# Member of Ceremonial Guard Wounded by Bayonet



## Old Sweat (27 Jun 2012)

A member of the Ceremonial Guard was wounded by his own bayonet when he slipped and fell marching onto the hill. Here's hoping he makes a full and speedy recovery.

This story from the Ottawa Citizen is repoduced under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act.


Ceremonial guardsman impaled by bayonet in Hill mishap

By ALICJA SIEKIERSKA, The Ottawa CitizenJune 27, 2012 1:05 PM

A member of the Governor General’s Foot Guard was injured at the Changing of the Guards ceremony on Parliament Hill on Wednesday morning. Photo: Devron Gaber


OTTAWA — A member of the Governor General’s Foot Guards was seriously injured during the Changing of the Guards ceremony on Parliament Hill Wednesday morning.

A 20-year-old male suffered a severe stab wound from his rifle-mounted bayonet after falling during the parade. Medics from the Canadian Forces immediately provided first aid to the injured man, applying pressure to his wound until paramedics arrived.

In addition to his wound, paramedics treated the man for severe blood loss. He was taken to a nearby hospital, where he is currently in serious, but stable condition.

“It was terrifying,” said a bystander who witnessed the moment when the man fell, at approximately 10:30 a.m. “You could a lot of blood covering the bayonet, and all over the ground where he fell.”

Devron Gaber, from Victoria, B.C., also witnessed the incident.

The man was screaming in pain for several minutes, but went silent once the medics began to treat him, said Gaber. Dozens of tourists remained on the scene, taking photos of the guard while he was wounded on the ground.

The man, who was marching in the last group of guards, had fallen as he was turning by the main gates of Parliament Hill. A few seconds before he fell, another guard had also slipped in the same spot, but managed to recover and continue marching, said Gaber.

Gaber believes both men had slipped on the manhole cover, located in the spot where the guards turn.

“There is a flaw in the ceremony,” said Gaber. “It’s the fact that the guards have to turn on that manhole. With the shoes they wear, several of them were slipping and losing their footing as they turned. It’s dangerous.”

This was only the second Changing of the Guard ceremony of the year. The parade started on June 26, and will be performed daily until Aug. 23.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen


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## acen (27 Jun 2012)

Hope he's alright and has a speedy recovery. No matter the context, one never wants to be on the wrong end of a bayonet.


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## exgunnertdo (27 Jun 2012)

Speedy recovery to him!

I was in CG Band in '91 when they got C7s, and the bayonets were sharp (they were used to the FN)!  I remember in the rehearsals how many nicks they were getting fixing and unfixing bayonets.  One day on parade, one of the guards got the bayonet of the guy next to him in the thigh when he stood at ease (shoulder dressing).  That must have hurt.


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## eliminator (27 Jun 2012)

Unbelievable! Hope he'll have a speedy recovery. Over the years a few RMC cadets been impaled as they passed out, but this particular incident seems to be pretty serious.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Jun 2012)

Speedy recovery to the Guardsman.


*nice of people to stand there and take pictures.   :


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## eliminator (27 Jun 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Speedy recovery to the Guardsman.
> 
> 
> *nice of people to stand there and take pictures.   :



Well, it is a major tourist spectacle and I'm sure there was even a few people who thought is was "part of the act." Just a thought.


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## Snaketnk (27 Jun 2012)

Also, any military parade I've been on has medics standing by at all times, and they're usually really fast to respond to anything. I'd stand, watch, and take photos too if there were medics there in a few seconds.


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## medicineman (27 Jun 2012)

Sewed up a guy a few years ago that was stabbed in the back by the dude behind him during a present arms...myself I tore a pocket on a old work dress shirt (didn't iron or starch it well enough - take a lesson here) doing a shoulder arms - better the pocket though than me.

Hope dude is doing better.

MM


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## Strike (27 Jun 2012)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Also, any military parade I've been on has medics standing by at all times, and they're usually really fast to respond to anything. I'd stand, watch, and take photos too if there were medics there in a few seconds.



Speedy recovery to the soldier.

As to those who would take pictures of another person's suffering, why?  So you could show your friends and get a couple more notches up on the cool factor?  Or maybe try to sell it to the papers for a few bucks?

Maybe it's an age or generation gap.  I didn't think I was THAT old though.


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## Remius (27 Jun 2012)

It's the herd mentality.  Someone else will take action.  I had to help a blind guy out of the street once.  At least 50 people at the bus stop saw him wander out there.  Not one even bothered to yell out.  

But yes, the medics are always nearby so no doubt they reacted faster than anyone behind the barriers could.


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## exgunnertdo (27 Jun 2012)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Also, any military parade I've been on has medics standing by at all times, and they're usually really fast to respond to anything.



Yes, always medics on the CG parades.



			
				eliminator said:
			
		

> Well, it is a major tourist spectacle and I'm sure there was even a few people who thought is was "part of the act." Just a thought.



