# Cadets with Reserves on FTXs...



## Argyll_2347 (2 May 2001)

Have any cadets here ever been on an exercise with their affiliated unit?  My CO promised me that we will be going, but in September.  I trust him, but I have heard about that it is against the rules, and I have heard it is not.

Also, what do the reserves/reg force guys think about cadets participating?

Albainn Gu-Brath


----------



## the patriot (2 May 2001)

It‘s a great idea in theory, but there maybe some different ways of approaching this.  Instead of going on a Reserve or Regular Force exercise, have some soldiers from your affiliated unit plan out an FTX and accompany your cadet unit on an exercise.  Thereby they would be providing you guidance, while you still had control over the FTX.  For example, a weekend where you would play "Flags" and apply all your Map and Compass and Fieldcraft knowledge at a location such as the Niagra escarpment.  How‘s that sound?  

And by the way, why don‘t you head up this section of the War Diary as a Moderator?  Your contributions are well thought out and noticed by all.

-the patriot-


----------



## ender (2 May 2001)

I agree with the Patriot.  On our ex‘s we are usually moving around a lot, not getting much sleep and doing engineer specific tasks that cadets wouldn‘t be allowed to help out on.  It really wouldn‘t work.  However, I think that more communication between the unit and our affiliated cadet unit might be usefull, as per Patriots suggestion of having reserve soldiers help out with your ex.


----------



## RCA (4 May 2001)

I have no problem with cadets coming out with the battery for a live FTX. But autourizations have to go all the way up the chian and back down (both chains of command). It is a long tedious and drawnout affair and you must have all your T‘s crossed and I‘s dotted and that doesn‘t even guarentee approval. I agree with patriot, its easier for you to plan the ex and ask your affiliated unit to join you. A lot less hassle and paperwork.


----------



## echo (4 May 2001)

it‘d be pretty cool if my corp went on an ex with tha real gghg‘s.
FRICKKEN ARMOURED COPRS MAN!!!!!!!!


----------



## spacemarine (10 Jun 2001)

Our corps goes with our affiliated Regiment about 4 times a year.  We get the same amount of ammo as the regular soldiers and we are supervised by a Lt from the unit, but we usually run as a seperate platoon and play enemy force.  Sometimes we‘re mixed in with guys that have finished their QL2 and some senior NCOs and officers.


----------



## q_1966 (24 Nov 2004)

So much politics, you know the old army saying "Hurry Up & Wait"

- Shawn


----------



## Da_man (24 Nov 2004)

Cadets would never go on ex with a unit im not even allowed to go until i finish SQ...  The best you could do is to see them on the range, standing 50 m behind.


----------



## Fraser.g (24 Nov 2004)

Da_man said:
			
		

> Cadets would never go on ex with a unit im not even allowed to go until i finish SQ...   The best you could do is to see them on the range, standing 50 m behind.



You are correct that you are not permitted to go into the field until you pass your SQ course but cadets are another matter. There is never any expectation that they function as a trained reservist but only as cadets.

In the past we have had them out on exes and even on concentrations like RV or the En gaurd series. In all occasions there are restrictions.Some of these are to do with accommodations sleeping arrangements, supervision, weapons handling etc.

It takes a conciderable amount of effort on both sides of the house to make it happen but it is possible. The liability issue has caused many COs to shy away from bringing their affiliated cadet units out with them but that is not to say that it is impossible.


----------



## chrisf (24 Nov 2004)

We had a couple of dozen cadets show up during a weekend that we were doing some trades skills via stands... we let them set up a vixam, showed them around the trucks, etc. The linemen had great fun... cadets make a great automatic all terrain line layers.


----------



## Garbageman (24 Nov 2004)

Air Cadets get to fly in CF aircraft, Sea Cadets get to sail on CF ships, so why not allow Army Cadets to train with their affiliated units.  After all, that's what they're there for:

CATO 11-33, para. 4 "Affiliated units are expected to support their cadet corps/squadrons..."

