# Changes to Clothing Online point system



## Occam (9 Apr 2010)

Sneaky.     rly:

So much for using those points before they expired.

----------------------

CANFORGEN 077/10 ADM MAT 03/10 *301346Z MAR 10*
*CHANGES TO CLOTHING ONLINE POINT SYSTEM*
UNCLASSIFIED

IN ORDER TO IMPROVE THE MANAGEMENT OF CLOTHING ONLINE AND UTILIZE DEPARTMENTAL FINANCIAL RESOURCES EFFICIENTLY. THE ANNUAL ALLOCATION OF POINTS FOR THE CLOTHING ONLINE SYSTEM WILL BE ADJUSTED *1 APRIL 10* AS FOLLOWS *TIER 1 (DEU) MEMBERS REDUCED FROM 600 TO 500 POINTS OF WHICH 200 WILL BE ALLOCATED 1 APRIL AND THE RESIDUAL 300 ALLOCATED 1 OCTOBER.* TIER 2 MEMBERS WILL REMAIN AT 200 POINTS. 

*THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF POINTS THAT CAN BE CARRIED FORWARD INTO THE NEXT FISCAL YEAR WILL BE 300. * 

THE MAXIMUM ANNUAL ORDER QUANTITIES FOR SOME CLOTHING ITEMS HAVE BEEN REDUCED AND OTHERS WILL HAVE A MINIMUM DURATION BEFORE REORDERING IS PERMITTED. REQUESTS FOR EXCEPTIONS SHOULD BE MADE TO DSSPM 2-C7 (Name removed). 

ARTICLES EXPLAINING THESE INITIATIVES WILL BE PUBLISHED IN BASE WING NEWSPAPERS AND THE MAPLE LEAF.


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## danchapps (9 Apr 2010)

It would be nice if they expanded the program to encompass the issuing of green t-shirts and the sock system instead of us having to wait for our annual entitlement through clothing stores.


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## PuckChaser (9 Apr 2010)

T-Shirts, boxers and socks should all be in that system.... I get lucky once and a while and find the day when they get Medium boxers in stock, every other time theres nothing on the shelves. You'd think the system would order MORE of a popular size.


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

Socks are in the system but they are the rough dress-type black socks not the softer polypro (?) sock system ones that are actually comfortable.

Found that out the hard way when 10 pairs of uncomfortable scratchy socks shows up at my door.


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## 1feral1 (9 Apr 2010)

Whatever happened to those old 'socks wool, grey'?

I still have heaps here, wear them the odd time here in th house during winter, some are still new and unworn.

OWDU


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## SeanNewman (9 Apr 2010)

There are two different grey wool socks in my inventory.

The first is the regular thickness general purpose sock that used to be the standard issue, but the grey socks now (that have a colour band at the top to show the size) are incredibly thick and only for winter warfare.

The general purpose issue sock now is med weight green in Canada and a thinner tan one overseas.

It's actually called the "sock system" and if used properly works out pretty well to keep you at the right temperature and sans blisters.


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## my72jeep (9 Apr 2010)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Whatever happened to those old 'socks wool, grey'?
> 
> I still have heaps here, wear them the odd time here in th house during winter, some are still new and unworn.
> 
> OWDU



whats your size Wes I'll send you a care pack of new grey wool ones?


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## George Wallace (9 Apr 2010)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> whats your size Wes I'll send you a care pack of new grey wool ones?



I think you have it backwards.  Wes may be able to send you the care package.   ;D


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## my72jeep (9 Apr 2010)

I work with Cadets we still issue them. have lots.


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## armyvern (10 Apr 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> Sneaky.     rly:
> 
> So much for using those points before they expired.
> 
> ...



Did anyone except me also notice that Logistik-Unicorp shut down their website on 30 March? A few of us here on course tried to login to "use" our points prior to their midnight 31 March expiration ... only to receive the following:

"Our site will be down from 30 March until 1200hrs 01 April in order to perform points-maintenance".

What the fuck? So we couldn't even login to use our points before they expired. And weren't able to get back in to Logisitik until AFTER they had expired.

THAT message above SHOULD have been cut and released well before Logisitik was authorized to close down their site to CF members seeking to use their points. But, it seems, someone missed the boat and so each and every individual in the CF who tried to login to use their points on 30 and 31 March ... got fucked out of them even though they do not "expire until midnight 31 March".

And no, Base Supply was not aware in advance that this was going to occur (especially that Logisitik would lock everyone out on 30 March vice midnight on the 31st) so that they could pass it on to individuals and Units.

I know this because I have the print screens of the "Sorry, we're closed from today (30 Mar) until 1200hrs 01 Apr so you can't use your points" message from Logistik printscreened and copied into the email that I sent to 3 Base Supply Clothing sections across the country asking if they had been advised in advance that Logistik wa going to lock people out of their accounts a day and a half before their points expired. All three received sweet fuck all in the way of notification in advance of the actual lockout occuring.

So, sneaky, yes!! But, cutting a message about it the very same day when members were *already locked out of their accounts* and thus unable to use is just plain evil.

And, I didn't login "to use my points" on the 30th because of this message  --- I logged in to use my points on the 30th to use my points because that's when I do it every year ... except this year it seems.

That's akin to the TB taking away your budget on the 30th at lunch even though your budget doesn't expire until midnight on the 31st without warning. Bullshit.

So, quite contrary to what the CANFORGEN states: "THE ANNUAL ALLOCATION OF POINTS FOR THE CLOTHING ONLINE SYSTEM WILL BE ADJUSTED *1 APRIL 10* ..."

That adjustment actually occured effective 30 March in Old FY ... because we were all "locked out" of Logisik on 30 March. I hope the bean counters take into account BOTH fiscal years that they affected when sending up their "bean counts" to higher.  :


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## Armymedic (10 Apr 2010)

Grey socks, as per the type OD is requesting are still on my personal clothing profile. And hence still part of the issue for dress clothing, but not part of operational clothing given at clothing stores.

Not to specifically saying Petamocto is wrong, but perhaps he is mistaken.


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## Armymedic (10 Apr 2010)

I guess there must be some logical reason to limit everyone to a certian level.

For me its max 500 points. A quick calculation gives me the ability to purchase through points:
2 LS shirts
2 SS shirts,
2 pair pants
1 SD coat (tunic)
1 pr boots
1 beret
with over 100 points left over to get belt, socks etc.


