# Manditory service requirement



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob A." <carversbench@csolve.net>* on *Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:18:19 -0400*
Hi all,
I have always been interested in our military and lately I have been 
trying to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself "If I were in 
charge no such single person of course and could just wave the 
proverbial magic wand what changes could I make to promote our military 
and its‘ members, raise awareness and authenticate the interest of the 
Canadian public in our Forces ?"
As we are all concerned about our military and its well being, I wanted 
to pose a question to the group, however outrageous it may be viewed.
How do you folks feel about the idea of our government bringing in a 
mandatory service of some kind? Generally a two year involvement for 
each and every healthy individual.
So what so you think?
Looking forward to you responses.
Rob A.
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Hi all,
I have always been interested in our military 
and lately I
have been trying to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself "If 
I were
in charge no such single person of course and could just wave the 
proverbial
magic wand what changes could I make topromote our military and 
its‘
members, raiseawareness and authenticate the interest of the 
Canadian
publicin our Forces ?"
As we are all concerned about our military and 
its well
being, I wanted to pose a question to the group, however outrageous it 
may be
viewed.
Howdo you folksfeelabout the 
idea of our
governmentbringing in a mandatory service of some 
kind?Generally a
two year involvement for each and every healthy individual.
So what so you think?
Looking forward to you responses.
Rob A.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 13:24:52 EDT*
Well, I don‘t think it‘s that bad of an idea, but I think it would have to be 
polished up a little. 
    For example, if someone wanted to train to be a doctor or a lawyer or 
something which necessitated a lot of schooling, I think they might have to 
be exempted. Also, I don‘t  like the idea of making women join the service. 
That doesn‘t sit well at all. But, I think that generally, it may  be a good 
idea.
                            -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:14:56 -0400*
I think that‘s a great idea. Many European countries already have this 
policy ex Switzerland and it seems to be most beneficial for them. I 
think it would teach the youth responsibility and discipline and produce 
a higher quality of work force. I‘m not sure how well it would go over 
in Canada but if it could some how be implemented and keep the public 
happy I would fully support it.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Rob A.
  To: army mailing list
  Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2000 1:18 AM
  Subject: Manditory service requirement
  Hi all,
  I have always been interested in our military and lately I have been 
trying to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself "If I were in 
charge no such single person of course and could just wave the 
proverbial magic wand what changes could I make to promote our military 
and its‘ members, raise awareness and authenticate the interest of the 
Canadian public in our Forces ?"
  As we are all concerned about our military and its well being, I 
wanted to pose a question to the group, however outrageous it may be 
viewed.
  How do you folks feel about the idea of our government bringing in a 
mandatory service of some kind? Generally a two year involvement for 
each and every healthy individual.
  So what so you think?
  Looking forward to you responses.
  Rob A.
I think that‘s a 
great idea. Many
European countries already have this policy ex Switzerland and it 
seems to be
most beneficial for them. I think it would teach the youth 
responsibility and
discipline and produce a higher quality of work force. I‘m not sure how 
well it
would go over in Canada but if it could some how be implemented and keep 
the
public happy I would fully support it.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Rob
  A. 
  To: army mailing list 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 
2000 1:18
  AM
  Subject: Manditory service 
requirement


  Hi all,

  I have always been interested in our military 
and lately
  I have been trying to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself 
"If I
  were in charge no such single person of course and could just wave 
the
  proverbial magic wand what changes could I make topromote our 
military
  and its‘ members, raiseawareness and authenticate the interest 
of the
  Canadian publicin our Forces ?"

  As we are all concerned about our military and 
its well
  being, I wanted to pose a question to the group, however outrageous it 
may be
  viewed.

  Howdo you folksfeelabout the 
idea of
  our governmentbringing in a mandatory service of some
  kind?Generally a two year involvement for each and every healthy 
  individual.


  So what so you think?

  Looking forward to you responses.
  Rob A.

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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
message body.


