# Entering the CF and YOUR Money....



## Armymedic

So you have your call and you've been hired on full time to come play in the Canadian Forces. Whether you career plans are for a short but good time, or plans to stay in the CF for the long haul, you will be paid a decent wage for your service. Knowing this, there is so many options for you to dispose of your income, and a whole bunch of people and places who will want your hard earned dollars. 

Like time, once your dollars are wasted, they are gone. All you can do is try to earn more, but that, in our salary for time pay system, is a losing battle if money is going out faster then you are earning it.

Of my 17 yr (so far) career, the best advice I have ever received from anyone was from an Armour Sgt during my battleschool who helped our course get into a RRSP program. I started it early, and despite some setbacks (withdrawls) I have accumulated a small nest egg, enough for a real decent house down payment, or survive for a yr without wages. 

In my case that sum was about $100 a month until about 7 yrs ago, and about $50 since my children were born. (We have an RESP for $50 as well) This is in addition to the Canada Savings Bonds (which can be done thru CF payroll) I have contributed to for most of my career.

The point, instead of being concern of what kit you will be issued, or how to act during the Basic training before you actually step onto the bus, take a few moments of thought about what you will do with your money. Set up a small RRSP account or savings account in which you will be able to sent a small amount of money monthly to and have saved up from service day 1. AND DON"T TOUCH IT. After yr 5 when you meet that nice girl/guy and want to buy a house, you have something to pay for it with.

My suggestion is a small amount, about $50-100, that you barely notice its gone, but large enough that over 24-36 months, you have a chuck of change saved for when you need it. 

There is/was an outstanding, simple to read book authored (my copy anyway) in 1989 by   David Chilton called "The Wealthy Barber". It reads a story where the local barber discusses simple personal finanical sense to his customers. My suggestion is that you should read it before you go, or shortly after you have completed your training. It will be worth your while.



Now that my rant is done, I would wish for the mods to sticky this thread, and any and all advice, questions, and occasionally opinions to do with personal finances be discussed here.   Pay issues can be discussed elsewhere. 

some links:

SISIP:   http://www.sisip.com/en/index.asp

Canadian Forces Pay Scale
(Link updated May 2009 to CF site, please advise forum staff if link is broken due to changes in CF site structure.)


Remember, its your money, only you can give it away.


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## jswift872

Ive had those darn pamphlets for rrsp's for the longest time, but I didn't have the motivation to put what seems like a little bit of money away every month, after reading your post there armymedic I think tomorrow when the banks are open again, I will go open one. Thanks...


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## Strike

I started my RRSP when I was in my 2nd year of uni.  I had been living in shack or renting until last year and was never delayed in my training so I never really got a big chunk of back-pay to be able to use as a deposit on a house.  I'll tell you, being ablt to have a few bills set aside that I could use for a downpayment was really nice.

Another note about money, I always tried to increase my contribution whenever I got a substantial raise.

Finally, remember that when you move there is usually a large chunk that is left over from your allowance.  My last move I threw it into my RRSPs.  This time around I used it to pay down the interest rate on my mortgage.

Armymedic,  good on you for starting this thread.  Hopefully some of the guys that throw some of their "extra" money into other types of investments will jump on board.  I've always been interested in stocks but have absolutely no idea where to start and I've seen how well some of the guys at work are doing simply because of this.


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## BDTyre

I've been doing monthly RRSP contributions of $100 for about 5 years, and my work has forced me into an RRSP program in which they take 3% of every paycheque (they also match that).  That's been going on for about a year and a half.

So, any money I get from the reserves will be extra.


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## George Wallace

Armymedic

Good advice.   I started my SRSP back in 1983 when I came back from overseas and started out small like you with a $100/month.   With pay raises and promotions I took the money, even before I became accustomed to having it, and upped my monthly payments to $250.   That more or less maxed me out, with usually only about $40 at the end of a fiscal year that I could put into my RSP.   By having the Payroll deductions, I never even missed the money.   It takes a while before it seems to do anything, but suddenly after about 15 years it will suddenly take off.

The best advice I ever got before joining was from a RSS Sgt.   He advised me to buy a house on every posting, and in the end of my Service I would own a house.   Many of us older guys remember those old SSMs, RSMs and Officers who lived in PMQs and had all kinds of big toys, who when they retired landed up working on Base as cleaners because they had to buy a house and couldn't afford it on their pensions.   At first, being single, I enjoyed living in the shacks, but when I got married and then posted to Kingston, I was forced to buy a House as there were no PMQs free at that time.   The best move I made.   I sold that house for a bit of a profit, something you can't do if you rent, and bought in Petawawa.   In Pet I was able to get my mortgage down to $5,000 and when my wife, who had got a job in Ottawa was loosing her apartment, all my suggestions that a mortgage was cheaper than rent paid off.   We bought a house in Ottawa, and remortgaged the house in Pet.   Now I have two mortgages, which keep my pockets kind of empty, but in a couple of months when I Retire and sell the house in Pet, I will be able to use all that cash to pay off the house in Ottawa.   That advice from that Sgt paid off and I will own my house on Retirement.

When buying a house, I would advise you to take out a mortgage and make weekly payments.   That way you actually cut down on the time it will take to pay off your mortgage, you will save in the range of $100,000, and you will know that every week you will be missing so much from your account.   By paying weekly, or even bi-weekly, you are actually paying for 13 months in a year.   That extra month really knocks down your mortgage.   Another thing, if you have extra cash, make an Anniversary Payment and knock your mortgage down even more, as that is paid against the Principle and there is no Interest deducted.   If you reallyhave extra cash, some banks allow you to pay more than what your mortgage paymen; ie:   if your mortgage payment is $100/week, you may be able to up it to $105 and that extra $5 goes directly against the Principle, and it has no affect on what you can pay for an Anniversary Payment.

Stocks and Bonds.   Canada Savings Bonds are a waste of time and money these days.   If you want to get into that GICs are usually a good idea and most Banks can help you out there.   When you have some "Fun Money", money that you can loose and not affect your finances, and you want to play with Stocks and Mutual Funds; shop around.   I had some Fun Money years ago and went to a Broker, who sold out to Midland Walwyn and I was doing OK, but they were bought out by Merrill Lynch, who decided that they were not making enough money in Canada, and sold out to CIBC.   Well, now, I am not a big investor and with the stock crashes, I have under $10,000 invested with them.   CIBC has a management fee of just under $150 annual to manage the money you invested, don't forget buying and selling fees, on accounts under $10,000.   They are recouping their fees by selling my stocks and lowering my account even more.   Don't you just love the big Banks for Service Charging the "little guy" to death?   I would advise that if you do want to start playing with Stocks etc. that you shop for an Independent Broker and only do so if the money you want to play with will not cause you financial grief down the road.

Independent Brokers are a good thing.   They usually deal with more than one family of Funds, Stocks, etc.; where the Banks and large firms like Merrill Lynch sometimes do not deal with Stocks or Funds outside their "Family".   

Independent Insurance Brokers are also good to find for Car and Home Insurance.   They will shop around and find you the cheapest, or best Insurance for your needs.

I'll take a rest and let someone else give some good advice.

Gw


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## Sundborg

I find GIC's are great to put some money into when you don't need it.  It's a garenteed investment at a low interest rate which makes it a whole lot better than just sitting in your bank account getting .005% for example.  What I have done lately is purchased some low risk Mutual Funds at the RBC, the Monthly Income Fund to be exact.  I've only had the money in there for around 2 to 3 weeks and I've already made $130 off of it, it's great!  That's like $40 a week.  That's enough to keep your car goin with regards to gas.  But of course I wouldn't touch the money for a while, it's a great way to look at what kind of money you are earning from these funds.  It's a whole lot better than just sitting in your savings account getting little to no interest at all.  The only bad thing about these funds is that one can lose money too, but since it is a low risk fund, one wont lose all that much if one does.  But over time the funds usually do go up with percentages of like 5-18% in a year.
I also do have some RSP's that are kicking around aswell as a few GIC's.  I find having all of these kinds of investments puts my money over a broader range of areas and allows myself to earn a little more money that just sitting in my bank account.


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## George Wallace

Don't forget the TAXMAN......If you make any money on your investments, you will have to pay taxes on your Capital Gains.

GW


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## Long in the tooth

One rule when you enrol - unless you absolutely need a car don't have one.  Take the equivilent amount of payments, gas and insurance and invest it.  It's amazing the number of guys I interviewed after their first BE who had nothing to show for it.  After three years of living in the 'shacks' with no kids and no car, I had $30,000 for a down payment on a condo.  During those three years of investing I still had almost $500 a month to blow on whatever I wanted.  An incredible amount of disposible income that I wish I had now... (two cars three kids).


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## George Wallace

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> One rule when you enrol - unless you absolutely need a car don't have one. Take the equivilent amount of payments, gas and insurance and invest it. It's amazing the number of guys I interviewed after their first BE who had nothing to show for it. After three years of living in the 'shacks' with no kids and no car, I had $30,000 for a down payment on a condo. During those three years of investing I still had almost $500 a month to blow on whatever I wanted. An incredible amount of disposible income that I wish I had now... (two cars three kids).



Which brings us to Marriage.......I, as a young single soldier, had a nice bank account building up.....then came marriage.....it disappeared real quick.  Now that both of us have good incomes, there are no problems, but it took a lot of work on both our parts to get to where we are today.  

It always puzzled me to see all those guys graduate from TQ3 and race home to marry their High School sweethearts.  The pay isn't bad for a single soldier, but it sure isn't that great for a single income family.  Once you reach the heights of Cpl, then you will have more "room" to do such things.

GW


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## Armymedic

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Which brings us to Marriage.......I, as a young single soldier, had a nice bank account building up.....then came marriage.....it disappeared real quick.   Now that both of us have good incomes, there are no problems, but it took a lot of work on both our parts to get to where we are today.



Marriage and postings. I got married and moved. Wife had a full time provincial gov't job in NB before, and nothing for a yr afterward. We planned to try to buy a house, but the difference in the old wages to the significant drop in family income, with added expenses as Ont car insurance etc,  put us in the hurt, despite the wife taking min wage jobs. Thats when I had to dip in to the CSBs and RRSP, especially when #1 child is born and the wife is not eligable for mat leave benifits.

Anyway, it turn around about 5 yrs ago and its been growing again since. 

About cars, if you do buy a car, buy one a yr or two old. A new car depreciates in value by 40%+ the moment you drive in onto the street. Also, a car is not an investment...it drains money: car payments, insurance, gas, etc, etc.


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## Morgs

is it also my understanding that you can make a 1 time tax free withdrawal on an RRSP for a wedding or a downpayment on a house?
I could be wrong but this is what i understood.

(Edit: When i said RRSP i meant GIC, duh)


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## Strike

You can make a withdrawal on your RRSP to buy a house.  It is suposed to be a one time thing but, if you have been renting for several yrs you have the option of doing a withdrawal without penalty to buy again.  I think it is something like 10 yrs.  My pareants did this after numerous years of renting.


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## Griswald DME

Since we are speaking about money I have a question about qualifying for a mortgage.  I haven't been in contact with IRP yet, and certainly I will be asking them these same questions.

My wife currently works a fulltime government job and a part time on call job so she makes a decent buck.  I am a civvy electrician and reservist Ed Tech, so I make a decent buck as well.  We live in a large, expensive city where a small box to live in costs 200,000.   We own one such box and want to rent it out and purchase a house at my new posting, where the houses are dirt cheap compared to where we are now.  As part of our retirement plan, we want to diversify and include some rental income in our portfolio, and this is a good chance for us to start.

My question is has anyone here done this?  I'm curious if the financial institutions take the rental income from the condo we leave behind into consideration for the amount I would qualify for.  If not, me being Cpl (basic), theres no way I would be able to qualify to cover both mortgages, even with the houses at the new posting being dirt cheap.  I believe Cpl (basic) makes about 44K/yr, which means roughly 100K - maybe around 130K maximum mortgage, which isn't much if you have to cover two places.

Anyone here have a similar experience and can offer me some insight?  I do know I get a real estate incentive for NOT selling my place, and it will be somewhere around $8,500. which should help out a bit.

Thanks,

DME


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## Garbageman

Griswald said:
			
		

> We own one such box and want to rent it out and purchase a house at my new posting, where the houses are dirt cheap compared to where we are now.   As part of our retirement plan, we want to diversify and include some rental income in our portfolio, and this is a good chance for us to start.



The bank will want to see a larger downpayment (i.e. 25%+) if you're going to try to float two mortgages.

They will look at rental income as a source of income if you can provide them with a letter from your tenant stating how much they are paying each month (which requires having a tenant already in place).

I'm sure there are other restrictions around having a place that's not your primary residence, but best bet is to just phone your bank or mortgage broker.


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## Garbageman

Strike said:
			
		

> You can make a withdrawal on your RRSP to buy a house.   It is suposed to be a one time thing but, if you have been renting for several yrs you have the option of doing a withdrawal without penalty to buy again.   I think it is something like 10 yrs.   My pareants did this after numerous years of renting.



Home Buyer Plan:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/topics/rrsp/withdrawals/hbp/menu-e.html

You can take out a maximum of $20,000 from your RRSP tax free the first time you buy a home.  Read through the link for the details, but there are ways that you can take advantage of this more than once (rent for a few years, have the home purchased in someone else's name, etc).


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## Morgs

Whilest we are on the subject of money i have a question about back pay. I have been hearing a numerous people on this forum saying the CF owe them back pay. Does this only account for Reserve force, or are Reg force personnal affected by this?

cheers.


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## Armymedic

Morgs said:
			
		

> Whilest we are on the subject of money i have a question about back pay. I have been hearing a numerous people on this forum saying the CF owe them back pay. Does this only account for Reserve force, or are Reg force personnal affected by this?



Pay issues, as such, are discussed in the Admin site.

This thread is to talk about money, where to direct it before and after it hits your bank account.


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## Sundborg

Does anyone currently own some mutualy funds at RBC?  If so, what one(s) are you in and how has the perfromance been on that fund in the past little while?


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## Long in the tooth

On purchasing a new home while renting out another... checked into this years ago as I was exactly the same boat.  The banks are very, VERY Picky about this.  Your renter could take off at any time leaving you high and very dry quickly, with two mortgages.  The last thing the banks want is a repo.  At a different time I had a reliable friend renting my basement.  When he left his replacement was not.  The couple of hundred I was used to getting each month 'for free' turned into thousands lost after cleanup.

Next point - taking out RRSPs to pay for your down payment.  Been there.  Wouldn't have done it.  They allow you 15 years to pay back your RRSP (and you don't get the deduction again, of course) or it is considered taxable income.  As most of us will see our incomes go up due to inflation without comensurate changes in tax brackets, a higher percentage is paid in taxes.  It's a pain in the a** at tax time as well.


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## Griswald DME

Thanks for the heads up on renting out the old place.  You're actually the first person who said the banks are very picky about this, what bank did you deal with, out of curiousity?  It does make sense about them being picky though as they need to look after themselves.  I wonder if it has to do with the current market?  Where our condo is the vacancy rate for rentals is near zero, so I'm hoping they will give me some leeway on the application, but we'll see... it may not make an ounce of difference.

Side note, I deal with mortgage brokers only, not directly with one bank.  It highly increases my chances of getting a decent interest rate and decent approval limits.  My friends (he's Cpl same as me) just received 4.5% interest rate on his, not bad at all.  Plus I've had really bad experiences with major banks (one in particular asked me three times if I want life insurance for my car loan, I told her NO very clearly and she ended up adding it to the application anyways) so I refuse to deal with banks directly.  Gotta love brokers!

DME


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## Long in the tooth

The banks I had dealt with were the Royal and Bank of Montreal.  A second mortgage seriously reduces the percentage you have down and may lower your ratio to less than 25% which means you have to pay the CMHC penalty.  Conversely, if you have a primary residence that's say, 50 - 60% paid off, then go for it.  Just remember you now have the obligations of a Landlord!


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## annemarielyman

Sundborg said:
			
		

> Does anyone currently own some mutualy funds at RBC?   If so, what one(s) are you in and how has the perfromance been on that fund in the past little while?



My husband has had a Royal Balanced Mutaul Fund for 9 years and can't wait to pull it out this summer. He has made nothing. Actually he's down and he has never gone above the initial investment by more that a few dollars.

Hope this helps.


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## Armymedic

If your investing at the beginning of your career, then you should be looking in the long term, 10+ yrs. Its best to find a no load RRSP and maintain a monthly amount for a long period of time. Don't follow the media because the media is a step behind where the money is. 

Because of patriotic purposes, go with Can Equity, as those types of funds invest in Canadian companies....

and thats the extend of my financial advice.


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## Sundborg

annemarielyman said:
			
		

> My husband has had a Royal Balanced Mutaul Fund for 9 years and can't wait to pull it out this summer. He has made nothing. Actually he's down and he has never gone above the initial investment by more that a few dollars.
> 
> Hope this helps.



That's too bad.  Hopefully it will go up eventually, most ones do over time.  I am currently in the Monthly Income Fund, and so far it has done me well.  I havn't been in it too long, but I've made some profit so far.
Here is a link to the RBC funds page :   https://www1.royalbank.com/cgi-bin/rbaccess/rbunxcgi?F6=1&F7=5g&F21=IB&F22=5g&lblLanguage=EN&lblTabClicked=Price&lblSeries=A&lblSorted=CATG_ORDER&lblPubAccess=Y&

Each day they are updated and shows how much each fund has gone up or down aswell it shows the units and prices and % change.
I was just taking a look at the RBC Energy Fund and I was amazed at how much it has gone up over the past few years.  I'm thinking about getting into that one if I get a few bucks together I just may.  The only thing about that one it is prety high risk and one could lose a lot of money on something like that over just a short time.  To me it looks on a pretty steady incline though over the past little bit.


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## Garbageman

Sundborg said:
			
		

> Each day they are updated and shows how much each fund has gone up or down aswell it shows the units and prices and % change.
> I was just taking a look at the RBC Energy Fund and I was amazed at how much it has gone up over the past few years.   I'm thinking about getting into that one if I get a few bucks together I just may.   The only thing about that one it is prety high risk and one could lose a lot of money on something like that over just a short time.   To me it looks on a pretty steady incline though over the past little bit.



A couple of points:

1.  If you're investing in an RRSP, then theoretically this is a long-term move, so looking at your fund's performance every day will only drive you to drink.  2-5 year returns are far more useful indicators.

2.  That Energy Fund has already made a pile of money.  This means that you're now going to be buying high.  Although the fund will likely still make more money for you over the long-term, getting in now when the fund is peaking could mean that it'll be many years before you start to see any real gains.

