# DAG'ing (red, green, res vs reg - merged)



## B.D. (17 Sep 2004)

What exactly is a Unit D.A.G.?
The Black Watch here in Montreal is having one tomorrow and I (recruit) have been asked to attend.
Also it is supposed to be an all day event but I did not have enough time to reschedule my civvy job around it. Would I be allowed to leave early ? ???

Cheers,


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## ackland (17 Sep 2004)

B.D. said:
			
		

> What exactly is a Unit D.A.G.?



A Departure Assistence Group

This is just a way to verify all you pers info. IE do you have a set of ID discs/card, 404 upto date. just the admin stuff.

To answer you second question probaly it will depend on you section comamander.


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## B.D. (17 Sep 2004)

Thanks TR! appreciate the reply

Is it pretty much SOP to not have much notice for these types of things ?

As a recruit who has not done BMQ yet-who would I report to ?

I seem to be not in the loop at the moment


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## ackland (17 Sep 2004)

jUST SHOW UP SOME ONE WILL TAKE RESPOSIBILITY FOR YOU.

The reason for you getting short notice is as you staded you are pretty new and no one knows you. Once you are in completely you will be aware of things in advance. It's the start of the traning year and bug are getting worked out.


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## baudspeed (10 Aug 2006)

I had asked a question regarding how possible it is to get a tou/posted overseas etc when in the army. and the response i was given below.

I was wondering if someone can define 'DAG Green'. I assume that this means 'Make the effort?'

Can anyone clarify.


If you join either infantry or armour, you will get posted to a unit after your training.  It may be the unit of your choice, or it may be where the Army needs you most. So, here's the formula:

A.   If you start now, and estimate a year for recruiting and six months for training
...
G.   And you "DAG Green" all the way through the pre-deployment training cycle.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (10 Aug 2006)

DAG = "Departure Assistance Group", but the term's come to mean more than that.

If you "DAG Green", you've completed all predeployment training, have medical and dental checks completed, have sorted out your personal administration (wills, IDs, ident disks, 404s, etc.) and are qualified for the position for which you've been tasked.

You only start to "DAG" once you've been identified against a specific position and have the approval of the chain of command to begin the deployment process.  Some units conduct some of this activity on an annual basis to get a jump on things.


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## baudspeed (10 Aug 2006)

Thanks! Thats a great discription.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (10 Aug 2006)

Nema problema...

I could add that if you "DAG Red", then a reason has been discovered to take you off the deployment (medical, training failure, etc.).  "DAG Yellow" means that you still have requirements to complete, but are still heading towards "DAG Green" once everything is done.


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## BKells (17 Nov 2006)

In preparation to apply for a tour, we've been told about the difficulties involved in DAGging green. Where can I find a checklist of what it takes to DAG green?


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## armyvern (17 Nov 2006)

Do you currently have access to EMAA?


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## BKells (17 Nov 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Do you currently have access to EMAA?



Judging by the fact that I don't even know what that acronym stands for-- no, I don't believe I do.


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## armyvern (17 Nov 2006)

Good answer. I'll see what I can pull up for you.


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## armyvern (17 Nov 2006)

OK...next time you are on the DIN...log into this site:

Click on your DAG button, it has the DAG checklist and it will show your current DAG status (if your Unit RMS clerks have been updating accordingly):

http://dhrim04.desc.mil.ca/emaa/ 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/7_05/7_05_dqol_screening-reint_e.asp

Found an electronic copy of the Soldier's Handbook for you:

Scroll down...checklist is in there

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/36CBG_HQ/pages/OVERSEAS_DEPLY_GUIDE.html


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## D3V1L6 (17 Nov 2006)

Check with your units orderly room, they should have Operational readiness verification (ORV) sheets, which is what your actually looking for.


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## George Wallace (17 Nov 2006)

A simplified version:

1.  You must be Medically fit - no medical problems that may preclude you from going.

2.  Dental - you must have no dental problems that may preclude you from going.

3.  PMED - your shots must be up to date, or easily done.

4.  Financial - you should have no financial problems that may preclude you going.  You have all your finaces and bills taken care of.

5.  Administrative - you should have no administrative problems that would preclude you going, and your Will must be up to date.  Also ID, Passport photos, etc. must be good to go.

6.  Security Clearance - you have the proper clearances for your job.

7.  404's - you must have valid 404's.

8. Padre - you must have no problems at home that may preclude your going.   (ie. Spousal problems, pregnancy due, Caregiver problems, etc.)

That covers most, but not all.   All common sense socio-economic things that have to be done before you go.


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## BKells (17 Nov 2006)

Thanks guys.


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## BKells (15 Nov 2007)

Just came back from my Medical part 1 at NDMC. I was told that, as a Class A reservist, they're not allowed to give me the immunizations I require-- even though I'm going to be Class C starting in Jan. Will this affect my ability to DAG green? Can I just get it done in Pet?

Is there some sort of form I am supposed to be bringing around with me to get people to sign it? The social worker implied that there was one, but the people who staff my BOR are unaware of any sort of form.

The people in my BOR gave me a form and told me to get a civilian dentist to clear me for DAG. Other people have said you need to go to a military dentist. What's the real deal?


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## Scoobie Newbie (15 Nov 2007)

Talk to your immediate supervisor who should be able to get the answers to your questions


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## PO2FinClk (15 Nov 2007)

And mention the CFARV Form and DDIO Chap 12 Section 6 Annex K Appendix 1.

As I "assume" you will be part of Roto 6, wouldn't hurt to go through the relevant docs found at this DIN Link: http://lfdts.army.mil.ca/G3/ji-ir/default_e.asp

My guess is they will give you needles only once you are Class C, not when you think or expect to be.


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## Roy Harding (15 Nov 2007)

Check with your Ops/Trg/Tasking guys too.  Many times (in my experience) this info and related forms are on the CFTPO.

Good luck with your tasking - stay safe.


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## PuckChaser (15 Nov 2007)

You should be able to get on contract without having immunizations, I know with Roto 4 they had a massive DAG week, which was just a conveyor belt of people getting things done. One of them was an area for immunizations.

