# Air CIC Prohibited from wearing CADPAT?



## Matt_Fisher (4 Oct 2007)

I just got an inquiry from an Air CIC officer asking if we could provide OD combats, as he states that Air Element CIC officers are prohibited from wearing CF issued CADPAT combats.  

Is there any background to this? I find it quite bewildering, in that Air Command pers are authorized to wear CADPAT as appropriate, so you'd assume that such policy would also apply to Air CIC?


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## geo (4 Oct 2007)

CIC Prohibited from wearing CADPAT?  CADPAT combats are issued to them so, they can't be prohibited.  When they are authorised to wear em is another thing altogether.

in LFQA, Cadets fall under the authority of the Army.  There may be Air & Sea Cadets, but they all work under the umbrella of the Army.  

That having been said, it is possible that the Cadets regional HQ has determined that CADPAT combats will not be the "dress of the day" in their area.  DEUs may be deemed "dress of the day" and the combat uniform relegated to "field" dress.

Don't think OD combats would solve your CIC officer's problems


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## Matt_Fisher (4 Oct 2007)

Geo,

Here's the inquiry that I got, which I've sanitized for the anonymity of the author:

_"I thought I would update you on the Cadpat situation out here on the prairies. It is forbidden for all air CIC and cadets  to wear cadpat at anytime. We had to turn ours in and if we have our own we still cannot wear it. We are allowed to wear the old green combats (mine were issued in '85 in Germany so you can imagine how they fit now) but they are getting harder to find.  As for Army cadets I cannot tell you for sure but it is my belief that they cannot wear cadpat either."_

I can see how it would make sense that DEU be worn for training nights, but the inquiry was based around what is appropriate for Air CIC officers to wear for field exercises.  

I've sent  an inquiry on this subject to Chief Reserves and Cadets, so once I get an answer, I'll post it.


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## geo (4 Oct 2007)

Thanks for the update Matt
To date it hasn't been an issue here.  There is an armoury located in my back yard - Really... From my kitchen window I can see what goes on in the Orderly room and the Ops WOs offices.
Cadet CIC officers are still wearing their CADPAT on most training nights so it's either a regional CIC thing that will either spread across the country or die out in the prairies.

I know that there was some grumbling when the CIC officers did start receiving the CADPAT.  Some got it before most reservists got theirs.  The question of what do they need the CADPAT for was brought up early in the discussion.

There have been some moves to "demilitarize" the cadets over the years.... bring them somewhat into line with the Boy Scouts movement.

Keep me advised - this is an interesting sit


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## Sloaner (4 Oct 2007)

At pressent, the Air element CIC Officers are only entitled to their DEU's.  While employed at a cadet summer training centre or employed with an Army cadet unit they may draw the Army Operational entitlement equal to what the Army CIC officers are given, but it is to be returned when no longer serving within that estabilshment.  That being said, it has often been the case that CIC Air officers have been issued with combat clothing anyway by their support units because of the recognition of the need to conduct some outdoors training and the DEU is just not apprpriate.  I have heard that a directive was put forward from 1 CAD to not issue combats to CIC Air officers, but I haven't actually seen it.  The Sea element CIC officers can obtain NCD's for their duties and the Army element is entitled to basic operational clothing and equipment from scale D01301, but that is all.  The while so employed clause not withstanding, it is often true that Air CIC officers are required to provide their own appropriate field equipment.  I would be interested in reading what you get back from D Cadets on the issue though.


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## navymich (4 Oct 2007)

Sloaner said:
			
		

> The Sea element CIC officers can obtain NCD's for their duties...



The Navy CIC officers that I work with have all been issued Cadpat.  When I see them next, I'll have to ask what their scale of issue is.


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## Gho57rid3r (4 Oct 2007)

airmich said:
			
		

> The Navy CIC officers that I work with have all been issued Cadpat.  When I see them next, I'll have to ask what their scale of issue is.



It's interesting that you say that Ma'am, being a Navy CIC Officer I have repeatedly asked and requested Cadpat on a number of different occasions.  I was told that NCD's are all that we are entitled to, as well when conducting outdoor field exercises we are to wear our NCD's with our parade boots.  Wearing of NCD's / parade boots while camping, hiking or any outdoor activity is an adventure in itself (LOL).  NCD's do have a time and a place and would not like to stop using them, just not while camping etc. Although This may not be an issue anymore in the near future with the new role out of the cadet program Navy cadets are loosing outdoor adventure training in lieu of an extra sail weekend, I'm not sure if it has been determined if the CO's optional will allow for camping, or outdoor training but if it doesn't then we truly wont have a need for Cadpat then.


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## navymich (4 Oct 2007)

Gho57rid3r:  With what you have said, I will definitely get back to you on what I find out on Friday.  It is sounding between this, and the other situations mentioned in this thread, that it is a district and/or provincial decision making.  (pssst, btw I'm not a ma'am )


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## medaid (4 Oct 2007)

Okay... I've got a question and Vern can answer this probably... WHAT happened to ALL the CAG kit that we turned in? If CIC requires field clothing, why can't they wear the old CAG stuff? I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that CIC does NOT require CADPAT kit. They are NOT operational and hence operation equipment and clothing are not needed at all for them. There should still be plenty o that CAG stuff left shouldn't there? Not to mention we all had to turn in our CAG Gore-tex and fleece amongst others, instead of selling them off, why don't we give it to the CIC?


