# Officer Pay Confusion, please clarify



## Huxley88 (18 Jun 2008)

Im planning on joining the reserves while Im in University next year being there from ages 21-25 until I get my Bachelors Degree. After that Im considering joining the Canadian Forces as an officer but I am very confused about something. 

It's the pay, I see here that your only payed 42k a year and you have to wait 5 years to be paid 66k a year. I can make 40k a year in Customs so why would I consider the Military? http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/resources/payandbenefits_en.aspx?bhcp=1 

Then I click on a Adobe link and I added up the Officers pay for Second Lieutenant and it was about 55-60k for 2007. I don't get it which is it? 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/engraph/dppd_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=28&docid=1

I know it's not all about the money but if I can make 40k a year in Customs then why would I consider Military Service?


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## armyvern (18 Jun 2008)

Huxley88 said:
			
		

> Im planning on joining the reserves while Im in University next year being there from ages 21-25 until I get my Bachelors Degree. After that Im considering joining the Canadian Forces as an officer but I am very confused about something.
> 
> It's the pay, I see here that your only payed 42k a year and you have to wait 5 years to be paid 66k a year. I can make 40k a year in Customs so why would I consider the Military? http://www.forces.ca/v3/engraph/resources/payandbenefits_en.aspx?bhcp=1
> 
> ...



Does customs pay your tuition fees?

The first 4 years of most Officer's careers are spent while in University. They are getting paid the lowest level the first year and for 3 years afterwards you see the pay level go up ... to go to school - while the CF is covering the costs of their tuition/books etc. Certainly seems like a pretty good deal to me.


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## VM (18 Jun 2008)

yea customs may pay more. RCMP pays more as well. You join the military cause you want to be in the military. If you want to be in customs just as much as the military than it will be all about the money. Otherwise, it certianly isn't. 

As a side note, 42k a year and up to 66k after 5 years is pretty darn good. And thats not even mentioning the great benefits (like paying for your schooling)


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## Huxley88 (18 Jun 2008)

Ya but Im planning to go into University first and the Direct Officer entry thing while remaining in reserves. Im just really confused, if you see the pay for second Lieutenant for April 2007 its about 55-60k a year and Canadian Forces has 42k to start out? My parents are paying for half my university anyway! 


http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/engraph/dppd_coverpage_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=28&docid=1   What is it 55k or 42k? I heard the 42k figure is only a broad outlook.


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## SupersonicMax (18 Jun 2008)

ROTP 2Lt:  Around 49K a year.
DEO:  I would expect a little lower, not quite sure.

Max


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## Huxley88 (18 Jun 2008)

I see, but what If I decided to join as an officer in Reserves after I get a degree and lets say in 2 more years I become a Captain would I be able to transfer to Reg force? I don't understand why you would need to wait 5 years until your paid more than 42k, I thought your pay was based on rank! Im not a greedy person it's just I feel at least 50k should be a starting range for officer since the military is a big commitment.


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## blacktriangle (18 Jun 2008)

Hi I'm a Private. I make even less then what you would as an officer, and do so quite happily. I could easily be earning more right now, but I do my job because I like it. I don't know what your situation is, but if money is the only thing you care about, please do not lead me into battle. 

Thanks.


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## Welshy (18 Jun 2008)

As a direct entry officer like you said you would be at Pay Level C, which is 3468$ a month for a 2LT. You could join under ROTP, get paid to go to school and have your school paid for and come out with a pay level of 48,000$ a year base salary.

Also I am pretty sure that you cannot join the reserves as an officer before you even have the degree, you would still have to be an officer cadet until the completion of that degree and your pay would be based on the number of days served a month.

Do some searches of the site and learn the difference between reserve and reg force, it will help you make a decision. Also talk to a recruiter about it, it is there job to set you on the right path.


