# Unexploded bombs, ammo in 150 possible Ontario locations: DND report



## Inquisitor (12 Aug 2013)

Interesting article in the Star

Link here http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/08/12/bombs_in_your_backyard_ontario_home_to_150_possible_locations_of_unexploded_bombs.html

The headline seems to be out of all proportion.   Many  of the areas were small arms only and have been inactive for years. I imagine they where cleared out before being shut down.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Aug 2013)

Inquisitor said:
			
		

> The headline seems to be out of all proportion.   Many  of the areas were small arms only and have been inactive for years. I imagine they where cleared out before being shut down.


I can tell you one of the sites listed in the TorStar list as "In Assessment" - "Thunder Bay - Rifle Range" - (IF it's talking about the only rifle range I used in the Mo' in T.Bay between '78 and '89) was cleaned up and given back to an area First Nation several years ago.

Beware the story that doesn't want to share the "obtained" source documents ....


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## Jarnhamar (12 Aug 2013)

Inquisitor said:
			
		

> Interesting article in the Star
> 
> Link here http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/08/12/bombs_in_your_backyard_ontario_home_to_150_possible_locations_of_unexploded_bombs.html
> 
> The headline seems to be out of all proportion.   Many  of the areas were small arms only and have been inactive for years. I imagine they where cleared out before being shut down.



You need to accept that Han didn't shoot first.


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## George Wallace (12 Aug 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I can tell you one of the sites listed in the TorStar list as "In Assessment" - "Thunder Bay - Rifle Range" - (IF it's talking about the only rifle range I used in the Mo' in T.Bay between '78 and '89) was cleaned up and given back to an area First Nation several years ago.
> 
> Beware the story that doesn't want to share the "obtained" source documents ....



If its sole purpose was as a rifle range, there probably would be no concerns, but many of our wartime ranges also saw the firing of mortars, artillery in Direct and Indirect fire, as well as anti-tank rounds.  Some ranges even saw the use of aircraft firing rockets.   

If you look at the return to the Sarcee Nation of the ranges in Calgary, you will find that it cost (to the best of my knowledge) approx. 1M CAD to clear to 1 cubic meter, to the depth of 1 meter.  There is no way that any former range used by Canada's military can be completely cleared of UXOs.  

If you look at Europe, they are still finding UXOs from the First World War, not just the last.  We have been over this in other topics, as to the nature of the EARTH and frost action bringing objects to the surface over time.  At the same time, to build a subdivision on a former range, digging basements and utility ditches, is also looking for trouble.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If its sole purpose was as a rifle range, there probably would be no concerns, but many of our wartime ranges also saw the firing of mortars, artillery in Direct and Indirect fire, as well as anti-tank rounds.  Some ranges even saw the use of aircraft firing rockets.
> 
> If you look at the return to the Sarcee Nation of the ranges in Calgary, you will find that it cost (to the best of my knowledge) approx. 1M CAD to clear to 1 cubic meter, to the depth of 1 meter.  There is no way that any former range used by Canada's military can be completely cleared of UXOs.


What few figures I heard floating around for the clean-up here were in the lower end of that neighbourhood, given the mostly rifle range use here.  I also presumed (to be corrected) that if one branch of the government was going to be taking a piece of land (as part of a reserve) that it would have to be pretty spic and span, even if it was taking it over from another branch of the government.


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## Kat Stevens (12 Aug 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If its sole purpose was as a rifle range, there probably would be no concerns, but many of our wartime ranges also saw the firing of mortars, artillery in Direct and Indirect fire, as well as anti-tank rounds.  Some ranges even saw the use of aircraft firing rockets.
> 
> If you look at the return to the Sarcee Nation of the ranges in Calgary, you will find that it cost (to the best of my knowledge) approx. 1M CAD to clear to 1 cubic meter, to the depth of 1 meter.  There is no way that any former range used by Canada's military can be completely cleared of UXOs.
> 
> If you look at Europe, they are still finding UXOs from the First World War, not just the last.  We have been over this in other topics, as to the nature of the EARTH and frost action bringing objects to the surface over time.  At the same time, to build a subdivision on a former range, digging basements and utility ditches, is also looking for trouble.




The cost of the Sarcee cleanup is all blown out because it was one of the first big UXO projects DND undertook, and in their zeal to look like good tenants, agreed in the contract to make the ground Free of Metal, not Free from UXO.  You have no idea how many MG pits full of buried link and brass there are up on High Butte.


