# Uniforms at CMR



## ouellette9 (23 Jan 2013)

Hey everyone! 

I have a simple question: when you go outside of the RMC's campus, do you wear the CADPAT or the RMC uniform? (or another uniform) And do you always wear it when you are not on the campus?

I did a research but I didn't find what i wanted. Maybe I didn't search the right key words.

Thank you!


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## MikeL (23 Jan 2013)

From what I saw,  first year RMC Cadets wore their black(?) uniform everywhere(even off duty).  After that,  you can wear civilian clothing when finished for the day.


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## ouellette9 (23 Jan 2013)

Ok thanks! So you never wear the CADPAT outside?


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## Robert0288 (23 Jan 2013)

I've seen some of them do exams in CADPAT, also I think some engineer students where doing some surveying outside in CADPAT as well.


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## SIROEW (23 Jan 2013)

What I've been told by friends attending there is that first year students wear the number fours (the blue dress uniform with the wedge) off campus. Scarlets are for more ceremonial occasions.


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## MikeL (23 Jan 2013)

Do you want too go out an about in CADPAT?


When I was in Kingston,  I never saw RMC Cadets in CADPAT,  always in their black(?) uniform  or civilian dress.

I assume CADPAT is only worn for PT, and any training that requires it too be worn.


I was never in RMC;  so I'm just going off what I saw during my time in Kingston.


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## ouellette9 (23 Jan 2013)

I was just wondering... I didn't know that you must wear the Scarlets outside.. Thank you!


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## MikeL (23 Jan 2013)

ouellette9 said:
			
		

> I was just wondering... I didn't know that you must wear the Scarlets outside.. Thank you!



My bad,  the Scarlets are not the daily uniform.  They wear whatever the black(?) uniform is called when they go outside the school as a first year.


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## ouellette9 (23 Jan 2013)

No problem. Ok only on first year?


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## MikeL (23 Jan 2013)

Yes,  as far as I know it is only the first year students that have to wear the uniform all the time.


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## yoman (24 Jan 2013)

First years must wear this when they leave the campus (known as the number 4's) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v414/katalystic/n501571784_1047004_265.jpg

The everyday uniform is this (known as the number 5's) http://classof1955.rmcclub.ca/images/RMC%20Photos/Recent/Reunion%20Weekend%2008/New-Uniform.jpg

CADPAT/NCD's are worn on Wednesday's and for other designated activities.


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Jan 2013)

yoman said:
			
		

> First years must wear this when they leave the campus (known as the number 4's) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v414/katalystic/n501571784_1047004_265.jpg
> 
> The everyday uniform is this (known as the number 5's) http://classof1955.rmcclub.ca/images/RMC%20Photos/Recent/Reunion%20Weekend%2008/New-Uniform.jpg
> 
> CADPAT/NCD's are worn on Wednesday's and for other designated activities.



Those poor lads in the second photo have no left arms. Sad that.

My mistake. There's some without right arms also.


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## PMedMoe (24 Jan 2013)

JRack said:
			
		

> At RMC you are required to wear your 4's when you leave the campus outside of duty hours when you are in firsty year only, at CMR Saint-Jean there is no requirement to wear a uniform when you leave the campus.



Why the double standard?


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## Bluebulldog (24 Jan 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Why the double standard?



op:

....this oughta be good.......


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## PMedMoe (24 Jan 2013)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> op:
> 
> ....this oughta be good.......



Mostly just curious, but whether Franco or Anglo, should they not be held to the same standard?


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## SIROEW (24 Jan 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Whether Franco or Anglo, should they not be held to the same standard?



Just because you attend CMR does not mean you're French. The students in prep year are all from Quebec, but a large number of first year university students there have English as their primary language.


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## Bluebulldog (24 Jan 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Mostly just curious, but whether Franco or Anglo, should they not be held to the same standard?



Absolutely Moe, one standard across the board. 

I'm actually looking forward to some of the responses.....if there are any.

Cheers.


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## PMedMoe (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> Just because you attend CMR does not mean you're French. The students in prep year are all from Quebec, but a large number of first year university students there have English as their primary language.



To be clear, I was referring to the _schools_ (and locations), not the students.



			
				Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> Absolutely Moe, one standard across the board.
> 
> I'm actually looking forward to some of the responses.....if there are any.
> 
> Cheers.



Yeah, I don't expect any either.


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## SIROEW (24 Jan 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> To be clear, I was referring to the _schools_ (and locations), not the students.



My bad   Just the way it was worded I guess.


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## exgunnertdo (24 Jan 2013)

I don't think it's a "double standard."  The colleges are two different schools, with two different commandants.  Each can have their own dress policies.


