# Fallout Shelters



## Scratch_043 (26 Oct 2004)

I was watching a program on Television, and they were talking about the fallout shelters that were quote unquote 'secretly' built during the cold war, and then abbandoned in the early 90s.

My question is this:

               Would there be a possible use for these facilities/properties by the CF if it were to be turned over to the CF?

From my understanding, the one that was the worst kept secret, was about 40km from Ottawa, in Carp, Ontario, and was built to support some 500 officials, politicians, and civilians (all of whom were selected specificaly for one reason or another).

Anyone who knows anything about these shelters, let me know, I am interested in discovering the potential of these sites.

Cheers,
Nicholas P. Cressman


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## gun plumber (26 Oct 2004)

I know they use the bunker in Borden(The Definbunker)as a cadet area HQ and transient quaters(top level)and the lower levels is used by the Comms for something(secret squirell stuff no doubt!)


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## Scratch_043 (26 Oct 2004)

hmm, I thought the one in Carp was nicknamed the Deifenbunker, but I could be wrong.

that's good that they are at least using the space for something.


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## GrimRX (26 Oct 2004)

ToRN said:
			
		

> hmm, I thought the one in Carp was nicknamed the Deifenbunker, but I could be wrong.
> 
> that's good that they are at least using the space for something.



I believe that the entire line of bunkers that was built were called "Deifenbunkers."


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## Shec (26 Oct 2004)

The Diefenbunker in Carp is a now a Cold War museum:

http://www.diefenbunker.ca/


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## pbi (26 Oct 2004)

These sites were built by DND as National Survival facilities to permit regional military commanders and key Provincial/Federal govt agencies to survive a nuclear strike. The civvy govts were terrified to have anything to do with them as the idea of "we get to live-you peons fry" was political dynamite. I was told by the staff of the Shilo Provincial Warning Centre (as they ended up being called) that in its entire history, the Govt of Manitoba had never held an exercise in the facility.

With the fall of the USSR and the perceived decline in threat levels, these facilities were gradually sold off by DND, with the one in Borden being (I think..) the last one in DND hands.

Ironically, the planning and preparation for Op ABACUS in LFCA revealed the need for a secure, survivable, self-sufficient ops centre: we no longer had one as the military had gradually abandoned the idea. We seriously considered activating the "Hole" in Borden but in the end we fitted out a self-sufficient HQ over at the old Downsview site. Interestingly, the new LFCA HQ has an auxiliary power system and an eating facility: two things we identified as necessary to run an Ops HQ 24/7: both of which were features of the PWCs.

So, it's very unlikely that the Govt would now turn around and buy them back for DND: we dumped them in the first place. Ironic. Cheers.


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## Edward Campbell (26 Oct 2004)

Bunkers were a big deal back in the '50s and '60s.

Back in the '80s we had no further (reasonable) use for them as either emergency government or telecomm sites.   As structures they had, as I recall, some distinct maintenance cost advantages over convention, above ground buildings.   There was the big one a Carp* and several (five?) in places from Comox, BC to Debert Nova Scotia â â€œ also, I think, at Penhold, AB, Borden, ON, ValCarteir, QC.

They _morphed_ over the years into fairly modern, efficient (cost effective, anyway) telcomm centres â â€œ the signals people appeared to hate them but we, the plans and requirements staffs, who were always on the lookout for money, were loath to replace them and the construction engineers agreed with us.

Whatever happened to them all?   Are the ones in e.g. Borden still there?   They were supposed to be hard to destroy.

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* *Trivia* which I hope I have remembered correctly.   There was a teletype message relay _machine_ in Carp which was the very first working computer in the Canadian Forces -   Army, back then.   It was full of vacuum tubes - heat dissipation was a real problem, I guess.  Anyway it predated SAGE/BUIC by several years.  It was one of a pair; the other was landing aircraft in the UK as the world's first automated airport terminal control (I hope that's the right phrase) system.   Most senior people, including the CDS and cabinet ministers, were to sleep two to a room, on typical army barrack room bunk beds.   The PM, GG and, oddly enough, Governor of the Bank of Canada got single rooms.


