# Armored Units In West Germany



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Thomas A Bisping <tbisping1@Juno.com>* on *Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:23:00 -0600*
Can anyone tell me how armored units were assigned to 4 CMBG, in West
Germany?  I know the infantry battalions were rotated by their parent
regiments.  I would feel safe to say that battalions of the RCHA were
rotated.  I was wondering did the individual armored regiments
periodically rotate, or was one permanently posted to NATO and West
Germany?  If this is the case were recruits shipped overseas after
recruit and trade training to this permanent regiment?  Having served in
the US Army, where battalions are permanently located and personnel
rotate in and out.  Look forward to your answers!  Tom Bisping
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:08:16 EST*
Hey tom,
        I was just about to ‘correct‘ your spelling of armour, but seeing as 
you‘ve taken it upon yourself to stray from the Queen‘s English, I thought, 
‘Why beat a dead horse‘!
        Just kidding, buddy. I don‘t know as much as most members on the 
list, so I have to poke shots where I can! :
                -Matt B.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:23 -0500*
I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused me to 
revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages of the 
Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John Grodzinski 
LDSH:
4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany from 1957 
to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, the brigade 
name was:
    1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group
    1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp
    1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group
    1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
    1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde
The Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
    1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD
    1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
    1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH
    1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH RC
    1970-1987 - RCD
    1987-1993 - 8 CH
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> Hey tom,
>         I was just about to ‘correct‘ your spelling of armour, but 
seeing as
> you‘ve taken it upon yourself to stray from the Queen‘s English, I 
thought,
> ‘Why beat a dead horse‘!
>         Just kidding, buddy. I don‘t know as much as most members on 
the
> list, so I have to poke shots where I can! :
>                 -Matt B.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
I deleted the original message to this, 
but Matt‘s
mail caused me to revisit it. And I found the following information in 
"Lineages
of the Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present"compiled by Capt John 
Grodzinski LDSH:
4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was 
stationed
in Germany from 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the 
sticklers,
the brigade name was:
 1957-1968 - 4 
Canadian Infantry
Brigade Group
 1968-1970 - 4 Cdn 
Mechanized Inf
Bde Gp
 1970-1973 - 4 Cdn 
Mech Battle
Group
 1973-1989 - 4 Cdn 
Mech Bde
Gp
 1989-1993 - 4 Cdn 
Mech
Bde
The Brigade‘s Armoured units 
were:
 1957-1959 - Royal 
Canadian
Dragoons RCD
 1959-1962 - 8th 
Canadian Hussars
Princess Louise 8 CH
 1962-1965 - Fort 
Garry Horse
FGH
 1965-1970 - Lord 
Strathcona‘s
Horse Royal Canadians LdSH RC
 1970-1987 - 
RCD
 1987-1993 - 8 
CH
Mike
The Regimental
Rogue
2001 
Canadian
Military History Calendar
----- Original Message ----- 
From: ltJuno847627709@aol.comgt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 9:08 
PM
Subject: Re: Armored Units In West
Germany
gt Hey tom,gt
 I was just about to ‘correct‘ 
your
spelling of armour, but seeing as gt you‘ve taken it upon yourself 
to
stray from the Queen‘s English, I thought, gt ‘Why beat a dead
horse‘!gt  Just kidding, 
buddy.
I don‘t know as much as most members on the gt list, so I have to 
poke
shots where I can! :gt
nbsp
-Matt B.gt
--------------------------------------------------------gt 
NOTE: To
remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the 
account you
wish togt remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in 
thegt
message body.gt 
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Thomas A Bisping <tbisping1@Juno.com>* on *Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:16:50 -0600*
Matt:
     take your shots.  I don‘t mind!  Figured this would be the place to
ask!  Tom
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:08:16 EST Juno847627709@aol.com writes:
> Hey tom,
>         I was just about to ‘correct‘ your spelling of armour, but 
> seeing as 
> you‘ve taken it upon yourself to stray from the Queen‘s English, I 
> thought, 
> ‘Why beat a dead horseÂ¦lsquo;!
