# The navy is broke,' says former sailor over maintenance budget



## Halifax Tar

Navy battles mould in frigate ventilation systems

All of Canada's front-line navy frigates have had serious mould problems, something that has routinely affected the health of sailors deployed overseas, a CBC News investigation has determined.

The navy has struggled to deal with the blight in the ventilation systems of the warships since it was first documented aboard HMCS St. John's in the fall of 2011, but a former senior commissioned officer says his repeated pleas to fix the situation fell on deaf ears.

More at link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-frigates-mouldy-1.3685779


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Jesus...these next 2 quotes are only inches apart in the article.



> The commander of the East Coast fleet, Commodore Craig Baines, acknowledged mould is a fleet-wide concern, but said the navy has been proactive to come up with a solution outside of the refit program.





> "We have absolutely no concern about the mould in the ships," Baines told CBC News in an interview.



 :

If what the reports from the other HMCSs inspection detailed in the article are even half true, maybe the good Commodore could explain how he has "absolutely no concern" for his ships and more importantly, their crews.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

For as long as I have sailed in frigates, the AC unit condensation issues have been a known problem. It was not unusual to have to keep your gortex rain jacket on top of your rack to keep it from getting soaked as condensation poured from the chiller units over head when the ship rolled.

We would routinely have electrical equipment destroyed in the Aircrew Ready Room (ADR), unless we modified the AC unit and added a drain line to dump the water down and away from anything important. 

I am surprised it has taken this long to figure out that there is a mould issue.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If what the reports from the other HMCSs inspection detailed in the article are even half true, maybe the good Commodore could explain how he has "absolutely no concern" for his ships and more importantly, their crews.


Based only on what's written, it _sounds like_ he has enough confidence in the solutions that even though it's there, it's not a worry.

That said, I can't read the mind of either the Good Commodore, the former CPO or the reporter - and I can't read documents that don't appear to have been shared with media consumers.  Usually, if the docs are obtained via ATIP, they can be or are shared.  Any other acquisition method = no can share.


----------



## blackberet17

> ...but a former senior commissioned officer...





> ... former chief petty officer Patrick MacLaughlin...



No disrespect, but unless I failed Basic, a CPO is not a "senior commissioned officer".


----------



## Halifax Tar

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> No disrespect, but unless I failed Basic, a CPO is not a "senior commissioned officer".



Well the media often gets our rank system confused and turned inside out.  I was reported as being a CPO1 6 months ago in the Chronicle Herald, I am actually a PO2...

These "follies" seem to be par for the course now.


----------



## Journeyman

blackberet17 said:
			
		

> No disrespect, but unless I failed Basic, a CPO is not a "senior commissioned officer".



The bottom of the article features this:


> Clarifications
> ■
> Clarifies MacLaughlin's rank in paragraph 2.
> Jul 25, 2016 9:53 AM ET


Perhaps it was initially misreported as a Snr Officer rank.  Regardless, I don't think that's the key issue.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Based only on what's written, it _sounds like_ he has enough confidence in the solutions that even though it's there, it's not a worry.
> 
> That said, I can't read the mind of either the Good Commodore, the former CPO or the reporter - and I can't read documents that don't appear to have been shared with media consumers.  Usually, if the docs are obtained via ATIP, they can be or are shared.  Any other acquisition method = no can share.



Agreed, but the rest of the article sort of makes his lines sound...questionable?  

If the refugees we brought to Canada recently were made to live in mouldy living conditions for years, the press and opposition would have a field day.  If its just our citizens who volunteer to serve their country in uniform...meh.  No biggy.   :nod:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Agreed, but the rest of the article sort of makes his lines sound...questionable?


And this would be the first time in Veritas history the lines are more ... optimistic/charitable ... than the REST of the story?  ;D


----------



## blackberet17

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Regardless, I don't think that's the key issue.



Well aware, it was just something I noted in the article.

I thought it...the word escapes me...disingenuous? In any case, the two paragraphs regarding the clawed-back maintenance budget, and the lapsed/unused budget funds being returned, the two are not necessarily connected  - was it funds budgeted for maintenance which were being returned, or was it funds for (an)other budget item(s)?


