# Chile's General Pinochet 'dead' (BBC News)



## Yrys (10 Dec 2006)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6167237.stm

Chile's former military leader Augusto Pinochet has died, Chilean
 TV reports.

The 91-year-old had been receiving treatment at a Santiago military
 hospital after an earlier heart attack.

Gen Pinochet was in power from 1973-90 after overthrowing the
 government. During that time more than 3,000 people were killed 
or "disappeared".

He is accused of dozens of human rights violations but has never
 faced trial because of poor health. 

ADD : In 1973, he was made commander-in-chief by President Salvador Allende, 
a Marxist elected three years earlier on a programme of radical social change.
 He was one of few high-ranking officers President Allende thought he could trust.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/06/americas_general_augusto_pinochet/html/1.stm


----------



## CrazyCanuck (10 Dec 2006)

I've heard he faked sickness a lot to get out of human rights trials ... guess they were telling the truth this time


----------



## TCBF (10 Dec 2006)

The man will be remembered as a true hero who saved a western country from communism.  All esle is Stalinist revisionist history engineered by the Allende-ist 'losers' and their fellow travellers in the media.

 Tom


----------



## Zell_Dietrich (10 Dec 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> The man will be remembered as a true hero who saved a western country from communism.  All esle is Stalinist revisionist history engineered by the Allende-ist 'losers' and their fellow travellers in the media.
> 
> Tom



If what happened in Chile is what we need to do to "protect" ourselves from the Communist threat then why bother?  Rounding people up, large scale torture centers and people in and out of uniform roaming around making people go "missing".  Yupp sounds like a free and democratic society that values justice and equality. Thank goodness there are people like him around to protect us from the Communists because.... well because .... because the communists would do very similar things!

Yes I understand the domino theory,  yes I know there was Soviet interference in that country, but it was still wrong.  If freedom is the best defence against tyranny and oppression,  we should arm people with it insted of having petty brutal dictators crush them under foot because we believe their society isn't "developed enough" to understand their choices.

I believe that he will now face the true depth of his mistakes, in no uncertain terms, as will eventually all those who knew what he was and did nothing. (Be that out of cowardice or greed)

http://www.komotv.com/news/national/4876916.html
"But when it came to his regime's abuses, Pinochet refused for years to take responsibility, saying any murders of political prisoners were the work of subordinates. Then on his 91st birthday - just last month - he took "full political responsibility for everything that happened" during his long rule. The statement read by his wife, however, made no reference to the rights abuses."


----------



## CrazyCanuck (10 Dec 2006)

"But when it came to his regime's abuses, Pinochet refused for years to take responsibility, saying any murders of political prisoners were the work of subordinates. Then on his 91st birthday - just last month - he took "full political responsibility for everything that happened" during his long rule. The statement read by his wife, however, made no reference to the rights abuses."[/quote]

A coward and a Tyrant


----------



## ROTP Applicant (10 Dec 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> The man will be remembered as a true hero who saved a western country from communism.  All esle is Stalinist revisionist history engineered by the Allende-ist 'losers' and their fellow travellers in the media.
> 
> Tom



I truly hope that you're being sarcastic.


----------



## Yrys (11 Dec 2006)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6167747.stm



> Clashes follow death of Pinochet
> 
> Thousands of Chileans have taken to the streets following the death
> of the country's former military ruler, Augusto Pinochet, at the age of 91.
> ...


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Dec 2006)

>If freedom is the best defence against tyranny and oppression,  we should arm people with it insted of having petty brutal dictators crush them under foot because we believe their society isn't "developed enough" to understand their choices.

Pacificism is defenceless against tyranny.  Europe wasn't given a temporary respite from fascism by having the US and Canada embark on a multi-decade demonstration of freedom and prosperity.  Our forefathers had to go in there and kill the bastards.


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Dec 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> The man will be remembered as a true hero who saved a western country from communism.  All esle is Stalinist revisionist history engineered by the Allende-ist 'losers' and their fellow travellers in the media.
> 
> Tom



TCB, you know I'm pretty right wing, too, but I'm thinking we don't have to go quite so far as slitting open the stomachs of our opposition before dumping them into the ocean to protect ourselves from communism, no?  

