# Reservists in the civilian police??



## sperl121 (28 Aug 2007)

After completing my university degree I was unsure if I wanted to join the Reg force or become a civilian police officer.  This past summer I completed my BMQ/SQ courses with the reserves and was hoping to apply to civilian police forces ASAP as I have already attained my OACP certificate.  This way I was hoping to have my cake and eat it to by being both a soldier and a police officer.
	After getting back from course I have been in contact with a few recruiters from different forces within Ontario but I do not seem to be getting any solid answers as to what kind of participation I can have in the reserves if I am also a police officer.  So my question is going out to any reservists out there who are also civilian police.
	Basically I want to know how much military training would I be able to do while still fulfilling my commitment to a civilian police force?  Would I be able to do weekend exercises, and would there be any chance of doing any summer courses?  I realize summer courses would probably require a leave of absence from the police but none of the recruiters have been able to answer if this would be allowed at all.
I am worried that if I do become a police officer I would be unable to participate to the level I would like to with the reserves. I am not saying I want to go away to course every summer but I am just wondering what the opportunities I might have are.  So in general my question is can I be both a successful reserve soldier as well as civilian police officer?  The forces I have been looking at joining are Toronto, York, and waterloo.  My reservist trade is armoured soldier with my unit being out of Toronto.

Thankyou for any help!! 

(My apologies if this question has already been addressed I could only find information on reservists joining the RCMP)


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## geo (28 Aug 2007)

If the reservists who worked for me in the past is anything to go by, 
In your early years with the Police, you may find that the shiftwork will work against you some of the time.
Unit training at the time you are working...

However, these guys are motivated and did make it work....


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## Sig_Des (28 Aug 2007)

I've seen guys able to balance the workload with a Municipal Police Force (And Firefighting Service as well, for that matter) and some of the parade requirements.

But for most, that was one night a month, just enough to not go NES. Fitting in one night or one day on a weekend isn't too hard. But these are guys who had their qualification courses BEFORE joining the services.

These same guys have been unable to go on excersizes or take certain courses (saw one guy had to turn down a Resistance to Interrogation Instructor course), due to their workload.

Weekend excersizes would be easier, but summer courses might be stretching it a bit. Particularly if you aren't single.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Aug 2007)

Wait for zipperhead cop. You'll get an answer right from the coalface.


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## George Wallace (28 Aug 2007)

Tough call.  Calls for a lot of coordination on many fronts.

I have a guy who is a city cop who VOT'ed to our unit long before I got here.  He has to submit his Lve plans up to a year in advance with his Force (He is an investigator and "Breath Tech").  He had a Lve planned where he had two months off to take his 5's Crse and just before going on Crse, someone adjusted the dates of the Crse one day and as he couldn't be there for the last day of Crse due to a Court date, he was bumped off the Crse.  Two years later he hasn't received his Qualifications.  This year, it was the Police Force sending him away on Career Crses that disrupted his Mil Qual Crses.  

Definitely a balancing act.


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## noneck (28 Aug 2007)

My unit has several Muni cops (To include the CO and the CSM), each PD has different military leave policies and some are more supportive than others. A lot will also depend on the individual member's drive and motivation. You may want to give CFLC a call and ask them about individual PD's and if they have formally signed off in support of reservists. If they have signed off, then you may be able to obtain copies of their policy as they are usually a public document....time spent on recce and all that jazz!

Out here on the Left Coast some of the Muni's offer 10 days paid time off for training. You collect your full pay and then return your army pay to the Force. If a Force does not have a PRes policy then you may have to sell the benefits to your employer, CFLC will be happy to assist with that.

Noneck


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## gate_guard (28 Aug 2007)

It depends on your shifting schedule. The one the VPD works off of makes it easy for me to make at least half of the training days. Weekend ex's are a little tougher but if you are able to accumulate/bank ot hours and you have an understanding boss/squad, you should be able to make most of those as well. The yearly exercises such as Cougar Salvo would likely require you booking annual leave. Courses are tougher, I hope you would have completed your trades training (BIQ/QL3 whatever it is now) before getting hired. I'm not sure what you're facing in terms of police academy training but when I was at the academy, I was basically on ED&T for that entire year.

