt. This creates a
dangerous situation all the way down the food chain until even the Corporals
are saying, "Screw you, I‘m covering my own *** ."
> Having said that, I will take the opportunity to thank, thenSgt. Al
Weidner, then WO Scotty Brothen, and then Sgt. John Helgeson for
teaching many valuable lessons by example. Oh and one more, Flt. Sgt. Bill
Short. RCAF. Thanks Dad
>
> Danny
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *CoastDanny@aol.com* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:36:24 EST*
Don puked on his RSM????   John, buddy, pal, do tell! Hehehehehe
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:36:30 -0700*
Whoa there Sgt Major!  Remember that I know lots about you too.  For what
its worth folks its a true story but it doesn‘t really fit this venue.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gow 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Actually, I knew the RSM that parted the Sea with his pace
stick....shortly
> thereafter, Schepens puked on him....
> inside joke
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
>
> > While I realize that I had only a 10 yr career in the PRes and people
like
> Don have been around since Moses, I will risk this step into this one.
> >
> > First of all, the book be damned. The relationships between Sr. NCO and
> Officer depends on the people involved. IF both are interested in the
troops
> best interest then everything is fine. If one is isn‘t, well....
> >
> > First off, I was taught by a family of NCMs that our role as good Sr.
NCOs
> was to teach and thus create good officers. The best way to teach is to
lead
> by example. I learned more from on of our "old Sgts." when I was a private
> by watching him. He showed that he cared more for the troops than for
> himself. The junior officer he had at the time turned out to be pretty
good.
> I also have seen Sr. NCOs that showed their priority to be a crown or
leaves
> and that was what their junior officer learned.
> > On the other hand, the converse is also true. The Lt. or Capt. who has a
> Sgt or Warrant working for him/her leads by example also. If the SrNco is
> weak or waffling then the influence of the Officer is felt. This creates a
> dangerous situation all the way down the food chain until even the
Corporals
> are saying, "Screw you, I‘m covering my own *** ."
> > Having said that, I will take the opportunity to thank, thenSgt. Al
> Weidner, then WO Scotty Brothen, and then Sgt. John Helgeson for
> teaching many valuable lessons by example. Oh and one more, Flt. Sgt. Bill
> Short. RCAF. Thanks Dad
> >
> > Danny
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:51:27 -0500*
Pretty much as you say, Don.  Been thinking about this for a couple hours
now.
Its tough to make Sgt the liklihood of a member entering the service,
staying around, staying out of trouble, getting the courses, the unit having
the vacancies, and attracting the attention of the members of the promotion
board sure load the odds against a private today or thirty years ago.
That entry member, too, will tend to reflect the light of what he was
shown,nadvertantly or otherwise the leadership by example process.  Very,
ver few individuals, though there are some, have that core personality to
come through a "mess" and become champions....though it does on occaision
happen.
So the first thing a NCM needs is a role model to pattern on nd learn from.
He gets this from fellow NCM types, not officers...as he is seldom likely to
be addressed by so lofty a rank as a Captain, let alone a Major.
Once he has  chance to be a MCpl, he usually has the chance to have a
modicum of training, where he could act/reac somewhat on his own,
successfully not denying that Cpls and Ptes can do this too, just not so
reliably...and here is where he can speak with a Lt/2Lt and offer advice of
one sort or another.
As he progresses to Sgt, he gets some rotection from the 2Lt/Lt/Capt in Mil
Law, rightfully, because his opinion and experience are starting to really
count, and the aforementioned ranks are sometimes not typically, with
Captains, but sometimes even so.  At WO, he has the "right" my word, or
thought to expect the CO‘s trust and support.  If the Pl CO gets blown
away, he can fight a platoon, and is likely cognisant if not skilled in
every aspect of the individual jobs in that platoon.  You are right he lost
his trainee...the Lt.  He takes the Lt‘s command and explains them to the
men.  e comforts and advises his officer and on occaision, baits him a fair
bit too, but that‘s part of growing the officer
When he becomes a CQ, he has a Major‘s absolute confidence as well as the
CO‘s, the RQ‘s, etc, etc, and is placed to be able to tell the officer
"No".  Its done tactfully, almost always respectfully, and ALWAYS for a good
reason.  He‘s still training officers, and, as Danny points out, protecting
the men.
