# High Ranking Police Folk Allegedly Behaving Badly



## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Nov 2022)

Fourth one facing disciplinary in the last little while.  Come on clowns, you're supposed to be leading the good guys and gals....










						MANDEL: Senior cop accused of interfering in probe of nephew's car crash
					

Another high-ranking TPS officer is accused of misconduct - find out why




					torontosun.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2022)

Nothing that happens in Toronto surprises me anymore.


----------



## brihard (16 Nov 2022)

Ouch. TPS hasn’t been having a good run of luck with senior officer conduct of late.

Taking what’s alleged here at face value, if it’s true, that’s a pretty blatant boneheaded move. An officer could potentially face jeopardy beyond just the police services act if they’re seen as deliberately interfering with an investigation.

I don’t envy an officer placed in the position of getting a call like that from a family member, but there are lines you just can’t cross, and that’s a decision you make when you take the job.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Nov 2022)

Not sure its fair to blame a city.......biggest force, most potential problems.

It just has to be demoralizing for the rank and file.  I mean if this whole thing is true it's "what not to do 101".

EDIT: same thing, same time post as Brihard


----------



## lenaitch (16 Nov 2022)

A colleague once said that all coppers have a 'self destruct circuit', like a GFCI outlet, and some like to push the 'test' button just to see what happens.

Coppers that work in smaller services or deployed services that live in and police small communities, often face similar decisions on a regular basis, particularly if it is the town they grew up in.  A lot of professions are expected to make make tough moral decisions, that sometimes suck.  This wasn't one of them.


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Not sure its fair to blame a city.......biggest force, most potential problems.





Policing the fourth largest city in North America -  Mexico City is number one, followed by New York and then L.A. - will always have potential problems.


----------



## CBH99 (16 Nov 2022)

Rough year for TPS senior brass, especially when the head of the disciplinary board is currently charged himself with what is yet again, a jaw dropping no brainer.

But let’s look at the plus side…senior members are being held accountable, and the public is being made aware of it.  

In the end this sounds like a good thing.  Some more junior members who deserve those positions & would respect those positions if they got them, will soon have a chance to pursue them.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2022)

Too bad they weren't being held responsible when Blair was Chief. In 2020 Toronto had to pay a $16.5 million dollar settlement for his caging of approx 400 Canadian citizens during the G20, ten years previous.
He literally abrogated their rights and detained them in fenced in compounds.









						$16.5M settlement in class-action suit over Toronto G20 mass arrests
					

A decade-long legal battle over mass arrests at the 2010 G20 summit in Toronto has come to a close after police and hundreds of protesters and others reached a…




					torontosun.com


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> A colleague once said that all coppers have a 'self destruct circuit', like a GFCI outlet, and some like to push the 'test' button just to see what happens.
> 
> Coppers that work in smaller services or deployed services that live in and police small communities, often face similar decisions on a regular basis, particularly if it is the town they grew up in.  A lot of professions are expected to make make tough moral decisions, that sometimes suck.  This wasn't one of them.



LAPD Chief Bill Parker put it this way, "We'll always have cases like this because we have one big problem selecting police officers, we have to recruit from the human race."


----------



## brihard (16 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> LAPD Chief Bill Parker put it this way, "We'll always have cases like this because we have one big problem selecting police officers, we have to recruit from the human race."


Sure, but those kinds of behavioural patterns should be identified and weeded out earlier in the career and at lower ranks. Not to say that does happen. Just that it should.


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Sure, but those kinds of behavioural patterns should be identified and weeded out earlier in the career and at lower ranks. Not to say that does happen. Just that it should.



I don't know about out of town, but I responded to 9-1-1 calls with Metro officers - the "lower ranks" .

Did I see any laws broken? None that I recall.

Did I see a few corners cut from time to time? Sure I did.
Show a little "professional courtesy"  now and then? That too.

I remember being told to "wait  outside" for a few minutes. "You can come in now."

Most of this was in the old days. Before body cams and cell phone cameras , cameras basically everywhere now.

My uncle was on the Metro force for 30 years and shared some interesting stories with my father and me.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (16 Nov 2022)

Stuff like that isn't new, it's just a matter of getting caught.

A couple decades ago we had a similar case of cop family member protecting the drunk driver, got him to drink a bunch of alcohol to 'calm' his nerves after hitting and killing a kid. So he never got a DUI charge and because there was no witnesses and he claimed the kid just jumped out in front of him no manslaughter either. 

The problem with attempting to weed out this type of behaviour from the police is until a situation like this comes up you don’t know how someones going to act. The whole everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face saying applies here. 

I also question the actions of the other police involved as they should have recognized the conflict of interest (provided they were aware it was her nephew) and told her to get out of there. Oh well it will be interesting to see where this case leads.


----------



## dapaterson (16 Nov 2022)

Legislation needs stronger teeth - continuing liability for offences even after retirement, and even the ability to strip pensions.

Perhaps even as an incentive, an officer who reports an incident that results in another officer losing their pension gets some proportion of the benefit stripped.


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Perhaps even as an incentive, an officer who reports an incident that results in another officer losing their pension gets some proportion of the benefit stripped.



Your partner gets your pension for turning you in.  Wow.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Legislation needs stronger teeth - continuing liability for offences even after retirement, and even the ability to strip pensions.
> 
> Perhaps even as an incentive, an officer who reports an incident that results in another officer losing their pension gets some proportion of the benefit stripped.


Just like the nazis and Russians telling you to report on your parents and neighbours.
You tell, you get their pension. 
Nothing could go wrong with that idea at all.


----------



## Jarnhamar (16 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Your partner gets your pension for turning you in.  Wow.


Would you have turned your partner in?


----------



## btrudy (16 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> I don't know about out of town, but I responded to 9-1-1 calls with Metro officers - the "lower ranks" .
> 
> Did I see any laws broken? None that I recall.
> 
> ...





mariomike said:


> Your partner gets your pension for turning you in.  Wow.



I mean, it's clear here that you were a part of the problem, and didn't have any qualms turning a blind eye to injustice, as long as you could maintain some thin veneer of plausible deniability. 

So... what would your proposed solution be? What would you suggest be put in place to ensure that police stop prioritizing covering up each other's abuse of authority, and instead focus on actually doing their damned job of promoting justice?


----------



## PPCLI Guy (16 Nov 2022)

btrudy said:


> focus on actually doing their damned job of promoting justice?


What does "promoting justice" even mean as an action, let alone a job description.  

How does it manifest itself?  

What skills, tools, processes, etc would be required to do that, if it is in fact a thing that can be done?  

Is pulling me over for speeding promoting justice?  Catching a thief?  Arresting a suspected murderer?  Intervening in a domestic dispute to stop ongoing harm to a spouse and/or  children?

I am not being factious.  I just wonder how you see such a role being performed?  And what the Measures of Effectiveness would be?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (16 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Legislation needs stronger teeth - continuing liability for offences even after retirement, and even the ability to strip pensions.
> 
> Perhaps even as an incentive, an officer who reports an incident that results in another officer losing their pension gets some proportion of the benefit stripped.


I think this might have unintended second/third order effects…


----------



## dapaterson (16 Nov 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I think this might have unintended second/third order effects…



Definitely.  The second suggested item might incite misconduct.  It's a "way out there" idea to start conversation, not a fully-formed idea / draft legislation.


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2022)

btrudy said:


> So... what would your proposed solution be? What would you suggest be put in place to ensure that police stop prioritizing covering up each other's abuse of authority, and instead focus on actually doing their damned job of promoting justice?



Let's just say Metro's finest always had our backs, and we supported them.

Saved my sorry a$$ on more than one occasion.

We didn't tell them how to "do their damned job", and they didn't tell us how to do ours.

I should leave it at that.



dapaterson said:


> Perhaps even as an incentive, an officer who reports an incident that results in another officer losing their pension gets some proportion of the benefit stripped.





SeaKingTacco said:


> I think this might have unintended second/third order effects…



An incentive for partners to turn each other in for their pension $...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2022)

There would be a whole group of bounty hunters, looking for malfeasance amongst their peers, instead of criminals. Spurious accusations and broken careers, trying to get something to stick, to steal a pension. Accusations are forever. Exoneration is fleeting and forgotten. You are no longer a team with a common, honourable role. Just a bunch of conniving individuals eating away at the tenants of law enforcement. Destroying trust and cohesion, driving offenders even deeper underground. Not the type of people you want backing you in a gunfight or even to have a beer with.


----------



## lenaitch (16 Nov 2022)

I would hope we never get to the point where an employer can withhold pension entitlements like they can in the US under some circumstances.  I made contributions towards my pension every two weeks, as did my employer, which supported a (hopefully) growth-earning fund.  The only condition was that I remain gainfully employed for 'x' years.  If an employee of a private company w/o a pension plan screws up in a job-related way, should we go after his RSPs?



btrudy said:


> I mean, it's clear here that you were a part of the problem, and didn't have any qualms turning a blind eye to injustice, as long as you could maintain some thin veneer of plausible deniability.
> 
> So... what would your proposed solution be? What would you suggest be put in place to ensure that police stop prioritizing covering up each other's abuse of authority, and instead focus on actually doing their damned job of promoting justice?



"Corners cut" being equated to 'injustice'.  Quite a leap.


----------



## Weinie (16 Nov 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Legislation needs stronger teeth - continuing liability for offences even after retirement, and even the ability to strip pensions.
> 
> Perhaps even as an incentive, an officer who reports an incident that results in another officer losing their pension gets some proportion of the benefit stripped.


1984


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I would hope we never get to the point where an employer can withhold pension entitlements like they can in the US under some circumstances.



*Even OJ gets his $25,000* monthly payout from the NFL pension.



> Under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA), creditors cannot access pensions.











						O.J. Simpson could be bringing home $25,000 a month
					

If O.J. Simpson is granted parole, his pension from the NFL could be upward of $25,00 a month.




					www.si.com


----------



## brihard (16 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I would hope we never get to the point where an employer can withhold pension entitlements like they can in the US under some circumstances.  I made contributions towards my pension every two weeks, as did my employer, which supported a (hopefully) growth-earning fund.  The only condition was that I remain gainfully employed for 'x' years.  If an employee of a private company w/o a pension plan screws up in a job-related way, should we go after his RSPs?
> 
> 
> 
> "Corners cut" being equated to 'injustice'.  Quite a leap.


