# Leadership in the Cadet Snr NCO role



## Franko (18 Jan 2004)

Well, my last question started a flurry of discussion, so why not another? Here it goes...


What, if any, are the problems that YOU have seen with the leadership of the Snr NCOs in YOUR corps?

How would you change these problems?

Is there any policies you would implement to improve the quality of leadership of all NCOs?

Comments please!

Regards


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## Caz (18 Jan 2004)

Franko, I enjoy you.

The largest problem of leadership goes back to the entire "if you slow down, they will stop" principle.

Officers need to remember (especially the junior ones) that we are officers.  Officer = office.  There is absolutely no reason why your Chief can‘t have their staff of WOs, and run the unit - and I don‘t just mean on the parade square.  Training plans, instructor allocations, exercise preparation, warning and operations orders...  if we, as staff, don‘t let the senior cadets (especially on the air side, once they get past their OJT) do these things, they look up to us for everything, and don‘t delegate down.

We shouldn‘t be leaving them in the dark (write me a training plan, Chief); we‘re here to provide the resources and guidance where necessary.  What is our goal with the junior cadets?  To train them and keep them happy, hopefully via our senior cadets.  Our goal with senior cadets?  To train them in our roles, so they can transition into the roles in the community or the CF that match their skill-set.

The staff need to challenge the senior cadets to constantly surpass their best form.  We‘re here, as I said, to provide the resources, and fill gaps when needed (130 new recruits this year made the NCO structure unable to cope with the instructional duties).  We‘re also hear to enforce the standards at the top level - the Chief‘s office.

Clear as mud?

-R.


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## Jason Jarvis (18 Jan 2004)

> The largest problem of leadership goes back to the entire "if you slow down, they will stop" principle


This almost sounds like the chicken and the egg argument, and plays right back to the debate about what needs to be done to fix [army] cadets.

You can‘t have strong senior NCOs without strong leadership from unit officers. I know a unit where senior cadets (Sgt and up) routinely show up without their uniforms, do not prepare training plans, follow a regular class schedule or lead by example. As a result, this unit has low attendance, poor discipline, low morale and next to no espirit de corps. All that aside, the cadets appear to want to learn, but the seniors are so jaded about the whole thing they don‘t seem to care.

Assuming the CO is following and cultivating his links up the chain of command to the ACO -- who seems to be relatively unaware of the situation on the ground -- what can be done to correct the situation?


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## chalk1 (19 Jan 2004)

First of all...ALL HAIL CAS! Nicely put. i totally agree. Giving seniors space to be NCO‘s and not taking over is a great way to start. There‘s nothing i can‘t stand more than an officer acting like an NCO. I hate to say how many times Ive seen that, because it can go on for that senior‘s entire time as CSM,RSM, etc. and the cadet learns only a small portion of their duties, is only used as a parade position and in the end has not developed to their ful potential as a leader.


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## Franko (19 Jan 2004)

Jason....those troops that are doing this are actually getting away with it?

I would personally make it a campain of utter torment until they couldn‘t take it anymore, then turn up the pain a bit more until they literally cried. Doesn‘t take much either. You can stay well inside the CHAP crap and still have a field day. Taskings...so may of them they can‘t cope, let off a bit, then turn it up higher. Dress them down about their deportment and dress...often. Don‘t sugar coat it either. Tell them the truth, don‘t lie(CHAP comes in when you do). When they start to crack, and they will(the slackers ALWAYS do) you‘ll see it in their eyes. 

Thats the time to have "the talk". Be honest about their performance, don‘t lie. If they aren‘t up to par, tell them. Then offer a way to improve, give a final critique. Then tell them the ball is in their court.

In the end it‘s up to them. Obviously these slackers are literally spitting in your face when they pull these stunts. You are the boss, not them. Remind them of this through your actions and determination. They‘ll either sink or swim.

