# Helmets 2 Hardhats [Merged]



## 57Chevy

shared in accordance with the provisions of the copyright act

Combat-to-construction program unveiled for veterans
By Tobi Cohen, Postmedia News
http://www.canada.com/business/Combat+construction+program+unveiled+veterans/4485334/story.html#ixzz1HNmOusFt
OTTAWA — Canada is importing a U.S. program aimed at helping veterans transition from combat to construction.

The Helmets to Hardhats Program introduced in Tuesday's federal budget involves no new money and will primarily consist of a new website aimed at matching skilled veterans and newly released Canadian Forces members with the construction sector.

Canada has teamed up with the Building and Construction Trades Department, the American Federation of Labour and the Congress of Industrial Organizations to roll out the program in Canada.

"Our brave Canadian veterans have earned our deepest gratitude and highest respect," Finance Minister Jim Flaherty said upon tabling the budget.

"This is just one more practical way to provide the support they deserve."

 The program launched in the U.S. in 2003 and in 2008 about 1,700 former U.S. soldiers made the transition.

article continues...


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## Martino

Call me crazy, but I'd rather have a GI Bill equivalent...


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## 57Chevy

It will be modelled on the eight-year-old United States' "helmets to hardhats" program, which Blackburn said has been "very well received.


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## Strike

Guys, if it was announced in the budget be careful of your comments.  CF members are to avoid commenting on the budget until later this week.  See this thread for further...

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/100007/post-1028715.html#msg1028715


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## PuckChaser

Yep, it was in the budget. Thread needs a 48hr cooldown until the Minister can make his announcement.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

I will lock this even though I think it's wrong........I gave up my 'military' status over 20 years ago.


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## The Bread Guy

Bumped with the latest from the PM - am also unlocking the thread since we're WAY past budget time:


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced support for Helmets to Hardhats, a program that will help provide Veterans, Canadian Armed Forces members and Reservists access to a range of careers within the construction industry, including apprenticeships in various building trades.
> 
> “Our Government is working hard to provide our dedicated military personnel, past and present, with the care, services, and financial support they need and deserve,” said Prime Minister Harper.  “We are truly proud to be part of the Helmets to Hardhats program which will help provide jobs and training opportunities for our brave Veterans, members of the Canadians Armed Forces and Reservists interested in transitioning to a career in the construction industry. The program will promote employment and economic growth while helping to meet labour needs in this sector.”
> 
> Helmets to Hardhats, a partnership with Canada’s Building Trades Unions, is an innovative partnership that brings union, private and public sector resources together to provide Veterans, members of the Canadian Armed Forces and Reservists with exclusive access to jobs and training opportunities in the construction industry, including administrative, engineering, human resources and onsite positions. The program will also stimulate growth by helping fill the much needed employment gap in the construction industry.
> 
> Candidates will be able to access information about careers and apprenticeships by telephone and from a newly developed Web site beginning in the spring of 2012. Veterans will be able to use the Helmets to Hardhats Web site to identify opportunities that interest them, and match their skill sets in the construction industry.
> 
> The Helmets to Hardhats program builds on existing programs under the New Veterans Charter which provides Veterans with the necessary support as they make the change from military to civilian life.


PM news release, 6 Jan 12

From the Backgrounder:


> The Government of Canada is committed to supporting our Veterans by providing them with the support they need, when and where they need it. This includes providing them with skills and job opportunities to transition from military to civilian life, while keeping Canada’s economy strong.
> 
> To this end, the Government of Canada is contributing $150,000 through Veteran Affairs Canada’s Community Engagement Partnership Fund to support Helmets to Hardhats, a program that brings union, private and public sector resources together to help provide Veterans, Canadian Armed Forces members and Reservists access to a range of careers within the construction industry including apprenticeships in various building trades. The program is modeled after the Helmets to Hardhats program in the United States, established in 2003.
> 
> The Helmets to Hardhats Canada program, a partnership with Canada’s Building Trades Unions, will benefit Veterans and Canadians by:
> 
> Providing transitioning Veterans with exclusive access to jobs and training opportunities in the construction industry, where they can apply the skills they developed in the Canadian Armed Forces ;
> Helping them provide for their families and to contribute to their communities in a new way;
> Helping to meet labour needs in the construction sector; and
> Helping to generate employment that continues to fuel Canada’s long-term economic growth.
> 
> The Government’s contribution to the program will serve to assist with start-up costs including website development and promotional materials. In Canada, the program is set to begin in the spring of 2012.
> 
> The private sector is also an important partner in the program. To date, TransCanada Corporation has committed $1 million over 5 years to help strengthen the link between active military duty and civilian careers in the construction trades industry. Other private sector partners are also being sought ....


