# New Combat shirts?????????????



## westie47 (18 Jun 2006)

I saw a documentary on our guys in K-Har awhile back and noticed some guys are wearing combat shirts with pockets on the sleeves. Very similar to the American shirts, but in CADPAT AR. Are these a new version of the combat shirt or some mods the guys are doing?


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## HollywoodHitman (18 Jun 2006)

Dean, 

They're not new. They're modified. They took the inside pockets from the lower cargo pockets and had them sewn on the upper sleeves of each arm. This allows us to put special markings and blood types on the outside (on the velcro strips) and gives us access to things we couldn't get to while wearing the vests and armour.

Cheers,

TM


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## Scoobie Newbie (18 Jun 2006)

Not to mention that the combats don't come like this.  The troops must cut and paste themselves.


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

you're serious?


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## dangerboy (18 Jun 2006)

He is serious, I am going over in Aug and if I wanted it done paid a seamstress money to sew 3 of my shirts. We are not allowed to do one shirt it has to remain "Normal" for the flight over and any parades.


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

:


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## Hot Lips (18 Jun 2006)

See now that's just being adaptive as required...

HL


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

Not the point.  Troops should be given the kit they need, as they need it. IMO.


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## vonGarvin (18 Jun 2006)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> He is serious, I am going over in Aug and if I wanted it done paid a seamstress money to sew 3 of my shirts. We are not allowed to do one shirt it has to remain "Normal" for the flight over and any parades.


That's so wrong (not what you said, but the system that says that our shirts must like like "x" to be on parade).  Hey, we moved the rank insignia to the front because the shoulders were covered, so why not the pockets to the sleeves?  Sure, there is that ONE pocket on the jacket, but come on!  Putting on the armour whilst forgetting to move my smokes left me more that perturbed upon finding them crushed.  Oh, not to mention my other "stuff" in my pockets, like note pads, pens, CEOIs, stuff like that.....



(Yes, I am RCR and advocating a rule change here NOT based on a drill square.  DEUs (And scarlets!) are for drill squares, not CADPAT


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## paracowboy (18 Jun 2006)

nuthin' better than wrestling with your flak vest to try and reach your notepad when discussing crap with a mullah. Tryin' to pull your arm inside the vest, or bend it back on itself, or go in through the neckhole. 

Finally you just start undoing crap, to get to your pocket, and hope the guy isn't gonna pull a Makarov, or someone hasn't got your torso in their sights.

Stupid. Parade square/Peacekeeper mentality. We couldn't even sew the M203 bandolier pouches onto our Tac vests! ONTO them. Not removing anything, just adding. Illegal modification, charge that man!


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

Well, it seems like there is some common sense being used here.  Hence while the green machine will stomp all over it.


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## medicineman (18 Jun 2006)

Remember the motto of the CF - "If it makes sense, don't do it".

MM


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

If I didn't know better, I would think you guys are pulling my legs...you know "ha ha, lets get the militia guy goin"   

But you are serious.  Unbelieveable.

Illegal modification?   :


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## Scoobie Newbie (18 Jun 2006)

Our guys were ordered to make the mod.  Not sure about leaving one standard.  If this is the case then perhaps the manufacturer should be incorporating this into the design.


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## paracowboy (18 Jun 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Our guys were ordered to make the mod.  Not sure about leaving one standard.  If this is the case then perhaps the manufacturer should be incorporating this into the design.


we (3 RCR) tried that a while back. We wanted to get pockets on the sleeves permanently, as well (or instead of) as the useless chest ones. Maybe I can get 'er done out here, with this CO.


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## HItorMiss (18 Jun 2006)

From RSM TF 03-06

Your combat shirts will be handed into to CQ 1 at a time for the modification of the inside pockets to be put on your arms *in theater* So that this modification will cost nothing to the soldiers. 

however all non theater combats are to remain unchanged. Which means your not supposed to have got it done to any of your shirts before you get off the plane in Kandahar. I know it makes no sense to me, why not just do it now before we go but hey I don;t make the rules I just follow them.