Just remember that buying even "low-risk" funds is a speculative move.  The only thing guaranteed are GICs and bonds, and they aren't going to make you rich any time soon.  If you're going to put your money in something with some risk, you'll likely make more, but you have to ask yourself "can I afford to lose this?" (I'm a once proud Canada 3000 shareholder).


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## Sundborg

Of course looking at the ups and down could make one drive to drinking, but myself, I like to see daily activity.  I also lke to keep an eye on other funds too.  I do agree that one should watch the 2-5 year growth rather than just a day to day basis.

Buying into the engergy will likely still make one money over time due to shortages of natural resouces and the rise of prices. If one were to buy some of the energy fund today, you will still gain the same amount in returns like someone who bought it previously at a lower cost if it were to go up the same %.  These gains, however, would be respective to your amount invested.


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## Long in the tooth

I owned some of the energy fund long ago when Royal Trust still existed.  I made 40% in one year and bailed, but if I had the nerve to stay in would've seen it go up another 80%!  It did crash after that though...

I had been very lucky as I moved funds out of the Japaneses market just before the crash of 87.  I put the cash in the Bank of Montreal Mortgage fund and made a good return as the market lost 25% that year.  On the flip side, I had a chunk of change in Bre-X, and the lawsuit keeps going.


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## undecided

I am starting bmq in a couple of weeks and wth my Fathers help I have been trying to outline what I am going to do with my money from the get go. My Dad is a self proclaimed financial advisor, mostly because he has 'been there and done it all'. Anyways, I don't have any idea how much money is taken off of my pay cheques for such things as room and board, taxes (what percentage), the CPP and the forces pension plan. If anyone can enlighten me it would be most helpful. Also any other deductions and vacation pay would also be appreciated. Thanks


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## Armymedic

Don't worry about producing an actual budget until you are complete you training and at your first posting for atleast 3 months. 

Reason I say this is because until your done training, you pay will vary depending on where you are. Once you are posted you can track you first 3 pay guides for all the pay and deductions more accurately.

Until then, plan to save $50-$200 a month, depending if you have any other debts/family who need you money as well. 



			
				Recruit Konyi said:
			
		

> I am starting bmq in a couple of weeks and wth my Fathers help I have been trying to outline what I am going to do with my money from the get go. My Dad is a self proclaimed financial advisor, mostly because he has 'been there and done it all'. Anyways, I don't have any idea how much money is taken off of my pay cheques for such things as room and board, taxes (what percentage), the CPP and the forces pension plan. If anyone can enlighten me it would be most helpful. Also any other deductions and vacation pay would also be appreciated. Thanks



To answer you question, the CF will do your deductions for you, taking of at the source. You need to be concerned about your net (take home) pay. 

If you have an place to put the money, then bring the RRSP or investing acct number to Basic with you and ask your clerk to transfer money from your pay direct to your account, that way whatever pay you get into you spending acct is yours.


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## Sundborg

Recruit Konyi said:
			
		

> I am starting bmq in a couple of weeks and wth my Fathers help I have been trying to outline what I am going to do with my money from the get go. My Dad is a self proclaimed financial advisor, mostly because he has 'been there and done it all'. Anyways, I don't have any idea how much money is taken off of my pay cheques for such things as room and board, taxes (what percentage), the CPP and the forces pension plan. If anyone can enlighten me it would be most helpful. Also any other deductions and vacation pay would also be appreciated. Thanks



As a recruit on your first pay scale  you will be making around $600 each pay cheque, that is of course after all deductions have been taken off, including rations and quarters.  Once you are taken off rations after basic training sometime, you will be makeing around $750 each pay cheque.  Keep in mind this is all money in your pocket to spend.


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## mkymk

Unfortunately, it's such a huge topic and people have spent lifetimes discussing the art of investing. I've been an independent investor for the past 10 years. I have a degree in business and I've also completed the Canadian Securities Course. (This doesn't mean I'm smart though. There's so much to learn out there but I can think of a few key things.)

1) Diversify - this is key. Never put all your eggs in one basket (just look at Nortel)
2) Know your risk and adjust your portfolio accordingly. riskier investments usually have a higher return. Build a portfolio that suits you and only you! you'll have to know 3 categories of investments. 
a) T-Bills (almost like cash); easily liquidated; lower risk; low return
b) Bonds; higher risk and higher return than T-Bills.
c) Stocks; highest risk of all, but highest return usually.
Most portfolio usually have a percentage of all 3 depending on your age and risk tolerance level. Those closer to retirement age usually holds much less stock than someone young who can afford the risk.
 3) If you are starting out, stick with mutual funds because they are diversified already, plus they allow you to invest smaller amounts.
4) when buying mutual funds, check the MER (Management Expense Ratio) on the fund, over time, your investment will suffer with a high MER.   MER is how the fund manager makes a living.   Lower MER means more money working for you.
4b) There's no reason why you should be buying a no No-Load fund. Buy from a competitor that offers No-Load funds.
5) I recommend index funds because it is extremely difficult to beat the market. Over time, index funds (TSE 300, Dow Jones, S&P 500) tend to perform better than most actively managed funds. Plus the MERs on index funds are much lower.   Another bonus is you can simply watch TV to see how your stocks are doing!!
6) invest regularly. Timing the market is another very difficult thing to do. Also, stick with a "buy and hold" strategy. You are investing for the long term.
7) don't buy individual stocks unless you are an expert and have a lot of "fun money". whatever information you see on stock quotes (like mergers and acquisitions) are 20+ mintues delayed plus commission on trading can be expensive if you're dealing with small amounts
8) Arm yourself with as much knowledge as you can (who's got the time right?). The more you understand, the more you'll be able to reach your investment goal.


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## Long in the tooth

If I can throw out some last free advice -

1.  Pay yourself first  - 10%.  Put that 10% into RRSPs which will be a tax deduction, you'll get 30%+ back.

2.  If you are single put another 5% into unsheltered mutual funds.  Low fees/admin costs.  Look around.

3.  Watch for the dam*ed credit cards with the fine print!!!!


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## Michael OLeary

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> 3.  Watch for the dam*ed credit cards with the fine print!!!!



learn to use your credits cards sensibly while you ae young and have the disposable income to play with. Plan your expenses to pay them off completely whenever you can, in order to avoid any interest charges if possible. Remember that banks will happliy provide you credit to the point where you can only afford to pay the interest, and little more.


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## Sundborg

I've had a credit card for 4 months and have only used it 3 times.  If I have cash to pay for something in the bank, no point using the card.  I've only used to for purchases online using paypal or something over the phone.

Credit cards are good and bad.    There's no reason to use it unless you can pay it off, that's how I look at it.


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## FredDaHead

Sundborg said:
			
		

> I've had a credit card for 4 months and have only used it 3 times.   If I have cash to pay for something in the bank, no point using the card.




Actually, the advice I've been given over and over and over and over is that when you start using credit, you should use it regularly and always pay off the card either completely as much as you can, or at least pay more than the minimum payment. That way, it establishes that you're responsible, etc, and you end up getting higher credit margins over time, and it basically just helps you build a better file.

But that's just what I've been told, might've been wrong.


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## Griswald DME

Sundborg said:
			
		

> I've been using my cradit card a few times this month and for the last few payments I've paid it all off, so it's all good.



My wife and I use our credit cards for anything and everything - but we don't use it for anything frivilous.  We pay off our credit card every month - we have had it for over two years and haven't paid one penny in interest.  We receive over $500/yr in travel credit (not air miles) we can use towards any vacation we choose.  If it wasn't for this bonus we would pay cash for everything.  I don't like the idea of paying 18% or more of my hard earned cash to some mega corporate banking institution.


----------



## BernDawg

I saw the light, perhaps a little too late, and have been paying $200 a month into mutuals for ten years.   It was a big chunk of pay especially when we were starting our family at the same time but, as my wife says, "I don't plan on eating catfood when we retire!"  We have managed to buy a starter home and will make a tidy profit on it when we get posted again but I started paying into the funds too late.  I have reached 20 yrs of service and even if I wanted to I can not yet retire although the funds are doing quite well.  Give early and give lots!  You are putting money into your own pocket in the long run.


----------



## Island Ryhno

My mother in law is one the best financial advisers in Canada and has been recognized as such, here are some of the things that I have learned from her, free of charge, otherwise it would cost about $100 dollars an hour  8) Pay down stupid debt, don't carry it with you i.e. credit cards at 18% if you do have to carry debt get a PLC (personal line of credit) which brings the interest rate down to between 4-8%. Don't lease, buy, think about it, if you get your vehicle on a 48 month buyout, you have a 4 year old perfectly good car, and can be car payment free for 2-3 yrs if you mantain your vehicle well, it adds up (say an average of $450 per month) Buy a house ASAP, it's the best investment anyone could ever make, it's called equity! RRSP's need to be started ASAP as well, doesn't matter if you can only afford to put $50 in a month for the first while, the secret is compound interest and the earlier the better.


----------



## schutz

OK, I like how people are giving investing advice on here that are not financial advisors.

Personally I am a financial planner with an accounting degree, and many investment courses from institutions accross Canada.

RRSPs are decent investment tools, but not the greatest out there. The problems with RRSPs is that the government has control over them, and every penny coming out is taxed. To make it worth while, you have to throw the tax deduction into your RRSP as well. So lets say I put $8,000 per year into an RRSP, and get a tax savings of $3,200. Well, instead of using the $3,200, you should throw the $3,200 into your RRSP. So your real contribution would be $11,200. There's an even better way to work with RRSPs involving gross-up loans and such, but I won't get into that here. There is another investment tool out there that is far superior to RRSPs, but since this website can be viewed internationally, I cannot talk about it on here.

When dealing with investments, such as mutual funds, avoid companies like Clarica, Banks, Investors Group etc. because they have proprietary products (their own investments), and as a result they can only market those products, and usually they are inferior to other ones. So find a company/broker to deal with which is totally independent. Same goes with insurance products. term4sale.ca is a good website for comparing term insurance. Note that amongst the cheapest providers are: Transamerica, and Equitable Life, neither of which can be sold by Clarica advisors for example. I don't want to get into detail here either, because it is actually AGAINST THE LAW TO PROVIDE INVESTMENT/INSURANCE ADVICE IN AREAS THAT YOU ARE NOT LICENSED FOR!

Find a good advisor in your area and work with them. Don't go off of other peoples' advice out there, because are they financially independent? I think not. However, making some sort of investment is far better than none at all. Fortunately for those who stick it out and retire with a pension in the military are better off than the average civilian, but the general population is still in the dark when it comes to sophisticated investments.

Schutz


----------



## schutz

Real estate does not rise every year, it can fluctuate. Over the long term, without something to drive up the land values, values should match inflation over the long haul. Which means unless you buy in an area that later on becomes wanted, you really wont make any money.

Most people say to get into real estate, but that is based upon the consumer demand from the baby boomers in the late 70's early 80's. Where there were not enough current houses to satisfy the demand for the drastic increase in population. Thus inflation, and interest rates went through the roof at the time.

Schutz


----------



## Chainsaw

Question re: the pay scales: are the figures on there net or gross income?

Also, what percent is taken off for tax/CPP, that kind of thing.

If these questions sound a bit dense, remember, I'm 17 hopefully starting BMQ in the fall, so I don't have much experience with this kind of thing.

Cheers,


----------



## Garbageman

schutz said:
			
		

> Find a good advisor in your area and work with them. Don't go off of other peoples' advice out there, because are they financially independent? I think not.



Isn't this a just a tad contradictory?  Or are financial advisors not "other people"?

Also, if a financial advisor really knows all, then why aren't they financially independent, and hence, retired?

Just a little food for thought.  I know financial advisors can be very helpful, but I believe all advice should be taken with a grain of salt.  I used to go to an independent advisor myself, until I discovered that they were making a commission off of every transaction, and, as a result, wanted me to switch up my portfolio every 5-6 months!


----------



## Sundborg

LongRange said:
			
		

> Question re: the pay scales: are the figures on there net or gross income?



They are gross figures of monthly income for 1 month.


----------



## Redeye

There are some advisors who engage in some dodgy ethical practices (the industry term is "churning"), but for the most part we aren't like that (incidentally, I'm a Certified Financial Planner myself).  I used to be skeptical of why anyone would deal with a commissioned advisor, but any time you go to hire a planner, ask how they get paid.  If they're not up front about their compensation, then don't do business with them.  Most CFPs will have you sign a letter of engagement that explains all of this.  Don't be afraid of commissioned planners, either.    Overall, you're paying for the service you get from them over time one way or another.

The firm I'm with rebates commissions we get if we switch a mutual fund investment that has deferred sales charges, for example.  If we made a decision we believe needs to be changed, we don't see that as a profit opportunity.  Some in the business don't do this, but I consider such a practice wholly unethical (and it could be grounds for disciplinary action if the advisor is a CFP licensee!)

In the end, financial planning is a business, the planner/advisor is looking to earn a living.  What you need to do in selecting one is ask questions - ask about what service they expect.  Ask for referrals.  Ask about what services they can provide, what they can't, and if they have referral agreements to help ensure all your bases are covered.  If you're just starting out, a bank isn't a bad place to go - because generally you can set up a simple savings plan, and the advisors are generally salaried - the advantage to you there is that if you don't have a lot to invest, a lot of advisors (unless they are charging you a fee) won't give you a lot of time - time is money, and they haven't got a lot to make on the deal.  A bank can help you get started and build up some equity, which then you can take to an independent advisor who can start to offer you more customized solutions.

If I were in the position of just being out of school, newly in the Forces and making money on a stable basis for the first time, that's what I'd do, knowing what I do.

I'm interested to see how good the SISIP FP's are, if they know their stuff well, I can't comment on them from any form of personal experience, though.



			
				Garbageman said:
			
		

> Isn't this a just a tad contradictory?   Or are financial advisors not "other people"?
> 
> Also, if a financial advisor really knows all, then why aren't they financially independent, and hence, retired?
> 
> Just a little food for thought.   I know financial advisors can be very helpful, but I believe all advice should be taken with a grain of salt.   I used to go to an independent advisor myself, until I discovered that they were making a commission off of every transaction, and, as a result, wanted me to switch up my portfolio every 5-6 months!


----------



## GO!!!

SISIP, like any other financial services company, has it's own proprietary products. They are from AIG - which just applied for bankruptcy protection. SISIP will not help you invest anywhere else.

Maybe someone else knows what happens to the investors now?? I believe deposits are covered, but not interest.

Avoid SISIP if you can, an independent financial advisor will serve you much better, even if they do charge nearly what a lawyer does!


----------



## Basic Person

is there a min age requirement for RRSP? I am 17 but would like to contribute as soon as I can


----------



## Redeye

No minimum age, the sooner you start, generally speaking, the better.


----------



## Gunner

> is there a min age requirement for RRSP? I am 17 but would like to contribute as soon as I can



No minimum age for starting an RRSP however you must have filed income tax in previous years in order to generate contribution room.  Contribution room is based on your earned income for the previous year (ie RRSP deduction for 2005 is based on earned income in 2004).  You will note that financial planners encourage young people to file an income tax return even if they don't make much money as this provides contribtution room that can be carried forward for future use.

If you do contribute to an RRSP at a young age, you will want to be careful about claiming it as a deduction.  Generally speaking, young people (less than 18) do not make a lot of money during the year and they pay little if any tax.  You are allowed to carry forward RRSP deductions for future use and you will probably want to do this if you know that you are going to be making more money in the future.

As an example, I was deployed for much of 2004 and approximatley 5 months of my salary was tax free.  Although I made a large RRSP contribution for 2004, I carried about 30 per cent of it forward to 2005 when my taxable income will be much higher (as I will only have approximately 6 weeks of tax free income).  Depending on how much I contribute to RRSPs in 2005, I may wish to further carry over some my RRSP deduction to 2006 or later.

Cheers,


----------



## 45506445210414924

being the age that i am (19) this is some advice for us "youngn's" haha if your working part-time and still in highschool like what i was doing, your yearly income will probably float just undr $10,000. I here that RRSP'S are based on your LAST YEARS income tax?? we'll heres what i did haha just before i started my job i had told my employer to deduct an extra 75$ per pay, when i received my t-4 this year and after i did my taxes i got back over 1700$ hahaha so would that "benifit contribution purposes" for an rrsp?

and as a new recruit (reg force) starting bmq up in fall that $600, is that what you make monthly? or weekly?? 

im looking to start up an investment savings account, theres no fees, and has an interest rate of 2.5% i'm hoping to live on base too and pretty much bank my income, so at approx. $250/month for an investment savings account @ 2.5% is that a good deal? 

Also i here GIC's, RRSP's, RSP's, Canadian Savings Bonds (or Premium bonds) <--- Actually i havn't heard to many people mentions Canadian Premium Savings Bonds? Whats the hurt of trying to invest in all of them??


----------



## Gunner

> doing, your yearly income will probably float just undr $10,000. I here that RRSP'S are based on your LAST YEARS income tax?? we'll heres what i did haha just before i started my job i had told my employer to deduct an extra 75$ per pay, when i received my t-4 this year and after i did my taxes i got back over 1700$ hahaha so would that "benifit contribution purposes" for an rrsp?



Mike, two points on this statement: First RRSP contribution room is earned from your gross earning, hence, whether or not you have your employer save $75 a month or not it doesn't effect your RRSP contribution room (18% of your total gross income - before income tax, EI, CPP, etc).  Secondly, unless you are a very poor saver, I don't think your strategy is effective as you are in essence providing the government with a tax free loan and you are missing out on any interest or growth it may make.



> im looking to start up an investment savings account, theres no fees, and has an interest rate of 2.5% i'm hoping to live on base too and pretty much bank my income, so at approx. $250/month for an investment savings account @ 2.5% is that a good deal?



Most planners recommend ING Direct or President's choice financial for high yield savings accounts.


----------



## Basic Person

I was watching the news and the GIC's aren't doing very well... some of the shorter terms were below the inflation rate.


----------



## Gunner

That is true, but you gets what you pays for!  Lower risk means lower return, conversely higher risk means _potentially_ higher returns.  I would wait until interest rates go up before buying into GICs.  Having said that, it depends on what you want to use that money for in the short or long term.


----------



## Jaxson

heh I'm 19 and i took my dads advice he said "once you get your first tax return, open an RRSP" that was when i was thirteen Ive dropped 200$/month since then thats $14,400 +interest I'm glad Ive already saved so much money as it will come in handy since when i join the army i have a feeling my income is going to be less then what i make now, but you don't even need an RRSP, i also have a savings account with a withdrawl hold or something like that i forget the term the bank used, you can just drop a little bit of money a week in or even a large sum every month. the point is, saving is saving and every little bit helps out in the long run.


