# IR Postings [Merged]



## Tewkster (23 Apr 2007)

What are the regulations for an IR posting.  A friend of mine is moving from Trenton to Borden, but his wife is talking about staying in Trenton.  He will take an IR posting but will he still receive the same benefits compared to moving his family?


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## SupersonicMax (23 Apr 2007)

Tewkster said:
			
		

> What are the regulations for an IR posting.  A friend of mine is moving from Trenton to Borden, but his wife is talking about staying in Trenton.  He will take an IR posting but will he still receive the same benefits compared to moving his family?



What do you mean by benefits?

Max


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## Bzzliteyr (23 Apr 2007)

On an IR posting, the army will move you but the family stays "home".  That means you are not entitled to a "move" per se but you will be entitled to a certain allowance that comes to about $370 a month provided you are living in the shacks at your current posting and that you do not return home for extended periods of time on course.  If shacks are not available to you in your new home, then there is a provision to allow you to find a suitable residence (up to a certain amount) and they will pay for meals, cable, phone, etc.. I believe.  By the way, if you live in the shacks they will pay for food at the kitchen.

I am currently IR in Quebec and I live in the single shacks and eat at the mess hall.  I have no way of bringing my family up to visit as I have no room.  I can't wait for them to decide to let me move out!!


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## Tewkster (23 Apr 2007)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> What do you mean by benefits?
> 
> Max


Posting allowance, moving expenses, etc...


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## armyvern (23 Apr 2007)

You want Addendum 4 of this link:

http://www.dnd.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/CF_Integrated_Relocation_Program0607_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=99


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## PO2FinClk (23 Apr 2007)

Tewkster said:
			
		

> Posting allowance, moving expenses, etc...


Yes, sort of. You will get 1/2 Posting Allowance and travel expenses and the sort.

In order to have clear and concise info, your friend should contact CFIRP or review their policy.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/CF_Integrated_Relocation_Program0607_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=99

Even more important for him to consult CFIRP, or his Claims Section, is that no pers on IR are in SQ in Borden, not enough accomodation. Rather they are all on High Rate Sep Exp which his CLaims Section could likely provide him. 

In either case he MUST speak to CFIRP if he wants to have actual data rather then anonymous forum feedback.


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## Bzzliteyr (23 Apr 2007)

The librarian.... she lives!!!! I sent you a PM.. ever get it?

As for the SQ situation.. Valcartier is going that way too.. bi\g meeting tomorrow.  I can't wait for a house when I get back from A'stan.


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## armyvern (23 Apr 2007)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> The librarian.... she lives!!!! I sent you a PM.. ever get it?



Yes, she lives on IR at the high-rate...

and is on her ILQ...

and can not access DIN...

and can not answer you...

and has a career manager who is here on his CQ...

she will be remaining on IR.


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## imahikergirl (23 Apr 2007)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dcba/pdf/Aide_Memoire07_e.pdf

You can read up on the entitlement while on IR on page 26 - Temporary Relocation.  This is the policy followed by the pers doing up the monthly claims.  Each base has it's own policy based on the SQ occupancy level, as to whether the mbr is on high rate (off base) or low rate (in shacks w/R&Q provided).


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## combatbuddha (31 Aug 2007)

Situation
A soldier is posted to a CF Det on an IR and has to live on the economy because the Det has no quarters available. He has been told that because he is "living out" his seperation allowance will not be paid, and only his apartment rental and groceries. He will also be entitiled to the regular LTA entitlements.
Does this sound right?


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2007)

combatbuddha said:
			
		

> Situation
> A soldier is posted to a CF Det on an IR and has to live on the economy because the Det has no quarters available. He has been told that because he is "living out" his seperation allowance will not be paid, and only his apartment rental and groceries. He will also be entitiled to the regular LTA entitlements.
> Does this sound right?



I don't know where you are getting your information from, but considering that IR rates are called the following:

*High Rate Commercial SE* (Seperation expense) ($22.95 per day less 2 days per month in lieu of annual leave - no receipts required);
*Low Rate Non-Commercial SE* (Seperation expense) ($11.98/day less 2 days per month in lieu of annual leave - no receipts required).

You should reconsult your source.

On top of the $22.95 / day that he will receive to buy groceries with and as a cost of his seperation, he can claim rent, utilities (phone, heat, hydro, cable etc) up to the max ceiling limit established for the location to where he is located on his IR.

For me, my max ceiling for rent, utilities is $1080.00 / month. I moved into a fully furnished apartment, had the landlord install high-speed internet, digital cable, and phone and include it all within my rent. I pay 1000.00 per month ... no utilities ... nothing. I write him a cheque, he gives me a receipt, I hand it in to the OR and they cut me a cheque to reimburse me the 1000.00 bucks (you can claim this in advance also) and they also cut the cheque for that $22.95/day less the 2 days/month for leave. 

If I did not pay for my utilities inclusive as I do, I would still be entitled to claim the costs of them along with my rent up to the $1080.00 ceiling limit.
IE ... If my rent were 800.00, I could also hand in my utility bills and would be reimbursed their costs up to $280.00.

Vern

My situation:

I am currently posted IR to a CF Det and am required to live on the economy because there are not any singles quarters (or bases actually) in the province where I am situated.

As such, I collect the HIGH RATE of IR being in commercial lodgings (Hotel or apartment etc). Those that live in CF housing receive the LOW RATE of IR.

Details of entitlements can be found here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/64601/post-595296.html#msg595296

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/64601/post-595970.html#msg595970


_Crap...Edited to change this_


> On top of the *$22.95 / month *


 _to this:_


> On top of the $22.95 / day


 _Imagine that!! _


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## combatbuddha (1 Sep 2007)

That is the info I am looking for, as a friend of mine is being told different from the Det he is posted to.
The information I got is from him.
Thanks


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## armyvern (1 Sep 2007)

combatbuddha said:
			
		

> That is the info I am looking for, as a friend of mine is being told different from the Det he is posted to.
> The information I got is from him.
> Thanks



Does s/he happen to be a 911er posted to a Det in the east??  >


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## combatbuddha (1 Sep 2007)

No, a EME guy posted to Southern Ontario


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## armyvern (1 Sep 2007)

combatbuddha said:
			
		

> No, a EME guy posted to Southern Ontario



Bummer.  :-[

 ;D

Next time I access the DIN (it'll be a couple of weeks I think), I'll send you the electronic version of the applicable IR regs.


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## ModlrMike (1 Sep 2007)

CBI 209.997 would be a good starting point.

If he's being told "it's policy" then he should respond with "show me the regulation". A policy is only as strong as the regulation it's built from, and no policy can stand without a regulation to reinforce it.


_***Edited for spelling.***_


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## PO2FinClk (1 Sep 2007)

Am not at work and a bit vague on the latest policies pertaining to IR. However if I recall correctly a CANFORGEN (either 06 or 07) was released detailing all the inherent changes. To that extent CBI 209.997 was to be rescinded in lieu of the CANFORGEN. I use the past tense as "I think" a follow up message was issued effectively delaying the implemenation.

All that to say that CANFORGEN's were released on this issue and should consulted to determine the applicable interpretation of policy. Time permitting I will re-look at this issue to ensure I myself and aware of all changes in place.


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## armyvern (1 Sep 2007)

I've got an email at work from DCBA that my Chief Clerk sent up to clarify my entitlements after those CANFORGENs last fall. The utilities, rent, etc are all confirmed within it.

I can't Section 33 my own, but I do Section 33 all the other IR claims our Det looks after each month.


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## dapaterson (1 Sep 2007)

Vern:  I suspect you apply section 34 of the FAA vice section 33.

