# Contract Lengths (Merged)



## slacker (18 May 2005)

What's the minimum contract length for someone joining as a private with no prior experience?


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## kincanucks (18 May 2005)

For Regular Force it depends on the occupation and varies from 3 to 5 years now.


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## slacker (19 May 2005)

Hmm...  Food for thought.

I'm interested in joining when I finish highschool, but three years is a long time.  Supposing I join and after a couple years can't stand it for whatever reason, do I have any recourse?


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## George Wallace (19 May 2005)

As you grow up, and enter into Adulthood, you must learn to do grown up things.  You will sign a Three Year Contract and will be held to that.  It is a Legal and Binding Document, that you can learn how life as a grown up is like.  Can you 'Break' this Contract?  Yes, you can.  There are several ways, some legal, some not.  You may get a Medical Release.  That is one legal way.  You can Desert.  That would be the illegal way.  You may have reason for a Compassionate Release, or perhaps be a Training Failure, or an Administrative Burden.  Perhaps you will be in a Trade that is 'overborne' or now being downsized or eliminated and you may be offered a 'buy out'.  Most often, though, you will be held to the contract that you sign.


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## slacker (19 May 2005)

I assure you I wasn't looking for anything less than a legitimate exit if it were to become a problem.  Also, I don't equate adulthood with gambling away three years.  If I'd been in the army three years already, or knew a single soul who had been, it might be a little bit more of an informed decision.
But it isn't, and three years is a long enough time that a pat on the back isn't quite sufficient motivation.  Needless to say I am still interested, but it bears thinking about.


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (19 May 2005)

One way you can look at it is 3 years out of lets say the average 76 year life span is not a great commitment. In that 3 years you will be housed fed and paid pretty well.You can have any education furthurance paid for, you will make alot of great friends, see the world and serve your country.After 3 years your experience with the CF will stand out on a resume above all else and you will have more "ammunition" under your belt to make an informed decision as to what you want out of life.

 But as you stated, all you get is a pat on the back and I guess Mcdonalds and pogey checks is just as good.


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## George Wallace (19 May 2005)

Slacker

I think you missed the point on "Contract" and the responsibility of one to honour their "Contract".  No matter where you go in your adult life, you will be 'contractly' bond to something; work, purchases, renting, using the internet, basically everything that you do is regulated by a contract of some sort.  The way that you honour your contracts will measure what type of person you are.

As for a three year contract in the CF; although some portions of it may seem like it will last forever, it will be over before you will even know it.  SHELLDRAKE made some good points of what to expect in that case.


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## Fusilier (19 May 2005)

Greetings all, just to jump in here...Effective 1 May 05 the CF has made some significant changes to the Terms of Service (TOS).  The term "contract" is misleading as it implies a binding agreement, legally enforceable.  So in typical CF style it is not a "contract" it's a Term of Service:

"TOS is an agreement between a member and the CF to provide military service until lawfully released.  TOS provides a framework for the training, employment and personnel development requirements of the CF.  The TOS consists of two parts, ie; a structure and series of control processes.  The policies associated with the TOS define the conditions for converting a member's term of service."

So what this means.... when you enroll you will sign a Term of Service (TOS) called a Variable Initial Engagement (VIE)  ??? "the VIE is the new intial engagement for members of the Reg Force.  The duration of the VIE normally ranges from a minimum of 3 yrs to a max of 9 years, excluding subsidized training."

Example:  You enrol as an infanteer it's estimated that it will take 0-199 training days to bring you to your Operationally Functional Point (OFP), therefore your VIE is for three years.  However, say you enrol as a medic, it's estimated that it will take 400+ training days to bring you to OFP so therefore you sign a VIE of 6 yrs.  Think of it as we're spending x $$ in training you, providing equipment etc so once you have completed training we still get our "pound of flesh" for the investment made in you.  

But what if I decide I hate it..let me out please!!

In accordance with the release policies 

" a member who requests voluntary release while undergoing basic military occupational training will not receive approval unless military and personal requirements are compatible.  This policy will continue to be enforced.  Strong communication is necessary to ensure that potential candidates understand the difference between the restricted release policy, obligatory service and TOS, especially VIE.  Once the period of restricted release or obligatory service is completed, a member may request release, even before the expiry of a VIE."   ??? so, depending on circumstances you may be able to release prior to the end of your contract..oops Term of Service.

Hope this makes some sense to you, effectively this means you need to consider carefully your future, your choice of military occupation and your commitment to the forces.  George is right, sometimes it feels like forever and sometimes it's gone in a blink...

Good luck Slacker with whatever you choose.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Slacker
> 
> I think you missed the point on "Contract" and the responsibility of one to honour their "Contract".   No matter where you go in your adult life, you will be 'contractly' bond to something; work, purchases, renting, using the internet, basically everything that you do is regulated by a contract of some sort.   The way that you honour your contracts will measure what type of person you are.
> 
> As for a three year contract in the CF; although some portions of it may seem like it will last forever, it will be over before you will even know it.   SHELLDRAKE made some good points of what to expect in that case.


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## Seaman_Navy (23 May 2005)

Some people told me the initial contract (for NCM) can be up to 7 years depending the trade you are ? Is it possible or it doesn't happen really often?


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## George Wallace (23 May 2005)

The Contract for Service is being modified as the Terms of Service are being changed.   What you used to find was two Three Year Contracts and then the opportunity for a longer Contract, if your 'skills' were what your trade 'wanted'.   That way after three and six years, if you were not what they wanted due to poor work ethic, medical, financial or other problems, you would not be offered another Contract.   If they deemed you a suitable candidate for further employment, you would get to sign a Contract to take you to 20 years of Service.   Now the whole procedure is changing and people are now serving 25 years.   This further complicates the Pension Plan and it to has to be reformed to reflect changes in the Terms of Service Contracts.

Fun.....ain't it.... ;D

[Edit]  I joined under the "20/40 Plan", where I was to serve 20 years or until I was 40, whichever came last.  Times have changed since then (a couple of times in fact).


