# London tuition riot



## old medic (10 Dec 2010)

Royal car attacked as student rioters run riot in London

Published Date: 10 December 2010
By Staff Reporters
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/Royal-car-attacked-as-student.6656088.jp



> PRINCE Charles and his wife Camilla came under attack and several government buildings were damaged during violent clashes between protesters and police after MPs voted narrowly to allow English universities to increase tuition fees.
> 
> The Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall were unharmed in the incident, which happened as they made their way to the Palladium Theatre for the Royal Variety Performance.
> 
> ...


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## old medic (10 Dec 2010)

Defacing the Cenotaph, urinating on Churchill... how young thugs at student protest broke every taboo

By Paul Harris
Last updated at 9:28 AM on 10th December 2010
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337315/TUITION-FEES-VOTE-PROTEST-Thugs-deface-Cenotaph-urinate-Churchill.html



> In a grotesque insult to those who championed the very freedoms which allowed them to stage their protest, a baying rabble of masked and hooded troublemakers turned a student demonstration into anarchy yesterday.
> 
> They defiled a statue of Winston Churchill by urinating on it, ripped flags from the Cenotaph ­– the nation’s sacred memorial to those who died in the name of liberty – then lit fires and sprayed slogans on the ground in the shadow of the Houses of Parliament.
> 
> ...


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## Jarnhamar (10 Dec 2010)

The cops should have opened fire with deadly force.  Bet your bobby hat the next protest won't be as violent.


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## CANADIAN F0RCES (11 Dec 2010)

I think they should protest more until tuition fees are lowered even. I think Canadians should protest our tutuion cost like this. Not in stupid violence but directed to send a clear message. The governments of the world are pushing people to their breaking points.  

I strongly dissagree with the damage to the cenotaph. That's stupid and counter productive.


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## tomahawk6 (11 Dec 2010)

Violent protest accomplishes nothing. The UK is broke and has to make cuts. I could be wrong but students in the UK enjoyed a free education. I think the bigger problem is what happens after the student graduates ? Can he/she find a job or will they just graduate to the dole ?


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## GAP (11 Dec 2010)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> I think they should protest more until tuition fees are lowered even. I think Canadians should protest our tutuion cost like this. Not in stupid violence but directed to send a clear message. The governments of the world are pushing people to their breaking points.



Why, who entitled you or anyone else to free or cheap education.....?


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## CANADIAN F0RCES (11 Dec 2010)

Entitle? It should be everyones right to have a cheap education! Period.


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## George Wallace (11 Dec 2010)

Yet another example of the Black Bloc tactics being used.  I say, anyone showing up at a peaceful demonstration wearing a disguise to hide their identity is not there to be peaceful and should be arrested on the spot.


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## George Wallace (11 Dec 2010)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> Entitle? It should be everyones right to have a cheap education! Period.



 :

Is it my Right to be a Pilot?  Or perhaps it is my Right to be a Doctor?

Did your parents ever say "NO!" to you?

It isn't your Right to be anything.  It isn't your Right to have anything.  It is a Privilege that you earn.  Once you become an adult, you have to earn what you want.  You are no longer under Mommy and Daddy's roof and protection.  They earned the rights for you to get a High School education, and they paid taxes so that you could.  Now that you are an adult, and out of their nurturing environment, you can pay your own way.


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## 57Chevy (11 Dec 2010)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> I think they should protest more until tuition fees are lowered even. I think Canadians should protest our tutuion cost like this.


There have been protests in Quebec about lowering the already low tuition fees.
the average tuition in Quebec is just $2,415 - less than half the Canadian average of $5,138.



			
				CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> The governments of the world are pushing people to their breaking points.



Quebec universities have an accumulated deficit of $483 million.
A portion of tuition fees are paid by taxpayers.......many of which have never attended university....and never
will. 

info:

Quebec students protest plan to hike tuition rates


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## Jarnhamar (11 Dec 2010)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> Entitle? It should be everyones right to have a cheap education! Period.



I think I'm coming down with the flu, I better be bettter by monday though-there's people on welfare counting on me.


