# Iraq barbarism-The Mutilation of 4 American Civilians-Article



## Pieman (2 Apr 2004)

Pretty ugly stuff. There are a couple of pictures on the CNN websight in the image gallery.

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Americans, confronted by shocking images of Iraq barbarism, reminded of Somalia
03:51 AM EST Apr 02
BETH GORHAM

WASHINGTON (CP) - It was hard to escape the grisly evidence of hatred Thursday as Americans confronted shocking images of jubilant Iraqis celebrating the deaths and mutilations of four U.S. civilians.

While officials vowed to stand firm and punish those involved in the brutal Fallujah incident, the graphic pictures that appeared in U.S. newspapers and spilled onto Internet sites threatened to accelerate turmoil about the war among election-year voters at home.

"Powerful visuals are extremely important in moulding public opinion and these will not be forgotten," pollster John Zogby said from New York.

"Americans are already split on the war. This will harden the opposition and may chip away at some of the soft support."

The 13-month war has been mostly devoid of potent imagery, beyond pictures of Iraqi mass graves from Saddam Hussein's brutal regime and the contentious story of U.S. soldier Jessica Lynch and her rescue from an Iraqi hospital.

"This trumps both of those," said Zogby.

But Karlyn Bowman, an analyst at the American Enterprise Institute think-tank, said the dramatic evidence of barbarism won't change many views among Americans who expected winning the peace to be more difficult than victory in war.

"I don't expect any significant change in public opinion," she said in an interview.

"As much of a tragedy as Americans think this is, I think they'll stick with what they already thought."

Still, the White House appeared mindful of the potential impact during President George W. Bush's bid for re-election this fall, especially since he's made his anti-terrorism fight a key component of his campaign.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan called for "responsible" media coverage of the murders Wednesday of four security contractors.

They were beaten, burned and hung from a bridge in the city west of Baghdad.

Major newspapers ran pictures of the charred, hanging corpses. Television networks were less inclined to show footage of the bodies, focusing instead on their burning SUVs and the frenzied mob.

But for many, it was Somalia all over again; a vivid reminder of similar scenes from 1993, when the corpses of U.S. soldiers were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu. Memories of the ill-fated mission were resurrected in the 2002 Hollywood movie Black Hawk Down.

Such incomprehensible acts eventually prompted Americans to withdraw from Somalia.

Not even critics, however, were suggesting an Iraq departure, a move some say could lead to civil war and provide sanctuary for more terrorists.

"United in sadness, we are also united in our resolve that these enemies will not prevail," said Democrat John Kerry, Bush's all-but-official rival in the Nov. 2 vote.

"We cannot afford to lose this," agreed Republican Senator John McCain, a maverick who's opposed Bush's handling of the conflict. "We cannot leave and we cannot fail."

But McCain repeated Thursday his demands for more U.S. Special Forces and Arab linguists who can confront the type of insurgency that has become more entrenched as the conflict drags on.

Violence in March has gone well beyond soldiers in the bloodiest month since major combat ended last May 1, claiming the lives of Iraqi police and foreign civilians, including a Canadian.

Security expert Andy Bradsell, 33, an ex-British marine living in Victoria with his wife and young family, died Sunday when a convoy headed to a power station in northern Iraq was ambushed by masked gunmen.

"There are certainly areas of Iraq that remain dangerous," acknowledged the White House's McClellan, "but we will not be deterred by these cowardly, hateful acts."

State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said he expects the attacks to subside after the transfer of sovereignty to Iraq at the end of June.

"(But) there are always going to be a small number of people who prefer to look backwards, rather than look forward."

The comparison to Mogadishu is erroneous, said Ereli, because the U.S.-led coalition is working with Iraqis and the great majority of them have a much brighter vision of the future than Somalians did.

One analyst said Iraqi victims of deposed dictator Saddam Hussein's brutal regime should be enlisted to combat those who oppose the U.S. presence.

"We need to start bringing victims into Fallujah by the thousands," Rob Sobhani of Georgetown University told CNN, adding the incident crystallizes "the depth of rage against American foreign policy."