The NCO has the experience of the ranks.  The officers usually do not.  Both
are leadership positions.  Officers ten to fall a little harder, and have
less scope to do things on a personal level, bound as they are to a standard
that becomes a little more skewed at NCO level.
Readers can o doubt see that this is a difficult and complex relationship.
I‘ve by no means more than scratched the surface, and have not given remarks
a great deal of reflection, and been purely PRes Infantry in my scope.
Certainly there will be different wrinkles with the zips, the drop shorts,
the beavers and the "rob all serving comrades" types...how one deals with it
is an individual thing in some aspects, a personal thing with officers by
type...and we will admit there are different types...and units, and
tasks...and so on.
So I‘ll kck the ball out onto the playing field and see what responses come
out.  And yes, NCO‘s are friends with Officers, and vice versa, a truly
symbiotic relationship....
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> John, you‘re so modest.
>
> Actually, I‘m not sure what to say a first.  So much of the relatioship
is
> driven by the personalities not only of the people but also of the units
> involved.  there very much has to be a bit of give and take.  Officers,
for
> the most part, are hired to lead.  Senior NCOs including WO manage the
> process I know that this is heretical, but its what I believe.  The NCOs
> make sure everything, including the other ranks dating myself are ready
to
> deliver the product.
>
> I‘m going to leave it there and wait for other comments.
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Gow 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
>
> > If you‘d be willing to wait until the end of the month when Mike is
again
> > more vailable and accessible, I am quite sure he could give you the DS
> > solution from the Officer/System side at least.
> >
> > I can try and come up with a response from the NCO side, but it would
like
> > to take me a few days before I pressed SEND...
> >
> > Don Schepens will have a unique view, having gone from Private through
> Sgt,
> > and on up to CO/LCol...in addition to bing a ****  of as lot brighter
than
> > me....
> >
> > John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin Woods" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:44 PM
> > Subject: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> >
> > >
> > > All:
> > > Can anyone come up with any written references on the Sr
NCO/WO/Officer
> > > relationship?  I find this to be a growing problem in the CF.
> References
> > > from either the Officers or the NCM‘s point of view would both be
> helpful.
> > >
> > > thanks
> > > MGW
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:03:35 -0700*
You just can‘t have one without the other.  For the most part, I agree very
strongly with John‘s comments.  NCOs will almost always have more experience
than the officers they are teemed with.  Officer training tends to be mostly
decision making and planning.  NCOs make the decisions and plans happen.
Now some of you out there, who have worked in staffs and I have as well
will take offence.  However, it is how I see it.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gow 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Pretty much as you say, Don.  Been thinking about this for a couple hours
> now.
>
> Its tough to make Sgt the liklihood of a member entering the service,
> staying around, staying out of trouble, getting the courses, the unit
having
> the vacancies, and attracting the attention of the members of the
promotion
> board sure load the odds against a private today or thirty years ago.
>
> That entry member, too, will tend to reflect the light of what he was
> shown,nadvertantly or otherwise the leadership by example process.
Very,
> ver few individuals, though there are some, have that core personality to
> come through a "mess" and become champions....though it does on occaision
> happen.
>
> So the first thing a NCM needs is a role model to pattern on nd learn
from.
> He gets this from fellow NCM types, not officers...as he is seldom likely
to
> be addressed by so lofty a rank as a Captain, let alone a Major.
>
> Once he has  chance to be a MCpl, he usually has the chance to have a
> modicum of training, where he could act/reac somewhat on his own,
> successfully not denying that Cpls and Ptes can do this too, just not so
> reliably...and here is where he can speak with a Lt/2Lt and offer advice
of
> one sort or another.
