# DND DM Comings & Goings (merged)



## casing (10 Aug 2004)

> Prime Minister Paul Martin today announced the appointment of Ward P.D. Elcock as Deputy Minister of National Defence.



Does it matter who fills this position?   Does the Deputy Minister actually do anything?   This is a legit question, I am not trying to be sarcastic.

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news.asp?id=244

_Edit:_ This probably could have gone in _News_ instead, I guess.


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## Armymedic (10 Aug 2004)

Actually yes he does. The Deputy minister is actually the CDS's boss.


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## Freight_Train (10 Aug 2004)

The DM runs the department.  If the Minister changes, typically the DM stays, sometime through a change of party.  So yes it does matter, this person will have a lot of say in what happens with the CF over the next several years.  I think that because he comes from CSIS, we should see a clearer focus for the CF.  I hope anyway.
Greg


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## Brad Sallows (10 Aug 2004)

>The Deputy minister is actually the CDS's boss.

Not quite.  Peers.

http://www.vcds.forces.gc.ca/dgsp/00native/tools/NDHQ_Org_Chart_e.doc


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## 291er (11 Aug 2004)

The role of the DM is essentially that he/she is chief of staff of the civilian workforce of DND and is the senior civilian advisor to the MND.  The CDS does not answer to the DM, but more to the MND.  All regulations and orders pertaining to the CF are issued by the CDS or by the MND through the CDS.


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## casing (11 Aug 2004)

Thanks for the replies!

So, since it is agreed that the DM makes a difference, what are the opinions on Elcock as the new DM?


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## Sundborg (11 Aug 2004)

He's still a liberal - I think that says most of it there.  The Liberals have already done enough damage to the CF; but, I can't just base my opinion on the history of the party, but that usually is how it is.  We'll have to wait and find out.


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## casing (11 Aug 2004)

Requesting input from Infanteer.  Always has good insight on this sort of thing....  And anyone else of course.


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## clasper (11 Aug 2004)

Several opinions have been voiced already...

http://army.ca/forums/threads/18069.0.html


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## casing (11 Aug 2004)

Ahh, thank you!   Must have missed that thread somehow.  I think I thought that thread had to do with the new director for the CIA so I just skipped it.  My bad. 

Could a moderator close this thread, please?   Thanks.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Sep 2007)

Mod Squad:  Torn between this and Cdn Politics - happy with your call....

*PRIME MINISTER ANNOUNCES CHANGES IN THE SENIOR RANKS OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE*
Prime Minister's Office, 18 September 2007
Statement link

Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced the following changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service. These appointments are effective October 1, 2007:

Ward Elcock, currently Deputy Minister of National Defence, becomes Senior Advisor to the Privy Council Office, pending his next assignment. 

Robert Fonberg, currently Senior Associate Secretary of the Treasury Board, becomes Deputy Minister of National Defence.

(....)

ROBERT FONBERG

Date of Birth:
January 1955

Education: 
Master of Arts, Economics, Queen's University
Bachelor of Arts (Honours), Economics, University of Toronto

Professional Experience

Since May 2006
Senior Associate Secretary of the Treasury Board
2004 - 2006
Deputy Minister for International Trade and Associate Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
2002 - 2004 
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet (Operations), Privy Council Office
2000 - 2002
Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet (Plans and Consultations), Privy Council Office
1998 - 2000
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Liaison Secretariat for Macroeconomic Policy, Privy Council Office
1997 - 1998
Senior Vice-President, Corporate Planning and Technology, Business Development Bank of Canada
1995 - 1997
Principal, Public Sector/Strategy Practice, Ernst & Young Management Consultants
1993 - 1995
Director, Policy Division, Economic Development Policy Branch, Finance Canada
1991 - 1993
Director, Canadian Unity Coordinating Secretariat, Deputy Minister's Office, Finance Canada

And the last time this sort of thing was discussed here (last post - 02 Jul 07)
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/40460.0/all.html


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## Edward Campbell (19 Sep 2007)

It may be that:

1. Clerk of the Privy Council Kevin Lynch/Prime Minister Harper (they are, generally one in the same when these sorts of decisions are taken, I think) are worried about the _management_ of DND, perhaps including some of the recent controversy about the stresses of operations in Afghanistan derailing Gen. Hillier's much ballyhood _transformation_ project.

