# Most dreadful PT experience



## Lumber (9 Mar 2009)

Now, I hope most people actually enjoy physical training, because I don't want this to turn into a b**** session, but I was wondering what was your worst, most miserable, most dreadful PT session? Was it the weather? Time of day? A particularly vengeful and unhappy PT instructor? Share your stories. This is not about whinning, its about sharing in each other's misery.  ;D

For myself, the worst was this January. It was a wednesday morning, around 0630. It was -10C outside, it was snowing, there was already half a foot or more of snow on the ground, and there was black ice under all that snow. As we made our way around the campus and made tracks in the snow, that black ice started to reveal itself, and the run got more and more jolly as we made consecutive tours.


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## Signalman150 (9 Mar 2009)

Hah!  This one's easy.  

I was sent (as a plug reservist) to the Airborne Regiment during Op GamesCan in 1976.  I'd only been with them about a week, and we had sports parade--soccer. I wasn't a strong soccer player, but I thought I was acquitting myself rather well, right up until the moment one of those jumper types kicked a line-drive (for lack of a better term) right up the middle of the field and straight into my knackers.  I lay on the field for about five minutes in a fetal position, completely ignored (and rightfully so) by everyone else.  Never forgot to wear a can after that.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Mar 2009)

It started with having to put on my PT gear.





That's it ushup:


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## George Wallace (9 Mar 2009)

This topic has been moved to Radio Chatter because it doesn't fit into Training at all.  It is not a constructive topic, and one more fitting for this location.

http://Forums.Army.ca/forums/threads/84546.0


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## benny88 (9 Mar 2009)

The morning after our end of course party on IAP- 2007.  :crybaby:


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## chris_log (9 Mar 2009)

Being at the gym at the same time as lululemon got popular with the "muffin top brigade".


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## RHFC_piper (9 Mar 2009)

I have a tie between two PT sessions;

1) QL3, LFCATC Meaford (1999). Some band showed up at the JRs mess about half way through the course, and although we really didn't deserve the time off, the CoC felt it only fair that we be allowed to attend.  The majority of my course were 19+ (weekend warriors), so we drank... a lot.  We saw our staff there, so we figured they would be too tanked to run us the next day (it had happened once before - marching NCO didn't show up for PT, Breakfast or our first class.).  So we drank more.
When the concert was over, the duty staff came around to clear everyone out... the Duty Sgt was one of our staff... he was very upset to have to be on duty.  Picture a large, ex-airborne, bald Irish angry man who liked to run.
We formed up for PT at the normal time and the first words out of his mouth were; "we're not done until you puke."  Which was immediately followed by a soldier, on the parade square, turning about in place an vomiting; "are we done Sarge?" he asked... then we ran down to Gully Range and back... twice to torque the stragglers.

2) TF3-06, workup. After 6 weeks at CMTC Wainwright we returned to Petawawa... having barely done PT the entire time we were there...  The Sarge decided the sand hills behind the RCD building would be the best for working out the IMPs... so we did some circuits up and down the hill, doing push ups at the bottom and sit ups at the top.  We did this for about an hour... which isn't that bad, but it was worsened by two things; 1. We were drinking the night before in the shacks. 2. Mosquito's and black flies... I inhaled a lot of them... then puked... a lot.
Before that, I had not puked on PT since the first story.



iper:


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## RCR Grunt (9 Mar 2009)

RHFC Piper's Meaford stories have reminded me...

Meaford, Battleschool, Spring 2000 ... "Long lunch today fella's, not too much planned for the afternoon... The Spaghetti looks good today!" exclaims the marching NCO.  


An hour and a half and two plates of spaghetti later back in the shacks...

"PT KIT, FORMED UP OUTSIDE, 5 MINUTES!  WE'RE GOING FOR A 'LIGHT' RUN!!" barked another meaner looking NCO.  I think that pile of vomit stayed in front of the HQ building until the end of my course.  Good times.

When I first saw "Band of Brothers," I swore they took that scene from my course.  Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks have yet to send me my royalties cheque.

As for drunken NCO's and PT ... ours were more "dedicated," they didn't just skip PT, that wouldn't be fair to the candidates!  One morning, 0500, we're formed up waiting for the NCO to show up and take us on our run.  He shows, he stinks like booze, I mean bad.  But, no matter, we run.  This morning we are running particularly fast, and the NCO is particularly vocal about keeping up.  About a klick into our 5km run, another NCO suddenly appears out of the bushes, being very vocal as well.  Just as suddenly, the oriiginal NCO dissapears into the woods.  I swore I heard vomiting noises but was too concerned with trying to keep up to really notice.  This continued, with a ninja like switch every km or so, until we finish our run.  I think we went through every NCO on the course that morning.  Clever bastards.


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## CorporalMajor (10 Mar 2009)

Doing the PWT-3 in snow up to my waist. 

Or that time at school during rugby practice, we ran backwards in circles in the gym, and I tripped over something, landed straight on my back, and had three very large people fall right on top of me. 

