# Canadian Sovereignty



## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

With all of our integration with the US has Canada become just Canada in name,anthem and flag? Did we sign on to Northern Command I heard that in doing so, the Americans will be setting up bases in Canada. I am just civilian post secondary student but I love Canada more then anything and I fear we are losing it all agreement after agreement. Can someone clarify this for me?  http://forums.army.ca/forums/Smileys/Armyca/sm_canada.gif


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## ModlrMike (30 Jan 2012)

Two questions:

A. As a political science major shouldn't you already know the answer to this?

B. What school do you go to so I can avoid sending my kids there?


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## GAP (30 Jan 2012)

Continue your education.............you have a ways to go................ :


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## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

Thats not fair, as the Definition of Sovereign: is the ability to create and pass laws within clearly defined boarders. Yes we have this criteria! Thats not the question I am asking here... 

I am asking given these agreements we now have with all the integration between the USA are we losing our sovereignty? Will American bases becoming to our soil? 

Thats all I ask...


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## GAP (30 Jan 2012)

no


question answered.


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## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

Thanks GAP, and you are right I do have lots still to learn this is just my first year though!...


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## shreenan (30 Jan 2012)

Its not a big deal if the US built bases here, during the cold war the US had built/financed many radar stations in Canada.


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## SeaKingTacco (30 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> Thanks GAP, and you are right I do have lots still to learn this is just my first year though!...





> clearly defined *boarders*.



Hopefully, spelling will be one of those things...


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## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

@shreenan: 

Canada and the USA see sovereignty differently though. For us it is mostly trade if our government can have access to markets this too is a form of sovereignty.As for the Americans it is military defence, if you as Harper says "Use it or lose it." I would personally see have the Americans here as not good.

To me as a proud Canadian, we must be able to make our own decisions with the US bases here that would remove freedom from our Gov't as security is out sourced!

Here is a quote from Diefenbaker to responding to the USA in Parliament "Canadians will not consent to be committed to war on any snap decision made by another nation."
- May 13, 1953, House of Commons.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Jan 2012)

Apple2018,
Welcome to the site.  Just a friendly hint, we have folks on here who do, or have done, the 'real' political thing for a living. These people know "real-world" consequences of the political game, not the school world of it.  Please join in but just remember that tidbit of information please.
Thanks,
Bruce
Staff 
army.ca


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## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

Thanks Bruce! I mean no disrespect anyway... I am glad to hear that as they can help on my understanding our nation better!


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## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

So having Americans soldiers stationed in Canada that would not be deemed a loss to our nation in anyway?


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> So having Americans soldiers stationed in Canada that would not be deemed a loss to our nation in anyway?



You tell us why it would.


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## Sythen (30 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> So having Americans soldiers stationed in Canada that would not be deemed a loss to our nation in anyway?



There are already American soldiers stationed in Canada and there are Canadians stationed in the US..


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## dogger1936 (30 Jan 2012)

I grew up next to a US army base. And within 100km of two fully operational bases owned and ran by the Ol' USA. We were still a Canadian province then I'm sure we will be if they are stationed here again. I hadn't seen a Canadian soldier in my youth; but seen American soldiers near every week.


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## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

I guess it could be deemed so, as a loss of internal sovereignty who controls does our government have say on there operational extent. I cannot lie I would be just pissed, I think for me it is like an occupying force.

Our forefathers did everything they could too keep the Americans at bay, I think it changed after  WW2. And for sure after 9-11 I think that's when our sovereignty became more questionable at least to me! Like I said I love my nation beyond words there is noting I would not do for it . I would not give my life for the USA though! We must remain fully free its a question freedom for me! I am too proud I guess?


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## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

I know we have exchanges between us that's all good! I just do not want a American bases like in Europe or Germany's Frankfurt.


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## Ex-Dragoon (30 Jan 2012)

Again as stated we have not lost our sovereignty so relax and chill.

Milnet.Ca Staff


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## ModlrMike (30 Jan 2012)

The agreement you appear to refer to is the CANADA - US CIVIL ASSISTANCE PLAN (CAP). The full text of which is available here:

www.canadacom.forces.gc.ca/docs/pdf/cap_e.pdf

As you can see, there's no loss of sovereignty involved.


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## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

Thanks ModlrMike: I lost a lot of sleep over this stuff to put it kindly... Once again thanks!


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## cupper (30 Jan 2012)

I would suggest, if you haven't done so already, take some time to travel outside Canada, and in particular visit your neighbor to the south. Nothing helps you understand your own country better than seeing through the eyes of another nation's citizens.

At the very least, spend some time researching the views that "real" Americans have about Canada.