I’m aware of a Canadian police service where dismissal for misconduct, or conviction for an indictable offense committed while serving, can result in a loss of pension benefits and only a return of contributions. And it has happened.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m aware of a Canadian police service where dismissal for misconduct, or conviction for an indictable offense committed while serving, can result in a loss of pension benefits and only a return of contributions. And it has happened.


I wouldn't consider that out of line or unfair. Much better and much different than offering up someone's pension as a bounty.


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m aware of a Canadian police service where dismissal for misconduct, or conviction for an indictable offense committed while serving, can result in a loss of pension benefits and only a return of contributions. And it has happened.



Doesn't sound like OMERS. ( Toronto Police )
OMERS doesn't care if you got kicked out.





						Employment Changes
					

When you leave your OMERS employer, the pension you've earned with OMERS is yours to keep. You will have to decide what to do with the OMERS pension you’ve built up. We can help.




					www.omers.com
				




Regarding CAF pensions,


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/williams-to-lose-rank-but-not-pension-military-1.872287


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Regarding CAF pensions,
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/williams-to-lose-rank-but-not-pension-military-1.872287


Yup, nice little nest egg when he gets out. Probably in about another 15 years. Unless he gets sued civily and loses it in a settlement.


----------



## mariomike (16 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Yup, nice little nest egg when he gets out. Probably in about another 15 years. Unless he gets sued civily and loses it in a settlement.



Not sure what the status is of his pension and the civil suit.  🤷‍♂️









						Russell Williams’ victim can’t yet go after his pension, court rules
					

A sexual assault victim suing convicted killer Russell Williams cannot launch a constitutional challenge to go after his military pension, court rules.




					www.thestar.com


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Nov 2022)

The balance of probabilities is that the high ranking Toronto police officers nephew was intoxicated and she coersed the lower ranking police officer from her unit (that she called in) to let him leave the scene thus spoiling the investigation and protecting her family.

Make you wonder what other favors she did for her "family in blue".


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Let's just say Metro's finest always had our backs, and we supported them.


Treated each other like family.


----------



## lenaitch (17 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m aware of a Canadian police service where dismissal for misconduct, or conviction for an indictable offense committed while serving, can result in a loss of pension benefits and only a return of contributions. And it has happened.


Was not aware.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Dec 2022)

Ottawa Police Service superintendent arrested on sex charges  | Globalnews.ca
					

Police say in a release that the charges stem from allegations that occurred between December 2018 and May 2022 and involve one complainant.




					globalnews.ca
				










 Rather then start a new thread I guess I'll just edit the one we have going here. WTF you morons??

A senior Ottawa Police Service officer has been arrested on sex charges.




Ottawa police say Supt. Mark Patterson, who is 53, is charged with sex assault, sex assault including abusing a position of trust, and breach of trust following an investigation by Ontario Provincial Police.
Police say in a release that the charges stem from allegations that occurred between December 2018 and May 2022 and involve one complainant.

  
The release says the Ottawa Police Service was made aware of the allegations in June 2022, Patterson was immediately suspended, and the OPP was called in to investigate.     
Patterson remains suspended and has been released on an undertaking.


Ottawa police Chief Eric Stubbs says the service takes all allegations of sexual assault and harassment very seriously.
“We have no tolerance of either,” Stubbs said in a release Thursday. “It is damaging and debilitating to all those impacted.
“The allegations and charges in this case are very serious and it is important that we respect the judicial process and for all the facts to be heard.”


----------



## daftandbarmy (15 Dec 2022)

Classy move...

Video shows Calgary officer pushing over man put in wheelchair, kicking him in the face​Calgary judge handed Const. Eric Plummer conditional discharge meaning he won't go to jail​
*WARNING: This story contains video of a police officer pushing over a man in a wheelchair.*
A Calgary police officer who pushed over a homeless man — who had been placed in a wheelchair — and kicked him in the face won't spend any time in jail after a judge handed him a conditional discharge.

A Calgary police officer who pushed over a homeless man — who had been placed in a wheelchair — and kicked him in the face won't spend any time in jail after a judge handed him a conditional discharge.

Const. Eric Plummer pleaded guilty to assaulting Vincent James Lavoie on November 10, 2019.

Video entered in court as an exhibit shows Plummer pushing over Lavoie, who hospital security had put in a wheelchair and handcuffed after he became combative. Plummer then stepped on his bare foot and kicked him in the face.

On Tuesday, provincial court Judge John Bascom handed Plummer a conditional discharge meaning a criminal record won't show a conviction if he abides by the conditions for one year.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/calgary-police-plummer-assault-sentence-wheelchair-1.6684387


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Classy move...
> 
> Video shows Calgary officer pushing over man put in wheelchair, kicking him in the face​Calgary judge handed Const. Eric Plummer conditional discharge meaning he won't go to jail​
> *WARNING: This story contains video of a police officer pushing over a man in a wheelchair.*
> ...



Time for him to find a new line of work, IMO.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Time for him to find a new line of work, IMO.


But if history is anything to go by, he'll probably still be there in a year or two.



lenaitch said:


> I would hope we never get to the point where an employer can withhold pension entitlements like they can in the US under some circumstances.  I made contributions towards my pension every two weeks, as did my employer, which supported a (hopefully) growth-earning fund.  The only condition was that I remain gainfully employed for 'x' years.  If an employee of a private company w/o a pension plan screws up in a job-related way, should we go after his RSPs?
> 
> 
> 
> "Corners cut" being equated to 'injustice'.  Quite a leap.


I personally think Police should always be suspended without pay when there are accusations of misconduct or a serious incident occurs.  I also think they should have an insurance system.

I have insurance for my work (pay around $80.00 a month for it) and if I screw up seriously enough that I get held out of service, that's how I get paid, I don't see why Police should be any different?

Plenty of guys I work with have been held out of service, won their case, and gotten paid all their lost potential earnings + kept the insurance money they collected.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> But if history is anything to go by, he'll probably still be there in a year or two.
> 
> 
> I personally think Police should always be suspended without pay when there are accusations of misconduct or a serious incident occurs.  I also think they should have an insurance system.
> ...


Do you think Mr.Fortin and Mr.McDonald should have had their pays cut off??


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Do you think Mr.Fortin and Mr.McDonald should have had their pays cut off??


Yes

Especially if they get access to insurance they have the option of paying for.

However,

Rank & File Police Officers are also Unionized Employees, just like me, so it's a different kettle of fish.  They are subject to whatever is in their CBA.  

Management gets a different treatment but they also don't have the protections afforded by a CBA.

The CAF could have terminated Fortin and McDonald at any time, it's the CAFs business why it chose not to.


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> But if history is anything to go by, he'll probably still be there in a year or two.
> 
> 
> I personally think Police should always be suspended without pay when there are accusations of misconduct or a serious incident occurs.  I also think they should have an insurance system.
> ...



Define “accusations of misconduct” and serious incident”, please? “Accusations of misconduct” happen constantly, believe it or not there are a lot of people with axes to grind who will make false complaints. Fortunately the introduction of body worn video for police officers should help to improve protection against this- but nonetheless, accusations fly regularly. They are merely accusations until something is proven. As for “serious incident”, what threshold should be met for someone to be suspended without pay?

I’d be alright with suspensions without pay in the case of certain criminal charges being laid - and that does at times happen. But it’s also worth bearing in mind that police work also inherently means a lot of very bad situations and difficult interactions that have potential to go sideways in a way that may look bad but not actually end up being wrongful or misconduct once everything finally shakes out.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Define “accusations of misconduct” and serious incident”, please? “Accusations of misconduct” happen constantly, believe it or not there are a lot of people with axes to grind who will make false complaints. Fortunately the introduction of body worn video for police officers should help to improve protection against this- but nonetheless, accusations fly regularly. They are merely accusations until something is proven. As for “serious incident”, what threshold should be met for someone to be suspended without pay?


Serious Incident is pretty straight forward:

Was a law/rule broken or thought to have been broken in the performance of your duties?
How serious was the rule violation?  Is it in the public interest that you are "held out of service" pending an investigation?

For the purposes of this, lets refer to it as a "Performance Deficiency".  Roughing up a suspect and using an inappropriate amount of force would be something I would consider a performance deficiency. 

Misconduct implies something different in my mind.  It encompasses really any of the following:


Drugs & Alcohol
Lying
Stealing
Insubordination
Negligence
Disputes

We could refer to this as a "Conduct Deficiency".  Sound familiar 😉



brihard said:


> I’d be alright with suspensions without pay in the case of certain criminal charges being laid - and that does at times happen. But it’s also worth bearing in mind that police work also inherently means a lot of very bad situations and difficult interactions that have potential to go sideways in a way that may look bad but not actually end up being wrongful or misconduct once everything finally shakes out.


At my work at least, insurance is the mechanism used to pay workers if they get "held out of service" due to a performance deficiency.  We actually use a demerit system, similar to operating a motor vehicle.  Proficiency Testing is conducted monthly and is mandated by Transport Canada.  

Failing a proficiency test does not automatically result in demerits being awarded either.  It depends on the severity of what you did or repeated infringements.  

It's in the Public Interest to ensure that I am doing my job correctly otherwise you end up with situations like Lac Mégantic where trains end up blowing Towns up, due to performance deficiencies, killing dozens of people and injuring hundreds more.

Let me ask you this @brihard  -  Would you feel safe if you lived beside a railroad track and I parked a train next to your house filled with Anhydrous Ammonia, didn't apply the appropriate amount of brakes and it rolled away, derailed and exploded?

Would you agree that you probably don't want me working until such an incident is sufficiently investigated?  Why should I continue to be paid if I am not working?  That's why I have insurance, because maybe I was just having a bad day.

I certainly feel that way about Police that can't keep their shit together when dealing with a suspect.  They should also have insurance for those reasons which should be what is used to pay them if they do get held out of service.


As for Misconduct or a "Conduct Deficiency" as I have called it.  Those are different from a Performance Deficiency in that they are not eligible for coverage by insurance.  Performance Deficiencies can turn in to a Conduct Deficiency.