Both were horrible experiences I never will forget.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Mar 2009)

Anything involving log or stretcher races, rope climbing or mud runs (shuddering in horror now at the mere thought...),


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## Sythen (10 Mar 2009)

Stretcher PT with a 5 man section and an officer who wouldn't let us carry them on our shoulders... And anything involving the sand hills behind the RCD building.. Doesn't matter how fit I get, those hills destroy me lol


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## George Wallace (10 Mar 2009)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Stretcher PT with a 5 man section and an officer who wouldn't let us carry them on our shoulders... And anything involving the sand hills behind the RCD building.. Doesn't matter how fit I get, those hills destroy me lol



Have you tried Wind Sprints down at Black Bear Beach........out in the river about fifteen meters?   Welcome to Recce Sqn.   :


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## Kat Stevens (10 Mar 2009)

4CER Sup Sqn, 89ish.  To the Rod and Gun Club, and back, FFO and TOPP High... in July.


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## George Wallace (10 Mar 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> 4CER Sup Sqn, 89ish.  To the Rod and Gun Club, and back, FFO and TOPP High... in July.



Ewwwww!   Did that outside of Paarsburg doing a NBC Recce.  That sucks.


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## Kat Stevens (10 Mar 2009)

And the OC who thought it up had a convenient dental cleaning that morning...leading from the desk.  Thank God those days are pretty much over.


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## aesop081 (10 Mar 2009)

The "goose shit shuffle" down the 2 CER lines............


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## TN2IC (10 Mar 2009)

On a QL3... they formed up in 3 ranks waiting for the staff to show up to take them for a run. Well no one show up.. until the O.C. show up. She said she"ll be back and if the staff didn't show up the would do a run with her. She walk away.. out of site. And this one smart arse..  had a hate for Physical Training back then. So he went in front of the formation and dismiss the course back into their rooms. 


 ;D

The course shirt motto was "We drive trucks, not the body."


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## dangerboy (10 Mar 2009)

One of the most dreadful experiences was not the actual PT but the lead up to it.  When 2 PPCLI was stationed in Winnipeg we used to have morning parades on the parade square, no mater what the weather.  So we would be standing there just freezing while they went through the whole morning routine. RSM had the CSM's up front getting numbers then we would fall in the officers the DCO would take over then the CO would take over.  9 times out of 10 all the CO would say is "Company Commanders carry on" then the Coy Comd would say "Pl Comd carry on".  At least that is what I think they said, I was in Coy HQ and we formed up at the rear of the Coy so all we could here is the traffic on route 90 and just did what the Pl ahead of us did.


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## CorporalMajor (10 Mar 2009)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Stretcher PT with a 5 man section and an officer who wouldn't let us carry them on our shoulders... And anything involving the sand hills behind the RCD building.. Doesn't matter how fit I get, those hills destroy me lol


I remember those, I ran up that thing (and the beach) a few times..


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## PMedMoe (11 Mar 2009)

Oh yeah, the sand hills.....run up, run down, run up backwards, carry a stretcher (with a person) on it up......lots of opportunity for injuries.


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## Mike Baker (11 Mar 2009)

Mr Plow said:
			
		

> And this one smart arse.



Haha was this you??


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## the_girlfirend (11 Mar 2009)

Hey!

With all these lovely vomiting stories... I have to admit... vomiting is not my favorite activity...  ;D
Should I expect to vomit often if I join the military?  :-X


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Mar 2009)

the_girlfirend said:
			
		

> Hey!
> 
> With all these lovely vomiting stories... I have to admit... vomiting is not my favorite activity...  ;D
> Should I expect to vomit often if I join the military?  :-X



That depends on what IMPs you can/can't handle...

ham omlette anyone??


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## NCRCrow (11 Mar 2009)

mine was when the Battalion was formed up for PT outside and me in the taxi coming in from a night of debauchery...late...and the CSM scowling at me. Talk about embarrassing.

only 20 extras at HQ. I may be laughing when I am writing this now but I wasn't then.


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Mar 2009)

The one that comes to my mind goes like this:

2001 ARTS down in a little camp in the Valley.  For some reason, the ARTS CO and RSM came up with a directive that there would be NO running during morning PT on any of the courses (too many people might get hurt. No joke.)

In the abscence of our Crse O, I attended a Coy O Gp where this was passed down.  I was in disbelief and passed it onto the Crse O when he arrived the same week as my Instr's on Monday morning when I briefed him up on all the stuff from the previous week.  

That afternoon, he came back from lunch to tell me that one of the Inf Crse staffs had gone out on a run that morning and were spotted by someone from the headshed.  The Crse O hadn't ordered them to, they didn't have troops on the ground yet, they just..went for a run.

The Crse O had a big shite taken over him and did 17 extras IIRC for...running with his Inf NCOs and WO.

We argued the point to our CSM that the T in PT meant trg, and any who needed trg 'walking' shouldn't be on a Cmbt Arms QL3 crse.  

PT was referred to as "personal time" by most of us for the duration of that summer.


