# Rifle Drill Peeve



## medic65726 (28 Feb 2007)

OK, first seeing as I've been out of cadets for over 10 years now, but this issue has been bothering me for a while.
Frequently I've seen cadets (all elements) on TV parading carrying Lee-Enfields whcih I think can look great.
But, often I see the Lee-Enfield carried in the right hand at a "Shoulder Arms" position which is completely innapropriate for this rifle, and, having tried it, quite uncomfortable and tiring as it doesn't and shouldn't have a pistol grip (have seen them modified to have one, for some unknown reason as it is quite unnecessary).
As Cadet organizations have become the keepers of many traditions that have since left the forces, such as keeping the rank structures of the old RCAF and RCN etc. can we not try to maintain the old rifle drill that was done from centuries ago until the adoption of the FNC1 in the late 50's I believe.
The Lee Enfield should be carried, on the march, at the "Slope arms" postion, at a 45 degree angle over the left shoulder. A salute on the march is just done with the right hand instead of the left, with the hand brought across the small of the butt, and to "order arms" drop the left forearm from parallell to the ground to perpendicular, therby dropping the butt down, reach across with the right arm to grasp the forestock and bring the rifle across the body and to the ground on the right.
Sorry, end of my rant, but I needed to get this sissue of my chest.
If you want more on rifle drill with the Lee-Enfield, just ask, or go ask one of the Vets at your local Legion/ANAFVETs etc, I'm sure some of them would love to help, and might have some great stories to tell you as well.


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## medaid (28 Feb 2007)

As per the Royal Canadian Sea Cadet Manual of Drill and Ceremonial A-CR-CCP-053/PT001,  Chapter 2:Lee-Enfield Rifle Drill, Section 2: Drill for Use on Board Ship, Subsection 223: Shoulder Arms from the Order http://www.cadets.dnd.ca/_docs/sea-marine/scdm/Chap2-2.pdf (Yes I know that's not the proper referencing... I'm too tired right now)

"The following movements are designed
specifically to be performed on board ship, as they
are more easily executed in confined spaces." SS.222(1)

  So you see, the shoulder arms movement is in the drill manual of the Sea Cadets, and since the Sea Cadets are the ONLY element that parade regularly with rifles and have ANY sort of formed parades (entirely under arms by the way, not just one platoon here or one company there under arms, which is different then a Grad parade at say Vernon CSTC), and thus I would say the Sea Cadets Manual of Drill and Ceremonial is the 'Gospel' in this matter. 

   Yes... blah blah blah Sea Cadets are the navy and blah blah blah Army Cadets know more about rifle drill, BLAH BLAH BLAH. Since the Sea Cadets actually went to the trouble of creating a drill and ceremonial manual which includes the Lee-Enfield Rifle Drill, I would say that they are the leaders in this regard and all who have questions should read their manual. 


CAUTION: that manual obviously does not replace the CFP 201 that all service personnel adheres to. Just in case... you know someone will ask  :


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## medic65726 (28 Feb 2007)

Thanks for that great reference. However, Chapter 1, Section 2, "Drill for use on board ship" comes right after Section 1, "Basic Rifle Drill" which talks about carrying at he slope arms position. And as ALL the parades I've seen Cadets in have been on Land, and not on board ship, it still seems a tad innapropriate.


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## Sloaner (28 Feb 2007)

While the Sea Cadets have a manual for the Lee Enfield drill, do not think they are the only ones.  CATO 54-04 designates the Lee Enfield Drill in the Air cadet system and copies of the 1952 Drill pam for the Lee Enfield were distributed to army cadet units (at least in Central Region) a couple of years ago as their official reference.  For competition purposes all are relevant.  There are some minor differences between each of the manuals however, which may be causing some of the confusion by various units.  Shoulder Arms is a perfectly viable position for the carrying of arms whether on-board ship or not.  It is used by many units who do not have extensive experience or training time for their rifle bearers in flag parties due to the ease of the motion.  The majority of units I have worked with continue to carry the rifle at slope arms.  I cannot speak to the practices at the CSTC's though.  In some cases, the carry arms is used as a method of emulating the current practices of the CF as described in the 201 and demonstrated by many affiliated units (army side of course).

As for the statement that Sea cadets are the ONLY element that parade regularly with rifles or have ANY sort of formed parades, I would submit that this is largely mis-informed.  Every cadet unit has the option of doing so (unless prohibitted by Regional orders) and most units who have Drill Purpose Rifles will use them on a regular basis.  As for the GOSPEL, on the drill it depends on the individual elements.  For competition purposes all of the references are viable, and for daily use the same applies.

While I realize there are alot of ex-cadets on the boards, please lets stay in out lanes here folks.


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## medaid (28 Feb 2007)

Sloaner said:
			
		

> As for the statement that Sea cadets are the ONLY element that parade regularly with rifles or have ANY sort of formed parades, I would submit that this is largely mis-informed.  Every cadet unit has the option of doing so (unless prohibitted by Regional orders) and most units who have Drill Purpose Rifles will use them on a regular basis.  As for the GOSPEL, on the drill it depends on the individual elements.  For competition purposes all of the references are viable, and for daily use the same applies.



