# The gulf war



## Infantree (12 Aug 2006)

Hi i was wondering if anyone could tell me the Canadian infantry units that served in the gulf during 1990 and 1991. I was on wikipedia and it said that a few companies from RCR served. But some of you said not to always trust that site. I know we sent some fighters over there to.  So any info would be great.

Thanks


----------



## paracowboy (12 Aug 2006)

look up Operation SCALPEL on the official site. Should give you everything you need. And here's a hint: there are some white-painted rocks in the Saudi desert. ;D


----------



## Infantree (12 Aug 2006)

CANADA        -   2 destroyers, 12 C-130 planes, 24 CF-18 
                            bombers, 4500 troops,  Field Hospital (1 
                           Canadian Field Hospital) 


Now i need to find the units. Ill reply with them.


----------



## JBP (12 Aug 2006)

I wonder if we could field 4500 troops now... Effectively, I think we could, but for how long???

....


----------



## Mike Baker (12 Aug 2006)

My friends father was at the gulf war. He was also taken hostage in Bosnia back when all that was going on in the Balkins.


----------



## Infanteer (12 Aug 2006)

Infantry said:
			
		

> 4500 troops



Better try again; we did not deploy 4500 troops to the Gulf.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (12 Aug 2006)

Some info here regarding numbers

Canadian Persian Gulf Cohort Study Report: Summary
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/information/engraph/ShortGWV_e.asp


> IRAQ INVADED KUWAIT on August 2, 1990, marking the beginning of the Gulf and Kuwait War of 1990-1991. More than 5,100 Canadian military personnel were deployed to the Persian Gulf region between August 1990 and October 1991.
> 
> Canada's contribution consisted principally of a headquarters, a naval task force, an air task group, a field hospital, two infantry companies and a security platoon. About 2,200 Canadian Force members were present during the time of actual conflict (January and February, 1991)



Some more numbers about the Gulf and Kuwait Medal, but they do not seem to match the above.  (...close enough for government work?)
http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dhh/honours_awards/engraph/honour_awards_e.asp?cat=3&Q_ID=32


> ...if the person served a minimum of 30 cumulative days in theatre (between 02 August 1990 and 27 June 1991), on operations to defend against aggression and to liberate Kuwait qualify for the Medal...
> 
> Those who served for one day, or more in the theatre of operations, during actual hostilities (16 January 1991 to 03 March 1991) were awarded the Medal and bar....
> 
> 4,109 medals have been issued, including 3,604 with the bar.


----------



## geo (12 Aug 2006)

Infantry,
Some Cdn were on exchange programs with UK, US & French units that were deployed to Saudi / Kuwait BUT other than that, Cdn Cbt arms troops did not, as organised formations, participate in offensive ops during GW1.


----------



## Infanteer (12 Aug 2006)

Here's the site; 2700 peak.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=957


----------



## Michael OLeary (12 Aug 2006)

See also:

The Royal Canadian Regiment - Operations Since 1945


----------



## Infantree (12 Aug 2006)

So only 2 companies participated in the gulf ground war. That's BS. We should have deployed at least a regiment, or even a brigade.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Operation_Desert_Storm.jpg

I guess we fall under COALATION


----------



## Michael OLeary (12 Aug 2006)

More here:

The Royal Canadian Regiment and the Peacemaking Era


----------



## Infantree (12 Aug 2006)

Did the canadian infantry even participate in any combat?


----------



## George Wallace (12 Aug 2006)

I guess you are not paying any heed to the information given to you.  Why don't you read it and find out?


----------



## Infantree (12 Aug 2006)

We guarded the air base. I was reading the post 15 years today, and someone said something about the deploying of 4CMBG. How come this never happined. Why didn't the government put us in combat.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (12 Aug 2006)

You left out the AOR HMCS Protectuer.


----------



## Infantree (12 Aug 2006)

AOR??? ???


----------



## Infantree (12 Aug 2006)

Speaking of 4CMBG, what infantry regiment was in it. Ive searched all over the internet and get nothing.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (12 Aug 2006)

Naval acronym...look it up


----------



## paracowboy (12 Aug 2006)

Infantry said:
			
		

> Speaking of 4CMBG, what infantry regiment was in it. Ive searched all over the internet and get nothing.


uuuhhh, scroll up the goddamn thread!


