# Changes, needed fixes in Cadets (merged)



## Franko

Alright, Ive been doing a lot of talking, answering questions and the like. So I‘m asking the big question"What has to be fixed in the cadet movement?" I want to hear your thoughts on what you‘d like to see in cadets. What needs to change, what should be left alone etc...

If YOU had the power....what would you do?

Regards


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## patt

i would change everything... mostly id get the trouble makers out without any warnings.


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## chalk1

uh, how about no. ever hear " theres no such thing as bad followers, only bad leaders"? you cant simply get rid of so-called "trouble makers" and make it all better. its the leaky faucet scenario, people. btw, excellent question, franko.its a great deal of things, my friend. most would easily blame it on the CIC oficers without "real" military experience, but it just doesnt end there. one thing i could propose to start would be to have at least 1 current or ret‘d sr NCO as an advisor per corps, but seeing as there are a few geographical concerns with that one,as well as the HR probs with the CF. all that can be done is what is currently in place; to have an advisor for every area. we could, however, raise the standards for the middle and senior cadet NCO‘s...every one here prob has something to say about an encounter with a cadet who doesnt understand that as a C/Sgt, he is no higher than a PRes or Reg Cpl. i find the main problem, really, is that there is no way to truly enforce standards at the LHQ level.


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## Franko

Patti...could you elaborate a little. You sounded a bit vague.

Regards


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## MikeM

Bringing back fieldcraft would be a good start.

More military experience should be required to be a CIC officer aswell, theres too many "boy scout" type junior officers I find.

Don‘t let cadets abuse the CHAP program either. There are too many cadets trying to get out of doing simple tasks using CHAP as an excuse.


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## chalk1

Yes, we all want that kind of time in the field, but that would be much more apparent if the leadership was better. I hate to say it, but my major deal with cadets is the poor leadership. (this isn‘t to imply i‘m having trouble with my own CO...he‘s ex Reg sr NCO - engineer). there is a debate on that whole topic, of wether or not cadets should go back to the whole combat trg and everything. it would be a good idea; it would open up a whole new area for cadets to explore new leadership aspects. but i hate to sound like a broken record, its all about the leadership. we cant give a C7 with blanks to a 12-14 year old kid who has officers or snr cadets with little or no military experience.


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## onecat

I think maybe the cadets the should actually listen to the leadership.  If your 12 or 17 for that the important thing is be there to learn, so if your CO, CIC or a cadet of higher rank tells you this or that... you do it.

McBear I think the leadership should military expereince as well, but way teens treat there leadership as just as much to do with a bad experience.  You need to go in with respect.. it doesn‘t matter if hate your section leader at school, at cadets he‘s the boss.  And troublemakers should be booted out.  I know when I was 17 and in cadet I was a trouble maker.. joked around, it made a difference.


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## mattoigta

getting rid of it‘s "Adventure-oriented training" and bring it back to ARMY cadets. When I was in cadets I was disgusted by how terrible it became, things like CHAP and "Adventure" training, apparently officers aren‘t even allowed to say the word "enemy".

I think cadets had a good 125 year run, and I think it‘s neccessary to disband it.


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## chalk1

I agree, radio, but i stick to the idea that the leader should be able to handle the situation if a cdt lacks respect. i also know about the whole professionalsim thing, too. but you can‘t always guarantee that a 12 year old kid is going to come into the unknown with tons of respect for his elders (especially in today‘s society), we have to be patient and able to teach it as well. Just getting rid of a kid because he‘s a bit of a hassle is no exscuse; there may be an underlying home situation of abuse affecting how he/she acts at the corps/squadron. i see kicking the kid out as a way of quitting on a large amount of potential. i do agree, however, to expel the cadet in extreme situations.

as for disbanding the RCAC? please. come up with a better argument than simply being personally uninterested in the program. i know quite a few disadvantaged kids who live for this, and they become confident and amazingly socially adept while developing the skills of a leader. they also grow up to become some fine soldiers. im very sure that they would disagree.


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## Gunner

> every one here prob has something to say about an encounter with a cadet who doesnt understand that as a C/Sgt, he is no higher than a PRes or Reg Cpl.


McBear, actually a cadet of whatever rank does not equate to any rank within the CF. In other words, a cadet RSM is lower than a Reserve Pte.


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## chalk1

Oops. sorry. that‘s exactly what i was trying to say.


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## chalk1

Again, sorry mate. I was just trying to use it as an example of some cadets who get a little power-happy.


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## Jason Jarvis

Okay, Franko, I‘ll bite. I might regret it, but here goes.

I was an air cadet for four years, left as a WO2. Bad eyes made me realize I would never fly, so I decided to go as "green" as a pigeon could (uniforms at the time notwithstanding), focusing on shooting and survival training. I had a great time, too; I attended a few national shooting championships, spent a summer in the wilds north of Chicoutimi and another great summer on staff. I never thought I missed anything.

That was over ten years ago, and now I‘m back, helping to start a shooting program at an inner-city corps that‘s lucky to parade 18 on a good night -- while the air cadets in the same building parade at least twice as many. This tells me something‘s not right.

Air cadets get to fly, sea cadets go to sea, but what do army cadets do? Hmm, let‘s see. Oh yeah, adventure training. But wait, don‘t Scouts do that? Yeah, I thought so. There‘s no freaking "army" in army cadets anymore! We were looking through old photo albums the other night, and there are some great pictures from the late 70s showing cadets demonstrating section and platoon attacks with BFA-equipped C1A1s and Bren guns. Holy crap! The universal reaction from the half-dozen or so cadets looking over my shoulder was that they wished they could do that. But why not?

Yes, a lack of "real" military experience among CIC officers can be attributed to this decline, although I also think that‘s a cop-out on the behalf of those too close-minded to see the benefits of a non-military approach to things. That said, I find it hard to believe that a basic primer on small unit tactics couldn‘t be worked into the JOLC(L) or just added as an additional course, like RSO or Abseil Instructor. The rot at NDHQ could also be blamed, as well as a lack of vision or courage of conviction, especially throughout the late 80s and early 90s. Money is always an issue, especially for army cadets and securing qualified instructors for field exercises involving "army" training -- many units simply can‘t afford a weekend‘s pay for a Cpl or Sgt to train cadets. And then of course there‘s always the argument about teaching kids how to kill, something my wife trots out every now and again, ie, "You‘re actually going to teach inner-city kids how to shoot straight? Do the police know you‘re doing this?" BTW, she only says that to jerk my chain -- as a teacher she understands and appreciates the benefits of focus and discipline that shooting instills in young adults -- but your average soccer mommy might not be so easily persuaded.

I‘ve spent a lot time since I came back talking to cadets and trying to find out why they joined, and they all say because they want to know "what the army‘s like." Other than shooting, I don‘t see much offered by the current army cadet program that gives them a taste of the "real army". Kids join air cadets because they want to learn to be a pilot, and they join sea cadets because they like boats (and which I never understood, quite frankly    ), but it bugs me that army cadets don‘t learn about what it‘s like to be a soldier. This varies from unit to unit of course, but I find the overall program very weak.

One of the aims of cadets is to encourage interest in the CF, and I don‘t feel that army cadets is doing that right now.

And don‘t get me started about abuse of CHAP, poor discipline and lack of respect for uniforms!


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## Cadet810

Put a little more "Army " in ARMY cadets.


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## elscotto937

As with every military crse, leadership is answer. First lets tackle the CIC, every corp should have a combination of retire or former Regular force pers (not PRes), those whose expirence is limited to the CIC training with civilian exprience (not the drunk from the corner, professionals such as teachers), and finally supported my a strong group of parents...
The most destructive thing for the cadet movement is to have thier Cadets graduate and become CIC officers in a corps. Here is why I say leadership, because when the cadets come into the program, they only know what they are told. How many times have you heard a leader (Officer) say "yeah I would like to do that, like we used to be able to do when I was a cadet, but now the rules say we are not supposed to do it"... This is poor leadership, that statement may be true, but the kids don‘t need to know it was so much better... Listen, the cadet program has limitations, I think we can all agree with that, but it is still an excellent organization. Leaders in the Cadet movement must use thier initiative to find interesting things that Cadets can do within the scope of the program. Franko, was telling me numerous things that he was able to do for his cadets, all sounded interesting and challenging and all were within the "rules".  Myself I once encountered a cadet corps in a very small town, usually these cadet corps are holding on by the skin of thier teeth, but this one was thriving. They has no support from thier affliated unit, they did not have any people with regular military time, but they conducted numerous exercises and activities, and had a strength of about 40 (and by a quick count from me that was about one from every house, small exaggeration). It was amazing, and it was due to leadership...
I have a few other points on the CIC and PRes influence, but most of you stopped reading 20 lines ago...


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## Franko

Care to explain yourself Cadet810? Your statement was very broad...try to narrow it down. 

Yes I agree that CHAP is being abused. I just square up to the allegations, conduct a descret investigation. If allegations are false...disciplined or discharge.

As for the CIC not being trained to a higher standard...what do you expect from them? What training should they recieve prior to being given a command? Remember...they are a representation of our society as a whole..as are cadets themselves. There are bound to be a few bad apples in the barrel. They are weeded out rather quickly by ACOs and the reg/res volenteers. As for leadership in the ranks of the CIC...I agree that it should be made more apparent that if they abuse the privilidge of their commision and not be the best leader they can be...fire them. There is no need in this organization for an officer to do the old addage"Do as I say, not as I do". I‘ve seen a few in my time...one rather recently in Ottawa. I am currently trying to get the person fired through an investigation that was started over a year ago. The evedence is ****ing.

Good points all....keep them coming!

If you want better programs in the cadets...what would you like to see? 

Regards


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## CSS Type

Scot937

Some good comments, by would would you say   





> As with every military crse, leadership is answer. First lets tackle the CIC, every corp should have a combination of retire or former Regular force pers (not PRes)


?

You don‘t think they have any experience that could be utilized?


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## Cadet810

The big error being with CIC‘s is their training.


Regarding Put" ARMY into Army cadets". The Army Cadet league is not strong enough to cope with meeting the demands (financially) of doing extra 
project for Army cadets.. If you look at the Air Cadet League of Canada ,they are the ones that make us fly.There is nothing in Army cadets that defines Army cadets (except Para) from the Sea and Air Cadets.

My thoughts


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## Franko

Cadet810...so firing C-7s, reppeling, assault boat courses, Wilderness and Outward Bound, Arctic Indoc etc...etc...don‘t count for anything?

Don‘t see too many Air or Sea cadets doing that.

As for CIC‘s and their training...how so? Remember they are your superiors, if their training isn‘t up to par, what should be done about it?

Regards


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## elscotto937

CSS Type, no I do see value in having the PRes members of what I will call the "Cadet Leadership Team" but not for thier military experience. They offer support in what refer to as the professional group. Generally, (I do hate using that word) the former regular force personnel are free from personnel "military" ambition, where as the one would question why a reserve member was devoting thier time to a cadet unit and not to thier own unit. PRes pers who are senior and have some military experience and want a chance to work with cadets fall into the professional column, as thier life/professional experience outweighs thier reserve army expirience... Hope that clears up my opinion


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## Caz

Carter, what do you know about CIC training?

As an officer in the CIC branch, I would love to see us brought to a higher, more ‘military‘ standard. But we have facts to face.

The CIC isn‘t glamourous.  We‘re entitled to 23 paid days a year, and most of us do 10 days a month of time.  In my case, I‘m on the Regional Holding Establishment, so I don‘t even get paid.

Mind you, if I was in this for the money, I would have picked a different career.

So let‘s face facts.  On my BOQ, we had OCdts and NCdts that were ex-cadets, teachers, parents.  If we were to do things, like say all CIC need a university degree, we would shut down half of all the rural squadrons and corps, and that is where we are needed the most.  When you have a manpower shortage, it‘s hard to get the cream off the top all the time.

The average life of the CIC officer is 4.7 years.  Many very talented officers find new careers and direction with the RegF or PRes.  Others stay with the CIC, and other simply leave for whatever reason (I know it will be tough for me when I‘m in law school to be at a unit).

As for CHAP...  it hasn‘t changed a thing.  If it was wrong to do something now that CHAP is here, it was wrong to do it before, as well.  Now people are just aware of their rights and responsiblities.  Furthermore, CHAP has been with us since 1999.  Get over it.  It‘s not going anywhere.

I will agree that there is a distinct lack of Army in Army Cadets.  The folks at DCdts struggle with a huge image problem when promoting the second largest, and most senior, cadet element.  The ‘teenage soilder‘ view doesn‘t cut it when trying to get our $180M a year from the budget to run the programs.  I think maybe the pendulum of reason has swung a little far in the wrong direction of late, though.  We were talking about this in the Para thread - Air and Sea Cadets have some neat skill-based opportunities to compete for - what _do_ Army Cadets get these days?

Look at it this way.  Cadets is the fully-funded (for all mandatory training) government youth program.  It‘s a godsend to a good part of the population - the only way some people could send thier kids to camp, or the only way some of these kids can learn to funcntion on their own.  It has to be accessible to everyone.  Section 46 of the National Defence Act allows for a partnership between civilian leagues and the DND to support the program.  Although cadets has a military flavor, it‘s not the military.

How do we fix it?  I don‘t know - is it really broken?  I would love to see some fellow officers remember what they are taught on BOQ in their Duties and Responsiblities classes, and instill that at the LHQ.  We‘ll see how our training evolves over the next 18 months as our new courses come in that make us a little more specialized to work in our MOCs.

We‘ll see how the cadet programs evolve as they are re-written by 2008.

Long story short...  you have a rural unit where the officers and cadets may not be very military like.  However, that cadet has the chance to attend a senior leadership course, or surivival, or something that perks their interest, and helps better themselves as a person, and a member of society.  That right there, that‘s what the programs big goals are all about.


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## chalk1

Well put, Caz.


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## Jason Jarvis

I agree that leadership is a problem. Many officers are in the latter half of their careers and their energy levels wind down the closer they get to retirement. And some are simply "punching their ticket."

But I know an officer who‘s in his mid-30s and is very dedicated to cadets and providing a well-rounded training experience. But he doesn‘t want to have anything to do with the "army" side of army cadets -- things like fieldcraft, patrolling or even shooting -- unless they can be used for the things he enjoys, like canoeing, mountain biking, rapelling, summer expeditions, biathlon, etc. Does this make him a bad leader? Is he putting his own interests ahead of the cadets, or is he using his "initiative to find interesting things that Cadets can do within the scope of the program?"



> *Scott937 wrote:*
> The most destructive thing for the cadet movement is to have their cadets graduate and become CIC officers in a corps. Here is why I say leadership, because when the cadets come into the program, they only know what they are told.


I don‘t totally agree with you here, Scott, as I do believe it‘s important for senior cadets to move into the CIC, and that the CF should actively recruit the very best among RSMs, SWOs and CPOs. But I don‘t think they should join their former unit -- they should be posted to either a different unit or even element where possible, to learn from a new set of mentors and leaders and for general life experience (to combat the "only know what they‘re told" syndrome). I think it‘s too easy for existing officers to continue to treat a new OCdt as their former cadet rank, with the end result that the rookie will get bored, frustrated and leave -- and then no one wins.



