# Borden vs St. Jean



## Dog (7 Dec 2005)

Okay, I'm curious, does it matter where you do your BMQ?

I was talking to a guy I know who is in the reserves, and he said that it's better to do your BMQ in St. Jean because it's a better base, and it's got better instructors, guys at battalion will respect your St jean experience more.... blahblahblah. Is this true? I think it's likely he's full of it, but what do I know?

Personally, I can't really see how it would be a big deal, after all, it's just BMQ (not implying that it will be easy, so take a deep breath and keep reading). You really prove yourself in you SQ and MOC, right?

If there are differences, what are they?


----------



## chrisf (7 Dec 2005)

You don't prove yourself in any of the courses, you prove yourself at your unit.

Bad soldiers come out of St. Jean, good soldiers come out of St. Jean. Bad soldiers come out of Borden, good soldiers come out of Borden.  Bad soldiers come out of a weekend militia course, good soldiers come out of a weekend militia course.

Don't bother judging anyone by what courses they've done in the past or where they've done those courses, judge them by how they soldier now.


----------



## NavComm (7 Dec 2005)

Personally I've never heard that one is better than the other. I had excellent instructors at Borden, one of the guys from my unit (navres) just came back from St. Jean and upon comparing notes, we basically agreed both were identical courses taught by very qualified instructors. He said St. Jean is just an awesome base, but then I guess Borden is too. I was pretty impressed with the indoor field and all the facilities we had at Borden.

IMO some people just like comparisons for the sake of comparisons, if you were going to St. Jean instead of Borden (or vice-versa) someone will sh*t all over that too. So just nod, agree and walk away


----------



## Dog (9 Dec 2005)

I understand that proving yourself a worthy soldier is always an ongoing process, and that simply passing a course doesn't mean you have the everlasting respect of everyone you are going to work with, that's not what I meant. The aforementioned friend of mine is someone who might disagree with you, he has a lousy work ethic, and believes that what he did 3 years ago means he's somehow got the slack to sit back and rest on his laurels. I think he's got a lousy work ethic. But that's not what this post was about....

Thanks for the response, guys.


----------



## Thaedes (11 Dec 2005)

Doesn't matter where your BMQ - everything that you learn there is merely to prepare you for future courses.  Very little of what you learn there will have any bearing on your MOC courses.  If you're going combat arms, expect that once you reach wherever you'll be doing your SQ that your instructors will say something along these lines - " Take everything you learned at that St. Jean place and throw it away. (etc etc).  "

As for the caliber of instructors, well again thats an individual thing.  Course content is managed by Standards, so you'll see little difference in the content in either of the places.

As for bragging that you went through BMQ at once place as opposed to another, thats plain out ridiculous.  No one will care in your unit.  If you go infantry for instance, even your Battle School is looked as a joke in unit to those who've been around awhile.  It's what you do when *you get* to your unit that counts, don't let anyone fool you otherwise.


----------



## JSR OP (21 Dec 2005)

I've seen pers come from Cornwallis, St Jean, Borden, Petawawa, Ottawa, Both Reg and Reserve.  doesn't much matter.  I've seen good and bad soldiers, sailors and Airmen com from all of them.


----------



## Gouki (25 Dec 2005)

I suppose I'll have to stick my head out for someone to plink off and say this:

From what I and my friends on our threes (and other people on their 3's/5's I've talked to personally) seen, can't say I have been really impressed with what I saw the recruits doing in Borden. Seen them way too many times in civvies walking (not marching) around, heading to Canex, the movies etc. The weekend I can understand but the weeknight.. which seemed to be almost every weeknight, we saw lots of them walking around. In uniform, same thing, half (that I saw, again, mind you) never marched, and many talked and moved around way too much while formed up. At Pizza Hut, while we were waiting for our order to come through, we seen some chatting it up with one of their instructors and laughing and what not on a way too casual and friendly basis. 

We couldn't help but think that, this would never be tolerated in St. Jean for a minute, and many of the aforementioned people I know who are, at heart, good people, actually developed sort of a resentful attitude towards the recruits for not having to go through the same crap they did.

I think the biggest thing that irked my course personally and a few MP's I knew, was that there were recruits in the H Club walking around thinking they're big shots and more than a few had some attitudes, even with a few MCpl's which I couldn't believe they were getting away with.

I thought I'd toss this out there, because I was one of the people who was a bit put off by how things appeared. Plus, someone had to balance out the topic with a different view.


----------



## NL_engineer (26 Dec 2005)

Steve said:
			
		

> I suppose I'll have to stick my head out for someone to plink off and say this:
> 
> From what I and my friends on our threes (and other people on their 3's/5's I've talked to personally) seen, can't say I have been really impressed with what I saw the recruits doing in Borden. Seen them way too many times in civvies walking (not marching) around, heading to Canex, the movies etc. The weekend I can understand but the weeknight.. which seemed to be almost every weeknight, we saw lots of them walking around. In uniform, same thing, half (that I saw, again, mind you) never marched, and many talked and moved around way too much while formed up. At Pizza Hut, while we were waiting for our order to come through, we seen some chatting it up with one of their instructors and laughing and what not on a way too casual and friendly basis.
> 
> ...



I'll start by saying this: Different instruction methods yield different results.

The two main instruction methods used are the "NEW" way (less yelling, more like a school) and the "OLD" (Full Metal Jacket style). For both there are pros and cons; for example the army is moving towards the helping/defending the population then waiting for the Russian tank charge. When you are dealing with locals, let me rephrase that, if you were a local how would you want to see the foreran army in your land; as helpers or occupiers?

If you were a training officer for a factory and a school you would have to train both in different ways. Back to the army, the OLD way is more like training people to work in a factory; this is because we were waiting for the “Charge of the Light Brigade”, the civy equivalent to “The Round Pin goes in the Round Whole”. With the NEW way each soldier has to think on there feet and act in a way respectful to the local population; civy side you are going to train teachers to think and ask questions, you would not want that in a factory.

