# Dress During Final Release Appt



## MJP (16 Mar 2021)

Leaning on the collective braintrust of Army.ca for thoughts on dress for members on final release appt. Been doing some searching around the CAF and it seems that every base/release section has a different way of approaching the issue. It seems some have a fairly strict "thou shall wear DEU 3" (really the only uniform one has left when releasing), while others allow members to wear respectful civilians and some even give the mbr a choice between the two options.

In discussion with folks, there are some that approach it as releasing mbrs need to wear a uniform as it is still part and parcel of being a soldier along with good order and discipline. Others have a more pragmatic approach of what possible benefit accrues to the institution by making a person wear a uniform on their last day. I am in the latter camp and and someone whose advice I take with with the greatest respect imparted a few wise words on the subject, is it _"Depart with dignity, or depart with indignation? An enlightened institution that respects its people would offer them the choice..."_

So what is are the collective's thoughts on the matter? 


Just so I am clear this isn't about me (well I am releasing but I care not what I wear), rather it was a discussion that started at work that I am curious about people's thoughts on it.


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## Furniture (16 Mar 2021)

You're in until you're not. Wear the uniform proudly one last time, all it costs you is a few minutes of pressing, and lining up ribbons/pins.


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## blacktriangle (16 Mar 2021)

I proudly walked the empty halls of Carling Campus with longer hair and stubble. I didn't wear a uniform, but I dressed respectfully...nice shoes, nice pants, collared high end polo, dress watch and my Oliver People's eyeglasses.

I've followed your posts since 2006 or so....please wear whatever you want. You've earned it, MJP. Gods speed in your future endeavours.


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## ModlrMike (16 Mar 2021)

I'm in the uniform camp. That's what I did, so I admit my bias.


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## medicineman (16 Mar 2021)

ModlrMike said:


> I'm in the uniform camp. That's what I did, so I admit my bias.


Same...but that were the regs were I was too.  I was still habit as well mind you.


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## Kat Stevens (16 Mar 2021)

I wasn't given the option. When I got my terminal handshake from the civy in the basement of base HQ in Edmonton, it was in DEU. Didn't bother me to wear it one last time.


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## Zoomie (16 Mar 2021)

Does the release clerk really care what you wear?  It’s not like you see the Base Commander on the way out the door.  I signed the PLCC card of my releasing Captain two weeks ago, he releases in April.  I gave him the Covid-19 safe head nod and appreciative comments and sent him on his way.


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## dangerboy (16 Mar 2021)

I lent a set of combats to a guy releasing so he could clear out in something besides #3 order of dress. However, each base as you said does something different.


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## OldSolduer (16 Mar 2021)

I think it’s up to the individual. As long as they dress correctly it shouldn’t be an issue.!


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## PMedMoe (16 Mar 2021)

I wore "business attire".  My final appointment lasted less than five minutes.  Handed over my RRSP paperwork and got a leave pass.  I agree with Zoomie, the only person I saw was the Release Clerk.


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## Good2Golf (16 Mar 2021)

PMedMoe said:


> I wore "business attire".  My final appointment lasted less than five minutes.  Handed over my RRSP paperwork and got a leave pass.  I agree with Zoomie, the only person I saw was the Release Clerk.


Same.  Yes, it was a Friday in NDHQ and civvies Friday was the norm, but in the summer golf shirts seem(ed) the norm...I chose jacket and tie as that was what I always wore on a Friday. I probably would have worn 3B if it hadn’t been a Friday, but if someone wanted to walk out in tidy civvies I don’t see the problem at all.


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## TangoTwoBravo (16 Mar 2021)

MJP said:


> Leaning on the collective braintrust of Army.ca for thoughts on dress for members on final release appt. Been doing some searching around the CAF and it seems that every base/release section has a different way of approaching the issue. It seems some have a fairly strict "thou shall wear DEU 3" (really the only uniform one has left when releasing), while others allow members to wear respectful civilians and some even give the mbr a choice between the two options.
> 
> In discussion with folks, there are some that approach it as releasing mbrs need to wear a uniform as it is still part and parcel of being a soldier along with good order and discipline. Others have a more pragmatic approach of what possible benefit accrues to the institution by making a person wear a uniform on their last day. I am in the latter camp and and someone whose advice I take with with the greatest respect imparted a few wise words on the subject, is it _"Depart with dignity, or depart with indignation? An enlightened institution that respects its people would offer them the choice..."_
> 
> ...


My release section allows neat civilian attire for the final release appointment. And a Non-Medical Mask of course.


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## Towards_the_gap (16 Mar 2021)

god knows what I wore. All I remember is the CO's face when I replied to his "Please stop by if you're in the neighbourhood" with "Oh I'm sure I'll run out of batteries eventually haha"


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## ballz (18 Mar 2021)

MJP said:


> In discussion with folks, there are some that approach it as releasing mbrs need to wear a uniform as it is still part and parcel of being a soldier along with good order and discipline.



I've never thought of this before, but sounds like one last reason/method to screw someone around or ostracize them. We let people wear appropriate civies all the time, including every Friday at some workplaces.

I'm not sure when, but you turn in your all your kit a few days, a week, two weeks? before you actually release. So this train of thought, applied consistently, would mean we make them wear DEUs for their last week or two at work.... at best it's needlessly jerking someone around, at worst it's ostracizing them.


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## Lumber (18 Mar 2021)

Why does it seem like people feel like wearing DEUs is some sort of punishment or serious inconvenience?


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## SupersonicMax (18 Mar 2021)

Because it is/was a form of punishment for screwing up not not hard enough to be charged?


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## Furniture (18 Mar 2021)

Lumber said:


> Why does it seem like people feel like wearing DEUs is some sort of punishment or serious inconvenience?


The RCN seems to have a better balanced view of #3s than the other elements. It's just another order of dress, it isn't punishment for those not quite guilty enough to deserve a charge. I suspect that if the CA and RCAF got their people to wear an office appropriate uniform on a regular basis they would have a different view on things, though a better cut/made service dress would help with that as well. 

My personal take is that if wearing a uniform is too much hassle/effort on release, perhaps you should have released a few years earlier... before wearing the uniform was too much of a chore.


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## Lumber (18 Mar 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Because it is/was a form of punishment for screwing up not not hard enough to be charged?


Really? It's dress of the day in naval shore units.


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## PuckChaser (18 Mar 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Because it is/was a form of punishment for screwing up not not hard enough to be charged?


Are you talking about a change parade? If so, that would imply that PT gear and operational dress would be equal as a "form of punishment".


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## SupersonicMax (18 Mar 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Are you talking about a change parade? If so, that would imply that PT gear and operational dress would be equal as a "form of punishment".