>         Just kidding, buddy. I don‘t know as much as most members on 
> the 
> list, so I have to poke shots where I can! :
>                 -Matt B.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
________________________________________________________________
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Thomas A Bisping <tbisping1@Juno.com>* on *Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:24:58 -0600*
Mike:
     Thanks for your imput.  I served with the US Army in Germany from
1977 to 1980.  That is why I used the designation 4 CMBG.  Also, I
thought it was the RCD‘s over there, because once at Grafenwohr, I met
some Canadian Tankers, and they commented on my units title: "First
Regiment Of Dragoons."  The First U.S. Cavalry  So I‘m guessing that
new soldiers were posted directly to Germany if the were going to be
joining one of the regiments serving there.  Also the Fort Garry Horse is
a reserve unit now, isn‘t it?  Thanks again for helping educate this
Yank.  Merry Christmas!! Tom Bisping
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:23 -0500 m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
writes:
> I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused me to 
> revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages of 
> the Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John 
> Grodzinski LDSH:
> 
> 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany from 
> 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, the 
> brigade name was:
>     1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group
>     1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp
>     1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group
>     1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
>     1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde
> 
> The Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
>     1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD
>     1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
>     1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH
>     1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH 
> RC
>     1970-1987 - RCD
>     1987-1993 - 8 CH
> 
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> The Regimental Rogue
> 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 9:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> 
> 
> > Hey tom,
> >         I was just about to ‘correct‘ your spelling of armour, but 
> seeing as 
> > you‘ve taken it upon yourself to stray from the Queen‘s English, I 
> thought, 
> > ‘Why beat a dead horse‘!
> >         Just kidding, buddy. I don‘t know as much as most members 
> on the 
> > list, so I have to poke shots where I can! :
> >                 -Matt B.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> > 
________________________________________________________________
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:07:11 -0500*
Tom, you are correct. New soldiers posted to the Armoured regiment with 4
CMBG would be posted there directly after their recruit and basic crewman
training. Their initial employment would be as tank drivers or gunners,
depending on which Qualification Level 4 QL 4 course they had received
from the Armour School before being posted to the unit. And generally they
would spend their career with that regiment, although Armour Corps troops
tended to switch regiments and rebadge much more often than infantry.
And yes, the Fort Garry Horse are now a Reserve unit.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas A Bisping 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> Mike:
>      Thanks for your imput.  I served with the US Army in Germany from
> 1977 to 1980.  That is why I used the designation 4 CMBG.  Also, I
> thought it was the RCD‘s over there, because once at Grafenwohr, I met
> some Canadian Tankers, and they commented on my units title: "First
> Regiment Of Dragoons."  The First U.S. Cavalry  So I‘m guessing that
> new soldiers were posted directly to Germany if the were going to be
> joining one of the regiments serving there.  Also the Fort Garry Horse is
> a reserve unit now, isn‘t it?  Thanks again for helping educate this
> Yank.  Merry Christmas!! Tom Bisping
>
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:23 -0500 m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> writes:
> > I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused me to
> > revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages of
> > the Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John
> > Grodzinski LDSH:
> >
> > 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany from
> > 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, the
> > brigade name was:
> >     1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group
> >     1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp
> >     1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group
> >     1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
> >     1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde
> >
> > The Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
> >     1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD
> >     1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
> >     1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH
> >     1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH
> > RC
> >     1970-1987 - RCD
> >     1987-1993 - 8 CH
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > The Regimental Rogue
> > 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
--------------------------------------------------------
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:17:12 -0700*
Mike has answered half of the original question and I was hoping that an
elderly "zipperhead" would complete the answer in terms of promotions,
rotations, etc. regret, don‘t have the original message query at hand.
>From what I can recall being  told wasn‘t there myself:
Members of the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps pre ‘integration‘ pre 1970
era in the Regular Force were all on the same ‘seniority list‘ regardless
if they were a Strath or a Garry or in the "Crazy 8s" or whatever. It was
most common for a Trooper in one regiment to become, progressively, a
Corporal now Master Cpl in another regiment and a Sergeant in a third,
within the RCAC. When one regiment left NATO to return to Canada it was the
practice to leave quite a large number of members behind in W. Germany to
form the nucleus of the incoming regiment. Those with less than the two
years‘ overseas remained behind. Surely some others on this list who were
infy or arty in W.Germany in those days can confirm/correct me.
