# Quitting the Forces



## mdh (1 Feb 2005)

Folks,

After reading so many messages on this excellent board from so many former reservists and regular force soldiers I thought this might be a timely question to ask.  There is a lot of collective military experience on this site from retired CF members - god knows how many total years if you added it all up.  We have had countless threads about the hard reality of military life: ranging from the impact of tours on family, daunting training requirements/commitments for reservists, frustrated career ambitions, maddening bureaucracy, indifferent leadership, etc. 

In so many ways this site showcases the CF - yet it can also be read as the mirror opposite: a conduit of cynicism/skepticism about the CF as a career choice. As several profiles testify, a lot of people here have served for a few years in the reserves or regs and left the service. 

So I thought I would pose the question: Why did you quit?

cheers, mdh


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## Bean (1 Feb 2005)

While I've never had the privledge of serving in the Regs, I did start my CF life in the PRes.  Left and went to the CIC only because at the time my employer would not have allowed for me to take the time for deployments or long extended training.  As I've worked up the corproate food chain, things have changed, but the CIC provides me the most flexibility,  It comes down to making the choice of either the unpredicatable life of class B service or the stability of solid employment long-term.  I woosed out and went with stability, and eventually couldn't be effective in the PRes without the ability to put in all the time.  CIC is not a bad option though, my time in the PRes has definitely aided my cadets and a number of junior officers gain some perspective, not to mention keeps me in check most of the time.


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## Kirkhill (1 Feb 2005)

Right question mdh. 

In a word, "Marriage".

As a single guy in Calgary I spent more than my fair share of time down at the Armouries, never missed a training day or an ex and went on course in the summer.  Continued that for 3 years. 
I ran into a family hiccup while I was in Gagetown that saw me have to withdraw from course (phase 2) and ended up in Regina where I joined the Johns.  Met the wife and got a new job that would:

A, require me to be on the road a lot
B, require my Saskatchewan raised wife and I to move Ontario.

The prospect of spending ALL of my life away from her, didn't appeal, especially since it meant leaving her alone in a strange place and would also have meant using precious vacation time to advance my Reserve career.  And I had no desire to go the route of so many of my fellow militiamen that devoted so much of their lives to the Reserves that they were verging on serial monogamy given the number of wives they were going through.

The desire to serve never went away, still exists to this day despite being, in the immortal words of a Danish buddy "40, fat and finished" but service just was not compatible with a family life and a job that requires a lot of travel.

Unfortunately for the CF, a good chunk of the high-paying jobs in the civvy world demand 60 hour weeks and a lot of travel that will tend to keep people like myself out of the system.

Cheers, and thanks for asking.


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## buckahed (1 Feb 2005)

Where to start?

1 in 4 home port duty watches, sailing with 40% unqualified crew, getting towed out to anchor in Bedford basin to finish repairs because the dockie unions were playing games, every chief in the navy being offered career extensions so I might make PO1 before I retired, getting 9 years sea pay with 11 years in, lowest seatime per year was 6 months with foreign port visits cut to save money,the average was closer to 9 months, a wardroom that rotated so fast I never bothered learning their names, waiting at harbour stations for a boat to come in from sea so we could press gang enough bodies to sail, squadron offices that   "worked" from 0800 to 1600 and god help you if you needed something from squadron at 1605,

The final straw for me was when an admiral traisped down from Ottawa with his entourage and held a squadron call to order us to stop complaining because he had the report in his hand to prove the average posting to the squadron was 18 months. There were 4 of us PO's sitting in a row that all had over 5 years in the squadron. I had 6. An hour later my career mangler read my UER, obviously for the first time, got a nervous expression on his face and when I asked point blank when I could expect a transfer out of the squadron or a shore posting, just started to umm and aahhh. 

I had a lot of mixed feelings when the whole mess went public a few months after I was out. The press got a lot of it wrong, but at least there was enough of a scandal that a few people got booted and the squadron got tied up for a while to clean things up.


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## mdh (3 Feb 2005)

Where to start?

1 in 4 home port duty watches, sailing with 40% unqualified crew, getting towed out to anchor in Bedford basin to finish repairs because the dockie unions were playing games, every chief in the navy being offered career extensions so I might make PO1 before I retired, getting 9 years sea pay with 11 years in, lowest seatime per year was 6 months with foreign port visits cut to save money,the average was closer to 9 months, a wardroom that rotated so fast I never bothered learning their names, waiting at harbour stations for a boat to come in from sea so we could press gang enough bodies to sail, squadron offices that   "worked" from 0800 to 1600 and god help you if you needed something from squadron at 1605,

The final straw for me was when an admiral traisped down from Ottawa with his entourage and held a squadron call to order us to stop complaining because he had the report in his hand to prove the average posting to the squadron was 18 months. There were 4 of us PO's sitting in a row that all had over 5 years in the squadron. I had 6. An hour later my career mangler read my UER, obviously for the first time, got a nervous expression on his face and when I asked point blank when I could expect a transfer out of the squadron or a shore posting, just started to umm and aahhh. 

I had a lot of mixed feelings when the whole mess went public a few months after I was out. The press got a lot of it wrong, but at least there was enough of a scandal that a few people got booted and the squadron got tied up for a while to clean things up.

Ouch Buckahed! You could give George Kostanza a run for his money.... 

Kirkhill,

I can certainly relate to the marriage and job pressures.   After coming back to the reserves after a long absence (I quit the first time because of school pressures and juvenile indfference), it is still a challenge to balance both and remain an asset to the unit.   With a recent promotion in the civvie world, it's been even more difficult.   

I don't think that the Militia will ever solve the problem of accommodating working professionals - even though they have made several noble attempts over the years via the old MITCP and even the current modular training system.   It could be one of those insoluable problems that always haunts the nature of a part-time military organization.   That's too bad because I sincerely believe there is a role to play for soldiers who aren't students and who could provide a more stable presence,

cheers, mdh


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## Kirkhill (3 Feb 2005)

> It could be one of those insoluable problems that always haunts the nature of a part-time military organization.  That's too bad because I sincerely believe there is a role to play for soldiers who aren't students and who could provide a more stable presence,



I definitely agree with you on the stabilizing influence.  And unfortunately I tend to agree with you on insolubility aspect.  Although sometimes I wonder if more could not be made out of the Supp List.

Some of us might be able to contribute on a volunteer basis.  Speaking for myself, while not able to keep up with the youngsters running around in the woods , I like to think that there are other fields in which I might be able to contribute in the support/adm/int/comms fields.  A security clearance, access to the mess and an opportunity to contribute, maybe even a uniform worn once a year (extra-large if you please ;D) would probably buy me.  And I think a number of others as well.....


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## Meridian (3 Feb 2005)

And it would make a lively mess at that....


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## Infanteer (3 Feb 2005)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> I definitely agree with you on the stabilizing influence.   And unfortunately I tend to agree with you on insolubility aspect.   Although sometimes I wonder if more could not be made out of the Supp List.
> 
> Some of us might be able to contribute on a volunteer basis.   Speaking for myself, while not able to keep up with the youngsters running around in the woods , I like to think that there are other fields in which I might be able to contribute in the support/adm/int/comms fields.   A security clearance, access to the mess and an opportunity to contribute, maybe even a uniform worn once a year (extra-large if you please ;D) would probably buy me.   And I think a number of others as well.....



