# The Erosion of Etiquette?



## Deleted member 585 (25 May 2004)

While eating supper at the all-ranks mess, a man in civilian attire entered and walked to the centre of the dining hall.  He swayed to and fro and paced hither and thither as he continued his cell phone call which was in progress as he arrived.  I suspended my appetite while watching for a further five minutes until he was finished.  I scanned the room during this time to see if anyone else was audience to this oddity -- apparently no one was watching, especially not the guy wearing the mid-leg nylon swim trunks and sandals, with his elbows mounted bipod-like on either side of his plate with fork and knife connecting in the middle as a sort of food-bridge to his ever-open maw.

I wanted to ask him to "take it outside", but I didn‘t.  I simply sat and watched, feeling my sense of mess etiquette being offended with every passing second.

Some might think me conservative, but I‘ll argue that it‘s a matter of respect to stow the gadgets at meal-time.  It starts with sandals and cell-phones in the mess... next it‘s addressing your CO with "Hey, man", and installing CD players in SMP vehicles.

I allude to the bigger picture which is the erosion of traditions perpetuated by the application of a perverted notion of "human rights".  Take the more poignant bits of my claptrap with a grain of salt, but consider the question seriously if you will.

If you were in a position to effect change (or not), with respect to indulging the whims of service members, what would you do?


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## Slim (25 May 2004)

Wow...Things sure have changed. I don‘t think for the better. It sounds like people are treating the messhall as a sort of restaurant rather than the queen‘s eating establishment.

Is there no longer a duty Cpl/Sgt to sort these offenders out?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 May 2004)

Every year for a while I have done my ICIT training at Bordon or Meaford and I can‘t say that I noticed any change from when I was in.
And there were duty NCO‘s.


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## Jarnhamar (25 May 2004)

I‘ve noticed lately people tend to get out of hand in the eating mess. I hate to admit it but most of what i‘ve seen is from the reserves. you go in and wait in line for food and two old friends see each other that they havne‘t seen in a few months and it‘s like the end of the world. 

How the **** are you i havent seen your stupid ****ing *** in ages what the **** have you been up to.

When you sit down it‘s the same thing. People telling stories, shouting to be heard, making what they think are clever comments towards whatever is on tv. Every second word is the F word. In a drinking mess its one thing, theres children, guys wifes and civilian contractors etc.. in the kitchen too. I don‘t have an opinion about the dress code, i find them a little annoying at times but i‘d say behavior etiquette needs some work.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 May 2004)

Profanity is the inability of a feeble mind to fully express itself.


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## Michael Dorosh (26 May 2004)

I‘ve seen Sergeants at the armoury talking on cell phones on the **** parade square. It‘s too sad for words, really.


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## willy (26 May 2004)

The way I understand it, the prohibition of sandals in dining rooms has always been based on a "hygiene" issue.  I don‘t think that‘s really reasonable.  Unless I‘m putting my feet in other people‘s food, why does it matter if I‘m wearing sandals without socks?  

While I agree that a certain amount of decorum is always desireable, I think it‘s a little bit incongrous to expect people to put on a dinner jacket and tie just for the privilege of bellying up to the steam line at the mess.  We aren‘t talking fine dining here.  Frankly, unless a guy is wearing dirty, tattered clothing, or clothing printed with obscene graphics or slogans, I don‘t see a huge problem.

I guess the question is just one of where you draw the line.  I agree with the tone of the original post in that some of the things I‘ve seen lately are taking things too far, but on the other hand, some of the more outmoded rules need to be changed.


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## Michael Dorosh (26 May 2004)

> Originally posted by willy:
> [qb] The way I understand it, the prohibition of sandals in dining rooms has always been based on a "hygiene" issue.  I don‘t think that‘s really reasonable.  Unless I‘m putting my feet in other people‘s food, why does it matter if I‘m wearing sandals without socks?   [/qb]


Because no one want to smell your feet, perhaps, buttercup?


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## willy (26 May 2004)

And you haven‘t ever smelled anyone‘s feet when they were wearing something other than sandals?

The issue is with people not taking proper hygiene measures for themselves, not their choice of footwear.


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## Marauder (26 May 2004)

Using common curtousy towards fellow diners in an eating establishment is one thing.

Wanting to live in the past using Victorian-era ideals is quite another.

