# Military intelligence unit spies on native groups



## GAP (13 Oct 2011)

Molehill = mountain.....sky is falling type of story

 Military intelligence unit spies on native groups
steven chase Globe and Mail Wednesday, Oct. 12, 2011
Article Link

The Canadian military is keeping a watch on aboriginal groups through an intelligence unit that is meant to protect the Forces and the Department of National Defence from espionage, terrorists and saboteurs.

The Canadian Forces’ National Counter-Intelligence Unit assembled at least eight reports on the activities of native organizations between January, 2010, and July, 2011, according to records released under access to information law.

When told of the documents, one aboriginal leader said the thought of the military keeping tabs on natives was “chilling.”

The Department of National Defence denies it obtained the intelligence itself, and says the information, which cites confidential sources with apparent inside knowledge of native groups, came from other government agencies.

Referred to as Counter-Intelligence Information Reports, the documents alert the military to events such as native plans for a protest blockade of Highway 401, and the possibility of a backlash among aboriginal groups over Ontario’s introduction of the harmonized sales tax.

“A possibility exists that First Nations extremists opposed to the HST may engage in activities with the potential to impact public safety in Ontario,” said an April, 2010, report that raised the spectre of conflict similar to the Caledonia, Ont., land claim dispute.

The memos devote a lot of space to future protests and lobbying on Parliament Hill by native groups, including the activities of the Assembly of First Nations, the Algonquin Anishinabeg Nation Tribal Council and Red Power United.

The low-profile counter-intelligence unit, formed in the 1990s, is charged with “identifying, investigating and countering threats to the security of the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence from foreign intelligence services, or from individuals/groups engaged of espionage, sabotage, subversion, terrorism, extremism or criminal activities.”

The unit reports to the Chief of Defence Intelligence who in turn is responsible to the vice-chief of the defence staff.

It is unclear whether the military did anything further with the informaiton.
More on link


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## Ex-Dragoon (13 Oct 2011)

Mr Harris seems to be determined to make DND look bad in  any light. The man seems to have a powerful hate on for us.


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## rmc_wannabe (13 Oct 2011)

Hmm that time frame seems to fall into the Podium and Cadence spectrum of Ops. They were most likely keeping tabs on everything with a pulse in AOO. 

Mr. Harris is fishing with a lack of bait.


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## Jarnhamar (13 Oct 2011)

Or


> The Canadian military is not keeping watch on aboriginal groups through an intelligence unit that is meant to protect the Forces and the Department of National Defence from espionage, terrorists and saboteurs.
> 
> The Canadian Forces’ National Counter-Intelligence Unit assembled zero reports on the activities of native organizations between January, 2010, and July, 2011, according to records released under access to information law.
> 
> ...


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## Retired AF Guy (13 Oct 2011)

A few comments: 

*The Canadian Forces’ National Counter-Intelligence Unit assembled at least eight reports ....according to records released under access to information law.  * If you got the reports, how about posting them so the rest of us can see them? Is that not to much to ask for? After all if they were released to the media, then the rest of us peons can also see them. But, then we would able to make our own judgments and not have rely on the selective editing of some reporter. Also, if we could actually see the reports we could determine who actually produced the information, NCIU or outside agencies.

*Counter-Intelligence Information Reports.* The DND spokesman states that these reports were not collected by the NCIU, but were provided by other agencies. One of the duties of the NCIU is to liaise with civilian police/security agencies on possible threats to DND and the CF. This falls under the * Security Liaison Intelligence Program,* which in turn falls under the * National Counter-Intelligence Program*. 

*Mr. Harris said this is another reason more external oversight is needed of the Canadian Forces’ intelligence gathering activities, in the same way that an independent review body monitors the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.* There is an office already in place to oversee CI operations; its called the * Counter-Intelligence Oversight Committee.* Its mandate is, "_for ensuring that CFNCIU requests for authority to conduct investigations and operations are consistent with the NCIP's mandate and policy, and reflect, where appropriate, current annual planning requirements. It shall explicitly give direction on the level of investigation or operation authorized."_

All for now.


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## cupper (13 Oct 2011)

First, why is this a surprise?

Second, why would the First Nations oppose Ontario introducing HST? Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't purchases by First Nations people tax exempt, at least at a provincial level? 

And finally wouldn't the HST just add incentive for non-natives to flood to the tax free sales on the reserves thereby adding to the money they take in already?

I call BS


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## George Wallace (13 Oct 2011)

A fishing expedition.........Like GAP said....."Molehill = Mountain".

As the documents were not published, they could be on anything, authored by any Government or Non-Government Agency and shared with many Agencies.  Wait until these people have a few clues and start asking about French, American, Russian, Chinese, Korean, Iranian, etc. Agencies (note: plural) who are gathering information on natives as well as other Canadians.  OH! The Shame.


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## OldSolduer (13 Oct 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> Molehill = mountain.....sky is falling type of story
> 
> Military intelligence unit spies on native groups
> steven chase Globe and Mail Wednesday, Oct. 12, 2011
> ...