No, I am talking having someone wear DEUs to tend their daily, non-operational tasks.


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## PuckChaser (18 Mar 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> No, I am talking having someone wear DEUs to tend their daily, non-operational tasks.


I honestly didn't know throwing on 3B was a chore. Took me 10 minutes a day when I was orderly for a Courts Martial to get myself sorted out for the next day, I spend about the same amount of time picking out civvies. Yeah, it means you can't just throw on your CADPAT pyjamas or your flight suit but is that the hill to die on? Businesses have dress codes, why should the CAF be any different?


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## SupersonicMax (18 Mar 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> I honestly didn't know throwing on 3B was a chore. Took me 10 minutes a day when I was orderly for a Courts Martial to get myself sorted out for the next day, I spend about the same amount of time picking out civvies. Yeah, it means you can't just throw on your CADPAT pyjamas or your flight suit but is that the hill to die on? Businesses have dress codes, why should the CAF be any different?


When your dress of the day is operational dress, wearing a DEU can be a punishment not because of how long it takes to get ready but rather, for being singled out for having messed up.


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## ballz (18 Mar 2021)

I'll be wearing a suit every day in my new career, so spare me about how I'm just too much of a slob to dress well (which is the insinuation being made my the "pro-DEU" camp). And for that matter, I actually like men's fashion / wearing business attire including suits, blazers, collared shirts, ties, etc.

Our DEUs are cheap, hot, uncomfortable, and bunch of other unpleasant things. I may like fashion but 1. I'm a diva and 2. I'm not stupid, any fool can suffer. Hence why wearing them can be a "chore" and at best, making someone wear them just to go see a clerk for 5 five minutes of paperwork is just jerking them around.

Edit because I'm sure I typed this and must have accidentally deleted it.
And as pointed out by Max, they are still used as a punishment to both single you out and just make your day (or week) uncomfortable, hence why at worse it could be ostracizing.



Furniture said:


> My personal take is that if wearing a uniform is too much hassle/effort on release, perhaps you should have released a few years earlier... before wearing the uniform was too much of a chore.



Wish I had you around for advice 4 years ago.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (18 Mar 2021)

Interesting conversation....I know when I released over 30 years ago I must have had 'work dress' to wear around as I worked pretty much to my last day.  In fact the BSM phoned the Sig shop and called me over to inform me he had a tasking for me the next week, [WO Gimpel and my troop were on an 'adventure training' bicycle trip] and I had to tell him I'd be a civy  and almost back in Ontario by next week.   
Anyways, I had only been issued the new DEU 'tans' a few weeks before and I know they never touched my skin.


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## Kat Stevens (18 Mar 2021)

Troops hate to wear DEU and see it as punishment because
a) it’s uncomfortable
b) it’s high maintenance, and
c) it’s expensive to replace. Oh, and 
d) the boots suck

That said, I didn’t mind wearing it when it was required, parades and whatnot. It didn’t bother me to wear it for final out routine, either.


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## Furniture (19 Mar 2021)

ballz said:


> Wish I had you around for advice 4 years ago.


lol I'm sure...

When I was graduating my 6a back in '08 the course WO came in and told the students he was releasing, and the reason was that he could no longer stand putting on the uniform every day. He told all of us that one day it would happen to us as well, and when that day comes we should release. That stuck with me, and it's something I have passed on to all of the people who have worked for me since.

EDIT: I also agree 100% on the DEU needing updating and improvement. They are frankly embarrassing compared to even relatively inexpensive comparable civilian clothing.


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## ballz (19 Mar 2021)

Furniture said:


> lol I'm sure...
> 
> When I was graduating my 6a back in '08 the course WO came in and told the students he was releasing, and the reason was that he could no longer stand putting on the uniform every day. He told all of us that one day it would happen to us as well, and when that day comes we should release. That stuck with me, and it's something I have passed on to all of the people who have worked for me since.



Wasn't kidding! Was on my way out and the CAF offered me an easy road and I figured I could grind it out for another 3 years (which turned into four because of CAF bureaucracy). Of course, the easy road is rarely the right choice and I genuinely regret taking this route, thankfully I'm almost on the other end of it now.


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## SupersonicMax (19 Mar 2021)

Furniture said:


> lol I'm sure...
> 
> When I was graduating my 6a back in '08 the course WO came in and told the students he was releasing, and the reason was that he could no longer stand putting on the uniform every day. He told all of us that one day it would happen to us as well, and when that day comes we should release. That stuck with me, and it's something I have passed on to all of the people who have worked for me since.
> 
> EDIT: I also agree 100% on the DEU needing updating and improvement. They are frankly embarrassing compared to even relatively inexpensive comparable civilian clothing.


I am pretty sure your WO wasn’t speaking literally but figuratively!


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## daftandbarmy (19 Mar 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I am pretty sure your WO wasn’t speaking literally but figuratively!



Unless he was referring to Garrison Dress, of course...


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## FJAG (19 Mar 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Unless he was referring to Garrison Dress, of course...


Okay. I'll admit it. I'm one of those guys who liked Garrison dress. It was a HUGE improvement over work dress.

I also quite liked the tan DEU (notwithstanding we wore black shoes and green hats with it.) The summer dress version was quite nice and could look quite sharp.

Never did like the green DEUs (or its almost identical green predecessor). Always found them a) uncomfortable and b) looking like a 1940's Toronto bus driver.







🍻


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## ModlrMike (19 Mar 2021)

My last appointment on the day was with the CO and RSM who bade me farewell. It only seemed right that on my last day in uniform (which wasn't my last day of service*), that I actually wore my uniform. I can't say that I was the least bit put out by this. It seemed entirely appropriate to me. That being said, if it's not your thing, and there's no mandate to do it, choose whatever.

*nevermind the part about me being PRes now


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## BurmaShave (19 Mar 2021)

Lumber said:


> Really? It's dress of the day in naval shore units.



Maybe I'm biased, but your guys' 3s/1As look waaaay better than the RCAF ones.

Also, DEUs as punishment is partially a pilot quirk. The schools use it a lot as a "you messed up", so being the only guy in DEU feels like a screwup (parades etc are different). The same goes for CADPAT; you have to turn in your flying kit within 48 hours if you wash out, so I have a visceral "what happened?!?" when I see a pilot in CADPAT, even though he just spilled pasta sauce on his only flightsuit and had to improvise.


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## Furniture (19 Mar 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I am pretty sure your WO wasn’t speaking literally but figuratively!


Very true, we've all had a day or 300 in our careers when putting on the uniform was a chore!

It was pretty solid advice in my opinion though, when you're at the stage of just collecting pay it's time to go.