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## Gho57rid3r (4 Oct 2007)

MedTech I couldn't agree with you more, I hope not to offend others that are CIC Army.  But when CIC officers were being issued Cadpat before F/T Reg and Res that just seemed wrong.  As for the wearing of the old uniforms I don't see how that would be inappropriate, but then again what I don't know could be a lot.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Neill McKay (4 Oct 2007)

Gho57rid3r said:
			
		

> MedTech I couldn't agree with you more, I hope not to offend others that are CIC Army.  But when CIC officers were being issued Cadpat before F/T Reg and Res that just seemed wrong.



Maybe it was, but how many years ago was that?  Is there anybody still waiting for their issue of CadPat?  Enough already.



> As for the wearing of the old uniforms I don't see how that would be inappropriate, but then again what I don't know could be a lot.



CIC officers are Canadian Forces members and should wear current-pattern Canadian Forces uniforms.

[quote author=MedTech]They are NOT operational and hence operation equipment and clothing are not needed at all for them.[/quote]

The issue of operational vs. non-operational is irrelevant: combats are now worn as daily garrison dress by CF members of all stripes in offices, classrooms, and everywhere else.

If another reason is necessary, it's that the old pattern combats are no longer being produced and you can only go on issuing used uniforms from existing stock for so long before running into problems with sizing and such.  There are something close to 7000 CIC officers in the Canadian Forces spread out over the country.  It would be a serious logistical challenge to maintain enough various sizes of a uniform that is no longer being produced in each location necessary to provide for issues and exchanges.


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## Dipstick (4 Oct 2007)

That this is even still an issue boggles my mind...  To tell one subcomponent/trade in the CF that they can't wear the officially-sanctioned field uniform of the Canadian Forces, and direct them to the local surplus store bargain-bin is absurd.  As commissioned officers of the CF (and, anyone's individual prejudice aside, we can surely all agree that that's exactly what they are), they should be wearing the same uniform as the rest of us.  I agree with Neill - enough already.


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## medaid (4 Oct 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> The issue of operational vs. non-operational is irrelevant: combats are now worn as daily garrison dress by CF members of all stripes in offices, classrooms, and everywhere else.


Navy does NOT wear CADPAT, unles their members are directly supporting ground ops or working with land/air elements everyday. We're still in NCDs. The AF only switched to CADPAT for its ground crew and land based personnel because it was much easier on the logistical side of things. 



			
				Dipstick said:
			
		

> That this is even still an issue boggles my mind...  To tell one subcomponent/trade in the CF that they can't wear the officially-sanctioned field uniform of the Canadian Forces, and direct them to the local surplus store bargain-bin is absurd.  As commissioned officers of the CF (and, anyone's individual prejudice aside, we can surely all agree that that's exactly what they are), they should be wearing the same uniform as the rest of us.  I agree with Neill - enough already.



Indeed my friend. FIELD UNIFORM. Yup, you got it mate. FIELD. CIC Air and Navy officers conduct how many FIELD related exercises per year? I'm exlcuding Army because like Neil said that is their dress of the day and could not be changed. However, CIC Air and Navy officers RARELY have to wear field uniforms except when they are on ex. So, fine, I think they should be issued field uniforms. CADPAT? Sure, knock your socks off. All 3 sets? No, not even close. You can have 2. If one gets wet you have another set. Besides no CIC is rarely ever 'deployed' into the field for more then 2 days at a time anyways. CADPAT Gore-tex and fleece? No. Not until the rest of the CF get them and that means RegF and PRes of ALL elements that entitles it. Bush cap? Sure. MkIIIs? Definetly! WWB? No. When does this list end? 

I don't know I'm just being cynical. Sorry. Even though the times of CIC being issued CADPAT and WWB have passed, there are some who still harbour ill feelings towards them. Yes, they are commissioned officers (feelings aside) of the CF and they do deserve to be properly kitted out, however, they should be the LOWEST priority. Entitlement to equipment should be ONLY what is suitable for their tasks. So mortar gloves and CADPAT gloves? Not really needed right?


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## Dipstick (4 Oct 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Indeed my friend. FIELD UNIFORM. Yup, you got it mate. FIELD. CIC Air and Navy officers conduct how many FIELD related exercises per year? I'm exlcuding Army because like Neil said that is their dress of the day and could not be changed. However, CIC Air and Navy officers RARELY have to wear field uniforms except when they are on ex. So, fine, I think they should be issued field uniforms. CADPAT? Sure, knock your socks off. All 3 sets? No, not even close. You can have 2. If one gets wet you have another set. Besides no CIC is rarely ever 'deployed' into the field for more then 2 days at a time anyways. CADPAT Gore-tex and fleece? No. Not until the rest of the CF get them and that means RegF and PRes of ALL elements that entitles it. Bush cap? Sure. MkIIIs? Definetly! WWB? No. When does this list end?
> 
> I don't know I'm just being cynical. Sorry. Even though the times of CIC being issued CADPAT and WWB have passed, there are some who still harbour ill feelings towards them. Yes, they are commissioned officers (feelings aside) of the CF and they do deserve to be properly kitted out, however, they should be the LOWEST priority. Entitlement to equipment should be ONLY what is suitable for their tasks. So mortar gloves and CADPAT gloves? Not really needed right?



I don't at all disagree with you.  What I disagree with is your earlier position that they should be roaming around in the old OG107 stuff that everyone else turned in long ago; that they're somehow unworthy of wearing the same uniform the rest of us wear.  A couple of shirts and pants, MkIII boots, and perhaps a funny hat are all they need.  The array of uniforms I've seen on CIC officers in the field would blow your mind - old garrison jackets, DEU sweaters and scarves, all with CF rank insignia and beret.  This is easily avoided if basic (and current) combat clothing is made available to them, allowing them to look the part regardless of where they may be.


