# Winter warefare/survival ideas



## Jarnhamar (31 Dec 2009)

I'm looking for ideas for winter warfare/survival training to be run at section level.

Does anyone have any ideas?  Maybe something that they did in the past which they found really keen or something they have heard of which sounded cool?


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## PuckChaser (31 Dec 2009)

Perhaps if you have some SMEs in the unit, cover things like Ice Fishing, snaring, trapping animals.


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## Jarnhamar (31 Dec 2009)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Perhaps if you have some SMEs in the unit, cover things like Ice Fishing, snaring, trapping animals.



Then I won't be able to take credit for all your ideas back at my unit brother


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## Brasidas (31 Dec 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I'm looking for ideas for winter warfare/survival training to be run at section level.
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas?  Maybe something that they did in the past which they found really keen or something they have heard of which sounded cool?



Went on winter survival training with the Rangers at the beginning of the month.

Started out with a series of stands on Friday morning, including shelter construction, fires, signals, and snares.

By noon, we were dropped off at a series of sites in quasi-randomly selected pairs. This is Fort Vermillion in northern Alberta; iirc, sunrise was 8ish and sunset was before 5. During the daylight, we'd improve the shelter, gather wood, and prepare a signal fire. DS would check in on us about three times a day.

Sunday morning, we'd be ready to start our signal fire when we heard the plane (...or be woken up by it). Ideally we'd have the fire going and visible by no later than the second pass.

We received detailed feedback perhaps once a day, identifying points to improve on.

It's a simple approach to the basics, with loads of practical hands-on time. The stands aren't terribly complicated to teach, and the depth can be tailored to the experience of the audience and the instructor. If there's a lot of variation in experience among the section, then it gets taught barebones and you get into more detail during the feedback chats in the evening.

Permission was obtained to set snares to catch animals and to cut down trees. We left Thursday evening (eleven hour bus trip), and were forbidden to bring any food with us.  Made for a more interesting scenario, motivated folks for snares, and they were a lot more likely to chow down on squirrel.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Dec 2009)

Mmmmmmmm squirrrrrell


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## my72jeep (31 Dec 2009)

Raccoon the other white meat. :nod:
In the past I set up 2 x 10 pers tents in the snow banks out front of the Armories had the troops man them 24/7 worked great for recruiting.


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## chrisf (31 Dec 2009)

For basic winter indoc, I know somone is going to laugh at this, but if you can get an older (Mine was printed in the 1980s) copy of the Boy Scouts Handbook, it's a fantastic resource for teaching basic winter survival, it's written for young teens, so it's quite simple, and translates well into teaching green troops, but with the exception of weapons care/defences, it covers pretty much everything required by winter indoc, and indepth... very useful as a reference for the classroom "pre-training" portion.


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## Forester (24 Feb 2010)

There is also a course that covers some of these things. The Basic Winter Warfare course. I am looking at the CTP right now. Now it is an actual course, and how well the FTX goes depends on if you run it on a base, or off base where you can cut trees and start fires and the like. We run that course on our regular training nights here at the armouries. Though for buget reasons, couldnt do the FTX, so that will have to wait till next year.

Once you get this qualification, you then can go on you Advanced Winter Warfare, its 3 months, in the NWT.


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## Brasidas (24 Feb 2010)

Forester said:
			
		

> There is also a course that covers some of these things. The Basic Winter Warfare course. I am looking at the CTP right now. Now it is an actual course, and how well the FTX goes depends on if you run it on a base, or off base where you can cut trees and start fires and the like....



When it was conducted in a training area at CFB Edmonton when I did it, we were restricted from cutting trees. A little tougher to have green boughs for signal fires that way, and the Rangers' course I went on was a nice change.

You've got to get permission to "modify the environment".


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Feb 2010)

When we did it a few weekends ago, we where also not allowed to cut trees so we used "dead fall" and tried to make it not to obvious that any living trees where cut down....


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## Forester (24 Feb 2010)

I suppose my unit is lucky as about half of our members own large farms. There is one farm that we use to conduct our FTX, so no rules against that sort of thing. Its too bad, as improvised shelter training in a more controllable environment like you get in central ontario is easier then learning the hard way in northern ontario. Last year our week long ex up north, we had alot of casualties from the improvised shelter nights from other units, as we were one of the only units experienced with it.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Feb 2010)

Our improvised shelter was warmer than the arctic tent. Pics aren't good quality.  
Slept 9


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2010)

Who dropped the trees?


