# Battle Fitness: Does the BFT really prepare us for battle?



## daftandbarmy (31 Mar 2008)

I'm just wondering what people think we *should  * have as our test of battle fitness? Is the current test an adequate preparation for what is required in battle these days, especially for combat arms troops? If not, what do you think we should do as our test of battle fitness?

Thanks,

D&B


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## geo (31 Mar 2008)

Heh.... everyone has an opinion.

All in all, the question is - what are we trying to prove each time we do the BFT?
Is this a basic once a year thing to dag green or is it indicative that you are good to go?

The BFT is a building block - if you can't do that, then you're wasting everyone's time & holding your section back.

The Fireman's carry is going / should be going, cause there are more people injured (being carried AND doing the carrying) doing that one thing than anywhere else in the BFT... (anyone hear anything about the replacement "drag")


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## Gunner98 (31 Mar 2008)

IMHO, the BFT is certainly the *minimum * fitness standard for all, but each Branch and MOC needs to set their own deployment selection standard, then the TF Comd should establish, and have CLS bless, a deployment fitness regime leading to his/her deployment standard.


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## X-mo-1979 (31 Mar 2008)

Fitness is a personal thing I guess.The BFT proves a person can walk 13 km with a light load on their back.

Does it prepare us for battle?Hell no!Not everyone in the army needs to walk 13 km and carry a man 100m either.
However to implement ANYTHING in this army takes years,money,studies that in the end produces another test that someone
will find a fault in.

Getting rid of the firemans carry sounds great now...give it two years and there will be people on here talking about the good old day's and how better the firemans carry was.Again it's all personal.

I would love to see thing's more challenging. 2 CMBG has been doing more stuff than the last time I was posted here.It use to be the normal 5 km slow run with the base CO,now it's morphed into a 26km forced march in TV with weapons,10 round grouping and a written test at the end.It was all kinds of ****** up,but at least the higher esch is trying...which is a vast improvement than a few years ago.

I personally see the cooper's test as a good battle fitness test,however as I said PT being a personal thing someone will always disagree.

My grand children will most likely be doing the BFT.It's easy to administer,plan for,and gets people the check in the box...which I noticed is getting really big nowadays.


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## fletchsd (1 Apr 2008)

When it comes to assessing the fitness standards for battle, the BFT does a better job than the beep test at least.  Remember that along with the fireman's carry, we now have to do the trench dig as well as the ammo crate lift to the tailgate of an ML.  I think these together are a very effective test.
In order to improve it further, I would recommend a full battle load with body armor (plates included), and the normal ruck sack load.
All of the above is an effective minimum standard for battle,  IMHO.


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## medaid (1 Apr 2008)

Way better then the MSR IMO...


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## PMedMoe (1 Apr 2008)

fletchsd said:
			
		

> as well as the ammo crate lift to the tailgate of an ML.



I thought the crate lift got dropped from the BFT.  ???



			
				fletchsd said:
			
		

> I would recommend a full battle load with body armor (plates included), *and* the normal ruck sack load.



Then I would fail every time.  I probably couldn't even stand up with all that on!  
My suggestion would be to drop the ruck and carry only essentials (e.g. battle load).  Also, IMHO, it should go by kit list and not weight.


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## dangerboy (1 Apr 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> My suggestion would be to drop the ruck and carry only essentials (e.g. battle load).  Also, IMHO, it should go by kit list and not weight.


The problem with the kit list is once you are overseas, you will not be following it.  You will be carrying water, food ammo and consumable supplies such as batteries.  The kit list has all sorts of stuff which you ditch to make room for the essentials.  It also doesn't make provisions for your job ie Pl signaler has the radio in his ruck, C6 gunner extra belts and the poor medic their jump bag.  No two people will have a ruck that weighs the same, if you go by weight it is somewhat standardised.  If that makes any sense.


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## X-mo-1979 (1 Apr 2008)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> The problem with the kit list is once you are overseas, you will not be following it.  You will be carrying water, food ammo and consumable supplies such as batteries.  The kit list has all sorts of stuff which you ditch to make room for the essentials.  It also doesn't make provisions for your job ie Pl signaler has the radio in his ruck, C6 gunner extra belts and the poor medic their jump bag.  No two people will have a ruck that weighs the same, if you go by weight it is somewhat standardised.  If that makes any sense.



