# Commission



## army

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:18:19 -0700*
I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf of
Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for something so
important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the "higher
paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
----- Original Message -----
From: Beth MacFarlane 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
Officer relationship
> Hey Mike!
> Guess who signed my scroll?  Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
Sauve.  It
> seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it.  1986.  A
lifetime
> ago. :.
> Beth
>
> Mike Oleary wrote:
>
> > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> >
> > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
Queen‘s
> > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." - 1RCR
Guide
> > for Young Officers, March 1972
> >
> > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me a
> > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
conferred
> > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and responsibility
in
> > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and honourable
> > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
Military
> > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17, Summer,
1990
> >
> > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing body of
men
> > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command their
> > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will not
make
> > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place you in
a
> > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> >
> > Mike
> >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:41:44 -0500*
Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have to
personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
time..
Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment and
reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an improvement
to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the overall
meal..
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf of
> Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for something
so
> important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the "higher
> paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Beth MacFarlane 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> Officer relationship
>
>
> > Hey Mike!
> > Guess who signed my scroll?  Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> Sauve.  It
> > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it.  1986.  A
> lifetime
> > ago. :.
> > Beth
> >
> > Mike Oleary wrote:
> >
> > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > >
> > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> Queen‘s
> > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." - 1RCR
> Guide
> > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > >
> > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me a
> > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> conferred
> > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
responsibility
> in
> > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and honourable
> > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> Military
> > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17, Summer,
> 1990
> > >
> > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing body of
> men
> > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
their
> > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will not
> make
> > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place you
in
> a
> > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:20:30 -0500*
Mine was signed in 83 and they are original signatures. I know this because
Ed Schreyer had an incompetent staff that provided him with a pen that had
ink that fades.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Edwards 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf of
> Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for something
so
> important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the "higher
> paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Ian  McGregor" <imcgrego@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:29:32 -0500*
There are a few changes to the scroll.  "men" is changed to "non 
commissioned members," and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her 
other realms" in the introduction.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Oleary" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12 PM
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / 
Officer relationship
> That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal 
granting
> of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank of
> commissioning and in future ranks.
>
> The following is the text from my scroll:
> _______________________________________________
>
> Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, 
Canada and Her
> other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender 
of
> the Faith, to
> 
>
> Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
> With Seniority of the  day of  19 .
>
> We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage 
and
> Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an 
officer
> in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and 
diligently to
> discharge your Duty as such in the rank of  Or 
in
> such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to 
promote
> or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as 
may
> be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior
> Officers and Non Commissioned Members serving under you and use your 
best endeavour to keep them
> in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey 
you as
> their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders and
> Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any your
> Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby 
reposed
> in you.
>
> In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set 
her hand
> and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa this   day 
of 
> in the Year of Our Lord One Two Thousand and in the 
> Year of Our Reign.
>
> By Command of Her Excellency the Governor General 
>
> Minister of National Defence 
> _________________________________________________
>
> Mike
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
>
> PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken facetiously, 
sorry
> if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on 
this
> means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only, if 
not
> one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey   
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer 
relationship
>
>
> > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could 
someone
> > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what 
factors
> > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very 
basic
> > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much 
else
> that
> > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Joan
> >
> > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! 
- the
> > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while 
back.
> When
> > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to 
kick
> your
> > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] 
tush,"
> what
> > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect 
anyone to
> > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a 
girl. In
> > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
> >
> > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what 
this
> means
> > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,
> > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
> >
> > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek - 
nor
> > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
> basically!,
> > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something
> neither
> > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or 
tolerate.
> >
> > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on 
this
> > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > To: 
> > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
> >
> > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
> >
> > Mike
> >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > _______________________________________________________
> >
> > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
> >
> > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, 
a
> > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I 
am a
> > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of 
the
> > Army."
> >
> > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at 
all
> > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the 
Military
> > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find 
myself.
> I
> > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or 
personal
> > safety.
> >
> > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will 
always be
> > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare 
of my
> > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically 
proficient. I
> > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
> > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
> > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my 
soldiers
> > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
> > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I 
will be
> > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
> >
> > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their 
duties
> they
> > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and 
confidence
> > as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with whom 
I
> serve
> > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by
> taking
> > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise 
my
> > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow 
my
> > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned 
Officers,
> > leaders!
> >
> >   The United States Army
> > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
> > Fort Knox, Kentucky
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> >
> >  > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American 
friends, a
> > Snr
> >  > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of 
paper
> > that
> >  > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one 
of
> > those,
> >  > who had, but cannot produce...
> >  > Ubique
> >  > Mac
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> > 
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
There are a few
changes to the scroll. "men" is changed to "non commissioned 
members," and
Canada is listed after the UK and before "her other realms" in the
introduction.
Ian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Oleary" ltm.oleary@ns.sympatico.cagt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12
PM
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed 
US Army,
was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
gt That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is 
the formal
grantinggt of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both 
in the
rank ofgt commissioning and in future ranks.gt gt The
following is the text from my scroll:gt
_______________________________________________gt gt 
Elizabeth the
Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
Canadaand Hergt other Realms and Territories Queen, 
Head of
the Commonwealth, Defender ofgt the Faith, togt 
ltrecipient‘s
namegtgt gt Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s 
Canadian
Armed Forces.gt With Seniority of the lt--gt day of lt--gt 
19
lt--gt.gt gt We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence 
in your
Loyalty, Courage andgt Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute 
and
Appoint you to be an officergt in our Canadian Armed Forces. You 
area
therefore carefully and diligently togt discharge your Duty as 
such in the
rank of ltrank of commissioninggt Or ingt such other Rank as 
We may
from time to time hereafter be pleased to promotegt or appoint you 
to, and
you are in such manner and on such occasions as maygt be 
prescribed by Us
to exercise and well discipline both the Inferiorgt Officers
andNon Commissioned Membersserving under 
you and
use your best endeavour to keep themgt in good Order and 
Discipline. And
We do hereby Command them to Obey you asgt their Superior Officer, 
and you
to observe and follow such Orders andgt Directions as from time to 
time
you shall receive from Us, or any yourgt Superior Officer 
according to
Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby reposedgt in you.gt 
gt
In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto 
sether
handgt and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa
this lt--gt day of lt--gtgt in the 
Year of
Our Lord One Two Thousand and in the lt--gtgt 
Year of
Our Reign.gt gt By Command ofHer 
Excellency
the Governor General ltseal and signaturegtgt gt 
Minister of
National Defence ltsignaturegtgt
_________________________________________________gt gt 
Mikegt
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt  gt PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have 
been taken
facetiously, sorrygt if it struck a nerve. You have in fact 
established
yourself well on thisgt means and no disrespect was to be 
inferred, You do
remain our only, if notgt one of very few, female correspondents. 
Cheers.
mikey gt gt gt gt ----- Original 
Message
-----gt From: Joan O. Arc ltjoan_o_arc@hotmail.comgtgt To:
ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt Sent:
Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PMgt Subject: Re: NCO Creed US 
Army, was
Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationshipgt gt gt gt To come 
back to
a very basic question I asked a while ago, could someonegt gt 
please
tell me what "commission" means in this context and what factorsgt 
gt
determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very 
basicgt
gt stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much
elsegt thatgt gt is being discussed at least partially 
sails over
my head.gt gtgt gt Thanks,gt gtgt gt
Joangt gtgt gt PS - On this gender reference stuff, let 
me
clarify - at some risk! - thegt gt post that seemed to get me 
into such
hot water with John a while back.gt Whengt gt I said, "I 
don‘t
expect special treatment, I just want a chance to kickgt 
yourgt gt
[referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] 
tush,"gt
whatgt gt I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would 
NEVER expect
anyone togt gt water down job standards/requirements for me 
simply
because I‘m a girl. Ingt gt fact, I would be insulted by an
organization/employer that did.gt gtgt gt In a civilian 
context
- which is, of course, where I work - what thisgt meansgt 
gt is
that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,gt 
gt
regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.gt 
gtgt
gt In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek 
-
norgt gt succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb.
weakling,gt basically!,gt gt UNLESS someone watered down 
the
standards for me. This is somethinggt neithergt gt I, nor 
any
other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or tolerate.gt
gtgt gt Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my 
position on thisgt gt recurring isue at all well last time, for 
which I
apologize.gt gtgt gtgt gt ----Original Message
Follows----gt gt From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca 
Mike
Olearygt gt Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.cagt gt To:
ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt gt
Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer 
relationshipgt gt
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500gt gtgt gt Ask and 
you
shall receive if it‘s already in my databasegt gtgt gt 
Mikegt gt  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt  gt
_______________________________________________________gt 
gtgt
gt The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officergt gtgt gt 
No one
is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, agt 
gt
leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I am 
agt
gt member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of
thegt gt Army."gt gtgt gt I am proud of the 
Corps of the
Non-commissioned Officers and will at allgt gt times conduct 
myself so
as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Militarygt gt Service and 
my
country regardless of the situation in which I find myself.gt 
Igt
gt will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or
personalgt gt safety.gt gtgt gt Competence is my 
watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always begt gt 
uppermost
in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of mygt 
gt
soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. 
Igt gt am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will 
fulfill
mygt gt responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are 
entitled togt gt outstanding leadership I will provide that 
leadership.
I know my soldiersgt gt and I will always place their needs 
above my
own. I will communicategt gt consistently with my soldiers and 
never
leave them uninformed. I will begt gt fair and impartial when
recommending both rewards and punishment.gt gtgt gt 
Officers of
my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their dutiesgt 
theygt
gt will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and
confidencegt gt as well as that of my soldiers. I will be 
loyal to
those with whom Igt servegt gt seniors, peers and 
subordinates
alike. I will exercise initiative bygt takinggt gt 
appropriate
action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise mygt gt
integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow 
mygt
gt comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned
Officers,gt gt leaders!gt gtgt gt 
The United
States Armygt gt Non-commissioned Officers Academygt gt 
Fort
Knox, Kentuckygt gtgt gtgt gt ----- Original 
Message
-----gt gt From: The MacFarlanes‘ ltdesrtrat@amug.orggtgt gt To:
ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt gt
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PMgt gt Subject: Re: Sr NCO / 
Officer
relationshipgt gtgt gtgt gt gt A long 
time ago,
I had given to me, from one of my American friends, agt gt 
Snrgt
gt gt NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a 
piece of
papergt gt thatgt gt gt compared Oficers‘ tasks, 
to Snr
NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one ofgt gt those,gt 
gt gt
who had, but cannot produce...gt gt gt Ubiquegt 
gt
gt Macgt gtgt gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt 
gt to
majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from the account
you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" 
in
thegt gt message body.gt gtgt gt
_________________________________________________________________________
gt
gt Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com.gt 
gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt gt
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt 
gt to
majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from the account
you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" 
in
thegt gt message body.gt gtgt gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt 
NOTE: To
remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from the account
you wish togt remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in 
thegt
message body.gt 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:21:45 -0700*
Actually, when I first joined, I misunderstood the question.  The 
recruiter asked, "commission?".  I said, "****  no, straight wage!"
Don
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Ian  McGregor
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 9:29 AM
  Subject: Fw: Commission
  There are a few changes to the scroll.  "men" is changed to "non 
commissioned members," and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her 
other realms" in the introduction.

