# VPD eyes new armoured rescue vehicles



## CougarKing (16 Mar 2007)

It's nice to see some of our taxes are actually being used to prepare for the security of the 2010 Olympics...

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/2007/03/15/3754747-sun.html

Police eye armour for 2010

By IRWIN LOY, 24 HOURS
      


> The Vancouver Police Department could become the first law enforcement group in Western Canada to bolster its fleet with a pair of armoured rescue vehicles.
> 
> VPD Sgt. Norm Webster says the squad's emergency response team has an "urgent need" for the vehicles.
> 
> ...


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## Donut (16 Mar 2007)

The first BC Ambulance Tac EMS vehicles were spotted last week, too.

Someone's clearly got a pretty serious INT REP as to the threat level for 2010.  Interesting times....


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## childs56 (17 Mar 2007)

Personally I disagree with any City police unit that is allowed to have armoured vehicles. And teams equipped like a infantry section. 

If they want to have that capability then maybe it should be passed off onto the RCMP for a national level of equipment and control. They can be provided the funding through the treasury board to have such equipment in their arsenals. 

Remember one thing the security at the Olympics is a open check book for all involved. 
Why would they require their own APC's when the military will be able to offer that support to them. 

If any thing bad happens the first thing that is going to happen is the miltary will take controll of the situation. Hostages are taken our famous JTF will be in control.

If the requirment for the Local police force to have a APC type vehicle is needed during the Olympics, that means that something bad has happened, and once again the military will take control.


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## Donut (17 Mar 2007)

CTD, stay in your lane.  

The RCMP once had a national counter-terrorism role....there's a reason JTF2 was created.  This has been on the VPD wishlist for years, longer then the 2010 games have been in the works. Trust me on this one...I know the local operators.

The "first thing" that happens isn't JTF2 kicking in doors, and in case you haven't noticed, we're a long way from DHTC out here in BC anyway.  There's also NO CF ARMOUR in BC.  

BC LEA regularly practice active shooter scenarios, a la Columbine.

"It's OK boys, the Bison's getting put on a low bed in Edmonton as we speak, it'll be here in 16 hours, and then we'll go in and extract the wounded and hunt the shitheads down..."   :


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## recruited (17 Mar 2007)

I agree with para, as a BCer with a family member in VPD I can tell you that with the change in political climate and the lack of available firepower in western canada its a good thing to equip these guys with some equipment that would aid them with real or potential threats and it would be in the hands of the Van E.R.T, a group of guys well trained in urban combat tactics ........


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## noneck (17 Mar 2007)

CTD you've obviously never worked a LEO shift in the LMD! 

These vehicles would be used for special events such as 2010. However they would also be used weekly if not daily by the VPD ERT. There has been a drastic increase in gun related crime  and incidents in the GVRD and LMD over the past few years. It's about time that some forward thinking was put into equipment such as this. I would also hazard a guess that there would be a local agreement for VPD to support  the MIERT and the LMD RCMP full time ERT with the vehicles if a situation would require it.

The RCMP does have 4 retrofitted armoured vehicles in Ottawa. I've heard two different vehicles spoken about one story is that they are Grizzly's and the other that they are 113's. Maybe we will see those out here for 2010?

Noneck


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## childs56 (17 Mar 2007)

I am in my lane thank you very much.

The fact remains that a police force is just that. A police force.

Regardless of what we want for City police units to have we need to keep them in check. 

If their is a requirement (which there is) for them to be using armoured vehicles then why not look at having the RCMP stand up a special force that is specifically designed for this. 
Instead of having every single city police force with their own small military fleet of armoured vehicles. 

I agree the more we move into the future the more important things such as protection for police officers is going to be. At the end of the day outfitting City Police forces with armoured vehicles, and heavier weapons is not the answer. 
The answer lies at the national level, where it is more then obvious that it isn't working, but it should be. The RCMP need to step up to the plate and set up Special task Forces in the major city's. These should be equipped with the armoured vehicles and other such weapons to deal with major situations. Kinda like a ATF squad. 

I do not agree with a city owning it's own small arsenal of weapons and equipment such as Armoured vehicles. 

Don't get me wrong I know they need them, but this should be at the national level not the municipality level. 

As for the Olympics any major issues that may arise will be dealt with by the Military, these could include, hostage taking, bomb attacks, NBCD, natural disaster etc.  

Although the police will be central in all actions taking they will not be acting with out full support of any and all military hardware in the area for this time. 

As for the type of Military equipment that will be on location for the Olympics, well if we got it it will be their. From Fighter Jets to Foot soldiers.


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## Donut (17 Mar 2007)

CTD said:
			
		

> I am in my lane thank you very much.
> 
> The fact remains that a police force is just that. A police force.
> 
> ...



