# From Paramedic to Infantryman



## Badner (17 Feb 2014)

Hey folks,

I'v been a BC Paramedic for the past 3 years. I am currently in the recruitment process for P-RES Infantry. I chose to go infantry over reserve medtech because I wanted a new challenge, and have always been interested in being an infantryman. I have heard varying things about trade swapping, and my question is: 

How hard is it really to change reserve units/trades? If, perhaps in a few years down the line I get tired of being reserve infantry, and want to swap to medtech, how much of a hassel is it? Yes, my city has a field ambulance unit, and yes, I am a licensed PCP-IV so the additional trade training would be minimal. 

Thank you.


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## Tibbson (17 Feb 2014)

Badner said:
			
		

> Hey folks,
> 
> I'v been a BC Paramedic for the past 3 years. I am currently in the recruitment process for P-RES Infantry. I chose to go infantry over reserve medtech because I wanted a new challenge, and have always been interested in being an infantryman. I have heard varying things about trade swapping, and my question is:
> 
> ...



A lot of it will depend upon whether or not you have a reserve med unit in your area.  Without that there isn't much chance of you being able to change over.  Also, keep in mind, as a reservist, you won't be doing much in the way of medic taskings unless you take a Class B position and even then it won't be much unless you find some place to deploy.  You'd probably see more med action in a week as a paramedic then you would in a year as a reserve medic.


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## Journeyman (17 Feb 2014)

Badner said:
			
		

> Yes, my city has a field ambulance unit....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why is_ reading_ before posting such a rare commodity here?   :not-again:


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## Tibbson (17 Feb 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Why is_ reading_ before posting such a rare commodity here?   :not-again:



Yes, I did read it and should have further qualified that it be a unit accepting members.  When I'm sitting here at 0400 hrs, in a house with a busted furnace waiting for the repair guy to show up, I'm sorry if my fingers typed faster then my mind was working.  I'll gladly send my comments to you before hand for vetting and correction.


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## Badner (17 Feb 2014)

All this said and done, the original question still stands. Does the army make it a hassle to shuffle trades? This is a generalized question. 

Perhaps an anecdote or story about people's experiences swapping trades (specifically infantry ---> med tech or visa versa) would be helpful

Thank you


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## MikeL (17 Feb 2014)

There are few threads here regarding changing trades/Occupational Transfer.

It can be done, provided the other unit is willing to accept you, and there are no issues during the process(eg PSO believes you aren't suitable for OT, etc).


Once you are in, and if/when the time comes you want to VOT to Medical Assistant, bring it up to your chain of command, and I'm sure they(or a clerk) will tell you about the process, and start the paperwork. Don't expect it to be a quick process though, as things take time, and there may be a list of others ahead of you for a interview with the Brigade PSO(who may only be Class A/part time).


As for you believing additional trades training would be minimal, are you sure about that?  Unless a PLAR writes off the Medical Assistant QL3, etc you would still have to do that.  From what I read on another thread, to be a Med Tech in the Reserves you would need to have your QL3 and QL4 in addition to PCP.


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## Badner (18 Feb 2014)

Thank you for the reply. As for the reduced training time, I would have to look up the specifics. When I was making my initial inquiries I stopped by the Infantry armoury, as well as the Field Amb HQ and spoke to both parties. I was informed at the Field Amb (and here i'm paraphrasing roughly), that there would be a streamlined process to achieve my med tech qualifications seeing as how I am already a licensed PCP. I mean, DND sends candidates to the JI to do the PCP course, then they go on for further trade specific training. I even did my practicum with some army medics back when I was a civvy student at the JI.


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## Hunter (18 Feb 2014)

I don't have any concrete statistics on how long or how difficult it is to switch trades, but I have known a fair number of reservists who have gone through an OT from/to various trades and it has always been a lengthy process with many speed bumps along the road.