>
> As he progresses to Sgt, he gets some rotection from the 2Lt/Lt/Capt in
Mil
> Law, rightfully, because his opinion and experience are starting to really
> count, and the aforementioned ranks are sometimes not typically, with
> Captains, but sometimes even so.  At WO, he has the "right" my word, or
> thought to expect the CO‘s trust and support.  If the Pl CO gets blown
> away, he can fight a platoon, and is likely cognisant if not skilled in
> every aspect of the individual jobs in that platoon.  You are right he
lost
> his trainee...the Lt.  He takes the Lt‘s command and explains them to the
> men.  e comforts and advises his officer and on occaision, baits him a
fair
> bit too, but that‘s part of growing the officer
>
> When he becomes a CQ, he has a Major‘s absolute confidence as well as the
> CO‘s, the RQ‘s, etc, etc, and is placed to be able to tell the officer
> "No".  Its done tactfully, almost always respectfully, and ALWAYS for a
good
> reason.  He‘s still training officers, and, as Danny points out,
protecting
> the men.
>
> The NCO has the experience of the ranks.  The officers usually do not.
Both
> are leadership positions.  Officers ten to fall a little harder, and have
> less scope to do things on a personal level, bound as they are to a
standard
> that becomes a little more skewed at NCO level.
>
> Readers can o doubt see that this is a difficult and complex relationship.
> I‘ve by no means more than scratched the surface, and have not given
remarks
> a great deal of reflection, and been purely PRes Infantry in my scope.
> Certainly there will be different wrinkles with the zips, the drop shorts,
> the beavers and the "rob all serving comrades" types...how one deals with
it
> is an individual thing in some aspects, a personal thing with officers by
> type...and we will admit there are different types...and units, and
> tasks...and so on.
>
> So I‘ll kck the ball out onto the playing field and see what responses
come
> out.  And yes, NCO‘s are friends with Officers, and vice versa, a truly
> symbiotic relationship....
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donald Schepens" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
>
> > John, you‘re so modest.
> >
> > Actually, I‘m not sure what to say a first.  So much of the
relatioship
> is
> > driven by the personalities not only of the people but also of the units
> > involved.  there very much has to be a bit of give and take.  Officers,
> for
> > the most part, are hired to lead.  Senior NCOs including WO manage the
> > process I know that this is heretical, but its what I believe.  The
NCOs
> > make sure everything, including the other ranks dating myself are
ready
> to
> > deliver the product.
> >
> > I‘m going to leave it there and wait for other comments.
> >
> > Don
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Gow 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:26 PM
> > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> >
> > > If you‘d be willing to wait until the end of the month when Mike is
> again
> > > more vailable and accessible, I am quite sure he could give you the DS
> > > solution from the Officer/System side at least.
> > >
> > > I can try and come up with a response from the NCO side, but it would
> like
> > > to take me a few days before I pressed SEND...
> > >
> > > Don Schepens will have a unique view, having gone from Private through
> > Sgt,
> > > and on up to CO/LCol...in addition to bing a ****  of as lot brighter
> than
> > > me....
> > >
> > > John
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Martin Woods" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:44 PM
> > > Subject: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > All:
> > > > Can anyone come up with any written references on the Sr
> NCO/WO/Officer
> > > > relationship?  I find this to be a growing problem in the CF.
> > References
> > > > from either the Officers or the NCM‘s point of view would both be
> > helpful.
> > > >
> > > > thanks
> > > > MGW
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:22:37 -0500*
An interesting "staff" problem on my MWO Qualifying Course in ‘87...
"You are a Platoon OC, with a full 30 man platoon in Aldershot Nova Scotia.
You have an unlimited number of qualified drivers in your platoon.  You
have an MLVW, a couple one tons...its Thursday 1700 and on Saturday, at
1200, the company is having a Xmas Party.
You must:
Pick up 60 six foot folding tables in Halifax.
Pick up 300 stacking chairs in Digby
Pick up a quantity of party favours in Fredricton
Pick up hot rations from the caterer in St John, in hayboxes or modern
equivalent at 0600 Saturday.
It takes three hours to set the system up, with twenty four workers.
Formulate your orders....
Of course, like the idiots we were, we laboured long into the night, with
Sgts A, B and C 2IC‘s X, Y and Z WO1, Privates and Corporals 1 through
24...and belaboured this through credit cards for gas, quarters, rations,
POL points and so on, until, after a long unsleeping night, we saw how it
could be done...
And, so, in the morning, gave a long and interesting discourse of an "O"
Group...detailing precise tasks to individuals....
