# Annual C7 refresher in winter - dress question



## Occam (8 Feb 2011)

So, I managed to successfully schedule every weapons requal for the last 20-odd years during the summer.

Until this year.

My question is this:  We Air Force types (and I presume the Army types as well!) have these wonderful warm CADPAT coveralls, parka & liner that have been in a storage box ever since they were issued.  Is there any point in wearing this stuff to the range during a frigid snap, if you can't get a tac vest (which they provide) over top of it?  Has anyone ever worn this stuff?  Will a tac vest fit over it?  I admit it would be nice to not freeze my butt off at the range, but if wearing the tac vest is mandatory then there's not much point in wearing the comfy stuff and I'll just wear the regular CADPAT coat and long underwear.

You Army guys can stop giggling at the zoomie now....


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## dangerboy (8 Feb 2011)

The Tac-Vest will fit over it, you have to loosen the straps in the back.


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## Zoomie (8 Feb 2011)

No requirement to wear the Tac-Vest - I just did the shoot earlier this year.


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## Rheostatic (8 Feb 2011)

Yeah, I'd be wearing the warm stuff, especially to shoot from the prone. Like he said, just loosen the straps. 

Then again, maybe the Air Force range is heated?


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## aesop081 (8 Feb 2011)

Rheostatic said:
			
		

> Then again, maybe the Air Force range is heated?



They are. We also run them on 5-star resort properties. After the shoot, everyone gets a nice-weekend there to relax with bar and spa.


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## Occam (8 Feb 2011)

That's a relief that it will fit, but I'm hoping Zoomie is right and it isn't required.  Now if only the snow will hold off...I have a hard enough time putting rounds in the right direction as it is.   ;D

Thanks!



			
				Rheostatic said:
			
		

> Then again, maybe the Air Force range is heated?



I was hoping!  I don't want any unfortunate injuries that might hamper drinking curling this weekend!


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## Navalsnpr (8 Feb 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> No requirement to wear the Tac-Vest - I just did the shoot earlier this year.



The CFOSP (B-GL-382-001/FP-001) does state the following:

_27.	Dress. Dress for weapons training and firing should reflect the standard of dress and equipment required by the firer on operational deployments during which the weapon will be employed. Exceptions to this rule will only be granted as a result of equipment availability (e.g. ballistic plates). This is essential as the equipment worn will effect the position adopted by the firer, and in turn, affect their ability to apply the principles that govern good shooting. Practices conducted under NBC conditions must be completed with the firer wearing at least the NBCD mask and some form of gloves._

Train as you fight??


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## PuckChaser (8 Feb 2011)

Yeah, that "No requirement to wear the TacVest" comment made my heart sad.


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## aesop081 (8 Feb 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Yeah, that "No requirement to wear the TacVest" comment made my heart sad.



Why ?



			
				Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> Train as you fight??



If i am using a C7 to shoot at something, it is because there is a big flaming wreck somewhere on the ground and i'm not sticking around to get caught. I dont get issued a tacvest and certainly dont fly with one so.......how would shooting on the range with a tacvest on be "train as i fight" ??


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## Shamrock (8 Feb 2011)

How cold are you expecting it to be?

For the most part, the IECS kit should be compatible with the TV, but I recall a time when we used the mag pouches in the parka as part of the winter fighting order.  You can also think about thermarests for shooting from the prone.


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## Occam (8 Feb 2011)

ʞɔoɹɯɐɥs said:
			
		

> How cold are you expecting it to be?
> 
> For the most part, the IECS kit should be compatible with the TV, but I recall a time when we used the mag pouches in the parka as part of the winter fighting order.  You can also think about thermarests for shooting from the prone.



-11, -20 with the wind chill...

IECS?  Doesn't sound familiar, is that the Army clothing family?  I think the AF gets ICE (Integrated Clothing Ensemble), which is what it says on all my nice warm-looking kit.  Could may well be the same stuff with a different tag, though...


