# "Arm bylaw officers: Mammoliti"



## mariomike (26 Apr 2010)

Story in today's paper:
"Toronto mayorality candidate Giorgio Mammoliti says bylaw enforcement officers should be armed with guns and given the power to arrest people posting signs or painting graffiti on city property.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/04/25/13716221.html

Councillor Mammoliti had this to say in Dec. 2007:
Topic: "Another Shooting in T.O., and one Councillor wants the army to come in.": 
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/68630/post-645015.html#msg645015


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Apr 2010)

I was for arming border guards and park wardens, but not for bylaw officers, I have seen to many that have really bad tactical communication skills to put it politely.


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## dapaterson (26 Apr 2010)

I for one look forward to armed takedowns of ten-year olds posting illegal signs for their lemonade signs.


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## Occam (26 Apr 2010)

It's quite clear that many people don't know the full scope of what Municipal Law Enforcement Officers do in the course of their duties.  Some are former police officers.

I can assure you that they face situations more hazardous than illegal signage and graffiti artistry.


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## vonGarvin (26 Apr 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I for one look forward to armed takedowns of ten-year olds posting illegal signs for their lemonade signs.


Sadist!  ;D


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## dapaterson (26 Apr 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> It's quite clear that many people don't know the full scope of what Municipal Law Enforcement Officers do in the course of their duties.  Some are former police officers.
> 
> I can assure you that they face situations more hazardous than illegal signage and graffiti artistry.



And in that case they can back off and call in armed assistance.


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## larry Strong (26 Apr 2010)

In my town the dog catcher is also a Bylaw Enforcement Officer.....and I am not sure I would want them armed.


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## Occam (26 Apr 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And in that case they can back off and call in armed assistance.



By that logic, armoured car services don't require arming either.  It's only cash they're guarding, which can be replaced, right?

BC Transit police shouldn't need them either, they're only dealing with fare-jumpers too, right?

If they're put in a position where they have to enforce the law, then a defensive weapon should be a no-brainer.  Of course there should be necessary training provided, but that should go without saying.


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## 40below (26 Apr 2010)

I'm sure I'm the only one who lives in a city where the only reason people work in bylaw enforcement is that JTF-2 had filled their recruiting goals for the year, but I wouldn't trust the ones we have to carry a clipboard without putting an eye out, let alone a sidearm.


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## Occam (26 Apr 2010)

40below said:
			
		

> I'm sure I'm the only one who lives in a city where the only reason people work in bylaw enforcement is that JTF-2 had filled their recruiting goals for the year, but I wouldn't trust the ones we have to carry a clipboard without putting an eye out, let alone a sidearm.



I can see I'm dealing with some disgruntled recipients of parking tickets and unsightly premises violations, so the misconception that MLEOs only carry out those tasks appears to be alive and well.  Carry on.


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## Thompson_JM (26 Apr 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> I can see I'm dealing with some disgruntled recipients of parking tickets and unsightly premises violations, so the misconception that MLEOs only carry out those tasks appears to be alive and well.  Carry on.



I think the concept of Arming By-Law officers before we look at arming University and Transit Special Constables is ridiculous...  

Why not try giving all the resources to the people who are already Almost full on cops vs people who are arguably a couple levels above a security guard.

I am all for Arming those people who need it, and using them as force multipliers for the Police out on the streets, but I've seen too many by-law officers who should never carry... 
besides... why not try for intermediate UoF options first? I say give em some hot sauce and a learning stick first and see how they do with that.... or maybe body Armour... 

In Hamilton Most of the parking enforcement is done by commissionaires... do you really want to see them armed? 

Not to mention, the increased cost of equipping, training, re-training, etc....  I just don't see it as being worth it... If you want to carry a gun, you have a couple options... Become a Cop, join with a Armored car company, or try to get into one of the other Provincial or Federal enforcement branches that carry....   

I really don't think that By-Law needs to be going it alone in that regard... if the situation warrants it, they should be showing up with a couple of Cops in tow...

After reading both those articles I am convinced that man is an Idiot...


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## dapaterson (26 Apr 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> By that logic, armoured car services don't require arming either.  It's only cash they're guarding, which can be replaced, right?



By that logic, all retail tellers should be armed, since they have custody of large sums of money.  I know I want the minimum wage workers at WalMart to be packing heat...



> BC Transit police shouldn't need them either, they're only dealing with fare-jumpers too, right?