How about the "Territorial" troops?  

Anyways, back to the "getting out" stories....


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## karl28 (3 Feb 2005)

When I was 20 I was in the Hastp's for almost a year completed basic  but never any furthere . I wanted to be a medic  and they wanted me to be infantry we didn't see eye to eye . *Bigest mistake I ever made in my life I have regrated ever sense .  * I am doing alright now I am a PSW with a home care company but I am know where near the physical shape that I had been thats the part I hate the most . I am trying to save up for a gym membership again to get back into shape maby some day I could get back in who know's . So for all you guys that are in CF love every minute off it civy life sucks not as much fun .


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## buckahed (4 Feb 2005)

Gee, mdh, I'm not that bitter. Quite.  I have to admit, though, the stuff coming out this week about the Chicoutimi inquiry and the training problems is really starting to get me , ummm .....  annoyed.

Deja vu all over again.


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## winchable (4 Feb 2005)

The following is an exception to the rule and not the normal:

Asked how good my chances were of getting put on board.
They said "4 years minmum and then you have to submit anothe transfer"

(My last transfer which took 2 years)

I decided I would apply to the royal forces (Given that I am also a British citizen) and see what my options were.

This was 2 years ago.
I've seen what I am allowed to do since and realised where I belong.

The short and the least de-moralising, if you want the whole story, PM me


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Feb 2005)

....after 10 years I just started to worry about the "getting a trade" thing but could not see myself remustering so I just said enough and booked it,.... no regrets and a whole lot of thanks to those who "guided" me away from being that snotty little 17 year-old......


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## mdh (4 Feb 2005)

Asked how good my chances were of getting put on board.
They said "4 years minmum and then you have to submit anothe transfer"

Sorry Che I am not following you here - do you mean on board a ship? I think you're a MARS guy aren't you??


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## PeterLT (4 Feb 2005)

I didn't quit. I was tossed on a medical in 1998 when I was deemed G4O4 after falling in an old unfilled trench and busting my back . The term "undeployable" was the nail that sealed the casket. Over my 25 years I had a good run and it seemed rather a fitting way to end after spending much time in the field. But I do miss it very much. Having said that I should say that it's my fellow Soldiers that I miss the most. Sometimes when I speak to civies I feel like I was born with the wrong brain. Soldiers have a very different way of thinking which no one but soldiers can understand. Needless to say, I really enjoy this forum. 

I sometimes wonder if I would have stayed much longer. I was at the point where I was really getting tired and PO'd with the "do more with less" politically correct credo that has crept into the service. It's a sorry statement when the measure of a unit's viability is fiscal accountability instead of combat readiness. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing any time soon.

Peter


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## winchable (4 Feb 2005)

Yeah, sorry that's an interesting internet phenomena where you have a few pints, type a post and realise the next morning it's barely english.

Was a MARS guy, released myself recently from the CF.
Realised that my chances of getting on board a ship were slim to none for another 4-6 years and didn't want to go about anymore transferring (as I had transferred into the navy already which took a long time) So I applied for voluntary release, which went through quite well.

In my situation then, I couldn't afford to leave school to do the training to get on board.
Now I'm not in school anymore, but a transfer to the regs to do some expedited training is going to take as long as it will to apply to the Royal forces (which take us uneducated folk) 
Fallen in love with my new choice since and couldn't see myself doing anything else.


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## mdh (5 Feb 2005)

Hi Che,

Thanks for the clarification - I've had many pint-inspired bouts of literary creativity myself.   :-X Good luck with the Royal Navy - I know that other posters on the board have had a tough time trying to sign on to the British Army.  I believe the RN has some week-long marathon style application process where they do everything except get you to swill down three bottles of rum in 30 minutes and swing from a rope with a knife in your mouth from mast to mast singing old naval ditties, cheers, mdh


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## winchable (5 Feb 2005)

I'm a British citizen so it's quite a bit easier for me to apply, in fact it is taking less time then it took me to get in here!

As for the week long induction *ahem*

      "  I am the very model of a modern Major General, 
          I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral, 
          I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical 
          From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical; 
          I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical, 
          I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical, 
          About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news, 
          With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse. "

Now I just need to practice my "yarring" and put on a ridiculous hat.


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## mdh (5 Feb 2005)

Wow, you're in!


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## Torlyn (5 Feb 2005)

Che said:
			
		

> Was a MARS guy, released myself recently from the CF.
> Realised that my chances of getting on board a ship were slim to none for another 4-6 years and didn't want to go about anymore transferring (as I had transferred into the navy already which took a long time) So I applied for voluntary release, which went through quite well.



Um, pardon??  As you know, I'm a MARS wannabe...  How much ship time is there??  I'm a bit worried now...   ???

T


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## winchable (5 Feb 2005)

That was specific to my case.
I was going to school, and wouldn't have been able to do the MARS training in any great length until after university was over.

Add to that the fact that MARS training is some of the longest (including OJT) in the navy and there's a chance I wouldn't have seen ship duty for ages.

Don't worry though. There's always a huge demand for MARS officers and as long as your competent at your job you'll see ship time from what I hear, but like I said in my situation it was going to take quite some time, time that I don't have.


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## Torlyn (5 Feb 2005)

Whew...  Thanks, my heart can start beating again.    I'm going reg, so I should have all the time in the world.  Now, as soon as I get passed the NOAB, the selection board, BOTC, (perhaps with Infanteer??  ) I sure as hell hope the copetency will be there...    Thanks again for the quick response, Che.   ;D  If I'm ever posted near england, I'll mail you a guiness.  

T


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## Grot (5 Feb 2005)

After the military training me to be an expert on computers, taking many courses, and loving every minute of it, they then decide to offer me a posting to train people on radio theory. It was at that moment that it became clear that the career managers and my superiors had no idea what I wanted, what I did, or what I wanted to do.

It was a shame and I would not have traded my 15 years in for anything but it certainly was the right time to bail. I have been out of the military 10 years now and it still surprises me that many people still in don't put enough value on what they can offer the job market. There are really hundreds of opportunities for normal, decent, hard working people that can actual put a sentence together. 

If you are thinking of making that jump, do your research but never undervalue what you have and what the military has taught you. It takes a bit of balls to leave the family of friends and regulations behind and its not for everyone but if you've had enough of the bullshit there are many of us out here that have been successful in our second careers.


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## Radop (6 Feb 2005)

PeterLT said:
			
		

> Having said that I should say that it's my fellow Soldiers that I miss the most. Sometimes when I speak to civies I feel like I was born with the wrong brain. Soldiers have a very different way of thinking which no one but soldiers can understand. Needless to say, I really enjoy this forum.


I am still in but this statement hit home.  I wrote some articles while I was in Afghanistan for the Star Phoenix in Saskatoon.  In one of the articles I described how we thought about different things including the attack that killed Short and Beerenfinger.  My dad had always tried to convice me that there were better opertunities in the civi sector that would not involve me going to dangerous locals.  He said that he realized why I did what I did after reading the articles.  I think it was the first time that he accepted the life I wanted to live.