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## medaid (4 Oct 2007)

Dipstick said:
			
		

> I don't at all disagree with you.  What I disagree with is your earlier position that they should be roaming around in the old OG107 stuff that everyone else turned in long ago; that they're somehow unworthy of wearing the same uniform the rest of us wear.  A couple of shirts and pants, MkIII boots, and perhaps a funny hat are all they need.  The array of uniforms I've seen on CIC officers in the field would blow your mind - old garrison jackets, DEU sweaters and scarves, all with CF rank insignia and beret.  This is easily avoided if basic (and current) combat clothing is made available to them, allowing them to look the part regardless of where they may be.



Agreed. Maybe after that we can stop having ill feelings bout them


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## Franko (4 Oct 2007)

Matt, some of the policies that are being talked about here are actually enforced from the person's ACO and higher, not from the LFWA Comd net.

The cadet world is a bit different not only from the CF but varies from command area to command area.

Policies on the east coast are different from the west coast. Air, Navy and Army CIC have different scale of issues as well. Then there are the different ACOs on top of that.

If it's not allowed in the prairies, then it's not. He's going to have to do his homework and look it up and make some official inquiries to get some resolution to it.

I've run into this instance before IRT weapons, dress regs and other such things and the differences from LFAA to LFCA are in someways 180 degrees opposite.

The ACO wanted it a certain way and after going the official route and getting some facts straight IRT affiliated units and dress regs for parades and the like, they made changes.

Now getting into DEU on training night and combats on weekends for field exercises. Makes sense and I'm sure that everyone here can agree that it's appropriate.

Navy have their way and there is no way of changing it unless you make a case and present it higher. Same goes for the Air Force.

As for it being either OD green combats or CADPAT, there really isn't any justification for that if there is no longer any OD in the system to issue to the CIC. They should be issued CADPAT upon turn in of the OD.

I'm sure Vern will be along to shed some more light on this. She's dealt with this before I'm sure.

I'll get in touch with a couple of higher ups in the cadet world in Ottawa and get the skinny on this for you and post it here for all to see.

Regards


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## Wolfmann (4 Oct 2007)

airmich said:
			
		

> The Navy CIC officers that I work with have all been issued Cadpat.  When I see them next, I'll have to ask what their scale of issue is.



Official word from both Lt(N) Trucotte, Sea Training Officer for RCSU (Regional Cadet Support Unit) Central Region is that CADPAT is to only be worn for  RCIS activities while on course or while employed at a CSTC. The CWO for the Region has also made this quite clear. 

While a higher or different authority may authorize it within scale of issue, or otherwise, our chain of command has spoken. Of course they have no issues with OD/OG107 being worn, or wearing NCD's in the field, with the new Cadet Program Update there will be no support outdoor adventure training, and most to all Sea Cadet activities should be in a "maritime" environment, or water based. 

This in effect for all Area Detachments.


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2007)

Answer:

*Air CIC are entitled to 2 sets Cadpat, merged*.

I'll send you the scale ref tomorrow Matt.

Vern


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2007)

There might be a disconnect.

Both Land & Air CIC officers are entitled to be issued 2 sets of Cadpat, TW (merged pattern for Air element) onto their clothing docs as a normal issue.

SEA enviornmental CIC officers are NOT entitled to cadpat as part of their kit. Authorized cadpat dress for the Naval CIC officers is restricted to times when they are employed within a Cadet Summer Training Facility. It will be issued on a Temp Loan basis via DND638 (vice issued to their clothing docs) and will be turned in to the Camp QM shop to out-clear.

Authorized dress of the day for Land & Air pers is: Cadpat

I'll pull up the CIC scale tomorrow at work after my ruck march. Perhaps they've changed it in the past week and forgot to tell us suppies about it??


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2007)

Sloaner said:
			
		

> At pressent, the Air element CIC Officers are only entitled to their DEU's.  While employed at a cadet summer training centre or employed with an Army cadet unit they may draw the Army Operational entitlement equal to what the Army CIC officers are given, but it is to be returned when no longer serving within that estabilshment.  That being said, it has often been the case that CIC Air officers have been issued with combat clothing anyway by their support units because of the recognition of the need to conduct some outdoors training and the DEU is just not apprpriate.  I have heard that a directive was put forward from 1 CAD to not issue combats to CIC Air officers, but I haven't actually seen it.  The Sea element CIC officers can obtain NCD's for their duties and the Army element is entitled to basic operational clothing and equipment from scale D01301, but that is all.  The while so employed clause not withstanding, it is often true that Air CIC officers are required to provide their own appropriate field equipment.  I would be interested in reading what you get back from D Cadets on the issue though.



Actually, it was the habit of me (at that supporting clothing stores) to issue AIR CIC officers cadpat merged ... because they WERE entitled to it by scale. 

CTS likes to play strict control on "their babies" ... you think they'd just let us issue it to non-entitled people for the hell of it?? No way Jose.

So, if this is a NEW directive from 1 CAD ... it will be an ammendment to the Scale of Entitlement that removes the authority of Sup Techs to issue these items to Air CIC officers. They were still entitled by that scale last week.

I'll check tomorrow.


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2007)

airmich said:
			
		

> The Navy CIC officers that I work with have all been issued Cadpat.  When I see them next, I'll have to ask what their scale of issue is.



There is none.  

