# Where should the monuments come home to?



## The Bread Guy (13 Nov 2010)

This piece in today's _Kingston Whig-Standard_ raises a good question:


> As the Canadian Forces abandon the desert base that was their staging area into Afghan -istan, they are bringing back one of the most important items there.
> 
> The centrepiece of Camp Mirage was a subdued but elegant cairn in the centre of the camp, outside the mess. On it were plaques commemorating each of the 152 Canadian soldiers who have died in the war, including three who grew up in this area.
> 
> ...


Even if it is a decision "made at the level of the (CDS)", any ideas for a home for this?  Or even the other monuments up in/around Afghanistan?


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## Michael OLeary (13 Nov 2010)

Perhaps the National Military Cemetery would be a fitting place for the monuments.


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## Infanteer (13 Nov 2010)

War Museum?


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## Task (13 Nov 2010)

Somewhere along the Highway of Heroes, where they all traveled?


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## lethalLemon (13 Nov 2010)

They should pool each the plaques and such and organize them into monuments for each city/town; create a monument to send to Montreal consisting of all fallen heroes from Montreal... and do so for Vancouver, New Westminster, Surrey, Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa... Flin Flon, Quebec City, Trois Rivières, St John's etc etc

That way, all the families and friends will be able to pay their respects whenever they want to a formal monument for their fallen loved ones without having to fly to... let's say Ottawa... to see the "_official_" (?) dedications that were erected at KAF.

OR create duplicates to display at the National Military Cemetary, War Museum or whatever; or have a duplicate monuments (as mentioned above) sent to the cities rather than the originals; and have the originals at the War Museum etc.

It would be nice if they created another national monument/memorial in Ottawa as well, because if memory serves me correctly, there's a monument for Pre-Confederation victories of the British Empire, WWI, WW2, and Korea - Afghanistan being the largest and (I could be wrong) first combat operation of the CF since Korea.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's my  :2c:


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## dogger1936 (13 Nov 2010)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> War Museum?



 I agree.


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## the 48th regulator (13 Nov 2010)

My Front yard.

I live 2 blocks away from one of the bridges that passes over the Highway of heroes.  

I agree with Infanteer, The War Museum would be  a perfect place, as they have plenty of space around the building.

dileas

tess


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## Kirkhill (13 Nov 2010)

I'm going to be a heretic and say they shouldn't come home.

There are memorials at home.

That memorial should be left in place in perpetuity for the Afghans to see the names of those who died trying to rebuild their country.  There is ample precedence in the military cemeteries scattered across the world and maintained by Canadians, Brits, Aussies, Americans....I don't know if other countries also maintain cemeteries..... but all of those cemeteries were maintained by locals, often in the face of opposition by their fellow countrymen.


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## Task (13 Nov 2010)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I'm going to be a heretic and say they shouldn't come home.
> 
> There are memorials at home.
> 
> That memorial should be left in place in perpetuity for the Afghans to see the names of those who died trying to rebuild their country.  There is ample precedence in the military cemeteries scattered across the world and maintained by Canadians, Brits, Aussies, Americans....I don't know if other countries also maintain cemeteries..... but all of those cemeteries were maintained by locals, often in the face of opposition by their fellow countrymen.


I believe this is the one in Dubai. I do not think leaving it there would serve them(UAE) and probably would be used to tether the aircraft bound for Canada on...


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## mariomike (13 Nov 2010)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I'm going to be a heretic and say they shouldn't come home.
> 
> There are memorials at home.
> 
> That memorial should be left in place in perpetuity for the Afghans to see the names of those who died trying to rebuild their country.  There is ample precedence in the military cemeteries scattered across the world and maintained by Canadians, Brits, Aussies, Americans....I don't know if other countries also maintain cemeteries..... but all of those cemeteries were maintained by locals, often in the face of opposition by their fellow countrymen.




I have an uncle interred ( In a Canadian war grave. There are four other Canadians buried there, and their two R.A.F. crew-mates. ) in a communal cemetery in France. It's not a military cemetery. The local people have been very kind and helpful when our families have visited ( my father actually vacationed there a few times after he retired ),  and were very brave in the summer of 1944. Liberation was still a few weeks away.
The tall white wooden crosses are French war graves. They ( the town people ) buried the Canadians front and centre facing their national flag.

I know it's not the same situation as Afganistan, but France made a very positive impression on my family.


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## Franko (13 Nov 2010)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I'm going to be a heretic and say they shouldn't come home.
> 
> There are memorials at home.
> 
> That memorial should be left in place in perpetuity for the Afghans to see the names of those who died trying to rebuild their country.  There is ample precedence in the military cemeteries scattered across the world and maintained by Canadians, Brits, Aussies, Americans....I don't know if other countries also maintain cemeteries..... but all of those cemeteries were maintained by locals, often in the face of opposition by their fellow countrymen.



When the Taliban take over again, because of short-sightedness of politicians, they will be destroyed. Remember the Buddha in central Afghanistan?

I can't see it surviving.

My $0.02 worth.

Regards


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## HavokFour (13 Nov 2010)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> They should pool each the plaques and such and organize them into monuments for each city/town; create a monument to send to Montreal consisting of all fallen heroes from Montreal... and do so for Vancouver, New Westminster, Surrey, Edmonton, Calgary, Ottawa... Flin Flon, Quebec City, Trois Rivières, St John's etc etc
> 
> That way, all the families and friends will be able to pay their respects whenever they want to a formal monument for their fallen loved ones without having to fly to... let's say Ottawa... to see the "_official_" (?) dedications that were erected at KAF.
> 
> ...



Tip top ideas right here, have some points on me.

The original should be located somewhere here in Ottawa, and smaller versions put in each respective soldiers community.

Going on a small tangent, me and my great uncle have been discussing planting one red maple for every fallen soldier (152 trees in total) on our family land. Input greatly appreciated.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Nov 2010)

Screw Ottawa.  The only common denominator all those who were killed have in common is they all landed in Trenton.  Give it a place of honour there.


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## the 48th regulator (13 Nov 2010)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I'm going to be a heretic and say they shouldn't come home.
> 
> There are memorials at home.
> 
> That memorial should be left in place in perpetuity for the Afghans to see the names of those who died trying to rebuild their country.  There is ample precedence in the military cemeteries scattered across the world and maintained by Canadians, Brits, Aussies, Americans....I don't know if other countries also maintain cemeteries..... but all of those cemeteries were maintained by locals, often in the face of opposition by their fellow countrymen.



Very good point;

http://www.scotfot.com/BritishCemeteryWebsite/index.html

http://www.indian-cemeteries.org/cemetery_details.asp?town=peshawar&cem=tehkal%20cemetery


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## PuckChaser (13 Nov 2010)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I'm going to be a heretic and say they shouldn't come home.
> 
> There are memorials at home.
> 
> That memorial should be left in place in perpetuity for the Afghans to see the names of those who died trying to rebuild their country.  There is ample precedence in the military cemeteries scattered across the world and maintained by Canadians, Brits, Aussies, Americans....I don't know if other countries also maintain cemeteries..... but all of those cemeteries were maintained by locals, often in the face of opposition by their fellow countrymen.



Given that countries' state of flux, give them a duplicate and bring the real one back to Canada. I can't imagine the heartache and anguish that moment would cause if it was unceremoniously destroyed either by a ruling power taken over in civil war, or a suicide bomber.


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## lethalLemon (13 Nov 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Screw Ottawa.  The only common denominator all those who were killed have in common is they all landed in Trenton.  Give it a place of honour there.



Even better then!





			
				HavokFour said:
			
		

> Tip top ideas right here, have some points on me.
> 
> The original should be located somewhere here in Ottawa, and smaller versions put in each respective soldiers community.
> 
> Going on a small tangent, me and my great uncle have been discussing planting one red maple for every fallen soldier (152 trees in total) on our family land. Input greatly appreciated.



Thank you very much 

...and good luck to you with your Honour Trees


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## vonGarvin (13 Nov 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Screw Ottawa.  The only common denominator all those who were killed have in common is they all landed in Trenton.  Give it a place of honour there.


Very good point.  I agree.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Nov 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Very good point.  I agree.



But to be fair, you probably never made it past "screw Ottawa".    ;D


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## vonGarvin (13 Nov 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> But to be fair, you probably never made it past "screw Ottawa".    ;D


There was text after "screw Ottawa"?

;D


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## The Bread Guy (13 Nov 2010)

I like the idea of sharing the monuments across Canada (not everybody gets to Ottawa to pay their respects) the best.

It's also possible, though, that this option could get complicated with families where one parent lives in x and another lives in y, leading to potential "wishbone" issues.


