# Staff Cadets geting their 404's



## q_1966 (15 Apr 2005)

http://www.regions.cadets.forces.gc.ca/pac/support/admin/prci/450.pdf

Just read how Staff Cadets can get their 404's (Military Drivers License Permit)
but what position as Staff would qualify you for that, Im thinking Storesman, but ive havent seen anything like this happen, New Trend?...Hopefully for the better.


----------



## ouyin2000 (15 Apr 2005)

as far as i know, you have to be 19 to get your DND 404, but i might be mistaken on that one

as for which positions may drive, at HMCS Quadra, they have an actual Staff Cadet Driver position, the requirements (i believe) are Full provincial drivers liscence with no suspensions, penalties, tickets, or anything on it

so i doubt youll be able to qualify for it in your first year at summer camp (especially the way the BC Graduated Drivers program is going now)


----------



## Inch (15 Apr 2005)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> as far as i know, you have to be 19 to get your DND 404, but i might be mistaken on that one



Not true, I had mine @ 18 when I was in the militia. You don't even need a provincial driver's licence, I knew a guy that could drive Cougars and Bisons but not a car on civvie street.


----------



## ouyin2000 (15 Apr 2005)

ok well according to the Pac Region regulations, you hafta have your full provincial drivers liscence before even applying

and yes i know that you dont need a provincial liscence to be able to drive a tank or AFV....i got lots of info from the recruiting center


----------



## aesop081 (15 Apr 2005)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> ok well according to the Pac Region regulations, you hafta have your full provincial drivers liscence before even applying
> 
> and yes i know that you dont need a provincial liscence to be able to drive a tank or AFV....i got lots of info from the recruiting center



I think that there is somethng about DND 404s that you don't understand.  You do not "apply" for them, you get them issued when you have qualified on military veh and completing a road test on that vehicle ( like geting your driver wheeled course or track course......etc....).  You don't need a provoncial driver's ;iscence to drive a tank and you don't need one to drive an MLVW, LSVW, iltis or even MILCOTS........you can drive a staff car without a provincial if you have been qualified by a military driver-examiner.

Even if cadets are allowed to hold DND 404s, i'm sure that it does not absolve you of the requirement to pass a road test on tha vehicle you are expected to drive.  Only exception may be staff car and small passenger vans.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (15 Apr 2005)

To drive *any* SMP vehicle, you have to do the driver course for that vehicle, which will normally include the road test. For your 404's you also require the DIT, Defensive Driving course and in most cases Safe Backing. Some Commands may make it a prerequisite for Cadets to have their civvie licence, but it is normally not required for your 404's, in the Res or Regs.


----------



## ouyin2000 (15 Apr 2005)

ok guys, actually read the link that was posted in the first post...it explains the requirements for a staff cadet to hold their DND 404


----------



## WO2 Gubbels (15 Apr 2005)

I was wondering about the 404 as well.  I read over the link, fairly straight forward.  Just wanted to know, what counts as a devensive driving course??? is this a civvie course like drivers education, or is it military based?


----------



## The_Falcon (15 Apr 2005)

WO2 Gubbels said:
			
		

> I was wondering about the 404 as well.   I read over the link, fairly straight forward.   Just wanted to know, what counts as a devensive driving course??? is this a civvie course like drivers education, or is it military based?



The Defensive Driving Course or DDC is a program from the Canada Safety Counsel (A Civillian agency).  Whether your intstuctor is civ or military they must be certified by the CSC.


----------



## Strike (15 Apr 2005)

Even though the pub is for the Pac region, unless it states (in definition or throughout the pub) BC provincial driver's licence, you could probably get away with a licence from any other province, provided it is valid.


----------



## Dane (15 Apr 2005)

This is VERY new (Feb) and actually, I assume, supercedes a policy released 2-3 years ago barring any driving by any staff cadet at any time (whether personal vehicle, or DND)


----------



## Jonny Boy (16 Apr 2005)

that would be so cool for cadets to get there military lisence. right now i think it is a priority that i get my G1 seeing i dont have it.


----------



## Zedic_1913 (16 Apr 2005)

This would make the cadet a valuable asset to their LHQ training exercises ..... that is, if the 404 wasn't required to be turned in at the end of the summer employment session.


----------



## q_1966 (16 Apr 2005)

my question is, does it have to be a full license (Class 5) or would your L / N  Count?


----------



## ouyin2000 (16 Apr 2005)

i believe if would mean your full provincial liscence

besides, the only camp in Pac Reg that has a Staff Cadet Driver position, is HMCS Quadra...so don't bother asking around at Vernon, because it wont happen


----------



## old medic (18 Apr 2005)

Cadets must have a full provincial drivers license. they would fall under the Category 1 404

Cadets would not have a driver wheel course qualification or training on military
pattern vehicles, and would not qualify for Category 2. 