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## OldSolduer (19 Mar 2021)

The Army tan uniform was very good for what it was intended but the Army Commander at the time decided that the DEU Rifle Green was the only dress uniform that would be issued to Army personnel. Garrison dress was an abomination and a huge waste of money.


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Mar 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The Army tan uniform was very good for what it was intended but the Army Commander at the time decided that the DEU Rifle Green was the only dress uniform that would be issued to Army personnel. Garrison dress was an abomination and a huge waste of money.



What the then CLS said about uniforms to the Commons defence committee in 1997 was:





__





						Evidence - NDVA (36-1) - No. 18 - House of Commons of Canada
					

Evidence - NDVA (36-1) - No. 18 - House of Commons of Canada



					www.ourcommons.ca
				



The Chairman: And comment on the uniform.

LGen W.C. Leach: I have every intention to comment on the uniform.

You might notice that my body is shaped the way it is. It's not long and thin; it's a little bit shorter and a little bit broader, and I've been in some of those situations myself.

However, if I want to go back a couple of years and look at what our soldiers said about uniforms, our soldiers said quit screwing us around, we don't need a lot of different uniforms, we just need the basic uniforms and let's make some decisions and get on with life. The soldiers said there are two uniforms that are important if you're a soldier, and one is combat clothing; get it for us, get the right amount, get the right type, because when we're on the battlefield we want to feel comfortable operationally, comfortable personally, and then morale will be okay. We're addressing that.

The second issue from the soldiers is why is it that we have this green uniform, which is technically called rifle green and which the soldiers like, and the tan uniform, which you described quite well—I would probably be a little ruder and cruder—what people look like in it. So we made a decision. I've made a decision. I've been led to believe by the Chief of the Defence Staff that he agrees with my decision and would be making it happen. The army is going to give the soldiers what they want. There are going to be two uniforms in the army in the future, and they're going to be combat and this uniform, the green. We are going to stop swapping back and forth. We are going to stop wearing a uniform in the summer that doesn't breathe and makes you like a bag of you know what and is just all-round uncomfortable.

I don't know, I may have pre-empted the opportunities of the minister to say yes or no. But the fact is the soldiers said all these other things are important, but you are absolutely right, dress is critical; why don't you make some decisions and get on with life. We've made them. It's happening. I would expect that as early as this summer you probably aren't going to see people walking around in tan uniforms the way they have in the past. When you tell the soldiers in Bosnia, and they say what are you doing about my dress, and we tell them, even though it's not public yet, they say thank you.


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## rmc_wannabe (19 Mar 2021)

[Fashionista Tangent]

I think the problem with at least Army DEU is that we took something that was poorly designed to fill one specific need and re-rolled it into something completely different. As is tradition for most of the Canadian Army.

 The cut and style of DEU is more akin to a lounge suit (perfect for office wear)  than it is to a military parade uniform. Army DEU is heavy wool, a dark colour that attracts sunlight, and does not move well when doing rifle drill or other kinds of "Public Duties" stuff.

Operational Dress is always something that will need tweaking and tuning to advance with technology and the nature of warfare. Dress uniform is timeless (or should be at least). Take the USMC or the Brigade of Guards in the UK; their operational dress has moved faster and more efficiently in adapting to technological advances (Plate carriers, MOLLE, camouflage etc.) but no one is trying to "improve" their parade uniforms because they are a signature look of a Marine or member of the Queen's Guard.

DEU was great for 40 years ago. It hasn't adapted to the reality of the times. You want office dress? Sure, fine. Make it an optional item for folks working at NDHQ. Most people in the Army wear DEUs twice a year, three times if their is a Charge of Command Parade. I'd rather wear Patrols or someting similar that look like a military uniform more than a cheap suit off the rack at Moore's. 

If you want people to not feel like its a drag to wear the uniform, make it either comfortable or attractive to wear it.
[/Fashioinista Tangent]


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## PMedMoe (19 Mar 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The Army tan uniform was very good for what it was intended but the Army Commander at the time decided that the DEU Rifle Green was the only dress uniform that would be issued to Army personnel. Garrison dress was an abomination and a huge waste of money.


And promised a "summer weight" uniform.  Has that materialized yet?  Nope, let's worry about executive curls and morale patches instead.


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## FJAG (19 Mar 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> What the then CLS said about uniforms to the Commons defence committee in 1997 was:
> 
> ...  look at what our soldiers said about uniforms, our soldiers said quit screwing us around, we don't need a lot of different uniforms, ...
> The second issue from the soldiers is why is it that we have this green uniform, which is technically called rifle green and which the soldiers like, and the tan uniform, which you described quite well—I would probably be a little ruder and cruder—what people look like in it. So we made a decision. I've made a decision. ...  The army is going to give the soldiers what they want. ... We are going to stop wearing a uniform in the summer that doesn't breathe and makes you like a bag of you know what and is just all-round uncomfortable.


No one asked me or the people I worked with.

Thanks for making my summer dress comfortable by giving me a winter weight uniform that I had to wear year round.

I still believe we lost the tan uniform because it didn't have the same "slimming effect" on him that the dark uniform had and he looked like a bag of $%^& in it.


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## PuckChaser (21 Mar 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> When your dress of the day is operational dress, wearing a DEU can be a punishment not because of how long it takes to get ready but rather, for being singled out for having messed up.





BurmaShave said:


> Maybe I'm biased, but your guys' 3s/1As look waaaay better than the RCAF ones.
> 
> Also, DEUs as punishment is partially a pilot quirk. The schools use it a lot as a "you messed up", so being the only guy in DEU feels like a screwup (parades etc are different). The same goes for CADPAT; you have to turn in your flying kit within 48 hours if you wash out, so I have a visceral "what happened?!?" when I see a pilot in CADPAT, even though he just spilled pasta sauce on his only flightsuit and had to improvise.



This is the context I was missing on your statements, SSM. Makes much more sense to me why you'd feel that way about the DEU. I'd also propose to you the problem isn't with the DEU, it's how it's being utilized and the solution isn't less DEU but more of it when appropriate.

And just to circle back to the whole out clearance thing, if someone in CADPAT got offended I wasn't in DEU for a clearance appointment, they'd be politely told to pound sand. There's nothing wrong with DEU for clearances, if the people you're clearing in/out from are also wearing it. If they're wearing Operational Dress (and you've turned that in), nothing wrong with business casual to mirror the professional environment you're in.


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## dapaterson (21 Mar 2021)

Frankly, if they're in CADPAT, you should wear cargo pants with an oversized shirt and Doc Martens.