Being already qualified PCP the training pipeline to become a medic would be shorter, but you would still be required to go to Borden for the field phase of med A ql3 (2 weeks) to receive your cap badge. One of the benefits of being PCP qualified though is that once you complete the med A ql4 (8 weeks) you will be qualified as a ql3 medical technician rather than a medical assistant. The advantage in this is you will be qualified to deploy as a medic, and also eligible to pursue the med tech training stream. However, one proviso to this is the ql6B course (PA course) is not currently open to reservists.


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## mariomike (18 Feb 2014)

Badner said:
			
		

> I'v been a BC Paramedic for the past 3 years. I am currently in the recruitment process for P-RES Infantry.



If you don't mind me asking, does BCAS have a Military Leave Policy?


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## MedCorps (18 Feb 2014)

Hunter said:
			
		

> I don't have any concrete statistics on how long or how difficult it is to switch trades, but I have known a fair number of reservists who have gone through an OT from/to various trades and it has always been a lengthy process with many speed bumps along the road.
> 
> Being already qualified PCP the training pipeline to become a medic would be shorter, but you would still be required to go to Borden for the field phase of med A ql3 (2 weeks) to receive your cap badge. One of the benefits of being PCP qualified though is that once you complete the med A ql4 (8 weeks) you will be qualified as a ql3 medical technician rather than a medical assistant. The advantage in this is you will be qualified to deploy as a medic, and also eligible to pursue the med tech training stream. However, one proviso to this is the ql6B course (PA course) is not currently open to reservists.



You should note also that the QL3 Med Tech course is changing sometime this Fall.  It is also expected that the RQL3 and RQL4 Med A will follow suit the summer of 2015 to keep pace with the new and improved QL3 Med Tech program.  Adding a bunch of combat medic type stuff (including a chunk of the AEC content) and standardizing civilian protocols to the CFHS protocols seems to be the theme.  The new QL3 will have four phases, Clinical I (apx 8 weeks), PCP, Clinical II (6 weeks?), and Field phase at which point you can be badged to the RCMS. 

Also the CFHS is no longer using JIBC, but rather have move English QL3 candidate's to Medavie EMS in Moncton NB.  

MC


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## Badner (18 Feb 2014)

mariomike said:
			
		

> If you don't mind me asking, does BCAS have a Military Leave Policy?



Mariomike,

This is from our BCGEU Collective Agreement for BCEHS (BCAS). NOTE: This information is non-classified, and open to the public.

"21.14
Canadian Armed Forces
(a)
Employees who participate in activities related to the Reserve Component of the Canadian Armed
Forces may be granted leave of absence as follows:
(1)
With Pay
- where an employee is required to take annual training with Her Majesty's
reserve forces provided any remuneration from the Government of Canada is remitted to the
Employer;
(2)
Without Pay
- where an employee participates in a program of training for the purpose of
qualifying for a higher rank; or
(3)
Without Pay
- where an employee, as a delegate, attends meetings of service associations
or conferences related to the Canadian Armed Forces.
(b)
Any remuneration received from the Government of
Canada for the purpose of activities related
to the Canadian Armed Forces may be retained by
the employee when on leave of absence without pay,
or where they choose to use part or all of their
annual vacation entitlement for these activities, or where
they elect to take leave of absence without pay for annual training as stipulated in (a)(1) above. "


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## Badner (18 Feb 2014)

A further question,

If one was to deploy as a reserve medtech, if it was a combat deployment would you be able to specify a preference of being attached to a dismounted infantry unit? 

Thanks


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## mariomike (18 Feb 2014)

Badner said:
			
		

> Mariomike,
> 
> This is from our BCGEU Collective Agreement for BCEHS (BCAS). NOTE: This information is non-classified, and open to the public.



Badner, that looks like a very good plan.

Thanks for sharing!


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## MedCorps (18 Feb 2014)

Badner said:
			
		

> A further question,
> 
> If one was to deploy as a reserve medtech, if it was a combat deployment would you be able to specify a preference of being attached to a dismounted infantry unit?
> 
> Thanks



Sure, you can specify anything you want, shows you are keen.  

The tasking reality will be based on the needs of the service, your skills and attributes versus those of your peers, a bit of luck, and the whims of the CSMs / RSM when they are moving people about the ORBAT in pre-deployment workups.  

