# Gas training in CF?



## Hansol (31 Oct 2004)

Does the Canadian Army do a similar excercise  in regards to the American Army gas test, where they put you in a room with CS gas, have you take your mask off, recite your name, rank, SIN, etc etc or such? I haven't heard anything, so figured I would ask. Cheers -Cameron


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## Hansol (31 Oct 2004)

nevermind, I found a good thread through a search. so no worries. What I am wondering though is how far into your training you get to experience it. Is it at BMQ, SQ, or MOC? Cheers -Cameron


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## Fusaki (31 Oct 2004)

Its on your BMQ, then you have to redo the training every so often.


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## NavyGrunt (31 Oct 2004)

in the Navy I did it on BMQ and NETP(our SQ), and my QL......Im all gassed out....


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## aesop081 (31 Oct 2004)

I've done it every year for the last 11 years.....how's that for being gased out !!!


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## axeman (31 Oct 2004)

16 years . gassed each year  in the last few occasionally more then once a year.. netp and bmq meh ....  do it enough and you kinda get used to it . not that its a good think but it sure makes the cops think when they toss the canisters and you stand there and look at all the ppl and wonder why they are crying...


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## arctictern (31 Oct 2004)

A friend of mine how completed his basic recently said when they got gassed there faces were dripping with tears and snot.


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## NavyGrunt (31 Oct 2004)

Daryl J said:
			
		

> A friend of mine how completed his basic recently said when they got gassed there faces were dripping with tears and snot.


LOL
YEAH

When I walked out of the gas hut I walked over to the water bin where you wash your hands off and started to wash my hands off...and then without thinking I plunged my head in....needless to say I was in a world of hurt as 80 other recruits had just finished washing off their CS gas covered hands.....and my shaved head added insult to injury on that day......

The jog back cooled everything off....


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## scm77 (31 Oct 2004)

I think he means it made it worse because alot of other people had used the water already.


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## Da_man (31 Oct 2004)

During my BMQ people were telling me the gas chamber was horrible.   At the end it turned out I wanted to do it again.


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## Stomper (31 Oct 2004)

Hehe, remember to clean the straw on your gas mask out after the gas huts. I forgot  Then, a little later in the course, we had a CO's inspection, during which he asked me to put my gas mask on and take a drink from my water bottle. It wasn't a good experience. I didn't want him to know that I hadn't cleared it out so I stood there drinking this water mixed with CS gas. It was so nasty.


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## Korus (31 Oct 2004)

I was getting over a cold when I went to the gashut on basic.. It was great, cleared out the congestion..  ;D


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## Bert (31 Oct 2004)

If you're a lover of hot peppers and hot food, the gas hut training is nothing.  You're well prepared if
some CS gas gets through (but its not susposed to).  Pain is good.


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## speed400m (31 Oct 2004)

isnt that stuff bad for your health??


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## Kampfhamster (31 Oct 2004)

no, as long as you don't get too much of it. 

Did the gas-thing about 10 times this year with about 200 recruits, nobody was ever hurt. 
After an hour or so you don't feel a thing. 

Just make sure you don't rub your eyes after you take off the mask.


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## Sh0rtbUs (31 Oct 2004)

aaahh story time.

When we were headed to the gas huts in Borden, on our BMQ our merciful instructors decided to make it easy on us, and give us some tips. The predominant one was, drink lots of milk and it will neutralize the gas, therefore keepig your food down. I didnt believe this for a minute, and decided to just take it as it came. Several others on the course took my route, others blindly listened to the staff and drank so much milk from the fountains at the mess for breakfast, they felt bloated.

It was my turn to go in the hut, which is seperated into 2 rooms. The inside room is filled with gas, the 1st isnt, but they open the door. We walked in, and lloked at eachother, nothing. Within a few seconds, i felt a funny feeling in the back of my throat and my eyes began to water (but nothing like what we had been told). me and my friend stood there, and waited to see what it really felt like, then continued to do our drills. Little did i know, he wasnt feeling all that great (one of the guys that drank far too much milk). He was doing a good job of hiding his discomfort, I put on my mask, did the straps..yelled gas gas gas and looked to my friend. Byt his time, he felt it was time to give in and do the same. 

NOW, he mixed up his drills, and rather put on his mask..do the straps..check his seal..etc. He decided to yell gas gas gas WHILE fumbling for his mask in his carrier. 

He got the first gas out, the second was obscured and gurgled and the 3rd was a simple gulp noise as he projected a nice gallon of cheese across the room. The WO grabbed the slobbering, spitting fellow and threw him out the door, only to continue his yakking in the grass.

Note to all, when your course staff seems like they're being helpful, dont buy in... ;D


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## Gouki (31 Oct 2004)

hahaha!

I can just see that now...

"gas! .....ggass.....g-plurrgh"

Which leads me to wonder why anyone would have dairy ... anything before the gas hut!


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## rounder (31 Oct 2004)

> When we were headed to the gas huts in Borden, on our BMQ our merciful instructors decided to make it easy on us, and give us some tips.




     So what does that teach you... not to trust you Nco's. The WO should be fired (and beaten) and the Officer should be kicked out of the CF (and beaten) if they were aware. As for the staff who were in on this trick they should be skinned and let soak in vinegar. MAN that pisses me off when Nco's do STUPID shit like that. I apologize, on behalf of leadership, for this.


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## Hansol (1 Nov 2004)

thanks for all the stories.

