# issued firearms



## Troopasaurus (28 Oct 2002)

i have a question about issued firearms do the recon specialists (infantry) use the C8 or the C7 ? and who is eligable to get the browning 9mm ? what about the possibilty of carrying your own personal sidearmy (in your name not the army‘s) ? any help is greatly apreciated


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## armd_recce (28 Oct 2002)

In the CF we call it recce not recon, and infantry recce is organized into recce platoons. Soldiers will rotate in and out of the recce platoon, so no one really spends a career there. 
If you look at the recent photos from Afghanistan, you will see the infantry types carrying C7s, C7A1s and C8s. There‘s not a specific entitlement to the C8 generally, unless you‘re in the armour corps or otherwise a member of an AFV crew. However, it does seem that a few troops acquired them along the way. 
To directly answer your question, either or, depending on what‘s available and what the preference of the soldier is. 

Pistols are generally issued to officers and senior NCOs, but are more common in command post environments. They are pretty useless in combat, and they make you a rather obvious target. Very rarely have I seen or heard of them being carried by platoon/troop leaders or 2ICs. In the armour corps they are generally only found on the sergeant major and in the CP, nobody else wants one. Depending on availability and desire, I imagine that MCpl / Sgt types and up could get one.

Lastly, there‘s no chance to carry your own personal sidearm, that‘s a get into jail free card for sure.


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## Jarnhamar (28 Oct 2002)

i think recce tasked soldiers would prefer the C8 over the C7 but it all depends on if the unit has any C8s to spare. Pistols usually go to officers, weapons crews, medics i guess. Drivers too i think, again it depends on availability.

I dont think you can use your own pistol, when we were in bosnia the MPs made soldiers turn in any and all water pistols that they had in the camp, to be returned upon departure.


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## Korus (28 Oct 2002)

Just out of curiosity, do the MPs get C8s? I heard that they do..


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## Doug VT (28 Oct 2002)

Our Recce platoon used C8‘s.
In Bosnia on my first tour, I was issued a pistol(as a Pte)
All ranks from Section 2 i/c up were issued pistols on both my tours in Bosnia.
In Canada 2 i/c‘s and up can carry pistols, but usually it starts at Pl Commanders.  Also the 84 mm gunner usual carries a pistol as his personal weapon.


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## combat_medic (29 Oct 2002)

From my father, the 30-year police veteran:

"A bad day with a rifle is far better than a good day with a pistol."

Besides, I‘ve used our Brownings and, as a medic, I‘ve turned down the pistol on many occasions. I‘d rather have a rifle anyway, despite the weight, the hassle, and the interference with medical kit. If the $hit hit the fan, I‘d rather have my C7 than any pistol.

By the way, does anyone here use iron sights anymore? Any idea where I can get an iron sight attachment for a flat top C7 that‘s legal in Canada?


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## Marauder (29 Oct 2002)

I was told C6 gunners are also entitled to the use of a pistol, but I‘ve never seen it happen.

The one time I‘ve fired a Browning belonging to Mother Green I had three misfeeds in four mags. I don‘t know whether it was the weapon or the ammo, but I do know I have never had a misfeed or stoppage firing much higher volumes of ammo thru H&Ks, Glocks, and Sigs....


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## Troopasaurus (29 Oct 2002)

what about weapon accesories mainly the knight‘s armory rail system that allows you to mount a front grip on the C8 ? personal attachments ? 100rdn drum     (i know impractical) here is a pic of the front grip  http://webcats.net/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=J&Product_Code=FPGA&Category_Code=KA


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## Jarnhamar (29 Oct 2002)

Lots of people should get pistols but theres usually not that many to go around.

The cf has issued ironsites for the c7. It attaches on the rail. its small and you can even have it attached while the scope is still on providing you have room


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## Zoomie (29 Oct 2002)

No 521, it is not Kosher to add your own accessories to CF issue weapons.  Apart from varying sling techniques and the liberal application of camouflage, thou shalt not change/modify/adjust/anything to thine issue weapon.

On the issue of the High Power Browning and its stoppages.  Must of these problems can be attributed to its magazine and the spring inside them.  Change the mag, put the rounds back in, and voila, no problem.  Use the same mag, you get the same result 100% of the time with only 2-3 rounds left.


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## Recce41 (29 Oct 2002)

First off, this is the Military not a bunch of Cowboys. YOU CANNOT TAKE OR USE YOUR PERSONAL WEAPON! Secondly you CANNOT MODIFY YOU WEAPON!. Yes some of us have white painted forestocks or green cam ones, but they are issued as special need. Troops get issued a weapon to need. Armour troops get C8s and C/C get pistols, if they are in Asssult Troop C7s with M203, section commanders and 2iCs get a pistol. 
 This lil **** is what I mean, when I say some people on here are right F*&^ up.


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## MP 811 (29 Oct 2002)

Can you think of a good reason why you would want to carry your own weapon knowing full well that the CF issues personal weapons??  I think not..................dont be a cowboy


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## Doug VT (30 Oct 2002)

I only use the Iron sights for the C7, the optical is nice but it loses it‘s zero far too easily.
Our *special* C8‘s have the rail system in place of fore-stocks where lasers, flashlights, and yes, an extra handle can be placed.  It‘s just the extra handle from a C9, it just screws in.


