# "Training to the test?"  (split fm Res Hand to hand)



## krimynal (27 Feb 2015)

I don't know how the Reg force is.  But as I saw during my BMQ + DQ + DP1 , they basically give you an answer written on a paper sheet , tell you the copy that on the test , then if you somehow didn't do it properly , they give you back a new test, give you 20 minutes to redo and act like if nothing ever happened. 

I somehow hope this is not the regular stuff every reserve unit are dealing with.  Sadly I kind of felt somewhat ashamed and I saw people making it through BMQ + DQ + DP1 that shouldn't even think of joining in the first place.  But hey who am I right ?


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## RedcapCrusader (27 Feb 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> I don't know how the Reg force is.  But as I saw during my BMQ + DQ + DP1 , they basically give you an answer written on a paper sheet , tell you the copy that on the test , then if you somehow didn't do it properly , they give you back a new test, give you 20 minutes to redo and act like if nothing ever happened.
> 
> I somehow hope this is not the regular stuff every reserve unit are dealing with.  Sadly I kind of felt somewhat ashamed and I saw people making it through BMQ + DQ + DP1 that shouldn't even think of joining in the first place.  But hey who am I right ?



What?

Also, I doubt it this.


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## krimynal (27 Feb 2015)

we had different test in our BMQ , weapon handling , drills , etc. etc. etc. 

let's say the Weapon Handling.  20 minutes before the exam, 1 staff member would gather all of us in a room, Hold the test + answers in his hand , and go through all of them 1 by 1.  Giving away the answers. As soon as he was done , had a 5 minute break , comeback in the room and you do the same test.  

If ever someone failed it.  They wouldn't even put it in the file, just give him 1 night to "Study" , did a "question period" with him alone ( basically doing the same thing I just said ) then he would do it again and pass.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> we had different test in our BMQ , weapon handling , drills , etc. etc. etc.
> 
> let's say the Weapon Handling.  20 minutes before the exam, 1 staff member would gather all of us in a room, Hold the test + answers in his hand , and go through all of them 1 by 1.  Giving away the answers. As soon as he was done , had a 5 minute break , comeback in the room and you do the same test.
> 
> If ever someone failed it.  They wouldn't even put it in the file, just give him 1 night to "Study" , did a "question period" with him alone ( basically doing the same thing I just said ) then he would do it again and pass.



So you're saying you will spend the rest of your military career never really knowing whether or not you deserved to pass?

Heavy.


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## krimynal (27 Feb 2015)

I guess that's a way to put it.  I do believe I have sometype of basic knowledge but never know I might be totally wrong.

What my point was, I understand the need to not loose to much people on a class.  The need to keep the recruits up and make them stay in the army for the long run.  To what cost?

When you are in a combat arms trade, I would expect people to be somehow switched on because you are dealing with live fire and live explosive.  Yet I saw people who I wouldn't even trust them using a lighter to light a smoke without setting the whole camp on fire.  

Remember this is my personal opinion / situation.  Like I said it might be only affecting my unit.


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## NSDreamer (27 Feb 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> we had different test in our BMQ , weapon handling , drills , etc. etc. etc.
> 
> let's say the Weapon Handling.  20 minutes before the exam, 1 staff member would gather all of us in a room, Hold the test + answers in his hand , and go through all of them 1 by 1.  Giving away the answers. As soon as he was done , had a 5 minute break , comeback in the room and you do the same test.
> 
> If ever someone failed it.  They wouldn't even put it in the file, just give him 1 night to "Study" , did a "question period" with him alone ( basically doing the same thing I just said ) then he would do it again and pass.



:bullshit:

 If I was your course officer, those MCpls and Sgts would swing. There's ways to give subtle hints, yes, but showing answer sheets?  This is by no means the standard. Frig set the damn standard.


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## krimynal (27 Feb 2015)

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> :bullshit:
> 
> If I was your course officer, those MCpls and Sgts would swing. There's ways to give subtle hints, yes, but showing answer sheets?  This is by no means the standard. Frig set the damn standard.



exact reason why I said I somehow felt ashamed of this.  I mean I always held the forces to a high standard ( maybe foolishly ).  This is one of the main reason why I applied for a CT as soon as I could ( straight out of DP1 ).  I felt like this was really not what I was looking for out of the army.  I expected challenges, I met some physically but this somehow set me off a lot !


