# TCAT-PCAT info and questions ( merged )



## RHFC_piper (12 Feb 2008)

I've searched around the boards for this and managed to find some answers to my questions... but not to all of them... and I didn't want to open up a thread from 2005 to answer questions which are only slightly related to the topic.  So, I figured I'd fire up this thread and see where it goes.  As with all other posts; Mods, feel free to move/merge/delete.

So here's my issue;  with out going into crazy background details... since everyone already knows... here is my current situation.  I have been on TCAT since September 06.  I returned to work June 07 and am restricted to "clerical work only"... which basically means I'm chairborne... which isn't necessarily a bad thing... but it's not like I'm able to do much else anyway.  

So... moving right along;  I am up for a medical in April which will determine, or will be used to determine my PCAT... or so I'm told.

Now, My first question was going to be; what does this all mean?  Which was already answered in THIS thread... which is the thread I was going to post in, but decided not to open up an old topic.



			
				St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> Your file has gone to DMed Pol because your new PCAt is below your trade specs, which is the normal thing that happens. Two options which may occur:
> 
> 1. your deemed unfit for your trade and therefor unemployable...you either be offerd a medical OT or given a medical release.
> 2. your accommodated as still being employable in your trade and you'll carry on doing your job with medical limitations. (more likely if you are MCpl or above)
> ...



So... there it is... first question answered. 
Which leaves me with a couple other questions;

1) Has this system changed at all to reflect the changes to policy regarding members retaining employment with the CF (eg CANFORGEN 116/04 EXTENSION OF CLASS C RESERVE SERVICE FOR INJURY OR ILLNESS WHILE IN SDA/SDO)?

2) How does this system work for PRes?

3) In regards to the '2 choices' in the quoted text; 
      a) WRT option 1: my understanding of CF policy (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that all members must past fitness testing annually no matter the trade, so how does this effect an OT?  Would not the default setting for this be medical release, since, at present, I couldn't pass a fit test?  
      b) WRT option 2: what is the likelihood of an non-leadership rank (eg CPL) being offered employment retention with PCAT?

4) Can PCAT and/or Limitations be contested?  If I am given limitations in April, and I improve by September (or whenever) can I challenge the PCAT or is it, as the name states, "permanent"?

A few of my other questions were answered in some other threads, but just to clarify;
- Can members on PCAT / TCAT be promoted?  My understanding is "No"... especially to leadership ranks
- Can members on PCAT / TCAT be put on course? (eg. PLQ).  I figure the answer to this is "no" due to the physical limitations.  
Like I said, these questions have been answered, but I just wanted to clarify.  

Anyway, I'm starting to worry a bit about my options for staying in the forces.
I've been given some very generous options, including going back to college and retaining a class C or B contract for a while, and I plan on making the most of it... but, what happens after that?  I would like to remain in the CF even just as a class A reservist... Ideally, I would love to do another tour or CT to the RegF in a trade relating to my College ed (EME)... but it just doesn't seem to be in the cards.
I'm just looking at the long term and, in the way of my CF 'career', it looks pretty bleak.

Any thoughts on this?



BTW; I do intend on passing my issues up my CoC, I just want to go into this with some insight and information.


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## Gunner98 (12 Feb 2008)

Ref: DAOD 5023-1 Minimum Operational Standards Related to Universality of Service  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5023/1_e.asp

Period of Retention Subject to Employment Limitations: PRes 
the earlier of: 
- the period of the shortage or requirement described in the Retention Subject to Employment Limitations block; or 
- a period of three years.

The period of retention during which a CF member is subject to employment limitations only applies while the CF member is serving in his or her current component or sub-component and may not be transferred to another component or sub-component.

Career Implications:

Any period of retention subject to employment limitations is a transitional period of service leading to release from the Reg F or P Res. During this period the CF member is expected to perform all military duties except those related to the CF member’s employment limitations. During the period of retention, a CF member:

- remains liable for posting for service requirements only; 
- is not eligible for career courses (see DAOD 5031-8, Canadian Forces Professional Development); and 
- is only eligible for promotion if he or she meets the applicable promotion criteria.

Upon completion of a period of retention subject to employment limitations, a CF member is only eligible to be considered for a component or sub-component transfer to the Supp Res, Canadian Rangers or CIC.

This is the policy - extracted for PRes only, more info in Ref.

Some people will talk about 'accommodation' - this is the maximum 3-year period indicated above.  

You can have up to maximum of 4 TCat (1 x TCat and 3 6-month extensions) for a total of 2 years prior to being placed on PCat.


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## RHFC_piper (12 Feb 2008)

Frostnipped Elf said:
			
		

> Ref: DAOD 5023-1 Minimum Operational Standards Related to Universality of Service  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5023/1_e.asp



Thank you very much for the Reference... I'm really bad at finding these things on the DIN.  To me, the DIN is just a big mess of files in no discernible order... and since I don't/didn't know what I'm looking for, it only makes it worse.  Thank you again.




			
				Frostnipped Elf said:
			
		

> Some people will talk about 'accommodation' - this is the maximum 3-year period indicated above.
> 
> You can have up to maximum of 4 TCat (1 x TCat and 3 6-month extensions) for a total of 2 years prior to being placed on PCat.



hmmm.... after reading the REF; my options are looking bleaker and bleaker...  
So, with no leadership trg, and no chance of getting on a crse, I am basically a CFL... if I am retained, that is... or at least while I have PCAT restrictions.

This still leaves me the question of: Can a PCAT be contested and/or overturned if the member shows physical improvement?


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## RHFC_piper (12 Feb 2008)

Thank you for all the info     I guess I have some reading to do.

This will help a lot.  

Cheers. :cheers:


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## BernDawg (13 Feb 2008)

Hey Piper.  I am on PCAT and have been since I broke my legs in 93.  I was retained without restrictions in a different trade (was a grunt now a Const Tech).  So I guess you could say I know a little about the system.  You can be reassessed at any time just maintain good contact with the MO and if you can handle more physical stuff in the future let him know and they will schedule a medical and update your CAT. However this is a two way street.  If your conditions worsens then they will increase your CAT accordingly.
Shoot me a PM if you need more info.
Bern


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## PPCLI Guy (13 Feb 2008)

Piper,

If you need somone to go to bat for you, PM me - but I am pretty sure that there are plenty of Royals lining up to do exactly that.


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## RHFC_piper (13 Feb 2008)

I kinda had a feeling there had to be some process for reassessment for this, but I wanted to make sure and get some input from those who have 'been there, done that'.

Since I've started physio, I've been improving constantly.  Between working out at the gym with a sports therapy trainer and getting ultrasound therapy to break up scar tissue, thing have been getting better and better.  I have better flexibility, thanks to PNF stretching, than I had before I deployed, and the gym is really making a big difference in strength and endurance... I'm up to jogging, but I doubt I'd pass a beep test.  I'm sure I could do a 13K, but I think the fireman carry would wreak havoc on my back... but with this said, I'm sure I could get back up to the minimum requirements, and more, given time.
The issue I had was if the PCAT was, as in the name, permanent, then all this work would be for not, especially if I'm unable to do what I joined the army to do (even if it is just part time).  I don't mind being the unit recruiter (I have a fairly big office), I would just rather be with the rifle coy.

Unfortunately, most of my info comes from people who have been on PCAT and are now out because of it, so I was getting some pretty bleak perspectives.  It just seemed whenever I mentioned PCAT to anyone, they made it seem like I was pretty much done in the forces.
I'm glad to hear that this may not be the case. 

This is why I posted this here.... I just wanted to get some insight from members who may be on a PCAT and still serving. Thanks for the heads up, Bern.




			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Piper,
> 
> If you need somone to go to bat for you, PM me - but I am pretty sure that there are plenty of Royals lining up to do exactly that.



Thanks for the offer.   I actually have some very good NCO's and Officers looking after me at all levels (Unit, CBG and LFCA).  I'm confident that I will be well represented no matter what.  But I do appreciate the offer.  



This is what I love about the military family... and why I would never want to leave it... we always seem to be there for each other.  What other job would offer that kind of camaraderie??


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## tree hugger (13 Feb 2008)

I think the biggest thing you need to look at are the MEL's you're on and how they relate to universality of service.  I once asked to challenge the UofS/BFOR and it doesn't happen.  You've got to fight for more rehab time (TCAT) before they give you a PCAT.


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## Gunner98 (13 Feb 2008)

Piper,

Another ref which may already have been shown to you is below.  This policy replaced CANFORGEN 116/04. The key to this policy is the role of the Home Unit: 

CANFORGEN 174/07 CMP 076/07 271856Z NOV 07
EXTENSION OF CLASS C RESERVE SERVICE FOR PERSONNEL WHOSE INJURY OR ILLNESS WAS SUSTAINED ON SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. QR O ARTICLE 9.08 
B. CFAO 24-1 
C. DAOD 5018-2 
D. CANFORGEN 137/07 CMP 059/07 221816Z AUG 07 
E. CANFORGEN 116/04 ADMHRMIL 062 241749Z AUG 04 

AS GROWING NUMBERS OF RESERVISTS ARE INTEGRATED INTO ALL ASPECTS OF CF OPERATIONS, THE NEED FOR A NEW POLICY APPROACH DESIGNED TO BETTER MANAGE CARE, ADMINISTRATION, AND THE SUCCESSFUL REINTEGRATION INTO THE WORKFORCE OF THOSE INJURED WHILE ON SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE IS CLEAR. IAW REF D SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE CONSISTS OF: 

SERVICE IN A SPECIAL DUTY AREA (SDA) OR AS PART OF A SPECIAL DUTY OPERATION (SDO) 

TRAINING FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF SERVICE IN A SDA OR AS PART OF A SDO 

TRAVEL TO AND FROM A SDA OR SDO OR THE LOCATION OF THE TRAINING AND D. AUTHORIZED LEAVE DURING SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE 

UNDER AUTHORITY OF REF A, FOR THE PURPOSE OF EFFECTIVE REINTEGRATION INTO THE WORKFORCE, ALL RES FORCE PERSONNEL WHO SUSTAIN AN INJURY OR ILLNESS WHILE SERVING ON CLASS C SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE WILL BE ELIGIBLE FOR EXTENSION OF CLASS C SERVICE UP TO A MAXIMUM OF 24 MONTHS OR UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THE INDIVIDUAL IS EITHER TRANSFERRED TO THE CARE OF VETERANS AFFAIRS CANADA OR UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A MEDICAL OFFICER DECLARES, AND THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AGREES THAT THE INDIVIDUAL IS: 

MEDICALLY FIT AND ABLE TO RETURN TO DUTY OR 

ABLE TO RETURN TO AN EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION OR 

ABLE TO RETURN TO CIVILIAN EMPLOYMENT 

AS SOON AS RES FORCE PERSONNEL BECOME DISABLED AS A RESULT OF AN INJURY OR ILLNESS WHILE SERVING ON CLASS C SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE, THE EMPLOYING CO SHALL NOTIFY DCSA AND THE INDIVIDUAL S HOME UNIT CO OF THE DISABLING INJURY/ILLNESS VIA EMAIL OR MESSAGE, IAW REF B, AND FORWARD A CF 98 WITHIN 14 DAYS AS PER REF C 

