# What would happened if?



## Weinie (4 May 2021)

A recent post had me thinking....."What would have happened if'

Either of Adolph Hitlers" grandparents had died in a (very plausible) pandemic at that time.

Or if either of Frederick Bantings grandparents had died at an early age, before producing the progenitors of him.

We witnessed the worst and best of what humanity could accomplish. Would we be at the same level of progress had this not happened?


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## Remius (4 May 2021)

My take is that even if Hitler didn’t come about, someone else would have.  The grudges stemming from WW1 would still have existed and created the same circumstances that would have had a populist step up and ignite German nationalism one way or another.

I as for Banting, I am sure there must have been others doing similar work.

For both, it would have been a delay maybe but I think both end results would have been the same with some variations of course.


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## mariomike (4 May 2021)

Weinie said:


> ....."What would have happened if'
> 
> Either of Adolph Hitlers" grandparents had died in a (very plausible) pandemic at that time.


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## SeaKingTacco (4 May 2021)

Weinie said:


> A recent post had me thinking....."What would have happened if'
> 
> Either of Adolph Hitlers" grandparents had died in a (very plausible) pandemic at that time.
> 
> ...


If it wasn’t Hitler, it would have been somebody. And that somebody might have had a bit more strategic acumen, so the result might have been quite a bit worse.

Suppose that “Alt-Fuhrer“had not demonized the Jewish population, but just pumped German nationalism Instead? Or not fought a three front war? Would all of those scientists and physicists have fled to Britain and North America in the 1930s? What would have happened if Germany had developed the Atomic Bomb, round about 1943? Then what?

As for Banting/Best, I think insulin would have been eventually discovered.


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## mariomike (5 May 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> What would have happened if Germany had developed the Atomic Bomb, round about 1943?


Albert Speer said in a 1971 interview that the bomber offensive created "an armaments emergency in Germany which ruled out a major program to develop the atomic bomb."


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## daftandbarmy (5 May 2021)

mariomike said:


> Albert Speer said in a 1971 interview that the bomber offensive created "an armaments emergency in Germany which ruled out a major program to develop the atomic bomb."



My Dad was pretty happy with the results of the bombing campaign, even though (as part of the the 3rd Canadian Division) he was accidentally bombed by the USAF in Normandy. It was the only way for the allies to strike back against Germany prior to 1944/45:

"... When I look around to see how we can win the war I see that there is only one sure path.  We have no Continental Army which can defeat the German military power.  The blockade is broken and Hitler has Asia and probably Africa to draw from.  Should he be repulsed here or not try invasion, he will recoil eastward, and we have nothing to stop him.  But *there is one thing that will bring him back and bring him down, and that is an absolutely devastating exterminating attack by very heavy bombers from this country upon the Nazi homeland.  We must be able to overwhelm him by this means, without which I do not see a way through*." -- Prime Minister Winston Churchill, July 8, 1940, quoted in *Max Hastings, Bomber Command (NY: Dial Press, 1979), p. 116.*






						Bombing of Civilians in World War II
					

This is one of the most complete reports on the bombing of civilians in World War II.



					www.worldfuturefund.org


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## mariomike (5 May 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> My Dad was pretty happy with the results of the bombing campaign, even though (as part of the the 3rd Canadian Division) he was accidentally bombed by the USAF in Normandy. It was the only way for the allies to strike back against Germany prior to 1944/45:


After the war, General Omar Bradley ( U.S. Army ) remarked, "We went into France almost totally untrained in air-ground cooperation."

My uncle was on the Caen raid. The bombing of Caen was at the request of General Montgomery. Air Marshall Harris was willing to co-operate, But, as he repeatedly explained, his men had been trained to fly at night and each aircraft operated "individually, navigating by prescribed routes to the neighbourhood of their objective under conditions in which no details of the ground can generally be seen." Each aircraft bombed on pyrotechnical markers placed on or near the objectives by Pathfinder aircraft and if necessary corrections were made by the master bomber. It involved grave risks for the army to ask aircrew trained for such missions to locate and identify ground targets in close proximity to our own troops.