The other problem is my trade do not even bring a rucksack with us.So really doing a BFT does nothing for battle fitness for me.

It's the troop NCM's who should be driving their troop's to be battle ready.NCO' and officer's ensuring the time to do so.

Battle fitness can mean many things,and it's up to the individual troop's sections to push their troops to a high level of fitness to ensure battle fitness success.


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## Gunner98 (1 Apr 2008)

fletchsd,

Have you actually participated in a BFT that did all 3 - fireman's carry, trench dig and ammo box toss? I know I haven't yet?


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## geo (1 Apr 2008)

It's the troop NCM who should be driving their troops to be battle ready - having been provided with adequate time to do so.

That having been said, it IS necessary to validate that the training has met the expectations of the CLS.  Now, given the variety of trades employed by Land forces - it is necessary to provide a general all round base standard for everyone... Does an Infantryman or Sapper need to meet a much higher level of fitness - so as to meet the realities of combat in theatre?  You betcha.


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## fletchsd (1 Apr 2008)

> fletchsd,
> 
> Have you actually participated in a BFT that did all 3 - fireman's carry, trench dig and ammo box toss? I know I haven't yet?



Yes, we did it twice in Meaford when this first came out.  Near the obstacle course at the parking lot they have the large sandbox containers full of gravel which is what you do the trench dig in, and we  just brought the MLVW over for the ammo crate lift.
I think it is correct that the ammo crate lift is gone now though.  Quite a few injuries were occurring because of improper lifting technique, but I still believe it is relevant and should be done.
As for doing the march with full battle load and ruck, 


> Then I would fail every time.  I probably couldn't even stand up with all that on!
> My suggestion would be to drop the ruck and carry only essentials (e.g. battle load).  Also, IMHO, it should go by kit list and not weight.


I totally agree that it would be difficult in the time alloted, but perhaps an increase in time, or as you say, go with only a full battle load. But I think it should still have to have a minimum weight.


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## geo (1 Apr 2008)

I believe the crate lift was removed from the BFT because of the problems arrising from having people who are 6ft tall alongside people who are  +/- 5ft nothing.  The 6ft fella could get a good handhold on the crate.... the little guy/gal didn,t have it too easy.... leading to injuries


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## OldSolduer (1 Apr 2008)

Does any of this stuff truly prepare us for battle? The only thing that will prepare us is training under realistic conditions. If that necessitates us carrying heavier rucksacks, with longer time limits, so be it. 
Instead of the ammo lift, how about a shoot to confirm zero and demostrate the ability to group within the standard set for your trade? This would be done post-march of course.....


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## geo (1 Apr 2008)

Ummm... you thinking of the 2 x 10 Miles with a range qualification at the end of the 2nd shoot?

With respect to the question "Does any of this stuff truly prepare us for battle? "  No of course not.  Nothing really and truly prepares you for battle.  Any and all training needed to prepare the troops will be gradual and designed to bring everyone up over a period of time.

I remember times when you'd get a newly minted Lt showing up at the unit - straight off his phase training at CTC.  1st thing he'd do ( or try to anyway) was to lead a PT session and "run everyone into the ground"... As a young fella with all his knees intact and probably in the best shape of his life, he'd relish his ablilty to run the troops into the ground to show himself superior to the troops...


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## fletchsd (1 Apr 2008)

> Does any of this stuff truly prepare us for battle?


Back to the original question, its not designed to train us for battle.  I still think it is a good test of Battle Fitness. Suggesting it is not adequate to prepare us for battle is suggesting you want it to encompass trade specific skills as well.  That is what the rest of our training does which is tested through IBTS and other means.
Once my troops meet this minimum standard of the BFT, I know they are fit enough to continue with the challenging training that tests their preparedness for battle.
As, OldSolduer suggests  I think that a shoot after the march is excellent.  Does anyone else remember completing a "march and shoot" like this?  We haven't done one in years now, but interest level was always very high in these types of activities and gave the troops something more to look forward to at the end of the BFT instead of just foot inspection.  Including it as part of the BFT would make the logistics of it difficult though.


