# The New C9a2



## Yeoman (27 Nov 2004)

has anybody seen or used on these new toys yet? I'm just wondering mainly if that new collasable/folding (did that keep that idea?) buttstock do that much good? was about that handgrip thing I've seen in some pics? did DND keep that idea? to me it doesn't even look that all sturdy, and could snap off the first time you do a face plant out of a lav (oh don't lie, everyone has done it at least once)
the c7a2 isn't too bad, but I would have still even seen more stuff done to it.
personally I thought if we were going to get something like that; we have gotten the m249 para model since the brits, the yanks, and a couple other larger countries use them; why not us? but alas we all know why that wasn't picked up (government, and not canadian made)
Greg


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## Da_man (27 Nov 2004)

theres a pic http://www.combatcamera.dnd.ca/photoarchive/HiRes/%212004/111204/IS2004-1230a.JPG  No OD handguards or anything.


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## Northern Touch (28 Nov 2004)

Anybody know how the Mag Light is attached on the left side of the gun.
It looks like it's pretty close to the gas regulator, anyone know if it gets in the way at all?


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## 1feral1 (28 Nov 2004)

The only thing I noticed was the gas is set to 'adverse'.

Here is a close up of a Malaysian issed para Minimi. Notice the 'tooth' designed to keep the feed cover upright, so it does not fall back and bite your fingers.

Also notice the knurled takedown pin on the LH side of the wpn.


Cheers,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (28 Nov 2004)

France's FN Para Minimi. This wpn's twist is 1/12 for the USA M193 55gr 5.56mm ball rd. The French also use this ammo in their FAMAS G2's, which now take the M16 FOW 30rd Mag. Their mags are steel with plastic followers, but not as robust as the UK's HK designed mag.

As for their ammo, its steel cased, and was dated 1987, plus it was on 10rd strippers, which were for the original FAMAS F1 25rd mags, and not interchangeable with the M16 mags, so they had to unclip all ammo and load it loose.

Also on the French Minimi that old 'indicator' with the red paint is used for when the belt gets low. This was deleted from the C9 and the F89A1, plus other countries no longer use this either.

Also notice the sight rail mount for night vision eqpt, etc, and how its mounted 'on the side'.


Cheers,

Wes


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## Fusaki (28 Nov 2004)

> Notice the 'tooth' designed to keep the feed cover upright, so it does not fall back and bite your fingers.



I'm not sure whats so notable about that... Our C9A1s have them and the "tooth" only engages when there is no barrel, like when you've stripped the weapon for cleaning. The feed cover opens and closes normally if the barrel is on, so if you're not carefull you're still going to crunch your fingers when you clear your stoppages. Am I missing something? Is this "tooth" an uncommon feature among Minimi style LMGs?

As well, can anyone comment on what they think is a better system: the C9A2 butt or the Para style butt?


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## JBP (28 Nov 2004)

Ekkks! Certainly wouldn't want to be on the "recieving" end of that beast! Nor any assault rifle or machine gun... That thing damn looks scary! Still remember the first time I say our .50 Cal machine gun, C-9? With the wooden buttocks and all, almost crapped my pants! 

You folks remember "The Predator" with Arnold and Jessie the Body Vantura? Remember Jessie firing a minigun!!! Do any countries actually use something crazy like that for infantry?!?!? That is hand-held and fired or was that an "only for movies" stunt kinda thing?

Joe


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## 1feral1 (28 Nov 2004)

As for the 'tooth' on the Malaysian contract FN para Minimi, this is the first time I have seen one, as its not used on any of the US, Aust, NZ, French, I have seen, or the Cdn C9 as I remember it (1994). I consider it very unusual indeed. It had everyone who noticed it asking questions.

Also present on this wpn was an abundant supply of ADI manufactured parts, such as the feed tray, and the guts on the inside of the feed cover. This we found unusual, so I can only figure that ADI somewhere has their fingers in the pie

This tooth thingo is used in their drills, and engages every time the cover is fully extended it clicks into place with or without the bbl fixed. 

As for the retracting Para Butt assembly, its practical, and easy to use. The MG can be fired iwith the butt extended or not. So, I reckon they have their place.

The butt assembly is usually fitted with a dummy buffer, as most countries use them, but others who choose the hydraulic buffer, its easily replaced along with a new type guide for the return spring.

Does anyone know if the new C9A2 is using the hydraulic buffer? Maybe because of the colder winter temps, they are not. :-\

Cheers,

Wes


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## Britney Spears (28 Nov 2004)

Neato information Wes, I never noticed the lack of the tooth on other versions of the minimi. Now I've gone back and reviewed some pics of this weapon, and indeed almost none have the tooth.  Can any of the old fogeys here remember when the tooth was introduced?

If you're interested, on the current C-9, when the bbl is in place, the barrel release lever is held in a position where it will not engage the tooth, (let's call it a Hold open device, HOD? heh). When the bbl is removed the lever is moved back all the way and will engage the HOD, presumably this is to facilitate easy cleaning and maintainace while stripped, and not to keep the cover open during actual operation. The feed cover falling on your fingers isn't a problem without the C79 sight.


