# CF 18 loses parts over Lake Ontario



## The_Falcon (11 Jul 2005)

Heard this on the radio this morning, couldn't find anything posted.  Apparently a CF18 lost a metre long luggage door while doing a flyby of the Indy.


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## OHara (11 Jul 2005)

This is embarassing. It is sad when Canada only has 124 CF18's and they cant even keep them running or maitnanced properly. This looks really good on Canadas International apperance.


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## Krazy-P (11 Jul 2005)

well at least they didnt drop any missiles off the wings this time.lol


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## Sam69 (11 Jul 2005)

OHara said:
			
		

> This is embarassing. It is sad when Canada only has 124 CF18's and they cant even keep them running or maitnanced properly. This looks really good on Canadas International apperance.



This is a bunch of useless speculation and FUD. The initial reports are that it was a door off a luggage pod that fell off. Hardly a core piece of the aircraft or an indication of poor operating condition. A number of things could have caused a door to fail like that including a failure to close it properly.

Sam


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## scm77 (11 Jul 2005)

*CF-18 drops door in flyby*

 A DRAMATIC kickoff to the Molson Indy could have ended disastrously after a piece of a CF-18 fighter jet fell off during a flyby over Lake Ontario yesterday.

Two fighter jets flew over tens of thousands of Indy spectators yesterday afternoon in another display of high-speed power. But while travelling over Lake Ontario, the door to the luggage pod on one of the jets fell off and landed in the water, a military spokesman said. Though pleasure boaters dotted the lake, no one was hurt.

'WE'RE FORTUNATE'

"We've launched an initial flight safety investigation to find out what happened," said Capt. Julie Roberge of 3 Wing Bagotville military base in Saguenay, Quebec. "We think it was a mechanical malfunction."

Roberge said the piece is almost a metre long and was recovered by the Toronto Police Marine Unit.

After realizing something was wrong during the flyby, the pilots returned to Pearson airport.

Because the piece isn't an important part of the aircraft, the pilots flew the jets back to Quebec yesterday afternoon, where they'll be examined, Roberge said.

"We're really fortunate nothing happened," Roberge said. 

http://torontosun.com/News/TorontoAndGTA/2005/07/11/pf-1126061.html


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Jul 2005)

O'hara unless you are an investigator with the TSB, I would suggest comments like that should be kept to yourself.


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## Slim (11 Jul 2005)

OHara said:
			
		

> This is embarassing. It is sad when Canada only has 124 CF18's and they cant even keep them running or maitnanced properly. This looks really good on Canadas International apperance.



OHara

You do not have all the faacts so, as others have asked you to, I'm making it official. Stop idle speculation, which only leads to a bunch of mis-enformed ideas and guesses...Which the media love to portray as the truth.

They're good enough at it on their own and do not need your help.

Also I would like you to fill out your profile out of courtesy to others here at the site. 

Slim


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## OHara (11 Jul 2005)

Ok, I am more or less worried about the Image we put forth on other Country's... Alot of the U.S Poplulation (I am not saying all) think of Canadas military as crappy for lack of better terms and what does a hunk of sheet metal braking off of one of our 120 some odd F18's look like to them? Especially on International Television. I am just saying I personally dont like to hear people talking garbage about *our country* Its just my opinion. We should keep a good image especially with the publicity we have been getting in the past couple of years.


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## Roy Harding (11 Jul 2005)

OHara said:
			
		

> Ok, I am more or less worried about the Image we put forth on other Country's... Alot of the U.S Poplulation (I am not saying all) think of Canadas military as crappy for lack of better terms and what does a hunk of sheet metal braking off of one of our 120 some odd F18's look like to them? Especially on International Television. I am just saying I personally dont like to hear people talking garbage about *our country* Its just my opinion. We should keep a good image especially with the publicity we have been getting in the past couple of years.



Son;

The piece of metal fell off the damned plane.  This is a FACT.  And so far, is the ONLY fact known.  

What would you do to "preserve our image"?  Deny that anything fell?


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## OHara (11 Jul 2005)

Its a start... No But seriously. We need to do more to keep the fighters maintained.


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## crazyleggs (11 Jul 2005)

OHara said:
			
		

> Its a start... No But seriously. We need to do more to keep the fighters maintained.



You're getting way out of line.  We have the best maintainers and flyers in the world.  Stuff like that will happen, seems to me that it is most likely human error (improper latching, just a guess).

Do you treat your C-7 like crap?  Trust me, the CF-188 techs are the best Hornet techs in the world.

