# CS and batons for private security?



## rz350 (10 Jul 2006)

Not sure if this is the right form, but it seems to be the best one.

Talking with some co-workers at work (I work security at large events in Toronto...for example, I was at Slayer, in the mosh pit) we think it would be nice to be allowed to carry CS spray and batons, at least batons.  We get into fights on a nightly basis, often with drunk/drugged persons who are being quite violent. And we are expected to handle it with screaming and open hand maneuvers. Would it really be so bad if private security could carry ASP batons or CS spray? I'm sure a few hippies would oppose it, until they are reminded its us protecting their 14 year old daughter from 28 year old "meat" who just smoked a crystal.

*sigh* this was more of a rant then anything, but I figure if any forum would understand, it would be this one.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Jul 2006)

One of the problems is that that would put the insurance premiums and the liability issues outside the reach of most promoters.....


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## George Wallace (10 Jul 2006)

Are you registered as a LEO?  NO.  Then those would be construed as WEAPONS.

Why in the world would you want to use CS in the first place?  Are you totally nuts?  Pepper Spray is what the Police use.


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## techie (10 Jul 2006)

and what going to stop a group of 5 guys jumping the security gaurd, and taking the spray/baton.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Jul 2006)

Which is why we don't carry them even in Ontario prisons....except when its team time.


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## rz350 (10 Jul 2006)

The reason I want something, maybe not CS (just an ASP would be fine) is because when you have some big guy who's all drugged up and being totally unreasonable (i.e. you decide to disengage and just let him do whatever he was doing) and he wont back off, well, empty hand doesn't leave you with a lot of options/ability to defend your self. CS is a bit heavy I'l admit, but something more then fists, but not lethal(like an ASP baton) would be nice.


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## George Wallace (10 Jul 2006)

In the scenario that you are painting, cops have filled guys like that with lead, and they still kept coming.  Not much you could do with an ASP or can of Raid.


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## rz350 (10 Jul 2006)

Actaully that is a good point. And having looked into it further, it seems from the new PSIA act in Ontario, that Private security will be allowed to carry batons when it comes into effect (and it will make training mandatory to work as a guard, and require extra endorsements via training to carry a baton ect) But taht is a good point, against the insane crank heads, it probably wont help much anyways.


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## medicineman (10 Jul 2006)

I think you want OC spray as opposed to CS don't you (pepper spray vs tear gas)?  Since they aren't always the greatest against druggies or drunks, hey why not just ask for tasers?  Better yet, go a step up to bean bag rounds from a 12 gauge?  Or one of these  :rocket: ?  :

MM


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## rz350 (10 Jul 2006)

A bean bag gun would be fun.  "Whats that, your not  going to leave?" *WHOOOP* LOL I think the new act should brings things up to a resonable level.


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## new_armoured_trooper (10 Jul 2006)

I know personally with the security company i work for we are trained / licenced to carry OC spray, baton, handcuffs. We had to go through cerification and testing for all of them, and are issued based on the location you'll be working at. For example at a low risk site we may just use open hand techniques and de-escalation as much as possible, to a high risk site using handcuffs, baton, and OC spray while wearing Level 3a vests. 

There is an incredible amount of liability involved if you are not licenced, and most of the training we received always came back to the point of what is court defensible, and what is not. Even though we are licenced to carry, especially the baton, if we are pulled over by the police we are guaranteed to have some very serious explaining to do, and generally will actually contact the local police force and advise them of any equipment we may be transporting. My understanding of it was that if you are caught carrying it, even in a standard carrier it can still be easily considered carrying a deadly weapon. 

I have personally had to use my baton in a few situations, but it is always an absolute last resort, where all else has failed, i have hopefully been able to contact the local police and help is on the way. The few times i did use it, there was a great deal of explaining that had to be done in court, as a single strike, properly applied will generally break bone. It may be a cool piece of kit to have initially, but like anything, must be treated with a great deal of respect.


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## techie (10 Jul 2006)

I personally would prefer tasers... i love Tasers sooooooooooooooooo much. I love watching people getting taserd. As for it being in the hands of security, i think, as new-sig-op just said, it should only be carried where there is high risk(not a mall security guard), and have extensive training with a liscence to carry.


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## rz350 (10 Jul 2006)

Sig_op your company seems to have it will together, and has the type of solution I was thinking of. I didn't even know it was available! I agree, not for low risk situations. I was thinking housing projects (which Ive pulled a few shifts in) certain placements at events (i.e. the pit at a metal show, and possibly the door, where guards have been assaulted when turning people away for trying to take drugs or weapons into the event) and of course with good training and licensing.

Its just the two times that I've been assaulted by big, mean guys, who don't back off, and had to deal with it empty hand that makes me want something on my side(whew for a radio and my coworkers). (Mind, I do carry a 3C Magg-lite, but that would be very hard to explain using, but I suppose if it comes down to it, its there and can break a bone...but I dont carry it for a weapon, I carry it as I often do hours of bag searching and need a light with long life, which the multi large cell seems to provide)


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## new_armoured_trooper (10 Jul 2006)

i have to admit, I do work for an excellent company. If we do need to use force, and it is justified our bosses will go to the limits to back us up. The few times i had to use my baton it was when i was faced with numerous, very intoxicated individuals with improvised weapons, who would not respond to anything but a good smack. Mind you i had been on my radio at that point requesting any available backup, as well as the local police force. 

In a dire situation a maglite can be used to defend yourself, and i have to admit, i have seen it stand up in court, though i would not recommend it. I prefer to bring the local police in when i can, as well, lets face it, for what we get paid its nowhere near the risk. The way we had  been trained is it any intermediary weapons (OC spray, baton) should be a last resort, but if needed, to use as much as needed. I would rather, and have had to explain in court why i emptied an entire can of OC spray in someones face, but i would rather stand before a crown then have a pastor stand over my grave. 

If i remember correctly, section 25 of the criminal code outlines the justifiable use of force, as well as your protection under the law to use it. With the proper training they can all be used as effective tools, especially de-escalation. Seeing a baton in the hands of someone who at the very least looks like they know how to use it is generally more then enough to make people back down.


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## rz350 (10 Jul 2006)

I know 494 allows the use of any reasonable force to effect an arrest by a private citizen provided said citizen sees an indictable offense taking place (like assaulting a security guard would be) so you could use the force and arrest the person assaulting you. But still, its a narrow line to walk between resonable force and assault... But like you said, Its better to stand before a crown then a priest over your grave.


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## purple peguin (11 Jul 2006)

I would think it would be a good idea if they where properley trained.


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## rz350 (11 Jul 2006)

To correct my post about arrest and use of force.

You where Sig_op it is section 25 that gives use of force, and sec 494 that gives private arrest powers.


*  Section 494*

Arrest without warrant by any person
 494. (1) Any one may arrest without warrant

(a) a person whom he finds committing an indictable offence; or

(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes

(i) has committed a criminal offence, and

(ii) is escaping from and freshly pursued by persons who have lawful authority to arrest that person.

Arrest by owner, etc., of property
 (2) Any one who is

(a) the owner or a person in lawful possession of property, or

(b) a person authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of property,

may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.

Delivery to peace officer
 (3) Any one other than a peace officer who arrests a person without warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.



*Section 25*


Protection of persons acting under authority
 25. (1) Every one who is required or authorized by law to do anything in the administration or enforcement of the law

(a) as a private person,

(b) as a peace officer or public officer,

(c) in aid of a peace officer or public officer, or

(d) by virtue of his office,

is, if he acts on reasonable grounds, justified in doing what he is required or authorized to do and in using as much force as is necessary for that purpose.


sec 494 provides the authorization to engage in the enforcement of the law that sec 25 requires.


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## new_armoured_trooper (11 Jul 2006)

It definetly is a very fine line, and i have been accused of crossing it in court. As long as you can prove that you used the least amount of force needed to control the subject, then you should be fine. You will always have defense lawyers who will try to discredit you. Personally i was accused of assault for shattering someones wrist with a baton, but it was upheld as his wrist was broken to force him to let go of the pair of scissors he had stabbed me in the vest with several times.