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## Scratch_043 (26 Oct 2004)

Just wanted to add, that in the selection process for who got in to the shelters, one specific group that was excluded in it's entirity, was 'her magisty's loyal opposition', I guess the ruling party is the only one who counts :


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## aesop081 (26 Oct 2004)

The bunker in Valcartier is used as transit quarters.  At least it used to be , stayed in it a few times going from Pet to gagetown for exercises !!!  Got lost in it on a few occasions !!


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## PPCLI Guy (26 Oct 2004)

IIRC, the one in Shilo has been filled with water, and is used for diving...


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## chrisf (26 Oct 2004)

There's a bunker in shilo?


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## OLD F of S (26 Oct 2004)

As a junior tech I worked on that first computer, the tubes were mostly diodes and triodes
and maint consisted of testing each tube. By the time you finished the last tube it was time 
to start at the first tube again.


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## pbi (26 Oct 2004)

There is a bunker in Shilo but as PPCLI Guy states it was flooded (last year?) as "surplus to requirements". During OP ASSISTANCE (the Red River Flood in 97) our battaion staged from Wainwright to Altona via the Shilo site, and we were put up in the Hole: quite comfortable and well equipped, I thought, just as ROJ describes.

The bunkers were located within a couple of  hours of driving time of each Provincial Capital and of Ottawa, in order to be clear of the blast and initial radiation effects that were expected to occur in all of our major cities. The idea was that the regional military commander and key staff, as well as key Govt agencies, would evac to the bunker, survive the initiall strike, then coord the recovery operations or deal with any subsequent hostile actions.

When I first visited the Shilo Hole as a young officer attending Bde Officer Study in the mid 80's, we were given a tour by the staff (two Arty Sgts on retirement posting, IIRC...) It was obviously a backwater. Everything was just as it had orginally been laid out, but never really used as planned. They showed us the teletype machine mentioned earlier (it was still in use...) it was a vacuum tube and enamelled-steel monster that thumped and chattered and spat out ticker tape. Quite something. The strike maps of the city of Winnipeg were so out of date they were 1950's surveys.

IMHO today we need survivable HQs and a robust, wide bandwidth national military voice/data link totally independent of the civvy side so that in emergency (any emergency....) we can continue to function. For too long we have let our HQs and bases be vulnerable to disruption of power and telecomms. Maybe the Holes weren't such bad ideas? Cheers.


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## PPCLI Guy (26 Oct 2004)

> For too long we have let our HQs and bases be vulnerable to disruption of power and telecomms.



Uhuh.  During the TO blackout, we discovered that our shiny new building had great backup generators...that weren't connected to little things like the AOC!  It is all sorted now.  When the power was cut, eventually all of the cell phones started dying.  I was in Pet, and ended up as HQ Fwd, from a s-bag on the Mattawa.  Not fun.


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## chrisf (26 Oct 2004)

There's an extremely large mound that looks like there might be either a bunker or a fuel storage tank of some sort buried beneath behind the old artillery museum in shilo... other then that, I really can't imagine where the bunker would be, though I'm sure there are doubtlessly places on the base I haven't been.

Is it possible to give some sort of land-mark reference with regards to the location? As my curiosity has really been piqued here...


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## chrisf (27 Oct 2004)

And regarding a national communications link in case of emergency, while we no longer maintain a fixed/hardened network, we in the reserves sigs world are tasked with providing it in a mobile capacity.


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## pbi (27 Oct 2004)

Sounds familiar. When we were planning for ABACUS, LFCA was located in the civvy office buildng up on Yonge at Finch. It was almost completely non-survivable as well as being difficult to secure. We moved over to the old Base HQ at the Downsview site (already undergoing final close-out at that time as part of the sell-off of the old base). We built an ops centre in the old conference room and took over the other facilities for planning, briefing, etc. The Siggies built us a line/rad/SAT comms network,(God Bless the Jimmies!!, especially the CommRes without whom there would have been no emergency comms to our subordinate HQs) and we brought in a big diesel (sea-container type) to run the entire building. It was quite a bit of work but IMHO we were ready. In our AAR from ABACUS we identified that if the civvies will ever rely upon us in extremis, we must be op capable, not freezing and stumbling about in the dark,unable to communicate, no better off than Joe civvy down the street. Cheers.


