# National crisis: fentanyl & other super-opiate overdoses



## Chispa (16 Nov 2016)

3 people dead from suspected fentanyl overdoses at Winnipeg home: Like they say, drug abuse will sooner or later kill U.



Three people are dead from suspected fentanyl overdoses in a home in north Winnipeg.

"This is a tragic situation," said Winnipeg police spokesman Const. Rob Carver.

Police say they were called to check on someone in the home on Petriw Bay, in the Inkster Gardens neighbourhood.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/3-people-dead-from-suspected-fentanyl-overdoses-at-winnipeg-home/ar-AAkney4?li=AAggNb9


C.U.


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## Journeyman (16 Nov 2016)

So?   :dunno:


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## jollyjacktar (16 Nov 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So?   :dunno:



:ditto:


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Nov 2016)

Staggering when you thing that OD deaths in BC alone last year was almost double of the number of people killed with rifles in the whole of the US in the same time.


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## Inspir (16 Nov 2016)

The problem that we are seeing on the street with Fentalyn (and starting to become more common: Carfentanil) are people who are unknowingly consuming it as it is being mixed with other drugs such as cocaine, meth and in some cases mariguanna. It can literally take a dose the size of a speck of sand of Carfentanil to send you into respiratory arrest if you don't have a tolerance for it.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (16 Nov 2016)

Let's not overstate the case, Colin: Number of death from overdose in BC, for Jan1, 2016 to Sept 30, 2016, according to the BC coroner site: 555.

Number of death by shooting in the USA in 2015: 13,618 according to "Gun Violence Archive USA".

I am willing to believe that there are errors in the numbers from both sites, but not to the extent you would need to support your position.  :nod:


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## Colin Parkinson (16 Nov 2016)

Plus we have had around 3 first responders have partial OD from coming into contact with it unknowingly.

OBGD, As you will note I said "death by rifle(all types including assault rifles" from either CDC or FBI as I recall.


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## mariomike (16 Nov 2016)

Inspir said:
			
		

> The problem that we are seeing on the street with Fentalyn (and starting to become more common: Carfentanil) are people who are unknowingly consuming it as it is being mixed with other drugs such as cocaine, meth and in some cases mariguanna. It can literally take a dose the size of a speck of sand of Carfentanil to send you into respiratory arrest if you don't have a tolerance for it.



Blue as a smurf.


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## Journeyman (16 Nov 2016)

If the OP wanted to note _any_  sort of relevance for a military-related site, he could have mentioned that the Russians used aerosol opioids to take out the Chechen terrorists during the 2002 Moscow theater crisis.  Clutching at straws, but still better than tossing "3 Winnipeg druggies OD'd" out there.


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## mariomike (16 Nov 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> If the OP wanted to note _any_  sort of relevance for a military-related site, he could have mentioned that the Russians used aerosol opioids to take out the Chechen terrorists during the 2002 Moscow theater crisis.  Clutching at straws, but still better than tossing "3 Winnipeg druggies OD'd" out there.



Maybe that's why the OP posted in Radio Chatter: "Off topic discussions not relating to the Canadian Army."


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## Journeyman (16 Nov 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Maybe that's why the OP posted in Radio Chatter: "Off topic discussions not relating to the Canadian Army."


Then perhaps adding another word or two to explain why it was posted would have proven beneficial......


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## Chispa (16 Nov 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Then perhaps adding another word or two to explain why it was posted would have proven beneficial......



Fair question, why the OP posted without elaborating, a few words would have proven beneficial; figured many here knew, it’s really old news. While going off-line saw the newsflash trending, therefore posted on the fly, with one eye watering, / shut, note the good eye was irritated. You are looking for more substance; the numbers, considering population are of some concern: Drug related deaths in Canada per year have reached 47,000 and that number is growing. https://canadiancentreforaddictions.org/drug-related-deaths-in-canada/

*PDF Deaths Involving Fentanyl in Canada, 2009–2014..*
http://www.ccsa.ca/Resource%20Library/CCSA-CCENDU-Fentanyl-Deaths-Canada-Bulletin-2015-en.pdf


*Opioid overdose deaths continue to rise in Canada despite removal of OxyContin.*

Opioid overdose deaths continue to rise across Canada, forcing federal and provincial authorities to respond to this growing epidemic.

In Ontario alone, these drugs have killed nearly 2,500 people between 2011 and 2014. “Right now, the one that we’re seeing the greatest increase in is the use of Fentanyl,” said Minister of Health Jane Philpott. “That’s a big concern for us.” This heightened concern comes after the 2012 removal of OxyContin from the Ontario Drug Plan, a move many believed would reduce the amount of opioid overdose deaths in the province.

http://www.citynews.ca/2016/03/07/opioid-overdose-deaths-continue-to-rise-in-canada-despite-removal-of-oxycontin/


*13 Canadians hospitalized a day due to opioid overdose, report finds.*

Misha Gajewski, CTVNews.ca Published Wednesday, November 16, 2016 10:51AM EST Last Updated Wednesday, November 16, 2016 12:20PM EST

Adding evidence to the mounting public health crisis, an analysis showed that 13 people were hospitalized every day in Canada between 2014 and 2015 because of opioid poisoning.

Seniors accounted for a quarter of hospitalized overdoses.

The report found that in 2014-2015 4,779 people across Canada – or 13 a day on average – were hospitalized or taken to the emergency department because of an opioid overdose.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/13-canadians-hospitalized-a-day-due-to-opioid-overdose-report-finds-1.3163256


Hey, It’s like Twitter, CNN, I just recycled the news and passed it on, that’s what Radio Chatter is about; n’est-ce pas?


C.U.


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## Retired AF Guy (16 Nov 2016)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Let's not overstate the case, Colin: Number of death from overdose in BC, for Jan1, 2016 to Sept 30, 2016, according to the BC coroner site: 555.
> 
> Number of death by shooting in the USA in 2015: 13,618 according to "Gun Violence Archive USA".



Actually, what Colin said was "_people killed with rifles_" not all types of shootings.


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## brihard (16 Nov 2016)

I lost a good buddy from my regiment and tour a year back to this stuff. He'd gone SOFCOM after deployment, medically released with PTSD, we thought he was doing alright, then boom, went down hard one morning with an overdose and died in hospital. This stuff is so deadly in great part due to other street drugs being laced with it, and people have no idea what they're taking.


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## Jarnhamar (16 Nov 2016)

More reason why the CAF should drug test members and not that BS blind drug test crap.


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## ballz (17 Nov 2016)

More reason why narcotics should be legal.... We spend an unfathomable amount of money arresting and imprisoning harmless people as part of a (failing) drug war that causes the types of things mentioned below...



			
				Inspir said:
			
		

> The problem that we are seeing on the street with Fentalyn (and starting to become more common: Carfentanil) are people who are unknowingly consuming it as it is being mixed with other drugs such as cocaine, meth and in some cases mariguanna. It can literally take a dose the size of a speck of sand of Carfentanil to send you into respiratory arrest if you don't have a tolerance for it.


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## brihard (17 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> More reason why narcotics should be legal.... We spend an unfathomable amount of money arresting and imprisoning harmless people as part of a (failing) drug war that causes the types of things mentioned below...



That's a tremendously flawed viewpoint. There's nothing 'harmless' about the people distributing drugs like Fentanyl, Cocaine, Heroin, etc. Presupposing we took an 'everything is legal til proven otherwise' start point, these are substances that would never pass tests for human consumption outside of supervised clinical settings. There isn't a way to safely, responsibly abuse these drugs outside of a clinically supervised thereapeutic setting. They are *designed* to be as addictive as possible, and to affect people in ways completely incompatible with normal responsible functioning as members of society. Even in a clinical setting many end up hooked and dependent and will commit crimes to pay for addictions. It even happens with things that can be purchased legally over the counter, such as painkillers with codeine.

Some substances - marijuana jumps to the top of the list - are currently illegal and shouldn't be when all factors are reasonably balanced. As I sit here sipping a rum and coke, I see no reason why there ought to be a legal difference between myself, the guy outside having a smoke, or the guy smoking or vaping a bit of weed. I've practically never seen someone become violent when just using marijuana alcohol's another story. Commercial tobacco is much more dangerous from a public health standpoint. If we wiped the slate and went for a fresh start from first principles, tobacco as it's currently packaged and sold in cigarettes probably wouldn't make the cut, or if it did the taxes would be tremendous.

But for the hard synthetic drugs, again wit the exception of careful clinically supervised painkillers (still overprescribed), the redeeming qualities are not there sufficient to overcome the public health concerns. No government could in good conscience legalize the peddling of methamphetamine or fentanyl. These drugs are *inherently* harmful, both to the user, and to the communities that addicts prey on.

Addiction is primarily a health issue, though with some criminal fallout. Trafficking, however is inherently predatory, almost inevitably violent, and is inherently harmful to the society it exists within, without any redeeming qualities whatsoever. I am not a tough on crime' tye, but I beleive we shoul dbe much more punitive on higher level drug trafficking, and much more belligerent about going after assets so it doesn't pay. We need to fight demand as much as possible with a sensible public ealth approach to addiction, and we need as much as possible to fight the attractiveness of dealing. Some of this, certainly, has to come with offering viable economic alternatives. Jobs and education have got to be there and we need to try to catch more of these kids earlier before they get too far into that. 

Just because an effort against something has not resulted in victory, does not mean that the optimal idea is to give up and to concede defeat to something terrible. We haven't given up on fighting spousal abuse or rape, even though thsoe are perennial issues that we will never make go away. We don't stop trying jsut because there's always that next person who's gonna do something heinous.


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## ModlrMike (17 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> More reason why narcotics should be legal.... We spend an unfathomable amount of money arresting and imprisoning harmless people as part of a (failing) drug war that causes the types of things mentioned below...



I work in an ER, and that is the worst idea possible. You would not believe the number of overdoses we see on prescription medication. If currently illicit drugs were legal, there is absolutely no evidence things would get better, but plenty evidence that they would get worse. As dangerous as prescription drugs are, the illicit ones are far worse.


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## ballz (17 Nov 2016)

Brihard said:
			
		

> That's a tremendously flawed viewpoint. There's nothing 'harmless' about the people distributing drugs like Fentanyl, Cocaine, Heroin, etc. Presupposing we took an 'everything is legal til proven otherwise' start point, these are substances that would never pass tests for human consumption outside of supervised clinical settings. There isn't a way to safely, responsibly abuse these drugs outside of a clinically supervised thereapeutic setting. They are *designed* to be as addictive as possible, and to affect people in ways completely incompatible with normal responsible functioning as members of society. Even in a clinical setting many end up hooked and dependent and will commit crimes to pay for addictions. It even happens with things that can be purchased legally over the counter, such as painkillers with codeine.
> 
> Some substances - marijuana jumps to the top of the list - are currently illegal and shouldn't be when all factors are reasonably balanced. As I sit here sipping a rum and coke, I see no reason why there ought to be a legal difference between myself, the guy outside having a smoke, or the guy smoking or vaping a bit of weed. I've practically never seen someone become violent when just using marijuana alcohol's another story. Commercial tobacco is much more dangerous from a public health standpoint. If we wiped the slate and went for a fresh start from first principles, tobacco as it's currently packaged and sold in cigarettes probably wouldn't make the cut, or if it did the taxes would be tremendous.
> 
> ...



Your post outlines all of the reasons it should be legal. All of the things you point out as reasons that narcotics shouldn't be legal are a *result* of narcotics being illegal. Do you think all of the messed up drugs that you are talking about would even exist if the government hadn't stopped law-abiding citizens from private exchange? Do you think cocaine would be laced with fentanyl if you could go buy it at a storefront where someone's livelihood and all his assets are on the line? Cocaine-use is ancient, literally ancient... The US government made it illegal in 1914, the price skyrocketed as there was now a black market being run by thugs, and within 50 years we had crack...

Do you think someone who has done no harm to any other human being should be imprisoned and have their life ruined? You mention drug traffickers, but we lock people up simply for *possessing* drugs. You can't call something a health problem and then claim to treat people for it by throwing them in jail and actually making the health problem worse. I also think its immoral to lock someone up for consenting adults participating in private exchange, but let's just talk about mere possession for now.

*A different point which I don't wish to explore tonight, but the idea that certain recreational drug use is okay but others deserve to thrown in jail for it is logically inconsistent and terrifying that you think its up to you to decide for others.



			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I work in an ER, and that is the worst idea possible. You would not believe the number of overdoses we see on prescription medication. If currently illicit drugs were legal, there is absolutely no evidence things would get better, but plenty evidence that they would get worse. As dangerous as prescription drugs are, the illicit ones are far worse.



You are both making an assumption that because it is illegal, less people are doing it and if it were legal more people would. I would like to see evidence of that. It's essentially the same old fear-mongering about firearms from the anti-gun lobby, that if we legalize more firearms law-abiding people are just going to go out and start shooting people on a whim. Hands up who would try heroin tomorrow if it was legalized?  :crickets:

However, there is evidence that things would get better despite your absolute assertion. Portugal decriminalized possession of all narcotics and contrary to what you both are so sure would happen, the results were fantastic. Drug-use has declined, drug-induced deaths have decreased, HIV rates among drug-users has gone down... and while its far from absolute proof, it does debunk this fear-mongering, and hopefully someday it will allow people to open their eyes and realize there may be better ways than using violence against people to control their behavior.


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## ballz (17 Nov 2016)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Just because an effort against something has not resulted in victory, does not mean that the optimal idea is to give up and to concede defeat to something terrible. We haven't given up on fighting spousal abuse or rape, even though thsoe are perennial issues that we will never make go away. We don't stop trying jsut because there's always that next person who's gonna do something heinous.



Who "conceded defeat to something terrible?" I'm offering more ways to win than any one, it seems. What's the definition of insane again?


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## Jarnhamar (17 Nov 2016)

[quote author=Brihard]
Some substances - marijuana jumps to the top of the list - are currently illegal and shouldn't be when all factors are reasonably balanced. As I sit here sipping a rum and coke, *I see no reason why there ought to be a legal difference between myself, the guy outside having a smoke, or the guy smoking or vaping a bit of weed.** I've practically never seen someone become violent when just using marijuana alcohol's another story.* Commercial tobacco is much more dangerous from a public health standpoint. If we wiped the slate and went for a fresh start from first principles, tobacco as it's currently packaged and sold in cigarettes probably wouldn't make the cut, or if it did the taxes would be tremendous.
[/quote]
I'm inclined to feel the same way when I think about pot vs alcohol (and being a Whiskey&Coke fan myself).

