# Who'll be the next CDS? Speculation here, please!!



## fireman1867

Here is the link;

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071002/hillier_ottawa_071002/20071002?hub=TopStories


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## mz589

Where are all the Tory shills now?


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## Mike Baker

Oh say it ain't so, Uncle Rick?!?! Well, I must say, he is still one heck of CDS, soldier, and a man in general(no pun intended   ).


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## RHFC_piper

Well... it was a nice army while it lasted... but we all knew the dream would end sometime.


Here's hoping his replacement is as great a CDS as Gen. Hillier...  (all we can do is hope)








This article actually has me bummed out a bit...


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## Franko

His tenure is up....here's hoping for either smilin' Walt Natynczyk or Gen. Leslie.

Seems Taylor got his facts straight before spouting off though.

Regards


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## RCR Grunt

If General Rick Hillier and Lt.Col. Omer Lavoie had a child together, I would follow that child to the gates of hell on a mission to serve ice cream, no questions asked.


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## aesop081

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Well... it was a nice army while it lasted... but we all knew the dream would end sometime.



Yeah because we all know that as soon as an AF or Navy general gets in there...its BOHICA for the army right ?


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## armyvern

Damn.  

Hopefully General Hillier's replacement will bring much to the table and serve the CF just as steadfastly and professionally.



And Vern is pensionable in January ... ~whew~


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## Reccesoldier

Since when did CTV speculation and "insider information" gain the status of gospel here?

Here's to hoping they're all wrong... again.


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## The Bread Guy

Hey, let's see who's in charge of the government when it comes time to name a replacement, no?  Who knows what an election, whenever it happens, might bring....


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## Command-Sense-Act 105

Journalistic accuracy at its finest:



> Possible successors include Vice-Admiral Drew Robertson and Maj.-Gen. Andrew Leslie


.

Last I saw, the CLS was a LGen.  It's not like there are a lot of them hanging around so you can lose one here and there...


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## JasonSkald

What happens when the top-ranking officer in the miltiary is replaced? Mandatory retirement? There's no higher or equivalent position for him to go within the military, right?


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## Jorkapp

> What happens when the top-ranking officer in the miltiary is replaced? Mandatory retirement? There's no higher or equivalent position for him to go within the military, right?



Not necessarily. There are positions (though likely very few) for Generals who aren't CDS. Gen. Henault (Hillier's predecessor as CDS) is now the chairman of NATO's military committee.


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## Hunteroffortune

Do we seriously believe a rumour? From what I have seen, the media likes to make problems where none exist. Is Dion in trouble? Media changes the tune. HUMMM Could this be a planned story to divide the public? It isn't ONLY Hillier who has made the military proud again, he couldn't do it with the Liberals, they did nothing for the military over 13 years. It took the Conservatives to support the military, before he got results. Remember that one fact. 

I think the media is making much out of nothing, shame on them. Maybe Hillier wants to become an MP? Or, he might actually want to retire. Rumours.....wait and see.


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## WLSC

I agree, wait and see...  Remember, in politic, a week is eternity, imagine 5 month... :


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## IN HOC SIGNO

It could be the Navy 's turn at the helm folks....not everyone in uniform is Army. Vice Admiral Robertson is a very capable guy. I would think that after three years in that meat grinder of a job Gen Hillier is ready to move on. As others have pointed out this is a speculation piece at best and it will be interesting to see what actually happens.


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## 54/102 CEF

Ref the CTV coverage of the event 

Who ever heard of a departure ceremony beside the Dumpsters at Cartier Square?


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## CdnArtyWife

Good point IHS,

In fact IRC didn't Hillier actually bump the Navy out of their turn at CDS?? I would think that Robertson is a shoe-in for the next in line. As much as I'd personally like to see Leslie in that position, he will be ready in three to six years when the Army gets their turn again. He wants the time to grow as CLS first. He's humble enough to know when he's not quite ready for a position.

As for Hillier...he doesn't seem to be the type to just get out after his tenure is over...who knows...perhaps a political posting somewhere running an Embassy or something? The sky is the limit...and then again, he may just want to go home to the rock and settle down. Possiblities are endless...and as many have pointed out...speculation is pointless.


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## ArmyRick

Too bad, General Hillier, it was great working for ya   

There aren't "turns" anymore when it comes to CDS, best man for the job.


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## RHFC_piper

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yeah because we all know that as soon as an AF or Navy general gets in there...its BOHICA for the army right ?




I think you're reading into it too much...  Perhaps I should have said "it was a nice *military* while it lasted...".

IMO, It doesn't matter what trade the CDS comes from as long as they're doing the job right... and since Gen. Hillier has been CDS, we've seen nothing but good in the forces in general.   A new CDS is like a new Prime minister (or politician in general), you roll the dice and hope for the best, 'cause you don't know if the new one is going to screw around with things as they are.

I think Hillier has done a great job with all the elements of the CF... I just use "army" as a generic term across the board, not just land forces.




btw...  what is BOHICA?


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## George Wallace

So far what I have heard on the radio makes my stomach churn.  What kind of politicians and bureaucrats do we have running this country?  Sounds like they are sorely lacking in self esteem if their egos are so hurt by the character of General Hillier.  Aren't they elected and appointed to do their best for this country, or are they all just there to line their own pockets and resumes?

Silly questions, I know........but it really makes me sick at the pettiness of our elected officials.


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## geo

CdnArtyWife said:
			
		

> Good point IHS,
> 
> In fact IRC didn't Hillier actually bump the Navy out of their turn at CDS?? I would think that Robertson is a shoe-in for the next in line. As much as I'd personally like to see Leslie in that position, he will be ready in three to six years when the Army gets their turn again. He wants the time to grow as CLS first. He's humble enough to know when he's not quite ready for a position.


Huh.... Leslie won't vegetate in the CLS spot for another 3 to 6 years.... won't happen.
Leslie was named CLS in June of 2006.  Unless a spot opens up @ a higher level soon, his time will be up in June 2009.

Given that Natynczyk has a similar background as Hillier, Armoured, served as DCO of the US 2nd Corps; you can probably expect him to be the one with the most seamless transition BUT, there are many competent officers waiting for their turn at the brass ring.


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## KPR

I'm sorry but I think we shouldn't roll over for this one, rumors like this in Ottawa are always right . Gen. Hillier is the best thing that has happen to the CF in a long time . I like PM Harper but they want to put in another lap dog as CDS. This is wrong headed because we have the right man here to do the job , things are going to get even dicer in Afghanistan in the next year or so . Gen. Hillier is an absolutely incredibly hard working passionate soldier.  I have seen him head up to Trenton then leave for my Son's school in Perth Ont.. which is just a small rural High school and spend a couple of hours with a class to personally thank them for sending letters and posters to the soldiers in Afghanistan talking to them one on one about the mission , then same day head to the Senators Game for a support the troops rally that night .

I don't know how to start a petition on the net but I wish someone would , believe me they listen to something like this and the timing is right . Here is the P.M. email address in the meantime if you want Gen. Hillier to stay then tell them.  pm@pm.gc.ca


Cheers, Ken


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## GAP

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So far what I have heard on the radio makes my stomach churn.  What kind of politicians and bureaucrats do we have running this country?  Sounds like they are sorely lacking in self esteem if their egos are so hurt by the character of General Hillier.  Aren't they elected and appointed to do their best for this country, or are they all just there to line their own pockets and resumes?
> 
> Silly questions, I know........but it really makes me sick at the pettiness of our elected officials.




Scared ones. They finally ran into a CDS who could out politic, out speak, out perform them, and they got rid of him ASAP.


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## Loachman

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> since Gen. Hillier has been CDS, we've seen nothing but good in the forces in general.



Well, there's that little matter of the messy new command structure...

I am still wondering "why?" (regarding that command structure), but I remain a Hillier fan nonetheless. I first worked with him when he was OC Recce Squadron and that was a hoot (always enjoyable, but he made it more interesting and fun) and have flown him many times over the years since then.

The only other OC Recce Squadron that I distinctively remember from around then was Mark Davis/Davies - so tall that he had a splice stitched into his crewsuit.



			
				RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> btw...  what is BOHICA?



Bend Over - Here It Comes Again.

I am still not convinced of the accuracy of the story and its interpretation. It could also be a trial balloon floated to gauge public reaction.


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## SteveB

Before calling the fire department, I'd call my neighbour to confirm my house was on fire if I was told there were confirmed reports it was ablaze in the MSM.  Just remember who the source was before you get bent out of shape.

BOHICA
Bend Over, Here It Comes Again


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## a_majoor

Some of the reactions here are more interesting than the in the MSM.

Gen Hillier has served as CDS over two governments and no matter how good/bad/indifferent he had been, his tenure is drawing to a close. He has done a remarkable job in revitalizing the CF and bringing us back into the public eye, and he certainly had the character and force of will to ensure "his" vision was actually implemented as far as possible. Assessing how that went is a job for future historians who will have time to examine things and also see the downstream effects of the changes he wrought.

All I can say is; "It was a pleasure serving during your tenure, sir, and best of luck in your future endeavours."


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## The Bread Guy

For those who believe, here's what the MSM has been saying today. (.pdf, 21 pg.)

As Gen. H has been for the sharp end, like it or not, we elected the politicians to do the job, and they're doing their job.


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## Haggis

This is a non-story.

Gen Hillier will have served a usual three year posting as CDS come next February.  So what?  Of course he'll be replaced.  It's the natural order of things.

What would be REAL news is if he was asked to step down early or extended.


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## Haggis

And just because the water isn't muddy enough, I submit this with the usual disclaimer:

MacKay denies report that chief of defence staff to be replaced

By THE CANADIAN PRESS

TORONTO - Defence Minister Peter MacKay says the Conservative government has no plans to replace Gen. Rick Hillier as chief of the defence staff. 

MacKay has told reporters in Halifax that Hillier serves at the pleasure of the prime minister and Prime Minister Stephen Harper is pleased with the general's performance. 

The minister also says that Hillier has shown tremendous leadership in the continuing war against terrorism. 

An earlier report said Hillier would be replaced because he irked the government by outshining his political masters and undermining former defence minister Gordon O'Connor. 

When the armed forces held a private farewell ceremony for O'Connor in Ottawa on Tuesday, Hillier showed up late. 

The chief of defence staff - the country's top military commander - does not serve a defined term, but the average tenure is between three and five years and Hillier has served since February 2005


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## GAP

'No basis' to talk of replacing Hillier: MacKay
Updated Wed. Oct. 3 2007 10:30 AM ET CTV.ca News Staff
Article Link

Any talk of the Conservative government replacing Gen. Rick Hillier as chief of defence staff is just speculation, says Defence Minister Peter MacKay.

"There's no basis to this discussion. We're at war with respect to terrorism. Gen. Hillier has shown great leadership and we have tremendous confidence in his ability," MacKay told reporters in Halifax on Wednesday.

"He serves at the pleasure of the prime minister, and the prime minister is pleased with the work he is doing."

CTV News reported Tuesday night that the Conservative government won't extend the charismatic top general's three-year term when it comes up for renewal in February. Some observers told CTV News they thought he wanted to stay on to oversee Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

However, Hillier may have personally decided not to stay on as the Armed Forces' chief of defence staff when his term expires.

Robert Fife, CTV's Ottawa bureau chief who broke the story, said a source told him late Tuesday that Hillier had decided against an extension to his term.

"We'll see if that in fact is the case. All his office will say is that his reappointment is the prerogative of the prime minister," Fife told Canada AM on Wednesday.
More on link


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## Lance Wiebe

I would not be one bit surprised to see him retire after his tenure is up in February.

Having said that, the CDS is appointed by politicians, showing up late for a function that you were expected to attend must have really PO'd off a lot of his political masters.  

Gen Rick has been an outstanding CDS, he has, almost single handedly, restored the military to something the average citizen has taken some interest in, big change from the apathy before his tenure began.

I also have questioned some of his plans, the new national command, and his attempt at getting rid of tanks.  If it wasn't for the MND, we would not have tanks, old or new.  That must have caused a lor of arguments between the two of them!

I have had the distinct pleasure of serving with the CDS, and was even a member of his crew when he was a lowly Lt in the 8CH.  I have the greatest admiration and respect for him, and while I may question some of his decisions, I know that he has always tried to do what he thought was best for the military.

As an aside, if he does retire, I would love to see Gen Walt in there!


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## Babbling Brooks

We've got a little poll going on over at The Torch asking whether Hillier should be replaced or not at the end of the "standard" three year term.

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/10/change-of-command.html

Feel free to weigh in on the question, as I'll be dropping the results into the in-boxes of a few people I know in Ottawa.


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## geo

Lance... that would require us having two green generals in a row.....


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## Lance Wiebe

geo said:
			
		

> Lance... that would require us having two green generals in a row.....



 ;D

Yeah, I know.  Highly unusual, but I would love to see it!


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## Cdn Blackshirt

This would be tragic loss in my humble opinion.  He's been the only person demonstrating any ability to communicate to the press and public why we're in Afghanistan, as the PMO, MOD and cabinet have shown absolutely incompetency in this regard.  The greatest mistake the PMO made was once they realized their MOD was incapable of effective communication, was not putting Hillier out front and letting him handle public relations.  If Hillier had handled all the press conferences I contend public opinion would be greatly different at this point in time....


Matthew.


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## observor 69

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> This would be tragic loss in my humble opinion.  He's been the only person demonstrating any ability to communicate to the press and public why we're in Afghanistan, as the PMO, MOD and cabinet have shown absolutely incompetency in this regard.  The greatest mistake the PMO made was once they realized their MOD was incapable of effective communication, was not putting Hillier out front and letting him handle public relations.  If Hillier had handled all the press conferences I contend public opinion would be greatly different at this point in time....
> 
> 
> Matthew.



I agree a great communicator. But also politically astute enough that  the reasons he has offered for our being in Afghanistan have shifted in emphasis over time. For the PMO it is all politics, not sure they could marshal a reasoned argument for our being there if they had to, and certainly O'Connor was over his head as a communicator.
It would be a real shame to see the energy he has generated toward reequipping and modernizing wither away with a new CDS.


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## geo

CB...
It is not the MOD but the MND - the minister of national defense.

While the CDS is a good orator, it isn't supposed to be his job to deal with the public & the press.
He is supposed to deal with his political masters.... period.


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## NCRCrow

I love Hillier as a CDS but if it has to happen right now, its the Navy turn and Robertson is no slouch!! (either is Leslie)


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## geo

Green, Blue & Black... the next CDS will come from one of those colours.
There is no specific order or guarantee that each service will have his "turn" at the CDS' job.

Given taht the CF is involved is a shooting war & that it's mainly conducted by the army, then there is a concern for green insight BUT, you can't completely overlook the Blue & Black sides of the house... else THOSE arms risk atrophy and neglect..... and everyone will pay for that oversight.

Some thought for the big guys to mull over.


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## Scoobie Newbie

He's on TV right now but I think I missed what he said about staying or leaving.


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## GAP

Hillier says he has no plans to leave his post
Updated Wed. Oct. 3 2007 2:32 PM ET CTV.ca News Staff
Article Link

Video Link

Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier says he's 100 per cent focused on his job, has no plans to leave his post at this time and he's received no word the government is planning to end his term. 
CTV News reported Tuesday night that the Conservative government won't extend the charismatic top general's three-year term when it comes up for renewal in February. 

"Truthfully, I look at it this way," Hillier told reporters after a luncheon in Ottawa on Wednesday. 

"I'm the chief of defence staff. We're into a pretty intense period of operations in our country right now, and for me to be focused on anything but looking after Canada's sons and daughters and meeting my responsibility to Canada's moms and dads, would be wrong. So I'm 100 per cent focused on that."

He pointed out that his position is not subject to a three-year term. Instead, he serves at the pleasure of the prime minister for as long as both parties feel it is appropriate.

Traditionally, however, that period is about three years.

"There is no fixed term that goes with that whatsoever, and so at some point in time the prime minister will ask me, or I will indicate to him the time has come, and that time will come sometime in the future," Hillier said.

"I indicated when I took the appointment I would serve at the pleasure of the government, and that continues."

He downplayed the suggestion that leaving his post now would endanger the mission to Afghanistan.

"No, I don't put it in those terms whatsoever," Hillier said. 

"Because whether it's Afghanistan, whether it's Afghanistan continuing or whether it's other missions, the Canadian forces will always be involved in missions and I won't be the chief of defence staff always, obviously, so right now I'm focused 100 per cent on my job." 

Earlier in the day, Defence Minister Peter MacKay said any talk of the Conservative government replacing Hillier is just speculation.

"There's no basis to this discussion. We're at war with respect to terrorism. Gen. Hillier has shown great leadership and we have tremendous confidence in his ability," MacKay told reporters in Halifax on Wednesday.

"He serves at the pleasure of the prime minister, and the prime minister is pleased with the work he is doing."

However, Hillier may have personally decided not to stay on as the Armed Forces' chief of defence staff when his term expires.

Robert Fife, CTV's Ottawa bureau chief who broke the story, said a source told him late Tuesday that Hillier had decided against an extension to his term.

"We'll see if that in fact is the case. All his office will say is that his reappointment is the prerogative of the prime minister," Fife told Canada AM on Wednesday.

Hillier, appointed by the previous Liberal government in 2005, denied he is seeking a position in the private sector.

He attended a private farewell ceremony on Tuesday for former defence minister Gordon O'Connor -- a ceremony for which Hillier turned up late.
More on link


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## IN HOC SIGNO

That should be the end of it. This was a story made up by the MSM who were likely having a slow news day. The PM, the MND and the General himself has said there is no plan for replacement....sounds like a wrap to me...next item?


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## The Bread Guy

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> That should be the end of it. This was a story *made up by the MSM* who were likely having a slow news day. The PM, the MND and the General himself has said there is no plan for replacement.



Don't know if I'd go as far as saying it was "made up" - it would be interesting to see who _TOLD_ the MSM about this.  When I was a reporter, I would have to be pretty damned sure the source was credible before I'd stick my neck out with something like this (especially if I couldn't say who told me).

Yer bang on, though, about "move along, nothing to see here".....


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## Hunteroffortune

Hunteroffortune said:
			
		

> Do we seriously believe a rumour? From what I have seen, the media likes to make problems where none exist. Is Dion in trouble? Media changes the tune. HUMMM Could this be a planned story to divide the public? It isn't ONLY Hillier who has made the military proud again, he couldn't do it with the Liberals, they did nothing for the military over 13 years. It took the Conservatives to support the military, before he got results. Remember that one fact.
> 
> I think the media is making much out of nothing, shame on them. Maybe Hillier wants to become an MP? Or, he might actually want to retire. Rumours.....wait and see.



AHEM, can I get one of my demotes removed now that I have been proven to be right? Just asking.  ;D


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## Loachman

There - does that help?


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## RangerRay

All I can say is that the PM and the government would have nothing to gain by dumping General Hillier.  The CDS is very popular amongst those who would vote Tory, so this does not make much political sense.  I have heard though that the current Clerk of the Privy Council is not a big fan of the CDS.  Could this be where his "trial baloon" came from?


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## Long in the tooth

Who the hell is this Privy Council Clerk guy?!? I'm a clerk - pick me!


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## aesop081

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> Who the hell is this Privy Council Clerk guy?!? I'm a clerk - pick me!



http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/default.asp?Language=E&page=Clerk


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## Hunteroffortune

_But in a rare press conference at the National Press Theatre in Ottawa on Wednesday, Harper called Hillier an "outstanding soldier, who is bringing strong leadership for the Canadian forces."

"There has been no discussion in my office or with me with any senior officials about the possibility of changing the Chief of Defence Staff," said Harper. 

He added, "As a matter of fact, I think I just approved a pretty good rating for (him)." 

Robert Fife, CTV's Ottawa bureau chief who broke the story, told CTV Newsnet after Harper's press conference that the prime minister left the fate of Hillier's future ambiguous.

"He did offer great support for (Hillier), but he also said no decision had been made on whether his term is going to be extended," said Fife. _ 

Sorry, I can't figure out the hyperlink thingy, so here is the link, raw.  
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071002/hillier_ottawa_071003/20071003?hub=TopStories

As clear as PM Harper was, the media still tries to spin it. Enough of this fake made up media story.


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## IN HOC SIGNO

According to that story this morning this is a story that Robert Fife is still trying to keep alive. He heard it from a source whom he deems reliable and now that it doesn't seem to have traction he can't seem to let it go. Even after the PM said it was not in the cards this guy continues to bandy speculation around. why doesn't he just move on there is no story here yet?


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## Edward Campbell

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> Who the hell is this Privy Council Clerk guy?!? I'm a clerk - pick me!



Read this thread.

My (personal, but very limited) knowledge of the Clerk, Kevin Lynch, coupled with everything I have heard/read about him says that he doesn't _leak_ or trade in rumours. My guess is that if the Clerk wanted Hillier out he would be gone. Lynch has more power over DND and the CF than Hillier or even Hillier and MacKay combined.

Gen. Hillier is approaching the three year mark. Most Chiefs have served _about_ three years. The job is a pressure cooker - even for a _tough guy_ like Hillier. Plus, every large organization suffers if it does not _refresh_ its leadership on a regular basis. The time for a change is approaching. Despite the many, many good things Gen Hillier has done and is doing, a change will, probably, be good - it will bring a fresh perspective and may address some of the problems which Gen Hillier has failed to solve or, as in the case of top level organizational _superstructure_, which he has exacerbated.


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## a_majoor

Looking at the source:

http://lepolitico.blogspot.com/2007/10/ctvs-robert-fife-drums-up-wrong-facts.html



> Wednesday, October 3, 2007
> *CTV's Robert Fife drums up the wrong facts?*
> 
> It has been quite some time since Robert Fife broke a political news story. Likely because in past Liberal governments, inside info was extremely easy to come across; a trend we see continuing in the Liberal Party today.
> 
> With the Conservative government's tight hold on messaging resulting in less leaks to media, is Robert's lust for breaking news leading him to see things that aren't there?
> 
> Robert Fife hit the airwaves last night with a tale from an anonymous source that the Government had decided to replace General Hillier as the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS), and would not be renewing his term appointment.
> 
> Today, first Defence Minister Peter MacKay, then Prime Minister Stephen Harper, shot down Fife's erroneous report. Both added that the service provided by General Hillier, in his role as leader of the Canadian Armed Forces, has been top-notch.
> 
> "There has been no discussion in my office or with me with any senior officials about the possibility of changing the Chief of Defence Staff," said Harper.
> 
> And it should be pointed out that being the Chief of Defence Staff does not come with a set "term". The CDS serves at the pleasure of the Prime Minister, so there is no term to extend or end anyway.
> 
> So not only has the PM not been planning to evict Hillier from his job, the subject hasn't even come up for discussion. That is because the government, and most Canadians, realize that the General has been doing a great job. And as the Prime Minister stated, "As a matter of fact, I think I just approved a pretty good rating for (him)."
> 
> In the end, it would appear that Fife's source was seriously misinformed, and Robert could lose a great deal of credibility.
> 
> Or, is there a chance that he was purposely fed that information, so the resulting story could tell the "my way or the highway" general that he had better start toeing the government line, or he could easily be replaced?
> 
> Naahh, who could be that politically devious?


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## KPR

"Or, is there a chance that he was purposely fed that information, so the resulting story could tell the "my way or the highway" general that he had better start toeing the government line, or he could easily be replaced "

Knowing Gen. Hillier he would tell them to shove the job up their arse then.


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## Haggis

Upon re-reading this thread closely, I see:



> Robert Fife, CTV's Ottawa bureau chief who broke the story, said a source told him late Tuesday that *Hillier had decided against an extension* to his term.



Which is quite different from the original: 



> Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier* is expected to be replaced* as top military commander when his three-year term expires in February, Conservative insiders have told CTV.



Fife is speculating about what Hillier is thinking.  Sure he _may_ step down.  He may not.  In either case, next February Fife can honestly say Hillier or Harper must've had a change of heart.

Nice spin.


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## Gunplumber

Or maybe there is no source and he just making it up? Fife apparently is no fan of the CDS so maybe he is just starting rumours. Who would his source be that would have knowlage in what the PM intends to do with his CDS? I think not many people would know that information.


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## Lumber

Looking for opinions of the CF's reaction to A Gen. Hillier who is asked to step-down before his tenure is up. Now if his tenure is up or he decides to retire, that's fine. But an ex-NCM who was in one of my politics classes, and who I'll leave anonymous, fronted the idea that if our beloved current CDS were asked to step down over political squabbling in Ottawa, CF members would revolt! I'm sure that's not the word he used, and I'm sure he didn't imply coup d'etat. But you get the idea; our reaction would be vocal and disruptive. 

Now assuming coup d'etat to be the EXTREME end of the spectrum of possible reactions, what do any of you think the reaction of the CF would be to a popular and successful CDS being deposed by scared politicians?


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## NCRCrow

Nothing...adapt to change and continue mission! The Canadian way

I really take offense to this post from NCdt Lumber. Not trying to incite anything but its totally crap! I am a professional and a loyal Canadian and if this kind of post is on here . Please delete my account.

This is insult to all members of the CF and this website.


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## Reccesoldier

Fife is a has been and should have been put out to pasture long ago.


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## casing

I don't think it's been posted, so...

The Globe and Mail (the poll itself is on the main page, halfway down on the right) has a poll asking if you think Gen Hillier is doing a good job. 

Now, the results are favouring the 'no' side.  That in itself doesn't surprise me.  However, the ratio of 'no' to 'yes' does surprise me and IMHO gives a pretty good indication of just how misguided the general public is when it comes to CF affairs. At the time I'm writing this there have been almost 17,000 votes with 77% voting no.  Uh huh.


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## GAP

Haggis said:
			
		

> Upon re-reading this thread closely, I see:
> 
> Which is quite different from the original:
> 
> Fife is speculating about what Hillier is thinking.  Sure he _may_ step down.  He may not.  In either case, next February Fife can honestly say Hillier or Harper must've had a change of heart.
> 
> Nice spin.



Last night Fife is saying that it now might happen in June, so he's trying to say it will happen and that when it does, which it will eventually,Fife was correct all along.


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## 2 Cdo

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Nothing...adapt to change and continue mission! The Canadian way
> 
> I really take offense to this post from NCdt Lumber. Not trying to incite anything but its totally crap! I am a professional and a loyal Canadian and if this kind of post is on here . Please delete my account.
> 
> This is insult to all members of the CF and this website.



i think you're making quite a mountain out of a molehill. I _believe_ NCdt Lumber said nothing disgraceful but merely posted that a decision to remove Hillier for political reasons might not be popular with the members of the Forces. I don't think either himself or the unnamed NCM advocate an open revolt against the government of Canada regardless of whatever words might have been used.

 But by all means delete your account if you're that offended by someones post. :


----------



## HItorMiss

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Nothing...adapt to change and continue mission! The Canadian way
> 
> I really take offense to this post from NCdt Lumber. Not trying to incite anything but its totally crap! I am a professional and a loyal Canadian and if this kind of post is on here . Please delete my account.
> 
> This is insult to all members of the CF and this website.




Yeah he said nothing of the sort... I am a CF member and I if given a chance would be very vocal about losing Gen Hillier as our CDS if given a  chance to voice my opinion. Which is exactualy what the NCdt was trying to say. The general rank anf file of the CF would be displeased with a political decision to remove the CDS before his tenure was up or "he" decided to step down.

