# Req for "A Written Reference", was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:50:12 -0500*
There is little to add to this debate that John, Don and others haven‘t
presented.
Perhaps the better question, Sgt Woods, is "Why do you seek such a
reference?"
If the experience represented on this list is insufficient for your needs,
or has failed to offer you the ‘angle‘ you are looking for, then what
reference would suffice?
How old a reference are you ready to respect? Or by what rank written,
officer or NCO? What point of argument are you trying to establish with a
"written reference" and to whom do you plan to use this to demonstrate a
presumed moral high ground?
No written reference is going to present the relevant points more succinctly
or with better real-time focus than have the gentlemen on this list. I would
suggest you review their comments carefully, go back to them for individual
points of clarification where necessary and accept that their views,
collectively and individually, are likely the best representation you are
could hope to receive.
The bottom line is that the NCO brings experience and training to the table
balanced with a regimental sense of duty to protect the men though NOT
specifically from the officer, while the officer has the authority and
responsibility for his unit pl, coy, etc. balanced with technical training
for his role but likely limited experience at that level. The two have a
symbiotic as noted by John responsibility to achieve the unit‘s missions
with an economy of effort particularly with respect to their manpower no
gender bias implied, Joan and especially maintaining to the troops that
the officer is most clearly in charge of all things. In front of the troops,
the officer wins each and every point of contention. Such issues can always
be sorted out afterwards always well away from the troops, with a friendly
tone whenever possible, or through the CSM to the OC if the seriousness of
the issue is significant.
Keep in mind that if an officer enacts a bad decision he or she has to
live with the responsibility for it. And if an officer is
persuaded/coerced/badgered, etc. by a strong-willed NCO to enact a bad
decision - it is not the NCO that bears the responsibility for it
afterwards, it is still the officer who does so. Personally I‘d rather eat
crow for my own bad choices.   
While I would expect an NCO to point out alternatives, I would also expect
those choices to come with reasoned arguments as to why it may be better
than my own plan. And that includes areas where we normally let the NCO
handle things without interference. For example, if an officer decides to
re-engineer an administrative measure he/she is well within their area of
authority to do so.
Once I have things sorted out, I will, however, look through my files for
such a reference. Perhaps I will add it to the resources on my website.
Pro Patria
Mike
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Woods 
To: 
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 11:35 PM
Subject: RE: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Fellow list members.  So far excellent and entertaining responses.  But I
> think that you miss the essence of what I am seeking.
>
> I am looking for the almost impossible A Written Reference.
>
> I have spoken to many who have referred to seeing such a reference, yet no
> one seems to be able to say where.
> I‘m afraid it is like the Easter Bunny.  All believe, but no one can say
> why.
>
> MGW
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500*
Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
Mike
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
_______________________________________________________
The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, a
leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I am a
member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the
Army."
I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at all
times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military
Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I
will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal
safety.
Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always be
uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my
soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. I
am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers
and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be
fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties they
will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence
as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with whom I serve
seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking
appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my
integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my
comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned Officers,
leaders!
 The United States Army
Non-commissioned Officers Academy
Fort Knox, Kentucky
----- Original Message -----
From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends, a Snr
> NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of paper that
> compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one of those,
> who had, but cannot produce...
> Ubique
> Mac
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:15:46 -0000*
To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could someone 
please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what factors 
determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very basic 
stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much else that 
is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
Thanks,
Joan
PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! - the 
post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while back. When 
I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to kick your 
[referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] tush," what 
I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect anyone to 
water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a girl. In 
fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what this means 
is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field, 
regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek - nor 
succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling, basically!, 
UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something neither 
I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or tolerate.
Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on this 
recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
----Original Message Follows----
From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
Mike
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
_______________________________________________________
The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, a
leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I am a
member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the
Army."
I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at all
times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military
Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself. I
will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal
safety.
Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always be
uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my
soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. I
am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers
and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be
fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties they
will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence
as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with whom I serve
seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by taking
appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my
integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my
comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned Officers,
leaders!
  The United States Army
Non-commissioned Officers Academy
Fort Knox, Kentucky
----- Original Message -----
From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
 > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends, a 
Snr
 > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of paper 
that
 > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one of 
those,
 > who had, but cannot produce...
 > Ubique
 > Mac
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:12:04 -0500*
That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal granting
of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank of
commissioning and in future ranks.
The following is the text from my scroll:
_______________________________________________
Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom and Her
other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of
the Faith, to
Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
With Seniority of the  day of  19 .
We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage and
Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an officer
in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and diligently to
discharge your Duty as such in the rank of  Or in
such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to promote
or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as may
be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior
Officers and Men serving under you and use your best endeavour to keep them
in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey you as
their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders and
Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any your
Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby reposed
in you.
