# Official: British troops freed in jailbreak  (????)



## Lost_Warrior (20 Sep 2005)

Can anyone make sense of this story?   2 British troops dressed as militants open fire on a crowed.   British armoured vehicles jail brake them?   Am I reading this right?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/09/19/iraq.main/index.html

*BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A British armored vehicle escorted by a tank crashed into a detention center Monday in Basra and rescued two undercover troops held by police, an Iraqi Interior Ministry official told CNN.

British Defense Ministry Secretary John Reid confirmed two British military personnel were "released," but he gave no details on how they were freed.

In a statement released in London, Reid did not say why the two had been taken into custody. But the Iraqi official, who spoke to CNN on condition of anonymity, said their arrests stemmed from an incident earlier in the day.

The official said two unknown gunmen in full Arabic dress began firing on civilians in central Basra, wounding several, including a traffic police officer. There were no fatalities, the official said.

The two gunmen fled the scene but were captured and taken in for questioning, admitting they were British marines carrying out a "special security task," the official said.

British troops launched the rescue about three hours after Iraqi authorities informed British commanders the men were being held at the police department's major crime unit, the official said.

Iraqi police said members of Iraq's Mehdi Army militia engaged the British forces around the facility, burning one personnel carrier and an armored vehicle.

Video showed dozens of Iraqis surrounding British armored vehicles and tossing gasoline bombs, rocks and other debris at them.

With one vehicle engulfed in flames, a soldier opened the hatch and bailed out as rocks were thrown at him. Another photograph showed a British soldier on fire on top of a tank.

"Many of those present were clearly prepared well in advance to cause trouble, and we believe that the majority of Iraq people would deplore this violence," Reid said.

Reid said both troops were "being treated for minor injuries only and are expected to return to duty shortly."

He said British forces "remain committed to helping the Iraqi government for as long as they judge that a coalition presence is necessary to provide security.

"The situation in Basra is currently calmer after a day of disturbances. At this stage, it is not possible to be certain why these disturbances began," he said.*


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## edadian (20 Sep 2005)

Your CNN version is as confusing as the BBC version. It sounds like the SBS are confusing Basra with Belfast in the Eighties or some insurgents were spotted in the crowd.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262336.stm


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## Spr.Earl (20 Sep 2005)

Very confusing what? ???


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## TCBF (20 Sep 2005)

I say, the peasants are revolting.

Tom


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## Spr.Earl (20 Sep 2005)

Oh ghad Sir call out the Guard!! 
Yup I agree with you Tom.
It's time when they ask you to leave, you leave and no questions asked the only reason they are staying in Basrah is because it's the only port open to the sea,I was there in early 73 on a Norwegian ship unloading wheat from Keybeck and if they leave the Iranians will take over the water way from the head of the Gulf and will control the Shat al Arab and the confluences of the Tigress and Euphrates Rivers and isolate Iraq from the sea and only leave her with access from UmQasar on the border with Kuwait.

Er Sea lanes are coming into play.


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## The Bread Guy (20 Sep 2005)

A little bit of clarity:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=apPCzQOdg7t4&refer=uk

"Two British soldiers arrested by Iraqi police in Basra, and freed when troops stormed a house where they were being held, had been turned over to a Shiite Muslim militia, the U.K. military said today. 

The soldiers were detained yesterday at a police station in the southern port city before being handed over to the militia, John Lorimer, commander of the U.K.'s 12th Mechanized Brigade, said in a statement e-mailed by the Defence Ministry in London. The police jail was stormed by British troops on Lorimer's order, before it became clear the soldiers had already been moved to a house, he said. The house was then raided, he said. "

Agree with Spr. Earl:  if they give you your hat, it's time to go...


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2005)

from troops on the ground right now: the "police" in Basra and surroundings are part and parcel of the Mehdi militia. Saddam's executioner is a local instructor at the "Police Academy" near Basra. Soldiers were removed from the "Police" station and transferred to a Mehdi militia safehouse, from which they were sprung.

Local "cop" in a known enemy area was shot by highly-trained SpecOps dude - common sense leads one to believe the Operator, not the criminal with a badge, and most certainly not the media.