I'm not insulted in the slightest by the NCdt post not as a CF member and not as a member of this site, so really you're just speaking for yourself, I am fully able to speak for me thank you.


----------



## NCRCrow

2CDO:
maybe I construed this post the wrong way. I have been known to overreact on occasion. 

The decision may not be popular to remove the CDS ( I like the guy) but words like "coup" and revolt in the context of change in the CF and the post may have set me off. 

Maybe I need a nap!


----------



## 2 Cdo

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> 2CDO:
> maybe I construed this post the wrong way. I have been known to overreact on occasion.
> 
> The decision may not be popular to remove the CDS ( I like the guy) but words like "coup" and revolt in the context of change in the CF and the post may have set me off.
> 
> Maybe I need a nap!



I too used to over-react but now that I am so close to retirement it takes too much effort!   As for a nap, it's always a good time for a nap! :boring:


----------



## the 48th regulator

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> 2CDO:
> maybe I construed this post the wrong way. I have been known to overreact on occasion.
> 
> The decision may not be popular to remove the CDS ( I like the guy) but words like "coup" and revolt in the context of change in the CF and the post may have set me off.
> 
> Maybe I need a nap!



So,

Is it safe to say don't have to remove the post or you account from the site?

dileas

tess


----------



## Lumber

Thank you to those of you who defended my earlier statement, I'll try and clarify it a little to avoid later misinterpretation.

Neither I nor the aforementioned former NCM would ever dream of wanting something as politically and nationally destructive as a coup d'etat to occur. As I said that was on the _extreme_ end of the spectrum of possible reactions.

All I meant to say is that, clearly, their would be many who would be thrown into extreme discontent over what they would view as politicians interfering with military affairs. I suggested the example of Hillier being 'voluntold' to resign because it was in the best interest of the politicians, not of the country or the military. You can come up with your own theories as to why this would be, but that's for another thread. 

I'm sure everyone in the CF, except those who don't like Hillier, if such members exist, would be distraught by such a resignation. Those sentiments could range from simple disdain for the government to an outcry of hate and anger towards our political masters. Again, I present these as the extremes of a spectrum of possibilities. 

All I wished to know is what forum readers think, _think_ i said, with their educated subjective or objective opinions, would be the reaction of CF members.

Personally I believe it would depend on the level of controversy of his 'retirement'. If he stepped down voluntarily but there were rumours that he was urged to do so, I believe that we would all, as one person suggested, continue on with our duties. However, if Hillier went out and it was made publicly clear that they cut him down at the heels for purely political reasons, than there may be a more vocal reaction by the CF. 

That's my 2 cents, hopefully more clear than before. How about yours?


----------



## Wizard of OZ

If the CDS came forward and stated he was cut down for political reasons I think there would be some bad blood between the CF and the PC party.  Is it because he called the former MOD out? or is it because he is seen as a rock star when a lap dog would be better?  Don't know but as for open revolution or a coup.  I can't see that happening.  I mean even if we wanted to there were only two people working in supply out here so by the time we were able to draw our gear and get our vehicles going this minority government may have already fallen.   ;D


----------



## armyvern

Wizard of OZ said:
			
		

> If the CDS came forward and stated he was cut down for political reasons I think ...



that even should that be the case, he's much more professional than that. 

Gawd the speculating ... it's killing me.


----------



## Pikache

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> that even should that be the case, he's much more professional than that.
> 
> Gawd the speculating ... it's killing me.


Well, to me at least, this is more interesting than celebrity gossip ;D


----------



## armyvern

HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> Well, to me at least, this is more interesting than celebrity gossip ;D



Apparently you haven't read that Paris Hilton thread lately I'll assume??


----------



## FullMetalParka

Methinks the reason for Hillier's "termination," if you will, is so that he can't complain when the government decides to neglect the armed forces again. A nice, quiet CDS that doesn't make a fuss when the equipment is inadequate or doesn't arrive would be much better for the politicians. That way the Tories can say "Look, we're supporting the military!" without any comments to the contrary from the CDS, who KNOWS what his men and women need.


----------



## Franko

fullmetalparka said:
			
		

> Methinks the reason for Hillier's "termination," if you will, is so that he can't complain when the government decides to neglect the armed forces again. A nice, quiet CDS that doesn't make a fuss when the equipment is inadequate or doesn't arrive would be much better for the politicians. That way the Tories can say "Look, we're supporting the military!" without any comments to the contrary from the CDS, who KNOWS what his men and women need.



You obviously haven't been paying attention.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071002/hillier_ottawa_071003/20071003?hub=TopStories

Regards


----------



## FullMetalParka

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> You obviously haven't been paying attention.
> 
> http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071002/hillier_ottawa_071003/20071003?hub=TopStories
> 
> Regards



Obviously I haven't...  :blotto:


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Casing said:
			
		

> I don't think it's been posted, so...
> 
> The Globe and Mail (the poll itself is on the main page, halfway down on the right) has a poll asking if you think Gen Hillier is doing a good job.
> 
> Now, the results are favouring the 'no' side.  That in itself doesn't surprise me.  However, the ratio of 'no' to 'yes' does surprise me and IMHO gives a pretty good indication of just how misguided the general public is when it comes to CF affairs. At the time I'm writing this there have been almost 17,000 votes with 77% voting no.  Uh huh.



Consider who reads the Globe and Mail...mostly people who live in Toronto....these are folks who vote for Jack Layton....do the math.  ;D


----------



## RCR Grunt

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Consider who reads the Globe and Mail...mostly people who live in Toronto....these are folks who vote for Jack Layton....do the math.  ;D



And thats exactly why I don't read the "Mop and Pail."  Unless Christie Blatchford has a good article in it.


----------



## observor 69

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Consider who reads the Globe and Mail...mostly people who live in Toronto....these are folks who vote for Jack Layton....do the math.  ;D



I count three NDP in The GTA.  Now if you were arguing that the GTA was mostly Liberal , as Harper is well aware, then you would have a solid base for argument.   >

And by the way the G&M is one of the finest, well written and thoughtful papers in Canada.   

Edit:
Forgot my reference:
http://www.elections.ca/pas/39ge/39official.pdf


----------



## Loachman

Casing said:
			
		

> Now, the results are favouring the 'no' side.  That in itself doesn't surprise me.  However, the ratio of 'no' to 'yes' does surprise me and IMHO gives a pretty good indication of just how misguided the general public is when it comes to CF affairs. At the time I'm writing this there have been almost 17,000 votes with 77% voting no.  Uh huh.



P'raps the Taliban have wireless in their caves...


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> I count three NDP in The GTA.  Now if you were arguing that the GTA was mostly Liberal , as Harper is well aware, then you would have a solid base for argument.   >
> 
> And by the way the G&M is one of the finest, well written and thoughtful papers in Canada.
> 
> Edit:
> Forgot my reference:
> http://www.elections.ca/pas/39ge/39official.pdf



The G & M is a good paper...i didn't say it wasn't. Do the Math and figure out how many people there are in Toronto and therefore how many of the readership of the G&M are from the GTA. Look at who the populace of the GTA vote for...Lib and NDP...and therefore that is who is answering the poll. Lib and NDP supporters are not huge supporters of this mission and therefore most of them do not support our leader. I . didn't say the paper wasn't well written or that it is disrespected...I read it myself every now and then. I even look at the Star every now and then just to see how the left is spinning things.


----------



## casing

Posted reply to the poll sub-topic in this thread on Polls Forum, a more appropriate location.


----------



## Franko

Casing said:
			
		

> Posted reply to the poll sub-topic in this thread on Polls Forum, a more appropriate location.



Totally different context. The thread stands in this forum.

*The Army.ca Staff*


----------



## Cheshire

Somewhere around here, there was a very funny thread about Hillier and how when he gets into the water, Hillier does not get wet, but the water gets Hillier. Funny stuff. Well liked by the troops, and as I have read recently, I guess he is staying whee he his.


----------



## Franko

Cheshire said:
			
		

> Somewhere around here, there was a very funny thread about Hillier and how when he gets into the water, Hillier does not get wet, but the water gets Hillier. Funny stuff. Well liked by the troops, and as I have read recently, I guess he is staying whee he his.



Try this site....just substitute Chuck Norris' name for Gen Hillier's.

Your quote is number 57.      

Regards


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Try this site....just substitute Chuck Norris' name for Gen Hillier's.
> 
> Your quote is number 57.
> 
> Regards



Ummm.... forgot the link there RBD


----------



## armyvern

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> Ummm.... forgot the link there RBD



The whole intent was for the pers to search!! RBDs a mod you know!! He recommends searches!!    :-*


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Must be the turkey and Crown  ;D


----------



## Franko

*DAMNATION!!!!!*

http://reviews.ebay.com/Top-100-Chuck-Norris-Facts_W0QQugidZ10000000000690883

Regards


----------



## midget-boyd91

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> htp://reviews.ebay.com/*Top-100-Chuck-Norris-Facts*_W0QQugidZ10000000000690883



Top 100? 



> *101.* Chuck Norris can divide by zero.


----------



## Franko

uncle-midget-boyd said:
			
		

> Top 100?



Are you trying to limit Chuck Norris? I wouldn't advise that......


----------



## Teflon

Never try to put a limit on Chuck Norris!







Chuck preparing roundhouse kicks to sendby email


----------



## Flip

A few remarks from Peter Worthington.

Comment Link - Toronto Sun

    Young Canadians respond 

By PETER WORTHINGTON


Want to know how the Canadian military has changed in recent years? 

Look at recruiting ads. 

Back in the 1970s, DND recruiting ads stressed security -- that the military was a great career for young people (mostly men) and after 21 years a handsome pension awaited, with the possibility of a new civilian career. 

That ad wasn't as appealing as some hoped, since financial "security" isn't a prime motivation for young folk contemplating the military. Financial security and pensions concern the middle aged. 

In the 1980s and beyond, with Canadian troops on UN peacekeeping missions around the world (and personnel strained, with equipment ancient and inadequate), the ads switched to the theme: "There's no life like it!" -- young men and women in exotic environments, learning different trades, adventurous surroundings, a great chance to travel. That sort of thing. 

  

Yes, the slogan inspired satire or mocking when things went wrong in the military and critics could sarcastically quip "there's no life like it -- thank goodness." Still, the ad had appeal. 

Today, with Canadian troops embroiled in Afghanistan as our contribution to the war against terrorism, the demand for more recruits is critical. 

To the dismay of the anti-military movement and the peace-at-any-price proponents, the fact Canadians are getting killed and wounded in combat does not deter recruiting. On the contrary, recruiting is up as danger or risk increases. 

To some, this reality is both incomprehensible and inexplicable -- which shows the great divide in our country. I'd argue what this reflects is not increased patriotism, or young people being brainwashed by a military spinmeisters, but a yearning for adventure that burns strong in young Canadians. 

The DND ads on TV today would have been inconceivable, even a decade ago. Witness this one: 

"Fight fear ... fight chaos ...fight in the Canadian army." Wow! This ad actually gains recruits, and refutes the passivity that infects those in Canada who used to have control of the microphone and media soap box. 

It isn't the "fighting" part that's appealing, but the fact our army has more direction these days. 

Soldiers are well-trained (as are sailors and air crew), know their job, and are making a difference wherever they serve. 

Of course, young soldiers feel invincible and immortal -- always have, except on those occasions when circumstance under fire invoke sheer terror and fear -- controlled or quelled by their discipline and training. 

When the moment of fear passes, dark humour and fatalism return. Adrenaline brings an emotional high. Most soldiers learn to put fear behind them. 

Now that the political campaign to replace Gordon O'Connor as Defence Minister has succeeded (a former soldier, he hastened the revival of Canada's military as a fighting force), the lib-left has switched to trying to get rid of General Rick Hillier as Chief of Defence Staff. He is too popular among troops, too aggressive, too daring, too outspoken for their liking. 

They want a tamer, more passive CDS in command, witness a recent salvo against Hillier in a Maclean's article which, when read, seems more a fishing or exploratory expedition to be rid of him. 

Hillier is a fighting commander of traditional hue, with the trust of rank-and-file soldiers. 

Replacing him would encourage Canada's enemies at home and abroad -- which is a solid reason why he should not be replaced. 

I can't argue with much here.


----------



## geo

Good lord!.... Gordon O'Connor succeded and hastened the revival of Canada's military as a fighting force?

WTF

I don't think so!


----------



## Haggis

CTV and Robert Fife strike again.  In this case it's to highlighting the latest "rift" between the CDS and PM.  

Shared with the usual disclaimer:
*PMO rejects Hillier's timeline on Afghan mission*

The PMO has reiterated the government's position, laid out in the throne speech, that it believes the Afghan people will be able to defend themselves by 2011 -- years ahead of the timeline Canada's top soldier gave Thursday. 

Gen. Rick Hillier told reporters at the Kandahar airfield on Thursday that Afghanistan's army could need 10 years before it's in a position to fend for itself. 

But in the recent throne speech, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said that objective could be accomplished by 2011. 

"This really set off the Prime Minister's Office, they were completely caught off guard by this (and) *they have now put out a statement officially rebuking Gen. Hillier*," CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife reported Friday.

"What you have here is the government making policy and then being outflanked by the general who says in fact the government isn't telling the truth, that it can't be done by 2011, that it would take a decade." 

Statement from Harper spokesperson

In a statement to CTV, Harper's director of communications Sandra Buckler did not directly address Hillier's comments. 

"Building up the capacity of the Afghan people so that they can defend their own sovereignty has always been our goal and we know this will not happen overnight," said Buckler. 

"However, our Government believes that this objective should be achievable by 2011, the end of the period covered by the Afghanistan Compact."

The Afghanistan Compact is a plan adopted last year by the international community to stabilize the war-torn country.

Buckler said the government would have the final decision on the matter. 

"While we do look forward to receiving the report from the Manley Panel, we have said so many times before and will continue to emphasize, it will be Parliament that will ultimately decide how long our Canadian Forces will remain in Afghanistan," she said. 

Hillier said Thursday that Afghanistan is only about halfway to the 70,000 soldiers it needs to maintain peace in the country. 

He said the Afghan troops trained by Canadians and other NATO nations are "top-notch." But he noted it takes three years to build a battalion, which consists of about 500 to 600 soldiers. 

"It's going to take 10 years or so just to work through and build an army to whatever the final number that Afghanistan will have, and make them professional and let them meet their security demands here," Hillier said. 

Public policy dispute 

The difference in timeframes wasn't easily dismissed by other parties who demanded answers outside the House of Commons on Thursday. 

NDP Leader Jack Layton called the discrepancy "very serious" while speaking to reporters. 

"If it's true, as General Hillier is suggesting, that Canada could be involved in the combat effort as the effort to train soldiers and police in Afghanistan takes 10 years, then we're talking about something very different than what Mr. Harper has told Canadians," he said. 

Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre told reporters that Canadians shouldn't have to decide who's telling the truth. 

"We have to come clean once and for all," he said. "You have Harper who plays with numbers like crazy and now he's saying that it's going to take four years. So, you know, you can understand why Canadians are confused sometimes about the mission." 

Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe said, "I think General Hillier is telling the truth and Harper is playing politics, period. He knows Hillier is right on that." 

Since 2002, 71 Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan. 

Canada and its 2,500 troops are only committed to the Afghan mission until February 2009, although Harper has appointed a blue-ribbon panel to make recommendations on the mission's future. 

With files from The Canadian Press.


----------



## Greymatters

geo said:
			
		

> Good lord!.... Gordon O'Connor succeded and hastened the revival of Canada's military as a fighting force?
> WTF  I don't think so!



I guess it depends what standards you have for 'succeeded', 'hastened', and 'fighting force'.

Once the big fish leave their pond its amazing how much 20/20 hindsight shows they accomplished.  Look at Mulrooney, left as one of the most disliked PM in history, yet his apologists claim he was the saviour of the country.  Want proof?  Read his latest literary effort where he tells you himself how great he was.


----------



## MarkOttawa

A post at _The Torch_:

Hillier vs. Harper
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/10/hillier-vs-harper.html

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Greymatters

Lets see...

A highly experienced Army General says it will take at least a decade to produce a sustainable military force (about 2017)

A political leader with no direct military experience says it will take until 2011 to create a sustainable military force.

It doesnt take a rocket scientitst to figure out who is more credible, and it makes the reporter look petty to claim this is a source of conflict between the two...


----------



## Edward Campbell

Gen. Hillier's views, while of obvious interest, are irrelevant.

The Afghanistan Compact is the key to our presence in Afghanistan and it will need to be renegotiated sometime between now and 2010 if we/ISAF are to continue with the mission. The Compact provides the legal _cover_ for the mission - it is, essentially, Afghanistan's _invitation_ to ISAF members to "come and help." It expires at end January 2011 and, from a policy perspective, so does our _invitation_.

So, it really doesn't matter how long it will take to do the job; the job, _per se_, ends when the Afghanistan Compact expires.



Edit: typo


----------



## Greymatters

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Gen. Hillier's views, while of obvious interest, are irrelevant.
> 
> The Afghanistan Compact is the key to our presence in Afghanistan and it will need to be renegotiated sometime between now and 2010 if we/ISAF are to continue with the mission. The Compact provides the legal _cover_ for the mission - it is, essentially, Afghanistan's _invitation_ to ISAF members to "come and help." It expires at end January 2011 and, from a policy perspective, so does our _invitation_.
> 
> So, it really doesn't matter how long it will take to do the job; the job, _per se_, ends when the Afghanistan Compact expires. Edit: typo



True.  I imagine the debating over the mission it will get pretty intense in the last half of 2010.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I'm assuming that sometime in 09/10 there will be repeats of the Bonn and London conferences to renegotiate the Afghanistan Compact and, as part of the package, to redefine the security and development goals.

That renegotiated Compact should provide Canada, and others, with new targets in the defence, development and diplomacy arenas. Then the domestic political debate *should* begin again.


----------



## Greymatters

Im thinking they'll postpone any serious debate until after the Olympics are held...


----------



## MarkOttawa

Another post at _The Torch_ (Peter Worthington's _Toronto Sun_ column today):

_Globe and Mail's_ anti-Gen. Hillier agenda
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/11/globe-and-mails-anti-gen-hillier-agenda.html

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## tomahawk6

How many CDS's have been kept for a second tour ?


----------



## Good2Golf

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> How many CDS's have been kept for a second tour ?



T6, in recent times, Gen John de Chastelain was appointed CDS for a second time after Adm John (JR) Anderson was whisked out of Command after only 9 months as CDS.  De Chastelain served as CDS from 1989-1993 and 1994-1995.  When you mention "second tour", if you mean "consecutive" there is no real such thing as there is no formal period of appointment for the CDS.  General Dextraze was the longest serving CDS, from 1972 to 1977 -- the shortest was Adm Anderson from summer 1993 to early spring 1994. 

G2G


----------



## Old Sweat

I am not sure there is such a thing as a second tour; the CDS serves "at pleasure" although the normal tour apparently is three years. In my recollection Dextraze served for more than three years. He took over circa 1972 or 1973 and was replaced by Falls in 1978 or 1979. De Chastelain did one tour, went to Washington as the ambassador and returned for a second tour when Anderson was fired for criticizing the Liberal plan to cancel the EH 101 procurement during the 1993 Federal election. 

There have been, as far as I know, two replaced early - Anderson and Boyle. Murray did a short term as acting CDS but was not promoted to full admiral. The others - Miller, Allard, Sharp, Ramsey Withers, Theriault, Baril and Heinault - all served for a 'normal tour' more or less.

I may have missed somebody. However 14 Chiefs of the Defence Staff seems about right for the 43 years since integration in 1964.


----------



## tomahawk6

Thanks Gents. 
I know in the US the Chairman JCS sometimes gets a second 2 year stint, but the normal tour is 2 years.  The Army Chief of Staff tour is 4 years and its been a very long time for anyone to get a second tour. No question that Hillier has been a very effective advocate for the CF and the members of the CF clearly would like him to stay on. Of course its a political decision but I would think that the PM would want to retain him as long as possible. Another thing to consider is that the ISAF commander is probably going to be changed as McNeil sometime next year.Would a Canadian General be selected to replace him ?


----------



## Good2Golf

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Gen. Hillier's views, while of obvious interest, are irrelevant.
> 
> The Afghanistan Compact is the key to our presence in Afghanistan and it will need to be renegotiated sometime between now and 2010 if we/ISAF are to continue with the mission. The Compact provides the legal _cover_ for the mission - it is, essentially, Afghanistan's _invitation_ to ISAF members to "come and help." It expires at end January 2011 and, from a policy perspective, so does our _invitation_.
> 
> So, it really doesn't matter how long it will take to do the job; the job, _per se_, ends when the Afghanistan Compact expires.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: typo



...the details of the Afghanistan Compact (signed in London in January 2006), however, are that it supported the first five years of the Afghanistan National Development Strategy (ANDS), itself a 20-year plan to rebuild and develop Afghan society to the UN's accepted Millennium Development Goals by the end of 2025.

...so Gen Hillier is correct in that rebuilding does not finish finitely in 2011.  It is, however, correctly up to the GoC to determine the degree to which we will assist the Gov't of Afghanistan towards meeting its goal by 2025.

G2G


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Did you ever think that maybe Hillier wants to quit? 3 years in that job is a real grind.


----------



## geo

In some respect, it is good to have change.
While the CDS stays in place, so do the heirs apparent.
For Hillier to stay in office beyond the usual, he creates a "traffic jam" of sorts as the other general officers stack up... already that, by creating all the .com structures, we've gotten ourselves another bunch of LtGens looking for advancement.


----------



## Old Sweat

Geo,

If one has to spend a lot of time in one rank, lieutenant general probably falls into the highly desirable category.


----------



## pbi

And he could certainly retire with honour if he did choose to go. I have never served under a leader like him: the closest would have been JADEX (who also stood up to the Govt on occasion).Since Gen Hillier is already at the approximate typical departure point for the appointment, I wouldn't be surprised to see him replaced without malice by this Govt. I very much doubt that a single comment about the duration of the training period for the ANA would be grounds for the Tories to remove a popular CDS in midstream. I also doubt very much that O'Connor was removed because of the CDS' relationship with him. IMHO O'Connor (despite whatever his ministerial achievements inside DND and the CF may have been) got the heave because he was seen as an endless political train wreck for a PM who is extremely image conscious and has a very focused communications strategy and action plan.

Whether he stays or whether he goes, he has cut a new pattern for senior military leadership in this country, and I see a huge difference in most of our generals now as compared to when I was a Lt. My real fear is that the Govt (of whatever party) does not have a knee-jerk reaction and go looking for a quiet, docile little office boy/apologist as a replacement.

Cheers


----------



## geo

PBI
Don't get me wrong.  I think Hillier has done wonders to the CF - both WRT the image of the Forces tiwards the Public & within.  He has rekindled the Warrior spirit that was somewhat stunted by 50 some years of peacekeeping and " the death of a thousand papercuts"

Any successor will need to fill an awful big pair of hip waders  (shoes)

The most recent batch of Senior General officers appear to have been cut from the same cloth... time will tell how well we fare


----------



## tomahawk6

If Hillier is replaced is it likely that an Admiral would replace him ?


----------



## pbi

It's possible, and some might say "traditional" that the post is rotated between  the services, but in fact our Navy currently has very few likely candidates, since some of their capable "heavy hitters" have left the CF in the last few years. The Air Force might be a bit better off, but the best candidate is probably LGen Natynczyk, currently the Vice Chief. He is Armoured, and held the position of Deputy Corps Comd for Support in Iraq. He is quieter than the current CDS but has an equally straightforward presence. It isn't normal to go from VCDS to CDS, but IMHO he is the best man for the job. The Navy and Airforce are probably dreading another Army CDS, but if he can keep the inter-service waters smooth, things may be alright.

Cheers


----------



## tomahawk6

So Leslie isnt a likely candidate ? He held the same post that Natynczyk did with III Corps. If my memory is correct Natynczyk succeded him.


----------



## Gunner

Leslie did not serve with III Corps.  It may even be solely an armoured billet (Hillier, Natynczyk, Maissonieve...) Having said that I think Devlin was there...not sure.


----------



## tomahawk6

Ok I stand corrected. Devlin is currently in Iraq with III Corps.


----------



## dapaterson

Trying to read the the leaves in Ottawa to determine which general will move into which position can be a full-time job, with little or no joy.

One item to keep in mind is this, though:  As of January, the post-employment restrictions will apply for 5 years vice one year; could it be that our man Hillier is setting up his exodus on or before 31 December to keep his options open as a future lobbyist?

(see http://pm.gc.ca/grfx/docs/code_e.pdf for details)


----------



## Greymatters

pbi said:
			
		

> It's possible, and some might say "traditional" that the post is rotated between  the services, but in fact our Navy currently has very few likely candidates, since some of their capable "heavy hitters" have left the CF in the last few years. The Air Force might be a bit better off, but the best candidate is probably LGen Natynczyk, currently the Vice Chief.



What about Lt. Gen Dumais?  He's about the best the Air Force has right now.  Not as forceful as Hillier is in person, but still sharp.


----------



## Good2Golf

Greymatters said:
			
		

> What about Lt. Gen Dumais?  He's about the best the Air Force has right now.  Not as forceful as Hillier is in person, but still sharp.



I'd take Watt ten times over Dumais.  Dumais doesn't stand out as having done anything for the air force in particular.  Watt is a no-nonsense (some say gruff) operationally-minded guy. COS(Air) at ISAF, and Acting COMISAF on several occasions, he's walked the walk (after doing very little talking in the first place) -- he's one to keep an eye on.  VAdm Roberston stands out in the Navy's mind, but not particularly anywhere else.  As an AF guy, I'd still objectively have to give Uncle Walt my vote....my gut feel is he's the right recipe for the next Chief.

G2G


----------



## MarkOttawa

Good stuff from the CBC--really:

MUCH ADO ABOUT HILLIER
http://maisonneuve.org/index.php?&page_id=12&article_id=3007#



> In the immortal words of Tom Waits, “The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away.” Punch-packing headlines such as “Tone it down, Ottawa tells top soldier” and “Harper poised to fire Hillier?” (the title of a segment on The National last night that addressed rumours to that effect) have recently been provoking audiences to think about the relationship between Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier and Prime Minister Stephen Harper. But what do the stories really tell us? An unnamed “senior government official” told the Globe that Hillier was given “marching orders” and that “his role is not to be the chief spokesperson for the mission [in Afghanistan].” Although the quotation carries some water-cooler gossip value, it implies little more than a slap on the wrist for Hillier, at least officially. With no official conflict reported between Harper and Hillier, no statements on either side regarding tensions or disagreement, is there any substance to the rumours?
> 
> The National took up the hearsay regarding Hillier’s apparent hot seat by posing the question to its At Issue panel. Reaching a rare consensus, the four political analysts agreed that Hillier is far from being in danger of removal. Macleans national editor Andrew Coyne went so far as to say the entire issue is a “needless confrontation.” David Bercuson of the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary acknowledged that there are differences in appearances between the PM’s office and the Chief of Defence Staff, but a clear confluence of agenda. Earlier in the broadcast, defence analyst Anthony Cordesman, of the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, said this of Hillier: “I think he’s a realist by any historical standard and by the standards in Afghanistan. These wars take ten to fifteen years, not ten to fifteen months. Governments perpetually promise their people quick, early solutions—and they simply, almost invariably, don’t occur.” CBC correspondent Rex Murphy weighed in at the end of the program, saluting Hillier for his characteristic forthrightness and no-nonsense communication. “[Hillier’s manner of speaking is] a million miles away from the grey muddy fuzziness, the pure slipperiness and evasion that characterizes almost a hundred percent of the language of politics.” MediaScout reflects that the language of the media, the lens through which we perceive Canada’s fuzzily worded politics, can occasionally be equally nebulous.



