# An Armourer's Classic Top 10 Small Arms



## 1feral1 (29 Oct 2007)

Well, this November marks 30yrs in the trade as Armourer, so being influenced by another thread not far off this topic, I thought I would throw in my classic 10! Not my favourites, but classics which deserve recognition.

1. UK SMLE and variants (No.4 [Longbranch also ] and No.5)
2. German Mod 98 Mauser and variants (Gew 98 to Kar 98K)
3. US M1 Garand and M14 - A Canadian's design
4. German MP44 and its ongoing evolution of todays influenced weapons systems
5. UK STEN (we know all the urban myths, and yes we know Longbranch made them too)
6. UK BREN (yes, we know that Inglis made these too), a good workhorse
7. German MG42 (high rate of fire)
8. US M1911A1'genuine GI from Normandy to Tarawa
9. German P-38 ( the option of double action 'first shot' was well ahead of its time)
10. US M2 HB .50 MG- from air to air, and ground to ground, many versions, and still in service almost 70 yrs later!

As a few standbys, the UK EM2, the Commonwealth FAL (L1A1 and C1A1), and the good ole Martini-Henry (The Man Who would Be King) in .455/577, and in .303 

So, add your classic 10 if you like.


Regards,

Wes


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## NavyShooter (29 Oct 2007)

Ok, 

I'm not an armourer, I'm just a hobbyist, but here goes my contribution to your classics, arms I feel deserve a place also...in no particular order....

C-96 Broomhandle Mauser (loved it ever since Han Solo, and if it was good enough for Winston Churchill...)
Maxim 08, the devil's paintbrush.....it changed the face of warfare forever
Lewis Gun, it brought the machine-gun into maneuver warfare at the squad level
AR-15, and descendants.  With a stock wrench and a couple of push-pins, you've got a rifle almost as versatile as the Thompson Contender....

Oh, and thinking of the Thompson Contender....here's a good yarn that I'm sure you'll appreciate:


The Thompson/Center Submachine Gun

by Mike Briski 
  The Thompson/Center submachine gun was the brainchild of John Thompson and Warren Center, two avid silhouette shooters and military firearm designers. 

  The T/CSMG is a small drum-fed machinegun with interchangeable barrels available in calibers ranging from 0.17 Remington to 45-70 Government, as well as 0.410 shotgun. Both pistol and carbine versions are available, as well as the "Carbine Conversion Kit" which allows the pistol to be converted into a carbine. 

  Thompson and Center developed the gun in the 1920's as a military weapon, but it gained fame (or notoriety) because of its popularity with bootleggers. The advantages of a gun which could fire .45 ACP ammunition during a raid on a speakeasy, and then be used as a .223 on varmints, made it a favorite in the Chicago environs, where gangsters, federal agents and woodchucks were all abundant. Police forces and the "Feds" soon demanded that they be similarly armed. 

  Gangsters used the .22 barrels for quiet basement practice and police forces, always short of funds, used then-economical .22 shorts to keep their training budgets low. Everyone seemed to love the .45 Long Colt barrels, which also chambered and fired 0.410 shotgun shells. A fifty-round drum loaded with alternating .45 hollowpoints and 0.410 00 buckshot loads was a popular self defense load, and was known as the "wall of lead". 

  Many collectors tried to own one of every available barrel, and several companies offered barrels which were not available from T/C. The 45-70 Government cartridge, which was almost extinct, recieved a new lease on life when barrels for the T/CSMG became available. 

  The T/CSMG spawned a host of wildcat loadings, as enthusiasts sought to optimize the performance of this strong and versatile gun. The 6mm TCU was developed for the "St. Valentine's Day" silhouette competition, which featured teams of five spraying gangster silhouetes at various ranges. 