Section 32:  Funds available
Section 34:  Everything's hunky-dory
Section 33:  Release the funds


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## armyvern (4 Sep 2007)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Vern:  I suspect you apply section 34 of the FAA vice section 33.
> 
> Section 32:  Funds available
> Section 34:  Everything's hunky-dory
> Section 33:  Release the funds



Nope, I'm a Section 33 girl ... it goes with the job ... I love to hate my budget ...  :-\


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## kincanucks (4 Sep 2007)

Every Base/Unit/Det should have an IR policy document which every person who is on IR is required to sign.  This document lays out the entitlements for that particular geographical location.  Check with the applicable OR to see a copy.


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## armyvern (28 Sep 2007)

And this just into my email:



> Could you please forward an email to the Chief Clerks down to the clerks who are responsible for TR/IR claims that the meal rate has increased effective 1 Oct 07
> 
> NEW: $23.34 effective 01 Oct 07
> 
> ...



Whoooo!! A few more pennies towards caffeine!! (I will not say what type again ... too many pervs on the boards ...)


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## GAP (28 Sep 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> And this just into my email:
> 
> Whoooo!! A few more pennies towards caffeine!! (I will not say what type again ... too many pervs on the boards ...)



Sooooo........you are not willing to tell the masses what you use for a stimulant with exception that it may/maynot include caffeine in some form. That form being the issue in contention, because you insinuate that the "pervs" will misconstrue its' original "intent" ?


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## Nfld Sapper (28 Sep 2007)

Yup and I know what it is    ;D but I won't say.


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## top4u20 (8 Oct 2009)

I hope this has not been covered but according to my search it has not. I was wondering if anyone on these boards has done this before?
My wife and I (no kids) want to sell our current home and move our household to our final destination 1000km away, and I agree with her (many reasons). Unfortunately I have to stay back and live with a friend for a long time. I do not retire for 8 years. I'm expecting a posting next year or the latest the following year(not the final location). 
Would I get IR on that posting?
I also understand that its too soon too qualify for a paid IPR which is OK as its our decision to do this early.

Thoughts?


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## PMedMoe (8 Oct 2009)

I would think that if you and your wife sell and she moves away, you will not be entitled to IR on a posting as you would be living apart already.

I do know of a few people whose spouses did not go on posting with them and who do not receive IR allowances.


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## top4u20 (8 Oct 2009)

Thats a good point PMedMoe, I wonder if anyone knows that for sure? Do you know why on your second point the members were not getting IR? Was that the same reason?

Cheers


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## PMedMoe (8 Oct 2009)

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> Do you know why on your second point the members were not getting IR? Was that the same reason?



Yes.  They already lived apart when they were posted.


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## George Wallace (8 Oct 2009)

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> I hope this has not been covered but according to my search it has not. I was wondering if anyone on these boards has done this before?
> My wife and I (no kids) want to sell our current home and move our household to our final destination 1000km away, and I agree with her (many reasons). Unfortunately I have to stay back and live with a friend for a long time. I do not retire for 8 years. I'm expecting a posting next year or the latest the following year(not the final location).
> Would I get IR on that posting?
> I also understand that its too soon too qualify for a paid IPR which is OK as its our decision to do this early.
> ...



You are not entitled to IR.  You and your wife have made a conscious decision to sell your home and for her to move.  The CF did not post you.  The CF did not cause you to make this decision.  You are responsible for your own actions here, and not entitled to any compensation.  

Another point that you will now like to cover, would be your entitlements in eight years, when you do retire.  As you will no longer have a home to sell, and the current move by your wife is not covered, you will not be compensated for any fees involved in the sale and purchase of a home on your retirement.  You will likely only be compensated for your transportation and movement of a few hundred pounds of personal luggage, to your final place of residence on leaving the CF.  

If your wife moves now, you will be held holding all the costs of her move, not be entitled to IR, and have very few entitlements on Release.  

It is a Loose, loose, loose situation.


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## top4u20 (8 Oct 2009)

Thanks for the input G.W. I pretty much figured IR would not happen and I was aware of the final move not covered. 
Its a difficult decision for sure but one that will be better for us in the end. We can purchase a home that is 1/3 the price of what we are in now and be in a place we want to be for good. The biggest downside is being apart for so long but we are mature enough to handle that. Glad to hear there are others in this same situation across the country.


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## George Wallace (8 Oct 2009)

In that case, I was faced with an identical situation.  If the home in the new location is so cheap, refinance your current home and purchase the "second" residence.  For my last few years I was paying two mortgages, and with the exception of not being able to collect IR, I was able to use all the entitlements offered on Retirement.  When I sold my home in Pet, the money from the sale paid off the mortgage on the other home in the final location.  My move was covered, as were the fees for the new purchase of the new home; the receipts I had to keep until such time as I Released. 

I don't know how regulations may have changed, so it would be something that you would be advised to look into.  

Two mortgages made finances rather tight for a couple of years, but now I am mortgage free.


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## Petard (8 Oct 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You are not entitled to IR.  You and your wife have made a conscious decision to sell your home and for her to move.  The CF did not post you.  The CF did not cause you to make this decision.  You are responsible for your own actions here, and not entitled to any compensation.
> 
> Another point that you will now like to cover, would be your entitlements in eight years, when you do retire.  As you will no longer have a home to sell, and the current move by your wife is not covered, you will not be compensated for any fees involved in the sale and purchase of a home on your retirement.  You will likely only be compensated for your transportation and movement of a few hundred pounds of personal luggage, to your final place of residence on leaving the CF.
> 
> ...


You need to throttle back a bit George
That doesn't sound right, and I'll have to check to be sure, but I do recall being told last year at the release section something very different.
IIRC the advice was that if the member has designated the point he's moving his wife to, and buying a house there, as the point of release, then there is compensation for that move, but there will not be for any in between, but you would be correct on the assumption that there would be no entitlement to IR as the separation is somewhat self imposed.
kind of the reverse to the situation I'm in. I couldn't afford to move my wife and stepdaughter to where I was living, but marrying someone that lives far away by itself does not constitute an entitlement to IR. The way the CC explained the basic premise of IR to me back then (3 years ago) kind of makes sense, you have to be collocated and the military require you to move away before  there is IR compensation.


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## top4u20 (8 Oct 2009)

George...great idea on the 2 mortgage idea but definitely cant afford that one.

Petard.....I think what you mean is the IPR (Intended place of residence)allocation which is upon release? From what I gather on this you can apply for it but only if you are within 5 years of CRA or have a min of 20 years of service. And from what I understand its alot of paperwork. If this move goes ahead I will definitely keep all receipts just in case but I presume if its not applied for at the time of move then it would be invalid.
Thanks so far for all the great thoughts!


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## machiavelli (8 Apr 2013)

Gents after spending 22 years in the service I am now recieving my second posting, and I ned some advice. I am coming back to Halifax from the Montreal Area. As I come back I am not to certain that I will be moving the family here as my children have one year left in CGEP and High school also my wife who works on a contract basis renewed until Jan 2014. So here is my problem. I cannot see my family coming back with me  and I have told my CM this, but do I still have entitlement to a HHT? For all of the admin sme's what am I entitled to.  I am not certain about IR in Halifax and I have not been to see a reloc spec and won't see them until my message is cut next week. Conflict of interest/ethics aside, I in partnership with a friend have a building here in Halifax that has 6 apartments .There is a company that takes care of this for us, am I allowed to rent one of them? The next question is I have a dog of whom my wife has said "it will simply die without you around" and I tend to believe this as the girl has been with me for 10 years and when I go to the field it wimpers until I come back. Can I bring her with me, it will make my life much better. I have talked with some people but there seems to be many differening opinions and no one can pinpoint that in this..QR&O/DAOD/CFIRP/ etc . So these are my questions, can you with your informed wisdom please advise.