Further, para. 6 reads: "Cadets may participate in training or activities of the affiliated unit as deemed appropriate by the cadet unit CO and the affiliated unit commander once approved by the Region Cadet Officer (RCO)."

http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/1133_b.pdf


----------



## zerhash (24 Nov 2004)

ive sortof been on ex with cadets... basicly we would do our own things and the only time we say the cadets was when they watched us do a fire power demo


----------



## zerhash (24 Nov 2004)

Garbageman said:
			
		

> CATO 11-33, para. 4 "Affiliated units are expected to support their cadet corps/squadrons..."



we let them parade with us!
isnt that enough?


----------



## Garbageman (24 Nov 2004)

zerhash said:
			
		

> we let them parade with us!
> isnt that enough?


If you think that parading once a week is a fair and accurate representation of what your unit does, then yes, I suppose that is enough.  If not, which is what I suspect is the case, then we have a different story.


----------



## zerhash (24 Nov 2004)

fact is there are too many things that we do that we cant include the cadets in

we are running an army not a day care.

Yes. involvement is minimal to rememberance day parades and such and maybe the odd ex. But how much more do you want to include them? 1 day a week for the reserves is hardly enough time for ourselves let alone including the cadets in our plans.


----------



## Scott (24 Nov 2004)

I think that RN PRN brought up a very good point, liability.

Having said that, what better way to foster an interest in the CF then by getting the Cadets out there to see what their affiliated unit does at work? I think it would go far to solidify in them the pride in their affiliated units and serve to attract them, in their future, to that unit. 



			
				zerhash said:
			
		

> we are running an army not a day care.



That's why they have Officers.


----------



## D-n-A (24 Nov 2004)

spacemarine said:
			
		

> Our corps goes with our affiliated Regiment about 4 times a year.   We get the same amount of ammo as the regular soldiers and we are supervised by a Lt from the unit, but we usually run as a seperate platoon and play enemy force.   Sometimes we're mixed in with guys that have finished their QL2 and some senior NCOs and officers.




So, your Cadet corp goes on excercises with your affiliated unit, an are givin weapons and ammo, and run around  playing enemy force or your own platoon, something doesn't sound right there... Maybe Cadets in the '80s an prior did stuff like this, but I can't see it happening now.


----------



## Slim (24 Nov 2004)

Used to be done quite a bit, back in the day.


----------



## Garbageman (24 Nov 2004)

zerhash said:
			
		

> fact is there are too many things that we do that we cant include the cadets in
> 
> we are running an army not a day care.


Where do you think a great deal of the recruits for that army come from?   One of the primary goals of the cadet system is to foster an interest in the CF, and there's no better way to do this than by showing them exactly what members of the CF do.

Case in point, the affiliated unit (441 Tactical Fighter Sqn) of the cadet sqn I work with flew a CF-18 across the country so that our cadets could have a look at the aircraft and speak with the pilot.   That kind of thing has a huge impact with cadets, and goes a long way in getting them keen on the CF.

If the CF thought that cadets was only a "day care", they wouldn't be investing millions of dollars each year into the program.   Glad to see that you hold the program in such high regard - the MND, CDS, and Canadian taxpayers would seem to disagree with you.


----------



## sgt_mandal (25 Nov 2004)

Garbageman said:
			
		

> Case in point, the affiliated unit (441 Tactical Fighter Sqn) of the cadet sqn I work with



There are Air Cadet sqns with affiliated reg/reserve units?!?! I want one  lol. But seriously, this is the first I've ever heard of Air Cadets with affiliated units. Does it happen often?


----------



## dutchie (25 Nov 2004)

MikeL said:
			
		

> So, your Cadet corp goes on excercises with your affiliated unit, an are givin weapons and ammo, and run around   playing enemy force or your own platoon, something doesn't sound right there... Maybe Cadets in the '80s an prior did stuff like this, but I can't see it happening now.



Believe it. It has happened a lot in the past at our unit, and is happening again soon. Cadets will be acting as en force, alongside BMQ/SQ qualified troops, with Militia NCOs supervising. All have weapons and ammo.


