# Lanyards- which side is battle honour/dishonour?



## garynye

Hello all!

Can someone enlighten me to the correct protocol in regards to the position of lanyards?  Is it an honour or dishonour to be wearing it on the left or right shoulder?

Curious,

Gazza
TCCCS/Comms Guy


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## Michael Dorosh

Every unit at one time was allowed to pick its own colour and pattern of lanyard.  This practice began in World War Two, though some units may have worn coloured lanyards earlier than that.   (Don‘t confuse these with the khaki or white lanyards that were issued to men armed with pistols or equipped with whistles - they are not necessarily the same thing.)  See my website at http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Main_Page  [Web link updated 17 Feb 2006]

Click on the Uniforms link, then the WW II Lanyards link for examples.

There is no such thing as a Battle Dishonour.  

There is no such thing as a Battle Honour when it come to uniforms, either.  Some units have special distinctions, like the oak leaf badge, the red hackle, or the PUC (see my page on Special Distinctions, also under the uniform section).

The Royal Canadian Artillery wear a white lanyard on the right sleeve by tradition.  (Note on my page that in WW II at least a few batteries picked colours other than white).  Other units used to wear coloured lanyards (either a whistle lanyard for officers, or a clasp knife lanyard for Other Ranks) simply as a means to dress up the Battle Dress.  The Royal Winnipeg Rifles wore a black lanyard on the right shoulder, for example, the Royal Regiment of Canada wore a wine and blue coloured lanyard on the left.

Today, it does not matter since lanyards don‘t appear to be worn by many units anymore.  I saw a modern day Winnipeg Rifleman wearing a black lanyard, but all others I have seen were the standard combat green model, usually worn by officers.  Our RCR (JRMACDONALD, actually) RSS WO used to wear a khaki one in his combats - I presume this was a regimental pattern lanyard - it looked identical to WW II dated lanyards in collections I‘ve seen.

I presume the RCA still wear white lanyards on the right shoulder when in CFs (I haven‘t seen anybody wearing one in combats).  That is where my dad wore his (a photo of him is on the intro page to my site).

Other than that, they don‘t seem to be worn anymore.

[ 17 May 2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]


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## RCA

The RCA doesn‘t wear lanyards with any form of dress anymore.

However there were stories in my younger days whereby the Artillery had to change sholuders for the laynard to cover a 99 yr disgrace for losing some guns in South Africa during the Boer War but redeemed itself during WW II thereby permitting us to wear the laynard on the proper shoulder. 

I wonder if there is anyone out there that can verify the history.


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## Andyboy

Guards Regiments still wear lanyards in the Guards colours on their left shoulder (in combats only) as well as a Brigade patch on their Berets.


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Andyboy:
> [qb]Guards Regiments still wear lanyards in the Guards colours on their left shoulder (in combats only) as well as a Brigade patch on their Berets.[/qb]




That‘s right, too, we had a Guardsman transfer to us a year or two ago; I remember noticing the lanyard.  

Thanks to all for the interesting info.

There is also a rumour that the notch cut in the toe of the spats worn by the Black Watch was also a "Battle Dishonour".  Can anyone address that issue?


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## JRMACDONALD

Mike D-- correct. In the RCR, any person above the rank of MCpl wears a Khaki lanyard( whistle attached!) Off the left shoulder, only in combats! (if this was a dishonour , NONE of the RSMs in my 20 years identified that!) It was just a cord to carry a whistle!!!!


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## Fishbone Jones

JR,
Is the khaki lanyard supposed to indicate having successfully completed some sort of section commander course or something along that line? just wonderin‘.


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## JRMACDONALD

RECCEGUY- neg. In The RCR, officers wearthem , as well. Its khaki because its khaki!(there must be a coupla trailer loads of em ,somewhere in Canada!)


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## Gun Shy

recceguy said:
			
		

> RCA,
> In response to your inquiry, re: white lanyards. The story goes like this, as was told to me when I was a young Dragoon, many many ... oh never mind.
> During the Boer War, at a place called Leliefontein (pronounced Lilyfontain), in South Africa. The Canadian contingent was attacked by an overwhelming force of Boer guerillas. The thrust of the attack was to capture the field pieces and ammo of the artillery to add to what was already in their hands. For one reason or another the arty abondoned their guns and pulled back. A patrol of Royal Canadian Dragoons was in the area and galloped forward to provide covering fire for the withdrawl. On seeing the guns alone and about to be captured, they went forward and towed the guns to safety, while a Sgt laid down fire with a Colt machine gun. Long story short, three VC&lsquo;s were won that day by the RCD, Lt Cockburn, Lt Turner and Sgt Holland.They saved the guns, one of which we kept in the foyer of the head shed in Pet. We officially returned this gun back to the Arty last year after 100 years. Queen Victoria gave the atry colours of red and blue to the RCD (which are still incorporated in our Regimental colours. This left the arty with a white lanyard worn on the opposite shoulder in disgrace. This is probably up now, as the 100th anniversary of Leilifontien was last year. A painting of the engagement and a write up of the VC winners can be found at http://members.home.net/webmaster5/index.html.  Go to the special pages drop menu and click on Saving of the Guns at Leilifontien. Hope this clears up some stuff for ya.