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## Zombie (23 May 2005)

Fusilier said:
			
		

> However, say you enrol as a medic, it's estimated that it will take 400+ training days to bring you to OFP so therefore you sign a VIE of 6 yrs.



Is 6 years years the actual Term of Service (or VIE) for newly enrolled Medical Technicians? Just curious to know, as I was under the assumption it was 3 years, and if it is 6, it's a good thing to realize as I'm preparing for this trade.


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## Pea (23 May 2005)

> Is 6 years years the actual Term of Service (or VIE) for newly enrolled Medical Technicians? Just curious to know, as I was under the assumption it was 3 years, and if it is 6, it's a good thing to realize as I'm preparing for this trade.



That is exactly what I am wondering now. I was also under the impression that it was 3 years. Definitely a good thing to know as I am hoping for this trade as well.


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## Rebel_RN (23 May 2005)

In an instance such as this the best thing to do is talk with your RC, get the answers you may need or want before you submit anything. That way you are making an informed decision and don't have to pull out the " Golly gee I didn't know it would be this long" song and dance. Ultimately it is you are responsible to know these things before you sign on the dotted line in any scenario.


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## Pea (23 May 2005)

Rebel_RN said:
			
		

> In an instance such as this the best thing to do is talk with your RC, get the answers you may need or want before you submit anything. That way you are making an informed decision and don't have to pull out the " Golly gee I didn't know it would be this long" song and dance. Ultimately it is you are responsible to know these things before you sign on the dotted line in any scenario.



Thats what I was planning to do on Tuesday when I go in. I was however told that it was 3 years for a Medical Technician by a Recruiter, which is why I was under that impression. But that was a little while ago, so maybe it has changed. Oh well, no worries. I want this trade, so it doesn't affect whether or not I will join. 

Thanks.


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## Zombie (23 May 2005)

Rebel_RN said:
			
		

> In an instance such as this the best thing to do is talk with your RC, get the answers you may need or want before you submit anything. That way you are making an informed decision and don't have to pull out the " Golly gee I didn't know it would be this long" song and dance. Ultimately it is you are responsible to know these things before you sign on the dotted line in any scenario.



The first time I've questioned the term of service for a Med Tech was when I read this thread, so I have not had an opportunity to ask a recruiter. I also want this trade regardless, however as I said, it is good to know now. I'm sure I would know the actual length of service before signing anything anyway, just thought Fusilier may be able to inform as to whether he was stating the actual TOS for a Med Tech or just providing a random example that may not always be correct.


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## Fry (24 May 2005)

What's the minimum number of years for the initial "contract" or terms of service, for the occupation "Armoured Soldier" ?


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## Fusilier (24 May 2005)

Zombie said:
			
		

> The first time I've questioned the term of service for a Med Tech was when I read this thread, so I have not had an opportunity to ask a recruiter. I also want this trade regardless, however as I said, it is good to know now. I'm sure I would know the actual length of service before signing anything anyway, just thought Fusilier may be able to inform as to whether he was stating the actual TOS for a Med Tech or just providing a random example that may not always be correct.



To All, yes I was stating the actual TOS.  Effective 1 May 05 everything changed that is why some of you were probably told by your recruiters that your first TOS was 3 years.

So here's some answers for you...

737 Med Tech - first TOS = VIE of 6 yrs, second TOS IE of 25 (this means you serve 6 yrs and then if you wish to stay in you then sign a TOS 25 bringing your TOTAL service to 25 years)

011 Crewman (Armoured) - first TOS = VIE of 5 yrs, second TOS is a CE (Continuing Engagement) of 4 yrs, third TOS = IE 25

411 Vehicle Technician - first TOS = VIE of 4 yrs, second TOS is a CE of 5 yrs and third TOS = IE 25 yrs

I know it's confusing, but just ask your recruiter or feel free to ask here.  I deal with this stuff all the time!!  Remember, Med Tech is a technical trade so you may give 6 yrs but a good chunk of that is the army training you.  After 6 yrs if you decide to leave you should be the rank of Corporal and have some good training, maybe even a tour down range.


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## Spartan (24 May 2005)

Is there a master list available on nonDIN websites that might outline the different trades and contract lengths?


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## Fusilier (24 May 2005)

Sorry there is no master list avail, if anyone is interested in the TOS for officers plse let me know


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## Pieman (24 May 2005)

Fusilier, if it is not too much trouble I would like to see TOS for the different Officer postions.


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## Seaman_Navy (24 May 2005)

Thank you fusilier for the list


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## Fusilier (24 May 2005)

No problem, ask and you'll recieve.


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## Pieman (24 May 2005)

Thanks Fusilier,

Wow, that clears up a misconception I had about TOS. I was surprised to see some of the trades that have a lot of classroom time associated with them have fairly short terms, like ANAV is only 6 years. While Infantry is a full 9 years.


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## Fusilier (24 May 2005)

Remember OFP!  Operational Functional Point, I'm not sure why ANAV is 6 yrs and Infantry 9....minds greater than mine at work  .  Be sure to talk to your recruiter for more details on individual occupations.


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## Zombie (24 May 2005)

Thanks for the clarification Fusilier...one more question regarding this:

[quote author=Fusilier]
737 Med Tech - first TOS = VIE of 6 yrs, second TOS IE of 25 (this means you serve 6 yrs and then if you wish to stay in you then sign a TOS 25 bringing your TOTAL service to 25 years)
[/quote]

Must it be a TOS of 25 years after your initial TOS of 6 is up? Is it not possible to sign for another 3, 4, 6, or even 10 years, instead of another 19?


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## Michael OLeary (24 May 2005)

Zombie said:
			
		

> Must it be a TOS of 25 years after your initial TOS of 6 is up? Is it not possible to sign for another 3, 4, 6, or even 10 years, instead of another 19?



You sign a contract that will allow you to serve up to the 25 year point before new Terms of Service (TOS) would be required, perhaps a short Continuing Engagement (CE) or only a few years, or terms taking you to Compulsory Retirement Age (CRA). The contract to 25 years is not a compulsory term, you would be permitted to request release before it's completing (subject, as always, to service requirements) but there has been no discussion that I have seen allowing for shorter engagement terms.