I came across this article randomly and thought it was pretty interesting and brings up a seldom discussed issue with pot (IMO).
I won't quote from the article because it's a bit of a tangent but it discusses sexual abuse among weed pickers out west. Some of it sounds pretty brutal.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/in-secretive-marijuana-industry-whispers-of-abuse_us_57cefd7ee4b0f831f705be3f


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## larry Strong (17 Nov 2016)

Inspir said:
			
		

> The problem that we are seeing on the street with Fentalyn (and starting to become more common: Carfentanil) are people who are unknowingly consuming it as it is being mixed with other drugs such as cocaine, meth and in some cases mariguanna. It can literally take a dose the size of a speck of sand of Carfentanil to send you into respiratory arrest if you don't have a tolerance for it.



I would have to disagree with that....the problem is it only takes 2mg of fentanyl to kill you. When the dealers mix it up there is no consistent measure of fentanyl in each dose.

The picture posted shows how much Heroin and Fentanyl is needed to overdose...... 

Having said that I am sure any other drugs mixed in wont help either.


Cheers
Larry


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## Journeyman (17 Nov 2016)

Thank you to those who have actually contributed substantive content.  Seriously.


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## Inspir (17 Nov 2016)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> I would have to disagree with that....the problem is it only takes 2mg of fentanyl to kill you. When the dealers mix it up there is no consistent measure of fentanyl in each dose.
> 
> The picture posted shows how much Heroin and Fentanyl is needed to overdose......
> 
> ...



I've seen this picture. But I was alluding to Carfentanil not Fentanyl.


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## larry Strong (17 Nov 2016)

Inspir said:
			
		

> I've seen this picture. But I was alluding to Carfentanil not Fentanyl.



That's 100 times more fatal the Fentanyl.....

Scary


Cheers
Larry


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## Oldgateboatdriver (17 Nov 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Plus we have had around 3 first responders have partial OD from coming into contact with it unknowingly.
> 
> OBGD, As you will note I said "death by rifle(all types including assault rifles" from either CDC or FBI as I recall.



Fair enough.

I looked them up: The last statistics from both the FBI and CDC are for 2014. 

The CDC does not distinguish by type of firearms. It tabulates deaths by firearms from state data only. And in 2014, the total death by firearms was 33,390 (to get the national figure, click on any of the states and it will give total national figures for comparison):

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

As for the FBI, it does distinguish by type, but only keep stats for murders, and in 2014, it tabulated 11,961 murders (so about a third of the death by firearms only), of which 8,124 were by firearms - including 248 by rifle and 1959 by undisclosed type of gun.

The FBI site does not permit copying of the URL, just input the following research terms in your browser: "FBI | US Murders by Weapon Type"

But it leads me to a last point: What is the point of selecting this specific figure for your post? What are you trying to prove? That the fentanyl crisis is that important, or that Americans prefer to use handguns to commit their murders or commit suicide?


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## OldSolduer (17 Nov 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> If the OP wanted to note _any_  sort of relevance for a military-related site, he could have mentioned that the Russians used aerosol opioids to take out the Chechen terrorists during the 2002 Moscow theater crisis.  Clutching at straws, but still better than tossing "3 Winnipeg druggies OD'd" out there.



Just a thought but perhaps the "pushers" need to be charged with murder - knowingly selling/giving someone a lethal substance....just a thought.


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## ModlrMike (17 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> Do you think someone who has done no harm to any other human being should be imprisoned and have their life ruined? You mention drug traffickers, but we lock people up simply for *possessing* drugs. You can't call something a health problem and then claim to treat people for it by throwing them in jail and actually making the health problem worse. I also think its immoral to lock someone up for consenting adults participating in private exchange, but let's just talk about mere possession for now.
> 
> *A different point which I don't wish to explore tonight, but the idea that certain recreational drug use is okay but others deserve to thrown in jail for it is logically inconsistent and terrifying that you think its up to you to decide for others.



This is the only point of your rebuttal that I will concede. I think it is an incredible waste of manpower and money to incarcerate folks for possession. Lock up the dealers. Yes, it's more work, but it's a better use of tax dollars IMHO as it ultimately benefits a greater number of people. The knock on effect might be a rise in the price of drugs, but that is equally one of the problems. If one accepts that cheap drugs + accessibility = increased use, then the reverse must be true as well.

In closing, I'm prepared to consider that perhaps greater use might not be a result of legalization, however I still think that we would see more fatal overdoses among those that serially overdose on prescription meds.


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## Chispa (17 Nov 2016)

Let us see; if you are high, angered, etc., while in possession of firearms on these drugs, considered somewhat problematic; you might intentionally go off the rails. 6 months ago nailed with Bell’s Palsy stg 5, still under its spell, although recovered ca 70%, the narcotics first prescribed were only for a short period, one for 15 days, other two for 30 days; and No refills. That stuff gives U uncontrollable highs, lows, easily irritated, angered, etc., not counting the hot sweats, and side affects.   

Heard without confirmation ca 2007 chatter, CF conducted incognito field studies on use of opioids by soldiers, concluding too many for an over extended period of time were prescribed. I’ve read recent US Army studies which are an eye opener.

Carfentanil is an S II Narcotic control substance, one of the top guns, while China considered one of the biggest exporters. 

*From the associated press on Carfentanil, published on: October 7, 2016: China's unregulated narcotic a chemical weapon.
By Erika Kinetz And Desmond Butler.*

*SHANGHAI —* For a few thousand dollars, Chinese companies offer to export a powerful chemical that has been killing unsuspecting drug users and is so lethal that it presents a potential terrorism threat, an Associated Press investigation has found. The AP identified 12 Chinese businesses that said they would export the chemical — a synthetic opioid known as carfentanil — to the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Belgium and Australia for as little as $2,750 a kilogram, no questions asked. Carfentanil burst into view this summer, the latest scourge in an epidemic of opioid abuse that has killed tens of thousands of people in the United States alone. Dealers have been cutting carfentanil and its weaker cousin, fentanyl, into heroin and other illicit drugs to boost profit margins. http://calgaryherald.com/news/world/carfentanil-chinas-unregulated-narcotic-a-chemical-weapon

*Chinese trade of deadly opioid carfentanil thrives at the cost of North American lives.
SHANGHAI – *Seizures of the deadly chemical carfentanil have exploded across the United States, with more than 400 cases documented in eight states since July alone, The Associated Press has found.

This fall, the drug also began to appear in Canada. It’s been seized in several provinces and last month health officials said the illicit opioid was linked to two deaths in Alberta.

*What is carfentanil and why is it easy to obtain?*
Fuelled by a thriving trade out of China, the weapons-grade chemical is suspected in hundreds of drug overdoses in the U.S. and Canada. An AP investigation last month showed how easily carfentanil can be purchased online from China.
http://globalnews.ca/news/3043678/chinese-trade-of-deadly-opioid-carfentanil-thrives-at-the-cost-of-north-american-lives/


*Warning: Opioid for elephants hittings Ohio.*

Beware of a new deadly drug, an analgesic used for elephants, which has been spotted in Greater Cincinnati: The Hamilton County Heroin Coalition warned Friday of the powerful opioid carfentanil, which has been identified in local supplies of heroin. The synthetic opioid is 100 times stronger than fentanyl, the analgesic blamed for increasing overdose deaths and 10,000 times stronger than morphine on the streets………..

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/07/15/warning-opioid-elephants-hitting-ohio-streets/87130300/


Military prevalence, Daesh, etc., uses opioids as energy boosters, etc.

*Millions of opioid painkillers destined for ISIS intercepted at Piraeus port*

An inspection at the Piraeus port's container terminal carried out by officers of the Greek Financial Crimes Squad’s narcotics unit and a team of US Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) agents led to the discovery of a container carrying 26 million Tramadol prescription opioid painkillers.

Reports suggested the container arrived at Pireaus on May 10 from India, while its final destination was a Libyan company allegedly tied to ISIS jihadists.

The container's cargo had been declared as towels and tablecloths. A similar container carrying opioid painkillers and destined to the same company in Libya was confiscated by authorities in Dubai last February.

According to reports, pain relievers such as Tramadol and Captagon, are broadly used by members of ISIS as energy boosters.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/209293/article/ekathimerini/news/millions-of-opioid-painkillers-destined-for-isis-intercepted-at-piraeus-port


P.S. Only post I can muster for today my allotted time in front of the screen is winding down....


C.U.


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## brihard (17 Nov 2016)

Not a lot of people in Canada are getting jail time for simple possession, and when they do it's not very much. What I HAVE seen on a number of occcasions is where possession for the purpose of trafficking charges will get knocked down to simple possession on a plea deal. I caught one guy with a quarter ounce of crack in two big chunks, wrapped in a single baggie. He'd gotten it that way for the cook, and was dealing it. Known drug dealer. Crown made a plea deal and he ate the straight possession charge rather than push PPT to trial. This happens a lot due to an overburdened court system. But we are not like some places in the states where police are gung ho to lay charges in simple possession cases. It happens, yes, but usually when it's one more charge to lay on top of an overnight festival of stupidity that ends in the back of a cop car, or where a possession charge is a means to control a prolific offender for the next little while. Typically the courts are not very punitive on simple possession. If I arrest a guy for beating his wife, *and* he has cocaine in his pocket, yes I'll lay the bonus charge. But usually

There was mention earlier of Portugal by ballz. Portugal is a good example of how to do things. They have decriminalized possession, but not legalized it. A whole host of sanctions can be applied depending on what fits the circumstances. Professional licensed can be revoked, other court ordered conditions can be imposed, treatment cn be mandated... But it's not punitive in intent, it's intended to make recreational drug use suck, and to route addicts to appropriate care. Note that trafficking is still completely criminalized and is prosecuted.

At no point in this thread have I suggested that a punitive approach to addicts and to simple 'personal use' possession is the right way to do things. I have pointed out the harms that these substances inherently cause due to the stupid and dangerous things people will do while on them and to get them. Ballz- you neatly skipped entirely the relevant point I made that these are not substances that would be allowed for marketing and consumption outside of clinical settings anyway. We would no more allow these to be sold uncontrolled than we would allow the bulk import of melamine-laced milk from China. The concept of legalizaton of 'hard'/synthetic drugs is a paper fiction that fails any real analysis. Decriminalize personal use possession, absolutely. Take a public health approach to users. But don't let up on those who are trafficking this deadly, toxic, addictive stuff, and deliberately getting people hooked on it. We don't need to allow or tolerate the illicit market in hard drugs just because it's a constant uphill battle.


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## Colin Parkinson (17 Nov 2016)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Fair enough.
> 
> I looked them up: The last statistics from both the FBI and CDC are for 2014.
> 
> ...



There was/is was much gnashing of teeth about the US having access to "assault rifles" in the US (and the same is currently being done here) and how bad that makes them. But clearly the threat of these drugs and other synthetics is far far more serious than perceived gun issue. I also don't see the same level of public shaming that goes on for smoking that should also be applied to recreational drugs. When was the last radio ad did you hear talking about the dangers or recreational drugs?


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## PMedMoe (17 Nov 2016)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Just a thought but perhaps the "pushers" need to be charged with murder - knowingly selling/giving someone a lethal substance....just a thought.



Devil's advocate here.  So by that same token, if someone sells someone a gun and they commit suicide or murder, should the seller be charged as an accessory?  (Yeah, I know, probably apples and oranges, but therein lies the slippery slope).

Legal or not, an addict is going to take what they can to get high, regardless of the risk.


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## ballz (17 Nov 2016)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Not a lot of people in Canada are getting jail time for simple possession, and when they do it's not very much. What I HAVE seen on a number of occcasions is where possession for the purpose of trafficking charges will get knocked down to simple possession on a plea deal. I caught one guy with a quarter ounce of crack in two big chunks, wrapped in a single baggie. He'd gotten it that way for the cook, and was dealing it. Known drug dealer. Crown made a plea deal and he ate the straight possession charge rather than push PPT to trial. This happens a lot due to an overburdened court system. But we are not like some places in the states where police are gung ho to lay charges in simple possession cases. It happens, yes, but usually when it's one more charge to lay on top of an overnight festival of stupidity that ends in the back of a cop car, or where a possession charge is a means to control a prolific offender for the next little while. Typically the courts are not very punitive on simple possession. If I arrest a guy for beating his wife, *and* he has cocaine in his pocket, yes I'll lay the bonus charge. But usually



I have never and never will concede that things that I don't believe should be illegal should remain illegal, just to make it easier for the police to put them away for the other things that they can't prove. I hear this argument from law enforcement a lot, and quite frankly, it is very face-palm worthy. "Well if possession wasn't a crime, we couldn't put the known traffickers away when we know they are trafficking but can't prove it!" Not that I think drug trafficking should be illegal either, but that argument for possession laws will never get support from me. We might as well make wearing shoes illegal, and then when the cops know someone is up to no good but can't prove it, they can just charge him for wearing shoes instead.



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Ballz- you neatly skipped entirely the relevant point I made that these are not substances that would be allowed for marketing and consumption outside of clinical settings anyway. We would no more allow these to be sold uncontrolled than we would allow the bulk import of melamine-laced milk from China. The concept of legalizaton of 'hard'/synthetic drugs is a paper fiction that fails any real analysis. Decriminalize personal use possession, absolutely. Take a public health approach to users. But don't let up on those who are trafficking this deadly, toxic, addictive stuff, and deliberately getting people hooked on it. We don't need to allow or tolerate the illicit market in hard drugs just because it's a constant uphill battle.



I am not skipping that. That is the problem I am speaking of. That we cannot fathom a world without the government trying (and failing) to solve these problems despite the fact that the government caused them. The government is the *reason* that "those who are trafficking this deadly, toxic, addictive stuff, and deliberately getting people hooked on it" actually have a successful business model.... in a free market, they wouldn't stand a chance.

Legalize it and then see how long that business model holds up... "I can go to this store front and buy marijuana or cocaine from a reputable person whom has a track record of selling clean products that nobody OD's on... or I can go buy it around the corner from that guy with his hood up that people bought from last week and now they're dead and he is up on legit charges of fraud / negligence causing death as is now plastered all over the news."