Hopefully these jokers will just quite, and some fresh blood will come up the ranks with some real professionalism and drive. 

I‘ve only had to do this once(learned it from an old RSM) and it worked. The WO in question straightened up and left the cadets a Master and some good times to boot. He was worth the effort.

Had one who wasn‘t once(Sgt). Everything was rotten about him. Walked up to him and said(with the entire corps and staff present)"We are, myself very much so, so very disappointed in your performance and effort. You have no drive nor devotion to this corps. The CO has made up his mind and I‘m doing the deed....you are fired! Leave now, we will pick up your uniform tomorrow". His parents were present and they readilied agreed to this being done, for the corps sake as well as hitting him with a hammer. He was doing a lot of drugs at the time. 3 weeks later he came in, asked to see the CO and myself. He asked to be put on a probationary period of our choosing, and droped to the Pvt rank. We did. He turned himself around, got off the drugs and is now an excellent CIC officer. We still keep in touch to this day, he is a very good friend of mine now. Clean, sober, married with 2 kids.

Sometimes it takes drastic measure to snap people out of a bad thing, this specific case was unique.

I‘m sure I‘ll get some people out there who will chastise me for participating in this, but it helped him. If we had to do it all over again, I‘d be the first to step up.

Oh man..rambled on too much. As for the two slackers, kick ‘em out unless they‘re salvagable   

Regards


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## Franko (19 Jan 2004)

Again it seems I‘ve dampened a good conversation.

My apologies

So lets get back on track....leading by example good. Officers letting NCOs do their job good...

What else is there? Must be lots of troops out there who can put in a cent or two, or in my case a whole bloody pound!    

Regards


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## Jason Jarvis (19 Jan 2004)

> *Franko wrote:*
> Jason....those troops that are doing this are actually getting away with it?


Affirmative. Unfortunately for Caz, the officers take Officer = office to the extreme: there is no effective leadership because the officers do not lead.

I‘ve learned that this unit has been down in the dumps for quite some time, but always manages to muddle its way through each successive crisis. And it‘s a crying shame, too, because it has an excellent history (110 years old) and the junior cadets really are quite good. The officers complain about how hard it is to attract and retain cadets, but don‘t seem to want to sit down and talk about why that‘s happening.

This lack of leadership goes right back to what Caz said about providing resources and guidance, and to which I would add _*giving them a push and getting the h*ll out of their way*_. I‘ve always felt that teenagers learn best by doing things themselves and acting independently with a minimum of guidance. If, after giving a Sgt or WO2 a push, they stumble, that‘s fine -- so long as you‘re there to support them and ensure that they learn from their mistake(s). That done, go find that missing map. . . .  

Strong and dynamic senior NCOs carry an immense amount of respect with junior cadets, and just like in the CF, are the glue that bonds everything together. If they don‘t feel empowered in their roles, the whole house rots around them.

Jason


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## john226 (19 Jan 2004)

I have just signed up on this forum and the discussions here are very intersting.

However, I do have a question. At my cc their is this WO that is having some real difficult family problems and his preformance at the corps has suffered greatly from this.

He was not even in uniform last training day because he ran away from home.

Now the problem is, yes we could give him the boot but then (I am sure) his family problems would get worse.On the flip side should the cadets under him suffer from his bad performance?


any thoughts sugestions please

Who dares wins


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## chalk1 (20 Jan 2004)

Refer to chap officer..thats all i can say. I have the same situation, at my corps there are quite a few cadets who have problems with home life and family. i dont often know what to do myself, neither do the officers it would seem.(not due to inexperience, just a touchy situation.) in our most extreme case, a senior cadet we have has an alcoholic father who sexually abuses hthe cadet on a regular basis. we cant intervene because the mother ‘loves" her husband too much, but cant stand the situation. cadets is the only outlet this cadet has, yet she is constantly a discipline problem...shes her own worst enemy, really. suggestions?


