# Lack of discipline?



## futuresoldier (1 Mar 2006)

This is something that I have noticed many times. During drill and other Squadron training, most of the guys I know are disciplined and execute the movements properly. But outside of drill, it is a whole different story....

Just recently I was at a drill comp (H.A.W.) at the armouries in Hamilton, and after the comp, my Sqn's drill team was waiting for the bus. I noticed that some fellow cadets were acting very immaturely (eg. screaming, running around on the parade square, etc). Nobody was saying anything about it, and I noticed the Reservists just staring at us with blank faces. I think I am with a good bunch of guys but sometimes they just don't realise that they are still Cadets and that we have to set a good impresion as Cadets. Is there any solution?


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## ouyin2000 (1 Mar 2006)

I see you're a LAC.

The best solution is to let one of your senior cadets know what is happening, and hopefully they will deal with it.


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## Scott (2 Mar 2006)

Tough one. You do have to remember that you're dealing with adolescents. But at the same time these are adolescents that represent something and they should be taught to know better. Like I said, tough one. I'll echo the comments above, bring it higher and see what they can do about it. Although there have been times I have seen "higher" acting worse than the new kids.


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## PViddy (2 Mar 2006)

> Is there any solution?



Their sure is.  report it up the chain.  Where is the supervision when all this is going on ? report it up the chain, they will appreciate your initiative and vigilance.

regards,

PV


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## Thompson_JM (3 Mar 2006)

Scott said:
			
		

> Tough one. You do have to remember that you're dealing with adolescents. But at the same time these are adolescents that represent something and they should be taught to know better. Like I said, tough one. I'll echo the comments above, bring it higher and see what they can do about it. Although there have been times I have seen "higher" acting worse than the new kids.



the problem is when the CIC act no better then the 14 year old cadets....

I observed several in connaught who belonged in a frat house, not a CF uniform....

though the guy i worked under? Capt. in the CIC.... man... he was BANG-ON


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## Scott (3 Mar 2006)

You can see examples of that on this very site!! It's appalling to think that a 13 or 14 year old has more maturity than their "Officer" who is in their 20's. Just what are they _teaching_ them? And those same CIC members will be the ones to trumpet themselves the loudest and demand _respect_ as officers in the PRes!! 

To PViddy and the other great members of the CIC that I see here (I am sorry but I can't remember you all) I sincerely apologize for the clowns that you are forced to work with, they ensure that you are painted with the same brush, not by me, hopefully not by all, but certainly by some. I applaud you for your work with kids and say a silent prayer for you knowing some of the thuds you have wandering around your ranks.


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## Lerch (3 Mar 2006)

If you come from a corp that has alot of immature cadets, and you're going out in public eye or out with the reserves or whatever, talk to your corp/squadron before you leave. Simply tell them you are taking names of any cadets that act unruly or immature. You can also brief your NCO's to keep an eye on the cadets during breaks/downtime.

If cadets are being dumb...take their names (with an explanation of their actions)...pass it up to your XO or whoever is in charge of discipline.


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## Neill McKay (3 Mar 2006)

Scott said:
			
		

> To PViddy and the other great members of the CIC that I see here (I am sorry but I can't remember you all) I sincerely apologize for the clowns that you are forced to work with, they ensure that you are painted with the same brush, not by me, hopefully not by all, but certainly by some. I applaud you for your work with kids and say a silent prayer for you knowing some of the thuds you have wandering around your ranks.



Every branch has its resident gang of numpties and clowns -- thank you for understanding that ours are only a part of the whole.


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## PViddy (4 Mar 2006)

> *Every branch has its resident gang of numpties and clowns * -- thank you for understanding that ours are only a part of the whole.



Seconded.

cheers

PV


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## bbbb (17 Mar 2006)

Every sqn has their share of immature people. What's important is that they don't rise up to senior positions before the mature ones. A good sqn starts with good people, this image will resonate and bad apples should get the hint and either shape up or ship out. 632 sqn was a good sqn when I became a cadet, they were able to get rid of all the bad apples and recognize the good people. Good behaviour was rewarded in that sqn. We knew how to have fun too. 632 benefitted greatly from superb senior cadets. Some of our officers were new and experimented to see what worked and what didn't. This didn't ride well with the senior cadets but I think they understood their reasons. Good officers is very important because they are the link with parents, if the officers are no good the cadets will soon find themselves not cadets anymore. If the senior cadets don't do what they are supposed to do, the officers must intervene. This can also lead to an exodus of cadets as senior cadets are often the first line of supervision.