Harris wanted the army to understand that the pilot in a Lancaster had a very limited view of the ground as did the navigator, "a machine minder and plotter who spends most of his time in a cabin." The navigators job was to determine the position of the aircraft using electronic aids as well as dead reckoning. The only crew member who could actually see the ground was the air bomber who had little training and experience in the difficult art of map reading with reference to the ground rushing beneath him. If heavy bombers were to provide close support the chances of short bombing and misplaced concentrations would have to be expected.

With reference to Terry Copp, Canadian military historian.


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## Remius (5 May 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> If it wasn’t Hitler, it would have been somebody. And that somebody might have had a bit more strategic acumen, so the result might have been quite a bit worse.
> 
> Suppose that “Alt-Fuhrer“had not demonized the Jewish population, but just pumped German nationalism Instead? Or not fought a three front war? Would all of those scientists and physicists have fled to Britain and North America in the 1930s? What would have happened if Germany had developed the Atomic Bomb, round about 1943? Then what?





SeaKingTacco said:


> If it wasn’t Hitler, it would have been somebody. And that somebody might have had a bit more strategic acumen, so the result might have been quite a bit worse.
> 
> Suppose that “Alt-Fuhrer“had not demonized the Jewish population, but just pumped German nationalism Instead? Or not fought a three front war? Would all of those scientists and physicists have fled to Britain and North America in the 1930s? What would have happened if Germany had developed the Atomic Bomb, round about 1943? Then what?
> 
> As for Banting/Best, I think insulin would have been eventually discovered.


There is a great book that was made into a really good TV movie with Rutger Hauer called Fatherland.  It imagines that Germany gets the atom first and threatens to drop it on London.  Britain essentially surrenders.  The war on the western front ends but the eastern front continues for 10 years with the Russians slowly winning.


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## mariomike (5 May 2021)

Remius said:


> There is a great book that was made into a really good TV movie with Rutger Hauer called Fatherland.  It imagines that Germany gets the atom first and threatens to drop it on London.  Britain essentially surrenders.


But, the reality was, according to Albert Speer "Inside the Third Reich", the project to develop the atom bomb was scuttled in the autumn of 1942.


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## Pikache (6 May 2021)

mariomike said:


>


did nobody play Command and Conquer Red Alert?


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## Fishbone Jones (7 May 2021)

The Man in the High Castle

Germany and Japan have won and the US is divided.








						The Man in the High Castle - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## ModlrMike (7 May 2021)

A great series. Just catching up on season 4.


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## Halifax Tar (7 May 2021)

I found it really hard to get into.  Never made passed E3 I don't think.


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## Brad Sallows (7 May 2021)

The Allies went into France with good air-ground capabilities, developed during the North African campaigns.  What was rarely a particularly useful endeavour was repurposing strategic bombers as a prolonged artillery barrage.


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## CBH99 (7 May 2021)

So many fascinating possibilities in the "What If..." category of history.

What if the Norwegan resistance hadn't been as clever and dedicated as they were?  Or had failed in their efforts to eliminate heavy water production?


So many What If's...


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## brihard (7 May 2021)

Pikache said:


> did nobody play Command and Conquer Red Alert?


Dude, have you got the C&C remastered pack yet? The original C&C, as well as Red Alert, plus all the add ons for $13.50 on steam, with remastered graphics in good definition and modernized controls. It's fantastic.


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## Pikache (7 May 2021)

brihard said:


> Dude, have you got the C&C remastered pack yet? The original C&C, as well as Red Alert, plus all the add ons for $13.50 on steam, with remastered graphics in good definition and modernized controls. It's fantastic.


One of these days, I'll get around to playing this. 

But....

Kane lives!


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## dapaterson (7 May 2021)

brihard said:


> Dude, have you got the C&C remastered pack yet? The original C&C, as well as Red Alert, plus all the add ons for $13.50 on steam, with remastered graphics in good definition and modernized controls. It's fantastic.


You're saying I need to overcome my aversion to paying again for the same stuff?


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## brihard (7 May 2021)

dapaterson said:


> You're saying I need to overcome my aversion to paying again for the same stuff?