I'll give you an example from my work.  You break a rule, line a switch backwards and cause your train to run the switch.  Fairly straightforward and happens all the time.  

Management and Transport Canada come to investigate.  The first thing they do is conduct a drug & alcohol test.  Running a switch isn't that serious of a performance deficiency and if you pass the drug test you'll probably get a warning the first time and be right back at work pending the result of your drug & alcohol test. 

You fail the Drug Test though:

That's a dismissable offence and your performance deficiency is now a conduct deficiency.  You are ineligible for insurance and you will be terminated and not have a chance in hell of getting your job back.

What should have happened to this Officer:









						RCMP officer found passed out in a Burger King drive-thru after driving drunk in a police vehicle disciplined
					

A B.C. Mountie who drove his vehicle drunk – crashing it before being found passed out behind the wheel in a Burger King drive-thru, where he later resisted arrest – will not lose his job.




					bc.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

In addition,

I also like the concept of work insurance because it adds an additional layer of self-accountability for ones behaviour.


----------



## lenaitch (15 Dec 2022)

The 'income insurance' angle is interesting but, as you say, most everything revolves around the Collective Agreement.  If the reason for the suspension was ultimately found to be justified, do you have to pay the money back and the employer retros your pay?

One problem, even with non-criminal discipline matters, is that the process can drag out for years.  In years gone by, discipline matters were dealt with fairly quickly, often with a parade before the boss, being yelled at with extremely prejudice then moving on.  Transfers were also on the list of options.

There is an amendment for Ontario Police Services Act that would allow for suspensions w/o pay under certain circumstances but it has not yet been enacted.  It seems law enforcement is always caught between 'just like everybody else' and 'held to a higher standard'.


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

I


Humphrey Bogart said:


> Serious Incident is pretty straight forward:
> 
> Was a law/rule broken or thought to have been broken in the performance of your duties?
> How serious was the rule violation?  Is it in the public interest that you are "held out of service" pending an investigation?
> ...



I’m not convinced that human interactions in the course of policing duties can be easily or accurately analogized to parking a train full of dangerous goods. Without minimizing the very real risks and hazards of your profession’s work environment, ours is distinct and different in many ways. If we had the control and predictability of literal rails to guide everything, many aspects of our job would be much less prone to things going wildly wrong. A train is a train, answerable to the laws of physics. In our world, the other guy always gets a vote, and sometimes will exercise that franchise dangerously and stupidly.

When you speak to matters like someone being ‘roughed up’, or anything in the context of use of force, you’re into some of the most dynamic and least clear cut situations people can get into. There’s a whole body of statute and case law, regulation, and training and policy around that, specifically because of how messy it can be. It’s not a question easily reduced to “did they apply to brakes correctly?” The process of both reporting and of investigating use of force exists for a reason. Sometimes officers will fuck up, and yes they should be held accountable. Rarely will the ‘ugly’ cases be very clear and straightforward from the outset, and rarely are the spectators on scene, or at
Home watching a screen, in a position to know what they need to know to understand an event. Now, that’s not to excuse situations like the one just ruled on in Calgary- I made my view on that clear. But that’s because an investigation and a determination of the facts, with the law applied, has already happened. If police officers faced suspension merely on the strength of untested allegations, you would very quickly see wholesale flight from doing the shitty, physical work that sometimes comes with the job. The overwhelming majority of police use of force happens in good faith, out of necessity, and in accordance with the law. Mechanisms exist to investigate complaints, and independent review agencies are certainly not reluctant to recommend criminal charges if they think they’re warranted. The batting average of those agencies isn’t stellar, and they will err on the side of over-charging (or over-recommending charges) against police, as exhibited by the frequency of acquittals.

A presumption of good faith and of innocence is necessary for the job to get done. Weakening those protections in the face of not-yet-substantiated allegations would bring considerable risks to public safety. A key difference between your profession and mine is that you don’t have reasonably significant portions of the population metaphorically gunning for you, or trying to weapon use your professional disciplinary or complaints processes against you. We do. There are people who will absolutely lie and fabricate if they think it might mean some ‘fucking pig’ misses his mortgage payment and can’t pay for his kids’ hockey.

There is definitely some fine tuning to be done, but as a whole, the mechanisms by which police are held accountable are _generally _reasonably well balanced and constructed, in the context of the larger purpose they need to serve. That said, although Police Services Act charges, or their various provincial equivalents, are professional disciplinary charges, I’d be open to there being options to allow meaningful consequences to follow
someone who quits to avoid discipline.


----------



## QV (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m aware of a Canadian police service where dismissal for misconduct, or conviction for an indictable offense committed while serving, can result in a loss of pension benefits and only a return of contributions. And it has happened.


This is usually the case because the employee is not eligible for an immediate annuity at the time of dismissal and therefore a return of contributions is the only option. For the CAF "you'll lose your pension" really means you'll be kicked out before eligible. 

Maybe somewhere some employer has that written into the pension terms, but that would seem unnecessarily punitive.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

lenaitch said:


> The 'income insurance' angle is interesting but, as you say, most everything revolves around the Collective Agreement.  If the reason for the suspension was ultimately found to be justified, do you have to pay the money back and the employer retros your pay?


It depends on what it is.  If it turns out it was a conduct deficiency, you will have to pay the money back. 

If it was a performance deficiency, you will not have to pay the money back.  Our Insurance was started by fellow railroaders, for fellow railroaders.






						Eligibility & Exclusions - Brotherhood's Relief And Compensation Fund
					






					www.brcf.org
				






lenaitch said:


> One problem, even with non-criminal discipline matters, is that the process can drag out for years.  In years gone by, discipline matters were dealt with fairly quickly, often with a parade before the boss, being yelled at with extremely prejudice then moving on.  Transfers were also on the list of options.
> 
> There is an amendment for Ontario Police Services Act that would allow for suspensions w/o pay under certain circumstances but it has not yet been enacted.  It seems law enforcement is always caught between 'just like everybody else' and 'held to a higher standard'.


Same with ours.  Investigations can take year(s) in some cases on the railroad.



brihard said:


> I’m not convinced that human interactions in the course of policing duties can be easily or accurately analogized to parking a train full of dangerous goods. Without minimizing the very real risks and hazards of your profession’s work environment, ours is distinct and different in many ways. *If we had the control and predictability of literal rails to guide everything, many aspects of our job would be much less prone to things going wildly wrong*. A train is a train, answerable to the laws of physics. In our world, the other guy always gets a vote, and sometimes will exercise that franchise dangerously and stupidly.


That's a misconception.  Come out and work as a switchman for an afternoon and see how predictable everything is, particularly in adverse weather conditions, with multiple trains and other crews working simultaneously.  Add in people walking around the tracks, not following rules, breaking laws, etc.

The human factor is what causes 99% of incidents on the railway, just like in Policing.  People are stupid, some railroad workers are also bad at their jobs, just like some police are bad at their jobs.  They should be held accountable for poor performance.

This wreaks of the Thin Blue Line "you don't know how hard our job is".  In other words, it sounds like an excuse. 

Your job is hard and you're compensated well for it, better than most in fact.  I'm also compensated very well for my job (which surprises people when they find out how much it is). With high levels of compensation comes high expectations.

When expectations are not met, there should be real consequences for that.  I'd like to believe there are consequences for Police Officers not meeting expectations but given some recent cases, I remain unconvinced that is the case:

Like these two clowns:



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/nathan-parker-shane-donovan-niagara-police-shot-perjury-1.6653905
		




			https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/police-oversight-nathan-parker-allegations


----------



## mariomike (15 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Misconduct implies something different in my mind.  It encompasses really any of the following:
> 
> 
> Drugs & Alcohol



Is that the one they called "Rule G"? I overheard a lot of conversations about that.

The municipal dept. I worked for got sued. A lot.

The collective agreement went into detail about "Legal Expenses".

The City also paid for, "MEDICAL MALPRACTICE LIABILITY INSURANCE" through its Insurance and Risk Management (IRM) Section.

If you were "charged with an offence under The Criminal Code, The Highway Traffic Act or other Statute(s) or is charged or has a complaint laid against them which may result in discipline by their professional regulating organization arising out of an act done in the performance of their duties" - I never heard of anyone being suspended without pay - unless they were in jail.

For sure they wouldn't be sent into anyone's homes.
If they liked you, they would find you clean, warm, inside office work with no heavy lifting.
If they didn't, you might find yourself literaly shoveling sh^t while waiting for your case to be decided - one way, or the other.



lenaitch said:


> Transfers were also on the list of options.



Next to getting kicked out, worst they could do was transfer you to Scarborough.




lenaitch said:


> I would hope we never get to the point where an employer can withhold pension entitlements like they can in the US under some circumstances.





I've been an OMERS member for 50 years. It does not include OPP. But, does include all ( I believe ) municipal police, firefighters and paramedics in Ontario.

If you get fired,  this is how OMERS handles your pension.






						Employment Changes
					

When you leave your OMERS employer, the pension you've earned with OMERS is yours to keep. You will have to decide what to do with the OMERS pension you’ve built up. We can help.




					www.omers.com


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2022)

If you're caught on video knocking a guy out of wheel chair and then giving him the boots, you should lose your job and pay as a LEO. 

LEOs should want these guys and gals gone as they don't do your profession any justice.


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

QV said:


> This is usually the case because the employee is not eligible for an immediate annuity at the time of dismissal and therefore a return of contributions is the only option. For the CAF "you'll lose your pension" really means you'll be kicked out before eligible.
> 
> Maybe somewhere some employer has that written into the pension terms, but that would seem unnecessarily punitive.


Understood, but in the instance I’m talking about, that’s not the case. At least one service (RCMP) can yank your pension and return your contributions even if you could retire already with an immediate annuity. A Mountie could be in their thirty sixth year of service and sixty five years old, and if dismissed for misconduct (internal- not crim code) could lose their pension.

A Mountie who is convicted of an indictable criminal offence _even after_ retirement can, if they committed the offence which still serving, lose their pension benefits if the criminal act is deemed to have constituted misconduct had they not left the RCMP.

I don’t know how often these provisions have been used, but it definitely does happen.