  Ian

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Mike Oleary" 
  To: 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12 PM
  Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / 
Officer relationship
  > That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal 
granting
  > of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank 
of
  > commissioning and in future ranks.
  >
  > The following is the text from my scroll:
  > _______________________________________________
  >
  > Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, 
Canada and Her
  > other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, 
Defender of
  > the Faith, to
  > 
  >
  > Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
  > With Seniority of the  day of  19 .
  >
  > We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage 
and
  > Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an 
officer
  > in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and 
diligently to
  > discharge your Duty as such in the rank of  
Or in
  > such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to 
promote
  > or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions 
as may
  > be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the 
Inferior
  > Officers and Non Commissioned Members serving under you and use your 
best endeavour to keep them
  > in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey 
you as
  > their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders 
and
  > Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any 
your
  > Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby 
reposed
  > in you.
  >
  > In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set 
her hand
  > and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa this   
day of 
  > in the Year of Our Lord One Two Thousand and in the 
  > Year of Our Reign.
  >
  > By Command of Her Excellency the Governor General 
  >
  > Minister of National Defence 
  > _________________________________________________
  >
  > Mike
  >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
  >
  > PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken 
facetiously, sorry
  > if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on 
this
  > means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only, 
if not
  > one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey   
  >
  >
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: Joan O. Arc 
  > To: 
  > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
  > Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer 
relationship
  >
  >
  > > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could 
someone
  > > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what 
factors
  > > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very 
basic
  > > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much 
else
  > that
  > > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
  > >
  > > Thanks,
  > >
  > > Joan
  > >
  > > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some 
risk! - the
  > > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while 
back.
  > When
  > > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to 
kick
  > your
  > > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] 
tush,"
  > what
  > > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect 
anyone to
  > > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a 
girl. In
  > > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
  > >
  > > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what 
this
  > means
  > > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my 
field,
  > > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
  > >
  > > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek 
- nor
  > > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
  > basically!,
  > > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is 
something
  > neither
  > > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or 
tolerate.
  > >
  > > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on 
this
  > > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
  > >
  > >
  > > ----Original Message Follows----
  > > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
  > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  > > To: 
  > > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer 
relationship
  > > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
  > >
  > > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
  > >
  > > Mike
  > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
  > > _______________________________________________________
  > >
  > > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
  > >
  > > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned 
Officer, a
  > > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that 
I am a
  > > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of 
the
  > > Army."
  > >
  > > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will 
at all
  > > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the 
Military
  > > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find 
myself.
  > I
  > > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or 
personal
  > > safety.
  > >
  > > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will 
always be
  > > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the 
welfare of my
  > > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically 
proficient. I
  > > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill 
my
  > > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled 
to
  > > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my 
soldiers
  > > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will 
communicate
  > > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I 
will be
  > > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
  > >
  > > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their 
duties
  > they
  > > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and 
confidence
  > > as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with 
whom I
  > serve
  > > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative 
by
  > taking
  > > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise 
my
  > > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I 
allow my
  > > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned 
Officers,
  > > leaders!
  > >
  > >   The United States Army
  > > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
  > > Fort Knox, Kentucky
  > >
  > >
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
  > > To: 
  > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
  > > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
  > >
  > >
  > >  > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American 
friends, a
  > > Snr
  > >  > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of 
paper
  > > that
  > >  > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also 
one of
  > > those,
  > >  > who had, but cannot produce...
  > >  > Ubique
  > >  > Mac
  > >
  > >
  > > --------------------------------------------------------
  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
  > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
  > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
  > > message body.
  > >
  > > 
_________________________________________________________________________
  > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
  > >
  > > --------------------------------------------------------
  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
  > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
  > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
  > > message body.
  > >
  >
  > --------------------------------------------------------
  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
  > message body.
  >
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Actually, when I first joined, I 
misunderstood the
question. The recruiter asked, "commission?". I said, "****  
no,
straight wage!"
Don
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Ian amp
  McGregor 
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
  Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 
9:29
  AM
  Subject: Fw: Commission

  There are a few
  changes to the scroll. "men" is changed to "non commissioned 
members,"
  and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her other realms" in the 
  introduction.