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## SupersonicMax (18 Jun 2008)

Huxley88 said:
			
		

> I see, but what If I decided to join as an officer in Reserves after I get a degree and lets say in 2 more years I become a Captain would I be able to transfer to Reg force? I don't understand why you would need to wait 5 years until your paid more than 42k, I thought your pay was based on rank! Im not a greedy person it's just I feel at least 50k should be a starting range for officer since the military is a big commitment.



Don't know how CT pay works, but normally for a DEO, you will do 1 year as a 2Lt, 2 years as a Lt and then you get promoted to Capt.  Pays goes up accordingly.

Max


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## Redeye (18 Jun 2008)

Welshy said:
			
		

> As a direct entry officer like you said you would be at Pay Level C, which is 3468$ a month for a 2LT. You could join under ROTP, get paid to go to school and have your school paid for and come out with a pay level of 48,000$ a year base salary.
> 
> Also I am pretty sure that you cannot join the reserves as an officer before you even have the degree, you would still have to be an officer cadet until the completion of that degree and your pay would be based on the number of days served a month.
> 
> Do some searches of the site and learn the difference between reserve and reg force, it will help you make a decision. Also talk to a recruiter about it, it is there job to set you on the right path.



Not quite, in the Reserve you would be an Officer Cadet until you pass Common Army Phase at which point you're promoted to 2Lt, you then get promoted to Lt on completing DP1 in whatever trade you're in.  Three years from that you can be promoted to Captain.

To echo the original posters, it's not about the money.  If it's only about money to you then go to Customs or the RCMP or wherever else.


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## Welshy (18 Jun 2008)

Thanks for that clarification. You learn something every day.


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## George Wallace (19 Jun 2008)

Of course you are confused.  You should visit the CFRC and talk to someone and get "real time" answers.  You have confused Regular Force Pay and Reserve Force Pay.  You have confused Pay Scales for the different Officer Entry Plans.  You have confused the amount of time it takes to progress through those Pay Incentives, and through the ranks.  You have confused too many things here, and each post added to this topic only adds to the confusion, unless something is done to clarify it.

First off.  As a Reserve Officer going to University, you will not be earning anything near $40K a year.  You will be entitled to claim up to $2K per year after successfully completing your courses.  You may earn in the neighbourhood of $12K if you spend the summer as a Reservist.

If you go to http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/48593/post-424713.html#msg424713 you will find at the bottom, a table that explains the Letter Code in the various Reg Force Officer Pay Scales.


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## Huxley88 (19 Jun 2008)

Ill consider the Military in life, I should focus on getting into University next year if all goes well Ill have my Bachelors by the time Im 25. I do have an issue though, I have a "learning disability", no it doesn't mean Im stupid or anything I just learn differently than other people. Albert Einstein had one as did Thomas Edison and they where both smart enough. I don't have ADD,ADHD or Dyslexia I think it's just a minor one. In school the only accommodations I get is extra time on tests if I really need it. This is why I want to go into university first, since if I really do need extra time on a exam then Ill get it. I was told by the military that they don't care if you have a learning disability. Isn't going to university instead of going to RMC just as effective? I mean wouldn't you be the same age upon finishing and becoming and officer? 

Im just the type of guy who takes long to make the big decisions in life. Im just unsure of what I really want to do. Im attracted to the military because they do pay for all your education but Im just worried they won't give me extra time on tests because I need it sometimes.


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## Welshy (19 Jun 2008)

RMC is not the only choice in the ROTP program. Myself an many others on this board have attended civilian university. During the year you are student just like everyone else and in the summers you do your training. The accommodations at school has no bearing on whether you are military or not, it is simply between you and the institution. Like mention before, go to a recruiting center where someone can talk to you face to face and explain everything about the different entry plans and potential paths.


