# Medical Technician - Unskilled, Semi-skilled, Skilled Application



## Unglunk (5 Dec 2008)

I was told recently that i will most likely be bypassing the QL3 training for Med Tech, as i have applied semi skilled with 9 years experience; having said that, is there a QL4? Is it the Intermediate Care Paramedic? Is QL5 like an Advanced Care Paramedic? My understanding is that a QL6 trained medic is a PA, formerly 6b medic, but i need some clarification on this stuff and the recruiters seem to just blow off these questions, or honestly just don't know. Even the medic i spoke with seemed unintersted in answering my questions. She did say that she was straight out of PCP school, so maybe this had something to do with it.

     If any of you have applied semi skilled in the past, what rank did you get to begin with. My recruiter said that there is a huge shortage of Medics, especially semi skilled applicants, so my contract will have more room for flexibility. He said i will most likely be starting at a P3, make CPL within a year and SGT by the end of my first contract of 6 years, but there is the possibility of starting at a CPL level. What has been the experience of other semi skilled applicants? I was also told there is currently a $10000 signing bonus, but this changes often.

     I have also been accepted to the ICP in SK for the full time January intake; would it be a better plan to delay my CF start date and take the ICP first? Basically, will it change my contract to begin with for the better? I was told that i would be considered very competitive after i wrapped up my interview, and may be in as soon as Jan 2009, but most likely March.

     Could someone on here give me information on what some of the skills are a PA can do? I'm looking for specifics like intubation, ACLS, Pharmacology etc. All i ever here is that they are like an ACP with a few more skills, but nothing specific. I have called and researched this to death and get no answers, so anything is appreciated.


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## PMedMoe (5 Dec 2008)

Sometimes, information is hard to come by or is undergoing change.  Perhaps the people you talked to weren't "uninterested" in talking to you or answering your questions, maybe they just didn't want to give you false information.

When I was a Medic, I knew of a guy who was Paramedic qualified and was told at the recruiting centre that he might get a QL3 bypass.  He didn't.  Most people I know who started at a higher pay level, did so because they had previous *military* experience, not trade experience.

You may be able to bypass the PCP but don't quote me on that.  As far as PA training, etc, you will not get that until you are a Sgt and eligible for promotion to WO, so you're looking at quite a few years in before you're even thinking about that kind of training.

As far as the signing bonus, Med Tech has been listed as an understrength trade in CANFORGEN 146/08* but it also states:



> NOTE THAT MERE POSSESSION OF A CERTAIN TRADE OR ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT AN APPLICANT MEETS CF REQUIREMENTS. EACH APPLICANT FILE WILL BE REVIEWED TO DETERMINE CURRENCY OF THE PERTINENT SKILLS OR ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS AND COMPETENCY.



Allowances are listed here: CBI 205* *You must meet all the requirements*.

*Note - these links may not be accessible from the Internet.


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## Unglunk (5 Dec 2008)

Solid points.

     I should have given more detail about why he mentioned the QL3 bypass; he said there were only certain provinces that offered courses that they accepted, PEI  P-1, NS PCP, SK PCP, AB EMT-P, BC PCP and i took the SK course which is CMA accredited. He did mention that i would only bypass the PCP end of things and not the other half, but said there were no guarantees until you had your contract in front of you.

     Thats some good info on the SGT to WO promation before your PA because this guy made it sound like you got your SGT promotion and basically got shot in to this course. So no QL4? QL5 is like your ICP then?

     My big worry is that i'm not going to be offerred any aditional medical training for many years, or will prior experience help speed this along? I read that you typically have to have 18 months in as a QL3 before receiving additional training which doesn't have me super fired up. I do realize there is other aspects to the job besides the medical end, especially in the military. 

     I was unable to open the info on signing bonuses, but i'll dig some more.


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## Civvymedic (5 Dec 2008)

I applied last Fall as a Semi-Skilled Med-Tech (Regular Force), was told initially that I would also get acting Cpl upon completion of BMQ, PCP bypass, and some QL3 written off.

I am in ACP in Ontario with 10 years of High volume experience. ER experience (clinical) and teaching at the College level. When the offer came down it was Private with no rank incentive or signing bonus. PCP However was written off.

The Med-Tech trade is way more than just what we do out there as Paramedics in the transport enviornment.

