# Birth of a Giant, the designing and building of the Argus ASW aircraft



## Colin Parkinson (2 Jun 2020)

I remember the sound of the Argus's when they flew overhead, miss it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=424oXB6-44Y


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## FJAG (2 Jun 2020)

725 days from mahogany model to test flight.

You can't get a pistol through procurement that fast anymore.

 ;D


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Jun 2020)

Yes it's quite telling isn't it. Notice their procurement process for the window frames? I bet that was simplified for the camera, but it still was far easier than any contract today.


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## FJAG (2 Jun 2020)

Really good film. I like stuff about how things are built. I particularly liked the mock-up of the assembly plant floor layout.

 :cheers:


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## lenaitch (2 Jun 2020)

Back  in the largely analogue days when we had three military airframes being built with an eye to Canadian content.


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Jun 2020)

In one of the shots there is what like the mockup of the Tutor as well


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## OldSolduer (2 Jun 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> 725 days from mahogany model to test flight.
> 
> You can't get a pistol through procurement that fast anymore.
> 
> ;D



Pistol? More like 725 years to get a new pistol. 

Under two years to design and fly - amazing.


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## dimsum (2 Jun 2020)

Unpopular opinion, but I never thought the Argus was a particularly good-looking aircraft.  However, the bombardier bubble up front would have had amazing views during takeoff/landing and while low level.

Also, 24+ hour flights (26.5 from Wiki with load, tested to 31 hours).  Ew.

The RCAF summer khaki uniform was pretty nice though  :nod:


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## Weinie (2 Jun 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I remember the sound of the Argus's when they flew overhead, miss it!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=424oXB6-44Y



I grew up in Amherst, Nova Scotia, on the Isthmus of Chignecto; the strip of land that connects Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. Argus used to fly over our back yard all the time as they transited from the Bay of Fundy to the Northumberland Strait, and they were often very low. As a 8 or 9 year old, I and a bunch of local kids used to gather and wave at them, and often the crew rocked their wings in response. You could hear them coming forever, which was the signal for the kids to gather.


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## Eye In The Sky (2 Jun 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Unpopular opinion, but I never thought the Argus was a particularly good-looking aircraft.  However, the bombardier bubble up front would have had amazing views during takeoff/landing and while low level.



My dad, a retired Argus FE, has some stories about people staying the bubble on a dare for landings, and the...'screaming' that happened sometimes.   ;D   I remember crawling into it when I was a kid.  Pretty neat.



> Also, 24+ hour flights (26.5 from Wiki with load, tested to 31 hours).  Ew.



They also had more crew comforts than we're used to on the '140.  They could take off, level off and "put a turkey in" for the transit.  4 bunks for the crew, too, IIRC.

I did one of my presentations when I was going thru Wpg on the Argus;  they could take off from the east coast of Canada, transit to off the coast of Ireland, patrol for 8 hours and then RTB back to the east coast.  

Dad also has some stories about having to fly 'thru' weather because they couldn't fly over it (unpressurized).  He was one of the lucky "iron gut" types who didn't get sick flying, ever.  I've thanked him more than once, silently, for passing that gift on to me.  Dad retired with 13,000 hours logged with over 10,000 of them on the Argus, most of that with VP415 when it was on the Island.

1st pic attached is from the front of the radome of Argus 739, in her resting place at the Air Force Heritage Park in Summerside, PEI.

2nd pic attached is one of my favorites;  Dad's crew in Kinloss in Sept '68.  Forge caps in flight suits, wets on the ramp after a successful 'something'.  It really gives you an idea of the size of the airplane.

I grew up around the Argus, and I've got some great memories of crawling around it, and of the people my Dad served with on it.


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## ArmyRick (3 Jun 2020)

Interesting. Following


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## Oldgateboatdriver (3 Jun 2020)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Pistol? More like 725 years to get a new pistol.



Correct: 275 years to get the new pistol ... 15 seconds for the RCMP to make it illegal to own.  ;D


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## Loachman (3 Jun 2020)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My dad, a retired Argus FE, has some stories about people staying the bubble on a dare for landings, and the...'screaming' that happened sometimes.