IF THE INDIVIDUALS INCAPACITY IS PROJECTED BY A MO TO EXTEND BEYOND THE END OF THE CLASS C SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE, THE HOME UNIT CO IS TO ADVISE DCSA OF THE REQUIREMENT TO EXTEND THE PERIOD OF CLASS C SERVICE AND THE REQUIRED LENGTH OF THE EXTENSION. THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION WILL BE SENT TO DCSA:  
THE INDIVIDUALS PARTICULARS, INCL SN, RANK, NAME AND INIT 

THE OPERATION ON WHICH THE RESERVIST WAS SERVING AND CONFIRMATION THAT THE INDIVIDUAL WAS ON CLASS C SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE AT THE TIME OF INJURY/ILLNESS 

THE INDIVIDUAL S HOME UNIT AND CLASS C EMPLOYMENT UNIT 

CURRENT CLASS C TERMINATION DATE 

CONFIRMATION BY MO OF DATES OF ANTICIPATED INCAPACITATION 

DCSA WILL REVIEW THE SUBSTANTIATING DOCUMENTATION AND SUBMIT A RECOMMENDATION FOR CMP APPROVAL. ONCE THE EXTENSION OF CLASS C SERVICE IS APPROVED, DCSA WILL ISSUE A MESSAGE CONFIRMING AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXTENSION. FURTHER PERIODS OF CLASS C SERVICE MAY BE REQUESTED AND APPROVED AS REQUIRED FOR CONVALESCENCE TO A MAXIMUM OF 24 MONTHS FOR ALL EXTENSIONS  

NO EXTENSION WILL BE GRANTED AND AN EXTENSION ALREADY IN PLACE WOULD CEASE SHOULD THE INDIVIDUAL UNREASONABLY REFUSE PRESCRIBED, MEDICAL TREATMENT. OBVIOUSLY, AN EXTENSION OF SERVICE ON CLASS C WOULD CEASE SHOULD THE INDIVIDUAL RELEASE FROM THE CF PRIOR TO THE END OF THAT EXTENSION 

IT IS RECOGNIZED THAT THIS EMPLOYMENT POLICY APPLIES ONLY TO A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PERSONNEL WITHIN THE RESERVE FORCE. A BROADER CF POLICY ON CARE AND EMPLOYMENT OF INJURED CF PERSONNEL IS UNDER DEVELOPMENT AND WILL BE ISSUED IN DUE COURSE


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## Gunner98 (13 Feb 2008)

Piper,

  A PCat with MEL does not always lead to Release, as stated by others you future employment is guided by the Medical Employment Limitations (MEL) and DMCARM makes the final decision. A change in PCat does not mean that you automatically no longer meet the Generic and Occupation Task Standards.

A few more refs:
CF H Svcs Gp Order 5020-7
http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/health/policies/word/engraph/5020-07_e.doc
Excerpt
Para 5.	A change of medical category below the minimum standard required for a member's MOC will normally be supported by a current consultant's opinion. *The consultant shall have been asked to describe the appropriate employment limitations * upon which the base/wing surgeon shall determine the medical category. It is the referring MO's responsibility to raise the appropriate occupational questions for the consultant to answer, especially where the consultant is a civilian with little knowledge of the Canadian Forces. The consultant's report shall be submitted along with the CF 2033 or CF 2017 and the CF 2088.

CFP 154
Excerpt:
Chapter 3, para 9 Temporary Grading
As soon as the member's condition is stable or is *not expected to significantly improve in the foreseeable future*, a permanent category should be assigned, even before the end of the 12-month period of temporary category.

Assessing Medical Fitness http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/engraph/cfp154_chap2_e.asp 
Min Med Standards - http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/engraph/cfp154_annexEappen1-2_e.pdf
Generic Task Statements - http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/GTS7_e.pdf
Infantry Task Statements http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_task031_e.pdf


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## aecami (20 May 2009)

How much weight does the MOs and BSurg's recommendation for MEL's carry?  I was told recommendations were made that would give me G3O3, but that D Med Pol makes the final decision on the category.  Does D Med Pol often reduce categories beyond what has been recommended?


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## BernDawg (20 May 2009)

Disclaimer - "In my experience"  Generally no. DMedPol does not change the MELs as described by the MO and BSurg.  But I am only familiar with a few cases my own included.


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## aecami (21 May 2009)

Disclaimer Noted...but still good information to know.  Do you if an AR (MEL) is done for every PCat or only ones that place the member below the minimum standards for their trade?

Thank you.


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## dapaterson (21 May 2009)

If a after assignment of a PCAT you're still within the standards for your trade there's no issue - you meet the standards.  It's only once you are below the needed standards that any review action is necessary.


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## aecami (21 May 2009)

Thank you for the information..it helps clear up some confusion.

Much appreciated.


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## RHFC_piper (8 Jun 2009)

Well... I've reached the last, and most treacherous, hurtle in the TCAT/PCAT/MEL track... The AR/MEL.

Without going into detail; I have been assign MELs which essentially don't meet universality of service, and have be recommended for medical release.  As it stands; my assisting officer and I are fighting this, specifically because I can perform most, if not all, of the duties in the limitations.  To do this, I have to produce a "written representation" to state my point/case for staying in the forces... which shouldn't be a huge problem... my only issue is that some of the limitations require some definition. Thus the reason for posting here.
And, I figured, if anyone is interested; here are the categories; (A-MD-154-000/FP-000, APPENDIX 1, ANNEX D)



> 1.	Must be able to perform high-crawl over a distance of 45 m and low-crawl over a distance of 30 m.
> 
> 2.	Must be able to dig a personal trench
> 
> ...





> Stress factors
> 
> 1.	Must be able to perform duties in a military environment, including but not limited to:
> a.	Frequent movement, relocation, isolation, and temporary duty away from home or unit.
> ...




The following requires clarification:

Under Physical Factors;

# 1. What is a "high-crawl" and what is a "low-crawl"?  I'm guessing a high-crawl is what used to be called the "monkey run" or perhaps crawling on all fours? and the low-crawl is the "leopard crawl"... can anyone shed some light on this?

# 5. I realize this isn't an issue for land forces, but if I'm going to prove I can do one, I want to be able to do all; what is a "Stoke's litter"?

Besides those, everything else is fairly self explanatory... any insight on those two would be greatly appreciated.


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## PMedMoe (8 Jun 2009)

This is a Stokes Litter:







Basically, any "basket" type litter used to evacuate casualties where a stretcher isn't able to be used.


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## RHFC_piper (8 Jun 2009)

Thanks, PMedMoe...  Now I have to find one, load it up, and carry it up some stairs... I even know of some stairs that are as narrow and steep as those found on a ship, right in the Cambridge Armoury (from the parade square to the balcony).
Not that I'd ever have to do this in real life, but I want to be able to say I can if I had to.


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## blacktriangle (8 Jun 2009)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Well... I've reached the last, and most treacherous, hurtle in the TCAT/PCAT/MEL track... The AR/MEL.
> 
> Without going into detail; I have been assign MELs which essentially don't meet universality of service, and have be recommended for medical release.  As it stands; my assisting officer and I are fighting this, specifically because I can perform most, if not all, of the duties in the limitations.  To do this, I have to produce a "written representation" to state my point/case for staying in the forces... which shouldn't be a huge problem... my only issue is that some of the limitations require some definition. Thus the reason for posting here.
> And, I figured, if anyone is interested; here are the categories; (A-MD-154-000/FP-000, APPENDIX 1, ANNEX D)
> ...



Well I sure hope you don't get released on account of any of those...as I'm sure we all know a few people in the forces that cannot safely or effectively operate a personal weapon or communicate via radio...and yet they still have jobs!

Seriously though, best of luck.


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## armyvern (8 Jun 2009)

RHFC_piper said:
			
		

> Well... I've reached the last, and most treacherous, hurtle in the TCAT/PCAT/MEL track... The AR/MEL.
> 
> Without going into detail; I have been assign MELs which essentially don't meet universality of service, and have be recommended for medical release.  As it stands; my assisting officer and I are fighting this, specifically because I can perform most, if not all, of the duties in the limitations.  To do this, I have to produce a "written representation" to state my point/case for staying in the forces... which shouldn't be a huge problem... my only issue is that some of the limitations require some definition. Thus the reason for posting here.
> And, I figured, if anyone is interested; here are the categories; (A-MD-154-000/FP-000, APPENDIX 1, ANNEX D)



RHFC_Piper,

I've also acted as the AO for a member who was on their 2nd "accomodation" (ie unfit further service due to being below specs). They could also complete most of the tasks. We successfully filed an overturning of the accomodation in that member's case and mbrs career then continued onwards (with a back-dated promotion as soon as the accomodation and PCat were lifted. It took us a long time, but there is always room for improvement in one's condition ... keep yourself working hard at that and keep a posotive attitude.

If you have any questions/concerns that I may be able to assist you with - fire me off a PM.

Sorry, I'm only just seeing this thread for the 1st time I believe.


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## Strike (8 Jun 2009)

RHFC_Piper,

When you do the stretcher carry make sure that they spread the weight evenly on the stretcher.  If it is all on your end you are essentially carrying that load by yourself as opposed to simulating the weight of a person which would be more balanced.

I recall carrying out the baseline tests for the stretcher carry and they had a stretcher rigged like a wheelbarrow with all the weight on the end of the carrier.  We weren't allowed gloves.  Bring them if you can.

Good luck!


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## Sea King Tech (19 Jun 2009)

Hello, 4 questions:

-What happens after I am assessed a PCAT?
-With an OSI, is this any different in the eyes of the military from a physical injury?  
-What are the timelines?
-This procedure is the same for everyone in the reg force starting the moment they swear unlimited liability to HM The Queen, correct?

Thanks


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## aecami (14 Apr 2010)

I have a further question about PCATs.  I am on a PCAT, which meets the minimum standard for my current trade, and I am being retained.  Am I able to be promoted while on this PCAT?  My understanding was that I am, because I still meet the med standards for my trade.  Normally I would look this up myself in the CFAOs, but because of common-look-and-feel they are not available.  If anyone can send me a copy of CFAO 11-6 I would appreciate it.

Thanks!


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## Cleared Hot (14 Apr 2010)

CFAO 11-6 doesn't actually say you can't be promoted, it only says an officer's promotion "may" be deferred or denied but then again check out  DAOD 5023-1 where it states...

Career Implications
Any period of retention subject to employment limitations is a transitional period of service leading to release from the Reg F or P Res. During this period the CF member is expected to perform all military duties except those related to the CF member's employment limitations. During the period of retention, a CF member:

■remains liable for posting for service requirements only;
■is not eligible for career courses (see DAOD 5031-8, Canadian Forces Professional Development); and
■*is only eligible for promotion if he or she meets the applicable promotion criteria.*

Upon completion of a period of retention subject to employment limitations, a CF member is only eligible to be considered for a component or sub-component transfer to the Supp Res, Canadian Rangers or COATS.


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## armyvern (14 Apr 2010)

what's next? said:
			
		

> I have a further question about PCATs.  I am on a PCAT, which meets the minimum standard for my current trade, and I am being retained.  Am I able to be promoted while on this PCAT?  My understanding was that I am, because I still meet the med standards for my trade.  Normally I would look this up myself in the CFAOs, but because of common-look-and-feel they are not available.  If anyone can send me a copy of CFAO 11-6 I would appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks!



There should be a copy of it on your pers file and you should have received a copy of it when you signed it.

Does it state: "No career restrictions."

I too am on a PCat; it lists what I can not do. It also states "member requires frequent specialist follow-up not more than once every 6 months. *No career restrictions*."

