# Review sought after officer kills BC woman in New Brunswick



## jacksparrow (5 Jun 2020)

https://www.castanet.net/news/Canada/301947/Review-sought-after-officer-kills-BC-woman-in-New-Brunswick



> A 26-year-old Indigenous woman from British Columbia has been shot and killed by police in northwestern New Brunswick.
> 
> The Edmundston Police Force says it received a request to check on a woman's well-being at an apartment building early Thursday morning.
> 
> ...


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## Kilted (5 Jun 2020)

I think that it is pretty straightforward to say that this was a justified use of force.


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## Ironman118 (5 Jun 2020)

Happens all the time unfortunately. Welfare check was probably called in by a neighbour or someone she knew, clearly has MHA issues.


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## CBH99 (5 Jun 2020)

The issue I have with this is the way the media chooses to report it.

And I realize racism & police heavy handedness is front & center in the media right now.  But for a long time, I've had an issue with the way the media reports these types of events.  

I personally think it either shows institutional racism on behalf of the media, or perhaps unintentionally (or worse, low key intentionally) stokes the racism fires and keeps the issue far more alive than it needs to be.



Why mention race?  It has literally nothing to do with the situation that occurred.

A woman had the police go check on her, as someone called the police about her behaviour.  In checking up on her, she had a knife, and a situation happened.


Why not just report 'A woman was killed in this incident, blah blah blah.'   Why mention "indigenous woman"?  Doesn't matter in the slightest.  

And the officer's actions were clearly the result of a weapon being produced by someone who was experiencing some form of mental health episode.  By mentioning race, even in passing, it creates an optic that is unfair and unnecessary.




If I'm experiencing some form of mental health episode, and someone calls the police to go check on me, I produce a knife and get into a physical altercation with the officer, and he ends up shooting me?  That's an officer safety issue, not a racism issue.  Even if the officer is a different skin colour, it has nothing to do with the situation that I clearly caused.   :facepalm:   :2c:


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## Kat Stevens (5 Jun 2020)

All true. However. If the press didn't report the woman's ethnicity at the time of the incident, you can bet the family of the deceased would have upon notification. Then we have "Racist NB Cops Cover Up Murder of BC Aboriginal Woman". Lose/lose situation for cops when any mixed race shooting incident occurs.


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## captloadie (6 Jun 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Why mention race?  It has literally nothing to do with the situation that occurred.
> 
> If I'm experiencing some form of mental health episode, and someone calls the police to go check on me, I produce a knife and get into a physical altercation with the officer, and he ends up shooting me?  That's an officer safety issue, not a racism issue.  Even if the officer is a different skin colour, it has nothing to do with the situation that I clearly caused.   :facepalm:   :2c:



First, I'm not calling you out personally, but I'm highlighting why these sentiments show the majority of us don't get it. Why we don't know for certain, there is a high degree of probability that race did play a large factor. It is one of the driving factors for the protests in the streets going on these days. There is an learned bias that becomes ingrained in people when they deal with different slices of society, partly from personal experience, and partly from institutional bias and stereotyping. The officer involved here was aware that he was dealing with an individual with potential mental health issues. From accounts I've read, he was also aware of the ethnicity of the individual. Did that make him hyper vigilant?  Did he think he was going into a "bad situation" with someone who was potentially under the influence of drugs/alcohol? I am not saying the officer was racist. I'm not arguing his actions weren't appropriate. I'm saying that if he had been asked to do a well being check on a 22 year old white college student, he may have prepared, and reacted differently (but that is a what if game).

Let's put this situation in a different light. There are thousands of current and ex-CAF members with mental health issues. There have been many who have taken their own lives, mostly on their own without (physically) hurting others. But what if more of these suicides manifested in a way that were violent to those around them, and local law enforcement. Do you not think this would create a bias that would eventually lead to police to responding differently, every time they encountered a CAF member, be it responding to a wellness check, a domestic dispute call, or a even a simple traffic stop? When it became individuals from our community who were being negatively affected, would we be so quick to say the individual's background isn't important to the story?


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## Cloud Cover (6 Jun 2020)

No matter which way this is examined, it’s a tragedy.
For the officer: Mere seconds to react, protect yourself and the public from a violent, armed attacker. He has every much right as her to live. 
For the family: a mother’s unwell child is dead, shot by the police defending themselves from a violent surprise attack.

