# Cremated Taliban as Psy-Op Tool?



## The Bread Guy (20 Oct 2005)

http://tinyurl.com/cj8wq

"Australian television on Wednesday broadcast footage of what it said was U.S. soldiers burning the corpses of two dead Taliban fighters with their bodies laid out facing Mecca and using the images in a propaganda campaign in southern Afghanistan.  The television report said U.S. soldiers burned the bodies for hygienic reasons but then a U.S. psychological operations unit broadcast a propaganda message on loudspeakers to Taliban fighters, taunting them to retrieve their dead and fight....."

This paper isn't a rag, and has generally very good military coverage, but still...

How true can this be?

If it's true, how effective can this be?

???


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## Big T (20 Oct 2005)

haha, that is quite intelligent!


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## Gunnerlove (20 Oct 2005)

I feel a LOAC lecture coming on.


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## the 48th regulator (20 Oct 2005)

You can see an interview with the Photo Journalist Stephen DuPont on sbs news from Australia, regarding the footage, and what was done after with it.

dileas

tess


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## Jarnhamar (20 Oct 2005)

So not only are the Americans being sanitary, their also respecting the religious practices of their enemy AND giving them a chance to get the bodies.

What was it they do to our bodies? Oh ya...


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## fleeingjam (20 Oct 2005)

I wonder what's next...


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## 1feral1 (20 Oct 2005)

Well, after staggering back from the RAInf Crops Mess, with away too many CC and ginger ales down my gullet, I watched the programme from my bed in the Sergeant's Mess Quarters at Singleton. The long-hair lefty videographer was enbedded with the US unit, and everything said seemed to play against the US in typical leftist fashion saying the US were frustrated and could not find the EN, so to lure them out for a fight, faced the EN dead west, not east to antagonise the EN forces.

The KIAs had been dead for over 24hrs, and the US forces burned them for hygenic reasons, so what if a bit of pshyc-warfare was used. If any tool can be used to interfere with the EN in any way, bring him out for a fight, and defeat him, go for it. After all its WAR isn't it? Not a devonshire tea at Sussex Inlet!

I watched the whole interview, and took it as a grain of salt. Overall giving it a 1.3/10 for quality information, and a 8.5/10 for anti-war propaganda.

Cheers,

Wes


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## 2 Cdo (20 Oct 2005)

Wes, while I personally don't really care what or why they did to the bodies what was done I will add, sometimes Psy-Ops can have no effect on your enemy and even worse sometimes backfire. Troops today will have to learn that having cameras around 24/7 means being extra vigilant. All it takes is a few seconds of footage with a decided left-wing, anti-military voice over to royally screw up everything that you've worked hard to achieve!


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## The Bread Guy (20 Oct 2005)

> All it takes is a few seconds of footage with a decided left-wing, anti-military voice over to royally screw up everything that you've worked hard to achieve!



One mistake, millions of viewers - interesting risk management.....


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## abimopectore (22 Oct 2005)

Obviously blatant ignorance and lack of respect that of Geneva Conventions and that of a human body. All those psycho-op experts? 
disrespect for Islamic religious practices? how would anyone react to a foreign army killing the locals and making fun of their religion (even if one does not practice it?) If you do not win the hearts of the people you can forget about winning the war. Thank God for Canadian soldiers, but again, wars always attract criminal minds and in every crowd there will be one or two (like the ones who burned the bodies and
enjoyed the whole spectacle. (yes, I have seen the footage on TV)​


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## muskrat89 (22 Oct 2005)

> Obviously blatant ignorance and lack of respect that of Geneva Conventions



Really, Mr. No-Profile?



> Article 17. Parties to the conflict shall ensure that burial or cremation of the dead, carried out individually as far as circumstances permit, is preceded by a careful examination, if possible by a medical examination, of the bodies, with a view to confirming death, establishing identity and enabling a report to be made. One half of the double identity disc, or the identity disc itself if it is a single disc, should remain on the body.
> 
> Bodies shall not be cremated except for imperative reasons of hygiene or for motives based on the religion of the deceased.



Now, I'm not sure how strong their "hygiene" argument is.. but I would say your statement is forceful, but "off the mark"


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## scm77 (22 Oct 2005)

*Stench Prompted U.S. Troops to Burn Corpses*

The desecration of Taliban dead prompts outrage in Afghanistan

There simply wasn't enough room on the rocky hilltop above Gonbaz village in southern Afghanistan for the U.S. platoon and the corpses of the two Taliban fighters.* The Taliban men had been killed in a firefight 24 hours earlier, and in the 90 degree heat, their bodies had become an unbearable presence, soldiers who were present have told TIME.* Nor was the U.S. Army unit about to leave â â€ the hilltop commanded a strategic view of the village below where other Taliban were suspected to be hiding.

*Earlier, Lt. Eric Nelson, the leader of B Company, I-508 platoon leader had sent word down to Gonbaz asking the villagers to pick up the bodies and bury them according to Muslim ritual. But the villagers refused â â€ probably because the dead fighters weren't locals but Pakistanis, surmised one U.S. army officer.*

*It was then that Lt. Nelson took the decision that could jeopardize his service career. "We decided to burn the bodies," one soldier recounts, "because they were bloated and they stank."* News of this cremation may have remained on these scorching hills of southern Afghanistan, had the gruesome act not been recorded on film by an Australian photojournalist, Stephen Dupont. Instead, when the footage aired on Australian TV on Wednesday, it unleashed world outrage. A Pentagon spokesman described the incident as "repugnant" and said that the army was launching a criminal investigation into the alleged desecration of the corpses, which is in violation of the Geneva Convention on human rights.