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## dogger1936

So they are making a website for veterans to make them feel special.

Basically it's the civilian Apprenticeship Incentive Grant; Apprenticeship Completion Grant....with a military website.

Smoke and mirrors.


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## Jed

Well, I for one will be following this development. I personally have been doing this transition on my own and would be interested in employing transitioning vets into my business.


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## dogger1936

Jed said:
			
		

> Well, I for one will be following this development. I personally have been doing this transition on my own and would be interested in employing transitioning vets into my business.



Awesome to hear Jed. Thanks for keeping the boy and girls in mind in your new vocation.


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## greydak

I would rather them give vets priority for public service jobs, and I think the average CF vet is overqualified for construction jobs and it would be a step backwards for some?


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## The Bread Guy

Jed said:
			
		

> Well, I for one will be following this development. I personally have been doing this transition on my own and would be interested in employing transitioning vets into my business.


Good show!


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## aesop081

greydak said:
			
		

> and I think the average CF vet is overqualified for construction jobs and it would be a step backwards for some?



It is one program and one option.

Nobody is going to force vets to take it.


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## GAP

I agree.....it's great to have options. For those that want to pursue this, as I probably would have when I came back to Canada, it's great.


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## The Bread Guy

Sun Media digs up some critics to counterpoint at least one supporter:


> .... One retired Canadian Forces General says he endorses the program and has heard nothing but good reviews so far from fellow vets.
> 
> “This gives all veterans a much needed option, because as we know, transitioning from service to civilian life is difficult,” said Lewis MacKenzie, a 71-year-old Gulf War vet.
> 
> “This is a step in the right direction, and from what I’ve heard, the veterans of Canada appreciate the government’s support.”
> 
> MacKenzie is adamant the H2H program will be hugely beneficial for both reservists and veterans.
> 
> “I think the wide spectrum of skills gained in the military are conducive to a career in construction,” he said. “I do agree it’d be nice to see the veterans get some educational funding, but that doesn’t mean this isn’t a great program.”
> 
> But Sean Bruyea — a former airforce intelligence officer for the Canadian Armed Forces — disagrees.
> 
> And he’s not alone.
> 
> “It’s a generous idea, sure, but it has extremely limited application in Canada,” said Bruyea. “Not to demean construction workers, but the skill set acquired in the military is (higher than) required by construction work.”
> 
> Don Leonardo, the head of Veterans Canada, says the program is a band-aid on a much larger issue.
> 
> “The problem is military specific skills can’t be transferred to ‘civi-street,’ as we called it,” said Leonardo, 50.
> 
> “There are highly intelligent, specially trained accident investigators who, once they get out, have no means of defining a civi-street skill set. Should those men go swing a hammer?”
> 
> His answer, and Bruyea’s, is an unequivocal no ....


I think it's more than a bit condescending to say that "military specific skills can’t be transferred to ‘civi-street’ ".  As mentioned earlier, it's an option to make it easier for those interested.


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## aesop081

> Should those men go swing a hammer?”



Around where my dad works, construction folks are paid a small fortune as there is a huge shortage of qualified tradesmen. In fact, some of them are being paid even though the building they are supposed to build is not ready to start, because once you lose a crew, it is impossible to get them back. It is highly paid, skilled work that requires some of the same attributes we expect out of soldiers.

Get off you high horse, Mr Bruyea.


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## Swingline1984

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Get off you high horse, Mr Bruyea.



Agreed.  Not everyone in the military has a degree in pushing paper and skilled trades are not easy nor stupid work.  Sponsorship in an apprenticeship program can be hard to come by, and I for one think this is a good thing.


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## Pusser

I wonder if Mr Bruyea has ever considered that some folks might want to do something completely different?  Frankly, working construction is about as far as you can get from my current CF occupation, but has a great deal of appeal to me.  By the time I retire from the CF, I will have spent 38 years doing essentially the same thing.  Swinging a hammer or pulling wire could be a welcome change.  I also strongly disagree that my military skill sets will be of no value in the construction industry.  Heck, being able to tie my own tourniquet has got be worth something!  And I know I can impress the guys on the job site with a parbuckle.  I'll be watching this closely as I get closer to retirement.


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## dogger1936

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Sun Media digs up some critics to counterpoint at least one supporter:I think it's more than a bit condescending to say that "military specific skills can’t be transferred to ‘civi-street’ ".  As mentioned earlier, it's an option to make it easier for those interested.



I'm pretty sure he was talking about combat arms soldiers having zero transferable "trades". Not many lav commander jobs in North Sydney like a EME,clerk, wpns tech would have.

