# CAN FORCE ONE grounded in hangar accident



## FJAG (2 Dec 2019)

> PM's CF-150 Polaris Airbus out of operation until August
> Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Dec 02, 2019 3:45 PM ET
> 
> Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will be hitching rides on a variety of air force planes for the foreseeable future.
> ...



https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/prime-minister-airbus-grounded-trudeau-1.5381367

The sad story of why we have a CAN FORCE ONE



> Use as VIP transport
> The decision to outfit one of the five CC-150s as a VIP transport intended for use by the Prime Minister of Canada, made while Brian Mulroney held office, was politically controversial. The $56 million in upgrades were criticized as a needless extravagance during a time of government budgetary challenges by then-Leader of the Opposition Jean Chrétien, who labelled the aircraft a "flying Taj Mahal". Chrétien became Prime Minister soon thereafter and tried and failed to sell the aircraft; he would refuse to make use of the CC-150 during his ensuing 11 years in office. The aircraft was parked at Canadian Forces Base Uplands on standby, two aircraft were used in its place primarily the CC-144 Challenger.[6] and a second CC-150 when a larger aircraft was required.
> 
> Subsequent refits to and from use as a troop transport would result in much of the VIP amenities being downgraded. The CC-150 would return to use as official transport for the prime minister under Paul Martin in 2004.[6]
> ...



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_CC-150_Polaris

 :brickwall:


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## Quirky (2 Dec 2019)

Pics of damage in link: http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/en/flight-safety/article-template-flight-safety.page?doc=cc15001-airbus-from-the-investigator/k35u6unt&fbclid=IwAR3tqCk3lsx8SDfdrbeJ9NU06KYL6XM_kmTdxtZJ_C_36S1FIWq8wwgPOow&utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Current fleet in RCAF that needs/should be replaced within a decade - CF-18s, Tutors, Tanker/Troop transport, Auroras(?). Intere$ting times.


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## suffolkowner (2 Dec 2019)

Much like the PM's residence it's going to be hard to justify buying a new plane when the government can't/won't get on with replacing the RCAF's non VIP fleet.

But we're at that point where they should be looking at what needs to be done, I'm guessing this will stress the Challenger fleet at least.


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## garb811 (2 Dec 2019)

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Much like the PM's residence it's going to be hard to justify buying a new plane when the government can't/won't get on with replacing the RCAF's non VIP fleet.
> 
> But we're at that point where they should be looking at what needs to be done, I'm guessing this will stress the Challenger fleet at least.


And for those who may have missed the discussion, the the Challenger fleet is already in trouble, not that the Challenger is fully interchangeable with Polaris in any case...

Challenger - needed to comply with the new ADS-B system


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## suffolkowner (2 Dec 2019)

It's going to be hard to convince NATO that were on top of our Defence spending when we can't even outfit our PM with a VIP aircraft but again so many platforms need replacing how do you justify it? Much like a city council that runs a couple terms with no tax increases and then "all of a sudden" all the roads need paving.

It's going to be a hard sell to replace the tanker fleet before the fighter is chosen as I am guessing they do not want to be seen to prejudice the outcome with regard to probe or boom refuelling unless we choose both(?)


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Dec 2019)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Pics of damage in link: http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/en/flight-safety/article-template-flight-safety.page?doc=cc15001-airbus-from-the-investigator/k35u6unt&fbclid=IwAR3tqCk3lsx8SDfdrbeJ9NU06KYL6XM_kmTdxtZJ_C_36S1FIWq8wwgPOow&utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
> 
> Current fleet in RCAF that needs/should be replaced within a decade - CF-18s, Tutors, Tanker/Troop transport, Auroras(?). Intere$ting times.



Army= Private take this gun tape and fix that....


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## FJAG (2 Dec 2019)

Aren't the interior of these things modular? And couldn't you just have a VIP module(s) to switch into a standard CC150 when needed?

 :cheers:


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## The Bread Guy (2 Dec 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Army= Private take this gun tape and fix that....


It's only _100 mph_ tape, though ...


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## SeaKingTacco (2 Dec 2019)

This is going to be pedantic but:

That particular CC-150 (the article inaccurately labels it as a CF-150, which would make it a fighter) is not CANFORCE 01. No particular CAF aircraft is.