Note - 404's are a local issue by authority of the base or unit transportation officer. 
They would stop being valid the day you left camp.  

Here are the rules for Reg and Res Force:

7500-1 (DLBM/TM)
May 2000

Distribution List

THE NEW LICENSING STANDARD (DND 404 POLICY CHANGE)

References: A. 7500-1 (DGT) 29 June 1994 - CF MSE Safety Program and DND Licensing System

B. 7500-1 (DGT) 29 Oct. 1993 - Policy Change - DND 404 Requirements for User Drivers

C. 1456-15 (D Law/A2) 19 July 1988 - Status of DND 404

D. A-LM-158-005/AG-001 - Transportation Manual - General

E. Treasury Board Secretariat Motor Vehicle Policy (TBSMVP) 

<snip>

DND 404

5. Precise regulations for the issuance of DND 404s will be published in an updated version of Reference B shortly. The major policy change is the creation of three types of DND 404s as follows:

   1. Type I. This is intended for the occasional driver who is authorized to drive all Standard Commercial MSE up to and including nine passenger vans. A type I license is *issued based on the possession of a valid PDL* and consists simply of registering the driver in the FMS. The local transportation authority may oblige type I license holders to complete a local information guide/test or briefing. DDC is mandatory by 1 Dec 2001 or the type I license is revoked until DDC is completed. As FMS is not yet connected through a national database, personnel wishing to obtain MSE away from their home unit should have a print out of their FMS registration in their possession. Otherwise, physical possession of a paper DND 404 is not essential; registration in FMS may be sufficient as determined by local policy.

   2. Type II. This is for military and civilian professional and user drivers who are required to drive MSE, Standard Military Pattern (SMP) vehicles or Armoured Fighting Vehicles (AFV) as part of their routine duties. It is issued to personnel who require certification on vehicles outside of Type I levels. The carrying of Type II permit is mandatory.

   3. Type III. This is for the military or *civilian personnel who do not have a PDL or formal driver training* (so can not be categorized as casual, user or professional drivers) but who are required to operate MSE in order to perform a specific function *limited to DND property* (i.e., forklift operation in a Depot). The carrying of a Type III DND 404 is mandatory. 

CONCLUSION

5. This policy will be included in DAOD 3020-2. It is important to remember that the proper licensing of qualified drivers is a safety issue. As such, it is the responsibility of leaders at all levels, not solely

Directeur - Gestion des activites (Logistiques)
Gestion des Transports

Lieutenant-Colonel

K.S. Harrison
Lieutenant-Colonel
Director Logistics Business Management -
Transportation Management


----------



## medic65726 (17 May 2005)

I got a 404 as an 18 year old staff cadet at Blackdown/Borden.
I had a full provincial liscence, had proof of taking a defensice driving course (Young Drivers) and had to pass a written test.
There was no road test portion, or safe backing for that matter.
I was issued a 404 valid for Civvie pattern vehicles comporable to what I could drive with my Ontario G class.
It had all the classes and restrictions listed on it. IIRC:
Passenger vehicles up to 8 passengers
Cargo up to one ton
as well as the green painted Civvie pattern Jeeps they had recently bought.
It was issued by the base transportation section and was valid only for the summer.


----------



## primer (20 May 2005)

Yes I do remember that Staff cadets that were Driver storeman at Blackdown had there 404s. 1995 was the only year that Staff cadets had 404s at the Camp.


----------



## 3rcr_duhamel (16 Jun 2005)

now, in order to get your 404, you do have to have your G2, minimum.  Though that could just be rumor, many of my family in the military have said that.  It may not be in place yet.

 Fallschirmjäger


----------



## Jonny Boy (16 Jun 2005)

3RCR_duhamel said:
			
		

> now, in order to get your 404, you do have to have your G2, minimum.  Though that could just be rumor, many of my family in the military have said that.  It may not be in place yet.
> 
> Fallschirmjäger



no it is not a rumor. it is very much true. i went in yesterday to apply to be a VE-TECH and they told me i could not until i had my G-2. they used to do a course were you joined did your g-2 course than your 404. but because of cut backs you are required to have your G-2 before.