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## Zombie (24 May 2005)

Does any of this affect remustering? Or is a remuster (request) allowed at any time?


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## Copper_Sunrise (24 May 2005)

I'm a little confused I've been selected for 434 FCS tech, does this mean I might be serving more than 3 years in my initial time?


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## Fusilier (25 May 2005)

Hi guys,

Ok first off - to Zombie,  

However, for the Med Tech trade the only TOS options are intial VIE - 6 yrs and then onto an IE for a total service of 25 yrs, and of course there may be options for further TOS as Michael O'Leary stated. Remember though "contract" is a dirty word. 

In ref to remustering, yes you can request a voluntary occupational transfer (VOT) as long as you meet the fol prerequisites:  
- Must have completed 48 months of continuous service by 31 December of the year in which the application is made. 
- Must meet appropriate medical category for desired MOC (you must be fit medically for that occupation)
- Must be QL4 qualified in current MOC (normally a period of On the Job Training (OJT)
- Must be Pte/Cpl or if MCpl or above, must be willing to relinquish rank and pay to Cpl 
- Member's occupation must be "open out" as detailed in competition message (which are published yearly)

Big thing to note - "members who voluntarily occupationally transfer (VOT) must agree to a Restricted Release Date/Period (RRD/P).  This will help recover the training invested in bringing members to the OFP (remember this   ) in the new occupation.  The RRD/P takes effect the date members sign the statement of understanding for the new occupation.  The actual 3 yr RRD/P commences the day after members reach OFP in their new occupation."  Make any sense?  Basically, you've trained as a Med Tech, and now for some strange reason you decide you want to become infantry  ;D you've already served four years of your Med Tech VIE (6yrs), now you will have to sign another VIE of 3 yrs for the infantry in order for the army to recoup the cost of training you.

To Copper - I'm guessing you've just been selected, yes it's more than three years.  You will be on a VIE for 4 yrs, then the next TOS will be a CE of 5 yrs and then finally an IE to bring you to a total of 25 years.

Remember, once you've finished your first VIE, if you don't want to stay in no problem just refuse futher TOS, same goes for at the end of a CE.  Once you're on an IE you may submitt voluntary release (with 6 months notice) at any time.  

So clear as mud?


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## Pea (25 May 2005)

> So clear as mud?



Fusilier,

Thank you very much for that explanation. I am hoping for Med Tech, and I was quite confused about how the whole term of service situation worked. It actually all makes sense how it works now. Again, thanks so much for the clarification.


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## Copper_Sunrise (25 May 2005)

Excellent, thank you Fusilier that was rather informative.


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## Zombie (26 May 2005)

Thanks for taking the time to explain Fusilier, that definitely helps out a lot...


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## Fusilier (26 May 2005)

You're very welcome!  Almost like having you're own personal clerk eh ;D


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## Copper_Sunrise (26 May 2005)

Ya I just got the confirmation of the 4 years followed by the remaining 25 in my update interview... I always kind of wonder if kincanucks is the one interviewing me though... that would be weird.


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## Canadian Sig (26 May 2005)

Already on my IE but just for sh!ts and giggles; anyone know how long Sig-Op (215) VIEs are?


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## RS (26 May 2005)

Fusilier,

How long are the initial TOS for RMS Clerk or a Supply Tech?  I had no idea that the initial TOS were differant for every trade.  I thought it was 3 yrs for all of them.  

Thanks,
RS


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## D-n-A (26 May 2005)

The first basic engagement for supp tech or clerk is 3 years AFAIK, as for comms, dunno.  I know when my transfer goes through for  Armour its a 3 year BE, an my brothers first BE for Infantry was 3 years.


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## Copper_Sunrise (26 May 2005)

Supply tech and clerk are still 3 years, sig op is 4 years, and trade 011 crewman is now 5 years. This is all courtsey of Fusilier's word document titled "TOS Sequence by Occupation" found on the second page of this thread. This and the one for officers should actually be stickied if any directing staff are listening.


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## Fusilier (27 May 2005)

Copper is correct (would make a good clerk  ), the difference for Sup Tech and RMS Clk is the second TOS the CE.

Sup Tech VIE = 3 yrs, then IE 25
RMS Clk VIE = 3 yrs, CE = 5 yrs then IE 25
Sig OP VIE = 4yrs, CE = 5 yrs then IE 25


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## D-n-A (27 May 2005)

armour is now 5? wow.. no one told me this  haha


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## Fusilier (27 May 2005)

Yup, VIE - 5yr, CE 4yr and then IE 25....apparently it takes awhile to become OFP on the Coyote.  Though if guys would remember to open the hatch before trying to get out they might retain a little more  ;D just kidding!  It's a complex piece of equip


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## c4th (27 May 2005)

slacker said:
			
		

> Also, I don't equate adulthood with gambling away three years.   If I'd been in the army three years already, or knew a single soul who had been, it might be a little bit more of an informed decision.



Three years is bugger all.  Yes at 17 it's 17% of you life, but at 32 it's only 9%.  You could gamble away 2-3 in college, 4-5 in university, 6 months to death in some dead end job.  At the end you will have nothing or even more likely debt which equates to less than nothing.

Here's the true gamble:  Anti-up three years.  If you hate it you will get a certificate (pat-on-the-back) and up to $5,000 to reintegrate into society.  If you love it you get another 3 year contract starting at $49,000 / year (in today's dollars).

Worst case, you travel and work with the best people you'll ever meet.


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## Zombie (27 May 2005)

c4th said:
			
		

> Three years is bugger all.   Yes at 17 it's 17% of you life, but at 32 it's only 9%.   You could gamble away 2-3 in college, 4-5 in university, 6 months to death in some dead end job.   At the end you will have nothing or even more likely debt which equates to less than nothing.
> 
> Here's the true gamble:   Anti-up three years.   If you hate it you will get a certificate (pat-on-the-back) and up to $5,000 to reintegrate into society.   If you love it you get another 3 year contract starting at $49,000 / year (in today's dollars).
> 
> Worst case, you travel and work with the best people you'll ever meet.



