# Field photo's of 4CMBG



## larry Strong (12 Jun 2012)

Hi All

I am looking for photo's of 4 CMBG in the field on ex during the '80s. I would like both "on the move" and deployed if possible. I am about to start recreating - as time permits - the Bde for tabletop wargaming using Rapid Fire rules. I did search the forum, however nothing showed up.

Many thanks in advance for your help

Sincerely
Larry


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## larry Strong (14 Jun 2012)

apparantly there are no pictures available. No biggie.

What vehicles did the Blowpipe detatchments use?


Thanks
Larry


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## SeaKingTacco (16 Jun 2012)

5/4 ton trucks


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## larry Strong (16 Jun 2012)

Thanks for the info


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## Danjanou (16 Jun 2012)

Larry I have some. Not at home now when I do will scan /email them to you. Interested in these rules too.


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## larry Strong (16 Jun 2012)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Larry I have some. Not at home now when I do will scan /email them to you. Interested in these rules too.



Hello Danjanou


Many thanks, it is truly appreciated

Larry


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## larry Strong (20 Jun 2012)

Looking for some help here. I have a picture of 3 M 113's with TOW from 3 RCR out of the book Canada's NATO Brigade: A History

ACP125 Canadian Supplement  - in the fixed call sign section Infantry Bn has the Armoured Defense Plt as C/S 55 etc. These have the C/S 71 which acording to ACP125 is for Attd Sub-Unit Under Comd? what does this indicate?

Also how come they don't have CFR plates on them?


Many thanks
Larry


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## Edward Campbell (20 Jun 2012)

In the first iteration of fix call signs (1960s) Sp Coy elements were in C/S 7. It looked something like this:

7   - Bn A Ech/Sp Coy HQ
71 - A/Tk Pl                       ) 
72 - Pnr Pl                        }  I'm not sure I have the order right
73 - MG Pl                         )
74 - Mor Pl                           74 was certainly Mor Pl, I am 100% sure
75 - Maint Pl                         I think

HQ Coy had 0, 8 and 9

0A -       Bn CP
0B -       Bn Alt CP
0C -       Step Up CP (for those units, like 2RCR, that had one)
8 -         Recce Pl
81~       Ptl Dets
82~       Surv Dets
9 -         CO
9A -       DCO
9B -       Ops O
91 -       Sig O
91 A~ - Sig Pl Dets


Edit: typo


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## Edward Campbell (20 Jun 2012)

Re: CFR plates ... as I recall, maybe faulty, none of our armoured vehicles had those CFR plates. I'm not even sure there were any on our wheeled vehicles ... I'm trying to visualize my rover and I think it had no plate, but I'm officially old so ...


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## Old Sweat (20 Jun 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Re: CFR plates ... as I recall, maybe faulty, none of our armoured vehicles had those CFR plates. I'm not even sure there were any on our wheeled vehicles ... I'm trying to visualize my rover and I think it had no plate, but I'm officially old so ...



I don't recall plates on any of our military vehicles in CANFE (Canadian Army National Force Europe), but Edward and I served in Germany in the sixties. On my return to Canada to take the Artillery Staff Course in Shilo, I was a bit astounded to see Manitoba farm vehicle plates on the M113A1s at the school. The CFR plates, it seems to me, came in for vehicles in Canada in the late sixties or early seventies to standardize plates across the country. (There were hiccups. Typically 5 Brigade et al vehicles had two plates - CFR and Quebec - for quite a few years.)


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## George Wallace (20 Jun 2012)

In the early Eighties, only the B Vehicles had CFR Lic plates.  All AFVs had their CFR stenciled on in black paint, front left and right on M113 family, front left and right on turrets of Leopards, etc.  In the late Eighties and early Nineties, the CFR, and Tac signs, were changed from black to white.  Even in Canada, the CFR was stenciled in the same locations, but still only in black paint.   For instance, you will find it on the front left of the M113 under the Driver's hatch and on the right side under the exhaust.


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## larry Strong (20 Jun 2012)

Many thanks Gentlemen, it is greatly appreciated. When did they start mounting the TOW on the 113?


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## Edward Campbell (20 Jun 2012)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Many thanks Gentlemen, it is greatly appreciated. When did they start mounting the TOW on the 113?