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## Franko (20 Jan 2004)

You have only one option. If you are aware of a an abuse happening to a minor you MUST report it to the police and child services. If you don‘t you are liable.

regards


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## Caz (23 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by Jason:
> [qb]Affirmative. Unfortunately for Caz, the officers take Officer = office to the extreme: there is no effective leadership because the officers do not lead.
> .............
> Strong and dynamic senior NCOs carry an immense amount of respect with junior cadets, and just like in the CF, are the glue that bonds everything together. If they don‘t feel empowered in their roles, the whole house rots around them.
> [/qb]


Jason, very much agreed.  Some officers do take that to the extreme... and yes, by providing the resources, I do mean giving them a push, seeing how far they get, and the re-evaluating the situation to see how we can improve the process and results.

That leadership needs to start at the top, and flow down the ranks....

I know, it‘s all rather utopian


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## Franko (25 Jan 2004)

Good point and well said Caz

Regards


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## cdhoult (30 Jan 2004)

Last post for the night...errr...morning...

A lot of corps tend to have some kind  of "Leadership Cycle".

Some senior cadets have some potential...but no one tells them they‘re doing anything wrong, or sits down and chats with them.  Therefore, nothing gets done, and there is this generation of ‘leaders‘ who aren‘t that great...

Below them, is this amazing group of Cpl‘s and MCpl‘s who have tons of potential. They don‘t get the leadership from those above them, so they take the opporunity and provide it for themselves.

Now, when that group gets to the ‘top‘, I‘ve seen one of two things happen...

1. The group continues on to TRAIN good leaders, and stand back a little to allow that group to flourish.

or

2. That group continues to be a great group of leaders, but don‘t really pass on the knowledge of how everything runs...after they leave, there‘s this weaker group of leaders now at the top, who never really had a chance to lead, and are now thrust into the position.

I think just giving some responsability out will solve some of the problems, and actually calling them on little things. "Where‘s your uniform?" "Why are you late?" "Why aren‘t you ready to teach?" and the answer "uhhh" isn‘t good enough. 

We recentley designed, and will be implimenting, a competition between the platoons...

For every cadet that comes out of uniform, they will be awarded no points...for every NCO that comes out of uniform, 5 points deducted (they should have the foresight to plan ahead).

For every cadet that is AWOL, 5 points deducted. Every NCO, 10 point. 

Hopefully, when it hurts their platoons that much, they will own up to the responsability.


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## Franko (30 Jan 2004)

And what is the motivation/ reward for this competition?

As for pulling aside senior NCOs for dress and deportment...the RSM handles it. If he can‘t...they go to me( a very seasoned advisor from the Regiment)

Usually it doesn‘t get as far as that.

I do agree in the principle you are getting across. "know the job of the person above you". It is common practice in any tight unit. It strengthens the groups cohesion as well as compliments the structured atmosphere in the unit.

Too bad there aren‘t enough people doing this in the cadet world. I actually heard a CIC officer say"When I leave, they‘ll be ____ed!".

Lead by example indeed.

Regards


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## Jason Jarvis (30 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb] And what is the motivation/ reward for this competition?[/qb]


In my old squadron we were assessed based on our dress and department every training night. F/Sgts would look after their flight, the SWO would look after the F/Sgts and other supernumeraries, the WO1 would assess the SWO and any other WOs, and the duty officer would assess the WO1. These scores were tracked and used to award trophies to the top cadets in each level, as well as the top overall (almost always the WO1, of course) and most improved. Slightly anal retentive, of course, but a great way to encourage good uniforms, instill discipline and promote morale, e.g. if I keep my boots shiny and uniform pressed I could win a great big honking trophy on annual inspection!

I always thought it worked well, and our squadron did look good on parade -- even through a couple lean years. I suggested it last August as a way to improve morale at my corps and they all looked at me like I had three heads. Go figure.


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## Caz (30 Jan 2004)

Colin, when did you go army?