  Actually the Canadian Guns were not actually Capturped. A report that the Boers were heavuly engaing two under strength troops of Dragoons, commanded by Lt H.Z.C Cockburn, which were guarding the the left rear, brought Morrison's No.5 gun galloping acros a mile and a half of rough ground. It was quickly umlimbered and in action, the Dragoons about thrity in number, extended their line to give it protection. But less then 12 rounds were fired. Bascically the Artillery and the cavalry worked together in fine cooperation.  This is a direct quote from the Gunners of Canada Vol I by Colonel G.W.L. Nicholson CD


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## Michael OLeary

> Canadian Army Routine Orders
> No. 6868
> 
> 6th December 1946
> 
> *6868 - DRESS REGULATIONS FOR OFFICERS AND OTHER RANKS OF THE CANADIAN ARMY (PROVISIONAL) 1946*
> 
> 10. Wearing of Lanyards and Thongs:--
> 
> (a)   Whistle Lanyard--
> 
> (i)   Officers - The colour of the whistle lanyard and the method of wearing will be at the discretion of Officers Commanding Units, providing there is uniformity within the unit.
> 
> (ii)   Other ranks - Regulation issue.
> 
> (b)   Thongs - regulation issue.
> 
> (c)   Pistol lanyards - All ranks will wear the regulation issue khaki colour pistol lanyard.
> 
> (d)   Clasp Knife Lanyards - Regulation issue lanyard. Officers Commanding Units may authorize Other Ranks to wear a lanyard of the same colour as the whistle lanyards worn by unit officers.
> 
> (e)   Lanyards of colours other than khaki will not be a regulation issue.
> 
> (f)   Prior to the adoption or wear of a coloured whistle lanyard for officers or a coloured clasp knife lanyard for other ranks a sample of the lanyard will be forwarded to Army Headquarters for approval.



Sometimes a lanyard is just a lanyard, it's original purpose was simply to attach a whistle or clasp knife to the officer or soldier.

The RCR lanyard was khaki, because that was the regulation Army colour. The Regiment probably never pursued one in regimental colours.


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## Michael Dorosh

Those regs seem identical to the ones in the 1943 War Dress Regulations which formed the basis for my second book.

Many regiments never adopted their own coloured lanyards.  Calgary Highlanders never did either, though I have a neat photo taken in 1939 of D Company parading in kilts and service dress - and all the NCOs seem to have a lanyard from their second front button to their right breast pocket.  I thought only the Germans did it that way.


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## Cold Warrior

RCA said:
			
		

> The RCA doesn't wear lanyards with any form of dress anymore.
> 
> However there were stories in my younger days whereby the Artillery had to change sholuders for the laynard to cover a 99 yr disgrace for losing some guns in South Africa during the Boer War but redeemed itself during WW II thereby permitting us to wear the laynard on the proper shoulder.
> 
> I wonder if there is anyone out there that can verify the history.


Yep,, I can clarify it.  Not even a hint of truth to it.


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## Arctic Acorn

Since when were THONGS regulation issue. In 1946? 

Eeeeeeew!  ;D

 :dontpanic:
J.M.


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## Michael OLeary

Michael OLeary said:
			
		

> Sometimes a lanyard is just a lanyard, it's original purpose was simply to attach a whistle or clasp knife to the officer or soldier.
> 
> The RCR lanyard was khaki, because that was the regulation Army colour. The Regiment probably never pursued one in regimental colours.



To update and correct my previous observation, the following is from the 1947 Dress Regulations for The Royal Canadian Regiment:



> LANYARDS.
> *Officers and warrant officers will wear regimental lanyards of royal blue.* These will be worn on the left shoulder and whistle carried in the left breast pocket.
> N.C.O.'s will wear a leather whistle strap attached to the second button of the battle dress blouse, with the whistle carried in the right breast pocket. The leather strap will be polished.



And from 1953:



> 2nd Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment
> Regimental Dress Regulations - Officer
> 
> DUTY DRESS
> Normal duty dress consists of maroon beret, drab fox puttees, battle dress, brown boots, web belt with buckles, khaki shirt with with gold coloured bar, woven light coloured rope tie, and yellow brass badges of rank. *A blue whistle lanyard is worn with whistle attached.* The lanyard is worn on the left shoulder and enters the left pocket between the pocket button and the shoulder.



Also from 1953:



> Standing Orders
> 2nd Battalion The Royal Canadian Regiment
> Dress Regulations for Men
> 
> Lanyards
> *Regimental lanyards will be worn with battle dress and Tropical Worsted when on parade or duty; by WOs and Snr NCOs.* The lanyard will be worn on the right shoulder under the shoulder strap. The upper loop coming from back to front under the arm with the loop at the opening of the pocket and pointing upwards. Lanyard to be drawn tight and remainder to be tucked inro the right breast pocket.


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## GerryCan

Sometimes I wish we still wore the lanyard. A lot of people thought they were a nuisance that got in the way( I know a few guys that had them caught on vehicles and such), but they looked pretty sharp.