----------



## vonGarvin (12 Aug 2006)

At the time, the government was seriously considering sending 4 CMBG (or other units, but most likely them) to a ground combat role in Iraq in 1990/91.  The government was a conservative gov't under Mulroney (father of the dude on Canadian Idol!).  At that time, a dove amongst the hawks said publically that "our armed forces aren't designed for that kind of combat".  Naturally it was Joe Clark, who had totally forgottten that 4 CMBG was at that time in Germany, fully manned to roughly 110% of authorised strength and "designed" to fend of wave after wave of Soviet Tank Divisions!  I think that he thought that the Iraqi army was somehow BETTER than the Soviet forces in the former German Democratic Republic!!!!!!  
That's why we were not employed in an offensive ground role.
Having said all that, our navy and air force did stellar jobs over there.
4 CMBG:
3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment
1st Battalion, the Royal 22nd Regiment
Royal Canadian Dragoons (armoured)
1st Regiment, Royal Canadian Horse Artillery
4th Combat Engineer Regiment
4 Service Battalion
444 Helicopter Squadron
Did I miss anything guys?


----------



## Infantree (12 Aug 2006)

I'm really confused because, RCR is part of 2CMBG and the van doos are part of 5 CMBG, How could they be part of 4CMBG too. It must of been different back then i guess. I think its stupid that one guy could pursue the government not to send a combat brigade.


----------



## vonGarvin (12 Aug 2006)

OK, each regiment has several battalions.  The RCR has four: three in the regular force, one in the reserve force.
In 1990, 1st Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment was in London Ontario, and was part of the Special Service Force (forerunner to 2 CMBG)
2nd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment was in Gagetown, NB, and was part of 5e Groupe Brigade Mecanisee du Canada
3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment was in Baden Söllingen, Federal Republic of Germany, part of 4th Canadian Mechanised Brigade.
4th Battlion, The Royal Canadian Regiment was in London Ontario and Stratford, Ontario, and was part of London Militia District.
1 PPCLI was in Calgary, 2 PPCLI was in Winnipeg and 3 PPCLI was in Victoria, all part of 1st Canadian Brigade Group.  There never was, and still isn't today, a reserve component to the PPCLI
1 R22eR was in Lahr, Germany, part of 4 CMBG
2 and 3 R22eR were in Quebec Province, one at BFC Valcartier and the other in Quebec City.  I can't remember which was where.  4 R22eR was in Quebec as well, but I'm not sure where, exactly.  Google it, and the truth shall set you free

1 RCHA is currently in Shilo, Manitoba
4 Service Battalion no longer exits, and neither do 4 CER or 444 squadron
1 R22eR was in 4 CMBG for about as long as 4 CMBG was in existence.  The other infantry battalion was at one time 3rd Mechanised Commando, The Canadian Airborne Regiment, then 3 RCR, then 2 PPCLI, then 3 RCR again.  Don't ask me for the dates, I can't remember them off hand.


----------



## Infantree (12 Aug 2006)

Anyone on this site that was in the gulf war. Regardless of army. US,UK,Canadian,France etc.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Aug 2006)

Infantry said:
			
		

> Anyone on this site that was in the gulf war. Regardless of army. US,UK,Canadian,France etc.



Is that a question?  ???


----------



## Blakey (12 Aug 2006)

I think I can shed a little light on this topic:
I can unequivocally say that, Mike Coy from the Third Battalion of The RCR, participated in this "Operation". The first name we went under as OPERATION SCIMITAR, then it was changed to OPERATION FRICTION. We were there from Oct to Dec '90 and the Vandoos replaced us.

I was a Pte. and my primary role was AVGP Driver.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (12 Aug 2006)

the proof is in the medal


----------



## Blakey (12 Aug 2006)

DueyT said:
			
		

> the proof is in the medal


Proof of what?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (12 Aug 2006)

That you were there silly.


----------



## Blakey (13 Aug 2006)

DueyT said:
			
		

> That you were there silly.


Will a photo of my _well worn_ T be enough?  ;D

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a131/shutterbug666/PICT0093.jpg


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (13 Aug 2006)

That first pic is smaller then a penny.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (13 Aug 2006)

Canadian participation has been well documented both online and in literature, Infantry. I am not sure why you are having difficulty finding out this information....


----------



## Blakey (13 Aug 2006)

DueyT said:
			
		

> That first pic is smaller then a penny.


oops, wrong size
This is the one 
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a131/shutterbug666/PICT0092.jpg


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (13 Aug 2006)

same size, I guess that course the army sent you on was a waste  >


----------



## Blakey (13 Aug 2006)

DueyT said:
			
		

> same size, I guess that course the army sent you on was a waste  >


Grrrrr, New PC, no Photochop on itor Imaging editing software. Photobucket resized...
http://forums.army.ca/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=23624


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (13 Aug 2006)

Damn your ugly.  You have have a flash for a head.


