# RE: Firemans Carry



## Iltis (12 Mar 2008)

Can anyone out there tell me if the Firemans carry is going to be thrown out of the testing, Don't you figure a Combat drag would be better. More real I'd say

     Thanks
     Iltis


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## Nfld Sapper (12 Mar 2008)

Little hard on the combats and the individual don't you think?


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## Armymedic (12 Mar 2008)

While the 'drag' is more realistic and much easier to accomplish, there is little or no push to change the firemans carry from a PT fitness standard. I heard of talk about people looking at it in favour of a more firemans' carry/drag, but it was mostly just talk.


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## George Wallace (13 Mar 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Little hard on the combats and the individual don't you think?



It would probably be done like the tests done for Police Forces, and other Emergency organizations.  You wouldn't have a real person, but a weighted dummy.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Mar 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You wouldn't have a real person, but a *weighted dummy*.



I can think of so many people who fit that desciption though...the rest of the comments that came to my pea brain would land me on the warning system so I had better  :-X (not in regards to anyone on this site).


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## Old Ranger (13 Mar 2008)

Like wise...


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## BDTyre (13 Mar 2008)

We had firemen tell us that the firemans' carry is one of the least ideal/suitable methods of transportting casualties.


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## OldSolduer (13 Mar 2008)

Weighted dummies? 

Yeah I could think of several that would fit that description.
On the more serious side, that portion of the BFT should be changed.


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## George Wallace (13 Mar 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> On the more serious side, that portion of the BFT should be changed.



Think about it.  15 Mags.  Body Armour. TacVest/whatever Rig. Wpn.  Some of the kit being worn will almost double the weight of a small person.  That alone makes one wonder why the Fireman's Carry is still being used.  Now it is just as painful on the guy being carried as the one carrying.  Now lets throw in the bullets on a two way range, and who wants to pick someone up or be carried in the air.  I think that this goes against what I was taught on my Safety Management Crse.   ;D


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## OldSolduer (13 Mar 2008)

OK TROOPS....helmets on!! :warstory:
I fireman carried my section 2 I/C who was 260-270 on a light day.
Then he put on his kit.....we're looking at over 300 pounds here....It was all I could do to accomplish it. I'm over 200 myself and this was a chore....
Have you ever tried to drag someone that big? or carry him?


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## PMedMoe (13 Mar 2008)

IMHO, I don't think that the Fireman's Carry is indicative of a person's fitness.  And even if it were, what are the odds that I am going to find someone my size and have to carry them 100 meters in one minute?  :   I have heard of units doing a "Casualty Carry", two people carrying one on a stretcher.


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## BDTyre (13 Mar 2008)

I'm sorry, I can't casevac you because you're not my size and I'd have to take you more than 100m.  ;D


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## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> Have you ever tried to drag someone that big? or carry him?



Drag is much easier then carry... one you break your back and is unable to defend yourself. The other, you can lay the casualty back on the ground, pop off a few, and drag on. JMO.


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## PMedMoe (13 Mar 2008)

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I can't casevac you because you're not my size and I'd have to take you more than 100m.  ;D



Well, not quite my point, but really what it comes down to, eh?  
Thank goodness for adrenaline!!


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## geo (13 Mar 2008)

Heh, the man is wearing a helmet, grab him by the ankles and start dragging.
So you come up to a staircase,.... so what, he's wearing a helmet!


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## Rodahn (13 Mar 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh, the man is wearing a helmet, grab him by the ankles and start dragging.
> So you come up to a staircase,.... so what, he's wearing a helmet!



I like the way you think Geo....  ;D


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## Old Ranger (13 Mar 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Drag is much easier then carry... one you break your back and is unable to defend yourself. The other, you can lay the casualty back on the ground, pop off a few, and drag on. JMO.



I can't remember the site, but I've see drag slings setups available. One type wasthat you wear one that can be attached to the person dragging you. Picture showed dragging and shooting. I'll try and find link.

http://www.narescue.com/Category.aspx?SID=1&Category_ID=140

And there it is, with a new picture


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## medicineman (13 Mar 2008)

I'm presonally more in favour of a drag - as mentioned earlier, much easier to do when someone is kitted up, it's somewhat safer, especially over uneven ground (I"ve dropped and been dropped because some smart ass decided to make us do it on a snow covered field that had a lot of ground squirrel dens) - not all that safe to have someone battle loaded fall on you because you twisted your ankle or hit a rut or couldn't see where you were going.  Forget the injuries to people's backs I've seen - and these are fit people - from doing fireman's carries.  Most frefighters won't do it with a dead weight casualty now - they drag them or do a two rescuer carry if they have to.  I used to teach people if they had to do a fireman's carry, they should de-kit the person as much as possible to give them a fighting chance of geeting them up and on- not easy when they have the tac vest and frag vest combo with strike plates, since they get a bit stiff.  However, I do find it most preferable to doing the leopard crawl with the poor slob on my back - that not only hurts the elbows, but is really tiring.  The only plus is the casualty can be used to protect you... :.

MM


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## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

Old Ranger said:
			
		

> I can't remember the site, but I've see drag slings setups available. One type wasthat you wear one that can be attached to the person dragging you. Picture showed dragging and shooting. I'll try and find link.
> 
> http://www.narescue.com/Category.aspx?SID=1&Category_ID=140
> 
> And there it is, with a new picture



COOL!


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## Old Ranger (13 Mar 2008)

Of course all this Carry/Drag stuff could be avoided if you had Armour roll up an "level" the threat.
Then we could just drive up in Ambulances :

                                                                                  Ya, I know STFU zipper head


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## medicineman (13 Mar 2008)

Old Ranger said:
			
		

> Of course all this Carry/Drag stuff could be avoided if you had Armour roll up an "level" the threat.
> Then we could just drive up in Ambulances :
> 
> Ya, I know STFU zipper head



Hey, why not - Scene Safety = Winning the Firefight, right?