  The outbreak of WWII brought the first widespread military use of the T/CSMG. It proved far more popular with the troops than the comparably sized M1 carbine, as a soldier with a Thompson could fire either .45 ACP or M1 Carbine ammunition in his beloved "Tommy Gun". Though the military discouraged the practice, many rural fathers mailed their sons 30-30 barrels and boxes of Winchester softpoints, which made the Thompson into a handy brush gun. A letter, written shortly after the Normandy invasion, says "Pa, thanks for the bullits (sic). I got three Germans and a nice four-pointer yesterday. Say hi to Ma." Experiments with 8mm Mauser barrels, intended to allow the use of captured ammunition, were failures, as even the strong T/C actions could not hold up under the high pressures they produced. 9mm Luger barrels were issued, however, and allowed scavenged German ammunition to be put to good use. 

  The T/CSMG saw limited action in Korea and Viet Nam, though it was no longer a standard issue weapon, and is still popular with collectors today. Semi-automatic versions, which are legal for civilian use, are still available, and there is a very active T/CSMG collectors asssociation. 

  (This article was borrowed from the REC.Guns archives. Attribution is above. YES, THIS IS A JOKE...I realize that such a firearm would be impossible.)


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## MedTechStudent (29 Oct 2007)

Question.  Is the M1911A another name for a Colt .45?...Cause if so, thats a very pretty pistol.


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## aesop081 (29 Oct 2007)

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Question.  Is the M1911A another name for a Colt .45?...Cause if so, thats a very pretty pistol.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1911


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## SteveB (29 Oct 2007)

My but I hesitate to post a difference of opinion with you Wes.  I've only shot about two thirds of your list and none of the ones I would add to it.  Much of my thinking here revolves around the classic nature you specified for the list.  I was thinking that both the "Safe action" and the construction of the Glock 17 would make it a better choice than the P-38 but, I just can't quite hang that moniker on it at such a young age.

It was looking at both the start and end of your list and it made me wonder if we have both WW I and MG's, where is the Maxim family?  Really from the Boer war to the end of WWII in it's Vicker's incarnation, this has to rate as a classic, not just for it's impact on both sides of the Great War, but also as it was really the first MG to see wide spread acceptance.

Then there's the MP 44.  As you yourself said in another thread, it bares only cosmetic resemblance to the Kalashnikov family.  Also, though the first in general service, as that thread pointed out, it wasn't the first rifle chambered for an intermediate cartridge.

Yeah, the more I think on it, the more I'd swap the Maxim/Vickers with the MP 44, and maybe the Colt Peacemaker for the Sten, I mean come on a Sten?  I know it was important after Normandy, but come on. ;D


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## onecat (30 Oct 2007)

Good list but would have a change few, again I'm no armourer and haven't all of them but this is my list.

1) lee Enfield NO.4
2) The Mauser action.
3) FN FAL
4) The Garand and M-14
5) M-42, FN Mag, and PKM  there all good.
6) PPSH-41
7) M-16
8) AK
9) MP-44, it started after all.
10) Maxim MG's of the Great War.


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## KevinB (30 Oct 2007)

1 Maxim MG series
2 Lewis Gun
3 Mauser action
4 1911
5 Browning P-35
6 AK-47 series
7 M16 FOW
8 Browning M2 .50
9 FN MAG-58
10 Rifle US M1 (Garrand)


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## GAP (30 Oct 2007)

Having not shot a tremendous number of military weapons, I still like the M-14. A little heavy, but accurate, sustained fire with a punch. The others all had this or that that I did not care for, but the M-14 just kept on ticking... 

(my worst would be getting an M-1 thumb)


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## 1feral1 (30 Oct 2007)

GAP said:
			
		

> Having not shot a tremendous number of military weapons, I still like the M-14. A little heavy, but accurate, sustained fire with a punch. The others all had this or that that I did not care for, but the M-14 just kept on ticking...
> 
> (my worst would be getting an M-1 thumb)



On my 'Grand ole Garand', I have mastered the drill perfectly, and quckly of course. Even though I only get a few clips out of here every three or four years when I am home.


