# The Snowbirds



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sat, 23 Jun 2001 18:24:27 -0400*
Good Evening Listers
An interesting article appeared in today‘s Hamilton Spectator on the CF 
Snowbird squadron.
The writer held forth the opinion that the Snowbirds were a waste of 
time and money, flew antiquated aircraft, had no training mission, acted 
like hot shots in leather jackets etc etc, and did little beyond burn up 
valuable gas, eat maintenance assets etc etc...
The writer felt that the money thus expended would be better put to 
updating quarters, increasing pay scales and incredibly in "beefing 
up" Canada‘s contribution to peace keeping, rather than doing 18-20 
shows of aerobotics a year.
Any opinions out there in cyber land? 
I personally have some arguments.
John
Good Evening Listers
An interesting article appeared in 
today‘s Hamilton
Spectator on the CF Snowbird squadron.
The writer held forth the opinion that 
the
Snowbirds were a waste of time and money, flew antiquated aircraft, had 
no
training mission, acted like hot shots in leather jackets etc etc, and 
did
little beyond burn up valuable gas, eat maintenance assets etc
etc...
The writer felt that the money thus 
expended would
be better put to updating quarters, increasing pay scales and 
incredibly in
"beefing up" Canada‘s contribution to peace keeping, rather than doing 
18-20
shows of aerobotics a year.
Any opinions out there in cyber 
land?
I personally have some 
arguments.
John
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:42:03 -0600*
We need Bands, Strathcona Mounted Troop, Snowbirds, SkyHawks, etc in
order to take the military to communities that do not have a base or
unit close by.  If you don‘t let the taxpayers see what they are paying
for they are going to be indifferent to paying for it.
How much are we willing to pay though?
> John Gow wrote:
> 
> Good Evening Listers
> 
> An interesting article appeared in today‘s Hamilton Spectator on the
> CF Snowbird squadron.
> 
> The writer held forth the opinion that the Snowbirds were a waste of
> time and money, flew antiquated aircraft, had no training mission,
> acted like hot shots in leather jackets etc etc, and did little beyond
> burn up valuable gas, eat maintenance assets etc etc...
> 
> The writer felt that the money thus expended would be better put to
> updating quarters, increasing pay scales and incredibly in "beefing
> up" Canada‘s contribution to peace keeping, rather than doing 18-20
> shows of aerobotics a year.
> 
> Any opinions out there in cyber land?
> 
> I personally have some arguments.
> 
> John
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:11:15 EDT*
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:12:01 EDT*
Good point, Gunner.

--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 06:34:44 -0300*
I agree with Gunner......we need these groups to keep the Forces in the
public eye - just as we all love the RCMP Musical Ride although that costs
us a bundle each year as well.   I‘d rather my tax dollar be spent on these
PR groups than go to raises in MP‘s salaries......SkyHawks....hmmmmm...don‘t
they jump out of airplanes?   Maybe some of the MPs could form a similar
team.........
Beth
Gunner wrote:
> We need Bands, Strathcona Mounted Troop, Snowbirds, SkyHawks, etc in
> order to take the military to communities that do not have a base or
> unit close by.  If you don‘t let the taxpayers see what they are paying
> for they are going to be indifferent to paying for it.
>
> How much are we willing to pay though?
>
> > John Gow wrote:
> >
> > Good Evening Listers
> >
> > An interesting article appeared in today‘s Hamilton Spectator on the
> > CF Snowbird squadron.
> >
> > The writer held forth the opinion that the Snowbirds were a waste of
> > time and money, flew antiquated aircraft, had no training mission,
> > acted like hot shots in leather jackets etc etc, and did little beyond
> > burn up valuable gas, eat maintenance assets etc etc...
> >
> > The writer felt that the money thus expended would be better put to
> > updating quarters, increasing pay scales and incredibly in "beefing
> > up" Canada‘s contribution to peace keeping, rather than doing 18-20
> > shows of aerobotics a year.
> >
> > Any opinions out there in cyber land?