> *Scott937 wrote:*
> I do see value in having the PRes members of what I will call the "Cadet Leadership Team" but not for their military experience. They offer support in what refer to as the professional group. Generally (I do hate using that word), the former regular force personnel are free from personal "military" ambition, where as the one would question why a reserve member was devoting their time to a cadet unit and not to their own unit.


I‘m in total agreement with this statement. Former members of the CF with no personal ambitions can exert a huge influence on the morale and training of a unit. But people being people, they‘re few and far in between. I count myself very lucky for the chance to work with a retired air force WO2 one summer -- he was everything the CIC officers on staff were not: dynamic, decisive, energetic, inspiring and most importantly, a good role model. That course would‘ve been a joke if he hadn‘t been there.

This is great stuff. Thanks for starting the topic, Franko.

And thanks again, Caz, for nailing the problem. I was hoping you‘d weigh in on this thread.


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## chalk1

Good point. Ive learned, and have been influenced, much much more by ex- or currenly serving pers than by CIC. I know Franko can agree on this one. When Peter VanIderstine was RSm of Argonaut (96-2001, methinks), he was so highly respected by everyone there. His influence on the camp was immense, and the place hasnt been the same since...many would say it‘s worse.


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## Caz

I‘ve worked with some great RegF and PRes Chiefs in my short time...  CWO Woodcock, CWO Lemon...  inspiring gentleman.

Jason, I agree - ex-cadets should not go back to their unit right away.  And COs need to exercise way more discretion when sponsoring ex-cadets into the CIC as soon as they age out.  Some can handle it, but we‘ve all run into the OCdt that thinks they are still a WO2, and they are trying to be a flight commander at a summer training centre.

When I aged-out, I was gung-ho to go CIC right away.  I went to a different unit, and out of my own choice, spent three years as a CI.  Did I need that long away?  Probably not.  But is was very beneficial on my outlook, my leadership style, and how I task my senior cadets.

Everyone needs a break  - if you spend five or seven years as a cadet, then go hard into the CIC, you‘ll burn out - and fast.  It costs us too much in finacial and human resources to have this happen.  Most people need to step back for at least a year and get some outside perspective before making that kind of commitment to our youth.  A different unit, where possible, is a must; even a different element can help bring everything full circle.

Anyway... you want to make changes to how the cadet program operates?  Do your research, and give constructive crticism on it.  Chances are that when you research the decisions that DCdts and NDHQ and the Leagues make about the cadet programs, you‘ll at least be able to see the reason in their process - even if you don‘t agree with it.

-R.


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## chalk1

Caz, what would you say are the major leadership problems affecting the CIC? You mentioned Ocdts trying to do their former jobs, which i agree with because of my own encounters with them. What could be changed in the training of the CIC to better their leadership? And is starting from the top the best way?


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## Caz

I‘m glad you asked.

No, starting from the top isn‘t always the best way, but when you are trying to create a culture, it flows from the top.

Let‘s start here.  Yes, the CIC run a youth program.  That is our MOC.  However, too many officers see their cap badge as a flag of convenience.  If they don‘t view themselves as military, they won‘t act military, and although it is a youth program we run, we are Officers in the CF - we need to act as such, and be treated as such.  Such simple things... how many officers at the LHQ are in violation of dress regs on a weekly basis?  How many really know the heritage of their branch and element?  If we being to train and feel like leaders, we will start to act like leaders.

Communication is always a problem.  Part of this is because sometimes we don‘t get the right information.  Other times, it is because we‘ve been trained to ask for it, but don‘t.  Simple example:  At one unit, every month, the Adm O has to track down the staff and get them to sign their pay docs.  They shouldn‘t have to do that.  The officers should know this, and are taught it on thier first mandatory course.

When I was on BOQ, I was impressed with the training.  We were told repeatedly that we are military officers, no different than any other, with a special job.  It doesn‘t mean that we don‘t act like military officers.  It means that we have a wide variety of interactions to make with youth, parents, guardians, and the community.  It was instilled in us that for many communities in Canada, the CIC is the only representation of the CF.  Average joe doesn‘t see CIC vs an Armoured Officer; they just see a member of the CF and shiny gold braid.

Too many officers don‘t bring this back.

Our training is changing to - eventually - bring us within 75% leadership and IT capability as a PRes officer.  Instead of focusing courses on rank progression, the writing boards are developing courses that focus on skill-set.  Instead of having to take LTQ to get promoted to Lt, you‘re going to have to take Trg O, Adm O, and Instructor courses.

The scope of control at a unit is hard.  The Unit COs are largely left on their own for a lot of decisions, and hesitate to contact their ACOs.  The units all have a volunteer staff, and it is easier to tire out the officers than the cadets.

When new officers enrol, we need to make sure they understand the committment they are giving of thier time.  You will have to go on course.  You will have to work more than two days and a weekend a month.  Your life will get interrupted - deal with it.  You‘re an officer in the CF.

Essentially, we need a little esprit de corps.

-R.


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## Franko

Good points Rob.

If the COs are reluctant to enforce the rules and regs what should happen to them?

If the COs don‘t ask questions to the ACO and the corps starts to feel the impact as a whole, what should happen to him/her?

I do agree that the Esprit de corps is waining currently, have you see the"Fake Commission" write up thats being passed around lately?

If not I‘ll try to get it and post it here for ALL to see. It‘s really a bunch of whining crap made up by someone who isn‘t very secure in the role they play in the CF.

Regards


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## Caz

Unit COs need to be held more accountable.  The thing is, no one in a unit is going to phone the ACO and say "Capt Bloggins doesn‘t wear his 3Bs properly!".  If your staff isn‘t cohesive, your unit will fall apart.

I think Unit COs should need to be in closer contact with their advisors, Det commanders, and the RCO.  If they don‘t do their jobs, they should face consequence.  That goes for every officer of a unit that doesn‘t do thier job as perscribed by lawful authority, and common sense.

Sadly, that‘s also a way to get rid of a lot of mostly decent people that don‘t understand their role in the CF.

It‘s not just COs, though - other officers in the unit, by virtue of being officers, should be reponsible enough to research regulations.  Too many people forget to look at the possible consequences if you don‘t do the job right - of course, the other side is the people who only focus on the possible consequences of any action, and thus become paranoid about doing anything (we can‘t go on field exercise!  Someone might get hurt!)   

Sometimes, I think every cadet unit should have a copy of CFOO 1.0.1 so we can see where we are supposed to fit in.

I have seen that "my commission is real" email that has gone around.  Gets a lot of CIC feeling proud, but I agree - it has the tone of someone who hides behind a scroll, as opposed to taking responsibility for their job.

What we need to do is adjust the culture, so the officers at the unit do their research, and COs keep tabs without micromanaging, and ultilize their advisors and chain of command to the RCO.  The schools are doing a good job, I think (at least the one in my region is), but the 2Lt that comes back from JOLC isn‘t the one that can totally instill the culture at the LHQ.  The people in command at that level need to share the same vision.

It‘s something that should probably be in every Commanding Officers Conference.

I don‘t claim to have all the answers.  I‘m still very wet behind the ears.  However, I do know that it‘s amazing how much can be accomplished when people stop being afraid of asking questions, and actually communicate.

-R.


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## True Canadian

I think the Cadet Program should just scrap CHAP all together. Back in the day (at camp) when Cadets wouldn‘t shut up in ranks, or never made their bunk, they got a nice welt from the drill cane on their leg. That‘s the way it should be, if not abused that would work out good if you ask me, that way everyone would be serious when needed.

Also, the whole military part of Army Cadets has almost completely faded. It‘s going right down the toilet if you ask me. This whole; Adventure Orienteering thing is total BS, they think were having fun!?!? I have fun when we do night ops, or PT that actually physically challenges everyone. At my corps all with they exception of 2 of our senior NCO‘s are overweight useless tub of lards, that don‘t have enough stamina and energy to keep up with the GREEN STARS!!!! 

I‘m sick of the poor leadership; but that‘s only one thing. The ARMY part of Army Cadets is deminishing, and it‘s all because of the parents! They just whine and complain about what‘s right for their kids, yet there bringing the correlation between Boy Scouts and Army Cadets closer and closer, and making it a lamer experience for their kid, WTF do they know anyway! They think there kid dosen‘t want to go fire off full-auto military gun and carry awesome Army equipment? Morons!

We need to keep Fieldcraft into Cadets, it‘s only taught in Green Star, and that‘s only very, very basic and primitive style of Fieldcraft, which isin‘t even that good. Another thing I have a problem with, is Canoeing, or however you spell it. WTF‘s up with that? Who the **** canoes in the military, now I‘m all for white water rafting, cuz that‘s awesome, it‘s just canooing???!!?!?! Come on!!

I remember my Officer at Vernon this summer was saying how back in like 92‘ when he was a cadet, they called it Junior Soldier, because that‘s practically what it was, and on ex‘s he‘d carry around a C9 (he was a big guy, like 6,4 280Ibs) and there were howitzers firing off artillery shells, and his section had to get to a certain position, and all there weapons were loaded with blanks. *drools*

That‘s the way Cadets should be.


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## dano

I would like to note some posts made so far that are of possible significance. (In my view) 

Jason, excellent analysis of the League. I must say. Great points. Such a formal voice in the Civilian population is capital to help gear or change the "culture" of the Army Cadet league.

Caz, Generally speaking as I can be... We need CIC‘s as well for that matter persons involved in ADMIN to have the attitude as well as stead fast dedication that you have. Though I would disagree with myself on that, I can‘t help but feel we lack those figures in majority.

Okay! Now my input in to the subject matter.

Instead on giving what I think must be fixed (Many of which have already been addressed) I will give my input on what I have done to keep members interested as well as get the public interested.

In past posts I think I have introduced this, all should know anyway. 
I have tried organizing optional activities where the corps can broaden their field leadership skills and abilities. 

Where we would do this? Well the huge park right by the armories, where we have done them before. 

But for some reason they we‘re cancelled. We nick named them Sunday EXs.

I have the plans set and ready... Its just when I send it up the chain of command, no one seems to "receive" it.
Nonetheless, that is one plan I have to directly effect the attitude and spirit for army cadets.


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## elscotto937

True Canadian, there is a whole lot of "wrong" in your comments. But I‘m going to assume that you were trying to spark debate, so I will do my best not to talk down to you.
Phyically, hitting a cadet with a drill cane, how would that ever work, the organization would devolve in to a group of thugs. Senior cadets have no legal authority over other cadets, in the strictest sense it is authority by consent. A good leader should not often have to raise his voice, let alone strike a subodinate. Ask yourself if you really know any cadets who would have enough self-control to be able to effectively deal out the punishment you are suggesting.
The other point I will cover is the Junior Soldiers comment....Cadets are a youth organization, not soldiers. Nor should they be.  Any one who put a C9 or C7 into the hands of a cadet off the ranges, with blanks loaded.. should have his head on a pike. However, kids should be going to the field with thier affiliated unit, and conducting some of the activities. Like I said earlier there are things that can be done within the rules.


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## Franko

On the topic of striking a subordinate...if you do that you have lost ALL control of yourself AND your troops. You should be immediatly discharged after being found guilty. There is only one way I would ever strike a subordinate..if he struck me first.

True Canadian....Your officer at Vernon, was he on any prescription drugs when he made the statement"was saying how back in like 92‘ when he was a cadet, they called it Junior Soldier, because that‘s practically what it was, and on ex‘s he‘d carry around a C9 and there were howitzers firing off artillery shells, and his section had to get to a certain position, and all there weapons were loaded with blanks."   

He is full of S H I T. There is no provision for cadets at camp to be issued a fully automatic weapon, never mind blanks. They stopped letting cadets do that grate stuff in ‘86-87. He is a liar, straight out. If the camp commander authorised this to be done he should be court marshalled and hung. As for being on a range with howitzer rounds flying over head, never in a zillion years. In the regs we have so many safety regs in place that we aren‘t allowed in a template when the guns are being fired unless it‘s a danger close exercise or level 5-7 live fire exercise. Even then, we‘re button up in the callsigns(tanks, Coyotes, LAVs, M113s)

Hate to burst your bubble, but he is WAY too young to have experienced what I did in the early to mid ‘80s.

There are some things that an affiliated unit can do now that are well within the guide lines. For instance, we had the top recruiter for our corps come out to the ranges and fire a Leopard, keep the caseing, and drive it as well. Everything was legit, clearances done, insurance papers, ACOs approval, safety lectures, instructions by range staff etc.

As for your officer from Vernon....Not a very good leader if you ask me.


Regards


----------



## chalk1

Nosuch thing as bad troops, just bad leaders.....


----------



## y2kroachman

problem with cadets that ive seen, is no matter how good you are, it is always someone thats friends with the warrant officer or sergeants that gets promoted, he could be the biggest dumbass ever and he would be giving you orders, what a croc of ****.


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## Franko

In every instance of my working with cadets, when it comes to promotion time the ONLY pers there are the staff, the affiliated unit reps,and the RSM. If someone wants to push someone up the chain they must press their case, reasons, examples and the like for the individual to get promoted. It‘s just like we do in the regs with merit boards, just on a smaller scale.

No WO or SGT has ever influenced my descision on promotion of a cadet, EVER! I go off records, assessments, hard assesments, and observations made by myself. If the cadet is a hard worker, on time and has their dress and deportment sorted out and has good bearing and demeanor..They are on my list. If they show promise in their abilities to lead..I push harder.

I know it doesn‘t work like this in every corps, but seeing how many officers are here on this forum, maybe a few ideas or suggestions here may find it‘s way into your corps. 

You never know

Regards


----------



## primer

Franco: I do the same as you for promotions..We have 3 a year and their are certain criterias that must be met first.


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## Franko

Primer...good to hear. Glad to see there is some common sense in your corps! What corps is it? Where is it based out of?

Regards


----------



## True Canadian

You guys sound like a bunch of soccer-moms. If you don‘t want they army, don‘t join ARMY Cadets.


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## elscotto937

True Canadian, who exactly sounds like a soccer mom. Because I certainly don‘t think Primer and Franko discussing a fair system of advancement in thier cadet corps, would equate to "soccer moms"


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## Franko

True Canadian...do your parents know that you contribute absolute rubbish to this fine forum?

A quote..."If you don‘t want they army, don‘t join ARMY Cadets"

They army?     

Pay attention in class and learn how to spell BEFORE you write.

So your a Cdt Mcpl who wants to pipe up on this subject in this forum. Here is something to think about BEFORE you do.

1.  Know the subject
2.  Have more knowledge than the people you are trying to take on, of which you do not.
3.  If you have a point, MAKE it clear, and to the point.
4.  If your not sure about the topic, make your point of view known with an open mind for comments by others(and there WILL be comments)

Finally...I‘ve been in the forces longer than you‘ve been alive. 

Don‘t mess with somone you don‘t know

As for soccer moms...how‘s yours?     

‘Nuff said Mcpl...you‘re DISMISSED!