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## MPIKE (11 Jul 2006)

I would rather like to see the emphasis be put on Private Security to become good witnesses.  Are there instances where they could use this equipment? sure.  But a cellphone or comms to call 911 is just as effective.  The security field is largely unregulated and are not held to a standard that would warrant the use of those options.  UofF options comes with a boat load of responsibility.

If a situation escalates to where you need to use that equipment it is probably a matter that the police should be involved in anyhow.  

Also you as security have to weigh the importance of the situation. If it is a property related offence it is probably not worth sacrificing yourself.  Standback, be a good witness and gather the facts for a good conviction.


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## rz350 (11 Jul 2006)

PIKER said:
			
		

> I would rather like to see the emphasis be put on Private Security to become good witnesses.  Are there instances where they could use this equipment? sure.  But a cellphone or comms to call 911 is just as effective.  The security field is largely unregulated and are not held to a standard that would warrant the use of those options.  UofF options comes with a boat load of responsibility.
> 
> If a situation escalates to where you need to use that equipment it is probably a matter that the police should be involved in anyhow.
> 
> Also you as security have to weigh the importance of the situation. If it is a property related offence it is probably not worth sacrificing yourself.  Standback, be a good witness and gather the facts for a good conviction.



How about assualt and human safety related? How about the 3-4 minutes between grabbing your cellphone will being punched and kicked and the police arriving?


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## The_Falcon (12 Jul 2006)

new_sig_op,  I would very much like to know the company you are working for considering that carrying/using OC Spray is ILLEGAL by anyone other than PEACE OFFICERS (And even that depends on the agency particularly Special Constable services.).  Either you are blowing smoke up our asses, or your company and yourself are breaking the law.

http://www.mpss.jus.gov.on.ca/english/police_serv/PISG/guidelines/pisg_typical_conditions.html



> Repellant Spray
> *A security guard may normally only carry a repellant spray when deployed with a guard dog. If any time a security guard is found in possession of a repellant spray of any kind and not engaged in canine duties, they and the employing agency may be subject to prosecution for possession of a prohibited weapon and may have their licence suspended or revoked. This includes oleoresin capsicum spray or foam, pepper spray of any kind, mace or bear/animal spray.*
> 
> The regulations to the Criminal Code provides the following definition for a prohibited weapon as it pertains to a repellant spray:
> ...


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## rz350 (12 Jul 2006)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> new_sig_op,  I would very much like to know the company you are working for considering that carrying/using OC Spray is ILLEGAL by anyone other than PEACE OFFICERS (And even that depends on the agency particularly Special Constable services.).  Either you are blowing smoke up our asses, or your company and yourself are breaking the law.
> 
> http://www.mpss.jus.gov.on.ca/english/police_serv/PISG/guidelines/pisg_typical_conditions.html




Or, maybe, just maybe, he is a K9 unit? There are good nuber of K9 security companies.


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## Kal (12 Jul 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> Actaully that is a good point. And having looked into it further, it seems from the new PSIA act in Ontario, that Private security will be allowed to carry batons when it comes into effect (and it will make training mandatory to work as a guard, and require extra endorsements via training to carry a baton ect) But taht is a good point, against the insane crank heads, it probably wont help much anyways.



When is this due to pass and come into effect?


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## rz350 (12 Jul 2006)

It passed a while ago, but its date of effect is a proclamation from the Lt.gov, so no one knows for sure, but rumors are at the end of this year or beginning of next, from what I hear from managers and such at my company.


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## The_Falcon (12 Jul 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> Or, maybe, just maybe, he is a K9 unit? There are good nuber of K9 security companies.



1) He never said anything about K9
2) It is not automatic that because a company uses K9 that they will automatically be permitted to carry OC Spray, the company I used to work for (Intelligarde) used K9 extensively but they were not permitted OC Spray.  It is a condition of the business licence.
3) If permitted you can ONLY carry the spary WHEN you have the K9 with you. No dog no spray.


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## The_Falcon (12 Jul 2006)

Kal said:
			
		

> When is this due to pass and come into effect?





			
				rz350 said:
			
		

> It passed a while ago, but its date of effect is a proclamation from the Lt.gov, so no one knows for sure, but rumors are at the end of this year or beginning of next, from what I hear from managers and such at my company.



It was passed and proclaimed in Decemember 2005, however the regulations will not be out till the begining of 2007.  Until the new regulations are in effect the old ones are still in use.


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## rz350 (13 Jul 2006)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> 1) He never said anything about K9
> 2) It is not automatic that because a company uses K9 that they will automatically be permitted to carry OC Spray, the company I used to work for (Intelligarde) used K9 extensively but they were not permitted OC Spray.  It is a condition of the business licence.
> 3) If permitted you can ONLY carry the spary WHEN you have the K9 with you. No dog no spray.



But we dont know for sure, he does claim to be lic for OC. So if having K9 is required for that, then maybe he is k9? Maybe its bad of me (seriously, its a bit of a fault I suppose) but I like to assume people who work in security, policing, EMT, fire, members of the CF, ect are good folk who are usually doing the right thing.

and your sure its gonna be early 07 for the new regs? That's what I heard too, but I was treating it as conjecture, cause I've only heard it from my managers and such, who are not CSCS ministry officials. But since everyone is saying it, its probably true. *woohoo* I'm looking forward to them, hopefully it will bring the industry up a bit, and get alot of the useless wanks that I am forced to call co-workers at my company to get trained and smarten up, or get out.

edit-clarity and more info, and grammer


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## The_Falcon (13 Jul 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> But we dont know for sure, he does claim to be lic for OC. So if having K9 is required for that, then maybe he is k9? Maybe its bad of me (seriously, its a bit of a fault I suppose) but I like to assume people who work in security, policing, EMT, fire, members of the CF, ect are good folk who are usually doing the right thing.
> 
> and your sure its gonna be early 07 for the new regs? *woohoo* Io'm looking forward to them, hopfully it will bring the industry up a bit, and get alot of the useless wanks that I am forced to call co-workers at my company to get trained and smarten up, or get out.



No we don't know for sure until he decides to come back and clarify.  That said, I stand by what I said, I worked for a company that used K9, and I have seen many others in and around T.O. and not once have I ever seen anyone carrying spray.  As well never assume, especially in the security industry, there are quite a few companies out there that not only skirt the line WRT the current laws and regulations, but go completely over that line.  I know of one contract company were at least 1 guard is carrying an ASP Style Baton (I can send you the link via pm) in their promotional material.  Why does that matter, well contract security are ONLY LEGALLY allowed non-collapsable batons  (such as PR24s or straight style).

As for the second part about the regulations, that is what my supervisor at work informed me, as they are trying to figure out whether or not we will be exempted as we are inhouse working for the city of Toronto.


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## rz350 (13 Jul 2006)

Inhouse isnt exempt anymore I dont think. Even one guy like a bouncer will need to comply with the new regs. Its a pain for the little guys, but its a good system that will make the industry as a whole more serious, professional, and bnetter able to do their jobs.


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## Scratch_043 (13 Jul 2006)

Under the new PSIA, all security, in house, bouncers, store detectives, etc. have to be licensed. There are no exceptions. This means that Bars will lose most of their bouncers, because of the new requirement for clean background, Stores will lose their detectives, because they can't pay for all of the training, etc. This then opens up those places for the security companies who _are_ licensed, and _do_ have the qualifications.


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## The_Falcon (13 Jul 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> Inhouse isnt exempt anymore I dont think. Even one guy like a bouncer will need to comply with the new regs. Its a pain for the little guys, but its a good system that will make the industry as a whole more serious, professional, and bnetter able to do their jobs.





			
				ToRN said:
			
		

> Under the new PSIA, all security, in house, bouncers, store detectives, etc. have to be licensed. There are no exceptions. This means that Bars will lose most of their bouncers, because of the new requirement for clean background, Stores will lose their detectives, because they can't pay for all of the training, etc. This then opens up those places for the security companies who _are_ licensed, and _do_ have the qualifications.