In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set his hand
and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa the  day of 
in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred and  and in the 
Year of Our Reign.
By Command of His Excellency the Governor General 
Minister of National Defence 
_________________________________________________
Mike
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken facetiously, sorry
if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on this
means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only, if not
one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey   
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could someone
> please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what factors
> determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very basic
> stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much else
that
> is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joan
>
> PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! - the
> post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while back.
When
> I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to kick
your
> [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] tush,"
what
> I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect anyone to
> water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a girl. In
> fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
>
> In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what this
means
> is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,
> regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
>
> In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek - nor
> succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
basically!,
> UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something
neither
> I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or tolerate.
>
> Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on this
> recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> To: 
> Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
>
> Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
>
> Mike
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> _______________________________________________________
>
> The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
>
> No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, a
> leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I am a
> member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the
> Army."
>
> I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at all
> times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military
> Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself.
I
> will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal
> safety.
>
> Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always be
> uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my
> soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. I
> am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
> responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
> outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers
> and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
> consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be
> fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
>
> Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties
they
> will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence
> as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with whom I
serve
> seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by
taking
> appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my
> integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my
> comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned Officers,
> leaders!
>
>   The United States Army
> Non-commissioned Officers Academy
> Fort Knox, Kentucky
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
>
>  > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends, a
> Snr
>  > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of paper
> that
>  > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one of
> those,
>  > who had, but cannot produce...
>  > Ubique
>  > Mac
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:20:05 -0500*
A few applicable notes on Commissions:
"To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The Queen‘s
commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." - 1RCR Guide
for Young Officers, March 1972
"His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me a
Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be conferred
upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and responsibility in
the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and honourable
profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta Military
Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17, Summer, 1990
"When you join your organization you will find there a willing body of men
who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command their
respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will not make
you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place you in a
position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
Mike
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:25:46 -0400*
Hey Mike!
My husband just told me to send the text off my commission scroll - you beat me
to it and saved me the task.   By the way, hubby and two sons are enjoying their
calendars.  Thanks again.
Beth
Mike Oleary wrote:
> That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal granting
> of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank of
> commissioning and in future ranks.
>
> The following is the text from my scroll:
> _______________________________________________
>
> Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom and Her
> other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of
> the Faith, to
> 
>
> Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
> With Seniority of the  day of  19 .
>
> We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage and
> Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an officer
> in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and diligently to
> discharge your Duty as such in the rank of  Or in
> such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to promote
> or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as may
> be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior
> Officers and Men serving under you and use your best endeavour to keep them
> in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey you as
> their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders and
> Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any your
> Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby reposed
> in you.
>
> In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set his hand
> and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa the  day of 
> in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred and  and in the 
> Year of Our Reign.
>
> By Command of His Excellency the Governor General 
>
> Minister of National Defence 
> _________________________________________________
>
> Mike
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
>
> PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken facetiously, sorry
> if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on this
> means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only, if not
> one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey   
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joan O. Arc 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
>
> > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could someone
> > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what factors
> > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very basic
> > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much else
> that
> > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Joan
> >
> > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! - the
> > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while back.
> When
> > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to kick
> your
> > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] tush,"
> what
> > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect anyone to
> > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a girl. In
> > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
> >
> > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what this
> means
> > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,
> > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
> >
> > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek - nor
> > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
> basically!,
> > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something
> neither
> > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or tolerate.
> >
> > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on this
> > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
> >
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > To: 
> > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
> >
> > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
> >
> > Mike
> >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > _______________________________________________________
> >
> > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
> >
> > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, a
> > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I am a
> > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the
> > Army."
> >
> > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at all
> > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military
> > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find myself.
> I
> > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal
> > safety.
> >
> > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always be
> > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my
> > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. I
> > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
> > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
> > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my soldiers
> > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
> > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be
> > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
> >
> > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties
> they
> > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and confidence
> > as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with whom I
> serve
> > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by
> taking
> > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my
> > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my
> > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned Officers,
> > leaders!
> >
> >   The United States Army
> > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
> > Fort Knox, Kentucky
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> >
> >  > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends, a
> > Snr
> >  > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of paper
> > that
> >  > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one of
> > those,
> >  > who had, but cannot produce...
> >  > Ubique
> >  > Mac
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:56:42 -0000*
Thanks so much for that *very* enlightening post, Mike. I *figured* that 
"commissioned" probably, in this context, meant something like "commissioned 
by the Queen to protect the realm", and am glad to see I wasn‘t completely 
off base.
Slowly we learn...
I really should visit your site, I suppose, to bring myself up to speed on 
these things, rather than pestering the Board with questions.
