# Aviation Systems Technician ( AVN Tech )



## platinumfx (15 Oct 2004)

Hey guys how are you all doing? Well i'm really interrested in doing my transfer to AVN Tech, and i have seen and looked at all the information that i could find on the trade. But I would like to hear from a AVN Tech and tell me what, the trade and life is really like. So if anybody knows or has any information it would be greatly appreciated. Also any stories or anything would be great too. Well thanks in advance.  

Cheer's
FX


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## childs56 (15 Oct 2004)

I am in school becoming an AVN Tech right now. Things to remember are the course is now going to be around 16 months in length. You will not see your spec pay until you are fully 5's qualified about 4-5 years including school. Other then that its allright. Don't think the grass is any greener on the other side though. If you have anyother questions maybe I can help you out. Good luck


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## Scoobie Newbie (15 Oct 2004)

What do you mean its not greener??? 
I too have thought about OT to this trade.


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## platinumfx (15 Oct 2004)

Thanks for the info, and letting me ask you some questions.So why is the course being lenghtened, to 16 months? Do you know when this is going to take affect or has it already? Well i didn't know that we would be getting spec pay for this trade but it's nice to know that. So how far into school are you? Also what is it like, and how is borden. LOL. I have been told that it's pretty small. LOL. So if you can give me any other general or specific info that you think would helo. that would be great. Also how dose it work the school I mean. Is it like a real school, go from like 8-4 or something like that? Do you have alot of home work, or non at all. Well actually if you could tell me as much about the school as possible that would be great. Also do you have the weekends off to do what you want, or do you start off with restrictions for not being able to leave the base, for the first few weeks or something like that. Anyways any and all info that you can give would be great. Thanks again.


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## dan476 (14 Dec 2004)

Bump, Excellent questions about the course, CTD if you don't mind telling us.
thanks


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## childs56 (15 Dec 2004)

1. course is longer to facilitate better traiining of the mechanics. They realized that 6 months of training was not enough to teach a person off the streets how to be a mechanic. 2. all courses from now on will be the 16 month course. 3 . i am into month 10 of the course. so far we have covered alot of materiel. Some of it has been relevent some hasn't. I will say it has been a pita for us as we are the first course to go threw, so things have been pretty bad from errors in the books, to the wrong info, being pulled off the floor because of lack of qualified staff, to the next day being allowed to work with the same staff. to equipment shortages. Most of this will not be corrected for some time to come, they still have not finished writting all the course and arestill only a PO or two ahead of us. Like usuall higher ups never accounted for the right amount of tools and equipment, so we have been plauged by time delays due to equipment. The Mcpls have been excellent and are doing their best to make a good job out of some one else's mess ups. 4. Borden is a sizable base, has an excellent gym and sport fields, They have a canex at the other end of the base, Toronto is only 1 hr away. Barrie is about 20 mins away. single quarters are kinda crappy but i have been in worse. 5 we march to school at 715 ready for class around 730 to 8. luch at 1130-1300. breaks are usually at 10 and 230. with small ones inbetween. weekends are off except when they require you for a parade which is very minimumal. it is cold in the winter and hot in the summer. We do pt every afternoon wednesday and also admin. We clean the hanger on friday. other then that not much more to say. If you do comehere prepare to be inspected every tuesday and roominspectino every sec thursday. all in all not to bad, things are pretty easy going. 
 hope that has helped you out alittle  more


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## dan476 (15 Dec 2004)

how about married guys? They live in pmq and all. whats up with the inspection for them? and how do they get to class? do they have to get to the shacks and then march from there?
Thats just category I am going to fall in so I'd like to know. As for every day PT do you get time for that or is it on your own? Also you are 10 mths into the course have you had anyone on your course fail or decide its not for them and quit?
Thanks again CTD


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## 9nr Domestic (15 Dec 2004)

Quote: how about married guys? They live in pmq and all. whats up with the inspection for them? and how do they get to class? do they have to get to the shacks and then march from there?
Quote:

It is my understanding that while on MOC training even married guys/girls live in Single Quarters, therefore you won't have to worry about this. I could be wrong but the military usually doesn't move your family and all your F&E until you are actually post out, so after your MOC training. Then you can have the fun of living in a PMQ.



(Sorry  I don't know how to quote properly)


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## childs56 (16 Dec 2004)

tuesday inspection is done at the hanger in dress of the day. Room inspections are carried out every second thursday, the married people living out form up on the bottom floor in Deu's and get inspected.  Yes as a married person you can get a pmq , you will be here for a 18 month posting. Plus they are having a single quarter's shortage. Pt is every wednesday afternoon from 2-330. admin time is from 1-2. Pt is done as the school and administered by PSP staff. Just circuit training. other then that you are on your own for pt. maried people meet at the shacks and march over with their course. Make sure you bring your family 18 months is a long time to be away from them. You do get some leave time, i wont say when because it will be differnt for each course. The school shuts down for christmas for about two weeks or so. we have had no failures, the Airforce has adopted a no fail policy just like the Army did. the tests are good , as long as you read over the materiel shouldnt have a problem passing. One guy has tried to leave for personalle reasons but back to the max pass situation. He is still here. hope i have answered more of your questions, any more then fire away.  I had wrote all of this few minutes before this and eraused it by accident, just though ti would let you know , take care and good luck


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## 9nr Domestic (16 Dec 2004)

Sorry for the miss information. I know that if I get this trade I will be leaving my family behind.  :'( Plus we will probably not be posted to the same place for a couple years.


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## childs56 (16 Dec 2004)

I wouldnt be sorry for the info you gave. As far as I thought all members stayed in the shacks untill they were done their QL3 also. Well i was proved wrong, the quality of life issues. I would think that your other halve is a 021 Arty,if that is so i hope you know about posting options are pretty limited. if that is the case then I would try to get a definate answer about maybe going to Gagetown. The postings for Avn are about 10 years so keep that in mind If you have any more questions about the course ask hopefully i can help answer them


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## 9nr Domestic (16 Dec 2004)

He is actually 031 Infantry. I know posting options are limited, but there is always hope. Plus he will probably OT to a different trade within the next 5 years.


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## childs56 (16 Dec 2004)

My ignorance for my assumption, I had my head up my but and was thinking the Artillery were the only ones their. Question how does your husbadn liek it their? I hope everything goes well for you.


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## Scoobie Newbie (17 Dec 2004)

I think it sucks ass.


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## aesop081 (17 Dec 2004)

CTD said:
			
		

> the Airforce has adopted a no fail policy just like the Army did.



Now thats a bunch of bull...........try telling that to the 2 guys who just failled off my basic aesop course and have to find themselves a new MOC !!!!!


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## 9nr Domestic (17 Dec 2004)

"Question how does your husband like it their?"

My husband is CFL and I see he spoke up for himself

In fact if he got a posting to Borden while I was taking courses, he would be more than happy. (He is originally from Hamilton, which is ~2 hours away)

I know he thought about an OT to AVN Tech so maybe he will end up on course too. Just as long as we are not on the same course it would be all good.


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## Scoobie Newbie (17 Dec 2004)

can't handle a little competition?


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## 9nr Domestic (17 Dec 2004)

Don't want to embarrass you  >


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## aesop081 (17 Dec 2004)

You guys............can't you just get along ???     jk

CFL......do it ......remuster...i was a 043 and i love the air force !!!! What a life i was missing.....lol


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## Scoobie Newbie (17 Dec 2004)

What was 043?

I'm somewhat (with my postion) happy right now but I can't be a ground ponder forever.  You airforce guys actually work for a living.


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## aesop081 (17 Dec 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> What was 043?
> 
> I'm somewhat (with my postion) happy right now but I can't be a ground ponder forever.   You airforce guys actually work for a living.



Combat engineer....it used to 041 field engineer when i got in but.......well, let's not go there !!


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## Scoobie Newbie (21 Dec 2004)

I hear they just redid the whole course from something like 6 months to 18.  Sounds tough and my math is the shits.


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## avn514 (2 Jan 2005)

Hows it going ........ just to clearify  YES the grass is greener on the other side...... finished my TQ3 at cfsate 3 years ago i am a remuster from the army... if you are 5's qualified  in a trade you will recieve Spec pay as soon as your are in borden...... as for married people..... you will be posted to borden and are intitled to a full move and a PMQ  downside is that you will not be able to live down town......

If you have any questions email me at work   hobbins.bj@forces.gc.ca

cheers


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## avn514 (2 Jan 2005)

I probably should have added that i am posted out at 407 Sqn in Comox BC  working on the CP-140

the grass is always green out here

 ;D


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## childs56 (2 Jan 2005)

the spec pay isuue is null and void. You will not receive your spec pay unitll you are 5's qual in the spec trade itself... new ruleing as of june or july of 04.  the course did go from 6 months to no less then 16 at this time and in the future shouldl be as high as 18 months in duration. If you qualifie for the trade i woudltnt worry about the math part to much. the way they have it set up is teach you the required skills. I hadnt even seen some of the math they gave us, but did fine on the tests. The most important thing for people to remember is that you will be in school for a large amount of time, and will have very few brakes, inbetween. Make sure you and your family are ready for the commitment it will take. Is the grass any greener on the other side? i wont say yes. It has a different shade of green though. Remember it is still the CF and it still has poor leaders and budget restraints. Your Sgt and WO's may have received their pos'n by default rather then merit.


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## aesop081 (2 Jan 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> the spec pay isuue is null and void. You will not receive your spec pay unitll you are 5's qual in the spec trade itself... new ruleing as of june or july of 04.



01 oct 04 is when the new policy came into effect.  I know this for a fact as i have the CANFORGEN right in front of me as i type.  I came into a spec trade prior to the new policy so i got to keep spec1 even though i am not qualified yet ( after they took it away and had to give it back). Check your facts before posting


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## childs56 (3 Jan 2005)

I will have to correct myself here, anyone comming into the trade after the date as per the canforgen are no longer intitiled to spec pay untill such tiem as the are 5's qual in their spec trade. for avn that will be about 3 years. excuse me for having the dates alittle out of wack. The last Canforgen i seen on it stated june or july 04. If you been to CFSATE you will know they rarley show you any info as info is power. I do not have access to the din so finding all the info is hard to come by. Some ammendments have been made to the canforgen. I think people have the point on the spec trade, thanks for clarifying that for me. like i said last time i seen it had said June or July. 
if we can put alll that BS aside.
If you could do me a favor and email me the Canforgen as i am having a problem with this point with the school I would appreciate it. 
Did you have to redress the matter, or did a memo clear up the matter. Just curious and would like any help you can provide on this matter. Like i said above the school has mixed feelings about allowing us info. If you can help great.


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## aesop081 (3 Jan 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> I will have to correct myself here, anyone comming into the trade after the date as per the canforgen are no longer intitiled to spec pay untill such tiem as the are 5's qual in their spec trade. for avn that will be about 3 years. excuse me for having the dates alittle out of wack. The last Canforgen i seen on it stated june or july 04. If you been to CFSATE you will know they rarley show you any info as info is power. I do not have access to the din so finding all the info is hard to come by. Some ammendments have been made to the canforgen. I think people have the point on the spec trade, thanks for clarifying that for me. like i said last time i seen it had said June or July.
> if we can put alll that BS aside.
> If you could do me a favor and email me the Canforgen as i am having a problem with this point with the school I would appreciate it.
> Did you have to redress the matter, or did a memo clear up the matter. Just curious and would like any help you can provide on this matter. Like i said above the school has mixed feelings about allowing us info. If you can help great.



All i di when i noticed that my pay had been cut and that they were clawing back all the spect pay they gave me since aygust is bitch to my course director, it then  wwent to the pay office, they got policy clarification from Ottawa.  Once this was done , we got our money back. We did not have to do a redress or memo to solve the situation.  I will scan the coanforgen and e-mail it to you ASAP.

Cheers


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## Swin435 (10 Jan 2005)

FX;

Let me start off by saying the "Grass IS greener on the other side, kind of a Kentucky Blue Grass".   I say this after spending 11 1/2 years in the army before I made my jump.   I left CFSATE in Dec03.   I was posted to 435 Sqn Wpg.   I like the trade, I come home happy.

As for married guys, when the course was 6 months long they encouraged you to leave the family at home.   However they did post mine and many others.   Unless the regulations have changed ( I haven't had to look them up in a while) any course over six months "can" be considered a posting.   With the length of the new course, this shouldn't be an issue.   

With regards to inspections and marching.   Every other Thursday I would be at the shacks for our DEU inspection. Every day you meet at the shacks and march as a group to class. 

To who ever was complaining about the books being wrong.   In some cases this is true, and you will find that most of your instructors will point this out.   So you know, the books that are wrong now are probably the same books that were wrong when I went through, and these were probably the same books that were wrong when previous courses went through before me.

All I can say FX is hopefully you enjoy it.   Study hard and you'll do fine.   Also when you get a chance start researching where you would like to go.   Think about what you want to work and see if there is a base that uses these aircraft where you want to live.   You may have to compromise but that is life.

Good Luck


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## platinumfx (11 Jan 2005)

Thanks for all of the information guys, I really appreciate it. Again thanks, I can't wait to see if I'm accepted. I don't see any reason as to why not, but ya never know. LOL Well I hope things goes well for everybody, and thanks again.


Cheers, 

FX


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## Scoobs (11 Jan 2005)

There used to be many more trades for airforce techs.  There are in fact only 4 MOC 500 trades now.  Three of them you can enter from right off the street, those being AVN, AVS, and ACS.  The 4th is NDT (non-destructive testing).  You have to be one of the previous three trades, but I can't remember which one(s) it is.  The reason the AVN course went from 6 months to 18 months was because the Airforce realized that an AVN tech could not be properly trained in only 6 months (lots of feedback from the units told them so).  It just wasn't possible to teach a tech what he needed to know in only 6 months what used to take the combined old trades much longer.  In fact, the 18 months is "still" shorter than the time it would take if someone would do all of the training for the other old trades.  
Every new course will have teething pains, but I do find that CFSATE tends to take forever to modify a course (same thing happened on my course).  You will find that even when you go to your unit after trg that there are alot of mistakes in the CFTOs, pubs, etc.  There will be constant messages coming out to correct the mistakes.  The difference in the Airforce is that you will be able to suggest and the changes will happen most of the time, but not all of the time.  I've done both sides of the coin, Army (only two years Reserve time) and Airforce.  You'll enjoy being an AVN tech, but will be frustrated at times.
With the Forced reduction in the mid-nineties, there is a large experience gap for techs with 10 to 15 years in.  It is a very good time to get into one of the 500 series trades as there will be a great need for higher ranks in 5 to 10 years.  Expect to see alot of promotions.

Later....


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Jan 2005)

1.  What is the sign. of Scoobs?

2.  Did I read that right that if selected for this course you can take your wife with you?


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## Swin435 (21 Jan 2005)

CFL;

It's in the CFAO's/QR&O's or whatever the new admin orders are called now.  When in doubt go to your clerk and confirm.  That's how I found out, I bugged the hell out of the clerks at the Strat's and the base orderly room.  

Hope this helps.


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## Scoobs (28 Jan 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> 1.   What is the sign. of Scoobs?
> 
> 2.   Did I read that right that if selected for this course you can take your wife with you?



CFL,

1.  I'm not sure what you are asking me.  My sign or signature?  

2.  For this question, I agree, you should ask your OR.  Some course will let you take your wife.  I believe that this course is now consdiered a posting.  That would allow you to bring her, but some postings have limitations on F and E, i.e. wife.


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## Magnumcharger (15 Feb 2005)

So, you want to be an AVN. Ask me about it, I won't blow any sunshine up your ass.


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## mbhabfan (15 Feb 2005)

I have been looking into it.  Do you know how long the current course is in length?  How hard is it to switch to civvy street later?  Would my wife and daughter be able to come to Borden for the length of course?

Thanks, hope this isn't too many questions magnumcharger


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## childs56 (15 Feb 2005)

course is about 18 months in length, yes you can bring your wife but must ask before you do and dont take no for an answer. as for civie street you still have to do work hours and some schooling. it wont be that hard to do. good luck


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## mbhabfan (15 Feb 2005)

as it stands now I have no plans to switch to civvy life, I was just checking to see about it in case....  Does anyone know how competitive avn tech is?  In that 18 months of courses what would the time off or holidays be?  As far as terms of service would my three years of obligatory service start after BMQ or not until fully trained(if so how many years)?


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## childs56 (16 Feb 2005)

right now we got 2 weeks off at Christmas and about 1 week off every six months or so to burn off leave. the three years is total service. The are discussing about going to a five year engagement instead of 3 because of the lenght of time to get trained. That hasnt happended yet. as for being competitive not to sure, they say do, but then agian from some of the people who are here seems as if they choose them by throwing a dart at a board. Like any other trade in the CF if they need bodys they will get people in, if things are full then it will be slow to get in. make sure you empress on the recruitor that you want to go AVn tech and  are real excited to do that job. read up on it and show a genuine interset for the trade. that goes along way to getting in.


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## mdh (16 Feb 2005)

Does anyone know how competitive avn tech is?  In that 18 months of courses what would the time off or holidays be?   

If you look under some of Kincanuk's posts under the recruiting forum I believe he had some information on this. IIRC most of the AVN techs had community college backgrounds in aviation as aeroengine mechanics. They had more openings for avionics technicians, cheers, mdh


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## dan476 (10 Mar 2005)

CTD,

hey man, just wanted to know how things are going in borden? Hows course comming along?


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## childs56 (11 Mar 2005)

i am off to bed now i will post tomorrow.


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## childs56 (12 Mar 2005)

Sorry about not responding, i have been taking care of room mate problems.  Well it is has been 13 months on course and we have about another 3 months left. the training aids still arnt here in full so all we have done is the same as the old course has for practicle training. The staff are all questionnig if this course has been benifical to us. originally we were suppose to have been having our log books written off here ( as much as possible) now that point seems mute as they are arguing as to if they are allowed to do that. So all and all we have been on a course that should have been max 12 months long, and that is even stretching it. it is taking 16. so the higher ups have taken what was a good idea and turned it into a farse. It only looks good on paper, as in real life it is a waste of 16 months of valuable training that could have been done at the unit. 
If you are remustering think hard about it, as this course is so uncertain now that if you can hold off for a year or two and see what actually happens here at CFSATE, they need to actually get all their training aids and tools and incorperate them before it will be benificial to the students. The study manuals have gotten worse as in written poorly, i never would have thought that was possible. but it has happened. I hope i havent painted to bleak of a picture for you or any one else. but right now the teething pains are tremendous and untill such time as the chain of command opens their eyes to the real situation it will continue to happen and degrade the training of new students. 

Think of this, would you want to fly in a helicopter that a person who is substandard worked on. And they passed him on because the numbers game is in full effect.

good luck


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## mdh (12 Mar 2005)

CTD,

Just curious about the failure rate on the course. Have there been a lot students lost so far? I remember you saying that some of the recruits to AVN Tech were less than impressive. Doesn't sound like it's been a very good experience to date.

cheers, mdh


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## childs56 (12 Mar 2005)

we have had a couple of guys fail three or more tests but they have said that every one will pass. they have gone out of their way to keep these guys on course. One was AWOL for 7 hours, no charge, cause he volunteered for some extra work,the other one has not had a good track record either, and in the army would have been kicked out for some serious reasons that i wont discuss here, this is  two  examples of the crap going on. The school CO wants max grads and i am sure that MR 1 CAD  and his buddys are also looking for this, everytime we have had a General or Colonel visit who is directly responsible for this course they have all told us what they wanted to hear and closed their ears to the truth.  I only wish General Hillier would visit and ask the staff and student how the 54 million dollar course is going (the amount of money that is being invested to lead the AVN tech's into the next century). I think he would be shocked as would alot of politicians to see the waste and lack of over all thought put into it. 
The qaulity of recruits is to be desired and the whole system needs to rethink if we want quantity or quality. right now we are getting quantity. Alot of this has to do with the actual higher echelon of the CF as a whole. to many people in charge who have forgotten what it is like to actually lead and have an efficient well trained memebers. This is unfortunate because their are alot of hard working peopel who get screwed because of it.This course and school is another example of what the old airforce was and needs to get away from.


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## mbhabfan (12 Mar 2005)

CTD, do you have any idea when the next course start date will be for AVN tech?


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## childs56 (12 Mar 2005)

Their is suppoose to be the first French course starting in April, as for the next English course, they seem to be saying after spring break sometime. I will try to find out the exact dates on monday.


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## mdh (12 Mar 2005)

> we have had a couple of guys fail three or more tests but they have said that every one will pass. they have gone out of their way to keep these guys on course. One was AWOL for 7 hours, no charge, cause he volunteered for some extra work,the other one has not had a good track record either, and in the army would have been kicked out for some serious reasons that i wont discuss here, this is  two  examples of the crap going on


. 

CTD,

Thanks for the insight, sounds kind of frightening though - I'm surprised that the air force would tolerate this considering how strict and demanding they are when it comes to pilot training - the ground crew element is just as critical,

hope it gets better,

cheers, mdh


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## dan476 (18 Mar 2005)

CTD,

So the course is 16 months eh? Did they say they were going to extend that to 18 months? Also what happends when you're done course? Do you have to do some OJT with your new unit?  As far as I understand what they did is malgomated QL3 and QL5 and made a 16 month course , am I correct? As for the spec pay I know rules changed lately and you have to have you QL5 before you get that, so is there still a QL5 and also how long is it?

thanks for the info man and keep us posted on the course, and any changes


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## belka (28 Mar 2005)

dan476 said:
			
		

> CTD,
> 
> So the course is 16 months eh? Did they say they were going to extend that to 18 months? Also what happends when you're done course? Do you have to do some OJT with your new unit?   As far as I understand what they did is malgomated QL3 and QL5 and made a 16 month course , am I correct? As for the spec pay I know rules changed lately and you have to have you QL5 before you get that, so is there still a QL5 and also how long is it?
> 
> thanks for the info man and keep us posted on the course, and any changes



I can answer a few of those questions.

As far as the course length, its up to 18 months, I started on March 2ndish, can't really remember, and I finish in September of 2006. After you are done your course, you get sent to a unit where you get on-type training on the specific aircraft you will be working on. Once you've completed that, you will be QL5 qualified, as far as I know. At first, you'll get qualified doing mostly servicing jobs on aircraft, cleaning, taxiing, and the sorts. Not really sure how long your QL5's are, but only after completion of the course, you'll get spec pay, which will only be an extra $300-400 per month.

As far as the course goes, its not really that demanding, well not yet it isn't. You usually get an idea of what the test questions are when you get your "homework" given to you. The instructors go through the material so much that you get the idea of the topic pretty quickly. 


 8)


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## dan476 (28 Mar 2005)

Hey,
Can you tell me when next course is going to start?


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## belka (28 Mar 2005)

dan476 said:
			
		

> Hey,
> Can you tell me when next course is going to start?



The next AVN course to start is in the beginning of April, not sure if there is one in May, but there is one in June.


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## dan476 (29 Mar 2005)

Hey,
How many candidates are usually on AVN Course and also on average how long does it take to be fully QL5 qualified


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## belka (29 Mar 2005)

dan476 said:
			
		

> Hey,
> How many candidates are usually on AVN Course and also on average how long does it take to be fully QL5 qualified



We have 14 on our course and I think that is the maximum. My guesstimation on how long it would take to be QL5 qualified is anywhere between 2.5 -3 years, mabye more.


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## childs56 (29 Mar 2005)

starting in april, (not sure the exact date) then every three weeks after that another   AVN course is to begin. In theory any ways. The fact that the Airforce does not have the ability to handle that many students in a proper military fashion is going to make for some interesting times, for the next year or so. Growing pains then the realiziation that they cannot carry on unless a major over haul of the schools way of day to day operations is done. Intersting way to run a school. good luck and maybe see. i still have another 3 months or so till i am suppose to be done, that is to be seen though.


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## X-Rigger (30 Mar 2005)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> There used to be many more trades for airforce techs.   There are in fact only 4 MOC 500 trades now.   Three of them you can enter from right off the street, those being AVN, AVS, and ACS.   The 4th is NDT (non-destructive testing).   You have to be one of the previous three trades, but I can't remember which one(s) it is.   The reason the AVN course went from 6 months to 18 months was because the Airforce realized that an AVN tech could not be properly trained in only 6 months (lots of feedback from the units told them so).   It just wasn't possible to teach a tech what he needed to know in only 6 months what used to take the combined old trades much longer.   In fact, the 18 months is "still" shorter than the time it would take if someone would do all of the training for the other old trades.



Hey Scoobs:

About the reason for the 18 month AVN course, you're pretty accurate.  Let me just add a little more clarity for other readers.  I was a reservist Airframe Tech from 92 to 03, so I was there when the AVN trades were still separate.  After the FRP, I had to retrain as an AVN Tech, thereby learning about aeroengine, electrical, air weapons and safety systems.  What we found at my former units (12 AMS, 434 Sqn) between, say 96 to 02, was that the apprentice (QL3 qual'd) AVN techs coming off the 6 month course had a good general knowledge base but did not have sufficicent training in any one area (i.e. jacks of all trades, masters of none).  This, coupled by the loss of corporate knowledge caused by the FRP, created all sorts of operational and training problems that have yet to be overcome.  Nowadays, those doing the training have barely more experience than those they are training.  Obvious problem, eh!  The restructuring of the QL3 course is designed to address that.  However, it'll be some time before we can gauge the success of this initiative.

By the way, NDT Techs traditionally had Airframe backgrounds, but I'm unsure what the present requirements are.

Cheers,

X-Rigger


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## mbhabfan (12 Apr 2005)

after Borden how much of a choice is there on postings?  Are they short of techs everywhere or are certain places shorter than others?  Do higher marks give you an advantage?  Before someone comes on here and beaks off about the CF priorities will come first, save it.  I am talking about after that.


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## childs56 (15 Apr 2005)

CFB Cold lake is what it seems for our first postings. for our entire course, I will write my opinion on this later on dont have time now. it has to do with the 18's dispersed around the country


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## mbhabfan (17 Apr 2005)

so does anyone know what a normal length of posting that first one would be?  Just curious.


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## childs56 (17 Apr 2005)

10 years


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## Krazy-P (11 May 2005)

I am currently a journeyman aviation tech up in cold lake, i like it so much that i am going back to the infantry.lol  good luck with it.


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## mbhabfan (11 May 2005)

Krazy p care to expand on that for us?


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## Krazy-P (11 May 2005)

the airforce sucks.  just personal opinion.


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## aesop081 (11 May 2005)

Krazy-P said:
			
		

> the airforce sucks.   just personal opinion.



and mine is that a bad day in the air force is better than any good day i have had in the army.......


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## mbhabfan (12 May 2005)

Krazy P if you can't elaborate a little more than that, I am sorry I asked.  I was looking for an intelligent answer...talk to you later.  I am guessing the airforce is similar to anything else in life it is what you make of it.


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## Krazy-P (12 May 2005)

Sorry for lashing out, was having a bad day.lol  the airforce isnt that bad, you actually have to use your brain, not just brawn.  i have learned quite a bit in the airforce, it just isnt for everyone.  that and the location sucks, i am in cold lake.


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## Sam69 (12 May 2005)

Hey K-P,

Thanks for your last reply. I think it is important for people to remember that we all different strengths, aptitudes, and preferences. Just because a certain individual doesn't fit a particular mold doesn't necessarily mean that either the environment sucks or the individual sucks. Sometimes it is just a matter of a poor match.

The same can be said for the relationship between some people and their jobs - look at me... I'm still looking for a job that I can do half decently!!!  ;D That's the great thing about the CF, you can try something new every few years. Sooner or later you are bound to find something that is a good fit.

Cheers,
Sam


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## Krazy-P (12 May 2005)

Hey Sam,  very true, i to will eventually find a trade that i like.lol  after a tour or two with the infantry, i think i will be looking at another trade. maybe hulltech, comms research, theres a few that peak my interest. but while i am still somewhat young(29), i will get all the fun stuff out of the way.


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## avn007 (14 May 2005)

After 4 yrs as an avn , avs or acs you can OT to NDT. NDT is spec 2 pay after completing 5 tickets...thats another 4-5yrs of ndt-- on the job training. I cant wait,  I have few more years until I can OT.