And no, I haven't talked to witnesses of this practice, and no, I don't believe everything the media says/writes, but I know people who've survived some pretty gruesome stuff (with the scars to prove it) because the gov't of the day thought they were bad guys.  Were they bad guys?  Maybe, maybe not.  Should they have been tortured?  I think not...


----------



## Zell_Dietrich (12 Dec 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Pacificism is defenceless against tyranny.  Europe wasn't given a temporary respite from fascism by having the US and Canada embark on a multi-decade demonstration of freedom and prosperity.  Our forefathers had to go in there and kill the bastards.



Goodwin's law in almost record time. Annoying. I do find it amusing that you cast a brutal dictator in the role of the democracies and those who he fought against as the tyrants. 

I personally agree that pacificism  is ineffective against most tyrannical regimes. (you're just easier to kill) But it isn't useless,  it has worked. *cough* Gandhi *cough*. Lets face it who ever remembers anyone in history who ever stood up for what he believed in and was then killed for it?  I can't think on ONE single person who ever advocated peace on earth and good will towards all men only to be killed and be noted in history.  Nope,  history is extremely clear on this,  there is no way it ever changes things for the better. 

Make no mistake,  he wasn't simply an Anticommunist,  he crushed all groups that opposed him, including those who wanted democracy and free market. He was a dictator, he was brutal, he was a bad man. In his death I feel only remorse that he did not repent fully, apologising,  and face judgment here before he faces his other judgement. I still hope he is shown more mercy than he showed others.

One must ensure that ones use of violence is just because just as pacifism doesn't work in some situations brutal violence doesn't work in others. Only really good reasons can one justify violence, because the costs are so high. "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" -Mahatma Gandhi


----------



## Kirkhill (12 Dec 2006)

> *cough* Gandhi *cough*



Right after Goodwin this is the second most abused debating tool.  Beyond Gandhi there are no other known examples.  Jesus Christ himself ended up getting his reward in the next world.

As has been pointed out by others the only reason that Gandhi-ji survived as long as he did was because he lived in a country where the rule of law prevailed courtesy of the Brits.  If he had tried that with the Japanese, Germans, Russians or, dare I say, some Hindus he would have ended up murdered - as he was, by a Hindu.

While I too believe TCBF has headed for "touch" pretty quickly on this one I don't find much to distinguish Allende and Pinochet.  I have seen too many "one man, one vote, one time" elections to be overly sentimental about dictators elected or otherwise.  Personally the best that I can say is that Allende and Pinochet cancelled each other out and gave Chile a chance to get its act together.  Hopefully they won't get too hung up on history and will realize this.

By the way Gandhi's recommendation to the Brits during WW2 was to allow the Japanese and Germans to invade Britain, impose their laws, take over their homes and ultimately let themselves be slaughtered if necessary - secure in the knowledge that they had died with "right" on their side.  Heck of a strategy, but not a bad one if the purpose of the exercise was to rid India of Brits so that the Hindus and Muslims could go back to the discussion that the Brits had so rudely interrupted over 300 years previous.

Never mind me though.

Carry on with your next argument.

Cheers.


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Dec 2006)

>Goodwin's law in almost record time. Annoying. I do find it amusing that you cast a brutal dictator in the role of the democracies and those who he fought against as the tyrants. 

Blow it out your ass.  When in future you don't grasp the underlying point, feel free to not respond if you have no actual point to make yourself.  Here is the point: confronted by only courses of action of which you would rather take none, but compelled to take at least one, you should select the one which will resolve the situation and allow you to resume your prior moral trajectory.  It doesn't mean you've become slime for all time immemorial and excused yourself from elevating your standards.  Maybe Allende was going to be the first humane marxist-communist-socialist saviour of mankind.  But look at the averages with respect to wrongful deaths, torture, imprisonment, etc: Russia? Nope.  China?  Nope.  N Korea?  Nope.  N Vietnam?  Nope.  Cambodia?  Nope.  Cuba?  Nope.  Hungary?  Nope...