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## Occam (10 Apr 2010)

SFB said:
			
		

> Grey socks, as per the type OD is requesting are still on my personal clothing profile. And hence still part of the issue for dress clothing, but not part of operational clothing given at clothing stores.
> 
> Not to specifically saying Petamocto is wrong, but perhaps he is mistaken.



The "sock system" socks and the Clothing Online socks appear to be different (aside from the colour band, that is).

I have a new pair of the "sock system" grey socks (c/w blue band at the top to indicate size range) in front of me, NSN 8415-21-920-8206.  That NSN does not match any of the NSNs for the plain old grey socks (minus colour band indicating size range) on the Clothing Online site.  They could very well be made by the same Norwegian (the sock system grey socks are made by Safa Samnanger Fabrikker of Norway), but that isn't apparent from the Clothing Online site.


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## Occam (10 Apr 2010)

SFB said:
			
		

> I guess there must be some logical reason to limit everyone to a certian level.
> 
> For me its max 500 points. A quick calculation gives me the ability to purchase through points:



The limit to carry over is 300 points.  That, added to your 2010/2011 points awarded (200) equals the 500 in your current balance.  It's likely you had more than 300 points in your balance prior to 1 Apr, but they've gone into the bit bucket.


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## Occam (10 Apr 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That adjustment actually occured effective 30 March in Old FY ... because we were all "locked out" of Logisik on 30 March. I hope the bean counters take into account BOTH fiscal years that they affected when sending up their "bean counts" to higher.  :



I'm of a mind to raise a stink about it next week.  I've been holding off on getting new uniforms as I've been dealing with knocking off some weight gained from quitting smoking a couple of years ago, and have been reluctant to get anything unless it's been absolutely required for a parade.  So, when I reach target shortly, I'm pretty sure I'll need a new gabardine, new H/W and L/W tunics and pants, and new L/S and S/S shirts.  That'll wipe out every single one of those 500 points.

What's the best way to complain about the burned points, short of a grievance?


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## gaspasser (10 Apr 2010)

IMHO, I think the system is totally idiotic!  I don't know which bloody tier I'm in, nor do I care.  I only wear my full DEU perhaps twice or thrice a year (|and not even long enough to need dry cleaning of the tunic and I can launder the shirts;  and I get tons of points and order only socks and piddly stuff.  I was even nice enough one day to use my numerous points to help out the civilian base band to just get my points down.  Then they gave me more, now they're taking them away and limiting those points to 300??  

Gads, bring back the CUA or let us buy CADPAT online--which everyone seems to go thru about two pair a year..
                                      OR 


Let us use the points at CPGear~~~~~

my  :2c:
iper:


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## jollyjacktar (10 Apr 2010)

Is it me, or are the bean counting bastards in Ottawa really going the extra mile to screw and f**K the CF/PS every which way they can, from multiple directions at a belt fed pace as of late?  ie.  the plans to charge arms/legs for parking, cutting PLD where they can, buggering with the points so they won't be on the hook for as much clothing...... while at the same time they waste money on shit like the CNC pins we are stuck with for the year.  Every time I look up they seem to be clawing back here and booting us in the groin there every chance they get.  Bastards.  Christ! they don't even have the grace to have decent long johns available to the Navy on-line.... :rage:


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## SeanNewman (10 Apr 2010)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Every time I look up they seem to be clawing back here and booting us in the groin there every chance they get.  Bastards.



You mean other than the pay raises, right?


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## jollyjacktar (10 Apr 2010)

Yes, for most of us.  Other than the pay raises.  But if you look to some of the folks, Ottawa for example, the pay raise was negated by the drop in PLD.


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## SeanNewman (10 Apr 2010)

Not saying that you're wrong in terms of some things being cut, but overall it's hard to complain about how much money we make in the CF.

Pretty much the highest out of any western nation, really...and if you deploy it's a gold mine.


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## Wynne (11 Apr 2010)

I must say, it's great to get the message about this AFTER my account was locked.  I wish I could have spent my darn points, I needed DEU's..but my papers weren't in to switch me from army to air.  So super sneaky....


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## armyvern (11 Apr 2010)

Wynne said:
			
		

> I must say, it's great to get the message about this AFTER my account was locked.  I wish I could have spent my darn points, I needed DEU's..but my papers weren't in to switch me from army to air.  So super sneaky....



Yep, nice eh??

Everyone was locked out a full day & a half before their points expired ... and a full day & a half before this new policy "supposedly" was going to take effect on 01 April IAW CANFORGEN. That's not on.


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## Towards_the_gap (11 Apr 2010)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Is it me, or are the bean counting bastards in Ottawa really going the extra mile to screw and f**K the CF/PS every which way they can, from multiple directions at a belt fed pace as of late?  ie.  the plans to charge arms/legs for parking, cutting PLD where they can, buggering with the points so they won't be on the hook for as much clothing...... while at the same time they waste money on shit like the CNC pins we are stuck with for the year.  Every time I look up they seem to be clawing back here and booting us in the groin there every chance they get.  Bastards.  Christ! they don't even have the grace to have decent long johns available to the Navy on-line.... :rage:



Spend a year in the British Army and then try and complain like that.....

I still find it boggling the amount of ways to get rich in the CF, be it a long career course out of province, an IR posting, or hell, even getting posted from say Edmonton to Pet will put you up tens of thousands or so...And like petamocto says, nevermind the money you get on tour...

Losing points for a uniform  I wear once a year is not an issue.   *edited to correct bum spelling


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## armyvern (11 Apr 2010)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Losing points for a uniform  I wear once a year is not an issue.   *edited to correct bum spelling



That's all well and good ... unless you're posted to a Unit that wears them everyday.


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## Gunner98 (11 Apr 2010)

Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> Spend a year in the British Army and then try and complain like that.....
> 
> I still find it boggling the amount of ways to get rich in the CF, be it a long career course out of province, an IR posting, or hell, even getting posted from say Edmonton to Pet will put you up tens of thousands or so...And like petamocto says, nevermind the money you get on tour...