Why do we have to "keep them in check"?  Are they going to stage a coup?  Mutiny?  Run roughshod over civilian protesters?  Oh, cause the CF or RCMP have a MUCH better track record for dealing with public unrest in BC...were you at APEC?  I was...it was appalling to watch. How about Gustafson Lake?  

You admit there's a requirement for them, and then you suggest they be controlled nationally, when I already pointed out there is national response team, they're just a long way away. The RCMP already had the national tasking for these things, too, and screwed the pooch with it, so that's a nonstarter, too.

They've been after these since before the 2010 announcement was made, so that's just a red herring.  

No where did they talk about heavier weapons; the C8 and the long rifles are just fine, thanks, they don't need an arsenal of GPMG, and no one has suggested it (although Int Reps indicate several are in the hands of the local OMGs).

The RCMP should, in fact, get the hell OUT of municipal policing, not get deeper into it.  While Vancouver's mayor is a fool, he is at least responsible to the inhabitants of the city he oversees.

Have you even looked at the trucks?  It's just that, a truck, with some armour, a top hatch, and cool running boards with handholds.  No pintle mounted machine guns, no grenade launchers (although they're being ordered with oversize firing ports for CS GLs). 

Until you or your loved ones are the operators who want these available when they put out a Code 33 (Officer/Paramedic/FF Down, hostiles in scene) or you're a LEO who's kicked in a few crack houses, you ARE out of your lane, although I'll concede you're entitled to your opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I work closely with RCMP E Div, and I have the utmost respect for them, but they are NOT responsive to the needs of the municipalities they police.


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## Devlin (17 Mar 2007)

CTD said:
			
		

> At the end of the day outfitting City Police forces with armoured vehicles, and heavier weapons is not the answer.




Ummm no actually that is exactly the answer (or at least part of it)....the police officers in major cities need this kit. For their own safety and for yours as well. I come from a family of cops and personally I don't want to go to any more unnecessary funerals. Buy them the proper kit to do the job. If that means an armoured vehicle with a ram on the front of it to pop reinforced doors off of dope dealers houses so be it. And when I say dope I'm not just talking about BC Bud either...

There is no reason to deny them this equipment....they will benefit and so will the community as a whole from the VPD and other having the right tool for the job.


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## Dissident (17 Mar 2007)

CTD:

I have a hard time justifying having a locally needed asset, under a national umbrella.

Considering the competive nature of the relationship between the RCMP and the VPD, there is no need to throw another bone of contention between the two, in the lower mainland. Having one play in the others playground seems ill advised.

Beyond your aversion for municipalities to possess their integral "tactical" units, with military hardware, you do not bring much of a  convincing argument to the table.


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## Emenince Grise (17 Mar 2007)

noneck said:
			
		

> The RCMP does have 4 retrofitted armoured vehicles in Ottawa. I've heard two different vehicles spoken about one story is that they are Grizzly's and the other that they are 113's. Maybe we will see those out here for 2010?



They are M113's. See here for more: http://policecanada.ca/Canada/RCMP/index.html


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## Donut (17 Mar 2007)

I wonder how much you have to pay a civi to pound track?


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## cdonnelly (17 Mar 2007)

I must say this would be an excellent tool to be added to the department. In regards to comments of a municipal force not requiring this type of equipment, I would disagree. I am a Vancouver Police Cst. and also in the tactical support section, also known as the Gas rank. In  a crowd control situation, what better piece of equipment to call up and utilize, especially if molotov cocktails are heading in our direction. This type of situation can happen at any time (please see world headlines),  Vancouver is not exempt from large scale riots. For example I was fully suited up ready to go two nights ago for another Vancouver protest...the unit was not deployed, but the situation was heading sideways. 

I cannot comment on ERT applications, but I can see the use in barricaded subject situations, high risk entries. Anyway, give the hard working boys and girls the kit, cause it will be used and hopefully save someone from being hurt or killed.


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## gate_guard (17 Mar 2007)

CTD,
From your comments, you've apparently read an article in the newspaper and suddenly feel knowledgeable enough to form an opinion.

First of all, you seem to be under the impression that the vehicle in question is a military type vehicle. The Lenco Bearcat that has been recommended for purchase is not, say it with me, NOT a fighting/military vehicle. it does come in armed variants for military use, however, the law enforcement version does not carry any lethal armament. I have no idea where you came up with the idea that acquiring thise vehicle would result in adding "heavier weapons" to the departments armoury. Besides, we are already well kitted out with "force options".