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## Armymedic (18 Jun 2006)

Well, let us hope that when the current issue of uniforms are out of stock, the next generation have velcro slash pockets on the chest (so you can get at them from the side, like the cbt coat) large pockets on the upper arms and pen pockets on the lover sleeves, in the same style as the US Army ACU.
The  pants need to have a velcro'ed loop just above both leg pockets to hold the tourniquets you should keep on there.


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## paracowboy (18 Jun 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> From RSM TF 03-06
> 
> Your combat shirts will be handed into to CQ 1 at a time for the modification of the inside pockets to be put on your arms *in theater* So that this modification will cost nothing to the soldiers.
> 
> however all non theater combats are to remain unchanged. Which means your not supposed to have got it done to any of your shirts before you get off the plane in Kandahar. I know it makes no sense to me, why not just do it now before we go but hey I don;t make the rules I just follow them.


helluva improvement, anyway


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## Scoobie Newbie (18 Jun 2006)

Well you are in a postion of change.  That's what they tell me anyway.


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## Britney Spears (18 Jun 2006)

> however all non theater combats are to remain unchanged. Which means your not supposed to have got it done to any of your shirts before you get off the plane in Kandahar. I know it makes no sense to me, why not just do it now before we go but hey *I don;t make the rules I just follow them.*



I'm guessing HitorMiss is referring to himself,  not the RSM. The RSM presumably DOES make the rules (well, he can make the rules for himself anyway).


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## Devlin (18 Jun 2006)

It never ceases to amaze me how something so obvious an improvement is not adopted by more Units/CO's/RSM's/members. I guess the CF being what it is we would have to have an RFP written up for new shirts, oh but first a study on said shirts effectiveness, a second study to validate the findings of the first study. 

Then we would shop the RFP around Ottawa, wait another 3-5 years for a manufacturing operation to be put in place....etc etc etc...

Seriously though I mean just can we for once act on something that makes obvious sense. Mind boggling.


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## Hot Lips (18 Jun 2006)

Devlin said:
			
		

> It never ceases to amaze me how something so obvious an improvement is not adopted by more Units/CO's/RSM's/members. I guess the CF being what it is we would have to have an RFP written up for new shirts, oh but first a study on said shirts effectiveness, a second study to validate the findings of the first study.
> 
> Then we would shop the RFP around Ottawa, wait another 3-5 years for a manufacturing operation to be put in place....etc etc etc...
> 
> *Seriously though I mean just can we for once act on something that makes obvious sense. Mind boggling.*


 Well that just makes too much sense  

HL


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## Hot Lips (18 Jun 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> From RSM TF 03-06
> 
> Your combat shirts will be handed into to CQ 1 at a time for the modification of the inside pockets to be put on your arms *in theater* So that this modification will cost nothing to the soldiers.
> 
> however all non theater combats are to remain unchanged. Which means your not supposed to have got it done to any of your shirts before you get off the plane in Kandahar. I know it makes no sense to me, why not just do it now before we go but hey* I don;t make the rules I just follow them.*


 Wasn't there some issue with you and non-issued Oakleys  ;D

HL


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## HItorMiss (18 Jun 2006)

Well what the RSM doesn't see can't hurt me....and there were a "few" issues with them last tour yeah but hey I looked good so you know I just kepted wearing them  8)

Brit: Yes I should have made it clear that the second paragraph was myself speaking and not that of the RSM, lord knows they wont ever have me make the rules LOL


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## vonGarvin (18 Jun 2006)

You know what kills me about the pockets as issued on the cadpat shirt?  Those are/were C1 magazine pockets.  Why on earth are they still like that???


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## medicineman (18 Jun 2006)

What??!!  We don`t use C1`s anymore??!!

MM


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

medicineman said:
			
		

> What??!!  We don`t use C1`s anymore??!!
> 
> MM


What's a C1?  





(just kidding!  I was around when they were still in service.)


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## HItorMiss (18 Jun 2006)

The old FN was called the C1 Mud.


(DOH! I see it now Mud...LMAO Recce eyes on me)


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## McG (18 Jun 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Not to mention that the combats don't come like this.  The troops must cut and paste themselves.