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## speed400m (27 Oct 2004)

I have toured the Diefenbunker it was kinds spooky keeping in mind, what its purpose was for.  When I was there my guide told me that, when they were deciding to sell it they had had almost sold it too the hell angles with out knowing.  Also she told me stories about other bunkers being used for growing dope.  lol,  i could just seem the police trying to get into the place once use by the bikers.  lol

Before walking in there I expected more, to me it's seemed like a weak solution for a fallout shelter.  I mean it was only like about 20 feet in the ground.


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## chrisf (27 Oct 2004)

So yes to the mound behind the old artillery museum?


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## Cliffy433 (27 Oct 2004)

Can someone confirm the one in Shilo was filled in with H2O and is used for diving?  That'd be a sweet thing to do next time I'm there...

I thought it had been destroyed - because the mound that it used to be is currently flat.  It was my understanding they used a LOT of explosives to ensure it was destroyed...


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## Zoomie (27 Oct 2004)

The BC bunker is located on DND property in Nanaimo (1.5 hours north of Victoria) not Comox.  It has apparently been "decommissioned" <whatever that means>.  A google search found nothing on the subject.  I imagine that they simply welded shut all access points and left it as is.


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## Morpheus32 (27 Oct 2004)

The bunker in Shilo had the doors removed, the entranced bulldozed and filled in.   Now it is just a mound with no access to it.   Most items were moved from within and disposed of or junked.   It is gone.   

Jeff


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## HERC (27 Oct 2004)

In addition to the BC bunker Zoomie mentioned in Nanaimo, there was/is another just outside of Nanoose Bay.   As you drove on the highway heading towards Parksville and climbed the small hill after the Petro-Can there was an antenna farm/transmitter site on the right hand side of the highway.   There was a bunker here as well.   It was utilized mainly for communications and may still be in service.   Does anyone know?

I spent a couple of months in the bunker in Nanaimo and it was very strange.   Not knowing what the weather was like outsiide.   Night became day and vice versa.   The food was alright but we seldom ate in the bunker.   Most meals were eaten at the camp mess hall.   We had a pitch and putt set up on the roof/grass of the bunker and used different vents, etc as hole markers.   I remember one particular night of partying down at the Tally Ho or some other fine Nanaimo establishment and coming back and putting a real estate for sale sign on top of the bunker at the entrance.   Maybe they should have sold it?

Something I vividly remember about the Provincial Warning Centres were the maps on the walls showing fallout patterns and blast areas of differenct nuclear weapon yields.   Very haunting.   I could never figure out why they didn't build the bunker in Victoria were the Provincial government is located.   Any insight?

I remember seeing some of the tubes in the transmitters back in the early eighties.   I hope they've been changed to solid state at least by now.


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## garb811 (27 Oct 2004)

As previously stated, the bunkers were built outside the immediate effects zones of any weapons targeted at the cities.   The theory being, I guess, that a second weapon wouldn't be wasted targetting the bunker which were designed to withstand pretty much anything but a direct hit, although most of the provincial bunkers weren't constructed to protect from the blast.

The original plan was to establish a minimum of two bunkers in each province for redundancy but this obviously didn't happen.   Alberta's was located in Penhold and during the disposal process a farmer was the only one who put a bid in, I think it was in the neighbourhood of $100k, with his plan being to grow mushrooms in it...this was the one which generated the concern about a OMG getting their hands on it and the deal never went through and the entire disposal process for those not on still active bases was re-evaluated.   A company also put in a bid to buy it for the legalized pot grow op but this never came about either and I'm pretty sure it's been flattened.