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## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2013)

Two postings in 22 years?  Wow....  

Anyway, yes, you are entitled to an HHT.  Not sure about taking the dog, but I'd do it anyway, if I were you.

As far as renting an apartment in a building you are half owner of, I can't see why you state "conflict of interest/ethics aside".  I'd think the powers that be would think quite differently of your rent also being income to you.  Just my  :2c:


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## Sig_Des (8 Apr 2013)

Have you looked at the IRP Guide? I'm currently in the process, and am looking at an unaccompanied move

IRP Guide:
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2011/index-eng.asp

Sect 11.02, wrt Unaccompanied moves, IR and HHT

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2011/chapter-chapitre-11-eng.asp#sec-11-02


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## Pat in Halifax (8 Apr 2013)

A Relocation clerk (military) at your home Unit can answer this and all questions. If someone doesn't beat me to it, I will try to remember to PM you the CFIRP link from work tomorrow.

As I went to hit 'POST', I see someone "beat me to it".

Pat


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## machiavelli (8 Apr 2013)

Thanks Guys ....I know eh two postings but there were many but just two out of area...posting to other units within the GA were the norm. As far as the income/paying myself for the place thats what I said and I don't see myself living there anyways, I am older then the tenants who are mostly university students. But as always around the lunch table someone planted the seed when they said there was no guidance on it . As for the clerk, I haven't seen them yet as I hoped that maybe I would get some reponses here that would generate a question bank for me when I get there also as the message isn't generate ,my CM said monday next week when he gets back to work he will send it out, I didn't take the time to go see one. WRT my dog I am hoping to bring the old girl on the posting with me, coming home to an excited dog always makes me smile. Again Guys thanks
Cheers


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## DAA (8 Apr 2013)

Clerks in your OR are "forbidden" on providing relocation advice.  It has to come from Brookefield.  Also, I think they removed "Pet Shipment" from the entitlements but you can pretty much take what ever will fit into your vehicle.


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## Pat in Halifax (8 Apr 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Clerks in your OR are "forbidden" on providing relocation advice.  It has to come from Brookefield.  Also, I think they removed "Pet Shipment" from the entitlements but you can pretty much take what ever will fit into your vehicle.


It may have changed recently but when I was IR posted to Ottawa in Dec 2010, I was encouraged (by the Brookfield agent here in Halifax) to set up a meeting with the WO at the BOR at Stad. They cannot process anything but as far as I know, as every individual will have different circumstances, they can direct you to specific articles within the ref and advise you on what may be coming. I was also 'assigned' a MCpl on arrival in Ottawa...again, the policy may have changed.


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## DAA (9 Apr 2013)

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> It may have changed recently but when I was IR posted to Ottawa in Dec 2010, I was encouraged (by the Brookfield agent here in Halifax) to set up a meeting with the WO at the BOR at Stad. They cannot process anything but as far as I know, as every individual will have different circumstances, they can direct you to specific articles within the ref and advise you on what may be coming. I was also 'assigned' a MCpl on arrival in Ottawa...again, the policy may have changed.



Pat, your response is true.  The Clerks will "administer" the IR portion (ie; entitlements and benfits) but the relocation part is strictly Brookefield.  Sect 11.2 of the CFIRP Manual (APS 2012/2013 Version).

Brookefield will look after TNL (Travel to New Location), Shipment of UAB, Shipment of Vehicle and an HHT if necessary.  OR Clerks will look after obtainiing the approval for the IR and briefing the member on what IR Benefits apply and are available at the new location.


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## Pat in Halifax (9 Apr 2013)

Fair enough and I see what you are saying. Funny enough, of the 3 examples, I had to arrange two of them on my own (UAB shipment thru CMTT and vehicle shipment) though I was reimbursed for any arrangements tied to either of these. I must say, in the time between my posting to Ottawa and coming back late last summer, Brookfield (or atleast the agent I was assigned) had changed their attitude dramatically. In my after move report I actually stated that they could get rid of 10 agent XXXXs for every one agent XXXX they retained.

Also, here is the DIN link though I suspect you already have it?
http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dcba/engraph/CF_Integrated_Relocation_Program_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=99


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## 63 Delta (27 May 2013)

Ill ask my question in this already started post instead of starting my own:

I possibly will be going on IR to Ottawa this summer. I have a military service spouse who will not be getting posted and will be staying in Petawawa. I was told today that there are housing restrictions for IR. IE, I was told you are only allowed to rent a 1 bedroom apt. 

The housing suggestions I received were for Extended Stay Canada which charges $1600 a month for a furnished 1 Bdrm incl utilities. 

But I have found 2 Bdrm apts closer to my course, that are furnished and for cheaper prices. 

The reason I ask, my wife and I have a toddler, and if she were to go on exercise/tasking/course it would be best to have a somewhat functionig apt, vice a spruced up Hotel Suite.


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## PMedMoe (27 May 2013)

Last I heard the rules for IR postings were one bedroom rentals only.


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## dapaterson (27 May 2013)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> Ill ask my question in this already started post instead of starting my own:
> 
> I possibly will be going on IR to Ottawa this summer. I have a military service spouse who will not be getting posted and will be staying in Petawawa. I was told today that there are housing restrictions for IR. IE, I was told you are only allowed to rent a 1 bedroom apt.
> 
> ...



Carefully review all the rules on IR.  I am not an IR guru, but I recall that having a family member live with you can lose your IR benefits.


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## PMedMoe (27 May 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Carefully review all the rules on IR.  I am not an IR guru, but I recall that having a family member live with you can lose your IR benefits.



Unless this has changed:

Dependants who visit, reside with or occupy overnight at the temporary accommodation location can do so to an accumulative period of 30 days in a 365 day period. At the 30 day cumulative period, the entitlement to separation expense for that restricted or prohibited posting terminates.

Refs: CBI 208.997(5)(l) and QR & O 26.02

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/db-as/faq/se-faf-eng.asp


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## 63 Delta (27 May 2013)

Appreciate the links and the help! Answers my question. Not a big deal, either way!


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## TCM621 (28 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Clerks in your OR are "forbidden" on providing relocation advice.  It has to come from Brookefield.  Also, I think they removed "Pet Shipment" from the entitlements but you can pretty much take what ever will fit into your vehicle.



I just moved my dog and you can still claim pet shipment but it comes from the personal envelope. So basically it comes out fo your posting allowance but before taxes.


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## Bzzliteyr (28 May 2013)

In regards to the question on renting your own place (which is what I wanted to do in Montreal when I was posted IR there) the answer I was given was "no".

They preferred I rent a fully furnished place in Hochelaga Maisonneuve for $1300 rather than the measly $850 I was going to rent myself my house for.

Silly Army.  Also, I rent it out for $2200 a month now, unfurnished aside from applicances, nothing included.  I guess I was undercutting myself.


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## 63 Delta (8 Jun 2013)

I have a place I'm ready to rent, but there are two questions I need to figure out before I can give a definite answer to the Realtor. 

1. Anybody have an example of a good escape clause? An example I have is "a 30 day notice is accepted upon proof of purchase of a new home, proof of cancellation for a military course, or proof of posting relocation." Any other suggestions or things I should include?

2. Im not posted tell 21 Jul, but for obvious reasons the owner would like someone in immediately. I already told her June will be no go, but is it possible to have the move in date 1 Jul for IR, IOT to close the place?


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## Pat in Halifax (8 Jun 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Unless this has changed:
> 
> Dependants who visit, reside with or occupy overnight at the temporary accommodation location can do so to an accumulative period of 30 days in a 365 day period. At the 30 day cumulative period, the entitlement to separation expense for that restricted or prohibited posting terminates.
> 
> ...



