# 22 March 2017:  Attack In London



## Halifax Tar (22 Mar 2017)

U.K. police shoot assailant after gunfire heard near Parliament

House of Commons suspended and locked down, least 4 people lying on ground, some bleeding heavily

A man has been shot by London police after loud bangs similar to gunfire were heard outside Britain's Parliament on Wednesday.

At least four people were lying on the ground, some bleeding heavily and apparently unconscious, on Westminster Bridge near Parliament.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/london-shooting-1.4035964

_- mod edit to add date, remove question mark -_


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## dimsum (22 Mar 2017)

Update:  4 dead, 20 injured.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/world/several-injured-outside-british-parliament-house-on-lockdown-amid-reports-of-several-injuries-outside


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## The Bread Guy (22 Mar 2017)

Condolences to those affected by those killed, speedy recovery to those wounded and well done to those stopping the attack ...

Some quick headlines from Google News here ...

_*"4 dead in vehicle, knife attack at British Parliament"*_
*"Four dead, at least 20 injured in parliament 'terrorist' attack"*
_*"No change in Canada's threat level after assumed terror attack in London"*_


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## jollyjacktar (22 Mar 2017)

Deepest condolences to the family and friends of the fallen and a speedy, full recovery to the injured.  Glad the terrorist didn't make it.


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## alpine87 (22 Mar 2017)

I hope all those wounded recover quickly. Very sad event and condolences to the families of those killed.


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## mariomike (22 Mar 2017)

Don Jnr. Tweets,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=trump+london+mayor&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A3%2F22%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A&tbm=#spf=1

In the middle of the London terror attacks?
Ambulances in the background?
People injured & killed?
Time for a selfie.
http://nypost.com/2017/03/22/this-jerk-whipped-out-his-selfie-stick-at-london-attack-scene/


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## Jarnhamar (23 Mar 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Don Jnr. Tweets,
> https://www.google.ca/search?q=trump+london+mayor&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A3%2F22%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A&tbm=#spf=1



Trump Jr sounds like a real doorknob with that tweet.  Obviously not what the mayor said. 

I wonder though if the mayor will blame this attack on Trump. 







[although in fairness the identity of the attacker hasn't been confirmed]


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## The Bread Guy (23 Mar 2017)

Just a reminder ...


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## Lightguns (23 Mar 2017)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Trump Jr sounds like a real doorknob with that tweet.  Obviously not what the mayor said.
> 
> I wonder though if the mayor will blame this attack on Trump.
> 
> ...



Yup, he got it right, saying bad things about a religion makes bad things happen by the adherents of the religion.  Look at the continually roasted Jehovah Witnesses, the mayhem they create in the streets..........  Don't forget Mormons and their drive to turn the world into Utah.


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## Humphrey Bogart (23 Mar 2017)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Yup, he got it right, saying bad things about a religion makes bad things happen by the adherents of the religion.  Look at the continually roasted Jehovah Witnesses, the mayhem they create in the streets..........  Don't forget Mormons and their drive to turn the world into Utah.



... "If I get one more person turning me and my free bibles away at their door, I'm going to flip!"


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## jollyjacktar (23 Mar 2017)

As soon as they said, very early today, that the rented vehicle the terrorist used was from Birmingham and arrests had been made there, the identity of this POS comes as no surprise.



> Updated
> U.K. attacker ID'd as Khalid Masood, British-born man once investigated for 'violent extremism'
> Attacker had not been convicted of terrorism-related offences
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/britain-westminster-attack-investigation-thurs-1.4037373


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## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2017)

A man stops at the scene to take a selfie while a french arab website celebrates.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3154289/outrage-as-insensitive-man-is-caught-on-camera-taking-pics-on-a-selfie-stick-in-front-of-parliament-terror-attack-scene/


> THIS man sparked fury on Twitter when he was seen using a ‘selfie stick’ near victims of the Westminster terror attack.



https://www.infowars.com/proof-muslims-celebrated-terror-attack-in-london/


> A screenshot from France 24 Arabic’s live video feed shows Muslim viewers reacting to the rampage with smiley faces and thumbs up.


