# HMCS' Winnipeg and Fredericton award NATO medal confusion?



## navypuke (17 Dec 2010)

Okay so I would have sworn when the the Freddie did her trip they were and are eligible for the GCS medal. But I read in the news that they were awarded some NATO medal with Africa bar.  I'm confused did they get two medals for one trip or did they never get the GCS. Cause I know when they came home I saw a young AB proposing to his girlfriend in his DEU's and he had a GCS on his chest. I find it highly unlikely a AB would be to Afghanistan, and Africa and do his QL3 training in such a short time period.  Any one from the Freddie that can clarify on this.


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## Ex-Dragoon (17 Dec 2010)

So what does this have to do with the_ Winnipeg_?


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## MMSS (17 Dec 2010)

Medal for Operations in Relation to Africa
http://www.aco.nato.int/page165055716.aspx

This would be for operations off the coast as part of Operation Ocean Shield.


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## Michael OLeary (17 Dec 2010)

Service Medals Presented For NATO Counter-Piracy Missions



> NR - 10.151 - December 16, 2010
> 
> OTTAWA – Vice-Admiral Dean McFadden, Chief of the Maritime Staff, presented the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) Non-Article 5 Medal with Africa Bar to members of the ships’ companies and air detachments from HMCS Winnipeg and HMCS Fredericton for their contributions to counter-piracy missions. The honours were presented during three separate ceremonies held in Halifax, Esquimalt and today in Ottawa.
> 
> ...





> Notes to editor / news director:
> 
> The NATO Non-Article 5 Medal with Africa Bar is a circular bronze medal recognizing 30 days or more in the counter-piracy mission operational area. All personnel involved in both Operation Allied Protector and Operation Ocean Shield will be eligible. The front of the medal has the NATO Star set in a wreath of olive leaves; on the back is the title “North Atlantic Treaty Organization” and the words “In the service of peace and freedom” in English and French. The ribbon is NATO blue with two white stripes centred on the outer third of the ribbon with a silver stripe in the centre of each white stripe. The medal is issued with a bar, inscribed “Africa.”


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## MMSS (17 Dec 2010)

So I suppose to answer the question, if a hypothetical sailor was on board during both the NATO operation and a SE Asia operation then yes, they would be eligible for both medals.


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## Ex-Dragoon (17 Dec 2010)

navypuke said:
			
		

> Okay so I would have sworn when the the Freddie did her trip they were and are eligible for the GCS medal. But I read in the news that they were awarded some NATO medal with Africa bar.  I'm confused did they get two medals for one trip or did they never get the GCS. Cause I know when they came home I saw a young AB proposing to his girlfriend in his DEU's and he had a GCS on his chest. I find it highly unlikely a AB would be to Afghanistan, and Africa and do his QL3 training in such a short time period.  Any one from the Freddie that can clarify on this.



What if said AB was not always Navy?


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## trigger324 (17 Dec 2010)

well i've never sailed on the freddy, but i know the AB in question. he has never been in anything but the navy, and that was his first deployment, so he came home wearing the gcs. and now that they gave the crew the second medal he now wears both.


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## armyvern (17 Dec 2010)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> What if said AB was not always Navy?



Then it would be an even more spectacular accomplishment ...

BMQ, *2 X successful QL 3 courses * AND 2 tours (the AB stripe would go up at 30 months of service whether he was a remuster or not; it wouldn't extend his time period to accomplish 2 tours while still being an AB). LOL.

Perhaps said AB has +3 years of service ... that seems reasonable to me. I did my basic in Cornwallis, my QL3s, a Sea Enviornmental course, a BDF course and a tour in Africa all within my first 15 months in the CF and before I recd my 1st hook. That would certainly have allowed for me to complete a 2nd tour within the next 25 months and before promotion to Cpl.


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## CombatDoc (17 Dec 2010)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> What if said AB was not always Navy?


AB is always a Navy rank; whether or not they are employed in a naval task or mission is another thing.


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## Michael OLeary (17 Dec 2010)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> AB is always a Navy rank; whether or not they are employed in a naval task or mission is another thing.



You missed his point, he was asking _"What if [the AB mentioned above] was not always Navy?"_, i.e., that he had other service, perhaps in the Army.


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## CombatDoc (18 Dec 2010)

Ah, got it now! As in, he was in some other trade in the army or air force before joining the senior service!


