# Different paths for becoming an officer



## rdinsdal (21 Mar 2012)

Hi all,

Today I stopped by the recruiting office for the Regular Canadian Forces to gain some insight on my future career options.  I will be graduating from university at the end of April and I desire to become an armor or infantry officer (armor preferred).  Unfortunately, the recruiter told me that all DEO positions for armor, infantry and artillery are closed at the moment.  I just turned 23 years old and I don't mind waiting a little so I can strengthen my qualifications by doing some more volunteering and leadership oriented activities.  That being said, if no spots open up, the recruiter told me that I could also join the forces as a non-commissioned member and then transfer to an officer position later; or I could get another bachelor's degree under the ROTP program and become an officer that way.

Does anyone recommend joining as a non-commissioned member or doing ROTP as a back up plan in case there are no DEO openings over the next year or so? Any advice is appreciated. Thank you.


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## Animatronic Fireman (22 Mar 2012)

Have you looked at a Reserve unit to see if they have DEO positions in what you're looking for? You could also consider joining a reserve unit as an NCM in an armour, artillery or infantry position and then apply into the Reg F as an officer when a spot opens up.


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## ModlrMike (22 Mar 2012)

The forecast for combat arms, officer and ncm, is not likely to look rosy for several years yet. You don't say what your degree is in. Perhaps something relative to your education might be more fulfilling.


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## Jhunt (22 Mar 2012)

My husband has done this. He was a reg force member and is now going officer through the UTPNCM program. He did not have a degree so he was sent to university. You would be able to apply to a different program with the same outcome. However it is very competitive and you must be a CPL to apply to any of the programs if you go NCM, so it could take awhile.


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## gcclarke (22 Mar 2012)

Interesting. I'm pretty sure that the forces will only sponsor your education via ROTP  (and possibly UTPNCM although I'm not positive about that one) for a 2nd degree if you're entering a trade which requires a specific type of degree (Engineering trades, Nursing, Social Work, etc) which you don't have. It should be a no-go for the Combat arms if you're a few months away from your degree, as they don't have any degree requirements outside of "have one", and you need to have at least 1.5 years left in your studies to enter the ROTP program.


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## Jhunt (22 Mar 2012)

They do pay 100% of your education for UTPNCM if you are accepted to the program you are either sent to RMC or a civi U. Like I said my family is currently in this process. However the UTPCNM program is for those without degrees. so I'm not sure the process if you already have one. You should try looking in the  Military Admin forum under Occupational and component transfers, there may be more info in that area.? Good luck


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## rdinsdal (22 Mar 2012)

I hadn't considered the reserves.  I will stop by my local recruiting centers and see what they can offer.

ModlrMike,

I have an arts degree, with a major in history.  So nothing specialized.

gcclarke,

The recruiter I talked to seemed to think that ROTP would support a second degree.  I was very clear to him that I wanted in the combat arms and he said that it was a possible course of action.  Perhaps I should stop by and clarify it with them.


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## gcclarke (22 Mar 2012)

rdinsdal said:
			
		

> gcclarke,
> 
> The recruiter I talked to seemed to think that ROTP would support a second degree.  I was very clear to him that I wanted in the combat arms and he said that it was a possible course of action.  Perhaps I should stop by and clarify it with them.



I seemed to have recalled some type of regulation that barred entry to ROTP by someone who had already had a suitable degree, but have been unable to actually find the darn thing. Perhaps I'm imagining things.


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## Trick (22 Mar 2012)

I'm actually in  a similar position and as far as I know, what people are saying is correct- they won't take you for ROTP if you already have a valid degree. What I get from that though is that you can apply to something like an Engineer Officer, and they may be willing to bring you in that way.


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## Allgunzblazing (22 Mar 2012)

rdinsdal: 

I am an applicant for a DEO position. I have also been tempted to join the CF via the NCM route and then work my way up. However, all the staff I have spoken with at the RC advised me not to consider that option. They have all told me to "join a job that you really want to do", that goes for both the field (Armour, Infantry, etc) and rank. 

That being said, the Reserves seem to have a different attitude. The unit recruiters that I spoke with, all said that they prefer to promote their own staff, rather than have people fresh off the streets joining as officers and telling them what to do. (I have spoken with four militia recruiters and they've all said the same thing). 

If you really want to be an officer, then I'd say stick to that route. I'm a law enforcement officer in my present job. I have a graduate degree, however if I continue here till retirement, I would like to remain a front-line staff and not ever put in for a promotion - a "career corporal" as  they say in the Forces. 

All the best to you in what whatever route you decide to pursue.


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## Wookilar (22 Mar 2012)

Yes, there are a few ways to get your Queen's Commission.

One way is to start as an ncm and either go:

1) special commissioning (you already have a degree);
2) UTPNCM (the CF sends you to get a degree);
3) commission from the ranks (you might get a degree....later...sometime...maybe), and
4) continuing education officer training plan (you get a degree within 10 years of working full time).