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## mdh (6 Feb 2005)

I wrote some articles while I was in Afghanistan for the Star Phoenix in Saskatoon.

Hey Radop,

If you have the articles why not consider posting them on this site??? I'm sure it would be a good read, cheers, mdh


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## aesop081 (6 Feb 2005)

Although i did not quit the military ( i have considered it on a few occasions) i would like to echo previous comments here. As someone mentioned, talking to my family, and civilian freinds is a weird experience for me.  I never feel that they i can realte to their life and i am certain they cannot relate to mine. I just look at things from a less "sheltered" perspective.  I cannot see myself work a civilian job ( not that i couldn't get one if i so wished)......it's just not for me. I always feel alienated from non-military people. I can't quite put my finger on it.  My father is the only person who i can relate to outside the service and thats because he is a 22-year veteran of the CF.

My dedication to the service has never faultered trough the last 12 years but my moral has had its ups and down. The current state of some of our equipment, quality of some of our leadership, postings to less than desirable locations and political apathy have, at some point and time, caused me to reconsider my choice of career, but evrytime i think i am ready to leave, i remember the times and people that have made it unforgetable and i cannot bring myself to leave.

I have wanted to be in the military since i was 5 and i have come to the conclusion that i will be a soldier until they tell me i cannot soldier anymore.

Cheers


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## PeterLT (7 Feb 2005)

> I have wanted to be in the military since i was 5 and i have come to the conclusion that i will be a soldier until they tell me i cannot soldier anymore.



I too have always wanted to be a Soldier from a very young age. I got news for ya, once you are a Soldier, you're a Soldier. Even when they bury you after along life, they'll have buried a Soldier. There are few things that are more permanent. I did 2 years in the Militia and 25 years in the Regs but my brother only served a few years and he still rolls his socks at 55 years old. Even after you cannot Soldier anymore, you are still a Soldier. Look at the Chelsea Pensioners, some of these old guys are in their 80's and they still parade. 

http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk/

Point is, even if you are no longer serving, even if you try to deny it to yourself......once a Soldier, always a Soldier!

Peter


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## ValkXB70 (8 Feb 2005)

Went through Basic in 1997, on the 7th week during our field ex (basic was only 8 weeks at this point).  I fell with full rucksack and smashed my knee into a small rock.  Hurt like a mother, but my Sgt taped me up and I finished the 13km forced march required to graduate.  When we returned to St.Jean I had my knee examined by the medics (big mistake here) they determined that I had ripped the band of tendons that secure the knee in place, and told me I would not be able to attend battleschool in my condition.  Was then told that it would take at least 8 months to heal.  My options were limited, re-muster into a softer trade (I was infantry) which posed it's own problem as you were only allowed 1 remuster during your career (I have heard it since changed)  OR quit, and reapply 6 months later.  I chose the later mainly because I would bypass basic training and could continue with the infantry no harm no foul.  Then things got horrible as delay after delay in re-processing my application cause me to miss my window and meant basic would have to be done again.  I got rather fed up with all the crap and said good bye to the CF.  

I regret it everyday.  I miss my friends, the life, everything.


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## Hgrant (18 Feb 2005)

I don't know about you guys.......but i want to get out bad. This military isn't a military. I know I'm making everyone mad by saying this, but it is a glorified welfare. I'm leaving to join the US Marines and i have never been happier with my life. I want occupational experience and i can not get it in this military. all this military promotes is Drinking and having a good time. I joined to be a soldier and its to bad i have to change my citizenship to do it.


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## ZipperHead (18 Feb 2005)

Hgrant, as you haven't filled out your profile to any real degree, could you please give us a little info on what your trade is, where you are posted, etc. 

I'd like to know why "this military isn't a military". What kind of experiences have you had to justify this condemnation? I know I have had my fair share of good times whilst drinking, but those days are long gone (where the drinking is front and center). The 2 beer per day in the field and (sometimes) while deployed has been around for a LOOONNNNGGGGG time now, and "smokers" are fairly rare. I would say that the drinking has dropped off dramatically in the 17 years I have been in.

Have a good one in the Corps.

Al


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## Hgrant (18 Feb 2005)

I'm sorry i would like to keep my profile to a min. as i do not want to get jacked for my messages here. as for my "military isn't a military". I have worked my ass off in this military only to be told that training is not an option because i am the only one there for cleaning stations. When a military is far more concerned with cleanliness then knowing your job, in my eyes it becomes less a military and more a placewhere i get payed lots of money to be a janitor. I'm sorry to all those people that work there ass off and my anger is directed to those that make this military a joke when it could be world class


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Feb 2005)

I'm sorry I must have misread, was that " I'm sorry I would like to keep my profile to a min. as I am a pathetic poser who has no idea what I'm posting here for?
....oops sorry, I must have hit the "clean up the BS button again"
...hey KevinB, wheres that flag of yours?


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## Hgrant (19 Feb 2005)

hahahahaha.....whatever dude. you are entitled to your opinion as am i. First of all i don't know how to change my profile, and second if i did i wouldn't because i don't want my bosses to here me bitch. And you should stick to the subject instead of trying to insult people that are only trying to discuss the topics that are posted.


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## TCBF (19 Feb 2005)

ValkXB70, what was your CFLRS crse serial in 1997?

Hgrant, are you finished your training, or one of the por souls who are waiting around for the green machine to free up some NCOs to teach a course?

Tom


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## PeterLT (19 Feb 2005)

> When a military is far more concerned with cleanliness then knowing your job, in my eyes it becomes less a military and more a placewhere i get payed lots of money to be a janitor.



I doubt you'll find that to be different in the USMC or any other military force. "Janitorial" stuff accomplishes many things beyond the obvious cleanliness. It instills a sense of responsibility to care for the surroundings you and your comrades share whether that be a barracks, a latrine, a trench or a crew served weapon. It promotes cohesiveness by sharing responsibility with others in your unit in accomplishing a task whether that task is walloping pots or being a member of a Fighting Patrol. And perhaps more importantly, it separates the team players from the cry babies. 'Nuff said.

Have fun in the Marines.

Peter


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## Hgrant (19 Feb 2005)

I never said that a clean ship isent a happy ship. All im saying is training and knowing your job should fair above everything. What good is a clean rifle if you dont know how to use it


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## ZipperHead (19 Feb 2005)

I'm thinking hgrant is here to make a bitch, slag anyone who questions him, and then slink off to whichever cave he crawled out of. Why a navy type (I'm assuming you're Navy, based on some of your comments: "clean ship", "stations")  would come to *ARMY.CA*  to whinge about his lot in life(wah, I have to clean!!!!) is beyond me, but is guess Navy.ca isn't up and running. Oh, could be because they are off doing training, or being deployed for the umpteenth time around the world. I guess he expects the Master Seamen and PO's to do all the cleaning, while he sits on his bunk, reading Soldier of Fortune, thinking about how much of a Rambo he could be.

