# Why do they rig sheers in sea cadets?



## Sailing Instructor (11 Apr 2006)

I would like to know if anyone has any insight into why sea cadets learn this more-or-less useless skill only to never use it again in their lives.  I have been giving a long and hard think into the sea cadet QSP and wondering why it does not teach more modern navy skills.  Moreover, I have never seen a naval reserve ship (i.e. the buildings in which most sea cadets parade) with the fixings required to properly use sheers whereas they always have (amongst other deck evolution fixtures) platforms for light-line-transfer.

The best justification I have seen for continuing to teach this outdated practice is that it is "part of our naval heritage."  If that is the best justification out there, we should also flog cadets to keep that part of our naval heritage alive.

Even if the series of lessons is justified, as I have mentioned above, the cadets will never use it again.  This, of course, stems from the fact that it is an outdated practice and, like most outdated practices, does not occur in regular situations.

With my own mind, the best justification I can think of is: sheers bring together all (or most) seamanship skills, giving purpose to all the previous lessons.  That is very true but dinghy sailing and other types of small craft evolutions involve these skills.  

Does anyone know the 'official doctrine' that led to this lesson?  Or does anyone have their own justification?


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## Neill McKay (11 Apr 2006)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> Even if the series of lessons is justified, as I have mentioned above, the cadets will never use it again.  This, of course, stems from the fact that it is an outdated practice and, like most outdated practices, does not occur in regular situations.



Most will never use drill again... but they can still leanr something from it.



> With my own mind, the best justification I can think of is: sheers bring together all (or most) seamanship skills, giving purpose to all the previous lessons.  That is very true but dinghy sailing and other types of small craft evolutions involve these skills.
> 
> Does anyone know the 'official doctrine' that led to this lesson?  Or does anyone have their own justification?



I've read the official explanation, but it was several years ago and I don;t recall it in detail.  Briefly, it was seen as an application for seamanship skills, as you suggest, that doesn't require specialized facilities or proximity to water.  I think teamwork figured into it as well.

I prefer the light jackstay because it's more current and more useful in that you can transder things across one, where you'd never try to lift anything more than a foot off the fround with shears (and then only if you had the right fitting on the wall to secure it to).  As you say, probably every naval reserve division in the country has the fittings for a jackstay (although that would only accound for about 24 sea cadet corps, which is a very small fraction of the total).  For the rest, a jackstay can be rigged between a pair of volleyball net standards.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Apr 2006)

I think you answered your own question:


			
				Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> With my own mind, the best justification I can think of is: *sheers bring together all (or most) seamanship skills, giving purpose to all the previous lessons.*  That is very true but dinghy sailing and other types of small craft evolutions involve these skills.



As well, many stone ships do not have the capability or natural resources for dinghy, or any other type of, sailing.
Besides, don't some still utilize it for the gun run?



			
				Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> The best justification I have seen for continuing to teach this outdated practice is that it is "part of our naval heritage."  *If that is the best justification out there, we should also flog cadets to keep that part of our naval heritage alive.*



I agree!! A taste of the cat will make you a man  Arrrrrgh, ever been to sea Billy? ;D


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## Sailing Instructor (11 Apr 2006)

Without getting into a discussion of the merits of drill, I will say that it has proven itself to be a good 'attitude' tool for promoting teamwork and obedience to orders.  Whereas sheers are only one possible way of combining the seamanship skills.

The problem I notice with the sheers is the lack of continuity in training.  According to the SC QSP, the lessons are intended to be practical-based.  While this is assuredly a skill lesson, its uselessness (beyond combining seamanship skills for those few periods of instruction) prevents the cadets from ever being able to apply their skills.  That is to say: a cadet has more chance of regularly utilising his knot-tying and block-and-tackle-rigging skills by dinghy sailing (or YAG cruises, or light-line transfer etc.) than he does by learning sheers.

But that is a good point about the gun-run.  It and sheers would seem to fall into the same category of old, outdated practices.  Perhaps the sheers could be used as a competition piece just as the gun run is...?

What I like about the light-line transfer (I don't think stone frigates are built to withstand the weights for a jackstay (which I should know but I've forgotten since NETPO) but perhaps there are some exeptions) is that it is used by our navy.  I think there is a definite lack of interest in both modern navy practices and Canadian navy practices in the QSP.  Obviously teaching sheers (and the gyn before) fostered _my_ interest in MARCOM, so I can't say that this use of 19th century naval knowledge is totally bad.  But I think it is a mistake to have these seemingly unnecessary divorces between 'what the navy does' and 'what the sea cadet corps does'.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Apr 2006)

We jump on cadets when they complain about wanting to learn tactics and and do more weapons handlings. I wonder if teaching them more modern navy skills will make us guilty as well of promoting child soldiers....