----------



## Stoker

The former CPO a while back posted quite a few pictures and other documents on a RCN face book group and made a lot of wild claims. He was told to cool it, persisted and was banned. Mold is always a problem with ventilation systems that deal with recirculated air. I wonder is PMed was involved with air quality testing on board. I found the same when I was sailing on a different Class of ship, people would develop a hack after a few weeks. It mostly has to do with recycled air, constant AC and other factor, persistent mold was not a problem.


----------



## PuckChaser

Shack hack is common in army barracks as well. Lots of people in close quarters, that stuff spreads rapidly.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> The former CPO a while back posted quite a few pictures and other documents on a RCN face book group and made a lot of wild claims. He was told to cool it, persisted and was banned. Mold is always a problem with ventilation systems that deal with recirculated air. I wonder is PMed was involved with air quality testing on board. I found the same when I was sailing on a different Class of ship, people would develop a hack after a few weeks. It mostly has to do with recycled air, constant AC and other factor, persistent mold was not a problem.



The article makes reference to Navy documents and inspections and the like.  Not "crazy CPO Bloggins" FB group stuff.


----------



## Lightguns

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Shack hack is common in army barracks as well. Lots of people in close quarters, that stuff spreads rapidly.



Common in all recycled air buildings, had in J7 in Gagetown.  Our roof vents were always moldy during winter.  Come spring they would clean the vents.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If the refugees we brought to Canada recently were made to live in mouldy living conditions for years, the press and opposition would have a field day.  If its just our citizens who volunteer to serve their country in uniform...meh.  No biggy.   :nod:


Good point - although I suspect the lines to deal with the bit in orange would be just as optimistic as the ones we've seen on the bit in yellow.  All Info-machines are pretty similar that way.


----------



## chrisf

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I found the same when I was sailing on a different Class of ship, people would develop a hack after a few weeks. It mostly has to do with recycled air, constant AC and other factor, persistent mold was not a problem.



There's relatively inexpensive solutions to those problems, just needs someone to write it into a refit spec, or for that matter, very easy for crew on board to do.

Given how many folks the navy jams into a boat, investing in UV sterilizers for the AHUs would pay off productive man hours.

They take up no space (typically mounted inside the duct itself), and are very simple to install (powered from an existing lighting circuit.

May or may not affect positive pressure for NBCD protection, may require some study, to be honest I'm not sure if there's any notable reduction in air flow.


----------



## Stoker

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The article makes reference to Navy documents and inspections and the like.  Not "crazy CPO Bloggins" FB group stuff.



No the stuff was legit, he was told to take it down because it was a possible issue of protected material. He was also going on about possible claims and medical pensions. This was the same guy, he was working in NDHQ.


----------



## Stoker

Not a Sig Op said:
			
		

> There's relatively inexpensive solutions to those problems, just needs someone to write it into a refit spec, or for that matter, very easy for crew on board to do.
> 
> Given how many folks the navy jams into a boat, investing in UV sterilizers for the AHUs would pay off productive man hours.
> 
> They take up no space (typically mounted inside the duct itself), and are very simple to install (powered from an existing lighting circuit.
> 
> May or may not affect positive pressure for NBCD protection, may require some study, to be honest I'm not sure if there's any notable reduction in air flow.



Pretty good idea, on the class of ship that I have sailed on we have its 6 furnace type filters in the AHU.


----------



## gryphonv

Now this is in the media, I wonder if there is going to be a sudden increase in VAC claims with people who has respiratory issues that sailed on the ships?


----------



## Stoker

gryphonv said:
			
		

> Now this is in the media, I wonder if there is going to be a sudden increase in VAC claims with people who has respiratory issues that said on the ships?




If it was a case of unsafe working conditions that led to chronic illness yes I would imagine it would.


----------



## chrisf

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Pretty good idea, on the class of ship that I have sailed on we have its 6 furnace type filters in the AHU.



We discussed installing them on a rig I worked on, ultimately the rig was scrapped before we got around to it.