If you can't figure out how to change your profile, here's a hint: look up, WAY up toward the top of the page.... look carefully for "P....R....O....F.....I....L......E" and click on it, and maybe, just maybe, if you have any brains and/or balls, you could post some pertinent info in there, so we could as a group determine if you are a man, or a mouse. I think I already know the answer, but once you are free and clear of the CF, the Marine Corps can make a man of you. Or not.....

I realize that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, so I should apologize for the above paragraph, but I won't. Sometimes a fella just has to have some fun.  >

Al


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## George Wallace (19 Feb 2005)

Hgrant said:
			
		

> I never said that a clean ship isent a happy ship. All im saying is training and knowing your job should fair above everything. What good is a clean rifle if you dont know how to use it



Lets just say that a dirty rifle may not fire when you need it to...

GW


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Feb 2005)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> Why a navy type (I'm assuming you're Navy, based on some of your comments: "clean ship", "stations") would come to *ARMY.CA*  to whinge about his lot in life(wah, I have to clean!!!!) is beyond me, but is guess Navy.ca isn't up and running.



Allan,

I'm sure you are aware that all elements, arms and trades are welcome here, as well as cadets and civilians. Each has it's own forum here and are welcome to visit and comment in whichever thread they please. As long as they stay in their lanes and follow the conduct guidelines. Including those about slagging others and starting flamewars. 

OK, let's put the thread back on track and cease the personal attacks.


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## ZipperHead (19 Feb 2005)

RecceGuy, I know that all are welcome (the secret handshake that is normally used by army guys is too hard to do over the internet  :-\), but I question why somebody would come to Army.ca, and not expect some form of abuse when they are crying into their hanky. They may be huggy-kissy in other "elements" but, so far, the army has rejected such modern means of consoling people. Ridicule and shame are still the SOP's for handling those that are more prone to whining than working. Call me a RTC dinosaur, but SOME of the old ways should stick around (whether the PC crowd likes it or not.......)

Face it, without these types, where would we sharpen our witty repartee??? 

Actually, I'm just curious what type of hard go "hgrant" has had so far to justify wanting to jump ship for the Corps? I know they have civvy contractors to handle all their janitorial requirements...... Or were those the civvy contractors doing the "interrogations"? One loses track of these types of things....

Al


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Feb 2005)

Allan,

(Does secret Corps grip  ) We get all kinds here as you know. Some are just bitter. Some have no real experience. Some just like to cause shyte. Normally, a short rebuttal is all that's necessary to make them quiet again (for awhile). We simply ask that people keep their comments on a civil level. Hell, if I can do it (for the most part, being one of the original dinosaurs) anyone should be able to.  ;D There's ways of making your point without going to the gutter.


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## Hgrant (19 Feb 2005)

Sorry. Wasn't trying to cause any shyte. I was just a little fed up with the way the military does things sometI'mes....im sure a lot of people feel the same way i do at some point. I apologize if i offended anyone in anyways. You are right Recce......... we should get to the point and let others talk about why they feel they want to quit or already have. I didn't come here to get into insult matches with anyone


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Feb 2005)

'Nuff said. Let's move on.


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## ZipperHead (19 Feb 2005)

I'll play nice in public now. Will reserve my slings for PM's (seeing as hgrant has figured out how to PM me with one....)

Al


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## Hgrant (19 Feb 2005)

Just be civil. I'm still fighting for the same side as you. Thanks for your 2 cents though.


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## Cloud Cover (19 Feb 2005)

Cleaning stations have always been a bit of source of stress in the Navy,  and there those who use the routine in a manner to belittle the role of OS etc. That being said, there are military and health related reasons for cleaning stations. [read Rule Britannia for the reasons behind cleaning stations on warships.] I worked in the cafeteria party on Restigouche for 3 months, I enjoyed the break from the EW shack and that goddam POS WLR!! When my turn was up on cafeteria party, I found I had a lot more respect for the necessity of cleaning the ship. It's all about attitude, and more specifically having a positive attitude to the things you are assigned to do. If the task is a shitty one, just suck it up, get it done and do a good job of it. Make no mistake, you will be recognized for that type of attitude, but if you carry on like a little shit about it, then you are making things worse than they have to be. My .02.


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## Hgrant (19 Feb 2005)

I give a 100% everyday....and i do the crap jobs with a smile on my face. As a junior rank i know my place. I thought this was a place where we could all discuse issues and sometimes if needed, a place to vent. I guess i was wrong.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Feb 2005)

Alright, I'm going to stop being nice. This is not what the thread is about. Knock it off, right now. Any more of this shyte and it get's locked. The thread has been fine to this point and it would be a shame to lock it cause some people just can't listen. Might even hand out some warnings.


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## Cloud Cover (19 Feb 2005)

I don't doubt that you put out 100 percent or more, and this has nothing to do with your "place."   I agreed with you that CS are not what foremost in your mind when you signed up, but it's part of military life. When 4sqn was all about training Ocdt's, guess what they were doing? Go ahead and vent, nobody's gonna flame you anymore for that ... and we're listening but that's   not going to change your situation. In whatever military you choose to settle into, there are always going to be things that piss you off .. it's all about the level of profesionalism that you believe in   ... and that's in addition to the level of professionalism that you display to your job and to your team mates and leaders. If you happen to be on a team of one ... I would think that actually simplifies the task, doesn't it?


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## mainerjohnthomas (19 Feb 2005)

I left in 94, I had finished my degree (on my dime), and was enlisting in the Regs as an officer when I hit a large speed bump.   At that time, my first choice, Infantry, second choice, Armour, and third choice, Signals were not open to me.   I was offered a number of options to be various forms of REMF, but not one in the combat arms.   I had served in the reserves since 88, and done enough time with the PPCLI and RCHA to decide that life in the combat arms was worth doing, life as a desk-jocky-in-uniform was not.   I have nothing against the fine people in the support arms, hell, I was a signalman myself, and did a lot of paper shuffling when I had to, but to serve your country in the combat arms is worth the sacrifice of your life (as in the potential rewards and freedoms of civilian life, not simply catching a round for the flag), and being an office weasle isn't.   At the same time, the Canadian gov't has NOT done its part to force employers to allow reserve soldiers the chance to honour their obligations and retain their job.   I was forced to chose between a career that would support my new wife and coming children, or continuing as a soldier.   I have always regretted the sacrifice, because the civilian world is much less than the one we all shared.   Civilians set the bar so low, and reach it so rarely it is often hard to understand them at all.   I have never been more alive than when I served, and never worked with finer people than my fellow soldiers, but the long drawdown that Canada has been doing since the fifties has ground the hope out of more soldiers than any enemy ever did.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Feb 2005)

Quote,_
 In whatever military you choose to settle into, there are always going to be things that piss you off ._

...actually in whatever career you follow,military or not.


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## TCBF (20 Feb 2005)

"..actually in whatever career you follow,military or not. " -Bruce Monkhouse

Too true, Bruce, 

To whit:

National Post, Saturday, Feb 19, 2005, page A3:

"WOMEN SUE ZOO OVER GORILLA BONDING TACTIC
Asked to display breasts" By Patricia Yollin

"The two women are seeking more than US$1-million in damages."