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## OldSolduer (11 Mar 2009)

From DangerBoy:
"One of the most dreadful experiences was not the actual PT but the lead up to it.  When 2 PPCLI was stationed in Winnipeg we used to have morning parades on the parade square, no mater what the weather.  So we would be standing there just freezing while they went through the whole morning routine. RSM had the CSM's up front getting numbers then we would fall in the officers the DCO would take over then the CO would take over.  9 times out of 10 all the CO would say is "Company Commanders carry on" then the Coy Comd would say "Pl Comd carry on".  At least that is what I think they said, I was in Coy HQ and we formed up at the rear of the Coy so all we could here is the traffic on route 90 and just did what the Pl ahead of us did."

I was with Dangerboy during the majority of those parades. Hateful having to do PT in -30C weather.


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## off126 (11 Mar 2009)

Hah, easy, though it wasn't even a PT session.

Trench week on the SQ portion of my DP-1 Infantry at WATC, its around noon on the Thursday (I think), its about 40 degrees C and 1 Section is running on an hour of sleep (in the middle of which we got jacked up for something or other, I dunno, I slept through it apparently  ;D) for the entire week. Our C6 trench was found unsatisfactory by the good Sgt, so its torn down. He also finds our level of motivation lacking, so he informs us that we are to remove all of the sandbags from the C6 trench area, pile them up nice and neat and then run them up a hill about 100m away. And he did mean run (I mean shuffle!  ;D), if someone stopped, we'd have to start all over. So we moved them, all 50 (give or take a dozen, probably give) of them, no one stopped running, because we knew he meant it. He then asked us who had the retarded idea of stashing all of our sandbags on top of a stupid hill, so without further instruction we went and got them all back, and no one stopped running.

Screw sitting around at a table, talking about stuff, that was the most significant team-building experience I`ve had so far, no one wanted to let the section down.

And lets just say that the coyotes had a feast of semi-digested lunch IMPs that night  ;D


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## Timex (11 Mar 2009)

There's a couple I remember most of all. One was doing the fireman's carry up Zipperhead Hill. It wasn't so bad doing the carrying but the constant blow to the nads whilst being the "carried" was numbing. The other one was during a warm up prior to a run on my basic para. Our PI asked me "if we did much PT in EME" sensing something bad was about to happen I said no. He replied with "Yeah it shows" ouch, those words had the same effect as being carried up the hill.


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## CorporalMajor (11 Mar 2009)

Timex said:
			
		

> There's a couple I remember most of all. One was doing the fireman's carry up Zipperhead Hill. It wasn't so bad doing the carrying but the constant blow to the nads whilst being the "carried" was numbing.


I know exactly what you mean and it is total balls.    

(Sorry for the pun).  Carrying someone is fine, having their leg or rifle barrel strike your danger zone all the time isn't fine.


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## NCRCrow (11 Mar 2009)

anybody have to go for a Number 2 during PT and have to run up ahead and come out of the woods with one sock?
this happened to a friend of mine on Brindle road in Petawawa during his ISCC............ :


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## CorporalMajor (11 Mar 2009)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> anybody have to go for a Number 2 during PT and have to run up ahead and come out of the woods with one sock?
> this happened to a friend of mine on Brindle road in Petawawa during his ISCC............ :


I has to go, but I always held it in. 

One time it was a bit of a struggle.  Thank god I kept it.


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## George Wallace (11 Mar 2009)

Timex said:
			
		

> ......One was doing the fireman's carry up Zipperhead Hill.



I don't remember many hills in Edmonton.


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## 2 Cdo (11 Mar 2009)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> From DangerBoy:
> "One of the most dreadful experiences was not the actual PT but the lead up to it.  When 2 PPCLI was stationed in Winnipeg we used to have morning parades on the parade square, no mater what the weather.  So we would be standing there just freezing while they went through the whole morning routine. RSM had the CSM's up front getting numbers then we would fall in the officers the DCO would take over then the CO would take over.  9 times out of 10 all the CO would say is "Company Commanders carry on" then the Coy Comd would say "Pl Comd carry on".  At least that is what I think they said, I was in Coy HQ and we formed up at the rear of the Coy so all we could here is the traffic on route 90 and just did what the Pl ahead of us did."
> 
> I was with Dangerboy during the majority of those parades. Hateful having to do PT in -30C weather.



Who can forget those days! Dress for the parade and sweat like a pig during PT thus freezing or dress for PT and do all your freezing before PT. Wonderful days they were, it only took a new CO to start holding winter PT parades in the drill hall saving us from freezing prior to PT. 
Let's not even talk about vehicle exhaust at -35!


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## RCR Grunt (11 Mar 2009)

the_girlfirend said:
			
		

> Hey!
> 
> With all these lovely vomiting stories... I have to admit... vomiting is not my favorite activity...  ;D
> Should I expect to vomit often if I join the military?  :-X



Don't worry, after a while you get good at it!   ;D


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## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2009)

Grunt became an Expert  ;D

I remember Grunt oh how I remember LMAO


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## RCR Grunt (11 Mar 2009)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Grunt became an Expert  ;D
> 
> I remember Grunt oh how I remember LMAO



I know you do.  On our QL3, it was said "It's not PT unless Pte Anyone's Grunt pukes!"