Then again...they may not look as good on Cadpat. Do any units still wear lanyards with the new Cadpat uniforms, and if so how are they attached, seeing that we used to wear them through the left eppaulette around the arm and into the left pocket, I'm not sure as to how this would work with the new uniforms.


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## 48Highlander

It would work the same way, except you'd put it through the velcro flag thingy instead of the eppaulette.  Haven't seen anyone do it though.


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## SHARP WO

Lanyards are nice, but I would rather say whistle cord, and that way you do not bother certain people form certain places.

SHARP WO


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## Observer23

Ref: _I presume the RCA still wear white lanyards on the right shoulder when in CFs (I haven't seen anybody wearing one in combats).  That is where my dad wore his (a photo of him is on the intro page to my site)._
Gunners stopped wearing the white lanyard in the 70s.  Nowadays it is simply used to secure the prismatic compass to the uniform(FD).  The practice (I am guessing for nonostalgiaeasons) is the lanyard is worn on the right


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## George Wallace

SHARP WO

Who would take offence?  We in the Armour Corps wore lanyards.  In fact I have pictures of RCD Troopers wearing both a RCD and Arty lanyard on their Battle Dress at the same time.  By the way, isn't it for holding your 'Church Key' from getting lost or stolen?

 ;D

Gw


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## SHARP WO

G Wallace,

During the mid 90's, some members of the RCR would take offense to reserve NCO's wearing the lanyard, that is why we use to say it was a whistle cord.

Sharp WO


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## Michael Dorosh

SHARP WO said:
			
		

> G Wallace,
> 
> During the mid 90's, some members of the RCR would take offense to reserve NCO's wearing the lanyard, that is why we use to say it was a whistle cord.
> 
> Sharp WO



The regulations in WW II actually specified that the cord was attached to a whistle for officers, and a clasp knife for Other Ranks.  How things change...


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## George Wallace

SHARP WO said:
			
		

> G Wallace,
> 
> During the mid 90's, some members of the RCR would take offense to reserve NCO's wearing the lanyard, that is why we use to say it was a whistle cord.
> 
> Sharp WO



And since time immoral members of the RCD have taken offense to being referred to as Reservists.

GW


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## the 48th regulator

SHARP WO said:
			
		

> G Wallace,
> 
> During the mid 90's, some members of the RCR would take offense to reserve NCO's wearing the lanyard, that is why we use to say it was a whistle cord.
> 
> Sharp WO



I'll say, even after I was given one at the end of my tour with them, and put in the first battalion history books, I wiould still get some characters try to correct me.   In the end all was well when we went up to the mess.   Except I even had one MCPL Call the unit to complain and correct me, hehe it was hilarious because they too used the whistle cord expression to get him off the phone.   

God bless 'em, "Do or die" I guess.

tess


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## Recce41

To all
 The gunners did loose their guns. It was the RCR that fired them a I believe at Paardeberg when the Gunners left, that is why the Royals have a Lanyard of white. As for the Dragoons,  George! They have the colours of Canadian Regts. ie Arty, Engs, RCD. But we have the gold for "The Royal" desination. I have two RCD lanyards and they are Scarlet,Gold,Blue. We havea lanyard from 1900;  Komati River, South Africa(Leliefontein)  (Safeing of the Guns!). 
 As for which side, it has been Officers Left, NCOs Right. I have a few pictures of this. 
 As for loosing their guns, that is why D Bty had always served us for Leliefontein. And had to pull their gun on parade. The first one back in Canada 87. The fellas from D Bty did all the duties for a week and the mess dinners and the all ranks dance.
 :evil: :tank:


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## George Wallace

Recce 41

You've lost me.   Scarlet, Gold and Blue are the Regimental colours and those are the colours used in the RCD lanyard.   Yes, officers and ORs wore their lanyards on different sides at various time of our history, but I believe in the end all wore the lanyard on the same side.   

Stories of the 'lost Guns' are told over and over and in one story it is in South Africa and in an other it is in WW I.   As for D Bty always serving us for Leliefontein being a result of that, it is most likely fiction.   D Bty was not in Germany and the RCHA still participated in those activities.   It was a mutual agreement between the Regiments to do each others duties and free the members of their Regiments to partake in Regimental celebrations.   The RCHA would do the duties for the RCD during Leliefontein and the RCD would reciprocate and do the duties for the RCHA during St Barbara's Day celebrations.

GW


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## Michael OLeary

Recce41 said:
			
		

> To all
> The gunners did loose their guns. It was the RCR that fired them a I believe at Paardeberg when the Gunners left, that is why the Royals have a Lanyard of white.



We have discussed and dismissed this issue more than once. There is no support for this myth in any of the RCR histories that I have read. Please provide a concrete reference.


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## pbi

> They have the colours of Canadian Regts. ie Arty, Engs, RCD. But we have the gold for "The Royal" desination.



Actually, I think Canadian Regts have more colours than just those: for example in the PPCLI we have French Grey. And, if I'm not mistaken, in the Commonwealth system Royal Blue is actually the facing colour for "Royal" Regiments, not gold. IE: RCR, RCA, CME, R22eR, RRegtC, etc.   

