# I GOT A CALL FOR the NOAB" Threads



## Maritime_Matt (13 Oct 2005)

...Is anybody else out there going to this? Should be a good time.


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## chemical_general (12 Apr 2007)

Hey guys, i am just curious if they have had the NOAB for 2007 yet? or if anyone hear a word on when the next NOAB will be.

thanks


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## Torlyn (12 Apr 2007)

They've already run one through the west coast here...  I believe the next one is in Halifax, but you'd have to check with your recruiter to find out for sure.  Good luck,

T


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## chemical_general (12 Apr 2007)

thanks for your reply Toryln,
when did that NOAB take place? in April?


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## Torlyn (12 Apr 2007)

IIRC, It was around the middle of March...  I was in the middle of MARS III, so dates got quite blurry for a while there...

T


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## watusi77 (15 Apr 2007)

chemical_general said:
			
		

> Hey guys, i am just curious if they have had the NOAB for 2007 yet? or if anyone hear a word on when the next NOAB will be.
> 
> thanks
> 
> ...


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## watusi77 (9 May 2007)

Latest information indicates next NOAB is scheduled for June 18-22 in Esquimalt.

Recruiting indicated to me that people for the NOAB will be advised anywhere from a month to the week before
the board.


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## watusi77 (7 Jun 2007)

NOAB 18-22 June Esquimalt Any one else going??
I guess not to many future Sailors make it to this site but if so, is anybody else scheduled for this
upcoming NOAB??
Can anyone offer any other info i.e., SIP forcasts?  2007, how many slated for this NOAB and how many 
expected to qualify? Is there a number of IAP/BOTC slots already reserved for these people in the Fall?
Any info would be appreciated


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## Rowshambow (26 Jun 2007)

just wondering (and too lazy to look through the search) what do you cover (or tested on ) for the NOAB's?


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## watusi77 (26 Jun 2007)

Rowshambow said:
			
		

> just wondering (and too lazy to look through the search) what do you cover (or tested on ) for the NOAB's?




See Reven re Naval Officer Assessment Board 24 Oct 2006 and references to MOST

As noted by Cayuga:
It is a pattern recognition, mental math and learning speed test. You could do some IQ Tests as a warm up and then do some mental math review. Go over things like multiplication in your head and divide big numbers by other numbers, like how many times does 17 go into 374? It is a timed test so you have to be quick about it.

All I remember is that all the candidates for MARS at my NAOB did it first, and they had a wide range of university degrees but not too many math intensive ones and not all recent grads. A lot of them came out complaining how tough it was and how they ran out of time.  Then the next day the engineers took the test and most of us were fresh out of university and we zipped through it with no problems, waiting around for each timed period to end so we can go onto the next phase. The difference in outlooks was quiet humorous.

If you want to be a MARS officer, practice mental math, simple things like 3,6,8,9, and 16 times tables, fractions of 60 and math like (5x6)/3  which tells you that your CPA to buoy that is 5 degrees off your starboard bow at 6 miles is 1000 yards, which can alternately be worked out by knowing that 5 is a twelfth of 60 and a twelfth of 6 miles is 1000 yards.

((Also be comfortable with knots speed))


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## watusi77 (26 Jun 2007)

Further, of the 15 or 16 who attended the recent NOAB June 2007 in Esquimalt, 
all of the engineers, I think it was five, passed and were selected. Of the remainder half 
of them were selected, with a failure rate of fifty per cent. 
It has been noted that one can reapply for NOAB again in six months and that 
applicants that come for a second NOAB don't have a failure at an earlier one held against them.


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## Domino_Morphious (15 Jul 2007)

Hey ive gone through the forums and checked out info related to all general MARS officer questions ( at leats what i could find using the search tool and scaning some more specific threads). I have done some looking around but still have some questions (before i get to these questions, if you would like to mention this has already been answered some where else on the forums, please send a link to post with these answers [seems to be a small issue on other threads where i keep seeing people mentiong this has been answered but no helpful links). Any how I thank you ahead of time for any info you can give me. (If you would rather send me an e-mail with info, you can contact me at dominomorphious@hotmail.com)

Q1: I have been 100% accepted and passed the simple (for me) test needed for initial acceptance as a MARS officers im waiting for the next NOAB and im from Halifax (so i assume i must go out west from what i read and have been explained about). Does any one have a idea when this will be, my recruiter says to keep calling for updates but has not given me any more information yet.

Q2: For the week that you spend on the other side of coast, do you get paid for your time during the Naval Officer Assesment Board (NOAB) Esquimalt 

Q3: Im a DEO (Direct entry officer fresh out of University) ive found general information on officer pay and the pay scales (I assume and realize this varies from position to position) but can some one post or e-mail me what a MARS officer would recieve after basic training as DEO

Q4: More on money, for the scales linked in various forums and on forces.ca site, it shows it in months, im slightly confused: I think it means (correct me if im wrong) that a DEO is C level and would have a base pay of 3XXX  (at 2nd Lt after BOTP) that increase by ~ 200 the next year unless the person gained a rank. Is this true? because the graph seems misleading and looks to appear that this is going up every month until a set number (this seems stupid to assume but again i rather get that 100% cleared, on other forum post it appears that Pay and benefits goes up on the anniversity of your last rank obtained)

Any how i would like to again say thanks in advance for any helpful information, it sucks the recruitment office is closed fri,sat, anhd sunday so i thought i thoughpost some stuff here. Im not too concern with the actual wages but it is interesting to know for myself at least who has a lump syudent loan siting on my shoulder and trying to figure out the best way to be out of debt. Hopefully i do not have to wait too long as i rather join sooner than later. Again so I can pay my loan off faster and also so im not stuck looking for a second part/full time job that I will only be in for a few months any how, 

Cheers Guys


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## JLeclerc (8 Aug 2007)

I am currently merit listed and waiting on my NOAB and BOTC dates for Navy MARS officer. I wanted to know if anyone else was also waiting or might have been given future dates already for the same training?

Here's to hoping sooner than later! Thanks!


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## JLeclerc (8 Aug 2007)

Got my answer from the recruiting office in Montreal this morning actually. Took a few phone calls but here it is for those similarly interested...

Next merit board for MARS Officer sits on Sept 13th for pre-selection. After which all chosen candidates will be given the dates of 2nd week of October for the NOAB in Esquimalt, BC.


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## Domino_Morphious (13 Aug 2007)

Man im glad i check the forums, im in the exact same boat (eg. Was waiting to find out when i leave for NOAB and Basic).
I posted a few questions on another forum post ( http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/59831.0.html ) about NOAB but got no replies.

Here some of the ones im still fairly curious about: 

1) For the week that you spend on the other side of coast, do you get paid for your time during the Naval Officer Assesment Board (NOAB) Esquimalt

2) Im a DEO (Direct entry officer fresh out of University) ive found general information on officer pay and the pay scales (I assume and realize this varies from position to position) but can some one post or e-mail me what a MARS officer would recieve after basic training as DEO

I would like to thank you again for posting the info you found online, I was frustrated in trying to figure out if I should find a better paying/ second job while i waited, since my recruiting centre told me they usually do not find about the next NOAB until the week before hand. I was also told that * you do not have to go to NOAB if they decide to recruit you straight in * (This will not happen with me I don't think but i thought i post that this does happen for those who where confused...It mostly for those who have a history with the forces.


Well see you in a few months...


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## kincanucks (13 Aug 2007)

Domino_Morphious said:
			
		

> Man im glad i check the forums, im in the exact same boat (eg. Was waiting to find out when i leave for NOAB and Basic).
> I posted a few questions on another forum post ( http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/59831.0.html ) about NOAB but got no replies.
> 
> Here some of the ones im still fairly curious about:
> ...



I can answer question one but for question two there is plenty of information on these boards about pay.  You will not be paid a salary while on the NOAB unless you are already in the military but your accommodation and meals will be paid for by the CF.


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## JLeclerc (13 Aug 2007)

Yes exactly, no pay for such but your air fares, food, lodging (everything from A to Z) while you are out for NOAB is covered. As for your pay after, it goes by rank of course. Check out the DND website for pay scales and regulations upon when you receive rank upgrades etc as you complete phases of training. 

EDIT: Also, I am not sure if as DEO VS my CEOTP entry changes anything to the dates I gave in my prior posts. They usually don't hand out dates and open spots for programs but I have a liaison with a recruit center officer because of the exceptional wait times (over a year now) on my recruit file.

To those interested, available CEOTP MARS spots were at 20, down from 25, when I received the dates and info posted above.

Happy it helps anyways!


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## Domino_Morphious (13 Aug 2007)

The times should still be the same for DEO and CEOTP, it also makes sense because they had one the other month in Halifax. I was curious about pay during NOAB to compensate for time lost at work. I have check DND website and these forums about pay rates and if I recall right they give an average rate for officers. I was more interested in knowing the variation from this rate being a MARS DEO, that and i found the way they present the info hard to understand (If i recall right column C is usually DEO pay, I see the ranks and i assume pay increases annually but was not postive if this is showing the pay for the month, or the bi month pay (eg: $1 dollar once a month, increased to $2 the annual year (from that rank), or if its this amount being paid once on the 15th then again at the end of the month [which of course is a huge price difference] ). I will have plenty of time to figure out pay & benefits once im in, I just like computing numbers (Like how much of my pay should i be puting towards my loan, savings, etc.). 
Fill free to try and figure out what im trying to say, (you may ignore it as well if it too confusing), but yeah a link to a better explanation (that may be already on the forums but i missed) would work great, cheers.


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## aesop081 (13 Aug 2007)

Domino_Morphious said:
			
		

> I was curious about pay during NOAB to compensate for time lost at work.



As you were told there's no pay during NOAB


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## lotion (7 Sep 2007)

It's funny how if you fail in other trades you can go Mars without ever doing any tests.


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## navymich (7 Sep 2007)

lotion said:
			
		

> It's funny how if you fail in other trades you can go Mars without ever doing any tests.



And you get your information for this from where?  Reading through your recent posts, you seem to have knowledge on many topics.  I strongly suggest that you fill out your profile to back that up with.  I am sure that you will questioned by many more members on this site.  As well, when you post such statements, ensure you have background and more information to your writing.


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## kincanucks (7 Sep 2007)

lotion said:
			
		

> It's funny how if you fail in other trades you can go Mars without ever doing any tests.



Actually it is even funnier that you can register on this site and then post shyte without ever doing any tests.


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## Cronicbny (7 Sep 2007)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Actually it is even funnier that you can register on this site and then post shyte without ever doing any tests.



Concur


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## Domino_Morphious (7 Sep 2007)

lotion said:
			
		

> It's funny how if you fail in other trades you can go Mars without ever doing any tests.