  Ian

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Mike Oleary" ltm.oleary@ns.sympatico.cagt
  To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
  Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12
  PM
  Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO 
Creed US Army,
  was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
  gt That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is 
the formal
  grantinggt of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces 
both in the
  rank ofgt commissioning and in future ranks.gt gt 
The
  following is the text from my scroll:gt
  _______________________________________________gt gt 
Elizabeth the
  Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
  Canadaand Hergt other Realms and Territories 
Queen, Head
  of the Commonwealth, Defender ofgt the Faith, togt 
ltrecipient‘s
  namegtgt gt Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s 
  Canadian Armed Forces.gt With Seniority of the lt--gt day of 
  lt--gt 19 lt--gt.gt gt We, reposing especial Trust 
and
  Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage andgt Integrity, do by these 
  Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an officergt in our 
Canadian
  Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and diligently togt 
discharge
  your Duty as such in the rank of ltrank of commissioninggt Or 
ingt
  such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to
  promotegt or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on 
such
  occasions as maygt be prescribed by Us to exercise and well 
discipline
  both the Inferiorgt Officers andNon Commissioned
  Membersserving under you and use your best endeavour to 
keep
  themgt in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command 
them to
  Obey you asgt their Superior Officer, and you to observe and 
follow such
  Orders andgt Directions as from time to time you shall receive 
from Us,
  or any yourgt Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of 
the
  Trust hereby reposedgt in you.gt gt In witness 
Whereof Our
  Governor General of Canada hath hereunto sether handgt and 
Seal at
  our Government House in the City of Ottawa this 
  lt--gt day of lt--gtgt in the Year of Our Lord One 
Two
  Thousand and in the lt--gtgt Year of Our 
Reign.gt
  gt By Command ofHer Excellency the 
Governor
  General ltseal and signaturegtgt gt Minister of 
National
  Defence ltsignaturegtgt
  _________________________________________________gt gt
  Mikegt  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt  gt PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark 
should have
  been taken facetiously, sorrygt if it struck a nerve. You have 
in fact
  established yourself well on thisgt means and no disrespect was 
to be
  inferred, You do remain our only, if notgt one of very few, 
female
  correspondents. Cheers. mikey gt gt gt 
  gt ----- Original Message -----gt From: Joan O. Arc 
ltjoan_o_arc@hotmail.comgtgt
  To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
  Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PMgt Subject: Re: NCO Creed 
US
  Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationshipgt gt gt 
gt To
  come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could 
someonegt
  gt please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what
  factorsgt gt determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know 
this is
  very, very basicgt gt stuff, but without this one little piece 
of
  info., I‘m afraid much elsegt thatgt gt is being 
discussed at
  least partially sails over my head.gt gtgt gt 
Thanks,gt
  gtgt gt Joangt gtgt gt PS - On this gender 
reference
  stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! - thegt gt post that 
seemed to
  get me into such hot water with John a while back.gt 
Whengt gt I
  said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to 
kickgt
  yourgt gt [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members 
of this
  list] tush,"gt whatgt gt I meant by "no special 
treatment" is
  that I would NEVER expect anyone togt gt water down job
  standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a girl. Ingt 
gt fact,
  I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.gt 
gtgt
  gt In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what
  thisgt meansgt gt is that I feel myself well able to 
compete
  with anyone in my field,gt gt regardless of age, gender, etc., 
under
  any circumstances.gt gtgt gt In a military context, 
however,
  it would mean I would neither seek - norgt gt succeed in - 
combat-type
  roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,gt basically!,gt 
gt
  UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is 
somethinggt
  neithergt gt I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should 
either
  expect or tolerate.gt gtgt gt Hope this is all clear 
now. I
  fear I didn‘t explain my position on thisgt gt recurring isue 
at all
  well last time, for which I apologize.gt gtgt 
gtgt gt
  ----Original Message Follows----gt gt From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike
  Olearygt gt Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.cagt gt
  To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
  gt Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
  relationshipgt gt Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 
-0500gt
  gtgt gt Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my
  databasegt gtgt gt Mikegt gt  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt  gt
  _______________________________________________________gt 
gtgt
  gt The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officergt gtgt 
gt No
  one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, 
agt
  gt leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that 
I am
  agt gt member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The 
Backbone
  of thegt gt Army."gt gtgt gt I am proud of the 
Corps
  of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at allgt gt times 
conduct
  myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Militarygt gt 
Service
  and my country regardless of the situation in which I find 
myself.gt
  Igt gt will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, 
profit,
  or personalgt gt safety.gt gtgt gt Competence 
is my
  watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always begt gt
  uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of 
  mygt gt soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and 
technically
  proficient. Igt gt am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned 
Officer.
  I will fulfill mygt gt responsibilities inherent in that role. 
All
  soldiers are entitled togt gt outstanding leadership I will 
provide
  that leadership. I know my soldiersgt gt and I will always 
place their
  needs above my own. I will communicategt gt consistently with 
my
  soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will begt gt fair 
and
  impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.gt 
gtgt
  gt Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their
  dutiesgt theygt gt will not have to accomplish mine. I 
will
  earn their respect and confidencegt gt as well as that of my
  soldiers. I will be loyal to those with whom Igt 
servegt
  gt seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative 
  bygt takinggt gt appropriate action in the absence of 
orders. I
  will not compromise mygt gt integrity, nor my moral courage. I 
will
  not forget, nor will I allow mygt gt comrades to forget that 
we are
  professionals, Non-commissioned Officers,gt gt 
leaders!gt
  gtgt gt The United States Armygt gt
  Non-commissioned Officers Academygt gt Fort Knox, 
Kentuckygt
  gtgt gtgt gt ----- Original Message -----gt 
gt From:
  The MacFarlanes‘ ltdesrtrat@amug.orggtgt gt To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
  gt Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PMgt gt Subject: Re: 
Sr NCO /
  Officer relationshipgt gtgt gtgt gt gt 
A long
  time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends, 
agt gt
  Snrgt gt gt NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I 
have also
  had a piece of papergt gt thatgt gt gt 
compared
  Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one ofgt 
gt
  those,gt gt gt who had, but cannot produce...gt
  gt gt Ubiquegt gt gt Macgt 
gtgt
  gtgt gt
  --------------------------------------------------------gt gt
  NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt 
gt to
  majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from the
  account you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe 
army-list"
  in thegt gt message body.gt gtgt gt

_________________________________________________________________________
gt
  gt Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com.gt 
  gtgt gt
  --------------------------------------------------------gt gt
  NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt 
gt to
  majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from the
  account you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe 
army-list"
  in thegt gt message body.gt gtgt gt
  --------------------------------------------------------gt 
NOTE:
  To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from the
  account you wish togt remove, with the line "unsubscribe 
army-list" in
  thegt message body.gt 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 20:06:40 -0800*
LOL...good one
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Donald Schepens
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 11:21 AM
  Subject: Re: Commission
  Actually, when I first joined, I misunderstood the question.  The 
recruiter asked, "commission?".  I said, "****  no, straight wage!"
  Don
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Ian  McGregor
    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
    Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 9:29 AM
    Subject: Fw: Commission
    There are a few changes to the scroll.  "men" is changed to "non 
commissioned members," and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her 
other realms" in the introduction.