----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:25:30 GMT*
No politician in the world would go for it, I think too unpopular, too 
costly, but I think it‘s not a bad idea.
Would help fight youth unemployment which is still very high in this 
country, would give young people practical and technical skills to 
compliment their academic educations Business people are always going on 
about the need for this - maybe you could get some of them to back a 
campaign to promote this idea! and it would help revive the idea that our 
country to which we owe both service and loyalty - a notion that, in my 
opinion, anyway, is far too rare and that shows up in, among other things, 
our endless whining about a lack of a "national identity".
An interesting question, all around. What made you think of it?
Joan
>From: "Rob A." 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: "army mailing list" 
>Subject: Manditory service requirement
>Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:18:19 -0400
>
>Hi all,
>
>I have always been interested in our military and lately I have been trying 
>to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself "If I were in charge no 
>such single person of course and could just wave the proverbial magic 
>wand what changes could I make to promote our military and its‘ members, 
>raise awareness and authenticate the interest of the Canadian public in our 
>Forces ?"
>
>As we are all concerned about our military and its well being, I wanted to 
>pose a question to the group, however outrageous it may be viewed.
>
>How do you folks feel about the idea of our government bringing in a 
>mandatory service of some kind? Generally a two year involvement for each 
>and every healthy individual.
>
>
>So what so you think?
>
>Looking forward to you responses.
>Rob A.
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:44:00 EDT*
Well, Jay, I think you just about hit the nail on the head.
    In my opinion, our forces have to change a lot. Granted, I am not 
currently enlisted, nor do I hold a commission, but we need to make Canadians 
more aware of the Forces and the need for service. I also think mil. spending 
must DRASTICALLY increase. 
    I find it very discomforting to think about our military‘s current 
condition. We have molded a wonderful nation for ourselves. One worth 
protecting to the last man. The fact that our politicians seemingly have no 
use for the military, nor does the general public, is unnacceptable.
    I think the numbers have to go way up, recruiting must improve in a big 
way, awareness of the CF and it‘s near endless oppurtunities needs to be 
enhanced. By a long shot.
    It‘s disgusting that, should the **** hit the fan, we‘d be basically 
relying on other nations to defend us. I know that goes without saying due 2 
the UN, Nato, etc, but I think we should be able to provide a large, 
flexible, mean figting force to defend ourselves with.
    General Question: Is there any remedy for our current lack of 
‘everything‘ besides commiting ourselves to war?
    If so, how can we help move things along?
                        -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *DHall058@aol.com* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:58:24 EDT*
Down here in the land of endless government programs, mandatory government service programs have been discussed at least once a year.  We have had a lot of non-mandatory variations Civilian Conservation Corps of the 1930s, Peace Corps, Americorps, Job Corps, but as others have mentioned, aside from the military draft, our politicians have shied away from requiring national service.  In the masters degree program that I‘m in the middle of, we have discussed the pros and cons of a mandatory service requirement.  The consensus is that such a program would have to apply to everyone, male or female no deferments if you happen to have wealthy parents or political connections!, not just be military-based i.e. medical school with a resulting obligation, construction, teaching, law enforcement,homeless outreach, legal services., and pay a living wage with medical benefits and educational incentives like the GI Bill.
I think Canada has a better chance of pulling this off than the U.S., but y‘all would know that better than I!
Dave Hall
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:32:00 -0700*
If the aim is to improve image, then mandatory must imply all - no exemptions.
Once the first exemption is permitted, those who consider themselves special can
and will lobby for more exemptions.  This will have negative effects on the
perception of the military - those who avoid service probably disregard the
military in the first place those who can‘t avoid service will resent not
having the privilege of exemption and blame the military.
"National service", in which alternate employment options are available, won‘t
necessarily help.  I can imagine soldier A, digging holes in the rain in
Wainwright, might resent civilian B, making beds and cleaning bedpans in a warm,
dry hospital - and blame the military as the most immediate cause of the
situation.  Another problem is that unskilled jobs will be removed from the
employment pool by a succession of "national service" enlistees to the detriment
of those who must make their living from such work.  Finally, if the number of
annual enlistees exceeds the pool of jobs in work areas in which the federal
government has any business poking its fingers, we will be confronted with the
spectacle of make-work projects at the expense of other spending.
As much as I enjoy my reserve service, I would not have been pleased at the
prospect of two of the best years of my life wasted square bashing and digging
holes after high school graduation.  And that‘s about all I would envision for 1
or 2 years of service.
In essence, compulsory service with the aim of nation-building as opposed to a
genuine omnipresent threat of war is a "stick", and I tend to prefer "carrot"
approaches.
Brad Sallows
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob A." <carversbench@csolve.net>* on *Wed, 13 Sep 2000 04:18:27 -0400*
Hi Joan,
In answer to your question on mandatory service: "what made you think of 
it"?
Just off the top of my head I would say concern for my country and its 
population.
As I mentioned I am worried of the problems that exist with the military 
but to be more precise I worry about how little our population considers 
its importance.
By creating a military that worked hand in hand with education we could 
have the benefit of work experienced, employable young people.
Consider this:
Student "A" is a non starter. He/she has grown up not sure of their 
place, wants or ambitions. Little discipline at home and less at school. 
Little interest in anything and generally holding an apathetic attitude 
to life.  Grade ten and sixteen is as far as they can stomach school. 
Out they go. But where? Not all these kids are dumb and few are lost 
causes. Well we all know the multitude of "where‘s" that these kids end 
up and most are not pretty. 
Enter mandatory service.
This offers aptitude testing, training and a position that their limited 
education can tolerate as well as courses to better round the 
individual. In two years you have a work experienced,  better educated 
18yr old with a bit of "life experience" under their belt. They also 
have a few bucks in the bank to rent a nice apartment, get some wheels 
and grab a civy job.  The world cannot survive on university grads. We 
need truck drivers, machine operators and skilled labour as much as we 
need anyone with a BA or what have you.
Student "B" is a college hopeful. While attending college they are 
employed by the military in their field of educational endeavour. 
Engineering for example. These young adults would gain valuable work 
experience every employers dream and in exchange for another year or 
two of service, could have the advantage of a some kind of education 
subsidy.
Student "C" is a university major. Say medical. Man, there‘s some 
availability for experience in that field overseas. How about computer, 
mechanical and electrical engineering? Subsidising these students for 
their military involvement according to their commitment.
All end up with some great stuff out of this. Education, work 
experience, some cash in the bank to find a job and get settled, life 
smarts and a broader prospective of what life has to offer both here and 
