# Leave Administration - Op LASER



## stellarpanther (20 Apr 2020)

mariomike said:
			
		

> With the uncertain economic and employment situation, I wonder if quite a few might be having second thoughts?



I've heard from a couple HRA's both in Ottawa and Borden who have said there has been no slow down in VR's coming in.  For numerous reasons, a lot of people are still saying they want out.  If some of the posts on Reddit are accurate, there are a lot of people upset about the policy that came out regarding leave.  For those who haven't seen it, it basically said if you had leave approved for dates during this shelter at home, you are considered on leave. Many units have interpreted that to say spend your leave in your house.  People are not just venting on reddit, they're venting to HRA's and giving their opinion of what they think of it.  People understand the reason to isolate but are furious that they are considered on leave when their buddy who already used his leave isn't being charged annual days.  It's hard to provide a reason to them.


----------



## blacktriangle (20 Apr 2020)

Interesting. Where exactly do these members think they will get more paid time off, exactly? Outside of some places that run shift schedules (and are stressful), I can't think of many.


----------



## Quirky (20 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> For those who haven't seen it, it basically said if you had leave approved for dates during this shelter at home, you are considered on leave. Many units have interpreted that to say spend your leave in your house.



A simple leave cancellation memo will fix that and we've already been told they will be accepted by base OR.


----------



## stellarpanther (20 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> A simple leave cancellation memo will fix that and we've already been told they will be accepted by base OR.



It's only if they were recalled from leave and they need supporting documentation stating that from their CO. A lot of people were not recalled because there was no need to.


----------



## Quirky (20 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It's only if they were recalled from leave and they need supporting documentation stating that from their CO. A lot of people were not recalled because there was no need to.



Negative. We were allowed to cancel any leave that was during this on-duty at home period, recalled or not. Sounds like shitty CO's on your part.


----------



## stellarpanther (20 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Negative. We were allowed to cancel any leave that was during this on-duty at home period, recalled or not. Sounds like shitty CO's on your part.



Does anyone here have the CANFORGEN that they can post?


----------



## garb811 (20 Apr 2020)

Nothing "shitty" about CO's actually following the CANFORGEN. Sounds like some folks are going to may have to cough up some leave once the audits are done.


> 4.c.  FY 19/20 ANNUAL LEAVE
> 
> (1) MEMBERS WHO COULD NOT TAKE OR USE THE REMAINDER OF THEIR ANNUAL LEAVE BECAUSE THEY WERE EMPLOYED IN THE PERFORMANCE OF CRITICAL OR ESSENTIAL TASKS ARE TO BE AFFORDED THE OPPORTUNITY TO ACCUMULATE OR CASH OUT THIS LEAVE. ANY TASK OR WORK ASSIGNED, EVEN AT HOME, WOULD MEAN THAT THE AFFECTED MEMBER IS NOT ON LEAVE AT THAT TIME
> 
> ...


----------



## PuckChaser (20 Apr 2020)

Considering what I've seen come out of CAF policies in the past, I thought it was a pretty fair CANFORGEN. Once the travel restrictions came out, and you were planning on travelling, cancel your leave. I'm sure there are plenty of scammers who put their primary residence address on their leave pass and are now claiming they are disadvantaged because they can't travel. According to that leave pass you weren't travelling anyways...


----------



## OceanBonfire (20 Apr 2020)

These links will be useful:

https://mobile.caf-fac.ca/canforgens/page.php?path=data/2020/052-20_e.asp

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2020/04/clarification-on-entitlements-for-compensation-and-leave-as-a-result-of-covid-19.html

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/campaigns/covid-19/faq-on-canforgens-issued-in-relation-to-covid-19.html


----------



## Ralph (20 Apr 2020)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Nothing "shitty" about CO's actually following the CANFORGEN. Sounds like some folks are going to may have to cough up some leave once the audits are done.


Yup. I redeployed off tour in January having used zero of my FY 19/20 annual, and started it the last week of March. My leave wasn't cancelled (and I am certainly not classified critical/essential) and so I have been on leave. At home. Those crying about getting boned out of a few days remaining can fill out the hurt feelings report I'll be more than happy to send them once I come off leave next week...


----------



## stellarpanther (20 Apr 2020)

Ralph said:
			
		

> Yup. I redeployed off tour in January having used zero of my FY 19/20 annual, and started it the last week of March. My leave wasn't cancelled (and I am certainly not classified critical/essential) and so I have been on leave. At home. Those crying about getting boned out of a few days remaining can fill out the hurt feelings report I'll be more than happy to send them once I come off leave next week...



I don't have as much sympathy for those who've lost out on a couple days and need to spend it at home which they might have done anyway but people who have lost weeks of their leave, I don't think it's right.  I know people including me who discussed with the CoC in advance that they wanted to save most of their leave until the end of the year for various reasons and then lost it all.  That isn't right, IMO and it is a sore spot with me.


----------



## MJP (20 Apr 2020)

Quirky said:
			
		

> Negative. We were allowed to cancel any leave that was during this on-duty at home period, recalled or not. Sounds like shitty CO's on your part.



Sounds like some CO's have shitty staff advising them  or they can't read themselves and understand the wording of a CANFORGEN.


----------



## ModlrMike (20 Apr 2020)

God forbid the CoC can't adequately forecast a global catastrophe.


