# American Over reaction to "foreigners"



## Michael Dorosh (17 Jul 2004)

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/article_landing.aspx?articleid=711&Titleid=1&titlename=&

Read this article in its entirety.  At another board I post at, some Americans talked about how frightening this link was and how they were scared out of their wits because of this.

Then someone else posted this link:

http://jeffthebaptist.blogspot.com/2004/07/terror-in-skies.html

Some of the comments by the Americans at this site were beyond belief.  They suggested that these guys couldn't possibly be have played in a band, because, and I quote "Arabian Music isn't popular in casinos."   ;D  Uhh....yeah, Arabs can only play "Arabian music" (whatever the hell that means) just like the London Philharmonic would never play, oh, "German music" or "Austrian Music" like Beethoven or Brahms or Bach or Mozart because they are British.

Others suggested that these guys had no business "carrying on" because they knew they were going to upset people and basically suggested they "act like everyone else."

We had a caucasian fellow in our regiment here who converted to being a Muslim, I remember vividly him praying at the rifle range in Wainwright.

Very peculiar reaction from the Americans on that site; they seemed to feel that other passengers would have been justified in beating the shit out of these guys - better safe than sorry - because the plastic bag may have contained a bomb rather than a prayer rug....


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## Scott (17 Jul 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Some of the comments by the Americans at this site were beyond belief.  They suggested that these guys couldn't possibly be have played in a band, because, and I quote "Arabian Music isn't popular in casinos."   ;D  Uhh....yeah, Arabs can only play "Arabian music" (whatever the heck that means) just like the London Philharmonic would never play, oh, "German music" or "Austrian Music" like Beethoven or Brahms or Bach or Mozart because they are British.
> 
> Others suggested that these guys had no business "carrying on" because they knew they were going to upset people and basically suggested they "act like everyone else."



Buddy MacMaster (The Cape Breton fiddler, uncle to Natalie MacMaster) is a friend of my father's. One time while I was waiting to catch a flight (Dad was allowed into the sanitized area because he was a Security Inspector for TC at the time) we met Buddy in the waiting area. Dad stopped to talk to him and I later asked if the airline would allow Buddy to carry on his fiddle. My Dad snorted and said that Buddy would probably tell Air Canada to go f*** themselves if they asked him to check it as he imagined a fiddle like that would be worth alot of money and that Buddy, being a musician, would probably never let the tool(s) of his trade out of his sight.....Make sense doesn't it?


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## ags281 (17 Jul 2004)

Kind of reminds me of a night a couple of years back when I was doing rounds through some cadet barracks as duty officer. An hour after lights out, after repeatedly having to tell kids (all of them senior cadets who should know better) to shut up and sleep I decided that the next person who crossed me was getting my worst. Not fifteen seconds after deciding this, what should happen but a cadet has the audacity to come strolling down the hall like he owns the place - at least it looked that way to me. Naturally, I led off demanding to know just what the hell he thought he was doing. "Going to pray sir" he says holding up his prayer rug, and adding "Capt ____ said it's ok" in the stunned pause as my planned course of action ground to a halt. I barely managed to say "oh, sorry, that's ok" as my brain struggled to downshift through the full range of gears all at once.

Man did I ever feel like an ass   :-[ (I later found out from the Captain that this permission came from him doing the exact same foot-in-mouth routine during the first night of the course   ;D)


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## Infanteer (17 Jul 2004)

I don't want to play the armchair quarterback here, but if I were on a flight and fourteen characters of any background were doing something suspicious (although I can guarantee you the fact that these men were Arab contributed to this women's suspicions) on a plane I would do one of two things:

1) Go into their group huddle and line up for the bathroom, perhaps confronting them on what they were doing, because post of the passengers were aware of their actions.

2) Go into the bathroom with a good book and take a forty minute dump, confounding their plot for world domination.

If the situation was so blatantly obvious, why didn't anyone do something?  I often say that airline hijackings are finished as a terrorist technique after 9/11 because passengers would be unwilling to the point of fighting on the plane to become passengers on a cruise missile; witness the fourth 9/11 plane.  If the passengers were genuinely concerned for their safety, why did they sit there and pray, rather then do something about it?

Yes, perhaps this women is overreacting.  These "signals" between the men could have been acknowledgements such as "Hey, you look to share the same background and religion as I do. how is it going."  I would do the same overseas to some goof with a Canadian flag on his backpack.  However, 14 Syrian men must be aware of the fact that mainstream American's (and most Westerners for that matter) will be slightly aware of them if they were seemed to be unconnected yet acting in concert.  If they were doing so for genuine reasons, it's their fault for not having the common sense to try and be a little more discreet.