I also applied for Sar-Tech but in the end at this point in my life felt the pay cut was too much. Wish I would have applied when I was younger.

Good luck!


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## Unglunk (5 Dec 2008)

Thats very good info.

     Even as an ACP and instructing, you didn't even receive a P3 entrance rank? That worries me. I'm 31 with 3 kids and an ex wife and simply can't live on the starting pay of $30000 a year. A P3 now makes $3096 a month which puts you in that $45000 a year wage, so still a pay cut, but manageable with the other unwritten perks. A starting PCP in SK(full time) will make $50000, so a little behind, but i have heard of things like Post living differential, base housing etc that make up for the gap a little, and in the end you're doing better.

     I was surprisd to hear a SAR TECH only starts at $56000. Thats a seriously elite job requiring very unique and talented individuals. On the flip side of that, it sounds insanely cool!

     The recruiter last year actually asked me if i knew any nurses and said they would be given a competitive wage of $50000 to start. I felt bad, but felt i should point out that $50000 was not remotely competitive, and that some nurses in Ontario made 6 figure incomes; she was floored and couldn't believe this.

     Before anyone says it, i realize it's not about the money; having said that, a person like myself still needs a certain income, or things just don't work. I'll wait and see what i'm offerred and go from there.


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## MAC- (5 Dec 2008)

From my experience, do not believe what CFRC tells you, they are sometimes out of date with current information. I was a reservist that did a component transfer (Pres - REGS) to MED TECH. I was in the reserves for 3 yrs, and qualified as an enigineer. My contract ended up being 6 yrs, with a pay incentive to cover my PCP school (roughly 7500 for Ontraio), bypass JIBC but have to do Borden QL3 training. Pay rate stayed at P.3 which is more in the regs. Start off as no-hook.

The only reason I got this was because of previous military experience. I was informed that incentives and semi-skilled will only apply for previous mil exp and that ACP/CCP training does not matter. I was also told to forget everything I learnt in school because they will teach me there way.

Hope this helps, don't get your hopes up.


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## Civvymedic (5 Dec 2008)

Mac's info sounds about right. I wish I could make the move as well but after paying for college twice and living on $40.00 an hour (more than alot of RN's) here as a Paramedic it's a hard switch to make. 

I would definately take a pay cut to join the CF but Cpl was about it dollar wise for me I simply cant afford 30k a year.

Funny though the CF had a recruiting booth at a Paramedic conference in Toronto and that was my first contact with them and were looking for experienced Paramedics...but as I found out no rank incentive. No P3 either FYI. Although if you have a Police Sciences Diploma, or some Police experience or Semi-Skilled in some other trades even without prior military experience you are offered a better pay rate/acting rank. So why not the Health Services branch if they are out looking for Medics?

I would think that experience especially in high acuity health care would be as important as tech and policing especially when they need medics, but I dont have the big picture.

SAR-Tech looks awesome but same wage until you reach Cpl. I was offered that as well until I found out that there was no rank incentive.

I believed there would be a rank incentive the whole way through right up until I got my offer for both SAR and Med-Tech. Very dissapointed especially considering that the SAR-Tech medicals were like a F/T job for me this summer and at my own expense......

I hope it works for you.............


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## Unglunk (5 Dec 2008)

Wow, i'm really not expecting this offer to be anything that i was told, hope i'm i'm wrong.

     I have an interview on Monday for a really good job for an industrial company that i wasn't taking very seriously; i think i may want to look the option until i hear something better from the military.

     Thanks again guys. If i had my ACP, i would look at Ottawa, sounds like a deadly place to work with all sorts of perks.


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## Civvymedic (5 Dec 2008)

BC is a great place to work as a medic right now and so is Nova Scotia. You can get in on a great opportunity right now in NB as they just went Provincial and are hiring PCP's.

Ottawa is great! and with a bit of OT your looking at a six figure income potentially............


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## Armymedic (5 Dec 2008)

Unglunk said:
			
		

> Could someone on here give me information on what some of the skills are a PA can do? I'm looking for specifics like intubation, ACLS, Pharmacology etc. All i ever here is that they are like an ACP with a few more skills, but nothing specific. I have called and researched this to death and get no answers, so anything is appreciated.