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## combat_medic (30 Oct 2002)

People (especially kids) see movies like "Blackhawk Down" and see guys like Delta Force carrying upgraded, super high-quality weaponry and other various shiny kit, and think that everyone is like that. I saw kids on many courses of mine saying "I‘m only here for a little while until I get into special forces" or, "I‘m heading into SAR right after this." 

These are 16 year old kids who have no idea what‘s involved in any of these occupations. Like the kids who want to do recce, or become snipers, or paratroopers. They don‘t realise that‘s it‘s not all fun and glamour like you see on "Bravo Two Zero" or "Enemy at the Gates." The hard work and bull$hit involved never gets shown on TV.

Anyway, just ignore these kids. One day, some big infantry Sgt is going to give them a rude awakening and they‘ll gain some life knowledge, and maybe realize that real life isn‘t like TV (what a concept!)


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## Doug VT (30 Oct 2002)

How refreshing!  That‘s right Doc, tell it like it is!  It‘s good to dream though.  Everyone‘s got a dream.  Hooah!


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## Troopasaurus (30 Oct 2002)




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## Troopasaurus (30 Oct 2002)

hey im not just some dumba/s kid i know that in order to get were i want im gonna end up doing jobs like latrine duty im not that ignorant i have been to several military bases i have seen and slept in the barracks i have done 4 years worth of drill PT shooting (Cadets) how many of the people here without looking at a book or searching it on the internet can tell me what an SA-7 is and what caliber the Dragonov sniper rifle shoots ? i was doubtfull that modification would be allowed but hey whats the harm in the question ?  as for a fact JTF-2 can modify and carry "sanitized" weapons that mean they can use whatever they want    





> This lil **** is what I mean, when I say some people on here are right F*&^ up.


there goes military dicipline   





> Our *special* C8‘s have the rail system in place of fore-stocks where lasers, flashlights, and yes, an extra handle can be placed. It‘s just the extra handle from a C9, it just screws in.


so wow look someone was nice enough to answer my question in a civilised manner thank you doug oh and zommie but overall i realise now that some people just need some help dealing with simple questions i really didnt think anyone could have such a problem with a question seems to me that people in the foreign leagion are better behaved     

"the above was not an attempt to explain military life to those above this post, more of my views on military life"


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## MP 811 (31 Oct 2002)

Try joining the ranks of the Foreign Legion and see how well behaved they are.  There‘s nothing wrong with asking questions, but learn to articulate.  The way you ask a question on a forum says alot about you from the people who read it.


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## Jarnhamar (31 Oct 2002)

If you join the forien legion and your a ‘pretty boy‘ they hit you int he face until you look like the rest of them, hows that for not having individuals.

521 aurora if i may suggest something to you, don‘t come into the military talking about how much more  you know compared to the next guy especially if that‘s cadet work. I understand that a cadet would be proud of their accomplishments but you‘ll find many a person will still just see cadets as kids.  Saying "when i was in cadets" will get you no where fast to say the least.

"how many of the people here without looking at a book or searching it on the internet can tell me what an SA-7"   Why would someone know what that is??  I wouldn‘t expect a clerk or artillery soldier or medic be able to tell me how a fighting patrol is made up nor would i expect them to think i know much about their job. Anyone who plays computer games can rhyme off what type of caliber whatever weapon shoots or how the delta force break into a building. I don‘t even know what an SA-7 is, some kinda missle??

As far as modifing your weapons goes, i‘ve seen a few guys do little things like replace their pistol grip with a compitition one with a palm rest  (like the one you can see on the psg-1).
When my unit was doing the jungle lanes at night  i rigged up one of those laser pen lights to my C7 with guntape and rough zeroed it in the day time, worked like a charm with the NVGs at night.

Regarding carrying your own firearms, i heard that in days past soldiers could carry their own pistols but that was probably just a rumor. I know persoanlly when i was in bosnia i was going to buy a 9mm H&K pistol or 9mm sig226 while i was in hungary to use a as personal weapon (and not tell anyone) because origionally i was a c-9 gunner and then we were told to just keep the c9s in our lockers because they looked too agressive so i ended up walking around with someone elses c7 that had butt extentions on that i couldnt use or wasn‘t zero‘d to me at all.

Maybe the members here could have refrained from jumping on ya that harshly, calling you a cowboy or kid (afterall how many of us entered the military knowing exactly what it was like, when i joined i wanted to join the airborne regiment after of course it was disbanded, civilians know hardly anything about the army) but you shouldnt give them ammo to use against you. Nothing is worse then getting shot with your own gun i would imagine


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## portcullisguy (31 Oct 2002)

I‘ve never been in combat.  Lord help me, I never will!  

But yes, I totally see Ghost‘s side on this one.

What calibre the Dragonuv fires, or what an SA-7 is (and it‘s maximum ceiling and type of tracking system, and speed) are totally irrelevant if you are at the bottom end of the military ladder.  I imagine you don‘t want either pointed in your direction or fired in anger.  And if they are, I would imagine your main concern is getting the f*ck out of that situation.

For me, it‘s nice to know that a C-7 holds 30 rds, and is gas-operated, and how it comes apart, and the fact that it shoots 5.56mm.  But all of this is so I can use this tool properly.  If the day ever comes when I need it to, I just want it to throw bullets in the general direction of the enemy as fast and best as possible.  It‘s irrelevant at that point to know that the rifle weighs 3.3kg unloaded, and all that other sh*t.