It seemed like a good idea though (we also had concerns about the positive pressure, as we were supposed to be able to maintain a positive air pressure in the accommodations block, we didn't "think" it would be an issue, but we didn't have a definitive answer either without a pressure test. I'd guess the manufacturer could give you a spec on the air flow reduction, and you could likely confirm with a hand held anemometer), as we had just enough crew on board to make the place work, there was no such thing as redundant positions, so loosing man-hours to sickness wasn't a desirable option.

http://housesogreen.com/2014/07/hvac-uv-lights-for-ac-systems-do-they-work/

There's a few downsides mentioned in that link, but most of them involve damage of plastics, I'm guessing there's not too many plastics in the AHU on a frigate.

Coincidentally, I always assumed getting sick on board ship was "normal" before working on that rig, turns out I had just sailed with a bunch of dirt piggies, if everyone is good about washing their hands and using supplied hand sanitize, on board illnesses could kept to a minimum.


----------



## jollyjacktar

A bump with the latest story in the mould issue onboard ship.  Shared under fair dealings provisions.



> Exclusive
> Health trouble brought on by mould exposure ends sailor's career
> 
> Doctor refers to former sailor as a 'canary in a coal mine' when it comes to mould exposure
> 
> By Murray Brewster, CBC News  Posted: Jul 19, 2017 5:00 AM ET| Last Updated: Jul 19, 2017 5:00 AM ET
> 
> A former sailor who served for almost a decade has been diagnosed with a debilitating lung condition, which his civilian doctor and now Veterans Affairs attribute to his exposure to mould and possibly diesel fumes aboard two navy destroyers, CBC News has learned.
> 
> The case of retired lieutenant Alan Doucette, 36, who now lives in Moncton, N.B., may have far-reaching implications for the military, which began last week to institute a series of health hazard air quality checks aboard its patrol frigates.
> 
> Last year, a CBC News investigation documented how the navy has struggled for years to deal with the blight in the ventilation systems aboard its recently refurbished warships.
> 
> The new set of tests, which started aboard HMCS Winnipeg on July 15, will eventually be conducted fleet-wide.
> 
> A deployable health hazard assessment team is trying to determine if engineering fixes to the heating, ventilation and air conditioning system have controlled or mitigated the mould problem.
> 
> Battling the blight is an age-old concern for any warship.
> 
> Senior navy officials have insisted that whenever mould is found it's cleaned up and, more importantly, there have been no reports of health issues.
> 
> But Doucette says, in his case, the suspicion that poor air quality, specifically mould exposure, was behind his condition was documented by a civilian specialist in Halifax and was presented to military doctors as far back as 2009.
> 
> He was medically released from the navy in 2012 after being deemed unable to deploy.
> 
> A pair of now retired destroyers, HMCS Iroquois and HMCS Athabaskan, were full of mould, Doucette said, adding he first reported his breathing difficulty and health concerns in 2007.
> 
> "There was extensive mould, I noticed, in the bulkheads, in the joints," Doucette, a former maritime warfare officer, told CBC News. "It was pretty much dripping down the walls and on the ceiling."
> 
> He said he's convinced mould, rather than diesel fumes, was the biggest factor because it was often present in the sleeping quarters and parts of the ship he frequented.
> 
> "There was black mould pretty much in all the living quarters," Doucette said. "It's taken seriously in civilian life, but apparently they didn't take it seriously for the military. I invested the best 10 years of life up until I got sick and they kicked me out."
> 
> Health risks
> 
> Experts say short-term exposure to mould can cause nasal and sinus congestion, coughs, as well as sore throats. It has been linked to asthma, nosebleeds and upper respiratory tract infections.
> 
> There is divided opinion in the medical community about long-term exposure, but some studies in the U.S. have suggested it can affect not only the lungs but the central nervous system, and lead to memory loss.
> 
> Pat McLaughlin, a retired chief petty officer who has been raising the alarm internally for years, has said many warship crew members leaving port expect to get sick on deployment.
> 
> Crew members routinely complained of what they called the "AC flu" and the "CPF hack," he said.
> 
> Doucette said his civilian doctor referred to him as the "canary in a coal mine" when it came to mould.
> 
> 'This is not an allergy'
> 
> His military medical records, which he shared with CBC News, say his "exposure to fumes" was the cause of his health trouble, but the subsequent examination by a civilian specialist at the respirology clinic of the Halifax Infirmary noted the presence of mould as a likely cause.
> 
> "This is not an allergy," said one doctor's report, which noted his condition was likely the result of long-term exposure to "diesel fumes and mould."
> 
> Veterans Affairs agreed with the assessment, stating Doucette suffered from hyper-reactive airway disorder related to being around "volatile organic compounds."
> 
> Doucette said he knows others who have suffered the same respiratory illness, which include a debilitating cough and trouble breathing.
> 
> Since the original story last year, CBC News has separately documented claims by half a dozen serving members who claim mould exposure has made them sick.
> 
> Most were not prepared to share medical records, and all of them asked that their names not be used. Talking to the media was, as one sailor in Halifax put it, "a career-limiting move."
> 
> Commodore Jeff Zwick, the commander of Canada's Pacific fleet, urged anyone with health worries to step forward.
> 
> "We have always taken these concerns very seriously," Zwick said in an interview with CBC News. "Our primary concern is to ensure that we have a safe and healthy environment for all of our sailors, which is why when we have instances of mould that we take very quick, immediate steps to address the issue."
> 
> Air quality assessments are routinely conducted aboard each warship, he said.
> 
> The navy made the same claim last year when the issue was first made public.
> 
> CBC News asked, under Access to Information legislation, for copies of those inspection reports and studies related to potential air quality health hazards.
> 
> Almost nine months has passed and National Defence has yet to release the documents. As of late last week, it could not say when they would be available.
> 
> Moisture buildup
> 
> The problem of mould aboard the navy's frigates has been potentially acute and was flagged as concern in 2011 aboard HMCS St. John's.
> 
> An inspection by an independent contractor found the precision air-conditioning units "were not effectively dehumidifying the ship."
> 
> That, according to the assessment report, created a gushing buildup of moisture within the system, which led to "conditions for harbouring respiratory bacteria" and "potential crew-wide health issues."
> 
> The problem was not dealt with during the multibillion-dollar midlife refit of the country's 12 frigates, which recently concluded.
> 
> Instead, the navy chose to institute a separate two-step engineering fix on the heating and cooling ventilation system, which Zwick said has shown results.
> 
> "Every indication we have today is that it has worked to improve the system," he said.
> 
> All 12 warships have gone through the first stage of the modifications, which allow for better moisture drainage from the air conditioning unit.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sailor-warships-mould-1.4211015