"No career restrictions" is a pretty important bit. Part of the criteria for promotion is: "member is not subject to any career restrictions".


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## PMedMoe (15 Apr 2010)

I agree with Vern.  I have one friend on a PCAT similar to Vern's "No career restrictions" and another who is "employable but not deployable".  Only the second one is being "retained" and is not eligible for promotions, career courses, etc.


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## ArmyRick (15 Apr 2010)

Not deployable is a Geographical restriction. Part of your med category numbers.


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## PMedMoe (15 Apr 2010)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Not deployable is a Geographical restriction. Part of your med category numbers.



Yes, I know that.  "Employable not deployable" is just a common phrase used to describe some retentions.  Usually for those who don't understand the med cat numbers.


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## CountDC (15 Apr 2010)

same - retained without career restrictions.

Was a surprise though when they passed me the nice letter that I had been under AR/MEL.  Wasn't even aware of it until they sent the decision letter to the unit.  What a shock it would have been to get a letter out of the blue that you are being released. The doctor didn't even tell me my cat was changed.


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## Chewie (20 Jan 2011)

It depends on how they word your PCAT...you can have a PCAT and still be employable providing you meet your job spec.

OSI is a recognized illness and is treated as such...with all the benifits and care etc....

These programs are considered living breaching documents and can change for the better or the worse...


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## the 48th regulator (20 Jan 2011)

Sea King Tech said:
			
		

> Hello, 4 questions:
> 
> -What happens after I am assessed a PCAT?


If you do not meet Universality of Sevice, you will be release under a medical release 3(A) or 3(B)



			
				Sea King Tech said:
			
		

> -With an OSI, is this any different in the eyes of the military from a physical injury?



Treated as any other injury.



			
				Sea King Tech said:
			
		

> -What are the timelines?



If you do not meet UOS, then you are looking at 6-9 months until the process of a Medical release comences.



			
				Sea King Tech said:
			
		

> -This procedure is the same for everyone in the reg force starting the moment they swear unlimited liability to HM The Queen, correct?



Yes.



			
				Sea King Tech said:
			
		

> Thanks



Nemo Problema.  They are actualkly very good questions.

dileas

tess


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## Wookilar (21 Jan 2011)

Sea King Tech said:
			
		

> -What happens after I am assessed a PCAT?



Have you been assessed a PCAT? Just because the Base Surgeon/MO *recommends* a PCAT does not make it so. It still has to be approved by DMCA.

Now generally this is just a formality, but I have seen 1 (in the last 5 years or so) that was not approved.

Nothing release wise will happen until approval comes down from Ottawa. Then the process starts. I have seen approval take 6-8 months, I've seen it take 2 months.

Wook


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## krustyrl (21 Jan 2011)

Seen it take considerably longer than 6-8 months too.  Just sayin'........


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Jan 2011)

Barring some catastrophic, obvious injury, is there also not a mechanism where you have to go through a couple of TCATS first, before getting a PCAT? Thought I heard that somewhere. Where's the SME?


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## Kat Stevens (21 Jan 2011)

I spent 3 years on TCATs before a PCAT was "awarded".


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## OldSolduer (21 Jan 2011)

If you will allow me to weigh in, the process can be somewhat laborius and frustrating.

The general rule of thumb is that a member may be placed on a TCat for 6 months. After reassessement by the MO, the member may either come off TCat or be placed on another TCat. If it is another six month TCat, this may trigger a posting to the JPSU. The member will then undergo an Administrative Review - Medical Employment Limitations aka AR/MEL at DMCA Ottawa.

The AR may recommend the member to be retained with or without career restrictions, or released. In some cases, a member may undergo a OT to be retained. 

In the case of release, the member receives a disclosure package. The member may make representation to DMCA within 15 working days to either make a case as to why they should be retained OR to change/amend the release item.


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## klacquement (21 Jan 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Barring some catastrophic, obvious injury, is there also not a mechanism where you have to go through a couple of TCATS first, before getting a PCAT? Thought I heard that somewhere. Where's the SME?



My PCAT was given almost immediately after a regular medical.  My vision had deteriorated during the time between medicals, no injury required.  About a month later (time for two re-tests), a PCAT recommendation was sent off; about 4 months later I was signing a "Change of permanent medical category" document.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Jan 2011)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> If you will allow me to weigh in, the process can be somewhat laborius and frustrating.
> 
> The general rule of thumb is that a member may be placed on a TCat for 6 months. After reassessement by the MO, the member may either come off TCat or be placed on another TCat. If it is another six month TCat, this may trigger a posting to the JPSU. The member will then undergo an Administrative Review - Medical Employment Limitations aka AR/MEL at DMCA Ottawa.
> 
> ...



Thanks Jim. That's the clarification I was looking for.


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## OldSolduer (21 Jan 2011)

Not a problem. Just be aware that there is no "cookie cutter" solution to each particular problem/concern.

This is a general rule of thumb.


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## medicineman (21 Jan 2011)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Barring some catastrophic, obvious injury, is there also not a mechanism where you have to go through a couple of TCATS first, before getting a PCAT? Thought I heard that somewhere. Where's the SME?



In theory, you should  go through a couple of TCats prior to a PCat being initiated...however, like you said, something catastrophic could land you the instant PCat or something that is drawn out could get TCat extensions.  It largely depends on the condition, if it's improving or will likely improve, or if it's plateaued or never likely to change for the better and hwo much follow up is required.  If it continues to improve, a TCat extension is often warranted and approved...if it's plateaued, then they start to look at the PCat route.  And yes, it's a long drawn out affair...D Med Pol is not a fast moving place; it takes awhile to get through files.  When D Med Pol makes a decision vis a vis the actual numbers and restrictions, then DMCA gets in on the game to decide career actions, if any.  You basically have to get settled in for an uncomfortable wait.

Hope that helps a bit.

MM


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## clericalchronicals (3 Feb 2011)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> If you do not meet Universality of Sevice, you will be release under a medical release 3(A) or 3(B)



Just a question, when was the last time anyone saw a 3A release?  I've been clerking for almost 10 years now and still have yet to see one....and that was having worked in a release section...


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## the 48th regulator (3 Feb 2011)

clericalchronicals said:
			
		

> Just a question, when was the last time anyone saw a 3A release?  I've been clerking for almost 10 years now and still have yet to see one....and that was having worked in a release section...




Good question.

Here is one for you, have you heard of a 5(F) Disabled?

This is a conundrum that I have been finding the legalities for this past month.

dileas

tess


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## OldSolduer (3 Feb 2011)

Yes. This is a term used for someone who would normally be 5F - what ever the terminology is, but because of underlying conditions (OSIs) are deemed disabled.


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## clericalchronicals (3 Feb 2011)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Good question.
> 
> Here is one for you, have you heard of a 5(F) Disabled?
> 
> ...



5F?  Something not right there.  5F is Unsuitable for further service, certainly not something you would use for disbility, that would have to be a 3B.

Random.


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## OldSolduer (3 Feb 2011)

clericalchronicals said:
			
		

> 5F?  Something not right there.  5F is Unsuitable for further service, certainly not something you would use for disbility, that would have to be a 3B.
> 
> Random.



I'm at home riight now and don't have the expert. You can use 5F deemed disabled. Its for those "in between cases" where the proof for a 3b isn't quite there.....but there clearly is something wrong. It allows the soldier to gain access to some benefits that they aren't entitled to under 5f.
If a member is to be released 5f, and there is clear cut evidence that there is a relationship between the behavior and his underlying condition, the release item may be changed to 3b.


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## the 48th regulator (3 Feb 2011)

Aha,

That is the Crux,

If you are disabled, and are released it is under the Medical 3 category.  Further to that, I have proof that the CMP recommended anyone being released under a 5F is to be reviewed by DCSM, in that if there is reason that the member is suffering from an OSI, the benefit of the doubt goes to wards the member and he/she will be released under a 3B.

Been doing quite a bit of leg work, and hope to have all the cards in a row when I present this to my chain of command.

dileas

tess


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## clericalchronicals (3 Feb 2011)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Aha,
> 
> That is the Crux,
> 
> ...



Let me help that leg work along.  Ref QR&O 15, table.  

Item 5F and I quote "Unsuitable for Further Service - Applies to the release of an officer or non-commissioned member who, either wholly or chiefly because of factors *within his control*, develops personal weakness or behaviour or has domestic or other personal problems that seriously impair his usefulness to or impose an excessive administrative burden on the Canadian Forces."

Item 3B and again I quote "Medical Grounds - On medical grounds being disabled and unfit to perform his duties in his present trade or employment, *and not otherwise advantageously employable under existing service policy*."

So, no, if it is a disability as it's definition is known to National Defence, then no, it is impossible for someone under those circumstances to be released under Item 5F.  Even is 3B was shaky ground for that class of release, then Item 3A would come into play: "On medical grounds being disabled and unfit to perform duties as a member of the Service."

And yes, I do have the legal definition of "Disability": Sourced from the Veterans Affairs Canada Charter

1.04 - Definition of Disability
"Disability" is defined in subsection 3( 1) of the Pension Act as follows: "disability means the loss or lessening of the power to will and to do any normal mental or physical act;"

As you can tell, "the loss or lessening of the power to will", not something within a persons control.

Cheers!


----------



## the 48th regulator (3 Feb 2011)

Now you know the battle that I have been building up to!!

5F Disabled is being used, and has been for many years, as I have official confirmation from DCSM.  This is a blatant contradictory of the QR&O 15, as you have pointed out.

dileas

tess


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## clericalchronicals (3 Feb 2011)

Release items seem to be one of the hardest to interpret policies...never really understood why, well, I guess people get wrapped up in the titles...


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## the 48th regulator (4 Feb 2011)

clericalchronicals said:
			
		

> Release items seem to be one of the hardest to interpret policies...never really understood why, well, I guess people get wrapped up in the titles...



Apart from benefits, it is respect.

dileas

tess


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## Zoomie01 (14 Feb 2011)

Have a question for the medical folks.  Here is the background.  Last year I had a heart attack (MI I think it was called).  long and the short of it was had a dye test done and it showed an artery blocked.  Stint was inserted.  2 weeks sick leave followed by 2 weeks light duties(1/2 days) than back to work.  I was put on a T Cat .  before Christmas, seen the Cardiologist who did a stress test and it came out fine, the Cardiologist does not want to see me any more.  Went in to the MIR to get taken off the TCAT and the paper work is about to be submitted.  All my symptons (I guess that is what you would call it are good) cholesterol is good, no more epsiodes other than that 1 bad day, PT test completed, Exempt etc).I am still on medication.   I am a Class A reservist with the occassional Class B contratct (less than 180 days).   My question is what can I expect from all of this.  Will my medical Cat be turned into a PCat because of the procedure I had done or is there a possibility I can get it lifted completely.  The Dr. at the MIR recommended it be lifted, but the final decision gets made with DMed Pol.  Would like to get in one more tour before I call it quits.

I know it is hard to give an answer without all the info and the file in front of you, but just looking for comments.  Thanks much


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## Armymedic (14 Feb 2011)

Theoretically speaking, you would be put on PCat if your condition is chronic (which it is) and if you need specialist medical follow up more frequently than every 6 months. This would make you a G3. If you are unable to complete fitness testing i.e. Expres test, or any part of it, that would make you O3.

If there is no "negative" results of the procedure, other than the need for annual specialist follow up, I would hazard to guess, and it is only an opinion, that your category most likely would stay the same as it was before.