Prepare to be a pincushion!


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## Brasidas (14 Mar 2010)

So my reserve unit's asked for names for 1-11 and 5-11, and I put mine in.

I've got a fair bit of time before September and predeployment training come around, but I figure it wouldn't be a bad idea to identify and address potential hassles sooner rather than later.

What do I need to do to DAG green, and what are potential problems in doing so?


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## Biohazardxj (14 Mar 2010)

Go to your OR and ask for a copy of your PRV form.  Or if you have access to EMMA you can get it yourself.  Once you have a copy look and see which items are GREEN/YELLOW/RED.  Some items, such as PEN form, Will, Memorial Cross, etc can be taken care of now.  Other thinks such as immunization, you don't need to worry about until you have actually been selected to go and you are somewhat closer to your pre-deployment date.

If an item is Green, then you are good to go.  Anything Yellow or Red has expired and will need to be dealt with.  Ask your OR staff.  That's what they are there for.


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## Brasidas (14 Mar 2010)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> Go to your OR and ask for a copy of your PRV form.  Or if you have access to EMMA you can get it yourself.  Once you have a copy look and see which items are GREEN/YELLOW/RED.  Some items, such as PEN form, Will, Memorial Cross, etc can be taken care of now.  Other thinks such as immunization, you don't need to worry about until you have actually been selected to go and you are somewhat closer to your pre-deployment date.
> 
> If an item is Green, then you are good to go.  Anything Yellow or Red has expired and will need to be dealt with.  Ask your OR staff.  That's what they are there for.



One of the reasons that I'm bringing this up here is the clerks at my unit.

Of the two that are nominally at my unit, one's on course and the other's on extended compassionate leave. The "clerk" that's filling in doesn't have his 3's and was unable to even handle a route letter for a tasking I went on last month. Meanwhile, I expect to be out of town on taskings and such over much of the summer, when the professionals are expected to return. It'd be nice not to have a panicked scramble for those clerks when I get back in late August.

I'm unfamiliar with a PRV form or EMMA. If the PRV form's in a file cabinet, I'd hope buddy's capable of pulling it out of a drawer. I've got DWAN access, if that's likely to give me access to EMMA. 

Items such as the PEN, will, and Memorial Cross forms seem relatively straight-forward.

Are there any longer leadtime items that I should be trying to get a jump start on? Examples that I can think of are my not having done an Express test in the last three years, as my unit hasn't bothered with them despite having CFB Edmonton half an hour away.


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## Biohazardxj (14 Mar 2010)

If you have DWAN access and an email account then you can easily create an EMMA account.  I dont have the address for EMMA here, but if you go to your Brigade home page there may be a link to it there.  I'll post the address tomorrow after work.

Yes you could/should go do your express test.  Check to see if your ID card is up to date.  If you have 404s make sure it is up to date.   Things like medical, dental, passport will have to wait until you have been selected.  Once you have a copy of your PVR in front of you, you will know what items you can/should do now and which ones will have to wait.


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## Brasidas (14 Mar 2010)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> If you have DWAN access and an email account then you can easily create an EMMA account.  I dont have the address for EMMA here, but if you go to your Brigade home page there may be a link to it there.  I'll post the address tomorrow after work.



Much appreciated.



> Yes you could/should go do your express test.  Check to see if your ID card is up to date.  If you have 404s make sure it is up to date.   Things like medical, dental, passport will have to wait until you have been selected.  Once you have a copy of your PVR in front of you, you will know what items you can/should do now and which ones will have to wait.



Exactly what I was looking for.


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## PuckChaser (14 Mar 2010)

Keep a typed copy of a Memorial Cross and PEN form, leaving the signature and date blank. When you DAG, you'll probably fill out about 8 of them, far easier to sign a photocopy and date it.

If you haven't had a medical done in the last 5 years, you should be able to book that as a Cl A type. That way, when it comes time to clear medically, you've got a recent medical and you get the rubber stamp.


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## Biohazardxj (15 Mar 2010)

Here is the DWAN website for EMMA

http://img-dcb-aemaa01.forces.mil.ca/emaa/engraph/login_e.asp


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## dapaterson (15 Mar 2010)

Areas to focus on:

IBTS completion
Valid Fitness test result
Medical currency (within 5 years if under 40, within 2 years if 40 or over)
Dental Fitness
Security clearance
ID Card
ID Disk (Dog tags)

Paperwork:  Will, PEN, Memorial Cross Designation


Given consistent problems with soldiers reporting when they have not DAG`d green (or sometimes even yellow), the Army is becoming increasingly insistent that admin be completed prior to joining the TF for workup training.


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Mar 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Areas to focus on:
> 
> IBTS completion
> Valid Fitness test result
> ...




Even when you show up all green and current, they will still make you do it all again anyway, sometimes more than once, so you can spend 9-12 months pre-training for a six month tour ;D


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## Brasidas (15 Mar 2010)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> Here is the DWAN website for EMMA
> 
> http://img-dcb-aemaa01.forces.mil.ca/emaa/engraph/login_e.asp



Great!


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## PuckChaser (16 Mar 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Given consistent problems with soldiers reporting when they have not DAG`d green (or sometimes even yellow), the Army is becoming increasingly insistent that admin be completed prior to joining the TF for workup training.



Being DAG'd green is impossible for a Cl A reservist, health services won't touch them unless they have a 180 day Cl B or a Cl C contract in hand, unless they've changed the policy since I did my tour 3 years ago. I can see the issue if Reg F members are showing up, even being sent to deploy and unable to DAG....


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Mar 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Being DAG'd green is impossible for a Cl A reservist, health services won't touch them unless they have a 180 day Cl B or a Cl C contract in hand, unless they've changed the policy since I did my tour 3 years ago. I can see the issue if Reg F members are showing up, even being sent to deploy and unable to DAG....



Not true. Medicals (at least down here) just need to be booked. If you have no dental problems, your done.