Fueling the furor was the fact that the TV report showed that after the bodies were torched, a U.S. Psychological-Operations team descended on Gonbaz in Humvees with their loudspeakers booming: "Taliban, you are cowardly dogs. You are too scared to come down and retrieve the bodies. This just proves you are the lady-boys we always believed you to be."

Muslims traditionally bury their dead, and as one Kabul cleric Mohammed Omar told newsmen, "The burning of these bodies is an offense against Muslims every where. Bodies are burned only in Hell." But as one U.S. officer in Kandahar pointed out, the Taliban and al Qaeda never show any qualms about defiling the bodies of dead Afghan or American soldiers. Afghan President Hamid Karzai, anxious to quell any new wave of protests against the U.S. troops in Afghanistan of the sort that followed allegations of Koran desecration at Guantanamo, publicly condemned the burnings. A statement from the U.S. military command for Afghanistan said, "Under no circumstances does U.S. Central Command condone the desecration, abuse or inappropriate treatment of enemy combatants."

http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1121939,00.html


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## 1feral1 (23 Oct 2005)

abimopectore said:
			
		

> (yes, I have seen the footage on TV)​



I think that about sums things up for the quality of Mr no-profile.

Wes


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## Infanteer (23 Oct 2005)

scm77 said:
			
		

> Fueling the furor was the fact that the TV report showed that after the bodies were torched, a U.S. Psychological-Operations team descended on Gonbaz in Humvees with their loudspeakers booming: "Taliban, you are cowardly dogs. You are too scared to come down and retrieve the bodies. This just proves you are the lady-boys we always believed you to be."
> 
> ....
> 
> But as one U.S. officer in Kandahar pointed out, the Taliban and al Qaeda never show any qualms about defiling the bodies of dead Afghan or American soldiers.



Ahh, I see we our abilities to go "tribal" are coming out.

I refuse to armchair quarterback the guy (just like the other individual incidents that take headlines) as I wasn't there and I don't have a detailed report on what went down.   Needless to say:

1)   Abimopectore is out to lunch with his rant.

2)   There does seem to be some legal allowance for what was done (thanks for the article scm).

3)   Perhaps a reasoned arguement can be made about getting "tribal" with a "tribal" enemy - if the _jihad_ is a spiritual struggle on the temporal plane, is there something to be said for taking the battle to the spiritual level?   Perhaps ruthless deterence is the option in some cases?

http://www.ausa.org/pdfdocs/ARMYMag/Hurley_Aug05.pdf


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## Brad Sallows (23 Oct 2005)

It is a curious thing that disposal of remains should generate more interest than the killing which preceded.


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## geo (23 Oct 2005)

Am truly surprised that the Psyop boys openly came out while the embeded newsies were present.... Psyops activities have blown up in people's faces oh too often.


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## Baloo (23 Oct 2005)

So, they gave the nearby Muslim locals a chance to come, get the dead, and bury them in religious fashion.

They receive a big negatory in return.

The villagers were given the chance to come and retrieve the deceased. Since they did not, they can't complaing about the treatment.


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## Kat Stevens (23 Oct 2005)

Personally, I think that it should be broadly announced that the remains of any martyrs that can be found, will be wrapped in a pig skin and thrown in an offal pit. Paradise, DENIED!  I wonder how many beheaded western hostages were treated to a decent burial after their murder?







edited for typos


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## geo (23 Oct 2005)

It is more than likely that the deceased were not from the community.
It is most likely that the deceased were Taliban or maybe even Al Q'Aida
The villagers would not want to give the impression that they support either of the organisations (they're not stupid).... so of course they did not come up and pick up the corpses.... they also probably expected the US to either bury the bodies as per custom OR leave em on the battlefield where they lay.

The fact that the US went to the trouble of burning the bodies would probably have passed ok based on sanitary rules which is a key point in Islam

but the Psyops spin on things was designed to make someone mad..... guess what; it worked!

Good job boys


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## Goldsmith (23 Oct 2005)

In the west we've always taken pride that we had the moral high ground, whatever basic human rights or rules of war were violated by the enemy, we were above that. To any afghani that hears of this, what differentiates us from the soviets? Between this, Gitmo, and Abu Graib I'm beginning to wonder where our moral compass has gone, and what happened to the US army of the Gulf war and Somalia.


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## Baloo (23 Oct 2005)

Other than a completely retarded argument there, Goldsmith, couple things.

1) We (Canada) have nothing to do with Gitmo, and even less to do with Abu Ghraib.

2) Comparing the Soviets and the US in the same sentence is laughable. At best.

Keep working at it.


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## geo (23 Oct 2005)

Baloo,
To certain in Afghanistan.... we're all invaders
Soviets or Americans figured they knew better and did not spend much time paying attention to customs & religion..... 
Good for a giggle?


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## Acorn (23 Oct 2005)

Baloo, I won't call you a "retard," but I will question your reading skills. Or are you so simple as to think it makes a jot of difference to the average Afghani that we aren't American?


