# Hate to revive this topic about uni‘s, Why does FMR CDS have a US SF patch?



## Se7eN (24 May 2001)

It was my Understanding that you could only wear other countries badges when in their country? Am I wrong??

- Se7eN

[ 14 June 2001: Message edited by: Se7eN ]


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## Gunner (24 May 2001)

Garrison Dress and summer tans were discontinued after soldiers complained that it was affecting their quality of life (QOL).  The dissatisfaction came from too many uniforms etc to take care of...combat dress, garrison dress, Winter DEUs, Summer DEUs.  I didn‘t like the garrison camo pattern but I didn‘t have a problem with the concept of garrison dress as long as we didn‘t have to wear that god awful sweater.

I‘m quite familiar with the advent of the Combat Readiness Evaluation that was developed by MGen Vernon as Comd LFCA and the subsequent genesis into an army "Warrior" program.  The Warrior badge was discontinued after the warrior program was bureaucratically destroyed.  The badge was based on your PWT score and your 3.2 km run result.  After the run was deemed in excess of the CF standard it was dropped from the score leaving just the PWT score.  I think there was some concern over whether everyone was tested on an equal footing (cbt arms soldiers get more rounds than CSS) and whether it was fair comparing the results.  At the end it simply collapsed under the weight of bureacracy and it subsequently evovled into minimum level of capablity (MLOC) training and deployment level of capability (DLOC).

I‘m not sure if we ever needed a badge to show what "skill" level we were at.  You are either a soldier or you are not.  To quote a line from Blazing Saddles "Badges, we don‘t need no stinkin badges".

Cheers,


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## JRMACDONALD (25 May 2001)

ICS badges are still worn on DEU(at least , inthe Infantry!)  Garrison dress is in the garbage bin,where it belongs.( along with Work Dress!) ( ever tried to  do an overhaul on a M113, in THAT!!?) We‘ll get someone asking for  re-instatement  of " Regt‘al ****ies/ascots "next!(Patriot,perhaps!!)
As for the "Warrior Badge"  = a command driven response to pers , who didn‘t accept the fact they were soldiers(who should maintain skills) and were deployable!


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## JRMACDONALD (25 May 2001)

Hey Gunner!- yeah, we got more rnds,WE had a harder test! (check the rifle pam)  INFANTRY-everything else IS CBT SUP!(definitely, rear ech!)


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## Grunt031 (25 May 2001)

We don‘t need any badges.  We don‘t need our uniforms covered with trinkets and baubles like the U.S. Army.
I like the U.S. Marine Corps practice.
Nametag and MARINES.
However, I think the army needs some sort of garrison dress (not what we had though).  The combats are just a little too shop monkey looking for some circumstances, while the DEU‘s, with all their regimental regalia (excellent for formal occasions), can be overkill.
A good kit would be a tux for occasions (DEU), and suit for business (A smart, simple garrison dress), and coveralls for doing what were payed to do (Your combats).


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## Gunner (25 May 2001)

JR MacDonald

ICS badges buddy was referring to werer (I believe) the Warrior badges.  

The only thing worn on DEU is the trade badges on the sleeve.

Finally, ...ack your comments on the higher infantry standard for PWT.  We always had our fair share of soldiers who me that standard (even without the extra rounds!).  

Regards,


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## JRMACDONALD (26 May 2001)

Gunner- being an old TOW gunner, SEEN, UNDERSTOOD!( I will suck back and re load!)
However, I would find it interesting to learn how to pass / achieve the INF PWT level 3 test with Fewer rnds than req.( unless , of course there was EXCELLENT communication betwenthe butts and firing line!)   
HEY GRUNT031-?? [QUOTEA good kit would be a tux for occasions (DEU), and suit for business (A smart, simple garrison dress), and coveralls for doing what were payed to do (Your combats). ]  [/QUOTE]  We have DEU for"occasions‘ ,and combats"for doing what were payed to do " . SO what do you mean by "BUSINESS"?????????9 you are, either, on parade or doing" what were payed to do "!!!!


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## Se7eN (26 May 2001)

Why cant we wear qualification badges on our dress unifroms, but countries like the US wear our para wings on their uniforms?