No.  The soldiers currently in Afghanistan had this done by TFA.  It was not a do-it-yourself project (except by a few that did thier own early).



			
				Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Not the point.  Troops should be given the kit they need, as they need it.


As did happen for TF 1-06 (even if it was a bit slow).


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## 17thRecceSgt (18 Jun 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> The old FN was called the C1 Mud.



 ;D  you missed the bottom of that post HoM


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## Scoobie Newbie (18 Jun 2006)

Well MCG the troops currently in Shilo have been told to get it done themselves.


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## McG (18 Jun 2006)

Devlin said:
			
		

> Seriously though I mean just can we for once act on something that makes obvious sense. Mind boggling.


It seems that Ottawa is investigating adding sleeves to the armour.  I understand that (at a national level) there has been slow progress on accepting cbt shirt sleeve pockets because they would just become another set of unavailable pockets once the new armour is out. (Considering how much the shoulder pads don't work, I don't know how one would make armoured sleeves work)


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## HollywoodHitman (19 Jun 2006)

The pockets sewn on the sleeves aren't the C1 pockets. Some guys did that, but thats their own concept. The shirts that were turned in and modified with sanctions from higher have had the inner, velcro enclosed pockets from the LOWER hip level pockets on the sleeves.  They're good. Actually smacks of common sense. Removing the main pockets from the chest (C1 type) would make good sense too, now that our torsos are always covered by armour and or vests of one kind or another.

Cheers.

HH


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## McG (19 Jun 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> From RSM TF 03-06
> 
> Your combat shirts will be handed into to CQ 1 at a time for the modification of the inside pockets to be put on your arms *in theater* So that this modification will cost nothing to the soldiers.





			
				Quagmire said:
			
		

> troops currently in Shilo have been told to get it done themselves.


Is the BG not yet talking to its parts?


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## Scoobie Newbie (19 Jun 2006)

Well 2VP are the poor cousins at best with the rest of the Reg.  I can only wonder how things are with the RCR.


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## HItorMiss (19 Jun 2006)

The Problem likely lies in the fact that most of the BG is stationed in Pet, and even then the individual RSM/CSM seem to be making their own policies...trust me I have heard it and seen it with my own ears/eyes.

I think 2VP probably saw it as a good idea and said Troops go do this, where as the TF RSM said yup great idea we'll do it in theater asap so it wont cost the troops any money. All the while word was out at 2 VP about doing it yourself.


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## Scoobie Newbie (19 Jun 2006)

Nothing like waiting till the last minute to get it done.  Granted the troops paying is not on.


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## HItorMiss (19 Jun 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Nothing like waiting till the last minute to get it done.




Don't even get me started on last minute to get things done. I'm on the TCCC course as of last week till the 23 with a field ex portion, I have to have my UAB packed for turn in by the 26th with a Parade on the 25th and then an IED test of 21 questions all essay like answer which was given to the troops last week on the 27th.

I'm not sure when I'll study for that but hey I guess I'll just give up more time with my family yet again, I mean hey it's only a 6 month tour right...not like I did 9 months of work up most of which was field time and early report times with late end days, heck why would I want to see my family before tour...Oh and Admin for the troops bah who needs it, by the way we want to know your destination plans for HLTA right now so hurry up and make up your mind. Hey I mean nothing say's organized like heeping on the work last minute.

OK well that was a load of my chest.


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## Scoobie Newbie (19 Jun 2006)

I guess I shouldn't tell you that things are loose and fancy free here then should I.


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## Loachman (20 Jun 2006)

About those chest pockets and incompatibility with vests - don't forget that field troops are in the minority. There's a whole s**tload of HQs, schools, and other odds and sods which have requirements too. Why should they have to put up with mods that only cater to the pointy-end guys?

As for shifting pockets from one location to another - do they have to be moved back before turning the shirts back in so that they can be moved again after re-issue?


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## paracowboy (20 Jun 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> About those chest pockets and incompatibility with vests - don't forget that field troops are in the minority. There's a whole s**tload of HQs, schools, and other odds and sods which have requirements too. Why should they have to put up with mods that only cater to the pointy-end guys?


because their jobs only exist to support the pointy-end guys. The entire system is designed (or is supposed to be) around the concept that everyone is a rifleman first. Especially in today's asymmetric battlefield. There is no front line, and everyone wears the fightin' and dyin' kit. If it works for a bayonet, it works for a fin clerk.