>But becoming your enemy in order to fight him is just as bad. You loose the moral highground.

There is a difference between temporarily becoming your enemy and permanently becoming your enemy.  For various reasons, the US dropped nuclear bombs on two Japanese cities to resolve the war with Japan.  Did the US then, having become the destroyer of cities, maintain a policy of threatening wholesale destruction on innocent cities at each turn of foreign events in the following decades in order to extort its aims?  No, it did not.  Clear?


----------



## Zell_Dietrich (12 Dec 2006)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Right after Goodwin this is the second most abused debating tool.  Beyond Gandhi there are no other known examples.  Jesus Christ himself ended up getting his reward in the next world.



I know I know,  but if you're going to use bad form,  do it with style.  Nazis, Ghandi, and the big JC - all of whom can always be used to muddle any thread swiftly. I knew my last post was about as intelligent and well thought out as some of the other posts on this thread,  but I think everything that is to be said has already.  

I think he was bad.  Not super villain bad,  but really bad.  (Could have been much worse and much much much better. )Some people think he was good.  It is an argument that could go on for 40 pages, with examples, quotes and personal stories and I don't think anyone from either side would feel any differently about the topic.  I say that he was a brutal man who took power and caused allot of suffering and that if he was a better person he could have drastically reduced the pain he inflicted.  

As for my digestive system,  classy.   As for your point that a temporary curtailing of liberties to maintain the security of a country being sometimes necessary,  yes I have to agree with you on that.  We have the war measures act and we've used it.  We did what we had to do to return to the way we were.  Pinochet didn't fight off a temporary threat,  he installed himself as ruler.  Draping him with the flag of "Anticommunist freedom fighter" does nothing but tarnish that flag.


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Dec 2006)

Chile didn't have to muddle through a period of 1970s-style Soviet-influenced "people's government" either, and by the time he left office there was enough accumulated evidence on the board that successive governments haven't bothered trying to backtrack down that road, so Chile isn't one of the basket case economies of Latin America.  Regardless, "anticommunist freedom fighting" was never an untarnished flag - it was always a dirty rag.  Everywhere people stood up to Russian expansionism, people were persecuted, murdered, or engulfed in war.


----------



## geo (12 Dec 2006)

One man's hero is another's devil

The general overthrew a democraticaly elected government.

Devil!


----------



## Kirkhill (12 Dec 2006)

Chacun a son poisson.


----------



## Brad Sallows (12 Dec 2006)

To each his own fish?


----------



## Kirkhill (13 Dec 2006)

Chacun a son gout. One man's meat is another man's poison or poisson.  = The Grand Old Bilinguin Expression "Chacun a son poisson" ( OK I made it up ). :-[


----------



## geo (13 Dec 2006)

well....
there is always the old addage: "beware what you wish for"

or the chinese curse: " may you live in interesting times"


----------



## a_majoor (13 Dec 2006)

I simply hope the MSM will vilify Castro or Mugabe to the same extent they did Pinochet when they die. After all, the operative ideology seems to be the "ends don't justify the means", and while I certainly am not a fan of the dirty war against the communists, I am always amazed at how there are no calls for justice against those who created the Killing Fields of Cuba, Zimbabwe, Russia, China, Cambodia, Viet Nam, Laos, Eastern Europe, etc. etc.

Or is fighting a dirty war against freedom, democracy and human rights a good thing?


----------



## geo (13 Dec 2006)

well.... not everyone has the same common defenition of :
Human Rights, 
Democracy, or
Freedom.


----------



## Kirkhill (13 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> well.... not everyone has the same common defenition of :
> Human Rights,
> Democracy, or
> Freedom.



Or of Major Baker's favourite word "IS".

Language: Guaranteed employment for lawyers, lexicographers, librarians and journalists.