I would never classify a member of the CF as *rich* and going on tour as a *"gold mine"*.   Let's say that we are adequately compensated and our entitlements are met in accordance with what civilian public servants receive who are also subject to the same Treasury Board regulations.  Just ask someone who has served more than 15 years if this was always the case!  The tour "gold mine" is more like a coal mine - you may or may not survive the venture, if you do it is hardly like winning the lottery it is more like winning a bingo jackpot.  

As for the clothing online - IMHO 500 points per year is sufficient and like annual leave - use it or lose it seems fair.  And will we ever get a summer weight Army uniform?  The cost of one-year's worth combat underwear and socks would pretty much equal *at least the cost of materials* of a tunic and  two pairs of pants.  I know I would be happy to wear my undies for an extra year to avoid another summer in wool trousers, anyone else?  Perhaps you *rich* guys already have your uniforms tailored at Savile Row.


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## SeanNewman (11 Apr 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That's all well and good ... unless you're posted to a Unit that wears them everyday.



It's still insignificant in the big picture.  What other job can you have basically no education and be making $50k+ per year within a couple years of joining?

I know things were not always this way, and in the 80s and 90s the CF was underpaid but that's far from true now.

In principle of course you should have your uniform paid for and replaced often, and you shouldn't lose a ton of money on a posting (not immediately but over time), but we make a heckuva lot of money.

At the end of the day everyone could complain about something financially.  I got posted from an LDA unit in Ontario to a non-LDA unit in NB where I pay far more property and income tax for less service, but due to how much the CF pays me it's hard to complain with my new house filled with new things and a new(ish) car.


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## Gunner98 (11 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> It's still insignificant in the big picture.  What other job can you have basically no education and be making $50k+ per year within a couple years of joining?



Let's see maybe a prison guard, fireman, policeman, plumber or a welder or just about any tradesman who have the same training levels in or out of uniform (unless of course you classify the Police foundations diploma as being rocket science).


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## SeanNewman (11 Apr 2010)

Simian,

All of those jobs you posted work far more hours and arguably harder if you average out how much they work in an hour.

Yes soldiers do some extremely grueling things that push the limits of 100% effort, but we also sit in a lot of lectures do routine tasks that take 10% effort.

A tradesman (if he actually wants to make money) has to do a lot of 12-hour days at 70% effort.

Back on topic here, soldiers are not underpaid and that is at the heart of what I am writing.


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## Gunner98 (11 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Back on topic here, soldiers are not underpaid and that is at the heart of what I am writing.



I concur - soldiers are not underpaid but they are hardly "rich" and making a "gold mine".  As for back on topic, I was following you and others into a silly rabbit hole to WTF-land!  I take it you have no university-aged children where you are shelling out $20K/year and they can't get student loans because you are so "not underpaid"!

Yes those firemen sitting around the firehouse and those policemen sitting in their cruisers or donut shops - work so much harder than we do.


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## Towards_the_gap (11 Apr 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That's all well and good ... unless you're posted to a Unit that wears them everyday.



Good point. However, and I ask out of ignorance, having worn DEU's oh maybe 4 times in total, how often do the shirts/pants/tunic really need replacing? Is the points balance insufficient? I ask because the existing system seems to do the trick, and it is a stretch to say that the treasury is screwing us over again.

To Simian Turner - I guess 'rich' was a bad choice of words. But there is a reason you see all those $40-60,000 trucks driving around any major base.


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## SeanNewman (11 Apr 2010)

Simian,

You did not read my post correctly.  When I mentioned fire and police it was to say that their lives are probably in danger as much as ours.

Yes they sit around doing nothing sometimes, as do a whoooooooole lot of people in the CF.

I am surrounded by people who do have university-aged children (most of them CFRs who were MWOs and are now Capts), and most of them have their houses almost paid off and aren't struggling to put their kids through school.

By the time you get to the point of having university-aged kids, odds are you're close to a MWO or Major and making $80,000+ per year, and have gone on a lot of tours to pay off $25,000 chunks of your mortgage in one shot.

If you are in the CF and poor right now it is due to your terrible financial planning, not because you are underpaid.


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## Franko (11 Apr 2010)

The topic here is the Clothing On-Line changes....not pay or how much some troops just "sit around doing nothing".

_*Back on topic.*_

*The Army.ca Staff*


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## Occam (11 Apr 2010)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> As for the clothing online - IMHO 500 points per year is sufficient and like annual leave - use it or lose it seems fair.  And will we ever get a summer weight Army uniform?  The cost of one-year's worth combat underwear and socks would pretty much equal *at least the cost of materials* of a tunic and  two pairs of pants.  I know I would be happy to wear my undies for an extra year to avoid another summer in wool trousers, anyone else?  Perhaps you *rich* guys already have your uniforms tailored at Savile Row.



500 points isn't enough if you had to replace everything like gabardine, tunics and pants (for the AF types leading charmed lives with summer weight and winter weight uniforms  ), sweater, raincoat and shirts.

It's fine and dandy to say you're going to implement a regulation saying you can only carry over 300 points from now on.  It's quite another to give first wind of the new regulation on 30 Mar (the day before the last day of the FY), but lock everyone out of their account until the rules are applied to your points balance on 1 Apr and all those points get flushed into the bit bucket.

If you haven't logged into Clothing Online lately, you're now greeted with this:

The points allotted to you through Clothing Online are the property of DND and are provided to you for the sole purpose of acquiring essential military clothing to perform your duties in support of the Canadian Forces and are not for personal use.

By clicking "I Agree" you recognize that all points belong to DND and that any items acquired with your points are for your professional duties and not for personal use.
​
Geez, did someone notice a severe rise in the number of people wearing the rubber overboots with civvies, or something?   :


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## armyvern (11 Apr 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> 500 points isn't enough if you had to replace everything like gabardine, tunics and pants (for the AF types leading charmed lives with summer weight and winter weight uniforms  ), sweater, raincoat and shirts.
> 
> It's fine and dandy to say you're going to implement a regulation saying you can only carry over 300 points from now on.  It's quite another to give first wind of the new regulation on 30 Mar (the day before the last day of the FY), but lock everyone out of their account until the rules are applied to your points balance on 1 Apr and all those points get flushed into the bit bucket.
> 
> ...



Your post, I can agree with. I have no issues with the new "move to remove unused points at end FY". If people have points on balance, they obviously didn't need to replace everything in the way of DEU clothing that FY. Thus, they didn't require their points.