What one has to bear in mind is that in the Cdn and Brit system our armd
units are usually called "Regiments" and compare in size to a small 600?
infy battalion. Whereas in the infy we have "regiments" of several
battalions and that each infy battalion may and often is in different parts
of the world, whereas in the U.S. system an infy and/or armd "regiment" is
three battalions all in that same formation. That is, a U.S. "regiment" is
the same as a Cdn "brigade" Well, we actually have an expanded Brigade
called a Brigade Group, but that‘s getting off track. Pun intended.
An interesting thing is that, IIRC, the Fort Garry Horse had two units both
in the Regular Force at the same time, very, very, briefly correct me if I
am wrong before one of them was rebadged to LdSHRC. Made the naming
rather awkward. If a armd regiment has one unit in the Regular Force and
another in the Primary Reserve Militia then each is called a "component"
when referring to both units in the same breath, but the reserve unit also
carries a subsidiary designation in brackets such as "12th Regiment Blinde
du Canada Milice" which means Militia in English. The 12RBC has had had
a Regular Force component since 1968 but never served in Germany,oh almost
forgot, except late in WW2 as the 12th Armoured Regiment Three Rivers
Regiment.
Doubtless someones will now jump in to clarify any misconceptions I have
created. Please.
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas A Bisping 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> Mike:
>      Thanks for your imput.  I served with the US Army in Germany from
> 1977 to 1980.  That is why I used the designation 4 CMBG.  Also, I
> thought it was the RCD‘s over there, because once at Grafenwohr, I met
> some Canadian Tankers, and they commented on my units title: "First
> Regiment Of Dragoons."  The First U.S. Cavalry  So I‘m guessing that
> new soldiers were posted directly to Germany if the were going to be
> joining one of the regiments serving there.  Also the Fort Garry Horse is
> a reserve unit now, isn‘t it?  Thanks again for helping educate this
> Yank.  Merry Christmas!! Tom Bisping
>
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:23 -0500 m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> writes:
> > I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused me to
> > revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages of
> > the Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John
> > Grodzinski LDSH:
> >
> > 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany from
> > 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, the
> > brigade name was:
> >     1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group
> >     1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp
> >     1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group
> >     1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
> >     1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde
> >
> > The Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
> >     1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD
> >     1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
> >     1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH
> >     1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH
> > RC
> >     1970-1987 - RCD
> >     1987-1993 - 8 CH
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > The Regimental Rogue
> > 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 9:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> >
> >
> > > Hey tom,
> > >         I was just about to ‘correct‘ your spelling of armour, but
> > seeing as
> > > you‘ve taken it upon yourself to stray from the Queen‘s English, I
> > thought,
> > > ‘Why beat a dead horse‘!
> > >         Just kidding, buddy. I don‘t know as much as most members
> > on the
> > > list, so I have to poke shots where I can! :
> > >                 -Matt B.
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
>  http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:22:39 -0700*
Didn‘t receive Mike‘s second message until just after sending my message.
Short  Sweet as usual, Mike.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Oleary 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> Tom, you are correct. New soldiers posted to the Armoured regiment with 4
> CMBG would be posted there directly after their recruit and basic crewman
> training. Their initial employment would be as tank drivers or gunners,
> depending on which Qualification Level 4 QL 4 course they had received
> from the Armour School before being posted to the unit. And generally they
> would spend their career with that regiment, although Armour Corps troops
> tended to switch regiments and rebadge much more often than infantry.
