# Going back to St Jean



## Lil_T (16 Nov 2009)

Hey all....

I'm really jumping the gun here as I just left my nice concrete bubble (aka the Mega) for my attach posting here at home.  I'm slated to go back 1 Feb 10 to be "reassessed" for my TCAT 3 and I'm, I guess, hoping against hope I'll be ready to go back to platoon and not AWT once that's done or very shortly thereafter.  

Realistically, I don't know what my recovery time is going to be.  My ortho says another 3 weeks before full weight bearing.  But that's just MY weight.  Not including the rucksack and all the other kit I have to hump around base.  I've been trying to keep up with my exercises that my Pt gave me as well as my upper body PT (push ups, sit ups etc... you should see me do a killer one legged pushup )  

Obviously my recovery time is a big question that's weighing on me - but I will save those questions for my ortho when I see him in a couple weeks. (pray for a good xray for me)

My other question is this - _If by some miracle I am actually declared fit - full duties, in Feb when I return to St Jean, what is the official (or close enough) policy on the obstacle course during the winter? _  

I'm not gonna lie, I'm scared shitless of the thing now in good weather - nevermind the ice and snow.  Farnham doesn't faze me, nor does the BFT - I know I can do it.  It's just that damned obstacle course.  I just don't want to break anything else... it's bad enough it's going to take me almost a full year of my 3 year contract to finish my BMQ.

*sorry for the rambling... just a little stressed for my first day on my attach posting.... :S


----------



## Antoine (16 Nov 2009)

Hi Lil_T

I've read in another thread that the obstacle course can be shutdown during winter.

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/68930/post-657862#msg657862

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/89023.0

Hope someone in "the known" can give you a more precise answer.

Cheers,


----------



## ballz (16 Nov 2009)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> My other question is this - _If by some miracle I am actually declared fit - full duties, in Feb when I return to St Jean, what is the official (or close enough) policy on the obstacle course during the winter? _
> 
> I'm not gonna lie, I'm scared shitless of the thing now in good weather - nevermind the ice and snow.  Farnham doesn't faze me, nor does the BFT - I know I can do it.  It's just that damned obstacle course.  I just don't want to break anything else... it's bad enough it's going to take me almost a full year of my 3 year contract to finish my BMQ.



Which obstacle exactly? The infamous "CF-98" by any chance?

I think you would be selling yourself short if you didn't go back there with the mindset to get back at that obstacle course and kick it's @$$. Those obstacles are meant to be confidence builders. They are more than doable, by anybody, and require only the right mindset. Fear is not that mindset. 

The military is trying to help you find that mindset, don't deny yourself the opportunity to achieve it.


----------



## Lil_T (16 Nov 2009)

nope they haven't used the "CF 98" in months now.  Not after the girl broke her back on it.  I got injured on one of the other ones.  For the most part - the obstacle course doesn't scare me - just maybe two/three obstacles.  I'm not afraid of heights - just of falling and that sudden stop at the end.

Also, it's hard to have that mindset when you hear your bone snap everytime you pass the damn thing.  That sort of thing messes you up a little.  Something else I'm dealing with - off board.  

I was more concerned with dealing with an icy injury-inducing obstacle.


----------



## Pelorus (16 Nov 2009)

Which obstacle is the "CF-98"?   My guess would be either the cargo ladder or the elevated tight-rope style one.


----------



## ballz (16 Nov 2009)

boot12 said:
			
		

> Which obstacle is the "CF-98"?   My guess would be either the cargo ladder or the elevated tight-rope style one.



Elevated rope style one...

Well Lil_T my only advice, which I got from a great Sgt while at the mega (every time we were doing extra-curricular PT ) is "do not deny yourself the opportunity." I know tons of my friends have seen the pics of me on the CF 98 and would pay to give the course a shot.


----------



## Lil_T (16 Nov 2009)

thanks ballz....  I'm not trying to deny myself anything.  I've put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into my career already - I am just not about to jeopardize it any further by allowing myself to get sidelined again.  

Anyway - I'll take a wait and see approach to this - it's all I can do really.  But I will not be heartbroken if I don't do the OC in the winter.


----------



## Drag (16 Nov 2009)

I got recoursed on the "CF-98" on IAP... The next time I did it was a bit strange but after that mental block was down it was fun every other time


----------



## Pelorus (16 Nov 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> Elevated rope style one...




We had 3 people in my platoon eat it on that one during the duration of the course, luckily no course-ending injuries.


----------



## X-mo-1979 (16 Nov 2009)

Is that the large one you gotta run down a rope bridge at the end and stab a dummy?


----------



## Pelorus (17 Nov 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Is that the large one you gotta run down a rope bridge at the end and stab a dummy?



It's a horizontal tightrope that is suspended 20-ish (?) feet off the ground.   You climb up the metal frame holding up the one side, lie flat on the rope, and then shimmy across on your stomach to the other side and climb down.


----------



## jeffb (18 Nov 2009)

My course was one of the first to do that obstacle. We called it the "rope of death". A couple of people fell of it rather epically (yes, I know that isn't really a word). I personally fell off it and did a nice face plant. I can honestly say it was the only thing during BMOQ that scared the *&^( out of me.


----------



## Cadaren (19 Nov 2009)

My platoon and our 2 sister platoons were the last to go across the high wire this summer.  Nobody in my platoon got hurt but a bunch fell, in our sisters Pl's though one person each broke their leg.  When I was there there was talk of standards getting a safety net underneath the rope, wonder if that's gone in yet.


----------



## Kat Stevens (19 Nov 2009)

Ours in Chilliwack just had a 4' deep pit of reeking stagnant water under it.  Really sucked falling into that in February, and you'd have to wash your gear three times to get the stink out.


----------



## tango22a (19 Nov 2009)

KaT:

That's amazing....The landing area on the "slide for life" was exactly the  same at The Infantry School at Borden almost 44 years ago. The cable ran from a tower on one side of the Pine river to a huge tree on the other side. Since the cable was wrapped around the tree you had a choice of dropping off into about 4 feet of goo or drilling the tree head on at a fair rate of speed. Seems to me a couple of the people in my platoon froze and really hit that old tree pretty hard. We were young at tough at the time and they just shook their heads and carried on.

tango22a


----------



## vonGarvin (19 Nov 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Ours in Chilliwack just had a 4' deep pit of reeking stagnant water under it.  Really sucked falling into that in February, and you'd have to wash your gear three times to get the stink out.


Ah, Igor's Pit!  That brings back memories!


----------



## tango22a (19 Nov 2009)

Kat;

The REAL fun began when we got to do it in full fighting order, complete with helmet and FN C1. You cannot possibly believe how many places in your kit and especially weapon that the goo could penetrate!


tango22a


----------



## Kat Stevens (19 Nov 2009)

I probably crossed that thing about 150 times in my years in Chillwack, so I know all too well what a mess that particular dunking could cause.  You got really good at it after a few mid winter baths.  My only nemesis on our obstacle course was the 20 foot wall, I really hated that prick.


----------



## tango22a (19 Nov 2009)

Lil_T:

Sincerely hope Kat and I have hijacked your thread. There was no attempt intended as we sort of got to telling war stories (I even got my old tin pot out!),

All you have to remember is: no matter how bad it seems to look to you.....Some other poor bu**er has already been there, done that!