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## armywife/cadetmom (7 Aug 2006)

My husband was an Army Cadet, he is now been in the military for 15 years; i was an Air cadet, and my son is now in the Junior Navy League until he is old enough to join air cadets; WE didnt behave like immature adolescents! My 9 year old son know better then to run around behaving like an idiot when he is out doing anything involved with Cadets.  Alot of the Corps, Sqdns and the like have become very Lax about things and need to stiffen up again!  My point is, blaming the behavior on the age....No, that just doesnt work..if they are old enough to put on
the uniform, handle a weapon, and represent our country..then they should darn well be old enough to know how to bahave in their uniform.


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## Burrows (7 Aug 2006)

Armywife/cadetmom, could you please provide specific incidents where they have demonstrated a lack of discipline, because if they were in casual environments you must remember they are just children as well.  While I wouldn't put up with fooling around in my corps, some may be more relaxed.  

As a side note, I've found many CIC officers come from real occupations that don't involve leadership and and such, they haven't found their ability to lead the cadets.  While some may see this as just another jab at the CIC, I have met officers who can't lead their way out of a wet paper bag, and some who are the best officers I've ever met.  The cadets will learn by example.


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## Beezer (7 Aug 2006)

I can name a few.

My regiment supports two army cadet corps and one air cadet squadron. Each corps has a sergeant assigned to it as Cadet Liaison Officer (CLO) as a secondary or tertiary duty. They act as a link between the cadet corps and the regiment. However budget cuts and the fact that cadets don`t train when we do makes it difficult to support them.

Here are my examples...

I`ve seen female cadets walking around the regiment with their hair down way over their shoulders, ties completely loosed and tunics wide open. I`ve seen another slidding along the wall with his wedge on sideways. I`ve seen CIC officers with diagrams shaved into their haircuts. 

I`ve seen a cadet who was in three years with hair touching his shoulders. I was told they can`t make him cut his hair but he is still allowed to wear the uniform that carries my regimental cap brass.

I`ve also seen the cadet corps CO with a goatee. When I approached him about it (as I knew him from back in my cadet days) he agreed that it wasn`t regimental but it looked cool. He also had something shaved in his haircut.

I`ve seen vandalism on the bathroom walls from the cadet corps. Not to mention some of the facilities they use (classrooms, washrooms and office space) are sometimes dirty.

What is a subordinate to do if his/her whole chain of command is corrupt.

Find a new corps


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## rmacqueen (7 Aug 2006)

This is an ongoing problem that our Corps has been grappling with.

In our changing society there are a number of problems that have arisen.  For one thing, often there is not parental control of the children.  We have had a number of cadets whose parents have shown very little interest in participating with the child.  This creates difficulty in enforcement of discipline.  It becomes a useless endeavour to send a letter home to the parent when they don't really care.

Another problem is the apparent epidemic of Attention Deficit Disorder and all of its permutations.  It becomes very difficult to discipline a cadet when misbehaviour is put down to them "forgetting" to take their perscription.

And, of course, kids will be kids.

Another problem I have not experienced yet (being fairly new to Cadets) but have heard about is the politics involved in Summer Training amongst the CIC staff.  Over and over I have heard the horror stories of CIC behaving as if the camps were just an opportunity to party and throw ones weight around.  There does not seem to be a recognition that the cadets are watching this behaviour and that respect for authority goes out the window with it.

The problem is, how do we deal with it?  The answer is one step at a time.

In our corps we are attempting to stress the responsibility and honour that is given to cadets by being allowed to wear the uniform.  We point how the general public views them as extensions of the CF and they must behave accordingly.  The idea is that the cadets need to understand in order to modify their behaviour.  We also clamp down on those that continue to misbehave while in uniform (a nod to my various Sergeant Majors for all those great phrases to use when jacking someone up...minus the swear words, of course.)