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## JRMACDONALD (26 May 2001)

DEU are our"dress" uniform. CFP 265 is explicit about what may be worn on them. what do you mean, by dress uniform,and Qual badges?


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## Grunt031 (26 May 2001)

We do wear our airborne wings on our DEU‘s.
As for other qualification badges, what specifically do you mean.  Do you want to have a badge for passing an MG or Comms course?
Like I said before, keep it simple, clean and professional.


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## Gunner (27 May 2001)

JRMacDonald, as far as I can remember everyone fired the same PWT....the infantry had to get a higher score than the "other arms".  You could be right as it has been awhile.

By the way...I remember very well the 7.62mm ball point pen.

Cheers!


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## McG (27 May 2001)

The Infantry fire a few extra serials in the PWT level 3.  Other trades that do not test to that level, and so don‘t fire those serials.  It has been a while since I‘ve tested to that level (not being Infatry and all), but the C7 pam describes the additional serials.


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## Se7eN (27 May 2001)

What I mean is say that we qual for the us para course, are we allowed to wear the wings, or say we completed the Ranger course ect(on our dress uniforms)...    On our combats would it not foster esprit des corps to have airborne tabs or other paratrooper, ect..??


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## JRMACDONALD (27 May 2001)

seven-your questions are more specific, and can be answered. CDn Qual badge are , certainly authorized for wear( as mentioned for DEU).Foreign badges, if awarded, are only auth ,if you are stationed/posted in that country( eg. I was in 3RCR/4CMBG/CFE Europe, and was auth to wear my German JUmp Badge and French Commando badge)( if you were posted to the US, you could wear their badges, but not European!) an exception was CDN Airborne Regt, in which, we were allowed to wear foreign Jump wings on our Smocks only! Wearing such badges on Cbts is not allowed and has always been a point of arguement( ask any Ranger qual‘d pers!) CFP 265 is the dress manual and some sections of QR&O, CFAO and drill manual add some guidance. hope this clarifies.
Gunner- the real problem with 556 rd is, you must remember to push the pencil in ONLY SO FAR!


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## Michael Dorosh (31 May 2001)

I dunno, I liked the CF sweater.  At least until we went to England, and saw the beautiful ones the British Army had - each Highland Regiment had its own "jersey", in colours that complemented the colours of their kilts (which they wore as "barracks dress" - some clowns from the Toronto Scottish actually wore their Garrison Jackets in conjunction with their Hodden Grey kilts while we were over there - GAG).

The bus driver jackets and lagoon green shirts were awful, and the Garrison jacket was poorly designed (the waistbelt rode way too high and the jacket was too hot to wear indoors and too light to wear alone on anything but a mild autumn or spring day).  But I think the biggest complaint had to be the boots - high top, high polish boots were an insult to the Airborne Regiment, firstly, and secondly, were the cause of so much additional uniform maintenance - for those who did not join in the rush to get medical chits demanding combat boots.

Would be nice to see a new garrison dress similar to the old British working dress - a cotton OD green shirt that you can tuck in - combine with OD (combat) green denim pants (WITHOUT cargo pockets) you would have  a sharp uniform that you could do the odd bit of maintenance or heavy lifting in as well.  (You could also wear the shirt with trews or the kilt).  Seems silly to wear camouflaged uniforms (this applies equally to garrison dress and the new camo combat uniform) to do office work or classroom lectures in.


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## RCA (31 May 2001)

I adhere to the KISS principal- combats & DEU.

As to badges and qual - Special quals (ie jump wings, flight observors) are worn. As to the warrior badges - good riddance. A badge for something you‘re suppose to know! The good thing is the bringing back of trades badges and bridgde patches.

The more bells and whistles, the more each loses its significance.


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Jun 2001)

> Originally posted by RCA:
> [qb]The more bells and whistles, the more each loses its significance.[/qb]



I disagree.  As long as the bells and whistles are distinct and have a purpose, they will always be significant.  I don‘t see the need for an ARMY badge on the pocket, since I wear an ARMY uniform - on this I agree.  But - using the WW II example - a Wounds Stripe was very distinct from a MARS badge, and both were worn with pride, and both had very distinct meanings.  I like the various insignia - the meaningful ones; the CANADA badge seems as superfluous as the Army badge on the pocket, but the history behind the CANADA badge goes back to WW I (unlike our little pocket pins).  I do like the brigade patches, and hope that some day we will all have Division patches to wear on the opposite shoulder (and dispense with this Land Force crap - why not call them Divisions?)