As for officers being kicked out and WO being fired etc etc, i think at the end of it it makes for some very fond memories. and the worst thing that happens is you throw up your milk, so i figure in the end its not a big deal. cheers boys -Cameron


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## Blindspot (1 Nov 2004)

Hansol said:
			
		

> thanks for all the stories.
> 
> As for officers being kicked out and WO being fired etc etc, i think at the end of it it makes for some very fond memories. and the worst thing that happens is you throw up your milk, so i figure in the end its not a big deal. cheers boys -Cameron



I think the idea here is that the officers and instructors are the people recruits look to to give sound, professional advice during serious training. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have much respect for that instructor if I was the one spewing milk in the gas hut and then getting kicked in the arse by a WO. God help the recruit who doesn't take the instructor seriously after that when he's called to execute an important task and he doesn't do it.


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## arctictern (1 Nov 2004)

If you mix Chocolate milk with Coca Cola it will have a chemical reaction.


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## rounder (1 Nov 2004)

> It was a sort of "learning experience" for them.



  Armyboi are you right out of'er? Give your head a shake...  I've read alot of responses you've given on this site, and I know people give you a hard time, but wake up man!!! Nco's should not be pulling that kind of S!@T.


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## Hansol (1 Nov 2004)

hehehe i figure its not about a "learning experience" or about the fact that you look up to your WO and officers, i figure its almost common sense. I mean, c'mon, gorging yourself on anything, whether it be milk, cookies, or steak before going into a gas chamber? Also, in the american version of the gas chamber, during their BMQ recruits arent allowed to eat sweets. Then, on the day of the gas excercise, suddenly the instructors don't care if you eat as much cake as you want? sorry boys, but use your head..... cheers -Cameron


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## patt (1 Nov 2004)

Hansol said:
			
		

> hehehe i figure its not about a "learning experience" or about the fact that you look up to your WO and officers, i figure its almost common sense. I mean, c'mon, gorging yourself on anything, whether it be milk, cookies, or steak before going into a gas chamber? Also, in the american version of the gas chamber, during their BMQ recruits arent allowed to eat sweets. Then, on the day of the gas excercise, suddenly the instructors don't care if you eat as much cake as you want? sorry boys, but use your head..... cheers -Cameron



lol yea thats gotta be funny..the instructors just wait and see if the students listen to them or not!


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## NavyGrunt (1 Nov 2004)

I think those types of experiences are fine. A few minutes of pain, a memory forever. Big deal. When Im on the recieving end I dont care. Hell I do things to myself in my spare time that make me throw up....why cant my bosses at work do the same? :-X I obviously like it lol. Otherwise I'd leave the tequila alone.....and thats never going to happen.....hold the lemon, no lime, and salt? No thanks....


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## dutchie (1 Nov 2004)

Leaders are supposed to lead by example. Did the Instructors down a pint of milk prior to going into the gas hut? Did they follow thier own advice? I suspect not. 

What those 'Leaders' did was total shiite. You don't purposefuly cause harm to your troops just for shits and giggles. By doing this they show a severe lack of respect for their recruits, and the smart ones would see that. Once recruits lose respect for their instructors, it's game over. Those instructors will be fighting an uphill (and losing) battle for respect based on trust from that point on.

What a bunch of amatuers.

Armyboi and anyone else that thinks this is 'cool' or just part of the army fraternity: it's not. Train troops hard, but don't screw them over. What they should have done is made them run their ass off in or right before getting into the hut (the instructors doing the same of course). That is reasonable because troops should be expected to fight and sweat in an NBC environment - they sure as hell shouldn't expect to drink milk. If you want to practice mask clearing drills (ie-if you vomit), fine, but that's not what this was. They lied to you, plain and simple. If you think that's cool, Armyboi, you have a lot to learn.


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## Inch (1 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Nah... Their W.O.'s shouldn't be beaten.   It was a sort of "learning experience" for them.   Plus, one of the "traditions" would be to dish out some of what you got when you did your BMQ.   That would be one of them, and there's lots of others.
> 
> Consider it a friendly "Hasing" into their world



Hazing is not an acceptable practice in the CF, in any form. It's not a tradition to dish out what you got, that's just plain immature and very unprofessional. If you give them the option, it can be a fun experience, if you don't, that's hazing and not accepted, period. I never did understand people's fascination with giving it to the new guy, sure everyone has been tasked to get the BFA for the Carl G and other shenanigans, that's all in good fun and doesn't hurt anyone. Anything other than that and it's bullshit.

Caesar, you replied while I was typing, well put.


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## rounder (1 Nov 2004)

> Leaders are supposed to lead by example. Did the Instructors down a pint of milk prior to going into the gas hut? Did they follow thier own advice? I suspect not.
> 
> What those 'Leaders' did was total shiite. You don't purposefuly cause harm to your troops just for shits and giggles. By doing this they show a severe lack of respect for their recruits, and the smart ones would see that. Once recruits lose respect for their instructors, it's game over. Those instructors will be fighting an uphill (and losing) battle for respect based on trust from that point on.
> 
> ...



BINGO!! Another smart highlander


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## Sh0rtbUs (1 Nov 2004)

I understand where you're coming from, and i agree. But for the record, my mate has a good humour and he had a good laugh about it, but it was a risk that the staff should have probably steered clear of.


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## dutchie (1 Nov 2004)

To follow-up on what I posted earlier. These instructors are not leaders. Below is a list of the 'Principles of Leadership', and how they stacked up.