While the mess may in some outdated way "belong to the Queen", that doesn‘t mean we should have to act like she‘s going to show up to dine there every night. Come on in to the 21st century, people.


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## Slim (26 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Marauder:
> [qb]
> While the mess may in some outdated way "belong to the Queen", that doesn‘t mean we should have to act like she‘s going to show up to dine there every night. Come on in to the 21st century, people. [/qb]


One of the things that defines us as a race is history and tradition. We do an awful lot to maintain these "codes of conduct" in order to be able to co-exist with one another without having to use force or violence (which was why manners were invented in the first place).

A military mess in times past was not just a place for you to come in and carry on like its you favourite (or closest) restaurant. There is alot of ceremony and history accociated with a military mess (not only the drinking one either).

If mess etiquette is not being followed its because it‘s probably not being taught and/or enforced. The dresscode in my time was not a dinner jacket but good pants (not jeans) and a collered shirt (golf shirts were o.k.). I don‘t see that as unreasonalble at all?

Slim


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## ZipperHead (26 May 2004)

In most messhalls, if the Base Chief Warrant Officer comes in and sees someone out of dress (ie muscle shirt and sandals) two people get a reaming: the perpetrator and the duty NCO. The dirt bag for being a dirt bag, and the duty NCO for allowing the dirt bag in. If people are unwilling to do their DUTY, it is time to replace them with someone who will.

As Slim said, it really isn‘t too much to ask to have people show up in respectable clothes to dine. If you allow that to slide, people take advantage of it and show up wearing shower sandals and dirty PT gear. For those of you that don‘t like the standards, Release Section would be happy to process your paperwork (but please be properly turned out....)

Speaking of that... It used to be, you would clear in and out of Base in DEU (full dress uniform), and then it went to dress of the day (usually combats), and then civilians. Some people took advantage of this, and decided to show up in what they would wear to the beach.

Al


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## MJP (26 May 2004)

I agree with Marauder on this one.  

People pay a ridiculous amount of money a month to eat at the mess(depending on the program they choose).  When I was a troop I use to hate putting on socks just to go eat at the mess hall when I was wearing sandals.  It was a silly policy then, and I think that it‘s still a silly policy now. As Willy said I don‘t stick my feet into the food.  

 As for clothes, as long as it‘s not ripped, and isn‘t obscene or dirty...go ahead and eat.  I never went in sweaty PT gear or knew anyone that did. For heavens sake most people‘s combats are dirtier than their civvies clothes and I don‘t see the DUTY NCO sending anyone packing at lunch time when people show up with slightly dirty combats(heaven forbid you deprive some fat body from his donair .

That being said certain things are common courtesy(or not so common courtesy) ANYWHERE you eat. 
-No rude smells of any kind
-No cell phones(I want to rip them out of peoples hands and throw them).
-No loud conversations for the entire time you are seated!

Maybe those that can‘t adapt to change should slide on by the release section and check it out


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## Armymedic (26 May 2004)

Oh how I wanna wade in on this but I‘ll leave it to one simple thought:

There is no good reason (medical, hygiene, etc) for pers to not be allowed to wear sport or dress sandals (not shower flip flop like the Canex sells for $0.99) in our eating establishments.


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## 48Highlander (26 May 2004)

Yes, let‘s release people because they talk too loud in the mess.  Great idea.


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## muskrat89 (26 May 2004)

I think people should dress/wear/act however they want in the Mess. As long as it doesn‘t affect me... To think otherwise would be intolerant and narrow-minded. Many of these rules are archaic and outdated. In lots of other cultures in the world, they eat in bare feet, use their fingers, etc. We need to adapt our policies, so they grow with the new world out there..  I have known many people with absolutely wretched table manners - but to them, it was just a different way of doing things. They were fine people, otherwise - and eating to them was feeding their bodies - nothing more ritualistic than that...

Sorry - couldn‘t resist


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## Infanteer (26 May 2004)

Since were on the topic of the mess, I will add something about the food.  When I was in Wainwright or Edmonton, the food was generally very good and the cooks pretty on the ball.  

My only complaint was about the amount of deserts and bad foods (ie French Fries, hotdogs, and other things of no nutritional value).  I‘m no health nazi but shouldn‘t we keep a tight ship in the crap food department considering the problems our military has with overweight soldiers.