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## SeanNewman (28 Feb 2010)

Starting a fire (or attempting to) from scratch is probably the most useful thing you can train.

Even with the bow and string thing, it is effin' hard!


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Starting a fire (or attempting to) from scratch is probably the most useful thing you can train.
> 
> Even with the bow and string thing, it is effin' hard!


Flint and steel is easy to teach and learn. A kit takes up no extra room (an Altoid tin) and the weight is negligable. Even a novice can have a fire going in under ten seconds.

One of those magnesium keychain sticks is even easier.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Feb 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Who dropped the trees?



Platoon medic and a chain saw.

We could have roughed it more and made true improvised shelters without any tools (paracord chainsaw) but as far a I was concerned it was 80% of the sections first time on a winter ex (let alone sleeping in an improvised shelter) so this was the ice breaker, next month we'll build from scratch.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2010)

So it was done on private land with the owner's permission


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## GAP (28 Feb 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So it was done on private land with the owner's permission



Recceguy is trying to make a VERY valid point.....because if all this is not with the owners permission, or exceeds the permissions given, and you guys don't leave that area sparkling clean of everything you inflicted on it....it probably going to come back and bite you and the reserve units big time.....

From there, I can imagine risk adverse HQ's pontificating from on high, but the end result is this type of Ex being killed....


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## SeanNewman (28 Feb 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Flint and steel is easy to teach and learn. A kit takes up no extra room (an Altoid tin) and the weight is negligable. Even a novice can have a fire going in under ten seconds.
> 
> One of those magnesium keychain sticks is even easier.



That's not from scratch any more than teaching them to use a Bic lighter and gasoline.

When I wrote "train", I'm talking about good old fashion wood on wood, like if you were in a plane crash with no preparation.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> That's not from scratch any more than teaching them to use a Bic lighter and gasoline.
> 
> When I wrote "train", I'm talking about good old fashion wood on wood, like if you were in a plane crash with no preparation.



Unless the plane I was on was the Silver Dart, I still wouldn't be making a fire with a bow. If you are totally unprepared and unimaginative you deserve to while away your hours recreating 'Quest for Fire'

And 'from scratch' would include your knife (steel) and an appropriate rock (flint).

Me, I'll be eating squirrel or some such cooked over a fire.

By all means, teach the bow and other methods, but you'll really have to be exceptionally hard up and lost to have to use them. Like the Boy Scouts say "Be prepared".


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## 1911CoLt45 (28 Feb 2010)

This saved my feet once out hunting.  

Teach the importance of using cat tails out of swamps for insulation for boots and in your shirt.  You pull it apart and it looks like  down feather.  Stuff it anywear, its a great insulator.  As well its a great fire starter if you have zero kindling as it is extremely flamable.  Great to use with flint, or as Petamocto stated to start a fire after you get some embers going off of your fire saw etc.  Goes up really fast with a big flame so have your wood your going to burn at the ready.


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## SeanNewman (28 Feb 2010)

So to be clear, your side of this discussion is that you see no value in training to start a fire from scratch?

To take your point to the next logical level, why not be prepared for everything?  Why not be in the forest with a full camper with a stove, generator, and television?


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## 1911CoLt45 (28 Feb 2010)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> I'm looking for ideas for winter warfare/survival training to be run at section level.
> 
> Does anyone have any ideas?  Maybe something that they did in the past which they found really keen or something they have heard of which sounded cool?




just giving ideas to this initial question.  

As far as adding to your " wood on wood" comment Petamocto I think that the idea of learing how to rub to sticks together to create fire is important to know.  The cat tails was just an extra to that comment that you could use with the process once the flame has been created.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> So to be clear, your side of this discussion is that you see no value in training to start a fire from scratch?





			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> *By all means, teach the bow and other methods,* but you'll really have to be exceptionally hard up and lost to have to use them. Like the Boy Scouts say "Be prepared".



And right there is your problem, here and in the other threads that you drag off topic or try to dominate You're so fixated on your own narrow, personal view of the encapsulated little world that you occupy that you just can't wait to open your mouth without fully reading or understanding what someone else is trying to say.

You can add me to the quickly, and exponentially, expanding list of people, here, that no longer wish to have an sort of dialogue with you. 

Later.