"Let the deed shaw"


----------



## time expired (13 Dec 2006)

I do not have much info. on how evil a dictator  Pinochet was, however 3000 murdered,
BBC figures,makes him small potatoes as dictators go, trying not to be too cynical here,
but as Allende was a darling of the Left and of course the media, makes me very wary about
what I have read or watched on TV about this story.I just go back and look at the heroes
of the left during my lifetime,Josef Stalin,Mao,Castro,I seem to remember Mabutu being
touted by the left as a viable replacement to that evil man Ian Smith and was feted in the
UK on one of his earlier visits. So it seems to me how one judges Pinochet depends more
on your political stance than any facts that have been presented. 
                                       Regards


----------



## Brad Sallows (13 Dec 2006)

>there is always the old addage: "beware what you wish for"

Or as Kirkhill might say, "Beware what you fish for".

Pinochet's legacy should be measured on two distinct grounds: the coup, and his governance after the coup.  He may very well have saved Chile from a worse fate and then failed himself to do a particularly good job in the wake of his finest moment.


----------



## Kirkhill (13 Dec 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >there is always the old addage: "beware what you wish for"
> 
> Or as Kirkhill might say, "Beware what you fish for"....



There really needs to be a "cringeworthy" emoticon.


----------



## TCBF (13 Dec 2006)

"I really hope you weren't serious. Because if you were, thats in the top ten list for worst things ever said on this site"

- Oh YEAH?  Okee-dokee Mr. Expert, what are the other nine?  

Hmmmnnn?

- Lets let LEFT balance right, and make a bunch of 'Pinochet 'T Shirts to balance all of the Ernesto 'Che' (Psycopathic Murderer who starved the wives and children of defecting Cuban pilots in bamboo cages on the Islas del Pinos) Guavera T-shirts all of our Commie indoctrinated university 'youth' like to wear.  

Tom


----------



## xFusilier (13 Dec 2006)

> Lets let LEFT balance right, and make a bunch of 'Pinochet 'T Shirts to balance all of the Ernesto 'Che' (Psycopathic Murderer who starved the wives and children of defecting Cuban pilots in bamboo cages on the Islas del Pinos) Guavera T-shirts all of our Commie indoctrinated university 'youth' like to wear.



It'll never happen if for no other reason that on this very site: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21566.0.html that berets have more of a certain je ne sais quoi than forage caps, among other reasons.


----------



## a_majoor (14 Dec 2006)

But of course when Castro dies, how many obituary writers will remember the last line of this piece?

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2006/12/the_right_wing_.html



> *The Right Wing Castro and why I don't defend him*
> Read Peter Hitchens only in The Mail on Sunday
> 
> I don't defend Augusto Pinochet, the late dictator of Chile. He was a wicked man who tortured and murdered his opponents and - in a law-governed, constitutional democracy - chose illegal and undemocratic methods. Whatever good he may have done, which is in any case open to serious question, does not excuse these unforgiveable actions. So why won't the Left say the same simple thing about Pinochet's socialist twin, the Cuban torturer and mass murderer Fidel Castro?
> ...


----------



## ROTP Applicant (14 Dec 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> The man will be remembered as a true hero who saved a western country from communism.  All esle is Stalinist revisionist history engineered by the Allende-ist 'losers' and their fellow travellers in the media.
> 
> Tom





			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> "I really hope you weren't serious. Because if you were, thats in the top ten list for worst things ever said on this site"
> 
> - Oh YEAH?  Okee-dokee Mr. Expert, what are the other nine?
> 
> ...



Where did Che come into all of this? Yes, the far left extremists may have commited worse crimes than those of Pinochet. However, that still does not justify his actions. Read up on the Villa Grimaldi, the National Stadium and Chacabuco concentration camps and then reconsider your ridiculous claim that he will be remembered as a "true hero."


----------



## geo (14 Dec 2006)

saw a pic in today's paper.  Chile has a new Capt Augusto Pinochet in it's armed forces.... wonder if he has aspirations of grandeur?


----------



## Yrys (14 Dec 2006)

Chile HAD a captain Pinochet, grandson of the other. He was expelled
because he gave an unauthorised speech during his grandfather funeral.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6175455.stm



> The commander of the Chilean army, Gen Oscar Izurieta, said Captain Pinochet
> had committed a grave error, leaving no choice but to discharge him.
> 
> This is a grave error and we are certain that the army will know what to do
> ...