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## Navalsnpr (18 Dec 2010)

I recently saw a few personnel from the HMCS Fredericton who were wearing the GCS medal. Shouldn't they have been awarded with the GCM instead?


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## NCRCrow (18 Dec 2010)

question answered now back to your topic

Merry Christmas to all


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## armyvern (18 Dec 2010)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> I recently saw a few personnel from the HMCS Fredericton who were wearing the GCS medal. Shouldn't they have been awarded with the GCM instead?



Remusters possibly (such as my brother on the Montreal - formerly PPCLI). Purple trades possibly. Clearance Divers possibly too as some of them have served in the sandbox.


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## Navalsnpr (18 Dec 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Remusters possibly (such as my brother on the Montreal - formerly PPCLI). Purple trades possibly. Clearance Divers possibly too as some of them have served in the sandbox.



I wish it was true... One of the guys is the same trade and I know his career as we joined and did Cornwallis together.  He has never been to Afghanistan, but was issued the GCS. I queried him about it and he said that is what the ship issued him based on his last deployment.


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## armyvern (18 Dec 2010)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> I wish it was true... One of the guys is the same trade and I know his career as we joined and did Cornwallis together.  He has never been to Afghanistan, but was issued the GCS. I queried him about it and he said that is what the ship issued him based on his last deployment.



Understood; that is quite a different situation though than just "seeing" a couple of sailors from the Freddy wearing the GCS.

Perhaps the changes to the ribbons/bars/tour numerals has caused more confusion than previously thought ... if ships were indeed presenting their sailors with the wrong recognition. Hmmmm.


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## Navalsnpr (18 Dec 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Understood; that is quite a different situation though than just "seeing" a couple of sailors from the Freddy wearing the GCS.
> 
> Perhaps the changes to the ribbons/bars/tour numerals has caused more confusion than previously thought ... if ships were indeed presenting their sailors with the wrong recognition. Hmmmm.



I'm surprised with all the checks that are done, this would happen.


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## armyvern (18 Dec 2010)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> I'm surprised with all the checks that are done, this would happen.



I'm not; it has become as convoluted as &^(* --- especially so if the medal was awarded just as the rules were changing; IIRC, they have had to issue further "clarifying" announcements since the original CANFORGEN, so perhaps some Units missed or overlooked the clarifications and thus have pers wearing non-entitled recognition. It would not surprise me in the least.  

Young AB so&so wouldn't know the difference (or others), only that "this is what they presented me with, so it must be right."


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## Navalsnpr (18 Dec 2010)

So am I correct that you need to do 30 days in Afghanistan and no where else to get the GCS? All other AoO (Mirage, Gulf region for ships) should get the GCM?


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## AmmoTech90 (18 Dec 2010)

From the Canada Gazette, criteria for GCS with SW Asia bar:



> (ii) the person served inside the theatre of operations consisting of the political boundaries of Afghanistan, the Persian Gulf, the Gulf of Oman, the Gulf of Aden, the Red Sea, the Suez Canal and those parts of the Indian Ocean and the Arabian Sea that are west of 68° east longitude and north of 5° south latitude, as well as the airspace above those areas, for at least 30 cumulative days beginning on August 1, 2009, or



So if his cruise took him through the anti-piracy area and met the criteria for that, and also 30 days in the area specified above he would get both.


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## Michael OLeary (18 Dec 2010)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> So am I correct that you need to do 30 days in Afghanistan and no where else to get the GCS? All other AoO (Mirage, Gulf region for ships) should get the GCM?



General Campaign Star – SOUTH-WEST ASIA (GCS-SWA)
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhr-ddhr/chc-tdh/chart-tableau-eng.asp?ref=GCS

Eligibility List, which includes:



> HMC Ships Deployed under OP Altair
> 1 Aug 09 - Present



"OP Altair" +"HMCS Fredericton"


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## armyvern (18 Dec 2010)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> So am I correct that you need to do 30 days in Afghanistan and no where else to get the GCS? All other AoO (Mirage, Gulf region for ships) should get the GCM?



Not necessarily.



> Canadian Honours Chart
> General Campaign Star  – SOUTH-WEST ASIA (GCS-SWA)
> 
> CONTEXT
> ...



Eligibility List


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## NCRCrow (18 Dec 2010)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00&id=3683


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## armyvern (18 Dec 2010)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/news-nouvelles/news-nouvelles-eng.asp?cat=00&id=3683



That has been previously established in this thread as being the recognition for counter-piracy operations. 