----------



## Thompson_JM (18 Jun 2005)

Personally I think having cadets with 404's is a scary thought... I can see too many of them getting too wraped up in how cool it is to drive army cars and letting their minds wander when they should be focusing on driving...

the better question would be, would the 404's be restricted to DND Property or would they be allowed to operate MSE off base? 

personally i just think its not a good idea. especially since at the end of the the day Cadets (staff or otherwise) are still not held to the same level of accountability as Military personal (Reg or PRes)

but thats just my .02  

regards
   Josh


----------



## 1feral1 (18 Jun 2005)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> as far as i know, you have to be 19 to get your DND 404, but i might be mistaken on that one
> 
> as for which positions may drive, at HMCS Quadra, they have an actual Staff Cadet Driver position, the requirements (i believe) are Full provincial drivers liscence with no suspensions, penalties, tickets, or anything on it
> 
> so i doubt youll be able to qualify for it in your first year at summer camp (especially the way the BC Graduated Drivers program is going now)



That 19 yrs old for 404s is an urban myth.

I was 17 when I got mine, as although I have been out of the CF loop for over 10 yrs now, as long as the appropiate written CF tests are passed, along with the provincial, and a DDC, plus a road test (or maybe a Drivers Course too), I find nothing wrong with temp 404s issued to Cadets who are authorised, but I do believe a standard Operators licence from the home province may be required to go along with this. Can any Safety Sups add to this? I did the course (MSE Safety Coord) at CFSAL in Bordon in 94, but again things may have changed.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Saorse (18 Jun 2005)

I'm quite confused on what need there is for a cadet to have their 404.  ???


----------



## 1feral1 (18 Jun 2005)

WO Saorse said:
			
		

> I'm quite confused on what need there is for a cadet to have their 404.   ???



... and a WO can't come to any logic on why?

A little bit of commonsense can come up with many reasons, most borne out of simple logistics. How is a, say a busy summer camp to cope with a lack of PRes or Regulars to augment driver taskings as such.

I am sure there is bonafide reasons to give designated Cadets manning certain staff positions their temp 404s for summer camps, and about your question, why not? Who are you going to get to fill a driver tasking if so required.

Think about it.


----------



## ouyin2000 (18 Jun 2005)

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> Personally I think having cadets with 404's is a scary thought... I can see too many of them getting too wraped up in how cool it is to drive army cars and letting their minds wander when they should be focusing on driving...
> 
> the better question would be, would the 404's be restricted to DND Property or would they be allowed to operate MSE off base?
> 
> ...


according to the CATO regarding this, the vehicle would be limited to DND property, and in certain circumstances they would be allowed to leave. For example, if they were required to pick up arriving cadets from the bus depot or airport.


----------



## CH1 (19 Jun 2005)

And probably to prevent them from running over Buicks. From my limited expeirence, the 404's are restricted heavily due to past indiscretions.  The aforementioned was Res pers in Rivers (very dated) involving a 50 Ptn 2 1/2T & Buick less than 3 blocks out of dealer.  Cadets in Vernon were usually restricted to DND property.

Cheers


----------



## ouyin2000 (19 Jun 2005)

Vernon Army CSTC no longer issues staff cadets with their 404s. The only camp in Pac Reg that I know of for sure, is HMCS Quadra.


----------



## Sgt_McWatt (20 Jun 2005)

Thats to bad, this thread got me kind of excitedfor a bit.


----------



## Jonny Boy (20 Jun 2005)

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> according to the CATO regarding this, the vehicle would be limited to DND property, and in certain circumstances they would be allowed to leave. For example, if they were required to pick up arriving cadets from the bus depot or airport.



i didn't think cadets were allowed to drive other cadets anywere at all. just like teachers cant drive students.


----------



## Burrows (20 Jun 2005)

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> i didn't think cadets were allowed to drive other cadets anywere at all. just like teachers cant drive students.



Teachers can drive students. At least, in my board they can for school purposes.


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jun 2005)

WO. McWatt said:
			
		

> Thats to bad, this thread got me kind of excitedfor a bit.



Why ?


----------



## Sgt_McWatt (20 Jun 2005)

I thank everyone for automatically assuming I am immature and naive and have no idea what happens at a cadet training center. if you wish to apologise please feel free. I was excited just because it would be something most people wont ever have and something I can say I had, because you don't get much else as far as qualifications go as staff.
Regards,


----------



## aesop081 (20 Jun 2005)

WO. McWatt said:
			
		

> I thank everyone for automatically assuming I am immature and naive and have no idea what happens at a cadet training center. if you wish to apologise please feel free. I was excited just because it would be something most people wont ever have and something I can say I had, because you don't get much else as far as qualifications go as staff.
> Regards,



I certaily don't need to apologise.   I was simply curious as to why you were getting excited.   I certainly did not need   BS attitude from you.   If you realy want 404s that bad....heck i can give you mine !   As far as most people not having 404s......i hate to burst your bubble but they are quite common.   Come to think of it, your reaction simply proves that you simply want them for "cool factor" and not a valid requirement........now thats immature.