abroad.
The benefit to Canada of course is a young, yet palatable, work force 
with some drive and hopefully some ambition and skills.
We would build respect and admiration for the involvement the military 
would play in educating and raising our youth. We are all responsible 
for them, especially the ones left behind
Canada would be more capable of defining our identify and by building a 
strong well rounded armed forces. We could play a heavier world wide 
role in industry and technology by farming out some of these much needed 
talents to the rest of the world. It‘s not hard to see how this idea 
would end up paying for itself, and in different ways 
i.e.:economically, socially if done properly.
I think direction and hope would be the most tangible benefits.
Regards
Rob Ayres
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Adil Shamji" <adilshamji@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:07:12 EDT*
Hello Everybody,
I certainly agree our military needs more exposure and could use a lot more 
funding.  With regards to compulsary military service, while I think the 
idea is sound, it could have some serious problems as outlined by Mr. 
Sallows.  However, there are alternatives.
I‘m only 15 16 in 8 days and counting! and obviously too young to join the 
military.  Whether my parents would let me join when I come of age is also a 
question.  I am, however, an Air Cadet.  No doubt, being an Air or Army or 
Sea Cadet does not make one a pilot or soldier or ...um...a boat driver?  
What I mean to say is that Cadets any service teaches certain military and 
non-military skills that some members of this list have suggested compulsary 
military service would provide.
Logic tells me that if conscription were ever required, former cadets would 
be conscripted first.  Therefore, cadets can serve a similar purpose to 
compulsory military service.
As a result, the problem of conscientious objectors or having to take two 
years out of your life to learn how to shoot a rifle is no longer an issue.
If cadets can do the job of compulsory military service, why not save money 
and just promote cadets better?
Well, that‘s just my two cents worth...
>From: "Rob A." 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: "army mailing list" 
>Subject: Manditory service requirement
>Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:18:19 -0400
>
>Hi all,
>
>I have always been interested in our military and lately I have been trying 
>to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself "If I were in charge no 
>such single person of course and could just wave the proverbial magic 
>wand what changes could I make to promote our military and its‘ members, 
>raise awareness and authenticate the interest of the Canadian public in our 
>Forces ?"
>
>As we are all concerned about our military and its well being, I wanted to 
>pose a question to the group, however outrageous it may be viewed.
>
>How do you folks feel about the idea of our government bringing in a 
>mandatory service of some kind? Generally a two year involvement for each 
>and every healthy individual.
>
>
>So what so you think?
>
>Looking forward to you responses.
>Rob A.
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Jean-F Menicucci <menicucci@videotron.ca>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:15:17 -0400*
Guys we have to get serious, mandatory service, will kill any political parties
that applied it,
it is politically too dangerous for any of the guys at Ottawa, and even if we
look at France that just abolished his services a short time ago it did not
promoted any image of the Armed Forces.
jf
Juno847627709@aol.com wrote:
> Well, I don‘t think it‘s that bad of an idea, but I think it would have to be
> polished up a little.
>     For example, if someone wanted to train to be a doctor or a lawyer or
> something which necessitated a lot of schooling, I think they might have to
> be exempted. Also, I don‘t  like the idea of making women join the service.
> That doesn‘t sit well at all. But, I think that generally, it may  be a good
> idea.
>                             -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:20:00 EDT*
Awesome Rob. Absolutely wicked.
Seriously, what do you think the odds are of our government thinking of 
implementing something like this??
Maybe if the service was just used for those without a high school diploma or 
something like that....
I really think you‘ve got an awesome thing here.
I really hope it‘s brought to someone‘s attention.
It sounds naive, sure, but under all that skeptisism many have for youth me 
jumping into ideas like this feet first, I thnk they really admire it. And if 
it‘s possible to get a strong following, I think anything can happen.
        If you feel strongly enough about this, do something about it, and 
I‘m sure you‘ll have lots of support.
                                -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steven R Clark" <sclark@canada.com>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:33:54 -0400*
Matt,
I know this will draw a fair amount of flak, but why would you consider
making madatory service any less mandatory for women?
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: Manditory service requirement
> Well, I don‘t think it‘s that bad of an idea, but I think it would have to
be
> polished up a little.
>     For example, if someone wanted to train to be a doctor or a lawyer or
> something which necessitated a lot of schooling, I think they might have
to
> be exempted. Also, I don‘t  like the idea of making women join the
service.
> That doesn‘t sit well at all. But, I think that generally, it may  be a
good
> idea.
>                             -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steven R Clark" <sclark@canada.com>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:35:56 -0400*
Joan,
Do you remember way back in the 80‘s, when two gov‘t agencies got together
and impleted at least three variations of a youth employment program...aka
YTEP? Didn‘t fly for very long.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: Manditory service requirement
> No politician in the world would go for it, I think too unpopular, too
> costly, but I think it‘s not a bad idea.
>
> Would help fight youth unemployment which is still very high in this
> country, would give young people practical and technical skills to
> compliment their academic educations Business people are always going on
> about the need for this - maybe you could get some of them to back a
> campaign to promote this idea! and it would help revive the idea that our
> country to which we owe both service and loyalty - a notion that, in my
> opinion, anyway, is far too rare and that shows up in, among other things,
> our endless whining about a lack of a "national identity".
>
> An interesting question, all around. What made you think of it?
>
> Joan
>
>
> >From: "Rob A." 
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To: "army mailing list" 
> >Subject: Manditory service requirement
> >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:18:19 -0400
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >I have always been interested in our military and lately I have been
trying
> >to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself "If I were in charge
no
> >such single person of course and could just wave the proverbial magic
> >wand what changes could I make to promote our military and its‘ members,
> >raise awareness and authenticate the interest of the Canadian public in
our
> >Forces ?"
> >
> >As we are all concerned about our military and its well being, I wanted
to
> >pose a question to the group, however outrageous it may be viewed.
> >
> >How do you folks feel about the idea of our government bringing in a
> >mandatory service of some kind? Generally a two year involvement for each
> >and every healthy individual.
> >
> >
> >So what so you think?
> >
> >Looking forward to you responses.
> >Rob A.
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
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>  http://profiles.msn.com. 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Todd Harris" <harris@nortelnetworks.com>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:43:28 -0400*
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
I think it would be great.  However there are a number of issues with that
happening.  Some I can think of off hand are:

Budget Who‘s going to pay for it?
Equipment We don‘t have enough for the troops we have now.  And more
equipment goes with my above point
Political Will There isn‘t one
Training Area/Base space There would need to be massive capital projects to
build new bases or expand the current ones

Just my 2 cents worth.


Todd Harris 
Subject: Manditory service requirement
Hi all,

I have always been interested in our military and lately I have been trying
to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself "If I were in charge no
such single person of course and could just wave the proverbial magic wand
what changes could I make to promote our military and its‘ members, raise
awareness and authenticate the interest of the Canadian public in our Forces
?"

As we are all concerned about our military and its well being, I wanted to
pose a question to the group, however outrageous it may be viewed.

How do you folks feel about the idea of our government bringing in a
mandatory service of some kind? Generally a two year involvement for each
and every healthy individual.


So what so you think?

Looking forward to you responses.
Rob A.

I think it would be great. However there are a number 
of issues with that happening. Some I can think of off hand 
are:
Budget Who‘s going to pay for it?
Equipment We don‘t have enough for the troops we have 
now. And more equipment goes with my above point
Political Will There isn‘t one
Training Area/Base space There would need to be massive 
capital projects to build new bases or expand the current 
ones
Just my 2 cents worth.
Todd Harris 
Subject: Manditory 
service requirement
  Hi all,

  I have always been interested in our military and lately 
  I have been trying to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself "If I 
  were in charge no such single person of course and could just wave the 
  proverbial magic wand what changes could I make topromote our military 
  and its‘ members, raiseawareness and authenticate the interest of the 
  Canadian publicin our Forces ?"

  As we are all concerned about our military and its well 
  being, I wanted to pose a question to the group, however outrageous it may be 
  viewed.

  Howdo you folksfeelabout the idea of 
  our governmentbringing in a mandatory service of some 
  kind?Generally a two year involvement for each and every healthy 
  individual.


  So what so you think?

  Looking forward to you responses.
  Rob A.

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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob A." <carversbench@csolve.net>* on *Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:13:28 -0400*
Thanks for your comments Bradley,
  In reply, I think your right.
  Mandatory would have to mean everyone. I believe this for the same 
reason I believe that school uniforms should be mandatory. Why should a 
kid that can‘t afford the fancy shoes and cool pants be treated like any 
less of a person than the one who can.
  One of the benefits of this type of thing would be the evening of the 
playing field for everyone at an age where it can really make an 
impression.
  It is for that reason that I think that soldier "A" would not 
necessarily be stuck in a ditch. Granted there would be some that would 
fall into that category but chances are they will end up there 
regardless and they will resent whether digging the ditch for a private 
firm or the army.
This is why the government would have to make available the tools and 
opportunities to those who showed aptitude and intelligence regardless 
of their schooling record. Thats not to say you take education entirely 
out of the equation though. There‘s lots of smart ‘drop outs‘ on the 
street, believe it or not. The solution, I think is providing sincere 
and realistic opportunity. ‘Opportunity‘ being the "carrot" spoke of.
  Your right about the unskilled jobs being removed to a certain degree. 
I think what would have to happen is to aim at creating as many 
"skilled" workers as possible from each years pool.
  For instance, have you seen how many ads there are  in the employment 
section for experienced truck drivers. just one example that pops into 
mind Just a thought.
Thanks for your input!
I look forward to more.
Sincerely Rob A

