# Survey on National Monument to Canada's Mission in Afghanistan



## dangerboy (21 May 2021)

Here is the online survey on the proposed designs for the National Monument to Canada's Mission in Afghanistan. The monument will be located in Ottawa across from the Canadian War Museum:

Online Survey: Proposed designs for the National Monument to Canada’s Mission in Afghanistan - Canada.ca

I will say that looking at the designs I don't like most of them.


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## dimsum (21 May 2021)

dangerboy said:


> I will say that looking at the designs I don't like most of them.


Yeah.  Although the PFS studio one (the black-walled walkway) reminds me of the US Vietnam War Memorial, which I like.


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## Old Sweat (21 May 2021)

I pretty well agree with Dangerboy. A little too much artistry, and not enough remembrance. Also, for the theme and the base colour, I would like too be reminded of the prevailing arid drabness, but maybe that is going too far. To my, long-retired military mind, the helmet on the butt of a vertical rifle with its bayonet driven into the ground is hard to beat.


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## FJAG (21 May 2021)

Didn't like any of them. This is what a memorial should look like in my mind:







The fifth one - Stimson - was the least offensive to me.

🍻


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## dangerboy (21 May 2021)

FJAG said:


> Didn't like any of them. This is what a memorial should look like in my mind:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am in full agreement. I think they should go back to the drawing board and start again. I also picked Stimson as I thought it was the best of a bunch of bad ideas and made me think it had a military connection.  The PFS studio was too similar in my opinion to the American Vietnam War memorial.


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## Loachman (21 May 2021)

Dear Sir, Madame, or Miss

Should I have sent this to the wrong e-mail account, please forward it to the correct one.

I just filled out the subject survey. Well, left much blank actually because there were no good options in many cases...

I cannot express how sad I am about those five entries. I do not want to think about what the losing entries looked like.

These are, at best, nothingness. They are pathetic examples of modern abstract "art", completely devoid of meaning. The term "Artsy-fartsy" could have been coined for them, had it not already been in existence long ago. There is no reality, no human content. It is clear that nobody on any of the teams has any understanding of our experience, and likely never could.

Compared to earlier cenotaphs and war memorials, they would be better left unbuilt - or, if the artists' egos demand their construction, keep them free of any claimed link to Afghanistan.

I lost friends there. Three men that I know lost their sons there. One man that I know lost his father there. I went to funerals, in many cases for guys that I'd never met but to show support to their families. More men that I know came back broken, either physically or mentally. I attended ramp ceremonies in Kandahar for some - too many - of our departing dead and ramp ceremonies in Trenton for some of those returning. I cannot describe the deep, wrenching sadness that I felt and still feel whenever I am reminded of so many shattered lives.

These weak attempts capture none of that. I would not visit any of them. They do not honour our dead and wounded. They ignore them completely, and, in doing so, insult them.

I find the Stimson one to be the least offensive, but depictions of empty helmets and ballistic and tactical vests still cuts out the PEOPLE who wore them. It is, perhaps, salvageable, with work.

So far, the best memorial that I have seen was the one that grew naturally in Kandahar. A permanent version of that, built to withstand Canadian weather conditions would be ideal.

Most of my experience in two tours in Kandahar was extremely positive. We achieved much, and would have achieved more had we stayed. Some of that could also be portrayed, but it is not.

Please, please, please start again. Send any "artists" involved to spend some time with troops in the field, either on exercise or deployment. Better yet, engage Silvia Pecota Studio. Silvia understands, and her works show it.

Loachman, CD
Canadian Armed Forces 1973-2016


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## dimsum (21 May 2021)

On second thought, have something representing a ramp ceremony.  Etched on the wall, as a statue, or something else.

I propose this one:


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## blacktriangle (21 May 2021)

I think they could take some inspiration from the Canadian Firefighters Monument that's in the same area. I always found that one fairly moving. 

If a firefighter can stand with axe, why not a soldier in FFO w/ C7...


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## Loachman (21 May 2021)

A Med Tech treating a child, somebody probing for IEDs....

Even one of the Tim Horton's peeps.

pc.clmhc-hsmbc.pc@canada.ca and pch.info-info.pch@canada.cawere were the two addresses that I used, in case anybody else wants to join in as well.


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## Loachman (21 May 2021)

dimsum said:


> On second thought, have something representing a ramp ceremony.  Etched on the wall, as a statue, or something else.
> 
> I propose this one:
> 
> View attachment 65239


That could be done with false perspective - imagine an area limiting the area from which people could view it, like a frame to that picture, with a sculpture of the troops - including the chappie in the foreground - and the Herc receding into the distance, and lit the same way.