The Course OC, laughed, threw down his clip board stood and said:
"Gentlemen, you are excellent NCO‘s that can do damn near anything...bu a Lt
would say to his WO....wait for it...
"Make it so"
And there, in fact, is the difference between chalk and cheese....
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> You just can‘t have one without the other.  For the most part, I agree
very
> strongly with John‘s comments.  NCOs will almost always have more
experience
> than the officers they are teemed with.  Officer training tends to be
mostly
> decision making and planning.  NCOs make the decisions and plans happen.
>
> Now some of you out there, who have worked in staffs and I have as well
> will take offence.  However, it is how I see it.
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Gow 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
>
> > Pretty much as you say, Don.  Been thinking about this for a couple
hours
> > now.
> >
> > Its tough to make Sgt the liklihood of a member entering the service,
> > staying around, staying out of trouble, getting the courses, the unit
> having
> > the vacancies, and attracting the attention of the members of the
> promotion
> > board sure load the odds against a private today or thirty years ago.
> >
> > That entry member, too, will tend to reflect the light of what he was
> > shown,nadvertantly or otherwise the leadership by example process.
> Very,
> > ver few individuals, though there are some, have that core personality
to
> > come through a "mess" and become champions....though it does on
occaision
> > happen.
> >
> > So the first thing a NCM needs is a role model to pattern on nd learn
> from.
> > He gets this from fellow NCM types, not officers...as he is seldom
likely
> to
> > be addressed by so lofty a rank as a Captain, let alone a Major.
> >
> > Once he has  chance to be a MCpl, he usually has the chance to have a
> > modicum of training, where he could act/reac somewhat on his own,
> > successfully not denying that Cpls and Ptes can do this too, just not
so
> > reliably...and here is where he can speak with a Lt/2Lt and offer
advice
> of
> > one sort or another.
> >
> > As he progresses to Sgt, he gets some rotection from the 2Lt/Lt/Capt in
> Mil
> > Law, rightfully, because his opinion and experience are starting to
really
> > count, and the aforementioned ranks are sometimes not typically, with
> > Captains, but sometimes even so.  At WO, he has the "right" my word,
or
> > thought to expect the CO‘s trust and support.  If the Pl CO gets blown
> > away, he can fight a platoon, and is likely cognisant if not skilled in
> > every aspect of the individual jobs in that platoon.  You are right he
> lost
> > his trainee...the Lt.  He takes the Lt‘s command and explains them to
the
> > men.  e comforts and advises his officer and on occaision, baits him a
> fair
> > bit too, but that‘s part of growing the officer
> >
> > When he becomes a CQ, he has a Major‘s absolute confidence as well as
the
> > CO‘s, the RQ‘s, etc, etc, and is placed to be able to tell the officer
> > "No".  Its done tactfully, almost always respectfully, and ALWAYS for a
> good
> > reason.  He‘s still training officers, and, as Danny points out,
> protecting
> > the men.
> >
> > The NCO has the experience of the ranks.  The officers usually do not.
> Both
> > are leadership positions.  Officers ten to fall a little harder, and
have
> > less scope to do things on a personal level, bound as they are to a
> standard
> > that becomes a little more skewed at NCO level.
> >
> > Readers can o doubt see that this is a difficult and complex
relationship.
> > I‘ve by no means more than scratched the surface, and have not given
> remarks
> > a great deal of reflection, and been purely PRes Infantry in my scope.
> > Certainly there will be different wrinkles with the zips, the drop
shorts,
> > the beavers and the "rob all serving comrades" types...how one deals
with
> it
> > is an individual thing in some aspects, a personal thing with officers
by
> > type...and we will admit there are different types...and units, and
> > tasks...and so on.
> >
> > So I‘ll kck the ball out onto the playing field and see what responses
> come
> > out.  And yes, NCO‘s are friends with Officers, and vice versa, a truly
> > symbiotic relationship....
> >
> > John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Donald Schepens" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> >
> > > John, you‘re so modest.
> > >
> > > Actually, I‘m not sure what to say a first.  So much of the
> relatioship
> > is
> > > driven by the personalities not only of the people but also of the
units
> > > involved.  there very much has to be a bit of give and take.
