# Tomahawk Talk



## darmil (13 Nov 2006)

> dropped him with one stroke from his tomahawk




Nice!!..it would be good for CQB.


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## Pearson (13 Nov 2006)

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> and dropped him with one stroke from his tomahawk.



Paracowboy on loan?


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## Kirkhill (13 Nov 2006)

If you are going to carry the weight of a tomahawk around why not carry something like these instead?

Left hand side of the first image is the classic Bowie knife/cutlass. Bowie's first knife was actually a broken sword that was resharpened/
Centre image is the Naval Cutlass 
The third image is the Sword Bayonet from the Baker Rifle.

Essentially all three are the same weapon. Shorter and handier than a sword.  Enough heft to suck up momentum from another weapon.  A protected hilt that also helps to improve the grip and act as a set of knuckle dusters. And finally in addition to the edge of the tomahawk, which looks really flashy when Mel Gibson is whinging them around his head, it has a point.

And as any swordsman will tell you "Point beats the Edge".   With the edge you have to wind up to generate a blow worth delivering leaving yourself exposed.  With the point you just stand there and flick the point to the undefended area while the target runs on to your weapon.

In addition, with all these short rifles you lot are carrying, sticking a nice big blade on the end of will make you look proper fearsome instead of like a bunch of plumbers looking for a sink to fix  >


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## paracowboy (13 Nov 2006)

Frankie said:
			
		

> Paracowboy on loan?


how'd you know about my tomahawk? Seriously?





			
				Kirkhill said:
			
		

> If you are going to carry the weight of a tomahawk around why not carry something like these instead?


because a knife is just a knife, and the chances of needing one that large is...minimal.

But a tomahawk is both an axe and a hammer in one. I have also used mine as a pry bar (not recommended, but it worked), a screwdriver, and the CP's Emergency Destruction Kit (only used once. Long story.)

I don't carry my tomahawk as a weapon. That is it's secondary duty. Or even tertiary. I'd rather pull a pistol. I carry it because the machetes we use are shyte, and break too easily. They don't have the mass to chop effectively. Whereas my tomahawk will take down a tree. I also carry it because you never have a hammer when you need one, and I grew tired of smashing my fingers with a rock. It's come in very handy on several exercises, and in theatre.

No, I don't throw it. Yes, I can hit things with it if I do throw it. I don't throw it because then I don't have it, and I've just armed the enemy should I miss. If I'm in such dire straits that I'm reduced to using an axe, I most definitely want to hang onto it, as it's my only weapon. But, as I said, it's a tool first, and a weapon only if everything that goes "bang!" has started going "click!" It mostly lives on my ruck, tucked in between the valise and the main bag.

I strongly recommend it. I use the Cold Steel Rifleman's Hawk, since it has the neat little hammer.


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## Kirkhill (14 Nov 2006)

Thanks for the clarification.


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## Synthos (14 Nov 2006)

Speaking of multi-function items... http://www.coldsteel.com/92sfs.html
Check out the video link ^_^


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## a_majoor (14 Nov 2006)

This tomahawk discussion reminds me of the debate about bayonets that erupted on the equipment forum. The point is well taken though, a handy multi-functional tool which is usable as a weapon when nothing else is left or suitable is a great idea. Although WW I soldiers often carried knuckle dusters or improvised maces and other medieval weapons, they were not multi functional, and would be dead weight for today's soldier 99% of the time. FWIW, soldiers in the "Great Wars" of the 20th century would resort to entrenching tools as improvised CQB weapons, so the tomahawk can be considered the updated version of this practice.


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## paracowboy (14 Nov 2006)

actually, now that I think about it: instead of troopie spending 50-odd bucks on a tomahawk, he can just stroll on down to Home Depot and get himself a drywall hammer. Same deal, really.


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## BernDawg (14 Nov 2006)

I have a Riggers axe and it works like a hotdamn on all kinds of stuff.  Mine is the wooden handle variety but there are all steel ones too if that floats your boat.


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## darmil (14 Nov 2006)

I think I'm going to grab one for my ruck. The more I think of the uses I'd use it for the more I want one.From pounding in tent spikes to lean-to making.Even have it with me when I go hunting.