Trust me, from my 10 years of living south of the 49th Parallel, you'll learn soon enough that our sovereignty is not in jeopardy.


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## Apple2018 (30 Jan 2012)

@cupper:  I do agree I have not done much travelling out side our boarders! When I finish thats first on the list..


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## dimsum (31 Jan 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> Trust me, from my 10 years of living south of the 49th Parallel, you'll learn soon enough that our sovereignty is not in jeopardy.



Quoted For Truth.  I'll add that for more fun, try asking some of them who don't live in the top half of bordering states to name one major Canadian city.  Despite Vancouver having hosted the last Winter Olympics.


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## cupper (31 Jan 2012)

Interestingly enough, my wife took the dogs to a local dog park over the weekend, and she met a couple there, the husband apparently has a degree in Canadian Studies from US school.

I've run into quite a few Americans locally who have some knowledge of Canada, and quite a few that have visited. But they are more exceptions that prove the rule that Americans for the most part have little concern for what happens outside their own borders.


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## cupper (31 Jan 2012)

And as long as we have hockey, Canada's sovereignty will never fall into dispute!

(However, the only exception appears to be some small out of the way arctic islands off the Greenland coast which some non-hockey playing Danes tried to usurp a few years ago.)


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## dapaterson (31 Jan 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> I've run into quite a few Americans locally who have some knowledge of Canada, and quite a few that have visited. But they are more exceptions that prove the rule that Americans for the most part have little concern for what happens outside their own borders.



And many Canadians adopt a sneering sense of superiority that's utterly unfounded when dealing with Americans - that we can watch CBS, NBC, ABC and Fox does not make us experts in American politics.

For an interesting counterpoint, visit New Zealand and observe their attitudes to the Australians...


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## Kirkhill (31 Jan 2012)

:goodpost:

Well said DAP.

The more I know of Yanks the less I like the Leafs.


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## George Wallace (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> Thats not fair, as the Definition of Sovereign: is the ability to create and pass laws within clearly defined boarders. Yes we have this criteria! Thats not the question I am asking here...
> 
> I am asking given these agreements we now have with all the integration between the USA are we losing our sovereignty? Will American bases becoming to our soil?
> 
> Thats all I ask...



Too many things to quote of yours, that I only picked this one.  You are exhibiting the failures of our Education System in more ways than one.  I will overlook your command of communicating clearly and concisely in English and focus on your grasp of Canadian History.  You are asking about events of our history that have already happened in the past, not some theoretical event of the future.  Perhaps you should examine in detail what was involved in the creation of The DEW Line, the Mid-Canada Line, and the Pinetree Line, as well as Diefenbaker's scrapping of the Avro Arrow and the purchase of the VooDoo and Bomarc missiles?  You may also look at the history of Newfoundland and the American base in Argentia.  Perhaps you would also be interested in how the Yukon Hwy came about?  Let's not forget the Cuban Missile Crisis and Canada's role.

Your grasp of Canadian history is sadly lacking.



[Edit to add]   You by chance aren't going to U of T, are you?


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## RangerRay (31 Jan 2012)

Do Germans feel less sovereign because there are US military bases on its soil?  Based on my three visits to Germany post Cold War, I can safely say "No".  I think only far left radicals such as Die Linke and those who supported the Red Army Faction wanted the US bases closed.

The British Army is based in Alberta, and at one time, the German Bundeswehr was based in Manitoba (not sure if they still are).  I don't think we are being "occupied" by Britain or Germany.


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## dimsum (31 Jan 2012)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> The British Army is based in Alberta, and at one time, the *German Bundeswehr was based in Manitoba (not sure if they still are)*.  I don't think we are being "occupied" by Britain or Germany.



They aren't.  They left Shilo in the 90s.


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## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> To me as a proud Canadian, we must be able to make our own decisions with the US bases here that would remove freedom from our Gov't as *security is out sourced*!


Having foreign troops in Canada =/= somebody else is protecting us (see earlier-mentioned examples of Brits and Americans already here)


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## RangerRay (31 Jan 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> They aren't.  They left Shilo in the 90s.


Thanks.


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## RangerRay (31 Jan 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> For an interesting counterpoint, visit New Zealand and observe their attitudes to the Australians...



Even more interesting, ask a Kiwi their opinion of the French.


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## Loachman (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> I do agree I have not done much travelling out side our boarders!



Travelling outside of both borders and boarders are good things.

Travelling inside of borders (the edges of one's country) is merely limiting, but travelling inside of boarders (people who live with one and pay rent) would be rather icky.


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## aesop081 (31 Jan 2012)

Canada = Great

America = Bad

Ok, got it.