As to why each thinks their policy is the correct policy, that's a different question


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## PMedMoe (24 Jan 2013)

JRack said:
			
		

> It could be partly due to the fact that the town of Saint-Jean is not very welcoming to the military. There have been a multitude of cases over the years of conflicts between the locals and the CMR cadets and recruits at CFB Saint-Jean.



I was going to post earlier, that I bet that was the reason.  Same thing happened in Cornwallis back in the day but they never changed the walking out dress because of it.


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## Strike (24 Jan 2013)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Why the double standard?



As previously mentioned, I think it has more to do with the people in charge.  Much the same as one base will allow fleece toques and another will not.


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## PMedMoe (24 Jan 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> As previously mentioned, I think it has more to do with the people in charge.  Much the same as one base will allow fleece toques and another will not.



I suppose.  I guess rules are rules, regardless of how stupid they are.  Just my  :2c: but I believe both schools should be held to the same standard.  but then again, I remember the different end results (of recruits) when basic was done in Cornwallis and Saint-Jean....


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## Danjanou (24 Jan 2013)

So what is RMC ( and CMR's too) policy on fleece toques then?  :stirpot:


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## Journeyman (24 Jan 2013)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> So what is RMC ( and CMR's too) policy on fleece toques then?  :stirpot:


Hey, if you're going to stir the pot, ask why we need two separate MilCols, and why wasn't Royal Roads brought back from the dead.

   op:


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## SIROEW (24 Jan 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Why we need two separate MilCols.



"We are restoring this college to what it was before and giving francophones their place in the military." (para #5)

"It will be easier to attract future francophone officers." (para #18)

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=9f2d534a-e885-429f-9f49-a61f8b361306&k=9824%20'


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## Journeyman (24 Jan 2013)

Thank you Captain Obvious.    :


Since you were so effective with that one, how about "why would someone use a Military Engineer crest as their avatar when they're not even qualified to wear a CF cornflake"?  I know if I was an Engineer, I might be a little miffed that someone was trying to pass themselves off as a fellow Thumperhead.


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## SIROEW (24 Jan 2013)

I'm sorry, but where exactly did I write that I was an Engineer...


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## Journeyman (24 Jan 2013)

Wow.  Short too.....'cause that was clearly over your head.   :not-again:


There's a tradition......(damn, too many syllables)...._thing_ here, that one does not use a badge (branch, corps, skill, etc) that one is not entitled to wear -- it smacks of being a Walt....a poser.....a teller of untruths....


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## SIROEW (24 Jan 2013)

Damn you're witty...

I'm not too sure if you knew this, but the words _tradition_ and _policy_ are definitely not synonyms.

And there was no need to change the topic of the thread to start an argument with someone who is practically a third of your age. Choose your battles.


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## PMedMoe (24 Jan 2013)

op:


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## yoman (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> The students in prep year* are all from Quebec*, but a large number of first year university students there have English as their primary language.



Not true. There were a number of prep years while I was there that were from other provinces. 

As for why one college has to wear a uniform in first year and the other does not... I believes it comes down to tradition for RMC. As for CMRSJ, I agree that it would not be wise for the cadets there to wear a uniform at all times when leaving the campus. 

I'd be curious to know if the first years had to wear a uniform outside of the campus back before they closed CMRSJ (pre-1995).


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## Journeyman (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> And there was no need to change the topic of the thread to start an argument with someone who is practically a third of your age. Choose your battles.


Age? Really?   :

If you feel you're being unfairly treated here, outside of your Recruiting threads, the Report to Mod button is to the lower right.


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## Blackadder1916 (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> Damn you're witty...
> 
> I'm not too sure if you knew this, *but the words tradition and policy are definitely not synonyms*.
> 
> And there was no need to change the topic of the thread to start an argument with someone who is practically a third of your age. Choose your battles.



But they are also not antonyms.  Both tradition (whether written or oral, official or unofficial) and policy (usually written and officially sanctioned) can be equally mandatory and enforceable.  If you should ever have the opportunity to serve in the CF, you will find that some traditions are held in higher regard, more widely accepted and enforced more strenuously than some officially written policies.  But that may be neither here nor there since this site is not officially associated with DND or CF.  However it does have a thread of written guidelines including one post that suggests the exact behaviour for which JM chided you for not following.

You are a child youth young man (?) who aspires to a career in the military and it is likely that you have come to this site to seek guidance on how to accomplish that goal as well as gain some insight into how soldiers think and act (role modeling).  Well, tradition is often very important to most soldiers (even those of us who have hung up the uniform, it maybe even more important to us) and they don't take kindly to upstarts who think they can use the badges and devices that we hold in some esteem as they please.  Adopting a childish reaction to a legitimate suggestion is not the approach to take, especially if you want adults to take you seriously.