BTW, we are down to less than 80 operational Hornets now.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2005)

OHara said:
			
		

> Its a start... No But seriously. We need to do more to keep the fighters maintained.



You have absolutley no idea what it takes to maintain an aircraft, nor are you aware of the level at which we maintain ours. You insult all the 500 trades with your stupid comment. 

You've been warned on other threads about staying in your lane and yapping off about things which you don't understand. Again, I'll ask you to go back and read the Forum Guidelines and then adhere to them. I doubt that you'll be warned again. Your riding a rocket here son.


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## Allen (11 Jul 2005)

How do you know our maintenance is inadequate? What source are you relyng on for that info?

Listen, fighters have accidents all the time in the US and they don't blow it out of proportion. An F-16 crashed a few weeks ago in Colorado due to a possible engine fire. They are calmly proceeding with the investigation, not prematurely screaming "poor maintenance".

Other countries have enough to worry about with their own aircraft incidents, they don't worry about Canada. Let's take all possible precautions, but put this in perspective.


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## mover1 (11 Jul 2005)

Having a been exposed to the fighter world for a long while. And having the opportunity and pleasure to go not only on exercise and operation with them. I can tell you that the "Luggage pod" is not an in dispenable piece of equipment. It is a luggage pod which gets treated and handled with about the same respect as a barrack box. 

The techs in the fighter Sqns are some of the most ingenious and kn owlageable people in their fields. I have the utmost respect for them and the pilots who fly the F-18. I have seen and participated in some amazing stuff with them. To say that the maintence is poor is tangable to fighting words. Yes they would like newer A/C but who wouldn't. Yes they would like more spare parts.  But remember this. The CF-18 has been flying "operationally" over OUR skies since Sept 11. 

This news is just a flash in the pan thing done by some ingenious reporter filing a story on something that is alongside of  and on the same lines aS the fatal crash in Sask. Its a common story but really no big whoop. Things fall off of planes every day. (just ask the airborne  ;D). Flight safety is always and will always be a major factor in day to day operations and you can be sure that they will be out to investigate this one. 

For those of you with Din acces this link has some very interesting reads.
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/dfs/docs/Reports/fti_e.asp

For others here without you can get started on seeing something along the same lines here.
http://www.elchineroconcepts.com/C130.htm


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Things fall off of planes every day.



Like those big green or blue chunks of smelly ice that crash through your roof. ;D


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## Krazy-P (11 Jul 2005)

trust me, when it comes to maintenance our techs, myself included, give 110 percent all the time. its not like a car where you can stop on the side of the road if your engine fails.


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## jmacleod (11 Jul 2005)

First McDonnell-Douglas Northrop F-18A Hornet came into CF strength in July 1982. It became
the CF-18A Hornet - bureaucrats in Ottawa objected to the name Hornet, but the name stuck.
There have been some structural problems with the aircraft over the years. Dr. Orest Cochkanoff
Ph.D, Faculty of Engineering Dalhousie University undertook a Study (which to my knowledge
remains Classified) Dr. Cochkanoff was senior Airframe Evaluator at CEPE, Ottawa for some years
- won't speculate what "fell off" the aircraft, but if it was in fact a major air incident, the aircraft
would not be here. The F-18 USMC is rated as their top line air combat aircraft. In 1982 it cost
Canadian taxpayers $29 million (US) - the new version Super Hornet, (Boeing Aircraft Corporation)
costs $57 million. CF Maintenance has always impressed me, don't agree with contracting out
aircraft maintenence, but have advocated AF Techs be given the training and opportunities at
public expense to upgrade to TC Certification as AME's (CF is listening). MacLeod


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## medic65726 (11 Jul 2005)

I've read the reports on a number of aircraft incidents involving hatch and cover failures (which occur not infrequently) and the crews generally suggest there was some element of mechanical failure. However, in the subsequent investigations by maintenance personnel as well as the aircraft manufacturers there is rarely any fault found. Occasionally reccomendations are made as to changes such as increasing latch tension, but usually the incidents are down to good old fashioned human error. Not pointing any fingers here, but the most likely culprit in incidents like this is the Pilot. As these sort of incidents go, this was rather minor. There have been incidents like this in the past, that have brought down the aircraft, although that is much more commin in rotor wing flight, than fixed wing.
Just my 2 cents.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Jul 2005)

Until a cause is actually determined mere speculation is not helping. This has already been pointed out to another poster, Medic65726, please follow the same advice.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2005)

It's a good thing his Pepto Bismol, inflatable sheep and '51 Chateau Cabernet didn't fly out of the open luggage bin too ;D


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## TCBF (11 Jul 2005)

"It's a good thing his Pepto Bismol, inflatable sheep and '51 Chateau Cabernet didn't fly out of the open luggage bin too "

- Not to mention all of the Lobsters:  "ONE THOUSAND, TWO THOUSAND, THREE THOUSAND, FOUR THOUSAND, CHECK CANOPY..  Wait!  I'm a freakin LOBSTER!  What am I doing here ahhhhhhhhhhh...."


