# German Cdos in AFG Dinged for "Nazi Symbol" on Vehicle



## The Bread Guy

Just spotted this in what's usually a pretty right-of-centre news source ....

German elite soldiers used Nazi symbol
United Press International, 1 Nov 06
http://www.washtimes.com/upi/20061101-013719-5791r.htm

"Germany's elite soldiers in Afghanistan have painted a Nazi symbol onto their vehicles, a German news magazine reported.  The soldiers of the elite unit Kommando Spezialkraefte, or KSK, had sprayed a palm tree and an iron cross onto their vehicles, a symbol reminiscent of one used during World War II by the Wehrmacht's in Africa, German news magazine Stern reports in its latest issue, which will hit the newsstands Thursday.  Stern published a photograph of a white off-road vehicle with the symbol on it, used during the KSK's training in Oman and later in a mission in Afghanistan, the magazine said.  In the Nazi era, the famed Africa Corps under the command of 'Desert Fox' Erwin Rommel used a similar symbol, a palm tree with a swastika painted across.  "Some of our guys are stuck in the past and thought it was cool to drive around with this Wehrmacht emblem," an unidentified KSK soldier, who was not named, told Stern. "I and others found it sickening."   The German defense ministry has said it has launched an investigation." ....

Let's see - someone took the Bundeswehr's symbol of the Iron Cross (see below), added a palm tree, and now because its kinda-sorta-almost like the Afrika Korps symbol (also see below), there's an investigation.

Yes, it comes on the heels of the German skull photos.  Yes, there's likely more history and emotion involved in German military circles than I can imagine.  But is this going a bit far?  While I'll buy the definition of the swastika as a Nazi symbol, and I'll even buy the Afrika Korps symbol (maybe) as one stirring up memories, if the Iron Cross is the official symbol of today's German military, how does adding a palm tree make it a "Nazi symbol"?

Then again, if you believe Wikipedia, some units of the Afrika Korps still have successor units:  "The 15th Panzer Division was reconstituted as the 15th Panzergrenadier Division, the 90th Light Division was reconstituted as the 90th Panzergrenadier Division, and the 21st Panzer Division was reconstituted under its own name."

Happy to hear from you if you have more insights into how today's German military deals with its history.


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## Trooper Hale

My grandad still talks about North Africa as a clean war, one that wasnt vicious or as cruel as New Guinea or Europe was. He still talks about the Afrika Corp with respect and admiration for what they achieved. He see's the German (and he calls them Germans, definately not Nazi's) that he fought against as men, not monsters. And he has a great deal of pride in the current ADF. Why cant these Germans show some respect for they're forefathers who fought in North Africa by using a symbol that resembles one used 60 years ago? So much of current Germany could be said to be a Nazi symbol. The Parliament used to have a Swastika on it, does that make it a Nazi symbol just because it doesnt have one any more? So many historic German buildings would have to be knocked down if we decided that anything that used to have a swastika on it is a "Nazi" symbol.
I cant see a link. North Africa wasnt like Europe, the Afrika Corp wasnt like the SS and a symbol that means nothing to most people isnt a Nazi symbol if it has no Nazi conatactions.
Thats what i think anyway and my grandfather who was at Tobruk and El Alamain to name a few, agrees.


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## vonGarvin

D187 "Rommel" was a guided missile destroy of the Bundesmarine.  Commissioned in 1970 by none other than the widow of Erwin Rommel.  She served until 1980-something.
D186 "Mölders" was a sister ship, named for Battle of Britain ace Werner Mölders.  Incidentally, a Luftwaffe squadron bore his name until last year when a member of the Bundestag, who came from the old- "German Democratic Republic" pressured the government to remove his name (because Mölders served with the Kondor legion in Spain)
There is also a barracks named after Rommel in Ulm (Swabia)

Oh, Rommel's son was mayor of Stuttgart for the longest time, IIRC.


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## Infanteer

It's bizarre to see such an abject shunning of past achievements.  Nothing wrong with being proud of the history of your military; not everything from the Third Reich should be scrubbed away.  As we honour those who fought before us, they should be able to as well.

The famed "Desert Rats" who faced off against the Afrika Korps are still around, no?


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## TangoTwoBravo

The headline is quite sensational and not a little misleading.


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## The Bread Guy

I'm going to be looking for the German magazine piece to see (with what little Deutsche I can remember from Grade 11) how close the UPI lead/headline matches reality.


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## vonGarvin

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> I'm going to be looking for the German magazine piece to see (with what little Deutsche I can remember from Grade 11) how close the UPI lead/headline matches reality.