Moe:
That was purely for the daily separation expense which no longer exists for those on IR. Prior to it's demise, If your spouse visited, on the form you submitted at the end of the month (can't remember the form #), you had to indicate this, and those days were abated from your daily allowance. Some didn't do this but for the sake of a few bucks, I didn't bother risking it. 
Hulk:
I am going to suggest that you could probably ask a real estate freind/family member this exact question, no?


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## 63 Delta (8 Jun 2013)

You make a good point on asking a realtor friend, but so many are on IR, and pretty much everyone is told to have an escape clause, that Im sure someone has a solid example that they have had to use.


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## Pat in Halifax (8 Jun 2013)

'Most' places leasing to DND/gov't employees (in Ottawa anyway) are aware of this and should have one ready to add. I actually looked for my rental agreement from when I was in Ottawa (I am anal about keeping stuff like that!) but couldn't find it. If you don't get a response in the coming days, I still keep in touch with the landlord I had there and I can ask her to email the form she used. Her building (about 150 units) was about 60% CF on IR! She knew the rules and what was coming down the pipes better than the majority of us!
Good Luck.

I really didn't look forward to going and struggled a bit while I was there but looking back on the near 2 years, it wasn't so bad. Many will tell you it is a beautiful city and I wont argue that fact but I bet you Beijing is a beautiful city too but I wouldn't want to work there for two years!!!

Pat


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## 63 Delta (8 Jun 2013)

The escape clause I wrote is one I saw from a local IR rental unit in Ottawa. So Im fairly confident its a well written clause, but would love a second opinion! Appreciate the advice... and I dont agree with the Ottawa/Bejing comparison.. I love Ottawa!

One of the places I was looking at renting is apparently an apt for a Senator... I jokingly asked if it was Mike Duffy's... 

But I love Ottawa; The nightlife, the culture, and the political intrigue... and ill be in the middle of all of it!


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## DAA (8 Jun 2013)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> I have a place I'm ready to rent, but there are two questions I need to figure out before I can give a definite answer to the Realtor.
> 1. Anybody have an example of a good escape clause? An example I have is "a 30 day notice is accepted upon proof of purchase of a new home, proof of cancellation for a military course, or proof of posting relocation." Any other suggestions or things I should include?
> 2. Im not posted tell 21 Jul, but for obvious reasons the owner would like someone in immediately. I already told her June will be no go, but is it possible to have the move in date 1 Jul for IR, IOT to close the place?



Check with your current Base as I believe that CFIRP Art 7.04 (Rent in Advance) does apply to personnel proceeding on IR.  At least it did when I was posted to Ottawa years ago.

Your 30-day clause looks good.  Just a basic statement within the paragraph dealing with "Early Termination" needs to read "........can be terminated on 30-days written notice".


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## 63 Delta (8 Jun 2013)

Thanks for the help again DAA. First and Last is approved, I was more wondering if they will let me rent the place for the whole month of July, vice just providing enough to cover when I move to Ottawa on the 21 Jul. I cant see why they wont, but didn't want to commit to something I couldn't back up.


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## tijutk (4 Feb 2018)

I moved with wife and 2 kids to petawawa in April 2017. My wife couldnt find a job in petawawa and she wants to move back to Toronto and get back to work. will i be eligible for IR if she moves back to toronto?


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## garb811 (4 Feb 2018)

No.  IR is only applicable if you move and your family stays in location.


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## Mediman14 (5 Jun 2018)

Does anyone know the location of the policy/ direction on COS dates? I have a subordinate who is asking how long a COS date can be postponed due to the inability to get an PMQ. I have been trying to find the policy on this. I have checked the CBI'S etc, but I can't seem to find it.

Thanks in advance


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## dapaterson (5 Jun 2018)

As I recall: Between commanding officers, a month; more than that and DGMC gets involved.

Don't have the reference handy, sorry - but it may be on the message.


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## kratz (5 Jun 2018)

The IRP Directive 11.2.02 states:



> Unaccompanied moves
> 
> When accommodations have not been secured or they are not available prior to COS or RFD, CF members, who intend to relocate their dependants and/or HG&E to the new location, may proceed unaccompanied to the new place of duty on a restricted basis for a maximum period of six months. This does not apply to Reserve Force members serving on Class “B” reserve service. Reserve Force members on Class “B” reserve service shall relocate immediately as per Statement of Understanding (SOU).
> 
> CF members shall request an Imposed Restriction (IR) through the approving authority, as soon as it is known that the unaccompanied period will exceed six months. IR is administered by the support base. This does not apply to Reserve Force members serving on Class “B” reserve service. Reserve Force members on Class “B” reserve service shall relocate immediately as per Statement of Understanding (SOU).


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## Mediman14 (5 Jun 2018)

kratz said:
			
		

> The IRP Directive 11.2.02 states:


Is IR request ever denied? What happens if it was denied?


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## George Wallace (5 Jun 2018)

COS will be the responsibility of the Gaining Unit.  I have had a COS date strictly adhered to, when I asked for a change of dates, due to the Gaining Units requirements.


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## garb811 (5 Jun 2018)

Mediman14 said:
			
		

> Is IR request ever denied? What happens if it was denied?


As stated in the policy, providing the intent is to move their family once they get an RHU the first six months are automatic.

Although the member has to apply after that, it won't be refused for a valid reason and not having secured accommodations for the family is one.  The member should apply to the CM via their CoC about three months out thru a questionnaire that the CM will provide if it already isn't at hand in the new unit.  

Of note, once the IR past six months is approved, if the member secures accommodation the CM must be asked to lift the IR in order for the move of HG&E to be authorized.


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## Mediman14 (5 Jun 2018)

Thanks for the responses!

I don't feel comfortable asking my CoC, as they often break the rules to meet their own needs on a regular basis and the attitude "it's my way or no way" doesn't help any.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Jun 2018)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> As I recall: Between commanding officers, a month; more than that and DGMC gets involved.



Unless it's changed since 2013, you can request to change your RFD (Report For Duty) date 30 days either side of your COS date, agreement between losing/gaining COs.  It was basically "if losing CO agrees to Change in RFD, losing unit will contact gaining" or words to that effect  (when a mbr requests).

To change your actual COS date, that is the career manager shop and that requires a new posting message;  subsequently, if you do this (change your COS and get a new posting message) and you are mid-point thru your move admin with BGRS, they will have to close the current file and start over again from scratch (at least, that was the way in '13).  I went thru this on my last posting and in the end, and sucked up some extra driving for a few weeks as my house wasn't going to be built and ready for move in at the COS date +30 point.



> Don't have the reference handy, sorry - but it may be on the message.



Unless it's changed, or my memory is farther gone than I think it is,  it will be in the Military Human Resources Records Procedures (MHRRP) manual;  I don't recall the exact chap/article but might still have an electronic copy at work of my Change in RFD request.


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## McG (6 Jun 2018)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> COS will be the responsibility of the Gaining Unit.  I have had a COS date strictly adhered to, when I asked for a change of dates, due to the Gaining Units requirements.


No.  COS is set by CM.  RFD (Report For Duty) is agreed between gaining and losing COs and may be 30 days +/- of COS.


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## George Wallace (6 Jun 2018)

MCG said:
			
		

> No.  COS is set by CM.  RFD (Report For Duty) is agreed between gaining and losing COs and may be 30 days +/- of COS.


  

Sorry.

Got my COS and RFD mixed up; the Gaining Unit would not change my RFD.

(It was back in '89)


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## kev994 (6 Jun 2018)

One of the clarification bulletins where you get the link to the CFIRP policy reminds COs that to the max extent possible they are to allow a change in RFD (up to 30 days). That said I have had it denied for operational reasons, this alleviated the need for a door to door move even though I had set one up.