For society: another police involved death. Misinformation, fake news, outrage, anarchy, protests, lawsuits, claims of racism and bias.  

I question whether this would be reported differently had she come at him with a long rifle. 

This media discussion about two officer patrols. That is a city luxury. In rural and small town Canada it is never going to happen except in very rare instances. Especially in an era where politicians are being pressured to defund police.


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## MilEME09 (6 Jun 2020)

The media is swinging this story heavily and it disgusts me personally, headlines and stories that leave out the part about the knife until half way through the article. Then go on about how good of a person they were, etc etc... if a cop was killed or injured we wouldn't be sympathetic.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Jun 2020)

CBC story link



> In a statement, the Edmundston Police Force said officers were called to do a wellness check on a woman in an apartment in the city. When they arrived, she emerged with a knife and attacked an officer, Insp. Steve Robinson told reporters on Thursday.
> 
> "He had no choice but to defend himself," Robinson said.
> Moore, a 26-year-old Indigenous woman, died at the scene.



Then there is this idiotic  :blah:



> "I'm pissed. I'm outraged," Indigenous Services Minister Marc Miller said Friday in Ottawa.
> Miller said that he watched several incidents involving police and Indigenous people yesterday in what he described as "disgust."
> "I don't understand how someone dies during a wellness check? Police serve Canadians and Indigenous peoples of Canada — not the opposite. These independent inquires need to bring justice," said Miller.



How about attacking the police with a knife?  That might be a small clue.   :

"need to bring justice"....so, guilty until proven innocent?  Something something Charter...

Why were they there?



> She believes that a man who dated Moore called police from Montreal or Toronto to ask to check on her well-being because he feared she was being harassed by someone.



Tragic, for certain. I don't expect much of a different outcome if I ever have police knock on my door, and I got out with a knife and attack them.


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## Haggis (6 Jun 2020)

Kilted said:
			
		

> I think that it is pretty straightforward to say that this was a justified use of force.



Really?  

Did she threaten the officer?  Herself? Others?  Did the officer have time and distance on his side?  Did he have cover?  Was there a barrier between him and the subject?  Were there other options he could've used including containment/withdrawal?

Were you there?


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Jun 2020)

We don't even know if the officer was aware of her ethnic background?


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## brihard (6 Jun 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Really?
> 
> Did she threaten the officer?  Herself? Others?  Did the officer have time and distance on his side?  Did he have cover?  Was there a barrier between him and the subject?  Were there other options he could've used including containment/withdrawal?
> 
> Were you there?



All things that will be considered- but bear in mind that tactical repositioning is one of several potential tactical options. Even if available but not utilized as an option, is does not make a use of deadly force in the fact of reasonably perceived death or grievous bodily harm unjustified. More simply, there isn’t a ‘Dury to retreat’. If someone is advancing on you with a knife (note that I don’t know what happened in this case, but it seems a plausible inference from what is reported), you run out of time and options VERY fast.

This will get fully investigated, and hopefully the ‘what happened?’ will get answered.

I have three friends/colleagues off the top of my head that have had to shoot and kill someone on duty. It’s not something anyone starts shift wanting to have happen, and it’s generally the worst experience of someone’s life.


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## Haggis (6 Jun 2020)

Brihard said:
			
		

> This will get fully investigated, and hopefully the ‘what happened?’ will get answered.



My point, Brihard, was that Kilted's comment was a Olympic class leap to a conclusion given no knowledge of the situational factors that led to the use of lethal force.


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## ballz (6 Jun 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> The issue I have with this is the way the media chooses to report it.
> 
> And I realize racism & police heavy handedness is front & center in the media right now.  But for a long time, I've had an issue with the way the media reports these types of events.
> 
> ...



I prefer the press to report all of the available facts, and let me sort out which ones are relevant, not relevant, etc. Last thing I need is the media *hiding* facts, sounds like you want them to hide facts to keep the populace ignorant of something that might upset them, there are countries that do that I don't think you'd want to live there.


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## ballz (6 Jun 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> My point, Brihard, was that Kilted's comment was a Olympic class leap to a conclusion given no knowledge of the situational factors that led to the use of lethal force.



Agreed and agreed with your original response to him fully.