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## aesop081 (11 Dec 2010)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> Entitle? It should be everyones right to have a cheap education! Period.



People also have the right to pay for their education, just like i should have the right not too be financialy burdened with paying for the education of those too lazy to work and pay for it.


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## HavokFour (11 Dec 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yet another example of the Black Bloc tactics being used.  I say, anyone showing up at a peaceful demonstration wearing a disguise to hide their identity is not there to be peaceful and should be arrested on the spot.



Ever been to a Scientology protest? In this case however, the behavior is completely unacceptable.


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## ModlrMike (11 Dec 2010)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> I think they should protest more until tuition fees are lowered even. I think Canadians should protest our tutuion cost like this. Not in stupid violence but directed to send a clear message. The governments of the world are pushing people to their breaking points.
> 
> I strongly dissagree with the damage to the cenotaph. That's stupid and counter productive.



Where do you think the money is going to come from for this cheap/free education? I'll tell you where... the working class. I for one am tired of funding everybody's "free" this and "free" that. I put money away for my kid's eduction from the day they were born. If more parents took the long view and invested in their children's education from birth, we wouldn't need "free" education.


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## Michael OLeary (11 Dec 2010)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> Entitle? It should be everyones right to have a cheap education! Period.



Fine, and since it's the taxpayer's money, would you therefore agree that the Government should then limit the number of each degree to that which meets our society's needs? Or should we follow it with the equivalent pay of the jobs they let you qualify for that don't exist when you graduate?

Who, exactly do you think pays for it now?

From 2009: http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/tag/canadian-university-funding/



> It costs $15,000 per year to teach you. Your tuition only covers about a quarter of that. Most of what the university spends to hire your professors and pay the utility bills actually comes from taxpayers. That amount of money may seem like a lot, but it’s actually a lot less than the share of funding you would have received 30 years ago. Governments may be investing in building seats in lecture halls – the federal government announced $2 billion more this week – but no one is increasing operating funding to match the growth in enrolment.
> 
> Here’s the breakdown of who paid what for university operations in 2007-08:
> 
> ...



Just to be clear: we, the taxpayers, already pay more of your tuition than you do.


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## Edward Campbell (11 Dec 2010)

I support free or nearly free post secondary education - for those who _earn_ it through academic achievement. I think that all those who score very, very highly in rigorous, standardized tests should get free tuition, books, fees, room and board and so so. Those who get less than near perfect marks should pay something - very little for those who get a B+ average, full price - say $50,000/year - for those who get a C- average. No provisions should be made for financial support for anyone who gets less than a B average on all those rigorous, standardized tests in 2 X maths, 2 X sciences, English (or French), History, Geography and one language.

The rigorous, standardized high school graduation tests should be set and marked by universities - not by provincial departments of education - just as university graduation test standards are, _de facto_, set by graduate and professional schools and professional associations and colleges.

Maybe we can/should just privatize the whole system - pay the talented (smart) to further their academic educations; make it easy for the majority to enter the work force through colleges, trade schools and apprenticeships.


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## ballz (11 Dec 2010)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The rigorous, standardized high school graduation tests should be set and marked by universities - not by provincial departments of education - just as university graduation test standards are, _de facto_, set by graduate and professional schools and professional associations and colleges.



In my experience between province-wide tests in high school vs. the testing I receive in university, Alberta's province-wide testing in gr 9 and in gr 12 were a diamond compared to what I receive in university. They had a very rigorous process, where it was considered to be with prestige to be invited to mark the exams, and they kept track of how you performed as a marker (every test was marked by two people... any descrepancy of even 1 mark on question was reviewed by a third party... and they keep track of how many times this happens to you, and how many times the third party agrees with you or the other person, etc), and weren't afraid to not invite you back.

I agree that people aren't entitled to an education, however, let's go to the extreme here and say the government doesn't fund any education. Zip. Not even kindergarden. Does anybody really think this is a good investment decision?

I think most of us agree that we are setting ourselves and our country up for future hardship by not making a legit effort to ensure most people are literate and have a high school diploma.