None of these avenues are guaranteed. They all are extremely competitive and the numbers granted fluctuate greatly year to year, trade to trade.

If you want to be an officer, be an officer. Do not "settle" for something else that _may_ get you there in 16 years (the year I was accepted as a UT, our senior guy had 16 years in, our jnr had 10).

Wook


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## rdinsdal (22 Mar 2012)

Thank you for the replies everyone.  So by the sounds of it, my best bet is probably just to wait it out an try to enter DEO, hoping that positions open up at some point in the future.  Have I got that right? Since ROTP doesn't seem to be an option and the NCM route could end up taking longer (and is not really the path I wish to take, if at all possible).

So how about the reserves? If I were an officer in the reserves, or even an NCM, would it be possible to transfer into the regulars eventually? I am going to stop by the RC tomorrow and try and get this figured out.


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## dimsum (22 Mar 2012)

rdinsdal said:
			
		

> So how about the reserves? If I were an officer in the reserves, or even an NCM, would it be possible to transfer into the regulars eventually? I am going to stop the RC tomorrow and try and get this figured out.



Broadly speaking, yes it is possible.  However, some of the training may not be transferrable, and it depends on how many Component Transfers the Reg F is looking for that year.  So, in short, it's possible but nowhere near a guaranteed thing.


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## rdinsdal (23 Mar 2012)

I have made my decision.  I will stick to my guns and wait it out until applications open up for armor officers or infantry officers.  It is what I am really determined to do and I feel in the long run it is the best course of action.  So in the mean time, I will be aiming to strengthen my qualifications.  Thank you for the input everyone.


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## Trick (23 Mar 2012)

As far as I understand it they're currently accepting applications for Infantry, Armour, and Artillery Officers. This doesn't necessarily mean that positions will be "open" in April, but I'd at least try to get the online portion out of the way ASAP if you can. I'm not sure if you can apply for DEO until you actually have graduate though- someone else would have to answer that.


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## MdB (23 Mar 2012)

You can apply DEO 6 months prior to the university degree completion. It is understood that the applicant would complete his/her degree succesfully and it would become a condition to be eligible to join the CFs.

Also, I don't have the data ATT, but it can be entirely possible that the RC accepts applications for these trades, but would not process it with the standard RVs (CFAT, medical, etc...) IOT have a certain amount of applications already filed in.

Last, what path to take is really a matter of the applicant objectives and situation. Considering that the best you can do to prepare for an eventually application is to develop trade related skills and specificaly leadership skills for officer trades. A course of action is in the personal activities (school, sports, cadets, etc...), another is to join the Reserve. One has to keep in mind that the Reserve is still a good entry to the Reg F, but that it can take a long time to process because A LOT of requests for Component Transfer are already in, but also that there's a limited number of positions by trade and by year. It's still a case by case approach and some file can be quickly processed, but I would not count on that from the start. Also, the trade position available in a CT has nothing to do with the recruitment numbers.


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## rdinsdal (23 Mar 2012)

MdB said:
			
		

> You can apply DEO 6 months prior to the university degree completion. It is understood that the applicant would complete his/her degree succesfully and it would become a condition to be eligible to join the CFs.
> 
> Also, I don't have the data ATT, but it can be entirely possible that the RC accepts applications for these trades, but would not process it with the standard RVs (CFAT, medical, etc...) IOT have a certain amount of applications already filed in.
> 
> Last, what path to take is really a matter of the applicant objectives and situation. Considering that the best you can do to prepare for an eventually application is to develop trade related skills and specificaly leadership skills for officer trades. A course of action is in the personal activities (school, sports, cadets, etc...), another is to join the Reserve. One has to keep in mind that the Reserve is still a good entry to the Reg F, but that it can take a long time to process because A LOT of requests for Component Transfer are already in, but also that there's a limited number of positions by trade and by year. It's still a case by case approach and some file can be quickly processed, but I would not count on that from the start. Also, the trade position available in a CT has nothing to do with the recruitment numbers.



My understanding is that you can apply before completing a degree, but that it will not be processed until the completion of that degree is confirmed.  

Thanks for the information about the reserves.  That is my chief concern and the reason why I have opted for the moment not to join them.  I don't wish to take the chance that a transfer may take a long time.  Instead, after my degree, I am planning on taking some French classes to improve my second-language skills, volunteering at the local museum (Loyal Edmonton Regiment) and joining a soccer team (I played lots in high school and loved it).  In addition to that I already have a full time job lined up to help pay off my student loans and a fairly rigorous exercise program to improve my conditioning.  So hopefully in a year or three some positions will open up for DEO in the combat arms and I will have a competitive resume.  That is the plan anyway.  Of course, comments are welcome.


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## matthew1786 (24 Mar 2012)

I do not have a clue on how the selection* actually* works for DEO. 