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## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> When you are in a combat arms trade, I would expect people to be somehow switched on because you are dealing with live fire and live explosive.  *Yet I saw people who I wouldn't even trust them using a lighter to light a smoke* without setting the whole camp on fire.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2015)

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> :bullshit:
> 
> If I was your course officer, those MCpls and Sgts would swing. There's ways to give subtle hints, yes, but showing answer sheets?  This is by no means the standard. Frig set the damn standard.



How do you expect recruits to know what the right answer is if you don't tell them what the right answer is?


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## krimynal (27 Feb 2015)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How do you expect recruits to know what the right answer is if you don't tell them what the right answer is?



the thing is , we had previous classes on the whole thing.  Then the day of the exam, we had a "revision period" which is the whole thing I'm referring to.  Then we did the test. 

It's not like if we never spoke of those things before.  People weren't even bothering to study or anything since we knew the day of the exam they would go through the whole thing giving us the answers ....


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## NSDreamer (27 Feb 2015)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How do you expect recruits to know what the right answer is if you don't tell them what the right answer is?



 I expect them to pay attention during the training. For instructors to pay attention to students and identify which ones are not paying attention and make them do so to the best of their abilities. For those that refuse to learn? _I expect them to fail_. Following that I expect them to be recoursed, have been woken up and try again, and if they fail again? Not worth the crown's dollar.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2015)

That makes sense.


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## krimynal (27 Feb 2015)

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> I expect them to pay attention during the training. For instructors to pay attention to students and identify which ones are not paying attention and make them do so to the best of their abilities. For those that refuse to learn? _I expect them to fail_. Following that I expect them to be recoursed, have been woken up and try again, and if they fail again? Not worth the crown's dollar.



to be honest that's what I was expecting also .... seems like it's not something that happened in my case .... neither on my BMQ / SQ / DP1 ... 
does it have something to do with the classes being shortened ? ( usually we had 1 month SQ , 1 month DP1 ) now we only had 2 weeks for each.  Maybe so, but even then, it is still not normal to "Make sure people pass" because "we don't have as much time".


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## NSDreamer (27 Feb 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> to be honest that's what I was expecting also .... seems like it's not something that happened in my case .... neither on my BMQ / SQ / DP1 ...
> does it have something to do with the classes being shortened ? ( usually we had 1 month SQ , 1 month DP1 ) now we only had 2 weeks for each.  Maybe so, but even then, it is still not normal to "Make sure people pass" because "we don't have as much time".



 I don't understand it, I won't understand it. If we lower the training bar, and still need the same results, we will not get the training time we NEED unless we fail people as they should be failed and the higher ups see OH SHIT this doesn't work.


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## krimynal (27 Feb 2015)

yeah that was how I saw that also ... usually if you need to give the training in 2 weeks other than the usual months.  Shouldn't it be harder and simply faster ?  

Now on my SQ they haven't qualified me on grenade / Carlo / m72 / c6 .... the only thing I saw was C9 and radio .... The point was that our units were supposed to train us on that.  Once we got to our units , they told us we should of been trained on our SQ.  So we had a 40 minutes training on all of them combined , made us do a small quiz , and told us we were now qualified. 

I understand the principle with the budget and everything around it..... but this feels completely wrong to me !


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## Teager (27 Feb 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> yeah that was how I saw that also ... usually if you need to give the training in 2 weeks other than the usual months.  Shouldn't it be harder and simply faster ?
> 
> Now on my SQ they haven't qualified me on grenade / Carlo / m72 / c6 .... the only thing I saw was C9 and radio .... The point was that our units were supposed to train us on that.  Once we got to our units , they told us we should of been trained on our SQ.  So we had a 40 minutes training on all of them combined , made us do a small quiz , and told us we were now qualified.
> 
> I understand the principle with the budget and everything around it..... but this feels completely wrong to me !



I know there is a thread discussing the training that has been cut out of BMQ-L (SQ). The training you did not get is what was mentioned as cut out of the course.


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## krimynal (27 Feb 2015)

yeah I know that , and I get the reason behind it , my point is more about , why is it "easier" to become a member , if the course is "smaller" in length ???

Even if they remove some stuff out of it ( Because they don't have as much time ).  The course should actually be harder because like I said they don't have as much time.  Anyways I don't want to start a whole vendetta against the reserve.  

