# Applying from outside Canada  (Merged)



## macknightcr (11 Jun 2009)

Alright I am 21 years old and just now applying to RMC, here in the states I graduated high school with a 3.2 GPA then attended a local University where I found partying to be my downfall and had a horrible GPA 1.8 (I think).  Since then I have attended another school and my GPA is now a 3.5.  I have played hockey my whole life, coached it a little, I'm a volunteer fire fighter, a member/founder of a running club, play flag football with friends on weekends, work 40 hours a week, while at my "failure of a university" I joined a fraternity and we raised thousands of dollars for cancer research, we walk in the relay for life, and we helped a local sorority raise money for Hurricane Katrina relief, and my father attended and graduated from RMC in '81.  Do I sound like I have a chance of getting in?  I have always wanted to join the military and attend a military school, growing up in the states everyone talks about Annapolis, but I have always wanted to go to RMC.


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## SupersonicMax (11 Jun 2009)

You need to be a Canadian Citizen to apply at RMC.  I don't know your background exactly, I tought you'd need to know.

Second, your best bet is to actually go to a recruiting center and apply.  No one here can tell you wether or not you will make it.


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## macknightcr (11 Jun 2009)

I am a Canadian Citizen, and am in the process of sending all the required documents to a recruiting center in Ontario.  I have also filled out the on line application so I have a file opened with the Canadian Forces.


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## tabernac (11 Jun 2009)

You sound like one of my friends who's entering 2nd year at RMC right now. He lived down south for 4 years, and got into RMC quite easily. But things do change from year to year.


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## Japexican (6 Jul 2009)

I was in the exact same situation 6 yrs ago.  I graduated RMC in 08, came from Texas, doing pilot crap now.  I`ll try to address everything, but it`s been awhile, so I`ll probably miss something.

Step 1:  Call the recruiting centre in Ottawa.  They are the ones that handle the recruiting for the region outside of Canada.  Get things going as soon as possible with them.  My experience was that they did not like dealing with me from outside the country... I had to take the initiative wrt paperwork.    

Note: they only cover your travel expenses for Canada, ie if you buy a plane ticket from Virginia to Ottawa, they will give you money for your taxi from the Ottawa airport to the NDHQ headquarters.  

Step 2:  Medical- I`m a bit sketchy on this one, but if memory serves me right, you need to make sure that you have your medical scheduled in the same time frame as your initial interview, aptitude test and piss test, if not you end up making another trip.

Step 3: Enrollment- Enrollment ceremony is a bit before your course will start (are new cadets back to doing initial training at St Jean, or still at RMC?).  Anyways, you show up for enrollment, take some time off (depending on training course) and catch the bus to RMC or the MEGA in St Jean.

Step 4: Getting stuff sent from the US to Canada, either at RMC or once you leave RMC: the military won`t pay for it.  You are entitled for a move from your place of enrollment (Ottawa) when you are posted, not where you moved from.  For almost everyone these two places are one and the same, but not for you.  If you have any furniture that you can't ship, might as well sell it.

Lastly, what trade are you gunning for?  If you are going for aircrew, the process is different... check the million aircrew posts.

that's what I got... cheers


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## SpyGuy101 (10 Jul 2009)

Let me clarify a couple of points from my experience. I have two sons who applied from the US: one is going into his final year next year; and the other missed the deadline for an application this year, so will be applying next.

We started my son's application online, but at some point early in the process, you need to actually go into the CFRC to speak with whomever is responsible for your file.  For my son who made it into RMC< there were in the space of a year, three different custodians of his file, which made continuity on outstanding issues/paperwork quite entertaining.

We forwarded all the application material through CFRC Toronto. We had no dealings with Ottawa. No one indicated that Ottawa looked after out of country recruiting.
In hindsight, I would likely have had my sons deal with a smaller CFRC like London: easier to get to from where we are and less likelihood of paperword getting lost (happened to us three times).  Two couriered packages that were signed for at the front desk of the CFRC were lost somewhere inside the building.
One lesson learned:  follow up on any paperwork submitted within the week to confirm it has made it into your file.  The lost paperwork was part of the reason my son missed the submission deadline this past year and was not considered. In hindsight, he did submit it late in the process, but nonetheless, having it lost at the CFRC was not something you expect.

CF only pays for any travel from border to CFRC. Travel to border was our responsibility. We drove him up so it wasn't that big an expense, but it something to factor that into your budget. 

We were able to get the medical, and other tests combined into one appointment by continually pushing the issue. We ended up talking with the Det Comd to get this sorted out.

You will need to complete a request through the FBI for a 'police check'.  I am going to say it was a security check, but that is likely the wrong term.  Anyway, someone can correct me on terminology, but essentially this is required from the FBI to confirm that you have no outstanding convictions etc from your time in the US. There is a fairly standard fax format you complete and fire in that is completed pretty quickly.

Swearing in ceremony took place at CFRC Toronto and was well in advance of my son's course.  Plan on a good half day cause there always seems to be some last minute paperwork to complete.

Anyway, our experiences for what it's worth.


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## macknightcr (2 Oct 2009)

As the title says, I am in the process of applying to RMC while living in Virginia.  I am curious to know what anyone else experienced, either applying to RMC or to the CF from America.  

As of now my process has been very smooth, but I am still waiting on my FBI background check in order to move along and hopefully be accepted to RMC.


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## SupersonicMax (2 Oct 2009)

Isn't it your second thread you start discussing the same issue?


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## Big Foot (2 Oct 2009)

You're not the first and you certainly won't be the last; I know people who got into RMC from as far away as England and Germany as well as several people from the States. Best of luck to you,


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## macknightcr (2 Oct 2009)

This is a similar thread.  In the last one I was wondering if I was a suitable candidate for RMC.  In this one I am curious to know what people went through (hurdles they had to cross) while joining the CF from the States.


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## George Wallace (2 Oct 2009)

macknightcr said:
			
		

> This is a similar thread.  In the last one I was wondering if I was a suitable candidate for RMC.  In this one I am curious to know what people went through (hurdles they had to cross) while joining the CF from the States.



Why don't I just merge the two for you anyway.......


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## macknightcr (4 Oct 2009)

Just an update.  I recieved my FBI Background check in the mail yesterday and it was clear, no arrest record.  I faxed it to the Recruiting Centre in Ottawa to the Recruiter I have been talking to.  What do I have left to look forward to?  Medical checks, papers to sign, and when would I find out if I am accepted to RMC?


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## marlborough (15 Oct 2009)

So, I've been having a few problems with the recruiting centre and was wondering if anyone else is in the same boat.  I'm currently in the process of applying from Mexico

- My story starts three weeks ago, when I sent in my application.  

- A couple of days after that, I called to ask what I could do from Mexico, was sent in a few circles, and ultimately got an answer that I could do nothing.

- I decided then that I'd better ask for an extension to the 60-day limit of coming in personally to the recruiting office (I didn't know about this beforehand), so I talked to a recruiter online, he gave me his e-mail and said that he would forward my request to my CFRC (Ottawa), and he did so.  After 5 business days, I still hadn't heard from them, so I sent a message to the MCpl. who forwarded my e-mail.  (That was 3/4 days ago now and I have not received an answer).

- Within that 5 day period I also read on this board that others HAD been able to move their applications forward while outside of the country, and had been able to schedule all their tests on a single day while they're home.  This seemed like a good idea.  I sent an e-mail to a recruiter who I was told had been helping someone else in my situation form Ottawa.  (This may have been a mistake...)

- I also, last Friday, the 9th, was finally able to contact the CFRC by phone, explained my situation, and was told that it was no problem, I would just have to call the person who set up appointments, here's his number.  I called a few times, and never managed to talk to him.  So I left a message with my e-mail address and my situation, but have not yet received any information.  (This was last Friday remember.  So only 4 days so far).

I feel like I'm being treated unprofessionally.  If I've submitted an application has a specific officer been assigned to my case?  If so, how can I contact him/her?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Julian


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## harry8422 (15 Oct 2009)

Keep in mind that the CFRC are extremely busy people and with you saying that you only submitted your application 3 weeks ago......be prepared for a long wait as there are many people ahead of you, that being said good luck with your process and hope to see you with the flag on your shoulder.


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## medaid (15 Oct 2009)

Julian,

Go back and read through the recruiting threads.

Average time line for recruiting is approx. 6 months. That is if you're not applying to a closed MOC, all of your ducks are in order, and you're available to answer and qurstions about your file.

Keep in mine that you are neither special nor are you the only one in the system. To be honest, there are way more applicants in country to screen and process before they may get to yours.

3 weeks is nothing.


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## marlborough (15 Oct 2009)

I appreciate your responses.

The problem I am having is that I have done a few things for which I have been told to expect an answer in 5 days, and if I don't receive an answer, to contact them. 

The MAIN problem of my case is that I'm currently in Mexico.  When I get back to Canada in December, I may only be there for a short time.  I was under the impression that, for people outside the country, there was the possibility of getting appointments while you are home.


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## marlborough (26 Feb 2010)

Sooo... it's been 4 months or so.  About time for an update.

I ended up coming back to Canada for second (this) semester, and put an application in in person to CFRC Halifax on January 3rd.  I did my medical, interview and CFAT (57/60! yea, they told me...) before the end of the month, and was put on aircrew selection in February.  I just recently returned having failed for pilot but passing for ACSO.

I only have 1 1/2 years of university left, so this is my last chance to do ROTP.  As it stands, I'm moving my application ahead for ACSO, but what I really want to do is fly planes.  It seems that my only options are to take ACSO and stick with it for the 4/5 years until I can do a component transfer, or wait until I've graduated and then re-do ACS in Trenton and hope that there are DEO spots for pilot in a year.  

I wish there was some way I could join through ROTP now with the intent of doing ACS in a years time and have ACSO as a fall back.  This would be ideal because then the military would pay for my school and I would have enough money to do my PPL.  It seems that this is impossible though.

I have a lot to think about while the ROTP board sits.  Any input's appreciated.


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## JB 11 11 (14 May 2010)

I am a Canadian currently on posting in Italy with my Wife, who works for Foreign Affairs Canada. We're looking at coming home in the next year or so and the plan is settling down in the Ottawa region. My plan is to go reg force, as its been something I've been wanting to do for a very long time, and now that we're back in country, I'll have my chance.

My questions are these: 
- What can I do NOW from Italy that will help the process along? 
- Does my Civvie Security Clearance from working at the embassy count for anything with the CF?
- We have a visit home in October (ottawa), I am thinking that I could pop into the recruiting centre and get most if not all of the testing and interviews out of the way. Is this feasible?

As for what and where I am thinking of going Sigs up at Pet, 2 area spuport group Signals or there abouts, not sure of the exact structure of things in that regard. But we have a new Defence attaché coming in this August and he used to be a brigade commander at Pet. so I can educate myself a little in the meantime.

Thanks,
JB


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## Pokiey (14 May 2010)

You might want to try speaking with one of the online recruiters through forces.ca or call the Ottawa CFRC - they would be able to tell you for sure what you'd be able to do to get the ball rolling.  

Good luck!!!


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## McD (14 May 2010)

Try the online recruiter for sure. The only thing I can think of is your te out of country slowing down the background check? Of course your situation is unique and this isn't "my lane" 

But you can apply online perhaps you might want to see if you can start it now that way ?  And how are you sure you'll get your trade in your desired geographic location? If you are going regular force it was my understanding that you can be accompdated in requests such as this but it's never gauranteed. 

Regardless all the best and I wish you success! And a side note where in Italy are you? I think there may be just the one embassy in Rome , no?  Spent quite a bit of time in Florence, I wish I had my "mean time" while I wait , in Italy haha. Good luck


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## JB 11 11 (15 May 2010)

I think I'll definitely call the recruiting centre. I tried to chat with a recruiter on line, but was told to go talk to someone (?!).  

As for trades... Im not sure about anything. I have a clear idea of where I want to go, and will see what they say in terms of whats do-able and whats not. 

And I am indeed in Rome. We have one embassy here in Rome as well as the Mission to the Vatican. Outside of that we have LES (Locally Engaged Staff) working satellite offices/consulates in various cities in our area of responsibility as well, such as Malta, San Marino and Albania. 
Believe it or not, after being here a year and a half, I have yet to get up to Florence! But plan on doing a bike trip up there this summer.


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## JB 11 11 (21 Sep 2010)

UPDATE:

So I called the recruiting centre after my last post and in fact it turns out that there is a completely different office that deals strictly with Overseas applicants. The Mcpl I talked to was super friendly and helpful and got me sorted. Unfortunetly, I needed to get some documents from the Italian authorities (where Im posted) because I am "technically" a resident of Italy while here... and well, Italy being Italy, it took for bloody ever to get a silly little peice of paper and by then my trades had closed. C'est la vie!

Anyway, just thought I'd post that up in case others need that info and are searching for it.

Regards,
J


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## RCDtpr (21 Sep 2010)

Keep in mind there is no guarantee you'll end up in pet.


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## JB 11 11 (24 Sep 2010)

I realize. It's a gamble, but its one I'm willing to lose if it means I get the career I want out of it. I'm not too worried about that at this point... If I get Engineers, then it's Out west (Edmonton?) or Pet most likely....as for sig Op, I'd be training in Kingston for at least a year or there abouts (feel free to correct me on that by the way) so close enough to Ottawa for us. After that, ???? Skies the limit I guess.


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## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

Hi.

I'm in a bit of a predicament. I'm attending university in a foreign country and permanently reside here (Outside of North America) but would like to enrol into the ROTP. I'm currently doing Criminology studies and have completed first year. as of this month. I will start to apply for Canadian universities this year for September 2013 intake as a transfer student. I have dual citizenship of Canada and the country I am living in right now. 

I have lodged my application and put down Military Police Officer. Is this position currently accepting applications? How will the processing of my application work as I'm overseas? How long does processing take roughly and am I going to be between a rock and a hard spot if I'm only able to provide my academic transcript in January? 

I'm not going to be attending RMC, they do not offer my major.


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## jwtg (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> I'm not going to be attending RMC, they do not offer my major.


Many of us thought that.  Even those of us that were in the process of completing degrees elsewhere.  I can't speak at all to how the processing of an overseas applicant will go, but I can say that you had best be prepared to receive an offer to attend RMC, and only RMC.  The only people _guaranteed_ to not go to RMC are students in programs such as Nursing, where that degree is _required_ for their trade.  There are other acceptable degree programs for MPO, some of which are offered at RMC.

Best to be open minded.