Unless. of course, they are on a long-term contract in a position which requires them to wear it. That, with those changes a couple years ago, needs to be a position role in direct support of the CCM. IIRC, there's a thread in this forum somewhere talking about the axe coming down to cease and desist the long-term employment of CIC officers in positions which were not supporting the CCM.


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2007)

> The Sea element CIC officers can obtain NCD's for their duties and the Army element is entitled to basic operational clothing and equipment from scale D01301, but that is all.



And, we'll clarify this while we are at it. 

Land CIC Officers are NOT kitted under scale D01301. If they were, they'd have rucks, TVs, WW Boots, helmets ... yadda yadda yadda.

That is the Land Force Operational Field Equipment and Entitlement Scale. It is applicable to all personnel of the RegF and *Primary* ResF employed in Land positions directly supporting Land Operations (that includes blue, black, green and purple pers if they are posted into an entitled CLS billet). 

CIC scales of entitlement are not one in the same; they are not in employed in operational positions supporting the Land Force.


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## Sloaner (4 Oct 2007)

Thanks Vern, perhaps we've gotten it wrong along the way.  I know that the D01301 clothing only is what has been taught so far so any clarrification is appreciated.


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## armyvern (4 Oct 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Okay... I've got a question and Vern can answer this probably... WHAT happened to ALL the CAG kit that we turned in? If CIC requires field clothing, why can't they wear the old CAG stuff? I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that CIC does NOT require CADPAT kit. They are NOT operational and hence operation equipment and clothing are not needed at all for them. There should still be plenty o that CAG stuff left shouldn't there? Not to mention we all had to turn in our CAG Gore-tex and fleece amongst others, instead of selling them off, why don't we give it to the CIC?



Sorry, missed this one.

All the OG107 combats were issued off to the cadets. Every single set that we took back in Gagetown (thousands of sets -- just from CAP candidiates when we converted them!!) went to Camp Argonaut and some back to 25CFSD for re-distribution to other CSTCs.

CIC are now part of the ResF, although they are not PRes. As part of the ResF ... they do have entitlements to cadpat. 

CIC = Cadpat. Cadet = CAG. 

CIC does not = cadet.

Cadets are part of nothing -- no component.

CIC are. That's the difference.


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## armyvern (5 Oct 2007)

Gho57rid3r said:
			
		

> MedTech I couldn't agree with you more, I hope not to offend others that are CIC Army.  But when CIC officers were being issued Cadpat before F/T Reg and Res that just seemed wrong.  As for the wearing of the old uniforms I don't see how that would be inappropriate, but then again what I don't know could be a lot.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



Air CIC officers did get it (their merged cadpat) before some of the RegF here got cadpat. Why??

Because the RegF & ResF around here belong to the Army, hence CTS cadpat (different style than the merged issued to AF personnel --although we all have the same stuff now) was what they were entitled to. This place, being a Pri 6 trg location was the lowest of the Army's priorities for issue.

The Air CIC cadpat was issued as part of the Air Force CEMS (Clothing & Equipment Millineum Standard) Project. Two different beasts ... ergo the difference. The AF also purchased enough to kit all of the Blue types out all at once ... unlike the Army who phased in the purchasing and issue.

That's why Air CIC officers did indeed get their CEMS cadpat issued before some Land RegF & ResF personnel did. But, I can tell you that Air CIC officers were the last ones to be issued it by the Air Force. We sized all the Air Ops pers here locally, and we also sized the Air CIC, sending our orders to the CEMS project ... they distributed to us here in Gagetown, and we issued ... RegF & ARAF first ... Air CIC last.

That's the same way the Army did it ... they just took a lot longer to buy it and get it into the system.


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## armyvern (5 Oct 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> If another reason is necessary, it's that the old pattern combats are no longer being produced and you can only go on issuing used uniforms from existing stock for so long before running into problems with sizing and such.  There are something close to 7000 CIC officers in the Canadian Forces spread out over the country.  It would be a serious logistical challenge to maintain enough various sizes of a uniform that is no longer being produced in each location necessary to provide for issues and exchanges.



Neill,

I know we've been through this before. I will assure you once again that there are thousands of sets of OG107 combats STILL in the system, being held on charge by CSTCs ... and a great many of those sets are in mint, manufacturer sealed boxes. Thousands.

7000 CIC officers is diddly squat. Clothing Stores here is a pretty small building ... and we held OG107 combats, AF CEMS cadpat, CTS cadpat TW, 3 enviornmental DEUs, Cash sales, and shitloads of operational Army kit ... for the 8500 personnel we support just out of this building in all the size ranges!! There's methods to figuring out how many of each size you should hold .. "usage rates." That's what clothing stores does. It always has. Including the one supporting those CIC officers accross the country.

It doesn't suddenly become a logistical nightmare to hold uniforms in various sizes just because it may be Olive drab in colour vice cadpat, we've always held many types of uniforms in all the size ranges. But heck, now that the DEU is gone ... the supporting clothing stores near you has lots of room for some OG on the shelf if 1 CAD has indeed killed the Air CIC entitlement to cadpat.

It'll just get recalled from CSTCs to issue to the CICs. I'll check the scales in the morning. 

Edited to address this:



> The issue of operational vs. non-operational is irrelevant: combats are now worn as daily garrison dress by CF members of all stripes in offices, classrooms, and everywhere else.