----------



## gryphonv

I've had a smokers cough for years, even though I don't smoke. I wonder if it's connected


----------



## jollyjacktar

Ever wear Chemox......?  Something else to consider.


----------



## gryphonv

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Ever wear Chemox......?  Something else to consider.



Good Point. I try to block out the memories of those.


----------



## Inspir

And once again I found myself looking at the comments section in the article.  :brickwall:

Joe Public really has no clue


----------



## gryphonv

Inspir said:
			
		

> And once again I found myself looking at the comments section in the article.  :brickwall:
> 
> Joe Public really has no clue



First mistake was reading the comments section in a CBC article.


----------



## dimsum

gryphonv said:
			
		

> Good Point. I try to block out the memories of those.



I think everyone does.  

I toured the USS Missouri a while back and noticed that they had a display Chemox (or something like it) as part of the tour.  I shuddered a bit.


----------



## Navy_Pete

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Ever wear Chemox......?  Something else to consider.



Did a set of workups near the end of the life of the chemox units. By the end of the (five?) weeks, there were about a half dozen guys with medical chits where they weren't allowed to wear the chemoxes unless it was a real emergency.  They were hacking up lungs and generally having a hard time breathing; even ST didn't question it as these were the same guys that were the first ones in bunker gear every time, but there were legitimate concerns about their health.  There was a whole raft of CF 98s filled out at the end to make sure they (and a bunch of other people with concerns) had it on their file in case it came up later in life.  