I was just very very surprised on how things where on the reserve side of things..... When I first joined the army ( in 2005 - 2006 ) I dropped in my BMQ because I wasn't cut out for it back then.  Never , ever , ever , ever did it felt as easy as the one I just did.  Back then 2-3 days in if someone made a mistake they were already yelling and making us do pushups and everything ( which is the right thing to do ! )

now on the one I did recently, things were so easy ...... and honestly it didn't felt right ....


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## ZacheryK (27 Feb 2015)

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> :bullshit:
> 
> If I was your course officer, those MCpls and Sgts would swing. There's ways to give subtle hints, yes, but showing answer sheets?  This is by no means the standard. Frig set the damn standard.




Unfortunately the same thing happened in my BMQ and all through my trades training. We had a kid load his magazine upside down repeatedly, but somehow passed his weapons handling test. Same kid on our infantry course failed the BFT, withdraw from the defensive, and was kicked off the range while doing jungle lanes. Somehow he was formed up with us on graduation day. I still cringe whenever I see him walking around wearing his unit cap badge. 

Theres members on this forum that have had longer coffee breaks than my accumuliatve career in the Army. That said, I've definitely noticed that all I've been exposed to is a no fail army.


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## krimynal (27 Feb 2015)

we had a kid on our DP1 , it was his 5Th attempt at the DP1 ..... not 2ND .... 5Th .... Don't get me wrong , things can happen in you can fail , or get hurt , but 5Th time back in.... sometimes as a unit , you have to be able to tell someone that he might just not be cut up for it !

And even if it was is 5Th try .... he was still completely clueless ... didn't seem to know the difference between a C7 and a C3 ... Even the staff were always picking on him because they thought it was just dumb to have him in back again ....


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## NSDreamer (4 Mar 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> we had a kid on our DP1 , it was his 5Th attempt at the DP1 ..... not 2ND .... 5Th .... Don't get me wrong , things can happen in you can fail , or get hurt , but 5Th time back in.... sometimes as a unit , you have to be able to tell someone that he might just not be cut up for it !
> 
> And even if it was is 5Th try .... he was still completely clueless ... didn't seem to know the difference between a C7 and a C3 ... Even the staff were always picking on him because they thought it was just dumb to have him in back again ....



 Sounds stupid...to be fair though, I have no idea what a C3 is and have never seen one...that I'm aware of.

I will state that I just redid my range quals, and over 50% of the people there were identified as having failed the range. It was good, and somewhat frightening to see.


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## cryco (4 Mar 2015)

helpful link for people like you (and me) that don't know what is what.

http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/weapons/index.page


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## Dissident (4 Mar 2015)

This thread is damaging my calm.

I've put a lot of personal effort into helping individual troops learn material. That some people give freebies just makes me irationally angry.


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## chrisf (4 Mar 2015)

Is anyone really pretending this crap doesn't happen?

I haven't taught a BMQ in a couple of years, but the last few I did teach, if you didn't quit, you passed. They were for all intents and purposes no fail.

Don't pretend it's the fault of the instructors either, I work very hard when teaching, but when a troop is going to PRB for a third, fourth, or fifth time for the same test, and being given a fourth, fifth, or sixth chance to pass the test, after doing the same thing every other test... maybe it's not the instructors fault... maybe at some point the higher chain of command needs to say "Hey, maybe we're wasting our time trying to slap a hat badge on this idiot"

I always still tried my damndest to teach, but most others just gave up, if you knew the order was going to be retest them, why bother with the PRB?


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## NSDreamer (5 Mar 2015)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Is anyone really pretending this crap doesn't happen?
> 
> I haven't taught a BMQ in a couple of years, but the last few I did teach, if you didn't quit, you passed. They were for all intents and purposes no fail.
> 
> ...



  :bullshit: It is my firm opinion that this where the Course O needs to stand up and go Sir/Ma'am, respectfully, you're fubar. Yeah it's a shitty thing to have to do, but I've sat in that exact hot seat and done it, I expect my peers to do it. I don't want the Cpl Bloggins I pass on a course (in this case driver wheel) to be the dumb sh** that ends up killing a family of 4 with the HL.


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## sharki9876 (5 Mar 2015)

Interesting, since this forum always advises against "spoon feeding", claiming that you and I won't find this in the army, but... :not-again:


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## Loachman (5 Mar 2015)

The CF, unfortunately, is not free of slugs.

Allowing those who fail, especially consistently and regardless of the effort wasted on them, is inexcusable.


