# The lowest bidder is ... in prison



## bossi (17 Nov 2004)

*Army turns to cons for aid*
By Kathleen Harris, Ottawa Bureau  

THE COUNTRY'S prison labour program has landed a $16.5-million contract to fix rusted-out trucks for the military. Sidestepping the normal bidding process for awarding government contracts, the department of national defence quietly handed CORCAN the job of repairing "heavy logistical vehicles." Five penitentiaries across the country will undergo workshop renovations to accommodate the long rigs. 

Sylvain Martel, national president of the Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, said guards are concerned about adequate supervision and safety during large-scale operations. 

"Those big DND trucks can go through just about anything," he said. "We've had incidents in the past, with smaller trucks going through fences -- and escapes follow." 

Working on the huge trucks will also give inmates access to tools that could be converted to dangerous weapons, he warned. 

But CORCAN spokesman Ellen Henderson said participating institutions are working out detailed security plans. 

"The vehicles will be disabled when they arrive at the institution. They are inspected by CSC security when they arrive, then they're disabled, then they're inspected as they leave after the work is finished," she said. 

The work will give inmates valuable work experience that will help them find employment upon release, she said. In past, inmates have made bedding and foot lockers for the military, she said. Inmates are paid a maximum of $6.90 a day for the work.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2004/11/17/717963.html


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## Bograt (17 Nov 2004)

Jesus H. Effin Christ. Pardon my language. 

I don't know what is more obscene. Th fact that prisoners are going to work on DND vehicles, or the fact they get paid 6.50/hour.

Has everyone gone completely mad? In what boardroom does this decision make sense?


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## 63 Delta (17 Nov 2004)

I believe it is 6.90 a day not an hour, according to the article.


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## Bograt (17 Nov 2004)

Thanks for pointing that out. Now, I'm not so upset.


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## JBP (17 Nov 2004)

That goes to show you also that the Canadian Armed Forces don't have the personnel or funds to do the project themselves so they'll do it for cheaper. That should be thier only excuse for not giving this job to the actual Reg Force Mechanics that are working right now right?

 ???


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## Marauder (17 Nov 2004)

It would be comical if were an Air Farce skit, but this shit is just fucking retarded. How in the hell do we give the reins to people who make these sort of decisions???


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## FastEddy (17 Nov 2004)

Recruit Joe said:
			
		

> That goes to show you also that the Canadian Armed Forces don't have the personnel or funds to do the project themselves so they'll do it for cheaper. That should be thier only excuse for not giving this job to the actual Reg Force Mechanics that are working right now right?
> 
> ???



To add   to the above, thats a pretty big repair bill (16.5 mil.).

As Recruit Joe points out, why couldn't the Can. Gov. use it to Recruit sufficient personnel and train them in that trade. We already have the facilities and Workshops. Never mind the unemployment rate in Canada, lets give the jobs to Cons.

How much is it going to cost to set up those 5 installations ?.

And completely dis-regarding the Correctional Officers concerns, because some pencil pusher says, we're taking it under consideration and providing safety measures etc. etc..

Have you looked at Corcan operating costs (just in Admin).

Rehabilitation, Oh Yeah!, the next time a Early release (now recent Heavy Equipment Mechanic) rapes, kidnaps or murders a member of your Family, just remember you thought this was a great Idea the rightway, PC and the moral thing to do.

But in my opinion, Prison means Punishment not the Hilton Pen.


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## Pte. Bloggins (17 Nov 2004)

Unfortunately this isn't a joke, I heard about this at my unit as well. Some of the LS's we're using were recently refurbished by CORCAN, and apparently the cons messed around with the electrical system, as the first time they turned the power on in the pod the wiring all round the walls caught fire.


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## ArmyRick (17 Nov 2004)

I can't beleive this but at the same i know it is true. DND should be disbanded and the Canadian Forces should be left to run themselves.
This is disgusting, please feel free to launch letters of complaints agaisnt your MP. This really unacceptable. I can just hear all the left-wing, liberal loving, there-are-no-terrorist-only-bad-americans type bleeding hearts applauding such a noble decision for the Canadian military along with "PeaceKeeping" and SHARP.


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## Devlin (17 Nov 2004)

Letter sent to MPP and a few others.   

Just a thought but maybe if we all sent a letter, this may get talked about or at least kicked around in the media a bit. 

This is just nuts... someone in Ottawa has truly lost their mind.