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## jollyjacktar (25 Mar 2017)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Paramedics who tried to save the London terrorist criticized by some members of the public for helping him.
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/leave-him-youre-no-better-10083751



As far as I'm concerned, the only pressure point I would want to apply on that POS laying on the ground would at throat level.  Fuck. Him.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Mar 2017)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> https://www.infowars.com/proof-muslims-celebrated-terror-attack-in-london/


Ah, the "judge the whole group by the actions of a few f***ckers" paradigm -- well done, InfoWars***!  I guess Alex was too busy to pick up on what some other Muslims have been up to ...

_*"UK Muslim leaders condemn 'cowardly' London attack"*_
_*"London attack: British Muslim council condemns 'cowardly and depraved' Westminster terror incident"*_
_*"British Muslims condemn London attack"*_
_*"#Notinmyname: Hundreds of Muslims condemn terror attack"*_
_*"London attack: Muslim raises over $30,000 for victims"*_
Remember, when you judge one group by the worst examples, you better be prepared for _*other*_ groups to be judged by the worst examples - and not complain saying, _"hey, it's just a few bad apples - you can't paint with a broad brush."_

*** -- The same folks who brought you this:  _"9/11: CIA Likely Built Remote-Controlled Commercial Jets in Aircraft Boneyard -- This would explain how 9/11 hijackers were able to "fly" commercial jets with little experience"_


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## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2017)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Ah, the "judge the whole group by the actions of a few f***ckers" paradigm -- well done, InfoWars***!  I guess Alex was too busy to pick up on what some other Muslims have been up to ...
> 
> _*"UK Muslim leaders condemn 'cowardly' London attack"*_
> _*"London attack: British Muslim council condemns 'cowardly and depraved' Westminster terror incident"*_
> ...



There were a half dozen or more other websites with the same story, I just grabbed the  first one. 

Just more examples of humans being dicks.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Mar 2017)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> There were a half dozen or more other websites with the same story, I just grabbed the  first one.
> 
> Just more examples of humans being dicks.


Have to agree ...


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Mar 2017)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Ah, the "judge the whole group by the actions of a few f***ckers" paradigm -- well done, InfoWars***!  I guess Alex was too busy to pick up on what some other Muslims have been up to ...
> 
> _*"UK Muslim leaders condemn 'cowardly' London attack"*_
> _*"London attack: British Muslim council condemns 'cowardly and depraved' Westminster terror incident"*_
> ...



Words and websites. It's easy to condemn them to the press. Words.  It's easy to condemn them to the media. Words, mostly anonymous. 

I want to know how many of these bad guys they've dropped a dime on. I want to see them front and centre, megaphone in hand, with their local imams, rallying against their gone astray brethern when they decide to riot, have a pray in on Main St, or create no go ghettos. I want to see them stand up in parliament, and tell Trudeau he's wrong. I want them to yell at the left, there is no such a thing as islamaphobia. 

When I see someone prominent with muslims, the House of Saud, Iran's Ayatolla someone like that condemn the terrorists, and turn their armies loose to kill them, then, I might start to believe it.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Mar 2017)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Words and websites. It's easy to condemn them to the press. *Words*.  It's easy to condemn them to the media. Words, mostly anonymous.


Apart from the fundraising, right?

So you mean the social media posts that Jarhamar shared (words & emojis, mostly anonymous) should just be overlooked too, then?  

Meanwhile, some of the latest ...

_*"Police Stumped As All But One Suspect Freed After London Attack"*_
_*"London attack: One still held in police custody"*_
_*"London terror attack was predicted six weeks ago by government-backed report"*_
_*"London attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, say police"*_
And, from the usual suspects @ globalresearch.ca ...
*"London Attack: Terrorism, Other Type Street Violence or False Flag?"*


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## Journeyman (26 Mar 2017)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And, from the usual suspects @ globalresearch.ca ...


   



> A virtual state of emergency exists in central London, plans to extend it city-wide, perhaps to be followed in other European cities beyond repressive measures already in place.


My step-son was in London during the attack, and just got home last night.  He called BS (in quite graphic terms) about that whole sentence.



> Her [PM May] hyperbole sounded pre-scripted.


Wow. A national leader knowing what s(he)'s going to say before speaking?  For some, apparently, _inconceivable_ !   :stars:



> Unknown so far is whether Wednesday’s incident was terrorism as claimed, street violence unrelated to terrorism, or a state-sponsored false flag.