Well said...


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## Canadian Sig (27 May 2005)

Actually you wont get the $5000.00 unless you do 10 years or more.


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## Fry (27 May 2005)

would he or she receive all of the money that they paid into their pension?


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## Canadian Sig (29 May 2005)

Yes he or she would get a return of contributions. The education benifits have undergone alot of change in the last while so they may not be available to a person getting out after less than 10 years


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## Taylor187 (29 May 2005)

Fusilier, to save me a question to ask the Recruiter I was wondering if you could tell me whats the VIE is for a Material Tech? As I've now I'm just assuming its around 5 years for the ammount of training time involved in the trade.

Thanks


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## Pea (29 May 2005)

Taylor187,

If you look on the attachment called TOS Sequence by occupation, on one of Fusilier's earlier posts there is a list for the trades.
For MAT TECH it states a VIE of 4 years, then a CE of 5 years, and then the IE of 25 years.

Hope that helps.


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## Taylor187 (29 May 2005)

Apologies, when I read through this thread I ignored it as a signature and not an attachment.

Thanks


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## Invalesco (18 Jul 2005)

Hello, I'm sorry if this has already been posted but what I'm wondering is, I would like to join Infantry. I have heard that it's a three year contract. Is that true? If that is, what i'm wondering is, after I fulfill  my contract , after three years, I'm i allowed to leave the army? Because I also have some future goals of coming back to my home town and joining the Police Force. I'm not sure exactly if that's what I would like to do after 3 years of being in the infantry, i might just stay in the army, but I just would like to know what's up before I enlist.

Thank you


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## Island Ryhno (18 Jul 2005)

Yes, you can leave the army without penalty after your contract is up. I would check with your recruiter about the contract lenght however as they have changed. I don't know what the basic engagement is for 031, for armoured 011 it's five years now. Good luck


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## CF-22 Raptor (6 Oct 2005)

I was wondering...

If I had the CF subsidize my university education for a Com Sci, I'd go through officer training during the summer for the next 4 years, and after graduation I'd serve an additional 5 years. So if I would like to renew the contract afterwards, how long would it be? Would it jump straight up to 25 years?

I'm interested in being a communications officer. My understanding of the job is that you are responsible for setting up and maintaining the base's computers and communications equipment and buying new equipment. 

Basically after the 5 year contract is up, I'm thinking of applying at IBM or Intel and become a programmer. My question is, since a Comm. officer sets up and uses the computers rather then writing the software, do you think employers would transfer me to networking? Or even worse, not hire me because I haven't used those skills since university?


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## kincanucks (6 Oct 2005)

CF-22 Raptor said:
			
		

> I was wondering...
> 
> If I had the CF subsidize my university education for a Com Sci, I'd go through officer training during the summer for the next 4 years, and after graduation I'd serve an additional 5 years. So if I would like to renew the contract afterwards, how long would it be? Would it jump straight up to 25 years?
> 
> ...



As as ROTP Sigs O you initial contract is for 13 years then you can go for an IE of 12 for 25.


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## FITSUMO (6 Oct 2005)

"Basically after the 5 year contract is up, I'm thinking of applying at IBM or Intel and become a programmer. My question is, since a Comm. officer sets up and uses the computers rather then writing the software, do you think employers would transfer me to networking? Or even worse, not hire me because I haven't used those skills since university? "

Seeing as my current civvie job is like an IBM or Intel, let me add something to your idea, In todays job market, where there have been 45000+ layoffs(yes you are reading that number right,  think Nortel, JDS, and alcatel) in the past 4 years, it is uncommon to get a job as a designer/programmer if you do not have the expirence.  It is also very hard to get a job in networking/IT as alot of those people that have 15+ years of work expirence  are also looking.  A lot of low level design work is being shipped to companies like wipro in india, and the integration is being compiled and cleaned up here. Short term contracts are the new way of doing high-tech in canada

A question, and maybe I am looking at it from a different angle as I am in the research and development role and I am waiting to get my job offer with the CF which I plan on a nice 20-25 years of service, do you think its really good to annouce that you are going to use the system and then Jet, after the CF has trained you and spent alot of money on you?


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## CF-22 Raptor (6 Oct 2005)

What a bright future we live in!

Fistumo, could you tell me more about the kind of research you do and what trade are you planning to do in the CF?


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## FITSUMO (6 Oct 2005)

I am in telecom R&D, right now I am very involved with test engineering but have done traffic and performance testing and product verification, I have acted as team lead, and team technologist( interface with design and verification) the trade for me is FCS( thats what I was selected for).....any other questions let me know via PM and I will answer asap.  Yeah the days of going to university and then getting a great job are not as common as they once were.  Not saying its impossible, but it is not as easy.  

cheers


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## CF-22 Raptor (7 Oct 2005)

Indeed....better start planning the next 20 years of my life.


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## CF-22 Raptor (26 Dec 2005)

I'm interested in joining the Reserves in the future and I was wondering if the contract lengths discussed here will apply for the Reserves as well. What would the initial contract length for a reserve rifleman be? And What would the length be if it were to be renewed? Also, I was wondering if anybody could tell me what trade the Reserves at the Toronto bases train and if there are any reserve bases in or near Waterloo. 

I left a message at the Toronto Reserve recruiting centre, but so far no reply. Is there any way that I could reach them?


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## Ex-Dragoon (26 Dec 2005)

Right now you would not get a reply as they are on their Christmas Leave


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## kincanucks (26 Dec 2005)

_I was wondering if the contract lengths discussed here will apply for the Reserves as well. What would the initial contract length for a reserve rifleman be? _ No and you sign up for the reserves for an indefinite period, meaning you can get out when you want and usually stay in for as long as you want.