Also, I would really like to see proof that ANY Canadian Regiment, Branch, or Corps actually preserves _any_ item of dress, tradition or practice that is intended as a "dishonour". I keep hearing this stuff, but I have yet to see any proof. Why would anybody bother preserving an embarassment? The only case of this I have ever heard of, and I can't recall the unit now, was that of a British Regt that, during Wellington's Peninsular Campaign, broke into a convent and pillaged and raped. The sentence (IIRC) passed by the War Office was that the Regt'l band, in perpetuity, was to play hymns at sunset each day. Other than that I'm not aware of a substantiated example.

Cheers.


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## Michael Dorosh

pbi said:
			
		

> Actually, I think Canadian Regts have more colours than just those: for example in the PPCLI we have French Grey. And, if I'm not mistaken, in the Commonwealth system Royal Blue is actually the facing colour for "Royal" Regiments, not gold. IE: RCR, RCA, CME, R22eR, RRegtC, etc.
> 
> Also, I would really like to see proof that ANY Canadian Regiment, Branch, or Corps actually preserves _any_ item of dress, tradition or practice that is intended as a "dishonour". I keep hearing this stuff, but I have yet to see any proof. Why would anybody bother preserving an embarassment? The only case of this I have ever heard of, and I can't recall the unit now, was that of a British Regt that, during Wellington's Peninsular Campaign, broke into a convent and pillaged and raped. The sentence (IIRC) passed by the War Office was that the Regt'l band, in perpetuity, was to play hymns at sunset each day. Other than that I'm not aware of a substantiated example.
> 
> Cheers.



The same story is told of the "notch' cut out of the Black Watch spats.  They definitely wear a different pattern.  When the Regular Force battalions were disbanded, the kit was disbursed to other units "in the system".  I've seen Cameron Highlanders wering the notched spats, for example, probably unaware of the "dishonour" connotations...


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## pbi

> The same story is told of the "notch' cut out of the Black Watch spats.  They definitely wear a different pattern.  When the Regular Force battalions were disbanded, the kit was disbursed to other units "in the system".  I've seen Cameron Highlanders wering the notched spats, for example, probably unaware of the "dishonour" connotations



Ok, seen, but I think my question stands. Where is there one  documented case in our Army of an institutionalized dishonour? Cheers.


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## Recce41

George
 If you look at the Eng, Arty, RCD, etc. They have Scarlet and Blue. These are the two colours given to Common Canadian Regts. Just as Scarlet and Green are Horse Regts ie LdSH/Sask Ds, not counting Royal Horse IE GGHG which is Deep red and Purple ( Deep Blue) or CMRs FGH Gold and Blk. Ex Inf Regts may have kept their Inf related colours. 
 Each Colour is to represent Metal, Colour or Cloth(furs). These go back to Coat of Arms. Ie Red means Fortitude and Blue means Loyalty. There are also colour president.   ie Red over Blue. or Blue over Red. You may never see Green over Blue or Blue over Green. Gold is for Valour. Which is given to Royal Regts. Royal Blue is a French thing. 
 These colours are also from the uniform colours. Colour with uniform facing. ie the Blues Blue with Red Facing, ie GGHG and the Royal Dragoons (1st Dragoons) Red with Blue Facing. ie the RCD. British/Canadian Arty wore Blue with Red and Engs (Sappers) were Red with Blue. Rifle Regts were Green with Blk. Non Royal Horse and Non Regt of Foot Inf wore Red with Green
 In other Countries ie France they were Royal Blue with Red. Austria were White with Royal Blue or Red. Russian wre Green with Red. 

I got most of this info from some of the books I have.   Plus I'm a history buff. 

As for D Bty, They did start to serve us in Petawawa until 92. And remember why they pull the cannon. There are also take offs of our British Brothern. Cut spats, The Walsh with their Blk ribbon. etc.


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## Michael Dorosh

pbi said:
			
		

> Ok, seen, but I think my question stands. Where is there one  documented case in our Army of an institutionalized dishonour? Cheers.



Oh, I quite agree; I meant to say that the notched spat has not been proven to my satisfaction either, just another example of these kinds of myth being perpetuated.  

I am quite surprised you haven't mentioned the chicken yet, PBI, given your regimental affiliation...


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## George Wallace

Recce 41

Yes the various Regiments may have the same colours in their Coats of Arms, etc. but their Regimental cloth, ties, LANYARDs, kilts, ascots, etc will all have different PATTERNS.  Although a Regiment may have the same heraldic colours as yours, does not mean that they are used in the same 'quantity' as your regiments.  One may have a predominance of blue, while another will have just a hint of blue, in their Regimental colours, cloth, tie, etc.  The RCD lanyard is unique to the RCD, as is the RCR to the RCR, and the LdSH(RC) to the LdSH(RC), and on and on.  

When it comes to D Bty of 2 RCHA being on parade for Leliefontein, it is not for a dishonour of loosing their Guns, but for the honour of being able to save their Guns in close cooperation with the RCD.  D Bty, "The Ottawa Valley Boys", were very close to the RCD having been raised in close proximity to the RCD.  In South Africa it was they and the RCD who saved the flying column from the Boers at Leliefontein, not just the RCD.  Don't forget that Lt Morrison, although he did not win a VC, won the DSO for his command of those two guns.

