# HISTORICAL QUESTION



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Thu, 06 Jul 2000 09:24:13 -0600*
Does anyone know why the following traditions started:
a.  The men eating first?
Comment - I heard from a padre ethics specialist who was lecturing to
us on the ethics of being a young officer that the men ate first because
if there wasn‘t enough food the officers probably had the resources to
get food somewhere else, whereas, the men didn‘t.
b.  The officer being paid first?
Comment - I heard from a padre ethics specialist who was lecturing to
us on the ethics of being a young officer that in the "olden days" when
the paymaster came around with his locked chest of money, he often did
not know the strengths of the units he was going too. Hence, he
frequently ran out of money before everyone was paid.  The unit Officers
would then offer to loan money to the soldiers who had not been paid.
Anyone hear anything different?
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Todd Harris" <harris@nortelnetworks.com>* on *Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:02:25 -0400*
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Gunner,
I too heard the same reasoning for the first question, but I‘m quite curious
as to the second one.  Where do you see that the Officer‘s are paid first?
In any Unit I‘ve been in, Infantry the Officer‘s always got paid last, not
first.  The only Unit I‘ve ever seen do otherwise was an un-named -
Armoured Unit in Gagetown one summer.  We Infantry guys were quite upset
about it at the time.
Todd Harris 
Does anyone know why the following traditions started:
a.  The men eating first?
b.  The officer being paid first?
Comment - I heard from a padre ethics specialist who was lecturing to
us on the ethics of being a young officer that in the "olden days" when
the paymaster came around with his locked chest of money, he often did
not know the strengths of the units he was going too. Hence, he
frequently ran out of money before everyone was paid.  The unit Officers
would then offer to loan money to the soldiers who had not been paid.
Anyone hear anything different?
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RE: HISTORICAL QUESTION
Gunner,
I too heard the same reasoning for the first 
question, but I‘m quite curious as to the second one. Where do 
you see that the Officer‘s are paid first? In any Unit I‘ve been 
in, Infantry the Officer‘s always got paid last, not first. The 
only Unit I‘ve ever seen do otherwise was an un-named - Armoured Unit 
in Gagetown one summer. We Infantry guys were quite upset about 
it at the time.
Todd Harris 
Does anyone know why the following traditions 
started:
a. The men eating first?
b. The officer being paid first?
Comment - I heard from a padre ethics specialist 
who was lecturing to
us on the ethics of being a young officer that in 
the quotolden daysquot when
the paymaster came around with his locked chest of 
money, he often did
not know the strengths of the units he was going 
too. Hence, he
frequently ran out of money before everyone was 
paid. The unit Officers
would then offer to loan money to the soldiers who 
had not been paid.
Anyone hear anything different?
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armyquot in the
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Fri, 07 Jul 2000 09:45:18 -0600*
I don‘t think officers ever get paid first as for the most part there
are not too many pay parades held anymore.  Most everything is done by
cheque or electronically. 
I‘ve never actually seen the officers get paid first during a pay
parade.  However, traditionally, they were apparently paid first.  I
don‘t think it would be carried on in our politically correct times
anyway....we all know officers are bad and screw the troops any chance
they get anyway .... ! 
Anyone else know why officers are suppose to be paid first??
> Todd Harris wrote:
> 
> Gunner,
> 
> I too heard the same reasoning for the first question, but I‘m quite
> curious as to the second one.  Where do you see that the Officer‘s are
> paid first?  In any Unit I‘ve been in, Infantry the Officer‘s always
> got paid last, not first.  The only Unit I‘ve ever seen do otherwise
> was an un-named - Armoured Unit in Gagetown one summer.  We Infantry
> guys were quite upset about it at the time.
> 
> Todd Harris
> 
> Does anyone know why the following traditions started:
> 
> a.  The men eating first?
> 
> b.  The officer being paid first?
> 
> Comment - I heard from a padre ethics specialist who was lecturing
> to
> us on the ethics of being a young officer that in the "olden days"
> when
> the paymaster came around with his locked chest of money, he often did
> 
> not know the strengths of the units he was going too. Hence, he
> frequently ran out of money before everyone was paid.  The unit
> Officers
> would then offer to loan money to the soldiers who had not been paid.
> 
> Anyone hear anything different?
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Fri, 7 Jul 2000 14:08:56 EDT*
I‘m not sure about your questions, but I would think, in my naivety, that 
officers would be paid last, in that a big part of their job is putting their 
soldier‘s needs before their own... Does that make sense to you guys?
                            -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:33:24 -0700*
>I‘m not sure about your questions, but I would think, in my naivety, that
officers would be paid last, in that a big part of their job is putting their
soldier‘s needs before their own... Does that make sense to you guys?
Now that the government is directly the paymaster, and officers are no longer
expected to purchase commissions or use their private funds to the benefit of
the unit, yes.
Brad Sallows
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Fri, 7 Jul 2000 17:13:41 -0700*
RE: HISTORICAL QUESTIONSame here. I spent 13 yrs in the Artillery, and 
the Officers received their pay after the men.
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Todd Harris
  To: ‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘
  Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 8:02 AM
  Subject: RE: HISTORICAL QUESTION
  Gunner,
  I too heard the same reasoning for the first question, but I‘m quite 
curious as to the second one.  Where do you see that the Officer‘s are 
paid first?  In any Unit I‘ve been in, Infantry the Officer‘s always 
got paid last, not first.  The only Unit I‘ve ever seen do otherwise was 
an un-named - Armoured Unit in Gagetown one summer.  We Infantry guys 
were quite upset about it at the time.
  Todd Harris
  Does anyone know why the following traditions started:
  a.  The men eating first?
  b.  The officer being paid first?