Regards

   :evil: 

edited for wrong info


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## Franko

So back to the topic at hand it would seem


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## Harris

Thanx for the good comments Franko.  Unfortunately I have to point out that you are incorrect about the Cap Badge used in True Canadian‘s profile.  It is not from an Ottawa Unit.  I was a member of the Cameron Highlander‘s of Ottawa and I can assure you that we did not wear the cap badge of the Queens Own Cameron Highlander‘s of Canada capbadge.    Otherwise good points.


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## Franko

By gosh your right Harris...there all gone. I didn‘t let it finish loading the picture before I closed it.

My bad   

Regards


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## Caz

Right... good way to shape youth into model citizens... show them that violence is the best way to correct them    

We‘ve had the CHAP discussion before.  It‘s not a verb.  It‘s a program.

Anything that is wrong now that CHAP is here (and it‘s been five years - get over it!), was wrong before.

The difference is now that people know their rights, and have a cemented reporting process.

Anyway...

Dano, thanks for the kind words.  Yes, what you pointed out about your Sunday Ex‘s is a problem in many units - a large interruption in the flow of communication between the NCOs and the CO, who approves/disapproves your optional training.

Sometimes it‘s easy to forget we‘re here for the cadets. Don‘t give up on your efforts, Dano - they will serve you well.


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## chalk1

So, what can be done then about promotions if we have too many being handed out? Its obvious we cant rely on CIC officers (not all, just those to which this applies...sorry cas) to enforce standards. Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt a cadet have to have his/her NSCE before being promoted to WO? How many of you have seen a chief with gold star? I know i have...    At my corps, this is how things go down. Green stars dont get promoted until at least a year and a half in. They do receive other incentives for which they earn, such as the regimental cap brass, but only after passing green star training, and more specifically their drill test. This is sort of a tradition as well. Teamwork is always emphasized throughtout the cadet‘s career, but leadership training starts in red star. On year-end FTX‘s, red stars are given small taskings for which they are evaluated. This is the beginning of their leadership trg. As for promotions, the CO, TrgO and i get together along with my senior NCO‘s who are NSCE qualified to discuss promotions. Promotion above WO is only given to those with NSCE. Do any of you do it different? If so, id really appreciate input...I dont mean to discriminate, but i wont accept it from soccer moms.


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## MikeM

You need your NSCE to be promoted above WO (MWO, CWO). I have too seen a CWO with gold star, however, but not lately, I haven‘t seen with a CWO with only their gold star in about 2 years. 

As for the way your corps promotes, it is somewhat similar to mine. We have about 150 cadets, broken into 4 different troops. All new recruits that we receive are placed in the recruit troop (We call them troops since we‘re armoured). After 6-8 weeks of fundamental training, they are then placed into one of the other 3 troops and placed into the green star program. A cadet generally receives their green star after a years worth of training (since a year is how long it should take to complete a star level), followed by a promotion to trooper sometime after.

Red stars are grouped together on garrison FTXs (we have 4 affiliated corps), and they all break off into their own sections and complete pratical portions of their red star programme on FTX, such as map and compass and leadership taskings). Back at the LHQ Red stars complete their training as per the training plan, and are usually promoted to corporal upon completion of their red star. However, there are the occasions where we need CPLs before then, and certain troopers may be promoted prior to earning their red star.

Just like red star, all the silver stars from each of our 4 corps group together on FTXs and complete practical portions of their star training. Back at LHQ the same thing applies to silver as red, promotions are usually made after obtaining their silver star.

Gold is the same as silver, most people gold star qualified in my corps are around the rank of SGT/WO. However there are a few MCPLs who havent made the cut for rank, but have obtained their star.

NSCE qualification is required for anyone in my corps to be promoted above WO, no exceptions.

Just a few notes:

On FTX‘s, the star training sections are led by senior NCO‘s with gold/NSCE, with the exception of the gold star section, which is led by someone with their complete NSCE qualification.

Anyone who receives a higher star level isnt necessarily promoted, certain bad cadets may get the star, but they wont receive the rank until they are ready. Promotions also only happen unless there is a vacancy for a position.

We hold promotion boards in our corps usually twice a year, all sergeant majors, troops officers, plus the CO and DCO attend, and discuss each cadet above the rank of corporal for promotion. (Trooper and Corporal are decided by their troop officers discretion).

Thats all I can think of for now, anymore questions, don‘t hesitate to ask.


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## chalk1

Cool. What would you say(all) to adding some form of leadership tasking to NSCE? Im just assuming that since it is a test for seniors, this should be included.


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## Franko

Good points Caz,MikeM and McBear

Caz...Violence?

I denounced it earlier in this thread.    

Just trying to get the point of knowing the topic PRIOR to saying something across to the lad. 

My appologies for any misunderstandings

Regards


----------



## Franko

Any more ideas out there? I‘m sure there is so keep ‘em coming   

Regards


----------



## MikeM

It would be pretty good if they threw in a tasking evaluation for NSCE, but that would make it tough to get phase 2 of NSCE done in a weekend. 

There are a lot of candidates, and to have everyone complete a tasking using SMESC would take quite some time.


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## chalk1

How many candidates did you have on phase two? We had about 49(26 after the phase was done...). We had time for ours, though. Why not move phase two to march break? besides the admin problems for ACO‘s and higher, doesnt this seem more practical Mike?( or anyone else...)It would give plenty of time for taskings and would ensure quality among sr‘s....waddya think?


----------



## Franko

McBear you‘re thinking outside the box...get back in before you make sense and start scareing everyone   

Regards


----------



## MikeM

Not everyone is readily available on March Break, due to vacations and such, so that causes a conflict.

In COA in Central Region last year we had over 100 cadets at Phase 2. So doing taskings would be a nightmare. I feel that the current testing done now is more than acceptable, however I would like to see them bring back the Map & Compass theory test.


----------



## Franko

MikeM...They got rid of the Map and Compass portion of the testing? Go figure. It‘s the only portion that actually challenged the cadets. Now you can‘t even call it testing.

The army cadets are losing the one thing that they do better than any other cadet element...NAVIGATION on land.

What‘s next...drill?   

Regards


----------



## MikeM

They didn‘t remove map and compass entirely. What they did was remove the Map and Compass Theory test, which was a large written portion of the NSCE. It was originally apart of "Phase 1" of NSCE, along with general knowledge material.

NSCE is currently in 2 Phases, Phase 1 is the General Knowledge exam, with 100 multiple choice questions pertaining to anything in the cadet handbooks. Along with that is the fitness test.

Phase 2 is comprised of practical map and compass testing, a candidate must teach 2 classes, (one drill, and one inclass), aswell as a timed test on knots and lashings.

The practical map & compass is fairly thorough, however it is nothing like the map and compass theory exam, where the cadets were really put to the test. During the new map & compass testing, a cadet must orient a map by inspection and by compass, measure distance along a route twice, shoot a bearing and back bearing, calculate declination, and measuring a bearing.

Map & Compass is a huge part of the NSCE still, however there is no longer any theory questions that must be done on paper, aside from approximatly 10 on the GKE.

We arent losing M&C, the problem is we are losing fieldcraft (its no longer in the handbooks), and that is what set us apart from the rest with M&C.


----------



## Jason Jarvis

> Originally posted by MikeM:
> [qb] We arent losing M&C, the problem is we are losing fieldcraft (its no longer in the handbooks), and that is what set us apart from the rest with M&C. [/qb]


Stupid question alert: what exactly do you mean by fieldcraft, MikeM? Fieldcraft to me is building fires, shelters, setting traps and snares, ground-to-air signals, terrain navigation, hunting and food preparation . . . and map & compass.

My training was in aircrew survival, hence the last place emphasis on map & compass. Am I on the right track? I just want to make sure we‘re talking about the same kinds of things.


----------



## MikeM

Most of that we are losing. By fieldcraft I mean field formations, and general fieldcraft movement.

Ground to air, navigation, hunting, building shelters falls under bushcraft, which is bush survival, fieldcraft is field tactics and things like that. We are losing most of the stuff you mentioned, it is in the books, but barely taught, its on the NSCE test though.


----------



## chalk1

Franko, first you must realise, there is no box.    MikeM, dont forget the cam & concealement, and signals. Thats something i failed to mention earlier, another prerequisite for green stars to pass their trg with my corps is to be able to start a fire with no matches.


----------



## Franko

Everything that you had mentioned MikeM was needed to get a green star at one time(when I joined) Now it seems that the NSCE is getting easier and easier. I‘ve helped out on the testing in years past in NB, this is a drastic change in such a short amount of time. I know of at least 5 cadets who went to NSCE that shouldn‘t have passed and wouldn‘t a few years ago. This is going to have a detremental effect on the future standard of corps nation wide.   

As for the box McBear..when you put on a uniform you are already in the box   

Regards


----------



## chalk1

aw... nuts.


----------



## primer

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb] Primer...good to hear. Glad to see there is some common sense in your corps! What corps is it? Where is it based out of?
> 
> Regards [/qb]


I am the TRG O of 2332 RC(ARMY)CC in Ottawa. we have 3 suppoet units
1. 28  Ottawa Svc Bn
2. 763 Comm Reg Ottawa
3. RCD From Petawawa
yes we have 4 cap badges in our unit 
RCD
Comms
LOG
EME


----------



## Franko

Sounds like a bit much to handle. What is the policy on dress and deportment like there? Must be hard to enforce it on a group of that size. How do you deal with the NCOs who don‘t listen? Judging by the size you can pretty much get rid of any trouble makers without it affecting numbers very much.

Regards


----------



## chalk1

Shouldnt D&D be standard everywhere, Franko? I know we have some things we do that arent standard, like the cavalry halt and not putting that little dent-thingy in our berets (you know, behind the cap brass...Amd thing, methinks.) As for the enforcing, i do believe that‘s the NCO‘s job, right? Didnt we have that discussion in another thread about CIC officers who do the job of sr NCO‘s?


----------



## Franko

Yes we did and most of the CICs who do that are a lousy example themselves. How are the NCOs supposed to learn? The worst thing a young upcoming NCO being over shadowed by a CIC officer. Saw one once wearing not issued boots berateing a SSM, for not being turned out properly on a parade square in the middle of a parade practice!   

As for the calvary halt and the not putting the ____behind the badge, those are all linked to the Corps, a proud tradition that will continue as long as I‘m working with ANY armoured cadet corps!

Regards


----------



## chalk1

Hm. The officer in question must be a textbook example of an overgrown cadet. Thats another ofr my pet peeves; people who criticise their troops in public.


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## Franko

So true so true....

Any comments?

Regards


----------



## MikeM

Yes most of the stuff I mentioned was in Green star, and yes the NSCE seems to be getting easier, there are a lot of cadets passing who shouldn‘t be.


----------



## patt

Hey franko where are you from?


----------



## Franko

You first   

Regards


----------



## primer

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb] Sounds like a bit much to handle. What is the policy on dress and deportment like there? Must be hard to enforce it on a group of that size. How do you deal with the NCOs who don‘t listen? Judging by the size you can pretty much get rid of any trouble makers without it affecting numbers very much.
> 
> Regards [/qb]


As the training Officer the learning curve was straight up. I run training like they do at Summer Camps. 160 plus cadets can be hard at times if they all show up. I have 3 Coys and a band.I have a Officer for each coy as the OC and a cadet MWO as the 2ic Plus I have the best NCM teck advisers in the system I might think. 4 PRes Cpls, one for each Coy, A Reg Force SGT and P-Res WO to help with Drill dress and deportment. I have 17 cadets writing NSCE this spring and all but one will pass but we are working on him to pass.On the Officer side we have an Adj to sort out any problem that they might have with Dress and deportment. Hes is a RTD RSM so they have no problems with him as he speeks concerning any short commings. No too the dress and deportment of my Cadets we use the same guidelines as the Military. I do not let my cadets wear their Combats as a parade uniform like some units in Ontario do. My SR cadets dont wear there combat boots as like the old garrison dress like a few Cadet Units in Ontario My cadets ware the ARMY CADET UNIFORM with there affilated Unit capt badge no more and no less. We as officers at my unit do not wear the Green Uniforms that are issued only on COs Parade. Some of my officers have been issued CADPAT myself inclueded but I still dont wear them on training night till all the officers have them we all should be the same..


----------



## Franko

A reg force SGT? What‘s his name..I might know him.

CADPAT has made it down to the CIC? There are still reg and res units waiting for it themselves...something doesn‘t sound right here.

Enlighten me please...been out of the loop for a few months.

Regards


----------



## primer

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb] A reg force SGT? What‘s his name..I might know him.
> 
> CADPAT has made it down to the CIC? There are still reg and res units waiting for it themselves...something doesn‘t sound right here.
> 
> Enlighten me please...been out of the loop for a few months.
> 
> Regards [/qb]


Yes CADPAT has made its way down to the CIC. It really depends on your support base Clothing stores, some still have the OD green but most dont.On the Reg force SGT NO NAMES NO PACK DRILL

Cheers..


----------



## Franko

Trigger...It‘s good to hear the new kit is getting down to your corps.

On to another question I missed earlier...



> Originally posted by McBear:
> [qb] Shouldnt D&D be standard everywhere, Franko?  [/qb]


Speaking of standards..

Well here‘s a good one for everyone to hear...

This is from eye witness reports and I believe them, so much so I have alluded this to other officers in the Regiment:

A CIC officer was caught in CFB Borden wearing an RCD hatbadge, black beret, and RCD slip ons. He was literally impersonating a Regular force officer and a Dragoon. I couldn‘t believe it when I heard this...who would be so BOLD and stupid to do something like that and think they would get away with it?

As soon as I find out who it was the name is going up to my CO and RSM. I‘m sure they would LOVE to meet the chap and have a few words...such as "CHARGE" and "GUILTY". 

What an insult to my Regiment. What an insult to the CIC. He should be IMMEDIATLY kicked out. What kind of an example was he trying to set? None from what I can figure out, except how to get charged the hard way.

When I find out who he is it‘ll take an ARMY to stop me from bringing his name in.


   :fifty:   

Regards

BTW...if you are seeing this and it‘s YOU I‘m talking about...you best get out NOW and not waste the JAGs time on your case.


----------



## chalk1

Is Borden an Army cadet camp?

As for this fella...grr. I know we cadets arent realy that big of a part of the regiment, but we still have tons of respect for them, and carry on their traditions. Also, being with a Hussars regiment, i especially dont like this whole imitating a "gentleman of the Armoured corps" idea. I mean, how unsatisfied with life does one have to be to do that? Sorry if im getting a little off topic, but really, ladies and gents, this is NOT a good example for the cadets. Did this person just want atention? Im sure that being handcuffed will satisfy that urge...grr.