Every goddammed morning.


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## TN2IC (11 Mar 2009)

FrostyHazard said:
			
		

> Haha was this you??




I don't kiss and tell.


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## GGHG_Cadet (11 Mar 2009)

Lumber said:
			
		

> For myself, the worst was this January. It was a wednesday morning, around 0630. It was -10C outside, it was snowing, there was already half a foot or more of snow on the ground, and there was black ice under all that snow. As we made our way around the campus and made tracks in the snow, that black ice started to reveal itself, and the run got more and more jolly as we made consecutive tours.



Today wasn't much better! Do they check the weather channel for the worst weather possible before they schedule Dcdts PT?!


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## HItorMiss (11 Mar 2009)

Hey Grunt remember learning the drills on Carl G  :crybaby:


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## RCR Grunt (11 Mar 2009)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> Hey Grunt remember learning the drills on Carl G  :crybaby:



... I don't want to talk about it... now where are my head-space and timing meds.


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## CorporalMajor (12 Mar 2009)

the_girlfirend said:
			
		

> Hey!
> 
> With all these lovely vomiting stories... I have to admit... vomiting is not my favorite activity...  ;D
> Should I expect to vomit often if I join the military?  :-X


That depends on what kind of shape you're in.  I joined completely out of shape and weak, and I was at the mercy of some 2CER juniors in Pet on my Basic.  The first day at PT I puked, but eventually (as soon as two weeks later) I kept up.  That was 3 years back.  Today if I'm not sweating and slightly strained after a workout, I don't feel right.  Hell I can even do 40 pushups now.  You'll see what I mean.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Mar 2009)

Doing the SSF Ironman back in 1985 whoops, 1986. :-[
 I was finishing up my 10 month French course, and my unit was in Cypress so there was no 2RCHA representation in the race, and that wouldn't do. So, thinking I hadn't got that far out of shape sitting in class and, if I just pad up my rucksack like last time, I should be OK was not exactly true.

The frame wore away any skin it came in contact with on my lower back and for about a month if I bent over, or even leaned forward, I would break open this rucksack-wide scab causing a hard-to-look-cool stain on the back of my shirts.


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## time expired (12 Mar 2009)

A story from the other side of the wire.I was a PTI with the
QORofC depot in the early 60s,it was a beautiful Alberta winter
morning,20 below in brilliant sunshine,recruits whining about it
being too cold to do our endurance run.As this happened every
time it went below zero,and usually the same guys doing the
whingeing,I allowed that it was too cold and ordered them to 
put on their greatcoats we then ran the Sarcee triangle in our
greatcoats,nobody was cold.Never had a complaint about the
cold again.That was the old Army and I suppose now I would 
have been accused of infringement of their human rights and
maybe torture, in this new enlightened millennium.
                                       Regards


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## ARMY_101 (12 Mar 2009)

Coming back from an exercise during our DP1 in Meaford: everyone's been up for three days doing FOB drills, offensive attacks, patrols, and trench positions.  We finally pack up and begin our 5km ruck back to base with all of our kit.  Half of our staff are rucking with us, while the other half got a ride back in one of the MilCots.  Finally getting back to base, everyone's tanked but glad we were able to get through the exercise.  Everyone grabs an IMP and begins cleaning their weapons.

It's time for a staff change.  Remember the staff who got a ride?  They've been sleeping for the past hour and a half and can't possibly imagine why they're seeing some tired soldiers cleaning their weapons.  Finally one of them gets so pissed off that he gets everyone's weapons down, everyone gets back into full FFO, and we get to have a gauntlet of sprints, push-ups, sit-ups, and circuits.  Boy did that hurt


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## CorporalMajor (12 Mar 2009)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Coming back from an exercise during our DP1 in Meaford: everyone's been up for three days doing FOB drills, offensive attacks, patrols, and trench positions.  We finally pack up and begin our 5km ruck back to base with all of our kit.  Half of our staff are rucking with us, while the other half got a ride back in one of the MilCots.  Finally getting back to base, everyone's tanked but glad we were able to get through the exercise.  Everyone grabs an IMP and begins cleaning their weapons.
> 
> It's time for a staff change.  Remember the staff who got a ride?  They've been sleeping for the past hour and a half and can't possibly imagine why they're seeing some tired soldiers cleaning their weapons.  Finally one of them gets so pissed off that he gets everyone's weapons down, everyone gets back into full FFO, and we get to have a gauntlet of sprints, push-ups, sit-ups, and circuits.  Boy did that hurt



Did you not get the memo.  Common sense is frowned upon in the Army.  So is leadership by example, by the looks of that.  Unless they were with you guys on the march the whole time, they should worry about something else and bugger off, and since they didn't, they had no place doing that.. It's one of the principles of leadership:  Share the burden, share the workload.