If you find a link, let me know.  Ich kann deutsch wie ein Deutscher.  

Hauptmann


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## armyvern

von Garvin said:
			
		

> If you find a link, let me know.  Ich kann deutsch wie ein Deutscher.
> 
> Hauptmann



Kann ich ein großes Bier bitte haben? 

Vernmeister


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## armyvern

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> I'm going to be looking for the German magazine piece to see (with what little Deutsche I can remember from Grade 11) how close the UPI lead/headline matches reality.



Well if the German version of the headline were to match, it should read:

"Deutsche elitäre Soldaten haben Nazistisches Symbol benutzt"


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## Infanteer

Ich habe ein gross bleistift....


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## vonGarvin

From http://www.stern.de/presse/vorab/575280.html?nv=ma_ct

(usual dealings act: fair sharing and all)



_*KSK-Soldaten bedienten sich bei Auslandseinsatz eines Wehrmachts-Emblems*​ Soldaten des Kommando Spezialkräfte (KSK), der Elitetruppe der Bundeswehr, haben vor und während ihres ersten Afghanistan-Einsatzes ab Ende 2001 ein nachgemachtes Wehrmachtssymbol auf Geländefahrzeugen verwendet. Das berichtet das Hamburger Magazin stern in seiner neuen, am Donnerstag Ausgabe.

Das Magazin veröffentlicht ein Foto von einem Wolf-Geländewagen, auf dessen Seitentür das nachgemachte Palmensymbol von Adolf Hitlers Deutschem Afrika-Korps aufgesprüht ist. Das Bild hätten KSK-Soldaten in ihrem Lager auf der omanischen Halbinsel Masirah fotografiert, wo sie sich ab Ende November 2001 auf ihren Einsatz in Afghanistan vorbereiteten. Ein KSK-Soldat zum stern: "Ein paar unserer Jungs sind Ewiggestrige und fanden es besonders schick, mit dieser Wehrmachtsinsignie herumzufahren". Fahrzeuge mit dem nachgemachten Emblem des Afrika-Korps habe der Soldat auch nach deren Verwendung in Afghanistan am Heimatstandort des KSK im baden-württembergischen Calw gesehen, berichtet der stern weiter. 

Das Foto und die Aussagen des Soldaten im stern werden möglicherweise den Verteidigungsausschuss des Deutschen Bundestages beschäftigen, der als Untersuchungsausschuss Misshandlungsvorwürfe des früheren US-Gefangenen Murat Kurnaz gegen KSK-Soldaten sowie Rolle und Tätigkeit der deutschen Spezialkräfte bei ihren streng geheimen Afghanistan-Einsätzen 2001/2002 untersuchen soll.


And now, in english


*KSK Soldiers serving on a foreign mission serve with a symbol of the Wehrmacht (German Armed Forces in WWII)*​According to the Hamburg-based magazine “Stern”, soldiers of the elite KSK of the Bundeswehr have been using Wehrmacht symbols on their cross country vehicles, before and during their mission in Afghanistan.
The magazine will publish a photo of a Wolf (“LUVW”) on which the Palm symbol of “Adolf Hitler’s” Afrika Korps is sprayed on.  KSK soldiers are said to have taken the photo on the Omani peninsula of Masirah, where they were preparing for their Afghanistan mission at the end of November 2001.  A KSK soldier said to Stern: “A few of our young lads are stuck in yesteryear and thought it was cool to run around with this insignia of the Wehrmacht.”  Following their mission in Afghanistan, vehicles with the re-made symbol of the Afrika Korps were reported to have been seen back in the home station of the KSK in Calw (Baden Wuerttemberg), Stern reported.
The photo and the reports of the soldiers will probably be examined by the defence committee of the German Bundestag (parliament), which is also examining reports of the alleged abuse of the former prisoner of the US, Murat Kurnaz.  They will also conduct an inquiry into the role of the German Special Forces during its top secret mission in Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002._


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## vonGarvin

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Ich habe ein gross bleistift....


Put your Bleistift away, or I'll pull out my Kuegelschreiber and make a mess of this place


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## armyvern

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Ich habe ein gross bleistift....


This topic _could_ get interesting....


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## armyvern

The Librarian said:
			
		

> This topic _could_ get interesting....


Both of you should put your pens and pencils away and get out the darn beer!!


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## vonGarvin

Trust me, it only SOUNDS dirty

(HIJACK ALERT!)