I agree that Transit security should not be armed.  Again, if a situation escalates to the point where armed force is required, have trained professionals (the police) do it.  BC Transit security got themselves guns as a step to getting higher pay and for intimidation - not because of a need.



> If they're put in a position where they have to enforce the law, then a defensive weapon should be a no-brainer.  Of course there should be necessary training provided, but that should go without saying.



"Defensive" weapon is in the eyes of the beholder.  I'm sure the BC RCMP thought of the Taser as a defensive weapon.  

Bylaw officers are not peace officers; they're public officers.  Giving dog catchers and folks who ticket homeowners for weeds in their lawn a Glock is a ridiculous proposition.


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## 40below (26 Apr 2010)

As an aside, do any of you CBSA types on here have the figures for what percentage of border guards failed to qualify when that agency was authorized to carry sidearms, either because they were judged medically or psychologically unable, failed the actual testing or simply refused to qualify (carrying and using firearms is NOT in the statement of qualifications that existed when the individuals were hired, so the government cannot subsequently force them to qualify on a weapon as a condition of employment or discipline them for not doing so.) 

It was a few years ago since the initial round of firearms qualification but I recall it being a surprisingly large number, and the only thing I can find is that of the guards who made as far as the actual hands-on training, 20 per cent failed on the range - some of them because they weren't physically strong enough to hold a handgun steady. I'm sure training thousands and thousands of property standard-harassers and off-leash-dog-ticket-writers is gonna go a LOT more smoothly.


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## Michael OLeary (26 Apr 2010)

I think all municipal employees should be armed .... and, therefore, they should all have to be intelligent enough and psychologically mature enough to carry a weapon responsibly. 

Now, what about those contractors? You never know when one of those recycle truck operators may have to take down a scavenger and recover a stolen wine bottle, the City needs those refunds.    ;D


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## Occam (26 Apr 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> By that logic, all retail tellers should be armed, since they have custody of large sums of money.  I know I want the minimum wage workers at WalMart to be packing heat...
> 
> I agree that Transit security should not be armed.  Again, if a situation escalates to the point where armed force is required, have trained professionals (the police) do it.  BC Transit security got themselves guns as a step to getting higher pay and for intimidation - not because of a need.



The same could be said for the ever-increasing qualifications requirements of Military Police officers, but I digress. (Yes, I know they had guns all along - I'm referring to the training requirements)



> Bylaw officers are not peace officers; they're public officers.  Giving dog catchers and folks who ticket homeowners for weeds in their lawn a Glock is a ridiculous proposition.



Maybe they should be peace officers.  I personally think they should have the weapon (even if it's just OC spray and a baton) available for those instances where waiting for armed response isn't an option - e.g. when that person you just served with a court summons begins beating you about the head.  I have no idea if the provincial associations are for or against arming MLEOs, but if they feel it's necessary, I'm behind them.  I do agree that this mayoralty candidate seems to be a bit of a wingnut...

And don't be silly - MLEOs don't ticket homeowners for having weeds, since weeds are a protected species.  It's fair game to ticket people for using weed killer, though.   ;D


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## 40below (26 Apr 2010)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> You never know when one of those recycle truck operators may have to take down a scavenger and recover a stolen wine bottle, the City needs those refunds.    ;D



Well, it goes without saying that municipal recycling trucks will be reclassified as Light Armored Vehicles and carry weapon pods with night sights. Don't even get me started on the close air support they can call in on people who don't separate plastics from paper, but let's just say they won't be doing THAT again.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Apr 2010)

:stirpot: I think anyone that can pass the requisites,  courses and qualify should be allowed to carry a la Utah, Arizona, Florida or anyplace else that allows private citizens to carry for self protection. Why should the authorities be the only ones allowed to protect themselves?   :worms:


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Apr 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> I can see I'm dealing with some disgruntled recipients of parking tickets and unsightly premises violations, so the misconception that MLEOs only carry out those tasks appears to be alive and well.  Carry on.



I had the bylaw officer jumping up and screaming because I dared to tell her she did not know the difference between a ROW and an easement. When I queried one of them driving a vehicle with cameras to enforce the parking regs as to how it worked, she refused to talk to me about it as if it was a big secede, the engineering staff at city hall were happy to tell me. I have met some very decent bylaw officers, but based on the level of training they get and the current quality of a fair number of the ones I have dealt with I would say no to the arming. Partly due to the lack of proper training they would get, the lack of requalification they would receive and if an officer shot someone in a situation that was even remotely questionable, the city would hang the officer out to dry. Give them a can of bearspray.