Most recent query from Navalsnipr is wrt GCS' being awarded to sailors who have not been into Afghanistan proper.

By the DHH link below, it seems to me that sailors who participated in Op Altair would qualify for GCS's.


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## NCRCrow (18 Dec 2010)

If you put the two links together:

Freddie sailors should be wearing the GCS and the NATO African Bar for OP SAIPH.


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## armyvern (18 Dec 2010)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> If you put the two links together:
> 
> Freddie sailors should be wearing the GCS and the NATO African Bar for OP SAIPH.



See the confusion?? The ref clearly states that the GCS would be awarded only if they were *not* recognized with another medal. The only GCS eligible Op for "HMC Ships" is Op Altair by the DHH link - I don't see Op SAIPH on the "GCS eligible" list anywhere (they get the NATO).


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## NCRCrow (18 Dec 2010)

seen

good point

Maybe NATO and Canadian issued medals are two separate entities?

I do not know the answer


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## Halifax Tar (18 Dec 2010)

Lets not forget the eligibility for the medal as listed here: 



> *ELIGIBILITY & CRITERIA
> 
> The General Campaign Star (GCS) is awarded to members of the Canadian Forces and
> members of allied forces working with the Canadian Forces who deploy into a defined
> ...



This leaves it open to be not an Afghan only medal. In fact wasn't there an AF SQN who was awarded this for the campaign in Kosovo ? 

Also many other Naval pers besides PPEs and Clearance Divers have been over. On the roto In just came home from the PRT, CIMIC, NSE and BTG were all well stocked with a Naval compliment of all trades from Boatswains to Stokers and everything in between not just us PPE's. Also many Naval Boarding pers have gone over on a more OPSEC level.


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## navypuke (18 Dec 2010)

So from what I've seen coorelated here it looks like the HMCS Fredericton was awarded the GCS from the CF and the Nato medal from NATO obviously. Is that allowed? This kinda goes back to the whole SSM/CPSM stuff that guys were getting for one tour. The reason I brought up the Winnipeg cause when she originally did her deployment they were told they were not going to be getting a medal. Then this happened. A buddy of mine got flown out of theatre because of heart complications that have since cleared up and he was awarded a medal. He must have just got under the prerequisite 30 days.


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## armyvern (18 Dec 2010)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> ...
> Also many other Naval pers besides PPEs and Clearance Divers have been over. On the roto In just came home from the PRT, CIMIC, NSE and BTG were all well stocked with a Naval compliment of all trades from Boatswains to Stokers and everything in between not just us PPE's. Also many Naval Boarding pers have gone over on a more OPSEC level.



I understand that more than them have been over ... I was giving "for examples" - I certainly never meant my list to be "mistaken" as "whole, entire and complete" as you seem to have taken it. 

Needless, other campaigns that will receive the GCS in the future will have a different ribbon adorning such award to differentiate that one from the other.

These gents were wearing the GCS Afghanistan  -  ergo the query. And needless to say, HMC Ships participating in Op Altair - and NOT within Afghanistan proper - qualify for the GCS. GCS qualifying service does not, as I stated earlier, have to occur within the geographical boundaries of that one nation. Sandbox/no sandbox ... some can still be awarded the GCS.


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## Halifax Tar (18 Dec 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I understand that more than them have been over ... I was giving "for examples" - I certainly never meant my list to be "mistaken" as "whole, entire and complete" as you seem to have taken it.



No correcting you just making sure others get the representation they deserve.  



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Needless, other campaigns that will receive the GCS in the future will have a different ribbon adorning such award to differentiate that one from the other.



I'm glad we can finally see eye to eye on something!  :nod:



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> These gents were wearing the GCS Afghanistan  -  ergo the query. And needless to say, HMC Ships participating in Op Altair - and NOT within Afghanistan proper - qualify for the GCS. GCS qualifying service does not, as I stated earlier, have to occur within the geographical boundaries of that one nation. Sandbox/no sandbox ... some can still be awarded the GCS.



As well the bar system has changed for the GCS. So the ISAF bar we got in 2006 will now be replaced with the maple leaf bar showing your days in theater. I would expect the freddy crew to get their own ribbon in the future as you have stated or get the 30 Day GCS less any ribbon. I would say watch and shoot but I see that coming. 

Anyhow look at that Vern we agreed on something! Someone check hell and see if its still hot! lol  ;D


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