In respect to Dishonour; white is usually a symbolic colour of dishonour.  We have the stories of the White Feathers and such.  The question being, as that the Artillery have a White Lanyard, why and when did that come about?  Is is due to a dishonour in the past or to the 'anal' practices of cleanliness in some circles?  (I know we have covered this in other threads)

GW


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## Gunner

Everything you wanted to know about the lanyard.

http://livefiring.ashst.com/artillery_heritage/whatswhat/lanyard.htm

Read "The Gunners of Canada" overview of Leliefontein at:

http://www.artillery.net/english/RCA Standing Orders.pdf

You can also read about the excellent cooperation between the Royal Regiment of Canadian Artillery with PPCLI, RCD, and RCR.

No cowardice has ever been proven about the artillery.

Cheers,


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## pro patria

Quick reply on the lanyard,
The lanyard serves a purpose attached to it is the inkerman whistle, Front the battle of Inkerman the infantry nco`s were awarded for their gallantry in battle the inkerman whistle, at that present time only officers worn the whistle in battle. However with there huge casualty rate the nco`s took the officer whistle and rayled the soldiers and defeated the enemy


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## Recce41

Yes
 I know George, It was just an example. If you look at Brit Regts. So called, related regts have the same colours. And why Regts may have that colour. 
 As for the dishonour, I didn't say that. It is because one reason they have to pull their cannon. One of honour,and one of they left their gun carriage. I'm on the hunt in some of my books, of uniforms of dishonour. I have found one of a Prussian Regt 1800s. Running and they had to wear their helmet badge to the rear.


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## George Wallace

Recce 41

The Gunners never left a gun carriage at Leiliefontein.   The gun carriage that was left was that of the Colt MG that Sgt Holland picked up in his arms and rode off with.  Check your copy of 'Dragoon' or look at the front cover of 'Our Little Army in the Field' by Brian A Reid.  We gave him permission to place on the jacket of his book the 'Saving the Guns at Leliefontein' print by Peter Archer depicting the battle where three VCs, a DSO and a DCM were won and two Boer Generals killed.  The RCHA also have a similar print taken from the perspective of the guns at the top of the hill.

GW


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## pbi

> No cowardice has ever been proven about the artillery.



And, further, I'll bet that there isn't one single documented "dishonour" that is actually part of the traditions of any unit in the Canadian Army. Personally, I think these alleged "dishonours" are just mess talk or misunderstanding endlessly repeated until they become truth.

In, fact...I will bet. I will send twenty bucks to the first person on this site who can provide documented proof to us all that any Regiment, Branch or Corps in the Canadian Army actually retains an item of dress, a custom, or a practice that is a recognized tradition, that is based on a dishonour ie: they have to do it because they FU'd in battle.

I'm waiting......

( Mr Bobbit: I'm sorry if we're not supposed to wager on this site-didn't mean to lower the tone..........)

Cheers.


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## Recce41

George 
 I know about the Colt. As I understand it. They Gunners got their GUNS away, but left the Carriage. The part between the gun and the Horses. If you look at old cannon. The gun could be pulled with carriage or direct for quick action. The carriage is where 2 other gunners sit, two next to the gun. 
 Some Gunner and I were talking about this in the mess once. In the end we were both right.
 As for units in battle. You may not find any true Canadian Regts, that FU'd.


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## pbi

> As for units in battle. You may not find any true Canadian Regts, that FU'd.



And I bet I'll keep that $20.00 and drink it myself too.... Cheers.


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## Recce41

I have found  some info on dishonoured units, but most are British, French,etc. It has most from the 1700-1900s. The only listing for Canadians is the riot in Britian after WW1.


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## pbi

> The only listing for Canadians is the riot in Britian after WW1.



The repatriation riots in Southern England after the war? You're right that that occurred, but what unit actually carries a "dishonour" from it? The PPCLI mutinied just after the end of WWI: we don't carry any dishonour for that. Come on, guys....... Cheers.


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## George Wallace

Recce41 said:
			
		

> ....... They Gunners got their GUNS away, but left the Carriage. The part between the gun and the Horses. If you look at old cannon. The gun could be pulled with carriage or direct for quick action. The carriage is where 2 other gunners sit, two next to the gun.
> Some Gunner and I were talking about this in the mess once. In the end we were both right.
> As for units in battle. You may not find any true Canadian Regts, that FU'd.



Recce 41

The gun is mounted on the Carriage.   You may be thinking of the Limber?

I think your Gunner friend needs some history.   I seriously doubt that Morrison's men dismounted a 12 Pdr from the carriage, other than loading it onto a train or ship; definitely not in the heat of battle.   Morrison did empty his ammo wagons into his Limbers (44 rds in the Limber and 4 more rds carried on the gun carriage) and sent the empty wagons off to join the Baggage Train.   In all accounts, Morrison's two guns (No 5 and No 6) limbered up and moved off after each engagement.   There is no mention of limbers being left behind.   The exhausted Gunners had to dismount and assist the exhausted horses pull the guns up the ridge.   In fact, Morrison's two guns were later sent into action with the rest of the Guns after getting fresh mounts from his ammo wagons.   His two guns would fire over 240 rds out of the total   563 rds of Arty fired in the whole battle.   