We also expect our CIC officers to lead by example and to operate on the principal of the troops come first.  No officer is allowed to jump the line in the mess, unless the are the Duty Officer, and they will behave appropriately in front of the Cadets.  We live by the principal that respect is earned not given.  This can cause conflicts with other CICs who do not behave this way but our belief is this is the right approach and doing the right thing is usually not the easy thing.

Ultimately, it comes down to what you are attempting to accomplish and how far you are willing to go with it.  The enforcement of discipline has affected the numbers within our Corps but at the same time we are developing a Corps we, and especially the cadets, can be proud of.


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## Neill McKay (7 Aug 2006)

Beezer said:
			
		

> I`ve seen CIC officers with diagrams shaved into their haircuts.



I'm surprised at your plural -- just how many such disgraces have you seen?


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## armywife/cadetmom (7 Aug 2006)

I was asked for a specific example...well , when we had the 90th anniversary here in Borden this June, there were Cadets from 99 lynx in Orillia here, In Uniform, carrying on swearing, horsing around with eachother rough housing and being quite rude in how they navigated thru the crowdes.  There are incidents from when we were posted to london aswell.  point is, if you are in uniform, you should conduct yourself accordingly.  The navy league punishes those who misbehave by having them stay late picking up trash, or losing sailing privilages...im sure there is a way to punish the older cadets!  As i have said, my 9 year old can behave while he is with the cadets.


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## Burrows (7 Aug 2006)

One would ask what your 9 year old is doing with the cadets.

While I agree with your ideals, there are better ways than punishing cadets.  Did you try speaking to their officers?


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## Krisz (7 Aug 2006)

As Rmacqueen stated, this is as often a problem with the parents as anything. A lot of parents treat Cadets as a way to solve all their child's problems, and while Cadets is very good for doing things such as that, parents do need to take an active role in helping their own children. Otherwise, Cadets 'forced' into the program by their parents often retaliate by acting like immature six year olds, and generally making fools of themselves. It's hard to get the children to actually care about going to Cadets and having proper deportment when their parents can't be bothered to care.

Cadets these days are difficult to deal with, especially if they make a game out of annoying the other Cadet NCOs and their fellow cadets. Too many of them seem to not want to be there, and are making it a tough time for the people that actually want to be there. Once again - I understand that many parents hope Cadets will cure their child's discipline problems, but if the child honestly doesn't want to be there and the parent isn't making an effort to reinforce some of what they're taught at Cadets at home, then all the things that are taught to them are just flushed down the drain and have to be re-taught the next week.

The problems also result too many times from lax attitudes on part of the Senior NCOs, (I'm a -Cadet- Sergeant myself,) and the cadet just not wanting to be there. If one Senior doesn't bother to reprimand a Cadet, then the Cadet will expect that all Seniors will act the same. At the age of the Cadet we're dealing with, they're very impressionable, and thusly it's important that ALL the Seniors, not just one, take on the responsibility of their rank and make sure that the Cadets know what is right and what is wrong.

While it's not always the fault of the Seniors and the CIC Staff, often times the Cadets look up to these older and wiser role models, and when you've got a Flight Sergeant acting like a complete imbecile, what do you expect the younger Cadets to do? The trouble is, these Flight Sergeants are the Cadets of yesterday - and since apparently they had the same problems, it'll just keep going till someone manages to break the chain. If one Cadet's foolishness leads to another Cadet's foolishness, the second Cadet's foolishness will just lead to another... and so on. 

Sergeants, Flight Sergeants, Warrant Officers - all Cadets with posistions of authority - need to learn their responsibilities and their duties clearly. It's the job of everyone who knows their responsibilities to make sure that everyone else also knows theirs, so that the Squadron, (or Corps,) functions like a well-oiled machine. (An overused expression in Cadets, but, unfortunately, one that doesn't hold true in a lot of cases.)

Cadets are like sponges. The trouble is, they soak up the bad along with the good. Keep that in mind when you're teaching, speaking with them, or otherwise at all near any Cadets, and the Cadet program should do fairly well.