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## HCA123 (19 Jun 2008)

I pretty much did what you want to do - was a reservist during university and then DEO'd after I was done university. Here are some of the factors to think about before you get wrapped around the axel about starting at the roughly $42K DEO base salary (factors that made my salary a bit more than my fellow DEO's who were 'off the street'):

- Rank upon transfer from the reserves to the reg force (I started out at a higher IPC due to my previous experience/rank); and
- what degree you have (I was given extra IPC's because of the degree(s) I had)

If money is a big deciding factor, than I'll tell you that when I DEO'd I started out making $50K+. Realize that every case is different and the recruiting gods will treat each file individually... because they are different... different ranks upon transfer, different # of yrs in, different trades, different degrees, etc, etc. The reality of it is, as a starting salary - it's pretty good if you are just entering the work force as an entry level manager and I highly doubt there are many jobs out there spell out how your salary will be increasing every year for at least 13 years (3-4yrs in the 2Lt/Lt world and then 10 pay levels available at the Capt level).

As you'll hear many say on this forum - it's not about the money if you are joining the CF. What I can say from personal experience is that the job comes first (it has to) and the money falls somewhere in the list after that. I can't complain about either because I enjoy my job and I live quite comfortably on the salary I receive. I'm not saying that all you are thinking about is $$$ - however if you try and put the money first (ahead of the job you may decide to do), then you'll feel cheated about all the extra hours you work that you don't get paid for. This isn't a 9-5 job that pays overtime. Sometimes you'll have 30hrs weeks, sometimes you'll have 85+hrs weeks... still get the same monthly salary and for many of us, we still get the same job satisfaction out of either type of week.


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## SupersonicMax (19 Jun 2008)

If all that interest you in the military is the money , I really suggest you look for an other line of employment, you'll you make your life miserable.

Max


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## Huxley88 (19 Jun 2008)

It's not, It's just waiting for 4 years until your paid more...NCM's do it to seems like a drag to me when I can make that much in Customs.


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## Eye In The Sky (19 Jun 2008)

I have friends that make 66+ a year.

They have never

- jumped from a plane with army kit hanging off them.
- took part in or run a live grenade range.
- had the honour of being green, tired and dirty on a FTX July 1st and spent Canada Day really celebrating this great country.
- been privileged to be given the opportunity to train, lead and mold some of Canada's sharpest young minds; our new recruits and soldiers.
- had the same feeling I have when O Canada is played at a Halifax Mooseheads game
- looked at a vet on Rememberance Day and had a smick about what those gents went thru based on my own little experiences of being tired/hot/cold/hungry etc.

There is so much more to serving than the $.  I've been in 19 years next month, have never been paid 66k during any of those years and I would not trade them for a 6 digit suit and tie job.  And now, in my 19th year, the CF has given me another opportunity to do something different again.  There's No Life Like It!


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## Loachman (19 Jun 2008)

If all that you are interested in is money, this is not the career for you, and you are not the person for us.

Forget about the money. Go to a recruiting centre and see if you are interested in who we are, what we do, and why we do it instead. Make your decision based upon that.


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## PPCLI Guy (19 Jun 2008)

Huxley88 said:
			
		

> since if I really do need extra time on a exam then Ill get it. I Im attracted to the military because they do pay for all your education but Im just worried they won't give me extra time on tests because I need it sometimes.



 I will try to be delicate............which is, admittedly, not my long suit.

If you need extra time to make decisions, then perhaps being an officer is not for you.


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## MJP (19 Jun 2008)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I will try to be delicate............which is, admittedly, not my long suit.



Someone delved into their Scotch I see.


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## Towards_the_gap (19 Jun 2008)

Right huxley, I have cut and pasted a few of your choice quotes so that I can respond in kind to each. I may sound a little harsh in this, but it's beginning to seem like you have a very chippy attitude that you may wish to reconsider if you want any help or advice from this forum;



> I know it's not all about the money but if I can make 40k a year in Customs then why would I consider Military Service?



Let's see, whilst I'm sure customs has it's fair share of excitement (''how many cigarettes do you have sir''), as a customs officer would you ever have the chance to experience:

-the absolute rush of a well executed live fire company attack;
-the pure childish fun of ranges, be it when you're firing a 25mm cannon or using plastic explosive to blow things up;
-the camaraderie and brotherhood born of all the good times, but also born of all the hard times;
-the knowledge that 99.9% of the population do not have the cojones to do what you do, and are for the most part jealous of you.