----------



## Cyr

I was wondering as a new recruit joining the armed forces, about how much money do you get paid a month at Basic in St. Jeans Quebec for the 10 weeks? I'm just trying to get an idea seeing as have got a couple of answers and was wondering which one was correct. Also how much does the CF charge you when your at basic? (Room and board).  ???


----------



## East Side Soprano

Cyr said:
			
		

> I was wondering as a new recruit joining the armed forces, about how much money do you get paid a month at Basic in St. Jeans Quebec for the 10 weeks? I'm just trying to get an idea seeing as have got a couple of answers and was wondering which one was correct. Also how much does the CF charge you when your at basic? (Room and board).  ???


I just finished my IAP at St-Jean so I could probably help you out althought officers' pay and deductions differ somewhat. My base pay was $1356/month, rations came out to $365 and single quarters to $92. With other basic deductions my net came out to about $766/month, more when I got field pay. I'm not sure of basic recruit pay but your quarters may be cheaper since you don't get individual rooms like the officers.


----------



## CallOfDuty

Don't you mean 1356$ per pay?....Instead of per month?
    An NCM recruit makes 2421$ a month in basic.
Cheers
Steve


----------



## East Side Soprano

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> Don't you mean 1356$ per pay?....Instead of per month?
> An NCM recruit makes 2421$ a month in basic.
> Cheers
> Steve


I wish, it's $1356/month. I'm ROTP so that probably explains my low pay, I know UTPNCM OCdts make $2400/month or so.


----------



## Gunner98

It is not fair to compare OCdt ROTP and NCM Basic pay.  An OCdt is also having his education/tuition and books paid for during the school year.


----------



## Scarlet

Has anyone here dealt with Edward Jones and mutual funds?

Thanks!


----------



## I_Drive_Planes

I've dealt with mutual funds a fair bit (finance is something of a hobby of mine), but not Edward Jones.

Planes


----------



## Redeye

Scarlet said:
			
		

> Has anyone here dealt with Edward Jones and mutual funds?
> 
> Thanks!



Edward Jones is a full service broker, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you have a decent sized portfolio.  If you're starting off, you're likely going to be better off with a bank's mutual funds.  The MER's are lower, there are no loads, and most of the banks have funds with some very impressive returns.  They're usually more flexible than funds sold through dealers.  I'd shop for a banker just as for anyone else though, because some of them don't know what they're talking about.

Someone mentioned ING - I've had good experiences with them as a provider of an easy to use savings account.  It's considered financially prudent to keep 3 months' salary in a liquid investment, and ING allows this while paying a better return than the next best alternatives, either conventional bank savings accounts or money market mutual funds.  They're simple to deal with.  I'd be careful with their mortgages though, I have seen disasters happen from dealing with them in mortgages, including a funding mistake that nearly cost the borrower thousands of dollars.  Realistically, their rates and terms aren't much better than what a bank provides, and they pertain to priveleges that are rarely used anyhow.

Lastly, Ethical Funds.  I wouldn't bother without doing a lot of research.  The returns on these funds aren't great, and while you might feel a little better about yourself, you're not going to change the world with them.  Go with an investment that is well managed and stands a better chance of good returns.  Their history is lacklustre, as a trip to morningstar.ca might tell you.  The reason you're not seeing direct investment in China (which we discussed at work today) is that the markets there have a lot of problems - lax accounting standards, difficulty with valuations, etc.  Investments anywhere in the world will benefit from China's staggering growth rate, because just about everyone is supplying them - with resources, technology, other capital.  The same goes for India.  A good mutual fund portfolio chosen with competent advice will get you in on it.

Since this stuff is what I do for a living, I figured I should chip in a little.


----------



## COBRA-6

Great thread!

One point on credit cards: 

The goal of course is to pay off the balance of the card each month, to avoid the insanely high interest rates. However, the pace of army life can be very hectic, with courses, exercises, deployments etc. It can be easy to forget and not pay your bill on time. To avoid damaging your credit rating, I highly recommend contacting your bank to have them set it up so that the minimum payment for each month is automatically transfered from your checking/savings account to your CC account. I learned this the hard way 

Automatic payment is available for most household bills, like auto insurance, phone, power, cable etc. It greatly simplifies your life when you're away from home allot. 

Cheers!

Mike


----------



## matty101

Hi, Thanks for all the great advice.  I have a question about debt.  I had a credit card that I failed to pay off and subsequently sent to a collector about a year ago  :-[.  I have since paid it off (1000).  My question is this, is there anything I can do to improve my credit (can't get an other card or loan) or do I have to wait it out?  ???

Thanks for the help

Matt


----------



## Gunner

http://www.professionalreferrals.ca/IMG/_article_PDF/article_693.pdf#search='how%20to%20improve%20my%20credit%20rating'



> Here are a few steps that you can take now to improve your credit score:
> 
> 1- Pay all bills on time.
> 
> 2- Lower your total credit card debt – It is a good idea to keep the ratio of outstanding balance to total available credit as low as possible. When you are close to the limit, it will look like you are desperate for money and will have a negative impact on your credit score. Therefore, start with the cards or lines of credit where you are closest to your credit limit. Keep in mind that paying off a collection account or a judgment will not remove it from your credit report. It will still stay on your report for seven years.
> 
> 3- Keep your older credit cards active and always pay your bills on time. Research shows that consumers with longer credit histories have a lower risk of default than those with shorter credit histories.
> 
> 4- Don’t open a number of new credit cards that you don’t need, just to increase your available credit. This could actually lower your credit score. Also, don’t close unused credit cards as a short-term strategy to raise your score. In fact, owing a fixed amount but having fewer open accounts may lower your score.
> 
> 5- Every time someone (other than yourself) requests a credit report from a credit bureau, an “inquiry” notation is made in your file. Too many inquiries on your credit report can negatively impact your credit score, as it can signal that you are looking for new credit. Therefore, only apply for new credit when you need it and wait before applying for more. When you are rate shopping for mortgages or loans it is better to do it in a short period of time, so that you are not penalized with multiple inquiries that relate to one credit transaction.
> 
> 6- If you have a good credit history and have managed your debts responsibly, having a variety of credit products, such as credit cards and installment loans, can raise your score. Still, it is better to apply for credit only if you need it.
> 
> 7- Carrying balances from month to month (rather than paying your credit card bills in full) will not have any impact on improving your credit score. However, lenders may be more likely to offer credit to people who carry balances because they have a history of paying interest on their accounts.
> 
> 8- If you are having trouble making ends meet and handling your debts, contact your creditors or see a legitimate credit counselor. The sooner you can get your finances under control the sooner you will be on your way to improving your credit score.
> 
> 9- Review your credit file regularly to stay informed about the details in your file.



If I can ever give one piece of advice to someone reading this tread, it would be to "take control of your money, don't let it take control of you".


----------



## Scarlet

Just to add to Gunner's latest reply, it's a good idea to get your full credit report. I just did on Friday morning. You can go to http://www.equifax.ca and request a full credit report (including your score) online. You'll need to pay $21.95 for it, but it's worth it. You can also write to Equifax and request a free credit report.

This way you can see if there's anything outstanding on your report that you need to dispute.


----------



## GonzoK83

Firstly, I have been considering resigining into the reserves. Looking at the NCM Reserve payscale pretty much has me convinced. I'm glad this string was posted.


----------



## Springroll

Scarlet said:
			
		

> it's a good idea to get your full credit report. I just did on Friday morning. You can go to http://www.equifax.ca and request a full credit report (including your score) online. You'll need to pay $21.95 for it, but it's worth it. You can also write to Equifax and request a free credit report.
> 
> This way you can see if there's anything outstanding on your report that you need to dispute.



My husband and I did that before we were to purchase our home and found out that someone elses credit had been tacked on my husband's credit record while we were outside of the country(NATO posting). We contacted Equifax, told them about it and after they checked into it, they found that the person had the same name as my husband, but a different SIN number...so it was promptly removed from his credit records. 

Also, make sure if you have a student loan, that you keep on top of it. Two months of non payment from 2001 almost prevented us from getting our mortgage in 2004. As it turned out, the student loan company I went through had not updated my file between 2001 and 2004 and it was still reading that I was still in arrears(60 days late) even though I had already made the late payments and had made payments on time from 2001-2004(thanks goodness for bank statements as my proof!). It took alot of kicking them in the butt to correct it, but it was corrected.

Keep on top of your credit!!!
Best advice ever!


----------



## Gunner98

Springroll - What is your career/uniform status these days - are in the Reg Force?  I tried to PM you but received a message saying your Inbox is full - what's up with that - popular?


----------



## ready to go

I will apologize now for what I am about to say. Sorry. I just don't understand what credit has to do with serving your country. I think it's retarded, personally. I don't have any credit cards or mortgages, but I do have a few debts from a few years ago that now will restrict me from serving my country in time of war. Money really means little to me. Honour, duty, integrity, courage and sacrifice mean everything. I was born to be a soldier and they tell me I can't be because I didn't 'keep my mind on my money and my money on my mind'. Yes I am mad at this and I know there is nothing I can do and it is a big waste of time to even complain. But I speak up when I think things are wrong and I think this is wrong. I should be judged according to my person, my character and my values...not my credit. I want to serve my country. I want to fight on the frontlines with the rest of the brave men and women who are already over there. I've been training my whole life for this. And now I learn that instead of focusing on transforming into a soldier I 'should have' been counting my pennies...
Regardless of my ranting, I am going to kick this stumbling block out of my way and keep going. As if the thing I care least about is going to stop me. :threat:


----------



## Springroll

Well, my opinion is that if you are having money problems, who says you won't go and sell some TS information for a bit of coin....it's been done before.

Gunner98, all my testing is done, just waiting for the call now


----------



## aesop081

ready to go said:
			
		

> I will apologize now for what I am about to say. Sorry. I just don't understand what credit has to do with serving your country. I think it's retarded, personally. I don't have any credit cards or mortgages, but I do have a few debts from a few years ago that now will restrict me from serving my country in time of war. Money really means little to me. Honour, duty, integrity, courage and sacrifice mean everything. I was born to be a soldier and they tell me I can't be because I didn't 'keep my mind on my money and my money on my mind'. Yes I am mad at this and I know there is nothing I can do and it is a big waste of time to even complain. But I speak up when I think things are wrong and I think this is wrong. I should be judged according to my person, my character and my values...not my credit. I want to serve my country. I want to fight on the frontlines with the rest of the brave men and women who are already over there. I've been training my whole life for this. And now I learn that instead of focusing on transforming into a soldier I 'should have' been counting my pennies...
> Regardless of my ranting, I am going to kick this stumbling block out of my way and keep going. As if the thing I care least about is going to stop me. :threat:




 :crybaby:

I'm willing to bet that the CFAT was unfair, the PT test unrealistic and the medical pointless ?

Your credit reflects on alot of things.  Credit problems say alot about how you handle resposabilities.  They say alot about your management skills. As Springroll alluded to , it also goes towards your reliability as well.  The military doesnt want to hire potential financial burdens as well, we have enough to deal with in the units as it is.  You see it as a money issue but for the military its a "character" issue.

"i was born to be a soldier"

If i had a dime for every time i have heard that  :  It makes you no more special that the next guy who didnt know about the CF until yesterday.  It doesnt exempt you from the standards we ALL have to measure up to.

Suck it up, sort your finances out........or McDonalds is always looking


----------



## ready to go

It depends on the person I guess. I don't live for money, never have, never will. I believe it corrupts a person's soul. Judging a person on physical fitness and stamina is a good judge of character: it takes discipline and perseverence to sustain a healthy, active lifestyle, especially in this day in age when everything is a 'click' away. I take 2-3 trips on my bike with a hiking bag on my back to get groceries, rain or shine, for example, as opposed to drive. Work, to me, means sweat and blood, not offices and computers. Payday is cash in hand. I guess you could say I am 'old-school'. 
Judging a person on their medical and mental condition is also a very valid factor in determining character. I wouldn't want a guy beside who is half deaf in his left ear and can't read just as much as a guy who would sell me out for any amount of $. Try and tell me people don't 'sell out'. Try and tell me people don't 'buy in'. I have been working like a dog at an oil refinery off and on for 3 years and let me tell you; money talks a hell of a lot louder than a person's 'character'. I had 2 co-workers be basically 'bought out' by the employer when they got seriously injured right beside me...all to avoid a WCB claim. They went home and had to suffer with their injuries alone so that the companys WCB premiums wouldn't go up and the 'safety record' would stay clean.
The point of this all is simple: money has nothing to do with character. About 3 weeks ago there was an emergency plant evacuation. My partner was struggling removing his chemical suit and was left behind by the crowd. I, alone, went back and helped him rip it off because I do not leave my men behind. I will put my life on the line for my comrades. How does my credit report prove otherwise? How does my credit report prove that I am a man of my word? I never made any promise or commitment regarding money. I told a friend I would help him start a construction business. I moved across the country and lived with 5 people in a 2 bedroom apartment for 8 months, working 10-14 hours a day to get his business off the ground. Never once did I turn my back on him.  He offered me 50% of the company and I told him I was fine with $15/hr because I wasn't there to start a business, I wasn't there to get rich: I was there to help a friend. I was offered a job with Citigroup in Calgary that would have made me a millionaire in less than 2 years. I chose to go back home to mom and help her build a house for free. My pay was a house to live in, a roof over my head. Right now I have no kitchen, but in 3 weeks my mom will have a brand new, fully modernized kitchen with a nice stovetop in an island, dishwasher, double sink, in-floor heating, everything. As for the McDonalds comment...I'd rather burn it to the ground than work in it. I cook my own food and work hard for the money to buy it. Thats what money is for: not to judge character.


----------



## ready to go

I am already working on the problem, by the way. I was just venting some frustration. I will be in the August BMQ come hell or high water. 

Oh and just for the sake of saying so, I wrote and managed the program that handled my friend's finances, invoicing, employees, taxes and assets. I was also his 'go-to guy', right-hand man because I was reliable, trustworthy, dedicated and knew how to take control, make things happen and get the job done.


----------



## ROTP Applicant

The actions that you've mentioned are certainly admirable and it does seem that you have a "good" character. Nonetheless, you must understand that the CF has universal standards that have to be met by all applicants in order for them to be enrolled into the Forces. The standards are fairly rigid, and if you do not meet any of them (i.e. bad credit in your case) then you're out of luck. If you're serious about getting into the CF, then I guess the only way for you to achieve you goal is to deal with the credit problem and enrol as soon as you can. Until then, do not expect the CF to tailor the recruiting standards to every applicant. Good luck.


----------



## aesop081

ready to go said:
			
		

> It depends on the person I guess. I don't live for money, never have, never will. I believe it corrupts a person's soul. Judging a person on physical fitness and stamina is a good judge of character: it takes discipline and perseverence to sustain a healthy, active lifestyle, especially in this day in age when everything is a 'click' away. I take 2-3 trips on my bike with a hiking bag on my back to get groceries, rain or shine, for example, as opposed to drive. Work, to me, means sweat and blood, not offices and computers. Payday is cash in hand. I guess you could say I am 'old-school'.
> Judging a person on their medical and mental condition is also a very valid factor in determining character. I wouldn't want a guy beside who is half deaf in his left ear and can't read just as much as a guy who would sell me out for any amount of $. Try and tell me people don't 'sell out'. Try and tell me people don't 'buy in'. I have been working like a dog at an oil refinery off and on for 3 years and let me tell you; money talks a hell of a lot louder than a person's 'character'. I had 2 co-workers be basically 'bought out' by the employer when they got seriously injured right beside me...all to avoid a WCB claim. They went home and had to suffer with their injuries alone so that the companys WCB premiums wouldn't go up and the 'safety record' would stay clean.
> The point of this all is simple: money has nothing to do with character. About 3 weeks ago there was an emergency plant evacuation. My partner was struggling removing his chemical suit and was left behind by the crowd. I, alone, went back and helped him rip it off because I do not leave my men behind. I will put my life on the line for my comrades. How does my credit report prove otherwise? How does my credit report prove that I am a man of my word? I never made any promise or commitment regarding money. I told a friend I would help him start a construction business. I moved across the country and lived with 5 people in a 2 bedroom apartment for 8 months, working 10-14 hours a day to get his business off the ground. Never once did I turn my back on him.  He offered me 50% of the company and I told him I was fine with $15/hr because I wasn't there to start a business, I wasn't there to get rich: I was there to help a friend. I was offered a job with Citigroup in Calgary that would have made me a millionaire in less than 2 years. I chose to go back home to mom and help her build a house for free. My pay was a house to live in, a roof over my head. Right now I have no kitchen, but in 3 weeks my mom will have a brand new, fully modernized kitchen with a nice stovetop in an island, dishwasher, double sink, in-floor heating, everything. As for the McDonalds comment...I'd rather burn it to the ground than work in it. I cook my own food and work hard for the money to buy it. Thats what money is for: not to judge character.



I see that you are still missing my point and focussing on the money itself.  I told you that how you manage money and credit is a reflection of who you are.  I'm not saying that it everything about who you are but its an indicator.  If you cannot stay out of financial/credit troubles, how can you be trusted to manage the CF's affairs ?  If you buy stuff on credit and dont pay the bills, what does that say about your sense of responsability ?  As well, do you honestly think that the CF wants to hire someone who has credit probelms ? these individuals turn into admin burdens for the units, miss work days to deal with those issues and generaly dont have their mind on their work.  Note that i know this by experience...i have had to deal with soldiers like that.  it happens when guys are in the forces, no need to recruit them with problems.

You are one of those who come on this site, bitching that they were turned down as if it was their god given right to be in the CF.  I have news for you, you have no RIGHT to be in the military. Your little sob story, although entertaining has nothing to do with the fact that the CF took issue with your reliability and character. Money is not a judge of character, what you do with it is.

Now as far as this thread goes, i know your type and nothing short of a full page of sympathy and total agreement with you will make you happy.  Rest assured that i will not be the one to hold you by the hand and say "it's ok....have a cookie".  Your high morals asside, you have said nothing here that warrants and ounce of my consideration.  I told you, you are nothing special, I have joined when i was 17, decided to join when i was 5, military family, never asked what the pay was and still dont.

McDonalds no good ?

Maybe a greeter at Wal-mart would be better then.....