----------



## stellarpanther (20 Apr 2020)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> God forbid the CoC can't adequately forecast a global catastrophe.



I'm not blaming the CoC, it's nobody's (at least in the CAF's) fault this happened.  I'm just saying people who planned to take leave at that time should get to accumulate or cash it out.


----------



## garb811 (20 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I don't have as much sympathy for those who've lost out on a couple days and need to spend it at home which they might have done anyway but people who have lost weeks of their leave, I don't think it's right.  I know people including me who discussed with the CoC in advance that they wanted to save most of their leave until the end of the year for various reasons and then lost it all.  That isn't right, IMO and it is a sore spot with me.


I hate to say it, but it is quite likely that if this posture stays in place for as long as I'm hearing, folks are going to start being told to start taking leave prior to going back to "Ops normal". Some of the folks who "lucked out" by being at home and not taking leave in the last while might find the positions reversed very shortly.


----------



## Navy_Pete (20 Apr 2020)

reverse_engineer said:
			
		

> Interesting. Where exactly do these members think they will get more paid time off, exactly? Outside of some places that run shift schedules (and are stressful), I can't think of many.



Shift schedules aren't vacation time; it's just changing when you work things. No different then doing compressed time and getting 10 days of daily hours done in 9.  I've done rotating shifts and it royally messed up my sleep, so much prefer straight shifts.

My dad worked for over 40 years before he got 25 days of annual vacation, and that was for a job they headhunted him for and was part of the perks package. Crazy folks are upset about this, definitely lack a perspective on the real world.

Having said that, we're pretty stupid about not carrying leave over for no really good reason. Think it all stems down to some BS accounting rules having it as a financial liability on a spreadsheet somewhere, as this should be reasonably easy to sort out a higher level blanket approval to carry over so many days if needed.


----------



## Jarnhamar (20 Apr 2020)

[quote author=stellarpanther] I know people including me who discussed with the CoC in advance that they wanted to save most of their leave until the end of the year for various reasons and then lost it all.  
[/quote]

How did you lose your leave?


----------



## blacktriangle (20 Apr 2020)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Shift schedules aren't vacation time; it's just changing when you work things. No different then doing compressed time and getting 10 days of daily hours done in 9.  I've done rotating shifts and it royally messed up my sleep, so much prefer straight shifts.
> 
> My dad worked for over 40 years before he got 25 days of annual vacation, and that was for a job they headhunted him for and was part of the perks package. Crazy folks are upset about this, definitely lack a perspective on the real world.
> 
> Having said that, we're pretty stupid about not carrying leave over for no really good reason. Think it all stems down to some BS accounting rules having it as a financial liability on a spreadsheet somewhere, as this should be reasonably easy to sort out a higher level blanket approval to carry over so many days if needed.



Sorry, you are of course correct. I should have worded my post better. I've also worked rotating shifts and it wears you down over time for sure. I was just trying to preempt anyone that wanted to point out that in some jobs they only ever worked a few shifts a month etc. The average CAF member has it pretty good when it comes to time off. There are lots of valid things to complain about in the CAF, leave isn't really high up on the list. 

Totally agree that some members lack perspective, but at the same time I also agree that some kind of exception could have been found by higher to look after those impacted.


----------



## MJP (20 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How did you lose your leave?



They likely didn't lose it, they just didn't get to utilize in the fashion they wanted to.  It happens, it sucks but it is not manifestly unfair as the restrictions apply to the CAF as a whole. As the CDS said on 27 March "I know that some leave plans have been badly disrupted.  *Some of the disruption is just unlucky and there is little we can do about it.*  Where unlucky becomes unfair is where we will look to try to address any concerns."

Much of the angst I have seen wrt leave has been people feeling that their particular situation is unfair rather than just unlucky.  We are as a whole a fairly entitled bunch that are fairly quick to point out perceived unfairness without really reading the room and understanding that overall we are pretty well taken care off.

Most employers have the ability to "force" someone to utilize their vacation, we are not special.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Apr 2020)

28 years of 12 hour shifts...2 week days and 2 weeks nights .  I dont look a day over 85...


----------



## stellarpanther (20 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> How did you lose your leave?



So for example, Bob and Jim both get 25 days a year.  Bob uses all his leave before end of Feb so he's happy. Jim puts in a leave pass to use 3 weeks of annual so he can go to Alberta to visit family but is instead told we don't need you to work right now so you are still on leave but you can't visit your family now and need to stay within 250km of your home but wait, Jim is told a couple days later don't leave your room unless going for a walk or you need to get essential items. Meanwhile, Bob is also off sitting in his room but at least he didn't need to use his vacation to do that.  
People can say life isn't fair all they want and they'd be right but it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't mean people are wrong or selfish because they speak up.   The CDS could issue an order allowing mbr's to accumulate those days or direct units to grant CTO or Special when this is over for the amount of days the member had available to be used within a certain time period.  If they wanted to piss people off this is one way to do it.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> The CDS could issue an order allowing mbr's to accumulate those days or direct units to grant CTO or Special when this is over for the amount of days the member had available to be used within a certain time period.



A quick point on this.  The CDS has much less power than many people think.  The CDS is bound by the QR&O restriction on leave accumulation and cannot of his own authority override it.