"...with the California Department of Fair Employment and Housing, in which they gave identical reasons for why they were fired:  "I refused to expose my breast to perform acts of bestiality with one of the gorillas."

Tom


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## perry (20 Feb 2005)

Well said, you took the words right out of my mouth.


Edited for content

Perry,

This portion of the thread was already addressed. I suggest you read things a little closer and follow what the Directing Staff say about continuing flame wars.


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## GSF523 (9 Mar 2005)

I had a great time in the reserves but my career either wasn't letting me have a chance to do alot either. But as time moved on i tried the test for the reg force nd my math killed me. i was going to join artillary but they tried to waver it since i had the infantry back ground and it hadn't been that long since i was out, but Ottawa wouldn't let it happen.  :'(  so then i was waiting for the test the next summer but i met my husband and agreed that it wouldn't be fair that i would be away alot and it would break up the relationship. But i still love to remember the days in Uniform.     :cam:


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## Kampfhamster (9 Mar 2005)

finished my time as a soldier on contract last December. Even though my boss wanted me to stay I decided against. 
Too many incompetent assholes, too many unkept promises from the politicians and the assholes from the staff, too many working hours (had a 45 hours per week contract but worked up to 75 hours per week on a regular base).

After all it was a great time, especially when I got my own platoon for the last four weeks. Although it was a lot of work and serious lack of training (was just a Sgt, never had more then 10 guys before), I loved it. 

Still have to finish my mandatory annual military services though.


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## Bic519 (10 Mar 2005)

From mainerjohnthomas 

"Civilians set the bar so low, and reach it so rarely it is often hard to understand them at all."

How so? Examples please.


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## jarko (10 Mar 2005)

Hello,

I will be starting basic on April 12, but i have a simple question that has been bothering me for a while, what will i do when i get out after 3 years. Right now I am only aiming for 3 years, who knows what will happen, maybe at the end i will make the army my life long career. But if i was to get out after 3 years I know i would be a different person. I am going for regular Infantry by the way. My plan was to go to the army for 3 years and later take college. But you never know..
 My question is to the soldiers that completed there contracts. Can you tell me what you did when you left the army??, where are you working now??, did the army help you?? and it what ways... 

Thanks


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## sigpig (10 Mar 2005)

I went back to school (SAIT) to study computer programming for two years and then got a job in that field. I joined the reserves a few months after getting out of the regs and stayed in during school and while I worked until I left Canada. I joined the reserves for both the money and the camaraderie, there really is nothing like it - both good and bad  

I am working as a programmer in Fort Lauderdale. I will always miss my days in my old reserve unit.


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## mainerjohnthomas (10 Mar 2005)

Bicque said:
			
		

> From mainerjohnthomas
> 
> "Civilians set the bar so low, and reach it so rarely it is often hard to understand them at all."
> 
> ...


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## TCBF (10 Mar 2005)

They don't believe in standing up for themselves or their neighbours because they are taught it is wrong.  That way, eventually, we will lose rights merely through disuse, and the social re-engineering of Canada into a one party socialist autocracy will be complete.

You don't think it was by accident that Fidel was at Trudeau's funeral, do you?

Tom


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## ZipperHead (10 Mar 2005)

Good post mainer! I'm with you all the way on what you said. Civvies are so quickly becoming sheep (bleating and shitting everywhere....) and heaven forbid if the RCMP were to go in with an advantage (armoured vehicle and automatic weapons) against a nut bar. Gotta be fair to the pyschopaths, I guess.

Al


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## pipesnake (10 Mar 2005)

I left because of the bull-shit. My goal was to go to the CAR. I was promised my jump course several times if I only did this that and the other thing. I did them all but there was always some excuse. I watched in fury as the FNG's got sent. I thought I was capable too having proved myself on the NECIC team and in various other ways. When it was time to re-enlist what do you think they promised me? JUMP COURSE just sign here! Ya right, give me some of that swamp land too. I looked forward to 17 more years of getting my chain yanked while I was getting paid shit and shot at. No thanks.

My NCO's kept telling me that I wouldn't make it in the real world and that I would be back. Maybe they thought that about themselves but leaving didn't scare me, just like joining didn't or anything in between. After college was done and I had been working for bit I thought about coming back as an officer but I had a new family then and couldn't afford the pay cut.


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## PJ D-Dog (10 Mar 2005)

Hgrant said:
			
		

> I don't know about you guys.......but i want to get out bad. This military isn't a military. I know I'm making everyone mad by saying this, but it is a glorified welfare. I'm leaving to join the US Marines and i have never been happier with my life. I want occupational experience and i can not get it in this military. all this military promotes is Drinking and having a good time. I joined to be a soldier and its to bad i have to change my citizenship to do it.



Don't feel bad.  I did 11 years in the CF and then I joined the Marine Corps.  It's the best thing I ever did.  I don't regret a single day I served in the Army but it was really the death of a thousand cuts.  I got tired of being forced into becoming a civil servant dressed in green.  I lost a lot of friends who did not agree with my decision to leave Canada for what I consider to be a greener pasture.

Marine Corps training is outstanding, The sense of belonging is unparalelled and we are funded a let better than the CF.  However, there is no Regimental Mess system and I miss that.  You'll have a great time.

Semper Fi

PJ D-Dog


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## Meridian (11 Mar 2005)

Curious.... Why are all these people joining the USMC...  Are you aligned with the values that the US present? Or do you just wanna drive cool gucci gear and be part  of a world-renowned force that gets deployed all the time?

Im not criticizing, but seriously asking... One of the reasons I originally joined the forces was patriotism and supporting Canadian Values.. which in my opinion can differ significantly from the US, at least ineans if not end...  My only justification for going US forces in my mind is the professionalism and funding....  but is that really a good enough reason?

Is the military just a career like any other?


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## Pte. Bloggins (11 Mar 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Yet, the army seems to think that I want to be an unpaid troop, I get paid sometimes, usually not in the right ammount, never by direct deposit etc etc. Same old story for reservists.



Well that's not right, and shouldn't be the usual for reservists. I know whenever I don't get paid the correct amount, I'm right in the orderly room pestering the clerks until they get it sorted out. Or use your chain of command to sort it out for you.

You should ALWAYS be getting paid, in FULL. The reserves is a job like any other. If you're not getting paid, something's very wrong.


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## Harris (11 Mar 2005)

I agree with Sig Bloggins, if your not getting paid properly and on time get the chain of command involved.  That is totally unacceptable.