I have been in too long to know what the procedures are for what you actually need to do to get in. What I do know is that they will make you do a prior learning assessment. From that the best they will give you is Cpl at pay level 1, and have you do the non PCP portions of the QL 3 course.

As for the rest, there is much more to being a QL 5 medic than the prehospital care stuff.

As for the PA level of training...it will take you approx 10 years (a min of 8 ) to become a Sgt and then you'll generally wait 12-24 months as a Sgt until you are loaded on the PA course. Mind you all this might change in the next 2-5 years once PA graduates (like yours truly) graduate with a BSc from Univ of Nebraska, and subsequently become officers. Then the course loading procedures will change and career progression for 737 med tech will go from Pte to CWO. But this is WAAAAYYYY off in the future.


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## Armymedic (5 Dec 2008)

Further to last...

there are 2 pilot PA programs. I believe they are our of UoT and Western. I am not sure of the entrance reqs. What I do know they mimic the CFMSS course as that is the academic standard in Canada right now.


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## Unglunk (5 Dec 2008)

Thanks for the response.

     I do realize there is more to the job as a PA, then prehospital care, but just wondered what sort of skills were included in the prehospital care aspect of being a PA; it sounds like you're a great person to ask, so any info on that is gold to me. My understanding was, in a lot of cases, you guys fill in for Docs in a clinic type of environment when the need arises, so your prehospital knowledge base has to be huge. I have an advanced Care Paramedic friend who says he would love to take a PA course if he can make it work, and speaks volumes about your profession.

     One thing that surprised me was the SGT taking 8 years from the rank of CPL; the guy who interviewed me said that assuming i start as a P3 or CPL, i should make SGTjust before the end of my first contract(6 years), which did make sense when i looked at the rate you generally get promoted on the pay scale i found. i'm pretty out of the loop, so just digging here. A lot of variables to consider it seems.


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## The_Falcon (5 Dec 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> Further to last...
> 
> there are 2 pilot PA programs. I believe they are our of UoT and Western. I am not sure of the entrance reqs. What I do know they mimic the CFMSS course as that is the academic standard in Canada right now.



And McMaster, and one other out west.


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## Armymedic (5 Dec 2008)

Which is the university in Hamilton? Its that one and TO as far as I know...U of M did not get theirs to go if my info is correct.


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## The_Falcon (5 Dec 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> Which is the university in Hamilton? Its that one and TO as far as I know...U of M did not get theirs to go if my info is correct.



Yes Mac is in the Hammer.


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## Blackadder1916 (6 Dec 2008)

McMaster University - Physician Assistant Education Program


> Program Design
> The PA Education Program is a two year course of study delivered over a 24 month period beginning in September.  Year 1 will consist of clinical science courses delivered in the first twelve months.  Year 2 will consist of clinical training delivered in the consecutive 12 month period.
> 
> Certification
> ...



University of Manitoba - Physician Assistant Education Program (PAEP)


> Mission Statement
> 
> The University of Manitoba Physician Assistant Education Program aims to educate individuals to become outstanding Physician Assistant clinicians, to advance the academic field of the profession, and to foster PA leaders who will both serve their communities as well as advance the physician assistant profession in Manitoba and Canada.
> 
> ...


 

University of Toronto - Physican Assistant Education Program FAQ


> 4. What credential will I receive from this PA Education program?
> The Physician Assistant Education Program is a 2 year, second - entry baccalaureate degree program offered in partnership with University of Toronto Faculty of Medicine, Northern Ontario School of Medicine (NOSM) and the Michener Institute for Applied Health Sciences (Michener). The Program is currently under development. It is proposed that graduates of the program will receive a BSc (PA) bachelor’s degree from the University of Toronto. It is expected that the curriculum will be accredited by the Canadian Medical Association.  Graduates will also be prepared and eligible to write the Canadian certification entrance to practice exam offered by PACC.
> 
> 5. When will the Program start?
> ...


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## Armymedic (6 Dec 2008)

As I said before, if the info I heard is correct. The 2 Ontario universities are running the program this year on a interim/pilot basis. Neither have more than a dozen students. But with the Health Ont initiative next year looking for PAs.... you never know what the future will hold.