We have had Res F Med Techs work as dismounted infantry medics in war zones in the past.  It certainly was not the rule however. 

MC


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## Hunter (19 Feb 2014)

Badner said:
			
		

> A further question,
> 
> If one was to deploy as a reserve medtech, if it was a combat deployment would you be able to specify a preference of being attached to a dismounted infantry unit?
> 
> Thanks



Based on my experience reserve med techs will be employed in whatever role that requires a body.  From PAD Clerk to platoon medic and everything in between.  I went as an amb driver.  I would not recommend it because being an armoured vehicle driver is like wearing a red shirt on Star Trek.  But on the other hand I also got to do some pretty cool stuff while on operations and QRF, and I got a ton of trauma experience in the UMSs in Zhari and Panjwai.  This experience has since proven quite useful in my civvie ACP course and working rotor in Ontario. If you do decide to remuster from infantry to med tech, be prepared to manage your expectations.  Don't expect to learn much and don't expect to be taught by instructors with any degree of real world experience.

Feel free to PM if you have any questions.


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## ArmyGuy99 (19 Feb 2014)

Badner,

The Canadian Forces Health Services Junior NCM's are split into two elements regardless of component:

Med Techs (PCP Qualified)  and Med Assistants (Not PCP Qualified)

Trust me there is a big difference, Med A's are, in theory, supposed to replace Med Techs in the rear area so that the Techs can be pushed fwd and deployed (especially as dismounts), as MedA's are not supposed to fwd deploy.  <--THEORY, a wonderful land where everything works.

In practice however, not much difference except for scope of practice.  For lack of a better example RN vs RPN(LPN).  In reality Health Services treats both pawns the same, especially at the Reserve Level.  Never worked with any Med A's in the REG F world  though. Only when I got tasked out to support the ResF and the Med A's were fwd deployed just like Techs.  Although with a very limited Scope of Practice.

And speaking about choosing where you go on deployments/takings. LMAO, you go where they send you, when they send you.  And don't expect to like it.  I lost count how many times I got shuffled around just on work up alone as the ORBAT kept changing.  Then again in theater when I got designated as the go to "Finger in the dyke" guy.  

I worked in Recruiting for a while, VOT's (especially in the Reserves) can be time consuming, and frustrating.  The best advice is to pick the right trade for you at the beginning.  Why not just go RegF Medic? (I can't believe I just said that).  Trust me, once a medic always a medic.  And once they figure you're a civy medic, you'll be the Coy Medic when the Medic isn't there.  Infantry are funny that way.  

Either way you'll get some great training and some wonderful experiences.  Good Luck!!

MedCorps:

in '10 all I'll say is the reserve Med Techs were very well represented as Dismounts.  And I know that the tour before/after were the same.  Lots of great knowledge now in those Res Amb units (although a good # did OT to the Light Side)


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## Journeyman (19 Feb 2014)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> Why not just go RegF Medic? (I can't believe I just said that).  Trust me, once a medic always a medic.  And once they figure you're a civy medic, you'll be the Coy Medic when the Medic isn't there.  Infantry are funny that way.


I wanted to say something similar, but it's not my field.....

However (_again_, as a non-medical outsider who has merely _appreciated_ medics   :nod:  ), in a peacetime army, I've no idea what your future holds......  :dunno:


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## Badner (19 Feb 2014)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> Why not just go RegF Medic? (I can't believe I just said that).  Trust me, once a medic always a medic.  And once they figure you're a civy medic, you'll be the Coy Medic when the Medic isn't there.  Infantry are funny that way.



Thanks for the response MedTech32,

I considered reg force, however I decided against it for a number of reasons...

I love being a paramedic, and will soon be doing my ACP. Im a bit of a freak... I love night shifts, and I love crazy, hectic days at work. I know (from reading and talking to RegForce members) that the life of a MedTech on base can be boring at times to say the least. Fact of the matter is, pay is beter as a civvy, I probably get more calls in a week to a month than I would in a year as a base medic, and I get more autonomy over my living situation as a reservist. 