If you read a QR&O article, at the end of each one there's a letter - a (G), (T), (M) or (C), which stand for Governor in Council; Treasury Board; Minister; and CDS.  That letter shows under whose authority that QR&O was issued.  And that list is hierarchical - an authority later on that list cannot override one that's higher.

In the case of QR&O chapter 16, all the articles are issued under the authority of the MND.  The MND's authority to make such regulations is derived from the National Defence Act 12(2), under his authority to make regulations for the administration of the CAF (subject to any regulations made by the Governor in Council).  Thus any change to leave policy would come not from the CDS, but from the MND.  

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/queens-regulations-orders/vol-1-administration/ch-16-leave.html

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/n-5/FullText.html


----------



## MJP (20 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> So for example, Bob and Jim both get 25 days a year.  Bob uses all his leave before end of Feb so he's happy. Jim puts in a leave pass to use 3 weeks of annual so he can go to Alberta to visit family but is instead told we don't need you to work right now so you are still on leave but you can't visit your family now and need to stay within 250km of your home but wait, Jim is told a couple days later don't leave your room unless going for a walk or you need to get essential items. Meanwhile, Bob is also off sitting in his room but at least he didn't need to use his vacation to do that.
> People can say life isn't fair all they want and they'd be right but it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't mean people are wrong or selfish because they speak up.   The CDS could issue an order allowing mbr's to accumulate those days or direct units to grant CTO or Special when this is over for the amount of days the member had available to be used within a certain time period.  If they wanted to piss people off this is one way to do it.



So to summarize,  there is no lost leave here,  just an unlucky circumstance that no one could have predicted.  Unfortunate yes,  unlucky yes,  unfair no.


----------



## stellarpanther (20 Apr 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> A quick point on this.  The CDS has much less power than many people think.  The CDS is bound by the QR&O restriction on leave accumulation and cannot of his own authority override it.
> 
> If you read a QR&O article, at the end of each one there's a letter - a (G), (T), (M) or (C), which stand for Governor in Council; Treasury Board; Minister; and CDS.  That letter shows under whose authority that QR&O was issued.  And that list is hierarchical - an authority later on that list cannot override one that's higher.
> 
> ...



Would he have authority to direct CO's to grant or be very flexible in granting several short days for the next little while once this is over for mbr's who were affected by this? I'm even wondering out loud if the MND would entertain the idea of looking at this issue. Most mbr's are dedicated to their job but leave and pay are the two most important things I see from mbr's when they come to the OR for something.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Apr 2020)

CDS can give orders within the authorities he holds.  The challenge of course is that there is never a one size fits all solution.  Right now, pilots, technicians and SAR techs are maintaining their normal duty rosters while also isolating, while many other CAF members are merely isolating at home.  "Give everyone two days short every month!" might look good at first blush, but what would that mean to SAR squadrons, for example?

Large complex organizations often create what are referred to as "wicked problems".  Wikipedia has a pretty good description.



> In planning and policy, a wicked problem is a problem that is difficult or impossible to solve because of incomplete, contradictory, and changing requirements that are often difficult to recognize. It refers to an idea or problem that cannot be fixed, where there is no single solution to the problem; and "wicked" denotes resistance to resolution, rather than evil.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_problem


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

MJP said:
			
		

> So to summarize,  there is no lost leave here,  just an unlucky circumstance that no one could have predicted.  Unfortunate yes,  unlucky yes,  unfair no.



To summarize, yes there is lost leave and yes it is unfair.  It is unfair if two people are told they are to stay home and 1 stays home and doesn't need to use annual leave but another person does just because they decided to take their leave at a later date in the FY which is allowed. 
I'm wondering if some of the people who are justifying it are actually in the Reg F and the reason I am saying that is because I have yet to see a mbr not complain about leave when they feel they were wronged.  It's the same with pay, people will take an hour or two off work to go to the OR to question why their pay was off by a dollar, I'm not making that up, I've seen it several times.  I've had several mbr's over the years question why PeopleSoft or Guardian hasn't updated there leave to 25 or 30 days on the same day they become entitled and will hound the clerks until the system switches it over automatically.


----------



## Infanteer (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> To summarize, yes there is lost leave and yes it is unfair.  It is unfair if two people are told they are to stay home and 1 stays home and doesn't need to use annual leave but another person does just because they decided to take their leave at a later date in the FY which is allowed.



Well that may be what the stellarpantherFORGEN says, but not the CANFORGEN, and only one applies to CAF members.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Well that may be what the stellarpantherFORGEN says, but not the CANFORGEN, and only one applies to CAF members.



Is that the best you can do?  How about a real answer that actually addresses what I posted.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Apr 2020)

Some people get lucky and some dont


----------



## MJP (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> To summarize, yes there is lost leave and yes it is unfair.  It is unfair if two people are told they are to stay home and 1 stays home and doesn't need to use annual leave but another person does just because they decided to take their leave at a later date in the FY which is allowed.
> I'm wondering if some of the people who are justifying it are actually in the Reg F and the reason I am saying that is because I have yet to see a mbr not complain about leave when they feel they were wronged.  It's the same with pay, people will take an hour or two off work to go to the OR to question why their pay was off by a dollar, I'm not making that up, I've seen it several times.  I've had several mbr's over the years question why PeopleSoft or Guardian hasn't updated there leave to 25 or 30 days on the same day they become entitled and will hound the clerks until the system switches it over automatically.