Leadership of course is always transferable; "military specific skills" ...not so much for some.


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## aesop081

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> ...not so much for some.



Then an aprenticeship program in the construction industry is a good option for a good paying second career for those short on transferable skills. I've been seeing alot of negative reactions to this on Facebook as well and i don't understand the objections.


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## dogger1936

I think many of the objections are due to the fact that it's the same thing offered to civilians as well...just a "rebranding" of sorts to make it appear any different than whats being offered to high school students. I also think much of the confusion lays in the fact most of our injured from our past decade of war fighting would stay in the military if they were fit enough to work construction. I started off in construction prior to the military in construction...and that aint easy work on the body. Add in a bunch of injuries not a really great place for a injured soldier to be.


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## aesop081

ok, fair enough.


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## Rifleman62

On TV last year there was a program all about Mike Homes. He does a lot of work visiting schools to promote construction trades.

You may be interested in the Homes Foundation: http://makeitright.ca/Holmes_Foundation/foundation.php?page_id=76

I will write to the Foundation to see if they will partner/support this VAC program. I am sure if MH gets in on it, VAC will accept. 

If anything, it will raise the profile of this Vet program. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


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## Jed

Excellent idea R62.


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## exabedtech

I wouldn't be so down on construction jobs.  Since I was med released I started up a contracting firm and do far better financially that the military could ever offer.  I've hired a number of PTSD cases through an arrangement with the base and while some have worked out, other haven't.  Not a lot different from other groups i've hired from.
Construction is a pretty broad field.  You have everything from the roofers doing very hard manual labour right to instrument techs walking about the site with that one tiny screwdriver.  
Getting the apprenticeship at all is the hard part, but if the military can assist you in that, its a hell of a bonus.  For a guy who just wants a job that he doesn't take home at night and doesn't aspire to run his own company, earning upwards of $60.00 an hour with plenty of overtime after 4 or 5 years isn't such a terrible deal.  I can't speak for all trades, but in mine there is no question that the journeyman's earning potential is well into 6 figures.


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## eurowing

I would agree with the program as well.  My brother is a carpenter who consistently made much more money than I over my 33 year career. He actually decided to take a break from carpentry and apprenticed as a scaffolder in Fort McMoney. IIRC, I was making around 72K a year as a WO, supervising 40 people maintaining aircraft,  my brother pulled in 90K, as an apprentice!  My son-in-law is a scaffolder as well, when we compared wages he was taken aback, stating he didn't ever remember making so little.  

Construction pays well.  Good luck to the program.


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## Fishbone Jones

People need to change their mindset. For years everyone's been told that if you don't have a professional white collar job (doctor, lawyer, etc) and a university degree you were nothing and no one would hire you. That kind of thinking gutted the skilled trades.

No one, now, can find plumbers, electricians, masons, metal cutters, carpenters, cabinet makers and the list goes on. 

All the above and any other 'working with your hands' trades are all viable and honourable professions that need people and support. The program should be expanded to cover all of these.


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## PuckChaser

exabedtech said:
			
		

> For a guy who just wants a job that he doesn't take home at night and doesn't aspire to run his own company, earning upwards of $60.00 an hour with plenty of overtime after 4 or 5 years isn't such a terrible deal.  I can't speak for all trades, but in mine there is no question that the journeyman's earning potential is well into 6 figures.



And skilled trades are all goal-oriented, and rewarded with how hard you work. A lot of military members would find this attractive as opposed to working with some parts of the public service on priority hire, and then have to deal with the red-tape they hated for the 25 years they served.


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## dogger1936

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And skilled trades are all goal-oriented, and rewarded with how hard you work. A lot of military members would find this attractive as opposed to working with some parts of the public service on priority hire, and then have to deal with the red-tape they hated for the 25 years they served.



Thats a very good point.


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## exabedtech

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And skilled trades are all goal-oriented, and rewarded with how hard you work. A lot of military members would find this attractive as opposed to working with some parts of the public service on priority hire, and then have to deal with the red-tape they hated for the 25 years they served.



They sure are!  I was 21 years in the army, released 3B, took a public service job and found that I hated working with less challenge, less opportunity and a fixed pay rate that worked the same for me as it did for the CE guy sleeping all day in a barrack TV room - yes, I was CE.  
My trade gave me the opportunity to really change the direction of my life for the better rather than settling down into a semi-retired state at only 41 years old.  
For some guys, Public service is the way to go and I hate to put it down, but you better not be an ambitious sort of person if that's where you hope to be.  No doubt someone on here has had some amazing experiences with a 6 figure paying PS job but we all know that that is the very very slim minority of available opportunities.
For a guy who likes a challenge, likes to work with his/her hands and likes to see an end product you can be proud of at the end of the job, the trades offer a lot of opportunity.  Suggest you brush up on the math/physics at the army's expense first though!!!