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## krimynal (5 Mar 2015)

I'm happy to see that I am not alone thinking that this was not the right way to do.  My goal was to , at some point in my career, give BMQ's and Trade specified class.... but when I saw my staff, I was thinking that there were no way on earth I would be able to teach like that.  I thought to myself, I'm either going to be someone that recruits are not going to enjoy but they are going to know that I don't stand for B****** or I am not going to teach anything at all......

At least I know There is still hope and that was not suppose to happen !


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## Halifax Tar (5 Mar 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> I'm happy to see that I am not alone thinking that this was not the right way to do.  My goal was to , at some point in my career, give BMQ's and Trade specified class.... but when I saw my staff, I was thinking that there were no way on earth I would be able to teach like that.  I thought to myself, I'm either going to be someone that recruits are not going to enjoy but they are going to know that I don't stand for B****** or I am not going to teach anything at all......
> 
> At least I know There is still hope and that was not suppose to happen !



I have done some work in the trg system, teaching QL3 and QL5 sup tech courses.  I think I was an excellent instructor.  I treated my classes like adults and explained to them the standard to achieve and to work do better than that.  I also held them to that standard and when the failed to meet it I corrected it.  I also explained to them to keep their noses clean, behave appropriately and look after each other like a family and I would shield them from anything I could.  I also made myself available at any time to them. 

Low and behold I had excellent classes in both the academic and deportment areas.  Some PC failures for sure but every student managed to pass on the rewrite.  None that I thought were undeserving of further employment.


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## krimynal (5 Mar 2015)

I was studying to become a teacher here in Quebec ( want to become a teacher once I retired from the army ).  I remember speaking to one of my teacher here at the university and told her how I envision myself in a school. 

I see myself being a Strict yet fair teacher.  Open door policy and I don't mind doing Overtime to help someone that is WILLING to pass.  I will have my rules which are not meant to be cross, or else there will be consequences.  As much as I can be the greatest guy you will ever met, the one that will throw himself in front of the bus for you anytime, as much as I can be the biggest jerk.  This all depends on how you wanna test me.

When I saw my staff, I felt like I was in a kindergarden more then in an army BMQ .... I don't want to see anyone failing , that is clearly not my intention.  But I want to see people put in time and effort, people sticking for eachother and help eachother out.  Which never happened in our BMQ.  People didn't have enough "fear" to feel the need to help eachother....


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## sharki9876 (5 Mar 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> I'm happy to see that I am not alone thinking that this was not the right way to do.  My goal was to , at some point in my career, give BMQ's and Trade specified class.... but when I saw my staff, I was thinking that there were no way on earth I would be able to teach like that.  I thought to myself, I'm either going to be someone that recruits are not going to enjoy but they are going to know that I don't stand for B****** or I am not going to teach anything at all......
> 
> At least I know There is still hope and that was not suppose to happen !



If this upsets you so much, why don't you talk to someone in your regiment about it? Maybe they will be able to give a better explanation than someone here.


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## krimynal (5 Mar 2015)

trust me , even the staff weren't happy about it either.  Most of them wanted to push us to our limit, and try to break us, As soon as they tried, some higher ranks kicked in and told them to chill down and to stop doing what they were doing.  We had a lot of conversation about the subject to our Mcpl and SGT .... none of them we're happy about it, but it came from higher up !


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## chrisf (5 Mar 2015)

NSDreamer said:
			
		

> :bullshit: It is my firm opinion that this where the Course O needs to stand up and go Sir/Ma'am, respectfully, you're fubar. Yeah it's a shitty thing to have to do, but I've sat in that exact hot seat and done it, I expect my peers to do it. I don't want the Cpl Bloggins I pass on a course (in this case driver wheel) to be the dumb sh** that ends up killing a family of 4 with the HL.



I'm glad you're full of piss and vinegar, so best of luck with it  :

It really doesn't change the fact that it's happening and happening constantly and consistently.


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## cryco (6 Mar 2015)

Is this happening because there is a fear of a shortage of men and women if they start failing people out? Are the higher ups worried about consequences if the students get pushed to hard or fail and then complain?
Who can this benefit by allowing this to happen?


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Mar 2015)

sharki9876 said:
			
		

> If this upsets you so much, why don't you talk to someone in your regiment about it? Maybe they will be able to give a better explanation than someone here.



At least get sworn in before you start handing out advice on the military.

Also, unlike yourself, there are tons of people here with loads of experience and a closet full of T-shirts, that know exactly what they are talking about.

