# Victoria is facing a public-safety crisis



## daftandbarmy

Poor Peelers.... the Zombie apocalypse is here and they're not getting much help:

Victoria is facing a public-safety crisis​Stephen Andrew / The Times Colonist

A commentary by a Victoria city councillor.

The City of Victoria is in a public-safety crisis. The first step to solving the growing threat to public safety is to acknowledge it as real and take immediate action. If that is not done, it is difficult to see how we can continue to function as a city.

Our police, bylaw and animal-control departments are in crisis. They are understaffed and overworked. The tone from inside these departments is that “we are dropping like flies.”

The numbers speak for themselves. VicPD has 52 members unable to be deployed due to injury or PTSD, including 17 recruits at the Justice Institute. Hours lost to injury and PTSD tripled since 2018, from 1,051 to 3,361.

It’s getting worse, with assaults on officers, including being knocked unconscious, attacked while volunteering and recently even being struck by a stolen vehicle.

VicPD often runs below minimum staffing numbers for patrol shifts. At one time, officers were glad to work overtime, but no more. They are increasingly burnt out and shifts are going unfilled.

The response time for “priority one” calls, such as threat to life or assault, is now 15 minutes.

Chief Del Manak tells council this is “an unacceptable level.” That is an understatement — it is dangerous.

Morale is badly diminished. Numerous sources say from 10 to 18 officers are actively looking to leave VicPD for other departments such as Saanich, Oak Bay, Surrey and the RCMP. Several veteran officers recently said they have never seen morale so low.

The union says part of the problem is that VicPD handles more work per officer than any other capital region police department, and those VicPD officers get less pay.


Comment: Victoria is facing a public-safety crisis


----------



## Brad Sallows

People are under pressure, so those who interact with people get some of the cook-off.

Obvious solution: take some of the pressure off of people.


----------



## YZT580

Seriously, if covid restrictions were cancelled and people were allowed to return to normal living would this result in fewer incidents of rage?  I wonder because it dominates conversation, it dominates the news and it absolutely controls behaviour.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

They are too busy giving people with their dogs off the leash tickets to care.

My wife works in downtown Victoria, it's a shit show of epic proportions most days.  She had the Police at her work a few times last week.

They've hired full time security but they are basically useless.  Personally I see a huge untapped market for professional security services in Victoria.  The problem is nobody is willing to pay for it.... yet.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> The response time for “priority one” calls, such as threat to life or assault, is now 15 minutes.


That would be about double what it was last year.








						3.5 Response Time
					






					vicpd.ca


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Well, some of the city council called for the police to be defunded.

I guess they now get to see what that looks like, up close and personal…


----------



## Good2Golf

SeaKingTacco said:


> Well, some of the city council called for the police to be defunded.
> 
> I guess they now get to see what that looks like, up close and personal…


Kumbaya^-1


----------



## Ostrozac

Brad Sallows said:


> People are under pressure, so those who interact with people get some of the cook-off.
> 
> Obvious solution: take some of the pressure off of people.


That would seem to be a nation-wide solution to what appears to be a city-wide problem.

So what’s specificly going wrong in Victoria? Gang war? The original article cites a union statement that VicPD has higher workloads and lower pay than any other capital region force, but is that true? therepository.ca has Victoria listed as 18th highest  salary in the country for a 1st Class Constable, ahead of Toronto, Fredericton, RNC, VDQ and Halifax, which also police provincial capitals.


----------



## brihard

Ostrozac said:


> That would seem to be a nation-wide solution to what appears to be a city-wide problem.
> 
> So what’s specificly going wrong in Victoria? Gang war? The original article cites a union statement that VicPD has higher workloads and lower pay than any other capital region force, but is that true? therepository.ca has Victoria listed as 18th highest  salary in the country for a 1st Class Constable, ahead of Toronto, Fredericton, RNC, VDQ and Halifax, which also police provincial capitals.


By “Capital Region” I believe it refers to the region around Victoria, BC- the provincial capital. There are a dozen odd municipalities, of which Oak Bay, Saanich, and Central Saanich have their own (slightly higher paid) police forces- though the difference in pay in practical terms is minimal. RCMP I think have most of the rest of the region, and their pay was laughably worse until quite recently, but that’s no longer the case. That said, Victoria Police are within 3% of the pay of the others in either direction. I really don’t think that’s the difference. Rather, Vic have to deal with the ‘urban worst of it’, it seems the political support isn’t there, the west coast is a socially difficult environment to be a cop anyway, and they’ve been forced to watch things get markedly worse without the necessary support to properly act on it. I don’t envy them. At this juncture it would be very appealing to jump so an easier go in another police service, especially if there’s pension portability.


----------



## daftandbarmy

SeaKingTacco said:


> Well, some of the city council called for the police to be defunded.
> 
> I guess they now get to see what that looks like, up close and personal…



The article's author is a Victoria City Council member. 

Interesting....

Councillor Stephen Andrew​
Biography​Stephen joins the City of Victoria as Councillor after winning the 2020 by-election.

The former journalist is best known for his work as a television reporter, anchor and radio talk show host who has worked for several news outlets including CTV, CBC, CHEK, and C-FAX radio. His work has been recognized with 10 Edward R. Murrow Awards and the Jack Webster Award for Best Television Reporting.

Following his journalism Stephen worked as a communication consultant and was the Executive Director of a national cancer patient and caregiver charity. He is a survivor of metastatic cancer with close to 10 years of no evidence of disease and speaks regularly about his experience and offers peer support to fellow patients.

He was instrumental in drawing attention to the need for oral therapy for metastatic kidney cancer patients and convinced the Government of B.C. to pay for the therapy for all B.C. patients.

His work covering the issue of homelessness has been recognized by the Victoria homeless and First Nations community and his reporting on public health is accredited with an Award of Merit from the Public Health Association of British Columbia.

He is the Vice Chair of RunSport, the society that produces the TC10K, a board member of the Greater Victoria Labour Relations Association and he served on the boards of the Victoria Press Club and Lifetime Networks.

Stephen’s volunteer work includes helping to raise money for many community organizations including the Victoria Citizen’s Counselling Centre, the BC-SPCA, Kaleidoscope Theatre, Intrepid Theatre (producers of the Victoria Fringe Festival) and Camp Goodtimes through the Canadian Cancer Society. He is a strong advocate for community and the arts.






						Councillor Stephen Andrew
					






					www.victoria.ca


----------



## mariomike

The Response Times to Priority 1 calls increased from 6.57 in 2016 to 7.55 in 2020.

The article says it is now 15 minutes. Is that from an official source speaking on behalf of the department?


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> The Response Times to Priority 1 calls increased from 6.57 in 2016 to 7.55 in 2020.
> 
> You can get a pizza delivered faster than that.
> 
> The article says it is now 30 minutes. Is that from an official source speaking on behalf of the department?
> 
> You can get a pizza delivered faster than that.



This is from the police department web site:









						3.5 Response Time
					






					vicpd.ca


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> This is from the police department web site:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3.5 Response Time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vicpd.ca


Thanks, that was the source I posted and quoted in Reply #5.

7.55 in 2020.

I was interested in the source quoted in the article saying it is now 15 minutes.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Victoria is cursed with nice weather year round, so if your going to be homeless its a good place to do it.


----------



## FJAG

Colin Parkinson said:


> Victoria is cursed with nice weather year round, so if your going to be homeless its a good place to do it.


That's why they are there in such numbers but lets face facts, much of the violent homeless problem has its genesis from the process of deinstitutionalization which took hold in the country (actually continent) around the mid 1970s and spanned several years. Deinstitutionalization replaced many mental health institutions by a loose grouping of homes, care homes, and half way houses with far too many diverting to the streets, general hospitals and, all too often, jails.

It's politically incorrect to point out that the system, while laudable, may have gone too far and lost control.

The problem that Victoria is, and other cities are, facing is less a police problem but more a mental health services problem.

🍻


----------



## brihard

FJAG said:


> That's why they are there in such numbers but lets face facts, much of the violent homeless problem has its genesis from the process of deinstitutionalization which took hold in the country (actually continent) around the mid 1970s and spanned several years. Deinstitutionalization replaced many mental health institutions by a loose grouping of homes, care homes, and half way houses with far too many diverting to the streets, general hospitals and, all too often, jails.
> 
> It's politically incorrect to point out that the system, while laudable, may have gone too far and lost control.
> 
> The problem that Victoria is, and other cities are, facing is less a police problem but more a mental health services problem.
> 
> 🍻


So long as you'll call that inclusive of addiction, I'd agree.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Back in 2004, visiting Malaysia and my sister inlaw is sort like a Director General level in the Health Ministry, she was talking about how Malaysia was considering going the same way. I told her it was a failure here as the it actually takes more community resources to look after them than in institutions and it's unlikely the governments will fund the municipalities to deal with the issue. but it's a great way to balance your books and remove a problem to another level of government.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin Parkinson said:


> Back in 2004, visiting Malaysia and my sister inlaw is sort like a Director General level in the Health Ministry, she was talking about how Malaysia was considering going the same way. I told her it was a failure here as the it actually takes more community resources to look after them than in institutions and it's unlikely the governments will fund the municipalities to deal with the issue. but it's a great way to balance your books and remove a problem to another level of government.



The Cuckoo's Nest lives!

We have a whole downtown core now dominated by residential institutions. Low rent hotels that have been purchased (at a cost of tens of millions) by the province to house the homeless.... many of whom also happen to have outstanding warrants from across Canada.

They don't have enough qualified staff to man them though so, of course, things are going off the rails on a regular basis.


----------



## FJAG

brihard said:


> So long as you'll call that inclusive of addiction, I'd agree.


Yeah. I'd think so.

🍻


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

FJAG said:


> That's why they are there in such numbers but lets face facts, much of the violent homeless problem has its genesis from the process of deinstitutionalization which took hold in the country (actually continent) around the mid 1970s and spanned several years. Deinstitutionalization replaced many mental health institutions by a loose grouping of homes, care homes, and half way houses with far too many diverting to the streets, general hospitals and, all too often, jails.
> 
> It's politically incorrect to point out that the system, while laudable, may have gone too far and lost control.
> 
> The problem that Victoria is, and other cities are, facing is less a police problem but more a mental health services problem.
> 
> 🍻



I only think this is half true.  Mostly because they didn't have the proliferation of Synthetic Opioids back then.  

Lets call Victoria's problem what it really is: A drug problem.  Everyone knows the West Coast is a huge drug traffickers paradise.    

Once someone has touched heroin or crystal meth, they are basically screwed.  The relapse rate after treatment and getting sober is around 90%.

Yet, everyone seems to want to throw more money at the problem with the same old solutions:  "mental health" funding, "treatment" programs, etc.

I'm not convinced any of our present solutions do anything of any value other than create a "mental health" industry and a bunch of people dependent on the State for handouts.  

I am also not in the camp that "legalizing everything" is the solution either.  We are basically already operating in a World where the consequence of you being a junkie is, legally speaking, zero.



daftandbarmy said:


> The Cuckoo's Nest lives!
> 
> We have a whole downtown core now dominated by residential institutions. Low rent hotels that have been purchased (at a cost of tens of millions) by the province to house the homeless.... many of whom also happen to have outstanding warrants from across Canada.
> 
> They don't have enough qualified staff to man them though so, of course, things are going off the rails on a regular basis.



It's honestly crazy that this is a thing and people somehow think this is a solution.  The Police are basically powerless to do anything either.

At my wife's work not too long ago, a homeless person stole a lady's purse right out of their hands and ran off.  The Lady's husband followed the man to one of the hotels that the City had bought and called the Police.  The Police showed up, wrote a report and then did nothing as they "needed a warrant" to enter the premises LOL.  

Like I said, I think there is a strong case developing for future use of private security in Victoria and not of the typical overweight Mall Cop variety you see either.  

In Spain, homelessness is a massive problem as is squatting.  One of the tactics squatters use is move in to an unoccupied house then demand a ransom from the owner to leave.  

There are now privatized security services that specialize in dealing with removal of homeless and repossession from squatters.  They are run by former military, police, professional fighters and if you run in to the unfortunate event of having squatters move in, they will negotiate and remove them for you.

Here is one such company:  Desokupa tu Vivienda con FueraOkupas. Empresa de Desocupación

BBC Article on the company:



> On Michael's terrace, a group of young men were drying clothes and playing board games, Michael learned. That relieved him, he says.
> 
> "It was not a family that really needed a place to live, they were professional extortionists. So in a way I was relieved, because I knew we could negotiate," he recalls.
> 
> What were Michael's options?
> *He could wait for the courts to make a decision, which could take up to two years. Or he could do it in private.*
> 
> "People advised me to hire a company that specializes in negotiating with squatters to get them out."
> 
> So he contacted OutOkupas .
> 
> *This company began working three years ago and now receives 150 calls a day, says its director, Jorge Fe.* 75% are about tenants who do not pay their rent and 25% about squatters.
> 
> *His employees are boxers and martial arts experts , he explains, men who are not easily intimidated by the people they are trying to evict.*
> 
> Once Michael agreed on the terms, at a fee of 3,500 euros (about US $ 4,100), half paid in advance, FueraOkupas visited his property in Sitges.











						The hard men removing squatters in Spain
					

Some squatters in Spain demand cash before leaving - so eviction firms have arisen to handle the talks.



					www.google.com


----------



## CBH99

There is a pretty big security company called Paladin Security that, I believe, is nation wide and has offices in most cities. 

With the exception of the security guards who work at the hospitals (they have the contract to provide services to Alberta Health Services) - but on the retail side, they are quite exclusively prohibited from actually getting involved.   

They have a heavily enforced “Zero Contact” policy for their employees… as they are there to ‘Call the police, observe, and report.  To also produce a report of any incidents to the manager of the contracting business” - aka the mall… so basically useless.  

If you are being attacked or feel as if you are in danger, don’t expect them to come to your aid.  

(West Edmonton Mall security is the exception.  They undergo quite an impressive training course with refresher training on a consistent basis, usually done in conjunction with Edmonton Police Service.  They have a very close working relationship with EPS as there is a police station right in the mall.)


What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem?  (Open question, don’t worry about being PC)


----------



## mariomike

FJAG said:


> That's why they are there in such numbers but lets face facts, much of the violent homeless problem has its genesis from the process of deinstitutionalization which took hold in the country (actually continent) around the mid 1970s and spanned several years. Deinstitutionalization replaced many mental health institutions by a loose grouping of homes, care homes, and half way houses with far too many diverting to the streets, general hospitals and, all too often, jails.
> 
> It's politically incorrect to point out that the system, while laudable, may have gone too far and lost control.
> 
> The problem that Victoria is, and other cities are, facing is less a police problem but more a mental health services problem.
> 
> 🍻


Deinstitutionalization of Queen St Mental Health Centre and Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital in South Etobicoke discharged thousands of patients.

The experts called it "community based care".

Sounds like the same, or something similar, may have happened in Victoria.



> The response time for “priority one” calls, such as threat to life or assault, is now 15 minutes.



I wonder how many professional bank robbers - like Canada's infamous "Stop Watch Gang - read that?





						Stopwatch Gang - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				





> They were known for robbing banks in two minutes or less





> What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem?


Armed bank guards, for a start.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> Deinstitutionalization of Queen St Mental Health Centre and Lakeshore Psychiatric Hospital in South Etobicoke discharged thousands of patients.
> 
> The experts called it "community based care".
> 
> Sounds like the same, or something similar, may have happened in Victoria.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how many professional bank robbers - like Canada's infamous "Stop Watch Gang - read that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stopwatch Gang - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Armed bank guards, for a start.


Armed bank guards, and the legislation that allows them to use force if need be, AND protects them from prosecution if their actions are deemed reasonable and within the scope of their training.  Totally agreed.  

Something similar for private security (aka rent-a-cops) that handle retail security, site security (office buildings, parkades, etc) - encourage the companies to grow a spine, and actually keep their sites fairly secure.  (They are SECURE-ITY after all.)


In terms of the bigger picture…  Would opening up a centralized facility/institution be helpful?  Rather than this ‘community based care’ - which sounds exactly like it was described above…government passing the problem to another level of government.  

(Hey, it’s October now..may I recommend something akin to The Purge series of movies?)


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

CBH99 said:


> What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem?  (Open question, don’t worry about being PC)



Aggressive enforcement and imprisonment of the perps.  Those who undergo forced treatment graduate to freedom, those who can't remain institutionalized.  This is unlikely to happen any time soon so honestly what it will probably take will be something very bad happening.

This is essentially what has happened in parts of Europe.  The Anti-Okupas companies I mentioned earlier came about as a result of Police and Government inaction in Spain.

Basically communities got sick of the squatters and took matters in to their own hands.  A couple of videos that show neighborhoods removing squatters themselves:


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> (Hey, it’s October now..may I recommend something akin to The Purge series of movies?)


Didn't watch it.

Remember going to the Bronson movies.



> It’s like* killing* roaches – you have to* kill ’em all.* Otherwise,* what’s the use?*


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:


> *Aggressive enforcement and imprisonment of the perps*.  Those who undergo forced treatment graduate to freedom, those who can't remain institutionalizer.  This is unlikely to happen any time soon so honestly what it will probably take will be something very bad happening.



This.

Alot of the pond life are crimimals, but the city council is treating them like in pateints in a giant medical experiment.


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:


> This.
> 
> Alot of the pond life are crimimals, but the city council is treating them like in pateints in a giant medical experiment.


You might want to listen to a podcast about an event in 1436 in Muenster. Dan Carlin is the host.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OldSolduer said:


> You might want to listen to a podcast about an event in 1436 in Muenster. Dan Carlin is the host.



Sorry, I can't hear anything right now over the 'morning chorus' of sirens on the streets below


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Sorry, I can't hear anything right now over the 'morning chorus' of sirens on the streets below


I told you to stop feeling up that ISIS fighter’s wife, who gave you the name “Dark”… 

Those sirens might be there for the two of you!  Quick.  Throw a lamp shade over your head, stand in the corner, and hope it’s Lethbridge police showing up for some odd reason 🤷🏼‍♂️🙏🏻


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> Didn't watch it.
> 
> Remember going to the Bronson movies.


One night a year, all crime is legal.  All crime.  It helps people ‘purge’ it from their system, but I can’t help think it would probably help society purge the algae eaters that hold it back…

As far as fun, cheesy, somewhat creative horror flicks, they aren’t too bad.  Don’t have to pay much attention to them at all to know exactly what’s happening in the ‘story’


----------



## ModlrMike

daftandbarmy said:


> This.
> 
> Alot of the pond life are criminals, but the city council is treating them like in pateints in a giant medical experiment.


That's because everything is now considered  a sickness, which removes accountability from the individual, and transfers it to everyone else.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

In Malaysia if your found high, it's automatic rehab camp for you, recovery rates are about 14%, but it gives them a chance to recovery and be clean for a bit. I have watched some really nice homeless people simply degraded over time and get worse and worse. Really sad. Friend of mine was doing brainscans of homeless people and life on the street eventually does enough damage that even if they are clean, they can never live a normal life again.


----------



## CBH99

Colin Parkinson said:


> In Malaysia if your found high, it's automatic rehab camp for you, recovery rates are about 14%, but it gives them a chance to recovery and be clean for a bit. I have watched some really nice homeless people simply degraded over time and get worse and worse. Really sad. Friend of mine was doing brainscans of homeless people and life on the street eventually does enough damage that even if they are clean, they can never live a normal life again.


What always blew my mind, and I learned to just distance myself in a way from the problem - was the unjust way things seem to work out for some, and not for others.  

I suppose the same can be said for everybody on planet Earth, but in regards to the homeless situation here in Edmonton…

We have a few homeless folks (quite a few) that we know on a first name basis, and guaranteed they will find a way to be remanded in prison for a few months once it gets cold.  Literally they’ll just do something dumb, wait for the police, get arrested, and do the winter months at ERC.  

As odd as it may sound after just saying what I did above, a lot of them are great people.  Friendly, AMAZINGLY talented at artwork (wow!), and - every single one of them does have a noticeable mental health issue.  And every single one of them has a great deal of difficulty accessing any help or programs that are available, for one reason or another.  

They never cause trouble, are great sources of reliable intel, cooperative, etc.  I genuinely enjoy buying them lunch and just chatting.  


On the other hand, we have plenty of folks who are parasites of society.  Constantly being arrested violently, committing violent crimes (petty, but violent in nature), make no effort to rehabilitate themselves or access any programs.  Yet THESE are the ones who somehow receive THOUSANDS of dollars a month from Indian Affairs, and/or their band fund.  

For the ones that found themselves on the right end of the handout conveyor belt, most of them make just as much if not more than I do.  


It’s f**ked…


______


I’ve only been to Malaysia once, and not for long.  But they seemed to have a pretty solid head on their shoulders when it came to this stuff.


----------



## The Bread Guy

CBH99 said:


> ... As odd as it may sound after just saying what I did above, a lot of them are great people.  Friendly, AMAZINGLY talented at artwork (wow!), and - every single one of them does have a noticeable mental health issue.  And *every single one of them has a great deal of difficulty accessing any help or programs that are available, for one reason or another* ...


That.  Right.  There.  We see/hear of all sorts of programming available, but it seems not many people who need them seem to be able to access them.  I see the same issues in my little bit of Ontario as well.  There may be a few who don't want them for whatever reason, but nail hit precisely on the head.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Or they make the programs impossible to access, so that makes it appear that things are being done and the professionals get to have nice jobs while limiting engagements with icky clients.


----------



## Weinie

Colin Parkinson said:


> Or they make the programs impossible to access, so that makes it appear that things are being done and the professionals get to have nice *well paying *jobs while limiting engagements with icky clients.


FTFY.


----------



## Haggis

CBH99 said:


> Armed bank guards, and the legislation that allows them to use force if need be, AND protects them from prosecution if their actions are deemed reasonable and within the scope of their training.  Totally agreed.
> 
> Something similar for private security (aka rent-a-cops) that handle retail security, site security (office buildings, parkades, etc) - encourage the companies to grow a spine, and actually keep their sites fairly secure.  (They are SECURE-ITY after all.)


When the former Public Safety Minister tabled Bill C-21 during the last parliamentary session he made it very clear that Canadians do not "arm themselves for protection from their fellow citizens".

Armoured transport guards are armed for self protection, not the protection of the assets being moved.  Those assets are insured. The same goes for banks.  The liability costs for an unjustified use of force incident would far outweigh the insured loss from a robbery.  Extend that example to shopping malls and the liability, though shared by all the tenants, is hugely increased.

My cousin was the VP of sales for a large farm equipment corporation.  His territory included eastern Europe and the Caucasus region.  They built employee ransom into the cost of every farm implement they sold over there.  Like bank robberies, it's just a cost of doing business.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem?  (Open question, don’t worry about being PC)



OK. It may not be PC, but we called them skells.

There weren't body cams or cell phone cameras back then.
not to suggest the example in this video is the correct solution,
A Dallas paramedic kicked a homeless man in the face​






FJAG said:


> , much of the violent homeless problem has its genesis from the process of deinstitutionalization which took hold in the country (actually continent) around the mid 1970s and spanned several years.


I had a front row seat for that.

But, Mayor Bill Dennsion said it really went back to 1968 with the arrival of tens of thousands of draft dodgers in Canada.
"Hippies and deserters are Toronto's only problem."

Presumably, some went to Vancouver.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> OK. It may not be PC, but we called them skells.
> 
> There weren't body cams or cell phone cameras back then.
> not to suggest the example in this video is the correct solution,
> A Dallas paramedic kicked a homeless man in the face​


I didn’t work EMS for very long, but even in the short time that I was there I still had a few calls where we (police and EMS) had combative patients, combative partners/families, etc.  

When a combative person looks up at you, and starts to get back up - it isn’t unreasonable to try and quickly make sure they stay down.  Ofcourse it’s always luck that of an entire situation, the kick is what the camera saw.


----------



## CBH99

Haggis said:


> When the former Public Safety Minister tabled Bill C-21 during the last parliamentary session he made it very clear that Canadians do not "arm themselves for protection from their fellow citizens".
> 
> Armoured transport guards are armed for self protection, not the protection of the assets being moved.  Those assets are insured. The same goes for banks.  The liability costs for an unjustified use of force incident would far outweigh the insured loss from a robbery.  Extend that example to shopping malls and the liability, though shared by all the tenants, is hugely increased.
> 
> My cousin was the VP of sales for a large farm equipment corporation.  His territory included eastern Europe and the Caucasus region.  They built employee ransom into the cost of every farm implement they sold over there.  Like bank robberies, it's just a cost of doing business.


Fair enough, and solid points.  

In the context of reversing the trend in Victoria, as per some of the issues mentioned both in the article and upthread, I was/am trying to brainstorm some easy to implement solutions that could help start the momentum.  

You have respectable law enforcement experience, and your posts are always reasonable.  


I’d be curious to hear some thoughts or ideas of yours, if Victoria city council approached you and said “Haggis, what do we do to fix this?”


----------



## RedFive

In BC, two major asylums were closed, Riverview in Coquitlam and Tranquille in Kamloops. Their residents referred to "care in the community".

I can, in just my one little patrol zone, think of at least 5 individuals who require commitment to a similar facility, with little chance of ever being able to leave once stabilized. Care in the community is a great idea, but it can not and should not be a blanket policy. Mental health is a continuum, the treatments of the same should be similar.

But that would be more money than most people could stomach, even though our current system costs an astounding amount of money. Nobody is willing to see that the expenditure in that department will save exponentially in others, such as Law Enforcement.

Also, people don't like the idea of locking up the mentally ill, but in certain cases that is what is required. The alternative is rampant drug use and petty crime to pay for said drugs. I will clarify I'm not saying throw all the homeless, drug addicted or mentally ill in to an asylum, but a good number would benefit from a short to medium stay in such a facility. Some should never leave.

My solution? Long term care mental health facilities, and the ability of a Judge to sentence people there indefinitely, until released by a competent medical authority.


----------



## OldSolduer

RedFive said:


> In BC, two major asylums were closed, Riverview in Coquitlam and Tranquille in Kamloops. Their residents referred to "care in the community".
> 
> I can, in just my one little patrol zone, think of at least 5 individuals who require commitment to a similar facility, with little chance of ever being able to leave once stabilized. Care in the community is a great idea, but it can not and should not be a blanket policy. Mental health is a continuum, the treatments of the same should be similar.
> 
> But that would be more money than most people could stomach, even though our current system costs an astounding amount of money. Nobody is willing to see that the expenditure in that department will save exponentially in others, such as Law Enforcement.
> 
> Also, people don't like the idea of locking up the mentally ill, but in certain cases that is what is required. The alternative is rampant drug use and petty crime to pay for said drugs. I will clarify I'm not saying throw all the homeless, drug addicted or mentally ill in to an asylum, but a good number would benefit from a short to medium stay in such a facility. Some should never leave.
> 
> My solution? Long term care mental health facilities, and the ability of a Judge to sentence people there indefinitely, until released by a competent medical authority.


I work in a provincial facility and the amount of mental health inmates is rising quite rapidly. 

As for your last line it was that way in Manitoba when I started in 1999 - we had inmates here "at the pleasure of Her Majesty the Queen" in other words indefinitely.


----------



## lenaitch

The deinstitutionalization into the community without adequate community supports has been playing out across the country.  In reality, the Ministry of Health (or whoever managed MH institutions in the various provinces) unloaded its problem onto a bunch of other ministries, government departments and municipalities under the guise of greater humanity.  In reality, for many, it is less humane.

At one posting, the nearest MH facility was about 5 hours away.  Since a committal warrant escort was a road trip to the big city, we often stayed overnight. We we'd get home the next day, the patient had beaten us back; the institution admitted them, assessed them and discharged them with a bus ticket.

I have no no answers, but I know that re-establishing big provincial institutions isn't going to happen in my lifetime.  It will be interesting how well the new 'crisis intervention' teams pan out.  In Ontario, a non-cop, non-MD 'crisis worker' has no authority to compel non-voluntary outcomes and, in some cases, that's what is ultimately needed after all the calm-talking has failed.


----------



## daftandbarmy

lenaitch said:


> The deinstitutionalization into the community without adequate community supports has been playing out across the country.



This is way beyond 'those poor crazy people without help'. It's a crime pandemic that matches the health version, and alot of it is driven by serial criminals who have migrated here from across Canada at the unwitting invitation of Victoria City Council:

Victoria now among most dangerous cities in Canada​Once-placid Victoria sees fourth-highest spike in crime severity index, bucking a trend that saw reported crimes plunge nearly 10 per cent from a year earlier across Canada

Victoria, characterized for decades as a placid and safe city, posted the fourth-highest increase in severe crime across Canada in 2020, bucking a national trend that saw crimes reported to police drop 9.8 per cent from a year earlier.

Statistics Canada released data July 27 showing a crime severity index in the city of Victoria of 168 — significantly higher than the 76 seen in the region as a whole. Victoria’s crime severity index also tops that of Vancouver (105) and the B.C. average (96).

Victoria ranked the fourth-highest in the crime severity index (CSI) among cities profiled, with a 3 per cent year-over-year increase in 2020. The CSI had fallen in 27 of 35 urban centres profiled, according to Statistics Canada data.










						Victoria now among most dangerous cities in Canada
					

Once-placid Victoria sees fourth-highest spike in crime severity index, bucking a trend that saw reported crimes plunge nearly 10 per cent from a year earlier across Canada




					www.westerninvestor.com


----------



## OldSolduer

I've seen MH guys sold down the river and get longer sentences the "normal" ones don't get. Its very unfair where a 25 year old inmate has the cognitive ability of a five year old but his "lawyer" got him seven years. Good job Mr Attorney at Law.

BUT you cut someones head off on a bus you get kid glove treatment.


----------



## RedFive

OldSolduer said:


> I've seen MH guys sold down the river and get longer sentences the "normal" ones don't get. Its very unfair where a 25 year old inmate has the cognitive ability of a five year old but his "lawyer" got him seven years. Good job Mr Attorney at Law.
> 
> BUT you cut someones head off on a bus you get kid glove treatment.


Ideally there would be a severe reduction in the number of mental health cases in prison, because they wouldn't be out committing crimes to fund themselves. They would either be intermittently, or permanently confined to the institution for rehabilitation or, in the worst of cases, a comfortable if confined life protected from harming themselves and kept away from the public.

But I don't run the country, so that's not gonna happen.


----------



## Good2Golf

OldSolduer said:


> BUT you cut someones head off on a bus you get kid glove treatment.


And a name change and a court order prohibiting use of your old head chopping, face eating name…


----------



## Navy_Pete

I remember when Hamilton shut down most of it's MH hospital for it's day patients. There were a few people in the immediate community that we'd regularly run into at Timmies etc who obviously had some issues but were relatively functional. Within a month or so those folks had all fallen apart, and I know at least one of them ended up homeless and turned into that crazy guy that was wandering down the street yelling at shadows until they ended up being committed.

Didn't make sense to me then, and still doesn't now, but can't believe the financial/human cost for only intervening when folks are completely fallen apart is less than helping people out at the start. Seems far better to fund mental health support and provide some social assistance for folks like that living on the margins so they can have some kind of life instead of letting them fall apart and hoping that they don't take other people down with them.


----------



## daftandbarmy

And this is what it looks like when you blend drugged out cyclists with traffic, a couple of pandemics and a great investment in bike lanes. Most of the people in the bike lanes during the work day are stoned out street people commuting around town for whatever reason:

Of course, 911 winds up taking the heat in this case...

GOOD SAMARITAN STUCK ON HOLD WITH 911 AFTER WOMAN STRUCK BY CAR IN VICTORIA​
When a woman on bike was struck by a vehicle in front of Budget Brake and Muffler in downtown Victoria on Thursday morning, staff at the shop jumped into action.

"We were quick on scene and called 911," said Ryan Burghardt, owner of Budget Brake and Muffler.

The problem was, nobody answered.

"Eleven minutes on hold to get through to the ambulance," Burghardt told CTV News.

When someone calls 911, that call is answered by E-Comm. If an ambulance is needed, the call taker will stay on the line and put you through to BC Emergency Health Services (BCEHS).









						Good Samaritan stuck on hold with 911 after woman struck by car in Victoria
					

When a woman on bike was struck by a vehicle in front of Budget Brake and Muffler in downtown Victoria on Thursday morning, staff at the shop jumped into action.




					www.iheartradio.ca


----------



## mariomike

Good2Golf said:


> And a name change and a court order prohibiting use of your old head chopping, face eating name…


"Everybody needs a fresh start once in a while." < sarcasm emoji.


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> And this is what it looks like when you blend drugged out cyclists with traffic, a couple of pandemics and a great investment in bike lanes. Most of the people in the bike lanes during the work day are stoned out street people commuting around town for whatever reason:
> 
> Of course, 911 winds up taking the heat in this case...
> 
> GOOD SAMARITAN STUCK ON HOLD WITH 911 AFTER WOMAN STRUCK BY CAR IN VICTORIA​
> When a woman on bike was struck by a vehicle in front of Budget Brake and Muffler in downtown Victoria on Thursday morning, staff at the shop jumped into action.
> 
> "We were quick on scene and called 911," said Ryan Burghardt, owner of Budget Brake and Muffler.
> 
> The problem was, nobody answered.
> 
> "Eleven minutes on hold to get through to the ambulance," Burghardt told CTV News.
> 
> When someone calls 911, that call is answered by E-Comm. If an ambulance is needed, the call taker will stay on the line and put you through to BC Emergency Health Services (BCEHS).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Samaritan stuck on hold with 911 after woman struck by car in Victoria
> 
> 
> When a woman on bike was struck by a vehicle in front of Budget Brake and Muffler in downtown Victoria on Thursday morning, staff at the shop jumped into action.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.iheartradio.ca


Good thing it was JUST someone being hit by a car… 🙄

Imagine someone is breaking into your house while your little kids are in their beds?  


E-Comm better up it’s game.  That’s pathetic to the point it should be criminal.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> Good thing it was JUST someone being hit by a car… 🙄
> 
> Imagine someone is breaking into your house while your little kids are in their beds?
> 
> 
> E-Comm better up it’s game.  That’s pathetic to the point it should be criminal.



I guess $13M doesn't buy what it used to 

Greater Victoria’s new $13 million E-Comm 9-1-1 call centre up and running​Saanich located building handles 911 calls to 15 police agencies

The new $13 million South Island 911/Police Dispatch Centre held a grand opening in Saanich on Wednesday.
The earthquake proof CRD building has a generator and is designed to act as a post-disaster centre.









						Greater Victoria’s new $13 million E-Comm 9-1-1 call centre up and running - Victoria News
					

Saanich located building handles 911 calls to 15 police agencies




					www.vicnews.com


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> "Eleven minutes on hold to get through to the ambulance," Burghardt told CTV News.


Without knowing the details, how many others called it in at the same time?

When did paramedics arrive after the first call was received?

After the 9-1-1 system was introduced in Metro Toronto in 1982, and later when cell phones became popular, I heard plenty of stories from our Call Receivers about their lines getting jammed by "Good Samaritans" calling in about the same incident.

Not to suggest that is what happened with Mr. Burghardt. But, the thought did cross my mind.


Answer all incoming 9-1-1 calls within three rings or 10 seconds, 90 per cent of the time


----------



## RedFive

E-Comm is just the initial "911, what's your emergency" call centre. Ask for Fire or Ambulance? They route your call appropriately. BC Ambulance Service has their own dispatch centres where qualified paramedics take the phone calls and provide treatment advice as the Ambulance is en route. E-Comm only does dispatching for Police. I'm privileged enough to be in a jurisdiction that has it's own radio room, because from what I've heard it can be painful to have E-Comm as your dispatch centre.

BCAS has been in crisis for years due to mismanagement and poor funding, but the final stroke has been the Covid pandemic, and the thing to bring it to the public's eye was the heat wave this summer where Police and Fire started taking medical calls for service and in some cases transporting for BCAS.


----------



## mariomike

RedFive said:


> BCAS has been in crisis for years due to mismanagement and poor funding,


I remember when the Province of British Columbia took it over in 1974, because someone I knew from the job was hired to go out there and manage it.

The province ( in Ontario, anyway ) only provides 50% of the funding required to operate at the target response time to life-threatening emergency calls within* 12 minutes *90% of the time.  Within city limits.

If a city takes paramedic response times seriously, they have to run it them selves - not the province.
And local taxpayers have to ante up the additional 50%.

Even then, the funding is based upon the census population of a city. Not its business day population.
As a result, there are always more people requiring paramedic services than the system is funded for.

RedFive said:


> BC Ambulance Service has their own dispatch centres where qualified paramedics take the phone calls and provide treatment advice as the Ambulance is en route.


It used to be the highlighted way when I hired on. But, that ended decades ago.

The Call Receivers and Emergency Medical Dispatchers they have now are not paramedics. They belong to a different union.


----------



## Navy_Pete

mariomike said:


> I remember when the Province of British Columbia took it over in 1974, because someone I knew from the job was hired to go out there and manage it.
> 
> The province ( in Ontario, anyway ) only provides 50% of the funding required to operate at a target response time to life-threatening emergency calls within* 12 minutes *90% of the time.  Within city limits.
> 
> If a city takes paramedic response times seriously, they have to run it them selves - not the province.
> And local taxpayers have to ante up the additional 50%.
> 
> Even then, the funding is based upon the census population of a city. Not its business day population.
> As a result, there are always more people requiring paramedic services than the system is funded for.
> 
> RedFive said:
> 
> It used to be the highlighted way when I hired on. But, that ended decades ago.
> 
> The Call Receivers and Emergency Medical Dispatchers they have now are not paramedics. They belong to a different union.



Somewhat related note, the fire code is designed around a 10 minute response time. Which doesn't really make sense for a rural house, and also doesn't make sense for all these stupid subdivisions with their rats maze of streets and small roundabouts on single lane streets that ambulances/fire trucks have to go over.  But there isn't anything to require additional fire proofing if you aren't within that response window. (Doesn't take very much though; a sheet of normal drywall properly installed gives you another 5-10 minutes pretty easily, and the fire rated drywall can have 30 and 60 minute ratings. Also some pretty cool fire resistant insulations you can install that are also pretty good against mold/mildew)

Additionally, multiple studies show that the new engineered wood trusses fail within about 7 minutes of exposure to fire (vs closer to 15 for standard 2x10s) so not uncommon for ground floors with an exposed basement side to collapse even in the best case scenarios for fire response times, and there are whole cities in the US where FFs won't go into newer houses  through the ground floor if they know it's clear of people.

So make sure you can get out your window I guess.


----------



## mariomike

Navy_Pete said,


> Somewhat related note, the fire code is designed around a 10 minute response time.



I guess taxpayers - like ourselves - get what we pay for. Not much the crews can do about it, other than get out of the station ASAP.

Our chute time expectation was 60 seconds between 0700 - 2000 hrs, and 90 seconds between 2000 and 0700.
I was on the bus, so it was a little less stringent.

I looked at the Victoria B.C. Fire Department website. But, saw no mention of response times.





						Victoria Fire Department
					






					www.victoria.ca


----------



## lenaitch

Navy_Pete said:


> Somewhat related note, the fire code is designed around a 10 minute response time. Which doesn't really make sense for a rural house, and also doesn't make sense for all these stupid subdivisions with their rats maze of streets and small roundabouts on single lane streets that ambulances/fire trucks have to go over.  But there isn't anything to require additional fire proofing if you aren't within that response window. (Doesn't take very much though; a sheet of normal drywall properly installed gives you another 5-10 minutes pretty easily, and the fire rated drywall can have 30 and 60 minute ratings. Also some pretty cool fire resistant insulations you can install that are also pretty good against mold/mildew)
> 
> Additionally, multiple studies show that the new engineered wood trusses fail within about 7 minutes of exposure to fire (vs closer to 15 for standard 2x10s) so not uncommon for ground floors with an exposed basement side to collapse even in the best case scenarios for fire response times, and there are whole cities in the US where FFs won't go into newer houses  through the ground floor if they know it's clear of people.
> 
> So make sure you can get out your window I guess.



Yup, and how is a fire crew to know how the house is constructed; engineered joists have been around for about 50 years, more common as years progress.  A neighbour is a city FF and they will no longer enter a house solely to save property.  We had a very new house burn down on our road a couple of years ago (FF welding in garage - oops). Everybody got out and the neighbours were up in arms that the fire crew (volunteer rural dept) fought it defensively.  Why risk a live to save insured property.  Typically, in rural settings, any 10, 15, etc. window is lost.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> What do you guys think some solutions could be to Victoria’s problem?  (Open question, don’t worry about being PC)


I wouldn't know.

But, the situation described on here reminds me of a movie we went to at a drive-in a long time ago.


----------



## Haggis

CBH99 said:


> Fair enough, and solid points.
> 
> In the context of reversing the trend in Victoria, as per some of the issues mentioned both in the article and upthread, I was/am trying to brainstorm some easy to implement solutions that could help start the momentum.
> 
> You have respectable law enforcement experience, and your posts are always reasonable.
> 
> 
> I’d be curious to hear some thoughts or ideas of yours, if Victoria city council approached you and said “Haggis, what do we do to fix this?”


Sorry, this post of yours got away on me.  Lots of OT this week and a double shift yesterday.

I don't have a solution and I don't know what Victoria or BC have tried before.  Perhaps it's time to revisit and maybe revive those programs that have worked in the past, stood the test of jurisprudence but were sacrificed on the PC altar to appease social justice warriors.  Overlay a good, solid, well thought out and defensible comms strategy to educate the public through implementation and continuation to steady state.   It must also be acknowledged that this is not Victoria's problem alone to fix.  Some of those problems lie at the feet of the provincial and federal governments to address on Victoria's behalf.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Haggis said:


> Sorry, this post of yours got away on me.  Lots of OT this week and a double shift yesterday.
> 
> I don't have a solution and I don't know what Victoria or BC have tried before.  Perhaps it's time to revisit and maybe revive those programs that have worked in the past, stood the test of jurisprudence but were sacrificed on the PC altar to appease social justice warriors.  Overlay a good, solid, well thought out and defensible comms strategy to educate the public through implementation and continuation to steady state.   It must also be acknowledged that this is not Victoria's problem alone to fix.  Some of those problems lie at the feet of the provincial and federal governments to address on Victoria's behalf.



They made a movie once with some pretty good ideas


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:


> They made a movie once with some pretty good ideas



I prefer this one:


----------



## medicineman

Could always string up some daisy chains of PROM1's and Claymores in certain parks and alleyways downtown...be a bit messy at first, but the gulls and the ravens will tidy things up pretty quickly.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Cabbie 911:

After 15-minute wait for an ambulance, she called a cab to get to hospital​
When accountant Erin Booth felt faint and disoriented while shopping alone in a Sidney grocery store, she called 911 for help and was put on hold for an ambulance. She waited so long that eventually she took a cab to the hospital.

“I was absolutely shocked,” said Booth. “No one plans on calling 911 so it’s so important people realize having a backup plan might be very important right now while ambulance staffing shortages are worked out.”









						After 15-minute wait for an ambulance, she called a cab to get to hospital
					

When accountant Erin Booth felt faint and disoriented while shopping alone in a Sidney grocery store, she called 911 for help and was put on hold for an ambulance. She waited so long that eventually she took a cab to the hospital.




					www.timescolonist.com
				




And... the beat (ing up) goes on....

Les Leyne: Locking up dangerous people still a no-go despite random attacks​ 
Politicians are leery about the sensitivities around locking up dangerous people with mental health and addiction problems. The preferred alternatives are “complex care,” “super supportive housing,” and other options that stop short of “involuntary care.”

Still, the idea continues to come up, propelled partly by frightening anecdotes of random attacks being reported on city streets.









						Les Leyne: Locking up dangerous people still a no-go despite random attacks
					

Politicians are leery about the sensitivities around locking up dangerous people with mental health and addiction problems.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:


> Les Leyne: Locking up dangerous people still a no-go despite random attacks​
> Politicians are leery about the sensitivities around locking up dangerous people with mental health and addiction problems. The preferred alternatives are “complex care,” “super supportive housing,” and other options that stop short of “involuntary care.”
> 
> Still, the idea continues to come up, propelled partly by frightening anecdotes of random attacks being reported on city streets.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Les Leyne: Locking up dangerous people still a no-go despite random attacks
> 
> 
> Politicians are leery about the sensitivities around locking up dangerous people with mental health and addiction problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


Unfortunately someone will have to be brutally murdered before these idiot politicians do anything. Its not their relatives or friends being harassed by dangerous people. Mark my words as soon as an eminent member of Victoria's "elite" are harmed then it will be a different story.

UNLESS it happens on a Greyhound bus....you get my drift?


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Cabbie 911:
> 
> After 15-minute wait for an ambulance, she called a cab to get to hospital​
> When accountant Erin Booth felt faint and disoriented while shopping alone in a Sidney grocery store, she called 911 for help and was put on hold for an ambulance. She waited so long that eventually she took a cab to the hospital.
> 
> “I was absolutely shocked,” said Booth. “No one plans on calling 911 so it’s so important people realize having a backup plan might be very important right now while ambulance staffing shortages are worked out.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 15-minute wait for an ambulance, she called a cab to get to hospital
> 
> 
> When accountant Erin Booth felt faint and disoriented while shopping alone in a Sidney grocery store, she called 911 for help and was put on hold for an ambulance. She waited so long that eventually she took a cab to the hospital.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And... the beat (ing up) goes on....
> 
> ​


How seriously does BCAS take Response Time?

On Time Performance was the Holy Grail in the city I worked. It was about the only real sure thing in this town.

Performance measurements are available to the public.


			https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/emergency_health/land/responsetime.aspx
		


Does BCAS have anything like that?



OldSolduer said:


> Unfortunately someone will have to be brutally murdered before these idiot politicians do anything. Its not their relatives or friends being harassed by dangerous people. Mark my words as soon as an eminent member of Victoria's "elite" are harmed then it will be a different story.
> 
> UNLESS it happens on a Greyhound bus....you get my drift?



I would vote for you, if I could, Old Soldier.


----------



## OldSolduer

mariomike said:


> I would vote for you, if I could, Old Soldier.


I'm not running for any public office anytime soon.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> They made a movie once with some pretty good ideas



What an artist with a rocket launcher can do.


----------



## RedFive

mariomike said:


> How seriously does BCAS take Response Time?
> 
> On Time Performance was the Holy Grail in the city I worked. It was about the only real sure thing in this town.
> 
> Performance measurements are available to the public.
> 
> 
> https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro/programs/emergency_health/land/responsetime.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> Does BCAS have anything like that?
> 
> 
> 
> I would vote for you, if I could, Old Soldier.


They're beyond that now, just trying to keep the lights on and busses on the road. They'll get to you when they get to you.


----------



## mariomike

> When a BC ambulance is requested to a residence/ workplace, but transportation is refused or not required.



They charge $50. ( If you have a valid BC Care Card. )

50 bucks just to show up, with no transport.

Even if 9-1-1 was called by a third party. Even if you refuse to go. ( Or got tired waiting and called an Uber. )





						Ambulance Fees
					






					www.bcehs.ca
				



​


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Persons without valid B.C. medical coverage (e.g. visitors to BC/non-residents), as well as work-related injuries, claims under RCMP, and other federal agencies.



Rates effective April 1, 2020​*$848* flat fee (ground service)

*$4,394* per hour (helicopter)

*$11* per statute mile (airplane) ($6.94 per kilometre)


----------



## mariomike

RedFive said:


> They'll get to you when they get to you.


Sounds like urban taxpayers in B.C. are going to have to ante up and operate their own departments - if they wish to avoid that.

But, with the Province of British Columbia running the operation ( which from the fees listed sounds pretty lucrative ), I'm not sure if breaking away from BCAS would be politically possible.

I don't know how thorough their record keeping is, but it would be intereting to compare the Unit Hour Utilization ( UHU ) urban vs rural in B.C. and see how Victoria compares with other Canadian cities.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> Sounds like urban taxpayers in B.C. are going to have to ante up and operate their own departments - if they wish to avoid that.
> 
> But, with the Province of British Columbia running the operation ( which from the fees listed sounds pretty lucrative ), I'm not sure if breaking away from BCAS would be politically possible.
> 
> I don't know how thorough their record keeping is, but it would be intereting to compare the Unit Hour Utilization ( UHU ) urban vs rural in B.C. and see how Victoria compares with other Canadian cities.