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## aesop081 (11 Jul 2005)

jmacleod said:
			
		

> First McDonnell-Douglas Northrop F-18A Hornet came into CF strength in July 1982. It became
> the CF-18A Hornet -



The US designation is F/A-18A Hornet...the Canadian designation is CF-188


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## Inch (11 Jul 2005)

Medic65726 said:
			
		

> There have been incidents like this in the past, that have brought down the aircraft, although that is much more commin in rotor wing flight, than fixed wing.
> Just my 2 cents.



You've got proof of that? I fly helos and an open compartment on a helo isn't a huge concern, hell, we fly with the windows open all the time and the door open on occasion. Speed is the problem when your aerodynamics are changed (ie open cargo compartment, etc), since speed isn't a huge factor in helos, open compartment aren't usually a problem either unless it's something that can contact the rotor.

and MacLeod, it's officially known as the CF-188A/B. You should know that all our aircraft have 2 letter and 3 number identifiers.


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## mover1 (11 Jul 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It's a good thing his Pepto Bismol, inflatable sheep and '51 Chateau Cabernet didn't fly out of the open luggage bin too ;D



And I always get slammed for making irrelevant posts. 

Actually I belive with the recent upgrades its now being called the  CF-18M

Note: The CF-18 is officially designated the â Å“CF188â ? in Canadian use, although that identity is rarely employed except in the most official or technical documentation.) (quote from the official airforce web site)


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## Inch (11 Jul 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> Note: The CF-18 is officially designated the â Å“CF188â ? in Canadian use, although that identity is rarely employed except in the most official or technical documentation.) (quote from the official airforce web site)



Yes true, like pilot log books that we fill out after every flight.


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## Sam69 (11 Jul 2005)

jmacleod said:
			
		

> First McDonnell-Douglas Northrop F-18A Hornet came into CF strength in July 1982. It became
> the CF-18A Hornet



Just to jump on the pedant bandwagon - because I delight in such things - the first CF-188 delivered to the CF was a "B" model and became the CF-188B.

Sam


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## Gill557 (11 Jul 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It's a good thing his Pepto Bismol, inflatable sheep and '51 Chateau Cabernet didn't fly out of the open luggage bin too ;D



Or maybe his golf clubs or tennis racket.   ;D  LOL


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## mover1 (11 Jul 2005)

These are from the Bi weekly safety breifs. this one from the 16-30 June. 
Sea King
AIRFRAME:   UNSECURED DRIVESHAFT COVER: During the pre-flight walk around, the driveshaft cover was found unsecured by a member of the start crew. 

Griffon
OIL CAP FOUND INSECURE:   While conducting the Pre Flight Inspection, the Flight Engineer noticed the 42 degree Tail Rotor Gear Box Cap appeared insecure. 

THINGS FALLING OFF AIRCRAFT/TFOA:   While ferrying the helicopter from Borden to Calgary, the crew felt a disturbance in the controls (moreso in the cyclic than in the pedals). Rather than simply attributing it to turbulence (possible bird strike?), they elected to conduct a precautionary ldg to a field loc so as to carry out a visual inspection. Visual inspection conducted with engines at idle, nothing abnormal noted. Crew elected to continue to Regina where, upon shutdown, it was discovered that the mast rubber boot was missing. Also, the tail rotor red blade had some black streaks on it as well as a dent roughly the size of a quarter.


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## mover1 (11 Jul 2005)

BTW Golf Clubs wont fit in the luggage pod.  ^-^


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> And I always get slammed for making irrelevant posts.



C'mon now, not all the time  



			
				mover1 said:
			
		

> BTW Golf Clubs wont fit in the luggage pod.   ^-^



Must be losing the ol' knowhow. We used to be able to fit two sets into the pod we fastened to the rotating missle door on the VooDoo.


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## Gill557 (11 Jul 2005)

Must be losing the ol' knowhow. We used to be able to fit two sets into the pod we fastened to the rotating missle door on the VooDoo. 
[/quote]

No way, that's crazy  ;D


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## mover1 (11 Jul 2005)

The VOODOO.  

Holy smokes you want some viagra with your laxitive or are just going to doze the afternoon away.

