# Border guards start using their new pistols.



## Remius (1 Sep 2007)

Border guards start using their new pistols.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/01092007/3/canada-border-guards-new-guns-use.html


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## IrishCanuck (2 Sep 2007)

Well done, new tools making us more effective and safer on the job.

At my port the holster strap has been undone a couple of time.. but no draw downs yet. It will come.


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## Remius (2 Sep 2007)

Agreed.  With the things border guards have to deal with you really have to wonder what took so long.  I know I know, another topic for another thread.  I'm just glad they have what they need to do their job.


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## zipperhead_cop (2 Sep 2007)

It's good to see.  Prior to this, they would have just waved them on and the who knows where the car would have went.  I'm sure the CBSA folks hated doing that as well.


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## 1feral1 (2 Sep 2007)

Gone are the days where Canada Customs uniforms and the like resembled Canada Post. I remember many friendly border chats at Big Beaver Saskatchewan and other lonely spots on the prairies.

The times have truly changed, and good on them for getting their upgrades of kit to help combat todays real threats.

Cheers,

Wes


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## IrishCanuck (2 Sep 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> It's good to see.  Prior to this, they would have just waved them on and the who knows where the car would have went.  I'm sure the CBSA folks hated doing that as well.




What... you mean the O.P.P didn't catch all those armed and dangerous look-outs we sent up the road to them????  

Sure it changes the dynamic of the work, and I've noticed alot of people don't like it very much, I've heard alot of comments to the effect of :

"wow you guys are all tough now with your guns eh?"

"ever since you guys got your guns you are all so hardcore"

 :

I for one like the enforcement direction we are headed in. I know myself and most of the other young officers have that mindset, its the old vestiges of Revenue and Excise Canada, Canada Revenue Agency, Canada Customs etc.. the old "Tax collector" mantle that needs to be shed, and within a decade hopefully that will have happened.

Example:

Found a dozen prescription "sample" bottles in a bag in a traveller's car. Long story short, demanded to see a prescription and asked why so many pills were needed for a two day trip.

"I have a prescription, just not here with me." : " You guys can take the pills , I dont care, so I'll just be on my way."

"Umm no sir, we are going to be taking a bit more than the pills from you. As of right now your car is seized and I will let you know the penalty for return of your conveyance in a few minutes."

"WHAT? You guys can't do that!"

"Yes we can sir... it's all under the enforcement section of the Customs Act."

"buch of glorified tax collectors, that's all you guys are."

Yeah yeah....  :

My rant is over.  :-[

Stay safe everyone


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## J.J (2 Sep 2007)

> At my port the holster strap has been undone a couple of time.. but no draw downs yet. It will come.


  :

I am not sure what port you work at, but the only time the "strap" ( it actually is called the hood) comes down is when the Officer is drawing. It is to never be dropped in anticipation. It is something stressed on the course. It is an all or nothing action. I have heard of one instance in Northern Ontario of someone dropping their hood probably to try to look like a movie star or something and that person was spoken to about it. On course they are told to drop their hood and try to draw. Due to muscle memory it actually takes longer to draw it this way compared to when the holster is secured properly.
The job has not changed a lot, except another tool/response option has been added. The Officers on the arming course are also been taught more officer survival skills etc. That is more important than the firearm I believe. There will be unavoidable times where you must draw your firearm, but following the tactical principles etc you can limit those instances.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (2 Sep 2007)

WR said:
			
		

> :
> 
> I am not sure what port you work at, but the only time the "strap" ( it actually is called the hood) comes down is when the Officer is drawing. It is to never be dropped in anticipation. It is something stressed on the course. It is an all or nothing action. I have heard of one instance in Northern Ontario of someone dropping their hood probably to try to look like a movie star or something and that person was spoken to about it. On course they are told to drop their hood and try to draw. Due to muscle memory it actually takes longer to draw it this way compared to when the holster is secured properly.
> The job has not changed a lot, except another tool/response option has been added. The Officers on the arming course are also been taught more officer survival skills etc. That is more important than the firearm I believe. There will be unavoidable times where you must draw your firearm, but following the tactical principles etc you can limit those instances.