Cheers,

Wes


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## je suis prest (30 Oct 2007)

The land pattern musket,  also known as the "Brown Bess",  was the standard British weapon from 1722 to 1835,  and survived in use in Canada beyond that time. It was the weapon that fought at Louisbourg, Quebec, Lundy's Lane and a host of battles and skirmishes from one end of this country to the other.  A nice piece of Georgian design, and it even has its own poem:

 "Brown Bess"
   

  In the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise--
An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes-- 
At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

Though her sight was not long and her weight was not small,
Yet her actions were winning, her language was clear; 
And everyone bowed as she opened the ball
On the arm of some high-gaitered, grim grenadier.
Half Europe admitted the striking success
Of the dances and routs that were given by Brown Bess.

When ruffles were turned into stiff leather stocks,
And people wore pigtails instead of perukes,
Brown Bess never altered her iron-grey locks.
She knew she was valued for more than her looks.
"Oh, powder and patches was always my dress,
And I think am killing enough," said Brown Bess.

So she followed her red-coats, whatever they did,
From the heights of Quebec to the plains of Assaye,
From Gibraltar to Acre, Cape Town and Madrid, 
And nothing about her was changed on the way;
(But most of the Empire which now we possess 
Was won through those years by old-fashioned Brown Bess.)

In stubborn retreat or in stately advance,
From the Portugal coast to the cork-woods of Spain,
She had puzzled some excellent Marshals of France
Till none of them wanted to meet her again:
But later, near Brussels, Napoleon--no less--
Arranged for a Waterloo ball with Brown Bess.

She had danced till the dawn of that terrible day--
She danced till the dusk of more terrible night,
And before her linked squares his battalions gave way,
And her long fierce quadrilles put his lancers to flight:
And when his gilt carriage drove off in the press, 
"I have danced my last dance for the world!" said Brown Bess.

If you go to Museums--there's one in Whitehall--
Where old weapons are shown with their names writ beneath,
You will find her, upstanding, her back to the wall,
As stiff as a ramrod, the flint in her teeth.
And if ever we English had reason to bless
Any arm save our mothers', that arm is Brown Bess! 

Rudyard Kipling


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## geo (30 Oct 2007)

Shouldn't we include the Winchester repeating rifles (models 1866 & 1873)?


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## 1feral1 (30 Oct 2007)

Geo, why not!

Seen some Win M94 .30-30 with 'C broad arrow marks' on them at gun shows in Saskatchewan. I was told they were in the system in WW2 for domestic use, but can't remember the whole story.

Maybe someone on here can.


Cheers,

Wes


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## je suis prest (30 Oct 2007)

The North West Mounted  Police used the Winchester 1876 model.  The RCMP used the M 94 model.


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## geo (30 Oct 2007)

During WW2 the Rangers operating out of BC used the Winchester.  Ammo was localy purchased


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## rz350 (30 Oct 2007)

I'm no armourer, this is purly arm chair general stuff, but here is my top 10

1) SMLE .303 (need I say anything?)
2) Ak-47 and descendants (rugged, versatile, cheap, and EVERYWHERE, its been to hell and back, 10,000 times, and truly is the "classic" assault rifle)
3) 1911. I think it marked the true end of the revolver in *military standard issue* use. (wheel gun fans note the bold)
4) PPSH-41. It proved that high power, long range rifles are not the be all, end all of battle. it helped to move infantry squads from bolts around an MG, to all equipped with automatic weapons. (the Germans did not use formed units with all automatic weapons until the Soviets sent shock units all with the PPSH, before that, it was only special issue to have an SMG)
5) AR-15 series. Just for its modular and modifiable set up.
6) HK Mp5 series. its the ubiquitous modern SMG. 
7) MG-42 and MG-3...they are just freaking cool.
8) The Ross Rifle. It showed that politics and pork barreling do not a good rifle make.
9) Lewis gun...the first Squad automatic weapon.
10)StG-44 The first true assault rifle.


