# Two x new kitchens, eating messes for CFB Borden



## The Bread Guy (12 Aug 2011)

> The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence, today announced plans to construct two new All Ranks Kitchen and Dining Facilities at Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Borden. In total, these projects are valued at approximately $77 million and involve the construction of two new 6,133 m2 facilities that will replace four kitchen facilities.
> 
> (....)
> 
> The construction of the two new single-story kitchen and dining facilities will replace both existing Junior Ranks dining halls, the Officers’ Mess, and Senior NCO Mess currently being used at CFB Borden by 3,000 military personnel daily. This project is part of the CFB Borden Master Real Property Development Plan which aims to consolidate all training and quarters functions into two separate areas. Each facility will be able to serve approximately 1,500 persons per meal, and will be located on the north and south sides of the base. These new buildings will address existing deficiencies found at the current facilities, some of which are over 50 years old ....


Source:  CF news release, 12 Aug 11 - Backgrounder here


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## The Bread Guy (12 Aug 2011)

And the first stories:  what's the CF spending big bucks on places to eat when the government is cutting?  Highlights mine....


> A new infrastructure announcement has *raised questions* about whether the government really is trimming the fat on spending.
> 
> Defence Minister Peter MacKay visited Canadian Forces Base Borden in Borden, Ont., on Friday where he announced a $77 million project to replace four kitchen facilities on the base — including the officers mess, the senior NCO mess and the junior ranks dining halls — with two 6,133 square-metre "all-ranks kitchen and dining facilities."
> 
> ...


Source:  Postmedia News, 12 Aug 11


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## Hurricane (12 Aug 2011)

Ok yes some are 50 years old. But they're shutting down the new one built right beside PRETC Shacks? I bet even with the new buildings, the wait time for lunch will still be insane!


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## GAP (13 Aug 2011)

Canadian Forces' $77M renovations 'outrageous'
Article Link

Tobi Cohen And Beatrice Fantoni, Postmedia News · Aug. 13, 2011 | Last Updated: Aug. 13, 2011 3:03 AM ET

A $77-million kitchen renovation on a Canadian Forces Base has raised questions about whether the government really is trimming the fat on spending.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay visited CFB Borden in Borden, Ont., on Friday to announced the project to replace four kitchen facilities on the base - including the officers mess, the senior NCO mess and the junior ranks dining halls - with two 6,133-squaremetre "all-ranks kitchen and dining facilities."

"These new buildings will help promote a greater sense of cohesion and camaraderie among the Canadian Forces personnel here at CFB Borden, as all members will be able to share a single location for their meals," Mr. MacKay said in a news release, noting the project will create 415 local jobs.

Critics called it a questionable expense, especially at a time when the government says it intends to cut expenditures.

"We do have to question how they're setting their priorities in terms of dealing with the deficit," NDP defence critic Jack Harris told Postmedia News.

"It seems - on the surface - an outrageous amount of money for dining facilities," Mr. Harris said.

The government recently announced the shutdown of two search-and-rescue co-ordinating centres, in Quebec City and St. John's, to save "probably a couple of million dollars a year" and yet it can find the cash to replace existing buildings, he added.

"Canadians are going to question the timing of this announcement," said Gregory Thomas of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. While the armed forces should have upto-date equipment and infrastructure, the country is running a $30-billion deficit and this type of spending will be difficult to justify to the public, Mr. Thomas said.

In contrast, the news was met with support from the Public Service Alliance of Canada.

"This is like a little shining light in the dark. It's nice for us to see that money is spent on (the Department of National Defence)," said Serge Desbiens, vice-president of the Union of National Defence Employees, which is part of PSAC.

Each dining facility will be able to serve about 1,500 people at a time. Of the existing four facilities, two will remain in use as mess facilities, according to details provided from CFB Borden.
More on link


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## vonGarvin (13 Aug 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> "These new buildings will help promote a greater sense of cohesion and camaraderie among the Canadian Forces personnel here at CFB Borden, *as all members will be able to share a single location for their  meals*," Mr. MacKay said in a news release, noting the project will create 415 local jobs.