Names could be listed around the sides of the "frame".

You could have saved us taxpayers a ton of money wasted to date and ended up with a *real* monument, you silly boy. Why did you not get involved a year or ten ago, or however long this has been crawling along/festering?


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## Edward Campbell (21 May 2021)

Given that the people picking the design will be the same sorts of folks who picked this for the Navy Memorial in Ottawa, I suspect that something totally meaningless will "win."


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## The Bread Guy (21 May 2021)

dimsum said:


> Yeah.  Although the PFS studio one (the black-walled walkway) reminds me of the US Vietnam War Memorial, which I like.


I remember a TON of opposition to the design of the Vietnam memorial when the drawings were first released, but it really is quite moving, and more and more people have said so over time.


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## dapaterson (21 May 2021)

A simple place for quiet contemplation and reflection is first and foremost what I would like.  

I find the Hapa layout too busy (for lack of a better word); the Lashley proposal seems targeted towards architects with design choices that seem empty (to me); as already noted, the PFS design overly derivative of Maya Lin's Vietnam memorial; the Stimson design feels too cut off from everything around it.

I find the Daoust proposal to be my preferred choice.


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## FJAG (21 May 2021)

Did you notice how there was no choice for free-form comments. Just - pick one of these monstrosities so that we can say we consulted the public. I'll be sending an email as well.

🍻


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## brihard (21 May 2021)

The Stinson one sucks the least, but that's the best I can say. It does, at least, propose to have the names and years of the fallen. I would like to hope the sculptor would reference helmets and load bearing equipment accurate to what we wore.


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## Loachman (21 May 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> I remember a TON of opposition to the design of the Vietnam memorial when the drawings were first released, but it really is quite moving, and more and more people have said so over time.


Yes, and kept that in mind as I looked at them all.


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## Loachman (21 May 2021)

FJAG said:


> Did you notice how there was no choice for free-form comments. Just - pick one of these monstrosities so that we can say we consulted the public. I'll be sending an email as well.
> 
> 🍻


Yup.


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## Furniture (21 May 2021)

You'd think that with a perfect example of what a war memorial should look like just down the street, they would have been able to come up with something appropriate. Of the choices, the Stimson one is the best in my opinion, but the tacvest and helmet need fixing.


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## quadrapiper (21 May 2021)

dapaterson said:


> A simple place for quiet contemplation and reflection is first and foremost what I would like.
> 
> I find the Hapa layout too busy (for lack of a better word); the Lashley proposal seems targeted towards architects with design choices that seem empty (to me); as already noted, the PFS design overly derivative of Maya Lin's Vietnam memorial; the Stimson design feels too cut off from everything around it.
> 
> I find the Daoust proposal to be my preferred choice.


Quite like the Daoust proposal as well, out of the available options: the stone openwork seems like a regional touch (not sure if used in Afghanistan specifically, though). Would also lend itself to adding statuary at some point.

The PFS design seems likely to collect leaves, runoff, and trash, as well as being derivative of a fairly unique design. The Lashley one feels like too many possibly good ideas in one place and broken up in a bad way: odd that they used what looks like a Hesco barrier motif in a spot not visible in any of the proper approaches to the monument (1:06 in the video). Not sure how well the arid CADPAT paving would hold up, either.


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## daftandbarmy (21 May 2021)

Edward Campbell said:


> Given that the people picking the design will be the same sorts of folks who picked this for the Navy Memorial in Ottawa, I suspect that something totally meaningless will "win."View attachment 65241


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## dimsum (21 May 2021)

Edward Campbell said:


> Given that the people picking the design will be the same sorts of folks who picked this for the Navy Memorial in Ottawa, I suspect that something totally meaningless will "win."View attachment 65241


Yeah - I still don't really get what that's about.


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## Jarnhamar (21 May 2021)

dimsum said:


> Yeah - I still don't really get what that's about.


Looks like a ball that's about to get dropped.


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## Good2Golf (21 May 2021)

They all fail to connect fully.  Although not what first came to mind as a war monument, I find the Daoust to be the least worst...I was embedded with the Afghan government and we had a meeting and parter area in the compound that the Daoust monument reminds me of, as it related to working with Afghans to improve their own country.   The other monuments seem to either be some artists completely disconnected impression of what some/most/all of Afghanistan was about, or poorly executed copies/similarities to other previous monuments.  Vests on crosses by themselves seems like an ‘almost, but didn’t hit the Mark’ and few have a link either to Canadians at home supporting (perhaps a representation of one of the bridges overhead the Highway of Heroes?) or Afghans trying to make their nation better, but experiencing tragedy along that path...