The only carriage that was left, was that of the Colt MG.   Sgt Holland rode off with the jammed Colt and placed it on the Limber of the No. 6 Gun.


GW


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## George Wallace

There are numerous mentions of Units rioting throughout the history of the CF.  In WW II there was a major riot in the interior of BC, involving several units.  The PEIR were involved there, surprisingly, as were several Artillery units.  None of them have any form of dishonour marring their names other than the usual News releases and of course the numerous charges that would have been laid on individuals.

GW


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## Michael Dorosh

An entire brigade of the Canadian Third Division mutinied while still in France just after the armistice.  There was no "dishonour" involved.  Nor was there a riot in that case, they simply refused an order to march, still upset about the handling of their brigade during the last 100 days.  Stuff happens.

I would like to see concrete proof of a unit being made to wear a sign of "dishonour".  There's absolutely no advantage to making your soldiers do that.  

We could have made every member of the Canadian Airborne wear an albatross around their neck, I suppose,, but it was far easier, and politically expedient, to just disband the Regiment.

The British certainly did that in Normandy; at least one battalion, according to Hastings, was disbanded due to morale problems.  But no "dishonour" applied to the Regiment.


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## Recce41

George
 Thanks: I have a picture of some old cannons. And they list the lumber as where the ammo is. The carriage is listed as the part that has the front two wheels and seats, the cannon is on the gun cradle. And others has the whole front and rear as the carriage. It seemed to depend on the yr on the cannon. And the ammo wagon is listed as the Bty wagon also hooked to the a gun carriage? Sorry, my mistake. 

 As stated, it is only British,etc Regts I have found. The only listing is of Canadian is the Blk Watch in MONS. It is from a letter from Currie, I found in a book printed in 1919. It has that "some men of the Regt did dishonour a fine Regt by their actions". It was my Grand Father's, he was given to him for service in WW1. I do remember something about this on a docmentary.


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## pbi

OK----I think we're agreed here. While it is probably true that some Canadian units have done some things that were not particularly honourable, and may actually have been "dishonourable", there is no proof that any unit in our Army today _officially_ carries any mark or distinction or practice   attributed to bad behaviour. Looks like I keep my money. _Nyaah nyaah_.  :dontpanic: Cheers.


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## DaveK

The Airborne Regiment was disbanded because of "disgraceful conduct" check this link.  

http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201/301/hansard-e/35-1/149_95-02-09/149OQ1E.html


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## Michael Dorosh

DaveK said:
			
		

> The Airborne Regiment was disbanded because of "disgraceful conduct" check this link.
> 
> http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201/301/hansard-e/35-1/149_95-02-09/149OQ1E.html



Thanks for the news flash....


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## pbi

> The Airborne Regiment was disbanded because of "disgraceful conduct" check this link.



Right you are, but go back and check the conditions I set. We're talking about existing units carrying traditions or distinctions as as result of dishonour. It is a bit hard for the CAR to carry or perpetuate anything, isn't it? Cheers.


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## Michael OLeary

Back to lanyards: from the Australian Gunner's Old Comrades' Association:

http://tibbsau.com/gnrs0004.html



> The origin of the White Lanyard
> 
> The lanyard had a genuine purpose in war. It was originally a piece of cord, approximately a metre in length, used to secure a jack-knife which was issued to both the artillery and the cavalry. The knife had a number of uses; the blade was for cutting loose horses which became entangled in the head and heel ropes of the picket lines, and the spike of the knife was used as a hoof pick, for the removal of stones from horses hooves. A fuse key was also attached to the lanyard.
> 
> Hanging loose, the lanyard soon became dirty and for the day-to-day barrack routine it looked out of place on an otherwise smart uniform; so for peace time purposes the lanyard was plaited, and whitened with Blanco, to match both the white bandolier and the white waist belt worn by the gunners of the day. The lanyard was worn on the left shoulder with the end containing both the knife and fuse key tucked into the left breast pocket.
> 
> In 1920 the lanyard was moved to the right shoulder, simply because of the difficult problem of trying to remove the knife from the pocket underneath the bandolier. By now the bandolier and belt, worn with battle dress, had long ceased to be white, whilst the lanyard remained so.
> 
> The knife was removed in 1933 and the lanyard then became a straight cord, worn purely as an ornamental item of dress.
> 
> In 1955 it was, for a short time, reintroduced in the plaited style, but it quickly went back to the straight lanyard currently worn today.
> 
> *There is simply no truth either to any other popular story regarding the Artillery's white lanyard.*


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## c/sgt_warren

pbi said:
			
		

> Actually, I think Canadian Regts have more colours than just those: for example in the PPCLI we have French Grey. And, if I'm not mistaken, in the Commonwealth system Royal Blue is actually the facing colour for "Royal" Regiments, not gold. IE: RCR, RCA, CME, R22eR, RRegtC, etc.
> 
> Also, I would really like to see proof that ANY Canadian Regiment, Branch, or Corps actually preserves _any_ item of dress, tradition or practice that is intended as a "dishonour". I keep hearing this stuff, but I have yet to see any proof. Why would anybody bother preserving an embarassment? The only case of this I have ever heard of, and I can't recall the unit now, was that of a British Regt that, during Wellington's Peninsular Campaign, broke into a convent and pillaged and raped. The sentence (IIRC) passed by the War Office was that the Regt'l band, in perpetuity, was to play hymns at sunset each day. Other than that I'm not aware of a substantiated example.
> 
> Cheers.