I cannot imagine why.

I cadged three Argus flights while on OJT in Summerside prior to PFT - one four-hour Pilot Trainer and two eight-hour Crew Trainers. I politely declined offers to go on full-blown patrols, as even the Pilot Trainer was incredibly boring.

Two things made it worthwhile, though - unlimited quantities of pretty good food in the galley, and time in the nose bubble. That was almost like sitting in space.

Nobody was allowed there during take-offs and landings because of a fatal accident some years previously, despite certain of us begging.

Certainly an interesting and respectable machine.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2020)

Loachman said:
			
		

> I cadged three Argus flights while on OJT in Summerside prior to PFT - one four-hour Pilot Trainer and two eight-hour Crew Trainers. I politely declined offers to go on full-blown patrols, as even the Pilot Trainer was incredibly boring.



What year was that?

I actually liked PPFs, LRPFs (outside the local area) were even better (my favorite one was an overnighter to Key West).  



> Nobody was allowed there during take-offs and landings because of a fatal accident some years previously, despite certain of us begging.



Birdstrike?


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## Haggis (3 Jun 2020)

There is a record of a crash on landing in Summerside in 1977 with three fatalities.  The aircraft reportedly departed the runway and hit a Lockeed Electra which was parked.  The only other crash record I could find was a total loss off Puerto Rico in 1965 during a training mission.  In that incident, the aircraft reportedly clipped a large swell during a low level turn and crashed.

I saw my first Argus when I was a young Air Cadet in the early 1970's.  It was an imposing and impressive aircraft.  You never forget that sound.


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## exspy (3 Jun 2020)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 2nd pic attached is one of my favorites; Dad's crew in Kinloss in Sept '68. Forge caps in flight suits, wets on the ramp after a successful 'something'. It really gives you an idea of the size of the airplane.



Great photograph of the real RCAF back in the day. Air Force blue rather than CF green. 

Do you have any more?

Cheers,
Dan.


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## dimsum (3 Jun 2020)

Dan M said:
			
		

> Great photograph of the real RCAF back in the day. Air Force blue rather than CF green.



We're back to the RCAF now, and green flight suits make more sense operationally.  

But that's really neither here nor there.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2020)

Dan M said:
			
		

> Great photograph of the real RCAF back in the day.



I wonder if AirCom really considered the "chicken in a basket" types (MAG) as part of the "air force"... 8)


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Jun 2020)

Dan M said:
			
		

> Great photograph of the real RCAF back in the day. Air Force blue rather than CF green.
> 
> Do you have any more?
> 
> ...



The best collection of Argus photos, etc I've seen yet.

Remember the Canadair CP-107 Argus


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Jun 2020)

As previously posted, the nose bubble was not to be occupied during take-offs and landings supposedly due to a previous fatal accident.  However, there may have been another reason for the requirement.

https://documents.techno-science.ca/documents/CASM-Aircrafthistories-CanadairCL-28Argus.pdf


> Crew Stations. Flight operating crew members, employed in their primary role, occupied the following
> positions: pilot, co-pilot%u2019s seats, flight engineer%u2019s station, routine navigator%u2019s station, radio operator%u2019s
> station. The tactical crew, was located primarily in the tactical and detection compartment, but there was a
> nose lookout station, sometimes occupied by a bomb-aimer, observer, or whomever was free at the time
> ...


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Jun 2020)

Memories of an Argus Patrol from the 415 Sqn Association website.  It's fairly long so I'll just leave the link.


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## cf100mk5 (15 Oct 2020)

Interesting podcast on ASW with the Argus.

https://coldwarconversations.com/episode54/


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## Old Sweat (16 Oct 2020)

Two words sum up the Argus ethos: DEAD ANT!


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## Eye In The Sky (16 Oct 2020)

The meaning is lost of me...can you explain?


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## Old Sweat (17 Oct 2020)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The meaning is lost of me...can you explain?



