# C7A2 Opinions ??



## Urocyon Cinereoargenteus (18 Apr 2015)

Admittedly I have limited exposure to the C7A2 at this point, but have worked on and built several AR Platform Rifles over the years. Tonight I was reading a review of Weapon Shield CLP over at Loadoutroom (dot) com that was thrown together by CF Member Vincent Sylvain and It kind of upset me. My understanding has always been that the Diemaco product line was considered the best in the world, yet here I was reading a review on (yet another) gun lubricant. But the author took the time to trash our nations service rifles in the process.



> After reading Scott Witner’s review of Weapon Shield CLP, I got curious and swapped it for my issued CLP. It is no secret that the weapons in the Canadian Forces are worn out. Our C7A2, although introduced around 2004-2005, are actually refurbished C7A1s for the most part. They have been in the Canadian Forces arsenal since the mid ’90s. Same goes for our C9 and C6. They have been through a lot and it sometimes shows. Jams are a more-than-frequent occurrence even when our guns are properly maintained.
> During one of our winter exercises, I was assigned as C6 machine gunner. On our final assault, I had around 800 rounds to cover the main body of the assault force. Because it was -20 degrees Centigrade that day, I did not lube my C6 until the very last minute to avoid parts freezing together. Long story short, I had all sorts of jams that resulted in less-than-effective covering fire.



Reading this kind of makes me shake my head, as I don't know how exactly one can 'wear out' a C7.... He goes on to state that they did some cold temperature simunition training (with an FX Blue Bolt and Simuntion rounds) and everybody but him had crazy feeding and cycling issues, so it must be the lubricant that he put on it.

I would appreciate if someone could explain to me (Im new here) how a serving member feels that all our rifles are worn out when they are servicable? Or how he can post it on an international forum for the world to read....particularly when his tests are conducted with an aftermarket bolt carrier group and simunition? I just dont see whats left to fault the rifle besides maybe the gas tube and buffer spring at this point. can feed ramps wear out? I can see how they might not agree with simunition... but thats not the rifles fault. More to the point, are the nations rifles really worn out? If so why aren't the $50 in consumable parts getting replaced? (He never stated what makes our rifles all worn out, so I assume he could be stating the $300 barrels are shot out... I dont know)


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## Kat Stevens (18 Apr 2015)

Opinions are like arseholes, we all have one and most of them stink.  Anything with moving parts can wear out, especially when some of those parts are being propelled at warp speed.  I wouldn't get your panties in too big a wad over this, like any other tool in the service, some are right and tight, and some are rattle boxes.


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## dapaterson (18 Apr 2015)

The C6s (discussed in the quote) are to be modernized over the next few years.  Look at the Defence Acquisition Guide entry:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-defence-acquisition-guide/land-systems.page



> C6 GPMG Modernization
> Replace Existing Systems
> 
> Objective
> ...



As for the C7, the worst problems I ever experienced were feed issues back in the days of the cheap plastic magazines.  Since then, I haven't seen many problems; definitely nothing systemic.


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## RedcapCrusader (18 Apr 2015)

I think the C7, even it's original variant is a fine piece of kit. Now, I'm biased because all I've ever used Post-basic courses is the C8A2, but I truly believe that Diemaco (and now Colt Canada) still makes a quality product and I'd even go so far to say that it is superior to those of our American counterparts.


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## Mr. St-Cyr (18 Apr 2015)

Let me guess, your BFA was not threaded tight enough?  :facepalm:



> During one of our winter exercises, I was assigned as C6 machine gunner. On our final assault, I had around 800 rounds to cover the main body of the assault force. Because it was -20 degrees Centigrade that day, I did not lube my C6 until the very last minute to avoid parts freezing together. Long story short, I had all sorts of jams that resulted in less-than-effective covering fire.


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## Shrek1985 (19 Apr 2015)

The weirdest stoppage I have ever seen was on a C7A2 and I don't find the A2s as balanced as the A1s.

I think the most interesting thing about talking weapons in the CF is how people instantly blame the operator, without knowing anything about the weapons in question. Fact is; proper maintenance gets you fewer stoppages, not none and some of them get pretty weird; triple-feed with one round hung up on top of the bolt head, anyone? 

Wear is a problem, but the C7A2 is hardly the worst offender there. Most of what goes wrong with C7s due to wear you can fix with some newer parts. Though there also seems to be an issue with the newer green pistol grips coming loose a lot easier and I think that probably due to using a different plastic with a different rate of expansion and contraction.