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## TheNomad (20 Sep 2005)

Good result.

Lets not forget what happened to the six RMP who ended up trapped in an Iraqi police station, nor what happend to the two R SIGNALS Cpls who were handed over to the IRA in Belfast.

The Iraqi police were obliged to hand the men over to the British Army, and were so ordered to by the Iraqi government.  They declined to do so.

The men were then moved from the police sation to  house, where it is thought that they were likely to be handed over to the militants.

At this point the only option left is get stuck in and get them out.

Of course I wonder how many of these so called "human rights" lawyers are going to be complaining about the British Army trashing the local police when they police fail to obey the law themselves.  I expect Blair's bitch to make yet another adverse comment.


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## tomahawk6 (20 Sep 2005)

The Brits are supposed to be vetting who is in the police just as the US has done in its area. If there is a failure in this regard its on the Brits. No question that the Mehdi Army is firmly entrenched in Basra. Sadr's Iranian handlers have redirected him from Najaf to Basra which would be a very strong position for him in any face off with the Iraqi government. The Mehdi Army does not represent the majority of the people just the minority that wants close ties with Iran.


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## Kirkhill (20 Sep 2005)

See if I have got this right:

Brits have allowed or been unable to prevent the Basra police and governorship falling into the hands of locals that are either sponsored by, sympathetic to or just looking for allies in Iran

Violence has been escalating

Brits have been killed by Iraqis dressed in police uniforms

Brits arrest a local militia leader and a couple of buddies in a car loaded with military paraphernalia
The Iraqi Governor and the militia cry foul and demand they be released

The Brits decline

Meanwhile two undercover Brits riding in a car a pulled over for speeding by local constabulary

They decline to be arrested

Shots are exchanged

They are captured anyway

Brits take a Company Team of Coldstreams in Landrovers Backed up by Warriors to secure their release

They are opposed by a rent a mob of 500 - many of them 12 year olds of the Gaza Cader Corps - slinging molotovs 

In the event a Warrior inadvertently punches a whole in the wall and 150 prisoners escape - not including the 2 troops they were looking for

Brits retire

2 troops they were looking for later recovered in a separate raid on a local safehouse.

Cock-ups and successess all round - par for the course.


On the other hand this may prompt action on the part of the Brits - it has been suggested that the Brits were going easy on the local militants to avoid upsetting Iran while the nuclear discussions were ongoing.  This has had the effect of upsetting the local citizenry who are as upset as anybody at this bunch of Revolutionary Guard clones taking over their police.

Speculation now has it that given the collapse of talks (new Iraqi President and perhaps related to Franco/German politics) and  referral of the issue to the Security Council, that Tony Blair may be willing to start clearing up in Basra.  Having said that some reports indicate that local ground commanders mounted this foray without reference to higher.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1788850,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1788849,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1788585,00.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,1,00.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/20/wirq20.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/09/20/ixnewstop.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/20/uiraq1.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/09/20/ixportaltop.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005430611,00.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005410790,00.html

As the official army report says - a small assault by 200 to 500 bodies, many of them young boys judging by pictures, in a city of 1,500,000 - does not an insurgency make.   Its gang warfare on a grand scale, with a hostile and corrupted police department.  

Locals have been asking the Brits to come the grips with this mob for over a year now.

Time may finally, hopefully, run out.


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## Britney Spears (20 Sep 2005)

Look! A Captured C8!... :crybaby: 




















> A grab from footage released on September 20, 2005 shows weapons which Iraqi police said were confiscated from two undercover British soldiers after their arrest in Basra, southern Iraq, September 19, 2005. Britain sent in troops to free the two soldiers after discovering they had been handed over by Iraqi police to local militia, the army said on Tuesday. IRAQ OUT NO SALES NO ARCHIVE REUTERS/Al-Iraqiya via Reuters television


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## tomahawk6 (20 Sep 2005)

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/taylor200508250810.asp

Article which sheds some light on the situation in southern Iraq.


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## SpruceTree (20 Sep 2005)

tomahawk6,
No offence, but that National Review article is a pretty nuanced and opinionated piece. 