Sorry, words fail me.   :brickwall:


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## Jarnhamar (26 Mar 2017)

[quote author=Journeyman]  _inconceivable_ !   :stars:

[/quote]

*Sicilian accent *


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## The Bread Guy (26 Mar 2017)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Sorry, words fail me.   :brickwall:


_AND_ it was posted pretty soon after the attacks ...






			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> *Sicilian accent *


 :rofl:


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## Jarnhamar (26 Mar 2017)

Caught this story about the attacker. 
Apparently he spent some time in jail and came out obsessed with Islam. 

They say he wasn't too impressed  his 18 year old daughter or his wife wouldn't to convert to Islam. 


https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2017/03/london-terrorist-daughter/


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## jmt18325 (26 Mar 2017)

Given this guys birth name, I tend to lean towards the idea that he was a nut that was taken in by radical Islamic extremists.  I'm not really sure what can be done to stop this kind of thing.


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## George Wallace (27 Mar 2017)

jmt18325 said:
			
		

> Given this guys birth name, I tend to lean towards the idea that he was a nut that was taken in by radical Islamic extremists.  I'm not really sure what can be done to stop this kind of thing.



What I read, was that he was converted while in prison.  A fact often reported in American press reflecting on the numbers of converts being found in American prisons as well.  This would indicate that many prison systems around the world are the breeding grounds for the recruiting of converts to Islam.


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## jmt18325 (27 Mar 2017)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What I read, was that he was converted while in prison.  A fact often reported in American press reflecting on the numbers of converts being found in American prisons as well.  This would indicate that many prison systems around the world are the breeding grounds for the recruiting of converts to Islam.



Yeah I think I saw that now that you mention it.  That said, there's no problem with converting to Islam per say.  It's obvious (to me, anyway) that this convert (and too many others) have some combination of mental illness combined with a very bad influence before/during/arter the conversion.


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## Journeyman (27 Mar 2017)

jmt18325 said:
			
		

> It's obvious ...mental illness....


The World Health Organization claims that "27 percent of the adult population had experienced at least one of a series of mental disorders in the past year...  35 percent of lone-actor terrorists demonstrated a potential mental-health disorder."1 That isn't a substantial deviation from the broader population.  Beyond potential 'disorders' and into full-blown 'psychoses,' in a sample of 500 terrorists, only four had "hints that they experienced beliefs that were not based in reality."2 


Dismissing terrorists as crazy is both too easy, and not supported by those preferring informed opinion.


1.  Jeanine de Roy van Zuijdewijn and Edwin Bakker, “Analysing Personal Characteristics of Lone-Actor Terrorists: Research Findings and Recommendations,” _Perspectives on Terrorism_, Volume 10, Issue 2, April 2016, 44.

2.  Marc Sageman, _Leaderless Jihad: Terror Networks in the Twenty-First Century_. (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 2008), 84.


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## Flavus101 (27 Mar 2017)

jmt18325 said:
			
		

> Yeah I think I saw that now that you mention it.  That said, there's no problem with converting to Islam per say.  It's obvious (to me, anyway) that this convert (and too many others) have some combination of mental illness combined with a very bad influence before/during/arter the conversion.



While we may use the term "mental illness" at times to justify why a person committed an act that the vast majority of people would never dream of committing, I do not believe that we are doing ourselves any favours.

I think that we have used "mental illness" way too broadly over the past few years to explain away the motive of why a bad person committed an action. I think we need to just accept that there are bad people in the world who function perfectly fine mentally (personally I think they are often much more intelligent than your average person, or at least more cunning) however their morality has strayed away from normal society and they view horrendous crimes as a legitimate method of enacting change.

When we just chalk things up to "mental illness" we are doing a disservice to the victims and to those who actually suffer from a mental illness. Often I want to just label those grown men who fantasize over My Little Pony as mentally ill. In reality they are just lost souls who are looking for some companionship and when the next "cool thing" comes around they will immerse themselves in that.


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## jmt18325 (27 Mar 2017)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The World Health Organization claims that "27 percent of the adult population had experienced at least one of a series of mental disorders in the past year...  35 percent of lone-actor terrorists demonstrated a potential mental-health disorder."1 That isn't a substantial deviation from the broader population.  Beyond potential 'disorders' and into full-blown 'psychoses,' in a sample of 500 terrorists, only four had "hints that they experienced beliefs that were not based in reality."2
> 
> 
> Dismissing terrorists as crazy is both too easy, and not supported by those preferring informed opinion.
> ...