----------



## ready to go

Now, Springroll or anybody who might know, seeing as you have a little background information, what do I have to do to get rid of this skeleton in my closet? Will working really hard this next month and giving all the income to the creditor make any difference on my actual rating? I can work and get the money, but if the debt is cleared in one month's time will it effectively matter to CF? That is my sole and primary concern. The amount is not that large, $2400. It's the fact that I completely abolished it for 4 years from my concern that got it an R9 rating. In essence I used it as a deterrent to prevent myself from getting credit and forcing myself to rely on cash and debit transactions. But thats beside the point, it has now come back to haunt me as everybody warned me it would >. 
Claiming bankrupcy would be an option that I am open to explore simply to abolish it all together, unless it conflicts with CF policy. Does it? My goal is to be able to take my tests on the 31st and have everything be cleared up for smooth sailing so I can get into the August BMQ. As long as it's legal, I will do whatever it takes to accomplish this goal.


----------



## Springroll

The best advice is if you owe any money to anyone, then call them up and make arrangements for payment, and get it in writing...and pay it all. It will still read an R9, but it will also read that you did pay it off in full...which does help. If it has been written off by the company, then there is not much you can do about that. I would strongly suggest you not go for bankrupty for an amount as small as $2400. It just isn't worth it. Make some reasonable payment arrangements with the company and go from there.

Don't bother making excuses for allowing the debt to get that far. The simple fact of the matter is that you didn't pay it, knew you owed it and chose to ignore it. Debts are like Karma and it will always get you in the butt in the end.

I am not a financial advisor, and everything I just wrote is of my own opinion. What you chose to do is completely up to you.

As for getting on August BMQ, there are a few of us who are done what we need to do and are still waiting for a call....so don't bank on any particular BMQ date. They tell you in your recruiting package not to quit your job and such since this whole process can take quite a while.


----------



## TMM

The only way to improve your credit score is to use your credit wisely. Even after paying off your debt, it will take minimum 6 months to a year to get a decent credit rating again. The only way to improve that rating is to keep a credit card, buy something with it monthly and pay it off as soon as the statement comes in.

You cannot expect to ignore a debt for 4 years and have it all better after a month. This will be with you a long time.

You seem to view a monetary debt as no big deal and as being about the money. To an employer it says that you neglected a contract/legal obligation, which is not something we want in employees.


----------



## acclenticularis

There are loads of pages about credit troubles here.  Do a search and you will find much advice.  Probably the best advice though, would be to go to the recruiting centre and have them tell you what you must do re. your credit issue to get in.  When I was a civvy, I was an accountant and some of my clients were bankruptcy cases.  Most often, it was completely unnecessary.  They looked at it as a 'fresh start' or a 'clean slate'.  Unfortunately, these days, you can go bankrupt one day and not too long after start building up credit again.  There are many companies out there that feast on those recently bankrupt.  My advice would be to go to the recruiting office, take the direction from them, and avoid bankruptcy.  It will show that you are responsible for your actions and have a plan (i.e. set up a payment schedule now with the creditors and then notify the recruiting centre).  Good luck.


----------



## acclenticularis

Oh, and about the millionaire within a couple of years bit with Citigroup.  Based on your post, you don't care about money, but, I thought you would like to know that whoever told you that is full of BS.  Dialing for dollars, especially without credentials, does not pan out that way.  Someone sounds desperate for help.


----------



## aesop081

ready to go said:
			
		

> It wasn't you Springroll that I was referring to about assuming. It was directed to aesop081.That was to you.



I didnt assume anything.  I was telling you why your credit situation affected your application.  You have a problem with that, Wal-mart is hiring.



			
				ready to go said:
			
		

> It's a soldiers right to b**ch



Since you aren't a soldier.......


----------



## ready to go

All testing done and everything is good to go. My recruiting interviewer told me, regarding the credit issue, that as long as I have made payment arrangements that the creditor agrees to in writing then it's not an issue: piece of cake . He told me as long as I get that taken care of and get a letter from the creditor to him he will ensure that the CF does their part (admin stuff) and there will be no problems. C U in August!


----------



## cftoronto

A friend of mine said he had to pay for "mess". Does the $600/paycheque include paying for mess?


----------



## George Wallace

Yes.  Mess Dues do come out of your pay.  I am sure $10+/- isn't going to bankrupt you.


----------



## a78jumper

Wow a bargain, I was paying $35 a month for a Bn Officers Mess in 1981.


----------



## Armymedic

a78jumper said:
			
		

> Wow a bargain, I was paying $35 a month for a Bn Officers Mess in 1981.



Officers  :

I pay $17 for the Sr NCOs mess, + a couple for unit funds. Mess dues are nothing...

Rations and Quarters on the other hand....much more, but it is taken out of you pay before it hits your hands.


----------



## tyciol

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> One rule when you enrol - unless you absolutely need a car don't have one.  Take the equivilent amount of payments, gas and insurance and invest it.  It's amazing the number of guys I interviewed after their first BE who had nothing to show for it.  After three years of living in the 'shacks' with no kids and no car, I had $30,000 for a down payment on a condo.  During those three years of investing I still had almost $500 a month to blow on whatever I wanted.  An incredible amount of disposible income that I wish I had now... (two cars three kids).


I like the way you think, if you can get away with not using a ca it would be great.


----------



## Lazarus**

how will I know that the financial adviser wont try to screw me over?
I'm not very proficient in financial matters, especially when they use their terms like fiscal year, and so on and so forth


----------



## BernDawg

Go with SISIP on base.  They're on salary.


----------



## Lazarus**

BernDawg said:
			
		

> Go with SISIP on base.



I checked out their website and it looks like they have their sh*t together  ;D
that puts my mind at ease.


----------



## megany

Lazarus** said:
			
		

> how will I know that the financial adviser wont try to screw me over?
> I'm not very proficient in financial matters, especially when they use their terms like fiscal year, and so on and so forth



I would also take the opportunity to read up on basic investing - you can get decent money management books from any public library or from Chapters.  Even something like the Wealthy Barber will help you learn how to manage your funds.  It's important to note that you can't just rely on a financial advisor (whether on salary or not) because in the end it's YOUR money and your hard work that they're going to be taking care of.  Even if you have a rough idea of finance it will help...


----------



## Brett2692

how much is earned in a day of reserving?


----------



## aesop081

Brett2692 said:
			
		

> how much is earned in a day of reserving?



Ever think of looking online ?

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/Reserve_Force_Officer_07_e.pdf     

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/Reserve_Force_NCM_07_e.pdf


----------



## jacksparrow

Thanks to the author of this thread, good advice and I plan to follow this once I get to basic next month


----------



## Celticgirl

I've been looking at the pay scales for reg force officers, and I can't find the information re: how much you receive as an Officer Cadet if you are DEO. The link for Regular Force Officer Rates on the recruiting site only lists A and B pay categories for Officer Cadets, but DEO officers are category C.  ???


----------



## George Wallace

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I've been looking at the pay scales for reg force officers, and I can't find the information re: how much you receive as an Officer Cadet if you are DEO. The link for Regular Force Officer Rates on the recruiting site only lists A and B pay categories for Officer Cadets, but DEO officers are category C.  ???



There are no DEO OCdts.  They are 2LTs.


----------



## Adamant

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There are no DEO OCdts.  They are 2LTs.



Incorrect, we are OCdt's during BOTC and receive our comission at the end of the course.

That being said we are paid as 2Lt during that time.

Edit to add qualifying information.


----------



## Celticgirl

Adamant said:
			
		

> That being said we are paid as 2Lt during that time.



Really? Wow. Thanks for the info!


----------



## apache2001

Adamant said:
			
		

> Incorrect, we are OCdt's during BOTC and receive our comission at the end of the course.
> 
> That being said we are paid as 2Lt during that time.
> 
> Edit to add qualifying information.



What do you mean incorrect?  It is exactly right. On the pay scale you can't see DEO OCdts pay.  However as a DEO you will be on a 2Lt pay during BMOQ and you are an OCdt until commissioned 2Lt.


----------



## aesop081

apache2001 said:
			
		

> It means your entry is a DEO and *your rank is an OCdt * but you will be paid as a 2Lt.


----------



## apache2001

Thanks CDN Aviator. I'm wrong regarding OCdt as a rank.


----------



## Adamant

apache2001]What do you mean incorrect?  It is exactly right. On the pay scale you can't see DEO OCdts pay.  However as a DEO you will be on a 2Lt pay during BMOQ and you are an OCdt until commissioned 2Lt[/quote]


[quote author=apache2001 said:
			
		

> Thanks CDN Aviator. I'm wrong regarding OCdt as a rank.



I was going to reply to your earlier comment until I saw CDN Aviator did, and I'm not trying to speak for him at all, and yes you are right in that OCdt is not technically a rank, it's an appointment.

That being said what I took his reply to mean was that GW said there are no DEO OCdts.  While this is true in the Pay World, it is not true real world.  During BOTC most candidates are OCdt's or NCdt's regardless of entry plan.   CFR and other notable exceptions sometimes have Lt or higher (When I was on SLT there was a surgeon doing BOTC with the cadidate rank of Maj there)


----------



## apache2001

Thanks  All good Adamant.


----------



## Barts

Adamant said:
			
		

> ....OCdt is not technically a rank, it's an appointment...



Incorrect, according to the QR&O and National Defence Act


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Barts said:
			
		

> Incorrect, according to the QR&O and National Defence Act



I think you missed the target with your links.  Try again please.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Different MOCs and other factors affect the rank/pay you have during BMOQ as a DEO.  I know of a Legal O who went thru the whole thing wearing Lt(N) rank and earned the pay the whole time.  Others were paid as DEO 2Lt, but wore the rank of OCdt until after grad parade, at which time they were commissioned Lt and received backpay to the end of their LWOP as DEO Lt IPC 5.

It can be very trade specific; aside from the Lt(N) Legal O, the only other person I knew of on one course in particular was a CFR type from the Inf who was a Lt.  Regardless, all had to pass the course to the same standard and none were foolish enough to "pull rank" on the Course Staff.

Your messages will contain all the applic info regarding pay, and DEO Officers have many variables that affect their pay.  Most received their Commission Scrolls at the Mega before being "transfered" to CFLS Det SJ, and were newly-minted 2Lts the day after grad from BMOQ.  Most realized that they had achieved a personal goal but...in the eyes of the CF, were untrained Junior Officers with many steps to go.


----------



## apache2001

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Different MOCs and other factors affect the rank/pay you have during BMOQ as a DEO.  I know of a Legal O who went thru the whole thing wearing Lt(N) rank and earned the pay the whole time.  Others were paid as DEO 2Lt, but wore the rank of OCdt until after grad parade, at which time they were commissioned Lt and received backpay to the end of their LWOP as DEO Lt IPC 5.
> 
> It can be very trade specific; aside from the Lt(N) Legal O, the only other person I knew of on one course in particular was a CFR type from the Inf who was a Lt.  Regardless, all had to pass the course to the same standard and none were foolish enough to "pull rank" on the Course Staff.
> 
> Your messages will contain all the applic info regarding pay, and DEO Officers have many variables that affect their pay.  Most received their Commission Scrolls at the Mega before being "transfered" to CFLS Det SJ, and were newly-minted 2Lts the day after grad from BMOQ.  Most realized that they had achieved a personal goal but...in the eyes of the CF, were untrained Junior Officers with many steps to go.



Well said.


----------



## Celticgirl

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Different MOCs and other factors affect the rank/pay you have during BMOQ as a DEO.  I know of a Legal O who went thru the whole thing wearing Lt(N) rank and earned the pay the whole time.  Others were paid as DEO 2Lt, but wore the rank of OCdt until after grad parade, at which time they were commissioned Lt and received backpay to the end of their LWOP as DEO Lt IPC 5.



I was told today that after I was enrolled (this coming December), I would be a 2Lt. During BMOQ, I would "wear" the rank of OCdt. until graduation, but would still be a 2Lt. and would receive 2Lt. pay the whole time. Confusing? Oh yeah!   ^-^


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> I was told today that after I was enrolled (this coming December), I would be a 2Lt. During BMOQ, I would "wear" the rank of OCdt. until graduation, but would still be a 2Lt. and would receive 2Lt. pay the whole time. Confusing? Oh yeah!   ^-^



Well, if *I* were you, I'd wait and see what your actual message says in Dec.  Thats the only time you'll really know for sure.   ;D

FWIW, if you are actually a 2Lt on enrolment, then you should be getting your commission scroll at the same time...which isn't likely to happen because you aren't BMOQ qualified.  You may get 2Lt pay because you are DEO but if you are wearing the rank of OCdt...then you're an OCdt.  But like I said..the message will say it all


----------



## derael

The way it *WAS* last year on my offer was that you would be paid as OCdt. and then backpaid as a 2Lt. for time served once you received your commission. Same was true when I was to be promoted to Lt. after phase 4 where I would be back paid for that period of time as if I had been Lt. (this was a CEOTP, Infantry Officer offer)

This was my offer as it was explained to me by the recruiting office however this is over a year ago and as you know things change quickly! I'm not sure what yours will look like but your CFRC should be able to explain your offer to you... (once you receive it of course)


----------



## Celticgirl

derael said:
			
		

> The way it *WAS* last year on my offer was that you would be paid as OCdt. and then backpaid as a 2Lt. for time served once you received your commission. Same was true when I was to be promoted to Lt. after phase 4 where I would be back paid for that period of time as if I had been Lt. (this was a CEOTP, Infantry Officer offer)
> 
> This was my offer as it was explained to me by the recruiting office however this is over a year ago and as you know things change quickly! I'm not sure what yours will look like but your CFRC should be able to explain your offer to you... (once you receive it of course)



It has changed, apparently. The MCpl told me that is the way that it was, but that I would not receive 'back pay' - I'd be paid as a 2Lt. right from the beginning. 

Edited to add: I did receive my offer. 



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Well, if *I* were you, I'd wait and see what your actual message says in Dec.  Thats the only time you'll really know for sure.   ;D
> 
> FWIW, if you are actually a 2Lt on enrolment, then you should be getting your commission scroll at the same time...which isn't likely to happen because you aren't BMOQ qualified.  You may get 2Lt pay because you are DEO but if you are wearing the rank of OCdt...then you're an OCdt.  But like I said..the message will say it all



It really doesn't matter to me either way about the rank. I figure the only difference is in the pay, and I'm more than happy to receive 2Lt pay. "Call me what you want, just don't call me late for dinner." ;D


*_Milnet.ca staff edit for site policy_*


----------



## derael

Good to hear; thats a much better way to receive your pay...in my opinion at least.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> It has changed, apparently. The MCpl told me that is the way that it was, but that I would not receive 'back pay' - I'd be paid as a 2Lt. right from the beginning.
> 
> Edited to add: I did receive my offer.
> 
> It really doesn't matter to me either way about the rank. I figure the only difference is in the pay, and I'm more than happy to receive 2Lt pay. "Call me what you want, just don't call me late for dinner." ;D



Bingo.  I mentioned in this or another thread, I know of one course a Lt(N) Legal O went thru with Lt(N) rank and pay...he received the same....training  ;D as the rest of the lot!  He had considerable experience as a lawyer though, so that must have had some bearing on it.


----------



## Marshall

Hello,

I've always wondered this but did not bother asking.
On the payroll sheets, there is BASIC - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 and so on..

I know that the numbers mean specialized pay correct? I am just wondering how someone acquires these pays instead of Basic, Is it your Trade? Your Location? Is there a site/page/document that has the information on this?

Thank you.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Basic, 1-4 are IPCs (Incentive Pay Catagories).  Think of them as annual increases in your pay for time in rank.

As for Specialist Pay, that is dependent on your MOC.  Some get it, some don't.

Your IPC goes up automatically.  If you get promoted to Cpl, and are in a Standard pay group MOC (say, Clerk) the first year in rank of Cpl you will be paid Cpl Basic (standard).  A year later, you will move up to Cpl IPC 1 (standard)...etc etc.


----------



## PMedMoe

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Basic, 1-4 are IPCs (Incentive Pay Catagories).  Think of them as annual increases in your pay for time in rank.
> 
> Your IPC goes up automatically.  If you get promoted to Cpl, and are in a Standard pay group MOC (say, Clerk) the first year in rank of Cpl you will be paid Cpl Basic (standard).  A year later, you will move up to Cpl IPC 1 (standard)...etc etc.



At the MCpl rank, you will not start at Basic but at whatever IPC you were at as a Cpl.  E.g.  A Cpl IPC 2 promoted to MCpl will receive MCpl IPC 2 pay.  Really sucks when you get promoted at IPC 4.  :-\


----------



## Celticgirl

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Basic, 1-4 are IPCs (Incentive Pay Catagories).  Think of them as annual increases in your pay for time in rank.



This is just for NCMs, though, right? Our navy clerk friend  ;D told me the IPCs for Officers go from 1-10.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> This is just for NCMs, though, right? Our navy clerk friend  ;D told me the IPCs for Officers go from 1-10.



If you examine the pay rate tables, you will see how many incentive pay levels there are for each rank:

http://army.ca/forums/threads/16015.0.html

April 2008 Pay Rates (pdf)


----------



## Celticgirl

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> If you examine the pay rate tables, you will see how many incentive pay levels there are for each rank:
> 
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/16015.0.html



Thanks, Mike. It seems entry plan, rank, and in some cases, trade also play a role in how many IPCs there are. Looking at reg force officer pay charts (that one is a bit outdated, so I also checked the most recent one I have saved: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/Reg_Force_Officers_08_e.pdf), there is a considerable variation.


----------



## Marshall

So just to clarify, sorry:

Most would start at Basic (im going officer) so I would get Basic pay as 2nd Lut, and depending on how many years I am as 2nd Lut my Pay increment rises? Then when the person is promoted they raise and return to basic? Also, what are the Pay Levels? (A,B,C,D,E). Sorry for the questions heh, just not very explained on the spreadsheet. 

This is the page I was referring to by the way: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pdf/Reg_Force_Officers_08_e.pdf



			
				Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> If you examine the pay rate tables, you will see how many incentive pay levels there are for each rank:
> 
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/16015.0.html
> 
> April 2008 Pay Rates (pdf)



^ Although I did notice that the A,B,C,D,E stuff is removed in this one. :/


----------



## Michael OLeary

Yes, with each promotion you return to the Basic level for your new rank and receive IPC increases after each year of service in that rank.

Here are the Pay Levels explained (from the same linked document):

                                  PAY LEVEL
A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (former CBI 204.212)


----------



## HItorMiss

Marshall,

The proper abreviaion is 2LT, and it not pronouced that way (calling it 2LT is American) It's would be spoked 2nd Le_*f *_tenant


----------



## Marshall

Thanks for the info on the pay, that clears it up. I thought for awhile the higher numbers were for the sneaky special ops..  :blotto: joking. 


+ thanks Bullet. I have a slightly hard time (although much better since I have been interested in CF) with some of the ranks and how you spell them and say them different, living around a small town with no Military involvement does not help. But I am trying. heh.