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## OldSolduer (1 Apr 2008)

I would stick with the 13 km force march, done as an individual.
Kit carried:
Helmet
Personal Weapon (C7)
Front line ammo load (Simulated weight including grenades weight)
Tac Vest (Issued) & your Flak vest (if that is what its called)
Minimum 2 liters water
Rucksack, containing whatever it is that needs to be carried

I really don't know what the total weight of all the kit above is or what weight to carry. Does 80 lbs seem reasonable?
How about a section or platoon march and shoot? Make it a competition. BUT...don't let some one come in under a certain time. I've seen these before and if you don't harness the 22 year old Lt attempting to be the next CDS, he'll only hurt good soldiers.

Geo, I remember officers like that and you didn't ahve to be a brand new Lt either....I've seen Majors and LCols do the same thing, and then tell the 40 year old cpls that they are slugs.


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## rmc_wannabe (1 Apr 2008)

Everyone has their own idea of what Battle Fitness is because, lets face it, everyone has a different definition of "battle" for their trade. 

Does rucking a retarded amount of kms with battle load and plates then carrying a guy prove that a Sup Tech is any better at deadlifting boxes of heavy items? Does a trench dig mean a Sig Op will be any faster deploying the mast, or be better at carrying a Server Box? Not necessarily.

The BFT is all relative to what you do. There will always be bitching that its too easy or too hard; but as it stands its a good, basic reflection of your general fitness as a soldier. Infanteers, Sappers, and Trooper have a higher requirement than some of the other trades, but for those other trades there is a minimum level required. The BFT , IMO fulfills that . Your *true* Battle Fitness is your ability to perform your job as part of the battle, IMHO. That's different across the board, and that falls upon the lower level management in the units to keep on top of that.

Regardless, I kinda do like the nice walk with my comrades ... 8)

As for a march and shoot,  correct me if I'm wrong, don't most units do that anywaysas part od work up? Also, if we add a shoot to the BFT, do we get rid of PWT 1-3? I know a lot of time is spent on PWT, and to tack that on the end of a march would be a lot less enjoyable than the gala affair it sounds like. Am I wrong ???


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## Gunner98 (1 Apr 2008)

fletchsd said:
			
		

> Yes, we did it twice in Meaford when this first came out.  Near the obstacle course at the parking lot they have the large sandbox containers full of gravel which is what you do the trench dig in, and we  just brought the MLVW over for the ammo crate lift.
> I think it is correct that the ammo crate lift is gone now though.



Congrats - lots of Bases have the pea gravel coffins (which I have used).  But I am unclear as to what it proves - digging a shell scrape in gravel in 6 minutes.  As for the ammo box lift - 48 boxes in 5 minutes.  These tasks are an annoyance, harmful if done incorrectly and IMHO do not really meet the intention as stated in AFS Manual, "designed to ensure that you are capable of enduring the rigours of operations and, if necessary, combat."  Are we tossing ammo boxes rather than grenades at the enemy?  Much like the 2hr 26min and 20 secs - why 26 mins 20 seconds - why not 30 minutes?  Why 13 kms, other than we used to do 10 miles, but why was it 10 miles?


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## OldSolduer (1 Apr 2008)

A shoot after the march would not be a PWT. It would simply confirm the zero of the weapon and that the soldier can group 5 shots according to CFOSP. I do beleive the standard is still 100mm group size while firing from 100 meters.


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## rmc_wannabe (1 Apr 2008)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> A shoot after the march would not be a PWT. It would simply confirm the zero of the weapon and that the soldier can group 5 shots according to CFOSP. I do beleive the standard is still 100mm group size while firing from 100 meters.



Seen, that makes more sense to me


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## Fusaki (1 Apr 2008)

I like the BFT for use as the lowest common denominator for fitness in army units.  Every person and every trade should qualify on it at least once a year.

Personally, I've always found the fireman's carry a little silly.  It has always seemed that if you can march 13kms with a 45lb ruck, then carrying someone of equal weight for 100m should be no problem at all.  I've never felt challenged by it, anyways.

