# Im calling you out



## WOGsoldier (19 Sep 2009)

OK I have been thinking about this post for a few weeks now. I was going to put it in here last week but didn't know what to say. Now after a belly full of Lamb's Navy Rum I think that I know what I want to say.

I think that this question or maybe cry for help will be targeted to the older generation of the army. Im going on my 16th year in the military. I started off in the reserves then went to the PPCLI, I re mustered and now I am now on  QL5 course in Borden. Last year I was given the PLQ mods 1-6 and past with flying colors  I am now in borden and I see thing that are way the **** different from my Basic. 

Here is my question;

You guys that have had 20 30 35 years in the service how did you cope with the way the army was changing. Im having a very hard time accepting the way things are today. But I do know by snapping it wont get me very far and besides I dont need a RED card pulled on me.

All you older generations out there that might still be in or just got out plz give me some advice.


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## FastEddy (19 Sep 2009)

WOGsoldier said:
			
		

> All you older generations out there that might still be in or just got out plz give me some advice.




I've been wondering about that. If I gave you my thoughts, I'd get a Red Card for sure.

But I posted because I'd like to follow the replies to your question.

I guess I wouldn't recognize Borden today, but good luck and happy sailing.

Cheers.


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## PMedMoe (19 Sep 2009)

So, let me get this straight.  You're on a QL5 course and worried about someone pulling a red card on you.  Why are you jacking people up?

You did Basic 16 years ago, things have changed, not necessarily for the better.  Get used to it.


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## Gunner98 (19 Sep 2009)

After 25+, you cope by taking a mature approach when faced with the perceived chaos around you.  You look for the positives.  There is good in everyone, however, misguided they or the policies they are following appear to be.  In private you may be cynical and bitter, but if you want to lead you must understand the new ways.  The younger generation are better educated, less tolerant of b.s., and want to understand the whys (and will no tolerate the old ways, "because I said so" or "it's a drill follow the drill").

Many of us entered a system that had no time for questions but no reason for the hurrying.  Today soldiers enter a system that is in a hurry with recruiting quotas and a battlefield to fill with trained, competent soldiers where knowing the whys are the difference between life and death.

The new ways are not all bad and the new soldiers are not all lazy/whiny.  If you can't find the positives in the "new" military then you should find the door.


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## Eye In The Sky (19 Sep 2009)

Some of your frustration may come from switching from Combat Arms to "something else".  Different trades have different "cultures" for lack of a better term.

I'll never forget clearing into my first "non army" unit;  I reported to the UCPO, came properly to attention in the doorway of his office...and _scared_ him.  Literally.  When I stopped to come to attention (up 6, down 12 kind, SOP in the Army, right?), the PO1 that was following me ran into the back of me, and knocked me fwd 2 paces.

I started laughing out loud.  At them.  I thought to myself "holy f**k, what kind of circus are these clowns running".

Give it a chance is my opinion.  I've come to realize that not all units in the CF operate like a Combat Arms unit, and it isn't a bad thing either, its just different.  I still call my Sgt "Sgt", my CO is still "Col" to me, I still get haircuts (No. 4 on the sides and back vice a No. 1 that used to be the norm for me in green).


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## WOGsoldier (19 Sep 2009)

MOE- No Im not worried about a red card that was a bit of humor. What I was trying to say that as a soldier if you see someone doing something wrong like marching all fucked up then you should correct the action. I am not jacking people up lol I want to but I just keep my mouth shut.

TURNER-you are right take a mature look at it and find the positives and remember the good times. Things change for the better I guess.

Eye In The Sky- you are also right never loose what you have and always act like a Soldier it might catch on.

Thanks a lot gentlemen your info has been very helpful.


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## Grey (24 Sep 2009)

Per, Eye In The Sky; I was reading through the forum and was thinking pretty much the same thing that they said -- so I don't have much left to say  After I got back from Afghanistan earlier this year I remustered as a Supply Tech, coming from over eight years in the infantry, for a new change of pace. When I first showed up at my new unit and reported in, the scene pretty much played out like that which Eye In The Sky described. It was a little weird to get used to, but it was good nonetheless. Anyways, WOGsoldier, I hope that things work out for you there in Borden, as well as afterwards, and that you're able to find some sort of balance between the old and the new.