When it comes to the presence of a knife, it doesn't take much to put me on the side of police being able to protect themselves, and in this case I lean towards "nothing to see here folks." 

But from the little info available here it's ridiculous to make a conclusion one way (as Kilted has demonstrated) or the other (as the Minister has demonstrated).


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## mariomike (6 Jun 2020)

Ironman118 said:
			
		

> Happens all the time unfortunately. Welfare check was probably called in by a neighbour or someone she knew, clearly has MHA issues.



Wellness checks are very common. I read of one in Maryland that ended badly. Paramedics responded to a home after the guy's brother called 9-1-1, because he couldn't reach his sibling, who suffered from diabetes. After loudly announcing themselves, the crew forced entry through the front door, before police arrived, because they believed it involved a medical emergency. 

As the door swung open, the guy opened up with a handgun. One paramedic died at the scene. His partner was wounded.


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## brihard (6 Jun 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> My point, Brihard, was that Kilted's comment was a Olympic class leap to a conclusion given no knowledge of the situational factors that led to the use of lethal force.



Agreed, generally. While on the surface it sounds quite possibly to have been justified, no conclusion can be meaningfully reached based on only the info available.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Jun 2020)

Unfortunately there's examples in Canada of police being "economical with the truth" about their behavior what happens during events like these.

There's also people who are drug addicted, have a history of abuse and violence, who attack police and the attackers family immediately rush forward to talk about how good little jonny or jill is and how they would never hurt a fly.

We have a demand to know RFN culture. Police can be (are?) at a disadvantage because they can't just come right out and defend themselves or talk about what happened.

Instead photo ops taking a knee or pumping fists in the air our leaders need to get every police officer in Canada a body cam.


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## mariomike (6 Jun 2020)

My opinion only here: You've got to leave total authority in these situations with the cop on the street.

It's her, or his, life on the line. Not ours.


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## Ironman118 (7 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Instead photo ops taking a knee or pumping fists in the air our leaders need to get every police officer in Canada a body cam.



I work for a Police Service and unfortunately this isn't as easy as everyone makes it seem. Toronto PS had been the pilot project for body cams here in Ontario for awhile, the recent events with the woman who fell off her balcony trying to escape police just expedited the timeline for that it seems.. There's a huge back end that goes into it, you literally need an entire unit dedicated to the storing and retrieval of the footage, as well as the huge tech end of the equation - storing terabytes upon terabytes of footage for court proceedings. I am all for body cams though, I know a lot of people who would be able to do their jobs with a lot more confidence with them..I don't think the body cams are going to tell the story that the media wants to hear though, in fact probably quite the opposite..


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Jun 2020)

I agree....the public would be in for a rude awakening when all those pre-concieved notions go out the window.  When we brought in cameras to record ICIT activations I was skeptical, but after watching the recording of a practice activation, I was sold on it.  My written words did no justice to the threat/scare factor that the practice inmate was giving off.  There was no doubt that an outsider would go from reading our reports and asking "why did you do that?" to "how did you guys even go in there?".


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## Jarnhamar (7 Jun 2020)

* RCMP watchdog's misconduct reports caught in limbo, stalling their release* 

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/rcmp-watchdogs-misconduct-reports-caught-in-limbo-stalling-their-release/ar-BB159mrt

Interesting read about the misconduct complaint process. 
At the end of the day if the top RCMP member says 'don't care' then it's case closed.


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## Eaglelord17 (7 Jun 2020)

Ironman118 said:
			
		

> I work for a Police Service and unfortunately this isn't as easy as everyone makes it seem. Toronto PS had been the pilot project for body cams here in Ontario for awhile, the recent events with the woman who fell off her balcony trying to escape police just expedited the timeline for that it seems.. There's a huge back end that goes into it, you literally need an entire unit dedicated to the storing and retrieval of the footage, as well as the huge tech end of the equation - storing terabytes upon terabytes of footage for court proceedings. I am all for body cams though, I know a lot of people who would be able to do their jobs with a lot more confidence with them..I don't think the body cams are going to tell the story that the media wants to hear though, in fact probably quite the opposite..



Body Cams are a amazing thing. They usually work in the officers favour. Like that one woman who claimed she was sexually assaulted by the cop, and it turns out she offered to have sex with him if he let her go, and he didn't do that or anything remotely wrong. 