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## Zoomie (22 Mar 2021)

Our former CDS (the former green guy, not the recently former RCN one) got angry at the aircrew at 437 Sqn (Polaris unit) when they didn’t serve him a snack quick enough or recognize that he was the CDS (as the story goes).  His punishment was they had to wear they DEU everywhere except over the skies of Iraq while conducting AAR ops.   Dudes were flying into Kuwait for a transport mission, wearing their shiney blues.   This is why we see DEUs as punshiment, because our senior leaders set the example and use them as such...


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## Halifax Tar (22 Mar 2021)

My dress of the day is salt an peppers and I hate the uniform.  It's poorly made and very uncomfortable.  My only saving grace is Logistick Unicorps is completely out of stock and my pants have all fallen apart.

In my opinion we need 2 orders of dress; a Work/Combat uniform and a Parade/Formal uniform.  The former should be for every day use whether operational or in an office and the latter should be for formal occasions or parades.  But its the CAF we complicate everything.


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## FSTO (22 Mar 2021)

I purchased 4 pairs of black non wrinkle pants with the "action waist"  and I'm always comfortable wearing them. I put in a request through the clothing and dress committee to get these type through Logistik Corp. Talking with Logistik corp I found out that they already have those type of pants in stock but the military has yet to request the change. 
I have yet to see if my request has made it to the Naval Cothing and Dress Committee.


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## Halifax Tar (22 Mar 2021)

FSTO said:


> I purchased 4 pairs of *black non wrinkle pants with the "action waist"*  and I'm always comfortable wearing them. I put in a request through the clothing and dress committee to get these type through Logistik Corp. Talking with Logistik corp I found out that they already have those type of pants in stock but the military has yet to request the change.
> I have yet to see if my request has made it to the Naval Cothing and Dress Committee.



Is that some sort of PO joke  lol   In all seriousness, what is an action waist ?


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## PuckChaser (22 Mar 2021)

It moves when you move so the pants don't bind or bunch up. I've got a pair of flex fabric slacks that look completely normal but are so much more comfortable that wearing dress pants.


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## Furniture (22 Mar 2021)

Zoomie said:


> Our former CDS (the former green guy, not the recently former RCN one) got angry at the aircrew at 437 Sqn (Polaris unit) when they didn’t serve him a snack quick enough or recognize that he was the CDS (as the story goes).  His punishment was they had to wear they DEU everywhere except over the skies of Iraq while conducting AAR ops.   Dudes were flying into Kuwait for a transport mission, wearing their shiney blues.   This is why we see DEUs as punshiment, because our senior leaders set the example and use them as such...


I was in Trenton when that was going on, and from the Wing Commander at the time, the reason for DEUs was to try to instill a professional image of the crew, both to the crew and to the passengers. If the crew were easy to distinguish in DEU, while passengers were in operational dress the thought was that there would be more clear lines of authority.

Also, based on what was said at the Wing Commanders briefing, it was done in because of the "party flight", and the notion that the flight crew wasn't sure they had the authority to do anything about the passengers behaviour.

Unless you're referring to a different time, in which case maybe there is truth to the rumor.

Edit: I also believe the decision on the dress for 437 passenger flights came from the Wing Commander, and not the CDS.


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## BurmaShave (22 Mar 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> This is the context I was missing on your statements, SSM. Makes much more sense to me why you'd feel that way about the DEU. I'd also propose to you the problem isn't with the DEU, it's how it's being utilized and the solution isn't less DEU but more of it when appropriate.


That seems like a very “army” solution, don’t you think? “The pilots don’t like DEU? They prefer their Nomex PJs? Well, we have just the solution. More DEU!”


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## PuckChaser (22 Mar 2021)

While we're throwing environmental daggers, why are folks putting wear and tear into national shortage items like flight suits when not actively flying? If the environment is appropriate, folks should be wearing DEU. That statement shouldnt be taboo, and maybe if it was more actively worn we'd have a bigger push to get higher quality items.

And the Army would have people in FFO on parades, not more DEU. Makes us look ready to fight with upside down bayonets and empty mag pouches.


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## Furniture (22 Mar 2021)

BurmaShave said:


> That seems like a very “army” solution, don’t you think? “The pilots don’t like DEU? They prefer their Nomex PJs? Well, we have just the solution. More DEU!”


I think most people's issues with DEU would go away if they wore it more often, and I've been blue my whole career. 

DEU needs improvement in the quality control, materials, and cut. That said, it's still more appropriate for sitting at a desk sending emails and filling spreadsheets, than CADPAT, flight suits, or NCDs. I myself dreaded wearing DEU before coming to Ottawa, but quickly realized it was more comfortable than CADPAT when working in an office.


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## Good2Golf (22 Mar 2021)

Furniture said:


> Also, based on what was said at the Wing Commanders briefing, it was done in because of the "party flight", and the notion that the flight crew wasn't sure they had the authority to do anything about the passengers behaviour.





Furniture said:


> If that was the ‘notion’ then there are issues with the Aircraft Captain’s understanding of their authorities.


If that was the ‘notion’ then there are issues with the Aircraft Captain’s understanding of their authorities.  



Furniture said:


> I think most people's issues with DEU would go away if they wore it more often, and I've been blue my whole career.
> 
> DEU needs improvement in the quality control, materials, and cut. That said, it's still more appropriate for sitting at a desk sending emails and filling spreadsheets, than CADPAT, flight suits, or NCDs. I myself dreaded wearing DEU before coming to Ottawa, but quickly realized it was more comfortable than CADPAT when working in an office.


Especially given that the Air Force allows short sleeves throughout the year indoors.

Because...room temperature.


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## dapaterson (22 Mar 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Especially given that the Air Force allows short sleeves throughout the year indoors.
> 
> Because...room temperature.



Clearly you've never worked for a fighter pilot at NDHQ insisting on long sleeves, tie and sweater once winter dress kicks in.


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## FJAG (22 Mar 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> If that was the ‘notion’ then there are issues with the Aircraft Captain’s understanding of their authorities.
> 
> 
> Especially given that the Air Force allows short sleeves throughout the year indoors.
> ...


My three years in Ottawa I wore a sweater year round.

Because ... room temperature.


🥶


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## Good2Golf (22 Mar 2021)

FJAG said:


> My three years in Ottawa I wore a sweater year round.
> 
> Because ... room temperature.
> 
> ...


Maybe it was my Scottish genes...NDQH was always pretty warm for me...especially so inside the wonderfully stuffy Conf Rm B. 😉


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## OldSolduer (22 Mar 2021)

As an retired Army CWO and RSM I really do have to shake my head at how something so simple could be made so complicated.


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## SupersonicMax (22 Mar 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> As an retired Army CWO and RSM I really do have to shake my head at how something so simple could be made so complicated.


Agreed.  I don’t understand how the CAF can spend time and money in useless dress initiatives, such as making a leather jacket for aircrew or introducing pips and crowns in record time, but yet, can’t seem to figure out how to produce non-operational clothing that is functional and comfortable.