The actual 13km march portion on the other hand, provides a baseline standard of fitness that EVERYONE should be able to do on any given day.

Combat arms units need to adopt a tougher standard then the rest of the army and therefore the standard BFT is not sufficient for establishing a minimum level of fitness.  Its not uncommon for guys to carry and fight with 70-90lbs in their FFO alone under the 60 degree kandahar heat. IMHO this justifies an increase of the current 45lb BFT weight to the adoption of the 77lb CSOR BFT weight for ALL combat arms pers.

These combat arms BFTs should also be conducted at least twice a year, but more preferably 3-5 times a year and combined with regular ruck marches to avoid injuries.  Conduct the BFT early on a friday morning, then when the troops are done cut them loose for the weekend.  Let guys talk and shoot the crap while they march, and allow them to adopt a looser formation then the standard "two ranks facing that way".  BFTs are just as much mental as physical and small changes like these can make a big difference.

Crossfit and ruck marches are the key components of modern battle fitness. Set the bar high.

My .02


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## X-mo-1979 (1 Apr 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> Combat arms units need to adopt a tougher standard then the rest of the army and therefore the standard BFT is not sufficient for establishing a minimum level of fitness.  Its not uncommon for guys to carry and fight with 70-90lbs in their FFO alone under the 60 degree kandahar heat. IMHO this justifies an increase of the current 45lb BFT weight to the adoption of the 77lb CSOR BFT weight for ALL combat arms pers.
> 
> Crossfit and ruck marches are the key components of modern battle fitness. Set the bar high.



Scratch out combat trades and insert infantry.I see no purpose in me humping a 77lb ruck.It serves NO purpose in my trade.Peroid.

However I do agree with crossfit with endurance training added .I did nothing but crossfit for about 3 month's and my endurance suffered.Now I mix the both with weight training.

However the BFT show's who should not be in the army,those who don't make it.And as for the 77 lb rucksack,I aint that hard...you guys can have it.Not that I couldnt do it,I just do not see the point in rucksack march's for PT.


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## apple (2 Apr 2008)

i know in my unit they told us the have all our gear add up to 55 lbs, which is light, we don't do the digging part because we don't have anywhere to do it, i myself just did the BFT about a week ago and i have never herd of an ammo can toss or whatever it's called.


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## blacktriangle (2 Apr 2008)

Let the infantry do the 13km march leading into section attacks or urban ops training for the next several hours.

Gunners 13km to a range and practice live fire with the guns

Engineers 13km to build a bridge or blow one up

Armoured 13km followed by BBQ.

Who's with me?


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## X-mo-1979 (2 Apr 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Let the infantry do the 13km march leading into section attacks or urban ops training for the next several hours.
> 
> Gunners 13km to a range and practice live fire with the guns
> 
> ...



Next time your higher call's us to a firebase,I'll be sure to tell them we'll be there after our hotdogs.

How about go to a tank range (a decent one) all day as a loader.I know my loader was huffing and puffing.


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## RTaylor (2 Apr 2008)

I think the BFT weeds out people and gets them to a starting point that they should be at for fitness.

There's no real training that can prepare you for combat, every person Ive talked to that's been under fire has told me that. Adrenaline, fear, anger, excitement and so on pumps through you so you don't know that you even have a pack on your back. I've even talked to a few fellas that were in Vietnam and some others in the conflicts in Africa. BFT won't prepare you for shitting your pants. 

And what if your in a jungle? Or desert? Or northern climate? Or mountains?

What BFT does is give you the basic tools to cope and a pathway to higher learning. A healthy body usually leads to a healthy mind, clearer thinking and healing faster. Anyone can be in a combat situation, you don't need to be in shape to do that, but you do need to be in shape to get to the area, support yourself and your comrades, and if need be to haul ass out of the situation. 

I think that you should change the title to "Does the BFT prepare us for the physical rigors of a combat situation?"


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## X-mo-1979 (2 Apr 2008)

RTaylor said:
			
		

> What BFT does is give you the basic tools to cope and a pathway to higher learning. A healthy body usually leads to a healthy mind, clearer thinking and healing faster.