As an officer, and as a former Jr. Rank, Jr. NCO and Sr. NCO, if I wanted to eat my meals with Ptes and Cpls, I would relinquish my commission.  There is a time and place for everything, and even the boss needs to be able to let his (or her) hair down.  Likewise, as a Jr Rank, I liked being able to "party hard" without my bosses seeing my shenanigans.


Yes, these are the dining halls, and not the "Messes" as such, but....


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## aesop081 (13 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> There is a time and place for everything, and even the boss needs to be able to let his (or her) hair down.



That's what the "drinking" messes are for.

I eat in dinning halls all the time with Privates all the way up to Colonels. The world has yet to end. In Greenwood, everyone drinks in the All-Ranks bar (there are also separate rooms that no one uses) and the world has yet to end there either.

I can understand the differences between Army and Air force cultures when it comes to the "drinking" mess but as far as eating is concerned, the benefits of a single facility are clear.


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## Jammer (13 Aug 2011)

Hence the dividers the say "Offr and SNCO only"


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## DCRabbit (13 Aug 2011)

Cool. The bigger messes were holes to work in.. in the 80s.


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## a_majoor (13 Aug 2011)

Sadly or not, mixed dining facilities are a fact of life thee days. I eat in Normandy Court, which is just as described; officers and NCO's are separated by a short wall from the remainder of the diners. Meaford has the same system in place, as does Wainwright. The DFACS in KAF were all ranks when I was there as well, so this isn't a Canadian "innovation", rather a response to being able to feed masses of people at a lower cost/meal with one big kitchen facility rather than several separate ones.

On a personal note, I actually had difficulty with the separate dining facility a few years back when I was in Gagetown teaching CAP. Without a car, it was literally impossible for me to march from the J lines to the A lines, eat lunch and return in the alloted time. The new (to me) D dining facility was much more conveiniently located for most meals, but of course the only time I could eat there was when acting as marching NCO....

The cost is quite steep, to be sure, but perhaps we need to see the costs of similar establishments (that cater to 1000+ people at mealtimes) to see if it is really out of line.


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## vonGarvin (13 Aug 2011)

Jammer said:
			
		

> Hence the dividers the say "Offr and SNCO only"


Where do the WOs eat then?
 >

(trollface, only because people commonly equate WOs with Sr. NCOs, which of course they aren't.  But I digress)


A central "facility" with three "wings" would, in my archaic view, be better.  But I stand by what I said earlier: if I wanted to dine with the Jr. Ranks or with the Sr NCOs and WOs, I wouldn't have taken my commission.


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## dapaterson (13 Aug 2011)

Reducing the number of facilities also reduces costs by consolidation.  Coupled with more modern buildings requiring less upkeep and less energy, this should save money in the long term.


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## vonGarvin (13 Aug 2011)

Hell, then let's just build one massive SuperBase, with one building for accomodations (all ranks), one building for administration (everything) and so on.  Think of the savings.  We'll have to have a runway on the roof to accomodate our Air Force, and it will need all year water access to accomodate our Navy, and of course, a patch of grass out back to accomodate our Army.


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## DCRabbit (13 Aug 2011)

I don't get something here. The article states these new 2 facilities are to the replace the 4 facilities already there. Okay.. two new bigger messes to replace 4.. consolidation is cheaper and all that. But then the article states that of the existing 4 facilites, 2 will remain as messes. So you still have 4.  Huh? What obvious thing am I missing here?


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## ballz (13 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hell, then let's just build one massive SuperBase, with one building for accomodations (all ranks), one building for administration (everything) and so on.  Think of the savings.  We'll have to have a runway on the roof to accomodate our Air Force, and it will need all year water access to accomodate our Navy, and of course, a patch of grass out back to accomodate our Army.



Don't get too smart about it, that's basically what they are doing with CFS St. John's right now 

I look forward to watching this debate unfold, I'm on the fence (about dining halls, not drinking messes).