While on the topic, several people in my basic course are all hyped up about wanting to fire pistols and wanting to get a bayonet.

If you‘re bringing a pistol to a rifle fight, you‘ve already lost.  If you need a bayonet, and you are in a formation armed with rifles and machine guns, then, again, you are in the sh*t.  Yes, things you may need to know later, but not on a basic course.

I watch movies because they‘re entertaining and dramatic, and if they happen to appear realistic, it adds to the drama.  Do I really think an RPG could explode through a wall next to me and I‘d be totally uninjured, as happens in several scenes in Black Hawk Down?  No.  Do I want to find out how close I can get to an RPG going off before I actually get injured?  F*ck no.

End of rant...


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## Jarnhamar (31 Oct 2002)

You never see in movies troops going down with a rash between their legs, a twisted ankle or a stick int he eye


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## Recce41 (31 Oct 2002)

If people don‘t like the way I put forward a reply OOOwell. I‘ve been shot at, shelled , etc. If you read my profile, I earned a CDS Com. As for the people in lil Ottawa, yes carring their own weapons is a half truth. Weapons are issued to what is prefered so if you like a 9mm Beretta you may be issued it. If you like a damn cannon you maybe issued it. But just because I want it does not mean you get it. 
As for AFV, every damn soldier from Arty to Zoo keeper should know AFV. 521 Good for you in that way, At Regts some soldier don‘t even know a T72. If I seem hard, take it from a old $hit and thats that.


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## scm77 (10 Nov 2003)

"Weapons are issued to what is prefered so if you like a 9mm Beretta you may be issued it."

Is that true? I thought CF only had Brownings, are Berettas new?


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## MJP (10 Nov 2003)

He‘s referring to the JTF2 guys and their choice of weapons.  The only pistol you‘ll see for the most part is the Browning.


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (10 Nov 2003)

SVD Dragonov fires a 7.62 x 54R round.  The SA-7 is a Surface to Air Missile.  I believe its name is the Grail.  C6 Gunners do carry pistols.  When I was one I ALWAYS did.  Its the VERY last line of defence.  If the Number 2 and the Gun Commander‘s run out of 5.56 for their C7s.  And you are out of 7.62 for the Six.  Then you can use the special Browning mount in the SF kit to mount the 9mm onto the Tripod.  That gives the pistol an increase maximum effective range of 85 metres.  9mm Trace is pretty cool too.  Its purple.  As for cadets, I suggest you keep it a secret that you once were one of those...things...when you join the Grown Up‘s gun club.  Instructors love riding former Cadets.    :fifty:


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## Redeye (10 Nov 2003)

What, exactly, is a Lance Master Corporal?


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## MJP (10 Nov 2003)

I was wondering to......VERY informative post though.


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## mattoigta (10 Nov 2003)

haha.. oh those argylls


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (11 Nov 2003)

Lance Master Corporal...Corporal that has the duties and position of leadership...without the leaf or the acting lacking.  Its ficticious of course.  Made up in good fun of course.  I hope no one is offended by it.  If so...well...we‘ll just leave it at "well".  Has anyone tried the new Belt fed conversion kit for the pistols though?  It‘s pretty cool.  It comes with a bipod too.  Changing barrels is a pain though.  You also need a tweezers to change the gas settings.  They work best on gas setting 3.  Thats what I always keep mine on.  I‘m still awaiting the mount for the C79 for the Browning.  Can‘t wait to use that in the sustained fire role.    :akimbo:


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## AZA-02 (11 Nov 2003)

I know a reason to carry a personal weapon. in case you loose you rifle, or for close quarter assaults(urban warfare, fox holes, bunkers ect.) if i had to secure a house, i could use a mac11 (hoping not to get hit by a ricochet) or some kind of other smg, HK MP5, FN90.  :akimbo:    :cam:


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (11 Nov 2003)

Personally I‘d take the new CF Laser Rifle.  I‘d keep it on a low setting so it doesn‘t completely burn through walls.  But yeah, the Laser Rifles are one cool piece of kit.


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (11 Nov 2003)

"I know a reason to carry a personal weapon. in case you loose you rifle,"

I wouldn‘t want a pistol in that situation because your section commander or Pl WO will use your own pistol on you for being stupid enough to lose your rifle.  Or if the CSM finds out...that pistol will be rammed up your *** ...with the help of his pace stick...


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Nov 2003)

Have you ever handled any sort of smg or any military firearm AL-X? Until you do I think you may want to watch trying to put forth a "learned" opinion.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Nov 2003)

Get you QL21 Laser Infantry Course yet Kurrgan?


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (11 Nov 2003)

I was on the first course run for it.  I‘m also qualified on the M2003 Photon Torpedo Grenade Launcher.  ITs a great weapons system and will bring the Canadian Forces beyond the 21st Century.  I can‘t wait for the LAV IV Hover APC to enter service...  :gunner:    :fifty:


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## GGHG_Cadet (11 Nov 2003)

I was wondering if officers get to choose if they get a C7 or C8? I was also wondering if your a shorter person could you choose a C8 over a C7?