Personally, I would take it one step forward and say we would be setting ourselves up for success if we were to invest more money in technology, science, engineering, etc. I think anybody that reaches a certain level of achievement (to prove they are capable of succeeding) in high school, that wishes to pursue an education in certain faculties that we know it would be an advantage for our country to be a leader in that area, should be more than encouraged with a high level of funding.I also like the idea of setting incentive levels.

What I don't like is that it seems most of the people that are always being vocal about free tuition are theatre students, who probably will never pay taxes because they'll be unemployed their whole life. Sorry, but there's no way to justify paying more taxes so you can pursue expressing yourself more artistically. You can do that on your own time, on your own dime, just like I pay money to attend martial arts and play hockey twwo nights a week. I'm not interested in supporting your hobbies because you call it an education.


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## wannabe SF member (11 Dec 2010)

CANADIAN F0RCES said:
			
		

> Entitle? It should be everyones right to have a cheap education! Period.



Ain't no such thing as a free lunch in life nor should there be. My "free" education came with an enlistment in the CF and a 9 year contract.


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## hold_fast (11 Dec 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> What I don't like is that it seems most of the people that are always being vocal about free tuition are theatre students, who probably will never pay taxes because they'll be unemployed their whole life. Sorry, but there's no way to justify paying more taxes so you can pursue expressing yourself more artistically. You can do that on your own time, on your own dime, just like I pay money to attend martial arts and play hockey twwo nights a week. I'm not interested in supporting your hobbies because you call it an education.



Theatre is not a hobby and can be a viable career to those who have it in them to succeed. Same goes for music, visual arts, etc. Schools are generally hold fine arts student to a certain standard, and discard those who can't meet said standard.

Just because someone isn't curing cancer or selling stock sure as **** doesn't mean they're useless to society.


In regards to education, I believe that there is a large group of 'average'-performing students who fall through the gap when it comes to tuition and performance. I don't believe you can solely reward someone on the basis of their grades.

Lastly, the whole education system needs an overhaul. I agree strongly with this guy.


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## Edward Campbell (11 Dec 2010)

I agree with you (and Robinson) on the _creativity_ issue. It is creativity, not rote memorization, that gave us everything from the domestic pig through Confucius and the industrial revolution to (and beyond) _Intel_. But even as we make sure that we nurture and reward _creativity_, as our American friends do quite well, I think, we need to learn from e.g. Hong Kong and Singapore and ensure - not just try, *ensure* - that all* our children are literate and numerate.

Leaving aside the few who cannot learn, we must *ensure* that every child has an elementary education that prepares them to live productive, law abiding lives. Secondary and post secondary education needs to be more and more and more specialized to meet the varying needs of society and our children (and grandchildren).

We need accountants, biologists, construction workers, dentists, electricians and so on down to and including theatre people and zoologists - and we need, for the sake of society, to get the _right_ kids into the right programmes based on interests, aptitude and, above all, performance.


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* Obviously, some small percentage of our children cannot manage even that and we must provide for them, too.


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## Infanteer (11 Dec 2010)

I had a bit of sympathy for the Brit students until I learned that the raise would only affect domestic tuition and that their tuition would be rising closer to levels paid by international students.  As a student of a UK grad programme, I have no problem with them paying what I pay.

It's nice and all to protest tuition hikes, but money is finite and we can't just expect the government to fund everything.


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## ballz (11 Dec 2010)

hold_fast said:
			
		

> Theatre is not a hobby and can be a viable career to those who have it in them to succeed. Same goes for music, visual arts, etc. Schools are generally hold fine arts student to a certain standard, and discard those who can't meet said standard.
> 
> Just because someone isn't curing cancer or selling stock sure as **** doesn't mean they're useless to society.



That's a terrible argument. "Same goes" for everything. There was a time in my life when I didn't consider hockey a hobby for me, and I don't consider martial arts a "hobby" either. There are viable careers worth millions of dollars for "those who have it," but I never expected the government to pay the thousands of dollars I spent every summer on goalie schools, the thousands spent on ice-time, trips, etc. We fundraised. Maybe these theatre students should start doing bottle drives like I was doing from the time I was 4 yrs old to the time I joined the military if they're interested in "finding out" if they've got what it takes.