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## armyvern (13 Nov 2010)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I like the idea of sharing the monuments across Canada (not everybody gets to Ottawa to pay their respects) the best.
> 
> It's also possible, though, that this option could get complicated with families where one parent lives in x and another lives in y, leading to potential "wishbone" issues.



But also for those fallen with spouses & children living in 3rd, 4th, 5th etc etc locations.


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Nov 2010)

I don't think leaving them over there, whether Afghanistan or UAE is an option. UAE's will be mowed down as soon as the local millionaires want the land for a mall, with no thought. For Afghanistan, if and when we 'all' (read ISAF, allies, et al) leave, certain locals will take great glee in destroying them and filming it for propaganda. This isn't Holland.

A revered place in the National Capitol for the originals and a grant towards total cost and common construction plans for any local community that wants to erect a replica. The replicas should be standardised and reflect the original but not outdo it.


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## mover1 (13 Nov 2010)

One should be put in or around the 2 AMU passenger terminal here in Trenton. 
Reasoning as follows

1. Its the beginning of the Highway of Heroes
2. All of the repats go through here.
3. Its a high traffic area that most of us will pass through at least once.
4. I am sure that given stewardship of the monument  8 Wing and 2 AMU would take very good care of it. 
5. The National Airforce Museum is just down the road that  lots of people visit and it would be something that would be seen by a lot of ordinary Canadians with its close proximity. 

As for adding memorials all across Canada I see it as a non issue. Most towns have cenotaphs to their fallen. The names of the local dead from Afghanistan should be included on them.

The others should be placed at the War Museum that way its there for all those who want to see it in an area that is within that context.

Just my View on the matter


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## wildman0101 (13 Nov 2010)

I agree with Kat Steven's.
Screw Ottawa...
Our repatriated started  their
true journey home on the high-
way of Hero's. The monument 
should go to C.F.B Trenton.
Just my 2 cents.
 to our fallen.
I will remember you.  
Best's Regard's,
Scoty B


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## Fishbone Jones (13 Nov 2010)

I'm easy. Trenton it can be.


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## 57Chevy (13 Nov 2010)

iper: Trenton iper:


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## GAP (13 Nov 2010)

57Chevy said:
			
		

> iper: Trenton iper:



ditto


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## marshall sl (13 Nov 2010)

I Agree!


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## Jarnhamar (13 Nov 2010)

Anywhere but Ottawa.

Trenton is an excellent choice


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## riggermade (13 Nov 2010)

My only concern with Trenton is that it should be someplace accessable to the public


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## brihard (13 Nov 2010)

Regardless of whether either of the memorials ends up in Ottawa, we ought to have something for Afghanistan here in the NCR, either at Beechwood or at the War Museum.

I found both of the memorials very beautiful and tasteful, and would like to see something like them replicated here, not unlike the American Vietnam memorial. But in particular the pictures of the troops are a very nice touch, and one I'd like to see preserved.


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## riggermade (13 Nov 2010)

Personally I like the idea of the War Museum...I think they have done an excellent job and that room they have just does me in every time I go thru it and I tink they would do an excellent job of presenting it with the respect they deserve


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## gun runner (13 Nov 2010)

I am all for Trenton. Cheers.


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## vonGarvin (13 Nov 2010)

For Trenton, the perfect place, in my opinion, would be on RCAF road (formerly AMDU Road for us "old folks").  Right at the intersection with former Highway 2, where the Highway of Heroes begins, right after "Repatriation Row" (as I've heard it called).  It's easily accessible, and a small dignified park could be created there, and there is already a small parking spot.   Yes, it's on a flight path, but isn't that fitting?  Every one of our returning fallen passed by their, and so have their families, in their time of grief.

As for Ottawa, there may be reason now to amend the National War Monument to include the inscription "Afghanistan 2001 - ????" (once it's all done).


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## mover1 (14 Nov 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> For Trenton, the perfect place, in my opinion, would be on RCAF road (formerly AMDU Road for us "old folks").  Right at the intersection with former Highway 2, where the Highway of Heroes begins, right after "Repatriation Row" (as I've heard it called).



No its still called Highway 2 its not Repatriation Row. I have heard in circles that that is what people want to call that stretch of road. I think its a dumb idea.  it only focuses in on loss. Who wants to deploy on a potentially dangerous mission and travel down a street called Repatriation Row.  
I can see it now. 
"Excuse me can you direct me and my family to 2 AMU I am deploying to Africa and I need to catch my plane"
"Why yes travel down the highway of Heroes and at the end you go to repatriation row. take right. drive down there until you hit Legless lane and once you get there enter into the PTSD memorial parking lot.  and your there at 2 AMU. Thanks for your service and safe"

So please never refer to  that section Highway 2 as Repatriation Row.


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Anywhere but Ottawa.
> 
> Trenton is an excellent choice




Why is everyone against putting them in Ottawa?  I am sure more people will be able to visit them at the CWM or the CMC in Beechwood, than in any of the 'smaller venues' elsewhere.  

Seriously.  Who really goes to Trenton?  Not many.  (Although the Air Force Museum is a nice visit)


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## Shamrock (14 Nov 2010)

I vote Ottawa.  Ensure it is somewhere it can be incorporated with the NCR Remembrance Day ceremony.


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## vonGarvin (14 Nov 2010)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> I vote Ottawa.  Ensure it is somewhere it can be incorporated with the NCR Remembrance Day ceremony.


I disagree.  As far as I know, there is but one monument in Ottawa that is "national", and it currently commemorates the fallen of WW1, WW2 and Korea (as far as I understand it).  I found a monument dedicated to the Boer War in Confederation Park, and the Korean War-specific monument is in Brampton.





			
				mover1 said:
			
		

> No its still called Highway 2 its not Repatriation Row. I have heard in circles that that is what people want to call that stretch of road. I think its a dumb idea.  it only focuses in on loss. Who wants to deploy on a potentially dangerous mission and travel down a street called Repatriation Row.
> I can see it now.
> "Excuse me can you direct me and my family to 2 AMU I am deploying to Africa and I need to catch my plane"
> "Why yes travel down the highway of Heroes and at the end you go to repatriation row. take right. drive down there until you hit Legless lane and once you get there enter into the PTSD memorial parking lot.  and your there at 2 AMU. Thanks for your service and safe"
> ...


So, by your logic, the cenotaphs bearing the names of our fallen should be eliminated, and only put the names of those who came home on them?
We should NEVER forget our losses, ever.  But as I was just saying, I was referring to that stretch of road how it is known colloquially.

Anyway, I was thinking of this green space here


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Anyway, I was thinking of this green space here



That greeen space is at the end of the runway.  Perhaps up the road at the museum would be more fitting and not require moving should the runway need extending.

I was thinking of this location at the National Military Cemetery.


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## mariomike (14 Nov 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I was thinking of this location at the National Military Cemetery.



I notice a small white wooden temporary cross in the right forground. It's a beautiful place that brings Canadians together.


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2010)

The National Military Cemetery in Beechwood Cemetery is one of the numerous locations for Rememberance Day ceremonies.


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## Kat Stevens (14 Nov 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Why is everyone against putting them in Ottawa?  I am sure more people will be able to visit them at the CWM or the CMC in Beechwood, than in any of the 'smaller venues' elsewhere.
> 
> Seriously.  Who really goes to Trenton?  Not many.  (Although the Air Force Museum is a nice visit)



So the objective is to make it a tourist attraction?  Silly me, I thought it was a memorial.  If we want "asses in seats", lets put it in a downtown Montreal metro station.  Then you can pick up a souvenir spoon, get a hotdog or some candy floss, maybe a "I saw the Afghan war dead memorial" tee shirt.


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2010)

Kat

Would it be better to put it at the end of the lane to your place, somewhere where fewer than ten people will know how to locate it without a Geocache program?

Why not around the graves of those who are memorialized on the monuments?  A place where the families would come and remember.


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## Kat Stevens (14 Nov 2010)

I get what your saying, but why must it be Ottawa?  Why do they get the corner on the memorial market?  Anyone who was a soldier through the late 70s, 80s and early 90s knows just how little that sucking black hole in the centre of the country gave a crap about us, and should be repulsed by the idea.  How many people would get to see it in Ottawa?  People from Ottawa, awfully nice for the rest of us.  I'm as likely to go to Trenton as I am Ottawa, more so, in fact.  Ottawa has no link to those particular dead, other than sending them there.  There is a real link to Trenton.


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## vonGarvin (14 Nov 2010)

George
If that runway needs extending, it would block a major North/South route at that end.  If we need longer runways (it's long enough for our Globemasters, and for Galaxies that have landed, and taken off successfully, from there), then they could always go the other way.