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## PuckChaser (17 Mar 2010)

Perhaps it depending on the Health Services Unit. In Kingston, if you mention the word DAG and you're Cl A, they ask for a contract.


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## CountDC (18 Mar 2010)

hmmmm recall back in 98 while in Halifax I called the hospital to enquire about getting a reserve member a medical done.  Wasn't sure if they would do it but they pointed out to me that according to regulations all members of the CF are required to have medicals done every 5 or 2 years depending on age.  They said that included reservists but in general the reserves do not get it done because of 2 reasons - the reserve member normally does not want to take the time out of the day and the unit does not want to pay the reservist to have the medical done.  Booked 3 members with no problems.  Needed the medicals because we were nominating them for positions that required them to be certified med and dent fit (DAG green).


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## Celticgirl (19 Mar 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> They said that included reservists but in general the reserves do not get it done because of 2 reasons - the reserve member normally does not want to take the time out of the day and the unit does not want to pay the reservist to have the medical done.  Booked 3 members with no problems.



Count, sort of a comment/question: I was told by my CC that we reservists need to be medically fit to be offered a Class B contract. True? Wouldn't that also apply to Class A, though, and if not, why not?  ???


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## CountDC (19 Mar 2010)

Good questions that I have attempted a search for and have been unable to come up with anything so far that states that.  Back then that was the opinion at the Base Hospital in Halifax and I was happy to go with it and have medicals done for the unit when they wanted them.  If memory serves correct 33 Med in Halifax used to do medicals at one time too although they may have been only enrolment ones.

Think it is time to use contacts and see what they say.  Hopefully I find something good.


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## Celticgirl (19 Mar 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Good questions that I have attempted a search for and have been unable to come up with anything so far that states that.  Back then that was the opinion at the Base Hospital in Halifax and I was happy to go with it and have medicals done for the unit when they wanted them.  If memory serves correct 33 Med in Halifax used to do medicals at one time too although they may have been only enrolment ones.
> 
> Think it is time to use contacts and see what they say.  Hopefully I find something good.



Let me know if you come up with anything. Thanks.


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## CountDC (19 Mar 2010)

Even the Ombudsman say the problem:

http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/rep-rap/sr-rs/rc-str/rep-rap-04-eng.asp#pha-esp

Periodic Health Assessments
In the military, a periodic health assessment is also called a “medical.” A medical is considered current if it has been done within the last five years for members under 40 years of age, within the last two years for members aged 40 to 50, and within the last year for those members older than 50.

The Canadian Forces provides medicals to these standards for Regular Force members. By contrast, Reservists are only given medicals for enrolment, release, promotion, and prior to proceeding on Class B service of more than 180 days or Class C service. Reservists who have not recently been promoted or deployed may go years without having a medical assessment by the Canadian Forces. Therefore, a significant number of Reservists do not have current Canadian Forces medicals on file.

This difference can have a negative impact on Reserve personnel who are needed for domestic immediate operations, which are short notice operations requiring the immediate mobilization of members. In these cases, there is insufficient time to conduct a formal screening process. Chief of Military Personnel Instruction 20/04 states that for domestic immediate operations, the Commanding Officer must certify that the member has a current medical on file. Those without must undergo a medical assessment and be found fit or be excluded from the deployment.

A number of Reservists on Class A and Class B service of 180 days or less do not have current medicals on their file because there is no defined policy stating that they are required, nor are they eligible to receive periodic health assessments from the Canadian Forces. Although the present policy does not require periodic health assessments to be current, Reservists are expected to be fit, employable and deployable for general operational duties.

The absence of an up-to-date periodic health assessment record for Reservists limits the Canadian Forces’ capability to efficiently screen for domestic operations in a timely manner. We were told that Canadian Forces Health Services does not have sufficient personnel to medically assess Reservists en masse and on short notice for domestic operations.

A senior medical authority advised our investigators that when the Canadian Forces mobilized Reservists in 2003 to fight forest fires in British Columbia,17 there were risks taken:

…the blip is manageable and predictable when it comes to the numbers that we look forward [sic] to go on a rotation to Afghanistan, for example. The numbers were not manageable when we mobilized basically everybody to fight the BC forest fires. We ended up doing some pretty slipshod, shortcut kinds of things to get everybody documented and put on Class C. I wasn’t very happy about it, but…

Others confirmed this view. Our investigators were told that the Canadian Forces do not have the capacity to do complete medical assessments on short notice for a substantial number of Reservists (as would be required for emergency domestic operations), and that the only way to do this many short notice assessments would be to reduce the quality.

The consequences that result from this situation are: 

Members are sent on missions without sufficient screening, leading to the inclusion of unhealthy members on operations and the associated risks to their well-being and that of others; 
Members are not sent on operations because they cannot be screened for medical fitness, leading to the exclusion of healthy, medically-fit and capable Reservists; and 
Medical practitioners are placed in an ethical dilemma as a result of having to balance the need of the individual Reservist for a thorough screening against the needs of the public in having a robust response to the domestic emergency. 
The lessons learned report from Operation Peregrine included a comment that “the procedure to put Reservists on Class C service is cumbersome and NDHQ-centered, creating an administrative burden and putting at risk a timely response to the operational requirements.” The proposed solution to the cumbersome process was to waive the need for a current medical status for Reservists.

Our Office takes vigorous exception to the solution proposed, since it breaches a fundamental principle of fairness. In this case, the Canadian Forces duty of care is essentially the same for Reserve Force personnel as it is for Regular Force personnel. If a qualified authority deems that a current medical assessment is necessary for determining the medical fitness status of a Regular Force member for the purpose of deployment on operations, then the same standard must be applied to a Reservist. If this requirement can be waived for a Reservist, then one must question the value and validity of the requirement in the first place.

This matter is not lost on some Reserve commanders who have taken initiatives on their own. A staff officer in personnel at a Reserve brigade headquarters told investigators:

Our Commander has been pushing this the last couple of years. He’s directed to each one of the COs [Commanding Officers] that everyone is to have a periodical medical. That is something that we are taking on our own because we are not built for that in the system. So therefore it comes out of the hide of the unit budget to make it happen.