We _**created**_ the illicit market and as long as we think we're going to stop people from doing drugs through the use of violent coercion, we'll continue to have one.

Narcotics have been around since ancient times. Only in recent times has the government been so involved in stopping it, and more money and resources are now spent on fighting it than ever before.... However, more people die today from overdose than ever before.... Now I know correlation doesn't always mean causation, but come on.... there is a very clear logical path from narcotics being made illegal to what we have now where we have some of the most toxic substances to ever exist in the hands of some of the worst people finding victims around every corner.



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> There was mention earlier of Portugal by ballz. Portugal is a good example of how to do things. They have decriminalized possession, but not legalized it. A whole host of sanctions can be applied depending on what fits the circumstances. Professional licensed can be revoked, other court ordered conditions can be imposed, treatment cn be mandated... But it's not punitive in intent, it's intended to make recreational drug use suck, and to route addicts to appropriate care. Note that trafficking is still completely criminalized and is prosecuted.



Portugal is a good example of a step in the right direction, but a few more steps would help.



			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> This is the only point of your rebuttal that I will concede. I think it is an incredible waste of manpower and money to incarcerate folks for possession. Lock up the dealers. Yes, it's more work, but it's a better use of tax dollars IMHO as it ultimately benefits a greater number of people. The knock on effect might be a rise in the price of drugs, but that is equally one of the problems. If one accepts that cheap drugs + accessibility = increased use, then the reverse must be true as well.
> 
> In closing, I'm prepared to consider that perhaps greater use might not be a result of legalization, however I still think that we would see more fatal overdoses among those that serially overdose on prescription meds.



I think we would see a lot less.... I think you'd see an end to drugs being laced with other drugs, which seems to be the fentanyl issue... and I think you'd see an end of taking something like cocaine and turning it into crack, which was always a huge issue... and I think you'd see the end of things like meth labs where people are trying to create methamphetamines from chemicals under the kitchen sink due to how expensive cocaine is (it's expensive because its a black market).

In other words, while increased price of cocaine may mean less cocaine use... for those addicted, it doesn't mean using methamphetamines less, it just means finding cheaper substitutes or committing crimes to get the money, or both....


----------



## ballz (17 Nov 2016)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Devil's advocate here.  So by that same token, if someone sells someone a gun and they commit suicide or murder, should the seller be charged as an accessory?  (Yeah, I know, probably apples and oranges, but therein lies the slippery slope).
> 
> Legal or not, an addict is going to take what they can to get high, regardless of the risk.



I think the appropriate way to deal with someone that sells something but knows they are masking the truth about the item is to charge them with fraud and/or criminal negligence causing death if that's what is called for. If narcotics were legal you could probably have a legit crime to the effect of "causing death through fraudulent activity."

This would not be an issue with firearm dealers.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (17 Nov 2016)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Devil's advocate here.  So by that same token, if someone sells someone a gun and they commit suicide or murder, should the seller be charged as an accessory?  (Yeah, I know, probably apples and oranges, but therein lies the slippery slope).
> 
> Legal or not, an addict is going to take what they can to get high, regardless of the risk.



Not quite the same argument. If you wanted to argue it correctly, someone sells you a gun they know is broken and when you go to shoot it, the firearm blows up in your face due to the undisclosed defect. 

The gun shooting and killing someone isn't actually the sellers fault, technically the firearm is functioning properly (it is then the operators fault), just the same as if you were buying cocaine and you snorted it up and didn't die, in that case the drug is functioning properly (as opposed to the fentanyl laced drugs).


----------



## Colin Parkinson (17 Nov 2016)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Devil's advocate here.  So by that same token, if someone sells someone a gun and they commit suicide or murder, should the seller be charged as an accessory?  (Yeah, I know, probably apples and oranges, but therein lies the slippery slope).
> 
> Legal or not, an addict is going to take what they can to get high, regardless of the risk.



Addicts I can understand taking the risk, the couple near us that OD and died leaving behind a toddler were recreational users. There is is no real targeting of these recreational users that I am seeing and I suspect they likely make up a the more significant slice of the market.


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## Chispa (18 Nov 2016)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Devil's advocate here.  So by that same token, if someone sells someone a gun and they commit suicide or murder, should the seller be charged as an accessory?
> 
> Legal or not, an addict is going to take what they can to get high, regardless of the risk.




Ancient cultures around the world used drugs in battle too motivate troops or in religious ceremonies. The opium wars’ with Britannia’s incursion into China, with 80% of the population hooked, the “British Shop Keepers” black market flourished, while artefacts were stolen and sold in trade for opium, that’s not counting the British looting. Prevalent use of alcohol, light, heavy drugs during the Nam war by the US, and VC/NVA, although even pre French some of the Vietnamese population were opium addicts.  

True an addict especially on jazz = heroin; the first priority for junkie’s, is getting a hit whatever the risk, even robbing their parents, etc., as previously stated on this thread.

In the USA it depends on state, considering U have the gun show loop-whole, even in Canada any gun-show, online, with my FAC I can buy or sell restricted or non privately. I sell my rifle, buyer shows his FAC both take info, few days latter goes all wacko, and I’m dragged through court for selling, highly likely, no law in Canada. However, criminal charges would apply if I sold a firearm, knowing a crime would be committed with it or individuals without a FAC.

In the US depending on state, you need a driver’s licence, background check when purchasing from registered gun dealers. Say seller receives a green light; buyer few days later kills many, why would it be the seller’s responsibility, in fact he did he’s due diligence as required by law?  


C.U.


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## PMedMoe (18 Nov 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Addicts I can understand taking the risk, the couple near us that OD and died leaving behind a toddler were recreational users. There is is no real targeting of these recreational users that I am seeing and I suspect they likely make up a the more significant slice of the market.



"Recreational" users of opiates?  Sorry...they're still addicts, IMO.


----------



## McG (18 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> However, there is evidence that ...


So, you can cite a reputable source?


----------



## Chispa (18 Nov 2016)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> "Recreational" users of opiates?  Sorry...they're still addicts, IMO.



Once you've reached that point, recreational use is highly likely.......



C.U.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Nov 2016)

The fentanyl is in all sorts of drugs, even on the pot. Look at "rave drugs" people take them without a clue what they are. I have known lots of people that used various drugs and don't fit the "addict type" They run businesses, work jobs and do it on the weekends.


----------



## George Wallace (18 Nov 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> The fentanyl is in all sorts of drugs, even on the pot. Look at "rave drugs" people take them without a clue what they are. I have known lots of people that used various drugs and don't fit the "addict type" They run businesses, work jobs and do it on the weekends.



There are lots of people who drink alcohol. Just because they run businesses, work jobs and only drink on weekends, does not excuse some of them from being alcoholics.  There are many addicts out there who are quite functional in society.  Just because they don't look like homeless or commit crimes to get money for their fix, does not mean that they are not addicts.


----------



## jollyjacktar (18 Nov 2016)

If it isn't properly prescribed medication and used by the intended patient as per, then I have a hard time feeling sorry for them as they're the one's opening their mouths and throwing the nasty pills down range and misusing a drug.  They're authors of their own misfortune and fate.  Free will and all that.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Nov 2016)

The problem is here in BC it's spreading to all the drugs, years ago I had to treat a guy having heart attack symptoms and coughing up blood, he admitted to smoking pot. Talking to our liaison with the BC Ambulance service, a lot of the pot available was being laced with rat poison. "Recreational use" here in BC is quite high and a number of the deaths are people who would not think are doing drugs and a lot of people see doing "recreational drugs" as acceptable and as a normal weekend activity. Not condoning it, but just identifying the areas we as a society can impact.


----------



## mariomike (18 Nov 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I have a hard time feeling sorry for them



Me too. OD's were our bread and butter calls, that's all.


Fentanyl antidote doesn't make people invincible, Winnipeg paramedics warn
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-paramedics-warn-fentanyl-antidote-not-invincible-1.3826684
Calls for overdoses continue to rise.


----------



## ballz (18 Nov 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There are many addicts out there who are quite functional in society.  Just because they don't look like homeless or commit crimes to get money for their fix, does not mean that they are not addicts.



True, but it also true the other way around. Just because someone uses drugs recreationally, doesn't mean they are an addict... which is what his point was and what many people dispute. They can see how one can drink recreationally without being addicted but can't believe for a second that someone might be able to use cocaine recreationally without being an addict.


----------



## ballz (18 Nov 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> So, you can cite a reputable source?



Ths is a seemingly objective, non-biased source discussing it (and the other variables involved).
http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decriminalisation-portugal-setting-record-straight



> *The reality is that Portugal’s drug situation has improved significantly in several key areas. Most notably, HIV infections and drug-related deaths have decreased, while the dramatic rise in use feared by some has failed to materialise.* However, such improvements are not solely the result of the decriminalisation policy; Portugal’s shift towards a more health-centred approach to drugs, as well as wider health and social policy changes, are equally, if not more, responsible for the positive changes observed. Drawing on the most up-to-date evidence, this briefing clarifies the extent of Portugal’s achievement, and debunks some of the erroneous claims made about the country’s innovative approach to drugs.
> 
> <<<Cut>>>
> 
> ...



I will point out here that many of the other variables in play that are discussed in the article would be equally recognized, perhaps even more so, if narcotics were legalized. Less stigma, easier to collect data, more resources available for treatment, etc.


----------



## ballz (18 Nov 2016)

It's always interesting to see people's disbelief in what happened in Portugal, it goes against everything we've had entrenched in our brains about drugs, laws, police, government, etc... However, if you put some thought into it, it really just flows very logically.


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> It's always interesting to see people's disbelief in what happened in Portugal, it goes against everything we've had entrenched in our brains about drugs, laws, police, government, etc... However, if you put some thought into it, it really just flows very logically.



Trust me I know.

Look at the angst I got for starting this thread;

Medical Cannabis for Canadian Veterans


----------



## the 48th regulator (18 Nov 2016)

Premier Clark's claim pot laced with fentanyl not true, say police 

Clark's office says premier simply repeating info learned from VPD, RCMP, media and other emergency responders

 By Mike Laanela, CBC News Posted: Nov 18, 2016 2:13 PM PT Last Updated: Nov 18, 2016 4:09 PM PT 

It's a claim that's been repeated so often it's often assumed to be true — all they way up to the office of the Premier of B.C.

But police and health officials in B.C. say there is no evidence to back up Premier Christy Clark's comments yesterday in Ottawa that marijuana has been found laced with fentanyl in B.C.

Clark made the claim after meeting with federal officials to highlight her concerns about the fentanyl overdose crisis currently sweeping B.C.

The premier said police are finding traces of deadly fentanyl in all sorts of illegal drugs from cocaine to heroin to marijuana — and it's those combinations of drugs that are killing people.

"I think regulating marijuana is even more important now when we're finding fentanyl in marijuana," Clark said Thursday at a press conference in Ottawa.
Clark discusses the opioid crisis

B.C. Premier Christy Clark, centre, attends a meeting with federal officials in Ottawa Thursday, Nov. 17, 2016 to discuss B.C.'s opioid crisis with Leslie McBain, left, a mother who lost her only son to overdose, and Mikaela Mamer, an advocate and former addict who lost her boyfriend and best friend to overdoses. On the table are photos of people who have lost their lives to opioid overdoses. (Jennifer Choi/CBC)

But it turns out Clark was likely repeating some erroneous information, according to Vancouver Police Constable Brian Montague, who said while it has been suspected and raised by police as a concern, the claim has never actually been proven to be true.

"I can't speak for other police departments and I can't say that fentanyl has not, is not, or couldn't be placed in marijuana, but I can tell you the VPD has not seized marijuana that has been tested and shown to be laced with fentanyl," Montague said on Friday.

He notes, however, while police have seized fentanyl along with drugs like cocaine, heroin, meth and marijuana, they've never actually found fentanyl in the marijuana.

"This is a constant battle to try and keep this information accurate," he said.

"There have been comments made in the past regarding fentanyl in marijuana that may have been the belief at the time based on the information available, but it has shown not to be the case and we continue to try and correct any misinformation."
RCMP warnings lacked evidence

According to Premier Clark's office, she was simply repeating information learned from Vancouver police, RCMP, media and other emergency responders.

Even the CBC has reported anecdotal claims from community organizations.

The premier's office pointed to an RCMP warning last week that marijuana laced with fentanyl may be circulating in the Haida Gwaii community of Masset.

"Masset RCMP has reason to believe that there is marijuana available for sale in Masset that is laced with fentanyl," said the statement.

But Cpl. Madonna Saunderson told the CBC the warning was based solely on concerns raised by community members and there "was never any marijuana seized or handed to police" to back up the claims.
Fentanyl

Fentanyl is a powerful opioid painkiller that is commonly mixed into other drugs like cocaine and heroin. (CBC)

Likewise, at the RCMP's provincial headquarters in Surrey, Cpl. Janelle Shoilet says they have heard plenty of stories, but none have been proven true.

"We have even had individuals present with opioid overdose symptoms that have claimed they have only consumed marijuana," said Janelle.

"However, we have never seized or confirmed via chemical analysis any marijuana laced with or contaminated with fentanyl,
'No official confirmation of any cases to date'

The BC Coroners Service also confirmed its members have found no evidence of pot laced with fentanyl killing anyone in B.C.

"We cannot confirm any deaths that fit this pattern, and aren't aware of any," said spokesperson Barb McLintock.

"But that being said, all we really know is what was in someone's bloodstream after death. A toxicology report doesn't tell us when or how they consumed the substances involved."

Several other sources also said they actually have no evidence either, including Patricia Daly, the chief public health officer with Vancouver Coastal Health.

A similar lack of evidence was even confirmed by the provincial Ministry of Health.

"There is no official confirmation of any cases to date," said spokesperson Lori Cascaden.
One possible explanation

It all raises the question, why are the rumours persisting without any evidence?

Cascaden offers one possible explanation.

"There is the occasional report of overdoses where people reported taking marijuana, but responded to naloxone (the most effective antidote for a fentanyl overdose)," she said.

That might be because they are not comfortable admitting to using other types of harder drugs, she says.

"In such a situation, we would suspect an opioid was involved, but testing hasn't been conducted in any case that we are aware of at this time."
'A shadow of a possibility'

​B.C. Public Safety Minister Mike Morris said on Friday that he hadn't spoken to the premier about where she got her information, but he said, even if there was no hard evidence, her message was worthwhile.

