# "+1" Posts --- and the removal of them



## armyvern (10 Mar 2008)

Tonight, I deleted some posts that served no purpose other than to add:

" _+1_ "

to someone else's post.

I removed them because, quite frankly, they do diddley squat except waste bandwidth (besides irritate the hell out of me), adding nothing significant to the topic discussions at hand.

So, if you happen to notice your post count going down, and have made "+1" posts yourself -- you know where to find me; I can be reached via PM.

ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Mar 2008)

+1!


----------



## Good2Golf (10 Mar 2008)

You were expecting that, right Vern?  :-*

G2G


----------



## Yrys (10 Mar 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> You were expecting that, right Vern?  :-*


*I* wasn't expecting it, but ArmyVern got experience  ...


----------



## Spring_bok (11 Mar 2008)

Its great to be king I guess.  +1 is an abreviated echo of someones statement.  Deleting it is just like silencing someone.  Kind of like putting a lock on a thread just as it starts to get good. Silenced.


----------



## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

Spring_bok said:
			
		

> Deleting it is just like silencing someone.



*OR* it could also be seen as an enticement to elaborate one's opinion, so their posts won't get ereased...






In fact, a push to speak out more  .


----------



## Michael OLeary (11 Mar 2008)

Spring_bok said:
			
		

> Its great to be king I guess.  +1 is an abreviated echo of someones statement.  Deleting it is just like silencing someone.  Kind of like putting a lock on a thread just as it starts to get good. Silenced.



"+1" posts add no useful data in an archived thread.  Vern is not talking about deleting a "+1" in an active thread as soon as it has been posted, but in older threads that are improved by being pared down to the posts that actually make the thread useful information for later searches.  If someone is so sensitive that having a "+1" post deleted seems to be censoring them, then perhaps they need to actually contribute to the discussion in the first place.


----------



## the 48th regulator (11 Mar 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> "+1" posts add no useful data in an archived thread.  Vern is not talking about deleting a "+1" in an active thread as soon as it has been posted, but in older threads that are improved by being pared down to the posts that actually make the thread useful information for later searches.  If someone is so sensitive that having a "+1" post deleted seems to be censoring them, then perhaps they need to actually contribute to the discussion in the first place.









dileas

tess


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Mar 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> "+1" posts add no useful data in an archived thread.  Vern is not talking about deleting a "+1" in an active thread as soon as it has been posted, but in older threads that are improved by being pared down to the posts that actually make the thread useful information for later searches.  If someone is so sensitive that having a "+1" post deleted seems to be censoring them, then perhaps they need to actually contribute to the discussion in the first place.



 +1   Hear, hear!


----------



## armyvern (11 Mar 2008)

Spring_bok said:
			
		

> Its great to be king I guess.  +1 is an abreviated echo of someones statement.  Deleting it is just like silencing someone.  Kind of like putting a lock on a thread just as it starts to get good. Silenced.



Wow. 

Deleting a "+1" = "silenced??

They haven't said a darn word -- someone else did ... and THAT post is still there (And, guess what?? THAT post is the important one).  

And, just so you know -- I have no qualms about deleting a "+1" immediately after it is made either -- it still adds nothing relevant to the discussion topic at hand; rather, the post it is in reference to added something relevant (and shall therefore remain).


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Mar 2008)

:-\

Sorry, Vern...my evil twin brother got a hold of my computer for a bit....bad evil twin brother!  :rage:

You are of course, quite right, +1's are not overly useful...perhaps a quota of 1 per 1000 posts, anything else will be expunged with severe prejudice! 

G2G


----------



## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> You are of course, quite right, +1's are not overly useful...perhaps a quota of 1 per 1000 posts, anything else will be expunged with severe prejudice!



So you're just nominate yourself to count all of them ?  

And that ain't my evil sis posting


----------



## Dissident (11 Mar 2008)

+2


----------



## armyvern (11 Mar 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> :-\
> 
> Sorry, Vern...my evil twin brother got a hold of my computer for a bit....bad evil twin brother!  :rage:
> 
> ...



Is your evil twin wearing an orange shirt!!?? Good thing that I like you ... or I'd have to go down below right quick and expunge your immediate response to my original post (which yes, I did expect ... just not from you!!).