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## X-Rigger (17 May 2005)

Sam69 said:
			
		

> That's the great thing about the CF, you can try something new every few years. Sooner or later you are bound to find something that is a good fit.



Well, it used to be that way.  I just had the new Terms of Service brief, and with respect to voluntary OT's you'll now owe 2 years over and above the time it takes to get qual'd in your new occupation.  Scary prospect, so plan your future wisely.  Can anyone elaborate more?

X-Rigger


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## dk (17 Jun 2005)

Just a question for AVN Techs...

I'm still in the application process, but just curious...

Someone (not an AVN Tech) told me you have to provide your own tools, and if they need replacing, they will be replaced by the CF.

Is this accurate? Thanks


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## aesop081 (17 Jun 2005)

dk said:
			
		

> Just a question for AVN Techs...
> 
> I'm still in the application process, but just curious...
> 
> ...



There is no truth to that whatsoever.......


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## dk (20 Jun 2005)

Thanks aesop081. I thought it sounded kind of weird.


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## mbhabfan (21 Jun 2005)

CTD

At what point did you and your course mates learn that you would be going to Cold Lake?  Are you all going there or are there exceptions?  How is your course going?


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## mbhabfan (21 Jun 2005)

also for any other avn techs if you had to chose where would you like to be posted and why?  Are some of the wings better than others as far as facilities are concerned?


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## childs56 (22 Jun 2005)

a few are of us are going to cold lake and the others are going to helicopter units and herc world. I would say how many to each but due to a little security i wont. Really this course is designed for the F18 world. Even though all we got to do was look at the F18, we worked on the tutor mainly with some helicopter theory on the Lab's and an old twin Huey. But you could tell the main focus was towards F18's. Only the future will tell as to what and how the course develops. We technically finished 2 weeks ago and  now carrying out training to which we never did due to lack of training aids at the time. I wont say what we are actually doing as their are prying eyes on here that don't look to kindly to me posting about them. Needless to say when i use to kick the Gun box it was similar.  
I think as for postings and such if you actually get a choice in the future then it all depends on what you want . I mean most of the east coast guys want to go their and same for the west coast. A lot of the ex army guys want to go to Tac Hel. as for facilities. go to the bases web pages and look for your self. Depends on what you like doing and your style of life choice. I mean if you are into huge bars and raves cold lake or Pet may not be for you.


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## mbhabfan (22 Jun 2005)

thanks for the info.  As far as facilities I was referring to the shops and equipment for your trade.  How far into the 16 month course are you aware of where you are going after or can you talk about that?


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## childs56 (22 Jun 2005)

I am finished my course now and awaiting to go to Cold lake. Some time In July.


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## Diver Rob (4 Jul 2005)

Just curious to know what the chances of being posted to Halifax / Shearwater would be ? .. Wouldn't mind being attached to ships east for a few years.


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## mbhabfan (4 Jul 2005)

funny you mention that, it is my worst fear.  I don't want to be away from my family for that long at a time.  It is nice to see others with the desire to do it.  If I was 18 again it would be great but not now.


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## X-Rigger (22 Jul 2005)

Just a couple quick points...

First to clarify the tool question, personal tools are not allowed for use on CF aircraft for flight safety reasons (FOD hazard).  Secondly, regardless of where you may be stationed, the role of the Airforce is to not to provide jobs for people at home in Canada - it's to be able to deploy anywhere and carry out its assigned missions.  So with that in mind, you'll all be deploying and spending time under canvas at some point.

Cheers.


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## dk (22 Jul 2005)

Thanks X-Rigger and others.

Working in Hangars and home airports is great, but I personally hope to spend some time "under the canvas." That's if i get my first choice.


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## aesop081 (23 Jul 2005)

mbhabfan said:
			
		

> funny you mention that, it is my worst fear.   I don't want to be away from my family for that long at a time.   It is nice to see others with the desire to do it.   If I was 18 again it would be great but not now.



The go work for air canada !

You are not joining a discount airline here......This is the military, if you'll remember, and alot of times the job needs to be done in some far away land, far from freinds and family.  If that is your worst fear, you are joining the wrong line of work, no matter what age you are.

IF YOU ARE NOT DEPLOYABLE, YOU ARE NOT EMPLOYABLE


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## SierraAir (21 Sep 2005)

I don't think I have ever seen a topic about AVN's on board ship's and I have a few questions so here goes. If anyone here on the boards has ever been, it would be great to hear your advice.


I'm leaving for basic in a few days, then i'm off for my MOC course (AVN), but I was wondering if someone can get attached to a ship right out of their MOC training? I would really like to be an AVN on board before i'm actually settled down on land. How long is an AVN attached to the ship before they can go serve on a land squadron? If someone with experience in this field could fill me in on this stuff it would be appreciated a lot.


Thanks in advance!


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## SeaKingTacco (21 Sep 2005)

Sorry SierraAir- but you are going to have to spend a while ashore first at either 423 or 443 Sqn (I assume that you realize that only Sea King Techs go to sea...).  You need your POM (performance of maintenance) signed off first.  The reason for this is that bunks are in short supply aboard everything except the AORs and the Air Department onboard cannot afford to carry much in the way of trainees and still function.  A typical frigate det at sea has an MWO, a Sgt, 2-3 MCpls and and 6-7 Cpls for a total of 11 maintainers.  I seem to recall the split being 60/40 AVN/AVS, just because of the work load, but I may have that wrong.  I can only ever recall seeing a Pte tech at sea once- it was a local cruise and he didn't get to do much but sweep the hangar and fill one of the damage control positions for flying stations.
Now, that said, as soon as you arrive on Sqn, make it known to your Sgt and your MWO that you want to go to sea as soon as possible. I'm certain that your training package will be accelerated.

You will probably quickly run into those who would tell you to actively avoid sea duty and will give you all kinds of horror stories about life onboard.  Don't believe even half of them.  At sea, you will work harder then you ever have before in your life under some difficult conditions. You will be placed in danger on the deck as you work around a running helo on a pitching ship. You will also travel the world, make friends for life, have great adventures and gain a feeling of accomplishment that you never knew existed by helping to keep a 40 year old aircraft launching and recovering safely in some of the toughest flying conditions in the world.  

Welcome to naval aviation!


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## SierraAir (22 Sep 2005)

That should have clicked in my head that you needed to be signed off first before going to sea. It's something I would really like to do, so i'll just wait until i'm all said and done with everything first before I get to carried away. Thanks for the info SeaKingTacco.


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## Diver Rob (22 Oct 2005)

Well I'll be at CFSATE in January 06, 

Could someone please give some details on the daily routine and the type of accomodations to expect.  How many per room, inspections etc...

Thanks


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## Lav968 (22 Oct 2005)

As a guy who has been both in the Combat Arms and AVN I can tell you that the grass is greener.  Inspections are just a bit different.  They don't look for stupidness, just cleanliness basically and boots, easy enough really.  The attitude is more of a working environment oriented more towards furthering technical skill sets than military nonsense, although that can depend on your boss.  Just some points.


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## pteosborne (21 Jan 2006)

I'm waiting to start my QL-3 (avn) and am also looking forward to going to sea out of shearwater.
Although it probably wont be sea kings anymore by then.


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## pteosborne (10 Feb 2006)

I'm about to start my AVN tech training and I would prefer a posting to shearwater when I'm done.
I've heard that AVN's dont work on Cormorants because there under "warranty" and that the work is done by civies.
Any truth to that?
But the reason i'm writing is that soon the seakings will be replaced by the new cyclones and I wouldn't really want to go to Shearwater
to watch civies work on the choppers for me.
Could someone please enlighten me? ???


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## Good2Golf (10 Feb 2006)

Cyclone will be militraily maintained...Shearwater and Pat Bay are only the land-bases, there are the HELAIRDETs on CPFs, 280s and the Perserver (or is it Protecteur sailing now?) that all will have military technicians maintain the helicopters.

Cheers,
Duey


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## SeaKingTacco (10 Feb 2006)

Duey has it basically correct.  Cyclones will be maintained by military techs.  You will serve both ashore and on ship with the Cyclone.

Cormorants are maintained by IMP (ie civilian technicians)


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## 447RET (19 Feb 2006)

In 1974 I was stationed onboard HMCS Fraser as an Instrument/Electrical Tech on the Sea King,  it was a great experience, althouth I was out of my element in more ways than one (RCAF). I can tell you the Sea King and deployment made me a much  better tradesman and very confident in my abilities. Fly at it Kid it will be a Hoot.


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## 447RET (19 Feb 2006)

I wonder how many of them are retired Sea King techs?


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## pteosborne (31 Mar 2006)

thanks guys.


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## Hot Lips (6 Apr 2006)

I worked for IMP as their OH&S Nurse.  
Yes, they do indeed hold the contract for the Cormorants and probably 1/2 of the work force their are retired CF members.

Cheers


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## avn_bubbles (6 Nov 2006)

I have applied to AVN Tech and given recruit school by-pass, and have filled out the application and stat-dec for Common Law status, and was wondering if anyone might know how long it takes to get a PMQ in Borden after arriving there?  And I assume that I would be there before I brought my family with me and how long after I would arrive would they get to come with me.??


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## superhawk (8 Nov 2006)

Recently had to choose between two trades; AVS and AVN tech; what a choice!
Am a electromechanic in automated systems in the civi world, which has the best of both worlds without the adventure and the high tech title beside the fact that it's nearly impossible to get any stability with a civi company.
Have a question for anyone with some experience in any of the two trades and it's as follows "Electrically speaking which part of the plane does the AVS tech stop at and AVN tech take over?", i.e is the solenoid that activates any hydraulic component on the plane an AVN job or AVS, my guess AVN, but would like to get more info.


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## bison33 (8 Nov 2006)

Depends on the fleet.....but in herc world, taterheads (AVS) now do AC/DC up to the generator...but they won't change them. Lights are an AVS thing also...used to be Avn. But Avn still do electrical related to an engine or airframe specific part....meaning, a solenoid on an airframe part is done by an Avn type.............In Griffon world, the Avs pretty much does everything with a cannon plug, as far as repairs anyways.....Seaking world, when I was there, Avn did all the old IE trade stuff.  But with the lack of knowledge for new Avn types, no poet for Avn and former IE techs diminishing, Avs are taking over that role........But like I said...depends on the fleet. Each fleet has different trains of thought on what the taterheads do in respect to the old IE job that was given to the Avn when the trades were merged. Want to get dirty, Avn........want to stay clean and watch star trek at work, Avs   But seriously, it's up to you. Anything else, ask away...I used to be AE, AVN and now an FE.


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## superhawk (9 Nov 2006)

Thanks for your hasty response Bison33, much appreciated. Forgive my lack of knowledge on all military abreviations, am I right in deducting that you were a former AVN tech remustered to AVS tech i.e FE?
With your experience would you say that AVS is more high tech than AVN, especially with the new Hercs and C-17(globemasters) coming into service and how much time monthly would you say an AVS tech spends in a lab as opposed to in the aircraft?
Understanding that it may be difficult to quantify time monthly, any examples are welcome.
Thanks ahead of time.


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## bison33 (9 Nov 2006)

No........never an AVS tech....I was an AVN tech but now a Flight Engineer. As for a lab type workplace, depends on where you'd end up. Somewhere like Cold Lake would have AVS labs....a small unit, most likely not. And as a new guy, you'd end up in a servicing/snags enviroment first....but you'd do rotations through different sections as part of your training. As for having the cushy day job, like AVS labs, you could end up doing a year up to a few years in that role. All depends where you'd end up.

As for high tech, depends on what you consider high tech. A shiny glass cockpit or composite prop blades. Both trades require to use your noggin for troubleshooting but AVN is more demanding physically(also the busier of the two more of the time) and both are getting more high tech, though AVS is still traditionally, the more high tech of the two.  If I were a recruiter and with your background, I'd lean you more to AVS than AVN....after offering you any navy trade   Saying that now........interested in running up fixed wing planes, getting dirty ripping out landing gear and so on....or more the keep clean, change a box type? AVS for the latter and AVN for the former. 

And when you see a recruiter, be firm in your choices...don't let them sell you on the "go infantry/navy then you can always apply for a trade reassigment down the road" line. You may have to wait longer for your choices but call the bluff. This applies if you only want AVN/AVS and nothing else interests you. Gotta run for now..........anything else, ask away.


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## superhawk (9 Nov 2006)

Thanks again. Your insight solidified my initial perspective on both trades as for FE I know you can only re-muster into that trade via AVN.
I recently spoke to my recruiter he tells me that sometimes AVN techs do the job of a AVS and vice versa is this valid or a sales pitch, and is there such thing as an electrical specialized AVN tech? meaning working more on electrical than mechanical.
In terms of all gse equipment am I right in assuming that AVN tech also do all repairs.(Ground Support Equipment), i.e cargo loaders, H.V.A.C. units, generators e.t.c.
Talk to you soon.Cheers.


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## cp140tech (9 Nov 2006)

The only fleet I have experience on is the CP 140/A.  I'm AVN, I've spent a few years in a 2nd/3rd line shop environment, I've been working on the propulsion side of the trade in 1st line for the last year and a half.  

  
  Bison33 has it right on the mark, it really depends on the type of work that you are most interested in.  AVS techs don't spend a lot of time doing repair work.  Their systems on this aircraft are complicated, with new upgrades coming down the pipe.  When they get snags, it generally results in swapping out a box and running a functional... some functionals are several hours.  The guys in labs here rip boxes apart and do some fairly detailed work I am told, but being AVN I've never spent any time up there.  The joke is that they are paid for what they know, not what they do.  The learning curve on this aircraft for them seems to be fairly steep, with some pretty bright young guys taking several years before they become proficient.  Most AVS here seem to need a good 5 years or so before they become go-to guys.  AVS techs here are split into Tactical and Navigation specialties, some switch sides after a few years in one area.

  The AVN side generally involves a lot more 'work'.  Getting your hands dirty, hydraulic fluid, fuel, all that good stuff.  The one thing that we are losing is real electrical troubleshooting ability, few guys are good at it... many shy away when you pull out the big wiring diagrams.  There is no shortage of complexity for you on this airframe is that's what you're looking for.  We still handle power generation and the electrical systems that control the engines, prop etc.  AVN streams into Flight Systems or Propulsion specialties here.  If you're interested in career progression, give some consideration to the AVN side, with a strong background in electrical, it would be easy for you to shine once you get to a squadron.    Either way, I think you'll really enjoy yourself.

   I have never been asked to help out AVS techs, except for basic stuff while deployed...  their jobs aren't labour intensive.  As for AVS helping with AVN tasks, very uncommon.  We sometimes bring one out to sit left seat for a ground run, or while deployed they lend a hand...  but that's about it for this squadron anyway.  As for AMSE and other ground support equipment, vehicle techs do the servicing and repair of those here, with one or two reserve AVN techs helping out a few days a month.  I can't say if that's forces wide.

   Any specific questions, feel free to PM me, I'll help you where I can.


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## JDMCRX (9 Nov 2006)

I was a AVN for 2 years liked it but was going to get posted to cold lake. AVS is a good trade too but from all my friends your just a parts changer??


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## aesop081 (9 Nov 2006)

JDMCRX said:
			
		

> I was a AVN for 2 years liked it but was going to get posted to cold lake. AVS is a good trade too but from all my friends your just a parts changer??



 :

Well...its takes alot of work and a strong head on your shoulders......sometimes a few hours of trying things out in order to figure out what part to change.  You never worked on a CP-140's tactical systems have you ?


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## cp140tech (9 Nov 2006)

JDMCRX said:
			
		

> I was a AVN for 2 years liked it but was going to get posted to cold lake. AVS is a good trade too but from all my friends your just a parts changer??



  We're all just parts changers.... anybody can swap parts, it's finding and changing the right parts that requires talent.


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## superhawk (9 Nov 2006)

Am greatfull for all input into this subject matter from all parties. Thanks.
What can one expect to do on his first year of ojt as a AVN tech?Heard that there is a log book that has to get filled out; qualified; on all aspects of the trade, is that valid?


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## cp140tech (10 Nov 2006)

I'm not sure if the new guys are still getting apprentice log books to fill out or not.  There used to be a blue book where you recorded tasks that you had performed, everybody spent 18-24 months on an apprentice rotation.  After completion of which you would be loaded on a type course.

  The new folks here in Greenwood are all being placed into a technical training flight.  Once there, they all receive the same standard of instruction in servicing and elementary type tasks.  After a few months in TTF, they are placed on a type course.  Under this new system, new techs are trained and able to sign 'rectified by' for the work they perform much more quickly than before; average time seems to be well under a year.  On the surface it seems to be an improvement, time will tell once we see how the new folks pan out on the flight line. 

  The new AVS guys have a similar system, but it seems to be taking longer to get them through the training system here, I'm not sure why.

  I have no idea what other wings have in place for the new techs.


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## aesop081 (10 Nov 2006)

cp140tech said:
			
		

> The new AVS guys have a similar system, but it seems to be taking longer to get them through the training system here, I'm not sure why.



Losing the IAT ( intergrated avionics trainer) in the Hornell center while AIMP block III is being installed probably has somehting to do with it.


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## SnakeTech (10 Nov 2006)

As an AVS Tech, I feel that I need to dispel a few myths.  I was originally a CRS Tech so that is where my back ground is.  

First, FE’s, which I have many as friends, are jack’s of both trades but masters of none.  Even though it is not public, the FE trade is now open to AVS Tech.  As an AVS Tech to go FE all you need is a waver from your unit FE Lead. The first AVS Tech to go FE is up in Yellowknife on the Twin Otter.

Second, being called a taterhead is a new one for me.  Fraggle or Gashie is what I’m used to  , Greasy Paw  .

Third, as for being a clean trade, that depends on the aircraft that you work on.  As an AVS Tech on the Buff (CC115), we routinely help out on everything from engine changes to brake changes.  Here it is not uncommon for AVS to be qualified to do AVN A, B, AB and PI.  

And lastly, we only get to watch Star Trek when the AVN’s aren’t watching NASCAR.

But serially, AVN or AVS, you can’t go wrong.  They are both good trades, but the work is only as good as you make it and the people that work with you.


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## bison33 (10 Nov 2006)

Hahahahahha......come on snake, nascar?.......AVN are too busy to watch TV  But superhawk, snake is right about cross quals....even on bigger airframes, AVS can get qualified AVN checks and vice versa. And my clean trade comment, well, I won't retract it but in my last Sqn before I remustered, we had some fraggles who would come help us do engine changes, etc.....more to keep busy than anything else. 

On a side note.....the AVS guys who are FE's were formerly IE techs who went AVS. No die hard AVS in the FE trade yet but it will change next year and no waiver required. Will be interesting to see how many die hard AVS apply as the basic FE course will be made longer.  Snake, the guy in 440, we were on our basic FE together.

Either trade is good. You do have a tough choice to make.


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## superhawk (10 Nov 2006)

How long is the exisiting FE course and by how much will it be extended?
Okay, so FE is Flight engineer, would love to know what IE is.
As you all have witnessed the times of change in respect to trade content and taskings does anyone forsee in the future a possibility of AVN techs taking certain specialty trainning courses that are now strictly AVS and vice versa.
In the pamphlet that was given out to me by recuiting under basic moc trainning it lists flight controls, is it safe to say that as a AVN tech I will be working in the cockpit at times?
P.S. Thanks to all who contribute, really appreciate your time.


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## cp140tech (10 Nov 2006)

IE is short for instrument electrical,  usually referred to as electricians.  It is one of the old trades that no longer exists due to the amalgation into AVN, AVS, and ACS.  I believe the old IE techs had the option of going AVS or AVN when the trades changed.

  I don't think you'll see AVN taking on any AVS specialties, some fleets are looking at giving power generation to AVS, but who can say really.  There are functions which are referred to as elementary taskings that anyone can be signed off on, things like A and B checks, simple things that don't require specific courses.  There really is very little crossover between the 2 trades here in 14 AMS, perhaps in other squadrons, but not here.

  You would likely spend a little time doing work in the cockpit no matter which of the 2 trades you select.


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## superhawk (11 Nov 2006)

Would be awesome to get some examples of A and B checks from both trades.


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## superhawk (5 Dec 2006)

Well I got some examples of A,B,C,D checks off the internet civi side which gave me a pretty good undrstanding to what the expression entails.
Finally went with AVN as my primary choice and AVS as secondary and my name was sent out for a merit list for trade qual.
Last time I spoke to my recruiter he said that AVS is priority 2 versus AVN which is priority 7.From what I deduct I will probably end up in what the forces need most which will be AVS as you need more schooling; i.e. fewer possible candidates; this also from the last available openings in each trade that was mentioned.
Wanted to know if anyone knows when the next scheduled AVS course will start or AVN for that matter.From what I hear most likely March 2007.Can anyone shed some light?


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## aesop081 (5 Dec 2006)

superhawk said:
			
		

> Well I got some examples of A,B,C,D checks off the internet civi side which gave me a pretty good undrstanding to what the expression entails.
> Finally went with AVN as my primary choice and AVS as secondary and my name was sent out for a merit list for trade qual.
> Last time I spoke to my recruiter he said that AVS is priority 2 versus AVN which is priority 7.From what I deduct I will probably end up in what the forces need most which will be AVS as you need more schooling; i.e. fewer possible candidates; this also from the last available openings in each trade that was mentioned.
> Wanted to know if anyone knows when the next scheduled AVS course will start or AVN for that matter.From what I hear most likely March 2007.Can anyone shed some light?



"A" check = After flight
"B" check = Before flight
"A/B" check = turn around check

no "C" or "D"


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## Popurhedoff (5 Dec 2006)

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> "A" check = After flight
> "B" check = Before flight
> "A/B" check = turn around check
> 
> no "C" or "D"



Not true... CD after 12 years


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## superhawk (6 Dec 2006)

Cdnavigator, there are such things as c and d checks civi side, has to do with not daily or monthly but more like yearly or after so many hours of flight. Did not keep the internet address but if you do a "Google" search under "A,B checks(aviation)" you will get more than one company that offer that service. Quality Aviation Inc. I believe offers it.
Thanks for the definitions, military side.


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## aesop081 (6 Dec 2006)

superhawk said:
			
		

> Cdnavigator, there are such things as c and d checks civi side, has to do with not daily or monthly but more like yearly or after so many hours of flight. Did not keep the internet address but if you do a "Google" search under "A,B checks(aviation)" you will get more than one company that offer that service. Quality Aviation Inc. I believe offers it.
> Thanks for the definitions, military side.



I was only refering to military aviation...i couldnt give a rat's behind what civvy aviation does.......as long as they stay out of my airspace  ;D

Periodic inspection would be what is done to our birds after so many flying hours....


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## superhawk (6 Dec 2006)

Heard that some civvy companies work on military aircraft, can you confirm that?


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## aesop081 (6 Dec 2006)

superhawk said:
			
		

> Heard that some civvy companies work on military aircraft, can you confirm that?



Well it is......

CP-140/A TLIR is done by IMP in Halifax.  All aircraft fleets in the CF have some form of contractor support somewhere in the maintenance process.  The CH-149 Cormorant is maintained by IMP on the line at its operating bases.


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## SnakeTech (7 Dec 2006)

FYI, CC-144 Challenger Executive Jet and CC-150 Polaris Air Bus are also maintained by civvies. Transport Canada maintains the Challenger and Air Canada looks after the Air Bus.


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## superhawk (7 Dec 2006)

So I guess civvies are all over your airspace there cdnavigator....HA...ha...(Just a bit of humour). Thanks for all the info guys.
What exactly are the civvy's doing that the military cannot do? Recently finished a contract for Boeing and they tell me that there are 4 C-17 already on order does anyone know where they will be assigned? My guess a squadron out of CFB Trenton, let me know.
Cheers.


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## aesop081 (7 Dec 2006)

superhawk said:
			
		

> So I guess civvies are all over your airspace there cdnavigator....HA...ha...(Just a bit of humour). Thanks for all the info guys.
> What exactly are the civvy's doing that the military cannot do? Recently finished a contract for Boeing and they tell me that there are 4 C-17 already on order does anyone know where they will be assigned? My guess a squadron out of CFB Trenton, let me know.
> Cheers.



In the case of the CP-140, civvy contractor provides TLIR...thats "third line inspection and repair".  It amounts to manufacturer support for complex refurbishement and repair of the aircraft throughout its life cycle. First and second line maintenance and repair is done by military technicians in Greenwood and Comox.  For the CH-149, IMP provides all maintenance and servicing.  IIRC, it was decided to go this route and the aircraft will not deploy anywhere outside Canada, so why have military technicians work on it if they wont be deployable ? Its not a question of "can't do" but more of a question of "having better things to do"  IMHO


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## dan_282 (10 Dec 2006)

just a few questions about these jobs...

1. are they both NCM only?

2. id like to work on fighters, but fighters only...do I have any say in this matter? 

3. I live in alberta, would that help me return to cold lake where id like to be stationed?

4. do these guys working on fighters get to hop rides? if so, how often?

5. whats the peak salary?

thanks


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## aesop081 (10 Dec 2006)

dan_282 said:
			
		

> just a few questions about these jobs...



OK



> 1. are they both NCM only?



Yes



> 2. id like to work on fighters, but fighters only...do I have any say in this matter?



No.  They will send you where they need people.  Even if you start out on fighters, you wont stay there your entire career. 



> 3. I live in alberta, would that help me return to cold lake where id like to be stationed?



No. They send you where they need people.  You living in Alberta means squat.  If they are realy hurting for techs in freezeyourassoff, NWT......thats where you're moving.



> 4. do these guys working on fighters get to hop rides? if so, how often?



I know a few that have but it doesnt seem to be common.



> 5. whats the peak salary?



Salary is tied to rank and trade......do yourself a favour and go to the recruiting website and look



> thanks



You're welcome


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## eurowing (10 Dec 2006)

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/news/2005/09/07_e.asp

Dig around in the Air Force site.

Are they NCM only?  Do you mean are AVS and AVN NCM trades, yes they are.  

Any say in the matter?  Some ... possibly or even perhaps.  But not likely.  If there is a shortage in a unit that needs your trade a travelling you will go.

Cold Lake is usually short techs and if you say you want to be there then you have a better chance.

Yes they can get rides.  Better chance if you are all A level qualified, you could get flown in the back seat for a quick fix of a stranded ac. Hmm, I was in Cold Lake 12 years.  3 rides, all F5's. Could have flown in an 18, but I think they are ugly.

Peak salary, I wouldn't worry about getting there for say..... 20 years minimum.  EDIT - By this I mean it will likely take at least 20 years to make CWO.  I do however,know a couple that made it in 18.  They were and are exceptions.

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/news/2005/09/07_e.asp  More info here
EDIT - I gotta learn that quote feature.  cdnaviator must have posted seconds before me.


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## Sparkplugs (22 Dec 2006)

I know the next AVN courses are starting January 9th and again on Feb 27th.  Every couple of months there's been a new one starting up, same with AVN, so they're moving us cattle out pretty quick.  I'm starting on the 9th Jan course, so if you need any info as I go along, let me know through PM if you like.  =)

(edited for my atrocious spelling.)   :-X


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## superhawk (26 Dec 2006)

Hey Sparkplugs,
 Keep me posted on how the course is, i.e. size of course and what the general schedule is like (P.T.) and content.
 Cheers.


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## Sparkplugs (26 Dec 2006)

superhawk said:
			
		

> Hey Sparkplugs,
> Keep me posted on how the course is, i.e. size of course and what the general schedule is like (P.T.) and content.
> Cheers.



We have 17 on the avn class that started in November, 15 on the 9 Jan course, and so far as I see, 14 on the 27 Feb course, although changes can still be made on that one, (and likely will be) before then, so that will probably go up to 15 or 17.  I know we start with common core (avn, avs, and acs all take it,) which is about 6 months long, and then we move onto the electronics portion, which is usually 12-14 weeks, although they are trying to get it down to 3-4 weeks, so we'll see.  I'll keep ya posted.


