# Army Reserve or Armoured Reserve



## NzrTrk1 (7 Sep 2009)

Hello, let me begin with saying that I have searched the forums for information, and contacted local recruiters about it as well. Basically, I've been the minimum age required to join a reserve unit for a while now, I've known that I wanted to get into the CF/Reserves for a long time now, but I'm now stuck making a decision between the Army Reserve (infantry) or the Armoured Reserve. I understand that the Armoured Reserves are reconnaissance units use the G Wagens and not any AFVs, I have also read here that some units are periodically stripped of their G Wagens, but after talking with some people affiliated with a local unit (Governor General's - Toronto) that they are equipped with those vehicles, so with that being clear, to what extent do the armoured reserve units train recce? I'm very interested in both aspects offered by the two branches, combat and recce, but seeing as I'm going to be in the reserves for the next while (going to switch to regular after University if I decide I'd like to stay) I'd like to enjoy myself as much as possible, so what would be a general breakdown of what the two branches would do, during regular training/exercises?

Do the recce units actually do train in things other than mounted patrols/convoys (as I read in a few posts here), would there be a decent amount of combat training/exercises? Hopefully this thread doesn't come off as being too jumbled or anything, I just want to know as much as possible about what the two branches would do on a regular training or exercise, the unit's websites were of no real help, on line articles and actually speaking with some recruiters didn't either  :-\


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Sep 2009)

NzrTrk1,

Both Infantry and Armour are part of the CF Primary Reserve, aka the Army Reserve.  

If you've already read thru the infantry and armour forums on this site, talked to recruiters and read some online articles, have you thought about going to a local Reserve Infantry and Reserve Armour unit to talk to some of the people in the units for their input?  

I never served with a Reserve Infantry unit as other than an attached sub-unit (example, a Armd Recce Troop attached to a Infantry Company) so I can't compare the difference from experience.

I've been out of the Reserve Armd Recce world for a number of years, but when I was there, all of our training was centered around Armd Recce, both mounted and dismounted.  There was usually a LOT of stuff to pack into a short amount of time so it was usual to complete one task then go right onto another task.  Shortages of vehicles, personnel, weapons, comm's equipment, etc is somewhat normal for any unit, however a shortage of vehicles for a specific timeframe doesn't mean training stops.  Res Armd Crewmen do much more than just drive in vehicles and just because there aren't alot of vehicles available doesn't mean there isn't any relevant training that can and should be done.  

I found my time in the Armd Recce world was excellent.  There was always something to do, the variety of tasks the Recce crewmen have to be (reasonably) versed in during normal reserve training cycles meant we were never left with nothing to do or train for and there was rarely a time it was what I would call "boring".  

The role of the infantry and armoured recce are different, therefore their training and tasks are equally varied about and beyond the "basic soldier" skillsets.  

If I had to describe the difference to somone with no military experience, I'd probably say:

Armoured Recce is primarily a mounted unit that centers around finding and defining the enemy or ground in an area, whose best weapons are a working radio AND the ability to quickly pass accurate information on to their commander.  

Infantry have the job of taking and holding ground, closing with and killing the enemy and have a variety of ways to arrive to their area such as walking, mounted or by air assets.  If a recce unit has found and defined an enemy force, the infantry will likely be the ones destroying that force with the help of arty, engineers, armour, air support, etc.  


Lastly, both armour recce and infantry train for 'combat'.  Their roles and the training the take to achieve those roles are what is different.  Reserve Armour is primarily a mounted entity, where as the Reserve Infantry don't have many "combat vehicles".  I don't include 'army trucks' that the infanteers can arrive in (soft skin vehicles that can't become part of the fighting force once the infantry in the back dismount) as combat vehicles.

Hope this helps some.


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## ajp (14 Sep 2009)

Well said EITS.  I did some training with Res Inf as part of my work up for tour, and they live in a diff world than Armd Recce (for those who don't know me, that was my trade before CT to Regs).  I can only add that anyone going into either trade would eventually train with units from other trades and thus develop a broader range of skills.  It is not unusual to see attach postings or tasks from Armd to Inf etc.  and back.