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## aesop081 (8 Feb 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> IECS?



Same stuff


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## navymich (8 Feb 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> So, I managed to successfully schedule every weapons requal for the last 20-odd years during the summer.
> 
> Until this year.



Our range is closed every year from Nov until springtime.  Yep, more soft airforce types right here!  lol


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## Occam (8 Feb 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Same stuff



There you go.  I'm going to be the warmest, brightest green bush at the range!  This stuff hasn't seen the light of day for maybe 8 years!   ;D



			
				airmich said:
			
		

> Our range is closed every year from Nov until springtime.  Yep, more soft airforce types right here!  lol



Frankly, I'm surprised Ottawa's is open now.  Then again, there's a lot of green here...


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## NavyShooter (8 Feb 2011)

Wear decent gloves.......


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## Armymedic (8 Feb 2011)

Good gloves.... the only kit the CF does not have for winter south of the treeline.


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## Occam (8 Feb 2011)

Yes, that could be a problem.  Have to dig through what issued goodies I have...


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## Shamrock (8 Feb 2011)

Trigger finger mitts.

Not that I think they're particularly effective, I just want to see someone use them once.


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## PMedMoe (8 Feb 2011)

I have an excellent pair of fleece-lined neoprene gloves that I bought at the PX in Bagram.   ;D


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## Navalsnpr (9 Feb 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If i am using a C7 to shoot at something, it is because there is a big flaming wreck somewhere on the ground and i'm not sticking around to get caught. I dont get issued a tacvest and certainly dont fly with one so.......how would shooting on the range with a tacvest on be "train as i fight" ??



You don't do Force Protection / Base Defence?

If are not issued it, then you would not require to wear it, but if it is on your scale of issue for your trade, then you should be wearing it.


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Feb 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> -11, -20 with the wind chill...
> 
> IECS?  Doesn't sound familiar, is that the Army clothing family?  I think the AF gets ICE (Integrated Clothing Ensemble), which is what it says on all my nice warm-looking kit.  Could may well be the same stuff with a different tag, though...





			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Same stuff



Yes and a slight no,

IECS had the gortex material near the wearer while the ICE has it closer to the outside...... also IECS was Canadian Avenger Green....


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## Occam (9 Feb 2011)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> You don't do Force Protection / Base Defence?
> 
> If are not issued it, then you would not require to wear it, but if it is on your scale of issue for your trade, then you should be wearing it.



It's not on the scale of issue for my trade, yet the vests were there at the range today, and would have been worn had we actually shot the weapons.  Temps were too low, and there was quite a bit of blowing snow about.  So we ended up doing the TOETs in the classroom.

So we actually did get the Air Force heated range after all!


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## VIChris (9 Feb 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Yes, that could be a problem.  Have to dig through what issued goodies I have...



Silk glove liners are a godsend. Super thin, and they add an extra layer of usable insulation. That and some pocket warmers. Keep them burning next to the lip balm you're always looking for when the RSM sees you with your hands in your pockets.


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## Zoomie (9 Feb 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> .  Temps were too low, and there was quite a bit of blowing snow about.



Temps too low?  I was out shooting in -20C in early Jan.  Winnipeg's St-Charles range does not close - how's that for Air Force?

No such thing as Tac Vest on my scale of issue - hence not wearing one.  I shot the C7A2 because I wanted to make my APRV Green for once - only requirement for combat ready aircrew is 9mm.  I last shot the C7A1 on the range in 2005.


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## mover1 (9 Feb 2011)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> The CFOSP (B-GL-382-001/FP-001) does state the following:
> 
> _27.	Dress. Dress for weapons training and firing should reflect the standard of dress and equipment required by the firer on operational deployments during which the weapon will be employed. Exceptions to this rule will only be granted as a result of equipment availability (e.g. ballistic plates). This is essential as the equipment worn will effect the position adopted by the firer, and in turn, affect their ability to apply the principles that govern good shooting. Practices conducted under NBC conditions must be completed with the firer wearing at least the NBCD mask and some form of gloves._
> 
> Train as you fight??