> >
> > I personally have some arguments.
> >
> > John
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 11:31:00 EDT*
LOL, Beth...
I got dibs on packing ‘Uncle Jean‘s chute.
        Matt
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Jason King" <indian_jew@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:35:03 -0500*
Teams like the Snowbirds are great. But with the current situation our 
military is in, we really can‘t afford them. In an age where our servicemen 
and women are put in danger because of old equipment and when our total Reg. 
Force composition has falled below 60,000, can we afford them? Ture, they 
are a good recruiting tool, but before we think recruiting flash, we must 
first think of giving the people currently in our forces the ability to do 
their jobs. Quality equipment and training, as well as adequate pay can be 
very good recruiting tools also.
I would love to keep the Snowbirds, but to do so I think we need to expand 
the CF budget drastically and get the rest of our house in order. We can no 
longer pretend that we can afford luxuries like this.
>From: Gunner 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:42:03 -0600
>
>We need Bands, Strathcona Mounted Troop, Snowbirds, SkyHawks, etc in
>order to take the military to communities that do not have a base or
>unit close by.  If you don‘t let the taxpayers see what they are paying
>for they are going to be indifferent to paying for it.
>
>How much are we willing to pay though?
>
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Jean-Francois Menicucci <menicucci@videotron.ca>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:04:01 -0400*
ok, tell me guys. If that Snowbird did his flight perfectly, and did a landing
instead of crashing,
does that argument about them would even exist?
They are a question of recruiting, access to community, presence but also a
question of traditions.
a presence that the CF should continue to do, because in a certain way, other
Armed Forces have
these types of activities. In a certain way its is a mean of visibilty,
nationaly and internationaly.
Jason King wrote:
> Teams like the Snowbirds are great. But with the current situation our
> military is in, we really can‘t afford them. In an age where our servicemen
> and women are put in danger because of old equipment and when our total Reg.
> Force composition has falled below 60,000, can we afford them? Ture, they
> are a good recruiting tool, but before we think recruiting flash, we must
> first think of giving the people currently in our forces the ability to do
> their jobs. Quality equipment and training, as well as adequate pay can be
> very good recruiting tools also.
>
> I would love to keep the Snowbirds, but to do so I think we need to expand
> the CF budget drastically and get the rest of our house in order. We can no
> longer pretend that we can afford luxuries like this.
>
> >From: Gunner 
> >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:42:03 -0600
> >
> >We need Bands, Strathcona Mounted Troop, Snowbirds, SkyHawks, etc in
> >order to take the military to communities that do not have a base or
> >unit close by.  If you don‘t let the taxpayers see what they are paying
> >for they are going to be indifferent to paying for it.
> >
> >How much are we willing to pay though?
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Jason King" <indian_jew@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:13:08 -0500*
I have had this arguement before the crash.
I agree with you and all others who say the SB‘s are a valuable recruiting 
tool and tradition. However, when it comes to recruiting tools and 
traditions, they are second place to ensuring our forces can do their jobs 
without any unessicary risk. The job of any military force to to train for 
and fight wars. We have to be able to do that first and foremost, before all 
else. And with our current fiscal situation I doubt whether we can do that 
or not.
I love having the Snowbirds. But I don‘t think we can afford them right now. 
Don‘t blame me, I‘m not the one who put the CF in this mess. Either the 
gov‘t puts more cash forward or we have to cut more.
>From: Jean-Francois Menicucci 
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
>Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:04:01 -0400
>
>ok, tell me guys. If that Snowbird did his flight perfectly, and did a 
>landing
>instead of crashing,
>does that argument about them would even exist?
>
>They are a question of recruiting, access to community, presence but also a
>question of traditions.
>a presence that the CF should continue to do, because in a certain way, 
>other
>Armed Forces have
>these types of activities. In a certain way its is a mean of visibilty,
>nationaly and internationaly.
>
>
>
>
>Jason King wrote:
>
> > Teams like the Snowbirds are great. But with the current situation our
> > military is in, we really can‘t afford them. In an age where our 
>servicemen
> > and women are put in danger because of old equipment and when our total 
>Reg.
