# Pay for CIC pilots?



## cpl-cam (20 May 2005)

I was Looking at the pay charts and noticed that for the base pay of a Lt. a pilot makes 20% more money an a normal Lt. I was just wondering if this only applies to reg force pilots or CIC pilots working at a region gliding school are included in this. I know this might belong in therecruiting section but I decided to post here because the odds of a CIC officer reading it is much higher.


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## Inch (20 May 2005)

Nope, those pay tables are for those with an MOC of 32A, which is pilot, not CIC or anything else for that matter.


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## Superrampie (22 May 2005)

Below is Taken right out of the CARs with regards to renumeration for flights. As my understanding of the Air Cadet flying program it is administered under Transport Canada and not The Department of National Defence. That being said unless you have a commercial licence (and from my experiences with Cadets these are few and far between) you cannot receive pay for being a pilot. There is however the paragraphs about reimbursement which could apply. (ie your squadron pays for the Aircraft rental and you fly it.

Oh God I am Quoting CARs (Flash back to Air Law with Mr Bruce)  
    

_401.28(1) No holder of a private pilot licence shall act as the pilot of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3) or (4), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight where

(a) the holder is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) the holder conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) the holder carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) the reimbursement

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing costs for fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

(3) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from the holder's employer for costs incurred in respect of a flight where

(a) the holder is employed on a full-time basis by the employer for purposes other than flying;

(b) the holder accepts remuneration for flying on the employer's business only when the flying is incidental to the execution of the holder's duties; and

(c) the remuneration

(i) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or hours flown that does not exceed the total of the holder's direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, or

(ii) in the case of a rental aircraft, is a reimbursement that does not exceed the total of the holder's rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(4) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive remuneration from a charitable, a not-for-profit or a public security organization in respect of a flight conducted by the holder as a volunteer for that organization where the remuneration

(a) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or hours flown that does not exceed the total of the holder's direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight; or

(b) in the case of a rental aircraft, is a reimbursement that does not exceed the total of the holder's rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight._


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## Inch (22 May 2005)

That's fine and dandy, but it doesn't apply to the military. Right out of part one of the CARs.



> Subpart 2 - Application
> Content last revised: 1996/10/10
> 
> 102.01   These Regulations do not apply in respect of:
> ...



I am paid as a pilot and I do not hold a valid Commercial licence (lapsed medical thus no longer valid).

By my reading of the above portion of the CARs, CICs can be paid to operate an aircraft that is owned by DND (who owns the gliders and towplanes?) if DND so desired to pay them as such. To my knowledge though, the only way to get paid as a pilot in the CF is to be a winged CF pilot with an MOC of 32A, this is where CICs do not fit into the "pilot" definition as far as DND is concerned. However, if they're instructing on Air Cadet Power they most certainly do hold commercial licences as well as valid instructor ratings so they can be paid as civilian pilots, which of course brings us to, "show me what the requirements are for a commercial glider licence". You can't because it doesn't exist. Glider pilots don't even have a private pilot licence, they hold a pilot licence for gliders. No mention is made in the section regarding glider pilot licences with respect to flying for hire. So why can't they be paid?

*edited for clarity ref the status of my CPL


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## Superrampie (22 May 2005)

Hey Inch

I just checked who the owner is listed as for the Gliders and Tow planes with TC and it is listed as the "Air Cadet League of Canada". Now does part 102.01 (a) still apply I don't know? 
Also a good point about the CIC officers who are instructing in the summer for the gliders. They could be getting paid as yes there is no such thing as "Commercial Glider Licence" but I would think the Tow pilots would need to have the CPL to get paid for doing that. 

As for the power scholarships I don't believe CIC officers are the ones that instruct. Last that I heard was the "Air Cadet League" contracted out to civilian flying schools and civilian flight instructors did the instruction.  

Who Knows, seems that really the best answer is. 

For you to be paid as a pilot in the CF you must be  MOC 32A.


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## Inch (22 May 2005)

Superrampie said:
			
		

> Hey Inch
> 
> I just checked who the owner is listed as for the Gliders and Tow planes with TC and it is listed as the "Air Cadet League of Canada". Now does part 102.01 (a) still apply I don't know?
> Also a good point about the CIC officers who are instructing in the summer for the gliders. They could be getting paid as yes there is no such thing as "Commercial Glider Licence" but I would think the Tow pilots would need to have the CPL to get paid for doing that.
> ...



Agreed, to my knowledge the tow pilots do have CPLs, I seem to remember that being a requirement to get hired for that. I never really persued it while I was waiting for Moose Jaw so I can't say for certain.

I doubt that part 102.01 (a) would apply but I just thought I'd throw that out there to show that you can be paid as a pilot in Canada without a Commercial licence.

Your ref to "Mr. Bruce" wouldn't happen to be Joe Bruce would it?


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## aesop081 (22 May 2005)

Whaever happenned to the good old days where guys and gals with cadet wings were quite content with the fact that someone else was picking up the tab when it came to licence/flying time ?   Now you want pay ?


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## condor888000 (22 May 2005)

Alright, Tow pilots do have CPL's, it is a requirment. For the power scholarship the leagues still contract out to civvie clubs to train the cadets. That's all I can add...


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## swalsh (24 May 2005)

Tow plane pilots are not required to have a cpl. The Central Region Flying Orders state:  

"Scout Conversion Course
6. 10 hrs tail dragger flight time is required before starting the course.
7. Standards/Check Tow Pilots may give type training as PIC. The pilot receiving the
training will log this time as dual. If the Stds/Check Tow Pilot holds a Private Pilot
Licence, the trainee's time is not creditable for the purpose of a TC licence upgrade."

So a ppl and 10 hours on a tail dragger are all that is required to be trained as a tow pilot.  

The staff are being paid because they are CIC officers being employed for the day.  They are not being â Å“paid to flyâ ?.  I know, that's splitting a pretty fine hair.


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## WO2 Gubbels (24 May 2005)

I know when i have enough solo hours I would love to fly with cadets for famil flying , i can't recall if it is 20 or 40 solo hours for a rented plane, eitherway i'm a little short.

 Gubbels


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## cpl-cam (30 May 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Whaever happenned to the good old days where guys and gals with cadet wings were quite content with the fact that someone else was picking up the tab when it came to licence/flying time ?  Now you want pay ?


When someone is at RGS for 8 weeks it helps to have a little money.... the whole food thing being a rather larger motivater.


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