----------



## HItorMiss

No worries Marshall I was jumping on you just wanted to lend a hand in getting right, it's the little things and the mastering of the basics which makes the differeince between just a soldier and an Excellent soldier. And my 9er calls it 2LT (the Aerican way) just to drive me!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> At the MCpl rank, you will not start at Basic but at whatever IPC you were at as a Cpl.  E.g.  A Cpl IPC 2 promoted to MCpl will receive MCpl IPC 2 pay.  Really sucks when you get promoted at IPC 4.  :-\



Yes and no.  MCpl is an appoinment vice a rank, hence why you keep your IPC.     (But yes, you do keep your IPC upon appointment to MCpl)

On the pay guide, MCpl is listed as Corporal 5B.

(Oddly enough, when you are taught the CF Rank structure though, MCpl is taught as a rank in the CF not an appointment :blotto


----------



## Marshall

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> No worries Marshall I was jumping on you just wanted to lend a hand in getting right, it's the little things and the mastering of the basics which makes the differeince between just a soldier and an Excellent soldier. And my 9er calls it 2LT (the Aerican way) just to drive me!



Any help is good help. I am always open to information if it betters my career chances


----------



## PMedMoe

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Yes and no.  MCpl is an appoinment vice a rank, hence why you keep your IPC.



D'oh!


----------



## mp_ada

Just a small peice of advice....  sometimes investment brokers have house products (mutual funds that are in the same family as the firm) that you can invest in for free.  Free is never a bad thing.


----------



## Redeye

Wrong.  Nothing is free.  Mutual funds all have management fees and expenses.  I can't think of any examples that fit what you're describing, but if you want to tell me who told you this I'd be interested to know - it's borderline unethical.  Proprietary products may also tie you to the firm which means if you wind up unhappy with your advisor it's a lot harder (and potentially more expensive!) to leave.



			
				ada said:
			
		

> Just a small peice of advice....  sometimes investment brokers have house products (mutual funds that are in the same family as the firm) that you can invest in for free.  Free is never a bad thing.


----------



## mp_ada

Sorry, sorry!! i should watch my wording, imeant that the account fee is waived, for ex rsp yearly fee, if you are investing in their 'house' funds.  I think i'll stick to lurking


----------



## Redeye

Anyone who would charge account fees when you're buying mutual funds of any description is basically screwing you in the first place.



			
				ada said:
			
		

> Sorry, sorry!! i should watch my wording, imeant that the account fee is waived, for ex rsp yearly fee, if you are investing in their 'house' funds.  I think i'll stick to lurking


----------



## mp_ada

as far as I'm aware, you get charged a yearly admin fee for an RSP whether its a bank or a brokerage....;


----------



## Redeye

Banks do not charge for RRSP accounts, though unless you have a good sized balance they'll only sell you their own funds if you go the mutual fund route.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, some of the best fund companies in Canada are bank-run - RBC and TD's fund offerings in particular are excellent.  Discount brokerages charge for RRSPs, but the fee is usually waived if you maintain a minimum balance or make a certain number of commissionable trades a year in them - but that's because there's the option to hold a lot of different assets which don't necessarily pay anything to the broker, and they have to make money somehow off of all the little accounts they have to service.



			
				ada said:
			
		

> as far as I'm aware, you get charged a yearly admin fee for an RSP whether its a bank or a brokerage....;


----------



## Greymatters

Redeye said:
			
		

> ...but the fee is usually waived if you maintain a minimum balance or make a certain number of commissionable trades a year in them...



Getting fees waived may be harder to accomplish in the future, based on the current situation...


----------



## Redeye

On discount brokerage accounts not likely - it's usually built right into the account agreements.  As for banking fees, everywhere is being a little tighter but in the last couple of years I think pretty much all the majors have improved on ways to get around most of their fees by having a lot of business with them, and that probably won't change.  The business is as competitive as ever, even more so potentially.



			
				Greymatters said:
			
		

> Getting fees waived may be harder to accomplish in the future, based on the current situation...


----------



## Jadzia

Some things you may want to look into...  

The following is only my opinion, so takes what you want of it.  However, I am working in the pension plan field (actuary), so I have some knowledge about investment, pensions, and other savings.

CF and the new tax-free saving account (TFSA).

As you may be aware, it is now possible to invest up to 5000$ a year in a TFSA.  Any investment return on that fund is tax free.

Whether it's more interesting than a RRSP or not depends on many factors, but consider this:

In the military, you're eligible to your pension after 20 years of service, unreduced after 25 (I'm talking about the Regular Forces, since I don't know the rules for the Reserve)

So if you plan to go career, but retiring early, it might be better for you to invest in TFSA now, and save your RRSP room for later.

Here's my thinking :

In the early years, your salary (hence taxes) is lower.  Impact of RRSP isn't as big as if you had a huge salary.

You might retire very young like around 50.  If you retire, it is better for you to take the pension immediately EVEN if you plan to work elsewhere.

Depending of your trade, you would probably have the same salary (or better) in the private.  Of course, any other benefits than salary is usually way better in the Forces than elsewhere (pension plan included).  My point is that if you work elsewhere, you won't need the pension you get.

However, salary (from other source) + pension = higher taxes

So at this moment, investing in RRSP would be VERY interesting to save taxes in those year.   If you've invested in RRSP all your career, you won't have much room (I won't put numbers here, but still).  If you've always invested in CELI, you'll have a lot of room in your RRSP (it is cumulative).  

It COULD be a way to maximize your earnings / minimize taxes over your overall career.  It is worth to think about it !!!


----------



## 4Feathers

I am so bad with numbers unless it's just a week to week thing, I would just spend a few bucks and hire a professional to manage for you, or in a lot of our cases, just give it all to the "ex" wife.


----------



## firm_believer

Exactly - I'd personally hire a "money manager" and save a ton in the long-run. I'm half-tempted to not even look that far down the road, but as someone with no kids who is divorced with NOTHING owing to anyone, I think I can have the cake and eat it too, so to speak. 

Different strokes...


----------



## tobin84

I'm applying soon to join the military, as a reg ncm and I'm concerned with the pay. I'm aware of the monthly salary given, I was just wondering what recruits come out with after the deductions for living costs (housing, meals) have been taken from your pay.

The pay seems good, just concerned about what money I'll have left over so I can organize what money I will have for bills and student loan debts, and money for my family.

Any approx amount would be great to know, I want to make sure that I wont be missing any payments.

Thanks!


----------



## Cooldevil789

tobin84 said:
			
		

> I'm applying soon to join the military, as a reg ncm and I'm concerned with the pay. I'm aware of the monthly salary given, I was just wondering what recruits come out with after the deductions for living costs (housing, meals) have been taken from your pay.
> 
> The pay seems good, just concerned about what money I'll have left over so I can organize what money I will have for bills and student loan debts, and money for my family.
> 
> Any approx amount would be great to know, I want to make sure that I wont be missing any payments.
> 
> Thanks!



I am in the exactly same position. I am still a young gaffer(21) and I am enlisting as we speak. I have seen the salaries, and also wonder what I am looking to earn for investments, bills and thrills. Please any advice or information a regular NCM can give us would be great.


----------



## aesop081

Expect to lose between 30-40% for taxes, EI, CPP, CFSA, etc, etc,etc...


----------



## RobinsonM

I was wondering what the total taxes are on a privates salary, I know the orught pay is 30000 annually but how much of that goes to taxes and any other fee's, Other than rent ETC.

As well how much do you make in Basic in a month, Becuase I know recruit pay is lower but how much?

Help appreciated


----------



## JBoyd

A recruit actually makes the same amount as a Pte, which is $2624/month. 2009 Pay scale NCM regular force http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp

This amounts to $31,488 annually before taxes. 

2009 federal tax rate for income up to $40,726 is 15% (http://www.revenu.gouv.qc.ca/eng/particulier/impots/taux.asp)
If your BMQ is in Quebec and you are taxed by their provincial rate then for 2009 their income tax rate for income up to $38,385 is %16 (http://www.revenu.gouv.qc.ca/eng/particulier/impots/taux.asp)

A rough estimate of income tax taken is $9,761.28 leaving you with $21,726.79 annually (1810.57/month). 

Keep in mind this does not include amounts deducted for CPP/QPP, EI, and CF Pension, nor does it include possible separation expense and/or PLD that you could earn during BMQ.


----------



## goldenhamster

JBoyd said:
			
		

> A recruit actually makes the same amount as a Pte, which is $2624/month. 2009 Pay scale NCM regular force http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/rfncmr-mrfr-eng.asp
> 
> This amounts to $31,488 annually before taxes.
> 
> 2009 federal tax rate for income up to $40,726 is 15% (http://www.revenu.gouv.qc.ca/eng/particulier/impots/taux.asp)
> If your BMQ is in Quebec and you are taxed by their provincial rate then for 2009 their income tax rate for income up to $38,385 is %16 (http://www.revenu.gouv.qc.ca/eng/particulier/impots/taux.asp)
> 
> A rough estimate of income tax taken is $9,761.28 leaving you with $21,726.79 annually (1810.57/month).
> 
> Keep in mind this does not include amounts deducted for CPP/QPP, EI, and CF Pension, nor does it include possible separation expense and/or PLD that you could earn during BMQ.




I think the tax rate is not applied straightforwardly like that.  I mean, $9,761.28 tax for $31,488 annual income is inaccurate.  Remember that some of the income is categorized as non-taxable.  For example, we are entitled to deduct the basic personal amount, which is about $10,000 this year.  So, perhaps only $ 21,000 roughly will be taxed.   
 :2c: Maybe you folks want to try simulation with tax software (UFILE is good for that) and try simply put some numbers there and figure out which numbers comes from where.  I found that helpful at least to understand the tax's mumble jumble


----------



## Maelstrom

The numbers seem a bit off...a tax 15% of $31488 would be $4723.2 

Giving you an annual amount of $26764.8 before other deductions. 

Therefore giving a rough estimate of $2230.4 monthly with only tax taken...


----------



## Monsoon

The Ernst & Young tax calculator (which takes all the exemptions into account), says that the take-home on $40,726 is $32,398 in Quebec: http://www.ey.com/CA/en/Services/Tax/Tax-Calculators-2009-Personal-Tax


----------



## Zman

HELLO ALL....

I'M LOOKING FOR SOME INFORMATION, REAL INFO NOT THAT BASKET OF DREAMS RECURITERS SELL YOU.
I AM CURRENTLY WORKING TOWARDS A CAREER IN LAW ENFORCEMENT. HOWEVER I FIND MYSELF WANTING TO DO SOMETHING MORE. MY GRANDFATHER WAS A CAPTAIN IN THE ROAYL CANDIAN AIR FORCE, I FIND MY SELF CONSIDERING A CAREER AS A MILITARY POLICE OFFICER, EVENTUALLY ENDING IN A CIVI FORCE. HOWEVER I PLAN (IF I JOIN) TO STAY FOR SOME TIME. MY QUESTIONS ARE; WHAT IS THE BASE FOR MP, AND WHAT ARE THE BENEFITS AND DISADVANTAGES. CAN I ENTER OR STUDY ANOTHER SPEC TRADE ON THE SIDE? AS FOR LEAVING MP TO JOIN A CIVI FORCES IS THIS A QUICK OR DELAYED PROCESS?

FINALLY ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOTE, IF I WANTED TO PURSUE AVIATION WHAT HAS TO BE DONE?

THANKS FOR THE INFO :blotto:


----------



## SupersonicMax

About paying off your mortgage faster....

I would personally discourage it.  Use the money and invest it.  Especially during times like now.  Chances are you will make more interest than what you would save on mortgage interest.  If your RRSPs are not maxed out, invest in them, giving you twice the advantage (more interest and tax deductions).   My mutual funds on average make 10% a year.  I pay 3% interest on my mortgage.  That's a 7% difference, plus tax deductions at the end of the year.


----------



## ballz

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> About paying off your mortgage faster....
> 
> I would personally discourage it.  Use the money and invest it.  Especially during times like now.  Chances are you will make more interest than what you would save on mortgage interest.  If your RRSPs are not maxed out, invest in them, giving you twice the advantage (more interest and tax deductions).   My mutual funds on average make 10% a year.  I pay 3% interest on my mortgage.  That's a 7% difference, plus tax deductions at the end of the year.



I would say you're looking at it a lot simpler than it is. I don't understand for one where you are getting 7% from, from what I can tell it's a 13% difference [+10 - (-3)]. Your annual interest rate and the effective annual interest rate are two different things as well. The housing market growth, a house that you don't have to pay capital gains on if (when) you sell it, the taxes you will be paying when you eventually cash those other investments, liquidity preference, etc. It's a debated topic in finance right now whether mortgaging a house is in fact a good long-term investment. Peter Schiff is vehemontly opposed to it and I'm starting to side with him. 

If you're going to go that route though, you're better off not mortgaging a house period and renting instead, and taking the difference between a mortgage payment and a rent payment and investing it (or other things) as well.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned above is payment frequency. I'm sure most of you know but if it hasn't been considered, the more frequent your payments the better... Semi-monthly payments of $x will pay off a mortgage years faster than monthly payments of $2x. If you can do weekly payments, even better. Same amount of money being paid, all it changes is the amount of interest that gets compounded.



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> If your guy had to pay for the stuff lost during his "travels," I would hope that it was because he never should have been "traveling" with the stuff in the first place.



His flights from his unit to Gagetown for the course to be specific... for which he was authorized to take his kit via the commercial flights instead of CMTT... I don't know why but almost everyone from the Reserve units did that.


----------



## George Wallace

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> About paying off your mortgage faster....
> 
> I would personally discourage it.  Use the money and invest it.  Especially during times like now.  Chances are you will make more interest than what you would save on mortgage interest.  If your RRSPs are not maxed out, invest in them, giving you twice the advantage (more interest and tax deductions).   My mutual funds on average make 10% a year.  I pay 3% interest on my mortgage.  That's a 7% difference, plus tax deductions at the end of the year.



 ???

Are you nuts?  I wholeheartedly disagree with this advice.  Pay off your mortgage as soon as you can.  You save paying the Bank twice to three times what your purchase price was in Mortgage fees and interest.  I paid weekly and knew that a certain amount was taken out of my account every week and didn't have to try to remember if it was this week or next that the bank was taking money out.  Weekly or bi-weekly payments are the same, and in the end of a year you will have made thirteen months worth of payments instead of twelve, thus knocking the amount of years left in your mortgage down.  If you can afford to make "Anniversary Payments", do so.  That will also cut down greatly on the amount of interest you are paying and the number of years you will have to pay.  If you can get rid of your mortgage, then you will have even more to put into your investments.  If you can get rid of your mortgage, and then be able to pay off your car loan, and then pay off any other debts, and max out your SRSP, you will have even more spare cash to make your investments.

Mortgages, rent and car payments only puts your money in other people’s pockets.  Why pay rent, in effect paying off someone else's mortgage, when you can invest in your own property?  Property is just as big an investment as stocks, GICs, Bonds, etc.


----------



## Redeye

Actually, he's not nuts.  Putting on my financial planner hat, even fairly conservative investment portfolios will still bring better returns than the interest rate on a mortgage.  It usually makes more sense to save aggressively in an RRSP and not rush to pay down mortgages.  I usually have my clients do just that - then take the tax refund the RRSP generates and use that as a lump sum payment to get the mortgage down. That way you're still a bit ahead on the mortgage, but more importantly, you have a good investment compounding tax-free for a lot longer.

I see far too many people who've gotten tunnel vision on paying their mortgage down and don't have much in the way of savings for retirement as a result.  As such, they've then paid more income tax than they had to all along, and as an added "bonus", they have to either downsize or borrow against the home to fund their retirement anyhow.  

Property is a good investment in certain cases - if someone's paying you rent on it.  Not so much if you're just living in it.  Real estate value growth rates over time are nowhere near as good as other options, and beyond that, they're not liquid which leaves you with the problem described above.

Best thing to do overall - save aggressively in an RRSP, and target debts one at a time, that is to say, pay what's required on all of them, but pick one to direct any additional payments to (better than a "shotgun" approach).  When you beat down that debt, shift all the payments being made on it to the next target, and so on, until they're gone.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Are you nuts?  I wholeheartedly disagree with this advice.  Pay off your mortgage as soon as you can.  You save paying the Bank twice to three times what your purchase price was in Mortgage fees and interest.  I paid weekly and knew that a certain amount was taken out of my account every week and didn't have to try to remember if it was this week or next that the bank was taking money out.  Weekly or bi-weekly payments are the same, and in the end of a year you will have made thirteen months worth of payments instead of twelve, thus knocking the amount of years left in your mortgage down.  If you can afford to make "Anniversary Payments", do so.  That will also cut down greatly on the amount of interest you are paying and the number of years you will have to pay.  If you can get rid of your mortgage, then you will have even more to put into your investments.  If you can get rid of your mortgage, and then be able to pay off your car loan, and then pay off any other debts, and max out your SRSP, you will have even more spare cash to make your investments.
> 
> Mortgages, rent and car payments only puts your money in other people’s pockets.  Why pay rent, in effect paying off someone else's mortgage, when you can invest in your own property?  Property is just as big an investment as stocks, GICs, Bonds, etc.


----------



## George Wallace

Redeye said:
			
		

> Actually, he's not nuts.  Putting on my financial planner hat, even fairly conservative investment portfolios will still bring better returns than the interest rate on a mortgage.



So?  You are advising us to pay up to three times our purchase price on a home and make payments to investments instead?  I ask, as I maxed out my SRSP every year, paid off my Credit Card monthly, paid off my auto ASAP, and paid my mortgage weekly, with Anniversary payments when I could afford the payments.  I even had "fun money" that I could afford to put into the Markets (Mostly unsuccessfully).  Now I know owning a house short term can be a risk, but if one remembers "Location, Location, Location" they should in most cases come out ahead.   In the end, I am mortgage free.

What did I learn in my Service?  Don't be like the Sergeant Majors who lived in PMQs, owned a big car, a boat, a Ski Doo and all kinds of other "toys".  When they reached retirement age, they had no home, had to sell their "toys" and landed up working as cleaners in the shacks.   A young Service Member should start planning now for their retirement.  We can all benefit now from SRSPs which those old Sergeant Majors never had the opportunity to.  We also have many Financial Advisors available to us these days to give us those informed decisions that we can make.  Depending on how frugal you want to live is up to you.  We all have many options to how we reach our goals, and not all our goals will be the same.  

When we first got introduced to the SRSP, we were told how we could have a RSP worth a million dollars when we retired after twenty years.  Nice dream to look forward to, but it never happened.  What did happen is we are left well better off than those who never planned for their retirement and hopefully be debt free able to enjoy the pleasures we dreamt of.