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Mar 2008)

Sure, Yrys, I'll start right after I have a cold one, or three! :cheers:

Perhaps some responsible mod will move all the radio chatter stuff over to an appropriate thread, such as: "Sometimes you have to let your hair down a bit and have some fun..."  I'm still having to keep my evil twin brother away from my keyboard with a big stick...well, that and a can of hairspray with a Bic lighter....  :flame:

G2G


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Mar 2008)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Sure, Yrys, I'll start right after I have a cold one, or three! :cheers:
> 
> Perhaps some responsible mod will move all the radio chatter stuff over to an appropriate thread, such as: "Sometimes you have to let your hair down a bit and have some fun..."  I'm still having to keep my evil twin brother away from my keyboard with a big stick...well, that and a can of hairspray with a Bic lighter....  :flame:
> 
> ...


----------



## armyvern (11 Mar 2008)

Good2Golf,

You know darn well that you are not allowed to have fun around here!!  

Especially without sharing your beers with me.

ArmyVern
The Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Burrows (11 Mar 2008)

Don't make me come over there and "silence" you both for rowdy behaviour!


----------



## Mike Baker (11 Mar 2008)

I think that Vern has a good idea here. I admit, I have made a few '+1' posts on here, but, it is a lot better to post up more then just a +1, and actually say something. No more +1's for me, unless I back them up ^-^


----------



## Mike Bobbitt (11 Mar 2008)

Some statistics on the subject. There are:

40 posts that are a "+1" and nothing more
169 posts that start with +1 and are less than 20 characters long
628 posts that start with +1


----------



## Gunner98 (11 Mar 2008)

Isn't the +1 just a holdover from the 'on again/off again' ratings scale but without a running total for those ith a desire for regular ego stroking .  Hijack// - The closer I get to 1.000 posts the more reasons the Mods are finding to subtract from my total (just kidding).  Perhaps next a Mod will decide to delete all of the posts that begin or end with Rant or Hijack that do not appear in Radio Chatter. Rant off/


----------



## Mike Bobbitt (11 Mar 2008)

We're not talking about deleting _content_, we're talking about removing posts that don't add value to the conversation. That's been a standing (but not always observed) rule of Army.ca for years. Vern has simply stated that a "+1" post clearly falls into this "contentless" category, and is probably the purest, most easy to identify form.

A post that starts with +1 and goes on to make a valid point is clearly not contentless, and wouldn't be considered for deletion. My statistics above were for background information, not a hit list of how many posts are left to be removed.


----------



## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

Digression



			
				Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> My statistics above were for background information, not a hit list of how many posts are left to be removed.



I was surprised that you could make those kind of statistics. Is it with something more sophisticated then the "search" function ?


----------



## Mike Bobbitt (11 Mar 2008)

Yes, I ran a couple of simple SQL queries directly against the forum database. I do the same sort of thing to collect the "years of online time" stats, for example.


----------



## muskrat89 (11 Mar 2008)

> I was surprised that you could make those kind of statistics



You'd be surprised but what we already know, or what we can learn.......   muhahahahahahaha

 >


----------



## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> You'd be surprised but what we already know, or what we can learn.......   muhahahahahahaha
> 
> >



Weelll....

If you want to play at that...

*I* know that you have clan badge and tartan, a arm tatto, a leg tattoo, which I know what it is.

... and that you look like this more then that  




 >


----------



## muskrat89 (11 Mar 2008)

LOL - You shouldn't believe everything everyone tells you on the internet...   ;D


----------



## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

I believe everything and nothing...

It's not because my post could lead you to believe that I trusted what you writed me that I did  !


----------



## Gunner98 (11 Mar 2008)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> We're not talking about deleting _content_, we're talking about removing posts that don't add value to the conversation. That's been a standing (but not always observed) rule of Army.ca for years. Vern has simply stated that a "+1" post clearly falls into this "contentless" category, and is probably the purest, most easy to identify form.
> 
> A post that starts with +1 and goes on to make a valid point is clearly not contentless, and wouldn't be considered for deletion. My statistics above were for background information, not a hit list of how many posts are left to be removed.



Mike,

I should have added a smiley - because I was insinuating - not all Hijacks and Rants add to the topic under discussion. I was taking it to the extreme because I thought the door had been left open for further Mod chopping.  I have noticed, perhaps due to my increased time online, that a number of Topic Splits and clean-ups have been happening lately.  I am not sure, whether this is more frequent than in the past or just that I have been online to noticed them.


----------



## mover1 (11 Mar 2008)

I agree with Spring_Bok I actually thought the +1 posts explained lots WITHOUT wasting band width.  


(Luke 1:20)  he was struck both deaf and dumb, as appears from his friends making signs to him, (Luke 1:62) which they had no need to have done, could he have heard: he was struck with deafness, because he hearkened not to the angel's words; and with dumbness, because from the unbelief of his heart he objected to them. 