>
> And yes, the Fort Garry Horse are now a Reserve unit.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas A Bisping 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 10:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
>
>
> > Mike:
> >      Thanks for your imput.  I served with the US Army in Germany from
> > 1977 to 1980.  That is why I used the designation 4 CMBG.  Also, I
> > thought it was the RCD‘s over there, because once at Grafenwohr, I met
> > some Canadian Tankers, and they commented on my units title: "First
> > Regiment Of Dragoons."  The First U.S. Cavalry  So I‘m guessing that
> > new soldiers were posted directly to Germany if the were going to be
> > joining one of the regiments serving there.  Also the Fort Garry Horse
is
> > a reserve unit now, isn‘t it?  Thanks again for helping educate this
> > Yank.  Merry Christmas!! Tom Bisping
> >
> > On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:23 -0500 m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike
Oleary
> > writes:
> > > I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused me to
> > > revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages of
> > > the Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John
> > > Grodzinski LDSH:
> > >
> > > 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany from
> > > 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, the
> > > brigade name was:
> > >     1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group
> > >     1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp
> > >     1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group
> > >     1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
> > >     1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde
> > >
> > > The Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
> > >     1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD
> > >     1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
> > >     1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH
> > >     1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH
> > > RC
> > >     1970-1987 - RCD
> > >     1987-1993 - 8 CH
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > The Regimental Rogue
> > > 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:46:36 -0700*
--------------BBD8F75C5EE4C257837EBCB5
Also add:
LdSH RC Recce Sqn 1957-59 as part of 4 CIBG Soest West Germany
Francois Arseneault
Calgary
Mike Oleary wrote:
> I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused me to
> revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages of the
> Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John
> Grodzinski LDSH: 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed
> in Germany from 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the
> sticklers, the brigade name was:    1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry
> Brigade Group    1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp    1970-1973
> - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group    1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
> 1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde The Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
> 1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD    1959-1962 - 8th Canadian
> Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH    1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse
> FGH    1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH
> RC    1970-1987 - RCD    1987-1993 - 8 CH   Mike The Regimental
> Rogue2001 Canadian Military History Calendar ----- Original Message
> -----From: To: Sent:
> Wednesday, December 20, 2000 9:08 PMSubject: Re: Armored Units In West
> Germany > Hey tom,
> >         I was just about to ‘correct‘ your spelling of armour, but
> seeing as
> > you‘ve taken it upon yourself to stray from the Queen‘s English, I
> thought,
> > ‘Why beat a dead horse‘!
> >         Just kidding, buddy. I don‘t know as much as most members on
> the
> > list, so I have to poke shots where I can! :
> >                 -Matt B.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
--------------BBD8F75C5EE4C257837EBCB5
Also add:
LdSH RC Recce Sqn 1957-59 as part of 4 CIBG Soest West Germany
Francois Arseneault
Calgary
Mike Oleary wrote:
I
deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused me to revisit
it. And I found the following information in "Lineages of the Canadian
Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John Grodzinski LDSH:4
Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany from 1957 to
its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, the brigade name
was: 1957-1968
- 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group
1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp
1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group
1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech BdeThe
Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD
1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH
1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH RC
1970-1987 - RCD
1987-1993 - 8 CHMikeThe
Regimental Rogue2001
Canadian Military History Calendar-----
Original Message -----From:
ltJuno847627709@aol.com>To:
ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.ca>Sent:
Wednesday, December 20, 2000 9:08 PMSubject:
Re: Armored Units In West Germany>
Hey tom,
>
I was just about to ‘correct‘ your spelling of armour, but seeing as
> you‘ve taken it upon yourself to
stray from the Queen‘s English, I thought,
> ‘Why beat a dead horse‘!
>
Just kidding, buddy. I don‘t know as much as most members on the
> list, so I have to poke shots where
I can! :
>
-Matt B.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from
this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca
from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe
army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------BBD8F75C5EE4C257837EBCB5--
--------------------------------------------------------
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remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *DHall058@aol.com* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:17:55 EST*
Tom,
Fellow Yank here, in USAREUR from 76-79, 8th ID @ Mannheim. Where were you 
stationed? Let me know off-list...I don‘t want to bore everyone with my Graf 
reminisces...
Dave Hall
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:39:40 -0500*
OK, I should have covered that. From the same reference here are the 
Recce units of 4 Bde:
    1957-1959 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH RC  
    1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH   
    1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH   
    1965-1970 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
    As far as I can tell from the tables in the reference, as of 1970, 
the Recce Squadron became integral to the brigade Armour regiment rather 
than as separate Brigade unit:

    1970-1987 - RCD   
    1987-1993 - 8 CH
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: F. A.