MM


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## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Hey, why not - Scene Safety = Winning the Firefight, right?
> 
> MM



Nothing says scene safe better then a whole lot of firepower and no enemies left ;D


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## medicineman (13 Mar 2008)

Having live bad guys adds that whole extra degree of difficulty the Russian judges just love and I dislike somewhat :.

MM


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## Old Ranger (13 Mar 2008)

And you guys are the Medics...how bada$$ are the frontliners?



Oh ya, I started the level thy enemy bit ;D


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## medicineman (13 Mar 2008)

Hey, I like my job, but as I always tell my young Padawans, we always get to have fun, but always at some poor soul's expense.  I don't mind working, but am happier when there is a dry spell.

MM


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## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

medicineman who was it that said "a busy day for me, is a bad day for everyone else" ?


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## Old Ranger (13 Mar 2008)

medicineman said:
			
		

> happier when there is a dry spell.
> 
> MM



Forgot what that was like....


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## medicineman (13 Mar 2008)

My shift in Sick Kids today was one - bit of a change from getting slammed the last week or so.

MM


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## Old Ranger (13 Mar 2008)

It's always nice to hear of a slowdown there


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## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

medicineman said:
			
		

> My shift in Sick Kids today was one - bit of a change from getting slammed the last week or so.
> 
> MM



That my friend is a GOOD thing.


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## medicineman (13 Mar 2008)

But how can I learn anything though  :crybaby:?  

MM


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## medaid (13 Mar 2008)

medicineman said:
			
		

> But how can I learn anything though  :crybaby:?
> 
> MM




Hmmm... good point... I don't know  :-\ 

Through a book?!  ;D lots and lots of pictures


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## medicineman (13 Mar 2008)

mmmmmmmmmmmmm, pictuuuuuurrrrrrres...Ugh ugh.

MM


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## BDTyre (14 Mar 2008)

My BIQ saw us doing "casualty PT" which was basically running with loaded stretchers and dragging casualties...no fireman's carry at all.  I found it was easier to transport someone heavier than me quicker than a fireman's carry, and "firing" my weapon was somewhat easier.

But that..."sling" for casualties.   ;D  I like to call it that casualty leash!



			
				medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm presonally more in favour of a drag - as mentioned earlier, much easier to do when someone is kitted up, it's somewhat safer, especially over uneven ground (I"ve dropped and been dropped because some smart *** decided to make us do it on a snow covered field that had a lot of ground squirrel dens) - not all that safe to have someone battle loaded fall on you because you twisted your ankle or hit a rut or couldn't see where you were going.  Forget the injuries to people's backs I've seen - and these are fit people - from doing fireman's carries.  Most frefighters won't do it with a dead weight casualty now - they drag them or do a two rescuer carry if they have to.  I used to teach people if they had to do a fireman's carry, they should de-kit the person as much as possible to give them a fighting chance of geeting them up and on- not easy when they have the tac vest and frag vest combo with strike plates, since they get a bit stiff.  However, I do find it most preferable to doing the leopard crawl with the poor slob on my back - that not only hurts the elbows, but is really tiring.  The only plus is the casualty can be used to protect you... :.
> 
> MM


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## BLUE GRUNT (18 Mar 2008)

With regards to Fireman carry or a Drag.... my Chief came back from his big Chief briefing just after Christmas and he tells me they are seriously looking at replacing it with the Drag...it is more practical and as was already mentioned ....picking someone up in the thick of things is impractical and highly dangerous to both persons...I guess though one will do whatever they will to save there buddy, I would....time will only tell if and when they finally institute this Drag over fireman policy ....until then we are stuck with it.


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## Eye In The Sky (19 Mar 2008)

Old Ranger said:
			
		

> I can't remember the site, but I've see drag slings setups available. One type wasthat you wear one that can be attached to the person dragging you. Picture showed dragging and shooting. I'll try and find link.
> 
> http://www.narescue.com/Category.aspx?SID=1&Category_ID=140
> 
> And there it is, with a new picture



I hate to be the party pooper but that doesn't look as "effective" as it looks "cool".  Has anyone actually played with one of these to see if it really works?  I am trying to imagine a real PersCas, the average troop dressed in all the fixins' (how much weight on average) being drug across a surface by this thing.


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## NL_engineer (19 Mar 2008)

I have been on ex were the officer leading the attack (infantry officer; not bashing just pointing it out) had us fireman carry the troops who the WES kit said were injured/dead  through the woods, over uneven ground to the extraction point.  It only accomplished many a head ache for the troops being carried (they were wearing helmets), and sore backs for us troops doing the carrying  :

IMO the fireman carry should be replaced with a drag carry


GEO, your just plain mean ;D I find it easer to grab on to the drag handle on the Tac Vest then grab someone by the ankles  :cheers:


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## OldSolduer (19 Mar 2008)

A point to the drag....it's not as easy at it looks. It took 2 fairly strong individuals to drag my "carcass" to the CCP when we were on ex in Louisiana.
Mind you I'm a bit of a fat f***!!! (If I offended anyone....apologies)


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## geo (19 Mar 2008)

Hmm.... you've lost your girlish figure OS?


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## OldSolduer (19 Mar 2008)

hi geo, fraid so!!  that's OK I look OK for a....military senior citizen?  (anyone 45+ years of age)


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## geo (19 Mar 2008)

Umm... at 53 (going on 54) I resemble that!

Over the last xx years, I've shed some 50-60 lbs of tonnage.... Best shape I've eeen in for a long, long time... if it wasn't for the sectioned Quad I picked up in November


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