I say again, just my opinion, and best guess at that. The proper answer is above my pay grade and expertise.


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## Zoomie (14 Feb 2011)

There are pers out there with pace-makers that fly CF aircraft.  If you come out clear in all the tests, you should be fine for your med category.


----------



## Strike (14 Feb 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> There are pers out there with pace-makers that fly CF aircraft.  If you come out clear in all the tests, you should be fine for your med category.



Hey!  I know that guy!  He, of course, was restricted to flying a multiple-crew aircraft, just in case.  But as far as I know he's never had any more problems.


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## ModlrMike (14 Feb 2011)

Rider Pride is correct in his summation of your situation. Likely the only sticking point will be the follow up required.


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## Zoomie01 (14 Feb 2011)

Ref the last comment, I don't remember the exact wording from the civilian cardioligist, but it basically stated he doesn't need to see me again.  I know about the requirement for the 6 month follow up as we had a guy in the unit who went on a PCat because his specialist said he needed to see him every 6 months.  Was relieved when mine said he did not want to see me.

appreciate all the comments so far


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## CombatDoc (15 Feb 2011)

Each patient is evaluated on a case-by-case basis, so nobody can give you a definitive answer.  However, none of the responses that you have received have mentioned the term "risk factors".  In other words, what risks did you have that caused you to have an MI, the big 4 being high blood pressure, diabetes, high cholesterol and smoking.  Family history and your age also need to be taken into account.  You've noted that your cholesterol is OK, but what about the others?   For example, if you're a smoker you are still at risk of another MI and would be non-deployable IMO.

D Med Pol will determine your final med cat, but a common one in your type of situation assuming risk factors are controlled would be:
G3  Requires more frequent medical follow-up (not more often than every 6 months).
O3  Requires enhanced pre-deployment medical screening

Good luck with your category review.


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## oscarmu25 (31 Mar 2012)

Hey everyone, Last monday, i went to the Health service det Vancouver to do  VOT medical update, I told the Physician i have minor ADD diagnosed from childhood, which does not affect my military duty. And i also stated in the questionnaire that i could do every physical actitivties that the questionnaire stated, and the doctor decided to give me a PCAT O3 G3 which slowed down my VOT. They told me, in order to successfully VOT, i have to wait for ottawa respond, which takes minimum 6months.  This PCAT crap has depressed me really much because it prohibited me from any deployment, exercise and summer tasking therefore i have quit my university plan next year due to lack of income. Can anyone please tell me, why the doctor gives me a PCAT, O3 G3 which restricted me from all my military activities when I only have ADD?
Emailscarmu25@hotmail.com
778-821-1314


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## George Wallace (31 Mar 2012)

NO ONE here can tell you that.  Why don't/didn't you ask your doctor.  

You do realize that this is (Read bottom of page):

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines | Legal Notice | Privacy
       Unofficial site, not associated with DND.


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## Armymedic (31 Mar 2012)

You should have asked the Physician why. 

Each portion of that category is given for a reason.  Here is the criteria for his decision:

O3 - assigned to the member who has some specific employment limitation(s) which can be clearly and specifically detailed, and which prevent the member from fully meeting the Generic or the MOC task statements.

G3 - assigned to the member:

a.  who is considered likely fit for field exercises, sea environment, isolated postings and operational taskings for periods up to six (6) months;
b. who has a known requirement for scheduled medical service (see definitions in Chapter 2, 4.c.) by an MO but no more frequently than every six (6) months;
c.  whose limitations resulting from a known medical condition do not pose an unacceptable risk to the health and/or safety of the individual or fellow workers in the operational/work environment;
d. who may require and take prescription medications, the unexpected discontinuance (unavailability) of which will not create an unacceptable risk to the member's health and/or safety; and/or
e. who may require a medical evaluation before being sent on the tasking.

And that it is permanent, means the condition will not improve in 1-2 yrs.

This is for information only. More interesting reading can be found here:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pd/CFP-PFC-154/default-eng.asp

I don't know, want to know, nor actually care about your case. But as someone who works in this field, I believe you should at least be armed with this information so you may go back and ask the right questions.


----------



## Future Pensioner (24 Aug 2012)

I am seeking some assistance from people on this forum for a rather complex situation that I am currently trying to grapple with.  Any assistance, advice and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you in advance.

*BACKGROUND*

-  I have been on class B for over 20 years.
-  Approximately 3 years ago, I was "diagnosed" with 2 specific medical conditions (that developed during my 20 years of class B service) which caused me to be placed on a TCAT.  After visits to a specialist and a few renewals of my TCAT, the MO finally recommended a PCAT.  My file was sent to Ottawa for review approx. 1.5 years ago.  It recently came back and I was assigned a PCAT and MELs which put me in breach of the Universality of Service. 
-  My file has been sent to the Area HQ about a month ago for them to begin an AR to determine my “fate”.  I have been told by a number of sources that it is quite possible that I will be released 3b.  I have not yet heard from them in regards to it.
-  Recently, as a result of 2 units amalgamating, my current class B was terminated effective 31 Aug 12.
-  I applied for and was the successful candidate for one of the “new” class B position in the new “amalgamated” unit.  My Unit sent my name to Brigade as the successful candidate and requested auth from the Area to employ me on a 3 year class B contract, effective 01 Sep 12.

*ISSUE*

I have just been informed by Brigade, that I cannot be offered a new contract or given an extension of my current contract as I am on a PCAT that potentially puts me in breach of the Universality of Service and that I have not completed an EPRES test or BFT in a number of years (as a result of my medical conditions).  I have been informed that I am not being released and that I can continue to employed on class A service.

*QUESTIONS*

It appears to be that the only reason I am being denied a new contract/extension is due to my “disability”.  Is this possible?  Are there not policies in place to provide for extensions until the AR process has been completed and I am either released 3b or allowed to continue employment with ‘no career restrictions”?

Will it affect any “entitlements” if and when my 3b release comes, that I will, by then, be on class A service vice class B service?


----------



## Haggis (24 Aug 2012)

In that you applied for and won a competition for a "new" contract (your words), this is not an extension.    If you were being considered for extension in your old position number, then certain latitude exists for the chain of command to accomodate your medical condition until the AR-MEL decision is rendered.  You are not being extended if this is a "new" position with a new position number. You must meet all the requirements of the new position such as medical and physical fitness.


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## Future Pensioner (24 Aug 2012)

Haggis said:
			
		

> In that you applied for and won a competition for a "new" contract (your words), this is not an extension.    If you were being considered for extension in your old position number, then certain latitude exists for the chain of command to accomodate your medical condition until the AR-MEL decision is rendered.  You are not being extended if this is a "new" position with a new position number. You must meet all the requirements of the new position such as medical and physical fitness.




My apologies for the confusion.  Brigade has indicated that they will not offer a new contract *AND* they will not extend my current one to accomodate my medical condition until the AR-MEL decision is rendered.


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## Haggis (24 Aug 2012)

Future Pensioner said:
			
		

> Brigade has indicated that they will not offer a new contract *AND* they will not extend my current one to accomodate my medical condition until the AR-MEL decision is rendered.



What Brigade should've said was " they* cannot * not offer a new contract *because you do not meet the position requirements * ......"


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## Future Pensioner (24 Aug 2012)

Haggis said:
			
		

> What Brigade should've said was " they* cannot * not offer a new contract *because you do not meet the position requirements * ......"



I appreciate the responses.  What about an extension of my current contract until the AR process is complete?


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## Haggis (24 Aug 2012)

Future Pensioner said:
			
		

> I appreciate the responses.  What about an extension of my current contract until the AR process is complete?




It's about the position you are in now.  CF Mil Pers Instr 20-04 para 4.3 states:

"All reservists serving on a period of Class "B" Reserve Service shall be held against a Reserve Force Establishment position.  When the position has an expiration date, the duration of the Class "B" Reserve Service shall not extend beyond the expiration date."

So, if your current position ceases to exist on 31 Aug 12 due to the amalgamation you mentioned, then, no, you cannot be extended.


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## Grunt_031 (27 Aug 2012)

> Will it affect any “entitlements” if and when my 3b release comes, that I will, by then, be on class A service vice class B service?



I am pretty sure you will be on Class "Civi" Service. Release from the forces is to civi land. The only other option I can see is CIC service.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Aug 2012)

You'd think that after 20 years on Class B, you'd have had things sorted by now. Never knowing when the axe was going to fall, a backup plan should have been a priority.

Maybe if you'd spent those 20 years in the Regs........

I don't mean to sound crass, but 20 YEARS Cl B? I hope you have a civvie business or something going on the outside.

Good luck in your new career.

Hey, you can always buy back your pension, right?


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## wesleyd (27 Aug 2012)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. If you cannot meet the universality of service requirements you can't be employed. PCAT most times is release, unless you can prove you are fit for service, this would include passing an Expres/BFT test. If your injuries were caused by service you may be intitled to some benifits from DVA. Good luck.


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## fraserdw (27 Aug 2012)

You got 20 years service, you should have a good pension if you bought back.  You are being released medically and if your condition is due to service you got another pension.  IF you have not bought back and your condition is not military related, then I hope you had a plan, you certainly had the time to plan.  The military is not a charity and do not listen to all that "look after the troops" crap, it only applies to hay box line ups and unit smoker beer issues.  The rest of your career is your own problem.


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## DAA (27 Aug 2012)

Future Pensioner said:
			
		

> *ISSUE*
> 
> I have just been informed by Brigade, that I cannot be offered a new contract or given an extension of my current contract as I am on a PCAT that potentially puts me in breach of the Universality of Service and that I have not completed an EPRES test or BFT in a number of years (as a result of my medical conditions).  I have been informed that I am not being released and that I can continue to employed on class A service.
> 
> ...



The person has come here for advice, not to be slammed for what he did or didn't do with regards to career choices!  So here is my  :2c: on your issue:

a.  you need to look at what the original duration of the Class B offer was for (ie; how many years) and whether or not it included the opportunity for an extension, straight up or otherwise.  Class B positions have to be "re-advertised" at the time of their expiry but if an extension option is indicated, the max you can serve is 6 continuous years, after which, the position MUST be re-advertised;

b.  what I find strange, is that they are going to employ you on "Class A" as opposed to releasing you outright.  Something is definitely wrong with that picture.  If you can't do Class B due to medical, then you sure as heck can't do Class A either.  You may want to go and have a chat with your local JPSU/IPSC Unit as, believe it or not, they DO look after Reserve Force personnel.  This may be your only option for extending your period of service until an AR decision is rendered.  Regretably, pers on Class B do not have the same type of job protection afforded to a member of the Regular Force.

If you want "case specific" guidance/advice, PM me with your DWAN email and I will have a look at it.


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## Future Pensioner (28 Aug 2012)

DAA - thanks for your understanding of my post.

I have spoken with the IPSU and, regrettably, they were not much help with the specifics of remaining on full time service until the AR has been completed (at this time it has not even started yet).  

They were, however, helpful in providing some advice on what happens if and when I receive my 3b release, which I am grateful for.

I suppose my situation is mostly the result of "bad timing", but it would sure be nice if I could remain on "full time" service (either with and extension to my current contract or being offerred a new contract) until the AR is complete and a decision is made either way.

You also hit the nail on the head - it seems strange that they will let me continue to perform my job on class A with my current MELs, but not on class B.


----------



## aesop081 (28 Aug 2012)

Having a valid PT test is a requirement for class B employment is it not ?