Operational/non-operational certainly IS relevant. And, NDHQ has deemed it such -- they have deemed that the CIC are part of the Reserve Force, but NOT part of the PRIMARY ResF. The Primary ResF is an operational Force, and you are not. That is a fact, and that is why your entitlements are different and why you have your own scale of entitlement quite seperate from the RegF and the Primary ResF. That's why you are only entitled to 2 sets ... and NO gortex. They are not the same thing ... at all ... and it is relevant.

RegF members and PRes working with cadpat as their DoD in classrooms, garrison, and everywhere else are doing such in performance of their daily duties. Since when is wearing a uniform a daily duty required by a CIC officer?? Yes, there are cases where some CIC officers ARE wearing a uniform daily (a very very select few of them) when on long-term FULL-time employment supporting the CCM -- in those cases (see my response to AirMich) they then fall under another scale of entitlement, NOT the CIC scale. Yes indeed, there is a BIG difference.


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## Sloaner (5 Oct 2007)

Here is the listing from scale D01301 pertinent to the CIC.  I think it explains the conditions properly.  Mentions nothing about normal entitlement to AIR CIC Officers working outside the ACSTC.  In our supply course the Air CIC scale is limited to D01103, and it does not indicate any entitlement for the CADPAT clothing merged or not.  Of course there are always moinor errors or omissions that are unintentional.

Note 2 (g)
"This scale is applicable to all Army CIC personnel. Issues are to be made within the limits of sub-categories D01301AA, AB and AC (less CTS items) and only for items which are actually needed by the
individual for the performance of his duties. This scale is also applicable to Navy and Air CIC personnel selected to participate at a Army Cadet Summer Training Center when authorized by the Commanding
Officer of the Training Center. Items will be withdrawn on completion of Summer Training Centre duties.

Of course my reference could be old as well, and things can change.  Just trying to help.


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## Neill McKay (5 Oct 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I know we've been through this before. I will assure you once again that there are thousands of sets of OG107 combats STILL in the system, being held on charge by CSTCs ... and a great many of those sets are in mint, manufacturer sealed boxes. Thousands.



I don't recall having been through this before, but maybe we have.  Whatever amount of the stuff is in stores now, any product that is no longer manufactured will, sooner or later, run into supply problems -- just later than I would have guessed. 



> 7000 CIC officers is diddly squat. Clothing Stores here is a pretty small building ... and we held OG107 combats, AF CEMS cadpat, CTS cadpat TW, 3 enviornmental DEUs, Cash sales, and shitloads of operational Army kit ... for the 8500 personnel we support just out of this building in all the size ranges!! There's methods to figuring out how many of each size you should hold .. "usage rates." That's what clothing stores does. It always has. Including the one supporting those CIC officers accross the country.



Obviously I'm not a supply system SME, so I'm open to gaining some new knowledge on this, but it seems to me that providing a uniform -- in all the sizes necessary to outfit whoever might come through the door -- only worn by 7000 pers scattered all across the country (and therefore supported by many clothing stores) would present a bigger challenge than doing so in one building for 8500 pers who are all in the same place.  (If, in this hypothetical situation, the old-pattern combats were stored centrally and distributed through Clothing Online then the problem would disappear.  The model in my mind is similar to that used for other operational clothing, in which is held locally and it issued in person at clothing stores.)



> Operational/non-operational certainly IS relevant. And, NDHQ has deemed it such -- they have deemed that the CIC are part of the Reserve Force, but NOT part of the PRIMARY ResF. The Primary ResF is an operational Force, and you are not. That is a fact, and that is why your entitlements are different and why you have your own scale of entitlement quite seperate from the RegF and the Primary ResF. That's why you are only entitled to 2 sets ... and NO gortex. They are not the same thing ... at all ... and it is relevant.



Let me be clearer then: the fact that CIC officers do not typically work in an operational environment does not provide an argument to support their being issued former pattern, vice current pattern, uniforms, as the post to which I was replying seemed to suggest.



> RegF members and PRes working with cadpat as their DoD in classrooms, garrison, and everywhere else are doing such in performance of their daily duties. Since when is wearing a uniform a daily duty required by a CIC officer?? Yes, there are cases where some CIC officers ARE wearing a uniform daily (a very very select few of them) when on long-term FULL-time employment supporting the CCM -- in those cases (see my response to AirMich) they then fall under another scale of entitlement, NOT the CIC scale. Yes indeed, there is a BIG difference.



It's not relevant to my argument whether one works one, three, or six days a week.  I was thinking in terms of the environment: an office rather than the field.  The post to which I was replying suggested that CIC officers should not wear current-pattern combats because our work is not usually in an operational environment.  I was only pointing out that it's become normal for CF members in a wide variety of occupations to wear combats as their daily dress -- including members whose work is, like that of a CIC officer, primarily in an office or similar environment.


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## armyvern (5 Oct 2007)

Sloaner said:
			
		

> Here is the listing from scale D01301 pertinent to the CIC.  I think it explains the conditions properly.  Mentions nothing about normal entitlement to AIR CIC Officers working outside the ACSTC.  In our supply course the Air CIC scale is limited to D01103, and it does not indicate any entitlement for the CADPAT clothing merged or not.  Of course there are always moinor errors or omissions that are unintentional.
> 
> Note 2 (g)
> "This scale is applicable to all Army CIC personnel. Issues are to be made within the limits of sub-categories D01301AA, AB and AC (less CTS items) and only for items which are actually needed by the
> ...



Interestingy, they now appear to have indeed merged the ResF CIC of the Air and Navy into the land ops scale as you have laid out above and the Air CIC certainly seems to be entitled to cadpat only when employed within an *ARMY * CSTC as has always been the case for Naval CIC types.