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## superhawk (27 Dec 2006)

Do you by any chance have names with those numbers? or more likely serv.#.
Let me know.


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## Good2Golf (3 Jan 2007)

superhawk said:
			
		

> Do you by any chance have names with those numbers? or more likely serv.#.
> Let me know.



Superhawk, this should be done by PM, if it is going to be done at all.  Anything relating to names, and especially service numbers, is considered a PERSEC issue and does not go on in the open.

Army.ca Conduct Guidlines

...specifically 


> You will not post sensitive or non-public information.



G2G


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## superhawk (3 Jan 2007)

Roger that G2G. Don't want to get anyone in hot water.What is PM exactly?


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## Good2Golf (3 Jan 2007)

superhawk said:
			
		

> Roger that G2G. Don't want to get anyone in hot water.What is PM exactly?



PM = Personal message, Superhawk.  

Just click on the Username of the person you want to chat with, scroll to the bottom of their profile page, then select "Send this person a PM".  C'est tout!

Cheers,
G2G


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## DiverDownDee (15 Jan 2007)

Hi .. Not sure if you found any of this information out or if in fact you are already be in Borden.

Please advise if you still need the info?

Thanks


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## Bald Eagle (17 Jan 2007)

superhawk said:
			
		

> Wanted to know if anyone knows when the next scheduled AVS course will start or AVN for that matter.From what I hear most likely March 2007.Can anyone shed some light?



+1 for AVS ... anyone? I can't seem to find the info on the CFSATE(?) website.


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## airiedd (9 Apr 2007)

Instrument Electrical...or some thing like that, they dealt with the wiring, commonly called "wire pullers" before the trade merge.  Something that has not been mentioned in all the discussion is that if you have a desire to work with Aircraft Weapons and explosives in general you will have to choose AVN.  The only Air Force trade that does Explosive Ordinance Disposal (EOD) work, and works on the Weapons Systems in AVN.  In the CF-18 fleet the AVN trade has been further broken down into 3 'streams'.  Propulsion, Flight, and Weapons/Safety Systems.  Within the W/SS trade stream you will need some electrical background as the AVS trade has yet to embrace the fact that they are 'officially' responsible for the boxes involved in the Weapons System, probably because it is hard to separate the electrical components from the rest.  The wpns system is integrated into and with too many other systems. Just another short note.  If you are interested in working on fast, cool jets come work on the CF-18, if you are looking to work on something that has the capability of maybe helping or changing the world or someones life and giving you some job satisfaction...find something else in the service to work on.  The CF-18 does not deploy very often (twice in its service life so far) and the pilots all think that they are Tom Cruise in Topgun.


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## Sparkplugs (9 Apr 2007)

Alrighty, here's what I know right now.  Couldn't tell you about the AVS stuff, because they all start off in Kingston and I'm not there.  But as far as AVN goes, they've loaded all the courses for the next few months.  There's one starting in May, already loaded, and the next one is loading for mid-July.  We've just lost 3 people off of our course, and gained 4.  This is a bit disconcerting, I know we're just numbers, but to pull off 3 students, who were doing really well, and replace them with 4 people who have failed off the course already, well, it's hard to deal with sometimes.  Now the people who have been pulled have to wait until May and July, respectively, to get back on course.  No one is failing our course yet.  We've had a couple exam failures, but they've all done really well on the re-writes.  We have finished off Common Core, and are now into the BET portion of the course.  

The BET portion is basic electronics training, and it has replaced NIDA.  The BET side is 10 days long right now, and goes directly into your wiring and instrumentation portions of the AVN trades course right after the 10 days are up.  It's definitely been pared down since the NIDA days.  Our course is the first one being guinea-pigged for this BET thing, and so far, so good.  

The course is not incredibly difficult, but most people in the class spend lots of time studying.  The worst part of everything is still being stuck in shacks, when we were supposed to be moved into mods ages ago.  But you deal with it, crazy roomies or not.  I can't wait for July when I get my new pay incentive!  Then I can quit one of my other two bonus jobs.  Truck payments suck, and going from a high-paying lumber mill job to a no-hook private salary is painful to the extreme.  But the other jobs are not bad.  Well, one isn't, anyway.  I pack parachutes at a local drop zone, which I love, and it gets me off the base for awhile, which you definitely need sometimes.

Anyway, since that's where we're at right now, I can't say anymore  because I don't know it.  Anything you need to ask though, PM or email me.

Cheers, Jen


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## Pavillion (7 May 2007)

Hey guys I'm on My way to becoming a AVN and I Was wondering what are the changes in going to Gander (NFLD) or Goose Bay (LAB). I would rather go to Gander but Goose bay would do also.. 

Cheers 
Pav..AVN to be..

Hourclock sucks to by the way his here now...


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## Avro_Arrow_1976 (9 May 2007)

Chances of going to Gander in AVN are 0. They only have Comorant helicopters and no AVN's work on them, only civilian maintenance, company called IMP. Your chances of getting Goose Bay are very slim. 444 Squadron is small, they fly the Griffon. It is an isolated posting, and won't have the personnel to do training that will be required. No matter what they tell you in Borden, you're not ready to be qualified on a CF aircraft for some time.


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## Pavillion (10 May 2007)

Thank you very much for the Info. So I guess i'll have to put in for greenwood then maybe thats pretty close to Newfoundland.. Again Thank you for your time in replaying to my post..


Pav..

AVN wanny be...


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## childs56 (10 May 2007)

18 months or less to be qualified Journeyman on a F18.


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## Garry (20 May 2007)

Spent 8 years in Goose- had a ball.

Small, close knit community. Not much going on anymore (lost the fighters). Excellent winters- 16+ feet of snow per year, unreal snowmobiling. Great hunting, fishing like you wouldn't believe. If you go, bring a 4 x 4 truck (not an SUV), a long track snowmobile, and an 18 foot aluminum boat. Buy a tent and woodstove when you're there. 

As my wife pointed out: "27 stores, and one of them isn't a sporting goods store".

I didn't know we had 27 

Cheers-Garry


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## chrisf (4 Jul 2007)

Greetings.

So I'm looking at applying to the regs (Currently a sig op resevervist) as an AVN tech, or an AVS tech.

I was wondering how much lee-way AVN techs generally have as far as choice of postings go? As I'm looking to get posted to the east coast, working with helicopters, preferably tac hel, but sea kings/cyclones/whatever I'm happy with... just looking for helicopters and the east coast...

Further, does anyone know how transferable AVN/VS tech trades are to the civvie equivilant? I've heard tales of civillian companies hunting for ex military AVN/AVS techs, then paying them peanuts...


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## Rowshambow (5 Jul 2007)

Not sure right now, but tommorow afternoon i'll ask some of the guys at 408 Sqn, when I get to work.


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## RetiredRoyal (7 Jul 2007)

pm sent re: transferability


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## cp140tech (8 Jul 2007)

I can't give you much info regarding walking on to civvie street, it seems that everybody who makes the jump has a different experience.  The guys who settle for mediocre coin with civvie employers are usually content to remain where they are (geographically)and use their pension to top up their salary, as an alternative to getting posted.

  For postings, it seems to depend on the year.  A few bases are consistently short bodies, and need top up.  Others are year to year, the career managers will fill holes where they appear depending on the manning priorities of the different units.  Historically, Tac Hel has been a really tough gig to get when you're new to the trade, not that it doesn't happen, but it seems to be rare.  I wish I could give you a more definite answer, but it's tough to predict.

  Any other questions about the trades, feel free to pm me.


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## hank011 (11 Jul 2007)

Avro_Arrow_1976 said:
			
		

> Chances of going to Gander in AVN are 0. They only have Comorant helicopters and no AVN's work on them, only civilian maintenance, company called IMP. Your chances of getting Goose Bay are very slim. 444 Squadron is small, they fly the Griffon. It is an isolated posting, and won't have the personnel to do training that will be required. No matter what they tell you in Borden, you're not ready to be qualified on a CF aircraft for some time.


103 has no AVN techs???? I know of 2 for sure, should I go tell them that they dont exist? They dont work on the Cormorant but they are still needed.


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## Avro_Arrow_1976 (11 Jul 2007)

Those two are prob posted at 103 SQN in the ALSE shop working on life support equipment, or some sort of AMCRO role. For you non aviators, AMCRO is the Aircraft maintenance/records section. There are no AVN techs that actually work on the Cormorant helicopter, that is done by IMP technicians (most are former AVN, or AVS air force techs). But as I said there could be techs working on ALSE equipment. The chances of a new tech being posted there would be 0. You need to learn aircraft systems, and get experience as a journeyman before one of those postings.


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## Sparkplugs (19 Sep 2007)

Just a small bit of info here...  I'm in Borden, 4.5 months away from graduating the AVN program...  We've been keeping track of who's going where and here's what it seems to be at:

Cold Lake:  You want to go?  You probably will.  Don't want to go?  You probably will anyway.

Bagotville:  same as above.

There have been a few lucky people go to Comox...  Shearwater's been a big one lately too.  They've accepted a couple people in the past few months to Petawawa, as well as a couple to Winnipeg, one to Edmonton, and some to Gagetown.  

The trend is Cold Lake, as we all know, they need tons of techs out there.  

And the weird thing has been that the top students are not necessarily getting their choices.  Some classes, almost everyone gets one of their three choices, another class, no one gets what they pick. 

I hear back on my choices in a few weeks, I'll let you know how it goes with my class.

Also, any questions on the AVN course, either the new one or old one, ask away...  I'm on the pilot (ie: experimental) course that's getting half of each.


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## armyvern (19 Sep 2007)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> And the weird thing has been that the top students are not necessarily getting their choices.  Some classes, almost everyone gets one of their three choices, another class, no one gets what they pick.



Perhaps it's a new approach to promoting _Teamwork_?? Only the top _class_ gets their posting choices??  :-X


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## Rusty_Poth (20 Sep 2007)

Most likely you will end up in Cold Lake, we spent almost 18 years there! And where did I ask to go when I was on my remuster engine course? Greenwood! I asked for Greenwood for years but I stayed in Cold Lake. 

They send you where they need you, remember you signed up for the Military! If they have a hole out there that needs plugging they plug you in it, they do the politically correct honourable thing by "asking you" where you would prefer to go then they give you the opposite of what you want. Cold Lake is once again a very popular hole to be plugged up for some strange reason, having been there done that I have full knowledge of what is going on................

BTW we were pretty happy with having lived in Cold Lake for such a long period of time.


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## pteosborne (28 Sep 2007)

In the end I got Greenwood and yup lots o' IMP guys around.


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## pteosborne (4 Oct 2007)

I was looking forward to it. Its my favorite joke now that I joined to see the world and I got Greenwood instead.   ;D
But im not bashing, love it here and wouldnt wanna be anywhere else right now.


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## aesop081 (4 Oct 2007)

pteosborne said:
			
		

> But im not bashing, love it here and wouldnt wanna be anywhere else right now.



Wait til you go somehwere else...anywhere else.....

God i hate the ditch


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## cp140tech (4 Oct 2007)

Greenwood isn't so bad, it could be much worse.


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## Sparkplugs (19 Dec 2007)

Well, just got my posting message today, and to no one's surprise, it's 1AMS in Cold Lake.  Same place as 9 of my classmates, and 10 people from the graduating class two weeks before ours.  

Only 4 people didn't get Cold Lake, and they had special circumstances, such as service spouses who can't get posted elsewhere, etc.  Even the people who knocked up their wives on course who are due around grad time got no sympathy.  The Warrant told us that as of now, everyone who gets Cold Lake starts at 1AMS, rotates around there, and then gets posted to a unit.

So I guess this is just to provide current trending info.  Oh, and just for reference, the Top Student put Bagotville as his choice, and he speaks french, and he still got Cold Lake.  The last 7 top students have not gotten their choices.  

I'm not sad about it.  I'm young, single, and female, so Cold Lake might be a bit of fun.  Plus, I get to see more of the country on my drive out there than I ever have before, hehe.

Has anyone ever been posted there?  How did you like it?  Can I harass you for information?   ;D


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## PMedMoe (19 Dec 2007)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> special circumstances, such as service spouses who can't get posted elsewhere



Usually, this is not considered "special" circumstances.  They should consider themselves lucky as it doesn't always work out that way.  The CF attempts to post service spouses together but it is not always possible.

That being said, good on you for having a great attitude about your first posting.  I know nothing of Cold Lake so I can't give you any advice, however, you're sure to learn lots!  Good luck and congrats on your grad!


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## aesop081 (19 Dec 2007)

Never been posted there but i have flown out of there for MAPLE FLAG, WOLF SAFARI and MAPLE GUARDIAN.

Its your typical small town. Very isolated. Theres a very good staekhouse there ( Outrider steakhouse IIRC) and the pub at the Canex isnt bad at all. Not much up there in the way of entertainment. Most of the pubs there stink of cigarettes so as a non-smoker it realy sucked. Theres the usual places to shop. Buy a truck, the streets look like they were bombed with anti-runway munitions. Stay at the best western if going to a hotel....all the others arent fit for human habitation. The area looks good for outdoor activities.

And the "camel's toe" bar is no longer called that  :'(


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## cp140tech (19 Dec 2007)

You've got the right attitude in any event.  I've only spent a few weeks there on TD; lots to do if you're into the outdoors, and lots of friendly people. 
I've worked with a number of techs in Greenwood and here in Comox who left Cold Lake kicking, screaming, and dying to go back.  With your positive outlook and enthusiasm I'm sure you'll have a great time up there.  Congratulations on nearing the end of your course and good luck in the cool pool.


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## Sparkplugs (19 Dec 2007)

Well, I grew up in a very small town in a very isolated part of Northern Ontario, so I've seen my share of hunting, fishing, and -50, hehe.  I'm definitely an outdoors kind of girl.  Only thing I'm disappointed with is that the closest skydiving center is south of Edmonton, hehe.  

I don't see the point in whining about a posting.  The way I figure it, even if it does suck, at least I'm getting it over with now, it's not like I have to retire there...  Plus, the only people I've really ever heard complain about Cold Lake are ones who've never been there.  Everyone I talk to who has been posted there has loved it.  

Eventually I'm hoping to end up working on the SAR Griffons there, but I won't cry if I stay on the 18's. 

Thanks guys...  I'm really looking forward to going!  After 16 months in Borden, I'm ready to get off this base, hehe.  I plan on leaving here the day after grad... Everything I own fits in the back of my 4x4, which I'm sure will come in handy out there too.   ;D


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## belka (20 Dec 2007)

This is the current situation in Cold Lake.

When you first get here you will go to 10FTTS, the training school. You will do your 3-4 week(not sure on the exact timeline) course outlining the basics of the CF-18, general info, servicing, fueling, starting, parking, etc. You will come out of the school qualified to do basic servicing and go to your unit, most likely either 409 or 410, not many go to 1AMS directly as they don't take new AVN's out of borden anymore. You will wait and work in the sqn until you are loaded on your on-stream course, being either A type - Engines, fuel and ECS, B-Type - flight controls, landing gear, airframe. C - Type - Aircraft life support equipment. After this 3-5 month course, you will be fully POM. This method turns out techs extremely fast, which is what we need at the squadrons right now, we are so short of personel it's not even funny. Until all the 100+ positions are filled in this squadron alone, you will be very busy.

As far as Cold Lake itself goes, it gets pretty boring, especially in the winter when there is not much really to do. Summer is better, but it doesn't last long enough.


----------



## Sparkplugs (24 Dec 2007)

NINJA said:
			
		

> This is the current situation in Cold Lake.
> 
> When you first get here you will go to 10FTTS, the training school. You will do your 3-4 week(not sure on the exact timeline) course outlining the basics of the CF-18, general info, servicing, fueling, starting, parking, etc. You will come out of the school qualified to do basic servicing and go to your unit, most likely either 409 or 410, not many go to 1AMS directly as they don't take new AVN's out of borden anymore. You will wait and work in the sqn until you are loaded on your on-stream course, being either A type - Engines, fuel and ECS, B-Type - flight controls, landing gear, airframe. C - Type - Aircraft life support equipment. After this 3-5 month course, you will be fully POM. This method turns out techs extremely fast, which is what we need at the squadrons right now, we are so short of personel it's not even funny. Until all the 100+ positions are filled in this squadron alone, you will be very busy.
> 
> As far as Cold Lake itself goes, it gets pretty boring, especially in the winter when there is not much really to do. Summer is better, but it doesn't last long enough.



The group before us had 410 and 409 as their posting messages, but we've been told that from our group forward, we all start at 1ams...  That's what my posting message says as well.  No idea what's happening with that, but that's what's coming down from the higher-ups.  

Which sqn are you with?  Do you like it there?  How long have you been out of Borden?


----------



## belka (25 Dec 2007)

I'm with 409 and lets just say that I wouldn't waist my time there if I didn't like my job. I finished my 3's in borden in June of 06.

I doubt that you'll end-up at 1ams, you'll start at the school and once you finish all your basic courses, you'll end up at a squadron. Unless that has changed in the last week, which I doubt since both sqn's are hurting for people, moreso 409.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (25 Dec 2007)

NINJA said:
			
		

> I'm with 409 and lets just say that I wouldn't waist my time there if I didn't like my job. I finished my 3's in borden in June of 06.
> 
> I doubt that you'll end-up at 1ams, you'll start at the school and once you finish all your basic courses, you'll end up at a squadron. Unless that has changed in the last week, which I doubt since both sqn's are hurting for people, moreso 409.



Ptes get to choose where they waste their time now? Interesting.
I think any posting is as boring as you want to make it. We spent 3 years in Goose Bay and had a ball. We got ourselves a skidoo and got into the local scene of outdoors activities and entertaining in each others homes. We just got back from Christmas dinner with friends we made there who are close and steadfast friends for life.....It isn't the base that makes things worthwhile or "boring" it's what you make of your time there.


----------



## Sparkplugs (26 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Ptes get to choose where they waste their time now? Interesting.
> I think any posting is as boring as you want to make it. We spent 3 years in Goose Bay and had a ball. We got ourselves a skidoo and got into the local scene of outdoors activities and entertaining in each others homes. We just got back from Christmas dinner with friends we made there who are close and steadfast friends for life.....It isn't the base that makes things worthwhile or "boring" it's what you make of your time there.



Hey, I didn't get to choose.  I put in my 3 choices, and they send me to the opposite end of the country.  No big deal, if it's that bad, at least I'm getting it over with as my first posting.  Besides, I'm pretty decent at making the best of wherever I am.  I grew up in a town of 1000, way up in the middle of nowhere, I think I can handle Cold Lake.  I'm just happy to be getting out of Borden and to an actual unit!


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## belka (27 Dec 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Ptes get to choose where they waste their time now? Interesting.



I was refering to the job. If I didn't like where I worked I would've VR'd along time ago, I'm not about to waist my time at a job that I hate.

A far as cold lake goes, it does get boring after a while, there is no denying that. You can only do so much in an area with so little.


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## Rusty_Poth (4 Jan 2008)

I was posted there for over 17 years, and we loved it, it was a good place to bring the kids up, so for us it was good.

Keep you head up, as othes have said you are starting off with a good atittude, lets see if you keep that up beat atittude after 8 years.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (4 Jan 2008)

NINJA said:
			
		

> I was refering to the job. If I didn't like where I worked I would've VR'd along time ago, I'm not about to waist my time at a job that I hate.
> 
> A far as cold lake goes, it does get boring after a while, there is no denying that. You can only do so much in an area with so little.



*waist *      /weɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[weyst] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation 
–noun 1. the part of the body in humans between the ribs and the hips, usually the narrowest part of the torso.  
2. the part of a garment covering this part of the body.  
3. blouse (def. 1).  
4. the part of a one-piece garment covering the body from the neck or shoulders more or less to the waistline, esp. this part of a woman's or child's garment.  
5. a child's undergarment to which other articles of apparel may be attached.  
6. the part of an object, esp. a central or middle part, that resembles or is analogous to the human waist: the waist of a violin.  
7. Nautical. the central part of a ship; that part of the deck between the forecastle and the quarterdeck.  
8. the constricted portion of the abdomen of certain insects, as a wasp.  

*waste*      /weɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[weyst] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, wast·ed, wast·ing, noun, adjective 
–verb (used with object) 1. to consume, spend, or employ uselessly or without adequate return; use to no avail or profit; squander: to waste money; to waste words.  
2. to fail or neglect to use: to waste an opportunity.  
3. to destroy or consume gradually; wear away: The waves waste the rock of the shore.  
4. to wear down or reduce in bodily substance, health, or strength; emaciate; enfeeble: to be wasted by disease or hunger.  
5. to destroy, devastate, or ruin: a country wasted by a long and futile war.  
6. Slang. to kill or murder.  
–verb (used without object) 7. to be consumed, spent, or employed uselessly or without giving full value or being fully utilized or appreciated.  
8. to become gradually consumed, used up, or worn away: A candle wastes in burning.  
9. to become physically worn; lose flesh or strength; become emaciated or enfeebled.  
10. to diminish gradually; dwindle, as wealth, power, etc.: The might of England is wasting.  
11. to pass gradually, as time.


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## belka (7 Jan 2008)

Orly.


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## MedCorps (7 Jan 2008)

Educate me... 

You made mention of the "on-stream" course, A,B, or C type.  Then you are fully POM.  

Do AVN's get only one stream before QL5 or can they qualify in multiple streams?  

Cheers, 

MC


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## belka (8 Jan 2008)

They get only one stream. I know of a few senior Mcpl's that have been around for awhile that have quals in every stream, everything from Engines to Avionics and Weapons. I'm sure you can put in a request to get transfered to another stream, but I haven't seen anyone done it yet. Also, they are giving Armourers their own trade again so C stream has one less subsection. Most, of not all, new techs will get A or B stream since that is where all the bodies are needed.


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## mover1 (8 Jan 2008)

Cold Lake BORING in the winter?

Since when. 
Skiing, Quadding, Snowmobiling. Going to Edmonton, going on a road trip to go skiing in the Rockies. Intersection Sports and the best TDs in the winter to Florida, New Orleans, Texas..... its what you make of it. 

Besides if your a single woman you get the pick of the litter. Just make sure to do a background check on who you are dating.


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## SteveC (11 Jan 2008)

Are AVN/AVS Tech as hard to get into as people say they are?

Are the majority of these two trades posting to Cold Lake?


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## cp140tech (12 Jan 2008)

Do you mean basic aptitude requirements or space availability?  

Both trades need people.

The majority of the two trades are not in Cold Lake, but it seems that many of the new bodies are being posted up that way.  Cold Lake always seems to need people.


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## SteveC (12 Jan 2008)

When I say hard to get into, I mean in terms of competitivness.

Just curious because I where the Air Force uniform now, put in a purple trade.  To be honest I wear the air uniform but been with the Army for 8 years.

I heard AVN/AVS was hurting for bodies.  And the trades sounds like a good go.  Im just trying to learn as much as I can about it.  Any links/info anyone has aside from the recruiting site, I'd greatly appreciate


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## cp140tech (14 Jan 2008)

Hey there, sorry for the slow reply, I'm in NS on a course right now.

I can't provide hard numbers with regards to competitiveness and number of slots, but AVS/AVN both need people.  We've got a lot of new people coming through now, but we'll be losing a ton of people in the next 5 to 10 years the way things are going.

You'd be hard pressed to find a better resource for information than this website, if there are any specific questions you'd like to ask feel free to PM me and I'll get you an answer if I can.  Otherwise, just dig around on here, you'll get a good picture of what the trades are like.


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## Northernguardian (14 Jan 2008)

There are two recruiting streams for AVS right now. One generates a full blown avionics specialist (like we always did until relatively recently) that has in depth knowledge of electronics, and can interpret schematics, circuits, etc. 

The other stream produces inferior techs who are trained for the "first-to-third line" maintenance concept. They receive a lot less training in theory. We old guys refer to these techs as "box changers." They are lost when it comes to the deeper theory traditionally associated with AVS, like circuit analysis. They can't be loaded on 2nd line courses as they lack the knowledge for them. I have heard that some of these techs felt cheated when they realized they were not the same standard as other AVS techs. No surprise there.

 I believe the CF is making a huge mistake doing this sort of thing, as these folks cannot be employed in labs, and have difficulty understanding theory on some first line courses. Their limited understanding of avionics theory jeopardizes their ability to troubleshoot aircraft. That we have a two-tier structure within a military occupation should raise concerns, as every trade should have a common standard.  

If you want to go AVS, make sure you know what stream you are getting into.


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## Sparkplugs (15 Jan 2008)

AVN's are also hurting for people, but be prepared for some major crowding in Borden for your training.  There are more than 270 AVN techs training in Borden right now...  That's not counting all the AVS, either.  It's nuts.  Hurry up and wait is the name of the game here.  Of the last 3 classes to get their postings, 32 people are going to Cold Lake, it's an average of 10 people per class.  If it's a french class, it's been 10 people per class in Bagotville.  Those places are supremely short right now.  As far as AVN goes, you still have to meet a fairly high standard on the CFAT test, and the course, while not extremely hard, is challenging enough that we have lost 4 people to failures.  You'll have to be prepared to study in crappy conditions.  There's not a lot of room here, so it's only if you're very lucky that you'll be living in a mod.  Most living quarters here are 4 per room for the guys, 2 per room for the girls.  PMQ's, you can only get if you are married or already commonlaw, and there aren't many of them.  We had plenty of people turned down just because there weren't enough Q's for students.

If you need to know anything about AVN stuff currently going on in Borden, let me know, I'll do my best to help you out.  I'm here until March, anyway.


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## Sparkplugs (15 Jan 2008)

Winter I'll be fine, hehe.  I grew up on a skidoo in Northern Ontario, so no problems there.

I'll let you know what goes on with the streaming and the 1AMS thing that we've all been told about here, but since we're the first ones with these new posting messages, we don't know how it'll turn out when we get to Alberta.

COS is March 24th, but since I graduate in Feb, I'm going to ask to be out there a little sooner than that!

I've always had a good attitude about where I go... Honestly?  I've done a lot worse jobs for a lot less money, this is no different.  

Just did my second last exam today, now only 1 left!!


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## smale436 (15 Jan 2008)

Northern Guardian, being that I am currently undergoing QL3 AVS training (not in Borden) I am curious about these two "recruiting streams" you speak of. Can you elaborate what they are? When I joined the CF two years ago yesterday, plus listening to co-workers recruiting stories, we were told we were joining as an AVS tech and that was that. We knew we would not be working in specific streams the way the old trade was broken down. (IS, IE, Radar, etc) Are you referring perhaps to the two different types of AVS courses currently running? (The 10 month pilot in Borden and the 5 month Legacy course run at NSCC's Aviation Institute in Shearwater which is the English version of the current French AVS QL3 being run in Borden)

            Thanks for piquing my curiosity!


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## Pistos (15 Jan 2008)

This seems like a good place to sneak in a couple of trade questions, since Sparkplug either doesn't check her email or, more likely, is ignoring me 

I'm planning on joining your club as soon as my affairs are in order. On January 7th I completed the CFAT and chatted with a recruiting officer.  I've been given an unofficial "You're what we want" from the Halifax CFRC, but since I can't be available until September my file will be closed until August when I finish the process with the interview and medical.  Apparently I scored well and qualified for any NCM trade; of the ones currently in demand AVN Tech appeals to me the most.  

Now, at age 35 I've been out of school for a couple of years - are there any areas that I should brush up on?  In particular, what level of math will I be expected to know?  I spent a week or two relearning it up to about a grade 6 level for the CFAT and that worked out perfectly but I fear this will be grossly inadequate at Borden. I do, however, have several months in which to get my mind into shape (even as I struggle to do the same with the body).  Direct me.


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## smale436 (15 Jan 2008)

Are you joining as an AVN or AVS tech? The amount of math is similar but probably slightly more demanding for AVS (my trade) When I was in high school and had no idea what to do with my life I took math courses that would lead into first year calculus, a course which I did not last very long in.  ;D Five years later I was beginning my POET training and had forgotten virtually EVERYTHING. I could not even help my brother who was taking the same stuff in school. To make a story short, any math you needed to know the instructors will teach you or briefly review on if it is basic. In POET they gave us a review on how to add and subtract. The reason they get into the factoring of algebraic equations is so you learn to manipulate formulas rather than trying to memorizing three different variants of 15 formulas. AVS you need to know the basics of trigonometry as well for when you get into vectors and sine waves in POET. Not too sure about the AVN side, but I am sure the math required in that trade is about the same. 
         That said, any extra knowledge is usually a good thing. There are several books at Chapters or even your library that can touch on many topics covered in general high school math.


