# books about histroical military figures- fought unconventional wars



## sean m (9 Sep 2010)

Hello

I was wondering if anyone here has read any good books of famous military figures who fought unconventional wars.

Here are some names who are more synonymous with historical un- conventional warfare ex; Orde Wingate, T.E. Lawrence, Che Guevarra, Vo Nguyen Giap. I was wondering if anyone has read any books about them. I was also wondering if anyone here could suggest some good books about unconventional warfare and more individuals who are famed for fighting unconventional wars.

Thank you


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## Michael OLeary (10 Sep 2010)

You need to be more precise in establishing what you are looking for. Simply reading about campaigns that you consider "unconventional warfare" won't necessarily present useful data for someone who is looking for information on which to build a modern understanding of warfare.  Keep in mind that in Canada today, we have a generation of combat-experienced soldiers for whom counter-insurgency operations is "normal modern warfare."  To them, in their real experience, divisions of tanks and massed artillery is unconventional.

Books about (or by) T.E. Lawrence, like “Seven Pillars of Wisdom”, are nice to read, but they can  encapsulate little real information on soldiering or campaigning.  Try "The Great War in Africa" by Farwell to see how "conventionally trained " (for their era) soldiers on both sides fought in an environment well removed from the “conventional" climate, density of troops and nature of tactics of the day.

For a modern warrior who is getting experience today in Counter-Insurgency (COIN) Operations, recommended reading on "unconventional warfare” (to him or her) might be "Soviet Air-Land Battle Tactics” by William Baker. Reading about campaigns on the Northwest Frontier wouldn't be offering anything new.

But a modern "warrior" should also be prepared to expand their horizons well beyond simply trying to get tactics and approaches out of narrative presentations of battles and campaigns.  The breadth of subjects applicable to a modern military career is endless:

"On the Psychology of Military Incompetence: by Nor man Dixon
"On Killing" and "On Combat" by Grossman
"Castles, battles and Bombs" by Brauer and Van Tuyll
Anything by Norman Dupuy: "Numbers, Predictions and War", "Understanding War, "Understanding Defeat”

The trick is, don't accept any book as a singular truth. Always challenge the common view and be ready to seek our first principles to establish its veracity to yourself, or to build a new understanding. Dig deeper than common understanding:

"Battle Tactics of the Western Front" by Paddy Griffith
"Mud Blood and Poppycock" by Gordon Corrigan

COIN may be the spirit of the day. But within the next decade or so it is the soldiers who have also studied what you are referring to a "conventional warfare" that will bring a second opinion to the table.


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## Danjanou (10 Sep 2010)

Ok let's establish one ground rule. Let's not lump Ernesto Che Guevera in with the others as some sort of guru of COIN ops.

Che was a spoiled little rich kid brat who Fidel took along on the Granma as the medic when he returned to Cuba. After losing most of his men soon after landing, Fidel had to employ Che as a rifleman and eventually as a sub unit commander based solely on the fact he was literate and most of Fidel's recruits were not.

While I will not dispute he had brass ones, as evidenced by his attack at Santa Clara, he was no jungle Guederian. His solo campaign in the Escambray Mountains was a fracking disaster and his column had to be saved more than once from being slaughter by either Morgan's and/or Camillo Cienfuego's columns.

His two post Cuban Revolution guerrilla war campaigns in the Congo and later Bolivia read more like Monty Python does James Bond then anything else. In the Congo he repeatedly was handed his fifth point of contact by Mike Hoare's 5 Commando, and in Bolivia he managed to get his entire command lost in the mountains and wandering around starving, before being captured and then executed pleading on his knees for his life like someone's *****.

There that over the good Mr.O'Leary (as always) has given us a start point. Now can we narrow down your interests, first timelines, are you interested in the counter insurgency ops of the past such as those conducted here in North America in the 17th -19th Centuries and/or Spain during the period that country was occupied by Napoleon's armies? The Anglo Boer experiences?

Post WW2 offers several areas to look at with most Western powers involved in conflicts around the world against insurgencies often against former colonies. Indonesia, Indo China, Malaya, Aden, Mozambique, Angola, Congo, Rhodesia, Namibia, Algeria, Cuba, Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Guatemala, El Salvador, Afghanistan, to name a few.

