# Changes or Cancelation of LDA coming?



## autoedge (14 Jan 2011)

I have news from a very accurate source about LDA not being passed for this FY. Its been said that it will cease 1 APR 2011 and be replaced with a higher paying FOA. All I can see is two things. The CF is short on cash and the people in the field will now me the ones with the money. Can't with to see all the people who bought a house and will now have to scrape. never bank on an allowance. also command heads have had this info before we all went on Christmas leave. Happy New year.


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## dangerboy (14 Jan 2011)

No offense, but until something official comes out I will treat this as just another wild rumour.


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## acooper (14 Jan 2011)

Thank you for saying that nicer than I was about to... right now, with what info has been provided, I can't read it as anything other than rumor...


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## 9nr Domestic (28 Jan 2011)

Scuttlebutt is that with the army looking like it is returning to the dark days LDA is getting cancelled.  Anyone have any info on this?  Thanks


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## ModlrMike (28 Jan 2011)

Any change to LDA would likely involve Aircrew allowance and SDA as they've been essentially harmonized. I can't see LDA being cut after the Army put so much energy into getting it. Don't put much stock in this rumour until you see something official.


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## twistedfang790 (26 Oct 2011)

Last month our unit was told that LDA will be ending but not given a specific date, i was wondering if its gonna be end of the fiscal year.
Is there actually any sites with info on what kinda of other cuts to allowances in the other two branches of the military.

thanks.


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## CountDC (26 Oct 2011)

I doubt that LDA will be ending forces wide.  It may have another transformation but more likely it is simply that your unit has been warned that in Apr they will no longer be on the designated list.  Last year they removed a bunch of the MP's, don't know if there were any changes this year.

What is the source your info came from?  Reliable?  References?  (no references lowers the reliability)

There is no way they are taking away the sailors port drinking fund or getting the air force to give up their latte fund.


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## jollyjacktar (26 Oct 2011)

WHAT?  The zoomies have a latte fund!!?!?!  When did this occur I must have been asleep when that came about.  They better not get rid of my port drinking fund.... it's about the only perk left.


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## Cardstonkid (26 Oct 2011)

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/all-ind/faq/lda-isc-eng.asp

Here is some info on the topic that should clear up some confusion.


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## HItorMiss (26 Oct 2011)

The OP isn't asking about details of LDA Card

He is asking about the info he received at work from his CoC that LDA is being cancelled. He is not the first person to have heard this but as of yet there is no official policy on what is actually occurring


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## RCR Grunt (26 Oct 2011)

twistedfang790 said:
			
		

> Last month our unit was told that LDA will be ending but not given a specific date, i was wondering if its gonna be end of the fiscal year.
> Is there actually any sites with info on what kinda of other cuts to allowances in the other two branches of the military.
> 
> thanks.



Funny... Last month I got this in an O Group:

"From the Commander of the Army:  LDA will remain as it is now with no changes in the foreseeable future."

Now maybe that only applies to where I currently work, but by looking at your profile I suspect we work in similar circles.  Maybe there are changes coming for other parts of the army.

It's funny though how rumors spread.

IMO:  Unless they pry sea pay away from the sailors and aircrew pay away from the airmen, then LDA will remain.


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## McG (26 Oct 2011)

Anyone's Grunt said:
			
		

> IMO:  Unless they pry sea pay away from the sailors and aircrew pay away from the airmen, then LDA will remain.


The system needs to change.  It rewards people based on a posting message regardless of if they actually go to the field or not.  At the same time, it does not recognize staff at Army schools - many of whom spend more time in the field than most operational units.


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## PuckChaser (26 Oct 2011)

Anyone's Grunt said:
			
		

> Maybe there are changes coming for other parts of the army.



Rumour mill seems to lean that way, at least where I am.  Army needs to save money, LDA is a big cost. Rationalizing it and removing it from units who do not go to the field often (like the MP detachments it was removed from) seems like the best way to do it without disenfranchising a whole whack load of Cpl/Pte types in the brigades.


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## dapaterson (26 Oct 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Rumour mill seems to lean that way, at least where I am.  Army needs to save money, LDA is a big cost. Rationalizing it and removing it from units who do not go to the field often (like the MP detachments it was removed from) seems like the best way to do it without disenfranchising a whole whack load of Cpl/Pte types in the brigades.