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## dannybou (27 May 2004)

I must admit in reading these replies that things have changed greatly since my time in the military (1980 to 1984). I won‘t reply to this thread as I am only starting to get involved in the discussions but I must just say that I am disappointed with some of the comments. Regards to all.


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## Infanteer (27 May 2004)

Well, care to back that statement with a reason, or are you just going to call us all poopie-heads and then walk away?


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## Gryphon (27 May 2004)

alright... i find that as soldier‘s we have a responsability to 
a) hold up tradition [never mess with tradition.. it‘s sacred]
b) have a higher level of standards then the general population. I‘m sorry, but while eating, i dont‘ want to smell your feet, or see them. it‘s not the place. You‘re going there to eat, not to relax. I have no problem with sandels in the wet mess.. that‘s the place to relax and screw around. That‘s your place (be it JR‘s, SNCOs or officer‘s) to drink, to relax, and to have fun.. wear what you want there (to a certain level).

as with the noise level, no one wants to hear what you and jane doe did last night... keep it for the shacks or something. and keep it to a normal tone.. yeah, bursting out laughing is normal.. you can‘t control that, but you don‘t have to yell at the top of your lungs.


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## 48Highlander (27 May 2004)

If, as Soldiers, we were never allowed to "mess with tradition", my regiment would still be wearing the kilt in battle.


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## dannybou (27 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Infanteer:
> [qb] Well, care to back that statement with a reason, or are you just going to call us all poopie-heads and then walk away? [/qb]


I don‘t believe I called anybody anything. Do you feel targeted by what I said? That‘s a shame, because it wasn‘t my intention at all. I am not interested whatsoever to get into a back and forth about this subject. I believe in what I believe and tradition has and should still have it‘s place in the mess halls and in the military as a whole. In my opinion there should still be a mess dress code. Mess halls are not restaurants. Restaurants are for civilians. The military is prouder than that isn‘t it?


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## Michael Dorosh (27 May 2004)

> Originally posted by 48Highlander:
> [qb] If, as Soldiers, we were never allowed to "mess with tradition", my regiment would still be wearing the kilt in battle. [/qb]


You say it as if the 48th are the only Highland Regiment in Canada.

Heh, Art Johnson posted pics of full dress on my message board; it showed the 48th wearing, of all things, scarlet tunics and feather bonnets on parade...when exactly was it you say you "messed with tradition"   

It‘s a bit of a strawman, anyway. Traditions are based on reasons, and I don‘t want to look at some jackass‘ ugly, hairy, sweaty feet anymore than I want people coming in to our orderly room dressed like a retard in a backwards baseball hat, baggy pants and goatee.  

I think the underlying theme here is professionalism - putting the unit, and/or the mission first and before yourself. It‘s why we wear uniforms in the first place and why, as has been rightly pointed out, we should hold ourselves to higher standards when off duty as well.

Which still doesn‘t explain the "off duty" uniform of regimental PT sweats and fanny packs for regular force personnel at the mall or in line at the bank, but I won‘t open that can of worms again because I‘ll surely lose that argument (again)


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## Armymedic (27 May 2004)

OK, lets STAT this one, unless someone has something worthwhile to imput, 

instead of oh yeah....yeah, no you yeah...

How about a comment on how society in general has let the morale fiber and equiette as a whole soften. As a budding teenager, my mother gave me a book of manners and etiquette to me after I asked my parents how I go about asking a girl to dance...

Fortunately that information has helped me greatly and even had the effect of impressing my wife when I fisrt asked her to dance with me way back when.

I feel that this is reflective of a lack of respect towards others that is permeating our society dispite the fact we Canadians are supposed to be more polite and understanding...

And yes, as members of the CF, we should hold and maintain a higher standard of conduct then others especially when occupying space in our enviroment (ie mess hall, Canex, etc). 

Sort of like rugby...be the gentleman who play like hooligans when the time comes.


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## dannybou (27 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Armymedic:
> [qb] OK, lets STAT this one, unless someone has something worthwhile to imput,
> 
> instead of oh yeah....yeah, no you yeah...
> ...


Yes!!!! That‘s exactly what it‘s all about. Professionalism, self respect and above all, the brotherhood. There is still a brotherhood right...