German words that only sound dirty in English

Dich
Dicke
Lust
Lecher


(they mean "you", "fat", "want" and "delicious")

(HIJACK ENDS)


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## vonGarvin

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Well if the German version of the headline were to match, it should read:
> 
> "Deutsche elitäre Soldaten haben Nazistisches Symbol benutzt"


Pretty close, gnaedige Frau!
"Elite-truppen der Bundeswehr haben Nazi-Symbols benuetzt"


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## Infanteer

Jawohl, Fraulein.

Librarian, du bist meine schatze.... :-*

Auf wiedersehen!


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## armyvern

OK Infanteer,

I'll buy you a beer for that one!!


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## George Wallace

Having been in the Rommel Kasserne in 1983, during the Boeselager Recce competition, I find it unusual that this is news.  The Soldiers in that Kasserne were surrounded with many photos and symbols covering the history of those units garrisoned there and of the Kasserne's namesake.  They were no different than any other military units.  Just like we cover our walls with historical Regimental photos, banners, trophies, etc, so do they.


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## Red 6

The Bunderswehr has any number of units that share traditions, barracks, and symbols with the old German army. The trouble is, most of these don't have any coverage in the news media. Our partnership unit was the 352 Panzergrenadier Battalion in Mellrichstadt. It carried the same number as the Wehrmacht division that fought against the US Army on Omaha beach.

Yeah, we can all look at this and think, "No big deal." But every service has had its own internal dealings that spun out of control once the media latched onto it. The Marine Corps went thru a tempest in the teapot several years back over the blood wings tradition and it even affected the Army. We had a tradition in my unit of pinning rank that went out the window after that. 

The Germans don't know what to do with their history. I wonder what they think of the uniforms the Bunderswehr wears? Their camo pattern, collar patches, ranks, uniform cut, and so forth, all stem from the old German army.


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## 1feral1

I don't see the big deal about it. The 'iron Cross' symbol is widely used with the German military, regardless even with the old WWII palm tree.

Its all media hype and as usual, blowing things up out of proportion.

Yes, as usual, I am disgusted in the media, and nothing changes.


Wes


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## Teddy Ruxpin

And this is "news"?  The palm tree appeared on German Battle Group vehicles over _two years_ ago and has certainly been seen by the entire German chain of command, including (I would guess) the Chancellor, who visited the BG in early 2005.  It bears a superficial resemblance to the Africa Corps symbol, but that's as far as the "Nazi" connection goes.

What garbage.


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## FSTO

Someone please tell me why the Luftwaffe Iron Cross is not a Nazi era symbol

While the Bundswhere use of the Iron Cross is considered a Nazi symbol.


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## KevinB

German symbol yes -- Nazi symbol no.


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## Sub_Guy

Is this the "Nazi" symbol I have read about in the media recently?   Why am I not surprised?   :    


Retards


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## Munxcub

I think the one in the news has something to do with a palm tree as well as the iron cross. There was a post a few days ago about that one.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52712.0.html

</hijack> Back to you FSTO


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## vonGarvin

For what its worth, the so-called "Iron Cross" to which you refer is more correctly known as the "Maltakreuz", or "Maltese Cross", the design upon which the Iron Cross is based.
It is a symbol as German as the Maple Leaf is Canadian.  
This whole "stink" arose when it was reported that certain German Armed Forces troops were using a modified Afrika Korps symbol on their vehicles in Afghanistan.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52712.0.html


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## Signalman150

Okay, I'm a day late and a dollar short: someone's been complaining about the Iron Cross as a NAZI symbol?  WTF!

The cross used by the Luftwaffe (and shown on the tank turret) is actually called a Cross Patte, and is an ancient heraldic symbol. It's been in use on German aircraft since WWI.  Indeed, if anyone wanted to make a case for a "NAZI" cross, it would be the Greek Cross, (similar in shape to the Swiss Cross) that was used on their aircraft during WWII.  But again, since it's an ancient heraldic symbol, it's hardly NAZI in origin.

On a related topic, it's a sad thing that the Swastika got the rap it did.  The symbol is older than the original Germanic tribes: it was a good luck symbol in Hindu mysticism, and was a key symbol in early Celtic worship (pre-Christian era).  But all it takes is one lousy little dictator, and BAM!  An ancient and revered cross becomes symbola non grata.  Hmmmm.


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## Koenigsegg

Well, at least the Germans have their sense of Humour in Afghanistan....However twisted some may find it to be...
I am on the fence.

That is in reply to Von Garvin.  Sorry for the Hijack


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## vonGarvin

Cross Pattee.  That's it.  Thanks

As for WWII, this may be "urban legend", but the black and white crosses on German vehicles (land and otherwise) were originally white crosses, but the troops added black due to its obvious disadvantage (it made an excellent aiming mark)

(Pz III AusF D in Poland)


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## KevinB

I know a Canadian unit that adopted the Palm tree too


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## FSTO

But on that photo of the tank (or APC) turrent is the Palm tree?