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## Britney Spears (20 Jun 2006)

> Why should they have to put up with mods that only cater to the pointy-end guys?



Because combat shirts are neither neccesary nor designed for sitting around in a office. That's why they're called COMBAT shirts. If a soldier has kit in his pocket that he cannot get at in the middle of a battle because his pockets are under his armour, he might DIE. What exactly are your "HQ, School, odds and sods" requirements for combat clothing? Can you demonstrate convincingly that you will a) never train with body armour and b) have a pressing need to carry 2 x FN C1 magazines on your chest? Why the hell should anyone even care? No one is in danger of being killed by enemy action at any of these HQs or schools are they? Do you want your own webbing that carries less kit because you don't need to carry as many C7 magazines when you're sitting around your office too?  ???


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Jun 2006)

Ahhhhh Loachman your the type that give the rest of the CSS a bad rep.  Time to turn your self onto recieve for awhile and not post things that are ignorant at best and stupid at worst.


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## Thompson_JM (20 Jun 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> About those chest pockets and incompatibility with vests - don't forget that field troops are in the minority. There's a whole s**tload of HQs, schools, and other odds and sods which have requirements too. Why should they have to put up with mods that only cater to the pointy-end guys?




because as a CSS guy i still want to be able to fight, and i dont care if some chair cowboy doesnt like it. like the rest of em said, we exist to support the pointy end. why not train as we fight?  

Plain and simple, if HQ is concerned about looking pretty then they can wear their DEUs to work every day.. Combats were, as britney stated made for one thing. combat..


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Jun 2006)

+1 Thompson.


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## Loachman (20 Jun 2006)

Well, I guess that my sarcasm was a bit too subtle...

Don't worry, I know full well where the priority should lie, as do the vast majority in this particular HQ, having been (and hopefully again before I get too old and creaky) pointy end. I've been heavily involved in fights for decent kit before, with mixed results, and I've seen how long it takes to get even the simplest minor change made, no matter how sensible.

The worse an idea is, however, the more support it gets at higher levels and the quicker it gets pushed through.


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Jun 2006)

I apologize if you were being sarcastic.  That said there are smiles : that better convey that thought/emotion et al.


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## Loachman (20 Jun 2006)

No problem. I never liked smilies though.

Now - do "they" make people move pockets back prior to turning shirts in, or have "they" become sensible about that?


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## McG (20 Jun 2006)

The pockets do not have to be moved back.


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## Thompson_JM (20 Jun 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Well, I guess that my sarcasm was a bit too subtle...
> 
> Don't worry, I know full well where the priority should lie, as do the vast majority in this particular HQ, having been (and hopefully again before I get too old and creaky) pointy end. I've been heavily involved in fights for decent kit before, with mixed results, and I've seen how long it takes to get even the simplest minor change made, no matter how sensible.
> 
> The worse an idea is, however, the more support it gets at higher levels and the quicker it gets pushed through.



Seen...


I did think it odd that a guy with 30+ years in service, and ex-rcr would say something like that......  now i know why....  8)


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## prom (20 Jun 2006)

myself... i would make the current COMBAT shirt as a garrison shirt, and make another feild combat shitr for wear under the TV and armour. perhaps this shirt could be in the manner of the design of the crye comabt shirt http://www.cryeprecision.com/product1.asp?P=CS1


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## CDNBlackhawk (20 Jun 2006)

damn thats a nice shirt, if only it came in Cadpat, I would be all over that, especially if it came in cadpat Arid!


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## paracowboy (20 Jun 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Well, I guess that my sarcasm was a bit too subtle...


yup, slipped right past me, too! But then, my radar is off lately.


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## prom (21 Jun 2006)

well there is one draw back to it, that is why i suggested soemthing similar to it, and that is it has alot of synthetics for moisture wicking add some heat and fire...= melt =bad for the guy wearing it.


