# Pay and ranks



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:24:30 -0600*
I thought my use of the word "correct" would be like raising the
proverbial red flag in front of a bull and I wasn‘t disappointed you
rose to the bait to mix metaphores. I, not a current serving member,
have no recent personal experience, just am told by many that the system
works better than it did obviously I‘ve been talking only to those who
have not been screwed but some Sr NCOs/Offrswho either have no
problems or their heads in the sand. Many of those who get screwd
quietly leave and that‘s the real pity.
Steve Kuervers wrote:
> 
> Correct... what about the current pay system can you call correct.
> Accountability is lacking throughout the system.  I don‘t mind if I don‘t
> get paid as an officer as it is expected of me to be self-sufficient with my
> civy job, but my troops... there is no excuse for not paying my troops
> properly, and often it isn‘t done.
> 
> If a private corporation paid it‘s people like DND pays its troops Reg and
> Reserve, they would be in serious trouble.  If McDonalds can manage to pay
> everyone of their employees bi-weekly than why can‘t we.
> 
> yes it is a very sore point
> 
> Steve
> 
> >From: Ian Edwards 
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >Subject: Re: HISTORICAL QUESTION
> >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:47:17 -0600
> >
> >Except that in the Militia Res we didn‘t have pay books. Perhaps we
> >should have had them then. Remember also that there were no sign-in
> >sheets, just names called daily at the pl or coy level and transferred
> >to sheets. In 1970 a friend in Ottawa, Terry Jacobs, was tasked with
> >"automating" the Reserve pay system. Took his successors almost 30 years
> >to finally correct the problem for DND.
> >
> >Thanks for the "boost" Wyn. Guess that makes us even you no longer owe
> >me a beer.
> >
> >Wyn van der Schee wrote:
> > >
> > > Ian Edwards is absolutely correct about pay parades. snip
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:47:25 -0500*
First, lets get that "traditions" title taken down.. because this isn‘t
traditions, its a pay scrap.
Appointments are a dicey thing to base pay on.  A wise Commander, in my own
opinion, decides priorities and mates or pairs or teams appropriate, in his
command judgement to the best achievement of the missions and priority of
his unit be this a brigade, a battalion or a platoon...or come to think of
it, of a section.
And if you are a good section/platoon/company/battalion commander, you will
periodically test/rest and/or stretch some of your people.
Now to go on to the unionist talk, this would mean altering their pay...is
this fair?
Given that there are those who cannot, or whatever, DO NOT show up at crunch
time they still hold the appointment, right?
And, realistically, people are, in any action, going to get sick, stranded,
wounded, killed or left out of battle by no fault of their own.  So how do
we know a Sergeant is going to make a good Warrant?
A judgement of his stability and maturity...as a WO, he‘s no longer a
candidate for punishment by a LCol  something the "demoter" faction
overlooks
He can do the job and he should demonstrate this by going forth and doing a
job at a higher level than his rank..
He has the dedication to go out and put his time in on the required courses,
agreeing that its tough, but its not just a hobby, its a bit of a career,
too...
In MilAreaPrairie in the late 70‘s/early 80‘s, CO‘s were required to "rank"
their personnel from Majors down to MCpl‘s, as who, in their considered
opinion, were the "best", and to give an idea of the career plan to be
offered the member.  Selections for Rank and Trade Schools if I remember
the term correctlythose ‘courses‘ you required for promotion had to be
based on the PER of the PRes member if MAP got tosend one or two candidates
to TQ 5, for instance, the ones selected were based on the Unit‘s need, and
the candidates ranking and aptitude...
This, I believe, i the hallmark of at least a nearly professional
organization.  That someone should prevail in rank and progression simply
because of "time in" is patently ridiculous.
To promote someone without the dedication to put out the effort to take, and
pass the course in the top third...well, I‘ll leave that alone...some things
you do not learn on OJT.
Okay, I have "vented".
Yes, I sat as a Sergeant for five or six years as a Warrant for nine or
ten, before I could get the time for a course.  Yes, I did every job in an
Infantry Battailion, except Transport, but including DA holder rep/RQMS
what‘ll you pay for that job?...I did it as a Sgt
If you need to be paid for every ten minutes you work, you‘ll never pass
that one!
If the pay system is under-market, okay, I can take that because it is and
always has been.  Just think about this... I watched VC holder "Smokey"
Smith on TV a week ago...what do you figure he was getting paid for sniping
tanks with a PIAT?   And he, remember, was a Reservist...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "The MacFarlanes‘" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: Pay Comparison [Traditions]
> I haven‘t whined for awhile, so here it goes...... the special pay scale
for
> key appointments is an interesting concept..... except the idea that you
> have the quals, and not time in. I was a TSM Plt WO for 5 yrs, which
also
> included taking over for the BSM, when he wasn‘t around. BUT I never got a
> promotion to WO, because I didn‘t have the 6 weeks of free time rquired to
> go on a 6B course or whatever the thing was called back then. They were
> getting more than their money‘s worth out of me - a WOs/MWOs job, at a
> Sergeant‘s pay. It didn‘t bother me a bit though, really. I did a pretty
> good job, and was so proud of myself, pay wasn‘t too much of an issue. A
> little resentful of the system, where people with no jobs, or no civvy
> responsibilities were better able to attend course than people with good
> jobs and careers.