The things people will say online...any how as a (hope to be) future MARS officer, you have more than your share of tests and reviews to get within the field from what Ive experienced, read about and heard from various sources. Even if the comment by *Lotion* has occured or is possible, If one does not show/have the leadership skills needed as a MARS officer and the determination to lead and command then they will struggle to stay within this career field.

Any how Im looking forward to NOAB and seeing the other side of the coast, mean time spending time with friends and family and training hard for BOTP, cheers guys.


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## Lofty (12 Sep 2007)

I can certainly understand your position, pay is important, especially if you have massive student loan debt. You probably want to develop a budget and see how things may look in you future. here is the nitty gritty on pay from a DEO MARS with 2 years in (not the gospel as rates have likely changed but good enough for a rough budget plan)

Expect pay to be very confusing at basic - when I went through there was little understanding of how we were being paid. It all seemed very random and the pay seemed low. Best advice - take what they give you and wait until you get to Esquimalt. Then review your pay statements closely - take any questions to the Base Orderly Room in Esquimalt.

Generally, you will receive exactly what the pay chart indicates at the recruiting site. However it can be confusing at first glance. A quick look at the current rates shows that an Acting sub lieutenant in their first year of service (You after basic training) can expect $3687 per month gross, which is $1843.50 twice a month.

Deductions  you can expect: 
$25 for wardroom mess dues
$230 for quarters (if you choose to live on base)
$370 for rations (again for on base only)
Applicable taxes 
CPP
SISSIP (Military) life insurance
Superanuation
EI 

Taxable allowences will include "Post Living Differential" used to offset the high cost of life in Victoria - this amounts to roughly $460 before tax. There is also extra pay for time spent at sea. On MARS courses expect two weeks for the first course, two weeks for the second and six weeks for the third Pay is set at roughly 9.50/day. More a bonus to offset money spent on "social activity" while at sea.

Given all the above factors, as a very general idea, expect to make between $1400 and $1500 net pay, twice a month while training at Venture.

Hope this helps, and best of luck!!

Lofty


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## Domino_Morphious (12 Sep 2007)

That helps a lot, its a good reference to look on  (I played around with the numbers and tax rates, I extremly underestimated how long its going to take to pay my large student loan, oh well). 


Well I hope to hear some news soon, too much time on my hands with no school this year (even with all the extra time spent training)


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## JLeclerc (12 Sep 2007)

Unless somebody made a typo...(this directly from the Directorate of Pay Policy and development site)

"Pay Level

A - ROTP (former CBI 204.2111 & 204.2151)
B - OCTP-NFS (former CBI 204.2113 & 204.2153)
C - DEO (former CBI 204.2114 & 204.2154)
D - UTP-NCM / OCTP-FS (former CBI 204.2112, 204.21135, 204.2152 & 204.21535)
E - CFR (former CBI 204.212) "

So C level IS DEO under pay allowances directive.


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## JLeclerc (25 Sep 2007)

Well, as my file progresses, I have been handed my next date and should get all the details tomorrow morning about this next phase.

Next NOAB dates in Esquimalt, BC will be from October 14th -19th.

Anyone else scheduled for this yet?

Also, I know some of you reading this have seen the NOAB outlined week post in the forums, and I can't seem to find it anymore. If anyone of you could link it here I'd appriciate it. Thanks!

EDIT: I have found it after a bit more searching....http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/threads/52231.0.html. Thanks!


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## Sea Dragon (26 Sep 2007)

I've been scheduled for the Oct. 2007 NOAB.  Just waiting to get the paperwork/stuff at the CFRC.  Can't wait!  

You can also find the day-by-day for the NOAB (Oct. 2006) on the website; www.excelsia.org (search there by topic) for the photos and description (it's essentially the same post).


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## abduly85 (27 Sep 2007)

I've been scheduled for the Oct. NOAB as well.
see you all there


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## wieselette (10 Oct 2007)

I have been scheduled for my NOAB in a couple of days . I have to say , I'm quite nervous about it. I'm going in DEO , and I'm hoping that I do get selected. It's been something I have wanted to do for quite sometime , was going to apply right out of highschool , but I wanted my university degree first and it was something I wanted to do on my own  

Anyone given much information about the NOAB next week ? My recruting office did not really have much for me to go on. For instance I asked what the RAF test involved and it seemed like there wasn't much information given. 

Just wondering if anyone out there got any information they can share with me , as I'm quite nervous and don't really know what to expect


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## JLeclerc (10 Oct 2007)

Read the above posts and check out the links presented there.

Ill see you all on sunday!


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## Domino_Morphious (11 Oct 2007)

I will say JLeclerc  had more info for me, and sooner (by like 3 months) than my recruit office (information was just not sent to them for some reason until much later). Any how I will see you guys sunday after my 7 hour flight  and a few time zone changes, heh.


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## Delicron (21 Feb 2008)

Hopefully I have placed this in the right forum.

I just wanted to put a call out to anyone who will be attending the March 3rd to 7th NOAB in Esquimalt.  If there is anyone on here who is going to that board, we might as well get acquainted!  I know there are a couple around, but I'm not sure how many are lurking around who are going.  It might get us a head start and make it less awkward when we finally all meet (and hopefully, if we are all successful, we can put the same information in the May 5th BMOQ thread as well  ;D)

I'll start:

Name: Chiarizia
Intended MOC: MARS
CFRC: Calgary
Age: 28

Again, hopefully this isn't excessive, just thought it would be relevant.  I look forward to seeing you all!


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## Freebird (23 Feb 2008)

Hey, I got my call a few weeks ago, so I'll be there too, should be fun.  

Name: Eric
Intended MOC: MARS
CFRC: Vancouver
Age: 22


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## Scathach (25 Feb 2008)

Eh Delicron (or should I say Chiarizia - is this your fist name or family name?), 

Here is my own information: 

Name: Andree
Intended MOC: MARS
CFRC: Halifax
Age: 33

I could also add that my entry level is CEOTP, since I will be completing my Bachelor degree in Management. 

Have a great day!


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## Delicron (25 Feb 2008)

Hehe, guess I should have made it more clear  ;D, cause I'm not sure if Eric is Freebird's last or first name!

Chiarizia is my last name, and I'm going in DEO!


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## Kevin (25 Feb 2008)

Guess I'm up

My name's Kevin, I'll be seeing you all in B.C. as well

CFRC - Oshawa
Entry Plan - DEO

Thanks for starting the thread Delicron, looking forward to meeting everyone.


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## Scathach (25 Feb 2008)

Just got my letter and plane ticket. 
Ugh. 
Needed to buy "business style" suit, since I only own jeans and casual pants... 
Just completed my CV too.   
How you guys doing?
Looking forward to jet lag! Going Coast to Coast!!!
A.


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## medaid (25 Feb 2008)

wow so many people wanting to go MARS  

Good on you guys... but you do know that MARS Os eat their young right?

Better have a good fall back plan folks  and best of luck!


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## Delicron (25 Feb 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> wow so many people wanting to go MARS
> 
> Good on you guys... but you do know that MARS Os eat their young right?
> 
> Better have a good fall back plan folks  and best of luck!



Well, I figure if this doesn't work, there are plenty of careers in the Forces I could handle (mainly pilot of course... I want to use that Commercial license for something!).  I've heard that comment quite a few times and definitely think I have my work cut out for me.  When I was talking to my file manager, she mentioned the minimum score from the CFAT, Interview, and Medical was 20 points higher for MARS than it is for pilot.  Not withstanding not knowing what the scale is out of, it surprised me to see that MARS had a higher bar!  So needless to say, I'm scared #$%@less and excited all at the same time.  I like a challenge, and this looks to be a major one.

And Scathach, did they tell you to bring a Resume / CV?  No one told me anything about that...  I have one ready, just seems odd to me after the whole process we've been through.


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## Delicron (26 Feb 2008)

Scathach said:
			
		

> Just completed my CV too.



Thankfully your comment made me go over my package more thoroughly... And yeah we do have to bring a CV.  Can't imagine if I hadn't read it!  :-[


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## Scathach (26 Feb 2008)

QUOTE: "Good on you guys... but you do know that MARS Os eat their young right?"

That should be interesting. There is nothing like a good challenge!

Glad I could help you. See? Team work already!!! I am heading for Staples to print the darn thing, maybe use a _fancy schmancy_ presentation document too. What the heck! Let's not spare the expenses! LOL   

A.


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## Delicron (9 Mar 2008)

Bwahahaha...we got it done, and we all got offers!  (Those of use that are on here anyways...).  It was a great week.  If anyone from this NOAB hasn't joined the Facebook group we created, please PM me and I will get you all the info necessary!  Congrats everyone!   ;D


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## George Wallace (9 Mar 2008)

Are you sure Facebook is the thing to do?


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## Delicron (9 Mar 2008)

I took that into account.  It's a private group.  Just for us to keep in contact with each other.  The contents are private, and the group will not be searchable.

Some of the stuff we saw cannot be displayed publicly... so I wouldn't want to compromise PerSEC or OpSec... (which is why there is no link to it here).


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## George Wallace (9 Mar 2008)

Nothing is private on the internet.  Everything is usually searchable, and there are lots of backdoors.


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## Delicron (9 Mar 2008)

Understandable.  But we all decided as a group this is how we wanted to stay in contact, and I am taking all measures to prevent any sort of accidental display.  I am the keyholder to this group as well, so no one can join or view unless I say so.  Beyond this, they could have just viewed the two TV interviews (A-Channel Victoria and ShawTV) me and another NOAB Candidate did just before we did our day-sail...cause they will likely display more information than any of us will ever post... including our real names.

So I don't know what else to do there...


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## Yrys (9 Mar 2008)

Delicron said:
			
		

> so no one can join or *view unless I say so*



That is what you think.


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## Delicron (9 Mar 2008)

Ok..fine.. I don't know why I suddenly need to be lectured here.  What I was saying is:  *There is more information available from the media about our NOAB than there will be in this group.*  I've done what I can, and beyond that, if someone really wants to know that bad, he's probably already scanning my email somehow.  I am NOT being cavalier, I am not being reckless.  I have done what I can to make it difficult for someone to get information about what occurred last week.  There is more information on this website already than there has ever been in our Facebook group.  Heck, I believe there is a group on Facebook for some members of this site... so why (edit) remind me that what I post could be seen by undesirables?  Everything here is subject to the same...


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## George Wallace (9 Mar 2008)

Exactly!   (Nice little rant though.  ;D )


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## WaitingTime (24 May 2008)

I just got a call to go to NOAB next month for NCS ENG, but most of the information I have been reading on this site seems to be focused on MARS.  From what I read it seems that both MARS and NCS candidates go to the same NOAB?  Is MOST the same for both as well? Any advice on how to prepare besides doing lots of mental math?  Also, MARS III and IV courses seem to be fairly difficult.  What about NCS training, how difficult is that?  Any advice would be greatly appreciated.  Any stories from people who gone through the process?