----------



## Centurian1985 (13 Aug 2006)

Infantry said:
			
		

> So only 2 companies participated in the gulf ground war. That's BS. We should have deployed at least a regiment, or even a brigade.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Operation_Desert_Storm.jpg



The two RCR companies were bored out of their minds doing guard duty and primary airfield defence force for the air force components in Qatar.  Lots of other Canadians in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia.  Closest we got to action was some Engineers in Kuwait after the Iraqis pulled out checking for boobytraps and mines.   

Oh wait, we had a CF-18 try to take out an Iraqi merchant vessel with an AIM-9.  That was worth a laugh.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (13 Aug 2006)

von Garvin said:
			
		

> At the time, the government was seriously considering sending 4 CMBG (or other units, but most likely them) to a ground combat role in Iraq in 1990/91.  ....
> 4 CMBG:
> 3rd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment
> 1st Battalion, the Royal 22nd Regiment
> ...


4 HQ & Sigs Squadron
4 Field Ambulance - deployed to Ramstein AFB during the war in support of US medevac ops and to Southern Turkey/Northern Iraq (Kurdistan) afterwards for refugee ops
4 Military Police Platoon


----------



## Fdtrucker (13 Aug 2006)

In 1990 the RCD's were in Petawawa under the SSF and the 8th Canadian Hussars were part of 4 CMBG.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (13 Aug 2006)

> Oh wait, we had a CF-18 try to take out an Iraqi merchant vessel with an AIM-9.  That was worth a laugh.



Actually is it was Iraqi navy patrol boat and they fired two AIM7s at it and because they could not get a radar lock on it with the Sparrows they strafed it causing heavy damage. Yes I am sure it was worth a laugh to those pilots that were taking return fire from the FPB. :


----------



## Centurian1985 (13 Aug 2006)

von Garvin said:
			
		

> At the time, the government was seriously considering sending 4 CMBG (or other units, but most likely them) to a ground combat role in Iraq in 1990/91.  The government was a conservative gov't under Mulroney (father of the dude on Canadian Idol!).  At that time, a dove amongst the hawks said publically that "our armed forces aren't designed for that kind of combat".  Naturally it was Joe Clark, who had totally forgottten that 4 CMBG was at that time in Germany, fully manned to roughly 110% of authorised strength and "designed" to fend of wave after wave of Soviet Tank Divisions!  I think that he thought that the Iraqi army was somehow BETTER than the Soviet forces in the former German Democratic Republic!!!!!!



The information at my end at the time (working with the air force) made no mention of any plans for a deployment of 4 CMBG, just CF-18's and Navy.  The reasons for or against a deployment of infantry can be debated ad nauseum (although IMHO they should have).  

However, I am interested in this talk that 4 CMBG was considered for deployment during the 1990/1991 conflict.  First Ive heard of it was reading it here.  Is this an urban myth grown out of 4 CMBG HQ or NDHQ who hoped  Infantry would get deployed, or was the PM and MND actually considering  a CMBG deployment?


----------



## Centurian1985 (13 Aug 2006)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Actually is it was Iraqi navy patrol boat and they fired two AIM7s at it and because they could not get a radar lock on it with the Sparrows they strafed it causing heavy damage. Yes I am sure it was worth a laugh to those pilots that were taking return fire from the FPB. :



You're probably right about the AIM-7.  However, are you certain it was an FPB? If so I would like to see the source.  Otherwise, we may be talking two different incidents here.


----------



## Gunner (13 Aug 2006)

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> The information at my end at the time (working with the air force) made no mention of any plans for a deployment of 4 CMBG, just CF-18's and Navy.  The reasons for or against a deployment of infantry can be debated ad nauseum (although IMHO they should have).
> 
> However, I am interested in this talk that 4 CMBG was considered for deployment during the 1990/1991 conflict.  First Ive heard of it was reading it here.  Is this an urban myth grown out of 4 CMBG HQ or NDHQ who hoped  Infantry would get deployed, or was the PM and MND actually considering  a CMBG deployment?



It was termed Op BROADSWORD.  