They also catch the bad apples on tape, planting of evidence, excessive use of force, corruption. Having a camera on everyone makes things much safer for all involved.


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## Cloud Cover (7 Jun 2020)

Of course they will tell the whole story, at which point people will be screaming for them to be removed or switched off.


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## Retired AF Guy (7 Jun 2020)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I agree....the public would be in for a rude awakening when all those pre-concieved notions go out the window.  When we brought in cameras to record ICIT activations I was skeptical, but after watching the recording of a practice activation, I was sold on it.  My written words did no justice to the threat/scare factor that the practice inmate was giving off.  There was no doubt that an outsider would go from reading our reports and asking "why did you do that?" to "how did you guys even go in there?".



"ICIT activations." Is this the moving of a troublesome inmate who is surrounded by guards and videotaped whenever they are moved?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Jun 2020)

Yes  sorry.  In Ontario it stands for Institutional Crisis Intervention Team. Anything from riots to moving problematic inmates.


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## Haggis (8 Jun 2020)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Body Cams are a amazing thing.



The PM seems to think so, now, too.  He has raised the issue with the RCMP Commissioner already and will raise it again with the Premiers later this week.


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## Kat Stevens (8 Jun 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The PM seems to think so, now, too.  He has raised the issue with the RCMP Commissioner already and will raise it again with the Premiers later this week.



My ever so tiny cynical side can't help but add "at least until they don't show what he wants them to show".


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## Ironman118 (8 Jun 2020)

Target Up said:
			
		

> My ever so tiny cynical side can't help but add "at least until they don't show what he wants them to show".



It's actually kind of funny because here we have protesters that are yelling for Police to be equipped for body cams in just the last week...we've been wanting them for YEARS...so thanks, I guess, for speeding things up.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Jun 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The PM seems to think so, now, too.  He has raised the issue with the RCMP Commissioner already and will raise it again with the Premiers later this week.



I don't body cameras will really fix anything if misconduct investigations (with video) still take 10 months or years to investigate.


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## Ironman118 (8 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I don't body cameras will really fix anything if misconduct investigations (with video) still take 10 months or years to investigate.



SIU investigations / misconduct are completely different than a woman accusing an officer of sexually assaulting her and being able to check the camera and immediately see that her whole story is fake - and in full context..not a 5 second snippet of "blue man bad", as an example. Especially if the media is accusing 7 guys of throwing a woman off a balcony and protests are imminent. You could release the footage and inform the public that it didn't happen, avoiding deaths, property damage, etc.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local/texas-news/charges-possible-for-woman-who-falsely-accused-dps-trooper-of-sex-assault-da-says/287-557630062


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## Jarnhamar (8 Jun 2020)

[quote author=Ironman118]
SIU investigations / misconduct are completely different than a woman accusing an officer of sexually assaulting her and being able to check the camera and immediately see that her whole story is fake - 
[/quote]

Shit ya. Getting accused of inappropriate (or criminal) behavior is a constant threat for police I'd guess. Shitty for cops to operate in that environment 24/7. Cameras will probably save a lot of tax payer dollars and careers too I bet.


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## lenaitch (9 Jun 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> Of course they will tell the whole story, at which point people will be screaming for them to be removed or switched off.



And that kind of raises an interesting point of the policy that will surround their use; i.e. when they need to be activated.  The noisy voices say 'always' because the police can't be trusted, ignoring some very obvious concerns of privacy.  I

It will be interesting to see how they perform hung on the outside of a Mountie's arctic park in February in Iqaluit.


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## Haggis (9 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> The noisy voices say 'always' because the police can't be trusted, ignoring some very obvious concerns of privacy.


 Not to mention the data storage requirements from filming and archiving 12 hours of boring one-officer patrols in the middle of nowhere.  Plus there is the privacy risk of inadvertently recording an officer's lunchtime telephone call with their lover or innocuous recording of identifiable bystanders while the officer get a snack or recording their PIN as they use an ATM. 



			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see how they perform hung on the outside of a Mountie's arctic parka in February in Iqaluit.


  Probably the same as they work in Fairbanks, Alaska. We're not the only nation to have cops in the hinterland.


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## blacktriangle (9 Jun 2020)

What kind of data retention period is typically applied to footage from body cams? 