MORE interesting than that however is the bracketed comment, which is in total condradiction to the "entitled while at ARMY CSTC" comment. This comment here:



> within the limits of sub-categories D01301AA, AB and AC *(less CTS items)*


 effectively states that there is NO entitlement to cadpat for ANY CIC personnel (even Land!!--employed in a CSTC or NOT) because cadpat _is _ *A CTS item*.

So, when this scale was merged ... errors were made and the new wording contradicts itself from one sentence to the next.

I'm going to contact the scale OPI to point it out and ask for "clear language" input onto the scale.

Interestingly also, the D01103 (vice the D01*301* Land Ops scale), which is the Air Force Basic clothing Reg & Res Force Scale has had it's "AD" section removed saved for a duffle bag. AD was the "Base Dress entitlement" section. Right now, I can't find a single scale on the system showing *any* entitlement to *any* cadpat for *any* Air DEU types -- Reg, PRes, or Res CIC. So -- the Air Force is indeed in the midst of sorting through their scales.

I'll keep an eye on them and will update here accordingly.


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## Froger (6 Oct 2007)

So what is the scale of Clothing for the Land CIC officers then. As I have seen some with all the kit issued to them. As we are not able to look at the issue list that you are talking about.


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2007)

LaFrog said:
			
		

> So what is the scale of Clothing for the Land CIC officers then. As I have seen some with all the kit issued to them. As we are not able to look at the issue list that you are talking about.



D01301 ... Land Reg & Res and it's associated scale scetions. "AA", "AB", "AC", etc. It needs to be read in conjunction with the scale "Notes", some of which rule out it's issue to CIC officers, or restrict the qty that CIC officers are entitled to.

If you have DIN access, you can access Scales for clothing, checklists, CFFET checklist & scales, MASTs, etc. Do a search for: "CFSS Web Query Tool", it should come up as your first hit. I believe the instructions for how to enter and use are provided at that link.

Vern


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## Froger (6 Oct 2007)

No DIN access at all. I'm with a small town unit.


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## armyvern (6 Oct 2007)

LaFrog said:
			
		

> No DIN access at all. I'm with a small town unit.



PM inbound.


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## Froger (9 Oct 2007)

Thank you for the information.


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## Sloaner (9 Oct 2007)

You should be able to find everything you are looking for on scales for the CIC in the CIC learning Centre on CadetNet.


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## Froger (10 Oct 2007)

I did my RSO Small Bore a few weeks back, on an outdoor range. The Air CIC officers that did not have there own personal combats (OD) where out there in 3C.


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## Sloaner (11 Oct 2007)

That is consistent with the Orders of dress for the course according to thje matrix I've seen from RCIS.  You do not need combats to administer a range.


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## Froger (11 Oct 2007)

I would not want to be the one out there in my 3C on any out door active. If they have field ex's in the program then, the right colthing and equipment should be supply to do the job at hand.


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## D. Nicholson (20 Oct 2007)

Disregard... PM'd instead


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## opie_cic (20 Nov 2007)

I just finished up my BOQ in Borden.  I'm Air.  We were in work dress, which now consist of dress pants and short sleeved shirt. (though we transitioned into the sweater as well, since it went over the time change).  The poly pants formally worn with work dress are no longer issued.  In the field, we wore CADPAT if we had it, and if not it was grey overalls.  

I have CADPAT, it was issued to me here in North Bay.  I've got all the gear CIC is entitled to have.  However I've only recently moved here, and my experience is not every supply is the same.  North Bay is totally cool, and its an Air Force town, so that may have played a roll.  However, my ASU used to be London.  In my expeience, as well as that of others, they are not big fans of CIC, and they have no problem showing it.

Cadets themselves are forbidden from wearing CADPAT.  They are not members of the CF, and cannot wear something that looks like it.  Cadets are permitted to wear OD's, since it is no longer the uniform of the CF.

CIC Officers, are members of the CF.  We are entitled.


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## Signalman150 (20 Nov 2007)

Okay......<puts on hockey helmet and shoulder pads>....I'll throw in my two cents.  This has nothing to do with the appropriate scales of issue, or what any HQ says about who should be wearing what.  My response to the whole debate is strictly emotional.

I am the son of an RCAF airman, a former Air Cadet, and ex Air CIL (CIC).  I am also a former Infantryman and Sig w/ the PRes (fifteen years). So I have several points of view regarding this issue.

What I want to say is this...<Closes eyes tight, and tenses for the dog-pile>....why in h*** are all the CIC Air types so damn keen to wear CADPAT?  Back in the proverbial "day" it was a matter of pride for Air types (whether, Reg F, Res F, CIC or Cdt) to distance themselves as much as possible from anything remotely Army.  This was particularly true in the dark era just after Unification when all Blue jobs were supposed to look like Gravel Crunchers.  We went to great lengths to do anything we could to maintain some semblance of Air Force identity.  Wearing combats, unless one was actually "in the field" was simply NOT ON.

If CIC officers are indeed in a field environment, then by all means they should be wearing CADPAT; no argument.  What I'm reading here is that a number of Air CIC are upset that they can't wear it as a Garrison Dress.  Of course, referring to an AIR FORCE uniform as Garrison Dress is--IMHO--an oxymoron.

Notwithstanding Scales of Issue--and thank heavens for the likes of ArmyVern who can tender the official word on such things--I fail to understand why CIC would even WANT to wear an army combat uniform for anything other than being down and dirty in the mud.  If you are at your Air Cadet unit, there is no reason for CADPAT or any other "field" style uniform.  There is nothing--NOTHING--going on at squadron parade nights that requires combat clothing. In those days--before I joined the PRes--the LAST thing I wanted was to look like a Pongo.