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## the patriot (10 Jun 2001)

There was one advantage of the Warrior badges.  It kept all those Admin types from turning into obese alcoholics at the mess and actually lifting something larger than a pen from their desks.  Granted a badge for something one already knows........ but how well do they actually know it if they can‘t even pass the current CF Express Test or hit their target (there are alot of them at the reserve level that can‘t pass the express test, infanteers included.  All this Total Force nonsense is making me laugh!!!!!!!   ).  MLOC, DLOC.  Hmmm.... they don‘t even issue the Warrior Handbook anymore from what I hear.  From what I‘m told, all these new recruits are photocopying and laminating copies of the Warrior handbook from their Senior NCO‘s (Minimum Level of Competence, oh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) as we speak.  Welcome to the army of today......... 

-the patriot-


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## Se7eN (10 Jun 2001)

Why were the warrior badges discontinued? 


        :mg:                           :fifty:


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## RCA (10 Jun 2001)

I‘m sure all the "Admin" types appeciate being known as fat, lazy, and alcoholic.

By the way isn‘t anyone just a wee bit concerned that we are being recognized for achieving a minimum level,. What a motivational tool. As far as I remember "met the course standard" was written when you couldn‘t think of anything good to write but didn‘t want to be nasty.


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## Gunner (10 Jun 2001)

Couple of points:

For Se7en - see comments above about the Warrior badges.  Basically the criteria for awarding them disappeared except for the PWT.

For The Patriot - First of all I‘ve seen fat army navy and airforce RMS Clks  I‘ve seen fat combat arms officer, fat combat arms NCOs, fat CSS, etc, etc.  The CF has tried to address this issue with BMI in the 80s and the Army tried to address it with Warrior (3.2km run).  Both of those were discredited and not used anymore.  The army is slowly developing a new test that will meet army requirements and be CF endorsed.  It should be out shortly and it was discussed awhile back.  PT standards in the army are low..the real impact of BMI and Warrior was  all the out of shape people started going to the gym.  We need to get that back.

For RCA...seems to me you put "met course standard" on my course reports a couple of times!


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Jun 2001)

Don‘t know what happened to the warrior badge, and don‘t care. It became degraded as to the standards vice level of award. Standards changed daily and nobody knew where they stood. Good riddance. Wasn‘t recognised outside LFCA for the first three years anyway. LFWA, LFAA and the rest imposed their own standards and defeated the purpose. As I say good riddance many worthwhile training days and dollars were pissed away to make someone in an office feel good. Nuf said. The Armoured still wear trade badges on the bottom of our DEU sleeve. They are graded by qualification (gunner, driver or combination of the two) as well as advance courses. You may see a turret, a tank hull or a complete tank, perhaps with a crown above and maybe surrounded with laurel leaves. At this time a new badge is supposed to be designed for the recce side of the house. My $0.02.


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## Michael Dorosh (10 Jun 2001)

Well, if my claim is being processed, I think I would prefer it be handled by an overweight sergeant who has been in for 20 years and knows his ****, rather than some 25 year old wonder-NCO Airborne wannabe who is tops at PT but still has trouble typing...

One standard for all trades?  Seems kind of silly.  In a perfect world, every soldier in the CF would be able to drive air-brake equipped vehicles, shoot marksman on the C6, C7, C8, and C9, be an expert tank gunner, type 85 words a minute, perform feidl surgery, be able to bake a souffle, and know how to take apart a radio and put it back together again blindfolded.  Will he ever need to use all of those skills?

Tell the truth; do people really kvetch about overweight troops because they are so concerned about "what would happen if he had to go to war" - or are they simply embarrassed because they think someone else‘s appearance reflects on them personally?  If its the latter, get over it.

I‘ve lost 10 pounds in the last couple of weeks by watching what I eat and doing more exercise (going on course this summer) but I‘ve also never been obese.  I also don‘t have a problem with clerks who eat too many donuts, as long as they are doing their jobs well.  Why would I want our chief clerk leading section attacks anyway?  If it came to that, no matter how fit he is, I would say the situation is beyond repair....