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## Good2Golf (22 Mar 2021)

BTW, the leather jackets were for anyone in the RCAF, not just aircrew. 😉


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## Weinie (22 Mar 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> BTW, the leather jackets were for anyone in the RCAF, not just aircrew. 😉


Well yeah, so everybody could look like Maverick.


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## Good2Golf (22 Mar 2021)

Or non-dead Goose...


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## Kat Stevens (22 Mar 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> As an retired Army CWO and RSM I really do have to shake my head at how something so simple could be made so complicated.


You’re kidding, right? A CWO was responsible for us having to walk around Wainwright with three different hats in our pockets during pre deployment training with 2VP in 96.  You guys aren’t immune lol.


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## Halifax Tar (22 Mar 2021)

Again we couple simplify this with one uniform for work and one for formal and parade occasions.  

Not sure why we need a bazillion different versions things.


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## BurmaShave (22 Mar 2021)

Furniture said:


> DEU needs improvement in the quality control, materials, and cut. That said, it's still more appropriate for sitting at a desk sending emails and filling spreadsheets, than CADPAT, flight suits, or NCDs. I myself dreaded wearing DEU before coming to Ottawa, but quickly realized it was more comfortable than CADPAT when working in an office.


For sure, 3Bs would be much better if they fit. I’m tall and thin. How, in a service of primarily young men (for whom this build is not uncommon), can I not get a short sleeve shirt that fits correctly?

Harkening back to the authority thing, in no way do I project more authority/professionalism/office-appropriate-vibe in a parachute of a short sleeve shirt or a dumpy v-neck sweater than I do in a flight suit. Flight suits fit me, and look a damn sight more professional than some ill-fitting business wear.


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## Furniture (22 Mar 2021)

BurmaShave said:


> Harkening back to the authority thing, in no way do I project more authority/professionalism/office-appropriate-vibe in a parachute of a short sleeve shirt or a dumpy v-neck sweater than I do in a flight suit. Flight suits fit me, and look a damn sight more professional than some ill-fitting business wear.





Good2Golf said:


> If that was the ‘notion’ then there are issues with the Aircraft Captain’s understanding of their authorities.


I'm not the Wing Commander, so I can't answer for it beyond what was said in my presence. I get the idea of putting the crew in a different dress than passengers though... the whole uniform thing that airlines, police, firefighters, etc. have used to great effect for a couple of years now. 

As to the image.... Flights suits look cool, but to the average person used to seeing airline pilots, DEU is a more professional image. I watched a guy jay walk to Canadian Tire on Coventry Rd today at about noon, and even as a military member it took a second to realize I was seeing someone in a flight suit. It was just green clothes with a weird blue hat, until I looked closer to see what he was wearing. All that to say, flight suits look professional to aircrew, DEU looks professional to average people.


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## SupersonicMax (22 Mar 2021)

Furniture said:


> I'm not the Wing Commander, so I can't answer for it beyond what was said in my presence. I get the idea of putting the crew in a different dress than passengers though... the whole uniform thing that airlines, police, firefighters, etc. have used to great effect for a couple of years now.
> 
> As to the image.... Flights suits look cool, but to the average person used to seeing airline pilots, DEU is a more professional image. I watched a guy jay walk to Canadian Tire on Coventry Rd today at about noon, and even as a military member it took a second to realize I was seeing someone in a flight suit. It was just green clothes with a weird blue hat, until I looked closer to see what he was wearing. All that to say, flight suits look professional to aircrew, DEU looks professional to average people.



Great but we do not serve "average people." We serve the military. Military pilots, while some may do work that is close to what an airline pilot would do, are not airline pilots.


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## PuckChaser (23 Mar 2021)

But they want the work conditions and pay of airline pilots right?


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## SupersonicMax (23 Mar 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> But they want the work conditions and pay of airline pilots right?


No, we want market pay.  There are jobs outside of airline pilot jobs.  Top Aces, helo rigs, corporate, all of which have a different dress code than suit and tie, and bring home often more than an airline pilot.

And no one is asking to work 12 days a month.  We just want to stop working 25 days a month, often at 10+ hours a day.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Mar 2021)

But still not have to pay for the training that allows you to fly.....unlike those other jobs you mention??


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## SupersonicMax (23 Mar 2021)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> But still not have to pay for the training that allows you to fly.....unlike those other jobs you mention??


There are competitive subsidized programs on the civilian street too.


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## Furniture (23 Mar 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Great but we do not serve "average people." We serve the military. Military pilots, while some may do work that is close to what an airline pilot would do, are not airline pilots.


Specifically we are discussing military pilots serving in the role of civilian airline pilots, as when not carrying PAX they were authorized to wear flight suits.

Also, 437 does serve "average" people, in that civilians routinely fly onboard military aircraft, particularly on "team Canada" trips. On those trips specifically, aircrew not looking anything like the passengers is a bonus, as the civilian passengers can easily identify who is crew and who is just a rider.  Edit: So in the case of a problem onboard, the civilian would know exactly who to speak with, rather than being confused by the sea of green/brown. 

I raised the point about seeing someone in a flight suit outside a normal circumstance to highlight that even military personnel who are accustomed to seeing flight suits can be momentarily confused when the flight suit is out of it's normal context.


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## SupersonicMax (23 Mar 2021)

Furniture said:


> Specifically we are discussing military pilots serving in the role of civilian airline pilots, as when not carrying PAX they were authorized to wear flight suits.
> 
> Also, 437 does serve "average" people, in that civilians routinely fly onboard military aircraft, particularly on "team Canada" trips. On those trips specifically, aircrew not looking anything like the passengers is a bonus, as the civilian passengers can easily identify who is crew and who is just a rider.  Edit: So in the case of a problem onboard, the civilian would know exactly who to speak with, rather than being confused by the sea of green/brown.
> 
> I raised the point about seeing someone in a flight suit outside a normal circumstance to highlight that even military personnel who are accustomed to seeing flight suits can be momentarily confused when the flight suit is out of it's normal context.


Not all civilians are average people. I would argue that those riding for the “team Canada” trips are not. Before the flight, the flight attendants will identify themselves.  That should give them a clue as to who they need to talk to.

If a military person has issues recognizing a military uniform from their own service, perhaps that person needs more education. Lobbying for changing that dress is, IMO, no more than ill-founded contempt for people wearing that uniform.  

I was part of the relocation of a flying unit from Cold Lake to the NCR recently and you should have seen the battles we had to fight to be allowed to wear the dress we are required to wear for safety reasons. To quote a very senior NCM “aircrew won’t be all special in Ottawa.”