My issue is, as stated previously, that we were frozen OUT of our accounts without notice and a full day and a half before our points expired. The message, to me, is secondary - although it was cut after we had already been locked out - the "new policy" to take away our points was not the reason that I logged in order to "friviously spend them" in the first place.

I logged in on 30 March, as I do every year, to order my stuff. This year, on 30 March, I was forecasted to be posted to a dress-of-the-day DEU wearing Unit. Ergo, never having been posted to one of those places before, I wanted to take advantage of my points to order some extra shirts and pants ... which would certainly have been required at the new place of duty - being that I currently only have 2 X pants, 1 X skirt, 1 X tunic. The new place of duty would certainly require that I posess more of those as I'd be wearing them to work daily. I was unable to do so though --- being locked out.

Luckily for me, it looks like I'm now off to CFJSR ... not a DEU wearing Unit; I'm good with that.

You do not cut a message announcing a "new policy that will be effective 01 Apr 2010" after you have already locked people out of their accounts on the 30th March and effectively making the new policy effective even _before_ the message was cut. That's NOT good-faith.


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## PuckChaser (11 Apr 2010)

Anyone else notice the shipping got worse? Up to 9 days now within Canada... I remember my last orders showed up in 2-3 days tops.

Also can't get PT gear anymore, have to use your environmental t-shirts, which you only get 5 a year. PT 5 days a week, plus a fresh shirt for combats that day means I either need 10 t-shirts, or I'm doing laundry every 2nd day. Its great these changes get carefully hidden after you log in, and never announced.


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## armyvern (11 Apr 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Anyone else notice the shipping got worse? Up to 9 days now within Canada... I remember my last orders showed up in 2-3 days tops.
> 
> Also can't get PT gear anymore, have to use your environmental t-shirts, which you only get 5 a year. PT 5 days a week, plus a fresh shirt for combats that day means I either need 10 t-shirts, or I'm doing laundry every 2nd day. Its great these changes get carefully hidden after you log in, and never announced.



You're entitled to 5 t-shirts every year. Are you telling me that you actually wear out 5 t-shirts every year? That you only have 5 t-shirts??

As an aside: Logistik-Unicorp provides DEU uniform items for wear, not operational clothing. There seems to be some in this thread wondering why they can't get "op" clothing from them. Quite simply - they are not the manufacturer of those op items ... why would a civilian company want to stock and supply another suppliers items on their shelves (thus paying for the warehousing & overhead costs) to ship to the troops??


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## SupersonicMax (12 Apr 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Also can't get PT gear anymore, have to use your environmental t-shirts, which you only get 5 a year. PT 5 days a week, plus a fresh shirt for combats that day means I either need 10 t-shirts, or I'm doing laundry every 2nd day. Its great these changes get carefully hidden after you log in, and never announced.



Do you really wear your PT gear when you do PT?!



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> You're entitled to 5 t-shirts every year. Are you telling me that you actually wear out 5 t-shirts every year? That you only have 5 t-shirts??



I don't know about him, but I sure do.  And they are always short on T-Shirts everything.


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## armyvern (12 Apr 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Do you really wear your PT gear when you do PT?!
> 
> I don't know about him, but I sure do.  And they are always short on T-Shirts everything.



Well, that's because Air Force t-shirts are inferior to Army t-shirts.  >

Perhaps it's something to do with the anti-stat??   ???


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## daftandbarmy (12 Apr 2010)

I just used it to order some socks and should have a nice little package in the mail by this time next week. My account had 500 points in it, and there's no way I could use up another 500 this year on DEU stuff... unless I use my overcoat for breakdancing wear of course.

I think this system is the cat's derriere, and we should extend it to almost every other kind of clothing we use. But then again, I also think that the army pitched into a period of decline when we did away with puttees.  ;D


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## armyvern (12 Apr 2010)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I think this system is the cat's derriere, and we should extend it to almost every other kind of clothing we use. But then again, I also think that the army pitched into a period of decline when we did away with puttees.  ;D



Edward still has his on his docs; perhaps you can sweet talk him out of them?


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## 1feral1 (12 Apr 2010)

All, I've read the entire thread, and just wanted to say feel lucky with what you have, here you don't get anything for free, aside from initial issue for shirts, trousers, socks, ties etc, we must pay for everything, including dog tags. A uniform allowance of $500/yr is added on to ones pay (regular army - reserves get SFA), and it's taxed, but anything one buys is a tax deduction.

Aside from the Reserves entirely tax free pay, a service allowance (not uniform) of about $11/pde night, and a petrol allowance of about $10/per pde (this can vary) is added.

OWDU


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## SeanNewman (12 Apr 2010)

OWDU,

Until a few years ago we were given money as well, whatever it was a month I don't remember but I don't think it was quite $500/yr.

This new points system is all new, but what makes it confusing is that it is only for some clothing items (the dress-type stuff), everything else you still need to go to the QM to get.


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## armyvern (12 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> OWDU,
> 
> Until a few years ago we were given money as well, whatever it was a month I don't remember but I don't think it was quite $500/yr.
> 
> This new points system is all new, but what makes it confusing is that it is only for some clothing items (the dress-type stuff), everything else you still need to go to the QM to get.



When the CUA was revoked circa 2004, I believe that the going rate was $18 (and change) for the gents and $26 (and change) for the ladies. CUA was a Treasury Board Allowance that we received to "maintain and upkeep permanent kit allotment uniforms". Thus, it was for maintaining/replacing DEU as well.

The reason that we changed from a CUA to points was, quite simply, because troops were not using the allowance as intended. They spent it on other things and some would show up to parades in DEU 5 times to small because they just didn't bother to replace it.

Of the millions of dollars paid out to us each year in CUA --- roughly only 1.5 million dollars per year was ever used by the people getting that allowance to replace and maintain their DEU. DEU was only available for purchase via Clothing Stores at that time. 

There's a thread on this site somewhere with the actual Clothing Stores Cash Sles expenditures totals vice "CUA paid out" figures in it --- probably started circa 2005 --- when troops were pissed that they were "losing money off their pay every month" because of the "new policy". Unfortunately, when TB asks for validation and verification that an Allowance from the taxpayer is still justified/warranted and the financial data and figures clearly show that only a small percentage of what was paid out in that allowance was "used as intended" --- we lose it. Like all allowances: _what the hand giveth, the hand can also taketh away._


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## dapaterson (12 Apr 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Like all allowances: _what the hand giveth, the hand can also taketh away._



And, as always, if you don't like it, talk to the hand.