I think from our perspective it's very hard to have any idea of what's going on the ground. If I were to talk to the British NCOs they'd tell one story, and the officers something else. If I were to talk to a cross-section of Basra residents I'd probably get a fair range of opinions faulting anyone from the Brits/Americans to the Sadrists or Iranians. Any guesses as to where the balance of opinion would be?  It's all about what is percieved to be true as that guides peoples' actions. 

It's easy enough to think that killing Sadr would solve the problems in the South, but this war seems to be enough of a  lesson in unintended consequences as it is. The mere fact that the IP arrested the Brits tells me that something has gone pretty pear-shaped in the relationship between the coalition and the police they are meant to be supporting/training. Time to go.


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## Kirkhill (20 Sep 2005)

> The mere fact that the IP arrested the Brits tells me that something has gone pretty pear-shaped in the relationship between the coalition and the police they are meant to be supporting/training.



Probably true.



> Time to go.



Plain wrong.

This is not a 6 month in and out game any more than Afghanistan is.  Hillier and Leslie are right there.  It is a matter of generations.  So it is in Iraq.

There are good people all over the place that just want a chance to live peacefully.  They won't get that chance any time soon if others, like ourselves and the Brits, Yanks, Aussies, Poles, Indians.....don't step in and give them a leg up.

Of course the folks that succeed in the absence of laws are going to squawk.  There are vile people out there that have got used to running their own show.  It wasn't just Saddam the southerners had to worry about, nor the Iranians.  It was also there own tribal elders that were involved in smuggling, extracting black mail, kidnapping and ransom.  That has been their way of life.   That doesn't get cleaned up over night.

The locals have to be led by example and they need to have their fears dispelled and their self-confidence boosted.  

That takes time.  And in the meantime people die.  That is the price - one way or another.


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## Slim (20 Sep 2005)

Good on the BRits for getting their guys back.

Had they failed to do so and the rank and file had to watch buddies of theirs being decapitated while wearing the ever-famous orqange jumpsuite, I predict that the morale would have dipped rather low.

It might have also caused a few more accidents "whoops, sorry mate, didn't mean to wipe your family out like that. Guess it wasn't on SAFE after all..."


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2005)

SpruceTree said:
			
		

> The mere fact that the IP arrested the Brits tells me that something has gone pretty pear-shaped in the relationship between the coalition and the police they are meant to be supporting/training. Time to go.


incorrect. The relationship between the Brits and the Iraqi "Police" in Basra has been 'iffy' at best from the get-go. The "Police" are the criminals. Same story in Afghanistan. We had to deal with it there. Still are.


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## KevinB (20 Sep 2005)

You mean the PD Mayors brother the Police Cheif / Local Warlord Opium dealer...


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> You mean the PD Mayors brother the Police Cheif / Local Warlord Opium dealer...


and their cousin, and his brother-in-law, and his... : Whole damn infra-structure is rotten to the core, all the way up. 
News to anyone who's been there?

Iraq is even worse, according to those with their boots on the ground.


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## Slim (20 Sep 2005)

Yet if you read the papers you'd think that the British govt was to blame

F*****g reporters have their heads up their asses...as usual.


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4264614.stm



> The soldiers were arrested by police and then handed over to a militia group, the British Army says.





> Iraq's interior ministry ordered the police force in Basra to release the soldiers but that order was ignored.





> In a statement, Brig Lorimer said that under Iraqi law the soldiers should have been handed over to coalition authorities, but this failed to happen despite repeated requests.





> Tensions were already high in Basra on Monday morning following the detention on Sunday of a senior figure in the Shia Mehdi Army, suspected of being behind a series of attacks on British troops



Keep in mind, the Mehdi militia had been operating in that area as de facto "police" for some time, now. About '03, as I remember being told. They would drive around the area with pictures of the Ayatollah on their vehicles, and enforce their "law". 
Very much like the Northern Alliance militias did in and around Kabul. Put on badges, break the law, then investigate. Warlords become Mayors, Police Chiefs, Generals, and Governors. Makes for interesting negotiations at times.


