# China - India



## Kirkhill (16 Jun 2020)

I don't know if this one has been started yet or if we have to blend the China and India Superthreads

I remember somebody saying something to the effect that the war after the next would be fought with rocks and clubs.

It appears that the Indians and Chinese have decided to skip the bit in between.  How does drone warfare fit into this?



> At least 20 Indian soldiers were killed in a clash with Chinese forces in Ladakh in the disputed Kashmir region, Indian officials say.
> 
> The incident follows rising tensions, and is the first deadly clash in the border area in at least 45 years.
> 
> ...



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53061476


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## Kirkhill (16 Jun 2020)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5NVtni-lDk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsm4MMyp2pI

20 Indians dead including a Lt Colonel - no bullets fired.   

43 Chinese casualties.


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## MilEME09 (16 Jun 2020)

2 to 1 ratio ain't  great but loosing a LCol is a blow, i am surprised shots were not fired


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## CBH99 (16 Jun 2020)

All of this over an area where hardly anybody lives, and nobody that lives there really cares.


Can't the adults just sit down, agree on where the border should be, and move on?  Instead, soldiers are dying over literally nothing because the respective leadership can't just buck up & deal with it for good...   :facepalm:


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## MarkOttawa (16 Jun 2020)

Background:



> Why Are India and China Fighting?
> _Nuclear powers New Delhi and Beijing engage in a skirmish marking the first combat deaths along their border in more than four decades..._
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/16/why-are-india-china-fighting-ladakh-skirmish/



Mark
Ottawa


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## tomahawk6 (16 Jun 2020)

Twenty Indian mountain troops were killed and others wounded. This would be snow covered mountains. Pretty unforgiving in Indian controled Kashmir.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/india-officials-say-20-soldiers-killed-in-china-border-fighting/ar-BB15A5nh?ocid=uxbndlbing


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## Spencer100 (17 Jun 2020)

There's a interesting meme in there somewhere. Two nuclear armed powerS fighting each other with sticks and stones.


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## Spencer100 (17 Jun 2020)

More...I sure this will blow over.  China sent their message. What I mean by that it looks like China is pushing hard everywhere to see how far they get.  

https://www.theusaexpress.com/index.php/2020/06/17/modi-warns-of-befitting-reply-from-india-if-china-tensions-worsen/


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## MarkOttawa (17 Jun 2020)

Start and end of a post:



> China vs India, or, the Himalayan Military Cockpit, Ladakh Section Part 2
> 
> Further to this post, the rumble at 14,000 feet (see here) has just got much worse–a piece at the New Statesman by Prof. Rajesh Rajagopalan (tweets here):
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## OldSolduer (17 Jun 2020)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> There's a interesting meme in there somewhere. Two nuclear armed powerS fighting each other with sticks and stones.



Can we not send Justin to peacekeep?


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## daftandbarmy (17 Jun 2020)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> There's a interesting meme in there somewhere. Two nuclear armed powerS fighting each other with sticks and stones.



When you think about it, despite the atavistic overtones and clearly tragic outcomes, this was an excellent example of restraint in the use of force spectrum, which has likely prevented an even bigger military confrontation. Imagine what might have happened had the two sides kicked off with machine gun fire, mortars and the rest?

I'd love to see their rules of engagement...


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## tomahawk6 (17 Jun 2020)

Update

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53076781

Indian side

https://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis/decoding-china-s-planned-aggression/story-nDFtE8Du5V3rZd0CQdVF9M.html


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Jun 2020)

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/3-separate-brawls-outsider-chinese-troops-more-most-detailed-account-of-the-brutal-june-15-galwan-battle-1691185-2020-06-21?fbclid=IwAR3c7nIAOpporqwsABLHNt__H4OW8tr6KRgfT3cEnvqcFs5MTSGASVQZN00

Three separate brawls divided by time and space. Chinese troops who aren't normally deployed at Patrol Point 14. And, a young Indian Army team that took a decision to cross the Line of Actual Control (LAC) to square things up with the Chinese Army. The contours of the June 15 bloodletting have become cleared.

Plenty has been written so far about the clash between Indian and Chinese troops in Ladakh's Galwan Valley. But contradictory claims, and gaps in the narrative have so far left the story bereft of cohesiveness. Several questions have remained unanswered, with individual aspects lending themselves to speculation and guesswork. Now with a series of conversations with Army personnel in the Galwan Valley, Thangtse and Leh, India Today TV pieces together the most detailed account so far of how things played out.  -more at link-


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## MilEME09 (24 Jun 2020)

India is now saying it's intelligence service believe the most recent deadly encounter that occurred resulting in 20 deaths was ordered by Beijing to happen. Now if they can show to evidence and prove it, that would be an act of war by China.