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
  Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 7:46 AM
  Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
  Also add:
  LdSH RC Recce Sqn 1957-59 as part of 4 CIBG Soest West Germany
  Francois Arseneault
  Calgary
  Mike Oleary wrote:
    I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused me to 
revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages of the 
Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John Grodzinski 
LDSH: 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany 
from 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, the 
brigade name was:    1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group    
1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp    1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle 
Group    1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp    1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde The 
Brigade‘s Armoured units were:    1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons 
RCD    1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH    
1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH    1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s 
Horse Royal Canadians LdSH RC    1970-1987 - RCD    1987-1993 - 8 
CH   Mike The Regimental Rogue2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
OK, I should have covered that. From 
the same
reference here are the Recce units of 4 Bde:
 1957-1959 - Lord 
Strathcona‘s
Horse Royal Canadians LdSH RC 
1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 
CH 
1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH 
1965-1970 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8
CH
As far as I can tell from the tables in the reference, as of 1970, the 
Recce
Squadron became integral to the brigade Armour regiment rather than as 
separate
Brigade unit:
1970-1987 - RCD
1987-1993 - 8 CH
Mike
The Regimental
Rogue
2001 
Canadian
Military History Calendar
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  F.
  A. 
  To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca 
  Sent: Thursday, December 21, 
2000 7:46
  AM
  Subject: Re: Armored Units In 
West
  Germany
  Also add:
  LdSH RC Recce Sqn 1957-59 as part of 4 CIBG Soest West Germany
  Francois Arseneault Calgary
  Mike Oleary wrote:


    I deleted the original message to 
this, but
    Matt‘s mail caused me to revisit it. And I found the following 
information
    in "Lineages of the Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled 
by Capt
    John Grodzinski LDSH:4
    Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany from 1957 
to its
    disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, the brigade name
    was:
    1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group 1968-1970 - 4 Cdn 
Mechanized Inf
    Bde Gp
    1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group 1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde 
Gp 1989-1993 - 4 Cdn 
Mech
    BdeThe 
Brigade‘s Armoured
    units were:
    1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD 1959-1962 - 8th 
Canadian Hussars
    Princess Louise 8 CH 1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse
    FGH
    1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH
    RC
    1970-1987 - RCD 1987-1993 - 8
    CHMikeThe Regimental
    Rogue2001 
Canadian
    Military History
Calendar
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Thomas A Bisping <tbisping1@Juno.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:41:41 -0600*
Mike:
     So now, that all Armored units are in Canada, does a young soldier
stay with the same regiment longer?
Also now that the Canadian unit in Germany is gone, did the Canadian Army
Trophy Tank Gunnery Match go as well?  It took a while, but the U.S.
finally won the thing in the late ‘80‘s, of course we had to invent the
M1 Abrams to do it!  Tom
On Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:07:11 -0500 m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
writes:
> Tom, you are correct. New soldiers posted to the Armoured regiment 
> with 4
> CMBG would be posted there directly after their recruit and basic 
> crewman
> training. Their initial employment would be as tank drivers or 
> gunners,
> depending on which Qualification Level 4 QL 4 course they had 
> received
> from the Armour School before being posted to the unit. And 
> generally they
> would spend their career with that regiment, although Armour Corps 
> troops
> tended to switch regiments and rebadge much more often than 
> infantry.
> 
> And yes, the Fort Garry Horse are now a Reserve unit.
> 
> Mike
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas A Bisping 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 10:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> 
> 
> > Mike:
> >      Thanks for your imput.  I served with the US Army in Germany 
> from
> > 1977 to 1980.  That is why I used the designation 4 CMBG.  Also, I
> > thought it was the RCD‘s over there, because once at Grafenwohr, I 
> met
> > some Canadian Tankers, and they commented on my units title: 
> "First
> > Regiment Of Dragoons."  The First U.S. Cavalry  So I‘m guessing 
> that
> > new soldiers were posted directly to Germany if the were going to 
> be
> > joining one of the regiments serving there.  Also the Fort Garry 
> Horse is
> > a reserve unit now, isn‘t it?  Thanks again for helping educate 
> this
> > Yank.  Merry Christmas!! Tom Bisping
> >
> > On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:23 -0500 m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike 
> Oleary
> > writes:
> > > I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused 
> me to
> > > revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages 
> of
> > > the Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John
> > > Grodzinski LDSH:
> > >
> > > 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany 
> from
> > > 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, 
> the
> > > brigade name was:
> > >     1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group
> > >     1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp
> > >     1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group
> > >     1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
> > >     1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde
> > >
> > > The Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
> > >     1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD
> > >     1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
> > >     1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH
> > >     1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH
> > > RC
> > >     1970-1987 - RCD
> > >     1987-1993 - 8 CH
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > The Regimental Rogue
> > > 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Thomas A Bisping <tbisping1@Juno.com>* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:35:55 -0600*
Ian:
     Thanks for your imput as well.  I knew the difference in structure,
again learned when dealing with troops of the different NATO nations. 