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## fusilier955 (11 Nov 2003)

no officers dont carry the C8 unless fighting in an area of restricted space, where as a C7 would be too cumbersome to negotiate in these places.  you get the C7 because your main roll is to command fire power to where you need, the firepower is left to the NCMs on weapons other than the C7 with namely more firepower.  and no you dont get to pick a rifle, it is picked for you by your leadership (section commander).


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## AZA-02 (12 Nov 2003)

where can i get a legal c7 in Canada?
    :mg:


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## Jarnhamar (12 Nov 2003)

I‘ll sell you one, i know where they keep the keys to the QM.
How much are you willing to pay?


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## cronos (12 Nov 2003)

I appologize for the subtleness but...

Haha.

Sometimes conversation in this forum cracks me up.

On a side note, my intention is to go regular force, but the reserve force recruiter wants me to *obviously* join his Regiment. How easy is it to transfer into regular force from reserves?

(Off topic for this thread, I appologize)


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## brin11 (12 Nov 2003)

Martin de Souza,

There are ways to change the butt length for the C7; so, in theory, your personal weapon could be made to be quite comfortable regardless of whether you were short or tall.


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## Pte. Bloggins (12 Nov 2003)

> Originally posted by L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan:
> [qb] "I know a reason to carry a personal weapon. in case you loose you rifle,"
> 
> I wouldn‘t want a pistol in that situation because your section commander or Pl WO will use your own pistol on you for being stupid enough to lose your rifle.  Or if the CSM finds out...that pistol will be rammed up your *** ...with the help of his pace stick... [/qb]


lol exactly.


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## jrhume (12 Nov 2003)

A few months ago I read a US Army after-action report on the Iraqi fighting.  The report concentrated on weapons and the interviews were done in the field -- some before the invasion part ended.  

All US soldiers who had occasion to use their pistols complained about feed problems.  The magazine is the culprit, as mentioned in another post.  Also, the Army uses issues ball ammo for the pistol.  Many GIs reported shooting a bad guy and not even slowing him down -- the slugs went right on through.  There is a move afoot to change combat ammo to hollow-point, like cops carry.  Pistols were used a good deal in Iraq, due to the amount of urban fighting.

Some units deployed a few M-14s along with regular weapons.  Troops often needed to reach out beyond 5.56 effective range and the 14 filled the bill quite nicely.  

The best weapon for opening doors proved to be a shotgun with rifled slugs.  LOL

The .50 sniper rifle came in for a lot of praise.  One shooter fired on a bad guy standing on a water tower carrying an RPG.  He said the shot was quite successful -- only the lower torso remained on the tower catwalk.  Several snipers reported multiple kills with a single shot.

Various types of kit and commo gear were discussed in the report.  I‘ll see if I can find the link again.  I stumbled into it by accident the first time.

A Marine friend of mine says he saw a similar report from Iraq reporting on Marine units.  That one I haven‘t seen.

Jim


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (13 Nov 2003)

Was that sniper firing at the vehicle behind the guy with the RPG?  Cuz shooting people with a .50 Cal is against the Geneva Convention.  But then again...what do the Swiss know?  :sniper:


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## Ex-Dragoon (13 Nov 2003)

> Originally posted by L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan:
> [qb] Cuz shooting people with a .50 Cal is against the Geneva Convention.  But then again...what do the Swiss know?   :sniper:  [/qb]


I always thought and have been told as well that that is a commonly held military myth face it you would not be able to use 40mm grenades on people as well if that had any degree of truth.


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (13 Nov 2003)

But its a grenade not a bullet.  Meh, I never read the convention.  I‘m just going by what ever Officer and Snr NCO has told me for the past 4 years.


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## portcullisguy (13 Nov 2003)

> Originally posted by Al-X:
> [qb] where can i get a legal c7 in Canada?
> :mg:  [/qb]


The closest thing you can get is a Colt or Bushmaster or other variant of the M16 or M4 (the carbine version), sold for export, in a semi-auto only configuration.

They are expensive - $2200 and up.  And they are hard to find - gun stores seldom carry them and it‘s hard to find private owners willing to sell them.

You can only use 5 rd mags (30 rd mags pinned to 5 rds), which makes it a short-lived thrill, firing off a mag.

I am still considering buying one myself, but I don‘t like maying that much for something I will hardly ever use.

The weapons are classed as "restricted" in the semi-auto mode, and of course, you need a firearms licence and an authorization to transport to bring them anywhere.

Before you ask, no, Diemaco, the maker of the CF‘s C7 and C8 rifles, does NOT sell to the civilian market (although they can and do make semi-auto only versions).  I believe this is because of a licence agreement with Colt, but probably also to do with their supply contract to the CF.

Good luck!


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## Redeye (13 Nov 2003)

Kurrgan, remember what they taught us - the .50 is for use on equipment only, not personnel.

Webbing - that‘s equipment.
Buttons - that‘s equipment.
Load carriage gear - that‘s equipment.
Goggles - equipment.

etc


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (14 Nov 2003)

I like your thinking.


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## Slim (14 Nov 2003)

> Originally posted by combat_medic:
> [qb] From my father, the 30-year police veteran:
> 
> 
> By the way, does anyone here use iron sights anymore? Any idea where I can get an iron sight attachment for a flat top C7 that‘s legal in Canada? [/qb]


I had a chance to hang around some pathfinders and they seemed to have an attachment for the C7 that had some sort of raised Iron sight on the forstock...however I never saw the thing in actual use.  :mg:


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## btk_joker (18 Nov 2003)

Combat Medic says:



> I saw kids on many courses of mine saying "I‘m only here for a little while until I get into special forces" or, "I‘m heading into SAR right after this.".......These are 16 year old kids who have no idea what‘s involved in any of these occupations. Like the kids who want to do recce, or become snipers, or paratroopers......Anyway, just ignore these kids.