Which university holds fine arts students to a certain standard and "discards" those who can't meet the said standard? I've never heard of anybody failing out of a friggin fine arts program. If they don't have what it takes to be in a play, they use them to fill the other rolls involved in putting off a school play.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with pursuing an education in fine arts. That's fine and dandy, I could care less. I just find it awfully stupid that they are the ones out protesting for cheaper tuition, but I guess that's what the science and engineering students would be doing too if they weren't marked on a bell curve and spending 50 hrs a week at school. As well, it would benefit the country more if they placed more money into specific areas. Theatre was just an example.


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## chrisf (11 Dec 2010)

I have absolutely no sympathy for people (canadians) complaining post-secondary tuition is too expensive.

I have been a post secondary student for a total of five years, and have no debt, what so ever, rather, I have money in the bank, and continue to save money every year. I've worked my way through as a reservist, an opportunity available to almost all Canadian citizens.

If thats not your cup of tea, I'm currently a student at a technical college, approx 1/3 of my class is being funded as EI recepients, meaning that EI is paying for 90% of everything (Tuition, books, etc) and allowing them to continue to receive EI benefits while they attend post-secondary... that's 90% of a 3 year diploma paid for... several of these folks started at age 18... worked for a year out of highschool, long enough to receive EI benefits, and then went back to school with full funding...

There are also all sorts of scholarships available, though a great many go unawarded every year, either due to a lack of unqualified applicants or (surprisingly) a lack of applicants period.

So while education is important, and I have no problem with some government subsidies, I have very little sympathy for those demanding education to be handed to them... it's already there, it only takes a bit of effort...


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## George Wallace (11 Dec 2010)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> If thats not your cup of tea, I'm currently a student at a technical college, approx 1/3 of my class is being funded as EI recepients, meaning that EI is paying for 90% of everything (Tuition, books, etc) and allowing them to continue to receive EI benefits while they attend post-secondary... that's 90% of a 3 year diploma paid for... several of these folks started at age 18... worked for a year out of highschool, long



Having some experience with these types, many of them are there for nothing more than NOT working.  They are usually not the highest performers mark Wise in the courses.  They are there for the "free ride" not the education, attaining poor marks and often delinquent in attending classes.  (This is a generalization, and there are a small percentage who are honestly there to gain an education and better themselves.)  EI and programs for Aboriginals are made with good intentions, unfortunately a good number of the people taking advantage of those programs are not so upstanding.


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## chrisf (11 Dec 2010)

I can assure you, these guys are working... the "for the sake of not working" types don't bother with the longer programs, in this case, if they weren't working, they would have flunked out two years ago.

My point was, these programs are available, and with minimal effort.


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## lethalLemon (11 Dec 2010)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I have absolutely no sympathy for people (canadians) complaining post-secondary tuition is too expensive.
> 
> I have been a post secondary student for a total of five years, and have no debt, what so ever, rather, I have money in the bank, and continue to save money every year. I've worked my way through as a reservist, an opportunity available to almost all Canadian citizens.
> 
> ...



What about people like me? Those who can't afford post-secondary education and wish to pursue it? I'm not sure if I filled out my Student Loan papers wrong or something, but I did not receive enough money to pay for rent AND tuition/textbooks and other fees for a whole calendar year. I know they expect me to work; but in these times when jobs are hard to come by (or people just don't like my resume  ) I'm struggling to keep a roof over my head and in school.

What are we supposed to do? Not all of us are a fortunate as you.

*EDIT:* And when I did work, I wasn't paid enough to support myself before I was laid off; so I often had to work through several classes just to make sure I had enough rent for the month. Let's just say simply because of my unfortunate circumstance; I missed some assignment and even though I requested an alternate due date (or alternate writing time for a quiz) 3 days in advance - I was denied and ended up having to drop one course, and failed another out of 4 total. Why? "Work is not an excuse" Do universities think we all come from wealthy families!? It's ridiculous!


