# Alert, Warning order to follow Toronto deputy mayor thinking of asking for troop



## FormerHorseGuard (3 Jan 2014)

Cannot believe anyone in the mayors office or in the city government would want to go on the record and even think this out loud and not remember the jokes last time the troops were called out to Toronto.

http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/deputy-mayor-mulls-calling-in-army-to-help-with-toronto-storm-cleanup-1.1616344
CTVNews.ca Staff 
Published Friday, January 3, 2014 9:52AM EST 
Last Updated Friday, January 3, 2014 10:39AM EST
Toronto’s deputy mayor is considering calling in the army to help with the ice storm cleanup.
Norm Kelly, who has extra powers after city council stripped Mayor Rob Ford of some of his authority, said he decided to explore the option after learning that clearing the thousands of fallen tree limbs would take as long as 6 to 8 weeks.
Kelly made a few phone calls on Thursday to find out more about the possibility of calling in members of the military, despite the risk of being criticized or mocked, he told Newstalk 1010 on Friday morning.
“Everything is exploratory right now,” Kelly told the radio station. Any request for military help would have to go through the province.
At a news conference on Thursday, city officials confirmed the cleanup will take 6-8 weeks and will cost the city more than $75 million.
Ford has faced questions about his decision not to call a state of emergency after the ice storm left thousands without power. A declaration of a state of emergency would have transferred the responsibility for overseeing the ice storm response to the deputy mayor.
Some 15 years after winter storms covered the city under more than a metre of snow, former mayor Mel Lastman’s decision to call in the army in 1999 to battle a snowstorm continues to be recounted with ridicule and laughter.
At its height, the December, 2013 ice storm knocked out power to some 300,000 customers across Toronto, affecting approximately 750,000 people.


Read more: http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/deputy-mayor-mulls-calling-in-army-to-help-with-toronto-storm-cleanup-1.1616344#ixzz2pLtH9gyB


 http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/deputy-mayor-mulls-calling-in-army-to-help-with-toronto-storm-cleanup-1.1616344#ixzz2pLs9urj6


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## Bluebulldog (3 Jan 2014)

A bit more of a process than just "calling in the troops"

Toronto would have to declare a State of Emergency, thus allowing EMO ( Emergency Management Ontario) to effectively take control. EMO would then need to determine viability of using Federal Agencies ( DND) and the costs associated with bringing in CF personnel and materiel. 

Since most folks have heat and hydro now, and aside from lots of wood lying around, things are relatively back to normal....I'm guessing this wont happen.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Jan 2014)

Don't they have a "homeless" problem??  Maybe they could pay some of them??

Oops, forgot, most of those folks only exist on paper,.......and taxes.


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## Edward Campbell (3 Jan 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Don't they have a "homeless" problem??  Maybe they could pay some of them??
> 
> Oops, forgot, most of those folks only exist on paper,.......and taxes.




Like this, Bruce?  :nod:


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## OldTanker (3 Jan 2014)

Has there really been an alert and Warning Order issued? The heading seems to indicate this.


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## Journeyman (3 Jan 2014)

OldTanker said:
			
		

> Has there really been an alert and Warning Order issued? The heading seems to indicate this.


What I took from the headline is that someone in the Mayoral office was _thinking_; apparently that was deemed newsworthy  :dunno:


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## PMedMoe (3 Jan 2014)

OldTanker said:
			
		

> Has there really been an alert and Warning Order issued? The heading seems to indicate this.





			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> What I took from the headline is that someone in the Mayoral office was _thinking_; apparently that was deemed newsworthy  :dunno:



What I took from the headlines was that the deputy mayor was merely mulling over the idea.  The thread title is not the headline.   

A better news story would be the abysmal administration (or the lack of admin) that went into the distribution of food gift cards for people affected by the power outage.


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## Journeyman (3 Jan 2014)

Well I could point out that thinking and mulling are synonyms, but now that you're a Toronto person, the number of syllables would just be baffling   :nana:


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## PMedMoe (3 Jan 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Well I could point out that thinking and mulling are synonyms, but now that you're a Toronto person, the number of syllables would just be baffling   :nana:



 :blotto:


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## Danjanou (3 Jan 2014)

The Deputy Mayor is back from Florida? Crisis must be over then  8)


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## my72jeep (3 Jan 2014)

I spent from Dec 26th till Jan 2nd on a line crew and a side walk crew clearing trees and brush. The big work is done now. Its the blocked side walks and hangers that can fall and take out a line or a person that we are still working on 6 days a week.