Loachman’s suggestion to engage with Silvia Picota is a good one...had the honour of hosting her on one of her trips to AFG...she gets it...ask for her help.

overall: disappointing


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## Maxman1 (22 May 2021)

The Stemson design seems like the best of the worst, or at least the one I hated the least. The rest are meaningless, soulless "modern" art and look more like a city park than a war memorial.


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## daftandbarmy (22 May 2021)

dimsum said:


> Yeah - I still don't really get what that's about.



Like the Peacekeeping memorial. 

Simply ugly. Especially in contrast to the National War Memorial, which is stunningly beautiful.

As I wandered through the (unexpectedly gigantic) PKM it I thought 'WTF is this supposed to be about?'.

It does an amazing disservice to Peacekeeping though, which was likely unintentional but probably the result of a cenotaph designed by committee.


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## Haggis (22 May 2021)

If the survey doesn't identify a clear winner, one in tune with the politically correct notion of contemporary remembrance, the message will be that the Canadian public chose not to commemorate the Afghanistan conflict.


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## dimsum (22 May 2021)

Haggis said:


> Canadian public chose not to commemorate the Afghanistan conflict


That's pretty much what's happening now, isn't it.


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## Blackadder1916 (22 May 2021)

How do I dislike these designs, let me count the ways . . .  wait, there's no mechanism at their website to properly do so.  At my first attempt to register my displeasure, I clicked forward the pages, couldn't check any of the boxes indicating which design best met their list of criteria (none of them did for me), didn't have three "adjectives" (is crap an adjective?) and when you go past that page, it's submitted.  Had to use my tablet to get another kick at the cat (one submission per device).  This time my adjectives consisted of "derivative" (PFS Studio), "meaningless" and "crap".

I didn't serve in Afghanistan.  I knew a few of those whose names will probably be etched on the memorial - at least one that I could call a friend.  I shouldn't get worked up over this, it's likely that one of these five designs will eventually get selected regardless of any comment I (or other members of this forum) provide.  Maybe it's for the best that I have no plans to return to Ottawa, so it's likely that I will never have to see what finally get puts in that space and compare what my emotions are with the "design concepts" that these pieces of ________ (_fill in your own description_) hoped to evoke.


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## DeweyDecimal (23 May 2021)

FJAG said:


> Did you notice how there was no choice for free-form comments. Just - pick one of these monstrosities so that we can say we consulted the public. I'll be sending an email as well.
> 
> 🍻



There was a pretty extensive consultation  process prior to the design competition :



			https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/afghanistan-monument/report


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## daftandbarmy (23 May 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> How do I dislike these designs, let me count the ways . . .  wait, there's no mechanism at their website to properly do so.  At my first attempt to register my displeasure, I clicked forward the pages, couldn't check any of the boxes indicating which design best met their list of criteria (none of them did for me), didn't have three "adjectives" (is crap an adjective?) and when you go past that page, it's submitted.  Had to use my tablet to get another kick at the cat (one submission per device).  This time my adjectives consisted of "derivative" (PFS Studio), "meaningless" and "crap".
> 
> I didn't serve in Afghanistan.  I knew a few of those whose names will probably be etched on the memorial - at least one that I could call a friend.  I shouldn't get worked up over this, it's likely that one of these five designs will eventually get selected regardless of any comment I (or other members of this forum) provide.  Maybe it's for the best that I have no plans to return to Ottawa, so it's likely that I will never have to see what finally get puts in that space and compare what my emotions are with the "design concepts" that these pieces of ________ (_fill in your own description_) hoped to evoke.



To quote Monty Python: 'We already got one'

*The Afghanistan Memorial
Dedicated: 30 September 2017
Interpretive Panels Unveiled: 11 April 2018
by Her Honour, The Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC, Lieutenant Governor of British Columbia*

*Visit the BC Afghanistan Memorial*

The BC Afghanistan Memorial is located in Victoria at the corner of Quadra and Courtney Streets, behind the Provincial Courthouse and across from Christ Church Cathedral.



			BC Afghanistan Memorial  |


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## Blackadder1916 (23 May 2021)

DeweyDecimal said:


> There was a pretty extensive consultation  process prior to the design competition :
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/afghanistan-monument/report



And back then the online consultation was noted on this site.



The Bread Guy said:


> The latest ...
> 
> More info about the proposed memorial here, and you can fill out the online survey here.



I don't know if anyone else took advantage of the opportunity to participate, but back then the input they sought was what the memorial should represent.  Now, they are looking for validation about what it should look like.  Design doesn't always adequately translate what individuals want to say.  I think it may be safe to say that many who have commented here are traditionalists when it comes to memorials.