Aside from Carp, there was another bunker, called X bunker I believe, out by Perth which was designed as the Comms transmission site for Carp and they did a pretty major buried cabling job for those days to connect the two.   I dated a girl who had been posted to Carp back when they still assigned quarters there for the single folk.   Interesting tales of people who became trolls because they never ventured out...   I was there on visits while it was still operational and it was quite the place, knew most of the MPs posted there at the time as well but by that point nobody was allowed to have quarters there although the kitchen was still operational and they did, on occasion, have people in overnight.   If you're ever in Ottawa and you get the chance, I highly recommend the short drive to Carp for the tour.   They've got a good story about the Soviet Defence attache coming out for a look since it was just within their allowed radius of travel and they found out what was up because of newspaper coverage.


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## chrisf (27 Oct 2004)

On a side note... Newfoundland never had a provincial bunker... they were going to build one, but it's construction was delayed, and then never occured...

The provincial warning centre was initially located in (Believe it or not) an abandoned rubber boot factory (So chosen because it was far enough away from the capital, and the walls were heavy enough concrete that it would have been able to survive a nuclear attack...

The warning centre was later moved into the HQ building in CFS St. John's (The same building where the battle of the atlantic was planned).

Permenent facilities were constructed for the warning centre, an above ground concrete building, but never occupied because of the end of the cold war.


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## bwarden (5 Oct 2007)

We just moved into a brand new house built right next to the DND land where I'm hearing the bunker is located.  I'd love to chat with anyone else who has spent time there.  Very fascinating and intriguing to see this forbidden land behind a barbed wire fence in view from our home!


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## TN2IC (5 Oct 2007)

And where do you live now?


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## bwarden (5 Oct 2007)

We live just off of College Drive between the Nanaimo Parkway and Westwood lake.  Our cul de sac backs onto DND land.  Were you ever at the bunker or on the DND land?


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## TN2IC (5 Oct 2007)

bwarden said:
			
		

> We live just off of College Drive between the Nanaimo Parkway and Westwood lake.  Our cul de sac backs onto DND land.  Were you ever at the bunker or on the DND land?



That Classfield Information...


No just kidding. I honestly havn't step foot in BC. I'm a Maritimer. Only place west we go is to Fort McMoney, in Alberta.


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## bwarden (5 Oct 2007)

such a tease!


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## bily052 (5 Oct 2007)

During the "Cold War" period every Province had what was known as "Provincial Warning Centers (PWC)."  Beside the big National Control bunker in Carp there was 6 bunkers built.  One in each of the following provinces:  1.  Nova Scotia, 2. Quebec, 3. Ontario, 4. Manitoba, 5. Alberta and 6. British Columbia.  Every other Provinces' PWC were housed normally within a government bldg.
Each bunker complex was actually 2 bunkers.  The main bunker was the largest housing the Provincial Premier and officials as well as reps from the National Banks (complete with a stock of gold), CBC, and various other organizations.  The second bunker was used as the communications transmitter site.  In Ontario the main bunker was in Borden with the transmitter site about 10km short of Wasaga Beach.  There was also a third component that was kept closer to the main bunker.  An antenna farm or the receiver site was usually less than 10km from the main bunker.  

The bunker in Borden has had the main tunnel bulldozed with the remainder left virtually in tact.  The bunker itself was totally self sufficient.  Having enough food and water to sustain all inhabitants for a prolonged period of time.  There was 2 very large electrical generators (the size of small locomotives) that I believe are still underground just needing a tune up and a boost to get going.

I worked in Borden for a couple of years.  Pretty cool nonetheless....


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## Eland (7 Oct 2007)

AES Op - Jr said:
			
		

> <snip>
> 
> The bunker in Borden has had the main tunnel bulldozed with the remainder left virtually in tact.  The bunker itself was totally self sufficient.  Having enough food and water to sustain all inhabitants for a prolonged period of time.  There was 2 very large electrical generators (the size of small locomotives) that I believe are still underground just needing a tune up and a boost to get going.
> 
> I worked in Borden for a couple of years.  Pretty cool nonetheless....