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## Strike (11 Apr 2006)

You know, just along the road leading to the back gate in Petawawa there is a large tri-pod rigged up for Lord-knows-what.  It looks very suspiciously like a shearlegs set-up.

As to when it may be used again, well, in my military career (I went Air Force) I've actually had to use similar systems more than a few times, one of them being during BOTC.


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## NavalGent (11 Apr 2006)

SI,
There are sheerlegs competitions in Ontario. I was on my corps' sheers team in my last year in. 

Strike,
Sea cadets also learn to rig a tripod setup called a Gyn (also for competition in Ontario). It differs from the Sheers in that it has three legs rather than two, and differs from the IAP/BOTP tripods in that the legs are braced at the bottom by tackles instead of additional lashed spars, although I believe the headlashing is still the same. This may be what you saw. 

Now, I have been out of cadets since 2003, so I can't be 100% sure if they still learn gyn, or still compete in either evolution/sport, but that's the way it was not too long ago.


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## Strike (11 Apr 2006)

We generally used to call the tripod "sheerlegs", and the bipod is a jackstay for transfers between two ships.

Yes, I  may be Air Force, but I have 5 years of sea cadet experience and a very Navy family.   ;D

When on BOTC, one of the tasks was to lift a "bomb" out of a gorge without jossling it too much and little human contact.  Used the Jackstay.

As for the tackle at the bottom, don't forget to mouse those hooks.     That used to be my job during competitions.


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## NavalGent (11 Apr 2006)

The sheers that I dealt with consisted of two legs/spars, forming a bi-pod. When raised, it formed a bi-pod, and was used to lift a load vertically. Here's the current sea cadet sheers that I know: http://www.cadets.ca/seacad/resources-ressources/phase4/6_e.asp
I guess two sheers rigged opposite could be used for a jackstay. 
The bomb out of the ditch is still a task on IAP/BOTP, but we used the simplified bi-pod/tripod to get it out.

Interesting note about the "bomb" that they use for that, I am fairly certain that the bomb in Farnham is an old squid anti-submarine mortar used by the RCN in the years after WWII. See http://hmcshaida.ca/squid.html (The one in Farnham is a little more beat up though).

My job was to do the headlashing. 8)


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## Neill McKay (11 Apr 2006)

Strike said:
			
		

> We generally used to call the tripod "sheerlegs", and the bipod is a jackstay for transfers between two ships.



Here's a picture of a jackstay: http://www.jayhillmp.com/ottaccess/photos2/JackStay-11_RT8%20sm.htm


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## Neill McKay (11 Apr 2006)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> We jump on cadets when they complain about wanting to learn tactics and and do more weapons handlings. I wonder if teaching them more modern navy skills will make us guilty as well of promoting child soldiers....



Somehow "child sailors" doesn't sound as bad!


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## Lerch (12 Apr 2006)

-OMG ARE THOSE CADETS RIGGING SHEERLEGS?! THEY MUST BE CHILD SAILORS!!!
Yeah...just doesn't have the same impact that 'child soldiers' does


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## childs56 (13 Apr 2006)

I was in Sea Cadets a few years ago. I learned the Jack Stay, Gyn and the sheers, along with the many types of lashings, whippings, knots etc. While I was learning most of those I wondered if any of them were really all that important. 
10 or so years later while looking back on the seamanship training I realized a few things.  Team work, you had to have team work to complete the tasks. Retention of skills was taught, not only did you have to remember the lashings, knots etc for a test you had to remember them for their usage. 
Now lets fast forward to when I joined the Army Reserves. Knot tying came in use numerous times. The military kinda slipped on it's teaching of anything more then the basic knot tying of the bow line, overhand and maybe even the reef knot(to which it was usually taught wrong in my experience). With the Seamanship skills I had learned in Cadets, it helped me to pass those on to the people whom wanted to learn them in the Reserves. 
Out side of the military and Cadets there are numerous times when the Gyn, or Sheers can and will come in handy. For instance if you hike alot. and have to do some small ravine crossings making up a Sheers as a mounting point can help, setting up a Gyn to pull an engine out of a vehicle when you are in the middle of no where. 
The lists can and will go on. 
The number one thing to remember about all of these skills taught in Cadets is the team work aspect. I am not saying that there is not better team building exercises out there, but the basics of Seamanship skills in my opinion are some of the best and most valuable tools to building team work, not only in Cadets but also the Navy. (the latter does little teaching of these any more).