Well do we not classify those at Caledonia as terrorists.....and if not they should be. As for the aborignal leader's comment...what I find "chilling" is the lack of leadership displayed by all those involved at Caledonia.


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## The Bread Guy (13 Oct 2011)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> *The Canadian Forces’ National Counter-Intelligence Unit assembled at least eight reports ....according to records released under access to information law.  * If you got the reports, how about posting them so the rest of us can see them? Is that not to much to ask for? After all if they were released to the media, then the rest of us peons can also see them. But, then we would able to make our own judgments and not have rely on the selective editing of some reporter. Also, if we could actually see the reports we could determine who actually produced the information, NCIU or outside agencies.


Now that it's been released, anyone wanting a copy of this completed ATIP request:


> A-2011-00367 - Intelligence reports from 1 Jan 2010 to 5 Jul 2011 from CFNCIU pertaining to intelligence gathering on First Nations and native Canadian persons and organizations within Canada, including reports related to 'Aboriginal JIG' - 21 (pages) - Disclosed in part


.... can ask for it:


> ....If you wish to obtain a copy of the records released in response to these requests informally, you may write to us at the following address:
> 
> Director Access to Information and Privacy
> National Defence Headquarters
> ...


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## Retired AF Guy (14 Oct 2011)

Well I sent an email off requesting the documents. Now its just wait and see.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Oct 2011)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Well I sent an email off requesting the documents. Now its just wait and see.


Wait no longer - released package downloadable here (21 page PDF).


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## Haggis (19 Oct 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Wait no longer - released package downloadable here (21 page PDF).



Yawn.....


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## PuckChaser (19 Oct 2011)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Yawn.....



Agree completely. Most of it is open source, and none of it makes any accusations of terrorist activity. In fact, I believe all of them stated they did not expect violent protests, only disruptions and peaceful blockades. Mountain out of a molehill.


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## Retired AF Guy (19 Oct 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Agree completely. Most of it is open source, and none of it makes any accusations of terrorist activity. In fact, I believe all of them stated they did not expect violent protests, only disruptions and peaceful blockades. Mountain out of a molehill.



The reports also refute any allegation that the NCIU was spying on native groups. Every report states that an unnamed source (who I suspect in most, if not all cases, was another government agency) providing info - not intelligence - that a protest may take place. If the info had actually been collected by the NCIU then the reports would have said something like," NCIU Det XXX has learned," or "we have obtained info" or something like that; and, the reports would have been classified a lot higher than just Confidential!


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## LineJumper (22 Oct 2011)

cupper said:
			
		

> First, why is this a surprise?
> 
> Second, why would the First Nations oppose Ontario introducing HST? Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't purchases by First Nations people tax exempt, at least at a provincial level?
> 
> ...



Tax exempt only at stores on Reserve land and only for Tobacco and Gasoline. As well, these exemptions are allowed to those in possesion of a card identifying the individual as either Status Indian, Non-Status Indian, Inuit or Metis.


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## Jarnhamar (23 Oct 2011)

I'll never understand the whole tax exempt thing.


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## Retired AF Guy (23 Oct 2011)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> I'll never understand the whole tax exempt thing.



 Ontario Point-Of-Sale Exemption For Ontario Status Indians 

 [T]ax benefits and requirements that apply to you as an Indian under the Canadian Indian Act


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## The Bread Guy (25 Oct 2011)

_Calgary Herald_ editorial, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._:


> Assembly of First Nations Chief Shawn Atleo recently denounced the Canadian military for using its secretive counter-intelligence unit to keep tabs on the activities of some aboriginal organizations, calling it an offensive measure that implies that native advocacy is tantamount to terrorism.
> 
> We understand, but disagree with his concern. The Canadian Forces' counter-intelligence unit was formed to guard against security threats to Armed Forces personnel and the Department of National Defence by monitoring those who "may be engaged in espionage, sabotage, subversion, terrorist activities, organized crime or other criminal activities," according to the DND website. This is serious stuff. It implies that members of some native organizations could be saboteurs, spies and, indeed, terrorists.
> 
> ...


Just a reminder and a bit of context from another thread....


			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> .... it is not in the mandate for the CF to collect intelligence on Canadians.  In fact it is illegal.


... and from earlier in this thread .....


			
				Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> .... Every report states that an unnamed source (who I suspect in most, if not all cases, was another government agency) providing info - not intelligence - that a protest may take place. If the info had actually been collected by the NCIU then the reports would have said something like," NCIU Det XXX has learned," or "we have obtained info" or something like that; and, the reports would have been classified a lot higher than just Confidential!