That being said, I would be interested in all the additional training that the forces would provide, such as combat trauma care etc. Here on Vancouver Island we work at lot with the SAR Techs from 442 Sqn in Comox. Iv ran a bunch of calls with those guys, super professional to deal with. Back when they had direct entry for SAR Tech I was just getting into the field, and missed the boat, but perhaps in the future the opportunity to lateral in may be possible. 

Its funny, I was in talking to a recruiter at the recruiting center in Victoria, and he asked me what some of my goals and aspirations were for the forces, and I hinted at SAR Tech as a possibly, and he shot me down instantly. Basically told me I had a better chance of becoming a general than making SAR Tech (Maybe it was his belly, maybe it was the fact that he worked a desk job, but I thought I smelled a bit of a jealous "well I never made JTF2 or CSOR so youre sure as hell never gonna make SAR Tech") attitude on him. But I digress...


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## Badner (19 Feb 2014)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> Trust me, once a medic always a medic.  And once they figure you're a civy medic, you'll be the Coy Medic when the Medic isn't there.  Infantry are funny that way



About this,

I understand that all soldiers go through combat first aid (isn't it called the 5 C's, or something similar?) But in order to fulfill the duties of a Coy Medic, wouldn't I need my QL3+4, etc? What would roles and functions be? Ie, on paper you would still be a rifleman, however you would carry additional supplies (trauma kit?) ontop of your IFAK?

Thanks


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## MikeL (19 Feb 2014)

Badner said:
			
		

> About this,
> 
> I understand that all soldiers go through combat first aid (isn't it called the 5 C's, or something similar?) But in order to fulfill the duties of a Coy Medic, wouldn't I need my QL3+4, etc? What would roles and functions be? Ie, on paper you would still be a rifleman, however you would carry additional supplies (trauma kit?) ontop of your IFAK?
> 
> Thanks



During pre deployment everyone does Combat First Aid, nothing special. When I did it, it was 3 days(?), first two was the basic first aid training, last day was how to use quick clot, torniquets, casualty evacuation/drags, etc.  Selected pers will go onto Tactical Combat Casualty Care(TCCC/T Triple C), this is a much more in depth course(I believe it is 2 weeks long).  When deployed, these members are still riflemen within their section, they just carry a TCCC leg bag(yes, this would be in addition to the individuals IFAK).

TCCC qualified members do not replace the Med Tech.  They are needed though, as the medic(s) can not be everywhere at once, on every single patrol a company may send out, etc. Plus, they will augment/support the medic - such as in a mass casualty situation, etc.

Med Techs will carry much more medical kit(and have more advanced skills), than TCCC pers.


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## mariomike (19 Feb 2014)

Badner said:
			
		

> I considered reg force, however I decided against it for a number of reasons...



I am only familiar with the one service, but in the last 40+ years, I never heard of anyone from the Department ( the largest municipal service in Canada ) leaving to join the Regular Force. 

Not even our Reservists. 

I asked someone at HQ ( who would know better than I ), and he was sure it has never happened.


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## Jarnhamar (19 Feb 2014)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> Trust me, once a medic always a medic.  And once they figure you're a civy medic, you'll be the Coy Medic when the Medic isn't there.  Infantry are funny that way.



I'm sure this happens but it doesn't seem right to me.

If someone joines the reserve infantry then they should be employed as an infantry soldier.

Also in my experience medics were always under a pretty big microscope. I remember arguing over the capabilities of what our company medic was allowed to do.  The reserve medic private couldn't even give advil (at the time, not sure if it's changed). He admitted that he was basially there to put his finger in a gunshot hole or apply a field dressing.  

Would't a reserve infantry soldier doing civilian paramedic style medicine to soldiers while signed in cause some kind of bun fight?


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## ModlrMike (19 Feb 2014)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> Trust me, once a medic always a medic.  And once they figure you're a civy medic, you'll be the Coy Medic when the Medic isn't there.  Infantry are funny that way.



Trust me, as a former Med Coy CSM that nothing could be farther from the truth. 


Short version: if you want to be a Medic, join as one. If you want to be infantry, join the infantry. Don't rely on changing trades later, it's much harder than you think.