I agree with a healthy mind and healthy body is key.However are you saying there is a nexus between the BFT and fitness? I do not see it.


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## RTaylor (2 Apr 2008)

Not a nexus, but a correlation.

If you can do the BFT you are therefore reasonably fit, this usually makes people feel better about themselves and their body, which is a sorely missing ideal these days. Also, it helps weed out the lazy slack asses.

Im not sure how it's run these days though and from what I understand differs between units.


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## blacktriangle (2 Apr 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Next time your higher call's us to a firebase,I'll be sure to tell them we'll be there after our hotdogs.
> 
> How about go to a tank range (a decent one) all day as a loader.I know my loader was huffing and puffing.



I know, I kid. I hate being in the armd reserves, but respect the stuff the regs do on a daily basis. 

My only point was that the 13km shouldn't be the main feature, it should be the leadup to the actual main training event, as only then will it be an indicator of how well we perform, at least in my opinion. I know after the BFT's I've seen, most people are allowed to chill out, eat, and take care of their feet...then call it a day. At least in the reserves...

BFT doesnt seem to indicate total fitness though, I know some fat people that can do the BFT and barely pass, but could not do any pushups or run 2.4km without dying. Is that fitness?


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## RTaylor (2 Apr 2008)

To be honest Popn, are you going to be crackin off situps and pushups in combat to strike fear into the hearts of enemies, or are you going to be walking, and walking and walking and walking and walking and walking and walking? A good war is a boring war, and the 13KM stroll is a decent indication of physical fitness. 

A lot of the folks that I know have told me that walking is whats mainly done, running isn't the norm unless it's a short ass haulin in a bad situation, and the BFT reflects this. Don't forget that if you are being sent overseas to a conflict you go through several months of training that's apt to get anyone back into reasonable shape.

Most of the Combat Arms trades will be able to do the BFT and laugh at it because it's a great time for a stroll. It's the other branches that may have a few issues and it weeds these folks out. You're not the only one who's seen severely overweight people, I've noticed several in Logistics / Cooks / Supply Tech and a few AF techies that probably have their stretch marks classified as refridgerator racing stripes (thats mine don't steal it, when I get back to Basic I dont want it toss in my face  :blotto: )

BTW Popn...if I poke you in the stomach do you go "Hmm Hmmm!" ?  ;D


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## Fusaki (2 Apr 2008)

> There's no real training that can prepare you for combat, every person Ive talked to that's been under fire has told me that. Adrenaline, fear, anger, excitement and so on pumps through you so you don't know that you even have a pack on your back. I've even talked to a few fellas that were in Vietnam and some others in the conflicts in Africa. BFT won't prepare you for ******** your pants.



I disagree.

First off, just because someone has been in combat does not make them the SME on anything.  I know plenty of guys who were dumb before they got into a TIC, and have continued to be dumb long after.  I also know the kind of guys who say things like "It was crazy man! Nothing could prepare you for it! When the adrenaline hits you just move like your ass is on fire anyways, so it's bullshit that this young Lt cocking us on this ruck march! I know 'cause I was there man, right in the shit! And you won't be able to argue with me untill you were there too!"

I call bullshit.  While it's obvious that adrenaline gives a physical boost and blocks out pain, it's also obvious that an adrenaline boosted fit guy is going to move faster then an adrenaline boosted fat guy. No form of PT is going to induce the same response in the sympathetic nervous system that combat will.  Running hard might get your heart rate up, but it can't replicated adrenaline, tunnel vision/hyperclarity, muffled/amplified noises, time distortion, and all the other typical perceptual distortions combat can trigger in the human mind.  But good PT will train the body to react with more efficiency, helping to offset some of the mental effects of combat. You'll shoot straighter, make it through the grape field faster, and over the mud wall with minimal time exposed to the enemy.

Fitness also increases your tolerence to stress. I'd quote On Combat here, but the book is at work. Basically, stress is like water in a bathtub. Some things in your life drip water into it slowly, some critical events can dump buckets in at once. When it overflows you have a combat stress reaction, so you need to take the time to relax and drain it out before the situation gets that serious. Physical fitness makes the bathtub bigger. Among other things, it increases your confidance and sense of self worth, helping your to deal with the stresses of a combat environment.  PT doesn't just help you get to the fight. It helps you fight the fight, and it helps you live with the fight after the fact.