As to the gender stuff, glad to see I was more clear than I feared I had 
been. Nuff said on that score, I think.
Cheers,
Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer 
relationship
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:12:04 -0500
That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal granting
of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank of
commissioning and in future ranks.
The following is the text from my scroll:
_______________________________________________
Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom and Her
other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of
the Faith, to
Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
With Seniority of the  day of  19 .
We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage and
Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an officer
in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and diligently to
discharge your Duty as such in the rank of  Or in
such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to promote
or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as may
be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior
Officers and Men serving under you and use your best endeavour to keep them
in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey you as
their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders and
Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any your
Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby reposed
in you.
In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set his hand
and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa the  day of 
in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred and  and in the 
Year of Our Reign.
By Command of His Excellency the Governor General 
Minister of National Defence 
_________________________________________________
Mike
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken facetiously, sorry
if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on this
means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only, if not
one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey   
----- Original Message -----
From: Joan O. Arc 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
 > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could someone
 > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what factors
 > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very basic
 > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much else
that
 > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
 >
 > Thanks,
 >
 > Joan
 >
 > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! - the
 > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while back.
When
 > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to kick
your
 > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] tush,"
what
 > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect anyone to
 > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a girl. 
In
 > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
 >
 > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what this
means
 > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,
 > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
 >
 > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek - nor
 > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
basically!,
 > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something
neither
 > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or 
tolerate.
 >
 > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on this
 > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
 >
 >
 > ----Original Message Follows----
 > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
 > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
 > To: 
 > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
 > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
 >
 > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
 >
 > Mike
 >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
 > _______________________________________________________
 >
 > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
 >
 > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, a
 > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I am a
 > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the
 > Army."
 >
 > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at all
 > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the Military
 > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find 
myself.
I
 > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or personal
 > safety.
 >
 > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always be
 > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my
 > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient. 
I
 > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
 > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
 > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my 
soldiers
 > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
 > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will be
 > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
 >
 > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties
they
 > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and 
confidence
 > as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with whom I
serve
 > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by
taking
 > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my
 > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow my
 > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned Officers,
 > leaders!
 >
 >   The United States Army
 > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
 > Fort Knox, Kentucky
 >
 >
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
 > To: 
 > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
 > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
 >
 >
 >  > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American friends, a
 > Snr
 >  > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of paper
 > that
 >  > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one of
 > those,
 >  > who had, but cannot produce...
 >  > Ubique
 >  > Mac
 >
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
 > _________________________________________________________________________
 > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
 >
 > --------------------------------------------------------
 > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
 > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
 > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
 > message body.
 >
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 00:59:13 -0000*
Those are all great - and inspiring - quotes. If only out in the civilian 
world people in positions of authority editors, clients, bosses, etc. had 
similar things said to them early and often - and LISTENED, how wonderful it 
would be!!!
----Original Message Follows----
From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: 
Subject: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer 
relationship
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 18:20:05 -0500
A few applicable notes on Commissions:
"To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The Queen‘s
commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." - 1RCR Guide
for Young Officers, March 1972
"His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me a
Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be conferred
upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and responsibility in
the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and honourable
profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta Military
Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17, Summer, 1990
"When you join your organization you will find there a willing body of men
who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command their
respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will not make
you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place you in a
position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
Mike
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:52:59 -0500*
You‘re welcome. Actually, when I was typing mine I was wondering if the
newest scrolls have any changed text. It would be interesting to have
someone post a recent edition if it has changed.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Beth MacFarlane 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
Officer relationship
> Hey Mike!
>
> My husband just told me to send the text off my commission scroll - you
beat me
> to it and saved me the task.   By the way, hubby and two sons are enjoying
their
> calendars.  Thanks again.
> Beth
>
> Mike Oleary wrote:
>
> > That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal
granting
> > of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank of
> > commissioning and in future ranks.
> >
> > The following is the text from my scroll:
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom and Her
> > other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender
of
> > the Faith, to
> > 
> >
> > Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
> > With Seniority of the  day of  19 .
> >
> > We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage and
> > Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an
officer
> > in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and
diligently to
> > discharge your Duty as such in the rank of  Or in
> > such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to
promote
> > or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as
may
> > be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior
> > Officers and Men serving under you and use your best endeavour to keep
them
> > in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey you
as
> > their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders and
> > Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any your
> > Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby
reposed
> > in you.
> >
> > In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set his
hand
> > and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa the  day of
> > in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred and  and in the
> > Year of Our Reign.
> >
> > By Command of His Excellency the Governor General 
> >
> > Minister of National Defence 
> > _________________________________________________
> >
> > Mike
> >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> >
> > PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken facetiously,
sorry
> > if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on this
> > means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only, if
not
> > one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey   
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Joan O. Arc 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
> > Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> >
> > > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could
someone
> > > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what
factors
> > > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very
basic
> > > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much
else
> > that
> > > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Joan
> > >
> > > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! -
the
> > > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while back.