They would, while in a group in a mess, all drop flat on their backs with their arms and legs pointing up, when one of them would suddenly shout "Dead Ant". And yes, alcohol was a factor.


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## Eye In The Sky (17 Oct 2020)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> They would, while in a group in a mess, all drop flat on their backs with their arms and legs pointing up, when one of them would suddenly shout "Dead Ant". And yes, alcohol was a factor.



So it is what I thought; the only time I'd seen (and done that) myself was going thru Cornwallis.  One of our MCpl's loved to do it to us when we were on our hourly 10-min smoke breaks in the Hollow Square.  We had 10 min's to march out from the back, smoke 'in a military fashion', put the butts out/away, and march back inside.  Dead Ant killed your chances of getting that dart downrange.

Dead Ant didn't continue from the VP, to the MP, and now the LRP Sqns/days.  Like many traditions...it just fell off somewhere.


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## Sailorwest (12 Nov 2020)

Cool video of the aircraft development. My dad flew the Argus from July 57 until Aug 60 with 405 sqn in Greenwood. His crew did a 26 hr patrol in 1960, a record at that point as i recall being told (well before my time)


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## Good2Golf (12 Nov 2020)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> They would, while in a group in a mess, all drop flat on their backs with their arms and legs pointing up, when one of them would suddenly shout "Dead Ant". And yes, alcohol was a factor.



OS, not sure that was big in light blue messes.

Definitely mixed green-blue though... :nod:


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## armrdsoul77 (17 Dec 2021)

Documentary on Rcaf Neptune P2V7 (predecessor to the Argus) mission from NFB in 1958.
Neptune Mission


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Dec 2021)

Great find, thank you,\. Actually a modern Neptune sized aircraft would make a nice addition to ASW aircraft.


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## Eye In The Sky (17 Dec 2021)

No...no no no.  LOL

Don't say that, we'll end up with a baby MPA like the Turkish Navy has (CASA 235s)...


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## dimsum (17 Dec 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Actually a modern Neptune sized aircraft would make a nice addition to ASW aircraft.


Why do you say that?


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## armrdsoul77 (24 Aug 2022)

Picked up a copy of the book The Canadair Argus: The Untold story of Canada's Cold War Maritime Hunter from the Greenwood NS aviation museum. Really enjoyed it. Lots of info,photos,and illustrations. The Argus had the range and loiter time to cover gaps in the ship/sub defensive line during the cuban missle crisis(deployed unbeknownst to Diefenbaker government). The museum also has the Argus tactical crew procedures trainer and a rotating cutaway of an Argus engine. Visit if you have the opportunity. 
The Canadair Argus: The Untold Story of Canada's Cold War Maritime Hunter: BAKER, Major (Retired) Cary; CAMPBELL, Major (Retired) Bert: 9781927003060: Books - Amazon.ca


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## Weinie (24 Aug 2022)

armrdsoul77 said:


> Picked up a copy of the book The Canadair Argus: The Untold story of Canada's Cold War Maritime Hunter from the Greenwood NS aviation museum. Really enjoyed it. Lots of info,photos,and illustrations. The Argus had the range and loiter time to cover gaps in the ship/sub defensive line during the cuban missle crisis(deployed unbeknownst to Diefenbaker government). The museum also has the Argus tactical crew procedures trainer and a rotating cutaway of an Argus engine. Visit if you have the opportunity.
> The Canadair Argus: The Untold Story of Canada's Cold War Maritime Hunter: BAKER, Major (Retired) Cary; CAMPBELL, Major (Retired) Bert: 9781927003060: Books - Amazon.ca
> 
> View attachment 72724


I remember when I was about 10 years old the Argus would transit across the Isthmus of Chignecto from the Fundy side to the Northumberland Strait side of Nova Scotia. They flew quite low, and we always waved at them. Occasionally, they waved back.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Aug 2022)

717 needs some TLC on the outside but it’s still something to stand next to and under one of these aircraft.

I think there’s a flight deck mock-up in the museum too?