My bro in law served 30 years in the OPP retiring as a Staff Sgt....only drew his weapon twice and never fired a shot in anger. Just cause they got em doesn't mean it will now be the Wild West with shoot outs etc. I think the most effective weapon that any peace officer has is his or her mouth and the way in which they use their authority. I am in favour of the arming of the Guards at the border though it's a step in the right direction.


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## IrishCanuck (2 Sep 2007)

WR said:
			
		

> :
> 
> I am not sure what port you work at, but the only time the "strap" ( it actually is called the hood) comes down is when the Officer is drawing. It is to never be dropped in anticipation. It is something stressed on the course. It is an all or nothing action. I have heard of one instance in Northern Ontario of someone dropping their hood probably to try to look like a movie star or something and that person was spoken to about it. On course they are told to drop their hood and try to draw. Due to muscle memory it actually takes longer to draw it this way compared to when the holster is secured properly.
> The job has not changed a lot, except another tool/response option has been added. The Officers on the arming course are also been taught more officer survival skills etc. That is more important than the firearm I believe. There will be unavoidable times where you must draw your firearm, but following the tactical principles etc you can limit those instances.



I'm just telling you what I saw from standing next to the armed officer I speak of.

Maybe he was going to draw and stopped short. Granted I wasn't exactly watching my co-worker's every move as I was more focused on the situation with the traveller.

I can say for sure, the sidearm was not drawn, and yes, the "hood" for the Beretta had been undone.


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## MPSHIELD (2 Sep 2007)

Arming Border guards is a step in the right direction. Finally tools to do their job and get respect they need.

Lets be honest, people will take them more seriously now that they are armed. This is similar to the Transit police now being armed with Translink. Definitely a step in the right direction.

With that said I have to agree with WR that 





> most effective weapon that any peace officer has is his or her mouth and the way in which they use their authority


.


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## JVJA (3 Sep 2007)

I, for one, am happy the CBSA is being armed.  I cross the border every few weeks to take advantage of cheap(er) gas, school supplies, food etc... The limit of my "lawlessness" is being polite to the agents, hoping I dont have to pay duty on my $120 from  Walmart.   I see on a regular basis vehicles being searched by dogs.  I can imagine there are some  individuals who would want to protect their "cargo" at any cost, especially at rural crossings.  I regard this as a necessary tool for the job.


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Sep 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> My bro in law served 30 years in the OPP retiring as a Staff Sgt....only drew his weapon twice and never fired a shot in anger. Just cause they got em doesn't mean it will now be the Wild West with shoot outs etc. I think the most effective weapon that any peace officer has is his or her mouth and the way in which they use their authority. I am in favour of the arming of the Guards at the border though it's a step in the right direction.





			
				IrishCanuck said:
			
		

> I'm just telling you what I saw from standing next to the armed officer I speak of.



As with most things here, if someone's the SME, (WR is), let's take their word for what the protocol is before we get to the "he said, she said."


			
				IrishCanuck said:
			
		

> I'm just telling you what I saw from standing next to the armed officer I speak of.
> 
> Maybe he was going to draw and stopped short. Granted I wasn't exactly watching my co-worker's every move as I was more focused on the situation with the traveller.
> 
> I can say for sure, the sidearm was not drawn, and yes, the "hood" for the Beretta had been undone.



Maybe they need something along the lines of an 'incidnet report' every time they break protocol? That, and a more 'eyes wide open' report is going to help you're fellow officer when the investigation takes place. Now that firearms are involved, the more info the witnesses can provide, the better off we'll all be.


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## portcullisguy (10 Sep 2007)

recceguy said:
			
		

> As with most things here, if someone's the SME, (WR is), let's take their word for what the protocol is before we get to the "he said, she said."
> Maybe they need something along the lines of an 'incidnet report' every time they break protocol? That, and a more 'eyes wide open' report is going to help you're fellow officer when the investigation takes place. Now that firearms are involved, the more info the witnesses can provide, the better off we'll all be.