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## Slim (27 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Armymedic:
> [qb] And as members of the CF, we should hold and maintain a higher standard of conduct then others especially when occupying space in our enviroment (ie mess hall, Canex, etc).
> 
> Sort of like rugby...be the gentleman who play like hooligans when the time comes. [/qb]


Very well stated, and exactly what I was trying to get across.

Thank you.

Slim


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## dannybou (27 May 2004)

Tradition? The military is entirely based on tradition. There is tradition and honour in the Regiments. We shouldn‘t be discussing the dress codes insides a mess hall but in the esprit de corps of the army, we should be discussing which regiment is the best, which platoon is the best, which squad is the best, not trivial stuff like this. Tradition goes back to hundreds of years. From the War of 1812 through the Fenian Raids, the Metis uprising, the Boer War, WW1, WW2, Korea, CYprus, Croatia. When you join up, are the recruits being instructed in their Regiments history? The Canadian battles of Vimy, Paascheandale, Mons? The PPCLI and RCR at the Gully and Ortona? The R22R at Casa Berardi? The PPCLI in Korea? The PPCLI at Medak? The CAR in Cyprus? You should all be proud of your Regiments Battle Honours, of your grandfathers, great-grandfathers who served and died for the same Regiments you are now serving in. That is the Army, that is tradition. 
Don‘t worry about the dress code in a mess hall! You‘re in the Army!


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## ZipperHead (27 May 2004)

What I love about this forum (and life in general), is how people take a comment directed at one thing, and apply it to another (ie. how I said that if you don‘t like the standards in the CF (dress in the mess hall) get the **** out, and then make it sound like I stated that if you talk loud, you should be released). I‘m used to stunned-assed people, as I work around them everyday, so I guess I shouldn‘t be surprised that I encounter them here.

As for the mess hall issue, I don‘t eat in one now, unless I‘m on course or duty, but I am still surprised at how often people have to be told what is considered acceptable dress. In Gagetown they have (or had the last time I was in there) a photo in the BFK (Big F‘in Kitchen) of what is acceptable dress, and what isn‘t. I suppose for those that can‘t read...... As somebody pointed out, it isn‘t a restaurant, and whether people know it or not, the standard has "relaxed" quite a bit over the years to accomodate change. In most messhalls, you can wear PT (clean) gear to accomodate pers who like to eat before going to PT, and now you don‘t have to wear a shirt with a collar, as you used to. So there are changes to accomodate real needs, not just the need to be able to be a slob and/or lazy. Wait until you reach the lofty reaches of the Sergeant‘s and WO‘s Mess, and have to wear collared shirts and slacks, jacket and tie for functions, etc. ***** away, and your bitching will fall on deaf ears....

If you don‘t like it, write a sensible memo to the Base Chief or the KO (Kitchen Officer) and see what can be done to change what you perceive to be wrong. Bitching about it to your buddies accomplishes little. Don‘t let a little work put you off.

And remember this: you conform to the will of the Army, not the other way around. Don‘t act all surprised that you are expected to be a certain way once you serve, and expect the Army to bend to your expectations. No wait, that has already happened, and look where that has gotten us......

Al


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## Jarnhamar (28 May 2004)

"I‘m used to stunned-assed people, as I work around them everyday, so I guess I shouldn‘t be surprised that I encounter them here"

Bad message forum etiquette


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## Spr.Earl (29 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Slim:
> [qb] Wow...Things sure have changed. I don‘t think for the better. It sounds like people are treating the messhall as a sort of restaurant rather than the queen‘s eating establishment.
> 
> Is there no longer a duty Cpl/Sgt to sort these offenders out? [/qb]


Slim back in 76 when I joined it was the beginning of Jeans being allowed in the Mess Hall but still had to wear a Shirt with a collar and no runners !

I‘m not a fuddy duddy but Hey!


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## Art Johnson (29 May 2004)

I‘ll say WOW, when I was a young Sergeant in the late 40‘s you wore full uniform or Blazer and flannels with Regimental tie. I remember in Petawawa "Big Jim" Goodrich of 1 RCR wouldn‘t even allow we Highlanders into his mess. Even the guys he knew from the Italian Campaign.


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## Infanteer (29 May 2004)

Just curious Mr Johnson; back when you were in, was eating in the mess free, or did a soldier have it deducted off his pay?