> > Force composition has falled below 60,000, can we afford them? Ture, 
>they
> > are a good recruiting tool, but before we think recruiting flash, we 
>must
> > first think of giving the people currently in our forces the ability to 
>do
> > their jobs. Quality equipment and training, as well as adequate pay can 
>be
> > very good recruiting tools also.
> >
> > I would love to keep the Snowbirds, but to do so I think we need to 
>expand
> > the CF budget drastically and get the rest of our house in order. We can 
>no
> > longer pretend that we can afford luxuries like this.
> >
> > >From: Gunner 
> > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> > >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:42:03 -0600
> > >
> > >We need Bands, Strathcona Mounted Troop, Snowbirds, SkyHawks, etc in
> > >order to take the military to communities that do not have a base or
> > >unit close by.  If you don‘t let the taxpayers see what they are paying
> > >for they are going to be indifferent to paying for it.
> > >
> > >How much are we willing to pay though?
> > >
> >
> > 
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:10:11 -0400*
Just to pour a little more gas on this fire...
I wasn‘t referring to the crash/collision episode, though undoubtably the
newspaper writer was, because "it" was not conditioned to thinking about
working in the CF environment where mistakes may get you killed, or hurt...
Aside from the Snowbirds, frankly I don‘t see a lot of recruiting tools...
Neither am I a historian, nor an officer, but "unneccessary" risk?  How
about "acceptable" risks?
Nor do I believe the CF is presently equipped, supplied, or staffed to fight
a war and is only marginally able to meet its peacekeeping commitments, and
there for not much longer...
I will pound on the point one more time that fliers must be allowed to
fly...because I‘d hate to see the mistakes in an expensive F18, if they
could be had in a Tudor instead...much cheaper to lose an obsolescent
trainer, isn‘t it?and likely uses less gas
And, forgive me, but Mr Martin is showing a considerable surplus...even more
than he predicts,,,so we are not hurting, we are in the window of
opportunity to correct past parsimony step in and correct me if the media
reporting this is lying!
So is boils down to "Does the taxpayer want their service personnel to be
equipped for safe execution of the mission that the taxpayer/voter gives
them?"  Or do they chose the death/disability benefit payout instead?  And
how does this attract good men and women into the Service? Or are we just
simply carried away with the godallmighty dollar in "tax cuts"?
I realize when you pose a question to the List that good manners compel you
to take the responses as they come, but the response from Jason was such
that I had to respond, and I apologize for the "bad manners" shown in so
doing...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason King" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> I have had this arguement before the crash.
>
> I agree with you and all others who say the SB‘s are a valuable recruiting
> tool and tradition. However, when it comes to recruiting tools and
> traditions, they are second place to ensuring our forces can do their jobs
> without any unessicary risk. The job of any military force to to train for
> and fight wars. We have to be able to do that first and foremost, before
all
> else. And with our current fiscal situation I doubt whether we can do that
> or not.
>
> I love having the Snowbirds. But I don‘t think we can afford them right
now.
> Don‘t blame me, I‘m not the one who put the CF in this mess. Either the
> gov‘t puts more cash forward or we have to cut more.
>
>
> >From: Jean-Francois Menicucci 
> >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> >Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> >Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:04:01 -0400
> >
> >ok, tell me guys. If that Snowbird did his flight perfectly, and did a
> >landing
> >instead of crashing,
> >does that argument about them would even exist?
> >
> >They are a question of recruiting, access to community, presence but also
a
> >question of traditions.
> >a presence that the CF should continue to do, because in a certain way,
> >other
> >Armed Forces have
> >these types of activities. In a certain way its is a mean of visibilty,
> >nationaly and internationaly.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Jason King wrote:
> >
> > > Teams like the Snowbirds are great. But with the current situation our
> > > military is in, we really can‘t afford them. In an age where our
> >servicemen
> > > and women are put in danger because of old equipment and when our
total
> >Reg.