Now for training methods; yelling, screaming, imposable standards, etc. can lead to the occupier’s aptitude (my conclusion) The pros are a more disciplined and respectful army, but all the thinking is going on at the higher levels. In my opinion this is not what you need when you are dealing with locals; “Kicking in the Door” of a house witch intel said the terrorist ring leader lives, only to find a woman and small children. The New relaxed approach does not give you the same disciplined soldier as the old one but it will give you one that learns yes learns (unlike the old way); back to civy side: If a employee thinks there opinion/voice is herd they will be happier and as a result work harder. With the situation always changing the lower levels have to be able to think for them self and adapt to the changing situation without having to wait for the senior officers to decide how to react (the people on the ground know what is happening, and training will tell them how to react). This should eliminate the Black Hawk Down scenario were the different groups are held up in buildings getting over run. Also the relaxed training method can improve a soldiers “People Skills” in effect, the “I am Better then You” altitude is not there; and the soldiers are better able to relate and help, then occupy. 


That’s my 2 cents worth, but what do I know I am only a reserve Cpl, who is studding 
Human Resources.


----------



## Gouki (26 Dec 2005)

I fully see and understand what you're saying, however the entirety of what I witnessed just struck me as wrong somehow


----------



## Hoover (26 Dec 2005)

Yes, while on BMQ the instructors put a leash on you and you strain it as much as possible! Every platoon in Borden did it and we all suffered for it!

Recruits in the H club? We were only allowed in the O club, and not even all of us were allowed in there!


----------



## delta24 (29 Dec 2005)

THe difference between Borden and SJ, the training environment for one thing, in SJ you're pretty much surrounded by francophones and quebequios whereas at Borden mainly english speaking recruits. This plays a rather huge and overwhelming role on the emotional side of training, imagine feeling completely alienated, away from home and all that you have grown up to know and feel. The lonliness and the seemingly short regret of getting into somethng you know nothing about. I know youth who have spent their entire youth in cadats and they take off all gun ho to BMQ thinking cadets... cadets... its just going to be like cadets but... uhoh!! Next thing you know they're all alone in a place where they know nothing of and the first thing they think of is "what the..." I've heard that in Borden it is a lot tougher mentally because of the crappy Ontario weather and the grey feeling of depression one gets from being there for so long. To make a long story short, training on any base is always different from the other bases you may go in your BE with the military and it is like this for any military entity. So don't listen to any one who tells you "this base is tougher then that one," because they're all equally tough to complete BMQ at but they have their own cheracteristics that make them that way.


----------



## Gouki (29 Dec 2005)

Hoover said:
			
		

> Yes, while on BMQ the instructors put a leash on you and you strain it as much as possible! Every platoon in Borden did it and we all suffered for it!
> 
> Recruits in the H club? We were only allowed in the O club, and not even all of us were allowed in there!



They were in the H club. It was Thursday night and unless it was that crack I smoked earlier, I heard a large group of them bragging about the field and whatever else they did to some girls, being regulars there, weren't impressed. The fact that no one has ever seen their faces before, they all had near shaved heads etc just made it more obvious...ignoring that they admitted the fact that is.

I dunno how much the restriction to the O Club was enforced but obviously not enough.

Borden tougher mentally? I think 90% of the people on training there who went through St. Jean would argue that. As for the weather ... actually, this year it was relatively nice, it didn't start getting cold until the 1st of December, and there were quite a few warm and sunny days in there. Then again, I'm from Manitoba so what do I know about nice weather


----------



## NL_engineer (31 Dec 2005)

delta24 said:
			
		

> I know youth who have spent their entire youth in cadets and they take off all gun ho to BMQ thinking cadets... cadets... its just going to be like cadets but... uhoh!! Next thing you know they're all alone in a place where they know nothing of and the first thing they think of is "what the..." I've heard that in Borden it is a lot tougher mentally because of the crappy Ontario weather and the grey feeling of depression one gets from being there for so long.



I'm not reg-force so I can't comment on the course differences; but on my BMQ (res. old supperman course in Gagetown) the first 2 people to quit were ex cadets. 

As I said in my last post on this thread, the army is changing. The old "Full Metal Jacket" style of training does not get numbers in the real world. When I look back at my QL3 it doesn't compear to the Sect. Member course today (large change in under 4 years). I will also go as far as to say that the BMQ in Borden and St. Jean, has changed from what most of you guys have done to more relaxed course.

just my two cents


----------



## canadianblue (31 Dec 2005)

I found my course to be tough, however I don't think its the location of the course as much as the instructors which determine how hard a course is. On my 13 week BMQ we had most infantry sergeants and master corporals teaching the course, which I believe may have made it a little bit tougher. I've heard of some courses were the instructors more or less babied the course, but once again that is only what I have heard while I was at St Jean. I talked to a former member of my platoon that was recoursed due to an injury, and in his new NCM platoon they lived in much nicer bunks in the blue sector, as well the instructors were easier with them then the instructors on my course. I personally think it comes down to what instructors you have. 

My own 0.02 cents.


----------



## janedoe (5 Apr 2006)

Well i did try to search function before anyone jumps me  and found nothing. What is the differance between basic in St Jean and Borden. Everyone I know has gone to St. Jean and it seems everyone goes there but me  . They are sending me to Borden. So what is the differance really?


----------



## 9nr Domestic (5 Apr 2006)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37200.0.html


----------



## aesop081 (5 Apr 2006)

janedoe said:
			
		

> Well i did try to search function before anyone jumps me  and found nothing. What is the differance between basic in St Jean and Borden. Everyone I know has gone to St. Jean and it seems everyone goes there but me  . They are sending me to Borden. So what is the differance really?



St-jean is in Quebec.....Borden is in Ontario  ;D

Basic is basic........good luck


----------



## Wookilar (5 Apr 2006)

Poison Ivy. Lots of it in Borden. This is no joke either. When you do anything in the training area, have a look around. If you don't know what it looks like, ask. I didn't and I really wish I had. Having your arms and chest covered in blisters for a few weeks was not a lot of fun. And yes, I had a shirt on. Pepper potting to take an objective, then lying there to hold it. I picked a real nice spot for me and my C-6. Gig dummy that I was.
Also, not too many stairs in Borden. Depending on which shacks they have you in, the most you will have is 4 flights (and they are short ones at that). 
You will still do the same course, same schedule, same pt, same classes, same type of instructors. Just different scenery. Don't be too disappointed.

Wasaga Beach is excellent when you get a day off (eventually).