Rex Murphy here:
http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/rex_murphy/a_salute_to_the_general_1.html

"The National" Nov. 8 here:
http://www.cbc.ca/ondemand/news/thenational.asx

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Brad Sallows

>An unnamed “senior government official” told the Globe that Hillier was given “marching orders” and that “his role is not to be the chief spokesperson for the mission [in Afghanistan].”

Jesus H Christ on a crutch in a sidecar.

Dear Unnamed (Anonymous) Political Coward:

When your political masters grow spines and become the chief spokespeople for their own policy (missions), then no one will have to do it for them while, serendipitously, being the public relations sh!t magnet for those who disagree.  Until then, either just thank Hillier or save your breath so you don't pass out from the aroma of shoe polish at the lofty heights you inhabit.

With absolute sincerity of contempt, 

Brad Sallows

PS.  
Fuck you.
Fuck you and all who look like you.
Fuck you and all who look like you and the horses you rode in on.
Fuck you and all who look like you and the horses you rode in on, to death.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from recent editions of the _Globe and Mail_ are two pieces which may illuminate the situation:

1.	A column by political specialist Lawrence Martin in which he _shills_, in my opinion, for an unnamed “senior Harper official” who is sharpening her sword, eady to behead Gen. Hillier for the mortal sin of not adhering, rigidly, to the _party line_; and

2.	A _rebuttal_ by war correspondent Christie Blatchford.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071108.wcomartin08/BNStory/Front/home


> Old soldiers never die – and won't shut up, either
> 
> LAWRENCE MARTIN
> 
> From Thursday's Globe and Mail
> November 8, 2007 at 4:04 AM EST
> 
> 'You can muzzle everyone else in this town, Prime Minister. Not me." That, in so many words, was the response from General Rick Hillier this week to suggestions from Stephen Harper's office that he'd better tighten his tongue.
> 
> A healthy surmise might be that the Sun King is not amused.
> 
> Speaking of the military, our Chief of the Defence Staff said on Tuesday: "I will be the public champion of those brave men and women. They are Canada's sons and daughters, ladies and gentleman. If we can't market Canada's sons and daughters back to Canada's moms and dads, we need to find somebody to replace us to do the job."
> 
> There is no backdown in this guy. Newfoundlanders, as Stephen Harper is discovering, don't bend. In addition to the general, there is the flame-throwing Premier Danny Williams. Both seem to take their cue from the same film reel. "Frankly, my dear Stephen, I don't give a damn."
> 
> In a noteworthy moment, the two Newfoundlanders came together recently at Ottawa's Parliamentary Press Gallery dinner. When Mr. Williams encountered the general, he lit up. "Nice to see I'm not the only Newfoundlander here who the Prime Minister is pissed off at," he said.
> 
> Laughs all around. But no slapping of the knees at the PMO.
> 
> The question is, how many pushbacks will the Sun King take before sending his top gun back to the Rock? Last week, a senior Harper official was quoted as saying that Gen. Hillier had been given his marching orders to tone it down. "He was reminded what his role is. His role is not to be the chief spokesman for the mission."
> 
> Gen. Hillier seemingly missed - though he might argue differently - this message, just like he has seemingly missed several others. In the Throne Speech, the government said Afghan security forces should be ready to defend their people in four years, by 2011. Gen. Hillier was soon before the mikes, tripling the estimate. Ten to 15 years, he said.
> 
> There appears to be a problem here. Old soldiers never die - and it seems they won't shut up, either. Gen. Hillier later backpedalled to say he was on the same page as the Throne Speech. Before this, there were other Hillier feuds with the PMO as well as with Gordon O'Connor, who, to no one's disappointment, was dumped from the defence post.
> 
> Early last month, when CTV reported that Gen. Hillier was on the way out, Mr. Harper issued what amounted to only a half-denial. It could well be construed, viewing the top soldier's comportment since then, that he thinks he is indeed going and that he has no intention of going quietly.
> 
> It's not exactly in league with Douglas MacArthur v. Harry Truman. But, in Canadian terms, this is getting quite serious.
> 
> Many feel the general is too popular and too effective to be canned. He has rebuilt the military. He has led an Afghan mission that has the worthy goal - one that should be pursued - of keeping the Taliban from regaining power in that country.
> 
> But, while dropping the engaging Gen. Hillier would anger the military and other constituencies, the public at large might not react so disdainfully. Many aren't comfortable with his militaristic vision of Canada, his seeming readiness to move the country off its peace-brokering, peacekeeping tradition toward a more American mindset.
> 
> He is forever criticizing what he calls "the decade of darkness" that preceded his becoming Chief of the Defence Staff in early 2005. In military spending and in foreign aid terms, they were hardly good years. But how dark were they? At the end of the Cold War, defence spending was going down all over, especially in countries such as Canada that faced record-breaking deficits. Still, we answered the call in the Balkans conflicts, we brought soft power, with some successes, to the table and there was the landmark foreign policy moment on Iraq. In more recent years, with the budget coffers full, the defence spending problem has been addressed.
> 
> Gen. Hillier has done his thing and has done it efficiently. It is no longer imperative that he stay on as our military leader. As opposed to his style, Canadians seem to prefer the moderation that has infused our foreign policy for decades and that has served us well.
> 
> While Mr. Harper would hear all kinds of screaming from his right-wing base, he could probably get away with junking the general.
> 
> _lmartin@globeandmail.com_



And

 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071109.blatchford10/BNStory/Front/home


> How General Hillier has made it respectable to be a soldier again
> 
> CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD
> 
> From Saturday's Globe and Mail
> November 9, 2007 at 11:31 PM EST
> 
> It was my Globe and Mail colleague Lawrence Martin who put his finger on it.
> 
> He was writing a couple of days ago about Chief of the Defence Staff Rick Hillier, whom he calls the Sun King for what he sees as General Hillier's stubborn refusal to toe the government line on Afghanistan and to be stifled by the powers-that-be in the Prime Minister's Office.
> 
> (To be perfectly fair, if I were the CDS, I'd have had trouble following the government line, too, if only because, from time to time, it's been impossible to determine quite what it is.)
> 
> Now, Mr. Martin lives and works in Ottawa and is far more familiar with the workings of Parliament Hill and the PMO than I am. Interpreting the verbal droppings of politicians and their anonymous handlers, foes and friends I leave to him and others.
> 
> If Mr. Martin et al think there is a push-pull contest going on between Stephen Harper and Gen. Hillier, probably there is; if Mr. Martin says Gen. Hillier is on his way out, then perhaps it's true.
> 
> In other words, I absolutely yield to him on this stuff.
> 
> But it was in this same piece that Mr. Martin put into words, however inadvertently, the bare-bones truth of what I think really irritates him about this particular soldier and perhaps the lot of them – and, if he's right, may irritate other Canadians as well.
> 
> Writing about the potential junking of Gen. Hillier, a prospect that does not appear to fill him with sadness, Mr. Martin said: “But while dropping the engaging Gen. Hillier would anger the military and other constituencies, the public at large might not react so disdainfully.
> 
> “Many aren't comfortable with his militaristic view of Canada, his seeming readiness to move the country off its peace-brokering, peacekeeping tradition toward a more American mindset.”
> 
> Now that was a powerful paragraph, invoking all at the same time the spectre of militarism and our American neighbours and offering a passing but plaintive reference to the grand old days of Canadian peacekeeping.
> 
> Aside from the fact that I wouldn't have thought “militaristic” could be an epithet when applied to a man who has spent his life in the Canadian Forces as a professional soldier – I mean, what ought a leader of soldiers to be? Pacifistic? Delicate? – the evidence that Gen. Hillier is militaristic is pretty scarce.
> 
> Surely it was under him that the Forces rearmed after decades of suffering sweeping budget cuts and a bureaucratic mindset that persisted in viewing the military as though it were just another department, like Fisheries and Oceans. But rearmament is not innately militaristic: It is simply giving soldiers the reasonable tools to do what their government assigns them to do.
> 
> As for peacekeeping, which still appears to be how some Canadians, Mr. Martin included, prefer to envision their soldiers – in smart blue berets handing out goodies to children – consider what Colonel George Petrolekas, a veteran soldier now on unpaid leave who is also a friend of Gen. Hillier's (and fiercely loyal), has to say about one of the missions Mr. Martin cites, Bosnia.
> 
> Col. Petrolekas was there in 1993 as part of the United Nations' protection force.
> 
> “The mission was for the delivery of humanitarian aid to villages,” he says, “and thus the rules did not allow the international force to stop abuses of humanity that can only be termed aberrant.
> 
> “Early in my tour in 1993, a village of 280 [this was the village of Vares] was butchered and not a word was said, not a thing was done. There were so many such events that I saw soldiers cry at the frustration of not being able to do the right thing.
> 
> “If that be keeping the peace, you can have it.”
> 
> Other UN peacekeeping missions in which Canadians took part – most infamously, in Rwanda under Lieutenant-General Roméo Dallaire, who later wrote a searing account, Shake Hands with the Devil, of his force's impotence to do much to prevent the genocide of Tutsis and the slaughter of 10 of his peacekeepers – were similarly flawed.
> 
> The key reason for the soldiers' impotence was that they were so crippled by their rules of engagement – the same sort of rules Col. Petrolekas was referring to in Bosnia – that they couldn't protect the civilians they were there to help or in some instances even themselves. ROE are part and parcel of a soldier's arsenal, as critical a part as his weaponry, and if Gen. Hillier had anything to do with the more sensible rules under which Canadians now operate in Kandahar, then all credit to him.
> 
> The truth is, Gen. Hillier has presided over what amounts to the rebirth of the Canadian military. I don't speak purely in terms of budgets, armaments and missions, either; what he has really done is make it respectable again to be a soldier in this country. Under his leadership, there has been something of a cultural shift such that soldiers are no longer made to feel vaguely ashamed for being soldiers.
> 
> It was always an honourable occupation, but that “dark decade” Gen. Hillier often invokes, and which so appears to annoy my colleague Mr. Martin, was absolutely real. The CDS isn't imagining it: National newspapers and magazines ran stories on soldiers so ill-paid they had to resort to food banks, reservists were so starved for funds they ran out of ammunition and invented the so-called “militia bullet” (it meant they literally went “Bang-bang”), and in those post-Somalia years, soldiers were asked and occasionally ordered not to wear their uniforms in public, presumably lest the mere sight of them provoke fear and loathing in the populace.
> 
> The forces have come a long way under the blunt Newfoundlander. Maybe he's in a spat with the PM; maybe he's hard to handle; maybe he's even militaristic. Soldiers have waited a long time for a valiant and forthright champion in that office. No wonder they, and those who like soldiers, like him so much.



The _villain_ of the piece is not Lawrence Martin – although he’s rendered himself a stenographer rather than a journalist. It is the “senior Harper official” (a partisan political appointee, not a public official) who hides in the shadows, behind Martin’s _journalistic integrity_ and launches her (I think it’s a her) sneak attacks on a distinguished public servant. For shame!


----------



## armyvern

Here's what I fail to understand ...

Since when has the CDS' job requirement included the provisio that he be a cheer-leading squad for the governing party of the day?? His job is to advise them -- honestly.

Nothing says he's got to stand up and cheer for them; and, I suspect ... if he were indeed cheering _for_ the Conservative Line (or any political line for that matter) ... the Liberals & NDP would be up in arms, the media would really be going nuts ... and Lawrence Martin's unnamed “senior Harper official” would be wringing his/her hands with delight while drooling. That's all about politiking.

The CDS is doing his job. He's being honest.


----------



## GAP

> Gen. Hillier has done his thing and has done it efficiently. It is no longer imperative that he stay on as our military leader. As opposed to his style, Canadians seem to prefer the moderation that has infused our foreign policy for decades and that has served us well.



I would suggest Lawrence Martin  and Lloyd Axeworthy must snuggle up quite nicely.....what unmitigated crap!


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

GAP said:
			
		

> I would suggest Lawrence Martin  and Lloyd Axeworthy must snuggle up quite nicely.....what unmitigated crap!



But that stuff goes down really well for the average voter in Toronto for whom he mostly writes.


----------



## Brad Sallows

I believe Martin would be much happier with a Liberal government in Parliament and a politically-focused lickspittle in the CDS's chair.  That much is easy to understand, and therefore to dismiss as mere partisanship.

The "Sun King"* is a reference to Harper, not Hillier.  That minor detail aside, Blatchford is correct: Canada's peacekeeping efforts during the '90s confer credit on those who were there for doing what they were permitted to do and knowing what they should have done, but very little credit at all - and some debit - on Canada as a nation.  The fact Canada was "there" showing a UN flag is overshadowed by the facts of what Canada failed to do while Canada was present.  If I was present and did little or nothing at a disaster scene, I would not run around crowing in the cocktail circuits for merely being there, and stake that as my policy goal.

*And while the nickname was conferred on Louis XIV for reasons of which some are commendable and some not, the original "Sun King" led France during what was arguably one of its golden ages, a fair part of which could be attributed to the "Sun King".  Martin might wish to reconsider his nicknames if he wishes to emphasize Harper as a centre of ego rather than an above-average governor.


----------



## geo

Brad.... Liberal dislikes asside, it's the Liberals who appointed Gen Hillier to the CDS' post... and

WRT the 90s... remember how long it took for the Gov't to recognize our efforts in Medak?
The 90s weren,t the good old days  - they were dark days indeed... Lest we forget.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Yes, which is why I refer to a "politically focused lickspittle" rather than a "politically focused Liberal lickspittle".  The point is that in certain quarters, the CDS is seen as someone who should be part of the team which helps deliver the government of the time from its own embarrassments.  Some CDS have been more willing to acquiesce to that role than others.


----------



## Kirkhill

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> But that stuff goes down really well for the average voter in Toronto for whom he mostly writes.



Amen.


----------



## schart28

CanWest News Service
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=2da4ce70-777e-4378-9efd-a298645bdef2&k=16594

OTTAWA -- Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie will have his hands full in the coming year, especially if he stays in his current job as head of Canada's army.

Leslie is no stranger to the public spotlight. As a former commander of Canadian troops in Afghanistan, he distinguished himself as a polished communicator who combined the main elements of the modern military leader - part warrior, part diplomat, part CEO.

Leslie also has been a staunch defender of the welfare his troops fighting the Taliban there. That has included his steadfast defence of the army's controversial decision to lease a small fleet of German Leopard tanks for the army in Afghanistan.


Font:****But these days, when the 50-year-old general's name is uttered around Ottawa, it is as one of two candidates who possibly might succeed Gen. Rick Hillier as chief of the defence staff. (The other is vice-chief of the defence staff, Lt.-Gen. Walt Natynczyk, who also brings the same combination of brains and brawn to the senior ranks of military leadership).

Retired colonel Alain Pellerin, executive director of the Conference of Defence Associations, says it is unlikely Hillier will step down in 2008. The whisper campaigns and trial balloons that suggested the popular Newfoundlander might be replaced backfired badly when they unleashed a torrent of popular support among rank and file troops.

But that doesn't mean Leslie's role will be any less important.

As chief of the land staff, it is Leslie's job to find soldiers for each six-month rotation of the approximately 2,500 troops bound for Afghanistan.

"It gets more difficult as time goes on, not to send the same people back," says Pellerin.

At most, the army has a pool of 9,000 to 10,000 full-time soldiers as well as several thousand part-time reserves to draw from to staff Afghanistan. The army is responsible for a minimum of 2,200 of the 2,500 that staff each rotation, says Pellerin.

Compounding the challenge is the fact the rate of soldiers leaving the army has risen to 12 per cent from eight per cent.

But Leslie must do more than find warm bodies to ship to Afghanistan with a rifle. He must build a contingent of soldiers that can shoot to kill, deliver aid, and negotiate the cultural divide of that country.

"It's small unit warfare. You've got the young officers and the senior NCOs that have to deal with the population and have to deal with issues that go much further than military issues," says Pellerin.

In Leslie, the soldiers on the ground have a leader who sets a good example on that front.

As he has risen through the ranks, Leslie has amassed degrees from Canadian universities as well as from the Harvard Business School, and was working on his PhD at Royal Military College in Kingston, Ont. His military training has included a range of specialized instruction from tactics, combat intelligence to hand-to-hand combat.

After his 2003 stint as deputy commander of NATO forces in Kabul, he was awarded the Meritorious Service Cross.

He comes from a distinguished military lineage. Both his grandfathers - Andrew McNaughton and Brooke Claxton - fought at Vimy Ridge in 1917 and went on to become both generals and defence ministers. His father commanded the Royal Canadian Horse artillery during the Korean War.


----------



## axeman

wow if rumour control is right we will have another effective soldier in charge of it all again . maybe just maybe things will continue to improve for the CF as a whole . from what ive sen of him as a leader, he can play political and warrior both just like Hillier


----------



## George Wallace

I see LGen Natynczyk as being more in the mould as Gen Hillier.  He is a very personable man who isn't above chipping in and working with the troops.  LGen Leslie on the other hand is more ambitious and 'political'.  I am not sure that is quite the mix we would need as CDS.  LGen Leslie may have reached the point where he can do the most good, and still be reined in should he go overboard.  I am not sure the other two Components of the CF see him in the same light as the Army, in taking the CF back to being as functional and properly equipped as it should.  He may be too "Army centric" for them.


----------



## Jammer

Either way the CF wins.
Nostalgically though, I'd like to see gen Natynczyk get the job.


----------



## tomahawk6

My money is on Natynczyk IF a change is made.I think though Hillier will stay on.


----------



## KevinB

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> My money is on Natynczyk IF a change is made.I think though Hillier will stay on.



+1

 Leslies' HATE ON for CANSOF makes him a liability wrt COIN ops in Afghan, and elsewhere - that and his general dislike of the other elements make it unlikely for him to go futher.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Jean Chretien was prime minister for what, 10 YEARS?  I wouldn't complain if General Hillier stayed in his place longer..


----------



## brihard

Right on. Whether it's Gens. Leslie or Natynczyk (holy crap, I spelled it right first try. ), I'm sure we'll be in good hands.

Has there been any official discussion of a step-down date for Gen. Hillier yet?


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I see LGen Natynczyk as being more in the mould as Gen Hillier.  He is a very personable man who isn't above chipping in and working with the troops.  LGen Leslie on the other hand is more ambitious and 'political'.  I am not sure that is quite the mix we would need as CDS.  LGen Leslie may have reached the point where he can do the most good, and still be reined in should he go overboard.  I am not sure the other two Components of the CF see him in the same light as the Army, in taking the CF back to being as functional and properly equipped as it should.  He may be too "Army centric" for them.



+1 George. That's exactly what I hear from navy and air types wrt to Army centric and Leslie. I think Uncle Walt is the man for the job but they haven't asked me yet. ;D


----------



## kincanucks

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> +1
> 
> Leslies' HATE ON for CANSOF makes him a liability wrt COIN ops in Afghan, and elsewhere - that and his general dislike of the other elements make it unlikely for him to go futher.



Ack it won't be Leslie.


----------



## Gunner98

LGen Leslie just turned 50 and has only been CLS for 18 months.  He has big plans to reformat the domestic force layout.  There is lots of time for further development/opportunities. He certainly has a better shot at CDS than many of us on this site.


----------



## NCRCrow

Navy CDS....1994...2008


----------



## geo

LGen Leslie does not like the .COM structure that has been imposed by the CDS.
Good chance that CAN.COM, CEF.COM and CANSOF.COM would all be targeted for review/replacement if the CLS moved up to CDS.
The previous CLS (Caron) didn't like being put on the sideline by the CDS when the .COMs were implemented.  Leslie has been bucking the system from day 1..... even though he knew exactly what he was getting into when he accepted the position. (go figure)

Gen Natynczyk has a similar background to the current CDS and would probably pursue / continue the policies that Gen Hillier has initiated.

From a personal perspective, if I were a betting man, my nod would go to Natynczyk...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> +1
> 
> Leslies' HATE ON for CANSOF makes him a liability wrt COIN ops in Afghan, and elsewhere - that and his general dislike of the other elements make it unlikely for him to go futher.



Good Lord. That's madness. Why would any General 'hate' these types of organizations? It's too bad...


----------



## MarkOttawa

Further speculation (note the author):
http://communities.canada.com/ottawacitizen/blogs/defencewatch/archive/2007/12/22/general-hillier-intends-on-staying-in-the-job.aspx


> ...
> One view is that Gen.Hillier will last at least another two years before Air Force Commander Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt is selected for the position of CDS.
> 
> But if Watt is to ever assume the CDS mantle, he’ll have to get used to being in the public eye and dealing with politicians and the media, something Gen. Hillier has excelled in. The result of Gen. Hillier’s efforts has been an unprecedented period of largely positive media coverage and political approval for large-scale equipment purchases.
> 
> It might be still too early to suggest a successor. A lot of things can happen in the meantime and it is the government, after all, who will decide who will be the next CDS.
> 
> And, of course, I wouldn’t rule out Army commander Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie who has been eyeing the job for many years. Lt.-Gen. Leslie is smooth with the politicos as well as possessing media savvy. Like it or not, these are attributes seen as necessary to be a successful CDS these days.



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## tomahawk6

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Good Lord. That's madness. Why would any General 'hate' these types of organizations? It's too bad...



Tongue in cheek right ? ;D


----------



## HItorMiss

My hope is that it goes to Gen. Natynczyk  As the VCDS he has done good things and the rank and file of the CF view him in the same light  as Hillier. Gen Leslie dislike for CANSOF is well known I think because it's less warm bodies he can throw into the line, but then again conventional Generals rarely grasp what SF unots bring to the table unless they themselves have been in SF ( Gen Schwarzkopf disliked SF units till Gen La Pellier I believe himself fomer SAS pushed for the inclusion of them in the batlle plan). 

I hope Hillier stays on for a bit yet myself but when he does go I am ope Walt steps into his shoes


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

One thing all of us have to realize is that this is not about popularity. It does not matter a rat's behind whether this guy is popular with the troops or the country or whatever...this is totally political. Gen Hillier made his mark by appealing to the Government of the day...which happened to be the Martin Liberals...he has proved to be popular with the rank and file and that is a bonus for the present Government (from time to time). They will not choose the next guy on whether he looks good in the media or if he is "your favorite" believe me.


----------



## tomahawk6

Its his popularity with the nation and the military that the PM should embrace rather than to fight the CDS by stealth.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Its his popularity with the nation and the military that the PM should embrace rather than to fight the CDS by stealth.



Tomahawk....this is the first CDS in living memory who has ever made any headway with popular opinion in Canada. Most Canadians don't even know we have an Armed Forces...believe me. When I joined the Navy in the late 70's my friends were astounded that we even had a Navy! For most people in Central Canada they don't care from one day to the other whether we have an Armed Forces or not. The average yuppie in Toronto...the vast majority of our voters...think that we are neutral and pacifist when it comes to nasty things like war and agressive actions against terrorists. They'll all gladly vote Bob Rae into office next spring and hope that we return to wearing blue helmets...the sooner the cheaper.  :rage:


----------



## geo

Last all round popular CDS prior to Hillier?  Jaydex? (Dextraze)


----------



## JVJA

Well, I am an average Canadian, and soldier of 14 years... I can barely recite 2 of the last CDSs'.   General Hillier has certainly made his mark, and I would applaud another year or two from him.  

As for General Leslie, I have seen him as Bg Comd and he seems to have done a fine job with that, but otherwise I have no opinion


----------



## X Royal

I'll be quite surprised if the next CDS doesn't come from either the Navy or Air Force.


----------



## Roy Harding

X Royal said:
			
		

> I'll be quite surprised if the next CDS doesn't come from either the Navy or Air Force.



*I'll *be quite surprised if the Government which appoints the next CDS pays much attention to this particular thread.


----------



## Garett

Gen Natynczyk's Iraq experience and the fact that he's the same MOC as Gen Hillier might make the difference.  I think Gen. Leslie might connect with the civie's and politicians better though, especially if Gen Natynczk is still saying 'y'all' from his time in Texas.


----------



## guns_and_roses

Iraq experience?


----------



## kincanucks

Future_Soldier said:
			
		

> Iraq experience?



Check his bio.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dsa/app_Bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyViewBiling_e.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=307

"LGen Natynczyk attended the U.S. Army War College and was subsequently appointed Deputy Commanding General, III Corps and Fort Hood. In January 2004, he deployed with III Corps to Baghdad, Iraq, serving first as the Deputy Director of Strategy, Policy and Plans and subsequently as the Deputy Commanding General of the Multi-National Corps (Iraq)."


----------



## BF1

I see a lot of comments here on how "Army centric" LGen Leslie is.  Well, he is the Chief of LAND Staff, so I hope he is Army Centric!


----------



## Gunner98

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Check his bio. http://www.forces.gc.ca/dsa/app_Bio/engraph/FSeniorOfficerBiographyViewBiling_e.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=307
> 
> "LGen Natynczyk attended the U.S. Army War College and was subsequently appointed Deputy Commanding General, III Corps and Fort Hood. In January 2004, he deployed with III Corps to Baghdad, Iraq, serving first as the Deputy Director of Strategy, Policy and Plans and subsequently as the Deputy Commanding General of the Multi-National Corps (Iraq)."



Since Gen Hillier was the first Cdn Gen to serve in this capacity at Fort Hood and Gen Natynczyk the second came through the same MOC/career progression and III Corps is "unofficially known Armoured or Calvary Corps" does any of this make a big difference to this discussion. One could argue that LGen Leslie lacks the Iraq experience for now.  It is certainly a good international/coalition flavour for resume when it goes before the PM. 



The third man to serve in this capacity is MGen P. Devlin (RCR), he is/was one of the 2 Deputy Commanders of III Corps in Iraq.


----------



## MarkOttawa

It seems to me that Gen. Natynczyk's role in Iraq might make him rather controversial politically, and amongst our punditry and certain academics.  I think it would take real guts for the Conservatives to appoint him; the Liberals surely would not.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

BF1 said:
			
		

> I see a lot of comments here on how "Army centric" LGen Leslie is.  Well, he is the Chief of LAND Staff, so I hope he is Army Centric!



Yes that's a good thing when you're CLS but not when you're the CDS. If the attitude as CDS is that the other 2 branchs of the CF are simply there to get the Army where they need to go you will diminish the overall capacity of the organization. We still have one of the longest coastlines in the world to defend and Naval and Air assests have to be utilized for that....guys in CADPAT and rubber boats won't quite cut it I'm afraid.