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> If you're caught on video knocking a guy out of wheel chair and then giving him the boots, you should lose your job and pay as a LEO.
> 
> LEOs should want these guys and gals gone as they don't do your profession any justice.


Agreed. Bear in mind that criminal courts rule on criminal matters. They cannot dictate employment consequences. Calgary Police will have a disciplinary process separate from (and usually subsequent to) criminal proceedings. Police disciplinary matters will normally stay paused pending a criminal prosecution so as not to muck up the latter.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> If you're caught on video knocking a guy out of wheel chair and then giving him the boots, you should lose your job and pay as a LEO.
> 
> LEOs should want these guys and gals gone as they don't do your profession any justice.


One thing that really bugs me about Police Unions is they don't seem to self-police each other.  At least, that's the appearance they give off.

My Union self-polices its membership. We fought hard for the things we do have in our CBA and if you're a shit pump, we generally don't want you working with us.

For one, I don't want to be working around heavy equipment with you, especially when any accident with heavy equipment usually results in death and/or dismemberment.

We also follow a practice of "the entire crew goes down together with the ship". If an incident happens, the entire crew goes down for it.

So that Officer that stood by watching Officer Plummer commit a bunch of criminal acts and did nothing, yah, you're gone as well!

Makes people get with the program real quick! Nothing worse than a bunch of bystanders who should know better.  Like those 15 dumbasses from CPS who showed up to Plummer's trial in uniform no less to congratulate him.  

Congrats buddy, you got found guilty, well done!  Great look for Calgary's finest.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Agreed. Bear in mind that criminal courts rule on criminal matters. They cannot dictate employment consequences. Calgary Police will have a disciplinary process separate from (and usually subsequent to) criminal proceedings. Police disciplinary matters will normally stay paused pending a criminal prosecution so as not to muck up the latter.



Police forces need to be better in addressing this. Fighting delaying actions with unions and such is only hurting the profession.

Catching these acts on Camera is pretty damning.  But hey its not my profession.  They are free to run it into the ground as they see fit.


----------



## mariomike (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m not convinced that human interactions in the course of policing duties can be easily or accurately analogized to parking a train full of dangerous goods. Without minimizing the very real risks and hazards of your profession’s work environment, ours is distinct and different in many ways. If we had the control and predictability of literal rails to guide everything, many aspects of our job would be much less prone to things going wildly wrong. A train is a train, answerable to the laws of physics. In our world, the other guy always gets a vote, and sometimes will exercise that franchise dangerously and stupidly.



Public Safety Canada put it this way,



> Public Safety Officers (PSO), such as firefighters, police, and paramedics, are personnel that provide immediate response to crises, putting their own safety at risk to aid the public and maintain public safety and security.





> Compensation benefits for PSOs are important not only for the welfare of the emergency response provider and their family, but also to encourage recruitment and sustain existing emergency response services.





> Death or permanent disability can occur for PSOs on or off duty









						Research Summary: Compensation for Public Safety Officers in Canada: A Brief Overview
					

The objective of this project was to: 1) Identify what existing federal, provincial/territorial, and municipal compensation plans pay to PSOs for a) death; b) “permanent disability” and what is meant by “permanent disability”; 2) Identify when death and permanent disability are paid out in the...




					www.publicsafety.gc.ca


----------



## Good2Golf (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Time for him to find a new line of work, IMO.


Tow truck operator?


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Police forces need to be better in addressing this. Fighting delaying actions with unions and such is only hurting the profession.



FWIW, within my organization, and in my time as a union rep, I didn’t see the union delaying misconduct matters. On the contrary, conduct files often dragged well beyond what they should because the senior officers sitting as conduct adjudicators also have other executive functions and would let conduct files sit on their desk while members languish on suspension. We would often be trying to push for updates and forward progress. The role of the union in the ones I saw was representing the member in ensuring due process, and assisting the member in providing factual, contextual, and, at times, motivators submissions. For serious enough cases, where employment is at risk, the union will provide legal coverage to ensure the member has adequate and fair registration. But I have not seen my organization’s union do anything with the intent of delaying matters. The service is slow enough on its own and doesn’t need the help. It’s frustrating because if allegations are not substantiated, it can mean a member was hung out to dry for a long time, with significant career and financial consequences for something they didn’t even do wrong.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

mariomike said:


> Public Safety Canada put it this way,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Paramedics get a raw deal in terms of compensation IMO, as do all Healthcare professionals.

Compensation & Benefits for Police are high though, nobody here is arguing it shouldn't be. 

We are saying that they need more accountability though.  The lack of accountability is what's contributing to the loss of respect for the profession.


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> FWIW, within my organization, and in my time as a union rep, I didn’t see the union delaying misconduct matters. On the contrary, conduct files often dragged well beyond what they should because the senior officers sitting as conduct adjudicators also have other executive functions and would let conduct files sit on their desk while members languish on suspension. We would often be trying to push for updates and forward progress. The role of the union in the ones I saw was representing the member in ensuring due process, and assisting the member in providing factual, contextual, and, at times, motivators submissions. For serious enough cases, where employment is at risk, the union will provide legal coverage to ensure the member has adequate and fair registration. But I have not seen my organization’s union do anything with the intent of delaying matters. The service is slow enough on its own and doesn’t need the help. It’s frustrating because if allegations are not substantiated, it can mean a member was hung out to dry for a long time, with significant career and financial consequences for something they didn’t even do wrong.



I'm all for investigations and due course.  But video evidence is pretty damning.

Much like the CAF what's needed is a speedy way to offload the dead weight and walking liabilities.


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm all for investigations and due course.  But video evidence is pretty damning.
> 
> Much like the CAF what's needed a speedy to offload the dead weight and walking liabilities.


Video evidence shows some (not all) of WHAT happened. It will seldom suffice to tell you why, and that matters.

It’s easy to take a case of a cop tipping a wheelchair and kicking someone in the face, and finding prima facile misconduct in it. Cause yeah, sometimes it’s absolutely there. Some police should not be on the job. Sometimes cases will be quite clear… But something that obvious will be rare. The potential threats and risks officers detect or perceive based on training, experience, and direct knowledge of a subject can only come out in an investigative process and in an officer’s articulation of what their legal grounds were to use force. That’s why you see such radically different outcomes between cases like _Forcillo_ and _Pompeo._


----------



## Halifax Tar (15 Dec 2022)

The knocking a guy off a wheelchair is just one case.  It doesn't take a lot of searching on YouTube or google to find a plethora of examples.

Look I get it not ACAB, as stated elsewhere my personal biases towards LEOs has been changing from the good service I've received as of late from HRPD, but the public perception battle needs to be won by you guys.  And right now you guys are losing.  How you right that ship is up to you guys.  All I know is I think getting rid of the dummies who are cops just to break skulls is a good first move.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Video evidence shows some (not all) of WHAT happened. It will seldom suffice to tell you why, and that matters.
> 
> It’s easy to take a case of a cop tipping a wheelchair and kicking someone in the face, and finding prima facile misconduct in it. Cause yeah, sometimes it’s absolutely there. Some police should not be on the job. Sometimes cases will be quite clear… But something that obvious will be rare. The potential threats and risks officers detect or perceive based on training, experience, and direct knowledge of a subject can only come out in an investigative process and in an officer’s articulation of what their legal grounds were to use force. That’s why you see such radically different outcomes between cases like _Forcillo_ and _Pompeo._


Just because you didn't ultimately commit a criminal act doesn't mean you shouldn't still lose your job.  

Again, maybe you are just bad at your job?  There should be consequences for being bad at your job.  Especially when your poor performance leads to negative outcomes for others.


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> And right now you guys are losing.  How you right that ship is up to you guys.  All I know is I think getting rid of the dummies who are cops just to break skulls is a good first move.



For sure. I’m just not a baby with the bath water guy, and the really egregious misconduct cases are dwarfed by false and vexatious allegations. Somewhere in the middle lies the relatively modest number of genuine misconduct matters that are of a fairly serious nature. And of course use of force cases are only a portion of this. Caution needs to be exercised in stripping pay or employment status.

No matter how good we get, we’ll never be faster than the witness who captures video (often selectively) of part of an interaction that is ugly to watch. Usually they’re the product of lawful and appropriate actions in bad circumstances, but it takes not long at all for a simply uninformed or downright bad/malicious take to go viral. That’s a reality we deal with. Picking the wheat from the chaff can be difficult and requires good investigation.



Humphrey Bogart said:


> Just because you didn't ultimately commit a criminal act doesn't mean you shouldn't still lose your job.
> 
> Again, maybe you are just bad at your job?  There should be consequences for being bad at your job.  Especially when your poor performance leads to negative outcomes for others.



Well, in the case of police use of force, the criminal code is exactly where the threshold is and should be found, since that’s what enables police to use force at all. A police use of force that isn’t reasonable is _inherently_ criminal, as it would fail the test under s.25 of the Criminal Code that can take what would otherwise be an assault, and make it legal in the course of execution of police duties.

Now, outside of the use of force context, I agree that there can be situations where a criminal offence is not committed (or a matter proceeds other than criminally, say an impaired driver handled administratively) but where there may be a misconduct justifying termination. Sexual misconduct, serious harassment, etc. I still believe a proper investigation needs to be conducted with a proper fact finding and a fair adjudication in such cases. Suspension without pay before a finding of guilt (or administrative equivalent) should be very rare and reserved only for really egregious cases.

We likely don’t and won’t agree on that, and that’s fine.


----------



## mariomike (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> It’s easy to take a case of a cop tipping a wheelchair and kicking someone in the face, and finding prima facile misconduct in it.



Not just police.

State Returns License to Fired Dallas Paramedic, Who Kicked Mentally Ill Man in Face​








						State Returns License to Fired Dallas Paramedic Brad Cox, Who Kicked Mentally Ill Man in Face
					

The Texas Department of State Health Services issued an emergency suspension of Brad Cox's paramedic license last month. Cox, the former Dallas Fire-Rescue paramedic who was caught on video kicking a mentally ill man on the ground in 2019, got his license back last week. The state is still...




					www.dallasobserver.com
				




Got his paramedic licence back too!

Particularly sad when brothers turn on brothers back at the station-house.
Apparently, they were arguing over Elvis Presley's birthday.