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## Pusser

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure he was talking about combat arms soldiers having zero transferable "trades". Not many lav commander jobs in North Sydney like a EME,clerk, wpns tech would have.



This is the attitude that needs to be corrected.  Far too often we tend to read too much into the idea of "experience" and "training."  Yes, there is job specific experience and training, and sometimes that is required, but more often than not, any and all experience and training can be useful and helpful.  Anybody who can troubleshoot a jammed GPMG and get it working again under fire, is probably also pretty good at troubleshooting equipment on a construction site....


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## GnyHwy

recceguy said:
			
		

> No one, now, can find plumbers, electricians, masons, metal cutters, carpenters, cabinet makers and the list goes on.



This is very true.  I have seen, heard and read many articles about this in the past 10years or so; it is quite a vacuum.  Ever since my days in high school in the 80s, most persons have sought after either white collar or CPU type careers and it was only the "dumb" guys that learned a trade.  Those few dumb guys are now few and far between and could probably charge pretty much whatever they want for their services.  

Anyone who has tried to get a contractor in for a relatively small job can testify to how long it takes to get them in; which is why the unaccredited "handyman" types are plentiful.


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## The Bread Guy

Pusser said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure he was talking about combat arms soldiers having zero transferable "trades". Not many lav commander jobs in North Sydney like a EME,clerk, wpns tech would have.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the attitude that needs to be corrected.  Far too often we tend to read too much into the idea of "experience" and "training."  Yes, there is job specific experience and training, and sometimes that is required, but more often than not, any and all experience and training can be useful and helpful.  Anybody who can troubleshoot a jammed GPMG and get it working again under fire, is probably also pretty good at troubleshooting equipment on a construction site....
Click to expand...

Indeed - there's an awful lot of work ethic, team participation and problem solving skills that come with soldiering that can be applied to loads of other workplaces.  Think of them as "generic work skills" as opposed to "specific military task skills".



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> No one, now, can find plumbers, electricians, masons, metal cutters, carpenters, cabinet makers and the list goes on.
> 
> All the above and any other 'working with your hands' trades are all viable and honourable professions that need people and support. The program should be expanded to cover all of these.


+100 - we need _some_ people to work at desks, but we also critically need people to _build, make_ and _fix_ things.


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## DirtyDog

greydak said:
			
		

> ... I think the average CF vet is overqualified for construction jobs and it would be a step backwards for some?


I believe you have deep misconceptions of the "construction" industry.  I know a lot of truly intelligent and dynamic people in the trades and it's difficult to finder harder workers.
Also, I'm not sure to which group in particular you to reffer to when you speak of "vets", whether is it's the 20-30 year retirees or those who've just finished a 3-6 year stint?  In the case of the latter, i beleive you overestimate a lot of them as well.l  Truly, there are some extremely competent folks in that lot, but few of them, especially in the NCM ranks, would I say moving onto a professional tradesmen job would be a step backwards.

I think too many people think of the average construction worker as some dude turning signs on the highway or slopping muck out of a ditch.  I know a lot of people in the military, especially the younger generation that would find it difficult keeping at it day in and day out without the generous holidays and, at times, forgiving schedules, that the CF affords.  In peace time garrisons, 10-14 hour days with short breaks is typically unheard of.  I know a lot of trademens putting in long hours, day in day out, either for themselves or for an employer, and have been doing so for years.  They get well compensated believe me, but it demands a serious work ethic as well in a lot of cases significant professional competence.  Not only from a work ethic standpoint, but dynamic, hands-on thinking with a strong dose of techinical knowledge is a requirement to succeed in a lot of trades today as well.  Not all soldiers possess that....


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## DirtyDog

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Then an aprenticeship program in the construction industry is a good option for a good paying second career for those short on transferable skills. I've been seeing alot of negative reactions to this on Facebook as well and i don't understand the objections.


Too many misconceptions.  I left the industry to serve.  6 years down the road and more than a few rank levels, I'm not anywhere neare where I used to be in pay and believe it or not, have not encountered many of the challenges and accomplishments that went along with it.

I want to return to the industry sooner than later, this time into a little more specialized and technical trade with the goal of my running my own business, and the last 6 years has been a huge boon to me on a personal and professional development front.  I'm eagerly awaiting the meat and potatoes of this program.