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## Signalman150

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I know a Canadian unit that adopted the Palm tree too



Then using the same logic, they MUST HAVE BEEN NAZIS!  OH NOOOO, MR. BILL.


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## vonGarvin

From a Afrika Korps veterans site I found somewhere on the net:
(note: it has been "de-nazified" in that the Swastika, or _Hakenkreuz _ has been replaced)


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## Brad Sallows

Considering how relatively humanely the war in the desert was fought, I can't imagine anyone being embarrassed by, or believing anyone should be embarrassed by, the DAK palm tree.


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## Hamburg-Jung

Good day there folks,
I was just curious of that topic because I'm from Germany and I'm currently working for the Canadian Forces. To eliminate all questions first, here is a little text from the "Bundes Werfassungsschutzt".:

Rechtsextremistische Ideologieansätze erwachsen aus den beiden Wurzeln Nationalismus und Rassismus. Sie sind von der Vorstellung geprägt, dass die ethnische Zugehörigkeit zu einer Nation oder Rasse die größte Bedeutung für das Individuum besitzt. Ihr sind alle
anderen Interessen und Werte, auch die Menschen- und Bürgerrechte, untergeordnet.
Rechtsextremisten propagieren ein politisches System, in dem als angeblich natürliche Ordnung Staat und Volk in einer Einheit verschmelzen ("Ideologie der Volksgemeinschaft"). Tatsächlich läuft dies auf ein antipluralistisches System hinaus, das für demokratische Entscheidungsprozesse keinen Raum lässt. Zwar ist der
Rechtsextremismus in Deutschland nicht ideologisch homogen. Eine Überbewertung ethnischer Zugehörigkeit und eine gegen den Gleichheitsgrundsatz gerichtete Fremdenfeindlichkeit sind allerdings bei allen Rechtsextremisten festzustellen.
Auch hinsichtlich seines Erscheinungsbildes stellt der Rechtsextremismus kein einheitliches, geschlossenes Phänomen dar. Er artikuliert sich in unterschiedlichen Formen, insbesondere in einer jugendlichen Subkultur gewaltbereiter rechtsextremistischer Skinheads, in neonazistischen Gruppierungen, die einen totalitären Staat propagieren, in Parteien, die auch über die Beteiligung an Wahlen politischen Einfluss erreichen wollen, im Schrifttum rechtsextremistischer Autoren und Verlage, die intellektuell oder propagandistisch agitieren.
Die verfassungsfeindliche, zumeist menschenverachtende Ideologie entlädt sich in rechtsextremistischen, insbesondere fremdenfeindlichen Straftaten, die sich gegen Minderheiten allein wegen ihrer ethnischen Zugehörigkeit richten.
Zur Eindämmung der rechtsextremistischen Gewalttaten und zur Verhinderung strafbarer rechtsextremistischer Propagandaaktivitäten wurde eine Vielzahl staatlicher Maßnahmen gegen den Rechtsextremismus ergriffen (insbesondere Vereins- und Versammlungsverbote). Seit Ende 1992 erfolgten 24 Verbote (Stand: Juli 2006) rechtsextremistischer Organisationen durch das Bundesministerium des Innern bzw. durch Innenministerien/-senate der Länder.

I left this text in German because I've figured out that this forum has a couple of VERY smart heads with lots of good german skills like (Bleistift and Kugelschreiber... pretty advance I have to say... :threat:

All in all it is like that: Using any symbol that could be refered to or is representing a symbol used by the Nazi Regime is forbidden in public and especially in government organisations such as the Bundeswehr. Furthermore, altering and manipiulating any government logo such as the Bundeswehr logo is forbidden by law - unless it is used in accordance with the Department of National Defence (German).
Also, using and altering a government vehicle such as the KSK did in such a manner that it does not refer to the mission is not permitted because it is against the rules of conduct. That is like taking of the Maple Leaf and but back the British Flag onto our vehicles. We would represent ourselfes in such a manner that we could represent another nation.
Plus it is not responsable as a german soldier to joke with the past. It is a hard history and the reputation of Germany has to be rebuild. And that does not work with a german KSK soldier(s) same as JTF2 by the way, representing germanys elite troop.
Hope I've cleard out a couple of things.