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## CF-22 Raptor (27 Dec 2005)

So you can stay in the Reserves for as long as you want and leave the reserves whenever you want? That sounds very conveneint. Is that only for Infantry, or does this apply for all Reserve trades?

Actually I left a message in early December...


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## kincanucks (27 Dec 2005)

You can stay in the reserves as long as the reserves wants you and that is the same for all of the reserves.


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## Roy Harding (27 Dec 2005)

CF-22 Raptor said:
			
		

> So you can stay in the Reserves for as long as you want and leave the reserves whenever you want? That sounds very conveneint. Is that only for Infantry, or does this apply for all Reserve trades?
> 
> ...



All Reserve Trades.  

Of course, in order to remain in the Reserves for "as long as you want", you must comply with certain conditions - IE, personal fitness, military discipline, regular parading (you can't stop showing up for six months, then come back when you feel like it), etcetera.  It's not quite the revolving door you seem to have pictured in your mind.

There are many more qualified than I who will be glad to fill you in on the details - the fact remains that when you join the CF, Regular or Reserve, you are committed to some extent - that commitment is, perhaps, less stringent and defined in the Reserves, but it remains a commitment.

Good luck to you.


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## CF-22 Raptor (27 Dec 2005)

Okay, thanks for the information. But I'm still a bit confused with this "parading" thing, what is it exactly? Are they military drills or something? 

And does anybody know if there are any Reserve Bases in Waterloo? Also what kind of Reserve trades the Toronto bases offer?


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## Roy Harding (27 Dec 2005)

CF-22 Raptor said:
			
		

> Okay, thanks for the information. But I'm still a bit confused with this "parading" thing, what is it exactly? Are they military drills or something?
> 
> And does anybody know if there are any Reserve Bases in Waterloo? Also what kind of Reserve trades the Toronto bases offer?



The term "parade" simply means (in the context to which I was referring), a military training day or evening.  I apologize for the unnecessary and unintentional confusion.

As for the remainder of your questions, I don't know if there are any reserve Units (NOT Bases) in Waterloo, and I'm sure that the entire spectrum of trades can be found in various Toronto based units.  Perhaps you should check out the official CF site at www.dnd.ca , or contact your local recruiting office.


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## the burkalator (26 Apr 2006)

hey, 

I heard that if someone is going to be joining the reg force , your first contract is five years instead of 3 does anyone know if this is true? 

Cheers, 

Matt


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## medicineman (26 Apr 2006)

Depends on the trade  - Medics are 6 for a basic engagement now.

MM


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## George Wallace (26 Apr 2006)

I suppose you used the SEARCH FUNCTION, which I am about to do and then I will merge your question with all those other ones asking the exact same thing - How Long Is A Contract?

........And......my Lord......look at all the answers I found!


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## Hawkeye (13 Mar 2007)

Are you bound to the contract when you sign your application or only after youve been accepted and sworn in?


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## LeonTheNeon (13 Mar 2007)

Only once you have sworn in.  You can apply without making any kind of commitment.  Also, keep in mind, that some people do find that during training the military isn't for them and can ask to be released, so even post swearing your oath you are not 100% trapped.  Of course, joining shouldn't be done on a whim and thinking if you don't like it you can just quit.


(EDIT: here's two links to a myriad rules and regs about releasing)

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch015_e.asp
 http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/015-02_e.asp


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## narushima (17 Mar 2007)

Well your kinda lucky, 3years is nothing...I signed for 9years


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## Cobra_striker (22 Mar 2007)

I just want to know. If i sign for 3 years and like it. Then go for another 10 or whatever. Will i lose out on anything if i that someone who signed up for a term of say about 15 years, because i was unsure. Or what? I just want the best possible experience in the CF and if that means throwing myself into a 15 year TOS rather then an experimental (best term i could think of for it) 3 year TOS then i would more then gladly do it.


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## PO2FinClk (22 Mar 2007)

The new TOS gives you an initial VIE of 3 to 5 years depending on your occupation. This is then followed (in the vast majority of cases) by an IE25. So in essence you would be signing a new TOS for a period ranging from 20 to 22 years.

Do you lose any benefits by signing? Provided you make it to 10 years before you choose to get out (break TOS) to have a move back to your place of enrolement, then you would not.


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## Cobra_striker (22 Mar 2007)

Alright thank you. And ya the years i used were just for examples. Thats good to know


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## Pea (27 Mar 2007)

I just received my offer and my VIE is 6 years, for Medical Technician.


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## CFR FCS (17 Jun 2007)

The Variable Initial Engagement (VIE) are based on many factors including training time required to make a soldier (any military member) employable, that is trained in their occupation. The length changes as the training time and strength (size) of the occupations change. They adjust all the newest change just came out for Crewman, now 3 years vice 5.
The VIE allows the member to adjust to military life and see if it's something they really want to do for a longer period. Conversely it allows the CF to take a look at you and determine if they want to offer you a long term commitment. Needs change and the staffing levels change due to transformation then some occupations may decrease in size or become absorbed with others. 

Note that subsidized education plans like ROTP and NCMSEP have different VIE based on number of months of subsidized education. 

Your friendly CFRC can provide the latest up to date information.


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## George Wallace (17 Jun 2007)

CFR FCS said:
			
		

> They adjust all the newest change just came out for Crewman, now 3 years vice 5.



Verify the above.

Was it not always 3 years in the past?

(Are you a Francophone?  I ask, because of the way you write.)


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## kincanucks (19 Jun 2007)

_The VIE allows the member to adjust to military life and see if it's something they really want to do for a longer period._

How about the VIE allows the CF to get its money's worth from investing in training people?  If a person is not adjusted to military life by the time they finish trades training perhaps they will never be.


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## brendanhm1 (24 Sep 2008)

If im reading this thread right, the contract for an infantry officer under the ROTP is 13 years? So basically 13 - 4=9 years actual service. The other 4 being university and summers?

Ive read the general rule of thumb for contracts is 2 years times years subsidized. (4yrs degree*2=8...i guess 9 years is close enough)

So heres my REAL question: A reservist with BMQ/SQ/QL3 applies for ROTP in year 3 of university. Only one year is going to be subsidized under the ROTP. Does this mean the contract would only be 3 years including that subsidized year of education and summer?