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## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

jwtg said:
			
		

> Many of us thought that.  Even those of us that were in the process of completing degrees elsewhere.  I can't speak at all to how the processing of an overseas applicant will go, but I can say that you had best be prepared to receive an offer to attend RMC, and only RMC.  The only people _guaranteed_ to not go to RMC are students in programs such as Nursing, where that degree is _required_ for their trade.  There are other acceptable degree programs for MPO, some of which are offered at RMC.
> 
> Best to be open minded.



Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.

If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.


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## dimsum (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.
> 
> If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.



So let me get this straight:  You're in uni for Crim, want the CF to pay for your schooling to be an MPO, all to serve with the full intention to leave to become a civilian cop? 

I'm not saying that everyone has to serve 25 years, but joining the CF with the specific intention of leaving right away isn't exactly a recommended course of action.  Take it as you will.


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## brihard (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.
> 
> If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.



I remember when I thought my criminology degree would be relevant for a policing career... The police force I'm now very close to being hired into basically shrugged and said 'that's nice'. The police are looking for _an_ education, not a specific one. My crim degree has taught me very, very little about policing. I've even sat in a class where Vern White, erstwhile chief of Ottawa Police Service, bluntly told us that educations very focused on policing confer no advantage, and may even hinder us a bit as they're a bit more particular than police are looking for. Not that it's on the order of uselessness of Police Foundations or something, but it doesn't bring to the table what you think it does.

If you get into MPO and subsequently apply for a civilian police force, your previous law enforcement service will be a big factor and the particulars of your education a very small one. And if you want to get into MPO as ROTP, the needs of the service will come first. That means you may be sucking it up and going to RMC.

Alternatively, if you're wedded to criminology, go to a Canadian university that offers crim (E.g., Carleton, U Ottawa, Simon Fraser), and enter later as a direct entry officer. If you really have a thirst to do the military in the interim, try to get a spot in a reserve regiment for your last three years of school.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some* irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless* when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.
> 
> If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.





			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> I remember when I thought my criminology degree would be relevant for a policing career... The police force I'm now very close to being hired into basically* shrugged and said 'that's nice'.* The police are looking for _an_ education, not a specific one. My crim degree has taught me very, very little about policing. I've even sat in a class where Vern White, erstwhile *chief of Ottawa Police Service, bluntly told us that educations very focused on policing confer no advantage, and may even hinder us a bit *as they're a bit more particular than police are looking for.




Thought you'd enjoy this song OscarMike.  Good luck policing 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jne9t8sHpUc


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## Alex.Landry (4 Nov 2012)

The MPO program is a program that's closed if I'm not mistaken. 

There are none this year in my year (1st year OCdts) and I know the 2 in 4th year at the school right now are doing Psychology degrees.

If you're in another nation looking for subsidized education then I would look towards scholarships for overseas applications and such. 20 000$ isn't as hard to scrounge up for education as one might think.

In my opinion, applying to the ROTP program while not wanting to go to RMC is a complete waste of an application. The point of the ROTP program is to create "Officers well-educated". Note that Officers comes before Well-Educated for the simple fact that this isn't a school program for officers, but rather an officer's course that offers a degree on the side. 

If you plan on being within the Forces for a while, then I strongly suggest you apply and see if you can make it. Even if there is only one spot open, anyone can be that person.

If you don't plan on being in the military or attending RMC, then ROTP might not be for you. I'm sure any recruiter would say them same if you told them your thoughts on RMC. Just my  :2c:


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## JorgSlice (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.
> 
> If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.



I have a Police Foundations Diploma from the Justice Institute of British Columbia. 5 out of 6 services I've applied to basically looked at it and said "Oh, that's cute." Criminology is even more useless to Policing than Police Foundations. Criminology (when paired with another degree like accounting or economics) is more for people going to those Independent Investigators or Criminal Psychologists... Economic Crimes.... etc. Very little use to a Patrol Constable/Beat Cop.

Police Departments in British Columbia require you complete 1 year (30 credits) of ANY post-secondary education.
Alberta Sheriffs require a Two-year diploma in a related field.
The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary require a Degree or ... 





> ...equivalent of 15 credit hours, which should normally include six credit hours in English such as 1080, 1101, 1102, 1103 and 1110, six credit hours in Psychology such as 1000 and 1001, and three credit hours in Sociology, either 1000 or 2000.



Most, if not all other Police services in Canada require no post-secondary (however it is preferred to be competitive and to show you're not just some angry High School kid that wants a badge to throw power around). However, that is only very little to being considered a Recruit Constable (even with the Military Police). Life Experience plays a big part. If your resume/CV only has schooling and one or two jobs... they'll tell you you need more Life Experience. Work more, volunteer with your local Crime Prevention Society, become an Auxiliary Constable etc. Military experience... many police officers were once members of either the CF or British Army etc. or they a members of the Primary Reserve; that will get you bonus points as well. The average age of a Police recruit is 26.

Anyway, I'm starting to go off the rails a bit.

To summarize: Only take Criminology if it is something you're interested in, don't do it just because you want to become a Cop or MP/MPO. A degree in Economics, Accounting or Forensics... hell actually anything... as stated by Alex.Landry will do you just fine.


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## mariomike (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Military experience... many police officers were once members of either the CF or British Army etc. or they a members of the Primary Reserve; that will get you bonus points as well.



Regarding bonus points.

Toronto: "Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate."

Hamilton: "Military service is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage."


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## JorgSlice (4 Nov 2012)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Regarding bonus points.
> 
> Toronto: "Although we appreciate your service in the military, all current and past members of any military service will proceed through the Constable Selection System like any other candidate."
> 
> Hamilton: "Military service is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage."



I wasn't using bonus points in a literal sense.

While they may state that is provides no advantage or disadvantage... we all know it still happens. Be honest for a moment, who'd you rather hire? Someone with a High School Diploma, 15 college credits, worked at a Gas Station and volunteer at the Human Society... or someone with military service, knows what it is to be in truly stressful situations, and is disciplined?


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## jwtg (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> Hmm. Damn. I'm hoping I don't end up receiving an offer for RMC and I'm crossing my fingers that my foreign academic transcript when assessed to Canadian equivalences doesn't allow me to go into RMC even though I'm making top grades here. I'd prefer to graduate with a Criminology degree, rather then some irrelevant one from RMC which will be meaningless when pursing civilian law enforcement employment even as a lateral transfer applicant.
> 
> If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will most likely pass it up to complete my degree here then go direct entry.


When they began accepting MP's as lateral applicants into the RCMP, it applied only to NCMs.  MPOs were not considered for lateral application because their job is nothing like civilian policing.  The recruiter I spoke to said that in his experience, even the NCM MPs find the adjustment to civi policing to be a steep learning curve.  They're very different jobs; however, unless things have changed, NCM MPs are still able to apply to the RCMP as lateral applicants, and MPOs are not.  

I can't speak to other police service policies because I never looked into them.

Also, as many others have posted here, no degree is 'irrelevant' when pursuing policing because for many of the police services out there, having a degree is what will earn you points; not necessarily having a criminology degree. 

On a personal note, if you want scholarships, then get scholarships.  The ROTP is an officer production program the CF offers in order to produce officers; if you don't want to be a CF officer, then feel free to not rob that opportunity from somebody who might want it.  Instead, just go be a police officer.

That's enough from me- I'm going to go back to studying and writing papers for that 'irrelevant' degree that I'm pursuing at RMC.


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## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> To summarize: Only take Criminology if it is something you're interested in, don't do it just because you want to become a Cop or MP/MPO. A degree in Economics, Accounting or Forensics... hell actually anything... as stated by Alex.Landry will do you just fine.



My apologises I did not want to over-share, hence one of the reasons why I haven't mentioned which foreign country or anything more specific. To give you a greater insight, I'm doing Criminology, Criminal Justice and Psychology. I have picked more specific policing orientated units, rather than redundant superficial units. I can frankly say that I'm not studying for the sake of gaining employment, I have a significant interest in these fields and am actually planning to go up to PhD level.  Prior to switching my majors, I was studying Politics which was horrible... my grades were slipping, I was unmotivated and then when I switched.... a whole new me. 

I cannot see myself enjoying the disciplines offered at RMC other than perhaps military psychology, but from what I have been advised in-general it vastly differs from the psychology I am undertaking right now.

Like I have mentioned I am doing quite excellent in university. Unfortunately, I did not complete high school, as in I dropped out, so I'm not entirely sure if this will hinder me but I suspect it shouldn't upon graduation with a postsecondary degree. 



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> I remember when I thought my criminology degree would be relevant for a policing career... The police force I'm now very close to being hired into basically shrugged and said 'that's nice'. The police are looking for _an_ education, not a specific one. My crim degree has taught me very, very little about policing. I've even sat in a class where Vern White, erstwhile chief of Ottawa Police Service, bluntly told us that educations very focused on policing confer no advantage, and may even hinder us a bit as they're a bit more particular than police are looking for. Not that it's on the order of uselessness of Police Foundations or something, but it doesn't bring to the table what you think it does.
> 
> If you get into MPO and subsequently apply for a civilian police force, your previous law enforcement service will be a big factor and the particulars of your education a very small one. And if you want to get into MPO as ROTP, the needs of the service will come first. That means you may be sucking it up and going to RMC.
> 
> Alternatively, if you're wedded to criminology, go to a Canadian university that offers crim (E.g., Carleton, U Ottawa, Simon Fraser), and enter later as a direct entry officer. If you really have a thirst to do the military in the interim, try to get a spot in a reserve regiment for your last three years of school.



It is unlikely that I will transfer to a frontline policing role in a municipal police force. While I am keeping my options open, I would most likely lateral transfer to one of the federal agencies overseas, as a federal agent, and they prefer relevant related degrees. "Military Leadership" is not a relevant degree to them and I have already approached said agencies to enquire. Yes, they count your postsecondary education on top of your previous law enforcement experience. I'm not entirely sure how the Criminology stream works over in Canada, as I have not attended a Canadian university yet, but the stream here is extremely relevant and is geared towards those who are entering the police force. In fact most of our lecturers taught at the police academy and such forth.



			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> So let me get this straight:  You're in uni for Crim, want the CF to pay for your schooling to be an MPO, all to serve with the full intention to leave to become a civilian cop?
> 
> I'm not saying that everyone has to serve 25 years, but joining the CF with the specific intention of leaving right away isn't exactly a recommended course of action.  Take it as you will.



Correct. To be perfectly upfront, your opinion on my plans for the future does not concern me nor will I factor it into my decision. This may come off as arrogant but I have spoken to other NCMs and officers who tell me there is no reason one shouldn't join just because they have the intention of only serving the minimum. The military is a valued addition to a curriculum vitae and also, arguably, builds better citizens in the forms of discipline and a deontological approach to life.

Besides, no offense, but the military is funded, by you know tax payers, ironically and last time I checked I pay taxes and contribute to the economy in both countries so why should I feel bad about wanting the Canadian Forces to pay for my education in return for service to boost their ranks? They need to get officers somehow. The arrogant attitude about how the military shouldn't fund people who are just going to leave after minimum service is more than pathetic.... seeing as the military serves at the privilege of the tax payers, where if you aren't funded by tax payers you are now out of a job because there's no defense budget to pay your salary or anything else for that matter. Not to mention, the military offers the program to boost their ranks and if they had a problem with people leaving after the minimum service requirements they would remove the program if they saw it as non-beneficial and because the program still exists it presents the notion that it is benefit to the Canadian Forces.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> If I end up only getting into RMC or be forced into it, then I will ........





Now there is a novel thought; great big burly men in trenchcoats, dark glasses and fedoras, knocking at your door and escorting you to a blacked out windowed Suburban and whisking you off to RMC.  Who would have thought that we did such things in Canada, eh?


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now there is a novel thought; great big burly men in trenchcoats, dark glasses and fedoras, knocking at your door and escorting you to a blacked out windowed Suburban and whisking you off to RMC.  Who would have thought that we did such things in Canada, eh?



Love that sardonic humour .

On the contrary, I was more specifically talking about being forced to only enter the pathway, should I want to, in the RMC route instead of the preferred civi uni route.


----------



## jwtg (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> . . .
> Correct. To be perfectly upfront, your opinion on my plans for the future does not concern me nor will I factor it into my decision. This may come off as *arrogant* but I have spoken to other NCMs and officers who tell me there is no reason one shouldn't join just because they have the intention of only serving the minimum. The military is a valued addition to a curriculum vitae and also, arguably, builds better citizens in the forms of discipline and a deontological approach to life.
> 
> Besides, no offense, but the military is funded, *by you know tax payers*, ironically and last time I checked I pay taxes and contribute to the economy in both countries so why should I feel bad about wanting the Canadian Forces to pay for my education in return for service to boost their ranks? They need to get officers somehow. The stuck-up attitude about how the military shouldn't fund people who are just going to leave after minimum service is more than *pathetic*.... seeing as you serve at the privilege of the tax payers, where if you aren't funded by tax payers you are now out of a job because there's no budget to pay your salary or anything else for that matter. Not to mention, the military offers the program to boost their ranks and if they had a problem with people leaving after the minimum service requirements they would remove the program if they saw it as non-beneficial and because the program still exists it presents the notion that it is benefit to the Canadian Forces.


Arrogant? Check.
Condescending? Check.
Sense of entitlement? Check.
I believe we know where our funding comes from, but thanks for the education.    
You say that, as a taxpayer, you have no problem with people serving the minimum and getting out.  Well, you're entitled to your opinion (if not much else).  I, as a taxpayer,  hope you never wear a uniform because I would prefer my that dollar go a long way.


----------



## jwtg (4 Nov 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Alternatively, if you're wedded to criminology, go to a Canadian university that offers crim (E.g., Carleton, U Ottawa, Simon Fraser), and enter later as a direct entry officer. If you really have a thirst to do the military in the interim, try to get a spot in a reserve regiment for your last three years of school.



As much as I'm inclined to be unhelpful, I think highlighting this line from Brihard's post is beneficial.

The way I understand it, you want to come to Canada and finish your degree.  If that's the case, the reserves gets you some of the experience you're looking for and spares you ever having to serve in the reg force, thus paving the way for you to serve in the civilian police force more quickly.  There are, in fact, some reserve MP organizations, but I don't know what they require in terms of qualifications for applicants.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

jwtg said:
			
		

> Arrogant? Check.
> Condescending? Check.
> Sense of entitlement? Check.
> I believe we know where our funding comes from, but thanks for the education.
> You say that, as a taxpayer, you have no problem with people serving the minimum and getting out.  Well, you're entitled to your opinion (if not much else).  I, As a taxpayer,  hope you never wear a uniform because I prefer my dollar go a long way.