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## Strace (15 Jun 2008)

Hello, everyone: 
 My Gerenal area of concern, is that i've been selected to go NOAB in a few days from now.  I've been researching general naval history, and brushing up  on general information about the RCN.  I know that the MOST exam, is all mental math review, and the interview is probably straight forward questions.

  I was wondering if there was any general tips, that someone could possible help me out with. Any advice about the Exams, Interview or General Information.   I'm really nervous about this board assessments, because its a career that i'm really excited for, and don't want to be the one that they turn away saying you don't have what it takes to become a MARS Officer.

 If there were any tips, that I should do, to impress the recruiters.  If so could anyone please express their suggestions
 thanks for any help.....


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## Roman (15 Jun 2008)

You should read this excellent post if you haven't already:

http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/threads/52231.0.html

See you next week


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## WaitingTime (15 Jun 2008)

I am also going to the same NOAB next week.  Where is your CFRC? There are a few posts regarding the NOAB if you use the search function.  There is one that gives a day by day information on the NOAB.  There is not much information on the MOST except for that it is similar to an IQ test.  A lot of people here just suggest that being yourself is the best way to approach the interview, do not try to think what the board wants to hear and pretend to be what you are not.  

On another note, I am just wondering what kind of clothing is appropriate for each day.  I mean how do we dress on the day of arrival and on the day sail? ( By the way, the day sail is now on Thursday after the MOST and the interview which are held on Tuesday and Wednesday.)  The package I received mentioned "upper end of business casual and to be conservative".


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## Neill McKay (16 Jun 2008)

WaitingTime said:
			
		

> On another note, I am just wondering what kind of clothing is appropriate for each day.  I mean how do we dress on the day of arrival and on the day sail? ( By the way, the day sail is now on Thursday after the MOST and the interview which are held on Tuesday and Wednesday.)  The package I received mentioned "upper end of business casual and to be conservative".



To me, the upper end of business casual implies blazer (or sports jacket) and tie.  That's how most of the NOAB candidates were dressed last time I saw a group of them.  If you should find yourself to be overdressed it's pretty easy to remove your tie and/or jacket as required.


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## Roman (17 Jun 2008)

I have a friend that was on the NOAB about 5 years ago; he said that most days people were dressed in golf shirt / khakis, except for their interviews and dinners.  However things may have changed as the joining instructions I received specifically says the following:

"...upper end of what is considered business casual..."
"For male candidates a suit or jacket and tie are approapriate..."
"As a minimum, a long sleeved shirt and tie with dress trousers and dress shoes."

And also:

"This standard of dress will be required throughout most of the week..."

As Neill says if you overdress it's easy enough to dress down.  Better to be overdressed than underdressed   

Personally I'm bringing enough "upper end business casual" clothes to do me the entire week (shirt / tie, jacket, dress pants), and a few more casual clothes (golf shirt / khakis) in case it turns out to be appropriate.
Oh!  And a warm jacket for the cruise.  I've never been to BC, but I did go for a cruise around Halifax harbor a few summers ago.  I didn't realize it was possible to get a sunburn and hypothermia at the same time


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## Strace (19 Jun 2008)

Hello, everyone:

   Just wanted to see how many ppl were attending NOAB next week, and for what positions?  I just wanted some advice to help me acheive my future dream career as a Mars Officer.  So if there was any pointers anyone could help me out with, for instance the Most exam or the interview.  I'm just really nervous, because its a dream i've had for a long time now.

   thanks


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## WaitingTime (19 Jun 2008)

Strace:  How did you do on your spatial ability test on your CFAT?  As a MARS, that's the skill you need (plus the math, but i think spatial ability probably is a little more important when planning your ship route and such).  I know I did not do too well on spatial ability test, but did well on problem solving.  :crybaby:  A good thing that I am going for NCS ENG rather than MARS.


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## ants (20 Jun 2008)

I'm also going for NCS Eng, I'll see you guys there~


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## WaitingTime (28 Jun 2008)

and the NOAB 08/02 is over.  Had a blast there.  See all of you who doing the BMOQ in late August/early September in St. Jean.


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## soccerfan (28 Jun 2008)

Well done to those who attended recent NAOB and will be attending next BMOQ which, I just saw will be in August/September.  Is anyone aware, if there will be another NAOB prior to August/September BMOQ.  Thanks in advance for any help.


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## WaitingTime (28 Jun 2008)

My guess is that the next NOAB is in October, but don't quote me on that.


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## WaveDancer (2 Jul 2008)

Oh man...I can't believe I hadn't found this forum with all of my previous searches! I was there last week too (it was awesome  ;D ) and am hoping to get loaded for August as well - I imagine we all are   Whooohoooo.

Good luck...keep in touch.


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## romeokilo (10 Jun 2009)

I attended the 2nd NOAB of 2009 (officially called NOAB 0902) two weeks ago and let me tell you it was a BLAST!

The last NOAB experience was posted in 2006 (http://www.excelcia.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=53) , and although mine was not radically different, I know that getting an updated version is always useful – and I am here to help all my fellow recruits.
I will post my experience first, followed by my observations and advice to potential Naval Officer recruits.

*Day 0 – Sunday – Flight In*
My flight was early in the morning from Toronto direct to Victoria. It’s a long flight, but the scenery is stunning. Do not miss it, and yes you can take pictures from the aircraft. I was met at the airport by a CPO1. From there we took the shuttle to the Wardroom at CFB Esquimalt. The ride is scenic and the driver was kind enough to be our tour guide. Wardroom is a fairly recently built building, and it shows. The rooms are spacious, spotlessly clean, and well equipped with iron and ironing board, a TV, a stereo, a desk, and an empty bar fridge (alcohol is prohibited in the rooms). The scenery from nearly any room in Wardroom is gorgeous, with a view of Port Angeles (WA) and of the Olympic Mountains in the distance. I never will forget that view and yearn to see it again.

*Day 1 – Monday – Death by PowerPoint*
The “death by PowerPoint” description was accurate though a bit misleading for this day. A variety of different PowerPoint presentations were delivered by the conducting staff. These included presentations on the CFLRS (the school at St. Jean), the two Naval Engineering Officer trades (MSE and NCSE), the MARS officer trade, and one on the MFRC (Military Family Resource Centre). Most of these presentations were extremely helpful and gave all of us a thorough insight on what lay ahead as Naval Officers. The MFRC presentation did not apply to many of us who don’t have a dependant family, but is very useful to know for the future. So not really ‘death’ by power point, more like a patience test where the reward is knowledge of your future.
What struck me on this day was how different the military world is than the civilian. Nearly everything is covered or taken care of. Everything is orderly and efficient. Every officer and NCM present was professional and happy and willing to answer questions (of which there were tons).


*Day 2 – Tuesday – Day Sail*
For me this was by far the highlight of the week. We set out early morning to Naden, and boarded the HMCS Regina. It was a cold and damp morning with a strong hint of rain, but I did not really care – I was on a ship! (I’m on a boat la-la-la-la, don’t you ever forget). After a safety briefing, we left port and sailed out. To be honest I was so caught up on being there, I did not really fathom where we were. Through the day were given tours of the ship by our Watch Officer and NCM. We toured nearly all of the ship, from the bridge to the decks to the engine room and all. Again, every officer and NCM on board was absolutely courteous and polite and very willing to answer any questions we had. These sailors know their stuff to the T and in their own words would not trade their trade for anything else. We did a man overboard drill early in the day. The ship’s company (even with 400 people on board) was tremendously efficient in retrieving the dummy in less than 5 minutes. After lunch, the ship presented its visitors with some really terrific high-speed manoeuvres, including a hockey stop, and several figure eights. The experience was absolutely exhilarating and truly showed the capability of the ship and its company. 


*Day 3 – Wednesday – MOST and FF/DC*
My watch did our Maritime Officer Selection Test (MOST) this day. It is confidential and there is indeed a good reason for it to be so. You cannot really prepare so to speak, but it will give the Navy (as well as you) a good measure of your aptitude for the MSE/NCSE/MARS trade.  

In the second half of the day, we toured the FF/DC facility. Onboard a ship, an emergency is met head on by everyone as there is no 911 service to you at sea – you are the firefighter! The FF/DC facility is a thorough course in...well...firefighting and damage control! They cover every aspect of the two, and train every sailor to the fullest to prepare them for any emergency onboard. The highlight of this day was the simulated fire which was very realistic as was the simulated helicopter fire. As was said in another thread, Hollywood special effects teams are amateurs compared to what we have here.
*
Day 4 – Thursday – Board Interviews and FMF/QHM*
We did the Fleet Maintenance Facility and Queen’s Harbour Master tours in the first half of the day. The FMF is an extensive facility and is very well organized, though is stretched at times when a whole load of ships are undergoing refit/sea readiness as was the case in Operations Apollo and Altair. The QHM is the ATC of the harbour and MARS officers will work with them when in/approaching port. It was neat to see all the technology these folks have at their disposal and they do know how to use it very well.

We had our interviews in the 2nd half of the day. We were led to a hallway, from where we were called in one-by-one to our interviews. The board consisted of two Commanders, and two Lieutenant Commanders – a tremendous amount of experience in one room. I am quite young at 23, and I was a little nervous, but the interviewing officers were never rude or impolite – only firm but relaxed.

*Day 5 – Friday – D-Day*
Decision day – The morning began with a rush of nervous energy and an abnormally quiet breakfast hall, given that everyone knew most everyone else very well by this point. We then went to the Gunroom at NOTC and were led to the same hallway as before and called in order of the interviews. When the Lieutenant called me in from across the hallway, I went into bullet-time (a la Max Payne) and it had to be the longest 30 seconds of walking I had done. The senior officers (same as before) relaxed me with a little joviality before telling me that I had done fairly well and they would be pleased to offer me a MARS Officer’s position. The relief and joy I felt cannot be described, only experienced. The sad part was that 3 of us did not get an offer and it was really heart-wrenching to see them sad because we were all such great friends by then. 
We went back to Wardroom that day and I then left for my early evening flight back to Toronto. 
For me, it took a while for it to really sink in – I am going to be a MARS Officer!

*Observations and Advice*
*The MOST* – You can’t prepare for this, per se. You need to be quite quick at mental math as this is a timed test, much like the CFAT but more rapid. Know your multiplication tables and try to solve math problems in your head rather than on paper – you’ll be surprised how much it helps. Also, like all timed tests, manage your time very carefully.