Now, without getting into a "why not Ottawa" debate, I would offer up instead "why Trenton".  As stated, that is the start point for the Highway of Heroes, and every one of our fallen, and their families, have passed through there.  This is where they were reunited with their loved ones, and as such, I feel that the honour to remember the fallen be in Trenton.


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2010)

If it wasn't for the fact that we have in the last ten years or so set up the National Military Cemetery, sort of like Arlington in Washington, I wouldn't have any objections to where they would go and I wouldn't have suggested it.  If the memorials were Regimentally or Unit specifice, I would suggest they go to the Unit.  As they aren't, I am not really sure where they should go to find a "National" resting place.  The CWM or NMC seem to be the best candidates to fit the bill as a "National" location.  The location of the National Air Force Museum of Canada doesn't quite fill a "National" military criteria being focused on the Airforce, but would still be an acceptable location.  

In the end, it is a tough decision.  Should the memorials go to Ottawa, Trenton, Valcartier, Petawawa, Edmonton, Regina, St John's, Norman Wells, or where ever, is a debatable question that I am sure will not appease any majority from anywhere in the land.

I just don't want to see them land up in a storage box, in the back of some Hangar 16, in some unknown location.


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## vonGarvin (14 Nov 2010)

Here's how the thing could look, just an idea I came up with

There is ample parking just to the north of the drawing below, and people could park there if they wished to visit and pay tribute at the Monument.

The walking entrance is from the east, off of RCAF Road.

There is a circular path around the monument, to represent the completion of the circle of life, the reunion of the fallen with their loved ones.

There are 13 mature maples around the outside of the path, to represent each of Canada's provinces and territories.

On the inside of the path are individual markers, with brief remarks about the fallen.  Stuff like their home town, maybe some snippets of noteworthy things from their lives, whatever.  Each is individual, just as each of the fallen were.

The monument is simply the "one" we remember from Camp Mirage.


I think that Trenton is fitting for all the right reasons for this monument.  Though KAF was the start for their journey home, the former place for the monument, Camp Mirage, was also a transition point.  

Anyway, my $0.02


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## Kirkhill (14 Nov 2010)

I see what folks are saying about leaving the monuments in Afghanistan.

Stipulated: the monuments should come home.

Unfortunately Canada is a big country.  If the monuments are to be collocated then it will require a pilgrimage for much of the Canadian and Forces communities to see them.  And unless they are located at a base they won't be saluted on a daily basis by their friends as they pass by.

Kat, if they don't put them in Ottawa then its going to be a pilgrimage to Trenton, Gagetown, Petawawa, Valcartier or Edmonton. If they don't put them in the National War Museum then Newfoundlanders the served in Pet could find themselves having to come out to the Museum of the Regiments in Calgary to visit them.

There is no good place.  There is only a least worst place and for good or ill Ottawa is the Capital of the Nation, it is a military town, it has a garrison, it has the National Cemetery.


If the monuments are to come home then I think George has the right of it with the cemetery in Ottawa. 


Could "copies" of the monuments - or at least echoes - be made and distributed to the major garrisons and Trenton, and perhaps, even, keep one in Kandahar?


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## Old Sweat (14 Nov 2010)

Let us not forget that each of these fallen Canadians had a home town, and that it is very probable that their names have already been added to the local war memorials. Certainly that is what has happened here in North Grenville, where the name of Private Blake Williamson of Charles Company was engraved on our war memorial along with the title "Afghanistan."

Ottawa is, I believe, the place for the national memorial, but I am torn between the War Museum and the National Military Cemetery.


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## jollyjacktar (14 Nov 2010)

Kirkhill,  it's a big country.  The fallen have come from across it.  It doesn't matter where you would put the memorial, folks will have to travel to see it.  

When I first saw this topic my initial reaction of locale was Trenton.  That is where they first touched down on home soil, where their family met them.  There is that connection for all concerned.  Screw Ottawa!  Ottawa has used us for pawns extensively at their leisure for their own ends. Look at what is happening now with all the different parties on the mission extension, makes me somewhat ill.  Personally speaking, if I was on that memorial I would not want it to end up in Ottawa.


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## vonGarvin (14 Nov 2010)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Ottawa is, I believe, the place for the national memorial, but I am torn between the War Museum and the National Military Cemetery.


I agree that a national memorial ought to be in the nation's capital.  As for the current monuments I don't feel that they suffice as a national memorial, but rather: where do we put these existing monuments that have to come home?

For the one that was in Mirage, I offer up Trenton as the logical choice for the reasons I stated above.


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## The Bread Guy (14 Nov 2010)

While I'd prefer small local monuments across Canada, the family dynamics may make it difficult to pick the best spot for each fallen.

If the original monument in question was at a transit base, it makes sense to me moving it to Trenton, another transit base of sorts for the fallen.


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2010)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> When I first saw this topic my initial reaction of locale was Trenton.  That is where they first touched down on home soil, where their family met them.  There is that connection for all concerned.  Screw Ottawa!  Ottawa has used us for pawns extensively at their leisure for their own ends. Look at what is happening now with all the different parties on the mission extension, makes me somewhat ill.  Personally speaking, if I was on that memorial I would not want it to end up in Ottawa.



 ???

What does the politics of our politicos have to do with it.  If you want to get that way then the whacked out politicians in BC negate any monument going there.  Same can be said for Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and many other provincial politicians.  Dan Williams has been such a meathead, do we want to send anything his way?  From coast to coast we have bumbling fumbling politicians.  I don't see what your point is.........or do you just equate the Nation's Capital as being the essence and prime focus of your political bias.   The Nations Capital isn't made up solely of the political hacks you so despise.


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## HavokFour (14 Nov 2010)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The Governing Parties of Canada have used us for pawns extensively at their leisure for their own ends. Look at what is happening now with all the different parties on the mission extension, makes me somewhat ill.  Personally speaking, if I was on that memorial I would not want it to end up on Parliament Hill.



Fixed that for you.

Regards,
An Ottawan


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## jollyjacktar (14 Nov 2010)

HavokFour said:
			
		

> Fixed that for you.
> 
> Regards,
> An Ottawan



Ta.  Havok, all PC'd now.  Nothing against the general run of the mill, Ottawan.   My apologies, a knee jerk reaction (and yes, George I was being a jerk too) as I equate in my mind's eye the Hill and all it entails when "Ottawa" comes to mind.

George, why should everything go to the Nation's Capital automatically?  There is plenty there already, National Cemetery, CWM, etc etc.   I stand by my agreement on Trenton.  That is where they came home to first and connects us all, fallen, family's, comrades, Canadians.


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## George Wallace (14 Nov 2010)

How about CFB Kingston, at RMC or out front of the Div HQ?

One location would be influencing the minds of new young O/Cdts.  The other would be in the minds of the planners of other expeditions.


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## mover1 (14 Nov 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> So, by your logic, the cenotaphs bearing the names of our fallen should be eliminated, and only put the names of those who came home on them?
> We should NEVER forget our losses, ever.  But as I was just saying, I was referring to that stretch of road how it is known colloquially.
> 
> Anyway, I was thinking of this green space here




Dude ya lost me on the first part. :-\

 All I was saying was please don't refer to Highway 2 as Repatriation Row that name is something that was started by a small group of individuals. (I am thinking the CAV) and its not garnering a lot of public support.  We here in Trenton call it Highway 2 no one really calls it Repat Row.


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## NavyShooter (14 Nov 2010)

I think Trenton, rather than Ottawa.  While the CWM is nice, it's a civilian organization, and I think this should be kept in the "family."  

Brookwood was a peaceful spot when I last visited, but it is a spot that's both privately controlled and wide open to the public....some folks may not have the best intentions.  The day I visited, I spoke with the staff at Brookwood about one of the Contractors who was working on-site, and while working, did something that was, well, thoughtless disregard rather than willful damage.  The staff promised to have a word with the man about it.  I'd be concerned that if the monument was in a solely public location like Brookwood, there may be greater opportunity for harm to come to it, either through disregard, or willful damage.

Both CWM and Brookwood, while "appropriate" are not under the eyes of the CF, and I'm thinking that's important.

I also wonder about the timing of the intended return.

Is it going to be shipped home when the Camp is closed?  Or is it going to move to the new base-camp (presuming that there will be a new one, especially with the discussed "extension" of the mission.)

If it does come home is it at the end of the "Combat" phase?  

Suppose we end up having troops over there like we did in Cyprus?  When is the right time to bring it home? 

As a sailor, I'm a relative outsider looking in at this, but those questions occurred to me as I perused this thread.  

I fear that whomever may take over the current site after we leave will not be as understanding as the German army in WWII when they took France and left the Vimy (and other) monuments to the fallen untouched and undamaged. 