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2005)

And before some granola-muncher asks "How could we support these men?" or some such nonsense, let me point out, 'You do what you can with what you got." 

I would make a point of explaining the merits of Democracy and Free Enterprise thusly: The freer the economy, the higher the standard of living. The higher the standard of living, the more money people have.  The more money people have, the more you can steal. And if you do it as part of a legitimately elected government, you can do it legally. 

Positively heart-warming how fast these heartless men would suddenly develop an interest in improving the life of their fellows. Liberty and Justice for all. Mo' money for me.

Ya gotta target your audience.


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## SpruceTree (20 Sep 2005)

Kirkhill and paracowboy, thanks for your comments. 
I'd say though, that there is a point in the deteriorating situation in Iraq where the benefit of staying there is gone and the foreign troop presence creates more problems than it solves.  If the bulk of the Iraqis (or Amerians/Brits civilians at home) turn against the occupution, there isn't much point in sticking around.


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2005)

SpruceTree said:
			
		

> Kirkhill and paracowboy, thanks for your comments.
> I'd say though, that there is a point in the deteriorating situation in Iraq where the benefit of staying there is gone and the foreign troop presence creates more problems than it solves.   If the bulk of the Iraqis (or Amerians/Brits civilians at home) turn against the occupution, there isn't much point in sticking around.


if the bulk did, true. But, from the boots on the ground, the locals appreciate the Coalition Forces. Take a close look the next time the news shows a "crowd scene" reviling the "Occupiers". Take note of sex, age, and location. Compare it to demographics and geography.


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## KevinB (21 Sep 2005)

SpruceTree - head over to Lightfighter.net - a lot of the boots on the ground are reporting greatly increased public support.

 The MASS MEDIA who enjoy increased sales from pitching "their side" make minor issues into molehills -- in turn robbing the boots and the local population of support from NA and Europe.


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## paracowboy (21 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> The MASS MEDIA who enjoy increased sales from pitching "their side" make minor issues into molehills -- in turn robbing the boots and the local population of support from NA and Europe.


thus, creating their own quagmire. A self-fulfilling prophecy *does* enhance one's reputation for infallibilty doesn't it? 

Today's media is desperate to accomplish what their fellow-traveller predecessors did in Africa and South-East Asia in the '60s & '70s: bring down a presidential administration at the expense of thousands of innocent lives, and the set-back of Liberty and Free-Enterprise.


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## KevinB (21 Sep 2005)

All in the name of reporting the "news"   :

Makes me sick...


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## Kirkhill (21 Sep 2005)

Spruce Tree:

Follow the news reports - when the occupation first occurred reporters filled the screen with images of 10s of middle aged english speaking Iraqis in western clothing protesting outside the reporters hotels.  The only way to learn in English in Saddam's Iraq and be able to afford western clothes was to be a Baathist.

Over the next few months larger crowds were filmed in more areas - reports talked of 100s, 1000s, 10s of thousands of demonstrators in a large number of communities.  Violence was reported in every province.

After a while, as you followed the reports, fewer and fewer provinces were named, fewer and fewer communities were named and the numbers in each demonstration have dwindled to their hundreds again - even Moqtada had trouble getting more than 3000 demonstrators in his home area recently.

Similar numbers of Saddams family and friends turned out in Tikrit.

Now we are down to a mob of 200 to 500 including youngsters.

Curiously the screen on the television is still filled.  The headlines in the newspapers are still the same size.  The same dire vocabulary is employed.  Sandy Renaldo and Peter Mansbridge continue to announce the story in the same breathless tones.

The impression stays the same to sell soap.  The facts change constantly and in this case the facts continue to indicate that the situation in Iraq, even as reported by the media, continues to improve.

I once offered an opinion to a friend that China would become a capitalist country under a communist government because the Communist Party could never accept the loss of face that would come with a name change and thus accepting that they had been wrong.

I offer the same opinion about the media in Iraq.  If the level of violence becomes similar to that in Toronto this summer ( would that be an improvement or a regression? ) the news media will still declare Iraq to be a nasty dangerous place in which everything that is vile has been caused by those filthy capitalists.