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## Mediman14 (12 Jul 2018)

I asked one of the RSM's at the mess today about what is the max a Mbr can ask for a Change of COS Date. Apparently, there is no min or max time frame a Mbr could ask for. Nor is there any direction/ order/ policy indicating it. I didn't challenge him on this, but is this accurate? So a Mbr can ask for a 6 month change of COS date providing there is good reason? What is the Realistic request for Change of COS Date? Is it 30 days? 60 days? 
Honestly within my 18 years plus, I never had any dealings or any subordinates who ever requested a Change of COS Date so I am unfamiliar with the subject!


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## PuckChaser (12 Jul 2018)

You can ask for whatever you want, there's no guarantee it's going to be approved, though. 30 days left or right is usually just RSM to RSM email, anything else needs to go to the Career Shop and they'll be asking questions.


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## SupersonicMax (12 Jul 2018)

COS does not change when CO’s (not RSMs) agree to change the RFD date.  Only if the RFD date needs to change by more than 30 days does the COS need to be changed.  It is a request that goes from requesting CO to other CO and approved by D Mil C.


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## Gunner98 (13 Jul 2018)

Report Date Change  Policy:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2009-clarification-chg-report-date.page

Commanding Officer's responsibilities
Commanding Officers have a responsibility to be as flexible as possible in the adjustment of reporting dates to enable CF members to coordinate their move effectively. Adjusting the reporting date represents one of the best ways of ensuring ILM&M is kept to a minimum and effect a door-to-door move.


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## PuckChaser (17 Jul 2018)

Removed the post about someone's personal issues with their CO. This forum is not the place to air that dirty laundry out.

- Milnet.ca Staff


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## hattrick72 (13 Aug 2018)

I am on IR now and am wondering about separation expense. I understood they removed a lot of the benefits like food and daily rate separation because it was against TB policy. Food was because you are not paying to feed yourself at home while away so why get the benefit. I can buy that argument I guess.... but that lead me to believe that other expenses would qualify i.e. internet and cable if paid for at your primary residence could be claimed while on IR bc it is an expense that is due to separation for military reasons (I think one could argue it is a choice and not a reason but this would negate the need for it in the first place and the need to supply quarters or economy rent). My reason for IR is my spouse does not graduate university in Halifax until October of this year and my posting was in July (RFD Aug) of this year.

Why are only the connection fees covered and not the monthly cost for basic internet and basic cable? I have spoke with someone who was on IR in Wainwright and they had to cover these costs, as I will have to cover the cost in Comox should I decide to get the services. 

I choose IR in order to access accommodations with cooking facilities (they are not available to unaccompanied pers). If I sell my house without a Q available I will have to move somewhere which would put me on a Pri 3 waitlist no hope of a Q during my stay here (1200 for a Q vs 2000 plus for townhouse on economy). No Q was guaranteed to be available until next APS. I would gladly pay for a Q and a house until my closing date if one was available but I am off the list once on IR.... Will need to come off IR prior to the posting season in order to be high on the que. Didn't realize this stipulation when I pulled the trigger on the IR memo. 

Why do we make things so difficult for our members during posting?? I am hoping the expenses are being misinterpreted but after talking to another member from wr AB I am thinking it isn't.....

Any thoughts on what is an applicable expense claim?


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## Gunner98 (14 Aug 2018)

Has it occurred to you that the cost of Basic Internet and cable should offset by the lower cable and Internet costs/demands at your primary residence.


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## garb811 (14 Aug 2018)

hattrick72 said:
			
		

> I am on IR now and am wondering about separation expense. I understood they removed a lot of the benefits like food and daily rate separation because it was against TB policy. Food was because you are not paying to feed yourself at home while away so why get the benefit. I can buy that argument I guess.... but that lead me to believe that other expenses would qualify i.e. internet and cable if paid for at your primary residence could be claimed while on IR bc it is an expense that is due to separation for military reasons (I think one could argue it is a choice and not a reason but this would negate the need for it in the first place and the need to supply quarters or economy rent). My reason for IR is my spouse does not graduate university in Halifax until October of this year and my posting was in July (RFD Aug) of this year.
> 
> Why are only the connection fees covered and not the monthly cost for basic internet and basic cable? I have spoke with someone who was on IR in Wainwright and they had to cover these costs, as I will have to cover the cost in Comox should I decide to get the services.
> 
> ...


As always, the best source of information is an actual SME as opposed to anonymous pers on the internet.  You should have had a talk with your local IR clerk prior to making a decision to go on IR and, if you haven't had a meeting with your current IR clerk as to what your actual benefits are, you need to do that ASAP.

Nobody here is able to definitively answer the "whys" you are asking, or give you any nuggets of hidden benefits you aren't being told about.  Unfortunately, IR isn't the cash cow it was in the past but at least it is still an option to get some of your expenses covered.


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## PMedMoe (14 Aug 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Has it occurred to you that the cost of Basic Internet and cable should offset by the lower cable and Internet costs/demands at your primary residence.



What??  So, if one less person is watching TV or using internet, your bill magically drops??   :stars:


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## Gunner98 (14 Aug 2018)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> What??  So, if one less person is watching TV or using internet, your bill magically drops??   :stars:



Moe, not sure if your are being sarcastic? I would think that your internet usage (data requirement) should certainly decrease and the number of tvs that you can watch at one time should go down as well.  If it is a two person household and one person is on IR then in theory the decrease should be 50%.


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## PMedMoe (14 Aug 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Moe, not sure if your are being sarcastic? I would think that your internet usage (data requirement) should certainly decrease and the number of tvs that you can watch at one time should go down as well.  If it is a two person household and one person is on IR then in theory the decrease should be 50%.



I'm not being sarcastic (yes, I know, shocking).  

If my cable/internet/phone package at my primary residence costs X amount of dollars, that amount isn't going to be lower because one less person is using the internet or cable. Data usage perhaps, but not the basic bill.  For example, in Toronto, my package was about $70/month.  That amount didn't decrease when I was away from home.

Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying.   :dunno:


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## BeyondTheNow (14 Aug 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Moe, not sure if your are being sarcastic? I would think that your internet usage (data requirement) should certainly decrease and the number of tvs that you can watch at one time should go down as well.  If it is a two person household and one person is on IR then in theory the decrease should be 50%.





			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I'm not being sarcastic (yes, I know, shocking).
> 
> If my cable/internet/phone package at my primary residence costs X amount of dollars, that amount isn't going to be lower because one less person is using the internet or cable. Data usage perhaps, but not the basic bill.  For example, in Toronto, my package was about $70/month.  That amount didn't decrease when I was away from home.
> 
> Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying.   :dunno:



Yup, same for most. People's bill is determined by the package they selected when they signed up for said service. The same amount will be due each month regardless of whether customer utilized full allowable service (x amount of GBs, unlimited, etc.) or not. The bill will change if customer exceeds package amount, but it certainly doesn't drop if the maximum isn't used. If there's such a plan that exists in the reverse, or even one that allows carry-over of amounts not used from month before, I've never heard of such a set-up.


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## McG (14 Aug 2018)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Moe, not sure if your are being sarcastic? I would think that your internet usage (data requirement) should certainly decrease and the number of tvs that you can watch at one time should go down as well.  If it is a two person household and one person is on IR then in theory the decrease should be 50%.


Does not work that way. Even if you reduce your internet monthly data subscription by 50%, the reduction to your bill is not 50%.
And reduction in cable costs? You can expect 0% savings there because it is not pay per volume.