What I meant about that is I have only seen Sea Cadets parade regularly en masse on parade under arms, while any of the army units and air cadet units do not. At least here in PAC region, the ones who own the majority of DP Lee-Enfields are the Sea Cadets. They are also the ones who do large parades at say, Victoria, where there's a Sea (excuse the pun) of Sea Cadets with rifles sloped, bayonets fixed, cutlass carried on parade en-masse with their field gun. I havent seen that with any other elements. That is why I said that they are the only element that parades regularly with rifles and have formed parades en-masse with them.

I dont know about any other regions, but here in Pac, Air Cadets are NOT allowed to be on parade en-masse under arms, let alone the bayonet fixing. The only section within a Squadron who is allowed to be under arms, by the CO's discretion is the Flag Party. I also agree that unit with DP will use them on a regular basis, but many Army Cadet units' DP rifles numbers less then the Sea Cadet units. I just call it as I see it. Thanks for point the other drill sections out though. I wish I knew that the CATO had a section for Air Cadet Lee En-Field drill when I was a Flag Party Comd, would've saved me allot of trouble referencing the Sea Cadet Maunal for D&C.


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## Sloaner (28 Feb 2007)

Seen.  There seems to be some difference Region to Region which will hopefully be sorted out during the program update.


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## Bergeron 971 (28 Feb 2007)

I hope so aswell Sloaner. I would LOVE for my CC to par take in the "Army cadet Challange" from central region we're like 20 minute run from the closest Central region CC in ottawa but we do things like, curling, kin ball and darts for cadet comps in our region.
And there are no armed drill comps.
I would like to have Pace Stick comps like they do in the CF.


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## stealthylizard (6 Mar 2007)

It is a shame that the cadet movement got rid of the FN's.  I thouroughly enjoyed using them.  Why did they get rid of them anyways?


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## qjdb (6 Mar 2007)

Just a guess here, take it as you will

They basically phased them out when the Regular and Reserves made the switch to the C7 Rifle / C8 Carbine, as it didn't make sense to the upper-ups to have the cadets firing a 7.62 rifle when the big boys were using a 5.56 rifle, so they decided to switch the cadets to a (commonly available) .22 firing rifle.

Does that seem to make sense to anyone else out there?


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## Lerch (6 Mar 2007)

Aside from that, with modern times, youth carrying assault rifles doesn't sit too well with the public.


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## Trinity (6 Mar 2007)

qjdb said:
			
		

> Just a guess here, take it as you will
> 
> They basically phased them out when the Regular and Reserves made the switch to the C7 Rifle / C8 Carbine, as it didn't make sense to the upper-ups to have the cadets firing a 7.62 rifle when the big boys were using a 5.56 rifle, so they decided to switch the cadets to a (commonly available) .22 firing rifle.



I know you said.. take it as you will.  It's a "great story" but it sounds like one of those rumors everyone says cause it sounds cool.



> Aside from that, with modern times, youth carrying assault rifles doesn't sit too well with the public.



That sounds a lot closer to the truth.


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## stealthylizard (6 Mar 2007)

> Aside from that, with modern times, youth carrying assault rifles doesn't sit too well with the public.



That is pretty much what I remember it being.  If my memory serves me, the FN's were scrapped after mandatory long gun registration was introduced.  I just wasn't sure if there was a reason beyond politics, and public image.


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## x-grunt (6 Mar 2007)

Medic65726 said:
			
		

> But, often I see the Lee-Enfield carried in the right hand at a "Shoulder Arms" position which is completely innapropriate for this rifle, and, having tried it, quite uncomfortable and tiring as it doesn't and shouldn't have a pistol grip (have seen them modified to have one, for some unknown reason as it is quite unnecessary).



Just as a little cadet history...when I was in Sea Cadets back in the 70's, the slope arms movement didn't exist in any cadet formation. We paraded the Lee-Enfield at the shoulder exclusively, and the slope was in no manual of drill that was current then. I served for six years and travelled a lot with cadets, coast to coast and overseas. I only saw the slope arms once, taught as a movement to cadets serving in HMCS Haida to keep the drill historically accurate. (For those who don't know, it's a WW2 destroyer and used to be a training camp for cadet Boatwains.)

Once you got used to the finger position, you could hold the rifle at the shoulder for hours. No problem.

When did the slope arms movement come back? Anyone know?


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## qjdb (7 Mar 2007)

Trinity said:
			
		

> I know you said.. take it as you will.  It's a "great story" but it sounds like one of those rumors everyone says cause it sounds cool.
> 
> That sounds a lot closer to the truth.



I wasn't thinking in the cool story mode, just more a factor of logistics.  Don't keep the FN due to logistics, but what to replace it with?

C7?  Giving machine guns to kids, NO ( <<<< public perception).