1-Lead by example FAILED
2-Seek and accept responsibility 
3-Appreciate your strengths and limitations and pursue self improvement; 
4-Know your troops and promote their welfare FAILED
5-Train your followers as a team and employ them to their capabilities; 
6-Make sound and timely decisions FAILED
7-Achieve professional competence; 
8-Ensure that your followers know your meaning and intent and lead them to accomplish the mission FAILED
9-Develop the leadership potential in your followers; and FAILED
10-Keep your followers informed of the mission the changing situation and the overall picture FAILED

6 out of 10 Principles of Leadership FAILED. And I was being nice on a couple of them, namely # 2 and #7.


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## dutchie (1 Nov 2004)

I can understand why'd you be mad because they "screwed their troops over", but it wasn't anything serious.  It would be one thing to lead your men to the enemy so they can see what simmunition feels like (ouch ), but this was just a little joke against the new guys.

you don't know what you're talking about. Where do you get your expertice? Ghost Recon? Stories of your 'ex-CSM' at your 'Corps' who just got back from Wainwright this summer? 

If you don't know what your talking about, post questions, not opinions of how you 'think it is'. 

If you know what you're taliking about, like cadets or whatever, then fine. But you are way above your experience here, Laddie.


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## Bert (1 Nov 2004)

<oops. Didn't read pg.3.  Post deleted.>


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Nov 2004)

A'boi69,

So what's the story on you. In your profile here, your a 14 year old Cadet. In your profile on your own site,

http://www.camouflaged-forumzz.tk/

you claim to be a "Military Reservist". Which is it?

Poser or troll? 

Or maybe you just brought too much attention to yourself too soon.


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## NavyGrunt (1 Nov 2004)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Leaders are supposed to lead by example. Did the Instructors down a pint of milk prior to going into the gas hut? Did they follow thier own advice? I suspect not.
> 
> What those 'Leaders' did was total shiite. You don't purposefuly cause harm to your troops just for shits and giggles. By doing this they show a severe lack of respect for their recruits, and the smart ones would see that. Once recruits lose respect for their instructors, it's game over. Those instructors will be fighting an uphill (and losing) battle for respect based on trust from that point on.
> 
> ...




Actually just thought about this. If they fuck up in the hut and never learn properly how to do their drills it could cost them their lives(and in turn mine) because the instructors were jerking around...hmm maybe the shitting each other should be left to outside class time...


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## QORvanweert (1 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> I can understand why'd you be mad because they "screwed their troops over", but it wasn't anything serious.   It would be one thing to lead your men to the enemy so they can see what simmunition feels like (ouch ), but this was just a little joke against the new guys.


First of all there is not such fine distinction as 'screwing your troops over'. You either teach them what they need to know or you are betraying them. It is one thing to test your troops, by example telling them to do PT on their own time and then skipping it for a while then returning with a vengeance, it is another altogether to order them todo something 'milk' and then watching them puke and barf out on the lawn when you are chortling away in perfect safety. no offense but this is not the Cadets. this is not a f*cking game that you can go out on the weekends and play. sometimes you need a sense of humour or else you cannot survive, but you will only be laughing at yourself and moving on. When NCM's lie to their troops and put them in a potentially dangerous situation then we have a big problem. especially a WO. these guys own your soul when you are on course, nothing or anything is more frightening then getting jacked up by an angry WO. When they betrayed the trust of these Pte.'s they also ruined the relationship between them and their superiors for a very long time. this goes beyond a simple joke. they might hesitate to obey an order one day and that might put my *ss on the line, or my buddy's. I think a RW is in order for these instructors.


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## Michael OLeary (1 Nov 2004)

QORvanweert, well put.


The purpose of introductory gas training is to demonstrate to the troops that their equipment works, that the issued drills are effective, and to test their ability to carry them out under consistent and controlled conditions. If an instructor changes the conditions of the test in any way that increases the difficulty of the test or the discomfort of failure, then they are failing that soldier, and they are the cause if the soldier fails the masking drill check. This undermines the soldier's confidence in the equipment and the drills, and undermines his faith/trust in his/her superiors. If those superiors aren't dedicating themselves to building and justifying the importance of that trust within command relationships, then they are wasting everyone's time and are failing to produce soldiers who believe in the strength of strong teams, in both lateral and hierarchical senses.


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## Blindspot (1 Nov 2004)

Some recruits could conceivably watch an instructor pull a pistol and shoot another recruit for being out of step and wouldn't have the sense to know it was murder. I've seen the blind hero worship and it's impossible to talk sense into these people. What's worse is some of them go on to become instructors themselves.


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## Hansol (2 Nov 2004)

c'mon guys, listen to what shortbus said: "...and give us some tips. The predominant one was, drink lots of milk and it will neutralize the gas, therefore keepig your food down. I didnt believe this for a minute, and decided to just take it as it came...." No where in there was anything mentioned about being ordered to down milk before going into the gas hut. What the warrant did was no different then telling a rookie cow hand to lean up close to the cow when you are tail jacking her (for those who don't know, when you tail jack a cow, you expose her arse hole, and because she is under stress she will shit all over your nice new wranglers because of your close proximity.) 

The boys learned their lesson, and no one died or compromised their training because they decided to listen to some questionable "tips" from their WO. Again with the American gas hut, you don't get to eat cake all basic, and then the day of the gas hut suddenly you get all the cake you want? Anyone with half a brain would take that with a grain of salt. Cheers -Cameron


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## Stefan Moxness (2 Nov 2004)

As someone who is doing their BMQ this coming summer, I haven't been exposed to anything truly military but I know for sure that if my superior, the person to whom I look up for sound advice and judgement, the person who is teaching me how to survive in a given situation gives me stupid advice for whatever reason, be it ignorance on the topic or for shits and giggles I can say that for sure I will lose a certain degree of trust in him and isn't that one of the most important things in the army, that subordinates have faith and trust in their superiors.  I understand that this didnt' put the individuals life at risk this time but couldn't this result in the private later on, not trusting a superior's advice or his order while on tour somewhere and in that case could he not lose his life or cost someone else theirs.  I think that what they did, though perhaps innocent in intent is still ridiculous and should not be tolerate within any fighting force.