Is the footage actively reviewed on an on-going basis? Or is it only queried if required to support an investigation or allegation?


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## Haggis (9 Jun 2020)

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> What kind of data retention period is typically applied to footage from body cams?
> 
> Is the footage actively reviewed on an on-going basis? Or is it only queried if required to support an investigation or allegation?



The short answer is that it depends on the jurisdiction.  The Privacy Commissioner has already issued guidance on the use of body cameras in Canada. Because body cameras capture personal information, the retention period is left up to the provinces and, in some cases, governed under municipal by-laws.


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## lenaitch (9 Jun 2020)

I would think a police service's retention of camera records will mimic their policy for communications recordings, which is generally in the order of 2 to 3 years but, as mentioned, it will be local policy unless the province steps in.  Any video linked to a particular investigation will be copied and added to the case file and form part of the disclosure package if charges are involved.

I can't imagine any useful purpose purpose of paying somebody to sit and watch hours of recorded video with no particular goal.

I am aware that police in chillier climes (Calgary) operate body cameras, although not Fairbanks AK PD - thanks for that.  Must be tough on batteries.   I wonder how they deal with fogging when moving from cold to warm.


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## mariomike (9 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> I am aware that police in chillier climes (Calgary) operate body cameras,



Regarding that,

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk005ccsG33C-0gy8_lFgBY5oQthWag%3A1591710368537&ei=oJLfXomxINqqytMP8JOvoAM&q=%22calgary+police%22+%22body+cameras%22&oq=%22calgary+police%22+%22body+cameras%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIGCAAQFhAeMgYIABAWEB4yBggAEBYQHjIGCAAQFhAeOgQIABBHOgYIABAHEB46CAgAEAgQBxAeOgYIABANEB46CAgAEAgQDRAeOgQIABANOgUIABDEAjoGCAAQCBAeUIcmWPhMYOJQaABwAXgAgAGpAYgBhAiSAQMwLjeYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiJgeiY7_TpAhValXIEHfDJCzQQ4dUDCAs&uact=5#spf=1591710381227


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## blacktriangle (9 Jun 2020)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The short answer is that it depends on the jurisdiction.  The Privacy Commissioner has already issued guidance on the use of body cameras in Canada. Because body cameras capture personal information, the retention period is left up to the provinces and, in some cases, governed under municipal by-laws.



Interesting, thank you. 

Reviewing the footage is ultimately a data problem. I'm not suggesting that someone needs to sit down and watch every minute. Technology could potentially be leveraged to bring pertinent footage to the attention of a reviewing officer/analyst. It might also serve to deter conduct that is less than professional.


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## OldSolduer (9 Jun 2020)

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Interesting, thank you.
> 
> Reviewing the footage is ultimately a data problem. I'm not suggesting that someone needs to sit down and watch every minute. Technology could potentially be leveraged to bring pertinent footage to the attention of a reviewing officer/analyst. It might also serve to deter conduct that is less than professional.



Body cams also will show who the idiots are that are yelling obscenities at the police, baiting them and perhaps even assaulting them.


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## mariomike (9 Jun 2020)

Nothing new about body cameras in emergency services,
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1280&bih=641&sxsrf=ALeKk004S1Df7PvzViGLxPONqiK_PHGHtg%3A1591726271008&ei=v9DfXr0RgbO0BseXgdgP&q=ems+body+camera&oq=ems+body+camera&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQDFAAWABgkVhoAHAAeACAAQCIAQCSAQCYAQCqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwj97Nm3qvXpAhWBGc0KHcdLAPs4ChDh1QMICw#spf=1591726284950


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## Petard (9 Jun 2020)

The media certainly leaned into what seemed topical about this story, but not helping was Inspector Robinson laughing while responding to a question about it.
https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/this-was-racially-motivated-says-grandmother-of-tofino-woman-shot-and-killed-by-n-b-police-1.4969770

Who knows why he let out that chuckle, but because of it, and the nature of the reporting, I expect there'll be suspicion about any investigation.
I wonder how much language might have been an issue, but am skeptical much will be known in the end regardless, other than it was tragic


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## Ironman118 (9 Jun 2020)

Petard said:
			
		

> The media certainly leaned into what seemed topical about this story, but not helping was Inspector Robinson laughing while responding to a question about it.
> https://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/this-was-racially-motivated-says-grandmother-of-tofino-woman-shot-and-killed-by-n-b-police-1.4969770
> 
> Who knows why he let out that chuckle, but because of it, and the nature of the reporting, I expect there'll be suspicion about any investigation.
> I wonder how much language might have been an issue, but am skeptical much will be known in the end regardless, other than it was tragic



From that video.. "Why couldn't they have used a tazer on her?"

