# First Clash/Counterstrike



## BruceinAlberta (24 Dec 2005)

As I travelled from Calgary to Ottawa and then back this week I read First Strike (This forum helped me remember the title of the book and I found it on Amazon)  I finished it on the plane.  The follow up book, Counterstrike, is not available on Amazon.  What happens in Counterstrike?  Thanks and Merry Christmas


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## TCBF (24 Dec 2005)

I read 'First Strike' years ago in Germany.  In fact, an American officer was the first person to talk to me about it.  I think I acquired 'Counterstroke' at one point, or at least ran into it, because I remember the difference in location.  First Strike was in the Rhine vallye close to CFB Baden-Sollingen, and the second book was further east, in northern Bavaria, if I recall.

At the time, the Rhine valley struck me as a much more realistic location  , but it was probably chosen for it's convenience to Baden and Lahr for 4CMBG 'Staff Rides' and the like.  Or, perhaps we were loathe to stage a book in our actual deployment areas, for obvious reasons.

I will look around for it.

Tom


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## BruceinAlberta (24 Dec 2005)

I'm that retired US officer.  I found the book because of this forum but could not find the sequel.  Just curious how the war ends


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## missing1 (24 Dec 2005)

> First Strike was in the Rhine vallye close to CFB Baden-Sollingen, and the second book was further west, in northern Bavaria, if I recall.



If it'll help, the start of the battle for Counter Stroke had the Cdns about 25 K NE of Schwandorf and the red force just North and East of same and advancing down SE of Neunburg To a line from Stamsried south to Strahfeld both of which are about 8 to 10 K south of Rotz.


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## TCBF (25 Dec 2005)

Yeaaaahhhh....  try feeding THAT into a search engine.

 ;D

So, fold the map back in, flip the book over, and give us the darn ISBN number, whydontcha?

Thanks.

Tom


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## a_majoor (25 Dec 2005)

The only edition of "Counterstroke" I ever saw or read was an internal publication, no ISBN or anything else. I don't think it was ever published in the outside world, but if it was it would be filed under "Science Fiction" now, since the Canadians were fighting with a "Corps 86" TO&E. Mind you, the 120mm "Jagdleopards" (or whatever they were called) were pretty cool, and I would take one of those over an MGS any day.


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## missing1 (25 Dec 2005)

> So, fold the map back in, flip the book over, and give us the darn ISBN number, whydontcha


Go back to the start of this conversation and you will find I gave the CF library Number as there wasn't an ISBN
Don't be so flippant,if you didn't want the map area don't read it, therefore no reason to comment on it. The info was submitted for those who know the area.


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## Gunner (25 Dec 2005)

> Mind you, the 120mm "Jagdleopards" (or whatever they were called) were pretty cool, and I would take one of those over an MGS any day.



Chimera's.  

Remember that Corps 86 was nothing more than a CLFCSC document and was not a blueprint to a revised and upgraded army.


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## Old Sweat (25 Dec 2005)

Gunner,

You are correct regardng Corps 86, but perhaps for not the reasons you may believe. In the period 1977-1980 the army attempted to resurrect the combat development process which was one of the first casualties of the integration process put in place by Hellyer in 1964. A number of branch studies were conducted, unfortunately without any guidance or limitations as to manpower and resources. These individual studies were then cobbled together into what became Corps 86. (I am over simplifying things here.) It was apparent from the gitgo that the chances of any of this being implemented were zero, however for what seemed like good reasons at the time, the organization was used for instructional purposes. It was a huge waste of time and resources that in my opinion could have been far better used in any number of ways.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Dec 2005)

From footnotes of part of "Crisis in Zefra"...

Kenneth J. Macksey. Counterstroke. (Ottawa: DND Publication B-GL-309-007/FT-001, 1989/90)

Hope this helps!


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## TCBF (25 Dec 2005)

"Go back to the start of this conversation and you will find I gave the CF library Number as there wasn't an ISBN
Don't be so flippant,if you didn't want the map area don't read it, therefore no reason to comment on it. The info was submitted for those who know the area."

- So, show me on this thread where you gave it? And, by the by, I Troop led Leopard tanks in that area.

Tom

Edit: No longer listed by title or NDID on the AEL.


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## missing1 (26 Dec 2005)

teufel said:
			
		

> I believe the books you are looking for are First Clash and Couterstroke.
> Both are Defence Manuals and are # as, First Clash B-GL-309-006/FT-001published in 1984 by CF Production center CFB Winipeg and Counterstroke G-GL-309-007/FT-001. Major (Ret) Kenneth Macksey  MC is the author. I understand another book was supposed to be published. If anyone has info on that I would like to hear about it.
> They were good reading,and still are
> Hope this helps you out.
> ...


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## TCBF (26 Dec 2005)

"Go back to the start of this conversation and you will find I gave the CF library Number as there wasn't an ISBN
Don't be so flippant,if you didn't want the map area don't read it, therefore no reason to comment on it. The info was submitted for those who know the area."