No doubt.  : When I did that gig, there was always great excitement from the crowd when someone thundered in and lots of picture snapping.  This was adults, over 20 years ago, so not the "current" generation.


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## Strike (27 Jun 2012)

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> No doubt.  : When I did that gig, there was always great excitement from the crowd when someone thundered in and lots of picture snapping.  This was adults, over 20 years ago, so not the "current" generation.



That's fine to those ignorant of the CF and anything military, but when there's lots of blood OR we have serving members here saying THEY would ALSO take pictures, I find that just plain ignorant and without tact.  I hope the initial responders made a point of shielding the member's face from the cameras.  Talk about possible issues regarding the privacy act to anyone stupid enough to post any identifying pics on FB, Twitter, etc.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Jun 2012)

IMO, not to mention just plain ol common decency too.

My camera wouldn't have been going while some young troop was bleeding and wounded.  

 :2c:


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## Remius (27 Jun 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> That's fine to those ignorant of the CF and anything military, but when there's lots of blood OR we have serving members here saying THEY would ALSO take pictures, I find that just plain ignorant and without tact.  I hope the initial responders made a point of shielding the member's face from the cameras.  Talk about possible issues regarding the privacy act to anyone stupid enough to post any identifying pics on FB, Twitter, etc.



Over the years the papers and interweb is littered with photos of guards going down.  It isn't new.  CG while traditional and all that is still a major tourist draw for Ottawa.  There are postcards and photos all over the place (I'm in a few  ;D).  People bring cameras to take pics of the parade.  So there are thousands of cameras on Parliament Hill everyday.  Not saying it's right, just with this digital age it's becoming the norm.

As for the privacy act I don't think anything that happened there violated any privacy issues.


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## Strike (27 Jun 2012)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Over the years the papers and interweb is littered with photos of guards going down.  It isn't new.  CG while traditional and all that is still a major tourist draw for Ottawa.  There are postcards and photos all over the place (I'm in a few  ;D).  People bring cameras to take pics of the parade.  So there are thousands of cameras on Parliament Hill everyday.  Not saying it's right, just with this digital age it's becoming the norm.
> 
> *As for the privacy act I don't think anything that happened there violated any privacy issues.*



If the member is identified, as are the injuries, then it becomes a privacy issue.

The CF, IAW the Privcay Act, does not release the names of those injured OR the extent of their injuries.  That is up to the member to do.  Obviously, we aren't going to argue that the member was stabbed, but you'll notice that they didn't say how badly he was injured (arteries, soft-tissue damage, etc) and stuck to "serious but stable," all IAW the Privacy Act.

Photos in the papers and online all make a point of NOT showing the member's face, thankfully.  All we need is one yahoo to post their own pics on an open source without the member's approval and they can find themselves in a heap of trouble.

Just a warning to those out there who might find it cool to capture these moments in the future and post online for everyone to see.


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## bridges (27 Jun 2012)

It's a very unusual situation - people tend to want to take pictures of those, often before common decency and restraint kick in.  A bit boorish, yes, but hardly a surprising element of human nature.  I'm just glad the guy's apparently going to be ok, and hopefully his family doesn't have to see those pictures on the internet somewhere.    

My last year in CG rank-and-file was '90; the rest of the CF had switched to the C7s but we stuck with the FNs for one more season, and I have to say, it was a relief at the time.  Plus, the wooden forestocks occasionally broke with the force of hitting them during drill, which was much-lauded whenever it happened.  

Kudos to the medics in this sit.


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## Remius (27 Jun 2012)

Except that the member was performing a duty that actually has him in the public eye.  Guardsmen going down have had their pics and faces in papers before and are easily recognisable.  And the people on twitter and facebook talking about it are likely going to be the members of CG.

Taking pics of people in public on public land doing public things is not a violation of the privacy act.

If the CF release details they shouldn't then yes.  But that didn't happen.


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## Snaketnk (27 Jun 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> That's fine to those ignorant of the CF and anything military, but when there's lots of blood OR we have serving members here saying THEY would ALSO take pictures, I find that just plain ignorant and without tact.  I hope the initial responders made a point of shielding the member's face from the cameras.  Talk about possible issues regarding the privacy act to anyone stupid enough to post any identifying pics on FB, Twitter, etc.



If were a bystander behind the barriers and something like this happened; and it was obvious that medical attention was being provided and my interference wouldn't help at all, you're right, I probably would snap couple photos, because it's something notable and in my world, news-worthy at least. I don't see a lack of tact in documenting things I see, as long as I'm causing no harm in any way. I never said anything about publishing the photos, I would never do that. It's in a public place, and what's basically a show. Would you blame people at the Nova Scotia Tattoo if they took pictures of an accident that happened during a performance? It's not so much a "ooh cool" it's a "this is noteable, I want to remember this as it happened." Memory is a fickle thing.