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## MedCorps (19 Feb 2014)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> Trust me there is a big difference, Med A's are, in theory, supposed to replace Med Techs in the rear area so that the Techs can be pushed fwd and deployed (especially as dismounts), as MedA's are not supposed to fwd deploy.  <--THEORY, a wonderful land where everything works.
> 
> In practice however, not much difference except for scope of practice.  For lack of a better example RN vs RPN(LPN).  In reality Health Services treats both pawns the same, especially at the Reserve Level.  Never worked with any Med A's in the REG F world  though. Only when I got tasked out to support the ResF and the Med A's were fwd deployed just like Techs.  Although with a very limited Scope of Practice.



The MedA role of being in the rear and pushing Med Tech's forward is no longer a supported concept.  This was an employment concept in the past. You will not find that doctrinally / policy anywhere and the new Med A Scope of Practice / Protocols and Procedures Manual supports this move to have Med A's working with Med Techs in the forward environment (note that I did not say, replacing). 

If you look at the new RQL4 Med A Scope of Practice it allows for much of the same combat / prehospital medicine skills as the QL3 Med Tech.  The main difference is level of care: PCP vs. Medical First Responder + Military Prehospital Skills Package.  In fact, if you take out the PCP medication skill set, when you look at the RQL4 Med A vs. QL3 Med Tech they are almost the same, less the inability of the RQL4 Med A to give narcotic analgesia (which is why Med A should work with Med Tech in the prehospital environment where pain management may be important / likely).  The new Med A Protocols and Procedures Manual which is just about to be released will re-enforce this concept.  The new RQL3 / RQL4 will come on line in summer 2015 (with any luck) and the changes to the Med A programme will be evident. 

The real difference between Med Tech / Med A comes at the QL5A Med Tech level where things are ramped up a notch in prehospital / operational medicine and most notabley in the Primary Care area of responsability.  The RQL6A course does not even come close to the Med Tech QL5A competency profile.  

MC


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## MedCorps (19 Feb 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Also in my experience medics were always under a pretty big microscope. I remember arguing over the capabilities of what our company medic was allowed to do.  The reserve medic private couldn't even give advil (at the time, not sure if it's changed). He admitted that he was basially there to put his finger in a gunshot hole or apply a field dressing.



You will be happy to know that the Res F Med A is now able to give you both Advil *AND* Tylenol if you need it    Well... once they get the new protocols trained and signed off... 

MC


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## mariomike (21 Feb 2014)

Badner said:
			
		

> I love being a paramedic, and will soon be doing my ACP. Im a bit of a freak... I love night shifts, and I love crazy, hectic days at work. I know (from reading and talking to RegForce members) that the life of a MedTech on base can be boring at times to say the least. Fact of the matter is, pay is beter as a civvy, I probably get more calls in a week to a month than I would in a year as a base medic, and I get more autonomy over my living situation as a reservist.



Interesting how each province, and each service, operates differently. In Ontario alone, we have about 60 services.

I was reading that BCAS operates "Metropolitan, Urban, Rural and Remote" stations across the province. ( The only quiet station we had was on the Islands via ferry. ) 

Would senior BCAS Paramedics be likely to bid for Remote stations for the lower Call Volumes? I would think that a change of scenery and pace would be a welcome relief for many. Personally, I found the job more 

fun when we were busy ( which was almost always   ).

I wonder if morale is highest in the urban stations? ( I say that because a number of guys who had previously worked for out-of-town services before joining Metro mentioned it. )

Can Paramedics be involuntarily redeployed around British Columbia?

I see BCAS has part-timers. We never had them. We all worked 20 twelve-hour shifts every six weeks. 

BCAS has non-emergency transfer ambulances. Non-emergency transfers in Toronto are done by private companies. 

You also mentioned SAR Techs. The only time I ever saw CF SAR was at the CNE Air Show.

