# SWAT team leaves assault rifle behind



## ENGINEERS WIFE (24 Nov 2008)

SWAT team leaves assault rifle behind
The officer forgot the weapon in grass while packing up gear

updated 3:27 p.m. MT, Sun., Nov. 23, 2008
SALT LAKE CITY - A member of Salt Lake County's SWAT team left an M4 assault rifle in front of someone's home after leaving the scene of a standoff in the township of White City.

Salt Lake County Sheriff's Deputy Levi Hughes says the gun was left by a veteran member of the SWAT team who forgot the weapon in the grass while packing up gear after the standoff ended.

A homeowner found the rifle in the front yard of a house a few hours later and notified authorities. Hughes says an officer on patrol stopped by the home and recognized the rifle as a weapon belonging to the SWAT team.

Hughes says leaving the gun behind was an unacceptable, terrible mistake. Hughes says the officer will face disciplinary action, but probably won't be fired.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27877092/


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (24 Nov 2008)

BIG OOPS   :-\

Now, that has got to suck bigtime.


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## Scratch_043 (24 Nov 2008)

How many pushups do you think that warrants?


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## PAT-Platoon (24 Nov 2008)

Wow, certainly a scary thought. I think this coupled with many other accounts (wrong addresses on no-knock warrants) make me very thankful that we have an organization like the RCMP (and ERT within it) that is held to a much greater, federal standard. For the most part, many SWAT teams in the United States are simply cowboys with little to no training given very high-speed low-drag gear. Gear is no replacement for training standards.

-C/D


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## KingKikapu (24 Nov 2008)

Cognitive-Dissonance said:
			
		

> Wow, certainly a scary thought. I think this coupled with many other accounts (wrong addresses on no-knock warrants) make me very thankful that we have an organization like the RCMP (and ERT within it) that is held to a much greater, federal standard. For the most part, many SWAT teams in the United States are simply cowboys with little to no training given very high-speed low-drag gear. Gear is no replacement for training standards.
> 
> -C/D


I'm gonna give you some advice, and I hope you listen to an outsider like me before a myriad of people pounce all over you: stop proselytizing.  Stop kibitzing.   Stop.  Stop.  Stop.

You have made some very astute observations in the past which I enjoyed reading.  Then again, you have also made enough logical fallacies to make me cringe.  Blanket statements, straw mans, and relativist fallacies.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading from the same person.

I like you, because you're willing to play devil's advocate when too few people are.  You also play armchair general when you shouldn't, and I can see a S*** storm heading your way because of it.  Try to tone it back please.  For your sake.

I hope we can all be civil, yes?


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## PAT-Platoon (24 Nov 2008)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> I'm gonna give you some advice, and I hope you listen to an outsider like me before a myriad of people pounce all over you: stop proselytizing.  Stop kibitzing.   Stop.  Stop.  Stop.
> 
> You have made some very astute observations in the past which I enjoyed reading.  Then again, you have also made enough logical fallacies to make me cringe.  Blanket statements, straw mans, and relativist fallacies.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm reading from the same person.
> 
> ...



My apologies, I will make an effort to change the tone of my post. With that in mind however, the point I bring up is still a valid one. SWAT teams in the United States have recently had a tenuous and controversial history, and events like these are not out of the norm for many SWAT teams in the United States. 

-C/D


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## KingKikapu (24 Nov 2008)

Don't apologize then carry on trying to make your point.  It's the classic sign of someone who loves to discuss and debate but it's also a sign of a bad communicator.  You don't need to always get the last one in.


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## fire_guy686 (24 Nov 2008)

That has to be embarrassing.


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## PAT-Platoon (24 Nov 2008)

KingKikapu said:
			
		

> Don't apologize then carry on trying to make your point.  It's the classic sign of someone who loves to discuss and debate but it's also a sign of a bad communicator.  You don't need to always get the last one in.



You were stating that the problem with my post was the tone of it, not the actual point. I apologized for the tone I had. I will never apologize for the actual point I made, because it is justifiable and valid. If you disagree with the point, then simply bring forth a rebuttal. 


-C/D


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## KingKikapu (24 Nov 2008)

Fallacy of composition.

Also, stop starting a sentence with a point, then using a corrective word like "but" or "however", and then going off on another point.  In this context you completely negate everything you said before the correction.

Don't ever say I didn't try.

*takes a step back to give room for the storm*


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## 1feral1 (24 Nov 2008)

On my tour we had (yes, a fellow Sergeant and an RAAC member at that) leave his F88 carbine at the discharge barrels at a certain FOB which shall remain nameless.

His ass was covered by his men, who went back and got it from the Yank sentries. This was at the beginning of the tour, and almost 7 months later, we never let him forget it either. He was the brunt of many jokes.

No trigger happy reckless cowboy, just literally forgot. It was one of our first hairy assed patrols in the Badlands. We're all human.

SWAT teams such as the LAPD's have often come up to Canada to teach ours. All true professionals (many Veterans), but we are only human. So what does that make our SWAT teams? Just as professional as anyone elses overall.

As for the cop in question, perhaps he was adrenalised or traumatised, but as for kit accountability, this should perhaps be done by the Snr SWAT person upon leaving the area?

For the LEO's out there who go into harms way to make our communities a safer place, you are   'ed

Cheers from a tropical spring night,

OWDU


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## Bruce Monkhouse (24 Nov 2008)

Cognitive-Dissonance- Welcome to the next warning level.

 The Jan Brady syndrome that is showing more and more explains a lot of things.........

Just maybe someday you will accomplish something with your life and not have to try and tear down those who already have.