You’re paying for updated graphics and playability on a modern system. But man, it held up great. Just as playable and fun as when I first got Red Alert in the mid 90s. Up to you if you want to be a cheap bastard and miss out.


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## dapaterson (7 May 2021)

I can be simultaneously a cheap bastard, and have just logged on to Steam and started the download, just so I can torment my spouse with computer generated peons complaining about their shoes.


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## daftandbarmy (7 May 2021)

CBH99 said:


> So many fascinating possibilities in the "What If..." category of history.
> 
> What if the Norwegan resistance hadn't been as clever and dedicated as they were?  Or had failed in their efforts to eliminate heavy water production?
> 
> ...



I did a ski instructor course at Rjukan, in Telemark, in the 80s. We could see the Vermork plant from the Hardanger plateau region that was our training area.

One of the Norwegian Officers on OP GUNNERSIDE gave a talk one night, during the course, about the raid on the heavy water plant (yes, I'm that old). The guy was about as old as I am now, coincidentally 









						Norwegian heavy water sabotage - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




He was pretty clear that it was a very risky operation for something that (despite Hollywood) might not have been worth it and would kill everyone, many others had died in the attempt, but they did it anyways because they were so pissed off at the high levels of Norwegian collaboration with the German occupation force. And they believed that the heavy water was a real threat, which it wasn't as it turned out.

Norwegian resistance was pretty weak compared with other occupied countries, like France. As a result, they lived in a small hut in a remote area, eating reindeer moss to survive, because the RAF couldn't resupply them from the air, and they couldn't risk connecting with the heavily compromised civilian population who had squealed on many other commando type raid attempts. Their achievements were astonishing, and much under rated in the history of commando operations IMHO. We regarded this guy as a a frickin' God, Royal Marines Falklands War vets amongst us included.

And then there's Quisling. 'Quisling' is a a great insult if you ever need to enrage a Norwegian, but I suggest you don't try it. 









						Quisling - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## CBH99 (8 May 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I did a ski instructor course at Rjukan, in Telemark, in the 80s. We could see the Vermork plant from the Hardanger plateau region that was our training area.
> 
> One of the Norwegian Officers on OP GUNNERSIDE gave a talk one night, during the course, about the raid on the heavy water plant (yes, I'm that old). The guy was about as old as I am now, coincidentally
> 
> ...


It’s been a long time since I’ve learned so much from a single post 😊🙏🏻


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## a_majoor (24 May 2021)

If Hitler hadn't existed, WWII as we know it may not have happened, but all kinds of other strange outcomes were possible.

WWI really overturned much of the social and cultural foundations of Europe, and new "alternative" strructures were struggling to take root. Fascism was wildly popular across Europe, with many political parties and leagues rising everywhere - even Fabian Socialist H.G. Wells was induced to move a little more left and start advocating for a "Liberal Fascism". So extreme movements like that had large followings, and Germany was caught in a three way struggle between the Communist KPD, the Social Democrats and the National Socialists, so either the Nazis or the Communists win, or the Social Democrats grow a spine and fangs to fight back.

Without Hitler, Gregor Strasser would become the leader of the National Socialists, and all evidence suggests he would have been very good at it - he after all developed the ideology of National Socialism, created the Party organization and structure, grew the Party dramatically while Hitler was in prison and his work remained in force until the regime was forcefully ended in 1945. Strasser also assembled many of the notables who were high ranking Party officials, so we would still know who Goebbels and Himmler were, for example.

The huge breakpoints would be his relationship with Ernst Rohm and the SA - Rohm despised the officer and aristocratic class and wanted to replace the Army with the SA - which had almost 2 million members at it's height. A bloody civil war could have been the result - a Communist insurrection might have been sparked or fanned into acton by this and possibly Italy would ahve intervened, and Mussolini imposed some sort of order - suppressing Communists and replacing National Socialist fanatics with Fascists instead.

Mussolini would be remembered as a towering figure in European history, who saved Europe from Communism and restored order after the di9sruptions of WWI. Fascism might be seen as the proper modern political system today and a huge host of second and third order effects would be felt in Africa, Asia and the Americas due to the changes in history.