Punishment for the barbaric acts on the four contract workers "will be precise and it will be overwhelming," U.S. General Mark Kimmitt said in Baghdad.

Paul Bremer, the U.S. administrator in Iraq, said the mob violated "the tenets of all religions including Islam as one of the foundations of civilized society."

Americans have become increasingly divided on whether the U.S. invasion of Iraq was the right move.

While surveys suggested three-quarters of Americans approved last spring during major combat, a CBS-New York Times poll last month suggested that 51 per cent thought it wasn't worth the loss of American lives, while 42 per cent did.

Peace activists, veterans and some military families stepped up their campaign to bring U.S. troops home with massive protests marking the one-year anniversary March 19.

Allegations that top officials exaggerated the threat posed by Iraq and criticism from a former anti-terrorism czar, who charged that Bush was dangerously obsessed with Saddam to the detriment of the war on terror, have fanned opposition.

The president was forced to call a public inquiry into why no weapons of mass destruction have been found in Iraq, but it will not report until next year, well after the election.
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Americans, confronted by shocking images of Iraq barbarism, reminded of Somalia


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## 1feral1 (2 Apr 2004)

It was on the news all over Australia the past 2 days.

The most sickest thing about it is children were involved in the dismemberment and dragging.

This is the Sunni triangle were support for Saddam is still strong.

Even the most professional troops would be looking for some serious payback.

At least the faces of the murderers have been on all over the world, and maybe there is a slim chance that some can be rounded up.

These were US civvy contracters, and imagine the shock their families back in the USA have seen.

The entire incident is an ourage not only to the west, but mainstream Iraqis who want peace and their own democratic country. Lets hope their unnecessary deaths will not be in vain.

Meanwhile the US body count as of a few hrs back has risen to 600. 5 GI‘s KIA. March 04 was the most deadliest month for the US since last yr.

Regards,

Wes


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## Infanteer (2 Apr 2004)

Sometimes I think Machiavelli had it right with "It is better to be feared than loved"

They should send an Arc-Light over Fallujah to send the message that for every American killed by insurgents, the debt will be repaid 100 times.

The kicker was that these guys were protecting an organization trying to rebuild Iraq.  Nice show of appreciation, ****ing savages.


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## K. Ash (2 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
> [qb]
> 
> The most sickest thing about it is children were involved in the dismemberment and dragging.
> ...


Yea it‘s pretty sickening to hear about something like this. Especially the fact how children were involved. What kind of parents could teach their kids that kind of hatred?

It sort of reminds me of the footage from Palestine (I think) after 9.11. When they showed people in the street dancing and cheering about the attacks. It seemed like there were just as many children amongst the people celebrating as adults.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Apr 2004)

..innocence lost.......for what?


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## Jarnhamar (2 Apr 2004)

I have an idea.

One on hand you have Iraq. Where there trying to help, trying to stop mass murders, tourture and terrorisim from happening, yet their killing not olny soldiers but civilians. Ours and their own.

On the other hand you have Israel bombing the crap out of palastine, palastine sending in their little bombers to the market. Killing soldiers and civilians all around.

Iraq is pretty big, why not move people from israel or palastine (whoever loses a round of paper rock scissors, i dont like either country) and send them to live in iraq theres lots of room there. If the natives start getting restless we will throw up a big wall.

We‘ll get canada to pay for the wall and instead of using workers and materials from iraq we‘ll pay 5 times the price to send the workers from canada using canadian materials (again at 5 times the cost) to make it.

Has someone already thought of this???


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## koalorka (2 Apr 2004)

Holy ****! Infanteer lost it!
So you confirm, that you are a Nazi sympathizer and white supremascist?


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## pte anthony (2 Apr 2004)

I would like to comment on this situation but I must reserve my thoughts, for what I would like to say about these people would surely get me kicked off this site   :rage:    :evil:    :skull:


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## Jarnhamar (2 Apr 2004)

Arc lite might be much, id go for a specter gunship the footage is much cooler on CNN.
Then its on to poland.


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## bossi (2 Apr 2004)

I‘m not an expert on the CCC (Criminal Code of Canada), but it sure looked a lot like an offence we call something like "... indignity to a dead body/corpse ..."