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## cp140tech (16 Jan 2008)

Pistos,

It looks like you're going AVN from your post; if that's the case, don't sweat the math.  The only math we use is simple stuff, you'll do a bit of formula manipulation for your electrical training... but it's very basic.  The instructors generally move at a slow pace, especially during your early training, they are there to help you.  

I've been out of Borden far too long to speak for current conditions there, but feel free to PM me for any questions about the trade you may have and I'll pass along whatever I can.  I'm in Greenwood on course right now, so it will likely be a day or so before I get back to you.


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## belka (16 Jan 2008)

The only thing you have to worry about during your time in Borden for AVN training is learning to memorize lines of text. More often then not, tests required you to give answers that were word-for-word out of the book. I was very disappointed that the tests didn't ask more questions about how the system works or how components work with each other. As stated, Borden is a zoo right now and the sooner you realize that it's just a game, the quicker your time will pass. Test scores don't matter, everyone is treated the same when they get to the sqn, whether you scored a 98% on the course or a 71%.

Good luck!


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## Pistos (16 Jan 2008)

Thanks all for the responses!  cp140tech, I'm sure there'll be a few PM's incoming as questions come up - thank you for the offer.

I'll keep picking away on math.com (tremendous site!) and playing Brain Age but I won't bother with the calculus tutor   

Between selling / dissolving my business, trying to bring our house up to a salable condition, and working this 'office chair physique' into something more suitable for my new environment, I'm somewhat relieved to know that I needn't attend night classes in my _spare time_.

As a side note, for Christmas my wife gave me a Nintendo DS - wonderful little toy.  With it I received a vision trainer and no less than 4 Brain Age type programs.  I'm know I'm getting up there in years but I didn't think she had cause just yet to worry about me going blind and senile  ;D

Cheers


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## majingrim (4 Feb 2008)

Hope this isn't a re post, I've just started looking around the site and haven't seen anything, but I'm thinking about applying for AVN tech. I'm not currently in the military or anything, but my brother and some extended family is and it sounds like the place i want to be. Just wondering about how long i can expect to wait to be employed from the time i go apply, if i get accepted and all that. I have my high school, and 1 year of university, plus I'm bilingual.. don't know if these things will help me get in sooner or not, but I'd like to get in as soon as possible. Any info on what i can expect as far as procedure from the time i apply would be appreciated too. Thanks


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## Roy Harding (4 Feb 2008)

majingrim said:
			
		

> Hope this isn't a re post, I've just started looking around the site and haven't seen anything, but I'm thinking about applying for AVN tech. I'm not currently in the military or anything, but my brother and some extended family is and it sounds like the place i want to be. Just wondering about how long i can expect to wait to be employed from the time i go apply, if i get accepted and all that. I have my high school, and 1 year of university, plus I'm bilingual.. don't know if these things will help me get in sooner or not, but I'd like to get in as soon as possible. Any info on what i can expect as far as procedure from the time i apply would be appreciated too. Thanks



I can see that you've "just started looking around" - I suggest you do a bit more "looking around", especially on the Recruiting threads.

In the meantime:

Welcome to Army.ca. Here are some reading references that are core to how Army.ca operates. I strongly recommend you take a moment to read through these to give you a better sense for the environment here. It will help you avoid the common pitfalls which can result in miscommunication and confusion. For those that choose not to read, their actions often lead to warnings being issued or even permanent bans.

*Army.ca Conduct Guidelines*: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Tone and Content on Army.ca: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

*Frequently Asked Questions - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41136.0.html*

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html
Army.ca Wiki Recruiting FAQ - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977
Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf


Infantry Specific FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Google search of Army.ca - http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=+site%3Aarmy.ca+%22search+term%22&btnG=Search&meta= (follow the link then replace "search term" with what you are looking for)

Army.ca wiki pages  - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff


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## lateralus (19 Feb 2008)

Is there anyone here that is currently on the AVN tech course in borden or has just finished it?  I've heard how that course has been revamped so many times and how many are questioning how well this course has been taught/presented. I understand that it's just over a year now as opposed to the 18 months it used to be.  Also, it seems like most people are heading to cold lake or bagotville after the course. The thought of going there is somewhat of a turn off just from the posts i've read. I feel a little indifferent now about this trade now that i've done some reading in this forum. Seems like many folks aren't very satisfied with this course or trade. Can anyone offer some opinions, advice, or info?


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## belka (19 Feb 2008)

lateralus said:
			
		

> Is there anyone here that is currently on the AVN tech course in borden or has just finished it?  I've heard how that course has been revamped so many times and how many are questioning how well this course has been taught/presented. I understand that it's just over a year now as opposed to the 18 months it used to be.  Also, it seems like most people are heading to cold lake or bagotville after the course. The thought of going there is somewhat of a turn off just from the posts i've read. I feel a little indifferent now about this trade now that i've done some reading in this forum. Seems like many folks aren't very satisfied with this course or trade. Can anyone offer some opinions, advice, or info?



The course, IMO is too long. It should be no more than 6 months consisting of common core, and the aircraft basics (engines, electronics, flight controls, etc). Why does a student who is getting posted to a trash hauler wing need to learn about ejection seats for 4 weeks is beyond me. I learned more on my QL5's, which was less than 3 months,  then I did spending 18 months in Borden. I wasn't satisfied with the course in Borden, if I would've done it all over again, I would have gone to a civy college and enrolled after. The trade itself and working in a Squadron, is alot more satisfying, anyone can tell you that.


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## lateralus (19 Feb 2008)

thanks ninja...good to know. I guess it's just having to put up with that year in borden.  You in cold lake?


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## belka (20 Feb 2008)

Unfortunately.


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## lateralus (20 Feb 2008)

You in cold lake ninja? If so, how is it?


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## pteosborne (20 Feb 2008)

lateralus, I finished the course 6 months ago now. But I didnt find my Borden experience too bad and now that I look back it was a pretty good time.
In my limited time in Greenwood I love the trade and have no regrets about going AVN. Everybody complains about there job but in the big picture this is a pretty sweet gig.


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## lateralus (20 Feb 2008)

Thanks for your insight PteOsborne.


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## pteosborne (24 Feb 2008)

No problem man, anytime.


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## Sparkplugs (25 Feb 2008)

And it just goes to show you... to expect the unexpected in the military!

To be posted to Cold Lake, I had to do this semi-isolated posting screening.  It involves a social worker and a medical officer okay-ing you to go to a posting which is more 'isolated' than others in terms of health care, etc, and is expensive to live in.  Anyway, I'm currently seeing a specialist in Barrie (nothing too serious, just annoying), and the MO (medical officer) here refused to sign off my file as being good to go.  This resulted in some admin issues, and as of right now, I'm stuck in Borden for at least 4 or 5 months.  They canned Cold Lake completely... saying that 3 hours is too far for me to drive everytime I need to see a doctor.  So the latest I've heard is that I'll be here as staff for a number of months...  Working on some of the runup Tutors we have here, and doing some office work with the AVN course directors.  After that, the latest word is that Trenton is likely, just in case I still need to see my doctor, he'll be just up the road.  I'm okay with all of this, mostly because I got to move into staff quarters, and de-link from the rations!!!  That was the best part there... Now there's an extra $420 in my bank account every month, hehe.

So the moral of the story is... Until the day you leave, expect the unexpected!  And try your hardest to NOT let doctors put you on a TCAT if you have an issue that you are not even on restrictions for!  I tried to fight it, but the chain of command said enough was enough, suck it up and enjoy your time in Borden, haha.  

Just thought I'd update with what's going on.


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## Sparkplugs (9 Mar 2008)

Okay!  So here's the latest.

After being told to settle down in Borden for the next few months, I moved into staff quarters, (no inspections, yay!) and settled into working at 17 Hangar AMF.  As soon as I got settled into my new routine, BOOM, posting message!  So I'm off to CFB Trenton in 2 weeks.  I'll be starting in the engine snags sections, which makes me very happy.  So I'm packing up everything again, and getting ready to go!  I'm looking forward to the Hercs very much... And at least this way I'll be closer to skydiving in Gananoque!

I'll still keep posting here if anything changes, but as for now, Trenton it is!


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## kwright15 (18 Mar 2008)

I am currently looking for the same info if anyone and advise that would be great.


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## smale436 (18 Mar 2008)

I spent two years posted to CFSATE where you will be doing your AVN training, although most of my training was done while attached posted elsewhere. Likely the most important factor will be if and when there will be any PMQ's available. When I left Borden in September last year, they were almost completely full to my knowledge. I am not sure if you can apply for them prior, but you will likely end up reporting to CFSATE on whatever date you are supposed to be there and taking a room in the shacks initially. If you have your status sorted out prior you will receive free R and Q plus separation expense. Then you will have an opportunity to apply for the PMQ and inquire about getting your family and effects brought up. Some people I was on course had to wait a few weeks to a month from the time they filled out the application until they moved in. You end up on the PAT platoon for some time while awaiting course or get loaded onto a course right away which is what usually happens for people who OT from a previous trade. (I am assuming this is your situation as you state you have recruit school bypass)
       If you are going to be at your present location for a while before reporting to Borden, I would recommend looking into whether you can apply for one before you arrive there in case there is a waiting list. The people I know who are living in them seemed to find the process fairly straightforward for the most part. Have fun at CFSATE!


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## kwright15 (18 Mar 2008)

Is there any chance of getting posted in Trenton?


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## aesop081 (18 Mar 2008)

kwright15 said:
			
		

> Is there any chance of getting posted in Trenton?



Just as good a chance as going to Cold lake, Greenwood, Shearwater, Comox, Bagottville, Winnipeg..........


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## smale436 (18 Mar 2008)

In a word, yes. Just like there is a chance of going to Comox, Cold Lake, Shearwater, Moose Jaw, Winnipeg. See where I am going with this? And from my experience nine times out of ten people from Ontario (especially Toronto) will put Trenton as a first preference. Bottom line, you go where the CF requires you to go at that particular moment. As a courtesy, they ASK you your preferences, but there is no guarantee you will go there. And don't let the whole story about the person with top marks always getting first pick. I know people on courses where the top student did not get any of their three preferences. It is always good to research with your spouse the places that they have a possibility of getting posted to. I am amazed at how many people join up and it is not until after starting their courses that they discover the "existence" of places such as Cold Lake.


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## exgunnertdo (19 Mar 2008)

We lived in PMQs in Borden until last June, and they were far from full.  About 1/3 to 1/2 were empty, based on the unshovelled driveways, and emergency lights that were hanging in the front windows.  A friend was told that they had no more two-bedrooms, only three BRs, and all she was entitled to was a 2, so she was out of luck.  I personally could see about 7 empty 3 BRs from my kitchen window.

If you're a married/CL person, you should be able to get a 3 BR.  My friend was single, hence only entitled to a 2.

But yeah, the PAT situation is a tough slog.  From what I heard,  most of the married folks managed to eventually get their families to Borden if they wanted.  Seemed like every second person I met in the Qs was the spouse of a student at CFSATE!


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## pteosborne (19 Mar 2008)

I took me 2 months to get my Q when I arrived in Borden Jan '06 and I heard thats pretty standard if not better than to get all the paperwork sorted out.


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## wilsonland (2 Apr 2008)

I am currently in Borden on my QL3 course for AVN as a no hook private, and graduate mid June. I am being posted to CFB Moose Jaw, 431Sqd. I'm curious to know what it's like starting out at the sqd, just coming out of QL3's (like work environment)...Also, curious to know what the life in Moose Jaw is like (what's there to do), never been there before, but have heard good things so far, and what are the single quarters like?


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## Zoomie (5 Apr 2008)

Moose Jaw living is what you make out of it.  The town itself is a good size - with Regina under an hour away to the East.

When I was there, they were allowing NCMs to stay in the NFTC shacks - I heard that this has stopped.  If that is the case, there are no SQs.  The PMQ patch has been decimated, but there are still some nice row houses that you can get into - I would consider calling CFHA sooner than later.


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## SupersonicMax (5 Apr 2008)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Moose Jaw living is what you make out of it.  The town itself is a good size - with Regina under an hour away to the East.
> 
> When I was there, they were allowing NCMs to stay in the NFTC shacks - I heard that this has stopped.  If that is the case, there are no SQs.  The PMQ patch has been decimated, but there are still some nice row houses that you can get into - I would consider calling CFHA sooner than later.



There are still plenty of Qs available to live in!

Max


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## wilsonland (5 Apr 2008)

So there is no single quarters? I wasn't look'n to get a Q! I wanted to remain in sq's for atleast a year to build up some cash an buy a house.


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## SupersonicMax (5 Apr 2008)

wilsonland said:
			
		

> So there is no single quarters? I wasn't look'n to get a Q! I wanted to remain in sq's for atleast a year to build up some cash an buy a house.



I know a few NCMs that are in the *Shacks* here but they are TD or Attached Posted.  It doesn't cost anything to give it a try.

Max


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## Zoomie (5 Apr 2008)

When in doubt - go the website.


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## belka (11 Apr 2008)

Had a buddy who got posted there after his 5's. Says he loves it there, housing is cheap, etc.


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## SupersonicMax (14 Apr 2008)

NINJA said:
			
		

> Had a buddy who got posted there after his 5's. Says he loves it there, *housing is cheap*, etc.



Not so much anymore if you want to buy.

Max


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## pfl (27 Jun 2008)

Ok so I will be signing up for the air force by January in the hopes of becoming an AVN-Tech. I've been looking up as much info as possible as far as what to expect. I am excited and anxious to get under-way, however I have some questions regarding family life. I'm aware that I will be away from my wife and young son for 3 months while undergoing basic training, but when that is over, do I report to CFB Borden right away for job training? Will me wife and son be able to join me in Borden? Is military housing hard to obtain? Is it garbage? After the 54 week course is over, how much should I expect to be away from the family? Any help is greatly appreciated


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## observor 69 (27 Jun 2008)

http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/index.php/board,16


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## pfl (28 Jun 2008)

Ok so i've read up on most of the posts in the link u provided, ty very much, however there are still some questions that I have unanswered. Usually how long after basic training would i go off to CFB Borden? During the 54 week period that Im attending will my wife and son be able to join me? I thought that would be the case but I saw one post that eluded to the contrary....... Any help would be immensely appreciated


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## mudman (28 Jun 2008)

once you are done Basic and you head up to Borden you will be able to bring you family with you. It is hard to say the availability of the PMQ's in Borden things are always changing . After you are done in Borden and get posted to a Sqn it is hard to say how much you will deploy some places are busier then others.


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## pfl (29 Jun 2008)

Hey cool thanks alot. One more thing though people...I'm not sure if I will continue with a military career after my 3 years are up (it all depends on how military life affects my family) so I'm kind of curious, are companies generally happy to hire former military AVN-Tech's? Will I need any other training or classes to get my skills up to par? Does a military education give you a CAMA licence or whatever the Canadian board thing is called lol


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## pteosborne (6 Jul 2008)

When i joined the AVN VIE(variable inital engagement) was a 5 year contract. FYI


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## pfl (8 Jul 2008)

Ouch. Heres hoping thats not the case lol
Im heading down to the local recruitment center later this week so I'll be sure to ask about that.


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## Sparkplugs (20 Jul 2008)

The VIE is still 5 years for an AVN tech.

And now that the course in Borden has been shortened, (as of March 2008) it is no longer counted as a college course by Transport Canada, so when you leave the CF, you'd have to take a civilian AME college course again anyways, and the shortest of those is 2 years.  If you're just doing the CF thing to get the school paid for, skip it, you'll eventually have to pay it anyway.  If you honestly want to make a go as a CF technician, then I wish you all the luck in the world.  

You get a couple of travel days to get to CFB Borden after BMQ.  Some of the guys I was there with got pmq's right away, but one guy was on the waiting list for 6 months.  You'll have to start off in the shacks though, until  you get your pmq, so your family will have to stay home, for which you'll get free rations and quarters, and separation pay.  If you do move them down anyway, you'll be paying for their accomodations, as well as your own.  It can be frustrating, but you will get a pmq eventually.

When you leave the CF, your military tech quals count for only experience.  And some employers have issues with the way we do our work...  nothing wrong with the work, but they think we're too specialized.  A civvie tech, on a small-ish aircraft, will learn everything.  We still have engine techs who know nothing about the airframe, and vice versa.

I'm not trying to scare you off of the trade, but it's a huge commitment, 5 years at the least, and if you're just using it to jump off a civvie career, it won't do you much good.  After your 12-14 month course in Borden, you'll get posted to a unit, and then you'll do an apprenticeship, and then you'll have to do a type course on your aircraft, which could be anywhere from 2 months, to 8-10 months (the rumoured time frame for the new J-model Herc course in the US)...   So it's a big life, as well as time committment.


----------



## pfl (22 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> And now that the course in Borden has been shortened, (as of March 2008) it is no longer counted as a college course by Transport Canada, so when you leave the CF, you'd have to take a civilian AME college course again anyways, and the shortest of those is 2 years.  If you're just doing the CF thing to get the school paid for, skip it, you'll eventually have to pay it anyway.



Can anybody else confirm this for me? Not scaring me off at all but its kind of a bummer if thats the case. I'm looking at going at it for 10 years, getting a nice pension, and then a sweet civvie job lol, is this likely? And thank you for all the info so far


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 Jul 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Can anybody else confirm this for me? Not scaring me off at all but its kind of a bummer if thats the case. I'm looking at going at it for 10 years, getting a nice pension, and then a sweet civvie job lol, is this likely? And thank you for all the info so far



You will NOT get a pension for 10 years of service.  25 years is the minimum for pension under the current TOS.  Personally, I have an issue with people who join to CF for it to serve them, vice for them to serve Canada so I encourage you to tell the recruiter "this is all about me".  Make sure it is a Combat Arms officer who has done tours of FRY, Afghanistan and hasn't been home much with his/her family.

Don't dislike me for being honest.  I don't have much respect for people who use the CF, as I have dedicated my life to it and all that its about, just like my father did for 28 years.


----------



## Sparkplugs (22 Jul 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Can anybody else confirm this for me? Not scaring me off at all but its kind of a bummer if thats the case. I'm looking at going at it for 10 years, getting a nice pension, and then a sweet civvie job lol, is this likely? And thank you for all the info so far



Call Transport Canada and ask if the CFSATE AVN course counts anymore.  I was on the second last course that counted as a college equivalent.


----------



## pfl (23 Jul 2008)

Sparkplugs, thank you for all your help so far, you're great.

Eye in the sky, get a life. Im a married man, with a young family, you cannot question any of my motives for joining up. I love Canada as much as anybody else, and even if I didnt, Im a dedicated guy. if I give my all, and uphold my end of the bargain, pay respect to those who came before me, well, what more could you want? I'm as willing to throw myself on a grenade as anybody on these boards. Can you tell me how it would be that I put money into a retirement fund every month, week ,whatever. I leave the CF and I dont get any payout? Hmmm, seeing as I have a few years experience in the mtg field, dealing as a financial advisor, please inform me. Ty


----------



## kincanucks (23 Jul 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Sparkplugs, thank you for all your help so far, you're great.
> 
> Eye in the sky, get a life. Im a married man, with a young family, you cannot question any of my motives for joining up. I love Canada as much as anybody else, and even if I didnt, Im a dedicated guy. if I give my all, and uphold my end of the bargain, pay respect to those who came before me, well, what more could you want? I'm as willing to throw myself on a grenade as anybody on these boards. Can you tell me how it would be that I put money into a retirement fund every month, week ,whatever. I leave the CF and I dont get any payout? Hmmm, seeing as I have a few years experience in the mtg field, dealing as a financial advisor, please inform me. Ty



Perhaps if you did some research on the CF Pension Plan you would understand your entitlements.  And he didn't say you wouldn't get any payout just that you shouldn't expect a pension.


HH and DA


----------



## observor 69 (23 Jul 2008)

By payout, at the end of ten years service, you mean return of contributions ?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Jul 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Eye in the sky, get a life.



I said what I think, my opinion, and thats that.  I never pass my opinion off as anything other than my opinion.  

I am off to go try to get a life now.   :-*


----------



## Eye In The Sky (23 Jul 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> I love Canada as much as anybody else, and even if I didnt, Im a dedicated guy. if I give my all, and uphold my end of the bargain, pay respect to those who came before me, well, what more could you want? I'm as willing to throw myself on a grenade as anybody on these boards. Can you tell me how it would be that I put money into a retirement fund every month, week ,whatever. I leave the CF and I dont get any payout? Hmmm, seeing as I have a few years experience in the mtg field, dealing as a financial advisor, please inform me. Ty



I never questioned how much you love Canada/living in Canada.  Serving Canada is different IMHO.  What do you know about that?  

As stated, you said the word pension.  I merely said you wouldn't get a pension.  That, after 10 years service is a *fact*.  Full stop.  With your few years mtg experience, I will assume I don't have to find the applicable sources to confirm this, you should do fine on your own.


----------



## pfl (23 Jul 2008)

Ah what do you want lol I dont lay down for much. Somebody with manners already informed me as to what actually happens in that scenario


----------



## chinook003 (28 Jul 2008)

Please remember that the military is not in the business of training people for civilian careers. Their sole goal is to get you ready for the job that they want you to do and nothing else. If you want a civilian qualification you can take courses and study on your own time while in the service to prepare youeself for a civilian career.


----------



## pfl (29 Jul 2008)

I've come to accept that, and it has not really changed my opinion of the CF. Im as excited as ever to get in, and as I recently made the drive from Montreal to Toronto, stopping by in Trenton has made me more determined than ever to try and get posted there (Cold Lake will do also lol). Basically I just want in. I know the CF has courses to help its members ease back into civilian life and when the time comes, 5 or 10 years down the road I will use those. You know, it seems that camo gear is back in fashion on the streets, but I couldnt do it cause I would fell like such a damn poser. Its the true CF uniform for me or nothing.


----------



## cp140tech (29 Jul 2008)

The military has a way of holding on to folks who get in with the intention of doing a few years and jumping back into civvie life. 

In any event, we can certainly use the help.... some of the young folks who get in with the intention of gaining skills and experience are among the most motivated and productive techs that I've worked with.  Listen and learn from the people around you, put in an honest effort and everybody will come out ahead.

Good luck.


----------



## pfl (1 Aug 2008)

Thank you Peabody, thats the type of encouragement that works well lol
Can I just run through the timeline w/ you guys? Once into BMQ its 3 months, then off to Borden for 12 or 15 months, off to a squadron for some more trainng, then off to my first posting, right? When will I do QL5's? At the squadron? After which I would recieve Spec 1 pay? Just asking cause I like to know as much as possible, thanks to anyone who can clarify, I know this isnt the most complicated question....but military timelines from what it seems can be quite the fickle lady lol


----------



## belka (1 Aug 2008)

Here is a rough timeline:

1)Basic training - 11-12 weeks.
2)Pat Platoon in Borden - 0-12months. (depends if you get luck and put on course or not). Personally, I was on PAT for 3 months, others were aslong as a year.
3)AVN course (QL3) - 12-15 months.
4)Posting to Squadron after grad.
5)Now, depending on what aircraft you are posted to, you might get a course right away for your QL5's or you might have to go a few months as an apprentice getting your log book signed off. Either way, you don't get your Spec pay until you are a Cpl and QL5 qualified.

You might get into a situation, like myself and a few other Pte's in the sqn, who hold their QL5's and POM's yet don't recieve spec pay. While there are new remustered cpl's coming in from Borden who do get spec. We are more qualified and trained, yet recieve alot less pay.  :-X


----------



## pfl (1 Aug 2008)

Thanks bro, but whats PAT Platoon? Kind of a holding pen I guess?


----------



## belka (1 Aug 2008)

Personel Awaiting Training. Or the cattle ranch.  ;D


----------



## pfl (1 Aug 2008)

What goes on during PAT? Can I have my wife and kid with me in a PMQ? What are the day to day duties and all that..


----------



## belka (1 Aug 2008)

Usually alot of sitting around and waiting for something to happen. You might get lucky and get sent to another base/unit for OJT for a few months. Yes, you can bring your family.


----------



## George Wallace (1 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> What goes on during PAT? Can I have my wife and kid with me in a PMQ? What are the day to day duties and all that..



If you don't want to use SEARCH; then perhaps you guys ought to take this to PMs as these questions have been covered in many topics already.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (2 Aug 2008)

NINJA said:
			
		

> You might get into a situation, like myself and a few other Pte's in the sqn, who hold their QL5's and POM's yet don't recieve spec pay. While there are new remustered cpl's coming in from Borden who do get spec. We are more qualified and trained, yet recieve alot less pay.  :-X



Only Cpl's receive spec pay...period.  You aren't in the CF long enough to get your Cpls, the CF doesn't see a reason you deserve spec pay.  

These Cpls who are remusters have already been Cpls before...you don't think they should get more pay than you, being they already earned their rank and you didn't?  Shake your head.  They also don't get spec pay until they get their 5s, just like everyone else.


----------



## belka (3 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Only Cpl's receive spec pay...period.  You aren't in the CF long enough to get your Cpls, the CF doesn't see a reason you deserve spec pay.



I'm not saying pte's should recieve spec.



> These Cpls who are remusters have already been Cpls before...you don't think they should get more pay than you, being they already earned their rank and you didn't?  Shake your head.  They also don't get spec pay until they get their 5s, just like everyone else.



I don't see how cpl's who earned their rank and 5's in another, non-spec, trade get their spec as soon as they remuster to AVN or AVS.


----------



## Run away gun (3 Aug 2008)

NINJA said:
			
		

> I don't see how cpl's who earned their rank and 5's in another, non-spec, trade get their spec as soon as they remuster to AVN or AVS.



They don't.


----------



## MamaBear (3 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Don't dislike me for being honest.  I don't have much respect for people who use the CF, as I have dedicated my life to it and all that its about, just like my father did for 28 years.



Thank you for being honest.  And I agree with you 100%

pfl, you must understand that there is a difference between you and someone who dedicates their life not only to a job, but to a CAUSE.  Your motivation is different, not necessarily wrong, but insulting to those who have more altruistic reasons for joining the CF.  If you do join with your current plan, I would suggest you keep mum about your plan to "hit and run".  You will find most members dislike that idea.


----------



## pfl (4 Aug 2008)

As I said earlier in this very same thread, I love this country as much as everyone else here. If you come to Montreal and pass by my house you'll probably see the only Canadian flag in all of Quebec flying proudly outside. I want to get into the CF for nationalistic reasons as well as to challenge and advance myself. Does a person have to devote their entire adult life, 25, 30 years before you will stand by them on a battlefield?

If I was some 18 year old single guy I wouldnt have the same type of questions or goals with my life, but if you read the title of this thread you would see that its quite different from that. Should I make a 12 year commitement and then have my family destroyed because they cant handle military life? So far I've gotten as much info as humanly possible regarding the military lifestyle, and my wife is as excited about this new time in our lives as I am, shes even down with moving to Cold Lake lol. I'm no idiot though, lets see where we stand after 5 years eh?


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## cp140tech (4 Aug 2008)

Don't worry about your motivation for joining.... there are plenty of folks walking around in uniform who joined on a whim and picked their trade on the next whim.  I have no idea what motivated my peers to join, and I don't care.  

Your performance at work will tell us all that we need to know about you as a member of the CF.  People don't walk around on the flight line talking about saving the world.  We're here to generate serviceable aircraft and components; to support flight operations.  Your point of view and beliefs will determine who you socialize with outside of work...  your work ethic and ability to safely perform your job will build your reputation with your peers and supervisors.

Good luck and enjoy your time in uniform, no matter how long it lasts.