So I personally don't believe that eliminating Hitler would result in a WWII with a different  person in charge, but the chaotic conditions of the time would have led to a violent overturning of the old order and radical new changes anyway -who knows of they would have been "better" or "worse".


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## mariomike (24 May 2021)

What if Hitler had not ordered the Luftwaffe to abandon General Kammhuber's Intruder attacks against British airfields? The consequences could have been overwhelming. I read that it was the only thing that ever really worried Bomber Harris. 

Historians have described it as "the greatest missed opportunity of the bomber war, and like so many other major tactical errors, it was a personal decision of the Fuhrer."


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## CBH99 (24 May 2021)

mariomike said:


> What if Hitler had not ordered the Luftwaffe to abandon General Kammhuber's Intruder attacks against British airfields? The consequences could have been overwhelming. I read that it was the only thing that ever really worried Bomber Harris.
> 
> Historians have described it as "the greatest missed opportunity of the bomber war, and like so many other major tactical errors, it was a personal decision of the Fuhrer."


One of the most fortunate things in all of WW2 was that Hitler, by all accounts, was a horrible tactician.  Thank goodness.  🙏🏻


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## Brad Sallows (24 May 2021)

> What if Hitler had not ordered the Luftwaffe to abandon General Kammhuber's Intruder attacks against British airfields?



More German fighter pilots lost over enemy territory.


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## mariomike (24 May 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> More German fighter pilots lost over enemy territory.


More British bombers lost over friendly territory.

That is when the bombers were most vulnerable.  By 1943 the marshalling and dispatch of Harris's huge bomber force had become an exercise of the utmost complexity, calling for precision timing at every airfield in eastern England. Intruders could cause a great amount of chaos.

But, Hitler considered that only British bombers shot down over Germany were of value in convincing the German people that they were being defended.


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## Brad Sallows (24 May 2021)

"What ifs" aren't static.  The Allies wouldn't simply stand by and say "oh well" and not adopt countermeasures.  Having aircrew come down in friendly territory is a huge advantage, particularly when your side has the material advantage in a war of attrition.  Most alternate "this one thing" histories are not viable.


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## OldSolduer (24 May 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I did a ski instructor course at Rjukan, in Telemark, in the 80s. We could see the Vermork plant from the Hardanger plateau region that was our training area.
> 
> One of the Norwegian Officers on OP GUNNERSIDE gave a talk one night, during the course, about the raid on the heavy water plant (yes, I'm that old). The guy was about as old as I am now, coincidentally
> 
> ...


I think I may have read a book on this raid. And there was a movie I believe. There was also an episode on a military channel about it.

Quisling - a piece of work wasn't he? Its appropriate he was pictured with a failed chicken farmer.


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## mariomike (24 May 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Most alternate "this one thing" histories are not viable.


Sir Max Hastings is not an alternate historian.








						Max Hastings - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				






> If Kammhuber's "intuders" had been allowed to continue their operations, the consequences could have been overwhelming. But, High Wycombe's ( Harris and Bomber Command's HQ ) nightmares went unfulfilled.
> It was the greatest missed opportunity of the bomber war, and like so many other major other tactical errors, it was a personal decision of the Fuhrer.


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## daftandbarmy (24 May 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I think I may have read a book on this raid. And there was a movie I believe. There was also an episode on a military channel about it.
> 
> Quisling - a piece of work wasn't he? Its appropriate he was pictured with a failed chicken farmer.



I think this is the guy that spoke to us, way back in the 80s. Not bad work for a 2Lt 

Last hero of Telemark: The man who helped stop Hitler's A-bomb​








						Last hero of Telemark: The man who helped stop Hitler's A-bomb
					

The leader of the Norwegian team which carried out the operation to destroy Hitler's nuclear facility returns to London for a memorial.



					www.bbc.com


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## Brad Sallows (24 May 2021)

> Sir Max Hastings is not an alternate historian.



Everyone discussing alternatives is an alternate historian.


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