----------



## Robert0288 (28 Aug 2012)

It has on any contract I've been on.  Also as far as I know Class A does not require a valid fitness test.


----------



## Future Pensioner (28 Aug 2012)

Thanks - I understand all the requirements in regards to fitness testing - but my MELs currently exempt me from fitness testing.

I am not looking at getting around any of the requirements, but as I understand it, this is what the AR is suppose to determine - what the MELs mean for my career.


----------



## aesop081 (28 Aug 2012)

Future Pensioner said:
			
		

> Thanks - I understand all the requirements in regards to fitness testing - but my MELs currently exempt me from fitness testing.



I am not entirely familiar with reserve issues and maybe i am looking at it wrong but since you are medically restricted from doing a fitness test, you do not have "pass" or "exempt" as a result and thus do not meet the requirement for class B employment.

No ?


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Aug 2012)

Future Pensioner said:
			
		

> I am not looking at getting around any of the requirements, but as I understand it, this is what the AR is suppose to determine - what the MELs mean for my career.



Unfortunately, Cl B is rather heartless in this regard. They can't give you a new contract since you can't/don't have a PT test, regardless of the reason. If your AR comes back and allows you to complete a modified EXPRES or other acceptable fitness testing, I'm sure your unit would love to have your experience back. Until then though, looks like their hands are tied and you're out of a job.


----------



## Paladium (28 Aug 2012)

You case seems to be very tricky and you should talk tot the JPSU/IPSC again.

The problem as i see it is that when the decision comes down - do your entitlement differ because you are now no longer on Class B? you know having worked over 180 days on full time paid service.  Ask them as well if the release is medical will you have priority status for hiring into the Public Service and are you eligible for retraining (reg force members get 75% of their Pay for up to 2 years - maybe you are eligible.

Ask the JPSU if it is worthwhile contacting SISSIP.  Have you been sent your disclosure package from the Med Board in Ottawa yet.  DO you have a Case Manager - if not ask the JPSU/IPSC about that. 

Go on a SCAN seminar in the fall - contact the BPSO office and see if they have any company looking for military employers.

Competing for a CIC position as was recommended earlier was a good one.

Find out if there are any implications due to your contract having ended and if so is there anything you can do about it?

Good luck


----------



## George Wallace (28 Aug 2012)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> It has on any contract I've been on.  Also as far as I know Class A does not require a valid fitness test.



Yes and No.  LFCA has an on again, off again, policy that Class A should have completed a valid Fitness test.  At the same time, any Class A member who desires to go on any course, is required to have a up to date Fitness Test completed.  

So, in the end, if you want to progress and be employed in the Reserves, you should have completed a valid Fitness Test.


----------



## Jarnhamar (28 Aug 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Having a valid PT test is a requirement for class B employment is it not ?



I've seen that rule shuffled around more than once.


----------



## aesop081 (28 Aug 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I've seen that rule shuffled around more than once.



2 wrongs don't make a right.


----------



## Haggis (28 Aug 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yes and No.  LFCA has an on again, off again, policy that Class A should have completed a valid Fitness test.  At the same time, any Class A member who desires to go on any course, is required to have a up to date Fitness Test completed.
> 
> So, in the end, if you want to progress and be employed in the Reserves, you should have completed a valid Fitness Test.



Army policy (not LFCA) is that any Class A soldier who is proceeding on a Class B over 180 days, is to be promoted or is to assume a CO/RSM position must have a valid fitness test.  The Army standard is the LFCPFS.  If said soldier is proceeding on a Class B over 180 days outside the Army, the soldier must have, at least, a valid EXPRES test.

There is no other requirement for a Class A soldier to maintain a valid fitness test result EXCEPT that there are numerous short notice and higher level taskings/opportunities which have a valid fitness test as a prerequisite.  So, as George Wallace wisely said, it's in your best interest to ensure that your fitness test result is ALWAYS up-to-date, regardless of the regulatory requirement to do so while on Class A service.


----------



## ModlrMike (28 Aug 2012)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Army policy (not LFCA) is that any Class A soldier who is proceeding on a Class B over 180 days, is to be promoted or is to assume a CO/RSM position must have a valid fitness test.  The Army standard is the LFCPFS.  If said soldier is proceeding on a Class B over 180 days outside the Army, the soldier must have, at least, a valid EXPRES test.
> 
> There is no other requirement for a Class A soldier to maintain a valid fitness test result EXCEPT that there are numerous short notice and higher level taskings/opportunities which have a valid fitness test as a prerequisite.  So, as George Wallace wisely said, it's in your best interest to ensure that your fitness test result is ALWAYS up-to-date, regardless of the regulatory requirement to do so while on Class A service.



By contrast as a Class A sailor, I have to maintain a valid EXPRES result at all times.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (28 Aug 2012)

Paladium said:
			
		

> Go on a SCAN seminar in the fall -





We offer* Second Career * Assistance to personnel on Class B?

This is going to sound harsh, but in my not at all humble opinion Class B is not a career, it is a job.  A Class A soldier (or real reservist as I like to call them) has a career - and occasionally two.  A Class B soldier on the other hand goes from short term contract to short term contract in order to earn money.  I call that a job.

Of course I might be wrong  :dunno:


----------



## dapaterson (28 Aug 2012)

Should the CF have class B as a career option?  No.

Have we (the royal, CF we) permitted and encouraged that over the past generation?  Yes.

We need to be careful in separating any distaste for the way the system evolved from people who were in that system.  In a very candid moment (over beers in Kingston) a former DGLCD stated point-blank that the Army would have collapsed without the Reservists who stepped up during the conflict in Afghanistan - not only those who deployed, but also those who backfilled and permitted others to deploy.


So, if the CF permitted the evolution of the "class B career" the CF now must find a way to square the circle, and find ways to assist in the transition back to class A service or, in some cases, to civilian life.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (29 Aug 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, if the CF permitted the evolution of the "class B career" the CF now must find a way to square the circle, and find ways to assist in the transition back to class A service or, in some cases, to civilian life.



I will grant you that, and as you know, I know all too well just how badly the Army abused both Cl B and civpers hiring in the last 6-8 years.   The reason that I think it important to ask the question (and I guess to make or even belabour the point) is that we need to ensure that we collectively challenge the structures that were built up to reflect our own lack of discipline.  I have no beefs with non Reserve related Cl B or even double-dippers as individuals.  I do however lament the fact that we encouraged people to make choices that are actually NOT in the best interests of the institution over the long term, and arguably over the short term.  It is the system that I am challenging, and the intellectual and policy underpinnings of same.

Fortunately, we have been slapped upside the head, and over the next few years we need to fix the problems.  We need to live within our means.  We need to avoid encouraging people to assume that the short term solutions have long term prospects.  We need to invest heavily (in politiical and moral if not physical or fiscal capital) in the Cl A Reserves.  In short, we have to live within our means, even if that entails cutting the legs out from under some good people.

Hard times means hard decisions.  We are returning to a time when the cost that must most be considered is the opportunity cost - the thing we can't do because we are chosing to do something else *cough*F35*cough*.  

It will not be easy, and nor will it be painless.  It is, however, essential.


----------



## dapaterson (29 Aug 2012)

Getting back on track is essential.  Doing it in a way that ensures our people know that we appreciate what they did when we needed them is also essential - pissing off large numbers of people is not a Human Resources best practice...


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## Blackadder1916 (29 Aug 2012)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> We offer* Second Career * Assistance to personnel on Class B?



Yes.

DAOD 5031-4, Second Career Assistance Network Programme


> Overview
> 
> Transition to Civilian Life
> 
> ...


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## bridges (29 Aug 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Should the CF have class B as a career option?  No.
> 
> Have we (the royal, CF we) permitted and encouraged that over the past generation?  Yes.
> 
> ...



To dapaterson, thank you for that post.

My CAREER was spent entirely on Class A, B and C service - yes it was a career, with more job security than most civilian careers, and plenty of hard work & sacrifice as with anyone in uniform.  I find the comments that reservists on Class B had "a job"/not a career, expressing shock at "20 years Class B", questioning whether they need SCAN seminars, etc. etc., distasteful to say the least - not to mention woefully uninformed.   And not helpful to the OP's question.

As to that - it appears, Future Pensioner, that you are caught in some very unfortunate timing in this case.  Are you sure that the original position has been cancelled eff 31 Aug - or was it just the Class B employment that was terminated?   Have you already requested your ROE?   Placed a call to the SISIP LTD folks?  Registered for a SCAN seminar?


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## EpicBeardedMan (24 Sep 2013)

Hey everyone,

Just thought I'd ask here for advice as I've always gotten the straight-up from the people here. This is my situation...

Started BMQ in November 2010 as a NESOP, graduated without injury, etc, won two awards, was fine. I then got sent to Esquimalt for my 3's, where I waited for a few months on PAT doing nothing really, went on some sails with the Algonquin, at this time I submitted an OT request due to me wanting to try to get into MP (I have my diploma for Police Foundations) and because I got terribly sea-sick (Like, 4-8 times a day at sea, with gravol bad). 

It took a bit for the OT process to be completed, medical, interviews, etc and MP was full so I picked Combat Engineer or Armored Crewman as my two choices. I got word over my christmas leave from my chief that my OT was successful and i was accepted for Combat Engineer. Was really a great day, and I was excited.

I got to CFB Gagetown being told that I was on the first course starting, which was great, I did my mod 1, completed SQ, then was supposed to finish the rest of my mods (2-9) right after SQ, except that higher ranking ex-reservists showed up the weekend of our SQ grad and took 5 of our spots on course, so I was taken off. I then did PAT stuff for awhile, trying to stay sane... In November, I was injured in the field during the phase 4 training for the officers (I was an MSVS driver attached to them) and severely damaged my ankle. I was in Physio from November up until June the next year, and they've given me injections as well...which had no effect and might have made it worse. 

I was placed on a second TCAT after my injections and am now in the process of going in for bloodwork before my part 1 of my PCAT in November. I was told by the Nurse Practitioner that because I'm an untrained Private that a) I'd get no benefits at all or compensation for my injury if they decided to medical release me, and b) they wouldn't OT me to a different trade because I can't ruck or run longer than 5K.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand if i wasn't able to run at all or just was in horrible shape that they wouldn't put me in another trade, but I bench 200lbs, deadlift 350lbs, go to the gym 5 days a week and I'm in good shape, i just can't ruck or run long distances.

My question is, is what the NP said true? I was hoping someone with experience in this matter or someone who's dealt with this kind of stuff before can shed some light, I've been trying to hold it together for over 2 years rotting away on PAT and it's starting to wear on me, it doesn't help that we get treated like pieces of garbage either.

Thanks


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## shootemup604 (24 Sep 2013)

Umm, if you got motion sickness, armoured crewman might not be the job for you...


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## OldSolduer (24 Sep 2013)

You need to engage your chain of command.


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## GR66 (24 Sep 2013)

I'd suggest dropping by your local IPSC.  They can help put you in touch with many resources that may be available to you as well as give information on the Release process should you end up going that route.


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## Greenman (12 Nov 2013)

Has anyone recently submitted their response back to DMCA asking for a retention? If so, what kind of turn around time did you have before getting an answer?

I know there are many many variables to each individual case, I am just curious what people are experiencing out there currently.


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## MJP (12 Nov 2013)

Greenman said:
			
		

> Has anyone recently submitted their response back to DMCA asking for a retention? If so, what kind of turn around time did you have before getting an answer?
> 
> I know there are many many variables to each individual case, I am just curious what people are experiencing out there currently.