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## SeanNewman (12 Apr 2010)

Vern,

None of the points you made are under debate (at least I don't think so), and I can certainly vouch for all of them.  Nobody I knew was spending that money on DEUs; it was just a slush fund that got merged with the rest of their pay.  And yes, everyone griped when we lost it.

Now though, I think the program would get a lot more support if you could just get all clothing on it.  While I make no attempt to speak for the CF, a lot of the conversations I have overheard on the matter seem to suggest that direction.

I'm sure at some point someone has made the decision that there can only be X amount of combats in the world, though...lest they end up on Ebay sold to paintballers.


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## PuckChaser (12 Apr 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Do you really wear your PT gear when you do PT?!
> 
> I don't know about him, but I sure do.  And they are always short on T-Shirts everything.



My unit's approved PT gear is grey t-shirt and grey/blue shorts, so I was using the free one's from Logistik Unicorp.


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## armyvern (12 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Vern,
> 
> None of the points you made are under debate (at least I don't think so), and I can certainly vouch for all of them.  Nobody I knew was spending that money on DEUs; it was just a slush fund that got merged with the rest of their pay.  And yes, everyone griped when we lost it.
> 
> ...



During our Army Op Clothing conferences and many WGs ... we discussed moving op clothing to a direct delivery as well; in the earlier thread that I referred to, there were problems with that in that this kit is "operational" and thus controlled IAW with CTAT, ITAR and TB guidelines and directives. There would be no way to control what a troop did with his "old op stuff" when his new stuff arrived ... other than that it would still be on his docs until he physically returned it to Clothing Stores for proper disposal processing; the consensus was: Well, since he's still got to come to clothing anyway to dispose of his old stuff, you may as well continue to stock his replacement kit at that level. 1 trip, no waiting.

The reason that op clothing isn't "stocked or issued" by Logistik is also referred to in this earlier post in this thread by me:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/93024/post-923079.html#msg923079

So, we'd have to pay someone else to do that for us (op kit is manufactured and supplied to the CF by a great many contractors and suppliers unlike our DEU clothing) ... why pay another place to stock and ship on behalf of all those op contractors & suppliers, when the troop is still going to have to come in to clothing stores to properly dispose of the op kit that he is replacing?

That, in a nutshell, is the reason as to "why" op clothing & equipment is not "online".


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## SeanNewman (12 Apr 2010)

I appreciate the answer, thank you.

To offer you some insight on things from the other side of the fence, the *perception* is that every time we make our way over there we will be faced with one of a few things:

1. A ridiculously long line because of some course/deployment;

2. We somehow manage to show up the one morning/afternoon per week that there's a sign on the door that reads "Closed for regularly scheduled ___________ (re-stocking, inventory, whatever) as per the basewide e-mail."

3. Being out of the size anyway (or wait in line the whole time to find out not entitled to it anyway).

Not in any way saying that this is the ground truth, just the perception.  I've been to clothing perhaps 100 times in my life, and have personally had those happened to me many times each, but overall it's probably 75% success rate.


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## armyvern (12 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I appreciate the answer, thank you.
> 
> To offer you some insight on things from the other side of the fence, the *perception* is that every time we make our way over there we will be faced with one of a few things:
> 
> ...



1. Courses in Gagetown must submit a TSR requesting a "block-booked" appointment for their candidates. Otherwise, we'll have three 90 pers courses showing up all at once ... screwing up their course trg schedules. There is, however, always one counter pers dedicated to those who "walk-in" and are not part of the courses booked in. There should be a sign on the back of his screen (ie: facing you) that states "Walk-Ins Here" ... no need to wait in line behind the candidates, simply walk-up to the staff looking after the walk-ins. CSG Gagetown routinely process circa 1 million more transactions per year than any other location; they are extremely busy just due to the high op & trg tempo at that location - Home of the Army and all that.

2. Closed for "stocktaking" (that's only 2 weeks every third year in Gagetown). If they need to "close" due to unforeseen circumstances, they do cut base-wides. That happened only 4 times during my 3 years there ... and those were due to TF1-07 deployment requiring our full attention over a two day period, the unforecasted deployment of 4ESR to DART duties, the deployment of unforecasted deployment of 2RCR to Op Halo Haiti and another 2 day closure for Hurricane Katrina because we pulled every avail sleeping bag etc to package, load, transport and ship to new Orleans. We never closed for sports days etc. Their hours are 0800-1500hrs daily; their redemanding of stock and filing of paperwork etc happens from 1500-1600hrs; restocking of shelving with kit from the warehouse occurs before they open in the morning.  They are the only clothing stores in the country that is open "to customers" for such a large number of hours each and every day of the week. Folks suffering in Winnipeg can certainly attest to that. Given that CSG Gagetown also routinely goes through 2 tractor trailors full of kit a week at their location ... I think they're doing a pretty good job of it. Perhaps the "perception" would change out there if people realized that that CSG directly supports 8800 personnel and Units of all 3 enviornments as well as having to handle the full initial issue of all Army Op Clothing to all pers of zero trades, officers and all Army DEOs going through it's schools. There's a reason they are the largest Sup Coy in the nation ... and a reason why clothing stores there has 25 people working in it (there are some bases in Canada that don't even have as many Sup Techs posted there as clothing stores Gagetown has working there daily.) Just some "context". 

3. They do their best. Remember, you're at a location where there is a 100% inventory turn around each and every week. The depot run comes in to refill us on Thursday afternoon ... thus if we run out of your size on Thursday morning ... 100% every week. That's crazy busy. If the depot in Montreal were somehow located IN Gagetown - life would be grand indeed. But, there's only so much space ... Not sure if these replenishment figures hold now, being that they just moved into B10 where they have larger facilities to work with.

Front counter is 2563: I'll recommend to you what I recommend to everyone - call them first and let them know what you need and your size; they will tell you whether they have any in or not. They will give you an RDD if there's a nil stock occuring. They'll also tell you if it's a "good" time to come down. And, if you don't call first, and there's a course in-house just ask "Who's looking after the walk-ins" if you can't see the sign through the mass of candidates at all the other counters.