Also, I know Deuce from sailing with him.  This situation was pretty shitty; he got tagged by some as part of the sick lame and lazy crowd with NATO knees, but he had a legitimate reaction to something in the air and you could see it get worse the longer he stayed in the ship.  He was a pretty good guy (for a MARS officer!) so was sad to watch.

One thing I don't get about some of the ships is people are terrified to take a bit of diluted bleach to something that may be moldy and clean it up.  You can't really go anywhere, so I'd rather smell some bleach for a while then stare at moldy growths.  No heavily compartmentalized steel box is going to have a perfect HVAC system, so there will always be some areas where moisture collects and can lead to mold and mildew.  As long as you keep an eye open and clean it up as soon as it starts, it's manageable.  Its when it's in the trunking where it becomes a big problem, and that's a hugely labour intensive and expensive work with generally a lot of interference items, so it's a 60M for a reason.


----------



## sailoraye123

I just read another article about a sailor being sick for a whole sail, throwing up, having respiratory problems etch. How are these problems being dealt with now? What is being done for the sailors who are living in these conditions are they being compensated? Or is this another classic example of the boy who cried wolf and the mold doesn't exist??


----------



## SeaKingTacco

sailoraye123 said:
			
		

> I just read another article about a sailor being sick for a whole sail, throwing up, having respiratory problems etch. How are these problems being dealt with now? What is being done for the sailors who are living in these conditions are they being compensated? Or is this another classic example of the boy who cried wolf and the mold doesn't exist??



I have personally seen mould on ships.

That said, there are lots of mundane, run of the mill reasons (ship motion; lack of sleep; hundreds of people in a small closed space) why people get sick at sea.


----------



## dapaterson

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I have personally seen mould on ships.
> 
> That said, there are lots of mundane, run of the mill reasons (ship motion; lack of sleep; hundreds of people in a small closed space) why people get sick at sea.



You left "MARS officers' personalities" off the list...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

We had a young guy on the Cutters, 1 week into the patrol we had to put him ashore as he became so seasick he could not function, eat or hold anything down. Some people cannot handle the motion due to inner ear issues.


----------



## sailoraye123

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1517443-corroded-steel-replaced-on-two-warships....      yet another article claiming mould is on all frigates and this military analyst who was a naval commander states that 'The rust problem is linked to mould reportedly discovered in all of Canada’s frigates' why haven't they fixed the ventilation/ mould problem after refit? 

      Are they not concerned on the long term health of all sailors exposed to mould on a daily basis from their work environment? Is anything being done about this?


----------



## Stoker

sailoraye123 said:
			
		

> http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1517443-corroded-steel-replaced-on-two-warships....      yet another article claiming mould is on all frigates and this military analyst who was a naval commander states that 'The rust problem is linked to mould reportedly discovered in all of Canada’s frigates' why haven't they fixed the ventilation/ mould problem after refit?
> 
> Are they not concerned on the long term health of all sailors exposed to mould on a daily basis from their work environment? Is anything being done about this?



Some of the problem is the tiles used on the decks, hoses leak, a bale gets bumped and we have water on the deck. Its gets under the tiles and years later the deck gets replaced. Seamless decking would be better. Mold and moisture is a problem but not causing all the corrosion problems.


----------



## Navy_Pete

This is separate from the HVAC issue (where you would get mould from inadequate ventilation letting moisture build up). Like Chief Stoker said, you get cracks on the tile deck, water pools on the steel below, and eventually rusts through. That tends to take years though. Under the tile is an underlay product that is about an inch thick, and is a bit like a flexible cement. It provides some insulation and flexes with the steel as the ship goes through the water, but breaks down over time.  This isn't specific to the frigates and is a normal thing we've seen on our other ships, and our allies deal with as well.

One thing they are doing now is being more aggressive with identifying and repairing minor tile issues when they come up, as they want to do small repair frequently instead of big show stopping ones every so often.  They are also adapting some of the underlays for water prone areas but that takes time to roll out through the fleet.