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Thanks for your comments Bradley,
 In reply, I think your right. 
 Mandatory would have to mean everyone. I 
believe
this for the same reason I believe that school uniforms should be 
mandatory. Why
should a kid that can‘t afford the fancy shoes and cool pants be treated 
like
any less of a person than the one who can. 
 One of the benefits of this type of thing 
would be
the evening of the playing field for everyone at an age where it can 
really
makean impression. 
 It is for that reason that I think that 
soldier "A"
would not necessarily be stuck in a ditch. Granted there would be some 
that
would fall into that category butchances are they will end up 
there
regardless and they will resent whether digging the ditch for a private 
firm or
the army. 
This is why the government would have to make 
available
the tools and opportunities to those who showed aptitude and 
intelligence
regardless of their schooling record. Thats not to say you take 
education
entirely out of the equation though. There‘s lots of smart ‘drop outs‘ 
on the
street, believe it or not. The solution, I think is providing sincere 
and
realistic opportunity. ‘Opportunity‘ beingthe "carrot" spoke of.
 Your right about the unskilled jobs being 
removed
to a certain degree. I think what would have to happen is to aim at 
creating as
many "skilled" workers as possible from each years pool.
 For instance, have you seen how many ads 
there
are in the employment section for experienced truck drivers. just 
one
example that pops into mind Just a thought.
Thanks for your input!
I look forward to more.
Sincerely Rob A