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## bridges (27 Jun 2012)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I tore a pocket on a old work dress shirt (didn't iron or starch it well enough - take a lesson here) doing a shoulder arms - better the pocket though than me.



Heh heh... ironing/starch as a safety measure...you can never be too careful!  :nod:


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Jun 2012)

When I was a cadet, apparently one of the kids stuck themselves with a spike bayonet while shouldering arms, ouch...


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## dogger1936 (27 Jun 2012)

Hope the guy is doing well. What an unlucky turn of events!


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## MapleLeaf4Evr (27 Jun 2012)

I hope the member has a speedy recovery.  Good on the other members and the medics on scene.  It sounds like they saved his life.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Jun 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Speedy recovery to the soldier.
> 
> As to those who would take pictures of another person's suffering, why?  So you could show your friends and get a couple more notches up on the cool factor?  Or maybe try to sell it to the papers for a few bucks?
> 
> Maybe it's an age or generation gap.  I didn't think I was THAT old though.



Only an asshole would do that.


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## dogger1936 (27 Jun 2012)

On a lighter note; I'm sure the ribbing he is gonna get once better will hurt almost as bad as the wound!My father in law was a GGFG way back when and of course called telling stories of other such incidents.


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## cupper (27 Jun 2012)

On a more important note, what are they going to do to rectify the problem with the manhole?


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## Strike (27 Jun 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> On a more important note, what are they going to do to rectify the problem with the manhole?



Had to chuckle at some of the comments.  One woman just couldn't BELIEVE that people would be parading with sharpened knives! Even if there was no tip to those things it would still cause some damage if one were to fall on it.

Anyway, chicks dig scars.


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## Hunter (27 Jun 2012)

Hopefully the issue with the manhole cover will be addressed, but it has been a parade hazard for years. The problem is exacerbated by coming off the usually-Dewey lawn onto the pavement and executing a right turn on the march on parade boots with clickers. Fwiw the guardsman in question was not as badly injured as the press suggested, and he will be fine.

The funniest bayonet stabbing at CG that I ever saw was a kid from CGG who was on the drill team. During a short break in practice a bug landed on his hand and he shook it off but in doing so he slammed his hand onto buddy's bayonet. After that we nicknamed him handjob.


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## Blackadder1916 (27 Jun 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> On a more important note, what are they going to do to rectify the problem with the manhole?



Ahh. . . . how would staffing a solution to the manhole cover go . . . _now imagine some of those fancy soft fade out special effects on TV when someone's mind shifts to flights of fancy_

The report of injuries and the general safety accident report are initiated.  Evidence is collected and the summary investigation is completed.  The reports are forwarded to higher formation/commnad in accordance with the normal distribution.  The recommendation that action be taken to prevent similar incidents in the future is accepted and it is proposed that the matter be studied.

After extensive study it is realized that the manhole cover is not on DND property and thus command refers the matter to NDHQ who will liaise with the appropriate agency responsible for that particular cover for rectification of the problem.  Due to the location of the cover and its connection with the sewage/drainage system, there is a delay while determining who is the actual owner.  It is unclear whether to contact the National Capital Commission, the City of Ottawa or Parliament.  After preliminary informal talks with these it is suggested that a mid-level multi-jurisdictional taskforce be formed to study the situation.  Due to the level of negotiations outside the department, it is recommended that the DND rep be at the Col/Snr Ex level.  A major, a captain and an infantry MWO (as SME on marching) are also tasked to assist in preparing the (heavily Power Pointed) departmental presentation to the taskforce.

Initial meetings of the multi-jurisdictional taskforce seem to go well, however, since there is limited Canadian documented study about the slip co-efficient between boots and manhole covers (plus additional study re variants of sole composition and attachments) it is recommended that (while waiting for DRDC Toronto to complete such studies) the taskforce view a "Changing of the Guard" in order to better understand the matter.  As, by this time, the Ceremonial Guard has ceased (since it is no longer summertime), it is suggested that the panel make a visit to London, England so that they may be able to accomplish the same goal.


. . . . . . . .   _ special effects fade back to normal_


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## dapaterson (27 Jun 2012)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Ahh. . . . how would staffing a solution to the manhole cover go . . . _now imagine some of those fancy soft fade out special effects on TV when someone's mind shifts to flights of fancy_
> 
> The report of injuries and the general safety accident report are initiated.  Evidence is collected and the summary investigation is completed.  The reports are forwarded to higher formation/commnad in accordance with the normal distribution.  The recommendation that action be taken to prevent similar incidents in the future is accepted and it is proposed that the matter be studied.
> 
> ...



Your timeframe is unreasonable - it assumes that anything at all would happen before 2013.

We all know government shuts down for the summer...