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## The_Falcon (24 Sep 2008)

torunisfun said:
			
		

> If im reading this thread right, the contract for an infantry officer under the ROTP is 13 years? So basically 13 - 4=9 years actual service. The other 4 being university and summers?
> 
> Ive read the general rule of thumb for contracts is 2 years times years subsidized. (4yrs degree*2=8...i guess 9 years is close enough)
> 
> *So heres my REAL question: A reservist with BMQ/SQ/QL3 applies for ROTP in year 3 of university. Only one year is going to be subsidized under the ROTP. Does this mean the contract would only be 3 years including that subsidized year of education and summer?*



That is a question that won't be answered conclusively here.  When you put in your transfer, the CT folks at DMCA will be the ones figuring all that out.


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## brendanhm1 (24 Sep 2008)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> That is a question that won't be answered conclusively here.  When you put in your transfer, the CT folks at DMCA will be the ones figuring all that out.



I see, I just wouldn't want to put in for a CT without knowing the answer to these questions.

And I have tried recruiting. They sort of "bypass" the question...


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## aesop081 (24 Sep 2008)

torunisfun said:
			
		

> And I have tried recruiting. They sort of "bypass" the question...



So keep asking.........


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## BC Old Guy (25 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> So keep asking.........



Actually, the CFRC may not have the answer either - and it may take some time to get someone up the chain to provide them with an answer. Th

As well, there is a difference between obligatory service, and VIE.  And depending on time in and whether the CT staff consider the current level of training as sufficicent to be considered as occupationally qualified, they may decide to offer UTPNCM rather than ROTP.

You won't know for sure until you apply and get an offer.


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## adaminc (25 Sep 2008)

I know no one asked so far but the LCIS Tech contract is initially 5 years, then there is a choice between a 3 year or 20 year, if you choose the 3 year, after that you have a choice of 20 year minus time served, so about 17 years.


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## The_Falcon (25 Sep 2008)

torunisfun said:
			
		

> I see, I just wouldn't want to put in for a CT without knowing the answer to these questions.
> 
> And I have tried recruiting. They sort of "bypass" the question...



They bypass the question, becuase they aren't in charge of CT's and making offers related to CT's anymore.


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## c_canuk (21 Oct 2008)

I'm in the process of getting my CT, on my message they offered me VIE(4)

now as I've got almost 10 years in res and I'm keeping all my courses and rank, people have said I should try to get a CE instead... other than being required to serve 4 years are there any other consequences of being on a VIE rather than a CE?

IE Annual Leave, promotion rate etc?


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## George Wallace (21 Oct 2008)

You are an "unknown" quality, so I doubt you will get a CE on enrolment.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Oct 2008)

ADM (HR-Mil) Instruction 05/05 covers all the info on the Reg Force Terms of Service.

More specifically, ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 05/05 ANNEX A APPENDIX 1 covers in detail the TOS Sequence By Occupations for all of the NCM and Officer occupations, current as of 28 Feb 08.


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## c_canuk (22 Oct 2008)

> 17. TOS on Component Transfer: Members who transfer from the Reserve Force into the Regular Force on will be enrolled on a VIE IAW Appendix 1 of Annex A. However skilled members who transfer from the Reserve Force into the Regular Force who are assigned an occupation in which they are considered skilled, may be offered a reduced initial engagement period. CFRG, in consultation with the *Career Manager, is authorized to offer these skilled members a CE instead of a VIE*. The CE must be for a period of a minimum of 18 months to a maximum of the length of the VIE for the occupation to which members are assigned. The actual period will be based on the needs of the CF at the time of the offer.



this confirms that I can get a CE TOS, however my question remains... what is the difference between VIE, CE and IE beyond the lengths of required service?

if I'm enrolled in a CE is the first 4 years in VIE written off as already served? Are there other career implications?

from what I understand, when I sign a TOS I commit to serving the CF for the amount of time specified on the TOS, the VIE is different for each trade and is used to keep you in long enough to get service from the member to recoup the cost of training, the CE is only manditory for some trades, and an IE is issued after CE to bring you out to 25 years. 

I don't understand what the technical difference between a VIE, CE and IE are beyond the lengths and order in which they are offered. Is that all there is too it?

if I go on as a VIE(4) and perform well enough to be offered CE(3), once I complete the CE will I be given the option to sign an IE to bring be to 19 years + 6 perviously served(class A at 1:4 and Class B/C 1:1) or is the TOS and pensionable time completely seperate.

if seperate, once I have 25 years pensionable time in, can I release without penalty to my pension, or will I have to complete IE 25, or will I be able to request an IE of 19 years on termination of my CE?


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## BC Old Guy (22 Oct 2008)

> this confirms that I can get a CE TOS,


- Sorry - the para you quoted only gives CFRG the authority to offer a CE.  If they offered a VIE or IE25 contract, and you only wished to have a CE, you could ask, if you qualify -however that will delay the process, and may not result in a change to the original offer.

The terms of service are set up to provide some predictability to the system of enrolling, training and employing people.  With the recent changes, the VIE is just that - the initial engagement for new entrants to the system, with the length of the terms of service varying by occupation and entry plan.  Since the "model" recruit for the VIE has no military experience, it is set up to provide the basic training, and get the person to a point that they can be useful in an operation, yet short enough so that those who are not certain they wish to spend a lifetime in the military do not have an additional institutional policy discouraging their participation.

A CE is offered for a variety of reasons, such as the individual not having enough time left to CRA to complete a VIE, but who has skills that can be useful to the CF during that time, and which are needed.

An IE is the Terms Of Service (TOS) used to provide a "typical" person with a normal career path, and lead for those who wish, and who are selected, for an extended career - the IPS that takes them to CRA.

The contract in the terms of service provides for various incentives for an individual to complete those terms of service - such as severance pay and paid move on release, etc, some of which are reduced or not available if the individual does not complete their terms of service.