> > When
> > > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to
kick
> > your
> > > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list]
tush,"
> > what
> > > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect anyone
to
> > > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a
girl. In
> > > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
> > >
> > > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what this
> > means
> > > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,
> > > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
> > >
> > > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek -
nor
> > > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
> > basically!,
> > > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something
> > neither
> > > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or
tolerate.
> > >
> > > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on
this
> > > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > To: 
> > > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
> > >
> > > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > > _______________________________________________________
> > >
> > > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
> > >
> > > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, a
> > > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I am
a
> > > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of the
> > > Army."
> > >
> > > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at
all
> > > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the
Military
> > > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find
myself.
> > I
> > > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or
personal
> > > safety.
> > >
> > > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will always
be
> > > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of
my
> > > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically
proficient. I
> > > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
> > > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
> > > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my
soldiers
> > > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
> > > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I will
be
> > > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
> > >
> > > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties
> > they
> > > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and
confidence
> > > as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with whom I
> > serve
> > > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by
> > taking
> > > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise my
> > > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow
my
> > > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned
Officers,
> > > leaders!
> > >
> > >   The United States Army
> > > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
> > > Fort Knox, Kentucky
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > >
> > >
> > >  > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American
friends, a
> > > Snr
> > >  > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of
paper
> > > that
> > >  > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one of
> > > those,
> > >  > who had, but cannot produce...
> > >  > Ubique
> > >  > Mac
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> > >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
 http://www.hotmail.com. 
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:57:09 -0400*
Hey Mike!
Guess who signed my scroll?  Perrin Beatty and Her Excellency Jeanne Sauve.  It
seems so long ago and I was quite proud when I received it.  1986.  A lifetime
ago. :.
Beth
Mike Oleary wrote:
> A few applicable notes on Commissions:
>
> "To possess authority over one‘s fellow man is no mean thing. The Queen‘s
> commission can make an officer but it cannot make a Gentleman." - 1RCR Guide
> for Young Officers, March 1972
>
> "His Majesty the King has done me the honour of conferring upon me a
> Commission as an Officer. This is the greatest honour that can be conferred
> upon any man. It places me in a position of authority and responsibility in
> the service of my King and Country in the most ancient and honourable
> profession in the world." - "An Officer‘s Code" from the Alberta Military
> Institute Journal, 1925, reprinted in Gunner Bulletin No 17, Summer, 1990
>
> "When you join your organization you will find there a willing body of men
> who ask from you nothing more than the qualities that will command their
> respect, their loyalty, and their obedience.... Commissions will not make
> you leaders they will merely make you officers. They will place you in a
> position where you can become leaders if you possess the proper
> attributes." - Maj Christian Bach, address "Leadership." 1918
>
> Mike
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Nick Butler" <absolut_nick@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:59:01 -0500*
Well Sir, I‘ll volunteer mine as soon as I pass my courses if no one has a 
more recent one available... and if the subject is still of interest then!
Paratus
Nick Butler
>From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / 
>Officer relationship
>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:52:59 -0500
>
>You‘re welcome. Actually, when I was typing mine I was wondering if the
>newest scrolls have any changed text. It would be interesting to have
>someone post a recent edition if it has changed.
>
>Mike
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Beth MacFarlane 
>To: 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:25 PM
>Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
>Officer relationship
>
>
> > Hey Mike!
> >
> > My husband just told me to send the text off my commission scroll - you
>beat me
> > to it and saved me the task.   By the way, hubby and two sons are 
>enjoying
>their
> > calendars.  Thanks again.
> > Beth
> >
> > Mike Oleary wrote:
> >
> > > That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal
>granting
> > > of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank of
> > > commissioning and in future ranks.
> > >
> > > The following is the text from my scroll:
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom and 
>Her
> > > other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender
>of
> > > the Faith, to
> > > 
> > >
> > > Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
> > > With Seniority of the  day of  19 .
> > >
> > > We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage 
>and
> > > Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an
>officer
> > > in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and
>diligently to
> > > discharge your Duty as such in the rank of  Or 
>in
> > > such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to
>promote
> > > or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as
>may
> > > be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior
> > > Officers and Men serving under you and use your best endeavour to keep
>them
> > > in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey 
>you
>as
> > > their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders and
> > > Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any your
> > > Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby
>reposed
> > > in you.
> > >
> > > In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set 
>his
>hand
> > > and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa the  day of
>
> > > in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred and  and in the
>
> > > Year of Our Reign.