I have lurked on these forums for many years. I am perfectly aware of the attitudes and behaviour of certain posters who like to talk down to potential candidates in a vicious and unnecessary manner which further alienates the military from the eyes of the general public, where it turns them off of military service. Essentially this is a forum for potential candidates to ask questions, not be bagged out. What is the purpose of having such a forum if all you're going to do is bag someone out while being unhelpful?  Not exactly painting the best of picture. I frankly will not have someone insult my knowledge or aspirations simply because they disagree. That's fine, disagree, but it's not going to persuade me away from doing something.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> Love that sardonic humour .
> 
> On the contrary, I was more specifically talking about being forced to only enter the pathway, should I want to, in the RMC route instead of the preferred civi uni route.



ROTP is what we are all talking about.  You either want to serve your Country or not.  The Country has no obligations to serve you.  Serving in the CF is not a Right.  Don't expect any sympathy here if you want to abuse the system for your own personal desires.   The majority of CF members of are not of that ilk.

If you are accepted for ROTP, you will go where they tell you.  The same as should you be accepted at any other "Institution of Higher Learning"; you go to their institution, not someone else's.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

> The way I understand it, you want to come to Canada and finish your degree.



This is true. Except I am not jumping for joy at the thought of the massive debt (repayments after 6 months) should I return to finish the degree off in Canada. In my forgein country, the student loan is interest-free and repayments are salary deductions after your salary reaches a significantly high threshold. 



> If that's the case, the reserves gets you some of the experience you're looking for and spares you ever having to serve in the reg force, thus paving the way for you to serve in the civilian police force more quickly.  There are, in fact, some reserve MP organizations, but I don't know what they require in terms of qualifications for applicants.



Ultimately I would like to serve in the reg force, as either NCM or as an officer, but yeah reserves doesn't sound too bad.


----------



## jwtg (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> I have lurked on these forums for many years. I am perfectly aware of the attitudes and behaviour of certain posters who like to talk down to potential candidates in a vicious and unnecessary manner which further alienates the military from the eyes of the general public, where it turns them off of military service. Essentially this is a forum for potential candidates to ask questions, not be bagged out. What is the purpose of having such a forum if all you're going to do is bag someone out while being unhelpful?


I was the first person to alert you to the fact that an RMC-only route may be the only offer you ever receive.  I also echoed, and provided additional reasons for, Brihard's idea about the reserves, which really isn't a bad idea.  They also have programs to partially subsidize university education.  Something worth looking into for you, since you've stated you're basically looking for subsidized education.  I think I've been somewhat helpful.



> Not exactly painting the best of picture. I frankly will not have someone insult my knowledge or aspirations simply because they disagree. That's fine, disagree, but it's not going to persuade me away from doing something.


But it's okay for you to come on here and insult our knowledge by 'educating' us on the fact that we're pathetic and we don't even know where our funding comes from?  Take a long look in the mirror before you start casting stones.  You'll notice I also never insulted your intelligence.  I identified what I felt were undesirable personality traits that you displayed in your post.

If anything, I insulted your character.  
Please refrain from insulting my intelligence by ignoring the content of my posts and responding like a child who has had their feelings hurt.


EDIT to add: This post went up just before I saw the OP's most recent reply which responded to the content of my previous post, so some credit is due there.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

jwtg said:
			
		

> I was the first person to alert you to the fact that an RMC-only route may be the only offer you ever receive.  I also echoed, and provided additional reasons for, Brihard's idea about the reserves, which really isn't a bad idea.  They also have programs to partially subsidize university education.  Something worth looking into for you, since you've stated you're basically looking for subsidized education.  I think I've been somewhat helpful.
> But it's okay for you to come on here and insult our knowledge by 'educating' us on the fact that we're pathetic and we don't even know where our funding comes from?  Take a long look in the mirror before you start casting stones.  You'll notice I also never insulted your intelligence.  I identified what I felt were undesirable personality traits that you displayed in your post.
> 
> If anything, I insulted your character.
> Please refrain from insulting my intelligence by ignoring the content of my posts and responding like a child who has had their feelings hurt.



You are assuming that I was referring to you. The saying is "assumptions make an *** out of you and me". Rather as I recognise you were helpful the defensive content of my responses were directed towards Dimsum and Dimsum alone. Yes, I do think it's acceptable to refute Dimsum and his attitude/opinion which echoes many other posters who, in many people's opinions, shouldn't be serving in the military to begin with because they posses undesirable traits and characteristics. 

Thank you for helping.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ROTP is what we are all talking about.
> 
> If you are accepted for ROTP, you will go where they tell you.  The same as should you be accepted at any other "Institution of Higher Learning"; you go to their institution, not someone else's.



That goes without saying, yeah. Still have a discretion to either accept the offer or not accept the offer which I would invoke if I were to only receive RMC.


----------



## Loachman (4 Nov 2012)

For anybody who thinks that it is wrong for somebody to serve the minimum time and then leave, it is not. Our system is designed that way. If the intent was to keep people in longer, the obligatory service period would be lengthened to that longer period. A commitment to the current minimum is sufficient. Somebody may join with the intent to serve until CRA and then decide otherwise, or join with the intent to leave upon reaching the end of his/her obligatory service and decide to stay much longer.

That said, the feeling that people are somehow abusing the system by leaving at the end of the minimum time is not uncommon.


----------



## JorgSlice (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> My apologises I did not want to over-share, hence one of the reasons why I haven't mentioned which foreign country or anything more specific. To give you a greater insight, I'm doing Criminology, Criminal Justice and Psychology. I have picked more specific policing orientated units, rather than redundant superficial units. I can frankly say that I'm not studying for the sake of gaining employment, I have a significant interest in these fields and am actually planning to go up to PhD level.  Prior to switching my majors, I was studying Politics which was horrible... my grades were slipping, I was unmotivated and then when I switched.... a whole new me.



What's wrong with sharing the country you're from? Criminology is the study of why crimes are committed and why people become criminals (in case you didn't know already); it has very little application to a Police Organization. It is only good paired with but not limited to: Forensic or Accounting. Criminologists do things study cases of Criminal Insanity and then "advise" police organizations on how they can better equip their members to handle calls when attending known mental health subjects or to assist officers in detecting symptoms of mental issues in a subject. They study Serious Incident Responses, like when an officer ends up needing to shoot an aggressive subject and then advise police organizations or politicians on their findings which then results in changing the Rules of Engagement, Use of Force Continuum and junk like that. In my *opinion*, very few Criminology graduates/Criminologists actually work for a Police Service.. Criminal Justice, unless it is specifically Justice Studies of Policing... then a Degree in Criminal Justice will only do you any good if you're going to law school to become a Crown Prosecutor or a Defense Lawyer (Criminal Lawyer). 

You may think they're specific, you may think that they'll help you in policing, but... everyone starts out at the bottom in a Police Organization in Canada. You start off as a Beat/Front Line officer equivalent to an NCM MP and nothing can prepare you for the streets; I've learned that the hard way here at the Alberta Solicitor General and Public Security Staff College, I'm on training as an Alberta Sheriff, while I was required to have the Police Foundations Diploma to meet the minimum requirements... I'm regretting spending money on it because it has so far had ZERO use to me even at the "Academy" Well, I loved the program and was worth the money, but as stated: zero applicable use so far, as most of it is taught at Police Academies/Staff Colleges). MPO's are administrators. I *think* I remember hearing that MPOs do very little real police work, even investigations. 

Psychology is okay, depending on what type of psychology you wish to specialize in, it will become useful if you wish to become an Investigator/Detective or a Negotiator.



> I cannot see myself enjoying the disciplines offered at RMC other than perhaps military psychology, but from what I have been advised in-general it vastly differs from the psychology I am undertaking right now.
> 
> Like I have mentioned I am doing quite excellent in university. Unfortunately, I did not complete high school, as in I dropped out, so I'm not entirely sure if this will hinder me but I suspect it shouldn't upon graduation with a postsecondary degree.
> 
> It is unlikely that I will transfer to a frontline policing role in a municipal police force. While I am keeping my options open, I would most likely lateral transfer to one of the federal agencies overseas, as a federal agent, and they prefer relevant related degrees. "Military Leadership" is not a relevant degree to them and I have already approached said agencies to enquire. Yes, they count your postsecondary education on top of your previous law enforcement experience. I'm not entirely sure how the Criminology stream works over in Canada, as I have not attended a Canadian university yet, but the stream here is extremely relevant and is geared towards those who are entering the police force. In fact most of our lecturers taught at the police academy and such forth.



Like I said, unless they have openings for Civilian positions as investigators, forensic technicians.... You'll start out at the bottom of the ladder as a Front Line Officer/Beat Cop and after 3/4 years you'll be given the opportunity to move into specialized units like Homicide, Major Crimes, Financial Crimes, Sex Crimes, Domestic Unit etc.



> Correct. To be perfectly upfront, your opinion on my plans for the future does not concern me nor will I factor it into my decision. This may come off as arrogant but I have spoken to other NCMs and officers who tell me there is no reason one shouldn't join just because they have the intention of only serving the minimum. The military is a valued addition to a curriculum vitae and also, arguably, builds better citizens in the forms of discipline and a deontological approach to life.
> 
> Besides, no offense, but the military is funded, by you know tax payers, ironically and last time I checked I pay taxes and contribute to the economy in both countries so why should I feel bad about wanting the Canadian Forces to pay for my education in return for service to boost their ranks? They need to get officers somehow. The arrogant attitude about how the military shouldn't fund people who are just going to leave after minimum service is more than pathetic.... seeing as the military serves at the privilege of the tax payers, where if you aren't funded by tax payers you are now out of a job because there's no defense budget to pay your salary or anything else for that matter. Not to mention, the military offers the program to boost their ranks and if they had a problem with people leaving after the minimum service requirements they would remove the program if they saw it as non-beneficial and because the program still exists it presents the notion that it is benefit to the Canadian Forces.



Fair enough, but for most of the members here that have been to corners and have done and seen terrible things during their dedication to Canada, it's insulting that all that is in your mind is to take advantage of your dual-citizenship... expect to get subsidized education, fulfill your Obligatory Service only to flee back to your Overseas lair and become a police officer with disillusioned thoughts of how you're going to get there.


----------



## brihard (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Criminology is even more useless to Policing than Police Foundations.



Not what Chief White told us to our faces. His statistics were 10% of police foundations grades get into police forces within a year of graduation; 30% ever (and that includes those who get subsequent additional education). Criminology, conversely, fulfills the 'any sort of degree' requirement, while still being related enough to be of some benefit to a number of other criminal justice professions. Corrections, CBSA,

Police foundations, if you don't get hired as a cop, is almost completely wasted and offers few other options beyond allowing you to enter a mall security job and fit in. If you DO get hired as a cop, Everything of relevance that you learned will be retaught... Once you've hung around Blueline a bit longer though you'll se ethe attitude that cops have toward PF programs. But you of course have taken the additional step of working towards degree completion, which should 'top you up', so it oughtn't hurt you.



			
				OscarMike said:
			
		

> It is unlikely that I will transfer to a frontline policing role in a municipal police force. While I am keeping my options open, I would most likely lateral transfer to one of the federal agencies overseas, as a federal agent, and they prefer relevant related degrees. "Military Leadership" is not a relevant degree to them and I have already approached said agencies to enquire. Yes, they count your postsecondary education on top of your previous law enforcement experience. I'm not entirely sure how the Criminology stream works over in Canada, as I have not attended a Canadian university yet, but the stream here is extremely relevant and is geared towards those who are entering the police force. In fact most of our lecturers taught at the police academy and such forth.



So... You want to get the Canadian taxpayer to cover the cost of your education so that you can serve the minimal necessary time in the military as an MP Office.r In that role you won't do much actual policing, you'll mostly be an administrator who won't even be in long enough to get particularly good at much. You somehow think that your university education - which doesn't actually teach _how to do_ much at all, plus some time behind a desk as a junior MPO that can't even lateral you into many municipal forces, will somehow get you a 'federal agent' job back in Britain?

Yeah... Don't hold your breath. MPO is a rather limited trade, and most applicants aren't nearly so mercenary in their intentions. You would be wasting an ROTP spot that could go to someone more deserving who intends to stick around and serve our country for more than the bare minimum they need to not get billed for it.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> For anybody who thinks that it is wrong for somebody to serve the minimum time and then leave, it is not. Our system is designed that way. If the intent was to keep people in longer, the obligatory service period would be lengthened to that longer period. A commitment to the current minimum is sufficient. Somebody may join with the intent to serve until CRA and then decide otherwise, or join with the intent to leave upon reaching the end of his/her obligatory service and decide to stay much longer.
> 
> That said, the feeling that people are somehow abusing the system by leaving at the end of the minimum time is not uncommon.



I know over here the military, even has on their website that subsequent periods of service are up to the military to decide along with suitability for future service in the military. I assume it is the same with the Canadian Forces nonetheless?

Also been looking through some threads, RMC is apparently quite competitive to get into... would that mean if you fail to get into RMC but pass everything else in ROTP that you just aren't accepted into the training program instead of being offered civi uni sponsorship?


----------



## brihard (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> Also been looking through some threads, RMC is apparently quite competitive to get into... would that mean if you fail to get into RMC but pass everything else in ROTP that you just aren't accepted into the training program instead of being offered civi uni sponsorship?



That can happen, absolutely. Or you may be offered one of your alternative trade choices if you've specified any.

If your grades are as you claim, you are probably more likely to not be accepted for MPO ROTP than to not be accepted for RMC. There are very few positions for MPO, and it is not merited on anything close to a strictly academic basis.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> So... You want to get the Canadian taxpayer to cover the cost of your education so that you can serve the minimal necessary time in the military as an MP Officer



We have previously established that, yes. 



> In that role you won't do much actual policing, you'll mostly be an administrator who won't even be in long enough to get particularly good at much. You somehow think that your university education - which doesn't actually teach _how to do_ much at all, plus some time behind a desk as a junior MPO that can't even lateral you into many municipal forces, will somehow get you a 'federal agent' job back in Britain?



ROTP would, in my opinion based upon the information I have from Canadian universities on international transfer credits, most likely take up 4 year.s That means 8 years of subsequent service afterwards. I'm not "across the pond" nor am I in Britain. 




> Yeah... Don't hold your breath. MPO is a rather limited trade, and most applicants aren't nearly so mercenary in their intentions. You would be wasting an ROTP spot that could go to someone more deserving who intends to stick around and serve our country for more than the bare minimum they need to not get billed for it.