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## pbi (28 Aug 2013)

I suspect that there may be more of this stuff around than people know or might want to admit. 

Particularly in the days before WWII, the attitude about this stuff was quite different than it is today, when increased concern for safety and the environment, various misadventures and court cases have made us much more careful.  In my opinion, it probably mirrored the bad practices that were common in industry until not too long ago: bury it or dump it  in a lake and forget about it.

When I was in LFCA HQ in the late 90's we got involved in a UXO problem at Nobel. just north of Parry Sound ON. You may know that during WWI  Nobel was the site of an artillery ammunition filling plant (the ruins are still there in the bush just outside the existing village). Late in the last year of WWI, due to lack of space at the plant a large amount of filled shells was stacked on the ice of the bay at Nobel, awaiting shipment by rail.

As the war had ended there was no more demand for these shells. They sat on the ice and, in the spring, at least some if not all of them fell through into the bay, where they settled on the bottom. Apparently, they were simply forgotten about.

Fast forward to the 1960s, when the Nobel area became accessible by highway from the south. Cottages developed along the bay, and people began to salvage these shells out of the shallows. Reportedly, some shells even migrated ashore (perhaps because of ice action). This situation seems to have existed for many years, until around 1998/99 when we were approached (can't remember by whom: I think it was the Province...but possibly the municipality or a developer)
There ensued a back and forth about whose responsibility these shells were, as it wasn't clear that the military had ever taken posession of them.
In the end (IIRC) we tasked 2 CER to dive on the site and see what the extent of the problem was. While the divers may have removed a few shells, I don't recall that we ever undertook a full-scale underwater clearance. I think many of those shells may still  be there.

All that said, I think that there are at least a couple of exaggerations or misinterpretations in the article. First of all, the use of the term "ordnance depot" misses the point that until Unification, the RCOC was responsible for much of the supply function for the Army. An "ordnance depot" could have contained clothing, spare parts or vehicles (ie: Cobourg or Long Branch). It does not automatically imply that there was ever any UXO there.

Second, I'm familiar with the story about the bombing range at Weller's Bay: my mother used to live in the village of Consecon which abuts the bay, as it has done for the better part of two hundred years. I believe that the "500lb bombs" are mostly inert concrete training bombs dropped by aircraft that flew out of RCAF Picton (BCATP) during WWII. I think it is very unlikely that HE bombs would have been dropped that close to an inhabited village.


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## Journeyman (28 Aug 2013)

Inquisitor said:
			
		

> The headline seems to be out of all proportion.





			
				pbi said:
			
		

> .... I think that there are at least a couple of exaggerations or misinterpretations in the article.



You do know it's the _Toronto Star_, right?  Canada's own Fox news, as far as credible reporting goes?

Hell, I wouldn't even believe their crossword puzzles....


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## AJFitzpatrick (31 Aug 2013)

And even when a site is declared cleared it might not actually be ...

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/105834/post-1141558.html#msg1141558 
{complete with my nose getting out of joint}

And current status 

http://www.pc.gc.ca/apps/scond/Cond_E.asp?oID=8869&oPark=100324


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## AJFitzpatrick (1 Sep 2013)

And the inevitable CBC report ...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/08/31/bc-wickaninnish-sand-dunes-mortar.html


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## Kat Stevens (1 Sep 2013)

AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> And the inevitable CBC report ...
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2013/08/31/bc-wickaninnish-sand-dunes-mortar.html





			
				AJFitzpatrick said:
			
		

> And even when a site is declared cleared it might not actually be ...
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/105834/post-1141558.html#msg1141558
> {complete with my nose getting out of joint}
> ...



As a UXO technician, I'm more than happy to step aside and let you show me how this can be done any faster and more efficiently.  It's dunes, they move. Shit surfaces and sinks all the time.  Add to that the fact that, voles, moles, stoats, goats, and every other rare creature on the shagging planet likes to make babies there only adds to the dick factor.  Something about lanes has been mentioned on this sight once or twice, but can't find the ref just now, sorry.


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## AJFitzpatrick (2 Sep 2013)

Point me to where I say that they should be doing it faster and I will gladly acknowledge being out of lane.


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## Kat Stevens (2 Sep 2013)

The implication in your post is that those beloved piles of sand have been inaccessible for far too long, and will continue to be so for quite some time to come.  Apologies if that wasn't your intent.


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