> > >
> > > By Command of His Excellency the Governor General 
> > >
> > > Minister of National Defence 
> > > _________________________________________________
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > >
> > > PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken facetiously,
>sorry
> > > if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on 
>this
> > > means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only, if
>not
> > > one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey   
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Joan O. Arc 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
> > > Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer 
>relationship
> > >
> > > > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could
>someone
> > > > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what
>factors
> > > > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very
>basic
> > > > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much
>else
> > > that
> > > > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Joan
> > > >
> > > > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! 
>-
>the
> > > > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while 
>back.
> > > When
> > > > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to
>kick
> > > your
> > > > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list]
>tush,"
> > > what
> > > > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect 
>anyone
>to
> > > > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a
>girl. In
> > > > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
> > > >
> > > > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what 
>this
> > > means
> > > > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,
> > > > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
> > > >
> > > > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek -
>nor
> > > > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
> > > basically!,
> > > > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something
> > > neither
> > > > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or
>tolerate.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on
>this
> > > > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > > To: 
> > > > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > > > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
> > > >
> > > > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > > > _______________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
> > > >
> > > > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer, 
>a
> > > > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I 
>am
>a
> > > > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of 
>the
> > > > Army."
> > > >
> > > > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at
>all
> > > > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the
>Military
> > > > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find
>myself.
> > > I
> > > > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or
>personal
> > > > safety.
> > > >
> > > > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will 
>always
>be
> > > > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare 
>of
>my
> > > > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically
>proficient. I
> > > > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
> > > > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
> > > > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my
>soldiers
> > > > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
> > > > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I 
>will
>be
> > > > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
> > > >
> > > > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their 
>duties
> > > they
> > > > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and
>confidence
> > > > as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with whom 
>I
> > > serve
> > > > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by
> > > taking
> > > > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise 
>my
> > > > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow
>my
> > > > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned
>Officers,
> > > > leaders!
> > > >
> > > >   The United States Army
> > > > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
> > > > Fort Knox, Kentucky
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American
>friends, a
> > > > Snr
> > > >  > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of
>paper
> > > > that
> > > >  > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one 
>of
> > > > those,
> > > >  > who had, but cannot produce...
> > > >  > Ubique
> > > >  > Mac
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> > > >
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Martin Woods" <woodsm@home.com>* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:37:00 -0700*
The reasons I am seeking such a reference are as fol:
1.  Pers I have met, have claimed to have seen various references over the
years.  I am not necessarily looking for a "pam" or a DS solution, but even
articles, svc papers, etc.
2.  I find it interesting that such an important aspect of mil affairs, has
so little guidance.
Your tone suspicious?seems to indicate that I am looking for an "angle" to
win an argument with someone.  Not so.
Amazing as it may sound, I find the area interesting.  Or to quote the Creed
of the NCO which I appreciate you posting, thanks
"I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient."
MGW
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 28 Mar 2001 22:56:32 -0500*
Keep in mind that any such reference is usually still "one man‘s opinion."
The collective contributions here are more real and certainly more timely.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Woods 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 10:37 PM
Subject: RE: Req for "A Written Reference", was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
relationship
>
> The reasons I am seeking such a reference are as fol:
>
> 1.  Pers I have met, have claimed to have seen various references over the
> years.  I am not necessarily looking for a "pam" or a DS solution, but
even
> articles, svc papers, etc.
>
> 2.  I find it interesting that such an important aspect of mil affairs,
has
> so little guidance.
>
>
> Your tone suspicious?seems to indicate that I am looking for an "angle"
to
> win an argument with someone.  Not so.
> Amazing as it may sound, I find the area interesting.  Or to quote the
Creed
> of the NCO which I appreciate you posting, thanks
> "I will strive to remain tactically and technically proficient."
>
> MGW
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 04:41:43 -0000*
Pass those courses, Nick! Our inquiring minds long to know... :
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Nick Butler" 
Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / 
Officer relationship
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 20:59:01 -0500
Well Sir, I‘ll volunteer mine as soon as I pass my courses if no one has a
more recent one available... and if the subject is still of interest then!
Paratus
Nick Butler
>From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
>Officer relationship
>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:52:59 -0500
>
>You‘re welcome. Actually, when I was typing mine I was wondering if the
>newest scrolls have any changed text. It would be interesting to have
>someone post a recent edition if it has changed.
>
>Mike
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Beth MacFarlane 
>To: 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 6:25 PM
>Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
>Officer relationship
>
>
> > Hey Mike!
> >
> > My husband just told me to send the text off my commission scroll - you
>beat me
> > to it and saved me the task.   By the way, hubby and two sons are
>enjoying
>their
> > calendars.  Thanks again.