The BFT (and being fit) alone does not prepare anyone for battle.  It needs to be combined with the proper mental conditioning, aggressive mindset, maturity, and skills training. These elements re-enforce each other and neglect of one leads to weakness in the others.


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## X-mo-1979 (2 Apr 2008)

RTaylor said:
			
		

> Don't forget that if you are being sent overseas to a conflict you go through several months of training that's apt to get anyone back into reasonable shape.



Really?Since I started work up training I can count on my hand's how many times our unit has had PT.Up until last week I've done PT maybe 5-6 times.
I do it 2 hr's a day.Not on government time.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Apr 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> I disagree.
> 
> First off, just because someone has been in combat does not make them the SME on anything.  I know plenty of guys who were dumb before they got into a TIC, and have continued to be dumb long after.  I also know the kind of guys who say things like "It was crazy man! Nothing could prepare you for it! When the adrenaline hits you just move like your *** is on fire anyways, so it's bullshit that this young Lt cocking us on this ruck march! I know 'cause I was there man, right in the crap! And you won't be able to argue with me untill you were there too!"
> 
> ...



Amen. This quote stilll makes sense. It should - of course - apply to any soldier, and not just the 'maroon beret' wearing variety:

What manner of men are these who wear the maroon beret?

They are, firstly, all volunteers and are toughened by hard physical training.As a result they have that infectious optimism and that offensive eagerness which comes from physical well being. They have "jumped" from the air and by so doing have conquered fear. 

Their duty lies in the van of the battle; they are proud of this honour and have never failed in any task. They have the highest standards in all things whether it be skill in Battle or smartness in the execution of all peacetime duties. They have shown themselves to be as tenacious and determined in defence as they are courageous in the attack. They are, in fact, men apart -- every man an Emperor. 

Of all the factors which make for success in battle the spirit of the warrior is the most decisive. That spirit can be found in full measure in the men who wear the maroon beret.

Field Marshall The Viscount Montgomery of Alamein


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## geo (2 Apr 2008)

well.... from a personal perspective the B in BFT stands for BASIC.... as in a basic building block.  If you can t do that, then you probably can t do whatever else your leaders expect you to do in operations.


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## RTaylor (2 Apr 2008)

I do 100% agree that being physically fit rather than a gob of out of weight fat will help much more as it allows your body to concentrate on whats needed - keeping your mind straight. If you're haulin 60 pounds of gear and 40 pounds of fat with people firing at you, you're mind also has that to work on. The tub analogy is pretty right on the mark.

You can train all you want Wonder, but it's the same with any form of extreme condition, no matter how you've been trained you don't know how you'll act. The training you've gone through will give you something to concentrate on though and that is what will help you through the rough times. No matter how fit you are, only a certain amount of people will keep a straight mind when in a tight spot and be able to use that former training.

I did Swissair 111 recovery, and everyone was briefed on the situation. We had guys there that have been fired on (some hit) in Bosnia, some that were in Africa and threatened, but when they saw the body parts laying around they lost their minds. Some psychologists did also as well as other well trained personell such as military and police. Nothing can prepare you for your initial reaction and training will only go so far, it's how they decide to use it that matters. 

Personally, I still have the occasional nightmare about that callout. But again, I'm a trained counsellor with the education and experience and am personally able to cope with it. 



> The BFT (and being fit) alone does not prepare anyone for battle.  It needs to be combined with the proper mental conditioning, aggressive mindset, maturity, and skills training. These elements re-enforce each other and neglect of one leads to weakness in the others



I don't think that maturity and aggressive mindset are the best way to describe it, I think you could rephrase this to :

"The BFT (and being fit) alone does not prepare anyone for battle. It needs to be combined with the proper mental conditioning and attitude, positive mindset, and skills training. The mental and physical elements re-enforce each other, and to neglect one leads to weakness in the others."



> Really?Since I started work up training I can count on my hand's how many times our unit has had PT.Up until last week I've done PT maybe 5-6 times. I do it 2 hr's a day.Not on government time.