----------



## janedoe (5 Apr 2006)

Thank You. I honestly did do a search grrrrrrr Well from reading that guess there is no differance except the language which in that case thank god I got Borden.


----------



## janedoe (5 Apr 2006)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> St-jean is in Quebec.....Borden is in Ontario  ;D
> 
> Basic is basic........good luck



LOL Way to sum it up. Thanks for the chuckle.


----------



## grayman (5 Apr 2006)

Jane doe, there's french in Borden too, I know there has been francaphone courses run there as well.  BMQ is BMQ, the onlt real difference is St Jean has been doing Reg force BMQ's a lot longer than Borden and they have a little better set up and better support, but all BMQ curriculum is the same throughout.


----------



## ManWithThePlan (17 Jun 2006)

Borden BMQ is very unorganized.  Our course didn't even get dog tags or permanent ID cards.

Hope to get sent to St. Jean... it might be harder but at least they know what they are doing.

Cheers


----------



## grayman (19 Jun 2006)

I will have you know its not that the instructors dont know what we are doing, its the fact that for years it has been strictly Naval Reserve Training Division at the moment it is going through a transitional phase with CFLRS det Borden getting its digs in too, we are going thru some growing pains as any new unit does.  Having said that there are still some dinosaurs that are having difficulty giving up the way it was for the way in needs to and should become.


----------



## FNG (22 Jun 2006)

St. jean and Borden will both seem like a joke walk once you start sq in Meaford.  :threat:


----------



## grayman (6 Jul 2006)

Alright my turn....In regards to one place being better than an other, lets see....All material taught in Borden and St Jean same thing regulated by a Standards cell.
Recruits in the H club in Borden is strictly VERBOTEN as well as bleachers, O club only.
As for recruits strolling around base and not marching if and when given time off they cant be kept an eye on 24 hours a day, and lets be honest when you went through any little way to "stick it to the staff" so to speak you did as well.  Now just an opinon but I believe troops get away without marching in Borden more than ST Jean could have something to do with the sheer size and volume of recruits in St Jean, also being the Primary recruit school in Canada might have something to do with it, there is definatly more staff in St Jean.  Borden is also spread out all over hells half acre and it is hard to see all troops at once.
As for Staff and instruction it is all dependent on the Staff themselves, some are "HARDER" than others, probably something to do with trade, its been my conclusion the combat arms have a different style of instruction than lets say an Airforce Tech trade, not neccassarily better or worse just different.

As an instructor here in Borden I can tell you that my section got away with nothing, and I had incredibly high standards  I expected of them and though some thought thet were getting C**K, in the long run it paid off for them, and will continue to pay off in the future, If you dont believe me just ask them !


----------



## Jinpa (23 Jul 2006)

Grayman is right...

Borden is merely having some growing pains, but when I was in Borden sitting in good' ol PRETC I saw some Borden BMQ grads...
and ... well... Uhh... I don't know what to say.  In Borden, BMQ recruits are put 4 to a room, as opposed to St. Jean, where you're all
stuffed in one giant figure 8, with 30 recruits per loop, etc etc... this makes teamwork much easier.  For instance, when course senior says "were not wearing webbing today" he can just yell it at the top of his lungs and it's done, now imagine 4 per room, trying to the same message across, believe me it's nowhere near as easy.

To further the argument, St Jean holds your weekends for ransom, "if you disappoint me, you'll lose your weekend" the Sgt will say.  Whereas alot of Borden recruits get weekends off as early as the 2nd week.  In St Jean if you fall out of a run, you go to the MIR, no questions, if you go to the MIR, you miss class, if you miss too many classes, you get re-coursed.  Borden as far as I know right now, has no such policy.  I met a female recruit (i'll withold names) that was 250 lbs and never finished one run, NOT ONE RUN....didn't finish her BFT, couldn't shine her own boots, failed her first two attempts at first aid, but by some miracle was given a 2nd re-test and passed.  She even gloated that if she had done BMQ in St Jean she wouldn't have made it to week 2....  this made me glad I did mine in St Jean

These are the things you won't find in St Jean.  I may be wrong and please don't tread all over my opinion.... Borden seems much more interested in a nice FAT course pass ratio.  Again I may be wrong, but what from i've seen and heard from many a Borden recruit, I don't believe i'm too far off.  I'm sure Borden has gotten better as most of the tales i've been told were told to me from the pilot course that was run in the fall of 2005.

Basically, if you just wanna pass BMQ go to Borden... if you want it done right, go to St Jean.  Now go nuts picking my post apart.

Cheers
Jinpa


----------



## NavComm (23 Jul 2006)

Jinpa said:
			
		

> To further the argument, St Jean holds your weekends for ransom, "if you disappoint me, you'll lose your weekend" the Sgt will say.  Whereas alot of Borden recruits get weekends off as early as the 2nd week.  In St Jean if you fall out of a run, you go to the MIR, no questions, if you go to the MIR, you miss class, if you miss too many classes, you get re-coursed.  *Borden as far as I know right now, has no such policy.*



The CF *policies* are the same in Borden and St. Jean. Our course didn't get unearned weekends off although we had a few MIR commandos, I'm sure they exist in St. Jean also. IMO it's the application and interpretation of standards that you are really talking about.



			
				Jinpa said:
			
		

> I may be wrong and *please don't tread all over my opinion*....  *Now go nuts picking my post apart*.
> 
> Cheers
> Jinpa



It's tempting, but I really don't think you're too far off the mark. IMO it's not the difference between Borden and St. Jean so much as it is the recruits themselves that dictates what the instructors focus on.

I have the advantage (or some might say disadvantage) of being re-coursed. I had the pleasure of doing 6 weeks of the summer (reserve) 8 week course and then the 11 week winter course (mostly RegForce). Both were in Borden. The differences were night and day. The 11 week course, taught by RegForce instructors, was totally different even though it was the exact same course for the most part. The differences had more to do with the focus of the staff, what they were trying to accomplish, and who they had to work with.

The summer staff was completely competent and professional but they were training mostly teenage reservists. They spent more time instructing them on how to act like adults (do up your button, don't spit, wake up, stop doing handstands on the chief's grass, stop crying) than they did on teaching them how to be soldiers, sailors and airmen.

The winter course was full of mostly adult (a very few teenagers) who were going reg force infantry and combat arms. A whole different mindset, both in the students and in the instructors.