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## DirtyDog

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I think many of the objections are due to the fact that it's the same thing offered to civilians as well...just a "rebranding" of sorts to make it appear any different than whats being offered to high school students. I also think much of the confusion lays in the fact most of our injured from our past decade of war fighting would stay in the military if they were fit enough to work construction. I started off in construction prior to the military in construction...and that aint easy work on the body. Add in a bunch of injuries not a really great place for a injured soldier to be.


Not all construction work is demanding on the body and I didn't think this program was really intended as one for our wounded vets.

I do agree however about the "rebranding'.  It doesn't seem to differ much from the subsidies already in place for apprenticeship programs and what not.  I guess we'll see....


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## McG

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> ... I didn't think this program was really intended as one for our wounded vets.


I think you are correct.  This is a program for all veterans.  In other words, it is aimed as much at the wounded as it is aimed at the guy completing his first engagement and deciding to move to some other pasture.  At a time when many of our own construction engineering trades are hurting, I hope this new program does not start competing to heavily for healthy, capable pers who might otherwise have considered an alternate career within the CF.


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## GAP

MCG said:
			
		

> I think you are correct.  This is a program for all veterans.  In other words, it is aimed as much at the wounded as it is aimed at the guy completing his first engagement and deciding to move to some other pasture.  At a time when many of our own construction engineering trades are hurting, I hope this new program does not start competing to heavily for healthy, capable pers who might otherwise have considered an alternate career within the CF.



I think you will find that guys completing their first engagement and deciding to move to some other pasture probably wouldn't have stayed in. This program at least allows an alternative to putting him/her on the street and saying "have at it". It gives direction.


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## ModlrMike

I can't help but echo what Mike Rowe said:

"We talk about millions of shovel ready jobs for a society that doesn't really encourage picking up a shovel."

If this program helps to reverse that trend, the it's worth it. In addition, if it provides direction and an alternative for newly released or retired members, the it's also worth it.


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## DirtyDog

Just about everyone I know in a skilled trade (and it's a lot) are doing very well for themselves and have done so from a young age without being saddled with any student loan debt.  some of the more forward thinking guys I know will have their homes payed off before they hit 30 and still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle with all the toys guys their age are into.


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## PuckChaser

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Just about everyone I know in a skilled trade (and it's a lot) are doing very well for themselves and have done so from a young age without being saddled with any student loan debt.  some of the more forward thinking guys I know will have their homes payed off before they hit 30 and still enjoy a comfortable lifestyle with all the toys guys their age are into.



And all it takes is a little hard work and some hours that don't start at 9 and end at 5. I would say its amazing more people don't take advantage of this job boom in the skilled trades, but my generation is full of lazy, lazy people.


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## The Bread Guy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And all it takes is a little hard work and some hours that don't start at 9 and end at 5. I would say its amazing more people don't take advantage of this job boom in the skilled trades, but *my generation is full of lazy, lazy people*.


Some of it may also be parents thinking "I worked with my hands, so I want better for my son/daughter so s/he doesn't have to."


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## DirtyDog

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Some of it may also be parents thinking "I worked with my hands, so I want better for my son/daughter so s/he doesn't have to."


It doesn't help that our society constantly pushes the idea that kids MUST get a post-secondary education nowadays.  Everyone's always on me about making sure I'm puttign away money for my children's (only have one due shortly right now) college/university fund and it's funny the looks I get (usually down noses) when I reply "What if he/she doesn't need or want to go to university?".

Not that I don't budget to put a little away to help with education down the road, but this mentality that you'll be some poor destitude slob without a piece of paper to hang on the wall is ridiculous.  As is the idea of getting such a piece a paper just to get one, with no firm plan on how to utilise it.


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## The Bread Guy

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> It doesn't help that our society constantly pushes the idea that kids MUST get a post-secondary education nowadays.  Everyone's always on me about making sure I'm puttign away money for my children's (only have one due shortly right now) college/university fund and it's funny the looks I get (usually down noses) when I reply "What if he/she doesn't need or want to go to university?".
> 
> Not that I don't budget to put a little away to help with education down the road, but this mentality that you'll be some poor destitude slob with a piece of paper to hang on the wall is ridiculous.  As is the idea of getting such a piece a paper just to get one, with no firm plan on how to utilise it.


VERY good point - I'd think it's good to have the $ set aside in case Jr. wants to do work needing post-secondary, but it's also good to guide Jr. into a trade if s/he has a different (but still very necessary) kind of smarts than "book" smarts.  I say that having seen my own mom (who came from Italy with no more than Grade 4 but trained as a seamstress) who could look at a picture in a magazine and build it from scratch - I've seen folks bring in pictures for bridesmaid dresses and see her do it.  Book smarts?  Not so much.  Another kind of valuable smarts?  For sure.  We need to encourage those who show this kind of smarts that you can make a good living even without a sheepskin.