"I'm looking at it from a public safety perspective here, and if there's a shadow of a possibility that fentanyl can be laced into marijuana or any other substance that we have out there, we need to be as vocal and vigilant as we can to make sure people are aware of that, so that's where I'm coming from," he said.

"You know, based on my experience in the police force, I've seen lots of drug trafficking locations where they've taken large quantities of drugs and repackaged them into smaller packages to sell and the cross contamination is unbelievable sometimes," said Morris, adding that the toll fentanyl has taken on B.C. lives has been enormous.

"If we have to apologize at the end of the day that maybe we overstated a couple things, I would rather do that than suffer the consequences."

With files from Rafferty Baker.


----------



## George Wallace (18 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> True, but it also true the other way around. Just because someone uses drugs recreationally, doesn't mean they are an addict... which is what his point was and what many people dispute. They can see how one can drink recreationally without being addicted but can't believe for a second that someone might be able to use cocaine recreationally without being an addict.



Agreed.  It is a fine line.  I remember the term "Weekend Alcoholics" applied to certain people who would remain sober all week, but would be totally wasted every weekend; and I mean every weekend, and holidays.


----------



## medicineman (19 Nov 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Agreed.  It is a fine line.  I remember the term "Weekend Alcoholics" applied to certain people who would remain sober all week, but would be totally wasted every weekend; and I mean every weekend, and holidays.



They fall into the abuse/borderline addict category, and cause no end of grief in the ER...these are the asshats that try drinking their pub dry and then have the snot beat out of them on YouTube for the world to blame the police on, go drive home and kill a few people or go home an abuse their spouses or renders themselves unconscious and aspirates their vomit; the clown that snorts some coke and shows up with chest pain with/without a full blown heart attack all while bouncing off the walls; the kid that went to a rave and didn't realize they shouldn't mix and match Ecstasy and what ever they're usually taking and now have serotonin syndrome and we're trying to keep their brains from melting; the teenager that gets into her granny's fentanyl patches she has for terminal cancer, extracts and shoots a 3 day dose into herself and we're now fighting to keep them breathing and not brain damaged.  I've left out the clowns that don't get a buzz after eating their weed, so take a lot more and then are gibbled up, or the potheads that show up with cyclic vomiting syndrome, the twit that does a meth/LSD combo and is totally paranoid/psychotic and thinks that everyone trying to help them are big purple elephant finger puppets.

I have of course left out the actual addicts - the ones that manage to eat 2 months worth of Percocet in a week and now think we owe them a refill and then get abusive when we politely and then impolitely tell them to phuque off; the mountains of tobacco addicts that clog our beds with COPD exacerbations, heart attacks, strokes and blood vessel disease; the fast/greasy/carb rich food addicts without an exercise addiction, that show up with new diabetes, heart attacks, strokes and liver/gallbladder disease; the other bone idle folks that sit around all day and show up with blood clots in their legs/lungs; the alcoholic with DT's, cirrhotic liver disease or a massive GI bleed; more potheads with cyclic vomiting; the little kids that show up for CFS checkups because their parents were too stoned or drunk (or both) to look after them.  I'm also kind of expecting a run of what I call "new COPD" from folks that smoke a pile of weed a day with unfiltered joints/bongs - funny how when I ask if someone smokes, most potheads will say no until I ask about cannabis use...oh yeah, 1/4-full pack day equivalent (for more than a few I might add)...and they can't figure out why they're having breathing issues.

I guess my issue is that the Canada Health Act ensures everyone has the right to walk into the ER (or be rolled in, dragged in by police or tossed in by friends) at any time for any reason and can't be turned away...even if it's because they're self-destructive and don't look after themselves.  It's bad enough that people come into the ER with a cold that's 20 minutes old "because I can't be sick right now" (and the undertone of "it's my right" : ) - when you consider that to get triaged, the province gets billed about $700 IIRC...not withstanding medications, instruments, radiography, salaries of docs, nurses, PA's/NP's, techs, etc, you can quickly end up in the 5-6 figures for a visit without admission.  Ward rate is about $8-900/day.  Until things get changed such that folks that show up like this are billed in one way or another (have a higher premium on their provincial healthcare for instance), they're going to become an increased burden on tax payers.  The problem as I see it is folks want their rights to self-determination but don't feel that they should pay for that same right - so the rest of us do.  Nothing in our society is free...to quote "Team America", "Freedom isn't free, it costs folks like you and me..."

On the bright side, I know I'll have a job for a few more years...if you want to legalize things, you should probably come see what things are like in ER's with stuff that is in fact already legal, forget the stuff that isn't.

:2c:

MM


----------



## Chispa (19 Nov 2016)

Medicineman comments are indicative on what I heard from individuals working in hospitals ERs, walking clinics, or drug centers. IMO; the "legalisation" of these hardcore narcotics without medical supervision is bluntly absurd.  

Lets C Winnipeg news for 2015, Apr., Aug., 2016, concerning the Fentanyl epidemic, known as the killer High. The label, definition of “recreational use” is slightly misleading if one considers the potency of these narcotics. Street pushers use Fentanly when cutting heroin or other drugs, just like a distiller dilutes alcohol % count with a water distiller, making more money from the batch. Fentanly is also known as the poor man’s drug, easily obtained and mixed with other narcotics, etc.……Per Say, smoking a joint is not high enough; I’ll recreationally use Fentanyl and see if I can reach the moon.


*Cocaine 'contaminated' with fentanyl suspected in Winnipeg overdose death..*
Police are still waiting on toxicology reports, but they suspect that a death over the weekend, and another serious but non-lethal overdose, happened after two men consumed cocaine that may have been contaminated with fentanyl. 'It's the great imposter: it can be obtained much more cheaply than heroin.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/cocaine-contaminated-with-fentanyl-suspected-in-winnipeg-overdose-death-1.3193628

*A Killer High: How Canada got addicted to fentanyl.*
It’s as easy as ordering a book online: Sign up for an account, choose a method of payment, and receive the package in three to four business days. 

But first, there are some choices to make. The fentanyl hydrochloride comes in a variety of quantities, ranging from a half-gram sample for $35 (U.S) to a kilogram for $21,000. It also comes in different strengths – purchasers are warned to “be careful” and do their research on the product, described as 99-per-cent pure. And of course, there are the related pharmaceutical products: the fentanyl patches, tablets and even lollipops. 

Buyers are assured their package won’t get seized at the Canadian border. To avoid the risk of detection, says a supplier from China, he conceals the purchase alongside urine test strips. Not that there’s reason to worry: Canadian border guards cannot open packages weighing less than 30 grams without the consent of the recipient. (A Globe and Mail reporter corresponded with sellers and suppliers using a pseudonym and did not disclose himself as a journalist, in order to obtain accurate information from the seller.) 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/investigations/a-killer-high-how-canada-got-addicted-tofentanyl/article29570025/


http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/heroin-epidemic-buries-midwest-329629821.html


C.U.

Sorry for all the edits my eyes are watering, etc.


----------



## ModlrMike (19 Nov 2016)

medicineman said:
			
		

> On the bright side, I know I'll have a job for a few more years...if you want to legalize things, you should probably come see what things are like in ER's with stuff that is in fact already legal, forget the stuff that isn't.
> 
> :2c:
> 
> MM



You an' me both, brother!


----------



## mariomike (19 Nov 2016)

18 Nov. 2016

Winnipeg Firefighter / Paramedic had to receive emergency treatment after he was possibly exposed to fentanyl on a call.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/firefighter-paramedic-treated-with-opioid-antidote-after-exposure-to-suspected-fentanyl-1.3856239
"... a possible fentanyl overdose in a home when he started having trouble with his throat."


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Nov 2016)

[quote author=Chispa] 
But first, there are some choices to make. The fentanyl hydrochloride comes in a variety of quantities, ranging from a half-gram sample for $35 (U.S) to a kilogram for $21,000. [/QUOTE] 
Paying for shipping on only $35 seems almost criminal.  Best to lean towards the 20G's I say. 



> purchasers are warned to “be careful”


Say what you want,  these people care about their consumers.


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Nov 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> 18 Nov. 2016
> 
> Winnipeg Firefighter / Paramedic had to receive emergency treatment after he was possibly exposed to fentanyl on a call.
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/firefighter-paramedic-treated-with-opioid-antidote-after-exposure-to-suspected-fentanyl-1.3856239
> "... a possible fentanyl overdose in a home when he started having trouble with his throat."



Recreational drug use hurts more than the user?  Who would have thought.


----------



## ballz (19 Nov 2016)

medicineman said:
			
		

> They fall into the abuse/borderline addict category, and cause no end of grief in the ER...these are the asshats that try drinking their pub dry and then have the snot beat out of them on YouTube for the world to blame the police on, go drive home and kill a few people or go home an abuse their spouses or renders themselves unconscious and aspirates their vomit; the clown that snorts some coke and shows up with chest pain with/without a full blown heart attack all while bouncing off the walls; the kid that went to a rave and didn't realize they shouldn't mix and match Ecstasy and what ever they're usually taking and now have serotonin syndrome and we're trying to keep their brains from melting; the teenager that gets into her granny's fentanyl patches she has for terminal cancer, extracts and shoots a 3 day dose into herself and we're now fighting to keep them breathing and not brain damaged.  I've left out the clowns that don't get a buzz after eating their weed, so take a lot more and then are gibbled up, or the potheads that show up with cyclic vomiting syndrome, the twit that does a meth/LSD combo and is totally paranoid/psychotic and thinks that everyone trying to help them are big purple elephant finger puppets.
> 
> I have of course left out the actual addicts - the ones that manage to eat 2 months worth of Percocet in a week and now think we owe them a refill and then get abusive when we politely and then impolitely tell them to phuque off; the mountains of tobacco addicts that clog our beds with COPD exacerbations, heart attacks, strokes and blood vessel disease; the fast/greasy/carb rich food addicts without an exercise addiction, that show up with new diabetes, heart attacks, strokes and liver/gallbladder disease; the other bone idle folks that sit around all day and show up with blood clots in their legs/lungs; the alcoholic with DT's, cirrhotic liver disease or a massive GI bleed; more potheads with cyclic vomiting; the little kids that show up for CFS checkups because their parents were too stoned or drunk (or both) to look after them.  I'm also kind of expecting a run of what I call "new COPD" from folks that smoke a pile of weed a day with unfiltered joints/bongs - funny how when I ask if someone smokes, most potheads will say no until I ask about cannabis use...oh yeah, 1/4-full pack day equivalent (for more than a few I might add)...and they can't figure out why they're having breathing issues.



Those are all great anecdotes if we were discussing whether or not drugs are good for your health. I don't see anybody debating that they are.



			
				Chispa said:
			
		

> Medicineman comments are indicative on what I heard from individuals working in hospitals ERs, walking clinics, or drug centers. IMO; the "legalisation" of these hardcore narcotics without medical supervision is bluntly absurd.



Sorry, I fail to see where in his posts he points to how making these drugs illegal has lessened the workload he has in the ER.... if anything the anecdotes from our medical professionals support that prohibition doesn't work...



			
				medicineman said:
			
		

> On the bright side, I know I'll have a job for a few more years...if you want to legalize things, you should probably come see what things are like in ER's with stuff that is in fact already legal, forget the stuff that isn't.



You, like many others, are making the assumption that legalizing narcotics would cause more people to start doing drugs and therefore create more situations like you mentioned in the ER. So far, no one has supported this assumption, and a bit of logical discussion on the matter quickly makes one realize that in fact, prohibiting them has caused us to be where we are today... an OD epidemic.

Tugging on heartstrings is not evidence of anything except that drugs are bad for you, which I never debated. If I come visit the ER and see someone OD'ing on crack or crystal meth, my response is going to be "Looks like we should have legalized cocaine." So you can tone down on the self-righteousness.

It's no different than the Canadian Medical Association coming out in favour of the long-gun registry. Whoop-di-diddly-do, no crap firearms cause injuries that medical staff have to treat, I don't need a doctor to tell me that. That is not convincing evidence (or evidence at all) that the long-gun registry was actually reducing firearm-related injuries. It's just a bunch of self-righteous pricks that haven't put any critical thought into it and are just purporting "guns are bad."


----------



## Jarnhamar (19 Nov 2016)

I thought reading into the whole Portugal drug thing they found evidence that there was an increase in drug use.  When I get to a laptop I'll do some fact checking.


----------



## the 48th regulator (19 Nov 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought reading into the whole Portugal drug thing they found evidence that there was an increase in drug use.  When I get to a laptop I'll do some fact checking.



rly:

Google Search: portugal drug laws results

Drug policy of Portugal

 Why hardly anyone dies from a drug overdose in Portugal 

Portugal decriminalised drugs 14 years ago – and now hardly anyone dies from overdosing

Ten Years Ago Portugal Decriminalized All Drugs. What Happened Next? 

Portugal’s Example: What Happened After It Decriminalized All Drugs, From Weed to Heroin


----------



## Inspir (19 Nov 2016)

I think if Canada ever did decide to go the way Portugal did it would have a awkward effect on our relations south of the border. The DEA has more less declared Portugal as pure evil.


----------



## brihard (19 Nov 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Recreational drug use hurts more than the user?  Who would have thought.



Yup... A number of police have been exposed and had dangerous reactions too. More and more of us are now carrying Naloxone on shift- not for the addict ODing on the street, but for self/buddy aid. Not that I wouldn't use it on someone else if necessary, but fentanyl has become a serious personal protection issue.


----------



## AbdullahD (19 Nov 2016)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yup... A number of police have been exposed and had dangerous reactions too. More and more of us are now carrying Naloxone on shift- not for the addict ODing on the street, but for self/buddy aid. Not that I wouldn't use it on someone else if necessary, but fentanyl has become a serious personal protection issue.



Not that cabbies are in the exact same boat as police or other first responders, but I have friends who addicts tried or threatened to stab with needles (over money too ffs). Most people who are not high or drunk are fine individuals, but when they are fiending, high or drunk.. it makes the situation much more unstable.

I am happy you guys are carrying or are able to carry those kits. I honestly wish we could too (as far as I know we can not) a lot of people use cabs to go to ER, due to some ideas they have regarding 911 and who knows it 'may' save a life one day.. or not.