This I actually applaud the officer for not going for, because the chance of a tazer landing on a moving target, both prongs landing, and having it penetrate clothing is slim to none. I've seen some pretty accurate tazer shots on moving targets but its not a high percentage. If he drew his tazer he'd probably be pretty cut up, maybe dead. Probably more viable to have a tazer if you had a backing officer there, one with tazer, one with sidearm..but whether or not you get a back for welfare checks depends per agency. People need to realize that it doesnt matter what color the person is holding the knife coming at you...just that there WAS a knife and it could kill the officer responding to the call. Here's an idea, when someone identifies themselves as a Police Officer, maybe don't grab a weapon and immediately come at them.  :facepalm:

Basically the same situation in this article, but no country-wide coverage as much as this one with the Indigenous woman is getting. I think people need to ask themselves why, because the only differing factor is the race of the person.

https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/news-story/9794913-st-catharines-man-holding-bread-knife-dies-from-injuries-after-being-shot-by-police/


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## captloadie (9 Jun 2020)

This may be a silly question of LEO members here on the forum, but I'm curious to know something. 
Are you taught, like CAF members, that the use of your firearm is for lethal force? That when you draw your weapon with the intention to use it, the training is to aim for centre of mass?
I think many in the public have a believe that police officers are taught to shoot to disable, not kill, perhaps stemming from too many fictional tv shows.


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## Haggis (9 Jun 2020)

captloadie said:
			
		

> This may be a silly question of LEO members here on the forum, but I'm curious to know something.
> Are you taught, like CAF members, that the use of your firearm is for lethal force?


  Simply put, yes. But the presence of your firearm can de-escalate a situation as well.



			
				captloadie said:
			
		

> That when you draw your weapon with the intention to use it, the training is to aim for centre of mass?


  Yes.  You aim for the centre of available mass.



			
				captloadie said:
			
		

> I think many in the public have a believe that police officers are taught to shoot to disable, not kill, perhaps stemming from too many fictional TV shows.



Hollywood hasn't done us any favours.  The other thing Hollywood fails to portray is round accountability which is why many agencies, including mine, are moving to a qualification standard where you need 100% hits on target.  A miss is a potential lawsuit in the real world.


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## CBH99 (9 Jun 2020)

Ironman118 said:
			
		

> Here's an idea, when someone identifies themselves as a Police Officer, maybe don't grab a weapon and immediately come at them.  :facepalm:
> 
> Basically the same situation in this article, but no country-wide coverage as much as this one with the Indigenous woman is getting. I think people need to ask themselves why, because the only differing factor is the race of the person.
> 
> https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/news-story/9794913-st-catharines-man-holding-bread-knife-dies-from-injuries-after-being-shot-by-police/





Couldn't agree more!!

Race has nothing to do with it.  If your own friends call the police on you, and you turn around and immediately attack them with a knife...chances are, your going to get shot.  Or tazed.  Or taken down hard.  Simple cause & effect... race is irrelevant.

How do so many people actually believe their own nonsense?  The shooting was 'racially motivated'?  How so?

Her own friends called the police on her.  Officer shows up.  She attacks officer with a knife.  She ends up dead.   Don't see how race plays a factor in the slightest...


Basic lesson.  If the police have come to chat with you about behaving like a dummy, and you attack them with a deadly weapon, you get whats coming to you.  Please don't cry to the media about it.  <end of vent>


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## daftandbarmy (9 Jun 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Couldn't agree more!!
> 
> Race has nothing to do with it.  If your own friends call the police on you, and you turn around and immediately attack them with a knife...chances are, your going to get shot.  Or tazed.  Or taken down hard.  Simple cause & effect... race is irrelevant.
> 
> ...




And, luckily, the Justice system is quite separate from the court of public opinion....


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## Haggis (9 Jun 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And, luckily, the Justice system is quite separate from the court of public opinion....



It is now.  Hopefully that continues to hold true given recent events.