As noneck said, try to get a look at the regulations and procedures manual (RPM) for the department you're applying for (they may call it something different). This is akin to the QR&O's of the CF. My dept's RPM lays out what kind of leave is available for military training (paid leave for some, leave w/out pay for others) as well as opportunities to deploy on operations. I've been lucky as my dept is very supportive of reservists on the job and this is reflected in the RPM's.

On a side note, as a new guy you don't want to be rocking the boat too much to start off(ie asking for time off all the time).


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## Donut (28 Aug 2007)

It will also depend greatly on what trade you're in, and what the tng requirements for the trade are.

I know several Lower Mainland PC, including PMT9D who you can find on here from time to time.  Our CSM is a West Van PD member, as well as another VPD member (MCpl Medic VOT to Int Op)

The Health Services requires upwards of 45 parade days a year to maintain any semblance of clinical proficiency, almost impossible to accomplish while working rotating shifts.

I don't believe any of them have enough time to maintain their skills to be truly empolyable in trade, and have either left, are leaving, or moved to admin-only type positions.  Other trades, as NoNeck and GateGuard have pointed out, have their own issues.


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## sperl121 (30 Aug 2007)

thanks for the replies.

I think my plan is to hopefully get on as many courses as I can over the next few months and either get on a reg force dp1 or coyote course (if thats even possible) or wait until the summer then do my dp1. Maybe even do a tour if I could be so lucky. Then at least when hired by a police force I will have enough courses to be somewhat of any asset to my unit even if I cannot attened 100% of the time.


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## IrishCanuck (1 Sep 2007)

Wait until you actually get on with a police force before you ponder this problem much more.


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## rregtc-etf (16 Oct 2007)

In my experience most militia - police guys can handle the workload, and I would be the first to congratulate them if they are able to stick with it.  In my case shift scheduling combined with family commitments and friends getting out for roughly the same reasons .....was the deciding factor to hand in my kit (with the exception of my CD). As long as you re a young guy without a load of other commitments...go for it.   Military experience will serve you daily, especially when dealing with idiot bosses in the police dept.


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## geo (16 Oct 2007)

I should point out that while the individual has to be dedicated to stick with it, the unit must think a whole lot of him too -to stick with him & put up with the absences & problems brought on by his shiftwork, etc.


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## zipperhead_cop (17 Oct 2007)

Hey there, sperl121.  This topic got under my radar, and I just noticed it today. 
As mentioned, each police department is different with regards to how supportive to the military they are.  Not surprisingly, if you belong to a big city service, RCMP or a provincial department you have a better chance at getting time off, since you as an individual make up a smaller percentage of the workforce there.  
I tried to do the double job thing for a while early in my police career and found it difficult.  I was a troop leader, and while I was working my old job I could get as much time off as I wanted to.  Great in the PRes world.  Once I got on the job, it seemed the unit training schedule was created to guarantee that I wouldn't have it line up with a weekend off.  I ended up going on the Supp Reserve List for several years, since I was not going to have a troop and hated paper work.  That proved to be a bad idea since things changed pretty completely while I was gone.  As for these days, my department is very supportive, and is allowing one of our other guys and myself to deploy on TF 3-08 starting in January.  That is pretty much a 14 month leave of absence. 
Get all the course you can, and then try to get in somewhere.  That is your best bet.


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## geo (17 Oct 2007)

too true Zipper... 
In our unit, we had to +/- bend over backwards to accomodate my two Sgts for those 1st couple of years.
They were taken out of the regular unit taskings.  We gave them special taskings that could tolerate their time availability... Used em to develop a program on the small arms trainer, supervise & / or complete projects we never seemed to get around to doing on training days... it worked, they continued to be visible at the unit & known by the old AND new guys.  

Much better than being a name on a list that never manages to show up - where you lose your reputation as a good NCO


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## Osotogari (19 Nov 2007)

Just remember that if your civilian workload becomes a bit much and you feel like you have to get out for longer than ED&T will allow, then go on supplemental reserve instead of getting out completely.  It will be a lot easier to get back in.