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## Bluebulldog (3 Jan 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> A better news story would be the abysmal administration (or the lack of admin) that went into the distribution of food gift cards for people affected by the power outage.



Am I the only one who saw the Provincial Govt scrambling to make that particular piece a postitive, and thought.....gee...powers out, fridge isn't working........how about we just put the food on the porch / balcony.....


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## PMedMoe (3 Jan 2014)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who saw the Provincial Govt scrambling to make that particular piece a postitive, and thought.....gee...powers out, fridge isn't working........how about we just put the food on the porch / balcony.....



That and most insurance policies will cover it.  

People only had to show proof of residence and somehow prove how many people they had in their family ($50 for singles, $100 for families).  

Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I'll bet there were lots of people getting cards who didn't really need them or hadn't lost food at all.    :dunno:


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## Armymedic (3 Jan 2014)

What I find disturbing is the prevalence of the thought that Canada sends it military overseas to help clean up after disasters, why can they not do that here at home.

That and the food card boondoggle....

Edit to add- there has been discussion about "calling in the army" since the 27th.


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## Bluebulldog (3 Jan 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I'll bet there were lots of people getting cards who didn't really need them or hadn't lost food at all.    :dunno:



.....or like the guy on CBC radio who said he lost $240 in groceries. I manage social housing in my neck of the woods......I have yet to see anyone on assistance have that amount of food in their fridge.....unless they include the beer and the carton of smokes.....but I'm pretty sure those don't spoil.


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## PMedMoe (3 Jan 2014)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> .....or like the guy on CBC radio who said he lost $240 in groceries.



Well, it did happen just before Christmas.


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## Bluebulldog (3 Jan 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well, it did happen just before Christmas.



Fair enough...might be legit.


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## cupper (3 Jan 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> What I took from the headline is that someone in the Mayoral office was _thinking_; apparently that was deemed newsworthy  :dunno:



The fact that he was thinking was newsworthy. 

Any politician showing signs of brain activity is newsworthy, regardless of the actual value of said activity. ;D


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Jan 2014)

Bluebulldog said:
			
		

> A bit more of a process than just "calling in the troops"
> 
> Toronto would have to declare a State of Emergency, thus allowing EMO ( Emergency Management Ontario) to effectively take control. EMO would then need to determine viability of using Federal Agencies ( DND) and the costs associated with bringing in CF personnel and materiel.
> 
> Since most folks have heat and hydro now, and aside from lots of wood lying around, things are relatively back to normal....I'm guessing this wont happen.



Not sure where I read it, but it was recently and because of this storm. 

IIRC, Toronto, because of it's size or whatever, has a special clause that allows them to bypass the province and deal direct with the feds.

Pretty sure that's what I read anyway.


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## Infanteer (3 Jan 2014)

Sorry Deputy Mayor, but the Army is not cheap labour for street cleaning.  I'd have to dig around a I forget the legislation related with deploying soldiers on Canadian soil, but I don't think this would pass muster; the DND rightfully told St Jean "no" when they asked soldiers to stay and pick up a mess.


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## my72jeep (3 Jan 2014)

We had Torontonians coming out and giving us hot snacks, cookies, chocolates and LCBO gift cards as we cleared lines and sidewalks, we were working a night shift in Toronto and a day shift in Markham


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## Danjanou (3 Jan 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Not sure where I read it, but it was recently and because of this storm.
> 
> IIRC, Toronto, because of it's size or whatever, has a special clause that allows them to bypass the province and deal direct with the feds.
> 
> Pretty sure that's what I read anyway.



Not sure re that I thought is was more of a case of the then Mayor, Mel, calling the former Mayor then Minister of Defence Art on the old boys network and circumnavigating the process.


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Jan 2014)

I can see calling the army out to rescue people and bring them to shelter, the rest well.....


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## my72jeep (3 Jan 2014)

As a person that has spent the last week there doing Clean up the Army is not required. Any way how many chain saws and wood chippers are in the army Supply chain?


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Jan 2014)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Not sure re that I thought is was more of a case of the then Mayor, Mel, calling the former Mayor then Minister of Defence Art on the old boys network and circumnavigating the process.



That wasn't it.


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## dapaterson (3 Jan 2014)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Sorry Deputy Mayor, but the Army is not cheap labour for street cleaning.  I'd have to dig around a I forget the legislation related with deploying soldiers on Canadian soil, but I don't think this would pass muster; the DND rightfully told St Jean "no" when they asked soldiers to stay and pick up a mess.