> MacF
> ================================================================
>
>
> > Perhaps it‘s time for some pay reform.  Should there be fixed minimum
pay
> scales
> > for all key appointments eg. CO, DCO, RSM, OC, CSM, Pl Comd, Pl WO for
> which
> > the individual has all qualifications except time-in?  I suppose that
> there are
> > a number of LCol out there who are overseeing fewer people than some of
> the Maj.
> > Equal pay for equal work?
> >
> > Brad Sallows
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Sun, 18 Mar 2001 23:42:14 -0800*
If you look closely, you can find some 5 year Ocdt‘s, but they are UTPM
types that attend TUNS in Nova scotia..Oh a a few RMC types that fail a
year, pay thier own way to repeat a year.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian  McGregor" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Pay rates
> An  OCdt in the reserves gets paid as a 2Lt.  This is because no pay scale
> exists for a Reg Force OCdt not being paid to attend university.  In the
Reg
> force a graduate goes to 2Lt regardless of training level.  What this
means
> is that the PRes OCdt will not see a pay increase with the first
promotion.
> I remember listening to RMC student whining that the reservists got more
one
> each summer pay check than they did.  The differences was that the RMC
> students would blow their pay checks on anything and everything while the
> reservists would look at their money in the bank and think "another two
> thousand and I will have enough for tuition, but maybe I will have to do
> without a few course books this year . . ."
>
> Where  can one find a four year OCdt?  At RMC or any other Canadian
> university where an ROTP candidate is being sponsored, a reserve unit
which
> is putting new officers through MITCIP as opposed to RESO, or a reserve
unit
> with a OCdt who has been having really bad luck passing Ph II I met a guy
> who went home on crutches three years in a row.
>
> Ian McGregor
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Butler" 
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 3:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Pay rates
>
>
> > Although my knowledge of progression through the ranks is far from
> perfect,
> > being wet behind the ears and all, it is my understanding that no one
> would
> > remain an Officer Cadet for 4 years, unless they were Reservists taking
> the
> > MITCIP route, which takes a long time to complete.  As I potentially
> > incorrectly understand it, upon completetion of Phase II of BIOC,
OCdt‘s
> > are commissioned and promoted to 2Lt.
> >
> > Anyone know the exact story?  I‘ve not been able to figure it out, and
> this
> > is based only on what I could piece together from snippets of stories
> > basically.
> >
> > Paratus
> >
> > Nick Butler
> >
> > >From: "Joan O. Arc" Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca To:
> army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > >Subject: Re: Pay rates Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 05:05:44 -0000
> > >
> > >Checked ‘em. And unless those rates are weekly, it looks as if an
> > >"officer-cadet" at the 4-year level earns the princely sum of $14,436
per
> > >year though, as has been pointed out, 2nd Lts. *do* seem to do OK, at
> > >around $3,000 or so per month. $14,000 doesn‘t seem like a lot to me,
> but
> > >is there something I‘m missing?
> > >
> > >
> > >----Original Message Follows---- From: "Jay Digital" Reply-To:
> > >army-list@CdnArmy.ca To: Subject: Pay rates Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001
> 23:18:08
> > >-0500
> > >
> > >Here‘s the current pay scales in case anyone is interested:
> >
>
>http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dppd/pay/engraph/home_e.asp?index=rankkey=OFFICER-CAD
> ETalt=N
> > >
> >
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > >
> > >-------------------------------------------------------- NOTE: To
remove
> > >yourself from this list, send a message to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from
the
> > >account you wish to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in
the
> > >message body.
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 03:04:13 -0000*
OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest questions yet. 
Brace yourselves!
After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or not, 
and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts. are, in 
fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The McGregors, 
maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid and so 
I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the DND web 
site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out roughly 
who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is probably 
the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a 
"non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the difference 
between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking about 
this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to 
university/military college or something, but this is very probably wrong.
And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too hard, let 
me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be roughly 
representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain why the 
armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the public 
!.
If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read all the 
posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my head. Am 
waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
Joan
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:38:38 -0500*
I don‘t really have the knowledge to give your question a proper answer but
I would like to comment that privates do make decent wages. If you consider
a private only pays in the neighbourhood of $400 a month for food and
lodging they have quite a bit of money that really is just surplus income.