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## McG (23 May 2021)

FJAG said:


> Did you notice how there was no choice for free-form comments. Just - pick one of these monstrosities so that we can say we consulted the public. I'll be sending an email as well.


It does let you apply three adjectives to each proposal.  If you think they are irrelevant, out-of-touch, pretentious, horrid, ostentatious, or "meh" then you can label them as such.


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## Loachman (23 May 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> To quote Monty Python: 'We already got one'
> 
> *The Afghanistan Memorial
> Dedicated: 30 September 2017
> ...



That looks decent.


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## The Bread Guy (23 May 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> To quote Monty Python: 'We already got two' ...


FTFY (admittedly not the "national" one, either -- also a PFS Studio product @ Queen's Park) ...


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## OldSolduer (24 May 2021)

Personally I'd like to see statues of some of the likenesses of our soldiers who served there. I have a concept in my head fighting to get out. 

"Outside The Wire" is the title I'd give it.


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## FJAG (24 May 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Personally I'd like to see statues of some of the likenesses of our soldiers who served there. I have a concept in my head fighting to get out.
> 
> "Outside The Wire" is the title I'd give it.


Something like this:







or this:






or a portion of this:






🍻


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## OldSolduer (24 May 2021)

FJAG said:


> Something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The middle one


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## Loachman (25 May 2021)

INFO/INFO (PCH)<pch.info-info.pch@canada.ca>, pch.recherchedopinionpublique-publicopinionresearch.pch@canada.ca

Dear Client Service and Public Support Person

I do not know your name, so cannot thank you as I would prefer, but know that I truly appreciate your response below.

In truth, like most, I have long been cynical about governments so such a rapid response is refreshing.

I shared my concerns with friends and colleagues online, and received much the same comments as my own in reply. Some thought that various designs were less-offensive than others, but nobody seemed to truly like any of them.

One guy posted a photograph of the new Navy Memorial, which also failed, dismally, to inspire or to have any discernible meaning. It is a wall with a golden orb affixed to its top. One comment was that it represents a "dropped ball", ie a failure.

We received tremendous support from the Canadian public during that campaign, which was heartening.

One wonders what that same supportive public would think if they knew how those of us who went feel about these designs.

One also wonders if those responsible for design and selection - here's that cynicism again - really care enough about what we and that supportive public thinks to halt it and start again.

But you, at least, have done your part, and so I thank you again for that.

Loachman

On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 11:32:17 AM EDT, INFO/INFO (PCH) <pch.info-info.pch@canada.ca> wrote:



> Hello,





> We received the email below from Loachman regarding the
> On-line Questionnaire on Finalists’ Design Proposals for the
> National Monument to Canada’s Mission in Afghanistan.





> Please respond directly to Loachman at Loachman@something.com





> Thank you and have a nice day.





> Client Service and Public Support





> Department of Canadian Heritage | Government of Canada





> PCH.info-info.PCH@canada.ca


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## Loachman (25 May 2021)

I just sent what I had previously written to information@veterans.gc.ca after viewing:









						Share your thoughts on the five proposed designs for the National Monument to Canada’s Mission in Afghanistan
					

We invite all Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) members to take a moment to view the concepts and complete the short survey before June 9




					www.canada.ca


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## Maxman1 (29 May 2021)

I do like how the concept art of the ripoff of the Vietnam memorial shows it full of leaves.


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## The Bread Guy (29 May 2021)

FJAG said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here's how they did it in Washington DC for the Korean War memorial ...

Maybe a variation on both themes?  Wouldn't even need as much space with only 4 statues and a backing wall.


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## Blackadder1916 (29 May 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> Here's how they did it in Washington DC for the Korean War memorial ...



And they're not finished yet.  From just over a week ago.









						Korean War Veterans Memorial Wall Groundbreaking Ceremony
					

The Korean War Veterans Memorial Foundation hosted a groundbreaking ceremony for the Korean War Veterans Memorial Wall of Remembrance at the National Mall in Washington, D.C. South Korean President Moon Jae-In attended the ceremony and made brief remarks.




					www.c-span.org
				




And in comparison, the Korean War Monument in Ottawa





						Monument to Canadian Fallen (Korean War Monument) - Canada.ca
					






					www.canada.ca


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## Edward Campbell (29 May 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> And they're not finished yet.  From just over a week ago.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just a personal thing ... I like our Korean Memorial, it is a mirror image of the one in Busan.


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## dangerboy (30 May 2021)

Edward Campbell said:


> Just a personal thing ... I like our Korean Memorial, it is a mirror image of the one in Busan.View attachment 65306


It was designed by a 2 PPCLI veteran of the Battle of Kapyong, Vincent R. Courtnay.


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