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## donkreel (11 Jun 2001)

Some people don‘t mind having a five foot two 265 pound Army/Navy/Air Force NCO doing cenotaph duty on November 11th representing us, or them getting their box of Timbits on the way to the office (to the raised eyebrows of the staff)  "That‘s supposed to defend us?"  A soldier is a soldier!  Ah well...let the public think that these individuals are the average...because the sight of strained buttons on combats stay in a civies mind alot longer than you‘d believe.  They have a low opinion of us as it is...why compound the problem.  Jeez...what ever happened to personal pride in the uniform, and how a person looks while wearing it.


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## Grunt031 (11 Jun 2001)

On the topic of the Warrior Badge, check this out.  It was once posted on a DND website.

****
Prepare for battle (long version) 
by Maj. Richard H. Eaton

â€œThe first qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only the second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier.â€
- Napoleon Bonaparte, Military Maxims -
The Warrior training program has dropped the fitness performance requirement last year. 
Over the last few years, the Warrior program fitness requirement changed annually, dropping from the requirement to complete a 12 km battle march carrying 55 lbs, to no physical requirement at all. Will our current methods of physically and mentally preparing ourselves for the most stressful activity known to man â€“ ground combat â€“ be good enough to ensure that our infantry is tough enough to fight and win the next conflict? Are we, in our efforts to be a fair and equitable employer, doing us, our country, our allies, and our soldiers a disservice by operating a selection system which can not effectively or â€œofficiallyâ€ screen out those who are unable to achieve sufficiently high qualities of battle fitness? 

The aim of this article is to challenge infanteers to develop and implement higher, and more consistently applied, fitness based selection standards for our corps. In addition, it will:


â€¢ Remind us of the physical realities of the dismounted infantry battle, 
â€¢ Review the battle fitness requirements of two other infantry organizations well known for their proven battle fitness standards with a view to modeling our own fitness standards after theirs. 


It is obvious that the job of an infantryman is hard, physically and mentally demanding work. To successfully close with and destroy the enemy, infantrymen must be capable of carrying heavy loads of weapons, ammunition and provisions for long distances over all types of terrain â€“ and through all types of climactic conditions â€“ while encountering and defeating the enemy. Yes, you can count on it, we will no doubt encounter terrain and situations preventing us from motoring through to the objective comfortably embussed in our LAV/ Grizzly/ Bison/ M113. This job description inevitably means that infanteers must be prepared to pack exceptionally heavy loads as dictated by the enemy and terrain. As described by Field Marshall Erwin Rommel, the experiences of him and his troops on the Italian front in 1917 were intensely physically demanding:

â€œThe capture of Mount Matajur occurred fifty-two hours after the start of the offensive ... My mountain troopers were in the thick of battle almost uninterruptedly during these hours ... Here, carrying heavy machine guns on their shoulders â€“ they surmounted elevation differences of eight thousand feet uphill and three thousand downhill, and traversed a distance of twelve [straight line] miles through hostile mountain formationsâ€.

General Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, Infantry Attacks, pp.225

Sixty-five years later during the Falklands campaign of 1982, the experiences of LCpl Vincent Bramley, 3 PARA MG Platoon, were not much different from Rommelâ€™s. Following a two day, 50 mile advance to contact on foot, 3 PARA â€“ festooned with personal weapons, grenades, GPMGs and tripods, anti-tank weapons, and as much ammunition as could be carried â€“ moved off to the start line for their attack on Mt. Longdon:

â€œLying before us was about twelve kilometers of ground and a river. My kit alone weighed about a hundred pounds, possibly more. Many lads in our group had to swap kit throughout the march - a machine gun for a tripod for example. Milans, being bulky and awkward, went from shoulder to shoulder. As daylight faded I could see the thin line of troops disappearing into the darkness, struggling with their kit ...â€

Vincent Bramley, Excursion to Hell â€“ The Battle for Mount Longdon, pp.84

The weight of the ammunition required by the infantry to suppress and destroy the enemy in wartime is clearly the greatest difference between loads we carry in peacetime exercises and war. â€œOur main load was ammunition.â€ recounts Cpl. â€œLoftyâ€ Large of the Jebel Akhdar campaign in Oman, 1959:

â€œI remember having two 3.5 rockets, four 90 (Energa) grenades ... Eight No 36 grenades, six No 80 (white phosphorous) grenades. Five 20-round magazines of rifle ammunition, plus 100 rounds in bandoliers. One 250-round box of .30 calibre machine-gun ammunition ... My bergen rucksack, loaded and ready to go, weighed 98lb. My belt weighed 22 lb. â€“ 120 lb total [without] my rifle. Everyone had similar loads to carry.â€ 

Lofty Large, One Manâ€™s SAS, pp.66-67

How much different would be the load of todayâ€™s dismounted Canadian infantryman? 

Discounting the usual â€œcampingâ€ gear and other superfluous articles we now force ourselves to carry, most of which will no doubt be discarded in preference for more ammo when the â€œreal thingâ€ intrudes on our peacetime reverie, we infantrymen are still looking at hefting a considerable load. In addition to flak jackets, webbing, personal weapons, grenades and ammunition, who is supposed to carry ammo for the crew served weapons? 

Rifle company troops of course. 

This means that Officer and NCM packing 5.56mm bandoliers and link for use in the platoon, as well as 7.62mm link, 60mm and 81mm mortar ammo for use by our support weapons during the attack/ ambush/ advance to contact etc. In addition, now that we have adopted the new Eryx anti-tank weapon, ammunition for this beastie as well as the weapon system itself, will have to be manpacked as required within the rifle company. It seems reasonable to assume that the requirement to manpack loads weighing up to 100 pounds will not be out of the question for our dismounted infantry, now and into the future.

The consequences of inadequate preparation for dismounted warfare are obviously serious. For example, in contrast to the epic physical performances of Parachute Regiment battalions and Royal Marines Commando units in the Falklands War, soldiers of 5 Infantry Bde â€“ taken from a mechanized role â€“ were not nearly as physically or mentally prepared for the realities of dismounted infantry warfare:

â€œOn the afternoon of 3 June [1982], the Welsh Guards began an attempt to march to Goose Green. They walked for twelve hours before 5 Brigade agreed with their CO that the exercise should be abandoned ... however enthusiastic and efficient their officers and men, they could scarcely be as mentally and physically attuned to a campaign in the Falklands as 3 Commando Brigade. They were trained to fight from armoured personnel carriers. â€œWe are not bergen soldiersâ€, as one of their officers said.â€ 

Max Hastings and Simon Jenkins, The Battle for the Falklands, pp.269

As countless infanteers before us have discovered to their disappointment, helicopters and vehicles will not always be available â€“ or able â€“ to carry us to the Assembly Area. So what then should we do? It may be instructive to look at the physical training programs of two infantry based formations renowned for their fitness standards â€“ The Parachute Regiment and Royal Marines â€“ to gain some insight into what our own infantry battle fitness standards should be.


British Parachute Regiment and Royal Marines

These two British infantry organizations are well noted for their high standards of physical fitness. As proven in the Falklands conflict of 1982, and well documented since then, physical toughness and associated mental stamina were key battle winning elements for the British Infantry in that campaign. It is instructive to review their selection systems in comparison to our own:

The Parachute Regiment

The Parachute Regiment recruits its soldiers directly from â€œcivvy streetâ€ via army recruiting depots. The training regimen for Parachute Regiment soldiers consists of what at first glance seems a fairly typical 24 week syllabus for infantry recruits. The major difference, however, is not only the 4 week parachute training course at RAF Brize Norton, comprising weeks 13 to 17, but the physically and mentally demanding Pre-Parachute Selection Course (PPS, or â€œPâ€ Company) tests which occur throughout Week 12. This selection process is designed to weed out those unlikely to succeed in the British Airborne Forces.

Consequently, in addition to the usual types of training delivered in the first three months of any infantrymanâ€™s career, the Parachute Regiment recruit is also subjected to a progressively more challenging battle fitness training program preparing them for success at â€œPâ€ Company. The â€œAll Armsâ€ version of the course â€“ a three week condensed version of the recruitâ€™s experience â€“ is attended by prospective Parachute Regiment officers immediately following their graduation from the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst, as well as all other personnel hoping to serve in the UKâ€™s 5 Airborne Brigade. All candidates must pass â€œPâ€ Company prior to joining either the Parachute Regiment or Airborne Forces. In recognition of their leadership role, Officers are expected to perform to higher standards than other ranks, and are graded against those standards.