However, I‘ll suggest the American commander displayed remarkable restraint - the four civilians were already dead - losing more lives to retrieve their bodies would have been a steep price to pay, whereas now world opinion (at least in some circles) may sway slightly after this display of barbarism.

I admit - not terribly deep/philosophical - just off the cuff musing.


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## Marauder (2 Apr 2004)

FOAD


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## Gunnar (2 Apr 2004)

> Holy ****! Infanteer lost it!
> So you confirm, that you are a Nazi sympathizer and white supremascist?


Your comment assumes facts not in evidence.  In fact, Infanteer said:



> Sometimes I think Machiavelli had it right with "It is better to be feared than loved"
> 
> They should send an Arc-Light over Fallujah to send the message that for every American killed by insurgents, the debt will be repaid 100 times.
> 
> The kicker was that these guys were protecting an organization trying to rebuild Iraq. Nice show of appreciation, ****ing savages.


Keep in mind that Machiavelli was a medieval prince, who understood how you wield power over uncivilized barbarians.  Since this is what they are dealing with in Fallujah <sp?>, and not all of Iraq, this approach seems the one that is likely to be most effective.  Notice how the Balkans wars started up only after the threat of Russian retaliation was removed by the breakup of the Soviet Union?  It means the children behave only so long as there are grown ups around.  

Now, given that they aren‘t our kids, and we don‘t stand to benefit much by turning them into responsible adults you gotta wonder why the West even bothers...but given that we *are* bothering, then they have to realize that WE hold the whip hand, and that they aren‘t too old to be given a spanking.

They are 12th century savages.  They act like it too.  Why beat around the bush about it?

Judging by your post, you seem to believe that there are no objective standards by which one can judge an uncivilized barbarian, and that to make that observation you need to be a racist, Nazi sympathizer.  That‘s an interesting point, but you haven‘t supported that either.  

"It is not wise to venture unsolicited opinions.  You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener."


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## 1feral1 (2 Apr 2004)

There is nothing to say in Infanteer‘s commnents about being a NAZI supporter.

Sadly in today‘s war on terror, and being political correct, we cant just go do something like carpet bomb this city of 500,000 people.

Remember the RCAF along with other allied forces bombed Dresden in Germany killing over 40,000 people in just one night, many who were burnt to ashes from the fire storms caused from the indendiary bombs, so hang up the NAZI accusations. In that war both sides used terror bombings to which each claimed success.

I will agree that they are ‘godless‘ savages doing what they did, and chalk up another peaceful action by a so called peaceful religion!
Another classic example of 13th century mentality with these people in a world of 21st century technology.

Personally, it would not bother me if the whole ME was the worlds biggest ‘glass‘ K-mart parking lot, as I view the whole lot as one giant and dangerous threat. 

I can understand the frustration, and just imagine hwo you‘d feel if you were there seeing the charred remains of Canadians hanging from that bridge. Not a very nice thought, is it.

Regrads,

Wes


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## winchable (2 Apr 2004)

Yes Wes, lets wipe the entire region off the face of the map, that‘ll sure show everyone who the savages are.


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## bubba (2 Apr 2004)

the americans should nuke the sunni triangle then pave it.....i don;t think they can rebuild iraq,this is only going to get worse,i think there going to be there along time.hope im wrong


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## Ex-Dragoon (2 Apr 2004)

Do you think a nuke wil solve the problem? You just made 3 milion martyrs and set back any chance of having any degree of peace in Iraq not to mention the damage it would do to the US relations with other nations the world over. Any state that possess nukes will figure if the US can use nukes in their problem areas and then they can as well. Not a briliant solution.


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## xFusilier (2 Apr 2004)

In "From Beirut to Jerusalem" Thomas Freidman talks about the way that Hafez Al-Assad dealt with the Muslim Brotherhood in Hama.  Basically he shelled the city for 3 week and then sent the tanks in to deal with whatever was left.  Freidman refers to this as "Hama Rules".