Abdullah


----------



## mariomike (19 Nov 2016)

AbdullahD said:
			
		

> a lot of people use cabs to go to ER,


----------



## Chispa (19 Nov 2016)

In BC, instead of prescribing methadone too addicts, heroin is given free of charge; investigation reveals they do not like the high of methadone and sell it for heroin.


My relationship with my daughter is better than it's ever been," says James, 48. But James says it wasn't so long ago, her days were spent doing absolutely anything to score heroin. She used to steal hundreds of dollars' worth of meat from grocery stores and sell it on the streets. She even stole from Tia. "I took $500 out of her account and because of the lovely girl that she is, she never wanted to make me feel bad," James says. "If someone had told me I would do something so despicable — I never would have believed it."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/crosstown-clinic-heroin-addiction-1.3779768


*Doctors in B.C. can now prescribe Heroin:*  

Prescription heroin is used in some European countries, including Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands, but it's been a long time coming to North America. The first Canadian study that tested the effectiveness of giving addicts heroin under the supervision of doctors was the North American Opiate Medication Initiative (NAOMI), which started in 2005. It eventually recruited 251 addicts in Vancouver and Montreal who had unsuccessfully attempted to kick smack numerous times. A control group was given methadone, which is commonly prescribed to heroin addicts so they can wean themselves off hard drugs.

The results, published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2009, showed that injectable heroin —known in medical-speak as diacetylmorphine—was a far more effective and efficient treatment than methadone in getting users out of the vicious and costly cycle of crime, infection, overdoses, and hospital visits that are a way of life for those in the grips of long-term, hardcore addiction. Compared to those trying to kick heroin using methadone, participants used street drugs less often, committed fewer crimes, and were employed more often, more connected to their families, and straight-up happier. A "cost of illness" analysis from 2000 found that severely addicted individuals can cost society over $43,000 per year, so getting addicts off the streets and into roles as members of productive society is good for all of Canada.
https://drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=226483

*Canada now allows prescription heroin in severe opioid addiction.*
Health Canada has amended regulations allowing doctors to prescribe heroin to people who are severely addicted to opioids. The government says the country is facing an opioid overdose crisis and healthcare providers need help in treating patients suffering from chronic dependency. The change to the former Conservative government's legislation means pharmaceutical-grade heroin can be prescribed under a special-access program in cases where traditional treatment has failed. However, Health Canada says that while there is scientific evidence to support emergency access to the drug, the treatment is not an option for most people.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/canada-now-allows-prescription-heroin-in-severe-opioid-addiction-1.3753312


I found this online, someone looking for Heroin in Montreal and what the prices are; too funny.

On Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:44:47 PM UTC-4, drug abuser wrote:
> K so I went and found a homeless guy, gave him 30$ and he calls a #. I
> met two guys who drive in a car around downtown all day. They tell me
> 260$ a gram????? wtf Im sure Im being ripped off.

heroin in montreal is sold only by the italians who sell shitty dope at high prices, its usually 60$ for a quarter which is usually .15-.2 grams, we have good coke and the best weed, vancouver halifax toronto are all different because there is no monopoly on anyhting. vancouver is cheap for heroin and toronto is cheaper for blow and montreal has the best weed and blow.
Show trimmed content 

je veut en acheté pour 50$ ou 60$ suis a montreal coin atwater a tu un no de cell que je peut en contacté urgent de en avoir

tann...@gmail.com 
its 200$ for a full gram and normally an 8/10, but ya might get a finders fee which is around 20-30$ or he might take a 0.1 from your baggy...most of all stay away from music jumper if you find a thread with his name in it,,he rips people off for a living,,,a real fkn junkie......if anyone gets a hook up, i need a new one. my regular guy is in free room n board now lol so im dying to find a new good seller.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.drugs.hard/gqAO4wwcEVo


*The Street Cost of Heroin In Ohio*

How much does heroin cost on the street? The price of heroin depends upon a number of different factors – including the type of heroin, how available the drug is to the public at a given time and how the heroin is “cut” and processed.
The average cost of a single dose (0.1 g) of heroin purchased on the street has been reported as approximately $15–$20 in the U.S. state of Ohio.[1]
The heroin price per gram depends upon its purity and the availability of the drug in the area at that given time.

Someone with a “hard-core” heroin habit may pay $150–$200 per day in order to support his or her habit.

The reason for such a high daily spending habit has its roots in the nature of heroin addiction. As individuals become more dependent on the drug, they build tolerance to it – meaning that it takes more and more heroin to get high. This leads to an expensive habit – and the constant threat of overdose. http://heroin.net/about/how-much-does-heroin-cost/#streetcost


C.U.


----------



## Chispa (20 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> Sorry, I fail to see where in his posts he points to how making these drugs illegal has lessened the workload he has in the ER.... if anything the anecdotes from our medical professionals support that prohibition doesn't work...
> 
> You, like many others, are making the assumption that legalizing narcotics would cause more people to start doing drugs and therefore create more situations like you mentioned in the ER. So far, no one has supported this assumption, and a bit of logical discussion on the matter quickly makes one realize that in fact, prohibiting them has caused us to be where we are today... an OD epidemic.




Hi, no need for sorry; and you think by making them kosher will lesson the burden on ER’s, especially when in Montreal waiting times from 5 - 12+ hrs taking a year too see a surgeon or get an MRI, etc.? Hospitals are under staff in Quebec, ER & hospital personal are working under great pressure, not adding junkies sucking up on medical services, etc.

You believe with years or decades in many cases of drug abuse, it cannot have repercussions when you get older. My neighbour 47 years of age, drinking for years got stomach pains went to ER after test told he had advance stage, pancreatic cancer with only two weeks too live; died 13 days later. True anecdotes, studies from Pros., supporting that prohibition is questionable while the other side of the coin claims, au contraire.

*Arguments for and against drug prohibition*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguments_for_and_against_drug_prohibition

C.U.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Nov 2016)

What a load of crap that those who wish to profit from legal drugs spew......so ingesting heroin and then jumping off a building isn't drug-related?   Here, for alcohol- related traffic accidents MADD counts it even if your lips just taste a drink less then 8 hours before. 

http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decriminalisation-portugal-setting-record-straight
Deaths 

Some have argued that, since 2001, drug-related deaths in Portugal either remained constant or actually increased.26 However, these claims are based on the number of people who died with traces of any illicit drug in their body, rather than the number of people who died as a result of the use of an illicit drug.27
Given an individual can die with traces of drugs in their body without this being the cause of their death, it is the second number – derived from clinical assessments made by physicians, rather than post-mortem toxicological tests – that is the standard, internationally accepted measure of drug-related deaths. And according to this measure, deaths due to drug use have decreased significantly – from approximately 80 in 2001, to 16 in 2012.28

One can quote all the feel good drug stories about a country they want but here's the bottom line....  http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-portugal-could-be-europes-next-economic-disaster-2016-08-24  ........if you call a country where drugs are more important then the fact your economy is crashing then enjoy the move.  I prefer our children to stay sober and stay in shape for the future.


----------



## mariomike (20 Nov 2016)

It's all very tragic.  

OD's are part of the job. You get used to it.

But, remember while we are saving that skell, we could be somewhere else,

People are growing tired of using tax money to have First Responders save those who OD again & again.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/405ff26551734644858540b43a21019a/just-say-no-narcan-heroin-rescue-efforts-draw-backlash

"We give Narcan & the first thing out of the mouth of the person is, ‘Get the Hell away from me.’ ” 

 "You ruined my high " or "That cost me $$"


----------



## Inspir (20 Nov 2016)

Ain't that the truth. I've had OD patients mad to the point that we've had a full out brawl in the back on an ambulance because I've taken their high away. Now instead of giving the Naloxone in one big push we are just titrating to effect to get them out of that respiratory depression/arrest and at the same time still keeping them a little under the influence. Having said that I've also seen medics who also give the shot all at once to ruin their high. I've even heard rumblings of just doing airway management enroute and forgoing Naloxone all together but have yet to see it.


----------



## Journeyman (20 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> So you can tone down on the self-righteousness.



"*Self-righteousness*.
Adjective.  A feeling or display of moral superiority derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person. Self-righteous individuals are often intolerant of the opinions and behaviors of others."

Hmm, how 'bout that.


----------



## ballz (20 Nov 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hmm, how 'bout that.



Yes, the person actually bringing another way to combat this drug epidemic for discussion is self-righteous, nevermind those who can't do anything better than try to shout people down with "drugs are bad."

Do you have anything of interest to add to the discussion or are you just doing your usual post a sarcastic remark that the majority will appreciate and then ducking out? :



			
				Chispa said:
			
		

> and you think by making them kosher will lesson the burden on ER’s



Yes.



			
				Chispa said:
			
		

> especially when in Montreal waiting times from 5 - 12+ hrs taking a year too see a surgeon or get an MRI, etc.? Hospitals are under staff in Quebec, ER & hospital personal are working under great pressure,



What does the current wait times have to do with it unless you are making the assumption that legalizing drugs will increase drug use despite the evidence?



			
				Chispa said:
			
		

> not adding junkies sucking up on medical services, etc.



Oh, I see, you *are* still making that assumption.



			
				Chispa said:
			
		

> True anecdotes, studies from Pros., supporting that prohibition is questionable while the other side of the coin claims, au contraire.
> 
> *Arguments for and against drug prohibition*
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguments_for_and_against_drug_prohibition



Thank you. Finally, something. I find the arguments stronger on the anti-prohibition side, but at least the wikipedia article doesn't just say "drugs are bad."



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> What a load of crap that those who wish to profit from legal drugs spew......so ingesting heroin and then jumping off a building isn't drug-related?   Here, for alcohol- related traffic accidents MADD counts it even if your lips just taste a drink less then 8 hours before.



Wow... You really have to try hard to miss that point by that much. Marijuana stays in your system for 1+ week(s). So if someone smokes weed and 2 weeks later is in a car accident, and tests positive for having weed in their system, you are arguing that it should be considered a drug-related death? Do you want accurate statistics so we can find solutions or do you just want solutions that support your current train of thought?

 :facepalm: MADD has a very deliberate agenda/mandate to create awareness of the dangers of drinking and driving and to lobby to reduce drinking and driving... you don't think it serves their own agenda to try and count things that are not alcohol-related accidents as alcohol-related accidents? Really? You think its reasonable to have a sip of beer, 8 hours later get in a car accident, and call that a drinking and driving accident?



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> One can quote all the feel good drug stories about a country they want but here's the bottom line....  http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-portugal-could-be-europes-next-economic-disaster-2016-08-24  ........if you call a country where drugs are more important then the fact your economy is crashing then enjoy the move.  I prefer our children to stay sober and stay in shape for the future.



Wow, and I know you are going to explain to us all how their successful narcotics policies (creating less addicts, less drug-related deaths, less HIV, etc) has caused their economic woes? Because I mean, you wouldn't post something completely random that is not good about their country and try to blame it on their narcotics policies without some sort of.... support?



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I prefer our children to stay sober and stay in shape for the future.



That's nice tugging on the heart strings again. If you really want that, maybe you should unclasp your hands from around your ears put some critical analysis into it. See below, which was already posted but I'm sure you deliberately didn't read it as it might force you to have to put some thought into what you currently believe.

http://www.tdpf.org.uk/blog/drug-decriminalisation-portugal-setting-record-straight


> _*Drug use has declined among those aged 15-24*_, the population most at risk of initiating drug use


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Nov 2016)

From a website who's only goal is to decriminalize drugs........Oh I read it....did you click on the "campaigns" button by chance?   Nope, just another "wiki know it all" who, unlike a few posters in this thread, live/work the destruction that is drug use.


EDIT: ..and what I know from directly working with jailed addicts is they very, very seldom ever become economically productive again.....kinda like Portugal.


----------



## ballz (20 Nov 2016)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> From a website who's only goal is to decriminalize drugs........Oh I read it....did you click on the "campaigns" button by chance?



Uh huh... and Time Magazine and The British Journal of Criminology are all just a bunch of druggies that want to profit off of dealing drugs too, right?

http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/23/portugals-drug-experience-new-study-confirms-decriminalization-was-a-success/
http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/6/999.full

Can you get those earmuffs any tighter?



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Nope, just another "wiki know it all" who, unlike a few posters in this thread, live/work the destruction that is drug use.



First of all, you don't know what my experience with drug addicts is, I assure you its not "nil." Second of all, paramedics and prison guards being able to see the *results* of drug use, does not make you any kind of authority on how to *prevent* it (see my comment on the Canadian Medical Association and the long-gun registry). Nay, it appears to make you incapable of analyzing it because you are so emotionally invested in supporting the current failing methodology.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> EDIT: ..and what I know from directly working with jailed addicts is they very, very seldom ever become economically productive again.....kinda like Portugal.



Now you are contradicting yourself. Indeed, jailing an addict tends to make the situation worse, that's why Portugal is not *jailing* addicts and why I am supporting not jailing them. We're the ones jailing addicts, with the support of yourself.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> Now you are contradicting yourself. Indeed, jailing an addict tends to make the situation worse, that's why Portugal is not *jailing* addicts and why I am supporting not jailing them. We're the ones jailing addicts, with the support of yourself.



Now you really show your ignorance........[in Ontario] we have help for those who truly WANT it.  I know, its where I work and what I do.  Just one catch,.....the inmate must apply and must be willing to accept change.  Two things most say they want but truly only want a magic pill and not sacrifice.


----------



## mariomike (20 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> Second of all, paramedics and prison guards being able to see the *results* of drug use, does not make you any kind of authority on how to *prevent* it



36+ years of picking up skells. Why are they skells? Sociological problems, education, dna....who knows? Who cares? Wasn't my job to figure it out.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Nov 2016)

And before I come across [well maybe too late ;D] as some holier then thou type who has never danced the life, I have been in jail [the best thing that happened to a young me] and I have, when I was younger, delved into softer drugs.  I truly used to believe going out on the town with two hits of 'sid' and drinking diet Pepsi all night was healthier then just drinking.

Being exposed to what I have been exposed to has certainly changed all that......


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## Journeyman (20 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> Do you have anything of interest to add to the discussion or are you just doing your usual post a sarcastic remark that the majority will appreciate and then ducking out? :


  :boring: 


Previously, I thanked those who contributed substantive content because, quite frankly, this 'issue' was not on my radar. The people thanked obviously don't include those who believe that anyone who disagrees is 'just a bunch of self-righteous pricks that haven't put any critical thought into it.'