BC's NDP governments have always had eyes bigger than the stomachs of the taxpayers....

Lawrie McFarlane: When ministers focus on shiny baubles, basic services pay the price​ 
One reason it takes longer to get an ambulance to your door than it takes to deliver a pizza is that vital services are strained past breaking point by inadequate funding, writes Lawrie McFarlane.  Jonathan Hayward, CP


On Aug. 27, a 72 year-old Parksville resident, Chuck Blakey, lay dying on his kitchen floor while family members waited for an ambulance to arrive. When they called 911, they were answered by an operator who put them on hold, and played an automated message over and again.
When finally an ambulance did show up, 30 minutes later and 15 minutes too late, Blakey was dead.

On Sept. 14, a Qualicum Beach man waited in agony for an ambulance to arrive. Ian Weir had been through prostate surgery and his bladder was blocked, allowing only a few drops of blood to emerge.

His wife called 911, and was told she was third in line. Exasperated, she ran to the ambulance station two blocks away where she was met with a chilly response.

An ambulance did at last arrive, 30 minutes later. “Seriously,” Weir said, “if I had a gun that night I would have shot myself.”

Nor were these isolated incidents. A 911 operator told the Times Colonist that the tragedy of a man dying while on hold to the ambulance service is a daily occurrence.

So what is going on? This is the kind of thing you’d expect in a third-world city during a Category 5 hurricane, with a metre of water in the streets and the power lines down.

Part of the answer is that we’ve stretched government to the breaking point, and beyond.

Between 1966 and 1996, there had been a huge expansion in the size and scope of the public sector. But the money wasn’t there to pay for it.









						Lawrie McFarlane: When ministers focus on shiny baubles, basic services pay the price
					

On Aug. 27, a 72 year-old Parksville resident, Chuck Blakey, lay dying on his kitchen floor while family members waited for an ambulance to arrive.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## mariomike

> So what is going on?



Good question.

Work hard all your life. Pay your taxes. Believe the 9-1-1 system will work when you need it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Just another day of 'catch and release' in crazy town-on-sea:


Man released from custody after arrest for firing gun in Victoria street​ 
A man arrested for firing an air-powered handgun outside a supportive housing facility in downtown Victoria has been released from custody with court-ordered conditions.

While the weapon he was using has been seized, the man, who cannot be identified by police as he has not been charged, has been set free with a court date and orders not to possess weapons.









						Man released from custody after arrest for firing gun in Victoria street
					

A man arrested for firing an air-powered handgun outside a supportive housing facility in downtown Victoria has been released from custody with court-ordered conditions.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> Just another day of 'catch and release' in crazy town-on-sea:
> 
> 
> Man released from custody after arrest for firing gun in Victoria street​
> A man arrested for firing an air-powered handgun outside a supportive housing facility in downtown Victoria has been released from custody with court-ordered conditions.
> 
> While the weapon he was using has been seized, the man, who cannot be identified by police as he has not been charged, has been set free with a court date and orders not to possess weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man released from custody after arrest for firing gun in Victoria street
> 
> 
> A man arrested for firing an air-powered handgun outside a supportive housing facility in downtown Victoria has been released from custody with court-ordered conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


He should have been released into the Judge’s custody and recognizance.


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:


> Just another day of 'catch and release' in crazy town-on-sea:
> 
> 
> Man released from custody after arrest for firing gun in Victoria street​
> A man arrested for firing an air-powered handgun outside a supportive housing facility in downtown Victoria has been released from custody with court-ordered conditions.
> 
> While the weapon he was using has been seized, the man, who cannot be identified by police as he has not been charged, has been set free with a court date and orders not to possess weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man released from custody after arrest for firing gun in Victoria street
> 
> 
> A man arrested for firing an air-powered handgun outside a supportive housing facility in downtown Victoria has been released from custody with court-ordered conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


You do make me laugh - wait this isn't the Beaverton's work??

Court ordered conditions mean SFA to career criminals and the criminally mentally ill. They are not worth a hill of beans, but maybe the ivory tower lot believe in magic beans.


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> BC's NDP governments have always had eyes bigger than the stomachs of the taxpayers....
> 
> Lawrie McFarlane: When ministers focus on shiny baubles, basic services pay the price​
> One reason it takes longer to get an ambulance to your door than it takes to deliver a pizza is that vital services are strained past breaking point by inadequate funding, writes Lawrie McFarlane.  Jonathan Hayward, CP
> 
> 
> On Aug. 27, a 72 year-old Parksville resident, Chuck Blakey, lay dying on his kitchen floor while family members waited for an ambulance to arrive. When they called 911, they were answered by an operator who put them on hold, and played an automated message over and again.
> When finally an ambulance did show up, 30 minutes later and 15 minutes too late, Blakey was dead.
> 
> On Sept. 14, a Qualicum Beach man waited in agony for an ambulance to arrive. Ian Weir had been through prostate surgery and his bladder was blocked, allowing only a few drops of blood to emerge.
> 
> His wife called 911, and was told she was third in line. Exasperated, she ran to the ambulance station two blocks away where she was met with a chilly response.
> 
> An ambulance did at last arrive, 30 minutes later. “Seriously,” Weir said, “if I had a gun that night I would have shot myself.”
> 
> Nor were these isolated incidents. A 911 operator told the Times Colonist that the tragedy of a man dying while on hold to the ambulance service is a daily occurrence.
> 
> So what is going on? This is the kind of thing you’d expect in a third-world city during a Category 5 hurricane, with a metre of water in the streets and the power lines down.
> 
> Part of the answer is that we’ve stretched government to the breaking point, and beyond.
> 
> Between 1966 and 1996, there had been a huge expansion in the size and scope of the public sector. But the money wasn’t there to pay for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lawrie McFarlane: When ministers focus on shiny baubles, basic services pay the price
> 
> 
> On Aug. 27, a 72 year-old Parksville resident, Chuck Blakey, lay dying on his kitchen floor while family members waited for an ambulance to arrive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


"Live Below Your Means" has always been pretty sound advice when it comes to not being too financially stressed out, and able to ride out the inevitable waves that we all hit.  Every government could and should review their operations every few years to find & eliminate wasteful spending, reprioritize spending, and find efficiencies.  

And while I realize that every government will inevitably spend more than they bring in, it sounds like BC needs to smarten up right the f**k now.



A consistent factor in several of the posts above have been that people need to wait on hold once they call 911.  This is absolutely unacceptable, it's literally the ONLY number people can call if they are experiencing a legitimate emergency.  People need to be able to call & speak to an operator, provide the address, and tell the operator what's going on so a unit can already be in route during the remainder of the call.  They have to know that when they call 911 for help - extremely professional, well trained, well equipped first responders will be arriving soon to save the day.

-  Is the solution to being put on hold after calling 911 to simply hire a few more 911 operators?

-  Is being put on hold after calling 911 happening only when it comes to EMS?  Or are people calling for the police & fire department also put on hold?

-  Are local fire departments not responding to 911 medical calls also?  Especially for medical emergencies that are perhaps less urgent in nature, or to begin stabilization of the patient so EMS can transport faster, and be back online faster?



If the province insists on being the sole provider of EMS, and can't provide adequate funding because those funds are being sucked up by the black hole of various social services & mental health programs - something has to give.  And it shouldn't have to be the ones who _*actually*_ pay taxes in that province.

I'm not sure of the exact guaranteed response time here in Edmonton, but the guaranteed response time from Edmonton Fire is approximately 3 minutes.  This is for all fire department related calls, as well as a substantial number of EMS related calls.  They can arrive, ensure scene safety, assess the situation, start stabilizing a patient if need be, and update in real time the patient status so that when EMS arrives (if delayed for whatever reason) the EMS crew already has a solid grasp on their patient info, status, what has/hasn't been done, etc.


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Just another day of 'catch and release' in crazy town-on-sea:
> 
> 
> Man released from custody after arrest for firing gun in Victoria street​
> A man arrested for firing an air-powered handgun outside a supportive housing facility in downtown Victoria has been released from custody with court-ordered conditions.
> 
> While the weapon he was using has been seized, the man, who cannot be identified by police as he has not been charged, has been set free with a court date and orders not to possess weapons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man released from custody after arrest for firing gun in Victoria street
> 
> 
> A man arrested for firing an air-powered handgun outside a supportive housing facility in downtown Victoria has been released from custody with court-ordered conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


Honestly, f**k that.  

I wrote a post based on the tidbit here, then read the article, then deleted my original post....Should have just shot him.  Seriously.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

If only we had some form of revenue generating resource other than unicorn farts?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> He should have been released into the Judge’s custody and recognizance.



Or into the harbour 


CBH99 said:


> Honestly, f**k that.
> 
> I wrote a post based on the tidbit here, then read the article, then deleted my original post....Should have just shot him.  Seriously.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Another Officer down....


Victoria police officer injured while apprehending man on Gorge Road East​​ 
A Victoria police officer was hospitalized Wednesday morning after being assaulted while apprehending a man suffering a mental-health crisis.
Officers went to a motel in the 100-block of Gorge Road East about 10 a.m. after a man called police, threatened to kill people and said that there was a dead person on his balcony.

Police found the man outside the building and realized he was having a mental-health crisis. Officers tried to de-escalate the situation, but said when they tried to apprehend him under the Mental Health Act, he began to fight and punched one officer several time. Police said they used a conducted-energy weapon on the man, but he continued to struggle.

After more officers arrived, the man was taken into custody, then taken to hospital for a mental-health assessment.

The injured officer was treated for a concussion and was unable to complete his shift.









						Victoria police officer injured while apprehending man on Gorge Road East
					

A Victoria police officer was hospitalized Wednesday morning after being assaulted while apprehending a man suffering a mental-health crisis. Officers went to a motel in the 100-block of Gorge Road East about 10 a.m.




					www.timescolonist.com
				





And yet more arson.... 
Police investigate string of arson fires in James Bay​ 
Victoria police are looking for witnesses, surveillance footage and dashcam video after four arson fires Tuesday in residential parking areas in James Bay near Beacon Hill Park.

It began with a vehicle fire just before 3 a.m. in a parking area under some suites at a building on Academy Close. Two vehicles were damaged, along with the exterior walls of the suite above.









						Police investigate string of arson fires in James Bay
					

Victoria police are looking for witnesses, surveillance footage and dashcam video after four arson fires Tuesday in residential parking areas in James Bay near Beacon Hill Park. It began with a vehicle fire just before 3 a.m.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Haggis

daftandbarmy said:


> "While the weapon he was using has been seized, the man, who cannot be identified by police as *he has not been charged, has been set free with a court date and orders not to possess weapons."*


Something is missing here.  How can he be given a court date and not have been charged?


----------



## CBH99

Haggis said:


> Something is missing here.  How can he be given a court date and not have been charged?


A court date, and conditions…

Very much indeed something is missing.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

CBH99 said:


> A court date, and conditions…
> 
> Very much indeed something is missing.



In BC, the police don't charge you, they will give you conditions and a "promise to appear" date.  They will then spend two or three months putting together their file to recommend to Crown Counsel that charges be laid.  Crown Counsel is the one that charges you.  

There is some logic to this.  Quite often the charges are fairly minor so it gives the Crown Counsel time to look at the facts and decide whether it's actually worth it to go forward.  As well, if the accused breaks/violates their conditions or misses their dates, they can be found in contempt of the court, which is usually way worse than what they were probably going to be charged with in the first place and then they are looking at actual jail time.


----------



## brihard

It doesn't even depend on the crown charge approval thing. Charges are not laid until an information alleging the offences is sworn in front of a J.P. It's totally normal for police to arrest someone, determine from preliminary investigation that a charge is likely, and cut the person loose with a court date and release conditions, with the actual swearing of a charge to follow up later.  Pretty much anyone who is ever arrested and released from custody with an appearance document and who isn't held for a bail hearing falls into this category. 

Good example- it's 2:30 AM and I catch a drunk driver. Straightforward first offense impaired, no injuries, no reason to hold them for a bail hearing. I release them with a court date a month down the road. It'll take me a few working days to get my court file together, gather notes from other officers, my in car video, video from the cell block, etc. Once I have everything, THEN I submit my court pack and the charges are sworn.

So yeah, completely normal for charges to be laid later. If we arrest someone and hold them for a J.P., to argue to either a hold in custody, or for stricter conditions than we can impose, THEN we have to swear a charge before the court appearance. Extra fun when you get that file at 4 a.m. and your shift is supposed to be done at 5...


----------



## Booter

Haggis said:


> Something is missing here.  How can he be given a court date and not have been charged?


The information and swearing of it isn’t complete- until then the person can’t be identified as they aren’t “charged”. 

Like Brihard said it can be a time of day thing, or HB- a crown pre-charge thing, or sometimes even a complexity of the disclosure thing. 

Given a date and a series of conditions so they have the benefit of a quick release while awaiting the process.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Booter said:


> The information and swearing of it isn’t complete- until then the person can’t be identified as they aren’t “charged”.
> 
> Like Brihard said it can be a time of day thing, or HB- a crown pre-charge thing, or sometimes even a complexity of the disclosure thing.
> 
> Given a date and a series of conditions so they have the benefit of a quick release while awaiting the process.


This is all very informational. At what point (and by whom) can the accused be remanded into  custody to await the charge process? What is the trigger- the severity of the incident (I assume)?


----------



## Haggis

brihard said:


> It doesn't even depend on the crown charge approval thing. Charges are not laid until an information alleging the offences is sworn in front of a J.P. It's totally normal for police to arrest someone, determine from preliminary investigation that a charge is likely, and cut the person loose with a court date and release conditions, with the actual swearing of a charge to follow up later.  Pretty much anyone who is ever arrested and released from custody with an appearance document and who isn't held for a bail hearing falls into this category.
> 
> Good example- it's 2:30 AM and I catch a drunk driver. Straightforward first offense impaired, no injuries, no reason to hold them for a bail hearing. I release them with a court date a month down the road. It'll take me a few working days to get my court file together, gather notes from other officers, my in car video, video from the cell block, etc. Once I have everything, THEN I submit my court pack and the charges are sworn.
> 
> So yeah, completely normal for charges to be laid later. If we arrest someone and hold them for a J.P., to argue to either a hold in custody, or for stricter conditions than we can impose, THEN we have to swear a charge before the court appearance. Extra fun when you get that file at 4 a.m. and your shift is supposed to be done at 5...


That provides more context than the single sentence in the article. Clearly, I need more sleep as we use CCC 498(1) a lot and I should've figured this out.


----------



## Haggis

SeaKingTacco said:


> This is all very informational. At what point (and by whom) can the accused be remanded into  custody to await the charge process? What is the trigger- the severity of the incident (I assume)?


CCC 498(1.1) lays out the conditions under which an arrested person would be retained in custody.  This is colloquially known as RICE:


to prevent *R*epetition or continuation of the offence;
to establish the *I*dentity of the accused;
to ensure the accused will appear in *C*ourt; and
to preserve *E*vidence.

If all these conditions are met then the accused must be released.


----------



## brihard

SeaKingTacco said:


> This is all very informational. At what point (and by whom) can the accused be remanded into  custody to await the charge process? What is the trigger- the severity of the incident (I assume)?


So, generally that's our call as the initial arresting/investigating officers. Someone arrested and held in custody has to be brought before a Justice of the Peace generally within 24 hours (if one is available - not all places have weekend JPs), or ASAP as soon as one becomes available.

There are a number of different grounds on which we might argue to hold someone in custody. The primary ground is to ensure their attendance in court, and that carries the most weight. A history of failure to appear, escape custody, current outstanding warrants in other jurisdictions etc strengthens that. A plethora of other reasons exist too- protecting the victim or the public, the likelihood of repetition if released (e.g., chronic offenders), previous breaches of release conditions, confirming the identity of the accused, whether the release would be bring the administration of justice into disrepute (this one has less weight), anbd the seriousness of the matter and strength of the crown's case can come into play. There are also reverse onus cases where the presumption of release doesn't apply and the accused has to show why they ought to be- these generally apply to specific offences.

The S.498(1.1) quoted by OldSoldier has to do with if we arrest someone and do not intend to bring them before a justice. Basically it means that if we intend to cut them lose with a court date, we need to get on with it.

All that said- the opinions of police actually attending and working the files, and the opinions of JPs on the wisdom of releasing a given offender definitely does not always align. Sometimes the JP is right, sometimes we are. When we're right, it usually means the offender was released and went and did something else stupid that was reasonably predictable. The general trend in the criminal justice system is away form pre-trial custody wherever possible.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> I'm not sure of the exact guaranteed response time here in Edmonton, but the guaranteed response time from Edmonton Fire is approximately 3 minutes.


That's pretty fast.

Especially when Alarm Answering Time and Alarm Processing Time is considered.
That will vary if the Call Originator pulled a fire alarm box, or dialed 9-1-1.

Then add "Chute" Time.  That's from when the tones go off in the station, until the "rubber hits the road". That tends to vary between day and night.

Then Travel Time.

When the water actually comes out of the hose, or the shock is delivered to a patient can depend on location. eg: If it is up in a high-rise, or down in a ravine etc.


----------



## Haggis

brihard said:


> There are a number of different grounds on which we might argue to hold someone in custody. The primary ground is to ensure their attendance in court, and that carries the most weight. A history of failure to appear, escape custody, *current outstanding warrants in other jurisdictions* etc strengthens that.


Some of that also depends on if the jurisdiction holding the outstanding warrant wants it executed by the arresting service and under what statute (i.e. criminal or provincial offences) the warrant was issued.  Some warrants have a radius (e.g. 500 km, province or Canada-wide) outside of which the issuing service will not go through the cost and effort of extradition to their jurisdiction.  An example would be an accused who has a warrant for theft under $5000 in Oromocto, with a radius of NB, but who is arrested in Vancouver.  Next time he gets picked up in NB, the warrant is executed.


brihard said:


> The S.498(1.1) quoted by *OldSoldier* ....


That was me, actually.


----------



## brihard

Haggis said:


> Some of that also depends on if the jurisdiction holding the outstanding warrant wants it executed by the arresting service and under what statute (i.e. criminal or provincial offences) the warrant was issued.  Some warrants have a radius (e.g. 500 km, province or Canada-wide) outside of which the issuing service will not go through the cost and effort of extradition to their jurisdiction.  An example would be an accused who has a warrant for theft under $5000 in Oromocto, with a radius of NB, but who is arrested in Vancouver.  Next time he gets picked up in NB, the warrant is executed.
> 
> That was me, actually.


Brain fart, sorry.

And yeah- most warrants are limited to a province, or even narrower radius. They function more as a 'stay the hell out of our jurisdiction' than as a serious endeavour to return the person to face justice. But we'll absolutely use their existence to show that the individual has a history of evading justice, and it will inform the JP's decision via its inclusion in a bail brief.


----------



## Haggis

brihard said:


> Brain fart, sorry.
> 
> And yeah- most warrants are limited to a province, or even narrower radius. They function more as a 'stay the hell out of our jurisdiction' than as a serious endeavour to return the person to face justice.


No worries.

I've heard non-returnable warrants described as being the modern equivalent of being "run out of town" by the sheriff. 🤠


----------



## Brad Sallows

From BC's perspective, they are a "keep moving westward" motivator.


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> Brain fart, sorry.
> 
> And yeah- most warrants are limited to a province, or even narrower radius. They function more as a 'stay the hell out of our jurisdiction' than as a serious endeavour to return the person to face justice. But we'll absolutely use their existence to show that the individual has a history of evading justice, and it will inform the JP's decision via its inclusion in a bail brief.



Apparently this is exactly what's driving alot of the 'Pond Life' activity around here, which is tragic for the genuinely disadvantaged honest people of course.


----------



## OldSolduer

We have a gentleman in custody here that shouldn't be here. Can we ship him to Victoria? He'd fit right in.

All joking aside, there must be a greater effort to focus on mental health from all levels of government. Mental health guys don't do well in jail, and very few staff have any training in mental health.


----------



## CBH99

OldSolduer said:


> We have a gentleman in custody here that shouldn't be here. Can we ship him to Victoria? He'd fit right in.
> 
> All joking aside, there must be a greater effort to focus on mental health from all levels of government. Mental health guys don't do well in jail, and very few staff have any training in mental health.


We had quite a few folks in custody here who didn’t belong in custody either, but there was simply nowhere else for them to go - and some crown prosecutor convinced some judge that sitting in a 15x15 room was somehow in both society’s best interest at and theirs.  Not so.  

She actually would have been better off in Victoria I’d think.  At least she’d have some level of freedom to access services that we can’t provide, nor do we even offer them.


----------



## CBH99

Haggis said:


> That provides more context than the single sentence in the article. Clearly, I need more sleep as we use CCC 498(1) a lot and I should've figured this out.


I read that sentence the same way you did. 

To all who clarified - thank you.  I think Haggis and I were on the same brainwave last night.  

(Anybody else work a night shift, stay awake all day the day prior and after, then wake up curious to read what they posted on Army.ca?  If not, and you’re looking for a middle aged sense of adventure, I highly recommend it!)


----------



## Haggis

CBH99 said:


> I read that sentence the same way you did.
> 
> To all who clarified - thank you.  I think Haggis and I were on the same brainwave last night.
> 
> (Anybody else work a night shift, stay awake all day the day prior and after, then wake up curious to read what they posted on Army.ca?  If not, and you’re looking for a middle aged sense of adventure, I highly recommend it!)


Two double shifts and an additional eight hours of OT in five days.  I was lucky I could read at all.


----------



## CBH99

Haggis said:


> Two double shifts and an additional eight hours of OT in five days.  I was lucky I could read at all.


Lately I've been covering a night shift for someone, in addition to regular shifts, and I've been in total zombie mode too 🧟‍♂️ 

I'm not kidding, army.ca has been an adventure the last few weeks once our set ends.  I come back here and read the responses to my posts I have ZERO recollection of posting 🤨

Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised by what I've written.  Other times, as I'm sure some have realized, barely qualify as words


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> Lately I've been covering a night shift for someone, in addition to regular shifts, and I've been in total zombie mode too 🧟‍♂️
> 
> I'm not kidding, army.ca has been an adventure the last few weeks once our set ends.  I come back here and read the responses to my posts I have ZERO recollection of posting 🤨
> 
> Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised by what I've written.  Other times, as I'm sure some have realized, barely qualify as words



It's OK, that balances out all the 'drunken posters' right?


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> It's OK, that balances out all the 'drunken posters' right?


 It's actually become something I look forward to reading in the mornings, If I'm going to be perfectly honest 😉🤫


"X replied to your post..."

Me: What DID I post?  When?  I wrote this?  Why is exhausted me more articulate than awake me?


----------



## RedFive

I, too frequent the site after night shifts...


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Lately I've been covering a night shift for someone, in addition to regular shifts, and I've been in total zombie mode too 🧟‍♂️


Bells / tones waking you up at ungodly hours was awful. Ever try to drive 60 seconds after getting out of bed?


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> Bells / tones waking you up at ungodly hours was awful. Ever try to drive 60 seconds after getting out of bed?


Oh man…. I don’t know how you guys managed to avoid some major mess-ups when waking up, gearing up, and driving within 60 seconds.  

Did you guys ever have a “Wait, where’s Bob?” moment?  (Be honest… 😉)


Worst part - for me anyway - was heading the tones go off when I WASN’T at work. 

One night a rolled out of bed like I was on QL2 all over again, grabbed my jeans, socks, shirt, shoes, and car keys and flew out of the house at light speed!  

Ran out to my car, got in, and started to pull out of the driveway until I had to decide which way to turn the wheel to face the direction I needed to go… only then did my brain stop & recognize I wasn’t at work, on a call, tones hadn’t gone off, and I was quasi-dreaming.  🥵😕

The gradual tone being used now is much nicer on the brain & heart 🙏🏻


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> One night a rolled out of bed like I was on QL2 all over again, grabbed my jeans, socks, shirt, shoes, and car keys and flew out of the house at light speed!
> 
> Ran out to my car, got in,


They called you at home? They never called, or paged us at home.

We worked 40-hours a week at the station. Like any other job.

After that, your time was your own.

Who calls people at home? I've heard of volunteer firemen using their own cars , but never heard of paramedics doing it. Just the thought of it is disturbing. - smile emoji.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

mariomike said:


> Bells / tones waking you up at ungodly hours was awful. Ever try to drive 60 seconds after getting out of bed?


Try airborne in a helicopter within 10 mins…


----------



## mariomike

SeaKingTacco said:


> Try airborne in a helicopter within 10 mins…


I don't like being rushed out of bed by anybody...

I bid for no nights / no weekends ASAP. You lose the shift bonus. But, as far as I was concerned, it was worth it.



> The gradual tone being used now is much nicer on the brain & heart


Much nicer than the bells.
Makes you want to roll over for another 40 winks.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> One night a rolled out of bed like I was on QL2 all over again, grabbed my jeans, socks, shirt, shoes, and car keys and flew out of the house at light speed!



Bed?


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> They called you at home? They never called, or paged us at home.
> 
> We worked 40-hours a week at the station. Like any other job.
> 
> After that, your time was your own.
> 
> Who calls people at home? I've heard of volunteer firemen using their own cars , but never heard of paramedics doing it. Just the thought of it is disturbing. - smile emoji.



In a deployed police service, I got called out all the time.  In smaller, non-24-hour detachments it wasn't 'jumping at the siren' type of thing, just 'get up and get in - there's a call'.  Later in plain clothes it was 'you have an assignment', and most of the time it was get up and grab a suitcase.

It's not uncommon in some volunteer fire services for members to attend in their own vehicles.  Usually it's arranged that those closer to the hall will roll with the truck(s) and those farther out will head to the scene, rather than hold up the truck.

There are some remote areas of Ontario than are 'x' km from a paramedic base that still have First Responders, I think with fairly basic first aid.  Many are members of the VFS, but there are still some organized townships that don't have fire services.


----------



## mariomike

My life was pretty simple in comparison. No shift premium. But, it was worth it. In my opinion.

0700-1900 Mon, Tues, Weds, Thurs, Fri.
0700-1900 Weds, Thurs, Fri.
0700-1900 Mon, Tues.

Same station. Same partner. Nothing ever changed.


----------



## RedFive

mariomike said:


> Bells / tones waking you up at ungodly hours was awful. Ever try to drive 60 seconds after getting out of bed?


Ever try driving lights and sirens in a busy metropolitan centre during the morning rush when you've been awake your whole twelve hour shift, 1900-0700? At least you're awake when you get there to deal with whatever calamity has befallen the complainant...

It gets even better when it's your second 1900-0700 in a row and you didn't sleep more than an hour or two in between them because loud neighbours, daylight and a messed up body clock.

Not trying to suck measure, but being able to sleep between calls is something I very much wish I was allowed to do.


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> They called you at home? They never called, or paged us at home.
> 
> We worked 40-hours a week at the station. Like any other job.
> 
> After that, your time was your own.
> 
> Who calls people at home? I've heard of volunteer firemen using their own cars , but never heard of paramedics doing it. Just the thought of it is disturbing. - smile emoji.


I’m so sorry.  After re-reading my post, I completely forgot the ‘punch line’ of the story.  

There were no tones, at all.  No bells or sirens.  No calls.  Nadda.  The ‘sudden & loud tones’ had jumped me out of bed when I was at work so many times, that I would actually hear them in my sleep sometimes.  

So this time I flew out of bed, got dressed faster than a BMQ student on Day 2, and was out the door in a huge hurry to get to nowhere. And only realized I wasn’t at work, I wasn’t on a call, and I wasn’t in an ambulance once my brain finally caught up to my body because I literally didn’t know where to drive to 😅🤦🏼‍♂️




mariomike said:


> Much nicer than the bells.


Agreed very much so.  

The gradual tones didn’t have me dreaming about them.  The sudden ones I’m pretty sure jolted a few years off  🤯   I know I wasn’t the only one



lenaitch said:


> It's not uncommon in some volunteer fire services for members to attend in their own vehicles.  Usually it's arranged that those closer to the hall will roll with the truck(s) and those farther out will head to the scene, rather than hold up the truck.


When I was younger I was a volunteer firefighter in my smaller home town.  (About 3000 people, prairie town in southern Alberta.)

We had green LED strobe lights in our vehicles for when we would head to a call in our own ride.  Gear was always organized and packed in the back 




SeaKingTacco said:


> Try airborne in a helicopter within 10 mins…


Possible to let autopilot take over once off the ground?  😅😬🤷🏼‍♂️


----------



## mariomike

RedFive said:


> Ever try driving lights and sirens in a busy metropolitan centre during the morning rush when you've been awake your whole twelve hour shift, 1900-0700?
> 
> Not trying to suck measure, but being able to sleep between calls is something I very much wish I was allowed to do.


At least it was only 12 hours. Our city firefighters do 24-hour tours.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> At least it was only 12 hours. Our city firefighters do 24-hour tours.


Not all of that is awake.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> Not all of that is awake.


Toronto Fire banned the use of CPAP machines in fire house bedrooms for fears their use could spread respiratory droplets potentially containing coronavirus.








						The world news platform
					

All world news in one place




					theworldnews.net
				






> An email from Toronto Fire says those impacted by the ban have two options over the customary 24-hour, 28-day shift rotations split across four platoons.
> In the first scenario, staff would report to their regular assignment at 7 a.m. and work until 7 p.m., while on the second day they would work the same hours but be assigned by the platoon chief to whatever may be needed to fill staffing holes.
> The second option would involve reporting to their regular assignment at 7 a.m. and informing their platoon chief that accommodation is required. They would then work until 11 p.m., with the eight hour difference made up for after the crisis ends by either giving up times earned or working additional hours.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> Who calls people at home? I've heard of volunteer firemen using their own cars , but never heard of paramedics doing it. Just the thought of it is disturbing. - smile emoji.


Totally normal for probably a couple thousand rural/remote police. RCMP have lots of members working in small detachments (som as small as two or three members) that don’t have police on shift 24/7. So they’ll work their 40 scheduled hours a week, and then among the members of the detachment, there will be paid on call to ensure that al all times there can be two police officers on or recalled to duty if needed. They bring their gear and their car home, and if the phone rings they wake up, pull on as much of it as they need, and go.

Predictably, dispatchers have some funny stories about things said by officers who are awakened totally sleepf***ed and dispatched to a call.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> So they’ll work their 40 scheduled hours a week, and then among the members of the detachment, there will be paid on call to ensure that al all times there can be two police officers on or recalled to duty if needed.


We called it Standby. It was not a normal requirement of the job.  It was voluntary. I never did it. I'm not sure if anyone did.

But, it was in the collective agreement. So, I guess they could have forced the issue, if they had wanted - by reverse seniority.

Standby paid a minimum of three (3) hours at regular straight time.
If ordered in while on Standby, all hours were paid at time a half. Four hours minimum.

I did, occasionally, accept voluntary Overtime, when offered. If it was a day shift. 0700 - 1900.
OT paid a guaranteed 12 hours - at time and a half. That made it worth while.
And, you had plenty of notice.

If you did not want to be offered OT, they would put you on a Do Not Disturb list.



> Predictably, dispatchers have some funny stories about things said by officers who are awakened totally sleepf***ed and dispatched to a call.



Reading that, I've got to say, when we were off duty - they left you alone.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

lenaitch said:


> Not all of that is awake.


It is not like firefighters drive around, looking for fires…


----------



## Weinie

SeaKingTacco said:


> It is not like firefighters drive around, looking for fires…


Or setting them.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> Or setting them.


----------



## lenaitch

Weinie said:


> Or setting them.


Well, we did have one guy in the volunteer department at one of my postings . . .


----------



## AmmoTech90

mariomike said:


> They called you at home? They never called, or paged us at home.
> 
> We worked 40-hours a week at the station. Like any other job.
> 
> After that, your time was your own.


Oooh, I can contribute to an ambulance thread!  First time given I don't know much about them.  My wife's best friend lives just outside a small town in (very) rural Saskatchewan.  Day to day as a beef farmer.  Qualified as an EMR, and her and a friend are the local ambulance service.  Get a call, go get the ambulance and do their thing.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> We called it Standby. It was not a normal requirement of the job.  It was voluntary. I never did it. I'm not sure if anyone did.
> 
> But, it was in the collective agreement. So, I guess they could have forced the issue, if they had wanted - by reverse seniority.
> 
> Standby paid a minimum of three (3) hours at regular straight time.
> If ordered in while on Standby, all hours were paid at time a half. Four hours minimum.
> 
> I did, occasionally, accept voluntary Overtime, when offered. If it was a day shift. 0700 - 1900.
> OT paid a guaranteed 12 hours - at time and a half. That made it worth while.
> And, you had plenty of notice.
> 
> If you did not want to be offered OT, they would put you on a Do Not Disturb list.
> 
> 
> 
> Reading that, I've got to say, when we were off duty - they left you alone.


It’s voluntary, but basically everyone in those detachments accepts it. It’s the only way to have coverage. The on call is paid at either one hour for every four or one hour for every eight depending on how quickly available you are. A callback to duty is a minimum three hour callout if you have to physically go, or minimum one hour if it can be handled ‘work from home’ via a phone call.

In some places they barely get called out, in others it’s constant, to the point of being potentially unsafe.


----------



## mariomike

AmmoTech90 said:


> Qualified as an EMR,


Congratulations to your friend.  I've never met an EMR. What are their qualifications?

In case I am ever in Sask.


----------



## lenaitch

brihard said:


> It’s voluntary, but basically everyone in those detachments accepts it. It’s the only way to have coverage. The on call is paid at either one hour for every four or one hour for every eight depending on how quickly available you are. A callback to duty is a minimum three hour callout if you have to physically go, or minimum one hour if it can be handled ‘work from home’ via a phone call.
> 
> In some places they barely get called out, in others it’s constant, to the point of being potentially unsafe.


Back in my Field days at non-24 hour detachments it was completely informal.  Off-going shift would take turns until about 0400 then day shift would be called.  No stand-by pay.  If you changed your mind and decided to have a few beer when you got home and couldn't take a call, no harm no foul (don't make a habit of it, though) - they'd call somebody else.  Just part of life in a small office.  Callback was 4 hours (I think it might be six now). Now, it seems, many of the current generation want no part of it.  I have heard some bright-bulb commanders started adding callout assignments on the duty roster but still feeling it is voluntary.   Hmmm.


----------



## AmmoTech90

mariomike said:


> Congratulations to your friend.  I've never met one. What are their qualifications?
> 
> In case I am ever in Sask.


One week course.  Airway management, O2 therapy.  SFA+O2+HCP CPR+ some other stuff


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> Well, we did have one guy in the volunteer department at one of my postings . . .


I think the experts call it "Hero Syndrome".


----------



## Scott

CBH99 said:


> Oh man…. I don’t know how you guys managed to avoid some major mess-ups when waking up, gearing up, and driving within 60 seconds.
> 
> Did you guys ever have a “Wait, where’s Bob?” moment?  (Be honest… 😉)



I know a Bob story and the dude's name is Bob.

The boys had a long day out of a larger downtown fire station. A call came in about midnight and things went as per until the driver asked where the Captain was. Senior guy went back to Bob's office to semi gently wake him and off they went.


----------



## Scott

mariomike said:


> I think the experts call it "Hero Syndrome".


More like "arson", and while the wanting to appear a hero may get some of them going, it's not a catch all.


----------



## CBH99

AmmoTech90 said:


> One week course.  Airway management, O2 therapy.  SFA+O2+HCP CPR+ some other stuff


Wow!  Is it still only a week long, or has that changed within the last year or two?

There used to be a 2 week condensed course offered here in Alberta for EMR.  I finished the course, took the provincial licensing exam (only costs around $700-ish) - then went on and got qualified as an EMT.  

When I recently looked into getting qualified as an EMR again (I’m woefully out of practice…I did the course in 2005…) I was surprised at how much longer it is now!  (Here in AB anyway.)

Most were several months long, but I also couldn’t find one that wasn’t only 3 days a week or so.


----------



## mariomike

Scott said:


> More like "arson", and while the wanting to appear a hero may get some of them going, it's not a catch all.





> It is not like firefighters drive around, looking for fires…





> Or setting them.





> Well, we did have one guy in the volunteer department at one of my postings . . .



For reference to the discussion, *U.S. Department of Homeland Security Special Report: "Firefighter Arson"*.


			https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/tr-141.pdf


----------



## Scott

Thanks for proving the point that I made.

The hero syndrome you mentioned is just one of the subsets of firefighter arsonists.


----------



## mariomike

Scott said:


> The hero syndrome you mentioned is just one of the subsets of firefighter arsonists.


I'm not arguing with you, Scott. Of course you are right.

According to the USDHS,


> There are some motives that are particular to firefighters. For example, the primary motives for firefighter arson seem to be the need to be seen as a hero, to practice extinguishing fires, or to earn extra money.





			https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/tr-141.pdf


----------



## Scott

And a half gallon of gas is still cheaper than a movie ticket. 

I am sure there's a boredom motivated arsonist working in my area. I think it could be a firefighter, but that's based solely on how I feel having had conversations with other FFs about it.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> A callback to duty is a minimum three hour callout if you have to physically go, or minimum one hour if it can be handled ‘work from home’ via a phone call.


They used to call us at home with questions from the police, hospital or coroner. Or, the Dept., if there was a serious complaint or concern.

But, they tried to hold on to their questions until you returned to duty.

Because even a phone call to your house to ask a question(s) cost the taxpayers four (4) hours pay at regular over time rate. ie: six regular hours.

I knew a guy assigned to a 9-5 office job at HQ. He did liason work. Paid Duty etc. The customers were paging him at home at all hours, and he billed them mercilessly. Just for returning phone calls.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Scott said:


> Thanks for proving the point that I made.
> 
> The hero syndrome you mentioned is just one of the subsets of firefighter arsonists.


or better yet , your mother wants you to be a hero and sets fires for you to put out.....

Fire fighting used to be one of primary employment of remote First Nations, quite a few suspicious fires during slow seasons. I have not heard of it being as much of an issue as other resource jobs opened up.


----------



## mariomike

Colin Parkinson said:


> Fire fighting used to be one of primary employment of remote First Nations, quite a few suspicious fires during slow seasons. I have not heard of it being as much of an issue as other resource jobs opened up.



The USDHS seems to confirm that,


> There are some motives that are particular to firefighters. For example, the primary motives for firefighter arson seem to be the need to be seen as a hero, to practice extinguishing fires, or to earn extra money.



As Scott pointed out, 



> The hero syndrome you mentioned is just one of the subsets of firefighter arsonists.


----------



## daftandbarmy

From last August... and it's getting worse:

Victoria now among most dangerous cities in Canada​Once-placid Victoria sees fourth-highest spike in crime severity index, bucking a trend that saw reported crimes plunge nearly 10 per cent from a year earlier across Canada


Victoria, characterized for decades as a placid and safe city, posted the fourth-highest increase in severe crime across Canada in 2020, bucking a national trend that saw crimes reported to police drop 9.8 per cent from a year earlier.

Statistics Canada released data July 27 showing a crime severity index in the city of Victoria of 168 — significantly higher than the 76 seen in the region as a whole. Victoria’s crime severity index also tops that of Vancouver (105) and the B.C. average (96).

Victoria ranked the fourth-highest in the crime severity index (CSI) among cities profiled, with a 3 per cent year-over-year increase in 2020. The CSI had fallen in 27 of 35 urban centres profiled, according to Statistics Canada data.










						Victoria now among most dangerous cities in Canada
					

Once-placid Victoria sees fourth-highest spike in crime severity index, bucking a trend that saw reported crimes plunge nearly 10 per cent from a year earlier across Canada




					www.westerninvestor.com


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

This is surprising to me, given that Victoria has for some time had the most police per 100,000 population of any city in Canada (cf. Rate of police officers in Canada, by municipality 2019 | Statista).


----------



## daftandbarmy

LittleBlackDevil said:


> This is surprising to me, given that Victoria has for some time had the most police per 100,000 population of any city in Canada (cf. Rate of police officers in Canada, by municipality 2019 | Statista).



About 30% are unavailable due to job related stress issues, apparently.


----------



## LittleBlackDevil

daftandbarmy said:


> About 30% are unavailable due to job related stress issues, apparently.



I wouldn't be surprised to see this continue and spread to other departments. Police have, in my view, been very poorly treated over the past couple years if not more. During COVID they have been forced to do a lot of the "dirty work" that I'm sure they did not sign up for, to punish people for being out of their homes/not wearing masks/etc. and likely are on the receiving end of a lot of the frustration people have after 18 months of abnormal life.

At the same time you have things like BLM, Defund Police, and the like which reached a boiling point last summer, that villainize the police and adds to their stress.


----------



## daftandbarmy

LittleBlackDevil said:


> I wouldn't be surprised to see this continue and spread to other departments. Police have, in my view, been very poorly treated over the past couple years if not more. During COVID they have been forced to do a lot of the "dirty work" that I'm sure they did not sign up for, to punish people for being out of their homes/not wearing masks/etc. and likely are on the receiving end of a lot of the frustration people have after 18 months of abnormal life.
> 
> At the same time you have things like BLM, Defund Police, and the like which reached a boiling point last summer, that villainize the police and adds to their stress.



And then you've got the Premier taking on one of the Victoria City Council members for being anti-Police....

"My thoughts on that individual are not printable. I will say that I spoke with Mayor Helps today and assured her I do not view the city council in Victoria as a mirror image of Mr. Isitt. He will carry on living his life the way he does, and we'll have to recon with that as time goes by."









						BC Premier addresses anti-police tweet by Victoria councillor Isitt
					

Premier John Horgan tells reporters ""My thoughts on that individual are not printable" and he has assured the mayor he does not view Victoria council as a mirror image of Mr. Isitt




					www.iheartradio.ca


----------



## TCM621

daftandbarmy said:


> And then you've got the Premier taking on one of the Victoria City Council members for being anti-Police....
> 
> "My thoughts on that individual are not printable. I will say that I spoke with Mayor Helps today and assured her I do not view the city council in Victoria as a mirror image of Mr. Isitt. He will carry on living his life the way he does, and we'll have to recon with that as time goes by."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BC Premier addresses anti-police tweet by Victoria councillor Isitt
> 
> 
> Premier John Horgan tells reporters ""My thoughts on that individual are not printable" and he has assured the mayor he does not view Victoria council as a mirror image of Mr. Isitt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.iheartradio.ca


Ben Isitt is an asshat and at the center of almost every bulllshit idea coming out of Victoria council for more than a decade. Helps is almost as bad.


----------



## Weinie

TCM621 said:


> Ben Isitt is an asshat and at the center of almost every bulllshit idea coming out of Victoria council for more than a decade. Helps is almost as bad.


Then how come he keeps getting elected...........oh wait..........Left Coast. 🙃


----------



## quadrapiper

LittleBlackDevil said:


> This is surprising to me, given that Victoria has for some time had the most police per 100,000 population of any city in Canada (cf. Rate of police officers in Canada, by municipality 2019 | Statista).


It's got all the Exciting Downtown Problems of a much larger municipality: homeless aside, VPD's jurisdiction is the party/protest/Big Civic Event venue for Saanich/UVic, View Royal, Oak Bay, Langford, and Colwood, plus being a magnet for traffic from further afield.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Weinie said:


> Then how come he keeps getting elected...........oh wait..........Champagne Socialists on the Left Coast. 🙃



There, FTFY


----------



## daftandbarmy

#soawesome 

Man arrested after asking police for help breaking into ATM 

A man breaking into an automated teller machine in downtown Victoria was so focused on his work that he asked two passersby to give him a hand.

Too bad for him they were fully uniformed cops.

VicPD officers were doing patrols in the 900 Block of Yates Street early Tuesday when they saw a man attempting to break into the ATM. They approached, noted the machine had already been damaged and watched the suspect for more than two minutes.

“At that point the man noted that someone was behind him. Without turning he asked [the officers] to help him break into the ATM,” VicPD said. “The officers then identified themselves as police and informed the man he was under arrest.”

The man attempted to flee, but was taken to the ground. After a brief struggle, the man was handcuffed and taken to police cells. No one was injured in the incident.

The man was later released as police continue their investigation.










						Man arrested after asking police for help breaking into ATM
					

A man breaking into an automated teller machine in downtown Victoria was so focused on his work that he asked two passersby to give him a hand. Too bad for him they were fully uniformed police.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> From last August... and it's getting worse:
> 
> Victoria now among most dangerous cities in Canada​Once-placid Victoria sees fourth-highest spike in crime severity index, bucking a trend that saw reported crimes plunge nearly 10 per cent from a year earlier across Canada
> 
> 
> Victoria, characterized for decades as a placid and safe city, posted the fourth-highest increase in severe crime across Canada in 2020, bucking a national trend that saw crimes reported to police drop 9.8 per cent from a year earlier.
> 
> Statistics Canada released data July 27 showing a crime severity index in the city of Victoria of 168 — significantly higher than the 76 seen in the region as a whole. Victoria’s crime severity index also tops that of Vancouver (105) and the B.C. average (96).
> 
> Victoria ranked the fourth-highest in the crime severity index (CSI) among cities profiled, with a 3 per cent year-over-year increase in 2020. The CSI had fallen in 27 of 35 urban centres profiled, according to Statistics Canada data.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Victoria now among most dangerous cities in Canada
> 
> 
> Once-placid Victoria sees fourth-highest spike in crime severity index, bucking a trend that saw reported crimes plunge nearly 10 per cent from a year earlier across Canada
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.westerninvestor.com


Is it the weather, or the apparent abundance of social programs, that attract homeless people from across Canada to head to Victoria?  Or something else entirely?

If crime is getting worse, and the safety of the city is apparently getting worse, despite having decently high police per capita — what are the roots of the weeds that Victoria and/or BC aren’t tackling?


EDIT:  This was supposed to post almost a week ago.  Not sure why it just posted now 😐


----------



## daftandbarmy

CBH99 said:


> Is it the weather, or the apparent abundance of social programs, that attract homeless people from across Canada to head to Victoria?  Or something else entirely?
> 
> If crime is getting worse, and the safety of the city is apparently getting worse, despite having decently high police per capita — what are the roots of the weeds that Victoria and/or BC aren’t tackling?
> 
> 
> EDIT:  This was supposed to post almost a week ago.  Not sure why it just posted now 😐



I dunno... but the chaos is fun to watch from a distance sometimes:

Impaired driver slams into ice cream shop in downtown Victoria, B.C.​The crash wasn't the end of the chase—a taser was needed to apprehend them

Victoria police were called to the scene of a crash in the city’s downtown core this week, but it didn’t involve another vehicle or a pedestrian. The motorist had driven right into the Marble Slab ice cream shop located ground level at The Bay Centre, the city’s downtown shopping complex.

There were surveillance cameras pointed right towards where the action unfolded and footage revealed a silver Kia Soul hitting a metal garbage can, which goes flying into the Marble Slab window, followed by the car driving directly into the shop’s windows.

The vehicle then hits reverse and backs up out of frame. Moments later, it’s spotted in frame again, this time driving directly into the building’s facade to the right of the ice cream parlour.

The footage is pretty shocking and would’ve definitely been alarming for witnesses to have watched such erratic driving behaviour unfold.











						Impaired driver slams into ice cream shop in downtown Victoria, B.C.
					

The crash wasn't the end of the chase—a taser was needed to apprehend them




					driving.ca


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:


> I dunno... but the chaos is fun to watch from a distance sometimes:
> 
> Impaired driver slams into ice cream shop in downtown Victoria, B.C.​The crash wasn't the end of the chase—a taser was needed to apprehend them
> 
> Victoria police were called to the scene of a crash in the city’s downtown core this week, but it didn’t involve another vehicle or a pedestrian. The motorist had driven right into the Marble Slab ice cream shop located ground level at The Bay Centre, the city’s downtown shopping complex.
> 
> There were surveillance cameras pointed right towards where the action unfolded and footage revealed a silver Kia Soul hitting a metal garbage can, which goes flying into the Marble Slab window, followed by the car driving directly into the shop’s windows.
> 
> The vehicle then hits reverse and backs up out of frame. Moments later, it’s spotted in frame again, this time driving directly into the building’s facade to the right of the ice cream parlour.
> 
> The footage is pretty shocking and would’ve definitely been alarming for witnesses to have watched such erratic driving behaviour unfold.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Impaired driver slams into ice cream shop in downtown Victoria, B.C.
> 
> 
> The crash wasn't the end of the chase—a taser was needed to apprehend them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> driving.ca


Go Taser!!