> > Beth
> >
> > Mike Oleary wrote:
> >
> > > That is one tough question. The officer‘s commission is the formal
>granting
> > > of authority as an officer in the Canadian Forces both in the rank of
> > > commissioning and in future ranks.
> > >
> > > The following is the text from my scroll:
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom and
>Her
> > > other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender
>of
> > > the Faith, to
> > > 
> > >
> > > Hereby appointed an Officer in Her Majesty‘s Canadian Armed Forces.
> > > With Seniority of the  day of  19 .
> > >
> > > We, reposing especial Trust and Confidence in your Loyalty, Courage
>and
> > > Integrity, do by these Presents Constitute and Appoint you to be an
>officer
> > > in our Canadian Armed Forces. You area therefore carefully and
>diligently to
> > > discharge your Duty as such in the rank of  Or
>in
> > > such other Rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to
>promote
> > > or appoint you to, and you are in such manner and on such occasions as
>may
> > > be prescribed by Us to exercise and well discipline both the Inferior
> > > Officers and Men serving under you and use your best endeavour to keep
>them
> > > in good Order and Discipline. And We do hereby Command them to Obey
>you
>as
> > > their Superior Officer, and you to observe and follow such Orders and
> > > Directions as from time to time you shall receive from Us, or any your
> > > Superior Officer according to Law, in pursuance of the Trust hereby
>reposed
> > > in you.
> > >
> > > In witness Whereof Our Governor General of Canada hath hereunto set
>his
>hand
> > > and Seal at our Government House in the City of Ottawa the  day of
>
> > > in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand Nine Hundred and  and in the
>
> > > Year of Our Reign.
> > >
> > > By Command of His Excellency the Governor General 
> > >
> > > Minister of National Defence 
> > > _________________________________________________
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > >
> > > PS to Joan - the PC-gender remark should have been taken facetiously,
>sorry
> > > if it struck a nerve. You have in fact established yourself well on
>this
> > > means and no disrespect was to be inferred, You do remain our only, if
>not
> > > one of very few, female correspondents. Cheers. mikey   
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Joan O. Arc 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
> > > Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer
>relationship
> > >
> > > > To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could
>someone
> > > > please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what
>factors
> > > > determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very
>basic
> > > > stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much
>else
> > > that
> > > > is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Joan
> > > >
> > > > PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk!
>-
>the
> > > > post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while
>back.
> > > When
> > > > I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to
>kick
> > > your
> > > > [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list]
>tush,"
> > > what
> > > > I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect
>anyone
>to
> > > > water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a
>girl. In
> > > > fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
> > > >
> > > > In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what
>this
> > > means
> > > > is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,
> > > > regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
> > > >
> > > > In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek -
>nor
> > > > succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling,
> > > basically!,
> > > > UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something
> > > neither
> > > > I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or
>tolerate.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on
>this
> > > > recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > > From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
> > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > > To: 
> > > > Subject: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > > > Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:55:17 -0500
> > > >
> > > > Ask and you shall receive if it‘s already in my database
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > > > _______________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > The Creed of the Non-commissioned Officer
> > > >
> > > > No one is more professional than I. I am a Non-commissioned Officer,
>a
> > > > leader of soldiers. As a Non-commissioned Officer, I realize that I
>am
>a
> > > > member of a time-honored corps, which is known as "The Backbone of
>the
> > > > Army."
> > > >
> > > > I am proud of the Corps of the Non-commissioned Officers and will at
>all
> > > > times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the Corps, the
>Military
> > > > Service and my country regardless of the situation in which I find
>myself.
> > > I
> > > > will not use my grade or position to attain pleasure, profit, or
>personal
> > > > safety.
> > > >
> > > > Competence is my watch-word. My two basic responsibilities will
>always
>be
> > > > uppermost in my mind - accomplishment of my mission and the welfare
>of
>my
> > > > soldiers. I will strive to remain tactically and technically
>proficient. I
> > > > am aware of my role as a Non-commissioned Officer. I will fulfill my
> > > > responsibilities inherent in that role. All soldiers are entitled to
> > > > outstanding leadership I will provide that leadership. I know my
>soldiers
> > > > and I will always place their needs above my own. I will communicate
> > > > consistently with my soldiers and never leave them uninformed. I
>will
>be
> > > > fair and impartial when recommending both rewards and punishment.
> > > >
> > > > Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their
>duties
> > > they
> > > > will not have to accomplish mine. I will earn their respect and
>confidence
> > > > as well as that of my soldiers.  I will be loyal to those with whom
>I
> > > serve
> > > > seniors, peers and subordinates alike. I will exercise initiative by
> > > taking
> > > > appropriate action in the absence of orders. I will not compromise
>my
> > > > integrity, nor my moral courage. I will not forget, nor will I allow
>my
> > > > comrades to forget that we are professionals, Non-commissioned
>Officers,
> > > > leaders!