Yeah I realize that, both of you didn't read what I wrote, I am inhouse for the CITY,  meaning civic employee.  The Act even says it won't apply to certain people who are exempted by the regulations (which are still being written), we (the collective "we" really meaning my bosses) are trying to get us exempt status.  When I was working at the casino, OLGC in-house were already going to be exempted from this new act because they are already working for a government agency, because we had to have a AGCO gaming licence, and we were overseen by the OPP already.  So there will be execptions/exemptions made for certain groups, there always are.


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## new_armoured_trooper (13 Jul 2006)

Hello, 

Sorry about the extreme delay in my response. My computer needed to be completely formatted and a great deal of difficulty in getting the wireless connection going again. ah the joy of technology. I do apologize as i have been advised by my company that we are no longer carrying OC spray, and that this was an error on our part. Baton is still issued kit for specific positions, though there is a great deal of licencing / certification involved as i mentioned earlier. 

I do apologize for this mistake. My understanding is we are likely to be adding a K-9 component at some point, and will look into carrying the spray again at that point.


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## zipperhead_cop (15 Jul 2006)

I would hate like hell to see a bunch of batons get given out and lull some people into a false sense of security, only to engage in melee's that they should have disengaged from.  
Personally, I have used my baton twice for striking and spray once in the past eight years.  Both times the baton was useless and ended up being a pain in the ass once deployed and at hand.  The OC was also non-effective, since someone forgot to tell crack heads that it is supposed to be painful.  Most times that OC is deployed (in my experience), all it does is piss people off and run the risk of contaminating each other more than the bad guy.  OC would never be a viable option in a bar/concert situation.  Want to see your life go to the dump right quick when someones princess gets a shot of hot sauce from overspray and you get sued?  And if you get a bad judge, and they decide you were not in the lawful execution of your duties, you will be left swinging in the wind for civil liability.  Forget the "rather be judged by 12 than carried by six" macho crap.  Just get the hell out before it gets that bad.  
Keep it old school.  If you can't fight your way through the situation, then wait for back up, call the police and/or get the hell out of there.  Why would anyone be confronting multiple armed bad guys with weapons of opportunity?  Christ, I would be looking for an exit route, and I get to shoot people with weapons that come after me.  $15/hr cannot possibly be worth putting your health/life on the line.  I get paid to put my life on the line, and I am pretty stingy with that at best.  No way you should be going to the wall for some warehouse or ghetto project.


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## Nug (17 Jul 2006)

I was in Toronto a few years ago on a course and remember seeing security guards in a mall(don't ask me witch one because I can't remember) carrying side handle battons,handcuffs and wearing some form of body armour. I'm from Winnipeg and at the time it was a big deal for guards hear to be carrying cuffs let alone any of the rest. My question is has something changed over the years in Ontario that would have made carrying them OK then but not now or is it a restriction against the type of batton?


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## zipperhead_cop (17 Jul 2006)

Nug said:
			
		

> I was in Toronto a few years ago on a course and remember seeing security guards in a mall(don't ask me witch one because I can't remember) carrying side handle battons,handcuffs and wearing some form of body armour. I'm from Winnipeg and at the time it was a big deal for guards hear to be carrying cuffs let alone any of the rest. My question is has something changed over the years in Ontario that would have made carrying them OK then but not now or is it a restriction against the type of batton?



That style of baton is often called a Manadock (a company that makes them) or in martial arts a tonfa stick.  They were popular in the mid to late 90's, but there were some problems.  It is a very powerful weapon and has the potential to generate striking power that can break a cinder block.  When properly used, the pivoting action of the handle causes the momentum at the tip to be devastating.  Guys who know how to use them can make them seem like magic, and there are all kinds of cool tricks you can do with them.  
Part of the problem, as far as usage went, was that you need to do a lot of training with them to be proficient.  As well, when various training units for services looked at how officers were using them, something like 95% of officers just held it by the end and used it like a club, making the handle kind of usesless.  As well, there is no way to collapse the baton, so then you run into ergonomic issues while sitting in the cruisers.  I think most places have gone to ASP collapsable batons.  
Legislation wise, I'm not too sure.  I wouldn't surprise me to find out that places that had issued S/O's with batons later took them away once the companies got peppered with law suits from them being used.  Don't take that as a rip on private security.  Even we get sued if a shitheads cuffs are too tight and he gets an owwie.  We are starting to drift into the American style litigation nightmare.  
As far as body armour goes, why not?  There can't possibly be a downside to wearing it, other than some pantie waist thinking it looks "ooo, scary".  I always wore a vest internally at any job I ever worked.  That included the Scarborough Town Center 88-91 and the Four Seasons Hotel.  
Handcuffs are a must for anyone who may make an arrest.  Not having cuffs just ends up encouraging the asshat to keep fighting with you, and requires you to maintain them in a potentially injury-causing hold longer.  Most criminals stop fighting/trying to escape once they are cuffed.


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## rz350 (17 Jul 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Handcuffs are a must for anyone who may make an arrest.  Not having cuffs just ends up encouraging the asshat to keep fighting with you, and requires you to maintain them in a potentially injury-causing hold longer.  Most criminals stop fighting/trying to escape once they are cuffed.



True Dat! My company is cheap and wont give em to us, but we can buy our own. After two arrests without em, I am splurging for a set. I think they are an essential piece of kit for anyone who is acting in any kind of security role (bouncer, Loss prevention, regular security, anything) For the guards safety, the public's safety, and even the arrested party's safety.

If any hippie has a problem with guards carrying cuffs he can go to hell IMHO.


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## Nug (17 Jul 2006)

Don't get me wrong I'm not against guards being as well equipped as possible. I have worked security and I know first hand how painful it can be if you are forced to arrest someone without being properly equipped.I also think it is important that the Guards receive the proper and complete training in all the equipment that they are using so they understand the risk, liability and limitations of their equipment.


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## The_Falcon (17 Jul 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I wouldn't surprise me to find out that places that had issued S/O's with batons later took them away once the companies got peppered with law suits from them being used.  Don't take that as a rip on private security.  Even we get sued if a shitheads cuffs are too tight and he gets an owwie.  We are starting to drift into the American style litigation nightmare.



Not too many companies in T.O. issue batons because of the liability/insurance issues.  Intelligarde and Intercon have been using them for quite some time and they still have them.


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## Scratch_043 (18 Jul 2006)

At my company, we are authorized to carry cuffs after a course in arrest procedure and use of force is taken.

Personally, I would reccomend getting a few pairs of 'quick cuffs', as it gets expensive after a few times when local law enforcement takes custody and you don't get them back, or, god forbid, flight of the suspect.


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## zipperhead_cop (19 Jul 2006)

ToRN said:
			
		

> At my company, we are authorized to carry cuffs after a course in arrest procedure and use of force is taken.
> 
> Personally, I would reccomend getting a few pairs of 'quick cuffs', as it gets expensive after a few times when local law enforcement takes custody and you don't get them back, or, god forbid, flight of the suspect.



Here's a crazy thought.  Ask the officer to exchange cuffs.  
And if your prisoner gets away in your cuffs, you don't deserve to have them or be in a uniform.


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## The_Falcon (19 Jul 2006)

Or if you have different brands, have the officer place his cuffs on the perp while the perp is still wearing your bracelets.


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## zipperhead_cop (19 Jul 2006)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Or if you have different brands, have the officer place his cuffs on the perp while the perp is still wearing your bracelets.



That's what I meant.


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## Thompson_JM (24 Jul 2006)

When I worked In-House at the Courtyard Marriott Downtown T.O. I went out and purchased a set of the new ASP Steel/Polymer Cuffs. nice piece of kit to have. key holes on both sides, easy mech for double locking, and so ergonomic that it was actually comfortable to wear them around the wrist... (not like i care about the shitbag, but hey... its all about liability these days...) thankfully i only had to make two arrests in the 6 months i was there, and only one of them required force. (all empty handed techs.)  

if there is one thing I personally believe and have learned from my experiences, is that I will never go back to Private Security... its not worth the liability.... its not worth being dressed like a cop, but having minimal training, and no backup if you get taken to court. If im gonna start making arrests and having to use force im going to do it once im a cop, or when i have some sort of agency covering my arse with regards to training, and liability.... since looking back im pretty sure my hotel would have probably left me hanging in the wind had anything bad arisen out of those arrests....

but that's just my .02


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## Wolfmann (26 Jul 2006)

CS gas is silly...even pepperspray is silly, to some extent, but the expandable baton may not be a bad idea. It's not just a grab and smash sort of weapon, but can also be used to gain leverage, access pressure points and basically is like a big, over-sized kubaton. 