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## Robert0288 (27 Jun 2012)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Ahh. . . . how would staffing a solution to the manhole cover go . . . _now imagine some of those fancy soft fade out special effects on TV when someone's mind shifts to flights of fancy_
> 
> The report of injuries and the general safety accident report are initiated.  Evidence is collected and the summary investigation is completed.  The reports are forwarded to higher formation/commnad in accordance with the normal distribution.  The recommendation that action be taken to prevent similar incidents in the future is accepted and it is proposed that the matter be studied.
> 
> ...



I don't know how he does it.  But this guy is a fortune teller.  That or someone's solution would be to remove the offending manhole cover and/or put up large warning signs around the man hole cover warning of potential slip hazard.


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## Blackadder1916 (27 Jun 2012)

What makes you think that events in my scenario (other than CF98s and CF663s leaving the unit) occur anytime in this year or 2013 for that matter?  I've been "from NDHQ and here to help" and actually seen things like accident reports and MACRs that I initiated two, three or four years previously (before posting to NDHQ) and even one from before I was commissioned cross my desk for staffing.


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## brihard (27 Jun 2012)

Meanwhile, the Sgt running RQMS - the best boss and worst PDR I've ever had - ever a practically minded man, will probably just buy some sheets of 1/32" rubber and some contact cement, have the storesmen I tasked him cut them into 2" x 2" squares, and distribute the above to PD coy to be glued to the ball of the foot on the parade boots just aft of the clicker.

That manhole cover's a real bastard. I know it well. Too well.


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## Sythen (27 Jun 2012)

Or some slightly inebriated and enterprising young soldiers, during the night, could pour maple syrup and sand over the offending cover and hope it doesn't rain.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Or some slightly inebriated and enterprising young soldiers, during the night, could pour maple syrup and sand over the offending cover and hope it doesn't rain.



Spoken like a true public sector manager\ supervisor.


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## Sythen (28 Jun 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Spoken like a true public sector manager\ supervisor.



I don't get it.  :dunno:


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## Edward Campbell (28 Jun 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> Speedy recovery to the soldier.
> 
> As to those who would take pictures of another person's suffering, why?  So you could show your friends and get a couple more notches up on the cool factor?  Or maybe try to sell it to the papers for a few bucks?
> 
> Maybe it's an age or generation gap.  I didn't think I was THAT old though.




Someone took a picture and a newspaper, the _Ottawa Citizen_, published it. Now, in fairness, it is news; my daily walk often takes me to the Hill when the Ceremonial Guard* is there and I have never seen a soldier "thunder in," much less injure him/herself.

__________
* Is the proper name _Ceremonial Guard_ or, as it was many, many years ago, the _Public Duties Detachment_?


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## brihard (28 Jun 2012)

"Ceremonial Guard" is correct. The parade is conducted by the "public duties company" and the band.

My recollection from a few summers back is we'd average a troop thunder in two or three times a week. It seemed to more often be musicians, but sometimes riflemen too. A few years back one of the three guard commanders rather epicly passed out and went down hard during the parade.

Those manholes are a menace, but this is the first time I'm aware of someone actually being injured and not just bouncing back up to carry on.


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## bridges (28 Jun 2012)

I haven't seen that manhole cover for many years, and never took a good look at the time ... I wonder if they could replace it with a slip-resistant texture, like what they have on curbs at transitway stops in Ottawa, where the surface has bumps and each bump has many smaller protrusions on it.  The surface looks like a metal file or something.  I imagine that was designed to prevent slipping in boots, snow etc.  Might help with cleats too-?  

But then to enact such a thing would probably require something along the lines of what Blackadder16 envisioned.  Maybe a late-night run with 1/32" rubber and contact cement is in order - on the manhole cover, not guards' boots.


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## eliminator (28 Jun 2012)

I didn't realize that the Ottawa citizen posted a video of the incident as well. Pretty intense to say the least.


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## PuckChaser (28 Jun 2012)

eliminator said:
			
		

> I didn't realize that the Ottawa citizen posted a video of the incident as well. Pretty intense to say the least.



Just watched it, fortunately you don't see the actual stab, only his reaction after. Thankfully it was only his upper arm, and hopefully he'll make a full recovery. What I assume are GD pers are there literally within seconds to help him out, good to see.


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## Bzzliteyr (28 Jun 2012)

Isn't this called an "accident"?  

I mean, unfortunate and all but if it is the one time this has happened in a long time, if ever, shouldn't we just say "shit happens" and carry on instead of planning for destruction of said manhole cover?


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## GAP (28 Jun 2012)

As this is a consistant problem in this location could not the manhole cover be made more traction friendly.....


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## PuckChaser (28 Jun 2012)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Isn't this called an "accident"?
> 
> I mean, unfortunate and all but if it is the one time this has happened in a long time, if ever, shouldn't we just say "crap happens" and carry on instead of planning for destruction of said manhole cover?



And maybe the next guy to slip on it stabs himself in the chest or the guy in front of him in the kidney? Why not fix a problem which seems like a relatively simple fix to PREVENT injuries? Seems like you're advocating Darwinism so we can cull the herd of the ceremonial guard.