Officers,
> > for
> > > the most part, are hired to lead.  Senior NCOs including WO manage
the
> > > process I know that this is heretical, but its what I believe.  The
> NCOs
> > > make sure everything, including the other ranks dating myself are
> ready
> > to
> > > deliver the product.
> > >
> > > I‘m going to leave it there and wait for other comments.
> > >
> > > Don
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: John Gow 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:26 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > >
> > >
> > > > If you‘d be willing to wait until the end of the month when Mike is
> > again
> > > > more vailable and accessible, I am quite sure he could give you the
DS
> > > > solution from the Officer/System side at least.
> > > >
> > > > I can try and come up with a response from the NCO side, but it
would
> > like
> > > > to take me a few days before I pressed SEND...
> > > >
> > > > Don Schepens will have a unique view, having gone from Private
through
> > > Sgt,
> > > > and on up to CO/LCol...in addition to bing a ****  of as lot brighter
> > than
> > > > me....
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Martin Woods" 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 12:44 PM
> > > > Subject: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > All:
> > > > > Can anyone come up with any written references on the Sr
> > NCO/WO/Officer
> > > > > relationship?  I find this to be a growing problem in the CF.
> > > References
> > > > > from either the Officers or the NCM‘s point of view would both be
> > > helpful.
> > > > >
> > > > > thanks
> > > > > MGW
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## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 04:01:49 -0000*
If Don is worried about "mixed company" instead of just about saving 
face!, he needn‘t be. Spill, John, spill... So to speak!
----Original Message Follows----
From: CoastDanny@aol.com
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:36:24 EST
Don puked on his RSM????   John, buddy, pal, do tell! Hehehehehe
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----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:01:15 -0500*
You had to be there...and it was LONG before he passed over to the "Dark
Side", and, as he fairly points out, he has more than got the goods on
me....
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> If Don is worried about "mixed company" instead of just about saving
> face!, he needn‘t be. Spill, John, spill... So to speak!
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: CoastDanny@aol.com
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:36:24 EST
>
> 
> Don puked on his RSM????   John, buddy, pal, do tell! Hehehehehe
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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>
> _________________________________________________________________________
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>
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----------



## army

Posted by *CoastDanny@aol.com* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:11:24 EST*
I have a feeling that subject belongs in the Mess and not here. BOY do I want to be in that Mess though 
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## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:25:10 -0700*
Ask John or Dan, they‘ll tell you that I‘m not scared of much of anything.
I just don‘t think that this sort of story about myself or anyone else
really belongs on this site.  Having said that, if John wants to share, he
certainly may.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> If Don is worried about "mixed company" instead of just about saving
> face!, he needn‘t be. Spill, John, spill... So to speak!
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: CoastDanny@aol.com
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:36:24 EST
>
> 
> Don puked on his RSM????   John, buddy, pal, do tell! Hehehehehe
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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>
> _________________________________________________________________________
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>
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----------



## army

Posted by *"Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:25:24 -0600*
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
> You just can‘t have one without the other.  For the most part, I agree
very
> strongly with John‘s comments.  NCOs will almost always have more
experience
> than the officers they are teemed with.  Officer training tends to be
mostly
> decision making and planning.  NCOs make the decisions and plans happen.
>
> Now some of you out there, who have worked in staffs and I have as well
> will take offence.  However, it is how I see it.
>
I heartily agree with the comments from Don and John on this topic.
As regards staffs and especially staff officers and I too spent time as
one. There are two distinct groupings. First are the officers who are there
to do a good job until they can get back to the Bn/Regt and hopefully to a
command slot. The second group are those who are quite happy to be in a
staff job where leadership and command responsibility are not required. Too
often it seems the second group have gained control within the CF and since
they distrust what they don‘t understand they concentrate on trying to
ensure the first group are kept busy with paperwork even when they are not
on staff.
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## army

Posted by *"Martin Woods" <woodsm@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:35:17 -0700*
Fellow list members.  So far excellent and entertaining responses.  But I
think that you miss the essence of what I am seeking.
I am looking for the almost impossible A Written Reference.
I have spoken to many who have referred to seeing such a reference, yet no
one seems to be able to say where.
I‘m afraid it is like the Easter Bunny.  All believe, but no one can say
why.