The Army doesn't pay LDA.  The RCAF doesn't pay aircrew.  The RCN doesn't pay SDA.

Well, properly speaking, they don't pay other than the casual allowances.  The monthly allowances for the Reg F are all paid out of the corporate Reg F pay account.  Indeed, when LDA was implemented the Army was permitted to keep the FOA money they previously held - so it was a net increase in available funds within the Army.


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## McG (27 Oct 2011)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Rumour mill seems to lean that way, at least where I am.  Army needs to save money, LDA is a big cost.


Even before budget reductions were a thing of concern, I heard DCBA staff comment that LDA was unaffordable as it currently exists.

However, when the Army decided to take a closer look at how LDA was being implemented the decision was based on several factors (soldier dissatisfaction, challenges of administration, unnecessary CM frictions, fairness, etc) but fiscal concern was not one of the identified factors.

If changes are coming, they are about getting the system right for the Army and for soldiers – the changes will not be about saving money.


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## CountDC (1 Nov 2011)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> WHAT?  The zoomies have a latte fund!!?!?!  When did this occur I must have been asleep when that came about.  They better not get rid of my port drinking fund.... it's about the only perk left.



well jack try coming to Ottawa and mention sliders or makeandmends.  Talk about the look of you have three heads.  There was some "navy" types that couldn't tell the difference between them. 

I see this as the rumour mill overworking again.  There will be some changes coming to try and fix the LDA the way it should be such as when they removed so many MP units.  It would be nice if it included the schools but I wouldn't hold your breath.  We have a similar problem the Navy has wrestled with for years when it comes to sea training.  Some of those guys at points have spent more time at sea in the year than the ships crews but they are still stuck with casual.


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## SeaKingTacco (1 Nov 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The Army doesn't pay LDA.  The RCAF doesn't pay aircrew.  The RCN doesn't pay SDA.
> 
> Well, properly speaking, they don't pay other than the casual allowances.  The monthly allowances for the Reg F are all paid out of the corporate Reg F pay account.  Indeed, when LDA was implemented the Army was permitted to keep the FOA money they previously held - so it was a net increase in available funds within the Army.



To be clear- apples and oranges are being lumped together in the quote above.

SDA and LDA are environmental allowances.  Aircrew Allowance is an example of a specialty allowance, like Submarine allowance, parachute allowance and diving allowance.   There is no such thing as "Air Duty Allowance".


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## Pusser (1 Nov 2011)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> To be clear- apples and oranges are being lumped together in the quote above.
> 
> SDA and LDA are environmental allowances.  Aircrew Allowance is an example of a specialty allowance, like Submarine allowance, parachute allowance and diving allowance.   There is no such thing as "Air Duty Allowance".



Not correct.  Aircrew Allowance IS an Environmental Allowance (see CBI Chapt 205, Section 2 (Environmental Allowances)), as are all the others you mentioned.  It is not a Special Allowance.  In a nutshell, Environmental Allowances are paid for being subjected to certain physical conditions associated with service in specific environments (although their may be other limitations as well).  Special Allowances have more to do with qualifications and/or conditions of service.

There used to be an "Air Duty Allowance" paid to non-aircrew who were flying in a capacity other than as passengers.  It was cancelled about 20-25 years ago.


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## SeaKingTacco (1 Nov 2011)

Thank-you Pusser, I stand corrected.


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## Zoomie (1 Nov 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Special Allowances have more to do with qualifications and/or conditions of service.


Ok, now I am confused.  Could you provide an example?


> There used to be an "Air Duty Allowance" paid to non-aircrew who were flying in a capacity other than as passengers.


I guess that would make sense as no-one would meet that description anymore.  You are either aircrew or PAX - no in between.  Casual Aircrew Allowance covers those members.

Interesting that a CF member can be in receipt of more than one environmental allowance at a time (ie RCAF pilot serving on board a RCN vessel).


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## SupersonicMax (1 Nov 2011)

Zoomie,

I don't find it interesting.  They endure the "hardship" of both environment, and should be compensated as such.  

Are you in Germany yet?  I'm down in Oberammergau until the 11!


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## Zoomie (1 Nov 2011)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I don't find it interesting.


Hey Max - welcome back from the fight!

