# Leadership



## Mediman14 (22 Jun 2015)

Please forgive me if this is not the right forum or place to post this. But I am looking for some advice, or thoughts. 
I general there is always resistance with changes within our Units, sections, platoons etc. Some are good valid points to consider. But what happens when your supervisor ( Capt) refuses to listen to you or listen to other subordinates. Without going into extreme details. I approached my subordinates and ask how things where going with the new changes that was forced upon us. I wrote down there concerns and brought them forward to my supervisor. His response was that these are not legit. 
I also made it clear, that as a Snr NCO I am unable to my duties as laid out and that I am unable to oversee the full operation as needed or develop subordinates. His response was " don't f---ing worry about it". I realize I just may of open a can of worms here. If this post is inappropriate please let me know.


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## Poacher434 (22 Jun 2015)

It all depends on what the instances are, if it is for the welfare of your members or if it is something that grossly contradicts some form of publication, than bypass that member within your chain.

Attempt to handle it at the lowest level, approach your supervisor and politely and professionaly outline your concerns, and ensure you have a couple COA's to rectify. Don't ever go into something with only complaints, if you have a complaint you should have a possible solution especially as a SR NCO.

If your supervisor still refuses to listen, start some documentation, bypass that member and move forward within the chain of command.

Thats just my advice, im sure there are others with lots more advice.


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## Mediman14 (22 Jun 2015)

I brought up solutions to the subordinates issues to my supervisor, especially when he is about publically embarrassed Jnr NCO's in front of the work place. Either way, he refuses to take listen. I feel bad for the no hook Pte's, and what they are going to experienced due to embarrassment. It's a tough pill to swallow.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Jun 2015)

Mediman14 said:
			
		

> I brought up solutions to the subordinates issues to my supervisor, especially when he is about publically embarrassed Jnr NCO's in front of the work place. Either way, he refuses to take listen. I feel bad for the no hook Pte's, and what they are going to experienced due to embarrassment. It's a tough pill to swallow.



Poacher nailed it, now carry on all good men! (and women)

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

 Edmund Burke


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## Underway (22 Jun 2015)

Do you not have a RSM or Cox'n to talk too, get some advice?  The Chiefs and PO's mess is another place to get advice.


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## medicineman (23 Jun 2015)

Underway beat me to the punch - chat with your CSM and see how that goes - they have the OC's ear(s).

MM


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## daftandbarmy (23 Jun 2015)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Underway beat me to the punch - *chat with your CSM and see how that goes - they have the OC's ear(s).*
> 
> MM



And that is why _my _ears are so big  ;D


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## Mediman14 (23 Jun 2015)

Underway said:
			
		

> Do you not have a RSM or Cox'n to talk too, get some advice?  The Chiefs and PO's mess is another place to get advice.



My unit is relatively small, just have a csm and a CO (Maj), no OC - A primary care manager (civie). I did approach the CSM, he said to me
"you are being to sensitive".


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## OldSolduer (23 Jun 2015)

Mediman14 said:
			
		

> My unit is relatively small, just have a csm and a CO (Maj), no OC - A primary care manager (civie). I did approach the CSM, he said to me
> "you are being to sensitive".



What are the issues here? We can't offer some advice unless we know some detail.


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## noneck (23 Jun 2015)

Hmmm a young Pl Comd at the Seaforths learned a very important life lesson many years ago...he wouldn't listen to his SNCO's or at least hear their opinions. He spent a very cold weekend exercise in Chilliwack without a sleeping bag that may or may not have been left in the armouries after being pulled off his ruck!


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## George Wallace (23 Jun 2015)

noneck said:
			
		

> Hmmm a young Pl Comd at the Seaforths learned a very important life lesson many years ago...he wouldn't listen to his SNCO's or at least hear their opinions. He spent a very cold weekend exercise in Chilliwack without a sleeping bag that may or may not have been left in the armouries after being pulled off his ruck!



Amazing how kit can go missing, or some thing fails to operate, or messages fail to get passed, or .......


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## Mediman14 (23 Jun 2015)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> What are the issues here? We can't offer some advice unless we know some detail.


the unit is relatively small medical clinic. There are three care delivery units that hold approx 15-20 pers in total. The officer in charge is an medical officer.
  The clinic usually see 60-100 patients a day. The current triage / traffic works fine. One particular MO wants to change a system that is not broke. The new system includes a no hook private to run the triage and be the traffic person. This person would dictate which member will see certain patients. On this system, the Sgt and the MCpl will work only as clinicians and to not to deal with any issues that arise plus having to listen to the no hook private. The MO feels that no issues ever arise in the mornings! ( Administrative, disciplinary, etc) The subordinates are confused and are exposed to uneccsary stress and embarrassment . I had an ogroup with my subordinates and aske them what is there concerns or issues that they have. I brought these issues to my supervisor (Capt)  he first told me that the Jnr NCO's issues are not legit  ( decrease morale, feeling embarrassed, etc) He then went on further to tell me I should book an appointment with the clerk to see him ( supervisor) also said the exact words " it's not your f--king place to worry about it".
I approached the CSM, he had said - " you are being to sensitive"
I know most people doesn't' changes in there workplace, but when people bring forth concerns that they have shouldn't leadership listen to these issues ? Not to to dismiss them?