The issue of appropriate standards for periodic health assessments was also discussed at the June 2007 meeting of the Strategic Military Human Resources Council. At that meeting, Council endorsed the adoption of a standard for periodic health assessments for implementation in Fall 2008 or January 2009. This standard called for assessments every two years for both the Regular Force and the Primary Reserve.

We note with approval that this approach applies equally to both Regular and Reserve Force personnel. However it is not yet implemented, and in the interim, it is unfair that most Reservists do not enjoy the same protection gained from periodic health assessments as their full time counterparts. Sick, injured or medically unfit Reservists need to be identified through periodic health assessments in order to prevent further injury to themselves, or increased risk to other members of their unit. Therefore,

We recommend that, within 12 months following the publication of this report, the standards for periodic health assessments be applied equally for Primary Reserve and Regular Force personnel.
                                                                                                                                                                                           
for those interested:

Reserved Care: An Investigation into the Treatment of Injured Reservists

http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/rep-rap/sr-rs/rc-str/index-eng.asp

My contacts are split on this with no one able to provide a clear policy, only pers opinion or the unwritten policy they have followed (the Med A said yes, reg and res the same).  Still waiting for some responses and still looking but to be honest I think this most likely is still the same - no official policy saying yes they are to be done with local policy dictating what is actually done.


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## Celticgirl (19 Mar 2010)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Our Commander has been pushing this the last couple of years. He’s directed to each one of the COs [Commanding Officers] that everyone is to have a periodical medical. That is something that we are taking on our own because we are not built for that in the system. So therefore it comes out of the hide of the unit budget to make it happen.



I am going to infer from this, then, that it is our CO making that decision at our unit. I'm pretty surprised that it's not an actual policy for all reservists, however. Interesting. Not a day goes by that I don't learn something new.  8)


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## Tetragrammaton (20 Mar 2010)

The only potential down side to having your medical, social worker, and dental appointments too early is that they will most likely not be valid for the actual pre-training and deployment time frame. As for the rest of the paper work your reserve unit orderly room will need to sit down with you to make sure the required docs are updated and entered into the Human Resource Management System (HRMS). One aspect you may want to look into civvie side is your getting a notarized Last Will and Testament, Power of Attorney and Living Will. There are forms available through the military, but they are rather basic and depending on your own personal situation and complexity of your estate, I find them rather limited.

Other than that just make sure you recently passed your Battle Fitness Test or CF Expres Test.

Stay fit!


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## brihard (21 Sep 2011)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Last year I was RSM of a Total Force 350 member IRU for the G8/G20 Op CADENCE, which we built from the ground up from 18 P Res units, elements of 70 Comm Gp and 2 Svc Bn.  I share your pain!  Surprisingly, during the pre-deployment phase the overwhelming majority of my DAG REDs came from the Regular Force.



Out of curiosity sir, what were the big lessons learned that came out of that without or TBG for force generation? I know how it all got perceived at our level as one of the Sect Comds, but we never really heard how things went higher up, and how it might affect the next time we do something like that. I get the impression that a similar force generation concept (and TBG structure) looks set to be exercised for Ft Knox... Will there be noticeable changes at the level of individual units, or of Pl/Coy once we glom together?


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## aesop081 (21 Sep 2011)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Surprisingly, during the pre-deployment phase the overwhelming majority of my DAG REDs came from the Regular Force.



Well lets see, i was a Ref guy at the G8/G20.......my DAG was all fucked up . I was on the tail end of several OUTCAN deployment so my FA was expired, my 404s were expired. etc...........Yeah, being DAG RED, on its own doesn't mean too much. Of course, if i had been a reservist and not gone every second week, i might have been able to keep that stuff up.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Sep 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Well lets see, i was a Ref guy at the G8/G20.......my DAG was all fucked up . I was on the tail end of several OUTCAN deployment so my FA was expired, my 404s were expired. etc...........Yeah, being DAG RED, on its own doesn't mean too much. Of course, if i had been a reservist and not gone every second week, i might have been able to keep that stuff up.



We don't need the bitter conjecture, and we can leave the Reg\ Res bullshit at the door.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Haggis (22 Sep 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Well lets see, i was a Ref guy at the G8/G20.......my DAG was all ****ed up . I was on the tail end of several OUTCAN deployment so my FA was expired, my 404s were expired. etc...........Yeah, being DAG RED, on its own doesn't mean too much. Of course, if i had been a reservist and not gone every second week, i might have been able to keep that stuff up.



Since your brought it up (and. clearly, you weren't one of mine) the majority were for what were deemed "preventable/fixable" items that should have been covered during unit and sub unit IBTS and DAG, such as handling tests, CBRN and FA as well as some medical isues such as arriving on a TCat or with expired innoculations.  Yes, there were BFT failures, too, equally split beteween Reg F and P Res.

My point was that the main effort of ensuring a deployable DAG status was towards the P Res.  The Reg F were "expected" to arrive 100% Good 2 Go and that wasn't the case.   The effort has to be spread around as many of my Reg F DAG REDs were critical members of my CSS element.  We fixed it, in the end, but not without substantial staff effort and a little bit of luck.


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## Haggis (22 Sep 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity sir, what were the big lessons learned that came out of that without or TBG for force generation? I know how it all got perceived at our level as one of the Sect Comds, but we never really heard how things went higher up, and how it might affect the next time we do something like that. I get the impression that a similar force generation concept (and TBG structure) looks set to be exercised for Ft Knox... Will there be noticeable changes at the level of individual units, or of Pl/Coy once we glom together?



I'd say that the biggest lesson was that the effort required to DAG a Class A Reservist has to be expended BEFORE we decide to stand up a Task Force - not after.  It's imperative, in my view, that Class A Reservists  -and their chains of command - have to put more effort into achieving and maintaining a near-deployable PRV/DAG status.  There are somethings that are perishable and resource intensive to maintain, but the administrative stuff (i.e. PEN forms, Military Leave Action Plans, Will Certificates, I Cards, I Discs, 404s etc.) is the most overlooked.