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## GAP (28 Jun 2012)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Seems like you're advocating Darwinism so we can cull the herd of the ceremonial guard.



and this is a bad thing?


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## Bzzliteyr (28 Jun 2012)

N





			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> And maybe the next guy to slip on it stabs himself in the chest or the guy in front of him in the kidney? Why not fix a problem which seems like a relatively simple fix to PREVENT injuries? Seems like you're advocating Darwinism so we can cull the herd of the ceremonial guard.



Not quite but we tend to knee jerk react to things like this.  Society feels they need to protect their little snowflakes anytime anyone gets hurt.

It's like the story I heard about Armour crewman wanting steel toed boots back in the day.  When pushing the request higher it was noted that the number of crewman who had accidents that steel toed boots could have prevented was so little it didn't justify it.

If you take into consideration the (most likely true) story by BlackAdder, the costs of fixing this vs the costs of just telling everyone to "BE CAREFUL ON THE CORNER" will definetly be more.  Maybe we can just take the bayonets away from all of them so no one gets cut?  But then, what if a soldier trips and pokes his eye out with his C7?  Better take them away as well?

I may have brought my ideas to the table all messed up but I think you see where I am going here.


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## Dirt Digger (28 Jun 2012)

Long term solution:  Google "nonslip manhole cover."  Buy result.

Short term solution:  One private, one brush, one can of black nonslip deck paint.  (One Bioscience Officer to supervise  ;D )


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## Haggis (28 Jun 2012)

Dirt Digger said:
			
		

> Long term solution:  Google "nonslip manhole cover."  Buy result.



Is there an engineering study on file to justify this expenditure of public funds?  Moreover, is this a proper and authorized use of government IT resources?  The correct manner to solicit bids and then purchase a non-slip manhole cover (is "manhole" even politically correct?) would be to take the aforementioned engineering study, draft a stastement of requirements and post it on MERX.



			
				Dirt Digger said:
			
		

> Short term solution:  One private, one brush, one can of black nonslip deck paint.  (One Bioscience Officer to supervise  ;D )



Followed by a grievance and lawsuit by OPSEU aganst the DND/CF for taking work away from unionized city/NCC employees


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## Jarnhamar (28 Jun 2012)

Dirt Digger said:
			
		

> Long term solution:  Google "nonslip manhole cover."  Buy result.



Get sued for not putting a tender out to various companies to allow them to bid on said manhole cover.

Come up with a set of tests the product needs to pass.

All products fail test.

Test is rewriten.

More bids, more testing.  One company finally wins.

Company takes additional 6 years to design the product and deliever it.

Long term solution indeed.


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## Remius (28 Jun 2012)

Stabbings at CG have been going on for a while.  Mostly during practice but a few times on the hill most people think the guy fainted or he toughs it out until the end and deals with it when he gets back (Not recommended as we had one guy pass out when he got to the drill hall).  Likely it will happen again.  I can think of about 3 serious cases in 10 years not counting this one.

However the manhole cover and that particular incline coming off the hill has been a problem area for years.  Troops have taken spills there on more than one occasion.  This is not a one time thing.  In this case it had more serious results.  This is more of a case of "well it was bound to happen at some point" and it finally did and unfortunately it takes that to take action.  So if they make it safer for the troops coming off the hill then good.  I always thought it would be someone smashing the back of their head or injuring their backs but it turned out to be a bayonet.  There's no reason they can't have a safe workplace like everyone else.

The story is somewhat blown way out of proportion but whatever.  slow news week when the house is adjourned.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Jun 2012)

If it was a summer student that got stabbed, they might be inclined to start a lawsuit, which might actually force someone to fix the issue.


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## bridges (28 Jun 2012)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Is there an engineering study on file to justify this expenditure of public funds?  Moreover, is this a proper and authorized use of government IT resources?  The correct manner to solicit bids and then purchase a non-slip manhole cover (is "manhole" even politically correct?) would be to take the aforementioned engineering study, draft a stastement of requirements and post it on MERX.
> 
> Followed by a grievance and lawsuit by OPSEU aganst the DND/CF for taking work away from unionized city/NCC employees



[and others who've posted similar scenarios]

The bureaucrats don't have to do a thing... we're so well-trained, we put up our own roadblocks now.


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## a_majoor (28 Jun 2012)

While all the paperwork is being typed up for action on Vimy centennial day (which if the issuance of the 1812 bicentennial pins is any indication, will take place in 2020); some enterprising young troop(s) could take a page from Mythbusters and spray truck bed lineer on the offending manhole cover one night. The alternative would be to get a mixture of paint and sand and apply the home made "no slip" surface; however you have to time this so the mixture has a day or two to dry.

In either case make sure the colour matches the original fairly closely; a bright yellow or international saftey orange manhole cover might arouse some comment, and public works will probably remove it right away and replace it with a "regulation" one until the paperwork is staffed and vetted.....