> I don't understand why you would need to wait 5 years until your paid more than 42k, I thought your pay was based on rank! Im not a greedy person it's just I feel at least 50k should be a starting range for officer since the military is a big commitment



And you are basing this opinion on what? I went to war for under 50k, and this was in the british army where we didn't get 1/16th of the bonuses the canadians got for being on tour. As everyone else has said, IT'S NOT ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!!



> It's not, It's just waiting for 4 years until your paid more...NCM's do it to seems like a drag to me when I can make that much in Customs.



Should you earn your commission, I can guarantee you that the first 4 years will be far from a drag. And most likely less of a drag than confiscating excess duty free on some border crossing....



> Im just the type of guy who takes long to make the big decisions in life. Im just unsure of what I really want to do. Im attracted to the military because they do pay for all your education but Im just worried they won't give me extra time on tests because I need it sometimes.



Well where to start with this one!! First of all the training system is very accommodating. The mantra nowadays is 'train in, not select out' and I have seen many people, some of whom are borderline illiterate, pass through training with the help of dedicated NCO's and then become good soldiers. HOWEVER, bear in mind that as a young officer, particularly if you decide upon the combat arms, you will not always be able to ask for extra time. In a contact, your 'errr, I need a bit more time' will get people killed. Simple. Also, you have only said you are attracted to the military because they pay for your education. Is that it? Is that all that concerns you? Particularly when your parents are paying half anyways?


In closing, if 50k p.a. is your main criteria for a career choice, then by all means, join customs. Or Wal-Mart. Leave soldiering to the professionals.


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## jzaidi1 (19 Jun 2008)

OK,

Let me put it this way - and I really don't mean to come across as bragging either.  I make low 6 figures now but I would trade it all in a heartbeat to have the "priviledge" of joining the CF (as a Pilot mind you).  Yes, start pay is never a lot BUT the CF is investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in YOUR training (and Millions for Pilot).  Customs doesn't even come close to the life experience of the CF.  

Let me put it another way - If your life story was made into a book, would you want people to pick it up and read with amazement and a little envy, or would you want them to look at the cover and put it down.  That is the difference between the CF and Customs...

Money isn't as important as career fulfillment - I've learned that the hard way.

J


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## PPCLI Guy (19 Jun 2008)

MJP said:
			
		

> Someone delved into their Scotch I see.



Main Entry: long suit 
Function: noun 
Date: circa 1876 
1 : a holding of more than the average number of cards in a suit 
2 : strong suit, forte


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## CountDC (19 Jun 2008)

a lot of well said posts here. 

I myself had a young soldier that could barely read Dick and Jane books on a course I instructed.  When it came time for his test I took him to a seperate room and read the questions to him. Why was this done?  Because he was great at his trade - infantry.

I am usually the first to say dollars are important BUT it should not be your only or main motivator - as others have said this will only make your life miserable.  It will also make everyone under you miserable as they now have an unmotivated leader.

Please do me a favour - join the reserves and not the reg f to see if it really is the life for you. Take summer taskings of 2 months or more to get a good taste.  Note I said taskings not courses as a course will not give you the real taste of daily military life. If possible get at least one task with a reg f unit.

To be honest at this moment I would rather you go away and become the customs officer as I really do not want you as a leader in the military. On second thought forget the customs - go get a suit job on civvy street - I'd rather you not be in any uniform representing Canada.


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## Huxley88 (19 Jun 2008)

First of all, If I wish to join the military I will. I am aware it's not all about the money but I have sort of struggled in my education in life since I dropped out of private school and I was the delinquent undisciplined type in High School. Now I am 19 and done High school and will probably be going to night school to raise my marks taking some more U courses. I will join the reserves if I please, you have no authority to tell me otherwise. I have no criminal record and am a law abiding system. This is only the internet and you don't know me.