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## Cansky (13 Aug 2011)

DCRabbit said:
			
		

> I don't get something here. The article states these new 2 facilities are to the replace the 4 facilities already there. Okay.. two new bigger messes to replace 4.. consolidation is cheaper and all that. But then the article states that of the existing 4 facilites, 2 will remain as messes. So you still have 4.  Huh? What obvious thing am I missing here?



Currently yes there are 4 dining messes here.  2 mess hall, and dining facilities attached to the Senior NCO mess and Officers Mess.   The Senior NCO mess is no longer used as a dining facility as they joined the officers mess for meals only.  The  officers dining mess will close when the 2 new facilities are completed but the 3 drinking messes will remain open.


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Aug 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Don't get too smart about it, that's basically what they are doing with CFS St. John's right now
> 
> I look forward to watching this debate unfold, I'm on the fence (about dining halls, not drinking messes).



Dining hall has been like that for the last 12 years and longer....


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## The Bread Guy (13 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> As an officer, and as a former Jr. Rank, Jr. NCO and Sr. NCO, if I wanted to eat my meals with Ptes and Cpls, I would relinquish my commission.  There is a time and place for everything, and even the boss needs to be able to let his (or her) hair down.  Likewise, as a Jr Rank, I liked being able to "party hard" without my bosses seeing my shenanigans.


Could the term "single location" mean "same building, different areas"?


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## Container (13 Aug 2011)

I think TV is concerned thius will affect the amount of cake he gets to eat!  ;D

The last time I was in Borden was about ten years ago- but the Junior Ranks dining hall and the mess were crapholes. If they havent been upgraded since then they probably should be.


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## Tow Tripod (13 Aug 2011)

Would this single location be like Wainwright when WATC is running 11 courses and the line up goes outside the DFAC itself? Totally inefficient for Instructors and people  on IR. For the first time in my career I just cut to the front of the line because I will not wait 45 minutes in line with my candidates and I'm not interested in keeping Subway in business in downtown Wainwright. By the way the world didn't either because of my actions!


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## Old Sweat (13 Aug 2011)

I wondered about wait times and feeding large numbers when I first read this. Without seeing the specs, all we can do is speculate, but surely there would be several meal lines and perhaps staggered hours for different organizations. You still need to put people past a point, say where they enter the serving area, and then headed for a seat at a fairly good rate. Breakfast and lunch, it seems to me, will be the critical meals because of parade timings.

Can someone with some experience here join in?


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## Tow Tripod (13 Aug 2011)

Bad typo. The world didn't end because of my actions is what I wanted to say! Sorry!


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## Teeps74 (13 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Where do the WOs eat then?
> >



The fear of the weak is sustenance enough for us.


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## ballz (14 Aug 2011)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Dining hall has been like that for the last 12 years and longer....



I wasn't talking about the dining hall. I am talking about the entire (well most of it at least) CFS St. John's being thrown into one building.



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hell, then let's just build *one massive SuperBase,* with one building for accomodations (all ranks), one building for administration (everything) and so on.  Think of the savings.  We'll have to have a runway on the roof to accomodate our Air Force, and it will need all year water access to accomodate our Navy, and of course, a patch of grass out back to accomodate our Army.


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## aesop081 (14 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hell, then let's just build one massive SuperBase,



I'm sorry you felt the need to throw your icecream on the floor and stomp your feet.

I've been to a few bases with combined dinning facilities and the world there has not ended (even in the one with no rank-based seperate areas). I have been to bases where the drinking mess was combined and the world still did not end.

I suspect that the world will not end in Borden either.

TV, i'm sorry but i have to wonder why you went the officer route......it's just food.


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## vonGarvin (14 Aug 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I'm sorry you felt the need to throw your icecream on the floor and stomp your feet.
> 
> I've been to a few bases with combined dinning facilities and the world there has not ended (even in the one with no rank-based seperate areas). I have been to bases where the drinking mess was combined and the world still did not end.
> 
> ...