----------



## geo

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> It seems to me that Gen. Natynczyk's role in Iraq might make him rather controversial politically, and amongst our punditry and certain academics.  I think it would take real guts for the Conservatives to appoint him; the Liberals surely would not.
> 
> Mark
> Ottawa


There was a little bit of contreversy about his deployment to Iraq ..... but he received formal blessing from both the Conservatives AND the Liberals under Jean Chrétien.  So, while Mr Dion may toady to old Jean and diss Paul Martin's actions & decisions, there wouldn't be much grounds to diss Gen Natynczyk's nomination.


----------



## 54/102 CEF

Our next CDS, if from the Army, should be a Battlegroup Commander from Bosnia - or an Air Wing Commander from same era.  Our recalled from ADM MAT - Gen Ross.

And he should have brass knuckles.

But don't all roads to the future run through Dwyer Hill? Or Halifax or Winnipeg? 

Sort of a pipe dream to forget the other branches of the service.


----------



## MarkOttawa

geo: I'm afraid you're applying logic to politics and punditry ;D!
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/12/i-wonder-what-m-dion-thinks.html

As for certain academics and experts:
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/12/prof-byers-self-psychotherapy.html
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/10/jack-granatstein-unstaples-steves-paper.html
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/06/what-kind-of-canadian-do-you-prefer.html

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## geo

Applying logic to politics?.... OOPSIE!  SORRY!  What was I thinking?

regardless, excluding my area commander who oft accepts my opinion (written & with full supporting references), no one pays me much heed.


----------



## tabernac

I don't know who will be chosen to replace him, but they will have a hard time filling his shoes.


----------



## sigtech

Guess we will have to wait out and see what comes of this,


----------



## vonGarvin

sigtech said:
			
		

> Guess we will have to wait out and see what comes of this,


Here's my prediction
A Lieutenant General will replace General Hillier as CDS.

Remember, you heard it here first.

EDITED to fix my loss of knowledge of the rank structure.  Time for me to head back and redo that OPME!!!


----------



## OldSolduer

A Major General overshooting LGenerals? That is unlikely, but in this day and age, one never knows.


----------



## vonGarvin

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> A Major General overshooting LGenerals? That is unlikely, but in this day and age, one never knows.


:rofl:

OK, my error.  A LGen!  

(Anyone got a towel? I have egg all over my face!)
(PS: thanks for that)


----------



## Teflon

Just called my CM,... it isn't me!


----------



## George Wallace

There are several prominent candidates.  LGen Natynczyk would top my list.  LGen Leslie is too Army Centric to appeal to the other Elements.  Politically, it would likely be a Naval or Air candidate for CDS.


----------



## davidk

I agree that LGen Natynczyk would be the ideal candidate for CDS, but is there anything fundamentally wrong with being army-centric like LGen Leslie? Didn't many people think the same of Gen Hillier when he got the job?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Don't count out LGen Gauthier.

One _principle_ this government, for partisan political reasons, might not want to bend is "alternate Anglophone/Francophone."


----------



## The Bread Guy

Not up on names, but I worry about statements attributed to the incumbent to the effect of, "General Hillier directed that no soldier injured in Afghanistan is to be released from the military without his express authority." 

No matter who comes in next, I'd like to see a clear, unequivocal re-iteration of such a policy - anything less, sadly, can always be used to make things happen VERY differently.



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> One _principle_ this government, for partisan political reasons, might not want to bend is "alternate Anglophone/Francophone."



Esp. with the minority political machine seeking more Quebec support...


----------



## George Wallace

HighlandIslander said:
			
		

> I agree that LGen Natynczyk would be the ideal candidate for CDS, but is there anything fundamentally wrong with being army-centric like LGen Leslie? Didn't many people think the same of Gen Hillier when he got the job?



Leslie if is too political, too Army Centric; more-so than General Hillier ever was.  General Hillier had a fairly evenly rounded approach to all elements.  Leslie not.  Leslie would also kill the Reserves, not that they aren't already in dire straits now under him.


----------



## davidk

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Leslie would also kill the Reserves, not that they aren't already in dire straits now under him.



Now that bit I don't like...

Anyone have any idea how the other potential candidates would deal with that issue?


----------



## George Wallace

We may have to give the Government some time to gauge their thoughts and will.  Will they go for a "Change of Elements" (Air or Sea) or not?  Bilingualism is a nonstarter, as all General Officers are expected to be bilingual, the same as Senior Civil Servants.


----------



## garb811

You would think the CDS would have had the courtesy to give the PM advance notice so it may not be all that long before an answer is forthcoming.


----------



## George Wallace

garb811 said:
			
		

> You would think the CDS would have had the courtesy to give the PM advance notice so it may not be all that long before an answer is forthcoming.



From another topic:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/72963/post-701111.html#msg701111


----------



## Babbling Brooks

I'm hearing one name coming through the static as a replacement: Walt Natynczyk.  For what it's worth...


----------



## OldSolduer

One never knows.....I just hope that they select the best person for the job, regardless of element.


----------



## armyvern

Babbling Brooks said:
			
		

> I'm hearing one name coming through the static as a replacement: Walt Natynczyk.  For what it's worth...



I'd certainly be OK with that.


----------



## Gazoo

LGen Natynczyk was just here at CFSACO last week, it would have been interesting to know if he knew anything about Gen Hilliers plan back then.  He sure seemed to be smiling a lot, but maybe that was his son just graduated the AEC Weapons course.


----------



## KevinB

FYI since they dont seem to want a Patrica, I think LGen Natynczyk would be a excellent choice.

I think Gen Hillier has had an excellent run, but it is time to pass the torch and let the next one take over.  Failure to ensure cycling of the systme will result in stagnation -- not nec. Gen H - but those below him.


----------



## kincanucks

Gazoo said:
			
		

> LGen Natynczyk was just here at CFSACO last week, it would have been interesting to know if he knew anything about Gen Hilliers plan back then.  He sure seemed to be smiling a lot, but maybe that was his son just graduated the AEC Weapons course.



Has it been that long since I enrolled his son for ROTP?


----------



## Edward Campbell

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> FYI since they dont seem to want a Patrica, I think LGen Natynczyk would be a excellent choice.
> 
> I think Gen Hillier has had an excellent run, *but it is time to pass the torch and let the next one take over.  Failure to ensure cycling of the systme will result in stagnation* -- not nec. Gen H - but those below him.



Bang on, I-6, he's done a great job but change is good.

As to not wanting a Patricia: maybe it's just a matter of good taste?


----------



## Yrys

Peter MacKay just said in the "question period" that they (gov) will work with the forces to assured the same leadership for the next CDS
(after speaking of the qualities Hillier had/has as CDS).


----------



## OldSolduer

Same type leadership as General Hillier?? Yikes.,......two in a row...?? Be still my pounding heart!!


----------



## Babbling Brooks

I've posted some speculation about the possible successors here:

http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/04/breaking-cds-gen-hillier-to-step-down.html

I will say that I had heard RUMINT last week that Hillier could be stepping down as early as this week, and dismissed it as unlikely.  Shows what I know.  :

But the name I'm hearing this week - from the same place that was right about the timings last week - is Uncle Walt.

We'll see...


----------



## RHFC_piper

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> Not up on names, but I worry about statements attributed to the incumbent to the effect of, "General Hillier directed that no soldier injured in Afghanistan is to be released from the military without his express authority."
> 
> No matter who comes in next, I'd like to see a clear, unequivocal re-iteration of such a policy - anything less, sadly, can always be used to make things happen VERY differently.
> 
> Esp. with the minority political machine seeking more Quebec support...



_You're_ worried about this?  I'm a little more than worried.

Since 04 SEPT 08, everything for me had been on a "day by day" basis... until I had been given options; by the CDS (letting broken soldiers stay in), the CMP (for working out the kinks) and the LFCA Cmdr for offering me work where ever I want it, whenever I want it, as well as the option to go back to school...  Since all these options have been offered I have felt a profound sense of security and stability; enough to start planning for the future...  Now that the LFCA cmdr and CDS are moving on, everything seems to be up in the air again... and all I can do is "watch and shoot".

Perhaps I'm being pessimistic, but I've been hosed before...     


I just hope who ever is on deck has the same mindset as Gen Hillier.


----------



## armyvern

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> _You're_ worried about this?  I'm a little more than worried.
> ...
> I just hope who ever is on deck has the same mindset as Gen Hillier.




Perhaps more of a mindset??

We have soldiers who are broken from missions OTHER than Afghanistan too -- but they sometimes seem to be forgotten by the wayside. They ARE out there. Perhaps this should be expanded to include them?? I know a couple of them who are most certainly feeling "hosed" because their injuries happened to have occured under "blue" or other "NATO" rather than in the sandbox. 

My .02 cents worth.

Edited to add: Focus on Afghanistan is good -- we are an Army at war after all, but others still exist ... and it seems we forget them more and more often these days. Witness the thread about the _still_-lacking recognition from Op Sculpture and Op Halo. Still no medal to show for their great efforts, still dealing with their injuries too.


----------



## RHFC_piper

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Perhaps more of a mindset??
> 
> We have soldiers who are broken from missions OTHER than Afghanistan too -- but they sometimes seem to be forgotten by the wayside. They ARE out there. Perhaps this should be expanded to include them?? I know a couple of them who are most certainly feeling "hosed" because their injuries happened to have occurred under "blue" or other "NATO" rather than in the sandbox.
> 
> My .02 cents worth.
> 
> Edited to add: Focus on Afghanistan is good -- we are an Army at war after all, but others still exist ... and it seems we forget them more and more often these days. Witness the thread about the _still_-lacking recognition from Op Sculpture and Op Halo. Still no medal to show for their great efforts, still dealing with their injuries too.



Agreed.   My main worry is that things will revert rather than improve.    At least now we have someone who has taken a proactive role in supporting the troops... What if (this is a speculation thread) the next CDS believes the "old way" wasn't broken and doesn't seen the need for the improvements that have been made? Lot's of troops are going to find themselves at VACs door step...  If VAC is having problems now, it'll only be worse in this scenario.

Granted, there are a lot of other wounded soldiers who should be equally cared for, but change is difficult. Things have changed for the better, very quickly, for those who have been wounded in combat, thanks to the CDS directives, it only stands to reason that, in time, these changes could/would spread across the board to all the wounded/injured.  Gen Hillier has set a lot of new precedence in his time as CDS.  

Here's hoping this progressive ideology continues... and grows.





BTW; I'm very surprised about Op Sculpture and Op Halo....  Thats just BS (the fact that they're not recognized by medal).    But that's a discussion for another thread...


----------



## Nordman

Babbling Brooks said:
			
		

> I've posted some speculation about the possible successors here:
> 
> http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/04/breaking-cds-gen-hillier-to-step-down.html
> 
> I will say that I had heard RUMINT last week that Hillier could be stepping down as early as this week, and dismissed it as unlikely.  Shows what I know.  :
> 
> But the name I'm hearing this week - from the same place that was right about the timings last week - is Uncle Walt.
> 
> We'll see...



this article in the above post is the most realistic examination of the topic I have seen....

I do not think simply trowing around army names is going to find us a realistic hypothesis of who we might see in the CDS role!
you do not have to be VCDS or CLS to become a contender for CDS

lets here some conversation about Angus Watt...... lets here some conversation about some other dark and light blue guys.....


Maybe even some complete outsiders to the traditionational command roles like Lgen J. Arp.... or Lgen Bouchard


----------



## riggermade

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Perhaps more of a mindset??
> 
> We have soldiers who are broken from missions OTHER than Afghanistan too -- but they sometimes seem to be forgotten by the wayside. They ARE out there. Perhaps this should be expanded to include them?? I know a couple of them who are most certainly feeling "hosed" because their injuries happened to have occured under "blue" or other "NATO" rather than in the sandbox.
> 
> My .02 cents worth.
> 
> Edited to add: Focus on Afghanistan is good -- we are an Army at war after all, but others still exist ... and it seems we forget them more and more often these days. Witness the thread about the _still_-lacking recognition from Op Sculpture and Op Halo. Still no medal to show for their great efforts, still dealing with their injuries too.



Vern 

I have to agree with you, after doing four tours before I got out I saw guys injured and then shoved aside...while I agree the guys in Afghanistan need to be taken care of there is alot of soldiers out there who have done their time and have had injuries and have had no support from the CF or VA


----------



## Babbling Brooks

Hillier's retirement message, now up at DND:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=2622

Godspeed, General.


----------



## GAP

Like everything else Hillier has approached, his retirement message was a class act...


----------



## aesop081

GAP said:
			
		

> Like everything else Hillier has approached, his retirement message was a class act...



And when he sent it on Outlook, he even recalled it twice....LOL


----------



## MarkOttawa

Nordman: I've been lucky enough to hear Lt.-Gen. Watt speak to a small group.  One of the most impressive people I've ever seen.  Smart, witty, knowledgeable--and pretty frank.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act, is an extract from today’s _National Post_ that provides neat, thumbnail bios of the five candidates:



> * Among the leading candidates to succeed Gen. Hillier are:*
> 
> *Lt.-Gen. Michel Gauthier:* Responsible for all troops overseas as head of Canadian Expeditionary Force Command since September 2005. Sublimely bilingual combat engineer with UN peacekeeping tours in Croatia and Bosnia. Was previously attached to CENTCOM, which directs the U.S. war on terror. Also headed military intelligence. Praised for Canada’s Kandahar mission by General Dan McNeill, the top U.S. general in Afghanistan. Kept a low profile until recently, when he began to promote what Canadian troops were achieving in South Asia.
> 
> *Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie:* Commander of the army. Artillery gunner with an infantry background. His father and grandfathers have served at the top of Canada’s military/political establishment. Peacekeeping stints in Cyprus, Croatia and Afghanistan, where he was the deputy commander of NATO’s International Security and Assistance Force. Highly educated. Polished public performer, at ease with the media and politicians as well as with the troops, who admire his willingness to go in harm’s way to get an understanding of the battle space.
> 
> *Lt.-Gen. Walt Natynczyk:* Vice-chief of defence staff. An armoured officer and a westerner. Peacekeeping assignments in Cyprus, Bosnia (twice) and Croatia. As an exchange officer, served as deputy commander of the U.S. Army’s III Corps. Deployed to Iraq for one year, where he held a senior position in plans and was deputy commanding general of the Multinational Corps. Highly respected by Americans he served with there. Popular with the troops because of his affability and magnetism. Currently helps with some of the most ticklish files, such as helicopter procurement.
> 
> *Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt:* Commander of the air force. A helicopter pilot with several graduate degrees. Worked closely for much of his career with the navy. Has held senior staff jobs with NATO and NORAD. Served for a year in Kabul as commander of NATO’s complex air war in Afghanistan. Like almost everyone in the air force, he advocates giving it a bigger role in South Asia.
> 
> *Vice-Admiral Drew Robertson:* commander of the navy. A graduate in engineering physics and a surface warfare specialist with numerous commands of warships. As a commodore after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, assembled the largest Canadian fleet since Korea and took it to the Persian Gulf and Arabian Sea in support of operations in Afghanistan. Regarded as modest, reserved and cerebral with an ability to nourish collegial relations.



There are five well qualified candidates and that means that we need to upgrade our estimates of, at least:

•	Gen (Ret’d) Ramsey Withers – CDS from 1980-83

•	Gen (Ret’d) Gérard Thériault – CDS from 83-86

•	Gen (Ret'd) Paul Manson - CDS from 86–89

Those worthy gentlemen created a _climate_ in which young officers like Rick Hillier, and admirals/generals Gauthier, Leslie, Natynczyk, Robertson, and Watt could serve with pride and good career prospects. It was not easy to do in the ‘80s. Gen Hillier’s famous “decade of darkness” was, in fact, decade*s* of neglect including several years in which the CF was actively denigrated by the national leadership.

The fact that we’ve had a Rick Hillier and are very likely to get another strong leader with outstanding military qualifications is a tribute to those most senior officers who, thirty-five or so years ago, worked very, very hard to defeat the political and social “barbarians at the gate” who were determined to emasculate the CF and turn us all into baby-blue beret wearing _peacekeepers_.


----------



## observor 69

Anglo-Franco

Lt.-Gen. Michel Gauthier ?

And after Foreign Minister Maxime Bernier put his foot in it  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080415.AFGHAN15/TPStory/TPInternational/Asia/

Harper might see the political benefit in Quebec.


----------



## NCRCrow

I think General Hillier did an outstanding job but its time to...GO NAVY! (insert cheesy Village people song)


----------



## George Wallace

Looks like there are three very strong contenders in that group, covering all three Elements.  That leaves us still with the quandary as to which direction the Government will take:  Rotate the appointment through the Elements or "Merit List the Candidates" ignoring the 'political' rotation through the Elements.

Anglo-Franco is a non-starter, as all at that rank are supposed to be bilingual.  For the RCD and 12me RBC members, you may remember the Addy brothers.  One was officially Anglo and the other was officially Franco.  One commanded the RCD and the other the 12me RBC.


----------



## tomahawk6

If its to be rotated then the Navy would be up next. But Hillier might have made a deal to have another Army officer become CDS and my vote would be Lt.-Gen. Walt Natynczyk. As stated he would be another charismatic officer who seems to be on board with the modernization program which is ongoing.


----------



## OldSolduer

I strongly encourage any government bureaucrat who has anything to do with selecting the next CDS to bear this in mind:

It's time to stop appeasing various special interest groups, industrial people, bureaucrats and politicians (those both in and out of uniform).

We in the CF need the right person leading us...not "managing" us.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I agree with the right person for the job, not the 'next up' rotation between the environments.  However as politics are involved (in and out of uniform), who knows.


----------



## Edward Campbell

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> I strongly encourage any government bureaucrat who has anything to do with selecting the next CDS to bear this in mind:
> 
> It's time to stop appeasing various special interest groups, industrial people, bureaucrats and politicians (those both in and out of uniform).
> 
> We in the CF need the right person leading us...not "managing" us.



That will be Kevin Lynch, Clerk of the Privy Council, and we have examined his views on DND here.

I have not seen any indication that the mistrust of DND's management abilities, which pervaded _official Ottawa_ in the '90s, has abated. That's not the CDS' fault, but it colours _perceptions_ about all of DND, including the CF.


[Edit to insert an "o" in 'color' in the coding.    ]


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I agree with the right person for the job, not the 'next up' rotation between the environments.



The problem there is who knows who the "right" person is?.......did anyone* really* think Mr. Hillier would shine like he did?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> The problem there is who knows who the "right" person is?.......did anyone* really* think Mr. Hillier would shine like he did?



True enough.  I guess I should re-word my comments to say "I hope that the DEU isn't one of the items at the top of the list, and potential solid candidates to succeed Gen Hillier are not overlooked because of the color of their DEU".


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

With that I concur.


----------



## GUNS

I think the present CDS will have some input as to who will be the next CDS.

It has been proven in the past that the "next turn" policy for CDS does not work.

Its time for our government to adopt the "best person for the position" attitude. The CDS job should be earned and not handed out because some General is next in line.

Canada's present commitment is to A'stan which is ground intensive with support from the Sea and Air elements.

If Canada finds itself in another drawn out conflict where Sea or Air are the main front line elements then the appropriated CDS could apply.

my two cents.


----------



## MG34

Lt.-Gen.  Leslie
Lt.-Gen.  Natynczyk
Seem to be the top contenders in my neck of the woods with the edge going to Lt Gen Natynczyk after his tour in Iraq and experience in counter insurgency operations. As forthe issue of  who gets the job it should be a case of the best man, not DEU colour as a place holder is not what we need at this time.


----------



## Babbling Brooks

Further to my post yesterday about Natynczyk, I'm hearing that two names have been forwarded to the politicians and bureaucrats for consideration: Natynczyk for CDS, and Watt for VCDS.  Which doesn't mean the others aren't still in the running, just that we've got some serious front-runners.

RUMINT, but I trust the people I'm hearing it from.


----------



## KevinB

Leslie is IMHO a non starter -- he hates SF, AF and Navy.  I think a lot of others know that too...


----------



## 2fly

A contender would also be VAdmiral Davidson (http://www.nato.int/cv/milrep/cv-mlrp.htm).  Gen Hilliar went to Nato before CDS and did a fair amount of multi-national work.  Davidson is almost done with his Nato stint and would make a good CDS, he is another leader that is for the troops.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Here, reproduced under he Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_, is an interesting opinion piece by Prof Doug Bland of Queens University:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080417.wcohillier17/BNStory/specialComment/home


> Picking our top soldier is a rather casual affair
> *The Afghan backdrop may concentrate the PM's mind*
> 
> DOUGLAS BLAND
> 
> From Thursday's Globe and Mail
> April 17, 2008 at 8:41 AM EDT
> 
> Canadians might think that the selection of the chief of the defence staff - our top soldier - would greatly occupy prime ministers. After all, the CDS is the government's military adviser, sharing responsibility for the defence of Canada, managing a budget of billions of dollars, commanding more than 80,000 members of the Canadian Forces, and holding their lives in his hands. Yet, the history of how officers are selected for this office reveals a surprisingly casual process.
> 
> In interviews with every officer who has held the office since its establishment in 1964, the usual response to the question "Why were you selected as the CDS?" is simply, "I have no idea." Officers did sometimes speak about the circumstances of the day, the "luck of the timing" in the sense that they were in an advantageous position when the incumbent stood down. But all agreed that the selection process had no set criteria and no predictable outcome.
> 
> The chief of the defence staff "serves at pleasure." He (and some day she) is formally appointed by the Governor-General on the prime minister's recommendation. There is no set period of service - officers usually serve for three or four years, though some have served longer and one has held the office twice. There is no rotation by service between naval, army and air force officers - six air force, five army and two naval officers have held the office.
> 
> The National Defence Act sets out the basic duties of the CDS, but, other than custom, there is no other significant indicator to guide the prime minister's assessment of candidates. Indeed, there is no legal requirement that the CDS be an officer of the Canadian Forces. During one changeover period in the early 1980s, a Reserve general officer wrote to the minister of national defence and "volunteered" to be the CDS. His selfless gesture was turned down promptly.
> 
> Chiefs of the defence staff are usually selected after a quiet bureaucratic hunt for advice from the serving CDS, former chiefs, other senior retired officers, and civilians and academics associated with the Canadian Forces. The serious inquiry, however, takes place mostly inside the Ottawa establishment, where former and serving clerks of the Privy Council and assorted deputy ministers are asked to weigh the qualifications of candidates.
> 
> Prime ministers have often left the final recommendation to others, notably to their defence ministers and senior members of the Prime Minister's Office. In the PMO, a candidate's "political reliability" and his understanding of the government's (usually limited) interests in matters of defence policy have carried considerable weight. Like Mackenzie King, every prime minister is keen on "silent soldiers and sailors, too."
> 
> The search for General Rick Hillier's replacement will now begin in earnest and is likely to follow this informal process. Certainly, because of Canada's commitment in Afghanistan, the Prime Minister and his staff will be more engaged in reviewing the suitability of the obvious candidates - serving three-star officers - than has been common in the past.
> 
> But what might be their criteria? They probably will look at the candidates' professional qualifications, their presence in front of the media, linguistic abilities, and public statements. But one suspects they will be most interested in the candidates' sensitivities to the government's need to manage the public's perception of the war in Afghanistan.
> 
> Sensitivity in this context means finding a CDS who would be content with a somewhat diminished public profile and who would agree to calm the rhetoric in public debates between political objectives and military doctrine. The Prime Minister probably will look for an officer who is not keen to out-Hillier Gen. Hillier - that is, someone who is less personally attached than Gen. Hillier is to the history of the Canadian Forces' strategic decisions in Afghanistan.
> 
> In return, the incoming CDS will want to retain a clear distance from partisan politics and set his own agenda for the Canadian Forces. That agenda will most likely require the government to agree in advance to help the next CDS in his major challenge - rebuilding Canada's overburdened and under-resourced armed forces after 2011.
> 
> The domestic 2011 political ceasefire on Canada's future in Afghanistan provides an ideal respite during which Gen. Hillier can depart quietly - "mission accomplished." It will also allow the new CDS a relatively quiet period to change the military's relationship with the government without diminishing Gen. Hillier's enormous successes in connecting the Canadian Forces to Canadians and reinforcing the chief of the defence staff's vital roles in assisting governments in formulating and directing Canada's defence policy.
> 
> But following the usual practice might depend on MPs not insisting that their parliamentary committees should for once have a say in, or at least an opportunity to interview, the candidates who might command the Canadian Forces in dangerous times. But who would bet on such reasonable co-operation in the House of Commons today?
> 
> _Douglas Bland is the author of Chiefs of Defence._


----------



## Good2Golf

garb811 said:
			
		

> You would think the CDS would have had the courtesy to give the PM advance notice so it may not be all that long before an answer is forthcoming.



I don't know, Garb...maybe the PM called him?  

"Gen Hillier, Elections Canada is on its way over to CPC headquarters with a warrant, some RCMP and a gaggle of Liberal videographers....how about you announce your retirement that we discussed earlier right now?  Please?"  ;D 

2 more ¢
G2G


----------



## garb811

Bwahaha!


----------



## OldSolduer

I read with interest the above post regarding the appointment of the CDS to be conisdered a "casual affair". This may have been the case in the past....as all elements want their "turn" at being at the helm of the CF.
Once more, and I'll say this til the mods tell me to "shut it", that the time for an element having its "turn" is childish and archaic. The best person gets the job, man or woman or an alien from Mars.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

> There is no rotation by service between naval, army and air force officers - six air force, five army and two naval officers have held the office.



Seems clear to me


----------



## RHFC_piper

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> The best person gets the job, man or woman or an *alien from Mars*.




Sweet....   Ray guns and robots






The new CDS and his Kill-bot.