Cheers,


tango22a


----------



## Lil_T (19 Nov 2009)

Cadaren said:
			
		

> My platoon and our 2 sister platoons were the last to go across the high wire this summer.  Nobody in my platoon got hurt but a bunch fell, in our sisters Pl's though one person each broke their leg.  When I was there there was talk of standards getting a safety net underneath the rope, *wonder if that's gone in yet*.



big no on that as of 13 Nov 09

no worries, tango22a... no worries  I enjoy the old war stories *especially now that I have one of my own* 

I'm just dealing with stuff as it comes.. I was told by the Doc at the MIR yesterday that I have CIS - so I get to go talk to the shrink some more.  All in all, things can only get better right?


----------



## tango22a (19 Nov 2009)

Lil_T:

Only too true!!

tango22a


----------



## Lil_T (19 Nov 2009)

as you can see, I'm having a good day today   

once again - thanks for thinking of me


----------



## tango22a (19 Nov 2009)

Lil_T:

NO PROBS!! Feel free to drop by any time!


Cheers,


tango22a


----------



## Lil_T (19 Nov 2009)

I WALKED!!!!!!!!!  I actually walked around my bedroom.  No pain - it just felt weird.


----------



## Lil_T (27 Nov 2009)

**little update**

at physio today my therapist tells me she's "really impressed" with my progress, even from my last visit to today.  She must be telling the truth, because she kept saying it over and over again.  She also told me that we can "really start working" once I see my orthopedist next week depending on what he gives me the green light on.  I'm excited because she told me that she doesn't think she's going to have to push me to work at all.  In fact, she said that she thinks she'll have to get me to slow down, and that the only thing I'm really going to need her for is muscle building/ strengthening.  

Needless to say, I'm more than a little thrilled at those statements.  Once I build my knee up a little more, I'll be ready to start adding more weight.  I already carry about an extra 15 pound on my back in my backpack.  I've been walking more and more without the crutches, but I'm taking it easy too.  Once I can lift and carry my 13 year old again fireman carry style I'll know I'm ready since he now weighs more than I do.    If I progress like I have been - I very well could be back on platoon the end of February (possibly with my old staff too)


couldn't help but notice a tan army.ca t-shirt meandering around the physio room too.  that sort of thing just sticks out.  Yeah I know that was random...   just thought I'd throw that out.


----------



## Lil_T (2 Dec 2009)

Greetings from sunny Saint Jean Sur Richelieu!  Just popping on before I go pick up supper.  had my appointment with my orthopedic surgeon today.  'twas awesome!!!!!!!  My leg is healing fantastically well.  He said it looks great and *drumroll*  I can get rid of my crutches tomorrow at the MIR and trade 'em in for a cane!  I am THRILLED!!!  sorry for the excessive use of exclamation points, I'm just ridiculously happy.  He also said that come my next appointment in January, I should be "fit/full duties" (I get the feeling that he treats a lot of military folk) depending on if my pain is gone, and if my leg can tolerate the extra weight.  Oh my God I'm so excited!  I really could be back on platoon by end February.  WOW.

Now, I'm also taking a wait and see with what the MIR folk say, as well as my care provider back in O-town. BUT - I am optimistic.  This news has just totally buoyed my spirits.  I have the green light to let the physiotherapist torture me as much as she wants to.  I can't wait.   Now, I just have to make it through BMQ without breaking again.  Back to early morning pushups etc again.  yay!!  I <3 my ortho, he rocks!!


----------



## JBoyd (18 Dec 2009)

Good luck with your recovery Lil_T, a girl from my section broke her leg on the first obstacle we did during the week 2 obs crse PT. It was raining and we did the monkey bars first. Hopefully things go really well for you and you will get your fit chit in Jan


----------



## Lil_T (21 Dec 2009)

Oh yuck Boyd, I'm sorry to hear that.  That's a really shitty deal.  How bad a break was it?  Sorry..... morbid curiosity

While I'm here I may as well update.  I'm walking (limping - mind) full time now.  I have a cane, but I only use it in the slippery spots outside.  I can be seen hobbling around downtown Ottawa usually holding the darn thing, but not actually using it.  Physio is going well - go back after the new year.  I'm well armed though with a ton of exercises to do, so I'm not slacking.  Apparently I am leaps and bounds ahead of where I should be at 9 weeks post op.  Still have some pain and occasional swelling, but the pain is mainly due to the surgery and having 4 screws in my leg plus the IM rod.  Same goes for the swelling.  From the research I've done, most people are just starting to weight bear at the stage I'm at, and here I am almost full weight bearing.  So far, though, I am navigating the stairs better, can actually walk at a normal pace, and can do some drill (yeah, that's right, I practiced). Still have a slow start in the mornings, sometimes the leg will stall, but all in all, I'm happy with my progress to date.

*geez - don't want to sound like I'm bragging. I'm not, I just never had anything to compare it to so I didn't get why everyone was so impressed*


----------



## MSEng314 (21 Dec 2009)

JBoyd said:
			
		

> Good luck with your recovery Lil_T, a girl from my section broke her leg on the first obstacle we did during the week 2 obs crse PT. It was raining and we did the monkey bars first. Hopefully things go really well for you and you will get your fit chit in Jan



We had a nickname for the obstacle course: "Career Ender."
We lost one from our platoon to a broken wrist and almost lost another to head trauma, you have to be real careful on the damn thing, or it will destroy you...   >


----------



## JBoyd (22 Dec 2009)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> Oh yuck Boyd, I'm sorry to hear that.  That's a really shitty deal.  How bad a break was it?  Sorry..... morbid curiosity



Not entirely sure of how bad the break is/was, but I do know they gave her 8 weeks ETA until she could properly walk again (not sure if this was just an ETA on walking, or if it was for a full recovery). The break happened about 3 weeks ago now, and a week ago she was off her crutches and hobbling along without a cane even (shes one stubborn woman lol). Our staff is being favourable in regards to how many classes she has missed, so she has the 3 week Christmas LTA to get better, well enough to get a fit chit within 2 or 3 days of returning to Saint Jean.


----------



## stealthylizard (22 Dec 2009)

I remember falling off the fireman's ladder in RFT, and landing right on my tailbone.  Luckily it wasn't serious.  Bruised but not broken.  It hurt to do simple things like sit-ups.  I loaded myself up with painkillers, and muscle relaxers just to make it through the next express test.  After that fall, I was scared to do it again once I got back on course, but with some "gentle" prodding from the various instructors, I managed my way through it.  I found it the most challenging obstacle course yet, even the one we were allowed to run through in BIQ, as part of CQC week wasn't as challenging, but then again, half the obstacles we didn't do.


----------



## Celticgirl (22 Dec 2009)

MSEng314 said:
			
		

> We had a nickname for the obstacle course: "Career Ender."
> We lost one from our platoon to a broken wrist and almost lost another to head trauma, you have to be real careful on the damn thing, or it will destroy you...   >



No kidding. I was lucky not to have broken anything after a nasty fall from the monkey bars. One guy on our platoon dislocated a hip, another a knee, and one cracked his ribs (and hid the injury for weeks until going to MIR for something else and getting X-Rayed...the MO was surprised to see multiple fractures, not what they were even looking for). On one of the other platoons, a guy fell off the Rope of Death and landed on his rifle. I still cringe when I think about that one. 