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## Journeyman (14 Sep 2009)

War-fighting is a team sport. As such, while you're expected to be very good at playing your position, you're a better player if you also have a good idea of where your team-mates will be and what they'll be doing.

So let me contradict conventional wisdom. If you think that you may be interested in a Regular Force career in Armour, I suggest spending your school time in a Res Infantry unit, or vice versa. It will broaden your perspectives, but not leave you behind the power curve with your peers in the long run. 

Think of it as an early investment in your professional-development knowledge base, rather than a misspent 3-4 years in your quest to be Field Marshall.


In the end, either infantry or armour will give you _plenty_ of opportunity to be cold, wet, tired -- and some negative things too. 

...but the best memories/war stories come from the most "miserable" times.   :nod:


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## FormerHorseGuard (14 Sep 2009)

If the Horse Guards have not changed they  way  they  train,  they  train hard no matter the equipment they  have to use.  Expect to work hard and go home dirty and smelly but know inside you  worked hard and learned more than then you  knew when you  went to work.
I was there when they  had access to cougars and other apcs for training, not sure about the recce role now. But I know they are a close knit group of soldiers. Friendships there last a life time and always feel apart of the regiment even after being gone for years.

You  will enjoy  your time with the Guards and it will help prepare you  for a future in the Forces. If you a re going to get a degree,  they have been known to take good enlisted members and see they  get a chance to try  and become an officer.  
Good luck in your future and your choices.
Once a Guard always a A Guard.
Be Proud, Be a Guard


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## mariomike (14 Sep 2009)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> Once a Guard always a A Guard.
> Be Proud, Be a Guard



Cheers to the GGHG! I was never a member, but I remember them as a proud regiment in a proud corps.


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## PMedMoe (14 Sep 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> the CF *Primary* Reserve, aka the *Army* Reserve.



You realize there are Navy and Air Reserves as well, right?


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## X-mo-1979 (14 Sep 2009)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> War-fighting is a team sport. As such, while you're expected to be very good at playing your position, you're a better player if you also have a good idea of where your team-mates will be and what they'll be doing.
> 
> So let me contradict conventional wisdom. If you think that you may be interested in a Regular Force career in Armour, I suggest spending your school time in a Res Infantry unit, or vice versa. It will broaden your perspectives, but not leave you behind the power curve with your peers in the long run.
> 
> ...



While I see your idea,I disagree.

If he decides to do his armour DP1-PLQ-ARCC which in reality could be completed in 3 years he could easily CT to regular force as a Mcpl,do a TOC course and be employed as a crew commander.Which would take a good 7-8 years (conservatively) to obtain if joining strait regular force.

Joining as a infanteer he would then be required to re-do his trade qualification courses.However would get a good working knowledge of another side of the house for sure.

I would tell ANYONE thinking of joining the Regular force to go out and join the reserves for 5 years then CT.You will be way ahead of anyone who joins up regular force right away.


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## Journeyman (14 Sep 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> While I see your idea,I disagree.


Well within your rights.



> If he decides to do his armour DP1-PLQ-ARCC which in reality could be completed in 3 years he could easily CT to regular force as a Mcpl...


Now there are plenty who will offer counter-examples, but at the end of the day, the majority of those joining with a university degree (he _did_ refer to RegF after university) go officer. Therefore, I was referring only to an officer career.

Regardless....I suggest that while my advice is more _specifically_ relevant at the Combat Team/Battle Group level -- an AFV crew commander, even a MCpl, may still benefit from insights into where an attached Pl/Tp elements may be, and their strengths/weaknesses.


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## X-mo-1979 (14 Sep 2009)

Well I gues sit all breaks down to how much training a person is wanting to do.

IIRC you change careers like I change t shirts! ;D

Your right however with even at the Mcl level knowledge of other trades in the combat team is important. I was more referring to him joining as a NCM then switching reg to another trade.Which I woudnt do,not when we are seeing young keen guys flying down the career path due to reserve training.I know I have been bypassed!With no hard feelings either.IMHO they made a better decision than I did.