----------



## Scott (25 Nov 2004)

FSgt_mandal said:
			
		

> There are Air Cadet sqns with affiliated reg/reserve units?!?! I want one  lol. But seriously, this is the first I've ever heard of Air Cadets with affiliated units. Does it happen often?



When I was with Cadets we were affiliated with Inch's MH Sqn out of Shearwater, NS. Even got to go for a ride in the Sea King once.....and we came back!! Sorry Inch, couldn't resist.

Good supporting points from people here wanting to foster an interest in the CF, I like to think that should be one of the major aims of the Cadet movement and one of the goals for members of the affiliated Reg or Res units. Again, in Cadets you have future members of said units, why not expose them to as much as possible/safe to keep that interest alive?


----------



## beach_bum (25 Nov 2004)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Believe it. It has happened a lot in the past at our unit, and is happening again soon. Cadets will be acting as en force, alongside BMQ/SQ qualified troops, with Militia NCOs supervising. All have weapons and ammo.



It used to happen quite regularly, though cadets now fall under tighter restrictions.  They are allowed to go on EX with a unit as long as they are over 16.  They are allowed to participate in things like rappelling, but are not allowed to act as enemy force.  Nor are they allowed to use the weapons.  They are not allowed to handle automatic weapons.


----------



## gt102 (25 Nov 2004)

beach_bum said:
			
		

> They are not allowed to handle automatic weapons.



?... Yet at camp we do...


----------



## beach_bum (25 Nov 2004)

According to the new gun control laws (which cadets fall under and are supposed to obey) they are not allowed to.


----------



## primer (25 Nov 2004)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Believe it. It has happened a lot in the past at our unit, and is happening again soon. Cadets will be acting as en force, alongside BMQ/SQ qualified troops, with Militia NCOs supervising. All have weapons and ammo.



I would love to know what unit would let cadets act as en force Giving them weapons and Blank Ammo is Breaking   THE LAW . I have been on weekend FTXs with our support unit for the past 5 years and not once did cadets act as en force or carry a restricted weapon (BILL C-??? will find it )They were treated like young soldiers. There has to be at least one CIC officer out with them NO CIs...


----------



## primer (25 Nov 2004)

It would be BILL C-68 

The act was changed do to the fact that the FEDREAL GOVERNMENT WAS BREAKING THERE OWN RULES on restricted weapons. Hence Militia and law enforcement


----------



## primer (25 Nov 2004)

Well said MR Piper 

So have you learned your drill yet on your BMQ yet  ;D


----------



## dano (25 Nov 2004)

Here is a link to answer some questions people may have with Cadets using firearms.
http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/compliance/bulletins/cadets/bulletin-1_e.asp


----------



## Garbageman (25 Nov 2004)

Some more info that would seem to refute cadets acting as enemy force, at least in Central Region (i.e. Ontario):

CRCO 1803, para 5:  "Tactical exercises with weapons (real or simulated) and "war games" are forbidden."
http://www.central.cadets.ca/crco/1803.pdf

Seems pretty clear to me.


----------



## Burrows (25 Nov 2004)

> The term "cadet organizations" in the Firearms Act refers to the Department of National Defence/Canadian Forces (DND/CF) sponsored cadet organizations (CCO/JCR), which include the Royal Canadian Sea Cadets, the Royal Canadian Army Cadets, the Royal Canadian Air Cadets and the Junior Canadian Rangers.
> 
> Under the Firearms Act, a member of the CCO/JCR under the control and supervision of the Canadian Forces is exempt from the possession provisions of the Firearms Act. This means that a young person (12 to 17 years old) who is a member of the CCO/JCR does not have to obtain a licence to handle firearms, as long as they are under the control and supervision of the Canadian Forces. A CCO/JCR Civilian Instructor, while acting on behalf of and under the authority of the Canadian Forces also is exempt from the possession provisions of the Firearms Act.



Doesnt this mean that while under CF supervision they are exempt from the firearms restriction? thats what Im reading it as..