*The interviews *– The senior officers here probably have more years in the Navy than you have lived. So be honest, and be yourself. Do NOT try to tell them what you think they want to hear. Do NOT try to BS your way around questions just to look good. It does not work – these officers know the difference between Naval Officer material and never officer material.
*
Overall* – This will probably be one of the best weeks of your life – it was the best ever for me. It is also a week of informed decisions. You make one about the Navy and the Navy makes one about you. Read as much as you can about the Canadian Navy. I recommend OP Apollo by Richard Gimblett as it gives a very thorough insight on how the Navy works. Most importantly, be yourself. Be honest to yourself and to the Navy. Ask yourself why you are there. When your answer brings a smile to your face that lasts for hours, that is when you know you are cut out for the Navy. 

*PS: Pictures from my NOAB can be seen here: <http://s590.photobucket.com/albums/ss349/rohanmcnavy/>*


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## eidl (10 Jun 2009)

Thanks for posting about your experience!    I'm hoping to get in on the next one.


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## Antoine (11 Jun 2009)

Congrats Romeokilo to be accepted in the MARS program.

Thanks for your post, well written and your pictures are very good!

Wish you the best for your new exciting career  

Cheers!


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## DIESEL 007 (28 Jul 2009)

Congratulations, im hoping to offered the next one, ive been done the application process and merit listed since june and havent hear anything yet. Just one question for you: Ive read in a few threads NOAB candidates had to write an essay along with the MOST and interviews.  Was anything like this mentioned in your course??


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## FSTO (29 Jul 2009)

Good report. Things sure have changed since 89 when we went to Halifax and ran around in coveralls with numbered bibs on our chests. Good luck in your career!


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## MSEng314 (1 Aug 2009)

Congrats! Those of us who just got back from 0902A all got offers, so I hope to meet you all in St Jean, our start date is August 31st.


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## fritz (8 Jun 2010)

Hello
I'm wondering if anyone has got the call for the July5-9 2010 NOAB? I'm hoping to get the call but I haven't heard anything yet.


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## PMedMoe (8 Jun 2010)

Maybe try this thread:  Naval Officer Assessment Board (NOAB)


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## PegcityNavy (9 Jun 2010)

When i went to NOAB in April i didn't get the call until about 3 weeks before.

Some of the people on my NOAB did not get the call until literally a week before.

So don't worry too much at this point, they aren't ignoring you, they just have alot to organize.


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## fritz (9 Jun 2010)

Thanks, good to know.

How was your NOAB? Anything I should prepare for? Anything surprise you?


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## PegcityNavy (10 Jun 2010)

It's so awesome, just be prepared to keep an open mind and ask lots of questions, the officers and NCM's are more than happy to oblige.


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## PegcityNavy (10 Jun 2010)

The most test is tricky, im not gonna lie, it comes down to being able to do alot of questions with ever more info in a very short amount of time. Don't try to answer all the questions you wont be able to. They want to see how you will be able to handle stress. Maybe practice your mental math, but in short their is nothing you can do to prepare for it, you either have what it takes or you don't, its not a test you can fake your way through.

The interview isn't  bad, just be prepared for the stress of having 4 very senior people asking you questions, just be honest and answer to the best of your abilities.

If you have anymore questions PM me and ill be happy to answer them.


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## fritz (11 Jun 2010)

Today I got the call to attend the July NOAB.

Good luck


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## jacksonhuang100 (28 Jun 2010)

i will be there too~~~


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## George Wallace (3 Sep 2010)

Merge of all the "I GOT A CALL FOR the NOAB" Threads


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## tomvan60 (23 Sep 2010)

Is anyone else going to the Oct 18 2010 NOAB???


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## kartik (28 Sep 2010)

I GOT THE CALL

I am in for the NOAB Oct 18th - Oct 22nd 2010

Anyone else?


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## nerfd (28 Sep 2010)

Congrats! If the upcoming NOAB is anything like the earlier ones I've seen people talk about, you're in for an interesting, probably very enjoyable, week.


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## JMacNavy (1 Oct 2010)

I did my original MARS officer interview at my local recruitment center late August and they said everything was fine. They told me the dates of the next NOAB however I have yet to hear back from them. Is this normal? I was told the NOAB was suppose to be in September but they bumped it back. I was of the assumption they moved the date back in order to fill it.

 Any advice would be reassuring.


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## Acer Syrup (1 Oct 2010)

I highly recommend calling the CFRC every month or two to check up on your file. I like to watch for the NOAB dates on this website and make sure that they send my name to get merit listed. Example.... I called the CFRC for the July NOAB and my name had NOT been sent along... I was selected (once added to the list) and then few days later removed. Looks like I won't attending Oct either... I haven't gotten the call. Really wish I knew what my black mark was. But even after a year and half, I'll keep trying.


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## nerfd (1 Oct 2010)

I wonder how many people are merit listed for MARS/CSE/MSE in total. I know they probably won't invite everyone who is merit listed to the NOAB, but wouldn't it be a decent percentage? I would have thought more people would have reported getting their call if they had finished calling everyone who is to be invited to the Oct NOAB (meaning maybe they are still in the process!).

Of course, it could just be that I'm trying to find excuses for why I'm merit listed and haven't received a call.  ;D

Oh well. The worst case scenario is that we will go on a later NOAB, which really won't be the end of the world. I'm sure we will all get our chance.


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## generalmeng (3 Oct 2010)

The problem for us is that there might not be a later NOAB, and possible we might have to reapply again next year. For MARS, I think I was told there were 7 position available for the current NOAB.


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## JMacNavy (5 Oct 2010)

I am on the waiting list for the next NOAB, which really isn't much of a problem for me. I would have liked to get my commission before May since that would be an ideal time to do NETPO, MARS 3 and MARS 4 in a row. In the meantime I will probably go on a 2 month DEMO tasking in Gagetown.


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## saltymike (5 Oct 2010)

Hi All, 

I got the call to go to the NOAB a few weeks ago and got booked on a flight, but I have not recevied any official information about what to bring, where to go once I get off the plane in Victoria, etc.  I can kind of guess what is going to happen based on other threads in this forum, but has anyone got anything official?

Thanks in advance, 
-Mike


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## kartik (5 Oct 2010)

Mike:

I got my flight details yesterday from Edmonton. Nothing other than that. I am planning to go to the CFRC sometime next week to get any latest or last minute updates. I hear that there will be an officer in uniform at the airport luggage area. But thats what I read on threads here nothing official. But yes anyone else knows please post it here.

Also, there is another candidate with me from Edmonton. If you are a member on this forum pleas message me.

K


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## theSeaDog (14 Oct 2010)

Just got the call... Woot! Hah now how to explain this one to work. "Sorry boss, won't be in on Monday... or the rest of the week." 

The girlfriend will be even trickier...


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## Acer Syrup (15 Oct 2010)

Yah nothing like last minute, at least I'm not the only one... got home from the woods last night had a phone message and three e-mails from the CFRC waiting for me. Now I have to explain to the CIC why I have to skip out my Lieutenants Qualification Course that starts Saturday. Oh well. See yah Sunday.


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## alejo (23 Nov 2010)

So I got a call yesterday from the RC in Ottawa telling me that I had been selected for the next NOAB. I had been told before that there would be an NOAB on December 6th. What was strange is that my recruiter told me that my case was going to be different and that they would not be sending me to the NOAB in BC, but rather that I would be having a telephone interview with the Navy Officers.
I was really hoping to go to BC to have the NOAB experience, but has anyone else ever gone through a similar process? My recruiter told me she would contact me again with more information about what is happening in regards to my interview, but I was almost sure that I needed to attend an NOAB in order to be selected for the Navy?

If anybody has any info on this I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me figure this out


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## Chang (24 Nov 2010)

Hi Alejo, what occupation are you apply for? That's very lucky of you to get an offer like that so best of luck! Hopefully I'll get my call soon as well


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## alejo (25 Nov 2010)

Globemaster said:
			
		

> Hi Alejo, what occupation are you apply for? That's very lucky of you to get an offer like that so best of luck! Hopefully I'll get my call soon as well



I applied for NCSE. I got a call again from my recruiter today saying that my NOAB interview will take place next Tuesday over the phone. I really hope it goes well, even though I would have rather had a face to face interview with the Navy. But perhaps they do not have the budget to send us to BC after the previous NOAB just took place less than two months ago, or maybe the trade has more positions than applicants and they are in need of people.

One way or the other I really hope everything goes alright with my interview and I get offered the job that I have wanted my whole life


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## Mattl86 (25 Nov 2010)

Same situation here, just missed the last NOAB, having the phone interview Tuesday.  Super happy that I'm getting a shot before next year, though I'm still a little nervous about a phone interview.  I'm applying for NCSE as well.

From the schedule they emailed out it looks like these interviews are going to be pretty rapid fire.  I was expecting something more long and intense.  Either way, fingers crossed for Tuesday.


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## alejo (25 Nov 2010)

Indeed Matt. Good luck to both of us. I hope we get accepted and maybe we'll start basic at the same time.


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## alejo (1 Dec 2010)

The phone interview was extremely short. I was extremely nervous but I hope this didn't make me mess it up. I feel I could have answered better if I had the officers in front of me. I really hate not being able to see people's reaction to what I am saying.

Also the fact that I got no input at all was kind of scary. Anyone else that was interviewed yesterday had a better experience?

I was told that the results would be available within 1 to 2 weeks. This is going to be the longest week of my life!!


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## Mattl86 (2 Dec 2010)

Hey Alejo, I feel you.  My interview went about 7 minutes I think, waaay shorter than I expected.  I never got a reply to any of my answers either, though that is typical of interviews.  The problem is I'm good at reading people and I can usually tell their reaction anyway, which is impossible over the phone.  

I was a little worried that my answers were too short by how fast it went, but apparently it was like that for you as well.  I also was told a week or two by the way.  Good Luck!

PS: Any idea how many positions they have open?


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## alejo (2 Dec 2010)

Yeah man, let's wait and hopefully we both get good news next week. I did call my file manager to see if I could get information as to how many positions were available, and she said that she did not know the exact numbers, but that there were only few positions. I was kind of discouraged, but then it makes sense that they would not run a full NOAB if there were only a few spots available. 

As I said, all we can do is wait, be patient, and hope for the best!


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## kartik (3 Dec 2010)

Good Luck to Matt and Alejo

I was surprised to read about phone interviews as I know they had issues with the budget for NOAB and every time they do a NOAB they have to justify it. Guess telephone interviews if they are doing wil become a norm in later days.

From my NOAB in Oct 2011, we were told that there are very few positions for MARS for fiscal year 2010-11. MS Eng had a bit but NCSE had maximum positions. They also mentioned about more positions opening in April 2011. By the way I was on Nov 8th BMOQ but now I am moved and starting January 17th 2011 at St. Jean

I am not sure if I am allowed to tell people about the number of positions when we were told at NOAB so I am not wiritng the number here

- K


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## alejo (5 Dec 2010)

Maybe part of the reason that they did phone interviews was because of those issues you mention with the budget. To be honest I was also surprised they were doing it this way, and to be honest I would have preferred going to an actual NOAB in Victoria or Halifax. But who knows, maybe they have more positions than their current budget for NOAB permits, and that's why they might be taking this route in the future.