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## Spartan (17 Nov 2004)

an  Idea -( not that I support prisoners having all rights ala the charter, or even being paid with my money)
why not for petty crimes - like robbery etc - be a part of their sentence that they must successfully complete community servcie ala the military before any talks of release. Not only does the military benefit- we get a ton of new recruits that can be locked into time frames of commitments -depending on the crimes, but the justice sysem benefits as the overcrowded jails are substantially thinned. As a further condition of this - we can have sex offenders, murders and perverts -do mine clearance in any mine riddled country where everyone including children have the risk of losing an apendage every moment of their day - under the supervision of CF troops. - they are fed, and are issued a mine clearing stick and a buddy. Both have x kilometers to clear and then they will be considered for a lighter sentence if they can successfully show that their x kilometers are completely free from mines. 
Unfortunately for this venture (or fortunately as the mines would be cleared) we have an endless supply of labourers.
So not only does International Affiars, foreign aid ventures, the CF, and the justice system all benefit.


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## Infanteer (17 Nov 2004)

Been discussed before.  The military is a professional institution that focuses on the profession of arms, not a reformatory organization.


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## Spartan (17 Nov 2004)

But wouldn't you be creating professionals and thus new useful members of society?


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## NavyGrunt (17 Nov 2004)

Well Im going to again be on the other side- if this program was set up properly and the offenders used were screened I think it would be beneficial. I believe that offenders should be working in prison. However this program should be only using low risk offenders. And a heavy duty mechanic should give it a go over when they are through so the wiring story doesnt happen again.

You have to pay offenders while they are in jail. When they get out they need the small amount of cash to set themselves up so they dont reoffend out of desperation. 6.90 a day is a fair amount- and they only get that if they are on good behavior.

Prison pop is a cheap labor pool. A hundred years ago they had to sew mountie uniforms....

However I believe that the program will be half baked and all your concerns will come to fruition....thats the government way.


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## 48Highlander (17 Nov 2004)

Symchyshyn said:
			
		

> an  Idea -( not that I support prisoners having all rights ala the charter, or even being paid with my money)
> why not for petty crimes - like robbery etc - be a part of their sentence that they must successfully complete community servcie ala the military before any talks of release. Not only does the military benefit- we get a ton of new recruits that can be locked into time frames of commitments -depending on the crimes, but the justice sysem benefits as the overcrowded jails are substantially thinned.



At the same time military jails start overflowing, and discipline problems become the norm rather than the exception.

Think about it, what are the main "tools" use to enforce discipline within the CF?

1)  A charge which results in jail time, a monetary fine, or a negative mark on the members record
2)  Release from the CF

That's it.  And in my experience as an instructor anyway, release is the one used more often.  New troops behave because they don't want to fail off a course.  So if the next course I instruct on I suddenly have 5 convicts who have absolutely no interest in being there, what the hell am I supposed to do with them?  Somehow I don't think red-chits would be too effective.  In order to make your idea work, we'd have to go back to allowing physical abuse.



			
				Symchyshyn said:
			
		

> As a further condition of this - we can have sex offenders, murders and perverts -do mine clearance in any mine riddled country where everyone including children have the risk of losing an apendage every moment of their day - under the supervision of CF troops. - they are fed, and are issued a mine clearing stick and a buddy. Both have x kilometers to clear and then they will be considered for a lighter sentence if they can successfully show that their x kilometers are completely free from mines.



Yeah, good luck selling that one to the liberals   Even I think that'd be wrong, so I'd love to see the responses of the lefties.


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## McG (17 Nov 2004)

Symchyshyn said:
			
		

> As a further condition of this - we can have sex offenders, murders and perverts -do mine clearance in any mine riddled country where everyone including children have the risk of losing an apendage every moment of their day - under the supervision of CF troops. - they are fed, and are issued a mine clearing stick and a buddy. Both have x kilometers to clear and then they will be considered for a lighter sentence if they can successfully show that their x kilometers are completely free from mines.



1) Military service involves firearms training.   I don't think we need to be giving this to criminals.

2) Proper mine clearance involves the use of explosives.   I don't think we want to expose criminals to this.

3) I'm really not sure what they will do with the stick. Beat the mines?


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## pbi (17 Nov 2004)

To me the issue isn't that cons do public works: they should work, hard and productively, for whatever they get. For some of them it will be the first time in their lives. It isn't even that they have some form of motivation/reward system: anybody who has a schmick about behaviour modification (which, IIRC, is one of the roles of prisons) knows that without reward/motivation you won't do too much modification. (The reverse, of course, being swift and effective punishment...).