> > > Force composition has falled below 60,000, can we afford them? Ture,
> >they
> > > are a good recruiting tool, but before we think recruiting flash, we
> >must
> > > first think of giving the people currently in our forces the ability
to
> >do
> > > their jobs. Quality equipment and training, as well as adequate pay
can
> >be
> > > very good recruiting tools also.
> > >
> > > I would love to keep the Snowbirds, but to do so I think we need to
> >expand
> > > the CF budget drastically and get the rest of our house in order. We
can
> >no
> > > longer pretend that we can afford luxuries like this.
> > >
> > > >From: Gunner 
> > > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > >Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> > > >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:42:03 -0600
> > > >
> > > >We need Bands, Strathcona Mounted Troop, Snowbirds, SkyHawks, etc in
> > > >order to take the military to communities that do not have a base or
> > > >unit close by.  If you don‘t let the taxpayers see what they are
paying
> > > >for they are going to be indifferent to paying for it.
> > > >
> > > >How much are we willing to pay though?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >_________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> >http://www.hotmail.com.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> >message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:01:46 -0600*
With the exception of about 6 readers of this mailing list I really have my
doubts that ‘joe taxpayer‘ cares about the viability of the snowbirds or the
skyhawks or the LdSH riding troop.
Unfortunately it is a knee jerk reaction by the wonderful press and some
readers feel they must get dragged into the discussion. It really isn‘t army
‘stuff‘ either. It made a 30 second clip on out National news and prompted
some malcontents to start scribblin rhetoric for their editors. It will go
on for a bit then die a natural death when some housewife in a PMQ gets
peaved with the cabinet arrangement and pays Col flag to get her some access
to information to share with a foolhardy journalist. In about a year
somebody will learn the cause of the crash and most Canadians will say ...
‘Isn‘t a snowbird a person who spends the winter in da states?‘
After the salem witch-hunt here and a few posts about why we need a queen in
order to have loyalty to our country, I guess talking about the Air Force
serves as some relief.
arte et marte
anderson sends:
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@fastq.com>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:11:36 -0700*
Well, I have about a hundred different threads of debate going on in my
pea-brain, including what John touched on, perks, necessity vs "nice" How
did we manage Vimy with no Gore-Tex? etc etc. I will try to stick to the
crux if the debate "Snowbirds or not". The first question that leaps to mind
yes, I know that I am an idealist  "Why does it have to be either or??"
Once again, or still, the silent majority is letting the politicos tell us
what we can have, or not. They must know what is best, because no one else
speaks up. Well, except maybe the media - har har. I know ! Let‘s have a
properly tasked and equipped Armed Forces.. AND... maintain their proud
traditions..! OK, so the realist sets in, and says, in today‘s society we
need social programs, and those are the people who control the vote, and
yada yada yada.. that‘s not going to happen. Back to the question - I think,
especially for the older folks, this type of debate generates a visceral
reaction because it is only a symptom, and we won‘t cure the disease. It‘s
one more tradition one more source of pride one more thing to be taken,
and never given back. Another nick, in the death of a thousand cuts. The
fatalist in me says - screw it. They are dismantling our Armed Services.
Even if we had a plausible mission, we probably couldn‘t carry it out.The
public isn‘t interested the people interested aren‘t loud or active enough.
Let‘s scrap the window dressing, rely on our neighbours, let the Politicians
bear the embarrassment for awhile, and put a little extra in everyone‘s tax
return next year. Then I think of the people - the men and women I‘ve seen,
read about, and served with - I know our pride won‘t let us do it that way
either. Darn this stuff gets me worked up......
Ubique
MacF
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@fastq.com>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:15:28 -0700*
OK,OK... now I feel foolish.....
Good post, Sir
----- Original Message -----
From: "William J  Anderson" 
To: "army@cipherlogic.on.ca" 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> With the exception of about 6 readers of this mailing list I really have
my
> doubts that ‘joe taxpayer‘ cares about the viability of the snowbirds or
the
> skyhawks or the LdSH riding troop.