  Comment - I heard from a padre ethics specialist who was lecturing 
to
  us on the ethics of being a young officer that in the "olden days" 
when
  the paymaster came around with his locked chest of money, he often did 
  not know the strengths of the units he was going too. Hence, he
  frequently ran out of money before everyone was paid.  The unit 
Officers
  would then offer to loan money to the soldiers who had not been paid.
  Anyone hear anything different?
  --------------------------------------------------------
  NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
  to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
  to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
  message body.
RE: HISTORICAL QUESTION
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Same here. I
spent 13 yrs in the Artillery, and the Officers received their pay after 
the
men.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Todd Harris 
  To: ‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘ 
  Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 
8:02 AM
  Subject: RE: HISTORICAL 
QUESTION

  Gunner, 
  I too heard the same reasoning for the first 
question, but I‘m
  quite curious as to the second one. Where do you see that the 
Officer‘s
  are paid first? In any Unit I‘ve been in, Infantry the 
Officer‘s
  always got paid last, not first. The only Unit I‘ve ever seen do 
  otherwise was an un-named - Armoured Unit in Gagetown one 
summer. We
  Infantry guys were quite upset about it at the time.
  Todd Harris 
  Does anyone know why the following traditions 
started:

  a. The men eating first? 
  b. The officer being paid first? 
  Comment - I heard from a padre ethics specialist 
who was
  lecturing to us on the ethics of being a 
young officer
  that in the "olden days" when the paymaster 
came
  around with his locked chest of money, he often did not know the strengths of the units he was going too. Hence, 
he
  frequently ran out of money before everyone was 
paid.
  The unit Officers would then offer to loan 
money to
  the soldiers who had not been paid. 
  Anyone hear anything different? -------------------------------------------------------- 
  NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send 
a
  message to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from 
the
  account you wish to remove, with the line 
"unsubscribe
  army" in the message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Fri, 07 Jul 2000 20:17:55 -0600*
Circa 1959 and well into the 60s I recall standing in line,
alphabetically quite a process lining us up, for garrison and unit
monthly pay parades in the Militia now P Res. All ranks except
Officers stood in line, except the Garrsion Sgt Major or RSM in
regimental parades. Hundreds of us paid slowly one by one. Approach the
Paymaster, stand to attention and yell out "M814425 Pte. Edwards, I.G."
Paymaster finds name in alphabetical list, doles out bills only slowly.
Bend over, sign on my line, pick up bills with right hand, transfer to
left and resume position of Attention. One pace step back march, and
give the Paymaster the "big five" salute. Smart turn to the left and
march off. Only then did the next in line march up to the table.
Not once did I get screwed by the pay system but watched many others who
had paraded the exact same days come up short or even empty handed. Seem
to recall that if we had any that were NES non effective strength and
just came down in civvies to collect a final payment they were forced to
go to the end of the line, as well they should.
As far as Officers, I can‘t recall when they were paid, however NOW I
would say pay them first as they have more important things to do
hopefully than waiting for all the NCMs to get paid on an RSMs parade.
Doubtless, if I were a Pte/Cpl I would not feel the same. Today I would
say, "what‘s the difference?" as the "higher paid help" weren‘t going
anywhere right away to spend it.
Just glad that my last name is Aaedwards and not Zytlinksky as the line
always went from A to Z with howls of "unfair" by the alphabetically
challenged.
Juno847627709@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I‘m not sure about your questions, but I would think, in my naivety, that
> officers would be paid last, in that a big part of their job is putting their
> soldier‘s needs before their own... Does that make sense to you guys?
>                             -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"S. Brent Warne" <sbw@netidea.com>* on *Fri, 7 Jul 2000 20:47:15 -0700*
Maybe I‘m one of the "OLD" ones left who can still remember CASH pay 
parades on operations.
Every second week in the Middle East was CO‘s parade and immediately 
following the formal parade was pay parade.  Those who were in the 
"buffer zone" were paid upon return at the pay office.
Didn‘t matter what rank except the CO and RSM we all got paid by name. 
 I personally spent a long time waiting - blessed with a name that 
started with W.
Still remember the MP‘s arriving with the ammo boxes  filled with cash.  
-----Original Message-----
From:Ian Edwards [SMTP:iedwards@home.com]
Sent:Friday, July 07, 2000 7:18 PM
To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject:Re: HISTORICAL QUESTION
Circa 1959 and well into the 60s I recall standing in line,
alphabetically quite a process lining us up, for garrison and unit
monthly pay parades in the Militia now P Res. All ranks except
Officers stood in line, except the Garrsion Sgt Major or RSM in
regimental parades. Hundreds of us paid slowly one by one. Approach the
Paymaster, stand to attention and yell out "M814425 Pte. Edwards, I.G."
Paymaster finds name in alphabetical list, doles out bills only slowly.
Bend over, sign on my line, pick up bills with right hand, transfer to
left and resume position of Attention. One pace step back march, and
give the Paymaster the "big five" salute. Smart turn to the left and
march off. Only then did the next in line march up to the table.
Not once did I get screwed by the pay system but watched many others who
had paraded the exact same days come up short or even empty handed. Seem
to recall that if we had any that were NES non effective strength and
just came down in civvies to collect a final payment they were forced to
go to the end of the line, as well they should.
As far as Officers, I can‘t recall when they were paid, however NOW I
would say pay them first as they have more important things to do
hopefully than waiting for all the NCMs to get paid on an RSMs parade.
Doubtless, if I were a Pte/Cpl I would not feel the same. Today I would
say, "what‘s the difference?" as the "higher paid help" weren‘t going
anywhere right away to spend it.
Just glad that my last name is Aaedwards and not Zytlinksky as the line
always went from A to Z with howls of "unfair" by the alphabetically
challenged.
Juno847627709@aol.com wrote:
>
> I‘m not sure about your questions, but I would think, in my naivety, 
that
> officers would be paid last, in that a big part of their job is 
putting their
> soldier‘s needs before their own... Does that make sense to you guys?