----------



## CBH99

anybody else in the LEO community starting to seriously think about putting in an application??  

It doesn’t seem like we’d be complaining about really boring shifts anymore.


----------



## daftandbarmy

If you note the addresses, you can guess that the 800-900 Block of Johnson Street is 'ground zero':



*Weapons, fentanyl found in search of Johnson Street suite*

Victoria police and the Greater Victoria Emergency Response Team have seized fentanyl, weapons and cash after a drug-trafficking investigation.

Victoria police and the Greater Victoria Emergency Response Team have seized fentanyl, weapons and cash after a drug-trafficking investigation.

The investigation began in early October with a focus on a suspect in a suite in a multi-unit residential building in the 900 block of Johnson Street.

The suspect was arrested Oct. 15 and found to have a can of bear spray.

Weapons, fentanyl found in search of Johnson Street suite


Three sent to hospital after weekend assaults​Three people were hospitalized with stab wounds and three arrests were made after a string of assaults on the weekend.

The incidents began about 8:45 p.m. Saturday with a report to Victoria police that a man was chasing two people with a large metal pipe in the 800-block of Johnson Street. A man matching the description provided was found and a metal pipe with a sharpened end was located nearby.

Officers discovered that the man had an outstanding warrant for breaching a court-ordered condition, and he was arrested and taken to police cells.

The two people being chased were not found.

At about 9:2o p.m., officers were called to the 900-block of Pandora Avenue where it was reported that two men had stabbed another man. The victim was found in a tent with potentially life-threatening injuries.

Three sent to hospital after weekend assaults


----------



## RedFive

CBH99 said:


> anybody else in the LEO community starting to seriously think about putting in an application??
> 
> It doesn’t seem like we’d be complaining about really boring shifts anymore.


Thanks, but I already work in a badly understaffed, criminally mismanaged, drug addict and mental health ridden jurisdiction.


----------



## brihard

Victoria Police are now offering a $20k signing bonus for experienced hires. They’re looking to hire 12 laterals. I guess they don’t get to count on hemmorhage from the RCMP anymore. I suspect they’ve cast a nervous eye south at what’s happened in Portland.









						Victoria police offer $20,000 hiring bonus, seek 12 new experienced officers
					

Department says it is in urgent need of more frontline officers




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## ModlrMike

RedFive said:


> Thanks, but I already work in a badly understaffed, criminally mismanaged, drug addict and mental health ridden jurisdiction.


There's lots of us non-police folks to whom that applies too.


----------



## QV

RedFive said:


> Thanks, but I already work in a badly understaffed, criminally mismanaged, drug addict and mental health ridden jurisdiction.


Victoria used to be a very desirable place to live. F that now.


----------



## mariomike

> I already work in a badly understaffed, criminally mismanaged, drug addict and mental health ridden jurisdiction.



I bet everyone in emergency services assinged to a station that gets sent to a lot of skell calls feels that way.

That's where most probies started. But, as they worked their way up the seniority lisr, they transferred to quieter stations.

Although some seemed to thrive in that element, "As long as they walk."  

Eight minutes later, they would be someone else's problem.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Victoria used to be a very desirable place to live. F that now.



Parts of Victoria, maybe.  But the greater Victoria area, and all of the Saanich peninsula plus the communities west of Victoria, are decent.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> Parts of Victoria, maybe.  But the greater Victoria area, and all of the Saanich peninsula plus the communities west of Victoria, are decent.



Absolutely agree. The chaos is restricted mainly to a few blocks in the core of downtown.

Meanwhile, Victoria Police are hiring. Looks like the danger pay is being handed out 'up front'  

Victoria police offer $20,000 hiring bonus, seek 12 new experienced officers​
The department wants to hire 12 experienced police officers to work in patrol and respond to 911 calls. Currently, about 35 of its 249 officers are unable to work on the front lines, Victoria Police Chief Del Manak said Tuesday.

“We need officers now,” said Manak. “We are serious about getting experienced officers hired at the earliest possible opportunity. It will be faster than having recruits going to the police academy, which takes eight or nine months before they’re actually deployed.”

The chief knows he doesn’t have to sell people on the advantages of living in Victoria or elsewhere on southern Vancouver Island, even though it’s one of the most expensive places to live in Canada. Manak hopes the $20,000 bonus will give anyone who has thought of moving here or wants a career change the incentive to apply now.

“We thought $20,000 would get people’s attention. If they are considering relocating, that amount would be sufficient. We felt anything short of that might not be competitive,” said the chief.










						Victoria police offer $20,000 hiring bonus, seek 12 new experienced officers
					

Department says it is in urgent need of more frontline officers




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## medicineman

20K gets you a downpayment on a small shack IIRC right?


----------



## daftandbarmy

medicineman said:


> 20K gets you a downpayment on a small shack IIRC right?



In Sooke, yes


----------



## Good2Golf

daftandbarmy said:


> In Sooke, yes


Jordan River…


----------



## medicineman

Good2Golf said:


> Jordan River…


Port San Juan...maybe.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

medicineman said:


> Port San Juan...maybe.


Youbou…


----------



## daftandbarmy

SeaKingTacco said:


> Youbou…



It's never been the same since they got rid of the sawmill


----------



## Colin Parkinson

SeaKingTacco said:


> Youbou…


The place where men stare at goats


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Colin Parkinson said:


> The place where men stare at goats


…and the goats stare back.


----------



## daftandbarmy

He was probably from Victoria....

Woman hit with bicycle after confronting cyclist on Langford sidewalk​Suspect was arrested and released for future court date









						Woman hit with bicycle after confronting cyclist on Langford sidewalk - Victoria News
					

Suspect was arrested and released for future court date




					www.vicnews.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

Holy crap....


Man Arrested After Random Assault On Motorist​*Date: *Wednesday, November 24, 2021
*File: *21-46927

*Victoria, BC* – Officers arrested a man with a history of random assaults yesterday after he struck a woman several times through her open vehicle window while she was driving on Cook Street.

Shortly after 2:30 p.m. on Tuesday, November 23rd, Patrol officers responded to a report that a woman was attacked by a pedestrian while driving on Cook Street. The woman was driving southbound on Cook Street, approaching the intersection at Johnson Street, when she encountered a man in the middle of the crosswalk. The man did not have a walk signal.

The woman proceeded slowly around the man and he again moved in front of her vehicle. The woman opened her vehicle’s window and asked the man to move out of the way, at which point he reached into her open window and punched her several times. Thankfully, nearby construction workers came to the woman’s aid and pulled the suspect away from the vehicle, despite his resistance. The construction workers held on to the suspect until police arrived.

Officers arrived on scene and took the man into custody without further incident. The woman was not seriously injured and did not require immediate medical attention.

Officers transported the suspect to VicPD cells where he was held in custody to await a bail hearing.

The suspect, a 42-year-old Victoria man, faces recommended charges of assault and mischief. He is the subject of 15 previous criminal convictions for assault, many of which are random and unprovoked incidents.

This incident remains under investigation. If you have information about this incident, please call our Report Desk and (250) 995-7654, extension 









						Man Arrested After Random Assault On Motorist
					

Date: Wednesday, November 24, 2021 File: 21-46927 Victoria, BC – Officers arrested a man with a history of random assaults yesterday after he struck a




					vicpd.ca


----------



## Good2Golf

Hmmmm…so hard to see things like this coming…

/sarc


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Good2Golf said:


> Hmmmm…so hard to see things like this coming…
> 
> /sarc


Defund the police, they said…

Let everyone out on bail, they said…

Get rid of institutional mental health facilities, they said…


----------



## Good2Golf

SeaKingTacco said:


> Defund the police, they said…
> 
> Let everyone out on bail, they said…
> 
> Get rid of institutional mental health facilities, they said…


Who’d a thunk…


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> E-Comm better up it’s game.  That’s pathetic to the point it should be criminal.



Sounds like they can just hang up on you now.









						B.C. 911 operators can now hang up on callers waiting for ambulances  | Globalnews.ca
					

A new call transfer process announced by E-Comm allows its 911 operators to hang up while their callers wait to be connected with an ambulance.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> Sounds like they can just hang up on you now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B.C. 911 operators can now hang up on callers waiting for ambulances  | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> A new call transfer process announced by E-Comm allows its 911 operators to hang up while their callers wait to be connected with an ambulance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca



That should be well received (not).


----------



## daftandbarmy

Wow... this is horrible...

Police seek witnesses after forests minister knocked down near legislature​ 
Katrine Conroy received minor injuries and was treated in hospital after encountering an unknown person as she was walking in the area of the B.C. legislature between 8 and 8:30 p.m.

Victoria police are looking for witnesses and additional information after Forests Minister Katrine Conroy was knocked down and injured Tuesday night.

She received minor injuries and was treated in hospital after encountering an unknown person as she was walking in the area of the B.C. legislature between 8 and 8:30 p.m.

Police say someone might have helped her afterward and they would like to speak to that individual.









						Police seek witnesses after forests minister knocked down near legislature
					

Katrine Conroy received minor injuries and was treated in hospital after encountering an unknown person as she was walking in the area of the B.C. legislature between 8 and 8:30 p.m.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Nice to see they are democratizing violence and ensuring it's not limited by class.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Survey says.... OMG:

*Victoria police officers and staff report 'toxic' work culture*

The study found low levels of morale and high rates of post-traumatic stress disorder among the force's officers.

A majority of officers and civilians employed by the Victoria Police Department describe their workplace as “toxic,” “negative” and “micromanaged.”

That’s the finding of a 186-page study, funded by both the police union and senior management, that looked into the well-being and mental health of Victoria police officers and civilian staff, and examined the department’s ability to respond to their needs.

Victoria Police Chief Del Manak and union president Len Hollingsworth released a joint statement Wednesday, encouraging all staff to read the report while they review the recommendations.

“We welcome the information gathered in this report, as it will inform ways in which we can improve our workplace culture and help our people meet the challenges of our current operational environment … Gathering honest reflections from our team is a critical step in developing strategies to support the health and well-being of our staff,” they said.

The study found low levels of morale and high rates of post-traumatic stress disorder. Twenty-two per cent of officers and 24 per cent of civilians report clinical symptoms of PTSD. About 50 officers are on leave for various reasons. Patrol shifts are struggling to meet minimum staffing levels.

The study found the workplace culture is characterized by lack of trust and little communication between senior management and officers, “and a senior management team that is preoccupied with external events and stakeholders to the perceived detriment of the officers.”

Bullying and harassment are not the sources of stress, the researchers concluded.

“For many officers, the dynamics of life inside the building are more challenging than those faced on the street,” the study found.

Decision-making is not transparent, and rumours and stress surround impending decisions into which the rank-and-file have little input, it says.

“They also feel their opinions do not count in the organization and there will be consequences should they speak up and express their views. This includes disclosing mental health challenges.”

Both civilian employees and officers generally spoke favourably of their direct supervisors and were most likely to disclose their mental-health issues to them.

Officers identified workload, internal politics, lack of support from councils, the demands of frontline policing and police oversight as the top five stressors. Officers and civilians want to improve communication with “distant” senior managers.

A significant number of officers said the department was “an unhealthy environment” and their mental health wasn’t valued.

Staff say they often feel as if they are treated as a “resource” rather than a person. In addition, officers who are away from the department on leave often feel isolated and forgotten.

Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps said the police board was very concerned when it learned that officers don’t feel they have the support from the department that they need to do their jobs.

“I’m glad, and the board is glad, that the chief and the union are going to take joint action to make VicPd a healthier workplace when it comes to taking mental-health issues and stress-related injuries seriously, providing the supports that are needed,” said Helps, co-chair of the police board.

“It’s probably a bit of a wake-up call for the department, for the management, for the union and for the board. The only thing you can do after getting survey results like this is take the recommended actions and make the workplace better.”

The mayor said she supports the creation of a disability prevention and return-to-work co-ordinator, which the union has requested.

“With mental-health injuries, the more support people have, the more they feel supported, the sooner they can return to work and that takes some of the stress off their colleagues. This survey will hopefully make this position come to reality pretty quickly.”

Helps says she wholeheartedly supports the officers and the police department. She advised those who don’t feel supported by council to “block out the comments they hear from individual councillors” and look at council’s record of endorsing and supporting the police budget each year.

Esquimalt Mayor Barb Desjardins said there are many things in the survey the police board has to take a look at.

“I know the chief and senior management are working with the union on how to move things forward. The board wants to understand all of the steps and what we can do,” said Desjardins, who co-chairs the police board with Helps.

Clearly, the officers have been under a lot of stress as front-line workers during COVID and dealing with significant challenges in Victoria, she said.

The Mental Health and Well-Being Project was prepared by Curt Griffiths of Simon Fraser University’s school of criminology, Eli Sopow of University Canada West and Joshua Murphy of Kwantlen Polytechnic University’s department of criminology.

Seventy-nine per cent of officers and 47 per cent of civilians responded to an online survey, answering questions about workplace culture, stress and stressors, stigma and psychological health.

Victoria police officers and staff report 'toxic' work culture


----------



## Good2Golf

> [Mayor Lisa Helps] “It’s probably a bit of a wake-up call for the department, for the management, for the union and for the board. The only thing you can do after getting survey results like this is take the recommended actions and make the workplace better.”



Yeah, because I’m sure there’s no discordant influence/pressure coming from city council to keep the police from effectively dealing with the lawlessness, for risk of not appearing un-Kumbaya… 🙄


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good2Golf said:


> Yeah, because I’m sure there’s no discordant influence/pressure coming from city council to keep the police from effectively dealing with the lawlessness, for risk of not appearing un-Kumbaya… 🙄



No, of course not.

Oh wait, what's this?

Petition calls for suspension of Victoria councillor Ben Isitt​Isitt says petition ‘does not provide a reliable barometer of public opinion’

Nearly 2,000 people have signed a petition calling for Coun. Ben Isitt’s suspension, following comments connected to recent protests.
Isitt attended a demonstration put on by the supporters of the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs as a citizen on Feb. 11. Following the demonstration, where allegations of assault were reported to Victoria police, Isitt chastised the police and the media.









						Petition calls for suspension of Victoria councillor Ben Isitt - Victoria News
					

Isitt says petition ‘does not provide a reliable barometer of public opinion’




					www.vicnews.com


----------



## SeaKingTacco

daftandbarmy said:


> No, of course not.
> 
> Oh wait, what's this?
> 
> Petition calls for suspension of Victoria councillor Ben Isitt​Isitt says petition ‘does not provide a reliable barometer of public opinion’
> 
> Nearly 2,000 people have signed a petition calling for Coun. Ben Isitt’s suspension, following comments connected to recent protests.
> Isitt attended a demonstration put on by the supporters of the Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs as a citizen on Feb. 11. Following the demonstration, where allegations of assault were reported to Victoria police, Isitt chastised the police and the media.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Petition calls for suspension of Victoria councillor Ben Isitt - Victoria News
> 
> 
> Isitt says petition ‘does not provide a reliable barometer of public opinion’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vicnews.com


Oh, I see. Petitions are only a reliable barometer of public opinion, when they are in favour of your picked issues.

Got it, Ben.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Downtown is brutal.  My wife works right beside the Bay Centre on Douglas St and the issues they deal with would shock some of you.

I had an incident myself two days ago downtown after dropping off my wife at work.  I decided to have a Coffee at a local shop.

I was sitting there minding my business when an aggressive male, clearly homeless, came in and tried to use their washroom.

The women behind the counter told him that he needed to leave and he then proceeded to get in their face and ask to use their phone and demanded they give him a coffee. 

When they told him NO he tried going behind the counter.  It was at this point that I got up and told him to leave and he got right in my face and called me a "f@***t". 

I laughed and told him "he smelled like **** and to go have a shower and if he touched me or anyone else in the place he would answer for it". 

He left and stormed off down the street.  He had his hands in his pockets the entire time so I was anticipating him pulling a knife or blade on me the entire time. 

I was thanked by the store owners wished everyone a merry christmas.  The downtown needs a good clean up crew to go in there and clear out the riff raff.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Downtown is brutal.  My wife works right beside the Bay Centre on Douglas St and the issues they deal with would shock some of you.
> 
> I had an incident myself two days ago downtown after dropping off my wife at work.  I decided to have a Coffee at a local shop.
> 
> I was sitting there minding my business when an aggressive male, clearly homeless, came in and tried to use their washroom.
> 
> The women behind the counter told him that he needed to leave and he then proceeded to get in their face and ask to use their phone and demanded they give him a coffee.
> 
> When they told him NO he tried going behind the counter.  It was at this point that I got up and told him to leave and he got right in my face and called me a "f@***t".
> 
> I laughed and told him "he smelled like **** and to go have a shower and if he touched me or anyone else in the place he would answer for it".
> 
> He left and stormed off down the street.  He had his hands in his pockets the entire time so I was anticipating him pulling a knife or blade on me the entire time.
> 
> I was thanked by the store owners wished everyone a merry christmas.  The downtown needs a good clean up crew to go in there and clear out the riff raff.



Holy crap. If you can be bothered, it's worth reporting that. Nice work.

I walk down that way on a regular basis.  It seems like every time I do there's another store front shop closing up to move elsewhere. I wear sunglasses, whether or not it's sunny, for the same reason many bodyguards do. It's come in handy a couple of times.

Soon, there'll just be tumble weeds, and cycling city councillors, traversing the fading rainbow painted sidewalks on their way to yet another protest at the Legislature.


----------



## OldSolduer

SeaKingTacco said:


> Oh, I see. Petitions are only a reliable barometer of public opinion, when they are in favour of your picked issues.
> 
> Got it, Ben.


NEVER underestimate the self righteousness and self importance of the "guilty white liberal apologist"


----------



## Colin Parkinson

So if a homeless indigenous person beats a urban openly gay person into a coma is that the result of colonialism?


----------



## CBH99

Colin Parkinson said:


> So if a homeless indigenous person beats a urban openly gay person into a coma is that the result of colonialism?


Yupp.  White guy’s ancestors shouldn’t have come and taken all the land.  (I’m assuming the victim is white because you mentioned colonialism…)

Or is it a crime?  🤨


----------



## CBH99

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Downtown is brutal.  My wife works right beside the Bay Centre on Douglas St and the issues they deal with would shock some of you.
> 
> I had an incident myself two days ago downtown after dropping off my wife at work.  I decided to have a Coffee at a local shop.
> 
> I was sitting there minding my business when an aggressive male, clearly homeless, came in and tried to use their washroom.
> 
> The women behind the counter told him that he needed to leave and he then proceeded to get in their face and ask to use their phone and demanded they give him a coffee.
> 
> When they told him NO he tried going behind the counter.  It was at this point that I got up and told him to leave and he got right in my face and called me a "f@***t".
> 
> I laughed and told him "he smelled like **** and to go have a shower and if he touched me or anyone else in the place he would answer for it".
> 
> He left and stormed off down the street.  He had his hands in his pockets the entire time so I was anticipating him pulling a knife or blade on me the entire time.
> 
> I was thanked by the store owners wished everyone a merry christmas.  The downtown needs a good clean up crew to go in there and clear out the riff raff.


Nicely done sir.  

For some reason, the way you wrote this out, I feel is a good reminder to all of us to watch the hands, and don’t get complacent.  

Stay safe!


(Here I thought Victoria was super nice… never would have expected this stuff.)


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Survey says.... OMG:
> 
> *Victoria police officers and staff report 'toxic' work culture*
> 
> The study found low levels of morale and high rates of post-traumatic stress disorder among the force's officers.
> 
> A majority of officers and civilians employed by the Victoria Police Department describe their workplace as “toxic,” “negative” and “micromanaged.”
> 
> That’s the finding of a 186-page study, funded by both the police union and senior management, that looked into the well-being and mental health of Victoria police officers and civilian staff, and examined the department’s ability to respond to their needs.
> 
> Victoria Police Chief Del Manak and union president Len Hollingsworth released a joint statement Wednesday, encouraging all staff to read the report while they review the recommendations.
> 
> “We welcome the information gathered in this report, as it will inform ways in which we can improve our workplace culture and help our people meet the challenges of our current operational environment … Gathering honest reflections from our team is a critical step in developing strategies to support the health and well-being of our staff,” they said.
> 
> The study found low levels of morale and high rates of post-traumatic stress disorder. Twenty-two per cent of officers and 24 per cent of civilians report clinical symptoms of PTSD. About 50 officers are on leave for various reasons. Patrol shifts are struggling to meet minimum staffing levels.
> 
> The study found the workplace culture is characterized by lack of trust and little communication between senior management and officers, “and a senior management team that is preoccupied with external events and stakeholders to the perceived detriment of the officers.”
> 
> Bullying and harassment are not the sources of stress, the researchers concluded.
> 
> 
> 
> Decision-making is not transparent, and rumours and stress surround impending decisions into which the rank-and-file have little input, it says.
> 
> “They also feel their opinions do not count in the organization and there will be consequences should they speak up and express their views. This includes disclosing mental health challenges.”
> 
> Both civilian employees and officers generally spoke favourably of their direct supervisors and were most likely to disclose their mental-health issues to them.
> 
> Officers identified workload, internal politics, lack of support from councils, the demands of frontline policing and police oversight as the top five stressors. Officers and civilians want to improve communication with “distant” senior managers.
> 
> A significant number of officers said the department was “an unhealthy environment” and their mental health wasn’t valued.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “I’m glad, and the board is glad, that the chief and the union are going to take joint action to make VicPd a healthier workplace when it comes to taking mental-health issues and stress-related injuries seriously, providing the supports that are needed,” said Helps, co-chair of the police board.
> 
> “It’s probably a bit of a wake-up call for the department, for the management, for the union and for the board. The only thing you can do after getting survey results like this is take the recommended actions and make the workplace better.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seventy-nine
> 
> Victoria police officers and staff report 'toxic' work culture


doing this on my phone, so my apologies for the spacing issues.  

So basically…

-  Senior management (HATE that word in this profession) need to be transparent with ranks and file members.  Leadership 101.  

-  nobody likes internal politics, being micromanaged, or thrown under a bus.  

-  Senior management is clearly out of touch with rank & file.  Seems to have created 2 different camps.  

-  Basic leadership would have noticed and rectified issues before they got this bad.  Shouldn’t have taken a 186 page report.  


Be kind.  Be professional.  Be transparent about organizational decisions and why those decisions are made.  Same goes for decisions about individuals.  Ask for input.  

Take care of your troops, basically.  



But the organization can only do so much.  BC as a province needs to figure out some basics when it comes to sentencing & procedures.  

Police can’t do much if judges & courts don’t do their jobs also.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

A lot of the sentencing is actually in the bailiwick of the feds. But yeah, the Province of BC is extremely lax on pre-trial bail.


----------



## daftandbarmy

911 stars again ....

911 dispatch apologizes to Victoria business after ignoring calls for help during COVID-19 protest​
Greater Victoria’s 911 dispatch service is apologizing to the staff of a downtown Starbucks after calls for help were ignored.

During a large anti-vaccine mandate protest on Saturday, management of a Starbucks across from B.C.’s legislature say unruly protesters entered the business unmasked and refused to leave.

Manager Rich Becker said his staff were being threatened and he believed they were in danger.


“They were directly in harm’s way,” said Becker.

Unwilling to physically remove the protesters himself, Becker called police twice. He says his calls for help were ignored and he was told to call the non-emergency line.

E-Comm, which manages 911 dispatch in Greater Victoria, admits that was a mistake.

After CTV News pressed Victoria police for answers about the 911 calls, E-Comm conducted an investigation of the incident.

“After reviewing both 911 calls, we can confirm that based on the situation the caller was describing, a police file should have been created,” said E-Comm spokesperson Jasmine Bradley.

“Unfortunately, this was not the case and the caller was incorrectly referred to the non-emergency line," Bradley added.

E-Comm and the Victoria police both apologized to Becker and his staff for the mistake. E-Comm says a 911 call was warranted and staff did the right thing by calling.

Becker says he will be back at the Starbucks all day on Saturday as another, possibly larger, anti-vaccine mandate rally is planned for the legislature.

Following a challenging day for Hotel Grand Pacific staff last Saturday, the manager there says the hotel will add extra security this Saturday.

“The hotel will be accessible for registered hotel guests only,” said general manager Reid James. “Our washrooms and parking lot will be closed to the public. Additional security will be in place.”

B.C. Premier John Horgan addressed the abuse that several Victoria businesses faced last week in an interview with CFAX 1070 radio Friday.

"My message to the protesters is, 'I hear you, but don’t take away other peoples' liberties to declare that yours are being abused,'" said Horgan.
Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps issued a statement Friday, asking protesters to be respectful and avoid harassing local businesses. 

"As the capital city, we expect protests to take place and people to exercise their democratic right to gather and express their views," Helps said.
“However, emails from residents and businesses in the wake of last weekend’s protests show that some of the people involved in the protests went beyond the right to peacefully gather and infringed on the well-being and safety of others."

The mayor said the city received reports last weekend of people throwing eggs at homes that had signs up supporting health-care workers, as well as complaints of racist language among protesters. 









						911 dispatch apologizes to Victoria business after ignoring calls for help during COVID-19 protest
					

Greater Victoria’s 911 dispatch service is apologizing to the staff of a downtown Starbucks after calls for help were ignored.




					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:


> 911 stars again ....
> 
> 911 dispatch apologizes to Victoria business after ignoring calls for help during COVID-19 protest​
> Greater Victoria’s 911 dispatch service is apologizing to the staff of a downtown Starbucks after calls for help were ignored.
> 
> During a large anti-vaccine mandate protest on Saturday, management of a Starbucks across from B.C.’s legislature say unruly protesters entered the business unmasked and refused to leave.
> 
> Manager Rich Becker said his staff were being threatened and he believed they were in danger.
> 
> 
> “They were directly in harm’s way,” said Becker.
> 
> Unwilling to physically remove the protesters himself, Becker called police twice. He says his calls for help were ignored and he was told to call the non-emergency line.
> 
> E-Comm, which manages 911 dispatch in Greater Victoria, admits that was a mistake.
> 
> After CTV News pressed Victoria police for answers about the 911 calls, E-Comm conducted an investigation of the incident.
> 
> “After reviewing both 911 calls, we can confirm that based on the situation the caller was describing, a police file should have been created,” said E-Comm spokesperson Jasmine Bradley.
> 
> “Unfortunately, this was not the case and the caller was incorrectly referred to the non-emergency line," Bradley added.
> 
> E-Comm and the Victoria police both apologized to Becker and his staff for the mistake. E-Comm says a 911 call was warranted and staff did the right thing by calling.
> 
> Becker says he will be back at the Starbucks all day on Saturday as another, possibly larger, anti-vaccine mandate rally is planned for the legislature.
> 
> Following a challenging day for Hotel Grand Pacific staff last Saturday, the manager there says the hotel will add extra security this Saturday.
> 
> “The hotel will be accessible for registered hotel guests only,” said general manager Reid James. “Our washrooms and parking lot will be closed to the public. Additional security will be in place.”
> 
> B.C. Premier John Horgan addressed the abuse that several Victoria businesses faced last week in an interview with CFAX 1070 radio Friday.
> 
> "My message to the protesters is, 'I hear you, but don’t take away other peoples' liberties to declare that yours are being abused,'" said Horgan.
> Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps issued a statement Friday, asking protesters to be respectful and avoid harassing local businesses.
> 
> "As the capital city, we expect protests to take place and people to exercise their democratic right to gather and express their views," Helps said.
> “However, emails from residents and businesses in the wake of last weekend’s protests show that some of the people involved in the protests went beyond the right to peacefully gather and infringed on the well-being and safety of others."
> 
> The mayor said the city received reports last weekend of people throwing eggs at homes that had signs up supporting health-care workers, as well as complaints of racist language among protesters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 911 dispatch apologizes to Victoria business after ignoring calls for help during COVID-19 protest
> 
> 
> Greater Victoria’s 911 dispatch service is apologizing to the staff of a downtown Starbucks after calls for help were ignored.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


One of my pals who is a Police Officer in Ontario asked me about Victoria because he is originally from Vancouver and was looking at the signing bonus on offer as a way to transfer and be closer to family.

My reply:  There is a reason for a signing bonus and it's not because of the stellar work environment.  You should look at Saanich or Oak Bay PD 😉


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:


> One of my pals who is a Police Officer in Ontario asked me about Victoria because he is originally from Vancouver and was looking at the signing bonus on offer as a way to transfer and be closer to family.
> 
> My reply:  There is a reason for a signing bonus and it's not because of the stellar work environment.  You should look at Saanich or Oak Bay PD 😉



Oak Bay's Chief just retired so there should be some kind of job ad out there.

Unless you're not looking forward to the pace of work 'behind the Tweed Curtain' (BYO pillow   ).


----------



## daftandbarmy

But yeah, you go ahead and de-fund the Police Victoria City. And these random attacks are even worse in Vancouver ...

Fatal-stabbing suspect in court for breach of bail conditions; victim remembered as a 'positive light'

The man killed in downtown Victoria on Tuesday has been identified as John Dickinson by his sister, who has started a fundraiser to bring her brother’s body back to their mother in Ontario.

John Dickinson has been identified by family as the man fatally stabbed in downtown Victoria on Tuesday, March 1, 2022. VIA FACEBOOK

A suspect in the fatal stabbing of a young man in downtown Victoria appeared in court Wednesday morning for allegedly breaching his bail conditions on an earlier charge of attempted murder.

The 28-year-old Royal Roads University student was arrested and detained Tuesday after the early-morning stabbing outside Lucky Bar on lower Yates Street.

He faces three charges in connection with a stabbing Feb. 6 on Lang Street. The attempted-murder charge alleges he stabbed his victim with one or more knives. He is also charged with committing aggravated assault and breaking and entering a locked bedroom in the Lang Street house.

Fatal-stabbing suspect in court for breach of bail conditions; victim remembered as a 'positive light'


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, City Council still thinks the Police are beasts and should be defunded....


Surge of violent youth crime downtown, Victoria police say​ 
Large groups of youths have been coming into downtown on Friday and Saturday nights to drink and take drugs, police say. Some of the youths have been attacking strangers.

Victoria police say they are dealing with a surge in youth crime and violence downtown, including vandalism, assaults with weapons and random attacks on the elderly, homeless, business owners and passersby.

VicPD said in a statement large groups of youth from surrounding municipalities have begun coming into downtown on Friday and Saturday nights to consume alcohol and drugs.

Some nights, police said there have been 150 youth in groups of various sizes.

VicPD Patrol and Community Services Division officers have been responding to more than two dozen calls for violent offences, including assaults with weapons, attacks on the elderly and unhoused community and, in one case, the swarming of a police officer.

There have also been numerous reports of mischief, vandalism and property damage, as well as open consumption of alcohol and drugs by underage youth creating “medical incidents.”

Police noted some of the groups have started gathering on weekdays.

VicPD gave examples of what its officers have dealt with:


Friday, May 6

• A group of 100 youths were in the area of Government and Douglas streets, with some of them jumping on car roofs, kicking car doors and damaging transit signs.

• A couple were swarmed by a group of 20 youths in the  900 block of Douglas Street. The couple were randomly attacked, with youths grabbing one of the victims by the throat and striking her, while continuing to beat and kick the other member of the couple. The couple were able to break away and flee, calling 911 once they were safe. The couple suffered injuries which did not require medical attention.

• Officers were alerted to a group fighting near Douglas Street and Pandora Avenue. Youths surrounded and began harassing two unhoused people. During the confrontation, one of the unhoused persons struck one of the youths in the face with a flashlight and then fled.

The injured youth, who was intoxicated, suffered facial injuries. He declined medical treatment and was driven home to his Langford residence and released to a parent.

• Patrol officers were flagged down near View and Douglas streets for a youth who was lying in the road with hand injuries. Officers discovered a female youth, showing clear signs of intoxication and suffering non-life-threatening hand injuries.

As officers investigated, they learned she had been part of a group that swarmed and assaulted two people. One of the victims was struck in the face and both victims fled to a vehicle.










						Surge of violent youth crime downtown, Victoria police say
					

Large groups of youths have been coming into downtown on Friday and Saturday nights to drink and take drugs, police say. Some of the youths have been attacking strangers.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Good2Golf

It seems like the citizens of Victoria are just experiencing things differently than Council.


----------



## Booter

almost like the most vulnerable are in a different economic class that aren’t given much thought by the people who “know” better.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Good2Golf said:


> It seems like the citizens of Victoria are just experiencing things differently than Council.


One of my sailors stopped a knife attack a couple of days ago:









						Another random attack in downtown Victoria sees man threatened with a knife
					

VicPD are investigating another random attack in Victoria that saw a man threatened with a knife yesterday.




					www.victoriabuzz.com
				






> Shortly before 1 p.m. Monday afternoon, a man called 911 to report that he had just been approached by another man who had tried to stab him.
> 
> The incident occurred in the area of Blanshard and Hill Streets. The caller told dispatchers the unknown man approached him, then threatened him and brandished a weapon.
> 
> Remaining a distance away from the suspect, the caller relayed the suspect’s location to the 911 call taker. With that information, officers were able to locate the suspect and take him into custody at gunpoint.


This is also about 5% of the story....

What the story leaves out is after this knife wielding man tried to stab my sailor who successfully kept his distance, the assailant tried to approach an old man and stab him.

My sailor yelled at the old man who got in his car and locked the doors, he then chased the assailant (who ran away) for 15 minutes on a foot pursuit while talking to dispatchers and keeping them on the line.

At one point he lost the suspect who had ducked in to an alleyway but then saw him again (suspect had thrown his hat away and ditch his coat and clothes ), he had also ditched the knife).  My sailor recognized him and continue to follow him.

Officers arrived about 20 minutes after the initial attack and took the suspect down at gunpoint.  They also had a K9 unit arrive and the dog found the knife and additional clothing.

They took my Sailor's statement, arrested the assailant and left.  Apparently the suspect had been released from jail the day before.

My sailor lives in the neighborhood and was walking and saw the same suspect yesterday apparently out on the streets again 🤣

You're all on your own and you better be prepared for a fight when it happens, 20 min for the cops to show up 😉

I'm nominating him for a commendation btw.


My spouse cannot wait to leave Victoria.  She hates it here and hates working downtown.  She also hates homeless people now.  Funny considering she used to want to be a social worker LOL


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:


> One of my sailors stopped a knife attack a couple of days ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another random attack in downtown Victoria sees man threatened with a knife
> 
> 
> VicPD are investigating another random attack in Victoria that saw a man threatened with a knife yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.victoriabuzz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is also about 5% of the story....
> 
> What the story leaves out is after this knife wielding man tried to stab my sailor who successfully kept his distance, the assailant tried to approach an old man and stab him.
> 
> My sailor yelled at the old man who got in his car and locked the doors, he then chased the assailant (who ran away) for 15 minutes on a foot pursuit while talking to dispatchers and keeping them on the line.
> 
> At one point he lost the suspect who had ducked in to an alleyway but then saw him again (suspect had thrown his hat away and ditch his coat and clothes ), he had also ditched the knife).  My sailor recognized him and continue to follow him.
> 
> Officers arrived about 20 minutes after the initial attack and took the suspect down at gunpoint.  They also had a K9 unit arrive and the dog found the knife and additional clothing.
> 
> They took my Sailor's statement, arrested the assailant and left.  Apparently the suspect had been released from jail the day before.
> 
> My sailor lives in the neighborhood and was walking and saw the same suspect yesterday apparently out on the streets again 🤣
> 
> You're all on your own and you better be prepared for a fight when it happens, 20 min for the cops to show up 😉
> 
> *I'm nominating him for a commendation btw.*
> 
> 
> My spouse cannot wait to leave Victoria.  She hates it here and hates working downtown.  She also hates homeless people now.  Funny considering she used to want to be a social worker LOL



Holy crap...


----------



## Brad Sallows

Tolerance is not infinite.  Eventually some people will fight back.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Brad Sallows said:


> Tolerance is not infinite.  Eventually some people will fight back.


No kidding, all I can say is if any one of them ever came after my spouse at her work, the authorities better keep them in jail, for their own safety 😉.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Humphrey Bogart said:


> One of my sailors stopped a knife attack a couple of days ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another random attack in downtown Victoria sees man threatened with a knife
> 
> 
> VicPD are investigating another random attack in Victoria that saw a man threatened with a knife yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.victoriabuzz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is also about 5% of the story....
> 
> What the story leaves out is after this knife wielding man tried to stab my sailor who successfully kept his distance, the assailant tried to approach an old man and stab him.
> 
> My sailor yelled at the old man who got in his car and locked the doors, he then chased the assailant (who ran away) for 15 minutes on a foot pursuit while talking to dispatchers and keeping them on the line.
> 
> At one point he lost the suspect who had ducked in to an alleyway but then saw him again (suspect had thrown his hat away and ditch his coat and clothes ), he had also ditched the knife).  My sailor recognized him and continue to follow him.
> 
> Officers arrived about 20 minutes after the initial attack and took the suspect down at gunpoint.  They also had a K9 unit arrive and the dog found the knife and additional clothing.
> 
> They took my Sailor's statement, arrested the assailant and left.  Apparently the suspect had been released from jail the day before.
> 
> My sailor lives in the neighborhood and was walking and saw the same suspect yesterday apparently out on the streets again 🤣
> 
> You're all on your own and you better be prepared for a fight when it happens, 20 min for the cops to show up 😉
> 
> I'm nominating him for a commendation btw.
> 
> 
> My spouse cannot wait to leave Victoria.  She hates it here and hates working downtown.  She also hates homeless people now.  Funny considering she used to want to be a social worker LOL


That story should be a PAO dream story, but I doubt they print it as it does not speak about his gender transformation at the same time. A big BZ to the sailor.


----------



## Good2Golf

Humphrey Bogart said:


> One of my sailors stopped a knife attack a couple of days ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another random attack in downtown Victoria sees man threatened with a knife
> 
> 
> VicPD are investigating another random attack in Victoria that saw a man threatened with a knife yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.victoriabuzz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is also about 5% of the story....
> 
> What the story leaves out is after this knife wielding man tried to stab my sailor who successfully kept his distance, the assailant tried to approach an old man and stab him.
> 
> My sailor yelled at the old man who got in his car and locked the doors, he then chased the assailant (who ran away) for 15 minutes on a foot pursuit while talking to dispatchers and keeping them on the line.
> 
> At one point he lost the suspect who had ducked in to an alleyway but then saw him again (suspect had thrown his hat away and ditch his coat and clothes ), he had also ditched the knife).  My sailor recognized him and continue to follow him.
> 
> Officers arrived about 20 minutes after the initial attack and took the suspect down at gunpoint.  They also had a K9 unit arrive and the dog found the knife and additional clothing.
> 
> They took my Sailor's statement, arrested the assailant and left.  Apparently the suspect had been released from jail the day before.
> 
> My sailor lives in the neighborhood and was walking and saw the same suspect yesterday apparently out on the streets again 🤣
> 
> You're all on your own and you better be prepared for a fight when it happens, 20 min for the cops to show up 😉
> 
> I'm nominating him for a commendation btw.
> 
> 
> My spouse cannot wait to leave Victoria.  She hates it here and hates working downtown.  She also hates homeless people now.  Funny considering she used to want to be a social worker LOL



Don’t get me wrong, HB, that’s all good and all, but I wouldn’t be parading this around as such a great thing overall for the CAF…sounds like he didn’t conduct a GBA+ assessment of the situation first.  As well, he may have been guilty of using ‘non-minority privilege’ in the altercation.  Perhaps a redo by the sailor of the DLN Diversity-Equity-Inclusion course is in order?


🧂


----------



## medicineman

Man, Victoria is starting to sound like downtown Floodpeg...


----------



## Grimey

Brad Sallows said:


> Tolerance is not infinite.  Eventually some people will fight back.


I think the pendulum is in the early stages of swinging back with a vengeance.


----------



## daftandbarmy

medicineman said:


> Man, Victoria is starting to sound like downtown Floodpeg...



On the upside, all the 'no go' zones force me to walk a few extra blocks between meetings these days 

Opinion: The sad decline of Victoria’s Douglas Street​
If you only knew Douglas Street’s most southern end where it intersects with Dallas Road at Beacon Hill Park, you’d think it was one of the loveliest streets on Vancouver Island. It has an ocean-view of the United States where the road terminates, with greenery flanking it on both sides. Occasional tents, now deemed illegal to the relief of the neighborhood’s residents, are the only blemish on the otherwise idyllic street.

Unfortunately, this is not the Douglas Street that everybody knows or pictures when they hear its name.

The majority of Douglas Street is a grimy, decaying thoroughfare that would resemble a ghost town if it weren’t for the constant stream of double-decker buses at Fort Street. When was the last time somebody asked a friend to go spend the day hanging out on Douglas Street? Maybe if they are going to the Public Market at the Hudson, if they are seeking typically yuppie activities.

When people usually spend time in Douglas, they are getting drunk at one of the street’s institutions of inebriation like the Sticky Wicket or Peacock Billiards. Another popular place to not bring your car keys is the local Cactus Club, which is a wealthy chain that can afford to operate a business on Douglas. That Cactus Club outlet is not unlike many of the other businesses that can afford to locate itself on Douglas, where it looks inevitable that only corporate empires can survive. For evidence, some of the only businesses that seem secure on Douglas are Cactus Club, Dollarama, McDonalds, and Shoppers Drug Mart.

Douglas Street has become the graveyard of small business in Victoria’s downtown core. Even the outlets in the Bay Centre that face Douglas Street seem unable to retain operators for more than a year. The Bay Centre itself feels like a husk of a mall, hollowed out by the development of Uptown and the attractive business climate of the rapidly growing West Shore communities. It is perhaps no coincidence that the only businesses in the Bay Centre that seem healthy, like Hudson’s Bay or Below the Belt, face Government Street on the other side of the mall.

The sheer amount of visible poverty on Douglas Street is growing as well. Pandora Avenue is the closest thing Victoria has to a Skid Row, and whether it is the closest thing or the real thing at this point is ambiguous. Not only is Pandora’s poverty seemingly permanent at this point, but its sad character is leaking onto Douglas as well and cementing itself there outside the Shoppers Drug Mart and the McDonald’s. The street’s troubling decay is not limited to people sleeping in doorways. The many historic apartments, such as the ones above the Circle-K at Yates and Douglas, are decrepit with no hopes for restoration in a city that supposedly still prides itself on its architectural heritage.

It is worth asking: do people feel safer walking alone at night on Government Street or Douglas Street? Most people will answer with the former, and for good reason. Attacks on strangers are all too frequent on Douglas, including a store employee who has headbutted in February, and a driver’s window that was smashed by a rock in an unprovoked attack. This is not the environment that creates a healthy economy, or an attractive venue for one.

Douglas Street will never be Government Street, and nobody should expect it to be. Government is relatively unimportant for vehicular traffic, and one of the crown jewels of Victoria’s tourism hubs. Douglas forms part of Highway 1, which connects to the West Shore and up-Island, and connects with Highway 17, which lead to the ferries. They are two streets that serve different purposes. Nonetheless, there is no good excuse to allow Douglas to continue on its grubby decline to a place only popular after 10 p.m. on Friday.










						Opinion: The sad decline of Victoria's Douglas Street
					

The majority of Douglas Street is a grimy, decaying thoroughfare that would resemble a ghost town if it weren’t for the constant stream of double-decker buses at Fort Street, writes Geoff Russ.




					www.cheknews.ca


----------



## medicineman

Funny thing, there are parts of Douglas I woudn't be caught alone and unarmed after dark well before COVID started, even when I was growing up in the 80's.

Sad.


----------



## RangerRay

I remember seeing McBouncers at the McDonald’s on Douglas and View in the early 90’s.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Shame.  The area used to be rich with game and hobby shops.


----------



## OldSolduer

medicineman said:


> Man, Victoria is starting to sound like downtown Floodpeg...


It happens every year. Fires or floods. 

And our own population of ne’er do wells are quite well entrenched


----------



## medicineman

Brad Sallows said:


> Shame.  The area used to be rich with game and hobby shops.


Yes indeed.



OldSolduer said:


> It happens every year. Fires or floods.
> 
> And our own population of ne’er do wells are quite well entrenched



Yupp...my head's on a swivel, even at work


----------



## daftandbarmy

medicineman said:


> Funny thing, there are parts of Douglas I woudn't be caught alone and unarmed after dark well before COVID started, even when I was growing up in the 80's.
> 
> Sad.



I saw a guy the other day just off of Douglas and View Street junction, slumped in a stairwell unconscious, with a needle in his hand. He'd clearly checked out after shooting up.

Yes, I kept walking...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:


> I saw a guy the other day just off of Douglas and View Street junction, slumped in a stairwell unconscious, with a needle in his hand. He'd clearly checked out after shooting up.
> 
> Yes, I kept walking...


I was in Vancouver over the weekend.  Took a drive down Hastings just to show my wife.  "See honey, things aren't so bad in Victoria!"  🤣

I did like the solitary VPD car sitting there with their lights on, Officer on their cellphone sitting in the car.  About a 100 street people are beside them just tweaking.

Every single one of those people should be institutionalized, housed, fed, etc.  Until such time that they are capable of looking after themselves.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I was in Vancouver over the weekend.  Took a drive down Hastings just to show my wife.  "See honey, things aren't so bad in Victoria!"  🤣
> 
> I did like the solitary VPD car sitting there with their lights on, Officer on their cellphone sitting in the car.  About a 100 street people are beside them just tweaking.
> 
> Every single one of those people should be institutionalized, housed, fed, etc.  Until such time that they are capable of looking after themselves.



My Dad had an office in downtown Vancouver. 

We'd drive through Gastown and he'd point to street people slumped on the ground and threaten "That's what happens when you don't do your math homework!"

Didn't seem to help much though


----------



## medicineman

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I was in Vancouver over the weekend.  Took a drive down Hastings just to show my wife.  "See honey, things aren't so bad in Victoria!"  🤣
> 
> I did like the solitary VPD car sitting there with their lights on, Officer on their cellphone sitting in the car.  About a 100 street people are beside them just tweaking.
> 
> Every single one of those people should be institutionalized, housed, fed, etc.  Until such time that they are capable of looking after themselves.


I did my trauma rotation at VGH, over off West Broadway - we were warned that if we had a car, be very careful of surroundings as the homeless folks and the addicts made a habit of jumping in front of moving cars to get smoked so they'd end up in hospital for a bit.  I used to hate running around there, as you're fighting for space with usual foot traffic but also people sprawled out everywhere panhandling and such - my hurdles improved though.  When I'd have to go to CFRC Det Van as Bitch de Semaine, before they moved to New West, I'd often end up in a hotel near Hastings and would have to walk past St Paul's Hospital...dodging literal puddles of vomit/piss/shit and God knows whatever else on the sidewalks.


----------



## Halifax Tar

That's awesome @Humphrey Bogart glad to see their efforts are going to be recognized.


----------



## brihard

Humphrey Bogart said:


> One of my sailors stopped a knife attack a couple of days ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another random attack in downtown Victoria sees man threatened with a knife
> 
> 
> VicPD are investigating another random attack in Victoria that saw a man threatened with a knife yesterday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.victoriabuzz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is also about 5% of the story....
> 
> What the story leaves out is after this knife wielding man tried to stab my sailor who successfully kept his distance, the assailant tried to approach an old man and stab him.
> 
> My sailor yelled at the old man who got in his car and locked the doors, he then chased the assailant (who ran away) for 15 minutes on a foot pursuit while talking to dispatchers and keeping them on the line.
> 
> At one point he lost the suspect who had ducked in to an alleyway but then saw him again (suspect had thrown his hat away and ditch his coat and clothes ), he had also ditched the knife).  My sailor recognized him and continue to follow him.
> 
> Officers arrived about 20 minutes after the initial attack and took the suspect down at gunpoint.  They also had a K9 unit arrive and the dog found the knife and additional clothing.
> 
> They took my Sailor's statement, arrested the assailant and left.  Apparently the suspect had been released from jail the day before.
> 
> My sailor lives in the neighborhood and was walking and saw the same suspect yesterday apparently out on the streets again 🤣
> 
> You're all on your own and you better be prepared for a fight when it happens, 20 min for the cops to show up 😉
> 
> I'm nominating him for a commendation btw.
> 
> 
> My spouse cannot wait to leave Victoria.  She hates it here and hates working downtown.  She also hates homeless people now.  Funny considering she used to want to be a social worker LOL


Commendation, hell. Put him in for a Medal of Bravery. You also don’t have to go through CAF for that.