i.e. a U.S. platoon being a Canadian/Brit troop, etc.  Tom
On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:17:12 -0700 "Ian Edwards" 
writes:
> Mike has answered half of the original question and I was hoping that 
> an
> elderly "zipperhead" would complete the answer in terms of 
> promotions,
> rotations, etc. regret, don‘t have the original message query at 
> hand.
> From what I can recall being  told wasn‘t there myself:
> 
> Members of the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps pre ‘integration‘ pre 
> 1970
> era in the Regular Force were all on the same ‘seniority list‘ 
> regardless
> if they were a Strath or a Garry or in the "Crazy 8s" or whatever. 
> It was
> most common for a Trooper in one regiment to become, progressively, 
> a
> Corporal now Master Cpl in another regiment and a Sergeant in a 
> third,
> within the RCAC. When one regiment left NATO to return to Canada it 
> was the
> practice to leave quite a large number of members behind in W. 
> Germany to
> form the nucleus of the incoming regiment. Those with less than the 
> two
> years‘ overseas remained behind. Surely some others on this list who 
> were
> infy or arty in W.Germany in those days can confirm/correct me.
> 
> What one has to bear in mind is that in the Cdn and Brit system 
> our armd
> units are usually called "Regiments" and compare in size to a small 
> 600?
> infy battalion. Whereas in the infy we have "regiments" of several
> battalions and that each infy battalion may and often is in 
> different parts
> of the world, whereas in the U.S. system an infy and/or armd 
> "regiment" is
> three battalions all in that same formation. That is, a U.S. 
> "regiment" is
> the same as a Cdn "brigade" Well, we actually have an expanded 
> Brigade
> called a Brigade Group, but that‘s getting off track. Pun intended.
> 
> An interesting thing is that, IIRC, the Fort Garry Horse had two 
> units both
> in the Regular Force at the same time, very, very, briefly correct 
> me if I
> am wrong before one of them was rebadged to LdSHRC. Made the 
> naming
> rather awkward. If a armd regiment has one unit in the Regular Force 
> and
> another in the Primary Reserve Militia then each is called a 
> "component"
> when referring to both units in the same breath, but the reserve 
> unit also
> carries a subsidiary designation in brackets such as "12th Regiment 
> Blinde
> du Canada Milice" which means Militia in English. The 12RBC has 
> had had
> a Regular Force component since 1968 but never served in Germany,oh 
> almost
> forgot, except late in WW2 as the 12th Armoured Regiment Three 
> Rivers
> Regiment.
> 
> Doubtless someones will now jump in to clarify any misconceptions 
> I have
> created. Please.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas A Bisping 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 8:24 PM
> Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> 
> 
> > Mike:
> >      Thanks for your imput.  I served with the US Army in Germany 
> from
> > 1977 to 1980.  That is why I used the designation 4 CMBG.  Also, I
> > thought it was the RCD‘s over there, because once at Grafenwohr, I 
> met
> > some Canadian Tankers, and they commented on my units title: 
> "First
> > Regiment Of Dragoons."  The First U.S. Cavalry  So I‘m guessing 
> that
> > new soldiers were posted directly to Germany if the were going to 
> be
> > joining one of the regiments serving there.  Also the Fort Garry 
> Horse is
> > a reserve unit now, isn‘t it?  Thanks again for helping educate 
> this
> > Yank.  Merry Christmas!! Tom Bisping
> >
> > On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:23 -0500 m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike 
> Oleary
> > writes:
> > > I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused 
> me to
> > > revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages 
> of
> > > the Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John
> > > Grodzinski LDSH:
> > >
> > > 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany 
> from
> > > 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers, 
> the
> > > brigade name was:
> > >     1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group
> > >     1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp
> > >     1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group
> > >     1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
> > >     1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde
> > >
> > > The Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
> > >     1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD
> > >     1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
> > >     1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH
> > >     1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH
> > > RC
> > >     1970-1987 - RCD
> > >     1987-1993 - 8 CH
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > The Regimental Rogue
> > > 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 9:08 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey tom,
> > > >         I was just about to ‘correct‘ your spelling of armour, 
> but
> > > seeing as
> > > > you‘ve taken it upon yourself to stray from the Queen‘s 
> English, I
> > > thought,
> > > > ‘Why beat a dead horse‘!