>                             -Matt
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Wyn van der Schee <vandersw@cadvision.com>* on *Fri, 7 Jul 2000 22:09:29 -0600*
Ian Edwards is absolutely correct about pay parades. In the old brown shoe
Canadian Army pre-integration,  before new fangled procedures like direct
deposit were in vogue, when everyone was paid in cash, men ate first after
vehicle and equipment maintenance was done but officers were always paid
first. They would then be available to receive any soldiers‘ complaints
about pay. Remember that every soldier carried a pay book in which were
entered his pay and allowance entitlements, with the entries initialled by
the troop/platoon commander or squadron/battery/company 2i/c. It was
expected that a lieutenant knew or would be able to calculate down to the
penny how much each of his men was entitled to every 15th and 30th day of
the month, and would take up any irregularities with the
regimental/battalion paymaster after pay parade was over. To do that he had
to be available once the first OR NCM was paid. It may seem an odd way of
doing things by to-day‘s standards, but it made sense at the time, and I
can‘t think of a better way to judge an old custom. I might add that the
troop/platoon commander was expected to be able to provide information on
demand on his men‘s boot and shirt sizes, marital status, number of
legitimate children, home town and province, and every other bit of
relevant information, all of which was recorded in a troop/platoon book he
carried in an inside pocket of his battle dress tunic.
Wyn van der Schee
>Circa 1959 and well into the 60s I recall standing in line,
>alphabetically quite a process lining us up, for garrison and unit
>monthly pay parades in the Militia now P Res. All ranks except
>Officers stood in line, except the Garrsion Sgt Major or RSM in
>regimental parades. Hundreds of us paid slowly one by one. Approach the
>Paymaster, stand to attention and yell out "M814425 Pte. Edwards, I.G."
>Paymaster finds name in alphabetical list, doles out bills only slowly.
>Bend over, sign on my line, pick up bills with right hand, transfer to
>left and resume position of Attention. One pace step back march, and
>give the Paymaster the "big five" salute. Smart turn to the left and
>march off. Only then did the next in line march up to the table.
>
>Not once did I get screwed by the pay system but watched many others who
>had paraded the exact same days come up short or even empty handed. Seem
>to recall that if we had any that were NES non effective strength and
>just came down in civvies to collect a final payment they were forced to
>go to the end of the line, as well they should.
>
>As far as Officers, I can‘t recall when they were paid, however NOW I
>would say pay them first as they have more important things to do
>hopefully than waiting for all the NCMs to get paid on an RSMs parade.
>Doubtless, if I were a Pte/Cpl I would not feel the same. Today I would
>say, "what‘s the difference?" as the "higher paid help" weren‘t going
>anywhere right away to spend it.
>
>Just glad that my last name is Aaedwards and not Zytlinksky as the line
>always went from A to Z with howls of "unfair" by the alphabetically
>challenged.
>
>Juno847627709@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> I‘m not sure about your questions, but I would think, in my naivety, that
>> officers would be paid last, in that a big part of their job is putting
>>their
>> soldier‘s needs before their own... Does that make sense to you guys?
>>                             -Matt
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:47:17 -0600*
Except that in the Militia Res we didn‘t have pay books. Perhaps we
should have had them then. Remember also that there were no sign-in
sheets, just names called daily at the pl or coy level and transferred
to sheets. In 1970 a friend in Ottawa, Terry Jacobs, was tasked with
"automating" the Reserve pay system. Took his successors almost 30 years
to finally correct the problem for DND.
Thanks for the "boost" Wyn. Guess that makes us even you no longer owe
me a beer.
Wyn van der Schee wrote:
> 
> Ian Edwards is absolutely correct about pay parades. snip
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com>* on *Sat, 08 Jul 2000 17:50:44 PDT*
Correct... what about the current pay system can you call correct.  
Accountability is lacking throughout the system.  I don‘t mind if I don‘t 
get paid as an officer as it is expected of me to be self-sufficient with my 
civy job, but my troops... there is no excuse for not paying my troops 
properly, and often it isn‘t done.
If a private corporation paid it‘s people like DND pays its troops Reg and 
Reserve, they would be in serious trouble.  If McDonalds can manage to pay 
everyone of their employees bi-weekly than why can‘t we.
yes it is a very sore point
Steve
>From: Ian Edwards 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: HISTORICAL QUESTION
>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:47:17 -0600
>
>Except that in the Militia Res we didn‘t have pay books. Perhaps we
>should have had them then. Remember also that there were no sign-in
>sheets, just names called daily at the pl or coy level and transferred
>to sheets. In 1970 a friend in Ottawa, Terry Jacobs, was tasked with
>"automating" the Reserve pay system. Took his successors almost 30 years
>to finally correct the problem for DND.
>
>Thanks for the "boost" Wyn. Guess that makes us even you no longer owe
>me a beer.
>
>Wyn van der Schee wrote:
> >
> > Ian Edwards is absolutely correct about pay parades. snip
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:07:41 -0600*
The Reserves pay is alot better then it was only a short time ago.  For
the vast majority of people, they get paid on time, or can be paid on
contingency.  Steve, however, is right that there is a problem.  I‘ll
give you an example.  
In general, most units will have approx 100 personnel.  In general, the
Class A budget is approx 300,000100 pers x 35 days x $85/day.  In
general, each unit especially if they are away from a major city will
have one pay clerk.  He or she will make approx $35,000/year.  What DND
is doing is in order to meet a $300,000 pay roll, they are paying a
premium of almost 12 per cent simply to pay the soldier.  This is not an
effective system.  Taken another way, it costs $350/soldier simply to
get him paid for nine months Sep - May and the soldier is only making
$2975/year.  