 I happen to know that. I always get handed the golf clubs and are told to make sure they arrive at destination with the duty free booze and smokes. Because the luggage pod is of more importaint things like. A clean flight suit to wear at the bar down town and the rest of his ego.


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## Fishbone Jones (11 Jul 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> The VOODOO.
> 
> Holy smokes you want some viagra with your laxitive or are just going to doze the afternoon away.



You're not the first BlackHatter that's gone to the blue side


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## jmacleod (12 Jul 2005)

Well aware of the current designation of the CF-188A/B - I referred to the first aircraft delivered
to the CF in July 1982 - I worked on the NFAP and was part of the Northrop Canadian Team
headed by LCOL Herb Graves and the late Richard C. "Bud" Turner, Northrop Corporation,Aircraft
Division LA, CA (a Canadian engineer who worked for AVRO, Toronto on the CF 100 Project).
The first production aircraft to my knowledge was an "A" model, ("B" model has two seats).
In September 1982, the aircraft flew in the Canadian International Air Show, CIAS, Toronto - I think
that was in fact the first "B" model. Northrop still builds the aft section of the airframe with Boeing
-they call it the F-18, don't think they care what we call it. MacLeod


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## medic65726 (12 Jul 2005)

Inch said:
			
		

> You've got proof of that? I fly helos and an open compartment on a helo isn't a huge concern, heck, we fly with the windows open all the time and the door open on occasion. Speed is the problem when your aerodynamics are changed (ie open cargo compartment, etc), since speed isn't a huge factor in helos, open compartment aren't usually a problem either unless it's something that can contact the rotor.
> 
> and MacLeod, it's officially known as the CF-188A/B. You should know that all our aircraft have 2 letter and 3 number identifiers.



Well here is one for a start http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1999/A99_79.pdf
There have been numerous incidents like this and sure it is not the dorr/hatch/cowling being open that directly causes the problem, unless it contacts the rotor (main or tail). The problem with cargo doors opening is what might fly out and strike the tail-rotor. I am still looking for the report, but a few years ago there was an EMS helo that lost tail rotor authourity after a blanket flew out of their unlatched cargo compartment and wrapped over the tail. Try www.concern-network.org
I also have personal knowledge (and a report that is not authourized fo release) of an engine cowling opening and contacting the main rotors, causing significant vibration, a loss of lift, and necessitated an immidate emergency landing. Apparently the burning composite cowl didn't smell too great as it moved into the engine exhaust as well. 
If you would like more details or explanation please feel free to PM me.


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## mover1 (12 Jul 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You're not the first BlackHatter that's gone to the blue side



Nor the last I hope.....


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## jmacleod (12 Jul 2005)

Strange and interesting things happen to aircraft all the time - which current AF aircrews and techs
know better than I, most of which never appear in the media - Toronto Star reported that "the
nose cone fell off of the CF-18" - being the Toronto Star, they did not bother to check out the
actual details of the incident. We all know about the three letter "identifiers" for CF aircraft,
goes back to the days when DND bureaucrats wanted to eliminate the word "Hornet" because
from what they told McAir and Northrop, the word could not be translated into French - never
became a problem for Northrop in Spain, or Korea. First Northrop designated light-weight fighter
was the YF-17 (which became the F-18L "Cobra") which was in the USAF LWF Program bid. The
YF-17 flown by Northrop Test Pilot Hank Chouteau, flew in the CIAS Toronto in September 1977
-so did the entry level LWF Program F-16. F-16 was the fighter the CF wanted in the NFAP, but
that is another story. MacLeod


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## Sergeant295 (12 Jul 2005)

You Canadian guys really rag on yourselves don't you? Just my thoughts on the matter but I ran into guys with 3rd Battalion PPCLI quite a bit in Afghanistan in 2002 and I have to say they were all trained just as good if not better then our regular infantry here in the United States. As for your plane, $%&# happens right? Every military has accidents and problems, that is a nature of the business Canada just seems to focus on them more then other countries. So be proud! I am glad to have Canada as an allied force, not only because I am a duel citizen but because the Canadian Forces is a wonderful force filled with top notch people!


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## Slim (12 Jul 2005)

Sergeant295 said:
			
		

> So be proud! I am glad to have Canada as an allied force, not only because I am a duel citizen but because the Canadian Forces is a wonderful force filled with top notch people!



Thank you sir for your kind words.

Slim  
STAFF


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## Sheerin (12 Jul 2005)

I was at the indy and saw the fly by, I had absolutely no idea something went wrong, nor did anyone else who was there.  