----------



## Inch (25 Nov 2004)

scott1nsh said:
			
		

> When I was with Cadets we were affiliated with Inch's MH Sqn out of Shearwater, NS. Even got to go for a ride in the Sea King once.....and we came back!! Sorry Inch, couldn't resist.



You sonofa...... We always come back, just sometimes we get a ride from someone else!

Burrows, that's what I read as well. Where did you find that quote?


----------



## Burrows (25 Nov 2004)

http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/compliance/bulletins/cadets/bulletin-1_e.asp 

I took some of the text and added a nice little [ Quote ]  [ / Quote ] tag around it. LOL

It even goes into saying that only members of the Canadian Cadet Organisation or the Junior Canadian Rangers are exempt...Not boyscouts or anything non cadet related..this can only make me think that we would be exempt...or that someone got paid BIG MONEY to write that...I like the first one..


----------



## Garbageman (25 Nov 2004)

Cadets are indeed exempt from the Firearms Act, as previous posts have spelled out.  Of course, this only applies to CF weapons, under proper (i.e. CIC) supervision.  This is why they're able to go on a range or carry rifles on parade.  However, running around in the field with weapons would almost certainly be seen to in contradiction to the CRCO I quoted previously (no tactical scenarios or war games).


----------



## sgt_mandal (26 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> If it isn't anything that is against rules, could someone explain what's been going on with the RHFC in Kitchener, Ontario?   It would be great to go out for a day or weekend with them (they're our AFU), but according to our CO they're "Having difficulties" between our Corps and the RHFC.   Does anyone know what they are and if they're going to be fixed?   It would be awesome to go out with them for a while and see some things that they do, and we have some of the Reservists from the regiment that come to teach us, but we've never had an FTX with them.   Anyone know why?



If that's all your CO told you, that's all you need to know.


----------



## Sgt.Fitzpatrick (28 Nov 2004)

Cadets will learn a lot of good from this. On the hand some reservist will be p*ss off.  If this does happen I think the more older cadets should go with the reservist on these FTX. :warstory:


----------



## primer (28 Nov 2004)

Garbageman said:
			
		

> Cadets are indeed exempt from the Firearms Act, as previous posts have spelled out.   Of course, this only applies to CF weapons, under proper (i.e. CIC) supervision.   This is why they're able to go on a range or carry rifles on parade.   However, running around in the field with weapons would almost certainly be seen to in contradiction to the CRCO I quoted previously (no tactical scenarios or war games).



Well said 
Only Sr Cadets (ARMY) above of 15 or 16 and A qualified silver Star may handle a restricted weapon (C-7)Trg with a Support Unit  I may be mistaken. 
But cadets can only carry # 4 or # 7 Rifles on parade not Drill C-7s or real C-7s


----------



## Slim (28 Nov 2004)

Are the old Lee Enfields still around for drill and cenotaph duty?


----------



## primer (28 Nov 2004)

Yes they are


----------



## primer (28 Nov 2004)

Garbageman said:
			
		

> Some more info that would seem to refute cadets acting as enemy force, at least in Central Region (i.e. Ontario):
> 
> CRCO 1803, para 5:   "Tactical exercises with weapons (real or simulated) and "war games" are forbidden."
> http://www.central.cadets.ca/crco/1803.pdf
> ...



And a little more INFO read

Appendix 3, Use of the C7/8 rifle

http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=14-41

I have planned a C-7 shoot on 3 Dec with my Sr cadets that qualify (The hardest thing is finding an RSO)


The New RCO is Great in Centrel Region (BEWARE IF YOU BREAK THE RULES) :'(

FYI


----------



## Northern Touch (28 Nov 2004)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Why wouldn't the Reservists like that?



Because they probably don't wanna be on FTX's with untrained civilians.


----------



## Slim (28 Nov 2004)

about the same reason thatthe regs, for the most part, don't care to have the reserves around. That and they (the reserves) break everything then go home, or take your summer holidays away. But its all been said before I guess.

Slim


----------



## sgt_mandal (28 Nov 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> Are the old Lee Enfields still around for drill and cenotaph duty?



