# Canadian Military Urged to Stop Medical Training on Live Animals -Article



## JesseWZ (15 Aug 2012)

I am pretty certain this has not been posted before. Mods, if it has I apologize. I found this little gem on Canada.com this afternoon.  Fair dealings and all that...

http://www.canada.com/news/Canadian+military+urged+stop+using+live+animals+medical+training/7095641/story.html


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## PuckChaser (15 Aug 2012)

They don't want us to use animals, but will scream bloody murder if we start buying the super expensive sim-people to great the same experience for the medics.


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## PMedMoe (15 Aug 2012)

The main complaint seems to be from PETA who have probably put more animals to death than many organizations.  Take it for what it's worth.   :


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## brihard (15 Aug 2012)

They can pound sand. It keeps people alive.


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## PuckChaser (15 Aug 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> They can pound sand. It keeps people alive.



And from what I've gathered from medics I spoke with, its done in the absolute most humane way possible with multiple vets right there and the animal is both paralyzed and asleep.


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## wannabe SF member (15 Aug 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> They can pound sand. It keeps people alive.



They can pound something else AFAIC. As someone who might one day be in need of medical attention on the battlefield, I pretty much support anything that can help our medics get better training.

Brihard said it: It keeps people alive.


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## Armymedic (15 Aug 2012)

Exactly whom is it that is urging the CF to cease this practice?


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## The Bread Guy (15 Aug 2012)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Exactly whom is it that is urging the CF to cease this practice?


According to the article linked in the original post ....





> Canada’s military is being urged to end the use of live animals — principally pigs and goats — in training the nation’s battlefield doctors, a call prompted by the publication of a report in the journal Military Medicine that shows only six of 28 NATO countries still employ such techniques in an era when “superior non-animal training methods are widely available,” according to one of the study’s co-authors.
> 
> *“Growing public concern for animal welfare, advances in computerized medical simulation technology, educational considerations and economic barriers have drawn a critical eye to animal use in military medical training,” stated the study, produced by two U.S. researchers — Shalin Gala and Justin Goodman — from the animal-welfare organization PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, along with Maj. Michael Murphy from the Indiana University School of Medicine and Marion Balsam, former commander of Virginia’s Naval Medical Centre Portsmouth* ....



The official answer the government (Defence Research and Development Canada, to be specific) gave in response to the med journal survey:





> I can confirm that as a member of the Canadian Council on Animal Care (CCAC) which establishes the national norms on the use of vertebrates in research, teaching, and testing, DND does, when no other scientifically valid alternative exists, use animals in defence research/training activities.


You can peek at the full journal article here.


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## Armymedic (15 Aug 2012)

So PETA and thier paid American researchers....

Along with a compliant journalist.


No one of any importance then.


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## Tank Troll (15 Aug 2012)

Yup that sums it up pretty much


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## tomahawk6 (16 Aug 2012)

Put the doc's to work in the ER. Work on mostly live people.


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## bLUE fOX (16 Aug 2012)

Out of curiosity, is there a better way to show the effects chemical and biological warfare without using live animals? do we have simulators that can realistically do that?


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## Armymedic (16 Aug 2012)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Put the doc's to work in the ER. Work on mostly live people.



We already do that, from surgeons and nurses who are staff in civ hospitals, to PAs who work along side residents, to Med Techs who work along paramedics and doctors in hospitals.

We also use human simulators, and cadavers.

But nothing replaces the value of learning experience thru physiological responses: feeling warm flesh, seeing bright red blood, and feeling a real pulse, while confirming specific core skills which were learned and practiced by other training methods first.


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## medicineman (16 Aug 2012)

I wonder if these same fruit loops would be open to us using them as live simulation models for some of our surgical procedure training...especially a clamshell thoracotomy - that would put a lovely scar on that bikini body.  Had an ex-GF that was a cancer researcher in Kingston.  She suggested one day instead of using live animal models for their tumour treatments they use the lifers from the KP instead...apparently the ethics commitee had a cow.

The use of animal models over the years has saved countless lives on the battlefield and in the real world and continues to do so - the Sim Man is great for some things, but at the end of the day, it's not living flesh.

MM

Edited to add a bit of sarcasm.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Aug 2012)

Wonder how many PETA-ites would turn down a heart valve replacement with one of these if it was the only way they could live ....


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## PMedMoe (16 Aug 2012)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Wonder how many PETA-ites would turn down a heart valve replacement with one of these if it was the only way they could live ....



About as many that _don't_ wear clothing made of animal products....  :


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## The Bread Guy (16 Aug 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> About as many that _don't_ wear clothing made of animal products....  :


Ah, but you CAN live without a leather belt - with a defective heart valve, not so well.


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## The Bread Guy (17 Aug 2012)

> The Canadian military is “actively” looking for ways to end its use of animals in training battlefield doctors, Postmedia News has learned.
> 
> The disclosure by the Department of National Defence follows the publication of a study last week in the journal Military Medicine that showed only six out of 28 NATO countries — including Canada — continue to use animals such as pigs and goats to help military medical personnel train on treating amputation injuries and other major trauma, as well as exposure to chemical attacks.
> 
> ...


Postmedia News, 16 Aug 12


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## PMedMoe (17 Aug 2012)

Sure, after some idiots from PETA complained....   :


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## The Bread Guy (17 Aug 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Sure, after some idiots from PETA complained....   :


I guess nobody in the Info-machine thought of the "we're ALWAYS looking for different & better ways of doing things" message -  or they used it and didn't see it make the cut in media reports.


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## The Bread Guy (2 Oct 2012)

Just a bump to show it's not _just_ an issue here:


> A German court warned a private company Tuesday to stop a plan to inflict war wounds on pigs so that army paramedics could practice life-saving first aid on the animals.
> 
> The company was offering to supply anaesthetized pigs which had been shot or stabbed or had limbs ripped off. Since pigs are similar in physiology to humans, the animals would resemble wounded soldiers to let military medics hone skills.
> 
> ...


_Stars & Stripes_, 2 Oct 12


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## bridges (3 Oct 2012)

bLUE fOX said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, is there a better way to show the effects chemical and biological warfare without using live animals? do we have simulators that can realistically do that?



Good question.  Does anyone know the answer?


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## Journeyman (3 Oct 2012)

> Since pigs are similar in physiology to humans Engineers.....  [Go on; you know it's true.  ;D ]


Maybe we could start using all the people marking time in PAT platoons?  :dunno:


Can you tell that this is something I'm not getting too worked up over?  :boring:


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## Brasidas (3 Oct 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Maybe we could start using all the people marking time in PAT platoons?  :dunno:
> 
> 
> Can you tell that this is something I'm not getting too worked up over?  :boring:



Its not something I find boring.

I'd like to see our medics get the best possible training experience; its something worth taking a political correctness hit over.


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## medicineman (4 Oct 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Maybe we could start using all the people marking time in PAT platoons?  :dunno:



I think they did that in Suffield alot during the Second World War...still isn't going over well among some folks.

MM


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