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## daftandbarmy (24 Sep 2009)

If you think about it, hitting people on the head with logs because they weren't taking up 'good' fire positions probably wasn't the best approach to training. I certainly won't miss that part of the 'good ol' days'. 

I'm pretty happy with the way the army's changing these days, and the 'thinking level' quality of most of our troops. If that means I can't effectively exercise my ego in a way that I saw people do too often, and without accountability, 20 years ago, then I can live with that.


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## hank011 (4 Oct 2009)

Better equipment, more people, less tradition, I'd say stay your course. After 20 yrs in i can only say that as your rank increases, your GAFF has to decrease or you will have a coronary. 
No one wants work anymore just credit, why bother creating problems. Collect the pay...retire...no problem.


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## brihard (12 Oct 2009)

Sorry, maybe it's a Borden thing, but what is a 'red card'? Guessing from context, is this some sort of 'Please stop picking on me, MCpl!' mechanism for butthurt recruits?

Someone please explain this beast for me...


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## armyvern (13 Oct 2009)

WOGsoldier said:
			
		

> OK I have been thinking about this post for a few weeks now. I was going to put it in here last week but didn't know what to say. Now after a belly full of Lamb's Navy Rum I think that I know what I want to say.
> 
> I think that this question or maybe cry for help will be targeted to the older generation of the army. Im going on my 16th year in the military. I started off in the reserves then went to the PPCLI, I re mustered and now I am now on  QL5 course in Borden. Last year I was given the PLQ mods 1-6 and past with flying colors  I am now in borden and I see thing that are way the **** different from my Basic.
> 
> ...



Ha! You _must_ be in CFSAL. I know how you feel - being here in Boredom myself. Never have I seen the likes of it...

People (an Officer at that) walking from his car into his workplace sans headdress; troops with hands in pockets, lounging around outside in front of Canex smoking, people in uniform walking past the Canadian flag and outright failing to salute it (or their marching NCO failing to give the eyes right for the flag or saluting passing Officers); outside talking on cellphones while marching walking to classes <--- I even saw one a couple of weeks ago who was talking on his cellphone while in ranks marching ...

(Edited to add: The above observations were not of simply "CFSAL" personnel ... they come fm observation of many an assorted beret colour & cap badges and a variety of schools). 

It's frigging scarey here.

Drink more beer. PM me next time you want one!!  :-\


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## observor 69 (13 Oct 2009)

Sounds like the place is going Air Force.


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## 4Feathers (13 Oct 2009)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Sounds like the place is going Air Force.



Nope, I just checked expedia.ca and there are no 5 star hotels at Base Borden.


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## CountDC (13 Oct 2009)

If it is CFSAL then go with your rank.  When I was there a few months back it was weird that we were allowed to use the center stairs at the bull pen.  Most courses were "marching" to the school.  We were encouraged to correct the lower ranks when we saw something wrong but in a nice way - excuse me pte, could you take your hand out your pocket vice stop playing pocket pool and get your damn hand out of your pocket.

Simple - step back, reload and realize - hugs and kisses not punches and kicks these days. And no you cannot invite them to the other side of the ML/CU/Jeep to talk to your friendly tire iron - these days someone is sure to be around with a cell phone with built in camera already to post to youtube.


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## Loachman (13 Oct 2009)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Sounds like the place is going Air Force.



The airfield opened in 1917, and that part became RCAF Borden when the RCAF was formed.


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## observor 69 (13 Oct 2009)

During the lifetime on courses, or did it just seem like it, I have spent at CFB Borden on the "Air Force" side I had the impression that outside the flight line most of the schools were primarily for  army/purple trades.


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## ballz (13 Oct 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> The younger generation are better educated, less tolerant of b.s., and want to understand the whys (and will no tolerate the old ways, "because I said so" or "it's a drill follow the drill").
> 
> Many of us entered a system that had no time for questions but no reason for the hurrying.  Today soldiers enter a system that is in a hurry with recruiting quotas and a battlefield to fill with trained, competent soldiers where knowing the whys are the difference between life and death.
> 
> The new ways are not all bad and the new soldiers are not all lazy/whiny.