Well, I've read the policies and they certainly aren't screwing around - drawing a firearm must be reported, as with any defensive tools.  Although to be honest just unsnapping a holster (or dropping the hood), it would be left up to the officer to write the report, unless someone else saw it and called him on it.


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## geo (10 Sep 2007)

A handgun is a handgun - for personal protection...

If someone in a car shows up at a border crossing and decides he's going to burn through, it is highly unlikely the agent will have time to draw his weapon & what... open fire?  not a good thing when there are other innocent civilians about.

He'll still have to get on the phone and get local authorities to give chase.


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## zipperhead_cop (10 Sep 2007)

LEO's don't shoot at cars simply because they don't stop.  What is your point  ???


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## IrishCanuck (10 Sep 2007)

geo said:
			
		

> A handgun is a handgun - for personal protection...
> 
> If someone in a car shows up at a border crossing and decides he's going to burn through, it is highly unlikely the agent will have time to draw his weapon & what... open fire?  not a good thing when there are other innocent civilians about.
> 
> He'll still have to get on the phone and get local authorities to give chase.



And that's why we need CBSA cruisers.... 

Why would we shoot at someone running the port? 

True, their reasons could be highly dubious in nature, but I've seen people drive through the lanes that are just plain dumb and thought we were a toll booth. 

 The penalty for running the port is a seizure of the conveyance and a fine, not a indictable offense, so yes , we would call the O.P.P to hunt down the car and see if anything else is up with the vehicle when they find it, if yes, the O-dots can lay the charges, if not, we lay our penalty down. 

Giving BSO's handguns isn't going to turn the border into the wild west where officers are spraying rounds off daily.


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## KevinB (10 Sep 2007)

WR said:
			
		

> :
> 
> I am not sure what port you work at, but the only time the "strap" ( it actually is called the hood) comes down is when the Officer is drawing. It is to never be dropped in anticipation. It is something stressed on the course. It is an all or nothing action. I have heard of one instance in Northern Ontario of someone dropping their hood probably to try to look like a movie star or something and that person was spoken to about it. On course they are told to drop their hood and try to draw. Due to muscle memory it actually takes longer to draw it this way compared to when the holster is secured properly.
> The job has not changed a lot, except another tool/response option has been added. The Officers on the arming course are also been taught more officer survival skills etc. That is more important than the firearm I believe. There will be unavoidable times where you must draw your firearm, but following the tactical principles etc you can limit those instances.



+1
  I dont rotate my hood on my holster unless its coming out. Same way I dont take my carbine off safe unless I am bringing it ip into the aim to use.
I dont know much about CBSA (other than my run ins  ;D) - but I do know a bit about weapons and use of force.


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## KevinB (10 Sep 2007)

IrishCanuck said:
			
		

> Why would we shoot at someone running the port?



Exactly handguns dont do much to a moving car - You need Claymore's obviously  ^-^


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## geo (10 Sep 2007)

I said.....


			
				geo said:
			
		

> A handgun is a handgun - for personal protection...
> 
> If someone in a car shows up at a border crossing and decides he's going to burn through, it is highly unlikely the agent will have time to draw his weapon & what... open fire?  not a good thing when there are other innocent civilians about.
> 
> He'll still have to get on the phone and get local authorities to give chase.



and he said....


			
				zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> LEO's don't shoot at cars simply because they don't stop.  What is your point  ???



Where did I say that they would.
The only point I was making was that those sidearms can and only will be used for personal protection.
Unless we come up with our own "border patrol" police force, the responsibility to pursue runners will continue to be with the assistance of local authorities.


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## medaid (11 Sep 2007)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> LEO's don't shoot at cars simply because they don't stop.  What is your point  ???




Geo, 

    I think he just missed the sarcasm. Nothing meant by it I'm sure.


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