That is your opinion.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> If your grades are as you claim, you are probably more likely to not be accepted for MPO ROTP than to not be accepted for RMC. There are very few positions for MPO, and it is not merited on anything close to a strictly academic basis.



Oh that I understand. I have relevant employment history, experiences and certifications that should reinforce my academics.


----------



## brihard (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> We have previously established that, yes.



At least you're up front about what you are.



			
				OscarMike said:
			
		

> ROTP would, in my opinion based upon the information I have from Canadian universities on international transfer credits, most likely take up 4 year.s That means 8 years of subsequent service afterwards. I'm not "across the pond" nor am I in Britain.



Your research has not served you well, as your calculations are incorrect. Anyway, where you are specifically really doesn't matter a great deal.



			
				OscarMike said:
			
		

> That is your opinion.



My statement about MPO being very limited for ROTP entry is not an 'opinion'. I am privy to the numbers that MPO takes from the various entry plans. It is not many under any of them. The rest of it - my opinion - is rather qualified professional one. I as an NCO would not wish that I or my troops be subjected to your command based on what you've told us thus far about your ethic of service to Canada and your intend to milk what you can and then bugger off- you can determine what that opinion is worth, if anything. And I say that coolly and objectively.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> What's wrong with sharing the country you're from? Criminology is the study of why crimes are committed and why people become criminals (in case you didn't know already); it has very little application to a Police Organization. It is only good paired with but not limited to: Forensic or Accounting. Criminologists do things study cases of Criminal Insanity and then "advise" police organizations on how they can better equip their members to handle calls when attending known mental health subjects or to assist officers in detecting symptoms of mental issues in a subject. They study Serious Incident Responses, like when an officer ends up needing to shoot an aggressive subject and then advise police organizations or politicians on their findings which then results in changing the Rules of Engagement, Use of Force Continuum and junk like that. In my *opinion*, very few Criminology graduates/Criminologists actually work for a Police Service.. Criminal Justice, unless it is specifically Justice Studies of Policing... then a Degree in Criminal Justice will only do you any good if you're going to law school to become a Crown Prosecutor or a Defense Lawyer (Criminal Lawyer).



Both Criminology and Criminal Justice here are designed and orientated towards policing. Only the first year subjects are "why crimes are committed and why people become criminology". The rest focuses on the application of the two into the real world such as "tactical crime analysis", "criminal law" and "Investigation Methods & Techniques" etc. in both introductory and advanced. 

I have not known generic criminologists to study cases of criminal insanity nor is that even apart of my major. Rather forensic psychologists and forensic  criminologists do what you have described.


----------



## JorgSlice (4 Nov 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Not what Chief White told us to our faces. His statistics were 10% of police foundations grades get into police forces within a year of graduation; 30% ever (and that includes those who get subsequent additional education). Criminology, conversely, fulfills the 'any sort of degree' requirement, while still being related enough to be of some benefit to a number of other criminal justice professions. Corrections, CBSA,
> 
> Police foundations, if you don't get hired as a cop, is almost completely wasted and offers few other options beyond allowing you to enter a mall security job and fit in. If you DO get hired as a cop, Everything of relevance that you learned will be retaught... Once you've hung around Blueline a bit longer though you'll se ethe attitude that cops have toward PF programs. But you of course have taken the additional step of working towards degree completion, which should 'top you up', so it oughtn't hurt you.



The only reason I did a PF was because it was more affordable for me at the time. 

I was given some very great advice from my Training Officer during my Work Placement Module with Delta Police, to take another Diploma or Certificate Program - I've selected an Accounting Diploma and a Forensic Studies certificate that is a online self-paced delivery (which I'm starting in September after I complete DP1 and DP2 over the summer). While I don't particularly fancy working in Financial Crimes if I were in a standard Police Service, it gives me breadth. I'm a Front Line/Beat Type person so I'll be happy with anything. My new employer has been very supportive and empowering of everything. 

P.S. I read through Blueline a couple years ago... I refuse to register there.  



			
				OscarMike said:
			
		

> We have previously established that, yes.
> 
> ROTP would, in my opinion based upon the information I have from Canadian universities on international transfer credits, most likely take up 4 year.s That means 8 years of subsequent service afterwards. I'm not "across the pond" nor am I in Britain.
> 
> ...



You just stated you're permanently residing and studying overseas, outside of North America. Which either means "Across the Pond" meaning Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia... or even South America. 

So what is it? Are you overseas, with dual citizenship, or are you just making up stories that now have obvious holes?


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> At least you're up front about what you are.
> 
> Your research has not served you well, as your calculations are incorrect. Anyway, where you are specifically really doesn't matter a great deal.
> 
> My statement about MPO being very limited for ROTP entry is not an 'opinion'. I am privy to the numbers that MPO takes from the various entry plans. It is not many under any of them. The rest of it - my opinion - is rather qualified professional one. I as an NCO would not wish that I or my troops be subjected to your command based on what you've told us thus far about your ethic of service to Canada and your intend to milk what you can and then bugger off- you can determine what that opinion is worth, if anything. And I say that coolly and objectively.



Funny enough, in my country they cannot enlist or retain enough MPs (Officers or NCMs) where they are so desperate that they've only put a year as minimum service requirement. Fancy that, spend $10,000 training someone for them to be eligible to resign a year later. Before you question why I'm not going MPs over here, they're not exactly police officers nor conduct policing... they're concluded as being a bit of a joke. Unarmed, powerless and all. Also cannot lateral transfer.

From my research, an undergraduate degree is 4 years. For every month of sponsorship, you need to give two back. 4 x 2 is 8, yes?


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> You just stated you're permanently residing and studying overseas, outside of North America. Which either means "Across the Pond" meaning Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia... or even South America.
> 
> So what is it? Are you overseas, with dual citizenship, or are you just making up stories that now have obvious holes?



Across the pond is associated with the Atlantic Ocean and the United Kingdom. Feel free to make a "Today I learned" post about it on Reddit. 
http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/across+the+pond.html

It does not include Europe, Asia, South America, Oceania or anywhere else.


----------



## JorgSlice (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> Across the pond is associated with the Atlantic Ocean and the United Kingdom. Feel free to make a "Today I learned" post about it on Reddit.
> http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/across+the+pond.html



There's more than one "pond" in the world. I don't need your condescension. You understood what I meant.



> Usage notes
> The phrase usually implies the North Atlantic Ocean between North America and *Europe*, and is most often used to describe travel between the United Kingdom and the United States or Canada.



Europe is many, many countries, not just UK. Because it is an "implication" it does not limit the phrase to just USA/Canada to UK travel and vice versa, although it is the common usage. I've heard people use it when talking about travelling to Asia and Australia as well.

Why not just say where you're from? You obviously have a lot to hide.



			
				OscarMike said:
			
		

> Both Criminology and Criminal Justice here are designed and orientated towards policing. Only the first year subjects are "why crimes are committed and why people become criminology". The rest focuses on the application of the two into the real world such as "tactical crime analysis", "criminal law" and "Investigation Methods & Techniques" etc. in both introductory and advanced.
> 
> I have not known generic criminologists to study cases of criminal insanity nor is that even apart of my major. Rather forensic psychologists and forensic  criminologists do what you have described.



Well they do that as well. Criminologists are "critics" and "advisers" for the most part. Forensic Psychologists and Forensic Criminologist play a whole other role, but still in similar fashion. They often give statements in Court, either for or against Crown Prosecutors or Defense Lawyers; but majority work for independent investigation organizations in Canada, not police services. You said you do not understand how things work in Canada (despite having dual-citizenship), and so I am giving you what I've observed, that is all.

My Police Foundations class had a Criminology grad come in to do a presentation on Criminology. She works for the RCMP Police Complaints Commission and studies the types of complaints, number of complaints, how those people are related to police incidences etc. etc. and then makes reports to the RCMP about how they can improve their Policing Methods. She's also been pushing her reports to politicians to out Officers, making an attempt to somehow legislate change on how Police operate in Canada. I won't go into my opinion on her, but many of us asked her how just a plain Criminology degree would help a Police Officer's career... She couldn't provide an answer herself except to say "Well, you can also major in Economics and go into White Collar crimes for example." 

I like Criminology as well, and love studying it... but not enough to spend money on it if it's not going to do me any real assistance anywhere... but that's just my opinion. 

Edit: Corrected some spelling and grammar... I'm enjoying this Shiraz too much


----------



## jwtg (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> Funny enough, in my country they cannot enlist or retain enough MPs (Officers or NCMs) where they are so desperate that they've only put a year as minimum service requirement. Fancy that, spend $10,000 training someone for them to be eligible to resign a year later. Before you question why I'm not going MPs over here, they're not exactly police officers nor conduct policing... they're concluded as being a bit of a joke. Unarmed, powerless and all. Also cannot lateral transfer.
> 
> From my research, an undergraduate degree is 4 years. For every month of sponsorship, you need to give two back. 4 x 2 is 8, yes?


MPs, to my knowledge, are badged & recognized peace officers under the criminal code, and they do 'policing' to the extent that it is required in the CF community, as well as police work and far more in operational zones.  MPOs, to my knowledge, are NOT badged peace officers.  They are not as readily eligible for lateral transfer as their NCM counterparts.

Also, your math is wrong.  It's 2 months per month of subsidized education; your summer training is not subsidized education, it is military training.  Obligatory service typically ends up being approximately 5 years, although it can very from trade to trade based on training periods (ie. pilot).

Also, if you're currently studying at a university, why would it take you a whole 4 years for an undergrad here?  I don't know much about international education recognition, but, unless you have done very little studying, I would imagine you'd be able to knock a bit of time off your degree here, no?  Hard to say because of how vague you're being about your situation, but that's fine by me.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Why not just say where you're from? You obviously have a lot to hide.



Protecting my privacy and the neutrality of my Canadian Forces application doesn't constitute to hiding anything.



> Well they do that as well. Criminologists are "critics" and "advisers" for the most part. Forensic Psychologists and Forensic Criminologist play a whole other role, but still in similar fashion.



The criminologists I have found are mainly crime analysts or researchers. More specialist crime analysts have secondary education in the fields of accounting, forensics, psychology or another field. Criminology is important when planning out policing strategies, such as hotspot policing, or transitioning it into play as information-lead policing which is applicable to front-line policing.


----------



## brihard (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> The only reason I did a PF was because it was more affordable for me at the time.
> 
> I was given some very great advice from my Training Officer during my Work Placement Module with Delta Police, to take another Diploma or Certificate Program - I've selected an Accounting Diploma and a Forensic Studies certificate that is a online self-paced delivery (which I'm starting in September after I complete DP1 and DP2 over the summer). While I don't particularly fancy working in Financial Crimes if I were in a standard Police Service, it gives me breadth. I'm a Front Line/Beat Type person so I'll be happy with anything. My new employer has been very supportive and empowering of everything.



The Forensic Studies certificate- is that through JIBC? I'm enough of the academic type that even while I work towards things panning out (likely pretty soon) I've always got an ear to the ground for 'value added'.



			
				OscarMike said:
			
		

> From my research, an undergraduate degree is 4 years. For every month of sponsorship, you need to give two back. 4 x 2 is 8, yes?



Your research is incorrect.



			
				OscarMike said:
			
		

> in my country



Yeah... Enough said, right there. Almost literally an instance of your 'true colours' showing through. Please don't waste any of the time of the military of _my_ country. We need dedicated Canadians, not citizens of convenience who want to milk our system for a free education.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

jwtg said:
			
		

> MPs, to my knowledge, are badged & recognized peace officers under the criminal code, and they do 'policing' to the extent that it is required in the CF community, as well as police work and far more in operational zones.  MPOs, to my knowledge, are NOT badged peace officers.  They are not as readily eligible for lateral transfer as their NCM counterparts.



I wasn't referring to Canada in my quote, but yes you are correct under the Criminal Code, military police are peace officers. Contrary to here. 



> Also, your math is wrong.  It's 2 months per month of subsidized education; your summer training is not subsidized education, it is military training.  Obligatory service typically ends up being approximately 5 years, although it can very from trade to trade based on training periods (ie. pilot).



Fair enough. I was using the wrong calculations, not that my math is wrong. I'd be willing to do 8 years. 



> Also, if you're currently studying at a university, why would it take you a whole 4 years for an undergrad here?  I don't know much about international education recognition, but, unless you have done very little studying, I would imagine you'd be able to knock a bit of time off your degree here, no?  Hard to say because of how vague you're being about your situation, but that's fine by me.



Been in contact with a few universities. They told most of my units would not transfer over or be applicable. Perhaps I'm just approaching the wrong universities. They said out of something like 10 units, only 2 would count and only towards electives.


----------



## JorgSlice (4 Nov 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> The Forensic Studies certificate- is that through JIBC? I'm enough of the academic type that even while I work towards things panning out (likely pretty soon) I've always got an ear to the ground for 'value added'.



Mount Royal University, it is fairly new and sounds very intriguing in its limited capacity. There's talk of it being expanded in the future.



			
				OscarMike said:
			
		

> Protecting my privacy and the neutrality of my Canadian Forces application doesn't constitute to hiding anything.
> 
> The criminologists I have found are mainly crime analysts or researchers. More specialist crime analysts have secondary education in the fields of accounting, forensics, psychology or another field. Criminology is important when planning out policing strategies, such as hotspot policing, or transitioning it into play as information-lead policing which is applicable to front-line policing.



How do you think they came up with Policing Strategies and crime analysis and such before Criminology was a study you could attend a shiny-paper for in a University because, correct me if I'm wrong, it's a relatively new thing (new being in the last 30 years)? Police Officer's experiences and academics with _other_ fields of studies? Yeah right...  :


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

Brihard said:
			
		

> The rest of it - my opinion - is rather qualified professional one. I as an NCO would not wish that I or my troops be subjected to your command based on what you've told us thus far about your ethic of service to Canada and your intend to milk what you can and then bugger off- you can determine what that opinion is worth, if anything. And I say that coolly and objectively.



I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter. 

Yes, because wanting to leave after minimum contract of service means poor ethics and reflects poor leadership skills.  :


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Mount Royal University, it is fairly new and sounds very intriguing in its limited capacity. There's talk of it being expanded in the future.
> 
> How do you think they came up with Policing Strategies and crime analysis and such before Criminology was a study you could attend a shiny-paper for in a University because, correct me if I'm wrong, it's a relatively new thing (new being in the last 30 years)? Police Officer's experiences and academics with _other_ fields of studies? Yeah right...  :



It was criminologists, e.g. James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, who came up with policing strategies, which are used today, such as "zero-tolerance policing" ?