Um...i may be wrong about this...but i believe that there is a regiment of some sort in the UK that has to wear their berets with their unit brass on the back because they retreated when ordered not to...im not claiming that i am an expert...im just passing along what i have heard...please try to refrain from getting mad at me...:cowers in fear:...

Slainte;
Nate


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## Teddy Ruxpin

You're thinking of the Gloustershire Regiment:



> The Battle of Alexandria was won by a remarkable action fought by one of Britian's oldest and proudest Regiments, the Glosters. Based in Gloucestershire, the Regiment has a long and proud history, and a unique distinction. They are the only Regiment in the world to wear a badge on the front of their caps and on the back. This "Back Badge" is worn in recognition of the fact that the Regiment saved the expeditionary force from the French Cavalry at the Battle of Alexandria when, drawn up in a two rank formation, the rear rank was reversed and fired volley after volley at a French Cavalry formation which had succeeded in getting behind the British forces.
> 
> At the time, it was thought by most commanders that it was impossible to reverse a rank in this way on a battlefield and maintain discipline. The Glosters proved that the impossible was possible - and that the rate of fire they could maintain like this in both directions could be deadly! Their action broke the cavalry charge and saved the expeditionary force which went on to drive the French out of Egypt.



Hardly a dishonour...


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## geo

well.... with respect to Lanyards - no one is authorized to wear em with their field dress anymore.... except those cords that the officers use so as not to lose their Pistols 

Honour & Dishonour?... 
there's the Imperial Black Watch that, after some battle, felt such shame that they cut off the toe of their "spatts"..... a little while later - they pulled it out of the fire for someone and feeling they had "restored" their honour, sewed that missing toepiece onto the back of the Spats... tradition was carried on by the Cdn Black Watch


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## pbi

geo said:
			
		

> well.... with respect to Lanyards - no one is authorized to wear em with their field dress anymore.... except those cords that the officers use so as not to lose their Pistols
> 
> Honour & Dishonour?...
> there's the Imperial Black Watch that, after some battle, felt such shame that they cut off the toe of their "spatts"..... a little while later - they pulled it out of the fire for someone and feeling they had "restored" their honour, sewed that missing toepiece onto the back of the Spats... tradition was carried on by the Cdn Black Watch


Really? Are you sure that the spat (short for "spatterdash") didn't actually have an open toe to begin with? Look at any picture of any British unit from, (let's say..), the Napoleonic period, and I think you will see that spats had no toes. Did thay all share the "shame" of the Black Watch?

I stand by my original challenge: somebody provide proof that a Canadian unit, ANY Canadian unit, actually wears any item on its uniform as a result of a "battle dishonour". I bet you can't, because I bet it's all just mess talk and regimental rumour.

Cheers.


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## Steel Badger

pbi said:
			
		

> Really? Are you sure that the spat (short for "spatterdash") didn't actually have an open toe to begin with? Look at any picture of any British unit from, (let's say..), the Napoleonic period, and I think you will see that spats had no toes. Did thay all share the "shame" of the Black Watch?
> 
> I stand by my original challenge: somebody provide proof that a Canadian unit, ANY Canadian unit, actually wears any item on its uniform as a result of a "battle dishonour". I bet you can't, because I bet it's all just mess talk and regimental rumour.
> 
> Cheers.



backing PBI on this one........it's like saying that the "double dice" on the glen's of some highland regiments was created to represent the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders at Balaclave....people still offer that one up DESPITE the fact theat the 93rd were wearing the "dice" before the crimean war..

Most of the wee uniform bits that give rise to these rumours can be laid at the door of the "quest for fashion" conducted by  Unit Commanders in the 17th - 19th centuries...

SB


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## Michael Dorosh

pbi said:
			
		

> Really? Are you sure that the spat (short for "spatterdash") didn't actually have an open toe to begin with?
> 
> Cheers.



The Black Watch spat is demonstrably different from that worn by every other regiment - I've seen them.  They have a notch cut where no other unit does.  (Though some Cameron Highlanders in Winnipeg seem to have gotten Black Watch spats after the reg force battalions stood down and they were dispersing the kit).   I have not seen an explanation for this anomaly, but it does in fact exist.  Don't know when the pattern changed, but it is not a simple manufacturer's variant.


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## Steel Badger

Again Mike


Its a great example of how a "fashionable difference" in unit kit becomes invested with "tradition" over time......