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## dapaterson (31 Jan 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Canada = Great
> 
> America = *Fuck Yeah!*
> 
> Ok, got it.



Fixed that for you.


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## GAP (31 Jan 2012)

:rofl:


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## Michael OLeary (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> To me as a proud Canadian, we must be able to make our own decisions with the US bases here that would remove freedom from our Gov't as security is out sourced!



How did Naval Station Argentia undermine Canadian sovereignty? Discuss.


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## Scott (31 Jan 2012)

Wow, and it's not even reading week yet.


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## Pusser (31 Jan 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You by chance aren't going to U of T, are you?



Now you're just being mean.  You must have gone to York.


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## aesop081 (31 Jan 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> You must have gone to York.



Worse......SFU !!


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## dimsum (31 Jan 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Now you're just being mean.  You must have gone to York.



That`s just being mean to York grads.  I say Ryerson.

*I'm not either.  Go 'Stangs Go!*


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## Apple2018 (31 Jan 2012)

I'm attending U of A

I guess my stance on sovereignty was kind of unjustified given my lack of prior knowledge. This whole topic for me started with, this online article regarding the militarisation of North America. 


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6572


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## aesop081 (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> I'm attending U of A
> 
> I guess my stance on sovereignty was kind of unjustified given my lack of prior knowledge. This whole topic for me started with, this online article regarding the militarisation of North America.
> 
> ...



The U of A never taught you to evaluate your sources before going off half-cocked ?


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## Apple2018 (31 Jan 2012)

I am not a military analysts, I just read very dry textbooks!  I feared Harper was going to just give Canada over to the U.S.A. That was the just of it anyway, I'm not too trusting of our government on this topic anyway; I fear lack of oversight by Harper, just to get his agenda through. Again I'm just a student that’s just an opinion.


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## dimsum (31 Jan 2012)

What do you think his agenda is?  

 >


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## aesop081 (31 Jan 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> What do you think his agenda is?
> 
> >



You had to ask didn't you.......... :facepalm:


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## Apple2018 (31 Jan 2012)

LOL..
Well he won't legalize pot that is a given! As for his agenda, I have a hard time telling as he plays his cards very close to his chest. I feel he needs to be more open and transparent. That is what he ran on back in the day after the ad-scam fiasco with the old Liberal party.


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## Old Sweat (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> I'm attending U of A
> 
> I guess my stance on sovereignty was kind of unjustified given my lack of prior knowledge. This whole topic for me started with, this online article regarding the militarisation of North America.
> 
> ...


You do realize that this is already covered in the existing Canada-US Defence of North American agreements, and the only new aspect was the creation of Northern Command? I speak with some authority, as at one time in my career I was the Canadian desk officer for the Canada-US Land Operations Plan, commonly known as the Canus Landop.


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## Apple2018 (31 Jan 2012)

@Old Sweat: I would like to have your input on this. Why Northern Command though? Just less bureaucracy?


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## Old Sweat (31 Jan 2012)

I have to go out in a shot while, but try this reference for a start.

http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vo6/no1/inter-eng.asp

Edit to add: Please note that this all dates back to 1940 when Europe had been overrun by Germany and there was some doubt the UK could survive. Also be aware that this provides a framework for Canadian forces to train in the US, and this access to desert conditions during winter months was a great help in preparing units for Afghanistan. I believe some members on this site also trained in California before deploying to the Balkans, and in 1950-1951 Canadians trained in the US before deploying to Korea.


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## Apple2018 (31 Jan 2012)

Looks like good Info! I will take a closer look at. Thanks!


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## aesop081 (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> Why Northern Command though?



Just like the US has "Central command", "Southern Command", "Africa Command"..........

"North" is just another part of the world.

 :

Theres no conspiracy here...........


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## a_majoor (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> LOL..
> Well he won't legalize pot that is a given! As for his agenda, I have a hard time telling as he plays his cards very close to his chest. I feel he needs to be more open and transparent. That is what he ran on back in the day after the ad-scam fiasco with the old Liberal party.



So your entire concept of what the Prime Minister and the CPC stand for dates to the "Secret Agenda" and "Soldiers in the streets, with guns" Liberal era political ads? Call us in 5 years when you want to discuss proposed changes to OAS.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> I'm attending U of A
> 
> I guess my stance on sovereignty was kind of unjustified given my lack of prior knowledge. This whole topic for me started with, this online article regarding the militarisation of North America.
> 
> ...



Along with not researching the subject before launching into your 'Chicken Little' routine, you didn't research the author, Michel Chossudovsky, either. Let me help.