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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 13 Sep 2000 00:30:21 GMT*
Well said, Matt.
Our reliance on other countries militarily is especially disturbing, I 
think, when you consider the degree to which we rely on our neighbours to 
the south. They‘re a good country, a great country, and the best of allies, 
but I‘ve met a few too many Americans mostly conservatives who seem to 
have an eye on prying off Alberta and British Columbia these days.
Maybe that‘s what the people out West want though I doubt it, but it would 
be nice to know we‘re not so intertwined with/dependent on our allies that 
we can‘t even make a convincing political - not military, of course - Can‘t 
imagine it would ever come to that! defense of the importance of Canadian 
territorial integrity. After all, it seems to me that a country that doesn‘t 
care enough about its continued existence to provide for its own defense 
isn‘t likely to be around for very long.
Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: Juno847627709@aol.com
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: Re: Manditory service requirement
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 14:44:00 EDT
Well, Jay, I think you just about hit the nail on the head.
     In my opinion, our forces have to change a lot. Granted, I am not
currently enlisted, nor do I hold a commission, but we need to make 
Canadians
more aware of the Forces and the need for service. I also think mil. 
spending
must DRASTICALLY increase.
     I find it very discomforting to think about our military‘s current
condition. We have molded a wonderful nation for ourselves. One worth
protecting to the last man. The fact that our politicians seemingly have no
use for the military, nor does the general public, is unnacceptable.
     I think the numbers have to go way up, recruiting must improve in a big
way, awareness of the CF and it‘s near endless oppurtunities needs to be
enhanced. By a long shot.
     It‘s disgusting that, should the **** hit the fan, we‘d be basically
relying on other nations to defend us. I know that goes without saying due 2
the UN, Nato, etc, but I think we should be able to provide a large,
flexible, mean figting force to defend ourselves with.
     General Question: Is there any remedy for our current lack of
‘everything‘ besides commiting ourselves to war?
     If so, how can we help move things along?
                         -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:10:12 EDT*
Thanks for your support Joan, and I fully agree with what you‘ve said.
I think I made the wrong impression when I stated the ‘I‘ wouldn‘t be all 
that comfortable with forcing women to enlist.
Let me explain a little- I think that, as long as he\she can cut it in every 
aspect of the militaryphysically, mentally, etc,, he-she should be allowed 
in to whatever trade she wants into.
All I meant is that I personally wouldn‘t feel all that comfortable having to 
go into combat with women. Not that they wouldn‘y be effective soldiers, but 
I know that being the old fashioned guy I am, I would tend to favour them 
should something happen. Especially if I held a commision and one was under 
my command.
Now, I‘m being frank and down to earth. I think, despite your opinions, you 
know I"m not being intentionally prejudice. I just think that way. I often 
think I actually belonged way back when..... Really. Sometimes I wonder why I 
wasn‘t soldiering during one of our wars. I don‘t know... And, no, I"m not 
nuts.
Sorry for any hard feelings.
                            -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:31:10 -0700*
In the 90s, just before I took my release, my Unit was allowing women in
Combat roles artillery. As individuals, some of the females that I
trained, and worked with, were as able, or more so, than many of the males.
That aside, I found, and many of my fellow Snr NCOs agreed, that their
presence had a disruptive effect in the Unit. Not in how they functioned as
soldiers, but the effects they had on group dynamics. Imagine a unit smoker
when 3/4 of the male soldiers are trying to gain the affections of one of
the female soldiers. Or when a pretty, well-endowed, or whatever female
course candidate is legitimately excelling on a course, when all the sour
grapes types proclaim it is favouritism. Imagine the affect on a platoon
when one of your own female members is found raped and tortured at the
hands of an enemy, as opposed to a similar affect, if the soldier was male.
Maybe all female units is the way to go, instead of co-ed. Not to open
another can of worms, but I think the same applies to gays in the military.
Just as capable as individuals, but the Unit morale is affected negatively
possibly, even if it is due to archaic or unfounded views.
On a related story, I was talking to a WWII vet, who was friend of mine, one
day. He was relating to me a discussion he had had with a young female
officer who was lividly defending women in combat. The old gent smiled at
her and said that during the war, he saw a lot of his comrades headed back
to Canada in body bags, and he thought if half of them would have been
female, it would have suited him just fine. Of course, she quickly pulled in
her horns, sputtering that wasn‘t what she meant, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: Manditory service requirement
> Thanks for your support Joan, and I fully agree with what you‘ve said.
> I think I made the wrong impression when I stated the ‘I‘ wouldn‘t be all
> that comfortable with forcing women to enlist.
> Let me explain a little- I think that, as long as he\she can cut it in
every
> aspect of the militaryphysically, mentally, etc,, he-she should be
allowed
> in to whatever trade she wants into.
> All I meant is that I personally wouldn‘t feel all that comfortable having
to
> go into combat with women. Not that they wouldn‘y be effective soldiers,
but
> I know that being the old fashioned guy I am, I would tend to favour them
> should something happen. Especially if I held a commision and one was
under
> my command.
> Now, I‘m being frank and down to earth. I think, despite your opinions,
you
> know I"m not being intentionally prejudice. I just think that way. I often
> think I actually belonged way back when..... Really. Sometimes I wonder
why I
> wasn‘t soldiering during one of our wars. I don‘t know... And, no, I"m not
> nuts.
> Sorry for any hard feelings.
>                             -Matt
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:38:04 EDT*
I‘m not sure about the ‘gay‘ thing, but I whole heartedly agree with 
everything Mac. I guess I‘m just not quite as elequent. That‘s what I was 
trying to say when I said I would tend to ‘favour‘ women in combat.
    Thanks a ton.
                        -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:47:49 -0700*
Well, I guess I was saying that the gay thing , in my mind, is similar in
principle. I don‘t necessarily think its the same, just parallel, in a lot
of ways.
Ubique
Marshall MacFarlane
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Manditory service requirement
> I‘m not sure about the ‘gay‘ thing, but I whole heartedly agree with
> everything Mac. I guess I‘m just not quite as elequent. That‘s what I was
> trying to say when I said I would tend to ‘favour‘ women in combat.
>     Thanks a ton.
>                         -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:04:44 -0600*
I agree completely with Brad Sallows:
Compulsory military trg in peacetime, when there is no grave immediate
threat to national security would be rightly hated by Canadian citizens.
Didn‘t work very well for either the Yanks or the Brits. In my very
unprofessional observation but backed by many professionals the US