This week has been the longest in my life, I really want to know whether I made it into the Navy or not. I am a little worried because I felt that my interview did not go as I would have wanted. But it was probably the fact that it was too short that is really scaring me. At least I was honest in all my answers, so here I am hoping to get offered one of those available positions.

By the way guysletsdoit, this NOAB was held because there were openings for both MSE and NCSE. There were no MARS applicants that were called from what I could tell, but I could be wrong.
Anyway, thanks for the info, hope I can make it for the January BMOQ as well.


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## SK (6 Dec 2010)

I was in at the CFRC last week and was told that there has not been a date set for the next NOAB, all they knew was it will be sometime in the new year.


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## Chang (9 Dec 2010)

so any of you phone NOAB candidates got good news to share?  :nod:


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## Mattl86 (10 Dec 2010)

No, no call yet.  They said a week or two, and the way things seem to be this year that might mean three.  I am usually a pretty patient person but this wait is absolutely murdering me.  Still got my fingers crossed.


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## kartik (10 Dec 2010)

As mentioned earlier, BMOQ starts at St Jean on January 17th 2011, Flying out on Jan 15th 2011 from Edmonton. Just about 5 weeks now and its so overwhelming to close the house, snow removal contracts, shutting utilities, power of attorney and all those stuff.

BTW does anyone know how the living quarters are at St Jean

-K


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## alejo (11 Dec 2010)

No new for me either. I am not that patient to be honest, so I have called my file manager twice already. She told me that there are no results from the phone NOAB yet. 

I hope to get some good news this coming week. I was really hoping to make it for the January BMOQ, but if not, then I guess that will give me some more time to prepare. 

Let's keep our fingers crossed! I'll post as soon as I get some news!

Alejo


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## alejo (13 Dec 2010)

Today I received great news!!!

I have been accepted for NCSE, and I start my basic training on January 17th at St-Jean-sur-Richelieu.

I can't express how happy I am!!!

I hope that everyone that had the phone NOAB has the same great news as I do, and look forward to meeting many of you in January.

I have my swearing in ceremony on January 6th, here in Ottawa at the RC.

Good luck to the rest of the applicants!!

Alejandro


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## MMSS (13 Dec 2010)

Congratulations, soon-to-be Naval Cadet.


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## alejo (14 Dec 2010)

Thank you very much sir!

I'm wondering how many of us passed this short version of NOAB.


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## MMSS (14 Dec 2010)

alejo said:
			
		

> Thank you very much sir!



Thanks but don't 'sir' me yet. You're well ahead of me on this journey although I hope to be there soon.


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## Mattl86 (14 Dec 2010)

Got my call today.  After almost nine months I'm finally in.  Swearing in the 7th and starting BMOQ the 17th of January.  I am extremely happy of course, and a little freaked out at having only a month to get ready.  But hey, sitting around waiting was getting pretty boring, so at lest I've got something to focus on now.

Not sure what they really got out of the phone NOAB interview to be honest.  I think they had already made up their minds beforehand that I was in based on my CFAT score.  Probably just wanted to make sure I sounded coherent and sane, haha.

Looking forward to seeing Alejo and any others from this board there!


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## kartik (14 Dec 2010)

Congratulations to "phoney" cadets!!!!

Actually, I was thinking that if they made the phone interviews a trend instead of actual NOAB, they "may" not be getting right matches. I understand they weigh against cost and justification but I heard my a few people that I am in contact with after Oct NOAB that they were selected but eventually turned the offer down. In fact when they are conducting NOAB they need to be more diligent in selecting candidates for NOAB. This is what happens. I dont know why but it seems CF is in love with Engineers. The moment they find an engineer application, they just jump in. I really dont understand this attitude. I know engineers earn better in civilian world but even those who apply may not have proper attitude to continue. I guess some time down the line with CF I want to opt for training and then conducting these types of research so we have proper candidates go to NOAB and not have phone interviews. In fact Matt and Alejo missed the excitement even after staying focussed thats sad
In my opinion
-K


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## alejo (15 Dec 2010)

Great news Matt. Whereabouts are you coming from?
I also think that they made the selections before hand, and just wanted to make sure we had some idea of what we were getting ourselves into 

And I agree with guysletsdoit. I wish I had the opportunity to go to a proper NOAB, even though I have have visited Naval bases in the past, which gave me the security to know that it was what I wanted.
But also, I think no other trade has anything like an NOAB, and I'm pretty sure they can only accommodate a certain number of people. That doesn't help with the fact that the trade is in high demand, so they probably have more positions than what they get for their budget on NOABs.

And what you are saying about people turning offer downs makes sense with the last minutes spots that opened. In any case I do not think you will get a real experience until you are doing the Naval training itself, so it won't be until that time that many will realize they made the right choice. That's why it's important to research the trades, and make sure you know what you are getting yourself into.

In any case, I'm sure there were some more job offers besides Matt's and mine, but most people probably won't post the results.  I'm glad that some of us got the chance to make it before the new fiscal year, even though some of us probably missed the last NOAB, due to a lack of spots, or because our applications did not get in on time.


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## kartik (15 Dec 2010)

Hey,

The only intention of my post on NOAB was to make sure they really have people who can make a successdul career in Navy be given the chance of NOAB as compared to people who are mostly likely to reject the offer. I guess this can be easily determined when one goes for an interview with an officer at the Recruitment Office, the initial interview. If that officer is given proper psychological training and give proper questions, he can screen out candidates from NOAB in the initial phase there by letting eligible people go to NOAB. Eventually these people reject the offer. Secondly, not all have chance to see the base. So its overall an experience to remember and cherish. 

Anyways now that I am joining the Navy, I wil lmake the "difference". Its just a joke guys!!! Cheers

-K


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## Mattl86 (15 Dec 2010)

> I dont know why but it seems CF is in love with Engineers. The moment they find an engineer application, they just jump in. I really dont understand this attitude.


It's pretty simple.  To succeed in the forces you need to be able to handle a lot of stress and deal with demanding deadlines and workloads.  An engineering degree is one of the more stressful and demanding degrees a person can obtain.  There is no guarentees with any degree, but engineering has to be as good a starting platform as any.  Also, from what I've heard, we engineers tend to rock the CFAT.  That's 15/90 points toward our meritt scores right there, combined with the higher score for eduucation gives a pretty big score advantage.  And really, the name of the job is NCS Engineer after all.  Seems logical preference would be given to B. Eng's.

I agree it's nice to go on the full NOAB though.  But then, my whole reason for wanting to be on one was to get an offer.  Now that that's happened the whole NOAB thing is sort of trivial.

Hope to see you in January.


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## alejo (15 Dec 2010)

Couldn't have said it better Matt. Even though I don't have an Eng. degree  >, but a Bachelor of Science in Math, which is equally or harder than most Engineering degrees I would say!  ;D


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## gcclarke (15 Dec 2010)

guysletsdoit said:
			
		

> I dont know why but it seems CF is in love with Engineers. The moment they find an engineer application, they just jump in. I really dont understand this attitude. I know engineers earn better in civilian world but even those who apply may not have proper attitude to continue. I guess some time down the line with CF I want to opt for training and then conducting these types of research so we have proper candidates go to NOAB and not have phone interviews.



For NCSEOs, our current manning level of trained personnel is at 80.5% of the number of positions that we are trying to fill. Of all the officer trades, this is the 4th lowest, with only Health Services Officer, Pharmacist, and Social Worker doing worse. And of course, those are relatively small trades; The total number of people we're "missing" is 50% more than the total those three trades are "missing".

MSE is doing a bit better; better than MARS actually (88% and 85% respectively), but of course, traditionally it has just been harder to recruit qualified candidates for both the engineering trades. MARS generally doesn't have too much of a problem getting people in the door, their issues are the high number of people who wash out in training, or release soon after they are trained up.

So yeah, that's why the Navy seem to have such an obsession with engineers. As for engineers having "the proper attitude", well, to be frank, our job is not to convince a section to follow us when we storm a hill. There are many different leadership styles. Some styles that wouldn't work for, for example, our MARS brethren will be perfectly suitable for a Naval Technical Officer. Many styles that would work for our MARS brethren wouldn't work as well for us. And yes, to an extent, with being as short as we are, we have to take what'll do the job. I'm not saying that we're in the pratice of hiring incompetents, but we cannot really afford to set the bar quite as high as we might otherwise were we at full manning levels.


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## theSeaDog (15 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> It's pretty simple.  To succeed in the forces you need to be able to handle a lot of stress and deal with demanding deadlines and workloads.  An engineering degree is one of the more stressful and demanding degrees a person can obtain.



I thought I'd chime in here. It's pretty arrogant to believe it's pretty simple. The NOAB is not just to assess if you will make a good candidate for the Navy but to find if the Navy will be good for you. It sounds flaky but this is one of the most important aspects of the NOAB. Sure you might be able to handle the stresses of deadlines and workloads, but what about the stresses on your family life, time away, etc. It's easy, from the outside, to say that it'd be no problem with you but if you're on an extended ship deployment you get something like 24 minutes a WEEK of phone time to talk to your family, kids, significant other. There is internet access but it's via a shared sat uplink so bandwidth is extremely limited. There's all kinds of information that you only get at the NOAB.
It's a free for all to ask any of the serving members questions about the lifestyle. The guys serving in the sandbox can have better contact with family than the guys in the tub. 



			
				Mattl86 said:
			
		

> I agree it's nice to go on the full NOAB though.  But then, my whole reason for wanting to be on one was to get an offer.  Now that that's happened the whole NOAB thing is sort of trivial.
> 
> Hope to see you in January.


It was a week of unfettered access to information. The NOAB is there to give you an honest assessment of the Navy life. The navy suffers pretty high attrition rates because of the uniqueness of the job.


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## aesop081 (15 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> To succeed in the forces you need ............



Are you basing that on your extensive CF experience ?




> An engineering degree is one of the more stressful and demanding degrees a person can obtain.



Be that as it may, you have no idea the stress you will face in the CF and having obtained a engineering degree is no indication of how successful you will be. I have seen enough people with high-tech degrees who couldnt tie their own shoes.......


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## Chang (15 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Be that as it may, you have no idea the stress you will face in the CF and having obtained a engineering degree is no indication of how successful you will be. I have seen enough people with high-tech degrees who couldnt tie their own shoes.......



Agreed. My BMQ/SQ felt more stressful mentally then my engineering degree IMO. It's a completely different type of stress.

Congrats on the offer and good luck on your courses guys!