While I am now vaguely aware of topic, it's nothing I care to invest my time in;  but it's obvious there's no need, since there's one expert here who has all the answers.  You enjoy.


----------



## ballz (20 Nov 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The people thanked obviously don't include *those who believe that anyone who disagrees is 'just a bunch of self-righteous pricks that haven't put any critical thought into it.'*



That's a good try at twisting what I said about a completely different topic (CMA and LGR) and trying to frame as me calling everyone in here who disagrees with me a self-righteous prick.



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> it's nothing I care to invest my time in



Perfect. I look forward to the end of your trolling.



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Now you really show your ignorance........[in Ontario] we have help for those who truly WANT it.  I know, its where I work and what I do.  Just one catch,.....the inmate must apply and must be willing to accept change.  Two things most say they want but truly only want a magic pill and not sacrifice.



Good try at ignoring that your statement that completely contradicts itself and turning it into something else.

You assume well beyond what you're capable of accurately assuming. I am not ignorant of the programs offered to inmates or the processes in which they get into them. My uncle spent half my life in and out of jail as a methamphetamine and opoid addict, and after being picked up out of a ditch with three stab wounds in his back, he turned himself in, paid the piper, and has been clean now for over 6 years. 

I'm not ignorant to the programs, nor am I ignorant to how easy it was for him remain addicted whilst in jail (something you should know all about but seem to conveniently keep quiet) and how those programs had nothing to do with him getting clean. He cleaned up after hitting rock bottom and deciding for himself, the help he received from the system was trivial and he will be the first one to correct you if you want to use him as a success story to support your thesis.

You're not the only person that has/had skin in the game, stop acting like you're an authority on the subject and I just can't possibly have a clue. I genuinely wish to curb the drug abuse problems we face, suggesting I "wish to profit off of legal drugs " is just dishonest on your own part. Let's face it, the drug war is an epic fail and an epic waste of resources which has cost many, many lives. I don't know why anyone (except for drug lords who are making a mint off of this) would want to continue on this path.


----------



## the 48th regulator (20 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> That's a good try at twisting what I said about a completely different topic (CMA and LGR) and trying to frame as me calling everyone in here who disagrees with me a self-righteous prick.
> 
> Perfect. I look forward to the end of your trolling.
> 
> ...



 :goodpost:

Bang on well said Ballz and keep posting the information.  Unlike some others who have to be the hall monitors, or constantly reminding us that their occupation somehow make them SMEs, you have provided good information and countred the trolling.

BZ


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Nov 2016)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Lets see 'hoosgow'  from 89 to 2000,,,,Gatu/ SLVTC for mental illness 2000 to 2005 and then OCI for treatment of all sorts of offences, additions, and mental health problems.  You haven't even scratched the surface of what there is too learn about mental illness son,..........and neither have I.  Education never stops.....


When it comes to the effects of drugs and topics like decriminalizing or free injection sites in Canada etc.. I think input from Police, Corrections, Paramedics and those in the Medical field carry quite a bit of weight.  I never even considered police and medics were at such a risk of secondary exposure and corrections officers get a ground zero look at this stuff without rose coloured glasses.


----------



## the 48th regulator (20 Nov 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> When it comes to the effects of drugs and topics like decriminalizing or free injection sites in Canada etc.. I think input from Police, Corrections, Paramedics and those in the Medical field carry quite a bit of weight.  I never even considered police and medics were at such a risk of secondary exposure and corrections officers get a ground zero look at this stuff without rose coloured glasses.



Input is always good, from anyone.  However, exclusivity is not.  These people see the extreme of the dangers in EVERYTHING in our lives.  Want them to also recommend on other topics as well, without input from others?

I think not, wouldn't you agree?  No one on this thread is discounting them, just the fact some feel they are the final word in the matter.


----------



## the 48th regulator (20 Nov 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Sorry it came across that way, Tess.



Roger, I too may have come across to strong.  Trust me when I say I know you have a very tough job, all of the first responders do.

Just hoping there is more of a balance, that's all.


----------



## ballz (20 Nov 2016)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Well Ballz and Tescione I just happen to work in the field and have for close to 30 years.  When I start posting on how to be an Infantry guy or how to put lights on a stage then I would expect you to correct my stuff.     But obviously between reading, and your limited exposure to drugs and addicts, you know more then I could have possibly learned in 30 years, but carry on.......



Bruce, it's not that I don't value your perspective. I very much do, I value all of them. But this is not the same comparison. Perhaps you could tell me more about what a prison guard does and it will make more sense to me. But, the way I see it.... this is like you having a foreign policy opinion, and me pretending to be the authority on foreign policy because I have to be on the shitty end of the stick that deals with the *results* of foreign policy.

You, as a prison guard, are on the shitty end of drug legislation, just like I, as an infanteer, am on the shitty end of foreign policy. No doubt, having this perspective makes me passionate about foreign policy just like having your perspective makes you passionate about drug legislation.

However, I am not going to tell anybody that they should listen to me about foreign policy based solely on me being the guy that deals with the shitty end of it.

*Full disclosure... I have not had a tour so I haven't actually gotten to deal with the shitty end of foreign policy. But I hope you can catch my drift.



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> When it comes to the effects of drugs and topics like decriminalizing or free injection sites in Canada etc.. I think input from Police, Corrections, Paramedics and those in the Medical field carry quite a bit of weight.  I never even considered police and medics were at such a risk of secondary exposure and corrections officers get a ground zero look at this stuff without rose coloured glasses.



Indeed, their opinions carry weight and an important perspective that we can't get just by analyzing statistics.

But there is much more to this than just looking at the end results... what *causes* the end result that they have to deal with? What can we change so that their job is less hazardous, so that their job is less burdensome, so that the ER is not packed with druggies?

To me, everyone seems *unwilling to consider* the effect that prohibition has had on the *results* that LEOs and medical personnel deal with. It is that unwillingness to even consider it that is causing the strife in this thread.

As for the strife, I hope we are now on the other end of it...


----------



## McG (21 Nov 2016)

So, I get that there is a debate where not everyone agrees how narcotics and opiates should be handled.

But going to the specifically the stuff this thread is about - that stuff is a hazard that should force first responders into HAZMAT/CBRN gear to enter the environment that has this stuff in it.

We have prohibited toxic substances in this country.  Are we saying that, once a person decides to recreationally consume something, such prohibitions should come off?


----------



## mariomike (21 Nov 2016)

For statistical comparison, I read that in the US, "More than 1.5 times as many people died from overdoses than motor vehicle collisions (MVCs) in 2014."

"Carfentanil - 100 times stronger than fentanyl-has also begun appearing on the scene."
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Carfentanil&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=9gUzWNnjJIaN8Qe7uroY&gws_rd=ssl

"The epidemic began in the mid-1990s with the introduction of OxyContin." 
See, our "OxyContin Epidemic" discussion,
http://army.ca/forums/threads/102473.0/nowap.html

"Between 2004 and 2013 there was a 41% increase in the reported number of people dying from overdose in Toronto."


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Nov 2016)

There is a possibility that pot has been laced with fentanyl

http://www.news1130.com/2016/11/20/insite-says-found-pot-laced-fentanyl/


----------



## the 48th regulator (21 Nov 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> There is a possibility that pot has been laced with fentanyl
> 
> http://www.news1130.com/2016/11/20/insite-says-found-pot-laced-fentanyl/



Not according to Police and Health experts;

Premier Clark's claim pot laced with fentanyl not true, say police


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Nov 2016)

Also what is not being discussed is the why? Why do people feel the need to alter their mental state with drugs of any kind?

Some just will and we need to recognize that. Others may need interventions - but they will not quit until they are ready to quit, not when we say they should quit.


----------



## mariomike (21 Nov 2016)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Also what is not being discussed is the why? Why do people feel the need to alter their mental state with drugs of any kind?



The "why" question has been studied by many learned experts,

"Why do people use drugs."
https://www.google.ca/search?q=why+do+people+use+drugs&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=EiMzWOW4BoyN8Qekw6Yo&gws_rd=ssl#q=why+do+people+drugs
"About 44,400,000 results."


----------



## Lumber (21 Nov 2016)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Also what is not being discussed is the why? Why do people feel the need to alter their mental state with drugs of any kind?
> 
> Some just will and we need to recognize that. Others may need interventions - but they will not quit until they are ready to quit, not when we say they should quit.



Considering the number of people that like to drink alcohol recreationally, can we not just conclude that it's just part of the human condition to want to get f***ed up?

You can extend this to methods other than alcohol. If you ask people who exercise or play sports why they enjoy it so much, they'll say that they get a real rush ("a high") from the completion, form the burn, form the pump, etc. You see the same thing in people who participate in extreme sports. As I'm sure most of you would agree, you get a huge rush (of euphoria?) when you get to the bottom of a ski hill after carving a sick line. 

Alcohol and drugs are just the lazy man's way of getting that rush.

Maybe? I'm just throwing this out there...


----------



## Chispa (21 Nov 2016)

John Tescione said:
			
		

> Not according to Police and Health experts;
> 
> Premier Clark's claim pot laced with fentanyl not true, say police



That's just like in Nam word got around the VC laced weed with chemicals too make US Force passive,  [lol:

I heard when the plant is weak in TH they spray stuff, you'll know coming down you get a heck of a headache.....

C.U.


----------



## the 48th regulator (21 Nov 2016)

Chispa said:
			
		

> That's just like in Nam word got around the VC laced weed with chemicals too make US Force passive,  [lol:
> 
> I heard when the plant is weak in TH they spray stuff, you'll know coming down you get a heck of a headache.....
> 
> C.U.



The process of making THC into an aerosol form is so expensive and time consuming, that it would not be cost effective to "Spray" plants.  Just another urban legend, that does NOT happen.


----------



## Chispa (21 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> Yes, the person actually bringing another way to combat this drug epidemic for discussion is self-righteous, nevermind those who can't do anything better than try to shout people down with "drugs are bad."
> 
> Do you have anything of interest to add to the discussion or are you just doing your usual post a sarcastic remark that the majority will appreciate and then ducking out? :
> 
> ...




PBA with BP the paralysed side of my face slowly rejuvenated a month ago, with dyslexia, it really surfaces some days, therefore any misunderstanding just ask....



Well for over a decade two camps have vigorously argued on lifting prohibition on all drugs; however in my case there’re 3 sides to every coin. 

Can we kindly stop the stick poking, a $hit I forgot, in Canada/USA you have freedom of expression or speech……..

Now what I contend is that my body is my own, at least I have always so regarded it. If I do harm through my experimenting with it, it is I who suffers, not the state. Mark Twain
The New York Times February 28, 1901.

Are U aware the law applies only too Users with “possession of small amounts,” drug pusher, etc., are not exempt from prosecution and extended Jail sentences? You’re only using a questionable study “Portugal” and just made aware of the Wiki page which I posted quickly, providing a debatable reference. Post Portugal prohibition lifted drug use alarmingly went up for 6 years, countless of past studies conclude the EU model wouldn’t work in North America. 

“Trend data from Portugal shows how levels of drug use changed in the years following decriminalisation in 2001. Although levels of drug use rose between 2001 and 2007, use of drugs has since fallen to below 2001 levels. It is clear that there has not been a lasting and significant increase in drug use in Portugal since 2001,” the report says.  https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/30/drug-laws-international-study-tough-policy-use-problem

Assuming, same can be said on your pro legalise all drugs, obscured by certain facts….the roots….legalised might not be relevant…monkey see monkey do…USA/Canada, littered with professionals, doctors, teachers, professors, academics, artists, etc., which are perpetual drug/alcohol users. True some have recreationally used a few times then stopped, although I have seen, heard, (ca 4+ decades) many start using only on Friday, within a month Fri – Sun., leading to addiction.

My wig wang understanding humans are wired for “addiction” deriving from a neuron mini-volt release captured by cell receptors releasing a pleasurable sensation. Addiction metamorphosis’s into many forms, drugs, alcohol is certainly not the main trigger. While developing a sense of reservation we’re easily manipulated, motivated, especially with encouraging friends, etc. It’s my understanding in the past decade drug use and abuse has grown in Canada. Although with minimal understanding I’m certainly no expert in this subject however I see relevance in addiction & self-righteous….. 


Oxford Scholarship online: Self-addiction and Self-righteousness 1 by David Brin: DOI:10.1093/acprofso/9780199738571.003.0062….

The word “addiction” appears to limit our perception of a much wider realm—general behavioral reinforcement within the human brain. If neurochemical processes reinforce “good” habits such as love, loyalty, and joy in music or skill, then addiction should be studied in a larger context of both harmful and wholesome reinforcement triggers, their commonalities and differences. Self-righteousness and indignation may sometimes become pernicious addictive habits, arising as much from chemical need as from valid concerns about unfair actions. Among other outcomes, this may cause pathologically altruistic behavior. Indignation addiction may underpin the obstinate behavior of those on both the far left and far right of the political spectrum. Moderate-progressives who seek problem-solving pragmatism may get a boost if it were openly demonstrated that the self-righteous mental state is reinforced chemically by hijacking internal addiction mechanisms.

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprofso/9780199738571.001.0001/acprof-9780199738571-chapter-005


An Open Letter to Researchers of Addiction, Brain Chemistry, and Social Psychology
By David Brin, Ph.D.

For years I've followed advances that investigate reinforcement processes in the human brain, especially those involving dopamine and other messenger chemicals that are active in mediating pleasure response. One might call this topic chemically-mediated states of arousal that self-reinforce patterns of behavior.

Of course, what this boils down to -- at one level -- is addiction. But not only in the sense of illegal drug abuse. In very general terms, "addiction" may include desirable things, like bonding with our children and "getting high on life." These good patterns share with drug addiction the property of being reinforced by repeated chemical stimulus, inside the brain……...


The Most Common (but Unstudied) Form of Self-Addiction

I want to zoom down to a particular emotional and psychological pathology. The phenomenon known as self-righteous indignation.

We all know self-righteous people. (And, if we are honest, many of us will admit having wallowed in this state ourselves, either occasionally or in frequent rhythm.) It is a familiar and rather normal human condition, supported -- even promulgated -- by messages in mass media.