IMO; the C9s are the biggest bundle of weirdness we have going. Those flippin things have more personality gun to gun than anything else we have right now.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Apr 2015)

Most wear and tear on our guns, especially personal ones, is caused by constantly taking them apart and putting them back together.

Not from shooting them.


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## Mr. St-Cyr (19 Apr 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Most wear and tear on our guns, especially personal ones, is caused by constantly taking them apart and putting them back together.
> 
> Not from shooting them.



Ditto. Improper/unorthodox maintenance techniques take their toll.


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## brihard (19 Apr 2015)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> Ditto. Improper/unorthodox maintenance techniques take their toll.



"Make sure you use a cleaning rod to scrape the crown on the inside of the flash suppressor! I want to see that ring silver!"

I lose my effing mind.


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## Dissident (19 Apr 2015)

My question is: How do you personally define "proper maintenance"?


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## Mr. St-Cyr (19 Apr 2015)

Brihard said:
			
		

> "Make sure you use a cleaning rod to scrape the crown on the inside of the flash suppressor! I want to see that ring silver!"
> 
> I lose my effing mind.



Yes. It is painful to see it happen.



			
				NinerSix said:
			
		

> My question is: How do you personally define "proper maintenance"?



Well, in a single phrase I would answer ''do nothing that can damage the finish, fit and function.'' I always gladly answer any follow-up questions on an individual basis.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Apr 2015)

Improper maintenance abounds. From little Johnny Recruit using toilet cleaner to gets his gun clean, to experienced soldiers using sand as an abrasive or scrapping carbon off polished surfaces with a knife, screwdriver or whatever else is handy.

Anyone that's been in since coffee break and has their weapon out of lockup more than once a year, has seen the horror stories.

Our rifle team never took our pistols and rifles apart once the first serial commenced until the end of the week when they needed to be handed back in. Once the parts find their natural fit and start wearing in, leave them alone.


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## Halifax Tar (19 Apr 2015)

As a guy who has run and worked in SQs, CQs  and QMs I have seen some strange cleaning methods.  

I cringe when I see troops attack C7 bolts with knives or gerbers.  I have tried to pass on what I know but most dont listen. 

On the other end of spectrum I saw a Sgt spray her whole C7 with CLP and hand it back in.  Didn't even break open the upper and lower receiver assembly's.  Quick cleaning method though, only took 3 mins.


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## 63 Delta (19 Apr 2015)

From my personal experience, the biggest cause of stoppages for me was from my mags.

The first range on my tour I shot all 10 of my mags and had several stoppages and double feeds. With my mags empty I stripped them down, let the springs out from tension and cleaned all the dirt and grime from the inside. 

The next two ranges I shot all 300 rounds each without a single stoppage. I was always told we were not to take a mag apart; but it made a world of difference and I feel it is something that should be taught. To me it is as important to keep clean as my rifle.


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## Mr. St-Cyr (19 Apr 2015)

Quite right. The magazine is the Achilles heel of any magazine-fed semi auto.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Apr 2015)

Mr. St-Cyr said:
			
		

> Quite right. The magazine is the Achilles heel of any magazine-fed semi auto.



Especially if people try stretch the spring thinking it'll help. Soon as you do that, the spring is worthless.

Mags that remain loaded will not change the set of the spring. It'll be the same as the day it was made, even if you leave it loaded for a year. In other words, leaving them loaded will not affect the set of the spring.

Just take them apart and clean out the crud. Leave the spring alone.

95% of mag problems are because of the constant use, which affect the lips. See my above about overuse in drills, etc.


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## Colin Parkinson (20 Apr 2015)

or using the mag as a bottle opener...

Sadly much of the gun care was the blind leading the blind. In this day and age there is ton's of information on how the gun works and how and why the finish is the way it is. The manufacturers recommendations are also easy to find. We had an excuse back in our day, there is no excuse for an NCO not to know these days.


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## Bzzliteyr (20 Apr 2015)

I'll chime in and also discuss my CAFSAC experience of not cleaning weapons. Only tidied them up once and we repeatedly discussed the fact that units seems to have an obsession with how spotless weapons should be.