We have about 20 of them that we use.


----------



## Sgt_McWatt (29 Nov 2004)

Our corp has an abundance of those old .22 Lee Endfields. I remember we used to go out on shooting days each cadet would get issued a rifle and we would take down the serial number. So that it was one man one kit. If you lose or misplace your weapon. You don't shoot. We also have 2 3.03's I don't know why though??
Regards,


----------



## The_Falcon (1 Dec 2004)

primer said:
			
		

> Well said
> Only Sr Cadets (ARMY) above of 15 or 16 and A qualified silver Star may handle a restricted weapon (C-7)Trg with a Support Unit   I may be mistaken.
> But cadets can only carry # 4 or # 7 Rifles on parade not Drill C-7s or real C-7s



The C7 is actually a prohibited weapon under the firearms act, as it can fire in automatic.  The Civillian AR-15 rifle (and variants) are considered restricted weapons.


----------



## NavyGrunt (1 Dec 2004)

however they are moving to ban these as well. I just took my FAC and they discussed at length the fact that come fall 2005 they wont be sold anymore. The AR-15 civi varient


Edited for clarity


----------



## sgt_mandal (1 Dec 2004)

Are you talking abuot the C7?!


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (1 Dec 2004)

Mandal, Aaron is referring to the AR15.  :


----------



## sgt_mandal (1 Dec 2004)

huh  ???
an elabouration would be appreciated  ;D


----------



## Garbageman (1 Dec 2004)

Mandal, this is how I interpret it:

In Canada, The C-7 is a PROHIBITED weapon (i.e. civies cannot buy one).

The AR-15 is a RESTRICTED weapon, and it sounds like it will soon also be prohibited (civies can buy one, but not for much longer).

Cadets (with many restrictions and parameters) can still fire the C-7 as these regulations only apply to civies under the FAC licencing system.

Clear as mud?


----------



## sgt_mandal (1 Dec 2004)

ooooOOOOooo ok, I understand now, thanks.


----------



## my72jeep (5 Dec 2004)

Cadets are the next reserves, It only takes a little bit of of your time to take a few senior NCM's out and use them in non combat roles they will love it and you will have a new crop of recruits the next year. ant to the one who said we get as much ammo as the others your CO is a charge Parade waiting to happen cadets are not to fire blanks or use pyro at all!


----------



## q_1966 (6 Dec 2004)

good point

-Shawn


----------



## 1feral1 (6 Dec 2004)

At our unit we support the cadets with kit and manning, and occasionally assist in drill with them on their parade nights, which are on Fridays here.

We have on occasion taken them on exercises during their school holidays, and some have stayed with us for days.

The problem being Australia wants to distance cadets from combat training, and there was a time we would have a few cadets per gun crew, and carry out the same duties shy of carrying small arms, but manning and firing the 105mm Hamels was standard. Now they must watch from a distance, etc.

We oftne too have them around our tech Spt are, showing them how we maintain the 105s and other stuff.

The Cadet organisation here in Australia is very good, and ARes units and the ARA often get many former cadets signing on with them.


Cadets here wear AUSCAM uniforms specifically made for cadet use. The same AUSCAM ptrn, but the pockets different, and there is no and infrared 'spray' used on the material.

They wear the webbing and the packs, but the older types. Boots are black GPs and not the tan ones we have.

233 RCU's drill is in many cases better than the supporting Army units.


Cheers,

Wes
The Cadet unit we support is the 233 RCU (Regional Cadet Unit) out of the Rockdale MUD, Kogarah. A great unit ran by good people, and in 2000, a contingent was sesnt to Gallipoli for Anzac Day.