Now are you interested in reading accounts written by the insurgents and their leaders or those who combated said insurgencies?

Edit to fix mong typing.


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## Old Sweat (10 Sep 2010)

I would also recommend a more conventional campaign that was conducted in a "unconventional" manner. Have a look at the British campaign in the Western Desert in late 1940 and early 1941. Despite being heavily outnumbered and short of just about every major item of equipment, the British commander, General Sir Archibald Wavell, mounted an offensive that drove the Italian forces out of their prepared defences and back across Libya and nearly into the ocean. It all came to naught because of the requirement to go to the aid of Greece, and the arrival in Africa of Rommel and what became the Afrika Korps. Still, it is worth studying as an example of how to seize the initiative and how to concentrate inferior forces to achieve local superiority time after time.

And as a postscript, don't write off the Italians as soldiers. While this was going on, their forces in Eritria and Ethiopia were giving the Brits a very hard time. That is another campaign that merits a look if time permits.

I also second Danjanou's comments re Che Guevera. His reputation is based on mythology and silkscreening.


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## Danjanou (10 Sep 2010)

OS IIRC the Ethiopian campaign, also run on a shoe string, was where Wingate got his start as a master of unconventional warfare and the deep penetration of a column behind the lines tactics.


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## Old Sweat (10 Sep 2010)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> OS IIRC the Ethiopian campaign, also run on a shoe string, was where Wingate got his start as a master of unconventional warfare
> and tghe deep penetration of a column behind the lines tactics.



I think you are correct. A number of generals who did very well in Burma fought in this campaign including Slim and Messervy as well as Wingate.


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## sean m (10 Sep 2010)

Sorry for the confusion, I was looking for books about soldiers with experience such as Lawrence and Giap. Men who entered into neutrel or even hostile territory (which is more what Lawrence did) and interacted with the local population. I was hoping to build an understanding of how it is developed and to understand more of what the important aspects are. Thank you for the list of books and your right about the need to review still "conventional warfare" or the typeof warfare this term was used for more.   




			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> You need to be more precise in establishing what you are looking for. Simply reading about campaigns that you consider "unconventional warfare" won't necessarily present useful data for someone who is looking for information on which to build a modern understanding of warfare.  Keep in mind that in Canada today, we have a generation of combat-experienced soldiers for whom counter-insurgency operations is "normal modern warfare."  To them, in their real experience, divisions of tanks and massed artillery is unconventional.
> 
> Books about (or by) T.E. Lawrence, like “Seven Pillars of Wisdom”, are nice to read, but they can  encapsulate little real information on soldiering or campaigning.  Try "The Great War in Africa" by Farwell to see how "conventionally trained " (for their era) soldiers on both sides fought in an environment well removed from the “conventional" climate, density of troops and nature of tactics of the day.
> 
> ...


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## sean m (10 Sep 2010)

It is true, people most likely think so highly of him since he is famous. Yet the missions he took in the Congo and Bolivia were not his fault since he did not have the right support of the local populace. He might have been a spoiled brat in the beginning but that changed and he was a  popular leader, one of the few who actually believed in what he was fighting for 100%, much different from Castro. I was thinking more of the timeline from WW1 and on till modern day. The boer war would be good maybe since the type of warfare they fough is what we are talking about. That is true about the areas of conflict thank you for bringing it up. Would you agree that it is just as important if not more to read about the insurgencies from those who were in them in order to gain a better understanding of structure and other aspects of insurgency groups. 



			
				Danjanou said:
			
		

> Ok let's establish one ground rule. Let's not lump Ernesto Che Guevera in with the others as some sort of guru of COIN ops.
> 
> Che was a spoiled little rich kid brat who Fidel took along on the Granma as the medic when he returned to Cuba. After losing of his men soon after landing, Fidel had to employ Che as a rifleman and eventually as a sub unit commander based solely on the fact he was literate and most of Fidel;s recruits were not.
> 
> ...


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## medicineman (10 Sep 2010)

You could try reading some regimental histories of the Special Air Service during the Second World War, Malaya, Borneo and conflicts in Aden, Dhofar, Oman and Northern Ireland.  There are many available - "Who Dares Wins" by Tony Geraghty is a good general overview about activities post Second World War.  Some names come up you might be able to research later.