NDA: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/FullText.html

Emergencies Act: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-4.5/FullText.html

Federal Emergency Response Plan: http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/mrgnc-rspns-pln/index-eng.aspx


Relevant portion of the NDA:


Public Service

Marginal noteublic service

273.6 (1) Subject to subsection (2), the Governor in Council or the Minister may authorize the Canadian Forces to perform any duty involving public service.

Marginal note:Law enforcement assistance

(2) The Governor in Council, or the Minister on the request of the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness or any other Minister, may issue directions authorizing the Canadian Forces to provide assistance in respect of any law enforcement matter if the Governor in Council or the Minister, as the case may be, considers that
(a) the assistance is in the national interest; and
(b) the matter cannot be effectively dealt with except with the assistance of the Canadian Forces.

Marginal note:Exception

(3) Subsection (2) does not apply in respect of assistance that is of a minor nature and limited to logistical, technical or administrative support.

Marginal note:Restriction

(4) The authority of the Minister under this section is subject to any directions issued by the Governor in Council.
1998, c. 35, s. 87; 2005, c. 10, s. 34.


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## pbi (3 Jan 2014)

Calling in the Army would have had about as much value as it did last time: probably less. 

Now, calling in the Province: that is a different story, and much more likely to provide access to the tools and skill sets that were needed to get power flowing again, clear trees and poles, and get traffic moving safely.

Defaulting to "calling in the Army" is a knee jerk. Although I am not known for my high opinion of His Worship, I have to say that he made the right call. 

Or didn't make the wrong call. Or something.


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## Robert0288 (4 Jan 2014)

I guarantee there will not be an RFA (request for assistance) going to DND as of time of this post.  Everything that is left to do can easily be handled by the city (eventually).  At it's worst period during the blackout no one was considering making the request to call the army in, and even EMO Ontario wasn't fully activated from my understanding.  If anyone really got smacked hard from this storm it was NB.  It's just that the people who live in Toronto aren't prepared, and generally lack common sense in a situation where they don't have power.




> Any way how many chain saws and wood chippers are in the army Supply chain


I don't know about supply side.  But how many people are actually chain saw qualified :


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## Kat Stevens (4 Jan 2014)

Every QL3 Sapper in the army.


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## Journeyman (4 Jan 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Every QL3 Sapper in the army.


....plus all the Infantry Pioneers.......oh, nevermind    :not-again:


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## BorisK (4 Jan 2014)

CP24 Bulletin item on the televisions playing at the TTC subway station this morning :

'Deputy mayor says Military likely needed for cleanup of fallen tree's.'

Twisted his words fast eh?


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## OldSolduer (4 Jan 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ....plus all the Infantry Pioneers.......oh, nevermind    :not-again:



You had to say it.....  :-[


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## Zoomie (4 Jan 2014)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> but the Army is not cheap labour for street cleaning.


The precedence has already been set quite a few times already.  

Quebec/Ontario Ice Storm - picking up tree branches.

Toronto Snow Storm - shoveling sidewalks and porches.

Still waiting for my medal...


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## Franko (4 Jan 2014)

I don't know what other units were doing during the ice storm in 98, but I know we were doing a lot more than clearing branches.

From evacuating people, to having crews go from house to house with generators so people could have heat at least once a day to saving people's houses due to the ice buildup and it almost collapsing their roofs.

Then there were the carbon monoxide victims that we found.

Then of course, clearing roads that looked more like abatees so hydro crews could get through to do repairs. Of course no one was qualified chain saw, but courses were run on the fly as soon as we hit the ground and then it was all OJT.

Sorry, but I don't think Toronto comes close to the ice storm of 98. People were in the cold for at least two weeks to well over a month in the Montreal area. Toronto was out for a little over a week. Hell, New Brunswick was hit harder and only had total power restoration a couple days ago. A week and a half and guess what....no food issues. Guess people could figure out that it's cold outside they can use it to act as a fridge.


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## Navy_Pete (4 Jan 2014)

From the story I read on CBC, the deputy mayor was looking at this Dec 22nd, which was when it may have possibly maybe made some kind of sense, if they could justify the state of emergency to call in outside help (CAF, province, etc).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rob-ford-deputy-at-odds-over-seeking-army-help-for-storm-cleanup-1.2483018



> (except from link)
> ...
> "We are getting ready to ask the mayor to declare this an emergency largely because it will assist the staff at the province to make resources available to us, crews, generators, facilities for warming centres," he wrote in a letter dated *Dec. 22*, at 5:02 p.m. That was less than 24 hours after the storm caused a loss of electricity to a substantial number of Toronto Hydro customers.