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## hattrick72 (14 Aug 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> As always, the best source of information is an actual SME as opposed to anonymous pers on the internet.  You should have had a talk with your local IR clerk prior to making a decision to go on IR and, if you haven't had a meeting with your current IR clerk as to what your actual benefits are, you need to do that ASAP.
> 
> Nobody here is able to definitively answer the "whys" you are asking, or give you any nuggets of hidden benefits you aren't being told about.  Unfortunately, IR isn't the cash cow it was in the past but at least it is still an option to get some of your expenses covered.



Got it. SME here says only connection charges are covered. Connection charges are covered on a move so I am not sure how that is an additional expense. I did not talk to the clerk in Halifax my mistake for sure. I guess I am looking for consistency, what are other bases doing? Hoping someone on IR at another base can chime in on what actual expenses are being covered. 

The SME here also said that if I was on the economy the base would cover basic cable costs. It is word for word the same under the heading Private Accommodation and Public Accommodation for separation expense entitlements for additional costs. 

My other question is who is the overall SME in Ottawa. I have looked through MILPERS Instruction on IR and CBI but I don't see anything definitive. Is there a FAQ on the CM site someone is aware of or other regs I can read. The clerk here has been more than cordial so I am happy with their service, there is really only so much they can do when given direction. If I grieve their denial of expense I would like to have a full understanding of the policy so I don't waste anyone's time.


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## garb811 (14 Aug 2018)

hattrick72 said:
			
		

> Got it. SME here says only connection charges are covered. Connection charges are covered on a move so I am not sure how that is an additional expense. I did not talk to the clerk in Halifax my mistake for sure. I guess I am looking for consistency, what are other bases doing? Hoping someone on IR at another base can chime in on what actual expenses are being covered.
> 
> The SME here also said that if I was on the economy the base would cover basic cable costs. It is word for word the same under the heading Private Accommodation and Public Accommodation for separation expense entitlements for additional costs.
> 
> My other question is who is the overall SME in Ottawa. I have looked through MILPERS Instruction on IR and CBI but I don't see anything definitive. Is there a FAQ on the CM site someone is aware of or other regs I can read. The clerk here has been more than cordial so I am happy with their service, there is really only so much they can do when given direction. If I grieve their denial of expense I would like to have a full understanding of the policy so I don't waste anyone's time.


It's a national policy, all bases should be reimbursing the exact same thing for the exact same situation as contrary to what you seem to think, it is very clearly defined in CBI CBI 208.997 – Separation Expense.



> 208.997(7) (Amount – Quarters) If quarters are available at public expense, the amount of SE is limited to:
> 
> quarters at public expense;
> actual and reasonable monthly parking expenses, not exceeding the amount of the monthly charge referred to in paragraph (4) of article 208.50 (Deductions for the Provision of Single Quarters and Covered Residential Parking) of the QR&O;
> ...


  

Granted, there are some differences in what is permitted.  For example, some bases have surplus single quarters and require all pers on IR to live in shacks while other bases lack single quarters so the policy is that everyone on IR has to live out but as for what expenses are covered via SE, none of that differs.


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## hattrick72 (17 Aug 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> It's a national policy, all bases should be reimbursing the exact same thing for the exact same situation as contrary to what you seem to think, it is very clearly defined in CBI CBI 208.997 – Separation Expense.
> 
> 
> Granted, there are some differences in what is permitted.  For example, some bases have surplus single quarters and require all pers on IR to live in shacks while other bases lack single quarters so the policy is that everyone on IR has to live out but as for what expenses are covered via SE, none of that differs.



 actual and reasonable basic internet, basic cable and cellular or land-line telephone connection expenses.

What does that mean, it doesn't seem clear to me. Does that mean seperation expense 
1. only covers the connection expenses for cable, internet, cell or land line; or
2. Covers monthly cable and internet. Connection expense for cell or land line?

Also at the top of the CBI it says the minister may approve actual and reasonable costs that are not included in the instruction. How do I get an expense added, is it through orderly room to minister or through CM to minister?


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## garb811 (17 Aug 2018)

hattrick72 said:
			
		

> actual and reasonable basic internet, basic cable and cellular or land-line telephone connection expenses.
> 
> What does that mean, it doesn't seem clear to me. Does that mean seperation expense
> 1. only covers the connection expenses for cable, internet, cell or land line; or
> ...


It says your first interpretation. 

Basic cable connection
Basic internet connect 
Cell phone OR land line connection, but not both. 

Ref the Minister’s discretion, you have to read the entirety of that paragraph, not just pick the part you like. The key is:



> ...and that are not specifically provided for in this section, but only if such reimbursement would be equitable and consistent with the purpose of this section.



Items that will be covered as a separation expense are specifically listed in the applicable section.


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## hattrick72 (17 Aug 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> It says your first interpretation.
> 
> Basic cable connection
> Basic internet connect
> ...



Was just paraphrasing not picking the part I like. BGRS says the following:

Benefits for  unaccompanied  moves are generally  the same as those contained in Parts  1  and 2, except  for  these  entitlements, which have  limitations  or enhancements: •  Returning from  Operations  –  Posted to a  location  other  than  the (D)HG&E  location; •  Returning  to  previous  place  of  duty for  release  purposes; •  TNL; •  Shipment  of  vehicle;  and • HHT. Continued  on  next  page 110 

Sundry expenses are not mentioned which include connection fees. So if the connection fees are covered by BGRS on IR, I don't see how cable and internet connection is an added expense that needs to be covered by 208.997. which is what lead/leads me to believe it leans more towards the monthly fee and not doubling expenses. The only argument I can come up with against myself is I'm treating internet and cable as a personal entitlement not a luxury I can choose to have or not. But the personal entitlement comes down to keeping the same standard of living prior to being seperating for military reasons. 

Your opinion on where I may be going wrong is much appreciated. Just added the party I was paraphrasing and why I would ask for who to put into minister for approval.

208.801(2) (Ministerial approval of relocation expenses) The Minister may approve reimbursement of all or part of the expenses reasonably incurred by an officer or noncommissioned member or their dependants that are directly related to, or that arise directly out of, the member's relocation and that are not specifically provided for in this section, but only if such reimbursement would be equitable and consistent with the purpose of this section.

After hour child care for child when spouse works rotating evening, night, weekend shifts that are day night and evening. Not a military spouse. Would this be claimable up to the daily maximum and match the definition I paraphrased from 208.801(2)? Cost will be $12 an hour which would be much higher than a $30 a day allotment "paraphrasing amount from memory it may be less"


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Mar 2019)

Does anyone have any insight into residing at a non-commercial residence while on IR such as a friends house where they will rent out a room to you?  I’m curious as to if it’s possible and what the differences are financially to that of a commercial property.  Thank you.


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## Halifax Tar (2 Mar 2019)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any insight into residing at a non-commercial residence while on IR such as a friends house where they will rent out a room to you?  I’m curious as to if it’s possible and what the differences are financially to that of a commercial property.  Thank you.



I believe that there are maximum standards that the IR program will pay for, example 1 bedroom, +study ect ect ect.  But I don't know if there is a minimum, as in just renting a room.  I will be watching this.  Good question SDAT.


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## garb811 (2 Mar 2019)

I remember seeing flyers on one base where they were advertising a single bedroom in a house as being, "perfect for someone on IR." 

Best bet is to simply call the IR clerks at the location you are wondering about and they will let you know. You can't live out at all bases; if there is R&Q available, you can be ordered to live in yet other bases will not make R&Q avail for members on IR.


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## rbw902 (2 Mar 2019)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any insight into residing at a non-commercial residence while on IR such as a friends house where they will rent out a room to you?  I’m curious as to if it’s possible and what the differences are financially to that of a commercial property.  Thank you.