I think I'm using the term a little too broadly, and I apologize.  It's not a mental illness per the definition, as much as it is a predisposition towards something.  I shouldn't have used the words mental illness. In other words, I feel that someone like this has somewhat of a predisposition towards doing something like this.  For too many people like this, Islam seems to have what they're looking for.


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## brihard (27 Mar 2017)

Mental illness does not mean someone is not responsible for something. You can be nuttier than squirrel crap, but still understand the nature and quality of your actions - that you ARE hurting people and that society DOES consider it wrong.

Part of the issue with us flippantly dismissing these lone wolves as inevitably mentally ill is that some of our conceptions around mental illness necessarily rest on assumed norms. We assume it normal that a person has a desire to survive, and that if they desire to die, or don't care that they do, then they MUST be mentally ill. This is not necessarily the case though. It is possible for a belief system to shift a person's baseline rationality and invalidate these assumptions. If a person genuinely believes - and not in a delusional, psychotic way, but through firm ideological or religious adherence - that their individual life is subordinate to something bigger, then that can change some major underlying behavioural norms such that our assumptions don't work anymore.

Among all these 'lone wolf' attackers we'll see a few different kinds. There will be the 'radicalized losers', the generally younger ones who have been socioeconomic failures. A few years back they would have donned a trench coat and shot up a college, but still would not have found meaning to their lives or deaths. Now they can add that 'meaning' component through online self-radicalization.

Another kind are those who are already living criminal/deviant lifestyles and, similar to the 'meaning' absent the radicalized losers, they get drawn into an identity, often in the incarceral setting. This dude may have been one of thsoe.

Common factor in both of these is that they are likely recent converts, likely have a shallow if any grasp of the religion/ideology, and likely have minimal external direction. YouTube or their cell mates lead them to radicalization, but they still direct their own actions.

More rarely we have those who are externally directed- those who seek a two way interaction and who get latched onto by someone who recognizes a potential smart bomb and wants to direct them. They may have grown up in the belief system but radicalize later after an ideological shift. Rarely they may be those who have been sent to infiltrate a society from abroad and then to attack.

Mental illness may be a vulnerability factor in any or all of these, but does not suffice to explain them. Mental illness will rarely cause someone to kill, and where it does there is usually a disorganized psychosis in play.


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## jmt18325 (27 Mar 2017)

Brilliant post.


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## Journeyman (27 Mar 2017)

jmt18325 said:
			
		

> I feel that someone like this has somewhat of a predisposition towards doing something like this.


There's very, very little evidence of any sort of a 'terrorist personality.' Radicalization is a process, not an end-state, which usually includes Group- and Individual-motivation.  

Two recurring factors _seem_  to be a frustration/grievance and a charismatic personality to guide the way. The grievance can meld something like "'Crusaders' oppressing the Muslim homeland" (Group) with being bullied at school (Indiv), where they are felt as part and parcel of the same problem. There is no shortage of frustrations -- nationalism, egalitarianism, anarchy, abortion; it's not _just_  Islamist extremism....

Add a charismatic person (Imam, online propagandist, role models, etc), who gives explanations for the disappointing world and suggested outlets for their previous helplessness. A new-found sense of purpose enhances a positive self-image, perhaps for the first time. They increasingly withdraw into a small group of like-minded people (this site is not immune to echo-chambers of ideological reinforcement), where more intense indoctrination occurs, and....._ta da_.... kids blow up so young these days. 


Turning to Brihard... I hate the term "Lone Wolf";  most are "stray mutts" (as you know).  Lone Wolf gives it a glamour that may appeal to "copy cat" others, and in the bigger picture, only rare cases like Ted Kaczynski qualify for the term.  Two weeks before Zehaf-Bibeau got himself 'martyred' 36 times on Parliament hill, he was a drug-addled loser with a string of failed personal and financial dealings;  suddenly.....he's a LONE WOLF TERRORIST!!!  Ooohhhhh.

But even lone actors are seldom "alone."  While being physically loners in plotting or conducting attacks, the Internet makes for their imagined community. Here, they may interact with a larger extremist community, which provides affirmation and encouragement. This reinforces their radicalization trajectory until they cross that “violence threshold” where they see themselves as combatants defending their communities (at home or abroad) in accordance with their recently-articulated grievances.