I remember the first time we went to the so-called Confidence Course. Most people on our platoon were so excited, high-fives all around. The next couple of times, a little more subdued, but still feeling positive about it. The last time...NO ONE wanted to go. Everyone knew by then that this was not just fun and games, it was a possible career ender, as you said above. That was the day I got injured. Some of my platoon mates told me later on that they were p***ed when they saw me fall because they knew someone was going to get hurt so close to grad if we did the course. I had a lot of pain and swelling from my injury, but no fracture showed up on the X-ray thank heavens so with many a painkiller and a lot of stubbornness, I finished the last 2 weeks of course and graduated. So many candidates get recoursed or released, though, due to injuries on course. Many of them come from falling off these obstacles. It is just insane, really. 

I just wish that standards would see what is happening with these trips to the Confidence Courses on basic. The very least they could do is minimize the number of times platoons go through and keep them off it altogether in the final weeks of the course. JMHO.


----------



## Lil_T (22 Dec 2009)

Seriously?  Lucky bitch. I'd give my first born to be back on platoon.


----------



## ballz (22 Dec 2009)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I just wish that standards would see what is happening with these trips to the Confidence Courses on basic. The very least they could do is minimize the number of times platoons go through and keep them off it altogether in the final weeks of the course. JMHO.



Pah-leeze.. The obstacle course is not that drastic. A minimal amount of fitness and athleticism is required to complete it. Without things like the obstacle course, BFTs, etc, how is the CF gonna weed out the dead plugs? This is still the military, there's a reason not everybody makes it through, they can't just take anybody. Why should the CF lower its standards to accommodate them? They signed up for the CF, not the other way around.


----------



## Lil_T (22 Dec 2009)

Indeed ballz; CLEARLY the standards are low enough. 

I believe the point Celticgirl was trying to make was that in the last week or so, when we're SO close to graduation, why do something to risk injury?  While the point of BMQ is to turn civillians into soldiers, sailors, and airmen - its purpose is not to break us before we can begin and I've seen way too many people injured on the obstacle course to take it as lightly as you seem to. 


See attached pics of the leg.  http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=337015&id=667430649&l=73ee43afa9

_George, I will surely not take his comments to heart.  I am working past my own issues, I just hate to see others make light of something that I've seen first hand destroy careers in a single day._


----------



## George Wallace (22 Dec 2009)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> Indeed ballz; CLEARLY the standards are low enough.
> 
> I believe the point Celticgirl was trying to make was that in the last week or so, when we're SO close to graduation, why do something to risk injury?  While the point of BMQ is to turn civillians into soldiers, sailors, and airmen - its purpose is not to break us before we can begin and I've seen way too many people injured on the obstacle course to take it as lightly as you seem to.



Indeed.

Don't be offended by ballz comments.  ballz is still in the Training System and still has the opportunity to experience the heartache of a Medical RTU a few days prior to a graduation.


----------



## Jammer (22 Dec 2009)

Why is it that all the newbies in training seem to have all the answers?


----------



## Lil_T (22 Dec 2009)

Jammer said:
			
		

> Why is it that all the newbies in training seem to have all the answers?



Just lucky I guess   :-\


----------



## mariomike (22 Dec 2009)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> See attached pics of the leg.  http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=337015&id=667430649&l=73ee43afa9



Lil T, it takes courage to overcome a Critical Injury and go back on the job.  As far as I am concerned, you are a very brave young woman.


----------



## Lil_T (22 Dec 2009)

Thank you VERY much MM.  I am doing the best I can.  Having a sore day today, but still determined (if just a little nervous) to return to duty.


----------



## ballz (22 Dec 2009)

That's one effed up leg. I'm amazed that happened on the obstacle course to be honest.

My point still stands, however, and there's nothing in it to be offended about, nor was it "making light" of anything. It was suggested that the standards be lowered to accommodate more people, and I don't agree with that sentiment.


----------



## Jammer (22 Dec 2009)

Hang in there LilT.
It'll all be worth it


----------



## Lil_T (22 Dec 2009)

ballz - as I said, I'm not offended, but I do feel you were making light considering past comments.  Now, I can understand how you wouldn't grasp the intensity of my injury and how it could happen on the OC, but it did - and does to others as well, almost regularly.  I do *not* feel that the standards should be lowered, quite the opposite in fact.  But I will agree with Celticgirl in that I don't believe we should be risking a serious injury with career implications so close to graduation.  Unfortunately, until the day comes where I work within the training system and I can affect how the course unfolds, I simply can't control that.



Jammer - thank you, I know it will be in the end.  I'm just looking forward to the day when I can run again.  And climb all those GD stairs.


----------



## Kat Stevens (22 Dec 2009)

At the risk of putting my neck in the noose yet again, here I go.  All training has a physical component that has the possibility of injury, possibly career ending.  The number of washouts on my CLC due to physical injury was astronomical.  Same for TQ3, TQ5, Hel Ops, Basic Para (me included) Leo D&M, ad nauseum.  Crappy that it happened to you, or anyone for that matter, but happen it will.


----------



## Lil_T (22 Dec 2009)

Oh, I'm fully aware of that Kat, and I'd be foolish to expect otherwise.  That being said, there is already a rather physically demanding curriculum during the last few weeks of BMQ that the OC isn't necessarily necessary.  I *personally* don't think having 2+ platoons worth of sleep  deprived recruits running an obstacle course in FFO is a particularly great idea.  That's all.  I know my former platoon did the damn thing at least once a week.


----------



## Nauticus (22 Dec 2009)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> Oh, I'm fully aware of that Kat, and I'd be foolish to expect otherwise.  That being said, there is already a rather physically demanding curriculum during the last few weeks of BMQ that the OC isn't necessarily necessary.  I *personally* don't think having 2+ platoons worth of sleep  deprived recruits running an obstacle course in FFO is a particularly great idea.  That's all.  I know my former platoon did the damn thing at least once a week.



I feel bad for your injury... but why not? Why does the proximity to graduation matter?

The fact of the matter is there isn't a graduation in war. BMQ should challenge all recruits, and I feel it should be even harder than it currently is. Most people who get injured in BMQ simply lack the fitness they need; others are just unlucky. Those who are unlucky always get a second chance. Those who are simply not in good enough shape won't pass the second time, and they get sent home.


----------



## ballz (23 Dec 2009)

Nauticus said:
			
		

> I feel bad for your injury... but why not? Why does the proximity to graduation matter?
> 
> The fact of the matter is *there isn't a graduation in war.* BMQ should challenge all recruits, and I feel it should be even harder than it currently is. Most people who get injured in BMQ simply lack the fitness they need; others are just unlucky. Those who are unlucky always get a second chance. Those who are simply not in good enough shape won't pass the second time, and they get sent home.



I'm 100% on board with every part of your post (especially that BMQ should be harder than it currently is). I had a post typed up, but thought I would leave it alone for a bit, and came home to see yours and Kat's sentiments and I'm right on board with both of you.

What I had typed originally, was that just because a 6 month tour is winding down, doesn't mean all the ops and missions just cease and everybody just chills out in limbo for the last week. The whole "so close to grad" stuff is just in people's head, and a bad thing to have in there at that.

Getting recoursed in week 2 is no different than week 11, in _reality_, but people's perception is usually not in line with reality.


----------



## mellian (23 Dec 2009)

It may vary instructor to instructor, are the obstacle reviewed with generally idea of how to tackle them safely before a training platoon does them? 

Whenever I do something that may risk injury, I make a point to make sure how to do it safely, either someone trains how or/and from observing others. There are risks in everything, but there is such a thing as being reckless. If there is no need (as in your or others lives are not in the line) to risk something known to cause bad injuries in decent numbers, than it becomes reckless.