> > > >         Just kidding, buddy. I don‘t know as much as most 
> members
> > > on the
> > > > list, so I have to poke shots where I can! :
> > > >                 -Matt B.
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
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> > Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 21 Dec 2000 15:45:58 -0500*
Movement between Armoured regiments is not unheard of, but normally a
soldier will be associated with one regiment for his entire career. I‘m not
sure of the current status of the CAT competition. I have had NCOs work for
me who were on winning CAT teams and they were very proud of the
accomplishment. Perhaps one of the zipperheads can help us on this.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas A Bisping 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> Mike:
>      So now, that all Armored units are in Canada, does a young soldier
> stay with the same regiment longer?
> Also now that the Canadian unit in Germany is gone, did the Canadian Army
> Trophy Tank Gunnery Match go as well?  It took a while, but the U.S.
> finally won the thing in the late ‘80‘s, of course we had to invent the
> M1 Abrams to do it!  Tom
>
> On Thu, 21 Dec 2000 00:07:11 -0500 m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> writes:
> > Tom, you are correct. New soldiers posted to the Armoured regiment
> > with 4
> > CMBG would be posted there directly after their recruit and basic
> > crewman
> > training. Their initial employment would be as tank drivers or
> > gunners,
> > depending on which Qualification Level 4 QL 4 course they had
> > received
> > from the Armour School before being posted to the unit. And
> > generally they
> > would spend their career with that regiment, although Armour Corps
> > troops
> > tended to switch regiments and rebadge much more often than
> > infantry.
> >
> > And yes, the Fort Garry Horse are now a Reserve unit.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Thomas A Bisping 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 10:24 PM
> > Subject: Re: Armored Units In West Germany
> >
> >
> > > Mike:
> > >      Thanks for your imput.  I served with the US Army in Germany
> > from
> > > 1977 to 1980.  That is why I used the designation 4 CMBG.  Also, I
> > > thought it was the RCD‘s over there, because once at Grafenwohr, I
> > met
> > > some Canadian Tankers, and they commented on my units title:
> > "First
> > > Regiment Of Dragoons."  The First U.S. Cavalry  So I‘m guessing
> > that
> > > new soldiers were posted directly to Germany if the were going to
> > be
> > > joining one of the regiments serving there.  Also the Fort Garry
> > Horse is
> > > a reserve unit now, isn‘t it?  Thanks again for helping educate
> > this
> > > Yank.  Merry Christmas!! Tom Bisping
> > >
> > > On Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:54:23 -0500 m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike
> > Oleary
> > > writes:
> > > > I deleted the original message to this, but Matt‘s mail caused
> > me to
> > > > revisit it. And I found the following information in "Lineages
> > of
> > > > the Canadian Regular Army 1946 - Present" compiled by Capt John
> > > > Grodzinski LDSH:
> > > >
> > > > 4 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group was stationed in Germany
> > from
> > > > 1957 to its disbandment in 1993. Actually for the sticklers,
> > the
> > > > brigade name was:
> > > >     1957-1968 - 4 Canadian Infantry Brigade Group
> > > >     1968-1970 - 4 Cdn Mechanized Inf Bde Gp
> > > >     1970-1973 - 4 Cdn Mech Battle Group
> > > >     1973-1989 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp
> > > >     1989-1993 - 4 Cdn Mech Bde
> > > >
> > > > The Brigade‘s Armoured units were:
> > > >     1957-1959 - Royal Canadian Dragoons RCD
> > > >     1959-1962 - 8th Canadian Hussars Princess Louise 8 CH
> > > >     1962-1965 - Fort Garry Horse FGH
> > > >     1965-1970 - Lord Strathcona‘s Horse Royal Canadians LdSH
> > > > RC
> > > >     1970-1987 - RCD
> > > >     1987-1993 - 8 CH
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > The Regimental Rogue
> > > > 2001 Canadian Military History Calendar
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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> Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
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