Now we have a whole topic debating this:  Entering the CF and YOUR Money.... 

Unlike some here, I am not a Financial Advisor, and I have made many mistakes in my finances over the years.  I was not lucky enough to have the access or opportunity to seek the advice of people like Redeye who have the knowledge to make well educated financial choices.  I did have to bite the bullet at times and live rather frugally.  I just did not like to carry any debt and now live, not in luxury, but comfortably.  


(Merged with "Entering the CF and YOUR Money.... ")


----------



## SupersonicMax

ballz said:
			
		

> Your annual interest rate and the effective annual interest rate are two different things as well.



I know that...  



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> The housing market growth



The value of your house will follow the market, regardless of how fast or slow you pay your mortgage down.  Yes, you will have more equity at one point in time, however at the end of your amortization, you will have the exact same equity in your pockets paying it fast or slow, which is the value of the house.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> a house that you don't have to pay capital gains on if (when) you sell it, the taxes you will be paying when you eventually cash those other investments



You get a tax return from the government the year you invest into RRSPs and have to pay back the year you take it back.  Chances are you will have to pay less tax on the latter, thus a tax saving.  Also, you can re-invest the tax return you get from investing in RRSPs (instead of buying this new shiny boat).  You cannot reinvest the equity on your home unless you re-mortgage it.

Also, think about TFSAs.  You don't pay taxes on capital gains.  Up to 5K a year since 2009.



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> If you're going to go that route though, you're better off not mortgaging a house period and renting instead, and taking the difference between a mortgage payment and a rent payment and investing it (or other things) as well.



Ideally you want to be able to have a house for equity, and max out your RRSPs and TFSAs every year.  If you base the purchase price of your house on how much you can afford with investing in RRSPs and TFSAs you'll do well...



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> If you can do weekly payments, even better. Same amount of money being paid, all it changes is the amount of interest that gets compounded.



Actually, you give the bank 4 more weekly payments a year.  You do NOT pay the same as monthly payments.

George:  Let's do some math.  

Let's say you buy your house at 25, with a 35 year amortization at 3%.  The house cost 250 000$.  The mortgage is 95% of the value of the house, so 237 500$.  Your mortgage payments are 455$ bi-monthly.  The interest for the amortization period is 145 000$.  You make 80 000$ a year.  After tax, let's make it simple, 50 000$.  After everything is paid for, you have 400$ extra a month.  You decide to pay down the mortgage faster and every month, religiously, you put that 400$ towards your mortgage.  Your mortgage is paid off in 20 years and you save 77 000$ in interest.

Now, let's invest this 400$ a month in a 6% interest rate Mutual Fund( RRSPs).   Every year, you re- invest the tax return it generates (around  2000$, let's approximate this to 160$ a month).  After 20 years, you will have made 125 000$ in interest, that's almost 50 000$ more than paying off your mortgage faster (which is 66% more). Total, you saved 260 000$.  Now the fun REALLY starts.  

In the first scenario, you do not have any investment yet.  Nil.  You need to start from scratch.  So, you start.  Puting this 1310$ a month aside in a mutual Fund at 6%.  For the next 15 years.  After 35 years from year 0, you have a 250 000$ house and 383 000$ in investments for a rought net worth of 633 000$.

Now, in the second scenario, you keep investing away in your mutual fund until the end of the amortization period on your house (35 years).  Your 250 000$ house is now paid off and you have 573 000$ for a rought net worth of 823 000$.  32% more than if you paid off your house faster.  

Even more fun now.  Both are 50 by this time and want to retire at 65.  

In the both scenario, you invest the 1310$ a month at 6%.  By the time they are 65, the person in scenario 1 has 608 00$ and a 250 000$ house for 858 000$.  The person in scenario 2 has 1173000 and a 250 000$ house for 1423000$ almost double the amount.  

Interest speak in the long term.  If your loan interest rate is higher than what you can invest, pay down your loan before you invest.  If your investement can generate more interest than what you pay on your loan, invest instead of paying down you debt faster.  

Have you heard of RRSP-loans?  It's basically a low interest loan to buy into RRSPs that will generate more interest.  If your RRSPs are not maxed out I suggest you do that (obviously carefully choosing the funds in which you will invest).


----------



## Michael OLeary

And, for added fun and reality, what's the effect of a divorce at age 40 in each case?    >


----------



## Redeye

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So?  You are advising us to pay up to three times our purchase price on a home and make payments to investments instead?  I ask, as I maxed out my SRSP every year, paid off my Credit Card monthly, paid off my auto ASAP, and paid my mortgage weekly, with Anniversary payments when I could afford the payments.  I even had "fun money" that I could afford to put into the Markets (Mostly unsuccessfully).  Now I know owning a house short term can be a risk, but if one remembers "Location, Location, Location" they should in most cases come out ahead.   In the end, I am mortgage free.



Well, first of all I know of no situation where interest costs would be make total payments that high, unless you've got an insanely high mortgage rate.

Let's do some math.  Suppose we've got a $250,000 mortgage at 6% (which is about the long term average for rates if I remember right).  Making bi-weekly accelerated payments (which is always a good idea) gives you a mortgage payment of about $800 every two weeks, and the mortgage is paid off in 21 years.  You'll pay about $186,000 in interest over the life of the mortgage that way.  (You'll save about $44000 going biweekly instead of monthly).

Now, suppose you decided you could afford an extra $200 a month to use either to save or to invest... So, with the same mortgage terms, let's increase the payment to $900 every two weeks... what's that get us?  Well, you'll knock four years off the mortgage and save about another $41,000 in interest.  That sounds pretty good, right?

Well, suppose you're in a 30% tax bracket and you toss that money in an RRSP every year instead for the 17 years.  With a modest rate of return of 5% (which is basically the long term rule-of-thumb rate for a pretty conservative portfolio), in 17 years you'd be sitting on about $69,000 in an RRSP.  You won't have the mortgage paid off, sure... but in the remaining four years while you finish paying it off that RRSP will grow to about $95,000 if you keep the strategy in place.  Oh, and you'll save about $780/year in taxes which could be channeled to paying down the mortgage if you so chose anyhow.

See why it makes sense?

I played with a couple of calculations about assumptions on rates of return and mortgage rates, in the long run it seems like at mortgage rates above 7% it becomes a bit of a wash - assuming that the entirety of the mortgage payment once done is channeled into RRSPs and the tax returns invested as well.  In practice, that doesn't happen - which is why I advise people not to neglect retirement savings while paying their mortgage down.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> What did I learn in my Service?  Don't be like the Sergeant Majors who lived in PMQs, owned a big car, a boat, a Ski Doo and all kinds of other "toys".  When they reached retirement age, they had no home, had to sell their "toys" and landed up working as cleaners in the shacks.   A young Service Member should start planning now for their retirement.  We can all benefit now from SRSPs which those old Sergeant Majors never had the opportunity to.  We also have many Financial Advisors available to us these days to give us those informed decisions that we can make.  Depending on how frugal you want to live is up to you.  We all have many options to how we reach our goals, and not all our goals will be the same.



This is all excellent advice.  I know guys who retired as Sergeants with a million dollars to their name - and property too.  Why?  They saved fairly aggressively.  The balance of long-term savings and current lifestyle is up to every individual, of course, but nevertheless, the sooner one starts saving and managing their debts with a good strategy, the easier it is.  A big part of retirement planning that is often overlooked is trying to ascertain what exactly those goals are to plan appropriate.  While the CF has an amazing pension plan which on its own provides for a fairly decent retirement, if you want to keep enjoying the toys, you need to plan for that.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> When we first got introduced to the SRSP, we were told how we could have a RSP worth a million dollars when we retired after twenty years.  Nice dream to look forward to, but it never happened.  What did happen is we are left well better off than those who never planned for their retirement and hopefully be debt free able to enjoy the pleasures we dreamt of.



Depending on how the funds were invested that might be possible - but also, I've yet to see too many people who need a million dollars to retire comfortable - unless they plan to retire very, very young... but even those that do generally wind up working in some capacity because they need something to do.  I've not meant too many "freedom 55" types who don't do anything that brings in some income.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unlike some here, I am not a Financial Advisor, and I have made many mistakes in my finances over the years.  I was not lucky enough to have the access or opportunity to seek the advice of people like Redeye who have the knowledge to make well educated financial choices.  I did have to bite the bullet at times and live rather frugally.  I just did not like to carry any debt and now live, not in luxury, but comfortably.



All I hope to do is help people understand their choices better 

(couple of edits to clean up spelling/grammar errors and to fix up quotes)


----------



## Redeye

ballz said:
			
		

> Your annual interest rate and the effective annual interest rate are two different things as well.



The difference, in Canada, however is fairly small (and is disclosed clearly on mortgage documents - I don't think I've ever seen a case where it's been more than 10bps, if that).  Not so in the US, where the number of fees tacked onto mortgages at initiation add anywhere from 0.25%-1.00%.


----------



## Sigger

Redeye,
Fantastic advice.
I am taking notes.


----------



## Redeye

Sigger said:
			
		

> Redeye,
> Fantastic advice.
> I am taking notes.



If there's anything you want to know more about post it here.  This is, after all, what I do for a living besides being in the Reserve.  Remember, though, it's general advice only!


----------



## George Wallace

Redeye said:
			
		

> Let's do some math.  Suppose we've got a $250,000 mortgage at 6% (which is about the long term average for rates if I remember right).  Making bi-weekly accelerated payments (which is always a good idea) gives you a mortgage payment of about $800 every two weeks, and the mortgage is paid off in 21 years.  You'll pay about $186,000 in interest over the life of the mortgage that way.  (You'll save about $44000 going biweekly instead of monthly).
> 
> Now, suppose you decided you could afford an extra $200 a month to use either to save or to invest... So, with the same mortgage terms, let's increase the payment to $900 every two weeks... what's that get us?  Well, you'll knock four years off the mortgage and save about another $41,000 in interest.  That sounds pretty good, right?
> 
> Well, suppose you're in a 30% tax bracket and you toss that money in an RRSP every year instead for the 17 years.  With a modest rate of return of 5% (which is basically the long term rule-of-thumb rate for a pretty conservative portfolio), in 17 years you'd be sitting on about $69,000 in an RRSP.  You won't have the mortgage paid off, sure... but in the remaining four years while you finish paying it off that RRSP will grow to about $95,000 if you keep the strategy in place.  Oh, and you'll save about $780/year in taxes which could be channeled to paying down the mortgage if you so chose anyhow.
> 
> See why it makes sense?
> 
> I played with a couple of calculations about assumptions on rates of return and mortgage rates, in the long run it seems like at mortgage rates above 7% it becomes a bit of a wash - assuming that the entirety of the mortgage payment once done is channeled into RRSPs and the tax returns invested as well.  In practice, that doesn't happen - which is why I advise people not to neglect retirement savings while paying their mortgage down.



 Actually that sounds fairly much as to what I did.  For about three years I was in a situation where I had two mortgages (on two homes) and was forced to be rather frugal (except for the odd Happy Hour  > ), so my circumstances may be a bit of an anomaly.  I did max out my RSP each year, and paid as much as I could onto my mortgages, knowing I would be selling one soon.  In the end the sale of one house paid off the mortgage on the other.  Without that debt, I can have more flexibility in investing.  

Your predictions of investing in a RSP for 17 years are more realistic.  Anyone who thinks that a mortgage rate will remain at three per cent or that their returns from an investment will remain six per cent is living in a fantasy world.  These rates are in a constant state of flux and what we do to invest in our futures is a gamble calculated risk.  If you have the knowledge, you shouldn't loose your shirt.

Thanks guys for the points of view.  It will give many some thoughts to ponder.


----------



## dapaterson

Of course, the calculations assume only RRSP investing, which is not probable for a CF member as their pension adjustment limits their RRSP contribution room.  Even with the annual $5K TFSA contribution, this leaves other money that will be generating taxable returns, so 6% become 4% (though this can be mitigated somewhat by holding dividend stocks outside an RRSP).

As well, RRSPs are not a tax avoidance method; they are a tax deferral method.  Depending on your retirement income stream, RRSPs may not provide significant tax advantage on retirement as they will be taxed at your top marginal rate; if you're drawing a $60K pension, you'll pay about 25% in tax on RRSP/RRIF income in retirement.  The tax-deferred compounding helps, to be sure, but particularly for folks with defined benefit pensions RRSPs are overrated.

There are also inherent assumptions that our ahistoric intereste rates will remain in force for the long term.  One cannot reasonably assume 3% rates over a 35 year period - and I'd note that 3% is a variable rate, so there is an interest rate risk in carrying a mortgage at that rate.   As well, Max is using an example of a 15 year old buying a house, since somehow he's 50 and has paid off a 35 year mortgage.  I'm not certain how many folks here bought their first house at 15, but I suspect the number is low.


Financial advisors make money off your money - even when you're losing money.  Mutual funds are, frankly, nearly criminal in the amount they extort to provide underperformance - 2 or 3% of assets, every year, even when they tank.  Remember: financial advisors get paid by someone, so if they are "free" to you, it means they're getting a commission from the products they're selling you.  That commission is a cost to you.


----------



## SupersonicMax

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are also inherent assumptions that our ahistoric intereste rates will remain in force for the long term.  One cannot reasonably assume 3% rates over a 35 year period - and I'd note that 3% is a variable rate, so there is an interest rate risk in carrying a mortgage at that rate.   As well, Max is using an example of a 15 year old buying a house, since somehow he's 50 and has paid off a 35 year mortgage.  I'm not certain how many folks here bought their first house at 15, but I suspect the number is low.



I'm actually using a 25 years old buying a house, which is not unrealistic.

If the mortgage interest rate goes up, so does your invesment interest rates (normally).


----------



## Redeye

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Of course, the calculations assume only RRSP investing, which is not probable for a CF member as their pension adjustment limits their RRSP contribution room.  Even with the annual $5K TFSA contribution, this leaves other money that will be generating taxable returns, so 6% become 4% (though this can be mitigated somewhat by holding dividend stocks outside an RRSP).



Realistically, between TFSAs and RRSPs, even with the PA, for the average person there's still a lot to gain.  I have quite a few CF members as clients who still generate a fair bit of contribution room, it's not until they get fairly high in rank that it isn't as significant it seems.  It is, however, important to assess one's individual circumstances in evaluating the options available (that's why I stressed this is merely general advice).  TFSAs are an absolutely fantastic creation for people who don't have a lot of contribution room - they're also good for people in lower income brackets where the tax savings (tax deferral to be specific) isn't as valuable as the flexibility of the TFSA.  Their worst feature is the name, which is deceiving.  A lot of people think they are just "savings accounts" and use them for transactional purposes which can create problems, or don't realise there are other investment options available within them.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> As well, RRSPs are not a tax avoidance method; they are a tax deferral method.  Depending on your retirement income stream, RRSPs may not provide significant tax advantage on retirement as they will be taxed at your top marginal rate; if you're drawing a $60K pension, you'll pay about 25% in tax on RRSP/RRIF income in retirement.  The tax-deferred compounding helps, to be sure, but particularly for folks with defined benefit pensions RRSPs are overrated.



That's why I'm such a fan of TFSAs.  With some decent management you deal with some of the taxes, but ultimately, CRA has to get paid, and they'll get what they want from you one way or the other.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are also inherent assumptions that our ahistoric intereste rates will remain in force for the long term.  One cannot reasonably assume 3% rates over a 35 year period - and I'd note that 3% is a variable rate, so there is an interest rate risk in carrying a mortgage at that rate.   As well, Max is using an example of a 15 year old buying a house, since somehow he's 50 and has paid off a 35 year mortgage.  I'm not certain how many folks here bought their first house at 15, but I suspect the number is low.



That's why I used more realistic longer term numbers, the theory still holds though.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Financial advisors make money off your money - even when you're losing money.  Mutual funds are, frankly, nearly criminal in the amount they extort to provide underperformance - 2 or 3% of assets, every year, even when they tank.  Remember: financial advisors get paid by someone, so if they are "free" to you, it means they're getting a commission from the products they're selling you.  That commission is a cost to you.



Of course we do.  I don't work for free any more than anyone else.  The thing I see a lot in the industry though is that people tend to avoid discussions of compensation or feel they should hide it.  I don't go out of my way to advertise how I get paid or what I get paid, but I happen to work for an organization that actually has an excellent product shelf at resonable costs.  The funds I most commonly deal in are wraps and they all come in south of 2%, which in comparison to any sort of advisory role is pretty good.

About mutual funds: in broad strokes they are an excellent investment vehicle for people who lack the time or knowledge (or required capital) to manage their own portfolios, which is a very large chunk of the investing public.  That said, Canada has for years had the highest fees in the industry globally even though to a certain extent they've been dropping lately (some companies - most - raised fees modestly this year, but the trend for the last five has been downward).  What galls me when I see it is companies who charge obscene MERs, but the funds are also sold on a DSC basis and the performance merits nothing.  There's one major organization that is most guilty of this, and I enjoy taking their business from them, but I hate the "advice" they give.  They do lots of retirement planning, but it's not for their clients, shall we say...

What gets me as worse is when I see high-commission products sold where they're not needed - segregated funds being the prime example.  They benefits they are pitched for are rarely worth the cost, in my opinion.  I've seen them used in some horrible ways.

As far as "even when they tank" goes, most of a fund's MER is fixed costs.  Regardless of what the market's done, they have the same costs for accounting, legal expenses, distribution, that sort of thing.  Tying those fees to performance makes absolutely no sense.  Guess what?  A broker isn't going to cut his fees when the market goes against him either.

One of the most "clever" things I've seen lately is ING's "Streetwise Fund", which as pitched as a "low cost" alternative to other mutual funds.  When you delve into it, it's basically a balanced portfolio built of index funds with a wrap structure.  The MER is about twice (or more) what you'd pay for index funds.  They've figured out a brilliant way to sell index funds for a premium.


----------



## dapaterson

Max: I misread your earlier post; apologies.


Redeye: Anyone with over $50K should move away from advisors and into index ETFs.  Better performance, lower fees.  The Couch Potato approach, in other words.  Low-cost index mutuals should only be used for regular contributions to accumulate enough to make it worthwhile to invest more in ETFs - if we stick with the $400/month model, that's probably once a quarter.

I recall a chat I had with one advisor who wouldn't steer clients into ETFs, since mutuals paid him more.  I look at Bay Street (or Wall Street) and see the six-figure incomes paid to people who underperform the market - that's where MERs go, to compensate mediocrity.