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## Furniture (23 Mar 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Not all civilians are average people. I would argue that those riding for the “team Canada” trips are not. Before the flight, the flight attendants will identify themselves.  That should give them a clue as to who they need to talk to.
> 
> If a military person has issues recognizing a military uniform from their own service, perhaps that person needs more education. Lobbying for changing that dress is, IMO, no more than ill-founded contempt for people wearing that uniform.
> 
> I was part of the relocation of a flying unit from Cold Lake to the NCR recently and you should have seen the battles we had to fight to be allowed to wear the dress we are required to wear for safety reasons. To quote a very senior NCM “aircrew won’t be all special in Ottawa.”


1) Introductions done a couple of hours ago likely mean little after a couple of drinks, and some some drunk hockey player grabs your ass. Being able to clearly identify the crew from the passengers, who could also be in the same/similar operational order of dress, is a reasonable thing. Most civilians don't know much about out uniforms, or what they mean. My experience with several "team Canada" trips is the civilians on them had no idea what our rank/element was. 

2) You seem to have a bit of chip on your shoulder, I never suggested people who are expected to be flying/working on aircraft should be in DEU. I suggested that those siting at a desk should be. If the RCN has figured out how to get people from sound asleep, to dressed to fight fires in under six minutes, the RCAF can figure out how to get air crew from DEU into flight suits in a reasonable amount of time, as required. 

I'm also against people wearing CADPAT and NCDs to sit at a desk writing emails, but oddly enough none of them accuse me of "contempt", perhaps the contempt lays with the accuser not the accused.


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## Good2Golf (23 Mar 2021)

Since the tangent seems to have people seized of the issue, I will expand on my tangential point earlier was that if people think that the 437 Sqn personnel wearing DEU on that Team Canada flight would have made it easier to control the flight, I think that is mistaken.  The first order action by flight crew should have been by the flight stewards to stop serving alcohol to those passengers that were conducting themselves inappropriately.  Failing that, the aircraft captain should have come back to sort the situation out if the flight crew couldn’t - they have the authority to maintain the safety of the flight vested by the NDA. At any point, any serving member closest to the civilians should have said something, and I am disappointed that the senior member on board, a GO I believe, didn’t say anything to stabilize the decision.

At no point in any of the proceedings in that flight do I think flight crew wearing DEU vice flying  suit, would have made one iota of difference.


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## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2021)

Furniture said:


> I'm also against people wearing CADPAT and NCDs to sit at a desk writing emails, but oddly enough none of them accuse me of "contempt", perhaps the contempt lays with the accuser not the accused.



I hold you contempt for supporting me having to wear S&Ps every day.  

Why should people at a desk doing staff work be uncomfortable, or have to wear dress pants and a tie ?  Why do we need to be similar to a civilian sector in our own lines ?  We aren't civilians, and we should dress to express that, operationally.  Unless a formal situation (mess dinner, parade ect) calls for formal attire.


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## FSTO (23 Mar 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I hold you contempt for supporting me having to wear S&Ps every day.
> 
> Why should people at a desk doing staff work be uncomfortable, or have to wear dress pants and a tie ?  Why do we need to be similar to a civilian sector in our own lines ?  We aren't civilians, and we should dress to express that, operationally.  Unless a formal situation (mess dinner, parade ect) calls for formal attire.


You do have a choice (somewhat) to wear the open collar short sleeve shirt or the long sleeve with a tie. Maybe we could loosen the regs a bit and have a long sleeve shirt open collar option? 

For me, NCD's were worn when crossing the brow to go to sea (or to go out to the range) full stop. Others think that sports jersey, backwards ball cap, grey sweat pants and white new balance sneakers are formal attire (sorry GOFO's )


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## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2021)

FSTO said:


> You do have a choice (somewhat) to wear the open collar short sleeve shirt or the long sleeve with a tie. Maybe we could loosen the regs a bit and have a long sleeve shirt open collar option?
> 
> For me, NCD's were worn when crossing the brow to go to sea (or to go out to the range) full stop. Others think that sports jersey, backwards ball cap, grey sweat pants and white new balance sneakers are formal attire (sorry GOFO's )



I am not arguing to drop all dress standards and just let the children go wild in their cubicles.  Just a simplification of our orders of dress and amount of uniforms.  1 for work (office or operational) and one formal.  Keep it simple.  Oh and peaked caps on the bridge for officers


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## FSTO (23 Mar 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I am not arguing to drop all dress standards and just let the children go wild in their cubicles.  Just a simplification of our orders of dress and amount of uniforms.  1 for work (office or operational) and one formal.  Keep it simple.  *Oh and peaked caps on the bridge for officers*


Love it! Can I have a telescope as well?


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## Halifax Tar (23 Mar 2021)

FSTO said:


> Love it! Can I have a telescope as well?


Only if it comes with a monocle.


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## Furniture (23 Mar 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> I hold you contempt for supporting me having to wear S&Ps every day.
> 
> Why should people at a desk doing staff work be uncomfortable, or have to wear dress pants and a tie ?  Why do we need to be similar to a civilian sector in our own lines ?  We aren't civilians, and we should dress to express that, operationally.  Unless a formal situation (mess dinner, parade ect) calls for formal attire.


I can live with that.


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## Zoomie (24 Mar 2021)

437 bubbas wearing DEU during non VIP missions was a punishment - straight from the mouths of 437 bubbas themselves.

I don’t think I will ever work a job that involves wearing 3Bs daily - I did that for 8 months at the language school as a 2Lt, I don’t plan on working in the NCR or going to a place of higher learning.   I’m OK about that - I think the rest of the CAF is OK about that too.   I am wearing the same flight suits I got issued in 2004 - how am I wearing out operational gear again?

I agree with Max - we’re not airline pilots, don’t make us dress up as them.  

If someone doesn’t recognize what a RCAF flight suit looks like, while posted to a RCAF base, I think they need to spend more time out of their bubble. (IMHO)


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## FSTO (24 Mar 2021)

Zoomie said:


> 437 bubbas wearing DEU during non VIP missions was a punishment - straight from the mouths of 437 bubbas themselves.
> 
> I don’t think I will ever work a job that involves wearing 3Bs daily - I did that for 8 months at the language school as a 2Lt, I don’t plan on working in the NCR or going to a place of higher learning.   I’m OK about that - I think the rest of the CAF is OK about that too.   I am wearing the same flight suits I got issued in 2004 - how am I wearing out operational gear again?
> 
> ...


Fair enough, I just find it hilarious that Light Col walking about the NCR wearing a flight suit who hasn't seen the inside of an aircraft for years is a little silly. I feel the same about Army and Navy folks wearing their combats in the office as well.