I have helped staffed a few over the last 6-8 months.  All had varying return times but generally the more complex the file the longer it took.  Fastest was around the 2 month mark.  In every case I have seen in the past year if your trade is healthy and you don't have critical skills there is no retention being offered.


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## Greenman (19 Nov 2013)

Perfect, thanks. I am almost up to the 2 month mark now. Should be soon


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## OldSolduer (19 Nov 2013)

Greenman said:
			
		

> Perfect, thanks. I am almost up to the 2 month mark now. Should be soon



You should be discussing this with your CoC. Just a polite suggestion.


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## MJP (19 Nov 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> You should be discussing this with your CoC. Just a polite suggestion.



What would he discuss?  Sounds like they he has been given disclosure and made his representation.  It takes time for DMCA to get responses back as they have to talk to other agencies, get their responses and formulate a decision.  They are swamped with files.  If it was time sensitive his unit Adjt could ask for where the file is right now/hasten it.  But in my experience his timelines are not out of whack.


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## Greenman (19 Nov 2013)

Yup, nothing to discuss at the time. Just as an FYI, I am a WO with 24 years served. I think I know when to engage my COC, at least I hope so..... 

Thanks though.


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## Goose (3 Mar 2014)

So I've been off this site for literally, years, but I remember what a great reference and support network it was, so I figured I would give it a try. I have searched everywhere, and this seems like the most appropriate thread to link these questions of mine too- any help would be really appreciated! Here it goes;
 I was a regular force member from 09-11, and was hurt in '10 during phase training. I went to the MIR probably a dozen times for this same injury, but it was unfortunately misdiagnosed. In '11 I component transferred to the PRES from the regs with an operation pending (same injury). I have been told since that I should have been retained until the surgery was over/injury resolved; but that just didnt happen. Anyways, had the surgery, which was unfortunately unsuccessful. Insert second surgery (all the while serving as PRES class A; re-educating on my own dime, and never being put on catergory or assessed by a MO since my CT. Second surgery was only a few months ago, but was never put on restrictions so off on EX, re-injured (sigh). Here I am now, with what will likely be a life-long injury (prognosis worsens with every operation...), and I feel like although the military HAS paid for the operations themselves, I'm kind of at a loss of what I should/can do. I have re-educated, and want to CT back to the regs in my new profession, but this bloody injury is still hanging over me. Was I even supposed to be released in the first place? Been trying to just suck it up for years now, but here I am 5 years later with the same problem, and no resources (not to mention that I can still hardly run/work out, or even do a full shift on my feet in my new career!). Any recommendations????? 
Thanks for the time/consideration- again, I've got the BP and tactics down, but the rest of the army world is still largely mystery!


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## medicineman (3 Mar 2014)

You could start by engaging the medical system, since by the account I see there, you haven't.  I've rewritten this a few times now, and will just leave it at that - but, if you should be on a category, or are on one and there is no chit to say what your restrictions are, you're responsible for ensuring you and your CoC have one that is up to date.  If you're placed on a TCat, you're responsible to ensure you get in to have that category extended, ended or changed to permanent.  If you have surgery that will cause you to likely need restrictions and you're a Class A, you're responsible to get the medical system involved to ensure you're employed properly.  

MM


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## CountDC (7 Jul 2014)

Did you get anywhere with this?

As a reservist that apparantly was cleared but then injured on an ex you may want to advise your CC/Adjt that you would like to apply for RFC and complete a DND 2398 - Reserve Force - Compensation during a period of Injury, Disease or Illness.  it will at least get the ball rolling and draw some attention with the right people to help.


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## Nudibranch (9 Jul 2014)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Did you get anywhere with this?
> 
> As a reservist that apparantly was cleared but then injured on an ex you may want to advise your CC/Adjt that you would like to apply for RFC and complete a DND 2398 - Reserve Force - Compensation during a period of Injury, Disease or Illness.  it will at least get the ball rolling and draw some attention with the right people to help.



The mbr says she hasn't been seen by an MO since leaving the RegF, so no one would have "cleared" her to go on the ex, or put her on official MEL's for that matter. It sounds like everything was through the civi med system since she CT's in 2011. If mbr was concerned, should have asked to see MO, or not gone on ex (class A, not like they can make you go).

Jane, I agree with looking into the resources mentioned. You were re-injured on an exercise and hopefully this is documented, so apply for RFC. But as for transferring to RegF, it sounds like you haven't been medically fully fit since your initial injury in 2010, and unfortunately have a poor prognosis for returning to full duties. Had you never CT's out of the RegF, odds are you'd be on your way to a med release anyways, if not already released.


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## Porch-Light.org (3 Dec 2014)

I have a friend who suffers from PTSD. The medical system wants to "fast track his/her release" for some reason. Currently, he/she is on leave. Paternity/Maternity. He/she was asked to come in to see his/her Dr. so that he/she can go from a TCat to a PCat. This will start the process which, to his/her knowledge, will be expedited. In the CF leave manual, the CO needs to order the member back on duty for a min of 5 days or else the CF can't order this member to show himself/herself to a medical appointment. He/she advised them of this leave policy and told them that the appointment would have to wait. 

Now, the BSurg threatened the member to show up or they would process the PCat without the member. My question is; Can the Dr. draft up a PCat recommendation for the BSurg without the member being there? It still needs to go the DMCA for final approval but even then, would DMCA approve a PCat without a full examination of the patient?

(It would be easier just to show up I know. The system is playing a game and this point is only to buy time and not punish a person that is enjoying a newborn while on unpaid leave)

Thanks!

Nick


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## Porch-Light.org (3 Dec 2014)

So far with a little research, this is what I came up with;

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/assessing-cf-medical-fitness.page

MSMO Chap 3 (9)

As soon as the member's condition is stable or is not expected to significantly improve in the foreseeable future, a permanent category should be assigned, even before the end of the 12-month period of temporary category. A statement regarding prognosis shall be made in Section 3 of the CF 2033 and Section 2 of the CF 2088 at the earliest reasonable time. In the rare case where additional temporary status beyond 12 months may be warranted for extenuating circumstances, the case must be reviewed by D Med Pol Standards.

MSMO Chap 2 (3)

he Medical Examination - A complete medical examination is necessary when assessing medical fitness for the CF. This is also important when restrictions may limit the career choices being considered. 

-----------------------------------------------

As I am interpreting the policy, a complete medical examination of the patient is required before a recommendation for any Medical category change. 

Seems like the BSurg would have to ask the CO to order the patient back to duty for a min of 5 days. (which would be an admin nightmare/stopping EI and all) Then, the BSurg could book a medical appointment and have the member complete a medical examination. Lots of work to get a person to come to an medical appointment but it is in black and white. 

What do you think? Is the interpretation right?


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## ch277 (24 Sep 2015)

I've got some questions with regards to TCATs. A few months ago, I had an accident while on leave which resulted in surgery and I was then placed on a TCAT. Since the injury occurred while on leave, I was wondering if I would be entitled to the same benefits as if the injured occurred while on duty. Also, as I work towards getting fit again, I was wondering what I had to do in order to be back in the "green". I was told I had to pass my medical, and be able to pass the PT test. But what if I'm unsuccessful? Will the TCAT be extended? How long do I have before I start facing career implications? And in the worst possible scenario, if I'm unable to get back to a deployable status once the TCAT period expires, what could happen? Again because the injuries happened while on leave I'm a little nervous. Thanks in advance!


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## BinRat55 (24 Sep 2015)

ch277 said:
			
		

> I've got some questions with regards to TCATs. A few months ago, I had an accident while on leave which resulted in surgery and I was then placed on a TCAT. Since the injury occurred while on leave, I was wondering if I would be entitled to the same benefits as if the injured occurred while on duty.



Exactly what benefits are you "receiving"? Are you reg force or reserve?



			
				ch277 said:
			
		

> Also, as I work towards getting fit again, I was wondering what I had to do in order to be back in the "green". I was told I had to pass my medical, and be able to pass the PT test.



Not sure what the basis of this question is... you must be familiar with the universality of service? What did you do before you had your accident / surgery? We don't really "pass" a medical, we must meet the UofS. If we don't, our file goes to D Med Pol for an AR, and the rest is a matter of procedure towards a possible 3B release... If you can pass your FORCE test, the UofS has more than likely been met (or not even an issue)



			
				ch277 said:
			
		

> But what if I'm unsuccessful? Will the TCAT be extended? How long do I have before I start facing career implications? And in the worst possible scenario, if I'm unable to get back to a deployable status once the TCAT period expires, what could happen? Again because the injuries happened while on leave I'm a little nervous. Thanks in advance!



See my response above - D Med Pol, DMCA, 3B release... anywhere from 6 - 8 months to 2 - 3 years. Give or take a day or two...

You have a MCpl avitar and your TI on your profile states you have 11 years in... i'm confused as to how you don't understand how any of this works...


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## ch277 (24 Sep 2015)

First off, sorry if I wasn't clear, but thanks for the fast response BinRat. I am a regular force member. I guess benefits is not the correct word to use in this instance. I was wondering if down the road if there was complications that were a result of this surgery (which is a result of a off-duty accident) it would be treated the same as if I had been injured at work (ie. VA).

I am familiar with the Universality of Service. My questions had more to do with what had to be done in order to meet it, coming of the TCAT. From what I was told by the Doc who is following me, the lifting of the TCAT will only be complete once I pass medical parts 1 & 2, and successfully pass the PT test.. at which point I would get the geographical and occupational factor (in my case currently G3 O3) back to where they should be. Again where I'm getting stuck is that the injury happened while not on duty. I wanted to know if that changed anything.

As far as not understanding this, well if I did I wouldn't be asking, but I do appreciate the pointers!


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## BinRat55 (24 Sep 2015)

ch277 said:
			
		

> First off, sorry if I wasn't clear, but thanks for the fast response BinRat. I am a regular force member. I guess benefits is not the correct word to use in this instance. I was wondering if down the road if there was complications that were a result of this surgery (which is a result of a off-duty accident) it would be treated the same as if I had been injured at work (ie. VA).



Ahhh... that makes more sense. The answer to this is tricky. Initially, one would want to say no - it happened off duty (the accident) so it wouldn't be covered. However, we are learning that in many cases, we are considered always on duty. It would come down to your "culpability" in said injury. So, while I can't answer this one with 100% certainty, you may need an adjudicator if it came to it. Document everything. Keep all your records. I am personally acquainted with a member who was involved in a motorcycle accident (member on civi roads, civi bike, civi clothing, after supper...). Several surgeries later, member does NOT meet the UofS. Released, but a 3B was in order. Member can't claim a pension, but received many benefits on release.



			
				ch277 said:
			
		

> I am familiar with the Universality of Service. My questions had more to do with what had to be done in order to meet it, coming of the TCAT. From what I was told by the Doc who is following me, the lifting of the TCAT will only be complete once I pass medical parts 1 & 2, and successfully pass the PT test.. at which point I would get the geographical and occupational factor (in my case currently G3 O3) back to where they should be. Again where I'm getting stuck is that the injury happened while not on duty. I wanted to know if that changed anything.
> 
> As far as not understanding this, well if I did I wouldn't be asking, but I do appreciate the pointers!



Ok, so here it is as best as I can put it (there are many more here that could probably be clearer...) and I suggest you either retain this or write it down. As a MCpl, you must supervise troops. They will come to you for answers and you need to be able to give them at least a jumping off point. Using the correct terminology and pointing them to the right places...

