# North American Refining Capacity - Eggs All In One Basket?



## TCBF (13 Sep 2008)

- Everytime a hurricane whomps the gulf coast, the price of gas goes nuts.  My solution: build that planned Alberta crude pipeline to Superior Wisconsin and then build an extension to Thunder Bay.  Build a MODERN refinery in Thunder Bay.  

No hurricanes (only Hurricanes ever seen in Thunder Bay were built by Canada Car in WW2).
Lots of room.
Good port access.
Good location.
Stable workforce.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Sep 2008)

Hell, why not just whack up a few in northern Alberta?  We're already the red headed step child for daring to have an energy industry, might as well go whole hog.


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## TCBF (13 Sep 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Hell, why not just whack up a few in northern Alberta?  We're already the red headed step child for daring to have an energy industry, might as well go whole hog.



-Tens of billions of dollars of projects on the books and no workers to build them here in Alberta, is my thinking.  Companies are so desperate for workers here that even the chronic drug test failers remain more or less fully employed, if not quite sentient on the jobsite.

- Thunder Bay: cheaper to build - cheaper to man.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Sep 2008)

True enough, I'm just not ready to share our oily goodness with Ontario, goes all the way back to the auto industry boom times....  I'm kidding, by the way, all you Ontarioids.


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## TCBF (13 Sep 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> True enough, I'm just not ready to share our oily goodness with Ontario, goes all the way back to the auto industry boom times....  I'm kidding, by the way, all you Ontarioids.



- Well, we are starting to increase the amount of crude going south - something previous premiers were dead set against.  So, since a new pipeline is being built to move Alberta crude into the Duluth/Superior area anyway, we might as well throw a 200 mile hose along the NW shore of Lake Superior and put some of those layabouts in Thunder Bay back to work!

 ;D


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## tomahawk6 (13 Sep 2008)

A refinery in Thunder Bay would sure be a godsend for the US. The US could also use refining capacity in the upper midwest.


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## George Wallace (13 Sep 2008)

Now, this is one thing I don't understand.  We don't have all our eggs in one basket.  We have our own Oil Reserves in the West and off Newfoundland.  We are exporting crude to the US.  In the Maritimes, the Irvings are bringing crude in from Venezuela.  It seems really odd that the Hurricane Season in the Gulf should cause such drastic change in our prices at the pumps.  The Oil Companies must have known about hurricanes   : and built their rigs accordingly.  They know when Hurricane Season is, so with a little planning they can gear up production and storage prior to it, and close down their rigs, with no affect to  prices.  Poor P & P on their part.

We consumers all know, it is a fraud and excuse for them to use a minor set back due to weather to jack up their prices, inching them up on a regular basis.  It is all for PROFIT.


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## George Wallace (13 Sep 2008)

When I grew up in Moose Jaw, there were two Oil Refineries in town, BA and Husky.  The Husky refinery was closed and is no longer on the map.  The BA (BP) site is still there, but not producing.

The Oil Companies have planned this poorly.  They thought to cut costs in refining, by building their large, centralized, mega refineries.  Unfortunately, some of those are in locations susceptible to "Natural Occurrences".

Is there a conspiracy on the part of the Oil Companies?  Perhaps there is (quote from that article):



> "Clearly, there's something wrong with the state of competition in the gasoline industry in Canada,"
> 
> McTeague said refineries have lowered production as the price of oil has declined in the past seven weeks.
> 
> ...


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## Rodahn (13 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> When I grew up in Moose Jaw, there were two Oil Refineries in town, BA and Husky.  The Husky refinery was closed and is no longer on the map.  The BA (BP) site is still there, but not producing.
> 
> The Oil Companies have planned this poorly.  They thought to cut costs in refining, by building their large, centralized, mega refineries.  Unfortunately, some of those are in locations susceptible to "Natural Occurrences".
> 
> Is there a conspiracy on the part of the Oil Companies?  Perhaps there is (quote from that article):



Nope, no gouging or collusion there.... :


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## Snafu-Bar (13 Sep 2008)

Petro Canada had a working refinery in Mississaga, it's still there but it's no longer operational for whatever reason. We already have the means and capability, we just don't have a government willing to drive the hammer into the nail.  