----------



## Kat Stevens (23 Dec 2009)

There are not many things in the military you'll be asked to do without a demonstration first.


----------



## aesop081 (23 Dec 2009)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> I don't believe we should be risking a serious injury with career implications so close to graduation.



*News Flash*

BMQ is not the last time you will risk career ending injuries. What's next ? "I cant go to Afghanistan, i might injur myself severly and end my career" ?

Oh and dont bother playing any CF sports.......

or doing something like my job for example......

Yes the course (BMQ) can be demanding but for cripse sake, you are not the first person in the CF to have done it. We did things like the OC to the very end too..........

Edit : Good luck with your recovery.


----------



## Lil_T (23 Dec 2009)

Holy hell.

 I don't think I ever once said let's stop the OC once and for all. Not even. Yeah, working in the CF can be dangerous - I'm aware. But do not put words in my mouth. Everything we do has a degree of risk. I risk re-injuring myself daily just walking outside. Truly, I wouldn't have signed my contract if I wasn't ready to accept that risk.  

The point was made around graduation, that's all, I see no need to crucify someone over one OC session.  I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity to do the OC or other similar training on SQ or whatever. 

Am I scared to do it (the OC) again?  Hell yes, but I will. I know I'm not ready to do it right now. But when the time comes it'll be balls to the wall and I'll tackle the damn thing again with as much if not more determination than I did before. Its just who I am.


----------



## Celticgirl (23 Dec 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> That's one effed up leg. I'm amazed that happened on the obstacle course to be honest.
> 
> My point still stands, however, and there's nothing in it to be offended about, nor was it "making light" of anything. It was suggested that the standards be lowered to accommodate more people, and I don't agree with that sentiment.



You will need to read my post again. I did not suggest that "standards be lowered". I was talking of *Standards*, the_ division_. You know, the folks who decide what is taught on military courses like BMQ? They are the ones who decide things like how many times a platoon will visit the Confidence Course, so my 'suggestion' was that Standards reconsider sending platoons on the course 4 or 5 times throughout a 13-week course. It just seems excessive and elevates the chance of injury. 

I also disagree that succeeding on the Confidence Course is about 'athleticism'. It is really about overcoming your fears (hence the name) more than overcoming the obstacles themselves. The vast majority of folks on basic training courses are fit enough to complete the Confidence Course (if not all of them; this is, after all, the raison d'etre of the Expres test in week 0). It's just a matter of, well, _confidence_. However, there are also some conditions that will affect one's performance like being extremely tired and/or sore, inclement weather, etc.  I successfully manoeuvered the monkey bars the three previous times I did the course, but that fourth time, I just lost my grip. I was tired, pure and simple. It had zero to do with my athleticism or lack thereof. 

In winter especially, these obstacles become more dangerous. I just have to question the decision to have troops run through the obstacles a fourth time in the final two weeks of the course. Right before heading to the field, no less. Yes, the powers that be want to challenge recruits, but look at how many people end up on PAT or AWT (I think that is the term for it now) for weeks or months, some never able to complete their training and ultimately being released. After completing 10 or 11 grueling weeks of basic training, it's quite the kick in the teeth to get recoursed and have to adjust to being on a new platoon late in the course (if one is lucky enough not to get recoursed back to the beginning or lucky to be back on a platoon at all). 

Anyway, I do not wish to be argumentative here. I simply dislike seeing posts that dismiss those who had trouble on basic training as being unfit in some way, whiners, sh** pumps, or whatever. That is not necessarily the case. Don't assume the training system weeds out the aforementioned 'types', either. More often than not, it doesn't. 

I think I need a few bucks for this one... :2c:  :2c:  :2c:  :2c:  lol


----------



## George Wallace (23 Dec 2009)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> In winter especially, these obstacles become more dangerous.



I am surprised that they would run anyone through an Obstacle/Confidence Course in the winter.  Every Base I have been on, the Obstacle Crse has been closed as being unsafe, for the winter.


----------



## Celticgirl (23 Dec 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am surprised that they would run anyone through an Obstacle/Confidence Course in the winter.  Every Base I have been on, the Obstacle Crse has been closed as being unsafe, for the winter.



I did it in mid-January of this year on my first course (in St. Jean) and in late November/early December on my last (in Borden), so obviously that does not always happen. Ironically, the CC was closed on rainy days. But a little ice and snow? No problem. Go figure, eh.


----------



## Lil_T (23 Dec 2009)

well - time will tell I suppose.  I haven't been in St Jean during the winter, so when I go back the end of January we'll see.


----------



## JBoyd (23 Dec 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am surprised that they would run anyone through an Obstacle/Confidence Course in the winter.  Every Base I have been on, the Obstacle Crse has been closed as being unsafe, for the winter.



Our Platoon was scheduled to have our 2nd run at the obstacle course after our 3.2km rucksack march. That was 2 weeks ago and there was snow in Saint Jean, Not sure what everyone's definition of winter is but I believe that snow on the course would add higher risk to possible injury. We didn't end up doing the course as it was double booked and there was another Platoon on it when we got there, our staff didn't wish to stand out side in the cold for 40 minutes waiting so we had our bible and were dismissed for the day. A few of the recruits were disappointed that we were not able to do it (our first attempt only had reach section tackle about 4-5 obstacles) but on the flipside I think that if we had then we would have had at least one other injury. 

After our first run in week 2 while it was raining one of the MCpls commented that they should spray paint grip paint on most of the obstacles so that there would be a lowered risk of injuries. I don't know if injuries ultimately equate to a lack of athleticism, personally I think it results from a number of factors, including luck. In the end though, I feel that the majority of BMQ is to push you past your limits. Personally there are a few things so far that I have been reluctant to do due to fears, however after accomplishing those things and conquering my fears I experienced a boost in morale. I feel that this is the underlying motive behind the OC, regardless of possible injuries or not.


----------



## ballz (23 Dec 2009)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> You will need to read my post again. I did not suggest that "standards be lowered". I was talking of *Standards*, the_ division_. You know, the folks who decide what is taught on military courses like BMQ? They are the ones who decide things like how many times a platoon will visit the Confidence Course, so my 'suggestion' was that Standards reconsider sending platoons on the course 4 or 5 times throughout a 13-week course. It just seems excessive and elevates the chance of injury.



I read your post just fine and knew exactly who you were talking about and what you were saying. Running the obstacle course less times is lowering the standards. It's no different than saying "we'll run less distance because 4-5 km is 'excessive and elevates the chance of injury'"


----------



## George Wallace (23 Dec 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> ....................... Running the obstacle course less times is lowering the standards. It's no different than saying "we'll run less distance because 4-5 km is 'excessive and elevates the chance of injury'"



That should have been posted in "Whats the dumbest thing you heard said today?" thread.  

There is NO standard as to how many times someone runs through the Obstacle Crse.


----------



## George Wallace (23 Dec 2009)

Perhaps someone at CFRC, or running a BMQ somewhere else, could go to the TP and look up the PO/EO for the Obstacle Crse and post what the EC and/or PC is for it, as well as the number of classes dedicated to it.


----------



## ballz (23 Dec 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That should have been posted in "Whats the dumbest thing you heard said today?" thread.
> 
> There is NO standard as to how many times someone runs through the Obstacle Crse.