I know, tl;dr  


Edit: grammar.   :'(


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## The Bread Guy (27 Mar 2017)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ... I know, tl;dr


Hard to get those nuanced shades of grey in there via Twitter-length philosophical pronouncements, though  ;D


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## brihard (27 Mar 2017)

From a security standpoint, these vehicle attacks are a bit of a game changer. They are not something we are going to be able to consistently, adequately defend against. We have a limited capacity to 'target harden' major events and the most high profile symbolic targets, but that's about it. As a front line professional in this field, in a city where this is a real concern, this is an attack pattern that I worry about.

These attacks seem to cease in one of a few ways:
- The attacker voluntarily ceases the attack to attempt to evade capture or death; e.g. Belgium a short time ago, or Berlin around Christmas.
- The driver is incapacitated with lethal force, e.g., Nice, Jerusalem IDF attack.
- The driver voluntarily exits to continue the attack by other means like knives or guns, e.g., the Lee Rigby murder.
- The driver crashes (on their own, or with help) and is unable to continue the attack with the vehicle, e.g., the attack in St Jean, Canada, or westminster, or other attacks. This seems to be the most common way the ramming stops, but often precipitates a continued attack by other means.

Stopping a vehicle attack with gunfire is unreliable. You typically won't disable the vehicle in a timely manner. Incapacitating the driver is a chancy thing at best, though quantity of gunfire has a quality of its own.

The driver voluntarily dismounting to evade, or dismounting to shoot/stab isn't an element within our control.

So, what's left that we can impact is making it more likely the vehicle will crash, or being able to pin/crash into the vehicle. A vehicle can be made more likely to crash with permanent or temporary obstacles - bollards, serpentine barricades, vehicles temporarily positioned, etc. Realistically we can only do this in a few cases.

So that leaves us at square one. Some dude goes dirka dirka in a five ton truck, we need to either stop the driver with force, or force him to dismount. This basically leaves emergency responders trying to slow the threat down with our vehicles, block/stop it with our vehicles if we have the mass/horsepower, or slow him down enough that we can shoot him in the face. All of that will take time, and if the target was chosen well, mass casualties will be basically inevitable.

EDIT TO ADD: And just so it's clear, I'm not saying anything here that isn't already broadly known and covered in the media. There's nothing secret about this vulnerability.


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## Old Sweat (27 Mar 2017)

Very clear explanation, and thank you for that. These attacks seem well suited to the individual or small party who wished to strike the "enemy" with maximum shock and awe, but with a variable and uncertain result in terms of casualties. The suicide bomber or not who packs a car, van or truck with explosives is the next step up the scale of horror and effectiveness. See oh so many in Afghanistan as well as the marine barracks in Lebanon in 1983 and Oklahoma City for examples of actions that are almost impossible to defend against. These attacks require a degree of preparation and planning that might, I say again, might provide an opportunity for the security services to detect and forestall it before the event. 

As someone slated to attend the centenary of Vimy Ridge on 9 April, I can only hope (and do believe) the security services are working overtime and are preparing for all sort of contingencies.


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## Flavus101 (27 Mar 2017)

Thanks for those well thought out posts Brihard!

Old Sweat, I know someone going to that ceremony as well. I also trust that the security services are working hard.


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## jollyjacktar (27 Mar 2017)

OS, I will be there with you in spirit.  My great uncle fell on the first day with the 10Bn, I would have loved to be there for this occasion, but alas.  Have a drink and toast to them for me while you're there please and have a safe, memorable journey.


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## dave.jones3 (27 Mar 2017)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> There's very, very little evidence of any sort of a 'terrorist personality.' Radicalization is a process, not an end-state, which usually includes Group- and Individual-motivation.
> 
> Two recurring factors _seem_  to be a frustration/grievance and a charismatic personality to guide the way. The grievance can meld something like "'Crusaders' oppressing the Muslim homeland" (Group) with being bullied at school (Indiv), where they are felt as part and parcel of the same problem. There is no shortage of frustrations -- nationalism, egalitarianism, anarchy, abortion; it's not _just_  Islamist extremism....
> 
> ...



There's a think-tanker whose work I have been following closely for a while, and he has written extensively on the whole 'lone wolf' thing which, I agree, is overblown. He has a piece out today that is worth reading. 

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-kingdom/2017-03-27/lone-wolves-no-more?cid=int-lea&pgtype=hpg


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