Standards are maintained by the â€œPâ€ Company staff, a permanently established training team based at the Depot the Parachute Regiment and Airborne Forces. â€œPâ€ Company staff accompany candidates throughout the course - setting the example by carrying the same if not more weight in their equipment - and constantly review candidate performance based on established standards. â€œPâ€ Company staff are commanded by a Parachute Regiment Major, and include Physical Training Instructors (PTIs) from the Army Physical Training Corps (APTC) as well as Senior NCOs from the Parachute Regiment and other 5 Airborne Brigade formations. 

In the mid-1980s, the â€œPâ€ Company selection process was as described below:

Pre-Parachute Selection (â€œPâ€ Coy) â€“ 4 Weeks

2 Week Preparation:

Most candidates prepare intensively for P Coy prior to arrival at Depot PARA either individually, or with one of the Airborne Brigade units who runs specific preparation courses. Prior to test week, P Coy staff run candidates through an intensive preparation period including circuit training and other gym work, running, and progressively longer marches with weights up to 35 lbs and rifle. Following the 2 week â€œbeat upâ€, candidates move to Test Week as follows:

P Coy Test Week:

Phase Activities Dress/ Equipment Standards 
Friday, Day 1 2 mile cross country steeplechase boots, trousers, PT vest under 18 min, 
Log Race boots, trousers, PT vest, helmet 8 man teams per 130-140 lb log, 1.5 miles across steep terrain, best effort 
Pairs â€œmillingâ€ PT strip, 16oz boxing gloves One minute controlled aggression 
Weekend Rest 
Monday, Day 2 10 mile battle march 35 lb pack, belt order, rifle Cross country in steep terrain, 1 hr 45 min, finish with the PTI and lead group 
Trainasium, High level confidence course (40-50 ft) Boots, PT Vest, helmet Successfully negotiate all obstacles without hesitation 
Assault Course Boots, PT Vest 3 times around in under 18 minutes 
Travel to Wales for Days 3, 4 and 5 
Tuesday, Day 3 18 mile approach march through mountainous terrain 35-40 lb pack, belt order, rifle 4 km/hr, finish with the PTI and lead group 
Wednesday, Day 4 Pen Y Fan: Approx 2,900 ft ascent & descent, 7 miles 35-40 lb pack, belt order, rifle 4km/ hr, finish with the PTI and lead group 
Fan Fawr: Approx 2,400 ft ascent & descent, 5 miles 35-40 lb pack, belt order, rifle 4km/ hr, finish with the PTI and lead group 
6 mile speed march 35-40 lb pack, belt order, rifle 1 hr 10 min, finish with the PTI and lead group 
Thursday, Day 5 Stretcher race Belt order, rifle, helmet 180 lb stretcher, 10-12 man teams, 7.5 miles walk and run (Approx 4 km/hr) 


Royal Marines Commando Course â€“ 8 weeks

Like 5 AB Bde, the Royal Marines recruit both directly from civvy street, as well as running Commando training qualifying Army personnel for service with Brigade support units (e.g. logistics, engineers and artillery). Commando training is supervised by the Training Team at CTCRM Lympstone. Like â€œPâ€ Company, Training Team staff include physical training instructors, and all staff participate in all selection tests undertaken by course candidates. In contrast to the Parasâ€™ fondness for Wales, the Royal Marines prefer to use the nearby Dartmoor mountain training area in south west England for their longer exercises and marches. In the mid-1980s, the Royal Marines Commando course consisted of the following major components:

Phase 1: Pre-All Arms Commando Course: 2 weeks

Passing In Standards: 

â€¢ Boots, denims, combat shirt, 50 sit ups in 2 minutes, 5 chin ups, 
â€¢ 1.5 miles in 15 minutes group run followed by same route individual best effort in under 11.5 minutes 
â€¢ Basic swim test jump from high board in combats and runners & tread water for 2 minutes 
â€¢ Combat Fitness Test: 8 mile march/run cross country 22 lbs webbing, rifle, helmet, in 150 minutes 
â€¢ Jump 5 foot gap, climb into truck 
â€¢ 100 m firemanâ€™s carry in less than 45 sec 