----------



## primer

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb] Trigger...It‘s good to hear the new kit is getting down to your corps.
> 
> On to another question I missed earlier...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by McBear:
> [qb] Shouldnt D&D be standard everywhere, Franko?  [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of standards..
> 
> Well here‘s a good one for everyone to hear...
> 
> This is from eye witness reports and I believe them, so much so I have alluded this to other officers in the Regiment:
> 
> A CIC officer was caught in CFB Borden wearing an RCD hatbadge, black beret, and RCD slip ons. He was literally impersonating a Regular force officer and a Dragoon. I couldn‘t believe it when I heard this...who would be so BOLD and stupid to do something like that and think they would get away with it?
> 
> As soon as I find out who it was the name is going up to my CO and RSM. I‘m sure they would LOVE to meet the chap and have a few words...such as "CHARGE" and "GUILTY".
> 
> What an insult to my Regiment. What an insult to the CIC. He should be IMMEDIATLY kicked out. What kind of an example was he trying to set? None from what I can figure out, except how to get charged the hard way.
> 
> When I find out who he is it‘ll take an ARMY to stop me from bringing his name in.
> 
> 
> :fifty:
> 
> Regards
> 
> BTW...if you are seeing this and it‘s YOU I‘m talking about...you best get out NOW and not waste the JAGs time on your case. [/qb]
Click to expand...

May I ask did this happen at the Cadet Camp.I know of only one SHR Officer that was a RCD. He should have been wearing the RCD Badge NOT THE CIC that he was . You might know him they call him MICKEY last name SPLANE was releast from the Reg‘s as an LT but work as the Camp Adj as a Capt. He is a waste of RATIONS.....anyone that works at a Cadets Training Center for 2 years. Then Talks about the CIC to SR NCMs over a few dozen pops like he did should be taken out behind the Mod tents and talked too....


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## chalk1

With all due respect, shouldnt we keep the public bashing of a CF officer, well, not public?


----------



## Caz

In fact, we should.  Primer, you‘re an officer, you should know better.

Franko - CIC will only wear CIC badges, even if the cadets in his corps get to wear RCD as an affilated unit.  It could be that they didn‘t know any better... hopefully the guy gets a copy of CFP 265 stuffed in his face, and corrected so he is setting a proper example.

Just a curious question, Primer - shouldn‘t you run LHQ training like an LHQ?  And why do you wear your field combat clothing instead of your 3B/3C on a regular parade night?  I know that in Alberta, a msg was sent to all Army units stating that there was no reason for Army CIC to wear combats on a regular basis to the unit... it‘s like the Navy wearing NCDs weekly.

-R.


----------



## primer

> Originally posted by Caz:
> [qb] In fact, we should.  Primer, you‘re an officer, you should know better.
> 
> Franko - CIC will only wear CIC badges, even if the cadets in his corps get to wear RCD as an affilated unit.  It could be that they didn‘t know any better... hopefully the guy gets a copy of CFP 265 stuffed in his face, and corrected so he is setting a proper example.
> 
> Just a curious question, Primer - shouldn‘t you run LHQ training like an LHQ?  And why do you wear your field combat clothing instead of your 3B/3C on a regular parade night?  I know that in Alberta, a msg was sent to all Army units stating that there was no reason for Army CIC to wear combats on a regular basis to the unit... it‘s like the Navy wearing NCDs weekly.
> 
> -R. [/qb]


Good Question On LHQ I do it that way because I like it that way. Its still LHQ training but the structure is after the Summer camp. My Combats are work dress I have not seen that message that you are talking about yet..


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## Disappointed9411

good evening gentlemen, ex-cadet did para in 92 and have tons to say about the state of cadets today. . . .


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## Disappointed9411

sorry 94 its dark in here


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## MikeM

Officers in my corps, aswell as all cadets wear combats on regular evenings (aside from CO‘s parades and formal events).

Alberta is the only province that is barring combats from use.


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## Disappointed9411

Mike what cadet corps are you in?


----------



## patt

> Originally posted by McBear:
> [qb] Is Borden an Army cadet camp?[/qb]


Blackdown is now all the services i think i didnt hear much about the navy being down there i know the air cadets are down there now..man it must be **** to go to the mess every day to get something to eat when i was last there(2001) it took us 30mins just to get in half the time


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## chalk1

Yeah. We heard it was a hole.


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## Disappointed9411

I was staff there in 95 and it was only tents like old Pet. and a hurricane hit it, its a palace now compared to what it was


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## MikeM

I‘m with 1913 Ontario Regiment in Oshawa.


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## Disappointed9411

do you know mellissa avery?


----------



## Jason Jarvis

> Originally posted by Caz:
> [qb] Franko - CIC will only wear CIC badges, even if the cadets in his corps get to wear RCD as an affilated unit.  It could be that they didn‘t know any better... hopefully the guy gets a copy of CFP 265 stuffed in his face, and corrected so he is setting a proper example.[/qb]


Well now, this is interesting. At my corps, the officers are encouraged to wear the regimental badge and shoulder tabs, and both the CO and TrgO do so on a regular basis -- only the OpsO and SupO wear their CIC badges. This comes from the CO of the regiment. Apparently the ACO isn‘t pleased with this, but to my knowledge it‘s never ordered our officers to NOT wear regimental kit.

I would also like to see my corps ban combats on training nights, both for cadets and officers. Sorry guys, I just think they look sloppy. I‘ve always felt that cadets need proper uniforms to instill a sense of discipline and hard work, promote a coherent unit image and create a sense of espirit de corps. Wearing combats provides none of that for cadets, IMHO.


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## chalk1

Thanks for keeping things on track, Jason. If you guys want to discuss other things, Pm each other; dont waste space on this thread.

 I dont agree with having officers wear the units cap brass, as they arent members of that particular unit, theyre members of the CIC. Also, Im quite sure some members of the regiment would (justfully) disagree with this.


----------



## Franko

Primer...the guy was a CIC officer...a Captain at that. As for CIC wearing affiliated unit‘s badges and such...it‘s a HUGE no no. Firstly, they are not a part of the Regiment. Secondly, they are not a Regular force officer. I know the district commander of LFAA cadet area from a while back  and he touched on this very subject. His response to me was: The officer would be brought up on charges and the book would be thrown at them.

Please understand I‘m not saying that a CIC officers‘ commision is not a commission but there is a HUGE difference.

Regular force officers in the Corps go through YEARS of training to become a 2Lt, More to push up to Capt. When they get to Maj...well it‘s enough to take up this entire thread.

Needless to say this individual was trying to pass themselves off as a gentleman officer of the Royal Canadian Dragoons...when he most assuredly wasn‘t. Therefore this is construed as impersonation...therefore chargeable under the QR&O Vol 2.

As for cadets wearing Regimental regalia...I‘m all for it. It brings up moral and ensures closer ties to their affiliated unit. But when a CIC officer does it...well you know the rest.

It also aets a HORRIBLE example to the cadets.

Comments please

Regards


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## chalk1

If you didnt earn it, dont wear it. This is just like that air cadet i mentioned in the para thread who wore jump wings when i was in Trenton.


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## primer

Franco was this officer working at Blackdown Cadet Camp ?????... if you cant say here goto different means...


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## Franko

I don‘t know where Blackdown is (I‘m new to Ontario)...I‘m assumeing it‘s at CFB Borden...where this incident happened. 

As for going on other means...there is nothing to hide...except for names of which I will not divuldge.

Regards


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## chalk1

That kind of makes me wonder. Whos responsible for disciplining an officer in such a case? Isnt it supposed to be the Adjutant? in any case, im just wondering how staff/course cadets would report such a thing.


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## patt

Yes blackdown is in Borden its on the ranges..


----------



## Caz

> Originally posted by McBear:
> [qb] That kind of makes me wonder. Whos responsible for disciplining an officer in such a case? Isnt it supposed to be the Adjutant? in any case, im just wondering how staff/course cadets would report such a thing. [/qb]


Theory is, the Adj should take care of it.  It wouldn‘t be up to the course/staff cadets to correct the officers‘ dress.

Primer - yes, your combats are your work dress, just like NCDs for the Navy, and our work dress pants/shirts for the Air Force.  However, you shouldn‘t need, as an officer, to wear work dress on a regular basis to the LHQ for mandatory training.  Do you see the XO of the local Sea Cadets Corps wearing their NCDs?

As for regimental shoulder titles and cap badges, I direct you to CFP 265, Chapter 3, Section 4, Para 19:  





> [qb]19. Cadet Instructors Cadre (CIC) Officers.
> CIC officers shall wear only approved CIC badges.[/qb]


CIC Army will only wear CIC Army cap badge and shoulder titles, as the CIC _is_ their branch of the CF.  Any Army CIC officer who thinks otherwise needs to go back on BOQ.


----------



## Spartan

Another thing that i‘m not sure if it has been mentioned, that could be improved for cadets, is for the CIC and CCM to recognize former military training/qualifications...

ex: We want to do winter ex‘s. We don‘t have any CIC winter qual personnel in my unit. 
but we DO have: a {former} infantry officer (he‘s still in service - just now CIC) and has taken winter survival
a former reserve Sgt (now Capt CIC) who was instructing the Rangers up north in the Yukon....

and we don‘t have anyone qualified? this is an example ... and this does happen across Canada- the CCM has to recognize former trg and quals.... in order to keep trying to persuade any former military members to help out with cadet units/ CIC,..


----------



## cdhoult

The issue is sometimes finding old Officers/NCM‘s who want to volunteer with a corps as a posting. Where there are units around, it isn‘t an issue. What about that Sea Cadet Corps in a city that has one Army Reserve Unit? Probably not too many interested....even some ACA‘s and ACO‘s that get posted aren‘t happy they. They didn‘t join the forces to work with 12-18 year olds. They join to do whatever trade they joined into.

Poster Child for the CIC:

 http://www.wwcs.org.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=8&stc=1 

LCdr Gloria Walsh. 8 and a half months pregnant, and running the largest Sea Cadet Corps in BC as a Reservist. I have the highest respect for this woman.

A lot of ex-cadets who go CIC mock the BOQ Course...But after a lot of discussion, you have to realize who it‘s designed for. It‘s designed for the Mom who got pulled into it, and knows NOTHING about the military at ALL. 

Give the people a chance.

Recruiting officers isn‘t always easy. A lot of parents get ‘roped in‘, with the line, "One night a week, and the occassional weekend" which I‘ve been informed is some sick joke shared by CIC Officers    It‘s a hard job!

There‘s some CIC Officers that could out-lead a PRes Officer, and vice versa. Some of it‘s personality, and some of it is how you take the training and apply it.

Every corps is going to run somewhat differentley. We could try to unify them all, but a) that would be boring, and b) it wouldn‘t work for everyone.

Every group of cadets is different, every group of NCM‘s, and officers at a corps. 

If I were to give some general advice for the CCM as a whole?

Teach mentoring. It doesn‘t happen enough, and a lot of people don‘t know how. It‘s hard for an 18 year old to just ‘know‘ how to mentor a 12 year old. Give them some knowledge!

Use the IT Lessons as a Guideline, and allow people to develop their own style. Rigid instructors are boring. Technically, they may follow everything written in the book, but it needs a personal flare!

We also have the realize that cadets need to ENJOY attending every week, especially the 14/15 year olds who are starting highschool. Once the cadet enters high school, you are in competition with clubs, plays, sports teams, partys, etc. Does it mean you have to change thre program to make them LOVE it every week? Not necessarily, stick to the basic rules, but realize that tearing a cadet out for boots that don‘t look amazing isn‘t going to win you any points.

They don‘t have to take it -- and they won‘t.

In the grande scheme of things, cadets is a YOUTH ORGANIZATION. Sometimes we forget that.

REMEMBER THE CADET.

CH


----------



## Caz

Ed, can you explain ‘winter qual‘ CIC?

Thanks,
Rob


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## Spartan

> Originally posted by Caz:
> [qb] Ed, can you explain ‘winter qual‘ CIC?
> 
> Thanks,
> Rob [/qb]


The Winter Course that you need on the CIC side in order to have and instruct winter exs for cadets.


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## chriscalow

The "Cold Weather Indoctrination Course" is a course designed to teach CIC officers the skills and knowledge needed to take a cadet corps on a winter exercise.  Things learned include: Hygiene in the field, improvised shelters, first aid, navigation, and the rules and regulations regarding cadets in the field during cold weather.  During the course the candidates spend 1 weekend learning all the theory, and get issued their kit, the next two weekends are spent in the field, the first weekend the candidates sleep in 5 man arctic tents, the second weekend (which my father in law is on right now), they sleep in half shelters.  I hope this awnsers any questions and if I‘m wrong about any of this then I apologize.  If you have any more questions about this you can send me a private message and I can forward it to him.


----------



## Franko

> Originally posted by Jason:
> [qb] At my corps, the officers are encouraged to wear the regimental badge and shoulder tabs, and both the CO and TrgO do so on a regular basis  This comes from the CO of the regiment. Apparently the ACO isn‘t pleased with this, but to my knowledge it‘s never ordered our officers to NOT wear regimental kit.
> [/qb]


Your officers have been ordered, it‘s just that they are choosing to ignore the ordrer. It‘s stated in the dress regulations that they are ORDERED to adhere to. If they don‘t, the ACO should come down on them like a ton of bricks. If he doesn‘t, the district comander should fire him and get a new ACO.

I know the CO of the RCD NEVER gave permission to ANY CIC officer to wear the acutriments of the Regiment.

This situation WILL be sorted out.

Regards


----------



## chalk1

What i meant was how does a cadet report this if his/her officers are all doing it? To the best of my knowledge, there isnt a way for cadets to report something such as this, whether it be at camp or LHQ.

Franko, just outta curiosity, what have the guys in your unit said about this? And how would you know if your CO never gave permission? Perhaps he allowed this without knowledge of the QR&O.


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## cdhoult

In all technicality, you, as a cadet, are not ‘bound‘, legally, to any chain of command. While it‘s nice to follow procedure, I could call the Admiral tommorow. Although I better have a good reason.

Call up your ACO, but pick your battles. In the ideal world, you should have no fear of reprecussions...however, we all know that if the CO were to find out it were you, depending on the CO, it wouldn‘t be great for your career.


----------



## Franko

Firstly 3005 MWO...I am NOT a cadet. Check my profile.

I don‘t answer to the CIC CO or ACO in anyway. I do however ensure that all info is shared freely and they are kept in the ‘loop‘.

As such, there are no reprecussions for myself. 

The chain of command for my situation is the Regimental Cadet LO then the CO. When the LO is not availiable or out on task, I take on his responsibilities and position. I have been told by the LO that I have the COs ear whenever I require it. I also brief the CO and LO on everything that happens on a nightly basis.

As for what the Officers in my Regiment have to say on it is "Find him and get him charged, just ensure you have all the evidence".

 I have enough to begin an official investigation but am waiting for enough to ensure a conviction bigger than section 129 of QR&O Vol 2. 

This charge will be pressed and completed, the only thing is when will it happen.

It‘s too bad that it came to this though...if he were to own up to it to the CO and his CO it may not have to go that far...perhapse a slap on the wrist.

Oh well...

Regards


----------



## cdhoult

I was responding to McBear, who said: 

"To the best of my knowledge, there isnt a way for *cadets* to report something such as this,"

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but my post was RIGHT under McBears.

CH


----------



## Franko

Sorry about that. Thought you were interjecting into our conversation.