If things have changed, when you're scheduled to go overseas you prep by doing exercises (not exercise) to simulate a possible combat situation. Alot of this should beat the more lazy back into some semblance of shape. My cousin goes over in a few weeks to the sandbox and he's been training for a while now, as well as several others I know ( 2 infantryman, 1 arty officer and a few NCM arty, a few medics and a sig op)who have gone over have done from 2-5 months worth of training depending on what they'll be doing over there.

And of course, different units will train differently when in regards to deployment. I'm not sure if techs and others who usually don't get put into the direct line of combat go through this.


With names like Wonderbread and Popnfresh man...it's close to my suppertime


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## DirtyDog (26 Apr 2008)

It makes me sick to see people drop out of BFTs, especially early into them.

It should be a basic requirement across the entire CF, that everyone does one once a year, with no cheating.

Can't do a BFT?  Get out of the Forces.


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## PuckChaser (26 Apr 2008)

Honestly, how hard is it to turn your brain off and walk for 2 hours with a little bit of weight on your back, baring a medical condition that probably prevents you from walking even 10 minutes?


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## infamous_p (26 Apr 2008)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Honestly, how hard is it to turn your brain off and walk for 2 hours with a little bit of weight on your back, baring a medical condition that probably prevents you from walking even 10 minutes?



Not only that... the BFT is an IBTS requirement, making it a qualification that each soldier is <i>individually</i> responsible for. Therefore, each soldier can essentially set his or her own pace and complete the BFT as fast or as slow as he or she wants, as long as it falls within that two hours and twenty-seven minute (correct me if I'm wrong) requirement.

With that being said, that should give the soldier(s) even less of an excuse to not do it; as it can be completed at his or her own individual pace...


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## geo (27 Apr 2008)

THe BFT is an IBTS requirement for Combat arms people and all Blue, Black & purple types who are posted to Green army areas.

Obviously, a 13K walk in the park is not difficult at all if that is what you've always had to do BUT, if you only did the shuttle run OR "shudder" the stairs, then 13K becomes a bit of a challenge.... it's a reality that non army types are in their 2nd year of getting used to it.


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## Sig_Des (27 Apr 2008)

I'm a big proponent of everyone in a green environment having the ability to be able to just ruck up and do a BFT. Like it has been pointed out, it's the BASIC test.

Also, it requires some preparedness. Members need to know how to dress properly. I was amazed when I did my last BFT in November to see one guy wearing every piece of thermal gear he owned, plus jacket. Needless to say, after about 30 minutes, he was dizzy, and 15 minutes later, he'd overheated. People need to be smart about how they go about it.


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## Celticgirl (27 Apr 2008)

Question: When doing the BFT on basic, if you do not complete the ruck march or the fireman's carry (or both), do you fail? If so, what are the repercussions of that? I am curious after watching two people fall out of the march on Basic Up around the halfway point. Would they have had to do it again?


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## aesop081 (27 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Question: When doing the BFT on basic, if you do not complete the ruck march or the fireman's carry (or both), do you fail? If so, what are the repercussions of that? I am curious after watching two people fall out of the march on Basic Up around the halfway point. Would they have had to do it again?



Just pass and you wont have to worry about it.


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## Celticgirl (27 Apr 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Just pass and you wont have to worry about it.



Oh, I *will* pass.  ;D  I am just curious. The reason being that it seems unfair that some march the whole 13 K while others do 6 or 7 K and get driven back, potentially without consequences.


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## Pea (27 Apr 2008)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Oh, I *will* pass.  ;D  I am just curious. The reason being that it seems unfair that some march the whole 13 K while others do 6 or 7 K and get driven back, potentially without consequences.



You have PO checks (Performance objective)  in Basic training, if you do not complete the 13km it is considered a PO failure. You are allowed so many "failed PO's" before you are recoursed. So if the individual hasn't failed any PO's previously, or is below the allowed number (I forget what the amount is, I think it's 3, but don't quote me on that) then they will still pass Basic Training.