- So, show me on this thread where you gave it? And, by the by, I Troop led Leopard tanks in that area." - Tom

To which you replied: "I believe the books you are looking for are First Clash and Couterstroke.
Both are Defence Manuals and are # as, First Clash B-GL-309-006/FT-001published in 1984 by CF Production center CFB Winipeg and Counterstroke G-GL-309-007/FT-001. Major (Ret) Kenneth Macksey  MC is the author. I understand another book was supposed to be published. If anyone has info on that I would like to hear about it.
They were good reading,and still are
Hope this helps you out.

Dave'

I thank you for that, but I had only looked at and asked for THIS thread.  Your detailed and accurate reply was on 14 Dec, before this thread was started.  Hence, my confusion when you wrote 'Go back to the start of this conversation'.

Anyway, Merry Christmas.

So, what time is the NYD Levy at the Brockville Armoury WSM?

Tom


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## vonGarvin (14 Feb 2006)

Excellent books, I have them both.
Well, First Clash is excellent, Counterstroke is less than ideal.
The first one is based on what was really there.  I actually have it in paperback, ISBN and all that.  I don't have it in front of me, but I recall the back saying "Tom Clancy and others have told you the fiction of what WWIII would be like.  Now read the reality".  Sums it up, IMHO.  As for the location, I guess putting them on the Buehl plateau near Baden made sense for TEWTs, vice going trepsing across Bavaria.
Counterstroke: Bobcat recce vehicles, Lion Tanks, Chimera Tank Destroyers, etc.  Also, though the brigade is filled with 29 PPCLI (or whatever), it "claims" to be the same brigade (4 CMBG) from First Clash, instead of putting them forward as a different brigade group.  Personally, I think it would have been just as effective on its own, instead of talking of the value of the Chimera's used "to great value" on the Buehl Plateau.
My $0.02 worth, and remember, you get what you paid for ;-)


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## TangoTwoBravo (15 Feb 2006)

I believe that both books were conceived as teaching aids for junior officers.  I was told years ago that the intent of First Clash was to give junior officers a glimpse of "modern" combined arms combat to prepare them for ITC in Gagetown.  Since Lts may not have had much experience working with other arms the book would give a look at the combined arms piece at the combat team and battlegroup level.  The book would place all that dry pre-course study (FOE etc) into some context.  

In addition to being educational, First Clash was also entertaining  This was due in no small part to the author.  I'll confess that I joined the Armoured Corps partly due to reading that book several times (go B Sqn RCD!).  The ending lacked a feeling of closure, but I guess I can live with that.  Since it dealt with real units and the equipment on the ground the book was about as realistic as you can get when writing about a fictional event (WW III).

I did not enjoy Counter-stroke nearly as much.  We had several copies in my old unit's Pam Library.  There are river crossings and other events but the book just seemed dry.  Add to that the fanciful inclusion of Corpse 86 and the book lacks the authentic and realistic feel of First Clash.


p.s. I wonder about the wisdom of teaching officers how to use organizations and equipment that do not exist.  I can see some value in being prepared to employ new or planned concepts, but it seemed a little silly to force memorization of non-existant units.  It made some of our courses seem a little more like fantasy for senior officers than preparing junior officers (Capts) for their units.  We had at least one kitted out CMBG, so perhaps we could have focused Kingston on that structure and equipment?  Throw in some existing allied units (helicopters, higher arty assets, cav units), but focus on real world capabilities.

I took my staff training in the US and it was refreshing to learn about existing units/equipment.  At Brigade level it wasn't all that different than the Canadian army in terms of structure (a Canadian brigade group actually had more integral bits and pieces than a US counter-part).  At Div level the only added capabilities were the MLRS battery and the aviation brigade (with one battalion of AH64).  How hard would it have been for us to train on the CMBG as part of a US division?  At least we would have learned about the capabilities and organizations of our ally instead of the Kurskesque fantasy of a senior Canadian officer.

Rant off...


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## GunfighterSB (17 Mar 2006)

For those of you that are interested:

Www.steelbeasts.com is going to recreate First Clash using SteelBeasts Pro PE. Obviously with only an 8 Player limit, Various Teams for 1Gd's Tank Div and 4th CMBG are needed to play side by side. It is currently under development and testing, But we hope to recreate the "desperate" fight for the Bühl plateau. 

The approximate launched date is May 2006.


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## vonGarvin (17 Mar 2006)

For those of you grognards with "older" games (specifically, Steel Panthers, 2 I believe), there was a scenario based on the initial phase of the deliberate attack portrayed in the book, "somewhere" on the web.  I took it, edited it to circa 1999 and had LAV IIIs and Leo C2s up against BMP2s and T80s (vice M113 and Leo C1 vs BMP1 and T72 as was found in the book)
If I find the link, I'll post it.