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## foerestedwarrior (29 Nov 2004)

Pte (R) Joe said:
			
		

> Ekkks! Certainly wouldn't want to be on the "recieving" end of that beast! Nor any assault rifle or machine gun... That thing darn looks scary! Still remember the first time I say our .50 Cal machine gun, C-9? With the wooden buttocks and all, almost crapped my pants!
> 
> You folks remember "The Predator" with Arnold and Jessie the Body Vantura? Remember Jessie firing a minigun!!! Do any countries actually use something crazy like that for infantry?!?!? That is hand-held and fired or was that an "only for movies" stunt kinda thing?
> 
> Joe




Ill assume you mean SAW the .50 cal, and the C9 does NOT have a wood rear stock. The C6 does.

The minigun, well as far as I know, they weigh quite alot. So ya, too heavy to use.


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## Jinxed (29 Nov 2004)

If I remember correctly from a website about the miniguns (M-134), the miniguns were tested in Vietnam but were deemed too heavy and unwieldy.  Also the purpose of the minigun is to seriously saturate the air with rounds with an incredibly high firing rate, so you would probably be stumbling around with way too much ammo to carry as well as a heavy power supply.  Add that with a firing rate that high, you'd probably wind up on your butt spinning around and chopping your fireteam/section to pieces.  

I'd like to see a minigun though used as the M2 is used though, as a stationary tripod weapon carried by la section.

As for the Predator one, there's a site out there that tells you how they did it.  What it consisted of was the modified M-134 replica and power cables dragging behind Ventura.


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## KevinB (30 Nov 2004)

.50 cal HMG
7.62mm C6 GMPG
5.56mm C9 LMG - SAW in American parlance...


The MIniguns are still in use in both the M-124 "6Pack" 5.56mm version and 7.62 M134.  160th SOAR added them to their birds after Somalia (note BHD has the new 160th birds in the filming the actual birds had M60's and M240's)  USSOC also has Hummers set up with 5.56mm and 7.62mm Miniguns in Iraq and Afghan.


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## HollywoodHitman (1 Dec 2004)

Without a doubt the mini-guns would be an interesting addition to the CF arsenal. I think someone might consider them too imposing and call them un-Canadian, not to mention the ammunition expenditure it would require to use them on a range of some kind..........What do you guys think?

TM


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## soldiers301 (1 Dec 2004)

You can see a picture of C9A2 on the Diemaco Website. The C9A2 will have OD parts, like the C7A2 and will also have CADPAT sling and ammunition case.

www.diemaco.com     Go to the LMG Upgrade Program section.


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## soldiers301 (1 Dec 2004)

You can also look at this picture :


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## Northern Touch (1 Dec 2004)

Man, I can imagine the sting that C9 simunition would leave...... :-\


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## HollywoodHitman (2 Dec 2004)

Thats a very slick looking piece of kit.


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## chrisf (5 Dec 2004)

Jinxed said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly from a website about the miniguns (M-134), the miniguns were tested in Vietnam but were deemed too heavy and unwieldy.   Also the purpose of the minigun is to seriously saturate the air with rounds with an incredibly high firing rate, so you would probably be stumbling around with way too much ammo to carry as well as a heavy power supply.   Add that with a firing rate that high, you'd probably wind up on your butt spinning around and chopping your fireteam/section to pieces.
> 
> I'd like to see a minigun though used as the M2 is used though, as a stationary tripod weapon carried by la section.



I recall seeing various photos of miniguns mounted on top of some M113 APCs from the vietnam era, seems like it would be a rather effective, if not incredibly inefficient.


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## Yeoman (6 Dec 2004)

yes I've seen all those pics on diemaco.
but the latest c9a2's in a-stan that I've seen were all back, and I didn't see no hand grip or the butt didn't fold to the side either. that's the kind of stuff I'd like to know is what is the bells and whistles that they kept on the c9 that they first designed like on the webiste.
Greg


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## soldiers301 (6 Dec 2004)

Its normal, when a piece of equipement is on development you will dont have the final product. The one that you see in a-stan is some kind of "Prototype" but all the function are ready to operate.


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## KevinB (6 Dec 2004)

The folder and K grip where tested on RotoII

 1 / PL 
The only bitches I heard on the folder was it added abou 2" to the length making shooting with an open telestock a no go (not that it really mattered.)


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## Britney Spears (7 Dec 2004)

> The only bitches I heard on the folder was it added abou 2" to the length making shooting with an open telestock a no go (not that it really mattered.)



It seems the obvious solution would be to make the butt 2" shorter, or better yet, adopt a multi position telestock? Or is this some kind of trick question?


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## MJP (7 Dec 2004)

*KevinB posting on MJP's login...
The entire idea was to use the issue C8 telestock - and it work extremely well on the C9A2 - however the folder modification adds 2" to this.  SO unless you are 6'8" you will highly unlikley ever have to extend the butt.

 Furthermore this is using the folder/collapsible with Gen3 with plates - without you will able to extend the buttstock to keep a simialr checkweld


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## Britney Spears (7 Dec 2004)

Thanks for the clarification.