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## Mike Baker (24 Nov 2008)

Cognitive-Dissonance said:
			
		

> Wow, certainly a scary thought. I think this coupled with many other accounts (wrong addresses on no-knock warrants) make me very thankful that we have an organization like the RCMP (and ERT within it) that is held to a much greater, federal standard. For the most part, many SWAT teams in the United States are simply cowboys with little to no training given very high-speed low-drag gear. Gear is no replacement for training standards.
> 
> -C/D


Talking about your experience with American SWAT teams? Or just stirring the pot again? Any sources for this? No? Didn't think so...

Sorry for the derailment folks.


Back on topic, this is quite the oopsie isn't it!


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## Garett (24 Nov 2008)

Back in the mid-90s a Fredericton City Police officer on the SWAT team lost his pistol while responding to a crazy guy on a bridge who had shot someone in the back with a .22cal rifle on a walking trail. They blamed the loss of the pistol on the holster and replaced all their holsters. Shit happens.


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## PMedMoe (24 Nov 2008)

It also happened in our subdivision in Moncton during the early 80's.  Thankfully, the *5 year old* kid who found the rifle had enough sense to not touch it but to go tell his mother.


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## Slim (24 Nov 2008)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> On my tour we had (yes, a fellow Sergeant and an RAAC member at that) leave his F88 carbine at the discharge barrels at a certain FOB which shall remain nameless.
> 
> His *** was covered by his men, who went back and got it from the Yank sentries. This was at the beginning of the tour, and almost 7 months later, we never let him forget it either. He was the brunt of many jokes.
> 
> No trigger happy reckless cowboy, just literally forgot. It was one of our first hairy assed patrols in the Badlands. We're all human.



Critical Incident Stress is a word that LEO's are beginning to hear more and more now as it is finally becoming understood. It doesn't really matter who someone is...Good or bad, if they're under CIS then all sorts of things can happen.

Certainly losing a weapon, while embarrassing, could be one of those things.

my 2 cents

Slim


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## helpup (24 Nov 2008)

Since I wasn't there, don't know the man, nor the situation that proceeded it.  I will just chalk it up to funny situation that thankfully no one got hurt in.  It would be embarrassing to the LEO in question and glad they added he wont be fired.  We all will in our lives make mistakes.  But as long as we learn from them....


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Nov 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> It also happened in our subdivision in Moncton during the early 80's.  Thankfully, the *5 year old* kid who found the rifle had enough sense to not touch it but to go tell his mother.



Now that is one smart 5 year old, good job.


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## Marshall (24 Nov 2008)

Man.. the gun would be the FIRST thing I would make sure is with me..  ???


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## ARMY_101 (24 Nov 2008)

Sounds like a similar incident which happened outside of a Kitchener high school last year.  An undercover officer was doing surveillance on an apartment building across from the school, and when he went in to arrest someone he left his bag behind, containing a loaded 9mm pistol, 45 rounds of ammunition, baton, handcuffs, and police notepad.  The officer in this case was demoted for six months and also reassigned.

Accidents happen, and sometime they can be dangerous.  People who serve in our military, police services, and SWAT teams are rained to a very high level of professionalism, but that does not excuse them from being super-human.  Even in our own line of work people drop magazines and forget a small piece of kit after an exercise.  That doesn't mean they're cowboys or untrained, undisciplined soldiers.  It simply means they forgot.  Should they be free from punishment?  No.  But does it mean they're slack, idle, cowboys?  Certainly not.


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## Blakey (24 Nov 2008)

Shilo Training area 1988(c).

Dark overcast night, troops from a Reserve Basic doing a night Nav Ex, approx half way through and just after my leg of the EX.

Instructor: "Pte Bloggins, we have to go back (1000m's) and try to take the EXACT way you came."

Me: "Ugh, yes Sgt, whats wrong, did I fail  ???)

Instructor: "No, we're looking for, something....errr someone lost their C1" 

Me: "Roger"

So, heading out on my back bearing we procede to traverse the hills and dales of my last leg, all 1000m's worth.

We arrive back at my start point and begin to look around, I found the weapon right where it was left, the person in question sat down to take a break after that leg and when they got up didn't notice that huge weight lifted of their shoulder and carried on with the Nav Ex.

"Misplacing"/losing weapons probably happens more often than not (we, more than likely just don't here about it unless we are directly involved), we just have to take steps to ensure that it doesn't happen again, wether that be through more training or administrative action.


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## medaid (24 Nov 2008)

Cognitive-Dissonance said:
			
		

> Wow, certainly a scary thought. I think this coupled with many other accounts (wrong addresses on no-knock warrants) make me very thankful that we have an organization like the RCMP (and ERT within it) that is held to a much greater, federal standard. For the most part, many SWAT teams in the United States are simply cowboys with little to no training given very high-speed low-drag gear. Gear is no replacement for training standards.
> 
> -C/D



Great! When was the last time you've worked with an US SWAT, HRT, etc? Never? How bout a Canadian ERT? HRT? RTU? etc? Never? Well why don't you sit there, switch yourself on to listening silence and stay that way awhile? 

There are many ERT that are just as professional as the RCMP, and in order to arrive at the SWAT, ERT, HRT, RTU etc level you must have a proven record with the ability to make critical judgments, ability to react under high stress and other qualities. This is why most members in these specialized units have all had previous military background. Most in the US are ex SF, Rangers, SEALs etc. Same thing up here. Some members are ex CF, SAS, JTF, etc. 

Someone with your track record, and background really should think twice before posting inflammatory and false remarks with regards to things that you have little to no clue about. 

Never mind. You're no longer with us.


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