Cheers,
Krisz


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## armywife/cadetmom (7 Aug 2006)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> One would ask what your 9 year old is doing with the cadets.
> 
> While I agree with your ideals, there are better ways than punishing cadets.  Did you try speaking to their officers?



*Junior Navy League is for kids aged 9 to 13.*  My son is in JNL because he wants to be a part of the military.  My son absolutly loves being a cadet and cant wait till he is 12 and can join  the Air Cadets.  My 7 year old daughter is also anxious to turn 9 to become a Navy League Cadet.  We are very proud to be a military family! I think that is the important thing to see.  I didnt enroll my son as a way to discipline him, i enrolled him  a) because he wanted in, and B) because anyone who has been a cadet knows how incredible an experience it is!

Secondly, about punishment; i believe in consequences for actions, i dont see anything wrong with being made to do garbage sweeps or losing privilages if a cadet isnt going to respectively listen to the lesson on how to be safe in the boat...its common sense!  Would you hand a cadet a rifle on the range when s/he didnt listen to the lesson on how to be safe with it?

And no i didnt get a chance to speak to Captain Keene about her cadets because i couldnt chase her down with my three kids in tow, it was a large event.


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## Krisz (7 Aug 2006)

Keeping in mind I'm not saying anyone in particular.

Cheers,
Krisz


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## Canadian Psyco (7 Aug 2006)

Im in Army cadets, and I notice alot of that kind of stuff going on, alot of immaturity and stupidity at all activities that our corp attends. and the problem I find when I am trying to correct/disapline them, is that out hands are tied when we need to disapline cadets, with CHAP and all, it makes it hard to punish cadets for their actions, all we can do is talk to them, and make them write a letter of apology. like we can't yell at them, make them do pushups, or do pretty much anything that is a true punishment.


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## armywife/cadetmom (7 Aug 2006)

Canadian Psyco said:
			
		

> Im in Army cadets, and I notice alot of that kind of stuff going on, alot of immaturity and stupidity at all activities that our corp attends. and the problem I find when I am trying to correct/disapline them, is that out hands are tied when we need to disapline cadets, with CHAP and all, it makes it hard to punish cadets for their actions, all we can do is talk to them, and make them write a letter of apology. like we can't yell at them, make them do pushups, or do pretty much anything that is a true punishment.




Sure you cant make them do push-ups, or yell at them, but; when i was in 99Lynx 11 years ago, we did have ALOT of drill practice if we made the Squadron look bad, or  we were not permitted to come here to Borden for Gliding the next time out.


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## rmacqueen (7 Aug 2006)

armywife/cadetmom said:
			
		

> Sure you cant make them do push-ups, or yell at them, but; when i was in 99Lynx 11 years ago, we did have ALOT of drill practice if we made the Squadron look bad, or  we were not permitted to come here to Borden for Gliding the next time out.



And good senior Cadets and CIC can certainly give them a dressing down instead of allowing the behaviour to continue


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## Jerkass (7 Aug 2006)

-


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## paracowboy (7 Aug 2006)

as a CIC officer and a 25 year-old, you should know better than to choose that screen name. 
Here's your intro to the site.

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Infantry FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977

Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure:
http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Army.ca wiki pages  
 - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Please don't post in that inflammatory manner again. Welcome to Army.ca.


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## Infanteer (7 Aug 2006)

Jerkass said:
			
		

> the world is full of morons...



Evidently.  And jerkasses too....


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## Sig_Des (7 Aug 2006)

I'm sure there are good CIC officers, but I've unfortunately never had the opportunity to deal with any of those.

The worst for me was this summer in Kingston. I was eating dinner at the McD's just off the McNaughton gates (The REME Gates, with a memorial).

Normally, I'll just leave things be when I see cadets doing something they shouldn't or, not doing something they should. Hoping that one of their CIs or CICs will sort them out. This time I couldn't.

A gaggle of cadets were in uniform, walking around with iPods plugged in their ears, goofing off. This I could have let slide. What I couldn't was the fact that cadets, and worse, CICs were walking past through the McNaughton gates, and not saluting the memorial. This really irked me.