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## chrisf (11 Dec 2010)

What about you? Take time off, work, save money, go back to school. Can't find a job? A rough neck course is what? 20 days long?


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## lethalLemon (11 Dec 2010)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> What about you? Take time off, work, save money, go back to school. Can't find a job? A rough neck course is what? 20 days long?



I live in Vancouver; I cannot relocate. I do not have a car because I can't afford it and don't have any credit. I have sent out 59 applications, 62 resumes and cover letters. One phone call - and they called to tell me I wasn't being called in for an interview. All I have is my student loan; and if I take the time off to just work... what do I do about my loan? I have to pay it back once I'm no longer a student.

Your plan does not work for everyone.


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## chrisf (11 Dec 2010)

Here's a question, what is it you're doing in school?


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## lethalLemon (11 Dec 2010)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Here's a question, what is it you're doing in school?



Bachelor of Arts degree program in Crminology


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## chrisf (11 Dec 2010)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Bachelor of Arts degree program in Crminology



And now for the second question, what is it you intend to do post-graduation with said arts degree? Baring in mind, you'll have to pay your loan then too.

(This is not a dig at arts degrees, well, ok, maybe it is a bit, but I am intently curious as to your plan, as employment opportunities will be almost as limited post-graduation)


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## GAP (11 Dec 2010)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> I live in Vancouver; I cannot relocate. I do not have a car because I can't afford it and don't have any credit. I have sent out 59 applications, 62 resumes and cover letters. One phone call - and they called to tell me I wasn't being called in for an interview. All I have is my student loan; and if I take the time off to just work... what do I do about my loan? I have to pay it back once I'm no longer a student.
> 
> Your plan does not work for everyone.



I suspect that you are applying for positions that will fund you in a reasonable manner. That's great if you can get it, but you might have to lower your sights and work to offset a smaller portion of your costs....

Surprisingly, many of these positions lead to middle management positions if you have anything on the ball and are willing to put in the effort. Check it out.


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## aesop081 (11 Dec 2010)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> What are we supposed to do? Not all of us are a fortunate as you.




Get a job and work. Doesnt pay enough for a place to live ? Get a room mate(s) and split the bills. Work full-time for a while and save up for full-time school .......

fack, you guys act like no one before you has lived through this kind of thing.



			
				lethalLemon said:
			
		

> I live in Vancouver; I cannot relocate.



Personal choice. As a taxpayer, you mobility is not my problem. If you wanted to work, you would go where the jobs are. Thousands of Newfoundlanders managed to figure that one out........






			
				lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Your plan does not work for everyone.



Why is something that "works for everyone" my concern, as a taxpayer ?

I couldnt afford CEGEP and neither could my mother ( bless her for she did try) so i quit, joined the CF and paid my way through higher education on my own. Imagine that, i managed to do post-secondary without government freebies........


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## lethalLemon (11 Dec 2010)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> And now for the second question, what what is it you intend to do post-graduation with said arts degree? Baring in mind, you'll have to pay your loan then too.
> 
> (This is not a dig at arts degrees, well, ok, maybe it is a bit, but I am intently curious as to your plan, as employment opportunities will be almost as limited post-graduation)



I've always dreamed of becoming a Police Officer, I always had a dream of contributing to society to make it a better place. Ever since the day I saw the RCMP all decked out in the Red Serge during the Calgary Stampede parade when I was a young boy... That's what I wanted to do. Well, VPD and RCMP won't hire me until I'm 19; and they prefer people with post-sec education (not saying that they won't take me without it though); and my future Reserve forces training will give me a competitive edge when applying. However, my girlfriends father who's the head of the RCMP's Provincial Intelligence Centre in Vancouver said that there might be a hiring freeze for the next 4 years - but that would work because that's about the same time I'd complete my program.

In the meantime, I've been applying to every damn place from The Bay to Burger King.... and nothing.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Get a job and work. Doesnt pay enough for a place to live ? Get a room mate(s) and split the bills. Work full-time for a while and save up for full-time school .......
> 
> fack, you guys act like no one before you has lived through this kind of thing.
> 
> ...