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## SeanNewman (28 Feb 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Unless the plane I was on was the Silver Dart, I still wouldn't be making a fire with a bow. If you are totally unprepared and unimaginative you deserve to while away your hours recreating 'Quest for Fire'



Sorry, but did you forget writing that part?

Yes you did mention that it could still be taught, but you also implied that it was a waste of time because obviously a person would have to be retarded to crash without their tac vest and ruck sack with them.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Feb 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Sorry, but did you forget writing that part?
> 
> Yes you did mention that it could still be taught, but you also implied that it was a waste of time because obviously a person would have to be retarded to crash without their tac vest and ruck sack with them.



Not to mention all the fuel, batteries, survival gear, etc, that you'd have available in a plane crash. But that doesn't fit your argument, does it?

Oh wait. I'll bet you're one of those yogic flyers aren't you?

Quit bothering me.


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## stealthylizard (28 Feb 2010)

Beat me to it Recce, as I am pretty sure all aircraft are required to have a survival kit in them.  It may be different with personal aircraft.  Most of us don't fly around in those.  It is a great skill to try to learn, but relying on it to save your life is asinine.  Even the experts have a hard time creating fire from scratch.  Using the focal point from glass is more promising than rubbing two sticks together.  If you are with a group, it is almost guaranteed at least one will be a smoker as well, which means source of flame, either matches or lighter.

Another great source for Winter training, if you can find them, are the old cadet manuals.  The ones with the red covers from the 70's to late 80's.  Those that were around back in that era will most likely remember them.  I think I still have a couple laying around back in BC.  I will try to remember to get their reference numbers for you when I get back to Canada, they might still be in an archived system somewhere accessible to others


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## aesop081 (28 Feb 2010)

Even on the Advanced SERE course, we didnt have to start a fire from scratch........if we got away from the enemy far enough to start a fire.

That course is about as "life couldnt get any worse" as it gets.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Feb 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So it was done on private land with the owner's permission



2000 acres of Private property in Northern Quebec cottage country. The land owner even lent us his Mint condition BV206 - troops even got to drive it.. 

Few years ago he "attacked a defensive position" of ours with an old Sherman tank.  good times


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## PanaEng (28 Feb 2010)

Oh, com'on guys, stop picking on the RCR guy.  :camo:

I think it should be taught if only to show how hard it is and its use should be saved for a last resort - or if only to keep busy.
Some kids are quick to jump on some ideas - like rubbing sticks - instead of looking for easier alternatives if available. 
The thing is, you can't predict what you will have with you when you get lost somewhere (by whatever means), so you should be prepared to use whatever you have at your disposal - and that usually comes with experience or from expert sources (some books, videos, etc.)

One of the most important things I like to stress to the troops is the importance of staying dry. Take them on a fighting patrol - setting up an ambush works great. Hump for 5km or so, all loaded up - watch for the ones that don't strip down at the first stop. Once you arrive at the objective and start to wait - watch the shivering start. Call the OPFOR before it gets too bad and spring the ambush; get them to the tents that the OPFOR LOSVs were pulling and set up camp; warm up and talk about it.

cheers,
Frank


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## Forester (1 Mar 2010)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> One of the most important things I like to stress to the troops is the importance of staying dry. Take them on a fighting patrol - setting up an ambush works great. Hump for 5km or so, all loaded up - watch for the ones that don't strip down at the first stop. Once you arrive at the objective and start to wait - watch the shivering start. Call the OPFOR before it gets too bad and spring the ambush; get them to the tents that the OPFOR LOSVs were pulling and set up camp; warm up and talk about it.
> 
> cheers,
> Frank



They shouldnt have to strip down too much. You should be ready to go from the start. Teach that if you are warm before you leave, you are overdressed. You should be cold with what you are wearing before stepping off. We ran into that this past weekend on ex. Guys wearing fleece pants, and bib pants for a 4km snowshoe, with tobbogans, and it was like -3. They were sweatin alot by the first stop we made, which was purley for them to strip down, a usless stop.

These are all basic winter skills, that need to be taught, but also need to be reinforced.


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## PanaEng (1 Mar 2010)

That's the thing, some times you can say something until you a blue in the face but it won't sink in until they experience it themselves. I bet you those guys/girls will not be wearing all that stuff next time. 