At any rate, i was just currious but if you want a flame war kid....i have time


----------



## Sgt_McWatt (20 Jun 2005)

actully I on the other hand I dont have time to have a "flame war" and my comment was more directed to piper when he was goking aoubt how I wouldent drive a tank etc... However yes I do want it for the cool factor, and if that is immature so be it. I am miture enough to admit that I really do want it for that.

Regards,


----------



## medic65726 (20 Jun 2005)

Well, do dispel the cool factor..............
The Summer in Blackdown I worked as the Photographer (crappy job it it got me into the semi-pro work I do now), the main vehicle I got to drive was an ancient, run-down staff car, a Dodge Shadow, grey, with the CF logo on the doors. Not a cool ride by any stretch. As for driving cadets around, I was on occasion accompanied by the Cadet RSM as we went to see the cadets swimming off obase at the conservation area.
The ony better thing I drove was that I got a full-size pick-up (green) for a weekend (transport section was closed by the time I was done with it, so I had it all weekend) to deliver stuff.
Not cool by any stretch, just practical to do my job.


----------



## CH1 (21 Jun 2005)

Uuuuhhhh, pardon me but do you not need a valid work ticket for auth use of DND veh?  Don't know if it is still called work ticket, so please enlighten me.  But the work ticket detailed the duty, pol, miles (km), time, duty dates, auth signature, & other little thing.

Cheers


----------



## Thompson_JM (21 Jun 2005)

Okay, Need to Clarify a couple of things here..

Firstly if a cadet were issued 404's they would probabbly not be given anything big or expensive... meaning odds are you wouldnt be driving rentals, since the companies freak out over young people driving them... even though when dnd leases or rents it becomes the property of dnd for that period, and if there are damages, dnd absorbs the cost completly... 

odd are as a cadet you would be driving what medic65726 had. some sort of staff car or dnd owned (read: it will have a CFR) veh... IT WILL NOT BE A CUBE VAN cube van is rated as a 2 ton truck and as such is in a higher catagory then basic commercial Cargo..

the cadet would have either basic passenger up to 8pax van, or basic cargo, up to full size pickup truck, or both. nothing higher then that, as any vehicle larger then that requires advanced training. and as such proof of a provncial license would not be enough.  even still, I cant see the CF wanting to give even an 18yr old staff cadet a $60,000 chevy silverado or a $50,000 ford ecconoline van.. keep in mind that the army tends to have a failry new commercial fleet.. not too many old beat up cars. there are a few, but not alot that ive seen. and in the cadet world or at least at Connaught, all the vehicles I used, and saw in use by the Cadet Camp were rentals. I cant see the camp Tn O or the local MSE Safety guys being cool with letting cadets drive those vehicles... theyre just too expensive to risk it.

CH1: (TO MY KNOWLEGE) Yes, all MSE (Owned, Rented or Leased) requires a valid work ticket or Trip Ticket. now that we've switched to FMS (Fleet Management System) its all kept on computer. keep in mind that there is more then one type of ticket however.
Casual: used for a short term trip or when a standing work ticket does not apply. ie: we have a standing ticket on our 8pax van to be filled out monthly, and is valid for use in The 31 CBG Area. if we need to take the veh outside 31 Brigade we need to get a MSE Trip Ticket authorized. which I had to do just recently when I took the Van to CFB Pettawawa to transport Troops to their Course. 

so basically if you have a monthly ticket you dont need to record every trip that the veh takes if the trip falls within the mandate of the ticket. ie: taking the van from CFRB Hamilton to John Foote Armouries (just up the road) to pick up stores, or as a duty driver for a training night. so in alot of cases with the rental vehs they also had monthly tickets, and we would use a log sheet on a daily basis to record who was driving and the km, time in and out. 

that all applies to the Comercial pattern fleet. The SMP or Green Fleet will usually only have casual work or trip tickets. so for the duration of an exercise or something like that.

however, this is not the word of god here, keep in mind that I am a Reservist Corporal who has not taken his QL5, PLQ, 6A's SLC or any of the courses required to be a qualified Dispatcher,  I have spent a very limited amount of time on FMS. so like i said, this is basically what I have observed and been told. im sure I have missed points and that there is imformation which may not be 100% correct.  what I have said is to the best of my knowege correct. however Im sure there are a few more 935's on here who could correct any misimformation i may have accidentaly put here.

Cheers
- Josh


----------



## aesop081 (21 Jun 2005)

Simple fact is that this whole thing boiled down to good old "LCF" and nothing more.


----------



## Burrows (21 Jun 2005)

And with that, we shall stand down.


----------