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## Eye In The Sky (15 Sep 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> You realize there are Navy and Air Reserves as well, right?



Ya but...the OP is asking about Army stuff.  I only recruit for the PRes Army folks


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## Jarnhamar (16 Sep 2009)

Comparing a reserve armored platoon with reserve infantry platoon.
The infantry platoon was in better physical shape. They had better weapons handling drills, better grasp of 'basic' soldier skills. Were 'closer' but were very arrogant. Much more so than they deserved.

The Armored guys had better comms skills, were more marture and relaxed, better vehicle skills (obviously).


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## X-mo-1979 (16 Sep 2009)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Comparing a reserve armored platoon with reserve infantry platoon.



Oh ok.Now your using the sweeping generalization that everyone has platoons as well.Now I see where your vast knowledge of Armd troops comes from.

Sweeping generalizations are great.I could make a few on certain trades.However that would be narrow minded.

Having said that I have never worked with a armd platoon since I joined.....except for that weird panzergrenadier B sqn RCD thing in the 90's...however before my time.


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## Quag (16 Sep 2009)

Flawed Design,

I'm going to disagree with you here.  

Infantry are very capable with their weapons, however the Armour Corps is too.  They are even specialists on heavier weapons that some infantry members are not (ie 25mm, 105mm 120mm etc...)

Armour fights with the same section weapons (albeit we call it a patrol) that you do.  We incorporate C8's, M203's, C9's, C6's, M-72, SRAAW etc... in our job.  

As for physical fitness, I think you are waaaaaay out of your lane here.  The old stereotype of a "fat tanker" of which era I never lived through is long gone.  Today's Armour soldiers are smart, fit and robust, able to adapt to a constantly evolving battlefield.  Our job finds us dismounting frequently, employing tactics and techniques similar to an Inf Recce Pn.  In fact, I know a plethora of Armour folks that easily slid into JTF2 and CSOR.

Just a continuing education point, Armour calls a Pn a Troop.  3 Tp's = 1 Squadron.

Cheers


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## NzrTrk1 (12 Nov 2009)

Hey, since having decided to go the Armoured reserve route, I was wondering a few more things. I did a search beforehand and could only come up with one thing (reserve recruiter couldn't help me with this either) but what are the chances of ever being assigned to a Leopard in an Armoured career? I should probably note that I am just under 6 foot tall, and in another thread I was reading that the cutoff limit was 5'8". Would this height only be a problem from the MBT or would it interfere with other AFV's? The thread in question is an older post, and I believe they said that they wouldn't take you for training if you are over 5'8", something about the swivel seat and you hitting your head on something if an IED went off by the tank. If this is true, I can't imagine how someone over that height could fit in any of the smaller AFVs, like the Coyote? While I can't imagine 6 foot would be too tall, the recruiter couldn't comment on any of the other vehicles other than the G Wagen.


(On another note, the new forum layout looks awesome, much easier to navigate, seems to have a bit more posting options as well?)


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## George Wallace (12 Nov 2009)

NzrTrk1 said:
			
		

> Hey, since having decided to go the Armoured reserve route, I was wondering a few more things. I did a search beforehand and could only come up with one thing (reserve recruiter couldn't help me with this either) but what are the chances of ever being assigned to a Leopard in an Armoured career?




ZERO


Please go to the Armour Forums and READ.


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## ajp (12 Nov 2009)

As a reservist you will likely Never see the inside of a tank.  Unless its at a dog and pony.  If you get to go on a tour, you will have the potential of hetting qualified Coyote or LAV, but that is a very slim chance.  If you got a class B task at the Armour School (and see the thread on class B employment) you may get qualified on a few more vehicles than your home unit has, but that would also depend on tha task you take.  I would say, get used to doing Recce at home, in a G Wagon, and if you are skilled there then you should certianly be looking for work at the School, or other Class B tasks, as soon as you can and depending  on your Civy Schedule.