MGW
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## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:40:47 -0500*
We, too, were young and dumb and full of come in our day...
And we had a fair number of days...
More, unfortunately, than the average recruit of 2001.
So if all could forgive me for twitting my very long time friend and
mentor...that thread is not going further, unless you find another source...
and in a truly Gaelic phrase of that Bn of that day, broken for
clarity..."‘an they‘re all dead!"
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Ask John or Dan, they‘ll tell you that I‘m not scared of much of anything.
> I just don‘t think that this sort of story about myself or anyone else
> really belongs on this site.  Having said that, if John wants to share, he
> certainly may.
>
> Don
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:01 PM
> Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
>
> > If Don is worried about "mixed company" instead of just about saving
> > face!, he needn‘t be. Spill, John, spill... So to speak!
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: CoastDanny@aol.com
> > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:36:24 EST
> >
> > 
> > Don puked on his RSM????   John, buddy, pal, do tell! Hehehehehe
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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>
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----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:56:01 -0500*
Will reduce it to what I got as advice from LCol Sharpe in 1971?/2?  then CO
of 1 PPCLI...when being instructed in NCO skills
"Mex flex...  good sense of humor"
as in Maximum flexibility in going this way or that...and keep a good sense
of humour...its neither his fault or yours...and you will be required to do
a lot of dumb things that we can never prepare you for, that we‘ll expect
you to srt your way through...
Is that clear enough?
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Woods" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:35 PM
Subject: RE: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Fellow list members.  So far excellent and entertaining responses.  But I
> think that you miss the essence of what I am seeking.
>
> I am looking for the almost impossible A Written Reference.
>
> I have spoken to many who have referred to seeing such a reference, yet no
> one seems to be able to say where.
> I‘m afraid it is like the Easter Bunny.  All believe, but no one can say
> why.
>
> MGW
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:16:21 -0500*
Better be in a Svc Corps Mess...in Infantry, you might go dry a few rounds,
just in retribution, with us old guys there...
Are you going to be in Edmonton for 9 June?
Am thinking really hard on why I should not be, even if I have not brought
it forward to Anne...
Could toast both their butts...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> I have a feeling that subject belongs in the Mess and not here. BOY do I
want to be in that Mess though 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:18:29 -0500*
Thanks Bruce...and Don, too...
Nobody ever said you guys were in any way dumb...and we NCM‘s knew that you
were of the number that appreciated both the men, and us.  Which is sort of
the dividing line....
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Williams" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donald Schepens" 
>
> > You just can‘t have one without the other.  For the most part, I agree
> very
> > strongly with John‘s comments.  NCOs will almost always have more
> experience
> > than the officers they are teemed with.  Officer training tends to be
> mostly
> > decision making and planning.  NCOs make the decisions and plans happen.
> >
> > Now some of you out there, who have worked in staffs and I have as
well
> > will take offence.  However, it is how I see it.
> >
>
> I heartily agree with the comments from Don and John on this topic.
>
> As regards staffs and especially staff officers and I too spent time as
> one. There are two distinct groupings. First are the officers who are
there
> to do a good job until they can get back to the Bn/Regt and hopefully to a
> command slot. The second group are those who are quite happy to be in a
> staff job where leadership and command responsibility are not required.
Too
> often it seems the second group have gained control within the CF and
since
> they distrust what they don‘t understand they concentrate on trying to
> ensure the first group are kept busy with paperwork even when they are not
> on staff.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
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----------



## army

Posted by *CoastDanny@aol.com* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:32:19 EST*
I‘d only go dry if YOU were buying, remember I will have US dollars LOL.
We are planning on being home for 9June but $$ rules right now. 
What have you got on Anne too? LOL
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## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:35:49 -0500*
What have I on Anne?
Yessss...smiling smugly...why don‘t you ask her?
Dubonnet, Orange Blossoms, Don‘s various antics...a lifetime of memory, not
wipe clean magnetic diskettes...just a twisted perverted hard drive...that
she may fear...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:32 AM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> I‘d only go dry if YOU were buying, remember I will have US dollars LOL.
> We are planning on being home for 9June but $$ rules right now.
> What have you got on Anne too? LOL
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:47:47 -0500*
Could you introduce yourself, Martin?