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## Ironman118 (9 Jun 2020)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I think many in the public have a believe that police officers are taught to shoot to disable, not kill, perhaps stemming from too many fictional tv shows.



Shoot until the threat is eliminated...unless you're this sniper from Columbus..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhECHpArQSg&t


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## Jarnhamar (9 Jun 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Couldn't agree more!!
> 
> Race has nothing to do with it.  If your own friends call the police on you, and you turn around and immediately attack them with a knife...chances are, your going to get shot.  Or tazed.  Or taken down hard.  Simple cause & effect... race is irrelevant.
> 
> ...




Gladue sentencing principle recognizes that Aboriginal Peoples face racism and systemic discrimination in and out of the criminal law system, and attempts to deal, with the crisis of over representation /inequities of Aboriginal Peoples in custody, to the extent possible, through changing how judges sentence. 

Should Canadian police adopt a similar approach (or recognition) when responding to calls with First Nation suspects to account for mental health, higher than average suicide rates, alcohol and drug use stats?


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## lenaitch (9 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Gladue sentencing principle recognizes that Aboriginal Peoples face racism and systemic discrimination in and out of the criminal law system, and attempts to deal, with the crisis of over representation /inequities of Aboriginal Peoples in custody, to the extent possible, through changing how judges sentence.
> 
> Should Canadian police adopt a similar approach (or recognition) when responding to calls with First Nation suspects to account for mental health, higher than average suicide rates, alcohol and drug use stats?



Are you thinking about things like exercise of discretion or diversion programs?  At the response level, police often have limited information about the circumstances and limited time to consider it; courts have the advantage of a calm assessment of all available information, professional pre-sentence reports, assessments, etc.  Discretion is always an option under the appropriate circumstance and diversion programs can be useful, if available.  Courts also get to register society's sanction of the act, however they temper that through sentencing.

We have many FN people around here that traditional Anglo or French-Canadian names and look similar to me (white guy).

Of course, non of this matters when it is a matter of officer or public safety.  Why somebody is brandishing a knife, who/what they are or why they are doing it, are moot points.  One of the squirelliest battles I got into in my career was with a FN female who weighed about 100lb.  I later found that she had a knife in her coat pocket but couldn't remove it because it was caught in the ripped lining.


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## Jarnhamar (9 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Are you thinking about things like exercise of discretion or diversion programs?



I'm not sure. Mostly just thinking out loud. I'll have a read of those though thanks.


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## CBH99 (10 Jun 2020)

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Are you thinking about things like exercise of discretion or diversion programs?  At the response level, police often have limited information about the circumstances and limited time to consider it; courts have the advantage of a calm assessment of all available information, professional pre-sentence reports, assessments, etc.  Discretion is always an option under the appropriate circumstance and diversion programs can be useful, if available.  Courts also get to register society's sanction of the act, however they temper that through sentencing.
> 
> We have many FN people around here that traditional Anglo or French-Canadian names and look similar to me (white guy).
> 
> Of course, non of this matters when it is a matter of officer or public safety.  Why somebody is brandishing a knife, who/what they are or why they are doing it, are moot points.  One of the squirelliest battles I got into in my career was with a FN female who weighed about 100lb.  I later found that she had a knife in her coat pocket but couldn't remove it because it was caught in the ripped lining.




Same, when it comes to matters of physical violence/weapons/behaviour, race is irrelevant.  

Pretty sure the hardest punch I ever took (and I took 2) was from a 5'2" FN girl.  That girl could HIT!!  


When dealing with family matters, language barriers, cultural customs (knowing what a Kirpan is, for example) - things like that...race & culture are important.

Holding a knife & attacking a cop?  Please don't pull the race card.


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## OldSolduer (10 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Gladue sentencing principle recognizes that Aboriginal Peoples face racism and systemic discrimination in and out of the criminal law system, and attempts to deal, with the crisis of over representation /inequities of Aboriginal Peoples in custody, to the extent possible, through changing how judges sentence.
> 
> Should Canadian police adopt a similar approach (or recognition) when responding to calls with First Nation suspects to account for mental health, higher than average suicide rates, alcohol and drug use stats?



The Gladue report has created nothing other than a two tiered justice industry. It also smacks of racism - African Canadians, Asian Canadians etc don't get the same treatment.


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