2. Elcock is wanted elsewhere for his expertize in the intelligence business.

3. Elcock is tired and needs a change. DND is a very big, very 'rich' and very complex department - more of challenge than any other line department, maybe more of a challenge than any other two line departments, combined. Working with O'Connor must have been a strain; shifting to MacKay may have been too much for Elcock.

4. The civilian side of DND may be restless. Rumour had it (a month or so ago) that many senior civil servants chaffed at the _"undue emphasis"_ accorded to military operational requirements at the expense of established, bureaucratic procedures - especially in contracting and financial management. Elcock may not have succeeded in damping the flames of discontent.

It's probably something else entirely. Maybe Elcock's slovenly dress and deportment finally upset the ultra-fastidious Harper/Lynch team.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Sep 2007)

I note Mr. Fornber's stops in pretty major places (Finance, Treasury Board, Foreign Affairs, Ops & Plans in PCO) -- all the biggies now that he's in DND.

Any sense of being groomed for bigger and better things, or luck of the political draw in postings?

_- edit to fix punctuation -_


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## Edward Campbell (19 Sep 2007)

I don't think there is ever any _luck of the draw_ when DM assignments are concerned.

He does, indeed have an excellent CV.

DND needs a lot more money; more (by 50%) than is currently projected. Fonberg looks like the sort of fellow who might be able to make the case (to Lynch and Rob Wright at Finance) that DND is able to plan and manage well enough to be able to use more money effectively.

My personal  sense remains that DND is mistrusted in the political centre in Ottawa because, ever since (highly umpopular but very respected) Bob Fowler left, planning and management, of the whole Department (including the CF), has been something less than excellent - probably less than adequate.


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## retiredgrunt45 (19 Sep 2007)

> The civilian side of DND may be restless. Rumour had it (a month or so ago) that many senior civil servants chaffed at the "undue emphasis" accorded to military operational requirements at the expense of established, bureaucratic procedures - especially in contracting and financial management. Elcock may not have succeeded in damping the flames of discontent.



This hit a nerve :rage: If senior CV feel so upset about the new procurement process, they have only themselves to blame for the less than adequate process that was in place before Harper sped things up. I think they should go back to pushing pencils and shut the F***hell up, or better yet don a uniform and go help our lads in Afghanistan, maybe then we'll see how fast they get new equipment in place, when it's their a**** on the line. Bureaucrats, waste of oxygen.


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## dapaterson (19 Sep 2007)

I'd look to a collection of indicators:

(1) A new MND.

(2) No destination specified for Mr Elcock.

(3) Ongoing head butting between PCO and DND that has been documented in a number of places (were I keen, I'd find the Army.ca thread).


Looks to me like the Clerk rid himself of that meddlesome priest, and installed one of his own disciples instead.


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## Old Sweat (19 Sep 2007)

That may be, Dataperson, but Mister Elcock had the intelligence and security desk in the PCO and then ran CSIS. I wonder if there is more to this.


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## The Bread Guy (20 Sep 2007)

A bit more, shared with the usual disclaimer - highlights mine....

*Demoted deputy tapped to head National Defence*
Kathryn May, Ottawa Citizen, 20 Sept 07
Article link

A senior bureaucrat earlier sidelined by the Harper government has been appointed to become the civilian head of National Defence, the department many say has become too powerful under charismatic Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier.

The appointment of Robert Fonberg as the deputy minister of National Defence was part of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's latest shakeup of the top ranks of the public service. Mr. Fonberg replaces Ward Elcock, a longtime deputy minister and former head of CSIS, who becomes a special adviser to the Privy Council Office while awaiting another posting.

*Some speculate Mr. Elcock would be an ideal candidate for the foreign intelligence agency the Conservatives promised in the 2006 election.*

*Mr. Fonberg's appointment stunned many senior officials who say his "in-your-face" management style will shake up National Defence, which many argue is largely being directed by Gen. Hillier*, whose charisma and highly effective marketing campaign of the military is reshaping the Canadian forces and the mission in Afghanistan.

Mr. Fonberg, the former deputy minister at International Trade, was *essentially demoted and sidelined to Treasury Board as a senior associate secretary in April 2006 after the Conservatives undid the painful and botched separation of of the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.*

Observers say his appointment is a "highly risky gamble" for the government and Mr. Fonberg personally. It is very unusual for a senior bureaucrat in the penalty box to be promoted to the top job in the government's most important portfolios without specific marching orders.