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## rounder (2 Nov 2004)

> The boys learned their lesson, and no one died or compromised their training because they decided to listen to some questionable "tips" from their WO.




    Pl 2i/c's DO NOT give questionable advice... They are supposed to give sound advise. 

Nice try...


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## gun plumber (2 Nov 2004)

I was told that if you put rocks in you boots before the 13k you would'nd get blisters.........
Does that sound stupid to anyone?
If your Crse Wo or Section Cmdr told you this,then recoursed you because you failed to compleate the BFT,would you consider this a friendly form of hazing?
Bad leadership only equals one thing-1st round in the back of the head,or dead troops.Eithher way it's a bad situation no matter how you look at it.


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## Hansol (2 Nov 2004)

Okay boys, you got me riled up   ;D

I'm going to say it again for the third time: USE YOUR HEAD. I can see the gears working now... "Gee, i'm going into a situation where I am going to be inhaling CS gas, something that is known to make you throw up, give your whole body a burning sensation, make snot come out of every orifice on your body, and generally be a pain in the arse. Ah hell, lets drink 8 quarts of milk anyway..." I guess thats why they say in todays army they want THINKING soldiers, not mindless zombies. Can anyone here say "sheep"? Cheers boys -Cameron


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## gun plumber (2 Nov 2004)

Unfortunatly,the military system,expecially in QL2,BRT,GMT(whatever it's called now!)frowns upon(not to say they want robots either) free thinkers.The reason we are instilled with disipline and proper drills is,so when the time is right,we will react properly and effectivly as a fighting force(thats one reason why we practice snap shooting-see the target,aim,and fire all in 5 seconds-no thought,only instinct).
When the leadership compromises this(or calls in to question   orders or competancy of such)then you have problems.
When a PTRL Cmdr says"Ambush right" you are expected to react in a certin way.If this guy screwed you around before,you could think to your self"this guys F***ed!he does'nt know his a$$hole from a hole in the ground!"That 2 secs lost in thought could cost you your own life or worse the lives of your friends.
We have leaders to lead.This is why the CF is not a big Frat house.
After being told to follow orders to the letter,and being shown the results of not following them,alot of troops tend to follow orders and take tips from those who are seen as more experienced than themselves.Trust is a big factor in leadership,and when bad advice is given that results in negitive aftermath,it's not the troops who suffer,its the leaders.


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## Northern Touch (2 Nov 2004)

During BMQ this summer I think it might have been joked to us by the staff to eat a lot before the gas hut but it was in now way a suggestion, it was obviously a joke said in sarcasm and I'm posative no one even thought about loading up on food or milk before the gas hut.

If however, instructors seriously suggested to drink milk because it neutralizes that gas then that is wrong on so many levels.  Obviously because instructors are supposed to lead and troops have to TRUST instructors.  Doing something silly like suggesting troops drink milk before the gas hut erodes the faith troops have in their instructors.

What would have happened if they did end up gettign the mask on, and then proceeded to puke in the gas mask?  There is a good posibility they coudl have panicked and not opened that emptying / purging peice (i forget the name) on the mask to allow the puke to flow out.  PLus, how woudl they be able to learn their drills if they puked in the mask and weren't able to purge the gas out before breathing in?  Training is everything, but a face full of puke with a gas mask on for your first time ever isn't an optimal way to train.

On another note, Some of you guys must have had it easy, being able to suck in and slowly start to feel it.  I was the 3rd into the room and i dind't even have time to take a breath, it hit me almost automatically.  Watery eyes, runny noes, burning face and throat.  Lemme tell you, if you don't meet the 9 seconds before you go into the hut, don't worry about it.  you'll smoke it once u actually get hit with the gas.


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## D-n-A (2 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> How long are you in the Gas Room and what do you have to do while in there?



Your not in it for very long.


When I did mine, we walked into the gas hut in MOPP4(full dressed in the NBC suit, boots, gloves and mask on), checked our seals, than walked back out. Went to MOPP3(gasmask off), than went back  in. When everybody was in, the instructers yelled GAS GAS GAS, than we went to MOPP4. When we were done, we were walked back out.


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## Blindspot (2 Nov 2004)

Hansol said:
			
		

> Okay boys, you got me riled up   ;D
> 
> I'm going to say it again for the third time: USE YOUR HEAD. I can see the gears working now... "Gee, i'm going into a situation where I am going to be inhaling CS gas, something that is known to make you throw up, give your whole body a burning sensation, make snot come out of every orifice on your body, and generally be a pain in the arse. Ah heck, lets drink 8 quarts of milk anyway..." I guess thats why they say in todays army they want THINKING soldiers, not mindless zombies. Can anyone here say "sheep"? Cheers boys -Cameron



Yeah, and I'll say this for the second time...

In most cases you have sixteen, seventeen and eighteen year olds leaving from home for an extended period of time for the first time in their lives. They get jacked up by instructors for having lint on their beret, marching out of step, worse: not handing in ammunition after a live fire excercise, etc. These routines, traditions and general orders are in place for a reason. The role of the instructor is to teach these, not breach the trust of the recruit by perpetrating infantile jokes upon them under the guise of tactical advice. You don't listen to your instructor and you pay, often in pain or humiliation or both.