I still wouldn't recommend it for "Event Staff". For private security officers, that have received sufficient training, it is an invaluable tool. But Event Staff tend to be confronted with large masses of people, and their only real job is to protect the Talent, Promotoers, and other event staff from harm. Their effectiveness in a riot, or in actual fight goes down significantly that having an expandable baton may be redundant - chances are you'll forget about it, lose it, or someone will take it off your belt. Plus having it in your pocket could also make it now a "concealed weapon"...too much liability. 

If you want to carry an expandable baton, or feel your line of work has some unnecessary risks...than change jobs.


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## Wolfmann (26 Jul 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> To correct my post about arrest and use of force.
> 
> You where Sig_op it is section 25 that gives use of force, and sec 494 that gives private arrest powers.
> 
> ...



Just because it is authorized, and legal, doe not mean you should do it. There are a lot of items to consider when you make the decision to use force to either protect yourself, protect someone else, to protect your property, or to effect your powers of arrest. 

There's no turning back if you're wrong, go too far, or get out numbered or just plain put in the hospital.


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## Wolfmann (26 Jul 2006)

PIKER said:
			
		

> I would rather like to see the emphasis be put on Private Security to become good witnesses.  Are there instances where they could use this equipment? sure.  But a cellphone or comms to call 911 is just as effective.  The security field is largely unregulated and are not held to a standard that would warrant the use of those options.  UofF options comes with a boat load of responsibility.



85% of the industry is simply there to warm a seat, and keep an insurance requirement happy. It's unfortunately, but there are also competing interests within the government and law enforcement circles that do not allow private security to move forward. In one hand Private Security shoots itself in the foot by being commercially based and thus competitive, and in the other it can't even get out of the gate because their presence threatens main stream police and law enforcement agencies who see certain areas clearly as "THEIR TURF". If that's not bad enough, the main stream public that hires them is, well...cheap. 

Few realize that police services started out a hundred years ago or more out of a need for neighborhood security, and effectively were private security in areas where MIlitia could not patrol, or would not patrol. And it morphed, and changed, and progressed. 

There needs to be major reforms in how we approach private security in this country. 




> If a situation escalates to where you need to use that equipment it is probably a matter that the police should be involved in anyhow.



I wouldn't necessarily agree with that...I've been in plenty of situations where police attendance was a formality of process. Every situation is unique, and you affect officer safety if you limit their Use of Force response options when presented with situations which they  may not voluntarily enter, but are forced. Look at MLEO's in Toronto that get stabbed, hit, and abused...one even shot at...and that's a friggin' parking ticket. 

Now imagine a private security officer finds a crackhead and a vagrant smoking elicit drugs in a stairwell, one of them is an ex-con, and in the process of carrying out his duty the ex-con decides he doesn't want to go back to jail...the officer may not know this, feels he is dealing with a simple trespassing issue for which he/she was placed there...now the fight is on, and the officer is seriously hurt or injured in a situation which he/she could not retreat, or back out yet all he had was a note book and pen. 

These situations are not the exception to the rule, they happen regularly. Private Security are doing the jobs that police officers cannot or will not do, and private property owners are hiring them for these very reasons. 



> Also you as security have to weigh the importance of the situation. If it is a property related offence it is probably not worth sacrificing yourself.  Standback, be a good witness and gather the facts for a good conviction.



Well said, and effective for most situations. However, that is not the purpose for which some security are placed.

I'm all for mandating specific, minimum standards of qualifications for private security...even if you have different levels of qualication, such as what British Columbia and California have, that's okay. As long as there is some sort of forced standard.

Private Security can be an effective partner in law enforcement activities...but it's shot in the foot by it's own industry, and by competiting government interests. I place the fault at both the government, but mostly the bureaucrats that make up private security company management, and the cheap public sector that employs them without demanding any sort of given standard.


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Jul 2006)

Wolfmann said:
			
		

> and in the other it can't even get out of the gate because their presence threatens main stream police and law enforcement agencies who see certain areas clearly as "THEIR TURF".



Okay, our "turf" is the public trust.  We are sworn to uphold that trust.  You are protecting a piece of private property.  Observe, report.  That's it.  That's all you need to do.  The only reason police don't want to see security guards getting more latitude is just for this reason.  Some people feel they serve some higher purpose, when in fact the place that hired them is just looking for a percentage discount on their insurance.  



			
				Wolfmann said:
			
		

> Few realize that police services started out a hundred years ago or more out of a need for neighborhood security, and effectively were private security in areas where MIlitia could not patrol, or would not patrol. And it morphed, and changed, and progressed.



If the private security industry wants to become more professional and get better training for itself, then go for it.  Just don't be under the illusion that just because you have the training means you should use the training.  



			
				Wolfmann said:
			
		

> I wouldn't necessarily agree with that...I've been in plenty of situations where police attendance was a formality of process.



LIKE WHAT???  You are obliged to turn over anyone you arrest to a police officer.  If you are doing your own arrest and releases, you are begging to be sued, or even charged with assault.



			
				Wolfmann said:
			
		

> Every situation is unique, and you affect officer safety if you limit their Use of Force response options when presented with situations which they  may not voluntarily enter, but are forced. Look at MLEO's in Toronto that get stabbed, hit, and abused...one even shot at...and that's a friggin' parking ticket.



But those officers work for the City, not private security.  



			
				Wolfmann said:
			
		

> Now imagine a private security officer finds a crackhead and a vagrant smoking elicit drugs in a stairwell, one of them is an ex-con, and in the process of carrying out his duty the ex-con decides he doesn't want to go back to jail...the officer may not know this, feels he is dealing with a simple trespassing issue for which he/she was placed there...now the fight is on, and the officer is seriously hurt or injured in a situation which he/she could not retreat, or back out yet all he had was a note book and pen.



So why in the Christ would some lone guard try to arrest two people anyway?  And you think a metal stick is going to save your ass if two motivated guys take after you?  I hope you don't get to find out how wrong you are by living the lesson.  A lone police officer would not try that.  And any police officer knows to always have an exit strategy if things go to the dump, regardless of equipment.  What do you think this is?  Legolas and Gimli on the ramp into Helms Deep?   :  Two glorious guards smashing away at the advancing hordes of shambling crackheads in a stairwell?  A little more reality, less Doom 3.  
However, you do illuminate a problem in that if a security guard has a uniform that is pretty much identical to that of a police officer, equipment belt, cargo pants and such, that may put them in harms way when a drugged out idiot thinks he has to fight his was from an actual LEO.  



			
				Wolfmann said:
			
		

> These situations are not the exception to the rule, they happen regularly. Private Security are doing the jobs that police officers cannot or will not do, and private property owners are hiring them for these very reasons.



So illuminate what aspect of law enforcement you feel the police will not do?  



			
				Wolfmann said:
			
		

> Private Security can be an effective partner in law enforcement activities...but it's shot in the foot by it's own industry, and by competiting government interests. I place the fault at both the government, but mostly the bureaucrats that make up private security company management, and the cheap public sector that employs them without demanding any sort of given standard.



What competing government interests?  There are precious few funds for law enforcement these days, and Forces everywhere are hurting for numbers.  If security want to expand and stick a guy on every factory and car lot in Ontario, then great.  Go for it.  
As far as the "cheap public sector" that is the point.  They get what they are paying for.  So don't do more than you are being paid for.  
Wolf, perhaps you are getting a little too caught up in the "what if" fantasies that tend to circulate in the private security profession.  Try to take it easy, and just get through your shifts safe.


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## MPIKE (28 Jul 2006)

Zipper, +1 on your points.. again hats off to your style. Helmsdeep.. LMAO

Wolf,
Your last comments come off a little condescending or maybe with an arrogant tone but this afterall is in cyberspace.
 So I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however, I too, am not a "what if"  or "Last year at Band camp" guy.. So let's keep this factual and in the real realm.