MM


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## sean m (10 Sep 2010)

Thank you for this book . It is a shame that events like this are not widely known considering what these allied forces were up against. 



			
				Old Sweat said:
			
		

> I would also recommend a more conventional campaign that was conducted in a "unconventional" manner. Have a look at the British campaign in the Western Desert in late 1940 and early 1941. Despite being heavily outnumbered and short of just about every major item of equipment, the British commander, General Sir Archibald Wavell, mounted an offensive that drove the Italian forces out of their prepared defences and back across Libya and nearly into the ocean. It all came to naught because of the requirement to go to the aid of Greece, and the arrival in Africa of Rommel and what became the Afrika Korps. Still, it is worth studying as an example of how to seize the initiative and how to concentrate inferior forces to achieve local superiority time after time.
> 
> And as a postscript, don't write off the Italians as soldiers. While this was going on, their forces in Eritria and Ethiopia were giving the Brits a very hard time. That is another campaign that merits a look if time permits.
> 
> I also second Danjanou's comments re Che Guevera. His reputation is based on mythology and silkscreening.


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## sean m (10 Sep 2010)

Thank you fo your response, thats a great idea since the SAS are probably the most experienced modern unit with unconvential and guerrilla warfare. The thing that does not make sense is why the SAS and delta force choose the have their image and certain of their actions in the public eye, is this not a bad idea even if it might increase potential recruits. 



			
				medicineman said:
			
		

> You could try reading some regimental histories of the Special Air Service during the Second World War, Malaya, Borneo and conflicts in Aden, Dhofar, Oman and Northern Ireland.  There are many available - "Who Dares Wins" by Tony Geraghty is a good general overview about activities post Second World War.  Some names come up you might be able to research later.
> 
> MM


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## Danjanou (10 Sep 2010)

Giap is more a conventional commander than a guerrilla leader

I'm at work and far removed from my book cases so doing this from memory.  Naturally anything written by Mao 

The Jungle is Neutral by Spencer Chapman,  Malaya Insurection.

Saint Michael and the Dragon by Pierre Leulliette. Autobiographical account of his service in the Colonial Paras in Algeria

Street without Joy and/or Hell in Very Small Place by Bernard Fall. French failure in Indo China

Fireforce by Chris Cooks,. Autobiographical account of service in the Rhodesian Light Infantry in the Bush War.
Minimanual of the Urban Guerrilla by Carlos Marighella, Left wing insurrection movements in Latin America.


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## sean m (30 Sep 2010)

Hi

Has anyone read the seven pillars of wisdom, in the book he mentions certain things how there was never an Arab bureau, he was not considered the head British representative in the Middle east. He also mentions the name of more people he who worked with him in the field, in the movie there is only one other British officer who served with him he mentions men's names such as; Wilson, Buxton, Davenport,  Wood, Ramsay etc. Has anyone heard of these men of others. It is to bad that they have not gotten the same recognition. Yet of course there is the fact that they might not have wanted it. If there is any problem with this being posted.

Here is a quote from the book about them.


"This isolated picture throwing the main light upon myself is unfair to my British colleagues. Especially I am most sorry that I have not told what the non-commissioned of us did. They were inarticulate, but wonderful, especially when it is taken into account that they had not the motive, the imaginative vision of the end, which sustained the officers. Unfortunately my concern was limited to this end, and the book is just a designed procession of Arab freedom from Mecca to Damascus. It is intended to rationalise the campaign, that everyone may see how natural the success was and how inevitable, how little dependent on direction or brain, how much less on the outside assistance of the few British. It was an Arab war waged and led by Arabs for an Arab aim in Arabia.

My proper share was a minor one, but because of a fluent pen, a free speech, and a certain adroitness of brain, I took upon myself, as I describe it, a mock primacy. In reality I never had any office among the Arabs: was never in charge of the British mission with them. Wilson, Joyce, Newcombe, Dawnay and Davenport were all over my head. I flattered myself that I was too young, not that they had more heart or mind in the work. I did my best. Wilson, Newcombe, Joyce, Dawnay, Davenport, Buxton, Marshall, Stirling, Young, Maynard, Ross, Scott, Winterton, Lloyd, Wordie, Siddons, Goslett, Stent, Henderson, Spence, Gilman, Garland, Brodie, Makins, Nunan, Leeson, Hornby, Peake, Scott-Higgins, Ramsay, Wood, Hinde, Bright, Macindoe, Greenhill, Grisenthwaite, Dowsett, Bennett, Wade, Gray, Pascoe and the others also did their best.