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## Spr.Earl (29 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Art Johnson:
> [qb] I‘ll say WOW, when I was a young Sergeant in the late 40‘s you wore full uniform or Blazer and flannels with Regimental tie. I remember in Petawawa "Big Jim" Goodrich of 1 RCR wouldn‘t even allow we Highlanders into his mess. Even the guys he knew from the Italian Campaign. [/qb]


Art,I‘m among the few on this means who know of the old Traditions and standards that were.


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## Spr.Earl (29 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Art Johnson:
> [qb] I‘ll say WOW, when I was a young Sergeant in the late 40‘s you wore full uniform or Blazer and flannels with Regimental tie. I remember in Petawawa "Big Jim" Goodrich of 1 RCR wouldn‘t even allow we Highlanders into his mess. Even the guys he knew from the Italian Campaign. [/qb]


Art,
I‘m among the few on this means who know of the old Traditions and standards that were.
I remember when you could not go into the rank‘s in the Wack with jeans or a T-Shirt.(76/77)
Must be slack‘s with a proper shirt.


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## Art Johnson (29 May 2004)

Infanteer, you paid a monthly Mess Fee regardless whether you were living in or out. In my experience we only ate in the mess on special occaisions.


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## Infanteer (29 May 2004)

Ok, I‘m a little confused now.  Are we talking about dress standards in the Mess, as in the bar/club that Junior Ranks, SNCO‘s and Officers go to or are we talking about the chow hall, also commonly referred to as the mess and seperated by ranks on some bases.

I think we are getting two different buildings (and two different standards) crossed here.


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## Art Johnson (29 May 2004)

Infanteer, you are probably right and we are talking about different eras also. The club as you called it was usually refered to as the Mess Parlour and if there was a seperate dining facility it was called the Dining Room (imagine that). Even so I don‘t recall anyone being allowed to enter either area dressed in coveralls which was quite often our training dress. At the time I speak of we had battledress which was introduced to the British Army in 1937 to be both a walking out and a training uniform. It wasn‘t introduced to the Canadian Army till 1939 and was replaced sometime in the 70s I believe.
Attitudes have changed over the last 50 years and society seems to be more laid back and relaxed so I guess the army has moved with the times. I have not had a suit on since I retired, I have ties in my closet that are older than my grandchildren. The only time I wear them is to go to a wedding or a funeral most of the time I‘m dressed in slacks, jeans or cords and a sports shirt or sweater, they are more comfortable.


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## Old Cent Hand (29 May 2004)

Dress standarts ,  most messes, and dining rooms allow jeans ( in good condition), and a shirt with a collar. If you wear sandles , you must wear socks.The bottom line is common sense, and dress in a tasteful manner. On special occasions , such as a " Meet and Great", which are not as formal as a mess dinner , dress is nomally , slacks , and shirt , sometime this may include a tie , and sports jacket.Overal dress standards , tend to vary from base to base, mess to mess.


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## Mike Bobbitt (1 Jun 2004)

For the record, here are the results recovered from the old poll:

How do you feel about lax dress and deportment?

Keep it up 	5% (3) 	 
Cut it out 	88% (56) 	 
Ignore it 	8% (5)


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## RCA (1 Jun 2004)

Lets not confuse the two. Now a  days, there is a difference between a mess and a dining hall. Officers and NCO Messes have dress standards.  Dining hall and JR have looser standards but still have standards. 

  For those who feel  that the standards are archaic and should be loosen up are slowly but surely strangling the heritage and tradition out of the Army because it doesn't suit their particular life style. We are in the Army, and as such are professionals. Part of that is taking a little time before heading to supper, by ensuring you don't look like or dress like a slobs before leaving the barracks. and this includes sandals.


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## Deleted member 585 (1 Jun 2004)

I couldn't agree more, RCA.

The Sr NCO dining hall here serves all ranks -- even the Base Commander eats lunch there occasionally on Fridays.  Since there is no duty NCO present, service members must police themselves.  (Draw your own conclusions).


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## Sailing Instructor (27 Sep 2004)

As a man who's greatly interested in (proper) clothes, I've noticed that there is a general 'decline' (of course I am being subjective here, but I think you all know what I mean) in, at least North American, dress standards.  Only eighty-odd years ago, there was not anything as vulgar as even black tie--only tailcoats were worn to dinner at home.  And now we wear a t-shirt and some trousers which were fit for labour eighty years ago.  The military seems to only be following the rest of the world in its style.