As a recruit you clear about $1000 a month after taxes, room, board,
etc...etc... That‘s a good amount of money for someone who has no expenses
and probably no financial obligations. Some of you may point out that some
privates have families to take care of but I liken the role of private to
working in the mailroom for a corporation. It‘s the first rung on a ladder
that could be quite lucrative. If you have a family and/or a lot of
financial obligations then perhaps the NCM path isn‘t for you.
All in all I‘d like to say I find the pay to be more than reasonable.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Pay and ranks
> OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest questions
yet.
> Brace yourselves!
>
> After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or not,
> and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts. are, in
> fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The McGregors,
> maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid and
so
> I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
>
> Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the DND web
> site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
roughly
> who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is probably
> the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
> "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
difference
> between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking
about
> this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
> university/military college or something, but this is very probably wrong.
>
> And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too hard, let
> me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be roughly
> representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain why the
> armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the public
> !.
>
> If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read all the
> posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my head.
Am
> waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
>
> Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
>
>
> Joan
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:45:29 -0700*
Joan, I guess that I have to ask as well, how come your address is the same
as Burgess‘s?
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:04 PM
Subject: Pay and ranks
> OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest questions
yet.
> Brace yourselves!
>
> After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or not,
> and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts. are, in
> fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The McGregors,
> maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid and
so
> I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
>
> Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the DND web
> site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
roughly
> who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is probably
> the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
> "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
difference
> between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking
about
> this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
> university/military college or something, but this is very probably wrong.
>
> And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too hard, let
> me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be roughly
> representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain why the
> armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the public
> !.
>
> If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read all the
> posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my head.
Am
> waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
>
> Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
>
>
> Joan
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 05:24:40 -0000*
But it isn‘t, honest. Or if it is, it must be because some portion of 
Ontario Hotmail accounts are run through a server at the college or 
something. I‘m afraid the only part of the greater Ottawa area with which 
I‘m truly familiar is the Chateau Laurier, and the last time I checked, 
there weren‘t no community college there... Sorry to disappoint, but I 
really am in Hogtown!
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:45:29 -0700
Joan, I guess that I have to ask as well, how come your address is the same
as Burgess‘s?
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:04 PM
Subject: Pay and ranks
 > OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest questions
yet.
 > Brace yourselves!
 >
 > After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or not,
 > and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts. are, in
 > fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The 
McGregors,
 > maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid and
so
 > I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
 >
 > Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the DND 
web
 > site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
roughly
 > who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is probably
 > the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
 > "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
difference
 > between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking
about
 > this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
 > university/military college or something, but this is very probably 
wrong.
 >
 > And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too hard, 
let
 > me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be roughly
 > representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain why 
the
 > armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the public
 > !.
 >
 > If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read all 
the
 > posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my head.
Am
 > waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
 >
 > Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
 >
 >
 > Joan
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 05:26:44 -0000*
Thanks Jay, but I wasn‘t quibbling about the pay issue again. Just trying to 
figure out what the difference in training and status between NCO‘s and CO‘s 
is.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Jay Digital" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:38:38 -0500
I don‘t really have the knowledge to give your question a proper answer but
I would like to comment that privates do make decent wages. If you consider
a private only pays in the neighbourhood of $400 a month for food and
lodging they have quite a bit of money that really is just surplus income.
As a recruit you clear about $1000 a month after taxes, room, board,
etc...etc... That‘s a good amount of money for someone who has no expenses
and probably no financial obligations. Some of you may point out that some
privates have families to take care of but I liken the role of private to
working in the mailroom for a corporation. It‘s the first rung on a ladder
that could be quite lucrative. If you have a family and/or a lot of
financial obligations then perhaps the NCM path isn‘t for you.
All in all I‘d like to say I find the pay to be more than reasonable.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Pay and ranks
 > OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest questions
yet.
 > Brace yourselves!
 >
 > After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or not,
 > and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts. are, in
 > fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The 
McGregors,
 > maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid and
so
 > I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
 >
 > Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the DND 
web
 > site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
roughly
 > who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is probably
 > the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
 > "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
difference
 > between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking
about
 > this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
 > university/military college or something, but this is very probably 
wrong.
 >
 > And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too hard, 
let
 > me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be roughly
 > representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain why 
the
 > armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the public
 > !.
 >
 > If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read all 
the
 > posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my head.
Am
 > waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
 >
 > Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
 >
 >
 > Joan
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 05:34:14 -0000*
By the way, Don and others, if the kind of hostility and suspicion to 
which I‘m now being subjected after seven months on the list is indicative 
of the way you think writers with an interest in military issues should be 
treated, might I venture to suggest that it‘s no wonder the CF often suffers 
from bad press?