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## bridges (28 Jun 2012)

...while creating a distraction for the RCMP officers who are parked right there?


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## Haggis (28 Jun 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Get sued for not putting a tender out to various companies to allow them to bid on said manhole cover.
> 
> Come up with a set of tests the product needs to pass.
> 
> ...



Sounds like you're buying an LSVW or four.....


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## cupper (28 Jun 2012)

OK, so my first question opens up a can of worms.

But maybe we are looking at this all wrong. 

We could develop a solution in house, and address the real problem, that CG's are getting hurt using bayonets. 

Maybe we need to replace the real bayonet with a rubber bayonet. ;D

Or one made of stainless steel that has a dull edge and with a big ball on the end to prevent stabbing (I've actually seen ceremonial bayonets like this in museums). :nod:


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## aesop081 (28 Jun 2012)

No, no. You have it wrong as well.

The solution, clearly, is a one day awareness course, complete with consultant presenter and video, on bayonet and manhole cover  safety and regulations. All CF members who may come into contact with a bayonet or parades will be required to complete this training NLT October 1st. This is to be top priority for all commanders.


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## cupper (28 Jun 2012)

or we could go back to wearing chain mail and steel breast plates and helmets.

(But then the Armoured Corps might get all up in arms.)


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## cupper (28 Jun 2012)

Better still, have the CG march to the driveway entrance, then load them on trucks and drive across the manhole, then dismount and continue on their merry way.

Problem solved.


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## aesop081 (28 Jun 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> Problem solved.



Yes but then, another problem.

Who drives the trucks ? MSE Ops or Armoured Recce ?


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## Michael OLeary (28 Jun 2012)

Surely there's a simpler way. Couldn't we just lay an AVLB across the hazard each day?


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## Kat Stevens (28 Jun 2012)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Surely there's a simpler way. Couldn't we just lay an AVLB across the hazard each day?



Nope, all AVLB bridges now condemned, chassis suitable as driver trainers only.


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## Words_Twice (28 Jun 2012)

3PPCLI did a Freedom of the City parade in the summer of 87, a couple of months after we got the C-7s. After the CO finished pounding on City Halls door with his sword, we did a fix bayonets, and buddy somehow jabbed his left  thumb on the bayonet, and as we marched back to Workpoint, he was spraying everyone within 10 feet in blood (we were wearing the new tan DEUs).


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## Gunner98 (29 Jun 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Someone took a picture and a newspaper, the _Ottawa Citizen_, published it. Now, in fairness, it is news; my daily walk often takes me to the Hill when the Ceremonial Guard* is there and I have never seen a soldier "thunder in," much less injure him/herself.
> 
> __________
> * Is the proper name _Ceremonial Guard_ or, as it was many, many years ago, the _Public Duties Detachment_?



This is the second serious injury for this group.  Another soldier stab himself in the shoulder doing a shoulder arms during the final rehearsals earlier in the week.  It is going to be a long, hot summer.


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## bridges (29 Jun 2012)

Metal cleats can be tricky to march in, or even just carry your breakfast tray in the mess without ending up on the floor.   Metal-on-metal - sounds like a recipe for falling down.  

Where's the manhole cover in relation to their path - I don't suppose it's possible to move their right-wheel a foot or two to the left?


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## acen (29 Jun 2012)

Heard through the grapevine: PWGSC was out putting non-slip paint on the offending manhole covers yesterday (28 Jun). Hopefully this will improve the situation.


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## missionessential (30 Jun 2012)

speedy recovery troop


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## LineJumper (1 Jul 2012)

Perhaps a request to 765 to have a Lineman remove the offending manhole cover for the duration of the ceremony?

(Edit to add)

"Sir, we marched off with 3 files."


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Jul 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> Metal cleats can be tricky to march in, or even just carry your breakfast tray in the mess without ending up on the floor.   Metal-on-metal - sounds like a recipe for falling down.
> 
> Where's the manhole cover in relation to their path - I don't suppose it's possible to move their right-wheel a foot or two to the left?



This.  I came back to post when I had the epiphany of the fact that it was most likely the metal "clickers" that so many put under their boots.  What authority is given for that?  I'm not sure I recall anything in the dress manual about them.  If a CF98/accident report was done that should definitely be something to look at as a "cause" if it was the case.


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## ModlrMike (4 Jul 2012)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> This.  I came back to post when I had the epiphany of the fact that it was most likely the metal "clickers" that so many put under their boots.  What authority is given for that?  I'm not sure I recall anything in the dress manual about them.  If a CF98/accident report was done that should definitely be something to look at as a "cause" if it was the case.



More likely a 663 Safety Report as well.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jul 2012)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> This.  I came back to post when I had the epiphany of the fact that it was most likely the metal "clickers" that so many put under their boots.  What authority is given for that?  I'm not sure I recall anything in the dress manual about them.  If a CF98/accident report was done that should definitely be something to look at as a "cause" if it was the case.