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## Thompson_JM (12 Mar 2009)

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Coming back from an exercise during our DP1 in Meaford: everyone's been up for three days doing FOB drills, offensive attacks, patrols, and trench positions.  We finally pack up and begin our 5km ruck back to base with all of our kit.  Half of our staff are rucking with us, while the other half got a ride back in one of the MilCots.  Finally getting back to base, everyone's tanked but glad we were able to get through the exercise.  Everyone grabs an IMP and begins cleaning their weapons.
> 
> It's time for a staff change.  Remember the staff who got a ride?  They've been sleeping for the past hour and a half and can't possibly imagine why they're seeing some tired soldiers cleaning their weapons.  Finally one of them gets so pissed off that he gets everyone's weapons down, everyone gets back into full FFO, and we get to have a gauntlet of sprints, push-ups, sit-ups, and circuits.  Boy did that hurt



I'm with CorporalMajor on this one... those staff sound like the typical Idiot "We wanna be super hardcore" types that unfortunatly seem to breed in meaford and similar places....


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## CorporalMajor (12 Mar 2009)

Tommy said:
			
		

> I'm with CorporalMajor on this one... those staff sound like the typical Idiot "We wanna be super hardcore" types that unfortunatly seem to breed in meaford and similar places....


I was on a Meaford Res-staffed SQ and while some of them were good, the other half were exactly that, as if they have something to prove to us.  Unfortunately they didn't know we don't really care about what they had to prove, and that it was essentially a show.  

Everyone knows it's a challenging course, but for some reason, some don't appreciate the "do your job well, stay out of trouble and we will leave you alone" policy that good instructors use.  On SQ's ex, you have already been three days with little sleep, received some form of discipline you genuinely deserved, ate garbage and have been hauling shit on your back nearly every step of the way.  you're playing Army, so that's fair enough. 

So after that, what does playing "hardass" show?  There's something WAY better called "quiet professionalism" and "self control" which is much more common in those god-sent reg force instructors - something not often seen in these instructors who jack people up for nothing. This is a learning experience:  Being shouted at does not make you better at your craft, unless there's a valuable lesson being taught with it.

I have already pledged to myself that I won't bitch at my subordinates unless 1) I'm in a position to, having been through the same hurdles 2) they genuinely screwed up.  I also don't believe in making things harder than they have to be for the sake of itself, because it's stupid, and it makes you very difficult to respect.  Thankfully for some unnamed individuals, I'm not dealing with them again.


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## davidk (12 Mar 2009)

CorporalMajor said:
			
		

> So after that, what does playing "hardass" show?  There's something WAY better called "quiet professionalism" and "self control" which is much more common in those god-sent reg force instructors - something not often seen in these instructors who jack people up for nothing. This is a learning experience:  Being shouted at does not make you better at your craft, unless there's a valuable lesson being taught with it.



Don't be so quick to generalize. Your profile says you've been in for two and a half years. How many courses have you seen from an objective [read: not a candidate at the time] point of view? There are good and bad ways of teaching (and, by extension, running pt) that can be found in both the regs and the reserves. I've seen borderline abusive pt sessions , and what you call "quiet professionalism" and "self-control" by instructors from both components. Don't let this fall into another Regs vs. res thread, and stick to the topic at hand.


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## 2 Cdo (12 Mar 2009)

Tommy said:
			
		

> I'm with CorporalMajor on this one... those staff sound like the typical Idiot "We wanna be super hardcore" types that unfortunatly seem to breed in meaford and similar places....



Sounds like a lot of whining here. Unless courses have changed tremendously in the last few years, the DS tends to get more sleep than candidates. The reasoning behind it is that they are more alert than you whilst training you. A little extra PT at opportune times never killed anyone and I found it to be a unifying tool for courses/sections whatever. In fact in 28 years of experience I find the candidates that bitch the most about "hardcore" instructors were usually the sub-par, bottom third candidates. 

Have a nice day.


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## OldSolduer (12 Mar 2009)

Try an Infantry TQ 6B (Now DP 3B) at the age of 47. Not a li made oot of fun. It sure teaches you what you are made of. I'm made of sugar!  haha
Or got to Ft Polk Lousiana and do a JRTC ex. 15 lbs in 21 days lost. Beat that Jenny Craig. :2c: ^-^


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## CorporalMajor (12 Mar 2009)

HighlandIslander said:
			
		

> Don't be so quick to generalize. Your profile says you've been in for two and a half years. How many courses have you seen from an objective [read: not a candidate at the time] point of view? There are good and bad ways of teaching (and, by extension, running pt) that can be found in both the regs and the reserves. I've seen borderline abusive pt sessions , and what you call "quiet professionalism" and "self-control" by instructors from both components. Don't let this fall into another Regs vs. res thread, and stick to the topic at hand.


I'm speaking on my observations alone and the experiences/opinions my peers have shared with me, again and again.   I've seen lots of great Res teachers but by and large many of my peers share the same view, esp my coursemates for those two courses...every one of my coursemates thought the Reg and Res staff were like night and day.  I know the Regs vs Res debate quite well, and don't worry, I'm not biased towards either component, but this is what I have seen.   