My experience is that is it's generally only a small  percentage of people making this a real issue.  For example my team and I run the admin for a very large Reg F CA unit.  This entire issue came up as we entered block leave as well as had a number of folks return from overseas missions and go on post deployment leave including burning the remainder of their annual leave.   

Out of the unit we had two or three people raise issues formally,  a few more seeking clarification (testing the waters so to speak) but for the most part people understand that there is no real unfairness at play here.   I have no doubt there are more that feel a bit slighted but generally people are approaching this rationally and reasonably.  

I agree with the CDS and disagree with you, having to go on leave ATT is unlucky but not unfair.


----------



## Infanteer (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Is that the best you can do?  How about a real answer that actually addresses what I posted.



There isn't much more to be said that hasn't been said already.  Essentially, there is an unprecedented national emergency going on, with people dying and others facing economic ruin.  The entire military has seen its normal business practice overturned like never before, and has been substantially mobilized to conduct domestic operations.  In light of this unprecedented situation, the senior leaders of the CAF have had to manage completely new problems, to include managing the complete disruption of the APS of 10,000+ members, conducting the deployment of forces in and out of foreign theatres during a global pandemic, and unravelling the fiscal realities of shutting down normal business and leaving money in the account two weeks before the end of the normal fiscal year.

In view of all of this, some folks (I count myself here) still had leave remaining for the final 15 days of a 365 day fiscal year, and didn't get to use it as we may have liked.  The CDS had to make a call, and deemed it unlucky, but not unfair, because nothing says thou shalt only use annual leave if its in a manner of your choosing.  Such is life.

So yeah, when you compare all of the above to the fact that you are butthurt about spending 3 or 4 days of leave at home instead of where you wanted to be, that is the best I can do....


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> So for example, Bob and Jim both get 25 days a year.  Bob uses all his leave before end of Feb so he's happy.



Oh ya. I see what you mean. I definitely took after Bob and started the partying early too.


----------



## PuckChaser (21 Apr 2020)

So in this scenario, did Jim put the Alberta address on the leave pass? Did Jim book a flight or plan to drive? At the end of the day, if Jim didn't purchase train/plane/bus tickets, what has he lost? Literally only the ability to visit his family, which every other Canadian has lost right now.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> So yeah, when you compare all of the above to the fact that you are butthurt about spending 3 or 4 days of leave at home instead of where you wanted to be, that is the best I can do....



It's one thing when it's a few days but something else when it's the majority of your annual leave.  While annual leave isn't the priority right now, perhaps it would have been better to put it aside and say it will be addressed at a later date.  Being forced to take your leave and told you need to spend it sitting in your house is not the intent of annual leave as per the Leave Policy Manual and considering the intent of a policy is what is normally followed, I'll go with that.  I've been wrong before but I can see this being revisited once things calm down.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So in this scenario, did Jim put the Alberta address on the leave pass? Did Jim book a flight or plan to drive? At the end of the day, if Jim didn't purchase train/plane/bus tickets, what has he lost? Literally only the ability to visit his family, which every other Canadian has lost right now.



Jim did put an Alberta address on the leave pass and purchased a plane ticket prior to leave being changed.  Several mbr's are in the same situation.  If Jim or anyone else had their home address down, I would see no problem with using up the annual leave because they would have spent the leave where they said they wanted to spend it.


----------



## PuckChaser (21 Apr 2020)

So Jim should be reimbursed based on the CANFORGEN and request to accumulate the leave because the intent was shown to travel based on address on leave pass. That's right out of the CANFORGEN. If the CO denies the request, submit a notice of intent to grieve.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It's one thing when it's a few days but something else when it's the majority of your annual leave.  While annual leave isn't the priority right now, perhaps it would have been better to put it aside and say it will be addressed at a later date.  Being forced to take your leave and told you need to spend it sitting in your house is not the intent of annual leave as per the Leave Policy Manual and considering the intent of a policy is what is normally followed, I'll go with that.  I've been wrong before but I can see this being revisited once things calm down.



Out of curiosity, are you actually personally and greatly affected by this scenario—as in you ended up losing several days worth of annual (not just a couple), or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing an issue that the rest of us have managed to process, accept and deal with because it’s the way it is?

You’ve said more than once that you understand that life isn’t “fair”, but obviously you don’t or this wouldn’t be such an issue for you. It has been explained in more ways and by more people than should be needed for the average member. The CDS’s release wrt the matter was appropriately balanced and articulated. I worked over 25yrs civvie side and what I have right now is damn good, any lost leave or not.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, are you actually personally and greatly affected by this scenario—as in you ended up losing several days worth of annual (not just a couple), or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing an issue that the rest of us have managed to process, accept and deal with because it’s the way it is?
> 
> You’ve said more than once that you understand that life isn’t “fair”, but obviously you don’t or this wouldn’t be such an issue for you. It has been explained in more ways and by more people than should be needed for the average member. The CDS’s release wrt the matter was appropriately balanced and articulated. I worked over 25yrs civvie side and what I have right now is damn good, any lost leave or not.



I lost 17 days.


----------



## MJP (21 Apr 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So Jim should be reimbursed based on the CANFORGEN and request to accumulate the leave because the intent was shown to travel based on address on leave pass. That's right out of the CANFORGEN. If the CO denies the request, submit a notice of intent to grieve.