Rather, which ever aircraft happens to be carrying the PM gets that callsign. The aircaft could be a CC-150. Equally, it could be a C-17, Hercules, Aurora, Cyclone or even a CF-18.


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## edlabonte (2 Dec 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Aren't the interior of these things modular? And couldn't you just have a VIP module(s) to switch into a standard CC150 when needed?
> 
> :cheers:



Why yes it is, This is in fact the silliest thread ever. They will, and probably have just moved on to tail #2 and filled it up with the VIP layout.  It probably took them the rest of the day to configure the plane.  Yippie do da


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## Quirky (2 Dec 2019)

edlabonte said:
			
		

> Why yes it is, This is in fact the silliest thread ever. They will, and probably have just moved on to tail #2 and filled it up with the VIP layout.  It probably took them the rest of the day to configure the plane.  Yippie do da



What about the exterior paint job? Can’t have the PM fly around in peasant dark grey colours.


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## suffolkowner (2 Dec 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> This is going to be pedantic but:
> 
> That particular CC-150 (the article inaccurately labels it as a CF-150, which would make it a fighter) is not CANFORCE 01. No particular CAF aircraft is.
> 
> Rather, which ever aircraft happens to be carrying the PM gets that callsign. The aircaft could be a CC-150. Equally, it could be a C-17, Hercules, Aurora, Cyclone or even a CF-18.




I'm guessing they're going off the 01 on the aircraft in the picture and the paint job.


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## PPCLI Guy (2 Dec 2019)

edlabonte said:
			
		

> Why yes it is, This is in fact the silliest thread ever. They will, and probably have just moved on to tail #2 and filled it up with the VIP layout.  It probably took them the rest of the day to configure the plane.  Yippie do da



Huh.  I would not have guessed that.  I have been on that AC a few times, and it did not give the impression of being modular.  Even if is is, I believe that it has been installed in tail 001 for quite a while so I wonder if that might not take a bit longer than one day - and of course it would be very surprising if the RCAF can afford to have a spare Airbus VIP kit laying around.


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## Cloud Cover (2 Dec 2019)

Clever plan by Bombardier to seize the initiative and hire a contractor to smash some old planes into a wall when nobody is looking. 

As for call signs? How about “Hairforce One”.


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Dec 2019)

Well I think some of these will be available shortly, hey good enough for our servicemen, good enough for the PM







I could also point out that aircraft associated with the PM, seem to have a habit of getting bent, either the planes or the crews want a break from his "extraordinaryness"


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## Good2Golf (2 Dec 2019)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> This is going to be pedantic but:
> 
> That particular CC-150 (the article inaccurately labels it as a CF-150, which would make it a fighter) is not CANFORCE 01. No particular CAF aircraft is.
> 
> Rather, which ever aircraft happens to be carrying the PM gets that callsign. The aircaft could be a CC-150. Equally, it could be a C-17, Hercules, Aurora, Cyclone or even a CF-18.



You mean even the two Bombardier 604 Challengers that PM Chretien directed to be purchased on the last day of the fiscal year 2001/2002 for 1/10 of one billion dollars (or 79% more than Mulroney spent on upgrading the Taj) could operate as CANFORCE 1? 



Regards
G2G


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## PPCLI Guy (2 Dec 2019)

Configured differently from the 2 x 601, creating qualification issues?   Those ones?


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## Good2Golf (2 Dec 2019)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Configured differently from the 2 x 601, creating qualification issues?   Those ones?



The very same.


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## dapaterson (2 Dec 2019)

They're different a/c; it's not merely a configuration issue.


Sort of like the hodgepodge of CC130s that were bought piecemeal over time, with lots of variations in configuration, only worse...  (At least now, we're retiring them and moving to a CC130J fleet).


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## dimsum (2 Dec 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> As for call signs? How about “Hairforce One”.



The base barber in 17 Wing Winnipeg would like to have a word.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Dec 2019)

It's probably a RCAF cry for help, you know, just like the RCN's submarine fender bender with the Corner Brook 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/navy-submarine-damage-severe-internal-report-says-1.1353463

 ;D


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## Cloud Cover (3 Dec 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The base barber in 17 Wing Winnipeg would like to have a word.