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## MilEME09 (4 Aug 2021)

A bit of a thread necromancy but better then a new thread. Below is a recent interview with a former Indian Major, now a member of a policy think tank talking about the Chinese- India dynamics


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## Kirkhill (7 Aug 2021)

Why the Quad Alarms China



> the worst-case scenario from Beijing’s perspective is that the Quad could serve as the foundation of a broader global anti-Chinese coalition. If the Quad were to draw other Asian countries, the EU, and NATO into efforts to confront or undermine China’s international ambitions, it could over time swing the collective balance of power definitively against China. The Quad could also lay the groundwork for a broader allied economic, customs, and standards union, which could reshape everything from global infrastructure funding to supply chains to technology standards.











						Why the Quad Alarms China
					

The Quad's success poses a major threat to Beijing’s ambitions.




					www.foreignaffairs.com
				




The Quad

Japan
India
Australia
US

Five Eyes - US, Aus, NZ, UK, Can
Five Powers - Australia, NZ, UK, Malaysia, Singapore
ASEAN - Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Brunei, Cambodia, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Myanmar and Vietnam (UK joins as dialogue partner 5 Aug 2021 - following QE strike group in S China Seas and the permanent deployment of two River Class patrol ships to the area)
CPTPP -Australia, Brunei Darussalam, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam. On 2 June 2021, CPTPP announced that the accession process (for the UK) would begin.

Japan has generally had a soft-spot for the UK seeing a mirror image of itself on the other side of Eurasia.  Islands off the continent.  WW2 was a bit of an aberration in that sense.

India and America - have a love-hate relationship with the UK sharing some British customs, the English language, Common Law and variants of democratic practices.

The biggest fly in the ointment for the Chinese is The Commonwealth.

While the UK was suborned by the EU and ignored, or separated from, the Commonwealth, those countries became the happy hunting grounds for the Chinese - supplying cheap resources.  They were easily bought, corrupted or intimidated.

If the Commonwealth is revived as a Quad entity, together with the Five Eyes, Five Powers, ASEAN, and the CPTPP then China will find itself severely circumscribed.

Coincidentally so will the rest of Eurasia (Russia and the EU).

And George Orwell will be right again - Oceania vs Eurasia.

Countries by region​Africa​
Botswana
Cameroon
Gambia, The
Ghana
Kenya
Kingdom of Eswatini
Lesotho
Malawi
Mauritius
Mozambique
Namibia
Nigeria
Rwanda
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
South Africa
Uganda
United Republic of Tanzania
Zambia
Asia​
Bangladesh
Brunei Darussalam
India
Malaysia
Maldives
Pakistan
Singapore
Sri Lanka
Caribbean and Americas​
Antigua and Barbuda
Bahamas, The
Barbados
Belize
Canada
Dominica
Grenada
Guyana
Jamaica
Saint Lucia
St Kitts and Nevis
St Vincent and The Grenadines
Trinidad and Tobago
Europe​
Cyprus
Malta
United Kingdom
Pacific​
Australia
Fiji
Kiribati
Nauru
New Zealand
Papua New Guinea
Samoa
Solomon Islands
Tonga
Tuvalu
Vanuatu



> PS - *Ultimately, the biggest question may be what all of this means for Xi,*



PPS - When we write The United Kingdom it is often forgotten that that includes not just Scotland, England and Wales on Great Britain and Ulster on Ireland, but also the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands (with their own independent parliaments and tax regimes) and the 14 British Overseas Territories:
The UK Overseas Territories are:​
Anguilla
Bermuda
British Antarctic Territory (BAT) - ASSI has no direct responsibility in relation to BAT as the Antarctic Treaty takes precedence.
British Indian Ocean Territory
British Virgin Islands
Cayman Islands
Falkland Islands
Gibraltar - outside ASSI's remit due to its position within the European Union.
Montserrat
Pitcairn Island, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands
St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha
Sovereign Base Areas (SBA) - ASSI's responsibility in relation to the SBA is limited to the provision of advice to the Administrator.
South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands
Turks and Caicos Islands
Many of them strategic outposts and some well known for their independent tax policies.

They too are members of the Commonwealth.  If they were to be able to vote in the UN with the rest of the Commonwealth, as a block, then that would really put a spanner in the works.


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