And before anyone starts freaking out on me, NO I have never written 
anything based on comments posted to this Board, nor would I do so without 
seeking express permission from its members. Maybe because I‘m not a 
full-time, professional journalist A lot of the writing I do is web site 
content, press releases, junk like that - not very glamorous, or 
interesting., I do have a strong code of ethics to which I adhere. It‘s not 
just military types who pride themselves on their sense of professional 
honour and reponsibility, you know Though I freely admit many journos are 
scum-sucking pigs, but I ain‘t - I hope - one of them!.
My apologies for any offense the above may give, but this silliness has gone 
on quite long enough, I think,
Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:45:29 -0700
Joan, I guess that I have to ask as well, how come your address is the same
as Burgess‘s?
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:04 PM
Subject: Pay and ranks
 > OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest questions
yet.
 > Brace yourselves!
 >
 > After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or not,
 > and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts. are, in
 > fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The 
McGregors,
 > maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid and
so
 > I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
 >
 > Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the DND 
web
 > site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
roughly
 > who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is probably
 > the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
 > "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
difference
 > between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking
about
 > this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
 > university/military college or something, but this is very probably 
wrong.
 >
 > And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too hard, 
let
 > me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be roughly
 > representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain why 
the
 > armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the public
 > !.
 >
 > If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read all 
the
 > posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my head.
Am
 > waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
 >
 > Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
 >
 >
 > Joan
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steven and Tracy" <stcurtis@compusmart.ab.ca>* on *	Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:57:34 -0700*
Again I would have to say that even privates with families cannot complain
about the pay!!!  They are the only rank that is also given a Q according to
what their wages areatleast in the first two years  Privates can afford
much on what they are paid and what money goes out!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Digital" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
> I don‘t really have the knowledge to give your question a proper answer
but
> I would like to comment that privates do make decent wages. If you
consider
> a private only pays in the neighbourhood of $400 a month for food and
> lodging they have quite a bit of money that really is just surplus income.
> As a recruit you clear about $1000 a month after taxes, room, board,
> etc...etc... That‘s a good amount of money for someone who has no expenses
> and probably no financial obligations. Some of you may point out that some
> privates have families to take care of but I liken the role of private to
> working in the mailroom for a corporation. It‘s the first rung on a ladder
> that could be quite lucrative. If you have a family and/or a lot of
> financial obligations then perhaps the NCM path isn‘t for you.
>
> All in all I‘d like to say I find the pay to be more than reasonable.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joan O. Arc" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:04 PM
> Subject: Pay and ranks
>
>
> > OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest questions
> yet.
> > Brace yourselves!
> >
> > After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or
not,
> > and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts. are,
in
> > fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The
McGregors,
> > maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid
and
> so
> > I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
> >
> > Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the DND
web
> > site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
> roughly
> > who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is
probably
> > the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
> > "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
> difference
> > between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking
> about
> > this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
> > university/military college or something, but this is very probably
wrong.
> >
> > And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too hard,
let
> > me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be
roughly
> > representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain why
the
> > armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the
public
> > !.
> >
> > If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read all
the
> > posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my head.
> Am
> > waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
> >
> >
> > Joan
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:11:15 -0600*
on 20/3/01 23:34, Joan O. Arc at joan_o_arc@hotmail.com wrote:
> My apologies for any offense the above may give, but this silliness has gone
> on quite long enough, I think,
> 
> Joan
I think so as well. You don‘t offend me Joan, never have. The questions you
ask here, seem to me to be valid and I don‘t think any national secrets are
getting passed to you.
I thought this mailing list was to discuss Army stuff. Lately I‘ve seen
innuendos flying around and some pals pattin each other on the back.
Is it all really required?
Your orginal question about what is an NCM or Non Commisioned Officer is
simply answered like this
Non Commisioned Officers comprise the rank of Corporal, Master Corporal and
Sergeant. They just don‘t have a commision. After that you have a ‘warrant‘
to serve Her Majesty, which is really her ‘authority‘. Those ranks comprise
a Warrant Officer, Master Warrant Officer and Chief Warrant Officer.
Although the CWO is the only one that actually get a Warrant or Brevet fr
from the GG. If you toss the Private soldier into this fray they would all
be called Non Commisioned Members, that is to say, they ain‘t Officers. :
arte et marte
anderson sends:
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:49:31 -0000*
OK, thanks Andy. I think *now* we can get to the root of what I don‘t 
understand: What, pray tell, in the military context is a "commission"? I‘ve 
heard relatives and friends toss these terms - nCO and CO - around for years 
and have never bothered to ask exactly what these distinctions are. If by 
asking I‘ve raised the ire of certain members of the list, that‘s OK. I bet 
if I were running a list about "the market for interior designers in 
Toronto" a current market research project on which I‘m working More 
details for the snoops!, many members of this list wouldn‘t do much better 
than I‘m doing on this one.