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## brin11 (17 Jul 2004)

Or perhaps they WERE doing it on purpose simply to make people uncomfortable.  Seeing that they were not arrested the authorities must not have found anything on them that pointed to any illegal activity.  Whether they had any intention of a "dry run" or not (in the event that they were planning something untoward), this might have been a ploy to use scare tactics against their enemy.  

Just another thought...


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## 1feral1 (18 Jul 2004)

On 01 Jul, I boarded an Air Canada Flight (AC34) in Sydney bound for Vancouver, with a stop over in Hawaii for about 2.5hrs. A B767 AC marked aircraft.

Two muslims also boarded, and were watched by protectve services, until they got on the plane. One woman in the full garb about 60yrs old, and one younger male about 35. They were the only two middle eastern people on the flight, which consisted manily of Aussies and Cdns returning to Canada. There were about 170 of us on the flight.

Upon arival in Hawaii, we were all herded into an immigration area, and processed with our US visa applications in hand. It took about 3 mins per person, and when the muslims went thru, it was about 20 mins, then they were escorted to another area where they were under constant view of customs, and for the entire duration, the younger one was constantly kept at a counter while the older one sat beside him.

Then the flight boarded and we later arrived in Vancouver, and they disappeared into the awaiting crowd.

The US authorities in Hawaii had kept them busy the whole time, and as of 01 Sep, all foreigners will be finger printed and photographed.

I view it all as better safe then sorry, and I would rather be late than dead. If these type of restrictions and security would have been in effect on 11 Sep 01, maybe things would have been different.

I read the article above, and if I saw a bunch of ME looking people looking suspicious, I too would have concern, and if I had over 2800 of my countrymen murdered in cold blood, maybe I would feel the same too.

I dont blame our US neighbours for doing what they are, after all they are at war, and if these efforts save one life, its worth it.

I again depart for Sydney from Vancouver in 8 days, after a great holiday here in Canada, and I again will be vigilant during the flight.


Cheers,

Wes


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## Scott (18 Jul 2004)

My only question is, where is the line drawn? How far is too far when it comes to security?

I applaud security measures in our airports, as I said, my father worked for TC in the Aviation Security Branch and I know that he thinks security was seriously lacking before 9/11. I guess I still want to believe that 9/11 was the one time thing that resulted in a slip up and that sooner or later everything will go back to "normal" call it naive, but one can hope.

Cheers


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## Infanteer (18 Jul 2004)

> My only question is, where is the line drawn? How far is too far when it comes to security?



I would consider the Japanese internment camps to be over the line; seizure of property and being held without trial of Canadian citizens are grave breaches of personal liberty.

Unfortunately, the PC crowd has changed the highschool curriculum to portray WWII as the great wrongs done to Japanese-Canadians and the Jews; oh yeah, the Canadian military did a couple things in Europe, but we'll skip that.  Alas, I digress here.

As for racial profiling (this is the heart of the argument, is it not?), I constantly listened to people in my classes deride those cautious border guards doing it as "racists" and the such.  Look at pictures of the 9/11 bombers.  Look at the pictures of the FBI's most wanted terrorists.  

You see a trend developing here, don't you.  Border guys can't scrutinize everybody, so they have to be discriminating in some sense as they only choose a certain percentage of people to focus on.  If you think they do it solely on ethnicity, then you're insulting their professional abilities.  If they do it due to ethnicity, nationality, less then credible travel reasons, and a plethora of other little things that set off the alarm bells, all based on reasonable fears due to the fact that there is some distinct commonalities between all the terrorists that attack us, then I guess they are doing their job.


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## Scott (18 Jul 2004)

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to be a bleeding heart. The new measures are meant to discriminate, they are to discriminate against the bad guys. I agree, Infanteer, one look at the pictures of the 9/11 hijackers and the FBI's most wanted list portrays it very clearly who we are after. I would never say that a border guard/airport guard/police officer/customs agent was guilty of racial profiling, simply that they were criminal profiling. When the profile of the criminal changes then so do the tactics used by said personnel.





			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> I would consider the Japanese internment camps to be over the line; seizure of property and being held without trial of Canadian citizens are grave breaches of personal liberty.
> 
> Unfortunately, the PC crowd has changed the highschool curriculum to portray WWII as the great wrongs done to Japanese-Canadians and the Jews; oh yeah, the Canadian military did a couple things in Europe, but we'll skip that.  Alas, I digress here.
> 
> As for racial profiling (this is the heart of the argument, is it not?), I constantly listened to people in my classes deride those cautious border guards doing it as "racists" and the such.  Look at pictures of the 9/11 bombers.  Look at the pictures of the FBI's most wanted terrorists.