That part made sense in that context.  The rest seems like the media making a story.


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## my72jeep (4 Jan 2014)

Nerf herder said:
			
		

> I don't know what other units were doing during the ice storm in 98, but I know we were doing a lot more than clearing branches.
> 
> From evacuating people, to having crews go from house to house with generators so people could have heat at least once a day to saving people's houses due to the ice buildup and it almost collapsing their roofs.
> 
> ...



Like I said a page back I've been there since the 26th Dec 2013 The Army is not needed. What is needed is Bucket trucks and guys trained to work trees.
Nuf said.


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## s2184 (4 Jan 2014)

I don't want to see another power outage for a week. Power was restored for us just before New Year & I cannot image if we get another outage within 10 days.  

Even, with the best abilities of the army & its presence how soon the situation could be back to normal once the nature just goes crazy?


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## daftandbarmy (4 Jan 2014)

Send Mayor Ford 3 days worth of clam chowder IMPs. He'll think twice about asking for our help  ;D


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## FormerHorseGuard (4 Jan 2014)

Mayor Ford, cannot ask for anything or any help, because he was stripped of his powers as mayor. It is the Deputy Mayor is thinking that the army is the answer


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## PuckChaser (5 Jan 2014)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rob-ford-deputy-at-odds-over-seeking-army-help-for-storm-cleanup-1.2483018

Seems that the only common sense guy is the one they voted all the powers away from.


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## s2184 (5 Jan 2014)

I also voted for Rob Ford in 2010. I thought he was the best candidate at that time. When you compare him with David Miller as who is the best (or the worst) mayor of Toronto, you will get public opinions that...  ;D


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## Retired AF Guy (5 Jan 2014)

s2184 said:
			
		

> I don't want to see another power outage for a week. Power was restored for us just before New Year & I cannot image if we get another outage within 10 days.



If you live in southern Ontario you might want to get prepared; Freezing Rain/Heavy Snow/Snow Squall  warnings in effect.


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## larry Strong (5 Jan 2014)

Wonder if I can qualify for food stamps........


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## Kat Stevens (5 Jan 2014)

just another day in North Central Alberta


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## Brad Sallows (5 Jan 2014)

Imagine a home heated by a natural gas furnace, with a natural gas stove/oven.  When the electricity goes out, you can still heat, cook, and keep your food cold.  How often, comparatively, do areas suffer "gas outages"?


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## Kat Stevens (5 Jan 2014)

A home heated by natural gas still needs electricity to run the fan and thermostat.


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## Brad Sallows (6 Jan 2014)

Right you are.  And it turns out even newer gas stoves are more limited.  I find it turns out that you'd need quite an old furnace and older stove.  Too bad.  I suppose the only advantage is that you could restore furnace and stove without getting into too large a generator, if you were prepared to do without anything on any other circuit.


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## Strike (7 Jan 2014)

I have a friend who posted on FB during the storm. He was all pleased that he had set up his generator to work the furnace and fridge, then said that he could now keep his beer cold. I promptly burst his bubble and reminded him that putting his beer on the back deck would do the exact same thing.


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## Armymedic (7 Jan 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> A home heated by natural gas still needs electricity to run the fan and thermostat.



No so with a gas fireplace.


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## Danjanou (7 Jan 2014)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> No so with a gas fireplace.



Yup and the only reason we were able to stay in our house for the 6 nights the power was out. Furnace kaput, but for some reason hot water tank was GTG, even after 4 nights still hot water. Funny having a piping hot shower and stepping out into a sub zero bathroom...... not


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## The_Falcon (7 Jan 2014)

Canada may make of Toronto for it's inability to handle winter (being in a Northern Climate and all), but this http://www.thewrap.com/jimmy-kimmel-arctic-los-angeles-weather surely is the overall winner, in the winter whiners club.


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## Kat Stevens (8 Jan 2014)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> No so with a gas fireplace.



A gas fireplace heats a room, not a house.


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## Danjanou (8 Jan 2014)

well two rooms if you're lucky and they're small


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## Edward Campbell (8 Jan 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> A gas fireplace heats a room, not a house.




True, of course, but in an emergency one warm, albeit dark room may be a really good thing for 36 or 60 hours, until electricity is restored.

