# RESISTANCE TO INTERROGATION INSTRUCTOR



## SHELLDRAKE!! (11 Feb 2005)

The recently proposed resistance to interrogation instructor course based on the UK training course (CANFORGEN 025/05) seems like an unusual step for the CF.Kinda refreshing to see that someone is actually putting thought into training again.


----------



## big bad john (11 Feb 2005)

Excellent course!!!!


----------



## Cloud Cover (11 Feb 2005)

So what are the [unclas] basics of such a course?


----------



## pbi (11 Feb 2005)

I am all for this kind of training. My impression is that we pay lip service (or no service at all...) to the whole business of being captured. This is strange, considering that the past decade has seen a number of Canadians captured or otherwise illegally detained in FRY, etc. As well, the current type of threat we seem to be facing makes hostage taking and torture far more likely than they have been in the past. IMHO this should be taught in a realistic, demanding manner and should be integrated into exercises.

Can anybody currently serving in a Regular Cbt A unit fill us in on the state of this training currently? I haven't seen it done for years.

Cheers


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!! (11 Feb 2005)

Volunteers are being requested to be screened for 40 positions to attend a one day assesment course from which 20 pers will be loaded on a four week RTI course.

 These 20 will provide summer training wherever dnd troops require training until a RTI school can be established.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (12 Feb 2005)

Must be MCpl or higher.  I do know that the guys that run the SERE school have to go to the Brits and Americans versions and go through all the training including the interrogation phase.


----------



## MG34 (12 Feb 2005)

Good training but hard on the body.It's about time this course was offered to the rest of the CF,as long as it is not watered down and pussified like most courses are now I'm all for it.


----------



## Glorified Ape (12 Feb 2005)

I saw that someone mentioned Mcpl or higher. Does that extend officers? Is this available to them or is it one of those (practically anyway) non-com only deals?


----------



## Infanteer (12 Feb 2005)

"MCpl or Higher" usually imples leadership qualification, so yes, Officers would qualify.  Remember, the course in discussion is a "RI" Instructor, as there is no point giving the course to those who are not qualified to teach other soldiers.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (12 Feb 2005)

Officers are welcome as well.  I think it asks for Captains or higher.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!! (12 Feb 2005)

Lt/Capt rank of any MOC, Mcpl and above from any MOC (being fully qualified in their MOC)


----------



## ArmyRick (13 Feb 2005)

Interesting.
I saw the CANFORGEN at work, it looks interesting.

I will inquire more about it.


----------



## scm77 (14 Feb 2005)

Look what is happening to the ADF regarding this kind of training.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12228433-2,00.html

Could definitely see people whining about it here.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2005)

Would it even matter (against GC) if you volunteer to go on course?


----------



## Spr.Earl (14 Feb 2005)

Post the Can For Gen. if it does not go against OpSec.
This sounds very interesting.
Is it all All in the C.F.?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2005)

I'll try to post it tomorrow if I can. Need the DIN I think.


----------



## Spr.Earl (14 Feb 2005)

I'm very interested.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2005)

One of the FEW times I wise I was a Jack.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (14 Feb 2005)

Well I checked the CANFORGENS and it isn't up anymore.


----------



## TheCheez (14 Feb 2005)

Here you go:

http://vcds.dwan.dnd.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2005/025-05_e.asp

REQUIREMENT FOR RESISTANCE TO INTERROGATION INSTRUCTORS
UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. B-GJ-005-110/FP-010 CF CODE OF CONDUCT AFTER CAPTURE 
B. HTTP://DCDS.MIL.CA/DGJFD/DPDT/PAGES/J7DOC_DOCLIST_E.ASP 



SITUATION. THE CF HAS A REQUIREMENT TO TRAIN A SMALL CADRE OF RESISTANCE TO INTERROGATION (R2I) INSTRUCTORS. THIS WILL FULFIL AN IMMEDIATE TRAINING SHORTFALL AND WILL ACT AS A STEPPING STONE TOWARDS A JOINT RESISTANCE TRAINING CADRE 