So I'm guessing you were talking to mostly reservists who had gone through Borden thinking it was a breeze and reg force people who had gone through St. Jean being prepared for fulltime life in the military.

Just my .02

edited to add "unearned" to weekends off, didn't mean to say we never got weekends off in either course...both were always earned...some had to be earned by the platoon, others depended on the individual.


----------



## Bo (26 Jul 2006)

St.Jean is near Montreal  ;D


----------



## steve29 (26 Jul 2006)

I am teaching SQ now. What the general consensus is around my office is, the troops coming out of St Jean are a lot more professional and hardworking. Their weapons drills are way better then that of Borden ( I think the weapons cadre in St Jean is all infantry)which could explain the better drills. I just finished a course that came from St Jean and had no problems. The course I am on now we are on week 4 and there are 12 soldiers from Borden in my section. They have 17 Initial and final warnings 15 red chits, 3 charges, and 1 rtu, out of the 12 of them.

This is just my 2 cents.


----------



## 735_winnipeg (26 Jul 2006)

just curious but does borden have an internet cafe or something?  the reason i'm asking is that i pay my bills online and its a hassle if i miss a payment.  i leave for borden on 18 aug to wait for a space to open in kingston, what does PAT platoon do anyways?


----------



## George Wallace (26 Jul 2006)

As has been recommended to so many before you:

Go to your Banking Institution or the company to which you owe "Bills" and arrange for "Pre-Authorized Payments".


----------



## exgunnertdo (26 Jul 2006)

The Base library here in Borden has free internet, but only a couple of computers.  Open till 8 pm Tues to Friday, Saturday, noon till 4.  Not sure about internet cafes.  But, it would be easier to do as been recommended, set up pre-authorized payments whenever possible.

Can't comment on what your life will be like as a PAT here, however.


----------



## canadianblue (26 Jul 2006)

The computers at JR's cafe are usually broken down, of the five computers they had there on average I think only one or two would be working. If you want to use a computer go into Angus and use the public library.



> i leave for borden on 18 aug to wait for a space to open in kingston, what does PAT platoon do anyways?



Nothing, I was on PRETC for about two and a half months and that was the most unproductive time of my life. Really all that happens if you get marched over to T-83, sit around, go for lunch at 11:00, go back to T-83 at around 1:30, gaggle around, then go back to the shacks at around 3:30. Sometimes you can go workout, and they might have the odd activity that you can do, but none of it will get you any qualifications. PRETC is apparently overflowing right now, so the situation has probably gotten worse. We also did a field ex in PRETC, it was just a joke, its basically the field version of PRETC.


----------



## steve29 (26 Jul 2006)

I am teaching SQ now. What the general consensus is around my office is, the troops coming out of St Jean are a lot more professional and hardworking. Their weapons drills are way better then that of Borden ( I think the weapons cadre in St Jean is all infantry)which could explain the better drills. I just finished a course that came from St Jean and had no problems. The course I am on now we are on week 4 and there are 12 soldiers from Borden in my section. They have 17 Initial and final warnings 15 red chits, 3 charges, and 1 rtu, out of the 12 of them.

This is just my 2 cents.


----------



## steve29 (26 Jul 2006)

WProhphet said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter where your BMQ - everything that you learn there is merely to prepare you for future courses.  Very little of what you learn there will have any bearing on your MOC courses.  If you're going combat arms, expect that once you reach wherever you'll be doing your SQ that your instructors will say something along these lines - " Take everything you learned at that St. Jean place and throw it away. (etc etc).  "
> 
> As for the caliber of instructors, well again that's an individual thing.  Course content is managed by Standards, so you'll see little difference in the content in either of the places.
> 
> As for bragging that you went through BMQ at once place as opposed to another, that's plain out ridiculous.  No one will care in your unit.  If you go infantry for instance, even your Battle School is looked as a joke in unit to those who've been around awhile.  It's what you do when *you get* to your unit that counts, don't let anyone fool you otherwise.



I'll have you know battleschhol is no joke. Unless it has turned a complete 180 in the last 10 years. As a section commander in 2RCR I do care about my troops that have passed battleschool and how well they have done. With the kind of tempo we keep, I make sure I read this persons files and background because I may not get a chance to work with them for months at a time. And this will help me deciding what taskings to put them on, courses etc. EG if person shows up just around course loading time, depending what is written about him is what course I will slate him for.


oh yeah back on topic Borden St Jean


----------



## canadianblue (26 Jul 2006)

> I am teaching SQ now. What the general consensus is around my office is, the troops coming out of St Jean are a lot more professional and hardworking. Their weapons drills are way better then that of Borden ( I think the weapons cadre in St Jean is all infantry)which could explain the better drills. I just finished a course that came from St Jean and had no problems. The course I am on now we are on week 4 and there are 12 soldiers from Borden in my section. They have 17 Initial and final warnings 15 red chits, 3 charges, and 1 rtu, out of the 12 of them.
> 
> This is just my 2 cents.



When I went through St Jean it was mostly combat arms with few Sig Ops and a Boatswain. One thing I've noticed is that quite a few of the recruits that attended Borden have said they never really felt pride by being able to complete that course, for me that tells me something is wrong. I know that in my course the vast majority of recruits were full of pride for being able to complete it, and being able to wear the uniform.


----------



## NavComm (26 Jul 2006)

Well I guess you're all correct then. Borden sucks. Maybe I should file a grievance stating that I didn't get the best training available? Any mistakes I make in the future will undoubtedly be the fault of my poor training at Borden. I'll request to be put through the St. Jean course so that I can be as good at basic recruit skills as those lucky bastards that got to go to St. Jean. I've been robbed!


----------



## HiredGoon10 (26 Jul 2006)

My BMQ at Borden starts September 4th and I'm really looking forward to it. I could care less whether St. Jean is more strict than Borden, or vice versa. From what I gather the course elements are the same, what may differ is the way they are taught. Basically what I'm trying to get at is you get out what you put into it. If some recruits are going to walk around with their head up their rectum and basically refuse to learn than that's their decision. Personally I'm going to get as much out of it as I can and hopefully those that think I got short-changed on my training will recognize that.