Regards


----------



## Feist

I have read through this entire thread, and it prompted me to register on this site.  There are interesting and thoughtful posts here.  As someone who has spent 11 years involved with the cadet program, I have much to say, but I will limit myself to what I think are the big 3 problems with the Cadet program.  Overall, I think that the program is excellent, and that it is more important to the CF and to the nation than many people realize.  That said, I think there is definite room for improvement.  So without further ado:

#3 - PR - Most people, both in the public at large, and in the CF, have no idea what cadets do.  When I ask the uninitiated about their conception of Army Cadets, responses range from glorified boy scouts to the Hitler youth.  The idea that the CCM is Canada‘s best kept secret is painfully accurate.  We need to recruit and retain more youth, but that will only come by better informing everyone of what it is that we actually do.  

I have begun an attempt, with some success, to re-engage with our affiliated unit and with our local community.  I think that the CCM as a whole needs to take the same approach.

#2 - CIC Selection/Training - High school teachers spend a minimum of 4 years in university to teach young people.  CIC officers receive an 8 day course, further courses taken on their own initiative, and OJT.  It is very difficult to understand the rationale behind allowing CIC officers, who are required to do much the same work as teachers training-wise (in addition to managing a military unit and in addition to running youth through moderate and high risk training situations) to enrol without meeting at least the RESO prerequisites.  

This is a touchy subject for CIC officers; many officers do not hold any post-secondary education, let alone a degree. But requiring CIC officers to hold or at least to be completing university degrees would set a solid minimum standard for the Branch.

Creating CIC NCMs to fill Supply, Admin, and Assistant Training roles within Corps would ensure that units would not close due to a change that would bring CIC standards into line with the rest of the CF.  In the Regular and Primary Reserve, those specialist positions (Coy Clk, Log Tech) are held by NCMs.  How a cadet Administration Officer or Logistics Officer differs in function is beyond me.  Creating CIC NCMs would take away the only valid excuse for not requiring CIC officers to hold degrees.

As such, as much as it offends or irritates people to hear that CIC officers should hold degrees, that standard would improve the program for our youth and bring the Branch the respect that it is due.  If the cost is hurt feelings, so be it.

#1 - Mush Mentality - The biggest problem with the CCM today is a mentality that has crept into many units and establishments.  This mentality basically holds that a youth organization should not adhere to any sort of military philosophy or tradition beyond the wearing of uniforms and the acceptance of military funding.  I think we all realize that the CCM is trading on 12 to 18 year olds.  That realization, however, does not justify or excuse the dumbing down of standards, the necessity for solid discipline, or the very successful military-based program that has seen us through the past 125 years.  Many in the program see those changes as positive, as inclusive, and as a way to make things easier for everyone.  And while lowering standards and decreasing discipline will definitely make things easier on people, what we lose is the spirit and raison d‘etre of the program, borne in that idscipline and those standards.  Leaders are not developed by singing campfire songs and discussing feelings; leaders are developed through command on the parade square and in the field.  That is reality.

We already have a Scout program in this country; the CCM is different and its success is a testament to that difference.  Changing what is broken with the cadet program is fine; changing what works is a dangerous and foolish course.

Apologies for the novel.  CEDE NULLIS.


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## Caz

> Originally posted by Symchyshyn:
> [qb] The Winter Course that you need on the CIC side in order to have and instruct winter exs for cadets. [/qb]


I can tell you with absolute confidence that CWIC is *not* required, at least for Air CIC, to conduct a winter Ex.  In fact, the course is typically limited to R92A (Army) ONLY, with Air filling in gaps where a vacancy may exist.

Cheers,
R


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## Caz

Robert, I would disagree with degrees - I would agree with progression towards any kind of post-secondary education (tech certificate, college diploma), as we are setting an example for the youth we work with.

-R.


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## Spartan

> Originally posted by Caz:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Symchyshyn:
> [qb] The Winter Course that you need on the CIC side in order to have and instruct winter exs for cadets. [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you with absolute confidence that CWIC is *not* required, at least for Air CIC, to conduct a winter Ex.  In fact, the course is typically limited to R92A (Army) ONLY, with Air filling in gaps where a vacancy may exist.
> 
> Cheers,
> R [/qb]
Click to expand...

Well that‘s what I‘ve been told by Capt‘s and Lt‘s 
including my CO, so ....

hmmmm.


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## Franko

Good points Feist. That wasn‘t a novel BTW...   

What are your views on the PT standard?

Regards


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## elscotto937

I fought this battle, referance the CWIC, I was told by an Air ACO that it was required, I have yet to find it in print (I really haven‘t looked that hard). They told me I was not allow to supervise the cadets on a winter ex...

Feist, what a degree gives people is life experience. It can be obtained in other ways, but Caz is correct in that some sort of professional is a good role model for cadets. And Feist, CIC officers should not be cadets who just got too old for cadets and had nothing better to do. I have not met one of those who was worth anything... I know it‘s a generalization, but that‘s these forums are for generalizations.

Scott


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## elscotto937

Sorry, Feist... I was not really that clear in my last post... in principle I agree with you..


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Feist, you remind me of the Fedex commercial{ you don‘t understand, I have an MBA}. Get out of that stupid mindset that schooling makes you a better instructor or leader. There are lots more important attributes than whether your family could afford to send you for a degree. I have no problem with raising standards but its total foolishness to think it comes from a piece of paper. I‘ve never been involved with cadets but you personally seem to be more concerned with getting the RESPECT you think you deserve than anything else. Hopefully I‘m way off base with that last statement and if so I will be more than happy to eat my words. CHEERS


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## primer

> Originally posted by Caz:
> [qb] Robert, I would disagree with degrees - I would agree with progression towards any kind of post-secondary education (tech certificate, college diploma), as we are setting an example for the youth we work with.
> 
> -R. [/qb]


I did my CWIC back in 95 At CRPTC in Ottawa. I was one of two Army CIC officers on the course. The rest were Air CIC.It was a great time out there in the BUSH...


----------



## Franko

> Originally posted by primer:
> [qb]I did my CWIC back in 95 At CRPTC in Ottawa. I was one of two Army CIC officers on the course. The rest were Air CIC.It was a great time out there in the BUSH... [/qb]


Your point is?.........

Regards


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## chalk1

Few too many pops...oops, MY mistake again...POPS.


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## Franko

I think you‘re right McBear.

Primer...there is already a war story thread started by yours trully.   

Regards


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## chalk1

For those of you who feel like youre out of the loop on an inside joke, Franko and I are referring to ...Varnish...or Sealer...dangit, whats his name? Oh yeah, Primers offer of a drink to me on the end of p.5 & beginning of p.6 in the "cadet para course" thread. Too bad Im underage...whats this thread about again?


----------



## primer

Franco my point is that RCIS has opened all of the old "land OPS ARMY" courses to Air and Sea Officers in the CIC with the exception of one C7 RSO. Also you do need to have one CWIC Qual Officer to take cadets on any winter EX.And back to the "POP" thing my bad....


----------



## elscotto937

They let CIC officers be RSOs on C7 Ranges...Sound kinda dangerous, wait... now that I think about it there are some that I wouldn‘t be completely nervious about.


----------



## Franko

Anytime I was on the range I was the OPI and OIC practice because the CIC RSO wasn‘t up to par on the proper drills. It got to the point that it was determined that a CLC qualified Cpl MAY be an RSO if his CO and ACO agree. I was given the position.

As for Air and Sea CIC getting in on training, sounds good to me.

Regards


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## Franko

Scott937.....

*BBBWWWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAaaaaa*
 

Regards


----------



## chalk1

Franko, do you mean the cadet CO or regimental CO? Also (all) what have you heard about ret‘d CF members as CIC officers? What qualifications can they use in cadets?


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## Franko

Both of them.

As for their qualifications, it only takes a few months of training to get  a reg force officer up to par for CIC tasks. Normaly they just sit back and analize the corps, how things work..the personalities involved etc before jumping in. Caution is always the best thing, as is taking it slowly for the first few months to get the corps and the officer acclimated to their new position.

All of their training in the Regs carries over to the CIC world. If they retire as a Capt or Maj they keep the rank, unless something has changed in the past 5 months in the CATOs or CFAOs.

Regards


----------



## cdhoult

The only issue I could see surrounding that (and I‘m not sure if it applies to Reg Force members-gone CIC, but it applies to substantive Majors in the CIC)is that apparently the CO must be the highest rank. Even in corps where there are Lt‘s as the CO, if a Captain comes in, and isn‘t being the CO, they take a rank reduction (and pay!). 

When people get promoted to Major out here on the west coast in the CIC, apparently they have to sign something that essentially says, "I will not work with cadet corps after my term, yadda, yadda, yadda" then they been their rank after they step down, but they can‘t work with the corps anymore. 

I‘ll look a little more into the technical aspect, but I believe that‘s the way it was explained to me...

CH


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## 2573army

The CO can be equal rank, and lower payscale, but there cannot be a higher rank you‘re right


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## Franko

Looking it up in the QR&Os....wait out.

Regards


----------



## Franko

Please be paitient. I was quite busy today and couldn‘t do any research on it at all. I will find it...hopefully soon.   

Regards


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## Franko

Anyone else can chime in if they have the subject matter at hand. Just extremly busy right now...still searching now and then.

Regards


----------



## primer

working with your TA‘s and getting to understand them will help out.Not banging heads.As I have for over 1.5 years.Working out your problems and not holdng it in. Now I can call Him a Friend after working it out....

Thinking before you act is allways good

Cheers


----------



## sgt_mandal

If this has already been said then disregard this post.

I feel that Air Cadets as well should be able to handle C7‘s. By handling I meen doing drill AND shooting with them.


----------



## Spartan

thats not going to happen in any way shape or form, too army and people (mainly the league) wouldn‘t like it.

besides, that‘s more the army cadets side anyways ( I don‘t think its a bad idea ) just like the sea cadets get to do lee enfield rifle drill ( air only gets to if in a flag party), every element has certain things , the air side is young but also is being the guinea pig for things like leadership, etc to develop things for the other elements. We‘ll see where the CCM goes in 2007/8. When all 3 programs will be re written.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Didn‘t have time to read all the posts

Back in the 80‘s we took a selection of cadets with us on gun camp and they crewed 105mm howitzers and carried the FNC1‘s doing live fire on both, generally 1-2 cadets per gun. these kids knew they were being given a big chance and all them worked very hard to prove themselves, they made all the typical mistakes of someone young and we made sure that 1 person was detailed to buddy with each. As the Gun commander I was very pleased with them and would have had cadets back on my gun anytime. Many of these cadets moved on to going both the regs and the reserves. Frankly I think we are wasting a wonderful resource of career soliders. We should base it on the "boy soldier concept" (the joy of being politically incorrect!)


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## Franko

Colin...so you think we shouldn‘t support the cadets..or should we?

Your note was a bit cryptic and I‘m anxious to go to Vienna...3 hours to go.

Regards


----------



## chriscalow

Colin, I like where your going with that.  I think that real military people would maybe have a different view of the cadets if they were given more chances to try things like that (firing howitzers), it could give the bad apples something to look forward to and something to try for, any thoughts?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb] Colin...so you think we shouldn‘t support the cadets..or should we?
> 
> Your note was a bit cryptic and I‘m anxious to go to Vienna...3 hours to go.
> 
> Regards [/qb]


Franko while you are sipping one of those wonderful beers, think of me! Are you going to use the line "I may be dead soon and need to make love to you " on one girls there?

Glad to hear you are getting some free time to play.

the answer to your question is YES I do support the Cadets (I was an anchor-cranker), they are an important part of our heritage and we need them to bring the concept of military service as a good thing into our communities. The more the miltary is cut off from the public, the easier it is to cut the military, we learned this lesson the hard way on the Coast Guard ships. Serving soldiers should see working with cadet as a mentoring activity, similar to the sort of thing that police and firefighter do. If you can reach the kids and educate them, before they get the "Disney world view" then we will have a good source of recruits and supporters at the voting booth.


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## Franko

Good point Colin...I‘m glad you finally came over from T Net with George...

My name for the next 4 days will be Karl G..   

Regards


----------



## dano

Agreed. (with QY Rang, Colin P)

It is of great privilege and opportunity that the Seniors and I we‘re invited to a special Ex. Coming Feb 27-29. At CFB Borden. This FTX consists of the Reg force training us on Winter techniques.

We are going to be issued all our gear. (Purkas,Wet pants,Winter Gear, etc)
Making and sleeping in our improvised shelters.

I am extremely excited, my W.O. and I agree, its like going to heaven.

It is very good to feel and know that the "Reg force" really does care about the training that a Cadet Corps get as well as quality training.

This event is obviously a rare one, but I wish it was not. Which is why this leads me to a possible sperate topic, "Why do parents allow their children to join ARMY cadets, if they do not want them holding a rifle, or even simple as being ordered and/or yelled at!"

With all these complaining parents the rules and policys have been changed so it is as if it we‘re Boy Scouts with a rank structure. This effectively inhibits optimal or for that matter mediocre interest in the CF to be greatly uninfluential.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Franko
I still play here and at Tnet, along with MLU forum and a few others

Did you know if Iain Clark from Afghanistan has been lurking here? I enjoyed his posts. Cheers and don‘t get arrested to early into your leave!


----------



## chalk1

ColinP...wow. Youve summed up exactly what every cadet wants. Now, any ideas on how we, as cadets(though i havent enough time left in the program) can make these opinions heard, or if we are actually able to make a change?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I am afraid that I am to out of touch with the cadet corp to make specific comments, it‘s been since 87 that I was involved with any cadets. Perhaps, when I finish my hiatus from volunteering, I should put some money where my mouth is and volunteer with the Cadet Corp. I just wanted to add a positive to the comments about the potential of cadets.


----------



## Drummie

McBear, there just may be a way.  I am the cadet  co-editor for  _ON-TARGET_ The official Army Cadet League newsletter which sends copies to every corps in Canada. it would have to worded very finely though, because last time I critiqued the system about NSCE, it wasn‘t all happy go lucky, so DCdts didn‘t like that, and poop rolled downhill from Ottawa.


----------



## chalk1

Waitaminnit....are you Sgt Correia? (forgive me if the spelling‘s wrong).


----------



## Drummie

Oui, It‘s W.O. now, and yes spelling is correct. Sorry, I dunno who you are..

And BTW, if any of you cadets have any ideas for articles you‘d like to see in On-Target, give me a shout, b/c good ideas are hard to come up with.


----------



## sgt_mandal

You should be able to do PT as a punishment like doing laps or pushups. There are too many slackass cadets to say "It‘s ok, just do it next week" even though this would be the fourth week!


----------



## cdhoult

Some people say that PT is an aim of the Cadet Movement, ergo it should be used as a punishment because it‘s ‘promoting‘ it.

Now, we are trying to teach cadets to ENJOY PT. If we associate it with punishment, it means they won‘t like PT (much like if you use drill as a punishment). If it actually fits the crime, I‘m all for it (Cadet screws around in a drill class, they do drill on their break, in order to demonstrate the EO required).

Get creative with your discipline, and make it fit the crime. Associating good things with punishment is a bad way to go.

CH


----------



## pyro_208

In my opinion if cadets was ever to become better CIC officers should have to go get miliary experance by being part of a reserve unit for a few years before being put in any position at cadet corps. Besides they get commissioned, they might as well do somtheing with it. And the skills they get would be useful when they get go to a cadet corps.