Check out CBI 208.997. What you are describing would fall under the definition of private accommodation rather than non-commercial accommodation. Reimbursement is limited to "the monthly charge under paragraph (1) of article 208.50 (Deductions for the Provision of Single Quarters and Covered Residential Parking) of the QR&O for a single quarter Type H1, rated very good", which is not the same as the city-based rent limit.


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Mar 2019)

Thank you


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jul 2019)

How does one get approved for IR for 7 years....I know a guy who was asking for his 2nd year and told it wasn't going to happen.


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## Navy_Pete (10 Jul 2019)

Probably easier when your supervisor that supports it is the CDS, and you already have 30+ years in, on top of being a flag officer?

Two years of IR costs are probably equivalent to the average cost move one way (or more, depending on the value of the house being sold).  Said he's heading back to Edmonton were his wife is, so even at 7 years, probably still comparable to two cost moves for a leafer.  Still seems pretty excessive, but guessing it might be a case of 'this year is the last year' that kept getting extended? :dunno:

I know people complain about some things like this being perks that flag officers and senior NCOs have more access to, but on the flip side, they generally have far more responsibility, and are way underpaid if you compare it to an equivalent position in a 75k person private company, so don't think it's really that unfair. Most of the people at those ranks basically gave up most of their lives and are massive workaholics, and not a good example of how to achieve a work/life balance. Much easier to do when you are lower down the food chain.

(caveat, general comment, not in any way suggesting EITS's winger shouldn't get a second year, I only got a second year myself because I was deployed with my stuff sitting in a storage locker and jumped on a plane after turnover was done once we got back, so there was no real cost. It's pretty case by case.)


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## Halifax Tar (10 Jul 2019)

I spent 4 years on IR from Halifax to Kingston (CFJSR/Base/RMC).  That was tough.  Missed the first 2 years of my daughters life.  I cant imagine 7.  Hats off to you General.  I truly hope he enjoys his very well earned retirement. 

Mine only ended because succession planning and a new CM decided, thankfully, I needed to sail again so I can continue on to CPO ranks.


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## ballz (10 Jul 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> How does one get approved for IR for 7 years....I know a guy who was asking for his 2nd year and told it wasn't going to happen.



The CDS approved the extra 2 years.... at the 5-year mark, it would have been absolutely silly to pay for a cost move there only to have to do another cost move back to Edmonton 1-3 years later when he retired.... far cheaper to keep him on IR. Even if it was considered when he first got posted to Ottawa, it would probably be cheaper to keep him on IR for 7 years, although I doubt it was thought of at that time.


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## Kat Stevens (10 Jul 2019)

IR was probably cheaper than a 7 KM move, let alone a cross country one.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jul 2019)

So, obviously then, every CAF member can expect to receive IR and IR allowances for 7 years;  that's awesome!

And, who can argue against 7 years of IR allowances, the precedent has been set.  Right?


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## garb811 (10 Jul 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> How does one get approved for IR for 7 years....I know a guy who was asking for his 2nd year and told it wasn't going to happen.


Not to further derail this down an IR siding but...why? Unless the circumstances for the initial IR approval materially changed (ie. the member had asked for IR because their kid was entering Grade 12 and they had successfully graduated) what were the supposed grounds to deny the extension? That's certainly redressable and winnable, IMHO. Let's be honest, the current policy about what is IR worthy is broad enough that it's basically a rubber stamp, at least in my experiences.


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## Sub_Guy (10 Jul 2019)

If someone wants to live on IR for seven years then power to them.   IR sucks.  It is not a cash cow, people aren’t making money sitting around on IR. 

I don’t see an issue with this at all, would it have been cheaper to move his family from Edmonton to Ottawa then back to Edmonton?  Probably not.

I think if the CAF is going retain folks they need to drop this suck it up princess and get moving attitude.

I wish nothing but the best for the General in his upcoming retirement.


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## Navy_Pete (10 Jul 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> So, obviously then, every CAF member can expect to receive IR and IR allowances for 7 years;  that's awesome!
> 
> And, who can argue against 7 years of IR allowances, the precedent has been set.  Right?



IR isn't a cash cow; all they cover is rent (up to a maximum rate) and $100 for parking.  The rate is normally on the lower end for furnished apartments in the city, so you will likely end up in a crappy bachelor apartment.

They don't pay any kind of TD allowances, SE or anything else, and I don't remember any travel back home being paid (except maybe an LTA prior to the deployment? It's pretty fuzzy).  All you get from Brookfield is the flight there, and whatever meals you would normally get while in transit.

Obviously more to be buying groceries for 1, and if you want to see your family, that's out of your own pocket.

I put my sea pay aside, but figure the year cost me at least an extra $1k-$1500 out of pocket, and that was with cheap flights between Halifax and Ottawa.  Would have been significantly more if I was further out, or I just wouldn't have gone back more than once every six months.

I know it used to be jammy and like a paid divorce back in the day, but now it's a crappy go.  Sometimes it just makes sense, but don't recommend it to anyone if they can avoid it.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Jul 2019)

Is there an IR thread this can be moved to?

It isn't the IR $ I am concerned about...more the issue of IR approved for some for extended timeframes, and folks I know with equally legitimate requests being denied.  In one case I'm aware of, the end state was the mbr felt that release may be the only feasible option.  It was, as I mentioned, a request for a 2nd year of IR (knowing the details, I deem it a substantiated request).  From a fiscally responsible perspective, there has been the argument presented that a cost move is possibly/likely more expensive than multiple years of IR.  Additionally, I consider the cost to replace and train aircrew.


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## Throwaway987 (10 Jul 2019)

What if the cost/value of the executive was more than a maintainer? The rules of IR were distorted in this case because the bureaucratic rules regarding compensation weren’t sufficiently flexible to retain high level talent without mucking with IR duration.

“All CAF members are equal, but some CAF members are more equal than others”  :highjack:


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## The Bread Guy (10 Jul 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Is there an IR thread this can be moved to?


Stand by ...


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## FSTO (10 Jul 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> IR isn't a cash cow; all they cover is rent (up to a maximum rate) and $100 for parking.  The rate is normally on the lower end for furnished apartments in the city, so you will likely end up in a crappy bachelor apartment.
> 
> They don't pay any kind of TD allowances, SE or anything else, and I don't remember any travel back home being paid (except maybe an LTA prior to the deployment? It's pretty fuzzy).  All you get from Brookfield is the flight there, and whatever meals you would normally get while in transit.
> 
> ...



IR sucks and you lose money. End of story.


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## Old EO Tech (11 Jul 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> IR sucks and you lose money. End of story.



I certainly agree, I understand the TB policy on Food costs, but I don't know why they won't cover the entire cost of cable/internet, it's not like being away from home is decreasing my home cable/internet one bit, nor can you claim being connected in a luxury in 2019...

Jon


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## PMedMoe (11 Jul 2019)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> I certainly agree, I understand the TB policy on Food costs, but I don't know why they won't cover the entire cost of cable/internet, it's not like being away from home is decreasing my home cable/internet one bit, nor can you claim being connected in a luxury in 2019...
> 
> Jon



Probably why a lot of people take hotel suites because internet and cable are included.  When I was posted to Toronto, I almost went that route.  The price also included a light supper Sun-Thurs and breakfast (probably continental) Mon-Fri.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Jul 2019)

Can't you also get an "all inclusive" apartment with wifi, cable/sat, etc?


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## PMedMoe (11 Jul 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Can't you also get an "all inclusive" apartment with wifi, cable/sat, etc?



Probably.  My place in Ottawa had basic cable, internet and phone (no long distance).


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## Old EO Tech (11 Jul 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Can't you also get an "all inclusive" apartment with wifi, cable/sat, etc?