Army of draftees in the 1950s and 1960s post Korea and pre Vietnan
were poorly trainied lack of time in uniform, very poorly motivated
and this had a serious affect on those who did join as volunteers.
The Brits had "National Service" as conscripts in the same time - a
large army in the declining days of their Empire and  during the NATO
buildup. Over the years I hade talked to dozens of Brits who did their
National Service and subsequently emmigrated to Canada. Most of them
hated their time in the army.
As a Cpl one of the old pre-Hellyer types in the Militia back in
1961-62 I instructed on a couple of the four Special Militia Training
Plan. We took 25,000 unemployed off the streets at a time total across
Canada: 100,000, for 6 weeks perhaps it was 8 and obstensively taught
them "national survival", ie. rescue in case the Bomb should drop. Most
of the trg, of course, was basic trg, about the equivalent of QL2 I
would guess. Few really believed that the national survival trg would
work mobile support columns reentering blasted cities - would have to
be very small bombs. A few were kept on after their short course and
given a quick Jr. NCO leadership course most of those on the Jr Bones
course had prior service: Korea, WW2, Regs. Absolutely NONE of those
not selected for the Jr NCO Course transferred to Militia units and
those I talked to both at the time and others I met later not ones I
had instructed hated the time and came away with no use for the
Canadian Army as a result.
I don‘t know if pseudo army-style boot camps really work in US prisons
but having manditory service in our peacetime CF implies the recipient
comes from some kind of recalcitrant background, and a little square
bashing, Kiwi, Brasso and blanko will straighten ‘em out. Yes, and a
haircut too. Without motivation other than fear it won‘t work, IMHO.
And a very inefficient use of resources from an economic point of view
as well as a military prioritizing equipment/funds as has already been
pointed out.
Bradley Sallows wrote:
> 
> If the aim is to improve image, then mandatory must imply all - no exemptions.
> Once the first exemption is permitted, those who consider themselves special can
> and will lobby for more exemptions.  This will have negative effects on the
> perception of the military - those who avoid service probably disregard the
> military in the first place those who can‘t avoid service will resent not
> having the privilege of exemption and blame the military.
> 
> "National service", in which alternate employment options are available, won‘t
> necessarily help.  I can imagine soldier A, digging holes in the rain in
> Wainwright, might resent civilian B, making beds and cleaning bedpans in a warm,
> dry hospital - and blame the military as the most immediate cause of the
> situation.  Another problem is that unskilled jobs will be removed from the
> employment pool by a succession of "national service" enlistees to the detriment
> of those who must make their living from such work.  Finally, if the number of
> annual enlistees exceeds the pool of jobs in work areas in which the federal
> government has any business poking its fingers, we will be confronted with the
> spectacle of make-work projects at the expense of other spending.
> 
> As much as I enjoy my reserve service, I would not have been pleased at the
> prospect of two of the best years of my life wasted square bashing and digging
> holes after high school graduation.  And that‘s about all I would envision for 1
> or 2 years of service.
> 
> In essence, compulsory service with the aim of nation-building as opposed to a
> genuine omnipresent threat of war is a "stick", and I tend to prefer "carrot"
> approaches.
> 
> Brad Sallows
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:09:19 -0700*
The only way to prove women can thrive and succeed in a combat enviroment,
is to put them in a combat enviroment.  just as it is the only way each man
can be tested.
Our officers and SNCO‘s would soon learn to use them as a resource if push
came to shove, we wouldn‘t leave out trained personnel.  If you are afraid
of your reaction to serving with/under/over women in combat roles, then it
is up to you to rethink your role.  The reality is that they are here to
stay, and will be encouraged even further to achieve more in the Army.  I
fully support the right of anyone, who has earned the right, to get ahead
and succeed in the Army.  That does not mean I agree with the lowering of
standards in order to graduate a set number of women or men candidates.
Lowering the bar just weakens the team and endangers everyone on it.
As for national service, they almost broke up the country doing it during a
war, do you think any chicken hearted politician would have the cajones to
try it in peace time?
while it sounds romantic and patriotic, I don‘t want to have to serve beside
someone who is not  motivated to strive, because they are forced to be
there.  Our army earned its honors andtraditions, primarily through the
efforts of volunteers.  Do you think we could expect the same results with
an army full of bitter conscripts, thinking only of thier discharge dates?
No thank you, give me a small Armyor Navy, Airforce of trained, highly
skilled volunteers, dedicated to serving and improving thier team.  Our
service members are for the most part, career people, and it shows in how
much they can do, with so little.
anyways, enough of this ranting....blah blah blah
Maybe we should just require every politician to be an ex-member of the
services.
VOTE LEW MacKENSIE for PM
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ronald Stuckey" <bakuhatsu68@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 13 Sep 2000 06:31:49 GMT*
As many have mentioned before me, it would undoubtedly be political suicide 
to implement such a program in such a peace loving country particularly 
during a period of peace. In addition to the political woes, I believe that 
it would also contribute to a watering down of an already neglected service. 
I don‘t see the current administration or any future administration making 
any substantial budget increases that would support a conscripted force 
EFFECTIVELY. The last thing that we need is a large force that is largely 
ineffective. I think that we are far better off utilizing the few resources 
that we are given to a maximum effect. Although I would like to see a larger 
and better equipped force in Canada, I think that the only way that it is 
realistically possible is to consolidate our current efforts. I see Canadian 
efforts at peacekeeping as far too watered down. What would be wrong with 
committing all of our peacekeepers to one mission where we can grab a little 
limelight? Why do we bother sending 200 here and 200 there when we could 
send everyone to one place and get a little recognition. Without this 
recognition, we are never truly going to get public support. Australia is a 
good example they have contributed nearly all of their force, which is much 
smaller than Canada‘s, to East Timor and it is hugely popular with the 
Australian people. So popular in fact, they are now supporting huge 
increases to their military budget.
Ron.
>From: "Joan O. Arc" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Manditory service requirement
>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:25:30 GMT
>
>No politician in the world would go for it, I think too unpopular, too
>costly, but I think it‘s not a bad idea.
>
>Would help fight youth unemployment which is still very high in this
>country, would give young people practical and technical skills to
>compliment their academic educations Business people are always going on
>about the need for this - maybe you could get some of them to back a