I agree that all these "kids" see is glamourized war and so on but it isn‘t fair for you to just come on and discourage everyone who has plans to "do recce, or become snipers, or paratroopers." I personally plan on becoming a sniper in the CF and believe that I can. And I have seen the other side of it other that blowing **** up.


J. Lightfoot


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## combat_medic (18 Nov 2003)

Hulk: Believing you can do something will not necessarily make it happen, contrary to the "Little Engine that Could". If you have less than 20/20 vision, any kind of medical problems, and are in anything less than peak physical condition, you will not be a sniper no matter how much you think you can. 

How about instead of "I WILL be a sniper in the CF" you have the goal of "I want to be the best soldier I can be, and hope one day to be good enough to get course loaded for basic sniper." Also, getting on the course is no guarantee of passing, and passing is no guarantee of being employed as a sniper. Making statements like that just make you look like a little kid who has watched "Enemy at the Gates" and "Sniper" too many times. 

Oh, and unless you have some kind of advanced reg force recce qualification, then you don‘t know "the other side of it." There are several qualified snipers on this board who will jump down your throat for statements like those. There are also hundreds of kids like yourself popping up on threads like these every single day talking about how they‘re going to be in the special forces/snipers/paratroopers/SAR techs etc, and yet aren‘t even medically fit enough to be a CSS trade, and are too stupid to pass the written exam. Please don‘t add to the pile, there‘s enough as it is.


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## Ex-Dragoon (18 Nov 2003)

Amen!


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## btk_joker (19 Nov 2003)

Anyway, it‘s still going to happen


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (19 Nov 2003)

Cocky...


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## OLD SCHOOL (19 Nov 2003)

I think combat medic is spot on.
I and others like me were completely void of the whole ‘hero vision‘ when we joined. I didn‘t know if I would even survive the MCPL on basic or the SGT. in the BSL. Should I have ever even once pulled the whole "I‘m a badass attitude" I would have been flushed on the spot or at least in for a world of hurt to the point where I wished I was flushed.
I found out I could shoot and remember things I was told. Number memory is important for map work,weapons etc...
Day by day I just learned and presto, you got recomended just from hard work.
Every course I went to I had confidence but to think you are already the man before you prove it is very dangerous and can actually short circuit your goals.
My advice is to approach every course with an open mind and humility. It is much better to tell yourself that "I can complete this task to standard" as you go through a course compared to "I am pathfinder/sniper/ranger material" 
You will only get through task by task, as when you come to the river in winter that you must swim across in your scivies to keep your kit dry,this is a task. Tired and cold and under stress,you will not cross that river for a funky badge believe me.      :crybaby:  I flushed many a ‘badass‘ from different courses but in truth you don‘t see many in the forces because they don‘t make it that far. 

Confidence is a key ingredient but don‘t let it **** you in the *** !


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## Staff (19 Nov 2003)

I looked at the number of individuals loaded on sniper courses versus those that passed for 5 bde a while ago. Not alot passed. (Something like 7 out of around 20 if I remember). Thes were all switched on guys. Members who had proven themselves to be solid soldiers. All of them were excellent in a recce role. The boys in 1R22R keep winning or placing well at sniper concentrations. They are definitely not going to choose,(and they generally get to), some smartmouthed punk with too much attitude. If you are deadset on going sniper or some other field requiring intense dedication just to be selected, I‘d advise keeping your mouth shut, ears open, and pay attention to the guys with experience. Be prepared to suffer rejection. Most guys don‘t make it, not because they are not excellent shots, but because they didn‘t have enough patience on the stalk. By the way, 20/20 vision is not an absolute must, nor is being right handed or being a non-smoker like in the old days, although it might help. There are technologies to compensate for the first two, and if you have enough willpower to pass the course, could probably kick the habit without blinking an eye.


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## Jarnhamar (19 Nov 2003)

I‘m believe within 3 years of my contract i‘ll have the sniper course. Not only that I predict I‘ll finish in the top 3.

Hows that for confidence


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## OLD SCHOOL (19 Nov 2003)

Wow, that would be stellar.  :warstory:  
First for everything though I guess.
I could have done that if I wasn‘t so **** cross eyed.  :blotto:


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## btk_joker (19 Nov 2003)

Im not being "cocky," "Im hardass," "some smartmouthed punk with too much attitude" etc..., I‘m just saying that I know I can do it. Even if I don‘t get employed as a sniper, I believe that I can still pass the course. I know all of you have more experience than I do, but I‘ve done a lot of research on this, even though that doesnt make it so that you know what to expect. Anyway, thank you all so much for the salubrious comments to encourage me.


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## combat_medic (20 Nov 2003)

Hulk, you just said that you know WITHOUT A DOUBT that you can pass a course about which you know nothing, have never attempted, and maybe saw a movie about once, or read a book about. I doubt you have ever even sat down with a qualified sniper to talk to them. And yet, you stated in the SAME SENTENCE that you weren‘t smart @ssed or cocky!