I wasn't a very good candiate on BMQ-SQ, but I wasn't a whiner. I shut my mouth and did my job even though I screwed up every now and then.  (I don't think giving my opinion on leadership styles and posturing as I did now, constitutes whining either, but whatever). In fact, the ones who were better candiates than me whined a whole lot more.. I look back on it all of three years later, more mature, wiser and possibly doing my PLQ this summer, and IMO, that style of leadership isn't mine.  I personally don't see the purpose.  And if it works for them, great.  So I respectfully disagree.  



Back on track.  I recently made the mistake of judging a book by its cover. It looked nice outside today, and I went for a 5K jog.  Other people did it, why can't I.... well I found out later it was -20C with windchill.. boy did my lungs ever get it...


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## Snaketnk (12 Mar 2009)

Worst Experience

DP1 of course; Sunday roll call comes around, and as usual, most of the platoon is still a little dopey if not hung over. Our Sgt decides he didn't do enough PT during the weekend, and so we go on a 15k run, in the rain, up and down some pretty steep hills. I think 12 of us finished with the Sgt. 

I Wouldn't exactly call it dreadful, I look back on all the "dreadful pt sessions" with nothing but a smile on my face.

On the bad leadership topic that's come up: DP1 Infantry is supposed to bring you near to (or over) the breaking point both physically and mentally. That's why the failure rate is sometimes over 50%, and almost always (over the last few years, bar a couple of exceptions) over 35-40%. It's not fair that the Staff get to sleep more, it's not fair that the Staff don't have to do station jobs, and it's not fair that they make you do PT after the field.  But guess what? They're not on course, you are. Take the difficult stuff for what it is: A chance at self-improvement. Just take it with a good attitude and you won't think so low of your instructors, you'll respect them for doing their job.


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## dangerboy (12 Mar 2009)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Worst Experience
> 
> It's not fair that the Staff get to sleep more, it's not fair that the Staff don't have to do station jobs, and it's not fair that they make you do PT after the field.  But guess what? They're not on course, you are. Take the difficult stuff for what it is: A chance at self-improvement. Just take it with a good attitude and you won't think so low of your instructors, you'll respect them for doing their job.



Just remember that the instructors are doing things that you are probably not aware of such as doing paperwork, there is alot of paperwork that is involved with a course, preparing for the next lecture that they have to teach. So even though you don't see them, chances are they are still working. Anyway enough of a hijack back to most dreadful  PT.


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## stealthylizard (12 Mar 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It started with having to put on my PT gear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this one.  I can't stand doing PT at the time, but feel great afterwards, except for today.  After missing PT for at least a month (2 weeks leave, and working in CQ the rest of the time), I felt dizzy and was seeing whirly things in my eyes, and it wasn't even that hard of a PT session.  I will have to try and get back into doing PT on my own time when missing out on it during the day.


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## Thompson_JM (13 Mar 2009)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Sounds like a lot of whining here. Unless courses have changed tremendously in the last few years, the DS tends to get more sleep than candidates. The reasoning behind it is that they are more alert than you whilst training you. A little extra PT at opportune times never killed anyone and I found it to be a unifying tool for courses/sections whatever. In fact in 28 years of experience I find the candidates that ***** the most about "hardcore" instructors were usually the sub-par, bottom third candidates.
> 
> Have a nice day.



TIme and a Place... thats all I'm saying.....  If it was the DS who rucked back with the Troops who did that, this would be Different in my opinion...  I dont know.... I see nothing wrong with pushing the Troops during training... but make it something worthwhile... Cack for the sake of Cack just makes the instructor look weak in my eyes.... Then again, I'm just a Mo' Trucker.... my trade doesnt require me to kick open doors and Kill things.... Just drive around and get shot at a lot.....  Different Job... maybe a Different Approach.... but the best instructors in my trade are the ones who dont need to rant and rave and play Stompy-Foot all the time....  and this is from the viewpoint having been taught by good and bad from the Reg and Res.


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## mover1 (13 Mar 2009)

Going for a nice run. You take the car to  Kippenheim Weiller parking lot. Run to the Rhine,   You make it out and come on back. You can see the parking lot. There is the car.
MY smokes are in the car. 
I can't wait to stop running to have a smoke.  
I am giving it all to keep with the group till we make the parking lot.
Damn we are passing the parking lot.
what the hell.
wait we are running to the north marg now..F#$%

Those were the worst periods of pt for me. When you saw what was supposed to be the end point. And ran right past it.


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## CorporalMajor (13 Mar 2009)

Tommy said:
			
		

> TIme and a Place... thats all I'm saying.....  If it was the DS who rucked back with the Troops who did that, this would be Different in my opinion...  I dont know.... I see nothing wrong with pushing the Troops during training... but make it something worthwhile... Cack for the sake of Cack just makes the instructor look weak in my eyes.... Then again, I'm just a Mo' Trucker.... my trade doesnt require me to kick open doors and Kill things.... Just drive around and get shot at a lot.....  Different Job... maybe a Different Approach.... but the best instructors in my trade are the ones who dont need to rant and rave and play Stompy-Foot all the time....  and this is from the viewpoint having been taught by good and bad from the Reg and Res.


Same here.  reading Snaketnk and dangerboy's posts, I will admit they have a defensible argument as well.  Instructing is difficult in itself.  
IMO it really is, at the end of the day, time and place, and perhaps trade as well. 