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## Loachman (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> Damn you're witty...
> 
> I'm not too sure if you knew this, but the words _tradition_ and _policy_ are definitely not synonyms.
> 
> And there was no need to change the topic of the thread to start an argument with someone who is practically a third of your age. Choose your battles.


Regardless, please consider this a polite request, from somebody almost his age, to change your avatar until you have earned that badge.


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## SIROEW (24 Jan 2013)

When I mentioned your age, I meant that most grown men don't normally go out and seek internet debates over trivial matters (such as an avatar). Once again, choose your battles.


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## Kat Stevens (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> When I mentioned your age, I meant that most grown men don't normally go out and seek internet debates over trivial matters (such as an avatar). Once again, choose your battles.



I sweated and bled under that hat badge for nearly 24 years, I don't find it a trivial thing in the least.  It was a proud day when I put it up, and one of the saddest of my life when I took it down.


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> When I mentioned your age, I meant that most grown men don't normally go out and seek internet debates over trivial matters (such as an avatar). Once again, choose your battles.



Hey junior I highly suggest you go on listen silence for awhile....

You may also want to read this post Milnet.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ especially the part which deals with regimental avatars and the like.....



MILNET.CA MENTOR


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## SIROEW (24 Jan 2013)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Hey junior I highly suggest you go on listen silence for awhile....
> 
> You may also want to read this post Milnet.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ especially the part which deals with regimental avatars and the like.....
> 
> ...



Regimental Avatars-Before you use a regiment/units capbadge as an avatar give it some thought.
Yes it's an unofficial site. You could put the PPCLI, RCR, 82nd airborne, SAS, JTF, some reserve regiment avatar up as your own. _*Theres no rule saying you can't.*_ If your not in that specific regiment your probably going to take flak from people who are. It's just a picture yes but some people work VERY hard to get to where they are and might not like you using it (Which will lead 99% of the people to believe your actually IN that regiment) Who really cares? Well if you want to join the RCRs and you have some questions about the regiment BUT you pissed off the guys currently serving with them where are you going to be? You might not get the answers your looking for. Personally I'm not going to be a jerk to someone using my regiments capbadge as an avatar but I won't be all buddy buddy with them either.  I don't like the idea of someone not in my regiment using the avatar because if they are a jerk, act like an idiot or start posting stupid and wrong information, it will make MY regiment look bad.


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## Container (24 Jan 2013)

You didnt quote that or attribute that to anyone. I honestly believed you wrote that about yourself being in a unit.

Your avatar and post led me to believe you wrote and believed those things about your own service....of which you have none.



			
				SIROEW said:
			
		

> Regimental Avatars-Before you use a regiment/units capbadge as an avatar give it some thought.
> Yes it's an unofficial site. You could put the PPCLI, RCR, 82nd airborne, SAS, JTF, some reserve regiment avatar up as your own. _*Theres no rule saying you can't.*_ If your not in that specific regiment your probably going to take flak from people who are. It's just a picture yes but some people work VERY hard to get to where they are and might not like you using it (Which will lead 99% of the people to believe your actually IN that regiment) Who really cares? Well if you want to join the RCRs and you have some questions about the regiment BUT you pissed off the guys currently serving with them where are you going to be? You might not get the answers your looking for. Personally I'm not going to be a jerk to someone using my regiments capbadge as an avatar but I won't be all buddy buddy with them either.  I don't like the idea of someone not in my regiment using the avatar because if they are a jerk, act like an idiot or start posting stupid and wrong information, it will make MY regiment look bad.


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## SIROEW (24 Jan 2013)

Container said:
			
		

> You didnt quote that or attribute that to anyone. I honestly believed you wrote that about yourself being in a unit.
> 
> Your avatar and post led me to believe you wrote and believed those things about your own service....of which you have none.



It was meant for NFLD Sapper, and since he posted the link, I assumed he read it.


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## dangerboy (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> It was meant for NFLD Sapper, and since he posted the link, I assumed he read it.



But did you read it and understand it. Particularly the part after the segment you underlined, explaining why people don't like it.  To earn the right to wear the Engineer Cap Badge is not easy, you have to go through a lot of training before you are presented with it.  Not everyone that tries out succeeds, so the one that do are justifiably proud of earning the right to wear it.


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## PPCLI Guy (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> When I mentioned your age, I meant that most grown men don't normally go out and seek internet debates over trivial matters (such as an avatar). Once again, choose your battles.