By the way, as a final comment in reply to Don‘s recent question about why I 
appear to be in Ottawa when I‘m not, let me add that when J-F posted that 
"tracking me" thing the other night, I couldn‘t actually link to 3 of the 4 
tracking sites shown as part of his "expert sleuthing" i.e. - the URL‘s 
shown as part of the trail appeared to be duds when I tried to connect to 
them. Now, I know diddly squat about computers about as much as I do about 
the military, I guess! and was probably doing something wrong, but it seems 
to me that it might *just* be possible for someone who knows a lot about 
computers to either: a fake the paper trail, or b misinterpet/misrepresent 
what it means by, for instance, over-looking all the "trt and "tor" codes - 
for Toronto - that popped up!
Cheers,
Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "William J  Anderson" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: "army@cipherlogic.on.ca" 
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:11:15 -0600
on 20/3/01 23:34, Joan O. Arc at joan_o_arc@hotmail.com wrote:
 > My apologies for any offense the above may give, but this silliness has 
gone
 > on quite long enough, I think,
 >
 > Joan
I think so as well. You don‘t offend me Joan, never have. The questions you
ask here, seem to me to be valid and I don‘t think any national secrets are
getting passed to you.
I thought this mailing list was to discuss Army stuff. Lately I‘ve seen
innuendos flying around and some pals pattin each other on the back.
Is it all really required?
Your orginal question about what is an NCM or Non Commisioned Officer is
simply answered like this
Non Commisioned Officers comprise the rank of Corporal, Master Corporal and
Sergeant. They just don‘t have a commision. After that you have a ‘warrant‘
to serve Her Majesty, which is really her ‘authority‘. Those ranks comprise
a Warrant Officer, Master Warrant Officer and Chief Warrant Officer.
Although the CWO is the only one that actually get a Warrant or Brevet fr
from the GG. If you toss the Private soldier into this fray they would all
be called Non Commisioned Members, that is to say, they ain‘t Officers. :
arte et marte
anderson sends:
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 06:55:08 -0000*
I‘m quite prepared to believe it, and am glad to hear it, too.
So, then, I guess when the CBC or whomever runs stories about soldiers 
having to use food banks, etc., it‘s probably wrong, or at least misleading, 
huh? Wouldn‘t be the first time...
*These* are, by the way, exactly the kinds of misconceptions I hoped to have 
corrected by joining the list, and am grateful to those who can be bothered 
answering my questions in a civil tone, rather than flaming me or shooting 
me down.
Will try to shut up with them for a while though! :
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Steven and Tracy" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:57:34 -0700
Again I would have to say that even privates with families cannot complain
about the pay!!!  They are the only rank that is also given a Q according to
what their wages areatleast in the first two years  Privates can afford
much on what they are paid and what money goes out!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Digital" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
 > I don‘t really have the knowledge to give your question a proper answer
but
 > I would like to comment that privates do make decent wages. If you
consider
 > a private only pays in the neighbourhood of $400 a month for food and
 > lodging they have quite a bit of money that really is just surplus 
income.
 > As a recruit you clear about $1000 a month after taxes, room, board,
 > etc...etc... That‘s a good amount of money for someone who has no 
expenses
 > and probably no financial obligations. Some of you may point out that 
some
 > privates have families to take care of but I liken the role of private to
 > working in the mailroom for a corporation. It‘s the first rung on a 
ladder
 > that could be quite lucrative. If you have a family and/or a lot of
 > financial obligations then perhaps the NCM path isn‘t for you.
 >
 > All in all I‘d like to say I find the pay to be more than reasonable.
 >
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Joan O. Arc" 
 > To: 
 > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:04 PM
 > Subject: Pay and ranks
 >
 >
 > > OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest questions
 > yet.
 > > Brace yourselves!
 > >
 > > After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or
not,
 > > and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts. are,
in
 > > fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The
McGregors,
 > > maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid
and
 > so
 > > I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
 > >
 > > Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the DND
web
 > > site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
 > roughly
 > > who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is
probably
 > > the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
 > > "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
 > difference
 > > between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking
 > about
 > > this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
 > > university/military college or something, but this is very probably
wrong.
 > >
 > > And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too hard,
let
 > > me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be
roughly
 > > representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain why
the
 > > armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the
public
 > > !.
 > >
 > > If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read all
the
 > > posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my 
head.
 > Am
 > > waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
 > >
 > > Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
 > >
 > >
 > > Joan
 > >
_________________________________________________________________________
 > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
 > >
 > > --------------------------------------------------------
 > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > > message body.
 > >
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steven and Tracy" <stcurtis@compusmart.ab.ca>* on *	Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:34:17 -0700*
Trust me we do not need to use the food banks!!!!  We have five children and
live quite comfortable and love being military!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
> I‘m quite prepared to believe it, and am glad to hear it, too.