Wait until you see what I can do with the cost of armoury
infrastructure, class B support, reg f cadres, and O  M and see how
cost effective it is - I‘ll save that for another time.
Of course, I‘ve only looked at a very basic examply and excluded Class B
summer administration, etc, etc, however you also have to look at the
larger picture of how much is spent on the pay clerks benefits,
supervision, training costs, equipment use, etc, etc.
The Reserves need an easy system to pay its soldiers and DND has not yet
realized that the system is available with numerous civilian agencies. 
Imagine the money saved if we could get rid of all the Class B RMS Clks
involved in pay?
Steve Kuervers wrote:
> 
> Correct... what about the current pay system can you call correct.
> Accountability is lacking throughout the system.  I don‘t mind if I don‘t
> get paid as an officer as it is expected of me to be self-sufficient with my
> civy job, but my troops... there is no excuse for not paying my troops
> properly, and often it isn‘t done.
> 
> If a private corporation paid it‘s people like DND pays its troops Reg and
> Reserve, they would be in serious trouble.  If McDonalds can manage to pay
> everyone of their employees bi-weekly than why can‘t we.
> 
> yes it is a very sore point
> 
> Steve
> 
> >From: Ian Edwards 
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >Subject: Re: HISTORICAL QUESTION
> >Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 10:47:17 -0600
> >
> >Except that in the Militia Res we didn‘t have pay books. Perhaps we
> >should have had them then. Remember also that there were no sign-in
> >sheets, just names called daily at the pl or coy level and transferred
> >to sheets. In 1970 a friend in Ottawa, Terry Jacobs, was tasked with
> >"automating" the Reserve pay system. Took his successors almost 30 years
> >to finally correct the problem for DND.
> >
> >Thanks for the "boost" Wyn. Guess that makes us even you no longer owe
> >me a beer.
> >
> >Wyn van der Schee wrote:
> > >
> > > Ian Edwards is absolutely correct about pay parades. snip
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Mon, 10 Jul 2000 18:22:00 -0700*
>Wait until you see what I can do with the cost of armoury infrastructure,
class B support, reg f cadres, and O  M and see how cost effective it is - I‘ll
save that for another time.
Well, the bait is in the water.  Fire away.
Brad Sallows
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:59:46 -0600*
Oops, before the Reserve guys and gals start jumping on me for Reserve
bashing, I should have prefaced my remarks that it was not a critique of
the Reserve Force itself, rather, about the system we have created for
ourselves.  We spend a great deal of our money simply administering
ourselves, whereas, it could be better spent "on the armoury floor".  
Lets take our fictional unit of ... say, the 1st Mess Tin Repair Outfit
1 MTRO in Tumbleweed, Saskatchewan.
1 MTRO parades approx 100 personnel, is located in only one city, its
armoury is a turn of the century construction used as a prison at one
time!.  Full time support ranges from an RSSO, a RSS WO, a RSS CClk,
and 2 x Class Bs one RMS Clk/Pay, and a storesmen.
Class A Pay 100 pers x $85/day x 35 days = 297,500 A
Class B Pay summer courses/taskings etc 25 pers x 60 days x $85 
$127,500 B
Note - my assumption is approx 1/4 of the unit does an approx 2 month
call out during the summer.
Total Payroll...................................$425,000 A   B
Infrastructure Requirements
Reg F Sp
RSSO $65,000 C
RSS WO $50,000 D
RSS CClk $45,000 E
Res F Sp
RMS Clk $35,000 F
Storesman $35,000 G
Armoury Maint and Upkeep and Payment in lieu of taxes and caretaker
expenses $50,000 H we can argue up or down
Unit OM 10 of Class A budget = $30,000 I
Total Costs associated with unit administration 
$310,000C D E F G H I
So what I am saying is in order to provide training an employment for
100 Reservists in Tumbleweed Saskatchewan, it takes approx $310K in semi
fixed costs the cost of operating the unit in order to provide pay and
training for $425,000 worth of output ie trained soldiers.  Or to
carry it a step further, for every dollar that is given to a soldier in
the form of pay, it takes almost 73 cents simply to administer him.  Add
on top of this amount the Reserve costs for the Brigade HQ, the Area HQ,
the support base, benefits that members are entitled to, ammunition
costs, its starts to add up.  Where do you think the figure of $1
Billion spent on the Reserves comes from voodoo economics of
course!?    
I guess my question harkens back to my other email and that is this the
right balance?   There are a couple of ways we can go with this. 
Decrease the amount of overhead that exists in terms of NDHQ, LFAs,
CBGs, etc or increase the amount of money being spent at the Armoury
floor that will justify how much is being spent on the system.
I throw it open to any comments.
Bradley Sallows wrote:
> 
> >Wait until you see what I can do with the cost of armoury infrastructure,
> class B support, reg f cadres, and O  M and see how cost effective it is - I‘ll
> save that for another time.
> 
> Well, the bait is in the water.  Fire away.
> 
> Brad Sallows
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Robert Childs" <adanac1@home.com>* on *Tue, 11 Jul 2000 07:05:12 -0400*
 Here you go again with all these  short forms RSSO, RSS, WO, RSS CClk
Class 2 and ClassB
What on earth is a Class 2 and a Class B soldier?
This enought to make an old soldier‘s head spin witn confussion.
BTW I think I passed threw Tumbleweed Sask once Big Grin
Robert Childs Airborne Rigger Ret.
> Lets take our fictional unit of ... say, the 1st Mess Tin Repair Outfit
> 1 MTRO in Tumbleweed, Saskatchewan.
> 1 MTRO parades approx 100 personnel, is located in only one city, its
> armoury is a turn of the century construction used as a prison at one
> time!.  Full time support ranges from an RSSO, a RSS WO, a RSS CClk,
> and 2 x Class Bs one RMS Clk/Pay, and a storesmen.