But you must realise that the now-almightly tailcoat which is the most formal garment a man can wear (after 1800h) was only fit for daytime riding fewer than 200 years ago and would never have been worn to dinner.  So one must accept that there seems to be a sort of 'evolution' of clothing throughout history and no matter how important tradition is, there _will_ be changes.

Nonetheless, I must say I'd like to see mess dress and ceremonial dress make a comeback into the daily lives of us sailors, soldiers, and airmen.  If we can't rely on civvies to choose to dress themselves well, we can sure rely on the serjeants-major to _make_ us dress well!

A caveat, however, what does one do about personnel in harried circumstances such as we who are basically-training and don't have the time to change into mess-dress (let alone own it!).  Should there be a separate dining room for those who are in combats and the like, or what?


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## pbi (27 Sep 2004)

Having been both a Battalion Adjutant and the PMC of the Home Station Mess (when there still was such a thing...) I have had some dealings with the issue of proper dress in the Mess. Having lived the first six months of my present posting in the officer shack at Kapyong, and having taken my meals in the Combined Mess, I have some familiarity with dress in dining facilities.

First of all, I think we are being rather myopic to think that common daily practices in the military never change, or that if they change this will somehow bring about THE END OF THE ARMY AS WE KNOW IT. Rubbish. Let me illustrate.

When I joined 3 PPCLI as a new subbie in 1983, we were forbidden to bring women into the bar area of the Mess. Forbidden, plain and simple. I let my wife into the bar once during a mixed dining-in to use the phone to call home in an emergency and was taken aside afterwards by the Senior Sub and admonished never to do it again. This silly practice was solemnly described as "tradition". Needless to say, it has not survived. As well, we were required to "dress up" for every evening meal, usually in jacket and tie. We were not to wear uniform of the day unless we were the BOO or had night training. This "tradition" IMHO reflected a legacy of the lifestyle of the upper-class Victorian gentlemen who made up the Officer Corps from which we inherited many of our attitudes and traditions. Tangentially, this included a mindset that was, IMHO, anti-professional in the extreme and regarded social prowess as being at least as important as any demonstration of military knowledge or skill. This practice has also faded away, and I do not miss it.

My point then, is that common daily practices in the military are constantly evolving and changing, as are tactics, policies, equipmen and everything else about our profession. In the midst of all this change, we do well to hold onto certain important anchors such as respect for military history especially examples of bravery and sacrifice, respect for and practice of military virtues such as loyalty, honour and personal courage, and adherence to a commonly understood code of ethical professional behaviour. At the same time, we waste our time and energy worrying about why nobody wears flannels to supper anymore. Well, we don't wear a Sam Browne to the office either, we don't force soldiers to be Mess servants, and we officers don't have batmen anymore. Change happens, all the time.

Are we worse off   because we let a soldier wear a clean T-shirt and jeans to eat his supper? IMHO, probably not. I submit that the old Canadian Army that fixated so much on these issues was a far less operationally focused, far less ethical, and generally less professional Army than we are today. Now, before I am assaulted by the flannel-wavers, look up professionalism as we currently define it in our Army. (Chapter 1, page 6, Duty With Honour). Having served 30 years in this Army of ours, I submit that we are far closer today to meeting that definition than we ever were back in the days of RSMs measuring trouser cuff lengths at the barrack gate. Fire away. Cheers.


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## PPCLI Guy (28 Sep 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> Are we worse off   because we let a soldier wear a clean T-shirt and jeans to eat his supper? IMHO, probably not. I submit that the old Canadian Army that fixated so much on these issues was a far less operationally focused, far less ethical, and generally less professional Army than we are today.



Bravo! Extremely well said.



			
				pbi said:
			
		

> Now, before I am assaulted by the flannel-wavers, look up professionalism as we currently define it in our Army. (Chapter 1, page 6, Duty With Honour). Having served 30 years in this Army of ours, I submit that we are far closer today to meeting that definition than we ever were back in the days of RSMs measuring trouser cuff lengths at the barrack gate.



Again - spectacular.  I have long held that the "good old days" weren't, at least as far as training and an operational; focus goes (mind you we did have more fun...)


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## the 48th regulator (28 Sep 2004)

Well here i go,

Those of you that know me I dig sandals, in the eating mess? Not Kosher.