Vern


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## SeanNewman (12 Apr 2010)

Vern,

I almost feel bad now that you took so much time to reply to my response...because I didn't mention that my comments were based on my experiences in Petawawa.

Sorry!

In Gagetown there is only one thing...nay one _man_...who is everyone's nemesis.


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## SupersonicMax (12 Apr 2010)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> All, I've read the entire thread, and just wanted to say feel lucky with what you have, here you don't get anything for free, aside from initial issue for shirts, trousers, socks, ties etc, we must pay for everything, including dog tags. A uniform allowance of $500/yr is added on to ones pay (regular army - reserves get SFA), and it's taxed, but anything one buys is a tax deduction.



I don't think we have to feel lucky.  It's all part of the benefit package we get as CF members.  You are in a different military, on a different continent.  You can't compare.  

We are entitled to it, therefore we should get it if we ask for it.  If, one day, they decide to go with the "I give you 500$ a year and you buy what you need", then so be it, it'll be part of the pacakge then.  Till then, we are entitled to it and we don't have to feel lucky about getting it.


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## SeanNewman (12 Apr 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Till then, we are entitled to it and we don't have to feel lucky about getting it.



But can we still gripe about what we think we're entitled to but aren't getting?  Because that makes up about 90% of the conversations I hear at work.


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## 1feral1 (13 Apr 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I don't think we have to feel lucky.  It's all part of the benefit package we get as CF members.  You are in a different military, on a different continent.  You can't compare.
> 
> We are entitled to it, therefore we should get it if we ask for it.  If, one day, they decide to go with the "I give you 500$ a year and you buy what you need", then so be it, it'll be part of the pacakge then.  Till then, we are entitled to it and we don't have to feel lucky about getting it.



Ya, and free shipping too. They could charge you a handling fee.

Mate, we all have opinions, and I think its valid to share information for comparing how different countries Defence Forces handle this sort of thing. You telling me I CANNOT compare is BS. I've learned something for how Canada does it.

I think the Cdn system is a bonzer way of going about it, but would I rather get $500/yr, which is taxable income, less 30% to spend in the clothing store? No. I view your system superior. Much more user friendly w/on line svc, and it gets shipped right to your door.

So, in comparison to those who were around with the old CF system, which do you prefer, dealing with points/mail order, or the additioanl income for a uniform allowance?

If this system was adopted here, I would feel lucky, as I would be getting more bang for my buck.

OWDU


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## SeanNewman (13 Apr 2010)

I am all for learning how other people do things, because we get too fixated in our own worlds.

I'm in the Infantry School but the Armour School might have something to teach me.

I'm in the Army but the Air Force might have something to teach me.

I'm Canadian but an Australian might have something to teach me.

That is very different than implying that "just becauesy ou do something your way doesn't make it right for us".


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## SupersonicMax (13 Apr 2010)

OWDU:  My point is if you want to compare, you have to take into account everything: pay, medical benefits, retirement benefits, family benefits, allowances, leave, etc.  You can't say we are lucky just from this point, if you get something else that offsets that.

Personally, I would have prefered the 500$ a year.  I would be 2950$ richer today.  Since the introduction of the program, all I ordered is an extra wedge.


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## scas (13 Apr 2010)

But guys like me, and a few in our shop, we have to order a new beret every few months.


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## TN2IC (13 Apr 2010)

scas said:
			
		

> But guys like me, and a few in our shop, we have to order a new beret every few months.



One for work in the office/meeting.. one for in coveralls..  one for DEU's and one for the car..  ;D

MSE Op S.M.R.T.  ;D


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## CountDC (13 Apr 2010)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Personally, I would have prefered the 500$ a year.  I would be 2950$ richer today.  Since the introduction of the program, all I ordered is an extra wedge.



Which is why they switched to the points. 

I think the current system was a good move.  It would have been nice if they gave notice but figure they didn't in order to avoid the mad dash of people logging in to order things just for the sake of it.  Crappy deal for some but also understandable.  We tend to shoot ourselves.  CUA went because we didn't use it, points reduced and not allowed to carry over because they were not being used.  if we don't properly use the points we have now I have no doubt they will be cut even more.  What is really sad is that I still see people showing up to parade with uniforms that do not fit. If your uniform gets tight order a new one, if it gets loose order a new one.  There is no buy out for your points so stop saving them.


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## dapaterson (13 Apr 2010)

CountDC:

Which is why the dot COMs and Land Staff have abandonned DEU - it takes too much effort to press shirts, polish shoes, and keep the uniform up to snuff.  In a word, lazy.

Instead, they wear operational clothing, much more expensive to the Crown, and wear out CADPAT pants ass first, from being parked in a chair all the time.


Wouldn't it be nice to see NDHQ back in DEU - since Startop and the Land Staff, despite their illusions, are deskbound, not operational.

Or, barring that, ADM(Mat) should bill the dot Coms and Army for the NP pressure they create by wearing operational clothing all the time.  Because it's seen as free, they exploit it.


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## CountDC (13 Apr 2010)

yes - that is so much effort.  

But let's not forget the Navy members that have to wear CADPAT simply because they are posted to an Army unit even though they never or hardly go to the field.   How about CADPAT when needed not simply because I want to.


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## ekpiper (13 Apr 2010)

To be honest, from a financial point of view, the points system really does make sense.  This we, the CF expends only what is required by its members, and no more.  $500/yr x 90,000 CF members = $45 million, and while that isn't entirely saved, you can bet your bottom dollar that we go through significantly less than that using the points system.  That is money that can go along way towards much better purposes that lining our pockets.  That is of course assuming that the money is not just going back to the crown and is instead being put towards equipment and the like.  

---EDIT---

Just to be clear, the $500/yr was just a figure given above...I don't know how much the CUA was when it was eliminated, nor what it would have been after inflation, etc. today.


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## dapaterson (13 Apr 2010)

Funds for clothing are all part of the larger National Procurement (NP) budget; rest assured that ADM(Mat) does good things with surpluses in one part of the NP account, to address shortfalls in other places.


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## armyvern (13 Apr 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Funds for clothing are all part of the larger National Procurement (NP) budget; rest assured that ADM(Mat) does good things with surpluses in one part of the NP account, to address shortfalls in other places.