An uncle of mine was posted to Borden twice in his military career. When I was a kid he told me once he had to go into the bunker a few times and stay there for a couple days as part of an exercise. It was chilling, though, to hear that my aunt and cousins would not be able to accompany him in the event of a real emergency. The impression I had at the time that was that my uncle's family would be more or less on their own if the balloon went up. Although I suspect now that that was not wholly true. Arrangements would likely have been made to evacuate military families to a safe place in an emergency - if time permitted.

I have heard rumours that there exists a bunker somewhere near or just outside of Capreol, Ontario buried deep in the Canadian Shield. It was supposedly built as a replacement for the bunker at CFS Carp. I've also heard that the Valcartier facility remains fully operational. Anyone got any info to confirm or refute the rumour?

When I served with 'C' Squadron 1st Hussars ('79 ~ '81), the armoury was located in the basement of the Sarnia, Ontario postal building. Interestingly enough, the entire basement/armoury seemed to be configured as a fallout shelter of sorts - but not a hardened one. Part of the basement was hived off from the armoury portion and had rooms that looked like they were intended for storage - of what, I'm not certain. I never went into any of these rooms, and no one else I knew did either. There was no clear indication that this part of the basement was in use by either Canada Post, the regiment, or any other government department located in the building.

The parade square alone was large enough to accommodate many cots to be set up - probably 50 to 60 at minimum. 

When going down the stairwell that led into the armoury, you could see a very large generator set located to your left and below, walled in by a cage-like structure. This was interesting to see, considering that the postal building in Sarnia was not a sorting plant, and no critical government departments were located there, either. 

My best guess, and a wild one at that, is that the armoury was set up during the days of the National Survival system to house the local Militia during a crisis. Because the armoury didn't offer any definite indication that it was in fact also a fallout shelter, it seemed somehow like a partly-finished project. Maybe further development of the basement-cum-fallout-shelter was abandoned after the National Survival project ended. Or all of the things I've surmised could just be an overactive imagination at work. 

By the way, I have toured the Diefenbunker museum at Carp. Very interesting piece of Cold War arcana. I can see why it fell into disuse - not only because of the end of the Soviet nuclear threat, but also the reality that Russian ICBM's by the early 70s were accurate enough to score a direct hit, or come so close as to render the facility non-functional.


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## a78jumper (8 Oct 2007)

I have been in the one in Borden, they used to call it "the Hole" for a CFC CPX ca 1989. And in 1994/95 I was directly involved with the closeout of the Carp facility from a Supply perspective, it was the largest of the lot with a double bed for both the PM and the GG as presumeably they would have also brought their spouses. The Log O had moved into the PM's office!!  That same year I also had occasion to visit the one in Debert which was being used by the Comm Area HQ. That was one wasted visit all the way from Ottawa. 

The one in Penhold had been closed out shortly before I got to what had been CFCCHQ. That was the only real justification for keeping that base open all those years after flying ceased there late 1960s.

All were very expensive to maintain and were more or less obsolete from the day they opened given the increased accuracy of ICBM warheads from the 1960s onwards.

As far as armouries go, I believe the one in Sault Ste Marie was constructed with global thermonuclear war in mind, or so I was told when I was there in 1998.


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## larry Strong (8 Oct 2007)

The bunker in Penhold is gone. it was totally removed...took the better part of a summer to destroy it.


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## Emenince Grise (8 Oct 2007)

I did a tour of military museums in the Ottawa Valley this past summer, including the Diefenbunker at Carp. It's certainly worth the trip and the price of admission is a bargain. The staff are knowledgeable and quite fun, actually. And they have almost all of the info right. They could not, however, say much of what the computers at Carp actually did. There is more info in this thread about that than they could tell you on the tour! For some reason, no photos are allowed inside the Diefenbunker. They also have a DVD available in their gift shop that is the official Army Signals film of the construction of the Carp bunker. Amazing to see that the whole thing is electrically bonded and a complete Faraday Cage! On thing they also mentioned was the COG site at Kemptville, which was above ground. The Perth site was also mentioned in the tour. 