I called him. He brushed me off.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Dec 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Well I think some of these will be available shortly, hey good enough for our servicemen, good enough for the PM
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pffffttt.... he already has two planes of his own:


Federal Election 2019: Trudeau defends having second plane during campaign 

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau defended having a second plane during the campaign, saying it was used for cargo, but said they had purchased carbon offsets for planes and buses being used.

https://globalnews.ca/video/5983852/federal-election-2019-trudeau-defends-having-second-plane-during-campaign


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## Oldgateboatdriver (3 Dec 2019)

I hope somebody (journalists, opposition parties, Chief Electoral Officer?) remembers to check inclusion in the election's financial filings. Carbon offsets are not cheap. Currently, it's about $19.40 per ton of equivalent CO2 in the California/Quebec/B.C. Cap and trade market.

Would be ashamed to forget inclusion in  the election expenses report.
 ;D


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## Spencer100 (3 Dec 2019)

What to take a bet right now?  When that plane emerges from repair the blue strip is gone.


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## Good2Golf (3 Dec 2019)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> What to take a bet right now?  When that plane emerges from repair the blue strip is gone.



I wouldn’t mind if it does, if they do it by painting it like the 707.  That’s a classic/nice paint job.  “Shamu” was a bit garish, IMO. 

Cheers
G2G


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## dapaterson (3 Dec 2019)

I say we take the winning entry for the DM/CDS Christmas card contest and paint it full size on the aircraft!


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## Good2Golf (3 Dec 2019)

Planey McPlaneface!


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## observor 69 (3 Dec 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> I wouldn’t mind if it does, if they do it by painting it like the 707.  That’s a classic/nice paint job.  “Shamu” was a bit garish, IMO.
> 
> Cheers
> G2G



Things of beauty:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Boeing_CC-137_(707-347C),_Canada_-_Air_Force_AN1064459.jpg

Or the Yukon: http://silverhawkauthor.com/canadian-warplanes-5-the-post-war-piston-era-canadair-cc106-yukon_870.html


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## cavalryman (3 Dec 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Things of beauty:
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Boeing_CC-137_(707-347C),_Canada_-_Air_Force_AN1064459.jpg
> 
> Or the Yukon: http://silverhawkauthor.com/canadian-warplanes-5-the-post-war-piston-era-canadair-cc106-yukon_870.html


I did one transatlantic crossing in a Yukon from Dusseldorf to Trenton as a six year old the year before the 707s came online and I still vividly remember the mind-numbing monotony half a century later


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## observor 69 (3 Dec 2019)

Many years ago as an LAC, I got a ride on a Yukon to London England. At that time you had to dress in civies, with a tie and sport coat or better. Forget the details but we were served breakfast on tables with real cutlery and linen. Remember the passenger sitting across from me asked where I was going. I replied I was an LAC and going to bum around Europe and then get a standby trip back.


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## FJAG (4 Dec 2019)

A Yukon took me from Trenton to Victoria (or maybe Vancouver - where we landed is a bit hazy to me now) in 1969 to attend Basic Officer training at  CFOCS Venture in Esquimalt. My first plane ride ever and didn't think that the rear-facing seats were anything out of the ordinary at the time.

 :cheers:


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## eliminator (4 Dec 2019)

The latest CC-150 paint scheme honours the upcoming 75th anniversary of 437 Transport Squadron in 2019. It is a throwback to the red-and-white livery used from 1975 to 1997 on the Boeing CC-137. Galen Burrows Photo


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## FSTO (4 Dec 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> A Yukon took me from Trenton to Victoria (or maybe Vancouver - where we landed is a bit hazy to me now) in 1969 to attend Basic Officer training at  CFOCS Venture in Esquimalt. My first plane ride ever and didn't think that the rear-facing seats were anything out of the ordinary at the time.
> 
> :cheers:



So you went to "Venture, The Naval Officers Training Centre"?
I went to CFOCS in Chilliwack. Fantastic place to get your initial introduction to the CAF. I flew in the 707 5 or 6 times in the 90's and they really showed their age by then!