----------



## Blackadder1916

*Modelling the modern general*
The new chief of defence staff won't be another Rick Hillier - nor should he try to be 


> Paul Manson    Citizen Special Friday, May 02, 2008
> 
> Advice for the new chief of the defence staff: Don't try to out-Hillier Hillier.
> 
> It can't be done. Living up to his predecessor's legacy will be just one of the challenges facing the senior military officer soon to be chosen by Prime Minister Stephen Harper to succeed Gen. Rick Hillier as Canada's chief of the defence staff.
> 
> It will be an important political decision, not just because of the remarkable profile that Gen. Hillier has brought to the office of the CDS, but also because of the tough agenda that the new incumbent must handle from his first day in office.
> 
> Historically, the question of who will be the next chief is not one that was often asked outside of the Canadian Forces and the small circle of those having an interest in national defence. The Canadian public, by and large, didn't much care about the job of CDS nor the person occupying that office. But Gen. Hillier changed all of that, by sheer force of personality. With his decision to retire this summer at the conclusion of an impressive, highly visible three-year tenure, speculation is rampant about who his successor might be.
> 
> The decision is the prime minister's alone, although he will no doubt receive plenty of advice, notably from the ministers of national defence and foreign affairs, the deputy minister of national defence and other senior bureaucrats, and of course Gen. Hillier himself.
> 
> It won't be an easy decision, if only because, perhaps as never before, Mr. Harper has a truly impressive slate of candidates from which to choose. It is a solid military tradition in Canada, based on much experience, that the head of the armed forces be chosen from among the most senior serving officers, which means those holding lieutenant-general/vice-admiral rank (the "three-star" level, in common usage). Of the 11 officers currently holding this rank, five are viable contenders for promotion to the CDS position, the remaining officers being unlikely candidates for one reason or another, for example being on the point of retirement or having recently been appointed to an international assignment.
> 
> Of the five front-runners, three are senior army officers in key positions. They are Lt.-Gen. Walter Natynczyk (vice-chief of the defence staff), Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie (chief of the land staff), and Lt.-Gen. Michel Gauthier (commander of the Canadian Expeditionary Force Command, in charge of all overseas operations). The other two prime candidates are Vice-Admiral Drew Robertson (chief of the naval staff) and Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt (chief of the air staff).
> 
> The prime minister, in his review of these contenders, will be struck by some quite significant - and encouraging - qualifications common to all five. They have all had extensive operational command experience in volatile regions such as the former Yugoslavia, the Persian Gulf, Iraq and Afghanistan. They all likewise have commanded high-level formations in Canada, as well as having served extensively in senior staff assignments in the Ottawa environment, notably at National Defence HQ.
> 
> This hands-on operational experience is balanced, in all five cases, by a notable intellectual capacity. Among them, they hold enough post-graduate degrees to form a small university. All five are comfortably bilingual. (Lt.-Gen. Gauthier, a francophone, is equally articulate in English and French.)
> 
> *So, with all of this talent, how is the prime minister going to choose his next CDS? Looking at the question from his point of view, here are some important qualities that he will seek.
> 
> First and foremost, he will want the new CDS to display strong military leadership. Students of military history know that there is no single leadership style that is essential to success; consider, for example, the widely divergent approaches displayed by Dwight Eisenhower and George Patton in the Second World War, each of whom in his own distinct way provided the kind of military leadership called for by the circumstances of the day. History is replete with similar examples.
> 
> Thus the new CDS needn't be a Hillier clone. In fact, given the friction that Gen. Hillier's brash style occasionally generated at the political level, Mr. Harper will likely be looking for a CDS who is somewhat less aggressive, at least in his public pronouncements. This raises an interesting point. Whatever his leadership style, the new incumbent has got to be an effective communicator, able to express himself clearly and effectively to the military, the media, the public and the government alike. At the outset, it will be the first of these where he will meet his greatest challenge. Gen. Hillier earned enormous respect from the rank and file of the military and their families, to the point of adoration. It will be a tough act to follow, but the military family is a loyal bunch, and it will give the new CDS ample opportunity to prove himself.
> 
> Communicating with the other three audiences - the media, the public and the government - will be no less important. As Canada's senior military officer, the new chief will bear the heavy responsibility of bringing to his minister, the cabinet and the prime minister himself a logical and achievable plan for the development and funding of the Forces, presented in such a way that it has the promise of public support. This is critically important at a time when the armed forces face the dual challenge of fighting a tough war in Afghanistan while simultaneously recovering from the severe rundown of personnel and equipment that has resulted from five years of conflict, on top of the sad legacy of the reductions imposed upon the military in the '90s. As if that is not enough, the domestic security tasking in connection with the 2010 Olympics will add heavily to the operational burden, as will the growing focus on the Arctic and the Asia-Pacific regions, and of course defence against terrorism at home and abroad.
> 
> Here's a factor that may not be in the forefront of the Mr. Harper's mind, but one that is important: stamina. The CDS job is incredibly demanding, which is why the term of office rarely exceeds three years. The physical strain of constant globetrotting alone calls for physical fitness and endurance rarely faced by people in their mid-fifties. Incidentally, the frequent absence from Ottawa implies the need for another vital quality, namely the ability to delegate responsibility. Trust and teamwork behind the scenes are essential to a CDS's success.
> 
> Finally, more than ever before the incoming chief of the defence staff must exhibit a generous measure of diplomacy and political sensitivity, on top of all his military skills.*
> 
> Mr. Harper, when he puts all of these factors and more together in making his choice, will certainly have a sense of comfort in the knowledge that he has a lot of outstanding talent to choose from. Whatever his decision, it will inevitably have an important influence on the future course of Canada's military, and of the nation itself.
> 
> General (Ret'd) Paul Manson was Canada's chief of the defence staff from 1986 to 1989 and is past president of the Conference of Defence Associations Institute.


----------



## PMedMoe

Article Link

PM to name Natynczyk as Hillier's replacement
Updated Fri. Jun. 6 2008 8:59 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Gen. Rick Hillier, the outgoing chief of defence staff of the Canadian Forces, will be replaced by Lt.-Gen. Walter Natynczyk, CTV News has learned. 

Natynczyk, who currently serves as vice-chief of defence staff, will replace Hillier after he steps down on July 1. 

Prime Minister Stephen Harper will make the announcement in the House of Commons foyer Friday morning, said CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife. 

More on link


----------



## geo

.... let's wait and see before anyone else starts to post on this thread......


----------



## HItorMiss

Oh please oh please..... ;D


----------



## vonGarvin

TWO black hatter's in a row?  SACRILEGE!  (j/k)

IF this turns out to be true, congrats to the General!


----------



## Jammer

The Dragoon mafia strikes again!!!!

A great man for us once again.


----------



## tabernac

Two Generals with serious operational command experience (IE, commmanding multinational forces in a theatre of war), as well as both having been in the command team of corps (and for Nat, army) sized formations.

I see good things ahead. I hope. 

Congrats General Natynczyk!


----------



## scoutfinch

Jammer said:
			
		

> The Dragoon mafia strikes again!!!!
> 
> A great man for us once again.




.... both started out as VIII Hussars.


----------



## 40below

That's about the worst-kept secret in Ottawa, but I'm glad they're making it official. Natynczyk has struck me as not only a very intelligent and competent commander the times I've talked to him when he was VCDS, but also extremely concerned about both the troops and their families. He'll be a good replacement for Hillier.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

We have dragons in the Army?


----------



## cavalryman

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> We have dragons in the Army?



JTF2 has a squadron of them tucked away at Dwyer Hill :evil:


----------



## Weinie

> JTF2 has a squadron of them tucked away at Dwyer Hill



   One has been dispatched and is on it's way to your location as we speak. Don your asbestos underwear.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Aw crap.  Anyhow.. back on track.. I am glad we'll have another "operational" CDS.  I suspect though that he won't have the same charismatic charm that General Hillier had, we'll see!!


----------



## OldSolduer

Dragons! Yes it's about time!!
 :evil:
I've been an advocate of dragons for some time now!!


----------



## HItorMiss

Bzz

I met Walt and found him very charismatic and easy to talk to justr like Hillier. I think we are in very good hands. Also gald to see that SOF will have another proponent at the helm and not some ego freak who wants to fire them all.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

My mistake.  I meant charismatic towards the public.  We know the celebrity status of Hillier will be hard to match.  I mean, he was on The Hour with George Strombolopoulous the other night.. that's cool stuff.


----------



## exgunnertdo

Ahh, It's all coming clearer now.  Just returned from a ceremony here in my building, and through a very garbled PA system, thought I heard Gen Hillier talking about LGen Natynczyk and say "he's going to make an excellent CDS."  I thought "huh? did I miss an announcement?"

So from the horse's mouth (sort of)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Prime Minister's statement (llink to be posted when available)....

PRIME MINISTER ANNOUNCES THE APPOINTMENT OF A NEW CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE STAFF

June 6, 2008
Ottawa, Ontario

Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced that Lieutenant-General
Walter J. Natynczyk, currently Vice Chief of the Defence Staff, has been
appointed Chief of the Defence Staff, and promoted to the rank of
General. The change of command ceremony will take place in the coming
weeks. 

“Lieutenant-General Walter J. Natynczyk brings strong leadership and
unparalleled experience to his new position,” said Prime Minister
Harper. “His service record includes a broad range of achievement at
home and abroad. The Canadian Forces are a vital institution making a
tremendous contribution to our country. Walter Natynczyk is the ideal
person to lead the Canadian Forces forward.”

General Natynczyk assumed his current position as Vice Chief of the
Defence Staff on June 28, 2006. He has extensive experience leading
forces abroad and at home. He joined the military in 1975 and has held
progressively more senior positions since that time, including the
command of the Canadian Task Force in Bosnia and deputy command of the
U.S. Army Corps in Fort Hood, Texas. This led him to a 15-month
deployment in Iraq as Deputy Commanding General of the Multi-National
Corps. He has served as the Chief Transformation Officer responsible for
the implementation of Canadian Forces restructuring. General Natynczyk
was born in Manitoba and attended Royal Roads Military College and
Collège Militaire Royal, graduating with a degree in Business
Administration.

The Prime Minister took the opportunity to thank General Rick Hillier
for his leadership as the Chief of the Defence Staff since February 2005
and wished him all the best in his future endeavours.


----------



## Haggis

http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?category=1&id=2134


----------



## Edward Campbell

I think this is good news for all concerned: Navy, Army and Air Force.

There will, no doubt, be some weeping and rending of garments in some blue sited cicles but those people are ignoring the fact, and I'm certain it is a fact, that by the time peole get to the three star level they are well schooled in the _Joint_ business and well aware of the *requirments* for and of navies and air forces.

Gen. Natynczyk, having been VCDS, will be acutely aware of the problems facing all three services and the purple parts, too, and he is equally aware of the resources needed to address those problems and fight a war a the same time.


----------



## geo

heh... now everyone can speculate on the musical chairs that'll come
VCDS
Canada.com
CEF.com
SOF.com
Army.ca
Navy.ca
Airforce.ca
and whatever other organisation I might have missed.

Congrats to Gen Natynczyk on his new position

You've got one hell of a pair of boots to fill


----------



## HItorMiss

I don't think SOFCOM is due to change, but I think we will see Leslie moving somewhere...though I have heard that should he not get the CDS postion he was thinking of leaving the CF. That however is just rumor mill


----------



## George Wallace

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> I don't think SOFCOM is due to change, but I think we will see Leslie moving somewhere...though I have heard that should he not get the CDS postion he was thinking of leaving the CF. That however is just rumor mill



Would that have been for "Political Ambitions"?


----------



## Spring_bok

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> I don't think SOFCOM is due to change, but I think we will see Leslie moving somewhere...though I have heard that should he not get the CDS postion he was thinking of leaving the CF. That however is just rumor mill


\
Thanks for keeping a rumour going.  General Leslie could be in line for VCDS, but thats my own speculation not rumour.  See the difference.


----------



## HItorMiss

Hissy fit, political ambition within the Liberal Party...same same LOL

As for speculation vice rumor it was not some Cpl in a locker room shooting the bull who espoused the ambiotns of Leslie. But I agree he would should be in line for VCDS


----------



## George Wallace

geo said:
			
		

> heh... now everyone can speculate on the musical chairs that'll come
> VCDS
> Canada.com
> CEF.com
> SOF.com
> Army.ca
> Navy.ca
> Airforce.ca
> and whatever other organisation I might have missed.
> 
> Congrats to Gen Natynczyk on his new position
> 
> You've got one hell of a pair of boots to fill



I don't think you'll see many chnges to the Dot.coms.  It will be interesting to see who takes over as VCDS, and I speculate a prominant AF officer, who was in the running for CDS.  As for the Dot.ca's; that would be Vern, Ex Dragoon and CDN Aviator in that order.   ;D


----------



## Jammer

George,
He'll bring his own boots. You know as well as I do that they're cut from the same cloth though.


----------



## TCBF

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> .... both started out as VIII Hussars.



- As did a lot of other fine (and modest) soldiers!

 ;D


----------



## scoutfinch

This is true...


----------



## Harley Sailor

Congrats General Natynczyk.  But has he ever been to sea Billy.


----------



## Mike Baker

General Natynczyk, eh? 

Well I sure won't mind serving under him at all ;D

Congrats to the General
Baker


----------



## OldSolduer

Sounds like a winner to me!!
All the left wing types will be pouting....because of his experience in Iraq.


----------



## GAP

Harley Sailor said:
			
		

> Congrats General Natynczyk.  But has he ever been to sea Billy.



And probably has the yellow ducky to prove it!  ;D


----------



## rmacqueen

TCBF said:
			
		

> - As did a lot of other fine (and modest) soldiers!
> 
> ;D



I modestly agree ;D  

Good to hear, always thought he was a great guy and I am sure he will have no problem filling Gen Hillier's boots


----------



## geo

From a personal perspective, Gen Leslie is young enough that, even after 2.5 - 3 years,  he'd still be young enough to fill the CDS' boots.  Put him as VCDS in the interrim - so he does not appear to be "TOO" army to all the other colours.


----------



## Pikache

I guess the idea of the puzzle palace is that no Navy or Air Force brass can handle the Afghanistan mission?


----------



## Lance Wiebe

I'll add my congratulations to the list.

Gen Natynczyk will do an outstanding job.  Trust me.


----------



## grmpz1

im having a hard time pronouncing the general's name :-[ but congratulations to him


----------



## scoutfinch

Nat-tin-chuck


----------



## Franko

Smilin' Walt....that's two in a row.

Another good day to be a Dragoon.

Regards


----------



## slowmode

This man is a great man to serve our forces, I will be looking forward to his command.


----------



## Sig_Des

Harley Sailor said:
			
		

> But has he ever been to sea Billy.



Why is that important? Among other candidates, had Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt ever commanded a Brigade? Had Vice-Admiral Drew Robertson ever flown a jet?

PM selects the CDS, and as VCDS, Gen. Natynczyk is familliar with issues that affect ALL the elements.

On a personal note, I met the man in Afghanistan last year. Came up to the working Ptes and Cpls, and seemed genuinely interested in hearing what we had to say.


----------



## RCR Grunt

grmpz1 said:
			
		

> im having a hard time pronouncing the general's name :-[ but congratulations to him



I'm just going to call him Walt.


----------



## MCpl. Burwell

CTV.ca News Staff

Natynczyk, who currently serves as vice-chief of defence staff, will replace Hillier after he steps down on July 1.

"Lieutenant-General Walter J. Natynczyk brings strong leadership and unparalleled experience to his new position," Harper said in a statement Friday.

"His service record includes a broad range of achievement at home and abroad. The Canadian Forces are a vital institution making a tremendous contribution to our country. Walter Natynczyk is the ideal person to lead the Canadian Forces forward."

Defence Minister Peter MacKay and Natynczyk spoke to reporters in the House of Commons foyer following the announcement.

"We have great confidence, clearly, in his capability, in his approach to military and this is a very good-news story for Canada," said MacKay.

Noting some people may have difficulty with the general's name, the defence minister tried to help out.

"The thing we're all going to have to do is (learn) how to pronounce his name correctly. It's nuh-TIN-chuck," MacKay said.

He called Natynczyk -- a tank officer who also has a business degree -- a "gentleman's general." The description appears to have caught the soldier off guard.

"It is an interesting comment," Natynczyk said. "Some might know me as a rugby player and a football player."

Natynczyk, who is affectionately known among the troops as "Uncle Walt," told reporters he was honoured to be selected as the new CDS.

"I'm looking forward to providing the leadership to the men and women of the Canadian Forces, providing security for Canada, for Canadians, and... for all those families of our military men and women," he said.

In 2006, Natynczyk travelled with Harper to Afghanistan and they developed a close bond, CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife said Friday.

"People close to the prime minister have told me that the prime minister really, really respected him," said Fife.

Natynczyk, a native of Winnipeg, joined the Canadian Forces in August 1975. He became the vice-chief of defence staff in June 2006. Some career highlights:

He attended Royal Roads Military College and Collège Militaire Royal in St-Jean, Que., graduating with a Business Administration degree in 1979.
He has operational experience at various levels in Bosnia, Herzegovina, and with UNPROFOR HQ in Zagreb, Croatia.
His key command appointments include Commanding Officer of the Royal Canadian Dragoons; Deputy Commanding General, III Corps; Deputy Commanding General of the Multi-National Corps (Iraq); and command of Land Force Doctrine and Training System in Canada.
He was also Chief Transformation where he was responsible for implementation of the force restructuring and the enabling processes and policies. Natynczyk became the vice-chief of defence staff in June 2006.
He spent 15 months in Iraq as deputy commander of some U.S.-led forces. Natynczyk says the fight against insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan is almost identical, a point of view that has raised some concerns.

"He commanded 35,000 troops in Iraq. We don't want him to just simply transfer the U.S. approach in Iraq, my Gosh, to Canada's role in Afghanistan," said Steven Staples, the head of the Rideau Institute, an Ottawa-based think tank.

Natynczyk said there will be no significant strategy changes in Afghanistan.


Hillier's term as CDS

The Liberal government of then-prime minister Paul Martin appointed Hillier, born in Newfoundland in 1955, as chief of defence staff in January 2005.

A strategic thinker with field experience, he served as the senior NATO officer in Afghanistan before being named CDS. Hillier is revered by the troops, but has had some run-ins with the Tory government.

Hillier crossed swords with former defence minister Gordon O'Connor, who was eventually replaced by Peter MacKay in an August 2007 cabinet shuffle.

Last fall, Hillier appeared to contradict Harper. The general said Canadian troops could be in Afghanistan for 10 years -- after Harper said the mission could be accomplished by 2011.

Hillier then said he was on the "same sheet of paper" as the prime minister about the mission. But the controversies triggered rumours Hillier would be replaced. Hillier announced in April he would be stepping down on July 1.

In his statement Friday, Harper thanked Hillier for his leadership as CDS.

With a report by CTV's Ottawa Bureau Chief Robert Fife and files from The Canadian Press


----------



## X-mo-1979

I had the pleasure of meeting him with mym wife and son today.Very friendly man and wlaked with me and my family for a good block talking about my upcoming roto and how nice the new leopards were.He shook my hand and my wife's and thanked me for what I was doing and thanked my wife for the hard job of being a military wife.

Very personable guy.He's a shoe in.I don't think he will have any hard time filling the boot's of the last CDS.

On a side note it was a very hot day in Ottawa on the hill,all the parade of RCR and RCD (senior) looked great in scarlets.General Hillier told the Officers on parade to stand the boys at ease due to the heat..said something along the lines ofwe can still have all pomp and pagentry but let's use some common sense as well.Excellent guy leaving and a excellent guy coming in.

Bold and swift.


----------



## bartbandyrfc

He will be a great CDS.  Different from Gen Hillier, but great in his own right.  I am 100% behind him.


----------



## bolshoi

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Smilin' Walt....that's two in a row.
> 
> Another good day to be a Dragoon.
> 
> Regards




He was called "Odie" while he was the BC in D Sqn, 8CH. IIRC he picked up "Smilin' Walt" soon after. I wonder why he's never smiling in the pictures that I see in the paper. 

He was the best officer that I served with, bar none.


----------



## Good2Golf

The entire CF will benefit from Gen Natynczyk's leadership!  Excellent choice Mr. Harper!




			
				HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> I guess the idea of the puzzle palace is that no Navy or Air Force brass can handle the Afghanistan mission?



HF, don't forget that LGen Watt served as ISAF DComd(Air) in 2006 prior to his appointment as CAS.  He is very familiar with the AFG mission and the jointness that supports the mission on the ground.  

G2G


----------



## The Bread Guy

Let the speculation begin anew!





> The government is expected to launch a search for Canada’s next top soldier to replace Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Walter Natynczyk in the coming weeks.
> 
> Insiders have told Postmedia News that no official timeline has been given for making a decision and Gen. Natynczyk, who has held his post since July 2008, has not publicly declared he is stepping down.
> 
> There is also no set limit to the amount of time he can hold the position, as he serves at the prime minister’s pleasure.
> 
> But those spoken to believe a new chief of defence staff will be in place by the end of the summer, which would correspond with the historical trend of three- and four-year terms.
> 
> Whoever takes over is widely expected to be of a different breed from Gen. Natynczyk — and his predecessor, Gen. Rick Hillier.
> 
> When Gen. Natynczyk took over from Gen. Hillier during a high-profile change-of-command ceremony on July 2, 2008, Canadian troops were still embroiled in heavy fighting with insurgents in Kandahar.
> 
> At the same time, the federal government was still boasting surpluses and had recently unveiled a plan to provide billions of dollars for the military over the next 20 years to grow its size and capabilities.
> 
> (....)
> 
> it’s widely expected the next chief of defence staff will be from the navy or air force and will have a lower profile than generals Hillier and Natynczyk, quietly implementing the spending cuts while seeing the major procurement projects through to fruition.
> 
> But Douglas Bland, a defence expert at Queen’s University in Kingston, Ont. who authored a book on chiefs of defence, said whoever succeeds Gen. Natynczyk will also have to vie for the government’s attention during a time of fiscal constraint while reassuring the troops that another “decade of darkness” isn’t looming.
> 
> (....)
> 
> Contrary to popular belief, Mr. Bland said, there is no rule that the position rotate among the air force, army and navy. Similarly, there is no set process for selecting a chief of defence staff.
> 
> “It is very much, absolutely in the hands of the prime minister,” he said.
> 
> In some instances, as with Gen. Natynczyk, a committee made up of senior officials, the minister of defence and representatives from the Prime Minister’s Office will screen candidates and offer their advice.
> 
> Paul Martin, in contrast, took an active role in deciding to appoint Gen. Hillier.


Postmedia News, 10 May 12


----------



## OldSolduer

This will be an interesting thread for the next few weeks. Let the speculation begin....


----------



## fraserdw

Navy, if it is a political decision....

Air Force is embarassing because of F35

Army means re-enforcing the support for Afghanistan and the political front wants that issue to go away quietly.


----------



## PuckChaser

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Navy, if it is a political decision....



Really? Because I'm sure it looks good that they've sunk billions into subs that are just going to get going sometime in the next few years. 

There's no easy answer like you imply.


----------



## Jimmy_D

If they are looking at it for Political issues, then it seems as they will pick another Army CDS, for as everything is finally winding down, the Canadian Army seems to be less of a political burden. Unless something flares up else wheres in the world, that needs our attention.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Really? Because I'm sure it looks good that they've sunk billions into subs that are just going to get going sometime in the next few years.
> 
> There's no easy answer like you imply.



5 years?? That must be in dog years. VIC is doing sea trials, WDR is commencing sea trials and CHI should be in the water this fall.


----------



## jeffb

I think the CF should launch a "So you want to be the CDS" reality show where all the top officers move onto an island and compete in challenges that have nothing to do with being CDS. Every week, one officer is voted off by an audience poll. At the end, all the voted off officers get together and select the winner out of the last two standing. 

At least it would be entertaining.


----------



## OldSolduer

jeffb said:
			
		

> I think the CF should launch a "So you want to be the CDS" reality show where all the top officers move onto an island and compete in challenges that have nothing to do with being CDS. Every week, one officer is voted off by an audience poll. At the end, all the voted off officers get together and select the winner out of the last two standing.
> 
> At least it would be entertaining.



One question: May I host?


----------



## jollyjacktar

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> One question: May I host?


You'd look great with a grass skirt and a spear in your hand.   >


----------



## Danjanou

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> You'd look great with a grass skirt and a spear in your hand.   >



You've been at sea too long 8)


----------



## jollyjacktar

Danjanou said:
			
		

> You've been at sea too long 8)


 ;D


----------



## dapaterson

jeffb said:
			
		

> I think the CF should launch a "So you want to be the CDS" reality show where all the top officers move onto an island and compete in challenges that have nothing to do with being CDS. Every week, one officer is voted off by an audience poll. At the end, all the voted off officers get together and select the winner out of the last two standing.
> 
> At least it would be entertaining.



Or "CDS Idol".  Or maybe even "So You Think You Can Dance - CDS edition".


----------



## jollyjacktar

"CDS's Got Talent" or being punny why not call it "The Gong Show".


----------



## PMedMoe

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> "CDS's Got Talent" or being punny why not call it "The Gong Show".



CDS's got Gongs?   ;D


----------



## jollyjacktar

Rack like a deer.   ;D


----------



## wrench wench

jeffb said:
			
		

> I think the CF should launch a "So you want to be the CDS" reality show where all the top officers move onto an island and compete in challenges that have nothing to do with being CDS. Every week, one officer is voted off by an audience poll. At the end, all the voted off officers get together and select the winner out of the last two standing.
> 
> At least it would be entertaining.



I would watch this. Already sounds hella better than most reality tv nowadays.


----------



## daftandbarmy

jeffb said:
			
		

> I think the CF should launch a "So you want to be the CDS" reality show where all the top officers move onto an island and compete in challenges that have nothing to do with being CDS. Every week, one officer is voted off by an audience poll. At the end, all the voted off officers get together and select the winner out of the last two standing.
> 
> At least it would be entertaining.



Hey, don't go giving away our Strategic HR Consulting secrets or we'll nail you for copyright infringement! ;D


----------



## OldSolduer

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> You'd look great with a grass skirt and a spear in your hand.   >



I think the contest should take place in the Arctic.  >

First task, erect a 10 man tent.

Can you imagine?


----------



## armyvern

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Can you imagine?



What I can imagine is some Candidates vs Polar Bear Pugil_ing_. I'd pay to watch that!!  >


----------



## wildman0101

ME-ME-Me. DooHH. I know ,,,wishful thinking. Cheer's all. Scoty B


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Wow, did this topic ever degenerate!
For the sailors out there (and back on topic), is VAdm Maddison a perspective candidate? I am not bragging but I have had the privilege to meet the man on several occasions during my tenure here at the Halfway House  , I mean in the NCR and though he is a great guy looking out for the troops, I am uncertain wrt his intestinal fortitude required to deal with the press, the politicians and...well, all of us.
Thoughts from others?


----------



## jollyjacktar

I have met the boss as well.  I cannot say on his fortitude etc, but on a personal note he was very good to my family when I was deployed on Roto 9.  Something which I had the opportunity to thank him for at the Naval Centennial BBQ at the Drill Shed.  He does seem to honestly give a crap about his troops, and that should count for something.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

jolleyjacktar, I am not questioning the man's integrity nor passion for his job and his people but he is not the most aggressive orator either and I think that may well be a key trait to this posit. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a sailor as CDS but if there is a more suitable individual out there, I don`t want to see a sailor for the sake of seeing a sailor.
Now that I have said that, I say we nominate Spike Bullen!?


----------



## jollyjacktar

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> jolleyjacktar, I am not questioning the man's integrity nor passion for his job and his people but he is not the most aggressive orator either and I think that may well be a key trait to this posit. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a sailor as CDS but if there is a more suitable individual out there, I don`t want to see a sailor for the sake of seeing a sailor.
> Now that I have said that, I say we nominate Spike Bullen!?



Yeah, a Chief (Army, Navy or AF) would be an aggressive speaker with minimal BS.  The Boss, is not an in your face, charge up that hill sort.  Really though, since Nelson has there been a hell bent for leather one out there?  I think you'd get more straight talk from a Army chap, and my vote is Maj. Gen Vance.  I had a few interactions with him in KAF and I quite like the cut of his jib.


----------



## dapaterson

Over the next several years the CF will be readjusting to a reduced operational tempo.  In that situation, VAdm Maddison's leadership style would be fully appropriate.  Interpersonal skills are important as well, not just looking inside the CF, but also in working with other parts of the Federal government; a too loud, too brash CDS may burn some bridges with other parts of government.

Don't underestimate the importance of those sorts of soft skills in senior leaders.  I'll add that I've seen some ships with a Captain who is good at the soft skills, and an XO who was loud, hated, and respected; no reason the CDS/VCDS combo can't be the same.