Absolutely. They have their "forecast" of points dollar value based upon members Logistik accounts each year. Due to the "early" Logistik lockout (30 March) ... I'm sure someone was scrambling to "expend" those "forecast to be expended but actually unused points" as actual dollars somewhere else worthy prior to midnight 31 March.


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## Gunner98 (13 Apr 2010)

ekpiper said:
			
		

> To be honest, from a financial point of view, the points system really does make sense.  This we, the CF expends only what is required by its members, and no more.  $500/yr x 90,000 CF members = $45 million, and while that isn't entirely saved, you can bet your bottom dollar that we go through significantly less than that using the points system.



Hold the bus...$18.xx X 12 = $216 x 60,000 (Reg Force) = $13 million

The Reservist did not receive CUA as their uniforms were provided.  Now they receive Logistik points, so your savings is even lower.


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## armyvern (13 Apr 2010)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Hold the bus...$18.xx X 12 = $216 x 60,000 (Reg Force) = $13 million
> 
> The Reservist did not receive CUA as their uniforms were provided.  Now they receive Logistik points, so your savings is even lower.



Get back off the bus.  

A great many reservists used to exchange their DEU annually just because 'they could exchange', free of "personal charge" as often as they wanted (& a great many exchanged their parts 'on behalf' of their RegF brethern). Sure, it was provided, but it also COST something to provide it to them "free" --- it certainly wasn't "cost-free" to the CF for me to exchange it for them. Their move to points (the ResF) also saves us millions per year because, like the RegF pers, most ResF pers no longer exchange their uniforms as often as they used to.


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## Gunner98 (13 Apr 2010)

Shoot, you kicked me off the bus unnecessarily... 

Regardless, 500 points does not equal $500 dollars as was indicated.  As I stated the savings is certainly lower than $45 million, unless you spent $32 million on Reservist DEUs?

Can I please get back on the bus! ???


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## armyvern (13 Apr 2010)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Shoot, you kicked me off the bus unnecessarily...
> 
> Regardless, 500 points does not equal $500 dollars as was indicated.  As I stated the savings is certainly lower than $45 million, unless you spent $32 million on Reservist DEUs?
> 
> Can I please get back on the bus! ???



1 Logistik point is equivelant to $1.00. That's how they implmented the system.

If, for example, the CF pays 18 bucks for your short sleeve shirt for me to order it and "issue" to you for initial issue, that same shirt costs the CF budget $18.00 each time you use your 18 points to order it yourself from Logistik. $1.00 each point used. The amount of points it 'costs' you (ie the CF) to order your shirt online is determined by the "actual dollar value" of that shirt cost on the budget.

Yep, we saved a FORTUNE going to points, let that not be understated.


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## daftandbarmy (13 Apr 2010)

When will they let us order a tank or something like that through this system? Now that's a change program I can get behind, or into. ;D


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## armyvern (13 Apr 2010)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> When will they let us order a tank or something like that through this system? Now that's a change program I can get behind, or into. ;D



I once had a firetruck on my docs, but I am _specialer_ than you!!  ;D

You can get off the SYB too!! Simian is waiting for you!!  >


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## gcclarke (14 Apr 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> yes - that is so much effort.
> 
> But let's not forget the Navy members that have to wear CADPAT simply because they are posted to an Army unit even though they never or hardly go to the field.   How about CADPAT when needed not simply because I want to.



Is that still going on? Sheesh, one would think a bloody CANFORGEN would be enough to fix things like that.


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## PMedMoe (14 Apr 2010)

From the Standing Orders of CFSU(O):



> 3.02 DRESS – GENERAL
> Ref: A-AD-265-000/AG-001
> 
> Dress policy for personnel on strength of NDHQ and CFSU(Ottawa) is set by the Commandant CFSU(Ottawa) in consultation with the different stakeholders and the VCDS.
> ...



Of course, if some of these people are from different units, their dress _may_ be different.


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## Sub Standard (14 Apr 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> 1 Logistik point is equivalent to $1.00. That's how they implemented the system.
> 
> If, for example, the CF pays 18 bucks for your short sleeve shirt for me to order it and "issue" to you for initial issue, that same shirt costs the CF budget $18.00 each time you use your 18 points to order it yourself from Logistik. $1.00 each point used. The amount of points it 'costs' you (ie the CF) to order your shirt online is determined by the "actual dollar value" of that shirt cost on the budget.
> 
> Yep, we saved a FORTUNE going to points, let that not be understated.



If this is the case then why do the oxfords cost more points than the parade boots but to purchase them the parade boots cost more to purchase than the oxfords?


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## armyvern (14 Apr 2010)

Sub-normal said:
			
		

> If this is the case then why do the oxfords cost more points than the parade boots but to purchase them the parade boots cost more to purchase than the oxfords?



Have no idea; sounds like a glitch to me. Did you contact their "help desk" via the contact us link? That's a question to ask Logistik.


I can only tell you how the Clothing WGs, Army Op Clothing WGs and MASOP WGs worked this matter because that's what I participated in as part of figuring out how to implement.


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## SeanNewman (14 Apr 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Have no idea; sounds like a glitch to me. Did you contact their "help desk" via the contact us link?



Probably one of those websites where as soon as you click on the "Contact Us" on the DWAN it goes straight the the Access Blocked page.


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## armyvern (14 Apr 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Probably one of those websites where as soon as you click on the "Contact Us" on the DWAN it goes straight the the Access Blocked page.



If you think it's bad on your base, you should come to Borden. This place is retarded for the sites it blocks. I can't even access my bank to get my banking done during lunchtime while I'm here on course. I could do that in Gagetown.


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## SeanNewman (14 Apr 2010)

Royal Bank doesn't work here now, either.  You can get to the main page but not click on the "sign in" page.

It's very unfortunate because it actually makes me less productive at the workplace.  Instead of taking a couple minutes out of my day to shift some money around, I have to take some "Pers Admin" time to go to a branch or sit there at my desk on hold like a tool for 1/2 hour.


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## Nuggs (4 May 2010)

So let me get this straight, I lost a couple hundred points when the year rolled over.

And now am being told that I have to order my whites (even though initial issue) against my points.


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## armyvern (4 May 2010)

Crockett said:
			
		

> ...
> And now am being told that I have to order my whites (even though initial issue) against my points.