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## KevinB (8 Dec 2004)

No problem 

Mike told me not to post with his loggin but I was to lazy to log him off - I half expected him to delete the post.


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## MJP (8 Dec 2004)

Well you didn't slag anyone or send any emails to the CDS on my login so I kept it up....


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## KevinB (8 Dec 2004)

Check your sent box  ;D

  Dear Sir,

 You are a....


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## Bartok5 (11 Dec 2004)

> Dear Sir,
> 
> You are a....



Hey!  As a "sir", I resemble that remark....  You are a decidedly hurtful individual....

As a rebuttal, I offer the following:   "As I wipe the tears from my eyes, I steel my fragile psyche to embark upon a crusade of merciless retribution against those who would dare besmirch my honour"

That's right Kevin - you are in a world of (admittedly feeble) hurt starting right now!!!  

Oooohhhh - I wouldn't want to be you.......


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## Infanteer (11 Dec 2004)

???

You're the CDS, Mark C?


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## KevinB (12 Dec 2004)

I guess you got "Mike's" #CTC email...

 ;D


LOL


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## Freddy Chef (21 Dec 2004)

Jinxed said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly from a website about the miniguns (M-134), the miniguns were tested in Vietnam but were deemed too heavy and unwieldy.  Also the purpose of the minigun is to seriously saturate the air with rounds with an incredibly high firing rate, so you would probably be stumbling around with way too much ammo to carry as well as a heavy power supply.  Add that with a firing rate that high, you'd probably wind up on your butt spinning around and chopping your fireteam/section to pieces.
> 
> I'd like to see a minigun though used as the M2 is used though, as a stationary tripod weapon carried by la section.
> 
> As for the Predator one, there's a site out there that tells you how they did it.  What it consisted of was the modified M-134 replica and power cables dragging behind Ventura.



This one? http://world.guns.ru/machine/minigun-e.htm

Vehicle mounted M-134 is the only way it can get its power supply, and a means to carry its ammunition. 



			
				Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I recall seeing various photos of miniguns mounted on top of some M113 APCs from the vietnam era, seems like it would be a rather effective, if not incredibly inefficient.



M-134 was mounted on M113's (Vietnam) in the anti-aircraft role. Similar to these LAV Anti-Aircraft vehicles:

http://www.mowag.ch/Images/Bildergalerie/Piranha/Piranha%20II/Version8x8/8x8-II_24.jpg

http://www.mowag.ch/Images/Bildergalerie/Piranha/Piranha%20II/Version8x8/8x8-II_25.jpg

[Couldn't find pics M113 Anti-Aircraft/M113 Vulcan]



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> *KevinB posting on MJP's login...
> The entire idea was to use the issue C8 telestock - and it work extremely well on the C9A2 - however the folder modification adds 2" to this.  SO unless you are 6'8" you will highly unlikley ever have to extend the butt...



[http://www.gun-world.net/fn/minimi/c9.htm]

Butt telescoped
http://army.ca/cgi-bin/album.pl?photo=Weapons/C9A2_1.jpg

Butt retracted
http://www.gun-world.net/fn/minimi/c9a2_2.jpg

Butt retracted and folded
http://www.gun-world.net/fn/minimi/c9a2-s1.jpg
http://www.gun-world.net/fn/minimi/c9a2-s2.jpg


The butt fully telescoped was too long for practicality, eh?


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## KevinB (21 Dec 2004)

Freddy,

 I guess you have not shot it...

with the stock closed the gun is about as good for a gunfight in an elevator.

My point was that with the telestock-folder the foldign mechanism adds an extra 2" of length the the stock (when it is open) as a result the gun gets shot with the telestock closed but the folder open (get my drift?)

 I then added though this is usign the Gen III PBA and plates in...
so w/o you might have to extend the tele.

 In summation I think we coudl have made a slimmer profle folding system - with a better (and less obtrusive) latch system..


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## Freddy Chef (25 Dec 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> ...I guess you have not shot it...



No.

The last LMG I ever touched, did IA's on, was the C9A1, back in 2000.




			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> ...My point was that with the telestock-folder the foldign mechanism adds an extra 2" of length the the stock (when it is open) as a result the gun gets shot with the telestock closed but the folder open (get my drift?)...



The â Å“hingeâ ?  takes up space. OK. Got it. Thank you.


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## KevinB (26 Dec 2004)

Yes the hinge -
 While I think I write very elloquently, and provide detailed comments, I do seem to miss the main part from some of my intended remarks, and go off on tangents [or just don't have enough clarity with the writen word (I see exactly what I am refering to quite well in my mind - its your fault for not understanding   )] .

Cheers


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## Argyll (26 Dec 2004)

Is that 5.56 and 7.62 FX ammo?  Do we have that?


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## soldiers301 (26 Dec 2004)

C9, C9A1 and C9A2 are 5.56mm (NATO). The C6 is 7.62mm (NATO). The C7, C7A1 and C7A2 are 5.56mm(NATO) too.


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## KevinB (26 Dec 2004)

Adair said:
			
		

> Is that 5.56 and 7.62 FX ammo?   Do we have that?



Yes it is now in the system


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