DESCRIPTION. R2I INSTRUCTORS PROVIDE CODE OF CONDUCT AFTER CAPTURE LEVEL C TRAINING, WHICH INCLUDES ACADEMIC INSTRUCTION AND PRACTICAL RESISTANCE TO INTERROGATION. SCENARIOS ARE DESIGNED TO EXPOSE STUDENTS TO THE VARIOUS EXPLOITATION METHODS THAT CAPTORS MAY EMPLOY AGAINST THEM, INCLUDING VARIOUS TYPES OF INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES. R2I INSTRUCTORS TYPICALLY HAVE SHORT BURSTS OF CONCENTRATED ACTIVITY, WHICH INVOLVE LONG HOURS AND A NON-TRADITIONAL WORK WEEK FORMAT. THEY MUST BE CAPABLE OF WORKING ALONE AS WELL AS IN SMALL TEAMS IN A CLOSE ENVIRONMENT. THEY MAY BE REQUIRED TO WORK IN THE FIELD OR ISOLATED STATIC LOCATIONS WITH MINIMAL COMFORT 


VOLUNTEERS. OFFICER AND NCM CANDIDATES FROM BOTH THE REGULAR AND RESERVE FORCE ARE REQUIRED. OFFICER VOLUNTEERS MUST BE CAPT/LT(N) OR ABOVE. NCM VOLUNTEERS MUST BE MCPL/MS OR ABOVE. THIS TRAINING IS OPEN TO ANY MOC. VOLUNTEERS WILL BE REQUIRED TO UNDERGO SELECTION AND IF SUCCESSFUL WILL BE MERIT LISTED FOR 20 PLACES ON A R2I INSTRUCTOR COURSE. THIS CADRE OF INSTRUCTORS WILL BE CAPABLE OF PROVIDING LEVEL A AND LEVEL B TRAINING WITHIN PARENT UNITS, ASSISTING WITH DCDS DIRECTED LEVEL C TRAINING EACH SUMMER. THIS REQUIREMENT WILL CONTINUE UNTIL A PERMANENT JOINT TRAINING FACILITY AND CADRE HAS BEEN STOOD UP 


PROCESS. VOLUNTEERS WILL BE REQUIRED TO FOLLOW A THREE-STEP PROCESS: 


INITIAL BASE/UNIT SCREENING OF APPLICANTS (SEE PARA 6); 


INDIVIDUAL SELECTION AT ONE OF THREE ONE-DAY R2I INSTRUCTOR ASSESSMENT CENTRES SCHEDULED BETWEEN 04-12 APR 05 AT CFB KINGSTON; AND, 


IF SELECTED ATTEND A FOUR WEEK RESISTANCE TO INTERROGATION INSTRUCTOR COURSE TO BE CONDUCTED 19 JUN TO 15 JUL 05 


PROFILE AND CRITERIA. R2I INSTRUCTION REQUIRES A UNIQUE MATURE INDIVIDUAL WITH A STRONG SENSE OF SELF DISCIPLINE. R2I INSTRUCTORS MUST BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN EMOTIONAL CONTROL AND RESTRAIN FROM INAPPROPRIATE ACTIONS WHEN IN A STRESSFUL ENVIRONMENT. THEY MUST ALSO BE ABLE TO ASSUME THE ROLE OF DIFFERENT PERSONNAS IN A CREDIBLE MANNER IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THE PRESCRIBED TRAINING OBJECTIVE. THESE INDIVIDUALS MUST BE CAPABLE OF PROVIDING A SAFE BUT REALISTIC TRAINING ENVIRONMENT FOR CF PERSONNEL UNDERGOING CONDUCT AFTER CAPTURE (LEVEL C) TRAINING. APPLICANTS MUST SATISFY, AS A MIN REQUIREMENT, THE FOL CRITERIA: 


RANK OF CAPT/LT(N) AND ABOVE OR MCPL/MS AND ABOVE; 


FULLY MOC QUALIFIED; 


HAVE SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED THE CF EXPRES TEST IN THE LAST YEAR OR BE INCENTIVE EXEMPT FROM TAKING THE EXPRES TEST; 