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## reccecrewman (13 Apr 2006)

SI,

The reasons you mentioned in your post are precisely the reasons why the Sea Cadets practice sheerlegs.  I was a member of RCSCC Repulse for 7 years from 1991-98.  In my Flotilla, that sheerlegs competition was part of one of many competitions we had annually;

.22 Marksmanship
Air Rifle Marksmanship
First Aid
Sheerlegs
Drill with Arms
Drill without Arms
Band
Sailing
Sports

You can see there is a common thread running throughout the competitions - team building, sportsmanship and the ever so important esprit de corps.  You could argue that the marksmanship competition is individual, but the Corps that won the event was highest cumulative score. Yes there was an award for top shot overall, but it was a team of 6 that would win the competition. Espit de Corps is huge - My Corps had a deep pride in its drill with and drill without teams, winning several Flotilla (Regional) competitions and Provincial titles as well. These competitions also allow cadets to intermingle and meet cadets from other Corps and make lasting friendships.

PS - Naval Heritage is also a very important aspect of the sheer legs.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Apr 2006)

CTD said:
			
		

> Out side of the military and Cadets there are numerous times when the Gyn, or Sheers can and will come in handy. For instance if you hike alot. and have to do some small ravine crossings making up a Sheers as a mounting point can help, setting up a Gyn to pull an engine out of a vehicle when you are in the middle of no where.



Yup, I can't count the number of times I had to pull out my Swiss Army knife, and swap out the engine on my truck when it pooched half way up Everest....... ;D


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## Sailing Instructor (14 Apr 2006)

There have been a lot of good points raised about the skills learnt in sheerlegs construction.  Perhaps it is just the units with which I have done this evolution, but there is no programme implemented to ensure this skill (sheerlegs construction) is continued.  That is, there is no programme nationally.  

As an example of a skill set that _is_ provided for across the CCM: sailing.  Each year there is a series of regattas meant to develop teamwork and competition in cadets.  But sheers can be left on the deck, literally and figuratively.  After learning that class, it is soon to be forgotten without the sort of competitions and displays mentioned.  

Yes, I have used it on BOTC (not exactly the same structure).  But I am speaking of skills used within cadets.  I am also speaking of the practicality of sheers specifically (viz. the lack of infrastructure for their complete construction) in the usual locations of cadets' LHQs (viz. stone frigates).

I have nothing against cadets building sheers.  What bothers me is cadets spending several classes building something that they do not use again (literally, not even in cadets) if their unit does not have regular competitions involving that skill.  It is akin to learning how to rig a dinghy and then never going on a sail exercise.


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## Kat Stevens (14 Apr 2006)

I spent 23 years doing NBCW or whatever the acronym du jour is.  I can't ever recall getting nuked, bio'ed, or chem'ed either.  So they learn something they will never use again, never happened to you before?  Or are you constantly required to find the centre of a circle with a compass and ruler?  WHAT they do is not nearly as important as HOW they learn to work together to accomplish a task.  Most of the crap cadets learn will never be used again.  We can't just keep 'em on the drill square all night, every night, can we?


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## Sailing Instructor (14 Apr 2006)

I don't think I've made myself really clear.  When I say 'that they will _literally_ never use again,' I mean _literally_.  

I am not complaining of cadets learning sheers to never use them in their civilian lives (or navy lives).  This can be applied to a great many specific activities cadets do.  I am complaining that, as far as the national training plan goes, the cadets learn the sheers for several periods and then do not use them in their cadet careers.  The composite skills of sheers (i.e. various seamanship skills) are used all the time in cadets: sailing, YAGs, etc.  But the entire evolution of sheers is not.

I know some divisions have competitions amongst their corps or other ways to keep this skill fresh in the minds of cadets.  But what I object to is the fact that there is no further planning for these skills within the training plans.  But perhaps I have overlooked the function of teamwork building.  I just don't know how much teamwork is built by doing something as a team once.