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## Mattl86 (16 Dec 2010)

> Be that as it may, you have no idea the stress you will face in the CF and having obtained a engineering degree is no indication of how successful you will be. I have seen enough people with high-tech degrees who couldnt tie their own shoes.......


Obviously I wasn't saying I'm ready for the stress of the CF, I don't really know what it is like until I face it.  All I said was that an engineering degree is as good a starting platform as any, because the person has shown a capability that a history major simply hasn't.  That does not mean I will succeed and a history major will fail, but it does mean the CFRC had more to go on when looking through my application.  It's the same as doing something well in Basic training.  Yes they don't completely know what you will be like when real bullets are flying, but the better you were in basic the more reason to think you will succeed in a live situation.



> Are you basing that on your extensive CF experience ?


You disagree then that CF members need to be able to handle stress and that the job is demanding?  Cause that's all I said.  Seems to me a safe assumption, even though I have no experience yet.  They keep telling me that at every stage of the process, so I'm only repeating what I have been told.  If I came off as though I was speaking from experience I apologize.  I only was stating what I assumed we all would agree on. 

Anyway, it's not really about missing the NOAB as some of the posts have implied.  All of us who missed the NOAB would have loved to be on it, and none of us wanted the phone interview.  My original point was addressing why I thought it made sense that preference was given to Engineering or Math degrees during the process.


----------



## gcclarke (16 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> Obviously I wasn't saying I'm ready for the stress of the CF, I don't really know what it is like until I face it.  All I said was that an engineering degree is as good a starting platform as any, because the person has shown a capability that a history major simply hasn't.  That does not mean I will succeed and a history major will fail, but it does mean the CFRC had more to go on when looking through my application.  It's the same as doing something well in Basic training.  Yes they don't completely know what you will be like when real bullets are flying, but the better you were in basic the more reason to think you will succeed in a live situation.



And the history major has shown capabilities that an engineering major simply has not. I'm thinking here particularly along the lines of written communication skills. And to be frank, at the end of the day, those are the types of skills that you will actually be using as an NTO on a day to day basis. Sure, engineering programs are difficult, but guess what, so are most other degrees. This "engineers rule the world" Bull honkey, in my humble opinion, does a disservice to engineering students who buy into it. Inflating their egos and having them think they're all that because they've gotten moderately decent at performing tasks that are far removed from what they will actually end up doing in the course of their future employment, while at the same time inculcating in them a distain for the types of skills that eventually will become vital for their future career progression.

This is especially the case for people who want to be engineers in the Navy. NTOs are sailors first, officers second, with engineer coming up in a distant third. You're not there to design new radars. You're there to manage the personnel who keep the stuff we have running, to provide technical advice to command, and to be able to keep calm and carry on in leading your department when things get busy (action stations, emergency stations, etc).


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## aesop081 (16 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> You disagree then that CF members need to be able to handle stress and that the job is demanding?



No. I just said that you are grossely unqualified to make an absolute stament like that. If you had said "I think that CF members have to be able......" i would have taken it differently.


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## Mattl86 (16 Dec 2010)

> No. I just said that you are grossely unqualified to make an absolute stament like that. If you had said "I think that CF members have to be able......" i would have taken it differently.


I didn't mean it as an absolute statement.  I'll take responsibility for any confusion in that regard.  I certainly don't want to come off as someone with all the answers before I even start my CF career.



> And the history major has shown capabilities that an engineering major simply has not. I'm thinking here particularly along the lines of written communication skills. And to be frank, at the end of the day, those are the types of skills that you will actually be using as an NTO on a day to day basis. Sure, engineering programs are difficult, but guess what, so are most other degrees. This "engineers rule the world" Bull honkey, in my humble opinion, does a disservice to engineering students who buy into it. Inflating their egos and having them think they're all that because they've gotten moderately decent at performing tasks that are far removed from what they will actually end up doing in the course of their future employment, while at the same time inculcating in them a distain for the types of skills that eventually will become vital for their future career progression.
> 
> This is especially the case for people who want to be engineers in the Navy. NTOs are sailors first, officers second, with engineer coming up in a distant third. You're not there to design new radars. You're there to manage the personnel who keep the stuff we have running, to provide technical advice to command, and to be able to keep calm and carry on in leading your department when things get busy (action stations, emergency stations, etc).


We could debate this forever.  I would point out that the written communication skills needed as an officer might more closely relate to the professional report style of writing engineers are used to, but I'm not in a position to speak on this with any authority.

Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree and it's equally obvious I do, so it's not suprising you and I disagree on it being more applicable to the NCS Engineering job than a history degree.


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## George Wallace (16 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree and it's equally obvious I do, so it's not suprising you and I disagree on it being more applicable to the NCS Engineering job than a history degree.



Wow!  Quite an  obvious example of how to make friends and keep them.   :

What is it about your having an Engineering Degree that makes you so superior and knowledgeable of written skills necessary in the military profession?


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## Nostix (16 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree



Oh wow, your foot is lodged really, really far in your mouth on this one.


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## Container (16 Dec 2010)

I remember when I was in the reserves we had this one "engineering officer" who had an engineers degree. We couldnt figure out what to do with him because he kept failing BMQ. You'd catch him wandering around without a headress because he "failed BMQ" and wasn't allowed to have one. 

Which we explained was wrong but he couldnt be made to understand. Finally, we made him wear a piece of red tape on an epaulet so that you could spot him from a distance and know not to waste your breath. I doubt he ever passed- and I doubt he is still in.

I worked with some great officers with all types of degrees eventually through the CF. And NCM's of all breeds with degrees as well. It wasnt the type of degree they had that defined the quality of officer they were. 

And by your posts I get a feeling of what kind of officer you will be as well. Hopefully the CO of whatever unit you wind up in makes you wear red tape for the benefit of the rest of us.


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## aesop081 (16 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree



Ouch !! Thats got to hurt......

On the superiority of an engineering degree, i have this to say :


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## George Wallace (16 Dec 2010)

Container said:
			
		

> I remember when I was in the reserves we had this one "engineering officer" who had an engineers degree. We couldnt figure out what to do with him because he kept failing BMQ. You'd catch him wandering around without a headress because he "failed BMQ" and wasn't allowed to have one.
> 
> Which we explained was wrong but he couldnt be made to understand. Finally, we made him wear a piece of red tape on an epaulet so that you could spot him from a distance and know not to waste your breath. I doubt he ever passed- and I doubt he is still in.
> 
> ...



Why does that old comment that "the men would follow him, not for his leadership skills, but out of curiosity" come to mind.


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## Chang (16 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree and it's equally obvious I do, so it's not suprising you and I disagree on it being more applicable to the NCS Engineering job than a history degree.



You should check before making such a statement. If I recall, gcclarke is a naval combat systems engineering officer with an engineering degree.... he might end up as one of your instructors in the future


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## kartik (16 Dec 2010)

OMG!!! This post has gone way too out of the basic thought of engineers. 

We cannot deny the fact that most engineers earn more in civilian society than CF. Hence my comment "CF is in love with engineers" It is obvious that many engineers would not want to apply if they are looking at money factor. The engineers who do apply look at adventure aspect first and hence we need to make sure we take right people to NOAB. 

I accept your argument Matt that you eventually got what you wanted but as Seadog mentioned you missed what you can expect from Navy and what Navy can give you at the end of the day. The only way is going to NOAB. Guys, engineers after 4 years of study do loose reality touch but they still make good leaders. So lets not generalize the red tape thing to all engineers. The only thing that has to be thought about through this post is how to make the system work better. Of course not change it. Especially for NTO, NOAB should take candidates in the most likely to likely range. The reason once again is that most like candidates miss NOAB to candidates who appear likely but are not sure what they want out of CF or Navy. I understand that it is discriminatory to screen candidates out based on age but come on guys understand the fact that a younger candidate if nurtured properly is likely to survive than an older guy coz he has more number of years to put in. It is basic cost analysis. Think this from economics point. We are no more in the WWII era of patriotism etc.. For me and I am sure for many CF is another way of life and career as looked parallel to civilian and I have met manay officers who think on same lines. 

- K


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## George Wallace (16 Dec 2010)

guysletsdoit said:
			
		

> OMG!!! This post has gone way too out of the basic thought of engineers.
> 
> We cannot deny the fact that most engineers earn more in civilian society than CF. Hence my comment "CF is in love with engineers" It is obvious that many engineers would not want to apply if they are looking at money factor. The engineers who do apply look at adventure aspect first and hence we need to make sure we take right people to NOAB.
> 
> ...



 ???   Huh?  Is English your second language?


----------



## kartik (16 Dec 2010)

Yes I never learnt English. Still I am going to be an officer with Canadian Navy. Any problems?


----------



## aesop081 (16 Dec 2010)

guysletsdoit said:
			
		

> Any problems?



Nothing major, just work on you language skills. I had to read you post a few times so that it would _start_ making sense.


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## George Wallace (16 Dec 2010)

Well.  I honestly found your post incomprehensible.  It was almost gibberish.  I do find it amusing that you think an Engineering Degree makes one a good leader.  I can categorically tell you right now that a 'framed piece of paper' on the wall does not a leader make, even if it is an Engineering Degree.  It only proves that one had the tenacity to stay in college or university for a long enough period of time to get that 'piece of paper'.  Nothing more.


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## kartik (16 Dec 2010)

Thank you for your advice CDN Aviator, will definitely make an effort to polish language skills.

George, with due respect, I am sure that framed piece of paper earns more money that any other piece of paper. average pay in Alberta - newly graduated engineer,registered as Engineer In Training with APEGGA - around $60,000. 

I am sorry if my posts are not making sense but I still stick to my view about engineers that they do make good leaders. Agreed that NTO will never be Chief of Naval Staff, still you cannot put "red tape" on all engineers.


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## George Wallace (16 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Nothing major, just work on you language skills. I had to read you post a few times so that it would _start_ making sense.



As CDN Aviator says, work on your language skills.  Posting here will no doubt help to further develop those skills (if we get picky with you).  One trick is to stop before you hit post and read aloud what you are going to post.  If it sounds like the way that you would talk normally in conversation, then you are ninety per cent of the way there.  Spell Check helps, but the more you write and speak the better you will get.

We all have a lot to learn, and even then we sometimes run into things that just seem odd.  The other day I wrote "behaviour" in something that I was writing and it just didn't look right.  I used a couple of different Spell Check programs and I had indeed spelled it correctly, but it still did not look quite right.  It happens to all of us.  Practice helps.

I do think that you may have an opinion of that 'piece of paper' that may be a bit flawed.  There are people with similar pieces of paper who are making a living driving cabs, and you will find that NOT all of the people who may be accepted to this program, even with all of their Degrees and 'education', are going to be successful in becoming officers.