>
> >
> After the salem witch-hunt here and a few posts about why we need a queen
in
> order to have loyalty to our country, I guess talking about the Air Force
> serves as some relief.
>
> arte et marte
>
> anderson sends:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:37:09 -0400*
Sorry you should feel that way Andy...
October 25 1975, presentation of colours to my PRes unit, and subsequent
laying up of the old colours...
Yes, thats not much news in the mill today...but in the bigger picture, its
likely NEWS...
And it doesn‘t happen too often...
And it costs money when it does, and Joe, the theoretical taxpayer, foots
the bill...
And when Jane the PMQ dweller gets riled enough to bitch at Col Flague, she
also gets hit with a blinding tax bill, does she not? Why should not these
scum sucking idiots pay their rightful share?  Like that got deducted from
the pay a zillion years ago, and anyone that tried to live in them
understands that they are worse than the "projects"  But oh well...
So under the current system, a Regiment lays down its previous Colours, and,
through Non-Public Funds ie the money the members and associates, not the
taxpayer stump up, they have to get an amalgamated band from Christ alone
knows how many other units to play....
But we all get a big tax rebate...so why should we care?
I‘m not Frasier Crane, but I am "Listening"
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "William J  Anderson" 
To: "army@cipherlogic.on.ca" 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> With the exception of about 6 readers of this mailing list I really have
my
> doubts that ‘joe taxpayer‘ cares about the viability of the snowbirds or
the
> skyhawks or the LdSH riding troop.
>
> Unfortunately it is a knee jerk reaction by the wonderful press and some
> readers feel they must get dragged into the discussion. It really isn‘t
army
> ‘stuff‘ either. It made a 30 second clip on out National news and prompted
> some malcontents to start scribblin rhetoric for their editors. It will go
> on for a bit then die a natural death when some housewife in a PMQ gets
> peaved with the cabinet arrangement and pays Col flag to get her some
access
> to information to share with a foolhardy journalist. In about a year
> somebody will learn the cause of the crash and most Canadians will say ...
> ‘Isn‘t a snowbird a person who spends the winter in da states?‘
>
> After the salem witch-hunt here and a few posts about why we need a queen
in
> order to have loyalty to our country, I guess talking about the Air Force
> serves as some relief.
>
> arte et marte
>
> anderson sends:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 23:40:11 -0400*
MINUTES APART!!
Thats the Andy I know!
And I agree!
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "The MacFarlanes‘" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> Well, I have about a hundred different threads of debate going on in my
> pea-brain, including what John touched on, perks, necessity vs "nice" How
> did we manage Vimy with no Gore-Tex? etc etc. I will try to stick to the
> crux if the debate "Snowbirds or not". The first question that leaps to
mind
> yes, I know that I am an idealist  "Why does it have to be either or??"
> Once again, or still, the silent majority is letting the politicos tell us
> what we can have, or not. They must know what is best, because no one else
> speaks up. Well, except maybe the media - har har. I know ! Let‘s have a
> properly tasked and equipped Armed Forces.. AND... maintain their proud
> traditions..! OK, so the realist sets in, and says, in today‘s society we
> need social programs, and those are the people who control the vote, and
> yada yada yada.. that‘s not going to happen. Back to the question - I
think,
> especially for the older folks, this type of debate generates a visceral
> reaction because it is only a symptom, and we won‘t cure the disease. It‘s
> one more tradition one more source of pride one more thing to be taken,
> and never given back. Another nick, in the death of a thousand cuts. The
> fatalist in me says - screw it. They are dismantling our Armed Services.
> Even if we had a plausible mission, we probably couldn‘t carry it out.The
> public isn‘t interested the people interested aren‘t loud or active
enough.
> Let‘s scrap the window dressing, rely on our neighbours, let the
Politicians
> bear the embarrassment for awhile, and put a little extra in everyone‘s
tax
> return next year. Then I think of the people - the men and women I‘ve
seen,
> read about, and served with - I know our pride won‘t let us do it that way
> either. Darn this stuff gets me worked up......