Now, one of the most rewarding activities when doing the winter indoc is having a nice, warm, penthouse like shelter but, for me, nothing beats catching lunch/dinner. Wether it is ice fishing or snaring something, it is pretty reassuring that you can actually expand your diet if you find yourself in a survival situation.

cheers,
Frank


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## Fusaki (2 Mar 2010)

PanaEng said:
			
		

> That's the thing, some times you can say something until you a blue in the face but it won't sink in until they experience it themselves. I bet you those guys/girls will not be wearing all that stuff next time.



You can say that again...

So here's something I'll throw out for you guys:  What have you found to be the most effective layering system?

For wintertime in Ontario, I've been able to get away with polypro, softie, and a parka shell.  Before stepping off I'll take the softie off and stuff it in my ruck.  If it's really cold out, I'll add a fleece.

The bottom half, for me anyways, is a little trickier.  Ideally, I'll march in combat pants, but given the strong possibility of ending up in the prone this usually isn't the best option.  Windpants/polypro combo is more versatile, but I can't help but think there's a lighter option that I just haven't figured out yet.

I haven't been issued the new rain gear yet.  How's this stuff in the winter?


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## len173 (2 Mar 2010)

> Even on the Advanced SERE course, we didnt have to start a fire from scratch........if we got away from the enemy far enough to start a fire.
> 
> That course is about as "life couldnt get any worse" as it gets.



Is that course for pilots only? I've not heard much about this course before.

Thanks.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Mar 2010)

I ran AWT in Norway several times. 

It was pretty standard and covered most of the things in the CF syllabus, except we did everything on skis. We also were pretty 'stripped down' kit wise and travelled with light 4 man tents, or tarps that we used for 4-8 man shelters. With a decent sleeping bag and a 2 man stove per pair, we did fine down to -30C or so - as long as we weren't shy!

This meant that we could cover long distances at high speed, which was good for practising the ol' 'Motti' tactics (below), which was our intended war role as light infantry should the commies roll across the border. We had to rely on the skills learned during AWT to stay warm though. This was perfect for the 'survival' night at the end, as we would issue orders for a raid at the start of the training period, with all the AWT fitting into BP for the operation, and strike like 'shivering starving lightning' on the op. This made it all far more realistic, of course, and also provided an opportunity to teach BP in a winter warfare environment.

So, I'd suggest that you issue orders for a 'Motti inspired' raid at the start of the training, deliver the AWT stuff within the context of BP for a raid, ditch the mega-heavy tents and snowshoes on the op itself in favour of hootchies/ improvised shelters and skis (but use them at the 'patrol base' during the training to get people familiar with them), and just generally treat it all like another offensive patrolling ex. I've found that when you exclusively focus on the survival stuff without placing it in the correct military context, it all degenerates into a boy scout - type winter camping jamboree (no offense to you scouts out there, of course) with no real tactical value. The troops respond in kind, unfortunately.

I think that our CTS clothing & equipment is perfect for this type of activity, by the way. The stuff we used in Norway was literally cotton and leather and we made it work, but it was effing uncomfortable!


Motti Tactics:

"Makeshift weaponry was not the only development to augment the Finnish soldier's lack of resources and manpower. The army also developed new tactics with time. One of the most popular was the motti tactics. In Finnish, a motti is a pile of wood with stakes holding it in place, which will eventually be cut up for firewood. The motti tactics was to approach and pin a Soviet column that adequate information has been gathered about. Then with a focus on concentration of firepower, the column would be attacked and divided into many isolated parts. The key was not to make the isolated part too large to put up a struggle which it can use to break out of the motti, or defend until Red Army reinforcements arrived. Then the mottis could be dealt with, beginning at the weakest, and cold, hunger and lack of supplies could weaken the stronger ones. This tactic was used to supplement the lack of ammunition, artillery and manpower the Finns had." http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=30

http://www.winterwar.com/Tactics/mottis.htm


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## Brasidas (2 Mar 2010)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I've found that when you exclusively focus on the survival stuff without placing it in the correct military context, it all degenerates into a boy scout - type winter camping jamboree (no offense to you scouts out there, of course) with no real tactical value. The troops respond in kind, unfortunately.



I'm not sure it's a bad approach to the basic winter warfare course, though. A general introduction to taking care of yourself in the cold, followed up later on by unit-level winter indoc and other winter courses.  My own basic winter warfare course saw such scout-style fare as fire-starting contests.