Seamless decking is better for some areas; but it has it's own drawbacks as well. When you redo it you can't really patch it as well, so it can be big job to fix a crack. It also weighs more, which doesn't sound like much, but can start affecting your stability if it's in big areas above your center of gravity.


----------



## Stoker

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> This is separate from the HVAC issue (where you would get mould from inadequate ventilation letting moisture build up). Like Chief Stoker said, you get cracks on the tile deck, water pools on the steel below, and eventually rusts through. That tends to take years though. Under the tile is an underlay product that is about an inch thick, and is a bit like a flexible cement. It provides some insulation and flexes with the steel as the ship goes through the water, but breaks down over time.  This isn't specific to the frigates and is a normal thing we've seen on our other ships, and our allies deal with as well.
> 
> One thing they are doing now is being more aggressive with identifying and repairing minor tile issues when they come up, as they want to do small repair frequently instead of big show stopping ones every so often.  They are also adapting some of the underlays for water prone areas but that takes time to roll out through the fleet.
> 
> Seamless decking is better for some areas; but it has it's own drawbacks as well. When you redo it you can't really patch it as well, so it can be big job to fix a crack. It also weighs more, which doesn't sound like much, but can start affecting your stability if it's in big areas above your center of gravity.



Keeping a good sealer on it helps too and of course keeping your hoses tight and in good repair.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You left "MARS officers' personalities" off the list...



Ummm...they generally don't have personalities


----------



## kratz

/ off topic



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Ummm...they generally don't have personalities



I don't know. Away from work, some of my best stories involve MARS officers, among other trades.   

/off topic


----------



## dimsum

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Ummm...they generally don't have personalities



Does "almost sociopathic hatred for all who are junior than themselves" count as a personality trait?  

Asking for a friend.


----------



## dapaterson

Don't sell them short.   The only ones they hate more than their juniors are their peers.


----------



## FSTO

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Don't sell them short.   The only ones they hate more than their juniors are their peers.



Its all a smoke screen. We save our real hatred for the Army.  ;D


----------



## SeaKingTacco

FSTO said:
			
		

> Its all a smoke screen. We save our real hatred for the Army.  ;D



Huh. I could have sworn that honour belonged to the embarked Air Detachment.


----------



## FSTO

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Huh. I could have sworn that honour belonged to the embarked Air Detachment.



We envy your sleeping ability. But we realize you guys are the red headed step children of the RCAF and we would love to bring you back into the fold where you belong.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Trust me- we would love to come back.


----------



## Navy_Pete

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Keeping a good sealer on it helps too and of course keeping your hoses tight and in good repair.



Both are true; I was thinking more of the mid deck cracks that can develop over time.  There are a number of different products as well; whatever black rubbery one they put under the steam kettles in the galleys is holding up great.  The USN has a standard one that comes in lots of colours, but tends to crack and need replaced relatively often. A properly applied tile (that people don't walk on in the cure period) lasts really long with some minor repairs, and some of the inserted deck designs look awesome, but if you don't stay on top of any cracked tiles, or otherwise do minor maintenance to the tile and underlay as required then you can't really complain I guess. I think if we went with the underlay it would look great for a bit, then some numpty trying to get promoted would either try and bring in a lower cost alternative or defer repairs in an effort to get promoted by saving money (it can be quite a bit more expensive).

The catch basin under the hoses is another problem area, as you can never get all the water out and it gets stuck under the AFFF barrels, so everytime you break a hose to drain it after it was charged salt accumulates there and turns it into a rust bucket. We went around tried at least rinsing them with fresh water following work ups to get rid of some of the salt crystals but don't know if it made any real difference.


----------



## sailoraye123

Do you honestly think its only on the floor, sure that could be one of the causes... look up.. its crazy how much mold you will see in the flats of the ships... but hey that's what night flat parties are for when everybody is sleeping paint over the mold with a fresh layer of paint breaking the pores making it worst... no wonder that poor Lt was medically released.. funny veterans affair are paying him, but yet theres no problem and its not related to ships as the mold problem on ships has been rectified


----------



## garb811

Federal judge rejects sailor's lawsuit over warship mould 



> A Federal Court judge has rejected a lawsuit against the federal government by a former sailor who claims his debilitating lung condition was the result of mould exposure aboard two Canadian warships.
> 
> Retired lieutenant Alan Doucette of Moncton, N.B. filed the claim last December. A judge recently tossed the case, saying the former officer already had received benefits from Veterans Affairs Canada.
> 
> His lawyer, Brian Murphy, said the decision will be appealed.
> 
> ...