> Ubique
> MacF
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Sun, 24 Jun 2001 21:55:51 -0600*
on 6/24/01 21:37, John Gow at jgow@home.com wrote:
> And when Jane the PMQ dweller gets riled enough to bitch at Col Flague, she
> also gets hit with a blinding tax bill, does she not? Why should not these
> scum sucking idiots pay their rightful share?  Like that got deducted from
> the pay a zillion years ago, and anyone that tried to live in them
> understands that they are worse than the "projects"  But oh well...
I missed the point there John. Who is sucking the scum and who is the
idiot?.
My inference to the Col ‘Flag‘ was aimed at a guy in Ottawa and it is an
inside joke best left as an inference. *giggle*
arte et marte
anderson sends:
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"John Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:32:22 -0400*
Colonel Flague was a *MASH* character boyfriend  of Margaret Hoolihan I
could tell ya, but then I‘d  have to kill ya
On the other point, I resent the Stornaway thing, the MP salary/pension
stuff....the scumsuckers are seldom persons in the service-an cannot quite
grasp where the nation‘s budget is not in "overflow" mode, that there is an
immense surplus...so we are not in the "hurt" mode....
Hope that I‘m not the idiot...tho‘ that is too often the case...
----- Original Message -----
From: "William J  Anderson" 
To: "army@cipherlogic.on.ca" 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> on 6/24/01 21:37, John Gow at jgow@home.com wrote:
>
> > And when Jane the PMQ dweller gets riled enough to bitch at Col Flague,
she
> > also gets hit with a blinding tax bill, does she not? Why should not
these
> > scum sucking idiots pay their rightful share?  Like that got deducted
from
> > the pay a zillion years ago, and anyone that tried to live in them
> > understands that they are worse than the "projects"  But oh well...
>
>
>
> I missed the point there John. Who is sucking the scum and who is the
> idiot?.
>
> My inference to the Col ‘Flag‘ was aimed at a guy in Ottawa and it is an
> inside joke best left as an inference. *giggle*
>
> arte et marte
>
> anderson sends:
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:12:58 -0700*
Very interesting points you raise John,,,,,,,
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Gow" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 7:10 PM
Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> Just to pour a little more gas on this fire...
>
> I wasn‘t referring to the crash/collision episode, though undoubtably the
> newspaper writer was, because "it" was not conditioned to thinking about
> working in the CF environment where mistakes may get you killed, or
hurt...
>
> Aside from the Snowbirds, frankly I don‘t see a lot of recruiting tools...
>
> Neither am I a historian, nor an officer, but "unneccessary" risk?  How
> about "acceptable" risks?
>
> Nor do I believe the CF is presently equipped, supplied, or staffed to
fight
> a war and is only marginally able to meet its peacekeeping commitments,
and
> there for not much longer...
>
> I will pound on the point one more time that fliers must be allowed to
> fly...because I‘d hate to see the mistakes in an expensive F18, if they
> could be had in a Tudor instead...much cheaper to lose an obsolescent
> trainer, isn‘t it?and likely uses less gas
>
> And, forgive me, but Mr Martin is showing a considerable surplus...even
more
> than he predicts,,,so we are not hurting, we are in the window of
> opportunity to correct past parsimony step in and correct me if the media
> reporting this is lying!
>
> So is boils down to "Does the taxpayer want their service personnel to be
> equipped for safe execution of the mission that the taxpayer/voter gives
> them?"  Or do they chose the death/disability benefit payout instead?  And
> how does this attract good men and women into the Service? Or are we just
> simply carried away with the godallmighty dollar in "tax cuts"?
>
> I realize when you pose a question to the List that good manners compel
you
> to take the responses as they come, but the response from Jason was such
> that I had to respond, and I apologize for the "bad manners" shown in so
> doing...
>
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jason King" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 8:13 PM
> Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
>
>
> > I have had this arguement before the crash.
