# When do small arms stop being small arms



## Scoobie Newbie (31 May 2007)

For example I know 25mm is small arms as is Karl G and a RPG.  So what is the criteria that makes something fit in the small arms category?


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## Munxcub (31 May 2007)

Man Portable?


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## George Wallace (31 May 2007)

Huh?

Anything 12.7 mm/.50 Cal or less is considered Small Arms.  

25 mm is considered a Cannon.

The Carl G is not a Small Arm.  An RPG is a Grenade Launcher, not a Small Arm.

Conky told me to tell you....... "IDIOT".


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## tank recce (31 May 2007)

Apparently the need for two-plus individuals to carry the round!  ;D

Talking out the south end of a northbound myself here, but I would have classed all of those as "heavy weapons". Anything that takes two guys and a supply of 24vdc to operate ain't a "small arm" by MY definition! A quick Google search turns up a number of listings, none of which cover (IMHO) the examples you listed. I'm dying to see the official CF definition, from those who know more than I...


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## Scoobie Newbie (31 May 2007)

Well the chopper was brought down by small arms fire, an RPG (yeah I know about not listening to the news).  I have heard the 25 referred to as small arms.  That's why I was hoping for the official party line.


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## HItorMiss (31 May 2007)

I think GW covered it best without the official Pam in his hands. I don't classify Carl G or RPG as small arms on my Anti-Armour Gunner course they were classified as Anti Armour weapons. I believe the Carl G is a SRAAW H or SRAAW M, though I can check in the book as it may now be the SRAAW L but I think was was used to deffine the M72.


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## RCR Grunt (31 May 2007)

HoM

I think M72 is SRAAW L, Carl G is SRAAW M and ERYX was SRAAW H.

I think, don't quote me.


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## medaid (31 May 2007)

That's correct! I will quote you  

No all seriousness.

M72 = SRAAW L
Carl G = SRAAW M
Eryx = SRAAW H


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## KevinB (31 May 2007)

Greater than .50 is generally no longer considered a small arm.

However they added M203 and CarlG etc. to SAIC -- so  :


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## HItorMiss (31 May 2007)

Yeah I checked my old AAP books, Grunt and MedTech are right. So by those classifications that removes them from small arms and makes them Anti Armour weapons.


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## Colin Parkinson (31 May 2007)

There is a 25mm MG about the size of Browning M2 offered, them there are the automatic grenade launchers, it does get blurry nowdays!


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## McG (31 May 2007)

RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> I think M72 is SRAAW L, Carl G is SRAAW M and ERYX was SRAAW H.





			
				MedTech said:
			
		

> M72 = SRAWW L
> Carl G = SRAWW M
> Eryx = SRAWW H


SRAAW =short range anti-armour Weapon


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## HItorMiss (31 May 2007)

MCG said:
			
		

> SRAAW =short range anti-armour Weapon



Yup never mind


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## McG (31 May 2007)

Check my qoutes.  Somebody missed it.


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## medaid (31 May 2007)

Me, my bad  poorer spelling me's have!


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## Colin Parkinson (31 May 2007)

Here is the 25mm

http://www.defense-update.com/products/x/xm307.htm


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## KevinB (31 May 2007)

T'is not the size of the weapon but that of the bore.

My comment on the SAIC -- was just that it was becoming the Advanced Infantry Weapons Instructors course -- in everything but name.


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## McG (31 May 2007)

"In 1988 NATO agreed that Small Arms were to be defined as portable direct fire individual or crew-served weapons used primarily for anti-personnel operations"  This included pistols, revolvers, rifles, and machineguns (SMG, LMG, MMG, and HMG).

Ref.  Handbook of Light Weapons. RMCS Shrivenham, UK.  1994.


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## Michael OLeary (31 May 2007)

> When do small arms stop being small arms?



When Chuck Norris uses them.     ;D


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## Trooper Hale (1 Jun 2007)

And there we have it! Michael O'Leary strikes again with what is now my defination of "Small Arms".
AWESOME!


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## mudgunner49 (1 Jun 2007)

When you hit the gym enough...



blake


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## Benny (4 Jun 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> When Chuck Norris uses them.     ;D


Dammit! Beat me to it!!!


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## Greymatters (4 Jun 2007)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Here is the 25mm
> http://www.defense-update.com/products/x/xm307.htm



Our definitions of armour and bore-size have changed quite a bit over the years.  Like when LAWS used to be considered good for anti-armour firepower, then got redefined as only useful against soft-skin or reinforced walls.  Maybe we're reaching that point where 25mm is going to slip into the 'small arms' definition.


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## George Wallace (4 Jun 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> .......  Maybe we're reaching that point where 25mm is going to slip into the 'small arms' definition.




OK.  You make the call.  Can you carry a 25 mm M245 Cannon all by yourself and fire it?


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## George Wallace (4 Jun 2007)

......or even this XM307 (EXperimental) ?


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## Greymatters (5 Jun 2007)

"The XM307 weighs about *92 lbs * including the gun, two ammunition cans of 37 rounds each, fire control and tripod. Maximum rate of fire is 250 rounds per minute. However, the weapons accuracy enables gunners to achieve the desired effect with fewer rounds. The *XM312 version will weigh about 43.7 lbs, [/b] (compared to the current 128 lbs of the M2HB). "

I wouldnt! (But Im sure there's some guys here who would say 'no problem' to 92 pounds.)  
Now, the XM312 is more like it.  Get into that range and you are definately talking more portability. 

For comparison, compare the AGS-17, its heavy, its 40mm, but is often classified with 'small arms' due to its 'portability' despite weighing 30 kg (over 60 pounds), or its even lighter version the AG-17.

Consider that the same weapon made 30 years ago would have been even heavier.  In another 10 years technology will cause this weapon weight to be reduced even further. *


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