It is the very same people in your classes that will one day be re-writing history books to say that we were wrong in the measures we took to prevent 9/11 from happening again.

I have never defended the "profiled", I think that you have to put up with a bit of it just as I would have to submit were there to be a white, five foot something, hundred and something, brown haired such and such criminal on the loose. Maybe we should re-read the post entitled I AM SORRY, maybe that should be e-mailed to the bleeding hearts. Again, I am not attacking the measures that are taken to protect us, I am glad they are there, just wondering how far it will go.

Cheers


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## jswift872 (18 Jul 2004)

see, i understand the American way of thinking, all of the hijackers on sept. 11 were Muslim and as the old saying goes..."if it ain't broke don't fix it", in this case, you DO have to fix it, because something IS broke.

well obviously when a group of people hate your country so much as to kill thousands of people in a stupid way...you HAVE to do something about it...
'


IMO


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## winchable (19 Jul 2004)

I am a young Muslim/Arab male between the ages of 15 and 45 and I can say if I saw any group of people behaving that way on a flight (nodding, hand signals) I'd be nervous. The fact that they were Arab (The next assumption for most would be that they were also Muslim) would not register well with the general American population which has, understandably, been on their toes for the last 3 years.

So I would say to these men, whom I find myself connected to by history, race and culture, if you are innocent (after rereading the article over and over again I begin to question) why must you behave in such a way??
Why, when you know that the largest most powerful country in the world is scared of you to a pointwhere they may begin to behave like a cornered animal, do you perpetuate stereotype and behave EXACTLY HOW THEY EXPECT YOU TO!!!!!

It doesn't mean you have to bend over and submit to their rule, it doesn't mean you have to drop your Qu'ran and thump a bible, it just means you have to stop behaving how they want you to. These men did this, they behaved how Country Joe expects us to behave.

Some of us will cry (I, myself, have been guilty of this) "If a white christian did that they woudn't have worried" Well you're right to a certain extent, but what do you expect? People aren't particularly trusting in nature, and it so happens that a few assholes put the Majority of us in a situation where we are having our civil rights questioned.

Anyway...yes folks that's called a tangent, but my soapbox was getting dusty.


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## karpovage (19 Jul 2004)

Che, good post. Right to the point. I agree.


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## Infanteer (19 Jul 2004)

Good post Che.

Like I said earlier "but if I were on a flight and fourteen characters of any background were doing something suspicious...."   I think the REAL fact of the matter is that you had 14 people doing something quite alarming on a flight.   It should have, and probably was, dealt with in the proper way (although there are other ways that may have been effective, as I armchair quarterbacked about earlier).

Due to the fact that these men were Arab, we are automatically triggered into assuming that it is a terrorist plot to destroy Western civilization.   While that may be playing into paranoia or fear (which may or may not have reasonable grounds), it doesn't necessarily make people racists.   As well, it doesn't excuse the 14 gentlemen from the fact that they were acting in a matter to arouse the fears of the other passengers, and they should have knew that.


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## winchable (19 Jul 2004)

I've been doing a lecture series at my local mosque every Friday for the youth on being accountable for their actions, just working on some new material. I will be using this example this coming Friday actually.


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## Infanteer (19 Jul 2004)

Now there is a true man of Faith.  Instead of railing against perceived injustices caused by other people, you choose to work to educate and better the lives of your kinsmen.  You are to be commended as a Muslim and a Canadian.


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## Spr.Earl (19 Jul 2004)

Che said:
			
		

> I've been doing a lecture series at my local mosque every Friday for the youth on being accountable for their actions, just working on some new material. I will be using this example this coming Friday actually.



Good for you Che,nice to hear it. 
There are bad in every Culture,but the more the good people educate their own and other's,the less chance of the present happening in the future.


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## 1feral1 (19 Jul 2004)

Good on ya     Malik    ! 

If you were closer to the prairies, we'd aready have done a few pub crawls. 

Cheers,

Wes


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## clasper (23 Jul 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> "but if I were on a flight and fourteen characters of any background were doing something suspicious...."



Earlier this week, I was on a flight from Atyrau, Kazakhstan to Amsterdam.  The flight was almost entirely filled with oilfield workers, most of them going on days off.  With the exception of the Syrian nationalities, the people on this flight exhibited very similar behaviour to that described by the woman in the article.  Some of them congregated in small groups in front of the washrooms to converse during the long flight.  Some were in and out of the washrooms quite frequently as they drank themselves silly after spending four weeks in a dry camp.  Some exchanged knowing smiles and thumbs up with their buddies (yeah, we're gettin' loaded tonight!)  No one was alarmed, because behaviour like this is quite normal on flights filled with oilfield trash (and I'm sure scott1nsh can back me up on that one).  To an outsider though, this behaviour may seem a little odd, but not particularly threatening.  However, if a dozen or so individuals fit into a stereotype that plays on someone's paranoia, people can be alarmed pretty quickly.