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## Goldsmith (23 Oct 2005)

You're right, Canada has nothing to do with abu graib, but I wasn't talking about Canada.

I'll be a bit more clear. 
Actions like this are incredibly insulting to Muslims, and it'll go a long way towards alienating the population. To the people of Afghanistan it looks awfully familiar to the abuses of the soviets in the '80s; in fact I'm sure the Taliban probably gained a few recruits out of it. Most importantly, this is not how a western army acts, we should play by the rules of war we write.


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## Brad Sallows (23 Oct 2005)

And some of their actions are awfully insulting to us.  Perhaps they should be the ones tiptoeing around trying not to offend us, and yielding to our cultural preferences when there is a collision of cultural practices.  There is no particular reason for us to kowtow to them rather than vice versa, since they're unlikely to respect us more for being accommodating and showing weakness.


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## Kat Stevens (23 Oct 2005)

Try to fight an unconventional enemy by conventional means, you will die in the conventional way.  When are we going to get that?  Personally, I am insulted by suicide bombers and decapitation of non combatants, but that's just me, apparently.


edit for clarity


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## Baloo (23 Oct 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> Baloo, I won't call you a "retard," but I will question your reading skills. Or are you so simple as to think it makes a jot of difference to the average Afghani that we aren't American?



I won't call you a "retard", but I'll ask you where you're coming from.

Did I ever mention a difference between Americans and Canadians? Last time I checked in this, no, I didn't. 

But what I will do, is give the majority of Afghans the benefit of the doubt and say that they will recognize the difference between Soviet occupation in the late 1980s and the current bout of fighting going on in the outlying provinces. I've talked to Afghans, one who fought the Soviets as well, and they can differentiate between Americans and Soviets. Of course, not all can, that is granted. A foreign power coming to uproot their previous government and battle fellow Afghans. Will the majority of Afghans like it? Not necessarily, but they will still note that a) the Americans are NOT Red Army soldiers, out to destroy their culture and heritage and b) the Taliban has been removed, for the better. 

I will grant that Goldsmith, in your second post, I will agree with the fact that incidents like this certainly do not help the struggle, and will taint our standing with the locals, whether or not the troops on the ground intended those consequences (PsyOps probably did not...but will pay the price). 

I contended in my second point that OUR (I am still unsure what Goldsmith meant...American? Canadian? All of the above?)  moral compass was not being affected for the worse, nor was that of the American Army as a whole. Goldsmith contended that he wished for the Army of the Gulf or Somalia, and incidents in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib destroyed that credibility. Considering the soldiers in question are being tried, convicted and this is certainly not an Army endorsed action (torture, etc.), I fail to see how the American moral compass (on a military strategic / tactical level) has in any way been affected, or is any worse than previous decades.


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## Brad Sallows (24 Oct 2005)

The practical inability to always walk a completely straight moral line doesn't mean we've lost our moral bearing.


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## 1feral1 (24 Oct 2005)

Goldsmith said:
			
		

> In the west we've always taken pride that we had the moral high ground, whatever basic human rights or rules of war were violated by the enemy, we were above that. To any afghani that hears of this, what differentiates us from the soviets? Between this, Gitmo, and Abu Graib I'm beginning to wonder where our moral compass has gone, and what happened to the US army of the Gulf war and Somalia.



This whole event has been blown up out of proportion (brought on by a lefty videographer)! A few dead EN soldiers. At least we did not leave them lying in a street beheaded or drag them thru the streets in their underwear after they were shot down, or wait.... hanging their burnt corspes from a bridge. They were cremated. There is a difference. 

Quite frankly I am beyond insulted by the beheadings and the cold blooded murder of other infidels in this sickening war (yes all war is sickening), and again quite frankly I don't care if i insult any muslims saying such either. Seems the liberal left all all to happy to bow to these minorities. Think about it as you sit around your 'holiday' tree this Christmas. Oops, can I say that without offending? 

My patience is running VERY thin.

Wes


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## Goldsmith (24 Oct 2005)

> b) the Taliban has been removed, for the better.


Agreed


> At least we did not leave them lying in a street beheaded or drag them thru the streets in their underwear after they were shot down, or wait.... hanging their burnt corspes from a bridge. They were cremated. There is a difference



 Its pretty enraging to see Iraqis throwing rocks at the strung-up, charred remains of contractors while a crowd taunts and screams. I would speculate(I'm no expert on muslim culture) that muslims would be equally enraged, regardless of their opinion of American actions, seeing americans taunt them with loudspeakers while their dead are desecrated. Without getting too far off topic, Abu Ghraib isnt just an isolated incident and personally, I think the disregard of the geneva conventions classifies as a failure to uphold our values.


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## 1feral1 (24 Oct 2005)

Goldsmith said:
			
		

> desecrated.
> 
> Abu Ghraib isnt just an isolated incident and personally, I think the disregard of the geneva conventions classifies as a failure to uphold our values.



Whats wrong with cremating the dead, especially when hygene is invloved. Is it an offence to muslims? Cremation was wide spread thru the tsunami regions, and secondly at Abu Grhrib, that was a fairlure in command and those actions do not speak for US and allied involvement during this war.

At the end of the day, get the media out of the units and prosecute this war without hinderance. You cannot fight and WIN a war being PC.