While there are many drawbacks, self-righteousness can also be heady, seductive, and even... well... addictive. Any truly honest person will admit that the state feels good. The pleasure of knowing, with subjective certainty, that you are right and your opponents are deeply, despicably wrong.  http://www.davidbrin.com/addiction.html

http://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr2014/World_Drug_Report_2014_web.pdf


I have allot more, my eyes are irritated, watering after all of this......


C.U.


----------



## mariomike (21 Nov 2016)

Chispa said:
			
		

> Now what I contend is that my body is my own, at least I have always so regarded it. If I do harm through my experimenting with it, it is I who suffers, not the state. Mark Twain
> The New York Times February 28, 1901.



But, what could happen to a guy back then? Get drunk and fall off your horse?  

If the fall didn't break your neck and kill you, you were probably on your own for the medical bills.


----------



## Chispa (21 Nov 2016)

John Tescione said:
			
		

> The process of making THC into an aerosol form is so expensive and time consuming, that it would not be cost effective to "Spray" plants.  Just another urban legend, that does NOT happen.



Not TH aerosol, that would be $$$......Google; aerosol products sprayed on weed to make it stronger or smell better.


C.U.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Nov 2016)

From semi-legal pot http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/investigations/globe-investigation-whats-in-your-weed-we-tested-dispensary-marijuana-to-findout/article31144496/

Canadian pot up to 24% THC
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-208-potent-pot-s-preeminence-befriending-racists-sean-michaels-love-of-theremin-and-more-1.2905476/potent-pot-how-marijuana-got-so-strong-and-what-it-means-for-legalization-1.2905483


----------



## the 48th regulator (21 Nov 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> From semi-legal pot http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/investigations/globe-investigation-whats-in-your-weed-we-tested-dispensary-marijuana-to-findout/article31144496/
> 
> Canadian pot up to 24% THC
> http://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episode-208-potent-pot-s-preeminence-befriending-racists-sean-michaels-love-of-theremin-and-more-1.2905476/potent-pot-how-marijuana-got-so-strong-and-what-it-means-for-legalization-1.2905483



That is called breeding, and legal LPs do not spray.  I know the industry, I have the privilege of knowing LPs, and I have met the top grower of Cannabis in Canada.

There is a huge difference with growing them "High" and spraying.  The dispensaries that you linked to are the illegal ones, that use herbicides and pesticides that are not approved.  This has NOTHING to do with the Terpene content of the product, other than to push the grow time limits.  Big difference from "Spraying" things on it, Fentatnyl or otherwise.  Higher levels of Terpenes are done by using growing methods that EVERY farmer uses on their crops.  Natural and on modified.

Thank you 

Tess


----------



## Chispa (21 Nov 2016)

John Tescione said:
			
		

> That is called breeding, and legal LPs do not spray.  I know the industry, I have the privilege of knowing LPs, and I have met the top grower of Cannabis in Canada.
> 
> There is a huge difference with growing them "High" and spraying.  The dispensaries that you linked to are the illegal ones, that use herbicides and pesticides that are not approved.  This has NOTHING to do with the Terpene content of the product, other than to push the grow time limits.  Big difference from "Spraying" things on it, Fentatnyl or otherwise.  Higher levels of Terpenes are done by using growing methods that EVERY farmer uses on their crops.  Natural and on modified.
> 
> ...




That's my understanding the high % levels of T depends on plant strain, feeding method, etc., for growing 24-8-16 = 3-1-2....flowering 15-30-15 some prefer 10-30-10 or 1-3-1........

C.U.


----------



## ballz (21 Nov 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> So, I get that there is a debate where not everyone agrees how narcotics and opiates should be handled.
> 
> But going to the specifically the stuff this thread is about - that stuff is a hazard that should force first responders into HAZMAT/CBRN gear to enter the environment that has this stuff in it.
> 
> We have prohibited toxic substances in this country.  Are we saying that, once a person decides to recreationally consume something, such prohibitions should come off?



This is a good point to consider... especially considering as we stand today (all things remaining prohibited and likely to stay that way for a loooong time), this hazard is going to become more and more for our first responders.

I personally would have no issue with some sort of outlined "here is what our first responders cover... and here's what they don't" guidelines. It sounds like our first responders are also sick of bailing out the idiots that get themselves in these situations by their own stupidity. In a private market, I am quite sure private companies would offer paramedic services for "x,y,z" but not "a,b,c." I don't see why it should be any different for government-insured healthcare... government health plans already don't provide certain services, I think it would be more than fair to say "if you use x,y,z, substance, you are not entitled under this plan to be rescued under our plan." Unfortunately, I suspect the first responders will confirm for us that they usually don't know these kind of specifics of what they are going into before they get on the scene, so this idea may be a bit of a pipe dream...

Remaining on the topic of prohibition vs non-prohibition.... The more f**ked up and deadly these toxins people decide to consume become, the more at risk first-responders become. As I said earlier, I do believe that these most effed up drugs are a *result* of prohibition, and so I do think that legalizing narcotics would result in less risk of first responders being exposed to some of these crazy things. In saying that, I also don't think that keeping them prohibited is protecting our first responders.


----------



## mariomike (21 Nov 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> I am quite sure private companies would offer paramedic services for "x,y,z" but not "a,b,c."



No idea about out of town, but never going to happen in Toronto. If you call 9-1-1 in this town, you will be riding in the back of one of our heaps.

TFD would take it over before they would ever let privates get a piece of the action. Even during SARS they didn't give up calls. 
And we already won the battle to remain independent of TFD.

TPS is the sole provider of emergency medical response for the City of Toronto. 

The City of Toronto has operated the ambulance service directly on an uninterrupted basis since 1883. Full-time emergency service since 1888.

130 years of tradition unimpeded by progress!  



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> It sounds like our first responders are also sick of bailing out the idiots that get themselves in these situations by their own stupidity.



I apologised for calling them skells in mixed company. It showed a lack of empathy. They are our customers, our bread and butter.  
Stupidity? We called that Job Security.  



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I suspect the first responders will confirm for us that they usually don't know these kind of specifics of what they are going into before they get on the scene, so this idea may be a bit of a pipe dream...



Tones go off. Doors go up. Wheels rolling within 60 seconds. That's the only sure thing.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Nov 2016)

Chispa said:
			
		

> In BC, instead of prescribing methadone too addicts, heroin is given free of charge; investigation reveals they do not like the high of methadone and sell it for heroin.
> 
> 
> My relationship with my daughter is better than it's ever been," says James, 48. But James says it wasn't so long ago, her days were spent doing absolutely anything to score heroin. She used to steal hundreds of dollars' worth of meat from grocery stores and sell it on the streets. She even stole from Tia. "I took $500 out of her account and because of the lovely girl that she is, she never wanted to make me feel bad," James says. "If someone had told me I would do something so despicable — I never would have believed it."
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/crosstown-clinic-heroin-addiction-1.3779768



Just going through these examples and stories.
This mom stole $500 from her 24 year old daughter who has tumours growing on her spine and brain to support her drug habit. Now she gets free heroin twice a day and we're supposed to feel happy for her because she has a great relationship with her daughter? What a POS.


----------



## Chispa (22 Nov 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> But, what could happen to a guy back then? Get drunk and fall off your horse?
> 
> If the fall didn't break your neck and kill you, you were probably on your own for the medical bills.



True: It's my understanding pre and post 1900 in the US/Canada, you generally paid Med bills, although in big cities for the mentally, etc., religious, privet organisations, public fund raisers with minimal amount contributed by the state, helping those without the means of payment. In Montreal by 1900 medical buildings were erected by the above mention, some facilities housed just commoners run by nuns, or first 2-3 floors were large wards the rest privet rooms reserved for those with $$$. During and post Second Anglo Boer War (SABW) or Second South African War (SSAW), seeing the need more medical facilities were established throughout the city, for all those returning from war, considering some returned 5+ years post war, all medical expenses free of charge; read this was same in Toronto... This carried on during FWW......

If I do harm through my experimenting with it, it is I who suffers, not the state.

Could be MT., was pointing to; “If I do harm through my experimenting,” not same as falling off a horse and paying med bills, more if he did harm like stealing, hurting, killing, etc.


C.U.


----------



## Chispa (22 Nov 2016)

Two more die in Winnipeg from fentanyl, third in critical!

Police say fentanyl is suspected in the fatal overdoses of two men Saturday.

Police were called to the Mariaggi Hotel on McDermot Avenue around 12:30 p.m. after staff found a 30-year-old man dead in his room. At 9:30 p.m. police and paramedics were called to a Kinlock Lane home after receiving a report of two males “in medical distress.” A 22-year-old man died in hospital and a 21-year-old man remains in serious to critical condition.

Drugs and drug paraphernalia seized from both locations suggest fentanyl as the possible cause of death, said Winnipeg Police Service spokesman Const. Jason Michalyshen.

“All arrows are pointing in that direction at this point,” he said. “I think it’s quite clear what we are dealing with and the epidemic we are seeing in our community.”

The deaths come just days after a man and two women were found dead of a suspected fentanyl overdose in a home in the Maples. “Regardless of what your drug of choice is, if it’s contained within, and you don’t know it, it could kill you,” Michalyshen said.

“Criminal charges aren’t our priority here,” he said. “Our bigger and larger priority is what happened to these individuals? Are there other individuals we need to talk to? What is going on in our community and why are we talking about this day in day out week after week? I know we all want answers but I think the reality is it is going to take time before there are any significant changes.”

Fentanyl is being found in cocaine and other powder drugs which have been “cut” or adulterated with other substances by dealers to boost profits. “Sadly these individuals aren’t concerned about the safety and well being of their customers,” Michalyshen said. “This is about the almighty dollar.” The growing opioid crisis has the potential to strike anyone, from regular drug users to curious teens and the people close to them, Michalyshen said.

“Each and every one of these instances should raise the eyebrows of every single Winnipeger, every single Manitoban, that this is s a problem we need to deal with, not just by law enforcement,” he said.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2016/11/21/two-more-die-from-fentanyl-third-in-critical



C.U.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (22 Nov 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> . . . lack of empathy. They are our *customers*, our bread and butter.  . . .



[Pedantic gene moment]   Customers?  I don't know the expected terminology in your former service or the current billing/funding procedures for EMS in Ontario, but I would expect that "client" would be a more appropriate term.   Clients are "users" of professional (and other) services; customers are "buyers" of goods and services.  While they "may" be one and the same, most medical services (including EMS) in Canada are directly purchased by a government entity for the end beneficiary, often without involvement of the end user in that payment process.   [/pedantic gene moment]


----------



## mariomike (22 Nov 2016)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Customers?



Customers.
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=9cf41bebbb176410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD


----------



## mariomike (26 Nov 2016)

Keeping them busy in Vancouver,

911 overdose calls break B.C. records, users 'going down everywhere'
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-overdose-drugs-fentanyl-emergency-1.3869423
Bicycle paramedics armed with naloxone combing alleys at epicentre of battle to save lives.


----------



## ballz (4 Dec 2016)

I'm not posting this to start the heated argument again... but perhaps renaming this thread or having some sort of Super Narcotics Legislation Thread that could be used to house these kind of articles (both for and against) is warranted.

*British Medical Journal calls for legalisation of drugs*
_Nick Clegg and Baroness Molly Meacher say the UK’s drug policy has been irrational for 55 years_

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/war-on-drugs-british-medical-journal-heroin-cannabis-cocaine-a7417171.html



> The British Medical Journal has called for the legalisation of illicit drugs for the first time.
> 
> Prohibition laws have failed to curb either supply or demand, reduce addiction, cut violence or reduce profits for organised crime, the journal argued, saying the so-called 'War on Drugs' had been a failure.
> 
> ...



From Wikipedia: The British Medical Journal is a weekly peer-reviewed medical journal. It is one of the world's oldest general medical journals.



As I said, I don't think healthcare professionals are the authority on this, nor police, nor politicians for that matter. I would like to read the actual article in the British Medical Journal to see the arguments that were made but unfortunately it seems protected for subscribers only.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (4 Dec 2016)

ballz said:
			
		

> I would like to read the actual article in the British Medical Journal to see the arguments that were made but unfortunately it seems protected for subscribers only.



You can sign up for a 14 day free trial subscription.


----------



## the 48th regulator (9 Dec 2016)

http://www.campbellrivermirror.com/news/405508356.html#.WEnjetc1omw.facebook


15-year-old busted with 130 grams of fentanyl and other drugs


    by  Alistair Taylor - Campbell River Mirror
    Campbell River posted Dec 8, 2016 at 1:00 PM

Campbell River RCMP Street Crime Unit has made another significant arrest and drug seizure as a result of an ongoing investigation.

On Dec. 2, two people were arrested and charged with drug trafficking, a 15-year-old male from the Lower Mainland and a 27-year-old female from Black Creek.

A search warrant was executed at a local hotel and a significant amount of drugs and cash were seized.

In total, approximately 130 grams of fentanyl, 35 grams of methamphetamine, 35 grams of powder cocaine, 165 grams of crack cocaine, eight grams of MDMA, and 15 grams of marijuana.

The seizure, including a large amount of cash and a vehicle, has a street value of approximately $65,000.

“The reduction of organized crime is a priority of the RCMP. Campbell River street crime unit continues to focus on ensuring they intercept a strong establishment of a drug trade with influences from the lower mainland. These continued arrests have a waterfall effect on the crime rate in the city and ensure we maintain a safe community,” says Consts Sara Clark, media relations officer for Campbell River RCMP.

Both the male and the female are expected to appear in court later this month


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Dec 2016)

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/edmonton/frantic-efforts-to-save-man-overdosing-on-fentanyl-captured-on-rcmp-video-1.3889321


Hard to imagine being a cop and having to deal with these morons every day.


----------



## RedcapCrusader (10 Dec 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/edmonton/frantic-efforts-to-save-man-overdosing-on-fentanyl-captured-on-rcmp-video-1.3889321
> 
> 
> Hard to imagine being a cop and having to deal with these morons every day.



Considering that in Alberta, pharmacies are obligated to give out Narcan/Naxolone kits free of charge, no questions asked, it's incredibly difficult.

The people who know better and are willingly partaking in fentanyl are the ones getting the kits and ending up a major toll on our healthcare system... Only to return later having overdosed, usually for the 5th or 6th time. Most fentanyl users can't get the narcan into themselves fast enough. 

The ones who don't know better and don't know what they're getting into are the ones that end up dead.