----------



## Monsoon

I'm not sure why the VCDS, VAdm Donaldson, has been overlooked in the public discussion as a potential sailor candidate (though I guessing because the journalists covering the CF are only dimly aware that the position exists). The only thing atypical about his career trajectory is that he has never been an ECS, but if anything that may lend a perception that he'd be service-neutral in his approach.

In terms of "right place, right time" he's definitely the guy: VAdm Maddison is just wrapping his first year as Comd RCN and to appoint another straightaway would cause a lot of institutional churn (we've just come through rather a lot with McFadden's premature departure as it is) and exactly the same is true for the other two ECSes and Comd CEFCOM (who I presume will be succeeding into a DCDS-esque role at the new CANOPSCOM). Meanwhile, Donaldson is completing his second year as VCDS, making him basically the only three-leaf on the Armed Forces Council with more than a year in his job. He's where my money is. Anyone have anything to say about him? I've never had the pleasure.

If I were to guess some more, I'd say McFadden had been spotted for the job before he left after two years as Comd RCN.

Edit to add: Also, I can't see the other services being happy with having CDS, VCDS, Comd RCN, CMP, CRC and CF Chief all being RCN - that's more than half of the AFC!

Edit to add again: And VAdm Donaldson was Comd CANADA COM at a time of two major domestic operations (G8 and Olympics) under a government who's military planning guidance is called the "Canada First Defence Strategy".


----------



## jollyjacktar

I like the Boss as well.  Yes, he does have a softer management style and I like that he gives a honest damn about his people and their families.  That counts for a great deal in my books too.  Softer, I like the boss.  More omph, I like Vance.  

Can't speak of any Zoomies out there as I don't know any and the last one I remember well was Boyle.  They have not as a rule impressed me much.

Whomever gets the nod will have big shoes to fill with the past two in Rick and Walt.   :2c:


----------



## OldSolduer

OK, next event!

Hog tie a polar bear with a rope using the clove hitch. :blotto:


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> OK, next event!
> 
> Hog tie a polar bear with a rope using the clove hitch. :blotto:



You're good!


----------



## OldSolduer

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> You're good!



Thank you. If you don't know knots very well, tie lots. The clove hitch is a good one.

OK, CDS wannabes.....

sword  drill in mukluks and arctic slippers. :blotto:


I mean Arctic mitts, no arctic slippers

The slippers are for seal chasing


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Thank you. If you don't know knots very well, tie lots. The clove hitch is a good one.
> 
> OK, CDS wannabes.....
> 
> sword  drill in mukluks and arctic slippers. :blotto:


As a stoker: "If you can't tie knots, tie lots." You should see me trying to untie my f***ing shorts at the end of the day!


----------



## tomahawk6

Maybe the next CDS will be Air Force.


----------



## Good2Golf

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Maybe the next CDS will be Air Force.



DCinC NORAD is likely the only RCAF contender.


----------



## PuckChaser

After hearing MGen Day speak the other day, he`s got my vote on CDS Idol. Very to the point and gave me some confidence in the leadership here.


----------



## Good2Golf

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> After hearing MGen Day speak the other day, he`s got my vote on CDS Idol. Very to the point and gave me some confidence in the leadership here.



+1

If there were ever a case to be made for a 2-leaf to jump to 4, he's it!


Regards
G2G


----------



## OldSolduer

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> +1
> 
> If there were ever a case to be made for a 2-leaf to jump to 4, he's it!
> 
> 
> Regards
> G2G




He was my OC in 2VP for a bit. Full of common sense, so how did he make it this far?


----------



## TN2IC

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Maybe the next CDS will be Air Force.



Witchcraft!


----------



## daftandbarmy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Maybe the next CDS will be Air Force.



I think you may have nailed it, largely as a result of this successful operation:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/video-rcaf-planes-fly-over-ottawa-to-commemorate-canadas-role-in-libya/article2247447/


----------



## vonGarvin

Here's the next CDS:


----------



## observor 69

But he's been so quiet lately !


----------



## GK .Dundas

Given the fact Canadian  Government tends to like peace and quiet .And they did set a precedent with appointing an outsider to head  the RCMP.it just possible I may a have found a candidate that I' sure would meet with their approval .
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106010.0/topicseen.html


----------



## OldSolduer

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> Given the fact Canadian  Government tends to like peace and quiet .And they did set a precedent with appointing an outsider to head  the RCMP.it just possible I may a have found a candidate that I' sure would meet with their approval .
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/106010.0/topicseen.html




Cheeky bugger you are!


----------



## GAP

Hunt nears for country’s next top soldier
STEVEN CHASE OTTAWA— From Saturday's Globe and Mail Saturday, Jun. 02, 2012
Article Link

A selection committee is two weeks away from drawing up a short list of candidates to serve as Canada’s next top soldier and Department of National Defence insiders say there are three apparent front-runners: the current second-in command, the head of the navy and the top Canadian at NORAD.

General Walter Natynczyk, the Chief of the Defence Staff since July, 2008, is slated to step down as early as mid-summer – and a selection panel of senior government officials is expected to suggest several candidates by mid-June.

This changing of the guard comes at a critical time for the Canadian Forces, which are grappling with budget cuts, big purchase plans for new planes and ships, and the task of readjusting to life now that the high-profile combat mission in Afghanistan is fading in the rearview mirror.

“The Afghan mission gave the military a sense of focus and cohesion. Now it’s like after the Stanley Cup run’s over. It’s hard to keep a team motivated and on track,” one source said.

It’s up to Stephen Harper to pick the next Chief of the Defence Staff and the Prime Minister’s choice will send a clear signal as to the kind of role Ottawa’s political masters want the military to play in the years ahead.

While the Tories lack enthusiasm for peacekeeping assignments that leave troops mired in lengthy conflicts, they’re looking for smart solutions to the defence of Canada’s Arctic territory and borders, and they are open to limited overseas military interventions such as the Libya mission, provided their U.S. and U.K. allies are leading the way.

National Defence sources suggest key contenders to replace Gen. Natynczyk include: Vice-Admiral Bruce Donaldson, the current vice chief of the Defence Staff; Vice-Admiral Paul Maddison, commander of the Royal Canadian Navy; and Lieutenant-General Thomas Lawson, deputy commander of North American Aerospace Defense Command.

Sources caution there’s no decision yet and that the selection committee has not indicated whom it considers top picks.
More on link


----------



## jollyjacktar

At the Admiral's town hall meeting a couple of weeks ago it was mentioned that "they" believe this century is going to be a "Maritime" one for Canada.  Trade is going to be by sea lanes and Canada will be wanting to project the interests of the GoC globally by means of sea power, and thus the move on albeit snail like to increase the needs and capabilities of the RCN.  So, if this is perhaps the direction that the GoC want the CF to shamble towards, then it might be a Sailor who gets the nod.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Much like Brazil, the future always belongs to the Navy....


----------



## Cloud Cover

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Thank you. If you don't know knots very well, tie lots. The clove hitch is a good one.



phhhtttttt.... sounds like 50 shades of Khaki.


----------



## Pusser

GAP said:
			
		

> This changing of the guard comes at a critical time for the Canadian Forces, which are *grappling with budget cuts, big purchase plans for new planes and ships*, and the task of readjusting to life now that the high-profile combat mission in Afghanistan is fading in the rearview mirror.
> 
> More on link



My bet is on VAdm Donaldson.  The bolded areas above are among his fortes (i.e. insistence on doing things properly and transparently).  Remember, he was the one who ordered the crackdown on benefits run rampant (NB: please note that he did not order them cancelled and forgotten, but rather insisted that the proper processes be completed in order to implement them legally vice the previous practice of "implement now and we'll sort out the legalities later" - which still hadn't happened several years after the fact).

I suspect that they'll want VAdm Maddison to remain at the helm of the Navy for awhile longer in order to oversee the transformation which is just beginning.


----------



## Good2Golf

I wouldn't take that bet...how much are you betting?  Can we divide up your money now?  

Maddison if the Gov't wants quiet, sea-state 1 operation, or Day if it wants to reinforce a bit of 'larger-than-life' character that still balances accountability and stewardship of resources. 


Regards
G2G


----------



## The Bread Guy

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> *Maddison* if the Gov't wants quiet, sea-state 1 operation, or *Day* if it wants to reinforce a bit of 'larger-than-life' character that still balances accountability and stewardship of resources.


My loonie, given my WAG that PM&Co. may want an even lower key CDS than the current incumbent, would be the former.


----------



## tumbling_dice

I would put safe money on VAdm Donaldson considering the other two "front runners" have only been in their new posts for a year.  I think the next go around will be incredibly interesting (LGen Beare, LGen Lawson, MGen Day, and MGen Vance among others all being very strong candidates).


----------



## armyvern

I'll put a beer and a couple of pickles on it that we see VAdm Maddison appointed. Just a couple of pickles though ... I can't go bankrupt.  ;D


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I'll take the job for pickles.....


----------



## Pieman

Appointment is decided by the Prime Minister, am I right?

I suspect MGen Vance.  Been a lot of direct interaction between him and Harper and they get along well from what I understand.


----------



## PuckChaser

Pieman said:
			
		

> Appointment is decided by the Prime Minister, am I right?



He picks from the shortlist using the MND as an advisor.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The _Globe & Mail's_ take:





> With Canada’s grinding, decade-long ground commitment in Afghanistan at an end, there is a sea change needed with respect to Canada’s Armed Forces. Quite literally. Prime Minister Stephen Harper hinted at it eloquently in a recent speech in Ottawa, declaring that “Canada is a maritime nation, a maritime nation with trade, commerce and interests around the world...Canada and its economy float on salt water.”  “Such a nation,” Mr. Harper said, “must have a navy.” .... The case for such an investment in the RCN is compelling. A large share of Canada’s GNP relies on its capacity to trade by sea. Climate change is testing Canada’s will and capacity to defend its vast Arctic waters. And Canadian warships are regularly being called on to do everything from fighting piracy and terrorism, to interdicting drug and human traffickers, delivering humanitarian relief, and even engaging in the protection of foreign nationals as was the case with the navy’s support of NATO’s engagement against the regime of former Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi .... given the defence challenges and its own priorities, it needs to appoint a naval officer as the next Chief of Defence Staff, following the expected departure later this year of General Walter Natynczyk. The last an admiral was in that role was 1997. It’s time again.


----------



## Pusser

What that article fails to mention is that last admiral was widely speculated (amongst sailors) to have been unceremoniously turfed by a new government (Chretien's) over his support for the EH101 project to replace the Sea Kings.


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Retired three-star army general Andrew Leslie has been interviewed as a possible successor to Gen. Walt Natynczyk as chief of defence staff, Postmedia News has learned.
> 
> According to several recent accounts from those who work closely with Natynczyk, the former tank commander is still heavily involved in the military’s day to day operations. However, the top brass believes it is only a matter of weeks, if not days, before Natynczyk steps aside.
> 
> Leslie, an artillery officer, was the author of a report the military commissioned two years ago that provided a broad blueprint for steep staff cuts to military personnel and civilians at national defence headquarters. As part of a major structural rethink, it also called for shrinking the number of civilian contractors at the Department of National Defence.
> 
> Leslie’s recommendations have not been an easy sell within the military. But given budget constraints that have not been helped by the global economic crisis, they were precisely what Prime Minister Stephen Harper wanted to hear and their influence could be seen in the federal austerity budget introduced in the spring.
> 
> I first floated the possibility of Leslie as a possible CDS in a column several months ago. Then as now, Leslie’s biggest handicap is that if he is chosen to succeed two other army officers, Natynczyk and Rick Hillier, it would interrupt the traditional practise of rotating the top job among the army, air force and navy ....


Postmedia News, 13 Aug 12


----------



## Haggis

> Retired three-star army general Andrew Leslie has been interviewed as a possible successor to Gen. Walt Natynczyk as chief of defence staff, Postmedia News has learned.



Seriously?


----------



## jollyjacktar

Agreed.  I don't like him and would not be pleased to see him do a Prince John and come back from retirement.


----------



## George Wallace

We have had long discussions on his character, personality, political background, family tree, Army centric bias, etc. in topics on this site.  To reserect him with all these traits from amongst the RETIRED Service Members to become CDS makes no sense.  About as much sense as bringing back Gen Hillier to become CDS again.  Not like that hasn't been done before.


----------



## Journeyman

> LONDON – Retired three-star army general Andrew Leslie has been interviewed as a possible successor to Gen. Walt Natynczyk as chief of defence staff, Postmedia News has learned.
> -----------
> What is known is that the government was not satisfied with the original list of flag officers proposed by DND, and directed that the list of prospective candidates be expanded. There have been heavy-duty rumours that Leslie has been interviewed for the position. But so have several serving officers.


Even the author of the article doesn't know if he's writing from fact from rumour; you'll forgive me if I don't get too excited just yet.


Although if he _does_ become the next CDS, it will be Night of the Long Knives!


----------



## Rifleman62

Re-enrolled into the Reg F or P Res?

It is easier to slash and hack the P Res as a Reservist.


----------



## Kirkhill

Is it permissible to suggest that if the government wanted to create a small force that could be employed as a tool to support domestic and foreign policy they might do worse than to allow the RCN a shot at the top job and the RCAF as Deputy?

The Army has had a long run but it still hasn't convinced the RCN to spend some of their money on hulls that will get the Army where the government needs or wants them to be.  BHS still wants an H.  Currently it is only BS.  Perhaps with the RCN driving the boat for a change they could be convinced to see the merits of Jackie Fisher's dictum (IIRC) to the effect that the Army is just another weapon to be launched by the Navy.  The Marines being the Navy's Army SMEs.

Equally, it might make sense to let the RCAF have a crack at determining how to launch and support light troops, and even militiamen, domestically.  

If the RCN and RCAF are put in the top chairs might they not suddenly find the Army to be a useful tool rather than merely a rival for funding?

Long ago and far away in a snowy field in Gagetown I discovered something fascinating about people.
It was a basic daylight navigation exercise: five man syndicate; point-to-point navigation; snowshoes; radio - a chance to practice navigation and voice procedures.  The drill was you got the radio, called in a locstate, navigated to the next point and handed the radio over to the last man in the file who repeated the procedure.  Regularly the last man in the file was lagging behind, whining about the pace, offering free advice and generally just making life difficult.  Strange thing:  when this sluggard was actually handed the radio, AN-PRC 77 weighing 13.5 lbs, far for slowing him down further, due to the extra weight, it appeared to act like Red Bull to a raver and give him wings.  He was positively running through 10 foot drifts and oblivious to the screams of the dead and dying struggling to follow in his wake.

Just a thought


----------



## Haggis

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Re-enrolled into the Reg F or P Res?



It's a full-time job, which would require him to be on Class B or C.  If he opts to continue receiving his pension, the most he could serve is one year as CDS.   However, the precedent that would be set by having a P Res CDS would be _awesome_, opening up a whole raft of succession possibilities for P Res GO/FOs who now face a 2* ceiling.



			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> It is easier to slash and hack the P Res as a Reservist.



No, it's easier to do when you are outside the P Res and not subject to the politics of within.  You also have a perceived air of impartiality by not being part if the system you are slashing and cutting.


----------



## Rifleman62

> It is easier to slash and hack the P Res as a Reservist.



My comment was meant to mean hack and slash is coming, not who was going to do it!


----------



## Teeps74

This reservist felt a tremor in the force... And no sir, I do not like it.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> This reservist felt a tremor in the force... And no sir, I do not like it.



Don't forget your kind never felt order 66 coming


----------



## Snakedoc

I'm sure there is another thread out there on this (and I think I posted on it before) but I can't seem to find it in my search.  Mods, feel free to move this article to a more appropriate thread if I missed it.  

Some interesting speculation on the search for the next CDS.


Battle brewing for top job of Canadian Forces

The Canadian Press 
Published Tuesday, Aug. 14, 2012 4:10PM EDT 

OTTAWA - A behind-the-scenes battle over who will succeed the country's defence chief has spilled out in public and exposed the bitter, often conflicting visions of where the Canadian military is headed following the Afghan war.

Rumours have been rampant that the Harper government is willing to go outside the ranks of Canadian Forces brass in order to recall a trusted, retired officer to fill the shoes of Gen. Walter Natynczyk, whose departure is expected within weeks.

One name in particular has been that of former lieutenant-general Andrew Leslie, who headed the Canadian army until 2010 and penned a milestone report that recommended a radical overhaul of the military command structure.
An online media report claiming Leslie had been been interviewed for the job was roundly denied today by several well-placed sources. Leslie, now a senior executive at the CGI Group, would not comment.

The other name churning through the rumour mill is retired air force lieutenant-general Angus Watt, who now heads the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority.

Douglas Bland, chair of defence management studies at Queens University, says the prime minister is intent on reforming National Defence, and the rumours suggest there's resistance to the changes on the way.


Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/battle-brewing-for-top-job-of-canadian-forces-1.914045#ixzz23YeY9pHq


----------



## Gunner98

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Re-enrolled into the Reg F or P Res?
> 
> It is easier to slash and hack the P Res as a Reservist.



Gen De Chastelain was a re-enrolled as CIC officer when he was CDS the second time.


----------



## Northalbertan

That is correct.  Gen De Chastelaine was over 60 yrs old.  The only way they could bring him back was as a CIC officer, CIC officers being allowed to serve until 65 years of age.

Northalbertan


----------



## OldSolduer

Haggis said:
			
		

> Seriously?



I almost puked when I read that he may re appear.


----------



## George Wallace

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> ................Rumours have been rampant that the Harper government is willing to go outside the ranks of Canadian Forces brass in order to recall a trusted, retired officer to fill the shoes of Gen. Walter Natynczyk,





I think "trusted" is the word open to quite a bit of debate here.  Trusted by whom?


----------



## The Bread Guy

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I think "trusted" is the word open to quite a bit of debate here.  Trusted by whom?


By whoever hires him, I suppose ....



			
				Northalbertan said:
			
		

> .... Gen De Chastelaine was over 60 yrs old.  The only way they could bring him back was as a CIC officer, CIC officers being allowed to serve until 65 years of age ....


And I'm _sure_ he was limited to the same 30-35 man-days per year that every OTHER CIC officer got, right?

The latest tea leaf reading, from Murray Brewster of CP via Twitter:





> Andrew Leslie has NOT been interviewed to be CDS.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Northalbertan said:
			
		

> That is correct.  Gen De Chastelaine was over 60 yrs old.  The only way they could bring him back was as a CIC officer, CIC officers being allowed to serve until 65 years of age.
> 
> Northalbertan



This strikes me as dishonest and circumventing the rules.


----------



## OldSolduer

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> This strikes me as dishonest and circumventing the rules.



They can make their own rules as they see fit.


----------



## dapaterson

Do Mr Fisher or Mr Brewer ever define what each means by "interviewed"?

They can both be correct - an indirect approach and discussion about potential availability might be seen by one as an interview, while the other would defines an interview as a formal sit-down meeting.

There are always games within games at times like this... who are Mr Fisher's and Mr Brewster's friends?  Who is feeding them information?  What effects are those who are feeding information trying to achieve?


Always fun to try and interpret the tea leaves...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> They can make their own rules as they see fit.


:goodpost:



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> *Do Mr Fisher or Mr Brewer ever define what each means by "interviewed"?
> 
> They can both be correct - an indirect approach and discussion about potential availability might be seen by one as an interview, while the other would defines an interview as a formal sit-down meeting.*
> 
> There are always games within games at times like this... who are Mr Fisher's and Mr Brewster's friends?  Who is feeding them information?  What effects are those who are feeding information trying to achieve?
> 
> 
> Always fun to try and interpret the tea leaves...


Also :goodpost:


----------



## armyvern

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I almost puked when I read that he may re appear.



Can we put a poll in this thread!!??


----------



## Edward Campbell

I don't know who the next CDS will be and, in most important, long term, military senses it may not matter all that much. The few rumours that filter down, way down, to my level suggest that no one wants the job.

The big, tough decisions (about policy, about equipment (ships and airplanes and weapons systems) for the next few years are in the province of a few civil servants, and even they may find their authority challenged by _outsiders_, contracted accounting/management consulting firms in them 'employ' of the Clerk of the Privy Council.

The role of the CDS is to _operate_ the forces in being - if the government sends them to war he leads them; if the government says "stay home and stay quiet" he gets on with that task. 

Selecting the CDS is not a popularity contest and, quite frankly, I hope that the powers that be (the PM and the Clerk, mainly) don't even consider, not for a microsecond, the views of the rank and file or of the NCO and officers corps; if they don't like the guy chosen they can all quit, with country's gratitude.

Right now, in my opinion the CF needs a manager; one who can oversee the cuts that will come so that they are made from the (considerable) C2 _superstructure_, protecting the fleets (naval and air), the field forces and the training system so that, we can rebuild (again, as we did over and over in the past) when resources permit.


----------



## Haggis

Northalbertan said:
			
		

> That is correct.  Gen De Chastelaine was over 60 yrs old.  The only way they could bring him back was as a CIC officer, CIC officers being allowed to serve until 65 years of age.



They could've brought him back as a Ranger.  Ranger CRA is the same as their date of death.  :blotto:


----------



## DonaldMcL

Adding to the rumour mill... I know of a fighter pilot that's been interviewed twice now  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

MORE tea leaves to read, courtesy of CBC.ca:





> The search for a new head of the Canadian Forces has slipped more than a month behind schedule.
> 
> CBC News has learned Gen. Walt Natynczyk, Canada's outgoing chief of defence staff, has already held his own going away party — a cottage barbecue attended by close staff held in June.
> 
> Sources tell CBC News the military was planning for a late July change of command ceremony to herald the appointment of a new chief.
> 
> But, now it seems there will likely be no decision until at least the beginning of September. And even that date might be optimistic.
> 
> Natynczyk is said to have extracted from the Conservative government the promise of a month's warning before the top general will be formally ushered out the door, and no such warning has yet been issued.
> 
> It's not clear what is causing the delay. But CBC News has learned the process to select a new chief of the defence staff has become more formal than ever before, with a selection committee interviewing a large number of contenders for the job.
> 
> This is the second time such a process has been used.
> 
> The selection panel that chose Natynczyk was made up of Defence Minister Peter MacKay, his deputy, and a group of senior bureaucrats including the clerk of the privy council, according to a source familiar with the process.
> 
> That panel invited several candidates for interviews, and made at least one recommendation to the prime minister ....


----------



## Jarnhamar

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> They can make their own rules as they see fit.




notsureifsrs


----------



## Journeyman

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> notsureifsrs


Gesundheit.

Ohhhh......nintendo-speak for "not sure if you're serious." You kids are just so darn cute the way you fuck with the English language.


----------



## George Wallace

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> MORE tea leaves to read, courtesy of CBC.ca:



So?  By this logic, anyone who gave a BBQ invite, or Beer Call invite, to their subordinates during the summer has announced their departure?  Must be a extremely large number of people jumping ship this coming few weeks/months/whatever.


----------



## cudmore

Dear George,

I am afraid, in this instance, you're a little too quick to criticize (and I'm not sure why).
I wrote that Natynczyk has already held his own going away party.  It was a BBQ.  
I said it in a straight up fashion.   
There were no lines to read between. There was no extrapolation going on. 
Nantyczyk has already held his own going away party.  
It was a cottage BBQ attended by close staff.
It was held in June.
I did not write, as you suggest, that Natynczyk held a summer BBQ, therefore it must have been a going away party.  

Look at the words: 
"CBC News has learned Gen. Walt Natynczyk, Canada's outgoing chief of defence staff, has already held his own going away party — a cottage barbecue attended by close staff held in June."

Best,
James


----------



## Edward Campbell

> It's not clear what is causing the delay. But CBC News has learned the process to select a new chief of the defence staff has become more formal than ever before, with a selection committee interviewing a large number of contenders for the job.
> 
> This is the second time such a process has been used.
> 
> The selection panel that chose Natynczyk was made up of Defence Minister Peter MacKay, his deputy, and a group of senior bureaucrats including the clerk of the privy council, according to a source familiar with the process.
> 
> That panel invited several candidates for interviews, and made at least one recommendation to the prime minister ....




This indicates a subtle shift in direction by Prime Minister Harper: allowing panels of senior bureaucrats or _outsiders_ (contractors) is seen as a good way to _depoliticize_ an issue (big ones like the shipbuilding contracts or the F-35 debacle and small, but still newsworthy ones like picking the next CDS). I expect to see more and more of it if, and it's still a big IF, they are able to find a good outside contractor to rescue the F-35 contracting process.


----------



## jollyjacktar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Selecting the CDS is not a popularity contest and, quite frankly, I hope that the powers that be (the PM and the Clerk, mainly) don't even consider, not for a microsecond, the views of the rank and file or of the NCO and officers corps; if they don't like the guy chosen they can all quit, with country's gratitude.
> 
> You have to be careful.  If too many of the rank and file don't like/cannot work with the new guy and quit, that'll be counter productive to the CF too.  While I'd maybe not go out the door straight away my 10/30 will be cocked and locked within the next couple of months.  There are many others out there nowadays too.  It's no good having someone that the great unwashed don't want to follow in the catbird's seat.
> 
> Right now, in my opinion the CF needs a manager; one who can oversee the cuts that will come so that they are made from the (considerable) C2 _superstructure_, protecting the fleets (naval and air), the field forces and the training system so that, we can rebuild (again, as we did over and over in the past) when resources permit.
> 
> He, whom many of us here don't care for.  Is not IMHO, friendly towards the Blue kids.  I would not trust him to protect the Fleet(s) in any way.  I cannot comment on the green kids and how safe they'd feel with him at the helm. But the thought seems to make the stomach lurch with many of us here.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Given that "The Press" is speculating and running on all cylinders attempting to keep this front and centre and attempting to politicize it, I feel justified in doing the same.

I _could_ comfortably conject that this whole thing is a tempest created by 'The Press' trying to manufacture a teapot to put it in. Nothing has been proven as far as Gen Leslie being interviewed. However, that hasn't stop our 'journalists' from spinning every small conjecture they can come up with.

It would not be the first time that certain information agencies have tried to drive the national agenda to secure favour from a certain party or embarrass the sitting government by intimating, subtly hinting or manufacturing information suitable to their cause.

The adage of 'lips moving and lying' is no longer the pervue that has been attributed certain professional and political subjects.

Unless they are a local 6'oclock news agency that is providing reasonably up to date facts, without commentary or slant, I have no faith in what passes today as journalism, to intelligently inform me of national, or international, matters. Especially when it comes to politics.

Caveat emptor applies equally to todays journalism as it does to the sale of real property.

 :2c:


----------



## Journeyman

recceguy said:
			
		

> Caveat emptor applies equally to todays journalism as it does to the sale of real property.



Based on the most recent Reader's Digest survey of MOST trusted professions, journalists _once again_ failed to make the list.

1. Firefighters (88)
2. Emergency medical technicians (85)
3. Pharmacists (83)
4. Nurses (82)
5. Doctors (81)
6. Airline pilots (79)
7. Dentists (71)
8. Teachers (68)
9. Armed forces members (66)
10. Veterinarians (66)

However, according to a survey on a job/career website of the 10 LEAST trusted, what do we see right up near the top of the most untrustworthy?