HAVE A LEVEL 2 SECURITY CLEARANCE, OR HAVE LEVEL 2 SECURITY CLEARANCE IN PROGRESS; 


MEET THE MINIMUM MEDICAL CATEGORY REQUIRED OF THEIR CURRENT OCCUPATION AND BE FULLY DEPLOYABLE; AND, 


VOLUNTEERS FOR R2I INSTRUCTORS MUST HOLD AN ENG CCC PROFILE FOR R2I INSTRUCTOR TRG AND EMPLOYMENT 


INITIAL BASE/ UNIT SCREENING. UNIT COMMANDING OFFICERS SHALL CONDUCT THE INITIAL SCREENING OF ANY INDIVIDUAL VOLUNTERING FOR EMPLOYMENT AS R2I INSTRUCTOR. IN ADDITION, THE EVALUATING SUPERVISOR, VIA UNIT COMMANDING OFFICERS, MUST COMPLETE A STANDARDIZED LETTER OF REFERENCE (SLOR) WHICH CAN BE DOWNLOADED FROM THE DHRRE WBSITE: HTTP://HR3.OTTAWA-HULL.MIL.CA/DHRRE/ THE SLOR LISTS SEVERAL ATTRIBUTES THAT ARE REQUIRED OF R2I INSTRUCTORS. FOLLOWING EACH ATTRIBUTE IS A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE ATTRIBUTE. THE EVALUATING SUPERVISOR MUST USE THEIR PROFESSIONAL JUDGEMENT IN DETERMINING THE EXTENT TO WHICH THE VOLUNTEER MEETS THE DESCRIPTION. 


UNIT TO FWD COMPLETED APPLICATION PACKAGE TO W/BPSO INCLUDING: 


SLOR; 


PSO REFERRAL FORM; 


PERS FILE; 


UER; AND, 


CONDUCT SHEET (IF APPLICABLE) 


SCREENING WILL BE CONDUCTED BY THE W/BPSO AND WILL INCLUDE A DIAGNOSTIC TEST TO ASSESS COGNITIVE ABILITY AS WELL AS A PSO INTERVIEW. W/BPSOS ARE ENCOURAGED TO COMPLETE THEIR ASSESSMENT ASAP 


NOMINATIONS. IT IS THE UNIT S RESPONSIBILITY TO FWD COMPLETED PAPERWORK TO DHRRE, USING THE FOLLOWING ADDRESS: RESISTANCE TO INTERROGATION INSTRUCTOR SELECTION, DHRRE, NDHQ, 101 COL BY DR, OTTAWA, ON, K1A 0K2. COMPLETED PAPERWORK MUST BE RECEIVED NO LATER THAN 01 APR 05 AND MUST INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING: 


PSO REFERAL FORM; 


CF 285 (PSO REPORT); 


SLOR; 


PERS FILE; 


UER; 


CONDUCT SHEET (IF APPLICABLE); AND, 


COPY OF MPRR. IT IS THE VOLUNTEER S RESPONSIBILITY TO ENSURE THAT THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THE MPRR IS CORRECT AND UP-TO-DATE 


SELECTION. FOLLOWING A FILE REVIEW, VOLUNTEERS WILL BE MERIT LISTED TO ATTEND THE R2I INSTRUCTOR ASSESSMENT CENTRES. THE TOP 40 CANDIDATES WILL RECEIVE JOINING INSTRUCTIONS FOR SELECTION 


SELECTION FOR EACH CANDIDATE WILL TAKE PLACE DURING A ONE DAY ASSESSMENT CENTRE TO BE HELD IN KINGSTON BETWEEN 04 AND 12 APR 05. UPON COMPLETION OF THE ASSESSMENT CENTRES CANDIDATES WILL AGAIN BE MERIT LISTED AND THE TOP 20 WILL BE PROVIDED JOINING INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE R2I INSTUCTOR COURSE, TO BE CONDUCTED 19 JUN TO 15 JUL 05 


QUESTIONS REGARDING R2I INSTRUCTOR SELECTION SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO DHRRE, 996-0925, OR DHRRE, NDHQ, 101 COL BY DR, OTTAWA, ON K1A 0K2


----------



## Acorn (17 Feb 2005)

Of course, we still aren't training Interrogators, who should be intimately involved in the R2I. But that's another issue, hopefully to be resolved soon.