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## PuckChaser

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Some of it may also be parents thinking "I worked with my hands, so I want better for my son/daughter so s/he doesn't have to."



Until we have robots building things, there will always be people needed to be labourers. I personally see nothing wrong with an honest-days wage working with your hands, and even find it rewarding to look at a house and say "I helped build that". Our parents may have worked with their hands for a low wage but kids in my generation can gain far more using better tools in safer conditions that our forefathers ever did. They just need to want to work for it, and that's whats lacking I find.


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## mariomike

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I say that having seen my own mom (who came from Italy with no more than Grade 4 but trained as a seamstress) who could look at a picture in a magazine and build it from scratch - I've seen folks bring in pictures for bridesmaid dresses and see her do it.  Book smarts?  Not so much.  Another kind of valuable smarts?  For sure.  We need to encourage those who show this kind of smarts that you can make a good living even without a sheepskin.



 :goodpost:
I was in the "outside workers" union. We had machinists, carpenters, welders, electricians,,,you name it. 
I got to know a lot of them over the years, and had a great deal of respect for the work they did. 

I hope this "Helmet to Hardhat" program is successful, ( for those who are interested in it ). It reminds me of the scene in an old movie when a construction foreman asks, "Do you know anything about building?" The veteran says, "No, but there's one thing I do know. I know how to learn, same as I learned that job up there.":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU0d3DVcKoY


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## exabedtech

Construction work isn't for everyone.  If you're that army guy who puts in the minimum effort, expects things handed to you, can't comprehend working past 4:30, needs thorough and complete direction to accomplish a task and requires constant 'admin time' to go about your daily life then you better find a way to stay in the military forever.

Construction work is a daily challenge. You are building things, repairing things, conceptualizing things often without any plan, minimal plan or an unworkable plan yet there is no option other than success.  There are deadlines and they will hit you in the pocketbook if you fail. 

I certainly had my challenges serving a couple decades in the army, but never at the level of running a contracting business.  I find it incredible that someone might think of this sort of work as mindless.  That attitude could only come from an over inflated belief in their own worth to society or a blissful ignorance of what sort of process may have been involved in constructing, heating, plumbing, electrifying, networking and operating the buildings they spend so much time in.  A big part of the reason we have a shortage of skilled trades is that the level of skill required has gone through the roof over the past couple dozen years.  

Do not get yourself in a knot over 'experience' and 'training'.  When I hire apprentices, i'm looking for commitment, intelligence and reliability.  One the best I ever hired had been working as a ski lift operator.  Another was a PTSD case from the PPCLI.  I used to assume that being military meant that a candidate was bringing reliability and understood the meaning of timings.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  What I have learned is that the army often leaves its soldiers in a similar 'institutionalized' state as the unfortunate older black guy from  
The Shawshank Redemption.  Years of being told exactly what to do and how to do it combined with a self-contained system of medical, dental, material and administrative support can leave a person unprepared to function in the real world.

If you are military and looking for civilian work, you need to emphasis that you are adaptable, intelligent, free-thinking, committed and can deal with your own problems on your own time.  Expect to be challenged, expect to work long hours and expect to be well compensated for it.  

I find it very gratifying when I walk into a structure I helped build and know that it will be there serving a real purpose for years to come.  If you're the sort of person that takes a great deal of pride in what you do and enjoys the sense of accomplishment that comes with a job well done, then the trades are for you.


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## exabedtech

greydak said:
			
		

> I would rather them give vets priority for public service jobs, and I think the average CF vet is overqualified for construction jobs and it would be a step backwards for some?



Vets DO have priority for public service jobs and I can't help but wonder what makes you think that someone without the years of training and experience in a trade might possibly be 'overqualified'.  As for a 'step backwards', I suppose you'd need to define that one.  If its about the mental challenge, as a master electrician I can assure you there is plenty of that.  If its about the money, I get by just fine on 3 times my old army pay thank you very much.
If you have an aptitude for it, and lots of military retirees do, this is rewarding, challenging and well paying work that also happens to be in demand.


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## aesop081

exabedtech said:
			
		

> 'overqualified'........... 'step backwards',



Some have bought into the ego-boosting mentality that soldiering, while noble, is the be-all-end-all and somehow superior to anything and everything in society.

Former soldiers, of any trade, have much to offer civilian employers but it is important to remember that it is a different world out there. Unfortunate that some, out of ignorance and misguided superiority, will dismiss great opportunities.


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## Occam

exabedtech said:
			
		

> Vets _who have been medically released_ DO have priority for public service jobs



Fixed that for you...