> > > >
> > > >   The United States Army
> > > > Non-commissioned Officers Academy
> > > > Fort Knox, Kentucky
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: The MacFarlanes‘ 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:29 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  > A long time ago, I had given to me, from one of my American
>friends, a
> > > > Snr
> > > >  > NCOs Creed, which spoke of all that. I have also had a piece of
>paper
> > > > that
> > > >  > compared Oficers‘ tasks, to Snr NCOs. Alas, I fear I am also one
>of
> > > > those,
> > > >  > who had, but cannot produce...
> > > >  > Ubique
> > > >  > Mac
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> > > >
>_________________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>http://www.hotmail.com.
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > > >
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com. 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Ian  Kate" <imcgrego@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 09:22:23 -0500*
The text looks like mine, however I will have to check a little more closely
later.  In this lawyers world a change of a word or two can apparently make
a world of difference.  Mine was singed by Adrienne Clarkson, so it should
be current.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Oleary" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Commission, was Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO /
Officer relationship
> You‘re welcome. Actually, when I was typing mine I was wondering if the
> newest scrolls have any changed text. It would be interesting to have
> someone post a recent edition if it has changed.
>
> Mike
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Ian  McGregor" <imcgrego@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 12:06:04 -0500*
Here are some definitions from an interesting article I came across.  
Unfortunately the photocopy I have cuts off the top of the page, so I do 
not know what the source is, but that it was originally printed in 1989, 
and reiterated in 1996.
Non-Commissioned Member NCM
Any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant 
to law, is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to the 
Canadian Forces.
Non-Commissioned Officer NCO
Means the Rank of Corporal Cpl, the appointment of Master Corporal 
MCpl, and the rank of Sergeant Sgt.
Junior Non-Commissioned Member Jr NCO
Means the Rank of Corporal Cpl and the appointment of Master Corporal 
MCpl.
Senior Non-Commissioned Officer Sr NCO
Means the rank of Sergeant Sgt.
Warrant Officer
Means those ranks between commissioned officers and non-commissioned 
officers, exclusive of Officer Cadet, specifically Warrant Officer WO, 
Master Warrant Officer MWO and Chief Warrant Officer CWO.
The article goes on to say:
"The equivalent Navy ranks and certain Army Regimental or Corps rank 
designators [i.e.: Spr or Tpr instead of Pte] fall into the appropriate 
definition above.
"It follows from these definitions then that the term NCM is used to 
collectively describe all members of the CF other than officers.  Within 
this collective term it is still correct to use the terms NCO, Jr NCO, 
Sr NCO, and Warrant Officer.
"We should therefore speak of the Duty NCO not Duty NCM, unless that 
duty may be performed by "any person other than on officer".  We should 
say Sr NCO Sr NCM is not a meaningful or legitimate term, NCO I/c and 
not NCM I/c, and of course the Warrant Officers and sergeants‘ Mess, not 
the Sr NCM‘s mess."
I hope this was able to help with your question Joan.  There are some 
things from the above that I still have questions on myself are Warrant 
Officers not still technically a Non-Commissioned Officers, as they do 
not hold commissions?.  It would help if I knew the source of the 
article.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joan O. Arc" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was Re: Sr NCO / Officer relationship
> To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, could 
someone
> please tell me what "commission" means in this context and what 
factors
> determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is very, very 
basic
> stuff, but without this one little piece of info., I‘m afraid much 
else that
> is being discussed at least partially sails over my head.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joan
>
> PS - On this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! - 
the
> post that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while back. 
When
> I said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to 
kick your
> [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this list] 
tush," what
> I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would NEVER expect anyone 
to
> water down job standards/requirements for me simply because I‘m a 
girl. In
> fact, I would be insulted by an organization/employer that did.
>
> In a civilian context - which is, of course, where I work - what this 
means
> is that I feel myself well able to compete with anyone in my field,
> regardless of age, gender, etc., under any circumstances.
>
> In a military context, however, it would mean I would neither seek - 
nor
> succeed in - combat-type roles because I am a 98-lb. weakling, 
basically!,
> UNLESS someone watered down the standards for me. This is something 
neither
> I, nor any other woman - in my opinion - should either expect or 
tolerate.
>
> Hope this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on 
this
> recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.
>
>
Here are some definitions from an 
interesting
article I came across. Unfortunately the photocopy I have cuts off 
the top
of the page, so I do not know what the source is, but that it was
originallyprinted in 1989, and reiterated in 1996.
Non-Commissioned Member NCM
Any person, other than an officer, who 
is enrolled
in, or who pursuant to law, is attached or seconded otherwise than as an 
officer
to the Canadian Forces.