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## 1feral1 (14 Nov 2006)

Tomahawks? Not in our system since the J's of SVN, and that war ended in the early 70's for Australia. I suppose they have their purpose even in todays system.

I have a Camillus M3 fighting knife for QCB, but I pulled it off my kit. Infact, within a the second day after arriving here in Shitland. Its in my kitbag now. It just got in the way, along with my ECBA, and all the crap that hangs off it it! In a LAV, there is just no room, period! For a duty blade, I have on my old CF shoulder holster, a Gerber Combat-Folder. Nice knife, and suits me as a duty knife, no worries.

If they are that close (the enemy), especially in my like of work, your rooted! Besides, thats what the 40mm wombat gun with HEDP, and the 76mm HE and WP Smk MBGLS are for. Plenty of .50,  5.56mm and 7.62mm SAA to go around, and we never travel alone.

Cheers,

Wes


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## boondocksaint (14 Nov 2006)

SFC W carried a Tomahawk generally to be used as a multi-purpose tool. This is an paragraph taken from his slide show he gave us in work up training. 

KNIVES: A GOOD SWISS ARMY KNIFE OR A MULTITOOL IS REALLY ALL YOU NEED, FOR MOST TASKS. THE ARMY WILL GIVE YOU A BAYONET/MRE OPENER. IF YOU BUY A FIXED BLADED KNIFE KEEP THE BLADE LENGTH AT 8IN OR LESS OR IT MIGHT BE CONFISCATED UPON RETURN. (CUSTOMS OFFICERS ARE P#*&^!) THE TRIED AND TRUE K-BAR IS YOUR BEST BET; IT’S INEXPENSIVE AND DURABLE. GET SOMETHING WITH A TANTO STYLE BLADE AS THEYARE THE MOST DURABLE, EASIER TO SHARPEN AND WILL GO THRU ALMOST ANYTHING. GENERAL JACKSON’S HAS ABOUT THE BEST SELECTION IN TOWN OR GO TO KNIFEOUTLET.COM. ALSO AS WE ARE GOING TO BE DOING QUITE A BIT OF MOUT, I’D SUGGEST YOU INVEST IN A…TOMAHAWK, IT CUTS CHOPS PRIES AND IN A PINCH DIGS TOO. PLUS IT’S PREFECT FOR GOIN MEL GIBSON ON THAT A$$.


BDS; I just changed your colour as it was almost impossible to read, I had to use Para's quote box below.


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## paracowboy (14 Nov 2006)

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> SFC W carried a Tomahawk generally to be used as a multi-purpose tool. This is an paragraph taken from his slide show he gave us in work up training.
> 
> KNIVES: A GOOD SWISS ARMY KNIFE OR A MULTITOOL IS REALLY ALL YOU NEED, FOR MOST TASKS. THE ARMY WILL GIVE YOU A BAYONET/MRE OPENER. IF YOU BUY A FIXED BLADED KNIFE KEEP THE BLADE LENGTH AT 8IN OR LESS OR IT MIGHT BE CONFISCATED UPON RETURN. (CUSTOMS OFFICERS ARE P#*&^!) THE TRIED AND TRUE K-BAR IS YOUR BEST BET; IT’S INEXPENSIVE AND DURABLE. GET SOMETHING WITH A TANTO STYLE BLADE AS THEYARE THE MOST DURABLE, EASIER TO SHARPEN AND WILL GO THRU ALMOST ANYTHING. GENERAL JACKSON’S HAS ABOUT THE BEST SELECTION IN TOWN OR GO TO KNIFEOUTLET.COM. ALSO AS WE ARE GOING TO BE DOING QUITE A BIT OF MOUT, I’D SUGGEST YOU INVEST IN A…TOMAHAWK, IT CUTS CHOPS PRIES AND IN A PINCH DIGS TOO. PLUS IT’S PREFECT FOR GOIN MEL GIBSON ON THAT A$$.


man makes sense. 
As an aside, since the docs don't let me play in the weeds anymore, can anyone enlighten me as tot he new bayonet? It seems fairly well thought-out, but I'd like some first-hand experience. It has most of the features I'd choose in a fixed-blade (although, that big ol' loop keeps making me stick my thumb in it during certain knife-drills  :. I'm gonna break my dang thumb someday.)