>
> So, then, I guess when the CBC or whomever runs stories about soldiers
> having to use food banks, etc., it‘s probably wrong, or at least
misleading,
> huh? Wouldn‘t be the first time...
>
> *These* are, by the way, exactly the kinds of misconceptions I hoped to
have
> corrected by joining the list, and am grateful to those who can be
bothered
> answering my questions in a civil tone, rather than flaming me or shooting
> me down.
>
> Will try to shut up with them for a while though! :
>
> - Joan
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Steven and Tracy" 
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:57:34 -0700
>
> Again I would have to say that even privates with families cannot complain
> about the pay!!!  They are the only rank that is also given a Q according
to
> what their wages areatleast in the first two years  Privates can afford
> much on what they are paid and what money goes out!!!!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jay Digital" 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:38 PM
> Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
>
>
>  > I don‘t really have the knowledge to give your question a proper answer
> but
>  > I would like to comment that privates do make decent wages. If you
> consider
>  > a private only pays in the neighbourhood of $400 a month for food and
>  > lodging they have quite a bit of money that really is just surplus
> income.
>  > As a recruit you clear about $1000 a month after taxes, room, board,
>  > etc...etc... That‘s a good amount of money for someone who has no
> expenses
>  > and probably no financial obligations. Some of you may point out that
> some
>  > privates have families to take care of but I liken the role of private
to
>  > working in the mailroom for a corporation. It‘s the first rung on a
> ladder
>  > that could be quite lucrative. If you have a family and/or a lot of
>  > financial obligations then perhaps the NCM path isn‘t for you.
>  >
>  > All in all I‘d like to say I find the pay to be more than reasonable.
>  >
>  > ----- Original Message -----
>  > From: "Joan O. Arc" 
>  > To: 
>  > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:04 PM
>  > Subject: Pay and ranks
>  >
>  >
>  > > OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest
questions
>  > yet.
>  > > Brace yourselves!
>  > >
>  > > After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or
> not,
>  > > and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts.
are,
> in
>  > > fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The
> McGregors,
>  > > maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid
> and
>  > so
>  > > I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
>  > >
>  > > Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the
DND
> web
>  > > site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
>  > roughly
>  > > who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is
> probably
>  > > the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
>  > > "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
>  > difference
>  > > between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking
>  > about
>  > > this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
>  > > university/military college or something, but this is very probably
> wrong.
>  > >
>  > > And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too
hard,
> let
>  > > me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be
> roughly
>  > > representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain
why
> the
>  > > armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the
> public
>  > > !.
>  > >
>  > > If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read
all
> the
>  > > posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my
> head.
>  > Am
>  > > waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
>  > >
>  > > Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > Joan
>  > >
> _________________________________________________________________________
>  > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>  > >
>  > > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > > message body.
>  > >
>  >
>  > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > message body.
>  >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 07:50:08 -0000*
That‘s great to hear!!! Next time some paper starts going on and on about 
how demoralized the members of the CF are, you should send a letter to the 
editor, or something, setting them straight.
Believe me, most of the general public - like me - tends to believe what 
they see and hear in the media, and, it‘s true as someone pointed out the 
other day that the press generally prefers bad news stories to good ones, so 
mostly public impressions of the CF are, as you would know better than I, 
mixed at best, I think.
Anyway, it‘s nice to know things are much better they‘ve often been made out 
to be!
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Steven and Tracy" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 00:34:17 -0700
Trust me we do not need to use the food banks!!!!  We have five children and
live quite comfortable and love being military!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
 > I‘m quite prepared to believe it, and am glad to hear it, too.
 >
 > So, then, I guess when the CBC or whomever runs stories about soldiers
 > having to use food banks, etc., it‘s probably wrong, or at least
misleading,
 > huh? Wouldn‘t be the first time...
 >
 > *These* are, by the way, exactly the kinds of misconceptions I hoped to
have
 > corrected by joining the list, and am grateful to those who can be
bothered
 > answering my questions in a civil tone, rather than flaming me or 
shooting
 > me down.
 >
 > Will try to shut up with them for a while though! :
 >
 > - Joan
 >
 >
 > ----Original Message Follows----
 > From: "Steven and Tracy" 
 > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > To: 
 > Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
 > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 22:57:34 -0700
 >
 > Again I would have to say that even privates with families cannot 
complain
 > about the pay!!!  They are the only rank that is also given a Q according
to
 > what their wages areatleast in the first two years  Privates can afford
 > much on what they are paid and what money goes out!!!!
 >
 >
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Jay Digital" 
 > To: 
 > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:38 PM
 > Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
 >
 >
 >  > I don‘t really have the knowledge to give your question a proper 
answer
 > but
 >  > I would like to comment that privates do make decent wages. If you
 > consider
 >  > a private only pays in the neighbourhood of $400 a month for food and
 >  > lodging they have quite a bit of money that really is just surplus
 > income.