To begin with, I haven't thrown my icecream, teddy bear or other "children's toys" in the corner, because I'm not a child throwing a tantrum.  But there is a reason why the three messes are separated.  "Cohesion" between the messes isn't a problem that needs to be rectified.  But even if it's "just food", I go back to the four "F's" of leadership, as learned way back in the 20th Century on my Infantry Section Commander's Course:
Firm
Fair
Friendly
but never Familiar.  
Dining in the same mess hall, separated by dividers or not, allows for a certain sense of "familiarity".  It may be "just food" for you, I also use my time dining (when I have to eat at the mess) to talk shop, to socialise and so forth, much more than just injest calories, nutrients, etc.

Now, I'm not trying to say that I as an officer wish to be separated from "the great unwashed".  Not at all.  But there is a time and place for everything.  And if I can't sit down to a meal without having to worry about whether or not my subordinates are critiquing how I eat, or if they are in earshot, preventing me from discussing certain things, or even just to relax, well, there's a problem, IMPO.  
And as a Jr. Rank, way back when, I know for a fact that I didn't have to worry about my superiors watching me, eating or otherwise.

Now, on a personal note, I don't have to justify to you why I went the officer route.  If you feel that I'm being an elitist, a snob, or a classist, please come forth and state so in the open.  I have done "okay" as an officer, and I'm not about to explain my reasons.

EDITED to fix grammar, spelling, etc.


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## aesop081 (14 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Firm
> Fair
> Friendly
> but never Familiar.



Thank you for the leadership lesson, i will go turn in my crowns forthwith.




> I also use my time dining (when I have to eat at the mess) to talk shop, to socialise and so forth, much more than just injest calories, nutrients, etc.



My time in dining halls is spent no different.



> preventing me from discussing certain things,



Then those things probably should be discussed elsewhere in the first place.


Now, how did we ever manage to lead throughout OP MOBILE.......i lived in a 3-bedroom apartment with 5 other people, 2 of which were Captains. I did not only eat with them, we cooked our meals together and did the grocery shopping together. We still managed to know who is boss and still managed to fight the war.



> I don't have to justify to you why I went the officer route.



Nor do i want you to. In the end i couldn't care less. But you did make a big deal about eating with other ranks and your co mission. I wondered but i did not ask you for an answer.


...And yes, i understand the differences between the cultures of the various elements. Even the Army has managed to have combined dining facilities elsewhere.


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## vonGarvin (14 Aug 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Nor do i want you to. In the end i couldn't care less.



Apparently you do care.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> TV, i'm sorry but i have to wonder why you went the officer route......it's just food.




You love me, you really love me  

But, in all seriousness, dogs won't be living with cats, north won't go to the bottom of the map, and the sun will still rise, I get that.  It's my opinion, that's all.


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## aesop081 (14 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> You love me, you really love me



It's hard not too, even if you are being elitist, a snob and a clasist.

 ;D


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## a_majoor (15 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hell, then let's just build one massive SuperBase, with one building for accomodations (all ranks), one building for administration (everything) and so on.  Think of the savings.  We'll have to have a runway on the roof to accomodate our Air Force, and it will need all year water access to accomodate our Navy, and of course, a patch of grass out back to accomodate our Army.



So you _have_ been to CFLRS St Jean recently. The airfield is right next door, and there are very few separate structures but otherwise as you described....


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## vonGarvin (15 Aug 2011)

I was thinking of making one giant aircraft carrier, on wheels.   >


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## aesop081 (15 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I was thinking of making one giant aircraft carrier, on wheels.   >



As long as it spews death, i'm ok with that !


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## vonGarvin (15 Aug 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> As long as it spews death, i'm ok with that !


It floats,it rolls on land, it has planes on top, and we can line the decks with Leopards!  WIN!


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## aesop081 (15 Aug 2011)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> It floats,it rolls on land, it has planes on top, and we can line the decks with Leopards!  WIN!



But it all spews death, right ?

It doesn't work without spewing death !


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## vonGarvin (15 Aug 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> But it all spews death, right ?
> 
> It doesn't work without spewing death !


Oh, it will spew death.  FTW!


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