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## cdhoult (30 Jan 2004)

A trophy for the platoon as a whole, plus the individual marks would be tracked to go towards other awards.

They were discussing actually allowing some funds, to allow the platoon to have tickets to a hockey game, or pizza, or something to that affect.

I‘ve been army for 3 weeks now, Rob. It‘s been interesting, attempting to learn the program in that time in order to write the NSCE next Thursday!


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## Disappointed9411 (30 Jan 2004)

3 weeks!, are you allowed to write NSCE, thats suprising for being in only a short time


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## Franko (30 Jan 2004)

Disappointed 9411...read the entire thread.
 

He SWITCHED elements...why is that so surprising?

Regards


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## Caz (30 Jan 2004)

Congrats, Colin - I‘m sure you‘ll do great.  Going to do an air stint before you age out?   

PM me.


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## cdhoult (31 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by Disappointed9411:
> [qb] 3 weeks!, are you allowed to write NSCE, thats suprising for being in only a short time [/qb]


It is and it isn‘t. I was a Sea Cadet CPO1 (CWO), so I passed (albeit, quite a while ago) the National PO1 Exam.

Most aspects of the exam are tri-service:

--> Drill (In order to teach)
--> IT (Classroom and Drill)
--> Leadership
--> Citizenship
--> PT
--> Knots (...yeah...don‘t know ANY of those, lol)

There are some aspects I‘ll have to learn from scratch, but as a whole, they weren‘t ready to knock me down to WO, but they couldn‘t have a MWO walking around without NSCE. Therefore, the solution was for me to just do the exam.


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## John Nayduk (5 Feb 2004)

Do any of you guys get support in the form of NCOs from your sponsering army units?


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## Franko (14 Feb 2004)

I have worked with cadets as a rep for their affiliated unit for whichever unit I was posted to at the time.

Regards


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## Franko (15 Dec 2004)

BUMP
Seeing as a thread was now getting on the topic of leadership....how about using this one?

Regards


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## dano (15 Dec 2004)

Excellent. I got some very good ideas here. I will be using the ones I think will work for my platoon. Most definitely.

My CSM seems to have a problem with my section commanders and 2IC taking initiative in front of the platoon. Obviously if I'm not there, or my 2IC, they go up. I'm impressed with their initiative. However, I get in big crap from my CSM for not being in front. He states "they can't call drill for crap" "he/she looks bad" and that I'm not doing my job properly because I'm not in front. He always wants me in front. Not my 2IC or section commanders. Just me. This really piss's me off. My personal goal for my subordinates in the platoon are to give them more leadership experience and responsibility with their sections/platoon on the parade square then I have ever had. So far, they do. My platoon commanders in the past, did not make room for me to flourish, and I know the effect. I don't want the same thing to happen to my sec cmdrs. But as far as things do go, my CSM will not allow me to broaden they're experience. 
I could use some advice.


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## Bassface (15 Dec 2004)

In my corps, The Snr NCO's are inspected for their dress and deportment. They are not allowed to inspect the rest of the cadets unless their uniforms are according to or exceeding the regulation. A problem we do have is that the younger cadets don't understand the concept of dicipline and respect towards their senoir cadets. This is not all of the cadets of course. just a few. They think that we should be theur friends and that because of the few year age difference, the think they don't have to listen to us and respect our authority. 
Things have gotten better than what they were but they all still need more help.
Something else we do is we  have log books that record the specific dress of each cadet in out platoon, including our 2IC. It works better than the random telling them what's wrong. Now we will have it recorded.


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## Franko (10 Jan 2005)

BTT


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## Burrows (10 Jan 2005)

Added to the FAQ ;D


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## Franko (11 Jan 2005)

Seen

Regards


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## Saorse (11 Jan 2005)

Bassface said:
			
		

> In my corps, The Snr NCO's are inspected for their dress and deportment. They are not allowed to inspect the rest of the cadets unless their uniforms are according to or exceeding the regulation. A problem we do have is that the younger cadets don't understand the concept of dicipline and respect towards their senoir cadets. This is not all of the cadets of course. just a few. They think that we should be theur friends and that because of the few year age difference, the think they don't have to listen to us and respect our authority.