Acorn


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (17 Feb 2005)

R2I is what exactly.


----------



## TheCheez (17 Feb 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> R2I is what exactly.



See thread title. RTI R2I same thing


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (17 Feb 2005)

Roger


----------



## 043 (18 Feb 2005)

Should be a good go! Put my name in today actually. I'll keep you all posted!


----------



## CrimsonSeil (20 Feb 2005)

Let me get this right. This is a simulation of being a prisoner? You get interrogated, stressed, weakened, yelled at. Seems pretty cool. ;D


----------



## TheCheez (21 Feb 2005)

The rumblings I've heard revolve around RTI being added to the advanced escape and evasion course some pilots need to go on.

Probably one of those things that would be a great experience in hindsight but not so much while you're doing it.


----------



## Dirt Digger (29 Mar 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> Of course, we still aren't training Interrogators, who should be intimately involved in the R2I. But that's another issue, hopefully to be resolved soon.
> 
> Acorn



Actually, having people trained in R2I and interrogation mixing is a very bad idea.

An R2I instructor is trained to work with students using techinques that are not sanctioned by the Geneva Conventions.  Using a person trained for R2I vs an actual prisoner runs the risk of the instructor using unsanctioned techniques.


----------



## Acorn (29 Mar 2005)

By not training interrogators at all we are running the risk. The reason trained interrogators should be involved in the R2I training is because they know the boundaries. If all we train is R2I instructors we run the risk of using them as interrogators in time of need, and they haven't been trained within our legal system.

Mixing the two is no more a problem than using well-trained combat troops in a peacekeeping role.

Acorn


----------



## from darkness lite (29 Mar 2005)

"A critical criterion is that they be able to draw the line between role-play in training and actual violence."

So what are you saying by this statement???  Those of us that are trained (when we were allowed to be trained) do not know our boundaries???  Who better to conduct an interrogation than a trained interrogator??  As for role-playing and violence, firstly I know what I'm allowed to do, and violence is NOT one of our techniques (it is illegal!!!).  When we were allowed to train, all interogations were video-taped and closely monitored.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that because the press is reporting supposed violations by US interogators that they are following our SOPs!  As for violations in the 90's involving Cdns, it was not Int interogators that were involved!!  One or two "lone cowboys" from other MOC's were the culprits.

Bottom-line, we know the difference!!!  And as any interogator will tell you, you'll get no, or useless, info from a beaten prisoner!!  Human-nature is to resist when under that kind of duress, or they'll say whatever they think you want to hear.

Cheers


----------



## Acorn (29 Mar 2005)

Before we get into a urination contest, let me try to be more clear:

At the moment (and for some years now) we have not trained interrogators. The result is that we have less than 20 qualified in the CF. While it is good that R2I instructors will be trained as to where to draw the line, they will not be trained interrogators. I am concerned with the possibility of them being used as such "in a pinch" due to the lack of interrogators in the CF.  I think that, perhaps, goes to what Dirt Digger may have been implying.

I believe trained interrogators can conduct R2I training with little additional training. An R2I instructor is not likely to be able to do the reverse. In addition, I think people should be careful about assuming what techniques R2I instructors will be permitted to use.

Acorn


----------



## Armageddon (29 Mar 2005)

I don't want to assume what techniques they would be allowed to use; however, I would hope that they are not going to teach you how to resist just the "legal" ways of interrogation as it would be highly likely that those are not the only ones that we need to worry about.  I think that if they are going to be teaching the course then they should look at any method that could be employed against us.  Just because we don't/won't use those methods doesn't mean that they won't be used against us.


----------



## from darkness lite (29 Mar 2005)

Intelligere:  If I misinterpreted your meaning I apologize.