10. Police Officer
*9. Journalist*
8. Celebrities
7. Handymen (with sticky fingers)
6. Agent/Manager
5. Telemarketers
4. Lawyer
3. Mechanic
2. Politician
1. Used car salesman


----------



## Jimmy_D

I believe that on your Least trusted list, that #3 and #1 tend to bank on each others buck.


----------



## Journeyman

Well, for clarity, it's not actually my list; I merely cited it. 


Writing it would make me.........a journalist.


----------



## Old Sweat

And Peter Worthington adds his opinion in a piece from the Sun newspapers reproduced under the Fair Dealing provision of the Copyright Act.


Military man: Leslie a good — and logical — choice for next defence chief 

By Peter Worthington,QMI Agency
First posted: Sunday, August 19, 2012 08:00 PM EDT 

The scramble is on in the military for the next chief of defence staff — the highest rank in our military and the one who commands, controls, administers the Canadian Forces, and implements the government’s defence policies.

Gen. Walt Natynczyk has held the post since mid-2008, succeeding Gen. Rick Hillier who, arguably, was our most colourful, outspoken and dynamic CDS. In the public’s mind, Hillier personified our military’s achievements in Afghanistan.

A former deputy commander of the U.S. Army’s III Corps in Iraq, under Natynczyk as CDS Canada’s role in Afghanistan was ratcheted down, the DND budget was trimmed, DND staff due to be culled, future missions restricted. This wasn’t Natynczyk’s doing — it’s government policy for him to administer.

Three years is about the average term for a CDS — a role instigated in 1964 to speak for and co-ordinate the commanders of the navy, army and air force.

And speculation is rife among the three services as to who is most likely to be the next CDS.

A couple of admirals, several army generals and an air force general are mentioned as possible candidates, but in these harsh economic times of cutbacks and the need for updated equipment, it seems the one most qualified to be CDS may be Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie, former chief of land staff, who was subsequently chief of transformation of the Canadian Forces.

Leslie retired last fall but, like Gen. John de Chastelain before him, could be seconded out of retirement to be CDS. Leslie’s report — recommending changes and efficiencies in the Forces without affecting performance — worried the military but was popular with the PM, who is economizing every way he can.

Although there would be miffed feelings — even resentment — among contenders for the CDS job, it’s pretty hard to argue against Leslie’s credentials.

He was bypassed for CDS when Hillier and Natynczyk got the job, but he’s served as a commander in Afghanistan, as well as in the Balkans, and on paper seems a natural.

Critics point out that the CDS job traditionally is rotated through the three services, but that’s not quite true. Both Hillier and Natynczyk were army — both Armoured Corps. Leslie is a gunner — former CO of the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery.

Canada’s penchant for rotating command for political purposes resulted in disaster when instead of appointing the most qualified officer to command the Airborne Regiment when it went on a UN Chapter Seven (fighting) mission to Somalia, political considerations demanded that an inexperienced colonel from the Van Doos get the job.

A Princess Pats commander was the logical choice, but it was the Van Doos’ turn. The outcome was the torture death of a Somali civilian and an inquiry that resulted in the Airborne Regiment being disbanded.

In 1983-89, an air force general succeeded another air force general as CDS, and then, of course Natyncyzk followed Hillier, 2005-12. The last admiral to hold the post was Larry Murray (1996-97), and the last air force CDS was Ray Henault (2001-05).

Whoever becomes the new CDS is going to have a thankless job of ensuring the military remains effective despite an insufficient budget, limited updated equipment and with reduced numbers in the Canadian Forces.

It’s a daunting task, but one that Gen. Leslie seems to have anticipated in his report, so perhaps he is a logical choice for the job.


----------



## tomahawk6

Door #1 - Air Force or Door #2 Navy. Its a long shot IMO that they would pick another Army GO. The US has begun to shift assets to the Pacific and Canada may go that route as well.


----------



## Journeyman

I think that this whole discussion speaks more to how shallow the pool of potential successors are *who would want the job * at this post-Afghanistan, budget-slashing juncture.

Including the caveat of who may be _deemed_ politically tainted simply by virtue of their uniform colour, given the current media hate-on for the F-35.


Edit: slight modification


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Door #1 - Air Force or Door #2 Navy. Its a long shot IMO that they would pick another Army GO. The US has begun to shift assets to the Pacific and Canada may go that route as well.



Entirely doubtful that Canada will shift any forces, mostly due to political reasons.  The R22eR will NEVER leave Quebec, nor any element of 5 Bde.  1 Bde is firmly entrenched in the west, and the RCR in the east.  Air bases will almost guaranteed stay static, with Trenton being transport as its central and close to Ottawa, the fighters n Bagotville staying in Quebec, and Cold Lake staying put.  I couldn't even see ships moving from east to west coast as that would mean pulling money out of the Have not Nova Scotia economy and into the BC economy.


----------



## dapaterson

I think the press is on to something.  Maybe the CF does need to reach out to a former gunner, no longer in the public eye, but for who the Canadian public has a deep, long-lasting affection.  One who was not afraid to call it as he saw it.  One who clearly demonstrated that he could work as part of a team, but who also stood out amongst his peers.


It is time for Don Ferguson, of the Royal Canadian Air Farce's Chicken Cannon, to be named the next CDS.








(Yes, I know there may be some work to do in rebuilding bridges with The RCR.  Such is the life of a CDS.)


----------



## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I think the press is on to something.  Maybe the CF does need to reach out to a former gunner, no longer in the public eye, but for who the Canadian public has a deep, long-lasting affection.  One who was not afraid to call it as he saw it.  One who clearly demonstrated that he could work as part of a team, but who also stood out amongst his peers.
> 
> 
> It is time for Don Ferguson, of the Royal Canadian Air Farce's Chicken Cannon, to be named the next CDS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Yes, I know there may be some work to do in rebuilding bridges with The RCR.  Such is the life of a CDS.)



I second the nomination.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I think the press is on to something.  Maybe the CF does need to reach out to a former gunner, no longer in the public eye, but for who the Canadian public has a deep, long-lasting affection.  One who was not afraid to call it as he saw it.  One who clearly demonstrated that he could work as part of a team, but who also stood out amongst his peers.
> 
> 
> It is time for Don Ferguson, of the Royal Canadian Air Farce's Chicken Cannon, to be named the next CDS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Yes, I know there may be some work to do in rebuilding bridges with The RCR.  Such is the life of a CDS.)



[tangent]
I hated the way they wore our uniforms. Especially when they decided to wear CADPAT well in advance of issue to most troops. You'd think that after all those years, someone would show them how to wear a beret. 

It was a great show while on radio. It sucked as soon as it went on tv.
[/tangent]


_edit for clarity_


----------



## Kirkhill

recceguy said:
			
		

> [tangent]
> I hated the way they wore our uniforms. Especially when they decided to wear CADPAT well in advance of issue to most troops. You'd think that after all those years, someone would show them how to wear a beret.
> 
> It was a great show while on radio. It sucked as soon as it went on tv.
> [/tangent]



So let me understand.

A/The key criterion for the selection of the CDS is the stylish manner in which he/she wears the head-dress?

In that case I'll throw my hat in the ring and promise to learn how to wear it after a suitable breaking in period.

Mind, I've always had a preference for Glengarries and Balmorals.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> So let me understand.
> 
> A/The key criterion for the selection of the CDS is the stylish manner in which he/she wears the head-dress?
> 
> In that case I'll throw my hat in the ring and promise to learn how to wear it after a suitable breaking in period.
> 
> Mind, I've always had a preference for Glengarries and Balmorals.



I was talking about the twits on the Air Farce.

I'll edit my original.


----------



## Kirkhill

I was trying to be humorous and failed....

Par for the course.


----------



## dapaterson

Then again, LGen Devlin's beret looks a tad misshapen too.

And he does bear an uncanny resemblance to Mike.  From Canmore.


----------



## Neolithium

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Then again, LGen Devlin's beret looks a tad misshapen too.
> 
> And he does bear an uncanny resemblance to Mike.  From Canmore.



Thanks, now I have to clean my keyboard.  :nod:  I've had a hard time figuring out who it was exactly he reminded me of, and now you've given it to me!


----------



## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Then again, LGen Devlin's beret looks a tad misshapen too.
> 
> And he does bear an uncanny resemblance to Mike.  From Canmore.



You, sir, are brilliant.

Bang on!


----------



## Remius

Well he could always come back as a reserve annuitant...oh wait.


----------



## The Bread Guy

.... according to this media account


> There are strong signals that Canada's chief of defence staff is on the verge of leaving his post.
> 
> While speaking to Canadian Forces troops taking part in annual summer exercises up north, both Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Defence Minister Peter MacKay sounded like they were bidding farewell to Gen. Walt Natynczyk.
> 
> Harper cut away from his prepared remarks at the close of Operation Nanook to thank Natynczyk for his years of service.
> 
> And after Harper's speech, MacKay took the podium to publicly salute Natynczyk's dedication to the military before calling the general up to say a few words of his own ....


----------



## GK .Dundas

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> .... according to this media account


 I guess that his official date of retirement and the retirement party wasn't enough of a hint!


----------



## ModlrMike

Looks like a decision has been made:

Lt.-Gen. Tom Lawson named Canada's top general


----------



## OldSolduer

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Looks like a decision has been made:
> 
> Lt.-Gen. Tom Lawson named Canada's top general



I have no idea who he is. Anyone got a bio on him?


----------



## mariomike

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I have no idea who he is. Anyone got a bio on him?



http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dsa-dns/sa-ns/ab/sobv-vbos-eng.asp?mAction=View&mBiographyID=529


----------



## dapaterson

From his bio:



> Lieutenant-General Thomas J. Lawson is the Deputy Commander, North American Aerospace Defense Command, Peterson AFB, Colorado.
> LGen Lawson graduated from the Royal Military College (RMC) of Canada with a Degree in Electrical Engineering in 1979. He completed wings and fighter training and was posted to 421 Squadron in Baden, Germany, in 1981, where he flew the CF-104 Starfighters. Back in Canada in 1985, he completed a Master's Degree in Electrical Engineering with RMC and served as a professor.
> 
> 
> Promoted to Major in 1988, LGen Lawson was posted to Montgomery, Alabama, to attend the USAF Staff College. During that time, he also completed a Master's Degree in Public Administration at Auburn University.
> 
> 
> Posted to Cold Lake in 1991, LGen Lawson completed CF-18 Hornet training and then returned to CFB Baden to fly operationally with 421 and 439 Squadrons. Upon closure of Baden, he was posted to Cold Lake and was assigned to 410 Squadron in charge of the Fighter Weapons Instructor School.
> 
> 
> In 1996, LGen Lawson was promoted to LCol and posted to Ottawa as a career manager. In 1998, he was appointed CO of 412 Squadron where he flew the Challenger until 2000. Following this command, he was placed in charge of the career management for the Air Force, at which time he also completed the USAF Air War College Program.
> 
> 
> Promoted Colonel in 2003, LGen Lawson held various staff positions with the Air Force before joining the CF Transformation Team in 2005 and leading the stand up of the Strategic Joint Staff. Posted to 8 Wing in 2006, he completed a year in command of CFB Trenton before being promoted to BGen in May 2007 and appointed Commandant of RMC.
> 
> 
> In 2009, he was promoted to MGen and appointed Assistant Chief of the Air Staff. In July 2011, he was promoted to his current rank and appointed Deputy Commander NORAD.


----------



## Edward Campbell

More, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and mail_:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/lt-gen-thomas-lawson-named-canadas-new-chief-of-defence-staff/article4500636/







> Lt.-Gen. Thomas Lawson named Canada's new chief of defence staff
> 
> The Canadian Press
> 
> Published Monday, Aug. 27 2012
> 
> Lieutenant-General Thomas Lawson has been named as Canada’s next new chief of the defence staff, the country’s top military post.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper says Lt.-Gen. Lawson, the current deputy commander of NORAD — the North American Aerospace Defense Command — will formally succeed General Walt Natynczyk within weeks.
> 
> Lt.-Gen. Lawson is an air force officer and one-time commander of the Royal Military College.
> 
> He graduated from the college in 1979 and also commanded an air squadron and Canadian Forces Base Trenton during his career.
> 
> He became deputy commander at NORAD in July 2011.
> 
> Gen. Natynczyk has held the chief’s job since July 2008.




This, in some small way, validates the rumours that the two most often named RCN officers both asked to not have the job.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Never heard of him.  At least it's not Leslie.  I'll wait and see otherwise.


----------



## Gunner98

Take a about a career with a jet-pack - 9 years from promotion to Col to CDS.


----------



## dapaterson

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Take a about a career with a jet-pack - 9 years from promotion to Col to CDS.



On the other hand, as a MilCol grad in '79 it means he enrolled in '75 - that's 37 years of service so far.

So more of a late bloomer than a jet pack.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I suppose he is a safe bet seeing as he has been working in a high profile slot with the cousins down south as of late.  They'll know him and that should make relations easier between us and them would it not?


----------



## Danjanou

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I have no idea who he is. Anyone got a bio on him?



Well according to one of the comments in the CBC article posted, he's .....



> ...the guy who tracks Santa ....


 8)


----------



## Snakedoc

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Well according to one of the comments in the CBC article posted, he's .....
> "...the guy who tracks Santa ...."
> 8)



Hahaha.  Not only does he have a good relationship with American officials but he also has an in with the big guy up North.  This can only help with our Arctic sovereignty issues right?  Speaking of which, is Santa Canadian? haha


----------



## vonGarvin

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, is Santa Canadian? haha


No.  He's Greek.


----------



## The Bread Guy

FYI, I've moved all the "we have a new CDS" posts to a new thread of its own:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/107240.0.html

Enjoy!

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## Kirkhill

Technoviking said:
			
		

> No.  He's Greek.



You want to start another war TV?  >

St. Nick wasn't from Greece.  He was from Turkey (Anatolia if you prefer).  

From  a link in the article posted:

"Patara - Birthplace of St. Nicholas, city west of Myra (now Demre, Turkey)"

Now his parentage,  that's probably another matter.


----------



## Snakedoc

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Now his parentage,  that's probably another matter.



But his residence.. clearly at least a dual Canadian citizen


----------



## Kirkhill

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> But his residence.. clearly at least a dual Canadian citizen



Fair dues.

Now, are you ready to perform a NEO should he run into grief on his rounds next Christmas?


----------



## The Bread Guy

And we can start reading the tea leaves re:  a new CDS inbound!


> The government is actively searching for a new top military commander to succeed General Tom Lawson after he asked that his three-year appointment not be extended.
> 
> Sources say Ottawa is now talking to prospective candidates to find the next chief of the defence staff.
> 
> “Interviews are happening,” a source, speaking on condition of anonymity, said.
> 
> (....)
> 
> *The handful of three-star generals or flag officers in the Forces are the most likely pool of candidates to replace Gen. Lawson. They’re lieutenant-general or vice-admiral rank.
> 
> They include: Marquis Hainse, Commander of the Canadian Army; Mark Norman, Commander of the Royal Canadian Navy; Guy R. Thibault, Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff; Jonathan Vance, Commander of Canadian Joint Operations Command; Michael Day, Deputy Commander Allied Joint Force Command Naples; Bob Davidson, Canada’s Military Representative to NATO in Brussels; and Alain Parent, Deputy Commander at NORAD. Michael Hood is shortly replacing Yvan Blondin as Commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force *....


----------



## rmacqueen

My money is on someone from the navy side


----------



## jollyjacktar

I would like to see General Vance get the nod.


----------



## Ostrozac

rmacqueen said:
			
		

> My money is on someone from the navy side



Who are you thinking about? VAdm Norman or VAdm Davidson? While both seem to have had solid careers (as you would expect of someone reaching that rank), neither of them seem to stand out on paper compared to the experience level of either LGen Vance or LGen Day, who would in my mind be the clear frontrunners. Although I could easily see both wanting to stay in their current jobs. LGen Vance is busy fighting a war and LGen Day gets to live in Italy!

(Yes I know that JFC Naples is a busy HQ, but hey, OUTCAN is OUTCAN!)


----------



## Edward Campbell

We've had three _Anglos_ in a row:Hillier, Natynczyk and Lawson ... just sayin'.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Is there anything barring a Log O or other support trade Officer from becoming CDS ?  It seems to be Mars / Combat Arms / Pilot solely for some reason. 

I hope for Vance as well.


----------



## Halifax Tar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> We've had three _Anglos_ in a row:Hillier, Natynczyk and Lawson ... just sayin'.



Does that matter anymore as they should be proficient in both official languages ?


----------



## Jed

If we a going with a Politically Correct selection, why not Whitecross ? Purple trade and female. (All this and good at her job too) just sayin ...


----------



## brihard

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Is there anything barring a Log O or other support trade Officer from becoming CDS ?  It seems to be Mars / Combat Arms / Pilot solely for some reason.
> 
> I hope for Vance as well.



Just my two cents, but the role of the military is to kill people and break their stuff. I would contend that the highest leadership of the military should always be operators who have existed professionally within that context. I have nothing but respect for all of the support trades; dad and one of his wives were/are both successful LogOs. But the CAF as a whole is a fighting formation, and should be led by those who have come up commanding progressively large levels of same.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Does that matter anymore as they should be proficient in both official languages ?




Dunno ...

One would hope not, but I had an interesting chat, yesterday evening, with a former official from the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages and, although the topic of CDS didn't come up, he seemed to suggest that it did. The _notion_ (rule?) is that _Francophones_ should be fairly and visibly represented at all levels of government.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Just my two cents, but the role of the military is to kill people and break their stuff. I would contend that the highest leadership of the military should always be operators who have existed professionally within that context. I have nothing but respect for all of the support trades; dad and one of his wives were/are both successful LogOs. But the CAF as a whole is a fighting formation, and should be led by those who have come up commanding progressively large levels of same.


Good point, but is the post of CDS about "wielding and fighting" the organization, or about "managing" the organization?  There's merit in your point, but methinks there's as much (if not more) day-to-day issue-politics-and-people wrestling at that level as there is leading the troops into the fight.


----------



## Halifax Tar

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Good point, but is the post of CDS about "wielding and fighting" the organization, or about "managing" the organization?  There's merit in your point, but methinks there's as much (if not more) day-to-day issue-politics-and-people wrestling at that level as there is leading the troops into the fight.



I would actually think a strong financial, logistical and material managment background would be a great asset.


----------



## Ostrozac

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Is there anything barring a Log O or other support trade Officer from becoming CDS ?  It seems to be Mars / Combat Arms / Pilot solely for some reason.



We have had a Sig O as CDS. And a Log O as CLS/Commander FMC/Commander LFC (whatever we were calling the Army at that time) -- so there is precedent for support arms advancing to high rank.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Good point, but is the post of CDS about "wielding and fighting" the organization, or about "managing" the organization?  There's merit in your point, but methinks there's as much (if not more) day-to-day issue-politics-and-people wrestling at that level as there is leading the troops into the fight.



Actually, one of the most important job of the CDS is to be the military adviser to the Prime Minister (or GG in council as you wish). So he must posses detailed knowledge of the use of force in conflicts, and I am not sure that  qualifies the purple trades, no matter how good they are.

This said, on the Navy side, my money would be on VAdm Davidson. Great leader (we commissioned on the same parade in the reserves, before he went Reg) and he is from the submarine branch - so very discrete. But my personal preference at this time would be LGen Vance.


----------



## Loachman

My first choice would be LGen Vance as well, with LGen Parent as runner-up.


----------



## Jed

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Actually, one of the most important job of the CDS is to be the military adviser to the Prime Minister (or GG in council as you wish). So he must posses detailed knowledge of the use of force in conflicts, and I am not sure that  qualifies the purple trades, no matter how good they are.
> 
> This said, on the Navy side, my money would be on VAdm Davidson. Great leader (we commissioned on the same parade in the reserves, before he went Reg) and he is from the submarine branch - so very discrete. But my personal preference at this time would be LGen Vance.



I have to agree with that sentiment.


----------



## observor 69

From todays G&M, interesting article.

Top soldier stepping down at critical time for Canadian Forces 

"They include: Marquis Hainse, Commander of the Canadian Army; Mark Norman, Commander of the Royal Canadian Navy; Guy R. Thibault, Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff; Jonathan Vance, Commander of Canadian Joint Operations Command; Michael Day, Deputy Commander Allied Joint Force Command Naples; Bob Davidson, Canada’s Military Representative to NATO in Brussels; and Alain Parent, Deputy Commander at NORAD. Michael Hood is shortly replacing Yvan Blondin as Commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force.

Canadian politicians have overwhelmingly preferred appointing army or air force officers to serve as chief of the defence staff in recent decades. The last top military commander from the navy was appointed 18 years ago and this was an acting role only. Prior to that, the previous naval appointment was 22 years ago for one year."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-searching-for-new-top-military-commander-to-replace-gen-lawson/article23258926/

Another thought.....Gen. Lawson has decided three years is enough? Will a potential successor feel anymore inclined to take on this "challenging"  > position.

And ref the articles comment that he flew CF-104's, which is correct, but might I add :
"In 1991, he was posted to CFB Cold Lake and completed CF-18 Hornet training and returned to CFB Baden-Soellingen to fly operationally with 421 and 439 Squadrons" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Lawson


----------



## upandatom

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> We have had a Sig O as CDS. And a Log O as CLS/Commander FMC/Commander LFC (whatever we were calling the Army at that time) -- so there is precedent for support arms advancing to high rank.


Im surprised with a Sig O as a CDS the wheels didn't just fall off the bus and it crashed and burned. 

Isnt Soldier first? and the basis of writing those orders does not change. Any good leader is going to listen to their support. 
Using that, Any leader can with the right team can fill that position. The problem will be is finding one that instills confidence back into the CAF and its members. Pushing policy and leadership in the right direction.


----------



## PanaEng

upandatom said:
			
		

> Im surprised with a Sig O as a CDS the wheels didn't just fall off the bus and it crashed and burned.
> 
> Isnt Soldier first? and the basis of writing those orders does not change. Any good leader is going to listen to their support.
> Using that, Any leader can with the right team can fill that position. The problem will be is finding one that instills confidence back into the CAF and its members. Pushing policy and leadership in the right direction.



Indeed, as "general" officer, after attending command colleges, joint staffs colleges, etc. they should be pretty much interchangeable - of course, there will always be some biases...


----------



## Old Sweat

This story from the Globe and Mail website suggests the search has narrowed to four candidates. It is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

Search for Canada’s next top commander narrowed to four men
STEVEN CHASE
OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
Published Tuesday, Mar. 03 2015, 4:10 PM EST
Last updated Tuesday, Mar. 03 2015, 4:14 PM EST

Canada’s senior military commander will be stepping down in a matter of months and a search for his replacement has been narrowed to four men, sources say.

As The Globe first reported Tuesday, General Tom Lawson is leaving after one term as chief of the defence staff and a hunt is under way for his successor.

The government has compiled a short list of general and flag officers to replace Gen. Lawson and it includes:

Lieutenant-General John Vance, commander of Joint Operations Command; Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, commander of the Royal Canadian Navy; Lieutenant-General Mike Day, deputy commander Allied Joint Force Command Naples; and Marquis Hainse, commander of the Canadian Army.

Gen. Lawson declined comment Tuesday on when he might depart. “The [chief of the defence staff] is travelling ... and won’t be available for interviews,” Lieutenant-Colonel Daryl Morrell said.

Defence Minister Jason Kenney’s office said it will announce Gen. Lawson’s successor when he decides to leave.

“General Tom Lawson continues to serve the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces and we continue to have full confidence in him. When he chooses to move on, a successor will be announced,” Lauren Armstrong, spokeswoman for Mr. Kenney ,said.

Gen. Lawson’s term technically extends to the fall but he could be gone by this summer, sources say.

This changing of the guard comes at a critical time for the Canadian Armed Forces, which are grappling with a budget squeeze, difficulties buying new equipment and the challenge of managing a peacetime army that, aside from a detachment of special forces troops in Iraq, is largely out of the fight.

Gen. Lawson, a former CF-104 Starfighter pilot, turns 58 this year.

His tenure began in October, 2012.

He’s presided over a military struggling with cutbacks and recruiting while mounting an aerial combat mission in Iraq as well as air and sea deployments to help the NATO alliance counter Russian aggression in eastern Europe.

Whoever takes over from Gen. Lawson will have his or her hands full. The military faces pressing needs to re-equip its aging forces including fighter jets, supply ships and search and rescue planes, but has been unable to purchase what it needs in a timely fashion.

Last year, the Canadian Armed Forces faced allegations of sexual abuse in the ranks, documented by media investigations, and Gen. Lawson responded by launching an independent review. That review, led by former Supreme Court justice Marie Deschamps, is expected to report this spring.

The Forces must also confront internal morale problems including lingering concern after controversies over the treatment of veterans and mentally ill Forces members that Canada is not adequately providing for those injured mentally or physically by the job. The government said it’s worked to rectify things in recent years.

Among the managerial headaches for the Forces today is money after the federal government cut into its appropriations to help balance the budget.

“They have significantly less [money] than they were supposed to, or they had even a few years ago,” David Perry, senior analyst with the Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute, said.

He says this has reduced the army’s training and the flying hours available for air force personnel.


----------



## MedCorps

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Actually, one of the most important job of the CDS is to be the military adviser to the Prime Minister (or GG in council as you wish). So he must posses detailed knowledge of the use of force in conflicts, and I am not sure that  qualifies the purple trades, no matter how good they are.



It is interesting to note that the Deputy Commander (Expeditionary) at CJOC right now is a late Log O (MGen Lamarre). He is about to become the next Director of Staff at the Strategic Joint Staff.  If these two positions do not require someone with detailed knowledge of the use of force in conflict, I am not sure which ones do, seeing as DOS SJS drafts, vettes and approves for final approval submission all ROE's and CDS Planning Operational Guidance to the CDS for all CAF operations.  

MC


----------



## PuckChaser

upandatom said:
			
		

> Im surprised with a Sig O as a CDS the wheels didn't just fall off the bus and it crashed and burned.



We get it, you hate the Branch. Get over yourself.

Surprised to see LGen Thibault (a Sig O) not on the shortlist. Stand up guy, must have done something right to get up to VCDS.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Just my two cents, but the role of the military is to kill people and break their stuff. I would contend that the highest leadership of the military should always be operators who have existed professionally within that context. I have nothing but respect for all of the support trades; dad and one of his wives were/are both successful LogOs. But the CAF as a whole is a fighting formation, and should be led by those who have come up commanding progressively large levels of same.



To which I must say, "The tactics...no, amateurs discuss tactics,.... Professional soldiers study logistics." - Tom Clancy, Red Storm Rising


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

Brihard said:
			
		

> Just my two cents, but the role of the military is to kill people and break their stuff. I would contend that the highest leadership of the military should always be operators who have existed professionally within that context. I have nothing but respect for all of the support trades; dad and one of his wives were/are both successful LogOs. But the CAF as a whole is a fighting formation, and should be led by those who have come up commanding progressively large levels of same.



I disagree for the same reason I disagreed when people said we HAD to have an army CDS while we were in Afghanistan. By the time that someone rises to a position to become CDS they have already proven their knowledge of the military through staff colleges, positions, etc. Log/Sigs/EME et al officers have as much leadership as a combat arms O. Further, support trades can be exposed to RCAF, RCN, and CA environments whereas a mars will only see navy, infantry army, and pilot air environments.