----------



## steve29 (26 Jul 2006)

NavComm said:
			
		

> Well I guess you're all correct then. Borden sucks. Maybe I should file a grievance stating that I didn't get the best training available? Any mistakes I make in the future will undoubtedly be the fault of my poor training at Borden. I'll request to be put through the St. Jean course so that I can be as good at basic recruit skills as those lucky bastards that got to go to St. Jean. I've been robbed!



Guess you didn't like me being honest. I know I'm new on this board. But buddy wanted to know if there was a difference. So I pointed it out what noticible differences I have personally seen. Now myself instead of acting like a 2 year old, would concentrate on making myself the best soldier I could be. But that is just me, you can blame the whole world if you want to.


----------



## steve29 (26 Jul 2006)

HiredGoon10 said:
			
		

> My BMQ at Borden starts September 4th and I'm really looking forward to it. I could care less whether St. Jean is more strict than Borden, or vice versa. From what I gather the course elements are the same, what may differ is the way they are taught. Basically what I'm trying to get at is you get out what you put into it. If some recruits are going to walk around with their head up their rectum and basically refuse to learn than that's their decision. Personally I'm going to get as much out of it as I can and hopefully those that think I got short-changed on my training will recognize that.



This is a good attitude to have. Good luck with your training. I'll see you in Gagetown if you come here for your SQ


----------



## NavComm (26 Jul 2006)

steve29 said:
			
		

> Guess you didn't like me being honest. I know I'm new on this board. But buddy wanted to know if there was a difference. So I pointed it out what noticible differences I have personally seen. Now myself instead of acting like a 2 year old, would concentrate on making myself the best soldier I could be. But that is just me, you can blame the whole world if you want to.



I suppose I should have put the little winky face at the end of my remarks. I do believe I had good training and I don't believe I'm inferior to anyone trained in St. Jean. I also believe that no matter where a person does their training it's what that individual puts into it that counts. I put everything I had into my basic and every job I've done in the navy since.

If you have noticed people coming out of Borden are not as well trained as those from St. Jean, then I guess there are some instructors in Borden that should be taking notice. Personally, I don't want to blame it on the instructors and if you had read my previous posts, you would see that IMO if there are such huge differences, then it's probably more to do with the troops than the instructors.

We had a few thuds on our course, sure. I worked with a few thuds in Esquimalt too. Are they thuds because they did basic training in Borden? I don't think so. I think they are just thuds and it wouldn't matter where they were trained, they just put minimal effort into everything they did.

My platoon commander was RCR and the 2 I/C PPCLI and IMO they were highly motivated and skilled. There are standards set that the instructors have to live with. Some people, no matter how good their instructors are, are always going to shoot for mediocrity. Unfortunately, the standards allow for mediocre people to make it to SQL and NETP and on to trades training. Maybe that's where we should be looking for changes.

just my .02


----------



## grayman (26 Jul 2006)

To all those interested, slagging the instructional staff in Borden is a weak BS thing to do.  I'll have you know that I as an instructor in Borden do not slack off or lower my standards for anyone.  Once a Patricia always a Patricia.  Where the problem stems from in my opinion is even though we fall under CFLRS in St Jean our direct chain of command is the Naval Reserve Training Division, who by no fault of their own are'nt exactly the most "army" bunch around.  As it is now everything we instructors need or have to have we beg, borrow or steal, call in favours, you name it, we are charged with instructing new recruits and have little to no support.  When we army types try to instill new things to the training, ways we have tried and tested in units, battleschools etc, 99% of the time we are shot down or told "we dont do it like that in Borden" or the ever famous "we will just Bordenize it to fit our needs".
There are to many dinosaurs in prominent positions of authority that are just there till they die, or they post in, newly retired from the reg force, next day new contract with the reserves, until ......whenever.
NRTD is also constantly cramming naval traditions down everyones throats, I'm all for traditions but when your in a combined evvironment like a recruit school it should be CF traditions not element specific, or at least an equal smattering of army and air traditions as well.
If ST Jean came down here and saw how this place is run they would have a coronary, problem is they have been once for a couple of hours and then gone, if the want a good cross-section of the goings on around here they need to spend more time with the instructors, not the higher ups, see what little we have to work with.
So in retrospect if you think you are frustrated as a student you should be in the instructors shoes, its a totally different headache.

Oh Yeah, as for weapons cadre...................what's that ?  We scrammble on every course to find instructors competant and capable of instructing weapons drills.  Usually what happens is they employ some naval reservists from parts unknown to instruct weapons for the alloted time and then POOF their gone.

So to sum up we try, its getting better we are slowly getting more instructors, more training aids, but the frustration is never ending.
Its my opinion that all recruit schools should be run by infantry or at least cbt arms, thats just me, I'm sure i"ve stepped on some toes during my two cents worth, but now you know, from someone who is here.


----------



## steve29 (26 Jul 2006)

grayman said:
			
		

> To all those interested, slagging the instructional staff in Borden is a weak BS thing to do.  I'll have you know that I as an instructor in Borden do not slack off or lower my standards for anyone.  Once a Patricia always a Patricia.  Where the problem stems from in my opinion is even though we fall under CFLRS in St Jean our direct chain of command is the Naval Reserve Training Division, who by no fault of their own aren't exactly the most "army" bunch around.  As it is now everything we instructors need or have to have we beg, borrow or steal, call in favours, you name it, we are charged with instructing new recruits and have little to no support.  When we army types try to instill new things to the training, ways we have tried and tested in units, battleschools etc, 99% of the time we are shot down or told "we dont do it like that in Borden" or the ever famous "we will just Bordenize it to fit our needs".
> There are to many dinosaurs in prominent positions of authority that are just there till they die, or they post in, newly retired from the reg force, next day new contract with the reserves, until ......whenever.
> NRTD is also constantly cramming naval traditions down everyones throats, I'm all for traditions but when your in a combined environment like a recruit school it should be CF traditions not element specific, or at least an equal smattering of army and air traditions as well.
> If ST Jean came down here and saw how this place is run they would have a coronary, problem is they have been once for a couple of hours and then gone, if the want a good cross-section of the goings on around here they need to spend more time with the instructors, not the higher ups, see what little we have to work with.
> ...