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## muskrat89 (19 Jun 2008)

I think this one has run its' course. Huxley senses the mood of the board; we've answered his questions, more or less.

If anyone has anything constructive to add, do so. Any more jabbing in either direction, and it will be locked.

Thanks.

Army.ca Staff


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## jzaidi1 (19 Jun 2008)

I think we are all a little "passionate" about our position here.  Huxley - feel free to join any organization you want.  The CF system is designed to filter those who do not want to be there so you'll know quickly enough if it is right for you.  Just realize that the pursuit of money is a fool's game (and I continue to play the game) and it's a soul destroying experience.  My best years were when I served in the CF and back then I made very little money but was happy.  I'm trying to get back in BTW.

Please don't take the comments personally.  We don't know you and you don't know us, as you have mentioned, BUT serving/former member of the CF have earned the right (paid in blood, sweat and many tears) to challenge anyone who's motives are not in line with the vast majority of the CF.

J


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## WaitingTime (19 Jun 2008)

Huxley, you keep saying that money is not everything, yet you keep on complaining about how little you would be making with all the education you are going to get.  Your posts seem like the career you choose is based solely on money and money only.  It seems like you are in denial.  You can not even admit the fact that money is everything to you.  I am not yet in the military, but I am going through an application process through DEO program.  I could easily make more than what I would be getting paid.  During an interview, I never once asked how much I would be making because I really do not care as long as I make enough to live a half decent life.  I suggest if you want to make good money, you should get a degree in petroleum engineering and go out to an oilfield.  You would make a killing there.  You can easily make 6 figure without a few years if you are any good.  As for the extra time you need to make big decision, I have nothing against that, however, I do not think being an officer (depend on what trade you going into) is best suited for you.  For instance, if you become an infantry officer, lives of many CF members will be depended on you.  You will have to make a quick and reasonable decision without seconds.  It is not basketball.  You can not call a timeout...  Military may not be the best career choice for you.  However, that being said, it is entirely up to you and is your decision whether you would apply for the military or not.


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## Jarnhamar (19 Jun 2008)

Huxley88 said:
			
		

> First of all, If I wish to join the military I will. I am aware it's not all about the money but I have sort of struggled in my education in life since I dropped out of private school and I was the delinquent undisciplined type in High School. Now I am 19 and done High school and will probably be going to night school to raise my marks taking some more U courses. I will join the reserves if I please, you have no authority to tell me otherwise. I have no criminal record and am a law abiding system. This is only the internet and you don't know me.



Except that if you act like a douche bag on here the people you're speaking too may just very well be instructing on your course.

Drop the attitude tiger.
You had a  question.
You asked your question. 
Your delievery was poopy.  
It happens.

Will you get paid more as a civie?  Probably.
Why join the military instead then? Ask 100 people and you will get 100 different answers. If you want then find out for yourself. If not then don't.


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## GAP (19 Jun 2008)

Is this thread not run out of steam? Question was asked, re asked, revised, whined about, answered repeatedly.....


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## Huxley88 (19 Jun 2008)

Sorry if I caused a bit of a disturbance. I will probably join reserves first while I complete some education....Im just not good with the "big decisions" in life thats why Im indecisive right now.


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## Loachman (19 Jun 2008)

This appears to have run its course, so unless anybody has anything useful to add, drop it now please.

There are varying types of indecision and, Huxley, I can appreciate your doubts as to whether or not this is something that you want to do.

By all means, try some time as a reservist and get a taste. There is no commitment there.

The regular force may or may not be for you, and the same is true of the reserve force. There is nothing wrong with you if they aren't.

Any other questions?


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## flashman (4 Jul 2008)

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet, so I'll add it.

"Where Have All The Tigers Gone?"
http://www.dnd.ca/admmat/logbranch/Bulletin/Vol1Iss2_8_e.htm

That is all.


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