*Some say he's being put in the job to "toe-the-line," and that the Afghan mission, like all other government priorities, will be managed by the Prime Minister's Office and officials at the Privy Council Office.* But the more pervasive view is that Mr. Fonberg is being sent to rein in the power of the military and the popular Gen. Hillier.

One senior official said the Conservatives want a counterweight to Gen. Hillier to at least tone down the media coverage of the Afghanistan mission so it doesn't overshadow all other issues during the pre-election period.

Alan Williams, a former assistant deputy minister of procurement at Defence, said the department has historically run into problems when the power balance between the civilian and military sides of the department gets out of whack.

"There seems to be just one voice coming out of the military right now," he said. "It's critical for running that military and civilian balance that each understand their areas and accountabilities and each ensure they are being adhered to."

The deputy minister of defence is supposed to oversee the budget and policy, procurement and the management of the non-uniformed public servants working in the department. The chief of defence staff is in charge of the military and its operations and is supposed to execute the government's defence policy.

( .... )


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## Scoobs (21 Sep 2007)

This is not good news for the military.  The new DM is known to be a "cutter" and I sense the Conservatives distancing themselves from the CF for political gains.  All politicians are the same.  They never support us and stand their ground for morals, ethics, and for what they believe in.  Is power all that it is about?  I feel let down.


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## Edward Campbell (21 Sep 2007)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> ...  The new DM is known to be a "cutter" ...



Good. 

*There is still fat* in NDHQ and throughout DND, including *in the CF*. Even though I've been retired for years and years I feel 100% certain that I can say that without fear of (informed) contradiction. The waste and institutional ineptitude should be cut before it tarnishes the whole oragnization.

DND needs firm policy direction and resources to implement it. Both depend upon Harper and Lynch *believing* that DND can *do* the policy and spend the money well. A firm hand at the _management_ tiller will help.


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## Flip (22 Sep 2007)

> Good.
> 
> There is still fat in NDHQ and throughout DND, including in the CF. Even though I've been retired for years and years I feel 100% certain that I can say that without fear of (informed) contradiction. The waste and institutional ineptitude should be cut before it tarnishes the whole oragnization.
> 
> DND needs firm policy direction and resources to implement it. Both depend upon Harper and Lynch believing that DND can do the policy and spend the money well. A firm hand at the management tiller will help.



I don't think anyone can argue with that Edward.

+1


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## Scoobs (22 Sep 2007)

I agree that there is fat to be cut, but what I meant for "cutting" was that there may be a chance that certain items already purchased or planned to be purchased, will not be bought.  Examples are the C-17's, Chinooks, the rest of the order of Leo II's.  I guess we'll just have to see if we have a fall election and what will come out of that for the CF.  Just thought I'd say, there are tonnes of rumours flying around right know.


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## Flip (22 Sep 2007)

Scoobs, 

I think Edward is referring to the bureaucracy at DND.
DNDs civilian employees for the most part.

DND cannot be just another civil service department...


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## Old Sweat (22 Sep 2007)

Scoobs,

Purchases that expensive are authorized by Cabinet. There have been no indications that the political leadership is thinking of cancelling them, nor would any DM be so reckless as to defy the central authority by attempting to derail an authorized project. If, on the other hand, the economy was to tank and the government was to put in place a massive austerity program, a DM might mothball or delay the implementation of a program. Most of us have seen that sort of thing happen.


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## Edward Campbell (22 Sep 2007)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> I agree that there is fat to be cut, but what I meant for "cutting" was that there may be a chance that certain items already purchased or planned to be purchased, will not be bought.  Examples are the C-17's, Chinooks, the rest of the order of Leo II's.  I guess we'll just have to see if we have a fall election and what will come out of that for the CF.  Just thought I'd say, there are tonnes of rumours flying around right know.



*IF* there is a Liberal minority government with Dion as leader which needs NDP/BQ support to govern then I'm sure you're right. Several big ticket items will be cut/cancelled.

I doubt, really doubt, that Harper/Lynch put a squinty eyed economist there to serve BQ/Liberal/NDP interests. My guess remains that Lynch has convinced Harper that DND is, chronically, poorly managed and that it needs shaking up - in part to restore the _proper_ civil-military _balance_ in which the DM is the minister's _alter ego_ and the CDS is responsible for the effective administration and discipline of the CF and for planning and overseeing the military aspects of operations.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Oct 2007)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> That may be, Dataperson, but Mister Elcock had the intelligence and security desk in the PCO and then ran CSIS. I wonder if there is more to this.