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## vonGarvin

Hamburg:
there is a lot of 'right-extremist' references in the red (and thus hard to read  ) quote you have inserted.  That is a problem for Germans I found when I lived there.  As with Canadians, they wish to be proud of their heritage, and rightly so.  Beethoven, Brecht, even Marx and Engels, Luther and many many others were "Germans" of whom they could be proud.  (I put the word Germans in quotes, because I think Luther was Saxon, not German, as Germany did not exist as a state until 1870 or 1871, I believe, but I digress)
In its struggle to recognise freedom of the individual without resorting to the horrors of the Third Reich, Germany has a problem for which I cannot fathom a solution.  In spite of the overall aims of the Reich, many German soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS, airmen of the Luftwaffe and sailors of the Kriegsmarine fought with honour and pride.  Rommel is still a name of pride, as is Moelders and Canaris, dare I say.  If Joseph Dietrich were a Oberstgeneral in the Wehrmacht instead of a Oberstgruppenführer in the Waffen-SS, he may have still a place of honour today.
Unlike Germany, Canada does not have such a troubled history.  In this struggle to which I've alluded, Germany is caught between wishing freedom of thought and constraining extremism.  Nationalism is not a dirty word, and Bundeswehr soldiers with whom I served in Kabul were proud of their heritage.  One major talked proudly of his grandfather who was an officer in the Wehrmacht, who served in Russia.  He was still alive in 2003, and in one letter asked him how life was "on the Eastern Front", an obvious reference to World War Two, or the "Rußland Feldzug".
Anyway, keep the posts coming.  Though I can speak German, that does not make me one.  Perhaps you could form a new thread to discuss this "situation" in Germany
Cheers

von G.


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## Hamburg-Jung

Von G.
I have both citizenships and I've lived in Germany all my life. I'm here now for 2 years serving in the CF and I'm still proud of all the things that my family and friends did and represent in the past-present-and future. I love our musical, literal and ethical cultures as much as every other german. It is just that in what way we show our patriotism. We as germans are not really likely to but a german Flag on our car or on a flagpost infront of our house. It would be too patriotic. But deep within I can garante you are we all proud of the accomplishments we have had over the last 60 years. The First and Second WW is just something that has happend in history. It seems to be part of the worlds history. Terrible things have had happened during that time but I wasn't involed in it. My Grandfather for instance was a pilot for the Luftwaffe against americans canadians and british planes. And he told me yesterday that he dosn't regret doing it because it was the enemy and a war has always two sides. To the question whether he questioned the war - he silenced a little and answerd: "Of course - I was a animal doctor and now I was forced to sit in a plane fighting a war that none wanted because some austrian bastard told us do to so. I wasn't in the position to question the war due to that fact that I love my family and I do not want any harm to my family." A war has many faces and many different views. Every war is seen from a different prospective. It is just a matter of how to sell it to the public. Every war means money for the countries participating in it. When my grandfather was send to bomb Halifax N.S. in 1943 he was lucky because I ended up as a POW in MedicinHat AB. The Canadians were the friendliest enemy when it comes to POW. My grandfathers brother was send on a mission to england and never came back. He flew with a sqn towards the oil reserve stations in the north of england but he must have been guned down. I feel like thanking the canadians for treating german officers the way they did. 3 warm meals a day, heat and water. What else do you need. 
Anyway, I'm drifting to far off. What I'm trying to say here is that my grandfather is still proud of what he did. He fought against an enemy that would either kill his brothers in arms or his family. There was no time as to think about why he was fighting against. But I believe there was never time to do so in the WW2. My Dad was also in the Luftwaffe after the war of course. He served there as a pilot for several years before switching to become a commercial pilot for Lufthansa. He was proud of what he was doing because his heritage and history never gave him any reason not too. Of course the bad things happened, but we have to move on. GET-R-DONE as J. the cable guy would say it in his southern american english. We as germans have to move on in order to eliminate the bad critics in the world and rebuild our status as europs leading country. 
I'm not gonna create a new topic about german patriotism or any other stuff because I tought it would succeed in this forum as a constructive and well discussion. Cheer v G.
Hamburg


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## peaches

The Afrika Korps was not a *NAZI* unit in WW2.  There were no SS units, just the 21st Panzer, 90th Light and later on the 15th Panzer I believe.  I have recently read two books on the North African battles, *War Without Hate*, and the biography of *Col Hans Von Luck*, a German officer in the DAK.  Both very interesting reads.  DAK has nothing to be ashamed of, and Germans should not be ashamed of them.  Now if these soldiers had painted "DAS REICH" or "TODTEN KOPF" on their vehicles, different story.