Non-Commissioned Officer
NCO
Means the Rank of Corporal Cpl, the 
appointment
of Master Corporal MCpl, and the rank of Sergeant Sgt.
Junior Non-Commissioned Member 
Jr
NCO
Means the Rank of Corporal Cpl 
andthe
appointment of Master Corporal MCpl.
Senior Non-Commissioned Officer 
Sr
NCO
Means the rank of Sergeant 
Sgt.
Warrant 
Officer
Means those ranks between commissioned 
officers and
non-commissioned officers, exclusive of Officer Cadet, specifically 
Warrant
Officer WO, Master Warrant Officer MWO and Chief Warrant Officer
CWO.
The article goes on to 
say:
"The equivalent Navy ranks and certain 
Army
Regimental or Corps rank designators [i.e.: Spr or Tpr instead of 
Pte]fall
into the appropriate definition above.
"It follows from these definitions then 
that the
term NCM is used to collectively describe all members of the CF other 
than
officers. Within this collective term it is still correct to use 
the terms
NCO, Jr NCO, Sr NCO, and Warrant Officer.
"We should therefore speak of the Duty 
NCO not
Duty NCM, unless that duty may be performed by "any person other than on 
officer". We should say Sr NCO Sr NCM is not a meaningful or 
legitimate
term, NCO I/c and not NCM I/c, and of course the Warrant Officers and
sergeants‘ Mess, not the Sr NCM‘s mess."
I hope this was able to help with your 
question
Joan. There are some things from the above that I still have 
questions on
myself are Warrant Officers not still technically a Non-Commissioned 
Officers,
as they do not hold commissions?. It would help if I knew the 
source of
the article.
Ian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joan O. Arc" ltjoan_o_arc@hotmail.comgt
To: ltarmy-list@CdnArmy.cagt
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:15
PM
Subject: Re: NCO Creed US Army, was 
Re: Sr NCO /
Officer relationship
gt To come back to a very basic question I asked a while ago, 
could
someonegt please tell me what "commission" means in this context 
and what
factorsgt determine whether one is a CO or an NCO? I know this is 
very,
very basicgt stuff, but without this one little piece of info., 
I‘m afraid
much else thatgt is being discussed at least partially sails over 
my
head.gt gt Thanks,gt gt Joangt gt PS 
- On
this gender reference stuff, let me clarify - at some risk! - 
thegt post
that seemed to get me into such hot water with John a while back. 
Whengt I
said, "I don‘t expect special treatment, I just want a chance to kick
yourgt [referring to a theoretical colleague, NOT members of this 
list]
tush," whatgt I meant by "no special treatment" is that I would 
NEVER
expect anyone togt water down job standards/requirements for me 
simply
because I‘m a girl. Ingt fact, I would be insulted by an
organization/employer that did.gt gt In a civilian context - 
which
is, of course, where I work - what this meansgt is that I feel 
myself well
able to compete with anyone in my field,gt regardless of age, 
gender,
etc., under any circumstances.gt gt In a military context, 
however,
it would mean I would neither seek - norgt succeed in - 
combat-type roles
because I am a 98-lb. weakling, basically!,gt UNLESS someone 
watered
down the standards for me. This is something neithergt I, nor any 
other
woman - in my opinion - should either expect or tolerate.gt 
gt Hope
this is all clear now. I fear I didn‘t explain my position on 
thisgt
recurring isue at all well last time, for which I apologize.gt 
gt
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 11:10:09 -0800*
>Mine was singed by Adrienne Clarkson
They use a woodburning tool now?
Brad Sallows
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Thu, 29 Mar 2001 15:45:16 -0600*
on 29/3/01 11:06, Ian  McGregor at imcgrego@hotmail.com wrote:
> I hope this was able to help with your question Joan.  There are some things
> from the above that I still have questions on myself are Warrant Officers not
> still technically a Non-Commissioned Officers, as they do not hold
> commissions?.
The short answer is ‘nope‘ hehe
Warrant Officers are just that, those who have the ‘warrant‘ to serve. Now
to cloud the issue a lil more, the Staff Sergeant, today‘s Warrant Officer,
was a Senior NCO.
The best thing about being a Warrant Officer is that you couldn‘t be tried
by the CO. A Warrant Officer had to be tried by a Superior Commander. Now
I‘m not saying that a WO is likely to commit a chargable offence but it is
nice to know just the same.
There were lots of growing pains sorting out the ‘NCM in charge‘ and duty
NCM‘ when the term was first brought into vogue. The article that you quoted
from cleared it up nicely. I used to have an article written by the
Commadant of the Combat Arms School but I‘ve misplaced it. :
arte et marte
anderson sends:
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------