The interesting tidbit is that they get to "double-dip" the time towards the next level of LDA, ACRA, SDA, etc (ie 4 years at sea = 8 years of points towards next level)

No father-land for me - I have always been only going down south.  Flew the big jet for the first time last friday.


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## SupersonicMax (1 Nov 2011)

Zoomie:  They did endure twice more the "hardship" than a regular aircrew posting I suppose, so I find it fair.  The way it could be improved is by applying the points to specific allowance (ie: Months at sea only count towards SDA, months in a flying position only count towards ACRA).  But I'm not going to complain so some people to get less money 

Sorry, I though you were the last guy going to GK!


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## Zoomie (1 Nov 2011)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The way it could be improved is by applying the points to specific allowance (ie: Months at sea only count towards SDA, months in a flying position only count towards ACRA).


My thoughts exactly - but like you said....



> Sorry, I though you were the last guy going to GK!


Nope - luckily I have a bit of job security by going down here - also good prospects for combat missions (ie guaranteed SWA, South, ?)
It's a fresh breath of air to be among combat aircrew - I am finding my niche here.  Also good to be flying a heavy jet.  AAR is a good challenge, especially with fly-by-cable flight controls.


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## Pusser (1 Nov 2011)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Ok, now I am confused.  Could you provide an example?



Only a qualified dolphin-wearing submariner can collect Submarine Crew Allowance (SUBCA), and only someone who has met a very specific condition can collect Maternity Allowance (MATA).  Both SUBCA and MATA are Special Allowances.


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## Pusser (1 Nov 2011)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The way it could be improved is by applying the points to specific allowance (ie: Months at sea only count towards SDA, months in a flying position only count towards ACRA).  But I'm not going to complain so some people to get less money



We essentially used to do it that way.  For most members, it makes no huge difference.  However, it could make a huge difference for some support trades.  Keep in mind that many of the specific factors for which some of the Environmental Allowances are paid are the same for each allowance (e.g. wear and tear on the body).  Is it fair for the Sup Tech who has spent 15 years at sea to be paid Level I  LDA when he gets his first field posting?  After all, he has the same creaky joints as the soldier who has spent 15 years in the field.


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## SeaKingTacco (1 Nov 2011)

Zoomie-

At the risk of getting corrected again by pusser, collecting SDA and aircrew allowance simultaneously is common in MH Sqns.  While you collect both allowances, your points towards the next level only advance as if you were in receipt of only one allowance.  At least that is how it was when I was on Sqn.


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## twistedfang790 (2 Nov 2011)

been abit busy around work ,just checked now, and to answer some questions, pretty sure reg force infantry of one specific unit that  would be only affected sounds strange even for me with almost 2 decades soldiering lol;. Now to be fare when everyone that was not in the field at the time was forced to go to  the field to hear a general say something ( heck im a jr  nco that usually only worries about the next time i gotta do ... )i actually was luckily actually doing some time sensitive work( civie hours ).But with the change of the name in the head guy of the army came that annoucement . will happen, happen soon, ........ sooooo with all the connected people low and alot of high that check this site i was hopeing for a bit more specific info. 
alot of people seem to still think this is rumour, while no one seems to know how much or how far cuts will be for not just my branch, but the ROYAL  branches as well . j
(had to throw the royal in  just to raise some bristals.... only because our branche doesnt mind either way .


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## 63 Delta (2 Nov 2011)

Im drunk right now, and even I can tell that post made no sense whatso ever...


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## MJP (2 Nov 2011)

twistedfang790 said:
			
		

> been abit busy around work ,just checked now, and to answer some questions, pretty sure reg force infantry of one specific unit that  would be only affected sounds strange even for me with almost 2 decades soldiering lol;. Now to be fare when everyone that was not in the field at the time was forced to go to  the field to hear a general say something ( heck im a jr  nco that usually only worries about the next time i gotta do ... )i actually was luckily actually doing some time sensitive work( civie hours ).But with the change of the name in the head guy of the army came that annoucement . will happen, happen soon, ........ sooooo with all the connected people low and alot of high that check this site i was hopeing for a bit more specific info.
> alot of people seem to still think this is rumour, while no one seems to know how much or how far cuts will be for not just my branch, but the ROYAL  branches as well . j
> (had to throw the royal in  just to raise some bristals.... only because our branche doesnt mind either way .



I says pardon?