Who in the military hasn't returned a slightly dirty weapon to QM and had the "pinky test" cause you to be turned around? I mean, really? You got a little black on your finger? Do you think the weapon is "at risk" now? Sheesh!


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## MJP (20 Apr 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Especially if people try stretch the spring thinking it'll help. Soon as you do that, the spring is worthless.
> 
> Mags that remain loaded will not change the set of the spring. It'll be the same as the day it was made, even if you leave it loaded for a year. In other words, leaving them loaded will not affect the set of the spring.
> 
> Just take them apart and clean out the crud. Leave the spring alone.



The number of kittens that have been killed by people reaffirming that myth.


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## Mister Donut (21 Apr 2015)

I'm not sure if anyone else here shares the same opinion as me, but running a C7 through a BMQ o BMQ-L course should be criminal.  The mentality on course is get them clean no matter what the cost, or it's your @$$ at inspection...and the lengths people went to in order to get them presentable when I was on course (not that long ago) blew my fukking mind.

The bore on a C6 barrel had a bit of build up and a guy from another section kept on cleaning, and taking it to the staff and kept on being told not good enough....sure enough, out came the Gerber.  By the time he got the thumbs up, the original rifling was barely visible and was replaced by new and wonderful gouge patterns.....at least it was shiny.  Another stooge polished the Parkerizing right off a part, with Scotchbrite pads passed out from their section 2ic.  I guess every time you fail the pinky test, God kills a kitten?

I bought one of those Colt Canada SA20s a while ago, and I'm fairly confident that it will outlive me.  The cold hammer forged barrels on the SA20/C7A2 are milled from the same barrel blank as the C9s and are supposedly rated for a lifespan of 20,000 rounds.  

Yeah, these rifles have been around for a long time, but replace the right parts (barrels, BCGs, trigger groups) and these things should be able keep trucking for a very long time.  

Last year, I reached out to 500m for the first time ever, and to my astonishment, not only did all rounds land on paper, some of them even landed in the bull, and I'm a terrible shot with bad eyes and shaky hands.  Federal government rifle, federal government ammo, right off the rack.  I'm pretty sure there wouldn't have been a hope in hell of doing that with my Norinco CQA or M305 at the time.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Apr 2015)

Mister Donut said:
			
		

> Last year, I reached out to 500m for the first time ever, and it my astonishment, not only did all rounds land on paper, some of them even landed in the bull, and I'm a terrible shot with bad eyes and shaky hands.  Federal government rifle, federal government ammo, right off the rack.  I'm pretty sure there wouldn't have been a hope in hell of doing that with my Norinco CQA or M305 at the time.



We used to shoot 500mtr serials in competition all the time. That was also before we had Elcans, so it was done with iron sights.

Our service rifle is more than capable of doing it on a daily basis.


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## Mister Donut (21 Apr 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> We used to shoot 500mtr serials in competition all the time. That was also before we had Elcans, so it was done with iron sights.
> 
> Our service rifle is more than capable of doing it on a daily basis.



I have to admit, it was a pretty good feeling, to have my 500m cherry popped with this rifle.  Before that, the furthest I'd ever shot was 200m (max range of the public range), and even then, I had trouble.  The groupings with my Norc M14 were atrocious (the size of a pie plate), but I've been told that was mostly user error as the Norc M14 has been known to be pretty capable.

500m with iron sights is really impressive, at least to me.  There's no way I could hit the broad side of a barn at 500m with irons.  Even through the Elcan, the target sheet was a burry white dot for me.  I've since had laser eye surgery though, so maybe I'll be able to see better the next time I'm out.  Anyway, that competition really sold me on Colt Canada rifles and I just had to have one of my own.

I'm pretty sure with more magnification and sandbags (compensation for my poor marksmanship), I could probably produce a decent group with the C7 at 500m.


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## daftandbarmy (21 Apr 2015)

Mister Donut said:
			
		

> I have to admit, it was a pretty good feeling, to have my 500m cherry popped with this rifle.  Before that, the furthest I'd ever shot was 200m (max range of the public range), and even then, I had trouble.  The groupings with my Norc M14 were atrocious (the size of a pie plate), but I've been told that was mostly user error as the Norc M14 has been known to be pretty capable.
> 
> 500m with iron sights is really impressive, at least to me.  There's no way I could hit the broad side of a barn at 500m with irons.  Even through the Elcan, the target sheet was a burry white dot for me.  I've since had laser eye surgery though, so maybe I'll be able to see better the next time I'm out.  Anyway, that competition really sold me on Colt Canada rifles and I just had to have one of my own.
> 
> I'm pretty sure with more magnification and sandbags (compensation for my poor marksmanship), I could probably produce a decent group with the C7 at 500m.