Get a job and work? Easier said than done. How about you find me a job and see how successful you are. Didn't think so because people are so heartless and selfish that they don't want to help the poor and struggling who just want to secure themselves a better future so they don't end up dirt poor and on the streets with nothing. A.K.A. - Me.

Personal choice!? I moved out of Calgary in the first place because the rent and tuition are higher AND I wasn't being hired - I have had better chances here in Vancouver. A rent a room out of a house $700/month - all my meals are included, all my utilities, hell; the woman who owns the house even washes and folds my laundry. Sure , I could move somewhere else and split the bill with a roommate; but then in the end it's going to cost just as much because my utilities won't be included and I'll have to pay for my own food on a separate bill (might even cost more, plus rent increases every year).

None of my family could ever afford higher education in their lives. They still can't. What does that have to do with anything?


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## GAP (11 Dec 2010)

Some of what you said makes good economic sense, the rest is "The Struggle"....you'll be a stronger man for it, even if it doesn't feel like it right now....luck!


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## lethalLemon (11 Dec 2010)

GAP said:
			
		

> Some of what you said makes good economic sense, the rest is "The Struggle"....you'll be a stronger man for it, even if it doesn't feel like it right now....luck!



I need every ounce I can get. Thank you


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## aesop081 (11 Dec 2010)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> How about you find me a job and see how successful you are.



I have a 15 year old just like you. Wants money, complains she cant find a job. In one weekend, i found her 3. The problem was not getting a job.......

I have zero sympathy for your situation. Zero.



> Personal choice!?



Yes. Your entire story about living in Vancouver says exactly that. You have a good deal there so you are staying. thats YOUR choice.


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## lethalLemon (11 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I have a 15 year old just like you. Wants money, complains she cant find a job. In one weekend, i found her 3. The problem was not getting a job.......
> 
> I have zero sympathy for your situation. Zero.
> 
> Yes. Your entire story about living in Vancouver says exactly that. You have a good deal there so you are staying. thats YOUR choice.



No sympathy huh? Your 15 year old has done what? Gone to school. I have qualifications; unlike your precious little girl... and out of 59 applications and 62 SELF-DELIVERED resumes... Not a single one wanted an interview. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong; or is it because I'm a student? White? Short? Ugly? Who knows. But it's a piss off and depressing.


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## aesop081 (11 Dec 2010)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Who knows. But it's a piss off and depressing.



I'm sure it is. Under pressure, some people fold while others focus. Which one are you going to be ? Or are you just going to continue bitching about the cost of school ?

And you are a reservist to boot. You have one source of income and access to programs that a majority of fellow students do not. that you are still complaining and displaying that attitude is incomprehensible and, frankly, pretty sad.



> No sympathy huh?



None. Your problems have solutions but you are obviously unwilling to follow any of them. That is a CHOICE and does not deserve my sympathies, both personaly and as a taxpayer.


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## lethalLemon (11 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I'm sure it is. Under pressure, some people fold while others focus. Which one are you going to be ? Or are you just going to continue bitching about the cost of school ?
> 
> And you are a reservist to boot. You have one source of income and access to programs that a majority of fellow students do not. that you are still complaining and displaying that attitude is incomprehensible and, frankly, pretty sad.
> 
> None. Your problems have solutions but you are obviously unwilling to follow any of them. That is a CHOICE and does not deserve my sympathies, both personaly and as a taxpayer.



I'm an applicant; in the process. Not a Reservist, yet.

Care to share some of these solutions? I've tried many, and none have proved any worth. I'm still looking, I'm also not going to let my education go either; it's a dream come true for me to be even this far.


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## 57Chevy (11 Dec 2010)

Don't give up hope lethallemon.

Jobs are getting more and more scarce out there.
You might try some sideline jobs while looking for something more steady
like painting or repair work which could
bring in a few extra bucks. 

Moving to cut costs was a good choice.
Also look at where you can cut spending.
Those seemingly small expenses add up real fast over a month.