----------



## Jarnhamar (10 Dec 2016)

LunchMeat said:
			
		

> Considering that in Alberta, pharmacies are obligated to give out Narcan/Naxolone kits free of charge, no questions asked, it's incredibly difficult.


Isn't this just enabling people to use more drugs? 
I bet those kits aren't cheap.


----------



## medicineman (10 Dec 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Isn't this just enabling people to use more drugs?
> I bet those kits aren't cheap.



Social Darwinism isn't in the Liberal lexicon...

MM


----------



## mariomike (10 Dec 2016)

He's not dead. Let's break out the Narcan...  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJ8c0rWJsk


----------



## medicineman (10 Dec 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> He's not dead. Let's break out the Narcan...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXJ8c0rWJsk



That scene was even funnier when described in the novel  :nod:

MM


----------



## the 48th regulator (10 Dec 2016)

Deadly like never before: fentanyl in Ontario
​


----------



## Colin Parkinson (12 Dec 2016)

and this is from 2013, I bet the numbers of OD are much higher now.


https://mises.org/blog/dea-releases-new-drug-overdose-death-figures-guns-safer-prescription-drugs


----------



## mariomike (12 Dec 2016)

The Blog says accidental gun fatalities and homicides. I wonder if that includes gun suicides? We were sent into a lot of those. 

Auto fatalities are down,
https://army.ca/forums/threads/100194.0
https://army.ca/forums/threads/121479.0

In Toronto, pedestrian fatalities have increased dramatically.

Across America now, a needle in the hand of an addict is more lethal than a gun in the hand of a criminal.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2016/12/10/when-needle-more-deadly-than-gun/KXb5EV6Tt3aP3uCgQlJtsM/story.html


----------



## Dissident (12 Dec 2016)

Sometimes Narcan, sometimes Narcan't.


----------



## ModlrMike (12 Dec 2016)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> Sometimes Narcan, sometimes Narcan't.



I'm stealing that for use at work. Might even make a good t-shirt.


----------



## medicineman (12 Dec 2016)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I'm stealing that for use at work. Might even make a good t-shirt.



I second that...should be a stamp as well for COD on the Death Certificate.

MM


----------



## OldSolduer (12 Dec 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Isn't this just enabling people to use more drugs?
> I bet those kits aren't cheap.



Yet if you need epi pens you pay for them.


----------



## medicineman (12 Dec 2016)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Yet if you need epi pens you paya lot for them.



FTFY.

MM


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Dec 2016)

Drug users who overdose should be forced to pay for the Narcan.


----------



## mariomike (12 Dec 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Drug users who overdose should be forced to pay for the Narcan.



They haven't for the last 30 years EMS has been giving it.


----------



## mariomike (13 Dec 2016)

British Columbia

The fentanyl crisis in B.C. is not slowing down and paramedics say they are not receiving enough resources from the province to fight overdoses properly.
http://www.metronews.ca/news/vancouver/2016/12/13/bc-paramedics-call-for-more-resources-to-fight-overdoses.html
B.C. Emergency Health Services says it has already added 10 ambulances and 54 paramedics since January

More cars, more cars, more cars,....


----------



## McG (13 Dec 2016)

I bet Darwin would have a different suggestion to the problem.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Dec 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> I bet Darwin would have a different suggestion to the problem.



Without wanting to sound too much like an ass I was thinking the same. It seems like a self-correcting problem of sorts to me


----------



## mariomike (13 Dec 2016)

I didn't usually mind the ODs, because most were skinny. 

It was these people who challenged me more.


----------



## mariomike (23 Dec 2016)

Users overdose minutes after cashing assistance cheques: Surrey paramedic
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/users-overdose-minutes-cashing-assistance-012743771.html

We used to call it, "Welfare Weekend".


----------



## CBH99 (23 Dec 2016)

I'm glad you guys said it first, as I didn't want to sound as cold hearted as I usually do.

Seems like a self correcting problem...


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Dec 2016)

Turns out my friend's younger brother is one of the OD deaths, nice guy but doing drugs and OD.


----------



## mariomike (11 Dec 2017)

OD in a CVS Pharmacy in Detroit. Watch his friend panic and try to give medical care, a Pharmacist with no Narcan, an EMS crew who has seen this a million times and great commentary from the person filming it who knows exactly what is going on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtMZyFggnoA

Nice touch at the end by the patient, who was an inch away from death, to remember to raise his arms in victory for cheating the reaper today. EMS will see him at his next OD.


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## mariomike (26 Dec 2017)

Job security,

People are now smoking a combination of meth and crystallized bug spray.
http://wjhl.com/2017/12/26/wasp-dangerous-new-drug-mixture-causes-psychotic-episode-for-lawrence-county-man/

Like, who hasn't?

Or, they just do the Fentanyl and get it over with already.


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## ModlrMike (26 Dec 2017)

Meth now seems to be the drug of choice in Winnipeg. Yes, let's go back to opiates. Much easier to deal with.


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## medicineman (26 Dec 2017)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Meth now seems to be the drug of choice in Winnipeg. Yes, let's go back to opiates. Much easier to deal with.



Yeah - can't cause as much trouble when sleeping...

MM


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## ModlrMike (26 Dec 2017)

I always tell the nurses that the sweet spot for overdose treatment is "sleeping AND breathing".


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## medicineman (26 Dec 2017)

True that...had one that went old school last week - ate 20 T3's and some gabbies...sawed logs all night, but needed a narcan drip to keep the rate up.

MM


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## CBH99 (26 Dec 2017)

Hi guys,

I hope someone here can correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking, as this topic is absolutely outside of my lanes & educated knowledge base.

As many of you know, I work as a civilian investigator for the Alberta Solicitor General's Office, the branch that oversee's many agencies of provincial law enforcement.  (Corrections, Alberta Sheriff's, Provincial Peace Officers, Commercial Vehicle Enforcement, Conservation Enforcement, etc)

Recently it was brought to my attention that a Correctional Peace Officer, whose near-death is being kept quiet due to the circumstances, overdosed on opiates.

My initial impression and opinion (arrogant in hindsight, I fully admit) - was "Ugh, another druggie...great" and all of the opinions that come with that line of thinking.  People who can't make a decision to stay clean, f**k up their lives, and we as a society feel a need to come to their rescue.  Great.

Yet as we looked into his past, it turns out he wasn't a druggie at all.  He was a hard working, nice, clean cut guy who had been with us for several years.  After sustaining a serious & painful knee injury, his doctor had prescribed him opiate-based medication to help with the pain.  This officer used the medication between surgeries, and continued to work without any red flags.

Several months later, the officer realized that when he tried to stop taking them and ween himself off, he couldn't.  He went to his MD, who immediately took him off of the opiates as he had 'become addicted', and started to prescribe him something else instead to help him ween his addiction.  Long story short, this was the beginning of a very quick spiral downwards, in which the officer eventually began using small doses of Meth to fulfill his addition to the opiates.  He was embarrassed and ashamed of this, and kept it successfully hidden from his co-workers for several months.

Recently, and the reason we became aware of the situation, was there was a work related incident, which unfortunately unravelled quite a lot going on with this young man.  My initial attitude was completely wrong, and as I dug deeper & deeper to build the file, I realized this wasn't the kind of person I thought he was, and my attitude is now a total 180' than what it was when I first started looking into this.  (Looking at him now compared to how he looked when he started with us, is almost like looking at 2 different people)

*I don't really know why I'm writing this, other than it seems relevant to the discussion.  And I don't know what my final point is, other than I guess I've recently been enlightened to the idea that not all of these druggies are druggies by choice - something I was arrogantly dismissive of in the past.


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## ModlrMike (27 Dec 2017)

The problem with opiates are many, and not easily discussed in isolation. Drugs like hydromorphone are incredibly effective, but are also quite addictive. But we know this going in - notwithstanding what the initial sales pitches said. Used as directed, for a short period of time, they're safe. However people use them in unsafe ways despite what we tell them. They take too many, too often in the mistaken belief that they're innocuous drugs, or that we're just trying to scare them.

One of the other issues surrounds pain control in general. We call them pain killers, when they are more properly pain relievers. We should never obliterate pain, particularly with opiates. You run the risk of incurring up regulation of the pain receptors, leading to narcotic hyperalgia, or in other words it takes a smaller insult to cause more pain. This leads to greater use of opiates, and the never ending cycle of addiction. In addition, the public has a perception that you need to be pain free. I go to great lengths to try and dispel this myth every day. Feeling pain is normal and healthy. It is actually more difficult to become accredited to prescribed opiates if one accepts that feeling some degree of pain is reasonable. 

That's just a little insight int acute pain. Opiate use in chronic pain is a much harder beast to tame.


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## dapaterson (27 Dec 2017)

At the same time, the hysterics over opiates mean that they can be under-employed in palliative care, where addiction is much less of a concern.  (Redirection of drugs remains a significant issue there, though).


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## medicineman (27 Dec 2017)

I had a patient freak out a couple weeks ago because I was going to give them a small dose of fentanyl when I was reducing a fracture they had...thank you MSM  :, now something that's effective and safe under controlled circumstances are hard to use because these asshats have scared the public.  Had the same problem with propofol and ketamine as well, courtesy of the same idiots doing "public service announcements".

Much like Mike alluded to, I take issue with people thinking that life should be anaesthetic - pain is a normal function of things, it tells you there is a problem or changes in it tell you things are getting better.  Some of these drugs have other issues too - as part of them leaving the system, many cause a pain flare up that lasts about 30 minutes (if they're quick onset/offset, Demerol for instance) that makes people freak out and take more.  Our ER triage systems also need to be revamped somewhat - pain is not a vital sign, contrary to what many people want to tell you, since vital signs are OBJECTIVE signs of how your body is doing physiologically, whereas pain is completely SUBJECTIVE (see this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rWs_tncktU).  When a triage acuity number is placed based solely on that modifier (person with completely normal vital signs but 10/10 pain) and therefore how that symptom is managed, you start a vicious cycle of problems and expectations...which sometimes leads to yelling, screaming, gnashing of teeth and sometimes people being not so politely removed from the ED.  My first two complaints against me when I started in civilian medicine were from people insisting they needed narcotics for their issues (well, one of them was the Mommy of the adult child demanding I give them narcotics - RED FLAG).



			
				CBH99 said:
			
		

> Long story short, this was the beginning of a very quick spiral downwards, in which the officer eventually began using small doses of Meth to fulfill his addition to the opiates.



Small point - meth is a stimulant, whereas opiates are narcotics...they have opposite effects.

 :2c:

MM


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## mariomike (3 Mar 2018)

Paramedics face a spike in drug overdoses on welfare cheque day. aka "Welfare weekend." The answer? Stagger the distribution of welfare checks so addicts can OD in a more organised manner that is spread out throughout the month?

QUOTE

CBC
Mar 02, 2018 
The provincial president of the Ambulance Paramedics and Emergency Dispatchers of B.C. says varying the days when social assistance cheques are issue would reduce the strain on paramedics responding to drug overdoses. 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/welfare-cheques-bc-government-response-1.4559923

CBC
Dec 22, 2016 
Users overdose minutes after cashing assistance cheques: Surrey paramedic
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/users-overdose-minutes-after-cashing-assistance-cheques-surrey-paramedic-1.3909781
'They're going right into the Money Marts and there's a dealer outside waiting for them,' says paramedic

END QUOTE


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## mariomike (6 Mar 2018)

Vancouver

Uncapped syringes have been discovered on stair railings, parking ticket dispensers and in car tires. Now a Paramedic says they have shown up on handicapped automatic door opener push plates.
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/uncapped-syringe-deliberately-placed-in-dtes-paramedic-1.3831691

Could also go in, Your daily 'thing to be afraid of'


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## mariomike (18 Mar 2018)

Need a nice, comfy, safe place to smoke meth? Go to Lethbridge, Alberta. 
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calgary/first-safe-inhalation-site-opens-lethbridge-1.4566743

Using bug spray to get high,
https://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2018/03/18/think-what-its-doing-your-brain-using-bug-spray-get-high/426668002/?from=new-cookie


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## medicineman (19 Mar 2018)

Is there a delivery address for us to send the meth users to in Lethbridge?  Have a few that like using our ER as a motel fairly frequently of late...all might be happier then.

MM


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## mariomike (21 Mar 2018)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Is there a delivery address for us to send the meth users to in Lethbridge?



I read that Philadelphia, PA wants something similar. But, they are meeting with resistance.

The NYC Health Commissioner said she thinks supervised sites for drug addicts to shoot up are an effective way to fight the opioid crisis.

As far as Lethbridge, Alberta is concerned, it would likely take some OD's off the streets. Give the public the perception that something is being done. Just like the old "wet houses". We wouldn't be responding to a street corner. That's probably better optics  as far as the taxpayers are concerned. 

Probably stick modified duty personnel in there. Bad back? Can't lift? Report to opium den #...


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## mariomike (7 Apr 2018)

Police can now give Narcan. If it works out and the person lives ...great. If they give Narcan and the person dies ...they end up under investigation. 
http://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/04/06/siu-second-death-police-administration-naloxone/


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Apr 2018)

No good deed goes unpunished.


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## TheHead (10 Apr 2018)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Police can now give Narcan. If it works out and the person lives ...great. If they give Narcan and the person dies ...they end up under investigation.
> http://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/04/06/siu-second-death-police-administration-naloxone/



I'd like to see the justification for this investigation since Narcan has no negative side effects other than pissing off the user because he's not high anymore.


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## mariomike (10 Apr 2018)

The Ontario government is making a controversial change in the fight against opioid overdoses by asking bystanders to give mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to victims. The Paramedic Assoc of Canada's executive director, Pierre Poirier, pushed for the change.

CBC 

April 10, 2018

Ontario makes controversial change on how to help overdose victims
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ontario-makes-controversial-change-help-080000510.html


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## mariomike (17 Apr 2018)

The reason behind the spike in organ donations? Overdose deaths.  

QUOTE

CNN

Apr.17, 2018

There's a 24-fold rise in organ transplants from drug overdose donors.

A study published in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine on Monday now reveals just how much of an increase there has been in the number of overdose-death donors, from being only 1.1% of all donors in 2000 to 13.4% in 2017.

The study suggests that a rise in organ donations from drug overdose deaths could help America's organ shortage -- 
https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/16/health/drug-overdoses-organ-transplants-study/index.html

END QUOTE


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