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## bLUE fOX (14 Apr 2006)

Bare in mind that I write this under the assumption  based solely on your name that you are a former cadet. As a cadet in a land locked unit (London,Kitchener, Woodstock, Walaceburg and that's just Thames Flotilla) what possible use will a cadet have for sailing? I myself was a cadet and I remember every year going sailing. I am still involved with the program as an officer, but not once since i graduated the program have I been dinghy sailing. We never practiced sailing through the cadet year, during the summer only, so it's not like much emphasis was put on sailing small Echos or Code 40's at the LHQ. So by your reasoning should we perhaps eliminate the sailing program? after all (and feel free anyone else to correct me) The modern Navy consists of mostly diesel and gas turbine engines so why waste the time with sails if they wont use them again in their navy careers either? By Contrast however for as long as I have been involved with RCSCC Repulse we have had a Shears team and since it's inception we have only had one year without a Gyn team. I think the Shears is just as good a teaching tool as sailing. It develops leadership(sailing you assign skippers, in shears/gyn cadets decide who assembles what), Practical application of skills(sailing uses knots and navigation, shears/gyn uses knots, mechanical advantage and both teach safety) and quite frankly I have had more use for the skills learned in shears on the job site (setting up temporary lifting device on towers and other such rope work). So what more dis you want to know?


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## Neill McKay (14 Apr 2006)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> I don't think I've made myself really clear.  When I say 'that they will _literally_ never use again,' I mean _literally_.



It's not a case of learning shear legs for the sake of being able to rig shear legs.  They learn shear legs because it's a useful vehicle for other knowledge and skills, some seamanship-related and others not.

In passing, though, most will need this skill at least once after it's been taught at the LHQ: it's part of the practical exam for promotion to PO1.


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## Kat Stevens (14 Apr 2006)

Or, perhaps, if the leaders of your corps were to make it a semi regular thing, rather than taking the easy way out and put them on the square every night, then it will be used again, won't it?  On my TQ3 and 5A, we built all manner field engines, aerial ropeway, gyn and shear, single pole derrick, etc.  Did I ever have to build one in real life? No.  Was it an interesting exercise in teamwork, knowledge, and even a little physics?  You bet.  If you can get Ontario hydro or whoever to donate a half dozen poles and a few miles of rope, the kiddies may get to do something out of the ordinary.  I was a sea cadet too, and other than my two weeks in Quadra, I have never set foot on a whaler or a cutter.


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## reccecrewman (15 Apr 2006)

I have to echo what Kat Stevens says.  Just because your flotilla doesn't put any emphasis on Sheers by not having competitions, doesn't mean you can't have inter-corps competitions.  My old corps and virtually every corps I know are broken down into "sub-units". Guard, Colour Party, Gunscrew and Band.  Have annual or semi-annual competitions of the different skills the cadets learn within the unit.  In '97 my Corps got an Army cadet WO who brought a wide range of skills the sea cadets don't learn, but the leadership in the corps utilized her skills to teach the youngsters skills sea cadets don't normally get - but her transfer to us gave our young cadets another broad scope of things to learn.  Map & Compass was the big one, and on week-end adventure training we had 2 or 3 times a year up near Camp Ipperwash, the cadets got to practice their skills learned in the classroom. Will they ever use these skills again? Maybe yes, maybe no, but it was the leadership who ensured that as cadets, they would use that skill again.

Regards


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## Sailing Instructor (15 Apr 2006)

Thank you all, you have convinced me that sheers are a useful part of the training programme.  How many of your units have the infrastructure for sheers?  (The whole device, I mean, not just lashing two poles together and saying, 'OK, that's as far as we can go....')


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## bLUE fOX (15 Apr 2006)

Repulse, Courageous, Lion, Adm Nelles, Agamemnon are just a few of the ones I've been to who can support that, and if any corps has access to a yard and some stakes they can build one outside. A gin needs even less.


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## ryanmann356 (17 Apr 2006)

It seems as though there is alot of things people learn that they think is useless.  When I was learning my knots and lashings i thought that it was lame and that I would never have to use it, but I was suprised at how handy that skill was. 
 But knowing this doesnt change some peoples attitude towards other skills such as map and compass  :


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## 392 (18 Apr 2006)

Strike said:
			
		

> You know, just along the road leading to the back gate in Petawawa there is a large tri-pod rigged up for Lord-knows-what.  It looks very suspiciously like a shearlegs set-up.



I believe that's used by the Brigade Tug-of-War Team for practice (put giant weight in centre and tug).....


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