Nothing in the military is hard to understand, including combat (which log pers saw in a-Stan as well). Aside from technical aspects of trades there is no reason any officer can't understand the military enough to be CDS. Let's get the best candidate, not the best one from certain trades based on whar folks signed the dotted line for.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> I disagree for the same reason I disagreed when people said we HAD to have an army CDS while we were in Afghanistan. By the time that someone rises to a position to become CDS they have already proven their knowledge of the military through staff colleges, positions, etc. Log/Sigs/EME et al officers have as much leadership as a combat arms O. Further, support trades can be exposed to RCAF, RCN, and CA environments whereas a mars will only see navy, infantry army, and pilot air environments.
> 
> Nothing in the military is hard to understand, including combat (which log pers saw in a-Stan as well). Aside from technical aspects of trades there is no reason any officer can't understand the military enough to be CDS. Let's get the best candidate, not the best one from certain trades based on whar folks signed the dotted line for.



 :goodpost:


----------



## vonGarvin

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Nothing in the military is hard to understand, including combat (which log pers saw in a-Stan as well).


While I agree with the majority of your post, Generals and Admirals all greatly qualified to be an effective CDS for the reasons you previously stated, this above part I have quoted is a bit problematic.

Combat is indeed hard to understand.  While all trades (probably event Met Tech) saw combat in Afghanistan, it was only the select few who actively planned for it and sought after it, in order to find the enemy in order to destroy him.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

Technoviking said:
			
		

> While I agree with the majority of your post, Generals and Admirals all greatly qualified to be an effective CDS for the reasons you previously stated, this above part I have quoted is a bit problematic.
> 
> Combat is indeed hard to understand.  While all trades (probably event Met Tech) saw combat in Afghanistan, it was only the select few who actively planned for it and sought after it, in order to find the enemy in order to destroy him.



Ack. The combat that I speak of is at the strategic vice the tactical level. The CDS does not need to be able to read ground and do a L,C,R analysis. What he/she needs to be able to do is understand the concepts, be able to accept the advice of their arms advisors, and make sound decisions based on governmental objectives vs tactical/operational requirements.  I would hope that a CDS who was log/eme/sigs would be able to ask for advice from his senior infantry/armour advisor on close combat, same as I would hope an infanteer CDS would ask the CAS on air matters, a pilot CDS would ask the Comd RCN on naval matters, etc. The CDS is not a tactical level officer, so the understanding of combat is, at his/her level, easy (IMHO of course). 

On a purely army side, log/eme/sigs do AOC and ATOC so they would have (hopefully as they were promoted) a good grasp on IPB, OPP, and orders. Some of my points was the CSS officers aren't helpless children uncapable of understanding "big kid" issues like combat. I HATE that mentality.

Either way, good debating points for sure!


----------



## quadrapiper

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> Ack. The combat that I speak of is at the strategic vice the tactical level. The CDS does not need to be able to read ground and do a L,C,R analysis. What he/she needs to be able to do is understand the concepts, be able to accept the advice of their arms advisors, and make sound decisions based on governmental objectives vs tactical/operational requirements.  I would hope that a CDS who was log/eme/sigs would be able to ask for advice from his senior infantry/armour advisor on close combat, same as I would hope an infanteer CDS would ask the CAS on air matters, a pilot CDS would ask the Comd RCN on naval matters, etc. The CDS is not a tactical level officer, so the understanding of combat is, at his/her level, easy (IMHO of course).
> 
> On a purely army side, log/eme/sigs do AOC and ATOC so they would have (hopefully as they were promoted) a good grasp on IPB, OPP, and orders. Some of my points was the CSS officers aren't helpless children uncapable of understanding "big kid" issues like combat. I HATE that mentality.
> 
> Either way, good debating points for sure!


For the sake of discussion, it seems like a non-combat-arms officer might have been required to handle that sort of disparate, multi-trade input and set of demands for much longer, and perhaps much earlier, in their careers than an equivalent combat arms officer.


----------



## Blackadder1916

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> For the sake of discussion, it seems like a non-combat-arms officer might have been required to handle that sort of disparate, multi-trade input and set of demands for much longer, and perhaps much earlier, in their careers than an equivalent combat arms officer.



And it could be said that a non-combat-arms officer would be just as singularly focused in the requirements of his immediate position (supporting operators) as a combat arms officer at equivalent points in their careers.  The main difference between the operators and the supporters at the dizzying heights when they can see the CDS position within reach is that the operators (in most cases) have had more experience in COMMAND of operators at increasing levels.


----------



## vonGarvin

And the CDS has so much more to worry about.

Procurement. 
Recruiting.
Strategic guidance.

Et cetera...


----------



## Happy Guy

Jed said:
			
		

> I have to agree with that sentiment.


What do you mean by detailed knowledge of force in conflicts?  Do you actual application of combat force? Do you actual combat experience?  Do you mean academic knowledge?
If you look at the current CDS it appears that he has no actual application of combat force or combat experience when he was chosen.  Does this mean he was the wrong choice?

In today's generation of Officers 
On asymmetrical land operations the majority of the army officers, who deployed in Afghanistan will have experienced combat operations although fewer support trades will have actual experience in conducting actual combat operations - close with and destroy the enemy.  
(Forgive me but I'm Army) I believe that on a ship only the bridge officers actually get to "see" combat operations although all on board will experience it.  What about the boarding party?  If the Landing Party Officer is the ship's Log O or MARE O does this experience in conducting actual operations count?
Only fighter and helicopter pilots fight - engage the enemy.  Does this mean transport pilots and air navigators are disqualified?  Yes I know that transport (fixed wing and rotary) pilots fly in combat zones and are fired upon, but to use a poor analogy they are like flying truck drivers except than in Land operations truck drivers are armed and can engage the enemy if required.

All CAF Officers has academic knowledge of combat operation by virtue of training.  How much much knowledge is required?  In the United States a good number of Officers have Masters Degrees and many have doctorates.  Should the CAF demand that our General / Flag Officers have at least a post graduate degree besides a valid second language profile?  Will having a post graduate degree make a better CDS?  What if the person does not have a degree of post graduate degree but have actual combat experience will this person qualify?

To conduct actual operations is only part of warfare.  Building a robust, sustainable support network (Logistics, engineering (all types), communications, intergovernmental affairs - diplomacy) is part of it.  Both depend on each other to function properly, but at the end of the day we still need someone to actually understand the implications of combat operations, give the command to use and wield the sword.  Will an operator have better understanding?  At the end of the day the government decides based on their requirement much like General Ramsey Withers, Sig O, who I believed did an excellent job and was a Korean War veteran.


----------



## NSDreamer

Happy Guy said:
			
		

> All CAF Officers has academic knowledge of combat operation by virtue of training.  How much much knowledge is required?  In the United States a good number of Officers have Masters Degrees and many have doctorates.  Should the CAF demand that our General / Flag Officers have at least a post graduate degree besides a valid second language profile?  Will having a post graduate degree make a better CDS?  What if the person does not have a degree of post graduate degree but have actual combat experience will this person qualify?



 We pretty much do already, to give you an example my Comd has 3x Masters degrees. To be a Snr O in the Log Trade it is the unspoken rule you need a masters degree. I don't know of any majors that do not either have it, or are working on it...


----------



## upandatom

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> We get it, you hate the Branch. Get over yourself.
> 
> Surprised to see LGen Thibault (a Sig O) not on the shortlist. Stand up guy, must have done something right to get up to VCDS.



I far from hate the branch, it was a joke. IT is full of alot of good people, and good leaders. The branch gave me the training and tools to be successful civilian side, and I am grateful for that, but there is only one or two Officers I have served under, seen and dealt with signal side that are able to look at the whole picture, including the support required.


----------



## Halifax Tar

I would love hear ERC weigh in on this topic.


----------



## Good2Golf

Norman or Day, and the choice will be a portent of where the Government intends to focus CAF activity.  If slight increase to existing international engagement, either in ME or UKR, then Day the likely choice. If consolidation and greater focus on CAF developing for a longer-term engagement, expect Norman.  If I were a bookie in Vegas, I'd give Norman 60:40 over Day.

:2c:


----------



## kratz

I think G2G nailed it.

If the GoC is truly interested in long term rebuilding of the CAF, Norman will be CDS. There are enough 'hot potatoes' to juggle without conducting operations, unless something more serious breaks out.


----------



## JS2218

I don't think there's any special science to figuring out who the Government will choose as the next CDS.

Statistically speaking, the person to become CDS was usually either: a) VCDS; b) a liaison/deputy commander at NORAD or NATO; or c) the Army Commander. It's usually Air Force or Army, although I *thought* there were supposed to be rotations between all three services equally. The CDS usually comes from a Combat Arms role (artillery, infantry, or pilot). That means a logistician (e.g. Chief of Military Personnel) is probably out, even if that person could bring some sense to some of our largest problem files (*cough* procurement).

Practically speaking, we have to ask where the Government will want to focus its efforts. LGen Thibault is relatively new to the VCDS role, and I would think the Government would want a competent deputy to oversee the transition to a new CDS. He also must be nearing CRA 60 (if he was born in 1960ish seeing how he joined in 1978). LGen Vance has done a great job in commanding CJOC. He too is overseeing a relatively 'new' department since replacing the DOTCOMS with CJOC. I would think the Government would want someone to stay in that role, as Vance is now, to 'complete' the Iraq mission and oversee a short transition period following Iraq. The Government also wouldn't want to be seen as being too close or supportive of Vance in the event something goes sideways.

The Navy hasn't had a CDS since 1997, and even then it was a short appointment. The Navy has also recently rolled out its future plans, and this Government has placed a high priority on Arctic sovereignty. With the current environment of Russian aggression and the Government wanting to show it defends its land, my money is on the Government choosing a Navy CDS to bolster a focus on a) operationalizing the Navy's dreams of upgrading the fleet; and b) increasing Arctic sovereignty efforts.


----------



## tomahawk6

Its a political job.Our own Chairman of the JCS is ineffectual and is perfect for THIS administration.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

T6, the Canadian CDS is not a political job like the US JCS because we do not have separate services like you. The CDs is the head of the whole military , the same way your CNO is head of your Navy, or the Army Chief of Staff is head of your Army.

He is not overseeing a Committee of such head of services.


----------



## OldSolduer

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> T6, the Canadian CDS is not a political job like the US JCS because we do not have separate services like you. The CDs is the head of the whole military , the same way your CNO is head of your Navy, or the Army Chief of Staff is head of your Army.
> 
> He is not overseeing a Committee of such head of services.



Maybe not in that sense, but it is political in the sense that the CDS has to keep the peace within the CAF as well as interact with civilians and politicians. It's not a job for a bumbler.


----------



## tomahawk6

In the US the Chairman's job rotates among the services.But the job itself is political in that he spends a fair amount of time testifying before Congress about one issue or another.The service chiefs routine is about the same.Day to day management usually falls to the Vice CJCS and Vice Chiefs of Staff.


----------



## PanaEng

JS2218 said:
			
		

> I don't think there's any special science to figuring out who the Government will choose as the next CDS.
> 
> Statistically speaking, the person to become CDS was usually either: a) VCDS; b) a liaison/deputy commander at NORAD or NATO; or c) the Army Commander. It's usually Air Force or Army, although I *thought* there were supposed to be rotations between all three services equally. The CDS usually comes from a Combat Arms role (artillery, infantry, or pilot). That means a logistician (e.g. Chief of Military Personnel) is probably out, even if that person could bring some sense to some of our largest problem files (*cough* procurement).
> 
> Practically speaking, we have to ask where the Government will want to focus its efforts. LGen Thibault is relatively new to the VCDS role, and I would think the Government would want a competent deputy to oversee the transition to a new CDS. He also must be nearing CRA 60 (if he was born in 1960ish seeing how he joined in 1978). LGen Vance has done a great job in commanding CJOC. He too is overseeing a relatively 'new' department since replacing the DOTCOMS with CJOC. I would think the Government would want someone to stay in that role, as Vance is now, to 'complete' the Iraq mission and oversee a short transition period following Iraq. The Government also wouldn't want to be seen as being too close or supportive of Vance in the event something goes sideways.
> 
> The Navy hasn't had a CDS since 1997, and even then it was a short appointment. The Navy has also recently rolled out its future plans, and this Government has placed a high priority on Arctic sovereignty. With the current environment of Russian aggression and the Government wanting to show it defends its land, my money is on the Government choosing a Navy CDS to bolster a focus on a) operationalizing the Navy's dreams of upgrading the fleet; and b) increasing Arctic sovereignty efforts.


FYI, the CMP is not a Logistician, she is an Engineer (mind you, Air) - but just appointed so chances are she will stay there for a while.
Your allusion to the VCDS being somewhat more competent than the others is a stretch; they all got there because they are competent,  in any role. (although, in the 90's we had some bad examples) - but, they all have their biases and that will make the decision a more personal choice rather than some sort of formula.
Otherwise, I think your analysis is bang on.


----------



## JS2218

PanaEng said:
			
		

> FYI, the CMP is not a Logistician, she is an Engineer (mind you, Air) - but just appointed so chances are she will stay there for a while.
> Your allusion to the VCDS being somewhat more competent than the others is a stretch; they all got there because they are competent,  in any role. (although, in the 90's we had some bad examples) - but, they all have their biases and that will make the decision a more personal choice rather than some sort of formula.
> Otherwise, I think your analysis is bang on.



Has it been announced yet? As far as I can find (and knew...) it was LGen Millar. I more meant along the lines of someone with a logistics background than the trade _per se _ - someone who has experience in developing and growing policies surrounding personnel, materiel management, acquisitions, finance, and so on. But part of the problem, IMO, is that there becomes a rank where commanders and SNCOs are appointed to command/oversee departments, branches, and trades they're not familiar with. It's not always a problem, but having a logistics officer by trade as CMP _could_ help (and thereafter pushing him/her up to CDS).

 I did not mean to imply the VCDS was any more competent than the non-VCDS Generals  What I meant is that change of command always requires continuity in governance, knowledge, experience, and so on. The VCDS _runs _ the CAF while the CDS _commands_ it. The new CDS will require a deputy who can give him/her a no-nonsense briefing on what's going on, what most urgently needs their attention, and so on.


----------



## dapaterson

My out-of-left-field idea: It's time for Batisse to be CDS.


----------



## Good2Golf

You mean Batisse XVIII?


----------



## dapaterson

Well, either CDS or a nice curry...


----------



## daftandbarmy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Well, either CDS or a nice curry...



Speaking of the more important of the two to me persoanlly, a nice curry, I've been feeding regularly off of various curries by Vij, now available in local markets. Fan-tastic....


----------



## The Bread Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My out-of-left-field idea: It's time for Batisse to be CDS.


You can start the t-shirts or golf shirts rolling off the presses for the "write-in campaign" ....


----------



## Blackadder1916

dapaterson said:
			
		

> . . . It's time for Batisse to be CDS.



Would the CFCWO be his handler?


----------



## Good2Golf

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Would the CFCWO be his handler?



...or cook?   :-\


----------



## Old Sweat

Where do you put four maples leaves on an animal trailer?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Is this a trick question?

Obviously: Out of reach of the animal's mouth !!!


----------



## observor 69

http://www.hilltimes.com/feature/hill-life-people/2013/03/25/that%E2%80%99s-one-gussied-up-goat-meet-batisse-the-royal-22e/34092

Meet Batisse the Royal 22e Regiment’s mascot


----------



## caocao

JS2218 said:
			
		

> Has it been announced yet? As far as I can find (and knew...) it was LGen Millar. I more meant along the lines of someone with a logistics background than the trade _per se _ - someone who has experience in developing and growing policies surrounding personnel, materiel management, acquisitions, finance, and so on. But part of the problem, IMO, is that there becomes a rank where commanders and SNCOs are appointed to command/oversee departments, branches, and trades they're not familiar with. It's not always a problem, but having a logistics officer by trade as CMP _could_ help (and thereafter pushing him/her up to CDS).
> 
> I did not mean to imply the VCDS was any more competent than the non-VCDS Generals  What I meant is that change of command always requires continuity in governance, knowledge, experience, and so on. The VCDS _runs _ the CAF while the CDS _commands_ it. The new CDS will require a deputy who can give him/her a no-nonsense briefing on what's going on, what most urgently needs their attention, and so on.



Yes it has been announced, MGen Chris Whitecross (Const Engr background) will be the new CMP.  I heard unofficially that the change will happen before the APS (early June).


----------



## dapaterson

I heard unofficially that it would be after St Jean Baptiste.


----------



## TCBF

- Wait - are we out of Dragoons yet?


----------



## dapaterson

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Wait - are we out of Dragoons yet?



Well, I suppose there's one more.


----------



## OldSolduer

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Well, I suppose there's one more.



Want me to say hi and put in a good word for you tomorrow?


----------



## JS2218

caocao said:
			
		

> Yes it has been announced, MGen Chris Whitecross (Const Engr background) will be the new CMP.  I heard unofficially that the change will happen before the APS (early June).



Cool! I've spoken with her a few times, but don't really know her.


----------



## caocao

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I heard unofficially that it would be after St Jean Baptiste.



Interesting...I heard 1 June.


----------



## tomahawk6

Could Lieutenant-General Guy Thibault move up ?


----------



## Good2Golf

He could. Gen Natynczyk was the Vice Chief as an LGen before he was appointed CDS.


----------



## tomahawk6

Thanks G2G


----------



## TCBF

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Want me to say hi and put in a good word for you tomorrow?



- You can tell him that I said hello and am enjoying retirement! We had first met when he was posted to 8CH(PL) Lahr.
I last saw him last fall when he took the time during a visit to Wainwright to speak with soldiers in his bde who were attending a 3CDTC course.


----------



## dimsum

Mercedes Stephenson's FB page says that LGen Vance is the next CDS.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mercedes-Stephenson/174940485877060?fref=ts


----------



## vonGarvin

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Mercedes Stephenson's FB page says that LGen Vance is the next CDS.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mercedes-Stephenson/174940485877060?fref=ts


Awesome news!


----------



## jollyjacktar

Good man at last.


----------



## Edward Campbell

I have known LGen Vance literally since he was a small boy (his father, the late LGen Jack Vance, was my company commander back in the 1960s and we subalterns were regular guests in the Vance family home); he's an excellent man.

But bear in mind that he is moving to a new and very strange _battlefield_ where allies and enemies are the same and they look like this:







     
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




     
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



     Janice Charette                         Paul Rochon                            Yaprak Baltacıoğlu, 
Clerk of the Privy Council     Deputy Minister of Finance       Secretary of the Treasury Board
and Secretary of the Cabinet

These people are: a) scary smart, b) committed to _national_ agendas of their own, and c) mistrustful (based on experience) of the _ability_ of senior military officers to analyze situations, make sound (bureaucratic/political/financial) decisions and keep "on programme." They live in a world in which LGen Vance has little experience/exposure.

The CDS _manages_, administers and _leads_ a force that reacts to the prime minister's direction. Defence and national security _policy_ (and _missions_ for the CF) come from Ms Charette; M. Rochon decides how much, or little, money the CF gets and Ms Baltacıoğlu (and some colleagues), not the CDS, will decide on which (and how many) ships, planes and trucks the government buys for the CF. One of the CDS' jobs is to persuade these people, and others like them, that he understands what Canada (not just the CF) needs.


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## Scoobie Newbie

Toronto Star is reported that he is the front runner. Nothing about clinching it.


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## PanaEng

Nothing confirmed yet but CTV is reporting it as well. 
http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/jonathan-vance-to-be-named-chief-of-defence-staff-1.2310799


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## OldSolduer

I dare say that attempting to persuade three bureaucrats would be much harder than campaigning against the Taliban.


Good luck to him.


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## The Bread Guy

PanaEng said:
			
		

> Nothing confirmed yet but CTV is reporting it as well.
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/jonathan-vance-to-be-named-chief-of-defence-staff-1.2310799


More of the same from the Globe:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/top-soldier-in-islamic-state-mission-poised-to-be-new-chief-of-defence-staff/article23796023/


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## Edward Campbell

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I dare say that attempting to persuade three bureaucrats would be much harder than campaigning against the Taliban.
> 
> 
> Good luck to him.




I refer you back several years to this discussion. In my view the issue still stands, unaltered: the (policy) _centre_ (PCO, Finance and Treasury) do not believe that admirals and generals are competent, top level, managers.


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## Pieman

Having worked close with Vance in Afghanistan I can say he knows how to play the political game. He has built up a strong relationship with Harper over the years, and Harper likely trusts him. The man is half General half politician. He knows how to convince people to try new ideas by gently leading the horse to water, so to speak. He is a hands down 'Mission before the Man' mentality. It shows in how he does everything. 

I'm curious what the priorities he is going to focus on when taking the position. Within the Forces I am hoping he will seek to specialize our forces rather than having a wide spread, diverse, and IMHO a thinly spread Force. He often talked about how we are a small Army so we must be a quality Army.


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## Scoobie Newbie

Perhaps you can ask him to cut the bloated HQ by 3/4


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## dapaterson

In the 1970s, 15% of the Reg F was officers.  Today it's 25%.  That's a big part of the problem.


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## tomahawk6

Pieman said:
			
		

> Having worked close with Vance in Afghanistan I can say he knows how to play the political game. He has built up a strong relationship with Harper over the years, and Harper likely trusts him. The man is half General half politician. He knows how to convince people to try new ideas by gently leading the horse to water, so to speak. He is a hands down 'Mission before the Man' mentality. It shows in how he does everything.
> 
> I'm curious what the priorities he is going to focus on when taking the position. Within the Forces I am hoping he will seek to specialize our forces rather than having a wide spread, diverse, and IMHO a thinly spread Force. He often talked about how we are a small Army so we must be a quality Army.



The battlefield will be the budget and the budget will dictate the force.Rocky times ahead I'm afraid.


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## daftandbarmy

Pieman said:
			
		

> Having worked close with Vance in Afghanistan I can say he knows how to play the political game. He has built up a strong relationship with Harper over the years, and Harper likely trusts him. The man is half General half politician. He knows how to convince people to try new ideas by gently leading the horse to water, so to speak. He is a hands down 'Mission before the Man' mentality. It shows in how he does everything.
> 
> I'm curious what the priorities he is going to focus on when taking the position. Within the Forces I am hoping he will seek to specialize our forces rather than having a wide spread, diverse, and IMHO a thinly spread Force. He often talked about how we are a small Army so we must be a quality Army.



Well I guess we can get ready for the introduction of conscription then, right?  ;D

http://montrealsimon.blogspot.ca/2015/04/is-stephen-harper-planning-to-conscript.html


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## PuckChaser

We can't afford the Army we have, why would we need more soldiers?


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## Retired AF Guy

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Well I guess we can get ready for the introduction of conscription then, right?  ;D
> 
> http://montrealsimon.blogspot.ca/2015/04/is-stephen-harper-planning-to-conscript.html



Really?? We are supposed to take some rants from a left-wing conspiracy website seriously??


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## PuckChaser

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Really?? We are supposed to take some rants from a left-wing conspiracy website seriously??



It was on Canadian Veterans Advocacy site too, which I guess completely lines up with your statement.


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## McG

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Perhaps you can ask him to cut the bloated HQ by 3/4


The PM specifically directed, during the change of command for present CDS, that HQ and tail baggage was to be cut while teeth preserved.  I don't hold too much hope that the same direction might achieve substantially better results this time.


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## PuckChaser

And yet:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/news/article.page?doc=establishment-of-the-canadian-forces-intelligence-command/hlrp4gs7


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## Scoobie Newbie

So I guess the military gets to choose which battles it will fight.


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## Haggis

Why not just leave the post vacant?  Let the Minister take direction from the PMO and disseminate it to the DND and the CAF via the DM and VCDS.


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## PuckChaser

If we have a VCDS with no actual CDS, isn't that like being appointed the 2iC of a 1-man det?


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## Edward Campbell

Regardless of which of the generally excellent officers is chosen he (and the DM and the MND) need to understand that the prime minister told them (back in 2012) that he wanted cuts to the defence superstructure. Prime Minster Harper singled out "corporate and institutional support and services," which is not very secret code for headquarters and real estate. In other words Prime Minister Harper told his MND (and through him the DM and CDS) that he wanted cuts to admirals and colonels and office buildings, not to combat units; but at least some of Peter MacKay, Rob Nicholson, Robert Fonberg, Richard Fadden, John Forster, Walt Natynczyk and Tom Lawson (and their subordinates) thought they knew better and they tied up ships and cut vehicle fleets instead ... they were wrong.

The new CDS needs to be smarter. He doesn't own the CF, the country does, he _administers_ the CF on behalf of the Government of Canada (Stephen Harper, _Prop._)


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## OldSolduer

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Cutting the C2 _bloat_, trimming HQs, lowering staff ranks to much more reasonable levels and so on should have been, and still should be, priorities for MNDs, DMs and CDSs. That those simple steps, _encouraged_ - even _directed_ - by the head of government, were not taken is inexcusable, _in my opinion_.
> 
> The CF has too many officers.
> 
> The CF has far, far too many flag and general officers.
> 
> The CF has too many HQs.
> 
> Too many staff officers carry too much rank - it muddies the command/control relationship which should be clear and can be clear.
> 
> None of those problem, and they are, I suggest, very real problems that do material, measurable harm to the CF, are too hard to solve. They are all within the CDS' power to correct.



If my immediate superior gives me an order, I obey. If I don't I could find myself on the outside looking in. Why should the CDS and DM be exempt?


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## McG

To bring this back on topic, I have move much of the budget and resource management discussion to here: http://army.ca/forums/threads/82898/post-1360434.html#msg1360434


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## Kirkhill

Thanks.


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## McG

I see media reports that Gen Lawson decided to get out for fatigue of managing budget cuts, and LGen Day told the selection board that he did not want the job. Looks like a lot of things were moving behind the scenes.


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## upandatom

MCG said:
			
		

> I see media reports that Gen Lawson decided to get out for fatigue of managing budget cuts, and LGen Day told the selection board that he did not want the job. Looks like a lot of things were moving behind the scenes.



Would you want to be in that position? Honestly telling your guys to get rid of their staff? and save money but still keep a functional military? 
Thats like telling the contractor you hired to finish the basement not to use nails and screws but give him the rest of what he needs.


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## Scoobie Newbie

Thing is, we hav a surplus of nails and screws And not enough hammers and screw drivers.


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## OldSolduer

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Thing is, we hav a surplus of nails and screws And not enough hammers and screw drivers.



Bingo!


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## daftandbarmy

upandatom said:
			
		

> Would you want to be in that position? Honestly telling your guys to get rid of their staff? and save money but still keep a functional military?
> Thats like telling the contractor you hired to finish the basement not to use nails and screws but give him the rest of what he needs.



"And let it be noted that there is no more delicate matter to take in hand, nor more dangerous to conduct, nor more doubtful in its success, than to set up as a leader in the introduction of changes.  For he who innovates will have for his enemies all those who are well off under the existing order of things, and only the lukewarm supporters in those who might be better off under the new.   This lukewarm temper arises partly from the fear of adversaries who have the laws on their side and partly from the incredulity of mankind, who will never admit the merit of anything new, until they have seen it proved by the event." Machiavelli
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Prince


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