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## Good2Golf (24 Aug 2022)

You know you’re a long range patrol aircraft when your endurance is limited by the amount oil your engines burn, not fuel…


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## armrdsoul77 (25 Aug 2022)

Was struck by the technical skill it would have required to work on a radial piston engine. Lots of moving parts. Also how it bacame more difficult to get the 115 octane fuel so they had to use "soft coal" 100 octane.


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## armrdsoul77 (27 Aug 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> think there’s a flight deck mock-up in the museum too?


They have an Argus flight deck trainer at the Atlantic Can Av museum near Halifax airport.


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Aug 2022)

armrdsoul77 said:


> They have an Argus flight deck trainer at the Atlantic Can Av museum near Halifax airport.View attachment 72790


 I didn’t know that.  Nice.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Aug 2022)

Is that an observer seat in the nose ?


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Is that an observer seat in the nose ?


 
Yup, it was commonly referred to as “the bubble”.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Aug 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Yup, it was commonly referred to as “the bubble”.



I bet that's a cool ride!


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I bet that's a cool ride!



I sat in the seat as a kid and thought it was the coolest thing ever.  Not flying though, back then you had to be 16 I think to fly on Family Day.


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## Weinie (29 Aug 2022)

Eye In The Sky said:


> I sat in the seat as a kid and thought it was the coolest thing ever.  Not flying though, back then you had to be 16 I think to fly on Family Day.


I heard it could be cold though.


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Aug 2022)

I never thought of that.  Wonder how it was heated and cooled…have to give Dad a call in the next day or two and ask.


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## YZT580 (29 Aug 2022)

Weinie said:


> I heard it could be cold though.


According to an ex-colleague who rode there, it could be absolutely terrifying.  Easy to simulate though.  Find yourself an old Hu69, strap yourself in and then go out over the Atlantic and drop down to where you are just around the spray line at full speed.  Now add in head winds and 30 ft. waves along with the associated turbulence.  Of course the outside temp. is right around the freezing mark so that bubble is constantly icing up and flaking off.  Makes a hell of a noise.  And your ride lasts for hours.  As the motto says: "There's no life like it!"


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## Blackadder1916 (29 Aug 2022)

While an exhilarating ride in the bubble, occasionally picked things up along the way.



			https://documents.techno-science.ca/documents/CASM-Aircrafthistories-CanadairCL-28Argus.pdf
		

*Bird Strikes*
Because the Argus operated at low altitudes and in the avian-rich maritime environment, it was susceptible to bird-strike events. Gulls striking the large aircraft in its vulnerable nose and wing leading edge areas could cause a good amount of damage to the aircraft, let alone the crew members who might be in the exposed observation area of the nose. Two such incidences are described here.

*Bird Strike on Take-off.  *On 4 September 1960, Argus 20722 of No. 405 Squadron piloted by W/C C.N. Torontow and co-pilot, F/L D.R. Watson suffered multiple bird strikes during a night take-off from RAF Kinloss in Northern Scotland. The fully glazed, Perspex nose of the aircraft was shattered and the nose compartment was full of dead seagulls, blood, guts and feathers. Additionally, the windscreen was damaged and there were numerous dents in the leading edge of the wings. The pilots and flight engineer managed to get the aircraft airborne long enough to complete one circuit of the airfield before landing safely.

*Bird Strike and Personal Injury.*   On 14 December 1962, Argus 20735 of No. 415 Squadron, piloted by F/L A.F. Farris, was conducting an exercise with a RCN submarine. Flying Officer B.R. Johnson, a radio officer, was in the nose compartment when a seagull penetrated the Perspex and struck Johnson on the left foot, splintering the bone in his left toe. The nose compartment was filled with gale-force frigid air along with the remains of the deceased seagull. The compartment had to be evacuated and sealed off, whereupon the aircraft returned to base as the radio officer required medical attention for his injuries.


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## Colin Parkinson (29 Aug 2022)

Always knew those Sh*thawks were secret communists moles, working hard to take out our ASW assets.


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