It would be impertinent in me to praise them. When I wish to say ill of one outside our number, I do it: though there is less of this than was in my diary, since the passage of time seems to have bleached out men's stains. When I wish to praise outsiders, I do it: but our family affairs are our own. We did what we set out to do, and have the satisfaction of that knowledge. The others have liberty some day to put on record their story, one parallel to mine but not mentioning more of me than I of them, for each of us did his job by himself and as he pleased, hardly seeing his friends."


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## Michael OLeary (1 Oct 2010)

See *Revolt in the Desert*, an abridged version of Seven Pillars of Wisdom which also includes an index:

Colonel C.E. Wilson ("British representative with the new Arab state")
Colonel Buxton (Camel Corps)
Colonel Davenport (mentioned, not identified)
Capt Wood; base engineer at Akaba
Ramsay (not identified in index)

Since they are British officers, you can trace their careers through mentions in the London Gazette, for example, here's one mention of Buxton (found using the clue from above and searching on buxton camel to start with his camel Corps service):

SUPPLEMENT TO THE LONDON GAZETTE, 26 NOVEMBER, 1919

Decorations Conferred by HIS HIGHNESS THE SULTAN OF EGYPT.
Order of the Nile, 3rd Class.

Captain (temporary Lieutenant- Colonel) Robert Vere Buxton, D.S.O., West Kent Yeomanry (attached Imperial Camel Corps).

With diligent searching of the London Gazette, you should be able to build the careers of each of the officers, and find full names for wider internet searches. A good intelligence-style research task for you.

Although not one of Lawrence's acquaintances, here's an example of how much you can put together on a British (or Canadian) officer of the period from the Gazette - Eric Boyd Costin, D.S.O.


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## Michael OLeary (1 Oct 2010)

Further to my last, from our good friends at the Great War Forum, also found while searching for Buxton and his camels as a starting point. The internet is a wonderful place to look for information, far more exciting than the "ask and hope" method of information gathering. 

Thread link



> Posted 09 July 2010 - 10:34 AM
> Hi,
> Here is a list of some of those working in Intelligence.
> 
> ...


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## Michael OLeary (1 Oct 2010)

More on Buxton and the Camel Corps:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62976&st=0&p=552307&hl=+buxton%20+camel&fromsearch=1&#entry552307


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## a_majoor (1 Oct 2010)

Col David H Hackworth (US Army, Ret) wrote two good books; 

His autobiography "About Face", and Steel, My soldier's Hearts tell the stories of how he learned how to become an unconventional warrior over a long career, and the ultimate application of his experience turning a dispirited battalion of conscript troops into a highly effective unit; 4/39 Infantry "Hardcore".

For a very good overview of unconventional war, read "War in the Shadows"


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## Danneskjold (1 Nov 2010)

Leebaert's "To Dare and to Conquer" provides a broad look at unconventional warfare and tactics from antiquity to the modern era. Though it's better classified as history than biography, he does paint some detailed portraits of central figures - Cortes, for example, and Admiral Cochrane (the Wolf of the Seas). A little too heavy on the Americanism in some places, but otherwise a decent read, and certainly an informative one.


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## sean m (27 Feb 2011)

Hello.

I was wondering if anyone could state whether or not they know any good books about human intelligence gathering during war time.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Feb 2011)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?16923-Popski%B4s-Private-Army-special-commando-WWII.

look up General Slimm in Burma


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## sean m (28 Feb 2011)

Thank you very much for the help!




			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?16923-Popski%B4s-Private-Army-special-commando-WWII.
> 
> look up General Slimm in Burma


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Mar 2011)

the Brits were never dull
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Niven


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## sean m (6 Mar 2011)

Could Francisco Pizarro be put in this list since he mostly used the help of local tribes to defeat the inca


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