It was nice to see them, always enjoy hearing the roar of fighter jets.


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## Gill557 (12 Jul 2005)

Sergeant295 said:
			
		

> I am glad to have Canada as an allied force, not only because I am a duel citizen but because the Canadian Forces is a wonderful force filled with top notch people!



Thanks, its nice to hear that from time to time.  Made my day today.


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## Mappy (12 Jul 2005)

> It was nice to see them, always enjoy hearing the roar of fighter jets.



Indeed!  Apparently it flew over my parents house in Mississauga.

It's almost Airshow time at the CNE.....I'm going to it for the first time since I've been in university (traditionally the Labour day weekend is school stuff for me)


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## Sheerin (12 Jul 2005)

Yeah, i know what you mean.  I'm usually back in Peterborough on the Labour Day weekend to begin preparing things for the coming school year.  This year will be no different, well except thanks to my new position in our Anthro society i'll be doing a lot more things during ISW (Trent's version of Frosh)...  
I haven't been to the airshow since 2001, i was there the day before I moved into Res.  Damn, that was a long time ago.  

classes begin in 61 days for me...


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## Mappy (13 Jul 2005)

> Anthro society i'll be doing a lot more things during ISW



Me too! But replace Anthro with Geography.  I'm usually heavily involved with Welcome(Frosh) Week, last year I was one of the main planners, and I was back at school two weeks early!

This year I have said "Screw it, I'm going to the airshow!!"

I'm 52 days away from the start of welcome week.....oh joy


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## Sf2 (13 Jul 2005)

any of guys commenting on the common occurences in the rotary wing world actually fly helicopters? or attended flight safety briefings?  or do you just cruise the NTSB sites?


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## Slim (13 Jul 2005)

short final said:
			
		

> any of guys commenting on the common occurences in the rotary wing world actually fly helicopters? or attended flight safety briefings?   or do you just cruise the NTSB sites?



Ease up there bud.

Some of those people your calling out are helo pilots.

You're also a bit new to be talking that way around here.

Slim
STAFF


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## medic65726 (13 Jul 2005)

short final said:
			
		

> any of guys commenting on the common occurences in the rotary wing world actually fly helicopters? or attended flight safety briefings?   or do you just cruise the NTSB sites?


I'm not a pilot, but full-time crew on a helicopter for 4 years now. Logged about 1000hrs on operational flights. Not in the CF, but in Civillian Helicopter EMS operations.
In my profile there is a link to my website that explains more about what I do.


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## Sf2 (14 Jul 2005)

I'm a CF helo pilot myself, combat read aircraft captain on a griffon as a matter of fact, and the point I was trying to make is that whole "parts falling off occurs more in the rotary world" is a pretty uneducated statement.  Yes, there has been significant incidents involving rotary wing aircraft.  Look back a year or two ago when an entire cargo door ripped off a Griffon at 10,000ft.  But to say it happens more often isn't very accurate unless you have the stats to back it up.  And using select DND FS occurences as examples is pretty one sided as well.  What about posting some fixed wing examples?

What about the Tutor canopy that ripped off and landed in a golf course?  What about the main gear door that ripped of a Harvard II?  What about the tail section of a 737 falling into a New York neigborhood, followed by the rest of the plane shortly thereafter?

I'd be far less concerned about a rubber mast boot falling off and putting a scuff mark on my rotor blade.  

And don't try to lay on some sort of elitist holier than thou because I have 1000 posts on an internet forum, it doesn't hold water anywhere but here in your little anonymous forum.


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## Slim (14 Jul 2005)

> And don't try to lay on some sort of elitist holier than thou because I have 1000 posts on an internet forum, it doesn't hold water anywhere but here in your little anonymous forum.



Lets keep it civil shall we. Everyone is asked to be nice and respect everyone else's TI and experience.

Just because its the internet does not give you the right to lay into others just because you don't know who you're talking to.

Also, out of courtesy and respect to the other members here I would like you to fill out your profile.

Play nice please.

Slim
STAFF


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## muskrat89 (14 Jul 2005)

> And don't try to lay on some sort of elitist holier than thou because I have 1000 posts on an internet forum, it doesn't hold water anywhere but here in your little anonymous forum.



"Your" being the key word...   We welcome your experience, and hopefully - future participation. That being said, if you don't want to talk nice, you are free to leave. This is indeed a privately owned site, and the conduct guidelines have been created and are enforced per the direction of the owner.

Internet pokey-chest, quite frankly - seems beneath someone of your experience.

Regards.

M MacFarlane
Army.ca Staff


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