Well, yeah - if you've got longer than 5 years in (or changed elements >5 years ago). But, that's not a new rule - it's been the rule since I joined 22 years ago.


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## Nuggs (4 May 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, yeah - if you've got longer than 5 years in (or changed elements >5 years ago). But, that's not a new rule - it's been the rule since I joined 22 years ago.



Been in a year, its initial issue.


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## ekpiper (4 May 2010)

Crockett said:
			
		

> Been in a year, its initial issue.



At 200 points per year, you shouldn't have enough to be over the 500 point mark where you lose any excess...that is unless you've been classed Tier 1 DEU, when you receive a total of 500 points/year.  And if it is something that should be initial issue, I think that you're supposed to talk to ASU to get it.


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## armyvern (4 May 2010)

Crockett said:
			
		

> Been in a year, its initial issue.



Then go to f'n clothing stores and have them order it for you. You do NOT order your initial issue yourself from Logistik. Initial Issues are handled, ordered from Logistik and recd AT/BY clothing stores. ... as is also posted on this site 10 million times ...

 :brickwall:


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## CountDC (4 May 2010)

I love reading Vern posts.   ;D


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## danchapps (4 May 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I love reading Vern posts.   ;D



I love reading Vern reactions


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## Nuggs (4 May 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Then go to f'n clothing stores and have them order it for you. You do NOT order your initial issue yourself from Logistik. Initial Issues are handled, ordered from Logistik and recd AT/BY clothing stores. ... as is also posted on this site 10 million times ...
> 
> :brickwall:



Wasn't trying to get ya going Vern.

But when stores tells you to pound sand that the rules have changed and you have to order online..... ODs don't argue much.


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## armyvern (4 May 2010)

Crockett said:
			
		

> Wasn't trying to get ya going Vern.
> 
> But when stores tells you to pound sand that the rules have changed and you have to order online..... ODs don't argue much.



OK, so just in case you failed to mention to them that your whites were for "initial issue":

The change in the rules (circa 2004/5) was applicable ONLY to replacment DEU. All members must now order their own replacement DEU using their points via Logistik Unicorp ...

...

I see that there has been a "change to the regulations" in that members now only have 1 year to have Clothing Stores order their initial issue on their behalves ... and to do "free" exchanges for the first year after enrollment/change of enviornment. Ergo, change all my previous to read 1 year vice 5 years.

But, in your case, it looks like you've actually been in longer than 1 year not less than one year.

If not, then go back to clothing and have them login to Logistik and read Logistik's very own statement about Initial Issues:



> *Am I entitled to an initial issue of DEU? *
> All members that are enrolling in the CF are entitled to a full initial issue of DEU according to certain supply policies which is ordered through your supporting Supply Section. Your points are not to be used to order your Initial Issue and are only designed to replace your worn DEU items. You are entitled to one year of free exchange of initial issue items at clothing stores and have one year to fully complete this initial issue by visiting any clothing store.



On a personal note: It's about damn time they lowered the time limit for initial issues ... I never could understand how someone would be incapable of finding a sole single hour within a 5 year period to go to clothing and have their initial issue order placed. I always just rolled my eyes when pers would show up and bitch at us like it was our fault because they had to use points (or purchase back in the day) because their 5 years had expired and they had been incapable of finding an hour to do so.


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## Nuggs (4 May 2010)

Thanks for the clarification Vern


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## Occam (29 Mar 2011)

Just a reminder to everyone - get your *Clothing Online* orders in before March 31, or you lose any points you have over 300.

Use 'em or Lose 'em!



> A quick reminder from DSSPM2 that as per CANFORGEN 077/10 Para 2:
> 
> As of Apr 1 2010, "THE MAXIMUM NUMBER OF POINTS THAT CAN BE CARRIED FORWARD INTO THE NEXT FISCAL YEAR WILL BE 300".
> 
> Therefore, if your account balance currently exceeds 300 points, you have until Mar 31 2011 to spend the accumulated excess points; after this date they will be removed permanently.


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## Pusser (29 Mar 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> On a personal note: It's about damn time they lowered the time limit for initial issues ... I never could understand how someone would be incapable of finding a sole single hour within a 5 year period to go to clothing and have their initial issue order placed. I always just rolled my eyes when pers would show up and ***** at us like it was our fault because they had to use points (or purchase back in the day) because their 5 years had expired and they had been incapable of finding an hour to do so.



I know this is an older thread, but I just noticed this and since I know the answer to Vern's question, I thought I'd weigh in.  Before I do that though, I will voice my agreement with her that five years was too long.  Nevertheless, the five year limit was derived from the calculation that it would take five years worth of Clothing Upkeep Allowance (CUA) to pay for a complete issue of uniforms.  In other words, after five years, you would already have received enough money through your pay to buy a complete replacement uniform; therefore, you no longer needed your initial issue.  Flawed reasoning perhaps, but true nonetheless.  Now that we no longer collect CUA, the whole premise goes out the window.


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## PuckChaser (29 Mar 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Just a reminder to everyone - get your *Clothing Online* orders in before March 31, or you lose any points you have over 300.
> 
> Use 'em or Lose 'em!



Just remembered last week, got a new gaberdine, tunic and some gloves just to make sure my excess points weren't sent into the abyss. Shame they're lowering the point totals, but really how often do you need to replace all of your DEU accouterments?


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## Thompson_JM (30 Mar 2011)

boy am I glad I found this....

Time to go order a few things to make sure I use those 200 points I woulda lost!


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## Sully (30 Mar 2011)

I love the wool socks and order them as much as they let me. I wear them all year around on a daily basis.


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## dapaterson (22 Mar 2014)

Occam said:
			
		

> Just a reminder to everyone - get your *Clothing Online* orders in before March 31, or you lose any points you have over 300.
> 
> Use 'em or Lose 'em!



...since March 31st is rapidly approaching, just a reminder to pick up the DEU pieces you may be missing before your points lapse...


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## McG (29 Mar 2014)

Only hours remaining:  https://www.logistikunicorp.com/default2.asp?lang=E


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## Transporter (29 Mar 2014)

MCG said:
			
		

> Only hours remaining:  https://www.logistikunicorp.com/default2.asp?lang=E



Thanks for the reminder. I'm sitting at 800 points so better get to ordering  ;D


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