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## mariomike (26 Apr 2010)

This is the ward Councillor Mammoliti represents:
http://www.toronto.ca/wards2000/images/ward07.gif

There was a story in The Globe this year:
"He proposed building a subway up Jane Street. Yes, it would cost billions, he admitted, maybe “$100-billion,” but it was worth it to end what he called the segregation of Jane-Finch. Anyway, he said he was sure the private sector would help pay the freight. Why, exactly, private companies would be keen to pay for a subway to Jane and Finch he did not say.":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/inside-city-hall/mammolitis-old-school/article1427487/

There was also a strip club tour:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/609210

Councillors Mammoliti and Ford - also running for Mayor -  in action at City Hall. It gets interesting around the 00:50 mark. ( Georgio is wearing the yellow blazer )
"Why did you call him a fat f...?!":
http://www.torontolife.com/daily/hype/prime-time/2010/04/26/rob-ford-and-giorgio-mammoliti-are-an-inspiration%E2%80%94to-comedians/

If they decide to arm city employees, I think they would start with Corporate security, Housing and TTC Special Constables.


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## Thompson_JM (27 Apr 2010)

mariomike said:
			
		

> If they decide to arm city employees, I think they would start with Corporate security, Housing and TTC Special Constables.



And the UofT Specials as well.....  hell... if your job title is "Special Constable" you should be carrying...  
and in a perfect world, York U would be forced to bring in a Special Constable Service as well and get rid of their useless paid observer security....


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## Greymatters (27 Apr 2010)

I'd be interested in an on-site poll - is there already one on this subject, or can it be added to this thread?

I.E. 
Question:
Which of the following law enforcement/security members should be provided with a weapon for self-protection and/or enforcement?
a) RCMP officer  
b) Provincial police officer  
c)  Municipal police officer
d) Any member with peace officer status including SIU from crown corporations
e) Any by-law enforcement officer
f) Any transportation-related enforcement officer
f)  Any government-contracted security guard

Although there are quite a few other categories that others could add...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Apr 2010)

Second green button from the left below a post.


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## mariomike (27 Apr 2010)

Re: Questions: d, e, f and f (sic) on the poll:

By-Law Enforcement Officers are Peace Officers: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bylaw_enforcement_officer#Peace_Officer_Status
"Section 15(2) of Ontario's Police Services Act R.S.O. 1990, states "Municipal law enforcement officers are *peace officers *for the purpose of enforcing municipal by-laws."

"in the Province of Ontario, Bylaw Enforcement Officers are generally titled "Municipal Law Enforcement Officers," M-LEO 

Security Officers employed by the city ( Corporate Security ) are Peace Officers:
City of Edmonton: "Corporate Security Peace Officer"
https://edmonton.taleo.net/careersection/2/jobdetail.ftl?lang=en&job=77340

In Toronto, Corporate Security Officers have Special Constable status, and "certified as a Municipal Law Enforcement Officer", which would make them Peace Officers. Ref: Key Qualifications #14 and #16:
http://wx.toronto.ca/inter/hr/jobs.nsf/b95d1630385b57cd8525668200523188/c0befdf408af29b8852573e20058b683?OpenDocument

Security guards contracted by the city ( such as during the 2009 strike ):
"It is also unclear to what extent peace officer status applies to non-proprietary (contract) employees, such as those employed by a security company on contract to a municipality."

TTC Special Constables are Peace Officers:
"These peace officers have similar powers as Police Officers and are sworn in by the TTC and these police forces: Toronto, York, Peel":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TTC_Special_Constable_Services#Jurisdiction

The new ( 2007 ) City of Toronto Act has given "new powers" to City Council ( Mammoliti ) and the Mayor:
http://www.toronto.ca/mayor_miller/summaryact.htm

Toronto Sun reports that Councillor M. is "modelling certain aspects of his platform after former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani, who ascribed to the broken window theory — namely if the petty crimes like graffiti and panhandling are dealt with, crime will not escalate."


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## Ex-SHAD (9 May 2010)

There’s nothing wrong with arming bylaw officers, so long as they receive adequate training. Armed officers, provide a safer environment for all concerned, and they also can be a great aid to civic law enforcement in times of crisis.


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