The unfortunate thing about deploying Reservists is that we fail to learn from past lessons, particularly when it comes to administration.  It's been said that when we deploy Reservists we're not doing admin for Roto 6 were doing admin for Roto 0 for the sixth time.


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## Rheostatic (22 Sep 2011)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I'd say that the biggest lesson was that the effort required to DAG a Class A Reservist has to be expended BEFORE we decide to stand up a Task Force - not after.  It's imperative, in my view, that Class A Reservists  -and their chains of command - have to put more effort into achieving and maintaining a near-deployable PRV/DAG status.  There are somethings that are perishable and resource intensive to maintain, but the administrative stuff (i.e. PEN forms, Military Leave Action Plans, Will Certificates, I Cards, I Discs, 404s etc.) is the most overlooked.
> 
> The unfortunate thing about deploying Reservists is that we fail to learn from past lessons, particularly when it comes to administration.  It's been said that when we deploy Reservists we're not doing admin for Roto 6 were doing admin for Roto 0 for the sixth time.


Is it the reserve member's responsibility to maintain a green PRV? If so it would be handy to have a reference. Efforts to be proactive about keeping this document up to date are met with "Are you deploying? No? Then you don't need this." I'm willing to put in the effort, and I think others who want to be deployable would agree with me.


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## dapaterson (22 Sep 2011)

I can't speak for every unit in the CF, but all those I've been in start every September with a review, where you go visit pay, the OR, the mess and so on to make sure our admin is up-to-date - PEN forms; Silver Cross Designations; 404s; tax deductions at source and so on are all reviewed and updated where necessary.


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## OldSolduer (22 Sep 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I can't speak for every unit in the CF, but all those I've been in start every September with a review, where you go visit pay, the OR, the mess and so on to make sure our admin is up-to-date - PEN forms; Silver Cross Designations; 404s; tax deductions at source and so on are all reviewed and updated where necessary.



And that is exactly what the WITG did on 6 Sep, except all the reps were at tables and the troops had all their paperwork done at that time.


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## Haggis (22 Sep 2011)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> Is it the reserve member's responsibility to maintain a green PRV? If so it would be handy to have a reference. Efforts to be proactive about keeping this document up to date are met with "Are you deploying? No? Then you don't need this." I'm willing to put in the effort, and I think others who want to be deployable would agree with me.



Yes, it is the member's responsibility, supported and enabled by the chain of command and ASU/support base.  This is quite true, particularly for things like medical, dental and innoculations.  These cost the ASU/support base time and money which is usually charged back against an operation's fin code..  I, too have run into this.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> I can't speak for every unit in the CF, but all those I've been in start every September with a review, where you go visit pay, the OR, the mess and so on to make sure our admin is up-to-date - PEN forms; Silver Memorial Cross Designations; 404s; tax deductions at source and so on are all reviewed and updated where necessary.



A slight correction for you. :-D

Some units are very, very good at this.  Others less so.  When you (as I did) are deploying a formed unit drawing from 20+ parent units it becomes quite obvious - very quickly - which units/brigades pay lip service to DAG/PRV and which give it due attention.


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## dapaterson (22 Sep 2011)

In a former life I worked on the Land Staff and saw national data.  Looking only at "pers who haven't paraded a year or more" as a metric of how well units keep records up-to-date, the quality of admin followed a clear line of deterioration; from the best down east to the worst out west, with 38 CBG an outlier of quality administration (second best in Canada, as I recall).


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## Rheostatic (22 Sep 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I can't speak for every unit in the CF, but all those I've been in start every September with a review, where you go visit pay, the OR, the mess and so on to make sure our admin is up-to-date - PEN forms; Silver Cross Designations; 404s; tax deductions at source and so on are all reviewed and updated where necessary.


Agreed, but my gripe is that these updates don't always make it to the PRV, in particular things that don't get checked every year, like medicals, PFET, clearance etc. 

A Class A soldier with an expired medical (and the corresponding big red box on their PRV) will be turned away by health services unless they already have a spot on an upcoming deployment (at least in my neck of the woods).


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Sep 2011)

The kick in the nuts to most Reservists comes when they get called, are told they have to have their IBTS current, shooting, BTF, et al and work their asses off to get it done in time. Then they show up, are told it doesn't count, and we waste countless days and resources redoing the whole thing again. If they won't take the unit's word, quit wasting our time asking us to do it before we show up. If a person fails something the Unit should get saddled with the total expense to replace them.


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## aesop081 (22 Sep 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The kick in the nuts to most Reservists comes when they get called, are told they have to have their IBTS current, shooting, BTF, et al and work their asses off to get it done in time. Then they show up, are told it doesn't count,



Don't flatter yourself, this is not a reserves problem. This is a CF-wide problem. Guys in my former unit were having to redo-items on their PRV that were current, just because they were deploying on an operation.


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## PMedMoe (22 Sep 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Don't flatter yourself, this is not a reserves problem. This is a CF-wide problem. Guys in my former unit were having to redo-items on their PRV that were current, just because they were deploying on an operation.



You're right, and don't think it's just as Res/Reg thing.  I've seen people do a BFT three times in one year before they were deployed.  Once with the unit (still current), one with the work-up unit (unnecessary) and one overseas.  Absolute bullshit.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Sep 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Don't flatter yourself, this is not a reserves problem. This is a CF-wide problem. Guys in my former unit were having to redo-items on their PRV that were current, just because they were deploying on an operation.



Not flattering myself and you can pull in your neck. I'm simply relating our experience. If you wish to do the same for the Regs, please do, without the sarcastic rhetoric.


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## OldSolduer (22 Sep 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Not flattering myself and you can pull in your neck. I'm simply relating our experience. If you wish to do the same for the Regs, please do, without the sarcastic rhetoric.



Good points - if on the PRV sheet it says current....why is the CoC not following it?