I take it that you are somewhere between 16 and 19

In the interest of full disclosure, I am 50 years old, and so what follows may be considered by some to be youth-bashing.

As near as I can tell from your posts, you are not yet in the military - although I grant that you may be at RMC or CMR, which is kind of like being in the military.

Again, in the interest of full disclosure, I have been in uniform for 33 years, 25 of them in the Regular Force, and so what follows may be considered by some as civvie or newbie bashing.

So, with that preamble, you are completely off-base on this one.  I have worn four capbadges in my career (the cornflake for 6 weeks and the Infantry one for a scant 4 months), and I have served in three other Regiments (where I was not granted the privilege of wearing the capbadge, irrespective of the positions I may have held).  Trust me when I tell you that the capbadge is a symbol of one's* earned* membership in a very discerning fellowship of fellow soldiers. It is not an honour that one can bestow upon themselves - rather it is offered to you once you earn it.

As such, I think that you are actually dishonouring Sappers everywhere by assuming a membership that you have not earned.

As to ageism, you had better get used to be told the hard truth by people substantially older (and more experienced) than you if you are thinking of pursuing a career in the military.

Just a thought.


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## Danjanou (24 Jan 2013)

SIROEW I can see that your time here on the site and most liely in the CF will be both long and rewarding.  :

That young one was sarcasm one of several aspects of military life you apparently have yet to grasp. You have been asked nicely to do something I would seriously suggest you do it or it wil be done for you.

JM in answer to your question simple I've been to RR there would be no need for fleece toques there. No need means no dress regs controversy, therefore no reason whatever to reactivate the place.


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## jwtg (25 Jan 2013)

The original question about CADPAT in town led to a discussion of which uniforms are worn at which college in town, which led to an entertaining exchange on cap badges.

To the OP: At RMC, when we go into town during business hours (0800-1630 usually), we do so in dress of the day, which is, as has been mentioned, 5's (day to day college uniform- white shirt, black pants) for Mon/Tues/Thurs/Fri, and CADPAT/NCD on Wednesday.  So, if you want to walk around town in combats, you do so during business hours of a working day.  

The rest has been said but I will summarize: 1st years are required to wear 4's (the navy blue uniform) into town for the duration of their first year when they go into town after duty hours.


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## Loachman (25 Jan 2013)

SIROEW said:
			
		

> choose your battles.



Wise advice from somebody.

You should heed it, Mr SIROEW.


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## 211RadOp (25 Jan 2013)

jwtg said:
			
		

> The rest has been said but I will summarize: 1st years are required to wear 4's (the navy blue uniform) into town for the duration of their first year when they go into town after duty hours.



Having never gone to RMC, but having been in Kingston for a long time, I have seen this on many occasions.  My question is, do they have an authorized warm jacket they can wear with the 4s?  Last night when I left work at 2100, with a temp of a balmy -20ish, I saw a Cadet crossing the causeway without any sort of overcoat/winter coat.


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## Privateer (25 Jan 2013)

Building on the post by 211RadOp, I have a greatcoat that I purchased from a surplus store in approximately 2001.  I don't have it with me for specifics, but its tag indicates that it was issued by CMR, and it even has someone's name and last three written on it (largely illegible now).  The coat is dark grey fabric, with two columns of four "brass" buttons on the front, and three "brass" buttons in a horizontal line on the back.  Can anyone tell me during what years this item was issued?  My Google-fu has failed.  Thanks.


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## jwtg (25 Jan 2013)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> Having never gone to RMC, but having been in Kingston for a long time, I have seen this on many occasions.  My question is, do they have an authorized warm jacket they can wear with the 4s?  Last night when I left work at 2100, with a temp of a balmy -20ish, I saw a Cadet crossing the causeway without any sort of overcoat/winter coat.


RMC Cadets are issued a gabardine along with their 4's, as well as a garbage bag rain jacket, so there is no need for them to be unprotected from the elements.

That being said, not all of them take advantage of the gear they're issued, so if you see an RMC cadet freezing in the middle of the winter, the cause is probably that they refuse to wear the appropriate issued gear.


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## SeR (1 Apr 2013)

Yes, this conversation did end a few months ago, but it never hurts to throw in some pertinent information.

For anyone who is interested in the different uniforms at RMC, follow these four steps:

1) http://www.forces.ca/interactive/rmc/kingston/index.html
2) _English_ (or _French_)
3) _Leadership_
4) _Uniforms_

Enjoy!


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## ouellette9 (2 Apr 2013)

Thanks! That's a good information!


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