Perhaps the most bizarre was the dig out plan in case of a nuclear hit. There were two escape tunnels built into the hill. Private Bloggins would be expected to trigger the escape trap and clamber up the tunnel, walk around to the south wall, where a bulldozer (which would have survived the nuclear strike somehow) would be waiting in operating condition. Bloggins would then be expected to dig out the bunker entrance.


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## honestyrules (8 Oct 2007)

> I've also heard that the Valcartier facility remains fully operational. Anyone got any info to confirm or refute the rumour?



Yes it's used as transient quarters...


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## geo (8 Oct 2007)

Valcartier bunker being fully functional...... Yeah - sort of.
It is being used as transient quarters - though there have been several fires over the years.
A waste of good money if you ask me.... cheaper to shut er down & spend the maintenance cash to build some better transient quarters.


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## childs56 (8 Oct 2007)

The bunker in Nanaimo had the doors welded shut and then filled over with gravel. The hump of the bunker has been fenced in. The land around it has been handed to the Natives. 
The bunker in Nanoose on the hill has had doors welded shut and again covered over with dirt. Not sure who manages the land.


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## geo (8 Oct 2007)

CTD,
The problem I see with just welding the doors shut is that, regardless of who ultimately takes control of the site & manages the property, let one person get injured inside sometime in the future & guess who will be on the hook for negligently discharged their duty


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## childs56 (8 Oct 2007)

You would either have to spend a few days digging the dirt out or use a machine to do it. 
They backfilled the entrances.
Plus DND still manages the area surrounding the bunkers.


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## geo (9 Oct 2007)

Heh.... am certain that it would make a tremendous demolition exercise to permanently put them out of action.

Dirt & Welds is good enough for a short period of time.  If the Gov't decides to dispose of the property, these bunkers will continue to pose a threat to some village idiot interested in exploring old government "secret" establishments.


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## Air Force Chief Clerk (17 Sep 2011)

Having read the posts on "bunkers" in the military, I worked as Chief Clerk in the Penhold (743 Comm Sqn 1983-85) and Nanaimo (740 Comm Sqn 1988 - 92) bunkers. In July 1992, my wife (a Tel Tech) was posted to the Carp bunker and I had a person tour of that one.

The bunkers both in Nanaimo and Penhold are totally gone!! Don't know how they did that but it was a good trick! There were two huge generators which kicked in automatically when the power was cut. It played hell with my computer when that happened!!


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## Edward Campbell (17 Sep 2011)

The comms bunkers were designed in the 1950s and built in the '60s as part of a Canadian Army project called _Bridge_ and they were, perforce, known as _Bridge Sites_. The centrepiece of Project Bridge was a computer, at Carp, what would, for the first time in Canada, provide automatic telegraph (teletype) routing for DND - this was a pioneering step in the military's use of computers, on a par with the RCAF's SAGE (Semi Automated Ground Environment)/BUIC (Back Up Interceptor Control) system that were designed and built in the same era. 

The big computer - a feeble giant compared to anything on your desktop today - in Carp was one of the few members of a family of UK machines that were, originally, designed for airport terminal approach control.

Project Bridge then formed the backbone for the _integrated_ Canadian Forces Communications System, which became Communications Command which became ...

The first generation computer at Carp, and its eventual successors, replaced dozens, then many hundreds of TelOps manning staffing old fashioned, slow and error prone torn tape relay stations.






A torn tape relay station


The "new" telegraph system was mated, in the same era, with a new, leased automatic telephone system that replaced the old manual switchboards.





A manual switchboard


The army field force caught up, with automatically switched systems, about 20 years later, at the end of the 1970s.


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## HollywoodCowboy (18 Sep 2011)

During the ICE storm we bivved in a bunker located in Kemptville.
My parents home has a shelter, the floor of the basement is the roof of the shelter, my dad hangs all his meats in there and stores all the home made wine lol.


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