As for Dress pants and collared shirts, mmm naw I can't wear that.  In fact if I had it my way I would wear a suit and a hat at all times.....god I was born too many years too late.  But the way things go now, different styles, but at least make your appearence clean and respectable.

Art you are bang on as always, and though I am loud in the mess you must admit I am always well dressed.  By the way Anthony Percival is getting married this weekend, I am in the wedding party!

whew, time for a beer, "Bar keep another round while I loosen my tie!"

tess


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## jfladeroute (28 Sep 2004)

Is it possible to come down firmly in the middle on this?

While I would agree that "clean and neat" are probably the only required standards for an eating mess, there is more to etiquette than merely questions of dress. For example, I have found that many young officers haven't the slightest idea of decorum or the basic rules of civil interaction (particularly with guests).  

There's nothing wrong with standards, whether for dress, haircuts or behaviour. Maintaining arbitrary standards that are no longer reflective of society in general, simply for the sake of "tradition" may be wrong (in some instances), but requiring a standard of deportment (be it in garrison, field or mess) is not. And doing so need not detract from professionalism; I don't think anyone would advocate a return to a time when one's skill with a shrimp fork was considered a measure of one's effectiveness as an officer.

Nonetheless, there are some social skills that are worth cultivating. I spend a fair portion of my job interacting with other agencies and civilians - and my behaviour does count in those circumstances. Not only does it count, but in many of these circumstances my behaviour is seen as reflecting on the entire CF (whether I like that position or not). Nice manners may not make up for lack of substance, but lack of manners can render substance moot.

Etiquette is, above all else, a social lubricant - basic rules of polite interaction (often untaught in today's increasingly "casual" society) can ease many a tense interaction.


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## dutchie (28 Sep 2004)

I think what has happened over the last few decades or so (not that I was around for a lot of that), is that we dropped a lot of the silly stupid rules (mess jacket & tie, for instance) but retained the important rules that still reflect current military culture. It might be OK to forgo the mess jacket or even the collared shirt, but a lot of people would balk at ripped jeans or a dirty uniform. 

But I also see things in two distinct categories: basic manners, and military etiquette. I have less of a problem with a troop in a t-shirt,dirty combats, or PT kit than I do for the pig that belches, scratched, or farts while eating. One is more tradition, one is basic manners.

If you cannot keep your body gasses inside, your mouth closed when chewing, your hands out of your crotch, and your fingers out of your nose, please find somewhere else to eat. But if you want to eat in a t-shirt (reasonably clean), shorts, or even pt kit, you can sit next to me anytime.


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## AmmoTech90 (28 Sep 2004)

I agree with the previous two posters.  Let actions speak louder than appearance.
If you don't stink, aren't covered in motor oil, and are dressed well enough to eat in a decent restaurent (that could be subjective) then by all means you should be able to eat in the mess.  If however you are dressed in a morning suit but can't be polite, well-spoken, and pleasent to be around then don't bother showing up.  There are of course times when a party is called for but common-sense applies, smokers/course parties should be private affaires.
I wen't through reg basic not that long ago (89) and I remember a briefing on ettiquette and when to salute people.  One of the times a salute was warrented was when meeting a lady of your acquaitance on the street.  This has since been removed from Drill and Cerimonial but some basic rules of manners should still apply.  During my reserve basic (87) we had a mess dinner and at least half a day on deportment and behaviour.  Is anything like this still done?  When in public behave yourself, and watch other military members so they don't make fools of themselves.  This isn't limited to young soldiers, I've seen plenty people with substantial time-in able to make you cring at their behaviour, some of whom would want you thrown out of mess for a tee-shirt as look at you.


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## Sailing Instructor (29 Sep 2004)

The way clothes evolve I often imagine a future CF where CADPAT, flight-suits, and boarding-party coveralls are the mess dress...!

But I digress, here's a question:  why can only Capt(N)s and above wear a tailcoat instead of a mess jacket?  (Or a boatcloak for that matter.)  Obviously they are senior, but I believe all naval officers used to wear white tie as their formal evening rig and I must say it surely looks better than the naval mess jacket.  The army mess jackets (with the high collar) look so idiosyncratic that they cannot be compared to any civvy dinner dress (and are beautiful in their own right) but the naval mess jacket looks like a tailcoat that has been angrily taken to with a sword after many trippings-upon.