Logically speaking though, I can only assume that they accept people from DEO if the number of positions have not been entirely filled with ROTP applicants. Or, of course, if they don't have 3-4 years to wait for someone to fill a position that just opened up and they need to fill said position as soon as possible; DEO seems to fit this case. I don't really understand how a trade can be considered open, but not open for DEO. There must be something internal going on that we don't know about. 

So if I were you, I would contact your local recruiting centre on a monthly basis to inquire for any open trades in which you are interested in applying (via DEO)!  :2c:

Cheers.


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## MdB (24 Mar 2012)

According to DAOD 5002-2, Direct Entry Officer Plan - Regular Force:


> The direct entry officer (DEO) plan is an entry level plan which:
> 
> is intended to enrol applicants who:
> 
> ...



When the CFs draft the production plan and intake numbers, they take into account needs for each trade in order to keep a good succession plan (having the right number of officers at a specified rank over the coming years) and give their numbers to CMP who in turn task RMC and the CF Recruiting Group to select the right person for the right job and enrol a certain amount by trade and entry plan. There's a selection to ensure that people will be successful on trade's training, perform in a given trade, and will stay in their job.


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## siuto (15 May 2012)

I was talking to them today and amour officer is open now (not sure about infantry), no openings for artillery yet.


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## PuckChaser (15 May 2012)

siuto said:
			
		

> amour officer is open now



Love officer is accepting applications? Sign me up.


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## estoguy (15 May 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Love officer is accepting applications? Sign me up.



That must be a new position! I'd sign up for that!  :nod:


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## dangles (15 May 2012)

Hey everyone...I will be completing my degree in May of next year, and in the mean time I expect to be a Pte. at my local infantry reserve unit [barring this summer's DP1 goes as planned]. How would I go about becoming an officer in my unit once my degree is completed? I was told in the past that my unit only accepts people to become officer's who are already in the ncm ranks...so I am wondering what process I'd have to go through?

Furthermore, if I was a Pte., or even waited it out until I was a Cpl, do you guys have any idea if any of the courses I took would be credited on my transfer to officer? I'm assuming that I would probably only get credited for BMQ in replace of BMOQ, but if anyone has other ideas please let me know.


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## bridges (15 May 2012)

I spent 10 years as an NCM, before someone decided I had 'officer-like qualities' and should be commissioned from the ranks (CFR).  I think it started when I lost an important document and then found it in my own in-box.     Anyway, that time as an NCM was valuable education & experience that I couldn't have gained any other way, and frankly I wouldn't have been ready before that point.   

That said, everyone's path is different.   Wookilar has a good point - if you think it's right for you now, pursue it now.   Read the rest of this thread again, and talk to the recruiting officer both at your unit and at the nearest CFRC if there is one.   Good luck.


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## siuto (15 May 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Love officer is accepting applications? Sign me up.



LOL. It's armour officer. I'm sure a little bit more love in the army won't hurt (as long it's not towards the enemies)


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## Shamrock (15 May 2012)

estoguy said:
			
		

> That must be a new position! I'd sign up for that!  :nod:



You say that now, but wait until you see what you have to do with a HESH round.


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## estoguy (16 May 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> You say that now, but wait until you see what you have to do with a HESH round.





Surely you're not serious? LOL


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## aesop081 (16 May 2012)

estoguy said:
			
		

> Surely you're not serious? LOL



If you think that's bad, just imagine what you have to do with a APFSDS.


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## daftandbarmy (16 May 2012)

I got picked up for a commission through this program. The fire team partner they matched me up with was awesome but there was a real snake in the syndicate who bladed us... ;D


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## estoguy (17 May 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If you think that's bad, just imagine what you have to do with a APFSDS.



  YIKES! LOL

For those who may not be getting the lingo... here's an example! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M829


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## MdB (28 May 2012)

FYI, infantry and armor officer positions are available.


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## ARMY_101 (24 Jun 2013)

Wookilar said:
			
		

> Yes, there are a few ways to get your Queen's Commission.
> 
> One way is to start as an ncm and either go:
> 
> ...



Are these the *only* avenues for commissioning from an NCM?


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## dimsum (25 Jun 2013)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Are these the *only* avenues for commissioning from an NCM?



Yes, and depending on numbers some of them won't be available (or be full).


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## Canadian.Trucker (25 Jun 2013)

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> That being said, the Reserves seem to have a different attitude. The unit recruiters that I spoke with, all said that they prefer to promote their own staff, rather than have people fresh off the streets joining as officers and telling them what to do. (I have spoken with four militia recruiters and they've all said the same thing).


This seems very odd to me.  I know of some units that do have a preference for CFR's because the unit feels that it gives some much needed growing/learning time to a potential Officer, but I have never had the feeling that this is a total PRes mentality.  Very odd indeed, especially your last statement about "telling them what to do".



			
				estoguy said:
			
		

> Surely you're not serious? LOL


Yes, and don't call me Shirley.  (airplane 2 reference)


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