----------



## Old Sweat

Whatever you do, get started as soon as you can. I started contributing to a RRSP in my twenties and continued through my career. At the time I had decided that my CF pension plus Old Age Security (pre CPP days) would probably not be sufficient to live on in any degree of comfort. The realization of that coupled with tax deferment led me to go the RRSP route. While perhaps I could have done better in my choices, overall the result has not been all that bad. Our collection of RRIFs - converted from our RRSPs - are allowing us to live comfortably with a fair amount of discretionary funds each month.

Now I am leaning towards TFSAs.


----------



## Redeye

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Redeye: Anyone with over $50K should move away from advisors and into index ETFs.  Better performance, lower fees.  The Couch Potato approach, in other words.  Low-cost index mutuals should only be used for regular contributions to accumulate enough to make it worthwhile to invest more in ETFs - if we stick with the $400/month model, that's probably once a quarter.



If they know what they're doing, yes.  I agree.  But most people don't, and lack either the time or inclination to learn, which is why they get advisors.  For those with the aptitude, though, ETFs (or even some of the "D" series mutual funds) are good options for those who can't efficiently build a portfolio of stocks and bonds on their own or want more diversification.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> I recall a chat I had with one advisor who wouldn't steer clients into ETFs, since mutuals paid him more.  I look at Bay Street (or Wall Street) and see the six-figure incomes paid to people who underperform the market - that's where MERs go, to compensate mediocrity.



Not all fund managers are mediocre, but many are, and at high prices (I think, particularly, of a firm that's sort of a household name... but I won't bash my competitors by name that's not fair)... there is a need to do one's homework... but yes, no advisor is likely to sell ETFs unless they have another way of making a living (ie a % of assets under management) because the reason they're inexpensive is they have no compensation mechanism for sellers.


----------



## dapaterson

Of course, the optimum method would be to employ the Smith Manoeuvre (I think that's the name):

* Take the extra $400 and put it against your mortgage
* Borrow back the $400 against a line of credit backed by your house
* Invest the $400

That way, you get the $400 invested, plus the loan interest on that $400 is now tax-deductible as an investment related expense.   (Many considerations here to ensure that the rate spread isn't too great and ends up costing you money).

It's not a move for the faint of heart since you're icnreasing leverage, and needs solid advice and financial expertise to ensure you follow the rules to the letter, but it can be a way to leverage home ownership into a larger portfolio.

(And you can also hold part of your mortgage in your RRSP - charge yourself a (relatively) high fixed rate of interest instead of paying the bank).


There are lots of ways to reduce your tax bill; just be careful and seek unbiased expert advice.  In other words, saying "RandomDude73 on the Internet said to do this!" is not a valid defence should you end up in tax court.


----------



## Redeye

It's indeed called the "Smith Maneuvre" and it's not really a bad idea.

We use it a lot, mainly to create "investment loans" when people have existing borrowing and assets to make them tax deductible - there is a risk that CRA could disallow it as a pure tax-avoidance play, but I can't say I've heard of it happening.


----------



## observor 69

I have a TD TFSA with 50% CDN Bond index, 30% Dividend and 20% CDN Index.
All the index funds are E funds with low MERs. My RRSP has the same asset allocation.
I road the market down in 2008 and back up.
I am quite happy with this portfolio allocation, it is making money and I feel it has built in safety for my age.
Thoughts?
Oh, and my mortgage is paid off.


----------



## Redeye

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> I have a TD TFSA with 50% CDN Bond index, 30% Dividend and 20% CDN Index.
> All the index funds are E funds with low MERs. My RRSP has the same asset allocation.
> I road the market down in 2008 and back up.
> I am quite happy with this portfolio allocation, it is making money and I feel it has built in safety for my age.
> Thoughts?
> Oh, and my mortgage is paid off.



50%-50% is a good balanced mix.  I can't give you an official opinion since, well, this is an internet forum and all, but if you're looking out 5+ years you're probably in a decent position.  The key is to make sure to rebalance it often - all else being equal over the long, the market returns on the equity portion will be higher, meaning you'll drift from that 50-50 balance and the portfolio will become proportionally more risky, so you'll need to move some of them back toward the fixed income side of the portfolio.  This is one of the major problems I see with a lot of portfolios I look at as "second opinions".  Some get incomprehensibly complex.  I've seen people with literally 20 different mutual funds (often many are substantially similar) with no rhyme or reason for their choice, other than perhaps the wholesalers bought the guy a lot of drinks at their golf outing.

Only real concern beyond that - not much exposure to anything but Canada.  We're about 2% of the world's economy.  That said, we've done better than most places lately but a lot of portfolio managers are bargain hunting in the US now and that could be something worth hoisting aboard.

Candidly, look at TD's Bond Fund vice the Bond Index Fund.  Its MER is higher, but last time I looked at the two side by side, it was worth it.  TD's bonds manager is a guy called Satish Rai, and he's pretty much brilliant.


----------



## observor 69

Thanks for your comments.
I had noticed the TD Bond fund had good results.
I'll have to take another look at it.


----------



## kawa11

You make 40-50K$/yr. You pay 200$/mn into your RRSP and in return, the Gov't gives you an instant return of the 25% you would've paid in taxes (Hopefully, you reinvest this money into something like a TFSA and don't just blow it). You continue to make payments for years to come and are collecting a nice 3-10% return (depending on how passive/aggressive you are) At the end of all these years of saving you take your money out to retire.....the bank takes it's "management" fees and the Gov't takes it's 45% income tax because now the account totals much higher than the highest tax bracket.

Does this not mean that you've essentially burned 10% or greater of your money? With those figures, paying the 11c a year tax of the interest earned from a savings account would have been cheaper.

Aren't RRSPs only good for the Gov't, the banks and the rich (ie. people who earn 120K$/yr or more *or* people who were going to be paying 45% tax anyway)?


----------



## MJP

kawa11 said:
			
		

> You make 40-50K$/yr. You pay 200$/mn into your RRSP and in return, the Gov't gives you an instant return of the 25% you would've paid in taxes (Hopefully, you reinvest this money into something like a TFSA and don't just blow it). You continue to make payments for years to come and are collecting a nice 3-10% return (depending on how passive/aggressive you are) At the end of all these years of saving you take your money out to retire.....the bank takes it's "management" fees and the Gov't takes it's 45% income tax because now the account totals much higher than the highest tax bracket.
> 
> Does this not mean that you've essentially burned 10% or greater of your money? With those figures, paying the 11c a year tax of the interest earned from a savings account would have been cheaper.
> 
> Aren't RRSPs only good for the Gov't, the banks and the rich (ie. people who earn 120K$/yr or more *or* people who were going to be paying 45% tax anyway)?



No ideally you would draw from your RRSPs when your income is lower (ie you retired) and therefore are in a lower tax bracket.  There is of course more to it than simply that but the basic fact is that informed consumers that choose carefully, well managed funds do quite well with RRSPs.


----------



## kawa11

So the Gov't gives you a tax break when you "officially" retire (ie. jobless and collecting CPP)?

The only experience I have is when I settled my father's estate. Because the amount in his RRSPs exceeded the top tax bracket we were subject to taxes in excessive of 45%.
Is it different for living people? (I can't believe I used that phrase and it made sense) Or possibly, can moneys be taken in amounts under 24K$/annually and limited your taxes to the original 15% taxes paid [and that should be sitting in a TFSA]?


****, I wish my father were here. He handled the finances...and I don't mean that in a "juvenile-I'm-too-incompetant-to-count-dollar-signs" way, I mean he was a corporate fund manager LOL


----------



## Rheostatic

A question to those in the know: What should one look for in a RRSP? What makes one bank's RRSP better than the next?


----------



## Redeye

kawa11 said:
			
		

> So the Gov't gives you a tax break when you "officially" retire (ie. jobless and collecting CPP)?
> 
> The only experience I have is when I settled my father's estate. Because the amount in his RRSPs exceeded the top tax bracket we were subject to taxes in excessive of 45%.
> Is it different for living people? (I can't believe I used that phrase and it made sense) Or possibly, can moneys be taken in amounts under 24K$/annually and limited your taxes to the original 15% taxes paid [and that should be sitting in a TFSA]?
> 
> 
> ****, I wish my father were here. He handled the finances...and I don't mean that in a "juvenile-I'm-too-incompetant-to-count-dollar-signs" way, I mean he was a corporate fund manager LOL



The estate impact of RRSPs is why you need a plan to pull the money out as well when you retire to try to run it down as much as possible, but at the end of the day even with the big final tax hit generally speaking in almost all occasions it's still well worth it.  Now that TFSAs exist they can be more beneficial to lower income earners perhaps, but I won't stop thinking RRSPs are a very good idea indeed.


----------



## dapaterson

RRSPs can serve additional benefit for long-serving CF or Public servants.  CFSA and PSSA benefits have certain penalties if drawn before certain age / years of service combinations.  

Delaying drawing payments from the CFSA or PSSA can reduce those penalties.  Using slow RRSP withdrawals to live off can permit an earlier retirement, and increased pension benefits by reducing or elminating the penalties.



re: Best RRSPs.  Find a bank with low-fee mutual funds to start, and begin monthly pre-authorized transfers.  As you get pay increases, increase your contributions (staying within your maximums).  A good advisor will help you balance TFSA and RRSP contributions; the appropriate mix will vary depending on your employment and income, since, at entry level, you're unlikely to be able to make maximum contributions to both.


----------



## Rheostatic

dapaterson said:
			
		

> re: Best RRSPs.  Find a bank with low-fee mutual funds to start, and begin monthly pre-authorized transfers.  As you get pay increases, increase your contributions (staying within your maximums).  A good advisor will help you balance TFSA and RRSP contributions; the appropriate mix will vary depending on your employment and income, since, at entry level, you're unlikely to be able to make maximum contributions to both.


Thanks, I've read plenty on how much and how often to contribute, but I've found much less information on how RRSPs are structured.


----------



## dapaterson

A registered retirement account can be almost anything - savings type account, GICs, mutual funds, stocks, bonds... but in early years, it's probably easiest to accumulate in a low MER mutual fund.  Mutuals give you diversification.

Most of RRSP savings is putting it aside and monitoring it occasionally - but not obsessing about every fluctuation.


----------



## Fotoshark

I'm not sure if it's been added yet as there's a ton of pages to go thru but for those with or thinking about getting RRSPs, for every $1000 in a yr you gain $300 back on ur income tax.  The more you contribute the better.  I am fortunate to have grown up with family in the banking industry so I have an RRSP and a mutual fund on the go.  At one point I did have Canada savings bonds but the comparison in effort to make any gain on those compared to the many options the banks have was so not worth it that I cancelled em and went the bank investment route.  My RRSP is for retirement however.  The mutual fund is for savings, and knock on wood I've never really lost much on the market I've more or less gained more in the long run.

It's def worth it to invest ur money 

-T.


----------



## Zinking

Just don't get married.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Zinking said:
			
		

> Just don't get married.



Stop spamming the threads with your useless, unfunny and non helpful posts.

Go read the Guidelines.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Infidel86

Hey guys, I have a serious question about pay and didn't want to have to start another thread.

The starting pay for a NCM Pvt. is 2751. Is this before or after deductions? 

As well, if its after deductions, how much would that work out to be? Anyone know?

Before someone says ask a recruiter, I did, they were not clear on the answer and they said it would be around $1400.00 after deductions. I could not live off $1400, and that is a rediculous amount of deductions if its true..

Hope someone can help!


----------



## PuckChaser

Depends on what province you live in. You need to pay federal and provincial tax which is most of it. You're also paying rations and quarters unless you've got a family.

No one joins the Army for the pay, its horrible off the bat.


----------



## Infidel86

Understandable. But I dont make a great income at the moment either and the CF will at least give me a career and something to look forward to as far as advancement. 

I am just wondering if I ended up in Ontario or Alberta what I reasonably would expect to earn. I have a partner who makes a very decent income. However, $1400 regardless if your a Pvt in first year is way to low to do anything with. So I am looking for confirmation on that since the recruiter wasn't very clear.


----------



## George Wallace

That is you monthly Pay.....and that isn't enough to live on when you are restricted to Quarters for most of your Basic Training, have a roof over your head, a bed to sleep in (most of the time), food in your mouth.....You may or may not be allowed to buy a beer.......Weekends may be the only time you have off.......HOW MUCH do you need?


Ask your partner what they have left after they pay for their rent/mortgage, food and drink, electricity, water, sewer, cable/satellite, phone/cell/internet and then compare.


----------



## Loachman

The abbreviation for Private in Canadian and other Commonwealth armed forces is "Pte". "Pvt" is short for either "pervert", or "Private" in the US of A.

Pay rates express pay prior to deductions, as deductions can vary widely.


----------



## Infidel86

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That is you monthly Pay.....and that isn't enough to live on when you are restricted to Quarters for most of your Basic Training, have a roof over your head, a bed to sleep in (most of the time), food in your mouth.....You may or may not be allowed to buy a beer.......Weekends may be the only time you have off.......HOW MUCH do you need?
> 
> 
> Ask your partner what they have left after they pay for their rent/mortgage, food and drink, electricity, water, sewer, cable/satellite, phone/cell/internet and then compare.



Well, when I say it isn't enough, it is in a sense. I realize how basic works but basic and SQ is only so long then you need to get a place and I would not be living on base with a partner.. that much I know. I am not a  drinker and not a big cash spender but I work at a crappy job now and my take home is $1800-1900 a month after deductions on average. I am fine with the current pay scale that is provided by the CF "website" but not from the quote given to me about deductions. If you do the math $2751 to $1400 is $1351 in deductions.. half of the income to deductions? does that seem reasonable? Even if I was single if someone has a car payment, insurance, cell phone/internet, food bill and rent.. the usual crap... it doesn't leave much at all for savings or anything else really.


----------



## George Wallace

None of us have mentioned the contributions you are also making towards a Pension.

If you are not going to be living in the Shacks and eating in the Mess Hall after your Basic, but in your own residence, then that money (Rations and Quarters) would not be deducted; which again changes the figures.


----------



## Loachman

You should look at the next couple of pay levels.

Most of us, here, got through the training system at the equivalent (in whatever year's dollars) pay rate at which you're looking without starving to death or being deprived of shelter, vehicle, furniture, and alcohol.

You should also worry more about how much (little) spending money you'll have after your future divorce.


----------



## Infidel86

Loachman said:
			
		

> You should look at the next couple of pay levels.
> 
> Most of us, here, got through the training system at the equivalent (in whatever year's dollars) pay rate at which you're looking without starving to death or being deprived of shelter, vehicle, furniture, and alcohol.
> 
> You should also worry more about how much (little) spending money you'll have after your future divorce.



I've been with her for 7 years and I work shift work midnights and she works days. If it wasn't going to work it already wouldn't have. Thank's for the tip though  

I know it gets better, but I am trying to figure out how much I would earn in my first year after the non-elective deductions are taken. Anyways I am assuming this answer is not going to be answered directly here so I will try to find out from someone who is at my stage of the game. Thank's for the help though.


----------



## Loachman

You may be one of the lucky few - or perhaps working different shifts helps.

Others among us have earned our cynicism.


----------



## Infidel86

Loachman said:
			
		

> You may be one of the lucky few - or perhaps working different shifts helps.
> 
> Others among us have earned our cynicism.



Well if you had issues with your marriage/family situation I suppose that would be the case, but to be frank, I dont need help in that area. I came here to discuss finances though..


----------



## JorgSlice

Infidel86 said:
			
		

> Well if you had issues with your marriage/family situation I suppose that would be the case, but to be frank, I dont need help in that area. I came here to discuss finances though..



You'll be fine. Just don't be looking to buy a Benz or Porche on an Army salary.

Plenty of people all across Canada have had 20+ year careers and have had started a family at some point and they too survived and lived comfortably (within ones means). Keep in mind, living off base generally means your housing costs increase, although base housing is set at market value so it may not actually be a big difference.


Just remember though, you don't know what tomorrow holds. You could end up in the Army and being relocated every 3 years by the CF and she might jump ship because she'd rather be somewhere permanent.


----------



## blacktriangle

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> You'll be fine. Just don't be looking to buy a Benz or Porche on an Army salary.



That's funny. I see them everyday.


----------



## dimsum

Spectrum said:
			
		

> That's funny. I see them everyday.



Those would be the people wondering why there aren't any deployments/OUTCAN postings to make the fat-cash to pay off for said Benz/Porsche.


----------



## JorgSlice

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Those would be the people wondering why there aren't any deployments/OUTCAN postings to make the fat-cash to pay off for said Benz/Porsche.



....and the same people that would later gripe about how hard it is to live in the Army?  :


----------



## blacktriangle

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> ....and the same people that would later gripe about how hard it is to live in the Army?  :



No, those are usually the ones that didn't realize it was expensive to have 3-4 kids, a wife that doesn't work, and a rusty pick up truck.


----------



## ARMY_101

Has anyone used the SISIP financial advice services?  They're $6 a month for junior NCMs and officers and $12 for all others (including former personnel). They provide financial advice, investment ideas, budgeting, etc. I'd mostly be going to them for medium- and long-term investment advice, portfolios, etc. and a neutral opinion I might not be getting from personal research and banks.


----------



## half-pint

Spectrum said:
			
		

> No, those are usually the ones that didn't realize it was expensive to have 3-4 kids, a wife that doesn't work, and a rusty pick up truck.



If there was a 'like' button I'd 'like' this post!!!! :goodpost:


----------



## maxwel_fredrick

Say you are a single male, no kids, no house, no student loans, no credit debt, no cable/internet/power/hydro bills, living in a Army base, working all the time as a full-time Infantry solider...

I've read that starting wage is $49,000 per year. 

Other than savings, what does the average CF Infantry soldier spend his money on?


----------



## dangerboy

maxwel_fredrick said:
			
		

> Say you are a single male, no kids, no house, no student loans, no credit debt, no cable/internet/power/hydro bills, living in a Army base, working all the time as a full-time Infantry solider...
> 
> I've read that starting wage is $49,000 per year.
> 
> Other than savings, what does the average CF Infantry soldier spend his money on?



The average infantry soldier has cable and internet.


----------



## mariomike

maxwel_fredrick said:
			
		

> Other than savings, what does the average CF Infantry soldier spend his money on?



This advice seems to apply to all trades.

" As for what you can spend you money on, more like what can't you spend your money on. Eating out when you're sick of food on base, movies, a car, taxi fare to get you to the bar and back, on a gf/bf, clothes, books.....the list is endless. However, if you are serious in having a goal for your money, then spend and save wisely.  Just don't go completely without.  Enjoy some treats, or you'll go nuts. "
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/58540/post-540129.html#msg540129
Reply #2


----------



## Towards_the_gap

dangerboy said:
			
		

> The average infantry soldier has cable and internet.