Wes


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## geo (24 Oct 2005)

Wes,
You are right when you say that if it was strictly a matter of hygene, most people, Afghans and Muslims as a whole would not begrudge the act... radical problems require radical solutions.... 
While that "lefty" newsie certainly has not helped things along.... Psyops guys didn't do much better IMHO.
The US have been talking "the moral High ground" so using this as a means to taunt the locals beligerents has had the reverse effect on the local citzens.

The Afghan gov't is trying to tell the Afghan people that they are the good guys and that the Taliban (and their friends) are the bad guys.... it's the US spin doctors in Psyops that have screwed the pooch IMHO


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## tomahawk6 (24 Oct 2005)

If there had been no journalist present no one would be the wiser. It is my information that the soldiers asked the local village to bury the Taliban dead. The village declined. After a 24 hour period the bodies were burned and psyops decided to use the moment to taunt the Taliban. I dont see a violation of the UCMJ or Geneva Convention in this instance. Personally I would have left the bodies to rot.


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Oct 2005)

abimopectore said:
			
		

> Obviously blatant ignorance and lack of respect that of Geneva Conventions and that of a human body. All those psycho-op experts?
> disrespect for Islamic religious practices? how would anyone react to a foreign army killing the locals and making fun of their religion (even if one does not practice it?) If you do not win the hearts of the people you can forget about winning the war. Thank God for Canadian soldiers, but again, wars always attract criminal minds and in every crowd there will be one or two (like the ones who burned the bodies and
> enjoyed the whole spectacle. (yes, I have seen the footage on TV)​



Well stated.


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Oct 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Whats wrong with cremating the dead, especially when hygene is invloved.



What's wrong with just burying them good and deep?


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Oct 2005)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> And some of their actions are awfully insulting to us.   Perhaps they should be the ones tiptoeing around trying not to offend us, and yielding to our cultural preferences when there is a collision of cultural practices.   There is no particular reason for us to kowtow to them rather than vice versa, since they're unlikely to respect us more for being accommodating and showing weakness.



Does this not put aside the fact that we're IN THEIR COUNTRY?


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## geo (24 Oct 2005)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> If there had been no journalist present no one would be the wiser. It is my information that the soldiers asked the local village to bury the Taliban dead. The village declined. After a 24 hour period the bodies were burned and psyops decided to use the moment to taunt the Taliban. I dont see a violation of the UCMJ or Geneva Convention in this instance. Personally I would have left the bodies to rot.


Tomahawk.... the Platoon leader did nothing wrong. Matter of fact, he went out of his way to ask the local villagers to come and take / bury the insurgent's bodies.

If anything - most people are griping about what Psyops chose to do with the hijacked footage... 
Because the footage has been aired in such a negative manner, the Plt Comd's actions are being twisted into an Anti Taliban act... and his ass is on the carpet because of it.

The Plt Comd did no wrong!


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## a_majoor (24 Oct 2005)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Wes, while I personally don't really care what or why they did to the bodies what was done I will add, sometimes Psy-Ops can have no effect on your enemy and even worse sometimes backfire. Troops today will have to learn that having cameras around 24/7 means being extra vigilant. All it takes is a few seconds of footage with a decided left-wing, anti-military voice over to royally screw up everything that you've worked hard to achieve!



If this story is true (and there is always a chance that some of this is made up), then the Psyops people bungled their part of the job:



> _'Psychological Operations:  Planned operations to convey selected information and indicators to foreign audiences to influence their emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of foreign governments, organizations, groups, and individuals. The purpose of psychological operations is to induce or reinforce foreign attitudes and behavior favorable to the originator's objectives. Also called PSYOP. See also consolidation psychological operations; overt peacetime psychological operations programs; perception management. ' US Department of Defense  _



Given that Afghanistan is dominated by warrior cultures, getting into a pissing contest along those lines is counterproductive at best. Indeed, by proclaiming you are the biggest and baddest warrior in the valley, the preseige associated with "taking you out" becomes disproportionate. This isn't to say being meek and mild is the way to go, but an air of quiet confidence and a well honed message is what is needed. If the Psyops people really did mount an OP using the cremation of the dead, then I would suspect it was an off the cuff "good idea" that some junior person made on the spot without thinking through the larger consequences.


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## geo (24 Oct 2005)

Bingo!

Even here at home, when we talk / deal with our Amerindian canadians.... some of em are carrying a chip on their shoulder that is a couple of hundred years long. Does not take much to set off the powder keg when you don't think before placing mouth into gear

What is the point of getting into a pissing contest


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## tomahawk6 (24 Oct 2005)

I made no comment as to whether the platoon leader did anything wrong. Although if you see the Pentagon reaction to the story the young Lt seem's to not get the benefit of the doubt. I for one support the actions of the Lt, unless something should surface that would indicate otherwise. Second guessing the troops in the field is a professional hazard in this pc world.


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## Infanteer (24 Oct 2005)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I made no comment as to whether the platoon leader did anything wrong. Although if you see the Pentagon reaction to the story the young Lt seem's to not get the benefit of the doubt. I for one support the actions of the Lt, unless something should surface that would indicate otherwise. Second guessing the troops in the field is a professional hazard in this pc world.



+1.


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Oct 2005)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Second guessing the troops in the field is a professional hazard in this pc world.



I'm getting tired of seeing "PC" used as if it's a dirty word.  PC has led to some unfortunate situations, which have their own handy labels - I'm thinking of reverse discrimination primarily.  But on the whole, if the quote civilized world unquote has become more tolerant and understanding, put me in the camp that thinks that's a good thing.