----------



## Da_man (6 Dec 2004)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> The C7 is actually a prohibited weapon under the firearms act, as it can fire in automatic.   The Civillian AR-15 rifle (and variants) are considered restricted weapons.




arent they prohibited wpns?

edit: nevermind


----------



## Yeoman (7 Dec 2004)

I've hade cadets with me on a couple of ranges and a couple of FTX's back when I was in the MO. My CO brought the idea up; sounded not to shabby.
of all the times I've worked with the cadets in the militia, I didn't have any major problems while working with the kids. they were very enthusiastic about working with us, and learning some stuff that they didn't already know. I made some good friends with some of those cadets and even got them to join the militia.
I'd willing work with them again.
Greg


----------



## Burrows (7 Dec 2004)

ArmyBoi,

sounds like a good concept and I wouldnt mind doing it except that many units dont have as many NCMs on strength as cadets in the corps.  Perhaps if the NCMs were Sec Comds or something...


----------



## Kendrick (7 Dec 2004)

I'd take a cadet along.  Kind of like a Big Brothers program thing.


----------



## condor888000 (7 Dec 2004)

Or you could pass it up the chain of command now and save yourself a couple of years...


----------



## condor888000 (7 Dec 2004)

Too bad, but still, I'd make the suggestion. Things may improve. As well, you'd be showing that little thing called initiative. Always a good thing.


----------



## Q.Y. Ranger (7 Dec 2004)

My CO told me and the other seniours, that he is trying to get us on and FTX with the regiment. Also, we have a few guys from the Regiment come on FTX's with us, and i agree that its easyer that way.


----------



## Kendrick (7 Dec 2004)

The best way is to write a memo about it and pass it up.  Like they said, doesn't matter if you don't have that high of a rank.  If the idea's good, it will be tossed around.  All you have to do is make it "official" by writing that memo.
Having reserve people go on cadet FTX could be an idea, however, there's the issue of pay there.  Not all reserve people have a lot of free time to give out.


----------



## condor888000 (7 Dec 2004)

True. Let me just use the ex. of my sqn. When we go to the bush, our AFU comes with to provide med support (they're a med company) as well as general duties that we can't preform due to time restraints or other such things. For ex. when we are in classes, they are the ones watching the fires. Also, they show us some small things, like how to put up the mod/bell tents and how to properly light the Coleman stoves and immersion heaters. Good thing, year before we were affiliated, one of the seniors messed up and we had a flaming heater go flying through the air!  ;D

As to the pay thing, I do believe that they are being paid for the time they spend with us.


----------



## dano (7 Dec 2004)

In regards to the pay, could that be the stem of the problem?

Perhaps the unit asks for volunteers, and unless they get a certain quota of volunteers they will not send out any men. That means they don't have to pay them for something that does not contribute to the units effort.


----------



## Kendrick (7 Dec 2004)

Two things to remember here regarding reserve members.  
Most of us are either students, or employed, or in my case, both.  5 courses in university, plus I drive a big rig truck as a part time job.  I need my weekend money to pay rent and food and bills.  Leaving on an FTX on a voluntary basis with cadets means dropping 25% of my monthly income.  That is a  lot of money when you're on a tight budget.  And if I take time off, like right now, it's to spend in books cramming like a madman for finals.

Now I'm an extreme case.  Not everyone is that strung out with time and money.  Would I be done with school and have free weekends, I'd do it on a voluntary basis.  It looks just as good in a resume as volunteering with the Big Brothers 

Here's another issue.  The regiment pays for the member.  The regiment is also on a tight budget.  So for the pay problem, the regiment might just not want to waste the little work days they have for actual training on such a project.  Of course there's always ways around this, like splitting wages between the regiment and the corps and whatnot.  

As for asking for volunteers, I've never heard such a call.  

Personnaly, I'm all for a kind of a program like this and I like the idea.  And I think I might toss it around with some people at the regiment.


----------



## condor888000 (7 Dec 2004)

The way I understand it, is that 28 Med (AFU) asks for volunteers to send. We normally have four come with us. 28 Med takes care of the pay, though that may not be correct, I'll see if I can get back to you on it, and they use the time to make sure they still have a decent idea of what they're doing. As they're a med company and we're teens in the woods...we tend to need them!


----------



## Kendrick (7 Dec 2004)

If they'd ask for volunteers I'm sure a few people would go for it.  Especially those with former cadet experiences.  Again it's all about the regiment wanting to fork out the money.


----------