This is a problem in my corps as well, given certain times. When I get in front of the group of green stars to teach a class, and I form them up, stand them at ease, the usual what-nots, most of them are waving, asking what we're going to be going over, when in all reality they should come to attention, raise their hands, and all that jazz.

It is important to remember, though, that they are young, and in small corps like mine, everyone knows everyone, and I believe it is the friendlieness in our corps that won us the Most Improved Army Cadet Corps in Nova Scotia this year past. While authority must be respected, good nature must not be ignored, but I definitely understand how it can tug at one's sleeve on occasion.


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## Sharpey (14 Jan 2005)

It's good to be close to members of your Corps, but one must remember to know when to take the buddy hat off and toss on a helmet and play Army!


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## Saorse (14 Jan 2005)

Providing you're not like a lot of corps I have run into, and overabuse the game of Army.


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## Franko (14 Jan 2005)

Care to give some examples that you find went a bit "too much" and give some insight as to what you would change?

Regards


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## Saorse (15 Jan 2005)

- Tearing cadets' heads off (the rank "cadet,") while formed up admist 5 other cadet corps for not standing at ease as sharp as the rest of the corps.

- Getting in a cadet's face (again, cadet rank) for not knowng the command, "Leading off from the right, Easy - March!"

- An RSM flipping off an entire corps for improperly shuffling over after a Master Corporal left ranks, and assigning them all to extras in our FTX

This is not what cadets is about in the slighest. I've seen power being abused far too much to ever give cadets a solid name.


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## Sharpey (15 Jan 2005)

So is that what you think the Army is like? Only the power trippers are like that, and that seems to be what you are talking about. They took discipline a little to far I think for Cadets, remembering Cadets are nostly kids. But I am sure some Corps are more strict than others. The Corps I work with is fairly strict, but yet we keep getting more and more new members and transfers. Just gotta play the game right, and people will respect you and take the job seriously. That's why they created the 10 principles of Leadership.


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## Love793 (15 Jan 2005)

"Leadership is not loudership"


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## Saorse (16 Jan 2005)

Sharpie said:
			
		

> So is that what you think the Army is like? Only the power trippers are like that, and that seems to be what you are talking about. They took discipline a little to far I think for Cadets, remembering Cadets are nostly kids. But I am sure some Corps are more strict than others. The Corps I work with is fairly strict, but yet we keep getting more and more new members and transfers. Just gotta play the game right, and people will respect you and take the job seriously. That's why they created the 10 principles of Leadership.



Just pointing out the scary aspects of leadership gone wrong. Promotions based on merit and all that are truly wonderful, but sometimes, I truly wonder if cadets is too much based on "he was here longer than him" over, "he'd handle the promotion better than him."

Now, given due credit, a lot of promotions in the higher raks are given based on ability, not on age. When a promotion to such a high rank is not warranted (pardon the pun,) considerably, however, things do tend to go askew.


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## Sharpey (16 Jan 2005)

I have had recently observed what happens when a person receives a promotion simply due to the fact there was no one to fill the position except this one individual. It was not based on merit at all, but time in basicly. Not a good idea as this person was not capable of fulflling the newly given rank. So yes, it should be based on merit and qualifications, not on, we need to fill the hole!


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## Love793 (16 Jan 2005)

Tee Hee Hee.... ;D


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## Sharpey (17 Jan 2005)

Love793, I think you kow who I am referring to?


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## Love793 (17 Jan 2005)

Got a pretty good idea


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## Burrows (17 Jan 2005)

Im hoping for a story with the real names replaced with WO Bloggins and Cpl Gustav >


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