						Victim of Staten Island firehouse brawl reaches $3.75M settlement with city
					

Fellow FDNY member smashed Robert Walsh in face with metal chair on New Year's Eve 2003




					www.silive.com
				








> smashed a metal chair up side of his head at Tottenville's Engine Co. 151/Ladder Co. 76 firehouse





> We are pleased that the matter has been resolved amicably,





> Paramedics get a raw deal in terms of compensation IMO, as do all Healthcare professionals.



That's for sure. But, YMMV depending on province, and jurisdiction within each province.

eg: One of our paramedics ( not a supervisor, just a street guy ) made $241,119 last year, according to the Sunshine List.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> For sure. I’m just not a baby with the bath water guy, and the really egregious misconduct cases are dwarfed by false and vexatious allegations. Somewhere in the middle lies the relatively modest number of genuine misconduct matters that are of a fairly serious nature. And of course use of force cases are only a portion of this. Caution needs to be exercised in stripping pay or employment status.
> 
> No matter how good we get, we’ll never be faster than the witness who captures video (often selectively) of part of an interaction that is ugly to watch. Usually they’re the product of lawful and appropriate actions in bad circumstances, but it takes not long at all for a simply uninformed or downright bad/malicious take to go viral. That’s a reality we deal with. Picking the wheat from the chaff can be difficult and requires good investigation.


What's wrong with being recorded?  I am recorded 24/7 both on video and audio when I'm working.  We have 4 to 6 video recorders in the cab, audio recorders outside and inside the cab and dashcams that captures video footage outside the cab.  Data from the engines themselves are also recorded and can be downloaded by TC in the event of an accident.

I don't see why Police shouldn't be under any less scrutiny?  People also record me all the time at work because people like recording trains.  I am cognizant at all times that I am being recorded.



brihard said:


> Well, in the case of police use of force, the criminal code is exactly where the threshold is and should be found, since that’s what enables police to use force at all. A police use of force that isn’t reasonable is _inherently_ criminal, as it would fail the test under s.25 of the Criminal Code that can take what would otherwise be an assault, and make it legal in the course of execution of police duties.
> 
> Now, outside of the use of force context, I agree that there can be situations where a criminal offence is not committed (or a matter proceeds other than criminally, say an impaired driver handled administratively) but where there may be a misconduct justifying termination. Sexual misconduct, serious harassment, etc. I still believe a proper investigation needs to be conducted with a proper fact finding and a fair adjudication in such cases. Suspension without pay before a finding of guilt (or administrative equivalent) should be very rare and reserved only for really egregious cases.


Someone could be absolutely allowed to use a certain level of force and be criminally in the clear.  That doesn't mean they didn't do a piss poor job in the execution of their duties.  

Why should we accept sloppy performance?  Just the way Officer Plummer interacted with that suspect shows he needs some retraining and probably an english class or two 😉



brihard said:


> We likely don’t and won’t agree on that, and that’s fine.



Agreed


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> What's wrong with being recorded?  I am recorded 24/7 both on video and audio when I'm working.  We have 4 to 6 video recorders in the cab, audio recorders outside and inside the cab and dashcams that captures video footage outside the cab.  Data from the engines themselves are also recorded and can be downloaded by TC in the event of an accident.
> 
> I don't see why Police shouldn't be under any less scrutiny?  People also record me all the time at work because people like recording trains.  I am cognizant at all times that I am being recorded.



Where are you getting that I’m against being recorded? I have no issue with it at all. You just have to be live to the fact that a video recording will show one perspective from one angle of what can be captured visually, and maybe some audio. No more, no less. However, many viewers are not particularly discerning, and are quick to jump on a narrative of misconduct if a clip of video can be interpreted to fit their confirmation bias.

On the contrary, because I know that I _am_ professional, lawful, and ethical, cameras make me happy. They protect me. I had my ass saved in a lawsuit once specifically because of the availability of video that showed me not doing something I was accused of. A citizen recorded video also caught me making a mistake once, a complaint against me resulted and was upheld (the only time in my career thus far). Totally fair game- though not malicious, I made a mistake I should not have made, and it’s on me to wear that.

I think widespread adoption of body cams is going to be great for us. Hopefully we as a profession can develop a norm of promptly releasing reasonable excerpts of footage when necessary to quickly demystify situations that are contentious or that are twisted to put us in a bad light. I’ve already seen I think Winnipeg do this really well a couple times. And if that also torpedoes some members of the profession who can’t uphold the expected level of conduct, that’s fine too- on that I’m sure we agreed.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (15 Dec 2022)

A friend if mine got fired from a small jail because of being recorded.
Coles note version.....inmate acting like asshole in A@D, decides he wants to fight the 2 officers, makes the attempt and is quickly subdued.

Friend gets fired because in his report he stated that the inmate moved into a fighting stance by bringing a foot forward and raising his fists.  Upon video review they determined that the inmate only brought his hands up to challenge said officer and that meant he lied in his report.

HB, are you under that much scrutiny that, while being threatened to have the shit kicked out of you, you recite every explicit detail of your conduct?

"Ha!!!   You didn't mention picking your nose 20 minutes prior to this incident but there goes the hand up on the video. ..."out ya' go."

Two different worlds  my friend....


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (15 Dec 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> A friend if mine got fired from a small jail because of being recorded.
> Coles note version.....inmate acting like asshole in A@D, decides he wants to fight the 2 officers, makes the attempt and is quickly subdued.
> 
> Friend gets fired because in his report he stated that the inmate moved into a fighting stance by bringing a foot forward and raising his fists.  Upon video review they determined that the inmate only brought his hands up to challenge said officer and that meant he lied in his report.
> ...


The answer is yes.  Accidents at my workplace don't usually result in "getting the shit kicked out of you".

They usually result in death and/or dismemberment.

There was a conductor killed yesterday in the United States.  Another train hit a piece of metal someone had placed on the track.  The force sent it through the windshield of the locomotive and cut his head clean off.


----------



## mariomike (15 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The answer is yes.  Accidents at my workplace don't usually result in "getting the shit kicked out of you".
> 
> They usually result in death and/or dismemberment.
> 
> There was a conductor killed yesterday in the United States.  Another train hit a piece of metal someone had placed on the track.  The force sent it through the windshield of the locomotive and cut his head clean off.



It's a job with a lot of responsibility. 

Brakeman Larry Krupa saved a lot of lives.








						1979 Mississauga train derailment - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Time for him to find a new line of work, IMO.


Doesn't seem to be much incentive for him to do so, and 100,000 reasons for him not to.

Being able to push over someone handcuffed in a wheel chair and kick them in the face with no reprecussions is pretty good job security.


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Doesn't seem to be much incentive for him to do so, and 100,000 reasons for him not to.
> 
> Being able to push over someone handcuffed in a wheel chair and kick them in the face with no reprecussions is pretty good job security.


I can only shake my head at the criminal sentencing. That said, it remains to be seen what the internal disciplinary consequences will be.


----------



## mariomike (15 Dec 2022)

I don't know if it is common in Canada, but I read something about "wandering" police officers in the U.S.

That is, they get kicked out of one agency, and re-hired by another.

What happens when a police officer gets fired? Very often another police agency hires them.​


			https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/16/what-happens-when-police-officer-gets-fired-very-often-another-police-agency-hires-them/
		




> There are *17,985* police agencies in the United States which include city police departments, county sheriff's offices, state troopers, and federal law enforcement agencies.











						Census of State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies, 2008
					






					bjs.ojp.gov
				






> Presents the results of the Census of State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies, which is conducted every four years and covers approximately 18,000 law enforcement agencies nationwide.





> We'll always have cases like this because we have one big problem selecting police officers . . . we have to recruit from the human race.



Chief Bill Parker LAPD


----------



## Jarnhamar (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> I can only shake my head at the criminal sentencing. That said, it remains to be seen what the internal disciplinary consequences will be.



Unfortunately the optics of this really create an image of preferencial treatment. 
The Calgary Police sound just terrible to boot.

In your experience are internal disciplinary consequences for officers generally significant?


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Unfortunately the optics of this really create an image of preferencial treatment.
> The Calgary Police sound just terrible to boot.
> 
> In your experience are internal disciplinary consequences for officers generally significant?



Tough to say. I’ve seen some that go “WTF?” in either direction. I’ve also seen lots of appropriate ones where the penalty (usually measured in pay) was pretty proportionate to the boneheaded action that precipitated it. Eating a disciplinary conviction can also be majorly career limiting, particularly if you have aspirations of a good investigative role that could see you having to provide significant testimony in court. A lot of good investigative units won’t take people with a conduct record. And, I’ve seen people kicked out who absolutely should be. And a few who weren’t. It’s not perfect. I do know that my organization is moving towards presumptive termination for any misconduct conviction that has what CAF would call HISB at its root, and I don’t have any issue with that. Time for certain people to smarten up or get out.

One interesting nuance is that you can get a pardon for a criminal conviction after 5-10 years, but for many police services a conduct count - even a relatively minor one - may stay on your record and impact your career options for the entirety of your career.


----------



## mariomike (15 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> , but for many police services a conduct count - even a relatively minor one - may stay on your record and impact your career options for the entirety of your career.



It stays in your jacket forever. My father and I went to Ottawa to view the files of my uncle's crew - all KIA in France after D-Day.
Every two-bit report was in there. Some real chicken-sh#t stuff. These guys joined as teenagers.

Same where I worked. You have access to and are able to view your personnel file upon request. All disciplinary notations, evaluations, and all other adverse notations are in there. And don't try removing any. There is a supervisor across the table watching for that.


----------



## brihard (15 Dec 2022)

mariomike said:


> It stays in your jacket forever. My father and I went to Ottawa to view the files of my uncle's crew - all KIA in France after D-Day.
> Every two-bit report was in there. Some real chicken-sh#t stuff. These guys joined as teenagers.
> 
> Same where I worked. You have access to and are able to view your personnel file upon request. All disciplinary notations, evaluations, and all other adverse notations are in there. And don't try removing any. There is a supervisor across the table watching for that.


Yes, but in our case that comes with additional obligations to disclose any conduct history to crown prosecution for any future file we’re involved in ever. It’s a bit different from it staying quietly in a pers file.