So Tactical flying pants, T-shirt and a ball cap? oh man i think i am going to have book my training in the summer.

Actually since I came to the flying word i am quite surprised on how switched on and adamant the Air Force is about its quals. No 9mm no flying over seas, no yearly CPR, no flying for you, needles up to date sorry your grounded.   We may joke and be seem to be lax about a lot of stuff but we don't mess around when it comes to this sort of thing.


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## Occam (10 Feb 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Temps too low?  I was out shooting in -20C in early Jan.  Winnipeg's St-Charles range does not close - how's that for Air Force?



Hey, I was ready to shoot;  but they don't tell me how to run a network, so I don't tell them how to run their range.   ;D


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## ballz (10 Feb 2011)

The Canadian military (of all things Canadian) decided to wait for a warmer day  and only -20 of all temperatures...

As that random commercial that I can no longer remember what it belongs to says, "No self-respecting Canadian every says 'Let's wait for a warmer day'"


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## Occam (12 Feb 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> The Canadian military (of all things Canadian) decided to wait for a warmer day  and only -20 of all temperatures...
> 
> As that random commercial that I can no longer remember what it belongs to says, "No self-respecting Canadian every says 'Let's wait for a warmer day'"



Since Shamrock's post (succinct as it was) got deleted, I'll address this.

I wasn't the Range Safety Officer that day, nor was I privy to the Range Standing Orders.  But when the instructor comes into the classroom and tells the class (including several four ringers) that Range Operations has closed the range, I don't believe anyone argued.  Do you have some additional information which might lead one to believe that the range shouldn't have been closed that day?

I trust that Connaught Range Ops knows their business, and that they don't close the range on a whim.


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## Kat Stevens (12 Feb 2011)

Little known factoid;  Most CF training policy is dictated by Molson Canadian and Tim Horton's commercials.


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## OldSolduer (12 Feb 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> The Canadian military (of all things Canadian) decided to wait for a warmer day  and only -20 of all temperatures...
> 
> As that random commercial that I can no longer remember what it belongs to says, "No self-respecting Canadian every says 'Let's wait for a warmer day'"



How about this then? Snow blowing in your face, visibility barely 100m, and when you try to open your disengaged eye, you have to pry it open with your free hand.


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## chrisf (12 Feb 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Snow blowing in your face, visibility barely 100m, and when you try to open your disengaged eye, you have to pry it open with your free hand.



"For all you do, this bud's for you."


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## Hammer Sandwich (12 Feb 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> "For all you do, this bud's for you."



I really hope that you do not dare disparage the only "drinkable" beer available on the East Coast....(since Pilsner isn't readibly accessible).

And, my 2 cents on the OP....
You wanna wear the TacVest to hold mags?...great!
TacVest over your coat....gloves on hands...(I thought the CADPAT GoatSkin Gloves were tits for keeping warm "for work" (ie: shootin'). 
Between serials, get them mitts on.
Shoot the serials when "shootin'" weather permits.
It's a qual...not the end of the damn world.

As has been told to me many a time..."TOO EASY".

IMHO.


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## ballz (12 Feb 2011)

Occam said:
			
		

> Since Shamrock's post (succinct as it was) got deleted, I'll address this.
> 
> I wasn't the Range Safety Officer that day, nor was I privy to the Range Standing Orders.  But when the instructor comes into the classroom and tells the class (including several four ringers) that Range Operations has closed the range, I don't believe anyone argued.  Do you have some additional information which might lead one to believe that the range shouldn't have been closed that day?
> 
> I trust that Connaught Range Ops knows their business, and that they don't close the range on a whim.



Jeez, the snow day froze your sense of humour, too? I am awfully glad that range did get shut down then.


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