It's that PWGSC (and I bet it's them and NOT DND, unless it's a very low-value contract) would let this contract directly within the Govt instead of letting legitimate business bid on it. Cheers.


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## marshall sl (18 Nov 2004)

Aaron White said:
			
		

> "Well Im going to again be on the other side- if this program was set up properly and the offenders used"
> 
> Just want to clarify something. Offenders are convicted persons serving their sentance in the community. (Parole,Statutory release.) Inmates are serving their time in a pennitentiary


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## NavyGrunt (18 Nov 2004)

Actually the offenders are everyone in the system.


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## NavyGrunt (18 Nov 2004)

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/carinf/correctional_e.shtml

Notice how they talk about monitoring "offender" movement. Its a new PC millenium....Marshall


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## Boydfish (18 Nov 2004)

Oh, youse guys have not yet experienced the full joys of doing business with CORCAN.  My mother-in-law from my first marriage was a senior poly-wog for CORCAN and my ex-wife worked there too.  This outfit is staffed by those who couldn't pass the ethics exam to work as an ad executive in Quebec or join the Liberal Party of Canada...


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## marshall sl (18 Nov 2004)

I'm a corrections officer with CSC and have been for 22 years. Offenders outside, Inmates inside. it's even defined that way in Legislation. Unfortunately the HQ types like the touchy feely words.

From the Corrections and Conditional Release Act;
"inmate" means

(a) a person who is in a penitentiary pursuant to

(i) a sentence, committal or transfer to penitentiary,


"offender" means

(a) an inmate, or

(b) a person who, having been sentenced, committed or transferred to penitentiary, is outside penitentiary

(i) by reason of parole or statutory release,


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## NavyGrunt (18 Nov 2004)

marshall sl said:
			
		

> I'm a corrections officer with CSC and have been for 22 years. Offenders outside, Inmates inside. it's even defined that way in Legislation. Unfortunately the HQ types like the touchy feely words.
> 
> From the Corrections and Conditional Release Act;
> "inmate" means
> ...



Umm that says that both inmates and those in the community are both reffered to as "offenders"...you proved youself wrong.....


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## marshall sl (18 Nov 2004)

All I'm trying to tell you is the CONVICTS inside are refered to as inmates! take it as gospel. Parole officers on the street and HQ types that have never worked in side call them Offenders. Thats the way it is!


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## NavyGrunt (18 Nov 2004)

Okay you front line guys call 'em inmates got you. Im not saying you dont- Im saying calling them offenders isnt wrong. :


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Nov 2004)

Inmates/offenders/residents/whatever............=scroats.


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## Bograt (19 Nov 2004)

I like the term "victim enablers."


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## NavyGrunt (19 Nov 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> I like the term "victim enablers."



oooh this sounds like fun....how about....."Misunderstood"(thats sarcasm)


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## mrosseker (19 Nov 2004)

I must say, How many corners does the DND have to cut before it realizes that it's jeopardizing the lives of those who work for it...

Hopefully there isnt another Chicoutimi (sp?) lurking in the shadows here. I mean, if an incident (like the wiring incident described) occurs and someone loses their life, how do you think the press would react? And isnt it almost funny to think about how the PR folks for the DND would try to downplay the incident?

Can someone give me a link to an address for someone to complain to? This is rediculous.


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## Brad Sallows (19 Nov 2004)

Surely this isn't the first time.  Was it not the case that the refurbishment and movement of "pods" from the 1- and/or 5/4-ton fleet to the LSVW fleet was done by corrections guests?


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## pbi (19 Nov 2004)

Yes-you're right. Cheers.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Nov 2004)

...and how did that turn out?


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## pbi (20 Nov 2004)

Good question. While the LSVW has had alot of automotive problems (it should have been nicknamed the "Fire Truck" for the number of spontaneous combustions it has suffered), and it has brake squeal that would wake the dead, I have never heard about problems with these pods. I am not sure that the users themselves would ever know who had done the work, since it would probably be handled through Base Maintenance and PWGSC. IIRC some of this work was done at Drumheller, AB. Cheers.


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## George Wallace (20 Nov 2004)

Pbi

I ran a LSVW CP in Gagetown this summer for the Inf School CAP courses and it had serious wiring problems.  It had had a fire reported by the Crse that used it prior to our signing for it.  When we were done, there were more gremlins in the electrical wiring.  After reading of the Fire in a cab here, from a refurbishing job by CORCAN, I am beginning to wonder?????  Did the CP I was using come from a CORCAN contract or not is a question I cannot answer, but just now am questioning.

GW


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