I used to carry my Cold Steel Master hunter, but if the new bayonet serves the purpose, I'll stop. No need for two fixed-blades, AND a pocket-knife, AND a multi-tool.


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## Haggis (14 Nov 2006)

BDS:  That blue font is absolutely brutal on us old folks!

I carry a K-BAR and/or a early 80's version Bundeswehr fighting knife.  Both are tough as nails, hold an edge well and can be used as a hammer/prybar.  Seriously, I'd never considered a tomahawk.



			
				paracowboy said:
			
		

> actually, now that I think about it: instead of troopie spending 50-odd bucks on a tomahawk, he can just stroll on down to Home Depot and get himself a drywall hammer. Same deal, really.



A new multi-tool for the PRT??  Drywall goes up... Taliban goes down.....


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## boondocksaint (14 Nov 2006)

Sorry about the blue folks, it was pretty bad. The new bayonet is fine, stood up well to pretty heavy abuse. Though I must admit mine stayed in the LAV alot of times, ounces make pounds, and I was humping alot of weight already. 

The tomahawk as an augmentation to section level kit would be ok. Like the machete idea.


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## GAP (14 Nov 2006)

boondocksaint said:
			
		

> Sorry about the blue folks, it was pretty bad. The new bayonet is fine, stood up well to pretty heavy abuse. Though I must admit mine stayed in the LAV alot of times, ounces make pounds, and I was humping alot of weight already.
> 
> The tomahawk as an augmentation to section level kit would be ok. Like the machete idea.



The tomahawk gives an almost equal cutting power as the machete, but in addition it gives so much more.


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## cplcaldwell (14 Nov 2006)

The comments about a tomahawk being a tool _not a weapon_ and being a useful thing at a section level as opposed to pers kit are well taken. 

So here's one.... this 'thing' may not be the most gucci piece of kit but I have one and I use it a lot at home and can tell you it's also useful for many things whilst wearing green (ammo boxes anyone?)... cheap and ugly and useful

Follow the link  Box Tool at Lee Valley


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## NL_engineer (15 Nov 2006)

I use one all the time when I go camping civy side, never thought of taking one on ex.  Thinking back I could have used it a fair bit on the last ex I was on.


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## Garett (15 Nov 2006)

I want one for Christmas!!!!
http://www.americantomahawk.com/products/comanche.htm


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## paracowboy (15 Nov 2006)

Garett said:
			
		

> I want one for Christmas!


I'm pretty sure you're funnin', but that's exactly the sort of thing you don't need. It's just an axe, and a fairly impractical one. Too many sharpy/pointy parts to it. It'd tear your kit apart without a specialty scabbard, and you can't use it as handily as a regular 'hawk or hatchet. No hammer. Handle's too short. Blade's not long enough. Or thick enough.


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## Journeyman (15 Nov 2006)

cplcaldwell said:
			
		

> *cheap and ugly and useful *


Sorry for the hijack....I just had a Sassy's moment.  ;D


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## darmil (16 Nov 2006)

That axe is too much.I like the tomahawk (plain) ...not all ninja'd up like the above axe... cause of the cutting edge and the blunt end.One that is sharp all around is useless in a riflemans kit.Machete out tomahawk in.I was looking to get a small axe anyway so it makes sense.As for carrying a knife on my belt, I use a marine corp fighting knife it's really just a black K Bar.At times it's too much but other times it has been handy.


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## Mike Baker (16 Nov 2006)

I want one!


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## paracowboy (16 Nov 2006)

Michael Baker said:
			
		

> I want one!


why?


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## a_majoor (16 Nov 2006)

Garett said:
			
		

> I want one for Christmas!!!!
> http://www.americantomahawk.com/products/comanche.htm



If you want to get medieval on someones a**, then I suggest you go to a museum and examine the real thing(s). Generally edged weapons were mounted on 3 to 6' long poles so you could reach out and touch someone, as well as getting a useful amount of leverage to pull an enemy down, or generate enough power to deliver a killing blow. Today a bayonet fixed on the end of a rifle signals intent and is a fearsome psychological weapon, but I think the vast majority of people will either use the rifle as a club, or reach for a secondary firearm when the bad guys get too close.

