# Turkish, Greek jets dogfight over Aegean Sea- Dec.29, 2015



## CougarKing (29 Dec 2015)

How can these 2 Med. Sea rivals continue to be NATO partners?

Aviationist



> *TURKISH AND GREEK FIGHTERS ENGAGE IN DOGFIGHT OVER THE AEGEAN SEA*
> Dec 30 2015 -
> ACCORDING TO GREEK MEDIA OUTLETS, GREEK AND TURKISH JETS ENGAGED IN A BRIEF DOGFIGHT OVER THE AEGEAN SEA AFTER TURKISH AIRCRAFT VIOLATED GREEK AIRSPACE “SEVERAL TIMES.”
> As we already explained in the aftermath of the Russian Su-24 shootdown by a Turkish Air Force (TuAF) F-16 over the Syria-Turkey border last month, the skies surrounding the disputed islands of the Aegean Sea are often the theater of incidents between the HAF (Hellenic Air Force) and the TuAF.
> ...


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## CBH99 (30 Dec 2015)

I realize I might get flamed for this, so I apologize to anybody I may offend beforehand...

But can we please, PLEASE kick Turkey out of NATO?  Like pretty please, with a cherry on top?

As someone who lived in that part of the world for the better part of a year (although this was a few years back), I can't write out a complete list of the reasons why.  So, just the highlights - in my own opinion:

1.  Shot down a Russian aircraft under very suspicious circumstances
2.  More likely than not assassinated an American journalist who ran a story on the relationship between Turkey leadership & ISIS
3.  Becoming more and more of a dictatorship every day  (I can say this from direct personal experience)
4.  Is currently bombing Kurdish militia, which is one of the only militia groups in the region to be effectively fighting ISIS

The list continues...but I'll end it there for now.

Turkey can be an ally for both militarily and strategic reasons, but not necessarily a member of NATO.  Under the current leadership, Turkey does not reflect the same values that NATO was founded on - and I seriously doubt any NATO member wants to get involved in an Article 5 situation because of some dumb s**t Turkey decides to pull.

Saudi Arabia is an ally for both militarily and strategic reasons, but not a member of NATO.  They are extremely well equipped militarily, and a hub of stability in the region - and for those reasons (amongst others), they are an ally.  I honestly believe Turkey should be in the same boat.

P.S.  Doesn't Turkey have a raging civil war right next door, a massive refugee situation to deal with, and the spread of an extremely dangerous extremist organization both outside and now inside it's borders?  What's the point of dicking around with a fellow NATO member, when those resources could probably be better spent elsewhere?


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## jollyjacktar (30 Dec 2015)

I too would like to see them kicked out.  I disagree with their and SA as allies. I think they're more like Pakistan as an ally, essentially not.  I don't  trust or really like either or them, to be honest.


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## Jarnhamar (30 Dec 2015)

Turkey is turning into a bunch of assholes and should be kicked from NATO. They're not only supporting ISIS but blatantly profiting from them. ISIS is making what, 40 million or 80 million a month off them? Can't see that money funding attacks against us in our homes in the future  :


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Dec 2015)

Well we could possibly suspend the relationship, only coming to their aid for a large scale invasion.


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## ringo (30 Dec 2015)

I would like to see Turkey expelled from NATO as well, but if they are expelled they will certainly cozy up to Russia and NATO will lose control of Black Sea strait's.


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Dec 2015)

More like cozy up to China, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Russia and Turkey have history going back a long time.


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## ballz (30 Dec 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I too would like to see them kicked out.  I disagree with their and SA as allies. I think they're more like Pakistan as an ally, essentially not.  I don't  trust or really like either or them, to be honest.



Agreed to the fullest.


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## Ostrozac (30 Dec 2015)

ringo said:
			
		

> I would like to see Turkey expelled from NATO as well, but if they are expelled they will certainly cozy up to Russia and NATO will lose control of Black Sea strait's.



Isn't the North Atlantic Treaty pretty clear that a member can't be expelled, and that the only way to leave the club is to resign? At least that's how I read the treaty.