Now here I am 30 years later, and grateful for the opportunity I had as an army type to don the old olive drab Combats, (I was out long before the advent of CADPAT), but I cannot understand the desire of CIC Air Officers to wear what is without a doubt an "army" uniform.  Aside from the fact that CADPAT looks "way cool", and praying that their motive is NOT just so they can look like a bunch of lean-mean-killing-machines, I am at a loss to understand the angst.


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## catalyst (20 Nov 2007)

+1


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## opie_cic (20 Nov 2007)

Signalman,

I see where youre coming from there, with regards to trying to differentiate between the three elements.  However, its all the Canadian Forces.  keeping the traditions are important, but regarding what is worn to get work done, that should be more an issue of funtionality.

Additionally, the 2nd Gen CADPAT that Army uses, is in fact, Air Spec.  The buttons are hidden to prevent any FOD issues.  So really, Army is wearing out stuff.


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## armyvern (20 Nov 2007)

opie_cic said:
			
		

> I just finished up my BOQ in Borden.  I'm Air.  We were in work dress, which now consist of dress pants and short sleeved shirt. (though we transitioned into the sweater as well, since it went over the time change).  The poly pants formally worn with work dress are no longer issued.  In the field, we wore CADPAT if we had it, and if not it was grey overalls.
> 
> I have CADPAT, it was issued to me here in North Bay.  I've got all the gear CIC is entitled to have.  However I've only recently moved here, and my experience is not every supply is the same.  North Bay is totally cool, and its an Air Force town, so that may have played a roll.  However, my ASU used to be London.  In my expeience, as well as that of others, they are not big fans of CIC, and they have no problem showing it.
> 
> ...



To clarify. You were not in work dress. It doesn't exist anymore. You were in your DEU dress pants and the short sleeve shirt ... this dress is called DEU 3b.

Read this whole thread ... seeing as how you JUST got out of BMQ and just got to North Bay.

You'll find that your quick tarring of ASU London with your very broad brush strokes is NOT warranted. A few posts before yours ... even specificly mention that the Air CIC entitlement to cadpat had CEASED as per the scale of issue. Therefore ... even North Bay wouldn't have been able to issue it to CIC Officers at that point in time. It was NOT London being "CIC unfriendly." 

The scales are now updated ... and guess what? The entitlement is on them ... so even London would now be legally able to issue them to you.

North Bay being an Air Force town played ZERO role -- it's all about the scales of entitlement; and, quite frankly, I am getting sick to death of people such as yourself who make posts that insinuate that the reasons you don't or can't get something is simply because someone felt like screwing around the CIC today, or the Primary res F today, or the infantry today, or yadda yadda yadda.

Short?? If you are entitled by scale -- you'll get it.

If you're not entitled by scale -- you won't get it.

And, as this thread points out, those scales are always evolving and changing. I don't get paid simply to be an asshole and say no .... "just because" and neither does a single other Supply Tech I know. If we are able to legally issue you something, and it's in stock, and it's not ops restricted ... you'll damn well get it.

And to clarify further the bold bit:

CIC members are indeed members of the ResF, but they are not members of the Primary ResF (therefore the CIC are entitled to different items than the Primary ResF or the RegF -- much as the PRes have differing entitlements from the Reg F), and, as I pointed out above, AIR CIC officers have recently gone through a time period where they were NOT entitled to cadpat (even though the entitlement remained on the scales of issue for LAND CIC Officers), that was what was being discussed in this thread. 

Please read the whole thread before you jump into it with unwarranted, uniformed, and incorrect comments and observations.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Nov 2007)




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## Gho57rid3r (20 Nov 2007)

I would fist off like to say a thank you to Signalman150 and ArmyVern for well thought out delivered statements that I could not possibly disagree with.  Recently I took BOQ and earlier this year I took 1/2 of BOTC ( long story on that one).  After returning from BOQ I had considered making a post about supply techs, but for what ever reason decided not to.  Now I feel compelled to share my experience with supply techs at 17th wing in Winnipeg.  All and I do mean all the CF members there have treated with the utmost respect since day one.  They have always tried to provide me with the most update info on what I can acquire and have sometimes even gone beyond that.  In return when I ever have a chance I drop in with coffee and donuts for there whole company to say thanks and keep up the great work.  Even though all the CF members in there were NCM I have always approached and called them all Sir and Ma'am, at first this confused them and they all politely corrected me on it.  Now they enjoy the respect that I pay them.

So remember we are all on the same team, treat them as you would want to be treated  If you really think they are going out of there way to screw you around just b/c your a CIC, they may just be having a bad day as we can all have or more probable YOUR NOT ENTITLED TO IT and if any one would know they would.

I SAY A BIG THANKS TO ALL THE SUPPLY TECH'S THAT HELPED ASSIST ME IN PASSING BOQ, AND HELP ME PASS ALL MY INSPECTIONS.  The nice thing was I was the only Naval officer on course.(he he)

By the way I have never had any issues getting any Navy supplies from the supply techs and it is primarily a Airforce / Army base.


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## Neill McKay (20 Nov 2007)

Gho57rid3r said:
			
		

> Even though all the CF members in there were NCM I have always approached and called them all Sir and Ma'am, at first this confused them and they all politely corrected me on it.  Now they enjoy the respect that I pay them.