BTW, whether intentional or not, your attitude appears to be showing in your last two comments. If that's the case, be careful where you tread.


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## NSDreamer (6 Mar 2015)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> I'm glad you're full of piss and vinegar, so best of luck with it  :
> 
> It really doesn't change the fact that it's happening and happening constantly and consistently.



Heh it's without a doubt a subject that touches a nerve for me. I know it happens, and when I encounter it I will try to fix it. It's the best I can do, and if someday I end up as a Snr Officer in CFLTC, or CLFRS...well...well well.


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## krimynal (6 Mar 2015)

sharki9876 said:
			
		

> If this upsets you so much, why don't you talk to someone in your regiment about it? Maybe they will be able to give a better explanation than someone here.



that has to be the worst advice ever.  

1st : there is a Chain of Command , and it's there for something, If you have a trouble with the instruction you do it via the CoC.  When the one above you tell you the rule come from higher up.  Well that's the end of it.

2ND : That has to be the greatest way to have a huge frigging target on you're back.  Picture this : So today since Gunner X here thinks we are not doing enough PT he said he would LOVE to run around you guys while doing the 5KM run.  Happy Gunner X ?

3rd : I'm not the one who decide who should pass and fail.  I don't want to fail people out because I THOUGHT the course should be harder ( and trust me , with all the budjet cut they are doing the best they can right now ).

4Th : No one in the situation enjoyed that , but we all had to do it, staff hated it because they felt it was dumb , but couldn't do anything against the direct order.  Us as recruits hated that because we felt some people shouldn't have passed yet here they are wearing the badge ...


For those reason , no I won't go complain to the commander of the unit !


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## sharki9876 (6 Mar 2015)

Well then my bad


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## cupper (6 Mar 2015)

Unless things have changed over the interceding decades since I did my JLC/CLC and BIT courses, and instructed on TQ1 and Driver Maintenance, the means and methods used for instruction are designed to ensure that even a marginal student should be able to learn what they are being taught.

There will be those that do have difficulty picking up on certain concepts that are foreign to them because they aren't common experience in the civilian world. But with sufficient time spent working with the weakest students, they should be able to get a bare pass on knowledge and skill training sets. Drill is a little different, there are some who are so uncoordinated that left will always be right, but work with them and they can at least look like they know what they are doing. The students need to be able to approach the instructors and ask for additional help. However a good instructor will also identify the weak students that can use it, and work with them without needing to be asked.

And yes there will always be the exception to that rule where they just cannot pick up what you are laying down. Nad there are always going to be students that suck big time at drill. These are the ones that should be given one opportunity to retake the course and then released, as they will never be able to get it. 5 or 6 times you have to wonder why we are wasting time, effort and money.


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## Poacher434 (7 Apr 2015)

This is unfortunately...not too uncommon. 

The military tends to focus on having successful candidates more than failures.
Try to see it from a broader spectrum.

Hypothetical time.

You are on your Infantry course; brand new to the way of the army, and newer to tactics.
You are learning about recce patrols, and if you are a keener, you can identify differences with VP, RP, ORV, etc.
Now you have no concrete idea on how to conduct them, nor have the soldiering skills to do so effectively.

What I have learned as an instructor and how I feel personally is that if the member can have a very basic knowledge of the working parts within anything, than the course has done its job.

With time, you will learn that the majority of skills perfected and knowledge achieved is through training/discussions with your peers, your own initiative, and generally your exposure to the subject matter.

I have faith that the army shares the same idea, why put a soldier on course for upwards of a year, spend all that money, use up that serial on the course, only to possibly fail them because they cannot complete a written test? Where as perhaps they are someone who learns better through practical components.... now we are jumping into different kinds of learners which is a different discussion on its own.

Essentially, depending on the course, subject matter, trade, etc.... a written test is generally less important than the practical component, especially whereas the written test usually comes immediately after exposure to brand new material.


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## GreenWood (7 Apr 2015)

^ I 100% agree with this post, also, there are many different types of learners. Oral, visual, practical etc.

Someone might have a hard time with written test, but when it gets to doing the task in person, they excels in it. Sometimes it's the other way around...

Also courses now (Ref. to Res) are so condensed that it's almost impossible to retain all that information, but they stated in our course that we will learn and practice more in depth on that subject matter in your unit. And they we right.

Just my  :2c:  ;D


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