Since we have so many better ways to deliver mayhem to the enemy today, lets keep ideas like knives, hatchets, tomahawks etc. to the realm of "I want a practical multi purpose tool to let me do x, y and z. Being able to bash someone if they get too close would also be handy"


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## Mike Baker (16 Nov 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> why?


Why not?   It looks good for splitting wood to me.


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## Pearson (16 Nov 2006)

When I saw the thread, I though Para had a new talk show, but I guess not.


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## a_majoor (16 Nov 2006)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28762/post-194219.html#msg194219

Some closing thoughts:

If we are really discussing the utillity of "getting it on" at hand to hand range, then the rest of our equipment has to change as well. Soldiers need to wear "shot gloves" with enough weight in them to break bones when striking an opponent. Elbow and knee pads should have raised metal bosses so when you knee or elbow an opponent, it will leave an impression. The mounting bracket on helmets for the night visiion equipment is also useful when head butting an opponent. Finally, instead of having a bayonet or fighting knife (which is of limited utility against an armoured opponent anyway), each soldier should have a small club or extendable baton (like the ASP) which he can use once the stock of the rifle has been broken over the enemy's head.

On the other hand, if we are talking about conditioning the soldier for the battle, and having a secondary weapon for CCO or prisoner control, then the bayonet is still the way to go


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## KevinB (16 Nov 2006)

Bayonet = Ass


 I like muzzle strikes -- for a non compliant yet you cant shoot them yet sort of tgt i treally get s the point across.
The Thawk has a use -- elsewhere here I pointed outa CAG E8 that uses one.

Close in the Helmet especially with the NVG mount (mine is bolted - unliek the standard CF system) can deal a nasty wound.
 - I have a fixed blade on my vest (s small skeletonized knife at 4" blade) -- and a Benchmade Auto in a pocket.
With 6 mags on my vest - 1 in the gun - 1 in a redi-mag and 3 pistol mags on my vest plus my pistol -- IF I have to resort to a knife or whatever things have gone south -- and I should have picked up a EN weapon from the people I expended my ammo on.


I dont carry a big "tank hunting knife" and for the reasons Para and others have pointed out -- the Thawk is carried for a tool primarily.


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## silentbutdeadly (16 Nov 2006)

i contacted Americantomahawk and they are going to get back to me with prices, so im me if your interested. Our CQ in Acoy used one in Aghanistan and swears by it, but its up to you.


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## Collapczar (9 Mar 2008)

1st to apologize 4 hitting up this old thread but I just got here.  I am a woodsman from MI but not in the service.  I found this blog looking at hammers and roofing hammers as I enjoy roofing.  I have at times carried a broken handled Gerber camp axe on roofs (good on tar).  It just so happens to be small enough to fit in my pouch.  It's really lite and i can use it to strike or be struck w/ my hammer.  It doesn't have a hammer head exactly but it will eventually.  There are some things I want to show.  PS If it is difficult to use quickly in CQC then it must be very versatile.  I have heard of men using Thawks on trunks of cars.  I have been swinging an ax 4 years and figure 1 blow to a door w/ a large estwing ax.  In a group... with backup i could be very dangerous.  It doesn't run out of ammo.      Please look at some of these tools/links

1) woodsman palhttp://www.knife-depot.com/knife-39674.html
3) gerber lite small camp axe http://www.knife-depot.com/knife-14376.html
2) schrade multibowie? http://www.knife-depot.com/knife-52468.html
also check thru axes + hatchets tab on L side

Lastly I carry almost daily a smaller Swiss pocket knife around house but the working knife I use is a Gerber w/ a blade change in a nylon pouch.  It has 3 blades a tanto w/ gut hook, a skinner w/ custom serrations in the middle of blade and a chinese style saw.  If a person was 2 happen to break a blade theu would have a backup


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## tomahawk6 (9 Mar 2008)

The official tomahawk of the 23d Infantry Regiment, the Tomahawks.


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