> [if I'm enrolled in a CE is the first 4 years in VIE written off as already served? /quote]
> No - you just won't have served a VIE.  Depending on the occupation, your age, and the requirements of the service, once the CE is completed, you could be released or offered other terms of service that are in place at that time (so technically you could go from a CE to a IE25). Some occupations have provided a CE after the VIE as they found that many people were reluctant to sign on for an IE25 after only 2-3 yrs in the military, much of which was spent on training.
> 
> 
> ...


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## c_canuk (23 Oct 2008)

my current unit's (the one I'm on class B with) Reg F chief clerk is recommending I request CE rather than accept VIE, but if there aren't any carreer/pension implications it's not worth holding up the process yet again to get my message ammended. I've already had to get my marital status, Recruiting allowance and posting changed, so I don't think they want to hear from me again.

I just wondered if there was reason enough to request yet another message ammendment and risk annoying the pers at DMCA over this issue.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Oct 2008)

From my read of Instruction 05/05, you can turn down the offer with the VIE and request a CE, which will go to the CM shop.  Being that it is a CT, I am not sure I'd mess with the offer myself.

In the case of someone already on their VIE, they get the offer for IE25 2 years before their VIE ends, so they have 2 years to determine their next TOS...in your case, it is holding up your CT.

My question is...why would you care if it was a VIE or CE either, unless you aren't planning on staying in as long as the VIE is for?


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## c_canuk (23 Oct 2008)

> From my read of Instruction 05/05, you can turn down the offer with the VIE and request a CE, which will go to the CM shop.



that is my understanding also



> Being that it is a CT, I am not sure I'd mess with the offer myself.



... the offer for CT you initially get is based on what is best for the CF, not based on what is best for the member. 

ie on the first message they offered me no recruiting allowance, even though Canforgen 146/08 states I'm entitled to one, Res that go through the CT route need to carefully read their offer letter and negotiate terms before agreeing to it. thats part of the process. however I've already had my message ammended once and don't want to be a pain in the glutes if there is no real benifit.




> In the case of someone already on their VIE, they get the offer for IE25 2 years before their VIE ends, so they have 2 years to determine their next TOS...in your case, it is holding up your CT.



the reserves don't have TOS, so this is all new to me and I thought there was more to it than what I was reading and the advise of others leads me to believe there might be.




> My question is...why would you care if it was a VIE or CE either, unless you aren't planning on staying in as long as the VIE is for?



I didn't until people were telling me that I might be able to go to CE in the same tone of voice they tell me I'm entitled to a Recruiting allowance.   ;D 

I just wanted to verify that 19 years from now when I have 25 years pensionable time, if I decide to pull the pin, there isn't going to be a nasty suprise.


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## Eye In The Sky (23 Oct 2008)

c_canuk said:
			
		

> I just wanted to verify that 19 years from now when I have 25 years pensionable time, if I decide to pull the pin, there isn't going to be a nasty suprise.



I had the same question and never got a solid answer (I had a buy-back of 10 years PFTPS).  The answer I got was "you will need do the IE25 but when you get out, you will have a pension/severance for 35 years of service".

But I have no reference to confirm that...and at the time I thought "I guess I'll worry about that later"...


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## c_canuk (23 Oct 2008)

yeah, no one seems to know, though in the back of my mind I thought there was a canforgen or change of policy somewhere that said that was no longer the case and you could count the time at the start... I guess I 'll cross that bridge when I get to it. it's a difference of getting out when I'm 48 or 54 so I'm not all that concerned.

thanks for your input.


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## TimReo (6 Apr 2016)

Hello.

I was curious about applying to either Combat Engineer, Communicator Research Operator, or Intelligence Operator.  I read that the standard years of Service is 3 years, is it longer for specific trades? Does time in the forces start after you finish Basic and are fully trained? I know officers get to serve longer.

I looked at a few posts here but they were from 2005 so i wasn't too sure what they were the same or if anything has changed.

Any help would be great, thanks in advance!


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## DAA (7 Apr 2016)

TimReo said:
			
		

> Hello.
> I was curious about applying to either Combat Engineer (4 years), Communicator Research Operator (4 years), or Intelligence Operator (5 years).  I read that the standard years of Service is 3 years, is it longer for specific trades? Does time in the forces start after you finish Basic and are fully trained? I know officers get to serve longer.
> I looked at a few posts here but they were from 2005 so i wasn't too sure what they were the same or if anything has changed.
> Any help would be great, thanks in advance!



Your initial Terms of Service (TOS) with the CF will be based on the occupation that you are hired into, so each occupations TOS will vary.  Initial TOS for the three occupations is shown above.


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## mariomike (7 Apr 2016)

Saw this in Ask a CAF Recruiter. Adding here as a future reference,

Question about Service length


			
				TimReo said:
			
		

> I read that the standard years of Service is 3 years, is it longer for specific trades?





			
				DAA said:
			
		

> Your initial Terms of Service (TOS) with the CF will be based on the occupation that you are hired into, so each occupations TOS will vary.



See also,

VARIABLE INITIAL ENGAGEMENT LENGTHS BY OCCUPATION ( NCM and Officers )
http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/MOSID_and_MOC

Contract Length
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+contract&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=n3DtVvKdIsqC8QfFo4GQBA&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+contract+length

VIE ( VARIABLE INITIAL ENGAGEMENT )
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+contract&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=n3DtVvKdIsqC8QfFo4GQBA&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+VIE


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## TimReo (8 Apr 2016)

Thanks for the info.  [


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## Mike Wazowski (8 May 2016)

Hello there people of the forum. I am new to this forum and registered so I could ask a question. I'm planning to sign up for the military (Infantry Soldier) when I am 20 years old, currently I am 15 years old. I just want to know how long I have to serve until I could leave the army and get a civilian job. If I do join the army when I am 20 years old, I plan to retire once I am 30-35 years old, would that be possible?