    Ian

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Mike Oleary" 
    To: 
    Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:12 PM
    Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / 
Officer relationship
    > That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal 
granting
    > of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank 
of
    > commissioning and in future ranks.
    >
    > The following is the text from my scroll:
    > _______________________________________________
    >
    > Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom, 
Canada and Her
    > other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, 
Defender of
    > the Faith, to
    > 
    >
    > Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed 
Forces.
    > With Seniority of the  day of  19 .
    >
    > We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, 
Courage and
    > Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be 
an officer
    > in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and 
diligently to
    > discharge your Duty as such in the rank of  
Or in
    > such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased 
to promote
    > or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such 
occasions as may
    > be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the 
Inferior
    > Officers and Non Commissioned Members serving under you and use 
your best endeavour to keep them
    > in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to 
Obey you as
    > their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders 
and
    > Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any 
your
    > Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust 
hereby reposed
    > in you.
    >
    > In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto 
set her hand
    > and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa this   
day of 
    > in the Year of Our Lord One Two Thousand and in the 
    > Year of Our Reign.
    >
    > By Command of Her Excellency the Governor General 
    >
    > Minister of National Defence 
    > _________________________________________________
    >
    > Mike
    >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
    >
    > PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken 
facetiously, sorry
    > if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well 
on this
    > means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our 
only, if not
    > one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey   
    >
    >
    >
    > ----- Original Message -----
    > From: Joan O. Arc 
    > To: 
    > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
    > Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer 
relationship
    >
    >
    > > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could 
someone
    > > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what 
factors
    > > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, 
very basic
    > > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid 
much else
    > that
    > > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
    > >
    > > Thanks,
    > >
    > > Joan
    > >
    > > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some 
risk! - the
    > > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while 
back.
    > When
    > > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance 
to kick
    > your
    > > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] 
tush,"
    > what
    > > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect 
anyone to
    > > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m 
a girl. In
    > > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
    > >
    > > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what 
this
    > means
    > > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my 
field,
    > > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
    > >
    > > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither 
seek - nor
    > > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
    > basically!,
    > > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is 
something
    > neither
    > > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or 
tolerate.
    > >
    > > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position 
on this
    > > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
    > >
    > >
    > > ----Original Message Follows----
    > > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
    > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
    > > To: 
    > > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer 
relationship
    > > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
    > >
    > > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
    > >
    > > Mike
    > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
    > > _______________________________________________________
    > >
    > > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
    > >
    > > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned 
Officer, a
    > > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize 
that I am a
    > > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone 
of the
    > > Army."
    > >
    > > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and 
will at all
    > > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the 
Military
    > > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I 
find myself.
    > I
    > > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or 
personal
    > > safety.
    > >
    > > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will 
always be
    > > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the 
welfare of my
    > > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically 
proficient. I
    > > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will 
fulfill my
    > > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are 
entitled to
    > > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know 
my soldiers
    > > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will 
communicate
    > > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I 
will be
    > > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and 
punishment.
    > >
    > > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their 
duties
    > they
    > > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and 
confidence
    > > as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with 
whom I
    > serve
    > > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise 
initiative by
    > taking
    > > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not 
compromise my
    > > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I 
allow my
    > > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned 
Officers,
    > > leaders!
    > >
    > >   The United States Army
    > > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
    > > Fort Knox, Kentucky
    > >
    > >
    > > ----- Original Message -----
    > > From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
    > > To: 
    > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
    > > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
    > >
    > >
    > >  > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American 
friends, a
    > > Snr
    > >  > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece 
of paper
    > > that
    > >  > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also 
one of
    > > those,
    > >  > who had, but cannot produce...
    > >  > Ubique
    > >  > Mac
    > >
    > >
    > > --------------------------------------------------------
    > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
    > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
    > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
    > > message body.
    > >
    > > 
_________________________________________________________________________
    > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
    > >
    > > --------------------------------------------------------
    > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
    > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
    > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
    > > message body.
    > >
    >
    > --------------------------------------------------------
    > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
    > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
    > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
    > message body.
    >
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
LOL...good one 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Donald
  Schepens 
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
  Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2001 
11:21
  AM
  Subject: Re: Commission

  Actually, when I first joined, I 
misunderstood
  the question. The recruiter asked, "commission?". I said, 
"**** 
  no, straight wage!"

  Don

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From:
    Ian amp
    McGregor 
    To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
    Sent: Thursday, March 29, 
2001 9:29
    AM
    Subject: Fw: Commission

    There are a few
    changes to the scroll. "men" is changed to "non commissioned 
members,"
    and Canada is listed after the UK and before "her other realms" in 
the
    introduction.