Possible but it's hit and miss.  I am coming IR to the NCR in August, downtown options are very limited, I put myself on a waiting list at the Cartier Inns and suites for the very reason that it would have cable and wifi, but there is a 30 person waiting list...   Fortunately the apartment I eventually found in Gatineau has cable included but not internet.

Another issue is the rate for the NCR is $1600 per month and that was set in 2008 and never been increased and it's no were near market rates on the Ottawa side, so most property management companies ignore your emails/phone calls as soon as they see you are military...   And the ones that will except IR people are booked full.

Cheers Jon


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## Ostrozac (11 Jul 2019)

IR as it stand right now is... odd. As written, it seems to imply that personnel should preferably be living in Single Quarters, but it is heavily (maybe mostly) used in Ottawa, which hasn’t had Single Quarters in decades. It is partially used as the basis for our Service Couple policy, even though Service Couples are separated by Career Management, not by choice. And our policy of requiring written justification and year-to-year renewal and the resulting uncertainty seems unnecessarily petty given the cost savings resulting from anything that reduces the number of cost moves.

The UK uses their equivalent of IR heavily, but England is the size of the Maritimes — British pers often live in quarters/the mess Monday to Friday and are home on weekends — do we want something like that? If so, we need regional career management/home porting. Or, given the size of our country do we need to post people nationally? if so, maybe one LTA a year is unnecessarily stingy — should we have one LTA every 60 days? Or a system of sustainment flights to get people home to their families on leave?

The “Journey” plan seems to imply that personnel will have greater control over their careers in the future — if so, then we need to think about if our IR policy is fit for purpose. I don’t think it is right now,


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## Navy_Pete (12 Jul 2019)

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> Possible but it's hit and miss.  I am coming IR to the NCR in August, downtown options are very limited, I put myself on a waiting list at the Cartier Inns and suites for the very reason that it would have cable and wifi, but there is a 30 person waiting list...   Fortunately the apartment I eventually found in Gatineau has cable included but not internet.
> 
> Another issue is the rate for the NCR is $1600 per month and that was set in 2008 and never been increased and it's no were near market rates on the Ottawa side, so most property management companies ignore your emails/phone calls as soon as they see you are military...   And the ones that will except IR people are booked full.
> 
> Cheers Jon



Had a similar experience in Halifax a few years ago; the rate was $1440/month, but most places were +$2k plus.  One of the property management companies told me the IR equivalent for RCMP and other agencies had a much higher allowed rate ($2400) but was never able/could be bothered to confirm.

Found a place near the base that catered specifically to military, that included utilities and internet (but no cable tv) with four of us in the six (seven?) units, but was luck of the draw. Never saw anything in our range that had all that included.

Think when I looked at the shacks I would have had to rent furniture, or stay in the weirdroom with a meal plan.  Both options exceeded the monthly allowance, so was kind of weird to have to live on the economy from that perspective, but was actually a relief as I needed a break from a military environment, and my place had a BBQ (cooking for myself and trying out new recipes from scratch was a super good stress relief).

Figured that year on IR saved the GoC about $70k in moving costs, so was pretty frustrating to be nickle and dimed. There were a lot of small miscellaneous expenses, so the $17/day SE benefit they cut would have covered all of that (after tax).

Personally think the IR policy needs updated, but if our general approach to things like career management and flexibility of job location should be examined.  If you are moving from a cubicle in one town doing desk work to a cubicle in another town doing desk work, maybe we should consider some options to see if remote working makes sense.


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## CountDC (12 Jul 2019)

agree that maybe remote working should be considered.  Also in larger areas is it really necessary to move someone to another city if they don't want to go.  For example Halifax has lots of different holes that can be filled on a rotational basis rather than moving someone across the country to fill a hole there.

For some perspective.  The CFM listed moves:

STANDARD COST APPLICATIONS
Table 1-4 provides an estimate for military personnel cost moves during the 2018-2019 Active
Posting Season (APS). Posting allowance and administrative charges under the CAF Integrated
Relocation Program are included in the average cost move.

Table 1-4: Average Estimated Cost Move for APS 2018-2019
Type of Move                                      D Mil C
Inside Canada (Note 1)                       $39,197
Basic Training List (BTL)                     $13,158
Outside Canada: INCAN to US             $51,987
Outside Canada: INCAN to Overseas    $80,806
Outside Canada: US to INCAN             $47,206
Outside Canada: Overseas to INCAN    $70,456
Outside Canada: OUTCAN to OUTCAN  $54,215
IPR Moves (Releases)                         $26,556
Return from IR                                  $7,086

Note 1: For Senior Appointments use the rate of $47,802 for Inside Canada moves.

So does having the mbr on IR save money? 

I know of one IR that was turned down due to no valid reason.  Spouse was a stay at home, children were in regular school with no graduations pending for a few years.  Mbr was just enjoying having his cake and eat it too (making lots of money while enjoying the single life for years away from the family).


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## Navy_Pete (12 Jul 2019)

Those return from IR costs are insane; my claim was about $400, and anything you can't take on the plane goes through CMTT, so can't see that costing $5-6k.

There is a random weight limitation for what you are allowed to take, so you can get away with a few boxes and a bike no problem, but not like you are taking furniture.


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## dapaterson (12 Jul 2019)

Suspect the amount is inclusive of Posting Allowance.


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## CountDC (12 Jul 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Suspect the amount is inclusive of Posting Allowance.



It is - see the paragraph at the beginning.


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## hattrick72 (26 Aug 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Those return from IR costs are insane; my claim was about $400, and anything you can't take on the plane goes through CMTT, so can't see that costing $5-6k.
> 
> There is a random weight limitation for what you are allowed to take, so you can get away with a few boxes and a bike no problem, but not like you are taking furniture.



Don't forget Km, some people go IR outside of province.


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## armyvern (7 Sep 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Those return from IR costs are insane; my claim was about $400, and anything you can't take on the plane goes through CMTT, so can't see that costing $5-6k.
> 
> There is a random weight limitation for what you are allowed to take, so you can get away with a few boxes and a bike no problem, but not like you are taking furniture.



Nah, not really.  A tonne of IR couples have 7 or more travel days between them.  Hotels, meals, etc etc etc.


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## Adam (23 Apr 2020)

Good day all,  

I'm hoping someone can answer a questions regarding IR.  I'm posted to Halifax this APS and as of yet my CM has no plan to cancel my posting.  My concern is that this APS is almost completely cancelled. Its hard to sell a house in Oromocto west (Gagetown) at the best of times let alone a year with no house hunters, a global pandemic/recession, and a state of emergency. 

 The CM has suggested that I could select IR, which I'm hoping is a last resort ( I've spent nearly 18 month away from my family in the last 5 years).

 If I select IR, can I still list my house and be entitled to all the BGRS benefits if I sell my house while on IR? 

BGRS/treasury Board has cut the dual residency benefit to the point of being useless.  I would likely loose 20,000 immediately because I'm forced to list my house at the BGRS appraised price. The from what I recall the will cover  a dual residence for 6 months and then your on your own.

I'm not evading a posting by any means. This will my 7th move.  But I don't want to end up bankrupt, divorced and a stranger to my young children.


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## garb811 (23 Apr 2020)

Adam said:
			
		

> Good day all,
> 
> I'm hoping someone can answer a questions regarding IR.  I'm posted to Halifax this APS and as of yet my CM has no plan to cancel my posting.  My concern is that this APS is almost completely cancelled. Its hard to sell a house in Oromocto west (Gagetown) at the best of times let alone a year with no house hunters, a global pandemic/recession, and a state of emergency.
> 
> ...


Yes, you can list your house and sell it while on IR and retain the benefits.


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