----------



## CBH99

RangerRay said:


> I remember seeing McBouncers at the McDonald’s on Douglas and View in the early 90’s.


Well if you want the bigger lads to stay big while protecting your establishment, that’s a good place for them to work!  😅

Seriously though, bouncers at a McDonalds?  I feel like this is Demolition Man.


----------



## brihard

CBH99 said:


> Well if you want the bigger lads to stay big while protecting your establishment, that’s a good place for them to work!  😅
> 
> Seriously though, bouncers at a McDonalds?  I feel like this is Demolition Man.


The McDonalds on Rideau Street in downtown Ottawa was notoriously stupid a few nights of the week, and used to have security guards as well. The shenanigans at that particular restaurant eventually got so bad they stopped staying open 24/7.

Also, if it was _really_ Demolition Man, it would have been a Taco Bell.


----------



## CBH99

brihard said:


> The McDonalds on Rideau Street in downtown Ottawa was notoriously stupid a few nights of the week, and used to have security guards as well. The shenanigans at that particular restaurant eventually got so bad they stopped staying open 24/7.
> 
> Also, if it was _really_ Demolition Man, it would have been a Taco Bell.


The look on his face when he hears they’ve been invited to Taco Bell… and how gitty she gets at the thought of it 😅

Great movie


----------



## RedFive

brihard said:


> The McDonalds on Rideau Street in downtown Ottawa was notoriously stupid a few nights of the week, and used to have security guards as well. The shenanigans at that particular restaurant eventually got so bad they stopped staying open 24/7.
> 
> Also, if it was _really_ Demolition Man, it would have been a Taco Bell.


There was a McDonald's in my former patrol zone that was next to the most popular night club in the city.

One night there was a sizeable punch up that left a fair number of lightly injured but pissed off former bar patrons in the McDonald's, seething at each other. As you would imagine, another punch up developed, which resulted in the RCMP being called. It was quite the scene, with multiple persons taken to the cell block for a time out or hospital for a patch job, and no meaningful personal or property damage.

The poor girl on her first ever shift as a security guard, boots still spit shone and clip on tie askew quit on the spot. The McDonalds in question is still, somehow, open 24/7. Don't ask me how.


----------



## RangerRay

brihard said:


> The McDonalds on Rideau Street in downtown Ottawa was notoriously stupid a few nights of the week, and used to have security guards as well. The shenanigans at that particular restaurant eventually got so bad they stopped staying open 24/7.
> 
> Also, if it was _really_ Demolition Man, it would have been a Taco Bell.


But were they big dudes with headsets and tight black polos with the Golden Arches embroidered on them?  If not, they weren’t McBouncers! 😁


----------



## daftandbarmy

Struggles continue to stop the revolving door...

Lawrie McFarlane: No study needed — just match sentence to repeat offender's record​B.C. attorney general is ducking responsibility

David Eby, B.C. attorney general and minister responsible for housing, says his government will undertake an investigation into the causes of criminal recidivism, which Lawrie McFarlane says is a bit like the CEO of a flight school asking what an airplane is. 

When B.C.’s Urban Mayors’ Caucus asked provincial Attorney General David Eby for help in dealing with the problem of repeat offenders, Eby himself became a repeat offender.

*It began with Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps, co-chair of the caucus, drawing Eby’s attention to a list of 10 chronic offenders in her city, who alone have had 1,385 run-ins with local police over the past two years.*

In one instance, a repeat offender in the capital region generated 284 police incidents within a 24-month period, was charged 55 times, and registered 22 separate convictions.

The mayors put this steadily worsening situation down to a form of “catch and release” practised by our justice system.

Eby’s first offence was to duck responsibility. He noted that some of these repeat offenders have drug-addiction problems or mental-health issues. 

He urged that what’s needed is more attention to treatment options rather than incarceration. Let the health-care system sort things out.

Yet while there is some truth in that, it by no means explains the sheer dimensions of the problem.

An example: In February, a Similkameen man was sentenced to two years in jail for wild behaviour behind the wheel of a car.

Blake Dunstall was pulled over at an impaired-driving check in Penticton. He failed to produce a licence, and took off at high speed.

Dunstall, aged 38 at the time of his trial, had 97 prior adult convictions. These included seven assault convictions including six against domestic partners, six for driving while prohibited, five for dangerous driving, three for flight from police and two for impaired driving.

Why was this man still at large on the occasion of this latest spree? A study by researchers at the University of Fraser Valley offers an explanation.

They found that “the data … clearly indicate that judges have not been taking prior record into consideration when sentencing repeat offenders.”

That may explain why career criminals, although only a small percentage of all criminals, enjoy almost unlimited freedom to re-offend.

Eby then fell back on a second excuse. He argued that since our courts are independent, he, like other attorneys general, has no say in how they act.

Lawrie McFarlane: No study needed — just match sentence to repeat offender's record


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:


> Struggles continue to stop the revolving door...
> 
> Lawrie McFarlane: No study needed — just match sentence to repeat offender's record​B.C. attorney general is ducking responsibility
> 
> David Eby, B.C. attorney general and minister responsible for housing, says his government will undertake an investigation into the causes of criminal recidivism, which Lawrie McFarlane says is a bit like the CEO of a flight school asking what an airplane is.
> 
> When B.C.’s Urban Mayors’ Caucus asked provincial Attorney General David Eby for help in dealing with the problem of repeat offenders, Eby himself became a repeat offender.
> 
> *It began with Victoria Mayor Lisa Helps, co-chair of the caucus, drawing Eby’s attention to a list of 10 chronic offenders in her city, who alone have had 1,385 run-ins with local police over the past two years.*
> 
> In one instance, a repeat offender in the capital region generated 284 police incidents within a 24-month period, was charged 55 times, and registered 22 separate convictions.
> 
> The mayors put this steadily worsening situation down to a form of “catch and release” practised by our justice system.
> 
> Eby’s first offence was to duck responsibility. He noted that some of these repeat offenders have drug-addiction problems or mental-health issues.
> 
> He urged that what’s needed is more attention to treatment options rather than incarceration. Let the health-care system sort things out.
> 
> Yet while there is some truth in that, it by no means explains the sheer dimensions of the problem.
> 
> An example: In February, a Similkameen man was sentenced to two years in jail for wild behaviour behind the wheel of a car.
> 
> Blake Dunstall was pulled over at an impaired-driving check in Penticton. He failed to produce a licence, and took off at high speed.
> 
> Dunstall, aged 38 at the time of his trial, had 97 prior adult convictions. These included seven assault convictions including six against domestic partners, six for driving while prohibited, five for dangerous driving, three for flight from police and two for impaired driving.
> 
> Why was this man still at large on the occasion of this latest spree? A study by researchers at the University of Fraser Valley offers an explanation.
> 
> They found that “the data … clearly indicate that judges have not been taking prior record into consideration when sentencing repeat offenders.”
> 
> That may explain why career criminals, although only a small percentage of all criminals, enjoy almost unlimited freedom to re-offend.
> 
> Eby then fell back on a second excuse. He argued that since our courts are independent, he, like other attorneys general, has no say in how they act.
> 
> Lawrie McFarlane: No study needed — just match sentence to repeat offender's record


----------



## daftandbarmy

Victoria is #1! Yay!












						#OpenVicPD | Statistics Canada Releases 2021 Crime Severity Indexes For Victoria and Esquimalt
					

Date: Tuesday, August 2nd, 2022 Victoria, BC – Statistics Canada has released Crime Severity Index (CSI) numbers for Victoria and Esquimalt for 2021. The




					vicpd.ca


----------



## OldSolduer

We are seeing an increase in violent crimes (stabbings) here in McStabbyPeg. 
Thank you in part to the doctors of Manitoba crying "wolf" telling the provincial government all the inmates will die if COVID gets in the jail.

What fuciing horse$hit that was.


----------



## Eaglelord17

When I went to Victoria on vacation about two months ago I yelled at a asian guy beating what I assume to be his failed date on the street. He took off running the moment someone actually did anything (she took off the opposite direction), but I can safely say Victoria vastly changed from the last time I was there (about 10 years ago). Tons of homeless (a problem everywhere), but some really sketchy areas that weren't sketchy a decade ago.

The amount of people in society which are also unwilling to step in on situations like the above blows my mind. Most this criminal nonsense would stop if a few people actually stood up to them and put them back in line.


----------



## medicineman

You kind of reminded me of this from a cool series called Mr In Between...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Eaglelord17 said:


> When I went to Victoria on vacation about two months ago I yelled at a asian guy beating what I assume to be his failed date on the street. He took off running the moment someone actually did anything (she took off the opposite direction), but I can safely say Victoria vastly changed from the last time I was there (about 10 years ago). Tons of homeless (a problem everywhere), but some really sketchy areas that weren't sketchy a decade ago.
> 
> The amount of people in society which are also unwilling to step in on situations like the above blows my mind. Most this criminal nonsense would stop if a few people actually stood up to them and put them back in line.



We're heading for slum status:









						Landscaper laments Victoria’s urban decay after being pricked by needle downtown
					

A Victoria landscaper has cancelled a lucrative contract with a downtown business in the Store Street neighbourhood after she was pricked by a used needle while at work. She says she will never take another contract downtown.



					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Jarnhamar

daftandbarmy said:


> We're heading for slum status:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Landscaper laments Victoria’s urban decay after being pricked by needle downtown
> 
> 
> A Victoria landscaper has cancelled a lucrative contract with a downtown business in the Store Street neighbourhood after she was pricked by a used needle while at work. She says she will never take another contract downtown.
> 
> 
> 
> vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


You _ were _ heading for slim status. Mayor Lisa Helps is turning that around by hiring 4 people to pick up needles, socks, and poop.


----------



## OldSolduer

One thing I can tell you:

If society doesn’t invest in a proper mental health care system including secure facilities you end up with a plethora of crazies on the street and in your jails.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

medicineman said:


> You kind of reminded me of this from a cool series called Mr In Between...


That was AWESOME!!


----------



## mariomike

From up-thread.  Deinstitutionalization.



FJAG said:


> That's why they are there in such numbers but lets face facts, much of the violent homeless problem has its genesis from the process of deinstitutionalization which took hold in the country (actually continent) around the mid 1970s and spanned several years. Deinstitutionalization replaced many mental health institutions by a loose grouping of homes, care homes, and half way houses with far too many diverting to the streets, general hospitals and, all too often, jails.
> 
> It's politically incorrect to point out that the system, while laudable, may have gone too far and lost control.
> 
> The problem that Victoria is, and other cities are, facing is less a police problem but more a mental health services problem.
> 
> 🍻


----------



## OldSolduer

OldSolduer said:


> One thing I can tell you:
> 
> If society doesn’t invest in a proper mental health care system including secure facilities you end up with a plethora of crazies on the street and in your jails.


Further to this (don't interrupt me - I am having a very good crayon day) there is a huge ripple effect with mental health - the center being the patient, the next ring immediate family (who often care for their relative) , extended family etc.

Adding - the cost to society as a result of poor mental health care is astronomical, and costs us lives that could have been saved.


----------



## medicineman

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> That was AWESOME!!


The series is really good actually.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Victoria: Number One in Canada yet again. Yay!

B.C. has the longest walk-in clinic wait times in Canada: Medimap​The average 58-minute wait was more than double the national average of 25 minutes, and early data on 2022 shows it's getting worse

“Six of the top 10 cities with the longest average wait times across Canada were located in British Columbia,” said Medimap spokesman Paul Clarke in an email. Victoria recorded the longest, at 161 minutes or just over 2.5 hours. “Kelowna, White Rock, North Vancouver and Vancouver also recorded average wait times that were 60 minutes or longer,” he said.









						B.C. has the longest walk-in clinic wait times in Canada: Medimap
					

The average 58-minute wait was more than double the national average of 25 minutes, and early data on 2022 shows it's getting worse




					vancouversun.com


----------



## Quirky

If Covid didn’t kill the sick, not getting adequate care will. Lockdowns or not, hospitals got overwhelmed either way.


----------



## CBH99

daftandbarmy said:


> Victoria: Number One in Canada yet again. Yay!
> 
> B.C. has the longest walk-in clinic wait times in Canada: Medimap​The average 58-minute wait was more than double the national average of 25 minutes, and early data on 2022 shows it's getting worse
> 
> “Six of the top 10 cities with the longest average wait times across Canada were located in British Columbia,” said Medimap spokesman Paul Clarke in an email. Victoria recorded the longest, at 161 minutes or just over 2.5 hours. “Kelowna, White Rock, North Vancouver and Vancouver also recorded average wait times that were 60 minutes or longer,” he said.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B.C. has the longest walk-in clinic wait times in Canada: Medimap
> 
> 
> The average 58-minute wait was more than double the national average of 25 minutes, and early data on 2022 shows it's getting worse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouversun.com


Why, though?

Why are wait times in Victoria substantially longer than elsewhere?

Is it a lack of doctors or clinics? 

More patients per capita due to age? 

Mismanaged resources, aka poor management at the top?


----------



## medicineman

CBH99 said:


> Why, though?
> 
> Why are wait times in Victoria substantially longer than elsewhere?
> 
> Is it a lack of doctors or clinics?
> 
> More patients per capita due to age?
> 
> Mismanaged resources, aka poor management at the top?


People are using them for primary care reasons most likely - often means that if they've just lost a family doc, they have a shopping list of problems, or they might be there for driver/employment medicals, which take substantially longer if you don't know the person or have records on them, a lack of physicians/clincis,  IIRC correctly, in BC there's a cap on people you can see in a given time frame in the walk ins, so no incentive to move faster since people would be working for free. Add to that the amount of documentation required for people you don't know that one has to do and send to the patient's family doc (if they have one) or consultant(s) if needed. In an ED, for a simple problem, I have about 5-10 minutes of documentation I have to do...ordering tests that weren't done on arrival, consultatnts to page/text and do a note for, referrals to other facilities, doing a procedure (and documenting that), etc takes up more time I'm not seeing people. In a walk-in, you're responsible for tests you order and have to follow up on them, dictate or hand bomb letters of referral or back to family doc saying "Hey, just saw you patient, they need this and that done please follow up, etc".  Takes time...some of it non-billable.  Take your pick.


----------



## OldSolduer

Winnipeg is in a similar situation. Stabbings all over and the transit workers are alerting the city that crime is rampant.

And a sprained ankle demands an ER visit.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

medicineman said:


> The series is really good actually.


Will have to track it down.


----------



## daftandbarmy

medicineman said:


> People are using them for primary care reasons most likely - often means that if they've just lost a family doc, they have a shopping list of problems, or they might be there for driver/employment medicals, which take substantially longer if you don't know the person or have records on them, a lack of physicians/clincis,  IIRC correctly, in BC there's a cap on people you can see in a given time frame in the walk ins, so no incentive to move faster since people would be working for free. Add to that the amount of documentation required for people you don't know that one has to do and send to the patient's family doc (if they have one) or consultant(s) if needed. In an ED, for a simple problem, I have about 5-10 minutes of documentation I have to do...ordering tests that weren't done on arrival, consultatnts to page/text and do a note for, referrals to other facilities, doing a procedure (and documenting that), etc takes up more time I'm not seeing people. In a walk-in, you're responsible for tests you order and have to follow up on them, dictate or hand bomb letters of referral or back to family doc saying "Hey, just saw you patient, they need this and that done please follow up, etc".  Takes time...some of it non-billable.  Take your pick.



It's mainly a lack of doctors, apparently.

We know a few doctors who can't make any money here and are pretty much treated like sheisse by the Vancouver Island Health Authority.

One doctor is working in Alberta and hugely enjoys it. She comes back to visit her familiy every couple of months or so. Good money, enough support, grateful customers, supportive administration.









						‘Not entirely shocked’: Victoria's walk-in clinic wait times longest in Canada (REPORT)
					

As a doctor shortage plagues southern Vancouver Island, it may be no surprise that Victoria is seeing the longest walk-in clinic wait times in Canada.




					www.victoriabuzz.com


----------



## Jarnhamar

daftandbarmy said:


> It's mainly a lack of doctors, apparently.
> 
> We know a few doctors who can't make any money here and are pretty much treated like sheisse by the Vancouver Island Health Authority.
> 
> One doctor is working in High Level Alberta and hugely enjoys it. She comes back to visit her familiy every couple of months or so. Good money, enough support, grateful customers, supportive administration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Not entirely shocked’: Victoria's walk-in clinic wait times longest in Canada (REPORT)
> 
> 
> As a doctor shortage plagues southern Vancouver Island, it may be no surprise that Victoria is seeing the longest walk-in clinic wait times in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.victoriabuzz.com



I'm not sure how accurate those wait times are. Or maybe I'm reading that study wrong.

I know of a walk-in clinic in a medium sized city. It opens at 9am and fills up to the point where they stop taking people at 10am. If you're not in line very early (i.e 830), you could be waiting until 2-230pm before seeing a doctor.

Mind you it's better than going to the ER which can be a 12+ hour wait to see a doctor.


----------



## The Bread Guy

OldSolduer said:


> One thing I can tell you:
> 
> If society doesn’t invest in a proper mental health care system including secure facilities you end up with a plethora of crazies on the street and in your jails.


Heard that from a jail superintendent +30 years ago as well - I guess nobody's listening


----------



## GK .Dundas

The Bread Guy said:


> Heard that from a jail superintendent +30 years ago as well - I guess nobody's listening


I hear that from the various Corrections Officers who are assigned to our various units. I guess some things never change.


----------



## mariomike

OldSolduer said:


> If society doesn’t invest in a proper mental health care system including secure facilities you end up with a plethora of crazies on the street and in your jails.



Saw this from B.C. nine years ago,



> A group of B.C. mayors are calling on the provincial government to re-open Coquitlam’s Riverview Hospital for mental health patients.











						Mayors calling for re-opening of Riverview Hospital
					

A group of B.C. mayors are calling on the provincial government to re-open Coquitlam’s Riverview Hospital for mental health patients.



					bc.ctvnews.ca
				




Nothing new about deinstitutionalization.

Toronto experienced similar problems after the partial deinstitutionalization of 999 Queen St., and the closure of 3131 Lakeshore Psych.

Psychiatric attendants used to make sure mental patients got up every morning, went to bed at night, took showers and ate decently. They had group therapy, workshops, bingos, dances, movies and sports to keep them busy.

Their quality of life was better, in my opinion, than that of many psychiatric patients who are living in the community today. 

The 9-1-1 system is frequently called to help them. All we could do was deliver them to an ER.


----------



## OldSolduer

GK .Dundas said:


> I hear that from the various Corrections Officers who are assigned to our various units. I guess some things never change.


Because we are stoopid gards who have no idea about mental health etc that is how the upper tiers in government see us. 
Some of our staff have degrees in Justice, psychology among others.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> Saw this from B.C. nine years ago,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayors calling for re-opening of Riverview Hospital
> 
> 
> A group of B.C. mayors are calling on the provincial government to re-open Coquitlam’s Riverview Hospital for mental health patients.
> 
> 
> 
> bc.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing new about deinstitutionalization.
> 
> Toronto experienced similar problems after the partial deinstitutionalization of 999 Queen St., and the closure of 3131 Lakeshore Psych.
> 
> Psychiatric attendants used to make sure mental patients got up every morning, went to bed at night, took showers and ate decently. They had group therapy, workshops, bingos, dances, movies and sports to keep them busy.
> 
> Their quality of life was better, in my opinion, than that of many psychiatric patients who are living in the community today.
> 
> The 9-1-1 system is frequently called to help them. All we could do was deliver them to an ER.


It happened all over Ontario after the Great Deinstitutionization of the 1990s, particularly impacting the communities hosting the former institutions.  Adequate funding for the promised 'home and community supports' never materialized.  Layer than onto the fentanyl/oxy/drug du jour problem and some communities are reeling.

The stated reasons about getting patients out of these institutions and integrated back into the community wasn't totally wrong, but the real reason was for the government to save money.


----------



## mariomike

OldSolduer said:


> Because we are stoopid gards who have no idea about mental health etc that is how the upper tiers in government see us.



Worked the Don part-time. Enjoyed the job. 



lenaitch said:


> It happened all over Ontario after the Great Deinstitutionization of the 1990s, particularly impacting the communities hosting the former institutions.  Adequate funding for the promised 'home and community supports' never materialized.  Layer than onto the fentanyl/oxy/drug du jour problem and some communities are reeling.
> 
> The stated reasons about getting patients out of these institutions and integrated back into the community wasn't totally wrong, but the real reason was for the government to save money.



Hope they never deinstitutionalize Penetang. What a spooky place that was!


----------



## Good2Golf

mariomike said:


> Hope they never deinstitutionalize Penetang. What a spooky place that was!


Used to weekend up in Victoria Harbour with a high school buddy, and you could hear them (at the institution) hollering across the water at night. ..sounded like a Friday 13 movie sound track… 😱


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:


> It's mainly a lack of doctors, apparently.
> 
> We know a few doctors who can't make any money here and are pretty much treated like sheisse by the Vancouver Island Health Authority.
> though I'
> One doctor is working in Alberta and hugely enjoys it. She comes back to visit her familiy every couple of months or so. Good money, enough support, grateful customers, supportive administration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Not entirely shocked’: Victoria's walk-in clinic wait times longest in Canada (REPORT)
> 
> 
> As a doctor shortage plagues southern Vancouver Island, it may be no surprise that Victoria is seeing the longest walk-in clinic wait times in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.victoriabuzz.com


My doc this morning is a refugee from the Lower Mainland - couldn't get a family med job there as the BC gov't seems to have a hard on against family MD's lately.  Frig, we've been trying to get PA's into BC for as long as I've been one -at least 14 years - gov't pats on the head, with one hand and jams a knife in with the other...and I don't see anything happening anytime soon, as they've always been a bit (read a lot) insular about having things like this that they can't/won't make at home their own way - witness their paramedic program's lack of reciprocity with other provinces up until fairly recently.  Given the population, I don't understand why they can't/won't support a second medical school there - there are two in AB - other than they don't want to pay for what they've already got...

I'm not moving back any time soon.


----------



## Good2Golf

medicineman said:


> My doc this morning is a refugee from the Lower Mainland - couldn't get a family med job there as the BC gov't seems to have a hard on against family MD's lately.  Frig, we've been trying to get PA's into BC for as long as I've been one -at least 14 years - gov't pats on the head, with one hand and jams a knife in with the other...and I don't see anything happening anytime soon, as they've always been a bit (read a lot) insular about having things like this that they can't/won't make at home their own way - witness their paramedic program's lack of reciprocity with other provinces up until fairly recently.  Given the population, I don't understand why they can't/won't support a second medical school there - there are two in AB - other than they don't want to pay for what they've already got...
> 
> I'm not moving back any time soon.


A substantial part of why my wife (Victoria born) and I put our ‘retire back to her home’ in hold for the foreseeable future…far more certain to stay put in Eastern Ontario surrounded by several ver well-equipped regional hospitals and good health services and short specialist wait times, and a slightly longer than past (maybe 3-4 weeks) wintering somewhere warm that’ll take the edge off the depth of winter.  A family friend having to buy his own bandages and surgery soap, etc. prior to colon cancer surgery was an eye-opener for us!!


----------



## dapaterson

My family Dr (Ontario) got fed up with running a practice, so downsized he patient list and joined a larger practice, giving her better work life balance and the ability to teach.

Unfortunately, since I am relatively young and have zero health conditions, I was downsized.  Four years and counting of looking for a new primary health care provider.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good2Golf said:


> A substantial part of why my wife (Victoria born) and I put our ‘retire back to her home’ in hold for the foreseeable future…far more certain to stay put in Eastern Ontario surrounded by several ver well-equipped regional hospitals and good health services and short specialist wait times, and a slightly longer than past (maybe 3-4 weeks) wintering somewhere warm that’ll take the edge off the depth of winter.  A family friend having to buy his own bandages and surgery soap, etc. prior to colon cancer surgery was an eye-opener for us!!



BC lost control of the Health Sector under the Liberal Government when they created the Health Authorities/ Business Units under a quasi private sector system, and delegated away alot of the service delivery decision making from the centre.

My guess is that the governance structure might have to change to address the lack of control the Health Ministry has over service delivery.


----------



## dapaterson

Additional layers to blame before you hit the Minister are a feature, not a bug.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Curious that BC is antagonistic towards family physicians, because it really needs more of them, the people know this, and the government knows this and is currently engaged (with the other provinces) in the usual game of badgering the federal government to tax Canadians (unpopular) and pass along health care money to provincial governments for spending (popular).



> Given the population, I don't understand why they can't/won't support a second medical school there - there are two in AB - other than they don't want to pay for what they've already got...



With the distributed model they have (UBC working with interior and island universities), the overhead of a second school might make less sense than expanding the existing one.


----------



## brihard

We’re super lucky. Got a good family doc when we moved out here- she’s approximately my age, been a doc since 2013 or so. I’m super easy as a patient, but sheMs been amazing with my wife... particularly in giving her the time to really listen. She’s freshly back to work after two kids in quick succession, so we’re hoping we’ll have her for another twenty years or so.

Flip side to that, my mom and stepdad, him with bad Leukemia, have no family doctor. Almost zero chance of getting one. But for the leukemia he’d likely be getting no meaningful care at all. And a great many people have similarly no access to regular care- I see it on my neighborhood Facebook group all the time, people looking for family clinics taking patients.

My cousin finished residency not too long ago. From some really candid conversation, the system by which we create doctors is brutal; we have resident in clinical settings working shifts 24 hours long, hopefully napping for a couple hours during that time and hoping they don’t crash the car on the way home. And that’s a conscious part of the resourcing model for hospital ERs.

The costs of medical school are horrendous, dissuading many from ever getting into the profession. Family physicians running a clinic eat the bulk of the overhead, which pushes more of them away from family medicine and into hospitals where they practice without paying for the infrastructure.

There needs to be a holistic look, combining both federal and provincial levels, into how Canada generates intake into the healthcare field, and how the practitioners are supported and sustained.


----------



## mariomike

This article from 2007 predicted the mess we are in now.

Canada's looming acute-care crisis​The health-care system is about to embrace the baby-boom generation and a recent symposium at Queen's University forecast that, at best, the results will be problematic. At worst, our system may implode.​








						Canada's looming acute-care crisis
					

T he health-care system is about to embrace the baby-boom generation and a recent symposium at Queen's University forecast that, at best, the results will be problematic. At worst, our system may implode.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The guy looking after our daughter for her diabetes, was a spinal surgeon in India and is excellent to deal with. They can't call him "Doctor" as he is not certified here, we call him doctor because he does excellent work for us. The have about 6 "Case Managers" as they call these trained doctors. The medical profession is very much about guarding the sandbox for people trained in the "right schools".


----------



## Furniture

brihard said:


> We’re super lucky. Got a good family doc when we moved out here- she’s approximately my age, been a doc since 2013 or so. I’m super easy as a patient, but sheMs been amazing with my wife...- particularly in giving her the time to really listen. She’s freshly back to work after two kids in quick succession, so we’re hoping we’ll have her for another twenty years or so.
> 
> Flip side to that, my mom and stepdad, him with bad Leukemia, have no family doctor. Almost zero chance of getting one. But for the leukemia he’d likely be getting no meaningful care at all. And a great many people have similarly no access to regular care- I see it on my neighborhood Facebook group all the time, people looking for family clinics taking patients.
> 
> My cousin finished residency not too long ago. From some really candid conversation, the system by which we create doctors is brutal; we have resident in clinical settings working shifts 24 hours long, hopefully napping for a couple hours during that time and hoping they don’t crash the car on the way home. And that’s a conscious part of the resourcing model for hospital ERs.
> 
> The costs of medical school are horrendous, dissuading many from ever getting into the profession. Family physicians running a clinic eat the bulk of the overhead, which pushes more of them away from family medicine and into hospitals where they practice without paying for the infrastructure.
> 
> There needs to be a holistic look, combining both federal and provincial levels, into how Canada generates intake into the healthcare field, and how the practitioners are supported and sustained.


I'm not as intimately linked to the general Canadian healthcare system as you are(still CAF, and mostly healthy), but what I have learned makes my blood boil. 

The working conditions we subject new Drs. and nurses to is completely broken. On one had the system screams that they have no nurses, and on the other, ensures all new nurses/Drs. have the crap shifts, and no stability.... Who wants to spend years, and tens(hundreds) of thousands of dollars to be treated poorly?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Furniture said:


> I'm not as intimately linked to the general Canadian healthcare system as you are(still CAF, and mostly healthy), but what I have learned makes my blood boil.
> 
> The working conditions we subject new Drs. and nurses to is completely broken. On one had the system screams that they have no nurses, and on the other, ensures all new nurses/Drs. have the crap shifts, and no stability....* Who wants to spend years, and tens(hundreds) of thousands of dollars to be treated poorly?*



CAF GOFOs?


----------



## Furniture

daftandbarmy said:


> CAF GOFOs?


If being held to the standard of Ptes is too much for them, maybe they can take up nursing?  😁


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Good2Golf said:


> A family friend having to buy his own bandages and surgery soap, etc. prior to colon cancer surgery was an eye-opener for us!!


What!! in BC??


----------



## Eaglelord17

Colin Parkinson said:


> The guy looking after our daughter for her diabetes, was a spinal surgeon in India and is excellent to deal with. They can't call him "Doctor" as he is not certified here, we call him doctor because he does excellent work for us. The have about 6 "Case Managers" as they call these trained doctors. The medical profession is very much about guarding the sandbox for people trained in the "right schools".


Back in the early 2000s a family member of mine was going to Ryerson for health inspecting and had a former brain surgeon from Russia in the course. The reason being is they refused to let them practice medicine in Canada so health inspecting was the quickest and easiest thing for them to become qualified in. A lot of the health care problems are self inflicted. Ontario for example cut med school positions to save on costs in the 90s. It did save them on costs at that moment, but it seriously screwed us long term. 

Not a huge advocate of private healthcare, but it seems to me like we took over the private system, and then proceeded not to make any actual gains in it, rather just sustaining what we had despite a growing and aging population. It would be very interesting if someone was to take a look at what our actual capabilities were in the late 70s to now and see if the public model really did us any favours or not.


----------



## Good2Golf

Retired AF Guy said:


> What!! in BC??


Yup.  He’s in Saanich; surgery was at Jubilee.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> Hope they never deinstitutionalize Penetang. What a spooky place that was!


The centre is still there.  The old scary Oak Ridge building (which was actually built in the 1930s - maybe they chose the scary Victorian style for effect). They still have the 'forensics unit' but it's in a newer building.  The accused in my first homicide back in 1979 was found 'not guilty by reason of insanity' back when that was a thing.  I periodically checked (they were pretty strong on privacy) but he was still there in the late '90s.  A friend of ours used to sit on the Ontario Review Board which reviews persons who are institutionalized by the court ('at the Lieutenant Governor's Pleasure' as they used to say).

*****

As a post-retirement gig I used to conduct background investigations for gaming licencing.  I lost track of the number of foreign doctors and other health care professionals (along with other professions) who were lining up for a job as a casino dealer.  I have a number of doctors in my extended family (not my side of the family - it shows) and two were educated in a very-much first world country overseas, yet were still considered foreign trained and had to jump through a bunch of additional (one did her residency in the US for chrissake).  I get that there is a difference between Harvard and U Mogadishu, and it strikes me as making sense to create a list of 'acceptable' foreign medical schools that would allow a more seamless acceptance.

As far as crappy shifts, I am convinced that the practice of residency, much like articling in the law profession, is partly because 'they' had to do it (and it's a pool of eager, pliable and cheap labour).


----------



## Brad Sallows

None of this gets fixed unless Canadian voters convince Canadian politicians that it is the only election issue.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brad Sallows said:


> None of this gets fixed unless Canadian voters convince Canadian politicians that it is the only election issue.



Coincidentally, this crew met in Victoria last month to try to make that happen:

Premiers gather in Victoria to present united demand for more health-care cash​Premiers are asking Ottawa to increase its share of health-care funding from 22 to 35 per cent​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/premiers-first-ministers-meeting-healthcare-1.6515070


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brad Sallows said:


> None of this gets fixed unless Canadian voters convince Canadian politicians that it is the only election issue.


... and when people in big cities like Toronto, Montreal etc. can't get the care they want.


daftandbarmy said:


> Coincidentally, this crew met in Victoria last month to try to make that happen:
> 
> Premiers gather in Victoria to present united demand for more health-care cash​Premiers are asking Ottawa to increase its share of health-care funding from 22 to 35 per cent​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/premiers-first-ministers-meeting-healthcare-1.6515070


We'll see what happens.  I remember when Team Blue was in Ottawa, and didn't want to meet with Premiers, other Team Blue types would say, "all they're doing is whining, anyway" - even if some of the Premiers asking for more health money then were also Team Blue.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Peter sends it....

Incentives for complex care keep other patients from finding physicians: doctor​ 
Dr. Peter Vizsolyi says the problem is not with physicians — to whom he’s grateful for taking some of his patients — “it’s the system.”









						Incentives for complex care keep other patients from finding physicians: doctor
					

Dr. Peter Vizsolyi says the problem is not with physicians — to whom he’s grateful for taking some of his patients — “it’s the system.”




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Brad Sallows

Premiers gather in Victoria to present united demand for more health-care cash​
Yeah, noted that a couple days ago or whenever it was.  Hence my comment, wherever it was, about provinces wanting the feds to take the political hit for taxes and allow the provinces to harvest the political approval for more spending.  My response would be that the 2 points taken off the GST years ago are still there to be taken up by any province that wants the money.



> I remember when Team Blue was in Ottawa, and didn't want to meet with Premiers



That was deliberate, but it wasn't that they didn't want to meet with Premiers.  Harper simply wouldn't submit to the collective bullying shtick, which was (is) just a forum for a chorus of whinging.  He would meet one-on-one, though.  The complaint that he wouldn't meet holds no water.  And keep in mind that the Harper government retained, and extended, Paul Martin's "health care fix for a generation".  Then the opposition and its supportive media tried to portray the termination that Martin's government programmed in as "conservatives cutting health care".  Fuck them all for their bad-faith misrepresentations and water-carrying.


----------



## Skysix

lenaitch said:


> (and it's a pool of eager, pliable and cheap labour)


Bingo


----------



## Skysix

daftandbarmy said:


> Coincidentally, this crew met in Victoria last month to try to make that happen:
> 
> Premiers gather in Victoria to present united demand for more health-care cash​Premiers are asking Ottawa to increase its share of health-care funding from 22 to 35 per cent​
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/premiers-first-ministers-meeting-healthcare-1.6515070


Anyone else remember when it was 50/50 (education also)?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Eaglelord17 said:


> Back in the early 2000s a family member of mine was going to Ryerson for health inspecting and had a former brain surgeon from Russia in the course. The reason being is they refused to let them practice medicine in Canada so health inspecting was the quickest and easiest thing for them to become qualified in. A lot of the health care problems are self inflicted. Ontario for example cut med school positions to save on costs in the 90s. It did save them on costs at that moment, but it seriously screwed us long term.
> 
> Not a huge advocate of private healthcare, but it seems to me like we took over the private system, and then proceeded not to make any actual gains in it, rather just sustaining what we had despite a growing and aging population. It would be very interesting if someone was to take a look at what our actual capabilities were in the late 70s to now and see if the public model really did us any favours or not.


My wife is Malaysian, they have a full public healthcare system and a full private one as well. Plus they do both western and eastern medicine. Nobody blinks an eye if you jump from public to private and then back to public. Somehow a "developing country" is able to manage doing both systems simultaneously, which apparently is beyond what Canada can do. I suspect that for to many people our public healthcare system is the only thing that makes them feel Canadian and they treat it like a religion.


----------



## Booter

I believe, based on nothing, that there is no interest in opening the pipe to making doctors- because then they’d have to be employed. The public wouldn’t stand out of work doctors and that’s expensive. So an extremely nonsensical development system is used. It may not even be on design- it’s just a pleasant bug there is no desire to REALLY address.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin Parkinson said:


> My wife is Malaysian, they have a full public healthcare system and a full private one as well. Plus they do both western and eastern medicine. Nobody blinks an eye if you jump from public to private and then back to public. Somehow a "developing country" is able to manage doing both systems simultaneously, which apparently is beyond what Canada can do. I suspect that for to many people our public healthcare system is the only thing that makes them feel Canadian and they treat it like a religion.



And don't get me started on their LNG infrastructure (which we don't have)


----------



## lenaitch

Booter said:


> I believe, based on nothing, that there is no interest in opening the pipe to making doctors- because then they’d have to be employed. The public wouldn’t stand out of work doctors and that’s expensive. So an extremely nonsensical development system is used. It may not even be on design- it’s just a pleasant bug there is no desire to REALLY address.


I'm more inclined the think that the provinces are reluctant to add more billing numbers.  I don't think finding gainful employment will be a problem for doctors and an out-of-work doctor (has there ever been such a thing?) isn't billing the system. I couldn't find and kind of regional breakdown of doctor shortages for Ontario to know whether urban areas fare any better or worse than rural/remote areas.  At least in a urban or near urban area, the next clinic or ER might be a handful of kilometers away; in northern Ontario, it can be measured in the hundreds.

This G&M article tells a familiar tale to our experience with our family doctor.  I can't remember the last time the office actually picked up the phone.









						Opinion: Nearly 15 per cent of Canadians don’t have a family doctor, but the solution isn’t hiring more
					

A rise in the number of doctors in Canada has not necessarily translated into an increase in family-doctor availability




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




Interesting that the author paints Nurse Practitioners as a big part of the solution.  Back in the '70s, I had never heard of such a beast until I started dealing with the federal system servicing FNTs.  I think they provide an outstanding service - we just need more.  The 'team' that our doctor is connected to has one, but she books up very early in the day.  I think there is a lot of turf protecting that is preventing greater expansion of NPs.

It seems we are way off topic here.


----------



## FSTO

lenaitch said:


> I think there is a lot of turf protecting that is preventing greater expansion of NPs.


No shit. Protecting turf is the bane of every organization.


----------



## Brad Sallows

> I believe, based on nothing



Your belief isn't based on nothing.  A while back the "doctor pipeline" was crimped because the people responsible for measuring such things forecasted that we would soon have underemployed doctors.  Either no-one kept measuring and adjusting, or they forgot to turn the pipeline back on, or they'd rather spend money on exciting new things like saving the world instead of doing maintenance mode work on boring old social programs from decades ago.



> The public wouldn’t stand out of work doctors



Well, we got them anyways - all the doctors whose training didn't make them fit to practice in Canada.


----------



## medicineman

Colin Parkinson said:


> The guy looking after our daughter for her diabetes, was a spinal surgeon in India and is excellent to deal with. They can't call him "Doctor" as he is not certified here, we call him doctor because he does excellent work for us. The have about 6 "Case Managers" as they call these trained doctors. The medical profession is very much about guarding the sandbox for people trained in the "right schools".


We have similar folks here in Manitoba called "Clinical Assistants" - they're all Foreign Medical Grads, many of whom are attempting to get lincensure in Canada.  They're legally recognized (as are Physician Assistantslike myself and a few others here) as a Regulated Health Profession under The Act and the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba.  They work largely in hospitals doing in patient and sub-specialty patient care and have a codified scope of practice.  

Small rant here...Many of you may/may not know, but my first job out of the CAF was family medicine in a small town in Manitoba that I did for about 3 years - my supervising doc was 35km away, we did stuff by phone/text and electronic chart review.  They'd do in person stuff for me for my patients on long term controlled substances I couldn't prescribe or weird stuff I didn't think needed an immediate specialist consultation but could possibly benefit from a second set of eyes/ears for management at our level.  I was largley working just as I did in the CAF if were remoted somewhere.  I also looked after residents in a small PCH attached to the clinic, and I also had some priveliges at the hospital my Supervising doc was attached to, as that's where my patients would likely be admitted to and I worked some ED shifts there as well.  I provided fairly comprehensive care - cradle to grave as it were, though I didn't do the delivery to the cradle.  My wait times for appointments were reasonably short - within 2-3 days usually unless I was on holidays for a week - there'd be about 5-7 day catchup period.  I accomodated same days for minor injuries/emergencies - something in the eye, lacerations, etc, even if the day was full.  I often had people coming from places well outside my catchement area due to availability (and I hope general reputation).  I also did house calls for folks, especially older folks ( a large majority of the population) to see if any red flags, check on them if they couldn't get in, etc.  

This was all done on salary...which leads me to things that pissed me off.  I'd see sometimes more patients per day, including daily rounding on my PCH residents, than some of the MD's at a nearby RHA town clinic/hospital did (not affilitated with the other town I worked with), who were also salaried.  Because I wasn't an MD, I never got to benefit from the non-insured services I had to do, both on and off the clock. So things like social assistance and insurance paperwork - which are quite time consuming - driver medicals, even the occasional medical clearance for CAF enrollment, etc where an MD get a cheque or cash in hand to do the service,  I'd see a cheque but have to hand it over to the Regional Health Authority, to allegedly go into my clinic's budget.  I was enttitled to only 1 half day every two weeks for administration - so to do all this stuff which often added up to significantly more than 4 hours work by then, so it either had to be done after hours (ergo unpaid) or during an appointment slot which would have to be arranged as a full hour for some of these complex forms...which takes away up to 45 minutes of other appointment slots that day.  Also, waiting too long to do those forms could serioiusly affect someone's life - so sooner done and off the better.  As a for instance- medicals for a professional driver's permit were charged at a rate of $50 at our clinic...the first 6-9 months I was working there, I'd estimate I did about $15k worth of driver medicals, as the average going rate was $85-150 in private or RHA clinics (the MD's doing the deed got the money and charged ad lib)...do the math.  I was supposed to charge for sick notes, but stuck it to the man by not doing that - if I thought the patient needed one, I gave it to them, however, I wouldn't if they came in demanding one, particularly if was for time prior to me seeing them.  I justified it by if a person was paying me for the note, they'd tend to expect it would be for what they wanted, not what they actually needed.  I did start sending employers invoices for BS notes though.

Other things - many of you may know of my general disdain for health care administrators.  Don't get me wrong, worked for some great ones, but they're largely the minority. I feel the ratio of admins to operators is completely out of proportion to what it should be. My scheduling regarding admin and expected daily patient load was already mentioned.  I found that there was an unreasonable amount of micromanaging by people not providing care to those doing it in the primary care side of things, and similar BS I'd seen in the CAF regarding everyone paying for one moron's fuckup.  For example, I wasn't allowed to keep drug samples in my clinic because "it might affect your prescribing habits to one company or other" - BS, I worked off a codified formulary, so no it didn't.  I was literally told by my "manager" that "People should have no problems affording their medications"...this coming from someone with a 6 digit salary and high end benefit package.  I asked for dictation software for my electronic medical record - there was one available.  However, the Region decreed that, because it was a shared/linked EMR, if one person had it, everyone had to be asked if they wanted it and had to obtain the number of licenses required...when they did, they didn't like how many people said yes because they didn't want to pay for the licenses.  My first year there saw a running battle regarding my paid leave - I was told I'd be earning it from day one...then they said I couldn't take any of it for 10 months, "because the computer program won't let you".  I told my boss that was BS -I just left a job with 25 paid days + stats for less time off that I was actually earning but couldn't take, despite my family being 3 provinces away.  I talked to the Geek i/c of said computer program - I was told categorically that "the program doesn't allow you to take leave until the next leave year starts".  My late dad programmed computers when 1K memory took up a skyscraper of magenetic tape...when I countered "Computers only do what you tell them to do, so you're either too dumb to manipulate the program, too lazy to do it, or you've been ordered not to.  Which is it?"  Crickets.  "You answered my question"...they managed to sort things out surprisinly, eventually.

There are other things that were embuggerances, but many of these are part and parcel with family practice in many parts of the country...hope some of this helps.  Thanks for listening too.


----------



## Good2Golf

MM, an enlightening read, but sad that you and I’m assuming others like you are treated thusly (like crap) by the system(s)… 😔


----------



## medicineman

Good2Golf said:


> MM, an enlightening read, but sad that you and I’m assuming others like you are treated thusly (like crap) by the system(s)… 😔


Irony is I'm seriously looking at going back to either full time FM or a hybrid of FM/acute care stuff...still waiting to flesh some details of that out.  There is a specialty position at HSC that has been up for sale for several weeks I might consider as well that's straight days. Today at work was a perfect example of why - I want to say there were 39 people in the waiting room, all rooms full, >50% of those awaiting admission to a Low Acuity Unit at another facility or for an actual acute care bed in our hospital.  I think the easiest thing I got to do was see someone at triage (no rooms available) and called the surgeon on call to directly admit them based on their presenting issue needing a body part out.  Another easy one was straight forward neeed IV antibiotic therapy and follow up.  I had someone who would have benefited from a proper procedural sedation to get something out of them that was being difficult, but had to settle for a really uncomfortable, but reasonably good local anaesthetic and a sniff of morphine...as there were no monitored beds around to snow them out in.  Had someone I needed to get into a room for an intimate exam I had to wait about 3 hours for - had to manage the problem in an internal waiting room while waiting for that to free up.  The one nurse in our pod was running around like headless RCR bait because of admitted patients and all the extra ones we were trying to treat and fire through...I'm pretty sure she got a break, but am actually unsure...and I didn't stop to pee until 8 hours into a 10 hour shift.  It took me from 0700 when I started til about 1530 to finish my second cup of coffee of the day...and only got about half a litre of water into me and a protein bar.  My doc, who's pretty efficient, was having issues seeing and treating people too.   Bit of a demoralizing day overall.


----------



## Good2Golf

MM, you’re a super smart and capable guy…do what’s best for YOU and the MISSUS!


----------



## ModlrMike

I feel your pain... every day.


----------



## medicineman

ModlrMike said:


> I feel your pain... every day.


I know Man.


----------



## CBH99

So I know nothing about the internal grinding of the health care system and how/why the system works the way it does.  

I do have some limited experience working in EMS prior to being hired onto my current job, but even that can be its own kettle of fish in some ways.   

______

But just last week, I was actually shocked at how inefficient our system is, whether intentional or not.  

The guy who works the night shift at the A&W around the bend & I were chatting while I was waiting for my meal.  I had actually seen him pull up to A&W earlier that evening, and I watched him walk in wearing scrubs.  

So I casually mentioned that, and asked him about it.  Long story short, he’s a trained MD of 11 years - who worked at India’s largest cancer hospital, in Mumbai.

His wife was a nurse there.  


In order to be a nurse here, she had to pay right around $800 for our ‘provincial association of whatever’ to contact that hospital in Mumbai to verify she had in-fact been employed there and in what capacity.  

_Official wait times for this to happen were approx 8 months_.


______


Here we have a system that on the one hand is screaming for nurses, but on the other deliberately keeps qualified people from being employed as such.  

$800 out of pocket & the better part of a year, just for someone to make a few calls or send an email to verify prior employment?  FFS…

Until stupid people are no longer allowed to be in charge of things, we will continue to be the laggard that we’ve become in many respects.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

I would sometimes cynically observe that there are professional organizations that have no incentive to actually increase their own membership…


----------



## medicineman

CBH99 said:


> So I know nothing about the internal grinding of the health care system and how/why the system works the way it does.
> 
> I do have some limited experience working in EMS prior to being hired onto my current job, but even that can be its own kettle of fish in some ways.
> 
> ______
> 
> But just last week, I was actually shocked at how inefficient our system is, whether intentional or not.
> 
> The guy who works the night shift at the A&W around the bend & I were chatting while I was waiting for my meal.  I had actually seen him pull up to A&W earlier that evening, and I watched him walk in wearing scrubs.
> 
> So I casually mentioned that, and asked him about it.  Long story short, he’s a trained MD of 11 years - who worked at India’s largest cancer hospital, in Mumbai.
> 
> His wife was a nurse there.
> 
> 
> In order to be a nurse here, she had to pay right around $800 for our ‘provincial association of whatever’ to contact that hospital in Mumbai to verify she had in-fact been employed there and in what capacity.
> 
> _Official wait times for this to happen were approx 8 months_.
> 
> 
> ______
> 
> 
> Here we have a system that on the one hand is screaming for nurses, but on the other deliberately keeps qualified people from being employed as such.
> 
> $800 out of pocket & the better part of a year, just for someone to make a few calls or send an email to verify prior employment?  FFS…
> 
> Until stupid people are no longer allowed to be in charge of things, we will continue to be the laggard that we’ve become in many respects.