Other Requirements:

â€¢ 4 mile speed march cross country 22 lbs & rifle under 40 minutes. 
â€¢ 30 ft rope climb 22 lbs webbing and rifle 
â€¢ Assault course in under 5 mins 
â€¢ 200 m firemanâ€™s carry under 90 sec 
â€¢ Full rope regain 
â€¢ Basic fieldcraft, weapons, navigation, tactics, two field exercises including progressively longer marches with full equipment (up to 60 lbs or more) 


Following successful completion of Phase 1, course candidates complete the final phase of the course as follows:

Phase 2: Commando Course: 4 weeks

â€¢ 12 mile load carry cross country, 60 lbs, under 4 hrs 
â€¢ 4 mile cross country endurance course (including water and other obstacles) in under 72 mins carrying 22 lbs webbing and rifle, with a 10 round 100m shoot at the end 
â€¢ 9 mile speed march under 90 mins carrying 22 lbs webbing and rifle 
â€¢ "Tarzan" assault course (1 mile) in under 13 mins carrying 22 lbs webbing and rifle 
â€¢ 30 mile Dartmoor march in under 8 hrs carrying 22 lbs webbing, 30 lb pack and rifle 
â€¢ Final exercise Dartmoor, company level dismounted ops, 15-20 km marches, Company sized raiding operations. 


In these two examples, it is clear that the key components of a proven, battle winning infantry fitness training program includes:

â€¢ A clearly defined, widely communicated, battle proven physical fitness standard 
â€¢ A progressive training program culminating in travelling long distances over mountainous terrain carrying heavy loads of weapons and equipment 
â€¢ A combination of â€œgarrisonâ€ and â€œfield basedâ€ physical preparation and selection tests, and 
â€¢ High levels of participation and leadership from a highly qualified training team staff specifically accountable for course delivery standards and outcomes. 


In summary, although it is highly likely that our infantry must be physically fit enough to dismount and fight on foot during any kind of operational deployment, Canadaâ€™s infantry battle fitness standards are currently ill defined. History continues to prove that to fight and win a dismounted battle, the infantryman must be physically and mentally prepared to carry the weapons, equipment and â€“ above all â€“ the ammunition required to successfully close with and destroy the enemy, regardless of the terrain, weather conditions and levels of personal fatigue. It is also reasonable to expect that the combat load of the individual dismounted infantryman will continue to top 100 pounds on occasion, especially for those who man support weapons. Those who insist that the load of the infantryman can be kept at a maximum of â€œ1/3 of body weightâ€, and that â€œfirst lineâ€ ammo scales will be limited to a few magazines and grenades, are ignoring history and the physical realities of dismounted infantry warfare. While it is imperative for both leaders and the led to continue to examine ways to reduce the weight carried by the infantryman, we must also face reality, and continue to seek ways to improve our physical standards while refusing to condone physical mediocrity at all levels in the infantry.

To guide us in the improvement of our fitness standards, we have access to several examples of high quality, battle tested, infantry fitness preparation programs â€“ of which those of the British Parachute Regiment and Royal Marines are only two. Through such analysis, we have the opportunity to benefit from lessons learned the hard way by other infantry organizations around the world and, once and for all, establish a challenging, consistently applied, â€œCanadianizedâ€ battle fitness training program for our infantry. Given todayâ€™s tumultuous world political environment, we must be ready for anything. Consequently, an acceptance of anything less than â€œworld classâ€ levels of infantry battle fitness could prove disastrous to our soldiers, our country and our allies.

Today, we have good reason to heed that oft-quoted maxim: â€œTrain hard, fight easyâ€. 