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## cameron

While I was (and still am) sickened by the pictures of German soldiers posing with skeletons, i'm somewhat baffled about the furor over the KSK using a symbol of a palm tree and an iron cross.  After all as other army.ca members on this topic have pointed out the iron cross is a symbol commonly used by Germany 's armed forces.   If it were a palm tree and a swastika i'd be the first to express disgust and disapproval, but trying to find a link between the symbol the KSK are using in A'stan and the one used by the Afrika Korps in WWII is stretching things too much in my opinion.  Let us not forget also, that the commander of the Afrika Korps, General Erwin Rommel, was certainly no Nazi.


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## vonGarvin

peaches said:
			
		

> The Afrika Korps was not a *NAZI* unit in WW2.  There were no SS units, just the 21st Panzer, 90th Light and later on the 15th Panzer I believe.  I have recently read two books on the North African battles, *War Without Hate*, and the biography of *Col Hans Von Luck*, a German officer in the DAK.  Both very interesting reads.  DAK has nothing to be ashamed of, and Germans should not be ashamed of them.  Now if these soldiers had painted "DAS REICH" or "TODTEN KOPF" on their vehicles, different story.


I think what you meant to say was the the Afrika Korps was a WEHRMACHT formation.  Regardless, the Wehrmacht was a tool of the 3rd Reich and therefore, as much "nazi" as the Todt Organisation (labour force).  The Waffen-SS, that's a different story, not to be confused with the Allgemeine-SS (which included concentration camp guards, the Gestapo, etc).

Anyway, hijack ends.


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## vonGarvin

cameron said:
			
		

> Let us not forget also, that the commander of the Afrika Korps, General Erwin Rommel, was certainly no Nazi.


Although not a member of the Nazi Party, and although he lead his 7th Panzer Division in 1940 with elan and as a "gentleman warrior", and although he commanded the DAK fairly welll within the laws of armed conflict, and although he commanded German forces in a similar manner in France in 1944, Feldmarschall Erwin Rommel was an opportunist, extremely popular in Germany.  Nazi?  No, certainly not.  But I think that his "legend" increased following his death in 1944.


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## Nfld Sapper

Umm.... could someone please translate the german text so those of us who don't know german can see what is in that quote ??? thx


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## vonGarvin

Sure
the German says the following:
"In order to subjectate the free world in the name of the Fourth Reich, we must first create a diversion.  Firstly, the KSK will emblazon their vehicles with a revamped, or denazified DAK emblem."
OK, just kidding.

I'll translate it later.  Keep watching this thread!

von G


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## RangerRay

I can definitely understand why Germans would shy away from the symbols of the former National Socialist regime.

But I could never understand why they equate the symbols and institutions of Imperial Germany (1871-1918) as "Nazi".  After all, it was Chancellor Bismark and Kaiser Wilhelm I that created the modern German state.  Those few Germans that advocate for a return of the Kaiser as a _constitutional_ monarch, such as we have here in Canada, are called "Nazis".  Even the the official state flag of the _Bundesrepublik_, the modern tri-colour with the eagle coat-of-arms, is seen widely as "Nazi".  To me, these are a completely different set of symbols than those used by the National Socialist regime of the 30s and 40s.


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## vonGarvin

My translation of that German text:
"Right-wing extremists’ ideologies arise from the two roots of Nationalism and Racism.  They are imprinted with the idea that ethnic affiliation with a nation or race possesses the greatest meaning for the individual.  For them all other things, including human and civil rights are less important.  They support a political system, in which the nation and the state merge.  (“Ideology of the _Volk_”).  This actually comes down to an anti-pluralistic system that leaves no room for the democratic decision-making process.  In actuality, Right-wing extremism is not ideologically homogeneous.   An overestimation of ethnic affiliation and opposition to the principle of equality can be found amongst all right-wing extremists, however.   In its overall appearance, right-wing extremism does not present a uniform, isolated phenomenon.  It shows itself in various forms, in particular in juvenile subcultures of violent skinheads, in neo-Nazi groups that support a totalitarian state, in political parties that seek to achieve political change through the electoral process and in the writings of authors and publishing houses who agitate by intellectual or propagandistic means.  This anti-constitutional and contemptuous ideology manifests itself in right-wing extremists’ acts of hostile criminal offences, mainly directed against ethnic minorities.  In order to combat a rise of right-wing extremist acts of violence, and in order to prevent illegal extremist propaganda initiatives, several measures were implemented.  In particular, association with various groups and public assembly were banned.  Between the end of 1992 and July 2006, there have been 24 laws enacted by the Federal ministry of the Interior (Bundesministerium des Innern), as well as by the ministries of various Bundeslaender. (“Provinces” or “states”)