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## geo (31 Oct 2007)

rz... Stg44, PPSH and AK are all from around the same time and taking aim at the same concept... taking up 1/3 of the list?  I think not.


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## onecat (31 Oct 2007)

"rz... Stg44, PPSH and AK are all from around the same time and taking aim at the same concept... taking up 1/3 of the list? "

The PPSH is sugmachine and if you look at it the used at the height the subgun race, after which their use slowly declined to the use of the Assualt rifles and Battle rifles.  On my List the PPSH deserves its spot.

The AK speaks for itself. If anything the MP-44 could be moved to the same number as the AK.  But but as a sub listing because of its short service lenght, but it did start the AR ball rolling.


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## mudgunner49 (31 Oct 2007)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Geo, why not!
> 
> Seen some Win M94 .30-30 with 'C broad arrow marks' on them at gun shows in Saskatchewan. I was told they were in the system in WW2 for domestic use, but can't remember the whole story.
> 
> ...



Wes,

I have one of those via an uncle who left it to me when he passed on in 1999.  He obtained it from an old gentleman who had the camp next to his on Manitoulin Island on the north shore of Lake Huron.  It was used by him when he was a guard at a German/Italian POW camp on Manitoulin Island during War2.  I can take some pics for you if you like when I get my camera back from son #1...


blake


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## GAP (31 Oct 2007)

I still have my grandfather's 94.

The front sight is a penny welded on and filed down by one of my uncles when he knocked it off somehow.  Excellent rifle.


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## Danjanou (31 Oct 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> During WW2 the Rangers operating out of BC used the Winchester.  Ammo was localy purchased



The Pacific Coast Militia Rangers were issued them along with most of the first produced sten guns in Canada







http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Pacific_Coast_Militia_Rangers

http://www.navalandmilitarymuseum.org/resource_pages/coastal_defence/pcmr.html

http://www.okmilmuseum.ca/okmilmuseumrmpcmr.htm


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## MG34 (31 Oct 2007)

Not in any partcular order:

Modèle 1886 Lebel: First repeating rifle that was general issue to a standing army, and first weapon to use smokeless powder as a propellant

Brown Bess: The rifle that won continents in British Service

1883 LeFever Shotgun: First hammerless and automatic ejecting shotguns, later bought out by Ithaca in 1916

Stg 44: no need for any comment

AR15 FOW

AK FOW

Maxim MG

Madsen Machine Gun: First LMG to be issued to any army

Mauser C96: First semi automatic pistol to see military service

Mauser 98 series


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## timma (3 Dec 2007)

1. SMLE No4 .303
2. M1 Garand
3. Colt M1911A1
4. Bren Mk2
5. Thompson SMG
6. MG 42
7. Browning .50 HMG
8. AK 47
9. FN C1
10. Vickers .303 MG


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## uzi (31 Dec 2007)

i'll say: m16/m4, aug, glock17, minimi, mp5, uzi, ak47/74,beretta 92F,mp38/40,sten


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## Simonov (31 Dec 2007)

Of the more recent history IMO:

1. StG44 - revolutionary design that resulted in the modern assault rifle and changed modern warfare.
2. M1 Garand - First semi-automatic service rifle fielded en masse.
3. Mr. Browning's M1911 - locked breech design used in almost every modern semi pistol.
4. FN FAL/HK G3 - Cold War defenders of the Free World.
5. MG-42 - Used to this very day.
6. MP5 - The SMG of choice for decades.
7. Mauser 98 action.
8. Glock - Tactical Tupperware.
9. FN MINIMI - THE light support weapon of the 21st century.
10. AK - Yeah they made millions of them, so I guess it deserves a spot. Otherwise unremarkable.

Honourary 11. place for the HK P7, though not as relevant, it's an excellent carry handgun.


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