While I understand the frustration, obviously there needs to be good background investigations done, which get harder if the educational documents aren't in English or French.  There are folks out there like this creature: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...ed-at-vancouver-hospital-for-a-year-1.6262965.

Having said that, if the Colleges/Ministries of Health really want to get people in, they will - like the Fillipino RN recruiting campaign in Manitoba not long before I started work out here.  Alot of it comes down to being deliberately insular to protect people and/or either get money or save money - it's cheaper to pay for a resident than an attending, training facilities and trainers lose money if people bypass, etc, though in this case, not enough RN's were being pipelined here AND no incentive for those trained here to stay.  The issue is multifactorial unfortunately.


----------



## CBH99

medicineman said:


> While I understand the frustration, obviously there needs to be good background investigations done, which get harder if the educational documents aren't in English or French.  There are folks out there like this creature: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...ed-at-vancouver-hospital-for-a-year-1.6262965.
> 
> Having said that, if the Colleges/Ministries of Health really want to get people in, they will - like the Fillipino RN recruiting campaign in Manitoba not long before I started work out here.  Alot of it comes down to being deliberately insular to protect people and/or either get money or save money - it's cheaper to pay for a resident than an attending, training facilities and trainers lose money if people bypass, etc, though in this case, not enough RN's were being pipelined here AND no incentive for those trained here to stay.  The issue is multifactorial unfortunately.


After reading your last few above posts, but obviously getting a sense of what kind of person you are just by all of us interacting on this forum over the years…

I am especially and genuinely curious…


In your experience, what are some solutions to make our system work much more harmoniously?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

CBH99 said:


> So I know nothing about the internal grinding of the health care system and how/why the system works the way it does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ______
> 
> 
> Here we have a system that on the one hand is screaming for nurses, but on the other deliberately keeps qualified people from being employed as such.
> 
> $800 out of pocket & the better part of a year, just for someone to make a few calls or send an email to verify prior employment?  FFS…
> 
> Until stupid people are no longer allowed to be in charge of things, we will continue to be the laggard that we’ve become in many respects.


I had French Canadian girlfriend who was a teacher, met her doing a mining job in Flin Flon. She came out to BC to live with me, we went to the BC teachers association, she wanted to be certified here and she had the papers for her teaching degree and special needs degree from the University of Montreal.  I was with her when she was interviewed and they were willing to recognize the teaching degree but not the Special Needs degree. I asked them why not and they said "We aren't sure of the syllabus" I told them to pick up the phone and call them (1980's). Lazy lying F**Ks, they just didn't want teachers from elsewhere coming in and taking "their jobs".


----------



## medicineman

CBH99 said:


> After reading your last few above posts, but obviously getting a sense of what kind of person you are just by all of us interacting on this forum over the years…
> 
> I am especially and genuinely curious…
> 
> 
> In your experience, what are some solutions to make our system work much more harmoniously?


Succinctly, if we want to keep a fully public system like we have, the provinces and the feds need to come together, take control of and tap all available resources, devise a national/portable licensing system, decrease amount of layers of admin to increase operator numbers, including I think decreasing RHA's, give graduates of Canadian training programs little choice in where their first practice locations are, since Canadian medical and nursing schools are largely in universities with public funding, and taking some control of the licensing for foreign trained professionals from the regulatory colleges - after all, they pay the people, not the colleges.  We also need better health literacy training in schools from an early age, which I think helps people not show up for things they should be able to handle themselves or demanding unnecessary/unwarranted treatments (antibiotics for a cold as a big for instance).  A hybrid system is ok with me - if you make enough money or have a job with good benefits, why not, though I think things like certain surgeries should be centralized in public funded hospitals and done based on priority, not ability to pay - the whole need vs want thing. 




Colin Parkinson said:


> I had French Canadian girlfriend who was a teacher, met her doing a mining job in Flin Flon. She came out to BC to live with me, we went to the BC teachers association, she wanted to be certified here and she had the papers for her teaching degree and special needs degree from the University of Montreal.  I was with her when she was interviewed and they were willing to recognize the teaching degree but not the Special Needs degree. I asked them why not and they said "We aren't sure of the syllabus" I told them to pick up the phone and call them (1980's). Lazy lying F**Ks, they just didn't want teachers from elsewhere coming in and taking "their jobs".



BC is/was the worst - their EMS programs were the most insular in the country.  I had a first aid instructor that had been trained as a critical care paramedic in one of the best programs in North America that when he moved there, had to start as an EMA nothing and work his way up.  This was so bad that other provinces wouldn't recognize BC trainining because they wouldn't recognize their's...an issue when the CAF decided to go with JIBC for the paramedic training of CAF Med Techs.  The lack of recognition caused issues when everyone had to go do maintenance of competency on local ambulances not in BC.  When I heard they'd go with them, I just shook my head as I saw what was coming.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Thanks MM for the granular details of present conditions & possible solutions - very much appreciated!!!


SeaKingTacco said:


> I would sometimes cynically observe that there are professional organizations that have no incentive to actually increase their own membership…


Sometimes it looks like that, but as others smarter than me have said, it's about protecting turf.

Why do doctors' associations say "more docs/more money for docs" is the answer?  At best, "yeah, more nurse practitioners/PAs/MAs would help, BUT ..."
Why do nursing associations say "more nurses/more money for nurses" is the answer?  At best, "yeah, more PSW's would help, BUT ..."
Why do unions representing front-line-non-doc/nurse workers say "more/more money for" is the answer?  At best, "yeah, more docs and nurses would help, BUT ..."
Sometimes, you get a coalition of groups saying, "all of these above groups should get more money," but I've yet to see (and I stand to be corrected) ALL of these groups standing together with a unified solution short of the very broadest of principles.
This isn't to say any of these groups are evil, per se, and they all have a role to play, and more of each is needed.  That said, don't be surprised at the answer you get re:  breaking down where the help should go when you ask different groups.   

And I've found in general, the group governments (generally provincial) seem most uncomfortable to push too far, too fast is the doctors.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Not just Victoria, but illuminating nonetheless....

*Survey: Majority of respondents have little faith in government to eradicate homelessness in B.C.*

Four in five British Columbians say they believe homelessness has increased in the province over the past three years.

As British Columbians ponder their options in this year’s municipal elections, housing, homelessness and poverty remains the most important issue for 39 per cent of the province’s residents. For the next seven weeks, candidates running for office can expect to be grilled about what they intend to do.

In previous columns, we have looked at the issue of housing on its own. We learned recently that half of British Columbians who rent (50 per cent) express doubts about ultimately becoming homeowners. Back in February, 58 per cent of parents in the province told us they experienced housing-related stress.

This month, Research Co. and Glacier Media focused on the issue of homelessness. The emergence of encampments in some municipalities is bound to have an impact on the impending campaigns, so we wanted to see how British Columbians feel about the problem, possible solutions and whether the eradication of homelessness is achievable in their view.

Our perceptions about this matter are currently general and not local. More than seven in 10 British Columbians (73 per cent) consider the current situation related to homelessness in the province as a major problem. Just over half (52 per cent) say it is a major problem in their municipality and significantly fewer (27 per cent) think homelessness is a major problem in their neighbourhood.

Residents of Vancouver Island (60 per cent) and the Fraser Valley (58 per cent) are more likely to say that homelessness is a major issue in their municipality than their counterparts in Metro Vancouver (51 per cent), northern B.C. (49 per cent) and southern B.C. (40 per cent).

Practically four in five British Columbians (79 per cent) claim that homelessness has increased in the province over the past three years, and more than three in five (63 per cent) feel the same way about the situation in their municipality. More than two in five (42 per cent) say homelessness has increased in their neighbourhood.

British Columbians are not shy about scolding all levels of government on this issue. Only 29 per cent say their municipal government has done a “very good” or “good” job coming up with solutions to deal with homelessness. The rating is lower for the provincial government (27 per cent) and the federal government (20 per cent).


Survey: Majority of respondents have little faith in government to eradicate homelessness in B.C.


----------



## daftandbarmy

This seems like a daily occurrence... and it's always women who are being targeted:

WOMAN UNINJURED AFTER MAN TRIES TO STEAL CAR NEAR DOWNTOWN VICTORIA​

Victoria police say a man has been arrested after he tried to carjack a vehicle while the driver was still inside, and after he reportedly threw rocks at the windows of a government building.

Police say the incident began around 2 p.m. Wednesday when officers were called to a government building in the 900-block of Pandora Avenue for reports of a man throwing rocks at the property.

While officers were heading to the building, police received another report of the same man trying to steal a woman's vehicle.
Police say the man reached through the window of the woman's parked car and tried to take her keys.

The woman was able to hang onto her keys and drove away from the scene, near the intersection of Quadra Street and Mason Street, though not before the man kicked her car several times.

Police say the woman was uninjured in the incident and the man was located back at the same government building officers were initially called to.









						Woman uninjured after man tries to steal car near downtown Victoria
					

Victoria police say a man has been arrested after he tried to carjack a vehicle while the driver was still inside, and after he reportedly threw rocks at the windows of a government building.




					www.iheartradio.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows

> Why do...say



It's just the way the game is played, at least in BC.

1. Advocates: "We need more money to expand capacity of [X]".
2. Provincial government: "Here is some new money for capacity of [X]!"
3. First in line: unions/associations with demands to increase compensation for currently employed members.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Brad Sallows said:


> It's just the way the game is played, at least in BC.
> 
> 1. Advocates: "We need more money to expand capacity of [X]".
> 2. Provincial government: "Here is some new money for capacity of [X]!"
> 3. First in line: unions/associations with demands to increase compensation for currently employed members.


Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science government?


----------



## OldSolduer

Kat Stevens said:


> Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science government?


Bring out yer dead!!!!


----------



## daftandbarmy




----------



## FSTO

I heard that Islett (did I spell it right) is going to run for mayor. If he wins, Victorians will be clamoring for Lisa to come back! LOL!


----------



## SeaKingTacco

FSTO said:


> I heard that Islett (did I spell it right) is going to run for mayor. If he wins, Victorians will be clamoring for Lisa to come back! LOL!


Isitt.

He is favoured by a very vocal minority of Victoria residents. If he were to become mayor, it would drive what little is left of Victoria into the ocean…


----------



## daftandbarmy

FSTO said:


> I heard that Islett (did I spell it right) is going to run for mayor. If he wins, Victorians will be clamoring for Lisa to come back! LOL!



Yes he is, sadly:









						Ben Isitt considers run for mayor's chair in Victoria
					

Coun. Ben Isitt has raised the possibility that after three terms as a councillor he may be ready to run for mayor again.




					www.timescolonist.com
				





And he has his own paradoy account on Twitter, which is awesome:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563672500785258496


----------



## daftandbarmy

At least he's not running for Mayor #countingourblessings

Isitt says he'll run again for Victoria council seat​ 
The controversial Victoria councillor has ruled out a run for mayor









						Isitt says he'll run again for Victoria council seat
					

The controversial Victoria councillor has ruled out a run for mayor




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> At least he's not running for Mayor #countingourblessings
> 
> Isitt says he'll run again for Victoria council seat​
> The controversial Victoria councillor has ruled out a run for mayor



People deserve the government they vote for.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Because: Victoria...


Man not criminally responsible for randomly punching pregnant woman​ 
Brett Joseph Mountford, 33, was in a dream-like state when he attacked two women and assaulted a police officer on March 19, 2021, a judge found

A man who punched two women, one of them pregnant, and spat on a police officer in downtown Victoria last year has been found not criminally responsible because of a severe mental disorder.

Brett Joseph Mountford, 33, was convicted of assault causing bodily harm in connection with the attacks on the two women and assaulting a police officer on March 19, 2021.

Mountford punched a pregnant woman on Pandora Avenue, then, a little while later, struck another woman walking in the area near Johnson and Wharf streets. Later, he spat on the officer who arrested him.

“These assaults on the two women were completely random, entirely unprovoked and very frightening for them,” said Victoria provincial court Judge Christine Lowe.









						Man not criminally responsible for randomly punching pregnant woman
					

Brett Joseph Mountford, 33, was in a dream-like state when he attacked two women and assaulted a police officer on March 19, 2021, a judge found




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

And again.... at what point do we request assistance from Judge Dredd?


Victim stabbed multiple times Thursday night in random attack on Pandora​ 
While Victoria police were dealing with the stabbing, an officer was approached by a man who raised a skateboard and swung it at the officer’s head

An individual sitting on a bench on Pandora Avenue Thursday night was stabbed multiple times in an apparent random attack after being verbally confronted by a stranger.    
 
An individual sitting on a bench on Pandora Avenue Thursday night was stabbed multiple times in an apparent random attack after being verbally confronted by a stranger.

The victim was taken to hospital and appears to have non-life-threatening injuries, police said.

While Victoria police were dealing with the stabbing, a forensic officer was approached by a man who raised a skateboard and swung it at the officer’s head. The officer was able to fend off the attack and told the man he was under arrest.

The man tried to run off but two other nearby officers caught him. He was arrested and taken to police cells, where it was learned that he had an outstanding warrant with another police department.

The man was later released with future court dates.

Police were alerted to the stabbing after they were called just after 9:30 p.m. to a residence in the 1400-block of Harrison Street, which runs off Pandora Avenue parallel to Fernwood Road. They found Victoria firefighters were already there tending to the stabbing victim.









						Victim stabbed multiple times Thursday night in random attack on Pandora
					

While Victoria police were dealing with the stabbing, an officer was approached by a man who raised a skateboard and swung it at the officer’s head




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Weinie

daftandbarmy said:


> And again.... at what point do we request assistance from Judge Dredd?
> 
> 
> Victim stabbed multiple times Thursday night in random attack on Pandora​
> While Victoria police were dealing with the stabbing, an officer was approached by a man who raised a skateboard and swung it at the officer’s head
> 
> An individual sitting on a bench on Pandora Avenue Thursday night was stabbed multiple times in an apparent random attack after being verbally confronted by a stranger.
> 
> An individual sitting on a bench on Pandora Avenue Thursday night was stabbed multiple times in an apparent random attack after being verbally confronted by a stranger.
> 
> The victim was taken to hospital and appears to have non-life-threatening injuries, police said.
> 
> While Victoria police were dealing with the stabbing, a forensic officer was approached by a man who raised a skateboard and swung it at the officer’s head. The officer was able to fend off the attack and told the man he was under arrest.
> 
> The man tried to run off but two other nearby officers caught him. He was arrested and taken to police cells, where it was learned that he had an outstanding warrant with another police department.
> 
> The man was later released with future court dates.
> 
> Police were alerted to the stabbing after they were called just after 9:30 p.m. to a residence in the 1400-block of Harrison Street, which runs off Pandora Avenue parallel to Fernwood Road. They found Victoria firefighters were already there tending to the stabbing victim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Victim stabbed multiple times Thursday night in random attack on Pandora
> 
> 
> While Victoria police were dealing with the stabbing, an officer was approached by a man who raised a skateboard and swung it at the officer’s head
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


Sounds like Victoria is starting to resemble Thunderdome.


----------



## Brad Sallows

There isn't a Judge Dredd.  What happens is vigilantism.  Then the authorities push back.  Then the people choose different elected authorities until they get ones who deal with the problem.  There is no guarantee that the new elected officials won't be more "colourful" than some of the ones previewed in the past few years.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Halloween comes early to these parts....


Blood trail leads police to injured person downtown​ 
Officers were initially called to a bus stop in the 1200-block of Esquimalt Road after a passerby spotted a large pool of blood

 
A trail of blood led officers to a person in “significant medical and mental-health distress” after an hours-long search Saturday, say Victoria police.
The incident began about 8:45 a.m. when officers were called to a bus stop in the 1200-block of Esquimalt Road after a passerby spotted a large pool of blood.

Officers discovered a trail of blood that extended through the neighbourhood and were concerned that someone could be seriously injured.

After checking with hospitals, they began an extensive search, following a blood trail that extended over two kilometres through Esquimalt, Victoria West and the downtown area. Bloody clothing was located at one site.

An officer from the department’s Esquimalt division found surveillance footage showing a person in the 1200-block of Esquimalt Road with an untreated injury that they appeared to be ignoring. The person was seen leaving a pool of blood behind.

A photograph of the individual was distributed to other officers, and within minutes, an officer in downtown Victoria spotted someone who seemed to be a match.

The individual, who was still bleeding and in psychological difficulty, refused medical treatment, and was apprehended under the Mental Health Act and taken to hospital.

Police said the injuries are believed to be due to a medical condition and not criminal in nature.









						Blood trail leads police to injured person downtown
					

Officers were initially called to a bus stop in the 1200-block of Esquimalt Road after a passerby spotted a large pool of blood




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:


> Halloween comes early to these parts....
> 
> 
> Blood trail leads police to injured person downtown​
> Officers were initially called to a bus stop in the 1200-block of Esquimalt Road after a passerby spotted a large pool of blood
> 
> 
> A trail of blood led officers to a person in “significant medical and mental-health distress” after an hours-long search Saturday, say Victoria police.
> The incident began about 8:45 a.m. when officers were called to a bus stop in the 1200-block of Esquimalt Road after a passerby spotted a large pool of blood.
> 
> Officers discovered a trail of blood that extended through the neighbourhood and were concerned that someone could be seriously injured.
> 
> After checking with hospitals, they began an extensive search, following a blood trail that extended over two kilometres through Esquimalt, Victoria West and the downtown area. Bloody clothing was located at one site.
> 
> An officer from the department’s Esquimalt division found surveillance footage showing a person in the 1200-block of Esquimalt Road with an untreated injury that they appeared to be ignoring. The person was seen leaving a pool of blood behind.
> 
> A photograph of the individual was distributed to other officers, and within minutes, an officer in downtown Victoria spotted someone who seemed to be a match.
> 
> The individual, who was still bleeding and in psychological difficulty, refused medical treatment, and was apprehended under the Mental Health Act and taken to hospital.
> 
> Police said the injuries are believed to be due to a medical condition and not criminal in nature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blood trail leads police to injured person downtown
> 
> 
> Officers were initially called to a bus stop in the 1200-block of Esquimalt Road after a passerby spotted a large pool of blood
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com



Lovely...that was a fair hike for someone bleeding.


----------



## daftandbarmy

medicineman said:


> Lovely...that was a fair hike for someone bleeding.



I know. I've hiked the 'Stations of the Cross' in Jerusalem and I don't think it was nearly that far


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Brad Sallows said:


> There isn't a Judge Dredd.  What happens is vigilantism.  Then the authorities push back.  Then the people choose different elected authorities until they get ones who deal with the problem.  There is no guarantee that the new elected officials won't be more "colourful" than some of the ones previewed in the past few years.


----------



## daftandbarmy

The new bridge makes a great (loud) speaker's corner 









						Jay Joseph on Reels |
					

20K views, 22 likes, 20 comments, 5 shares, Facebook Reels from Jay Joseph.




					www.facebook.com
				













						Incident at Johnson Street Bridge resolved without injury
					

A person was standing on an out-of-bounds section of the bridge speaking into a megaphone




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## mariomike

Brampton enters the chat...









						Troubling video of alleged impaired driver in Jeep
					

Video has emerged showing the moment police in Brampton attempted to stop an alleged impaired driver causing chaos on a residential street.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## GK .Dundas

Basing it on what I see here in Manitoba





daftandbarmy said:


> The new bridge makes a great (loud) speaker's corner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jay Joseph on Reels |
> 
> 
> 20K views, 22 likes, 20 comments, 5 shares, Facebook Reels from Jay Joseph.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.facebook.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Incident at Johnson Street Bridge resolved without injury
> 
> 
> A person was standing on an out-of-bounds section of the bridge speaking into a megaphone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


He had a megaphone,did he actually have anything to say seems to be one question.?


----------



## daftandbarmy

GK .Dundas said:


> Basing it on what I see here in Manitoba
> He had a megaphone,did he actually have anything to say seems to be one question.?



I couldn't make out what he was saying from the video clip. In Victoria, on that bridge, the main concern would be if he was going to jump or not. 

Having been stuck in bridge related traffic jams there before, I'm sure there were frustrated drivers urging him to do so...


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:


> Because: Victoria...
> 
> 
> Man not criminally responsible for randomly punching pregnant woman​
> Brett Joseph Mountford, 33, was in a dream-like state when he attacked two women and assaulted a police officer on March 19, 2021, a judge found
> 
> A man who punched two women, one of them pregnant, and spat on a police officer in downtown Victoria last year has been found not criminally responsible because of a severe mental disorder.
> 
> Brett Joseph Mountford, 33, was convicted of assault causing bodily harm in connection with the attacks on the two women and assaulting a police officer on March 19, 2021.
> 
> Mountford punched a pregnant woman on Pandora Avenue, then, a little while later, struck another woman walking in the area near Johnson and Wharf streets. Later, he spat on the officer who arrested him.
> 
> “These assaults on the two women were completely random, entirely unprovoked and very frightening for them,” said Victoria provincial court Judge Christine Lowe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Man not criminally responsible for randomly punching pregnant woman
> 
> 
> Brett Joseph Mountford, 33, was in a dream-like state when he attacked two women and assaulted a police officer on March 19, 2021, a judge found
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


SO is this mentally ill person in a psych ward now? Never mind I read the article. Meth AND schizophrenia! 

A great combination.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OldSolduer said:


> SO is this mentally ill person in a psych ward now? Never mind I read the article. Meth AND schizophrenia!
> 
> A great combination.



This is the first time he's come out with this, of which I approve.


Victoria police chief backs involuntary custodial care for those at risk for harming others​ 
Public confidence in the justice system has to be restored, the chief says

  

Victoria Police Chief Del Manak says he supports involuntary custodial care for people struggling with substance abuse and mental illness who are at high risk of harming others, as recommended by a health researcher and former deputy police chief this week.
“We have to stop kidding ourselves. It’s not working.

“When are we going to admit that some people just can’t stop and no amount of hoping is going to change that?” Manak said Friday.
“As a police chief, I’ve strongly advocated for enhanced care for addicted and mentally ill people for a number of years. What we need are treatment facilities to respond to the needs and legislation to treat people involuntarily.”

The chief’s comments come in the wake of a report commissioned by B.C.’s attorney general and public safety minister to address concerns about repeat offenders and the increase in random, violent-stranger attacks.

and former Vancouver deputy police chief Doug LePard were released by the government Wednesday. Their full 150-page report is expected later this month.










						Victoria police chief backs involuntary custodial care for those at risk for harming others
					

Public confidence in the justice system has to be restored, the chief says




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Lumber

daftandbarmy said:


> This is the first time he's come out with this, of which I approve.
> 
> 
> Victoria police chief backs involuntary custodial care for those at risk for harming others​
> Public confidence in the justice system has to be restored, the chief says
> 
> 
> 
> Victoria Police Chief Del Manak says he supports involuntary custodial care for people struggling with substance abuse and mental illness who are at high risk of harming others, as recommended by a health researcher and former deputy police chief this week.
> “We have to stop kidding ourselves. It’s not working.
> 
> “When are we going to admit that some people just can’t stop and no amount of hoping is going to change that?” Manak said Friday.
> “As a police chief, I’ve strongly advocated for enhanced care for addicted and mentally ill people for a number of years. What we need are treatment facilities to respond to the needs and legislation to treat people involuntarily.”
> 
> The chief’s comments come in the wake of a report commissioned by B.C.’s attorney general and public safety minister to address concerns about repeat offenders and the increase in random, violent-stranger attacks.
> 
> and former Vancouver deputy police chief Doug LePard were released by the government Wednesday. Their full 150-page report is expected later this month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Victoria police chief backs involuntary custodial care for those at risk for harming others
> 
> 
> Public confidence in the justice system has to be restored, the chief says
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


Where's the woke Victoria based version of this site (army.ca that is) so I can watch their brains explode over this announcement?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Lumber said:


> Where's the woke Victoria based version of this site (army.ca that is) so I can watch their brains explode over this announcement?



It's OK, the (probably) new Premier is a big fan too:

BC NDP frontrunner David Eby proposes involuntary treatment for multiple overdose patients​







						CityNews
					






					vancouver.citynews.ca


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:


> It's OK, the (probably) new Premier is a big fan too:
> 
> BC NDP frontrunner David Eby proposes involuntary treatment for multiple overdose patients​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouver.citynews.ca


That's all great to beak off about, but since the MoH is scaring/phuquing physicians off out of the Province, who is going to treat these people, who's going go staff and secure the treatment facilities, and most importantly, who's going to pay to increase the inpatient beds/build the facilities to house them?

🍿


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:


> It's OK, the (probably) new Premier is a big fan too:
> 
> BC NDP frontrunner David Eby proposes involuntary treatment for multiple overdose patients​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CityNews
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouver.citynews.ca


The issue is that its involuntary. Those that don't WANT to change will take the program and be released and relapse. Its a revolving door but hey  it does employ people.


----------



## Quirky

medicineman said:


> That's all great to beak off about, but since the MoH is scaring/phuquing physicians off out of the Province, who is going to treat these people, who's going go staff and secure the treatment facilities, and most importantly, who's going to pay to increase the inpatient beds/build the facilities to house them?



This is a public health emergency. What do provinces do when they can't properly manage and plan? Call 1-800-CAF.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

OldSolduer said:


> The issue is that its involuntary. Those that don't WANT to change will take the program and be released and relapse. Its a revolving door but hey  it does employ people.


Malaysia does this, with about a 15% success rate, but it does keep them off the street, gives them food and treatment and when they get out they are in better health for whatever they decide to do. We could pay foreigners to do it. If your good you get the Filipino ward, if your bad you get the Russian Ward.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Well, let's see how this all pans out on the public safety front.

One piece of good news 


Ben Isitt, who received the most votes of any councillor in the 2018 election and was the only sitting councillor to run for re-election this year, was not re-elected.

He received 6,821 votes, or 4.3 per cent of all votes, when 42 of the city's 48 polls had reported their totals – making him the 11th highest voted candidate this year.









						Marianne Alto elected mayor of Victoria
					

B.C.'s capital city has a new mayor. Long-time councillor Marianne Alto was elected mayor of Victoria on Saturday night.  Alto garnered 15,090 votes (55.5 per cent), defeating challenger Stephen Andrew who received 9,775 (36 per cent).




					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


----------



## SeaKingTacco

daftandbarmy said:


> Well, let's see how this all pans out on the public safety front.
> 
> One piece of good news
> 
> 
> Ben Isitt, who received the most votes of any councillor in the 2018 election and was the only sitting councillor to run for re-election this year, was not re-elected.
> 
> He received 6,821 votes, or 4.3 per cent of all votes, when 42 of the city's 48 polls had reported their totals – making him the 11th highest voted candidate this year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marianne Alto elected mayor of Victoria
> 
> 
> B.C.'s capital city has a new mayor. Long-time councillor Marianne Alto was elected mayor of Victoria on Saturday night.  Alto garnered 15,090 votes (55.5 per cent), defeating challenger Stephen Andrew who received 9,775 (36 per cent).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


I saw that. Even Victoria residents have had enough of his crap.

Could not happen to a nicer guy…


----------



## Retired AF Guy

And in related news: Ken Sim defeats Kennedy Stewart to become mayor as ABC party sweeps Vancouver election


----------



## Quirky

Retired AF Guy said:


> And in related news: Ken Sim defeats Kennedy Stewart to become mayor as ABC party sweeps Vancouver election





> It was born on the province that decision in government should not be made on the advice of polls, lobbyists, activists, or whatever is trending on Twitter



Meanwhile in Trudeauland.....


----------



## brihard

Tragic and relevant, a member of the RCMP has just been murdered in Burnaby, BC, reportedly assisting bylaw at a homeless encampment. Her name has not yet been released pending notification of family.









						Burnaby, B.C. RCMP officer fatally stabbed while assisting bylaw officers at homeless camp - BC | Globalnews.ca
					

Sources confirm to Global News that a female police officer who was assisting Burnaby bylaw officers with a call at a homeless encampment in a park was killed Tuesday.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Booter

We were running scenarios as a detachment today- containing some experiences from “tent cities”. They are incredibly unpredictable places and the frequency of being called their creates all types of issues. Terrible thing this.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Booter said:


> We were running scenarios as a detachment today- containing some experiences from “tent cities”. They are incredibly unpredictable places and the frequency of being called their creates all types of issues. Terrible thing this.



I actively avoid certain parts of town that cops have to go into routinely. I can't believe they don't allow you to keep a pistol out and ready to go, just in case.


----------



## Skysix

daftandbarmy said:


> I actively avoid certain parts of town that cops have to go into routinely. I can't believe they don't allow you to keep a pistol out and ready to go, just in case.


Pistol in hand, both hands inside upper portion of body armor (through armholes). Looks fairly non threatening until you take a step back into a better / oriented shooting position and rotate away extending empty hand in warning gesture prior to rejoining grip hand as it comes up from pulling pistol out of concealment and extends to firing position

(I know what I want to say but am probably describing it badly)


----------



## OldSolduer

Booter said:


> We were running scenarios as a detachment today- containing some experiences from “tent cities”. They are incredibly unpredictable places and the frequency of being called their creates all types of issues. Terrible thing this.


Once they are arrested - safely for all I hope - we in the Corrections system get to take care of them. Unpredictable - yes. Mentally unstable and their numbers are increasing. We used to have about 19 or so in jail 20 years ago now the number is at least 60. But here they are contained and managed somewhat.

I cannot imagine what it must be like for the police that have to dismantle these camps.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Skysix said:


> Pistol in hand, both hands inside upper portion of body armor (through armholes). Looks fairly non threatening until you take a step back into a better / oriented shooting position and rotate away extending empty hand in warning gesture prior to rejoining grip hand as it comes up from pulling pistol out of concealment and extends to firing position
> 
> (I know what I want to say but am probably describing it badly)


Why not pivot 90 degrees in one direction, point one arm straight out towards the threat and with the pistol still hidden inside the body armor fire a round through the open space? 

To onlookers it will look like you shot someone with a finger gun. Instead street cred.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Skysix said:


> Pistol in hand, both hands inside upper portion of body armor (through armholes). Looks fairly non threatening until you take a step back into a better / oriented shooting position and rotate away extending empty hand in warning gesture prior to rejoining grip hand as it comes up from pulling pistol out of concealment and extends to firing position
> 
> (I know what I want to say but am probably describing it badly)



Damn... that's poetry in motion, right there


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:


> Why not pivot 90 degrees in one direction, point one arm straight out towards the threat and with the pistol still hidden inside the body armor fire a round through the open space?
> 
> To onlookers it will look like you shot someone with a finger gun. Instead street cred.


Or just be huge and intimidating and have a good draw!  😁


----------



## Colin Parkinson

OldSolduer said:


> Once they are arrested - safely for all I hope - we in the Corrections system get to take care of them. Unpredictable - yes. Mentally unstable and their numbers are increasing. We used to have about 19 or so in jail 20 years ago now the number is at least 60. But here they are contained and managed somewhat.
> 
> I cannot imagine what it must be like for the police that have to dismantle these camps.


You can't build speciality hospital to care for them and have the staff to help them, but we can throw them into jail......


----------



## CBH99

Colin Parkinson said:


> You can't build speciality hospital to care for them and have the staff to help them, but we can throw them into jail......


Right?

When I worked corrections (provincially) we would house the true mental health folks in the healthcare ward of the prison, where their living conditions were more relaxed than if in a regular unit.  

Still boring as hell, and the few nurses we had on staff weren’t of any help beyond ensuring medications were taken.  
Then they’d mostly be released back into society, with no real help given to get them on track from when they first arrived…



…_We had HOW much money available to donate to the WE Charity again?_…


----------



## Brad Sallows

Problem is, politicians spent whatever was saved long ago, and were already climbing the walls trying to figure out new ways to tax people even before inflation and rising interest rates further compressed their non-existent fiscal "freedom of manoeuvre".  A party which is fiscally responsible risks creating an opportunity for its opponents to make spending promises.  Voters vote for that sh!t, then bitch about things undone that might actually be public responsibilities.

You want public safety and defence seen to?  You first have to resolutely vote out the culprits most likely to find all sorts of things to spend on, and vote in the ones willing to crush a multitude of rice bowls.  Every other issue can wait.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Saanich Police investigate two homicides believed to be related
					

The go to place for all the latest news, events and contests happening in Greater Victoria BC, Canada.




					www.victoriabuzz.com
				




It just gets better and better…


----------



## daftandbarmy

SeaKingTacco said:


> Saanich Police investigate two homicides believed to be related
> 
> 
> The go to place for all the latest news, events and contests happening in Greater Victoria BC, Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.victoriabuzz.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It just gets better and better…



How charming...

“What I’ve heard [from neighbours] is the girl was screaming for some time.”









						Two homicides in Saanich near Uptown, likely related; male is in custody
					

Heavy police presence in Bethune Avenue area near Uptown; investigators feel there is no risk to the public.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

He failed to address 'catch and release' for 5 years as Sol Gen. It will be interesting to see if he can deal with it as Premier:

Les Leyne: Eby eyes 'profound' crime intervention​ 
Left hanging in the air is the point that he was minister responsible for it over five full years.









						Les Leyne: Eby eyes 'profound' crime intervention
					

Left hanging in the air is the point that he was minister responsible for it over five full years.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Profound" interventions earlier in the cycle of life may alleviate tomorrow's problem.  Won't do anything about today's.  Either we tolerate people doing as they please, or we restrain them.


----------



## brihard

daftandbarmy said:


> He failed to address 'catch and release' for 5 years as Sol Gen. It will be interesting to see if he can deal with it as Premier:
> 
> Les Leyne: Eby eyes 'profound' crime intervention​
> Left hanging in the air is the point that he was minister responsible for it over five full years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Les Leyne: Eby eyes 'profound' crime intervention
> 
> 
> Left hanging in the air is the point that he was minister responsible for it over five full years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


If he’s not taking a serious look at paying for a bunch more courts, judges, prosecutors, and support staff, and funding significantly more inpatient mental health treatment, anything else will be meaningless.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Couldn't pay me enough... hats off to these folks:









						Killing of RCMP officer has Victoria Police Department rethinking how it patrols camps
					

Higher levels of aggression being encountered at Victoria’s homeless camp sites, says police chief




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:


> Couldn't pay me enough... hats off to these folks:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Killing of RCMP officer has Victoria Police Department rethinking how it patrols camps
> 
> 
> Higher levels of aggression being encountered at Victoria’s homeless camp sites, says police chief
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com









Cleanse by fire...oops, inside voice...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

There are options......


----------



## Good2Golf

Does VPD have POUs?


----------



## Booter

Good2Golf said:


> Does VPD have POUs?


So I’ve managed one tent city and assisted a municipal agency with dismantling one as well,

In general there is no required process but in a general sense you don’t use public order- especially in their helmeted full gear until it’s escalated. You will be viewed as the enemy, dehumanized and you will escalate things waaaaay up, and invite assault- have the public and courts turn on you. You have to wander through a series of stages until they PROVE it’s necessary. And is what happened in the municipal assist,

In my former I had to assign teams of officers to bylaw…social services…blah blah blah.

I know you guys are being a little tongue in cheek- but police operations have a heavy psychological lean to them- both to perception of the public AND to those being policed. It’s a constant balancing act of being portrayed as capable
And strong but also kind and empathetic. Sometimes too far one way and the other, they can’t lean on these camps just because of that event, all it will be is an eye opener to those planning the visits to them- as it becomes complacent routine because there will be dozens of calls that day

So her being killed doesn’t really give permission to dismantle the camps- especially by force. Especially given the courts saying the camps are allowed to exist


----------



## Good2Golf

@Booter, tracking.  👍🏼  My question was more about whether Victoria even had the thought or will to deal with the end of the spectrum, appreciating that there remains some space and actions between Bylaw-officer only, and up, engagement of such situations. (Vice go in, foot stomping and baton/shield tapping in unison to sweep the ground….yet).


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good2Golf said:


> @Booter, tracking.  👍🏼  My question was more about whether Victoria even had the thought or will to deal with the end of the spectrum, appreciating that there remains some space and actions between Bylaw-officer only, and up, engagement of such situations. (Vice go in, foot stomping and baton/shield tapping in unison to sweep the ground….yet).



Meanwhile, last Friday:

Car stolen, stabbing and hit-and-run part of crime spree Friday night in Victoria​ 
Police are looking for surveillance video to sort out a series of crimes, which took place just before midnight Friday.









						Car stolen, stabbing and hit-and-run part of crime spree Friday night in Victoria
					

Police are looking for surveillance video to sort out a series of crimes, which took place just before midnight Friday.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## mariomike

Somehow, I was under the impression Victoria was where Canadians go to retire.


----------



## Eaglelord17

Oh how I wish exile was still a option for these chronic criminals. Imagine if we could just kick them out, instead of them clogging up the justice system and harming those around them.

The Conservatives should figure out how many people have been killed by individuals on parole/catch and release since Bill C75 was enacted and lay the body count at the Liberals feet. Would likely make a good talking point for the media.


----------



## daftandbarmy

mariomike said:


> Somehow, I was under the impression Victoria was where Canadians go to retire.



There are 13 municipalities in the postal code known as 'Victoria'. So, yes, lots of people retire in this geographical area


----------



## quadrapiper

Eaglelord17 said:


> Oh how I wish exile was still a option for these chronic criminals. Imagine if we could just kick them out, instead of them clogging up the justice system and harming those around them.
> 
> The Conservatives should figure out how many people have been killed by individuals on parole/catch and release since Bill C75 was enacted and lay the body count at the Liberals feet. Would likely make a good talking point for the media.


To which the response is that the province(s) are driving this problem through ill-considered mishandling of mental health patients and services, leaving the police, courts, and various corrective services and institutions handling issues for which they are the next best, but by no means well-suited, match.

Getting the should-be-institutionalized out of the criminal system should clean up most of the problems, and allow better identification of those faults with e.g. C75 that are actually structural, rather than owing to using a system meant for mostly rational criminals to handle people whose view of reality doesn't match baseline.


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> Somehow, I was under the impression Victoria was where Canadians go to retire.


It’s also where you go so you can sleep outside in February and not die of exposure.


----------



## Kat Stevens

daftandbarmy said:


> There are 13 municipalities in the postal code known as 'Victoria'. So, yes, lots of people retire in this geographical area


...to a tent on Douglas Street. 24/7/365 lovely camping weather and hot and cold running fentanyl, a seniors paradise!


----------



## OldSolduer

Brad Sallows said:


> "Profound" interventions earlier in the cycle of life may alleviate tomorrow's problem.  Won't do anything about today's.  Either we tolerate people doing as they please, or we restrain them.


John Howard Society enters the chat 

There has never been an inmate that the JHS has not loved and thought we - the gaolers - are all psychopaths and brutes. 

Now some tw@t in Winnipeg says by dismantling camps on the Leg grounds shows "a lack of empathy". 

Hey Mr Expert where is the empathy for the victims of crime?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

OldSolduer said:


> Hey Mr Expert where is the empathy for the victims of crime?


It's your fault for having stuff the bad guy needs or considers their own.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Now I'm wondering what happens if I decide I need what the guy took from me more than he does and take it back...


----------



## medicineman

OldSolduer said:


> Now some tw@t in Winnipeg says by dismantling camps on the Leg grounds shows "a lack of empathy".
> 
> Hey Mr Expert where is the empathy for the victims of crime?


I'm also willing to bet said expert(s) aren't willing to board any of those folks in their own homes over the winter either...


----------



## OldSolduer

medicineman said:


> I'm also willing to bet said expert(s) aren't willing to board any of those folks in their own homes over the winter either...


Oh you mean like Vince Li's psych team that won't take him in either?


----------



## Kat Stevens

medicineman said:


> I'm also willing to bet said expert(s) aren't willing to board any of those folks in their own homes over the winter either...


Invoke the EA and clean them out, it’s easy!  Public health and safety and all that.


----------



## medicineman

Kat Stevens said:


> Invoke the EA and clean them out, it’s easy!  Public health and safety and all that.


Downside is there isn't anywhere for many of them to go - I'm willing to bet many have burned bridges with some shelters (we have some regulars in my ED that basically aren't allowed in any shelters in town, some of their FN Bands have rejected/ejected them). Not a lot of forensic psych beds, and I'm sure Jim doesn't want any of them visiting his castle either.


----------



## Grimey

Kat Stevens said:


> ...to a tent on Douglas Street. 24/7/365 lovely camping weather and hot and cold running fentanyl, a seniors paradise!


Pandora is the epicenter for those of a tent persuasion.  It has the bonus of having McD's directly across the road if one needs to drop a deuce.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Victoria leading the news yet again! 

Vaughn Palmer: If repeat offenders roam free, we may be hearing again that these attacks are 'unacceptable'​VICTORIA — The B.C. Liberals started question period Thursday by challenging Attorney-General Murray Rankin over the latest random attack on the streets of B.C.

“Yesterday we learned of a horrific, random attack where a man threw coffee on a mother and her baby in a stroller — in Downtown Victoria, a very short walking distance from this Legislature,” said Opposition House Leader Todd Stone.

The story was well-known in the provincial capital replied Rankin, whose riding includes the Victoria suburb of Oak Bay.

“It is horrific; it is unacceptable. We are taking the steps needed to address this issue, on an urgent basis.”

Variations on that answer are standard fare for Rankin this Legislature session.

A baby in a stroller is attacked with a glass bottle. A prolific offender smashes a man in the head with a steel pipe.

“Horrible,” says Rankin. “Unacceptable.”

“A violent prolific offender, with over 30 convictions ranging from assault, assault with a weapon and uttering threats is accused of viciously attacking a 19-year-old Asian woman, yelling racial slurs and hitting her over the head with a steel pipe,” says Opposition Leader Kevin Falcon.

“Despite the best efforts of police, this prolific violent offender was released back onto the streets on the same day. It took only two hours and 18 minutes for him to again victimize the community and commit yet another crime.”

Rankin vows retribution.

“These acts of violence are totally unacceptable,” he replies. “People who commit them must face consequences.”

Yet the record suggests that such offenders aren’t likely to face any consequences under the NDP watch in B.C.

Another example:

“Tyler Newton is a violent, prolific offender who was convicted in the unprovoked fatal knife attack of an unsuspecting stranger on a bus.

“Newton has, in the past, blatantly and repeatedly disregarded release conditions, but shockingly, he was once again being released and is out in the community. The government made it clear that the Crown prosecutor agreed with his latest release, and there was no attempt by this government to keep him in custody.”

“Why?” asks B.C. Liberal MLA Karin Kirkpatrick, “was Tyler Newton’s right to reoffend more important to this NDP government than the right of the community to be safe?”

Rankin assured the MLA that the NDP government shares her “frustration with this horrific act. We share the understanding that this cannot continue and we are taking concrete steps to address it.”

But Rankin’s well-rehearsed nostrums — ‘horrible” — “unacceptable” — “there must be consequences” — “we are taking action” — are no longer reassuring, even to the dutiful members of the government backbench.

From time-to-time, Solicitor-General Mike Farnworth has to rally the troops by taking over from Rankin and blistering the B.C. Liberals with reminders of their sins.

Rankin has stumbled in other ways as well. Early on he blasted the B.C. Liberals on social media for relying on “anecdotal fear rhetoric” to dramatize the problems of random attacks and repeat offenders. The posting was soon taken down when someone on his staff realized that these were real people being attacked, victimized and traumatized — they weren’t just anecdotes.

At one point last week, Rankin blundered into suggesting that “random attacks are a fact of life.”

Another line of defence for Rankin is his insistence that the problem of repeat offenders is much the same elsewhere in Canada and a product of changes in the Criminal Code, not policy in B.C.

But that rationale was challenged this week by Doug LePard, one of the authors of the NDP government-commissioned report on repeat offenders and random violence. In other provinces, the remand of violent prolific offenders has returned to pre-COVID-19 levels, LePard told a Conversations Live panel on street crime in Vancouver this week.

“Are judges different here? Are Crown not asking for remand?” LePard challenged.

He suggested that the problem was made-in B.C., drawing on his own experience in dealing with the Crown prosecution service when putting together his report.

“When we suggested being more assertive and seeking detention for offenders who breached their conditions over and over and over again, I have to say we got pushback on that.”

B.C. Liberal MLA Elenore Sturko, a former RCMP officer, quoted LePard in the Legislature on Thursday. Rankin, caught off-guard, fell back on insisting that, no, the problem was the same everywhere.

Privately, New Democrats admit Rankin is hopeless and don’t expect him to continue as attorney-general after David Eby becomes premier next month. Eby has promised “profound intervention” to deal with random attacks and repeat offenders.

But until Eby stepped down in July, he had presided as attorney-general for four years while the crime problem was building. Eby has named his last deputy attorney-general Shannon Salter — lately she’s been Rankin’s deputy — to head the public service. So it remains to be seen whether Eby has any “profound” ideas that he didn’t implement when he had the chance as attorney-general.

Otherwise, if the repeat offenders roam free and the violence continues, we may be hearing once again that these attacks are — you guessed it — “unacceptable.”



			Vaughn Palmer: If repeat offenders roam free, we may be hearing again that these attacks are 'unacceptable'


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Maybe we need Gulags?


----------



## medicineman

Colin Parkinson said:


> Maybe we need Gulags?


We could set up a camp on our side of Hans Island...


----------



## Brad Sallows

I sense another Kurt Russell movie in the offing.


----------



## RedFive

Colin Parkinson said:


> Maybe we need Gulags?


All I will say to this is the most violent of interventions I've had with "clients" have always had the best reviews from the victims/complainants.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Eventually nature will correct our inaction one way or another.  

It just a question of when and how.


----------



## Skysix

Halifax Tar said:


> Eventually nature will correct our inaction one way or another.
> 
> It just a question of when and how.


And how well our self defense laws  work in keeping victims out of jail for removing attackers from the gene pool


----------



## Halifax Tar

Skysix said:


> And how well our self defense laws  work in keeping victims out of jail for removing attackers from the gene pool



Eventually, if it gets bad enough, social order will erode and no one will enforce laws anyways.  

Then society will resurface and will reestablish it's self and begin the process again. 

Everything moves in circles.


----------



## CBH99

Skysix said:


> And how well our self defense laws  work in keeping victims out of jail for removing attackers from the gene pool


Whatever judge, or even crown prosecutor - initially decided that the person whose home was broken into is somehow guilty of a crime, should be embarrassed.  

And anybody who has a criminal record/in custody should have that record purged.  If we can do it for anybody who ever had a marijuana charge/conviction, we can do it for the odd few who got in hot water for defending themselves/their family while inside their own home.  

(Ontario guy who defended his family from an intruder that threatened to kill them, I’m thinking of you as I write this.)


Do our national morals align moreso with those of the Saudi/Pakistani/Taliban governments, in which a rape victim can still be charged with adultery & killed, gang rapes can happen on busses which result in the victim being murdered during/after (with no consequences for the culprits), or a lawless land where anybody who claims something as theirs can have it by right of force?

Or are we a nation who’s values say people should be able to defend themselves without even _worrying_ they might get charged?  (Reasonable self defence, that is)

(If I were to break into a home & the family was sitting at the table having dinner, and I then threatened them & attacked them…and the dad kicked the living hell out of me while he was making sure I did nothing to harm his family…. I’d be jaw dropped if he somehow got charged too.)


If Canada doesn’t exist 50 years to 100 years from now, I’m willing to bet that it’s because we keep allowing the stupid people to be in charge - and the masses just get tired of the needless stupidity, ineffectiveness, or ‘woke shit.’ 

(Re stupid people in charge of government policies, national businesses, national institutions, etc)


----------



## Colin Parkinson

If you conducted a proper citizens arrest, you be labelled a vigilante regardless. They don't want Canadians to be able to defend themselves, it's ironic that most of the successful cases of self defense here were bad guy on bad guy. Because they basically made it illegal to level the playing field for the law abiding.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Colin Parkinson said:


> If you conducted a proper citizens arrest, you be labelled a vigilante regardless. They don't want Canadians to be able to defend themselves, it's ironic that most of the successful cases of self defense here were bad guy on bad guy. Because they basically made it illegal to level the playing field for the law abiding.