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## Celticgirl (27 Apr 2008)

Pte Pea said:
			
		

> You have PO checks (Performance objective)  in Basic training, if you do not complete the 13km it is considered a PO failure. You are allowed so many "failed PO's" before you are recoursed. So if the individual hasn't failed any PO's previously, or is below the allowed number (I forget what the amount is, I think it's 3, but don't quote me on that) then they will still pass Basic Training.



Thanks, Pea! That is exactly what I was wondering. Good to know.


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## Blackthorne (8 May 2008)

Frostnipped Elf said:
			
		

> But I am unclear as to what it proves - digging a shell scrape in gravel in 6 minutes.  As for the ammo box lift - 48 boxes in 5 minutes.
> These tasks are an annoyance, harmful if done incorrectly and IMHO do not really meet the intention as stated in AFS Manual, "designed to ensure that you are capable of enduring the rigours of operations and, if necessary, combat."  Are we tossing ammo boxes rather than grenades at the enemy?



Sorry, but as an infanteer, I have to disagree with you on this one. 

Annoyances? Making sure a gunner is well fed in a firefight is an annoyance? Digging cover to get out of harms way fast when engaged is an annoyance? 

Plus, I think you missed the word operations entirely. This can be day in day out stuff. The ammo doesn't walk itself around and defensive positions don't get dig on their own. I don't mean to come off harsh but seriously man.

This is CORE stuff. Being familiar with it and being able to do it fast could mean the difference between holding and being over run.


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## Fusaki (8 May 2008)

> Sorry, but as an infanteer, I have to disagree with you on this one.
> 
> Annoyances? Making sure a gunner is well fed in a firefight is an annoyance? Digging cover to get out of harms way fast when engaged is an annoyance?
> 
> ...



As an infanteer, I still think the new additions to the BFT are pretty ghey.

While it's true that sometimes you need to carry around ammo... well... who cares? It's like testing to see if a soldier can tie his shoelaces. Use of a shovel should not be a PO check. It's just a shovel. JUST DIG! Sure, it's better if you can dig a hole faster, but really. Who digs holes for PT? No one that I ever heard of. It's just something that you do when you're told. The 13KM march and firemans carry is an important in establishing a base level of fitness. All the other stuff is just sucking eggs.

I've done the defensive thing, working for weeks on bunkers, comms trenches, sandbagging. Never once did I feel cheated for not having done enough shovel PT.


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## rmc_wannabe (8 May 2008)

Wonderbread said:
			
		

> As an infanteer, I still think the new additions to the BFT are pretty ghey.
> 
> While it's true that sometimes you need to carry around ammo... well... who cares? It's like testing to see if a soldier can tie his shoelaces. Use of a shovel should not be a PO check. It's just a shovel. JUST DIG! Sure, it's better if you can dig a hole faster, but really. Who digs holes for PT? No one that I ever heard of. It's just something that you do when you're told. The 13KM march and firemans carry is an important in establishing a base level of fitness. All the other stuff is just sucking eggs.
> 
> I've done the defensive thing, working for weeks on bunkers, comms trenches, sandbagging. Never once did I feel cheated for not having done enough shovel PT.



Sounds similar to the logic that my MCpl had in Basic: "kicking yourself in the nuts isn't going to make you any better at receiving a kick in the nuts."


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## Fusaki (8 May 2008)

> Sounds similar to the logic that my MCpl had in Basic: "kicking yourself in the nuts isn't going to make you any better at receiving a kick in the nuts."



I don't entirely agree with that one either. Alot can be said for a gut check just for the sake of it.

What I'm trying to get at is this:

The 13km march needs to be tested because if it's not some people are going to fail it. Yes, there are those who can do one ruck march a year and make the BFT in under 2:26, but I'd say there are quite a few people who need to train for it or else they won't make it in on time. And if they do make it in on time, they'll be broken. People need to do ruck marches for PT, and their fitness needs to meet a certain standard.

The "shell scrape dig" and "ammo box lift" is different. We don't train in this sort of stuff for PT because it's not really necessary to be super fast at it. Digging a defensive is something that takes hours or days to do, and you could be improving on your position for weeks. It's hard work, but 6 minutes of shifting gravel is not an accurate measure of how well you're going to do at it. It's like testing your 100meter dash to see how you'll do on a marathon.


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