The Americans cannot afford to play by Hama Rules.  It‘s pretty hard to play the good guy to the Iraqi people if you are taking a page out of Hafez Al-Assad‘s playbook.  The American public will not stand for it.  America‘s allies will not stand for it, and most certainly those Muslim countries that are friendly/cordial to the US will not stand for it.  Lastly, the Iraqis are going to see right through the ideals that the US is trying to espouse in Iraq as a result of such an action.

The attacks were barbaric to the extreme.  But to impose mass retaliation on a city is not going to solve the problem of it never happening again.  Infact it will probably ensure that it will happen again, more frequently than it did before.

The Coalition Occupation cannot compare with the terror that the Muhabarat and the various other agencies of Ba‘athist rule imposed on Iraq.  The person who is planning and executing these attacks sees this as a weakness on the part of the Occupation.


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## Spr.Earl (2 Apr 2004)

Muslim cleric in Fallujah condemns mutilation of 4 Americans‘ bodies
at 13:00 on April 2, 2004, EST.
HAMZA HENDAWI 




FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - At weekly prayers on Friday, a cleric condemned the mutilation of four slain American contractors in this conservative city, but did not criticize the killings. The U.S. military announced the combat deaths of a soldier and a marine. 

In the capital, a roadside bomb killed an American soldier and wounded another early Friday in the city‘s Mansour district. A U.S. marine also died as a result of hostile action west of the capital a day earlier, the military said. The marine was killed in Anbar province, of which Fallujah is the most populous city. 

Near the northern city of Kirkuk, three people were killed after a bomb they were planting exploded prematurely on Friday, police said. 

The three were planting the bomb at the entrance to a town hall in Riyadh, about 25 kilometres west of Kirkuk, police Col. Iyad al-Jabouri said. Earlier, police had said a suicide bomber detonated explosives at the town hall entrance, killing himself and two other people. 

A police official in Kirkuk also said earlier that U.S. soldiers had been in the town hall, but al-Jabouri said no soldiers were in the building. 

In Fallujah, Sheik Fawzi Nameq addressed 600 worshippers gathered at the Hmood al-Mahmood Mosque, which is opposite the mayor‘s office and a few blocks from the scene of the deadly ambush Wednesday. 

"Islam does not condone the mutilation of the bodies of the dead," the cleric said. 

"Why do you want to bring destruction to our city? Why do you want to bring humiliation to the faithful? My brothers, wisdom is required here," said Nameq, who refrained from making a judgment on the killings. Clerics in Fallujah strongly oppose the U.S.-led occupation and often use sermons to criticize American authority. 

The charred remains of the four Americans were dragged through the streets for hours after insurgents ambushed their vehicles at the heart of Fallujah. Two of the corpses were hung from a bridge as people beat them with shoes and a pole. Iraqi police eventually collected their remains at the request of American troops. 

Senior Fallujah cleric Sheik Khalid Ahmed had said that Muslim preachers in mosques across the city would tell their followers in Friday sermons that the mutilation of the bodies was wrong. He did not say whether they would condemn the killings. 

"Prophet Muhammad prohibited even the mutilation of a dead, mad dog and he considered such a thing as religiously forbidden. What happened in Fallujah is a distortion of Islamic principles and it is forbidden in Islam," he said. 

Brig.-Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy chief of U.S. military operations in Iraq, pledged to hunt down those who carried out the killings, but said clashes could be avoided if Fallujah city officials arrest those responsible for the murders. 

"If they were to deliver these people to the criminal justice system, we will come back in and start the rebuilding of Fallujah. That is their choice," he said. 

There was no sign of a U.S. military buildup around Fallujah on Friday. 

A Fallujah city council member, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the council issued a statement Thursday "condemning the mutilation of the bodies because it contradicts the teachings of Islam," but he did not say whether a decision was made to take action against those responsible for the killings. 

Police on Friday manned regular roadside checkpoints and there was no sign of U.S. troops in or around the city, where a mood of defiance and resolve remained despite the possibility of U.S. military retaliation. 

However, those living on the city‘s outskirts reported some families had left their homes for the safety of relatives‘ dwellings deep inside the city. 

Traffic in the city was heavy, with traffic wardens joined at major intersections by members of the Iraqi Civil Defence Corps, a security force set up by the U.S. military to help in the fight against the insurgency. Many shops were open. 