I agree with you 100%, and not that it makes any difference, but we do know about the headaches you guys go through. Keep up the hard work fellas, I know it is frustrating


----------



## NavComm (26 Jul 2006)

grayman said:
			
		

> Its my opinion that all recruit schools should be run by infantry or at least cbt arms, thats just me, I'm sure i"ve stepped on some toes during my two cents worth, but now you know, from someone who is here.



+1 the infantry instructors were viewed by the platoon as more effective in every way.


----------



## medic269 (26 Jul 2006)

This thread had disaster written all over it...


----------



## grayman (26 Jul 2006)

I'm back, just one more thing if the CF wants us to produce the same quality recruit as ST Jean, then someone needs to spend some money, lots of money in our direction, and towards other recruit schools throughout Canada.  All recruit schools regardless of location should have exactly the same funding, support, equip, pers, training etc.
As with everything in the military there should be one standard, one standard only, and possibly all schools run by an outside agency within the military, for example a CF recruit standards cell or school, much like the INF, ART, ARMD, ENG schools in Gagetown, they are the end all and be all of everything pertaining to their specific trade.  At the INF school regardless of unit all are trained to the same CF infantry Corps standard.  I"m sure there is a CF recruit standard cell or school somewhere but it needs to be more pro active and start dropping the hammer and investigate why there is a difference between recruits out of St Jean and Borden, like some state there is.
Maybe we should go the way of the Brit army and each unit is responsible for their own training of their troops from day one.  Realistacally it would probably never happen because we are not big enough military , but just food for thought.
CHEERS!


----------



## steve29 (26 Jul 2006)

grayman said:
			
		

> Alright my turn....In regards to one place being better than an other, lets see....All material taught in Borden and St Jean same thing regulated by a Standards cell.




Sorry but as for this. No. Troops are showing up from Borden with 6 or 7 troops on the course who have set up an artic tent. I know it is summer time but still part of the SQ package is winter warfare. All the troops that show up from st. jean have already done this. When this happens we teach it as a review. For the Borden guys we start from scratch.  Still confuses me why 6 or 7 of them have done it? Don't get me wrong, I do teach it and enjoy it because it is one of the fun things to watch. I had a group of SQ students who I timed the first time they set up a tent and it was over an hour lol Now I have never had another group like them again from ST jean or Borden.

My point here is, the same things are not being taught. I don't know if it is part of the BMQ package or just something extra the guys from ST jean throw in because of the extra resources.

Oh and for buddies comment on infantry should teach everything. I do not agree with that, however weapons and fieldcraft I do.

A little bit of UFI also at LFAATC where I work now, when an infantry PLQ is ran it is only ran by infantry instructors, no other trades. When any other PLQ is ran it is any trade as instructor. I don't mean anything by this just some UFI.


----------



## grayman (26 Jul 2006)

As for certain things being taught or not, that lies totally on the instructional staff itself, I've been teaching for a while here and I know for a fact, we, teach arctic tent within our Platoon, because I'm one of the only people that has ever set one up, and I always teach it.  Certain instructional staff decide certain things are not as important as others, and as a result decide not to teach them, or teach it as quickly as possible and carry on, BS I know, but thats the miserable truth.  I also find some pers are more interested and take their job more seriously than others, this place needs a serious "flushing", some are here punching a clock.  I take it more serious I think only because I know where the troops are going, and I dont want dead weight "polluting" the units.  You've all heard "Who the hell was your instructor in basic?, cause he did'nt have a clue"  I wont let myself be that guy.
So please dont paint us all with the same brush some of us are bustin our ass.
CHEERS!


----------



## HiredGoon10 (27 Jul 2006)

grayman said:
			
		

> As for certain things being taught or not, that lies totally on the instructional staff itself, I've been teaching for a while here and I know for a fact, we, teach arctic tent within our Platoon, because I'm one of the only people that has ever set one up, and I always teach it.  Certain instructional staff decide certain things are not as important as others, and as a result decide not to teach them, or teach it as quickly as possible and carry on, BS I know, but thats the miserable truth.  I also find some pers are more interested and take their job more seriously than others, this place needs a serious "flushing", some are here punching a clock.  I take it more serious I think only because I know where the troops are going, and I dont want dead weight "polluting" the units.  You've all heard "Who the hell was your instructor in basic?, cause he did'nt have a clue"  I wont let myself be that guy.
> So please dont paint us all with the same brush some of us are bustin our ***.
> CHEERS!



Hopefully the majority of my BMQ instructors at Borden will have a similar attitude towards their teaching as you do. Personally I believe students (recruits in this case) absorb more material, more easily, when the instructors know what they're teaching and want to be teaching it. At least I do anyway.


----------



## Infanteer (8 Aug 2006)

Interesting discussion.

I'm of the opinion that:

A)  Basic training should be environment specific and split between Army, Navy and Air Force.

B)  The CTC should administer Army basic training.

C)  St Jean is a ridiculous facility for a basic training camp.  CFLRS should be moved to somewhere that can offer a better training environment than apartments, a basement, and a small detached training area.

Just thought I'd throw some gas onto the fire.... 

Cheers,
Infanteer


----------



## MORGUE (12 Aug 2006)

Steve said:
			
		

> I suppose I'll have to stick my head out for someone to plink off and say this:
> 
> From what I and my friends on our threes (and other people on their 3's/5's I've talked to personally) seen, can't say I have been really impressed with what I saw the recruits doing in Borden. Seen them way too many times in civvies walking (not marching) around, heading to Canex, the movies etc. The weekend I can understand but the weeknight.. which seemed to be almost every weeknight, we saw lots of them walking around. In uniform, same thing, half (that I saw, again, mind you) never marched, and many talked and moved around way too much while formed up. At Pizza Hut, while we were waiting for our order to come through, we seen some chatting it up with one of their instructors and laughing and what not on a way too casual and friendly basis.
> 
> ...


I did my BMQ in borden (0262) graduated in June this year.  I can tell you we werent allowed out at all during the weeknights, so the pers you seen strolling around were likely not recruits.  My BMQ was taught by well qualified instructors which I learned a great deal from.  Keep in mind that in the summer there are RES BMQ courses running, and they seem to get away with a bit more, shocking eh....