However I have been on an Interrogation exercise or two in the UK (they are quite good believe me), and all/most RTI trg is conducted by trained interrogators.  As ACORN stated, it is easier for an interogator to "flex" himself into a bad-guy mode (we cover those techniques on courses, as a "what to expect" from a possible enemy), than it would be for a RTI instructor to conduct an interrogation for real, which is what ACORN is suggesting could happen (as trained interogator retire, and we lose the skill-set, the potential to turn to RTI instructor is a real possibility).  

RTI trg would be a good way to conduct a final PO for trained interogators (such as the Brits do with their graduates who try to "break" SAS/conduct after capture candiates).  If violence is to be included, role-players could fill that function

cheers


----------



## Dirt Digger (7 Apr 2005)

Messages were cut today for the next stage in the selection process...


----------



## icatq (14 Apr 2005)

There is a bit of dis-information above. R2I instructors go through a much longer course than interrogators. As a general rule the increasing level of skill and difficulty is: tactical questioning -   interrogation - R2I Instructor. Being qualified in all three I can categorically state that R2I Instructor is the hardest.
However, the reason that the R2I instructor course is longer is correctly stated above. Because they go beyond LOAC & GC's (in order to portray the opposition) they have to be more carefully screened. They must also be capable of a much wider repertoire than an Interrogator. I have seen quite a few interrogators turn up to an R2I exercise and find it very difficult. That being said, as mentioned before, the only way an interrogator can practice is on a R2I exercise.
The cross-pollination of interrogators and R2I instructors is a good thing. One brings the critical hard-core int perspective and the other (generally - but there will always be exceptions) brings a stronger communication set. The other key thing an interrogator should have is a strong linguistic capability which an R2I instructor does not need. 
Using R2I Instructors as interrogators is *not* a bad thing. It is a question of ROE's. Much like a private with Simunition in Petawawa on one ex will shoot anything in the wrong uniform and in Bosnia is under much more restrictive ROE. An interrogator (pure or R2I qualified) works under LOAC and GC on the opposition and under CF CAC doctrine on an R2I Ex. If he or she doesn't get that   a.they are too stupid to be an interrogator and b. charge them.
I look forward to more discussion on this topic.


----------



## KevinB (14 Apr 2005)

I know this is not specific to the RTII course issues - but what happened to the idea that in '06 conventional troops deploying would have had to taken RTI training?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (14 Apr 2005)

Haven't you heard.  The gov't will never put us in harms way.


----------



## Acorn (15 Apr 2005)

icatq,

When did you do your Interrogator course? (Approximate, we don't want to "out" you, since you'd be one of the 10-12 qualified interrogators left in the CF - if you're still in). Also, what form of R2II did you take, and approximately when?

Acorn


----------



## 043 (18 Jan 2006)

WHat's the 2 day pre screening like?


----------



## GunfighterSB (18 Jan 2006)

Will this course help us in resisting the Pointed Queries of our wives/girlfriends/boyfriends/police :-X as well as keep our mouths shut when captured?


----------



## George Wallace (18 Jan 2006)

In that case, it should be a required course for all the Moderators and Staff of the site.   ;D


----------



## Synthos (18 Jan 2006)

GunfighterSB said:
			
		

> Will this course help us in resisting the Pointed Queries of our wives/girlfriends/boyfriends/police :-X as well as keep our mouths shut when captured?



I don't know about police, but I don't know if I could resist sex being withheld!


----------



## ark (18 Feb 2006)

Sorry for the monster bump but I would like to know if anyone here has done this course or at least could provide some additional info.
I am especially interested in the theoretical vs practical ratio (% of each).


----------



## icatq (23 Feb 2006)

Out of the 5 weeks about 1 1/2 weeks are academic .... all the rest is hands on.


----------



## FMRWO (28 Apr 2006)

My only experience on the subject is an Ex during which we were captured. Captivity proved uncomfortable but the interrogation by real police detectives was scary. The strategies & tactics they used were overwhelming for most of us (even though we were not physicaly touched). The psychological games are *very* powerful. I would be fascinated being on such a course.