Just in case you wanted to know, I plan on joining the army not because of the video games that I play which glorifies violence and killing, such as Call of Duty and Counter Strike. I plan on joining the army to understand what it means to become a man, and also to actually become a man. I also understand the risks and challenges of being a Canadian soldier.

Thank you in advance.


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## DAA (11 May 2016)

The current initial Terms of Service (TOS) for Infmn (NCM) is 3 years.  After that, you will be offered further Terms of Service which you can choose to either accept or decline.  If you choose to accept your second TOS, you can release from the CF at any time after that but must provide a minimum of 6 months notice.


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## mariomike (11 May 2016)

Saw this question asked and answered in Ask a CAF Recruiter. Adding here for reference,

Service Time Question  
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/122987.0.html
"I just want to know how long I have to serve until I could leave the army and get a civilian job."


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## Loachman (11 May 2016)

Welcome to Army.ca, Mike

You are doing the right thing by investigating your options. Please take some of the time available to you to explore older threads on this Site, especially those stickied at the top of each sub-forum. You'll find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.

Why wait until 20?

And, if you are going to wait that long, consider the Reserve Force (part-time), if there is a unit near you.

I am going to move this thread shortly, into the Infantry area, wherein open discussion is possible.


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## Mike Wazowski (13 May 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> The current initial Terms of Service (TOS) for Infmn (NCM) is 3 years.  After that, you will be offered further Terms of Service which you can choose to either accept or decline.  If you choose to accept your second TOS, you can release from the CF at any time after that but must provide a minimum of 6 months notice.


Thank you for the information!


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## Mike Wazowski (13 May 2016)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Welcome to Army.ca, Mike
> 
> You are doing the right thing by investigating your options. Please take some of the time available to you to explore older threads on this Site, especially those stickied at the top of each sub-forum. You'll find answers to questions that have not even occurred to you yet.
> 
> ...


Sure, I'll explore the older threads in this forum, Thanks. Is twenty years old too late? I'm waiting until I'm twenty because I want to be somewhat mature when I go into the military. I don't plan on joining the Reserve Force because I want to be a Full-Time Infantry Soldier.


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## Loachman (16 May 2016)

No, it's not too late, but, if it's something that you really want to do, why delay?

As for your retirement plan, it takes twenty-five years to qualify for a full pension, which would be fifty percent of the average of your best five years of pay, and the pension increases in two-percent increments each year thereafter, to a maximum of seventy percent at the thirty-five year point. If you join at seventeen, you would have that fifty-percent pension at age 42.


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## Mike Wazowski (16 May 2016)

Ohhh, that's really good information. So what, I can sign up as a full-time Infantry Soldier at 17? I thought that was only part time. I'm scared of joining the army when I'm 17 because my mom said I'm immature. Anyways, I'll do some more research and think about the idea of joining when I'm 17. Thanks for the information, Loachman.


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## Mike Wazowski (16 May 2016)

By the way, how will signing up at 17 work? I still want to go to school and at least, get a bachelor's degree.


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## PuckChaser (16 May 2016)

You can't sign up full time and complete your normal high school diploma with your peers. You can sign up for the reserves, and finish school and go to university all while serving on night a week and a weekend a month, along with working in the summers.


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## Loachman (16 May 2016)

I have moved this so that others can offer advice as well.

You have many options, Mike.

You can apply for ROTP and have your education fully-funded and be paid while you do it. If you truly wish to be an NCM (Non-Commissioned Member), that would not work for you, however. You'd not be the only NCM with a degree if you decided to get a degree before joining as such as you currently plan. Read the threads in the  RMC, CMR, ROTP forum anyway and see what you think. There are other threads that discuss commissioned versus non-commissioned options.

The Reserve Force is a good option, as it is part-time and many younger members are high school students as well. I started out that way. It is a good way to see if you enjoy military life as there is no commitment. It is possible to switch to the Regular Force later, if you wish, but that is not always a smooth process. There are threads wherein Component Transfers (CT) are discussed, so I suggest that you read those as well.

You've got a couple of years to investigate the possibilities, so take your time, read what's here, think about it, and ask questions if there is anything that requires further clarification.


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## mariomike (16 May 2016)

Mike Wazowski said:
			
		

> I just want to know how long I have to serve until I could leave the army and get a civilian job.



You may find these discussions of interest,

Contract Lengths (Merged)
http://army.ca/forums/threads/30846.75.html
4 pages.



			
				Mike Wazowski said:
			
		

> If I do join the army when I am 20 years old, I plan to retire once I am 30-35 years old, would that be possible?



Regular Force members who enrolled on or after 1 March 2007

You are entitled to an immediate unreduced pension when you:
•have 25 years (9,131 days) of CF service; 
•are age 60 with at least two years of pensionable service; 
•are age 55 with 30 years of pensionable service; 
•have 10 years of pensionable service and are released due to disability; or 
•are involuntarily released due to a reduction in the Canadian Armed Forces and either: ◦have 20 years of pensionable service; or 
◦are age 55 or older with 10 years of pensionable service. 
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pension-reg-post-march-2007/career-events.page?#s2q1

See also,

Pension (merged)
http://army.ca/forums/threads/106617.75.html
4 pages.
"Thus, after 25 years you would receive 50%.  The maximum is 70%, paid for 35 years of service."

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


----------



## neacha67 (7 Mar 2018)

Hi, can someone please tell me the TOS for Stewards?
Thanks!

Laura


----------



## da1root (8 Mar 2018)

neacha67 said:
			
		

> Hi, can someone please tell me the TOS for Stewards?
> Thanks!
> 
> Laura



The initial contract length for Stewards is 4 years.


----------



## neacha67 (12 Mar 2018)

Excellent thanks so much!


----------



## JKirke (15 Jan 2019)

Hello All,

Anyone aware of the TOS for the following:

- AVN Tech
- ACS Tech
- AVS Tech

Cheers,


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## da1root (31 Jan 2019)

JKirke said:
			
		

> Hello All,
> 
> Anyone aware of the TOS for the following:
> 
> ...



The initial contract length for all 3 of those occupations is 5 years.


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