 >  > As a recruit you clear about $1000 a month after taxes, room, board,
 >  > etc...etc... That‘s a good amount of money for someone who has no
 > expenses
 >  > and probably no financial obligations. Some of you may point out that
 > some
 >  > privates have families to take care of but I liken the role of private
to
 >  > working in the mailroom for a corporation. It‘s the first rung on a
 > ladder
 >  > that could be quite lucrative. If you have a family and/or a lot of
 >  > financial obligations then perhaps the NCM path isn‘t for you.
 >  >
 >  > All in all I‘d like to say I find the pay to be more than reasonable.
 >  >
 >  > ----- Original Message -----
 >  > From: "Joan O. Arc" 
 >  > To: 
 >  > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:04 PM
 >  > Subject: Pay and ranks
 >  >
 >  >
 >  > > OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest
questions
 >  > yet.
 >  > > Brace yourselves!
 >  > >
 >  > > After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or
 > not,
 >  > > and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts.
are,
 > in
 >  > > fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The
 > McGregors,
 >  > > maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well 
paid
 > and
 >  > so
 >  > > I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
 >  > >
 >  > > Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the
DND
 > web
 >  > > site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
 >  > roughly
 >  > > who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is
 > probably
 >  > > the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
 >  > > "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
 >  > difference
 >  > > between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me 
thinking
 >  > about
 >  > > this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
 >  > > university/military college or something, but this is very probably
 > wrong.
 >  > >
 >  > > And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too
hard,
 > let
 >  > > me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be
 > roughly
 >  > > representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain
why
 > the
 >  > > armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the
 > public
 >  > > !.
 >  > >
 >  > > If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read
all
 > the
 >  > > posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my
 > head.
 >  > Am
 >  > > waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - 
kinda!.
 >  > >
 >  > > Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
 >  > >
 >  > >
 >  > > Joan
 >  > >
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 >  > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 >  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >  > >
 >  > > --------------------------------------------------------
 >  > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 >  > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 >  > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 >  > > message body.
 >  > >
 >  >
 >  > --------------------------------------------------------
 >  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 >  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 >  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 >  > message body.
 >  >
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gary Boake" <g_boake@sympatico.ca>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:48:47 -0500*
Greetings all,
Just been sitting here, lurking, for the past week or so. My son is 
quite happy with his pay. He is a newbie in the navy. Just graduated 
from recruit school in December and was posted to Nanaimo for his 
course. His wife and son were still in Hamilton and thought they would 
be until he possibly got posted to Halifax. His trade is wanted on the 
west coast so they paid for everything, his flight home, his packing and 
moving including car the tickets for all three of them and the stay in 
a motel until their furniture arrived. They are living in the PMQ‘s I 
hope that‘s right and are quite happy with their income. He will, of 
course, get more when he completes his course but for now they seem 
pleased as punch and wondering why he didn‘t join up years ago. 
Gary
Greetings all,
Just been sitting here, lurking, for 
the past week
or so. My son is quite happy with his pay. He is a newbie in the navy. 
Just
graduated from recruit school in December and was posted to Nanaimo for 
his
course. His wife and son were still in Hamilton and thought they would 
be until
he possibly got posted to Halifax. His trade is wanted on the west coast 
so they
paid for everything, his flight home, his packing and moving including 
car the
tickets for all three of them and the stay in a motel until their 
furniture
arrived. They are living in the PMQ‘s I hope that‘s right and are 
quite happy
with their income. He will, of course, get more when he completes his 
course but
for now they seem pleased as punch and wondering why he didn‘t join up 
years
ago. 
Gary
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:38:23 -0700*
Joan, don‘t get defensive.  I‘m not a strong technician.  I just asked why
your address was the same as the one for Burgess.  I guess that its
something that the site administrator will have to solve.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
>
> By the way, Don and others, if the kind of hostility and suspicion to
> which I‘m now being subjected after seven months on the list is indicative
> of the way you think writers with an interest in military issues should be
> treated, might I venture to suggest that it‘s no wonder the CF often
suffers
> from bad press?
>
> And before anyone starts freaking out on me, NO I have never written
> anything based on comments posted to this Board, nor would I do so without
> seeking express permission from its members. Maybe because I‘m not a
> full-time, professional journalist A lot of the writing I do is web site
> content, press releases, junk like that - not very glamorous, or
> interesting., I do have a strong code of ethics to which I adhere. It‘s
not
> just military types who pride themselves on their sense of professional
> honour and reponsibility, you know Though I freely admit many journos are
> scum-sucking pigs, but I ain‘t - I hope - one of them!.