Actually come to think of it wasn't that the line that David Miller and the GTA politicians were trotting out about Toronto in any case?


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## Kirkhill (21 Sep 2005)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1790292,00.html

More on this story from the Times.

This quote struck me.



> Abbas Hassan, another officer, said: "Four tanks invaded the area. A tank cannon struck a room where a policeman was praying."



Strangely enough I find no reason to doubt this.


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## TheNomad (21 Sep 2005)

It appears to me that some posters on here would prefer that the British did nothing.  I wonder if they would then be complaining that the British Army had abandoned their own if the soldiers had their heads removed Bigley style?

As for the policeman praying in room - so what?  Is it suggested that the British Army should wait until it is convenient for he Iraqi Police next time.

I am sure that even if no one was praying - it would still be claimed in order to some how vilify the Brits.

I think it was an excellent result, especially when you consider how many of the Iraqi Police are still alive to complain about it.


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## RecDiver (21 Sep 2005)

<out of context: on>

*Posted by: Kirkhill *


> I once offered an opinion to a friend that China would become a capitalist country under a communist government because the Communist Party could never accept the loss of face that would come with a name change and thus accepting that they had been wrong.



A valid observation. Wasn't it in the news couple of days ago that, over half of China's economy is now generated by private means? 

<out of context: off>


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## SpruceTree (21 Sep 2005)

KevinB, Kirkhill, et al,
Thanks for the links and comments!  There is broad range of information out there and I'm looking for a balance.

Nomad,
Are you insinuating that I think the British should not have rescued their own because I've asked some questions? Nowhere in my posts do I suggest the British were wrong to act. I'd be concerned if they did nothing. Given the information at hand, I think  they did what they needed to do. Let's be explicitly clear on that!  If it's me you're refering to I think you're drawing conclusions that aren't there. If not, my apologies for this wee blurb.


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## BITTER PPLCI CPL (21 Sep 2005)

2 JTF commando's are detained after being accused of shooting at Afghani police...What do you think We would do?


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## Kirkhill (21 Sep 2005)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4269672.stm  Brits in Warrior talk about the molotov attack
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4267054.stm  More on repercussions and a "Police" organized protest/riot (presumably complaining about the high price of bricks)


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## 2 Cdo (21 Sep 2005)

BITTER PPCLI CPL said:
			
		

> 2 JTF commando's are detained after being accused of shooting at Afghani police...What do you think We would do?


Knowing our government, we would hem and haw, ignore our men, and maybe after a year or so plead for their release and then pay said captors for their troubles!


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## Ex-Dragoon (21 Sep 2005)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Knowing our government, we would hem and haw, ignore our men, and maybe after a year or so plead for their release and then pay said captors for their troubles!



Not to mention grant the captors and their families refugee status when they decide to immigrate to Canada.


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## 2 Cdo (21 Sep 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Not to mention grant the captors and their families refugee status when they decide to immigrate to Canada.


Damn, I forgot about that! We must also remember to provide them with health care and the local number of the welfare office. Must not actually expect them to work here, they are still traumatized from having to torture our soldiers they held captive! :threat:


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## kilekaldar (21 Sep 2005)

UPDATE ON STORY 

Notice how the Iraqis now say the SAS guys were arrested for "At first, Basra police said the two British soldiers *shot and killed a policeman* before they were taken into custody, but on Tuesday al-Jaafari's spokesman, Haydar al-Abadi, said the men â â€ who were wearing civilian clothes â â€ were grabbed *for behaving suspiciously and collecting information*."

They'll need to get their story straight.

Anywho, we know how our government would react if a Canadian soldier was held hostage or arrested, look back at what happened in Bosnia.
It doesn't inspire confidence.



By THOMAS WAGNER, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 9 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Hundreds of Iraqi civilians and policemen, some waving pistols and AK-47s, rallied Wednesday in the southern city of Basra to denounce "British aggression" in the rescue of two British soldiers.
ADVERTISEMENT

The Basra governor threatened to end all cooperation with British forces unless Prime Minister
Tony Blair's government apologizes for the deadly clash with Iraqi police. Britain defended the raid.