If you consider the mid-18th century as being "relatively new", sure.


----------



## brihard (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter.
> 
> Yes, because wanting to leave after minimum contract of service means poor ethics and reflects poor leadership skills.  :



Poor leadership, not necessarily. Wanting to simply get a free education, serve a minimal period, then leave- yes, I'll call that poor ethics, as would many.

And no, I certainly have no say. Yet I do have enough experienced that looking over this whole thread, I'm honestly not particularly worried about it.

You have a good day.


----------



## JorgSlice (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> It was criminologists, e.g. James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, who came up with policing strategies, which are used today, such as "zero-tolerance policing" ?
> 
> If you consider the mid-18th century as being "relatively new", sure.



Wilson graduated in Political Science and Kelling in Social Welfare and Philosophy... and neither of which were Police Officers. Which proves my point, they are not Criminologists in the sense that they have PhDs let alone undergrad degrees in Criminology and have never actually been able to put that to use as a Beat Cop. Criminology doesn't help you in a Domestic Violence call.

These "administrators" and "Criminologists" may have implemented things that are now modern policing guidelines or regulations, and think that what they are doing are "good ideas" and "useful" for the average beat cop... however most of it has no application to a Beat Cop and may have actually hindered Policing abilities over the years. I will admit though, faux-Criminologists like Kelling and Wilson have come up with some good ideas.



			
				OscarMike said:
			
		

> I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter.
> 
> Yes, because wanting to leave after minimum contract of service means poor ethics and reflects poor leadership skills.  :



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33510.0 - The Canadian Forces Ethos... pay particular attention to the part about Loyalty to Canada, which you've clearly displayed little to none as you just wish to take advantage and leave.

I\m done now


----------



## MusclesGlasses (4 Nov 2012)

op:


----------



## brihard (4 Nov 2012)

MusclesGlasses said:
			
		

> op:



Nah, I'm done with this clown.


----------



## OscarMike (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Wilson graduated in Political Science and Kelling in Social Welfare and Philosophy...



Both are Criminologists. Social Welfare/work encompasses Criminology. You can take Criminology under many areas including Political Science, Social Welfare, Science, etc. 

Thanks for trying though. You just cannot win when you're not even studying it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Nov 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> For anybody who thinks that it is wrong for somebody to serve the minimum time and then leave, it is not. Our system is designed that way. If the intent was to keep people in longer, the obligatory service period would be lengthened to that longer period. A commitment to the current minimum is sufficient. Somebody may join with the intent to serve until CRA and then decide otherwise, or join with the intent to leave upon reaching the end of his/her obligatory service and decide to stay much longer.
> 
> That said, the feeling that people are somehow abusing the system by leaving at the end of the minimum time is not uncommon.



Best post of the day.


----------



## jwtg (4 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> I wasn't referring to Canada in my quote, but yes you are correct under the Criminal Code, military police are peace officers. Contrary to here.


I guess my point is that I'm making a distinction between NCM MPs and commissioned MPs.  I know that the RCMP make this distinction when considering applicants.  Commissioned MPOs do not qualify for lateral.  It's worth looking into whether or not MPO would make you eligible for a lateral application with whichever service you're interested in.

The point here is that you can't generalize MPs.  MP and MPO are very different.


----------



## brihard (4 Nov 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> For anybody who thinks that it is wrong for somebody to serve the minimum time and then leave, it is not. Our system is designed that way. If the intent was to keep people in longer, the obligatory service period would be lengthened to that longer period. A commitment to the current minimum is sufficient. Somebody may join with the intent to serve until CRA and then decide otherwise, or join with the intent to leave upon reaching the end of his/her obligatory service and decide to stay much longer.
> 
> That said, the feeling that people are somehow abusing the system by leaving at the end of the minimum time is not uncommon.



In many instances I would agree. I have no problem with those who discover, on taking an honest stab at it, that it's not for them. Such is a call made in good faith on their part and I wish anyone well who gave it a real shot and only experientially found it's not for them.

But such policies are made almost actuarially. Yes, we know some people will decide to milk the system, and that others will do their 35, and that many will leave somewhat before a full career but not on obligatory service + a day. The fact that it's 'written in' to the policy as something we understand and accept isn't what I or, I think, others take issue with. My issue is with those who from the very outset have no intention of service beyond that needed to give them the most expedient ride they can get out of it. Because in those instances the *ethic* of service is lacking. It's a burden and an onus that they must bear out to get to what they really want. Maybe that just bothers me a bit.

I also understand the difference between what I hold as my own opinion, and what a broader idea of what is right or wrong may be. And I certainly don't mistake my opinion of it as 'wrong' as having any regulatory or statutory weight. I simply won't wish any good fortune on anyone looking from the outset to use ROTP as a teat to be milked dry and then walked away from as soon as they're able. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.


----------



## Loachman (4 Nov 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Fair enough, but for most of the members here that have been to corners and have done and seen terrible things during their dedication to Canada, it's insulting that all that is in your mind is to take advantage of your dual-citizenship... expect to get subsidized education, fulfill your Obligatory Service only to flee back to your Overseas lair and become a police officer with disillusioned thoughts of how you're going to get there.



Like it or not, there is nothing wrong with he wants to do.

Further to this, I noticed, during my Pilot training, that those candidates who intended to fly transport aircraft so that they could bail for an airline job as soon as they had completed the minimum obligatory service washed out to a man. I was one of many who derived some measure of pleasure from that. I ascribe their failures to poor motivation.


----------



## Shamrock (4 Nov 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> For anybody who thinks that it is wrong for somebody to serve the minimum time and then leave, it is not. Our system is designed that way. If the intent was to keep people in longer, the obligatory service period would be lengthened to that longer period. A commitment to the current minimum is sufficient. Somebody may join with the intent to serve until CRA and then decide otherwise, or join with the intent to leave upon reaching the end of his/her obligatory service and decide to stay much longer.
> 
> That said, the feeling that people are somehow abusing the system by leaving at the end of the minimum time is not uncommon.



Perhaps, another perspective may help.  I find quite a few of those who rail against minimum-service-and-release mentality are those who are still in the recruiting process.  Given the scarcity of positions and the competitiveness to get them, it seems to cheapen their own efforts.


----------



## JorgSlice (5 Nov 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Like it or not, there is nothing wrong with he wants to do.
> 
> Further to this, I noticed, during my Pilot training, that those candidates who intended to fly transport aircraft so that they could bail for an airline job as soon as they had completed the minimum obligatory service washed out to a man. I was one of many who derived some measure of pleasure from that. I ascribe their failures to poor motivation.



I see it in the same light, I just have this thing where I believe that all people are capable of great things, but yes... there's nothing I can do about it.


----------



## brihard (5 Nov 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Perhaps, another perspective may help.  I find quite a few of those who rail against minimum-service-and-release mentality are those who are still in the recruiting process.  Given the scarcity of positions and the competitiveness to get them, it seems to cheapen their own efforts.



I could see that for some, yeah. Certainly far from the case for some of us though.

Loach- you've obviously got a closer perspective on this than I do, and I respect that. The washout rates you cite are encouraging at least.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Nov 2012)

While the community here will likely look down on someone seeking the least amount of time effort dedication and service in exchange for free schooling there is nothing inherently wrong with it.

Coming across looking self-centered condescending and combative with what looks like a case of self-entitlement is bad situational awareness and one can only expect harsh responses.

Pulling the "I pay taxes" card makes you sound like a typical protester screaming 'my taxes pay your salary' followed by joyous cries of 'baby killer'.

What your taxes entitle you to is a whole new debate- but throwing it out in a thread like this makes you look like a douche bag so don't expect much respect.


----------



## Loachman (5 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter.



While Brihard's opinion, specifically, may not be taken into consideration, it would not be wise to discount the opinions of other NCOs who will play roles in your selection and consequent success or failure at several stages in the recruiting and training phases. Should one NCO form such an opinion, you should anticipate others forming similar, if not identical, opinions.

The vast majority of us are rather dedicated to our chosen profession. Lower levels of dedication, and especially complete absences, are not highly regarded as you have discovered. That poorly-motivated (perceived or real) individuals may be in a position to influence members' lives and wellbeing to their detriment is not going to sit well with those members and that is what you are seeing here.

While I have pointed out that there is nothing wrong with doing as you propose, and that the system permits it, your lack of real interest lowers your desireability from a military viewpoint and competitiveness from a recruiting one.

The perceived tone of your posts also grates as others have pointed out.


----------



## Teeps74 (5 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter.
> 
> Yes, because wanting to leave after minimum contract of service means poor ethics and reflects poor leadership skills.  :



NCOs, especially those with time in, usually have the ear of the RSM. The RSM's opinion is taken into consideration.

Deciding openly, that you will choose to milk the system is a question of ethics AND leadership potential. "Mission before self"... It is one of the main motivating factors for those of us who choose to serve. Right off the hop you are putting self before everything.


----------



## George Wallace (5 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter.
> :



An attitude like this isn't going to garner you any respect on any front.  This is typically the opposite of the qualities the CF is looking for in its future officers.  The opinions of the NCO's are always worth consideration.  An officer who ignores them is setting themselves up for failure, not only in their daily tasks, but in their careers.  To dismiss the experience and knowledge of the NCO in such a cavalier way is an indication of poor leadership qualities.  That eliteism ranks high among the list of the worse qualities found in the worse leaders throughout history.  Before you become a leader, you should learn how to be a follower.

If you think that a NCO's opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to gaining a commission, you are wrong.  You will likely find it is at their level where the initial screening starts, and their recommendations as to whether or not an applicant progresses to the next stage of selection.   Fail there, and you will have seen how far a NCO's opinion/recommendations can carry.

You really do know how to dig yourself into a hole; don't you?


----------



## Teeps74 (5 Nov 2012)

And to be sure, I agree with Loachman. It is perfectly legal to come in with the intent to milk the system and get out as soon as possible.

I ask you though, why should we choose you over someone who has career aspirations? I would prefer to spend my blood, sweat and tears in training someone who has career aspirations, over someone merely going through the motions for 8. There is a very obvious difference in attitude (at least to me) between someone who has career aspirations and someone who does not...

You would be taking away a position from someone who, is frankly a better candidate then you.


----------



## Shamrock (5 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> I suppose that I am lucky that, as an NCO, your opinion is not taken into consideration when it comes to who gains a commission as you have no say in the matter.
> 
> Yes, because wanting to leave after minimum contract of service means poor ethics and reflects poor leadership skills.  :



Dude, you're going to have a rough time when you find out who assesses you on MPOAC.  And during BMOQ.  And during BMOQ-L.


----------



## brihard (5 Nov 2012)

On the question of minimal obligatory service, I'll defer to the several (more) senior NCOs and officers who've put in their views since I posted my view on this- they've put it better than I have, and I recognize my opinion on the matter is strong enough to probably put it outside the mainstream.

They've also put the officer/NCO thing in better words than I could.


----------



## Journeyman (5 Nov 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> The perceived tone of your posts also grates as others have pointed out.


 But the writing is awesome -- eloquent, grammatically-correct, even taking the 30-seconds to spell-check.

Sure, in his posts he comes across as a self-serving douche -- but _such_ a well-spoken douche.  :nod:


----------



## Loachman (5 Nov 2012)

You *always* look at the bright side.

Eventually, someday, somebody is going to get under even your happy skin.

I bet that whoever does so will be completely shocked by your response when that finally happens.


----------



## mkil (5 Nov 2012)

Reading through this entire thread is so very sad. If this idiot gets an ROTP position over some of the amazing applicants that we have in Canada, it will be a black day for the CF. All I can say to the OP is, please don't even bother applying. The CF does not need you, and it would be wrong for a person like you to take an ROTP position away from someone whose life aspiration is the honour and serve Canada.


----------



## dcs (5 Nov 2012)

There are those that will constantly try to use the system and all that is potentially offered to secure the maximum for themselves.  

There are also those that will to the last degree defend their own actions and choice of education/career etc.  This often to the total disregards of other individual's comments. 

While there is nothing that prohibits an individual joining and doing the absolute minimum time, it will I am sure be evident during any recruiting process/interview etc.  I particularly found the earlier comment about all of the pilot training failures for these individuals to confirm same. 

My two cents in regards to this individual are as follows:

1.  Are you going to abandon your student loan obligation in the current country of study??  How are they going to recover from salary when no longer in the country?? This would seem to indicate that you want to receive a heavily subsidized or free education wherever you are. Also that if not paying back that you will not honour your obligations. 
2.  As stated, CIVI university is generally for degrees and programs "trade required" that are not offered at RMC. This is not the case for MP.
3.  As did not complete high school, unsure as to if you would even meet the requirements for ROTP, or the minimum education requirements for RMC.
4.  I have two sons at RMC currently. The number of cadets with MP as trade is extremely low.  There have been a few cadets that currently have very good marks that have asked about switching to MP and have been informed that unable to or trade closed.
5. I constantly have a problem with individuals that even if they receive an offer from RMC will turn it down and not go. Have even more with a person that wants to police the military side and military situations and laws, yet does not under any circumstance want to gain insight experience and knowledge by actually being a part of and living it.
8. Although it may not be entirely true, it comes across as a person that wants to work the system, even in ways it was not designed or intended for their own selfish personal benefit.
9. They are also looking for leadership, community service, sport and physical, military potential, integrity etc.
10. Competition is extremely fierce.   If you look at the other blogs you will see numerous individuals who state very solid academics and other items that were not selected for one or more years.  The recruiting centre told us that they had over 5 thousand individuals apply last year for about 400 spots.  Over 1,500 individuals "merit listed". 
11. There is as well the whole medical issue, and requirements for all trades. (eyesight etc)

By all means, if you want to apply.  Personally, I do not think that you will be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.


----------



## jwtg (5 Nov 2012)

dcs said:
			
		

> My two cents in regards to this individual are as follows:
> 
> 1.  Are you going to abandon your student loan obligation in the current country of study??  How are they going to recover from salary when no longer in the country?? This would seem to indicate that you want to receive a heavily subsidized or free education wherever you are. Also that if not paying back that you will not honour your obligations.
> 2.  As stated, CIVI university is generally for degrees and programs "trade required" that are not offered at RMC. This is not the case for MP.
> ...


I think, for good reason, this hasn't even factored into the conversation yet at this point.  There's nothing wrong with not wanting to go to RMC.  Not everybody's lifestyle permits it.  For example, a person with dependents may make an excellent CF officer, yet find RMC to be a poor match for their lifestyle.