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## pfl (4 Aug 2008)

Oh man I'm so psyched to get signed up its sick  :threat:

 I plan to hold off until January, even though I know it may take up to 12 months to get in, I also know it could be as soon as a month and I would like to spend the holidays w/ my family. The wait is killing me


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> I would like to spend the holidays w/ my family.



So would all the troops who are deployed this year, last year, the year before...


----------



## pfl (5 Aug 2008)

Ok Mr. Negativity, I can sympathize w/ their families, and am well aware of the sacrifices made throughout a CF career by all parties involved. Since you seem to be such an ass, I'll put it to you bluntly, for the next 5 years minimum I may not have this luxury, and even if I do I may be stationed somewhere off in the Arctic, so I'll take advantage of my current situation while I still can. Don't hate, makes you seem petty. Did you not have a good home life or something growing up? :'(


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## aesop081 (5 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Since you seem to be such an ass,




Pot, kettle......


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Ok Mr. Negativity, I can sympathize w/ their families, and am well aware of the sacrifices made throughout a CF career by all parties involved. Since you seem to be such an ***, I'll put it to you bluntly, for the next 5 years minimum I may not have this luxury, and even if I do I may be stationed somewhere off in the Arctic, so I'll take advantage of my current situation while I still can. Don't hate, makes you seem petty. Did you not have a good home life or something growing up? :'(



All I said was so would the troop deployed this year, last year, etc...and from that, you got your knickers in a knot?  I say it like it is, you don't seem to be able to handle that and call me names and ask me about my home life?  To answer your question, I can be an ***, just like anyone else, and my home life was that of a kid who grew up with a father who was aircrew on an ASW platform during the Cold War and was away alot.  I joined when I was 18, 6 years after he got out after 29 years of service.  Answer your question?

You might want to consider that lots of people on this forum have been deployed, missed ALL kinds of family events, etc. 

So far, your posts here come off as "its all about me" and I'm calling you on it.  Get used to it, I guess is my advice.  You are supposed to be joining a group of people who serve Canada, yet so far it seems like you want Canada to serve you.

If all you can do is the playground name-calling replies to my posts, please take it to PMs, and I will be glad to reply.


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## Sub_Guy (5 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> I plan to hold off until January, even though I know it may take up to 12 months to get in, I also know it could be as soon as a month and I would like to spend the holidays w/ my family. The wait is killing me




Just sign up already!  Even if you sign up now you will still have the Holidays with your family!  You don't go from BMQ straight to KAF.....  Some might think the military is run like a prison, but you do get breaks over the holidays, especially if you are at a training establishment.



			
				pfl said:
			
		

> I'll put it to you bluntly, for the next 5 years minimum I may not have this luxury, and even if I do I may be stationed somewhere off in the Arctic, so I'll take advantage of my current situation while I still can.



Stationed somewhere off in the Arctic?  Did I miss something?  Other than Alert what stationing are you talking about?   Last time I heard families were permitted in Yellowknife!


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## pfl (5 Aug 2008)

From 





			
				Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> You don't go from BMQ straight to KAF.....
> 
> Stationed somewhere off in the Arctic?  Did I miss something?  Other than Alert what stationing are you talking about?   Last time I heard families were permitted in Yellowknife!


From what I've been told by different people the bus departs straight from St. Jean to Borden, no?

As for the Arctic I was talking about Cold Lake, kind of a joke there ;D





			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I say it like it is, you don't seem to be able to handle that and call me names and ask me about my home life?  To answer your question, I can be an ***, just like anyone else, and my home life was that of a kid who grew up with a father who was aircrew on an ASW platform during the Cold War and was away alot.  I joined when I was 18, 6 years after he got out after 29 years of service.  Answer your question?
> 
> You might want to consider that lots of people on this forum have been deployed, missed ALL kinds of family events, etc.
> 
> ...


As for you, kind sir, every post of yours that I see on these boeards is you dumping on some noob. So I'm not yet a true blue CF member. Because you have a family history with this, do you feel you're any better than your fellow CF members?

"Its all about me" at this stage of the game, it kind of is, no? Its a different story when I get in, if hope to g-d I get accepted, but until then, why would I even be on these boards if I was to just blindly rush into this? Why, in another thread on milnet one guy was complaining how he had recieved a pay-cut when he had signed documentation guaranteeing him higher wages, therefor he was able to restore his pay eventually to its previous status. Would you tell him hes a scumbag for holding on to that documentation? C'mon bro, you know the answer to that.


----------



## aesop081 (5 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> From From what I've been told by different people the bus departs straight from St. Jean to Borden, no?



You still get time off during the hollidays. Or did you just decide to ignore that part of the man's post ?


----------



## Sub_Guy (5 Aug 2008)

Even if the bus does leave right away, what's the big deal?  You live in Montreal so most likely you will be driving yourself to Borden (if you want your car there), and as it has been posted your family can follow you.  

So while you are away on Basic you will get to see your family on weekends (after week 4 or whatever the freedom week is now), then your family can join you in Borden, they will also follow you on your next posting.

You are in a much better position than most personnel who join the forces.  Your family is going to be close to you for most of your training time.


----------



## pfl (5 Aug 2008)

Believe me, I am well aware that I will be extremely lucky in that, after week 4, I will be able to see my wife and son on weekends (as long as everythings moving smoothly w/training). What of the young mother or father from BC who can hope for no more than a webcam or something, right? I can appreciate that and am thankful.

As for my family joining me on my first posting after Borden, would that even make sense? Isn't when I would go off to a training squadron for only something like 1 month?


----------



## smale436 (5 Aug 2008)

I am not quite sure what you refer to as a training squadron. All your training as an AVN tech will be done in Borden. People leaving St. Jean will likely be boarding a bus the day after their grad. Some have left the same day. If you are taking your car to Borden, you will likely have a few days to get there and report. I am not too familiar with the procedure of getting yourself a PMQ since St. Jean (BMQ) to Borden is a non-IRP move as far as I know, however most people I knew during my stay at CFSATE applied for one after they got there and had their families and effects arrive later on. Until they arrive you will be put into the shacks with sep expense and free R and Q. You will have a bit of a wait for your course that could be weeks or months and being on PAT platoon you will have a fair bit of time to get your families living situation arranged. They will give you some relocation leave to get settled as well.
      As far as spending time at a training squadron, not so much in the last while. Perhaps you are thinking of out of town taskings that they often give to people with the longer wait times for course. They are generally a good go. I spent four months in Cold Lake doing WASF duties while awaiting my POET training. If you are not so keen on that, there were generally more single people volunteering so they could get a change in scenery. (Spend long enough in PAT platoon you will understand what I mean) That said, if they select you to go "I have a wife and kids here" will generally not be a valid reason to get out of it. There were a few OJT positions for PATS at some bases out of town and some at 400 Squadron in Borden, but they were few and far between. Most taskings out of town were not trade related. 
       So to sum it up, yes it would make sense to have your family join you. You are probably looking at spending a year in Borden MINIMUM.


----------



## belka (5 Aug 2008)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> I spent four months in Cold Lake doing WASF duties while awaiting my POET training.



4 months?? I wanted to shoot myself after one rotation.

pfl, you should just join already, from the Air Force perspective it's generally a good go. I couldn't imagin doing anything else right now or being stuck in some crappy civy office cubicle. If you end up in an operational squadron you get to travel alot, although some places are better than others.   You get a steady paycheck, an above average salary and all the sunshine that a Cold Lake winter can offer. Also, I would like to point out that I'd take a posting to Yellowknife in a second.


----------



## smale436 (6 Aug 2008)

Ya Ninja I get where you are coming from. We were actually doing Maple Flag gate duty in 06 when Flag was actually a "big" event. The 5 days off after each shift schedule generally spent on Whyte Ave in Edmonton made it easy to cope. 
    On a positive note, it introduced me to the place that would become my new home two years later. After four months, I quite like it here. And no I don't have a quad nor do I hunt/fish. With my place backing on to the woods and quad trail, I hear and see quads so much that they annoy me much more than the jets ever could. After spending time in Calgary, Edmonton, and Winnipeg last week I was quite happy to return to a place where people do not drive like idiots. Maybe it is the so-called Cold Lake curse but I cannot see myself being able to move back to a large city. It is what you make of it and not that bad. But that is just my opinion!

     Sunshine. Cold Lake Winter. Do those words go together or is that sarcasm at its best?  I heard it gets very dark ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> As for you, kind sir, every post of yours that I see on these boeards is you dumping on some noob.



Kind of shooting yourself in the foot there, aren't you?



> Because you have a family history with this, do you feel you're any better than your fellow CF members?



No.


----------



## pfl (6 Aug 2008)

CDNAIRFORCE , thanks for all the great info. There is no going back for me. The whole family thing is not the only reason I'm holding off until January, I also have a commitement to my current job. I stopped taking on new clients in the last 3 months but I still have to maintain a relationship w/those I have remaining.

I also am aware that I will be in Borden for a year plus, and have nothing against that, I'm open to be sent off to Texas or Germany or wherever Im needed or have the luck to get offered. The taking family with question was based on my understanding that once schooling is completed at Borden, according to the info givien on th CF website, AVN's get sent to a training squadron for a short period, a few weeks tops, then off to your first posting. If thats wrong, whatever, but Im not going to avoid a posting or something just because I will be away from wife and kid for 1 or 2 months. I dont want to have to pack up all our belongings every 3 months ya know?  

Ninja, Im with you all the way. Air Force boyee


----------



## aesop081 (6 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> I'm open to be sent off to Texas or Germany



You wont be.


----------



## pfl (6 Aug 2008)

And why is that......


----------



## aesop081 (6 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> And why is that......



We dont have anything in Texas and for the NATO posting in Germany, the numbers are small and none of the guys there are new to the CF


----------



## pfl (6 Aug 2008)

Oh ok thats cool. I had I guess heard of those places somewhere on these boards, I had been tryng to kind of make a point that I dont actually care where I get sent off to > :threat: :skull:


----------



## aesop081 (6 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Oh ok thats cool. I had I guess heard of those places somewhere on these boards, I had been tryng to kind of make a point that I dont actually care where I get sent off to > :threat: :skull:



No worries, i just didnt want you to have grand ideas of going to Germany straight out of training.

Cheers


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> No worries, i just didnt want you to have grand ideas of going to Germany straight out of training.
> 
> Cheers



However, I have a buddy who is AVN, his first posting was CYZX, and is now posted to the AWACS component in ETNG as his second posting.  4-5 years in the trade counting coursing and he gets an OUTCAN.  Not bad.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> However, I have a buddy who is AVN, his first posting was CYZX, and is now posted to the AWACS component in ETNG as *his second posting*.  4-5 years in the trade counting coursing and he gets an OUTCAN.  Not bad.



Thank you for comfirming what i said before.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thank you for comfirming what i said before.



LOl well I guess I was just trying to say it is possible for a seond posting...don't want to discourage _everyone_ afterall...we need 500 series to keep things flying  8)


----------



## aesop081 (6 Aug 2008)

i never said it was impossible for a second posting......just for him not to go thinking he will leave Borden and go to GK.


----------



## pfl (7 Aug 2008)

500 series? Is that a slanted remark to new trainees or grads   ( here come the mods "USE SEARCH!!!)


----------



## WrenchBender (7 Aug 2008)

a long time ago 500 series technician trades consisted of :
511 Aero Engine*
512 Airframe*
513 Aviation (At WO * trades become this)
521 Integral Systems@
522 Radar Systems@
523 Communication Systems@
524 Communication and Radar@ (mid 80's 522 & 523 joined)
525 Avionics (At WO @ trades become this)
531 Safety Systems
541 Photo 
551 Instrument and Electrical
561 Metal 
562 Machinist
563 Refinisher
571 Weapons Tech (air) 
572 Air Weapons System (mid 80's new trade with POET training)

after trade amalgamation we were left with
514 Avaition
526 Avionics
541 Imaging
565 Aircraft Structures

After MOSART trades were renumbered mine is now 00135 I have no idea on the others.

WrenchBender


----------



## pfl (7 Aug 2008)

Thank you.
So how does somebody get involved w/all these different jobs in the previous 500 series? I want to become an AVN-Tech, so after Borden or when reaching Cpl., is that when you can specialize or something?




Edit: Actually I recognize alot of these jobs as ones you sign-up into off the bat, but not weapons tech, unless Im wrong....


----------



## aesop081 (7 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Thank you.
> So how does somebody get involved w/all these different jobs in the previous 500 series? I want to become an AVN-Tech, so after Borden or when reaching Cpl., is that when you can specialize or something?



Where you are employed and which area of the trade you work in will be up to your first unit.





> Edit: Actually I recognize alot of these jobs as ones you sign-up into off the bat, but not weapons tech, unless Im wrong....



Air Weapons Technicians no longer exists. It is part of the AVN trade. ( Well, not for much longer....)


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## WrenchBender (7 Aug 2008)

Pfl
Depending on the type you are posted to, will affect the specialties/area of expertise available to you. Every fleet has different demands on the techs and until you get out to the real world (after school) and qualified in the basics you will not be able to make an educated decision on specializing. Sign up, go to CFSATE, get posted to a unit, and get through the type course. then start worrying about the fancy/extra stuff. It takes years to become competent in your chosen trade, think baby steps for now.

WrenchBender


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## pfl (7 Aug 2008)

Sounds good to me Wrenchbender 



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Air Weapons Technicians no longer exists. It is part of the AVN trade. ( Well, not for much longer....)


 Well I guess Im a long ways off from choosing specialty, but weapons tech air seems quite interesting, whats going to happen w/that trade?


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## aesop081 (7 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Well I guess Im a long ways off from choosing specialty,



I never said you would be allowed to "choose"




> but weapons tech air seems quite interesting, whats going to happen w/that trade?



It is becoming its own trade once again. Not sure when it will happen though.


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## pfl (7 Aug 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I never said you would be allowed to "choose"


 :rage:


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## cp140tech (7 Aug 2008)

As WrenchBender said, your opportunities for specialty training will depend on the unit/section you work in.  As you become competant in your basic job function, you will find areas that appeal to you and will be able to request specialty training.  Subject to availability and your supervisor's discretion you may or may not get what you're after..... usually people who work at it get what they want.

But don't worry too much about that stuff for now.  Lots of time later.


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## pfl (8 Aug 2008)

So I finally actually went down to the RC yesterday after work, to try and get as much info as possible about the trade, and that was a fun little experience to say the least lol Man do they want to push that subsidized enrollement plan. Basically you get started in university (its a 3 year course) apply then to the CF and if they take you they will reimburse whatever you paid to get in school, then you move into a reserve position, working week-ends and summer. But they lady I spoke with, who was actually an AVN by trade (lucky lucky) was adamant that I would be Regular Force. Truth be told I didnt really believe her in that respect, but whatever. All the other info I got was great. Earlier in this thread it was said that the course for AVN Tech 's was getting reduced to like 6 or 9 months, according to the people I spoke w/at the RC it is actually an 18 month course, previously 24. I actually have no interest in taking the subsidized route, but i can see why they push it. Basically if you're a moron and start flunking courses, the CF can drop you like a bad habit, If you're at Borden I guess it costs alot more to keep you around or whatever they do with douchebags. I have no intention on flunking anything, never have, never will. 


Weapons Tech is becoming part of the Armament Trade btw

Plus hey! I got a shiny pen  ;D


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## crankywitch (18 Aug 2008)

*Hi all, I am (pte) currently in Borden finishing up my AVN course, My common law hubby (sgt infantry) will be posted to Edmonton in feb, and we are trying to get a posting together out there, my question is what can I expect when i start my QL5 there, like what is day to day life like for the avn students? I have heard different stories like "your in the field alot, and you do pt with the infantry guys every morning, and the days are really long, don't expect to be home at 5" ect.. and then other stories say the opposite, so I would like to get the real story from someone who is currently there and can give me the real deal. Cool Thanks in advance to anyone who responds.. ;D*


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## belka (19 Aug 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong, since you'll be working on the Griffins, your QL5 course will be in Montreal. I would expect a lot of field exercises with the Army, doing most of the maintenance in the field. Since Edmonton is an Army base, I would expect nothing less than PT every morning, something that is lacking, IMO, in many Air Force bases/units.

BTW, shouldn't this be in the Maintainer's Bench section?


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## crankywitch (19 Aug 2008)

No, the QL5 is your type course, so whatever base you are posted to you learn to fix that type of aircraft, the QL3 course which is what I am on now is the precursor to that and it is taught in Borden Ontario,as for which section this should be in I thought this was the right section, and I do not know what a "maintainer bench section" is, I was just putting this out there and hoping to get a few responses from people who are there or have been there. Thanks have a great day.


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## aesop081 (19 Aug 2008)

crankywitch said:
			
		

> No, the QL5 is your type course, so whatever base you are posted to you learn to fix that type of aircraft,



The type course for CH-146 maintainers in in St-Hubert, PQ with 438 Sqn.



			
				crankywitch said:
			
		

> and I do not know what a "maintainer bench section" is,



It is the section of this site dedicated to aviation maintenance trades and related topics.


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## crankywitch (19 Aug 2008)

Oh ok, thanks, I will take a look but because it's Edmonton i'm not sure they could help me, but you never know.


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## aesop081 (19 Aug 2008)

crankywitch said:
			
		

> Oh ok, thanks, I will take a look but because it's Edmonton i'm not sure they could help me, but you never know.



So you understand that if you get posted with the husband to Edmonton, your training for the CH-146 will be done at another base ?


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## crankywitch (19 Aug 2008)

I am currently on the AVN course here in borden and it has been shortened to 8-10 mos as stated earlier, 8-10 being they say 8 but with holidays ect it turns out to be at least 9 and if you have to sit (which is waiting for another course to finish a section of the training before your course can get in) it could be 10, example: I started my course in april- and was told we would be finished 9 jan, so we are 6 mos in and after the hydrauics part of this course we will have to sit for at leas 3 weeks until room in landing gear becomes avail..so now they are saying we will finish end feb beginning of march if there are no more set backs. As for PMQ there are lots available and a friend of mine didn't have to much prob getting one for himself and his pregnant wife, as with anything there will be a bit of running around to do but you will get one, and they aren't too bad as far as PMQ's go, just the typical ones and they don't have basements because they are apparently built on very sandy ground,hope this help a little.


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## pfl (19 Aug 2008)

Sure does! Any info you can give is appreciated probably more than you realize  ;D When you signed up for our beloved CF, did they try and push you into a certain entry plan or give you any options? Just curious, but what is your class make-up like? Age, gender, all that bs   :threat:


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## crankywitch (19 Aug 2008)

No they didn't try to set my mind on something else but I was set on AVN, though they(recruiting) did feed me a lot of BS about other things which would be too long to get into, all I can say is be prepared, make sure you dot all your i's and cross all your t's with personal business before joining, ie: if you need to put stuff in storage make sure you do it after your enrollment, I believe you said you are married or common-law: make sure you have documented proof stuff like that. Borden itself is a little crazy, room inspection every fri, every tues is DEU inspection and you wear them alllllllll day even if working on the air craft (though you do have coveralls but when working with hydraulics of other messy stuff sometmes they are not enough)and if your hair's not cut right or you have a stain or spot or your boots aren't polished enough you WILL get weekend duties, there are a lot of "kids" here and some are absolutly riducles and do stupid stuff so it's easy to get fed up, they are strict around here because of they idiots they have to deal with around here but not too bad if you don't screw around they will treat you with respect if you treat them with espect,also when you do finish basic they usually send you here with a few days (if you grad on the thurs you will be here by the mon) and you will have to wait a few months to start your courses: first is BAEQ (basic air enviromental qualification) which is a week long snooze fest(though this you might get in right away)is basically learning a bit of history of the air force and some minor other stuff but it's all on power point so you start to go buggy after awhile, then you will sit for a couple months and finally start your common-core which is learning about the different tools, how to lock-wire, how to fill out all the 20 something different aircraft maintenance forms, marshalling; it's a precusor to the QL3 and is 36 days long (in class) so with holidays/weekends ect it will be longer, then if you are lucky within a few weeks you will be put in AVN course but prob not because there are people that have been sitting here right now for a couple months waiting to get on a course, so look at at least a good year and a half before all is said and done.


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## crankywitch (19 Aug 2008)

HMMM I think it's done there though I could be wrong but why would they be posting me there for my 5's if I can't be trained there? guess time will tell..but i'm pretty sure i'm trained there..


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## aesop081 (19 Aug 2008)

crankywitch said:
			
		

> HMMM I think it's done there though I could be wrong but why would they be posting me there for my 5's if I can't be trained there? guess time will tell..but i'm pretty sure i'm trained there..



I dont have all the facts of your situation but if you are being "posted" to Edmonton after your AVN QL3 , then you are not just going there for your type course. Whe i was working at a Tac Hel Sqn, technicians for the CH-146 were being trained at 438 but that was 3 years ago so things could have changed.


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## Loachman (19 Aug 2008)

crankywitch - check your PMs.


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## Loachman (20 Aug 2008)

From what I've been able to find out from asking some of our techs around here:

- You get posted to a Squadron, which in your case appears to be 408 Squadron.

- You do approximately six months of OJT, and there is a list of tasks that have to be performed during that period, in order to gain some familiarity with the aircraft and maintenance practices.

- You then go to 438 ETAH in St-Hubert for your formal course, which is three to four months long depending upon trade.

You could PM Laps on this site for 408 Squadron-specific questions.

Time spent in the field is not as much as it used to be, but there is a fair amount of away-time for aircrew and to a lesser degree for techs on a variety of taskings.

All Reg Force-Heavy Tac Hel Squadrons are located on Army bases, but that doesn't mean that you do the same amount of PT as somebody in an Army unit would do. There isn't as much time, for one. We have a Tuesday-morning sports period here and a Friday-morning "CO's Fitness Walk" on which everybody goes the same distance but load is up to the individual. Some will wear helmet, tac vest, and rucksack but many wear less. We all do the BFT, as that is the standard for deployment, in autumn/early winter. 408 Squadron probably does much the same.


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## cp140tech (20 Aug 2008)

crankywitch said:
			
		

> HMMM I think it's done there though I could be wrong but why would they be posting me there for my 5's if I can't be trained there? guess time will tell..but i'm pretty sure i'm trained there..



  It's easier to have one main training location for each fleet, than to establish a school at every wing in Canada.  People get posted into Comox, do their OJT, go to Greenwood for type training and then return to their position in Comox.  I believe the Herc school is in Trenton, Sea Kings here in Shearwater... not sure if all the 18 folks train in Cold lake, but I expect you get the picture.


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## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

Yo yo yo guess what people!? Went down to the CFRC again tonight cause I was in the area and had just some quick questions, anyhow got some wicked news   Wanted to ask about pension plan, entry plans, and recruitment allowances. Turns out that if I don't want to enter through the subsidized route I can still just go straight through to Reg force and attend Borden (as long as my application goes smoothly), and it wouldn't be held as against me so-to-say in the long run. I knew that the recruitment allowances discussed in another thread were only for those who were already trained as AVN's, but I was curious if there were any signing bonuses for straight walk in recruits. Turns out that after something like 1 years service after training you go to Corporal, and begin at level 3 Pte pay rate after Basic. That's called money in the BANK! I was tempted to sign in right there. I dont think I have this wrong, but if anybody knows better or entered through with the same benefits feel free

I asked them though if it wasn't kind of strange to have 1 year Cpl's bossing around 3 year Pte's...they said it was no big deal because the relationship between Cpl's and Pte's isn't really a leadership role. Does this make sense to anybody?


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Yo yo yo guess what people!? Went down to the CFRC again tonight cause I was in the area and had just some quick questions, anyhow got some wicked news   Wanted to ask about pension plan, entry plans, and recruitment allowances. Turns out that if I don't want to enter through the subsidized route I can still just go straight through to Reg force and attend Borden (as long as my application goes smoothly), and it wouldn't be held as against me so-to-say in the long run. I knew that the recruitment allowances discussed in another thread were only for those who were already trained as AVN's, but I was curious if there were any signing bonuses for straight walk in recruits. Turns out that after something like 1 years service after training you go to Corporal, and begin at level 3 Pte pay rate after Basic. That's called money in the BANK! I was tempted to sign in right there. I dont think I have this wrong, but if anybody knows better or entered through with the same benefits feel free
> 
> I asked them though if it wasn't kind of strange to have 1 year Cpl's bossing around 3 year Pte's...they said it was no big deal because the relationship between Cpl's and Pte's isn't really a leadership role. Does this make sense to anybody?



Rank may be authority but it is not always knowledge.  Cpls and Ptes work close together and usually there is a shop/floor Cpl that keep a grip on things.  You will likely find if you go 'bossing people around' with no TI (time in) a MCpl might happen along and pull you aside and set things straight.  However, in the tech trades, your knowledge does translate to authority somewhat differenly I find, then the army.

However, despite what they said,  I disagree that Cpls don't play a leadership role, per se.  Cpl's can and do lead, Cpl's can give lawful commands, and Cpl's are Junior NCOs.  Period.  Cpls may not play much of a "management" role, which is a totally different topic.  Leadership does not equal management.


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## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

I've worked in management positions for some time now, and I agree, management and leadership are definitely 2 different things. Knowledge is always the key in both though


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## PMedMoe (22 Aug 2008)

Heck, I've seen three-year Ptes leading Cpls.  Just depends on who's the SME, right?  In this case it was someone with 3 years at a field unit training Cpls with no field time.
If you look at Lab Techs, they get in (already trained) get their Cpls after finishing basic and their MCpls a year (?) after that, IIRC.


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## cp140tech (22 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> I asked them though if it wasn't kind of strange to have 1 year Cpl's bossing around 3 year Pte's...they said it was no big deal because the relationship between Cpl's and Pte's isn't really a leadership role. Does this make sense to anybody?



  If you started bossing around Ptes as an unqualified Cpl... you would get smacked.  You don't know how to do anything, exactly what would you be telling them to do?  Our work environment is very knowledge/qualification based; you will be relying on the Ptes/Cpls who hold the quals to show you how the jobs are done.... you will be on the receiving end of direction for some time.  
  The same thing happens when you change fleets during your career.  I'm an AVN MCpl who has just been posted from Auroras to Sea Kings... when I go back to work off of leave the first thing I'm doing is finding the Ptes/Cpls who know what's going on and sucking every bit of info from them I can.  I  know squat about Sea Kings ... so it's start from scratch again.  You'll find rank has it's place, but don't push it to the forefront when it's not required.


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## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

mr peabody said:
			
		

> If you started bossing around Ptes as an unqualified Cpl... you would get smacked.  You don't know how to do anything, exactly what would you be telling them to do?  Our work environment is very knowledge/qualification based; you will be relying on the Ptes/Cpls who hold the quals to show you how the jobs are done.... you will be on the receiving end of direction for some time.
> The same thing happens when you change fleets during your career.  I'm an AVN MCpl who has just been posted from Auroras to Sea Kings... when I go back to work off of leave the first thing I'm doing is finding the Ptes/Cpls who know what's going on and sucking every bit of info from them I can.  I  know squat about Sea Kings ... so it's start from scratch again.  You'll find rank has it's place, but don't push it to the forefront when it's not required.


 Yeah thats pretty much what I was thinking.  

Has anybody here though gotten in through the same entry plan as I mentioned? Like what, you go to Cpl 1 year after getting your QL3's? And lvl 3 Pte pay is from when, BMQ?! or is that after Q's again.


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## eurowing (22 Aug 2008)

By the time you get through basic training, through your trades training in Borden and through your type course past Apprentice to Journeyman you might, and I say might, be eligible for an advanced promotion to Cpl.  Don't plan your mortgage on it though.  In other words, plan on 4 years to Cpl, unless you are very good.


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## belka (22 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Yeah thats pretty much what I was thinking.
> 
> Has anybody here though gotten in through the same entry plan as I mentioned? Like what, you go to Cpl 1 year after getting your QL3's? And lvl 3 Pte pay is from when, BMQ?! or is that after Q's again.