In London, British Defense Secretary John Reid and Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari tried to minimize the effect of the fighting, saying it would not undermine the relationship between the two nations or their determination to lead
Iraq to peace and democracy.

But the fighting raised new concerns about the power that radical Shiite militias with close ties to
Iran have developed in the region, questions about the role of Britain's 8,500-strong force in Iraq and doubts about the timetable for handing over power to local security forces.

There has been disagreement about just what happened late Monday, when British armor crashed into a jail to free two British soldiers who had been arrested by Iraqi police.

According to the British, Shiite Muslim militiamen moved the two soldiers from the jail to a private home while British officials tried to negotiate their release with Iraqi officials. After raiding the jail, the British say they rescued the soldiers in a nearby private home in the custody of Shiite militias.

Earlier that day, a crowd attacked British troops with stones and Molotov cocktails.

Troops had tried to negotiate with the crowd in Basra "but that had no effect and it became more hostile quite quickly after that," Sgt. Eddie Pickersgill, whose face was bruised by a rock, said in television interviews in Britain on Wednesday.

Iraqi Interior Minister Bayan Jabr disputed the British account of the raid that followed. He told the British Broadcasting Corp. the two soldiers never left police custody or the jail, were not handed over to militants, and that the British army acted on a "rumor" when it stormed the jail.

But Basra's governor, Mohammed al-Waili, said the two men were indeed moved from the jail. He said they were placed in the custody of the al-Mahdi Army, the militia of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

"The two British were being kept in a house controlled by militiamen when the rescue operation took place," al-Waili said. "Police who are members of the militia group took them to a nearby house after jail authorities learned the facility was about to be stormed."

At first, Basra police said the two British soldiers shot and killed a policeman before they were taken into custody, but on Tuesday al-Jaafari's spokesman, Haydar al-Abadi, said the men â â€ who were wearing civilian clothes â â€ were grabbed for behaving suspiciously and collecting information.

Lisa Glover, a British Foreign Office spokeswoman in Baghdad, said the two soldiers "were challenged by armed men in plain clothes ... and they obviously didn't know who they were being challenged by." But "when Iraqi police asked them to stop, they did," she told The Associated Press.

She said British officials negotiated with Iraqi authorities in Basra for the release of the two soldiers with an Iraqi judge present. "When it became apparent they were no longer at the station, but had been moved elsewhere, we naturally became concerned."

Iraqi National Security Adviser Mowaffak al-Rubaie, a Shiite politician who has criticized the British raid as "a violation of Iraqi sovereignty," acknowledged that one problem coalition forces face is that insurgents have joined the ranks of security forces.

"Iraqi security forces in general, police in particular, in many parts of Iraq, I have to admit, have been penetrated by some of the insurgents, some of the terrorists as well," he said in an interview with the BBC on Tuesday night.

Officials in Basra, speaking on condition of anonymity because they feared for their lives, said at least 60 percent of the police force there is made up of Shiite militiamen from one of three groups: the Mahdi Army; the Badr Brigade, the armed wing of the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq; and Hezbollah in Iraq, a small group based in the southern marshlands.

The militias have deep historical, religious and political ties to Iran, where many Shiite political and religious figures took refuge during the rule of
Saddam Hussein.

On Wednesday, about 500 civilians and policemen held a protest in downtown Basra denouncing "British aggression."

The demonstrators, waving pistols and AK-47s, shouted "No to occupation!" and carried banners condemning "British aggression" and demanding the freed soldiers be tried in an Iraqi court as "terrorists."

Some protesters met with the Basra police chief, Gen. Hassan Sawadi, to demand a British apology, said police spokesman Col. Karim al-Zaidi. Heavily armed soldiers and police watched the protest but didn't intervene. Al-Zaidi said the demonstration was arranged spontaneously by some policemen, not by the force or its commander.

Several hours after the protest, Basra's provincial council held an emergency meeting and voted unanimously "to stop dealing with the British forces working in Basra and not to cooperate with them because of their irresponsible aggression on a government facility."