Well then maybe there ought to be? If a platoon runs it once and a person in another platoon gets injured on their 10th time doing it, then they might have reason to complain. If it's set in stone how many you will do, then it is what it is.

But yes George, that's definitely dumb of me to say because I'm so involved with writing the curriculum for BMQs that I ought to know better. It should be common sense to me that there is no standard amount of times for doing the OC. Or, common sense would suggest that there's always some sort of standard, so to assume there is one in this case is logical.

But no, I concede, this is dumber than a gr 4 science student assuming that cold water always freezes faster than hot water.


----------



## dangerboy (23 Dec 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> But yes George, that's definitely dumb of me to say because I'm so involved with writing the curriculum for BMQs that I ought to know better. It should be common sense to me that there is no standard amount of times for doing the OC. Or, common sense would suggest that there's always some sort of standard, so to assume there is one in this case is logical.



Sorry to detract from the thread but one quick question; are you saying you are involved with writing the TP for BMQs or am I misunderstanding what you wrote?


----------



## George Wallace (23 Dec 2009)

No.  He was just being an ass.  I would just let it pass.  He has a long way to go and perhaps CAP will sort him out.  Maybe not.  If he manages to get through that and the following training, then he can try to get on his Platoon WOs good side and then perhaps go on a Writing Team and write the BMQ TP.  Until then, looking at his profile; he is an ocdt.


----------



## Kat Stevens (23 Dec 2009)

We only did the OBSTACLE COURSE four times on my basic training, once at the end of the stroll back from Granville, the week before grad.


----------



## Lil_T (24 Dec 2009)

George, I'm sure anyone with DIN access and a desire to waste the time searching could look up the PO/EOs for the Obstacle Course, if any of us remember once the break is over.  Though as far as the number of classes dedicated to it, I believe there is one, maybe two.  Just prior to running through the course.  Will have to confirm with my compatriots.

Don't be too hard on ballz George, I'm sure he'll be a _great_ staff officer in a cubicle up here in Ottawa.  Why, I bet he could make an entire career out of it.


----------



## Brasidas (24 Dec 2009)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> ...PO/EOs for the Obstacle Course, if any of us remember once the break is over. ..



My take was that he was kidding, Tanya; never heard of a PO or EO for the obstacle course.


----------



## Lil_T (24 Dec 2009)

Yes, and I was being sarcastic... Sad that it doesn't translate well over the interwebs.


----------



## Celticgirl (24 Dec 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That should have been posted in "Whats the dumbest thing you heard said today?" thread.
> 
> There is NO standard as to how many times someone runs through the Obstacle Crse.



From what our course staff told us, this is absolutely correct. Completing the Confidence Course is not a PO. It is considered a PT class (or two, depending on how much time is slated for it, ours were usually 2 PTs). The number of times a platoon goes to the CC depends on what Standards has scheduled for that particular platoon. Sometimes, they can't fit in many visits, so a platoon will only go once or twice. Yet in other cases, there are lots of 'free' periods in which they can fit in visits to the CC, so a platoon might go half a dozen times in 14-15 weeks. Ergo, we can infer that going once or going half dozen times equates to the same thing, and that most recruits/candidates get a chance to go through the CC at least once, which is the goal, I would think. Even if they do not go - due to missing class because of illness, for example - it does not affect their standing on BM(O)Q at all. It's simply an exercise. Ditto rappelling. If you miss it, it's just a missed PT. Speaking of rappelling, we only do that once in basic training...why not 4, 5, or 6 times? I don't know anyone who was injured while rappelling, so what is the rationale of doing that once while doing the riskier CC multiple times? Both are physical activities meant to instill confidence, after all.

We lost 22 recruits on our course due to various reasons, including injuries. Most of them were not "plugs", either. One would think that Standards would want to increase the chances of recruits staying on platoon, whilst still maintaining the same standard for training across the board. Throwing in extra trips to the Confidence Course is simply adding unnecessary risks. No one is arguing that the BFT be abolished or that we don't have sleep dep exercises in the field. Those things result in injuries, too, but we are not subject to them arbitrarily. They are planned activities that take place at very specific points in the course. Can you imagine doing four 13k ruck marches in BM(O)Q, though? How many fewer graduates would we have then?

By the way, did you know that the Confidence Course in Borden has somewhere around 24 obstacles? Other than the few that were off limits due to needing some repair, my platoon did all of the obstacles each of the 4 times we visited the CC. JBoyd's platoon, on the other hand, got to try 4-5 obstacles on their first visit and then their second visit was cancelled. They may or may not have another period on the CC before grad. So where is the standardization there? (That's a rhetorical question, for those who may not catch it.  ;D)


----------



## KingofKeys (24 Dec 2009)

Why are you guys/gals bashing each other? Lets stick together, especially since you may all be working together one day. Anyway, I have a question: Can someone give me a summary of the obstacle course? Like exactly what you have to do from start to finish? Thankyou.


----------



## ballz (24 Dec 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> No.  He was just being an ***.



And what were you being? The kettle or the pot? :

EDIT: My opinion on this is clear, as is everybody else's, and there's really not much to debate or argue over. I'm out of this before it becomes a s**t slinging contest. George, if you've got anything to say to me you know where my inbox is.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (24 Dec 2009)

And your responses? They aren't gems either.

I would suggest that you sit back and reflect on your posts. Remember some of the members here have been in uniform longer that you have been walking the earth..... and might end up being staff for your CAP Course especially since its done at the "school of cool"

MILNET MENTOR


----------



## Lil_T (24 Dec 2009)

All negativity aside, I want to thank everyone who has offered and continues to offer their support to me while I'm dealing with my injury.  The words of encouragement do help.  Every day I try to overcome my fears and succeed a little more at a time.  I have my good days and my bad days - and I'm very lucky that my good days are outnumbering the bad.  

I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas (or seasonally appropriate holiday) and  Happy New Year!   :christmas happy:

T


----------



## jeffb (24 Dec 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am surprised that they would run anyone through an Obstacle/Confidence Course in the winter.  Every Base I have been on, the Obstacle Crse has been closed as being unsafe, for the winter.



I did BMOQ starting in Jan.- I was on platoon with CelticGirl-  and I do not think doing the obstacle course was especially dangerous. To my best recollection, we did the St. Jean course twice (maybe three times) and the Farnham course once. The only obstacles that you could really get hurt on are the cargo ladder and the rope obstacle that has been closed. Yes, I guess you could technically run full speed into the 6 foot wall but at worst you'd be looking at a broken foot. Frankly, I think you'd have just as much chance of a critical injury on a hot July day from heat related injuries as you would on a sunny, January or February day. 

At the time I went through BMOQ, I remember feeling that the challenge course presented a level of risk that I wasn't comfortable with. However, given a year of reflection and after spending some more time in the training system, I've come to realize the importance of the challenge course in increasing my risk threshold and well, confidence. I think that had I been injured on the challenge course I would have been quite bitter, mostly at being stuck in the Mega for longer then I needed to be, but I now think that a certain level of managed risk was important to help me transition from a relatively risk adverse civy life to a more CF style of thinking. I'm sure my opinion will change given more time but for now, that's where I stand. :2c:

On an quasi-related note,   to Lil_T for displaying a positive attitude towards getting back up and conquering that which defeated her.