----------



## Blackadder1916 (15 Dec 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Unfortunately the optics of this really create an image of preferencial treatment.
> The *Calgary Police* sound just terrible to boot.
> 
> In your experience are internal disciplinary consequences for officers generally significant?



CPS upcoming Professional Conduct Hearings





						Professional Conduct Hearings
					






					www.calgary.ca
				




CPS Formal Discipline 





						Formal Discipline
					






					www.calgary.ca
				




ALBERTA POLICE MISCONDUCT DATABASE








						Alberta Police Misconduct Database
					

The Database is a searchable directory of incidents of police misconduct in Alberta.




					www.policemisconductdatabase.ca


----------



## lenaitch (15 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> My Union self-polices its membership. We fought hard for the things we do have in our CBA and if you're a shit pump, we generally don't want you working with us.


All unions have a legal duty to represent their membership.  How zealously they do that varies.  I will admit some police associations aren't far off old-style Teamsters.  Labour and management each have their roles, but it is often when the two are at absolute loggerheads when things bog down and get dragged out.


brihard said:


> Yes, but in our case that comes with additional obligations to disclose any conduct history to crown prosecution for any future file we’re involved in ever. It’s a bit different from it staying quietly in a pers file.


R. vs MacNeil.  Members who are listed as witnesses in court proceedings are now expected to pro-actively disclose convictions and disciplinary findings (as per the MacNeil ruling) as part of the brief to the Crown, who is supposed to vet it prior to providing disclosure to the defence.  I think there is even a form or format for it in the reporting database.


----------



## Booter (16 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> I can only shake my head at the criminal sentencing. That said, it remains to be seen what the internal disciplinary consequences will be.


he won’t lose his job. It’ll get dragged out for years.

Sure we don’t “know” what will happen. But we kindve do.

Last week in Manitoba a Mountie who was using instagram to try hook up with underage girls he met at work kept his job, and the adjudicator said it wasn’t proven that brought discredit to the organization.

It should be incredibly easy to lose your job as a cop. I’m willing to go out on a limb and say we can write in two rules starting in the morning- dumping people out of wheelchairs and kicking people in the face means you lose your job. Asking girls when they turn 18 through social media after a traffic stop- you lose your job.

We’ll work from there.


----------



## CBH99 (16 Dec 2022)

mariomike said:


> It stays in your jacket forever. My father and I went to Ottawa to view the files of my uncle's crew - all KIA in France after D-Day.
> Every two-bit report was in there. Some real chicken-sh#t stuff. These guys joined as teenagers.
> 
> Same where I worked. You have access to and are able to view your personnel file upon request. All disciplinary notations, evaluations, and all other adverse notations are in there. And don't try removing any. There is a supervisor across the table watching for that.


I’m _loathe_ to admit this…

But you guys sound like your EMS department is pretty squared away.  

You can access your personnel file & view it upon request?  I doubt AHS could even find my file the same day if I had asked to see it.

(I had a complaint filed against me once.  A patient was convinced that we stole his sunglasses from his car…this was after he flipped his car about 5 times & anything that wasn’t bolted to the vehicle was no longer in the vehicle, including himself…)

It took HR close to 3 months to track me down & notify me.


----------



## mariomike (16 Dec 2022)

CBH99 said:


> You can access your personnel file & view it upon request?





> Article 36 –  ACCESS TO PERSONAL DEPARTMENTAL FILE
> 36.01 Shall have access to and be able to view their individual personnel file upon request.
> 36.02 The City agrees to provide photocopies of all disciplinary notations, all evaluations, all performance reports and all other adverse notations upon request, within a reasonable period, at no cost to the employee, once every 12 months.
> 36.03 No disciplinary notation, evaluation, performance report, or other adverse notation shall be added to the personnel file until a copy of such document has been provided to the employee





CBH99 said:


> I had a complaint filed against me once.



I think we all did.
"Complaint Investigation Policies and Procedures" ( CIPP )


			https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/9352-Toronto-Paramedic-Services-CIPP-May-25-2018.pdf


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Dec 2022)

Ottawa detectives showing off their keen vision. Managed to find a loaded pistol in plain sight after uniform police searched the appartment and walked through twice without seeing it.



			Ottawa police detective accused of planting handgun and stealing $50K in drug raid not showing up to face claims


----------



## dapaterson (22 Dec 2022)

Same guy is alleged to have taken $25k in another raid.  Unable to work, but still able to perform in a metal cover band.

He also claimed other Ottawa police were present at that raid.  He appears to have only a passing acquaintance with the truth when testifying in court.


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Dec 2022)

Man that Ottawa PD sounds like quite the good investment of tax dollars.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Man that Ottawa PD sounds like quite the good investment of tax dollars.


I mean they probably write a lot of traffic tickets and if they skim a little off the top and some of that money ends up in a councillor's pocket?  That's a win-win right?  😄


----------



## Halifax Tar (23 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I mean they probably write a lot of traffic tickets and if they skim a little off the top and some of that money ends up in a councillor's pocket?  That's a win-win right?  😄



So Ottawa city is just a micro reflection of the corrupt Federal Gov based in that town lol


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> So Ottawa city is just a micro reflection of the corrupt Federal Gov based in that town lol


----------



## brihard (23 Dec 2022)

Ottawa’s a mess. Mostly good people but parking hard on the road, like anywhere, but clearly enough of a leavening of bad ones to keep them in the news, plus some shitty and toxic upper leadership. Senior leadership of Ontario police services tend to bounce around between different services and to be kind of incestuous… Ottawa hired a Mountie from B.C. to be its new chief to I think bring in someone completely outside that. We’ll see if it works.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Ottawa’s a mess. Mostly good people but parking hard on the road, like anywhere, but clearly enough of a leavening of bad ones to keep them in the news, plus some shitty and toxic upper leadership. Senior leadership of Ontario police services tend to bounce around between different services and to be kind of incestuous… Ottawa hired a Mountie from B.C. to be its new chief to I think bring in someone completely outside that. We’ll see if it works.








I have a few friends who are now OPS Police Officers, I feel bad for them because the force is always in the news for the wrong reasons and I know they are good people who just try to show up at work and do their job.


----------



## brihard (23 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I have a few friends who are now OPS Police Officers, I feel bad for them because the force is always in the news for the wrong reasons and I know they are good people who just try to show up at work and do their job.


It was funny going through training and being on the job with a mixed crew of ex CAF and civilians. Totally divergent perspectives on various forms of shiftiness and discomfort, as well as leadership.


----------



## daftandbarmy (23 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> It was funny going through training and being on the job with a mixed crew of ex CAF and civilians. Totally divergent perspectives on various forms of shiftiness and discomfort, as well as leadership.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (23 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> It was funny going through training and being on the job with a mixed crew of ex CAF and civilians. Totally divergent perspectives on various forms of shiftiness and discomfort, as well as leadership.


I see it now in my current line of work.  My "richter scale" of what is classified as 'shitty' is WAY OFF what some of my compatriots think.  It's probably why they like hiring ex-military guys at my work.  We don't know any better LOL.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (23 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I see it now in my current line of work.  My "richter scale" of what is classified as 'shitty' is WAY OFF what some of my compatriots think.  It's probably why they like hiring ex-military guys at my work.  We don't know any better LOL.


Its not just the military.

For example cooks tend to work much longer hours than most, worse hours, random erratic hours where sometimes they will cancel your shifts last minute. Many are expected to work through their unpaid breaks or to interrupt them at the drop of a dime, and to top it all off they are paid slightly more than the person tending the register. Many former cooks I know who transitioned into other lines of work are amazed at how poorly they were treated in comparison to everywhere else. The net result being those still in the trade usually don't know any better and those who get out end up shocked with what others consider 'shitty'.


----------



## mariomike (24 Dec 2022)

> It was funny going through training and being on the job with a mixed crew of ex CAF and civilians.





Humphrey Bogart said:


> It's probably why they like hiring ex-military guys at my work.





> For example cooks tend to work much longer hours than most, worse hours, random erratic hours where sometimes they will cancel your shifts last minute.



Emergency services is a good fit for ex CAF.









						Becoming a Paramedic
					

In Ontario, any person who would like to become a paramedic must attend a recognized college or university paramedic program and pass a number of medical exams, provincial exams and physical fitness requirements.   Click here to find out more about becoming a paramedic as well as what you need...




					www.ontarioparamedic.ca
				












						CF experience relevant to RCMP, civ policing? (merged)
					

Hey Sir Mariomike,  Yes #174 is me. I understand that joining the police service, all must start from the bottom.   May I ask, did you serve in the military as medtech?   Medical field and policing are two different responsibilities (quoting JesseWZ), and I am wondering if it is not a bad or...




					army.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy (24 Dec 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Its not just the military.
> 
> For example cooks tend to work much longer hours than most, worse hours, random erratic hours where sometimes they will cancel your shifts last minute. Many are expected to work through their unpaid breaks or to interrupt them at the drop of a dime, and to top it all off they are paid slightly more than the person tending the register. Many former cooks I know who transitioned into other lines of work are amazed at how poorly they were treated in comparison to everywhere else. The net result being those still in the trade usually don't know any better and those who get out end up shocked with what others consider 'shitty'.



If there were only a way to find out about how crappy that job is in advance by watching a TV program or something.

Oh, wait.....


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Dec 2022)

Shittiness triumphs when the good people don't work sufficiently hard to deal with it.


----------



## RedFive (24 Dec 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Shittiness triumphs when the good people don't work sufficiently hard to deal with it.


What if the good people have been working too long and too hard to overcome it and finally just stop working hard? Everybody gets the same pay and benefits after all...


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Dec 2022)

RedFive said:


> What if the good people have been working too long and too hard to overcome it and finally just stop working hard? Everybody gets the same pay and benefits after all...