And what is with the 'CF Standard' mess dress?  Is that just a hangover from pre-1984 rifle green?  

One last question: how many army or air people have their 'shipboard mess dress' shoulder_boards_? And do these people like the shoulderboard better than the slip-on? (As I do, for aesthetic reasons, obviously.)


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## Art Johnson (30 Sep 2004)

John give Anthony my best wishes, I hope you are not going to wear sandals to the Wedding, maybe Blues would be appropriate

Aye 
 Dileas


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## the 48th regulator (30 Sep 2004)

Art Johnson said:
			
		

> John give Anthony my best wishes, I hope you are not going to wear sandals to the Wedding, maybe Blues would be appropriate
> 
> Aye
> Dileas



hehe will do Art, and I promise not to wear the sandals, but you must admit the blues witht the horse hair sporn and sandals could make for a new look at the regiment....

tess


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## pbi (2 Oct 2004)

> One last question: how many army or air people have their 'shipboard mess dress' shoulderboards? And do these people like the shoulderboard better than the slip-on? (As I do, for aesthetic reasons, obviously.)





Its a bit hard for us Army types to answer this, because we generally wear mess kit unique to our Regiment or Branch. On top of that, there are often variations due to the age of the uniform, the rank of the wearer, personal taste, etc. In my Regiment (PPCLI) for example, we would find it a rather pedestrian lack of imagination for two Patricia officers to be dressed the same in mess kit. PPCLI Guy/Mark C. may wish to comment on this. Cheers.


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## PPCLI Guy (2 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> In my Regiment (PPCLI) for example, we would find it a rather pedestrian lack of imagination for two Patricia officers to be dressed the same in mess kit. PPCLI Guy/Mark C. may wish to comment on this. Cheers.



One could argue that this penchant extends beyond mess kit - especially in the field!  Of course, I see this as a good thing, and part of the unique character of our Regiment.

I actually have to get a new Mess Kit jacket.  I bought mine in Cyprus in 89, back when I weighed 175lbs.  I am quite a bit bigger in the shoulders and chest now (as well as other parts of me sadly...) and I now find it quite difficult to get my food up to my mouth - which could be a good thing I guess!


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## big_castor (2 Oct 2004)

Sailing Instructor said:
			
		

> And what is with the 'CF Standard' mess dress?   Is that just a hangover from pre-1984 rifle green?



Yep.   Everybody was wearing the same midnight blue mess kit.   It's still the Air Force mess kit but without the collar badges.


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## pbi (3 Oct 2004)

PPCLI Guy said:



> get my food up to my mouth



"food" or "foot"?  VP. Cheers.


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## PPCLI Guy (3 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> "food" or "foot"?   VP. Cheers.



A the eternal battle to see which I can put in my mouth first...


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## Sailing Instructor (4 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> Its a bit hard for us Army types to answer [whether we wear our green shoulderboards], because we generally wear mess kit unique to our Regiment or Branch. On top of that, there are often variations due to the age of the uniform, the rank of the wearer, personal taste, etc. In my Regiment (PPCLI) for example, we would find it a rather pedestrian lack of imagination for two Patricia officers to be dressed the same in mess kit.



Glad to hear about the abundance of variation, I'm all for that, especially since the mess is hardly like a 'normal' parade--no one observes a standard pause when eating their soup, so a perfectly uniform set of uniforms would loose any effect it might have (and to whom would the effect be directed?   Not too many spectators at a mess dinner!).

But are you saying that aboard ship, one doesn't usually wear 'shipboard mess dress'?   I have no experience with shipboard mess dinners and only brought it up after reading that bit about green and blue shoulderboards in the CF dress instructions.   Frankly, I'd rather not wear that abberation of dinner dress.   To me, anything with short sleeves is not 'dress.'

EDIT:  Ah, of course, forgot Shipboard mess dress is a silly bureaucratic name for 'Red sea rig:' what (officers) wore while stationed in hot climates during the days when people still had sense enough to change for dinner as long as they were not working.  Properly speaking it is not actually 'dress,' rather it is a form of mess _un_dress in that there are no nametags, medals/ribbons, or gold lace (which are dressings).  It'd be neat to update our mess undress & wear a cummerbund with naval combat shirt & trousers.  I don't know...just throwing an idea out there.


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