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## SupersonicMax (24 Jun 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Amazing how kit can go missing, or some thing fails to operate, or messages fail to get passed, or .......



How professionnal...


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## daftandbarmy (24 Jun 2015)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> How professionnal...



It's generally a case of 'one good turn deserves another'. The offender usually has to figure it out the hard way after a few tries using the usual methods.

In war, in the infantry, a bullet sometimes solves the problem after all else fails, unfortunately. Welcome to our world.

In over 30 years of commissioned service I have never spoken to a subordinate like that. I think our Mediman has a legitimate beef here. Time to go over the offender's head IMHO.

(And Noneck, I forgive you  ;D)


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## SupersonicMax (24 Jun 2015)

Willingly and actively undermining someone (who is your boss nonetheless)  is not acceptable. Period. Passively well, I guess it's up to you.  Removing somebody's  sleeping bag from his kit: not acceptable.  Not telling somebody he is missing his sleeping bag: acceptable.

In mediaman's story we have 1 of 3 sides.  We are missing 2 sides before we can make a definitive call on whether or not it is a legitimate beef.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jun 2015)

Let's replace the word Supervisor with the real military term; superior officer.  That one and 'lawful commands'.

You've gone to the MWO/CSM and he said you are being too sensitive.  Stop and think about that and be honest with yourself, you might find you are.

This is the CAF and sometimes we just have to follow orders of our superior officers.  People, in this day and age, are getting this "union" mentality in a military workplace, and it doesn't work that way.

Other side of the coin to consider.


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Jun 2015)

If the order is lawful, it is the job of those under the CO that are in a position to enforce it, to take ownership of the order and ensure it's implementation. Not to question the CO's motives or reasoning. You have no idea what brought him to his decision or what his orders may have possibly been. He is also under no obligation to explain that to you. Your job is to carry out the order as if it were your own.


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## medicineman (24 Jun 2015)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Willingly and actively undermining someone (who is your boss nonetheless)  is not acceptable. Period.



Some people don't take a hint - seen it happen on a number of occasions, because said people were f&^ktards and unnecessarily risking subordinates' lives to prove "they were the boss".



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> In mediaman's story we have 1 of 3 sides.  We are missing 2 sides before we can make a definitive call on whether or not it is a legitimate beef.



I agree totally with that.



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You've gone to the MWO/CSM and he said you are being too sensitive.  Stop and think about that and be honest with yourself, you might find you are.
> 
> This is the CAF and sometimes we just have to follow orders of our superior officers.  People, in this day and age, are getting this "union" mentality in a military workplace, and it doesn't work that way.
> 
> Other side of the coin to consider.



Again, as Max mentioned, since we only have this dude/ette's side of things, we can only assume they might be a bit overly sensitive...however, the last time a Capt told me as a Sgt or even a MCpl that something that had everything to do with me "wasn't my beeping place" got a severe ear full - my place as an NCO is/was direct personnel management and leadership, not the administrator...likely the main reason I was a Cpl for so long, despite outstanding PER's.  Now, in my more diplomatic days, I would approach this a little more cautiously, though deal with it I would - for all we know, this happened in the hallway with others around.  I still have one side conversations to my civvy bosses where I'm dishing it out, but, unlike them to me, I give them the benefit of some privacy before I light them up.

To the OP, having worked in the same environment, perhaps even the same base, I'd suggest this (based upon what we've heard thus far) - gather your lambs together and have a motivational talk with them.  I'd choose this tack - along the lines of we don't gotta like it, just gotta do it to the best we can as laid out.  If it falls flat on it's face despite that, it'll have been demonstrated that it was a bad idea.  If it's just puttering along, you as the Sgt can then go to the perceived demi-God I/C, point out the data you've gathered (and make sure you do gather it), along with a suggested change.

I do have issue with one thing - a baby Pte should NOT be running triage.  In a real ER, the triage nurse is not someone just out of nursing school - they need a few years under their belt before they can do that, so they actually know what is sicker than it appears, know what can sit in chairs and what can't, etc.  There is nothing wrong with having someone under ranked than you doing it, though it's better to have someone with TI doing it, just saying.  Part of a medic's job is constantly dealing with people higher ranked than them and standing their ground if need be - good way of learning that.

PM me if you feel the need.

 :2c:

MM


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## Underway (24 Jun 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> ....to take ownership of the order....



This is so key and I see it ignored all the time.  By saying "I don't agree either but the sir says...." is leadership by default.  Drives me nuts and undermines your own leadership.  Instead try "I understand your concerns but until we have a better option lets getter done anyways the best we can".


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## mariomike (24 Jun 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> People, in this day and age, are getting this "union" mentality in a military workplace, and it doesn't work that way.



Perhaps it depends on which union? We had 30 seconds to comply. No discussion.