The Persian Gulf (Arabian Gulf) War, 1990-1991 - A ground force contingency plan, Operation BROADSWORD, was then formulated. BROADSWORD was to consist of an independent Brigade Group based on 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade in Germany, but with substantial augmentation from 5 GBC and 1 CBG in Canada.

Basically, we weren't ready for a modern fight in Europe and we weren't ready for a modern fight in the Persian Gulf.  

Dr Sean Maloney goes into detail on why Canada did not deploy a brigade:

http://www.queensu.ca/cir/pdf/Martello24.pdf



> There was no Canadian ground combat component in DESERT SHIELD or DESERT STORM, though one was planned.  Operation BROADSWORD was designed to deploy an enhanced 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group to Saudi Arabia where it was to operate as part of VII(US) Corps.  Several factors conspired to prevent the BROADSWORD deployment.  Most of these were related to the Canadian Forces' stagnant ability to plan and execute an expeditionary operation of greater than company or battalion size as opposed to specific political opposition to fighting on the ground.  Conditions as the Canadian Forces was to preparing for a war against the Warsaw Pact in the NATO Central Region, there was only a nascent joint planning structure, little strategic lift, no mobilization capability for sustainment and high expectations for revitalization of several equipment programs cancelled after the 1989 budgetary reassessment by the Mulroney government.  Scaremongering casualty predictions based on outdated estimate processes were used by a minority of bureaucrats within DND who opposed ground operations in the mistaken belief that it would compromise Canada's (mythical) peacekeeping image or tradition.  All of this added to the inability of the elected officials to make a timely decision on deployment doomed Op BROADSWORD.


----------



## Blakey (13 Aug 2006)

> [Their nicknames are D.W. and Hillbilly, two modest Canadian CF-18 fighter pilots stationed in Qatar. Tonight they embark on a historic assignment – for the first time since the Korean War Canadian forces will fire offensively in combat. In this television report, CBC cameras follow the crews of D.W. and Hillbilly as they prepare for their mission and as they return after successfully hitting an Iraqi ship. /quote]
> 
> http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-593-3122/conflict_war/gulf_war/clip11


----------



## Old Sweat (13 Aug 2006)

Having served in J3 Plans during the Gulf War, I fully support the assessment by Sean Maloney posted by Gunner. The casualty estimate envisaged 4 CMBG including the NSE and the reinforcement pool in theatre taking 150% casualties in thirty days, which failed both the common sense test and the lessons of history. Basically a force of under ten thousand was supposed to suffer more casualties that did either the Canadian Corps at Passchendale or First Canadian Army in Normandy. Given the number of wobbly people involved in the staffing of Broadsword - one officer from the 'army floor' told me we shouldn't send any troops because there would be casualties - it became a convenient refuge for their fears.


----------



## Gunner (13 Aug 2006)

Old Sweat, didn't they use the battle casualty estimates used in Corps '86 and a healthy additional top up "just in case"?


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (13 Aug 2006)

Thanks for the source PB&J.

Here is another:
http://es.rice.edu/projects/Poli378/Gulf/gwtxt_ch7.html

Scroll down to you get to the Battle of Bubiyan although in this one it makes no mention of the AIM7s fired.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (13 Aug 2006)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> ... The casualty estimate envisaged 4 CMBG including the NSE and the reinforcement pool in theatre taking 150% casualties in thirty days, which failed both the common sense test and the lessons of history...  it became a convenient refuge for their fears.



Agreed.  However from the US medical side, their biggest fear was of Iraq using chem/bio weapons  (I don't recall us commonly using the term WMDs back then) once the ground phase started.  Estimates of up to 8000 per day were being used for planning purposes.   During the air campaign, it seemed that US medical facilities were evacing out of theatre any and all patients who could not be immediately returned to full duty in order to have available space if the worst happened. Ramstein/Landstuhl was the primary destination for patients evacuated from the theatre.  In the Aeromedical Staging Facility there, we were seeing things like sprained ankles, infected in-grown toenails, and skin conditions  in addition to patients who would normally require hospitalization.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo (13 Aug 2006)

I suppose we took counsel of our fears.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.


----------



## Old Sweat (13 Aug 2006)

Gunner

The casualty estimate was based on the NATO rate for troops in contact in heavy fighting for the whole thirty day period, in other words infantry assaulting heavily defended positions and the like. The rationale was that the NBCW threat made everyone in theatre equally at risk. However no estimate was made of the ability of the Iraquis to actually saturate the theatre with NBC devices.