In a statement, the council demanded Britain apologize to Basra's citizens and police and provide compensation for the families of people killed or wounded in the violence. The council also said it would punish employees who had not tried to defend the Basra police station from the British military attack.

Five Iraqi civilians were killed in the fighting, including two who died of their injuries Wednesday in a hospital, and other people wounded, Iraqi authorities said.

"The British troops should stop these barbarian and illegal actions," al-Waili said in a telephone interview. "I am one of the 41 members of the provincial council, and I support boycotting the British troops and stopping all the cooperation with them until our demands are met."

Al-Jaafari and Reid, who met in London to discuss a range of issues, said the clashes in Basra would not undermine the relationship between their countries.

"At this time, where there are forces in Basra and all over Iraq, such things are expected to happen," al-Jaafari told reporters. "As for us, it will not affect the relationship between Iraq and Britain, and we hope that together we will reach ... the truth of the matter."

Reid said "there has not been a fundamental breakdown in trust between the British government and the Iraqi government," and he vowed British troops would stay in Iraq until it was stable. "We will not cut and run, and we will not leave the job half done," he said.

___

Associated Press writer Tarek El-Tablawy in Baghdad contributed to this report.


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## paracowboy (21 Sep 2005)

Militias supplant Basra police, inflict chaos
By Adrian Blomfield
LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH
Published September 21, 2005
BAGHDAD -- They wear police uniforms and drive official police vehicles, but the main priority of the rival militias that have usurped Basra's police force is not to maintain law and order.
Instead, they have turned Iraq's third-largest city into a patchwork of rival fiefdoms, where competing militias run corruption scams and kill their rivals, dumping the bodies into a garbage dump known as the Lot on the outskirts of the city.
Although British troops have earned plaudits for avoiding the sledgehammer tactics of American troops in Sunni Arab areas to the north, questions are being asked about the wisdom of Britain's "softly, softly" policy.
British officers, however, say they have little choice in the matter, insisting that troop strength has been insufficient to deal with the problem.
"Quite frankly, we have one brigade here and we've worked bloody miracles," said an officer in Basra who asked not to be identified. "We have had to let the Iraqis get on with it."
There was a sense of inevitability about the chaotic scenes in Basra on Monday, when British tanks smashed the walls of an Iraqi prison to free two undercover British soldiers seized earlier by Iraqi forces.
British officials had been keen to emphasize the relative tranquillity of the city in comparison with Baghdad and other towns to the north.
But behind the scenes is growing unease at Basra's descent into lawlessness and on the increasing influence of Iran on the city's main political factions.
Troops were ordered not to stop if challenged by police officers in case they were militiamen linked to attacks that, this month alone, have resulted in the deaths of three British soldiers and eight Americans in the Basra region.
The raid to rescue two Special Air Service commandos held by a militia that operated as part of Basra's police force has destroyed the pretense of a normal relationship with Basra's authorities.
The group holding the two soldiers blithely ignored instructions from the government in Baghdad to release them, leading many observers to ask who really controls the city.
In May, Basra's police chief, Hassan al-Sade, acknowledged that he had lost control of 75 percent of his 13,750-strong force, saying they either worked for political factions or were involved in attacks on coalition forces.
For his honesty, Basra's governor, Mohammed al-Waili -- who condemned the British raid to free the commandos as "barbaric, savage and irresponsible" -- fired him.
Since the United States handed over sovereignty to an Iraqi government in June 2004, Basra has become one of the country's most conservative Shi'ite bastions.
The city is essentially divided among three factions, although even they are riven by internal squabbles.
The Mahdi's Army of Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr, the cleric who twice last year led bloody confrontations against U.S. forces, is the smallest but is gaining ground in two of Basra's largest suburbs.
The Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), the largest party in the ruling coalition, is officially the largest faction and its Badr Brigade militia is accused of many of the assassinations.
SCIRI, however, often is outmaneuvered by the Fudala party, which fell out with Sheik al-Sadr but follows the radical strictures of his father, Mohammed Sadiq al-Sadr.
It is led by Mohammed Yaqubi, who has close ties to grand ayatollahs in the Iranian holy city of Qom. All three groups are determined to some extent to turn Iraq into an Islamic republic modeled on Iran.
"Iran has a very strong influence across Basra," said respected Iraqi member of parliament Ali al-Dabbagh. "It's not just the Sadrists. Individuals in each and every party are receiving financial backing from Iran."