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## OBERLEUTNANT ZUR SEE (14 Feb 2008)

I know that in the Militia there seems to be more mandatory training weekends than the Naval Reserve. The Naval Reserve has been very felxible for police officers and takes into consideration the type of work you do. That being said.. each NRD is different and has a different 'style'. I could imagine that another NRD missing some nights could be an issue. Best advice: get to know your DivO well and communicate with him/her the issue before it happens. For all the guys/gals out there doing both jobs ..Bravo Zulu!


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## mikehawc1 (29 Feb 2008)

Greetings all;

I have just learned of all of your queries into this subject and have some info to offer based on experience and recent current events. I joined the Calgary Police Service in 1988 after serving in the Reg Fce from 81-88. I transferred to the Pri Res and had to work hard with each of my respective CPS commanders to be able to take part in trg and summer concentrations. I did take some holiday or accumulated time dependant on how much I time I needed but I also was placed on special duties by some of my bosses so it did not impact my annual leave bank. In 1994 I took a leave of absence for 1 year to serve with 1 PPCLI on Op Harmony Roto 4 as a CIMIC LO. When I returned I served with the Calg Hghrs until 2000 and attempted to take staff college but had to withdraw due to the time commitment. The CPS changed to a different shifting schedule and flexibility was no longer the rule of the day. The CF res policy was also no longer flexible for min time required before being placed on NES. 

I went on the sup list until 2006 and returned to the pri res at my previous rank. The City of Calgary has recently announced a new Military Leave policy that is likely the leader in the country. Here are some of the highlights;

1. Members of the Calgary Police Service who are also members of the Armed
Forces Reserve and who are not probationary members may apply in writing to
the Chief of Police for a leave of absence with pay in order to participate in
Reservist training, domestic relief operations, peacekeeping duties or military
operations that require the reservist to be away from work during regular work
hours. Requests must be submitted with a minimum of two (2) months notice.
2. Subject to operational needs, the Chief of Police may grant paid Armed Forces
Leave for a period of up to twenty-four (24) months. During the approved leave
period, the member's pay and benefit coverage with the Government of Canada
will be harmonized to ensure continuity of regular salary benefits and pension as
well as the continuation of service accumulations for seniority and vacation.

Essentially if someone is employed in the CF and takes part in any training or a deployment and their financial status will be markedly affected by that service, the City of Calgary will top up all pay and benefits including family medical coverage to insure the member is not affected in any way.  Also, their job is secure and military service will not affect a members ability to apply for courses, promotion, etc.

The CFLC was an integral part of drafting this policy and if any of you are interested in taking it to your employers, police or otherwise, check it out.


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## George Wallace (29 Feb 2008)

Welcome to Army.ca and Milnet.ca Forums.

Have you been down to the CFRC yet and investigated their programs on informing Employers of what the CF and Primary Reserves are all about?  The CFRC has information on programs to educate employers, educators at all levels, local governments, etc of what the Reserves are about and do.  They have developed information packages for Reservists to present to their employers and teachers to assist them in being permitted to conduct their training.  There are also programs whereby employers, civic leaders, and educators can go out and spend a day with a Unit in the Field and experience some of what it is like to be a Reservist in the CF.  It may be a worthwhile endeavour to investigate.


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## zipperhead_cop (8 Mar 2008)

mikehawc1 said:
			
		

> The City of Calgary has recently announced a new Military Leave policy that is likely the leader in the country. Here are some of the highlights;



Wow.  That is fantastic.  Clearly, the CF is a bit more of a priority out your way.  As it stands right now, with my pay loss and pension buy back, I'm looking at roughly $25,000 out of pocket to go play in the Sandbox.


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## Donut (8 Mar 2008)

I've got a City of Calgary EMS employee with me here in KAF, and I have to agree that the City of Calgary as an employer is probably one of the most supportive employers I've run across.  His terms and conditions of leave for military service are far superior to mine from the Government of BC, and also beat out City of Vancouver and the other muni forces in BC.

PMT


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