Like many other members on this board, I have been in emergent situations where having an armoured RESCUE vehicle would have been more than helpful. To name a few scenarios, the use of such a vehicle will allow officers to deploy much closer to an armed suspect as well as extract any innocent bystanders from the immediate surroundings safely. These vehicles would also be helpful in riot situations where officers could safely deploy less lethal options such as CS gas without risk of injury. These incidents are growing in frequency. If you were a resident of Vancouver perhaps you would know this. 

I have no idea why you seem to think it would be a better idea for the RCMP to take control of such vehicles. One issue would be time delay. The amount of time it would take to notify the RCMP, have them report to wherever these vehicles would be garaged, and respond to the scene would add at least an hour or two to the response time. An extra hour in response time to a shots fired or gun call is completely ridiculous. Another issue would be training, the officers who would deploy these vehicles would be ERT. Introducing these vehicles would obviously change certain tactics and denying them the ability to operate them would severely limit their ability to deploy them effectively. As well, not every city in Canada requires such a vehicle, it just so happens that Vancouver does.

Your argument that any situations that should arise during the Olympics would be handled by the military is not only misinformed but a dead issue. Without getting into details of the security deployment for the Olympics, these vehicles would be nice to have during the games but are not the reason why these vehicles are being proposed for purchase. 

These vehicles are needed to deal with everyday incidents that require more protection than a Crown Vic, or would you have officers continue to use their cars for cover outside the house of an armed nutbar? I'm sure others on this site could enlighten you as to the lack of ballistic protection a car actually offers.

I welcome any comments you may have.


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## Gramantik (17 Mar 2007)

FYI...the Calgary Police Service also has an armoured vehicle, but very rarely used.  I'm not too sure but I think it's a M113 too.


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## Old Ranger (17 Mar 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> The first BC Ambulance Tac EMS vehicles were spotted last week, too.



Were they spotted with a camera?


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## Donut (17 Mar 2007)

Old Ranger said:
			
		

> Were they spotted with a camera?



No, actually, a colleague of mine saw them at Region HQ...he said they were basically the same externally, except "Tactical Paramedic Unit" on the sides.  I've heard they had ordered them with a CBRN filter system and overpressure to allow them to traverse CS/other contaminated areas, but I haven't seen the specs on that.

There's no one to crew them, either, as the TEMS team hasn't stood up yet.  There's still debate as to BLS/ALS and actuall numbers required, and the Lower Mainland CBRN is the staffing priority at present, with a half-dozen in Ontario and 4 at DRES at present.


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## Crown-Loyal (17 Mar 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> The RCMP should, in fact, get the hell OUT of municipal policing, not get deeper into it.



I can see it now...

" In today's news, the Princeton Police Service hired one more officer, he is the lazy guy down by the river, you know, the guy with the beer gut. Now he is rocking back and forth at the HQ with a rifle, a tin of chew, and a 3 legged, one eye swat dog borrowed from Spuzzum Police Department/ Emergency Response team. The Chief of Suzzum PD who is also the sole officer of the force, and the receptionist, and the dispatcher, let Princeton borrow the dog because his police vehicle, a 1977 firebird with no windows, no passenger door, and no exhaust, has suffered a flat tire due to a mischievous squirrel who is suspected of chewing through the tire. Spuzzum Update! The entire Spuzzum PD has cornered the dangerous squirrel. Help is being requested from Vanderhoof PD, unfortunately the town had a choice this year between a porta-potti or a '88 Chrysler Lebaron for the first police vehicle, but the two police officers opted for the porta-potti. They are hoping to raise money for a police car by selling moonshine they make in their newly acquired porta-potti. "

Wow do I have to much time on my hands.....Happy Green Beer Day to you all....


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## Old Ranger (17 Mar 2007)

gate_guard said:
			
		

> I welcome any comments you may have.



Well Said!

Why argue with Provincial or Municipal Police Services getting better equipped and better protected?
Or maybe they should just go back to carring a whistle and yelling "Stop, or I'll say Stop again"
Hey, why does'nt the CF switch back to Brown Bess's!

I'm very thankfull that the Police Services I work with are able to respond quickly and bring back-up in a timely fashion.

There is a  new high speed composite armoured vehicle I've seen near CFB Borden.
I think they are made in Brampton? Peel has one 9the one I've seen) and I know other Services are trying to procure them.
(Ring any bells for someone that might have a picture?)
It would be nice if they all could get them.

Cheers!


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## Donut (17 Mar 2007)

Ok, perhaps a poor choice of words on my part, Crown.  There's a reason Alberta is talking about bringing back their provincial force, Ontario and Quebec maintain their own forces, BC is looking into a Lower Mainland PD, etc.

The municipality down the road is far better policed (by a small Muni force) then mine is (by an RCMP det), the area I work in is a revolving door of junior, inexperienced constables, and Surrey is widely regarded as the property-crime capital of BC.