    Ian

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Mike Oleary" ltm.oleary@ns.sympatico.cagt
    To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
    Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 
6:12
    PM
    Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO 
Creed US
    Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
    gt That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission 
is the
    formal grantinggt of authority as an officer in the Canadian 
Forces
    both in the rank ofgt commissioning and in future 
ranks.gt
    gt The following is the text from my scroll:gt
    _______________________________________________gt gt 
Elizabeth
    the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom,
    Canadaand Hergt other Realms and Territories 
Queen,
    Head of the Commonwealth, Defender ofgt the Faith, togt
    ltrecipient‘s namegtgt gt Hereby appointed an 
Officer in Her
    Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.gt With Seniority of the 
lt--gt
    day of lt--gt 19 lt--gt.gt gt We, reposing 
especial
    Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage andgt Integrity, 
do by
    these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an officergt 
in our
    Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and diligently
    togt discharge your Duty as such in the rank of ltrank of
    commissioninggt Or ingt such other Rank as We may from time 
to time
    hereafter be pleased to promotegt or appoint you to, and you 
are in
    such manner and on such occasions as maygt be prescribed by Us 
to
    exercise and well discipline both the Inferiorgt Officers
    andNon Commissioned Membersserving 
under you
    and use your best endeavour to keep themgt in good Order and
    Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey you asgt 
their
    Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders 
andgt
    Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any
    yourgt Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the 
Trust
    hereby reposedgt in you.gt gt In witness Whereof 
Our
    Governor General of Canada hath hereunto sether handgt 
and Seal
    at our Government House in the City of Ottawa 
this
    lt--gt day of lt--gtgt in the Year of Our Lord One 
Two
    Thousand and in the lt--gtgt Year of Our 
Reign.gt
    gt By Command ofHer Excellency the 
Governor
    General ltseal and signaturegtgt gt Minister of 
National
    Defence ltsignaturegtgt
    _________________________________________________gt gt
    Mikegt  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt  gt PS to Joan - the PC-gender 
remark should
    have been taken facetiously, sorrygt if it struck a nerve. You 
have in
    fact established yourself well on thisgt means and no 
disrespect was
    to be inferred, You do remain our only, if notgt one of very 
few,
    female correspondents. Cheers. mikey gt gt 
    gt gt ----- Original Message -----gt From: Joan O. 
Arc
    ltjoan_o_arc@hotmail.comgtgt
    To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
    Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PMgt Subject: Re: NCO 
Creed US
    Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationshipgt gt 
gt gt
    To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could
    someonegt gt please tell me what "commission" means in this 
context
    and what factorsgt gt determine whether one is a CO or an 
NCO? I
    know this is very, very basicgt gt stuff, but without this 
one
    little piece of info., I‘m afraid much elsegt thatgt 
gt is
    being discussed at least partially sails over my head.gt 
gtgt
    gt Thanks,gt gtgt gt Joangt gtgt 
gt PS -
    On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! - 
thegt
    gt post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a 
while
    back.gt Whengt gt I said, "I don‘t expect special 
treatment, I
    just want a chance to kickgt yourgt gt [referring to a 
    theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] tush,"gt 
whatgt
    gt I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect 
anyone
    togt gt water down job standards/requirements for me simply 
because
    I‘m a girl. Ingt gt fact, I would be insulted by an
    organization/employer that did.gt gtgt gt In a 
civilian
    context - which is, of course, where I work - what thisgt
    meansgt gt is that I feel myself well able to compete with 
anyone in
    my field,gt gt regardless of age, gender, etc., under any
    circumstances.gt gtgt gt In a military context, 
however, it
    would mean I would neither seek - norgt gt succeed in - 
combat-type
    roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,gt basically!,gt 
gt
    UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is 
somethinggt
    neithergt gt I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should 
either
    expect or tolerate.gt gtgt gt Hope this is all clear 
now. I
    fear I didn‘t explain my position on thisgt gt recurring 
isue at all
    well last time, for which I apologize.gt gtgt 
gtgt
    gt ----Original Message Follows----gt gt From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike
    Olearygt gt Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.cagt gt
    To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
    gt Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
    relationshipgt gt Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 
-0500gt
    gtgt gt Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my
    databasegt gtgt gt Mikegt gt  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.comgt  gt
    _______________________________________________________gt 
gtgt
    gt The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officergt gtgt 
gt No
    one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, 
agt
    gt leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize 
that I am
    agt gt member of a time-honored corps, which is known as 
"The
    Backbone of thegt gt Army."gt gtgt gt I am 
proud of
    the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at allgt 
gt
    times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the
    Militarygt gt Service and my country regardless of the 
situation in
    which I find myself.gt Igt gt will not use my grade or 
    position to attain pleasure, profit, or personalgt gt
    safety.gt gtgt gt Competence is my watch-word. My 
two basic
    responsibilities will always begt gt uppermost in my mind -
    accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of mygt gt 
soldiers. I
    will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. 
Igt gt
    am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill 
mygt
    gt responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are 
entitled
    togt gt outstanding leadership I will provide that 
leadership. I
    know my soldiersgt gt and I will always place their needs 
above my
    own. I will communicategt gt consistently with my soldiers 
and never
    leave them uninformed. I will begt gt fair and impartial 
when
    recommending both rewards and punishment.gt gtgt gt 
Officers
    of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their 
dutiesgt
    theygt gt will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn 
their
    respect and confidencegt gt as well as that of my 
soldiers. I
    will be loyal to those with whom Igt servegt gt 
seniors,
    peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative bygt
    takinggt gt appropriate action in the absence of orders. I 
will not
    compromise mygt gt integrity, nor my moral courage. I will 
not
    forget, nor will I allow mygt gt comrades to forget that we 
are
    professionals, Non-commissioned Officers,gt gt 
leaders!gt
    gtgt gt The United States Armygt gt
    Non-commissioned Officers Academygt gt Fort Knox, 
Kentuckygt
    gtgt gtgt gt ----- Original Message -----gt 
gt
    From: The MacFarlanes‘ ltdesrtrat@amug.orggtgt gt To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagtgt
    gt Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PMgt gt Subject: Re: 
Sr NCO
    / Officer relationshipgt gtgt gtgt gt 
gt A
    long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends, 
agt
    gt Snrgt gt gt NCOs Creed, which spoke of all 
that. I have
    also had a piece of papergt gt thatgt gt gt 
compared
    Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one ofgt 
gt
    those,gt gt gt who had, but cannot 
produce...gt
    gt gt Ubiquegt gt gt Macgt 
gtgt
    gtgt gt
    --------------------------------------------------------gt 
gt
    NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a 
messagegt gt
    to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from the
    account you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe
    army-list" in thegt gt message body.gt gtgt 
gt