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## Edward Campbell (25 Oct 2011)

I am somewhat concerned with some comments:

First: there are legitimate reasons, lawful reasons, for the Government of Canada, no matter which agency, to collect information/intelligence (the line between the two can be very fuzzy) on Canadian citizens, residents and others who are simply here. The courts have held that the Charter does indeed apply to one and all as soon as they set foot in Canada, legally or not, but the same courts have agreed that the Government of Canada can, indeed should collect information about potential threats (rather than just about individuals or groups) in order to protect the realm. There are some specific provisions that restrict what CSEC may do here in Canada; and

Second: the business of oversight is dangerous. I get that some (many?) people do not trust agencies like DND. Do we trust politicians more? Do we really trust all the "arms length" commissioners we do not know? At some point we have to trust someone and, generally, I find the Clerk of the Privy Council to be more trustworthy than most other Canadians, and I suggest that we rely upon the 500+ year old office of the Clerk (rather than some "hired gun" commissioner or ombudsman) to help protect us from our "servants."

_- minor mod edit to fix abbreviation -_


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## lethalLemon (25 Oct 2011)

I spy on people in the shopping malls when I eat my lunch. Will they make a breaking news segment about me now too!?


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## Tharris (25 Oct 2011)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> I spy on people in the shopping malls when I eat my lunch. Will they make a breaking news segment about me now too!?



Maybe if it's a slow enough news day...

-T.


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## OldSolduer (25 Oct 2011)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> I spy on people in the shopping malls when I eat my lunch. Will they make a breaking news segment about me now too!?



I spy on them in airports. I call it "people watching". A most interesting lot these humans...... :Tin-Foil-Hat:


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## cupper (25 Oct 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I spy on them in airports. I call it "people watching". A most interesting lot these humans...... :Tin-Foil-Hat:



Don't be trying that south of the border. Could find yourself on a one way vacation to sunny Cuba. :'(

I like spying on the people that spy on me. Keeps them on their toes. 8)


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## FlyingDutchman (25 Oct 2011)

cupper said:
			
		

> Don't be trying that south of the border. Could find yourself on a one way vacation to sunny Cuba. :'(
> 
> I like spying on the people that spy on me. Keeps them on their toes. 8)


While they peek in your bedroom you peek in theirs?


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## cupper (25 Oct 2011)

No. I just peek back.

And if I'm in a good mood, I might do it naked.


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## George Wallace (25 Oct 2011)

Just a couple of points on the "Native" issue here.

Members of the Sarcee Nation were constantly "trespassing" onto Harvey Barracks in the last few decades prior to the end of their 100 year lease of the Sarcee Training Area.  


The Oromocto Indian Band on the boundaries of CFB Gagetown and the Town of Oromocto have been a constant thorn in the side of DND with numerous Land Claims and boundary disputes.

The Algonquin Nation are laying claim to most of Eastern Ontario, with includes not only Algonquin Park and Ottawa, but also CFB Petawawa.

The Stoney Point First Nation  occupied the former military base and Cadet Camp at Ipperwash.

Native blocades have happened in New Brunswick, Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia.  Natives still occupy part of the town of Caledonia, in Ontario.

Of course; fading from everyone's memory, in particular the people complaining about this news, there was the Oka Crisis.   

There are still many other examples that haven't been mentioned.

If Native groups feel hard done by, by any agency collecting information on them, perhaps they should rethink some of the above.


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## Greymatters (2 Nov 2011)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Wait no longer - released package downloadable here (21 page PDF).



Just because it says 'intelligence' in the title doesnt neccesarily mean its a 'military intelligence' product - which is about the most you can say about it here...


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## cupper (2 Nov 2011)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Just because it says 'intelligence' in the title doesnt neccesarily mean its a 'military intelligence' product - which is about the most you can say about it here...



Just because it says intelligence doesn't mean there is a anything intelligent contained within the report.


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## Greymatters (4 Nov 2011)

Yes, it seems like a lot of 'intelligence' products are more along the lines of 'information' products...


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## Retired AF Guy (4 Nov 2011)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Yes, it seems like a lot of 'intelligence' products are more along the lines of 'information' products...



That's because the definition of intelligence is, "information that has been processed."  When you read a intelligence/security/counter-int report the majority of said report is information. In most cases the actual "intelligence" part is in the 
comment(s) section where the analyst has taken the information, compared it to other sources and has come out with (we hope) an informed answer.


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## OldSolduer (5 Nov 2011)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> That's because the definition of intelligence is, "information that has been processed."  When you read a intelligence/security/counter-int report the majority of said report is information. In most cases the actual "intelligence" part is in the
> comment(s) section where the analyst has taken the information, compared it to other sources and has come out with (we hope) an informed answer.



Concur - I've written intelligence before and "intelligence" is really predicting what the opposition will do.


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## Greymatters (6 Nov 2011)

Im well aware of the definition of intelligence - I was refering to a large number of reports outside the military that are called 'intelligence' but are merely cut-and-paste composites...


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## Retired AF Guy (8 Nov 2011)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Well I sent an email off requesting the documents. Now its just wait and see.



Just a little update on my ATIP request. I had sent the email request out on the 15th of Oct and got the CD with the info requested a week later. Pretty good turn-around I would say.


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