Second guessing troops in the field may or may not represent real hazards, but of course troops in the field also have a responsibility to carry out the intent - not just the commands - of their leadership.  

Using a f'rinstance here, maybe a big one, but if you're busily and publicly desecrating enemy dead while someone else from your company is being taken prisoner elsewhere...


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## 1feral1 (24 Oct 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> What's wrong with just burying them good and deep?



Decaying bodies in 35C, plus the sun, burying them most likely in super hard ground, rock maybe, so time is a factor, while only having an Etool, then handling corpses without proper IPE, plus the digging etc,and exposure of the troops possibly to EN fire (direct or worse indirect) while digging. I would NOT ask my men to do that, when there is a 20 litre jerry of mogas or diesel handy. 

Common sense, heath, safety, stamina, and the morale of my men comes first, before anything else. 

Cheers,

Wes


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## tomahawk6 (24 Oct 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I'm getting tired of seeing "PC" used as if it's a dirty word.   PC has led to some unfortunate situations, which have their own handy labels - I'm thinking of reverse discrimination primarily.   But on the whole, if the quote civilized world unquote has become more tolerant and understanding, put me in the camp that thinks that's a good thing.
> 
> Second guessing troops in the field may or may not represent real hazards, but of course troops in the field also have a responsibility to carry out the intent - not just the commands - of their leadership.
> 
> Using a f'rinstance here, maybe a big one, but if you're busily and publicly desecrating enemy dead while someone else from your company is being taken prisoner elsewhere...



Its pretty plain that if a US soldier falls into the hands of the enemy a quick end is not in the cards. These are fanatics who dont care a wit about the Geneva Convention or anything else. Just look back on the atrocities meted out by the Taliban to their enemies. If they will skin alive a child than it would be real pleasure to inflict alot of pain on any captured US or allied soldier. They have descrated the bodies of fallen US military personnel in the past and I doubt anything will change. Perhaps Michael if you were one of their guests that sometime before the end you would have wished that you had saved yourself alot of pain and just killed yourself to avoid capture.


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## Brad Sallows (24 Oct 2005)

>Does this not put aside the fact that we're IN THEIR COUNTRY?

Nope. I'm not thinking narrowly as Canada-in-Afghanistan; I'm thinking of general cultural differences encountered across several nations around the world.  I've decided if there is to be any "submission", I'll select my own terms.


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## geo (24 Oct 2005)

Tomahawk...
The islamic "culture" is a strange thing to our western sensibilities.
The warrior in Jihad will set off a bomb next to a school of his & his neighbors children... and that's OK for him.

The interim Gov't, the US and all nations who contribute to the multinational force are saying that that is bad and should not be tolerated. We're taking the high ground telling the local population that they should look up to us... and our defenition of democracy....

So while our troops do good, some press "nit" and another psyop "wit" have screwed the poock for all of us.


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## tomahawk6 (25 Oct 2005)

Here is an article which is the best description of what happened in Afghanistan.

http://www.jasoncoleman.com/BlogArchives/2005/10/martinkus_dupon.html


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## geo (25 Oct 2005)

Still not 100% sure about converting the act into a Psyop oportunity BUT I am not there on the ground and don't know about the difficulty of getting Talibans & AQ to come out of hiding.

It is a wonder that Martinkus had his credentials accepted by the US Forces...uhhh... doesn't anyone check - esp if he is known for his bias?


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## Marauder (25 Oct 2005)

> Plt Comd's actions are being twisted into an Anti Taliban act...



Uhhh, I think the actions that led to those Talibunnies getting their asses capped could be considered "Anti-Taliban". Beyond that, when did being anti-Taliban become a negateive? Every last one of those fucks should be dug out of their holes, before being turned around, and having their holes filled back up with dead Talibunnies. The Taliban is the *ENEMY!!!!* HELLO, GOOD MORNING!

When the MSM gets video of a NATO mbr decapitiating an Afghani civ with a butter knife, hey, maybe we can debate the rightness/ wrongness of it. Until then, remember that 'mo'gas equals 'good'gas. Just remind the troops to stand back a bit. That second hand smoke will kill ya.


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## devil39 (25 Oct 2005)

I would think that this could be construed as an LOAC violation, however the excuse of hygiene is a reasonable excuse.  Probably could have moved them and covered them up with rocks though.

The psyops angle and the taunting is just plain stupid.  What do they not understand about the winning on the moral plane?  

Yet another reason for the locals, their relatives, clan, tribe, etc, to hate the "West" and join the other side.  The best thing to do would have been to make a demonstration of interring the dead with respect in accordance with their culture. 

My 2 cents.


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## Kat Stevens (26 Oct 2005)

...just like they do for our guys.


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## Britney Spears (26 Oct 2005)

I think  <a href=http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince19.htm>this</a> is what devil39 is trying to say.


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## Franko (26 Oct 2005)

I'll just chime in here for a quick pointer.   :

The bodies were facing west for a reason....in Afghanistan Mecca is in the west, southwest actually. I see Muslims praying in that direction all the time. So in that regard they were correct in doing so.

Cremation of the bodies is in accordance to the GC as stated above. Some of the Muslims I've talked to say that burning is cleasing the body as well when burial can't be readily done...point as they were on a mountain, IIRC.