_________________________________________________________________________
gt
    gt Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com.gt 
    gtgt gt
    --------------------------------------------------------gt 
gt
    NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a 
messagegt gt
    to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from the
    account you wish togt gt remove, with the line "unsubscribe
    army-list" in thegt gt message body.gt gtgt 
gt
    --------------------------------------------------------gt 
NOTE:
    To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to 
majordomo@CdnArmy.ca 
from the
    account you wish togt remove, with the line "unsubscribe 
army-list" in
    thegt message body.gt
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 22:40:37 -0700*
John, your suggestion of what a MND should better spend time at and signing
commissioning scrolls are mutually exclusive, as surely you must realize.
Signing any of the other documents you suggest would be the culmination of a
long process, presumably worthy but requring a great deal of input,
consideration, reflection, analysis, search for funding, prioritizing, etc.
That culmination is a miniscule amount of time compared to the prep work
that just the MND would have to do first.
I received my scroll in 1972. It was machine written. In 1974 I had occasion
to meet with Bruce Beatty, who was then on the staff of the Governor
General. Bruce had retired from the Reg Force about 1972 and received a
commission as an officer. He joined the Cadet Services of Canada. All
officers‘ commissioning scrolls of any recent era post Integration are
exactly the same, there is no destinction in the scrolls nor in the
commission between CIC, Reg Force, PRes, etc. Bruce told me that when  he
knew his own scroll was making it‘s way thru the system it still went to
the GGs office for the machine stamp he pulled it from the pile and took it
to the GG to have him sign it personally. Bruce retired from the Reg Force
as a WO  in 1972 and from 1950 to 1972 he worked for the Directorate of
Ceremonial and was the man who designed ALL, every last one, of the Canadian
variant medals, badges, insignia, etc. for DND. There was no one in Canada
at that time that was more of an authority on the matter of correctness in
terms of heraldic design and its symbolism. Not even the "infamous" Col NA
Buckingham, long time DCeremonial. I take his word for the process in effect
that that time.Only as WO, well that goes to show the current ‘rank creep‘
but not the point of this thread, I hope. 
Eight years later, when I transferred from the CIL to the PRes and went thru
the process of boarding, vetting, etc. again I subsequently asked if I was
to receive a second commissioning scroll. I was told that, no, I received
one once and that was all that was ever needed. "Ian, go read the words
again" sort of. Oh, I suppose that someone or two may have received more
than one scroll in their lifetime in Canada, but that would be a
bureaucratic error or misinterpretation.
The scroll signature is very well done by machine I should add, not the type
you find on government cheques, etc of that ilk. I would suggest that the
recipient of scrolls from the 1970s onward doublecheck, but perhaps saner
heads have prevailed and in later years they are all personaly signed, I
hope so.
John, if you feel that the scrolls are relatively unimportant, perhaps it is
because you never received one granted, for sure, because you never wanted
a commission. If they do not have any significant symbolic value then
pehaps what you are alluding to is that the scrolls should be run off on a
piece of cheap bond letter size paper,  Times Roman 12 point or similar
generic style, or not bothered with at all. Perhaps just send the new
officer an e-mail and let it go at that it will appear on his/her unit‘s RO
in due course, likely has already. My whole point was that a real signature
was a minimal time requirement relative to the symbolic value in the mind of
the recipient witness that virtually no officer ever throws out his/her
scroll at least while still in the CF, even though it is never required to
be produced as evidence of the receipient holding a comission - somehow just
doesn‘t photocopy well, etc.. Let‘s go back to numbered battalions while we
are at it, damn the "need" for symbolism.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Gow 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have to
> personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
> time..
>
> Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
> orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment and
> reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an
improvement
> to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
> point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the
overall
> meal..
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Edwards" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Commission,
>
>
> > I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf of
> > Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> > exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for something
> so
> > important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the "higher
> > paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Beth MacFarlane 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> > Officer relationship
> >
> >
> > > Hey Mike!
> > > Guess who signed my scroll?  Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> > Sauve.  It
> > > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it.  1986.  A
> > lifetime
> > > ago. :.
> > > Beth
> > >
> > > Mike Oleary wrote:
> > >
> > > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > > >
> > > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> > Queen‘s
> > > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." -
1RCR
> > Guide
> > > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > > >
> > > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me a
> > > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> > conferred
> > > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
> responsibility
> > in
> > > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and
honourable
> > > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> > Military
> > > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17,
Summer,
> > 1990
> > > >
> > > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing body
of
> > men
> > > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
> their
> > > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will not
> > make
> > > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place you
> in
> > a
> > > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:17:56 -0500*
Wellll...
As usual, I beg to differ, knowing this will raw fire from all quarters..
Ian, you are right.  I have never held, nor likely will I eve hold a Queen‘s
Commission.  I theoretically held a "warrant" much good did it do me in
terms of a piece of paper a reference a recommendation, seems the
commissioned types except Mike and Don don‘t have much truck with
rankers....But that, again, is the System...paper costs money, and money
doesn‘t got to the men.
Okay, so lets go to who gets what scrap of paper.  The 2Lt that stays six
months?  Versus the WO that is in 20 years and gets, given good behaviour,
the CD?
My father was a war veteran, as you know...subsequently a federal government
employee.  Got a 35 year plaque signed by Joe Clark as PM, congratulating
his service see me on "Antiques Roadshow in 20 years...but, signed of
course in replica....not an original signature...for a veteran?  Live shells
shot in hate?  Son of a survivor of Vimy, Passchendale, Ypres etc?
Back to modern day...
So to quote you, yes..."perhaps I never received one..."  perhaps...just
maybe, as a WO and MWO over a decade...just maybe I qualified?...for a
measly Warrant?  Would have accepted a facsimile of signature...am just not
quite "there" with your insistance that every six month wonder in the Cadet
Corps, the PRes etc should attract an original signature....
Back to my original point..doesn‘t the Minister have better things to do.
given how this Board beats up on him so well?  Or is your point that
Elizabeth is a lazy old bitch and the Crown should spend her days signing
off on subalterns?
Dumb Issue, if you ask me...which of course you did not.
The rest of the NCM types should blast you...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> John, your suggestion of what a MND should better spend time at and
signing
> commissioning scrolls are mutually exclusive, as surely you must realize.
> Signing any of the other documents you suggest would be the culmination of
a
> long process, presumably worthy but requring a great deal of input,
> consideration, reflection, analysis, search for funding, prioritizing,
etc.
> That culmination is a miniscule amount of time compared to the prep work
> that just the MND would have to do first.
>
> I received my scroll in 1972. It was machine written. In 1974 I had
occasion
> to meet with Bruce Beatty, who was then on the staff of the Governor
> General. Bruce had retired from the Reg Force about 1972 and received a
> commission as an officer. He joined the Cadet Services of Canada. All
> officers‘ commissioning scrolls of any recent era post Integration are
> exactly the same, there is no destinction in the scrolls nor in the
> commission between CIC, Reg Force, PRes, etc. Bruce told me that when  he
> knew his own scroll was making it‘s way thru the system it still went to
> the GGs office for the machine stamp he pulled it from the pile and took
it
> to the GG to have him sign it personally. Bruce retired from the Reg Force
> as a WO  in 1972 and from 1950 to 1972 he worked for the Directorate of
> Ceremonial and was the man who designed ALL, every last one, of the
Canadian
> variant medals, badges, insignia, etc. for DND. There was no one in Canada
> at that time that was more of an authority on the matter of correctness in
> terms of heraldic design and its symbolism. Not even the "infamous" Col NA
> Buckingham, long time DCeremonial. I take his word for the process in
effect
> that that time.Only as WO, well that goes to show the current ‘rank
creep‘
> but not the point of this thread, I hope. 
>
> Eight years later, when I transferred from the CIL to the PRes and went
thru
> the process of boarding, vetting, etc. again I subsequently asked if I was
> to receive a second commissioning scroll. I was told that, no, I received
> one once and that was all that was ever needed. "Ian, go read the words
> again" sort of. Oh, I suppose that someone or two may have received more
> than one scroll in their lifetime in Canada, but that would be a
> bureaucratic error or misinterpretation.
>
> The scroll signature is very well done by machine I should add, not the
type
> you find on government cheques, etc of that ilk. I would suggest that the
> recipient of scrolls from the 1970s onward doublecheck, but perhaps saner
> heads have prevailed and in later years they are all personaly signed, I
> hope so.
>
> John, if you feel that the scrolls are relatively unimportant, perhaps it
is
> because you never received one granted, for sure, because you never
wanted
> a commission. If they do not have any significant symbolic value then
> pehaps what you are alluding to is that the scrolls should be run off on a
> piece of cheap bond letter size paper,  Times Roman 12 point or similar
> generic style, or not bothered with at all. Perhaps just send the new
> officer an e-mail and let it go at that it will appear on his/her unit‘s
RO
> in due course, likely has already. My whole point was that a real
signature
> was a minimal time requirement relative to the symbolic value in the mind
of
> the recipient witness that virtually no officer ever throws out his/her
> scroll at least while still in the CF, even though it is never required to
> be produced as evidence of the receipient holding a comission - somehow
just
> doesn‘t photocopy well, etc.. Let‘s go back to numbered battalions while
we
> are at it, damn the "need" for symbolism.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Gow 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Commission,
>
>
> > Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have
to
> > personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
> > time..
> >
> > Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
> > orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment
and
> > reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an
> improvement
> > to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
> > point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the
> overall
> > meal..
> >
> > John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ian Edwards" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commission,
> >
> >
> > > I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf
of
> > > Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> > > exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for
something
> > so
> > > important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the
"higher
> > > paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Beth MacFarlane 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> > > Officer relationship
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey Mike!
> > > > Guess who signed my scroll?  Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> > > Sauve.  It
> > > > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it.  1986.
A
> > > lifetime
> > > > ago. :.
> > > > Beth
> > > >
> > > > Mike Oleary wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > > > >
> > > > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> > > Queen‘s
> > > > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." -
> 1RCR
> > > Guide
> > > > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > > > >
> > > > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me
a
> > > > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> > > conferred
> > > > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
> > responsibility
> > > in
> > > > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and
> honourable
> > > > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> > > Military
> > > > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17,
> Summer,
> > > 1990
> > > > >
> > > > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body
> of
> > > men
> > > > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
> > their
> > > > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will
not
> > > make
> > > > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place
you
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Fri, 30 Mar 2001 01:57:38 -0500*
I really cannot believe we could possibly be having this conversation.
Is this really how officers think of other ranks?
Isn‘t this just a little too "puffy"?
Where did "the men" lose it, in importance in the overall scheme of things?
Please, SOMEBODY, answer this conundrum...
Else, in my opinion, versus that expressed, we are unirrevocably down the
tubes...but what the hey?  look at how little tax we pay?
Godddammit to **** !
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Edwards" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Commission,
> John, your suggestion of what a MND should better spend time at and
signing
> commissioning scrolls are mutually exclusive, as surely you must realize.
> Signing any of the other documents you suggest would be the culmination of
a
> long process, presumably worthy but requring a great deal of input,
> consideration, reflection, analysis, search for funding, prioritizing,
etc.
> That culmination is a miniscule amount of time compared to the prep work
> that just the MND would have to do first.
>
> I received my scroll in 1972. It was machine written. In 1974 I had
occasion
> to meet with Bruce Beatty, who was then on the staff of the Governor
> General. Bruce had retired from the Reg Force about 1972 and received a
> commission as an officer. He joined the Cadet Services of Canada. All
> officers‘ commissioning scrolls of any recent era post Integration are
> exactly the same, there is no destinction in the scrolls nor in the
> commission between CIC, Reg Force, PRes, etc. Bruce told me that when  he
> knew his own scroll was making it‘s way thru the system it still went to
> the GGs office for the machine stamp he pulled it from the pile and took
it
> to the GG to have him sign it personally. Bruce retired from the Reg Force
> as a WO  in 1972 and from 1950 to 1972 he worked for the Directorate of
> Ceremonial and was the man who designed ALL, every last one, of the
Canadian
> variant medals, badges, insignia, etc. for DND. There was no one in Canada
> at that time that was more of an authority on the matter of correctness in
> terms of heraldic design and its symbolism. Not even the "infamous" Col NA
> Buckingham, long time DCeremonial. I take his word for the process in
effect
> that that time.Only as WO, well that goes to show the current ‘rank
creep‘
> but not the point of this thread, I hope. 
>
> Eight years later, when I transferred from the CIL to the PRes and went
thru
> the process of boarding, vetting, etc. again I subsequently asked if I was
> to receive a second commissioning scroll. I was told that, no, I received
> one once and that was all that was ever needed. "Ian, go read the words
> again" sort of. Oh, I suppose that someone or two may have received more
> than one scroll in their lifetime in Canada, but that would be a
> bureaucratic error or misinterpretation.
>
> The scroll signature is very well done by machine I should add, not the
type
> you find on government cheques, etc of that ilk. I would suggest that the
> recipient of scrolls from the 1970s onward doublecheck, but perhaps saner
> heads have prevailed and in later years they are all personaly signed, I
> hope so.
>
> John, if you feel that the scrolls are relatively unimportant, perhaps it
is
> because you never received one granted, for sure, because you never
wanted
> a commission. If they do not have any significant symbolic value then
> pehaps what you are alluding to is that the scrolls should be run off on a
> piece of cheap bond letter size paper,  Times Roman 12 point or similar
> generic style, or not bothered with at all. Perhaps just send the new
> officer an e-mail and let it go at that it will appear on his/her unit‘s
RO
> in due course, likely has already. My whole point was that a real
signature
> was a minimal time requirement relative to the symbolic value in the mind
of
> the recipient witness that virtually no officer ever throws out his/her
> scroll at least while still in the CF, even though it is never required to
> be produced as evidence of the receipient holding a comission - somehow
just
> doesn‘t photocopy well, etc.. Let‘s go back to numbered battalions while
we
> are at it, damn the "need" for symbolism.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Gow 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Commission,
>
>
> > Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have
to
> > personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
> > time..
> >
> > Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
> > orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment
and
> > reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an
> improvement
> > to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
> > point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the
> overall
> > meal..
> >
> > John
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ian Edwards" 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commission,
> >
> >
> > > I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf
of
> > > Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> > > exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for
something
> > so
> > > important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the
"higher
> > > paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Beth MacFarlane 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> > > Officer relationship
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey Mike!
> > > > Guess who signed my scroll?  Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> > > Sauve.  It
> > > > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it.  1986.
A
> > > lifetime
> > > > ago. :.
> > > > Beth
> > > >
> > > > Mike Oleary wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > > > >
> > > > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> > > Queen‘s
> > > > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." -
> 1RCR
> > > Guide
> > > > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > > > >
> > > > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me
a
> > > > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> > > conferred
> > > > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
> > responsibility
> > > in
> > > > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and
> honourable
> > > > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> > > Military
> > > > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17,
> Summer,
> > > 1990
> > > > >
> > > > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing
body
> of
> > > men
> > > > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
> > their
> > > > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will
not
> > > make
> > > > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place
you
> > in
> > > a
> > > > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army