I am no social scientist, but this is how I see it.

I think the idea behind the restricting or private citizens from enacting their own defence comes from a naïve and altruistic nature.  We see ourselves or peaceful and orderly, and relatively crime free.  And for many Canadians violence is a disgusting action and really only acceptable in a hockey rink. 

Its not a terrible way to run a society, so long as our police and corrections forces are kept large and equipped enough to deal with crimes quickly and house the dangerous indefinitely.

The problems arise when the above breaks down or is underfunded, understaffed and underequipped.  And when the perception is that offender rights have reach parity with that of the victims.

I've been dealing with mentally unstable neighbor.  Multiple calls to the city and the police.  They all agree he needs help, but until he threatens violence and/or acts violently there is nothing they can do.  They visit him and he's combative and espouses conspiracies. 

The frustration from the constable we have been dealing with is palpable, she continually apologizes that she cant do more and has advised us to seek a peace bond, which really does nothing if he goes violent, and continue to call the non emergency line and report the incidents. So now I have to stand by and wait until things really go sideways instead of having our institutions act proactively and get this individual the help they need.

I also want to put out there that I recognize my negative bias when it comes to LEOs, but the last couple of months has been refreshing and I can really say I appreciate the work the HRP has done for me and my family.


----------



## CBH99

99.5% of my interactions with the police have been positive.  The 0.5% was actually a HUGELY negative interaction with a police officer, but he was a by and large rarity.  (Mike Williamson, LRPS, calling you out for being a corrupt piece of sleaze.)

It has to be frustrating for the police in situations like that also.  You can’t charge someone who hasn’t her committed a crime, and a peace bond/restraining order really is as good as the person it’s taken out against.  

So you get stuck with a volatile, mentally unstable neighbour who causes all kinds of problems, but hasn’t technically done anything illegal.  Then when something does go sideways, our institutions respond - but by then who knows how it’ll go 


Glad to hear the officer is representing her profession well.  Sucks you have to deal with the situation…


----------



## Brad Sallows

There aren't many assholes; there are many citizens.  If citizens start taking matters into their own hands, proper enforcement becomes practically impossible.  So it is necessary to step very hard on outbreaks of citizens taking matters into their own hands.


----------



## RangerRay

Question for those in Victoria since I can’t find any information other than one particularly asshole leftist councillor was dumped…

Is the new mayor and council, like the new one in Vancouver, more grown-up than the previous one?  Or is it also committed to silliness while chaos reigns outside council chambers?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin Parkinson said:


> Maybe we need Gulags?



For the politicians? Absolutely 


RangerRay said:


> Question for those in Victoria since I can’t find any information other than one particularly asshole leftist councillor was dumped…
> 
> Is the new mayor and council, like the new one in Vancouver, more grown-up than the previous one?  Or is it also committed to silliness while chaos reigns outside council chambers?



Ben Issit is out, thank Gawd. All the council members are new and the only holdover is the new Mayor, who used to be a council member. 

The jury is still out on her, though


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin Parkinson said:


> If you conducted a proper citizens arrest, you be labelled a vigilante regardless. They don't want Canadians to be able to defend themselves, it's ironic that most of the successful cases of self defense here were bad guy on bad guy. Because they basically made it illegal to level the playing field for the law abiding.



More about that....



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/billy-mcgillicuddy-mcadam-vigilante-1.6635153


----------



## Colin Parkinson

The CFO went all stinky on my friend when he tried to register a 16" barrelled 870. They deemed it a prohibited device and wanted to charge him. Turns out that the gun had belonged (sold as surplused) to the SQ and they had cut the 2" off themselves and since they were not a "Licenced gun manufacturer" that was deemed as a "Sawn off gun". In the end he had to turn in the barrel and buy a new 14" barrel for it that was legal....


----------



## daftandbarmy

Stating the obvious....



‘I believe Victoria is a city and that’s a good thing’: Alto aims for transformation with intent​Long-serving councillor has an ambitious vision for Victoria as well as an eye for moderation


Marianne Alto will be sworn in as Victoria mayor on Nov. 3, heading a council table full of new faces after 12 years as a city councillor herself. 
Alto decisively defeated fellow councillor Stephen Andrew to win the mayoral race by a margin of more than 6,000 votes, a result that somewhat surprised the low-key longtime politician.

“I tried really hard to be really brutally honest about who I am and what I think and what I want to do,” Alto told Capital Daily of her successful campaign. “And for whatever reason, that's what [Victoria voters] elected.”

Alto ran on a platform stuffed with references to existing city policies with promises to accelerate and expand them. Her campaign emphasized her experience in local government and promised voters balance and progress.









						‘I believe Victoria is a city and that’s a good thing’: Alto aims for transformation with intent
					

Long-serving councillor has an ambitious vision for Victoria as well as an eye for moderation




					www.capitaldaily.ca


----------



## NavyShooter

Ahhh.....common sense is not so common....


----------



## medicineman

Halifax Tar said:


> I am no social scientist, but this is how I see it.
> 
> I think the idea behind the restricting or private citizens from enacting their own defence comes from a naïve and altruistic nature.  We see ourselves or peaceful and orderly, and relatively crime free.  And for many Canadians violence is a disgusting action and really only acceptable in a hockey rink.
> 
> Its not a terrible way to run a society, so long as our police and corrections forces are kept large and equipped enough to deal with crimes quickly and house the dangerous indefinitely.
> 
> The problems arise when the above breaks down or is underfunded, understaffed and underequipped.  And when the perception is that offender rights have reach parity with that of the victims.
> 
> I've been dealing with mentally unstable neighbor.  Multiple calls to the city and the police.  They all agree he needs help, but until he threatens violence and/or acts violently there is nothing they can do.  They visit him and he's combative and espouses conspiracies.
> 
> The frustration from the constable we have been dealing with is palpable, she continually apologizes that she cant do more and has advised us to seek a peace bond, which really does nothing if he goes violent, and continue to call the non emergency line and report the incidents. So now I have to stand by and wait until things really go sideways instead of having our institutions act proactively and get this individual the help they need.
> 
> I also want to put out there that I recognize my negative bias when it comes to LEOs, but the last couple of months has been refreshing and I can really say I appreciate the work the HRP has done for me and my family.


Suggestion - gather/keep as much evidence of what's going on as you can.  Look up your provincial Mental Health Act for what "Forms" apply to private citizens requesting examination by a physician and swear the application before a magistrate - if they feel it's legit, a warrant will be issued for detention under the MHA and the person would be taken to an ER for examination +/- referral for formal  psychiatric examination/hold.  If the person is very fucked up, especially not looking after themselves and becoming a potential threat to others around, it may get them the help they need.  

Example - S10(1) Manitoba Mental Health Act, which would lead to a Form 2 here.  C.C.S.M. c. M110


----------



## Halifax Tar

medicineman said:


> Suggestion - gather/keep as much evidence of what's going on as you can.  Look up your provincial Mental Health Act for what "Forms" apply to private citizens requesting examination by a physician and swear the application before a magistrate - if they feel it's legit, a warrant will be issued for detention under the MHA and the person would be taken to an ER for examination +/- referral for formal  psychiatric examination/hold.  If the person is very fucked up, especially not looking after themselves and becoming a potential threat to others around, it may get them the help they need.
> 
> Example - S10(1) Manitoba Mental Health Act, which would lead to a Form 2 here.  C.C.S.M. c. M110



Thanks for the advice, we will definitely look into that.


----------



## daftandbarmy

medicineman said:


> Suggestion - gather/keep as much evidence of what's going on as you can.  Look up your provincial Mental Health Act for what "Forms" apply to private citizens requesting examination by a physician and swear the application before a magistrate - if they feel it's legit, a warrant will be issued for detention under the MHA and the person would be taken to an ER for examination +/- referral for formal  psychiatric examination/hold.  If the person is very fucked up, especially not looking after themselves and becoming a potential threat to others around, it may get them the help they need.
> 
> Example - S10(1) Manitoba Mental Health Act, which would lead to a Form 2 here.  C.C.S.M. c. M110



Or do what alot of other people do and move out of the area.... so it eventually becomes a slum


----------



## Brad Sallows

Seconded. "I'm moving on.  You caught it, you clean it."


----------



## Halifax Tar

daftandbarmy said:


> Or do what alot of other people do and move out of the area.... so it eventually becomes a slum



It is a slum... I swear Fairview is the only district of Halifax that didn't gentrify in the last 20 years.  We used to have an HA clubhouse that kept the garbage cleaned up.  The police raided them and shut them down in 2001 or 2002.

Its my wifes childhood neighborhood... She's dug in deeper than a tic... She's the VP of the school, knows everyone... all the kids... ect ect 

I thought I had her convinced to finally pop smoke... I was wrong...


----------



## brihard

medicineman said:


> Suggestion - gather/keep as much evidence of what's going on as you can.  Look up your provincial Mental Health Act for what "Forms" apply to private citizens requesting examination by a physician and swear the application before a magistrate - if they feel it's legit, a warrant will be issued for detention under the MHA and the person would be taken to an ER for examination +/- referral for formal  psychiatric examination/hold.  If the person is very fucked up, especially not looking after themselves and becoming a potential threat to others around, it may get them the help they need.
> 
> Example - S10(1) Manitoba Mental Health Act, which would lead to a Form 2 here.  C.C.S.M. c. M110


Good advice. Any provincial mental health act that I’ve looked at has similar provisions. You can bring information to a Justice of the Peace, and, if the JO is satisfied that a person, due to mental illness, is a real risk to themselves or others, can authorize police to apprehend them for examination.

‘Crazy neighbour’ calls are some of the most frustrating, because yeah, often it’s short of being something we can effectively act on.

Regarding self defense, the law does allow it, including reasonable force. See s. 34 Criminal Code. Same for defense of property under S. 35. But, ‘reasonable force’ is meaningful. You pull a gun on someone for an attempt to steal property, you’ve now escalated from property crime to threat of death or grievous bodily harm.

Citizen’s arrest is s. 494. You can arrest someone found committing an indictable offense; I won’t parse what indictable means, but any crime of violence to a person, or a mischief (damaging property) or theft in progress will meet that. Again, Force used must be reasonable.

Point a gun at someone for stealing something: no. Tackle and restrain someone committing assault or smashing something up, yes.

If you feel in danger to the point where you access a weapon to defend yourself, you must be able to reasonably articulate why you fear death or similar injury. We don’t have ‘stand your ground’ laws; if you can reasonably retreat to safety, you’re at less legal risk.

But, if you’re genuinely in serious danger and don’t have a reasonable way out in the totality of the circumstances, the law absolutely does allow you to use reasonably necessary force. I think we’ve seen crown and police make progress in their understanding of this in recent years since the Ian Thompson case.


----------



## Halifax Tar

brihard said:


> Good advice. Any provincial mental health act that I’ve looked at has similar provisions. You can bring information to a Justice of the Peace, and, if the JO is satisfied that a person, due to mental illness, is a real risk to themselves or others, can authorize police to apprehend them for examination.
> 
> ‘Crazy neighbour’ calls are some of the most frustrating, because yeah, often it’s short of being something we can effectively act on.
> 
> Regarding self defense, the law does allow it, including reasonable force. See s. 34 Criminal Code. Same for defense of property under S. 35. But, ‘reasonable force’ is meaningful. You pull a gun on someone for an attempt to steal property, you’ve now escalated from property crime to threat of death or grievous bodily harm.
> 
> Citizen’s arrest is s. 494. You can arrest someone found committing an indictable offense; I won’t parse what indictable means, but any crime of violence to a person, or a mischief (damaging property) or theft in progress will meet that. Again, Force used must be reasonable.
> 
> Point a gun at someone for stealing something: no. Tackle and restrain someone committing assault or smashing something up, yes.
> 
> If you feel in danger to the point where you access a weapon to defend yourself, you must be able to reasonably articulate why you fear death or similar injury. We don’t have ‘stand your ground’ laws; if you can reasonably retreat to safety, you’re at less legal risk.
> 
> But, if you’re genuinely in serious danger and don’t have a reasonable way out in the totality of the circumstances, the law absolutely does allow you to use reasonably necessary force. I think we’ve seen crown and police make progress in their understanding of this in recent years since the Ian Thompson case.



Excellent input thank you! 

I really cant say how much I have appreciated the support HRP has given my family.

Regarding self defense, how does this encompass pets ?  I assume it doesn't cover them at all. 

I have plans.  Take what ever you like downstairs or in the basement, I'm insured, but make a move up my stairs towards my family and the plot will thicken dramatically.


----------



## Booter

Halifax Tar said:


> Thanks for the advice, we will definitely look into that.


It’s a very high threshold. And doesn’t cover crazy- annoying and yelling. Needs to be associated to substantial likelihood that the person will eventually cause themselves significant harm or someone else.

I would be surprised if the circumstances warranted it and the officer you’re dealing with didn’t suggest it.

I assisted a family with one a few weeks ago- of course the person wasn’t even in custody for two hours but that’s the health care system.

Edit- I just looked at nova scotias it’s a little more vague which is in your favour. Maybe you aren’t in Nova Scotia and I’m right out of ‘er


----------



## brihard

Halifax Tar said:


> Excellent input thank you!
> 
> I really cant say how much I have appreciated the support HRP has given my family.
> 
> Regarding self defense, how does this encompass pets ?  I assume it doesn't cover them at all.
> 
> I have plans.  Take what ever you like downstairs or in the basement, I'm insured, but make a move up my stairs towards my family and the plot will thicken dramatically.


Pets would be defense of property. You definitely can’t pull a gun in someone for threatening your dog, for instance.

‘Fortress upstairs’ isn’t a terrible idea. And if someone’s in the house, obviously call police immediately if you’re able (tough to justify not doing so), and call out to an intruder that police are on the way and that you’re armed and will defend yourself. You’re creating a fact set that puts you in the position of having been reasonable, restrained, and having used force only as a last reasonable resort.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Booter said:


> It’s a very high threshold. And doesn’t cover crazy- annoying and yelling. Needs to be associated to substantial likelihood that the person will eventually cause themselves significant harm or someone else.
> 
> I would be surprised if the circumstances warranted it and the officer you’re dealing with didn’t suggest it.
> 
> I assisted a family with one a few weeks ago- of course the person wasn’t even in custody for two hours but that’s the health care system.
> 
> Edit- I just looked at nova scotias it’s a little more vague which is in your favour. Maybe you aren’t in Nova Scotia and I’m right out of ‘er



Yup I am in NS. 

Honestly at this point I worry any further action on our part will escalate him.  Like in your scenario, he simply returns home and who knows what happens.  We are going to pretend like its a vacant lot beside us and continue to report the erratic and bizarre behavior.

I really don't want disclose an specifics but he's highly conspiratorial and to sum up believes we (My family) are trying to force recruit him into the free masons.  This has lead very strange happenings, construction and conversations.  That has the whole neighborhood on edge.  We arent the only ones. 



brihard said:


> Pets would be defense of property. You definitely can’t pull a gun in someone for threatening your dog, for instance.
> 
> ‘Fortress upstairs’ isn’t a terrible idea. And if someone’s in the house, obviously call police immediately if you’re able (tough to justify not doing so), and call out to an intruder that police are on the way and that you’re armed and will defend yourself. You’re creating a fact set that puts you in the position of having been reasonable, restrained, and having used force only as a last reasonable resort.



Again, thank you very much.


----------



## medicineman

Halifax Tar said:


> I really don't want disclose an specifics but he's highly conspiratorial and to sum up believes we (My family) are trying to force recruit him into the free masons.  This has lead very strange happenings, construction and conversations.  That has the whole neighborhood on edge.  We arent the only ones.


Sounds like a bit of a fixed delusional disorder...or a very cunning, run of the mill, asshole trying to "persuade" people to leave.


----------



## Booter

That’s very close to the avenue I’d be taking with him as well. I would be watching for any increase in frequency or intensity of “outbursts”. And I’d report it as necessary- but pulling the trigger on MORE formal interactions isn’t necessarily good advice. 

They won’t hold him- and youll be the object of their fixation. Beyond what you are now. 

Have contingency plans and go about life as best you can. Conspiratorial fixation isn’t going to get them apprehended.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Point a gun at someone for stealing something: no.



When I worked part-time at Brinks, the carrying permit said: "For protection of life."

Ontario paramedic guidelines go into detail about ( Ontario ) Mental Health Act transport,



> The following persons may be transported without consent, subject to the provisions of the Mental Health Act (Ontario) (Note: this list is not exhaustive, please refer to the Mental Health Act for further details): o The subject of an application for assessment signed by a physician under subsection 15(1) or 15(1.1) of the Mental Health Act (Ontario) (Form 1) o The subject of an order for examination signed by a Justice of the Peace under subsection 16(1) of the Mental Health Act (Form 2); and o A person taken into custody by a police officer under subsection 17 of the Mental Health Act (Ontario); and o A patient detained in a psychiatric facility under a certificate of involuntary admission under subsection 20(4) of the Mental Health Act (Ontario) (Form 3) or a certificate of renewal (Form 4)





> Immobilize the patient’s limbs and head in one coordinated effort. Grasp each limb at the main joint and between the main joint and the distal joint, e.g. one hand on the elbow, the other on the forearm. • Place the patient in a supine “spread eagle” position or in the left lateral position. • Restrain extremities as follows: o Secure one arm above the head and the other to the stretcher at waist level, or secure both hands to one side of the stretcher. o Elevate the head of the stretcher to protect the airway and to allow the paramedic greater visibility. o Secure the feet. o Ensure that the limbs are secured to the main frame of the stretcher, not to the stretcher side rails. • If the patient is spitting, consider use of a surgical mask on the patient.





> not transport a patient in the prone position;



We used to carry Strait ( correct spelling ) jackets and padded leather body harnesses. Not sure if they still do.


----------



## brihard

Booter said:


> That’s very close to the avenue I’d be taking with him as well. I would be watching for any increase in frequency or intensity of “outbursts”. And I’d report it as necessary- but pulling the trigger on MORE formal interactions isn’t necessarily good advice.
> 
> They won’t hold him- and youll be the object of their fixation. Beyond what you are now.
> 
> Have contingency plans and go about life as best you can. Conspiratorial fixation isn’t going to get them apprehended.


Agreed. Don’t move officially til there’s enough to make it really count. People don’t get held in secure psych for being crazy or delusional, but because they’re tangibly and articulably dangerous.


----------



## Brad Sallows

A problem with tolerating low-level risks is that sometimes the threshold for severe correction is realized only after the risk has manifested.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> ‘Fortress upstairs’ isn’t a terrible idea.



There are second floor fire escape ladders.

I guess they could be used for non-fire emergency egress.

Yes, it sounds sort of cowardly.

I read some houses even have "panic" rooms.









						Safe room - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## medicineman

Have rewritten this a few times - I've had a few negative experiences with police and the MHA, but only in one place I worked, where it seemed to be a systemic thing.  I suspect it was due to not wanting to tie people up in the ED babysitting without a piece of paper saying they needed to be there...though it was always stated as "we don't want to violate someone's civil rights without due cause".  I had 2 separate incidents in one day with them where on both counts the constables concerned failed to act under Section 12 - one was a slam dunk - I had a Form 2 issued the next day on them and their psychiatrist, who I'd colluded with over the phone, actually had them Form 4'd later that day prior to the F2 warrant being executed - but the other was a more subtle case that the investigating officers contacted me about as they were driving back to their home town and asked that I visit.  Was not amused, as this person had been hallucinating gangbangers doing an advance to contact/section attack on their home, and they still had firearms in the house their kids hadn't yet removed...thankfully I didn't get shot or shot at when I arrived, alone   .  I had a rather terse discussion that evening with the Cpl i/c after I physically drove that second person to hospital to have them admitted.  I had to go to court the next morning to swear out the Form 2 on the first person...uncompensated and on my day off.  Incidentally, this wasn't my first negative interaction with this detachment of RCMP regarding The Mental Health Act.  Other places I've worked, no issues with the RCMP or Winnipeg Police Service in this regards - in fact had a great outcome with WPS just 2 days ago in this same vein.

$0.02 FWIW, all anecdotal of course.


----------



## Booter

You understand that the requirements for the form 2 aren’t the same threshold as an emergency apprehension then? Just because you have grounds for one doesn’t mean the other is assumed.

Like you’re saying that’ll because you got it the next day that the emergency apprehension should have happened- but they aren’t built that way. I may be misreading it. 

But in a general sense- for an emergency one to work you have to believe if the police leave that person someone will be hurt right away- but the court issued one doesn’t have that urgency required. 

It is very common for the emergency grounds to not be met and have it be possible to get the form issued another way.

Maybe I am misreading this- if so I apologize


----------



## Booter

Brad Sallows said:


> A problem with tolerating low-level risks is that sometimes the threshold for severe correction is realized only after the risk has manifested.


System doesn’t agree with you even if most emergency and health workers may agree with you.


----------



## Booter

Here is the police power in Manitoba-

Peace officer's power to take into custody

12(1)

A _peace officer may take a person into custody and then promptly to a place to be examined involuntarily by a physician if

(a) the peace officer believes on reasonable grounds that the person

(i) has threatened or attempted to cause bodily harm to himself or herself, 

(ii) has behaved violently towards another person or caused another person to fear bodily harm from him or her, or

(iii) has shown a lack of competence to care for himself or herself; 

(b) the peace officer is of the opinion that the person is apparently suffering from a mental disorder of a nature that will likely result in serious harm to the person or to another person, or in the person's substantial mental or physical deterioration; and

(*c) the urgency of the situation does not allow for an order for an examination under section 11.*_

Section 11 is the involuntary application to a justice. It is the way these situations are supposed to be resolved- unless there is a present real danger at that moment.

_Order for an involuntary medical examination

11(1)

After considering an application made under section 10 and the evidence of any witnesses, the justice may issue an order that the person named in it be examined involuntarily by a physician, if the justice believes on reasonable grounds that the person

(a) is apparently suffering from a mental disorder;

(b) because of the mental disorder, is likely to cause serious harm to himself or herself or to another person, or to suffer substantial mental or physical deterioration;

(c) needs a medical examination to determine whether he or she should undergo a psychiatric assessment; and

(d) refuses to be medically examined.

Order to take into custody

11(2)

An order under this section

(a)  may be directed to an individual peace officer or to all peace officers of the area in which the justice has jurisdiction; and

(b) is authority for a peace officer to take the person named in the order into custody as soon as possible, and then promptly to a place where the person may be detained and examined involuntarily by a physician._

Further to this- the application is supposed to be a person with personal knowledge such as a friend or family member- it’s not the police that apply.

Your experience is very odd to me Medicine- I’ve never sent anyone to a house on my behalf. I’ve taken doctors to do house visits when we ran out of options,

Calling someone and sending them there as I travel home is bloody weird. If my people did that to you I’d snap my crayons. Like crayons everywhere. It’s not acceptable


----------



## medicineman

I didn't go in to the office shooting from the hip - I re-read the act and in the Form 2 case, 12(1)(a)(iii) and (b) were applicable to even a casual observer, as were the accommodations they were renting...the main reason police were called was behaviour and the state of their motel room.


Booter said:


> Your experience is very odd to me Medicine- I’ve never sent anyone to a house on my behalf. I’ve taken doctors to do house visits when we ran out of options,
> 
> Calling someone and sending them there as I travel home is bloody weird. If my people did that to you I’d snap my crayons. Like crayons everywhere. It’s not acceptable


You don't need to tell me twice...I honestly wish this wasn't BS or exaggeration, it was a weird day, even by standards, and even with the black cloud that seems to follow and mock me for some reason.  And like I said - only that detachment.  Not sure if things have changed since I left there, I do know that in the other place I've worked prior to Winnipeg, never this sort of problem and were always helpful and sometimes life/limb saving. 

I'd only hope that you don't snap your copper crayons rather than re-educate them - sometimes it's a learned behaviour from previous leadership that needs unlearning, though bone idleness or even burnout are possibilities...such as I've had to do with subordinates (and had done to me) in my previous life.  

Regards and thanks for your side.


----------



## mariomike

Usually, the call originator would be waiting on scene, maybe with the patient, maybe not, to hand you the Form 1.

The patient hopped on the stretcher. Or, better yet, walked.  If they hesitated, haul out the Strait jacket under the stretcher mattress,  and inform them you would have to call for a police officer to come along for the ride.

They usually hopped on when they saw, and heard, that. Most were familiar with the drill.

That was Ontario. Not sure about Nova Scotia or Manitoba.


----------



## GK .Dundas

medicineman said:


> Have rewritten this a few times - I've had a few negative experiences with police and the MHA, but only in one place I worked, where it seemed to be a systemic thing.  I suspect it was due to not wanting to tie people up in the ED babysitting without a piece of paper saying they needed to be there...though it was always stated as "we don't want to violate someone's civil rights without due cause".  I had 2 separate incidents in one day with them where on both counts the constables concerned failed to act under Section 12 - one was a slam dunk - I had a Form 2 issued the next day on them and their psychiatrist, who I'd colluded with over the phone, actually had them Form 4'd later that day prior to the F2 warrant being executed - but the other was a more subtle case that the investigating officers contacted me about as they were driving back to their home town and asked that I visit.  Was not amused, as this person had been hallucinating gangbangers doing an advance to contact/section attack on their home, and they still had firearms in the house their kids hadn't yet removed...thankfully I didn't get shot or shot at when I arrived, alone   .  I had a rather terse discussion that evening with the Cpl i/c after I physically drove that second person to hospital to have them admitted.  I had to go to court the next morning to swear out the Form 2 on the first person...uncompensated and on my day off.  Incidentally, this wasn't my first negative interaction with this detachment of RCMP regarding The Mental Health Act.  Other places I've worked, no issues with the RCMP or Winnipeg Police Service in this regards - in fact had a great outcome with WPS just 2 days ago in this same vein.
> 
> $0.02 FWIW, all anecdotal of course.


I am starting to wonder if we've run into each other I am literally the first person you run into at HSC Pysch .
Three days a week anyway. I' m the moustached blimp in the Garda uniform.


----------



## medicineman

GK .Dundas said:


> I am starting to wonder if we've run into each other I am literally the first person you run into at HSC Pysch .
> Three days a week anyway. I' m the moustached blimp in the Garda uniform


Fraid not - work at Grace in the ED.  I did do my psych rotation at HSC in Aug 2007 though...when the interview rooms were right in the Adult ED waiting room...where everyone got front row seats to the meltdowns upon involuntary admission.


----------



## GK .Dundas

I worked in the Grace did a fair bit of time sitting outside the seclusion rooms in Emergency.


----------



## lenaitch

Booter said:


> the person wasn’t even in custody for two hours but that’s the health care system.


Yup.  When we used to escort subjects from the remotes in N/W Ontario to the psych facilities in the city, if we lingered (well, because we were in the big city for a night), the subject often beat us back to town via a subsidized flight or bus ticket.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Oh good, yet another study 

Esquimalt hires consultants to investigate alternatives to VicPD​
Esquimalt has complained for years that it is getting a raw deal under the shared policing agreement with Victoria, which expires at the end of next year.









						Esquimalt hires consultants to investigate alternatives to VicPD
					

Esquimalt has complained for years that it is getting a raw deal under the shared policing agreement with Victoria, which expires at the end of next year.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## SeaKingTacco

daftandbarmy said:


> Oh good, yet another study
> 
> Esquimalt hires consultants to investigate alternatives to VicPD​
> Esquimalt has complained for years that it is getting a raw deal under the shared policing agreement with Victoria, which expires at the end of next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Esquimalt hires consultants to investigate alternatives to VicPD
> 
> 
> Esquimalt has complained for years that it is getting a raw deal under the shared policing agreement with Victoria, which expires at the end of next year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


Maybe they can bring in the RCMP…


----------



## daftandbarmy

SeaKingTacco said:


> Maybe they can bring in the RCMP…


----------



## SeaKingTacco

daftandbarmy said:


>


Not bad, eh?


----------



## CBH99

Brad Sallows said:


> There aren't many assholes; there are many citizens.  If citizens start taking matters into their own hands, proper enforcement becomes practically impossible.  So it is necessary to step very hard on outbreaks of citizens taking matters into their own hands.


I agree with that post as it pertains to vigilantism.  I don’t agree with it in terms of self defense.  


For example - If I’m some creep & I try to jump a girl who is out for a jog, and she ends up kicking my ass…good.  Got what I deserved.  

There’s no way she should get charged for protecting herself.  She shouldn’t even have to worry about that.

Now if I take matters into my own hands & decide to go seek him out so I can cripple him or kill him, either to prevent anyone else from being attacked OR to get some sort of revenge/vengeance…that’s where I agree with your post.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> Yup.  When we used to escort subjects from the remotes in N/W Ontario to the psych facilities in the city, if we lingered (well, because we were in the big city for a night), the subject often beat us back to town via a subsidized flight or bus ticket.



That sounds like a great road trip!

We'd probably run his/her a$$ all the way down. Take our time heading north, and spending the expense $ on the way.

Shame we were already in the asphalt jungle. Our trips were pretty short.

Dead-heading back home empty, would you be subject to emergency calls? It's not easy being being in an area you are not familiar with, and getting a call. Also, as you would know, there was a time when we only had maps. No GPS.

We saw some out-of-town crews in the city getting pretty flustered when they were handed a 9-1-1 call. No fault of theirs, as they were unfamiliar with the city. As much as we were outside of it.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> Dead-heading back home empty, would you be subject to emergency calls? It's not easy being being in an area you are not familiar with, and getting a call. Also, as you would know, there was a time when we only had maps. No GPS.
> 
> We saw some out-of-town crews in the city getting pretty flustered when they were handed a 9-1-1 call. No fault of theirs, as they were unfamiliar with the city. As much as we were outside of it.


Under the old decentralized radio system, we would clear enroute to X city but only they would know that, not the destination dispatchers.  If we were flying it would be moot.  We were either in our a/c or a charter and local members meeting us at the airport.  Of course, if you driving and overheard or came across something you would be expected to offer your services.  I don't have a clue how they do it now.

I live near an Ontario forensic health facility and it's not uncommon to see police and occasionally EMS from all over the place.  Road trip!


----------



## NavyShooter

Contract with DND to hire the Military Police...?  

As for dangerous neighbour...mine decided to assault a UPS truck with a log during the summer.  Cops came to the door looking for the driver of the "Blue Honda CRV"...and because I had a silver one in the driveway, they stopped here first.  I pointed them next door.

Correct response to a police officer in the case you have to protect yourself should be something along the lines of:

"Officer, I feared for my life.  I need to speak to my lawyer.  I'll only give a statement after speaking with my lawyer."

Or words similar to that...BriHard can probably shoot down that suggestion, but that's what a lawyer told me to say if the worst case ever happened and I had to protect myself.

NS


----------



## brihard

NavyShooter said:


> Contract with DND to hire the Military Police...?
> 
> As for dangerous neighbour...mine decided to assault a UPS truck with a log during the summer.  Cops came to the door looking for the driver of the "Blue Honda CRV"...and because I had a silver one in the driveway, they stopped here first.  I pointed them next door.
> 
> Correct response to a police officer in the case you have to protect yourself should be something along the lines of:
> 
> "Officer, I feared for my life.  I need to speak to my lawyer.  I'll only give a statement after speaking with my lawyer."
> 
> Or words similar to that...BriHard can probably shoot down that suggestion, but that's what a lawyer told me to say if the worst case ever happened and I had to protect myself.
> 
> NS


No, I’m not gonna shoot that down. Lawyering up in such a situation is very wise. Depending on force used you may expect to potentially end up in custody if, in the absence of your statement, they believe an offence may have been committed. The situation’s gonna suck no matter what. Might as well protect yourself.

If I have to use serious force on the job and someone is seriously injured or killed as a result, I’m talking to a lawyer before I provide any statement. Goose/Gander.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Massad Ayoob councils that if you draw your CCW pistol, you should call 911 asap. Crooks have a tendency to call 911 and say "Crazy man pointed a gun at me". So the first person to call 911 generally gets better treatment from the police, even in a CCW friendly State.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Has Downtown Victoria Already Become A No-Go Zone?









						Cliff’s Call – Friday October 28 2022
					

Image: Loneaxiom, CC BY-SA 4.0 , via Wikimedia Commons




					www.theq.fm


----------



## RedFive

SeaKingTacco said:


> Maybe they can bring in the RCMP…


I hear the City of Surrey has a spare Police force they're not using...


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:


> Has Downtown Victoria Already Become A No-Go Zone?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cliff’s Call – Friday October 28 2022
> 
> 
> Image: Loneaxiom, CC BY-SA 4.0 , via Wikimedia Commons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theq.fm


If the authorities fail to act, people will eventually take matters into their own hands.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Humphrey Bogart said:


> If the authorities fail to act, people will eventually take matters into their own hands.



I suspect in Canada it will be a slow flash to bang.  But it will happen.


----------



## OldSolduer

Halifax Tar said:


> I suspect in Canada it will be a slow flash to bang.  But it will happen.


Its happened in a few cases where an ordinary citizen has acted - however they usually end up being arrested by police and vilified by the Crown attorneys.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

OldSolduer said:


> Its happened in a few cases where an ordinary citizen has acted - however they usually end up being arrested by police and vilified by the Crown attorneys.


Sounds about right 😄


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, at the cenotaph in Victoria today:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1591147898779369473


----------



## CBH99

OldSolduer said:


> Its happened in a few cases where an ordinary citizen has acted - however they usually end up being arrested by police and vilified by the Crown attorneys.


I always get a chuckle out of how Crown Prosecutors present cases in court.   

Some of them are quite logical & straightforward, and treat it for what it is.  Lots of time for folks like that.  

Others act like they are prosecuting the crime of the century and sensationalize the hell out of it.  

All the right words & phrases used to portray the accused as the most despicable piece of human trash who has ever existed…only to have it turn out to be something so petty it’s a waste of the court’s time.  


Question - if the act of self defence meets the standards within the criminal code, can someone even be charged?


----------



## Eaglelord17

CBH99 said:


> I always get a chuckle out of how Crown Prosecutors present cases in court.
> 
> Some of them are quite logical & straightforward, and treat it for what it is.  Lots of time for folks like that.
> 
> Others act like they are prosecuting the crime of the century and sensationalize the hell out of it.
> 
> All the right words & phrases used to portray the accused as the most despicable piece of human trash who has ever existed…only to have it turn out to be something so petty it’s a waste of the court’s time.
> 
> 
> Question - if the act of self defence meets the standards within the criminal code, can someone even be charged?


You can always be charged. Even when it is a very clear cut case. Ask Ian Thompson how fair our justice system is. 

Its called punishment by process, where even if your legally in the right they still make you pay.


----------



## daftandbarmy

More details on the 'I can't understand why no one butt stroked him' incident ;(


As the Victoria Arion Male Choir sang In Flanders Fields, a man broke through the crowd part way through the ceremony and paced before the cenotaph yelling. He called for an end to Russia’s war on Ukraine, pulling out of NATO and “you can stand up for Africa … you show up every year for this bull—— but you don’t stop the wars.”

Dignitaries, soldiers, veterans and the crowd remained still and the choir continued throughout. He then walked off yelling profanities and was peacefully escorted away by Victoria police.

Victoria Police Chief Del Manak said he was glad police were on the scene to escort the individual away, allowing the remainder of the ceremony to continue.









						Large crowd returns for Remembrance Day ceremony at legislature; brief disruption by yelling man
					

The Remembrance Day ceremony at the cenotaph on the grounds of the B.C. legislature once again saw large crowds after two years of smaller gatherings because of the pandemic.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## daftandbarmy

The former Mayor of View Royal is moving his store out of Victoria... it's a growing trend:

Home since ‘55, Greggs Furniture and Upholstery pondering move out of Victoria​ 
David Screech said an increasing amount of concerning incidents driving possible move


Greggs Furniture and Upholstery has called The City of Victoria home for more than 70 years, but as incidents of staff being attacked and property being stolen and damaged continue to increase, owner David Screech is starting to consider moving elsewhere in the region.

While the Government Street location has always had its encounters with graffiti, broken windows, and people setting up temporary shelters on the property, Screech said things have been escalating rapidly.

On Tuesday (Nov. 22) morning for example, Screech was alone in the showroom when he said a man came in and started yelling at him to clean the building’s windows, punching them as he left. On Monday, a fire pit was found set up next to the building, though fortunately not lit, and recently the catalytic converter was stolen off their delivery truck and the mirrors smashed, together totaling nearly $1,800 in damages.

Nearly every day, he said staff has to deal with more mundane issues like cleaning up garbage – sometimes including human waste – from the property, and removing people sleeping in the alcove in front of the store’s staff entrance.

But the really concerning incident came in October when a staff member was threatened at knifepoint after their car was broken into.

“It’s certainly unsettling for the staff members … and so by extension it has to become difficult for me because the staff are the lifeblood of the business,” said Screech. “What I’ve been thinking about more and more recently is how many people are not coming to our store now because of what is going on in this neighbourhood.”

Beyond the additional costs the business has had to cover for repairs and enhanced security measures like better exterior lighting, Screech said the incidents are also scaring off customers who don’t want to risk encountering any of these incidents themselves, especially seniors who often travel to the store by bus, requiring some walking in the neighbourhood.

Screech said he can’t describe the situation as anything other than “lawlessness,” driven by increased numbers of people living on the streets in the area. He said police do come when called, but they are only able to respond after the incident has been resolved, something he is understanding of given how busy police are in the region.










						Home since ‘55, Greggs Furniture and Upholstery pondering move out of Victoria - Saanich News
					

David Screech said an increasing amount of concerning incidents driving possible move




					www.saanichnews.com


----------



## Halifax Tar

When does correction to all this happen ?  What's the breaking point ?


----------



## brihard

The province has introduced a suite of fairly modest reforms. I’m still trying to find out what they mean by their proposed changed approach to bail.









						Premier Eby takes action to keep people, communities safe | BC Gov News
					

The Province is making changes to help keep British Columbians safe, launching a new Safer Communities Action Plan with immediate steps that will strengthen enforcement to keep those who commit repeat violent offences off our streets, and strengthen services to build safe, healthy communities...



					news.gov.bc.ca


----------



## Good2Golf

> “Being compassionate, concerned and taking action on mental-health and addiction issues does not mean that we have to accept repeated criminal behaviour or violence,” said Premier David Eby. “Everyone deserves to feel safe in their community. We are making changes to bring key groups together to keep people and communities safe – ensuring those who commit violent acts face consequences, and creating as many opportunities as possible for them to address mental-health and addiction issues to break the cycle of a life in and out of jail.”




To quote numerous police departments’ motto: “Deeds Speak”

I’ll be looking for material changes in lotus land before I consider entertaining my wife’s desire to return to her home town…or at least modify the landing zone up into Saanich or somewhere out of the main Victoria  crap zone.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good2Golf said:


> View attachment 75114
> 
> To quote numerous police departments’ motto: “Deeds Speak”
> 
> I’ll be looking for material changes in lotus land before I consider entertaining my wife’s desire to return to her home town…or at least modify the landing zone up into Saanich or somewhere out of the main Victoria  crap zone.



Sidney has a nice Legion with excellent scooter access


----------



## SeaKingTacco

daftandbarmy said:


> Sidney has a nice Legion with excellent scooter access


Sidney Legion closed it’s physical doors years ago.

I hear the ANAF is a rocking place….


----------



## Quirky

Halifax Tar said:


> When does correction to all this happen ?  What's the breaking point ?



Stop sending social services to OD calls. The problem will correct itself.


----------



## daftandbarmy

SeaKingTacco said:


> Sidney Legion closed it’s physical doors years ago.
> 
> I hear the ANAF is a rocking place….



I had no idea... I assumed that they'd have a big following given the all the retired military out there.


----------



## Brad Sallows

As near as I can interpret, the plan is to have a lot more "responders" and temporary holding points so that people are being moved off the street and back onto it so fast and so often that they have no time to get up to any trouble.


----------



## ArmyRick

Have no fear for Victoria public safety. Parliament is slapping more guns (semi-auto center fire) to the guns ban list on Bill C21. That will sort everything out.


----------



## CBH99

Quirky said:


> Stop sending social services to OD calls. The problem will correct itself.


 I hate to sound crass, but  I totally agree.

On the one hand we all want a society that helps people when they fall down.  

We all fall down at some points in our lives, some harder than others, but we all do...


But there comes a point where we, as a society, have gone too far in one direction or another - and there does need to be a correction.

Freeing up EMS resources by not responding to every single OD call would ease the immense burden EMS currently faces, it would also free up room & lessen waiting times in hospital Emergency Departments that are stretched to their limit across the country, and the problem would mostly correct itself in fairly short order.

Does that sound harsh or cruel? Yeah, it does.  

But there aren't a lot of 'clean answers' to some of societies long term problems that don't require us to ask ourselves "Where do we as a society have to draw the line & force people to be accountable for their own choices?"

A child that accidentally consumes something and is overdosing isn't the same thing as an adult who consumes something deliberately & is on their 3rd OD in 3 months.

( When I worked in EMS that was a choice I personally had to make, as our dispatch system at the time had me mapped almost dead center of 2 CFS, both code.  Instinctively I chose the CFS involving the kid.)


----------



## CBH99

ArmyRick said:


> Have no fear for Victoria public safety. Parliament is slapping more guns (semi-auto center fire) to the guns ban list on Bill C21. That will sort everything out.


Thank Goodness!

I knew the solution to knife crime & an abundance of street drugs was for big government to target hunters & farmers...

My fear for public safety has been abated 🥵🙏


----------



## lenaitch

CBH99 said:


> I hate to sound crass, but  I totally agree.
> 
> On the one hand we all want a society that helps people when they fall down.
> 
> We all fall down at some points in our lives, some harder than others, but we all do...
> 
> 
> But there comes a point where we, as a society, have gone too far in one direction or another - and there does need to be a correction.
> 
> Freeing up EMS resources by not responding to every single OD call would ease the immense burden EMS currently faces, it would also free up room & lessen waiting times in hospital Emergency Departments that are stretched to their limit across the country, and the problem would mostly correct itself in fairly short order.
> 
> Does that sound harsh or cruel? Yeah, it does.
> 
> But there aren't a lot of 'clean answers' to some of societies long term problems that don't require us to ask ourselves "Where do we as a society have to draw the line & force people to be accountable for their own choices?"
> 
> A child that accidentally consumes something and is overdosing isn't the same thing as an adult who consumes something deliberately & is on their 3rd OD in 3 months.
> 
> ( When I worked in EMS that was a choice I personally had to make, as our dispatch system at the time had me mapped almost dead center of 2 CFS, both code.  Instinctively I chose the CFS involving the kid.)


Not a bad system, so long as you can differentiate between someone who has stumbled and fallen for the first time (or inadvertently) and the frequent fliers.


----------



## Brad Sallows

It's not harsh or cruel.  The people setting policy are basically turning a blind eye right now to everyone who isn't getting a timely diagnosis or treatment of a life-threatening illness.  They're arguing over who pays and devising ways to headhunt from other countries (which don't need their medical practitioners?), while finding money for all sorts of other things they'd rather do.


----------



## Quirky

lenaitch said:


> Not a bad system, so long as you can differentiate between someone who has stumbled and fallen for the first time (or inadvertently) and the frequent fliers.



Free unlimited consumption sites, with the knowing that healthcare won’t be there to save you, should thin out the herd quickly. You can’t save everyone, the wounded and sick members of the zebra herds get eaten by the lions.


----------



## RedFive

CBH99 said:


> A child that accidentally consumes something and is overdosing isn't the same thing as an adult who consumes something deliberately & is on their 3rd OD in 3 months.


Three times in three months?

I responded to the same guy overdosing three times in a day, once. The first two times he came up fighting and we let him go, refusing medical care. The third, we fought back long and hard and took him by force to the hospital.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Freeing up EMS resources by not responding to every single OD call would ease the immense burden EMS currently faces,



As long as they walk, or refuse service.

What's a C F S ?


----------



## Halifax Tar

RedFive said:


> Three times in three months?
> 
> I responded to the same guy overdosing three times in a day, once. The first two times he came up fighting and we let him go, refusing medical care. The third, we fought back long and hard and took him by force to the hospital.



Maybe we need to stop caring for adults who habitually stop caring about themselves.


----------



## mariomike

RedFive said:


> took him by force to the hospital.



Bet the nurses loved you for that.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

lenaitch said:


> Not a bad system, so long as you can differentiate between someone who has stumbled and fallen for the first time (or inadvertently) and the frequent fliers.


A clue is when the ambulance arrives and they address the patient on a first name basis.


----------



## RedFive

mariomike said:


> Bet the nurses loved you for that.


We assisted them in five point restraining this person to the bed then watched as they put him in a k-hole. I don't think he was much trouble after that.


----------



## Quirky

Halifax Tar said:


> Maybe we need to stop caring for adults who habitually stop caring about themselves.


Can we apply this to all facets of society and not just ODs?


----------



## GK .Dundas

Knew one drunk  when I worked the Air Canada building who according to the Paramedics held the record in Winnipeg for Ambulance rides in year. He claimed on the order of 400.
And he'd try and assault the ER staff on arrival.


----------



## quadrapiper

lenaitch said:


> Not a bad system, so long as you can differentiate between someone who has stumbled and fallen for the first time (or inadvertently) and the frequent fliers.


And could we please get a robust residential mental-health system back in play?

Short form: take measures to declutter the downtown population, provide "outs" of one kind or another for marginal/striving/harmless individuals, target actively harmful/antisocial behaviours, clear the white picket fence conformists and moralists out of policy, and then deal with the hard core of determinedly problem individuals that're left over.

Long form, without imagining this addresses everything, in no particular order, coming from someone who lives just north of and works in downtown Victoria and would really like the city of even ten years ago back, please...

Legalize sex work, and then don't regulate it into inaccessibility and unaffordability.
*More accessible housing. *Get more rental spaces into the market, including by overriding municipal secondary suite bans and so on, in the same manner as the recent moves on missing middle and strata rentals.
*Transit. *Reinvest in bus and rail, including lowering fares, and structure it to ensure that nobody _needs _a car in (say) the 13 municipalities to get from where the cheap housing is to where the jobs are.
*Drugs. *Legalize and encourage innovation in mind alterants People will always want to get high/chill/tripped out, let's accept that and strip out the toxic supply and criminal issues, with the potential for someone coming up with "cleaner" options to provide the same outcome.
*Drug enforcement. *Until then, forget drug enforcement. File it at the bottom of the priority list. Go after thieves and other property criminals with all the zeal and resources previously applied to drugs.
*Parks etc. *Come up with something enforceable on approved uses for public spaces, then enforce it.
*Disorder versus unsightliness.*Target misbehaviour versus lifestyle and aesthetics, and make space for non-damaging transients.
*Cost of housing: *_*no it's not an investment.*_Render unenforceable those bylaws and municipal policies built to drive custom to local business, to preserve property values, to ensure conformity in neighbourhoods, or to present a "welcoming" face to people who don't live there (fence and setback restrictions; with the latter, if the goal is to preserve _x _unbuilt land, then make it a percentage-of-lot restriction).
Pull youth off the street and into care, with an option to move far enough away that nobody will know them. Subset: provide indigenous-led care as an opt-in option.


----------



## mariomike

Colin Parkinson said:


> A clue is when the ambulance arrives and they address the patient on a first name basis.



We had one we let ourselves get so attached to my partner started crying when we walked in and, unexpectedly, found her dead. That's not supposed to happen.


----------



## YZT580

Brad Sallows said:


> It's not harsh or cruel.  The people setting policy are basically turning a blind eye right now to everyone who isn't getting a timely diagnosis or treatment of a life-threatening illness.  They're arguing over who pays and devising ways to headhunt from other countries (which don't need their medical practitioners?), while finding money for all sorts of other things they'd rather do.


easy solution.  Just fill in another use for MAID after all, those folks aren't worth saving anyways. (bitter)


----------



## Brad Sallows

No need to be bitter.  Reducing end-of-life medical costs is one of the justifications openly cited to promote suicide.  Once you cross that threshold, the only question is how long away end-of-life ought to be before you start giving people nudges.


----------



## Booter

Brad Sallows said:


> No need to be bitter.  Reducing end-of-life medical costs is one of the justifications openly cited to promote suicide.  Once you cross that threshold, the only question is how long away end-of-life ought to be before you start giving people nudges.