And at the same time, our national Counter-Int agency has no powers of arrest, is wracked with investigative issues, and has repeatedly been in the media due to mistakes.


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## Old Ranger (17 Mar 2007)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> basically the same externally, except "Tactical Paramedic Unit" on the sides.



With that new Armour Plated Paint of Course ;D

Thanks!

Our CBRN is still in the Planning stages.  We are still PCP hopeing for more enhancements soon.
Glad I learned the hurry up and wait game many years ago.


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## childs56 (17 Mar 2007)

To be honest with you I havent read any News paper articles on this matter. Nor do I think I am an expert on this subject, I am giving my opinion on this matter. As some of you are. Unless you are directly involved with doing these types of operations, as in the the guy kicking in the door then you neither are a knowledgable source. Stay in your lane. Or else open up a good discussion on this topic and lets have at her on here. 

Second hand my buddy works for them doesnt count, I have lots of buddys who have worked with various ERT teams across Canada and they scare the crap out of them they have said to me. (non of them were ERT, they worked alongside them for training in various areas)

Nor did I say or insinuate that the RCMP would be sitting 5000km away waiting for a call to go into Vancouver for a major drug bust or a hostage rescue. 

What I am saying is that maybe the RCMP could be trained and outfitted with in their Municipalitys they now already reside in. NOT station them 12 hrs away.  
It seems that drug trafficing is a Federal crime, usually it involves them and or other federal agencys and countrys. 

These teams would have to be with in the municipality to work out.  They also would have direct support of Canadian Intell along with the local police forces and other agencys. 
They would be the stand by team for the local Police for such things as Major raids and such. 
We have seen in the past year or so a few raids conducted by Regional, RCMP and other federal agencys. They worked out well. Why not build on that and let the RC's do the Heavy stuff.

I think that Regional Poloce could be better spent on dealing with local crime. Usually it is the smaller crime that leads to the big time stuff any ways. 

This is my opinion, not based on any reading or other real time knowledge, just based on my opinion and what I feel should be done.  

Were seeing more and more Terrorist like activities happening in Canada now along with more severe types of crimes. It is time that the RCMP step up to the plate and provide a force that can deal with this at the national Level along with the Municipal Level. 

I am just not a beleiver that the VPD or any other city police force should have to buy or even have to use any form of armoured vehicle. 

Remember my opinion. 
Everybody has one, some are bigger then others. 

Please you guys talk about keeping things open for discussion but the second some one mentions something that you may not agree with, you jump all over them. Because your opinion isnt the same.  Keep up the good work. 

Open your eyes ears and brain. Look at the other side and other options. 

Hopefully no matter what happens in the end non of this equipment is needed and is bought for show of force only.


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## cdonnelly (18 Mar 2007)

CTD, 

I'm going to simplify this matter for everyone by comparing Policing to the NHL....Do you think that the Vancouver Canucks would call in the Toronto Maple Leafs for the shoot-out...I don't think so. Well the same goes for Policing, the VPD and RCMP are both professional teams with excellent rosters of highly trained members. The VPD ERT is full time on 24/7...I can qualify this statement cause I'm on the job and have held containment on buildings,apartments and houses while awaiting for the appropriate equipment and personnel to arrive. Believe me, I highly respect my brothers in the RCMP and I have close personal friends amongst their ranks...but I don't want to wait for them in a high risk situation. 

As for national INT resources...we must remember that one of our best resources is HUMINT, in which each and every Cst. is in a position to gather and forward that info through the appropriate channels. Any agency that is going to staff and train a INT section, should be welcomed in the INT world.  Sharing of info is the key.


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## Nfld Sapper (18 Mar 2007)

Emenince Grise said:
			
		

> They are M113's. See here for more: http://policecanada.ca/Canada/RCMP/index.html



Crap those are the old A2's complete with trim vane.

<edited to add>

Wonder if they got the swim kits for them.


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## noneck (18 Mar 2007)

Mods please lock this thread it's full of more than a few comments by people talking well outside their lanes!

CTD,  any PD Muni or otherwise that has a tactical unit part time on call or full time should have access to a reinforced vehicle such as this. The cost is not really that prohibitive when you look at what a marked unit with full equipment costs.

Right tools and training for the job, the Canada Labour Code is quite clear on this.

Noneck


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## Donut (18 Mar 2007)

I'll 2nd that, Noneck.


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## Nfld Sapper (18 Mar 2007)

Looks like motion carried  ;D

Everyone needs the right tool for the job. So what if they need to have a small arsenal. I would sleep better knowing that the local PD had the equipment if/when they need it.


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