I don't recall; I served in the field in the pre-TOW days, in the late '60s and early '70s, when we were replacing the 106mm recoilless rifle with with the (French) SS11B and ENTAC. I guess our experience with them confirmed our faith in ATGMs but, way down deep in my heart, I still have a soft spot for high velocity, _fire and forget_, anti-tank guns.


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## larry Strong (20 Jun 2012)

Thanks for that Edward 

Does anyone have a time line on the TOW missiles use in Canada, or when the C/S changed, so I could put some sort of date on this picture?


Many thanks
Larry


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## Ostrozac (21 Jun 2012)

I'm pretty sure Sean Maloney talks about the introduction of TOW missiles in his book "War Without Battles". In fact, that book will be extremely useful for your project. 

You should probably read "First Clash", too, which is a fictional account of the Canadian Brigade fighting WWIII, but I haven't read it so I can't recommend it. I only read "Team Yankee", which is a fictional account of a US Army M1 and M113 unit fighting in the 80's.


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## Old Sweat (21 Jun 2012)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Does anyone have a time line on the TOW missiles use in Canada, or when the C/S changed, so I could put some sort of date on this picture?



I had done some research yesterday, but part of it was inconclusive.

Anyway, the TOW entered service with the US Army in 1970 and came into Canadian service a few years later. I recall a conversation with the infantry lieutenant colonel who headed the DLR infantry section crica 1972. He said Treasury Board initially had objected to the TOW procurement as it could be used for offensive prurposes and Canada would only fight on the defence. Their rationale was that one of its stated roles was supporting counter-attacks. I could not make this sort of stuff up.

It must have entered service with the next couple of years because it was being taught in the Infantry School when I was posted into the Artillery School in 1974. In one of those brilliant moves that come back to bite us on the butt, in an effort to reduce the size of the training bill, the advanced anti-armour course was cut and the positions in the wing moved/deleted/retasked. The rationale was that TOW was so simple, it could be considered a "hey you" weapons system. Fast ahead to the 1980s when I was the Canadian Forces Liaison Officer at US Army Tradoc. There was a push to get a TOW simulator and I checked with the local industry rep from the "TOW company." He told me that the CF had the worst record for successful engagements in training of any of their foreign customers. The infantry shop at FMCHQ did not take kindly to the news and insisted it all could be solved with a simulator.  I got doing some more digging and found a young ex-armoured TDO who told me he had done a study of TOW results and the successes and failures had nothing to do with regiment, formation or access to training facilities. The battalions where the CO took an interest in his armoured defence platoon had a much better success rate than those where the platoon was relegated to the status of a necessary evil or a dumping ground. There was, of course, no stated minimum standard for armoured defence then, but that was the case for everything else at the time. Could I document this? H.ll no, but that is how I remember it, and I have a reputation for a very good memory. (Learning from and using the knowledge is another matter.) It's a bit of a sidetrack, but some of this might be useful.


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## larry Strong (21 Jun 2012)

Many thanks, much appreciated.

I guess were are left with the call sign then.

sincerely
Larry


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## larry Strong (21 Jun 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure Sean Maloney talks about the introduction of TOW missiles in his book "War Without Battles". In fact, that book will be extremely useful for your project.
> 
> You should probably read "First Clash", too, which is a fictional account of the Canadian Brigade fighting WWIII, but I haven't read it so I can't recommend it. I only read "Team Yankee", which is a fictional account of a US Army M1 and M113 unit fighting in the 80's.



Thanks for that. I will start looking for it. I have owned First Clash since it came out, it is pretty dog eared as I have read it countless times.

later
Larry


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## George Wallace (21 Jun 2012)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Many thanks, much appreciated.
> 
> I guess were are left with the call sign then.
> 
> ...







			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> In the first iteration of fix call signs (1960s) Sp Coy elements were in C/S 7. It looked something like this:
> 
> 7   - Bn A Ech/Sp Coy HQ
> 71 - A/Tk Pl                        )
> ...




Edward answered it to the best of his recollection, with C/S 71 being the Anti-Tank Platoon, who would be armed with the TOW.