You know, I had a kid on my basic who was just as ignorant and arrogant as you. Wanna know something? He could even pass his infantry course in 2 attempts. His $hitty attitude and big chip on his shoulder was such a detrement to himself and to the others in his platoon that no one would work with him. Not only that, but his attitude and performance were so poor, that he can‘t get a transfer to the reg force because of his crappy couse reports. I can guarantee that if you don‘t get rid of your arrogance and "I can do anything I ever want" attitude, then you will be in the same boat.

And you know what, I think that I can singlehandedly eliminate the Government of Canada, install myself into an absolute Monarchy and turn the population into my personal servants. I KNOW I can do it and therefore it will happen! That statement sounds only slightly more ridiculous than your insecure teenaged wannabe tripe.


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## xtramag (20 Nov 2003)

When on an important course is it benificial to set yourself short term goals?, say for example at battle school will i do better with goals like "today i will be first out of the rack", or "im going to get myself the best obsticle course time". is it advantages to set goals like these for yourself? what else can a pearson do to stay motivated and stick with it?


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## Danjanou (20 Nov 2003)

Hulk, 
We‘re trying not to discourage you here, honest. As you have now no doubt discovered there is a very thin line between good cocky but acceptable, and poser wannabee. 

What we‘re saying is think, before engaging mouth and, try not to cross that line.

Example on this board as a newbie and making comments about going to be a JTF2/Sniper/Ranger/Snake eater/SEAL/SAS/Arnie type/RAMBO might not be a wise career move.

Someone posting or lurking here just might be an instructor on a future course. They may develop a opinion of you based on that and then decide you ain‘t worth the effort to really train and advance towards those goals you are striving for. 

Play the "gray man" here (at least initially) and in training and if you have the stones you will move forward.

By the way your transgression over that line into wannabe land so far hasn‘t, and I stress the so far, been that bad. There have been (unfortunately) a few worse posers and wannabes here in the past. 

If you think anybody here‘s being hard on you, I suggest you go and look at their posts and how they were jumped on.


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## Private Snowball (29 Nov 2003)

I love the internet.


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## Sig_Des (30 Nov 2003)

Growing up in the army,
having been through cadets,
Kurrgan is right.

When in Basic, Don‘t brag about being in cadets and how well you did there, don‘t talk about who you know in the army (they may not like said persons), don‘t shoot off your mouth about caliber, muzzle velocity, whatever.

just shut up, do what your told, and get through the best you can. Why call attention to yourself when its just gonna earn you 25?


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## elscotto937 (30 Nov 2003)

I agree with some of you on here, especially those whose advice is to blend into the background. But this is until you get your feet wet, then ‘Hulk‘ if you got the stuff to back up your words get out there and let people know that you are confident. Confidence will get you a long way, and if you say you are going to do something and then you do it successfully, it will cause people to do a double take. I may have just restated in there words, what Danjanou said a couple of posts ago. So Hulk, I truely wish you success matching your statements with actions. Secondly, man you guys were hard on the 521 Aurora, the cadet who started these posts with a couple of questions. Anyway, just an observation, but he‘s pretty proud in the same many of you are proud of your accomplishments. For example, what if I were to say that the reserves are simply "older paid cadets."(imagine the hate mail I would receive) And belittled your [the reservists] experiences and knowledge. Hey all I‘m saying is cut the guy some slack, you insulted him and he defended with knowledge he had, maybe not the best weapons choice, but...
Lastly on a lesser not, Ghost a few weeks ago on this topic, I think it was you, you included Artillery soldier with clerks and medic in your comment of the ignorance of the Fighting Patrol.. hey we are combat arms... Man that is the first time that I have been included with the clerks and medics....but at least you didn‘t lump us in with the engineers....


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## winchable (30 Nov 2003)

"When in Basic, Don‘t brag about being in cadets and how well you did there"

Funny story about that.
On my basic, There were 5 guys who had been in the army cadets for quite some time, and they would always talk about how far they had gone in cadets. Cadets this, Cadets that, you get the idea. At the end of the course, only one of the original five had remained in, the others had quit. There were a couple theories as to why they had washed out, the biggest one was that they did not like starting out at as little fish in a big sea, when they had been sharks in a fish tank before.
Either way, nothing pisses everyone off more then ex-cadets making their own clique or acting like they are instructors. I‘m not saying that anyone here was going to do that, I just thought it was a good story related to what mopo_26 had said.


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## Slim (30 Nov 2003)

Even going Reg from being in the Militia. Whether you admit it or not they always seem to know and have set aside some " special activities" just for those who fall into the ‘reserves‘ catagory.
I remember thinking that I was quite the bad boy till I got to Cornwallis and was " invited" to take part in several " wake up " calls.
Did me a world of good in the end though...
By the time I got to Battle School I wouldn‘t even admit I‘d even heard of the reserves ( or anything else!)
 

I better clarify...Nothing at all wrong with the reserves or cadets...just that there is a time and place for all. 
Not everyone on the forum is a member of the CF and we should all be careful to portray ourselves in a professional way.


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## Da_man (30 Nov 2003)

yeah, and i can take on any army on my own.


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## Slim (30 Nov 2003)

> Originally posted by Da_man:
> [qb] yeah, and i can take on any army on my own.       [/qb]


Not sure I understand what that means there bud...