Cheers


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## Kirkhill (13 Sep 2008)

> ...In 1979, a train carrying propane derailed in Mississauga, causing a series of BLEVE explosions and sending train cars flying off the track. It prompted the evacuation of 200,000 people. At the time, it was the largest peacetime evacuation ever in Canada. No one was killed.


 The Globe and Mail  

And more recently.....



> Residents 'Very Lucky' After Massive Explosion At Propane Facility Sparks Huge Evacuation



CityNews

It isn't just "the economy of scale " that has driven us to this situation.  It is also legitimate public safety concerns (many small plants are harder to regulate than one big plant) but also, good old fashioned NIMBY - Not In My Back Yard.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Sep 2008)

Again, 270 quadradillion square kilometers of SFA out here in northern Alberta, and as I said earlier, everyone already thinks we're the environmental equivalent of Stalin after a six day bender.  Might as well make some money at it.


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## Retired AF Guy (14 Sep 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Everytime a hurricane whomps the gulf coast, the price of gas goes nuts.  My solution: build that planned Alberta crude pipeline to Superior Wisconsin and then build an extension to Thunder Bay.  Build a MODERN refinery in Thunder Bay.



From the U.S. govt Dept. of Energy website on Canadian energy:

_Refining
OGJ (Oil and Gas Journal)  reported that Canada had 1.97 million bbl/d of crude oil refining capacity in January 2008. While Alberta contains most of Canada’s crude oil production, *a large portion of its refining capacity resides in the more-populated eastern part of the country*. Alberta has four refineries, with total capacity of 437,400 bbl/d, whereas Ontario and Quebec have a combined 919,600 bbl/d of refining capacity. According to Natural Resources Canada, the largest single refinery in the country is Irving Oil’s 280,000 bbl/d St. John plant in New Brunswick.   

In January 2007, Irving Oil initiated the environmental review process for the construction of the 300,000 bbl/d Eider Rock refinery in Saint John, New Brunswick. The facility would occupy land near the company’s existing refinery and under-construction LNG terminal (see Natural Gas section for more information). The project would cost an estimated $7 billion and supply both the domestic market and potential exports to Boston and New York. If completed, the facility would be the first grassroots refinery in Canada in the last 20 years. _ My emphasis.

The full report can be found here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Canada/Full.html


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Sep 2008)

Actually build 2 refinery's for now, one in Alberta and one in Thunder bay, plan on building a new one in BC in about 10 years.


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## a_majoor (15 Sep 2008)

As noted, there is a lot of NIMBY when it comes to heavy industry like refineries, and cumbersome regulations also have stalled the construction of new refineries in the US for the last 30 years. (Is it a coincidence that no new nuclear reactors have been built during the same time frame?).

A possible mid term solution is the use of algae or microbes to convert agricultural waste into oil directly. Some companies like LS9 believe their process can produce hydrocarbon fuels that can go directly to the pump, eliminating refining altogether. Converting garbage to syngas and then running the gas through the F-T process can also produce pump ready fuel, Ottawa has a pilot plant now.

Regardless of how it is done, there will be an industrial process involved, and I am sure there will always be people who complain if a plant is anywhere near where they live. (Strange how they do not protest about being able to buy the end product, though?)


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## George Wallace (15 Sep 2008)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Regardless of how it is done, there will be an industrial process involved, and I am sure there will always be people who complain if a plant is anywhere near where they live. (Strange how they do not protest about being able to buy the end product, though?)



This is the problem.  Too many people so greedy that they continually stop progress by using the "Not in My Backyard" ploy.  They would rather have pollution in the city caused by traffic jams, than build better roads to handle the traffic.  They would rather suffer through "Brown Outs" in scorching summer temperatures, seeing people die of the heat, than permit a Power Generation Plant of any type; Coal Fired, Nuclear, and even Wind Generators, "in their backyard".  These people ought to be forcibly removed from their homes and deported to Mennonite settlements.