'Quiet quitting' enters the chat:


When Quiet Quitting Is Worse Than the Real Thing​
While most employers understand the challenges associated with resignations, a new trend — quiet quitting — has somewhat more-nuanced implications for organizations. Quiet quitters continue to perform all their regular work, but they refuse to go above and beyond and engage in what researchers refer to as citizenship behaviors. And to be sure, for jobs with responsibilities that can be fully defined in advance, this isn’t necessarily problematic. But many companies rely on a workforce that’s willing to step up and take on extra tasks when necessary. Furthermore, workers themselves benefit when they engage in citizenship behaviors, both in terms of their personal wellbeing and their professional growth. As such, this trend has the potential to harm not only employers, but employees as well — and it’s up to leaders to understand and address its root causes. In this piece, the authors identify three research-backed strategies for managers and leaders: redefine workers’ core job tasks; listen, then invest in employees; and replace an unhealthy hustle culture with sustainable “citizenship crafting.”









						When Quiet Quitting Is Worse Than the Real Thing
					

While most employers understand the challenges associated with resignations, a new trend — quiet quitting — has somewhat more-nuanced implications for organizations. Quiet quitters continue to perform all their regular work, but they refuse to go above and beyond and engage in what researchers...




					hbr.org


----------



## brihard (25 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> 'Quiet quitting' enters the chat:
> 
> 
> When Quiet Quitting Is Worse Than the Real Thing​
> ...


In the police world it’s called ‘FIDO’- ‘Fuck it, drive on’. The constant pressure from the public to make no mistakes, and the constant pressure form management to do the same but also to humbly eat a big shit sandwich when there’s a complaint (legit or not), has worn a lot of cops down. Cops will still attend the dispatched calls, but so much of the proactive and speculative crime detection and prevention work has stopped happening. Police who used to stop and talk to known gang members they saw out and about - and maybe in doing so detect bail breaches, or spot someone carrying a gun - won’t do it anymore. Same with a lot of proactive traffic stops… It’s unfortunate to see because a lot of buds no longer get nipped.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> In the P olice world it’s called ‘FIDO’- ‘Fuck it, drive on’. The constant pressure from the public to make no mistakes, and the constant pressure form management to do the same but also to humbly eat a big shit sandwich when there’s a complaint (legit or not), has worn a lot of cops down. Cops will still attend the dispatched calls, but so much of the proactive and speculative crime detection and prevention work has stopped happening. Police who used to stop and talk to known gang members they saw out and about - and maybe in doing so detect bail breaches, or spot someone carrying a gun - won’t do it anymore. Same with a lot of proactive traffic stops… It’s unfortunate to see because a lot of buds no longer get nipped.



Taylor called it 'Soldiering', which remains a problem in most organizations, although in the examples you mentioned it seems more like self-preservation of one form or another:

*Soldiering *_
_
Frederick Taylor sought to reduce slow workers by improving work relationships between employers and employees to work at the very best advantage, speed of work and management to help (Taylor, 1911). While Taylor’s work is considered his own, some academics argue that his work is an embodiment of attitudes of time and discipline taken from other theories. Taylor sought to control ‘Soldiering’ which he broke down into two separate forms:

Natural-Soldiering: Workers are naturally lazy, due to a range of reasons of being unmotivated and finding work boring. Taylor saw characteristics of good management of motivation and rewards of advancement ways to improve natural-Soldiering, as Employees had a motive to achieve and perform to a good standard. Amabile (1996) states that employee motivation is a central problem for managers, as unmotivated employees are likely to spend little effort in their jobs. Amabile states that using creativity is essential to improve employee motivation and produce high quality work.

Systematic-Soldiering: Workers conspired together to work as a calm, comfortable work rate. Taylor saw this as a problem that was more difficult to overcome as it related to the group norms of the company. Activities where timed to prevent employees from taking it easy. According to Pascual-Ezama, Prelec and Dunfield (2011) in their research they conducted on over 500 employees they found that* a lack of supervision promoted cheating between workers, in the forms of short cuts and longer breaks taken. Dishonesty was also seen to achieve social rewards such as prestige and recognition for a task. It’s interesting to note that Taylors Systematic Soldiering is still a problem in today’s modern society (Price, 2007).*









						Scientific Management and Fredrick Taylor
					

Who is Fredrick Taylor and what is Scientific management? Frederick Winslow Taylor (1856 -1915) was born in Philadelphia in the United States, an educated man who studied at Harvard University. During the Depression period Frederick Taylor was an industrial apprentice, this was 1873.




					www.linkedin.com


----------



## mariomike (25 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Cops will still attend the dispatched calls, but so much of the proactive and speculative crime detection and prevention work has stopped happening.



That's nice to know.  

Sometimes responding from couches while watching TV - and monitoring their portable radios - in paramedic stations, and presumably, fire houses as well.

Foot patrol officers in stations were a common sight.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> In the police world it’s called ‘FIDO’- ‘Fuck it, drive on’. The constant pressure from the public to make no mistakes, and the constant pressure form management to do the same but also to humbly eat a big shit sandwich when there’s a complaint (legit or not), has worn a lot of cops down. Cops will still attend the dispatched calls, but so much of the proactive and speculative crime detection and prevention work has stopped happening. Police who used to stop and talk to known gang members they saw out and about - and maybe in doing so detect bail breaches, or spot someone carrying a gun - won’t do it anymore. Same with a lot of proactive traffic stops… It’s unfortunate to see because a lot of buds no longer get nipped.



I get it and can I can see why.  And it's sad.


----------



## RedFive (25 Dec 2022)

It's definitely something I battle with myself the longer into a shift I get and the more tired I get. 

I'm also now in an acting supervisor role where its my job to motivate my guys to go out and do the work, and it can be challenging. The juice is almost never worth the squeeze, especially when more and more work gets dumped on the member and a decent catch while proactive can usually consume the rest of your shift, hours you needed to deal with an already overwhelming work queue and of course you're now not helping your buddies deal with the routine calls for service.


----------



## Booter (25 Dec 2022)

RedFive said:


> It's definitely something I battle with myself the longer into a shift I get and the more tired I get.
> 
> I'm also now in an acting supervisor role where its my job to motivate my guys to go out and do the work, and it can be challenging. The juice is almost never worth the squeeze, especially when more and more work gets dumped on the member and a decent catch while proactive can usually consume the rest of your shift, hours you needed to deal with an already overwhelming work queue and of course you're now not helping your buddies deal with the routine calls for service.


There really isn’t “time” for proactive work in most busy places now because of the competing, ever changing weekly demands coming from exec level. We had an astronomical amount of proactive work done in my detachment- but it was powered on OT exclusively. 

It also generated an incredible amount of complaints- which are bogus. But serving paperwork on people for complaints generated for ripping drugs and guns doesn’t feel right. 

So they see bad guy skate. They get an investigation. Why would they?


----------



## mariomike (25 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> In this piece, the authors identify three research-backed strategies for managers and leaders: redefine workers’ core job tasks; listen, then invest in employees; and replace an unhealthy hustle culture with sustainable “citizenship crafting.”



In emergency services, best strategy to "replace an unhealthy hustle culture" was to spare the pep talks, and ensure the car count was maintained at levels required to ensure compliance with the municipal Response Time Standard.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (26 Dec 2022)

A big factor for too much work is the fact the courts keep releasing the same criminals on bail (which they then break) over and over again. I can’t imagine anything more demoralizing than arresting the same criminals day after day with no change in result. I know a couple local cops that have told me they have had to arrest the same person within hours, before they have even fully dealt with the paperwork from their last offence. And they still get immediate bail. 

Quiet quitting makes sense many workforces. If you fail to make people wish to work harder for you by treating them poorly of course people are going to do the minimum. The only difference between a few years ago and now is the labour market has swung in favour of the employee.


----------



## Good2Golf (26 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> But many companies rely on *take advantage of* a workforce that’s willing to step up and take on extra tasks when necessary. Furthermore, workers *find* themselves *failing to* benefit when they engage in citizenship behaviors, both in terms of their personal wellbeing and their professional growth.


One could consider the writer a shill for the manipulative employer the way the original was written.



daftandbarmy said:


> While Taylor’s work is considered his own, some academics argue that his work is an embodiment of attitudes of time and discipline taken from other theories.


Yup, sounds like academics…critique rather than do…


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> A big factor for too much work is the fact the courts keep releasing the same criminals on bail (which they then break) over and over again. I can’t imagine anything more demoralizing than arresting the same criminals day after day with no change in result. I know a couple local cops that have told me they have had to arrest the same person within hours, before they have even fully dealt with the paperwork from their last offence. And they still get immediate bail.
> 
> Quiet quitting makes sense many workforces. If you fail to make people wish to work harder for you by treating them poorly of course people are going to do the minimum. The only difference between a few years ago and now is the labour market has swung in favour of the employee.


They’ll usually still get charged, but yeah, revolving door bail does suck. It creates a feeling of impunity in habitual criminals, and frankly it can dangerously up the stakes if we have to arrest them subsequently and they figure this time they ARE gonna stay in a while.

Bail, in a frictionless vacuum, is a good thing. It respects the presumption of innocence, it’s concordant with the reality that many people absolutely can be safely released and are unlikely to commit new offences serious enough to merit holding them in jail as a precaution.

However, with habitual/career criminals, this really breaks down. Offences that arise out of serious addictions issues, such as chronic property crime to fund an addiction, or random drug-induced violence, are going to recur. Likewise habitual street gang level crime where there’s chronic property or violence crimes by people who simply have accepted that as a lifestyle. I also don’t think we do a good enough job of tightly gripping on to domestic violence perpetrators.

Unfortunately we have a pendulum that has been swinging wildly, and is currently dangerously far over to one end of the spectrum. It makes one question whether the work is even worth doing sometimes, and that’s a dangerous mindset to slip into.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (26 Dec 2022)

To me bail should be guaranteed the first time provided the crime isn’t extreme. Once on bail you should have conditions which if you break results in going to jail immediately. One of those conditions should be not to be charged again. I don’t see why that is so complicated to enact.


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> To me bail should be guaranteed the first time provided the crime isn’t extreme. Once on bail you should have conditions which if you break results in going to jail immediately. One of those conditions should be not to be charged again. I don’t see why that is so complicated to enact.



Define “extreme” for us, please. You’re completey ignoring the primary and secondary grounds for detention, and skipping right to only a single one of the tertiary grounds for which pre-trial detention is sought.

There are quite a number of good reasons to hold someone in custody, there’s a TON of case law on the matter, and JPs (and occasionally judges) have many things that they consider in a judicial interim release hearing.