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## exabedtech

Occam said:
			
		

> Fixed that for you...



Thanks!  I actually tried for that program when I was released... was easier to just enter a competition just like everyone else and win it on merit.  :nod:


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## Pusser

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> It doesn't help that our society constantly pushes the idea that kids MUST get a post-secondary education nowadays.  Everyone's always on me about making sure I'm puttign away money for my children's (only have one due shortly right now) college/university fund and it's funny the looks I get (usually down noses) when I reply "What if he/she doesn't need or want to go to university?".
> 
> Not that I don't budget to put a little away to help with education down the road, but this mentality that you'll be some poor destitude slob without a piece of paper to hang on the wall is ridiculous.  As is the idea of getting such a piece a paper just to get one, with no firm plan on how to utilise it.



For the most part, I agree with you.  I went to university with too many people who had no idea why they were there or where they were going.  Yet, my generation was specifically told that if we didn't go to university we would be failures.  This was simply the wrong approach and we as a society are paying for it now.

However, I don't agree with your last sentence.  You have fallen into the big trap where folks equate education with training.  There is much overlap between the two, but they are not the same.  Education is about expanding one's mind and learning how to look at things from different angles, analyze situations and develop solutions or courses of action.  An education need not be specific to achieve this.  Training on the other hand, teaches one how to do something  specific.  A big part of the problem today is that universities are often seen as job training centres .  It doesn't help that they (in search of revenue) are beginning to see themselves the same way.

Education is valuable and should be pursued, but don't equate it to training and don't expect it to lead to a specific career.


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## Rifleman62

7 Jan 12,  Rifleman 62: 



> On TV last year there was a program all about Mike Homes. He does a lot of work visiting schools to promote construction trades.
> 
> You may be interested in the Homes Foundation: http://makeitright.ca/Holmes_Foundation/foundation.php?page_id=76
> 
> I will write to the Foundation to see if they will partner/support this VAC program. I am sure if MH gets in on it, VAC will accept.
> 
> If anything, it will raise the profile of this Vet program. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.



After writing twice, and filtering through the communications department, received the following from Mike's daughter who is a program coordinator:



> This is definitely something we would be interested in learning more about and working with if there is an opportunity. We are currently reworking many of our Foundation's programs and initiatives. I will have a more in-depth look at the websites as soon as possible.
> 
> It looks like a fantastic program. Thank you for bringing this to our attention



This does not mean anything will happen.


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## kia4ever

recceguy said:
			
		

> People need to change their mindset. For years everyone's been told that if you don't have a professional white collar job (doctor, lawyer, etc) and a university degree you were nothing and no one would hire you. That kind of thinking gutted the skilled trades.
> 
> No one, now, can find plumbers, electricians, masons, metal cutters, carpenters, cabinet makers and the list goes on.
> 
> All the above and any other 'working with your hands' trades are all viable and honourable professions that need people and support. The program should be expanded to cover all of these.



idk about that. It seems that 90% of the energy in trades is advertising how good they are. I've been trying to become an apprentice for 2 years now and it's near impossible to find someone to hire a first year apprentice. It's so frustrating that every time you try and google information about apprenticeships you find pages that are designed to advertise how good an apprenticeship trade is. 

I mean the government keeps dumping money into websites and resource centers filled with social workers that make you jump through hoops for nothing. We get it, being a skilled trade is the best route, now give me a job!! I'm young, strong and willing to work anywhere, quit hiring foreign workers, quit hiring worthless hr representatives. its very frustrating, hopefully this program works because here in Toronto, I can't find anything


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## daftandbarmy

kia4ever said:
			
		

> idk about that. It seems that 90% of the energy in trades is advertising how good they are. I've been trying to become an apprentice for 2 years now and it's near impossible to find someone to hire a first year apprentice. It's so frustrating that every time you try and google information about apprenticeships you find pages that are designed to advertise how good an apprenticeship trade is.
> 
> I mean the government keeps dumping money into websites and resource centers filled with social workers that make you jump through hoops for nothing. We get it, being a skilled trade is the best route, now give me a job!! I'm young, strong and willing to work anywhere, quit hiring foreign workers, quit hiring worthless hr representatives. its very frustrating, hopefully this program works because here in Toronto, I can't find anything



Oil patch needs you!

http://www.jobsearchonline.bc.ca/pdf/op-needs-you-cr05.pdf


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## mwc

kia4ever said:
			
		