"Islam bans what was done to the bodies, but the Americans are as brutal as the youths who burned and mutilated the bodies," said Mahdi Ahmed Saleh, 61, a retired primary school principal who now runs a grocery store. 

U.S. commanders defended their decision not to send forces into Fallujah on Wednesday to retrieve the bodies. 

Kimmitt said U.S. forces didn‘t respond for fear of ambushes and the possibility that insurgents would use civilians as human shields. "A pre-emptive attack into the city could have taken a bad situation and made it even worse," he said. 

"We are not going to do a pell-mell rush into the city. It will be deliberate, it will be precise and it will be overwhelming," he said. "We will re-establish control of that city. ... It will be at the time and place of our choosing." 

Fallujah has been the scene of some of the worst anti-U.S. violence since the beginning of the U.S.-led occupation nearly a year ago. The insurgents appear to enjoy the support - or at least acquiescence - of a significant part of the population. 

Late Thursday, gunmen fired on two police cars in the city of Baqouba, 50 kilometres northeast of Baghdad, killing three officers and wounding two, according to Loua‘ie Adel, an official at the city‘s general hospital.


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## 1feral1 (2 Apr 2004)

Thanks Che. If you are so much in love with the region, why dont you go back?

Regards,

Wes


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## bubba (2 Apr 2004)

hey ex dragoon i just seen those pictures of them bodies hangin from the bridge,makes me pissed,theres never been a real peace in the middle east,and i don‘t think were goin to see it in are time.those contractors were there to help rebuild there infastructure. so much for that eh,.and after seein those pictures i don‘t care how many martyrs they make////  :fifty:


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## Ex-Dragoon (3 Apr 2004)

So have I bubba....but a nuke will only make things worse. Won‘t solve anything. Only thing it will do is gratify your lust for more killing.


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## Michael Dorosh (3 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
> [qb] Thanks Che. If you are so much in love with the region, why dont you go back?
> 
> Regards,
> ...


If you hate them so much, why aren‘t you over there gun in hand.

Knock off the smart-arse comments.  The point made was that wiping out a bunch of innocent civilians is not going to accomplish anything, and certainly the existence of even a few thousand "bad apples" is not justification enough to murder even one innocent civilian.

Kind of what makes "us" better than "them", or so I always thought.


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## Spr.Earl (3 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by bub:
> [qb] hey ex dragoon i just seen those pictures of them bodies hanging from the bridge,makes me pissed,theres never been a real peace in the middle east,and i don‘t think were going to see it in are time.those contractors were there to help rebuild there infrastructure. so much for that eh,.and after seein those pictures i don‘t care how many martyrs they make////   :fifty:  [/qb]


You have alot to learn youngen!
Have you ever seen a land destroyed by War?
A lot of us here have and it‘s not pretty!!

Driving around and alls you see is burnt out,bombed buildings,no animals but the refuse of war.

In Zygon when we set up the Demo range for UXO and other munitions disposal we did a recce first,we found the personal belonging‘s of those who tried to escape,cloths and suit cases all over the trail,photographs also, going up to the ridge.
To this day I still wonder about those who left their belongings on that trail.

To do a wrong to counter a wrong does not make it right,it just lowers us to their level and thats what they want for propaganda to prove we are against them.


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## 1feral1 (3 Apr 2004)

For Mike, I was referring to the constant frustration in the region. My answer was directed at Che, who responded hostile.

What am I doing about it? Due to OPSEC I cant say, but I assure you its more than you are doing on a Tuesday night! 

As for my level of tolorence, it thins daily, as does many others. We are far from Canada here, and Islamic terror groups are common in the region, and its VERY real here. I wish it wasnt but it is.

Quite frankly I have had a gutful of it all, and it sickens me even more after the 4 civvy contractors were shamlessly murdered, with the participation of kids. What are they going to grow up like?

I see the anti-west attitudes daily here by the constant powerbase of ‘them‘ which grows monthly in this country, so unless you see and taste the frustration, along with a bit of fear (my GF was even spat at recently for her western dress) do a wait out. The beautiful western Cdn city of Calgary is a long way from here, but I assure you in every major Cdn city trouble brews, as the locals have the attitude ‘it cant happen here‘.