Criminal Law Notebook has a good primer on the reasons detention might be sought:






						Grounds for Detention - Criminal Law Notebook
					






					criminalnotebook.ca


----------



## dapaterson (26 Dec 2022)

And then there's the JP who called bail court "dysfunctional and punitive bodies, devoid of the rule of law" and hurt the Crown's fee-fees.









						Court dismisses review for justice of the peace facing removal from office over newspaper column
					

Julie Lauzon had argued that her speech was protected by her right to freedom of expression.




					ottawacitizen.com


----------



## daftandbarmy (26 Dec 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> One could consider the writer a shill for the manipulative employer the way the original was written.
> 
> 
> Yup, sounds like academics…critique rather than do…



Yeah, Taylorism isn't much in vogue anymore except, in its more modern forms, with those countries that are regularly outproducing us 

Regardless, unsupervised staff regularly under-perform well supervised staff. 

The thing here is to select, train and otherwise prepare supervisors and staff to do a good job in any workplace environment forced upon them (e.g., socially distanced) as opposed to just stumbling into it without any kind of preparation whatsoever.


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2022)

dapaterson said:


> And then there's the JP who called bail court "dysfunctional and punitive bodies, devoid of the rule of law" and hurt the Crown's fee-fees.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Worth noting that she was removed from office for misconduct over this, and has been sitting on effectively a paid suspension for two years. Provincial superior court has already upheld the removal; she’s currently appealing that to the Ontario Court of Appeal. Certainly though, she is one opinion among many… I’d contend that in any profession you’ll find serious contrarians at the far end of any spectrum of views.

It’s also worth noting that her column was published in 2016, and that there have been several significant changes to bail law and practice since that time, particularly Bill C-75 in 2021.

Any mature discussion about bail has to take into account a few at times conflicting realities. One of those is that there is a proportion of chronic offenders who simply cannot and will not be controlled during interim release. Any cast net of bail policy will be a difficult effort to catch these individuals without ‘overfishing’ and sweeping up those for whom bail conditions could be effective. The corollary is that a more cautious approach that sees more people released, for whom bail is effective, will also see more released who will go right back to rampant theft and sporadic violence.

I also believe that any mature conversation about bail will be lacking if it doesn’t acknowledge the gross deficiency in meaningful drug treatment and housing, but also the under resourcing of the criminal Justice system that makes _meaningful_ enforcement of bail conditions very hard.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (26 Dec 2022)

My wife prep for being called to the Bar her, had her working the downtown Courts. She was utterly shocked at the workload on the Crown lawyers and the fact that defendants were showing up stoned and everyone could tell, but pretended not to see. In Malaysia, that would automatically see you into a rehab centre, no trial or anything. She was less than impressed how our legal system deals with habitual criminals.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Dec 2022)

As long as we put up with a lot of sh!t, we'll have a lot of sh!t to put up with.

Not enough of the people at the top are getting their garages and toolsheds burgled.  They live isolated from the consequences of their choices.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Dec 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> My wife prep for being called to the Bar her, had her working the downtown Courts. She was utterly shocked at the workload on the Crown lawyers and the fact that defendants were showing up stoned and everyone could tell, but pretended not to see. In Malaysia, that would automatically see you into a rehab centre, no trial or anything. She was less than impressed how our legal system deals with habitual criminals.


Change "system" to "industry".


----------



## mariomike (26 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> It was funny going through training and being on the job with a mixed crew of ex CAF and civilians. Totally divergent perspectives on various forms of shiftiness and discomfort, as well as leadership.



Not sure if ex CAF get special consideration out of town.

Toronto Police Service:
I am a current/past member of the military. Do I get special consideration?​Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate.


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2022)

mariomike said:


> Not sure if ex CAF get special consideration out of town.
> 
> Toronto Police Service:
> I am a current/past member of the military. Do I get special consideration?​Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate.


I’ve never heard of former CAF getting any different entry process save for badged MPs. CAF experience _may_ help to articulate some of what they’re looking for, but alternatively some troops go cop and fail to realize the need to change gears and end up struggling. The one is very much not like the other in most truly important ways.


----------



## RedFive (26 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Define “extreme” for us, please. You’re completey ignoring the primary and secondary grounds for detention, and skipping right to only a single one of the tertiary grounds for which pre-trial detention is sought.
> 
> There are quite a number of good reasons to hold someone in custody, there’s a TON of case law on the matter, and JPs (and occasionally judges) have many things that they consider in a judicial interim release hearing.
> 
> ...



I once wrote the bail comments for a dial-a-doper who made a grab for a member's pistol, then managed to get that same member's CEW when they defended their pistol and deployed it into himself and the member, taking them both down. He was so high he wasn't feeling any pain, and had nearly superhuman strength. The resulting ground fight ended with injuries to the suspect and three members. The response to the open mic's and 10-33 button being pressed on the radio brought nearly 60 cops from two Detachments and one Municipal force to the scene.

He'd been convicted of assaulting police officers SIX times previously, amongst a laundry list of other offences. Immediately released. I had to go back and re-read my comments and double check the information I had put forward. It was all accurate and well done. Oh, and then we were all named subject members by the IIO because in a fight for our lives with a coked up drug dealer trying to kill us, we gave him some boo boo's. That was the day the shine wore off for me and I began to stop thinking anybody cares about us doing our jobs.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (26 Dec 2022)

RedFive said:


> I once wrote the bail comments for a dial-a-doper who made a grab for a member's pistol, then managed to get that same member's CEW when they defended their pistol and deployed it into himself and the member, taking them both down. He was so high he wasn't feeling any pain, and had nearly superhuman strength. The resulting ground fight ended with injuries to the suspect and three members. The response to the open mic's and 10-33 button being pressed on the radio brought nearly 60 cops from two Detachments and one Municipal force to the scene.
> 
> He'd been convicted of assaulting police officers SIX times previously, amongst a laundry list of other offences. Immediately released. I had to go back and re-read my comments and double check the information I had put forward. It was all accurate and well done. Oh, and then we were all named subject members by the IIO because in a fight for our lives with a coked up drug dealer trying to kill us, we gave him some boo boo's. *That was the day the shine wore off for me and I began to stop thinking anybody cares about us doing our jobs.*


They care about you doing your job, they just don't care what happens to you in the process of doing it. That's the ugly truth and you're not the only profession that suffers from that problem. 

Basically every essential service is the same.  People want you to do the job but they don't care what happens to you as a result of doing it.  

In the General Public's mind, you're well compensated, many probably think, even if they don't say it, that you're paid too much. 

You better watch the hatred get spewed the minute you stop providing the service though, the knives will all come out and the Politicians will have your head on a spike faster than you can snap your fingers to appease their constituents 😉.


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> They care about you doing your job, they just don't care what happens to you in the process of doing it. That's the ugly truth and you're not the only profession that suffers from that problem.
> 
> Basically every essential service is the same.  People want you to do the job but they don't care what happens to you as a result of doing it.
> 
> ...


Oh, don’t worry, we know.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (27 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Oh, don’t worry, we know.


It's the same in every essential service.  The Police used to have the benefit that at least the upper brass and the authorities were generally on your side.

That doesn't seem to be the case anymore, now you're, as we say on the Railroad, taking it from both ends.

Look after yourselves out there because nobody is going to help when SHTF and you become expendable and a persona-non-grata.


----------



## OldSolduer (27 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> It's the same in every essential service.  The Police used to have the benefit that at least the upper brass and the authorities were generally on your side.
> 
> That doesn't seem to be the case anymore, now you're, as we say on the Railroad, taking it from both ends.
> 
> Look after yourselves out there because nobody is going to help when SHTF and you become expendable and a persona-non-grata.


You just won the internet for the day. Where I work, the seg inmates are treated with kid gloves. Woe betide the staff who deny them their half hour out of the cell despite threats to the staff and their families.

One of my peers was "shit blasted" and he should have sought medical attention ASP but the Duty Officer made him rewrite his report THREE TIMES before he was allowed to go. SO yes from both ends is true.


----------



## brihard (27 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> You just won the internet for the day. Where I work, the seg inmates are treated with kid gloves. Woe betide the staff who deny them their half hour out of the cell despite threats to the staff and their families.
> 
> One of my peers was "shit blasted" and he should have sought medical attention ASP but the Duty Officer made him rewrite his report THREE TIMES before he was allowed to go. SO yes from both ends is true.



Shit blasted as in literally getting shit on him?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Shit blasted as in literally getting shit on him?


Not an unusual occurrence. ....


----------



## OldSolduer (28 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Shit blasted as in literally getting shit on him?


Yes - you urinate in a styro cup, shit in it, let it liquefy and then toss it at someone. It is a thing. 

Anyone that does this should be charged criminally with assault.


----------



## brihard (28 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Yes - you urinate in a styro cup, shit in it, let it liquefy and then toss it at someone. It is a thing.
> 
> Anyone that does this should be charged criminally with assault.


Yes. Yes they should. And any manager who stands in the way of prompt medical care needs to go apply at McDonalds.


----------



## medicineman (28 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Yes. Yes they should. And any manager who stands in the way of prompt medical care needs to go apply at McDonalds for a non-management position like bathroom cleaner.


FTFY.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (28 Dec 2022)

medicineman said:


> FTFY.


I do believe there is inherent value in working the shit jobs before you become a manager.  

At least so you know what suffering is 😁


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Yes - you urinate in a styro cup, shit in it, let it liquefy and then toss it at someone. It is a thing.
> 
> Anyone that does this should be charged criminally with assault.


And not worth the squeeze since no matter what the sentence might be (lots of time one extra day) it will be "served consecutive ".

The game is savings folks....get 'em out quicker so they cost less.


----------



## medicineman (29 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I do believe there is inherent value in working the shit jobs before you become a manager.
> 
> At least so you know what suffering is 😁


Also that whole "achieve professional competency" thing - can't supervise to standard if you really haven't a clue what it is...


----------



## OldSolduer (29 Dec 2022)

medicineman said:


> Also that whole "achieve professional competency" thing - can't supervise to standard if you really haven't a clue what it is...


What's this "competency" thing you speak of?


----------



## medicineman (29 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> What's this "competency" thing you speak of?


I try to give people the benefit of the doubt if I don't really know them...


----------