I ask you, what would you rather have:

A) An instructor who treats recruits firmly, fairly; who you can look up to as a mentor or

B) An instructor who delights in making a joke out of recruits for the purpose of looking cool?


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## chrisf (2 Nov 2004)

Hansol said:
			
		

> I'm going to say it again for the third time: USE YOUR HEAD. I can see the gears working now... "Gee, i'm going into a situation where I am going to be inhaling CS gas, something that is known to make you throw up, give your whole body a burning sensation, make snot come out of every orifice on your body, and generally be a pain in the arse.



For reference purposes, CS gas does not make you throw up. Some people do occasionally throw up as a result of the effects of CS gas (Example, from excessive coughing), or simply from being so nervous about going into the gas, but the CS gas itself does not cause one to throw up.


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## Northern Touch (3 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> How long are you in the Gas Room and what do you have to do while in there?



I was in their for a while. 
We went in, waited for the whole section to get in, and then did some PT to simulate how working in a NBC suit affects the body.  So we did some running on the spot and running in circles and stuff.  It was probably around a good 15 minutes.


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## dutchie (3 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> But when you're in the suits you aren't affected by the gas :-\ are you or are you not?



Please read the previous posts before posting your questions. I have copied and pasted the relevant info for you:

When I did mine, we walked into the gas hut in MOPP4(full dressed in the NBC suit, boots, gloves and mask on), checked our seals, than walked back out. Went to MOPP3(*gasmask off*), than went back   in. When everybody was in, the instructers yelled GAS GAS GAS, *than we went to MOPP4*. When we were done, we were walked back out.

Yes, the suit protects you, but with your mask off you breathe the gas in.


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## Hansol (3 Nov 2004)

"I ask you, what would you rather have:

A) An instructor who treats recruits firmly, fairly; who you can look up to as a mentor or

B) An instructor who delights in making a joke out of recruits for the purpose of looking cool?"


Its absolutely irrelevant. The intructors told the sheep that maybe drinking lots of milk would neutralize the gas, and again, common sense would dictate to do so would be somewhat detrimental to your wellbeing, and that you would be a tool to listen to such a bullocks statement.

And, at the same time, anyone who can "get" me to do something stupid like that has my respect. the old "foool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" doesn't hold true for me. If you are good enough to get me going the first time, you have obviously convinced me that some stupid thing is instead a good thing, and to do that takes skill and character. I'm sorry, but i'm not going to get my back up over ME doing something stupid. remember that. Nowhere did the instructor say DRINK MILK YOU WANKERS OR I WILL FAIL YOU. it was "optional" cheers boys -Cameron


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## dutchie (3 Nov 2004)

To: all recruits and cadets that have posted on this thread.

Every experienced soldier on this thread has told you that what the instructors did was wrong (with the exception of Aaron White, who later changed his mind). What does that tell you? You, of no experience and training, are telling me that we are all wrong? 

You mentioned the "fool me once" analogy. By 'fooling' the recruits, they create doubt in the legitimacy of commands. That is completly unacceptable and extremely dangerous to the soldier, especially in battle. You can't have troops wondering if their Section Commander is serious or not.

The bottom line is this: Trained, experienced soldiers have told you (civilians and recruits) that what they did was complaetly wrong. You, in your infinite wisdom drawn from nothing, disagree. You will learn one day.

ps, the 'cheers boys' thing is annoying. not trying to piss on your corn flakes, just pointing it out.


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## chrisf (3 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> But when you're in the suits you aren't affected by the gas :-\ are you or are you not?



The bunny suits are, for lack of a better comparison, rather similar to a snow suit, only lined with charcoal. The ones used for training have been washed repeatedly, and offer only minimal protection from the gas.


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## Northern Touch (3 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Sometimes the smallest things could end up killing you.  You never know... if that Staff member was in battle and he said "Run to that tree" but you see men watching you, ready to kill you, then who is going to trust the man's judgment?  That small little joke could have cost him their trust forever... even if it was a one time thing.



Seriosuly, what on earth are you talking about?
If your section cmdr, plt cmdr, plt 2/ic ANYONE in some sort of leadership says "run to that tree" in battle,whether someone is "watching you" or not, your sure as hell running to that tree becasue there is obviously a reason they want you there.  Suppressing fire, covering a road, flanking the enemy etc. etc.


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## QORvanweert (3 Nov 2004)

AmryBoi69.. I don't know if you realize this but you are on the 'ol C&P.. "Pte. this is the last attempt to salvage your career, now assume the push-up position..." hehehehe, buddy you are walking where angels fear to tread, if I were you I would make a heart-felt apology and then retreat to the Cadet section of this site and talk about Pumpkin Pie or w/e you guys do now and days...


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## Hansol (3 Nov 2004)

well, maybe i'm going to step on some toes saying this, but of the   "experienced" guys who have posted, in my opinion most still haven't said anything worth noting in regards to failure of leadership. Don't forget that it was one of the "Experienced" guys who said his buddy never got his back up about it, he just laughed it off, and now its a good story. No where was he bitching about the chain of command, and how he is now going to hesitate in a battle situation when ordered to do something all because he drank some milk and threw up.

I ran this by my reservists friends from the Calgary Highlanders, and they all had a good laugh, and said that anyone who thinks the WO should get kicked out for that needs to get the stick out of their *** and find a sense of humour.