Respect or not, NCMs are not supposed to be called sir or ma'am (except in the case of MWOs and CWOs, and then only by those of lower rank).  You should address them by their rank, and that in itself demonstrates your professional respect for them.

Your bringing in coffee and doughnuts is a very thoughtful gesture that others would do well to emulate.


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## medaid (20 Nov 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Respect or not, NCMs are not supposed to be called sir or ma'am (except in the case of MWOs and CWOs, and then only by those of lower rank).  You should address them by their rank, and that in itself demonstrates your professional respect for them.



You may at times address MWO and CWO as Mr. or failing all else address them properly by their appointment. 

Or address CPO2 and CPO1s as Chiefs  They don't mind that. Don't mix it up with their AF or an Army counterparts though. Sometimes they don't like that...


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## aesop081 (20 Nov 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Don't mix it up with their AF..............  counterparts though. Sometimes they don't like that...



In the MH and LRP worlds, we call our MWOs and CWO  "chief"


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## medaid (20 Nov 2007)

Roger. Just recalled an old AF CWO once told me to never ever cal him chief. Wans't sure, so I said maybe.


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## aesop081 (20 Nov 2007)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Roger. Just recalled an old AF CWO once told me to never ever cal him chief. Wans't sure, so I said maybe.



Dont forget that the MH and LRP comunities get their heritage from the Navy, hence the "chief"......the rest of the AF i dont know about.


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## Neill McKay (20 Nov 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> In the MH and LRP worlds, we call our MWOs and CWO  "chief"



I didn't realize that.  The Naval Airman lives!


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## yoman (30 Nov 2007)

Just published on the RCSUE website. 



> As indicated at ref, Air Force CIC O will receive the CADPAT uniform.
> 2. All personal will receive three (3) uniforms (shirt and trousers). The following clothing items will be issued with the CADPAT uniform:
> 
> a. Boots of combat (1 x pair or 2 for permanent employee);
> ...


http://www.cadets.net/est/support/log/doc/Cadpat-CIC%20AIR_e.pdf


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## geo (30 Nov 2007)

from yoman's post
I should point out that it is only the commander of RCSU Eastern who has autjhorized the wear of Cadpat for local training.  RCSU Eastern looks after all blue, Green & Black cadet corps BUT, each branch might have it's own directives that somehow "overlap" RCSU instructions.

RCSU Commanders in Atlantic, Central, Prairie & western regions might also have their own views on this matter....


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## Neill McKay (30 Nov 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> I should point out that it is only the commander of RCSU Eastern who has autjhorized the wear of Cadpat for local training.



I wonder if local training refers to parade nights?  That would be an odd time to see combats worn (especially in Eastern Region, given some other policies in effect there).


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## yoman (30 Nov 2007)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> I wonder if local training refers to parade nights?  That would be an odd time to see combats worn (especially in Eastern Region, given some other policies in effect there).



Some of my officers wear CADPAT on parade nights so I would assume that's what its referring too.


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## geo (1 Dec 2007)

Local training = parade nights.


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## D. Nicholson (7 Dec 2007)

That's more CADPAT than CIC Army are entitled too!


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## SupersonicMax (7 Dec 2007)

I'll gladly give my CADPATs entitlement to any CIC who wants it   I hate that uniform!

Max


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## yoman (7 Dec 2007)

D. Nicholson said:
			
		

> That's more CADPAT than CIC Army are entitled too!



Why would Army CIC be entitled to more CADPAT then their Air Force counterparts? The only "logical" reason that I could think of would be that they go on more FTX's then Air Cadets do. Can somebody shed some light on how many FTX's Army Cadet Corps go on per year (on average).


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## George Wallace (7 Dec 2007)

Haven't we covered Cadets and CADPAT and CADETPAT enough already?    :


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## Zoomie (7 Dec 2007)

yoman said:
			
		

> Why would Army CIC be entitled to more CADPAT then their Air Force counterparts?



LWCC is not field attire - it is the work dress of the Airforce.  Everyone in the Airforce wears this uniform - it is not special.

There should be no-one in the RegF or PRes Airforce that has not yet been issued this gear - I suspect that the CIC might start receiving the rain gear too - watch and shoot.


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Haven't we covered Cadets and CADPAT and CADETPAT enough already?    :



I think so maybe the old lock should be placed on this topic soon?


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## yoman (7 Dec 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Haven't we covered Cadets and CADPAT and CADETPAT enough already?    :



We aren't talking about cadets and CADPAT or CADETPAT. We are talking about CIC officers and CADPAT.



			
				Zoomie said:
			
		

> LWCC is not field attire - it is the work dress of the Airforce.  Everyone in the Airforce wears this uniform - it is not special.
> 
> There should be no-one in the RegF or PRes Airforce that has not yet been issued this gear - I suspect that the CIC might start receiving the rain gear too - watch and shoot.



The discussion previous to me posting the link referring to RCSUE issuing CADPAT to CIC Air officers suggested that they (Air CIC) were not going to receive CADPAT.


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## medaid (7 Dec 2007)

We've talked about CADETS and CADPAT; CADETS and CADETPAT and CIC and CADPAT to DEATH already... 

It's a uniform. We all wear it. Lets move on.


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## aesop081 (7 Dec 2007)

:boring:

Lets just get CICPAT so the complaining can stop


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## Michael OLeary (7 Dec 2007)

Done and locked.

If someone actually comes up with a new regulation, order or CANFORGEN to post, then ask a staff member to open the thread.  Until then, wear what you get issued.  

Milnet.ca Staff


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