Reimbursement yes.   Accumulation of leave no, they still could go on leave, just not where they wanted like all members of the CAF.  Unlucky yes,  shitty yes,  unfair no. Unfair would be treating them differently than anyone else in the CAF.  Except in certain rarer circumstances no one made Billy Bob wait until the end of the FY to take their leave.  

Those certain circumstances are the maneuver space CoCs should be focusing on, not people who waited until the end of the year.

People in every job generally can be told to use their vacation time by their employer within limits.  Again we are not special in that regard.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I lost 17 days.



You didn't lose them... you could not use them the way you wanted.  Again unlucky,  not unfair


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I lost 17 days.



Does that mean you worked through Christmas or summer block leave last year?


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So Jim should be reimbursed based on the CANFORGEN and request to accumulate the leave because the intent was shown to travel based on address on leave pass. That's right out of the CANFORGEN. If the CO denies the request, submit a notice of intent to grieve.



I'll need to look at it again because I didn't see that.  I know I won't get reimbursed because I was given a credit valid for 2 years from the date of original travel which I'm fine with. The CANFORGEN does mention that mbr's first make sure they are not entitled to a credit or other option. I believe most airlines are giving credits.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I lost 17 days.



That sucks, it does. But as others have said, try just a tad bit of gratitude here. You have a good gig, good pay, benefits (and some great fringe ones), you’re healthy, you’re safe, you’re not waking up every morning to an empty fridge or wondering where your next meal is going to come from. You haven’t been laid off, you don’t have a landlord pressing you for rent, your bills are probably all paid, you probably have at least one loved one who loves you in return. The average joe is really struggling right now. Put yourself in someone else’s shoes. 

You lost some vacation. Grand scheme? Not a big deal.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Apr 2020)

At least 8  (going to be more) of my coworkers would be more then happy to have taken the "hit" you did rather then be sick right now.  I'm sorry you lost some days off, but I'm even sorrier you are finding it that big of a deal.,


----------



## MJP (21 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Does that mean you worked through Christmas or summer block leave last year?


I don't know where SP works but block leave isn't some all encompassing thing. For example, folks in Ottawa working the institutional side don't generally get the type of Xmas or other blocks that you would see in a tactical Bde.  They are generally left relatively free to use their leave as they see fit as long as it works for their org. 
Largely because they don't have commitments like IRU,  collective trg or PCF cycles to work around when it comes to leave.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Does that mean you worked through Christmas or summer block leave last year?



I used 4 days at Christmas and 4 random days. I didn't take summer leave because I wanted to make sure I had them for end March as per my leave plan.  I have never belonged to a unit that has block leave.  Even using annual leave at Christmas isn't mandatory in a lot of units a various bases.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> At least 8  (going to be more) of my coworkers would be more then happy to have taken the "hit" you did rather then be sick right now.  I'm sorry you lost some days off, but I'm even sorrier you are finding it that big of a deal.,



I know I'm the one on here complaining and it does come across that I'm pissed and whining about it because I am a bit, but I'm calm compared to some of the emails coming in to both me and other HRA's.  I think some people here would be shocked to see some of it, I really wish I could post some of them. It seems like the higher the rank, the more colourful the wording in these emails.  I know a couple have been forwarded up the CoC because of the inappropriate language even though they are not blaming the us (HRA's) for the issue. Some mbr's are furious and are taking it as a slap in the face.


----------



## ballz (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'll need to look at it again because I didn't see that.  I know I won't get reimbursed because I was given a credit valid for 2 years from the date of original travel which I'm fine with. The CANFORGEN does mention that mbr's first make sure they are not entitled to a credit or other option. I believe most airlines are giving credits.



FYI, you will be able to claim the expense 2 years from now if you haven't used it. Might seem like a long ways away but I'd still remember $500-1000 bucks 2 years from now.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> *I'm wondering if some of the people who are justifying it are actually in the Reg F *and the reason I am saying that is because I have yet to see a mbr not complain about leave when they feel they were wronged.



You are not helping your cause at all. You need to stop doing this to yourself.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> It is unfair if two people are told they are to stay home and 1 stays home and doesn't need to use annual leave but another person does just because they decided to take their leave at a later date in the FY which is allowed.



And what are your thoughts on "fairness" when critical staff need to be at work every day, as per normal circumstances, while others have been home for 5 weeks either using minimal annual or none at all.

We have a job. We have steady income. Most of us employed by the CAF have had minimal negative impacts to our life, while people's lives are being ruined (or literally ended) right now as a result of this whole thing. I would advise anybody feeling hard done by because they "lost" 25 days of annual leave (while not being required to work) that they just be grateful.

I lost $1300 this month when my tenants didn't pay their rent.... they didn't pay their rent because both of them got laid off. It's not fair, I'm legally entitled to that income, I still have a mortgage to pay... but I'm not feeling very hard done by about it all, I'm feeling pretty grateful.



			
				BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, are you actually personally and greatly affected by this scenario—as in you ended up losing several days worth of annual (not just a couple), or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing an issue that the rest of us have managed to process, accept and deal with because it’s the way it is?