The mods are like the angels,  they can strike us deaf and dumb anytime they wish.  By either deleting posts, banning members, giving warnings. And its their right. This is their site. However I feel that deleting some posts no matter how frivolous  (+1) will take away from some of the debate that goes on.


----------



## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

mover1 said:
			
		

> (Luke 1:20)  he was struck both deaf and dumb, as appears from his friends making signs to him, (Luke 1:62) which they had no need to have done, could he have heard: he was struck with deafness, because he hearkened not to the angel's words; and with dumbness, because from the unbelief of his heart he objected to them.



To which I have to say "Huh?"

Could you comment a bit please...


----------



## Mike Bobbitt (11 Mar 2008)

mover1, I have to respectfully disagree. Adding a "+1" to a conversation does not add value to it. Sure, one or two are not too intrusive, and do show the "grass roots" support for a topic. Imagine however a very popular thread, where hundreds are in agreement. I'd prefer not to browse through pages of +1 posts to have to cherry pick the useful responses.

Likewise, if +1 is considered a full reply, would -1 be useful in showing disagreement? I'd rather know what aspect someone agrees/disagrees with, or have them push the debate a little bit further.

Mods as angels? I think it's time to formally introduce the team, clearly you haven't met them yet!


----------



## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

31 reply in 18 hours to "+1" post ...


----------



## armyvern (11 Mar 2008)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> Mods as angels? I think it's time to formally introduce the team, clearly you haven't met them yet!



Or he's failed to notice the sheer volume of highjacks I myself can add to almost any topic in an attempt to swing it towards chaps etc.  

I have deleted my own posts too!!  

I like to have fun every now and again, but I thank him for calling me an angel.  >

I like him!!  ;D


----------



## Rodahn (11 Mar 2008)

Sarcasm on "Censorship at it's finest" Sarcasm off










Edited for spelling/correct terminology....


----------



## Shamrock (11 Mar 2008)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> Likewise, if +1 is considered a full reply, would -1 be useful in showing disagreement? I'd rather know what aspect someone agrees/disagrees with, or have them push the debate a little bit further.



If there is a use for these +/-1 's (as evidenced by 600+ instances and concerns over "censorship"), why not use that idiotic +/- code for posters from a while back but for independent posts, something I had thought it was meant for anyhow.  Posts could be peer graded for validity, +1's fall into disuse, and individual posters don't feel harassed for getting a minus count in the low millions.  Obviously, this would take some poster restraint to mark a positive or negative on a statement they agree with, nut just vote rig for users they generally agree with.  And, some comments just don't need negatives: they're easily recognizable as moronic.


----------



## armyvern (11 Mar 2008)

WTF!!

Tell me please exactly how deleting a simple post that says NOTHING except 

+1

is censorship!!?? Are you people that put-out by having what essentianly amounts to a "head nod" being deleted?? I hate the guy who sits in the room and does nothing but nod his head in response (signifying agreement) to what someone has to say ... and from my point of view a +1 equates to a head nod.

Get a little bit of initiative folks -- I'm sure you could come up with something significant to say. My kids have bobble heads in their rooms. They irritate me too (and I KNOW that I'm not the only one on this site that is irritated by those bandwidth wasting "nods".

If I delete one of your +1, I have NOT censored you. YOU didn't say anything --- you nodded your head -- and I can't believe people are getting offended and yelling "censorship" because someone said "use your words".


----------



## FoverF (11 Mar 2008)

I see where the admin is coming from here, but I also feel that an indication of 'grassroots support' (as it was so aptly put) can add a lot of conteXT, if not so much conteNT, and this can be crucial. 

As an example, I'm going to take this somewhere controversial...
What about the RIP threads? 
That someone died may be news, and that there were many in and out of uniform to express their condolences goes without saying. I don't really think that pages and pages of "RIP" etc add a lot of _content_ per se to what is ostensibly a news story, but I could never suggest erasing them. Obviously this is not where the mods are going with this, but does seem to me to be a very close analogue. A lot of people want to express their support for something that's already been said. They aren't adding anything new, except their name/handle. But sometimes the support that is/isn't expressed is an important part of the story. 

On that note, I should just point out that I don't think I have a single +1 post to my name, and I don't actually think this will be a big deal. I think the mods already know where I'm coming from, and will delete stuff responsibly. 

This topic just tickled my 'freedom-of-speech' nerve, and that one will get me going every time. Sometimes all I want to say is "I agree with THAT guy."


----------



## Mike Bobbitt (11 Mar 2008)

It's really the 40 +1's that are the fly in the ointment, though admittedly a "+1 Shamrock" style post is really in the same category. The 600 odd +1 with explanation posts aren't included here, they're posts that likely add to the discussion, they just happen to start with "+1..." I only added those statistics for interest's sake. I guess I'm a number's guy... so long as it's not +1.