IMO - Egos of some of the CoC - "they didn't do it under MY watch, therefore they SHALL do it again"


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## aesop081 (22 Sep 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm simply relating our experience.



Which is the same as most, no matter if they are Reg or Res. Might i suggest you pull in your own neck and work on your "woe is me reservist" sensibilities.


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## Dissident (23 Sep 2011)

And here we go again...


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Sep 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Which is the same as most, no matter if they are Reg or Res. Might i suggest you pull in your own neck and work on your "woe is me reservist" sensibilities.


Go piss up a rope. 

With my 35+ years on both sides of the fence, (including your sanctified Air Trades), I doubt there's much a youngster like you can teach me 8) You really have to watch who you decide to draw a sword against.

So, you have a good day (HAGO) and keep thinking that you're really that much more special than anyone else, Reg or Reserve.

In passing, just for shiggles:

"A delusion is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, stupidity, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception.

Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness, although they are not tied to any particular disease and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders including schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression."

I'm not a Doctor, nor do I play one on TV. Everything I pass on is done with simple justification that what I read is true, no matter the source.
Kinda like being in the Air Force. 

Just sayin' :2c:


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## Sigs Pig (18 Oct 2011)

recceguy, you seemed to have missed a spot....

"Grandiose delusions are distinct from grandiosity, in that the sufferer does not have insight into his loss of touch with reality. An individual *is convinced* he has special powers, talents, or abilities. Sometimes, the individual may actually believe he or she is a famous person or character (for example, Napoleon).

Grandiose delusions or delusions of grandeur are principally a subtype of delusional disorder but could possibly feature as a symptom of schizophrenia and manic episodes of bipolar disorder. Grandiose delusions are characterized by fantastical beliefs that one is famous, omnipotent, or *otherwise very powerful.* The delusions are generally fantastic, often with a supernatural, science-fictional, or religious bent. In colloquial usage, one who overestimates one's own abilities, talents, stature or situation is sometimes said to have 'delusions of grandeur'. This is generally due to _excessive pride_, rather than any actual delusions."

ME


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## Brasidas (19 Oct 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Don't flatter yourself, this is not a reserves problem. This is a CF-wide problem. Guys in my former unit were having to redo-items on their PRV that were current, just because they were deploying on an operation.



There is a difference between a reservist who spends half their training time updating their IBTS and other DAG checks in the box.

The crown isn't obligated to not waste either a reg or a reservist's time, but when your unit's training year is structured around getting this done and it is so frequently disregarded, then change the requirement to the unit's training year or change the requirement to have buddy do it all over again.

The unit's spending a more limited proportion of its resources than a reg force unit, and the member's spending more of his limited training time on it. The waste has more of an impact on the reserve.


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## Haggis (19 Oct 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Good points - if on the PRV sheet it says current....why is the CoC not following it?
> 
> IMO - Egos of some of the CoC - "they didn't do it under MY watch, therefore they SHALL do it again"



There is also the dynamic of trust.  "We can't trust the units to do it right" coupled with "We have to verify (insert DAG PRV item here) so we may as well do it all to be sure."

Huge waste of time, money and effort.  But, the risk adverse chain of command doesn't want to chance that someone deploys and then is killed/injured/RTU due to a DAG/PRV shortfall.


And can we PLEASE stay on topic?  Remember, a lot of big shiny heads read Army.ca and this thread has a lot of potential to bring up good solutions for the Armoury floor.


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## PuckChaser (19 Oct 2011)

I think Rheo hit the nail on the head for some of the major issues with the PRV, outside agencies. When I was a reservist it was difficult to get health services to look at you as a Cl A, or even Cl B under 180 days. Maybe its changed now, but it was sure bad back then. I don't know where you're at, Rheo, but every 5 years you should be getting a medical done regardless of class of service.

How hard would it be to get an MO/PA with a medtech in for a Thursday night and have them complete the annual medical PRV? Its just a questionnaire and a 5 minute interview. If the member did have any problems, they could be encouraged to see their civilian doctor and DAG'd yellow. Either that, or each year a Cl A member would be responsible to bring in a note from their dentist/doctor stating they were medically/dentally fit from their perspective. Reimburse the cost of the note but it would reduce the strain on the health services system somewhat.


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## Sigs Pig (19 Oct 2011)

Haggis said:
			
		

> And can we PLEASE stay on topic?



Sorry about that earlier....

I tried my best to deploy with TF3-09 and as a lifer civilian, I had a DIFFICULT time sitting around waiting for training, 1400km from home. While the members living close to Ed were home EVERY weekend.
In three months I got to fire the M72 (first time ever)... and qualify PWT2 on the C7 (which I had done to PWT3 back at my Unit). With other problems at home I sadly backed out and had to RTU. That was the extent of my training and had six more months to go! This was my tax dollars at work.

If I would have been kept busy with training, I would not have minded *redoing all* of the check boxes required, but my mind was always going back home....

ME

Added: I have never had a problem getting a CF medical, it is done every two (or three?) years, but maybe with my advanced years they respect my request more? For the DAG, the CF dentist was a difficult one to see.


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## BDTyre (19 Oct 2011)

As others have stated here, the biggest issue I encountered when going through the DAG process was repetition. I was lucky and only had to redo a few things, such as weapons handling (which was run quite poorly and almost worked on the honour system). As my BFT was current, I only did it once on pre-deployment - others in the platoon did it 5 times, mostly because there was no other training planned. I never did the PWT3 on pre-deployment, and it expired before I deployed (by about two weeks), but no one seemed terribly concerned.


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## PuckChaser (19 Oct 2011)

The predeployment training process is shortening quite a bit. I don't know whether its a product of the lower(?) intensity in Kabul or lessons learned, but I'm heading to Gagetown for Op Attention Roto 1 for approx 1 month before Christmas, month of leave over Christmas, a month after Christmas and then embarkation leave with a deployment timeframe near the end of February. My first tour involved predeployment training from January to August, thankfully as I was deploying from a specialist unit we were exempt from being attach posted to Valcartier for 8 months before a 7 and a half month tour.