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## Enzo (30 Nov 2003)

We had a guy who was right out of it. Big kid, watched too many Vietnam war movies (why not, many of the kids in out PL did). From day one, he isolated himself, told anyone who would listen that he was going to be a sniper, looked forward to taking life and (I kid you not) upon being issued his C-7 quietly commented that he was getting sexually aroused. I don‘t know what he thought he was exactly. Pugil bouts were a wakeup, he folded nicely. Immunizations, had to be laid out on a gurney as the needles made him cry. Yet the attitude continued, and grew. It got to the point where it was him against the platoon. Easy target for the guys. I‘m a bit older, felt I had a responsibility to talk to him. Tried a few times. He just didn‘t want to listen. When I caught him in his underwear taking photo‘s of his C-7, I knew we definitely had a problem and some of us were concerned (a bloody Pyle in the making). When he began to make threatening statements to people in the platoon, we definitely had a problem. At one point, he commented about purchasing ammunition in Owen Sound for "personal use." Just ridiculous, as if we didn‘t have enough to deal with as we were on a Reg Force QL 2/3 (ice storm, don‘t ask) and time off was few and far between. You get the idea.

When I joined, I had ambitions to take the sniper course. For the most part, I kept that to myself. The guys I became close to, we‘d trade stories as to how we came to be where we were and how drunk we must‘ve been to have signed up for all this c*ck in the first place. Some wanted to be Gunner‘s, other‘s Combat Engineers, Medics, or Recce. A few thought that getting into Heavy Weapons was the trick, or even heading out eventually into SAR or an Airborne Co. You get the idea. Out of our PL, only 2-3 guys seriously contemplated becoming a Sniper, it wasn‘t about the hard work involved, we were already working hard. But the idea of taking a life in such a manner, that takes something, most guys would rather go about the job without having to deal with that. So as this other guy kept on about it, eventually, I snapped my tongue off once or twice. As I had similar ambitions, I didn‘t care to be included with him and his attitude offended me. To be honest, I was judging him by that point and I didn‘t think he was a good soldier - who was I to feel that way? I told him to wait for PWT. That actions were the determining factor (along with attitude and his was just too much). During the qualification‘s, he could barely pass. Turns out the noise of the rifle and the recoil bothered him. He required lots of TLC from our NCO‘s who were more than happy to oblige (turned out they had their eye on him from day one). I worked hard for my qualification, I arrived as an experienced shooter, but I learned from my NCO‘s, followed their lead and scored top shot. I happily accepted my crossed rifles for my dress greens and felt good about the work I had put in. 3 of us earned Marksman status, and I was hoping that coming out on top would be a consideration in my favour when the time came to apply for a position on sniper course.

At the end of the day however, our lives aren‘t always decided by us and rarely do our plans work out exactly as we thought that they would.

Neither of us made it through to the end. The NCO‘s waited for their opportunity and he was recoursed (about the only one who went without an injury or voluntarily) due to his attitude and demerits. I don‘t know what happened to him, I heard that he asked for a release. I do know that by the time he left us, he was broken. The guy was only 18. There‘s a long life left in front of him with dreams dashed and no one to blame but himself. I made some friends on that course, guy‘s I‘ll always remember. I don‘t consider him to be a friend, yet I‘ll remember him also. I wonder, what could any of us done differently to have helped him? Honestly, it wasn‘t up to us. He arrived with his mind set on how it was going to be and he didn‘t have the skills to match his attitude. And now, who knows where he is.

One thing is certain though, he isn‘t a sniper in the CF.


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## Slim (30 Nov 2003)

> Originally posted by Enzo:
> [qb] We had a guy who was right out of it...
> [/qb]


Enzo
Good message! Yes...how many of us can say that we also "had a guy" on GMT ( I‘m dating myself there!) who was weeded out eventually...and oddly enough the "guy" that needed to go in Battle School was a girl.
She seemed o.k. in the beginning but got progressivly weirder as the course went on. The "females in the combat arms" thing had just kicked off not to long before and the administration really tried to keep her. She would say all kinds of weird stuff (ie She had been a porn star!!?! She had been SHOT!!?! she had been...well you get the idea.) 
Anyway she lasted up till the field portion (14 weeks back then) and that was it. I don‘t know what became of her as the field in battleschool in the winter is a all-consuming experience where one doesn‘t have alot of time to ponder anything other than the current task!
When I got to the Regt. I found five or six young ladies of stellar reputation manning dvr and gunner positions. ( best tow gunner I‘ve ever seen was female!)
I have never objected to working with anyone as long as they do their share.
  :warstory:


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## elscotto937 (1 Dec 2003)

Che, Good Story I think I have met those guys; I think we all have...
 Che said: "At the end of the course, only one of the original five had remained in, the others had quit."

And I‘m sure it was the instructors fault they couldn‘t meet the standard


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## Danjanou (1 Dec 2003)

Enzo, good post, same as Che‘s and I think very relevant to this thread. As Slim noted I think we all have seen similar experiences in our varied military careers.

As you noted the NCO‘s were on to this guy from Day 1. Having taught quite a few GMTs (see Slim I can date myself too   ) I can certainly attest to this fact. It‘s something any instructor, watches for especially on recruit courses.