I didn't know there were older generation CF members that looked at this way. Nice to know as a young guy with zero experience that this mentality to training and operating sits well with them.

On course this summer, which was mostly civie ROTP students with the age demographic being 18-22, we were all kinda shocked at how... open for discussion... some of the stuff we were learning was. We could basically drill our instructors with "why" questions without paying for it (obviously not "why do we have to mop the floors?" but "why does this procedure of doing it this way exist? What is it's purpose?") the way . At first we were too afraid ask things, but when we realized it was ok, we learned and understood things a lot better, without getting hit over the head with a log :nod:


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## Roy Harding (13 Oct 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> I didn't know there were older generation CF members that looked at this way. Nice to know as a young guy with zero experience that this mentality to training and operating sits well with them.
> 
> ...



It shouldn't surprise you.  

Who do you think is conceiving, approving, and implementing this "mentality to training"?  Your 18 - 22 year old course mates?


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## ballz (13 Oct 2009)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> It shouldn't surprise you.
> 
> Who do you think is conceiving, approving, and implementing this "mentality to training"?  Your 18 - 22 year old course mates?



No... I thought it was people such as TDOs who would take this kind of direction, and that it probably didn't sit very well with SNCOs and WOs in the Combat Arms and such. I was thinking that they'd be left thinking "if this were up to me..." I suppose I was wrong? But it's not like there aren't a large portion of the people that don't make those decisons that aren't thinking that?


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## armyvern (13 Oct 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> I suppose I was wrong? But it's not like there aren't a large portion of the people that don't make those decisons that aren't thinking that?



I suppose that I may be wrong too, "but it's not like there aren't a large portion of the _younger_ people that are thinking that we seasoned people are all just a bunch of dinosaurs and "screwing people around/putting forth shitty training regimens" just because of our age/TI."
N'est pas?

 :

That's what stereotyping gets ya'.


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## ballz (13 Oct 2009)

Well I guess that's what I get for expressing gratitude around this place.


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## George Wallace (13 Oct 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> No... I thought it was people such as TDOs who would take this kind of direction, and that it probably didn't sit very well with SNCOs and WOs in the Combat Arms and such. I was thinking that they'd be left thinking "if this were up to me..." I suppose I was wrong? But it's not like there aren't a large portion of the people that don't make those decisons that aren't thinking that?











Could you rephrase all of that.  It is so full of double negatives that I got lost.  Are you saying that:

1.  "there isn't a large portion of people who are not making those decisions, who also don't think that";

2.  "there are a large portion of people not making those decisions, who don't think that";

3.  "there isn't a large portion of people who are making those decisions, who don't think that";

4.  "there are a large portion of people making those decisions, who don't think that";

5.  "there isn't a large portion of people who are making those decisions, who do think that";

6.  "there are a large portion of people who are not making those decisions, who do think that";

7.  "there are a large portion of people who are making those decisions, who do not think that" or

8.  "there isn't a large portion of people who are not making those decisions, who do think that?



You are very confusing.


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## ballz (13 Oct 2009)

Sorry...

From what I've seen (and I'll admit it's not much to go by but it's all I had to go by up until this thread), it seems that "there IS a large portion of the (experienced, respectable) people that aren't making those decisions, that are thinking, 'If it were up to me (insert some sort of older mentality statement here)' "

I was wrong apparently, great, fine, dandy even. That's all that needs to be said. My assumption was wrong.

Anyway, I don't like where this is headed. I expressed some gratitude that my previous analysis might be wrong, and now it's going to lead into trying to jam stuff down my throat that I never said or insinuated in any way shape or form.

Out.


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## George Wallace (13 Oct 2009)

Hey.... 


If I were Prime Minister, I would _________________________ .


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## medaid (14 Oct 2009)

ballz said:
			
		

> Sorry...
> 
> From what I've seen (and I'll admit it's not much to go by but it's all I had to go by up until this thread), it seems that "there IS a large portion of the (experienced, respectable) people that aren't making those decisions, that are thinking, 'If it were up to me (insert some sort of older mentality statement here)' "
> 
> ...




.... suck it up. 



(The Dino in me crawled out... wait... I'm not that old... must just be a  : feeling)


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