Interesting that you prefer night shifts. I preferred straight days. With seniority, we can bid for an 0700-1900 weekday only shift. ( It's a 5-3-2 pattern Monday - Friday. ) This would be ideal for Reservists. ( Although with mandated overtime, you never really know what time your shift will end. )

The good thing for Paramedic - Reservists is the Military Leave Policy. We didn't have such a Policy until the late 1990's. Fortunately, I took my CAF trade training during high school. Otherwise, being a Paramedic and a 

Reservist would have been difficult. ( Due to the shift work. )

Unlike now, back then the Department gave us Reservists very little support. "This is your career, that is your hobby," was the attitude if you asked for a shift change.


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## Badner (22 Feb 2014)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Interesting how each province, and each service, operates differently. In Ontario alone, we have about 60 services.
> 
> I was reading that BCAS operates "Metropolitan, Urban, Rural and Remote" stations across the province. ( The only quiet station we had was on the Islands via ferry. )
> 
> ...






Ok in order...

BCAS is a provincial organization. We have a mixture of EMRs, PCPs, and ACPs. The entire system is run on senority. Everyone starts as a part time employee. First you do your training, then you get hired to a rural station, do on call pager shifts for a couple of years, and finally you get enough senority to bid for a station with higher call volume. Some people who live and work in rural communities do it almost as a community service, and have no desire to go full time. Pager pay starts at $2 an hour, based on a 12 hour shift. So the minimum you make in 12hrs for carrying a pager is $24, with a callout being a mimimum 4 hours pay at full wage (starting at $19 an hour for EMRs and $21 an hour for PCP-IVs). As a part timer you submit your own availability on the 15th of every month for the next month, ie. Dec 15th for January availability. You have the ability to swap shifts and trade as you please. We are transitioning to a rural care model where-by we will be employed more in the community, as well as the ER. An example of this would be bringing drugs to seniors who are mobility limited, or doing a shift in the ER in almost an LPN role. This will provide better pay opportunities for paramedics in rural areas. The great thing about being a part-timer paramedic and reservist in BC is that we get leave for annual training whilest still being paid, and accruing senority. If I have a last minute ex or training to attend, I can trade shifts or get them covered with minimal hassel. 

As far as senior paramedics bidding on rural or remote stations? There are certain gravy retirement stations that a lot of the old guys try to get into, especially mid island, which is pretty slow and easy going (ie. parksville or qualicum). Generally though everyone is trying to get Vancouver. Right now it takes about 5 years of part time senority just to get into Van as irreg (spare board). We work with the SAR Techs a lot, I ran 2 calls with them last year (and thats just me, not including everyone else at my station or the rest of the stations in the province), and 2 the year before. BC has some pretty gnarly geography, lots of rural coastline and mountains. 

Paramedics can not be invluntarily moved around the province. 

Morale highest in urban stations? I doubt it. People in urban areas are generally over worked, under paid, and just trying to get through their 4 and 4. Morale is probably highest in a station like whistler, where you can ski with your pager. Getting paid to ski? Talk about morale boost.


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## mariomike (23 Feb 2014)

What a difference!

T-EMS covers 240 square miles. It's a High-Performance service. There are about 40 stations. The Unit Hour Utilization ( UHU ) at all of them is high. 

We do not have EMRs. Most are Level 1 PCP. 

We do not do non-emergency transfers. All of our calls come via 9-1-1.

Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough is as rural as we get.

Our system is seniority driven. The "Senior Qualified Process". I don't believe the "Relative Ability Process" is used much, if at all.

We belong to a union, but do not have, and do not seek, the Right to Strike. Issues not resolved by collective bargaining, go to binding interest arbitration.

We do not employ part-timers, volunteers or auxiliary.

You are assigned a  permanent schedule, permanent station and a permanent partner. They are not subject to change, unless you wish to bid on a vacancy.

We also have Special Operations teams such as CCTU, HUSAR, ESU-MPU ( a specialized ambulance bus and truck fleet ) , ETF ( Tactical ), Community Medicine, Marine , HAZMAT, CBRN, bike, PSU, ERU and others.

As I said, nobody quit to join the Regular Force. But, I knew a few ( four? ) Reservists, including myself. Because we are all full-time, it's best to get your Reserve training while in high school ( if possible ).


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