A TCat is generally assigned to a member who cannot return to fit full duties (must remain on a medical chit) for longer than 30 days. This can be converted a few ways - Cpl Bloggins get's a 14 day chit, 14 day chit, 30 day chit then hits the TCat wall - depends on the MO. Many different factors involved here, so I won't get into the semantics. You are correct - the only way to come off a TCat is to return to fit full duties, but it's not that simple. You are right - paper needs to be generated by the MO. The part one is your work-up, part two is a sit down, more detailed. This is where you answer several questions for the MO - can you carry X lbs over X distance, can you run, can you wear a gas mask... if everything is within the UofS, MO signs off on your chit and you are back in business. You will have to pass the FORCE test, but that's standard - everyone does. Unless you are med excused. Which brings me to the second part of this - you do not meet UofS. The MO will place you on a PCat (or more than likely a 2nd TCat) awaiting results of your 2088 to come back from D Med Pol. You have just been put on an AR (Admin Review) Depending on why D Med Pol says on your MELs (Medical Employment Limitations) you could be retained without limitations and give a new set of MELs within your trade specs, or not.

So a long drawn out answer (i'm good for those... sorry!) but in short, you say you are now at a G3 O3. Do you know what your trade specs are? Do you know how to find them? As a MCpl, with over 10 yrs, the possibility of remustering to another trade is well within the realm of possibilities too.


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## ch277 (24 Sep 2015)

BinRat, I trully appreciate your long answer!! As soon as I'm more mobile I'll investigate further. Got to say that this whole scenario is stressing me out, definitely don't want the 3B. I haven't found a whole lot about off-duty injuries online. Hopefully this becomes nothing more than a lesson learned and I'll have a better understanding if this was to happen to a subordinate. It is surprising how many different stories I've gotten from peers and Sr NCOs with regards to what "could" happen because they knew a guy way back when... but I guess a good talk with the MO wouldn't hurt.

Yeah I'm keeping all these chits and paperwork locked in a safe hahaha!!


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## Teager (24 Sep 2015)

If you are having a tough time with figuring out what your entitled to or the process of different scenerios ( although BinRat gave a good overall look at it) talk to your IPSC. They can defiantly give you the most up to date info and timelines for any process. Also can inform you about any benefits if it goes toward a 3B and what you may/may not be entitled to now.

Hope you recover quickly.


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## Lily2016 (14 Oct 2016)

I have a question wrt TCat vs PCat - in 2011 i was diagnosed with illnesses related to PTSD - and ended up on a PCAT with a low risk.  It is now 2016 and I've been have been showing the same symptoms as previous.  I am to start seeing a shrink again and changing my meds and the RPN said I was going back on TCAT.  As I am already on PCAT for the same issues - is it possible to just initiate the process for a 3b medical release instead of doing the 1 yr of TCat's and then having it reviewed by D Med Pol ?


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## DAA (14 Oct 2016)

Lily2016 said:
			
		

> I have a question wrt TCat vs PCat - in 2011 i was diagnosed with illnesses related to PTSD - and ended up on a PCAT with a low risk.  It is now 2016 and I've been have been showing the same symptoms as previous.  I am to start seeing a shrink again and changing my meds and the RPN said I was going back on TCAT.  As I am already on PCAT for the same issues - is it possible to just initiate the process for a 3b medical release instead of doing the 1 yr of TCat's and then having it reviewed by D Med Pol ?



You probably weren't assigned a PCAT but more likely just a "regular" Medical Category with low risk MEL's which didn't breach UoS and within your MOSID Medical Standards for employment.  If the attending Health Care Professional sees the need to assign a new TCAT with greater MEL's that restrict employment, then that is what they will do.  So you will most likely have to start over again from scratch (TCAT, TCAT and possible TCAT) followed by a final Medical Category.

Nevertheless, you can always discuss such a possibility with your Health Care Professional and see what they have to say about it.  Just keep in mind, it's all "pensionable" time.    

Good luck!


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## Hockey22 (14 Oct 2016)

Hello folks, today after two years of suffering from severe post concussion syndrome I was given a PCat recommendation. 

My question is:

What are the odds I don't get put on P Cat? 

I gave up trying to stay in about 8 months ago and just want this process to go on smoothly. I know any answer is just speculation but I have some anxiety towards whether I'll be getting the PCat and released sooner rather than waiting around for even longer doing nothing.

Thanks again.


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## DAA (14 Oct 2016)

Hockey22 said:
			
		

> Hello folks, today after two years of suffering from severe post concussion syndrome I was given a PCat recommendation.
> My question is:
> What are the odds I don't get put on P Cat?
> I gave up trying to stay in about 8 months ago and just want this process to go on smoothly. I know any answer is just speculation but I have some anxiety towards whether I'll be getting the PCat and released sooner rather than waiting around for even longer doing nothing.
> Thanks again.



If you are recommended for a Med Cat that doesn't meet the minimum MOSID requirements ( http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/officer-ncm-minimum-medical-standards.page ) and comes with MEL's that breach UoS ( http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/selected-medical-conditions.page ) then you might be subject to the AR/MEL process (Administrative Review - Medical Employment Limitations).

Once you have been recommended for and subsequently assigned a Med Cat which possibly breaches UoS, it becomes a waiting game.  Stay in contact with your CAF Health Care Professional and go from there.


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## Lily2016 (14 Oct 2016)

It is a PCAT stating I can't be deployed on operation without being screened by a MO. My MO is looking into it - i just thought someone here might know the correct answer.

Cheers.


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## PuckChaser (14 Oct 2016)

The correct answer is hidden in the intricacies of your individual case file. DAA would likely be able to give you a better answer if he had more info, but that wouldn't be advisable on an open forum. Your best bet is to PM him, or wait until your MO has the decision (ask for references so you can review them yourself).


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## Hockey22 (15 Oct 2016)

Thanks for all the answers.

If you ask me my MELs received today definitely without a doubt breach UoS. You'd think after 8 years of hurry up and wait I'd have more patience. 

Just been super curious because I haven't been exposed to this situation before in my career.


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## Lily2016 (15 Oct 2016)

Thanks for all your help !


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## Hockey22 (17 Oct 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> If you are recommended for a Med Cat that doesn't meet the minimum MOSID requirements ( http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/officer-ncm-minimum-medical-standards.page ) and comes with MEL's that breach UoS ( http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-medical-occupations/selected-medical-conditions.page ) then you might be subject to the AR/MEL process (Administrative Review - Medical Employment Limitations).
> 
> Once you have been recommended for and subsequently assigned a Med Cat which possibly breaches UoS, it becomes a waiting game.  Stay in contact with your CAF Health Care Professional and go from there.



DAA I sent you a PM in hopes you may be able to clear it all up for me.

Thanks.


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## intski (7 Dec 2016)

my situation:

my expected medical release date is the end of March 2017. the decision came from an Administrative Review (AR) of my MELs, being on PCAT. the decision letter at the time stated if my med situation continues to improve and work full time, I can submit a request for period of retention. if my med situation improves to the degree that I can fully meet the U of S, a new AR will be held and I may remain in the CF.

currently there are no MO's available until after New Year's, so I want to know if I should proceed with request for period of retention first, since if I request to remain in the CF, I'd need to see an MO first so they can write up a good report for MELs review. I know that I don't need to see an MO before requesting a period of retention because it was the MO who has given me permission to work full time (after I received my decision letter). 

if the request for period of retention goes through, my question is:
can I still request to continue my career in the CF full time WHILE I am working in the CF during my period of retention? it has been mentioned in the forums that "Upon completion of a period of retention subject to employment limitations, a CF member is only eligible to be considered for a component or sub-component transfer to the Supp Res, Canadian Rangers or CIC."


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## captloadie (9 Dec 2016)

In order to be offered a period of retention, your Chain of Command needs to make a positive recommendation and be willing to employ you within their lines. I have worked with a broad swath of MOCs, and most of the time, when a CoC recommends a period of retention, D MIL C will grant that period.

I have yet to see someone get a new AR and have their PCAT changed to become a low risk of breaching the UoS. Even individuals who have come back and have no MELs other than requiring follow up with a specialist no more often than 1 year, have not been granted a second MEL/AR because they are 04 or G4 and greater. This all has do to with the medical risk matrix and the potential for a member to have an acute episode while deployed, and the medical intervention required to bring the episode under control. 

For example, I had an individual who had suffered a heart attack. He recovered, made positive lifestyle changes, returned to full duties and could complete the PT test. But, because of the type of heart attack, there was an increased risk (greater than 50%) that he could have a reoccurrence that would likely be fatal in a deployed setting. He became an G4 05, and was given a medical release. We retained him for the maximum three years, but couldn't convince DMEDPOL to change his category.

Another example was a member with a history of kidney stones. They could not pinpoint the cause, so they kept reoccurring randomly. Other than when experiencing an episode, the member had no MELs that limited her from performing her duties. But, once again, because of the risk matrix, she was assigned a G4 04 which breached UofS, and was medically released.

All that to say, you need to be prepared that even though you are getting better, and could return to full duties (depending on MOC and how they aggravate your medical condition), a period of retention may be the best you get.


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## CrazyTrain905 (18 Apr 2017)

I was contacted and told that I must go get my P-Cat MEL's reassessed. And was told that it needed to be done tomorrow and that it came from the B-Surg. When I asked why I wasn't given an answer I was told to just do it. Is this normal?


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Apr 2017)

CrazyTrain905 said:
			
		

> . . .  and that it came from the B-Surg. . . .



So someone in your chain of command passed on a message from a medical authority.  Maybe any explanation of the reason for the reassessment would have required discussing your medical condition (which a medical authority would not be permitted to discuss with your chain of command), or maybe you received the total message that was provided and there was no explanation available to answer your question.  Yeah, it may seem out of normal (or is your concern with possible brusqueness/inconsideration from whomever passed the message), but the answer will probably be given to you when you contact the medics.


----------



## CrazyTrain905 (19 Apr 2017)

My concern is that I called the base hospital and they have no idea what he is talking about and stated the B-Surg isn't even on the base as they are away.


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## CountDC (19 Apr 2017)

now that depends on how much of a pain you want to be.  You could go back to the unit and ask who they got the message from and when.  

It does happen sometimes that MELs are reviewed but usually the medical staff contacts the members.  On the occasion that I have had them contact me they don't leave such a message, they ask for contact information or for me to contact the member and have them call the medics without any details given.


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## RCAF Old Timer (23 Apr 2017)

The only reasons I know of for them to ask you to do that is if you are up for TOS renewal or if you are being promoted.  Your P-CAT notification you received from D MED POL will state if your P-CAT has career implications, some do, some don't.


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## PuckChaser (23 Apr 2017)

CrazyTrain905 said:
			
		

> My concern is that I called the base hospital and they have no idea what he is talking about and stated the B-Surg isn't even on the base as they are away.



That sounds like the exact information to send to your CoC, to find out exactly what they wanted (or a contact name). "I tried to make an appointment, but the CDU doesn't know why I'm calling and BSurg is out of office. Do you have more details so I can follow your direction?"


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## medicineman (23 Apr 2017)

When I hear things like this, makes me wonder if the CoC is wanting the MEL's "revisited" or "clarified" - I use quotes because I've found over the years some people are illiterate in both official languages when it comes to some of these.