In fairness to stellarpanther, I don't know why that is relevant. I wasn't personally affected by the cost-comparison shitshow that DCBA caused out of clear incompetence, and was questioned as to why I was so concerned about the fact that everybody in the CAF was getting screwed over because I wasn't _personally_ being screwed over. I'm not sure why my motives were questioned, but it's not fun to be the person that's going against the grain and in many cases we could use a few more people having the courage to go against the grain..... Either stellarpanther's points are compelling or they are not, and whether he lost 0, 1, or 17 days doesn't change that.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I know I'm the one on here complaining and it does come across that I'm pissed and whining about it because I am a bit, but I'm calm compared to some of the emails coming in to both me and other HRA's.  I think some people here would be shocked to see some of it, I really wish I could post some of them. It seems like the higher the rank, the more colourful the wording in these emails.  I know a couple have been forwarded up the CoC because of the inappropriate language even though they are not blaming the us (HRA's) for the issue. Some mbr's are furious and are taking it as a slap in the face.



If you think it's unfair, grieve it. And encourage them to do the same. Honestly, when it comes to the grievance system it's slow but we have a system in place that works, and in my experience some pretty smart and objective people in the Military External Grievance Review Committee that advise the CDS on these issues. And it is one of few effective systems we have in place that works relatively well to change things, in many cases the only avenue people have to make a real change.

As for the unprofessional people taking it out on HRAs, I feel for you. Forward it all up your CoC, hopefully someone shows some leadership.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> That sucks, it does. But as others have said, try just a tad bit of gratitude here. You have a good gig, good pay, benefits (and some great fringe ones), you’re healthy, you’re safe, you’re not waking up every morning to an empty fridge or wondering where your next meal is going to come from. You haven’t been laid off, you don’t have a landlord pressing you for rent, your bills are probably all paid, you probably have at least one loved one who loves you in return. The average joe is really struggling right now. Put yourself in someone else’s shoes.
> 
> You lost some vacation. Grand scheme? Not a big deal.



I agree with you and I have on several occasions reminded myself of all of these things.  Myself and others in the CAF are lucky compared to some others out there and I do try to keep that in perspective, regardless of how I may sound.  Some of it isn't right though, as an example, an HRA I work with told me about a pissed off mbr who cancelled her leave that was scheduled earlier in the year to help out her unit after someone went off sick and her CoC asked if she would mind delaying it until the end of March.  This mbr is apparently fuming because she feels she did something to help out the Org but got burned for being nice. She lost 11 days.


----------



## BeyondTheNow (21 Apr 2020)

ballz:


> In fairness to stellarpanther, I don't know why that is relevant. I wasn't personally affected by the cost-comparison shitshow that DCBA caused out of clear incompetence, and was questioned as to why I was so concerned about the fact that everybody in the CAF was getting screwed over because I wasn't personally being screwed over. I'm not sure why my motives were questioned, but it's not fun to be the person that's going against the grain and in many cases we could use a few more people having the courage to go against the grain..... Either stellarpanther's points are compelling or they are not, and whether he lost 0, 1, or 17 days doesn't change that.



It was strictly related to multiple instances of his past posting behaviour, where despite many trying to advise and shed light on his inquiries, he continued on with the same points as though no users had attempted to calm/assist with his concerns. 

A user specifically asked earlier how much leave he lost and he didn’t answer the question then. Instead, he went on further to reiterate his same issue, which had been addressed more than once, without bringing forward any new info which could’ve aided in wrapping up the situation several posts ago.

Anyone is permitted to post as often as they like, comment on any topic they wish and ask whatever questions they want clarity on. But eventually, when there’s no acknowledgement to the fact that the question has been asked and answered in any number of ways, and a poster keeps pursuing the matter vehemently, it gets tiresome and users will lose their patience and any sense of sympathy.

Stellarpanther:


> I agree with you and I have on several occasions reminded myself of all of these things.  Myself and others in the CAF are lucky compared to some others out there and I do try to keep that in perspective, regardless of how I may sound.  Some of it isn't right though, as an example, an HRA I work with told me about a pissed off mbr who cancelled her leave that was scheduled earlier in the year to help out her unit after someone went off sick and her CoC asked if she would mind delaying it until the end of March.  This mbr is apparently fuming because she feels she did something to help out the Org but got burned for being nice. She lost 11 days.



As was touched on earlier, there are/will be certain processes available where mbrs may be able to recoup, or otherwise address specific matters related to this. Practically everything in CAF is case by case. Will there be some oversights and poor decisions by CoCs? Quite possibly. But there’s nothing that can be done here. (Meaning on the site.)

I’m not discounting anyone’s negative experiences. But as with others, I’m in agreement that “fair” or “unfair” isn’t appropriate given the current state of everything. I could fill you in on an absolutely mind-boggling situation of my own that has lasted years and the pandemic has thrown yet another wrench into an entirely frustrating situation. Yes, thoughts of things seeming unfair has crossed my mind from time to time in the past when I’ve felt sorry for myself. But ultimately no one is purposely trying to fuck my life over—everything has simply unfolded as it has, I believe everyone has tried the best they can, and that’s it—no more, no less—It’s just what it is. I can choose to be at peace with that and focus on what has gone right, and keep doing what I can do in order to keep things moving positively, or I can wallow, complain, keep questioning and feel hard-done-by. Personally, I’ve learned that a healthy state of mind depends on going with the former.  :dunno:


----------



## garb811 (21 Apr 2020)

Fair or unfair isn't relative to the "current state of things", it's the reality of life in the CAF.

If the biggest unfairness in your CAF career is being told to stay home during your annual leave, I hate to say that my heart isn't breaking for you.