Yet another dreadful PT experience:  Not knowing my limits on working up for BFT, and getting open blisters the size of golf balls.  

EDIT: Someone mentioned smoking.  Reminds me of the habit of the same name I had this summer.  It literally cut my cardiovascular work in half, and instantly.  I was running 7k up the Rideau Canal, from Carleton to U of O every other day and after sucking that smoke in, it was a struggle to do 2K.  I dropped that stuff almost instantly.  today I VERY RARELY smoke despite how oddly tempting the thought is.


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## Teeps74 (13 Mar 2009)

Well, I was gonna post something funny... But frankly, this thread died with a fair bit o' whining from those that do not know.  Funny, how everyone has an expert opinion, even tho some are wearing uniforms fresh from the bags they came in yet.

First lesson that needs to be learned in Army life, more so in combat arms... Stress. If we do not teach you to survive something pissant like someone yelling at you for not having your damned hat on straight, just how the hell are you going to survive your first IED intiated TIC? 

We do not teach you to handle stress by holding your hands, and whispering soothing and calming words into your ears. We teach you to handle stress, by putting you through stress. Regular and hard PT, jacking people up for dirt in the bottom of your utility pouch, station jobs, on top of studying for your PO check, yelling, rucking, sleepless nights... These are all training aids. The purpose of all this is to try to prevent you from turning into a snivelling cowering little creature the first time a gun is shot in anger near you.

If you are gonna whine and cry, about staff changing up, and stressing you with some PT because you were slacking off... I would suggest that you picked the wrong trade. We are currently at war... People are dying. This is a stressful job.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Mar 2009)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Sounds like a lot of whining here. Unless courses have changed tremendously in the last few years, the DS tends to get more sleep than candidates. The reasoning behind it is that they are more alert than you whilst training you. A little extra PT at opportune times never killed anyone and I found it to be a unifying tool for courses/sections whatever. In fact in 28 years of experience I find the candidates that ***** the most about "hardcore" instructors were usually the sub-par, bottom third candidates.
> 
> Have a nice day.



Agreed.  '96, Gagetown, I was staff (Sect 2 i/c) on a JNCO (OAS) course.  We were completing the 3 day defensive confirmation FTX out in Eniskillen (spelling?).  During the ex, candidates got MINIMAL sleep, as laid out in the TP, Standards, etc.  The section staff, however, did 12 hour shifts.  I was on the 1900-0700 rotation, my Sect Cmdr was 0700-1900.  The troops were griping about *us* getting sleep while they didn't.

I reminded them that I was not here to take the trg, but that I was on the receiving end when I was on CLC.

My job was to task and assess the Student Section Commander, not be part of defensive routine, etc.  

I don't tell pilots how to fly planes because I haven't done that job myself.  If you've never instructed before...yah.


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## brihard (13 Mar 2009)

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> We do not teach you to handle stress by holding your hands, and whispering soothing and calming words into your ears. We teach you to handle stress, by putting you through stress. Regular and hard PT, jacking people up for dirt in the bottom of your utility pouch, station jobs, on top of studying for your PO check, yelling, rucking, sleepless nights... These are all training aids.



Hm, I can't help but remember a short nap I as a young Pte once took behind a C9, and then the neat words you used to wake me up and ask where my gun was.

Ah, the memories.  ;D


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## 4Feathers (13 Mar 2009)

I remember during a run with our PPCLI Capt, he decided we would also  take in a swim, but as we swam in the cold mountain lake, we had to break the thin layer of ice in front of us. It did not last long, just long enough for hypothermia to set in for some. Did you know that frozen water actually feels very hot after a bit? We all survived (^:


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## TimBit (13 Mar 2009)

4Feathers said:
			
		

> I remember during a run with our PPCLI Capt, he decided we would also  take in a swim, but as we swam in the cold mountain lake, we had to break the thin layer of ice in front of us. It did not last long, just long enough for hypothermia to set in for some. Did you know that frozen water actually feels very hot after a bit? We all survived (^:



Seriously? I think he could have been charged. There is no way that I can see such a thing being justified as combat readiness. When and why would you have to purposefully swim in a frozen lake in a combat situation. Never. Let's face it, never. If you ever cross a lake on a combat patrol and the ice breaks then that's called a problem. I don't think the patrol would continue. Gear would be lost, people would be unfit for combat and a medevac would be called in.

Now not sleeping on a course, marching 20 clicks in FBO and running 15 clicks in the morning, yeah sure: it does prepare you for the combat environment. Swim in a frozen lake? No. Readiness AND care of the troops are the primary duties of any superior. I find this one hard to look over.

Now you can flame me if you will.   anzer:


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## Gunnar (13 Mar 2009)

> why would you have to purposefully swim in a frozen lake in a combat situation



When would you ever have to climb up a sheer cliff viewed as unclimbable using only ropes in a combat situation?

When would you ever march 3 miles up the middle of a freezing cold creek to take an enemy position?

Canadians have done both.