The problem is the PsyOps guys did their job when a imbed was around...and everything got blown out of poportion.

Thank you media    :

Regards


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## geo (26 Oct 2005)

Hmmm.... things getting repetitive around here.... 
maybe about time for Admin to lock up this one.

Been a slice!


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## devil39 (26 Oct 2005)

Franko said:
			
		

> I'll just chime in here for a quick pointer.   :
> 
> The bodies were facing west for a reason....in Afghanistan Mecca is in the west, southwest actually. I see Muslims praying in that direction all the time. So in that regard they were correct in doing so.
> 
> ...




And I would say it was a stupid Psyops job.... 

I hope the average civilian reading this site doesn't think that the CF would condone taunting locals while burning bodies as an acceptable Psyops practice.  Despite the approval of the moderator.  I certainly wouldn't allow my troops to engage in such practice.  Counterproductive.


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## Acorn (28 Oct 2005)

I've thought a little about this, and I'm not ready to condemn the Psyops guys. Yes, it was a stupid psyop _from our western perspective_. Calling Taliban fighters "girly-men" isn't a bad idea though. They regard "us" as cowardly 'cause we go out in armoured vehicles, all tooled-up with body-armour and stuff. Courage in battle is very important to that culture, and to suggest that they are weak (targetted at the TB specifically) and cowardly (or "womanly" which is much the same in their minds) could draw them out for a fight they'll lose.

I would like to think the Psyops folks acted as part of a directed IO plan, based on good Int and cultural awareness. That they didn't account for a film crew and the inevitable Monday Morning QBs with their own biases, lattes and luxury of analysis time is a failure, but a small one.

Acorn


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## geo (28 Oct 2005)

Acorn,
won't dissagree with you but, while they may have had cultural awareness with respect to which buttons to push to get the Taliban / AQ 's goat... did they take into account the local native population?

did they care?


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## 1feral1 (28 Oct 2005)

At the end of the day, DON'T let the media go along with Psy-Ops boys. How can you fight a war (yes fight - KILL the EN etc) with the limp wristed left (SBS Channel 21) in tow.

I hope they have learned a lesson.

Gotta go, packing for AASAM, got in late last night (13 hrs by truck) after a final trip down there, and now we leave Mon am til 01 Dec.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Acorn (29 Oct 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> Acorn,
> won't dissagree with you but, while they may have had cultural awareness with respect to which buttons to push to get the Taliban / AQ 's goat... did they take into account the local native population?
> 
> did they care?



The TB are the SAME culture as the "local native population."


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## geo (29 Oct 2005)

Aye.... there's the rub!


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## Freight_Train (29 Oct 2005)

Reading about this story twigged my memory a bit.  In "The Hunt for Bin Laden:  Task Force Dagger" by Robin Moore he described a similar situation on page 101:
	"Visiting the battlefield shortly after, Special Forces Command Sergeant Major Ames asked TIGER 01 why some bodies were left to rot while others were covered in stones or buried within twenty-four hours, in accordance with Muslim practice.  The Triple Nickel's driver replied that the foreigners and AQ would be left to rot for a while as an insult."
I would expect that the folks on the ground did what they did for a reason and for us to internet speculate is somewhat foolish...


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## Franko (30 Oct 2005)

devil39 said:
			
		

> I hope the average civilian reading this site doesn't think that the CF would condone taunting locals while burning bodies as an acceptable Psyops practice.   Despite the approval of the moderator.



 :

Are you for real?
  
Where did I say that I approved? Where did I say that the CF would condone that action?

I gave my own assesment of the report from what I gathered from the sources avail over here, mind you we don't have local Canadian tv either....so that's pretty far and few between. There are all kinds of positive things happening over here that will never make it to the six o'clock news. The media primarily focuses on the negative.



> I certainly wouldn't allow my troops to engage in such practice.   Counterproductive.



No one would expect you to do so. If you did, you'd be up for courts martial.

Regards


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## armyintheafterlife (24 Nov 2005)

abimopectore said:
			
		

> Obviously blatant ignorance and lack of respect that of Geneva Conventions and that of a human body. All those psycho-op experts?
> disrespect for Islamic religious practices? how would anyone react to a foreign army killing the locals and making fun of their religion (even if one does not practice it?) If you do not win the hearts of the people you can forget about winning the war. Thank God for Canadian soldiers, but again, wars always attract criminal minds and in every crowd there will be one or two (like the ones who burned the bodies and
> enjoyed the whole spectacle. (yes, I have seen the footage on TV)​



So obviously you've never been around too awful many corpses rotting in the sun, eh.


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## geo (25 Nov 2005)

It's been said before;
dealing with corpses is one issue
using the "photo Oportunity" to intentionaly enrage people is another....


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## silentbutdeadly (25 Nov 2005)

Ok on this topic , i just talked to the soldier from the american unit that did that and it was not a tool! It was an issue about hygene. They secured the area after the fire fight and were told to hold the ground. They were there for as few days , so they had to get rid of the stink, so they burned them. He does admit , not the smartest idea, but for the welfare of his troops it had to be done.


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## geo (25 Nov 2005)

SBD... if you went to the trouble of reading the whole thread you'd find out that after the unit looked after the Hygene part - the Psyops types got their hands on the photos and film footage and did their little magic.... and resulted in unleashing a firestorm of hate worldwide for the casual disregard the US extended to the dead.