>
> Class A Pay 100 pers x $85/day x 35 days = 297,500 A
> Class B Pay summer courses/taskings etc 25 pers x 60 days x $85 
> $127,500 B
> Note - my assumption is approx 1/4 of the unit does an approx 2 month
> call out during the summer.
> Total Payroll...................................$425,000 A   B
>
> Infrastructure Requirements
>
> Reg F Sp
> RSSO $65,000 C
> RSS WO $50,000 D
> RSS CClk $45,000 E
>
> Res F Sp
> RMS Clk $35,000 F
> Storesman $35,000 G
>
> Armoury Maint and Upkeep and Payment in lieu of taxes and caretaker
> expenses $50,000 H we can argue up or down
>
> Unit OM 10 of Class A budget = $30,000 I
>
> Total Costs associated with unit administration 
> $310,000C D E F G H I
>
> So what I am saying is in order to provide training an employment for
> 100 Reservists in Tumbleweed Saskatchewan, it takes approx $310K in semi
> fixed costs the cost of operating the unit in order to provide pay and
> training for $425,000 worth of output ie trained soldiers.  Or to
> carry it a step further, for every dollar that is given to a soldier in
> the form of pay, it takes almost 73 cents simply to administer him.  Add
> on top of this amount the Reserve costs for the Brigade HQ, the Area HQ,
> the support base, benefits that members are entitled to, ammunition
> costs, its starts to add up.  Where do you think the figure of $1
> Billion spent on the Reserves comes from voodoo economics of
> course!?
>
> I guess my question harkens back to my other email and that is this the
> right balance?   There are a couple of ways we can go with this.
> Decrease the amount of overhead that exists in terms of NDHQ, LFAs,
> CBGs, etc or increase the amount of money being spent at the Armoury
> floor that will justify how much is being spent on the system.
>
> I throw it open to any comments.
>
>
> Bradley Sallows wrote:
> >
> > >Wait until you see what I can do with the cost of armoury
infrastructure,
> > class B support, reg f cadres, and O  M and see how cost effective it
is - I‘ll
> > save that for another time.
> >
> > Well, the bait is in the water.  Fire away.
> >
> > Brad Sallows
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:35:24 -0600*
Robert,
RSSO - Regular Support Staff Officer - a Reg F officer who is posted
into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions as the Adjutant or Operations
Officer.
RSS WO - Regular Support Staff Warrant Officer - A Reg F Warrant Officer
who is posted into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions as the Training
Warrant Officer.
RSS CClk - Regular Support Staff Chief Clerk - A Reg F Sergeant
administration who is posted into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions
as the unit‘s Chief Clerk.
Class "A" - Is service by a Reservists on a day basis.  For example, a
private working over a weekend on course would be entitled to two days
of Class "A" pay.
Class "B" - Merely indicates a soldier who is on a fixed contract.  For
example, a private taking his basic training over the summer at Land
Force Western Area Training Centre in Wainwright would be on a Class
"B" call out for approx six weeks.  Extended call outs on Class "B" also
entitle the Reservist to similar benefits to the Regular Force.
There is no Class 2.  It was simply indicating that there are were two
soldiers on extended class "B" working at the 1 MTRO.
Cheers!
Robert Childs wrote:
> 
>  Here you go again with all these  short forms RSSO, RSS, WO, RSS CClk
> Class 2 and ClassB
> What on earth is a Class 2 and a Class B soldier?
> This enought to make an old soldier‘s head spin witn confussion.
> BTW I think I passed threw Tumbleweed Sask once Big Grin
> 
> Robert Childs Airborne Rigger Ret.
> 
> > Lets take our fictional unit of ... say, the 1st Mess Tin Repair Outfit
> > 1 MTRO in Tumbleweed, Saskatchewan.
> > 1 MTRO parades approx 100 personnel, is located in only one city, its
> > armoury is a turn of the century construction used as a prison at one
> > time!.  Full time support ranges from an RSSO, a RSS WO, a RSS CClk,
> > and 2 x Class Bs one RMS Clk/Pay, and a storesmen.
> >
> > Class A Pay 100 pers x $85/day x 35 days = 297,500 A
> > Class B Pay summer courses/taskings etc 25 pers x 60 days x $85 
> > $127,500 B
> > Note - my assumption is approx 1/4 of the unit does an approx 2 month
> > call out during the summer.
> > Total Payroll...................................$425,000 A   B
> >
> > Infrastructure Requirements
> >
> > Reg F Sp
> > RSSO $65,000 C
> > RSS WO $50,000 D
> > RSS CClk $45,000 E
> >
> > Res F Sp
> > RMS Clk $35,000 F
> > Storesman $35,000 G
> >
> > Armoury Maint and Upkeep and Payment in lieu of taxes and caretaker
> > expenses $50,000 H we can argue up or down
> >
> > Unit OM 10 of Class A budget = $30,000 I
> >
> > Total Costs associated with unit administration 
> > $310,000C D E F G H I
> >
> > So what I am saying is in order to provide training an employment for
> > 100 Reservists in Tumbleweed Saskatchewan, it takes approx $310K in semi
> > fixed costs the cost of operating the unit in order to provide pay and
> > training for $425,000 worth of output ie trained soldiers.  Or to
> > carry it a step further, for every dollar that is given to a soldier in
> > the form of pay, it takes almost 73 cents simply to administer him.  Add
> > on top of this amount the Reserve costs for the Brigade HQ, the Area HQ,
> > the support base, benefits that members are entitled to, ammunition
> > costs, its starts to add up.  Where do you think the figure of $1
> > Billion spent on the Reserves comes from voodoo economics of
> > course!?
> >
> > I guess my question harkens back to my other email and that is this the
> > right balance?   There are a couple of ways we can go with this.