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## Kat Stevens (11 Mar 2005)

This may kick over a giant anthill here, but, onward.  To my way of thinking, if your loyalty can be purchased with the promise of cool kit and a bottomless barrell of cash, well, there's a word for that.... it's "mercenary"...  Just MHO

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Mar 2005)

Actually,I agree with you, that is exactlly what it would be. Much as I am a supporter of our southern nieghbor, there would be no "blood ties" like I have to this great land and I would just be "selling" myself.[and of course, this goes for other countries as well]


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## mainerjohnthomas (11 Mar 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> This may kick over a giant anthill here, but, onward.   To my way of thinking, if your loyalty can be purchased with the promise of cool kit and a bottomless barrell of cash, well, there's a word for that.... it's "mercenary"...   Just MHO
> 
> CHIMO,   Kat




        Agreed in principle, but there have been many occasions when Canadians and Americans have crossed the line to join each others services to fight the wars they feel their own country should be, but isn't.   I have friends who fought with the US in Vietnam, Canadian volunteers in a war that the US citizens themselves were deeply divided on.   My Grandfather likewise served with many fine Americans who joined the Canadian Army to fight the war against the Nazi's that their own leaders had decided to sit out (prior to the end of '41 when they got their last pre 9-11 wakeup call).   A person who doesn't care who they fight for is a mercenary.   A person who for love of his country, decides to defend it by standing with its allies, even when his own govornment will not, may be a patriot too.   Canadians who fought the Falangists and their German backers in the Spanish Civil war passed their experiences of German weapons and tactics on to our troops when we were facing the same foe in France.   Canadians who had served in Vietnam offered their experience for our troops training for a new generation of low intensity conflict.   Experience in wartime is a valuable asset for any armed forces.   If some Canadians gain that experience serving with the UK or US, and then chose to serve the CF to pass it along, it strengthens us.


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## patrick666 (11 Mar 2005)

"Cannon fodder" is a good term for them.


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## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2005)

Well said. I'll be doing my time in the CF Regs soon. Guess I'll see what to do after that contract is up, be it stay..or move on.


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## Kat Stevens (11 Mar 2005)

mainerjohnthomas said:
			
		

> Experience in wartime is a valuable asset for any armed forces.  If some Canadians gain that experience serving with the UK or US, and then chose to serve the CF to pass it along, it strengthens us.


Valid point. However, the tone here seems to be along the lines of "Canadian army sucks, I'm gonna join the Rangers/Marines/Delta etc... coz they get lots of neat stuff".  That smacks of personal gain, therefore, by definition, mercenary.   Again, IMHO

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2005)

Can you blame people for growing tired of being jerked around, when there are places where you can get what you want? I know a Sgt. who got his Para course after 12 years of waiting, I sure in hell dont plan to be waiting 12 years for it.


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## Kat Stevens (11 Mar 2005)

I think you're missing my point.  To sell your loyalty to another country for personal gain, is a mercenary act.  In this context (another anthill),  the French Foreign Legion are exactly that: a mercenary force.  That was my ONLY point...

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2005)

I dont really think they're selling themselves. If that would be the case, my offering of my able body to the Canadian Military is just as much an act of "selling myself". Whether I live here or not, that Canadian Citienship paper means nothing to me. Its what I bellieve in my heart that makes me a Canadian, and if I felt serving the US was doing my part, I wouldnt have a problem with it. You're definition of Mercenary is clearly different than mine. If they're in it for the money, than yes its Mercenary acts. But I dont think thats why people are leaving the CF for the USMC


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## Kat Stevens (11 Mar 2005)

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> I don't really think they're selling themselves. If that would be the case, my offering of my able body to the Canadian Military is just as much an act of "selling myself". Whether I live here or not, that Canadian Citizenship paper means nothing to me. Its what I believe in my heart that makes me a Canadian.


Well, that piece of paper means a heck of a lot to me.  I have dual citizenship, UK and Canada.  Canada has been my home since I was 12 years old.  When the time came to serve, there was no question.  My family are 4 generations of Guardsmen back in Britain, and they have loads of cool kit and exotic travel destinations.  That was never a consideration;  I live in Canada, I serve Canada...

CHIMO,  Kat

PS   I have taken this thread badly off course, apologies, Kat


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## PJ D-Dog (11 Mar 2005)

I would like to address some the comments/concerns that some of you have expressed about Canadian soldiers defecting south of the border to join the US Marines.

I would not call them mercenaries or disloyal.   In my case, it had to do with what the CF was becoming and how soldiers were being treated.   I am very proud to have served in the CF and I have no regrets of ever having served.   I tell my friends of the good time I had in the CF all the time.   My decision to leave was based on the fact that I could no longer morally support what was taking place in the Army.

I joined the militia in 1989 when I was a college student.   After I finished college, I basically became a permanent reservist due to not being able to get a good paying full-time job.   I was making more in the reserves working part-time (three weeks a month in the fall, winter and spring) and full-time in the summer than what I could make on civi street.   Later, I went to a Class B-A contract.

For a long time I believed in what I was doing.   I ate, slept and drank the stuff.   I couldn't get enough of the artillery and the military.   As time progressed, I discovered that the system was broken and that our soldiers were not being looked after.   Young gunners were not getting paid and there didn't seem to be anything we could do to fix it.   We lost a lot of good soldiers because the IRRPS system didn't work.   Only after RPSR came in that we were finally able to retain them by paying them on time.

The training was lacking and budgets were tight.   Going to the field with only 50 rounds of 105 ammo for the whole exercise was ridiculous. Gunners became disinterested because it was not as challenging as they would have hoped.   Equipment failed constantly and the gear was old and tired.   I remember how our entire fleet of vehicles was grounded (on more than three occasions) because there was no money in the budget for the mechanics from Gagetown to come and repair them.

We were seriously undermanned and I did five jobs and worked 16 hour days.   Although I wanted to continue serving in the military, I really didn't know how make things better.   I applied to transfer to the Regular Force.   At that time, I was a Sgt and had eight years under my belt.   I also had every artillery QL4 going and was teaching the Basic Arty Tech course to both regular and reserve soldiers.   The recruiting center offered me recruit school by pass, battle school by pass and my arty driver wheel at the rank of private.   I was not ready to give up most of my qualifications in exchange for being a basic gun bunny.   If I could train the regular force, why couldn't I retain that course?   There was no answer and no one really cared.

In 1999, I was working in Gagetown with the G-3 branch.   I traveled extensively throughout Canada and the US.   On one trip to Ottawa, I had garbage thrown at me by a passerby and as he asked â Å“who you gonna kill today soldier boyâ ?.   Being in uniform, while walking to work, I just ignored the incident for fear of offending someone or creating a negative image for the CF.   I also had someone spit at me in Ottawa.

A month later, I traveled to the US and did some work at the Canadian Embassy.   As I walked to my hotel, I was stopped by six people who thanked me for serving.   When I mentioned I was Canadian, they all had the same comment â Å“Canada has an army?â ?.   They all told me that it didn't matter as it took guts to serve in any military that was a friend of the US.

At one point in 1999, I was having a problem exchanging my combat boots at base supply.   They had run out of my size (eight and a half) and didn't expect any in for some time.   I was simply told to return every day to check and see if there was a shipment.   I literally had no thread left on my boots and had been trying to get new pairs for months.   I ended up in the field with the Chief Warrant Officer's course form Ottawa and met with the CWO of the CF.   I asked him about the problem with uniform acquisitions and the how I couldn't exchange my boots due to lack of a common size.   His response contained, in part, something about the federal budget, the Chief of Defense Staff's name, and a speech made by Queen Elizabeth in 1953 when she visited the Van Doos.   I never got an answer to my question.

As a reservist in Gagetown on Class B-A working for the G3, I was paid 85 per cent of the regular force wage with no pension benefits.   I was, however, held to the same regular force standard, with the same level of responsibility and accountability and treated like garbage by regular force soldiers (once they discovered I was in the militia).