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## Blackadder1916 (24 Jun 2015)

I would agree with most of medicineman's comment.  However since you "can always tell a doctor, but can't tell him much", maybe you need to be more formal.  Service paper time?  Put it down in writing.  Not the complaints about personality clashes - that's what your having with the "supervisor".  If he is a f***tard and his responses to you personally are (in your opinion) inappropriate then deal with it as a separate issue.  As for the reorganization of the care unit (? - sorry, I left before all this new crap).  Compare the functioning of the section before and after re-org.  Use facts, number of pts seen (hourly, daily), percentage that had to be re-seen by an other (higher qualified) clinician, number of complaints, time required for training of re-assigned staff, job descriptions, existing limitations in what junior Med Techs can do, . . .


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## Mediman14 (24 Jun 2015)

thank you all for your thought. I would like to say that I am far from sensitive. I just had enough of this continuous type of  this kind of stuff in this unit. this is notthe first time that this particular officer have spoken like this. Nothing ever gets rectified appropriate.
 If I was to talk to my supervisor or to my subordinates that way. I would
D probably hang for it!

I'm OK for changes if it's needed. But I personally feel that at least changes should be Discussed before proceeding. When I speak to my subordinates and say that we will try things this way, I ask for their thoughts (just in case I' missing something) and the reason why for the change, so that they are not blind sided.

Like I said, I'm OK with changes, but I don't need to be talked to in an aggressive tone.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Jun 2015)

“There’s a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates.”

– General George Patton


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## OldSolduer (24 Jun 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> “There’s a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates.”
> 
> – General George Patton



Bingo. And Lew MacKenzie, Rick Hillier and Uncle Walt N will agree. I'm sure at least one other GOFO will agree.....


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## medicineman (25 Jun 2015)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I would agree with most of medicineman's comment.  However since you "can always tell a doctor, but can't tell him much", maybe you need to be more formal.  Service paper time?  Put it down in writing.  Not the complaints about personality clashes - that's what your having with the "supervisor".  If he is a f***tard and his responses to you personally are (in your opinion) inappropriate then deal with it as a separate issue.  As for the reorganization of the care unit (? - sorry, I left before all this new crap).  Compare the functioning of the section before and after re-org.  Use facts, number of pts seen (hourly, daily), percentage that had to be re-seen by an other (higher qualified) clinician, number of complaints, time required for training of re-assigned staff, job descriptions, existing limitations in what junior Med Techs can do, . . .



What's funny about the comments about obeying orders is, ironically, the guy not obeying orders was the MO in question.  When the Primary Care Renewal Initiative started, we had dictated to us, from the DGHS Herself, our policies and procedures on how the CDU's and MIR's would be run.  As junior and mid level leaders, it was the morale nightmare our JLC instructors hoped would never happen to us.  Our junior medics were totally marginalized, as were junior supervisors...I had it out on a number of occasions with the civilian coneheads in charge of us, not to mention some of our own officers.  It didn't help that I was the only MCpl CDU NCO I/C and the others were Sgt's.  Didn't help that my CDU - RMC - was also at the time physically removed from the rest of the unit.  The day prior to our trial starting, I went up to the Base to talk to the NO that was named the Primary Care Manager - we had no SOP book in our office...she told me that there was only one and it was going back to Ottawa that night.  My mouth just dropped open - and she started laying into me about getting on board and such...in the hallway in front of a number of people.  I pretty much snapped - I lit her up, told her I was doing my part trying to keep a mutiny in check and since this is a trial, we have to do things literally by the numbers for it to work or fail and in order to do that, the reference was required and no other unit in the CF does anything without their SOP book handy.  

I gather her and the creature we nicknamed "The Bridge Troll" spent to the wee hours in Staples pounding out copies of the SOP book, since not only my clerk, but my own unit manager and myself were the proud owners of our PCRI SOP's the next morning.

I'm not going to go into the number of times "The Bridge Troll" slighted me in particular and others in general, during the three months prior to my posting to Gagetown during that trial, but the favorite day I had was when a bunch of us ganged up on and lit up her sous chef about how things were going - we had her in tears in about 45 seconds.

As has been mentioned before, you have your orders, so go...but I'll reiterate that you do need to motivate your soldiers to keep them from snapping.  Make sure you keep notes and everyone else in the various tasks do too, including how much admin is getting messed up or missed.  Also, ensure your CSM is engaged since if there aren't any SNCO's managing flow or things go pear shaped, they will be the go to person for any complaints or issues that should really be dealt with at your level - things might change if their office door is being knocked on every 5 seconds.  My last unit where I was often acting as Clinic WO, my office was right in the waiting area of the MIR...I could fly out in a heart beat if needed, but my Sgt's and MCpl's dealt with most things.

Chin up, but don't lead with it.

MM

MM


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jun 2015)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Chin up, but don't lead with it.
> 
> MM
> 
> MM



Can we have some disgruntled medics in our platoons?  Platoon medics are awesome.


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## medicineman (25 Jun 2015)

Get some physician assistant jobs open back up in BC and I'd happily come back and run your UMS  ;D.

MM


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