I actually waited for the cadets to go by, and pulled aside the CIC who seemed to be in charge, an obviously new CIC 2Lt. I identified myself as a Cpl on course at CFSCE, and let her know that it didn't reflect proper dress and deportment for her cadets to have earphones in while wearing the uniform, and let her know that the gate was a memorial, and it was disrespectful to those REMEs who'd given up their lives by not paying compliments to the memorial.

I heard her telling the cadets to take the earphones out after that, and I'm hoping she saluted the memorial.

Now, she was new, and possibly didn't know about the memorial, but there were 2 other CICs kicking around, one a Captain, and the other who was walking around holding a cadets hand (I'm assuming the CIC was a mother). Both of these seemed like they should know better, and neither saluted the memorial, or seemed to do anything about the cadets deportment. IMO, they should have been acting a bit more professionally.

I'm hoping that in the future, I will see CICs who behave in a more appropriate matter.


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## Jerkass (7 Aug 2006)

para cowboy i dont know how i posted anything inflamatory.  Just an opionon and thats what fourms are for, A group of people who share their thoughts and opinions.  I could sugar coat things next time if you would prefer


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## Burrows (7 Aug 2006)

Mr. CIC 2LT,

 Your first choice of nickname was HIGHLY inappropriate for anyone, let alone someone who works with members of a youth program.  Saying things like "welcome to society" and such isn't aiding the conversation in a positive manner and is, again, reflecting poorly upon yourself as an officer.  An officer is a gentleman, NOT a rude and arrogant who comes on the internet and acts like an uncouth child.  Your choice of nickname was something I would have expected from a cadet.

Lets address spelling as well.  Here at army.ca we really like it when members use their brains and spell properly and don't make it hard to read.  There is a spell check, there is a caps lock, there is a shift key.  USE THEM.

Forums are for stating your opinion, sharing views, and sharing information.  Forums are NOT for setting a poor example of CIC officers to the rest of the world and acting like an e-toughguy.

The ramp is down.  Shape up or ship out.

Paracowboy - Please don't take offense at what is said, I believe Just a CIC 2LT may be suffering from the problem he so fondly calls "Ex RSM Syndrome."


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Aug 2006)

Just a CIC 2LT said:
			
		

> para cowboy i dont know how i posted anything inflamatory.  Just an opionon and thats what fourms are for, A group of people who share their thoughts and opinions.  I could sugar coat things next time if you would prefer



If you think that's all that army.ca is then you have not read through the guidelines nor read through some of the posts to get a feel for this place....


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## Jerkass (7 Aug 2006)

was a cadet for 2 years about 10 years ago.. never an RSM.. 

I didnt know this fourm was a place where views are flammed
I dont think anything that I said was out of line at all
as a police officer I deal with and see more things than alot of people ever come in contact with
so dont judge me as an "ex cadet" for using my spare time to give back to the community

I will use spell check if it was a professional letter to my boss
not for a fourm thanks


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## c.jacob (7 Aug 2006)

:


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## aesop081 (7 Aug 2006)

Just a CIC 2LT said:
			
		

> was a cadet for 2 years about 10 years ago.. never an RSM..
> 
> I didnt know this fourm was a place where views are flammed
> I dont think anything that I said was out of line at all
> ...



Silverbach ?

 :


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## Burrows (7 Aug 2006)

Just a CIC 2LT said:
			
		

> was a cadet for 2 years about 10 years ago.. never an RSM..
> 
> I didnt know this fourm was a place where views are flammed
> I dont think anything that I said was out of line at all
> ...


Right.  So if you're choosing to violate the terms you agreed to when you created an account I can ban you right?  For a Police Officer you sure don't place much in rules and regulations.


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## Jerkass (7 Aug 2006)

In a fourm?


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## George Wallace (7 Aug 2006)

Time for some practice of discipline here.

Time out everyone.

CIC 2LT it would be good advice for you to read these:


MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Infantry FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977

Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure:
http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Army.ca wiki pages  - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.


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## Burrows (7 Aug 2006)

Just a CIC 2LT said:
			
		

> In a fourm?


Rules are rules.  I'd like to let you know that the DND and DCdts frequently monitor this site and I doubt they would be impressed with your performance.


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