Witness the "Welcome to Salem"  remark a week or so ago...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Woods" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:35 PM
Subject: RE: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Fellow list members.  So far excellent and entertaining responses.  But I
> think that you miss the essence of what I am seeking.
>
> I am looking for the almost impossible A Written Reference.
>
> I have spoken to many who have referred to seeing such a reference, yet no
> one seems to be able to say where.
> I‘m afraid it is like the Easter Bunny.  All believe, but no one can say
> why.
>
> MGW
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army

Posted by *"Martin Woods" <woodsm@home.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:25:36 -0700*
Well, I‘ve been following this list since Nov 98.  I‘m a Sgt with the
Calgary Highlanders.
I posted the question re Officer/NCO relationships because there are so few
references that anyone can point to.
Could you introduce yourself, Martin?
Witness the "Welcome to Salem"  remark a week or so ago...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Woods" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:35 PM
Subject: RE: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
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----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:34:41 -0800*
Another lurker comes out of the shadows...Welcome
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Woods" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 6:25 AM
Subject: RE: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Well, I‘ve been following this list since Nov 98.  I‘m a Sgt with the
> Calgary Highlanders.
>
> I posted the question re Officer/NCO relationships because there are so
few
> references that anyone can point to.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Could you introduce yourself, Martin?
>
> Witness the "Welcome to Salem"  remark a week or so ago...
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Woods" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:35 PM
> Subject: RE: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army

Posted by *CoastDanny@aol.com* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:29:15 EST*
Welcome Martin, at least you didnt say 1st Lt with the Cal Highs. :
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## army

Posted by *"Ian  Kate" <imcgrego@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:32:28 -0500*
I saw such a reference once.  It was put out by Mobile Command and while a
few years old is still accurate.  I believe it was a general message to all
Sr NCOs and officers at the time it was created.  I may have a copy hiding
around the house somewhere.  It was mostly useless to me when I first read
it as an army cadet  it seems that or instructor forgot that in the cadets
the officer typically has more experience and the cadet NCO is the
understudy, but I have since found its advice useful.  I will see what I
can do for you.
Ian McGregor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Woods" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:35 PM
Subject: RE: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Fellow list members.  So far excellent and entertaining responses.  But I
> think that you miss the essence of what I am seeking.
>
> I am looking for the almost impossible A Written Reference.
>
> I have spoken to many who have referred to seeing such a reference, yet no
> one seems to be able to say where.
> I‘m afraid it is like the Easter Bunny.  All believe, but no one can say
> why.
>
> MGW
>
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## army

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:29:55 -0700*
A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends, a Snr
NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of paper that
compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one of those,
who had, but cannot produce...
Ubique
Mac
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Woods" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:35 PM
Subject: RE: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Fellow list members.  So far excellent and entertaining responses.  But I
> think that you miss the essence of what I am seeking.
>
> I am looking for the almost impossible A Written Reference.
>
> I have spoken to many who have referred to seeing such a reference, yet no
> one seems to be able to say where.
> I‘m afraid it is like the Easter Bunny.  All believe, but no one can say
> why.
>
> MGW
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
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## army

Posted by *"Martin Woods" <woodsm@home.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:22:21 -0700*
Gents, if you find the references you have referred to, I would be grateful.
cheers
MGW
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## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:19:25 -0800*
Martin, As John says, I might have something for you back in
Halifax. I‘m in Kingston on course and will be home by the first
of April. You can get me directly at m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca.
I might be able to find \it here, but we‘re in the middle of
the final exercise so my time is limited. I suppose the worst
case is that I could try to write something.   
Mike
PS for all: My article on the Regimental System will be in the
soon to be released Army Bulletin.
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
--- Original Message ---
"Martin Woods"  Wrote on 
Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:35:17 -0700
 ------------------ 
Fellow list members.  So far excellent and entertaining responses.
 But I
think that you miss the essence of what I am seeking.
I am looking for the almost impossible A Written Reference.
I have spoken to many who have referred to seeing such a reference,
yet no
one seems to be able to say where.
I‘m afraid it is like the Easter Bunny.  All believe, but no
one can say
why.