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## Spencer100 (4 Dec 2019)

Believe it or not. Some CC-137 still flying as JSTARS

"Most of the fleet ended up with the Northrop Grumman E-8 Joint STARS programme either for spare parts or conversion to E-8C standard for the United States Air Force.[6] 
Operators" Wikipedia CC-137


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## Cloud Cover (4 Dec 2019)

The alternate CC150 has some problems and cannot fly the PM home from London. A second CC150 has been sent to pick him up. 

https://twitter.com/mikelecouteur/status/1202276215551397889?s=20

Enough with the shenanigans about optics of flying the PM around. Lease or buy a new multi purpose fleet, no serious person is going to ding the government for that unless it’s a bombardier product that is chosen. 
There are lots of options available to get this done quickly.


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## dapaterson (4 Dec 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> The alternate CC150 has some problems and cannot fly the PM home from London. A second CC150 has been sent to pick him up.
> 
> https://twitter.com/mikelecouteur/status/1202276215551397889?s=20
> 
> ...



To be fair, the Global Express would be a fine replacement for the Challengers...


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## Cloud Cover (4 Dec 2019)

Yes, of course. Along with the SAAB kit that goes with them!


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## observor 69 (4 Dec 2019)

Bombardier Global Express:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8z2kC7TRHc

I can't judge if it would meet whatever the defined need is but I am impressed.

I have always wondered why the PM or other VIPs need to take a large passenger aircraft to go to such events. Does anyone want to enlighten me?


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## dapaterson (4 Dec 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Bombardier Global Express:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8z2kC7TRHc
> 
> I can't judge if it would meet whatever the defined need is but I am impressed.
> ...



Sometimes they don't.  There's a fleet of Challenger jets as well for smaller trips.  (Two different variants, one of which is old enough that it will soon require a waiver to operate in airspace - hence the need to replace at least the older Challengers).

However, for trips with larger contingents, sometimes including media (who pay their own way), it can be more convenient to use a larger aircraft to transport more pax / more cargo / some combination of both.  Like it or not, for a major event like a NATO summit there will be a large contingent, including support and security staff.


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## FJAG (4 Dec 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> So you went to "Venture, The Naval Officers Training Centre"?
> I went to CFOCS in Chilliwack. Fantastic place to get your initial introduction to the CAF. I flew in the 707 5 or 6 times in the 90's and they really showed their age by then!



By 1969, Venture was no longer a Navel Officers Training Centre but a tri-service CF Officers' Candidate School. We were either the last or second last platoon to go through there as Chilliwack had already opened and Venture closed down for BOTC shortly after I left there.

Here's me looking spiffy.







 :cheers:


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## dapaterson (4 Dec 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> ... and Venture closed down for BOTC shortly after I left there.



Hmm... correlation does not imply causation, but...


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## FJAG (4 Dec 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Hmm... correlation does not imply causation, but...



Let's see now: the Royal Canadian School of Artillery in Shilo closed down and moved to Gagetown after I went there; 3 RCHA is now toast. ... I'm starting to see a trend.

 :facepalm:


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## PPCLI Guy (4 Dec 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Here's me looking spiffy.



Yeah...that's it.....exactly the word I was thinking of.....Spiffy.....


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Dec 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Here's me looking spiffy.



The summer of '69.  Woodstock, Easy Rider . . .   Yup, add another icon of cool!   Cue music


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## suffolkowner (4 Dec 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Yes, of course. Along with the SAAB kit that goes with them!



I gathered from EITS in the Canadian Arctic thread that it wouldn't be that simple to transition from one airframe to another and that we would probably be running up against the ever so common lack of money/people

Complete failure seems to be one way to get the kit replaced, put off until it's an emergency, than push it through

I believe in 2013(?) three options were presented to the government all of which suggested the complete replacement of all 6 Challengers, then in 2016(?) it was recommended to replace the two older Challenger 601's with used Challenger 604's. New Challengers were judged to be too expensive, so a Global Express at double the cost would look like a non starter, however probably considerably cheaper than an Airbus 310


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## Cloud Cover (4 Dec 2019)

And now they are running out of practical and pragmatic options. 

Edit: whatever the cost of the Challengers or Global Express might be, this country has certainly no problem spending far more for less projects.   Neither one however, is a replacement for the Airbus fleet.