As soldiers, we all have basic information on resisting interrogation, but it does nothing to prepare you for the real thing. This training is needed.

_"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated."_  ;D


----------



## Centurian1985 (28 Apr 2006)

I unfortunately did not get the certification because the course was cancelled, but I did get training on interrogation from those who were certified.  There was then (and still is) a great debate over who should be allowed to be trained as interrogators.  JAG offices get in a panic whenever this issue comes up due to legal interpretations that if you are trained as intelligence, or MP, you are not allowed to do training for R2I, nor to instruct in because you will be 'tainted'.  However, there is still a demand for combat arms and air crews to be trained in this area in case they get captured. 

(Dont blame me, I didnt make this up!; It makes as much sense as saying that if a lawyer ever defended a crminal in court they should no longer be allowed to be a prosecutor because they are 'tainted'; or like a soldier being told they cant work on humanitarian aid missions because they've been trained to shoot people.)

On the reverse side, the argument goes that you can train front line soldiers to do interrogation, but cannot allow them to do so because they belong to units that may have encountered casualties or deaths due to contact with the enemy; the interrogators within the unit that sustained losses would lose their 'distance' (emotional detachment), which in turn reduces their ability to remain focused and unemotional during an interrogation of persons captured during said engagements.  Further, said front-line interrogators may become casualties themselves or would have to be pulled off the front lines to conduct the interrogations. 

Its a nasty catch-22.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Apr 2006)

RESISTANCE TO INTERROGATION INSTRUCTOR

So is this the army’s idea of a Diversity and harassment awareness councillor?   ;D


----------



## Danjanou (28 Apr 2006)

I dunno. Seems to me any guy been married more than two years is an SME in resistance to interrogation and therefore qualified to teach to the single troopies. ;D


----------



## zipperhead_cop (28 Apr 2006)

Is this strictly for Reg force or is this something a reserve officer could get?  Cripes knows I take a lot of crap as it is, all that crap eating may as well be put to good use.  
And I "promise" not to use it in civvie life  :evil:


----------



## Centurian1985 (28 Apr 2006)

Given the number of reserve members working overseas, this course (if successfully implemented) should be open to reserve memebrs for the same reasons that HUMINT is open to them. In fact, many of the standards used in Canada's HUMINT program are transferable over to the selection of Instructors for an Interrogators course.    :blotto:

Of note, when a new subject matter like this gets popular, the higher ups do not call in the experienced subject matter experts, who tend to be Senior NCO's.  They train a few Captains or Majors in the program and put them in charge without involving any previous SME's.  Then the new officers act as 'experts' to start running the program.  Of course, because they have limited experience, they end making a lot of the old mistakes which they would not be making if they had called in the experts in the first place.  (Yes, I've seen this happen before,with three different SME areas in use today).  ^-^


----------



## ArmyRick (29 Apr 2006)

"Of note, when a new subject matter like this gets popular, the higher ups do not call in the experienced subject matter experts, who tend to be Senior NCO's.  They train a few Captains or Majors in the program and put them in charge without involving any previous SME's.  Then the new officers act as 'experts' to start running the program.  Of course, because they have limited experience, they end making a lot of the old mistakes which they would not be making if they had called in the experts in the first place. "

Very true of the CF


----------



## icatq (4 May 2006)

I guess I need to clarify some things.

It is open to reg force and reserves and was advertised as such in a CANFORGEN. There are 20 instructors currently in the CF. .... in terms of SME's / NCO's / Officers ... we work on a first name basis like source handlers (please don't use the generic term HUMINT) ... so the 'experts' running the program are there because they are experts - it is not based on rank. 

Married guys and gals find it very useful as a take home skill, however taking some of the aggressive conversational skills home can be a 'night on the couch plan'.

We also now teach Prisoner Handling and Tactical Questioning in the CF so we have dealt with Centurion 1985's issues. It was designed for front line troops. I have so far taught 40 memebers of the CF. We only have 14 Interrogators left in the CF ..... next year I'll fix that too.


----------