Good eye - as of 11 Oct 07, "Ward P.D. Elcock, Senior Advisor to the Privy Council Office, has been named Coordinator for the 2010 Olympics and G8 Security."


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## dapaterson (12 Oct 2007)

Suffice it to say that the new position was identified (and perhaps created) after Mr Elcock was replaced.

It was a putsch, not an orderly relief in place.


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## Edward Campbell (1 Aug 2009)

This, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_ is *gossip* (and, in fairness, the author admits that) but it is gossip that has a bit of factual information about DND’s Deputy Minister so it may be of interest:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/meet-ottawas-new-power-couple/article1238490/


> Meet Ottawa's new power couple
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know that many people think that the CDS runs the CF; some, less that brilliant, CDSs actually thought that, too. The CDS “administers” the CDS – DND, which includes the CF, is “run” by the DM. It’s important to know about him or her.


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## Good2Golf (1 Aug 2009)

Both Mr. Fonberg, and the Associate DM, William Pentney, are very savvy individuals.  Running a Department is not easy, particularly Defence, which every other Department seems to always have its sights on for making the case for transfers, reductions to DND, increased to them, etc...  I believe that Mr. Fonberg has done a pretty solid job in his post.

Two more cents,
G2G


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## Edward Campbell (1 Aug 2009)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Both Mr. Fonberg, and the Associate DM, William Pentney, are very savvy individuals.  Running a Department is not easy, particularly Defence, which every other Department seems to always have its sights on for making the case for transfers, reductions to DND, increased to them, etc...  I believe that Mr. Fonberg has done a pretty solid job in his post.
> 
> Two more cents,
> G2G




Ditto.

I saw a few DMs "up close" - one or two were probably excellent, a few were OK to good and one or two were probably weak.  More to the point, I think I can correlate "results" - things that happened to DND and the CF - to DMs' tenures. On that basis Mr. Fonberg has done/is doing an excellent job.


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## dapaterson (1 Aug 2009)

Mr Fonberg has a thankless job.  However, he is perhaps more interested in minutia than is healthy for his position, and is truly a bureaucrat, in both the positive and negative senses of the word.  The military expression of "sense of urgency" is one that today seems to be lacking; the old saw that a poor decision that is timely is better than a perfect decision too late comes to mind...


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## Good2Golf (1 Aug 2009)

dapaterson, that may be for some things, and may be a left-over from his TB days.  I understand that some things that were quite critical go his undivided attention and no minutiae-hunting at all.  As Mr. Campbell say, it can be an absolutely thankless job.  There is no doubt that the Department overall, not just the CF, has done fairly well compared to its sister Departments in the GoC; I am certain that doesn't happen by accident.

Regards
G2G


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## Edward Campbell (13 Aug 2009)

Rather than start a new thread ...

This is a small bit, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the inside pages of today’s _Ottawa Citizen_, but the subject of the story might have a major impact on Canada’s defence policy:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Harper+names+finance+deputy/1887018/story.html


> Harper names new finance deputy
> 
> Mark Iype, Canwest News Service
> August 13, 2009
> ...





His biography (taken from a 2008 conference programme) is:



> Michael Horgan
> *Deputy Minister, Environment Canada*
> 
> Michael Horgan is Canada's Deputy Minister of the Envionment. He previously served as deputy minister of Indian and Northern Affairs Canada, G-7 deputy for Canada and senior associate deputy minister of finance.
> ...



Along with the Clerk of the Privy Council, Mr. Horgan is, arguably, a member of a tiny group of really “powerful” officials – elected or otherwise – in Ottawa. His views on spending priorities, reinforced by experience in planning and priorities in the PCO, *will* have a real, measurable, direct impact on the size of the defence budget and, albeit to a lesser degree, on how it is spent.

And again, see also here.


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## observor 69 (28 Sep 2010)

PRIME MINISTER ANNOUNCES CHANGES IN THE SENIOR RANKS OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE

Matthew King, currently Associate Deputy Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, becomes Associate Deputy Minister of National Defence, effective October 12.    