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## MarkOttawa (4 Dec 2019)

A couple, at least, of A220s? Made at Mirabel.

Mark
Ottawa


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## suffolkowner (4 Dec 2019)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> A couple, at least, of A220s? Made at Mirabel.
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa



Right! this should really be a slam dunk. Twin Otters, Dash 8, Challengers, Global Express, A220 how hard a sell could it really be. I don't know what aircraft and in what numbers are needed for the VIP/ transport role or even if this service needs to be provided by the RCAF as opposed to being contracted, but it sure sounds like a decision is going to have to be made sooner rather than later. I'm not sure that any new Global Express or A220 are even available right now as I think there is quite a back order


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## dapaterson (4 Dec 2019)

The current production A220s lack the range to serve a VIP transport for a head of state / head of government.   Unless you can add about 50% to the range, they just aren't worth it.


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## Zoomie (4 Dec 2019)

A330 MRTT

https://www.airbus.com/defence/a330mrtt.html

Ozzies know how to do procurement right...


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## dapaterson (4 Dec 2019)

Ditch said:
			
		

> A330 MRTT



Boeing KC-76 Pegasus, with a MOU with Air Canada to maintain Reserve 767 pilots.  Let them fly 10 months a year for Air Canada; we guarantee two months a year of military employment.  

Then get Boeing to develop a 767-based ISR platform so we can save on pilot and maintenance costs...


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## FSTO (5 Dec 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> By 1969, Venture was no longer a Navel Officers Training Centre but a tri-service CF Officers' Candidate School. We were either the last or second last platoon to go through there as Chilliwack had already opened and Venture closed down for BOTC shortly after I left there.
> 
> Here's me looking spiffy.
> 
> ...


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## Spencer100 (5 Dec 2019)

The back up grounded

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2019/12/04/trudeaus-plane-damaged-now-backup-plane-grounded-in-london-u-k/#.Xek9825FyUm


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## YZT580 (5 Dec 2019)

Bad optics if they replace the VIP fleet before concluding the F18 replacement competition.  The opposition would have a field day with that one.  Granted the 150's are used for a whole lot more than flying the bosses around but that little fact is not what is thought of when the fleet is mentioned. Add the airbus ailments to the need to replace the challengers and you have the basis for another bad hair day


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## The Bread Guy (5 Dec 2019)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Bad optics if they replace the VIP fleet before concluding the F18 replacement competition.


True, but there would also be merit in some non-partisan consideration because it won't always be one team or another in power, so it's really an issue for both the winning team and the next winning team as the government in waiting (of sorts). 

I know, dare to dream ...


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## FJAG (5 Dec 2019)

Flew in the Governor General's Cosmo once. 






Maybe we can get them back.  ;D


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## observor 69 (5 Dec 2019)

If I remember correctly.... In the Cosmo we sat on a couch pushed against the wall/fuselage. Had seat belt on but still leaned sideways on landing.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Dec 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly.... In the Cosmo we sat on a couch pushed against the wall/fuselage. Had seat belt on but still leaned sideways on landing.



In the Cosmo in Freddie, we sat on couch sized cougar on Saturday nights before the lights came on at 2am... because: Infantry


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## FJAG (5 Dec 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly.... In the Cosmo we sat on a couch pushed against the wall/fuselage. Had seat belt on but still leaned sideways on landing.



Yup. And I seem to remember a table with an inlaid map of Canada.

 :cheers:


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## SeaKingTacco (6 Dec 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Flew in the Governor General's Cosmo once.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kelowna Flightcraft owns them and they are still flying air cargo...


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## suffolkowner (6 Dec 2019)

a plane ready to go for some vip fleet relief just needs to be found/seized 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/03/02/canada-lent-a-family-41-million-to-buy-a-luxury-jet-now-the-jet-is-missing/


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## dapaterson (18 Jun 2020)

Improper chocks, improper training, $11M in repairs that just started last month, not flying again before January 2021... and DND is asking L3 to pay, since the aircraft was under their control at the time.  

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/flight-safety/article-template-flight-safety.page?doc=cc15001-airbus-epilogue/k35u6unt

https://twitter.com/MercedesGlobal/status/1273712591349714946
https://twitter.com/MercedesGlobal/status/1273725057676783616


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