Posted by *Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:53:57 -0400*
I am rather proud of my warrant and I should hope that any officer would be
equally as proud of their commission scroll.  I don‘t  really think that my
Captain General is a "lazy bitch".
Ubique
CWO MacFarlane, R.A. , CD1 ret‘d
John Gow wrote:
> Wellll...
>
> As usual, I beg to differ, knowing this will raw fire from all quarters..
>
> Ian, you are right.  I have never held, nor likely will I eve hold a Queen‘s
> Commission.  I theoretically held a "warrant" much good did it do me in
> terms of a piece of paper a reference a recommendation, seems the
> commissioned types except Mike and Don don‘t have much truck with
> rankers....But that, again, is the System...paper costs money, and money
> doesn‘t got to the men.
>
> Okay, so lets go to who gets what scrap of paper.  The 2Lt that stays six
> months?  Versus the WO that is in 20 years and gets, given good behaviour,
> the CD?
>
> My father was a war veteran, as you know...subsequently a federal government
> employee.  Got a 35 year plaque signed by Joe Clark as PM, congratulating
> his service see me on "Antiques Roadshow in 20 years...but, signed of
> course in replica....not an original signature...for a veteran?  Live shells
> shot in hate?  Son of a survivor of Vimy, Passchendale, Ypres etc?
>
> Back to modern day...
>
> So to quote you, yes..."perhaps I never received one..."  perhaps...just
> maybe, as a WO and MWO over a decade...just maybe I qualified?...for a
> measly Warrant?  Would have accepted a facsimile of signature...am just not
> quite "there" with your insistance that every six month wonder in the Cadet
> Corps, the PRes etc should attract an original signature....
>
> Back to my original point..doesn‘t the Minister have better things to do.
> given how this Board beats up on him so well?  Or is your point that
> Elizabeth is a lazy old bitch and the Crown should spend her days signing
> off on subalterns?
>
> Dumb Issue, if you ask me...which of course you did not.
>
> The rest of the NCM types should blast you...
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Edwards" 
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 12:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Commission,
>
> > John, your suggestion of what a MND should better spend time at and
> signing
> > commissioning scrolls are mutually exclusive, as surely you must realize.
> > Signing any of the other documents you suggest would be the culmination of
> a
> > long process, presumably worthy but requring a great deal of input,
> > consideration, reflection, analysis, search for funding, prioritizing,
> etc.
> > That culmination is a miniscule amount of time compared to the prep work
> > that just the MND would have to do first.
> >
> > I received my scroll in 1972. It was machine written. In 1974 I had
> occasion
> > to meet with Bruce Beatty, who was then on the staff of the Governor
> > General. Bruce had retired from the Reg Force about 1972 and received a
> > commission as an officer. He joined the Cadet Services of Canada. All
> > officers‘ commissioning scrolls of any recent era post Integration are
> > exactly the same, there is no destinction in the scrolls nor in the
> > commission between CIC, Reg Force, PRes, etc. Bruce told me that when  he
> > knew his own scroll was making it‘s way thru the system it still went to
> > the GGs office for the machine stamp he pulled it from the pile and took
> it
> > to the GG to have him sign it personally. Bruce retired from the Reg Force
> > as a WO  in 1972 and from 1950 to 1972 he worked for the Directorate of
> > Ceremonial and was the man who designed ALL, every last one, of the
> Canadian
> > variant medals, badges, insignia, etc. for DND. There was no one in Canada
> > at that time that was more of an authority on the matter of correctness in
> > terms of heraldic design and its symbolism. Not even the "infamous" Col NA
> > Buckingham, long time DCeremonial. I take his word for the process in
> effect
> > that that time.Only as WO, well that goes to show the current ‘rank
> creep‘
> > but not the point of this thread, I hope. 
> >
> > Eight years later, when I transferred from the CIL to the PRes and went
> thru
> > the process of boarding, vetting, etc. again I subsequently asked if I was
> > to receive a second commissioning scroll. I was told that, no, I received
> > one once and that was all that was ever needed. "Ian, go read the words
> > again" sort of. Oh, I suppose that someone or two may have received more
> > than one scroll in their lifetime in Canada, but that would be a
> > bureaucratic error or misinterpretation.
> >
> > The scroll signature is very well done by machine I should add, not the
> type
> > you find on government cheques, etc of that ilk. I would suggest that the
> > recipient of scrolls from the 1970s onward doublecheck, but perhaps saner
> > heads have prevailed and in later years they are all personaly signed, I
> > hope so.
> >
> > John, if you feel that the scrolls are relatively unimportant, perhaps it
> is
> > because you never received one granted, for sure, because you never
> wanted
> > a commission. If they do not have any significant symbolic value then
> > pehaps what you are alluding to is that the scrolls should be run off on a
> > piece of cheap bond letter size paper,  Times Roman 12 point or similar
> > generic style, or not bothered with at all. Perhaps just send the new
> > officer an e-mail and let it go at that it will appear on his/her unit‘s
> RO
> > in due course, likely has already. My whole point was that a real
> signature
> > was a minimal time requirement relative to the symbolic value in the mind
> of
> > the recipient witness that virtually no officer ever throws out his/her
> > scroll at least while still in the CF, even though it is never required to
> > be produced as evidence of the receipient holding a comission - somehow
> just
> > doesn‘t photocopy well, etc.. Let‘s go back to numbered battalions while
> we
> > are at it, damn the "need" for symbolism.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John Gow 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 9:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commission,
> >
> >
> > > Sorry Ian, but I‘d sooner the ministers of the government did not have
> to
> > > personally ink their signatures on commissions...really what a waste of
> > > time..
> > >
> > > Let them instead ink their signatures to any number of things...such as
> > > orders that would bring better harmony to the Forces better treatment
> and
> > > reward to the men, protection and coverage to their families, an
> > improvement
> > > to the induction process...well, the list is long, but you get the
> > > point...their autograph on a scroll is pretty small potato‘s in the
> > overall
> > > meal..
> > >
> > > John
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ian Edwards" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 11:18 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Commission,
> > >
> > >
> > > > I‘m willing to give odds that it was a machine that signed on behalf
> of
> > > > Beatty/Sauve. That‘s the way they have been done I know of a few
> > > > exceptions for the last 35 years at least. That‘s a pity, for
> something
> > > so
> > > > important. And for the 10 minutes per day that it would take the
> "higher
> > > > paid help" wouldn‘t get writers‘ cramp.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Beth MacFarlane 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:57 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
> > > > Officer relationship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hey Mike!
> > > > > Guess who signed my scroll?  Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne
> > > > Sauve.  It
> > > > > seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it.  1986.
> A
> > > > lifetime
> > > > > ago. :.
> > > > > Beth
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike Oleary wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > A few applicable notes on Commissions:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The
> > > > Queen‘s
> > > > > > commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." -
> > 1RCR
> > > > Guide
> > > > > > for Young Officers, March 1972
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me
> a
> > > > > > Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be
> > > > conferred
> > > > > > upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and
> > > responsibility
> > > > in
> > > > > > the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and
> > honourable
> > > > > > profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta
> > > > Military
> > > > > > Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17,
> > Summer,
> > > > 1990
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "When you join your organization you will find there a willing
> body
> > of
> > > > men
> > > > > > who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command
> > > their
> > > > > > respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will
> not
> > > > make
> > > > > > you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place
> you
> > > in
> > > > a
> > > > > > position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> > > > > > attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > > > message body.
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
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> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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>
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----------