I just went and looked through a couple studies on physician assisted suicide- none mentioned the “openly cited” justification of cost.

Reference? I’ve never seen it that I recall.


----------



## Brad Sallows

CBC.ca.


----------



## mariomike

RedFive said:


> We assisted them in five point restraining this person to the bed then watched as they put him in a k-hole. I don't think he was much trouble after that.


Good night nurse.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Brad Sallows said:


> CBC.ca.


and then use them to make crackers, it's the best way to be green


----------



## CBH99

mariomike said:


> As long as they walk, or refuse service.
> 
> What's a C F S ?


Call For Service

What did/do you guys call them out there?


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Call For Service
> 
> What did/do you guys call them out there?



Out here, we just called them "calls".  



> We assisted them in five point restraining this person to the bed then watched as they put him in a k-hole.



It wasn't in my scope of practice. But, our ACPs use it.

Got to be careful with with that stuff pre-hospital field. I was reading about two paramedics in Colorado indicted for manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide over it.

There was a Civil Rights lawsuit, with the City of Aurora taxpayers paying $15 million to the family.



> A clue is when the ambulance arrives and they address the patient on a first name basis.



I'm thinking of the pensioners and shut-ins. For some, 9-1-1 is their only connection with anybody. Or, their families may call 9-1-1 for wellness checks.

I don't know about Victoria, but my former department offers a "frequent flyer" program,








						How Toronto Paramedics are giving TCH residents 'lots of confidence' about their health
					

To choose the buildings, the organizations used an innovative piece of technology, unique to Ontario, which tracks where the most 911 calls are coming from in the city.  Jessie Lee, a community paramedic and systems engineer, created a frequent caller program for TPS after finding huge swaths of...




					ca.news.yahoo.com


----------



## brihard

I wish someone had been there to find my brother in law in time when he overdosed in Vancouver at the age of 23.

He wasn’t a write off. He had fallen hard but was making some progress, and the family was trying to reconcile some long and ugly stuff. His descent into drug use came in the wake of circumstances anyone would struggle to make it through.

Let’s not forget there are real people at the centre of this. Sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers… they leave real people behind and hurting when they die.


----------



## mariomike

> Just think but for the grace of God
> It would be you instead of him


----------



## CBH99

brihard said:


> I wish someone had been there to find my brother in law in time when he overdosed in Vancouver at the age of 23.
> 
> He wasn’t a write off. He had fallen hard but was making some progress, and the family was trying to reconcile some long and ugly stuff. His descent into drug use came in the wake of circumstances anyone would struggle to make it through.
> 
> Let’s not forget there are real people at the centre of this. Sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers… they leave real people behind and hurting when they die.


Solid reminder of the human factor, something I tend to forget when I read stories of people being attacked or businesses being broken into, by 'those homeless addicts'...

I am sincerely sorry Bri, I was probably a tad bit ignorant & harsh when I painted with a broad brush.  

_________


(Just to clarify, I'm actually not advocating EMS not responding to someone OD'ing.

I'm suggesting that given some individuals' apparent quest to OD (who OD on a regular basis) we should not have EMS resources unavailable for people who need real help periodically, but who aren't OD'ing on a daily or weekly basis.

(If my mom needed an ambulance because she had chest pains, and couldn't get an ambulance because they were busy with various people who OD on a regular basis...I'd be ticked to say the least.  As we all would be, I imagine...

That's why I'm asking the bigger question, the one I feel has no real clean answers, of "Where do we, as a society, draw the line?")


----------



## Quirky

CBH99 said:


> Where do we, as a society, draw the line?")



People love this system of “free” healthcare, even though it’s on the brink of collapse. No politician will make the call of triaging contributing members of society who pay taxes first, over addicts. Everyone is worth saving, but you need to look at it realistically with the limited resources you have. We don’t have the resources and I can’t see that changing in the short or long term with an aging population, while the younger generation just wants to live off free government assistance.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Everyone is worth saving, but some people are worth saving more than others.  The "system" doesn't work without funding, and some people are much greater producers than others.  Keeping them healthy keeps the "system" healthy.


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> I'm suggesting that given some individuals' apparent quest to OD (who OD on a regular basis) we should not have EMS resources unavailable for people who need real help periodically, but who aren't OD'ing on a daily or weekly basis.



I don't know how busy they are out of town, my former department receives over 300,000 "CFS" a year.

( That doesn't include calls to police and fire. )

Call Receivers can hardly ask, "Are you a skell?"


----------



## Quirky

Brad Sallows said:


> Everyone is worth saving, but some people are worth saving more than others.  The "system" doesn't work without funding, and some people are much greater producers than others.  Keeping them healthy keeps the "system" healthy.


I’m tired of funding a system that prioritizes care to addicts and those who decide to live disconnected from society. There isn’t enough money and socialism in the country to help them.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin Parkinson said:


> and then use them to make crackers, it's the best way to be green


----------



## Halifax Tar

daftandbarmy said:


>



I was wondering when this would referenced lol


----------



## daftandbarmy

daftandbarmy said:


>



Sorry... I like that movie a little too much.


----------



## Halifax Tar

daftandbarmy said:


> Sorry... I like that movie a little too much.


 
No apology needed mate.  I'm a tight head prop.  We have the same humor lol


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Sorry... I like that movie a little too much.



Eddy G. never made a bad movie.



> I’m tired of funding a system that prioritizes care to addicts and those who decide to live disconnected from society.



Worth mentioning that they are seldom the call originator. More likely to be a concerned citizen who doesn't even know them.

Toronto taxpayers had to cough up $10 million to the family of a deceased, not for refusing service. But, for simply delaying service.



> The inquest had previously been told that the 911 dispatcher who took the initial call had reported to the paramedic crew that xxxxx “had been drinking,” when the caller actually said he’d fallen over and “it looks like he might be drunk.”


----------



## daftandbarmy

Sauve qui Peut!!

Victoria businesses consider moving amid spiralling random violence​ 
Many store owners and staffs are used to almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.







Ryan Burghardt, owner of Budget Brake and Muffler, shows where a fence around his yard had been cut. Ryan Burghardt was recently charged by a man brandishing scissors and a handful of his own feces.

It wasn’t the first time the owner of Budget Brake and Muffler, at Douglas and Bay streets, has had to ward off attacks and threats or absorb the costs of ongoing thefts and vandalism by an unsheltered population in the downtown core, many of them suffering from drug addiction and severe mental-health issues. And it isn’t going to be the last, Burghardt said.

“It happens all the time around here,” he said.

Vehicles have been damaged, staff have been put in danger and items have been stolen, including a cellphone off the front counter.

“You just wonder if it’s ever going to end,” Burghardt said. “Moving my business out of the downtown core is a weekly thought. Langford is an option, but it’s pretty hard to uproot a 40-year-old business. I already commute from Mill Bay because I’ve moved my family to a safer place to live.”

Burghardt’s nine staff are used to the almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.

A block away on Government Street, David Screech of Gregg’s Furniture is considering moving his business; it has been there for 55 years.









						Victoria businesses consider moving amid spiralling random violence
					

Many store owners and staffs are used to almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## Halifax Tar

daftandbarmy said:


> Sauve qui Peut!!
> 
> Victoria businesses consider moving amid spiralling random violence​
> Many store owners and staffs are used to almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan Burghardt, owner of Budget Brake and Muffler, shows where a fence around his yard had been cut. Ryan Burghardt was recently charged by a man brandishing scissors and a handful of his own feces.
> 
> It wasn’t the first time the owner of Budget Brake and Muffler, at Douglas and Bay streets, has had to ward off attacks and threats or absorb the costs of ongoing thefts and vandalism by an unsheltered population in the downtown core, many of them suffering from drug addiction and severe mental-health issues. And it isn’t going to be the last, Burghardt said.
> 
> “It happens all the time around here,” he said.
> 
> Vehicles have been damaged, staff have been put in danger and items have been stolen, including a cellphone off the front counter.
> 
> “You just wonder if it’s ever going to end,” Burghardt said. “Moving my business out of the downtown core is a weekly thought. Langford is an option, but it’s pretty hard to uproot a 40-year-old business. I already commute from Mill Bay because I’ve moved my family to a safer place to live.”
> 
> Burghardt’s nine staff are used to the almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.
> 
> A block away on Government Street, David Screech of Gregg’s Furniture is considering moving his business; it has been there for 55 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Victoria businesses consider moving amid spiralling random violence
> 
> 
> Many store owners and staffs are used to almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com



Looks like a DND sign in the background.


----------



## GR66

Halifax Tar said:


> Looks like a DND sign in the background.


Bay Street Armoury (The Canadian Scottish Regiment and 5th (BC) Field Regiment).

Might need to rename it "FOB Bay Street" from the sounds of it!


----------



## Grimey

Halifax Tar said:


> Looks like a DND sign in the background.


It is.  Bay St. Armory perimeter fence.  Ah, GR66 beat me to it.


----------



## Quirky

daftandbarmy said:


> Burghardt’s nine staff are used to the almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.



If a guy is coming at me and my family with scissors and feces, pepper spray would be the least of his problems.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

daftandbarmy said:


> Sauve qui Peut!!
> 
> Victoria businesses consider moving amid spiralling random violence​
> Many store owners and staffs are used to almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ryan Burghardt, owner of Budget Brake and Muffler, shows where a fence around his yard had been cut. Ryan Burghardt was recently charged by a man brandishing scissors and a handful of his own feces.
> 
> It wasn’t the first time the owner of Budget Brake and Muffler, at Douglas and Bay streets, has had to ward off attacks and threats or absorb the costs of ongoing thefts and vandalism by an unsheltered population in the downtown core, many of them suffering from drug addiction and severe mental-health issues. And it isn’t going to be the last, Burghardt said.
> 
> “It happens all the time around here,” he said.
> 
> Vehicles have been damaged, staff have been put in danger and items have been stolen, including a cellphone off the front counter.
> 
> “You just wonder if it’s ever going to end,” Burghardt said. “Moving my business out of the downtown core is a weekly thought. Langford is an option, but it’s pretty hard to uproot a 40-year-old business. I already commute from Mill Bay because I’ve moved my family to a safer place to live.”
> 
> Burghardt’s nine staff are used to the almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.
> 
> A block away on Government Street, David Screech of Gregg’s Furniture is considering moving his business; it has been there for 55 years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Victoria businesses consider moving amid spiralling random violence
> 
> 
> Many store owners and staffs are used to almost daily incidents. Some have pepper spray for protection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


"Some have pepper spray for protection."

Isn't that illegal?


----------



## dapaterson

Never know when a bear might wander into your store.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Retired AF Guy said:


> "Some have pepper spray for protection."
> 
> Isn't that illegal?



Whenever I leave pavement around here for a hike etc, I'm usually packing some... viz:

Cougar followed woman in Colwood park, RCMP say​
Mounties in Colwood are praising a 911 call-taker for helping to save a woman who was being followed by a cougar in a local park.
The call came in around 5:40 p.m. Friday, according to West Shore RCMP, who said in a news release that the woman was in Latoria Creek Park in Colwood.

"The woman was out for a run on the stairs in the park when she got to the bottom of the stairs she noticed the cougar several metres from her and immediately called 911," police said in their release.









						Cougar followed woman in Colwood park, RCMP say
					

Mounties in Colwood are praising a 911 call-taker for helping to save a woman who was being followed by a cougar in a local park.




					vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Halifax Tar

daftandbarmy said:


> Whenever I leave pavement around here for a hike etc, I'm usually packing some... viz:
> 
> Cougar followed woman in Colwood park, RCMP say​
> Mounties in Colwood are praising a 911 call-taker for helping to save a woman who was being followed by a cougar in a local park.
> The call came in around 5:40 p.m. Friday, according to West Shore RCMP, who said in a news release that the woman was in Latoria Creek Park in Colwood.
> 
> "The woman was out for a run on the stairs in the park when she got to the bottom of the stairs she noticed the cougar several metres from her and immediately called 911," police said in their release.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cougar followed woman in Colwood park, RCMP say
> 
> 
> Mounties in Colwood are praising a 911 call-taker for helping to save a woman who was being followed by a cougar in a local park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca



Lol gah cougar is such a loaded word any more lol


----------



## torg003

Halifax Tar said:


> Lol gah cougar is such a loaded word any more lol


So you're saying that it wasn't a wild animal, but an older lady hanging around, looking for a younger man?  Some of those kinds of cougars can look scary.


----------



## mariomike

torg003 said:


> Some of those kinds of cougars can look scary.



Not so much around midnight, after a night of drinking and dancing, the lights are down low, and the available pickings are growing slimmer by the minute.   

I guess it's all done online now. 🤷‍♂️


----------



## Brad Sallows

People resorting to questionable/illegal non-lethal means of self-protection is inevitable if they don't relocate.  It's unreasonable to expect people to passively accept damage and risk indefinitely.  Authorities will have to choose whether to clamp down on such infractions or turn a mostly blind eye.  People are going to find ways to mitigate and rout around damage; the question is whether authorities are stupid enough to risk turning a mostly complacent/supportive population against the authorities.  The experiment in switching allegiances-to-authority between right and left continues...


----------



## daftandbarmy




----------



## CBH99

Brad Sallows said:


> People resorting to questionable/illegal non-lethal means of self-protection is inevitable if they don't relocate.  It's unreasonable to expect people to passively accept damage and risk indefinitely.  Authorities will have to choose whether to clamp down on such infractions or turn a mostly blind eye.  People are going to find ways to mitigate and rout around damage; the question is whether authorities are stupid enough to risk turning a mostly complacent/supportive population against the authorities.  The experiment in switching allegiances-to-authority between right and left continues...


Agreed.

People have a right to feel safe where they live or work - they shouldn't have to constantly be looking over their shoulder, or worried they might get beaten up, mugged, carjacking, etc

If the authorities can't offer reasonable enough security that the average citizen can walk down the street without carrying some kind of weapon, then the onus should be on the government to rectify that situation.

There are plenty of great people who can't afford to live in upscale neighborhoods, or even nice middle class suburbs.  

They shouldn't have to worry about walking down the street because of it.


I can't wait until the violent and/or petty crime starts to directly affect those on the fringe who think law enforcement is somehow a bad thing.  

Maybe a common sense middle ground will be agreed on sooner than thought possible once the scumbags start to impact them directly.


----------



## CBH99

Retired AF Guy said:


> "Some have pepper spray for protection."
> 
> Isn't that illegal?


As someone who caught a face full of bear spray 2 years ago, let me testify to its effectiveness...

Holy s**t 🥵


----------



## Grimey

daftandbarmy said:


> Whenever I leave pavement around here for a hike etc, I'm usually packing some... viz:
> 
> Cougar followed woman in Colwood park, RCMP say​
> Mounties in Colwood are praising a 911 call-taker for helping to save a woman who was being followed by a cougar in a local park.
> The call came in around 5:40 p.m. Friday, according to West Shore RCMP, who said in a news release that the woman was in Latoria Creek Park in Colwood.
> 
> "The woman was out for a run on the stairs in the park when she got to the bottom of the stairs she noticed the cougar several metres from her and immediately called 911," police said in their release.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cougar followed woman in Colwood park, RCMP say
> 
> 
> Mounties in Colwood are praising a 911 call-taker for helping to save a woman who was being followed by a cougar in a local park.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca


That happened to me a few weeks back, until her heels got caught in the steps…..

I actually know the area well, walking the dog there a few times a week.  A bear was in the same area last month.  This isn’t exactly the sticks, with suburban sprawl surrounding it and getting denser by the month.  It amazes me that the critters make it that far without getting spotted somewhere else.


----------



## OldSolduer

CBH99 said:


> As someone who caught a face full of bear spray 2 years ago, let me testify to its effectiveness...
> 
> Holy s**t 🥵


OC sprayed - twice. Not fun.


----------



## brihard

OldSolduer said:


> OC sprayed - twice. Not fun.


Full blast right in the face, and then had to move, fight, and communicate with my eyes full. Worst physical experience of my life. I’d ride the taser or get tear gassed multiple times any day over going through that again.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

OC mostly just made me mad....mace turned me into a quivering bowl of warm jello.

But I'd still take both over getting tasered again....


----------



## brihard

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> OC mostly just made me mad....mace turned me into a quivering bowl of warm jello.
> 
> But I'd still take both over getting tasered again....


Really? Wow. I mean, taser sucked, a lot, but it’s five seconds then it’s done. OC is with you for a good while. That was my experience, anyway.

That said, OC debilitates; an effective taser hit incapacitates. I’d use the taser over OC in nearly any realistic situation.


----------



## RedFive

brihard said:


> Full blast right in the face, and then had to move, fight, and communicate with my eyes full. Worst physical experience of my life. I’d ride the taser or get tear gassed multiple times any day over going through that again.


When I did the use of force instructor course for the RCMP earlier this year, I got sprayed for the second time. First was at Depot.

I then did a significantly more challenging and lengthy move fight and communicate course than the one done at Depot. Worth it? Yes. Would I do it again for fun? Absolutely not.


----------



## CBH99

OldSolduer said:


> OC sprayed - twice. Not fun.


Nope.  Not fun at all.  

I got a face full of bear spray (forearms too as I went to block what I could) and at first it just pissed me off.  I actually thought to myself “This little shit…I’m going to pound the stuffing out of him, hard, and won’t feel bad about it!”

I then continued to chase him for…oh, 3 seconds or so…before it really kicked in and I was just like “Nope, nevermind!”


Broke into a nearby house so I had an address for backup to attend, and ended up in their bathroom for hours.  I was absolutely combat ineffective after the first minute or so.  

Had no idea my body could produce mucus so damn instantaneously, or for that long…


----------



## medicineman

I remember covering a use of force course with OC spray in Haiti - the infanteers that were carrying had to get sprayed and man, those folks were turned into 6 month olds in a heartbeat.  

Funny thing - the locals got more worried if the spray can came out than if we pointed a gun at them...


----------



## daftandbarmy

medicineman said:


> I remember covering a use of force course with OC spray in Haiti - the infanteers that were carrying had to get sprayed and man, those folks were turned into 6 month olds in a heartbeat.
> 
> Funny thing - the locals got more worried if the spray can came out than if we pointed a gun at them...



The problem with various gasses and sprays is that the rioters can get acclimatized to them, and they keep on fighting.

Plastic bullets OTOH


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:


> The problem with various gasses and sprays is that the rioters can get acclimatized to them, and they keep on fighting.
> 
> Plastic bullets OTOH
> 
> View attachment 75247


Oh I know that - surprised at how little CS bothered me my last run through the chamber, whereas there were a few youngsters that didn't tolerate it well, and in fact panicked.  Mind you, I could see in there, so it wasn't that concentrated...and just said "Oh well, this'll suck a bit until I get some fresh air and a breeze"...and did my drills.


----------



## Skysix

RedFive said:


> Three times in three months?
> 
> I responded to the same guy overdosing three times in a day, once. The first two times he came up fighting and we let him go, refusing medical care. The third, we fought back long and hard and took him by force to the hospital.


WTF? I never gave more narcan than was needed to ensure breathing, the started a slow drip or gave an IM. If we got hurt by a pt. we were off work and the company would never seek assault charges. The ER can rack them side by side with sat monitors/alarms and 2 security in a smallish closed room (8 cots)


----------



## Skysix

Retired AF Guy said:


> "Some have pepper spray for protection."
> 
> Isn't that illegal?


Protection against wild animals. Mindless humans are animals too


----------



## Booter

I’m


Skysix said:


> WTF? I never gave more narcan than was needed to ensure breathing, the started a slow drip or gave an IM. If we got hurt by a pt. we were off work and the company would never seek assault charges. The ER can rack them side by side with sat monitors/alarms and 2 security in a smallish closed room (8 cots)


we were using 2 narcan hits a shift- 8 a day in a mid size city. That’s police only not counting the fire and EMS shots they did daily as well.

We give narcan- we don’t really give different size Doses. I didn’t even know that was a thing.

My experience is the same at redfive. And there are no charges that really come with it. At least not that get to court 🤷‍♀️


----------



## brihard

Skysix said:


> WTF? I never gave more narcan than was needed to ensure breathing, the started a slow drip or gave an IM. If we got hurt by a pt. we were off work and the company would never seek assault charges. The ER can rack them side by side with sat monitors/alarms and 2 security in a smallish closed room (8 cots)


Police Narcan is a nasal spray. We have no control over dose. It’s purely a lifesaving measure, and if they come up swinging, we deal with the situation that presents itself.


----------



## mariomike

Don't know about the rest of Canada, but it's free in Ontario.


			https://www.ontario.ca/page/where-get-free-naloxone-kit


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Skysix said:


> WTF? I never gave more narcan than was needed to ensure breathing, the started a slow drip or gave an IM. If we got hurt by a pt. we were off work and the company would never seek assault charges. The ER can rack them side by side with sat monitors/alarms and 2 security in a smallish closed room (8 cots)


Most people are trained to give a simple dose with the needle, in the training they are very frank about how people react when you save their life.


----------



## Kat Stevens

mariomike said:


> Don't know about the rest of Canada, but it's free in Ontario.
> 
> 
> https://www.ontario.ca/page/where-get-free-naloxone-kit


Well it's not like it's an optional drug like insulin, is it?


----------



## brihard

Kat Stevens said:


> Well it's not like it's an optional drug like insulin, is it?


Insulin (and a number of other medications) should be covered under some sort of public pharmacare plan. It’s not, and that’s unfortunately. But that has no bearing on it being a good thing that naloxone, which can immediately save lives, is freely distributed.


----------



## Kat Stevens

brihard said:


> Insulin (and a number of other medications) should be covered under some sort of public pharmacare plan. It’s not, and that’s unfortunately. But that has no bearing on it being a good thing that naloxone, which can immediately save lives, is freely distributed.


Swing and a miss, nice try.  I'm not saying druggie saving should cost, I'm saying saving non druggies with life threatening conditions should be free, also.


----------



## dapaterson

Kat Stevens said:


> Swing and a miss, nice try.  I'm not saying druggie saving should cost, I'm saying saving non druggies with life threatening conditions should be free, also.


Sounds like you two are in violent agreement.


----------



## Kat Stevens

dapaterson said:


> Sounds like you two are in violent agreement.


I thought so, but, as always, no comment of mine can go unchallenged.


----------



## brihard

Kat Stevens said:


> I thought so, but, as always, no comment of mine can go unchallenged.


If that’s aimed at me, you’re being dramatic. I don’t reply to most of your comments.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Gentlemen, please....


----------



## Skysix

Booter said:


> I’m
> 
> we were using 2 narcan hits a shift- 8 a day in a mid size city. That’s police only not counting the fire and EMS shots they did daily as well.
> 
> We give narcan- we don’t really give different size Doses. I didn’t even know that was a thing.
> 
> My experience is the same at redfive. And there are no charges that really come with it. At least not that get to court 🤷‍♀️


Fair. I am a CCP so have a lot more lattitude in treatment options.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Two men enter, one man leaves.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Brad Sallows said:


> Two men enter, one man leaves.


That'll be me.


----------



## mariomike

Skysix said:


> I am a CCP so have a lot more lattitude in treatment options.



CCP are cream of the crop. There are only about 200 in Ontario.


----------



## dapaterson

I strongly suspect that, between diplomats, legal and illegals, there are over 200 members of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in Ottawa.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

brihard said:


> Insulin (and a number of other medications) should be covered under some sort of public pharmacare plan. It’s not, and that’s unfortunately. But that has no bearing on it being a good thing that naloxone, which can immediately save lives, is freely distributed.


They just started covering Continuous Glucose Monitors (CGM's) here in BC, which is a good thing. If you can control your Blood sugars early on with T1D, then the long term health outcomes are significant and the costs to the healthcare system go down considerably. In our house, both insulin and juice are life saving drugs.


----------



## daftandbarmy

I like how they have a hopeful little 'help wanted' ad at the end 

Woman Arrested After Obstructing Paramedics, Assaulting Officer​
*Victoria, BC* – A VicPD officer received non-life-threatening injuries after stopping a woman who was preventing BC Emergency Health Services (BCEHS) paramedics from providing life-saving medical care to a person experiencing an opioid overdose last night.

At approximately 7:50 p.m., Patrol officers were called to the 900-block of Pandora Avenue to assist BCEHS paramedics who were attempting to revive a person suffering from a life-threatening opioid overdose when a bystander attempted to stop paramedics from treating their patient. A Patrol officer arrived and located the paramedics working on their patient surrounded by a group of bystanders. The officer then observed a woman step out from the group of bystanders, push a paramedic aside and stand over the patient. The officer took the woman by the arm and removed her from the immediate area. Paramedics continued their life-saving efforts.

The woman then stated that she would continue to interrupt paramedics’ work. The officer attempted to get the woman to speak with him about her concerns in an effort to de-escalate the situation and allow the paramedics time to treat their patient. The woman again attempted to move towards where paramedics were working, so the officer then walked the woman to the corner of Pandora Avenue and Quadra Street.

The woman then attacked the officer, striking him in the face and knocking his glasses off. The officer took the woman to the ground and held her until additional officers arrived and assisted in taking her into custody.

The officer suffered non-life-threatening injuries in the assault and his glasses were damaged, but he was able to complete his shift.

The woman was transported to VicPD cells and then released with a future court date. She was not injured.

BCEHS paramedics were successful in reviving their patient through life-saving emergency medical care.

This incident remains under investigation.

If you witnessed, or have video of this incident, please call the VicPD Report Desk at (250) 995-7654 extension 1.


-30-


 We’re seeking qualified candidates for both police officer and civilian positions. Thinking about a career in public service? Join VicPD and help us make Victoria and Esquimalt a safer community together.  









						Woman Arrested After Obstructing Paramedics, Assaulting Officer
					

Date: Monday, December 5, 2022 File: 22-46166 Victoria, BC – A VicPD officer received non-life-threatening injuries after stopping a woman who was




					vicpd.ca


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:


> I like how they have a hopeful little 'help wanted' ad at the end
> 
> 
> We’re seeking qualified candidates for both police officer and civilian positions. Thinking about a career in public service? Join VicPD and help us make Victoria and Esquimalt a safer community together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Woman Arrested After Obstructing Paramedics, Assaulting Officer
> 
> 
> Date: Monday, December 5, 2022 File: 22-46166 Victoria, BC – A VicPD officer received non-life-threatening injuries after stopping a woman who was
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vicpd.ca


Should have had something to lead into it like "If you too want to get smacked around by the public only to see them walk before you finish your report, call 250-HIT-FACE to consult our recruiters".


----------



## OldSolduer

medicineman said:


> Should have had something to lead into it like "If you too want to get smacked around by the public only to see them walk before you finish your report, call 250-HIT-FACE to consult our recruiters".


If Vic is anything like Winnipeg the bad guys get to walk with a Promise to Appear - even in serious cases.


----------



## mariomike

daftandbarmy said:


> Woman Arrested After Obstructing Paramedics, Assaulting Officer​



I don't know what the law is - or if there is one - regarding obstruction of paramedics in Canada.

Looks like "obstructing" paramedics is a Class A misdemeanor in many ( all? ) U.S. states.

New York State 195.16


> Obstructing emergency medical services is a Class A misdemeanor.


----------



## Quirky

Maybe it was a concerned taxpayer who was tired of resources being wasted on the same issues?


----------



## mariomike

Quirky said:


> Maybe it was a concerned taxpayer who was tired of resources being wasted on the same issues?



Maybe. But, as "a concerned taxpayer" myself, I would be more concerned with the financial liability of paramedics refusing 9-1-1 calls.

In my town, paramedics simply delaying service to a 9-1-1 call cost city taxpayers $10 million.

We had no control. Tones go off. Door goes up. Wheels rolling in 60 seconds.

Usually a "concerned citizen" calls it in the first place.


----------



## medicineman

OldSolduer said:


> If Vic is anything like Winnipeg the bad guys get to walk with a Promise to Appear - even in serious cases.


That's very ummm, naive to believe that there is honour amongst miscreants/phuquewits/serious offenders...


----------



## brihard

mariomike said:


> I don't know what the law is - or if there is one - regarding obstruction of paramedics in Canada.
> 
> Looks like "obstructing" paramedics is a Class A misdemeanor in many ( all? ) U.S. states.
> 
> New York State 195.16


There’s no specific law for that. But you better believe if police are on scene and you’re obstructing the paramedics we’ll sort you the fuck out right ricky-tick. There will definitely be some offense we can articulate.


----------



## TacticalTea

Pierre Poilievre: Addiction policy is broken. We must fix it
					

With a fair, firm and compassionate approach, we can keep our communities safe while treating addiction as a health-care issue




					nationalpost.com
				





PP appears to test the waters, walks towards a form of re-institutionalization.

Looking forward to read more on this. This is exactly the sort of thing I believe the federal government should work on.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> I don't know what the law is - or if there is one - regarding obstruction of paramedics in Canada.
> 
> Looks like "obstructing" paramedics is a Class A misdemeanor in many ( all? ) U.S. states.
> 
> New York State 195.16





brihard said:


> There’s no specific law for that. But you better believe if police are on scene and you’re obstructing the paramedics we’ll sort you the fuck out right ricky-tick. There will definitely be some offense we can articulate.


I thought there was as a result of recent CC amendments to include "health professionals" in a new 423.2 (Intimidation).  Alas, paramedics aren't  defined as 'health professionals' in Ontario because they aren't regulated by a 'college'.


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> Alas, paramedics aren't  defined as 'health professionals' in Ontario because they aren't regulated by a 'college'.



After I retired, the members of our department overwelming voted NO to a regulatory college for five reasons.

1. Regulatory colleges are not teaching colleges. Rather they set the criteria for professional certification and investigate complaints from the public and discipline college members regarding issues such as professional incompetence, professional misconduct, and sexual impropriety.

2. Certification under a college model often shifts the blame for systemic problems in the workplace to the individual worker and removes government accountability for policies and funding decisions that have direct bearing on issues, incidences and the investigation of a worker.

3. The disciplinary functions of regulatory colleges impose an additional and unnecessary level of oversight and discipline above what is already in place under employer policy, legislation and freely negotiated collective agreements.

4. Mandatory fees to a college pose a financial burden and create a barrier for workers who are required to pay fees out-of-pocket to maintain their license/certification to practice. In Alberta paramedics pay $600 a year to the regulatory college.

5. Because colleges are designed to “protect the public”, workers who fall under a regulated profession or college model often pay out-of-pocket for malpractice insurance to protect themselves against liability.


----------



## RedFive

brihard said:


> There’s no specific law for that. But you better believe if police are on scene and you’re obstructing the paramedics we’ll sort you the fuck out right ricky-tick. There will definitely be some offense we can articulate.


My colleagues and I do our best to respond to "Assist EHS" type calls as soon as possible no matter what they're for. They're so short in this province they need all the help they can get, and if us helping them here frees up another one over there for another call, that's the best case scenario.

We do end up dealing with some stupid crap that is in no way shape or form Police work, though. I also went through our Policy book and found that transport of patients is authorized in RCMP vehicles if no ambulance is available so that's been a neat trick I keep in the back pocket.


----------



## mariomike

RedFive said:


> I also went through our Policy book and found that transport of patients is authorized in RCMP vehicles if no ambulance is available so that's been a neat trick I keep in the back pocket.



I read that Philadelphia police transport 2 of every 3 gunshot victims to hospital.

The Chicago police "squadrols" were pretty well known for that too.

Although there have been occasional "mishaps".








						City set to pay $1.8 million in squadrol death
					






					www.chicagotribune.com
				






> The City of Chicago has tentatively agreed to pay $1.8 million to settle a federal lawsuit that alleged a highly intoxicated man suffocated in the back of a police squadrol in November 2000 while two officers ate dinner and took two hours to take him to a hospital.


----------



## daftandbarmy

OK, this is a bizarre one... and he's been released following the arrest...

Arrest made after burning liquid sprayed on women; VicPD looking for more victims​ 
In November, police responded to three incidents in which women had an unknown hot-feeling liquid splashed on their legs.









						Arrest made after burning liquid sprayed on women; VicPD looking for more victims
					

In November, police responded to three incidents in which women had an unknown hot-feeling liquid splashed on their legs.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## medicineman

daftandbarmy said:


> OK, this is a bizarre one... and he's been released following the arrest...
> 
> Arrest made after burning liquid sprayed on women; VicPD looking for more victims​
> In November, police responded to three incidents in which women had an unknown hot-feeling liquid splashed on their legs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arrest made after burning liquid sprayed on women; VicPD looking for more victims
> 
> 
> In November, police responded to three incidents in which women had an unknown hot-feeling liquid splashed on their legs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.timescolonist.com


I mean, why keep a demented phuquewit like that in jail, much less a forensic facility?


----------



## OldSolduer

medicineman said:


> I mean, why keep a demented phuquewit like that in jail, much less a forensic facility?


No kidding - he won't obey court orders and will be arrested again, and again, and again


----------



## Good2Golf

medicineman said:


> I mean, why keep a demented phuquewit like that in jail, much less a forensic facility?


Probably misadvantaged and misunderstood…so it fits it with the Feds’ and BCs’ apologist agenda, which would rather take the effort to see repeat offenders released on conditions that some believe will be followed (but aren’t) and which results in innocent civilians being assaulted with damaging substances…or a young police officer being (allegedly) slayed while responding to an apparent vehicle accident.


----------



## OldSolduer

Good2Golf said:


> Probably misadvantaged and misunderstood…so it fits it with the Feds’ and BCs’ apologist agenda, which would rather take the effort to see repeat offenders released on conditions that some believe will be followed (but aren’t) and which results in innocent civilians being assaulted with damaging substances…or a young police officer being (allegedly) slayed while responding to an apparent vehicle accident.


Herein lies the truth - guilty white champagne and limo liberals (not Liberal party) thinking they know better. They have not a clue about the real world.


----------



## mariomike

> a young police officer being (allegedly) slayed while responding to an apparent vehicle accident.



I'm old enough to remember when they used to hang cop-killers back-to-back at the Don.

Within only a few months of arrest. Not years.


----------



## Halifax Tar

OldSolduer said:


> Herein lies the truth - guilty white champagne and limo liberals (not Liberal party) thinking they know better. They have not a clue about the real world.



That and it's showing way(s) in which our legal system is failing.  Words and paper are great when people are willing honor them equally. 

What we see now is what happens when a certain segment of the population understands that it really means nothing and the only absolute is what's in front of your face at the moment.

Eventually the citizenry will fix this if the powers that be continue to spin their wheels.

This from Halifax: 









						Police believe homicide victim was invading home
					

Investigators believe two men were committing a home invasion when they were confronted by a resident




					halifax.citynews.ca
				




Chalk that up as a win for the good guys.


----------



## OldSolduer

Halifax Tar said:


> That and it's showing way(s) in which our legal system is failing.  Words and paper are great when people are willing honor them equally.
> 
> What we see now is what happens when a certain segment of the population understands that it really means nothing and the only absolute is what's in front of your face at the moment.
> 
> Eventually the citizenry will fix this if the powers that be continue to spin their wheels.
> 
> This from Halifax:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police believe homicide victim was invading home
> 
> 
> Investigators believe two men were committing a home invasion when they were confronted by a resident
> 
> 
> 
> 
> halifax.citynews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chalk that up as a win for the good guys.


Oh yes this happened in Calgary in 1986. A drug store had been robbed twice by the same robber, third time the owner blasted him with a shotgun. Dead.

Not guilty. By a jury of his peers.


----------



## mariomike

OldSolduer said:


> Oh yes this happened in Calgary in 1986. A drug store had been robbed twice by the same robber, third time the owner blasted him with a shotgun. Dead.
> 
> Not guilty. By a jury of his peers.



Steve Kesler.


----------



## medicineman

OldSolduer said:


> Oh yes this happened in Calgary in 1986. A drug store had been robbed twice by the same robber, third time the owner blasted him with a shotgun. Dead.
> 
> Not guilty. By a jury of his peers.


I remember that - was living in Q's and the place wasn't far from the Base.  I seem to recall the big issue was he shot them in the back while running away (or was that the second time he schwacked someone - IIRC, he shot two people in successive robberies)?


----------



## mariomike

Steve Kesler






						Remembering a legend. - Free Online Library
					

Free Online Library: Remembering a legend.(Exercising The Right) by "The New American";  News, opinion and commentary General interest



					www.thefreelibrary.com


----------



## Halifax Tar

mariomike said:


> Steve Kesler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remembering a legend. - Free Online Library
> 
> 
> Free Online Library: Remembering a legend.(Exercising The Right) by "The New American";  News, opinion and commentary General interest
> 
> 
> 
> www.thefreelibrary.com



I shed no tears nor lose any sleep over the death of a criminal.


----------



## CBH99

Halifax Tar said:


> That and it's showing way(s) in which our legal system is failing.  Words and paper are great when people are willing honor them equally.
> 
> What we see now is what happens when a certain segment of the population understands that it really means nothing and the only absolute is what's in front of your face at the moment.
> 
> Eventually the citizenry will fix this if the powers that be continue to spin their wheels.
> 
> This from Halifax:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Police believe homicide victim was invading home
> 
> 
> Investigators believe two men were committing a home invasion when they were confronted by a resident
> 
> 
> 
> 
> halifax.citynews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chalk that up as a win for the good guys.


Finally, a good news story 

(Good news in the sense that the homeowner that was being robbed didn't end up in more trouble than the robber)


----------



## medicineman

That article is written in an American context of exercising rights of self defence - which is somewhat more permissive in the US than in Canada.  He was charged with murder because the offender that died was shot in the back while fleeing.  He was likely able to articulate something regarding fear for life of being caught between two armed robbers I'm guessing and dealt with the one not shooting back first to take them out of the picture, thinking they might come back and flank them or something.  Speculation on my part.



Halifax Tar said:


> I shed no tears nor lose any sleep over the death of a criminal.



I rarely do either, however schwacking someone after the fact vs in literal commission are really two different things.  There really is a fine line you're toeing that you can fall over and land flat on your face if you're not careful. I'm sure a copper might chime in.  I'm also looking at things from the side of a prospective juror, as I have a summons to appear for jury service this month   .


----------



## Kat Stevens

medicineman said:


> That article is written in an American context of exercising rights of self defence - which is somewhat more permissive in the US than in Canada.  He was charged with murder because the offender that died was shot in the back while fleeing.  He was likely able to articulate something regarding fear for life of being caught between two armed robbers I'm guessing and dealt with the one not shooting back first to take them out of the picture, thinking they might come back and flank them or something.  Speculation on my part.
> 
> 
> 
> I rarely do either, however schwacking someone after the fact vs in literal commission are really two different things.  There really is a fine line you're toeing that you can fall over and land flat on your face if you're not careful. I'm sure a copper might chime in.  I'm also looking at things from the side of a prospective juror, as I have a summons to appear for jury service this month   .


A prisoner of war armed robber is someone who tries to kill you and, having failed, begs you not to kill him.  

some guy named Churchill


----------



## Halifax Tar

medicineman said:


> I rarely do either, however schwacking someone after the fact vs in literal commission are really two different things.  There really is a fine line you're toeing that you can fall over and land flat on your face if you're not careful. I'm sure a copper might chime in.  I'm also looking at things from the side of a prospective juror, as I have a summons to appear for jury service this month   .



With respect you and the law can hand wring over technicalities if you'd like, I am comfortable in my clarity. 

The criminal does not cease being the criminal if they are not presently commiting a crime.  Killed in the act, or die in their sleep.  I care not which way, I sleep soundly and without tear.


----------



## medicineman

Kat Stevens said:


> A prisoner of war armed robber is someone who tries to kill you and, having failed, begs you not to kill him.
> 
> some guy named Churchill


Can almost guarantee that if that were a police officer that shot someone in the back, fleeing or not, they'd be pushing carts at Costco not long afterwards, if nothing else because of the optics of shooting someone in the back who was no longer an active threat...in fact, I seem to recall a few years after this incident a Calgary cop mag dumping their Glock at the back of a fleeing car that tried running them over...they were suspended.  While said dirtbag did try running them over (and a Calgary cop had been killed a few years previous by another dirtbag that ran them over while he was tossing a spike belt  out in front of them to end a chase), the person and car were no longer a threat AND it was a busy street, and not many rounds made it to the car, so that means those rounds were flying around 14th Ave as the bars were emptying.  Had they Bootlegged it and drove back at them, another story that might have ended differently.

Again, I have no issue with dickheads being removed from society by taking the sidewalk temperature challenge...I'm just saying we have to be careful that we do it right and don't turn into the same dickheads, as we will lose what rights we have.  As it is, the bad guys seem to have more rights than us.   



Halifax Tar said:


> With respect you and the law can rand wring over technicalities if you'd like, I am comfortable in my clarity.
> 
> The criminal does not cease being the criminal if they are not presently commiting a crime.  Killed in the act, or die in their sleep.  I care not which way, I sleep soundly and without tear.


It's not the Wild West anymore...You may want to go to West World to try and work out some issues .


----------



## Halifax Tar

medicineman said:


> It's not the Wild West anymore...You may want to go to West World to try and work out some issues .



I have no issues.  I, simply, don't care about dead criminals.


----------



## brihard

Halifax Tar said:


> With respect you and the law can hand wring over technicalities if you'd like, I am comfortable in my clarity.
> 
> The criminal does not cease being the criminal if they are not presently commiting a crime.  Killed in the act, or die in their sleep.  I care not which way, I sleep soundly and without tear.


Sure, but those ‘technicalities’ determine whether someone has committed a crime and goes to jail, or whether they acted in legitimate self defense.

Any use of deadly force, by police or a civilian, will only be justified if the person using force can explain why they perceived a threat of death or grievous bodily harm to themselves or another. It has to be an imminent and realistic threat, not a conceptual, hypothetical, or future one.

There can be circumstances where it may be justified and even necessary to shoot someone in the back- say they’re an active shooter moving away from you and towards new victims; we actually go through this as a training scenario. But these are vents are rare. In a case where someone is fleeing a crime scene, you can’t shoot them to stop them fleeing and arrest them. (There’s a very narrow exception for certain cases of escape from a penitentiary, but I’m not up to speed on the fine details of that.)

Anyway- the right to use deadly force in self defense stops when the imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm stops. If the person turns and runs and you have time to perceive that, good luck articulating why you shot at them as they fled. You’ll be charged and probably convicted, and it will be correct. But, in the moment of self defense, you can absolutely use reasonably necessary and proportionate force with whatever is at hand. Even something unlawfully possessed can be lawfully used in self defense, though that won’t get you off the hook for possessing it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Most of the recent self-defense cases in Canada involved bad guy vs bad guy. Lethal force in Canada is still legitimate for citizens, but as Brihard mentions, you can still be charged and consider that the Crown will not be your friend. If you are likely to be in a situation where deadly force is going to be used, then what you said beforehand and afterward will be used against you. Boastful posting about shooting someone could come back to haunt you at the trial.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin Parkinson said:


> Most of the recent self-defense cases in Canada involved bad guy vs bad guy. Lethal force in Canada is still legitimate for citizens, but as Brihard mentions, you can still be charged and consider that the Crown will not be your friend. If you are likely to be in a situation where deadly force is going to be used, then what you said beforehand and afterward will be used against you. Boastful posting about shooting someone could come back to haunt you at the trial.



If you pull a trigger, be prepared to explain why to a judge and jury


----------



## Halifax Tar

brihard said:


> Sure, but those ‘technicalities’ determine whether someone has committed a crime and goes to jail, or whether they acted in legitimate self defense.
> 
> Any use of deadly force, by police or a civilian, will only be justified if the person using force can explain why they perceived a threat of death or grievous bodily harm to themselves or another. It has to be an imminent and realistic threat, not a conceptual, hypothetical, or future one.
> 
> There can be circumstances where it may be justified and even necessary to shoot someone in the back- say they’re an active shooter moving away from you and towards new victims; we actually go through this as a training scenario. But these are vents are rare. In a case where someone is fleeing a crime scene, you can’t shoot them to stop them fleeing and arrest them. (There’s a very narrow exception for certain cases of escape from a penitentiary, but I’m not up to speed on the fine details of that.)
> 
> Anyway- the right to use deadly force in self defense stops when the imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm stops. If the person turns and runs and you have time to perceive that, good luck articulating why you shot at them as they fled. You’ll be charged and probably convicted, and it will be correct. But, in the moment of self defense, you can absolutely use reasonably necessary and proportionate force with whatever is at hand. Even something unlawfully possessed can be lawfully used in self defense, though that won’t get you off the hook for possessing it.



Very good, it's all a word salad that I've read before.  And I fully expect you're in everyway correct. 

It's still changes nothing for me.  A dead criminal means nothing to me.


----------



## OldSolduer

Halifax Tar said:


> A dead criminal means nothing to me.


But they were loved by their families and were "family men". THAT is what every obituary says about them. And its a lie.


----------



## Halifax Tar

OldSolduer said:


> But they were loved by their families and were "family men". THAT is what every obituary says about them. And its a lie.



Delusion is a hell of a drug, eh ?


----------



## TacticalTea

Halifax Tar said:


> Very good, it's all a word salad that I've read before.  And I fully expect you're in everyway correct.
> 
> It's still changes nothing for me.  A dead criminal means nothing to me.


Am I the only one who finds it odd that folks found it necessary to explain to you the fundamental rule of engagement - self-defence - on this forum of all places?  😅 

I thought it was very clear from the get go that your stance is a moral one, not a legal or technical one.


----------



## mariomike

Colin Parkinson said:


> If you are likely to be in a situation where deadly force is going to be used, then what you said beforehand and afterward will be used against you. Boastful posting about shooting someone could come back to haunt you at the trial.



Possibly even as a job applicant.








						Would you reveal your Facebook password for a job?
					

In their efforts to vet applicants, some companies and government agencies are going beyond merely glancing at a person’s social networking profiles and instead asking to log in as the user to have a look around.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## Halifax Tar

Colin Parkinson said:


> Most of the recent self-defense cases in Canada involved bad guy vs bad guy. Lethal force in Canada is still legitimate for citizens, but as Brihard mentions, you can still be charged and consider that the Crown will not be your friend. If you are likely to be in a situation where deadly force is going to be used, then what you said beforehand and afterward will be used against you. Boastful posting about shooting someone could come back to haunt you at the trial.



As a legal firearms owner I am well versed on the sad trials we put our people through because they had to take law into their own hands.  

I remain unchanged, a dead criminal means nothing to me.  You want to live that life, you accept it's possible fates and outcomes.  Same as all choices we make in life, righteous or evil.


----------



## lenaitch

A dead criminal may mean nothing to you, but if you are the one to put them in that state, you had better be prepared to justify your actions or you may be arguing your case to a cell-mate.

The actions and force must be justified and proportionate.  We've moved on from mobs.


----------



## Halifax Tar

lenaitch said:


> A dead criminal may mean nothing to you, but if you are the one to put them in that state, you had better be prepared to justify your actions or you may be arguing your case to a cell-mate.
> 
> The actions and force must be justified and proportionate.  We've moved on from mobs.



Thank you for your input.


----------



## lenaitch

Halifax Tar said:


> Thank you for your input.


You're welcome?


----------



## brihard

TacticalTea said:


> Am I the only one who finds it odd that folks found it necessary to explain to you the fundamental rule of engagement - self-defence - on this forum of all places?  😅
> 
> I thought it was very clear from the get go that your stance is a moral one, not a legal or technical one.


Why do you find it weird? Troops as a generality don’t know any more about the law around self defense and use of force in Canada than the rest of the population- case in point, you’re using the term ‘rule of engagement’, which is utterly meaningless outside of the military. The actions you can take to defend yourself in theatre can be, depending on your ROE, very different from what our law allows for both police and civilians.

I’ve heard some profoundly dumb takes out of people who’ve carried arms overseas and thinks that gives them insight into here at home. (This isn’t a shot I’m taking at anyone in this thread, just so that’s clear.)



Halifax Tar said:


> Very good, it's all a word salad that I've read before.  And I fully expect you're in everyway correct.
> 
> It's still changes nothing for me.  A dead criminal means nothing to me.