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## Fusaki (12 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I couldnt afford CEGEP and neither could my mother ( bless her for she did try) so i quit, joined the CF and paid my way through higher education on my own. Imagine that, i managed to do post-secondary without government freebies........



I get that, and I'm in the process of doing it in a similar way you did.  I did six years in the regs, a couple tours, invested the money, and now I'm in school and the reserves.

But my situation is VERY different than most of my peers.  The ones with rich parents aren't doing too bad, but the ones who are fending for themselves are pretty hurt'n at the moment.  I have friends who are recently out of school - many of whom hold graduate degrees - and are scraping by on minimum wage.  And this is in Toronto!  If there are no jobs here, than where should they be moving?  It's not like these people aren't hard workers either.  Having done the army thing and doing the university thing, the challenges might be different, but both require considerable effort.


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## Jarnhamar (12 Dec 2010)

I've lived in Kingston. I see where the students spend their money. ***** and complain about how expensive school is, they get OSAP and either head out to the malls and blow it on clothes or blow it on alcohol.  Friends went to food shelters or stocked the cupboards with instant noodles but they always had money for pitches of beer and shots.

You could tell when school was finished because the students would take all the nice furnature their parents bought them and leave it on the side of the road on garbage day instead of bothering to move it. 

Even without the rich parents in the mix. One girl I know racked up $70'000 (and counting) in OSAP and student loans. Lived in low income housing, kept changing what she wanted to take.

No sympathy for starving students.


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## chrisf (12 Dec 2010)

MGalantine said:
			
		

> If anything, I have issues with textbooks. Do Newton's Laws change every four months? No? Then why am I buying different textbooks that repeat the same thing? The prime difference in editions of my textbook happen to be that they rearrange the questions with different numbers- That's about it, and that's why I have issues with being forced to buy the TWELFTH EDITION for $250. Multiply that by six courses, and I just paid for $1250 books + HST that will become useless in four months.



Try e-bay and used retailers on amazon next term... most engineering books are pretty standard globally, and you'll either be able to find used editions or "international" editions (Same book, different ISBN, printed for the international market... so much cheaper... usually printed on lower quality paper, and sometimes the diagrams aren't quite as clear, but exactly the same information)

I bought my $1500 worth of books for online approx $350 this semester after shipping... (For those complaining about the price of education... see, that half-hour spent online saved me $1150... little bit of effort)


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## ballz (12 Dec 2010)

When it comes to textbooks I am convinced there is 1. some inside money getting passed around and 2. what they are doing is morally criminal.

Sig Op, not sure how your textbook works, but for almost every course I've done, the reason they make you buy the "x" edition is because that edition just got published 1 month ago, and so there is almost NO used copies laying around. There is somebody within the faculty that decides what textbook you will be using for a course, not the professor.

My business law class required us to buy an "x" edition of the book. The professor noted with us how furious he was that he was being forced to teach out of "x" edition, since the only difference between it and "y" edition (which was used the year prior) was the SIZE OF THE FONT/HEADINGS, and the order of the questions, which changed every single page number.

Is there any surprise that the textbook is usually chosen because a certain person is friends with the person who wrote it, or the prof is friends with that person, or the prof wrote the book himself?

If the government could find some way of cracking down on that garbage with legislature, they'd make education costs cheaper without subsidizing it further.

EDIT: By the way, this basically happens every September, with almost every course I've done so far in the business faculty... the stuff above is just one example.


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## chrisf (12 Dec 2010)

Any course you do, first thing, ask the prof/instructor "Do we need the text book for this course?"

Half the time they'll say no.

Second question "Will an older edition work?"

If all they did was change the font heading, buy the older edition, you'll be fine.

I know for a fact that your (ballz) school library holds copies of the all the text books for all the courses, if it's questions that have changed, copy the questions from the newer edition, work out of the older edition.

There's work arounds for all these things...

With regards to "international" editions, they're usually the latest edition, just printed for the international market, at a fraction of the price.

(Have you had the experience of having the course text book written by the course prof/instructor yet? That's a fun one... usually their book is reference material for the course because A. The material it's written on is so obscure it's only relevant to the single course anyway, and B. It's so poorly written that no one would buy it unless they specificly needed as a reference because of part a.)