I think Trenton is an appropriate place for it to move to, and yes, in a relatively accessible but secured location, perhaps the base museum.

If I'm out of my lane with these questions and thoughts, feel free to steer me back, it's just my thoughts and ramblings.

NS


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## Kiwi99 (15 Nov 2010)

Why not put it in jack Laytons or Iggys front yard, so everyday when they walk outside they can see the names of real Canadians, citizens with a set of plums etc.


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## jollyjacktar (15 Nov 2010)

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> Why not put it in jack Laytons or Iggys front yard, so everyday when they walk outside they can see the names of real Canadians, citizens with a set of plums etc.



 :cheers:


----------



## George Wallace (15 Nov 2010)

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> Why not put it in jack Laytons or Iggys front yard, so everyday when they walk outside they can see the names of real Canadians, citizens with a set of plums etc.



You are downright EVIL.    :nod:


----------



## Edward Campbell (15 Nov 2010)

Taliban Jack's constituency office is here. Sadly, there's not much room right there but there is a nice piece of grass just a few metres away, at Queen Alexandra Public School - maybe the good folks in the Trinity-Spadina riding, who consistently vote for Layton, would be good custodians of a memorial.


----------



## mariomike (15 Nov 2010)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> - maybe the good folks in the Trinity-Spadina riding, who consistently vote for Layton, would be good custodians of a memorial.



Although small geographically, it is very diverse. U of T ( the student vote ), Skydome, CNE, CN Tower, Metro Convention Centre, Kensington Market, Honest Ed's, Chinatown, Koreatown, Little Italy, Little Portugal, the Annex...

It's not unusual to see NDP, Liberal and Tory signs on the same lawn. 

West of Bathurst, I would say mostly Liberal lawn signs. Joe Foti had an annual Bar-B-Q in his backyard that was famous. 

Algonquin and Ward's Islands have a small but very political population that provides many campaign workers for the New Democrats. Certainly "a nice piece of grass".


----------



## Danjanou (15 Nov 2010)

Der Panzerkommandant.... said:
			
		

> When the Taliban take over again, because of short-sightedness of politicians, they will be destroyed. Remember the Buddha in central Afghanistan?
> 
> I can't see it surviving.
> 
> ...



I tend to agree. Much as I would like to see it stay there, this is not like the CWGC sites in Europe, Asia, and/or the Mid East.

When the Legion was forced to leave Algeria in the 1960's they careflly disassembled all their monuments and took them with theri artifacts back to France where they found new homes. The Rhodeisan Light Infantry also smuggled their beloved "Troopie" monument out of Zimbabwe when Mugabe took over knowing he planned to desecrate it. The statue is now in a park in England.

The War Museum, the National Cemetary, or somewhere in Trenton would seem appropriate to me.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (15 Nov 2010)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> My Front yard.
> 
> I live 2 blocks away from one of the bridges that passes over the Highway of heroes.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't that upset the staff, I hear that they are not all that keen on the subject of the military and current ops.


----------



## ModlrMike (15 Nov 2010)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that upset the staff, I hear that they are not all that keen on the subject of the military and current ops.



Who gives a sh**? They can voice their displeasure at the ballot box like the rest of us if they don't like it. The CWM is the perfect place for the originals!

Now you may have been being facetious, but I'm not.


----------



## HavokFour (15 Nov 2010)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that upset the staff, I hear that they are not all that keen on the subject of the military and current ops.



Makes you wonder why their working at the _War_ Museum...


----------



## George Wallace (15 Nov 2010)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that upset the staff, I hear that they are not all that keen on the subject of the military and current ops.



You are thinking of their "Masters" at the Museum of Civilization.


----------



## mariomike (15 Nov 2010)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> I fear that whomever may take over the current site after we leave will not be as understanding as the German army in WWII when they took France and left the Vimy (and other) monuments to the fallen untouched and undamaged.



Even now, there are Canadian World War graves in Germany and Japan. German POWs are interred in Kitchener, Ontario.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (15 Nov 2010)

Fact of the matter is that, the enemies in those conflicts were ACTUALLY civilized (to a degree) militaries (with uniforms, governments, rules etc), not just a rag tag bunch of "religious" zealots trying to eradicate everything WESTERN.

These people crashed planes loaded with innocent civilians into buildings, they use little kids as bombs, etc....you think they would honour the sanctity of those monuments?

I certainly don't.


----------



## tomahawk6 (15 Nov 2010)

Being an outsider my suggestion would be to leave the memorial in place. The memories of the fallen live on with their families and their comrades. Their names are forever memorialized in their respective Regimental histories. As long as Canada remains free their sacrifice will not have been in vain. What better legacy can a soldier leave behind ?


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Nov 2010)

People are more likely to travel the 401 and take a 20 minute detour to see something in Trenton rather than Get off the 417 and try to navigate through Ottawa. Otttawa traffic is insane.  
401 See's more cross Canada traffic than the 417.
Imagine putting it at NDMC or NDHQ? Not very user friendly places to try and visit.
Chances of the monument getting defaced in Ottawa compared to Trenton.


----------



## Michael OLeary (17 Nov 2010)

Conversely, those who visit Ottawa to see the War Museum constitute an audience with specific interests that would include seeing such a monument.



> The War Museum has become the second most-visited attraction in the National Capital Region, going from around 120,000 visitors at its previous location on Sussex Drive to some 500,000 visitors yearly in its new home.



http://www.museedelaguerre.ca/cwm/media/press-releases/2010/the-canadian-war-museum-is-5-years-old


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## Edward Campbell (17 Nov 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> People are more likely to travel the 401 and take a 20 minute detour to see something in Trenton rather than Get off the 417 and try to navigate through Ottawa. Otttawa traffic is insane.
> 401 See's more cross Canada traffic than the 417.
> Imagine putting it at NDMC or NDHQ? Not very user friendly places to try and visit.
> Chances of the monument getting defaced in Ottawa compared to Trenton.




Without getting into specifics of this place vs. that, I like Grimaldus' idea of putting it where a whole lot of Canadians are likely to see it without having to make a special trip. Although it is fairly ON/QC oriented a small park at a public rest stop on/near the 401, or something like that somewhere (e.g. Hy 2 in AB), has merit.


----------



## vonGarvin (17 Nov 2010)

Now, my recommendation wasn't for a national Afghan War monument: that clearly needs to be designed and erected in Ottawa, our national capital.  My recommendation was for the one specific monument that used to be at Camp Mirage.  That one monument I think deserves to be placed in Trenton, in the same place (and manner) as I previously pointed out.  Its purpose I see as a memorial for the fallen.  An Afghan War Monument in Ottawa would serve to commemorate all who served, and the sacrifices they and their families made on behalf of the country.


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## jollyjacktar (17 Nov 2010)

Yes, when I was thinking of the memorial it was the one at CM.  It belongs at Trenton.  Continuity.  You've said it the way I should have earlier Techno.


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## George Wallace (17 Nov 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> People are more likely to travel the 401 and take a 20 minute detour to see something in Trenton rather than Get off the 417 and try to navigate through Ottawa.



I personally don't like to get off the 401 for any other reason than get gas at a rest platz and my final destination.   Twenty minutes would turn into a much longer time for me, when I get lost trying to find said monument(s).
  
 ;D





			
				Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Chances of the monument getting defaced in Ottawa compared to Trenton.



Monuments getting defaced happens everywhere.  Chances are no more likely in Ottawa, than anywhere else in Canada.  

Perhaps we should put them in Holland.  The Dutch respect our monuments and graves much more than Canadians do.    >


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## mariomike (17 Nov 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Perhaps we should put them in Holland.  The Dutch respect our monuments and graves much more than Canadians do.    >



Regarding Holland. ( Which many already know. )
General H.D.G. Crerar, who commanded Canadian land forces in Europe, ordered that Canadian soldiers were not to be buried in German soil. It is believed that only one Canadian soldier from the Second World War is interred in Germany. 
However, many Canadian airmen are in the less visited ( especially by Canadian media ) CWGC cemeteries in Germany:

"Many of the Canadian airmen killed in bombing raids over Germany are buried in the war cemeteries at Reichswald Forest and Rheinberg, near the Dutch border, Berlin, and Durnbach near Munich.":
http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/Canada%20MG.pdf


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## Sapplicant (17 Nov 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> Chances of the monument getting defaced



Considering the location I've seen mulled over here the most is the grounds at War Museum, I'd tend to agree with you. Remember, the grounds are used throughout the summer for various music festivals, and that would make the Mirage Monument a VERY easy target for the various "individuals" these festivals attract. One exceptionally charismatic "Anti-Bush sponsored war" rant from one of the red-eyed longhair'd "artists" is all it would take for the thing to be smashed to bits. 