MM


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## PMedMoe (23 Apr 2017)

medicineman said:
			
		

> When I hear things like this, makes me wonder if the CoC is wanting the MEL's "revisited" or "clarified" - I use quotes because I've found over the years some people are illiterate in both official languages when it comes to some of these.
> 
> MM



 :nod:


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## CountDC (24 Apr 2017)

and if it's clarified they should contact the medical section themselves instead of wasting the members time. No harm in picking up a phone and saying I don't understand this and want to make sure we are taking care of the member....


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## TCM621 (27 Apr 2017)

CountDC said:
			
		

> and if it's clarified they should contact the medical section themselves instead of wasting the members time. No harm in picking up a phone and saying I don't understand this and want to make sure we are taking care of the member....



I am pretty switched on, and do my homework, when it comes to this stuff and I barely understand it. Asking the member for that information can be a waste of everyone's time.


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## vulcan (28 Aug 2017)

I've searched and asked questions and can't seem to get any answers so now I'm reaching out on here (Please help me! [) . I'm on a T-Cat (which I don't feel I should be on) and I want to get off to switch back to my old trade. I'll explain more.

I'm a reservist and I transferred from Wpns Tech to Inf (don’t ask, it seemed right at the time ). Part way through my transfer I took a Permanent Class B contract on a base so instead of transferring me to an inf unit only for me to temp transfer to the base they decided to transfer me to the base. So my OT went through no problem and I don’t belong to an actual unit, just the base.

Last summer I went off to do DP1 Inf, I had a lot going on at home at the time and the stress from the course on top of everything else, asked if I could voluntarily withdraw from the course because of everything going on, was told I couldn’t and I ended up with migraines the first few days of the course and was placed on a T-Cat because of it.

Got back to the base and because I’ve only ever been a reservist and have never really heard about T-Cats didn’t know what I was supposed to do from there, so 6 months later after my first T-Cat expired I went to the MIR to ask to be taken off, which they didn’t want to do because I was still having migraines. I made the mistake of telling a doc that I’ve had them since I was 9 years old, but I’ve been in the reserves for the past 8 years and have only ever gotten the occasionally one as I am now. Decided it would be best to go back to my old trade as it was a bad decision.

I ended up trying a bunch of different drugs, which didn’t work and now Botox (also doesn’t work) which is being injected every 3 months, but NOW because I’m seeing a doc every 3 months for the injections, that’s a problem. I didn’t suggest this, it was a suggestion from the MIR.

My issue is I’m not under any limitations, I’m able to do everything that the normal, non-migraine sufferer is able to do, I’ve been in for 8 years and have gone on course every summer and participated in almost every Thurs night/weekend no issues. 

My contract is almost up and as long as I’m on a T-Cat I won’t be able to apply and compete again. I do have an option civi side of being a Sheriff but where does that leave me with the reserves if I go back to being a Class A reservist? I don’t belong to a unit, I’m unqualified in my current trade, nor can I get qualified as I can’t go on a course so long as I’m on my T-Cat…Nor can I transfer back to my old trade where I was QL5 and PLQ qualified.

Like I said, I can do everything everyone else can do, courses, PT Tests, you name it. When I explained this to the doc all he said was well…you’re always going to have migraines so Ottawa will probably put you on a P-Cat. How does he know that I’ll always have them? Maybe one day I’ll wake up and never get them again, so *if I’m put on a P-Cat is there any possibility of ever getting off of it???*

Also, why are T-Cats not applied universally across the board? Obviously is one troop has diabetes he’ll be placed on a CAT, and so will any others with the same medical condition…so if I’m being put on a T-CAT for this, why isn’t every other person that experiences migraines?

Is there anyone I can go to for assistance on this?

Please help me  [:'(


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## Starlight1 (30 Sep 2017)

Has anyone seen a 4th TCat granted?  It used to be that 3rd TCat had to go to DMed Pol, but now third can be granted by BSurg.  4th TCat recommendation goes to DMed Pol now.  Awaiting outcome of my file for 6 months now.  Thinking that by this point they'll decide PCat is the decision, despite some physical things are still evolving, I still can't do a Force test.


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## Steve_D (7 Oct 2017)

Yes, a 4th TCAT can exist. It is just a very rare thing. Completely situation dependant.


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## Starlight1 (7 Oct 2017)

Thanks for the reply.

I haven't seen one myself.  The thought was that some additional time was needed for some test results and specialist reviews that might improve the 2 physical issues.  Unfortunately, that has not proven to be the case, it's nearly 11 months since that reboard was done (requesting approval for 4th T6).  File didn't leave the clinic for 4 months and still waiting for Ottawa's decision.  And to further compound things, since that medical, previous OSI issues have resurfaced, for which I'm starting treatment.  Not particularly expecting happy news.


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## meni0n (11 Oct 2017)

I just got a 4th TCat today. MO said that it won't turn into a PCat unless they're absolutely sure the condition will not improve.


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## Starlight1 (12 Oct 2017)

Nice, meni0n, congrats.  I learned today (being in the branch, I have connections) that D Med Pol is pushing for a PCAT given the length of this things have been going on.  I know I will lose my air factor.  Will wait out, but am expecting a PCAT that either breaches or at minimum high risk of so.  Perhaps not the worst thing, as I am in a pensionable position, but it does remove the sense of personal control over the end of a long career.


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## meni0n (13 Oct 2017)

Did your MO send your TCat to DMed or was the review done automatically?

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk


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## CountDC (13 Oct 2017)

looked up the policy a few years ago as there was some dispute at the unit on when you moved from tcat to pcat as they couldn't understand why a member wasn't moved. Turned out there was no maximum number of tcats.  You were moved when they determined there was no longer a chance of reasonable improvement.  I believe though that most MO's were still using 3 as a guideline to determine this.


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## Starlight1 (13 Oct 2017)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Did your MO send your TCat to DMed or was the review done automatically?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk



TCAT request went to D Med Pol many months ago.  In their review, they noted it hadn't gone through the air factor review.  This has now been done, so back to D Med Pol for their recommendations, and I have it from a reliable source that they are leaning toward PCAT.  There was hope of improvement at the time of the last medical, but we seem to be past that currently.  Total time on TCAT to this point has been nearly 3 years - at first one was waiting for surgery.  Lag in times to get booked in for reboard medicals and processing time has ended up here, with an additional surgery and a new issue cropping up in the interim needing treatment.

CountDC- you are also correct.  Usually, if mbr is still undergoing treatment/recovery with reasonable expectation of return to fitness, they can go longer, but currently the 4th TCAT does need D Med Pol review.

We shall see how long it takes now to hear the outcome.


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## meni0n (14 Oct 2017)

To tell you the truth I am so tired with dealing with all of this stuff, I'd rather just get a PCAT and get med released.


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## Starlight1 (14 Oct 2017)

I hear you.  Starting to feel the same.  Just getting tired of it all.  Not making any decisions until I see what they have to say.  In the meantime, I suppose I should go see VAC at some point, as one of the injuries happened in Afghanistan, and the OSI stuff was from there too.  Husband retired this year into a public service job, we're sort of biding time to get youngest kid sorted out and then move to our retirement location.  There are decidedly some days when doing that sooner than later is most appealing.  Trying to get relief from the health issues is also tiring.


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## Starlight1 (27 Oct 2017)

Happened to check my MPRR today after a prompt from my OR about yellow APRV items.  It seems DMedPol has completed their review, as my med cat, which last was G4(T6) O4(T6) A7(T6) from date of 3rd TCAT now reads G4 O4 A7 dated my last reboard medical date (the one sent in requesting 4th TCAT).  I see my MO next week, so will ask to see the official notes.  I believe notification of this along with sending to DMCA comes via CoC, who has been away this week.  I have no delusions that G4 O4 isn't high risk if not outright breaching UoS.  Have put in a request to meet with a case manager, seems they're all away at some training session.  Hoping to find out more clearly where things are at before going on leave in a week.


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## Starlight1 (31 Oct 2017)

Well, is confirmed, D Med Pol decision is PCAT G4O4 with high risk MELs.  Now off to DMCA.  Am expecting 1-4 months to hear back, based on what I have read/heard.  Continuing treatment for both MH and physical issues in the meantime. My MO is sending a prompt to case manager to set up an appointment.  A somewhat disturbing place to find oneself in.


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## meni0n (3 Nov 2017)

Sorry to hear that. Is it DMCA that will decide that the PCAT warrants a medical release? If that happens, you could always ask for the three year accommodation.


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## Starlight1 (21 Nov 2017)

Just back from leave and am told my disclosure package is in.  Won't see it until end of the week as my boss is away.  Will wait until I read it all, digest and discuss with husband before I decide what to do with that.  Apparently DMCA works fairly quickly, as it came in just over 4 weeks from when PCAT was determined by DMedPol.


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## DWS (11 Dec 2017)

Hello,

I tried searching to no avail.

I have a TCAT review soon for my knee. What does a TCAT review consist of?

Thank you.


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## medicineman (11 Dec 2017)

DWS said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I tried searching to no avail.
> 
> ...


An appointment to go over how you're doing, if you're making progress, and to see if you can come off your category or will it need to be extended.

MM


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## Starlight1 (11 Dec 2017)

Update. DMCA disclosure states I am breaching UOS.  Have submitted my representation with retention request today.  Happened to have Career Mgr interview last week, says he’s going to approve request for retention, given my position.  Have had meetings with Case Mgr, IPSC and VAC in the meantime.


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## Justasoldier86 (20 Feb 2018)

Does a PCAT disqualify someone from PLQ where the member is no longer in trade specs for multiple categories (V G H etc)?


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## sarahsmom (21 Feb 2018)

It could. It depends.
I can't see the V CV H or A factors affecting anything. But the G and O factors definitely could. Especially if one of your PCAT limitations says no weapons handling or unfair operational environment/unfit field. Or PT restrictions.
A TCAT/PCAT is not supposed to hinder you from getting promoted as long as you can still do the job, but going to the field and handling weapons are part of PLQ.


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## trooper142 (13 Mar 2018)

Looked through the forum, couldn't find anything specific to my question.

Would a member on TCat due to a physical injury be precluded from attending QL5 due to said TCat, if that member can attend all classes and complete all coursework?

I ask because the joining instructions list a physical test day 1, but from my understanding, this isn't done anymore, maybe the joining instructions haven't been updated yet.

Thanks everyone


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## sidemount (13 Mar 2018)

It depends on the course.
Some courses require the member to be physically fit to be put on the course. If the course is mainly academic and not physical then you might be ok.

It may be in the qualification standard for that course. Id just contact the school that runs the ql5 and ask.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## garb811 (13 Mar 2018)

trooper142 said:
			
		

> Looked through the forum, couldn't find anything specific to my question.
> 
> Would a member on TCat due to a physical injury be precluded from attending QL5 due to said TCat, if that member can attend all classes and complete all coursework?
> 
> ...


Seeing as you're MP...

Your chain of command needs to send your TCAT and any MEL amendments that you may have received since the TCAT was issued, to CFMPA.  The final decision is made by the Academy on a case by case basis.

PT is still a requirement on the QL5, and 6A, and 6B...


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## trooper142 (13 Mar 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Seeing as you're MP...
> 
> Your chain of command needs to send your TCAT and any MEL amendments that you may have received since the TCAT was issued, to CFMPA.  The final decision is made by the Academy on a case by case basis.
> 
> PT is still a requirement on the QL5, and 6A, and 6B...



This is what I was looking for! Thanks garb811! 

Fingers crossed


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