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## ballz (12 Dec 2010)

Well I'm ROTP so it doesn't affect me... just a personal beef I guess, as it does affect most people I know.



			
				a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Any course you do, first thing, ask the prof/instructor "Do we need the text book for this course?"
> 
> Half the time they'll say no.



That's another thing that irks me, that dude in the faculty that makes them teach out of "x" textbook (because they know a guy that writes a textbook on that subject of course).

The international editions are, from what I know of them, definitely the best solution (besides government intervention, which isn't going to happen until I become PM.....).


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## Old Sweat (12 Dec 2010)

ballz said:
			
		

> When it comes to textbooks I am convinced there is 1. some inside money getting passed around and 2. what they are doing is morally criminal.
> 
> Sig Op, not sure how your textbook works, but for almost every course I've done, the reason they make you buy the "x" edition is because that edition just got published 1 month ago, and so there is almost NO used copies laying around. There is somebody within the faculty that decides what textbook you will be using for a course, not the professor.
> 
> ...


Many, many years ago a university professor let slip to a class I was in that he and his colleagues regularly made the latest edition of the textbooks authored by each of them mandatory. In other words, if professor A was teaching a class that used professor B's book, he would always make the latest edition as the only approved reference and B would reciprocate. This meant a hefty sum in royalties. 

For example, and this is from the general publishing world and may not be the same as academia, if a book retails for $40.00, it wholesales for $24.00 or 60% of retail. The author gets 15% of the wholesale price of $3.60 a copy. So, if the book sells 1000 copies, the author gets $3600.00. Now, and this is a big if, if the textbook retails for $250.00 and thus wholesales for $150.00 and 100 students take the course in the fall term, the author would get $150.00 x 100 x 15% = $2,250.00.

You should also appreciate that the university book store clears $100.00 a copy, or $10,000.00 on 100 copies of our hypothetical textbook. Figure how much a university makes on textbook sales each term and you can appreciate that this is a goose laying golden eggs. I fear without this source of income, universities would make it up another way, like hiking tuition.


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## chrisf (12 Dec 2010)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Many, many years ago a university professor let slip to a class I was in that he and his colleagues regularly made the latest edition of the textbooks authored by each of them mandatory. In other words, if professor A was teaching a class that used professor B's book, he would always make the latest edition as the only approved reference and B would reciprocate. This meant a hefty sum in royalties.



Funny side note on the subject of books, the first time I met Dr. Elliot Leyton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliott_Leyton), I had no idea he was an anthropology professor, an author, or more importantly, a noted expert on the subject of serial killers... all I knew was he was carrying a loaded shotgun, and wearing a t-shirt with a picture of himself printed on the front, along with "Hunting Humans" in large letters...


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## PuckChaser (12 Dec 2010)

MGalantine said:
			
		

> Kingston? IMHO Queens University doesn't exactly represent the rest of Canadian Post Secondary students... I won't go into the specific reasons why, but at least at my faculty in my university we just shake our heads whenever something like Homecoming makes the news. Does it sound like fun? Sure. Do we have tuition and books to pay for? Yes, and any reasonable student should see where their priorities lay.



Slightly off-topic, but 50% of the people that got arrested at the last big Homecoming party were not Queen's students. I'm in no way standing up for the party, but its unfar to tar them all as drunk partiers.

I paid my way through a 2 year college program with the CF. No OSAP, lived at home because it was the most economical thing to do (still paid rent and portions of the bills). I never knew how the students I worked with did it, drinks after work on Thursdays then a party or 2 on the weekend while living on their own with OSAP. Perhaps we need a better system than just handing students cash. Give them less money, but the OSAP portion to pay for their books and tuition goes directly to the school, not to them and maybe to the school later.


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## VIChris (13 Dec 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yet another example of the Black Bloc tactics being used.  I say, anyone showing up at a peaceful demonstration wearing a disguise to hide their identity is not there to be peaceful and should be arrested on the spot.



Absolutely!


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