The fact that they were taliban has everything (and nothing) to do with it.

(once again -= please read)


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## silentbutdeadly (25 Nov 2005)

Sorry my bad!  :blotto:


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## FastEddy (26 Nov 2005)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> At the end of the day, DON'T let the media go along with Psy-Ops boys. How can you fight a war (yes fight - KILL the EN etc) with the limp wristed left (SBS Channel 21) in tow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Boy have you got that one right !, if you have A.. H....'s around taking pictures every time you go for a S..t, your bound to get your picture taken with your pants down around your ankles sooner or later.

If those media SOB's were so concerned and righteous, why didn't they volunteer to bury the dead TB.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Nov 2005)

The latest....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051126/ap_on_re_as/afghan_us_bodies_burned_1;_ylt=AuazeEDObJT61T_9s80k1fZsbEwB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

"The U.S. military on Saturday denied its troops committed any criminal wrongdoing in the burning of two Taliban rebels' bodies, claiming they did so for hygienic reasons, but said four soldiers face disciplinary action over the incident ....  The U.S.-led coalition's operational commander, Maj. Gen. Jason Kamiya, said two junior officers who ordered the bodies to be burned would be officially reprimanded for showing a lack of cultural and religious understanding, but said the men were unaware that what they were doing was wrong."


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## geo (26 Nov 2005)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> The latest....
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051126/ap_on_re_as/afghan_us_bodies_burned_1;_ylt=AuazeEDObJT61T_9s80k1fZsbEwB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
> 
> "The U.S. military on Saturday denied its troops committed any criminal wrongdoing in the burning of two Taliban rebels' bodies, claiming they did so for hygienic reasons, but said four soldiers face disciplinary action over the incident ....   The U.S.-led coalition's operational commander, Maj. Gen. Jason Kamiya, said two junior officers who ordered the bodies to be burned would be officially reprimanded for showing a lack of cultural and religious understanding, but said the men were unaware that what they were doing was wrong."


you forgot to mention the following...........
Kamiya also said two noncommissioned officers would be reprimanded for using loudspeakers to taunt Taliban rebels who were believed to still be lingering in a nearby village after a clash with the troops. The men also would face non-judicial punishments, which could include a loss of pay or demotion in rank.

which I would presume refers to the Psyop boys which are responsible for this PR mess.


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## silentbutdeadly (26 Nov 2005)

This brings me to a question then. On the BTE we had the Psyops guys with us because there going to TFA with us. They would say that we didn't employ them properly. After this event, i feel that we shouldn't bring them at all unless its a lighter( lack of a better word) op. Anyone want to help me out with this outlook, since i will be a Sect Comd working closer with them.


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## geo (26 Nov 2005)

SBD
Psyops can provide a whole range of services.

Psyops can be black or white .... and pretty much any shade of gray that falls inbetween.
Cdn doctrine dictates that our Psyops shall be "white", shall not twist the truth to suit our needs. We will provide the people in A'stan with the real information - not something that has been "adapted" by some spin doctor.
The US plays their Psyops game a little looser than ours.
Will see if I can track down a Ppt presentation the Psyops boys put together for us last spring - good read.


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## FastEddy (26 Nov 2005)

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> The latest....
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051126/ap_on_re_as/afghan_us_bodies_burned_1;_ylt=AuazeEDObJT61T_9s80k1fZsbEwB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
> 
> ...


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## geo (26 Nov 2005)

Fast Eddy, you too failed to mention/ quote the following:...........
Kamiya also said two noncommissioned officers would be reprimanded for using loudspeakers to taunt Taliban rebels who were believed to still be lingering in a nearby village after a clash with the troops. The men also would face non-judicial punishments, which could include a loss of pay or demotion in rank.

which I would presume refers to the Psyop boys which are responsible for this PR mess.


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## tomahawk6 (26 Nov 2005)

As the officer's are to receive a letter of reprimand I would expect the NCO's to get the same.


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## geo (26 Nov 2005)

The NCOs deserve to have the book thrown at them
then, they should be sent back to school to get their Sh#$ together


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## tomahawk6 (26 Nov 2005)

Their offense was more out of ignorance than malice. The bodies had been unburied for over 24 hours. The local village didnt want to bury them. The terrain was rocky so burning the bodies seemed the way to go.


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## geo (26 Nov 2005)

Tommy, this was discussed before, you should review the posting to refresh your memory. The Offiicers & troops burned the body for sanitary reasons....(nothing wrong) BUT then the Psyop types came around and twisted the whole scenario in order to twist the tail of the tiger... which had a net result of upsetting the locals...


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## FastEddy (27 Nov 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> Fast Eddy, you too failed to mention/ quote the following:...........
> Kamiya also said two noncommissioned officers would be reprimanded for using loudspeakers to taunt Taliban rebels who were believed to still be lingering in a nearby village after a clash with the troops. The men also would face non-judicial punishments, which could include a loss of pay or demotion in rank.
> 
> which I would presume refers to the Psyop boys which are responsible for this PR mess.




Whether they did or didn't, doesn't change my sentiments.

But you keep failing to mention if it wasn't for the f......g media pricks there wouldn't be a PR mess either.

As far as hopping they throw the book at these Soldiers, sounds like your a real charitable person.