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## kartik (16 Dec 2010)

Thank you and please don't get picky on me. Just think I am writing to improve my writing skills.

Possibly yes. I have spent 4 years in University and then going through the affiliation process with APEGGA which was another 2 years. Being a foreign graduate I had to compete( I mean it "compete) to get work that will earn me a living equivalent to Canadian graduate. I feel proud of that piece of paper.

Rest assured when I graduate from BMOQ, I will make sure that CF also feels proud of my engineering skills.


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## George Wallace (16 Dec 2010)

guysletsdoit said:
			
		

> ..... I feel proud of that piece of paper.



Everyone who has worked towards one or more of those 'pieces of paper' is proud of it (them).  

In the CF, you will earn many more.  All well worth being proud of.












That is why many of us have "I Love Me Walls".       ;D


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## Mattl86 (17 Dec 2010)

> You should check before making such a statement. If I recall, gcclarke is a naval combat systems engineering officer with an engineering degree.... he might end up as one of your instructors in the future


Well, that's embarrassing for me then.  I did not mean it was obvious he had a degree other than engineering because he was stupid or something, I just assumed that by the way he was speaking of an engineering degree he had a different degree he considered superior.  Again, I'm sorry for the confusion.

I've said a lot of things in this thread that were read differently than I meant them, so let me clarify my position:  I don't think engineers are smarter or better people.  I do think they are more prepared to enter an engineering job in the Navy than other people are.  And yes, I'm pretty defensive about this, because I worked hard for that degree and the thought that engineering jobs that I or others like me could apply for would be given to non engineers does bother me in principle.  It's about the same in any skilled trade or profession.  I'd hate to see medical jobs given to engineers (drastic example, but sort of conveys my feelings).  

As a matter of fact, I don't really consider myself the most qualified for this job, because my engineering discipline isn't as closely related to the job as it could be.  So in that sense, I'm not being unfair; I think engineers should get preference in the process, but I also know for sure other engineering degrees were given preference over mine, and as much as that might not have been what I wanted I have to see the logic in it.



> Everyone who has worked towards one or more of those 'pieces of paper' is proud of it (them).
> 
> In the CF, you will earn many more.  All well worth being proud of


Which is why I should have probably just kept my mouth shut.  There's bound to be people out there reading this forum with just about every degree available.  All proud of their own achievements.  Makes this a touchy subject.

To be honest, I didn't know before this topic the CF accepted NCS Eng's who had anything other than an engineering, math, or science degree, so I didn't expect to ruffle any feathers.  An oversight on my part.  Oh well.

EDIT: GW, I sent you a PM regarding this subject, partly to clarify things, partly because I'd rather this was my last post on the subject as I've helped move this off topic.


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## Ridgeline (17 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> the thought that engineering jobs that I or others like me could apply for would be given to non engineers does bother me in principle.  It's about the same in any skilled trade or profession.  I'd hate to see medical jobs given to engineers (drastic example, but sort of conveys my feelings).



Actually ... Last time I checked .. which was today... I was told you cannot enter engineering trades without an engineering or some science degree ... which I feel both are the "same" or just as hard.  I assume 4th year bio chemistry would not be the easiest for you?  just a thought ... 

I can see a difference between a BA and a BSC or engineering ... obviously there are differences, however, I myself who has a BA in history would contend that history is indeed the hardest degree to get ...

Obviously any degree you get is important, and I don't think that just because one man has a science or engineering degree means in any way that he or she is Superior to anyone who chooses a BA ... Trust me I know engineers who have their masters who could not find their way out of a balloon... A degree is a degree ... all degrees are all hard to obtain, and they each deserve the same amount of respect.

My wife has her MArch ... but she doesn't think any less of me for studying Nazi's or military history ... 

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but an engineering degree is not the be all end all ... it's a degree, and it lets you do specific jobs ... congrats for getting it , however, do not assume that makes you any better then anyone , even if they do not have a degree

just my two cents


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## Mattl86 (17 Dec 2010)

> I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but an engineering degree is not the be all end all ... it's a degree, and it lets you do specific jobs ... congrats for getting it , however, do not assume that makes you any better then anyone , even if they do not have a degree


You are completely right of course.  My brother is doing a BA in History actually.  Makes him no less of a person than me, though it certainly opens up a different set of job opportunities.

More on topic, is there anyone out there still in the application process waiting on a NOAB?  Have the been informed which wau the next NOAB will be conducted, phone or full NOAB?  My recruiter said there was a chance this phone interview might become standard.


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## theSeaDog (17 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> I've said a lot of things in this thread that were read differently than I meant them, so let me clarify my position:  I don't think engineers are smarter or better people.  I do think they are more prepared to enter an engineering job in the Navy than other people are.  And yes, I'm pretty defensive about this, because I worked hard for that degree and the thought that engineering jobs that I or others like me could apply for would be given to non engineers does bother me in principle.



In my opinion, people on this board tend to make sport out of attacking unqualified statements. Not that they are wrong, but it tends to lead threads downhill. I say you are making an unqualified statement because you are making assumptions about what the job requires before you even know. For the NCSE position, they accept several engineering degrees as the preferred degree, as well as some science as acceptable degrees. Most of what you need to know to perform this job.... they teach you. It's years of training before you're "qualified" as an NSCE. I believe there are a few courses during the engineering phase training that Electrical engineers don't have to do, but other than that, be prepared to adjust your assumptions. There are technical aspects to this position, but you're not going to be Scotty; the majority of the post is administrative, managerial type duties. 

A degree is a piece of paper regardless of what is written there; certainly, it's still something to be proud of. The fallacy of the recent undergrad is to assume their degree makes them automatically qualified in their chosen field. When I was assisting my last company in recruiting the manager told me, "I don't care what their degree is. All it tells me is they can learn, and they can apply themselves." In the end we chose a guy that had no degree, 5 years of experience and was a self taught programmer over one guy that had a B.Eng in software engineering and a 4.0 average. 

Be proud, but don't be arrogant. In the face of experience, a degree is a piece of paper. 

As an aside, I was Computer Science; while I was at university, we thought we were better than everyone - except physics, but we viewed ourselves as on par with them.


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## gcclarke (17 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> I didn't mean it as an absolute statement.  I'll take responsibility for any confusion in that regard.  I certainly don't want to come off as someone with all the answers before I even start my CF career.
> We could debate this forever.  I would point out that the written communication skills needed as an officer might more closely relate to the professional report style of writing engineers are used to, but I'm not in a position to speak on this with any authority.
> 
> Anyway, it's obvious you don't have an engineering degree and it's equally obvious I do, so it's not suprising you and I disagree on it being more applicable to the NCS Engineering job than a history degree.



Just for the record, I graduated in 2004 with a BSc in Mechanical Engineering from the University of Calgary, and am currently serving as the Assistant Combat Systems Engineering Officer aboard Her Majesty's Canadian Ship VANCOUVER. So, suffice it to say I have a rough idea both of the skills required to be a Naval Engineer, and what it takes to make it through an engineering degree. 

The post you were responding to when you decided to go ahead and make completely unwarranted assumptions wasn't me trying to say that people with non-engineers would make better engineering officers. It was my attempt to dispell the notion that the mere fact that someone is able to get through an engineering degree makes them: A) Smarter; B) Better equipped to handle stress; C) Harder working; or D) Better at the job of an NTO; compared to their non-engineering brethren. 

I will say that I think that having an engineering degree makes it either more likely that someone would be able to successfully complete their training and become trade qualified, or at least make it easier for the person. For CSEs at least, I think a very large part of this would be because both engineering and our ashore training are very math intensive. At least on my course, the ones who struggled the most were those who came from non-engineering backgrounds. Our course is basically an 8 month crash course in electrical engineering; I can see how it would be difficult to do that while attempting to teach yourself calculus and differential equations at the same time. I can't really say what the case may be for the MSE side of the house.

However, that having been said, once they do get trained up, those with Math or Comp Sci or Geophysics degrees or whatever else is on the "acceptable degree" list can certainly make perfectly competent engineering officers.


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## alejo (17 Dec 2010)

It`s sad how some underestimate the value of a degree. If finishing university was so easy, then how come not everyone has done it?

I know that comparing military life to university life is not possible, but in general, someone with a university degree is better prepared than someone without it. If this wasn't the case, then I would see no logic in requiring a university degree to become an officer. This happens also in most government jobs, where a university degree is required to be even able to apply.

Now as to some degrees being harder than others, there is really no way of knowing, unless you have multiple degrees. What I do notice is that people in humanities and social sciences usually have more free time than people doing pure sciences, especially chemistry and physics. This is perhaps due to the fact that most of the science degrees take a lot of the student's time doing labs.

In any case, I do not mean to add more fuel to the fire, but I just wanted to make my case on the importance of going to university and getting a degree. It is definitely more than a piece of paper. In fact, I could care less about that piece of paper, since I don't even hang it on my wall. But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.


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## Ridgeline (17 Dec 2010)

alejo said:
			
		

> What I do notice is that people in humanities and social sciences usually have more free time than people doing pure sciences, especially chemistry and physics. This is perhaps due to the fact that most of the science degrees take a lot of the student's time doing labs.



Good Point,  My friends with Science degrees never went to the pub as often as us History majors did


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## forgiven (17 Dec 2010)

alejo said:
			
		

> It is definitely more than a piece of paper. In fact, I could care less about that piece of paper, since I don't even hang it on my wall. But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.



Agree.  The treasure does not lie in that piece of paper, but in the journey itself.

Peace everyone!


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## theSeaDog (17 Dec 2010)

alejo said:
			
		

> It`s sad how some underestimate the value of a degree. If finishing university was so easy, then how come not everyone has done it?
> 
> I know that comparing military life to university life is not possible, but in general, someone with a university degree is better prepared than someone without it. If this wasn't the case, then I would see no logic in requiring a university degree to become an officer. This happens also in most government jobs, where a university degree is required to be even able to apply.



I'd say cost is the reason not everyone has done it. That, and perhaps personal interest and learning style. However you cannot assume that it makes you better or more capable than someone.

It doesn't mean you are better prepared, it means you meet a standard. Someone without the degree (say a serving NCM) could easily be better prepared for it than you. It's all good. Hubris lasts until the Chiefs get a hold of ya 

An engineer gets a bit more practical experience while attending university, but you have to consider that to even become a Professional Engineer requires at least a two-four year post grad internship. 

University gives you a good base within your field. You learn the "basics" from which you can further grow your knowledge of the field. You said it correctly later in your post:


			
				alejo said:
			
		

> But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.


There's the real value of university. It extends to most degrees.


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## George Wallace (17 Dec 2010)

alejo said:
			
		

> It`s sad how some underestimate the value of a degree. If finishing university was so easy, then how come not everyone has done it?