Complete article at LINK


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## ARMY_101 (22 Apr 2013)

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/04/22/powerful-bureaucrat-leaves-job-in-massive-defence-department-shakeup/



> *Longtime deputy defence minister leaves job in massive department shakeup*
> 
> OTTAWA — The senior levels of National Defence were the focus of a massive upheaval Monday as the Conservative government announced longtime deputy minister Robert Fonberg was leaving the job.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (6 Jan 2015)

.... as of 19 Jan 2015 according to the PM's Info-machine:


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced today the following changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service:
> 
> Richard Fadden, currently Deputy Minister of National Defence, becomes National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister, effective January 19,  2015 ....



Since I can't see any indication in the statement of a name being picked to take Fadden's place as DND DM, does that mean he's double-hatted as of 19 Jan, or "more to follow"?  Either of the posts sounds busy enough for one person, so I'm guessing the latter.


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## George Wallace (6 Jan 2015)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> .... as of 19 Jan 2015 according to the PM's Info-machine:
> Since I can't see any indication in the statement of a name being picked to take Fadden's place as DND DM, does that mean he's double-hatted as of 19 Jan, or "more to follow"?  Either of the posts sounds busy enough for one person, so I'm guessing the latter.



Ummmmm?


Mr Fantino of Veteran's Affairs fame is now the Associate Minister of Defence and  will support the Minister of National Defence in the areas of arctic sovereignty, information technology security and foreign intelligence, thus continuing the Government’s efforts to defend our values and interests at home and around the world .....


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## dapaterson (6 Jan 2015)

World of difference between Fantino's new/old gig and being a DM or senior advisor.


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## McG (6 Jan 2015)

The DM has more influence.


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## Edward Campbell (6 Jan 2015)

MCG said:
			
		

> The DM has more influence.



A lot more ... DM has a direct line to the Clerk and, therefore, the PM, at all times. Most ministers (not Baird and Kenny and one or two others) must go through the PM's Chief of Staff; Clerk does not.


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## PPCLI Guy (6 Jan 2015)

Moreover, he controls policy and money.  The CDS just provides military advice.


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## Cloud Cover (7 Jan 2015)

the idea of Fantino having any connection to CSE at a ministerial level is simply repulsive.


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## CombatDoc (7 Jan 2015)

DM's replacement has not yet been named, but Mr Fantino will report to him.


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## Retired AF Guy (7 Jan 2015)

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> DM's replacement has not yet been named, but Mr Fantino will report to him.



This  chart  doesn't list an Associate Minister, but it it does list a Senior Associate DM, so I'm assuming that is the person Fantino will report to, not the DM.


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## McG (7 Jan 2015)

Cabinet posts do not report to bureaucrats.  It is the other way around.


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## Edward Campbell (7 Jan 2015)

MCG said:
			
		

> Cabinet posts do not report to bureaucrats.  It is the other way around.




Well, yes, in theory, _sorta_  :nod:  ... but remember that _'Yes, Minister'_ and _'Yes, Prime Minister'_ were, really, documentaries.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Jan 2015)

This just in from the PMO:


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced the following changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service:
> 
> *John Forster*, currently Chief of Communications Security Establishment Canada, becomes Deputy Minister of National Defence, effective February 2, 2015.
> 
> ...



Some background:


> *John Forster*
> 
> Education
> Master of Business Administration, YorkUniversity
> ...


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## dapaterson (26 Jan 2015)

The head of CSEC is being promoted to Deputy Minister for National Defence.  John Forster takes on his new job on 02 February.  He'll also have a new #2; the current Assistant Deputy Minister for Materiel, John Turner, will move into the position of Associate Deputy Minister.  No word on a replacement for Mr Turner yet, nor any word as to where the current Associate Deputy Minister, Mr Bill Jones, will be going.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/cse-spy-chief-shuffled-to-defence


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## The Bread Guy (22 Sep 2017)

Changes @ the top @ DND ...


> The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, today announced the following changes in the senior ranks of the Public Service:
> 
> Jody Thomas, currently Senior Associate Deputy Minister of National Defence, becomes Deputy Minister of National Defence, effective October 23, 2017.
> 
> ...


Bios ...


> *Jody Thomas*
> 
> Education
> 
> ...





> *Bill Matthews*
> 
> Education
> 
> ...





> *Gordon Venner*
> 
> Education
> 
> ...


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