I'm not saying the individuals in question weren't doing anything suspicious, but I'm dubious about the objectivity of the witness, and her imagination may be getting the better of her judgement.  There are pockets of paranoia all over the place, and some Americans have done some pretty strange things post 9/11.  When I was living in southern Louisiana, a good friend of mine got beat up in a bar for the sole offence of being from Afghanistan.  (The sad part is that he's Pakistani, but the Cajun rednecks who did it weren't about to split geographic hairs.)  

The article paints a vivid picture of the author's perceptions, but I have a hard time accepting her interpretation as a true recounting of events.


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## Danjanou (23 Jul 2004)

Yeah paranoia can be a funny thing. I remember last year during the SARS epidemic. If you based all your info off a couple of other forums based in the states I lurk at, it would seem we had carts moving up and down Yonge St full of corpses with someone in front with a bell calling â Å“bring out your dead.â ?

A co-worker was in Mexico at the time at a resort, and she and her husband were chatting with another couple at the resort bar. When it came up that they were from Toronto, several American tourists actually rapidly moved away from them, go figure.

As to the individuals in the original tale. I'm not sure had i been on the flight it probably would have set off my â Å“spidey sensesâ ? too, but as Clasper points out it could also have been easily explained away.


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## Scott (23 Jul 2004)

Danjanou, your post about paranoia relating to the SARS epidemic got me. I was in Cranbrook for the Lamb Creek Fire last August/September, while we were there a "respiratory illness" swept through the forestry line camp. Because of the paranoia surrounding SARS some of the firefighters were quarantined. I had forgotten my feelings about that until just now and through that experience I can see a bit more clearly how someone may over react when it comes to a bunch of Muslim/Arab males. I know it's not the same but the part about paranoia is relative. 

Thing is I do not consider myself a very paranoid person, I just let things ebb and flow. But I know I was taking precautions last summer while I was in Cranberry. Guess it can affect us all. And isn't that the true definition of terrorism? Not with SEARS, but when the sight of a dozen or so Muslim/Arab males moving about can strike fear into someone then I think that they have accomplished exactly what they want. They want us thinking about the "what ifs"

Just thoughts

Cheers


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## Danjanou (23 Jul 2004)

Scott,

It's all perception. Family and friends outside of Toronto we're calling to make sure we (wife and I) were ok. Funny I was actually involved with working with some SARS victims through my work, albeit at arms length, and because I was being briefed on the real situation as opposed to the rumour mill I wasn't really concerned.


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## Scott (23 Jul 2004)

That makes all the difference in the world, perception, I mean.


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## muskrat89 (27 Jul 2004)

I will try and confirm, but now it is coming out that all of these guys were travelling on expired visas, but were let go anyway (so as not to cause an "incident")    :


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## Michael Dorosh (29 Jul 2004)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> I will try and confirm, but now it is coming out that all of these guys were travelling on expired visas, but were let go anyway (so as not to cause an "incident")    :



If you were a terrorist bent on doing dry runs on aircraft - would you draw attention to yourself with en expired visa or by travelling in large groups and acting quote "weird" unquote?

Seems like much ado about nothing to me, but who knows.


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## muskrat89 (29 Jul 2004)

My point is with all of the "re-vamped" security measures, post-9/11 ... nobody found with an expired Visa should just be "let go", whether they were acting weird or not


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## Michael Dorosh (29 Jul 2004)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> My point is with all of the "re-vamped" security measures, post-9/11 ... nobody found with an expired Visa should just be "let go", whether they were acting weird or not



Check the article at snopes.com - an expired visa is nothing unusual.   The press simply ran with this detail not knowing its importance.


                              Much has been made of the discovery that the Syrian musicians were supposedly
                              traveling on "expired visas." This claim stems from a misunderstanding of what
                              the expiry date on a U.S. visa signifies. 

                              Once the foreign traveler is in the U.S., the expiry date of his visa becomes
                              unimportant â â€ all that matters is the exit date listed on that person's I-94, a card
                              he carries with his passport while in the U.S. While it is true that an expired visa
                              cannot be used to re-enter the U.S. (its holder must reapply or seek an
                              extension), there is nothing wrong in and of itself with being in the U.S. past the
                              expiry date listed on one's visa.


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