I think that a reply earlier by theSeaDog would have corrected your preception, but I guess not.  You'll mature some day and understand what he was saying.  Funny thing that.....maturity.




			
				alejo said:
			
		

> I know that comparing military life to university life is not possible, but in general, someone with a university degree is better prepared than someone without it. If this wasn't the case, then I would see no logic in requiring a university degree to become an officer. This happens also in most government jobs, where a university degree is required to be even able to apply.



I disagree with this tendency of Government, that was 'forced' on the DND and the CF by our political masters who worship pieces of paper framed up on walls above their desks to prove to the world that they are superior.  It is a false concept.  I will not get into the incompetence we see in some of our senior bureaucrats who have numerous pieces of paper framed and hanging on walls above their desks in all levels of government, and focus on one thing, the CF.  A Degree does not make you a Leader.  Just because you hold a Degree does no mean that you have the qualities required to be an officer in the CF.  Many of you smart arses are going to FAIL on you Basic courses, or later on your Trades Courses.   A Degree is not going to guarantee you a PASS.  There are many others who are now disenfranchised from becoming officers, who have natural leadership and people skills because they do not have a Degree.  They will now have to struggle through the Education System and get a Degree if they do want to become an officer, where before they would have already been climbing up through the officer ranks.  The CF may face the loss of many excellent Leaders due to these knee jerk decisions made by the Chrétien government to justify some concept they had about what our officer Corps should be.




			
				alejo said:
			
		

> Now as to some degrees being harder than others, there is really no way of knowing, unless you have multiple degrees. What I do notice is that people in humanities and social sciences usually have more free time than people doing pure sciences, especially chemistry and physics. This is perhaps due to the fact that most of the science degrees take a lot of the student's time doing labs.



Or perhaps you were not as smart, or perhaps have as high an IQ, as they.  Who knows?  (Although I would tend to agree with you........Wait!  No I don't.  The Engineer faculty were the biggest party animals at my university and every university I visited.)




			
				alejo said:
			
		

> In any case, I do not mean to add more fuel to the fire, but I just wanted to make my case on the importance of going to university and getting a degree. It is definitely more than a piece of paper. In fact, I could care less about that piece of paper, since I don't even hang it on my wall. But the reasoning, analytical, research, and many other skills that I acquired, have surely given me some great tools that will help me in the future of my career.



Then why did you get me in the mood to rant over your opening statement, if you really don't care.  In the end, as theSeaDog says, don't let the falacy that your Degree is somehow superior to what others may have, as it really means very little when the CF will be teaching you all you need to know about your future Trade.  Nothing in your previous education will have prepared you for this, other than some good study habits, good communication skills (now a lost art at most institutions of higher learning today), .......and that is about it.


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## aesop081 (17 Dec 2010)

*cough* NOAB *cough*


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## alejo (17 Dec 2010)

Why so much anger in some of the posts?




			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> I disagree with this tendency of Government, that was 'forced' on the DND and the CF by our political masters who worship pieces of paper framed up on walls above their desks to prove to the world that they are superior.  It is a false concept.  I will not get into the incompetence we see in some of our senior bureaucrats who have numerous pieces of paper framed and hanging on walls above their desks in all levels of government, and focus on one thing, the CF.  A Degree does not make you a Leader.  Just because you hold a Degree does no mean that you have the qualities required to be an officer in the CF.  Many of you smart arses are going to FAIL on you Basic courses, or later on your Trades Courses.   A Degree is not going to guarantee you a PASS.  There are many others who are now disenfranchised from becoming officers, who have natural leadership and people skills because they do not have a Degree.  They will now have to struggle through the Education System and get a Degree if they do want to become an officer, where before they would have already been climbing up through the officer ranks.  The CF may face the loss of many excellent Leaders due to these knee jerk decisions made by the Chrétien government to justify some concept they had about what our officer Corps should be.



I never claimed that having a degree makes someone superior, or a better leader, or anything like that. Heck, I didn't even mention my degree, which I don't feel is the hardest to get at all. Anyone with good study habits will surely graduate from math. It helps to like the subject as well.

All I was saying is that having a degree is more than just getting a piece of paper. It is an experience that should not be underestimated!!

Research gives you the reason though, as statistically speaking, there has not been any evidence showing that higher education leads to better job performance. So I'm guessing there are some other hidden reasons that our "political masters" have behind "forcing" those decisions. 




			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Or perhaps you were not as smart, or perhaps have as high an IQ, as they.  Who knows?  (Although I would tend to agree with you........Wait!  No I don't.  The Engineer faculty were the biggest party animals at my university and every university I visited.)



I made no mention of engineering in my post at all!! So I don't know what you are talking about! 



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Then why did you get me in the mood to rant over your opening statement, if you really don't care.  In the end, as theSeaDog says, don't let the falacy that your Degree is somehow superior to what others may have, as it really means very little when the CF will be teaching you all you need to know about your future Trade.  Nothing in your previous education will have prepared you for this, other than some good study habits, good communication skills (now a lost art at most institutions of higher learning today), .......and that is about it.



Just like you defend your position that a degree is just a piece of paper, I felt the need to defend mine that it is not. I think everyone has the right to express, and defend their beliefs right?
I will take advice from you, since you are an experienced CF member, and go assuming that nothing I know will prepare me for what is to come. The only thing I know, is that despite all the hardships I encountered during my studies, I never gave up and successfully finished my degree! I will apply the same, and work as hard as I can, and never give up in the CF as well!

That was the best that I got out of my university degree!


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## George Wallace (17 Dec 2010)

Can I correct you on this?



			
				alejo said:
			
		

> I never claimed that having a degree makes someone superior, or a better leader, or anything like that.



I didn't quite refer to it the way you are, but in the final analysis, I guess I did.  If you have to deal with any of these guys, they do think along those lines.  




			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yada Yada Yada............ by our political masters who worship pieces of paper framed up on walls above their desks to prove to the world that they are superior.


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## George Wallace (17 Dec 2010)

We had quite a good debate on the matter of the Government making the decision that "the CF would require all officers to have a Degree" a few years back.  It was indeed a knee jerk reaction by the Chrétien Government to an incident where a CF officer who did not hold a Degree from any university was involved, and the Chrétien Government basically hung him out to dry.  I can not remember the incident at this moment, but it was the introduction of this fallacy that his having a Degree would/may have prevented the event from occurring in the manner it did.


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## alejo (17 Dec 2010)

I'm sure it was an interesting debate. 

There is obviously more to being a leader than just holding a degree. And as you have said, a lot of good candidates are being ignored because of this education requirement, which is completely unfair!

Maybe things will change in the future, who knows, but whatever happens, let's hope is for the best interest of the CF.

Enough said!


Now back to topic please!


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## alejo (17 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> My recruiter said there was a chance this phone interview might become standard.



While I am happy that I was selected without a need to go to an actual NOAB, I think that removing them completely will take off some of the essence of the selection system for the Navy. I would have love going to Esquimalt, but hey, not everything goes the way you plan it.

At least I have had experience with life at sea before, so I am assuming I know a little bit (very little) of what it will be like. However, many candidates might be faced with a lot of surprises when the NETP starts. Maybe I am wrong!

I am assuming that either the need to hire candidates is so high, that they will try to get as many people in as possible, or perhaps there is not enough budget to hold these NOABs anymore? Maybe a little bit of both?

I am also wondering how many of us were hired using this phone method. If two out of two posters (Matt and I) were selected, then maybe most of the other applicants were successful as well!


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## kartik (17 Dec 2010)

Whether people on this forum agree or not, this trend of calling candidates and offering positions is not going to help CF in long run. Agreed that CF requires people but this is no way getting people on board. CF is not any other company where you get a phone call. The society is assuming unlimited liability of all the members of CF and if they make 1 mistake, entire society suffers. As discussed in this thread about leadership qualities, I am sure even the CF recruiters will agree that phone interview is not the way selecting a leader. Everytime Navy has to hold NOAB, they have to justify the cost. My agrument is CF is spending more money by sending a candidate to BMOQ. In case the candidate is put on Warrior Platoon then additional 3 months of cost. That seems to be justified. This is no way selecting leader. The process should start at the recruitment center. There should be psychological testing, leadership testing etc.. done before an actual phone interview(If they want to make this a trend). In my opinion, even the NOAB does not get proper candidates. I am sorry for being opiniated here, but during my NOAB, people who shouldnt be selected were given a go ahead. Whatever. I have mentioned this in previous post and I am writing this again, there needs to be a complete overhauling of recruitment process if CF wants "quality" leaders. 

Ok, I am not mentioning about degree and non degree here. It should be holistic


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## George Wallace (17 Dec 2010)

guysletsdoit

The Recruiting System gets its orders to recruit a certain number of persons for a certain number of positions decided upon by the various Trades/Branches/Corps/etc. in the whole CF.  Their job is to Recruit.  That is all.  Once a prospective CF member has been recruited they upon enrollment are now in the care of the Training System.  The Recruiting and the Training Systems are two completely different systems and are in no way related.  One is tasked with bringing people in, nothing more.  The other is tasked with training those who have been enrolled.  From there the new members are then sent off to do their actual Trades training, which for most means that they now are in a totally new 'system' with totally different policies.  

The various 'systems' often do not mesh very well with each other.  If they did, we wouldn't see such backlogs in training across the spectrum of the CF.

The fact that some people are being selected over the phone, may be a result of someone trying to streamline the selection process.  The unfortunate thing is, if the Training System is not prepared to take them, this streamlining is all for naught.


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## kartik (17 Dec 2010)

George:

My vent was not against any one system. What I am trying to put together is that the recruitment system and the BMOQ(just BMOQ) should work together. I am sure if a candidate is not CF material he will be rejected from BMOQ and will not proceed further. If these 2 systems work in unison, we might see different results. That will justify the cost factor as there wont be many warrior platoons etc..In fact this will have enough time to the other training systems to adjust to the influx of officers from BMOQ. This phone interview thing and to certain extent NOAB too, is not a sound system. No doubt NOAB has given good results but in my opinion does not consider certain qualities required for leadership role. Given the time, CF should be very selective in getting candidates. I say this to all and I will say here "I have 300 sailors ready to drop their pants off at my command" This is what I mean by leadership. I dont have many words to express what I am trying to say but I am sure people are smart enough to understand the meaning


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## Olexa (19 Dec 2010)

Mattl86 said:
			
		

> More on topic, is there anyone out there still in the application process waiting on a NOAB?  Have the been informed which wau the next NOAB will be conducted, phone or full NOAB?  My recruiter said there was a chance this phone interview might become standard.



Yes, I am.  In November, my File Manager informed me that the Navy had decided against holding another NOAB in December. I was also told that unlike engineers MARS applicants must go through a NOAB to be selected and that the next NOAB is going to take place in March/April 2011.


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