MORGUE


----------



## janedoe (14 Aug 2006)

I just have one piece of advice. Borden is unorganized. Not the instructers fault though. Many of them have said they do not get the tools that you get in St.Jean and that yes they have to practically give their first born child to get stuff for their troops. However they are doing their best. My one piece of advice though. Every instructer walking around wants things done a different way. Learn who everyone is and remember how they want things done. Hard at first but makes life easy after. Not necessarily your platoon but all instructors walking around because they watch ALL recruits. Also never lean on things even on a Sunday. A friend of mine was leaning on the fence in the smoking section on a Sunday and got busted by an instructor who was in civvies. Can anyone say push-ups? Oh and NEVER NEVER NEVER call a master seaman a master corporal. Them navy people are 100% proud to be navy. Oh and never call an NCM sir. LOL! Enjoy basic.


----------



## foerestedwarrior (14 Aug 2006)

janedoe said:
			
		

> I just have one piece of advice. Borden is unorganized. Not the instructers fault though. Many of them have said they do not get the tools that you get in St.Jean and that yes they have to practically give their first born child to get stuff for their troops. However they are doing their best. My one piece of advice though. Every instructer walking around wants things done a different way. Learn who everyone is and remember how they want things done. Hard at first but makes life easy after. Not necessarily your platoon but all instructors walking around because they watch ALL recruits. Also never lean on things even on a Sunday. A friend of mine was leaning on the fence in the smoking section on a Sunday and got busted by an instructor who was in civvies. Can anyone say push-ups? Oh and NEVER NEVER NEVER call a master seaman a master corporal. Them navy people are 100% proud to be navy. Oh and never call an NCM sir. LOL! Enjoy basic.



Are or were you an instructor in Borden? I have no troubles getting anything here(Borden) at supply. If you are nice to the storesmen(women) working there, they are nice back.


----------



## 735_winnipeg (15 Aug 2006)

I'm currently in Borden at the moment, waiting for Reg F Sig Op 3s in Nov, and I'm placed with Alpha Company of PRETC.  It's a mixed of franco and anglo-phones and I can tell you it's a big bag of crap.  The whole company disintegrates into chaos when there's no staff especially the francophones, I got nothing against Quebecers except the whole trying to leave the country thing but when no staff is around they start doing their own things regardless of what was ordered to them.  From my point of view, they've been here too long or think that the anglophone staff are a joke to them.  That's just my 2 cents.


----------



## mml (3 May 2007)

Hey all,

When I called  the recruiting center here the other day and advised them I was interested in  going   into the ROTP and taking my nursing at a  CF civilian University. He said during the summer months I would go to St Jean,Quebec  to learn more french and not Borden.....But I remember someone on the forms saying it was Borden that they went to ...What is the difference is the two places? How do they  choose where or which one you go to and why/ what is the criteria?


Thanks,

Melanie


----------



## Biggoals2bdone (3 May 2007)

Well 735_winnipeg:
I was told i made a racist comment on a post the other day for no reason...and no one is saying anything about your post...well im going to...if this board wont tolerate "racism" against anglos, then i think it shouldn't tolerate it against franco's either.

And for your information, not everyone who speaks french is from Quebec, there are french speaking people in Manitoba, Ontario, the Maritimes, all over...so before you just start bad mouthing french people and just saying well they are just dumb Quebecers who don't give 2 sh!ts about there anglo instructors...stop and think...A LOT.

Contrary to popular belief not all french people are bad and think of english people as scum...might be hard to believe but its true

i think your comment should be deleted.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (3 May 2007)

[a] That was from last August.
[b} He didn't insult all Franco's, just the ones he was with.........I wasn't there, were you?



			
				Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Contrary to popular belief not all french people are bad and think of english people as scum...might be hard to believe but its true



"Contrary to popular belief"???............gee thanks for that earth-shattering news, I will be sure to pass that on to my French wife and kids.

My patience wears a little thinner........


----------



## Armynewsguy (3 May 2007)

Well since the thread has been reopened anyway;

Here are links to print and video stories that we have done on PRETC and also on the NAVRES teaching recruits in Borden.

print story   pretc    http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=1666
video story  pretc    http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=1809

video story recruit trg Borden  http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1_1.asp?id=1746
print story  recruit trg Borden  http://www.armee.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=1657

Armynewsguy


----------



## SweetNavyJustice (3 May 2007)

To actually answer MML's question....

My SEM (Subsidized Education Manager) in Borden told me that they are looking at moving ALL officer basic training to Borden in the near future.  

In military terms "near future" could mean as early as Sept to never.  

For what it's worth, whether you do your training in St. Jean (which is where I did mine), or at Borden won't make a differene.  The standard and tasks will still be the same.


----------



## Dog (18 May 2007)

Okay, well seeing as I'm now qualified to have an opinion I'm gonna chime in;
(I started this thread aeons ago, it seems) I noticed one major difference between the recruits from St. Jean, and the recruits from Borden when I got to Meaford. Our towels were different colour, our ID cards were different (Borden got Temporary cards, while St.Jean got the real deal), and Borden recruits didn't have any other issued identifiers (dogtags, nametags...) while the St. Jean recruits did. Other than that, there was no difference.

 There you go, the major differences, and they weren't really major, at all.


----------



## Rugby11 (2 Apr 2008)

To Reply to what Jinpa had to say earlier in the form about the pilot course in 2005, i was in the first platoon on that pilot started September 26th 2005 , and during the 2nd week of course i got injured, and since we we're the first, they didnt have like a PAT or anykind of PAR platoon set up yet, and i didnt know what my options could have been, so after being on course a few more days not being able to attend drill or PT or any sort of activity, I ended up VR'ing not knowing my options like PAT platoon that i know is now established in Borden.

I VR'd not knowing what i know now, and i thought i might get released from the Army due to injry. So I just quit. Then 2 two years later i re-inlisted, and was sent to St. Jean , and soon as i got there, i noticed a major diference. I ended up having to leave before my course started with a Family Incident coming up right after i left which kind of was unfortunate for myself.

But with regards to the training and the instructors, my instructors in Borden did kind of establish a kind relationship with the recruits but on the other they chewed us out whenever we screwed up or made a mistake they would take it out on us like any instructor would.   But when i got to St. Jean the 2nd you walked through them doors to the Green Desk, they we're all over you like white on rice, and when you first start marching, they know you dont know anything about it, they chew you out non-stop just cause they can...Borden instructors did when needed, and i know getting yelled at and all that Jazz is part of BMQ, but i found St. Jean instructors did it when they wanted just cause they could. 