I saw my share of horror stories too, including more than one "tough guy Rambo wannabe social misfit" who folded at the easiest real task.

I think an advantage to this forum, denied to us old farts from the pre Internet era, is that someone really interested in choosing our life style (and that‘s what it is, not a job, not even a career but a calling that trust me stays with you long after you hang up the uniform) can come here and get some valid ideas of just what they are letting themselves in for. That includes how to act, and equally importantly, not to act.

Ok that‘s my two cents, well actually more like a nickels worth.  :warstory:


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## Enzo (1 Dec 2003)

Danjanou, too much truth in that last statement. The CF‘s a part of your, or it isn‘t. Someone at school recently jokingly reffered to me as an army snob. I had to laugh at that; not too far from the truth. I‘m surrounded by people who just don‘t understand why I want to return; as if getting injured was the best thing to happen to me? It just doesn‘t work that way. If it did, I‘d be married and working as an instructor at my local flying club or for a charter outfit by now.

And living on the coast, when I do manage to get past the medics, I have friends who think I should go for either the navy as a MARS or the Air Force as a chopper pilot (Sea Kings). One makes sense, the other‘s too much of a long shot, even if they are short pilots. Infantry‘s all I‘ve known. I‘m a product of growing up surrounded by Infrantymen most of my life. Go figure. Environment does affect one‘s development after all?

Sorry, not quite what the thread was about, just musing a bit. Back to topic


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## chrisf (22 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by Enzo:
> [QB] upon being issued his C-7 quietly commented that he was getting sexually aroused. [QB]


As attractive as I may find my rifle, I find that relationships such as those can jepordize a professional working relationship.


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## axeman (23 Dec 2003)

there are slots each and every "soldier" fills from the CO to the lowwest rifleman . And there is a form that states what weapon that person will be issued to use. Now in Op Appollo we added 
to that list .  but the list states the minimum
that each member will have , in Bosnia yes C-9‘s ARE TOO AGRESSIVE but so was the term  ROYAL CANADIAN ARMED FORCES.   :sniper:    :fifty:


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## Ex-Dragoon (23 Dec 2003)

I have never heard the CF referred to as the Royal Canadian Armed Forces and I have worn a uniform of one sort or the other since 1980. As for C9s being too aggressive, you see pics and news clips with guys with C9s in Bosnia.


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## axeman (24 Dec 2003)

The term RCAF is the  term that was gooten rid of about the time of unifacation it went to the CAF then it went to the CF . yes there are C9‘s being carried in Bosnia but now adays the carrying of them is starting to be toned down. yes i know that during my 2nd tour under SFOR the soldiers issued c9‘s were told to grab someones c7 that wasnt going out on patrol. quite a change from my UNPROFOR days of seeing if you could get the Platoon Warrant to issue extra grenades . 
  :fifty:


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## luck881 (24 Dec 2003)

THe RCAF is and always has been the Royal Canadian Air force, We were fromerly known as the Canadian ARMED Forces (CAF), after unification, but are now simply the Canadian Forces (CF)... perhaps "Armed" Pi$$ed someone off....
(there has been a Royal Canadian Navy, Royal Canadian Air Force, but never a Royal Canadian Army, so, knowing what we all know about traditon and heraldry, there would never have been a Royal Canadian Armed Forces after unification...)


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## Redeye (25 Dec 2003)

Luck881, you‘re right, the "Royal Canadian Armed Forces" absolutely never existed.  The RCAF and RCN disappeared with unification.  Axeman, check your equipment, I think some wires might be crossed.


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## axeman (25 Dec 2003)

my mistake gues thats what i get for being trundled around in the turret of a tua


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## Redeye (25 Dec 2003)

That‘s a pretty good explanation... I hear a TUA (though I‘ve never hitched a lift in one) brings new meaning to the term "movers ‘n shakers"!


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## Slim (25 Dec 2003)

TUA
Reach out and crush someone!!!


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## sm0ke (27 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by Danjanou:
> [qb]
> I think an advantage to this forum, denied to us old farts from the pre Internet era, is that someone really interested in choosing our life style (and that‘s what it is, not a job, not even a career but a calling that trust me stays with you long after you hang up the uniform) can come here and get some valid ideas of just what they are letting themselves in for. That includes how to act, and equally importantly, not to act.
> [/qb]


I‘ve been on this forum for months, and have only 12 or 13 posts.  I tend not to speak unless I have something somewhat relevant to say... Don‘t want to come across as the civi-newb     

As someone who‘s seriously looking at making his application in the near future, my favorite part of the day is to jump on these forums and read.  I don‘t mean to come on and quickly browse the new stuff, I spend literally hours in this place researching and re-reading.  I can say without a doubt the best resource for anyone looking at the military as a life option is to sit down and spend a few days going through these archives, and taking in what you guys have to say, and the resources you‘ve provided us with.  Nothing‘s been more informative than to read posts from guys like Enzo or Combat Medic, or Danjanou and Mike and Sig Op.  Much more reassuring to have at least a basic idea of what to expect, attitudes and procedures and people in general, when it comes time to take the leap.  

So in this respect, Dan couldn‘t be more accurate, as I‘m the prime example of the person he‘s describing in the quoted segment.  Being an internet jockey for a local ISP gives me plenty of free time, I really have to thank you guys for providing a very intelligent and informative area for those of us with a more than basic interest.


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