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## larry Strong (21 Jun 2012)

Hello George 

I saw that thanks. I was wondering when they changed from 71 to 55.

Thanks
Larry


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## Edward Campbell (21 Jun 2012)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Hello George
> 
> I saw that thanks. I was wondering when they changed from 71 to 55.
> 
> ...




The change of fixed C/S occurred sometime after 1969/70.

My recollection is that when the brigade moved South, to Lahr/Baden, they found that the Americans did not use fixed c/s but we were unwilling to change ...


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## Danjanou (21 Jun 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The change of fixed C/S occurred sometime after 1969/70.
> 
> My recollection is that when the brigade moved South, to Lahr/Baden, they found that the Americans did not use fixed c/s but we were unwilling to change ...



Sounds about right as far as my addled mess tin afflcited memory serves. The pics I sent you Larry should show Mortar Pl 3 RCR as C/S 51/53 circa 1980.


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## exspy (21 Jun 2012)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Does anyone have a time line on the TOW missiles use in Canada, ...so I could put some sort of date on this picture?
> 
> Many thanks
> Larry



Larry,

From the annual DND publication 'Defence' for 1976 and 1977, I have extracted the following.  All details are those that were in effect as of the end of the Year of the volume.

For 1976: "_Deliveries of TOW missiles were completed in 1976 and operational and maintenance training for the crews is continuing_."

For 1977: "_In early 1977 the brigade (ie. 4 CMBG) received ... the TOW anti-tank weapon.  In early June 3 Mech Commando and 1 R22eR completed operational TOW training_."

From this you can easily say that the Brigade Group in Germany was operational with the TOW system by 1 Jul 1977.

As for mounting TOWs on APCs, in 1978 I attended a TOW firing camp at Camp Meaford with 1 RCR and watched them fire live missiles.  All of the launchers were mounted on APCs at this period of its use and I never saw it mounted, in Canadian service, on anything else.

I'm trying to find out more on this for you, and anything I find I'll post on here.

Cheers,
Dan.


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## larry Strong (21 Jun 2012)

Hello Dan  

Thank you so very much for that info 


Sincerely
Larry


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## larry Strong (21 Jun 2012)

When we're thermal imagers issues to the TOW's?


Thanks
Larry


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## Wolseleydog (24 Jun 2012)

If you haven't already, check out this link:
http://www.armouredacorn.com/Reference/CVM/Default.htm


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## larry Strong (24 Jun 2012)

Wolseleydog said:
			
		

> If you haven't already, check out this link:
> http://www.armouredacorn.com/Reference/CVM/Default.htm



Hello

Many thanks for that 

Sincerely
Larry


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## NavyShooter (24 Jun 2012)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure Sean Maloney talks about the introduction of TOW missiles in his book "War Without Battles". In fact, that book will be extremely useful for your project.
> 
> You should probably read "First Clash", too, which is a fictional account of the Canadian Brigade fighting WWIII, but I haven't read it so I can't recommend it. I only read "Team Yankee", which is a fictional account of a US Army M1 and M113 unit fighting in the 80's.



I have both these books on the bookshelf.  Team Yankee was Harold Coyle's kickstart novel I believe.

NS


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## The Anti-Royal (24 Jun 2012)

I served in 3 RCR Baden in the early 90s.  The cbt sp platoon callsigns were:

Mor Pl - FSCC 51, mor gps 52 and 53 (four tubes each)
Pnr Pl - not manned
Recce Pl - 69, 60, recce gps 61, 62 and 63 (four dets each)
Anti-Armour Pl - 79, 70, anti-armour gps 71, 72 and 73 (six dets each).

Anti-Armour was in TUA by 1989, IIRC.


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## larry Strong (24 Jun 2012)

Excellent, many thanks for that 

Sincerely
Larry


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## George Wallace (24 Jun 2012)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> When we're thermal imagers issues to the TOW's?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Larry



Did trials for SIMFIRE, TALISI, MILES, etc. around 1985 and they had a TOW 2 sight on trial, which I think had Thermal.  Memory may not be that accurate on that one though.  He was really hitting my Leo and I was saying "Damn!" a lot.


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## larry Strong (25 Jun 2012)

Much appreciated George, thank you.


later
Larry


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