> > Decrease the amount of overhead that exists in terms of NDHQ, LFAs,
> > CBGs, etc or increase the amount of money being spent at the Armoury
> > floor that will justify how much is being spent on the system.
> >
> > I throw it open to any comments.
> >
> >
> > Bradley Sallows wrote:
> > >
> > > >Wait until you see what I can do with the cost of armoury
> infrastructure,
> > > class B support, reg f cadres, and O  M and see how cost effective it
> is - I‘ll
> > > save that for another time.
> > >
> > > Well, the bait is in the water.  Fire away.
> > >
> > > Brad Sallows
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net>* on *Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:29:19 -0600*
--------------84FE2FB2D0A34172FC204B69
I believe there was also or still is Class C? A longer term class B?
Francois
Gunner wrote:
> Robert,
>
> RSSO - Regular Support Staff Officer - a Reg F officer who is posted
> into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions as the Adjutant or Operations
> Officer.
>
> RSS WO - Regular Support Staff Warrant Officer - A Reg F Warrant Officer
> who is posted into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions as the Training
> Warrant Officer.
>
> RSS CClk - Regular Support Staff Chief Clerk - A Reg F Sergeant
> administration who is posted into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions
> as the unit‘s Chief Clerk.
>
> Class "A" - Is service by a Reservists on a day basis.  For example, a
> private working over a weekend on course would be entitled to two days
> of Class "A" pay.
>
> Class "B" - Merely indicates a soldier who is on a fixed contract.  For
> example, a private taking his basic training over the summer at Land
> Force Western Area Training Centre in Wainwright would be on a Class
> "B" call out for approx six weeks.  Extended call outs on Class "B" also
> entitle the Reservist to similar benefits to the Regular Force.
>
> There is no Class 2.  It was simply indicating that there are were two
> soldiers on extended class "B" working at the 1 MTRO.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Robert Childs wrote:
> >
> >  Here you go again with all these  short forms RSSO, RSS, WO, RSS CClk
> > Class 2 and ClassB
> > What on earth is a Class 2 and a Class B soldier?
> > This enought to make an old soldier‘s head spin witn confussion.
> > BTW I think I passed threw Tumbleweed Sask once Big Grin
> >
> > Robert Childs Airborne Rigger Ret.
> >
> > > Lets take our fictional unit of ... say, the 1st Mess Tin Repair Outfit
> > > 1 MTRO in Tumbleweed, Saskatchewan.
> > > 1 MTRO parades approx 100 personnel, is located in only one city, its
> > > armoury is a turn of the century construction used as a prison at one
> > > time!.  Full time support ranges from an RSSO, a RSS WO, a RSS CClk,
> > > and 2 x Class Bs one RMS Clk/Pay, and a storesmen.
> > >
> > > Class A Pay 100 pers x $85/day x 35 days = 297,500 A
> > > Class B Pay summer courses/taskings etc 25 pers x 60 days x $85 
> > > $127,500 B
> > > Note - my assumption is approx 1/4 of the unit does an approx 2 month
> > > call out during the summer.
> > > Total Payroll...................................$425,000 A   B
> > >
> > > Infrastructure Requirements
> > >
> > > Reg F Sp
> > > RSSO $65,000 C
> > > RSS WO $50,000 D
> > > RSS CClk $45,000 E
> > >
> > > Res F Sp
> > > RMS Clk $35,000 F
> > > Storesman $35,000 G
> > >
> > > Armoury Maint and Upkeep and Payment in lieu of taxes and caretaker
> > > expenses $50,000 H we can argue up or down
> > >
> > > Unit OM 10 of Class A budget = $30,000 I
> > >
> > > Total Costs associated with unit administration 
> > > $310,000C D E F G H I
> > >
> > > So what I am saying is in order to provide training an employment for
> > > 100 Reservists in Tumbleweed Saskatchewan, it takes approx $310K in semi
> > > fixed costs the cost of operating the unit in order to provide pay and
> > > training for $425,000 worth of output ie trained soldiers.  Or to
> > > carry it a step further, for every dollar that is given to a soldier in
> > > the form of pay, it takes almost 73 cents simply to administer him.  Add
> > > on top of this amount the Reserve costs for the Brigade HQ, the Area HQ,
> > > the support base, benefits that members are entitled to, ammunition
> > > costs, its starts to add up.  Where do you think the figure of $1
> > > Billion spent on the Reserves comes from voodoo economics of
> > > course!?
> > >
> > > I guess my question harkens back to my other email and that is this the
> > > right balance?   There are a couple of ways we can go with this.
> > > Decrease the amount of overhead that exists in terms of NDHQ, LFAs,
> > > CBGs, etc or increase the amount of money being spent at the Armoury
> > > floor that will justify how much is being spent on the system.
> > >
> > > I throw it open to any comments.
> > >
> > >
> > > Bradley Sallows wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Wait until you see what I can do with the cost of armoury
> > infrastructure,
> > > > class B support, reg f cadres, and O  M and see how cost effective it
> > is - I‘ll
> > > > save that for another time.
> > > >
> > > > Well, the bait is in the water.  Fire away.
> > > >
> > > > Brad Sallows
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------84FE2FB2D0A34172FC204B69
 name="zzzzzzz.vcf"
 filename="zzzzzzz.vcf"
begin:vcard 
n:ArseneaultFrancois 
telwork:403 282-6100
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://www.avscanada.com/
org:AVS IncCorporate  Broadcast Video Production since 1987
version:2.1
emailinternet:zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net
title:Francois Arseneault - camera/editor
adrquoted-printable:Military, Motorsports and extreme environment specialists=3B =0D=0ADPS Velocity Edit suite=3B =0D=0ABeta SP camera=3B =0D=0AUnderwater unitCalgaryAlbertaCanada
x-mozilla-cpt:-12336
fn:www.avscanada.com
end:vcard
--------------84FE2FB2D0A34172FC204B69--
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Tue, 11 Jul 2000 08:57:24 -0600*
True Francois,
Two other terms a service a reservist might find him/herself under are:
Class B "A" Annotated - basically this is a recurring position that is
funded year to year.  Most often held by Class B "Bums"!