>campaign to promote this idea! and it would help revive the idea that our
>country to which we owe both service and loyalty - a notion that, in my
>opinion, anyway, is far too rare and that shows up in, among other things,
>our endless whining about a lack of a "national identity".
>
>An interesting question, all around. What made you think of it?
>
>Joan
>
>
>>From: "Rob A." 
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: "army mailing list" 
>>Subject: Manditory service requirement
>>Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 01:18:19 -0400
>>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I have always been interested in our military and lately I have been 
>>trying
>>to put myself into the bosses seat. Asking myself "If I were in charge 
>>no
>>such single person of course and could just wave the proverbial magic
>>wand what changes could I make to promote our military and its‘ members,
>>raise awareness and authenticate the interest of the Canadian public in 
>>our
>>Forces ?"
>>
>>As we are all concerned about our military and its well being, I wanted to
>>pose a question to the group, however outrageous it may be viewed.
>>
>>How do you folks feel about the idea of our government bringing in a
>>mandatory service of some kind? Generally a two year involvement for each
>>and every healthy individual.
>>
>>
>>So what so you think?
>>
>>Looking forward to you responses.
>>Rob A.
>>
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ronald Stuckey" <bakuhatsu68@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 13 Sep 2000 06:58:54 GMT*
Sorry everyone,
I should have introduced myself earlier. I have been monitoring things here 
for some time now and have never bothered to introduce myself. I am a former 
member of 2FER at Fort York in Toronto. I currently reside in Tokyo as an 
English teacher where I meet alot of Australians, British and Americans on a 
regular basis. All of the above mentioned countrymen have incredible pride 
in their own military even though the majority of them have never served. I 
don‘t sense that same pride from Canadians and I have come to the conclusion 
that it is all about notoriety. All of the above mentioned countries are 
militarily and internationally "in the news." If we want to restore faith in 
order to justify further investment in our forces then we have to get in the 
game and grab some of the limelight for ourselves....sad but true.
We have to get off the pot and realize that we are not a world power that 
can effectively contribute forces to such a large number of operations 
around the world. We have to CONSOLIDATE our efforts and contribute to only 
one or two meaningful missions around the world with forces large enough and 
well equipped enough to make a difference and get that international 
limelight. This will not only bring a strong source of pride to the members  
within the forces but it will also bring pride to the average civilian 
Canadian as well.
Ron.
>From: "Joan O. Arc" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Military spending
>Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:14:49 GMT
>
>Hi!
>
>I‘ve searched and searched the web for detailed info. on Canadian military
>spending since, say, the end of WWII and have found nothing.
>
>If anyone could point me to a source of reliable info. on Cdn. military
>spending as a  of GDP, or per capita, or whatever, through time, it would
>be a *huge* help.
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Joan
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob A." <carversbench@csolve.net>* on *Wed, 13 Sep 2000 22:26:25 -0400*
Well, I think we have established that the thought of mandatory service 
would and/or could have some positive effect if implemented properly but 
on the whole would run into so much resistance on a political level that 
it wouldn‘t get out of the gate.
This isn‘t to say that one should dismiss the argument though. I still 
think that if the Canadian government were to develop programs  using 
more dollars and forward thinking while reducing the amount of emotional 
constipation, which inherently weighs down the effective decision making 
of our politicians, we could come up with an effective plan. Maybe 
combining education/training and military enlistment that didn‘t 
concentrate solely on university diplomas could be of great benefit to a 
segment of the population previously looked at as ditch diggers and 
cannon fodder.
I really like the input from Ronald Stuckey about using an ‘all force to 
one mission‘ concept. I‘m not sure how we could back away from our 
current commitments in order to achieve this as we are spread pretty 
thin now. But I can see how a move as all encompassing as this would 
draw a great deal of support and recognition from the Canadian public 
and that, as I see it is our number one problem. We all know when it 
comes down to the question of why our force has so little in funding 
it‘s because there is little public interest.
So Ronald, would you have us take over the Kosovo operation on our own 
or do you think we would have to wait for an operation that required 
very little air force involvement? Air operations seem to be an integral 
part of most missions these days and we all know the current number of 
aircraft Canada has to commit is thin at best.
Regards,
Rob A    
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Well, I think we have established that the 
thought of
mandatory service would and/or could have some positive effect if 
implemented
properly but on the wholewould run into so much resistance on a 
political
level that it wouldn‘t get out of the gate.
This isn‘t to say thatone should dismiss 
the
argument though. I still think that if theCanadiangovernment 
were to
develop programs using more dollars andforward thinking
whilereducing the amount of emotional constipation, which 
inherently
weighs down the effective decision making of our politicians, we could 
come up
with an effective plan. Maybe combining education/training and military
enlistment thatdidn‘t concentrate solely on university diplomas 
could be
of great benefit to a segment of the population previously looked at as 
ditch
diggers and cannon fodder.
I really like the input from RonaldStuckey 
about
using an ‘all force to one mission‘ concept.I‘m not sure how we 
could back
away from our current commitments in order to achieve thisas we 
are spread
pretty thin now. ButI can see how amove as all encompassing 
as this
would draw a great deal of support and recognition from the Canadian 
public and
that, as I see it is our number one problem.We all know when it 
comes down
to the question of why our force has so little in funding it‘s because 
there is
little public interest.
So Ronald, would you haveus take over the 
Kosovo
operation on our own or do you think we would have to wait for an 
operation that
required very little air force involvement?Air operations 
seemto be
an integral part of most missionsthese days and we all know the
currentnumber of aircraft Canada has to commit is thin at
best.
Regards,
Rob
A
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:08:16 -0600*
Rob from Ian Edwards: you may have "established the thought", but quite
a few of us on this bulletin board didn‘t agree that manditory military
service is a good idea/can be implemented properly. It‘s not just the
politicians who are fearful of the concept. You can‘t go on to Square
Two until you‘ve completed Square One.
> "Rob A." wrote: SNIP
> 
> Well, I think we have established that the thought of mandatory
> service would and/or could have some positive effect if implemented
> properly but on the whole would run into so much resistance on a
> political level that it wouldn‘t get out of the gate. SNIP
>
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