When it comes to Australia, and it directly will, as even the PM has confessed is just a matter of time (and it has already thru Bali on 12 Oct 02 with 202 people killed including one man from Saskatchewan, and 89 Australians, which included whole families vapourised, some of which lived odown my street). I see their memorial every day. fresh flowers, sometimes candle lit.

When was the last time a group of 89 Canadians innocent civlians ever killed at once by a terrorist bomb? I say never, and I hope it never happen anywhere, but it will. We cant count the 06 Dec 1917 explosiion in Halifax, but that killed over 2000 outright, and that was an accident.

Checkout www.islamicsydney.com and patrol thru it, especially the forums. 

So Mike, read between the lines before you send out a UD/ND, and stay safe in the finance office!

Regards,

Wes


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## winchable (3 Apr 2004)

Anyway Wes I would like to chat with you via PM before this touches anything else, that potentially brushes racism.
God forbid I should respond hostilty when you suggest you turn my birthpace into a parking lot.
I go back once a year thankyou.
But as I have proceeded thus far,
I will not allow you to create that rise,


Regards Malik,


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## 1feral1 (3 Apr 2004)

Racism? Dont think so, just an international terrosit group who wants the west DEAD! 

Was my GF spat at because she was an Australian and a westerner? Yes, but all‘s I could do was leave the area (in disgust) as we were swarmed by about 15 males ages 18-20yrs old, ALL of ‘middle eastern appearance‘ who were acting in a mob mentality, some chanted Aussie slut!

So what do you think of that?

The state and federal govt has predicted a terror attack will happen, and I wonder who‘s behind that?

Hummm, you think about it. 

regards,

Wes

PS email if ya want on feral99@hotmail.com as i would welcome a good discussion on this.


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## Spr.Earl (3 Apr 2004)

We can argue to our hearts content but we must all come together and make peace.

It is Man who has made the different religions for his own ends not God.There is only one God and that is the God of all of us on this earth.


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## 1feral1 (3 Apr 2004)

Theres no such thing as an athiest in a foxhole!

Cheers,

Wes


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## Mike Bobbitt (3 Apr 2004)

Ok folks, this is steering way off course here.

I think we can all agree on some basic things, like the recent civilian murders in Iraq are unforgivable, and that there are terrorists operating with malicious intent in each of our countries, putting us and our families at risk.

However, condemning an entire race or population to death as a result of the actions of a few doesn‘t make sense. There have been acts of sickening barbarism by "born and raised" Canadians and Australians alike (civvy crimes) - and I‘d be pretty unhappy if someone killed my family as "random retribution."

Anyway, I‘m not here to drag the debate out any further. Things are getting personal and unprofessional, so take it offline or clean it up.


Cheers
Mike


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## Infanteer (5 Apr 2004)

I can see that matters are getting very personal here, so as Mr Bobbitt has requested, I‘m not going to add any fuel to the fire.  However, I would like to reflect of the consequences of the last week for Canada, the West, and the Middle East.  

We say it is only a small minority who commits these attacks, yet whole cities openly take to the streets cheering the September 11 attacks (an attack which very nearly killed my father), and kids dismember American civilian corpses in the streets of Fallujah.  Spain is targeted for further attacks while an entire family of terrorists hides out in Canada.  Today, mass violence in Iraq broke out over support for a cleric who‘s popularity is based upon virolent attacks on the West.

Does this signify that the problem is worse than we thought?  I want to believe that the problem is a dastardly cabal of violent fundamentalists, pushing for their own ends, but every day, my patience grows thinner and my belief in this fades.

I am NOT suggesting that it is a black and white, us-vs-them, situation.  However, I no longer believe this is just the concerted effort of a terrorist group.  I feel lines are being drawn in the sand by both the West and the Middle East that are making a return to any previous status irrelavant.  Are we approaching Huntington‘s "Clash of Civilizations"?

Anyways, the last few years of my life have seen my outlook on humanity as a whole dim significantly....