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## 17thRecceSgt (22 Jun 2006)

Maybe I am out in left field, but I thought he meant it like "is everyone else getting this too?" vice the way it...came across to everyone else.  I dunno.  Just me.


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## MPSHIELD (25 Jun 2006)

So then, after all this discussion, how can we change the combat shirt? UCR? Has somehting been done?

I too don't like the C1 pockets as they are impraticable and obsolete. My thoughts on the Combat shirt are:
As someone mentioned, I agree that they should be replaced with slant pockets like the ICE jacket. 
We should have pocket on both sleeves with velcro patches for IR flags.
Someone also mentioned a Mandarin collar, however I have no experience of pros and cons. I think the concept itself would be better for certain environements such as a dust storm and warmth in colder conditions. I think a system like the new US pattern would work which it can be warn collar up or down.

What can we do? Can we do anythings? Would someone at NDHQ take action?

Just a thought


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Jun 2006)

UCR's have been done.  I guess no one cares or they aren't listening.


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## McG (25 Jun 2006)

MPSHIELD said:
			
		

> I too don't like the C1 pockets as they are impraticable and obsolete.


 . . . but if we change those pockets, then all the little notebooks would be the wrong size!  



			
				Quagmire said:
			
		

> UCR's have been done.  I guess no one cares or they aren't listening.


See comment above about armour sleeves.


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Jun 2006)

Oh I have read that but haven't seen them in theatre nor any timeline on when they are being pushed through.  If they take as long as the ruck we'll probably have a new uniform anyway.  Besides I thought the US weren't fans of them unless mounted ie turret gunner.


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Jun 2006)

No need to make new pockets (ie size).  Just more of the breast pocket and mount one on each sleeve.  Leave the one on the breast.  10min more in the making of the shirt.


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## paracowboy (26 Jun 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> No need to make new pockets (ie size).  Just more of the breast pocket and mount one on each sleeve.  Leave the one on the breast.  10min more in the making of the shirt.


exactly! You don't want a Velcro-secured pocket on your sleeve, anyway. Velcro is loud. Buttons are quiet. Loud noises are even louder at night. Louder yet in the desert at night.


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## Catherine Faye (16 Jul 2006)

Considering the amont of time the "clothe the soldier" took. I would not be suprised if it takes 20?? to make desired changes to the uniform.


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## doomwolf (28 Jul 2006)

I like the breast pockets, but I've never been overseas (reserve). That said, arm pocket would A) make sense and B) allow you to carry more stuff over all; in the field you could stick something you don't need on your person but not instant access to in the breast pocket (spare glasses? I always take them on Ex, and I want them on me, but I've never needed them).


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## poko (3 Aug 2006)

I was there not to long ago  and we had to set up a tent for the Afgan local to pray because there where the one making the modification on the shirt.


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## Jammer (4 Aug 2006)

Just so everyone is up to speed. The shirt mods have been authorized by the CDS...NOT the TF RSM.
I had mine done at KAF while I was there for two months in Apr/May. On my last trip to Pet from K-Town the TF RSM had a go at me for having "illegal" mods and ordered me to remove them. Respectfully I declined, and after an explanation as to why, he just huffed and walked away grumbling..


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Aug 2006)

You wouldn't happen to be able to provide me something in writing would you.  I believe you however its never a bad thing to have proof positive.


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## Jammer (4 Aug 2006)

Check CANLANDGENs


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Aug 2006)

Thanks.  I'll have a look tomorrow but may be back for more precise directions.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Aug 2006)

Post it for everyone. They can carry a copy in their pocket,


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## vonGarvin (4 Aug 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Post it for everyone. They can carry a copy in their pocket,


Yes, in their modified pocket no less (grin)
I still cannot believe that we don't have authorised "CDS-Stamp of approval" sleeve pockets.  Buttons, not velcro, as others have said here.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Aug 2006)

von Garvin said:
			
		

> Yes, in their modified pocket no less (grin)
> I still cannot believe that we don't have authorised "CDS-Stamp of approval" sleeve pockets.  Buttons, not velcro, as others have said here.



I was going to say someting about rock painting monkeys, but I'll refain in deference to you VG  ;D


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