And this isn't the first time that our two favourite allies have gotten frisky -- 1974 in Cyprus was very close to a full-scale Greece-Turkey shooting war, instead of the limited regional war that we got.


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## Underway (30 Dec 2015)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> 1.  Shot down a Russian aircraft under very suspicious circumstances
> 2.  More likely than not assassinated an American journalist who ran a story on the relationship between Turkey leadership & ISIS
> 3.  Becoming more and more of a dictatorship every day  (I can say this from direct personal experience)
> 4.  Is currently bombing Kurdish militia, which is one of the only militia groups in the region to be effectively fighting ISIS
> ...



If this is the type of criteria that gets you kicked out of NATO then the US, France and the UK would have been kicked out a loooooooong time ago.  Reality Check.  NATO is not populated by some moral bunch of high ground holier than thou's.  That's the UN's job   :.  NATO is a *geopolitical alliance* aimed at containing the Soviet Union and now Russia which is why its under pressure to find a new job... so now its keeping the world balance of power firmly tilted in the West's favour (which no one wants to talk about).  Nobody cares about how bad member states governments are, it's basically irrelevant despite what it might say in the NATO charter.  



> The treaty committed each member to share the risk, responsibilities and benefits of collective security and required them not to enter into any international commitments that conflicted with the Treaty. It also committed them to the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and stated that NATO members formed a unique community of values committed to the principles of individual liberty, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.



The UN charter says much the same thing but hey, Saudi Arabia can be head of the human rights council if they want...


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## Ludoc (31 Dec 2015)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Under the current leadership, Turkey does not reflect the same values that NATO was founded on



What values are those? Containing and fighting Russians? They seem to be just about the only ones in NATO even trying to stand up to Russia anymore. The rest of us are too busy writing sad letters to Putin, telling him how sad we are that he is rolling over Georgia and the Ukraine.


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## Underway (31 Dec 2015)

Ludoc said:
			
		

> What values are those?





> The Parties to this Treaty reaffirm their faith in the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and their desire to live in peace with all peoples and all governments.
> They are determined to safeguard the freedom, common heritage and civilisation of their peoples, founded on the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law. They seek to promote stability and well-being in the North Atlantic area.
> They are resolved to unite their efforts for collective defence and for the preservation of peace and security. They therefore agree to this North Atlantic Treaty :



Its right in the preamble of the treaty.

As for being allowed to leave or be kicked out of the treaty.



> Article 12
> After the Treaty has been in force for ten years, or at any time thereafter, the Parties shall, if any of them so requests, consult together for the purpose of reviewing the Treaty, having regard for the factors then affecting peace and security in the North Atlantic area, including the development of universal as well as regional arrangements under the Charter of the United Nations for the maintenance of international peace and security.
> 
> Article 13
> After the Treaty has been in force for twenty years, any Party may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation.



So you can leave if you would like but you can't be kicked out unless Article 12 takes effect and the Treaty is renegotiated.  What is amazing about the NATO treaty is that it's only 14 Articles long.  Its beautiful in its simplicity and strength.  Probably the best treaty Canada ever signed after the Auto Pact.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Jan 2016)

Too bad the Greek jet didn't blast the Turkish one out of the air.


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## winnipegoo7 (1 Jan 2016)

> Turkey's Erdogan cites Hitler's Germany as example of presidential system



http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-erdogan-hitler-idUSKBN0UF1T820160101

Probably taken out of context, but interesting none the less


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Jan 2016)

When they say dogfight, wonder what they mean, actually firing guns, missile or aggressive maneuvering to get a lock on the opponent?


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## winnipegoo7 (1 Jan 2016)

they were 'mock' dogfights. No one was shooting. From what I have read this occurs fairly often.


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## Colin Parkinson (6 May 2020)

Seems the Greeks and the Turks are still at it https://greekcitytimes.com/2020/05/05/greek-fighter-jets-lock-onto-turkish-f-16-in-the-aegean-i-got-him-says-the-pilot/


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## Good2Golf (7 May 2020)

That Mirage can sure manoeuvre.  From :25 to about :38, you can see the Turkish F-16 pilling pretty good G’s (big contrails of the leading edge strakes) and the Mirage is comfortably keeping the puppet on him.


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