Class C - same pay and benefits as the Regular Force.  Usually used only
during operations ie Bosnia.  However, for some reason, CFRC pays
reservists on Class C.
"F. A." wrote:
> 
> I believe there was also or still is Class C? A longer term class B?
> 
> Francois
> 
> Gunner wrote:
> 
> > Robert,
> >
> > RSSO - Regular Support Staff Officer - a Reg F officer who is posted
> > into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions as the Adjutant or Operations
> > Officer.
> >
> > RSS WO - Regular Support Staff Warrant Officer - A Reg F Warrant Officer
> > who is posted into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions as the Training
> > Warrant Officer.
> >
> > RSS CClk - Regular Support Staff Chief Clerk - A Reg F Sergeant
> > administration who is posted into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions
> > as the unit‘s Chief Clerk.
> >
> > Class "A" - Is service by a Reservists on a day basis.  For example, a
> > private working over a weekend on course would be entitled to two days
> > of Class "A" pay.
> >
> > Class "B" - Merely indicates a soldier who is on a fixed contract.  For
> > example, a private taking his basic training over the summer at Land
> > Force Western Area Training Centre in Wainwright would be on a Class
> > "B" call out for approx six weeks.  Extended call outs on Class "B" also
> > entitle the Reservist to similar benefits to the Regular Force.
> >
> > There is no Class 2.  It was simply indicating that there are were two
> > soldiers on extended class "B" working at the 1 MTRO.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Robert Childs wrote:
> > >
> > >  Here you go again with all these  short forms RSSO, RSS, WO, RSS CClk
> > > Class 2 and ClassB
> > > What on earth is a Class 2 and a Class B soldier?
> > > This enought to make an old soldier‘s head spin witn confussion.
> > > BTW I think I passed threw Tumbleweed Sask once Big Grin
> > >
> > > Robert Childs Airborne Rigger Ret.
> > >
> > > > Lets take our fictional unit of ... say, the 1st Mess Tin Repair Outfit
> > > > 1 MTRO in Tumbleweed, Saskatchewan.
> > > > 1 MTRO parades approx 100 personnel, is located in only one city, its
> > > > armoury is a turn of the century construction used as a prison at one
> > > > time!.  Full time support ranges from an RSSO, a RSS WO, a RSS CClk,
> > > > and 2 x Class Bs one RMS Clk/Pay, and a storesmen.
> > > >
> > > > Class A Pay 100 pers x $85/day x 35 days = 297,500 A
> > > > Class B Pay summer courses/taskings etc 25 pers x 60 days x $85 
> > > > $127,500 B
> > > > Note - my assumption is approx 1/4 of the unit does an approx 2 month
> > > > call out during the summer.
> > > > Total Payroll...................................$425,000 A   B
> > > >
> > > > Infrastructure Requirements
> > > >
> > > > Reg F Sp
> > > > RSSO $65,000 C
> > > > RSS WO $50,000 D
> > > > RSS CClk $45,000 E
> > > >
> > > > Res F Sp
> > > > RMS Clk $35,000 F
> > > > Storesman $35,000 G
> > > >
> > > > Armoury Maint and Upkeep and Payment in lieu of taxes and caretaker
> > > > expenses $50,000 H we can argue up or down
> > > >
> > > > Unit OM 10 of Class A budget = $30,000 I
> > > >
> > > > Total Costs associated with unit administration 
> > > > $310,000C D E F G H I
> > > >
> > > > So what I am saying is in order to provide training an employment for
> > > > 100 Reservists in Tumbleweed Saskatchewan, it takes approx $310K in semi
> > > > fixed costs the cost of operating the unit in order to provide pay and
> > > > training for $425,000 worth of output ie trained soldiers.  Or to
> > > > carry it a step further, for every dollar that is given to a soldier in
> > > > the form of pay, it takes almost 73 cents simply to administer him.  Add
> > > > on top of this amount the Reserve costs for the Brigade HQ, the Area HQ,
> > > > the support base, benefits that members are entitled to, ammunition
> > > > costs, its starts to add up.  Where do you think the figure of $1
> > > > Billion spent on the Reserves comes from voodoo economics of
> > > > course!?
> > > >
> > > > I guess my question harkens back to my other email and that is this the
> > > > right balance?   There are a couple of ways we can go with this.
> > > > Decrease the amount of overhead that exists in terms of NDHQ, LFAs,
> > > > CBGs, etc or increase the amount of money being spent at the Armoury
> > > > floor that will justify how much is being spent on the system.
> > > >
> > > > I throw it open to any comments.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bradley Sallows wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Wait until you see what I can do with the cost of armoury
> > > infrastructure,
> > > > > class B support, reg f cadres, and O  M and see how cost effective it
> > > is - I‘ll
> > > > > save that for another time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, the bait is in the water.  Fire away.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brad Sallows
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John A. Poh" <johnpoh@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Tue, 11 Jul 2000 14:33:32 -0500*
Class "C" is Reservist on full time duty filling a Regular Force position at Regular
Force rate of pay. If on CFSA from Regular Force duty, continued to draw CFSA for up
to one year of Class "C". If Class "C" went beyond one year then CFSA benefits
stopped and member was deemed to be re-enrolled in Regular Force for pension
purposes and started paying monthly CFSA amount for rank.. This may have changed
somewhat in the last few years but was certainly the case up until July 1991.