## army

Posted by *Greg Hawes <hawes@SEDSystems.ca>* on *Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:58:11 -0600 (CST)*
Hi,
Just noticed your signoff, CWO - did you not receive a 
CWO scroll once promoted to that lofty rank  I only ask 
because I was honoured enough to present one to a 
relatively new CWO only two weeks past.
greg
On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:53:57 -0400 Beth MacFarlane 
 wrote:
> I am rather proud of my warrant and I should hope that any officer would be
> equally as proud of their commission scroll.  I don‘t  really think that my
> Captain General is a "lazy bitch".
> Ubique
> CWO MacFarlane, R.A. , CD1 ret‘d
> 
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----------



## army

Posted by *Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Fri, 30 Mar 2001 18:35:06 -0400*
Hi Greg!
The warrant of which I spoke, is, in fact, the scroll.  If you presented one, you
must be a CO.  What unit?
Ubique
Bob
Greg Hawes wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Just noticed your signoff, CWO - did you not receive a
> CWO scroll once promoted to that lofty rank  I only ask
> because I was honoured enough to present one to a
> relatively new CWO only two weeks past.
>
> greg
>
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:53:57 -0400 Beth MacFarlane
>  wrote:
>
> > I am rather proud of my warrant and I should hope that any officer would be
> > equally as proud of their commission scroll.  I don‘t  really think that my
> > Captain General is a "lazy bitch".
> > Ubique
> > CWO MacFarlane, R.A. , CD1 ret‘d
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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----------