I'm not opposed to the idea of an Afghan War monument in Ottawa, but the monument we're speaking of was, in essence, built FOR THE SOLDIERS of Canada in Afghanistan. With that in mind, I actully believe it should be relocated to the CFLRS, for every new recruit into our Forces to see and appreciate. Call me what you will, but I believe that would be the most effective, and proper location.

I know many people think "Trenton" because that's where the repatriation happened. Consider this; the fallen began their lives as soldiers at BMQ at a recruit school. This war has shown what our soldiers, and country for that matter, are made of and how dedicated they are. This is where the "making of a soldier" begins.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (17 Nov 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I personally don't like to get off the 401 for any other reason than get gas at a rest platz and my final destination.   Twenty minutes would turn into a much longer time for me, when I get lost trying to find said monument(s).
> 
> ;D
> 
> ...



Its the Taliban...i think they will deface it differently then some unruly drunken teenagers...BIG difference, I didn't think I needed to explain something so utterly simple to fellow grown ups.


----------



## Kat Stevens (17 Nov 2010)

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> Considering the location I've seen mulled over here the most is the grounds at War Museum, I'd tend to agree with you. Remember, the grounds are used throughout the summer for various music festivals, and that would make the Mirage Monument a VERY easy target for the various "individuals" these festivals attract. One exceptionally charismatic "Anti-Bush sponsored war" rant from one of the red-eyed longhair'd "artists" is all it would take for the thing to be smashed to bits.
> 
> I'm not opposed to the idea of an Afghan War monument in Ottawa, but the monument we're speaking of was, in essence, built FOR THE SOLDIERS of Canada in Afghanistan. With that in mind, I actully believe it should be relocated to the CFLRS, for every new recruit into our Forces to see and appreciate. Call me what you will, but I believe that would be the most effective, and proper location.
> 
> I know many people think "Trenton" because that's where the repatriation happened. Consider this; the fallen began their lives as soldiers at BMQ at a recruit school. This war has shown what our soldiers, and country for that matter, are made of and how dedicated they are. This is where the "making of a soldier" begins.



Plenty of reservists names are on that thing, and they never set foot in st Jean.  Trenton is the ONLY place they ALL have in common.


----------



## Sapplicant (17 Nov 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Plenty of reservists names are on that thing, and they never set foot in st Jean.  Trenton is the ONLY place they ALL have in common.



True. Some reg force members also do BMQ at other locations, such as Borden. I'm not saying Trenton is a bad idea, because it isn't. In fact, that's where I believe it will end up finding a home.

That said, all of them were also soldiers. As is pretty much anyone going to CFLRS, and a lot of people will. Especially those soldiers who lead others. Afghanistan, like it or not, isn't exactly a "popular war". That would serve as a staunch reminder of the job soldiers do, and do very well. It doesn't matter if the Queen and the PM are the ONLY person who supports the cause, we're their fists. 

That said, the fallen should not be considered "reminders". Just seemed like a good idea when I thought of it. So I guess I probably don't know what in the f**k I'm talking about and should stop typing.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Nov 2010)

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> .... all of them were also soldiers. As is pretty much anyone going to CFLRS, and a lot of people will. Especially those soldiers who lead others ....


To expand on GAP's comment, not ALL the fallen went through CFLRS, and not ALL the leaders went through CFLRS for their leadership training.  IF we answer the question "what piece of ground has a connection to all of the fallen?", outside of Afghanistan or UAE, then Trenton is where they've ALL been.

That said, other questions to consider:
- Where can the most people most easily grieve/pay respects?
- Where can the most people _closest to the fallen_ most easily grieve/pay respects?
- Where would there be maximum visibility?

All questions to be considered by those higher than my pay grade, but just thrown out there for discussion.


----------



## Danjanou (17 Nov 2010)

Actually with the caveats re not all trained there noted, Sapplicant's idea does have some merit. 

IIRC the IDF Para Recruits are taken to Masada, just to show them what is expected of them in regards to being a soldier. Legionnaires are shown Capt Danjou's wooden hand which is located in the museum at their recruit base. There is a precedent for this.

I also support the idea of a National Afghan War Monument in Ottawa at a suitable time in the future, and perhaps Beechwood would be more appropriate than the CWM.


----------



## Edward Campbell (17 Nov 2010)

Eventually there should (almost certainly will) be pressure to add 2002-2014 to the National War Memorial. The dates commemorating World War II (1939–1945) and Korea (1950–1953) were added in 1982. 

There are several _particular_ memorials in Ottawa, some, quite close to the National War Memorial, others farther afield.

If we are talking about two memorials, one from KAF and the other from Camp Mirage, then there are two choices for location, as others have already mentioned.


----------



## Sapplicant (17 Nov 2010)

There are 2 monuments. Wow, I REALLY didn't know WTF I was talking about. Serves me right for not reading closely enough.

KAF monument to Trenton.

Camp Mirage cairn to CFLRS.

Seems reasonable enough, eh?


----------



## Danjanou (17 Nov 2010)

The final decision should perhaps rest with two groups, the Next of Kin of those names on the monuments  and the CF Service Members especially those who served alongside the fallen.

Perhaps the best monument to them is the fact that we are free to have a rational debate on this ( or any other) subject.


----------



## Navalsnpr (17 Nov 2010)

CFB Trenton would be my first pick, in a place on base that is accessible to the entire public to view. If not there, then the National Military cemeteries in Ottawa.


----------



## The Bread Guy (17 Nov 2010)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> The final decision should perhaps rest with two groups, the Next of Kin of those names on the monuments  and the CF Service Members especially those who served alongside the fallen.


Agreed.  Any ideas on how do you read a collective position re:  location?


----------



## Edward Campbell (17 Nov 2010)

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> There are 2 monuments. Wow, I REALLY didn't know WTF I was talking about. Serves me right for not reading closely enough.
> 
> KAF monument to Trenton.
> 
> ...









*Kandahar Airfield Memorial*
The memorial, made of marble and slate, consists of individual plaques to each of the Canadian Forces members killed in Afghanistan as well as the Canadian Diplomat, Glyn Berry. Also present on the memorial site are an aboriginal totem and a flag stand with the image of the Joint Task Force Afghanistan logo.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/youth/sub.cfm?source=Memorials/asia_afr/afghanistan






*Memorial at Camp Mirage*
The memorial at Camp Mirage is located in a public area of Camp Mirage and it is dedicated to all of the Canadian dead suffered in Afghanistan and bears small plaques for each fatality.
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/youth/sub.cfm?source=Memorials/asia_afr/afghanistan


Once again, I have no preferences re: one location over the other but there are, actually, three memorials - the other being the Memorial Inuksuk:





*Memorial Inuksuk* 
The memorial inuksuk is located inside the perimeter of the airfield’s boardwalk area. The inuksuk was constructed out of eight rock slabs gathered from the area around the airport and a nearby village. The inuksuk itself is oriented so that it "points" in the direction of Edmonton, the home station of 3 PPCLI. The platform surrounding the inuksuk bears plaques on all four sides dedicated to the memory of Canadian, American and other coalition soldiers killed in the fighting in Afghanistan.

The memorial inuksuk was built by members of the 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, Battle Group specifically members of "A" Company, 3 PPCLI, the battalion's pioneer platoon and military engineers in response to the four Canadian fatalities suffered at Tarnak Farm on 17 April 2002. The inuksuk and surrounding memorial construction was dedicated on 16 July 2002 in the waning days of the initial Canadian presence at the Kandahar military base.

It, the inuksuk, has a somewhat different history and the PPCLI might well have a special claim on it.


----------



## HavokFour (17 Nov 2010)

And interesting thought popped into my head. Perhaps Omar Khadr should be made to clean and polish the memorials every morning at 5am sharp _for the rest of his life_ as part of his punishment?


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## MJP (17 Nov 2010)

HavokFour said:
			
		

> And interesting thought popped into my head. Perhaps Omar Khadr should be made to clean and polish the memorials every morning at 5am sharp _for the rest of his life_ as part of his punishment?


Although a fitting punishment....I abhor the thought of him touching a memorial to soldiers that fought and died for the values we cherish.


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## ModlrMike (17 Nov 2010)

I've read most of the posts on the subject, and here's my proposal:

1. Mirage goes to Trenton;
2. KAF goes to Beechwood; and
3. The dates 2000 - 2014 get inscribed on the National War Memorial.