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## BDTyre (20 Oct 2011)

That is drastically shortened, but perhaps it has to do with your role over there? We sent a Sgt on Roto 0 and a Cpl on the MCU for KAF. I believe they both began predeployment last October and they deployed the same date in May. We had another Cpl who was slated to leave in May as a driver/support on Roto 0 and he only just hit the ground in the last week - he was kept in Edmonton the time in between.


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## Rheostatic (20 Oct 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I think Rheo hit the nail on the head for some of the major issues with the PRV, outside agencies. When I was a reservist it was difficult to get health services to look at you as a Cl A, or even Cl B under 180 days. Maybe its changed now, but it was sure bad back then. I don't know where you're at, Rheo, but every 5 years you should be getting a medical done regardless of class of service.


 I thought as much and I'd like to find a ref to back it up.

On Cl A, dental is "not applicable" on the Personal Readiness Verification, so it's grey rather than green/yellow/red. If, as the PA told me, I can't get a new medical without an upcoming promotion or deployment, why should it be flagged red?


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## Redeye (20 Oct 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The predeployment training process is shortening quite a bit. I don't know whether its a product of the lower(?) intensity in Kabul or lessons learned, but I'm heading to Gagetown for Op Attention Roto 1 for approx 1 month before Christmas, month of leave over Christmas, a month after Christmas and then embarkation leave with a deployment timeframe near the end of February. My first tour involved predeployment training from January to August, thankfully as I was deploying from a specialist unit we were exempt from being attach posted to Valcartier for 8 months before a 7 and a half month tour.



The initial plan for some Op Attention folks was the 18 day PSTC course - looking at the info in my JIs and some of the correspondance it seems that it was decided relatively last minute to shift all sorts of things around and add a lot more to work up - convoy drills were the only thing specifically mentioned though.

I didn't have too much trouble getting my PRV stuff done fairly quickly, I've just got a few minor things to look after of my own before I go. I do love that we have to have signed off that our PWT and BFT are current, even though we'll be doing it all in Gagetown - repeatedly, to be sure.

My biggest trick is going to be figuring out what the hell to do with myself with that month over Christmas!


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## Rheostatic (26 Oct 2011)

I had to quote this. I'm speechless...





			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> No, we're all ACISS now. Actually, if you check EMAA under Readiness Level you'll notice every SigOp, LCIS and Lineman is now DAGed Red as we do not belong to a valid MOS. Comical considering all the heartache they've gone through so far....


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## CountDC (1 Nov 2011)

Can't recall it off the top but I am sure there was and most likely still is a regulation stating the reservist is to have a medical done every 5 years. If I get a chance I will search for it - found one back in the 90's when employed at a medical unit.

as a side on this - one of the problems with getting medicals done for cl a reservists is that they have to be paid for their time and most units do not want to foot that bill for Johnny to go play with the reg f.  You are looking at up to 2 days pay for every member of the unit to complete a medical - the CO's look at that as another training weekend lost.

I know some will say I would do it without getting paid but the CO's can not count on every member of the unit doing that plus I am sure there is some legal issue in there too.


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## dapaterson (1 Nov 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Can't recall it off the top but I am sure there was and most likely still is a regulation stating the reservist is to have a medical done every 5 years. If I get a chance I will search for it - found one back in the 90's when employed at a medical unit.
> 
> as a side on this - one of the problems with getting medicals done for cl a reservists is that they have to be paid for their time and most units do not want to foot that bill for Johnny to go play with the reg f.  You are looking at up to 2 days pay for every member of the unit to complete a medical - the CO's look at that as another training weekend lost.
> 
> I know some will say I would do it without getting paid but the CO's can not count on every member of the unit doing that plus I am sure there is some legal issue in there too.



CF Medical standard is every 5 years for those under 40, every 2 years for those over.  Different clinics provide different levles of support to the Reserve Force, though - it seems to be a local option thing, unfortunately.  The Ombudsman's report on Reserved Care seems to have made very little difference.


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## Rheostatic (1 Nov 2011)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Can't recall it off the top but I am sure there was and most likely still is a regulation stating the reservist is to have a medical done every 5 years. If I get a chance I will search for it


I would appreciate that, thanks.





			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> one of the problems with getting medicals done for cl a reservists is that they have to be paid for their time and most units do not want to foot that bill for Johnny to go play with the reg f.  You are looking at up to 2 days pay for every member of the unit to complete a medical - the CO's look at that as another training weekend lost.
> 
> I know some will say I would do it without getting paid but the CO's can not count on every member of the unit doing that plus I am sure there is some legal issue in there too.


In my case it wasn't the unit that prevented my medical, it was Health Services. I actually completed the medical part 1, and during Part 2, the PA said "Oh, you're Cl A? Goodbye!". For what it's worth I went on my own time. I don't agree with your estimate of 2 days pay, more like a half day every 5 years, but you're right in that we can't require members to do this without signing in.


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## CountDC (2 Dec 2011)

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/20-04-eng.asp  CF Mil Pers Instr 20/04 Para 2.6 is a start point, especially the note at the end:

Note- Canadian Forces Health Services (CFHS) shall provide all medical and dental evaluations and treatment required to confirm and ensure serving members' fitness for continued service in the CF.

Still looking for more though when I have time.

Note I did say up to 2 days pay and that is based on my experiences.  Part 1 and Part 2 are done on different days.  Depending on the day it is possible that the member could reach the 6 hours mark to turn it into a full day or they may be told their appointment is being rebooked to another day.  My own experience in Halifax for part 1 once was I had to be there at 0700 hrs for sign in and then wait.  I Did not leave until almost 1330 hrs.  That same day they asked for volunteers to rebook their appointments.  Turns out medics get sick too.

When I worked with the reserves I did send some members for medicals in Halifax.  If there was anything requiring treatment the member was referred to their own doctor.  At the time the hospital attitude was the same - all military are required to have up to date medicals.