More at link


----------



## Spencer100

Back in the news

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/navy-mouldy-mattresses-1.5313558


----------



## Blackadder1916

The story continues to moulder.

Serving military member sues DND over mould exposure on warship
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/navy-frigates-mould-lawsuit-1.5681241?cmp=rss


> Alleges poor conditions on HMCS Vancouver led to persistent health problems
> 
> Murray Brewster · CBC News · Posted: Aug 11, 2020 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 7 hours ago
> 
> A serving member of the Canadian military has launched a proposed class-action lawsuit against the Department of National Defence after his flying career was cut short because of health issues which he claims are related to mould exposure aboard a navy frigate.
> 
> Capt. Felix Dunn, of Bedford, N.S., served aboard HMCS Vancouver for six months in 2016 when he developed a fever, chills and respiratory issues, and according to his doctors has never fully recovered.
> 
> The warship has had documented issues involving black mould, which environmental experts say is a serious health risk for people with pre-existing conditions.
> 
> Dunn is currently posted to the air force base in nearby Shearwater in an administrative position until he is due to be medically released from the military in March 2023.
> 
> It is the second time the federal government has been taken to court over the effects of mould exposure aboard warships.
> 
> A CBC News investigation first documented the problem in 2016.
> 
> As a result, the navy undertook an extensive series of air quality tests and engineering upgrades to the frigates to eliminate the excess humidity and poor air circulation that gives rise to mould.
> 
> At the same time, CBC News documented cases of sailors who said their debilitating respiratory health issues were a result of mould exposure, and one of them, former lieutenant Alan Doucette launched a lawsuit over the sometimes grimy conditions aboard the warships.
> 
> The case was eventually dismissed.
> 
> But since then, the Department of National Defence has compiled extensive documentation, which Dunn, in his statement of claim filed in Federal Court on July 29, said indicates the military covered up "the issue of mould growth and the compromised air quality it caused" and that it "failed to take appropriate action to ensure the health and wellness of the service men and women under its employ."
> 
> Somewhat more significantly, the lawsuit claims the defence department "was fully aware of the significant negative health effects that result from exposure to such mould, particularly repeated exposure over a long period of time."
> 
> None of the claims has been proven in court.
> 
> The lawsuit was filed on behalf of all serving and retired members of the Canadian Armed Forces who may have been exposed to black mould while serving at sea since Jan. 1, 2000.
> 
> As of last fall, environmental health assessment teams had examined four of the navy's 12 frigates — HMCS Winnipeg, HMCS Charlottetown, HMCS Calgary and HMCS Halifax — and found mould growth in specific areas related to air conditioning and ventilation systems, as well as and other confined spaces where food is stored.
> 
> Black mould was found on the mattresses of some bunks aboard HMCS Charlottetown, which the defence department initially denied before being confronted with photos leaked to CBC News last fall.
> 
> "These members were continuously kept in the dark and misled as to the conditions aboard the Canadian Navy ship on which they served," said Dunn's lawyer, Brian Murphy in a written statement, who added the defence department's reaction has shown "a wanton disregard" for the sailors and aircrew who've served.
> 
> An engineering analysis, obtained and published by CBC News in May 2018, blamed the mould problem on a lack of maintenance and upkeep by the navy.
> 
> The report, written in 2015 by an outside contractor, said the shipboard heating and air conditioning system (HVAC) had "significantly degraded" and that "little maintenance has been performed and the state of the equipment is old and unsupportable."
> 
> At the time, the navy's director general of maritime equipment, Commodore Simon Page, pushed back at the suggestion lax maintenance was to blame.
> 
> The navy initially started out when the first story was written in 2016 by denying there was a problem though it has slowly backed up as reports piled up.
> 
> But throughout it has insisted mould did not present a health risk and no direct complaints had been received from crewmembers or aircrew.
> 
> A spokesman for the defence department, Dan Lebouthillier, said "given the ongoing litigation, it would be inappropriate for us to comment on this matter."
> 
> The navy has said in the past that it is doing everything within its power to mitigate the mould, including updating the ventilation system controls and even buying portable dehumidifiers for various parts of the ship that seem most prone.
> 
> "Our sailors will know my message is — as it has always been — their welfare is our No. 1 priority and we encouragement to be an active participant in making the workplace safe and healthy," said Vice-Admiral Art McDonald, speaking to CBC News in December 2019.
> 
> McDonald answered questions about the ongoing concerns in the year-end interview and spoke directly to sailors and helicopter crews, saying: "If you see something that needs addressing, raise it to your chain of command and we'll work with you to address it."