RMC is not for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with people wanting to join the CF and not go there.  At least they make the decision to not waste everyone's time by going to a place they'll hate.


----------



## Jarnhamar (5 Nov 2012)

jwtg said:
			
		

> I think, for good reason, this hasn't even factored into the conversation yet at this point.  There's nothing wrong with not wanting to go to RMC.  Not everybody's lifestyle permits it.  For example, a person with dependents may make an excellent CF officer, yet find RMC to be a poor match for their lifestyle.
> 
> RMC is not for everyone, and there's nothing wrong with people wanting to join the CF and not go there.  At least they make the decision to not waste everyone's time by going to a place they'll hate.



True. This thread goes to show how important context and ones delivery can be.


----------



## dcs (5 Nov 2012)

RMC has married student quarters.  Lifestyle many not change significantly, or for certain periods of time not matter what stream one takes.

If it is this much of a concern, then give applying a lot of thought.


----------



## mkil (5 Nov 2012)

dcs said:
			
		

> RMC has married student quarters.  Lifestyle many not change significantly, or for certain periods of time not matter what stream one takes.
> 
> If it is this much of a concern, then give applying a lot of thought.



I cannot find anywhere that says anything about married student quarters. Do you know of anyone who is married, with children who have went to RMC while living with their family? Curious to know. I am married with a two year old, and if my desired trade (nursing) was offered at RMC, I would have to turn it down because my son needs his mother. I don't think that one can judge my candidacy based on the fact that life circumstances do not permit me to accept an offer at RMC. I think sometimes it is hard for people to see that obligations and responsibilities outside of the forces are just as important as the ones inside. That is just my 2 cents.


----------



## dcs (5 Nov 2012)

When son gave us the tour, he showed us the buildings that contained married student housing.  I am not sure how it is allotted or requirements to secure.  There seemed to be quite a few.  

Talk to the recruiting centre or perhaps best to call RMC directly and discuss if this is a concern.

Absolutely agree that it is important for  children to be with their parents.   Just not sure that a military nurse or other will trade will not have a number of times where the demands and requirements simply do not allow.   Perhaps there are base hospitals that one can spend the vast majority of their military career. There may also be deployments required that would regretfully separate family even with quite young children.  My son knows of a number of officers that were not for example home for quite a number of important family occasions and times.

I think that deployment/family should be or already is discussed in other blogs.


----------



## mariomike (5 Nov 2012)

mkil said:
			
		

> Do you know of anyone who is married, with children who have went to RMC while living with their family?



"Married OCdt at RMC":
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/94949.0


----------



## jwtg (5 Nov 2012)

dcs said:
			
		

> RMC has married student quarters.  Lifestyle many not change significantly, or for certain periods of time not matter what stream one takes.
> 
> If it is this much of a concern, then give applying a lot of thought.


This is incorrect.  Please ensure your information is accurate before distributing it to people who may factor it in to their decision-making process.

The old Married Quarters to which you refer have been converted to office space and are now used for CDA HQ.  *There are no married quarters on campus* outside the Commandant's residence, which is occupied by the RMC Commandant and his family.  


			
				dcs said:
			
		

> When son gave us the tour, he showed us the buildings that contained married student housing.  I am not sure how it is allotted or requirements to secure.  There seemed to be quite a few.


 The quarters you refer to are those I have described above.  They are now offices and there are no alternative married-quarters.  



> Talk to the recruiting centre or perhaps best to call RMC directly and discuss if this is a concern.


Don't bother asking your RC.  To be honest, most of the time at RMC we find out that the RCs deal with far to many other situations to be intimately familiar with the way things work at RMC, so they probably won't be able to help you with info regarding accommodations for married cadets.  Try talking to someone at RMC first.  That is the best source of info about RMC.


> Absolutely agree that it is important for  children to be with their parents.   Just not sure that a military nurse or other will trade will not have a number of times where the demands and requirements simply do not allow.   Perhaps there are base hospitals that one can spend the vast majority of their military career. There may also be deployments required that would regretfully separate family even with quite young children.  My son knows of a number of officers that were not for example home for quite a number of important family occasions and times.
> 
> I think that deployment/family should be or already is discussed in other blogs.


Family separation is a reality for CF members entering via any route.  Your comparison of deployments to RMC is also a bit of a stretch.  Of course your family isn't going to join you in Afghanistan on your tour.  Being in Afghanistan for 6-9 months is very different than 4 years of university/military training in Kingston.  There are so many factors that make deployments different that studying that I won't insult your intelligence by listing them.

Your attitude towards people not wanting to attend RMC ignores context or lifestyles that are different than those of your children.  Unless you're prepared to say that we should not recruit married individuals, or individuals with children, then you have no right casting judgement on those who want to serve in the CF, but don't want to spend a whole 4 years separated from their loved ones. (EDIT: To clarify that, by loved ones, I refer to spouses/children.  Obviously there is a natural separation from parents/siblings when one embarks on a military career.  Separation from immediate family, however, is usually short-term in the grand scheme of things, for the sake of deployments/operations or particular courses, or short postings.)

We have a very small number of OCdts who are permitted to live off-campus with their families (aside from those in the UTPNCM program) and we also have a number of OCdts who would like to live off-campus with their spouses, but are not permitted to.  They continue to occupy quarters with the rest of the cadet wing.

The policy these days is that all OCdts live on-campus, anything else is an exception to the rule, and they are very few and far between.

If you have ANY QUESTIONS about RMC, please contact RMC directly (I believe there is a liaison office you can find on the RMC website), or PM me because I do go there and know a bit about how things work.  

If you think yo have ANY ANSWERS about RMC, like dcs does, then please be careful to verify your information before propagating misinformation.

Also, don't feel guilty if you want to join the CF and not go to RMC.  You are allowed to have that preference, and don't worry if other people can't get their mind around the fact that your lifestyle isn't the same as their 18 year old fresh-out-of-high school child who has no need to bring dependents with them.

[/rant]
I think this thread has journeyed sufficiently far away from it's original topic that it's about time it returns to it...whatever it was.


----------



## OscarMike (5 Nov 2012)

mkil said:
			
		

> Reading through this entire thread is so very sad. If this idiot gets an ROTP position over some of the amazing applicants that we have in Canada, it will be a black day for the CF. All I can say to the OP is, please don't even bother applying. The CF does not need you, and it would be wrong for a person like you to take an ROTP position away from someone whose life aspiration is the honour and serve Canada.



Oh so now I'm an "idiot" for not wanting to live out the rest of my days in the Canadian Forces? Oh, I understand it now. You would rather have someone suffer for the next 40+ years until retirement without ever having the chance to fulfil their life dreams. Are you actually pathetic & naive enough to think, even for a second, that someone's aspirations are simply to serve in the military without a bigger picture? Have you even considered that long-term the Canadian Forces CANNOT offer me what I'm after in life other than an opportunity to build a foundation / stepping stone to achieve what what I'm after in life? 

Shall I invoke the example of the Canadian soldier who committed suicide after being forced to redeploy for something like the third time?  The soldier obviously was not happy with his career path and didn't want to be there, but hey you know you guys would rather have someone be drive to the point of  suicide then be discharged. You're a disgusting narrow-minded individual and I hope I never have the unfortunate pleasure of you under my command because I would have a very real beef with you. 

Furthermore yep definitely makes me not an amazing applicant because I'm not willing to give up my long-term goals and career aspirations simply to serve my country for the rest of my days. Let's cast aside that regardless of where I end up that I will always be serving my country. You do not need to be apart of the armed forces to serve your country and I dare say if you do not believe this then I kindly ask you to refrain from spewing uttermost bullshit and go get yourself educated.


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## OscarMike (6 Nov 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> While Brihard's opinion, specifically, may not be taken into consideration, it would not be wise to discount the opinions of other NCOs who will play roles in your selection and consequent success or failure at several stages in the recruiting and training phases. Should one NCO form such an opinion, you should anticipate others forming similar, if not identical, opinions.
> 
> The vast majority of us are rather dedicated to our chosen profession. Lower levels of dedication, and especially complete absences, are not highly regarded as you have discovered. That poorly-motivated (perceived or real) individuals may be in a position to influence members' lives and wellbeing to their detriment is not going to sit well with those members and that is what you are seeing here.
> 
> ...



Re-enlisting after your minimum period of service frankly does not constitute to being dedicated to chosen professions as your chosen profession, in this case Military Police, can be done outside of the military in the civilian worlds. Arguably, it is fallacious to suggest, even for a minute, that plans to not re-enlist constitutes to having lower levels of dedication and poor-motivation.

I'm curious to how no plans to do subsequent periods of service translates to having low levels of dedication & motivation. On the contrary I have a very real picture, from past experiences, of life in the military and I realise that it isn't for the faint of heart therefore would not waste my time or the times of others, e.g. recruiting, becoming part of the military when there are other pathways to my goals in life. I have real interest at this time but such interest does not coincide periods of service - point blank. This does not mean that, say 5 years, from now my plans will not change. I could very well keep re-enlisting for subsequent periods of service but at this time I doubt it. 

Like I have said countless times for now I am completely motivated and dedicated in my initial minimum period of service. Anything subsequent periods of service will be taken into consideration based upon my experiences at that time and willingness to continue on.


----------



## Teeps74 (6 Nov 2012)

OscarMike said:
			
		

> Oh so now I'm an "idiot" for not wanting to live out the rest of my days in the Canadian Forces? Oh, I understand it now. You would rather have someone suffer for the next 40+ years until retirement without ever having the chance to fulfil their life dreams. Are you actually pathetic & naive enough to think, even for a second, that someone's aspirations are simply to serve in the military without a bigger picture? Have you even considered that long-term the Canadian Forces CANNOT offer me what I'm after in life other than an opportunity to build a foundation / stepping stone to achieve what what I'm after in life?
> 
> *Shall I invoke the example of the Canadian soldier who committed suicide after being forced to redeploy for something like the third time?  The soldier obviously was not happy with his career path and didn't want to be there, but hey you know you guys would rather have someone be drive to the point of  suicide then be discharged. You're a disgusting narrow-minded individual and I hope I never have the unfortunate pleasure of you under my command because I would have a very real beef with you.
> *
> Furthermore yep definitely makes me not an amazing applicant because I'm not willing to give up my long-term goals and career aspirations simply to serve my country for the rest of my days. Let's cast aside that regardless of where I end up that I will always be serving my country. You do not need to be apart of the armed forces to serve your country and I dare say if you do not believe this then I kindly ask you to refrain from spewing uttermost bullshit and go get yourself educated.



Kid, you are barking up exactly the wrong tree. Re-examine what you want to do with your life, as, using the CF as a stepping stone is not for you... You are simply not cut out for it and you are certainly not officer material. I am not in fear of you ever commanding anything, as this attitude of yours here, will simply be too much of an obstacle for you on your BMOQ.

To drive the point home even deeper (as I imagine the finer points are already lost), you came here with your story. People reacted to your story. You got your back up and dug even deeper. Your lack of understanding for military ethos is something that I am unsure you will ever be able to over come... The CF is NOT about you and what the CF can do for YOU.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Nov 2012)

24 hour lock
Bruce
army.ca staff


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## CDN in TX (18 Sep 2013)

I was born in Canada but have lived in the United States for almost 11 years now. I moved here as a dependent of father who was transferred here for his job. I am still and have always been a Canadian citizen, and have not held any other citizenship of any other country. I have several questions about my eligibility of joining the CF but will keep it to just the few below:

1. I know that since I am a Canadian Citizen and am over the age of 17 I am eligible to apply, but do I have to be living in Canada when I start my application or can I move back to Canada after the application process has started?

2. How long does one think a background check will take since I have lived outside of Canada for so long and does this look bad to a recruiter? (I know that there is no x=y answer to this question but I'd appreciate any thoughts or advice about it.)

3. Lastly, I am looking into a welder, machinist, carpenter, etc. trade in the CF. If I already have some training and am continuing that training in the trade does that make me a better candidate or will that not make too big of a difference in the competitiveness of the application process?


I appreciate any and all help that I can receive on the topic(s) and if there is a thread about this already I apologize for not finding it and would ask if someone wouldn't mind steering me in the right direction.

Thanks for the help ~ Kel


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## DAA (18 Sep 2013)

CDN in TX said:
			
		

> I was born in Canada but have lived in the United States for almost 11 years now. I moved here as a dependent of father who was transferred here for his job. I am still and have always been a Canadian citizen, and have not held any other citizenship of any other country. I have several questions about my eligibility of joining the CF but will keep it to just the few below:
> 1. I know that since I am a Canadian Citizen and am over the age of 17 I am eligible to apply, but do I have to be living in Canada when I start my application or can I move back to Canada after the application process has started?
> 2. How long does one think a background check will take since I have lived outside of Canada for so long and does this look bad to a recruiter? (I know that there is no x=y answer to this question but I'd appreciate any thoughts or advice about it.)
> 3. Lastly, I am looking into a welder, machinist, carpenter, etc. trade in the CF. If I already have some training and am continuing that training in the trade does that make me a better candidate or will that not make too big of a difference in the competitiveness of the application process?
> ...



1.  If you are resident outside Canada, it will be difficult for you to be processed but not impossible.  Once you submit your application, you will be informed of the process.
2.  Pre-sec from the US is usually anywhere from 2-4 months at the most. 
3.  Depends on which occupations you apply for and whether or not there is any relevancy between your training and the occupation


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## CDN in TX (18 Sep 2013)

Thanks for your help! I am a certified manual machinist and am working on getting certified in pipe welding. I was looking into being a materials technician, which from what I read would be right up my alley.


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## Rifleman62 (18 Sep 2013)

I believe that the FBI does the security screening if you are living in the USA. They are doing my granddaughters.


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## The_Falcon (19 Sep 2013)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> I believe that the FBI does the security screening if you are living in the USA. They are doing my granddaughters.



Applicants from outside Canada are usually required to obtain a "clearance letter" from the local police (or in the case of those applying from the States, the FBI), and it's only to determine if you have outstanding criminal issues, and/or legal obligations in that jurisdiction.  There are still other components to the background screening.


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## WONG83 (20 Nov 2013)

Hi everybody,

I'm currently living in Hong Kong & been out here for 10 years already,
looking to move back to Canada & enlist in the armed forces though as for the background check I'm just curious
approximately how long it takes since I've been out of the country for so long.
Since I'm planning on moving back early spring I would also like to know if there is a specific time of year when applications are processed,
as I hope to get the ball rolling as soon as possible from when I officially move back.
Is it better I send in my online application only once I'm back home or can I send it while I'm still living in Hong Kong?

Many thanks for any feedback.