----------



## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

FoverF said:
			
		

> This topic just tickled my 'freedom-of-speech' nerve, and that one will get me going every time.





... and here I thought there was "speech" in 'freedom-of-speech'!

Anyhow, what make you think 'freedom-of-speech' apply to a private website ?

The fact that DS are sometimes moderately moderating trolls, giving them lloooong ropes before banning them ?


I'M SO GLAD I AIN'T A DS.

Thank you Mike B.  !


----------



## Mike Bobbitt (11 Mar 2008)

FoverF said:
			
		

> As an example, I'm going to take this somewhere controversial...
> What about the RIP threads?



IMO anyone who posts a +1 in a RIP thread deserves to have it deleted there too. In that context, I actually find it bordering on offensive instead of just useless. If someone can't take the time to write a one sentence condolence, then for the love of god, don't bother posting at all.

And let's be clear: we *are* only talking about deleting +1 posts here...  Not "RIP " or anything else. The line has been drawn at simple +1 posts so let's not theorize it out any further for the sake of argument.


----------



## Sig_Des (11 Mar 2008)

You know what, I've been hoping for a "+1" reply cleanup for a long time.

I make a statement. Somebody agrees with me, so they type two characters, and press Enter. Why do you agree with me? Do you agree with everything I said? If you agree with me, same as if you disagree with me, I'd like to know why.

I think of OPME's (or any school assignment really), where you are required to read an article, essay, whatever, and then respond. Can you imagine your mark if you just type "I agree".

You make a statement, you quantify that statement in a rational manner. +1 is not, IMHO, rational.

In addition, I want to be able to read actual responses to statements or arguments. Not 2 bloody pages of +1's.



			
				FoverF said:
			
		

> What about the RIP threads?
> That someone died may be news, and that there were many in and out of uniform to express their condolences goes without saying. I don't really think that pages and pages of "RIP" etc add a lot of _content_ per se to what is ostensibly a news story, but I could never suggest erasing them. Obviously this is not where the mods are going with this, but does seem to me to be a very close analogue.



I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. I don't believe "+1" and "RIP" is comparable. Theres' not much to add, other than additional articles or personal anecdotes, than a condolence here.

When you're at a wedding, you don't congratulate the bride and groom by explaining why you are congratulating them. You just say congrats.


----------



## armyvern (11 Mar 2008)

Yrys said:
			
		

> ... and here I thought there was "speech" in 'freedom-of-speech'!
> 
> Anyhow, what make you think 'freedom-of-speech' apply to a private website ?
> 
> ...



And, I was just thinking (and responding to a like PM) that if folks are feeling "so entitled" these days that they actually believe that my deleting their "+1" (to someones else words!!) is infringing on their OWN freedom of speech -- it's high time for me to retire.  :


----------



## Edward Campbell (11 Mar 2008)

Off topic UFI:

The +/- system is used by Canada, and several other countries, at major international fora.

Canadian delegations (which can, in some important UN member agency conferences, have 50± members) have ‘position papers’ (SECRET documents that give delegates the details of what we want to achieve and our views on the public proposals of other countries). Members are, usually, given a ‘cheat sheet’ which lists every single item, committee by committee and sub-working group by sub-working group that has a +/- code beside each item. The aim is to guide delegates who may, at the last moment, be sent to a working group or sub-committee or whatever when the appropriate person (who knows the file) is unavailable. The cheat sheet codes are:

+2 = speak for and vote for the proposal or motion
+1 = say nothing at all but vote for the proposal or motion
  0 = say nothing and do nothing, but show up to show the flag
-1 = say nothing but vote against the proposal or motion
-2  = speak against and vote against the motion

Suffice to say it is very, very rare to find anyone but a SME and/or a responsible official at a +2 or -2 items, but, once, about 20 years ago, I found myself ‘free’ at a major international conference and the head-of-delegation hustled me off to a meeting of the budget committee with a five second verbal brief and a *-2* position on an important issue. I tried to speed read the lengthy written brief but ‘Canada’ came up too early in the proceedings so I switched on my mic, took a deep breath and said something like, “Thank you, Chair; Canada regrets that the proposal by my esteemed friend from the _Peace-loving Peoples’ Republic of Wherever_ is unacceptable.” A few minutes later when the Chair said, “All opposed” I waved my yellow CAN sign. I left the meeting still unsure of the problem we had just ‘solved’ (to Canada’s satisfaction, if I remember correctly) but in the head-of-delegation’s good books all the same.