On one trip to the US, I met up with some Marines and they showed me around their base and I was shocked to discover there was a military place in the world that adhered to the same principles as I did.

Before leaving the CF, I did a lot of soul searching and research.   I read everything I could find about the Marines.   I discovered that the Marine Corps institutionalized the values of honor, courage and commitment, by which I lived my life.   At that point, I knew where I needed to be.   The CF had fallen below the mark and after my encounter with the CWO of the CF, I no longer had any faith in our leadership.   The leadership failings of the CF are too numerous to recount.   Everything form the Airborne Regiment public hearings on CBC to the shredding of medical documents detailing soldiers' exposure to bauxite while on OP Harmony in Croatia in 1993-94.   The one that took the cake was the soldier who got a sex change operation paid for the CF because he was suffering from gender dysphoria and became a woman....and all of it aired on a CBC documentary.   Yet the CF couldn't pay for laser eye correction for soldiers who had to go around wearing coke bottles for glasses.

I am very much attached to Canada, although I am now a naturalized US citizen.   I hold dual citizenship.   I lived in Canada for 30 years and that will always be with me forever.   My parents are Canadian as is my wife.   I still speak French at home with my wife (we never speak English to each other) and I still keep track of some Canadian news.   It's not something that washes away in the shower.   I am not a mercenary because I don't get paid enough as a Marine to qualify as one.   My loyalty cannot be purchased.   The Marines never gave me money to join.   I have no intentions of ever joining any other branch of service again in any country.   My loyalty lies to my fellow Marines, to my Corps, to the US and to my Canadian lineage, heritage, language and culture.   I truly believe that helping to keep America safe helps to keep Canada safe as well.   That might be a big pill to swallow but I think it's true.

Sorry for the long tirade but I just wanted to make a point.

Regards,

PJ D-Dog


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## dutchie (11 Mar 2005)

I wouldn't call joining the US Army or the UK Army disloyal, a defection, or anything of the like. Those armies deploy..a lot. I have friends who have joined either the Brits or the US forces, and there reasons went something like: "I want to go to an army that will actually send me as the leading element, not playing a supporting role." One guy wanted Iraq, not an endless rotation to Bosnia (left pre-9/11). One guy went US Army, and another the Highlanders. Both are doing great. Last I heard, the Brit was heading to Iraq, and the American was going to US Special Forces. Sounds like they got what they wanted. 

The US and to a lesser extent Britain are the premier choices for those that want to go to war. Their operational tempo is high, and their Governments don;t 'dither' when deciding whether or not to go.


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## ZipperHead (11 Mar 2005)

Excellent post PJ D-dog!! 

While I agree somewhat with Kat on the mercenary idea (too many people have sold themselves out, emotionally, financially and physically by going to another country for employment .... I despise young kids, who once they get their degree, run off to the high paying jobs in the States, without a thought to the fact that Canada paid for all their public schooling, and subsidized their secondary education (more than likely). On the subject of joining another country's military, however, I feel that as long as you are still serving in one of Canada's allies (NATO, or a Commonwealth country) you are still serving in the basic interests of what we hold dear: freedom for all.

In 1991, I came relatively close to jumping ship to join the USMC. I was disgusted with how our government decided to sit out ground combat in Gulf War 1. I was travelling through the US (I drove from New Brunswick to BC, and took a side trip to visit an ex-girlfriend who I met through cadets (she was in JROTC at the time, and I met her at Vernon cadet camp, and she was on leave from the Corps (she was a helicopter mechanic)). Anyway, I popped in the USMC recruiting center in Everett, Wahington and asked how I'd be able to join up, gain citizenship, if any of my courses were of use, etc, etc. The recruiter was actually quite shocked that I would want to quit our military, and join theirs. He wasn't experienced in dealing with Canadians, as most Canucks from BC travelled just across the border to Bellingham, and signed up there. That wasn't on my route out to New Brunswick, so I decided to drive east and find a recruiting center in another state to try to give me some info. Short story long, I never did apply, so I don't know where I'd be right now, but I wonder sometimes. 

I think dissatisfaction with our military and government have probably pushed a lot of good soldiers south, but it worries me (with this current Administration) if dying for the US is what they had in mind. I know that Canadians can be indifferent or sometimes hostile to our soldiers (a sidetrack: my buddy, who makes Vin Diesel look small, was on leave back in the late 80's to Vancouver Island, and was travelling in DEU's (old tan ones). Anyway, he was on a ferry, and an old woman (about 60) asked him if he was in the military: "Yes ma'am!!!" he replied. She spit right in his face. Mind you, where we are from (my buddy and I) she was probably a draft dodger's wife, so she was probably of that era who hated the military.), but after seeing the outpouring of emotion after the friendly fire bombing in A'stan in '02 (which, if you are cynical, which I am, could have been more anger at the US than sympathy for our soldiers who were killed), it sometimes takes something tragic to wake people up. Witness the killing of the 4 RCMP..... 

We all have to die sometime, and we can't pick and choose our wars to fight (well, I guess some people do, but those are true mercenaries, I guess), and I don't know how many wars have ever truly been "just" (if you peel back the propoganda, even on the "popular" wars, it usually boils down to money, power and a country's interests (usually resources)). An example of this, looking at the US as an example, is how long it took for them to enter the Balkans (better than 4 years), WWII (2 years), WWI (3 years), zero interest in Rwanda, Sudan, Ethiopia, etc. I don't mean for this to be a critique of the US, but I would rather die for something noble (no matter how flawed) such as saving people from genocide, fascism, Nazis, etc than having cheap oil. And right now, I feel sorry for the soldiers fighting and dying in Iraq, as I feel they have been let down by their country's leadership into fighting to serve the hierarchy's own interests.

Having said all that, I still toy with the idea of leaving all that I have done here behind, and starting fresh in the US military (or perhaps the UK or Australian miltary) doing something different from what we have the opportunity to do here. Apache pilot has always struck my fancy, or crewing an M1A2. No matter how I feel that the US gov't is sticking it to their soldiers right now, I can't help but feel I have been spreading my own ass-cheeks for the last 17 years for our gov't to stick it to us by disregarding our needs (equipment, training, overall funding) and sticking us wherever they feel would make them look good (the whole peacekeeping thing is getting old, and when I hear young officers referring to our military as peacekeepers, I know the damage has been done.......).

Anyway, I understand the allure of going off and trying something different, and good on anyone has done it, and I also understand all those that have stayed on with our military ("dance with who bring ya"). Speaking of mercenary, and peacekeepers, I remember watching a news clip a whole bunch of years ago, and an older Cpl was talking about how he was going to spend the money he made on tour on a new house, and was talking about all that, and not the mission (he was headed off to his second tour of Bosnia). This would have been after I went to Cyprus, but before I went to Bosnia. I was thinking: "How mercenary. He should be talking about how honoured he should be to serve Canada, save people, etc, etc". Then I went on my first tour, and then I was talking about how I would spend the money from my second tour in the exact same way as buddy. Idealism is usually rapidly replaced by realism. Nobody in Canada (or in Bosnia) wouldn't have given a shit if I went up in a pink mist from an AP mine, so may as well make the most of what you get for your efforts (in this case, money). 