As for the "cheers boys" Caesar, you can piss in my cornflakes all you want. I say it all the time, and will continue to say it, mostly because its a habit. And look, while our discussions may get heated and we may have some animosity towards eachother, just remember its all in good fun. I'm not trying to spite you guys or call you all wrong, and i don't think you guys are trying to do hassle me either. Its all just good conversation, and at the end of the night i would still buy you all beer. Always remember, that winning an arguement on the internet is like winning at the special olympics: sure you won, but you are still retarded mentally challenged. Cheers boys -Cameron

[Moderator Edit:  Terminology updated]


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## dutchie (3 Nov 2004)

We've been talking about this Gassing where they were told to drink milk before going to the Gas Chamber

I give up on you, Armyboi. You're a waste of bandwidth.

well, maybe i'm going to step on some toes saying this, but of the   "experienced" guys who have posted, in my opinion most still haven't said anything worth noting in regards to failure of leadership.

Some of us have informed you of the some of the most important aspects of the CF: trust in one's superiors. We have utilized anecdotes, official 'Principles of Leadership' and how they pertain to this case, generalizations, and so on to get the point accross. If you can't recognize the value of this, maybe your not ready for it yet. Maybe the lesson is not teachable to your experience level. That's too bad. Like I said, one day you will learn this lesson. 

I ran this by my reservists friends from the Calgary Highlanders

They are entitled to there opinion. I assume these friends of yours are recruits, privates, or Jr. Corporals. This would also explain their response. Regardless, lack of understanding on anothers part (your friends) does not deminish the validity of my stance. 

Always remember, that winning an arguement on the internet is like winning at the special olympics: sure you won, but you are still retarded mentally challenged.

Ha-ha. Good one. Pretty original. My aim is not to 'win an argument', but to instill in a potential recruit a sense of Command Responsibility. Shame on me.


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## Hansol (3 Nov 2004)

Caesar.

Fair enough. I understand perfectly now where you are coming from. I think where our opinion differs is in the fact that for some, the whole milk fiasco would instill distrust, whereas for myself, i think i would still have respect and trust for the leader. maybe even moreso.

yes you are correct in saying they are privates and cpls. i know they aren't representative of "leaders" yet, but i do feel they adequately show what the average soldier would think of having that prank pulled. That is why i used their opinion.

Yeah, i know the old "special olympics" line has been used a lot, but i always get a laugh out of it every now and then. figured it would lighten things up. And i thank you for your trying to instill leadership qualities into my opinions. I spose i should have stated before that while i do not believe this milk stunt to be evil or detrimental, I myself wouldn't pull it. I feel there is a time and place for jerking around, and i don't think the gas hut is the greatest of locals. -Cameron


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## dutchie (3 Nov 2004)

Fair enough. I still disagree with a whole lot of what you just posted, but I guess you need to evolve in your understanding of this, and I can't expect you to know it all yet. 

Your lack of concern for these leader's actions just drives home to me the importance  of the trust that has been instilled in the Section Commader - you don't even realize you are being misled and your trust betrayed, so it is doubly-important not to violate that trust.


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## QORvanweert (4 Nov 2004)

Hansol said:
			
		

> Caesar.
> ... I think where our opinion differs is in the fact that for some, the whole milk fiasco would instill distrust, whereas for myself, i think i would still have respect and trust for the leader. maybe even moreso...
> yes you are correct in saying they are privates and cpls. i know they aren't representative of "leaders" yet, but i do feel they adequately show what the *average soldier * would think of having that prank pulled. That is why i used their opinion.


Sorry, I do not quite understand how having your instructors say one thing and then watch them laugh when another happens will instill trust? and how on earth would you respect them more afterwards? this is like having some kid fry your safety rope with a magnifying glass and then let him belay you. And all your friends who think this is funny are probably only saying that so that you will be stupid enough to screw up on course and get jacked up by a Cpl. who doesn't find sh.it like that funny. on top of that, they are already soldiers so they are willing to laugh at the idea of some recruit messing up. if they were in that situation they wouldn't do the same thing themselves...


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## Hansol (5 Nov 2004)

heheh yeah a lot of people have trouble seeing it the way i do. Its just that in my eyes the warrant never said one thing and did another. He threw the idea out there that "milk would neutralize" the gas, and that was it. It was up to the soldier to decide whether to follow through on the questionable remark, not the warrant in this case. He never ordered anyone to do anything. the soldier had to decide whether he would blindly drink the milk, or whether he should stop and think and use some common sense. Again, he was never ordered to drink the milk, so this is why i don't see any problem.

In regards to my having more respect for the warrant, if you had read my previous posts, I said how the old "fool me once...." thing doesn't hold true for me. If you are crafty enough to fool me ANYTIME you have my respect. It means that you have convinced me that something "not-so-good" is actually instead "good" and to do that takes intelligence, wit, and a sense of humour. All qualities that i admire. Now this a perverse use of those skills, but nontheless it worked, and in my case i would have more respect for the warrant. Of course i would be more cautious around the man in the future.... Cheers boys -Cameron


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## rounder (5 Nov 2004)

> It was up to the soldier to decide whether to follow through on the questionable remark, not the warrant in this case.




It is not up to the soldier to decide. The WO should be aware that his "suggestions" will be taken seriously by his soldiers. Man Hansol you have a lot to learn. I say if this is how you think in three to four years time when you will be eligible for leadership do not go on the course. If I was a soldier and my sect comd did that to me there would definitely be retribution to be had.


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## dutchie (5 Nov 2004)

You know Hansol, I expected Armyboi to be too thick to get the points Rounder, QORdude, myself and others have given him, but not you. 

What will it take for you , a civie, to trust that we, soldiers, know more about what is and what is not acceptable behavior for a military leader? What experience do you have that gives you such special insight that we don't have? 