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## DAA (20 Nov 2013)

WONG83 said:
			
		

> Hi everybody,
> 
> I'm currently living in Hong Kong & been out here for 10 years already,
> looking to move back to Canada & enlist in the armed forces though as for the background check I'm just curious
> ...



You can apply at any time.  The background check for you will probably take 6 months plus but that is only a guess.


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## Ice97 (20 Nov 2013)

Do you have Canadian Citizenship?  I don't believe that you can apply to be in the CF without it.


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## WONG83 (21 Nov 2013)

Ice97 said:
			
		

> Do you have Canadian Citizenship?  I don't believe that you can apply to be in the CF without it.



Yes I am a Canadian citizen, I was born & raised in Canada (Canadian/Chinese father & French Canadian mother) so no issue there.


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## Ice97 (21 Nov 2013)

Definately apply ASAP to get the ball rolling.  The worst thing that they'll probably say is to wait until you are residing in Canada again.


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## WONG83 (21 Nov 2013)

Ice97 said:
			
		

> Definately apply ASAP to get the ball rolling.  The worst thing that they'll probably say is to wait until you are residing in Canada again.



Great, thanks for all the quick feedback.


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## Ice97 (21 Nov 2013)

Not a problem.  What trade are you looking at applying for?


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## WONG83 (22 Nov 2013)

Ice97 said:
			
		

> Not a problem.  What trade are you looking at applying for?



Interested in Combat Engineer, Weapons technician & if either isn't open for choice Infantry.
I've just turned 30, thought I might not have been young enough too enlist but dropped by the recruiting office in
Sudbury during my last visit where they told me otherwise.
Hoping the screening process won't take too long & the remainder of the process goes by smooth,
is there a certain time of year though when they start bringing those who've enlisted in for processing after screening?
I'm currently checking with friends/associates & online for some work to keep me busy in the meantime once I've arrived back
until the ball starts moving for this new chapter I'm hoping to start in my life.


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## McGee (17 Apr 2014)

I'm going to jump right in, my situation is a bit complicated.

Basically I have dual citizenship (Canada/Ireland) and am currently living in Ireland. Im also in my second last year of a pharmacy degree. I would be very interested in pursuing a career in the Forces as a Pharmacy Officer. There are two main hurdles I would expect:

1) Is it possible to apply from abroad? who would be the best person to contact in this situation or would I have to travel to Canada and apply from there?

2) My degree will be recognised in Canada but I would have to take a short course and a few exams to become a fully licensed pharmacist. Would I need to be fully licensed before entering the Forces or would I be able to complete this after basic training? Maybe take a somewhat "paid education" approach?

Any and all comments would be much appreciated


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## flatlander13 (18 Apr 2014)

I can't comment too much on your first question besides saying that the initial application occurs online, however further testing in the application process would take place at a recruitment centre. Not to mention the fact that your reliability screening would take longer singe you've lived outside of Canada for some time. Maybe someone else can add to this...
Question #2:
 "DIRECT ENTRY
If you already have a Bachelor of Pharmacy degree from a recognized Canadian university, have passed the Pharmacy Examining Board of Canada’s qualifying exam, and hold a current license to practice client-based pharmacy in a Canadian province or territory, the Forces may place you directly into the required on-the-job training program following basic training. Basic training and military officer qualification training are required before being assigned." -- as per the description on forces.ca. So you would need to be licensed to practice in Canada prior to commencing bmoq. I would doubt that your additional courses or licensing exams would be covered, but you could definitely look into it! Hope this helps a bit.


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## The_Falcon (18 Apr 2014)

flatlander13 said:
			
		

> I can't comment too much on your first question besides saying that the initial application occurs online, however further testing in the application process would take place at a recruitment centre. Not to mention the fact that your reliability screening would take longer singe you've lived outside of Canada for some time. Maybe someone else can add to this...
> Question #2:
> "DIRECT ENTRY
> If you already have a Bachelor of Pharmacy degree from a recognized Canadian university, have passed the Pharmacy Examining Board of Canada’s qualifying exam, and hold a current license to practice client-based pharmacy in a Canadian province or territory, the Forces may place you directly into the required on-the-job training program following basic training. Basic training and military officer qualification training are required before being assigned." -- as per the description on forces.ca. So you would need to be licensed to practice in Canada prior to commencing bmoq. I would doubt that your additional courses or licensing exams would be covered, but you could definitely look into it! Hope this helps a bit.



As has been said multiple times, people like you need to stay in your lanes, and not answer questions you don't know the answer to. 

To the op your situation is not unique.

1) apply online, follow the steps, your file will eventually make it Toronto, which handles all out of country applications.  There are threads already on this. 

2)If you are completing a foriegn degree, you will most definately have to get a determination on it's equivalency (you will be told who to use), and most likely undergo a PLAR.


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## ModlrMike (18 Apr 2014)

Hatchet Man has answered part I for you, I'll shed some light on part II.

In order to be enrolled as a Pharmacist, you have to be licensed in _any_ Canadian jurisdiction. You can't PLAR qualifications for which a license is required. If you're already certain that your degree meets the requirements, then you would be responsible for any subsequent national and provincial training and licensure exams.

In short, the license process is conducted on your dime. Once completed, you're eligible for enrollment.


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## The_Falcon (18 Apr 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Hatchet Man has answered part I for you, I'll shed some light on part II.
> 
> In order to be enrolled as a Pharmacist, you have to be licensed in _any_ Canadian jurisdiction. You can't PLAR qualifications for which a license is required. If you're already certain that your degree meets the requirements, then you would be responsible for any subsequent national and provincial training and licensure exams.
> 
> In short, the license process is conducted on your dime. Once completed, you're eligible for enrollment.



I didn't say the PLAR would grant quals, just that he would go through it (most of the health occupations, require a PLAR actually), especially since his degree is foreign.  Not all PLAR's are to grant qualifications, the "A" = assessment.  The CAF doesn't universally accept all credentials/degrees, even if Provincial authorities do.  An example would be paramedic training, the CAF only accepts  diplomas from schools that are CMA approved, whereas to be licensed in a province, this is not necessarily the case.


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## CanadianInTexas (4 Dec 2015)

Howdy y’all. 

Since I haven’t seen many post in this forum from Canadians applying from outside of Canada, I thought I would share my journey so far. 

I applied for Vehicle Tech back on August 11. I got an email couple days later asking questions about why I am living outside Canada. Easily taken care of. Got an email from a recruiter two weeks later on the 24th asking for proof of Canadian citizenship and Canadian SIC. No problem, easily sent in. Next day got the paperwork email. All these forms took a little while to fill out, as I had questions about some of the questions and information needed. Submitted all of the paperwork on September 23. Two days later, I sent in my request for the FBI Background Check. That was approximately 70 days ago. According to the FBI website, current processing time is 13 to 15 weeks, so looks like I have another 3 to 5 weeks.

I will update once I get any news, unless there are any questions.


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## Bradford_Maxwell (5 Dec 2015)

I did the same from Texas, I've returned to Canada since then and I'm in University applying for ROTP. It took a very long time for the background check for me as well, but don't open it if it will be submitted in person to your recruiter. If it's electronically and they think it may be a false document because it looks really unofficial and garbage (which it does), then ask them if they can call the number that's on it to confirm the content of your identity history summary.

Good luck.


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## lifeuptimize (21 Jan 2016)

Nice story.Hey actually i am new to this forum.Not sure how to start  [:'(


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## Loachman (21 Jan 2016)

Welcome to Army.ca. Start by reading older relevant threads and trying the Search Function. There is a ton of information on this Site. Almost any question that you may have, and many that have not even occurred to you yet, has been answered already.


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## pushurlimits (24 Jan 2016)

CanadianInTexas,

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm a Canadian University student studying in Rhode Island, and I'm planning on taking the DEO route into the CF upon my graduation. Like you, I haven't seen too many posts on here about Canadians applying to the CF from The States. Thanks for starting this! 

I've hugely enjoyed my time in the States, but it's been frustrating not being able to move forward with my CF application since, well, I need that degree first and ROTP doesn't exactly cover American Universities! I'm curious, do you plan on moving back to Canada before joining the CF? Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for the tip on the timeline for the FBI background check and for starting this thread. I'm definitely curious as to how your situation pans out, hopefully it's smooth sailing from here on out.

Best of luck!


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## mariomike (25 Jan 2016)

pushurlimits said:
			
		

> Like you, I haven't seen too many posts on here about Canadians applying to the CF from The States.





			
				CDN in TX said:
			
		

> I was born in Canada but have lived in the United States for almost 11 years now.


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## CanadianInTexas (26 Jan 2016)

Finally have an update! I recieved my FBI background check yesterday in the mail. This was 17 weeks which makes sense if you take the 13-15 week waiting time from the FBI and add 2 weeks for Christmas and News Years. Next step for me is to scan and send it to my recruiter


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## rfh15 (6 Mar 2017)

Hello,

I am a 24 year old Canadian citizen who was born and raised in Lebanon (dual citizenship).  I’ve studied at the country’s top University (AUB) and earned a dual degree in Mechanical Engineering and Computer Science with a very good academic record.  I also earned a minor in Math.

I’ve been working for a year as a Digital Project Manager in Lebanon, communicating with multiple teams in different countries.  My mother tongue is French, and I did my undergraduate studies in English.  I also speak and write Arabic.

I found my job didn't have much value, so I recently resigned to relocate to Canada. I will arrive on the 21st of March and will reside there for good.  I will apply to the Electrical & Mechanical Engineering Officer position: I think I'm more than qualified for the position, and am really looking forward a career in the military.  I also think this job will suit me a lot.

I want to prepare all the necessary documents before my arrival, and want to know approximately how long it would take from the moment I contact the recruiter to receiving the offer so I can plan the coming months better. 

It would be an immense privilege for me to join the Forces.  [
Can anyone give me some advice to make it happen as fast as possible?

Thank you for your help,
Raymond


----------



## mariomike (6 Mar 2017)

rfh15 said:
			
		

> I am a 24 year old Canadian citizen who was born and raised in Lebanon (dual citizenship).



Security Check/Level Superthread (incl dual citizenship) - Check Here First  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/1399.25
35 pages.

Pre-Enrolment Security Clearance Pre-Assessment 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/118362.0

Birth Certificates and Citizenship (Merged)
https://army.ca/forums/threads/17749.25
2 pages.

Security Clearance For a Person Living Abroad  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/121568.0

Living Abroad before Joining Reg/Reserves?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/104071.0



			
				DAA said:
			
		

> But if you were subject to a "Pre-Security Clearance Screening", then depending on the countries which are involved, the process can take from 6-18 months and sometimes longer.



Background Check (Merged) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/97476.50
3 pages.

etc...



			
				rfh15 said:
			
		

> I will apply to the Electrical & Mechanical Engineering Officer position:



https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+Electrical+%26+Mechanical+Engineering+Officer&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=emK9WMjfFOmM8Qfwk6igCg&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+EME&*

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


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## clmarr (8 Mar 2017)

Having lived in a different country, you are in for a long wait. From your time of application to BMQ, you can probably expect 1.5 to 2 years to pass (especially since Lebanon in a non NATO country). I am going through the same process.


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## 10wskali (30 Mar 2017)

You were born and raised in Lebanon for 24 years of your life but you have a Canadian citizenship? Interesting.


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## Loachman (30 Mar 2017)

rfh15 registered on 06 March 2017, posted fifteen minutes later, and was last active very early the following day.


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## 10wskali (30 Mar 2017)

Well if he's as committed as he says he is then he should be back. I'm quite curious about it to be honest.


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## Blackadder1916 (30 Mar 2017)

jrogalew said:
			
		

> You were born and raised in Lebanon for 24 years of your life but you have a Canadian citizenship? Interesting.



Why is that interesting?  Because he is a Canadian citizen, perhaps without ever setting foot in the country, or because of the country that he is living in?  What if he relayed the same story, however, instead of Lebanon, it was the United Kingdom?  Back a few decades, when I was going through officer training, one of the other officer candidates was in the same situation.  He was born in the UK, with a Canadian/Brit dual citizen father who lived and worked there and a Brit mother; he attended uni in the UK; he had never resided in Canada before he applied to join the CF;  he was processed while still living overseas, was accepted and moved to Canada for the sole purpose of starting BOTC complete with the Limey accent.


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## 10wskali (30 Mar 2017)

Well that is interesting then isn't it? 

I have a dual citizenship as well, the second being Polish. I've lived in Canada since I was 2 years old and I am 27 now. This isn't a civilian job and I feel like in order to keep it functioning as a *Canadian* army you want recruits that have some kind of reason for joining it other than, and I quote:



			
				rfh15 said:
			
		

> I think I'm more than qualified for the position, and am really looking forward a career in the military.  I also think this job will suit me a lot.



A feeling of being entitled to joining the Armed Forces just because you are a Canadian citizen on paper is wrong. You don't see me rushing to join the Polish Armed Forces because I like going there on vacation and like their international football team. So I don't really understand the appeal for somebody who grew up in an arguably different culture, wanting to spontaneously join the Canadian Armed Forces to serve Canadians and protect our freedoms and values. Seems like people are joining up for the wrong reasons, just because it "looks good" and "I wanna". 

I've essentially lived here all my life and fully appreciate what Canada has offered me thus far; opportunities that I would not have had growing up in Poland. As a civilian I have a sense of pride and a sense of duty. I think there are some inherent qualities that fully assimilated Canadians have that are essential to fostering a positive reputation for our military; a sense of belonging and a sense of a common goal that can be best understood by individuals that spent a good portion of their lives here.



			
				rfh15 said:
			
		

> It would be an immense privilege for me to join the Forces.  [
> Can anyone give me some advice to make it happen as fast as possible?



How can you understand the immense privilege if you have never even resided here?

Simply put, it honestly doesn't make sense to me for somebody who has never resided in a country to want to join their military. "Oh! Canada looks good! I think I want to go fight for them." Its a good thing you can't claim citizenship status in any country of your choosing, otherwise we'd all be fighting for Switzerland.

Those are my 2 cents on the matter. I do however fully appreciate the right to sign up and I am not trying to discourage anybody, regardless of where they live and where they have lived, from applying. I simply don't understand the motives that in my opinion are false to begin with.


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## Remius (30 Mar 2017)

People join for a variety of reasons.  I know a few Brits ex military who have come over exactly because of Canada looks good! And wanted to keep serving beyond what they could back home.  They all served with distinction regardless of their motivation.  

I don't care why people join.  I care about how they serve.