No one on the security side of this thread has shown a base knowledge of UofF application to warrant allowing them access to these options.  As I stated earlier, with these options comes a boat load of responsibility also an understanding of the UofF continuum. There are a few that vary province to province but I will refer to the one I know best being Ontario.  In this continuum, it was updated to reflect Disengagment and Tac Comm throughout.   Something, I think the untrained seldom consider based on my experiences.  Many situations are escalated by the application of force rather than the rat in the stairwell and this is something that comprimises personal safety and liability.
  


> Now imagine a private security officer finds a crackhead and a vagrant smoking elicit drugs in a stairwell, one of them is an ex-con, and in the process of carrying out his duty the ex-con decides he doesn't want to go back to jail...the officer may not know this, feels he is dealing with a simple trespassing issue for which he/she was placed there...now the fight is on, and the officer is seriously hurt or injured in a situation which he/she could not retreat, or back out yet all he had was a note book and pen.



I don't need to imagine to much as I work on "your" turf.  : Looking at this scenario , (classic what-if) the first thing comes to mind is what authority you are dealing with and it is JUST a POA matter... Vagrancy is no longer an offence and CDSA matters aren't your scope all you are left with trespassing..so I will ask why are you putting yourself in this situation???.  Engage in Prohib Activity, TPA has you going toe to toe with not just a vagrant but an ex-con as well??...Come on..  Clearly, experience and training would have you handle this entirely differently. (trust us)  message throughout is keep it in perspective!



> author=PIKER link=topic=47119/post-410125#msg410125 date=1152651263] Standback, be a good witness and gather the facts for a good conviction.


I should clarify that when I said "Standback" that was not a suggestion to neglect your duties.  But it was in reference to gathering evidence for a conviction or assist in providing the lawful grounds for a  quality criminal arrest investigation. Something that I don't think is stressed enough given the number of one paragraph statements and security reports I have received.  

Security has these options available to them already in a Call for Service to their nearest Police Agency..  Before, the flaming begins , I understand that the security has very difficult job and there are dangers that arise from your line of work.  The LEO perspective here is meant as constructive as we  are held to task daily for this equipments use and implementation.  "Stand in the box" (aka testifying) a few times and you will know where we are coming from...


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Jul 2006)

+1 Piker

To add to that, I can certainly speak for my area when I say that when a call comes in that a security officer or loss prevention floor walker is chasing or fighting with someone, we tear ass to the call just as though it was one of our own.  I have also helped more than a few guys write reports to cover their asses when it came time to articulate their use of force.  We support security to the best of our abilities.  And we have gotten some great info from the private sector, particularly with the Casino surveillance guys and their wicked cameras.  
Nobody is conspiring against the security industry.  We want to see you guys get home at the end of your shifts, just like us.  But your safety is still our responsibility, regardless.


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## new_armoured_trooper (28 Jul 2006)

I apologize if this seems to derail this thread, but i just wanted to add something to my posts from earlier, especially in regard to illegal weapons being used by the Company i was, and no longer am, working for. They did continue to carry CS spray and Baton though they were apparently fully aware of the legalities concerned with this, and when i questioned it, i was told "Well if your using that spray and someone charges you, we wont  back you up in court". 

I was then advised i was no longer employed there, which i dont mind, I have found other work i enjoy much more, though i wanted to mention that the company is now under investigation for extreme misuse of government funding, in the form of a very large grant from the government of Ontario.


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Jul 2006)

new_sig_op said:
			
		

> I apologize if this seems to derail this thread, but i just wanted to add something to my posts from earlier, especially in regard to illegal weapons being used by the Company i was, and no longer am, working for. They did continue to carry CS spray and Baton though they were apparently fully aware of the legalities concerned with this, and when i questioned it, i was told "Well if your using that spray and someone charges you, we wont  back you up in court".
> 
> I was then advised i was no longer employed there, which i dont mind, I have found other work i enjoy much more, though i wanted to mention that the company is now under investigation for extreme misuse of government funding, in the form of a very large grant from the government of Ontario.



Looks like you got out just in time.  Good luck with your new endeavours.


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## rz350 (28 Jul 2006)

Tomorrow I'm going back into Loss Prevention (I had done it before, then went to events, now going back to LP) Hopfully all goes smoothly and theres no need for anyone to tear ***. But if it turns into a Mongolian Cluster **** I know I can count on a fast response. (But still it would be more comforting with a baton...but that can wait til after the new regs and training)


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Jul 2006)

I think I said it earlier, but I really have never been impressed with the batons for striking.  If you can't fight it out with your bare hands, think exit strategy.


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## rz350 (29 Jul 2006)

I can fight with my bare hands, and its worked quite well actually. But of course before going into any confrontation (even so much as asking someone to leave) I make sure I am not into a corner/locked hallway/ect, that I can get away if need be. Thanks for the advice tho.


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## Thompson_JM (5 Aug 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> I can fight with my bare hands, and its worked quite well actually. But of course before going into any confrontation (even so much as asking someone to leave) I make sure I am not into a corner/locked hallway/ect, that I can get away if need be. Thanks for the advice tho.



Exit Strategy Mucho Important.... also Mucho Important is having Comms... always always ALWAYS have Communication with someone... ie Manager, Dispatch etc... that way, if things go south, someone knows what your up to... The old company I worked for( a nameless K9 Security Company from hamilton who liked to dress there Guards like LEO's but give us NO training, unless we paid out of our own pocket... ) never gave site guards Mobile Radios, or Mike Phones or anything... they expected us to own cell phones and call in on our own dime to report in and out for shift, and if there was a problem to call in... if i ran into trouble (which i did at one site) my own personal system was call 911 first, and then when i have the time, I would call the Dispatch to give a SITREP. since i knew 5-0 would get there alot quicker then my former companies Mobile Patrol would...... 

Private Security isnt the worst job in the world, just remember, as a guard, watch your back, cause no one else will.... your company will cover itself first, and then cover you.... meaning if they have to hang someone out to dry, its gonna be you, not a manager...  

*This is my experiance working Low Level Private Security, low level meaning uniform and plain clothes LP and General Patrol*


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## rz350 (5 Aug 2006)

Comm is very important! Tho I do not always get it. *sigh* it depends on the site.

I know what you mean about leaving you to dry. I don't think its all management, some of my co-workers from the rank and file are pretty shameful when it comes to helping a fellow guard out.


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## portcullisguy (7 Aug 2006)

Security officers should definitely be equipped with use of force protective tools.

Reasonably, this could include batons and OC spray.  However, like with all use of force tools, this must come with comprehensive training.

Sadly, this does not even happen all the time in public law enforcement.  Perhaps the police religiously stick to their annual refresher training, but it's been nearly three years' since I qualified with my baton and OC spray.  This represents a huge civil liability, in my opinion.  Private industry would likely have to meet or exceed the very strict standards for training and follow-up refreshers, which brings the costs up.  And then it stops being economical for the clients.

In most cases, during my five years' working in security, a baton/spray would have done me no good.  I have not had to use them in my present public law enforcement capacity, and I've had plenty of opportunity, including several violent or potentially-violent arrests.  In my experience, officer presence goes a long way.

That said, when the going gets rough, disengage and get more help.

Even when I worked for one of the more hard-core Toronto security firms, we had to think before we acted, lest we end up with a trip to the hospital and/or jail.

Put simply, a baton is for actively resisting aggressors.  OC spray is for actively to combative resisting aggressors.  But neither tool is appropriate in all situations.

As it stands, the OC spray is illegal for private citizens.  The baton is not.  But great care and judgement must be used in employing either, in order to mitigate civil and criminal responsibility, even when defending yourself.


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## Inspir (8 Aug 2006)

I am working as a security officer right now at a homeless shelter in Calgary (East Village) while completing college. When I first started I was amazed of the amount of drug users, drug dealers, violent offenders, prostitutes, and overall crap disturbers. I learned quickly to watch not only my back but also the back of my partner. I would have to say that the tool of the trade is common sense and maturity. 