IMO, that is the recruiting office just feeding you BS. You will get your lvl3 Pte's after 3 years in and might get your cpl's earlier than 4. Advanced promotion to Cpl depends on you performance, attitude and leadership on the floor. Even after all that it depends on your supervisor and unit. So far in the 30 months at my sqn, I've only seen 2 advanced promotions to cpl.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

NINJA said:
			
		

> IMO, that is the recruiting office just feeding you BS. You will get your lvl3 Pte's after 3 years in and might get your cpl's earlier than 4. Advanced promotion to Cpl depends on you performance, attitude and leadership on the floor. Even after all that it depends on your supervisor and unit. So far in the 30 months at my sqn, I've only seen 2 advanced promotions to cpl.



IIRC, the OP has experience on the civilian side.  Perhaps he is entering under the semi-skilled or skilled entry plan?

PFL, what was the name of the entry plan the CFRC staff mentioned, do you recall?  What is your previous experience?


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## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> PFL, what was the name of the entry plan the CFRC staff mentioned, do you recall?  What is your previous experience?


 I basically walked in to the RC and told them that I heard of the recruitment allowances that were announced for skilled personnel (they looked like they had no clue what I was talking about lol) and was wondering if there were any signing bonuses for the AVN-TECH trade seeing as how its an under-manned trade. It wasnt as blunt as that I guess, I did have other questions  : Told them I had no previous skill in the trade, but had High school and CEGEP (in Quebec after high school grade 11 its CEGEP for 2 or 3 years, then on to University, kind of like a junior college type) guy sat down looked up some stuff in his computer and file cabinet and told me about the bonuses I outlined before. Didnt give me a name of the program or anything, but you damn well better believe I'm going to try and get everything in writing when I sign the dotted line. 

How likely is that btw  :blotto:


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

I can almost assure you that, if you have no civilian qualifications and previous military experience, there is no chance of being a Cpl after a year.  You won't even be done of your 3s at that time.


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## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

Thats what makes sense to me but the two guys I spoke with who where Army Sgt.'s explained it differently. Maybe they didnt explain it well enough or without too much detail but I will be sure to call the RC when I get out of the office today for clarification.


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## smale436 (22 Aug 2008)

Not only that, there is no chance of a signing bonus for the AVN tech trade in your situation. The signing bonus is for people who are semi or fully qualified aircraft mechanics in the civilian world. Also, there is a signing bonus plan for retired military personnel who decide to re-join. Why would they give someone a signing bonus (no matter how undermanned they are) when they will have to spend a TONNE of money housing, feeding, training you (plus a decent salary) over the course of two years. At the NSCC campus in Halifax where I took my QL3's, there were also civilian students undergoing a 2 year AME course. The CF came in and did a recruiting drive for them. I don't recall the entry plan, but those people would have had to go to Borden (after completing their civy course and BMQ in the summer) only for armament and common core and would be Cpl's when they finish those portions. Keep in mind though that unlike you, they were for the most part fully qualified upon their arrival in Borden and also had spent $10000-20000 on their tuition at NSCC. Hence their entitlement to advanced Cpl and perhaps a singing bonus. In the case of someone joining an undermanned (red) trade with no experience whatsoever you would be a Private for likely four years with no signing incentives. If the RC told you you are entitled to a signing bonus but you have never worked on an aircraft before, I would investigate that further because something doesn't sound right.


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## Eye In The Sky (22 Aug 2008)

...and they still had to do BMQ and pass....


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## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

CDNAIRFORCE said:
			
		

> I would investigate that further because something doesn't sound right.


Sounds like a plan


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## aesop081 (22 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> where Army Sgt.'s explained it differently. Maybe they didnt explain it well enough or without too much detail



Or you just didnt understand what was said to you.

Or you heard what you wanted to hear.

Could be lots of things......


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## Sub_Guy (22 Aug 2008)

pfl said:
			
		

> Didnt give me a name of the program or anything, but you damn well better believe I'm going to try and get everything in writing when I sign the dotted line.
> 
> How likely is that btw  :blotto:



You will get all kinds of things in writing, then you will get things in writing that are the complete opposite of the original.   Getting it writing doesn't really mean much.


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## kincanucks (22 Aug 2008)

You are entitled to nothing.  Your entry plan will be Unskilled NCM or NCM Subsidized Education Plan (SEP) if the trade you want is available under that plan and IF you meet the educational requirements for entry into the plan.  The only thing you will get in writing is your offer, whether you accept it or not is up to you.


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## belka (22 Aug 2008)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> You are entitled to nothing.  Your entry plan will be Unskilled NCM or NCM Subsidized Education Plan (SEP) if the trade you want is available under that plan and IF you meet the educational requirements for entry into the plan.  The only thing you will get in writing is your offer, whether you accept it or not is up to you.



I'm thinking the same.

Pfl, since you have no civy aviation experience, you will most likely go through the standard AVN-tech training program. Unless your contract states something otherwise, expect Borden for your QL3's along with moving up the ranks like everyone else. You have to remember that recruiters are just trying to fill their quota's (if there is a such a thing) for the month and will tell you pretty much anything. Before you sign, make sure you know exactly what your career path will be and what incentives, if any, they offer in your contract.


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## Sparkplugs (22 Aug 2008)

And make sure they tell you the correct wages you'll be getting AFTER deductions...  Sometimes it's less than you think.


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## pfl (22 Aug 2008)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> You are entitled to nothing.  Your entry plan will be Unskilled NCM or NCM Subsidized Education Plan (SEP) if the trade you want is available under that plan and IF you meet the educational requirements for entry into the plan.  The only thing you will get in writing is your offer, whether you accept it or not is up to you.


Hooray!!


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## Rye719 (31 Aug 2008)

Hey Guys...

    I have a couple questions about the AVN Tech World.  
Im currently in the military but looking to O.T in a year or two, I just have to finsih up few things in my army career before I make the switch to the blue side of community.   

My first question is that Im very interested in becoming a AVN Tech and Im aware that it is low on numbers rigth now,  Will it still be looking for alot of people in year and a half from now once my commitments are fullfilled in the army.    Or Should I jump the gun and move now!!!!

My second question is where is the  most likly place to get posted once i graduate from borden?   The Wife and I arn't to keen on Cold Lake,  But we'd stick it out of we had to.  Also do you guys get moved around every few years?   If so are thoes moves mandatory or is it prefrence based? 

Thank you for any help you can offer
-Ryan


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## aesop081 (31 Aug 2008)

Rye719 said:
			
		

> My first question is that Im very interested in becoming a AVN Tech and Im aware that it is low on numbers rigth now,  Will it still be looking for alot of people in year and a half from now once my commitments are fullfilled in the army.    Or Should I jump the gun and move now!!!!



Trade is always going to be short from what i can see.



> If so are thoes moves mandatory or is it prefrence based?



If you are already in the military, you should know how that works.


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## cp140tech (31 Aug 2008)

Rye719 said:
			
		

> Hey Guys...
> 
> I have a couple questions about the AVN Tech World.
> Im currently in the military but looking to O.T in a year or two, I just have to finsih up few things in my army career before I make the switch to the blue side of community.
> ...



  I expect we'll need new bodies for some time to come... like most of the CF.  There's not really any way to tell you where you'll be posted, it seems that a fair number of new people are posted to Cold Lake... but there have been plenty of new folks in all the bases I've worked at.
  Standard postings for us seem to be 8-10 years at the Cpl/MCpl level... but there are exceptions.  Most techs who are happy with their location/fleet will get the 8-10 years; some get 15 or more.
  There's plenty of info on the site for you to browse.  If you have any specific questions, please feel free to fire me a PM and I'll give you as much information as i can.


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## smale436 (31 Aug 2008)

Don't sweat the posting too much Rye 19. Not saying you will go there, but Cold Lake isn't that bad and is getting larger all the time. It is what you make of it, which can be said for any posting. Half of the people (in my experience) that say the typical "Cold Lake sucks" spiel have never even been there and the other half are here now but don't find constructive, after-work, non "getting drunk every day" activities to participate in. As a 26 year old single person, it is one place I would want to raise kids if I had any. Simply because you don't have to worry about a lot of the things the way you would in a metropolitan area. I just returned from a three day shopping/visit relatives trip to Edmonton. I was happy to return home and be away from the traffic, road construction, and crime. And even if I did hate it, if I had a new neighbour move in and ask "how do you like it here?" I would not go into a diatribe about all the town's shortcomings. I would say it's ok and let him make his own assessments and opinions simply because if I was the person moving in, I would not want my wife and kids to overhear every possible bad thing about their new home town before they even had a chance to get settled in and make their own judgments.
       Just my two pennnies, but if you are in the army already you probably have heard/experienced everything I just said anyway.


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## bison33 (3 Sep 2008)

Being in 408, though I'm an FE, here's some enlightenment. PT...hahahahaha, though BFT is something we do. 
We do deploy in the field though it's not that bad.
 After you get here and do quite some on the floor, you'll eventually head off to 438 in St. Hubert for the type course, come back with enough knowledge to make you dangerous...lol, j/k and continue to work til you eventually get some level A signing authority. From CFSATE to this can take upwards of 4 years though most likely less. Seeing as the old ATAT stuff is no longer (older techs know what I mean), you'll be 5's qualified after your type course.
TacHel isn't that bad but one of the biggest problems on this base.....clothing stores. Because we are Air Force, many of those robots working there think they own everything and we don't do army stuff so we are not entitled to this or that. 
Just make hubby remuster and then ya can get posted to a real Air Force base ;D
If you have a question or several, just PM me, I check once in a blue moon 8)


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## jacob_ns (25 Sep 2008)

How mechanically minded should a person who is seeking to enter the AVN trade be? 

The trade looks very appealing to me, however i've never been one to come home from work and tear apart a vehicle to fix something outside of basic maintenance. It's not for lack of interest mind you, but lack of a proper workspace and tools.

That said, I can generally disassemble any object and reassemble it correctly provided I have a moderate amoutn of time and the correct tools available. (and sometimes if I don't!)


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## cp140tech (25 Sep 2008)

Having a mechanical background helps, but is not necessary.  Pay attention to the way that the folks you work with go about their jobs, you'll pick up the mindset in no time.  

They'll teach you most of what you need in the training system, the rest you'll gain with practical experience.


----------



## Mirage (21 Dec 2008)

Sorry to dig up an older thread but this seemed like a good spot to ask my question. I've spent many hours reading through a lot of posts here and have found some great information and insight.  But trying to find out some more info specific to AVN techs.

Currently Reserve Navy, but strongly considering going Reg Force AVN Tech.

How much time do AVN techs spend "away from home" (as in away from where's your posted to).  The reason I don't want to go reg force navy is you spend a HUGE amount of you time on ship or at sea and people will spend large chunks of there time away.

As part of the military I understand you can't always be with your loved ones (husband, kids, etc...), and I'm fine with 2-3 months away at a time for training or the occasional 6 month deployment, but I'm not as keen on spending say 10-15 years of a 25 year career from my family that seems to be common in the navy.


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## belka (25 Dec 2008)

Generally, if you are on a land-based fleet (fixed wing) you spend most of your time at the base. There are some excersises where you go away for a month at a time, but nothing to the extent of what the Navy goes through.


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## Metlica (26 Dec 2008)

Hey,
 my bmq course is finishing in 3 weeks from the 4th of jan and whats really bothering me right now is the waiting list for the avn tech course.
Supposedly it's going to be 12 months or so, and that's  a huge amount of time. Does anyone have an approximate waiting list?

As a side note I was told by an instructor that if a waiting time for a crouse is longer than 6 months I get to choose a base to work on as long as the waiting time is.
 I've asked a Ltv(N) and he's asked a  Sergeant about this and supposedly this is what's supposed to happen.

 I'm just confused right now with this damned Avn tech course, Does anyone have a clear insight in this?


----------



## Sparkplugs (26 Dec 2008)

Metlica said:
			
		

> Hey,
> my bmq course is finishing in 3 weeks from the 4th of jan and whats really bothering me right now is the waiting list for the avn tech course.
> Supposedly it's going to be 12 months or so, and that's  a huge amount of time. Does anyone have an approximate waiting list?
> 
> ...



Well, I'm at 8ams in Trenton, and we've received a couple of PAT members, who go on rotations through the different shops to get exposure to the avn trade.  I haven't heard about this 'choosing your base' thing if you're on PAT for over 6 months, because not all bases need, or can take care of having PATs...  Trenton's a big one, I've seen a couple of people end up in Comox, Winnipeg, Greenwood...  Or they can just stick you with a long-term posting in Borden working with supply, or at the cadet camp, or running a canteen somewhere.  Not a bad gig, just stay busy and you'll get through it.  I"ve heard the current wait times are between 6 and 8 months, so don't lose too much hope yet.  It's frustrating, but you'll get there...  At least your course is only 9-11 months, not 16-18 like mine was =)...  But I made it through, and the job is amazing.  I love the hercs, and Trenton's a pretty decent base to live on.  Good luck...  If you need any info on the avn stuff, feel free to PM me anytime.

J


----------



## moog (7 Jan 2009)

Hey I'm trying to find a good place to start my AVN career. I have 3 kids who are in grade school so I really need a place that has facilities/activities to entertain and keep them busy. I guess the main thing I am looking for is a good family friendly posting.
1. Victoria
2. Halifax
3. Moosejaw

Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## ctipz (7 Jan 2009)

I don't think it really matter where you want to go.... The CF will send you where they need you.


----------



## Michael OLeary (7 Jan 2009)

Your question is too vague, you could get strong recommendations for or against a place from someone that you have nothing in common with. 

Try this:

List the possible postings.
Identify and strike out any you really don't want to end up at (but don't be surprised if you do).
Of the remainder, research which ones have the nearby facilities to support what you like to do in your off hours (weekends get pretty long if you're not prepared to do anything).
Examine other factors that might affect your quality of life.
Start ranking the locations by which ones will best offer you what you want.

After you've done that initial assessment, come back with pointed questions to help refine your list and your understanding of the locations you haven't yet crossed off as preferences.


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## Avsguy (8 Jan 2009)

If your looking for a quite family oriented community Greenwood is a great choice too, there are tons of AVN positions there, the only problem is your spouse could have difficulty finding work. Make sure you research all the options before putting the three choices down, junior AVN techs are looking at 5-7 years for their initial posting. Also Moose Jaw is very unlikely simply because of low numbers of positions, but it never hurts to try!


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## zorro (12 Jan 2009)

8 Wing Trenton.


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## observor 69 (12 Jan 2009)

Cold Lake      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFB_Cold_Lake


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## Rifleman62 (19 Jan 2009)

Anyone know of the in and outs of a NCM posting to a USAF base?  Apparently there are restrictions on the size of rental of a residence depending on the rank of the individual;. must rent vice purchase , otherwise no home purchase benefits; and any web sites that can be used for assistance.

Any info would be appreciated.


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## cp140tech (19 Jan 2009)

They're few and far between... the only folks I know of who have spent time in the states as techs were WO and above.  What kind of posting did you have in mind?


----------



## Rifleman62 (19 Jan 2009)

any information/experiences, do's and don't,  to add to the following:

Aside from the usual Web sites for researching housing, there are a few military-specific Web sites, such as:

www.militarybyowner.com 

www.off-basehousing.com

www.militaryavenue.com

www.pcsamerica.net


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## Kid_X (4 Mar 2009)

I just wanted to thank Sparkplugs for the insight, and Metlica for raising the issue. I recently went through a rank reversion, from OCdt to Pte, which took 7 months to finally go through. Now I'm sitting here waiting on a posting message for my AVN Tech QL3s, and nobody at the unit was able to give me any insight at all about approximate wait times or anything. It's already been 2 months waiting for a posting message and I was starting to get curious as to what the hold up was. Glad to hear an approximate waiting time so I can actually get settled in and relax. It'll get here when it gets here.

I'm still living out of boxes. When I moved last year I was told not to unpack, that I wouldn't have time to get comfortable...

On that note, I have a question for anyone that could provide some more insight. I have heard from individuals on course that in order to get a PMQ (assuming availability) you have to be married, common-law, or have dependants. I have heard from others that I will not be getting a PMQ while on course regardless of my common-law status. Is anybody here in the know?


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## Sparkplugs (4 Mar 2009)

In Borden, you won't get a Q unless you're common-law, married, or have partial custody of dependants.  Even being a pregnant girl doesn't guarantee you one, believe it or not, we saw that with one female!  But if you're commonlaw, there's a good chance.  There are a ton of people in Borden, so you might have to wait a bit, one guy on my course had to wait 3 months, but 3 months out of 18 he spent there isn't so bad.  Cheers!



			
				Kid_X said:
			
		

> I just wanted to thank Sparkplugs for the insight, and Metlica for raising the issue. I recently went through a rank reversion, from OCdt to Pte, which took 7 months to finally go through. Now I'm sitting here waiting on a posting message for my AVN Tech QL3s, and nobody at the unit was able to give me any insight at all about approximate wait times or anything. It's already been 2 months waiting for a posting message and I was starting to get curious as to what the hold up was. Glad to hear an approximate waiting time so I can actually get settled in and relax. It'll get here when it gets here.
> 
> I'm still living out of boxes. When I moved last year I was told not to unpack, that I wouldn't have time to get comfortable...
> 
> On that note, I have a question for anyone that could provide some more insight. I have heard from individuals on course that in order to get a PMQ (assuming availability) you have to be married, common-law, or have dependants. I have heard from others that I will not be getting a PMQ while on course regardless of my common-law status. Is anybody here in the know?


----------



## belka (5 Mar 2009)

Kid_X said:
			
		

> On that note, I have a question for anyone that could provide some more insight. I have heard from individuals on course that in order to get a PMQ (assuming availability) you have to be married, common-law, or have dependants. I have heard from others that I will not be getting a PMQ while on course regardless of my common-law status. Is anybody here in the know?



You could try to get an apartment in Barrie or in the area. I know of a few people that did that. One went so far as to buy a house one day....what is CFSATE going to do then? Order him to sell it?  :


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## George Wallace (5 Mar 2009)

belka said:
			
		

> You could try to get an apartment in Barrie or in the area. I know of a few people that did that. One went so far as to buy a house one day....what is CFSATE going to do then? Order him to sell it?  :



You are amazing.  What is CFSATE, no the CF, going to do?  They may just tell him that he is not entitled to any reimbursement of any fees involved in the purchase or resale of the house.  Everything is out of his pocket, with no compensation.  That is what they can do, depending on the circumstances.  Your putting ideas like this, right or wrong, in peoples minds could be costly for some.  Did you know how much this person had in their bank account?  Was he fairly well off/wealthy and could afford such an investment with no financial concerns?  This is an extreme and exceptional case and one that is not wise to be boasting about, as many will not be as well off as this guy appears to have been, and in turn become Administrative Burdens on the CF and face Release.

Shake your head......


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## Sparkplugs (5 Mar 2009)

belka said:
			
		

> You could try to get an apartment in Barrie or in the area. I know of a few people that did that. One went so far as to buy a house one day....what is CFSATE going to do then? Order him to sell it?  :



Well, having spent two years at CFSATE, I can tell you that we had a guy on course who was from Barrie, had an apartment there, and they didn't give a crap.  He had to pay rations and quarters just like the rest of us, and he also paid for his apartment.  He still had to show up to his barracks room every friday morning for room inspections as well.  Another guy was in the same boat, put up his girlfriend in an apartment in Barrie and expected the military to let him live there, but they made him pay for both places as well, they told him it was a stupid thing he did to get a lease and then beg for forgiveness.  He ended up marrying her so he could get out of rations and quarters, and less than a year later, they're divorced.  Can't say that's a rare thing, either.  Scamming the system by declaring false commonlaw, or getting married for the sake of getting a pmq or apartment ends up backfiring more often than not.  I wouldn't be risking it.  Good lord, have some integrity.

Suck it up, deal with the way things are, and they'll get better later.  I dealt with two years of shacks before I ended up being able to afford to share a pmq.  Things are great now, and yes, paying almost $700 a month in r&q sucks, but it's all part of it.  Cheers.


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## belka (6 Mar 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You are amazing.  What is CFSATE, no the CF, going to do?  They may just tell him that he is not entitled to any reimbursement of any fees involved in the purchase or resale of the house.  Everything is out of his pocket, with no compensation.  That is what they can do, depending on the circumstances.  Your putting ideas like this, right or wrong, in peoples minds could be costly for some.  Did you know how much this person had in their bank account?  Was he fairly well off/wealthy and could afford such an investment with no financial concerns?  This is an extreme and exceptional case and one that is not wise to be boasting about, as many will not be as well off as this guy appears to have been, and in turn become Administrative Burdens on the CF and face Release.
> 
> Shake your head......



He was well aware of the entitlements and followed whatever rules there were for single persons living off base. CFSATE didn't care as long as he was on time for inspections and class. He graduated just like everyone else did on his course. Not everyone has the means to buy a house these days, especially a new private or corporal on their 3's. However, if I had the money I would certainly buy something in Barrie and do the commute every morning. It sure beats the shacks and $400+/month mess dues. More likely than not, CFSATE would tell you either no or let you know your limitations and rules. It is certainly a big risk though.


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## jacob_ns (6 Mar 2009)

Regarding R&Q I was under the impression from information here and from my recruiter that if I have dependents back home or if I have a commonlaw girlfriend back home that I do not have to pay for R&Q. Is this correct?

I currently own a home with a join mortgage with my commonlaw girlfriend of 9 years. She would be staying here while I was at BMQ and Borden.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Mar 2009)

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> Well, having spent two years at CFSATE, I can tell you that we had a guy on course who was from Barrie, had an apartment there, and they didn't give a crap.  He had to pay rations and quarters just like the rest of us, and he also paid for his apartment.  He still had to show up to his barracks room every friday morning for room inspections as well.



You think that is a good way to treat people?  I have no problems with the Room Inspections stuff by any means, but if the Mbr is legitimately living out of shacks, with a lease and rent to pay, etc, you really think its ok for the CF to force him to pay for R & Q?  The CF should NOT be forcing people to pay for their infrastructure and Food Services if they have no requirement to use them.  I think policies like this rate up there with the "thou shall not wear LPO boots" stuff going on at SQFT.  It screws the Mbr and I am not ok with that unless there is a LEGIMATE military necessity.



> Suck it up, deal with the way things are, and they'll get better later.  I dealt with two years of shacks before I ended up being able to afford to share a pmq.  Things are great now, and yes, paying almost $700 a month in r&q sucks, but it's all part of it.  Cheers.



And you've just joined the ranks of the "you have to do it because I had to do it" club.  Sure, you had to do it...I remember you posting about having to do it, and not being happy about it.

Ever hear the saying "you are part of the problem, or part of the solution"?  The "because I had to" reasoning, IMO, is 'part of the problem'.

The Mbr should have requested to vacate quarters properly, however, one of the other common things I see on here, and in the CF, is for anyone with TI to shite all over new Privates and OCdts for not knowing the CF Admin systems.  That too, is probably something they learned and do it 'because thats what happened to them'.

Bottom line, the CF should NOT be forcing Pte's to pay for their rent, and for R & Q as well.  Full stop.  No wonder people get bitter.  Let me ask you this, if this person was told that at the CFRC, would they have signed the line?  How well of a 'recruiter' would this person be to their familiy, friends, etc that they talk to?  What image does that give certain people of 'how the military treats its people'?


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## George Wallace (6 Mar 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You think that is a good way to treat people?  I have no problems with the Room Inspections stuff by any means, but if the Mbr is legitimately living out of shacks, with a lease and rent to pay, etc, you really think its ok for the CF to force him to pay for R & Q?  The CF should NOT be forcing people to pay for their infrastructure and Food Services if they have no requirement to use them.  I think policies like this rate up there with the "thou shall not wear LPO boots" stuff going on at SQFT.  It screws the Mbr and I am not ok with that unless there is a LEGIMATE military necessity.



Sorry, but I disagree with the above little rant.  The CF is a military and as such has something called "discipline".  It has Rules and Regulations that enforce that discipline.  Members do not make up their own rules, they follow those set out by the CF.  I will not comment on SQFT, as that is covered in other topics.

This is more like it:


			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The Mbr should have requested to vacate quarters properly,




This is crap, and something you are just as guilty of:


			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> however, one of the other common things I see on here, and in the CF, is for anyone with TI to shite all over new Privates and OCdts for not knowing the CF Admin systems.  That too, is probably something they learned and do it 'because thats what happened to them'.






			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Bottom line, the CF should NOT be forcing Pte's to pay for their rent, and for R & Q as well.  Full stop.  No wonder people get bitter.  Let me ask you this, if this person was told that at the CFRC, would they have signed the line?  How well of a 'recruiter' would this person be to their familiy, friends, etc that they talk to?  What image does that give certain people of 'how the military treats its people'?



As stated above, this is a MILITARY and it has RULES and REGULATIONS to enforce discipline.  It is not a place for those who have a sense of entitlement and just don't want to fit into the organization.  The person, who wants to move out on the economy MUST do it as per the set out Regulations.  If they don't then they are liable.  The CF is not your new parents, and are not responsible for your breaking the rules at your own whim.  It will be severe in its punishment of offenders.  Ptes are no exception.  They are adults and will be treated as such.  They are responsible for their actions.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Mar 2009)

Please, spare me your lecture on the CF and discipline.  With 20 years in coming this summer, I am well aware of what the CF is all about.  

IF the Mbr had the lease before BMQ (assumingly so as he/she is from Barrie), and if the Mbr is required to 'live-in' for MOC trg, the member should NOT have to pay for Quarters.  If the Mbr has a spouse or common-law partner living in that residence that is being paid for, they should also not pay for Rations.


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## Kid_X (6 Mar 2009)

Not to get involved in the above argument, but because something was brought up that caught my attention, I have the following question:

As I am currently common-law, and the course is anywhere from 10-13 months(ish), I would love to be moved there with my wife. If there are no PMQ's available for a few months, but I am authorized to move my family, would I be allowed to just rent an apartment in Barrie? Would I need to make a special request to do so, and if so, would I make that to my CO here in Ottawa or once I am sent to Borden on my QL3?

Also, I pulled the following from the ROs at CFSATE regarding Friday morning inspection:
"044/09 - FRIDAY MORNING INSPECTIONS
1. CFSATE has BBs A-148, A-150 and A-247 as the
primary residence for our apprentice students. The
room/uniform inspection will commence at 0700 hrs.
Dress for the inspection is service dress, DEU or other
specified by the SCWO. Those students residing in
PMQs will be formed up and inspected on the first floor
hallway of BB A-150."
So members living in the shacks have to prepare for room inspection, but member's in PMQs only have uniform inspection?


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Mar 2009)

Thats the way I see it, unless the staff are doing PMQ inspections.


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## George Wallace (6 Mar 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Thats the way I see it, unless the staff are doing PMQ inspections.



Why do people keep throwing "Red Herrings" into this discussion?  The Staff do not inspect PMQs.  (ESQs are a different story, as they are Single Quarters, and are they even available?)

Kid_X

Why go through the hassle of moving your family so often.  Worry about that when you get your first Posting.  

To answer you question, one that has been asked and answered several times in this thread; Yes, you would have to make the request to do so.  Moving your family or renting/buying a place on your own initiative will result in everything coming out of your own pocket.  Should the unhappy event be that you fail your courses and are no longer suitable for retention in the CF, then all costs will be out of your pocket, including moving your family again.


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## jacob_ns (6 Mar 2009)

jacob_ns said:
			
		

> Regarding R&Q I was under the impression from information here and from my recruiter that if I have dependents back home or if I have a commonlaw girlfriend back home that I do not have to pay for R&Q while on couse. Is this correct?
> 
> I currently own a home with a join mortgage with my commonlaw girlfriend of 9 years. She would be staying here while I was at BMQ and Borden.



Can anyone answer this?


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## George Wallace (6 Mar 2009)

jacob_ns said:
			
		

> Can anyone answer this?



Let's see....You read, your recruiter verified/said the same thing, and it has been posted several times on this thread alone........NO YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PAY R&Q if you own a house and your common-law spouse is living in it.


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## George Wallace (6 Mar 2009)

Enough of this nonsense of going on in circles asking what has already been answered and then throwing in red herings and asking the same questions over again and more red herings and asking the same questions over again and......!


LOCKED!


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## Sheppard619 (12 Apr 2009)

Hey there,


I'm currently a recruit on my 10th week at CFLRS and am soon graduating and heading off to borden for my course training.