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## 1feral1 (5 Apr 2004)

Good post Inf!

Cheers,

Wes


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## Engineer Corporal (5 Apr 2004)

I am saddened to see ppl posting the parking lot option.I would tend to agree that for every action their is a opposite reaction. This war on terror has the distinct possibility of going on for a decade or more. More than likely if the U.S. continues to use preemptive strikes then this war is far from over indeed. Could the Middle East with their back against the wall unite? Toppling of some of the governments is a very real possibility. In ten years who knows what the strategic situation could be. A united Middle East is exactly what Osama wants to happen. Perish the thought.


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## Pieman (5 Apr 2004)

US are already starting to respond to these attacks. I am kind of suprised they sealed off the city. Looks like this is going to be a big operation. Either way, looks like they are going to kick some serious butt!

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U.S. forces seal off Fallujah
Last Updated Mon, 05 Apr 2004 8:38:01

FALLUJAH, IRAQ - American troops sealed off the city of Fallujah Monday as they prepared to respond to an attack on four U.S. contractors last week.

    * INDEPTH: Iraq

The mission, code-named Vigilant Resolve, involves 1,200 Marines as well as two battalions of Iraqi forces. They will move into the mainly Sunni Muslim city to look for insurgents loyal to former leader Saddam Hussein who may be connected to last week‘s attack.

On Wednesday, Iraqis fired on four civilian security contractors travelling with a food convoy through Fallujah, killing the Americans in their vehicles. Their burned bodies were mutilated and dragged through the streets before two of the charred corpses were hung from a bridge as cheering Iraqis celebrated.

    * FROM MARCH 31, 2003: Bodies brutalized after Iraq ambush

The manoeuvres in Fallujah come a day after militants loyal to a firebrand Shiite cleric attacked U.S.-led coalition forces in four cities in throughout the country in one of the bloodiest days of fighting since the fall of Saddam Hussein.

At least eight American soldiers, a Salvadoran and as many as 60 Iraqis died in the uprising linked to Muqtada al-Sadr, who opposes the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq. Hundreds more were injured as battles raged in Baghdad, Najaf, Nasiriyah and Amarah.

The U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, condemned al-Sadr Monday as an "outlaw" and a threat to the Iraqi people.


Paul Bremer

"Effectively he is attempting to establish his authority in the place of the legitimate authority. We will not tolerate this," Bremer said. "We will reassert the law and order which the Iraqi people expect."

Al-Sadr, 30, called off Sunday‘s show of force after the battles had raged for several hours. He issued a statement saying that street protests would be replaced by a sit-in at a mosque in Kufa, where he‘s been delivering anti-American sermons for months.

    * FROM APRIL 4, 2004: Dozens die in anti-U.S. clashes in Iraq

Sunday‘s events opened up a new range of security concerns for the Americans.

So far, their biggest threat has come from Sunni Muslims, the sector of the population that enjoyed preferential treatment under the reign of Saddam, himself a Sunni.

Shiite Muslims, who form the majority of Iraq‘s population, welcomed the fall of Saddam for the most part and had until now avoided clashing with the Americans.

Written by CBC News Online staff 
--------------------------------------------------
 http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/04/05/world/baghdad_outlaw040405


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## winchable (5 Apr 2004)

> I gives a **** if some terrorists don‘t like getting ****ed up...to bad...they **** with us, we will bring a world of hurt down on them like they have never felt before!


What makes them so very dangerous as compared to any other foe, is the fact that don‘t care if they get ****ed up. It‘s hard for people in secular countries to understand, but when someone is so deeply committed to their religion and so fervent in their belief of the afterlife, death isn‘t the end, it‘s just another thing that happens before the afterlife, so why fear it?
If anyone has seen the movie "Live from Bagdhad" this point is illustrated in one scene where a cab driver asks the news reporter from CNN if he fears death, the reporter says "yes". He then asks the same question of the cab driver, and the Cab driver says "no" just as a few poorly armed soliders cross the road to man an AA battery.

That being said, a united ME should be a very scary thing, if someone were to actually be able to direct all the ME towards one common direction, then it would be much more difficult than it is now, in fact, it might be impossible to defeat such a movement. The people of the ME can be very committed to a cause if they believe in, committed so much more then any western people could be. This could work for, or against, the West.