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## vonGarvin

RangerRay said:
			
		

> I can definitely understand why Germans would shy away from the symbols of the former National Socialist regime.
> 
> But I could never understand why they equate the symbols and institutions of Imperial Germany (1871-1918) as "Nazi".  After all, it was Chancellor Bismark and Kaiser Wilhelm I that created the modern German state.  Those few Germans that advocate for a return of the Kaiser as a _constitutional_ monarch, such as we have here in Canada, are called "Nazis".  Even the the official state flag of the _Bundesrepublik_, the modern tri-colour with the eagle coat-of-arms, is seen widely as "Nazi".  To me, these are a completely different set of symbols than those used by the National Socialist regime of the 30s and 40s.


The first flag of "modern" Germany (1870s) was a red, white and black flag, the colours coming from Prussia.  Following its defeat in world war one, Germany eventually adopted a Red, white and gold flag during the so-called "Weimar" republic.  The origins of these colours stems from an incident in 1848 in which university students in Jena (Saxony, I believe) were massacred by french troops during a protest.  The incident became an early rally cry for the unification of the German States into one state: Germany (Prior to 1870, "Germany" as such did not exist.  There was a bunch of German Speaking states in central Europe, including Bavaria, Prussia, Saxony, Baden, and so forth).  The colours of the uniforms of the students of the university at Jena were adopted for this movement.  The uniforms were black with red piping and gold buttons, hence the "Schwarz, Rot, Gold".  How this flag could be identified as a nazi symbol is absurd.  Following his acsension as Fuehrer in 1933, the flag of Germany reverted back to the "Prussian" or Imperial colours of Red, White and Black.


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## George Wallace

RangerRay said:
			
		

> .......  Even the the official state flag of the _Bundesrepublik_, the modern tri-colour with the eagle coat-of-arms, is seen widely as "Nazi".  To me, these are a completely different set of symbols than those used by the National Socialist regime of the 30s and 40s.



 ???  I have never in all my travels heard this.  If anything, the flag with the eagle coat-of-arms, not the Shield, may have been construed by some as being 'Communist' or 'Imperialist', but I have never heard of it being thought of as being 'Nazi'.


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## The Bread Guy

Hamburg-Jung - thank you VERY much for sharing your insights.  When I first posted the original piece, part of my quest was for some insights on how Germans deal with their history.  Very much appreciated - looking forward to more intriguing information.


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## RangerRay

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ???  I have never in all my travels heard this.  If anything, the flag with the eagle coat-of-arms, not the Shield, may have been construed by some as being 'Communist' or 'Imperialist', but I have never heard of it being thought of as being 'Nazi'.



When I was an exchange student many years ago, I bought one of these flags because the plain tri-colour looked boring in comparison.  When I showed to my exchange partner and friend, he told me not to show it off publicly because people will think I'm a Nazi.  This really confused me because this is the same flag that flies at government buildings and _Bundeswehr_ bases.  ???

EDIT: picture of flag in question to clarify:


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## George Wallace

RangerRay said:
			
		

> When I was an exchange student many years ago, I bought one of these flags because the plain tri-colour looked boring in comparison.  When I showed to my exchange partner and friend, he told me not to show it off publicly because people will think I'm a Nazi.  This really confused me because this is the same flag that flies at government buildings and _Bundeswehr_ bases.  ???



All I can say, is that your friend was either an idiot or a 'racist'.  There are many who still hold grudges from the Second World War and Korean War, and don't actually know the difference.  In this case, I would almost bet that anything German was 'Nazi' in your friend's mind.


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## vonGarvin

RangerRay said:
			
		

> When I was an exchange student many years ago, I bought one of these flags because the plain tri-colour looked boring in comparison.  When I showed to my exchange partner and friend, he told me not to show it off publicly because people will think I'm a Nazi.  This really confused me because this is the same flag that flies at government buildings and _Bundeswehr_ bases.  ???
> 
> EDIT: picture of flag in question to clarify:


Hey, I too was an exchange student in Germany, and I too purchased one of those flags.  As I recall, I believe it is used to signify elements of the Federal Government, vice the Federal Republic.


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## Nfld Sapper

Thx for the translation Von Garvin  :cheers:


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## George Wallace

What would he have said about this one I bought?


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## vonGarvin

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What would he have said about this one I bought?



Commie rat!


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## vonGarvin

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> Thx for the translation Von Garvin  :cheers:


You're welcome


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## geo

Communists!!!

Then again, the Herr Chancelor is a Fraulein and she's east German to boot.........