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## Forester (2 Mar 2010)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> You can say that again...
> 
> So here's something I'll throw out for you guys:  What have you found to be the most effective layering system?
> 
> ...



For the top. I was using a tshirt, and parka shell. With a touque and shemeg(sp?). For bottoms it was polypro bottoms, and bib pants. Alot of people diss on the bib pants, yes they are heavier then the gortex pants(wind pants), but they can be ventilated. I spent most of the weekend with the side zips open, but if I got cold, they got done up. That worked well for me. 

My Pl WO has the new rain gear, he was in a tshirt, softee and rain jacket. It was perfect for that weather. The snow was too wet for anything but rain gear.


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## LineJumper (4 Mar 2010)

Nothing to do with dress, as anyone quickly finds a comfort zone. All tripwire coils kept are perfect for winter warfare snare training. Nothing beats real game captured utilizing leftovers from your defensive build kit. And a length of lashing wire can certainly garner larger game, if hungry enough.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Mar 2010)

Here's an idea: don't try to copy Les Stroud if you haven't got a clue what you're doing (or a full backup team in support just in case).

http://www.nationalpost.com/multimedia/video/index.html?category=National+Post&video=3aPjUKtnThZWmaZLIY1d5YugciuLKpBi


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## Rogo (17 Mar 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Flint and steel is easy to teach and learn. A kit takes up no extra room (an Altoid tin) and the weight is negligable. Even a novice can have a fire going in under ten seconds.
> 
> One of those magnesium keychain sticks is even easier.



9V battery and steel wool works very well esp in windy environments where magnesium is hard to scratch off and confine.   Just be sure to keep your battery and steel wool in seperate pockets, you're buds will find it funny but you will find it very uncomfortable.


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## Nfld Sapper (17 Mar 2010)

LineJumper said:
			
		

> Nothing to do with dress, as anyone quickly finds a comfort zone. All tripwire coils kept are perfect for winter warfare snare training. Nothing beats real game captured utilizing leftovers from your defensive build kit. And a length of lashing wire can certainly garner larger game, if hungry enough.



But illegal to use... got to use that shitty 6 strand snare wire now....


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## LineJumper (18 Mar 2010)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> But illegal to use... got to use that shitty 6 strand snare wire now....



That's good to know. I'll have to source this type of wire. Heh heh heh, is WD1 or assault wire illegal?


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## c4th (18 Mar 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> So to be clear, your side of this discussion is that you see no value in training to start a fire from scratch?
> To take your point to the next logical level, why not be prepared for everything?  Why not be in the forest with a full camper with a stove, generator, and television?



Hands up, anyone who has started a fire using wood on wood.  I've seen several expedient ways to start a fire but have never seen an effective demonstration of a 100% nature start.  I’m not a big fan of freezing to death so I would suggest that carrying a pack of matches is more efficient than a 9 Volt battery, steel wool, potassium, magnesium etc...  Not that other methods won’t work, but for weight to benefit It’s going to be hard to beat the match.

+1 on the camper and gear.  At least that is what the rangers travel with.  If one is on the land without preparation in cold weather the prognosis is not going to be good.  If one is dressed for cold already, then why not carry a ruck with what is going to be needed for at a minimum 24 hrs.  Add a light snow shovel and a machete and you have the tools for shelter.  No one really should be surprised by winter in this country.

My point here is the aim of survival training should be to increase a soldiers comfort and confidence in his abilities to withstand the climate for short periods of time.   This can be achieved with a minimum of kit.  Is it realistic to have no equipment?  If so, why not try survival with no clothing?  

All this must be subordinate to basic winter warfare training.  Tent routine, basic snow mobility, comms,  field craft , battle procedure, battle procedure and battle procedure must be the priority.  Survival training is great for interest and confidence but as an addition to the basics not at their expense.


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## Brasidas (18 Mar 2010)

Trust No One said:
			
		

> Survival training is great for interest and confidence but as an addition to the basics not at their expense.



Right on. There's nothing wrong with trimming away at what "minimal" kit is, but going for some sort of objective of the "shirt on your back and the boots on your feet" objective seems a bit outside of a generalist lesson plan.

Focussing on shelter, snares, signal fires, and how to work in the cold (layers) seem like enough to edge out wood-on-wood to me.


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## PMedMoe (18 Mar 2010)

Naphtha cubes are good for starting fires......


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