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## Colin Parkinson (15 Sep 2008)

My sister works for Chevorn, she went to a talk in the US from the guy who had the job of fixing the platforms after katrina, it had damged 437 platforms and the job was going to take 10 years.


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## Redeye (15 Sep 2008)

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Petro Canada had a working refinery in Mississaga, it's still there but it's no longer operational for whatever reason. We already have the means and capability, we just don't have a government willing to drive the hammer into the nail.
> 
> Cheers



I'm pretty sure that the Clarkson refinery complex doesn't produce gasoline, or at least it didn't when I was there - only lubricants and diesel fuel and lower order distillates.  Their refinery in Bronte did, but when they realized how much it would cost to upgrade that refinery to meet new sulphur content standards for gasolines they sold the whole thing lock, stock and barrel to a Pakistani outfit that loaded it onto ships and rebuilt it as the Indus Refinery in Pakistan.

If the Irvings go ahead with Elder Rock it will be the first refinery built in North America in 20 years.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Sep 2008)

<minor hijack>



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> - Well, we are starting to increase the amount of crude going south - something previous premiers were dead set against.  So, since a new pipeline is being built to move Alberta crude into the Duluth/Superior area anyway, we might as well throw a 200 mile hose along the NW shore of Lake Superior and put some of those layabouts in Thunder Bay back to work!



The only problem:  does it go to Fort William, or Port Arthur?1   ;D



1 - Thunder Bay used to be two cities - Fort William and Port Arthur - before being amalgamated in 1970.  Both towns were viciously competitive, mostly against each other.  Like the "kitchen table hatred" that probably still hasn't disappeared in the former Yugoslavia, there remains an element of parochial "us vs. them" tension between the former communities.

</minor hijack>


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## foresterab (16 Sep 2008)

Well..you could always put it in the innercity area...

And they still fight over what part of the city you live in...some things won't change I guess.


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## TCBF (16 Sep 2008)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> <minor hijack>
> 
> The only problem:  does it go to Fort William, or Port Arthur?1   ;D
> 
> ...



- LONG LIVE DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CURRENT RIVER!

 ;D


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## Rodahn (16 Sep 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - LONG LIVE DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CURRENT RIVER!
> 
> ;D



Oh jeez, another communist empire.... Are Soviet missiles going to be imported?????  >


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## TCBF (16 Sep 2008)

Rodahn said:
			
		

> Oh jeez, another communist empire.... Are Soviet missiles going to be imported?????  >



- They would have to be.  Thunder Bay City Council would not approve a missle factory unless all of the councillor's business interests got first dibs on the baksheesh, which is the reason the place is sliding into the 19th century.  "Better no one in Thunder Bay gets ahead than the wrong people in Thunder Bay get ahead." - that's their motto.


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## foresterab (16 Sep 2008)

We always used to joke it was Fort William vs Port Arthur, the Finns vs the Italians with the Polish referreeing, and nobody for 8 hours around to watch...

It wasn't quite that bad but some days you wondered.


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## The Bread Guy (16 Sep 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> - LONG LIVE DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CURRENT RIVER!
> 
> ;D



Splinter!!!!!!!!!!   ;D



			
				Rodahn said:
			
		

> Oh jeez, another communist empire.... Are Soviet missiles going to be imported?????  >



More like an Ossetia with greasy fries and coney dogs....


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## Greymatters (16 Sep 2008)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Splinter!!!!!!!!!!   ;D



Isnt that supposed to be "Splitter!" - or are you thinking of a different movie than I am?

_Minor hijack in progress..._


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## The Bread Guy (16 Sep 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Isnt that supposed to be "Splitter!" - or are you thinking of a different movie than I am?
> 
> _Minor hijack in progress..._



I'm thinking Monty Python's "People's Republic of Judea" sketch...


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