Here is a simplified breakdown of the Course Warrant-Recruit relationship in the Army on any BMQ/SQ/BIQ. This is not theory, this is how it is: 

The Warrant is God and knows everything.
The Recruit knows nothing.
Everything God says is law, to be followed without question, no exceptions.

In this case, if the Warrant says that milk counter-acts CS gas, the recruit should be able to bet his life on it.   By violating this, the Warrant is no longer God, he is a vindictive, immature, petty old man, and definately not a leader.

Got it?


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## QORvanweert (5 Nov 2004)

Hansol said:
			
		

> It was up to the soldier to decide whether to follow through on the *questionable remark*, not the warrant in this case. He never ordered anyone to do anything. the soldier had to decide whether he would blindly drink the milk, or whether he should stop and think and use some common sense.


o m g, this is a uphill battle. 1'st, WO's don't make questionable remarks when they are training people. 2'nd it is not upto the individual soldier to question anything that a WO says. they are Gods. 3'rd you cannot stop and 'think and use common sense' on a battlefield. common sense dictates that you run away and hide in a hole until the war is over, not that you obey orders and clear a trench in the dark.


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## dutchie (5 Nov 2004)

QORvanweert said:
			
		

> you cannot stop and 'think and use common sense' on a battlefield. common sense dictates that you run away and hide in a hole until the war is over, not that you obey orders and clear a trench in the dark.



well said.

that's just common sense!


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## Hansol (5 Nov 2004)

hehehe no worries guys. I am not trying to undermine your experience, or say you are wrong, or anything of the sort. Most likely, when i get into the army, I will learn the hard way how things work, and then come crawling back apologizing and stating how you were right. 

In regards to my last post, i was asked why i held the opinion i did, and i answered. I am not saying it is correct, but i was just stating what i based it on.

"What will it take for you , a civie, to trust that we, soldiers, know more about what is and what is not acceptable behavior for a military leader? What experience do you have that gives you such special insight that we don't have?" What you are talking about is the old struggle of "trying to explain a experience." Because I have yet to be in such a experience, there is no way i can comprehend what it is like. All i can base it on is my own experiences, which would be in this case farm work. You listen to the boss, you do what he says. If he suggests something, you can follow through with it, leading to either (A) getting something done easier or (B) getting an ass kicking and learning the hard way how things are done. It is up to you to use your common sense to judge whether it will be A or B. And since i accept responsiblity for my OWN actions, this is why i don't blame the boss, or in the military situation, the warrant.

And thank you for the "Course Warrant-Recruit Relationship Breakdown" I was quite sure this is how it is, and being told by people who have been there validates this even further.

I'm sure i have understood the point you guys are making. But me being that daft civie that i am, im not sure i will be able to agree with it in my current civilian environment. Like i said, as soon as i get into the army, and experience what you have, then i most likely will have a change of heart. 

As for rounders comment, again, if you had read my posts, i did say that while I myself do not believe there to be any error of judgement on the part of the warrant, I myself would not pull any stunt like that. There is a time and place for jerking around, and it isn't on course, or the gas hut etc. cheers -Cameron


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## dutchie (5 Nov 2004)

You're right out of 'er Hansol.


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## QORvanweert (5 Nov 2004)

Hansol, I would seriously advise you to re-consider ever joining the CF. *sighs* for the umpteenth time, no matter how experienced you are from working on your farm, or how many lessons you have learnt, in the army there ARE NOT TWO WAYS TO DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!! you do what they tell you to do and how they tell you to do it. just wait until you have to label your kit and you will see what I mean, sure it would be alot easier if they gave you a marker and you labeled it as you went through, or if you didn't have to practise packing and unpacking your sleeping bag, or if you didn't have to shave a certain way. it doesn't matter. you do what your instructors say. YOU DO NOT TRY TO IMPROVE ON THE SYSTEM. omg, should I say it again? you do not try to improve on the system. orders are meant to be obeyed to the letter, so if this means you have to sit somewhere for two hours and then run 10k to make a timing then you do it. the army(at least on course, especially bmq) is the most legalistic machine you will ever meet. you cannot win by fighting the system.


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## Hansol (5 Nov 2004)

wow where did i talk about improving on the system? please quote, cause obviously i am too "out of 'er" to understand your post. Where did i talk about two ways of doing things? I think you guys are misunderstood my point about the "farm experience" banter; it was to try an illistrate the philisophical point of the impossibility of trying to explain an experience to someone who hasn't shared the experience. Its like trying to explain to someone the colour green. It really can't be done. 

And no i'm not going to re-evaluate my choice to join the armed forces all because some guys on a internet chat board didnt want to agree with my opinions on whether or not someone should drink milk based on a Warrant Officer of the Canadian Armed Forces "tip" to do so. And don't forget that i also talked to experienced soldiers who didn't have a problem with the gag, so to each his own. Cheers -Cameron      

Edit: My computer is all buggered, so its getting fixed over the weekend. Won't be able to reply to our witty banter until sunday. Cheers boys, and enjoy the weekend. Take it easy on the fire water.


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## dutchie (5 Nov 2004)

No-one's trying to explain an experience, that would be silly - you couldn't possibly understand any experience I had. What we are trying to tell you is that there are some things that are not acceptable in the military, one of those is abuse of command. Despite your opnion, the CF regards this behavior as abuse of command!

We don't expect you to have personal experience (or training) that confirms why this is wrong, but we do expect you (a budding recruit) to trust what every experienced soldier has told you is true, especially when you have no clue what your talking about. Why ask experienced members of this forum for info/advice, if your just going to turn around and tell us we're wrong?

I do hope you join. I also wish I could be there to see your Section Commanders and Course Warrant lay into you when you use this 'common sense' of yours.