----------



## Centurian1985 (14 Aug 2006)

> Their nicknames are D.W. and Hillbilly, two modest Canadian CF-18 fighter pilots stationed in Qatar. Tonight they embark on a historic assignment – for the first time since the Korean War Canadian forces will fire offensively in combat. In this television report, CBC cameras follow the crews of D.W. and Hillbilly as they prepare for their mission and as they return after successfully hitting an Iraqi ship.



Excellent video, didnt know that was around.  It would appear that this is a 'counter-myth' out there, as many AF types believed that a merchant vessel was attacked, not a patrol boat.  It appears that the target of the mission was indeed a patrol boat.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (14 Aug 2006)

Your belief it was a merchant vessel and not a patrol boat was the first I heard it along those lines.


----------



## vonGarvin (14 Aug 2006)

Fdtrucker said:
			
		

> In 1990 the RCD's were in Petawawa under the SSF and the 8th Canadian Hussars were part of 4 CMBG.


You are in fact correct.  RCDs (less "C" Sqn) were in Pet, C Sqn in Gagetown.


----------



## Red 6 (19 Aug 2006)

I was interested to read the posts about possible casualties in Desert Storm. My unit in Desert Storm (1st Infantry Division) had the G-Day mission of forcing the breach in the Iraqi main defensive belt in the Neutral Zone. We rehearsed and drilled our G-Day mission for a month, and had it completely memorized. When we went to rock walks and so forth, we'd always ask what our follow-on mission was going to be. The answer was always the same, "It's an 'on order' mission." Well, the rumors flew that casualties would be so heavy, there wouldn't be enough of us for any follow-on missions. 

Needless to say, the reality was completely the opposite. The Iraqi front-line division in our sector (the 25th Iraqi ID) had been heavily attritted from he aerial campaign and the pre-assault arty prep. Once we cleared the forward defense, the whole desert was covered with little groups of Iraqis with surrender chits. The little chits, pieces of paper with a cartoon of an Iraqi surrendering to the coalition with some Arabic writing on it, were blowing around the desert everywhere. We collected them and found out they made way better butt-wiping material than the TP in MRE's. Every time I see one on E-Bay, I always wonder how it could be real, since 99% of the surrender chits ended up buried in a cat hole.


----------



## Redeye (20 Aug 2006)

von Garvin said:
			
		

> 1 PPCLI was in Calgary, 2 PPCLI was in Winnipeg and 3 PPCLI was in Victoria, all part of 1st Canadian Brigade Group.  There never was, and still isn't today, a reserve component to the PPCLI



Is not the Loyal Edmonton Regiment at least on paper 4VP - or was it at one time?


----------



## vonGarvin (20 Aug 2006)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Is not the Loyal Edmonton Regiment at least on paper 4VP - or was it at one time?


I'm a rockpainter, through and through, and though the Loyal Eddies have an "affiliation" with the PPCLI, they have never worn the PPCLI capbadge.


----------



## geo (20 Aug 2006)

While the Loyal Eddies are designated 4th Bn PPCLI, and someone else is the 4th RCR.... the R22R went about it a different way..... and lost the 5th thanks to methods they adopted.... When the Fusiliers du St Laurent were advised that they would have to cease using their name... they told the R22R to go whistle dixie.


----------



## Redeye (20 Aug 2006)

So that's why there's a 4e R 22e R and a 6e R 22e R (I can't remember the names of the Regiments that have the designation), but no 5th.  As vonGarvin posted - 4 RCR is just that.  While the Loyal Eddies have never worn the PPCLI cap badge, they are in some things I found referred to as 4 PPCLI - anyone know why/how that came about?


----------



## Gunner (20 Aug 2006)

http://www.ler.ab.ca/docs/ledmnr.pdf#search=%224%20PPCLI%20history%22

A short history of the LER.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (20 Aug 2006)

4RCR is the result of the re-badging of The London and Oxford Fusiliers who were first designated an a RCR battalion in 1958 (as the 3rd Bn) but did not lose the secondary designation of The London and Oxford Fusilers until 1989. The former arrangement is in contrast to the Loyal Edmonton Regiment who carry the 4th PPCLI designation as the secondary title. The 4th and 6th Bn of the R22R carry their original regimental name as secondary titles (Châteuguay and Ste.Hyacinthe) but wear the R22R cap badge. The former 5th Bn is Les Fusilers du St. Laurent. All sourced from www.regiments.org


----------



## geo (20 Aug 2006)

from having dealt with members from the Fus de St L..... the 5th was designated and offered but - rejected.


----------