I am going in as an AVNTECH but I have came across a few posts on this board about the the course being shortened and therefore not being recognized as credentials in the civilian world?

Can anybody explain this to me better and possibly back it up with some sort of reference because so far everything I've seen is just hearsay on this board.

Thanks, 
Pte Sheppard


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## Scoobs (20 Apr 2009)

Pte Sheppard,

first recommendation is not to use your real name on this site.  This helps to protect your identity in case you wish to express your opinion on certain matters. 

Second is that why are you worried about your civy credentials when you are not even done your recruit trg yet?  Finish your recruit trg and then worry about finishing your AVN course at CFSATE.  In case you were wondering, a lot of your mil trg can be used to complete your AME logbook or whatever the thing is called.


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## FltEngr (24 Apr 2009)

Have a look at that link from Transport Canada:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/maintenance/aarpb/General/CMP.htm

Hope it helped!


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## pokio (17 May 2011)

As AVS, there is 2 part of the trade, shop (lab) or on the lines. I would think that the line is more demandiing, having done both. As for ''Box changers'' , we do have some of them, but they don't last long with me. Been woking on Tracer, Buff, Labrador, Herc, griffon and now on the 18.

 If you want a challenge, do wriring snag and let me know, alway looking for good workers !!

Pokio


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## Sparkplugs (19 Aug 2011)

Someone I know is potentially being posted to ATESS in Trenton, and is curious about what AVN techs do there.  I know of lots of ACS, NDT, ATIS and some AVS techs there, but I've never spoken to an AVN who works/has worked there.  Any info?  Thanks a bunch, guys.


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## krustyrl (19 Aug 2011)

Yes, I have, a lot of projects for pretty much all branches of the service, and some 3rd Line Contract stuff.  I was in the ALSE area of ATESS. Where is your friend posted to at ATESS, does he/she know.?  Not a bad go, if you ask me.


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## Sparkplugs (20 Aug 2011)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> Yes, I have, a lot of projects for pretty much all branches of the service, and some 3rd Line Contract stuff.  I was in the ALSE area of ATESS. Where is your friend posted to at ATESS, does he/she know.?  Not a bad go, if you ask me.



I'm not positive, but oil testing was one of the things mentioned.  It's a good thing in terms of being home every evening, but bad in another = missing out on tours/TDs and such.


----------



## krustyrl (20 Aug 2011)

I know some have done tours (ie: Camp Mirage) and depending what your employment is, there could be a fair amount of TD.


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## Sparkplugs (22 Aug 2011)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> I know some have done tours (ie: Camp Mirage) and depending what your employment is, there could be a fair amount of TD.



Thanks for the info.


----------



## nickanick (25 Oct 2011)

General question about AVN tech. Do AVN techs travel often?


----------



## Sparkplugs (25 Oct 2011)

nickanick said:
			
		

> General question about AVN tech. Do AVN techs travel often?



General answer: It depends.  

Depends where you're posted, what you're working on, all kinds of things.  My first two years in Trenton I was in Cold Lake once, Greenland twice, Afghanistan twice, and Arkansas once.  On the way to and from Afghanistan, we got to stop in Germany, Spain and Dubai.  Now I'm taking a year of maternity leave off.  A friend of mine, however, has been in Trenton for 3 years and has only been to Georgia once, for three weeks.  Some guys I know who work with F-18s in Cold Lake have been lots of places, but some, not at all.  A lot of it depends on how hard you work, how willing you are to take 'crappy' temporary deployments, and some of it comes down to luck -- Example of that is me being the first person at work one day, resulted in the Arkansas trip.  Each base/unit/section could result in different trips, and some places have no trips at all.  As a general rule, I'd count myself as having to be away at least 2 or 3 times a year -- that's just what I've seen from my experience.  Some places could be a lot more, some a lot less.  If you need any info about a specific base/job/etc, feel free to PM me, and I'll give you any information I can.  I'm in Trenton, but I've got a number of people I know at different bases, so I can usually find an answer if I need one.  Cheers!


----------



## aesop081 (25 Oct 2011)

nickanick said:
			
		

> General question about AVN tech. Do AVN techs travel often?



You have asked this question many times, about many trades. The answer is always the same : It depends.

Every time someone has answered your question, the same factors have come up. It depends where you are posted, in what position, what the unit is doing at the time, what qualifications you have at the time, whats going on in the world at the time, etc, etc...

I would almost think you can see the picture that is forming.........


----------



## USERNAME (10 Nov 2011)

Greetings

I'm currently working my way through the SVOTP program towards the AVN trade. I am badly in need of information in regards to course start dates. I've tried to get this information through the rumour mill at work, google searches, searches on this site and through sheer desperation, in a moment of weakness, I even consulted my chain of command. All with mediocre results. If anyone can help me please feel free to email or PM me any speculations, divination or even actual information if you have any.  

Cheers :remembrance:


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## aesop081 (10 Nov 2011)

Looks like there is an AVN QL3 starting 03 Jan 2012 until 19 Sep 2012 at CFSATE


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## USERNAME (10 Nov 2011)

Yes!! I have heard of this one. My flakey sources tell me they haven't hit the minimum number of pers yet so it might be pushed to the right. I understand there is a "tool" course that goes down before that. I'm under the impression that starts in the first week of December. If my paperwork makes it through in time for me to get on that course i will buy a lottery ticket. Is there any possible way you can find out when the course after that might start. I understand that this being an SVOTP trade the answer to my question is most likely "when there is enough people" but any bit of info in regards to how frequently courses run or anything is a big help. The reason i need this information is because _if_ its going to a substantial period of time until I head out to Borden then i will be moving to a bigger PMQ (in December in the cold, not excited) if the course is sooner than later then i can hold out where I am and just do the one move out to Borden. Thanks very much.


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## aesop081 (10 Nov 2011)

USERNAME said:
			
		

> Is there any possible way you can find out when the course after that might start.



The schedule did not go beyond this course yet.


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## USERNAME (10 Nov 2011)

Fair enough, Thanks very much.


----------



## optimuspaul (2 Dec 2011)

There has been some talk about getting incentives to join as avn tech cpl's before pte3 ect. I am one who recieved a signing bonus in the form of "1 years advancment to rank and promotion". Before i go further I had prior training relavant to AVN tech, Aircraft maintenace engineer diploma from stevenson aviation, and some job experience. To be a cpl with no prior job related training or experience you MUST complete 3 years as a pte, then you will be eligable for advance promotion to Cpl, up to one year i belive but may be 1.5...which is back payable since it may take some time to complete paper work, all units have a max no. of adv promo they are allowed a year for each trade...and you gotta be impressive. I finished my bmq then was given the rank 2Pte which is really just a pay scale not a seperate rank, i finished borden and got TPte which is trained pte or 3Pte, then i went on my QL'5 and Cpl soon after which is the requirement for spec pay (QL'5 + Cpl...and that QL5 must be on your current Airframe) if you recive spec pay without or Know someone who is getting payed spec without their current QL5 if they dont sort it out the airforce will figure out one day and come back for that money which could be upwards of 10'000$ (happened to a buddy of mine...so did the oppisite which sucks too cause thats alot of taxes for one season).  Sum it all up the dude who was told he would get an incentive was told that because he mistakenly asked about semi/skilled incentives for AVN techs.

This job is highly rewarding, you may take s@#$ from army guys about joining the airforce, but heres a little secret....the amount of remusters filed from combat arms trades to 500 series trades is staggering...with that comment i am not saying in anyway that i dont have enormous respect for combat arms, just saing its a high sought trade and if you get accepted try your hardest. Ive seen some pretty incompotent pte come out of borden in the past few years. Most of the infantry remusters ended up being good techs...borden puts out some substandard techs...with a few hidden gems (my civvy training made borden look like an online budget diploma, QL5 and ground run up for the herc was stellar tho, quality education....didnt help my spelling or grammar tho).

PS you can get you Aircraft maintenace engineer log book completed thru the military now...at least on the flying dump truck we like to call the Hercules!

hope this helps someone
Cpl Bloggins
propulsion and air to air systems tech
435 sqn, 17 wing, Winnipeg


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## Sparkplugs (2 Dec 2011)

optimuspaul said:
			
		

> There has been some talk about getting incentives to join as avn tech cpl's before pte3 ect. I am one who recieved a signing bonus in the form of "1 years advancment to rank and promotion". Before i go further I had prior training relavant to AVN tech, Aircraft maintenace engineer diploma from stevenson aviation, and some job experience. To be a cpl with no prior job related training or experience you MUST complete 3 years as a pte, then you will be eligable for advance promotion to Cpl, up to one year i belive but may be 1.5...which is back payable since it may take some time to complete paper work, all units have a max no. of adv promo they are allowed a year for each trade...and you gotta be impressive. I finished my bmq then was given the rank 2Pte which is really just a pay scale not a seperate rank, i finished borden and got TPte which is trained pte or 3Pte, then i went on my QL'5 and Cpl soon after which is the requirement for spec pay (QL'5 + Cpl...and that QL5 must be on your current Airframe) if you recive spec pay without or Know someone who is getting payed spec without their current QL5 if they dont sort it out the airforce will figure out one day and come back for that money which could be upwards of 10'000$ (happened to a buddy of mine...so did the oppisite which sucks too cause thats alot of taxes for one season).  Sum it all up the dude who was told he would get an incentive was told that because he mistakenly asked about semi/skilled incentives for AVN techs.
> 
> This job is highly rewarding, you may take s@#$ from army guys about joining the airforce, but heres a little secret....the amount of remusters filed from combat arms trades to 500 series trades is staggering...with that comment i am not saying in anyway that i dont have enormous respect for combat arms, just saing its a high sought trade and if you get accepted try your hardest. Ive seen some pretty incompotent pte come out of borden in the past few years. Most of the infantry remusters ended up being good techs...borden puts out some substandard techs...with a few hidden gems (my civvy training made borden look like an online budget diploma, QL5 and ground run up for the herc was stellar tho, quality education....didnt help my spelling or grammar tho).
> 
> ...



Sorry to burst your bubble, but you don't really have to be 'impressive' to get a year's worth of advanced promotion.  In one day, 6 people on a 40 person crew got it, and then a few more got it later that month.  If you are friends with the right Cpl/Mcpl, you can even write yourself up, and they can submit it for you -- we saw this done as well.  Makes those of us that actually work really hard feel like a pile of arse, I'll tell you that much.  

And don't bash Borden too much -- I had civvie training too, and for some of the stuff, it was better, but for other things, Borden was better.  They do what they can with what they have, and I don't feel that I missed out on anything -- you learn much more once you actually get on your airframe.

You could always get your AME logbook filled -- on the herc, the griffon and the chinook, eventually -- as long as you can find someone with civilian quals to sign you off.  You have to have a licensed AME to sign your book, military quals don't cut it.

It's not just Borden that puts out substandard techs, dude -- I've seen some real winners come from civvie school too.  Trust me on that one.  And your 5's may not have helped you with your spelling and grammar, but it's something you may want to work on -- someday you may be a Mcpl, and you'll have to do paperwork.  Hell, as a Cpl you should be doing paperwork, and if I got 349's with this kind of spelling and grammar I'd ship them right back to you to fix.

**edited to clarify.


----------



## smale436 (2 Dec 2011)

Wow, my eyes hurt after reading that.

A few things more than a little wrong here.

"Spec pay requires Cpl plus QL5 on current airframe." 

- Unless I misunderstood you, the fact is we have many people from other fleets get posted to a new fleet and sometimes due to going on a PLQ or course backlogs, wait quite awhile for their "current airframe QL5". I'm sure I would recall people mentioning they are no longer getting spec pay between "leaving the fleet they were QL5 qual'd on and finishing the QL5 on their new fleet." And I do not recall that.

"I finished my bmq then was given the rank 2Pte which is really just a pay scale not a seperate rank."

 - When you finish BMQ your new rank is Pte(B) (Basic) as opposed to Pte(R) Recruit and that jump to the next pay incentive occurs after ONE year of service. 

"i finished borden and got TPte which is trained pte or 3Pte"

 - Normally when people finish Borden (QL3) they are still Pte(Basic) and recieve the rank of Pte (T) and their first hook after 30 months of service. Co-workers who had time/promotion credits from civy college still often left Borden as a Pte. Most that I know got their Cpl after a few months at the squadron and after their QL5 course.

 - As far as being impressive to receive an advance promotion, I have seen recipients who just happened to be in the "right place at the right time", people who only did it for the money then eventually slacked down, some who genuinely deserved it, and a lot of people who deserved it but didn't get because some of the old-school guys either didn't like doing paperwork or figure "hey I never got it so I'm not going to give it out". 

"PS you can get you Aircraft maintenace engineer log book completed thru the military now"

 - I can't confirm or deny that statement on the Hercules but I know many A level guys on CF-18s with 20+ years experience have found out that their CF-18 time can either count for very little or nothing when it comes to AME. I'm not sure of the intimate details but there have been a few people who went to L3 or Top Aces reluctantly as the AME route didn't pan out at all the way they thought it would.

    ** I'm not trying to be a nit-pick or knob about clarifying some info. But I know I came on this site a lot before I joined the CF and found the info amazing. Therefore in case anyone not in the CF yet is reading this thread I thought it would be good to clear up some of the incorrect information.


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## SKS-NAS (8 Dec 2011)

Hi,

Hoping someone could help me out with some questions about joining.

Currently I'm an AME-M, with an ACA, working under an AMO with a Dash-8 100/300 endorsement course. 5 yrs experience. 

after BMQ training, aircraft training, etc. What rank could I start at? 

Any chance of salary match of $60K? 

Odds of being based in 14 Wing?

What's the avg wait from applying to serving as a member?

Cheers, thanks
jp


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## aesop081 (8 Dec 2011)

SKS-NAS said:
			
		

> etc. What rank could I start at?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SKS-NAS (8 Dec 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> As good as they are of you being sent elsewhere.



Thanks for the heads up. Operational Req's determine base selection, understood  I'm going to have to ask the wife if she's willing to move alot over the next 25 years.

How do a/c type course's work in the RCAF? Could I probably stay fixed wing, since all my exp is that?


----------



## aesop081 (8 Dec 2011)

SKS-NAS said:
			
		

> Could I probably stay fixed wing, since all my exp is that?



The CF will send you wherever it wants. You may not even stay on only one type during a career. You could start FW and after a while be posted to RW....and back again......*What you did on civvy street is immaterial*.


----------



## Sparkplugs (9 Dec 2011)

SKS-NAS said:
			
		

> Thanks for the heads up. Operational Req's determine base selection, understood  I'm going to have to ask the wife if she's willing to move alot over the next 25 years.
> 
> How do a/c type course's work in the RCAF? Could I probably stay fixed wing, since all my exp is that?



I was civvie qualified on the 205-series helicopters, and as soon as I was done my time in Borden, I was posted on the C130.  So even if you're qualified on that_ actual airframe_, doesn't mean they'll put you on it.  It's a crapshoot, really.


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## ottawaguy25 (18 Jan 2012)

I am a Cpl in the army and I'm very seriously looking to OT to AVN. I want to ask a couple questions if possible.

1. Are you only qualified on one aircraft or are there possibilities of more?

2. How does QL5 work is it just specialization of a certain aircraft or what exactly is it?

3. How do you feel about the trade? Pros and cons if u have time

4. A regular day once qualified and in your place of work? Like work environment and work load?

5. How close to the other Techs (AVS, ATIS, ACS) do you work?

That's all i have for now thanks a lot

I am using my buddies account because I don't have one.  Just an FYI


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## aesop081 (18 Jan 2012)

I'm not a tech but i work closely with them and this will hold you over untl one chimes up.....



			
				ottawaguy25 said:
			
		

> 1. Are you only qualified on one aircraft or are there possibilities of more?



Typicly qualified on one aircraft. For example, if you are a tech at an Aurora sqn, you are qualified to work on the Aurora. If you then get posted to an F-18 sqn, you are qualified on the F-18 and no longer on the Aurora.
An Aurora tech in Comox is not qualified on the Buff.



> 5. How close to the other Techs (AVS, ATIS, ACS) do you work?



You will work closely with the other tech trades but little to none with ATIS techs.


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## CplWheeler (18 Jan 2012)

Thanks CDN Aviator

but you lose the qualification when ur not at the unit? or do you just not use it anymore? and what if you get posted back into an aurora unit?

FYI this post is actually mine but a buddy was logged on my computer


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## aesop081 (18 Jan 2012)

CplWheeler said:
			
		

> but you lose the qualification when ur not at the unit?



From what i have seen, yes. If you return to a previous platform, there is a process to regain quals. Again, this is just from my observations over the years. I am not a tech.


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## cp140tech (19 Jan 2012)

ottawaguy25 said:
			
		

> I am a Cpl in the army and I'm very seriously looking to OT to AVN. I want to ask a couple questions if possible.
> 
> 1. Are you only qualified on one aircraft or are there possibilities of more?
> 
> ...


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## greydak (30 Jan 2012)

Heres some more info on the AVN course: http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/itp-pfi/page-eng.asp?id=942


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## Duke878 (6 Feb 2012)

PFL, its been about 3+years since this was originally posted. Care to share your experiences.


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## Dovely74 (26 Mar 2012)

Since the question was asked a while back and that the schedule did not provide any other dates at that time, I wonder if a new schedule has been determined since then? And if so, if someone would be kind enough to post it here?

Thank you in advance.


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## aesop081 (26 Mar 2012)

Serial 1201    12 April - 14 Dec 12
Serial 1202    18 May 12 - 12 Feb 13
Serial 1203    03 July 12 - 05 Apr 13
Serial 1204F  29 Aug 12 - 29 May 13
Serial 1205    15 Oct 12 - 03 Jul 13
Serial 1206    27 Nov 12 - 28 Aug 13
Serial 1207F  24 jan 13 - 23 oct 13

Good luck guessing which one he'll be on, if any.


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## Dovely74 (26 Mar 2012)

Thank you CDN Aviator. Even if we don't know which course he could potentially be on. At least we see that there will be more than just the one session. He'll be starting his common core March 30th and we were wondering if there would be any courses starting soon after or later.


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## USERNAME (27 Mar 2012)

i was under the impression AVN was 54 weeks, is this not the case?


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## Jako155 (28 Apr 2012)

Hey everyone, I'm considering joining the Air Force as an Aviation Systems Tech (AVN Tech) but I have a few concerning questions that I'd really like answered, especially if you have any knowledge about the trade. 

1.	How much say do you have towards what you would be working on and where you are posted?
2.	How are the tours as an AVS Tech? How long are they and how often are you sent?
3.	When at your home base do you work a normal 9-5 type job or shift work?
4.	Are there any air force bases that are right near a large town such as CFB Edmonton?

Any information would be great and appreciated. Thanks.


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## aesop081 (28 Apr 2012)

Jako155 said:
			
		

> Hey everyone, I'm considering joining the Air Force as an Aviation Systems Tech (AVS Tech)



AVS Tech is *not* "Aviation Systems Tech". It is "Avionics Systems Tech".

"Aviation Systems Tech" is an AVN Tech.



> 1.	How much say do you have towards what you would be working on and where you are posted?



Between "none" and "very little".



> 2.	How are the tours as an AVS Tech? How long are they and how often are you sent?



Entirely dependant on where you work, what you actually do and the situation at the time. Too many variables to answer that one.



> 3.	When at your home base do you work a normal 9-5 type job or shift work?



Shift work for the most part, based on working along side techs for many years. Different units work different ways and, of course, as you progress, your employment differs and so do the working conditions.



> 4.	Are there any air force bases that are right near a large town such as CFB Edmonton?



There is a helicopter squadron at CFB Edmonton. You can search the RCAF website and it will show you were everyone is based.

Edit : AVN/AVS Tech (whichever one you actually mean) is not an "aircrew trade".


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## Jako155 (28 Apr 2012)

Thanks for your honest answers Aviator. I’ve changed the acronym and I’ll try to figure out how to move the topic. Yeah, I’m aware that the tours really depend on what you’re working on. I just wanted a general idea for the air force entirely.


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## aesop081 (28 Apr 2012)

Jako155 said:
			
		

> I just wanted a general idea for the air force entirely.



There is not "general idea" for the RCAF entirely. Tactical Helicopter units will deploy doing things one way (due to the nature of supporting the Army), while long range patrol units will deploy and do things another way to suit who they are working for. It follows that other fleets do business to suit their unique needs.


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## cp140tech (28 Apr 2012)

There is a bit of info on the site if you feel like digging through some of the existing threads.  You will find that work schedules  vary greatly depending on where you're at.  People working in first line jobs are subject to the flying program and will frequently work any manner of odd shifts.  Techs in second line maintenance, shops, teaching positions and most of the office jobs are generally working a straight day gig....  0700-1500 etc.  

Feel free to fire me a pm if you have specific questions.


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## Jako155 (1 May 2012)

Another quick question: Do you know of AVN Techs doing PT? I heard they may have one PT morning every two weeks or something. Plus is it really that hard to find time for yourself to work out during shift days?


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## aesop081 (1 May 2012)

Jako155 said:
			
		

> Do you know of AVN Techs doing PT?



Yes.



> Plus is it really that hard to find time for yourself to work out during shift days?



No.


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## cp140tech (2 May 2012)

PT depends again on where you work.  If you're in a shop/office or second line job, it's usually not tough to get away a couple times/week to train.  First line work is always at the mercy of the flying program.  423 Sqn is the first place I've been employed where the flypro has been adjusted to allow techs to have time for PT.  We have two maintenance crews with alternating day/evening shifts....  The day crew gets 90 min for PT first thing in the morning on Mon and Fri of the day shift.  Any other PT has to compete with flying/maintenance activities for time.  Some days I can get training in during work time, but sometimes there's just no way.


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## moose34 (31 Mar 2013)

Does anyone know what percentile avn tech and flight engineer fall under?


Thanks


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## JorgSlice (31 Mar 2013)

42nd.

Percentile for what?


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## moose34 (31 Mar 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> 42nd.
> 
> Percentile for what?



For the cfat, looking to see if I would qualify for avn and then in the long run, for flight engineer.


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## agc (1 Apr 2013)

moose34 said:
			
		

> For the cfat, looking to see if I would qualify for avn and then in the long run, for flight engineer.



If that's the job you want to do, apply for that job, and see what happens.


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## JorgSlice (1 Apr 2013)

.


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## winnipegoo7 (1 Apr 2013)

moose34 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know what percentile avn tech and flight engineer fall under?
> 
> 
> Thanks



You want to talk with a PSO (Personnel Selection Officer.) Ask your chain of command which one you should see, as there will probably be one on the base in Kingston and one at the recruiting centre (I don't know which one a reservist should see.)  The PSO will tell you if you meet the CFAT standard for the trades (if you don't you can probably get a re-test) I know some PSO will give you your CFAT scores, but most won't. 

Alternatively if you have access to EMAA, click on the careers section, a new window will pop up. Go to the occupation specifications page and on the left side of the screen one of the links will be to a word document that tells you all of the percentiles. (if you go to the PSO he will do this part for you)

Also, flight engineer is usually remuster only from specific airforce trades.


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Apr 2013)

moose34 said:
			
		

> For the cfat, looking to see if I would qualify for avn and then in the long run, for flight engineer.



Seems like the OP knows that.

FE used to be OT-in from AVN only but didn't they just open up to AVS as well recently?


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## moose34 (1 Apr 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Seems like the OP knows that.
> 
> FE used to be OT-in from AVN only but didn't they just open up to AVS as well recently?



Yes they have.


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## walkhard (20 Nov 2013)

Hey all, coming from army to air force, looking for a currently serving avn tech I can message for questions! Thanks!


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## Quirky (20 Nov 2013)

PM me if you have any questions.


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## cp140tech (22 Nov 2013)

Happy to answer your questions as well.


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## Jayrickson (26 Nov 2013)

I had a few questions that I can't seem to find the answers to, although I'll probably be put to shame by a "Search guru"

Short and sweet!
1. Do Avionics Techs ever see "the field"?
2. Despite not being Air Crew, do you/will I get the chance to be *in* aircraft often?
3. Will I ever have the opportunity to complete SQ? (I can't find whether Air Force has this option, Navy has their own methods of it) 

Thanks.


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## Sparkplugs (27 Nov 2013)

One more happy to answer. I'm an AVN from enrollment, but my husband came from the green side, so I can definitely get some info on that side as well.


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## Sparkplugs (9 Dec 2013)

1. Your post title says AVN tech, and then your post is asking about an avionics tech -- which one are you looking for? An AVN is an aviation systems tech, and avionics is an AVS tech. Either way, your answer is yes, and no. Lots of us have deployed, and lots have not. If you're talking about "the field," a la Army field, sleeping in tents, etc, not that often. I imagine some of the guys in Petawawa do, but it's not that many people. The idea that air force guys stay in a lot of hotels is not far off. We do more short TDs... a week here, a week there, a mobile repair crew to here, stuff like that is way more common. F18 guys have lots of TDs, many bases do, actually.

2. Seeing as AVS and AVN are both trades that repair aircraft for a living (unless you're in a lab or some other off-aircraft shop,) you will be *in* aircraft often. I'm in them, on them, under them, every single day. Some bases, you get to fly in them more than others, but in general, you'll be in planes often.

3. You can never say never, but generally, no, you won't do SQ.

This might be a better post for the Maintainer's Bench -- where the airplane mechanic stuff goes -- instead of support trades.   Feel free to PM me if you want.


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## Alexander33 (14 Jan 2014)

Just got the word: I'm going to be trained as an AVN Tech, the position I wanted. I'm to be doing my BMQ starting on February 3rd, 2014.

Life is good! Can't wait to get started with my courses!

A.


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## Colta (14 Jan 2014)

Alexander33 said:
			
		

> Just got the word: I'm going to be trained as an AVN Tech, the position I wanted. I'm to be doing my BMQ starting on February 3rd, 2014.
> 
> Life is good! Can't wait to get started with my courses!
> 
> A.



Congrats! I'm going Feb 3rd too for AVS!


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## Alexander33 (14 Jan 2014)

Congrats to you too!


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## cp140tech (14 Jan 2014)

Welcome to the blue side.


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## Jayrickson (8 Feb 2014)

1. I had the AVN/AVS mixup with the CFRC.. My fault for not paying enough attention. All these acronyms.. It's like talking to a 14 year old girl. 
Definitely Avionics. 

2. Exciting!

3. Alright, I thought I may be able to sneak in one if I am ever on PAT, since it is not that long anyway.


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## bhmve (3 Mar 2014)

Great info on the trade guys. Something else I would like to know are the hours for an AVN Tech. I am working for Air Canada Jazz right now and there are lots of night shifts. Would be nice to not have to work nights. 
I would just like to know what an average day is like in the hanger. Thanks guys.


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## Sparkplugs (3 Mar 2014)

bhmve said:
			
		

> Great info on the trade guys. Something else I would like to know are the hours for an AVN Tech. I am working for Air Canada Jazz right now and there are lots of night shifts. Would be nice to not have to work nights.
> I would just like to know what an average day is like in the hanger. Thanks guys.



Big answer? It depends. Just here in Trenton, if you work at 424 (SAR Sqn,) you'll generally be 7:00am - 3:00pm one week Mon - Fri, then 3:00pm - 11:00pm the next. There are also times you'll have to be on duty crew, where you're on call all weekend and 11:00pm to 7:00am every week night. You might also be in an office job, where you're 7:30am to 3:30pm, although those are less common. You might be at 8AMS in Trenton, where you'd work 7:00am - 3:00pm Mon-Fri, sometimes being on call as well. You might end up at 436, which works 7 days a week, 12 hour shifts, 4 days on, 4 days off, alternating days and nights. There's also 429 Sqn, I don't even know their schedule, but they have a ton of trips away, and they definitely have people on almost, if not right around the clock. And that's just Trenton. After Borden, it's completely hit or miss, but you can definitely count on shiftwork happening at some point in your career. Usually at the start, but it can happen any time at all. A friend of mine used to work for Jazz, and now he works for 436, on 12-hour shiftwork. He makes a buttload more than he did at Jazz, and likes this job much better, but that's a personal thing.