Give them the historical rifles YES ( <<<< public perception)

So, I am thinking that there were probably several factors, one being logistics (FN vs C7) and one being public perception (C7 vs Lee-Enfeild).

Personally, as a cadet during the 80's, I loved doing the drill with the FNs.  As a CIC in the 2000's, I am not liking the Lee-Enfeild drill as much.  Of course, I am not doing the drill, but I think that the FN drill just looks sharper, because you are not trying to switch shoulders all the time.

Cheers


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Mar 2007)

I wasn't thinking in the cool story mode, just more a factor of logistics.  Don't keep the FN due to logistics, but what to replace it with?

C7?  Giving machine guns to kids, NO ( <<<< public perception).*<-- GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT, A C-7 IS NOT A MACHINE GUN ITS AN ASSUALT RIFLE!!*

Give them the historical rifles YES ( <<<< public perception)

So, I am thinking that there were probably several factors, one being logistics (FN vs C7) and one being public perception (C7 vs Lee-Enfeild).

Personally, as a cadet during the 80's, I loved doing the drill with the FNs.  As a CIC in the 2000's, I am not liking the Lee-Enfeild drill as much.  Of course, I am not doing the drill, but I think that the FN drill just looks sharper, because you are not trying to switch shoulders all the time.

Cheers


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## qjdb (7 Mar 2007)

I am fully aware that it is an Assualt Rifle, not a machine gun.  Your comment was a tad heavy-handed, my friend.

I am assuming that you did not see the ( <<<< public perception ) thing that I put there?

As in, if you hand a picture of a C7 or an M16 to the average joe on the street, and ask them what it is a picture of, what would they say it is?  I am betting that if you go to downtown << ANYWHERE THAT ISN'T A MILITARY TOWN >> and ask anyone, their answer would be "Machine Gun", not "Assault Rifle".

I think that we can agree on that, n'est pas?

Anyways, sorry for having taken this off topic (well, I guess it is technically on topic, but seems to have degraded into a pissing contest)

Cheers


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Mar 2007)

Sorry if I can off a bit heavy but it is my pet peeve about people calling a rifle a machine gun. 

:cheers:


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## reccecrewman (9 Mar 2007)

I can remember when I joined the Sea Cadets in 1991, our Corps had the Lee-Enfield as the weapon used by the Guard.  They had black wooden, C-7 size magazine shaped grips screwed into the bottoms of the Enfield's mag to make the shoulder arms position easier.  However, I also remember in 1995, for some inexplicable reason, the wooden grips were removed and we switched to Lee-Enfield drill, slope arms et al........... It only lasted for about a year and a half, then we went right back to the wooden grips and shoulder arms.  I thought that the Enfield drill looked so sharp..............


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## stealthylizard (9 Mar 2007)

I don't even consider it as an assault rifle, as that term is very broad, and applied by the government to restrict certain weapons based on "cosmetics".  To me it is just a rifle, but that is a debate few want to get into.

Anyways, I was lucky enough not to have dealt much with the Lee Enfield No.7.  That also had me fail on my NSCE as I had trained all my cadet life with the FN.  Our corp didn't even have the Lee Enfields yet.  I still think the FN's look better for Remembrance Day ceremonies.  I have not seen them done with the C-7's yet, so I can't compare in that aspect.


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## CdtBosn (10 Mar 2007)

As a former Sea Cadet if I remember correctly and Lerch will be able to correct me if I am wrong but I remember a certain Corps Gunner telling us that the shoulder arms movement was no longer to be used with cadets, but with his being a Gunner and loving Drill of all kinds proceeded to teach us how it was formerly done. I don remember on more then one occasion in PAC region the local army and Air Cadets borrowing from our rifle stores for parade use, mainly their annual reviews when they were short of rifles to form a full flag party.It also seems that we had some old replica FN's kicking around our guard room. Unfortunately for me I attempted to stay out of the Guard room as much as possible as first off a Bosn' not a gunner meaning I lack the finely tuned drill skills and I was busy with my division anyway. But back to the point we sometimes used the shoulder arms and it is very uncomfortable holding the rifle by the finger guard cuts into your finger and when we did it was usually only for short periods of time not for a parade.

Cheers,

Shay


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## quadrapiper (4 Oct 2007)

Just as a note: whoever told you that shoulder arms is no longer to be done by cadets was either lying or had been lied to.

For one, you cannot fix bayonets on the march at anything _but_ the shoulder... and HMCS Quadra does that every summer for the Ceremony of the Flags. Not the foggiest idea why the slope has become so prevalent; far harder to do in a visually pleasing manner - and angles... yeesh. "Get your arm parallel to the deck... ninety-degree between fore- and upper arm... and mind you don't launch the rifle over your shoulder." vs. "Fingers. Trigger guard. Let it hang." History buffs! Which service did what, when?

It can only be hoped that the CPU will bring rifle drill into the equation for all three elements without any pointless restrictions. Hew to the traditions of the pre-unification Services  - if the RCAF did X for ceremonial, then so shall the RCAirC... seems to work for the RCSC.


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