----------



## sgt_mandal

3005_MWO:

I was talking about when you see the cadets outside of a classroom setting. What do you guys do?


----------



## cdhoult

Depends on what happened, and who did it.

The same type of punishment will not work for everyone, as everyone is different. Some cadets you just have to go, "I don‘t want to see that again", and that‘s the end of it, some require a bit more of a talking to.

A lot of the time though, asks the cadets what THEY would do if they were in YOUR shoes....given the chance, they are usually harsher than you could be. Written warnings that they have to sign work well, because things have much more meaning when laid down, or actually asking what‘s going on. Sometimes they are doing it for attention, sometimes they don‘t want to be there, so are acting out. 

Each cadet is different. So the first step: Get to know your cadets    The rest should hopefully fall into place.

CH


----------



## Franko

Perhapse a little lesson in the 10 Principles of Leadership would be in order for ALL corps NCOs and CIC officers?

What about conducting leadership refresher classes to all the staff prior to kicking off the training year?

Regards


----------



## cdhoult

I totally agree. Many of the problems NCO‘s experience can be deduced back to one of the 10 principles. Refreshers are always a good thing   

CH


----------



## c.jacob

Thanks for taking the time to take the poll.


----------



## Burrows

We're not going to debate who made cadets better/ruined cadets forever.  Just answer the poll.


----------



## Pronto123

Parents, too many complaints about certain things.
I've heard that too many of them were scared about the Military side of the training. I guess thier kids should have stayed in Boy Scouts. :tsktsk:


----------



## Clément Barbeau Vermet

100 % agree with Kenchin. Example: When they made the cadet reform in the late 90's, drill with weapons became optional and units that decided that it would be part of their instructing program would be issued plastic C7s. Their were so many parents that made complaints about these plastic C7 being to violent that they changed back to the old Lee Enfeilds. In my opinion every cadet in Canada should learn to drill with a REAL C7.
                                                                                                                               Clément


----------



## alan_li_13

> In my opinion every cadet in Canada should learn to drill with a REAL C7.



Why? So we can confuse the public even more to the point that they think little cadet private Tommy marching down Yonge street on Santa Claus Parade will get sent to war? 

I think the Lee-Enfields are quite enough. We should be thankful that it hasn't been taken away yet.
Don't get me wrong, I love rifle drill, but placing real military weapons, tools for KILLING, in hands of children would generate some pretty bad PR.


----------



## ouyin2000

Well then let's not go so far as to teach EVERY cadet C7 rifle drill.

When I was on my CL course in 2000, we were taught C7 rifle drill, and I loved every second of it. It goes along with that "Stimulate an interest in the Canadian Forces" thing we teach as part of the aims of the CCM.

I think we should bring back the C7 drill, but maybe only for a certain age group. (I was 13 when I was in CL, but maybe 14 or 15+ would be a good age to start C7 training)


----------



## sgt_mandal

I think its a melange of a few of those options....insurance liabilities and parents I'd say have the most influence. but there are other factors, like the trying to be politically correctness of not calling manhunt "manhunt" or not being able to go to laser quest as a sqn activity...i don't even think its about political correctness, but i couldn't think of what else to call the act of not being able to play those games. It goes a little overboard with that.


----------



## Kaziklu

If British Cadet and American Cadets are capable of using Military weapons and the such.. I don't see why Canadian Cadets can't.. But it's not my call. I think PR issues with what people think can and can't be understood by a population that has no respect and/or understanding of the Canadian Forces, heightened by a increasing willingness to sue the Leagues and or DND for a perceive slight against their son or daughter, through activities that may if done improperly or through acts of nature may result in injury and thus causing an increase insurance.. 

so one could say it is a combination of everything as our society changes and evolves into a more peace loving society.


----------



## ryanmann356

If the parents are worried about the military aspect of Army Cadets then why enroll they're kids in the program!? Keep little Johnny Bloggins in scouts if they are worried.  The problem is there are some parents who complain and give bad PR about cadets turning their kids into little GI Joes without having alot of information on the subject.  I had a mother of a new recruit complain about me because i was calling drill too loudly one night  :   But there are also alot of parents out there who really support the CCM and volunteer their time at the corps and thats great!  I love seeing parents that are so proud they're teary eyed as their child marches up to receive his promotion to Private.  
Perhaps if they left the C7 rifle drill and rifle shooting to kids 16+ it would be alot better.  My corps did a shoot with C7s for gold stars only about a year ago (I was a silver star and wasnt allowed to attend) :-[  It could be used as a motivation for kids to stay in the program even, and if the parents have a problem with it then they dont have to let their kid go.


----------



## p_imbeault

Armyboi
Cadets is fine the way it is. If Cadets want to use the C-7 (you and ouyin suggest something about the age of 15 to use it?) then they can wait until they turn 16 and join the PRes. The Lee Enfields are fine for Ceremonies and other Parades, most Corps already have enough of them, why spend more money on a Mock C-7 for practise and C-7 for parades when we have enough of the Lee Enfields? A rifle is a rifle after all (for drill anyway).

The ARMY is still in ARMY Cadets. Honestly, If your not satisfied with the amount military oriented training then leave.


----------



## GGHG_Cadet

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> It should be a real rifle when it public for a parade (Remembrance Day for example), but a rubber rifle is fine for practice purposes.



I'm sorry but I don't really see any point in a cadet corps parading with rifles, I mean how many corps actually do that now? The only parade you may be able to do that is for the ACR. It just doesn't make sense to parade with rifles anyways where would you get them all from? You should not be parading with weapons on Rememberance day (unless Cenotaph Guard) because it is a church parade.


----------



## p_imbeault

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but I don't really see any point in a cadet corps parading with rifles, I mean how many corps actually do that now? The only parade you may be able to do that is for the ACR. It just doesn't make sense to parade with rifles anyways where would you get them all from? You should not be parading with weapons on Rememberance day (unless Cenotaph Guard) because it is a church parade.


I feel the same way, most Cadet corps I know rarely parade with rifles, (And when they do its always the Lee Enfields) only for Cenotaph, or the Flag Party for Annual Review...


----------



## Dane

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but I don't really see any point in a cadet corps parading with rifles, I mean how many corps actually do that now? The only parade you may be able to do that is for the ACR. It just doesn't make sense to parade with rifles anyways where would you get them all from? You should not be parading with weapons on Rememberance day (unless Cenotaph Guard) because it is a church parade.



You're sort of correct in your sentiment, but now every Corps in BC is getting drill purpose rifles. I think it's a good idea. For all those of you that say, what's the purpose of parading with rifles, I respond that it is historically signifigant to our movement. You can't have anattitude like then and then go on to criticize the movement for changes it's made.

Also, for anyone that said parent's I'd disagree. Parent's have almost no say in the program. Who do they talk too? The unit CO, who probably doesnt pass the comments on. Not many parents get involved anyways. The changes are at the League level and DND. Some is reaction to percieved opinions that don't have backing, and some is simply modernization.


----------



## alan_li_13

> Its a great organisation, stop lamenting the 'good old days' or 'the UK/US does it better so why can't we'. Get out there and take advantage of all it has to offer.



Exactly. 

As for Armyboi, first of all, I appreciate it but there is no need for the formality of "sir" in here, we're on an equal footing.

The average Joe off the street will not bother checking what organization a cadet on the street is, and will most likely complain to his local MP about the government allowing the neighborhood kid totting a C7. 
Also, I personally would differentiate a C7 and a Lee-Enfield with the fact that the C7s only purpose currently is for killing abet in defense or offense, and this is recognized from movies, TV, and etc. The Lee-Enfield, being a bolt-action rifle, not to mention almost an antique, is more similar to a hunting rifle that can be purchased commercially by hunters. Even then, I do not think rifle drill should be done outside of DND controlled areas such as on city streets. I believe it should be kept to the confines of the local armouries or CSTCs.

Also, parading with C7s regularly could pose a problem to the unit in terms of security and also finance. C7s are probably relatively expensive to acquire, store, and maintain, not to mention qualifications for officers.

Finally, I always here many complaints of the lack of militarisms in cadets. This is absolutely not true. Let me assure you all (oh boy, I hope I don't get in trouble for this) that in my 3- years of army cadets, I have done so much that half the squadron here have never even HEARD of. Orienteering, winter Indoc exercises, Sunset parades, quarter guards, vigils, building rope bridges, not to mention para   :'( of course. All very military oriented stuff. Just sit back, work hard, and take a detached view and enjoy your time in cadets. Cadets is play, it is meant for fun, the military is work, its for a living.


----------



## p_imbeault

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> As for those who would like to say that there's no reason for a cadet to have a C7, then look back upon Reserves parading with a C7 for Remembrance Day (for example).


I think the reason reservists parade with the C-7 is they are actually *trained* on it. So again please tell me what is wrong with the Lee Enfields that are usually standard across Canada for cadets?


> That's not a fair comparison.  We have already established that not everyone wants to join the military when they're done cadets, and while I do personally question why they'd be in cadets then, it's not my place to ask.  If they'd like to get a taste of what the army is like, then they should be able to do that without having to sign away all rights for three years, in a chance that they'd totally hate it and regret going into it.


Cadets is not the Military, Cadets give youth a taste of what military life is like, but _it is not_ the military. BTW you don't have to sign up for three years if you join the Reserves (I think you can leave anytime you want, I may be wrong though as the nearest Reserve Unit is 3 1/2 hours away I never looked into it that much)


> No one here is doubting, or saying that we're ungrateful for what the current program offers.  Medals, qualifications, training, trips, and free (or a small cost) for events to attend is an excellent agenda to use.  However, that doesn't mean that it's perfect, or that it couldn't be changed to model another country's cadet program.


If we modeled it after another countries cadet program would it really be Royal *Canadian* Army Cadets?  
I do see where you are comming from though, the CCM could use some minor changes.
Regards,


----------



## Pronto123

Just to change the subject from weapons for a sec. 
I know that this is probably not possible anymore, but I think that it would be possible to raise more interest in the CF and the Cadet program by simply having PRes and the Regs donate thier old OD combats to the Cadet Corps. This would mean that this way more cadets would have combat uniforms (no more Neon Yellow & Purple clothing being spoted trying to learn Bushcraft/Fieldcraft). 
Yes I know that some of the sizes arn't going to be great but hey, I'm sure you can always take it to an Army Surplus store and ask to trade for a different size. Think about it this way, no more civie clothing in the bush, cadets would actualy have 2 uniforms for all situations (3 if counting Regimental Blues). 
Wouldn't it be nice to actualy have all cadets parade and do thier training in the same uniforms?

There are plenty of things that we may think could make cadets "better", but you have to realize that most of those things arn't going to happen because of other reasons. So you have to make the best out of what you have. 
Ask anyone who has been with cadets for a few years, has seen some of the changes and they would tell you that the biggest change that ppl tend not to notice are the CADETS! A few years ago you couldn't tell apart a C/Sgt from a PRes/Reg Sgt, some of these guys were huge and looked like they were in thier late 30s, now, no offence but some of the C/Sgts look like they are 7.


----------



## ryanmann356

I agree, I dont think that cadets using C7s for rifle drill is not a good idea, at least with the .22s Joe Civi can see the fact that there is a big chunk (bolt and mag) of the rifle is missing and thus must be inert.  The C7 (even a rubber one) doesnt look as dangerouse as a .22 with the bolt and mag removed.  If I were a civillian and saw a young kid parading with a C7 I would be slightly worried.  The C7 is for fighting, not for parading, and in any case whats wrong with the .22?  They're great for monkey drill and do the job of a drill rifle well.  The only downside to using a .22 is that it can make your parade gloves dirty.  Leave C7 drill to the regs/reserves.


----------



## Springroll

I do not know what the new program is like(I will know in less than a year) but the old program was awesome!!

Practice drill was done with the Lee Enfield's and drill comp's and parades were done with FN's. 
Field Ex's were basically a weekend of army games while learning new things, like cam and concealment, map and compass etc.
Parade nights(wednesdays) were mixed between lessons and time on the square.
PT nights were just that, nothing but PT every friday night.

By what my sister told me(she was a CI with a cadet corps in Victoria), the new program was implemented because of parental concerns over safety and concern for their children.

This is ARMY cadets after all, it should be run as close to the army way of life as possible, but geared towards adolescents.


----------



## Clément Barbeau Vermet

aspiring officer said:
			
		

> Why? So we can confuse the public even more to the point that they think little cadet private Tommy marching down Yonge street on Santa Claus Parade will get sent to war?
> 
> I think the Lee-Enfields are quite enough. We should be thankful that it hasn't been taken away yet.
> Don't get me wrong, I love rifle drill, but placing real military weapons, tools for KILLING, in hands of children would generate some pretty bad PR.



CF have about 80 000 C7 and the Army (reg and res) is not even 40 000 strong, so I do not think we need to buy some new ones. Cadets could learn to drill with a C7 in their 3rd or 4th ear of instruction. When our Army used Lee Enfeilds, Cadets did not use muskets, as far as I know. I think it is just great if civilians see some 14/15 years old cadets with a C7 because it would help change this wrong popular idea that Canadians have about our armed forces. It would also help to keep a lot of bored cadets in the movement. When I was 10 years old I played some games more violent than the ''WARgames'' I used to play in cadets when I was 14 years old. Now more and more units do not let their cadets play these ''wargames'' because sometimes a little cadets gets a bobo and his/her mother gets angry. It has just gone WAY to far.


----------



## qor556

First off, I have absolutely no problem with cadets. IMHO, what better program to encourage young, eager individuals to join the military while having them do something productive/keep them out of trouble. Even having them gain the basic military knowledge on top of it all (drill, NAV, basic leadership etc.). Having cadets solely use the Enfield's (C7 on controlled ranges) have them wanting more. If you want to use the C7 join the army, simple as that.


----------



## armygurl_557

The Cadet movement as a whole is an amazing program, because other programs like it cost thousands and thousands of dollars to do half the thinsg we do.

I have a problem with individuals in Cadets, mostly parents though. They think of it as a boot camp close to home, and they put their kids in it as a punishment.
I've had cadets come and slack off and cause problems and when they are asked why theyre like " yeah i got arrested last week so my mom put me in this... " or "i failed math so now i'm here".. Like we have had problems where the police have had to be called because things have gotten that out of hand..


----------



## Burrows

Miss Caroline said:
			
		

> Like we have had problems where the police have had to be called because things have gotten that out of hand..


Gotta love the po....lice.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

We cannot and shouldnot compare Canadian cadets to other countries. The attitude of Canadian civillians is far too ignorant towards any sort of "military" organization simply because they dont know better. Look at the thread about the "missile launchers" stopped in Toronto or the reservist seen doing his BFT with a weapon.

 The problem is a lack of information being put out there. I will be helping out a local cadet unit with training starting this week and im sure there will be a few parents asking what a reg force army type is planning on teaching their kids. My first goal will be to have a sit down with the parents and explaining what cadets is and how it will help form their children into productive members of society.