Short answer? Count on shiftwork, and on the off-chance you end up with straight days right from the get-go (not bloody likely, but could happen,) consider it a bonus. 

As far as an average day in the hangar, I can only speak to where I work, at 424 squadron. We're Search and Rescue, so some days there's a lot of waiting to do. It's 90% servicing, outside of the waiting part. We part, we start, we do A and B-checks (post and pre-flight.) We fuel, we configure the cargo compartment, we go to mess dinners. Then the planes break. Usually it's all of them at once, and then we scramble like maintaining maniacs to get them serviceable again. When you're SAR, you work through the night to get stuff done, if that's what needs to happen to have a serviceable Herc.   I've worked at a couple of other places like this, but this is the only one I can vouch for. Some people work in shops, like Tire Bay or Engine Bay, where they work straight days, and go home at 3.  Unless we need them after hours, then someone's getting called in, but that's not that often. Sometimes there are trips. Usually they're Mobile Repair Parties, to places unknown. Could be Sudbury where the plane breaks, could be Iqaluit with four propeller changes to do. (Yes, that happened.) It's all over the place, but it's the best adventure.

If you need any other info, feel free to PM me. I took a big pay cut when I joined, but I've definitely overcome and passed my previous salary, it doesn't take long. Are you an AME?


----------



## bhmve (3 Mar 2014)

Wow. Thanks for the info. Yes I am an ame. I currently work for jazz but my experience is all Helicopters. I am merrit listed and was told I would be offered a job this month (most likely). I am actually hoping for Trenton or Petawawa so we will see what happens. As for money, well ta Jazz is terrible. I took a big pay cut working here but it's only in the meantime until the CF calls. 

Anyway, I am very excited. I have lots of Bell Medium experience so I hope to work on the Griffin. Fingers crossed!


----------



## Sparkplugs (3 Mar 2014)

bhmve said:
			
		

> Wow. Thanks for the info. Yes I am an ame. I currently work for jazz but my experience is all Helicopters. I am merrit listed and was told I would be offered a job this month (most likely). I am actually hoping for Trenton or Petawawa so we will see what happens. As for money, well ta Jazz is terrible. I took a big pay cut working here but it's only in the meantime until the CF calls.
> 
> Anyway, I am very excited. I have lots of Bell Medium experience so I hope to work on the Griffin. Fingers crossed!



If you're looking for Griffon, it'll likely be Petawawa, Bagotville, Cold Lake, Borden, Edmonton or Valcartier -- Trenton's Griffons are maintained by civilian AMEs. Canadian Helicopters maintains them, and I know our guys here make decent money -- have you looked into that?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (4 Mar 2014)

403 isn't a first tour posting?


----------



## Sparkplugs (4 Mar 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 403 isn't a first tour posting?



I guess I missed that one. Don't think too many people end up there though, not out of Borden, anyway. Caveat -- I left Borden almost seven years ago, so things may have changed, however, our new apprentices maintain that most new people are Cold Lake and Trenton, and scattered from there.


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## StepDad (28 Mar 2014)

My stepson parades from that course next Wed., April 2, 2014 and he received final written confirmation today that he is definitely Trenton. Good thing too, cause his spouse said if it was Cold Lake, he was going by himself! LOL. They've been in PMQ's in Borden since Oct. 2012. He left 2RCR after 2.5 yrs in Gagetown.


----------



## Sparkplugs (25 Apr 2014)

Which unit did he get?


----------



## aequitas (9 May 2014)

Hello all,

I just accepted my VOT to AVN it only took me 8.5 years of playing in the dirt to see the blue light. right now, I'm just gathering info to satisfy my personal curiosity. Can anyone give me a rundown of what it's like serving on a ship with an Air Det? Pros Cons? Which coast is better?

Thanks folks.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (9 May 2014)

Firstly, congratulations on your VOT!

Secondly, you are a loooong way away from going to sea. You cannot really sail without being type qualified and having your POM signed off. The reason for this is that there are not enough bunks avail to carry guys who are only apprentices.  After that, you will be put on the sea list.  The sea list ensures a (reasonably) equal distribution of the sailing opportunities. Expect to be on 423 or 443 Sqn 2 to 3 years before you sail for the first time. 

Life on a ship is what you make it.  I find that if you dive right in and embrace shipboard life, it can be a lot of fun.

If you only hang out with the air dept and make no effort to meet people in other depts and find out what they do, it make for a long sail.


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## aequitas (10 May 2014)

SeaKingTacco, thanks a lot for the answer!

I assumed you would need to be a qual'd tech before going to a ship but its nice to have a real answer. Also nice to know what Sqns will lead to that career path. One other question I have, well one of many to be honest. I almost fear asking b/c i know someone is going to say "the CF puts you where the CF wants you" which i realize I'm not new here just curious about my new trade. is there any leeway in the AVN world to select you one career path. like FW or RW or specific airframe. i have zero expectations of this happening I'm just wondering if it is a possibility. i am so excited to start this journey.

Also I just saw the almost same thread from 2005 thanks for giving me updated info and not just redirecting me.


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## joecrack (11 Aug 2014)

Hello there. I was wondering if there was anybody on this forum who is currently on pat awaiting a course to start for avns in Borden. I graduate on the 21st from BMQ and will have to report on the 22nd to Borden. Any input would be appreciated 

Joe


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## Fiji_Boy_ (15 Aug 2015)

Hi everyone! thank you very much in advance for reading this. I applied on April and the application process has been faster than I thought. I am just waiting for background check to be done soon. 

Initially, I have chosen AVS over AVN because I love Mathematics/Physics and was more interested in the technological side of the aircraft than the mechanical side. But I am still unsure whether I would like the electronics field that AVS deals with, since I haven't tasted what it is like to study one. So, I did thorough research here on army.ca forum over long periods of time about these two careers (have read almost every post about AVN/AVS using the search tool), but was left unsatisfied as to whether AVS would be an enjoyable career to me.

So I have managed to talk to a current AVN Tech in person who is working at Trenton for 5 years. He recommended me AVN over AVS because AVN deals with more broad areas and different aspects of the aircraft system in contrast to AVS who deals with the electronics system which is highly specialized that can get repetitive later on and perhaps get boring. And he also mentioned that it is better to remuster to FE (Flight Engineer) from AVN side than AVS because they know more about the structure of airplanes.

So I would like to request precious opinions and advices from AVN/AVS technicians who have been there already and hope to get some insight about these two trades. Thank you very much once again for reading this and helping me sir/mam in advance


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## observor 69 (15 Aug 2015)

I am a retired AVS tech and can give you a bit of info based on my career. First off going to flight engineer from AVN is the way to go as it is would certainly give you a solid background for FE if that is your goal.
I spent most of my career on fighters, CF-104 and CF-101, these aircraft plus the CF-18 have fighter control radar, computer systems and weapons that are complex and interesting. The aircraft themselves are front line fighters, high performance aircraft. Google can provide lots of info on this subject. Search around this site and you will find discussions by CF-18 techs and pilots.
As your AVN friend said from his experience on transport aircraft AVS looks fairly limited and boring which is somewhat true as the electronic systems are fairly straightforward in their purpose, navigation and communication. Nav and comm is needed on fighters also but the big challenge is the more advanced electronic systems on the aircraft. Read up on the CF-18 and other modern fighters F16, F22 these are the type of systems you will work on. If you love learning, AVS exposes you to a broad number of electronic systems and the computers to integrate them
Both are interesting trades and if you like aircraft as I did they make for a great career.

Good luck!


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## Fiji_Boy_ (15 Aug 2015)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> I am a retired AVS tech and can give you a bit of info based on my career. First off going to flight engineer from AVN is the way to go as it is would certainly give you a solid background for FE if that is your goal.
> I spent most of my career on fighters, CF-104 and CF-101, these aircraft plus the CF-18 have fighter control radar, computer systems and weapons that are complex and interesting. The aircraft themselves are front line fighters, high performance aircraft. Google can provide lots of info on this subject. Search around this site and you will find discussions by CF-18 techs and pilots.
> As your AVN friend said from his experience on transport aircraft AVS looks fairly limited and boring which is somewhat true as the electronic systems are fairly straightforward in their purpose, navigation and communication. Nav and comm is needed on fighters also but the big challenge is the more advanced electronic systems on the aircraft. Read up on the CF-18 and other modern fighters F16, F22 these are the type of systems you will work on. If you love learning, AVS exposes you to a broad number of electronic systems and the computers to integrate them
> Both are interesting trades and if you like aircraft as I did they make for a great career.
> ...



I express my utmost gratitude sir for your prompt and very detailed response!!! I have so much learned about AVS only from your post already sir and it certainly sounds fantastic! I love learning as if it gives meaning to this life and kindles my desire to learn more and benefit others! 

Actually I was really hoping to get an response from you sir because as I searched through forums and realized you were an AVS Tech and I thank you very much for your invaluable post here


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## observor 69 (15 Aug 2015)

Post your questions on this site and they will be available to all to answer.


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## Fiji_Boy_ (15 Aug 2015)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Post your questions on this site and they will be available to all to answer.



Oh ok sir! it was my purpose that others with same concerns and questions of mine would benefit from this discussion. I was just wondering if I would be possible to contact you later on if I am chosen as AVS. Haha understood sir :nod:


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## PuckChaser (16 Aug 2015)

All these Sirs, and yet I think BG actually worked for a living.  >


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## Fiji_Boy_ (16 Aug 2015)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> All these Sirs, and yet I think BG actually worked for a living.  >



Sorry if I was being burdensome for all these 'sirs' haha. I am from Asian culture where we younger ones show reverence and respect to the elders by alwaying calling them sir. Thanks for pointing this out!


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## tibor23 (2 Sep 2015)

Has anyone had the experience of going from being an AME in the civilian world to joining the CAF as an AVN tech?  I work with a few who have done the reverse, AVN to AME, but just looking for some perspective from those who have gone the opposite route.

Cheers


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## Aries (18 Sep 2015)

Good day all,

I've been cruising this forum since I found out I will be getting Medically COT'd. Lots of great information on here.

MY BPSO interview is on the 28th and i'm still torn between AVN and ACS. I've spoken to some dudes I know in either one and they are both appealing and suit my aptitude.

Just a couple points I am unclear on:

1. Which of them are most likely to result in shift work? If so, which postings automatically result in shift work? I'm hoping for either Trenton of 450 in Pet.

2. Which one yields the best equivalencies for civvy street? I only got 7 years left (5 after I'm potentially done QL3) and need to keep an eye on a well thought-out plan B.

3. Career progression? I understand I'm going back to being a Cpl, and I'm am more than ok with that, but which trade offers the most opportunities to diversify the skill set and/or specialize the earliest?

Please bear in mind, by no means do I fully plan on being in either of these trades, as the COT process is subject to quite a lot of variables and timing is key, but I want to get to that interview with a couple of COA's that will seem intelligent and thought-out.


Thanks to any and all responses to this.

Cheers!


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## cld617 (18 Sep 2015)

1. Traditionally it's always been AVN/AVS on servicing crews, but that is slowly changing as ACS have adopted all the safety systems both on and off a/c. Depending on the unit, it may be anywhere from 1 or 2 ACS per crew all the way up to representing 1/3rd of the crew. Our bread and butter is still in the shops, so there is always going to be those spots available.

2. Can't comment on this sorry. 

3. Skill wise, ACS. Within a year or two at your unit you could be sent off on an OSQ and come back the SME in a particular field like machining or welding. Diversity also goes to ACS, in that we are an amalgamation of several trades which in their own right could go back to being their own trades. You're never going to master them all, but putting in a request to be taken out of the running for promotions could have you spend enough time as Cpl to become damned competent at them all.


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## dapaterson (18 Sep 2015)

The PSO should be able to provide information on civilian equivalencies; it's been a while since I worked with PSOs regularly, but they used to have a shop in Ottawa dedicated to matching military and civilian qualifications.


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## Leeworthy (19 Sep 2015)

I don't have direct experience, but have friends who are both AVN and ACS, as well my dad was AVN for 37 years, so I have some insight to the trades

AVN are maintainers. So you will be doing shift work. Planes need to be maintained, parked, started, both A and B Checks need to be completed 24/7 depending on the unit you end up with. Trenton, AVN are on a rotating shift if you are posted to say 8AMS ( 8 Aircraft maintenance Squadron). The majority of them all do shift work. If you are later in your career you could be posted to a squadron like 426 and be a trainer. They are strictly 7-4 type positions.

ACS are also doing shift work, but not as much as the AVN techs do. The majority that I worked with worked in 7-4 type jobs. Working in places like tire bay, refinishing shops (paint, welding etc).

Now, as to which is  better on civi street later in life, it really depends on what you hope to do after you retire from the CF. If you go ACS you could potentially have a welding certificate and other certificates that could be transferable to civi street or have to do a competency test to get.

Since the majority of AVN is repairing aircraft, you don't have much to take with you on civi street unless you want to try and get a PLAR and maybe get yourself a 310a or 310T ticket after you leave.

ACS IMHO would be best as you could do body repair, machining, welding, painting and such and have that specific knowledge to do a lot more then just repairs. Again this is my opinion from what I have seen.

As either you could luck in an be employed back into something like L3, Spar Aerospace and do the same job you did before. Also you could get on with air Canada and work directly for them with either trade as well.

So it all depends on what you want to do when you retire.


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## Aries (21 Sep 2015)

Hey guys,

Fantastic info. I really appreciate the help and will most likely ass all this to my thought process when it comes to requesting one.

Now all I can do is hope that either trade are available and open when I go in for my interview.

Cheers!


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## Aries (9 Oct 2015)

Just found out that only AVN is open right around now. So my choice is made for me. Now it's all a waiting game.

Be prepared for a flood of question posts while I become unhinged at the prospect of being a DP1 student again (j/k)


In all seriousness, you guys who offer good advice and answer questions on this board are stand-up people. Thanks one and all.

If someone could offer their services of being my question go-to person (via PM of course), that would be a bonus!

Cheers!


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## Aries (3 Dec 2015)

Hello everyone. 

I just found out I'm going to be COT'd to AVN Tech. This pleases me greatly. Fortunately I have some friends who've already transitioned to the blue side so I can gather intel on course life and Air Force Life in certain places in Canada.

I checked out the CFSATE DIN site and looked at the joining instructions, but found nothing reference the kit I'm going to require.

If Anyone has some insight for the kit list, please let me know. I know I'm still a LONG ways off of actually going on course from this point in time, But i'd rather plan early and make sure I have my stuff wired tight before I have to scramble for things at the last second.

Cheers!


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## TCM621 (3 Dec 2015)

Aries said:
			
		

> Hello everyone.
> 
> I just found out I'm going to be COT'd to AVN Tech. This pleases me greatly. Fortunately I have some friends who've already transitioned to the blue side so I can gather intel on course life and Air Force Life in certain places in Canada.
> 
> ...


The air force doesn't really do kit lists.  It is going to be a bit of a culture shock to you. You really need uniforms (all of them) and little else. But if you are concerned you can probably find the AVN course director's email on the CFSATE site and ask.


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## Eye In The Sky (3 Dec 2015)

Aries said:
			
		

> the kit I'm going to require.
> Cheers!














 ;D


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## Sarah_H (6 Dec 2015)

Yea, Air Force kit list is basically just your uniform&DEUs. They will issue you a set of coveralls when you get on course and you will have to get steel toe boots from the QM. 

Have "fun" in Borden when you get there. Hopefully PAT platoon has gotten better by then.


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## messupdude (17 Jan 2016)

It's pretty much dependent on experience. If you finished school you'll have a PLAR done on your file at the recruitment center to determine your potential rank and pay grade. For me I finished school and applied for the military and they gave me a P3 promotion. They also shortened up my trade training down to 3 months.


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## Kai (23 Jan 2016)

The absolute hardest part is starting with private pay of course. Theres no negotiating pay like in the civvy world. When I joined I had no idea about this because as an AME I was making 50 to 60K a year. So be fully aware and prepare yourself financially before joining. Its very very tough especially if you have a truck/house/family.

I was an AME. At the time of joining, they weren't offering an incentive but this changes time to time depending on the CF's needs. I do hear stories of the CF handing out loads of cash with people that do have diplomas and many years of experience in civvy. But in my case, all i did was skip the training in Borden (only did common core), because I already had a diploma.I'll give you an time line to give you an idea how it all went for me.

May-Aug 2008 Basic training

Aug 2008 to Aug 2009 (only common core, but you have to wait a long long time for a course, so sit tight and keep you chin up)QL3 is your diploma from college

Aug 2009 got posted to a SQN (here you work with your guys on the aircraft, get to know the ins and outs. and they send you on a type course for your QL5.

once you get your QL5 and 4 years in the forces, you automatically get your Spec pay.


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## Kai (24 Jan 2016)

Oh yea, I forgot, none of the recruiters will tell you this.... after you get your MCPL rank, you will have more of a supervisor roll (most all of airforce trades). This means you don't exactly work with your crew on certain jobs on the aircraft. Which yes, is retarded when you've come from civvy. No matter how good of a tech you are, they will put you in a desk. within 6-7 years. Unless you decide not to be promoted. I see this in very large sqn's. I spend 95% of my time behind a computer now a days.


BE WARNED, if you've been working as an AME tech for 20+ years, and your very skilled with your hands and hate sitting down doing paper work everyday. *DO NOT JOIN.*

In my situation, I'll stick it through, paper work has its positives, cosy room without worry about freezing outside servicing.


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## emily_melnyk (1 Jun 2016)

I'm Ql3 qualified but not sure where to choose for postings. I want to go to  Trenton hoping that being the deployment hub it would offer lots of opportunities for experience and courses. But I also want to work on cormorants...and go east to greenwood or shearwater. Is Gander NFL even an option? Cause I'd go there in a heartbeat.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk


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## rmc_wannabe (1 Jun 2016)

emily_melnyk said:
			
		

> I'm Ql3 qualified but not sure where to choose for postings. I want to go to  Trenton hoping that being the deployment hub it would offer lots of opportunities for experience and courses. But I also want to work on cormorants...and go east to greenwood or shearwater. Is Gander NFL even an option? Cause I'd go there in a heartbeat.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk



Hi 

Not an AVN Tech. Not even in the Air Force. However, I think I can offer some advice.

Talk to your instructors and course staff. See where they have been and what they have done. Ask for their advice. They may have gone to Shearwater and hated life because of XYZ. Or they may know that Trenton doesn't get all the goes people say they do. Or whatever other insider knowledge they have

Cold calling the internet for one of the biggest decisions of your career thus far won't yield the results you're looking for. You have experienced people in trade that you see on a daily basis. I'm sure they won't beast you for asking a sincere question. 

Just my  :2c:


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## emily_melnyk (1 Jun 2016)

Very true ....I plan on talking to everyone I can....but the more opinions/inside scoops the better..but in the end I have no say where I go anyways.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk


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## Loachman (1 Jun 2016)

Ask for whatever you want - don't ask, don't get. That being said, I was under the impression that CH149 maintenance was performed by a civilian contractor. I may be wrong, however, as I have never been part of that community.


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## mariomike (1 Jun 2016)

emily_melnyk said:
			
		

> But I also want to work on cormorants...and go east to greenwood or shearwater. Is Gander NFL even an option?



Saw this from 2007,



			
				Avro_Arrow_1976 said:
			
		

> Chances of going to Gander in AVN are 0. They only have Comorant helicopters and no AVN's work on them, only civilian maintenance, company called IMP.



See also,

Beginning life as an AVN-Tech
http://army.ca/forums/threads/77616.100.html
5 pages.

Aviation Systems Tech (AVN)
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105673.0

Questions about AVN/AVS Tech  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/69678.0
3 pages.

etc...

AVN Tech
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+AVN&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=GU5PV4fAL8GC8Qf4wYPoBQ&gws_rd=ssl


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## krimynal (11 Jul 2016)

Hello everyone , 

I had some questions , more like some unknown stuff that I wanted to check ! 

So I finally got done with all the requirements for all my trades , so I am currently merit listed for AVN / ATIS and ACS Tech ! ( yay me ! ) 

I was wondering , I did a 2 year stint in the Artillery Reserve , and I wanted to know like the main difference between those airforce trades course compared to my SQ + DP1.  

For example : my SQ + DP1 was only 5 weeks total , when the AVN course is like 14-15 months.  Is it the same type of environment ? like inspection every day ? PT every day ? are we housed in some type of barracks ? or do we have like "private rooms" ? is it possible to get internet , since my girlfriend will be in Quebec ( hopefully we will be able to apply for a PMQ ) ? 

Those types of questions .... 

Basically if anyone can fill me in what to expect there.  I did some basic courses ( BMQ . SQ . DP1 ) also did some extended courses ( PC Tech , Recce Tech , Driver ) and I also did some small tasking in Kingston and Valcartier with the artillery .... so I saw a lot of different type of places / environment.  

Thanks 

P.S. I did a search for AVN Techs , Life in Borden , and Course Life .... nothing really came out of those , but if there is already a forum about it , let me know !


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## mariomike (12 Jul 2016)

krimynal said:
			
		

> I did a search for AVN Techs , Life in Borden , and Course Life .... nothing really came out of those , but if there is already a forum about it , let me know !



This is our reading material so far,

AVN
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+AVN&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=6NyEV96WOqmC8Qf687wo&gws_rd=ssl

Borden Thread- Merged  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/35567.50

Living in Borden.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/108980.0

Internet in Borden  
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:12aoYB7XYDcJ:army.ca/forums/index.php%3Ftopic%3D115532.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

See also,

Borden
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+Borden&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=y_KEV-GiGKGC8QeA-oSQCQ&gws_rd=ssl

Congratulations on being Merit listed, by the way.


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## Sarah_H (24 Jul 2016)

AVN QL3 course is not 14-15 months. It's about 6 months plus there is a short 3 months course you do before Called Common Core. IT might actually be less than 3 months now. I believe they've cut out at least a week or two from the course. CFSATE has made a lot of improvements, particularly with getting students on course quicker. It's a lot better than it was a year ago where you'd be sitting on PAT for months. Most AVN techs are getting out of Borden in under a year now. 

Air force life is a bit more relaxed. Currently there is only 1 inspection a week (when you're on course), and it's a dress inspection in your 3B's. While on course your staff MAY do a random room inspection, but it's easy to pass. As long as your room is neat and tidy and your kit is secured you'll pass. When you're on PAT you have the dress inspection and a bedside inspection at the end of the week. But it's easy to pass. They're really just making sure you're cleaning up after yourself and not trashing the place.

There are shacks. If you're not on course, you'll be in a room with 3 other guys. When you get on your #'s, they move you into different shacks where it's only 2 to a room. They offer more privacy and more storage. 

PT is twice a week. When you're on PAT it's everyday. 

You can get internet. Only Rogers though, but part of their "military" deal is there's not fixed contract. So you don't have to sign up for a year or anything. 

You can apply for a PMQ, but it's doubtful you would get one. They don't like to let students get PMQs unless they are married and/or have a family. 

hope this helps  if you have anymore questions feel free to ask.


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

okay I know that on Forces.ca they are talking about "a little over a year" , maybe they changed it since ? 

As far as PMQ goes , I got told that if you have to stay in Borden for more than 12 months total you can ask for a PMQ no guarantees to have it but you can still ask for it. I am also Common-Law with my girlfriend I've been told that this is pretty much like Married in the Canadian Forces eyes. 

but thanks a lot for the info !


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## Sarah_H (25 Jul 2016)

Could be over a year, but like I said, they've made a lot of improvements with increasing the number of courses they run, as well as increasing the number of students on course. It's not nearly as backlogged as it used to be. 

You may be able to get a PMQ if you're common-law, but it will all depend on how long you're going to be in Borden. If it ends up being a long wait between courses, it's possible, but not guaranteed. Also, they wont cover the cost of moving your furniture & effects if you get a PMQ. So just keep that in mind. I'm not 100% sure why this is the case now, as I have known other students who got Q's or moved into apartments in Angus(small town just outside of the base, literally) last year were able to get that taken care of by the military. Could be a cost-saving issue since we're just students and only here for a short time vs members who are posted here for 3+ yrs.


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

I dont mind paying and moving on my own , that is something Ive did time and time again , but I guess Ill know more on the 24th when Ill do my paperwork and all the necessary information


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

stupid question .... 

Is it possible to bring like a FULL Tower PC in the shacks ? Or only a laptop ? 

Because if I cant bring a full tower regular computer , I will have to buy a new laptop ! lol


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## Loachman (25 Jul 2016)

Define "full". Do you mean a regular tower, or the Monolith from 2001 that my older son built to satisfy his gaming addiction? It uses half of the electricity flowing into the block, strains the airconditioning in the house, and can probably run Skynet.


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## krimynal (25 Jul 2016)

lets say a bit of both hahaha ? it is a gaming tower , but not too much , last time I was in shacks it was in Kingston the building behind the admission , and I did bring my computer there , but I was on a tasking not a course , so I don't know if the same rules apply ? the guys that were there on PAT did not have any of there TVs or Computer or anything like that


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## PuckChaser (25 Jul 2016)

Some of the Sigs guys in Kingston have big TVs and gaming towers in the shacks. All depends on course staff though.


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## Journeyman (26 Jul 2016)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Some of the Sigs guys in Kingston have big TVs and gaming towers in the shacks.


But they tend to be offset by the few Jimmies who have lives and social skills.   op:


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## Sarah_H (26 Jul 2016)

krimynal said:
			
		

> Is it possible to bring like a FULL Tower PC in the shacks ? Or only a laptop ?


Yes you can. Lots of guys have full tower PCs plus gaming consoles in their rooms.


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## EpicBeardedMan (13 Jan 2018)

How difficult is it to land at Borden after your QL3's IN Borden for your first unit?


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## AirDet (15 Mar 2018)

EpicBeardedMan said:
			
		

> How difficult is it to land at Borden after your QL3's IN Borden for your first unit?


I would have to say pretty unlikely. Although 400 Sqn is there; it's mostly a retirement home. CMs prefer to send new techs to units that can foster their experience and start building the rounded tech we need.

Trenton is just up the road a few hours. Good luck on your career.


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## Loachman (10 Apr 2018)

AirDet said:
			
		

> Although 400 Sqn is there; it's mostly a retirement home.



I'll disagree with that.

400 Squadron is now 1 Wing's air maintenance squadron, conducting major inspections on 1 Wing Griffons. Dedicated air bases, with more Techs, will see more postings in, of course, but Techs at 400 Squadron will not miss out on experience.


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## Prvt007Joy (22 Nov 2018)

Anyone here with AVN TECH ? 
I applied for this , can anyone share the insight ? 
Thank you


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## Wight.M (19 Jun 2019)

I'm wondering if there's anyone that might be able to give me some insight of the life of a Reg force AVN Tech?

I put in for a CT a couple of months ago and I'm waiting for my interview (which is taking forever), but I thought I would try to get some insight to the career. 

My fiancés concerns are more towards the postings, hours that would be worked and how frequently I might be away from home. We live in southern Ontario and ideally we'd like to go to Trenton. I don't know how likely that is, but would be ideal for us.

Any insight given is very appreciated. Cheers.


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## Trix03 (15 Nov 2019)

Wight.M said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if there's anyone that might be able to give me some insight of the life of a Reg force AVN Tech?
> 
> I put in for a CT a couple of months ago and I'm waiting for my interview (which is taking forever), but I thought I would try to get some insight to the career.
> 
> ...





Its always a bet for postings. You might end up on f18 in coldlake or bagotville. I doupt you will be posted to tac hel unless you want it. As for the units in Petawawa, we go really often outside or exercices. 
Things to consider: 
Lda: 327$ per month even at private rank ( petawawa 450,427; edmonton 408 ; valcartier 430)
Spec pay at cpl rank+ ql5 qualified or journeyman 
Yes you will deploy, yes you will travel and move around.
When you dont want to move anymore and you been lvl A ( not mandatory) you can switch NDT tech spec 2 and you will be
More of a shop technician.
If you love moving around :flight engineer( spec 2, flight pay, LDA, per diem etc ...) 
Mp me for info or any question related to rotary wing + tac hel.


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