> >
> > I agree with you and all others who say the SB‘s are a valuable
recruiting
> > tool and tradition. However, when it comes to recruiting tools and
> > traditions, they are second place to ensuring our forces can do their
jobs
> > without any unessicary risk. The job of any military force to to train
for
> > and fight wars. We have to be able to do that first and foremost, before
> all
> > else. And with our current fiscal situation I doubt whether we can do
that
> > or not.
> >
> > I love having the Snowbirds. But I don‘t think we can afford them right
> now.
> > Don‘t blame me, I‘m not the one who put the CF in this mess. Either the
> > gov‘t puts more cash forward or we have to cut more.
> >
> >
> > >From: Jean-Francois Menicucci 
> > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> > >Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 19:04:01 -0400
> > >
> > >ok, tell me guys. If that Snowbird did his flight perfectly, and did a
> > >landing
> > >instead of crashing,
> > >does that argument about them would even exist?
> > >
> > >They are a question of recruiting, access to community, presence but
also
> a
> > >question of traditions.
> > >a presence that the CF should continue to do, because in a certain way,
> > >other
> > >Armed Forces have
> > >these types of activities. In a certain way its is a mean of visibilty,
> > >nationaly and internationaly.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Jason King wrote:
> > >
> > > > Teams like the Snowbirds are great. But with the current situation
our
> > > > military is in, we really can‘t afford them. In an age where our
> > >servicemen
> > > > and women are put in danger because of old equipment and when our
> total
> > >Reg.
> > > > Force composition has falled below 60,000, can we afford them? Ture,
> > >they
> > > > are a good recruiting tool, but before we think recruiting flash, we
> > >must
> > > > first think of giving the people currently in our forces the ability
> to
> > >do
> > > > their jobs. Quality equipment and training, as well as adequate pay
> can
> > >be
> > > > very good recruiting tools also.
> > > >
> > > > I would love to keep the Snowbirds, but to do so I think we need to
> > >expand
> > > > the CF budget drastically and get the rest of our house in order. We
> can
> > >no
> > > > longer pretend that we can afford luxuries like this.
> > > >
> > > > >From: Gunner 
> > > > >Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > > >To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > > >Subject: Re: The Snowbirds
> > > > >Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 16:42:03 -0600
> > > > >
> > > > >We need Bands, Strathcona Mounted Troop, Snowbirds, SkyHawks, etc
in
> > > > >order to take the military to communities that do not have a base
or
> > > > >unit close by.  If you don‘t let the taxpayers see what they are
> paying
> > > > >for they are going to be indifferent to paying for it.
> > > > >
> > > > >How much are we willing to pay though?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> > >http://www.hotmail.com.
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > >remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > >message body.
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:04:06 -0700*
If we are going to make a point of cutting "luxery"items, we should really
clean house....
Lets start at sodom on the Rideau......carve away at some of the General
Officers and thier staffs
Lets face it, less than 60,00 members do not need 67 generals to operate.
How many UN missions do we have now?.......
I think out Navy has more Admirals than it does operational ships...whats
wrong with this picture?
There are lots of public relations units out there, how about the Gov.
Generals FootGuards.
Do we really want to sacrifice what little good PR we get
All the Snowbirds are Pilots, getting valuable flight time.
The Foot Guards are trained Reservists
The Skyhawks are jump qualified Forces members on a diversion posting...they
can still do thier job after.
Thats all I‘m familiar with....But they are all in a temp spot and will go
back to thier original jobs.
Where else would they go?...Staff billets on some obscure projectCombat Bra
and matching panties?
Enough cuts, give them back some real funding, give them achievable goals
and let them succeed.
We ask so much of them, lets back them up where it counts, in the respect
and honour they deserve
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:52:48 -0300*
well said, Dave!!!
Bob  Beth
dave wrote:
> If we are going to make a point of cutting "luxery"items, we should really
> clean house....
> Lets start at sodom on the Rideau......carve away at some of the General
> Officers and thier staffs
> Lets face it, less than 60,00 members do not need 67 generals to operate.