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## krustyrl (17 Nov 2010)

.... IF...2014 is when Canada is "actually "out of there.!              :yellow:


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## The Bread Guy (23 Jun 2011)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I've read most of the posts on the subject, and here's my proposal:
> 
> *1. Mirage goes to Trenton;*
> 2. KAF goes to Beechwood; and
> 3. The dates 2000 - 2014 get inscribed on the National War Memorial.


#1 appears to be happening - this from _The Trentonian_:


> Three granite monuments that stood in a desert air base used as a staging area for Canadian Forces entering Afghanistan have found a home.
> 
> On the memorials are plaques remembering the 156 Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan.
> 
> ...


----------



## MikeL (26 Jun 2011)

Has anyone heard what is happening to the memorial in Ma'Sum Ghar?  Will that be brought back to Canada as well?


----------



## brihard (26 Jun 2011)

No, they've buried it on location.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/1004958--memorial-to-fallen-canadian-soldiers-buried-at-afghan-base

At first I had issue with this- but upon reflection, the bodies themselves were repatriated to be buried at home. In past wars our fallen have been laid to rest in cemeteries upon the ground they fought and died for. In the modern context, burying the stones at Ma'sum Ghar is not a bad analogue.


----------



## wildman0101 (29 Jun 2011)

Just my thought's.
Khandahar Air Memorial to Trenton Air force Base Trento.
Mirage to Ottawa- All Canadian's inscribed there.
Inuksuk-Edmonton 3 PPCLI
Ma'sum Ghar Royal 22e Regt (Van Doo's)
However they chose to honour thier comrade's Memorial and 
leave it in Afganistan, and that is appropriate and very honour-
able as they paid the ultimate sacrifice there serving Canada.
So having said my thought's,,, my heart goe's out to all who 
have served and made that supreme sacrifice to Canada and 
the world to make this a free and better place. To those who 
came home wounded, to those who came home suffering and
had to restructure your live's to to lost limb's other. I have not 
forgotten you and I will not let Canada forget also.
SALUTE Soldier's. Thank-you for carrying the torch and making 
Canada Proud.    
All the best,
Scoty B


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Jul 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ModlrMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Update:  New Trenton location for Mirage memorial unveiled today.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Jul 2011)

The KAF memorial should go to the War Museum

The Inukshuk as well.

My  :2c:


----------



## jollyjacktar (6 Jul 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The KAF memorial should go to the War Museum
> 
> The Inukshuk as well.
> 
> My  :2c:



I could not agree more, Jim.  That is a fitting place where they will be safe from vandalism and dishonour.


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Jul 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I could not agree more, Jim.  That is a fitting place where they will be safe from vandalism and dishonour.



I have a personal stake in this. Besides Mike, John Wayne Faught and CWO Girouard are there.


----------



## Webgear (6 Jul 2011)

The Inukshuk should go  to 3VP.


----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Nov 2011)

> The Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Peter MacKay, and Chief of the Defence Staff General Walt Natynczyk today announced that the Joint Task Force Afghanistan Cenotaph to Our Fallen, currently located at the Kandahar Air Field, will be brought home to an undetermined location in the nation’s capital.
> 
> (....)
> 
> ...


CF news release, 10 Nov 11

More info in Backgrounder here.

_Mod update:  As of 13 May 2015, neither of these links work anymore, but the material is available via archive.org here (news release) or here (backgrounder), or screen captures of the material can be downloaded here._


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Nov 2011)

I'm glad it is coming home.  It will be with mixed feelings when I see it again.  For me it is a powerful totem and never failed to bring my emotions roiling inside even though I saw it on a daily basis when in camp my last tour.   :brit poppy:


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (10 Nov 2011)

I thought of the places I think the big memorial should go. 
1) Main parade square at RMC so the future leaders see the cost of being a leader is not always pretty
2) I thought Kingson near the shoreline of Lake Ontario so it can stand with the memorial of our first war ( 1812) reminding us of the cost of being a free Nation.
3) Trenton as long as the public can see it and respect it.
 But since I read all the posts I read it is going to Ottawa, there is a square across from the National War Memorial that  has statues of of Historical Military  leaders and I feel it should go there and rest with the Heros of Canadian History.

The inuksuk should go home to PPCLI home and be on display outside the RSM's Office as reminder to everyone, sooner rather than later everyone has to see stand infront of the RSM and explain him or herself , be a good reminder of the Regiments current history  and it would be well care for I am sure.

The Reserve units who lost soldiers, should get castings made of the fallens names and the casting should be placed in the soldiers mess when everyone of that  mess will remember the Res Force is not a weekend warrior but it is a calling.

I wish I was able to write well enough to make my  thoughts make sense when read  but hope most people here get my thoughts and understand. 

If no one wants the memorials  in their backyard, I will gladly  give up some land in front of my  house on highway  60 and put all the memorials there and look after them forever, and make sure the fallen are always remembered.


----------



## dogger1936 (22 Nov 2011)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> 1) Main parade square at RMC so the future leaders see the cost of being a leader is not always pretty



That's one of the best idea's I've heard. Maybe on the outside of the Royal Military College Memorial Arch. Be a great symbol of the school days are over welcome to soldiering.


----------



## tristismilitis (24 Nov 2011)

http://thechronicleherald.ca/canada/32695-cenotaph-coming-home-kandahar

While some potential locations have apparently already been ruled out I am curious what others think about the most appropriate final destination for this cenotaph. 
It has become a widely recognized symbol of our losses during our years there and I hope a satisfactory location can be determined (sometimes I think it would be great if a poll like this were available on a larger scale to help the powers that be come to a decision that would please the majority). Hint hint. 

Edit: hyperlink modified.


----------



## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2011)

The National War Museum is the appropriate location. The fallen are all Canadians, and to put it in a place like RMC - which produces officers - I think would be a slap in the face to the NCMs.


----------



## armyvern (24 Nov 2011)

I have a little piece of it for you Jim.  

It *IS* going to Ottawa folks  .... drop all the other musings.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Nov 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> It *IS* going to Ottawa folks  .... drop all the other musings.


And poll edited to reflect that.

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## jollyjacktar (24 Nov 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The National War Museum is the appropriate location. The fallen are all Canadians, and to put it in a place like RMC - which produces officers - I think would be a slap in the face to the NCMs.



Well maybe not so much a slap in the face per se, but it would limit Canadian's exposure and opportunity to visit it.  I know I would not step a foot into the grounds at RMC, but I would go to the War Museum to see it.  Ottawa is the logical choice being the national capital.  Far better the politicians get reminded of the results of where they decide to send us in their stead.  Officers also are along for the ride with the rest of us too.  The Hill is the place that needs the gentle nudge IMHO,and contrary to FHG's suggestion which does have merit but not the impact.


----------



## armyvern (24 Nov 2011)

Comment added to reflect my vote in the poll:

Other: Currently sourcing NCR land with easy and convenient access to all and investigating options to create a park setting that will also house the KAF Monument. I _believe_ that is what they will eventually decide to go with. 

Nortel: Although an option, I _hear_ that access may be impeded for families who wish to visit (along with your average everyday Canadians as well) due to the campus' distance from the downtown core.

CWM/Beechwood: I _hear_ this isn't happening either as this war is not over yet --- 2014 until our Canadian folks are all back home.


Talk is that the Monument will go into LTS until suitable NCR land can be found; it has already been deconstructed here, is crated up and is being escorted back. I can perhaps find some of the TF photos of it's deconstruction.


Why is RMC getting any attention for a location still? It certainly shouldn't be --- Read about 5 posts down the statement from the MND stating that it would be going to Ottawa. 

The rest of you can vote as you wish, but I'm sticking with my vote  ...


----------



## HavokFour (24 Nov 2011)

Me and my grandmother were talking about this earlier this morning, she thinks the gardens at the Experimental Farm would be a nice place to put it because it is always being tended to year round.

Ultimately I agree with Jim, the War Museum is the best spot.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Nov 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> .... The Hill is the place that needs the gentle nudge IMHO ....


While senior decision makers are happy to share _good_ news on Parliament Hill, I'll bet a $50 donation to a military family charity that Parliament Hill is NOT where a memorial to war dead will end up.



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> .... Talk is that the Monument will go into LTS until suitable NCR land can be found; it has already been deconstructed here, is crated up and is being escorted back ....


A few hints from the Backgrounder (attached w/the news release in case the links above stop working) - highlights mine:


> .... *Consideration is also being given to having the cenotaph plaques available for public display at select military bases during the period in which a site in Ottawa is being assessed and prepared*.
> 
> On November 12th, the cenotaph will be dismantled and all components that can be removed and transported, will be returned to Canada. *The cenotaph will be carefully stored until an appropriate location within the National Capital Region can be identified: this will be the subject of consultations and advice from the National Capital Commission*. A detailed set of drawings and photos are being compiled in order to enable the cenotaph’s re-construction.
> 
> The cenotaph, at 21m by 8 m, was built with locally available materials in Kandahar, without an explicit intent for it to be relocated to Canada at the end of the combat mission.  Engineering assessments indicate that *some of its components may be too fragile to be moved in its entirety, nor is the cenotaph able to survive long-term exposure to Canadian temperature extremes* ....