Major Richard H. Eaton is currently serving with the Canadian Scottish Regiment based in Victoria BC. His military background includes RESO training, parachute training at the CABC, eight years service as an officer with the British Parachute Regiment and Royal Marines, and five years service as a rifle company commander with the militia in BC. His 20-year part â€“ and full-time military career has taken him to far-flung posts such as Northern Ireland, Norway, Oman, Hawaii and Resolute Bay. In civilian life, he is a founding partner in the Victoria-based management consulting firm, Berlin Eaton and Associates Ltd., specializing in organizational performance improvement.
****


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Jun 2001)

> Originally posted by donkreel:
> [qb]Some people don‘t mind having a five foot two 265 pound Army/Navy/Air Force NCO doing cenotaph duty on November 11th representing us, or them getting their box of Timbits on the way to the office (to the raised eyebrows of the staff)  "That‘s supposed to defend us?"  A soldier is a soldier!  Ah well...let the public think that these individuals are the average...because the sight of strained buttons on combats stay in a civies mind alot longer than you‘d believe.  They have a low opinion of us as it is...why compound the problem.  Jeez...what ever happened to personal pride in the uniform, and how a person looks while wearing it.    [/qb]



I completely agree; you would think most people would do their uniforms and stay in shape simply out of personal pride.  And Yeah, it would be great if every soldier in the CF looked like Jean Claude Van Damme.  That‘s never going to happen, though.

I cringe as much as the next one at the thought of some of the people I‘ve seen in uniform going out there to represent us, but really, if you got rid of not just the overweight ones, but the dumb ones, the ones who swear in public, or pick their nose at red lights....etc.  you would have a pretty small Army.  I am not so sure we have the option of being all that choosy.


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## Michael Dorosh (11 Jun 2001)

> The aim of this article is to challenge infanteers to develop and implement higher, and more consistently applied, fitness based selection standards for our corps.



I think that says it all.  I agree that infantrymen need to always strive to exceed the current minimum standards; supporting the infantry in accomplishing their missions (whatever they are) are the most important reason for the existence of the rest of the Canadian Armed Forces.  It is their fitness and skill at arms upon which the rest of the CF relies.  Quite a burden to bear.


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## donkreel (11 Jun 2001)

Yeah, it‘s not a perfect system, by any stretch of the imagination.  I guess in the last few years (I joined when we had 80 000 + personnel) I‘ve seen too many people get out who really made being part of the Forces special, and seen some of those who replaced them (those who were replaced....) treat being part of the Military as being some sort of civilian job ("I don‘t WANT duty this weekend...it isn‘t fair!!", or "I can‘t go on the Roto...who‘ll take care of my dogs!!, etc...)...a real attitude shift took place.  The mememememe set.

Anyway, if someone has a problem with fitness and weight maintenance, they can get help.  If the Forces has invested alot of cash and time in a person, it‘s in their best interest to help maintain that investment.  

This is an old chestnut, but remember who ended up fighting the Germans during the Battle of the Bulge...cooks, clerks and bandsmen...who couldn‘t tell a rifle from a hole in the ground....  Never assume that just because someone works in an office, they won‘t be put in a situation that is less than desirable, and where their abilities as a soldier (vice abilities as cook/clerk/whatever) will determine whether someone else lives or dies.  I know, I know...doubtful it‘ll ever happen, but I‘d rather be safe than sorry, and hey, the chubbies get paid to work out!!  Where on Civie Street would that ever happen!!

It might be an idea to start another thread, maybe one for "Maintenance of Military Training", or whatever....this is kinda interesting...


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## Se7eN (14 Jun 2001)

OK thanks for all the answers but i have one more related question and a totally off base one,

I thought Jump smocks were discontinued after The Regiment was disbanded. But I see CPC troopers wearing them, are they still issued to the CPC? and i see the maroon shirt under it, is that the CAR shirt? what is the deal with the CPC?

Also when is armed forces day????


thanks 
- Se7eN


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## Doug VT (15 Jun 2001)

The Cadre at the CPC all wear the jump smock with a CPC maroon t-shirt under in it, and I see no reason for this practice to be discontinued.  At least someone can do it, and they‘re deserving.


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## Se7eN (15 Jun 2001)

With my qestion I didnt mean it as a bad thing, i think its great they still wear the smock. to me as a civilian it kind of reminds me of the Airborne Regiment, the whole image of wearing a smock.


thanks for the answer

Se7eN


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## Se7eN (3 Jul 2001)

it was my Understanding that you could only wear other countries badges when in their
                     country? Am I wrong??

                     - Se7eN


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