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## rocksteady (20 Apr 2015)

I would like to know what is supposed to happen when you DAG Red for a tour and where the policies for such things can be located. I've heard different things that you can't go on career courses or taskings for a year but I would like to see what is on paper for all things DAG Red.  If someone could point me in the right direction that would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## DAA (20 Apr 2015)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> I would like to know what is supposed to happen when you DAG Red for a tour and where the policies for such things can be located. I've heard different things that you can't go on career courses or taskings for a year but I would like to see what is on paper for all things DAG Red.  If someone could point me in the right direction that would be appreciated.



For overseas deployments, the screening is conducted IAW the CDIO's.  In the case of a Regular Force member being screened "DAG RED", Unit's conducting the screening are suppose to notify D Mil C (ie; CM) when a DAG RED occurs and the circumstances surrounding the reason for this.   In cases where the DAG RED is considered to be a "chronic" issue, then the matter is to be referred to DMCA to initiate an AR (Administrative Review) which could result in administrative action being taken against the individual.  Nevertheless, there is nothing preventing a CO at Unit Level, from implementing Remedial Measures should they be warranted.

CDIO 1000 Series - Section Three - Personnel Administration


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## rocksteady (20 Apr 2015)

Thank you DAA.  I will check out the CDIOs which is a first for me.


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## Ostrozac (20 Apr 2015)

In practice, it very much depends on the scenario.

One member could DAG Red for becoming pregnant, another member could have a serious dental problem, and a third member could be non deployable because they are facing civilian criminal charges.

Unlikely that there would be any repercussions at all for the first two. The third member has bigger issues.


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## Eye In The Sky (20 Apr 2015)

Replace Padre with Social Worker. Additionally if you have a spouse they have to come with you or be reachable by phone during your DAG appointment or the SW will not sign off and your Medical DAG portion halts right then and there. 

404s, not a hard and fast requirement to DAG green for all mbrs. 

ID and passport must be valid for a certain amount of time past your return date.  6 months is a good base for this.  

Lastly, all identified mission specific pre-deployment trg must be complete and Clothing Stores has to sign off you have all your kit or it is ordered and will arrive before your chaulk date.


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## George Wallace (20 Apr 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Replace Padre with Social Worker. Additionally if you have a spouse they have to come with you or be reachable by phone during your DAG appointment or the SW will not sign off and your Medical DAG portion halts right then and there.




```
[color=yellow][SIZE=19px]WARNING[/SIZE][/color]
```

Sometimes the Padre is not your friend.  I had a Padre DAG me RED for a deployment.  We had to visit the Padre with our spouse, and when he asked her if she was "worried that I was going to deploy".  She answered honestly and said "Yes".  Of course she was worried.  Any spouse would be.  That then entailed the two of us going to the Social Workers and spend a half day in interviews to sort out what the Padre had done.  I DAGGED GREEN after visiting the Social Workers.


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## Eye In The Sky (20 Apr 2015)

Recently deploying people have not been seeing the padre, at least at some Mounting locations.

BUT the same thing can happen if the spouse says that "yes" to the SW too.  I don't get it either, for the record.


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## CountDC (23 Apr 2015)

Thinking I am having a bad week and would try here for the answer as there is usually someone with the answer already.

I have noticed a few members dag red - age restricted.  I was looking for the impact that this has on a member as far as deployments go.  Can they still go if they agree to it?  Is there an option for the military to still send them if they don't want to go?  Red is normally a stop until resolved but how do you resolve a members age??


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## dapaterson (23 Apr 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> how do you resolve a members age??


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## George Wallace (23 Apr 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ...... but how do you resolve a members age??



Sounds like a Charter Challenge......"Age Discrimination"....... >

I would think that 'physical fitness' and 'health' would be more important to a person's ability to deploy, not the date on a Birth Certificate.  


(Although "Age Discrimination" is not suppose to have been practiced in the CAF for the past two or three decades, it still exists.)


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Apr 2015)

I have noticed that age block during APRVs and wondered what it means but really have no idea, it never applied to me.

How would someone who is not CRA dag red for age?


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## dapaterson (23 Apr 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> How would someone who is not CRA dag red for age?



If they'll hit CRA while deployed, or while in their post-deployment period, they can't deploy.


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## Ostrozac (23 Apr 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If they'll hit CRA while deployed, or while in their post-deployment period, they can't deploy.



That same "experienced" member will also DAG Red for Terms of Service. Since those expire at CRA.

Age works on the other side, as well. Our 16 and 17 year old members of the CF are not supposed to be deploying on operations. The window for operational service is supposed to be age 18 to age 59, inclusive.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Apr 2015)

Rog, thanks.


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## Pusser (24 Apr 2015)

As I understand it, the UN will not accept personnel over 55.  So, you will DAG red for a UN deployment if you are over 55.


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## CountDC (24 Apr 2015)

All good answers but I ran a check and found I am red - age restricted and none of these apply.

55 - nope
CRA - nope
TOS - nope

According to my staff that was there last year when we did our ARV and I just laughed at it.  Guess it is suitable that I am red when I don't even remember it.  I do however remember to go to the bathroom when I pee.......I think. ???


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## rocksteady (29 Apr 2015)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Replace Padre with Social Worker. Additionally if you have a spouse they have to come with you or be reachable by phone during your DAG appointment or the SW will not sign off and your Medical DAG portion halts right then and there.



I don't see how this can be true as they cannot force your spouse to be available by phone or to attend.  They never even wanted to talk to my spouse when I did my DAG and all my stuff was signed off.


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## DAA (29 Apr 2015)

CountDC said:
			
		

> All good answers but I ran a check and found I am red - age restricted and none of these apply.
> 
> 55 - nope
> CRA - nope
> ...



Possibly a "data" anomaly being created somewhere in HRMS?


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## George Wallace (29 Apr 2015)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> I don't see how this can be true as they cannot force your spouse to be available by phone or to attend.  They never even wanted to talk to my spouse when I did my DAG and all my stuff was signed off.



It may depend on where you are deploying, and when.  Not all Deployments are the same.  Not all DAGs will be the same.


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