> idk about that. It seems that 90% of the energy in trades is advertising how good they are. I've been trying to become an apprentice for 2 years now and it's near impossible to find someone to hire a first year apprentice. It's so frustrating that every time you try and google information about apprenticeships you find pages that are designed to advertise how good an apprenticeship trade is.
> 
> I mean the government keeps dumping money into websites and resource centers filled with social workers that make you jump through hoops for nothing. We get it, being a skilled trade is the best route, now give me a job!! I'm young, strong and willing to work anywhere, quit hiring foreign workers, quit hiring worthless hr representatives. its very frustrating, hopefully this program works because here in Toronto, I can't find anything



Indeed getting an Apprenticeship is difficult. I found one after months of looking, and I feel I only got it because I had 2 years college. Mind you the program I took was all 3 levels of Electrical Trade school condensed into 4 semesters. I left that job though because I literally couldn't pay the bills only making about $1.50 above minimum wage. And it pissed me off that I had all this knowledge already, but was put on the same level as a kid right out of high school. Needless to say I went back to concrete work which pays better, although is much harder work.


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## stealthylizard

I was trying to get into a trade, almost any trade, for about 8 years.  The biggest problem lately is that there aren't enough journeymen to teach apprentices.  Of course if there aren't enough apprentices being trained to replace the journeymen as they retire, there aren't enough journeymen to teach more apprentices to fill those voids.


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## maniac

http://www.helmetstohardhats.ca/en/home.htm


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## Jed

I have just found out today that the Helmets to Hardhats program is only applicable for organizations that are unionized. 

Interesting... Smaller private sector businesses just don't rate.


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## mariomike

Jed said:
			
		

> I have just found out today that the Helmets to Hardhats program is only applicable for organizations that are unionized.



One of those listed is the Labourers International Union of North America (LIUNA). 

Story in yesterday's Sun about them:
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/10/21/top-pay-for-building-the-better-way


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## Wookilar

The H2H program at it's heart is an agreement _*with*_ the unions in order to capitalize on the skills sets that we bring to the table. The trades are hurting, and will be for the foreseeable future. This is a good way (IMHO) for them to build their numbers and satisfy industry needs all while helping our guys out.

Once your apprenticeship is done and you have your ticket, there may be some kind of time pay back to the union, I'm not really sure how it works.

But I can't imagine there would be too much stopping you from being a plumber on your own if that's what you wanted to do.

Their poster boy on their website, Teddy Collins was a good buddy of mine that worked 2nd line for years. Good to see him doing well. Nuclear reactors, never thought of working in that industry.


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## Gimli

I have been reading a bunch of stuff online about the Helmets to Hardhats (H2H) program.  It basically recognized military trades in the civilian world.  My understanding is that if a person has the correct military qualifications in a specific trade, then that can be transferred over to the civilian world, e.i. a journeyman ticket.  I read somewhere QL5 qualified.  

Here is my situation.  I am looking at getting into the military (again).  Currently, I am a civilian Journeyman Electrician.  Master Electrician actually (a higher qualification in Alberta).  I also have previous military experience (7 years army, not as an electrician).  However, I do not qualify to be a Electrical Distribution Tech.  My high-school math is not good enough.  I didn’t even take grade 12 math.  Why? Because it was not needed to get a diploma, and I was just a punk kid, wanting to chase girls instead.  

When I asked this question at the recruiting centre, they did not seem to know.  Nor did they know where I could go to find the answer.

I am aware of a PLAR.  However, that is not a guarantee.  There seems to be some variation and it really depends on the individual.  It is possible that there could be a waiver of qualifications, but that is not guaranteed either.  Also, it was indicated to me that this could take a long time.

So my thought; if there is program in place recognizing qualifications going one way, would it also work the other way?  Will civilian qualifications be recognized by the military?


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## mariomike

Gimli said:
			
		

> I have been reading a bunch of stuff online about the Helmets to Hardhats (H2H) program.



For reference to the discussion,

Combat-to-construction program unveiled for veterans  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/100014.0
3 pages.



> The Helmets to Hardhats Program introduced in Tuesday's federal budget involves no new money and will primarily consist of a new website aimed at matching skilled veterans and newly released Canadian Forces members with the construction sector.



See also,

Prior Learning Assessment Review( PLAR ) FAQs
https://army.ca/forums/threads/42867.75
8 pages

CF SKilled Trade jobs; Jouneyman Status? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/112669.0

As always, Recruiting is your most trusted source of official, up to date information.


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## BrewsKampbell

The CAF does recognize Journeyman/Red Seals. I'm a Journeyman Welder with Red Seal and when I applied to get back in I had Mat Tech as my 3rd choice, they cover welding and because of my credentials I would have had a portion of my QL3 course written off, according to recruiting.


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## Gimli

Thanks


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