> How many UN missions do we have now?.......
> I think out Navy has more Admirals than it does operational ships...whats
> wrong with this picture?
>
> There are lots of public relations units out there, how about the Gov.
> Generals FootGuards.
> Do we really want to sacrifice what little good PR we get
> All the Snowbirds are Pilots, getting valuable flight time.
> The Foot Guards are trained Reservists
> The Skyhawks are jump qualified Forces members on a diversion posting...they
> can still do thier job after.
> Thats all I‘m familiar with....But they are all in a temp spot and will go
> back to thier original jobs.
> Where else would they go?...Staff billets on some obscure projectCombat Bra
> and matching panties?
>
> Enough cuts, give them back some real funding, give them achievable goals
> and let them succeed.
> We ask so much of them, lets back them up where it counts, in the respect
> and honour they deserve
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Eric Cozens <ericoz@sympatico.ca>* on *Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:04:31 -0400*
--------------669C999299286D0439CEB874
G‘Day all !
Well said Dave!
It‘s easy to ‘nit-pick‘ at the effect but oh for a Government and
politicians with the guts to identify and work at getting to the cause
and FIXING it.
‘nuf for now,
        Eric,  Arte et Marte
--------------669C999299286D0439CEB874
G‘Day all !
Well said Dave!
It‘s easy to ‘nit-pick‘ at the
effect but oh for a Government and politicians with the guts to identify
and work at getting to the cause and FIXING it.
‘nuf for now,
Eric, Arte et Marte
--------------669C999299286D0439CEB874--
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:10:29 -0600*
on 6/25/01 18:04,  dave at dave.newcombe@home.com wrote:
> If we are going to make a point of cutting "luxery"items, we should really
> clean house....
> Lets start at sodom on the Rideau..
Nice rant Dave, but there are a few holes
I‘m sure that if you do your homework, nobody has suffered more cuts than
the fat cats at Fort Fumbles on the Rideau. Each day there are more empty
desks and work is being let out to contracted services. Granted they needed
a bit of trimming‘ down but I believe they are getting their share
‘downsizing‘
The grass is always greener on the other side from where we sit, and it is
easy to sling mud at the top. I guess my question would be ... which
General‘s position could we cut. Perhaps a few full bulls could also be
machetteed. Then we hack away at the Chiefs and Sergeants Major. Sooner or
later all that would be left is 14 guys in the riding troop and a few
students in the guards with blisters from doing public duties on ‘the hill‘.
The staff at ‘Clothe the Soldier‘ working hard to ensure our soldiers can
get a replacement bra while in-theatre, probably don‘t think they are in an
obscure billet. It is just another item of kit that is needed and has to
have a spec written for it. Has anyone thought of just how many different
sizes of boobs there are in the army.  
Actually, there are more happy soldiers in this lean army that we have today
than there were in the bloated one of the late ‘60s early ‘70s. Of course
there are whiners, as there always will be, but the majority are hard
working professionals full of pride and tenacity. If you ask them about
‘kit‘ the common answer is that it really not all that bad. Everyone of us
has a wish list when we were serving and I think that will always be part of
soldiering.
There are new problems that we didn‘t have back in the bloated army, such as
Post Traumatic Stress, Rotos back to back, and having to have a high tech
brain to work most of the gear. Access to information and a press corps **** 
bent on a political agenda to make anything look bad for journalistic
sensationalism is also new. These are just growing pains that other armies
have dealt with in stride and I bet we do as well.
I don‘t like throwing rocks, mostly because my aim is not that good. I also
think it is pointless and counterproductive to bemoan everything that is in
authority. I trained with lots of other armies and they all had the highest
respect for Canadian soldiers. A Canadian soldier can go anywhere with his
kit and hold his head up high amongst foreign peers.
What really irks me is that he can‘t hold his head high at home in front of
journalists and civvies. If the guy behind you treads on your heel enough
times your putty will unravel. :
arte et marte
anderson sends:
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------