----------



## Dare (14 Dec 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> well.... not everyone has the same common defenition of :
> Human Rights,
> Democracy, or
> Freedom.


That's true, not everyone has a dictionary.


----------



## geo (14 Dec 2006)

Dare that is true and false at the same time

Some have Wiki based dictionaries that allows them to customize the dictionary.

Also,  talk to the US about democracy VS talking to a Canadian about democracy.... they will be similar BUT they won't be the same.

Human Rights.... ditto
Freedom......Ditto


----------



## TCBF (14 Dec 2006)

"then reconsider your ridiculous claim that he will be remembered as a "true hero." "

"The honest thing, whatever your politics, is to condemn them both. I do. What about you?"

- Both.  I do condemn them both, and both will be remembered as "true heroes" by their respective followers.  The claim is not ridiculous. In any case, Chile recovered from Pinochet far faster than it would have recovered from Allende.


----------



## Brad Sallows (14 Dec 2006)

>Also,  talk to the US about democracy VS talking to a Canadian about democracy.... they will be similar BUT they won't be the same.

No kidding.  Down there, they elect their senators.  I'm waiting for the Canadian "progressive democracy" community to wind itself up in fits over how to oppose the government's new senate legislation.


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Dec 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Lets let LEFT balance right, and make a bunch of 'Pinochet 'T Shirts to balance all of the Ernesto 'Che' (Psycopathic Murderer who starved the wives and children of defecting Cuban pilots in bamboo cages on the Islas del Pinos) Guavera T-shirts all of our Commie indoctrinated university 'youth' like to wear.



Sort of like "Kill the whales, and seals too" t-shirts?     How's this......


----------



## TCBF (15 Dec 2006)

Darn it Tony, we need a snappy graphic silksceen like the famous 'Che in a beret' one the comrades flout so much.  Think 'Propaganda 101.'  

Tom


----------



## The Bread Guy (15 Dec 2006)

How's about these, Tom?  Let me know, and I'll send you the t-shirt of your choice....  ;D


----------



## TCBF (16 Dec 2006)

Do they come in tan?

 ;D

Tom


----------



## The Bread Guy (16 Dec 2006)

More like this?  If you'll wear it, PM me with a snail mail address, and I'll send you a white one (can't do the tan so well from the ink jet)....


----------



## Yrys (16 Dec 2006)

If you make and ware a t-shirt like it, 
put up a picture


----------



## Yrys (19 Dec 2006)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6195333.stm



> Chile MPs urge Pinochet monument
> A group of right-wing politicians has proposed erecting three monuments
> to Chile's former military leader, General Augusto Pinochet, who died this month.
> 
> ...


----------



## geo (20 Dec 2006)

.... statues go up and statues go down - visit Russia & try to find statues to Stalin, Marx, Lenin....... many have been melted down or moved to a park of cast offs.

There are many who are still pressing to bring Pinochet to trial.  Try him "in absentia" to air out all of his dirty laundry.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (20 Dec 2006)

Or blown up

See 
The First Brock Column at Queenston
The Nelson Column in Dublin


----------



## geo (21 Dec 2006)

That sounds like a pretty cool sentence


----------



## TCBF (23 Dec 2006)

'You don't label as a traitor, torture and kill people for purely for their beliefs'

- No, you label, torture and kill people for their traitorous ACTIVITIES.

 ;D

- He was the lesser of two evils.  Chile is far better off today - and suffered far less casualties - than if Allende had had another ten years in power.

Tom


----------



## geo (27 Dec 2006)

Tom,
Your stand holds water with a lot of people..... but not all of people.

Those who supported Allende, those who had elected Allende, might beg to differ.


----------



## TCBF (27 Dec 2006)

True.  I have had conversations with such people in the past.  The most notable being a long frustrating three hour discussion in a German Gasthaus with a Neo-Nazi who called himself a 'Republican'.  Whether on the right or on the left, they all have one thing in common:  the belief that their beliefs trump our rights.


----------