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## Halifax Tar (24 Mar 2021)

FSTO said:


> Fair enough, I just find it hilarious that Light Col walking about the NCR wearing a flight suit who hasn't seen the inside of an aircraft for years is a little silly. I feel the same about Army and Navy folks wearing their combats in the office as well.



Its funny it goes both ways.  Having spent all my time up until Sept 2020 in operational dress I always looked at those in 3Bs as out of touch and whos jobs are simply justified by a constant drone of RFI with the header "regret short fuse".   Working a staff job now, I feel I was justified in my conception of things, and if the Adm would just give me half an hour I would cull this place like the fruit and veg locker the day before storing ship.

But back to dress, why do people in an office setting need to be in dress pants and a dress shirt ?  If its just daily routine and nothing formal is going on they why are they more formally dressed ?  Again, formal occasions or press conferences I get it, makes sense to put up the buttons and bows, for daily routine I dont get it.


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## FSTO (24 Mar 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Its funny it goes both ways.  Having spent all my time up until Sept 2020 in operational dress I always looked at those in 3Bs as out of touch and whos jobs are simply justified by a constant drone of RFI with the header "regret short fuse".   Working a staff job now, I feel I was justified in my conception of things, and if the Adm would just give me half an hour I would cull this place like the fruit and veg locker the day before storing ship.
> 
> But back to dress, why do people in an office setting need to be in dress pants and a dress shirt ?  If its just daily routine and nothing formal is going on they why are they more formally dressed ?  Again, formal occasions or press conferences I get it, makes sense to put up the buttons and bows, for daily routine I dont get it.


Because that's the "Operational" clothes of the office?

An aside, but when I joined the fleet in the 90's we officers only wore combats when we actually sailed, and this was during a time when we had to pay for our non-combat clothing.

Another aside, we won a pretty serious war wearing uniforms that was both ceremonial dress and combat dress.


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## Halifax Tar (24 Mar 2021)

FSTO said:


> Because that's the "Operational" clothes of the office?
> 
> An aside, but when I joined the fleet in the 90's we officers only wore combats when we actually sailed, and this was during a time when we had to pay for our non-combat clothing.
> 
> Another aside, we won a pretty serious war wearing uniforms that was both ceremonial dress and combat dress.



So basically because we've always done it that, you liked it that way; and WW2 ?


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## FSTO (24 Mar 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> So basically because we've always done it that, you liked it that way; and WW2 ?


Of course!
I'm a dinosaur and I'll be retiring in 210 days so it really doesn't matter what I think! 

Cheers!


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## Halifax Tar (24 Mar 2021)

FSTO said:


> Of course!
> I'm a dinosaur and I'll be retiring in 210 days so it really doesn't matter what I think!
> 
> Cheers!



Thank you for your service and I hope you get the fullest enjoyment out of your retirement, I have no doubt you earned every minute.


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## lenaitch (24 Mar 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> But back to dress, why do people in an office setting need to be in dress pants and a dress shirt ?  If its just daily routine and nothing formal is going on they why are they more formally dressed ?  Again, formal occasions or press conferences I get it, makes sense to put up the buttons and bows, for daily routine I dont get it.


I can't comment on the military culture or its many environments, but does not every industry/profession have their corporate 'uniform'?  Places like IT can generally be pretty casual, but folks toiling away in a Bay St. law firm or something are likely expected to wear a suit and tie.  It's part of their image they are wanting to project.

I spent about half of my police career in a headquarters environment, and about half of that in non-designated plain clothes positions.  I was quite happy to wear the clothes they paid for, if for no other reason that morning wardrobe decisions were eliminated.  In the plains clothes roles, suit and tie was the expected norm and only partially compensated.


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## mariomike (24 Mar 2021)

FJAG said:


> Always found them a) uncomfortable and b) looking like a 1940's Toronto bus driver.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The men pictured are all middle-aged, but TTC uniforms were top quality. Made to measure tailor made by Sainthill Levine. You could always tell a new operator because they wore business suits ( with a TTC hat ) while waiting for their uniforms to arrive.

I almost never had occasion to wear my dress uniform, but they were also Sainthill Levine.



> I was quite happy to wear the clothes they paid for, if for no other reason that morning wardrobe decisions were eliminated.



I felt the same way, but my street uniform stayed in my locker. Never brought it home. Dark blue shirt, pants, jacket and parka. Got out out just before they switched to a sort of piss yellow / puke green jacket, with florescent stripes on the shirt and parts. "High visability" I believe they called it.

I'm no judge of military fashion, but I thought our 1949 pattern RCASC battledress looked pretty sharp. The creases certainly were.


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## Ostrozac (24 Mar 2021)

mariomike said:


> I'm no judge of military fashion, but I thought our 1949 pattern RCASC battledress looked pretty sharp. The creases certainly were.


I’m a firm believer that if the Army had adopted, as Garrison Dress, the old Battle Dress in modern merino wool and polar fleece fabrics that we’d all still be wearing it as dress of the day. That way our expensive combat uniforms could be used for the field, and our unpopular DEU would be used for parliamentary committees and courts martial.


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## Furniture (24 Mar 2021)

Zoomie said:


> 437 bubbas wearing DEU during non VIP missions was a punishment - straight from the mouths of 437 bubbas themselves.
> 
> I don’t think I will ever work a job that involves wearing 3Bs daily - I did that for 8 months at the language school as a 2Lt, I don’t plan on working in the NCR or going to a place of higher learning.   I’m OK about that - I think the rest of the CAF is OK about that too.   I am wearing the same flight suits I got issued in 2004 - how am I wearing out operational gear again?
> 
> ...


Last I checked Ottawa isn't an airbase, and the DND building on Coventry Rd. is nowhere near an airfield. In fact the nearest airfield is 6.5km by road away, and Ottawa international is 13.7km by road from there... It's cute though that you you and SSM have decided to make it personal and go after me though.


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## Navy_Pete (24 Mar 2021)

Halifax Tar said:


> Its funny it goes both ways.  Having spent all my time up until Sept 2020 in operational dress I always looked at those in 3Bs as out of touch and whos jobs are simply justified by a constant drone of RFI with the header "regret short fuse".   Working a staff job now, I feel I was justified in my conception of things, and if the Adm would just give me half an hour I would cull this place like the fruit and veg locker the day before storing ship.
> 
> But back to dress, why do people in an office setting need to be in dress pants and a dress shirt ?  If its just daily routine and nothing formal is going on they why are they more formally dressed ?  Again, formal occasions or press conferences I get it, makes sense to put up the buttons and bows, for daily routine I dont get it.


The NCDs cost about $500 for a matching outfit and there is usually a shortage on the coasts are common sizes. Doubt the DEUs cost more than $100 for the pants/shirt/shoes combo, and no impact on operational supplies.