Some of us are posted every 3-4 years, some of us stay in one location for 20.
Some of us make $100,000 selling a house, some of us lose $80,000 in the same location 5 years later.
Some of us are deployed multiple times to some pretty shitty places, some of us never have to worry about it.
Some of us have kids who are in their third provincial school system and their 5th set of friends, some of us have kids who have graduated university in the same place they were born.
Some of us miss birthdays, anniversaries, weddings, funerals because we are in units that go away a lot, some of us work 8-4 and haven't slept in anything but our own bed since the last time we were on a career course.
Some of us are posted to organizations where we can take leave whenever we want, some of us are posted to organizations where there are mandated block leave periods and deviations from those block leave periods must be justified for approval...

My observation has been that it is only when people are on the "bad" side of this unfairness that any of this becomes an issue; for those who benefit from it, they are more than happy with the way things are going for them and don't see a need to upend the status quo.

As I stated earlier, if people think the leave "unfairness" isn't going to continue, they are fooling themselves. There is absolutely no way the CAF as a whole can just let people not take leave until the current travel restrictions (both CAF imposed and otherwise) are lifted and if people don't want to take leave voluntarily "at home", they just might find themselves given a leave pass signed by their CO. I think it's going to be a while before we hit "leave normal" again so get used to it.


----------



## stellarpanther (21 Apr 2020)

garb811 said:
			
		

> As I stated earlier, if people think the leave "unfairness" isn't going to continue, they are fooling themselves. There is absolutely no way the CAF as a whole can just let people not take leave until the current travel restrictions (both CAF imposed and otherwise) are lifted and if people don't want to take leave voluntarily "at home", they just might find themselves given a leave pass signed by their CO. I think it's going to be a while before we hit "leave normal" again so get used to it.



I not going to bother complaining on here anymore because while I acknowledge there is some good advice offered on this site, I do think the opinions are based on things such as type of trade etc, what I mean by that, and we've actually had conversations about this at work, is that someone with a combat trade background or someone who spent a lot of time working at a Svc Bn where they are told what to do a lot have a different way of thinking when compared with someone who has spent a lot of there career in Ottawa or Borden or North Bay or even Winnipeg.  Places like that for some trades are like being a civi in uniform, with some parades thrown in now and then.  More if you're in Ottawa.  I knew a person about 3 years ago who was going to be posted from Ottawa to Edmonton, she had 2 years left until she was planning on releasing with 20 years.  She fought it saying it was unfair because the adjustment would be unfair to her after spending so much time in an office setting and the Svc Bn would be too much.  Higher up's agreed and posted her to Halifax instead.  Since she was a MCpl she wouldn't be posted to a ship so she would continue working in the office.
I may not be wording this clearly but for some mbr's, depending on where they work, if you post them to certain bases or units, you would have the same result if you took a person from Civ HR.  It probably wouldn't be not be a good fit.  Again I'm not complaining but just stating a fact.  The example I used isn't mine by the way, it was used by a previous MWO from one the units I was in.  He also told the us that when we go up in rank to remember that just because it's the CAF and we are allowed to do something, it doesn't always mean it's the right thing to do.
Either way, I've given my opinions on the leave policy and others have given their opinions, I'm going to drop it on here but I do appreciate the feedback I received.


----------



## garb811 (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I not going to bother complaining on here anymore because while I acknowledge there is some good advice offered on this site, I do think the opinions are based on things such as type of trade etc, what I mean by that, and we've actually had conversations about this at work, is that someone with a combat trade background or someone who spent a lot of time working at a Svc Bn where they are told what to do a lot have a different way of thinking when compared with someone who has spent a lot of there career in Ottawa or Borden or North Bay or even Winnipeg.  Places like that for some trades are like being a civi in uniform, with some parades thrown in now and then.  More if you're in Ottawa.  I knew a person about 3 years ago who was going to be posted from Ottawa to Edmonton, she had 2 years left until she was planning on releasing with 20 years.  She fought it saying it was unfair because the adjustment would be unfair to her after spending so much time in an office setting and the Svc Bn would be too much.  Higher up's agreed and posted her to Halifax instead.  Since she was a MCpl she wouldn't be posted to a ship so she would continue working in the office.
> I may not be wording this clearly but for some mbr's, depending on where they work, if you post them to certain bases or units, you would have the same result if you took a person from Civ HR.  It probably wouldn't be not be a good fit.  Again I'm not complaining but just stating a fact.  The example I used isn't mine by the way, it was used by a previous MWO from one the units I was in.  He also told the us that when we go up in rank to remember that just because it's the CAF and we are allowed to do something, it doesn't always mean it's the right thing to do.
> Either way, I've given my opinions on the leave policy and others have given their opinions, I'm going to drop it on here but I do appreciate the feedback I received.


I really don't know what to say to this. You just scored an own goal, and don't even realize it.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (21 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> . . .   Places like that for some trades are like being a civi in uniform, with some parades thrown in now and then.  More if you're in Ottawa. . . .