 No, I dont believe cadets should have C7's because knowing how to shoot a modern weapon is not one of the aims of cadets. Getting some basic discipline, learning new things and making good friends is what kids need and what they want. If after they quit cadets they want to be a doctor/lawyer or soldier, they will have had a step up from the average "mall rat" and there are very few ex-cadets out there that dont have good memories from their time spent.


----------



## Pte. Bloggins

Clément Barbeau Vermet said:
			
		

> CF have about 80 000 C7 and the Army (reg and res) is not even 40 000 strong, so I do not think we need to buy some new ones.



Interesting tidbit of info. Did you know that 73.6% of statistics are made up on the spot?



			
				Clément Barbeau Vermet said:
			
		

> It would also help to keep a lot of bored cadets in the movement.



Yeah, I'm sure that's exactly what we should do. "Hey, kid, you bored? There you go, play with this. No, don't point that there." 

 :

Seriously though, what SHELLDRAKE said.


----------



## Kaziklu

you can always check. Canada Bought 80,000 C-7s in 1986. Most Numbers you will find will indicate those C-7s are still in Canada in A1 and A2 configurations, with an additional 2,500 C-8s

Just do a quick web search would produce several items that would back up the number. Particularly an independent military site hosted and partially funded by Simon Fraser University
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/index.htm

Now there are 56,000 Cadet (give or take) I believe 20,000 of those are Army Cadets.. there are about 5,000-10,000 Infantry Trained Soldiers Both reserve and Reg force iirc so transferring a limited number of C-7 Rifles to Corps with the resources to properly store them and have a Reserve or RegF detachment near by (say 35km) as well as Large Bore Qualified RSO on staff.

However I'm sure the fact that not many Corps meet all those requirements, and the risk that comes with the Storage of Automatic Weapons in a Civilian location most likely is the reason why C-7 drill is no longer done at LHQ. Above most others.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

Follow link: 

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21796.0.html


----------



## alan_li_13

Ok, theoretically, they give you C7s. Whats next? You'll ask for grenades. If they give that to u, then you'll want to be issued tac vests an cadpat to hold your stuff. If they gave you that, you will start asking to play with vehicles. If they keep on giving, you will keep on asking. Pretty soon, the cadets will have a bigger arsenal then the rest of the country.

Do you see the point yet?


----------



## Springroll

Are the FN's(7.62) not in use anymore?


----------



## Kaziklu

SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> Follow link:
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21796.0.html



I agree with the thread but as the C-7 was used when I was an Army Cadet in 1995-7 I'm willing to bet that the UN ban isn't the only reason... It might be the reason for the removal of PO404 and the Patrolling course but many units weren't using the C-7 even when it was "ok" In fact the UN Ban on the deployment of Child Soldiers would have no effect on the cadet movement by it's ratification. (all you have to do is look at the Cadet Movement in the UK to realize that) Cadets are not Soldiers, they are not being trained or would they ever be used to fight in anywar before without being in the military and being 18. 

It's a misconception that the UN CRC optional protocol prevents cadets from doing field craft and the such.. It was removed because some pencil pusher some where took it too far (which so often happens in this country at times  )

But like I said the C-7 wasn't really being used at LHQ by the Mid-90s hence me not mentioning the changes to the CRC, Though it's just a rifle I don't understand why people are so upset about not being able to shoot it at a paper target.



			
				ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> That's not even close to realistic.  A C7 would be a "step up" from the Lee Enfield and Daisy Air Rifle.  Is it required?  No.  But it's something to look forward to: "hey, once I can get through my Cadet Leader course, I can do CLI, and get to see what the C7 is like before I get into the Reserves."
> 
> The C7 actually has a realistic position in the Cadet Movement (it's what our Affiliated Units use, and it's something to work for), whereas you'll never need to have a cadet using grenades..



You are not in the military your affiliated unit is. the C-7 is a military weapon. To fire it requires an outdoor range ideally, extra insurance and trained RSOs, It is also an automatic weapon. Canada is not a nations that is going to allow it's children to play (because that is what it is) with automatic military weapons. 
To use it for drill purposes is not really needed as the Slope arms movement is the main difference between Lee Enfield and FN or C-7 Drill. 

Not every Army Cadet corps is affiliated with a infantry unit either. Should the Mech units get to play with C-8s or perhaps a TOW rocket? Mortars perhaps? 

They are not toys. They are weapons designed to kill, they are also very dangerous. They are used at Camp by senior cadets that have shown they have the maturity and have earned the right, while on a Canadian Forces Based to be given familiarization with the C-7 under the supervision of a trained RSO on a DND Range. 

Do you realize that many army cadets do not have a DND range near them? do you realize that many cadet corps have no affiliated unit (though not too many) do you realize that not every Corps as the proper facilities to store them. 

So lets look at the reason to use them
the Forces use them
it would be cool.

and the reasons not to use them
Lack a storage Facilities
increase Insurance needs
increased transportation cost to Ranges 
Lack of trained RSOs
Cadets are not part of the military
Increased Danger to Cadets


----------



## ryanmann356

Thats why there are protocols to ensure safety.  If the cadets use the C7 it is with a large bore RSO, on a huge range with a five round clip.  I dint think were giving some cadets credit.  My corps once did a large bore shoot with a reserve unit about a year ago and only selected the mature gold stars to go.  They're not going to give the immature cadets that aren't trustworthy the chance to go on a shoot.  Giving a 12 year old kid a fully loaded C7 rifle would be stupid.  But I do think that if you show maturity and are a reliable SENIOR cadet, then you get rewarded with doing something you normally wouldn't do IE a large bore shoot.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

I would agree to a system that allowed "senior" cadets to go out with their affiliated unit once a year for a famil shoot but what purpose would you need your own weapons vault for units that compromise mostly of children? Maybee renting the movie TAPS this week might put things back into perspective.


----------



## Dane

SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> I would agree to a system that allowed "senior" cadets to go out with their affiliated unit once a year for a famil shoot but what purpose would you need your own weapons vault for units that compromise mostly of children? Maybee renting the movie TAPS this week might put things back into perspective.



I hope that was a joke. Thats like seeing Hilary Duff's Cadet movie and likening it to the Canadian Cadet Movement.


----------



## p_imbeault

Hilary Duff has a cadet movie? *shakes head* what is the world comming too...


----------



## Michael OLeary

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> Thats why there are protocols to ensure safety.  If the cadets use the C7 it is with a large bore RSO, on a huge range with a five round clip.  I dint think were giving some cadets credit.  My corps once did a large bore shoot with a reserve unit about a year ago and only selected the mature gold stars to go.  They're not going to give the immature cadets that aren't trustworthy the chance to go on a shoot.  Giving a 12 year old kid a fully loaded C7 rifle would be stupid.  But I do think that if you show maturity and are a reliable SENIOR cadet, then you get rewarded with doing something you normally wouldn't do IE a large bore shoot.



Which is what your Army Cadet Leader Instructor Rifle Coach Course does, isn't it?

Since this thread has simply evolved into another aimless discussion of Cadets and shooting, it's being locked.

Complaints about Moderators locking your pet thread may be submitted to the site owner, Mike Bobbitt.

Applications to reopen in order to to post for review your fully staffed draft of a formal proposal to change Cadet shooting regulations may be submitted to the Cadet Forum Moderator.


----------



## RCD_Cadet

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Perhapse a little lesson in the 10 Principles of Leadership would be in order for ALL corps NCOs and CIC officers?
> 
> What about conducting leadership refresher classes to all the staff prior to kicking off the training year?
> 
> Regards



i agree with what has been said but not just befor the trg year but through out the year is what is in order in my mind


----------



## Franko

RCD_Cadet said:
			
		

> i agree with what has been said but not just befor the trg year but through out the year is what is in order in my mind



Hmmm...perhaps bringing that up during our end of training night O Groups may be in order?

Next time we have one, bring it up.      

I'm sure that there are plenty of pers in the corps that are thinking the same as you are, just a bit on the shy side.

We can only implement what you suggest....if you want more professional development in this regard, we'll do it!

Regards


----------



## Bergeron 971

Geez there is alot to read. I stopped reading at page 2.
Here is what I think. 
The army cadets is indeed lacking the ARMY experience.
BUT.. Why does everyone always think ARMY = Combat skills? Last I saw, the army has, Logistics, Communications, Medial, Administration, Mechanics, Infantry, Armoured, Intelligence, Religion, Gun Tech, Finance, .... Hell i could go to the CF recruit website and post all the trades here.
I left the CCM for about 6 years after aging out before returning as a CI. And I was greatly disappointed in seeing Fieldcraft and communications, CLI-QM gone. They where the last ARMY things. Army cadets have become more like scouts. My theory on this is that the higher ups thing they will attract more youths to the program. I think that in fact by moving away from the military aspect, they will end up in the dismantle of Army cadets. What happens when you cut the roots of a tree? The tree dies. In this I mean. Tradition, history. As a Jcdt and a SNCO and now as an adult, I felt the Lee Enfield was a great way to connect to the veterans of the CF, The history. the drill for tradition. Swords? most cdts that would be holding swords would be SNCOs anyway am I not right? I have MWO and CWOs that get appointments not knowing how to carry a pace stick, not to mention how to use it. In the day I was told there where Scuba summer course, Driving courses where cadets would achieve civi driving permits upon completeion. just to name a few.
I have been told that MANY cdts not earning the PASS on summer courses to be passed anyway. And summer training camps turning into summer day care camps. My cdts this year said that the course cadets where free for all and the staff where ordered to do nothing as it was not a military camp, it was a summer camp.

I know lots of cdts and former cdts have stories of exchanges.... Drink fests, tourest sessions... Sneaking off camp to go to the local pubs. Where is the military in that, the discipline, the tradition ..... and so on?

I agree that the army cadets have lacked on the aspire interest in the CF. 
ARMY in army cadets does not have to be generally COMBAT skills. We have many different types of youth joining the cadet movement. not all want to be Airborne commandos. But some do. We should give them more choice in summer training courses. some want it more military, some may be musicans, or the admin type. But there should be something for everyone.

As for SNCOs rushing into CIC or even CI hood. I am a strong believer of Life experience. Those young adults aging out of the CCM and rushing into CIC or CI hood is not generally good in my opinion. Some could handle it however they lack real life experience. I have grown up alot in my 6 years out of the CCM. Some would only act as SCdts. and not teach and advise. We're there to teach and show them the ropes, not to keep the ropes and pull on them our selves.

As for CIC. this is a difficult subject because I believe that once you are a CIC "YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE CF" and should follow the standards. What I would think, is begin a CI association, where CIC prospect would have to be a member of, kind of like NCOs. Admins and QMs are not run by Reg or Res NCOs? They should not be pushed into a direct leadership posts. unless some have life experiences such as military or cadet training. They should be given time to learn the CF and the CCM, a weekend crash course is not enough.

Humm. Well I donno what else to say. I'm tired due to medication for an infection.

Cheers everyone


----------



## ryanmann356

I would put more rifle work in the cadet movement.  Put the army back into army cadets.  Improve the CIC training courses to be more closely related to actual military training.  Then again you always need to take into account costs, personnel etc.  But shooting a daisy air rifle piece of junk doesnt count as marksmanship in my books.


----------



## Franko

Cadet Warrant-Mann said:
			
		

> But shooting a daisy air rifle piece of junk doesnt count as marksmanship in my books.



No, it doesn't in mine either.

However, to play devils advocate, it is cheaper and easier than booking a range, arranging for range staff and getting ammo and targets alloted to the corps wouldn't you agree?

Using the pellet rifle is a great way to teach the basic principals of marksmanship prior to getting the cadets out and waste bullets and manpower because they can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Regards


----------



## ryanmann356

true i agree with you, however that was sort of based on a corps with a large budget lol


----------



## rwgill

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> However, to play devils advocate, it is cheaper and easier than booking a range, arranging for range staff and getting ammo and targets alloted to the corps wouldn't you agree?
> 
> Using the pellet rifle is a great way to teach the basic principals of marksmanship prior to getting the cadets out and waste bullets and manpower because they can't hit the broad side of a barn.



You hit the nail on the head.  These are two of the reasons the switch to air rifles was made.  

A range can be made in a Legion Hall, school gym, back yard.  Air Rifles can be easily stored at the LHQ.  Many younger cadets (12-13) also complained about the weight of the Lee-Enfield.  They also complained about the kick to the 303 and the C1.


----------



## ryanmann356

Piper said:
			
		

> I think the cadet system is doing 'ok' right now. I came out of it better for having done it.



I completely agree with you
this thread was called "what must be fixed in cadets in your opinion"  That was my opinion However i think that larger bore shoots should be done with seniors only.  Even if they had the money and the equiptment and the location etc, 12-14 year old kids should not fire the large rifles.  I simply wouldn't trust them.  Start them off with the small .22s or yes the daisy


----------



## RCD_Cadet

something i find oh so annoying is when a cadet same rank thinks he is all that
in my opinion we should work as a team instead of fighting because that is what cadets is about learning to work as a team

suggestions/comments/ideas


----------



## Michael OLeary

RCD_Cadet said:
			
		

> something i find oh so annoying is when a cadet same rank thinks he is all that
> in my opinion we should work as a team instead of fighting because that is what cadets is about learning to work as a team
> 
> suggestions/comments/ideas



Just a suggestion: Punctuation, capitalization and grammar do count.  Practicing them here is free, having to do it when you're in a job that requires it truly sucks.

By the way, spelling counts too:



> Pain Is Weakeness Leaveing your Body (So Suck It Up)



Good prose is evidence of a glimmer of intelligence leaving your mind. (So suck it up.)


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## disgruntledguppy

Wow, you guys all make some pretty general statements about what needs to be fixed :

Everything, all CIC officers, all the leaders, all the followers there is not enough army in army cadets

Maybe what needs to happen is that all partners in the cadet system need to talk to each other rationally and honestly.

How many cadets have left the system NEVER having told any one how to make it better?

How many officers NEVER listen to cadets when they do try to make suggestions?

How many cadets make statements like "everything is wrong and this system sucks" without offering ways to fix things?

I must be really lucky, my corps has issues sure BUT my officers listen to cadets and their suggestions for change.

We do night navs on exercises, have tons of range weekends, and do all kinds of army stuff both on our training nights and on our exercises.

Only one of my officers has any real military training (he was a reserve guy for a couple of years) but the other officers have been in the CIC for years now and have trained, looked for help from soldiers in the regs and reserves and I bet you would not be able to tell which officer is which if you spent time with them.

I know there are issues with the system but sweeping statements and removing ALLCIC officers who have no military background doesn't seem like an answer to me.


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## rwgill

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Alright, Ive been doing a lot of talking, answering questions and the like. So I‘m asking the big question"What has to be fixed in the cadet movement?" I want to hear your thoughts on what you‘d like to see in cadets. What needs to change, what should be left alone etc...
> 
> If YOU had the power....what would you do?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Franko



Well I have virtually read the entire thread.  I have attempted to absorb most of it and reflect.  I took those points and attempted to verify and/or dismiss them.  Here is what I would change:

*1.  Communication:*  Orders are passed on without using basic Task Procedure.  The 5 w's are not always answered which allows subordinate commanders to input there own _flavour_.  This contributes to a huge difference in how the cadet units operate and train across the country.  