Granted, this is from Wikipedia, but I really can't take any of this (your assertion) serious enough to do your research for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky



> Criticism
> 
> In an op-ed in the conservative Canadian news outlet, Western Standard, Chossudovsky was listed as one of Canada's nuttiest professors "whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues."[26] Specifically, the op-ed criticized GlobalResearch.ca as "anti-U.S. and anti-globalization"[26] and criticized Chussodovsky's "wild-eyed conspiracy theories", which provided the following three of his theories: that the U.S. had knowledge of the 911 attacks before they happened; that Washington had weapons that could influence climate change; and lastly, that the large banking institutions are the cause of the collapse of smaller economies.[26]
> 
> ...



If you're going to get worked up about something that someone is saying. Make sure that someone is worth listening to.


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## QORvanweert (31 Jan 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If you're going to get worked up about something that someone is saying. Make sure that someone is worth listening to.



I have been following this thread with much amusement over the last couple of days. Thank you for thoroughly debunking that awful awful awful link. I have a feeling the OP is just trolling us for a reaction though.


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## cupper (31 Jan 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> If you're going to get worked up about something that someone is saying. Make sure that someone is worth listening to.



 :nod:

A few others around here could learn that lesson too! ;D


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## Jarnhamar (31 Jan 2012)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> So your entire concept of what the Prime Minister and the CPC stand for dates to the "Secret Agenda" and "Soldiers in the streets, with guns" Liberal era political ads? Call us in 5 years when you want to discuss proposed changes to OAS.



He's not making this up  ;D


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## GAP (31 Jan 2012)

Yeah he is.......isn't he?


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## Rifleman62 (31 Jan 2012)

You guys realize of course that  Apple 2018 is actually Redeye screwing with you.


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## Apple2018 (31 Jan 2012)

I would never mess around! It was a legit question! So I goofed on the source it happens, I will be more vigilant next time! Its all in good learning anyway. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would have said we're all heading to a North American Union, much like the EU! That we all know to be false!


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> I would never mess around! It was a legit question! So I goofed on the source it happens, I will be more vigilant next time! Its all in good learning anyway. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would have said we're all heading to a North American Union, much like the EU! That we all know to be false!



Are you satisfied, and done here or have you found out Walmart has tinfoil on sale?


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## The Bread Guy (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> I'm attending U of A
> 
> I guess my stance on sovereignty was kind of unjustified given my lack of prior knowledge. This whole topic for me started with, this online article regarding the militarisation of North America.
> 
> ...


You're joking, right?  In addition to recceguy's material, how about these other classics by the same author?

9/11 Foreknowledge and "Intelligence Failures": "Revealing the Lies" on 9/11 Perpetuates the "Big Lie"
The Pentagon is using Haiti as a Training Ground for Afghanistan
Canada: The Killer H1N1 Vaccine



			
				Apple2018 said:
			
		

> I would never mess around! It was a legit question! So I goofed on the source it happens, I will be more vigilant next time! Its all in good learning anyway. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would have said we're all heading to a North American Union, much like the EU! That we all know to be false!


You should be a bit more careful about your research if you're in post-secondary, my friend.  In case your profs don't encourage it, you may want to read up on evaluating web pages - try here, here or here.


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## RangerRay (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> LOL..
> Well he won't legalize pot that is a given!



Oh no!  The horror!  You can't smoke weed legally!  If that is your main concern, then I think things are pretty good.

How many other countries have legalized pot?  I can guarantee you that we are far from being the only ones.



> As for his agenda, I have a hard time telling as he plays his cards very close to his chest. I feel he needs to be more open and transparent. That is what he ran on back in the day after the ad-scam fiasco with the old Liberal party.



In other words, nothing concrete, just feelings and innuendo.  And whatever the media tells you.  You may want to work on your critical thinking skills.


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## cupper (31 Jan 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would have said we're all heading to a North American Union, much like the EU! That we all know to be false!



Actually, if you were a conspiracy theorist, you would be screaming from Mount Logan about the coming NEW WORLD ORDER and how the UN will become the WORLD GOVERNMENT to rule us all.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Feb 2012)

Apple2018 said:
			
		

> I would never mess around! It was a legit question! So I goofed on the source it happens, I will be more vigilant next time! Its all in good learning anyway. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would have said we're all heading to a North American Union, much like the EU! That we all know to be false!



Dumb.


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## Apple2018 (2 Feb 2012)

Good thing for Piety, and the occasional pretentious comment lol. 

@milnews.ca: My profs do not like or encourage us to use websites at all, including wikipedia for any research or term papers. But the sites you provided for evaluating websites is good still! A definite requirement just to protect my own integrity when trying to make a point in general discussion.


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