I'm also reminded of a saying I heard: "If you're NOT a socialist in your 20's, you have no heart. If you ARE a socialist in your 40's, you have no brain". 

Al


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## East Side Soprano (19 Mar 2005)

Great post PJ D-Dog!
May I ask, how did you get a Green Card or Permanent Resident Status to join the Marines? Di


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## Infanteer (19 Mar 2005)

Bravo Zulu PJ.

Although I can see that Kat is being honest with his question rather then inflammatory, I'll disagree with him.

Being a professional soldier is more of an individual matter then a communal one.  Some people find more professional satisfaction in the careers by moving on the greener pastures.  Is an executive or an academic a "mercenary" if they head off to the US or Britain and put their abilities and their income tax into a different puddle?

A good buddy of mine and forum member here quit the CF after tour and went down to the US.  He's doing some highspeed stuff now (SOF) and is having a blast with the professional challenges he is facing.  Good on him - when the CF loses good soldiers to other militaries, it is a "free market" way of telling us we better (as a country) put more into attracting the best to the profession.

Anyways, we're all on the same team anyways - I'm sure buddy in the US Army is doing more to protect Canada then the CF is capable of at the moment....


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## mainerjohnthomas (19 Mar 2005)

It would be hard to argue that serving allied militaries is dishonourable, when my own family history is full of officers who served the Indian Teritorial Infantry, and Bengal Lancers.  Proffessional British trained officers were in demand in the world, and given a military education, and the need to make your way in the world, it was expected you would follow your profession and seek your fortune.  My own father served as a mercenary in Angola when service in the Congo for the UN (arguably also mercenary service) left him feeling less than welcome by civilian Canada.  Several soldiers that I served with went on to US or UK service.  They had done their service to their country, and wished to follow their profession in forces where they would have the opportunity to use their skills and training in warfighting, rather than scorekeeping (as UN peacekeeping was known to us).  UN service exposes our personel to risk, with little chance of making a difference.  It is also the most common reason my fellow soldiers gave for what made them think fighting for someone else was a good idea.  The only thing worse than a warzone, is a warzone your ROE forbid you to change.  The US and UK offer the chance to finish the job.  As a soldier that is profoundly attractive.  If the CF is deployed and fought like a "real army" not a glorified referee, then we will keep more personel.  We have a real army, we just don't have the political will to let it prove it.  Give the army missions it can take real pride in, like Afghanistan rather than Kosovo, and we will keep more troops.  Let our soldiers see their actions lead to real change, and we will regain the pride in our colours that our grandfathers had.   Until then, many of our best will follow their profession into other armies that see more agressive deployment.


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## Victor (20 Mar 2005)

I had enough.   3 bases had closed on me. I returned fm Golan to my base in Nanaimo only to find I'm on a posting msg origniating fm CFS Esquimalt telling me I'm now on my way to a base in AB (which closed in 97).   I'm army not a navy lad.
No one seemed to know how to spell my last name.   2 yrs without a proper PER. So when I went to my new posting which closed in '97, my Chief Comm Officer advised me that since all my previous bosses have retired & that he's retiring I should redress my PER concerns.   He told me it won't help me but it may help someone else.   
When my release was in I was denied SCAN because I was in the field when the BPSO was running her semi annual seminars.   She was later reassigned.  She had done this to many others.  
Mail lost, pays lost, PERs lost or confused for someone else. Posted to a French Tank Recce Pl because everyone thought I was Francophone.   I had to instruct the ops of new eqpt but was repremanded because I couldn't comm well enough.....I'm english w/Irish backgrd.   On & on.
I realized I shouldn't have spent as long as I did.   I was middle of the road in knowledge & was witnessing solders much better than me being denied promotions.
Then our base closed.   A huge base. With a huge civilian following. A politioans pen ink caused most of this disturbance.
This is the bad stuff.   No way does this even come close the the Great stuff. But you asked.
VVV


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## Alien1 (27 Mar 2005)

Sort answer? I've done my time, that's all. 20 year for my country was enough. The exact magic number to get you pension and choke your chicken the rest of your life. I know, I know, I'm kidding because this low pension in Canada give you the chance to please yourself for a few weeks only. Unless you do like me! Don't put all your eggs in the same bucket. A soon you join, prepare your own pension plan. Don't be used by the army but use the army to achieve a next step. My first five years in the army I was working 80 hours a week and I liked it. I once realised that why should I have the same salary than my co-worker who works 30 hours a week? I stopped being a fool and limit my working time for the army at 40 hours a week. What should I do after being so hyperactive with leadership?? Found another job on weekend? Yes, why not. I had a lot of job that gave me more responsibility in few weeks than my army job after 15 years. The bad part of it, I lost so many jobs at $20 an hour to leave on training or for the UN but it's OK, it's the part of the game. I realised then that I need my own company to be able to leave anytime for the army and keep my job. Then real estate came. When I got retired at 37, I had so many buildings that my monthly income was higher that any general in this army. Thanks god that their poor knowledge of human relation and personnel management made me realise that there is life outside army. Now I can choke my chicken in Hawaii the rest of my life. The secret. Be independent. Don't depend of the army. Always learn new thing, go back to school, have other jobs to increase you competency and your independence, have a social and professional life outside, have the power on your side to say ''I quit''. That's how they can control you. They are keeping you dependant of ''the family''.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Mar 2005)

Spending that money well in the Ukraine? :

Hey KevinB, I have need of your BS flag.


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## Kat Stevens (27 Mar 2005)

I myself walked into the CO's office and laid it out for him: " lissen here, Steve-O," I sez. "this going on exercise and working all day crap has got to stop" I sez.  " All this army crap is putting a severe cramp into my syncronized swimming carreer, so I'll only be showing up 3 days a week, capisce?"

It's just that easy, I recommend it for anyone who's tired of long hours... ;D

CHIMO, Kat


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Mar 2005)

YOU' RE a syncronized swimmer?....... like OMG ,I thought I was the only one.........
Thanks for the hoot.


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## Kat Stevens (27 Mar 2005)

Yeah, but the one piece just doesn't look that great any more... 

CHIMO,  Kat


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## 1feral1 (27 Mar 2005)

I did not quit, but discharged from the CF, and enlisted in another country's army within 30 days, where since that country is a Commonwealth country, it was then classed as a re-enlistment.

I view the term quitting as giving up, and although I have moved on for a better life here I am no quitter by any means.

In every walk of like there are quitters including the Defence Force. So maybe the word should be ammended from 'quitting' to 'discharging'.

Cheers,

Wes


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## 1feral1 (27 Mar 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> I would not call them mercenaries or disloyal.



Good post Mate! I know exactly where you are coming from.

Cheers,

Wes


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## kincanucks (28 Mar 2005)

All of a sudden I have this urge to learn to play The Battle Hymn of The Republic on my electric guitar.


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## Infanteer (28 Mar 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> All of a sudden I have this urge to learn to play The Battle Hymn of The Republic on my electric guitar.



I tried to learn it on my Fiddle - it's pretty hard....


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