----------



## Celticgirl (25 Dec 2009)

jeffb said:
			
		

> I did BMOQ starting in Jan.- I was on platoon with CelticGirl-  and I do not think doing the obstacle course was especially dangerous. To my best recollection, we did the St. Jean course twice (maybe three times) and the Farnham course once. The only obstacles that you could really get hurt on are the cargo ladder and the rope obstacle that has been closed. Yes, I guess you could technically run full speed into the 6 foot wall but at worst you'd be looking at a broken foot. Frankly, I think you'd have just as much chance of a critical injury on a hot July day from heat related injuries as you would on a sunny, January or February day.



Hi Jeff! Nice to see you posting.  

I respect your opinion re: obstacle courses on BM(O)Q. However, I do want to point out that there have been far worse injuries on these obstacles than a broken foot (how's yours by the way?).  I recall after our first trip to the obstacle course in January hearing of a female recruit who had broken her back falling off the cargo netting.  And when I was on PAR, I met a guy on PAT who had a broken collar bone (can't remember which obstacle he fell off, but I think it was the one we called the CF 98 - or "Rope of Death", lol). Also, on the platoon I just graduated with, one guy cracked several of his ribs trying to get over the 8 foot wall. He did actually succeed in getting over eventually, and I think was the only person to do so without assistance.    My point being that while there are more minor injuries than major ones, there are definitely some fairly serious injuries that occur. Even minor ones (like a broken foot) will put a candidate off the course. I would not have been happy if I'd had a broken arm, I can tell you. As you know, this has been a rather long and arduous journey for me.




> On an quasi-related note,   to Lil_T for displaying a positive attitude towards getting back up and conquering that which defeated her.



Ditto that! It shows true grit and dedication sticking with it through all that. I hope she makes it! 

By the way, Jeff, T. and I were talking about you the other day and saying we should all get together before I head back to ON for my next course.  :nod: I'll send you a msg on FB sometime in case you don't see this.


----------



## Lil_T (30 Dec 2009)

thank you both.  While I'm not going to chime in on the OC talk anymore, I just would like to say that I have my own issues I need to deal with - and really - that thing is the least of my worries.  I just hope that when the time comes I can put this whole shitty incident behind me and push forward.


----------



## Lil_T (11 Jan 2010)

Well.... looks like it's going to take a little while longer for me to get back on course.  Seems the proximal third of my tibia (by my knee) doesn't want to heal properly.  So no extra weight for the time being.  Which means no rucksacks, no FFO marches, no carrying anything heavier than a laundry bag, and definitely no lower body weight training.  FML.  Also means no chance in hell of getting back on course any time soon.  

I won't lie, I'm a little depressed over the lack of progress with the proximal third.... I thought for sure it'd be a bit better by now.  Instead, I get to go back AGAIN in 6 weeks and hope for the best.

Well, there's my update, I'm going to go wallow in a pile of chocolate cheesecake.


----------



## Ksiiqtaboo (11 Jan 2010)

awwe lil i was hoping to meet you on the feb 22nd BMQ but you got to take care of that leg  can i have some cheesecake to?


----------



## x512er (11 Jan 2010)

Hang in there  T , sounds like your head is in the right place to succeed. Like the old saying goes "tough times never last, but tough people do"...........


----------



## Lil_T (12 Jan 2010)

Thanks . Trying to keep a good attitude about this shitshow of a situation is not easy. But I'm trying. Once again, I appreciate the support.


----------



## Ksiiqtaboo (12 Jan 2010)

well we all with you the best T keep positive


----------



## mariomike (12 Jan 2010)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> Thanks . Trying to keep a good attitude about this shitshow of a situation is not easy. But I'm trying. Once again, I appreciate the support.



Lil-T. For what it is worth, you were injured in the Line of Duty. Critically Injured. That doesn't take away your pain, or loss of enjoyment. But, I have a lot of respect for any member who is injured while following orders.


----------



## Lil_T (12 Jan 2010)

Thanks much MM. I'm still trying to come to grips with everything. Thought I'd be over this by now.


----------



## kadrury (14 Jan 2010)

I'm on attached posting right now too. I was on AWT1. I was put on a 6 month category due to breaking my foot in 3 places. Today I went to see the doctor hoping to get my fit chit and get sent back to the Mea for course but the doctors at the MIR had other plans. He renewed my 6 month category because I have major nerve damage in my foot now.  :-[ Hope to get back there soon. Just wanted to let you know I can relate to your story. Keep a good attidue going and you will be back on course soon. I hope I will.


----------



## Lil_T (14 Jan 2010)

thanks.  Good luck to you with your category too.  What week are you going back to? do you have to start all over again?  When I do get back to the Mega, I'll be likely go to AWT2 then WFT, THEN platoon.


----------



## CallOfDuty (14 Jan 2010)

..what is AWT1/2?


----------



## HItorMiss (14 Jan 2010)

AWT is the new acronym for PAT stands for Awaiting Training I believe.


----------



## kadrury (15 Jan 2010)

I'll be going back to AWT1 then WFT then platoon. Probably week 1 because I have been injured so long. I came off week 6 so it kinda sucks.


----------



## Lil_T (15 Jan 2010)

AWT is Adapted Warrior Training, it's where the broken injured people go.  The number after it refers to the phase(1,2,3), AWT is done alphabetically, whereas WFT (Warrior Fitness Training) the phases are based on readiness.  Phase 1 being people new to WFT and phase 3 being those who passed their expres test and are ready for platoon.  Phase 2 is for people who have gone through phase one training and still haven't passed their expres test so are not ready for phase 3.

That does suck that you have to start all over again, I'm right there with you on that one.  I think the only thing we won't have to redo is the fire extinguisher stuff because we already have our cards for it and it's a yearly (?) thing.  I could be wrong... but the guy doing the fire extinguisher course usually asks who has done it before and if you raise your hand he tells you to go sit in the B129 waiting/ break area.


----------



## ballz (16 Jan 2010)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> WFT (Warrior Fitness Training) the phases are based on readiness.  Phase 1 being people new to WFT and phase 3 being those who passed their expres test and are ready for platoon.  Phase 2 is for people who have gone through phase one training and still haven't passed their expres test so are not ready for phase 3.



Do you know when they started the WFT phases? We had a few people join our platoon from WFT and I never got the impression that there were phases and such. It seemed like the newbs who were not ready were just thrown together with the people that were done their express test and waiting to go on platoon.

Whether this is new or not, it's a good idea. The Phase 3 people have passed the Express test so it's appropriate and safe to PT the crap out of them and get them ready for platoon, where as if they were still working out with the Phase 1 people they would be held back.


----------



## Lil_T (16 Jan 2010)

They've had phases for as long as WFT has been WFT.   The reason you don't hear/ know about it, is because most people are so sick of the process by the time they get back on course they don't want to talk about it.  Phase 3 is a holding platoon, at most the new people are on phase three for a week before being phased.  Mind you, it also runs the new people off their asses which is somewhat comical (I can laugh, I've been there and will be there again).  It is a bit of a motley crew at times, but it's a good opportunity to work out, get in better shape and make some friends.

The psp staff gradually work you to the point where you CAN keep up with them, they're an awesome bunch (a little sadistic but it's ok).  They're idea of "fun" is a little skewed endless plank sessions and such - but as long as they see the effort that you put in and you have a good attitude you are golden. I learned to love spinclass on warrior.

Anyway, I'm rambling, hope I was able to answer your questions.  Think it's time for bed.


----------



## tomtom (21 Feb 2010)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> Phase 3 is a holding platoon, at most the new people are on phase three for a week before being phased.