SB


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## bearded1

Our unit had no history of lanyards for NCOs, (verboten in my time actually) regardless of dress, and we had never thought about them. As instructors on leadership courses with Foot Guards and Highlanders, we felt a bit left out of the whole lanyard thing (not to mention the pace stick thing...), being gunners.  But hey, gunners know lanyards, so we went to our stores locker, grabbed the extra ones, crimped the s-hooks over, and threw those on.  Heck, they were olive drab.  Then we would arbitrarily choose a shoulder to wear them on (switching from week to week as whim dictated, and concocting suitable reasons why), and when asked what it was attached to, we would proudly display our big black wooden balls. This caused no end of consternation with our infantry brethren.

Thanks for the discourse, haven't thought about that in along time.

Ubique,
Regan


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## geo

Disposal of 2 Bn worth of highland rig did result in a lot of reserve highland units wearing "hand-me down kit" that does not correspond. I do remember the L&R Scots of Pembrooke wearing BW Tartan (cause the price was right)....

Getting back to the Spats..... will have to give my friends at the BW a call when I get back into town but, from what I was told, the torn off toe piece, to them, was turned from a disshonour into an honour.... hence the toepiece finding it`s way to the back.... as a reminder.


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## Michael Dorosh

geo said:
			
		

> Disposal of 2 Bn worth of highland rig did result in a lot of reserve highland units wearing "hand-me down kit" that does not correspond. I do remember the L&R Scots of Pembrooke wearing BW Tartan (cause the price was right)....
> 
> Getting back to the Spats..... will have to give my friends at the BW a call when I get back into town but, from what I was told, the torn off toe piece, to them, was turned from a disshonour into an honour.... hence the toepiece finding it`s way to the back.... as a reminder.



Lanark and Renfrew Scottish have always worn Government Tartan.  So have the Black Watch.  The Argylls wear Government tartan also, but wear box pleats instead of knife pleats.  It's all the same tartan - Government, not "Black Watch."  So the L&R got a good deal since they wear the same tartan as the Black Watch, always have from what I can tell - see the 1943 War Dress Regulations.  Or page 85 of DRESSED TO KILL. 
The footnote by the tartan listing for the Lanarks in the 43 WDR says "The kilt is of the same pattern as is worn in The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of the British Army"


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## STA Gunner

Regarding artillery lanyards being white:  when I was in the UK the Master Gunner of the School commented that the white stems from the fact that the lanyards were made from the ropes from ships, which were bleached white by salt and sun.  I have no reference, just an RSMs comment.

I know of an instance where instead of a dishonour being awarded, an honour was withdrawn.

A Bty, 1 RCHA has the honour of carrying the RCR crest on its guns signifying the close bond by fire that the battery had with the regiment in Korea.  The crest was to be on the guns unless the battery accidentally dropped rounds on the Royals.  Unfortunately, some time later the battery did.  The crests were removed.  Later on, the honour was once again bestowed upon A Bty.

I am unsure if it is listed in Nocholson's Gunners of Canada, but the original correspondance from the RCHA to the RCR and back is Regimental NPP in Shilo, and is a good read.


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## Highland Laddie

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> The Black Watch spat is demonstrably different from that worn by every other regiment - I've seen them.   They have a notch cut where no other unit does.   (Though some Cameron Highlanders in Winnipeg seem to have gotten Black Watch spats after the reg force battalions stood down and they were dispersing the kit).     I have not seen an explanation for this anomaly, but it does in fact exist.   Don't know when the pattern changed, but it is not a simple manufacturer's variant.



Happy to say those spats are long gone, if we ever had them to begin with. Sure it wasn't our ''pretender' cousins, the Camerons of O? Many of them walk around with "Cameron" slip ons, etc only to be jacked by us when we see them.


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## Brad Sallows

I just love the "badge of shame" stories.  Can you imagine trying to enforce that?  You'd hear every variation of "sod off" known to man.

My guess is that soldiers just like to try to get under each other's skins by starting rumours that the "other unit's" regimental quiff is a badge of shame.


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## JackCyr

Just a comment to say, that not only Infantry or Artilary Regiments wore a Lanyard.  I was in the Army back in the 1960's before Unificatiowhere I initially served with the Service Corps (R.C.A.S.C.) before transfering to an Infantry unit, and we wore a regimental colored Lanyard on the left shoulder.

At that time, the 2nd Regiment of the Van Doos wore their Lanyard on the right shoulder, under what we were told at the time was a 99 year dishonour for abandoning their positions back in WW1. 
This is what we were told and I do not claim it as Gospel.


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## Yrys

JackCyr said:
			
		

> At that time, the 2nd Regiment of the Van Doos wore their Lanyard on the right shoulder, under what we were told at the time was a 99 year dishonour for abandoning their positions back in WW1.
> This is what we were told and I do not claim it as Gospel.



W   W,
I wonder if it's truth that they've gone out of their post ...

Not if Dorosh was right ...
Lanyards- which side is battle honour/dishonour?


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## Michael OLeary

Wearing of a lanyard as a sign of dishonour is nothing more than a MYTH.  Unless someone can actually provide you a specific event, date, war, and the General Order for wearing of the lanyard, its a bullshit story only invented to cast aspersions on the other unit/regiment/corps.  You can be certain if there was any validity to such a story, then someone would have the details and they would be well known.


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## Fishbone Jones

Thank you Michael.

If any one has hard evidence for inclusion into the thread. Contact a Mod.

Locked,

Milnet.ca Staff


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