----------



## Shamrock (11 Mar 2008)

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> And let's be clear: we *are* only talking about deleting +1 posts here...  Not "RIP " or anything else. The line has been drawn at simple +1 posts so let's not theorize it out any further for the sake of argument.



Thank goodness for that.  If posts were being deleted for being void of intellectual content, my post count would be in the negatives.


----------



## FoverF (11 Mar 2008)

> And let's be clear: we are only talking about deleting +1 posts here...  Not "RIP Salute" or anything else. The line has been drawn at simple +1 posts so let's not theorize it out any further for the sake of argument.



Hence why I said



> Obviously this is not where the mods are going with this,... nd I don't actually think this will be a big deal. I think the mods already know where I'm coming from, and will delete stuff responsibly.



And I'm certainly not one to go about trumpeting what 'rights' Mike B does and doesn't _have_ to give us when we play in his house. But what  he does and doesn't _let _ us do in his house has an impact on whether or not I want to hang out here. While I obviously don't feel the need to say '+1' very often, I'd rather be allowed to say it than not, that's all.


----------



## Michael OLeary (11 Mar 2008)

FoverF said:
			
		

> And I'm certainly not one to go about trumpeting what 'rights' Mike B does and doesn't _have_ to give us when we play in his house. But what  he does and doesn't _let _ us do in his house has an impact on whether or not I want to hang out here or not. While I obviously don't feel the need to say '+1' very often, I'd rather be allowed to say it than not, that's all.



No-one has yet said you can't "say it", but you are being warned that it may not be archived in perpetuity.  If you have something concrete to contribute that furthers the discussion, you may have higher expectations of your grandchildren finding it in an internet archive some day.

If you really feel the need to ensure your "+1" 's are all being saved and want to have more control, try this, or this (or any number of similar sites).


----------



## fbr2o75 (11 Mar 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> No-one has yet said you can't "say it", but you are being warned that it may not be archived in perpetuity.  If you have something concrete to contribute that furthers the discussion, you may have higher expectations of your grandchildren finding it in an internet archive some day.
> 
> If you really feel the need to ensure your "+1" 's are all being saved and want to have more control, try this, or this (or any number of similar sites).



So, because he doesnt agree with you and has a differing opion, he should leave??


----------



## Yrys (11 Mar 2008)

fbr2o75 said:
			
		

> So, because he doesnt agree with you and has a differing opion, he should leave??



OR he can stay AND created another web site to ensure that every post is keep ...


----------



## Michael OLeary (11 Mar 2008)

fbr2o75 said:
			
		

> So, because he doesnt agree with you and has a differing opion, he should leave??



No, I did not say that.

He is fully welcome to create any website of his own choosing and to choose how it is run so that every single post he collects in his own server space is saved.  He has that freedom of choice.


----------



## George Wallace (11 Mar 2008)

fbr2o75 said:
			
		

> So, because he doesnt agree with you and has a differing opion, he should leave??



 :

That option is open for him.  If there is a site that thrives on "+1" posts perhaps he is on the wrong site here.

Of course, if people want to be taken more seriously as "professionals", a more educated pontification could be made.   ;D


----------



## Mike Bobbitt (11 Mar 2008)

Ok folks we're letting this get a little overblown. In post #1 of this thread, Vern said she deleted some +1 posts and might delete more if she feels they don't add value to the ongoing discussion. It's a simple as that. Nobody's cutting into freedom om speech, nobody's kicking anyone off of Army.ca. In fact we're not even removing posts with any real content. It's a simple administrative clean-up, and to make more out of it is ridiculous. Similar threads are merged, duplicates removed, and dead-end topics locked every day here, it's all part of the ongoing maintenance. This is no different.

I understand that some might be trying to feel out the "edge" of the issue by raising theoretical points to discuss. That's a valid approach if the intent or extent was unclear. Let me reiterate though:

*+1 posts that provide no additional content or value may be deleted*

That's the sum total of the issue here. No need for people to get up in arms about free speech or threats to move on. If there are truly concerns with the plan as outlined above, I'm more than happy to listen to and address them. Otherwise, let's please not stretch this into something it's not.

Thanks all


Mike


----------



## McG (22 Mar 2008)

If it is possible, the popcorn smilie post adds even less than a "+1" post (because, while useless in the long run) at least the "+1" gives a real time opinion in support of something).  Expect posts with nothing but one or two guys eating popcorn to be treated as per a "+1" and remember:





			
				Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> When someone feels this smiley is appropriate for a thread, they should be hitting the report to mod button and not make any posts.


----------