Well that was a grown-up answer! 

Here is a more truthful response:

(borrowed from www.terminallance.com )


----------



## 421_434_226

maxwel-fredrick, not sure where you got the starting wage as 49k, the starting wage for a Pte is actually around 33k, 49k is the third pay incentive or after your second anniversary in the Forces. I suggest you try looking at forces.ca under pay scales, Regular Force and Class C. (finding the right table can be somewhat convoluted) I would also think that the average person spends the majority of their income on living expenses, and don't forget that normal deductions will take a large chunk of the wage.


----------



## Scott

maxwel_fredrick said:
			
		

> Other than savings, what does the average CF Infantry soldier spend his money on?



 Liquor and whores....liquor and whores....


----------



## dapaterson

Military members pay CPP and EI: 4.95% and 1.88% of gross pay, respectively, up to the contribution limits ($51K and $47K).

CF Pension contributions: 6.85% of earnings up to the CPP maximum, 9.2% on earnings above the CPP maximum.  These rates will rise to 8.15% and 10.4% by 2015.

Thus, on your first $50K (or so) you'll pay 13.68% in pension and EI contributions, plus income tax on top of that.


----------



## RectorCR

Scott said:
			
		

> Liquor and whores....liquor and whores....



Cigarettes and dope and mustard and Bologna..... 

Come on guys it doesn't take rocket appliances to get this reference.


----------



## half-pint

Scott said:
			
		

> Liquor and whores....liquor and whores....



.... Cigarettes, and dope, and mustard and bologna, liquor and whores!!

Sorry, I read that and couldn't help thinking of Bubbles!!


----------



## half-pint

RectorCR said:
			
		

> Cigarettes and dope and mustard and Bologna.....
> 
> Come on guys it doesn't take rocket appliances to get this reference.



Just saw your post; i guess great minds think alike   :goodpost:


----------



## Okanagan Guy

Hello,

I’ve combed this thread and others, along with the forces site and web trying to find some current info on pay scales and deductions. While there is plenty of info out there I would like some current information. I’m going for REG forces NCM. I have the following questions:

What are the current deduction amounts while at BMQ? Are those same deductions going to continue throughout your career assuming you’re living “on base” whether it be training, posting or deployment? I did review this with the recruiter but that was last year and I don’t remember if there was a separation allowance given (which I believe is no longer offered to married members?). I don’t need the breakdown of what they are, just a net figure either before or after income tax would be great! I seem to remember it being about $1400/month after income tax and deductions. When you’re assigned to a posting (after training) I’m assuming if you live off base the deductions of room and board are removed?

Are the pay increments for PTE scheduled or based on merit? http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page . If scheduled, when can you expect to reach Pay Increment 2 and 3? I’ve read that the increases in your current rank happen annually and I understand further promotion to Cpl is based on merit. Can someone please confirm this? 

I’m going for AESOP or ACOP which based on the following link http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/specialist-pay-reg-force-ncm-mosids.page requires a rank of Cpl. I’ve read that in most cases a Pte won’t reach Corporal until year 4. Does this mean I won’t get to do the trade until year 4? Or are you in some sort of a “mentorship” program for a while after you’ve completed your basic and trade specific training? Anyone who has done, or is currently in this trade would be great to hear from. 

I understand that speaking with the recruiter is the best way to get specific answers, however the closest recruiter is a 5 hour drive and contacting them via phone or email is difficult with more relevant questions regarding the application process. I can only imagine the response time and interest level of a recruiter for these questions, given that I’m not even merit listed yet. They’ve got a huge work load and I understand that. I’ll confirm all this with the recruiter when the time comes but any insight would be great at this time. 

I also understand that some of this information has been addressed in previous posts, but policies change and some current info would be preferred. 

Thank you for your time.


----------



## KerryBlue

This thread seems to have everything you asked WRT to BMQ pay and allowances covered 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111011.0


----------



## MedicTWO

Does anyone have any tips for someone having to take a pay cut when joining the forces?

I found a few links through google (linked at bottom), but I am looking for some advice and possibly first hand experience. If I become a special little snowflake and am offered a job, my income will be cut nearly in half. I know many people were like me and looking to join the forces having already acquired a mortgage, car payments ect... My saving grace happens to be that I do not have any dependents and am still young.

Also, while I am thinking of it. Can I rent out my condo and still live on base? I would prefer to keep it as a rental in Grande Prairie until I am able to buy a larger house near a base. 

Sorry if this is in the wrong spot. I am unsure if I should have started a new thread 

~MedicTWO

http://moneyfor20s.about.com/od/Financial_Plan/tp/How-To-Cut-Your-Lifestyle-When-You-Take-A-Pay-Cut.htm
http://www.salary.com/8-reasons-take-pay-cut/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/learnvest/2013/08/19/when-you-should-and-shouldnt-take-a-pay-cut/


----------



## George Wallace

Of course you can own a "rental property".  You will, of course, then not be able to claim it as your residence to avoid paying for Rations and Quarters.


----------



## Tibbson

And there are no assurances that you will be posted anywhere near Grand Prairie so look for a good property management company in the area.


----------



## MedicTWO

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Of course you can own a "rental property".  You will, of course, then not be able to claim it as your residence to avoid paying for Rations and Quarters.



Ahh no... Something tells me that the CF frowns upon people cheating the system

Thanks for clarifying! I got silly information from someone that you cannot live on base if you own property. I would hate to have to sell and lose what may be one the best decisions I have ever made.


----------



## stayfrosty

Hi all, 

I haven't been able to find the exact answer to this question in my searching of the forums so I am assuming that this topic is as good a place to ask it as any.

I am married with a family and own a house (or at least the bank does!) presently. I understand that as a 'raw recruit' the rate of pay (as per the CF website) is $2806/month, which equates to approximately $1500 net for someone in my position. Obviously this is about half what am I making now and I understand that while at BMQ/Land Course we will have to dip into our savings to cover our shortfall.

In the interests of making a short story long, my questions are these.

The CF website lists the 'starting salary for a fully trained (insert trade name here) is $49440'
(or, $4120/month..  Private Pay Level 1, Pay Increment 3 see here: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page?)

Would you be at this rate upon the completion of your MOC? 

Using myself as an example, one of the trades I have applied for Supply Tech; a 70-day course at CFB Borden. 
Similarly, I have also applied for ACISS, an 18-week trade training period in Kingston... would I be considered 'fully trained' (pay increment 3) at the completion of my trade training?

Also, do you remain at the pay increment 1 the entire time you are doing your trade training, or do you get moved up to Pay Increment 2 ($3430/month) after you complete your BMQ and get sent to your MOC?

I apologize if these specific questions have been answered in other threads, I couldn't find it if they were. These might be questions better asked of my recruiter but I thought I would pursue the combined wisdom of the group here.

I know (as with any career change) you have to start at the bottom and work your way up... just trying to get a sense of how I/we will need to budget if I am fortunate to be offered a position with the CF.

Thanks everyone for your time in reading this.


----------



## DAA

You start off at "Pay Increment 1" on enrolment.  One year later, you go to "PI 2" and two years after enrolment "PI 3".  Then no more increases until you are promoted to Cpl.

The website provides a very "bad" example and information that can be misinterpreted rather easily.


----------



## cele-am

DAA said:
			
		

> You start off at "Pay Increment 1" on enrolment.  One year later, you go to "PI 2" and two years after enrolment "PI 3".  Then no more increases until you are promoted to Cpl.
> 
> The website provides a very "bad" example and information that can be misinterpreted rather easily.



I was wondering, do you know what is the basis for the promotion to Cpl. ?


----------



## stealthylizard

Generally 4 years time in, excluding trade specific advanced promotions, or skilled entry plans.  

But that's not written in stone either.  It's up to your chain of command, and your own motivation/lack of.  Meaning you can be promoted before 4 years if your chain of command thinks you deserve it.  Or you can serve longer than 4 years and not get promoted to corporal if they see you as a bag of spent casings.


----------



## George Wallace

cele-am said:
			
		

> I was wondering, do you know what is the basis for the promotion to Cpl. ?



 ???

You have enrolled as a DEO CELE officer.  Why you are concerned about pay increases and promotions to Cpl is confusing.  Perhaps it is time for you to do more READING and research to better inform yourself.  So far, all the questions you have asked, have been answered hundreds of times already.  As an aspiring officer, perhaps you should get more familiar with research tools available to you.


----------



## Hanhnguyen6691

Pay taxes are high responsibility that our young people, because we are living in an environment of social security regime in that kind of world

---------------------


----------



## Flavus101

Hanhnguyen6691 said:
			
		

> Pay taxes are high responsibility that our young people, because we are living in an environment of social security regime in that kind of world
> 
> ---------------------



What...?  ???


----------



## Treemoss

I thought I would pose a question regarding money entering the CAF. 

I'm wondering how much money I should safely have prior to acceptance or BMQ as a safety net. I'm not 100% of the financials, fees, or costs going in.


----------



## genesis563

Be sure to have enough money to pay bills for at least one month, but i suggest two. My experience going through is that i went a month and a half without pay due to administrative errors.


----------



## Treemoss

genesis563 said:
			
		

> Be sure to have enough money to pay bills for at least one month, but i suggest two. My experience going through is that i went a month and a half without pay due to administrative errors.



Hmm.. ok. That's really good to know, bright side is i got time to continue putting money aside.


----------



## SpaceInvader

Exiting the CF and retiring early on your money:
----------------------------------------------

Just putting this out there for any vets who are wondering how to retire on next to nothing.  

I've lived in a few countries already and I've been able to do it on almost nothing. (I teach English) 
You can live in Mexico for less than $180/month for 2 people and buy a fairly nice 2 bedroom house for under $20,000 if you feel so inclined. (Foreign ownership is possible through a trust with a national bank)
China is doable on around $400 to $500/month for a really nice 2 bedroom apartment. 
The Philippines is about the same as Mexico and probably a little safer. 

You can also work and make a bit of money if you get bored of sitting around. 

As an example: 
If you have a TESOL which takes about a week to get, you can bring in around $2000 to $2500(China) and $1000(Mexico) to start per month. The job probably resembles BMQ (lots of yelling and marching in formation)... you don't need a degree but you do need a lot of patients. ;D


----------



## Rose97

I was not sure where the best place to post this is, but this thread seems like a good place.

I am currently going through the application process and I have run into a bit of a money issue. I informed my work that I was going through the application process so they could be prepared if I am accepted. I thought letting them know in advance was the right thing to do, but because I did they have reduced my working hours to eight hours per week so they can train other people to take over. I am going to have a very hard time going from 25-30 hours per week to eight. My first instinct was to find another job so I can make the money that I need, but it is unlikely anyone would want to hire me when I am at this stage of my application.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks guys!


----------



## MJP

Rose97 said:
			
		

> I was not sure where the best place to post this is, but this thread seems like a good place.
> 
> I am currently going through the application process and I have run into a bit of a money issue. I informed my work that I was going through the application process so they could be prepared if I am accepted. I thought letting them know in advance was the right thing to do, but because I did they have reduced my working hours to eight hours per week so they can train other people to take over. I am going to have a very hard time going from 25-30 hours per week to eight. My first instinct was to find another job so I can make the money that I need, but it is unlikely anyone would want to hire me when I am at this stage of my application.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks guys!


Get another job and don't tell them you are joining.


----------



## kev994

Cutting your hours like that is called "creative dismissal". They're trying to make it so you quit. They're not allowed to do that, but I'm not sure what you can do about it.


----------



## mariomike

Rose97 said:
			
		

> I was not sure where the best place to post this is, but this thread seems like a good place.
> 
> I am currently going through the application process and I have run into a bit of a money issue. I informed my work that I was going through the application process so they could be prepared if I am accepted. I thought letting them know in advance was the right thing to do, but because I did they have reduced my working hours to eight hours per week so they can train other people to take over. I am going to have a very hard time going from 25-30 hours per week to eight. My first instinct was to find another job so I can make the money that I need, but it is unlikely anyone would want to hire me when I am at this stage of my application.
> 
> Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks guys!



Some discussion here,

Being for fired or let go for enlisting?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/116329.0

Good luck with your application.


----------



## runormal

kev994 said:
			
		

> Cutting your hours like that is called "creative  Constructive dismissal". They're trying to make it so you quit. They're not allowed to do that, but I'm not sure what you can do about it.



FTFY

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/termination.php#cons_dismissal

"A constructive dismissal may occur when an employer makes a significant change to a fundamental term or condition of an employee's employment without the employee's actual or implied consent.

For example, an employee may be constructively dismissed if the employer makes changes to the employee's terms and conditions of employment that result in a significant reduction in salary or a significant negative change in such things as the employee's work location, hours of work, authority, or position. Constructive dismissal may also include situations where an employer harasses or abuses an employee, or an employer gives an employee an ultimatum to "quit or be fired" and the employee resigns in response.

The employee would have to resign in response to the change within a reasonable period of time in order for the employer's actions to be considered a termination of employment for purposes of the ESA.

Constructive dismissal is a complex and difficult subject. For more information on constructive dismissal please contact the Employment Standards Information Centre, 1-800-531-5551."

Where do you work right now? (Industry and wage is fine) How long have you worked there? IN all honesty you _shouldn't _of told them anything. You are right it is the "right thing to do", but you also need to look out for your self. Once you post some more information I'll try and suggest more. 

Edit: If you do any searching online only look at Ontario links, nothing else is relevant as it varies by province.


----------



## Jska

Just wondering if anyone else has found some good ways to use their posting allowance after a move.  Brookfield is useless regarding this and a mortgage interest buy down is not an option for us.  Thoughts?

Thanks


----------



## BinRat55

If you have room, RRSP
RESP
GIC / TBill
Savings for next years income tax blitz
Lots and lots of take out
Donate it to a charity
Donate it to me
Buy a motorcycle
Buy a gun
Buy several guns
Buy me a gun
More take out
Mopar accessories
A Karaoke machine

I could go on... but you could pay me to shut up...


----------



## Lumber

My last posting allowance went into a slush fund for renovations to my new house.

The posting allowance before that.. I'm not really sure... it went into a slush fund of drinking and take-out...


----------



## BinRat55

Mmmmm slush!


----------



## runormal

A post secondary education fund for your future children?


----------



## George Wallace

Jska said:
			
		

> Just wondering if anyone else has found some good ways to use their posting allowance after a move.  Brookfield is useless regarding this and a mortgage interest buy down is not an option for us.  Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks



Would asking a Financial Planner not be the best option, than anonymous folk on the internet?


----------



## George Wallace

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> If you have room, RRSP
> RESP
> GIC / TBill
> Savings for next years income tax blitz
> Lots and lots of take out
> Donate it to a charity
> Donate it to me
> Buy a motorcycle
> Buy a gun
> Buy several guns
> Buy me a gun
> More take out
> Mopar accessories
> A Karaoke machine
> 
> I could go on... but you could pay me to shut up...



T-Bill ???  I wouldn't ever recommend a T-Bill to anyone (never for the past two decades anyway).

TFSA would be better than most of those suggestions, other than "Donate it to me".   >


----------



## Eye In The Sky

What George said above.  Everyone has different needs based on different lives, right?

Personally, mine went into a spousal RRSP.  I was not willing to tax the 48ish% tax hit on taking it in cash.  Now, it is being invested and growing in worth (I hope!).


----------



## mariomike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Would asking a Financial Planner not be the best option, than anonymous folk on the internet?



There is also this sticky,

Entering the CF and YOUR Money....  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/26093.0.html
10 pages. 
OP: "I would wish for the mods to sticky this thread, and any and all advice, questions, and occasionally opinions to do with personal finances be discussed here."


----------



## BinRat55

George Wallace said:
			
		

> T-Bill ???  I wouldn't ever recommend a T-Bill to anyone (never for the past two decades anyway).
> 
> TFSA would be better than most of those suggestions, other than "Donate it to me".   >



Good one - I never thought of a TFSA...

What about a really big fish tank? You could put phiranna in there and bury all the loot at the bottom?

I'm sorry - i'm just in an impish mood... also, like WHAT GEORGE SAID - maybe a financial planner wouldn't have given you the answers I did... just sayin...


----------



## Jska

Thanks!

Yes, Definitely trying to minimize taxing off of it as much as possible as much as a drinking fund, etc would be nice!


----------



## George Wallace

mariomike said:
			
		

> There is also this sticky,
> 
> Entering the CF and YOUR Money....
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/26093.0.html
> 10 pages.
> OP: "I would wish for the mods to sticky this thread, and any and all advice, questions, and occasionally opinions to do with personal finances be discussed here."



It is "Stickied" and up there.   [


----------



## kungfupanda

Are reg force soldiers allowed to have part time jobs? 

I ask cause right now I work part time as a firefighter and also part time for a private ems company that does pt transfer and event medical. I applied for armored crewman and will unfortunately have to resign from my ff position if hired, however if after BMQ/trade I am stationed in Edmonton the ems company has an office there and I would be able to still pull shifts. The Fire Department we have to schedule our shifts 60days in advance so it may be unrealistic to be able to keep those commitments.

Do you guys find the cf pays well enough to support a family on a single person income with out having to work extra? Or at bare minimum does your significant other have to work as well? Once your trade trained are there opportunities with in the cf to pick up extra shifts or work if needed? example....extra money for vacation, last push to finish off loans ect... 

Thoughts, comments, suggestions?


----------



## mariomike

kungfupanda said:
			
		

> Are reg force soldiers allowed to have part time jobs?



Working Part-Time On the Side  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/92807.0;nowap
2 pages.

Having another job while in the CF...is it possible?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/55404.0
2 pages.



			
				kungfupanda said:
			
		

> I ask cause right now I work part time as a firefighter < snip >



You may find this discussion of interest,

Volunteer firefighters in Reg Force (merged)
http://army.ca/forums/threads/102618.0
2 pages.



			
				kungfupanda said:
			
		

> Once your trade trained are there opportunities with in the cf to pick up extra shifts or work if needed?



Overtime? I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have read on here,

"You might work 'overtime', but you don't get paid for it."

"No member of the Canadian Armed Forces receives any type of "overtime" pay."

"Actually, all CF members get overtime pay; it's just that it's factored in to the base pay."

"NOT ONE PERSON serving in the CF is paid OVERTIME;  PERIOD."


----------



## WFT32

How far is the pay between NCMs and Officers?


----------



## SupersonicMax

What do you mean by "how far"?  Between Private and General?  Any factor for responsibilities and qualifications?  

It is a broad question you are asking that may have very different answers depending on how you interpret it.  Regardless, here are the pay scales for regular forces Officers and NCM respectively:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-class-c-officer-rates.page
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page


----------