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## twistedfang790 (2 Nov 2011)

thanks, i am not very good at articulating what is in mind to written form. Basically as an infantry unit i am pretty sure we are still on the designated lda list.The general who told my unit i am not sure of but will ask the guys at work.The point i was trying to get across was that with so many members in the forum i was hoping for more info. 
I will keep on plugging away on these forums and eventually my writing skills will improve lol .


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## HeavyHooker (2 Nov 2011)

@ Zoomie:



> It's a fresh breath of air to be among combat aircrew...  Also good to be flying a heavy jet.



I didn't know that combat aircrew and heavy jets could go hand in hand!   >   ;D

HH


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## Zoomie (2 Nov 2011)

HeavyHooker said:
			
		

> I didn't know that combat aircrew and heavy jets could go hand in hand!


Best of all worlds. I fly formation, air to air refuel, contribute to all avenues of the fight - plus have the range/wherewithall to fly anywhere in the world without stopping.


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## aesop081 (2 Nov 2011)

HeavyHooker said:
			
		

> I didn't know that combat aircrew and heavy jets could go hand in hand!   >   ;D


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## HeavyHooker (2 Nov 2011)

Zoomie:  Just a Tac Hel guy busting your balls   :warstory:

CDN Aviator:  Point taken.  I guess the BUFF can be considered combat from 50K ft.  I prefer 50ft personally   :fifty:


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## Zoomie (2 Nov 2011)

HeavyHooker said:
			
		

> Zoomie:  Just a Tac Hel guy busting your balls


I didn't know you guys were aware of sarcasm...   >


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## McG (16 Nov 2011)

So, here is MCG's initial crack at an option for an LDA alternative: _Super_-FOA.

_S_FOA will be based on a daily base rate like CLDA and the old FOA - a key difference will be that this base rate is somewhat higher than either the past or current system.  In this _S_FOA, payment is for actual days in the field but it increments to recognize greater durations of consecutive days as follows:

First 2 days in the field:  90% x base _S_FOA rate
days 3+ in the field: 100% x base _S_FOA rate
days 5+ in the field: 105% x base _S_FOA rate
days 20+ in the field: 110% x base _S_FOA rate
days 40+ in the field: 120% x base _S_FOA rate
days 60+ in the field: 150% x base _S_FOA rate
Saturdays & Sundays will always be a minimum of 100% x base _S_FOA rate when they occur in the first 2 days
Statutory holidays will include a +10% x base _S_FOA rate
A few other fine detail mechanisms would be required.  If a unit takes a long weekend at home in the middle of a two month exercise, the soldiers should not start back at day one when they return, but if a unit is home for every TGIF and weekend during an FTX then that should result in a reset every time.

Unlike other environmental or operational duty allowances (including the current LDA), _S_FOA would not recognize an accumulation of points system.  However, points will be accumulated for all days at rate of % x base that is being paid.  These points will accumulate and be recognized when considering entitlement should members become entitled to a system that does give credit for accumulation of points (so the 5-years-in-a-field-unit Sup Tech is not starting at base rate on posting to a ship).

It is not a perfect mechanism, but I think it addresses the concern of fairness, recognizes that longer field deployments are themselves the cause of greater hardship,  and resolves the CM frictions that resulted from LDA.  On the down side, I don't know that it would improve soldier satisfaction or be easier to administer ... maybe?

Thoughts?


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## dapaterson (16 Nov 2011)

Thought #1:  Too complex.  Simple systems are easier to diagnose and repair when things go horribly wrong.  RMS clerks are human and make mistakes; a system with that many moving pieces would require every member of the Army to spend a disproportionate amount of time monitoring their pay records.

Why not return to the old FOA system, but track accumulated days, and have FOA at different levels - so as you accumulate more days, it is in turn worth more - and thus acts as an incentive to get senior people out in field?  For example, a base rate of $25/day, increasing to a maximum of $70/day.

That way, if the CF School of Basketweaving spends more days in the field than the 2nd Bn, Royal Canadian Basketweavers, the school staff will receive a greater reward and, over time, will also receive a higher level of FOA.


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## McG (16 Nov 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Thought #1:  Too complex.


And that was my principle concern with the option as well.


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## dapaterson (16 Nov 2011)

Or, do we need to start _tabula rasa_ and work forward to identify the behaviour we wish to incentivize, then determine the method to do so?


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