They were a standard part of getting your boots done for years. It was just what was done. No need for authority. During Basic, you took one pair of boots and one pair of shoes to the shoemaker and had them double soled, double heeled and cleated. No idea what they do now.

I've had my boots done this way since the mid sixties, and still do. Many of our troops also have them. Our kit shop even sold cleats at one point, because they were hard to find.


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## dapaterson (4 Jul 2012)

A quick perusal of the drill manual and the dress manual didn't reveal any CF authority / direction to modify boots like this.  Of course, someone will claim it's tradition, so common sense be damned.


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## JorgSlice (4 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> They were a standard part of getting your boots done for years. It was just what was done. No need for authority. During Basic, you took one pair of boots and one pair of shoes to the shoemaker and had them double soled, double heeled and cleated. No idea what they do now.
> 
> I've had my boots done this way since the mid sixties, and still do. Many of our troops also have them. Our kit shop even sold cleats at one point, because they were hard to find.



From what I hear, apparently they're not permitted for wear anymore because they pose a slip, trip, and fall hazard on some floor surfaces depending on the materials used (paints, primers if any etc.). Also, being not permitted for wear around aircraft especially through smaller airports on smaller domestic lines which require you to walk across the pavement out to the stairs in order to board (although I don't know how often one would do so, in DEU with cleated boots). This is true when I was a cadet moons ago, but Is this true for the CF or not? I don't know, just what I heard on the grapevine of end-of-day grumblings before dinner   that it affected all services and branches. If someone in the know could clarify, that'd be super.

P.S. I love the sound of (hundreds) of cleated boots on parade. It'd be a shame if it was in fact, not permitted anymore.

Edit: Apparently, as dapaterson stated, it wasn't even permitted in the first place.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jul 2012)

It's a moot point until the investigation proves that was the cause.

I'm not going to speculate.


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## brihard (4 Jul 2012)

Every rank and file on parade wears clickers on their boots. Having been there, done that I'll quite readily speculate that the clickers are in part or whole at fault. They're bloody dangerous, and I know few guys who've done CG and not wiped out in them.


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Jul 2012)

I got mine done when I joined and still have them on.  I admit they are nice to hear and sound impressive but i have seen a few people slip thanks to them and suspect it to be the case here.


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## George Wallace (4 Jul 2012)

My very first pair of ankle boots ever issued had clickers on toes and heels.  They were also pebbled and a #*&^%!& to get shone......but when that was finally accomplished, they really shone up nice.

Hobnail, cleats, clickers, whatever, were a means of prolonging the life of the boot cutting down on wear to the heels and toes.   Also, like the old web belts, a useful 'tool' in a fight.

Just saying.


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## tango22a (4 Jul 2012)

Years ago, I saw a certain L/Sgt  slide down a cobblestone ramp in his hobnailed and clickered parade boots. Once he reached level ground he was fine . He later commanded the Regiment. I believe he still has these boots.

tango22a.


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## George Wallace (4 Jul 2012)

Going back a few posts, the older members of the forum will tell you that Clickers on boots, even if they were issued boots, were NOT ALLOWED on the Flight Line, as in the days of regular (daily) Service Flights, the order of dress to travel was CF uniform (now called DEU).   Clickers were not allowed on boots in many locations due to the possibility of generating sparks that could ignite combustibles/fumes.  Times have changed.  Boots no longer come issued with metal on heels or toes.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jul 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Going back a few posts, the older members of the forum will tell you that Clickers on boots, even if they were issued boots, were NOT ALLOWED on the Flight Line, as in the days of regular (daily) Service Flights, the order of dress to travel was CF uniform (now called DEU).   Clickers were not allowed on boots in many locations due to the possibility of generating sparks that could ignite combustibles/fumes.  Times have changed.  Boots no longer come issued with metal on heels or toes.



FOD is probably the larger hazard with them. 

I remember having to walk out to the Boeing in my gray socks and carrying my boots  ;D


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## aesop081 (4 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> FOD is probably the larger hazard with them.
> 
> I remember having to walk out to the Boeing in my gray socks and carrying my boots  ;D



Which is a BS excuse. If you are wearing DEU ( the land one even more so), there's a metric shit ton of other stuff that can create FOD. No one was telling you to remove ribbons/medals, ranks, command badges, etc... were they ?


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jul 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Which is a BS excuse. If you are wearing DEU ( the land one even more so), there's a metric shit ton of other stuff that can create FOD. No one was telling you to remove ribbons/medals, ranks, command badges, etc... were they ?



Don't really care what the reason was. FOD or sparks. Meh, nada. 

Just sayin' I had to walk out to the Boeing, in my Greens, at the instruction of the guy at the AMU. 
Take it up with him. 

Didn't bother me then, doesn't now. 