As far as I know the Alberta Government is in the process within the next 8 months to approve the use of OC spray and batons for private security. This is my take on it:

*OC Spray* - I would be fine with this as a last resort defensive tool *only*. This is to say a SO would not use this just because a trespasser will not leave the premises or gave the SO a dirty look. I've seen SO's slam a guy to the ground and in cuffs just because they looked at them the wrong way, I could just imagine what would happend if OC spray was issued.

*Batone* - This I would have a problem with. Why? Because if you use it on someone you are just asking to be sued. You just tap someone in the knees with that thing and they could be crippled for life.

*Firearms* - Ya right! Asking for an accident

*Tasers* - Ya right! Asking for an accident

If crap hits the fan that is why you have a radio/cell phone. *911 !* I have to remind allot of guys at work that they are security officers and not peace officers. Anyone one can arrest a person, its called section 494 of the Criminal Code, a.k.a. citizens arrest.

My two cents


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## Dox (8 Aug 2006)

I work as a LPO and I can't even count the amount of times I wished for a ASP, not much fun trying to arrest someone that isn't worried about carrying illegal weapons. People have tried to stab me and tazer me and all I get is a pair of cuffs and some slash proof gloves.


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## Inspir (8 Aug 2006)

Same. I get slash resistant gloves, bullet proof and spike proof vest, handcuffs, and a radio. 

Sure it would be nice to have the other toys, but if you are doing your job right you will never have to use them. E.g.: Verbal Judo


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## Dox (8 Aug 2006)

I'm undercover no vest no radio no back up


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## zipperhead_cop (8 Aug 2006)

Dox said:
			
		

> I work as a LPO and I can't even count the amount of times I wished for a ASP, not much fun trying to arrest someone that isn't worried about carrying illegal weapons. People have tried to stab me and tazer me and all I get is a pair of cuffs and some slash proof gloves.



Dude, at such time as some clown pulls out so much as a sharpened popsicle stick, let them go!  Get a good description, direction of travel and go home at the end of your shift.


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## Dox (8 Aug 2006)

We do let them go Zipper, unfortunately I have found myself in a few situations where they didn't just take off like I hoped. Where I was almost tazed I Had been forced to take the suspect to the ground But had done it in such a way as to be able to keep a eye on his partner, I didn't count on the 3rd guy jumping me from behind. This was all within a few feet of the entrance of where I was working. Next thing I know I'm in a huge fight to try to let them go however they seemed to feel that being let go was not good enough and that I needed to be beaten first so while struggling to get away from 2 opponents I see the 3rd coming in with the tazer fortunately before he had a chance to get me passersby finally started shouting and they took off at which point I called 911 for police and a ambulance.


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## Dox (8 Aug 2006)

For the record I don't want a baton so I can go around "wacking badguys" I would like one as more of a " hey! you have a knife, I have a big stick, Please feel free to run away now!"


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## rz350 (8 Aug 2006)

I get whatever I personally buy.

On a side note, private security officers do have guns, but they work for brinks and securicor.  They've not seemed to have too many accidents, but they are forced to be trained to a very high standard.

Perhaps somthing similar with batons and OC for non money transporting private security?


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## Nug (8 Aug 2006)

Just a little clarification, guards at armoured car companies are not considered security guards because they don't have security guards licence. But there are some security companies that provide armed guards for special events or purposes.


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## rz350 (8 Aug 2006)

Still, its the same sort of work, Holding one self out for hire to protect persons or property. 

But I do see what you mean, its not in the PISGA its some other act.


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## Nug (8 Aug 2006)

Mind you even though we're not  security guards. there is some question as to wether we will have to take the mandatory security guard training being developed for Manitoba.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Aug 2006)

Dox said:
			
		

> For the record I don't want a baton so I can go around "wacking badguys" I would like one as more of a " hey! you have a knife, I have a big stick, Please feel free to run away now!"



Please stop now!!!

If your baton is the top of your force loop than YOU had better get away when a sharp-edged weapon comes out.

Debilitating close weapon against a deadly force close weapon = loser.


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## zipperhead_cop (9 Aug 2006)

Bruce, I'm afraid that this is one that will come under the heading of "Lessons Learned".   :-\
Suffice it to say that many fully armed and fully trained LEO's have been wounded or killed by knife wielding attackers.  You are giving your 26" metal tube far too much credit for effectiveness.


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## The_Falcon (9 Aug 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> Still, its the same sort of work, Holding one self out for hire to protect persons or property.
> 
> But I do see what you mean, its not in the PISGA its some other act.



Its not the same line of work.  Brinks et al are COURIER companies (that specialize in transport materials with a high monetary value, they are no different than UPS or Fedex), not SECURITY (they are specifically exempted from licensing in both the old act and the new one, because they do not provide security services as their MAIN service, which is the key component).  The employees are armed to protect THEMSELVES (for the most part, basically can't use the firearm as a police officer would) not their cargo. The regulations that govern the armoured car industry (for the most part) are set down be each provincial Chief Firearms Officer, and the Federal Firearms Act. 

As well when security officers are authorized to carry firearms, it is under the same conditions as a regular armoured courier service employee, and they can only carry it when they are performing the task they were authorised for (ie cash escort).  Once they have completed that specific task, they can no longer carry the firearm on them.


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## MPIKE (9 Aug 2006)

Dox said:
			
		

> For the record I don't want a baton so I can go around "wacking badguys" I would like one as more of a " hey! you have a knife, I have a big stick, Please feel free to run away now!"


and you will hear from the rat (tries best Croc Dundee accent) "that's not a knife..This IS a Knife!!"

Dox Dox Dox.. :tsktsk:

 Just when this thread is righted up on the correct path of common sense another post comes along negating the 'think before you post' rule.. I can not let you think this statement is acceptable or even by chance having a lurker read it and think 'hey that's a good idea' ..

Knives= :skull: bad day at the office! and it's this attitude that get's you killed. 

As Zipper and Bruce have already commented here is a visual aid illustrating what they are trying to tell you before you experience the Lesson Learned phase.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8884586003342147853&q=knife+fighting

**Pay special attention to 6:55  into the vid and the 3 Rules provided.  It is something that has been said throughout this thread by Zipper and myself.  We are not talking out of A$$es here.  I can't be anymore blunt...

Stop tryin to be heroes.  Be good witnesses!


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## Dox (9 Aug 2006)

Still missing the point It is very easy to say "just let them go" As I stated I have found myself in more than one situation where a suspect just would not let me let them go. I have released the suspect I'm trying to back away I have removed myself from the suspects flight path and yet instead of fleeing the suspect (sometimes more than one) advances on me intent on causing me bodily harm because he is drunk or drugged up or just pissed off. The bad guys are getting more and more violent and more and more are carrying weapons because they know the justice system is a joke and they are just going to get a slap on the wrist, Meanwhile I get to spend hours in the hospital and miss work due to people I was trying to let go. I firmly believe that a properly trained LPO or SO should be allowed to carry more than a pair off handcuffs for when they find themselves In a situation where their lives are in danger from a person or persons that just won't let you back off. As it stands now if I find myself in a situation such as this the top of my force loop is Hand to hand and harsh words. I also fail to see how the attitude of preferring a weapon wielding suspect would just run away is the wrong one to have.


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## Nug (9 Aug 2006)

Well I would hope the issue and use of pepper spray/batons will be solved for us. I would hope that when the provinces change the rules governing security guards and if they allow the use of this equipment a proper use use of force policy for the guards will be put in place. It should be noted that a use of force continuem is only a guide and that you are still governed ultimately by the criminal code.

Hatchet +1. sometimes when we get new guys you have to explain to them that just because we wear a uniform and carry a firearm that doesn't make us cops. Its our job to avoid a fight not get in one.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Aug 2006)

Dox,
For the same reason that I don't carry anything but my brains when I walk among my dormitory of 50+ inmates. When your outnumbered and/or ambushed your weapon very quickly becomes their weapon.


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## Dox (9 Aug 2006)

I would assume the inmates are slightly less likely to attack you then someone I'm trying to arrest as well I assume you are not all alone with no hope of immediate assistance as I am. Being that they are both very different situations We will not agree on this you are looking at it from your situation I'm looking at it from mine . How do you feel about when Corrections Canada was saying that CO's shouldn't get to wear Stab vests because it would cause a Hostile environment and upset the inmates? Seems to me that a great many Co's spent alot of time fighting for the right to use a item that may potentially save their life one day. I doubt very much many people went around essentially telling them they are stupid for wanting a better way to protect themselves.