Yup, I know. I’m not trying to change yours or anyone else’s _emotional_ response to dead criminals. Just offering what insight I have into what the law says, and how good people can stay out of shit in a really bad situation.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

lenaitch said:


> A dead criminal may mean nothing to you, but if you are the one to put them in that state, you had better be prepared to justify your actions or you may be arguing your case to a cell-mate.
> 
> The actions and force must be justified and proportionate.  We've moved on from mobs.


and going from the actions of some Crown Prosecutors, into the realm of public show trials to keep the peasants in line.


----------



## daftandbarmy

brihard said:


> Why do you find it weird? Troops as a generality don’t know any more about the law around self defense and use of force in Canada than the rest of the population- case in point, you’re using the term ‘rule of engagement’,_* which is utterly meaningless outside of the military. *_



Cue fond memories of trying to explain to (some CAF military) people why you can't shoot someone throwing molotov cocktails


----------



## Halifax Tar

brihard said:


> Why do you find it weird? Troops as a generality don’t know any more about the law around self defense and use of force in Canada than the rest of the population- case in point, you’re using the term ‘rule of engagement’, which is utterly meaningless outside of the military. The actions you can take to defend yourself in theatre can be, depending on your ROE, very different from what our law allows for both police and civilians.
> 
> I’ve heard some profoundly dumb takes out of people who’ve carried arms overseas and thinks that gives them insight into here at home. (This isn’t a shot I’m taking at anyone in this thread, just so that’s clear.)



I have been trained in UoF as follows: 

Capability
Proximity
Intent 

Capability - Do they have the capability to cause harm or destruction? 

Proximity - Are they close enough to engage us/me ? 

Intent - Do they have dangerous or destructive intent ?

That in conjunction with the RoE (very mission specific) governs the application of violence as I have been taught.


----------



## TacticalTea

brihard said:


> Why do you find it weird? Troops as a generality don’t know any more about the law around self defense and use of force in Canada than the rest of the population-


Respectfully, I think that's completely false. I don't know how the Army does things but I would expect sailors at OFP to be more than familiar with the principles you outlined in your previous comment.


brihard said:


> case in point, you’re using the term ‘rule of engagement’, which is utterly meaningless outside of the military.


I purposely wrote ''rule'' singular, as opposed to ''*Rules* of engagement'', a defined term, to differentiate the two. I know, it may have been too subtle. My bad.
Nonetheless words are not, in fact, meaningless. I think most people with at least a vague interest in military matters would readily understand why I used that term: 
Because the laws and regulations concerning self-defence are, in effect, a rule that dictates whether or not you may engage a threat to your life. A civilian would also generally not know of the technical ramifications of ROEs, despite knowing about those as a concept (such as from watching the movie... Rules of Engagement!).



brihard said:


> The actions you can take to defend yourself in theatre can be, depending on your ROE, very different from what our law allows for both police and civilians.


That's cool. But we're specifically talking about self-defence, which is no different for uniformed and non-uniformed Canadians alike, and, as I highlighted above, is not really one of ''the ROEs'', but an underlying principle in service of your right to life.


brihard said:


> Troops as a generality don’t know any more about the law around self defense and use of force in Canada than the rest of the population
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> I’ve heard some profoundly dumb takes out of people who’ve carried arms overseas and thinks that gives them insight into here at home.
Click to expand...

I like to think that the people on this forum are some of the more thoughtful types amongst their peers.


brihard said:


> (This isn’t a shot I’m taking at anyone in this thread, just so that’s clear.)


None perceived, none taken, and none intended.


----------



## brihard

Halifax Tar said:


> I have been trained in UoF as follows:
> 
> Capability
> Proximity
> Intent
> 
> Capability - Do they have the capability to cause harm or destruction?
> 
> Proximity - Are they close enough to engage us/me ?
> 
> Intent - Do they have dangerous or destructive intent ?
> 
> That in conjunction with the RoE (very mission specific) governs the application of violence as I have been taught.


Yup, and in a military context where hostilities are ongoing or imminently expected, that’s a very useful structure that every soldier should be able to be trained in and grasp. Domestic law is simply more restrictive than ROE generally are.


----------



## Halifax Tar

brihard said:


> Yup, and in a military context where hostilities are ongoing or imminently expected, that’s a very useful structure that every soldier should be able to be trained in and grasp. Domestic law is simply more restrictive than ROE generally are.



Are we talking in a military or civilian scenario? 

I have plans and methods in place to defend my house and family.   Our batty neighbor next door and the rising crime and violence in our neighborhood has really awakened me to the fact in a situation akin to a home invasion, I'm probably on my own for a bit.  And I'd rather go to jail and know my family is safe than be free and know I didn't stand up when needed.  As well I would rather have the tools and means and not need them; than wish I had them if I ever do.

You guys are way over tasked.  We need more of you so I don't have to take these things as seriously as I have now.


----------



## Good2Golf

brihard said:


> Domestic law is simply more restrictive than *most serious nations’* ROE generally are.


Canadian ROE…


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Good2Golf said:


> Canadian ROE…
> 
> View attachment 75709


Canadian when questioned about ROE.....


----------



## brihard

TacticalTea said:


> Respectfully, I think that's completely false. I don't know how the Army does things but I would expect sailors at OFP to be more than familiar with the principles you outlined in your previous comment.
> 
> I purposely wrote ''rule'' singular, as opposed to ''*Rules* of engagement'', a defined term, to differentiate the two. I know, it may have been too subtle. My bad.
> Nonetheless words are not, in fact, meaningless. I think most people with at least a vague interest in military matters would readily understand why I used that term:
> Because the laws and regulations concerning self-defence are, in effect, a rule that dictates whether or not you may engage a threat to your life. A civilian would also generally not know of the technical ramifications of ROEs, despite knowing about those as a concept (such as from watching the movie... Rules of Engagement!).
> 
> 
> That's cool. But we're specifically talking about self-defence, which is no different for uniformed and non-uniformed Canadians alike, and, as I highlighted above, is not really one of ''the ROEs'', but an underlying principle in service of your right to life.
> 
> I like to think that the people on this forum are some of the more thoughtful types amongst their peers.
> 
> None perceived, none taken, and none intended.



I did actually note the singular, which is why I used the same.

I'm not trying to cut you down here, and I'm not saying that you personally may not have a better grasp on this than most. Frankly, I think that most people who participate actively on this board are more thoughtful than the average bear. I'm drawing not just on policing experience here, but on my experience as an infantry dismount in Kandahar, and as a section commander in a DOMOPS security context for Op Cadence, the G8/G20, where we had some... questionable training in being prepared to use force in a domestic context. I wish I'd have known then what I know now, because as a section commander I would have been better prepared for eventualities that, fortunately, did not come to pass.

The sort of terminology we use in rules of engagement discussions can be useful for thinking through scenarios,a nd for articulating your actions after the fact if you have to. Self defense in Canada will always be judged by what's in s.34 of the Criminal Code, and the caselaw that's fleshed that out. When I say certain words are 'meaningless', I mean that they have no significance in and of themselves _legally. _ You aren't concerned with explaining how you 'engaged a threat', but rather why you 'used force', and why the force used was for the purpose of 'defending or protecting themselves or another person', and why 'the act committed was reasonable in the circumstances'. Imminence of the force you're defending against, and proportionality of the force you used are also factors.

Interestingly, on the subject of military training and experience in articulating use of force decisions- just a few weeks ago there was finally a verdict on the retrial of Peter Khill, the former reservist from Hamilton who shot and killed a man who was trying to steal his truck. Khill relied extensively on his military training in his defense. The first trial (acquittal) was overturned on appeal, as the judge was found to have given faulty jury instructions. Specifically, the judge failed to instruct the jury adequately in considering the role Khill himself played in the incident. Khill unsuccessfully appealed this all the way to the Supreme Court. The second trial ended in mistrial. Finally, in a third trial this fall, he was just convicted of manslaughter (acquitted of murder). All said and done, the case is a caution on anyone wanting to rely on articulating their military training in why they used force civilly. In this case Khill exited his residence and basically snuck up to very close range before announcing his presence. I think that screwed him. Very different from, say, a home invasion situation.



Halifax Tar said:


> Are we talking in a military or civilian scenario?
> 
> I have plans and methods in place to defend my house and family.   Our batty neighbor next door and the rising crime and violence in our neighborhood has really awakened me to the fact in a situation akin to a home invasion, I'm probably on my own for a bit.  And I'd rather go to jail and know my family is safe than be free and know I didn't stand up when needed.  As well I would rather have the tools and means and not need them; than wish I had them if I ever do.
> 
> You guys are way over tasked.  We need more of you so I don't have to take these things as seriously as I have now.



Needless to say there are very big differences in what force can be used legally to defend persons versus defend property. As a general rule of thumb- by all means be prepared to act to defend persons, with force if needed. Give the other guy a way out if you can. If possible, let the other guy know he's in for a fight so he has the chance to disengage and get out. If someone is fleeing, don't use weapons against them. If you have the option of safely withdrawing and don't, you need to be prepared to explain why you didn't. Doesn't mean this can't be explained, but you need to be live to it.

But, all that said, if you're in a situation where you have to act now and violently to defend yourself or those with you against someone trying to hurt you, absolutely you can do that.  And shut the fuck up and get a lawyer. Articulating use of force immediately after it happens (e.g., in a statement to police) is not a good idea. Human memory in a critical incident or its immediate wake is a mess. Better a night in jail than committing yourself to a recounting of events that is skewed by the absolute shit situation you're in. Get legal counsel before explaining yourself.


----------



## Halifax Tar

brihard said:


> I did actually note the singular, which is why I used the same.
> 
> I'm not trying to cut you down here, and I'm not saying that you personally may not have a better grasp on this than most. Frankly, I think that most people who participate actively on this board are more thoughtful than the average bear. I'm drawing not just on policing experience here, but on my experience as an infantry dismount in Kandahar, and as a section commander in a DOMOPS security context for Op Cadence, the G8/G20, where we had some... questionable training in being prepared to use force in a domestic context. I wish I'd have known then what I know now, because as a section commander I would have been better prepared for eventualities that, fortunately, did not come to pass.
> 
> The sort of terminology we use in rules of engagement discussions can be useful for thinking through scenarios,a nd for articulating your actions after the fact if you have to. Self defense in Canada will always be judged by what's in s.34 of the Criminal Code, and the caselaw that's fleshed that out. When I say certain words are 'meaningless', I mean that they have no significance in and of themselves _legally. _ You aren't concerned with explaining how you 'engaged a threat', but rather why you 'used force', and why the force used was for the purpose of 'defending or protecting themselves or another person', and why 'the act committed was reasonable in the circumstances'. Imminence of the force you're defending against, and proportionality of the force you used are also factors.
> 
> Interestingly, on the subject of military training and experience in articulating use of force decisions- just a few weeks ago there was finally a verdict on the retrial of Peter Khill, the former reservist from Hamilton who shot and killed a man who was trying to steal his truck. Khill relied extensively on his military training in his defense. The first trial (acquittal) was overturned on appeal, as the judge was found to have given faulty jury instructions. Specifically, the judge failed to instruct the jury adequately in considering the role Khill himself played in the incident. Khill unsuccessfully appealed this all the way to the Supreme Court. The second trial ended in mistrial. Finally, in a third trial this fall, he was just convicted of manslaughter (acquitted of murder). All said and done, the case is a caution on anyone wanting to rely on articulating their military training in why they used force civilly. In this case Khill exited his residence and basically snuck up to very close range before announcing his presence. I think that screwed him. Very different from, say, a home invasion situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Needless to say there are very big differences in what force can be used legally to defend persons versus defend property. As a general rule of thumb- by all means be prepared to act to defend persons, with force if needed. Give the other guy a way out if you can. If possible, let the other guy know he's in for a fight so he has the chance to disengage and get out. If someone is fleeing, don't use weapons against them. If you have the option of safely withdrawing and don't, you need to be prepared to explain why you didn't. Doesn't mean this can't be explained, but you need to be live to it.
> 
> But, all that said, if you're in a situation where you have to act now and violently to defend yourself or those with you against someone trying to hurt you, absolutely you can do that.  And shut the fuck up and get a lawyer. Articulating use of force immediately after it happens (e.g., in a statement to police) is not a good idea. Human memory in a critical incident or its immediate wake is a mess. Better a night in jail than committing yourself to a recounting of events that is skewed by the absolute shit situation you're in. Get legal counsel before explaining yourself.



I understand the implications and difficulty we in Canada have with a scenario like this, I don't agree with it, but I understand it.  Some choose to leave these things to existing agencies, and that's a choice, the same as mine to take a level of person responsibly for it. 

I have a lawyer friend from Rugby and we've discussed this at length.  I'd rather not have to act, but if I do I'd rather be judged by a jury than leave my fate in the hands of a criminal.  

I say again, you guys are over tasked and we need more of you, so I don't have to take these things so seriously.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Overwhelmingly, most defensive firearm uses don't require a lethally aimed shot, or even any shot at all.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Brad Sallows said:


> Overwhelmingly, most defensive firearm uses don't require a lethally aimed shot, or even any shot at all.



There is something about a yelled warning and the racking of a pump action shotgun that generally makes people change direction.  

It's a distinct sound.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

The entire episode is what I call an abortion of justice.  A miscarriage of justice is when a bad man walks free, an abortion of justice is when they keep trying you until they get the result they want.

I'd give Khill a job the minute he gets out of prison.  Thieves are the worst kind of criminal and Styres is now going to be turned in to some kind of 'martyr' when he's really just another loser scumbag who just so happened to also be indigenous.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I suppose my point is that the greatest legal risk to a defendant is losing temper and shooting after the battle of wills is won.


----------



## OldSolduer

In the local paper this morning there was a story about an fire in which two people died. It was arson and the alleged arsonist has been arrested and detained.

He was out on the streets - his previous charges were arson. So here we have a guy who is a proven arsonist allowed to walk the streets, and allegedly cause the deaths of two people.


----------



## brihard

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The entire episode is what I call an abortion of justice.  A miscarriage of justice is when a bad man walks free, an abortion of justice is when they keep trying you until they get the result they want.
> 
> I'd give Khill a job the minute he gets out of prison.  Thieves are the worst kind of criminal and Styres is now going to be turned in to some kind of 'martyr' when he's really just another loser scumbag who just so happened to also be indigenous.


No, legal mistakes were made that necessitated appeal and a retrial. The judge has an important role to play in instructing a jury, and in this case the judge botched it the first time round- I think in part there had been relatively recent changes to the Crim Code regarding self defense, and this wasn't instructed correctly. That was appealed, which is how the system is supposed to work. The appeals court judge ordered a new trial. There was no 'they' 'wanting' anything in this who were in a position to impact it. Obviously crown argued their case in the appeal, and that's what supposed to happen.

The second trial was mistrialled after a day of evidence; they lost a juror who suffered a death in the family and had too few to go on. They proceeded with the third trial nearly immediately, there was minimal delay.

Ultimately a reasonable verdict was delivered. If acting to defend property you have to behave reasonably; you exit your house, can't sneak up on someone, surprise them, and then shoot them if they haven't presented the threat to you that justifies that. Any car thief is going to fuck off at the high port the second you shout at them. They're there to take stuff, not get in a fight. Khill was armed with a shotgun and very much able to yell at the thief from a position of cover with the shotgun ready to use if needed.


----------



## Good2Golf

OldSolduer said:


> In the local paper this morning there was a story about an fire in which two people died. It was arson and the alleged arsonist has been arrested and detained.
> 
> He was out on the streets - his previous charges were arson. So here we have a guy who is a proven arsonist allowed to walk the streets, and allegedly cause the deaths of two people.


Clearly the solution is for the Government to take away the fire permits of law abiding citizens and outlaw fires.


----------



## GK .Dundas

The case always struck me as as less of a confrontation and more of an ambush.
To honest however I am only familiar with the case through the media and mention of on line.
But I still based on the information I have stand by that.


----------



## Halifax Tar

brihard said:


> No, legal mistakes were made that necessitated appeal and a retrial. The judge has an important role to play in instructing a jury, and in this case the judge botched it the first time round- I think in part there had been relatively recent changes to the Crim Code regarding self defense, and this wasn't instructed correctly. That was appealed, which is how the system is supposed to work. The appeals court judge ordered a new trial. There was no 'they' 'wanting' anything in this who were in a position to impact it. Obviously crown argued their case in the appeal, and that's what supposed to happen.
> 
> The second trial was mistrialled after a day of evidence; they lost a juror who suffered a death in the family and had too few to go on. They proceeded with the third trial nearly immediately, there was minimal delay.
> 
> Ultimately a reasonable verdict was delivered. If acting to defend property you have to behave reasonably; you exit your house, can't sneak up on someone, surprise them, and then shoot them if they haven't presented the threat to you that justifies that. Any car thief is going to fuck off at the high port the second you shout at them. They're there to take stuff, not get in a fight. Khill was armed with a shotgun and very much able to yell at the thief from a position of cover with the shotgun ready to use if needed.



Why do we care so much about a miscreant and negative drain on society being put down ?  If Jon Styles hadn't been trying to steal a truck that night he wouldn't have been put down.  Its him and his actions that has left his family without his presence anymore. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.









						Christie Blatchford: Jury wasn't told about criminal record of intruder killed by Ontario homeowner
					

The jury also didn't see a tearful statement Peter Khill gave to police after he killed Jon Styres. It would have shown how distraught Khill really was after…




					nationalpost.com
				




Quote from article:


> The second chunk of evidence the jurors didn’t have was so-called “bad character” evidence about the 29-year-old Styres.
> 
> It was composed of five things – Styres’ criminal record, which showed that in 2013 he’d been convicted for dangerous driving and had failed to stop for police; the fact that at the time of his death he’d been facing charges relating to his alleged theft of motor vehicles, possession of stolen vehicles and automotive equipment, and two charges of breach of probation, all of which dated to June of 2015; a charge, later withdrawn, of assaulting a corrections officer while Styres was at a Toronto jail; a photograph of Styres posing with a rifle, possibly a sawed off shotgun, and a picture of a knife, with what appears to be a piece of metal shaped to look like a bullet on the handle, that was found in Styres’ pocket when he died.



And that's just what he'd been caught for.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suspect this young man was destined to meet his end in one way or another involving his criminal lifestyle.


----------



## brihard

Halifax Tar said:


> Why do we care so much about a miscreant and negative drain on society being put down ?  If Jon Styles hadn't been trying to steal a truck that night he wouldn't have been put down.  Its him and his actions that has left his family without his presence anymore. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.



We don't have the death sentence here, not even by the state. Force to defend yourself, and even a reasonable amount of force to arrest someone to protect your property, are OK under our law. But you don't get to kill someone for trying to steal. While I'm not shedding any tears over the thief's demise, the rule of law absolutely has to keep a grip on this. In Canada, lives are valued over property. The taking of a life is the most severe thing that can be done to someone and is irrevocable. The cost of a mistake cannot be made whole. 

We absolutely need stricter approaches to chronic offenders, both in bail reform and in sentencing. But that fix isn't meted out in the driveway with a shotgun.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Many people who do foolish things aren't habitual criminals.  In particular, some young men and sub-adults are prone to occasional pointless hooliganism.  While it's satisfying to imagine a guillotine dividing the interests of a housebreaker into two parts as he comes through a window, it would be a shame for it to happen to a temporarily irresponsible teenager.  Etc.


----------



## brihard

Brad Sallows said:


> While it's satisfying to imagine a guillotine dividing the interests of a housebreaker into two parts as he comes through a window



That's concerningly specific, lol. Somehow I doubt we'll see that in Jeld-Wen's product line.


----------



## Halifax Tar

brihard said:


> We don't have the death sentence here, not even by the state. Force to defend yourself, and even a reasonable amount of force to arrest someone to protect your property, are OK under our law. But you don't get to kill someone for trying to steal. While I'm not shedding any tears over the thief's demise, the rule of law absolutely has to keep a grip on this. In Canada, lives are valued over property. The taking of a life is the most severe thing that can be done to someone and is irrevocable. The cost of a mistake cannot be made whole.
> 
> We absolutely need stricter approaches to chronic offenders, both in bail reform and in sentencing. But that fix isn't meted out in the driveway with a shotgun.



I am well aware we have no death penalty, thank you.  Again, I don't agree, but I am aware. 

What seems to be the undercurrent I am hearing is that the rule of law, including the law surrounding bail and its conditions, is more and more being used to the advantage of the criminal, all levels of criminal behavior.  

Eventually, if things get bad enough, we will see more and more and more of this.  Law and order are important parts of a civil society. But they need to be seen to protect the innocents and prosecute the guilty.  I personally think that optic is being lost.  Perhaps every once in a while civil society has to be reset or re born ?



Brad Sallows said:


> Many people who do foolish things aren't habitual criminals.  In particular, some young men and sub-adults are prone to occasional pointless hooliganism.  While it's satisfying to imagine a guillotine dividing the interests of a housebreaker into two parts as he comes through a window, it would be a shame for it to happen to a temporarily irresponsible teenager.  Etc.



Sure.  And we can play what ifs all day.  What's up for discussion in the Khill case is about a career criminal.  But; if that irresponsible teenager puts themself in a position to be in danger, then again, win stupid prizes.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Halifax Tar said:


> Why do we care so much about a miscreant and negative drain on society being put down ?  If Jon Styles hadn't been trying to steal a truck that night he wouldn't have been put down.  Its him and his actions that has left his family without his presence anymore. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Christie Blatchford: Jury wasn't told about criminal record of intruder killed by Ontario homeowner
> 
> 
> The jury also didn't see a tearful statement Peter Khill gave to police after he killed Jon Styres. It would have shown how distraught Khill really was after…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote from article:
> 
> 
> And that's just what he'd been caught for.
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb here and suspect this young man was destined to meet his end in one way or another involving his criminal lifestyle.


I certainly don't care about the miscreant.  Guy had a long rap sheet and finally showed up at the wrong house.  

I always wonder, given the thousands of missing people in Canada, many with questionable/colourful histories, how many ended up buried in the woods somewhere?


----------



## Halifax Tar

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I certainly don't care about the miscreant.  Guy had a long rap sheet and finally showed up at the wrong house.
> 
> I always wonder, given the thousands of missing people in Canada, many with questionable/colourful histories, how many ended up buried in the woods somewhere?



Probably more than one.


----------



## Good2Golf

Halifax Tar said:


> I am well aware we have no death penalty, thank you. Again, I don't agree, but I am aware.


Well, except by an unjudicially imposed death penalty for non-compliance by an armed criminal against an innocent civilian in the commission of a crime on the citizen’s lawfully-held property…


----------



## daftandbarmy

Good2Golf said:


> Well, except by an unjudicially imposed death penalty for non-compliance by an armed criminal against an innocent civilian in the commission of a crime on the citizen’s lawfully-held property…


----------



## Kat Stevens

Absolutely. Lives over property. If I'm required to value the criminals life over my stuff, is he not equally required to value his life over my stuff? I find it farcical that some haywired nutsack can break into my home, with a weapon, and I'm required to give ground if possible. Fuck that shit.


----------



## Booter

If the rule of law wants to keep a grip on it- then the law needs to start treating criminals more harshly. People are frustrated. I believe that’s what HT is saying. He doesn’t care about the criminal because the criminal doesn’t care about the victim- and gets a dozen chances +

But brihard is correct that its not a solid plan- the Deck is stacked against folks trying to deal with it on their own.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Booter said:


> If the rule of law wants to keep a grip on it- then the law needs to start treating criminals more harshly. People are frustrated. I believe that’s what HT is saying. He doesn’t care about the criminal because the criminal doesn’t care about the victim- and gets a dozen chances +
> 
> But brihard is correct that its not a solid plan- the Deck is stacked against folks trying to deal with it on their own.



Yup you pretty well nailed it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

brihard said:


> We absolutely need stricter approaches to chronic offenders, both in bail reform and in sentencing. But that fix isn't meted out in the driveway with a shotgun.


If the system does not improve, expect more of the later. That is the compact between State and Citizen. The Police and Courts need to be seen doing their job or else.


----------



## dapaterson

Police also need to be held to professional standards, and not have the Crown diminish the import when their actions cross the line.

The two OPP officers who, after being told there was likely a kidnapped infant in a vehicle, regardless opened fire and killed the suspect and the infant should be facing murder charges; instead, they got the Blue discount to manslaughter.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Colin Parkinson said:


> If the system does not improve, expect more of the later. That is the compact between State and Citizen. The Police and Courts need to be seen doing their job or else.



We're working the same field.


----------



## mariomike

brihard said:


> Finally, in a third trial this fall, he was just convicted of manslaughter (acquitted of murder).



Also, a civil suit,



> Court documents filed on Jan. 31, 2018 lay out the suit filed by Hamilton’s Hooper Law Offices on behalf of Lindsay Hill and her daughters, age two and four.


----------



## Eaglelord17

Canada does still have the death penalty, just a really slow one. 'Life in prison' is simply death by age. Unfortunately we as a society lack the sense to see this and the resolve to deal with the problem quicker once they are arrested and convicted. Hanging a few of these career criminals who do nothing but harm society and others will do wonders to reduce the amount of crime being committed in this country if only by taking them out of the equation.


----------



## lenaitch

dapaterson said:


> Police also need to be held to professional standards, and not have the Crown diminish the import when their actions cross the line.
> 
> The two OPP officers who, after being told there was likely a kidnapped infant in a vehicle, regardless opened fire and killed the suspect and the infant should be facing murder charges; instead, they got the Blue discount to manslaughter.


I didn't realize the evidence was publicly available.

When it goes to trial, the Crown's case will likely be two-part; was the use of deadly force justified, and were they negligent in its deployment.

Regardless,  my read of the publicly available information says that the actions do not fit the definition of murder.

******

The big problem I have with capital punishment is the system that determines it is not infallible.  There are numerous cases where the system knew, 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that the offender was guilty, only to determine later that they were not.  If the argued answer is to create a better system, good luck with that.  It is a human-created system and we are not infallible.  It's a little late to say oopsie.


----------



## Halifax Tar

lenaitch said:


> The big problem I have with capital punishment is the system that determines it is not infallible.  There are numerous cases where the system knew, 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that the offender was guilty, only to determine later that they were not.  If the argued answer is to create a better system, good luck with that.  It is a human-created system and we are not infallible.  It's a little late to say oopsie.



It should be a tool in the box and only rolled out on the rarest of occasions.  Think Paul Bernardo level evil.


----------



## GR66

lenaitch said:


> The big problem I have with capital punishment is the system that determines it is not infallible.  There are numerous cases where the system knew, 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that the offender was guilty, only to determine later that they were not.  If the argued answer is to create a better system, good luck with that.  It is a human-created system and we are not infallible.  It's a little late to say oopsie.


Agree 100% with this.  While I do feel that certainly the perpetrators of some crimes are definitely deserving of death as punishment I am not prepared to risk executing an innocent person by mistake.  Our system is clearly not infallible and I'm not confident of where we can draw the line between being "sure" someone is guilty, being "really sure" someone is guilty and being "really, REALLY sure" someone is guilty.

If we start killing innocent people (even if we thought they were guilty) then does that make us much different than any other killers of innocent people?


----------



## Good2Golf

Halifax Tar said:


> It should be a tool in the box and only rolled out on the rarest of occasions.  Think Paul Bernardo *and Karla Holmolka* level evil.


FTFY


----------



## mariomike

lenaitch said:


> The big problem I have with capital punishment is the system that determines it is not infallible.  There are numerous cases where the system knew, 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that the offender was guilty, only to determine later that they were not.  If the argued answer is to create a better system, good luck with that.  It is a human-created system and we are not infallible.  It's a little late to say oopsie.



I doubt there is a solution that is satisfactory to everyone.



> If we execute murderers and there is in fact no deterrent effect, we have killed a bunch of murderers. If we fail to execute murderers, and doing so would in fact have deterred other murders, we have allowed the killing of a bunch of innocent victims. I would much rather risk the former. This, to me, is not a tough call.





> John McAdams - Marquette University/Department of Political Science, on deterrence


----------



## brihard

GR66 said:


> Agree 100% with this.  While I do feel that certainly the perpetrators of some crimes are definitely deserving of death as punishment I am not prepared to risk executing an innocent person by mistake.  Our system is clearly not infallible and I'm not confident of where we can draw the line between being "sure" someone is guilty, being "really sure" someone is guilty and being "really, REALLY sure" someone is guilty.



This is precisely my position as well.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I think Capital Punishment should be on the books, but only for very rare cases and the burden of proof must be very high, plus I think for cases involving multiple victims and preferably with the suspect caught at the same time as the offence. Even if it only frees up a few cells and guards. I think that it will allow the prison system to focus more resources on the other inmates. We don't have an infinite supply of prisons or guards. On the other side of the coin, more resources directed at youth to keep them from becoming criminals and getting to a point where they are not in and out of detention.


----------



## dapaterson

US experience suggests that the death penalty is more expensive per capita than life in prison.


----------



## Brad Sallows

All this sentiment about having a death penalty with a higher standard of proof.

Please to state standard in non-subjective - preferably rigorously mathematically quantifiable - terms.


----------



## GR66

Brad Sallows said:


> All this sentiment about having a death penalty with a higher standard of proof.
> 
> Please to state standard in non-subjective - preferably rigorously mathematically quantifiable - terms.


“I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.”​
― Jean Chrétien


----------



## brihard

We already have “beyond a reasonable doubt” for bare criminal conviction, and we still get that wrong sometimes. What higher standard is both achievable AND fairly implementable?

I don’t even need to argue to economic costs aspect of capital punishment versus prison, because capital punishment already fails on the first test of the possibility of errorless implementation before even needing to argue whether it’s more economical.


----------



## CBH99

GR66 said:


> “I don't know. A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof, and when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.”​
> ― Jean Chrétien


Exactly.  

Pretty hard to argue with that logic...


----------



## CBH99

dapaterson said:


> US experience suggests that the death penalty is more expensive per capita than life in prison.


...I know there's something in here I'm probably missing...

Life in prison = person gets out after sentence 

Death sentence = person serves their time, but then added cost of the procedure at the end?


----------



## mariomike

CBH99 said:


> Death sentence = person serves their time, but then added cost of the procedure at the end?



Plus legal fees?

From what I have read, some states are starting to go cheap on the last meals. Come on, Texas!

*"Texas is the only state that does not honor any special requests from death row inmates*."

Lethal injection is supposedly the new and improved method. But, reading reports of cases getting botched . 💉


----------



## dapaterson

CBH99 said:


> ...I know there's something in here I'm probably missing...
> 
> Life in prison = person gets out after sentence
> 
> Death sentence = person serves their time, but then added cost of the procedure at the end?


Legal fees on appeals, primarily.  Despite which there is credible evidence of factually innocent people being executed, in the name of "finality" from courts.


----------



## Booter

I’m drunk On a beach. It’s my anecdotal experience that we don’t need the death penalty- we need to do the penalties we have better.

When I was a young cowboy- the farmers saw me as their friend. They would arrest trespassers (at gunpoint) and thieves and they would call me and turn them over. Usually the suspect would be very excited to get into my custody and out of theirs. They didn’t say much. The suspects said less. And I nodded and took the person to jail. The system SEEMED to be reasonably functioning for everyone. 

Now. I am not the farmers friend- they hate me. They are frustrated with the system- and they go farther than they used to, the suspect laughs the system off- and I am arresting the same people at the same farms more often. 

On top of that- the farmers give me canned lines like “I feared for my life” rather than just honestly telling me what happened. The lawyer is now the friend. 

I don’t know what the answer is but we are headed in an awkward way because we refuse to deal with crime in a satisfactory way- yes we need to do root causes. Address disparity. Create opportunity, 

We ALSO have to support the everyday people who play by the rules because that is what allows society to function.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Booter said:


> We ALSO have to support the everyday people who play by the rules because that is what allows society to function.


Which is why I so persistently whine here about politicians who in part sustain their popularity with their "base" by pissing off people whose votes they never expect to have.


----------



## QV

Booter said:


> I’m drunk On a beach. It’s my anecdotal experience that we don’t need the death penalty- we need to do the penalties we have better.
> 
> When I was a young cowboy- the farmers saw me as their friend. They would arrest trespassers (at gunpoint) and thieves and they would call me and turn them over. Usually the suspect would be very excited to get into my custody and out of theirs. They didn’t say much. The suspects said less. And I nodded and took the person to jail. The system SEEMED to be reasonably functioning for everyone.
> 
> Now. I am not the farmers friend- they hate me. They are frustrated with the system- and they go farther than they used to, the suspect laughs the system off- and I am arresting the same people at the same farms more often.
> 
> On top of that- the farmers give me canned lines like “I feared for my life” rather than just honestly telling me what happened. The lawyer is now the friend.
> 
> I don’t know what the answer is but we are headed in an awkward way because we refuse to deal with crime in a satisfactory way- yes we need to do root causes. Address disparity. Create opportunity,
> 
> We ALSO have to support the everyday people who play by the rules because that is what allows society to function.



I'm sure there are a plethora of reasons why it has gotten this way. It's a shame but expected. Expect it to get worse.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

dapaterson said:


> US experience suggests that the death penalty is more expensive per capita than life in prison.


Maybe, but how do you measure that? Also where are the guards coming from? Someone that killed multiple people and is in jail for life and no parole, they are a constant threat to the guards and people they come in contact with. Do we include the cost of PTSD that the guards have, of disability insurance costs?


----------



## lenaitch

Colin Parkinson said:


> I think Capital Punishment should be on the books, but only for very rare cases and the burden of proof must be very high, plus I think for cases involving multiple victims and preferably with the suspect caught at the same time as the offence. Even if it only frees up a few cells and guards. I think that it will allow the prison system to focus more resources on the other inmates. We don't have an infinite supply of prisons or guards. On the other side of the coin, more resources directed at youth to keep them from becoming criminals and getting to a point where they are not in and out of detention.


I hear that argument and, although I don't agree, I get where it's coming from, but, as mentioned, what higher burden of prove than we have now?  At the end of the day, it is still people who hear the evidence and make a judgement against said higher standard.  Even before that, if it is somehow reserved for a certain level of criminal, how and who would make that determination to send it down that legal path?

In terms of the economic argument, if we are talking the heinous of the heinous, the money saved for the handful of prisoners would be a rounding error of the CSC budget.  Quite frankly, I'm quite happy to pay my share of the price to have the likes of Bernardo or Williams spend day after day staring at a wall and being alone with their thoughts for many, many years.


----------



## OldSolduer

Colin Parkinson said:


> Maybe, but how do you measure that? Also where are the guards coming from? Someone that killed multiple people and is in jail for life and no parole, they are a constant threat to the guards and people they come in contact with. Do we include the cost of PTSD that the guards have, of disability insurance costs?


Generally speaking murderers are much easier to handle than garden variety criminals. We have had serial killers here and I have never heard of any serious threats against Corrections staff. 
The worst ones are high profile inmates like Uncle Peter N - who use their notoriety to gain special privileges. And the threat of lawsuits works - and let's not forget the influence of the JHS who never met an inmate they didn't love.


----------



## Halifax Tar

OldSolduer said:


> Generally speaking murderers are much easier to handle than garden variety criminals. We have had serial killers here and I have never heard of any serious threats against Corrections staff.
> The worst ones are high profile inmates like Uncle Peter N - who use their notoriety to gain special privileges. And the threat of lawsuits works - and let's not forget the influence of the JHS who never met an inmate they didn't love.



When my dad was wrapping up his career at  Millhaven he told me that the worst were the jihadis, and they would convert large portions population of inmates.


----------



## mariomike

OldSolduer said:


> Generally speaking murderers are much easier to handle than garden variety criminals. We have had serial killers here and I have never heard of any serious threats against Corrections staff.
> The worst ones are high profile inmates like Uncle Peter N - who use their notoriety to gain special privileges. And the threat of lawsuits works - and let's not forget the influence of the JHS who never met an inmate they didn't love.



I worked part-time at the Don, on days off.  Didn't try to figure them out. Just counted heads and turned keys.

I remember when they used to hang murderers there.

In the States,



> First degree-murder can be punished by death when it involves any of the following aggravating factors:





> The murder was committed against any law enforcement officer, corrections official, corrections employee, probation and parole officer, emergency medical or rescue worker, emergency medical technician, paramedic or firefighter, who was engaged in the performance of official duties, and the defendant knew or reasonably should have known that the victim was a law enforcement officer, corrections official, corrections employee, probation and parole officer, emergency medical or rescue worker, emergency medical technician, paramedic or firefighter engaged in the performance of official duties.





Not sure if Canadians would go along with that.


----------



## OldSolduer

Halifax Tar said:


> When my dad was wrapping up his career at  Millhaven he told me that the worst were the jihadis, and they would convert large portions population of inmates.


That may work there - we have had a few that tried Islam but weren't good with Ramadan. Besides our overriding population is Indigenous - and they are not fans of jihadis.


----------



## Eaglelord17

Remember 110k a year (likely more now, this is a number from over a decade ago) to keep these arseholes alive in prison. Think about how many kids we can put through school, how much healthcare we can provide, and how much debt we could clear by getting rid of these individuals who have done nothing but harm society. 

Will the state make mistakes? Yes. But it does that currently. By that logic we shouldn’t jail anyone ever because what if we get it wrong and accidentally put a innocent behind bars? 

The reason it is so expensive in the states is their infinite appeal system. Canada wouldn’t have that problem with our system. 

I am also in favour of a 3-5 strike system. Commit 3-5 serious crimes and you get sentenced to death as you aren’t willing to reform or be a part of society. 

It is harsh but the reality is we all want the death penalty or more specifically we want them to ‘disappear and no longer be a problem’. Most are just too weak to accept what is required to get that problem to seize to exist. 

I am all for trying to get to the root of the issue and prevent crime, I am also all for alternative sentences which favour rehabilitation with good options. But some people refuse to do so and eventually society needs to cut their losses.


----------



## brihard

Eaglelord17 said:


> Remember 110k a year (likely more now, this is a number from over a decade ago) to keep these arseholes alive in prison. Think about how many kids we can put through school, how much healthcare we can provide, and how much debt we could clear by getting rid of these individuals who have done nothing but harm society.
> 
> Will the state make mistakes? Yes. But it does that currently. By that logic we shouldn’t jail anyone ever because what if we get it wrong and accidentally put a innocent behind bars?
> 
> The reason it is so expensive in the states is their infinite appeal system. Canada wouldn’t have that problem with our system.
> 
> I am also in favour of a 3-5 strike system. Commit 3-5 serious crimes and you get sentenced to death as you aren’t willing to reform or be a part of society.
> 
> It is harsh but the reality is we all want the death penalty or more specifically we want them to ‘disappear and no longer be a problem’. Most are just too weak to accept what is required to get that problem to seize to exist.
> 
> I am all for trying to get to the root of the issue and prevent crime, I am also all for alternative sentences which favour rehabilitation with good options. But some people refuse to do so and eventually society needs to cut their losses.



The number of cases that would actually potentially qualify for capital punishment (after a decade + of appeals) is negligible. The very minor savings from killing them instead of warehousing them would get eaten up immediately in legal costs, and would basically make no difference. "It would save us money" is high on the list of 'worst reasons to kill somebody".

The difference between execution and prison is that when an innocent person is found to have been imprisoned, they can be released and compensated. So far, for executions, that trick's only worked once, for some dude who had a shitty Easter a couple thousand years ago.

We could make the most serious offenders 'disappear and no longer be a problem' with a true life without parole for the most absolutely serious cases. That would also be more likely to survive Charter challenge.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Eaglelord17 said:


> Will the state make mistakes? Yes. But it does that currently. By that logic we shouldn’t jail anyone ever because what if we get it wrong and accidentally put a innocent behind bars?


If mistakes can happen, then "by that logic" we must not ever have a death penalty because it's beyond correction and compensation.

Comparatively, if "we get it wrong and accidentally put a innocent behind bars", there is ample time to figure it out and correct the mistake and compensate (somewhat) for the harm.


----------



## rnkelly

Lol at the shitty Easter line!


----------



## Good2Golf

brihard said:


> We could make the most serious offenders 'disappear and no longer be a problem' with a true life without parole for the most absolutely serious cases. That would also be more likely to survive Charter challenge.


Ummm…you’ve been watching recent news, right?









						Supreme Court’s decision to strike down life-without-parole law leads to sentencing changes   - The Globe and Mail
					

The Supreme Court’s decision in May in the case of Alexandre Bissonnette is having an effect on sentencing well beyond multiple murders, a Globe review of a legal database has found



					www.theglobeandmail.com


----------



## brihard

Good2Golf said:


> Ummm…you’ve been watching recent news, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Supreme Court’s decision to strike down life-without-parole law leads to sentencing changes   - The Globe and Mail
> 
> 
> The Supreme Court’s decision in May in the case of Alexandre Bissonnette is having an effect on sentencing well beyond multiple murders, a Globe review of a legal database has found
> 
> 
> 
> www.theglobeandmail.com



Yes; with sufficient government force of will (eg, recurrent use of the Notwithstanding Clause), that could be overcome. Any court objection to the severity and supposed disproportionality of true life without parole would also apply to capital punishment, so it’s not like executions are a way around the courts blocking life without parole.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

brihard said:


> The number of cases that would actually potentially qualify for capital punishment (after a decade + of appeals) is negligible. The very minor savings from killing them instead of warehousing them would get eaten up immediately in legal costs, and would basically make no difference. "It would save us money" is high on the list of 'worst reasons to kill somebody".
> 
> The difference between execution and prison is that when an innocent person is found to have been imprisoned, they can be released and compensated. So far, for executions, that trick's only worked once, for some dude who had a shitty Easter a couple thousand years ago.
> 
> We could make the most serious offenders 'disappear and no longer be a problem' with a true life without parole for the most absolutely serious cases. That would also be more likely to survive Charter challenge.


If you put strict limits onto who can be subject to capital punishment, then you can reduce that risk to pretty much zero. It would mean a number who should get it, won't.


----------



## brihard

Colin Parkinson said:


> If you put strict limits onto who can be subject to capital punishment, then you can reduce that risk to pretty much zero. It would mean a number who should get it, won't.


It would be an interesting thought exercise to try to devise a system that we're all confident government and the justice system still couldn't still manage to screw up.


----------



## Halifax Tar

There are times in the extreme when people should be put down.  Think Bernardo, Homolka, or Wortman (If he had been caught alive). 

A good list here, not sure how many are still alive:









						DANGEROUS OFFENDERS: "Worst of the worst" ranks swell slightly
					

Elric MacArthur, Travis Winsor and Michael Kozovski joined a growing list this year of “the worst of the worst” culprits in Canada’s prisons.




					torontosun.com


----------



## dapaterson

Guy Paul Morin might have a few thoughts about that.


----------



## Good2Golf

brihard said:


> Yes; with sufficient government force of will (eg, recurrent use of the Notwithstanding Clause), that could be overcome. Any court objection to the severity and supposed disproportionality of true life without parole would also apply to capital punishment, so it’s not like executions are a way around the courts blocking life without parole.


I’m not even thinking about capital punishment, just that life without parole is now deemed by the SCC to be unacceptable.  More and more, the rights of victims specifically and citizens in the larger view, are yielding to the rights/privileges of the criminals.


----------



## Eaglelord17

brihard said:


> The number of cases that would actually potentially qualify for capital punishment (after a decade + of appeals) is negligible. The very minor savings from killing them instead of warehousing them would get eaten up immediately in legal costs, and would basically make no difference. "It would save us money" is high on the list of 'worst reasons to kill somebody".
> 
> The difference between execution and prison is that when an innocent person is found to have been imprisoned, they can be released and compensated. So far, for executions, that trick's only worked once, for some dude who had a shitty Easter a couple thousand years ago.
> 
> We could make the most serious offenders 'disappear and no longer be a problem' with a true life without parole for the most absolutely serious cases. That would also be more likely to survive Charter challenge.


Charter can be changed, I would also say the wording is pretty clear. ‘Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.’ Death penalty can easily be part of fundamental justice. 

If the judges don’t like it, parliament can clarify the defination of the words. Such as stating the death penalty is both not cruel or unusual punishment. 

Judges serve to enforce the law, if they fail to do so (or in many cases such as the Mosque shooters, make up their own laws for sentencing, leading to successful appeals) they deserve to be canned. 


Brad Sallows said:


> If mistakes can happen, then "by that logic" we must not ever have a death penalty because it's beyond correction and compensation.
> 
> Comparatively, if "we get it wrong and accidentally put a innocent behind bars", there is ample time to figure it out and correct the mistake and compensate (somewhat) for the harm.


You cannot correct that mistake. It is irreparable. Just because some like to pretend that it can be fixed, it cannot be. Say you spend 10 years behind bars for a crime you didn’t commit, no amount of money will give you back your freedom. 

Again as I have said before, life in prison is the death penalty just with time being the executioner. What if you sentence someone to life in prison and they die a year later and turns out they didn’t do it? You still killed a man. Isn’t that not the same as executing them? 

Personally I would rather die than live amongst a bunch of criminals for a crime I didn’t commit, your mileage may vary. 

I also have no qualms about getting rid of the worst of society, if we did it on a more regular basis that cop which was just shot would be still walking among us.


----------



## OldSolduer

Good2Golf said:


> I’m not even thinking about capital punishment, just that life without parole is now deemed by the SCC to be unacceptable.  More and more, the rights of victims specifically and citizens in the larger view, are yielding to the rights/privileges of the criminals.


I am in agreement. The "system" is running scared of entities like the JHS or EFS who never met a criminal they did not love. The government - and it doesn't matter what party - is scared of lawsuits no matter how frivolous or full of bullshit the case us and even the average person on the street can see through the garbage. It appears that justice is blind - which is fine - but to be deaf and dumb and lack common sense is quite another.


----------



## YZT580

brihard said:


> The number of cases that would actually potentially qualify for capital punishment (after a decade + of appeals) is negligible. The very minor savings from killing them instead of warehousing them would get eaten up immediately in legal costs, and would basically make no difference. "It would save us money" is high on the list of 'worst reasons to kill somebody".
> 
> The difference between execution and prison is that when an innocent person is found to have been imprisoned, they can be released and compensated. So far, for executions, that trick's only worked once, for some dude who had a shitty Easter a couple thousand years ago.
> 
> We could make the most serious offenders 'disappear and no longer be a problem' with a true life without parole for the most absolutely serious cases. That would also be more likely to survive Charter challenge.


which is what Trudeau senior vowed would be the case when he did away with the death penalty.  Life means life is what he promised.


----------



## Good2Golf

Trudeau and Promise are pretty much two separate circles on a Venn diagram…


----------



## Brad Sallows

Eaglelord17 said:


> You cannot correct that mistake. It is irreparable. Just because some like to pretend that it can be fixed, it cannot be. Say you spend 10 years behind bars for a crime you didn’t commit, no amount of money will give you back your freedom.


You correct the mistake by acknowledging it and freeing the person (if still incarcerated).  One thing about people who have been wronged is that they can be compensated.

"Since we can't restore the period of incarceration to people wrongfully incarcerated, we might as well go ahead and have a death penalty, too."  What a dumb f*cking idea.


----------



## YZT580

Brad Sallows said:


> You correct the mistake by acknowledging it and freeing the person (if still incarcerated).  One thing about people who have been wronged is that they can be compensated.
> 
> "Since we can't restore the period of incarceration to people wrongfully incarcerated, we might as well go ahead and have a death penalty, too."  What a dumb f*cking idea.


provided that the person incarcerated never again breathes the air outside the prison walls and I do mean the walls not some glorified holiday camp.  There are some crimes that should permanently place the doer beyond the pale.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:


> I worked part-time at the Don, on days off.  Didn't try to figure them out. Just counted heads and turned keys.
> 
> I remember when they used to hang murderers there.
> 
> *In the States,*
> 
> Not sure if Canadians would go along with that.


Keep in mind that would be *a* State.  US criminal law is state-based.



Eaglelord17 said:


> Charter can be changed, I would also say the wording is pretty clear. ‘Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.’ Death penalty can easily be part of fundamental justice.
> 
> If the judges don’t like it, *parliament can clarify the defination of the words.* Such as stating the death penalty is both not cruel or unusual punishment.
> 
> Judges serve to enforce the law, if they fail to do so (or in many cases such as the Mosque shooters, make up their own laws for sentencing, leading to successful appeals) they deserve to be canned.


Parliament alone cannot amend the Constitution.  See the 'amending formula' sections.  We have 100% failure track record at Constitutional amendment - across several governments - except those minor ones impacting a single province, to the point that it is political kryptonite.


----------