MGW
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-----
Sent using MailStart.com   http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html  
The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!
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## army

Posted by *"Martin Woods" <woodsm@home.com>* on *Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:20:01 -0700*
Mike
Take care of the crse.  I can wait.  
thanks
MGW
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## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 14 Mar 2001 05:40:37 -0000*
You‘re a gentleman to your core, as I‘m sure Don is, too - in spite of your 
efforts to besmirch his spotless name... 
----Original Message Follows----
From: "John Gow" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:40:47 -0500
We, too, were young and dumb and full of come in our day...
And we had a fair number of days...
More, unfortunately, than the average recruit of 2001.
So if all could forgive me for twitting my very long time friend and
mentor...that thread is not going further, unless you find another source...
and in a truly Gaelic phrase of that Bn of that day, broken for
clarity..."‘an they‘re all dead!"
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
 > Ask John or Dan, they‘ll tell you that I‘m not scared of much of 
anything.
 > I just don‘t think that this sort of story about myself or anyone else
 > really belongs on this site.  Having said that, if John wants to share, 
he
 > certainly may.
 >
 > Don
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: Joan O. Arc 
 > To: 
 > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 9:01 PM
 > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
 >
 >
 > > If Don is worried about "mixed company" instead of just about saving
 > > face!, he needn‘t be. Spill, John, spill... So to speak!
 > >
 > >
 > > ----Original Message Follows----
 > > From: CoastDanny@aol.com
 > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > > To: 
 > > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
 > > Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:36:24 EST
 > >
 > > 
 > > Don puked on his RSM????   John, buddy, pal, do tell! Hehehehehe
 > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > > message body.
 > >
 > >
_________________________________________________________________________
 > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
 > >
 > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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 > > message body.
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
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## army

Posted by *Greg Hawes <hawes@SEDSystems.ca>* on *Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:53:19 -0600 (CST)*
Martin,
The written word on this subject is indeed hard to find.  
In a phrase, watch and learn, but almost as important, 
learn who to watch.  
I found a couple of refs which ‘touch‘ on the issue:
 http://www.dnd.ca/commelec/nwslettr/vol36/rsm.htm 
The following article doesn‘t really deal fully with the 
relationship issue, but it is interesting reading.  It is 
entitled "Leadership: the ability to tell someone to go to  
**** , and have them look forward to the trip" .
 http://www.vcds.dnd.ca/dgsp/dsc/D2000nws/1997/dec97/leader_e.asp 
In addition, there was a series of articles co-published a 
few years back by the Wing Comd  Wing CWO of 14 Wing that 
dealt with the issue.  Unfortunately, I can‘t find them on 
the net - perhaps someone else was fortunate enough to save 
them.
Finally, you should check out this US Army 
leadership site - it has a wealth of info on leadership 
issues.
 http://www.leadership.army.mil/ 
greg
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:22:21 -0700 Martin Woods 
 wrote:
> Gents, if you find the references you have referred to, I 
> would be grateful.
> 
> cheers
> MGW
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:20:43 -0700*
I‘ve read the article.  It is extremely interesting.
Don
----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 8:19 PM
Subject: RE: RE: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> 
> 
> Martin, As John says, I might have something for you back in
> Halifax. I‘m in Kingston on course and will be home by the first
> of April. You can get me directly at m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca.
> I might be able to find \it here, but we‘re in the middle of
> the final exercise so my time is limited. I suppose the worst
> case is that I could try to write something.   
> 
> Mike
> 
> PS for all: My article on the Regimental System will be in the
> soon to be released Army Bulletin.
> 
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> 
> 
> --- Original Message ---
> "Martin Woods"  Wrote on 
> Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:35:17 -0700
>  ------------------ 
> Fellow list members.  So far excellent and entertaining responses.
>  But I
> think that you miss the essence of what I am seeking.
> 
> I am looking for the almost impossible A Written Reference.
> 
> I have spoken to many who have referred to seeing such a reference,
> yet no
> one seems to be able to say where.
> I‘m afraid it is like the Easter Bunny.  All believe, but no
> one can say
> why.
> 
> MGW
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
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> message body.
> 
> 
> -----
> Sent using MailStart.com   http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html  
> The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!
> 
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