I see you're in 39 Svc Bn. 

You may not know it but there have been a few national/ international level shooters produced by that unit over the years.

Maybe you should go for it?


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## OldSolduer (21 Apr 2015)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Most wear and tear on our guns, especially personal ones, is caused by constantly taking them apart and putting them back together.
> 
> Not from shooting them.



Concur. It was an issue with the FNC1A1 and any other weapon we have or had.


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## Kat Stevens (22 Apr 2015)

Run downs from 600m lugging a C2 and two full bras strapped on in Wainwright heat with a Jack Daniel's hangover... And we were thankful.


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## Mister Donut (22 Apr 2015)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I see you're in 39 Svc Bn.
> 
> You may not know it but there have been a few national/ international level shooters produced by that unit over the years.
> 
> Maybe you should go for it?



Ah yes, we have a legend from our unit and a few legends from our sister unit on the island.....I tried out last year and was eliminated at the Blair shoot.  I think placed 49th overall when they were looking for the top 20, so not even close.  I'll need a lot more practice and I could probably stand to lose a few pounds as well.  I learned a lot and had loads of fun though.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Apr 2015)

....and that's what it's all about. Having fun. 8)


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## Danjanou (22 Apr 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Run downs from 600m lugging a C2 and two full bras strapped on in Wainwright heat with a Jack Daniel's hangover... And we were thankful.



Two bras? Okay one for the mags I get, the other, well we really don't want to hear about your Jack Daniels inspired cross dressing fettish here.  8)


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## Kat Stevens (22 Apr 2015)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Two bras? Okay one for the mags I get, the other, well we really don't want to hear about your Jack Daniels inspired cross dressing fettish here.  8)



Someone thought it was "good training" to hump the extra weight up and down the range in 40 degree heat in prep for the Bde small arms competition.  The one in RV 81 was even worse, 40 degrees and 170% humidity. And don't tell me you don't have one of those cool Mo Litia superhero rifle, helmet, boots, and boxers pictures around somewhere.


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## dapaterson (22 Apr 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Someone thought it was "good training" to hump the extra weight up and down the range in 40 degree heat in prep for the Bde small arms competition.  The one in RV 81 was even worse, 40 degrees and 170% humidity. And don't tell me you don't have one of those cool Mo Litia superhero rifle, helmet, boots, and boxers pictures around somewhere.



There's at least one LCol who is afraid of photos I have of him as a 2Lt.  His hardnosed, hard-assed reputation might suffer if the pictures of him in the field with his teddy bear ever show up...


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## Robert0288 (22 Apr 2015)

Brihard said:
			
		

> "Make sure you use a cleaning rod to scrape the crown on the inside of the flash suppressor! I want to see that ring silver!"
> 
> I lose my effing mind.



What?  So your not supposed to get the flash suppressor off with a giant wrench and 4 people jumping on it to scrape out the carbon?   ???


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## Danjanou (22 Apr 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Someone thought it was "good training" to hump the extra weight up and down the range in 40 degree heat in prep for the Bde small arms competition.  The one in RV 81 was even worse, 40 degrees and 170% humidity. And don't tell me you don't have one of those cool Mo Litia superhero rifle, helmet, boots, and boxers pictures around somewhere.



More than one I'm sure. Probably even wearing a CT bra in it. 8)


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## VIChris (11 May 2015)

Mister Donut said:
			
		

> Ah yes, we have a legend from our unit and a few legends from our sister unit on the island.....I tried out last year and was eliminated at the Blair shoot.  I think placed 49th overall when they were looking for the top 20, so not even close.  I'll need a lot more practice and I could probably stand to lose a few pounds as well.  I learned a lot and had loads of fun though.



Keep at it, buds. My trip to Bisley last year was a life changer. Keep after Capt. Rogal for training, and we'll get you out to the big shoots, too.

On the note of C7A2s, with the exception of the Dutch C7 IUR thingy, at all the big shoots I've been to, most other nations look at our rifles with envy. It's a good weight, and when maintained to schedule, is accurate and reliable as a Swiss clock.


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