In a combat situation, anything that leads to the success of the mission goes.  The tradeoff is always whether or not the mission will succeed if you do it.  It might have been a bad idea for training, and I don't think it would be typical for a combat situation (you certainly wouldn't go for a pleasure swim in circles under these circumstances), but if it were necessary to cross a river because the nice warm bridge would bring your entire company under lethal fire, it might be worth the risk, if you could be reasonably certain that most of your men and materiel would survive to get the job done.


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## Teeps74 (13 Mar 2009)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Hm, I can't help but remember a short nap I as a young Pte once took behind a C9, and then the neat words you used to wake me up and ask where my gun was.
> 
> Ah, the memories.  ;D



ROFL I have fallen asleep behind that thing too, and been woken up rudely... Course that size 10 to the back of the helmet sucked... But better then the charge I would have gotten lol.


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## Eye In The Sky (13 Mar 2009)

TimBit said:
			
		

> Readiness AND care of the troops are the primary duties of any superior. I find this one hard to look over.



And here I mistakenly thought the accomplishment of the mission was a primary duty of a commander/leader...

A former RSM taught me the 3 Ms.

The Mission.
The Men.
Then Myself.

If (when I was army) one of my troops got cold or wet during the accomplishment of the mission, and didn't like it...well its a volunteer military we are in.  Subway is always looking for "Sandwich Artists".  I guess they can go work there.

When I was at CABC, we did the "lake run" one night (well, a few nights lol).  I am sure it wasn't a PO check on the course.  Should our Crse O have been charged for increasing our ability to perform thru PT?


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## TimBit (13 Mar 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> And here I mistakenly thought the accomplishment of the mission was a primary duty of a commander/leader...
> 
> A former RSM taught me the 3 Ms.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I should have added "while in garrison", where readiness is the mission.

As for the swim...no problem with the swim. But in a frozen lake? Why?


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## CorporalMajor (13 Mar 2009)

Looks like my naivety has caught up with me again. Reconsidering my opinion, you guys are probably right.  It looks like if you want to make fighting men, you have to put them through some real shitty times, even if it means swimming in frigid waters....... (christ).


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## Greymatters (13 Mar 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> A former RSM taught me the 3 Ms.
> 
> The Mission.
> The Men.
> Then Myself.



I would agree with the teaching but the order of practice is very dependent on the situation, for example:

Basic Training                      Home Base/Training                    Field Operations
Myself                                Men                                        Mission
Men                                   Mission                                    Men
Mission                               Myself                                     Myself

One thing you will notice here is that the men under your command should never be last...


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## 4Feathers (13 Mar 2009)

TimBit said:
			
		

> Seriously? I think he could have been charged. There is no way that I can see such a thing being justified as combat readiness. When and why would you have to purposefully swim in a frozen lake in a combat situation. Never. Let's face it, never. If you ever cross a lake on a combat patrol and the ice breaks then that's called a problem. I don't think the patrol would continue. Gear would be lost, people would be unfit for combat and a medevac would be called in.
> 
> Now not sleeping on a course, marching 20 clicks in FBO and running 15 clicks in the morning, yeah sure: it does prepare you for the combat environment. Swim in a frozen lake? No. Readiness AND care of the troops are the primary duties of any superior. I find this one hard to look over.
> 
> Now you can flame me if you will.   anzer:


Yes, seriously. It was over 20 years ago though. For what it's worth, the Capt joined us in the water. He always did everything he made us do.


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## Snaketnk (13 Mar 2009)

I'm a little envious of the cold dip in the drink to be honest. Any experience is good experience.


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## CorporalMajor (13 Mar 2009)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> I'm a little envious of the cold dip in the drink to be honest. Any experience is good experience.


........ at least after doing that, you won't be drowsy anymore.  :camo:

Ever took shower without any hot water?  I have, and man, you snap out fatigue pretty damn quick.


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## Journeyman (14 Mar 2009)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> I'm a little envious ...... *Any experience is good experience*.


I can send you contact info for my ex-wife if you'd like   :stars:


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## OldSolduer (14 Mar 2009)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> I'm a little envious of the cold dip in the drink to be honest. Any experience is good experience.



Any experience is a good experience...?....hmmmmm.....let me ponder that one! :


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## Snaketnk (14 Mar 2009)

Unless you're going to tell me you learned absolutely nothing and are a worse person/soldier because of it, I stand by my statement.


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## 421_434_226 (14 Mar 2009)

I guess mine was my first 10 or so PT periods after being posted to 1RCR in '88. This was after spending around 4 yrs at Base Maint Borden, the UWO grounds was where I learned how to run and puke at the same time. (to be truthful it was more of a zombie like shuffle/run for me) :-X


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## stealthylizard (14 Mar 2009)

For mine, other than the slight aside I mentioned earlier, it was every day of the first month of RFT.


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## downhillslide (14 Mar 2009)

I would agree with the teaching but the order of practice is very dependent on the situation, for example:

Basic Training                      Home Base/Training                    Field Operations
Myself                                Men                                        Mission
Men                                   Mission                                    Men
Mission                               Myself                                     Myself

One thing you will notice here is that the men under your command should never be last...
Concur.


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