Don't get yourself wrapped around the horizontal stabilizer about something that happened to me 40 years ago. 

I've let it go, quite some time ago.


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## mariomike (4 Jul 2012)

Letter to the Editor on the subject.

"Ceremonial guards are professional, disciplined:

I was a member of the very first Ceremonial Guard from 1969 to 1971 (it was then called Public Duties Detachment) when the two militia regiments from Montreal, the Canadian Grenadier Guards, and Ottawa, the Governor General Foot Guards, took the ceremony over from the Royal Canadian Regiment.

I have seen my fair share of my comrades slipping on manhole covers particularly after a light rain and I very nearly suffered that same fate on several occasions myself. The metal cleats under our boots sometimes made it difficult to keep our footing under those conditions.":


Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Ceremonial+guards+professional+disciplined/6852077/story.html#ixzz1zg49953i


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## dapaterson (4 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I've let it go, quite some time ago.



Crown Royal.  Is there anything it can't do?


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jul 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Crown Royal.  Is there anything it can't do?



I'd like to see it pay my child support that it's responsible for..


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## Rheostatic (5 Jul 2012)

Whoops


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## Haggis (5 Jul 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It's a moot point until the investigation proves that was the cause.



*OLD SCHOOL COMMENT - INSENSITIVITY ALERT!*Of course the investigation will determine that the soldier is wholly at fault.  Shoddy drill (failure to properly execute a drill movement as taught and ordered - i.e  Neglect to the Prejudice of Good Order and Discipline contrary to NDA S 129) is the obvious cause as the equipment issued to the soldier functioned exactly as designed and intended.

*OLD SCHOOL COMMENT CONCLUDED - INSENSITIVITY ALERT ENDED.*

While a member of CG in the early 80's, I, too, have been a victim of that damned manhole cover and was almost knocked out of ranks by a solder on my left who also was attacked at that spot.


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## aesop081 (5 Jul 2012)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Shoddy drill (failure to properly execute a drill movement as taught and ordered



Steps of incorrect length ?

Not enough "press down on the thumbs" ?

Pressed down on the thumbs but did not take the bends out of the elbows ?

Too much "dig the heels in" ?

Did not "bring it around in threes ?

Inside man did not "step short" ?

Outside man did not "step out" enough ?


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## cupper (5 Jul 2012)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> Whoops



Interesting to note that when the guardsman in the video lost his footing, he was slipping on the pavement and not the manhole cover.

There could be more to this than meets the eye.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:


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## 57Chevy (5 Jul 2012)

IMO, an excellent recovery.

Shyte happens. :yellow:


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## bridges (9 Jul 2012)

In response to comments about soldiers adding clickers to their boots:  when I first joined the CF it was to do Ceremonial Guard.  My 2 pairs of drill boots were issued with clickers on, as were the boots of my 300 closest friends at the time.  There was no choice, and taking the clickers off almost certainly would have been punished.  Their purpose was specifically to make the impressive sound when marching.  We were told, at the time, not to walk through hangars or anywhere where there was a spark hazard.  

It was only after I'd finished with CG and gone on to other parts of the CF, that I was issued with non-clicker parade boots.

As to a regulatory basis for the CF to add clickers to all of our boots... who knows.  There are many things different about CG.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Jul 2012)

Cornwallis in '89, 2 pair of ankle boots issued, one pair went to the cobbler for double-soles and clickers.  It wasn't an option.


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## brihard (9 Jul 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> Interesting to note that when the guardsman in the video lost his footing, he was slipping on the pavement and not the manhole cover.
> 
> There could be more to this than meets the eye.  :Tin-Foil-Hat:



I know that dude- I was his section commander for a year; he's from my unit up until recently. The video recently made the rounds to everybody's amusement.

The clickers are a hazard. That's no surprise to anybody, and should be a no brainer to anyone who cares to look. Hardly a 'more than meets the eye' situation...


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## Remius (9 Jul 2012)

That particular spot overall, the incline going down, the pavement, the manhole cover, and the actual drill movement in that particular spot, all of it is a hazard.  i've slipped a few times there myself.  And it wasn't the manhole for me.


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## Jarnhamar (9 Jul 2012)

No one gives a shit until someone gets seriously hurt or killed then the finger pointing will start.

Political parties will pay a token lip service to the injured soldier then use the issue to bicker at each other.

The MND will send out a CF wide email about work place safety.

I'll try and reply the CF wide email because I'm lonesome at work but won't be able to. 

[I'll sadly reflect on the fact that I don't even get joke emails]
 ;D


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## Words_Twice (11 Jul 2012)

You could have Blakeys and a double sole put on in Cyprus for a couple of pounds.  Sounded cool when the entire battalion did  a march past, but they were downright dangerous. I ended up on my ass a few times.


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## Haletown (9 Aug 2012)

maybe time to update the ceremonial drill format . . .   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p0DsVPkyZg&feature=related


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