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## vonGarvin

geo said:
			
		

> Communists!!!
> 
> Then again, the Herr Chancelor is a Fraulein and she's east German to boot.........


I guess "Herr Bundeskanzler" is not "Frau Bundeskanzlerin" 

An Ossie too!  The horror!  I wonder what she did prior to November 1989!


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## geo

Where the Japanese have never truly acknowledged misdeeds for their foray into China & the south pacific, The Germans would appear to have some problems living alongside their history....

And to think that the Swastika / bent cross, is a Hindu symbol


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## vonGarvin

The Swatika, or "Hakenkreuz" in German (which literally means "crooked cross") did not originate from the Bhuddist Swastika of old, but rather was a deliberate twisting of the Christian Cross by anti-semites in Europe in the 19th Century.  It was later adapted by national socialists in Germany.  The Hakenkreuz is definately an anti-semitic symbol both in origin and intent, whereas it's similarity to the Swastika is more by happenstance than by any deliberate twisting of an old symbol into a new meaning.


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## Red 6

The hooked cross was also a Southwestern Indian symbol and was called the sunwheel or ringed wheel. It was the shoulder sleeve insignia of the 45th Infantry Division before World War II. That was the Arizona National Guard division that had the insignia changed to the thunderbird in around 1941.


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## geo

must've ticked off the Guard plenty that someone stole their logo


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## Zell_Dietrich

Bitte,
  "Ein paar unserer Jungs sind Ewiggestrige und fanden es besonders schick, mit dieser Wehrmachtsinsignie herumzufahren"

    Gelegentlich erhalten junge Soldaten verfangen, dies tuend.  Ja schlecht, aber er geschehen in jeder Armee. (Gleichmäßiges Kanada) Was ich nicht verstehen, warum durch zwei Jahre keiner hat es gesehen? Warum jetzt?  :blotto:


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## geo

Why did it only come out now?
1 - Slow press day for the local Zeitung
2 - Some politico got a letter of complaint from some disgruntled civ/mil and they felt they should show their constituents that they are doing their job & taking this act seriously

With the Brit army in Iraq, it was pointed ut that the 8th Bde's moniker "the desert rats" was an unclean symbol to the local population...... some political do gooders wanted the logo taken down.....  did`n't happen (thank god!)


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## Zell_Dietrich

Well,  I know how allergic most germans are to anything from that era.  But, was it just a palm tree on the van or did it have the swastika on it?  If it was a just a palm tree, may I point out that they are in a desert?  Palm tree ... desert ... if I saw a palm tree painted on a jeep I would think Nazis ... I would think "wow,  they have time to paint their jeeps,  they must not go out much ... esp at night"  (Subtil dig at the Germans ... or is it the Germans that can't go out at night?)


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## geo

I would imagine that there was no bent cross on the picture but someone back home saw a pic of the palm tree and went ape sh!t.

Time to paint the trucks.... don`t think it takes too long, once the stencil has been put together.


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## vonGarvin

From what I understand, I was something similar to this:





Of course, I just mean the palm and cross below.  The other stuff, no.


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## Trooper Hale

I just got home from a week out field ("A week!" i hear you cry, "A week is weak!") driving around a M113 for a crew commanders course during which we were lucky enough to have some of the tank support squadron down there driving around in their Leopards and Abrams. 
Painted on the side of said Leopards and spread over most of tank support squadron is their little logo, a logo that is (drum roll) an exact copy of the Afrika Corp palm tree without the maltese cross or swastika. I even saw it with our red Kangaroo beneath it.

Obviously the Australian Armoured corp is full of Nazi's!


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## geo

Uh oh.... now the German gov't will be angry at Australia.......

Where is this going to end?


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## The Rifleman

for those who haven't seen it - here is the "Offending" logo


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## vonGarvin

Those Germans are PANSIES!  That symbol is NOTHING like the symbol of the Afrika Korps!  Rudel, von Manstein and Rommel himself must be rolling in their graves!


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## geo

It's all in the coconuts hanging from the palms


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## Trooper Hale

Wow...offensive!?!?! Bollocks! Its a palm tree, i'll try to get a snap of our ones up at Pucka. While using German symbols from the war is always bound to bring up emotions it needs to be a symbol that the average person would recognize and be offended by. Walk down the streets of any western city in the world and see who can pick that Palm Tree to be an offensive Nazi palm tree from a normal "I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts" palm tree.


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## geo

(and I thought they were elephants hiding in the treetops - with only their testicles hanging down below the palm fronds 8)

BTW - elephants toenails aren't painted red..... Those were the little pigmies who tried to bring down the coconuts with slingshots and got flattened for their trouble.  8)


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