I wish it was just a week.  My husband has been sitting at phase 3 WFT for the last 7 weeks.  According to him the platoons right now are so overloaded, that even when people fall off, there is little room to move people on. 

I'm just hoping they get this straightened out soon.  It is really frustrating for all of us to have him ready and able for platoon but just no spots for him to go.


----------



## Lil_T (22 Feb 2010)

What I meant by new people are the people who are new to WFT.  I was there for 8 weeks +/- myself.  5 weeks total of WFT 3 and 3 of WFT 1.  The waiting is the worst part.  I hope your hubby gets on platoon soon.

The problem is, is that there's a degree of seniority that's involved - which is only fair.  Add to that the fact that they overload the courses - sometimes starting out with a platoon of 65-70 when there is only space enough for 60.  So unless there is a rare case of >15 people failing their expres test or wanting to VR right off the hop there's little room for people to move.  There was talk of a Warrior platoon being stood up if they had enough people. But that has to go through CFRG and everything to get approved because they have to leave a  slot open that new recruits could be taking up.  Logistically speaking it's a bit of a nightmare.  Believe me, I understand his frustration, and I'm afraid I'm going to have to deal with it again come July.


----------



## Lil_T (6 Apr 2010)

Just a little update.

I've been avoiding the board a little bit, mostly because I don't have much to say.  But, as the dates draw closer to my return to St Jean I have to admit that I'm feeling more than a little apprehensive.  Not because I don't know what I'm about to face, but because I know exactly what I have to face.   I've been dealing with a lot these last (good Lord!) almost 6 months.  Between the leg, some issues at home, and the PTSD the social workers said I have, it's been rough.  Doing a LOT better now than I have in I don't know how long.  Truth be told though, thinking about my injury and how it happened still makes me want to vomit.  Only thing I can do is either A. try to desensitize myself to it, or B. muscle past the gag reflex and carry on when I get there.

On a lighter note - I'm RUNNING again.  Awkwardly still, but I'll take it.  I can run level 3 now.  I know it's not great, but all things considered - it's freaking fabulous.  Also, I should be getting my fit chit in May/ June right before I go back to St Jean.... provided everything with physio works out.  Hopefully I won't have to wait too too long for a course, but from what I can tell, there aren't a lot of serials running in July.

No matter, I'll get there, I'll finish - and I'll be damn proud to post the photos of my grad parade!!


----------



## mariomike (6 Apr 2010)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> No matter, I'll get there, I'll finish - and I'll be damn proud to post the photos of my grad parade!!



Looking forward to it, Lil-T!


----------



## Lil_T (6 Apr 2010)

thanks MM!!


----------



## kadrury (8 Apr 2010)

Trust me I am in the same boat you are. I am getting my fit chit hopefully in July and heading back to st jean the 18th of July. I am a little more than apprehensive. I am scared shitless but I will do what it takes to get done and so will you Lil_T! Try to stay positive and congrats on running again! Every little hurdle is a step closer to grad!


----------



## zipperhead_cop (8 Apr 2010)

> and the PTSD the social workers said I have



Sorry if I missed it, but there was a point in your training when you believed that you were going to die?  Things are perhaps a bit too intense at St. Jean I think.


----------



## Loachman (8 Apr 2010)

Oh, the relief...!

When I saw that you'd posted in this thread I was sure that it was going to be about the "muscle past the gag reflex" bit.

And while I'm on that subject, I'd like to compliment the entire male membership of this Site who have restrained themselves from commenting about that. I know that y'all wanted to.

Anyway, and back to topic, a significant injury is definitely going to give the average person some level of apprehension about repeating the chance of having a similar experience and I can understand her concerns, whether or not a proper diagnosis of PTSD has been made by competent authorities.

So, Lil_T, good luck, "muscle past the gag reflex", but please help us all keep this a family-safe sight by avoiding future temptations for those of us blessed with active imaginations.


----------



## Occam (8 Apr 2010)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Sorry if I missed it, but there was a point in your training when you believed that you were going to die?  Things are perhaps a bit too intense at St. Jean I think.



I think you'd better take a look at the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for PTSD.


----------



## karl28 (8 Apr 2010)

Lil_T        Good luck with going back to St Jean I hope that it works out for you .

Cheers  Karl


----------



## zipperhead_cop (8 Apr 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> I think you'd better take a look at the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for PTSD.



I'd be happy to.  Have a non-DWAN link?


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2010)

As requested:  http://www.mental-health-today.com/ptsd/dsm.htm


----------



## zipperhead_cop (8 Apr 2010)

> The person's response to the event must involve intense fear, helplessness, or horror



I guess that just doesn't come out in the thread.  This is what I thought was the general demeanor:



			
				Lil_T said:
			
		

> Am I scared to do it (the OC) again?  Hell yes, but I will. I know I'm not ready to do it right now. But when the time comes it'll be balls to the wall and I'll tackle the damn thing again with as much if not more determination than I did before. Its just who I am.





			
				Lil_T said:
			
		

> Seriously?  Lucky bitch. I'd give my first born to be back on platoon.



And this was the mental issue:



			
				Lil_T said:
			
		

> I was told by the Doc at the MIR yesterday that I have CIS - so I get to go talk to the shrink some more.





			
				Lil_T said:
			
		

> I won't lie, I'm a little depressed over the lack of progress with the proximal third.... I thought for sure it'd be a bit better by now.  Instead, I get to go back AGAIN in 6 weeks and hope for the best.



Just not tracking in there a person who is debilitated by PTSD.  Perhaps something is lost in the medium.  Perhaps CIS and PTSD are the same thing?  I will admit not knowing.  

I hope she overcomes all of her issues and resumes her career path with the CF.


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Apr 2010)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Just not tracking in there a person who is debilitated by PTSD.  Perhaps something is lost in the medium.  Perhaps CIS and PTSD are the same thing?  I will admit not knowing.



People can have PTSD (or an anxiety issue) and not be "debilitated" by it.  I work with someone who has been diagnosed and they're fine, unless they are put in certain situations.  I think in Lil_T's case, thinking about having to go through the obstacle course again is causing some stress but I believe (and hope), that once she does get through it successfully, she'll have no more problems with it.



			
				zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I hope she overcomes all of her issues and resumes her career path with the CF.



Me too.


----------



## tristismilitis (8 Apr 2010)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Perhaps CIS and PTSD are the same thing?  I will admit not knowing.



When broken down to the bare bones of symptoms they sound a lot alike but they are not the same thing.  For anyone who is interested:

“Critical Incident Stress is a normal reaction to sudden and unexpected events beyond our normal range of everyday experiences...(events we are unprepared for, events that are intense, graphic and totally overwhelming). How an individual reacts to these situations varies from person to person. Any experience of unusually strong emotional reactions that hamper an individual’s ability to function during or following an event may be categorized as Critical Incident Stress.
The degree to which one is affected by Critical Incident Stress is dependent on several factors: the actual event, its intensity, duration, and the level of unexpectedness. There are no limits to the conditions and variables that form stress and emotional aftershocks...
Critical Incident Stress Reactions are event specific. They can be acute, occurring during the actual event, or delayed, occurring minutes, hours, months or even years after the event. An acute reaction during an incident may interfere with your ability to act or react. The symptoms range from a physical response, such as nausea or hyperventilation, to a behavioural response, such as a total inability to perform required tasks. Sufferers can experience impaired thought processes and even a complete emotional shut down. Many people will not experience any symptoms at the time of the event”

It is thought that if the stress from a ‘critical incident’ is not managed, the individual is at risk for developing PTSD (there are some studies that say critical incident stress management does not really have an impact on developing PTSD, or may have a negative effect if the person was injured during the stressful event)

When looking at CIS/PTSD it helps to remember that an incident that is stressful for one person may not faze the person standing next to them. Coping mechanisms (or lack of) are unique to individuals.