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## 10wskali (30 Mar 2017)

Remius said:
			
		

> People join for a variety of reasons.  I know a few Brits ex military who have come over exactly because of Canada looks good! And wanted to keep serving beyond what they could back home.  They all served with distinction regardless of their motivation.
> 
> I don't care why people join.  I care about how they serve.



Well said, and I agree that everyone deserves a chance to prove themselves regardless of their reasons for joining.


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## Loachman (31 Mar 2017)

I will echo what Remius said.

Many Canadians have joined the Armed Forces of other nations as well. Thirty thousand Canadians joined the US Armed Forces during the Vietnam War. Many Americans came north during the Second World War and joined before the US was invited to participate directly by the Japanese.

Hundreds of thousands of immigrants come to this Country every year. What is "the appeal for somebody who grew up in an arguably different culture, wanting to spontaneously" immigrate? And there's likely nothing spontaneous about this for either immigrants in general or rfh15.

rfh15 has Canadian citizenship for a reason, and is most likely far from ignorant about this Country. Whatever his personal reason for wishing to join, he is as welcome to do so as any other qualified applicant. He would not be the first person with a Lebanese background to do so, or to die in service to Canada as one did not many years ago in Afghanistan.

Lastly, nowhere does he indicate a "feeling of being entitled to join(ing) the Armed Forces". Nowhere. He states quite clearly that it would be an "immense privilege", and I am more than happy with people who see it that way, and who display a little bit of humility like that.

I wish him well in his quest, because he can make a solid contribution to this Country, and I look forward to more of his posts.


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## rajdhagat (11 May 2017)

Hi everyone, I have a couple questions that really need answering, but I'll give a little background info first because it might or might not help.
I'm an 18-year-old currently living in India, we had to move to a warmer climate due to my dad's spinal surgeries. I moved here in Aug 2012 with my parents and it's almost 5 years now. I have a dual citizenship in India but my primary is Canada and I'm on track to finish high school by March of 2018. 
My concern is will the forces even consider my application (because I've been out of country for so long) 
If it will, then I'll have to send all my paperwork from India, I mean, there's no recruiter nearby, is that possible?
I know that if I apply today, there's no way that my application would be processed my March next year anyways so when do you guys suggest I send my application? Also if you could list the current standard for people getting into the infantry trade out of high school, just so I know what I'm up against. Any help would be highly appreciated because I've put all my money on joining the army and I have no backup plans whatsoever with regards to what I'd do after high school if this doesn't work out.
Thanks


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## rajdhagat (11 May 2017)

I already have a previous question merged it. I must have forgotten it was there. Thanks. 
But if you could also provide a basic idea of what I'm going up against with my trade choice and age.

And also suppose I were to apply today and everything gets cleared out by next year and an appointment is scheduled before March 2018, can I have it changed or not?


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## Loachman (11 May 2017)

There are threads that cover all aspects of the recruiting process, including security checks and timelines. Look in the stickied "Common Topics" threads at the top of each subforum.

Yes, it'll take you a bit of time to work through those, but you'll learn more in the process, and save others from duplicating answers and therefore limit clutter on this Site.

The Recruiting System is also cunningly designed to accommodate people other than Army.ca Site members, so go online and start applying.

Qapla!


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## rajdhagat (11 May 2017)

Thank you very much!


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## Cotroni (24 May 2017)

Hi guys,

In cCanada from 2000 to 2006, I became Canadian in 2006, was born in France from non-Canadian relatives and set sails for canada in 2000.
I am now 42 , holder of a B.sc biomedical sciences, few years of work in the pharmaceutical industry
then went back to med school in europe. 2 years left before I get my degree in medicine, however I wanna be back in Canada to join the army
question: am I allowed to join the CAF?
Will my medical degree from Belgium be recognized?
if not, can I join as a combat medic?
given that my parents are not Canadian, it is true that I must have 10 years of residence  in Canada before applying?
Thx for your assistance


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## mariomike (24 May 2017)

Cotroni said:
			
		

> question: am I allowed to join the CAF?



To apply to the Forces, you must:
1.Be a Canadian Citizen.
2.Be 17 years of age, with parental consent, or older, except: 
•Regular Officer Training Plan – Junior applications must be 16 or older.
•Reserve Force - Applicants may be 16 years of age if they are also enrolled as a full-time high school student.
3.Have completed at least Grade 10 or Secondaire IV (in Quebec). 
•Certain entry programs and occupations require higher levels of education. 
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100#who



			
				Cotroni said:
			
		

> Will my medical degree from Belgium be recognized?



If you attended and graduated high-school, college or university in another country, you may need to have your education evaluated by the Alliance of Credential Evaluation Services of Canada to determine if it is equivalent to the education provided in Canada. The Forces will not pay for the cost of the evaluation.
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100#education



			
				Cotroni said:
			
		

> if not, can I join as a combat medic?



Medical Technician

Entry plans

Required education

The minimum required education to apply for this position is the completion of the provincial requirements for Grade 12 or Secondaire V in Quebec with Grade 11 or Math (or Quebec equivalent) and any Biology and Chemistry course at the Grade 12 or Secondary V level.

This position also requires a valid provincial/territorial driver’s licence.

Direct entry

If you already have a college from a recognized Primary Care Paramedic program as well as a current registration, license or certification to practise as a Paramedic from a Canadian provincial or territorial regulatory authority, the CAF may place you directly into the any required on-the-job training program following basic training. Basic training and military occupation training is required before being assigned. If you have graduated in the last 24 months, no minimum experience is required. If you have graduated more than 24 months ago, at least 480 hours of cumulative experience is required as a Primary Care Paramedic with an emergency medical service in the past 24 months.

Paid education

Non-commissioned Member Subsidized Training Education Program (NCM-STEP).

Because this position requires specialty training, the Forces will pay successful recruits to attend the diploma program at an approved Canadian college. NCM SEP students attend basic training and on-the-job training during the summer months. They receive full-time salary including medical and dental care, as well as vacation time with full-pay in exchange for working with the Forces for a period of time. If you choose to apply to this program, you must apply both to the Forces and the appropriate college. For more information, see Paid education.
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/caf-jobs/career-options/fields-work/health-care/medical-technician.html#entry

Reliability screening: the reliability screening and security check will take longer if you lived in another country or if you have a criminal record.
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100#reasons

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


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## Cotroni (24 May 2017)

Thanks a lot for your assistance this much appreciated.

Is there any age limit?
Given that my security check might take longer since I have lived in Europe for the past 10 years, any idea about how long the whole recruitment process might take?
For Canadians living overseas how can we make an appointment with a recruiting center? 
will I have to fly to canada for every single steps of the recruitment process (aptitude test,fitness test,interview etc..?

Should  every candidate meet the same requirements for the fitness test regardless of their age and gender?
thx


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## mariomike (24 May 2017)

Cotroni said:
			
		

> Thanks a lot for your assistance this much appreciated.



You are welcome. Good luck.  



			
				Cotroni said:
			
		

> Is there any age limit?



Age Standard

On enrolment into the Regular Force, you must be of an age where there is enough time to complete any necessary training and your first term of service before the compulsory retirement age of 60. 

Reservists must be able to complete 2 years of service for each year of training before reaching the compulsory retirement age of 60.
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100#age



			
				Cotroni said:
			
		

> Given that my security check might take longer since I have lived in Europe for the past 10 years, any idea about how long the whole recruitment process might take?



Security Check/Level Superthread [MERGED] 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/1399.50
36 pages.

TIMINGS - ESTIMATED TIMES FOR_______________  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/81054.0



			
				Cotroni said:
			
		

> For Canadians living overseas how can we make an appointment with a recruiting center?
> will I have to fly to canada for every single steps of the recruitment process (aptitude test,fitness test,interview etc..?



Applying from Overseas (Officer, NCM - merged )
https://army.ca/forums/threads/86619.100
5 pages.



			
				Cotroni said:
			
		

> Should  every candidate meet the same requirements for the fitness test regardless of their age and gender?



Fitness for Operational Requirements of CF Employment (FORCE): New PT test stds  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/106313.0
35 pages.

About the FORCE Program 
https://www.cfmws.com/en/aboutus/psp/dfit/fitness/forceprogram/pages/about-the-force-program.aspx

FORCE - FAQs 
https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/PSP/DFIT/Fitness/FORCEprogram/Pages/FAQs.aspx


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## Cotroni (5 Jun 2017)

Hi and thank you so much for your help

It's amazing how comprehensive the raplies are, very very helpful 

Ok here is another question, would you know by any chance how long would a security clearance take for someone born in France?

Knowing that in France we can ask for our criminal record, would you know whether adding it to my application file might speed up the application process?

I am really motivated to enroll in the CAF, howeve given that I was not born Canadian and that I am
 43 there are certainly some areas where I would probably not being accepted for fair reasons, so, I am wondering whether you might know in which areas we see most Canadian "immigrants" being affected to? This might help me making my decision as to which CAF job might fit me best.

Thanks a lot for your assistance once again


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## Cotroni (5 Jun 2017)

JB 11 11 said:
			
		

> UPDATE:
> 
> So I called the recruiting centre after my last post and in fact it turns out that there is a completely different office that deals strictly with Overseas applicants. The Mcpl I talked to was super friendly and helpful and got me sorted. Unfortunetly, I needed to get some documents from the Italian authorities (where Im posted) because I am "technically" a resident of Italy while here... and well, Italy being Italy, it took for bloody ever to get a silly little peice of paper and by then my trades had closed. C'est la vie!
> 
> ...



hi there,

I hope you managed to move forward with your application.
Could tell me who specifically deals with applications from overseas? I am based in France and plan to apply to teh CAF soon

Thanks for your help

Best regards,


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## da1root (6 Jun 2017)

Please note that jobs are not given to "immigrants" based on them being immigrants.  When you are trying to decide which occupation to apply to, it is linked to both your education and your aptitude.

As to how long your security clearance would take - mariomike has already provided you with resources that have questions & answers to this question; please take the time to read those threads. 



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> Security Check/Level Superthread [MERGED]
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/1399.50
> 
> 
> ...


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## da1root (6 Jun 2017)

Cotroni said:
			
		

> I hope you managed to move forward with your application.
> Could tell me who specifically deals with applications from overseas? I am based in France and plan to apply to teh CAF soon



You've replied to a post from 2010 and the user was last online December 07, 2011.

All applications for foreign applicants are overseen by staff at Recruiting Group Headquarters.  You will be put in touch with the appropriate staff once you fill out the online application.


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## Cotroni (8 Jun 2017)

thanks a lot for your replies.


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## oryxs (10 Jun 2017)

A very interesting read. Sometimes people don't have a choice where they live eg kids. As a former air force pilot, I now work overseas in the civilian sector. Left Canada 10 years ago and my son, then 9 years old, had no choice but to move with his family. He is now busy going through the application process to join the CAF, so in a very similar situation as a few of the contributors on here. Being Canadian is more than just living there.


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## oryxs (10 Jun 2017)

Cotroni said:
			
		

> hi there,
> 
> I hope you managed to move forward with your application.
> Could tell me who specifically deals with applications from overseas? I am based in France and plan to apply to teh CAF soon
> ...




Just apply online and the OUTCAN recruiter will contact you once application is received. Busy  going through the process now.


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## Time (15 Jun 2017)

Hello. I am very interested in the idea and the process of joining the Canadian Forces. I am doing quite a bit of research and I am finding these forums to be quite helpful. 

My main concern is regarding myself and my *double citizenship*. _I was born in Canada_ but shortly after our family moved to Russia where my parents and ancestors are from. I have both Russian and Canadian citizenships, and I have lived in Russia in the past 10 years for a longer time than I have lived here in Canada, second year going forward. I am fluent in both languages which can be a bonus for my career's future. I was wondering how this will affect my Application and Recruiting process. How will it affect it time-wise and will it directly change the chances of me joining the CF?

I shall thank all of the responders in advance.


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## mariomike (15 Jun 2017)

Time said:
			
		

> My main concern is regarding myself and my double citizenship.



See also,

Dual citizenship
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+%22dual+citizenship%22&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=bf1BWYXmJe6fXtKRnpAG&gws_rd=ssl

How will dual citizenship affect application processing time
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:r_ifZAX_ZY8J:https://army.ca/forums/index.php%3Ftopic%3D125477.0+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

If you have ever lived outside Canada or have an immediate family member who currently lives outside Canada: You will be asked to fill out the “Pre-Enrolment Security Clearance Pre-Assessment Questionnaire”.  You should be prepared to provide adequate, verifiable information for the last 10 years. This information is used to determine if a Security Clearance Pre-Assessment is required, especially if you:
•have dual citizenship
•if you lived, worked, studied or travelled outside of Canada in the last 10 years for a total of at least 180 days 
•if you have a child, parent, step-parent, spouse, in-laws, brother or sister (half & step) living outside of Canada

If a Clearance Pre-Assessment is required, it can take between 6 to 18 months to complete. 

Reliability screening: the reliability screening and security check will take longer if you lived in another country or if you have a criminal record.
http://www.forces.ca/en/page/applynow-100

_As always,_ Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


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## Time (15 Jun 2017)

I thank you for a very concise and descriptive response. The links and references are much appreciated.


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## mariomike (15 Jun 2017)

Time said:
			
		

> I thank you for a very concise and descriptive response. The links and references are much appreciated.



You are welcome. Good luck.


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## CEDE NULLIS (7 Jul 2017)

I am going through the process now. Here are the steps so far for anyone interested: 

Day 1 - Applied online and received confirmation e-mail almost immediately
Day 2 - Received an OUTCAN confirmation e-mail with some basic questions to fill out, which I did
Day 3 - Received an e-mail stating I am not eligible for a CF funded trip back to Canada to go through the steps (fair enough! I certainly wasn’t expecting it!). In the e-mail were instructions to e-mail CFRC Toronto for an appointment. Having done the CFAT somewhat recently (I bottled it on my application in 2015) I don’t have to do that again. 
Day 15 – Waiting for a response. I am back to Vancouver to visit family in August so ideally I’d be able to do my interview and medical then. If not I can go to Toronto for work pretty much anytime and just stay an extra couple days to go through the steps.

If anyone knows a direct number to speak to anyone in the Toronto office that would be helpful as I haven’t been successful in getting through on the numbers they provided. Feel free to DM me.

Cheers


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## mlow45 (19 Jul 2018)

I am currently living in the United states and have received the email telling me to contact the Toronto centre within 30 days. It has been 3 weeks without a response to my email and have not been able to make any phone contact and was wondering if the only way I can further my process is to go in person to the centre. I want to make sure this would help me as it will be an expensive trip to make. Thanks for you time.


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