I live in a downtown condominium ~ my power never even flickered during the January 1998 _Ice Storm_ but, like everyone else in Ottawa, I was hit by the August 2003 _Northeast Blackout_. I'm not sure Ontario would have done as well as it did in 2003 had the blackout been in January, not August. I think that if I lived anywhere in Ontario but the in a city centre condo (which has an emergency generator) I would want a mix of gas and electrical services and a back-up generator, too.


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## bridges (8 Jan 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I think that if I lived anywhere in Ontario but the in a city centre condo (which has an emergency generator) I would want a mix of gas and electrical services and a back-up generator, too.



And a carbon monoxide detector with battery back-up.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Jan 2014)

bridges said:
			
		

> And a carbon monoxide detector with battery back-up.



That's coming. Shortly, they will be required by law in every domicile in Ontario.


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## Journeyman (8 Jan 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> > And a carbon monoxide detector with battery back-up.
> 
> 
> That's coming. Shortly, they will be required by law in every domicile in Ontario.


Great, more legislation to keep Darwin from working effectively.  If you're stupid enough to run something like a gas BBQ in your apartment, giddy up.

...please do it before you breed.


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## dapaterson (8 Jan 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> That's coming. Shortly, they will be required by law in every domicile in Ontario.Great, more legislation to keep Darwin from working effectively.  If you're stupid enough to run something like a gas BBQ in your apartment, giddy up.
> 
> ...please do it before you breed.



Unfortunately, stupid people in apartment buildings can have an impact on less stupid people in the same apartment building.

For example, if you're on the third floor, and somone on the fourth floor brings in the BBQ, their carbon monoxide may kill you first.

Now, if you're saying that Darwin says "You deserve to die for having stupid neighbours"...


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## Journeyman (8 Jan 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Now, if you're saying that Darwin says "You deserve to die for having stupid neighbours"...


I don't speak for Darwin; I just marvel at his examples...


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## The_Falcon (8 Jan 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, stupid people in apartment buildings can have an impact on less stupid people in the same apartment building.
> 
> For example, if you're on the third floor, and somone on the fourth floor brings in the BBQ, their carbon monoxide may kill you first.
> 
> Now, if you're saying that Darwin says "You deserve to die for having stupid neighbours"...



Or possibily set the building on fire and kill you and others that way.


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## Danjanou (8 Jan 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> That's coming. Shortly, they will be required by law in every domicile in Ontario.Great, more legislation to keep Darwin from working effectively.  If you're stupid enough to run something like a gas BBQ in your apartment, giddy up.
> 
> ...please do it before you breed.



Gas..... a couple of them were using charcoal BBQs :


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## my72jeep (8 Jan 2014)

Dec 27 in Markham we had a linesman zap a pole saw on a "dead line" hell we could see it was ripped off the pole. turns out some yahoo had his generator wired into the house with out a back feed preventer, took us 3 hours to find it because he had it running in his basement so his neighbors would not 1. steal it. 2, ask to hook up to it, or 3, Bitch about the noise.


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## pbi (8 Jan 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> That's coming. Shortly, they will be required by law in every domicile in Ontario.Great, more legislation to keep Darwin from working effectively.  If you're stupid enough to run something like a gas BBQ in your apartment, giddy up.
> 
> ...please do it before you breed.



Actually, they've been around for a while now: my house here in Kingston was built in 2007 and has one. I thought they were law already. AFAIK, the real function is not to reduce moron attrition, but to protect again CO poisoning by a malfunctioning furnace. You normally can't detect CO poisoning on your own, since you can't smell it like smoke.

But I'm fine with the culling of congenital idiots, as long as the fire doesn't spread to my place.... >


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## bridges (8 Jan 2014)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> That's coming. Shortly, they will be required by law in every domicile in Ontario.Great, more legislation to keep Darwin from working effectively.  If you're stupid enough to run something like a gas BBQ in your apartment, giddy up.
> 
> ...please do it before you breed.



Actually, there are several different things that can cause CO poisoning (that's carbon monoxide....).  A few days ago a family in Ottawa heard a funny noise coming from their hot water heater; they called Enbridge, who said it wasn't an emergency and they should make an appt to have it serviced later that week.  Next thing you know all 4 family members were in the hospital with CO poisoning from the malfunctioning water heater, and the gas had gotten into two adjoining apts as well.   So it's not only stupid people that get hit by this.  These detectors are a basic piece of safety kit now, like winter emergency stuff for your car.


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