Cheers

Hauptmann


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## Cdriskell (1 Feb 2007)

Hello Everyone:

I'm a former US Army soldier, once stationed in Germany (late 80's thru early 90's).  While there I read a book about a WWIII armor battle and after a lot of research, I'm beginning to wonder if it was either First Clash or Counterstroke.  I've read Red Storm Rising and Team Yankee, and while entertaining, neither of them is the one I am looking for.

I do remember that the commanding officer dies in the end of the book I'm looking for and it seems that an enlisted tank comander is a central character in the novel.  Seems like I remember the Abrams being the tank of choice, and I also remember some activity next to other NATO tanks.

Sorry to pollute your board with my quest, but there's nothing worse than trying to find something you cannot remember the name of- it's maddening.  Any help anyone can give would be most appreciated.


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## AmmoTech90 (1 Feb 2007)

Hi Cdriskell,

It is not likely First Clash as the Leopard C1 is the main tank mentioned in that book.  I haven't read Counterstrike so I cant comment on that.  There were two other books about WWIII that came out around the same time as Red Storm Rising and Team Yankee that were both better in my opinion.  Unfortunately I cannot remember their titiles.  One was written from a Soviet point of view that was interesting.


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## George Wallace (1 Feb 2007)

Another was called "Chieftan" and started Chapter 1 with the boys coming home from the Gasthaus across the street from Canada Gate at Hohne.  It was about a Chieftan crew, but also had lots on the whole Corps and SOF with "Backpack Nukes" towards the end.


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## vonGarvin (1 Feb 2007)

"First Clash" is solely about Canadians vs Soviets in the old West Germany.  It covers the deployment of the Brigade to a defensive area, the conduct of the main defensive battle and counter moves, and then covers the brigade's withdrawal.  Counterstroke (not counterstrike) is set in the same war, but has gone totally "fictional", in that the recce vehicles are now "Bobcats", the tanks are "Lions" and there are 120 mm mortars in the battalions (5 PPCLI I think?) and 120 mm "Chimera" Tank Destroyers in the AT battalions.  Not as good a read as First Clash, but entertaining nonetheless.


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## 3rd Herd (3 Feb 2007)

From the Soviet perspective is Red thrust: Attack on the central front, Soviet tactics and capabilities in the 1990s by Steve Zaloga. A disciple of David Glantz, Zaloga describes the Soviet battle tactics using fictional scenarios. These begin with the rise of nationalistic ambitions of Warsaw pact countires specifically Germany and end with all out war with NATO. Each scenario depicts a certain aspect of the Soviet military. At the conclusion of said scenarios a analysis of the actual abilities is given. It is always interesting to see the other sides point of view. As George mentioned earlier Chieftan was an interesting read in giving the British perspective of a possible NATO/Warsaw Pack conflict. It was interesting to note in Chieftan the views of the regulars of the British professionals towards the other members of NATO as the book opens with a fight between the British "hero's" and the Dutch conscripts. It was also interesting to see the coverage nuclear weapons received from 'backpack/suitcase' nuclear weapons on the Soviet side to the proposed use of nuclear mines on the German side to destroy Soviet advances.

Edit:
Chieftan was written by Bob Forrest- Webb


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## a_majoor (3 Feb 2007)

Another view from the Soviet side was "*Red Army*", by Ralph Peters. While the CF isn't mentioned in there, we do see the Soviets, some Warsaw pact forces, West Germans, Dutch and, towards the end, US V Corps.

Peters also takes the story from the individual rifleman to an Soviet Army level commander, with sub plots involving all arms and services, so we see the battle unfold from many different levels. Well worth the read.


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## vonGarvin (3 Feb 2007)

I've read both of those (Red Thrust and Red Army).  Both are well worth the read.


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## 3rd Herd (4 Feb 2007)

Hi Cdriskell,
could you perhaps be thinking about Ian Slater's series WW III. Some of his first books where pretty good but then as with several other writers I think in his case it became more of quantity than quality. Also Larry Bond's earlier works could be in this area but again his latter books seem to have digressed into more fiction then fact. Interestingly enough I came across a reference in Terry Copp's Fields of Fire: The Canadians In Normandy in which a "classified study dating from the 1950's, British operational researchers studied the consequences of using tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefields of 1944. They concluded that the use of weapons in the one kiloton range would have changed everything to such a degree that the historical events were of little interest. If you nuke Verrieres Ridge, your problem then becomes how to avoid it, not capture it."(pg. 7) All this in part of the military's reexamination of Second War battles in order to come up with ways of defeating a major Soviet Attack.


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## Cdriskell (16 Feb 2007)

Thanks to everyone who posted.  I finally found the book: it's titled The Ten Thousand, by Harold Coyle.  As usual, I had some facts mixed up.  It's a yarn about the US and USSR going against the Germans in a WWIII type scenario.  Thanks again: great board you have here!


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