----------



## stoker dave

I am kinda surprised by this.  

I would like to think that before launching a lawsuit, this guy did everything 'by the book' including going up his chain of command, working in all the official channels, etc.  

Having a serving officer sue DND is (I think) pretty rare (I am sure others here can chime in) and sets a dangerous precedent for an organization whose job is 'to get in harm's way' as the cliche goes.


----------



## gryphonv

Personally I'm following this one closely.

Ironically I'm now sitting at the hospital for a lung xray because I have a lot of issues with breathing. 

Yes I worked in the navy and on more than one occasion I know I was exposed to mold directly. 

For years while I served I had a smoker's cough. My morning ritual was waking up and hacking up vile stuff that accumulated over night. Along with a nagging cough that wouldn't go away. Basically I had 'shack hack' for the majority of my sailing life. And I was never a smoker. Which I know if I was it would of been listed as the culprit. 

My doctor kept telling my I'm only reagravating my lungs with the cough and it's nothing to be concerned about.

I'm now almost 4 years post release and still have the nagging cough, poor capacity and asthma like symptoms without being asthmatic...(just had a test to confirm I'm not).

I haven't submitted anything with vac regarding this as I'm still trying to get a diagnosis from doctors. I admit I haven't been on top of it as much as I could of been though.

I suspect there are a lot more people who served on these ships with similar issues.


----------



## stoker dave

Thank you, Gryphonv, for your input. 

I am no expert but I am confident that onboard ship you (and everyone else onboard) are entitled to a safe and healthy workplace (even if that workplace has the risk of being shot at, bombed or otherwise targeted).  

I am sure others will chime on as to whether a lawsuit is the right or only way to get some action or resolution on this issue.


----------



## ModlrMike

I may be wrong, but I thought that you couldn't bring a claim against the Crown whilst still serving. Perhaps FJAG can clarify in he's reading this one.


----------



## dapaterson

Actions such as Merlo/Davidson (15% of all claims paid out) and Ross/Roy/Satalic ($15M + tax) have shown ambulance chasers lawyers that there can be very good money in suing the government.  The risk/reward of pursing an action that may fail but may also deliver millions in revenue would seem to be a powerful motivator.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I may be wrong, but I thought that you couldn't bring a claim against the Crown whilst still serving. Perhaps FJAG can clarify in he's reading this one.



I could be wrong, but was the Col still serving when this happened?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-s-former-top-soldier-in-haiti-sues-for-6-2m-1.1279024


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I hope these long term health and maintenance issues are addressed in the CSC design.


----------



## FJAG

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I may be wrong, but I thought that you couldn't bring a claim against the Crown whilst still serving. Perhaps FJAG can clarify in he's reading this one.



Not generally my area of expertise and I'm not even sure if he was in or out at the time.

Generally there are specific issues which are governed by administrative processes within DND and in those cases the individual is bound to follow the process rather than going to court (injury on duty, loss of personal property due to service issues etc) Generally courts do not take any action until an administrative process is complete and then only to provide limited judicial review.

The four individuals and DND that he's suing is principally framed in defamation and I see no reason why he could not sue.

 :cheers:


----------