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## NzrTrk1 (12 Nov 2009)

I should have said that differently, I assumed that you would understand that 'Armoured career' implies being in regular force, I would be switching over to regular force after spending time in the reserves while I'm going through school (post secondary). I understand that I wont see anything but a G Wagen during my time with an Armoured Reserve unit, I've done my research when it comes to that. Could I have some help in answering the rest of the question..

(Also, thanks for merging this with my old thread. Should've just posted here.)


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## X-mo-1979 (12 Nov 2009)

ajp said:
			
		

> As a reservist you will likely Never see the inside of a tank.  Unless its at a dog and pony.  If you get to go on a tour, you will have the potential of hetting qualified Coyote or LAV, but that is a very slim chance.  If you got a class B task at the Armour School (and see the thread on class B employment) you may get qualified on a few more vehicles than your home unit has, but that would also depend on tha task you take.  I would say, get used to doing Recce at home, in a G Wagon, and if you are skilled there then you should certianly be looking for work at the School, or other Class B tasks, as soon as you can and depending  on your Civy Schedule.



While I would have agreed with this statement say 3 years ago I think it's slightly dated.When we replaced the tankers last year they had many reservist gunners/loaders.Our tour didnt have any in the F esh but 3-4 in our admin troop.As well as the coyote troops have a lot of reservist worked into regular force C/S's as drivers,gib's,gunners.One was put right on their ARCC to be a C/C of a regular force crew.However that did not happen in the end.

If your thinking of going Armd reserve I would suggest you stay there until you can get your 6A done.Don't decide to enter as a cpl with only dvr courses.Get your career courses done,and although you may only see a G-wagon if you don't take call outs/tours you can CT with the rank of Sgt with patrol commander done.And then at a young age,and a high rank you can fulfill tank c/c positions,recce patrol commander positions.While a g-wagon isnt "sexy",you'll learn the basics.And have the same qualifications as your regular force comrades who may have 10-15 years in (6a)compared to 5-6 years.

it's really a no brainer.

Hope this was helpful.


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## ajp (13 Nov 2009)

Your career path, if you go regs will be adapted by the requirements of the Corp.  Likely, at any Rank, you will get a TOC (Turret Operators Course) on a 25mm platform, if you are already CC Qualified.  Wether  you get to go into the Tanks will depend on the unit you post into after your initial OT, and the requirements of the Corp.  I don't ever expect to see the Tanks (from the inside) but I am an old man now.  One case the CT'd at the same time as me with equal quals but much younger is well on his way to that path.


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## NzrTrk1 (13 Nov 2009)

Hey, thank you guys very much for all the info, clearing up a lot of things and giving me quite a bit of insight on a potential career. One thing I'm still wondering is, are there any general physical size limitations/guidelines? As I said before, in another thread I read that you wouldn't be brought for training in a Leopard if you were over 5'8"? Is this true, would something similar apply to the other AFVs seeing as they only get smaller after the Leopards?


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## X-mo-1979 (14 Nov 2009)

A leo has the smallest fighting compartments.There is a topic on the driver height for the leo.However you can still be a gunner,and loader,C/C.

Get all your career courses done in the reserves on a g-wagon.When you come in all you need to Crew command is a Turret operators course.


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## NzrTrk1 (14 Nov 2009)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> A leo has the smallest fighting compartments.There is a topic on the driver height for the leo.However you can still be a gunner,and loader,C/C.
> 
> Get all your career courses done in the reserves on a g-wagon.When you come in all you need to Crew command is a Turret operators course.



Ah, alright. Speaking of the reserves, I've read that all of the combat arms trades are full, does this apply across Reserve and Regular? Or is it just for Regular? When doing my application I was going to have Armoured Soldier, Infantry and Combat Engineer as my three trade choices, and those three choices (with Armoured soldier ranking slightly higher) are basically equal in how content I'd be with having them, though I'm not sure what I'd have to do other than wait if those three are full in the reserves as well?


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## X-mo-1979 (14 Nov 2009)

I dunno.
Check with the units in your area.Or the recruiting center.


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