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## geo (27 Nov 2005)

Charitable?
Oh yeah... why shouldn't I be?

with respect to the media... while I am not particularly a big fan of the media's being embeded within line units......... you have to be a total moron to try & pull the stunt they did ... knowing fully well that reporters were standing there taking notes, making their list and checking it twice............ how stupid can you be?

Also... would it have been any less correct or incorrect if the reporters hadn't of been there?  If the locals had kicked up a fuss for this insensitive act; they might have decided to throw their support to the Taliban or Osama for our trouble... nice, real nice!


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## FastEddy (27 Nov 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> Charitable?
> Oh yeah... why shouldn't I be?
> 
> with respect to the media... while I am not particularly a big fan of the media's being embeded within line units......... you have to be a total moron to try & pull the stunt they did ... knowing fully well that reporters were standing there taking notes, making their list and checking it twice............ how stupid can you be?
> ...


[/color

There seems to be a case for the incinerating of the two corpses and the locals relinquished any association  with regard to the rites or burial. Therefore if might be conclued that any Vocal Taunting would not incite the locals oneway or the other (other than direct insult to the Koran or Islam).

If the Psyop Team is a recognized and a functional Unit, therefore are they not performing their assigned duties in taking advantage of this opportunity Calling your Enemy Lily Livered, Girly like and Cowards is not insensitive but definitely insulting to a Soldiers Manhood etc. (which is exactly the effect desired). I imagine that if the hiding unit had been U.S Marines, PPCLI, RCR or R 22e R, the taunting enemy had better get out of there damn fast because our lads would have poured out of there like Mad Hornets. Sorry I regress, I'm confusing Soldiers with the Taliban.

The Insensitivity and Defilement fuss, was the results of the Media and a very pro Taliban and anti-American one at that. 

Regardless whether from Stupidity, Bad Judgement or plain old Bad Luck, these Fighting men do not deserve to be back stabbed with remarks like "I Hope They Get The Book Thrown at Them", especially from Serving or Ex Servicemen.


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## RangerRay (27 Nov 2005)

If I understand correctly, many of these fighters believe that they will go to Paradise to be services by 70-odd virgins if they die while fighting or bombing infidels.

If I also understand correctly, Muslims will not go to Paradise if their body is buried with any part of a pig.

If Taliban or Al Queada fighters knew that they would be buried wrapped in pig skin if they died fighting the infidel, would they be so keen to die and be refused entry to Paradise?

Methinks not...


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## FastEddy (27 Nov 2005)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> If I understand correctly, many of these fighters believe that they will go to Paradise to be services by 70-odd virgins if they die while fighting or bombing infidels.
> 
> If I also understand correctly, Muslims will not go to Paradise if their body is buried with any part of a pig.
> 
> ...




See!, you're never to old to learn something new. 

Hey RangerRay, ever think about joining your local Pysop's ;D.


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## tomahawk6 (27 Nov 2005)

The Brits used to employ that tactic in India and other localities they ran where muslim insurgents became a problem.


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## Kat Stevens (27 Nov 2005)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> If I understand correctly, many of these fighters believe that they will go to Paradise to be services by 70-odd virgins if they die while fighting or bombing infidels.
> 
> If I also understand correctly, Muslims will not go to Paradise if their body is buried with any part of a pig.
> 
> ...



Funny, I said the exact same thing, somewhere in the forums, a few months ago.  I think the problem with these rabid animals, is that they've shown they are more than willing to modify the requirements of their faith, as needed.


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## silentbutdeadly (27 Nov 2005)

They were burned for the welfare of there soldiers, so who gives a F**K if the media is there and if the media uses this as a tool to bring down the men, well stop taking the media with us! cut and dry and yes i know this is not going to happen, but i see this being a problem with my unit going over since Can PAO's fear the media in our country,, i will have one in my hip pocket everywhere i go!  :threat:


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## geo (27 Nov 2005)

SBD,
the media is not / should not be the problem.... you are painting them as being the source of the problem... and in this particulat care - the were not!
The infantry platoon did their job. pure and simple.
they had corpses - they asked the local village to haul the trash away and the locals deferred - not a problem.
The platoon commander made a commander made a command decision and chose to cremate the remains - not a problem.
The media filmed the event - not a problem
The Psyop boys took the photos and footage of the event and turned it into something that it wasn't - PROBLEM
The local population took offense - PROBLEM
The media boys were around and reported this twisting of the truth, it's intent and it's results - BIGGER PROBLEM.
The internationa population took offense - PROBLEM
No kidding.......

Cdn Psyops personnel do not work along the same doctrine as the US ones do.... I have met many and I do not believe they will / would stoop to this type of op.


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## FastEddy (28 Nov 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> SBD,
> the media is not / should not be the problem.... you are painting them as being the source of the problem... and in this particulat care - the were not!
> The infantry platoon did their job. pure and simple.
> they had corpses - they asked the local village to haul the trash away and the locals deferred - not a problem.
> ...




Sorry, I stand to be corrected on this one, I must of missed where the LOCAL residents protested or were out raged by the Pysop's antics, all the fuss of Locals and International came after the Media broke the storey ?.

Another interesting point, was the Taunting done in English or Arabic.

Cheers.


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## geo (28 Nov 2005)

Fasteddy,
Probably Pashtun.... locals aren't all that fluent


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