We don't have anything between DEUs and flame retardant clothing, but 3Bs is basically business casual with some bling, except I don't have to pay for it. And stomping around an office in work boots is just dumb. At least the army and chair force boots are more comfortable.


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## Weinie (24 Mar 2021)

Maybe this thread should be titled “Duress during final release appt.”


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## BurmaShave (24 Mar 2021)

Weinie said:


> Maybe this thread should be titled “Duress during final release appt.”


My vote is: Furniture vs. The Pilots (or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Flight Suit)

I feel like this is kinda my fault, sorry MJP.


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## BurmaShave (24 Mar 2021)

Furniture said:


> Last I checked Ottawa isn't an airbase, and the DND building on Coventry Rd. is nowhere near an airfield. In fact the nearest airfield is 6.5km by road away, and Ottawa international is 13.7km by road from there... It's cute though that you you and SSM have decided to make it personal and go after me though.


The decimal distances really drive home your point, although I don't think it's the one you were trying to make. That being said, 412 and AETE are both operational flying units based in Ottawa (and thus employ all manner of 'orrible flight suited jaywalkers).



Furniture said:


> 2) You seem to have a bit of chip on your shoulder, I never suggested people who are expected to be flying/working on aircraft should be in DEU. I suggested that those siting at a desk should be. If the RCN has figured out how to get people from sound asleep, to dressed to fight fires in under six minutes, the RCAF can figure out how to get air crew from DEU into flight suits in a reasonable amount of time, as required.



This seems like it's talking about operational units (which, I imagine, is where Ditch's complaint came from). Perhaps I'm misreading, though.

I hope I haven't been offensive (and you left me out of the personal attacks complaint intentionally, not in oversight). However, the above suggestion and the "flightsuits are less professional because they're difficult to recognize on jaywalkers" anecdote reinforces to me that the "main effort" aircraft, maintainers, and aircrew of the Air Force are a lot further, physically and metaphorically, than a mere six point five kilometres from 285 Coventry Road.


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## Halifax Tar (25 Mar 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> The NCDs cost about $500 for a matching outfit and there is usually a shortage on the coasts are common sizes. Doubt the DEUs cost more than $100 for the pants/shirt/shoes combo, and no impact on operational supplies.
> 
> We don't have anything between DEUs and flame retardant clothing, but 3Bs is basically business casual with some bling, except I don't have to pay for it. And stomping around an office in work boots is just dumb. At least the army and chair force boots are more comfortable.



Just ran a quick tally on my own NCDs this morning using CGCS: X2 Jackets, X3 Pants, X3 Shirts = $967.19 (That is the basic SOI)

Using the DRMIS portal and BI we can pull up peoples clothing DOCs and run queries on where our stock sits.  The massive amount of operational kit on peoples accounts that is over and above their entitlement is the problem;  not people sitting in an office with NCDs vice S&Ps.

Another exacerbating issue is unlike Army Combats we aren't in the good practice of laundering and recycling the NCDs that get returned.  Meaning if I turn in a pair of pants that have no defect, lets say they don't fit or I am above my entitlement, these should be laundered and put back into the CFSS. This rarely happens with NCDs.  And I dont know why.  Go to your local Army Surplus store and look for NCD pants, shits and Jackets.  Tons of serviceable kit is sitting there.  We have bad material management practices, thats the issue; not work space dress.

Personally I would go the way of the USN.  Your first issue is free, after that you have to pay for you kit.  Its funny when people pay for things, they tend to take care of them and get as much life out of them as they can.


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## Pelorus (25 Mar 2021)

Personally paying, assuming that there's a clothing allowing to account for reasonable life-cycling, would be fine if the NCDs were of decent quality.

Paying out of pocket for replacements would quickly add to the current list of things contributing to member dissatisfaction if they had to pay every time the pants tore in the crotch during an unexpected slip on a slippery deck, or the shirt tore from catching in on a protruding object onboard, or even when the collar simply frayed after a comically small number of times through the laundry, etc.

I don't have any experience with the new NCDs, hopefully they aren't as god awful.


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## Happy Guy (9 Sep 2021)

Interestingly how this post quickly diverged from what to wear on your final day to operational and non-operational (DEU) dress.

I retired in Jul 2021 after 41 years of service and I wore civilians on my last day.  For context, I wore the CF Greens when I joined and my first unit SSM was a Korean War vet.  I have a very traditional mindset towards uniforms - don't get me going on sloppy dress, berets, and hands in the pockets.  I was an NCM before I became an Officer.

Summary:
Agree  - many members especially those of us who served in the CA, especially those on Army Bases, consider wearing the DEU as punishment, to be worn for disciplinary events, however I am proud to wear it for Remembrance Day.

I wore civilians for my final day because I was only seeing the civilian Release Clerk at NDHQ. I wore DEU with ribbons for my final farewell with the BGen which mattered.

I am a traditionalist but I am also a realist.  The CAF needs to rationalize its operational and non-operational uniform needs and consider both types as essential before any real substantial change can happen.  DEUs are important because traditions and ceremony are important to the CAF.  The CDS, CCWO, the Environmental Comds, and Comd CWOs are all aware of the DEU deficiencies but, and I agree with the them, operations are the priority and that is where the majority of the limited funding must go. At best, incremental changes to the DEU is what the CAF can do. 

Yes - retirement is GREAT!


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## ballz (9 Sep 2021)

I was wondering where this thread went.... my WO used to be an RMS Clerk and she told at one of her units when people were coming in on their last day, they had to report to the OR as their last stop to be cleared out, be inspected by the DSM, if their DEUs weren't up to standard they were inspected until it was, sent home to fix stuff if necessary, before the OR would clear them out, and then finally allowed to proceed to their final release appointment. It was literally turned into a walk of shame.

So how's that for "depart with dignity" and why DEUs are viewed as a punishment. Nothing like deliberately screwing someone around and treating them like a child right up until they sign the last piece of paper to make them feel "proud" wearing that uniform.


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## OldSolduer (9 Sep 2021)

ballz said:


> I was wondering where this thread went.... my WO used to be an RMS Clerk and she told at one of her units when people were coming in on their last day, they had to report to the OR as their last stop to be cleared out, be inspected by the DSM, if their DEUs weren't up to standard they were inspected until it was, sent home to fix stuff if necessary, before the OR would clear them out, and then finally allowed to proceed to their final release appointment. It was literally turned into a walk of shame.
> 
> So how's that for "depart with dignity" and why DEUs are viewed as a punishment. Nothing like deliberately screwing someone around and treating them like a child right up until they sign the last piece of paper to make them feel "proud" wearing that uniform.


Utter bullshit. or should I say "chicken" shit?


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