----------



## jollyjacktar (24 Nov 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> While senior decision makers are happy to share _good_ news on Parliament Hill, I'll bet a $50 donation to a military family charity that Parliament Hill is NOT where a memorial to war dead will end up.



Not suggesting the Hill.  Just that the denizens of the Hill are the ones whom need to be reminded of the cost of their desires.  If it was in the NCR, it would be available for them to look and learn from.  I like the CWM as a safe location for it to be displayed out of the clutches of those whom might be tempted to desecrate it.


----------



## CountDC (24 Nov 2011)

museum - lot more visits so more visibility.  Noticed concern about Canadian weather being too harsh (since when?) - perhaps it could be sealed against the elements or located inside?

Beechwood - not as many visits but it would fit in nicely.  It is well maintained everytime I have been there - at least the military area.  

My vote is the museum for the exposure to the public and easier to find.  I still miss Beechwood half the time and end up turning around to get in there.

I also think they should update the current in Ottawa with the start date and leave the end date open to be added later.

You might actually be surprised by the support the military gets in Ottawa.  Many of the people appreciate us even if they do not agree with the government policy.  Most understand we are not the ones they have the issue with.  I have several times had someone at a bus stop or walking down the street say thank you for serving.   Even had an old native Canadian in the Rideau Centre shake my hand, tell me he likes and respects us but hates our government. Never had that anywhere else. Spit and name calling I have had - some people watch too much American TV (think Vietnam).


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## Canadian.Trucker (24 Nov 2011)

I agree with the original going to the National War Museum, it should be something to share with all Canadians so they can truly understand the sacrifice that was made on their behalf.  Same with the local cenotaphs that wish to add to the current monuments, provide them with a template so that there is uniformity but not limit it to just where they grew up/lived last etc.  As stated there could be multiple places due to a split family etc. that want to pay tribute to their heroes, and they shouldn't be limited.


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## The Bread Guy (24 Nov 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Not suggesting the Hill.  Just that the denizens of the Hill are the ones whom need to be reminded of the cost of their desires.  If it was in the NCR, it would be available for them to look and learn from.


Seen - thanks.


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## OldSolduer (24 Nov 2011)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I have a little piece of it for you Jim.
> 
> It *IS* going to Ottawa folks  .... drop all the other musings.



 Thank you Vern!!


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## tristismilitis (24 Nov 2011)

My concern with the National War Museum is twofold. First: the museum has said on several occasions that they do not wish to have a large permanent exhibit with regard to the Afghanistan mission (because it is the War museum, not the Afghanistan museum, that is why the fantastic display that had been there for a few years was dismantled and moved to Calgary). The cenotaph is not something I personally could handle being boxed up for storage and only brought out every so many years. 
Second: the museum requires an admission fee. Should it cost money for a citizen to go spend some time with this memorial? 
I do love the museum and indeed I go there annually when I am in Ottawa, but I'm just not sure it's the very best place without the above issues being resolved. 
I also visit Beechwood whenever I can (which is free and also a very important historical site) and in my mind's eye I have a picture of a solid style glass structure housing the cenotaph that would help protect the materials from the ice and snow. Just a thought. I'm open to others though I imagine the final say will be the NCC's.


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## The Bread Guy (24 Nov 2011)

tristismilitis said:
			
		

> .... Just a thought. I'm open to others though I imagine the final say will be the Government of Canada's, in consultation with NCC.


Fixed that for you.


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## tristismilitis (24 Nov 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Fixed that for you.



"The National Capital Commission (NCC) is a Crown corporation of the Government of Canada."

Figured that went without saying but thanks.  
My point was only that it would be good to hear other thoughts even though they may not have any impact on where the cenotaph's final home will be.


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## armyvern (24 Nov 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Thank you Vern!!



No problem.  :-*

I'll try to send you some pics of the marking, mapping, deconstruction and pack-up that occured. It was quite the engineering feat and the lads did an excellent job of respecting its significance. I also have a pic somewhere for you of Mike on November 11th - I left him with my poppy as did Krystie.


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## The Bread Guy (24 Nov 2011)

tristismilitis said:
			
		

> "The National Capital Commission (NCC) is a Crown corporation of the Government of Canada."
> 
> Figured that went without saying but thanks.
> My point was only that it would be good to hear other thoughts even though they may not have any impact on where the cenotaph's final home will be.


I was only making the point that the NCC isn't where the buck stops.

Agreed it's good to hear other ideas, and this is a good place to seek this kind of input - thanks for posting the survey to get things going.


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## The Bread Guy (4 Dec 2015)

Note:  To avoid confusion, this story/update is about the separate, stand-alone monument to the mission announced in May 2014 (news release also attached in case link doesn't work), NOT:

the Kandahar cenotaph returning (at last word, Ottawa area's been decided, but not where); or
the dedication of the National War Memorial to include Afghanistan.



> A new military memorial in Ottawa to Canada’s mission in Afghanistan is behind schedule, raising doubts about whether it will be completed as planned for Canada’s sesquicentennial in 2017.
> 
> The ministerial briefing book for Canadian Heritage Minister Mélanie Joly describes the memorial as “a high profile commemoration” and says the department plans to launch a national design competition in the fall of 2015.
> 
> ...


Curious to hear from folks in the Ottawa area:  how publicly visible is the proposed site vs. the alternate site NCC seemed to consider at Elgin, Albert and Slater streets?  From the graphic in the story, the Richmond Landing site doesn't look all that public or easily accessible.


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## Blackadder1916 (22 May 2019)

They've finally decided on a place to put the cenotaph and it didn't turn out to be that good a decision.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/afghanistan-war-memorial-cenotaph-1.5143986


> *'An insult': Families of dead soldiers offended at being left out of low-key Afghanistan memorial event
> 
> *DND says it wanted a 'humble, internal event ... to ensure proper reverence'
> 
> ...


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## Cloud Cover (23 May 2019)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Comment added to reflect my vote in the poll:
> 
> Other: Currently sourcing NCR land with easy and convenient access to all and investigating options to create a park setting that will also house the KAF Monument. I _believe_ that is what they will eventually decide to go with.
> 
> ...



Good call on the misfire.


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## Jarnhamar (23 May 2019)

Top soldier admits handling of Kandahar memorial 'hit a nerve;' vows access

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/top-soldier-admits-handling-of-kandahar-memorial-hit-a-nerve-vows-access/ar-AABKw7M


Can't seem to cut and past. 
Some of my favorite quotes from our top soldier. 

"To ensure a dignified dedication service, a quiet, limited service was held in honour of those we lost "

"It was a beautiful ceremony but it was absent the families and the wounded"

And the knuckle biter on keeping it where it is.. 

"There's a certain elegance to that, because it's a constant reminder for those who work in the headquarters.... of the perils of war and the need to make good decisions around the committal of troops"


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## Remius (23 May 2019)

Given the difficulty of working with the anything in the NCR, ie NCC, City of Ottawa, GoC etc etc, someone probably thought this was the easiest route.  

I would imagine that the difficulty of finding the space and ensuring the upkeep and maintenance (someone has to pay for it) etc etc factored into a course of action that looked good on paper...but failed to take into account the people who had the more vested interest in this.  

To me the war museum would have been a no brainer and appropriate.  Easy access, open to the public and would those people that otherwise might have had a bit of ignorance in regards to Afghanistan.


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## FSTO (23 May 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> "There's a certain elegance to that, because it's a constant reminder for those who work in the headquarters.... of the perils of war and the need to make good decisions around the committal of troops"


Maybe. Once the neverending landscaping is complete. Or the building will be locked at all times.

I expect it to be moved due to the brooha this all caused. Repurposing the building and moving the monument will cost close to what a 3 story parkade would have cost at Carling.


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## daftandbarmy (23 May 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> To me the war museum would have been a no brainer and appropriate.  Easy access, open to the public and would those people that otherwise might have had a bit of ignorance in regards to Afghanistan.



This.  :nod:


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## The Bread Guy (24 May 2019)

The latest from the CDS (PDF attached in case link doesn't work for you):


> “To our beloved Memorial Cross Families, our honoured Veterans and all Canadians,
> 
> “The best of intentions have led to unintended harm. When it comes to the opening last week of the Afghanistan Memorial Hall at the new National Defence Headquarters, we unintentionally went down that path. We owe the family and friends of our Fallen, all who served in Afghanistan, and Canadians an apology for not properly including you and not properly communicating with you. I am truly sorry for our insensitivity and the pain, anger and frustration that this decision caused you. I accept full responsibility for it all.
> 
> ...