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## zipperhead_cop (9 Aug 2006)

Dox said:
			
		

> I would assume the inmates are slightly less likely to attack you then someone I'm trying to arrest as well I assume you are not all alone with no hope of immediate assistance as I am. Being that they are both very different situations We will not agree on this you are looking at it from your situation I'm looking at it from mine . How do you feel about when Corrections Canada was saying that CO's shouldn't get to wear Stab vests because it would cause a Hostile environment and upset the inmates? Seems to me that a great many Co's spent alot of time fighting for the right to use a item that may potentially save their life one day. I doubt very much many people went around essentially telling them they are stupid for wanting a better way to protect themselves.



I imagine that at such time a CO gets his vest torn off and gets beaten with it they will lose them.  :


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## Dox (9 Aug 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I imagine that at such time a CO gets his vest torn off and gets beaten with it they will lose them.  :


 Most likely But last I heard they still were not allowed to even have them. Because a bunch of people don't want Inmates to feel bad. And by that argument Police should have their guns taken away? There Have be a number of incidents of officers being shot with their own weapons.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Aug 2006)

Even with a vest as soon as a sharp-edged weapon appears [unless of course there is danger to the public] than NOTHING else matters but mine and my co-workers escape route.......


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## Dox (9 Aug 2006)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Even with a vest as soon as a sharp-edged weapon appears [unless of course there is danger to the public] than NOTHING else matters but mine and my co-workers escape route.......


And when your escape route is blocked?


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## Screw (9 Aug 2006)

Dox said:
			
		

> And when your escape route is blocked?



Then you need to plan better. Why would you get stuck in a corner? Sounds like you stroll around without a care in the world and you want a baton because you dont plan properly.

Your inability to articulate your ideas leads me to believe you shouldnt be armed with anything other then a cell phone. Those who carry, must convey. If you want to be a cop or a CO become a cop or a CO. Dont just try and look like one so somebody pulls your card.

Screw


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## Dox (9 Aug 2006)

Thanks But I'm actually a Trained and Licensed Private Investgator, And when you walk out a exit Door after a suspect that you are suppose to be arresting ( a requirement of the law they must exit the store to prove intent) And you suddenly find yourself confronted by his 4 Friends and your backed against a Door Or worse Jumped from behind The world doesn't always go according to any well thought out plan. As for your slam about wanting to be a police officer or CO I never said I want ed to be either one I was drawing a comparison between situations. Plus the condescending attitude that most of the people here seem to have regarding private security and LPO's leads me to believe that many of the members here Have a low opinion of people that do those jobs. I'm good at my job and I take pride in what I do, however I am expected to effect arrests upon people carrying weapons, many with lengthily criminal records that will get no more than a slap on the wrist for assaulting me in the process, People that I have seen fight with the police while in handcuffs. And I'm suppose to do that with nothing more than a smile, yet I suggest That a properly trained person in my position should be allowed to carry a baton and I am attacked as some sort of a idiot who has no idea what I'm talking about or doing. As for my inability to articulate my ideas exactly which ones are you having a hard time understanding? I feel a properly trained person should be allowed to carry a baton, As many Co's felt that they should be allowed to wear sharps vest despite what other people thought and the fact that a LPO or Private Security guard could have a baton taken from them and used against them has not stopped the police from continuing to issue Handguns to officers Which have in the past been taken away and tragical used against the officers themselves. I thought I had made that all fairly clear.To top it off if I may ask How Long you have work as a LPO Screw? Because If you have never worked as one I wouldn't expect you to understand the situations that we can find ourselves in that no amount of planning can ready you for. I'm sure my sister who has now been of work for a month because a suspect broke her arm only to be released from custody the next day and one of my co-workers that suffered multiple Broken bones after being jumped while doing everything exactly the way he was required to do it thought that they had planned everything out as best they could.


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## paracowboy (9 Aug 2006)

dox,

for the love of all that is holy, just stop posting! You're arguing with a cop, two prison guards, and a couple of security types, and making yourself appear very foolish. Just stop. Its' sad to watch.


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## Michael OLeary (9 Aug 2006)

Dox said:
			
		

> I'm sure my sister who has now been of work for a month because a suspect broke her arm only to be released from custody the next day and one of my co-workers that suffered multiple Broken bones after being jumped while doing everything exactly the way he was required to do it thought that they had planned everything out as best they could.



Would having a baton prevented either of these incidents?  Or just given the assailants something else to beat your sister and co-worker with?

The people you seem to be arguing with are just looking for clear context and justification.


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## the 48th regulator (9 Aug 2006)

> Thanks But I'm actually a Trained and Licensed Private Investgator



You see!!

I knew thre was going to be the old 'AHAA I AM . . . ." totally reminicent of Scooby Doo...

dileas

tess


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## Dox (9 Aug 2006)

Actually I was stating my opinion not arguing but that's fine I see that if one doesn't follow the crowd here they are immediately some kind of fool. Please delete my Profile Thanks. and good luck .


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## paracowboy (10 Aug 2006)

okay.


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## The_Falcon (10 Aug 2006)

Dox, what makes you think a baton is going to help you when the perp doesn't react to pain, or worse when there are multiple attackers or armed themselves?  You can't be properly trained to use a baton properly or effectively unless you have had YEARS of training.  Anything less than that will be useless, and you will find yourself getting your butt kicked and most likely disarmed.  How do I know, cause it happened to me, it was the scariest experience I have ever had in my life, and I learned the hard way not to put to much faith in a baton.  I have gone over the situation in my head numerous times, and I have come to the conclusion, I was screwed from the get go.  But I learned from then on to pick and choose my battles, and when appropriate disenage and get back up. I have never worked as an LPO, but I know several people who do, each of them knows that going after certain people in certain areas of Toronto by themselves (read between the lines) is just not worth it due to the risks involved in attempting to apprehend a person who is very likely armed/has buddies outside over less than $100 worth of stolen merchendise.

Dang posted to late.


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## the 48th regulator (10 Aug 2006)

Brother,

He is gone, as per his request...

dileas

tess


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## The_Falcon (10 Aug 2006)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Brother,
> 
> He is gone, as per his request...
> 
> ...



Yeah, happened while I was typing my reply. But I will leave my post for others with his mindset.


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## rz350 (10 Aug 2006)

If your working plainclothes LPO doing arrests with no back up, please please please find a new employer. When ever I end up on LPO (in uniform mind you) we always swarm in at least 4 people to perform arrests. With radio security desk, who can call police, and more LPO/SO.

For the love of all things holy, do not arrest alone!

That being said. I would support batons for private LPO/SO with gov't mandated training. Then again, I would really love a regulation saying that SO and LPO have to work in teams, but that would cost too much and sink the sector.


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## The_Falcon (10 Aug 2006)

rz350 said:
			
		

> That being said. I would support batons for private LPO/SO with gov't mandated training. Then again, I would really love a regulation saying that SO and LPO have to work in teams, but that would cost too much and sink the sector.



Government training is mandated for contract security who carry batons now (the new regs will cover inhouse/bouncers), in Ontario.  The problem is in order for a person to be truly effective with a baton, you need to spend years training with it. A two day/one week/two week etc course isn't going to cut it.  Now I am not saying security should not have one, in some places it is definetly recommened.  But from personal experience some people become overly reliant on a baton, to their detriment (they either used it and it didn't work, which is what happened to me and others I know, or they used it when it wasn't appropriate and found themselves looking at assualt charges).  As it stands I don't think there is one easy solution.


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## rz350 (10 Aug 2006)

I would say ongoing training. Maybe 3-4 day course, then a refresher/additional training once a month?

Relying any one tool is a bad idea. One should always be ready, from making sure you have an escape route, to verbal commands, to hand to hand fighting, to batons, etc. You should know how to use every tool, and not depend on any one, but see each as option for a situation.