Sometimes I wonder if the terrorists are in fact one step ahead of the West in that they see that the violence they are carrying out is acting as a unifier for the people of the ME, mobilising them into one direction. For example; They commit a terrorist act, we retaliate, collateral damage occurs the terrorists having access to the people at the grassroots level which the West will never have, can use this retaliation as a method of unifying the people against the invaders.

It is going to be frustrating for anyone and everyone involved, and the "us" vs. "them" attitude is going to become more clearly defined in the future, with violence uniting those which want to go the distance, and those who are more liberal in their views and wish to avoid violence but carve out a distinction from the West nonetheless being united against this, and the West lumping us all into one giant brown bag and melting sand into glass etc. for failing to base their interactions on a case by case basis.

In short, it is much too complex a problem to simply say "blow em all to **** with our big nuclear weapons" or "lets be gentle with them all and be completely passive" sticking to either policy rigidly will not work.

For my own part, I‘ll continue to adhere to the point that it is still a minority. Revelling in the street that we see on CNN after 9/11 is a minority; how many people were cowering in their concrete apartments after that happened? I would wager any amount that the people inside were still far greater then those outside. To paint every arab/muslim with the same brush is the problem that will ultimately lead to the destruction of just about everyone, through the unification of the same people we blanket coat as a result of that blanket blame. I mean think about it, if one blanket blames everyone as being a terrorist, it would only seem feasible that everyone would take on the role they feel they‘ve been given by the Western world.

Anyway, by jayzus that‘s a long post.
I can‘t emphasize enough that I and a majority of Muslims certainly condemn the killing (or any brutality for that matter) as we do have the forethought to see the outcome of such brutality as ending in the demise of what everyone is working to achieve.
It‘s easy to understand why some people have such a sour view of the Arab/Muslim male based on the actions of a few, but rest assured, it is just as easy for the Arab/Muslim male to have a soured opinion on the West based on the action of the few. So I would ask everyone to simply consider that fact before they condemn the ME to death.

So I‘ll cut it off there, and let everyone post links to extremist muslim websites, and give examples of the Arab/Muslim male behaving in a despicable manner. It makes no difference I know for my own part that I have no hate for anyone and have enough faith in the majority of my people to know they feel the same way.

So burn down the village to save it if you must.
This is becoming dangerously personal on my behalf, and I will have to duck out of this before it somehow sparks the end of the world.

Regards


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## bossi (5 Apr 2004)

On the other hand (NO pun intended) ...
Maybe it‘s kinda like cancer - sometimes you have to cut out a little extra in order to make sure you‘ve got the entire tumour (e.g. masectomy).
Certainly this analogy works vis-a-vis chemotheraphy ... (i.e. nuke ‘em).

It‘s fascinating, however, to note all the present day hysteria surrounding suicide bombers - after all, they‘re nothing new (i.e. kamikaze bombers in WWII, and the entire samurai thing, for that matter).



> "Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death."
> -- Miyamoto Musashi, The Book of Five Rings
> 
> Samurai had no fear of death. They would enter any battle no matter the odds.
> ...


So ... how‘d we get the kamikaze bombers to give up?
In twenty-five words or less, maybe they quit/gave up because their cause was threatened with extinction ... (?)

Sure, it‘s a shame when a few bad apples cause a basket to be thrown out ... as opposed to the entire crop (?)  Sure, it sucks to be in the wrong basket - but that‘s life; it‘s not fair.
Personally, I‘m just glad we live in Canada instead of a nation suicidally consumed with racial/religious hatred, and I sure hope we can keep said hatred out.

I‘m just sorry that our immigration forms/paperwork doesn‘t include a clause to the effect that immigrants/refugees must agree to NOT continue to stoke the fires of the civil wars/violence/terrorism in their homeland (i.e. violating the safe haven Canada offers them) - punishable by deportation to whence they came.



> Moderate Muslims cannot ignore the terror in their midst
> By Barbara Amiel
> (Filed: 05/04/2004)
> 
> ...


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