----------



## Lil_T (8 Apr 2010)

zipper,

I apologize if my refusal to whine and open up completely about how my injury has affected me, my life, and the lives of my family members has caused some confusion.  But really.  Thank you for being so understanding.  

Did I think I was going to die?  No, but I did seriously believe that my career had come to an end.  I fail to see how that would not cause at least a little stress.   Perhaps I put a lot of undue pressure on myself.  But I set the bar for myself pretty damn high, so excuse me for having a reaction that you might expect would only be appropriate from someone whose life was threatened.   

No, I'm not crippled by it - anymore.  I'm sorry I didn't let you in on all the flashbacks, nightmares and anxiety attacks I was having.  I'll know better if there's a next time.  Then I'll just pm you all the gory details of my mental state.  I'm sorry I felt safe enough to share a little bit of what I was dealing with, it won't happen again.  


As for the "muscle past the gag reflex" thing... oy, I wasn't even thinking anything less than innocent when I posted it.  Must remember my audience  ;D  sorry!  And thank you to everyone else for being more understanding.


----------



## Lil_T (8 Apr 2010)

kadrury said:
			
		

> Trust me I am in the same boat you are. I am getting my fit chit hopefully in July and heading back to st jean the 18th of July. I am a little more than apprehensive. I am scared shitless but I will do what it takes to get done and so will you Lil_T! Try to stay positive and congrats on running again! Every little hurdle is a step closer to grad!



I'm trying girlie.  I'll see you in July, I'm going back the 2nd.  They're sending me back to AWT (to draw my kit) and then to WFT where I get to wait and work out.    Just not looking forward to sporting that *A*.


----------



## gcclarke (8 Apr 2010)

A scarlet A? I really hope that means something other than what it historically meant.


----------



## the 48th regulator (8 Apr 2010)

The CF moved away from CISD several years ago as it was found to cause harm in some cases.    

The Joint Speakers Bureau (JSB) now has the mandate to deliver training on Mental Health and OSIs to the CF.   The CF is now integrating JSB programs into all levels of training from BMQ to ALQ.  In addition, JSB, in collaboration with Health Services, are now working on predeployment, post deployment, as well as revamping the TLD package to ensure that all CF training is consistent.  

OSIs, although not a medical or legal term, are defined as follows;

An operational stress injury (OSI) is any persistent psychological difficulty resulting from military service. OSIs include diagnosed medical conditions such as anxiety, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).

More information can be found at the Mental health Canada Website as well.

dileas

tess


----------



## Lil_T (8 Apr 2010)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> A scarlet A? I really hope that means something other than what it historically meant.



LOL!!  Noooo not even close.  It stands for AWT, and I'm oh so lucky to get to wear one


----------



## Fusaki (10 Apr 2010)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> zipper,
> 
> I apologize if my refusal to whine and open up completely about how my injury has affected me, my life, and the lives of my family members has caused some confusion.  But really.  Thank you for being so understanding.
> 
> ...



I think this snarky bit of passive-aggression was uncalled for.

I don't think Zip was being unreasonable when he asked you to clarify how you got PTSD from the obstacle course in St Jean.  Your offhand reference to PTSD caught me off guard too.  It's just not the kind of trigger people typically associate with the disorder.

PTSD is a touchy subject around here.  I don't think it's right that you'd bring it up, and then play the victim when someone politely asks you to expand on what you've said.


----------



## Lil_T (11 Apr 2010)

Funny, I didn't find it very polite.   

Polite - to me - would have been him PMing me for clarification - not calling me out in front of the whole damn board.  But I suppose that is a matter of perspective.  Also, I was not being passive aggressive.  Sarcastic in places yes, but definitely not passive aggressive. 

Just because my trigger is different from someone else's doesn't make it any less real.  PTSD is not a solely combat related condition.  

So please - if you'd really like the guts of what I've been going through the last few months, by all means - PM me, because I'm certainly not going to bore everyone else with the details.  

As for playing the victim, well, I kind of felt like one.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (11 Apr 2010)

Lil_T said:
			
		

> Then I'll just pm you all the gory details of my mental state.  I'm sorry I felt safe enough to share a little bit of what I was dealing with, it won't happen again.



Fill your boots.  Or post it on your blog.  Funny thing about posting things on an open public board, people might just comment or question it.  



			
				Lil_T said:
			
		

> Funny, I didn't find it very polite.



It was.



			
				Lil_T said:
			
		

> Polite - to me - would have been him PMing me for clarification - not calling me out in front of the whole damn board.  But I suppose that is a matter of perspective.



Oh, so you can use this thread as your personal blog but since in reality this is a _discussion board_, when somebody _discusses_ something that you find displeasing they should take it to a PM?  And I didn't "call you out", I simply didn't make a connection from getting a training injury to something that I  was of the impression took a whole lot more to occur.  I don't begrudge anyone having a hard time adjusting/coping/dealing.  It simply concerns me that the easier it is for people to slot themselves into a PTSD catagory, the less attention people who end up losing bits and parts and wearing the same from their friends may get.  Doubtless, the CF medical care system is so comprehensive and universal it can handle everything and more.  



			
				Lil_T said:
			
		

> Just because my trigger is different from someone else's doesn't make it any less real.  PTSD is not a solely combat related condition.



Never suggested otherwise.  Just questioned the labeling.  I have been suitably advised and won't make the mistake again. 



			
				Lil_T said:
			
		

> So please - if you'd really like the guts of what I've been going through the last few months, by all means - PM me, because I'm certainly not going to bore everyone else with the details.



Nah, I'll stick with being bored with the details you chose to slap on here.  I'll keep visiting your blog though.  



			
				Lil_T said:
			
		

> As for playing the victim, well, I kind of felt like one.



Well, I guess now we all are too.


----------



## Lil_T (11 Apr 2010)

zip... I apologize for my knee jerk reaction to your statement.

I will admit, I'm not used to being questioned WRT the shit I've been dealing with.  Perhaps I took your meaning the wrong way, and I really hate to admit it but I allowed some faceless internet dude to hurt my feelings.  I had a much tougher skin than this before my injury.  I also dislike admitting when I'm wrong, but I'm a big girl and figure I can at least do that.  I was wrong, and I apologize for attempting to verbally tear a strip off you.  Being angry with myself is no reason to lash out at someone else.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (12 Apr 2010)

No blood no foul.  Never meant to hurt your feelings, so if that happened inadvertently, I am sorry too.  

Hope your wheel gets fixed sooner than later.


----------



## Lil_T (12 Apr 2010)

thanks.


----------



## Lil_T (5 Jun 2010)

Whoop! Going back 2 or 4 July.  Depending on if I can get my weekend. Yes, I'm milking it... Fingers crossed it works out that way, if not, well, such is (military) life.  

My 2088 expires the 26th, so I'm hoping the category is lifted completely then.  

Also, just started P90X and it's awesome!  I love it.  I haven't sweat this much since mid-August PT with the PSP staff!!!


----------