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## bravo2 (21 Sep 2005)

I have to to give it to the Brits they look after their own. When they realised that they could not secure the release of their 2 soldiers through diplomatic means they they went in force and released them. It's a better outcome then the orange pyjama.


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## tomahawk6 (22 Sep 2005)

The operation to rescue their soldiers was well done. Why the incident occured in the first place is my big question.


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## Kirkhill (22 Sep 2005)

> The operation to rescue their soldiers was well done. Why the incident occured in the first place is my big question



Agreed.   This may give you a clue. This is how the politicos operate in their own backyard.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1791434,00.html

Edit: Come to think of it that's probably what you get when you hire a lawyer.

No offense whiskey


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## bravo2 (22 Sep 2005)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The operation to rescue their soldiers was well done. Why the incident occured in the first place is my big question.



You are right tomahawk6 its obviously a special operation  so you will never get the full story !!!! or maybe in a book .....


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## tomahawk6 (22 Sep 2005)

I suspect that pressure will cause details to come forth. Blair doesnt hesitate to bring squaddies up on war crimes trials with very little evidence so it wouldnt surprise me to see alot of details and maybe a sacrifice.


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## Kirkhill (22 Sep 2005)

http://billroggio.com/flashplayer.php?media=iraqops0905&w=687&h=636

This may also explain rising activity in the south.  (Mind you a few disgruntled police in a police force with tribal loyalties is not quite yet a crisis - the Badr Police hate the SCIRI Police and the just plain venial police hate them both, meanwhile the local civilians fear them all and are upset with the Brits for NOT acting against the police sooner - digression)

Anyway to the alternate explanation.  It seems that Tomahawks mates haven't been making life easy in the west recently. Al Qaeda and Syria have had a bad month.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Sep 2005)

A bit more detail, from a UK Times reporter who used to be Mil Int...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-523-1796692-523,00.html

"THE BUILD-UP TO THE CRISIS 

On Monday two SAS men in Arab clothes and an unmarked car clashed with local Iraqi police in Basra sparking a riot and political crisis. This is how they came to be there

In July three British soldiers were killed when a bomb struck their patrol vehicle at Amarah close to the Iranian border 

Forensic examination of the device revealed it was a sophisticated bomb designed to penetrate the armoured Land Rover from below. Experts identified it as similar to bombs supplied by Iran to Hezbollah, the militant Islamic group 

Intelligence from MI6 and GCHQ also revealed that Iranian Revolutionary Guards were on the ground in Basra posing as pilgrims on the way to Iraq's holy shrines and liaising with the militias 

Military commanders decided to send the SAS into Basra to track the routes along which insurgents and bombs were being smuggled in from Iran. Two dozen SAS soldiers were dispatched from "the Station House" in Baghdad to Basra 

The SAS teams conducted an overall review of the area to decide where to focus covert observation posts and close recce patrols. All SAS troopers in the field were in civilian dress, operating undercover 

Each patrol was briefed in detail. At a remote part of their base they rehearsed "actions on", the precise responses to take in any likely circumstance, including contact with civilian police. They double-checked all equipment, including communications gear and weapons 

SAS patrols both in car and on foot then began a bid to track down and trap the suspected arms smugglers 

On Monday last week, one of these two-man teams left their base by car - a battered Nissan - disguised as locals to gather intelligence and resupply another team 

The car was stopped by a police officer who was shot in leg as the SAS team tried to avoid capture 

The two SAS men sped off but were pursued by Iraqi police. After a chase in which a passerby was killed by a stray bullet, they were captured


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## bravo2 (25 Sep 2005)

Thank you for the update 
Corrupted element in Iraqi police were able to create a crisis in Basrsa. As the story goes the SAS had no choice to act like this ...


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