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## zipperhead_cop (10 Aug 2006)

Well, hopefully Dox decided to lurk here and still pick up some info.  If you do read this, understand that the LEO's that you were taking umbrage with were not being condescending, we were looking out for your well being.  Nobody should be eager to have a weapon in order to be able to get into harrier situations and think they will extricate themselves.  Where drugs are concerned, if the bad guy doesn't feel pain, then it doesn't matter if you have your metal stick or hot sauce.  
As far as getting jumped outside of a store, that is just nuts.  If you are alone and you say to a guy "you are under arrest for..." and the guy does anything other than say "Jolly good, right-o.  It's off to the office, then?"  let him go.  WE DON'T DO ARRESTS ALONE IF WE CAN HELP IT!!  EVER!! You always go with the plus one rule:  whatever you know or see, assume there is one more.  One bad guy to arrest?  Where is his buddy?  
As for Dox's comments on not being able to arrest until they leave the store, that is wrong.  That may be a policy, but if you depackage an item and conceal it on your person, you are already committing the offence.  It sews it up nicely to pin them outside, but it isn't required.  
I don't know why anyone thinks it takes a heap of training with the baton.  It is pretty basic to use.  Raise arm, strike target.  Repeat as needed.  Of course there is more to it than that, but you get the idea.  If you are going to spend years of training at something, take Aikido or Ju Jitsu.  Then you probably won't use the baton except for helping people push the door unlock button in their car when the window is down a crack (my most frequent deployment).  
"Delete my profile"  ??? Who was that supposed to hurt?   :


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## The_Falcon (10 Aug 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> *I don't know why anyone thinks it takes a heap of training with the baton*.  It is pretty basic to use.  Raise arm, strike target.  Repeat as needed.



This came from the person who trained myself and pretty much everyone else at the company I worked for.  His credentials spoke for themselves,  40 odd years of Judo, 20 something years on TPS (Retired as a S/Sgt I believe), DT instructor at OPC and C.O. Bick.  Basically he tried showing us other methods of employing a baton aside from just using it as a bludgeoning instrument, because just hitting someone doesnt always work.  And that if we took that extra step to do additional training, it could be a much more effective tool. He wasn't particularly fond of the way most officers were trained to use batons [flick and strike] (he even said that he did not like ASPs too much, and preferred the straight stick). Now I am not putting his name here (cause I can't spell it), but he is a Dutch guy, which should make it fairly easy to figure out who I am talking about.


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## Screw (10 Aug 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Well, hopefully Dox decided to lurk here and still pick up some info.  If you do read this, understand that the LEO's that you were taking umbrage with were not being condescending, we were looking out for your well being.  Nobody should be eager to have a weapon in order to be able to get into harrier situations and think they will extricate themselves.  Where drugs are concerned, if the bad guy doesn't feel pain, then it doesn't matter if you have your metal stick or hot sauce.
> As far as getting jumped outside of a store, that is just nuts.  If you are alone and you say to a guy "you are under arrest for..." and the guy does anything other than say "Jolly good, right-o.  It's off to the office, then?"  let him go.  WE DON'T DO ARRESTS ALONE IF WE CAN HELP IT!!  EVER!! You always go with the plus one rule:  whatever you know or see, assume there is one more.  One bad guy to arrest?  Where is his buddy?
> As for Dox's comments on not being able to arrest until they leave the store, that is wrong.  That may be a policy, but if you depackage an item and conceal it on your person, you are already committing the offence.  It sews it up nicely to pin them outside, but it isn't required.
> I don't know why anyone thinks it takes a heap of training with the baton.  It is pretty basic to use.  Raise arm, strike target.  Repeat as needed.  Of course there is more to it than that, but you get the idea.  If you are going to spend years of training at something, take Aikido or Ju Jitsu.  Then you probably won't use the baton except for helping people push the door unlock button in their car when the window is down a crack (my most frequent deployment).
> "Delete my profile"  ??? Who was that supposed to hurt?   :



Thats good stuff Zip. Its important to lose the "if I dont arrest now- i'll lose face attitude." Part of the reason we win is because we have the luxery of planning. This may seem crazy but it seems like the security industry, in most cases,IMHO feel that we in the law enforcement community would think less of them if they played safe. When in reality its the exact opposite.

Screw


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## portcullisguy (11 Aug 2006)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> This came from the person who trained myself and pretty much everyone else at the company I worked for.  His credentials spoke for themselves,  40 odd years of Judo, 20 something years on TPS (Retired as a S/Sgt I believe), DT instructor at OPC and C.O. Bick.  Basically he tried showing us other methods of employing a baton aside from just using it as a bludgeoning instrument, because just hitting someone doesnt always work.  And that if we took that extra step to do additional training, it could be a much more effective tool. He wasn't particularly fond of the way most officers were trained to use batons [flick and strike] (he even said that he did not like ASPs too much, and preferred the straight stick). Now I am not putting his name here (cause I can't spell it), but he is a Dutch guy, which should make it fairly easy to figure out who I am talking about.



He retired but not sure he made Staff Sgt when he did.  But yes, I can confirm all that.  Ol' Jan knew his stuff, and he is one guy I would never wanna mess with.

Baton training was 2 days at the time I did it, and we used straight sticks.  For kicks, one lunch break we did some sparring with the boxing gloves.  He was tapping my nose repeatedly, just to let me know he coulda drove through me any time he wanted.  Way too fast for me.  And I was 22 at the time.

He very nearly got into a bit of hot water one day when a student challenged his theory on defending against a knife (for the record, he said to forget about getting involved with anyone with a knife, if you are working security).  Well one recruit, who thought he knew a thing or two about knife defense, explains to the good Sgt that he doesn't know what he's talking about, blah blah, he can defend against a knife cuz someone showe dhim how, blah blah.... Well a demonstration ensued.  With a real knife.  It slipped and cut the kid on the forearm, and he bled like a stuck pig.  Now, I don't remember who was showing who what, but the kid quit the company the next day (after a trip to the hospital).


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## The_Falcon (11 Aug 2006)

portcullisguy said:
			
		

> He retired but not sure he made Staff Sgt when he did.  But yes, I can confirm all that.  Ol' Jan knew his stuff, and he is one guy I would never wanna mess with.
> 
> Baton training was 2 days at the time I did it, and we used straight sticks.  For kicks, one lunch break we did some sparring with the boxing gloves.  He was tapping my nose repeatedly, just to let me know he coulda drove through me any time he wanted.  Way too fast for me.  And I was 22 at the time.
> 
> He very nearly got into a bit of hot water one day when a student challenged his theory on defending against a knife (for the record, he said to forget about getting involved with anyone with a knife, if you are working security).  Well one recruit, who thought he knew a thing or two about knife defense, explains to the good Sgt that he doesn't know what he's talking about, blah blah, he can defend against a knife cuz someone showe dhim how, blah blah.... Well a demonstration ensued.  With a real knife.  It slipped and cut the kid on the forearm, and he bled like a stuck pig.  Now, I don't remember who was showing who what, but the kid quit the company the next day (after a trip to the hospital).



Baton Training was a rather unpleasant two day for me as well.  And I remember that story, cept it wasn't a new employee it was the bodyguard of a high profile (read mobster) Russain hiding out in T.O., the company got the contract to do security at the place, and the high profile guy wanted his bodyguards to learn about how to do things legally in Canada.  The bodyguard was ex-army and bragged about his knife training (not realizing you never ever brag about your "training" in front of Jan, cause he will make you put your money were your mouth is), and when Jan pulled out the rubber training knives, dude said nope, he would only use real knives. So Jan obliged him, and the knife didn't so much as "slip" as Jan just didn't want to "really" hurt the guy, only teach him a lesson.  This is the version I got from Jan himself, in anycase the guy could be in walker and I would still keep my distance from him.


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## portcullisguy (14 Aug 2006)

Sounds like Jan embellished a bit for the later generations, but yes basically that is the gist of it.  The kid was new to I-garde.

The Russian thing was a whole other story that happened before I got there, and allegedly involved Igarde guys tooled up with gats brought in via diplomatic packages to a wealthy ex-KGB living in the Bridle Path area.  But such is the stuff of lore & legend, and completely unreliable and unconfirmable.

Ah, the good ol' days.


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