I never made it far enough in either course to say anything about the training from either CFLRS Det. But I would say without a doubt, Fort St. Jean is a tougher place to do your BMQ, but Borden as Jinpa said is only just getting started 3 years in, St. Jean has been around since 1969, they got it down pat. so we'll just have to see how borden can inprove in the next couple of years.

And thats my 0.02  if its worth anything.


----------



## geo (2 Apr 2008)

Rugby, 
You hit the nail on the head... Borden was just getting it's act together, it's personnel were not prepared to deal with raw recruits and without some set rules and SOPs, things might have appeared more personal .  Being a new organisation it was also small - so they could tailor things to the recruit's needs.

the MEGA at St Jean (NOT Fort St Jean - a very different establishment) can deal with something like 32 Platoons at any one given time.  Very different...

You will find that Borden is probably a lot more like St jean by now - routine and structure will do that.

Ummm... You bailes a second time?

WTF - Why would you do something like that?
Compassionate leave exists - being recoursed is possible.
Bailing out?    Cheez!


----------



## Rugby11 (2 Apr 2008)

Geo
I know, the bail the 2nd time was a bad choice....but currently i am in the process of getting back in, getting my head on straight....i was unsure of my future, now i know what i want. and i will succed when i go back...i have a goal of proposing to my GF at my graduation and giving us a life. no bull anymore...
Rugby.


----------



## RTaylor (2 Apr 2008)

Yeah Rugby, make sure you got your act together this time, I heard that 3 strikes and you're out (from a friend who has done that).

Maybe we'll be in the same BMQ if you get in...and if it's in either Borden or St Jean it doesn't matter as long as I reach the goal of getting my trade. I've done Basic before so I have a small idea of what's done


----------



## Rugby11 (2 Apr 2008)

Ya i know....thanks for the support RTaylor....so what part of the application process are you in now? and what CFRC Det are you at?


----------



## RTaylor (2 Apr 2008)

Im done everything at Halifax. I was in the reserves over 5yrs ago so Im still waiting for my med docs to arrive before they can send it all off for me to get my offer.

Taken almost a year so far


----------



## Rugby11 (2 Apr 2008)

yah......same with me, waiting for my Med Docs from ottawa, took them like 4 - 5 months, the 1st time , cause i was out for 2 years....5 years out wow....might take em awhile...hopefully they get them in soon for you.


----------



## RTaylor (2 Apr 2008)

They told me after 6 weeks they put out some RUSH on them and label it uber important. Keep that in mind Rugby, and keep on them about getting your VFS (Verification of Former Service) prior to anything. If they don't get that then they can't order your medical.


----------



## Rugby11 (2 Apr 2008)

yah, thats a good idea...but i didnt seem to have any problems before....and i was out for 2 years, this time i was only out for 7 months....so we'll see what happens, if i dont hear anything by the end of April , then ill call and see whats going on with it, bug them for the infamous updates.


----------



## CallOfDuty (6 Apr 2008)

I did my basic in St. Jean, and now I'm in Borden doing training.  One big thing that I notice with the BMQ'ers here, is that they never seem to be in a rush.  I'm sure the St. Jeaners will agree....many many lunches were spend shoving food down your throat as fast as humanly possible, because of your next timing.  Here in Borden they come in at lunch....joke around in the lineup...grab lots of food, and go have a nice relaxing meal.  At least thats how my coursemates and I see it.
CHeers


----------



## geo (8 Apr 2008)

When you feed up to 32 platoons in St Jean, you have very little choice WRT pushing them thru the kitchen...


----------



## csrpiper (18 Nov 2013)

I was a section commander in Borden...I had a great experience there. I am one of the old school SNCO's. When I joined up I went through CFB Cornwallis. Borden basic training was as close as you could get to Cornwallis. Cornwallis was harder though as it was a different Military back then.

I have never been to St Jean but would go if I was needed. 

I think St Jeans biggest down fall is that unless your an instructor, being outside on a regular basis won't happen. Almost all training is conducted in One super plex. 

In my opinion being able to March or walk to classes or your barracks getting fresh air...outdoors is the way to go. St. Jean is like a prison...I heard it was meant to be or was a prison that was converted.

Borden in my opinion hands down is the better system....all amenities were right at our finger tips...the instructors were top notch and trained the same as St. Jean.

It was a sad day for recruits and instructors when they felt that it was no longer needed. Borden was the best! There is also another benefit that saved a bit of money....Trade training for a lot of the Trades is done in Borden....you finished your course and if you were lucky you moved to a different building on the footprint and continued your training....no flight or bus necessary!


----------



## csrpiper (18 Nov 2013)

As a former Instructor at NRTD I completely agree!


----------



## Journeyman (18 Nov 2013)

csrpiper said:
			
		

> I was a section commander in Borden...





			
				csrpiper said:
			
		

> As a former Instructor at NRTD I completely agree!



Wow.

You join the site and immediately post in a thread that's been dormant for 5 1/2 years.......and then post _again_ to agree with yourself?!

    :stars:


----------



## George Wallace (18 Nov 2013)

csrpiper said:
			
		

> ...I heard it was meant to be or was a prison that was converted.



You heard wrong.


PS.  A vast majority of Recruit School graduates DO NOT go to Borden for their Trades training.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (19 Nov 2013)

csrpiper said:
			
		

> I was a section commander in Borden...I had a great experience there. I am one of the old school SNCO's. When I joined up I went through CFB Cornwallis. Borden basic training was as close as you could get to Cornwallis. Cornwallis was harder though as it was a different Military back then.
> 
> I have never been to St Jean   but would go if I was needed.
> 
> ...



I too did Cornwallis and did a stint at CFLRS St-Jean in the bullpen.  I don't agree with most of the 'Cornwallis was harder!" stuff.  Maybe it was different but things change over decades.  Different doesn't always equal easy.

For never being in St-Jean, how can you be so sure of what it is like?   :Tin-Foil-Hat:

Morning runs, done outside.  Marching to the drill hall down by the back gate, again outside.  Forced marches, outside.  Map and compass ex, etc etc etc.  

I could argue in Cornwallis we wasted a lot of time that could be spend in trg doing the left-right-left.   

:2c:


----------