I retired Regular Force in December 1980 with just over 26 years services. Did 44
months Class "C" in Shilo from Aug 86 - end Jul 91 - as a result, pension was more
than doubled !
John
Gunner wrote:
> True Francois,
>
> Two other terms a service a reservist might find him/herself under are:
>
> Class B "A" Annotated - basically this is a recurring position that is
> funded year to year.  Most often held by Class B "Bums"!
>
> Class C - same pay and benefits as the Regular Force.  Usually used only
> during operations ie Bosnia.  However, for some reason, CFRC pays
> reservists on Class C.
>
> "F. A." wrote:
> >
> > I believe there was also or still is Class C? A longer term class B?
> >
> > Francois
> >
> > Gunner wrote:
> >
> > > Robert,
> > >
> > > RSSO - Regular Support Staff Officer - a Reg F officer who is posted
> > > into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions as the Adjutant or Operations
> > > Officer.
> > >
> > > RSS WO - Regular Support Staff Warrant Officer - A Reg F Warrant Officer
> > > who is posted into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions as the Training
> > > Warrant Officer.
> > >
> > > RSS CClk - Regular Support Staff Chief Clerk - A Reg F Sergeant
> > > administration who is posted into a Reserve unit.  Usually functions
> > > as the unit‘s Chief Clerk.
> > >
> > > Class "A" - Is service by a Reservists on a day basis.  For example, a
> > > private working over a weekend on course would be entitled to two days
> > > of Class "A" pay.
> > >
> > > Class "B" - Merely indicates a soldier who is on a fixed contract.  For
> > > example, a private taking his basic training over the summer at Land
> > > Force Western Area Training Centre in Wainwright would be on a Class
> > > "B" call out for approx six weeks.  Extended call outs on Class "B" also
> > > entitle the Reservist to similar benefits to the Regular Force.
> > >
> > > There is no Class 2.  It was simply indicating that there are were two
> > > soldiers on extended class "B" working at the 1 MTRO.
> > >
> > > Cheers!
> > >
> > > Robert Childs wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  Here you go again with all these  short forms RSSO, RSS, WO, RSS CClk
> > > > Class 2 and ClassB
> > > > What on earth is a Class 2 and a Class B soldier?
> > > > This enought to make an old soldier‘s head spin witn confussion.
> > > > BTW I think I passed threw Tumbleweed Sask once Big Grin
> > > >
> > > > Robert Childs Airborne Rigger Ret.
> > > >
> > > > > Lets take our fictional unit of ... say, the 1st Mess Tin Repair Outfit
> > > > > 1 MTRO in Tumbleweed, Saskatchewan.
> > > > > 1 MTRO parades approx 100 personnel, is located in only one city, its
> > > > > armoury is a turn of the century construction used as a prison at one
> > > > > time!.  Full time support ranges from an RSSO, a RSS WO, a RSS CClk,
> > > > > and 2 x Class Bs one RMS Clk/Pay, and a storesmen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Class A Pay 100 pers x $85/day x 35 days = 297,500 A
> > > > > Class B Pay summer courses/taskings etc 25 pers x 60 days x $85 
> > > > > $127,500 B
> > > > > Note - my assumption is approx 1/4 of the unit does an approx 2 month
> > > > > call out during the summer.
> > > > > Total Payroll...................................$425,000 A   B
> > > > >
> > > > > Infrastructure Requirements
> > > > >
> > > > > Reg F Sp
> > > > > RSSO $65,000 C
> > > > > RSS WO $50,000 D
> > > > > RSS CClk $45,000 E
> > > > >
> > > > > Res F Sp
> > > > > RMS Clk $35,000 F
> > > > > Storesman $35,000 G
> > > > >
> > > > > Armoury Maint and Upkeep and Payment in lieu of taxes and caretaker
> > > > > expenses $50,000 H we can argue up or down
> > > > >
> > > > > Unit OM 10 of Class A budget = $30,000 I
> > > > >
> > > > > Total Costs associated with unit administration 
> > > > > $310,000C D E F G H I
> > > > >
> > > > > So what I am saying is in order to provide training an employment for
> > > > > 100 Reservists in Tumbleweed Saskatchewan, it takes approx $310K in semi
> > > > > fixed costs the cost of operating the unit in order to provide pay and
> > > > > training for $425,000 worth of output ie trained soldiers.  Or to
> > > > > carry it a step further, for every dollar that is given to a soldier in
> > > > > the form of pay, it takes almost 73 cents simply to administer him.  Add
> > > > > on top of this amount the Reserve costs for the Brigade HQ, the Area HQ,
> > > > > the support base, benefits that members are entitled to, ammunition
> > > > > costs, its starts to add up.  Where do you think the figure of $1
> > > > > Billion spent on the Reserves comes from voodoo economics of
> > > > > course!?
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess my question harkens back to my other email and that is this the
> > > > > right balance?   There are a couple of ways we can go with this.
> > > > > Decrease the amount of overhead that exists in terms of NDHQ, LFAs,
> > > > > CBGs, etc or increase the amount of money being spent at the Armoury
> > > > > floor that will justify how much is being spent on the system.
> > > > >
> > > > > I throw it open to any comments.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bradley Sallows wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Wait until you see what I can do with the cost of armoury
> > > > infrastructure,
> > > > > > class B support, reg f cadres, and O  M and see how cost effective it
> > > > is - I‘ll
> > > > > > save that for another time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, the bait is in the water.  Fire away.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brad Sallows
> > > > > >
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Robert Childs" <adanac1@home.com>* on *Tue, 11 Jul 2000 19:52:23 -0400*
 Thanks Gunner,
 F.A, and
 John A
 for your responce Its nice to be kept up to date .
Robert BS.MS.PHD.  
Bull**** More**** Piled Higher and Deeper
 Once Airborne Always Airborne
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