>
> My apologies for any offense the above may give, but this silliness has
gone
> on quite long enough, I think,
>
> Joan
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Donald Schepens" 
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 20:45:29 -0700
>
> Joan, I guess that I have to ask as well, how come your address is the
same
> as Burgess‘s?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 8:04 PM
> Subject: Pay and ranks
>
>
>  > OK, so now I‘m going to ask what will probably be my dumbest questions
> yet.
>  > Brace yourselves!
>  >
>  > After the discussion about pay and whether it affects recruitment or
not,
>  > and my discovery thanks to you all that officer-cadets/2nd Lts. are,
in
>  > fact, reasonably well paid, all things considered, someone The
> McGregors,
>  > maybe? I think pointed out that *privates* aren‘t all that well paid
and
> so
>  > I wasn‘t *completely* off-base when I raised the issue of pay.
>  >
>  > Trying to spare the Board unnecessary dumbness, I just visited the DND
> web
>  > site to see what all the different ranks are and to try to find out
> roughly
>  > who gets paid what. Unfortunately, it led me straight to what is
probably
>  > the most obvious question in the world: What, pray tell, is a
>  > "non-commissioned officer" and how do you become one? It was the
> difference
>  > between being an "officer-cadet" and a "private" that got me thinking
> about
>  > this... I have some vague notion that NCOs haven‘t been to
>  > university/military college or something, but this is very probably
> wrong.
>  >
>  > And, before anyone John - Are you out there? pounces on me too hard,
> let
>  > me point out that you should probably consider my ignorance to be
roughly
>  > representative of the average civilian‘s, which might just explain why
> the
>  > armed forces so often get such a bad rap in the press and with the
public
>  > !.
>  >
>  > If the Board has already covered this topic, apologies. I do read all
> the
>  > posts, but I‘ve gotta confess that many of them sail *way* over my
head.
> Am
>  > waiting for the day someone explains what QL2 means joke - kinda!.
>  >
>  > Thanks in advance for the enlightenment,
>  >
>  >
>  > Joan
>  >
_________________________________________________________________________
>  > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
>  >
>  > --------------------------------------------------------
>  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>  > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>  > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>  > message body.
>  >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 22 Mar 2001 04:51:15 -0000*
More good news! Now I *really* fell like a chump for having raised the pay 
issue!!
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Gary Boake" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: "Army" 
Subject: Re: Pay
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:48:47 -0500
Greetings all,
Just been sitting here, lurking, for the past week or so. My son is quite 
happy with his pay. He is a newbie in the navy. Just graduated from recruit 
school in December and was posted to Nanaimo for his course. His wife and 
son were still in Hamilton and thought they would be until he possibly got 
posted to Halifax. His trade is wanted on the west coast so they paid for 
everything, his flight home, his packing and moving including car the 
tickets for all three of them and the stay in a motel until their furniture 
arrived. They are living in the PMQ‘s I hope that‘s right and are quite 
happy with their income. He will, of course, get more when he completes his 
course but for now they seem pleased as punch and wondering why he didn‘t 
join up years ago.
Gary
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 22 Mar 2001 05:02:29 -0000*
Don,
Re: "Joan, don‘t get defensive.  I‘m not a strong technician.  I just asked
why
your address was the same as the one for Burgess.  I guess that its
something that the site administrator will have to solve.
Don"
Among the several points I made last night - perhaps you missed it - is that 
I doubt my address is "the same as the one for Burgess" If,in fact, the one 
we were given for Burgess also by j-f, as I recall was  correct....
What I do think with apologies to j-f - again, I‘m no techno-wizard is 
that the computer code stuff j-f posted is well-nigh impenetrable.
And further "solutions" are not, I suspect, likely to prove any more 
enlightening, though I could, of course, be wrong.
Nuff said?
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:38:23 -0700
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Thu, 22 Mar 2001 07:28:47 -0700*
Yep.   As I said before, I‘m not a techie.  It is in fact the site
administrator who will decide whether you, or any of the rest of us stay on
the site.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
> Don,
>
> Re: "Joan, don‘t get defensive.  I‘m not a strong technician.  I just
asked
> why
> your address was the same as the one for Burgess.  I guess that its
> something that the site administrator will have to solve.
>
> Don"
>
> Among the several points I made last night - perhaps you missed it - is
that
> I doubt my address is "the same as the one for Burgess" If,in fact, the
one
> we were given for Burgess also by j-f, as I recall was  correct....
>
> What I do think with apologies to j-f - again, I‘m no techno-wizard is
> that the computer code stuff j-f posted is well-nigh impenetrable.
>
> And further "solutions" are not, I suspect, likely to prove any more
> enlightening, though I could, of course, be wrong.
>
> Nuff said?
>
> - Joan
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Donald Schepens" 
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Pay and ranks
> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 16:38:23 -0700
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------