I sorry, but I have to take exception with how you present this.  The location (or the unit) has nothing to do do with individuals thinking of themselves as "civi in uniform".  That's entirely a mindset that a individual chooses and accepts for themself, probably by imitating others (the wrong others).  Using your example of Ottawa, I fully accept that the work environment has a much less formal military atmosphere than found in a field force unit (I was posted to Ottawa a couple of times back when the earth was cooling), but the level of formality does not (or should not) affect whether one considers themself a soldier, sailor or whatever the other guys are calling themselves these days.  "Soldiering" is not about drill or parades or "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir".  It is about contributing to the accomplishment of the mission, whether one's contribution is in direct action against a foe (either an enemy combatant or a virus) or by ensuring that all the tiny cogs supporting the mission are turning smoothly.

I've known a few individuals who spent a majority of their careers in Ottawa, not always of their own choosing.  Yes, there were a rare few who took that path of least resistance and slid into the "civvy in uniform" model, but most tried their best to be "from Ottawa and here to help".


----------



## Journeyman (21 Apr 2020)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> …. whether one considers themself a soldier, sailor or whatever the other guys are calling themselves these days.


    :rofl:


----------



## dapaterson (21 Apr 2020)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> whether one considers themself a soldier, sailor or whatever the other _*guys*_ are calling themselves these days.



Ahem.  Loesser, Swerling and Burrows would argue that characterization.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJq7J2uzSlc


----------



## cld617 (21 Apr 2020)

This thread reminds me of Matt Damon's character communicating with robots in Elysium. 

Sorry, humanoid....but, life's, not, fair.


----------



## CountDC (24 Apr 2020)

Part of the problem I see is that you are mixing leave the member requested with a work schedule imposed on another member.  Two different things - the old apple and oranges.  In fairness this has happened for as long as I can remember.  John puts in a leave pass for Friday, comes back to work to find out for what ever reason the CO stood down the unit sending everyone home, John cries unfair and wants his leave back (hate when it happens to me too but that is life).  You are also not taking into account that the member on leave can only have it cancelled and ordered in to work by the CO. The member on a work schedule could be called at any time and told to report in.  The fact that travel was restricted did not prevent anyone from remaining on leave thus no reason for it to be given back after the fact.  In fact we have had cases where the member had to be ordered to take leave because they refused to request it, giving the excuse that they had no where to go so were planning to just accumulate or cash out.

At the end it all works the same - the member got the leave they requested so there was no loss of leave.  Loss of leave would be if they were ordered back to work and the leave not cancelled.


----------



## stellarpanther (24 Apr 2020)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Part of the problem I see is that you are mixing leave the member requested with a work schedule imposed on another member.  Two different things - the old apple and oranges.  In fairness this has happened for as long as I can remember.  John puts in a leave pass for Friday, comes back to work to find out for what ever reason the CO stood down the unit sending everyone home, John cries unfair and wants his leave back (hate when it happens to me too but that is life).  You are also not taking into account that the member on leave can only have it cancelled and ordered in to work by the CO. The member on a work schedule could be called at any time and told to report in.  The fact that travel was restricted did not prevent anyone from remaining on leave thus no reason for it to be given back after the fact.  In fact we have had cases where the member had to be ordered to take leave because they refused to request it, giving the excuse that they had no where to go so were planning to just accumulate or cash out.
> 
> At the end it all works the same - the member got the leave they requested so there was no loss of leave.  Loss of leave would be if they were ordered back to work and the leave not cancelled.



I'm not going to get into it because as much as I'm ticked about the leave situation and don't think it was fair and believe that those effected or at least had an address other than their primary residence on their leave pass should be able to accumulate or cash it out, I'm not stewing over it like I was.  Obviously he/she doesn't make the decision, but I was very recently made aware of an email circulating that was initiated by a very Sr. HRA who believes the decision may have been rushed and it may be visited again.  One example I've heard recently was 2 mbr's both on IR saved all their leave to visit each other.  Basically one used 5 weeks plus the specials, shorts given at Christmas to visit the other.  The other was going to use all of their 5 weeks to visit the other at the end of March but because of the distance rule, couldn't go and just spent it alone in shacks.  I've already given my opinion on leave a few times and I believe I also said I wouldn't continue complaining on this site about it so I'll keep my word on that and not continue on that topic.


----------



## MJP (24 Apr 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I'm not going to get into it because as much as I'm ticked about the leave situation and don't think it was fair and believe that those effected or at least had an address other than their primary residence on their leave pass should be able to accumulate or cash it out, I'm not stewing over it like I was.  Obviously he/she doesn't make the decision, but I was very recently made aware of an email circulating that was initiated by a very Sr. HRA who believes the decision may have been rushed and it may be visited again.  One example I've heard recently was 2 mbr's both on IR saved all their leave to visit each other.  Basically one used 5 weeks plus the specials, shorts given at Christmas to visit the other.  The other was going to use all of their 5 weeks to visit the other at the end of March but because of the distance rule, couldn't go and just spent it alone in shacks.  I've already given my opinion on leave a few times and I believe I also said I wouldn't continue complaining on this site about it so I'll keep my word on that and not continue on that topic.



As the CDS said there will always be special cases that need to be looked at and adjudicated.  You can never have one policy that fits or pleases everyone especially in an org like the CAF.

That said there are provisions in the OP LASER orders to allow people on IR to travel back to their families.  Seen a number of folks travel both commercially and via POMV since this all started. The authorities have been delegated down (and have from the start essentially) to a low enough level that there is no excuse to have someone sit in the shacks on IR when they could be at home.  It is just a bit of staff work by the units and their HHQs.


----------