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## brihard (24 May 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Given the difficulty of working with the anything in the NCR, ie NCC, City of Ottawa, GoC etc etc, someone probably thought this was the easiest route.
> 
> I would imagine that the difficulty of finding the space and ensuring the upkeep and maintenance (someone has to pay for it) etc etc factored into a course of action that looked good on paper...but failed to take into account the people who had the more vested interest in this.
> 
> To me the war museum would have been a no brainer and appropriate.  Easy access, open to the public and would those people that otherwise might have had a bit of ignorance in regards to Afghanistan.



That was proposed, and the War Museum said 'no'. They won't errect a memorial to a specific conflict on their grounds, in order to avoid being seen as exclusionary. The public Afghanistan memorial is due to go up on the National Capital Commission lands nearby, but the NCC is notoriously slow to get anything done.


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## kratz (24 May 2019)

My thoughts, this is where there PAFO machine is chasing the tail.

If they had of issued press releases of the "temporary location" opening, invited a small "representative group" of family, this whole thing event wouldn't have made national news.

That whole transparency ahead of time, not afterwards with questions and hurt feelings.


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## Jarnhamar (24 May 2019)

CDS apology- sorry I don't buy it. 

To believe that explanation you would have to believe our leaders were too incompetent (I'd say stupid) to realize what the reaction would be from:
1. family of dead service members
2. wounded service members; and
3. the public.

I can't think of anyone who wouldn't have seen this reaction coming or surprised by it.  If our leaders didn't then maybe they shouldn't be planning missions, because this was quite the amateur mistake.


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## daftandbarmy (24 May 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> CDS apology- sorry I don't buy it.
> 
> To believe that explanation you would have to believe our leaders were too incompetent (I'd say stupid) to realize what the reaction would be from:
> 1. family of dead service members
> ...



Five phone calls asking the question 'What do you think?' would have helped....


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## The Bread Guy (30 May 2019)

The latest ...


> The memorial for those killed in Canada’s mission in Afghanistan at the new Department of Defence headquarters is to open to the public Friday afternoon, the department says.
> 
> People who aren’t military members, veterans or their families will have to register for visits in advance and be accompanied by Canadian Forces personnel, the department said Thursday.
> 
> ...


This, from the Info-machine ...


> The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces have established a system for escorted access to the Afghanistan Memorial Hall for the families of the fallen on a priority basis. These guided visits began on May 26, 2019, and will continue under separate arrangements.
> 
> In the meantime, members of the public are also invited to visit the Afghanistan Memorial Hall at the National Defence Headquarters (Carling) in Ottawa, beginning on May 31, 2019, at 3:30 p.m., to honour those who lost their lives during Canada’s mission in Afghanistan.
> 
> ...


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## Jarnhamar (30 May 2019)

Not to be a negative Nancy here but how does this reflect on the image of NDHQ personale and work load? We're taking CAF members away from their jobs to randomly escort people around and play tour guide. That's gotta be intrusive and disrupting, no? 
Will these be $100,000 a year captains?


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## garb811 (30 May 2019)

Ceremonial Guard and/or the NSP just got a new duty station...


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## Colin Parkinson (31 May 2019)

Class B slots I suppose or even a permanent staff of disabled veterans from Afghanistan?


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## garb811 (31 May 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> ...even a permanent staff of disabled veterans from Afghanistan?


This right here is a brilliant idea IMHO.


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## dimsum (31 May 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> This right here is a brilliant idea IMHO.



Definitely.  I would totally send that up the chain (if you're military) or suggest it publicly (if not military).


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## Jarnhamar (11 Jun 2019)

I heard the plan for summer is to rotate platoons +/- from Petawawa through Ottawa for a few weeks at a time to play tour guide. That's seems sustainable.


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## daftandbarmy (12 Jun 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I heard the plan for summer is to rotate platoons +/- from Petawawa through Ottawa for a few weeks at a time to play tour guide. That's seems sustainable.



... because the combat arms is so flush with troops that there's nowhere to keep them on base, right?  :sarcasm:


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## 211RadOp (15 Aug 2019)

> CANFORGEN 123/19 C ARMY 027/19 021225Z JUL 19
> 
> KANDAHAR CENOTAPH REDEDICATION CEREMONY AND PUBLIC VIEWING 17-18 AUGUST 2019
> 
> ...




http://vcds.mil.ca/apps/canforgens/default-eng.asp?id=123-19&type=canforgen


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## FSTO (15 Aug 2019)

So I'm watching from my office the stage, lights and sound system going up in front of the memorial. Is Nickleback playing at this thing? 

edit to add:
Holy crap there is TV cameras going up! They're doing a 180 from the first attempt. #OVERTHETOPTOAPOLOGIZEFORSCREWINGITUP!


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## daftandbarmy (15 Aug 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> So I'm watching from my office the stage, lights and sound system going up in front of the memorial. Is Nickleback playing at this thing?
> 
> edit to add:
> Holy crap there is TV cameras going up! They're doing a 180 from the first attempt. #OVERTHETOPTOAPOLOGIZEFORSCREWINGITUP!



Thank you for your service: https://inmilitary.com/why-saying-thank-you-for-your-service-offends-some-veterans/


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## OldSolduer (15 Aug 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> So I'm watching from my office the stage, lights and sound system going up in front of the memorial. Is Nickleback playing at this thing?
> 
> edit to add:
> Holy crap there is TV cameras going up! They're doing a 180 from the first attempt. #OVERTHETOPTOAPOLOGIZEFORSCREWINGITUP!



We’re arriving tomorrow. You got my interest. Updated please. 👍


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## Navy_Pete (15 Aug 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> So I'm watching from my office the stage, lights and sound system going up in front of the memorial. Is Nickleback playing at this thing?
> 
> edit to add:
> Holy crap there is TV cameras going up! They're doing a 180 from the first attempt. #OVERTHETOPTOAPOLOGIZEFORSCREWINGITUP!



Nothing says solemn memorial like fanfare and dog and pony shows!

Real shame this is at Carling; even without the access issue it's pretty remote. There are a few other memorials on Parliment directly across from the war memorial, no reason they couldn't have built another concrete pad and mounted it there outside. Not rocket surgery to protect it from weather if that's a concern, as they've already done that for similar memorials around Parliament with a glass cover on it. Find it hard to believe the War Museum also wouldn't take this in an instant, and with the staff time they'll spend on it over the years they could have funded a permanent installation there too.

Wonder if this is one of those things were you are already commited so can't drastically change course without admitting you were wrong.  Maybe it will get 'revisited' if there is a new MND/CDS.


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## FSTO (15 Aug 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> We’re arriving tomorrow. You got my interest. Updated please. 👍


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## OldSolduer (15 Aug 2019)

OMG who did they invite?


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## FSTO (15 Aug 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> OMG who did they invite?


I heard from an unconfirmed source that 6 family members per fallen were invited. Also there is rain and thunderstorms in the forecast for Sat afternoon. Bring some rain gear.


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## MJP (15 Aug 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> OMG who did they invite?



Roughly 1200 folks that include the families (bulk of invitees to include their escorts), then the heads of DND/CAF orgs plus a small smattering of VIPs.



			
				FSTO said:
			
		

> Also there is rain and thunderstorms in the forecast for Sat afternoon. Bring some rain gear.



Each seat will have a rain poncho and water


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## OldSolduer (15 Aug 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> I heard from an unconfirmed source that 6 family members per fallen were invited. Also there is rain and thunderstorms in the forecast for Sat afternoon. Bring some rain gear.


The six person family is true. We’re bringing five.
Me, Niner Domestic, our daughter Michelle and Carson and Stella.


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## FSTO (15 Aug 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The six person family is true. We’re bringing five.
> Me, Niner Domestic, our daughter Michelle and Carson and Stella.


Good to hear. Hoping the forecast changes for the better by Saturday.


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## OldSolduer (15 Aug 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Good to hear. Hoping the forecast changes for the better by Saturday.



Thank you. 

I have mixed emotions but looking forward to it.


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Aug 2019)

MJP said:
			
		

> Roughly 1200 folks that include the families (bulk of invitees to include their escorts), then the heads of DND/CAF orgs plus a small smattering of VIPs.



The families are the VIPs on this one.   :2c:


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## MJP (15 Aug 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The families are the VIPs on this one.   :2c:



They are the VVIPs but don't worry no one on the task thinks anyone else is more important than the families


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