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## QORvanweert (5 Nov 2004)

Hansol- my advice for you to re-consider is only to save you the pain of learning why the CF sold common sense a long long time ago. By all means if you want to join then do so, just believe us when we say that certain things DO NOT fly. This is nothing personal, I am sure you have the potential for a great soldier but the more there is to train-out of you the harder your courses will be...
Cheers Buddy- Daniel


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## brin11 (5 Nov 2004)

Okay, time to agree to disagree all and move on.  I think we all know where everybody stands now on this "milk" issue.


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## Bushman (12 Nov 2004)

are the effects from CS gas on the respiratory system similar to a high grade grizzly spray?, or is CS a gas that affects both the respiratory system and the nervous system?? 

also if a newbie has a history of asthma (i don't - just curious), will that exclude them from applying to the CF ??


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## Pte. Bloggins (12 Nov 2004)

Bushman said:
			
		

> are the effects from CS gas on the respiratory system similar to a high grade grizzly spray?, or is CS a gas that affects both the respiratory system and the nervous system??
> 
> also if a newbie has a history of asthma (i don't - just curious), will that exclude them from applying to the CF ??



CS gas only affects the respiratory system (ie, if you breathe some in you'll get a nice burning feeling in your throat) this is mainly because the gas reacts to moisture, so the same thing goes if your neck or hands are sweaty then they'll feel like you've got a nice sunburn, but nothing major.

As fir the asthma question, do a search, as the topic has been discussed a bazillion times.


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## Bushman (14 Nov 2004)

Thanks fo the info. I finally found the asthma info as well...


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## Alex252 (14 Nov 2004)

Wow Armyboi your little black jokes on your site are about the worst jokes ive ever seen! If you think acting like that will get you in the CF good luck. Anyways, so if your not sweaty the CS gas wont burn?


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## D-n-A (14 Nov 2004)

Your eyes are always moist, so there burn. I did the gas hut in the summer, so its already hot out, an going into the bunny suit an putting your mask on just makes you warmer an sweat more. Aslong as you do your drills properly, you won't be effected by the gas to much(inhaling it will screw you up for a bit), your feel a bit of burning on your face, but thats it.


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## axeman (14 Nov 2004)

While its bothersome to go through gas training ,Oh well its part of the training in all colours of the uniform .
you MUST be familiar with the usage and maintance of your kit to be effective.if you are not you are a drain to your comrades who are supposed to support you  and you them if something has happened and they arte not able to mask up . thats the buddy system after your mask is on your suit done up you turn to help your comrades .If youve been slack jawed and do not care to learn this you WILL be a drain on a really precious resource , TRAINED active soldiers , sailor or airmen .  I generally am one not to do the suck it up routine but jeez . just suck it up . while its been a while  for me to practice my drills i still after a run or two would be able to get it to standard in no time . Stop the whining and sniveling . This training is req , do it . :crybaby:


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## Alex252 (15 Nov 2004)

*Huh?  Where did I post any Black jokes?*
http://www.camouflaged-forumzz.tk/ Under the jokes colum, 101 Black Jokes


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## Fishbone Jones (15 Nov 2004)

JHC, I went to ARMYboi69's own web site, the one that he administers and owns. Sure enough, there it is in the LMAO forum, posted by himself. That is the most immature posting of racially, inappropriate crap I've seen in a long time. Just when the Cadets seem to be digging themselves out of a hole, along comes a useless waste of skin and steals the shovel and ladder.

ARMYboi69,

It's your site http://www.camouflaged-forumzz.tk/ and I can't do anything about your crass, immature attitude. Suffice to say, you've probably lost any status to speak with anything approaching knowledge on this site. You disgust me.

Alex252,

Thanks for bring that to my (our) attention. It's one less dweeb I have to follow here.


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## Alex252 (15 Nov 2004)

*Alex252,

Thanks for bring that to my (our) attention. It's one less dweeb I have to follow here.* 
Glad to help ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2004)

So, I asked you this once before and you didn't answer. Below is taken from your own site 
http://www.camouflaged-forumzz.tk/ and profile:

All about ARMYboi69 

Administrator 
Joined:   29 Sep 2004 
Total posts:   107
[20.00% of total / 2.23 posts per day] 
Find all posts by ARMYboi69 
Location:   Ontario, Canada. 
Website:      
Occupation: * Military Reservist * 
Interests:     

Yet, here your profile says you're a cadet. Who are you lying to? Us or your visitors? Smells like Poser to me.


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## Alex252 (16 Nov 2004)

*Military Reservist * 

No way in hell could he be a soldier. I smell poser too


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## axeman (16 Nov 2004)

"So what?  Can I not have a site that has some jokes on them?

1. I didn't make them;
2. I'm not a Racist Person at all.
The jokes are meant to be laughed at.  Can you not take a joke?  I could, and I found them to be very funny ."

well they may seem funny to you but on the other side of the coin i find them offensive .Using the new human rights guidelines your guilty of numerous offences  given time and inclanation.im sure someone here could easily track down who you are and if you are in the military  have a word with the snr officers about this, you and the requirement of you being in for much longer ..


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## aesop081 (17 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> I know that you have to sign an "Anti-Racist" contract when you join the Army, but I'm not in the Army...



What the hell are you talking about ???

Come back to this forum when you get some time in !


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> I know that you have to sign an "Anti-Racist" contract when you join the Army,* but I'm not in the Army*...



So then, you freely admit the profile on your site stating *your Occupation as a "Military Reservist" is a lie*, and that by extention you are a POSER.


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