Case in point:  The CATOs mention nothing about banning "war-games" or tactics.  To the contrary, only one CATO remotely addresses this (11-33) and makes reference to:  weapons legislation, not training cadets to a specific standard, and the RCO must ensure it is safe.  The RCO issues the order which basically says no (CRCO 1803).

Case in point:  Cam and Concealment is no longer taught to cadets, nor is it permitted.  Cam and Concealment is an event at Central Region's Army Cadet Challenge.  How can I compete at something that I cannot do? 

Suggestion:  The CATOs should be rules and not guides (as sometimes applied).  The Regional Orders should be looked at, used to augment the CATOs, then scrapped.  RCOs should only be permitted to write orders if there are conflicts between the CATOs and provincial legislation.  Regions should also be re-drawn IAW provincial boundaries.  (presently Ottawa area Air Cadets fall under Eastern Region while Army and Sea are Central).

*2.  Public Affairs:*  Presently, rather then stating and defending the policies and aims of the CCM, we have been covering up what we do, while using politically correct terms.

Case in Point:  Army Cadet Challenge is the exact same competition as Skill-At-Arms, yet Army Cadet Challenge seems friendly.  The intent was to civilize the Army Cadets, the impact was the demilitarization of Army Cadets.

Case in Point:  Colour Parties (if only in name) are no longer permitted as _colours_ were used in battles.  Cadets now carry _flags_, meant to symbolize tradition, yet distance itself from battle.  Though theoretically, this is correct, just uttering the word _colour_ gets some people bent out of shape.

Case in Point:  The CLI Patrolling Course and CLI Adventure Course are virtually identical.  The name changed to CLI Adventure to make it friendlier.  The badge has not changed either.  Though it is no longer a bayonet and axe, it is now a camping knife and hatchet.

Case in Point:  Shooting Competitions in some Regions no longer exist, they are now Marksmanship Competitions.  Cadets no longer are taught how to shoot, they are taught the art of marksmanship.  Shooting, an Olympic sporting event, called shooting, and cadets cannot do it?!?  While biathlon, also originally a military sport, is flaunted as a cadet success?!?

Suggestion:  Cut the BS.....................................The intent was to make cadets friendly, but a simple thing like an activities name, makes the difference to cadets (the client of the CCM).

*3.  The Aims:*  Currently we have:  stimulate interest in the CF, promote citizenship, promote physical fitness.  The aims are very vague!

Case in Point:  Cadets must only participate in the Physical Fitness Test.  Attempting a push up is good enough.

Case in Point:  There is only one period of instruction to Green Stars which promotes physical fitness.  There are 18 for drill.

Case in Point:  Cadets on many activities are not permitted to wear operational clothing (combats, NCDs), while opting for cadet PT gear.  How do you wish to stimulate interest while wearing a grey t-shirt?

Case in Point:  The rules regarding cadets is so limiting, that the CCM does very little to stimulate a true interest.  Cadets is extremely far from the truth (WRT the CF).  We do have the pomp and ceremony, which we must continually doctor according to Regional Orders.

Case in Point:  Leadership and Methods of Instruction are the heart of the CCM.  In about five years, a kid goes from follower/student to leader/teacher.  The program is supervised by CIC staff, but the entire program rests in the hands of the young adults.  Neither leadership or MofI are aims.

Suggestion:  

Changes the aims to:  promote physical fitness, promote good leadership, promote good citizenship, prepare youth for a career in the Canadian Forces.  (more in line with the UK and Australia)

I would also dispence with the current safari uniforms designed in the 70's.  I would switch to a more operational uniform, which would differ between the elements.  

Sea Cadets would parade in more of a NCD type uniform.  The Navy's sailing uniform is NCD, so why should Sea Cadets not use the same type of uniform?  Sailing is the Sea Cadet Programs most important part of training.  

Air Cadets would parade in flight suits.  Air Cadet aspire to fly, so this would only be appropriate.

Army Cadets would wear a more versatile uniform, like the UK's Army Cadet Force.  A General Purpose (parade & field) uniform, like combats.  I rarely see a Reg F or P Res member in anything but combats now. 

Finally, I would redesign the level courses to push cadets more towards experiencing, to a point, what life in the CF is like.  While troops deployed do not always have the luxury of showers, or even a hot meal, cadets are sitting around a camp fire singing songs and roasting marshmellows................

*Note:*  For those who wish to ask, these are my personal opinions, and I have directed them up my chain of command.  Some of the points I have mentioned are being addressed at the National level, as well as some of the points others here have mentioned.  Not because of me, but because of forums like army.ca and people like you.  These are people who care about cadets.  I first joined the world of cadets in 1987, as a cadet.  I have been a CIC officer and today, as a civilian, continue to help out.


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## Buschgirl427

The CHAP programs definately needs to go. Too many Cadets are abusing it to the point where the NCO's are scared to use a firm voice with an out-of-line cadet. With that said, I was actually dissapointed with the "Army" part of army cadets when I first joined. I thought it would be waaay more hardcore then it is. I'm still in the program, but watching the generation change has really made me see the "youth group" aspect more than the "Cadet" aspect.  the Cadets who are joining the program now have no rexpect for authority figures, or anyone older than them for that matter. If we were able to enstill some discipline into the cadets (ie extra drill over the break period for slacking off on the parade square during a lesson), they will learn.


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## Neill McKay

Buschgirl427 said:
			
		

> The CHAP programs definately needs to go. Too many Cadets are abusing it to the point where the NCO's are scared to use a firm voice with an out-of-line cadet.



I've been working in the cadet programme for seven years (and much of that as a UHRA) and I've never seen that situation.  It may be a problem in some units because of a poor implementation of the CHAP programme, but it's certainly not universal.



> If we were able to enstill some discipline into the cadets (ie extra drill over the break period for slacking off on the parade square during a lesson), they will learn.



We are able to do exactly that, and I've seen it done many times.


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## Bergeron 971

first thing the ARMY cadets highers need to do, is ditch the new fabric they use for the Army cadet uniforms. That nylon/shinny fabric Sucks. But the Air cadets have the real fabric.

If the Army cadets ditched the present uniform I would most likely lose interest in the program at the stray that broke my camel back.
I think that the CF should GIVE the old OD combats to the Cadet movement. and the cadet movement adopt the only CF standards for that dress. Could be used for extra training, FTXs etc.

Another thing I personally do not like, Is the CIC's wearing Cadpat's while the cadets are told to wear dress uniforms.
What I would do is, ONCE a month, the CIC's "AND" cadets would wear Combats/cadpats for CIC, cause the CF would have given the OD combats to the cdts.

MANY CIC would complain, We have lives, careers etc, and no time to shine boots etc. Well sorry but it should be part of the dedication to the system, remember Lead by example? Telling a cdt his or her uniform is no up to standard when your wearing relish? not right in my eyes. 

End of rant


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## Neill McKay

Bergeron 971 said:
			
		

> first thing the ARMY cadets highers need to do, is ditch the new fabric they use for the Army cadet uniforms. That nylon/shinny fabric Sucks. But the Air cadets have the real fabric.



I'm almost certain it's exactly the same fabric.  It changed a few years ago, though.  Maybe you're looking at a new army cadet uniform and an old air cadet uniform, or vice-versa?



> MANY CIC would complain, We have lives, careers etc, and no time to shine boots etc. Well sorry but it should be part of the dedication to the system, remember Lead by example? Telling a cdt his or her uniform is no up to standard when your wearing relish? not right in my eyes.



Many would complain?  I doubt that.  The vast majority of us wear DEU as our normal dress of the day, and as far as I know most or all of the rest are supposed to (depending perhaps on regional orders).  I think the whiners, if any, would be a small minority.


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## Bergeron 971

na, I mean the old fabric used to build the army cadet uniform was the same as teh old duty dress of the army. now army cadet uniform is like thin plastic nylon. 
I work in the CC QM. and I have old uniforms. and teh new stuff is junk. the fabric doesn't last worth a damb. and its darker green, almost looks black in some light, compaired to the old uniforms, they faided just like the real uniforms. hahaha,


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## vendetta

iam probably repeating other ppl but i have been thinking alot as a SGT in the Air Cadets

#1 thing for me is how were turning into boy scouts, we have to go back to the more military ways of the old days and CHAP is holding us back a little. i joined cadets hearing storys of war games and how it was the closest thing to the military i could get to at my age so i joined, i get in and iam stuck being promoted every year (not complaining about me being promoted) without any challenge as some of the most incompetent ppl are promoted.
#2 we are not aloud to play any war games due to the risk of a cadet being hurt (why are we tought first aid then) on my campouts we can't even play games in the bush with running.

o and for the plastic materials that melt when u iron them, it's coasting alot of $$$ to get new unifourms when they go shinny

well that it for now... vendetta


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## 1feral1

Bergeron 971 said:
			
		

> Another thing I personally do not like, Is the CIC's wearing Cadpat's while the cadets are told to wear dress uniforms.
> What I would do is, ONCE a month, the CIC's "AND" cadets would wear Combats/cadpats for CIC, cause the CF would have given the OD combats to the cdts.
> 
> MANY CIC would complain, We have lives, careers etc, and no time to shine boots etc. Well sorry but it should be part of the dedication to the system, remember Lead by example? Telling a cdt his or her uniform is no up to standard when your wearing relish? not right in my eyes.
> 
> End of rant



Don't get me wrong, but whats the beef with CADPAT? As for Cadet uniforms, what wrong spending a bit of time with an iron a nd some boot polish? There is more cadet life than the LCF. The only times cadets should wear combats is on certain/specific exercises and during summer camps when required. 

Having CIC officers (who do have a CF commission), and not allowing them to wear the current CF uniform is just plain ridiculous. Either you are or are not a member of the CF. Do not CIC have CF Greens? At least they did when I left the CF in January 1995. So there's your iron and boot polish. I disagree with your opinion that many CIC would complain about polishing boots. Any that do so, and whinge to cadets about it should not be there in the first place.

My two cents,


Wes

Wes


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## condor888000

vendetta said:
			
		

> #1 thing for me is how were turning into boy scouts, we have to go back to the more military ways of the old days and CHAP is holding us back a little.


No one who is currently a cadet was in pre-CHAP. I was the second or third year it was implemented, and I'm nearly 19, so sorry, but thats a cop out. CHAP is not what is wrong, CHAP has not caused the problems. 


			
				vendetta said:
			
		

> i joined cadets hearing storys of war games and how it was the closest thing to the military i could get to at my age so i joined, i get in and iam stuck being promoted every year (not complaining about me being promoted) without any challenge as some of the most incompetent ppl are promoted.


Your opinion. Obviously not your officers. As the officers are generally much more experienced, I think I'd trust them. I was in the same spot, and looking back, the officers did do the right thing. Just keep that in mind.


			
				vendetta said:
			
		

> #2 we are not aloud to play any war games due to the risk of a cadet being hurt (why are we tought first aid then) on my campouts we can't even play games in the bush with running.


It takes a fool to run in the bush. I'm sorry, but having 50 screaming 12 year olds sprinting through the woods is an insunce disaster waiting to happen. Its common sense, and remember, if a cadet gets hurt, the movement is liable. As such, they try to minimize risk to protect themselves. Not remove risk, just limit it. Which, is very smart when you get down to it, last thing we need is a bunch of large insurance payouts and increased premiums for the movement.


			
				vendetta said:
			
		

> o and for the plastic materials that melt when u iron them, it's coasting alot of $$$ to get new unifourms when they go shinny


...

PRESSING CLOTH. Removes the chance of melting.


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## Scott

vendetta,

Please familiarize yourself with the Army.ca Conduct Guidelines, specifically the parts about Spelling, Grammar and MSN speak. As well, take some time to read the Cadet Forum Guidelines and the Dead End Topics. It should serve to enlighten you a bit to the things that have beaten to death here.

Thank you.

Scott
Army.ca Staff


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## ryanmann356

Buschgirl427 said:
			
		

> The CHAP programs definately needs to go. Too many Cadets are abusing it to the point where the NCO's are scared to use a firm voice with an out-of-line cadet.



I agree, however i believe that some kind of preventative measures should be set up in order to keep the non coms in line and not abuse their power.  Chap is too much, nothing is too little, they need to find a happy medium.  Or maybe even teach it in a way so that there is a set standard to adhere to.  Some corps (and I experienced this while staffing in Vernon) teach their kids that they can call out "CHAPP" for anything that they feel is pushing them to achieve new levels or outside of their comfort level.  Are we going to have people trying to chapp the LD&C staff for making them do the confidence course?

PS I know CHAPP isnt a verb but whatever...


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## GGHG_Cadet

I have never ever had a problem with CHAP, and at camp I cannot recall a real CHAP case. 

The reason people seem to have problems with it is because it is not implemented properly at the corps level. When being taught CHAP the cadets need to know that there is a difference between Harrassment/Abuse and Discipline, then you must establish what is proper discipline and what is discipline gone too far. CHAP should not interfere with day to day LHQ or CSTC activities unless there is a serious problem. As long as NCOs remember(and use) the Qualities of a Leader and the Principles of Leadership in their leadership there will not be a problem.


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## Neill McKay

Cadet Warrant-Mann said:
			
		

> Some corps (and I experienced this while staffing in Vernon) teach their kids that they can call out "CHAPP" for anything that they feel is pushing them to achieve new levels or outside of their comfort level.



Any UHRA who teaches that is not doing his or her job correctly.


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## wannabe SF member

vendetta said:
			
		

> o and for the plastic materials that melt when u iron them, it's coasting alot of $$$ to get new unifourms when they go shinny



Iron your uniform with a wet linge on it, it will keep it from burning or going shiny


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## wannabe SF member

Definitely the uniform fabric and i would go back to the old cadets, implement just a bit more physical training and put more emphasis on the CF.


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## timma

I am in air cadets and all of the stuff vendetta said is true.at camp we were treated like babies.we did no activity if it got too hot , we didn't run at all. I think we should put the cadet back into cadet.Dress standards are pitifull , and the majority of the cadets have no respect. lets make cadets fun again. screw this safety crap and let cadets take risks.none of this 'no wargames' and 'it's not shooting , it's marksmanship' stuff. enough raving for now


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## Michael OLeary

timma said:
			
		

> I am in air cadets and all of the stuff vendetta said is true.at camp we were treated like babies.we did no activity if it got too hot , we didn't run at all. I think we should put the cadet back into cadet.Dress standards are pitifull , and the majority of the cadets have no respect. lets make cadets fun again. screw this safety crap and let cadets take risks.none of this 'no wargames' and 'it's not shooting , it's marksmanship' stuff. enough raving for now



Yes, enough raving for now.  Please see the bottom part of this post before you start again: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21472.0.html


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## Big Foot

timma said:
			
		

> screw this safety crap


That is, without doubt, the most brilliant thing i've heard all day  :


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## aesop081

Whats that smell ?

.....must be a dogpile brewing.....


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## Yrys

Big Foot said:
			
		

> the most brilliant thing i've heard all day  :



You must have a short day : ) .


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## Michael OLeary

Temporarily locked, this thread will be cleaned and reopened later.


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