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## Adam (6 Dec 2008)

Info from the QL 5/6a Med tech conference in Halifax this September:  PCP entering the forces are eligible for a signing Bonus of $10000 (My memo is in).
                                                                                                     Spec 1 pay for all PCP Med Techs, Spec 2 for 6A/6B.
                                                                                                     Reimbursement for AEMCA certification.


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## Armymedic (6 Dec 2008)

Adam said:
			
		

> Spec 1 pay for all PCP Med Techs, Spec 2 for 6A/6B.



Good rumour....but spec pay would be for all med techs. They can not limit it to a civilian equivalence not offered to all soldiers.

It is all still yet awaiting approval.


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## Adam (6 Dec 2008)

PCP is now a requirement for Med techs.  I haven't seen anything regarding Spec Pay on paper but I was told January.


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## Unglunk (6 Dec 2008)

Wow guys, interesting stuff and a lot to think about.

     Adam, you mentioned spec 1 pay as of Sept; Since the PCP is a requirement now, not overly new, will this starting contract of P3/ CPL most likely stand in your opinion, or do you think i'm hearing a lot of things that aren't goiong to happen. I'm hoping you got some new insight at the conferance you mentioned.


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## Armymedic (6 Dec 2008)

You were told wrong. 

There is a Sgt in the PA class at school who said he was first told med techs were going to get spec pay when he was on his QL 3 course 22 years ago.

Believe it when you see it on the CANFORGEN.


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## Armymedic (6 Dec 2008)

Unglunk,

Ptes do not get spec pay. 

The conference was an update of things trying to get done...not things that are going to happen.


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## MedCorps (8 Dec 2008)

I can provide some additional guidance on this issue. 

QL3 (Apprentice) Med Tech is a three "part" qualification. 

I - The Clinical Care part (anatomy, physiology, basic nursing care, casting and a continued indoctrination into the military life as a basic training list candidate).  

II - The Emergent Care part.  This is the PCP qualification contracted to an accredited civilian college.  In the case of English speakers it is currently the Justice Institute of British Colombia. 

III - The Field Operations part.  This teaching you how to work as a member in a field medical unit.  

It is somewhat common to find people with civilian paramedic qualifications to being given a PLA bypass (Prior Learning Assessment) for Phase II.  It is rare to see Phase I and/or III given a PLA bypass.

The QL4 Med Tech course does not exist in the Regular Force.  

The QL5A (Journeyman) Med Tech program is also a three "part" qualification.  Students are returning to the Canadian Forces Medical Services School 18-36 months after completing the QL3 program.  

I - The Clinical Care part (medical patho-physiology [common conditions], clinic medicine, suturing, more nursing skills such as IV medications).

II - The Emergent Care part.  This is currently not being offered but will be in the near'ish future.  There was some thought for quite a long period of time that is was going to be the ACP civilian qualification.  Now that does not look like it will be the case as we are going in a different direction.  I cannot comment much on it as I am not sure what is releasable in the public forum. There is still the thought that this part will be provided by a civilian college provider.   

III - The Field Operations part.  This teaching you how to work as a field medical detachment commander.  

I have never seen someone with only civilian medical qualifications given a PLA for QL5A.  After your QL5A the next step (if you demonstrate leadership potential) is the Primary Leadership Qualification.  This is a non-medical service common qualification and a PLA will not happen for any medical qualification you come to the table with.  

QL6A qualification is currently (but subject to change) a short (2 week) course in medical administration.  It is aimed at the Master Corporal and teaches topics such as medical finance, medical estimates, total quality management, medical regulating, medical supply, etc. 

The QL6B qualification is the Physician Assistant course. One must be a Sergeant prior to being nominated for this course. Prairie Dog is right on the mark with respect to time lines for career progression to be eligible for this qualification. 

So there you go.  No comments on pay rates.  Entry as a Cpl seems to be more of a myth than a reality (I have seen a few of Privates told they will get it as they were semi-skilled, but are never offered it).  This could be changing however due to the fact Med Tech (737) is now in the red for numbers.  I have never seen a civilian ACP paramedic (or PCP) paramedic without prior military service given a PLA bypass for QL3 or QL5A.  

I hope that is of some help.  It is important to remember that the Medical Technician is not a civilian paramedic.  They are two different beasts with only a somewhat limited overlap in job or skill set.  

Cheers, 

MC


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## Unglunk (8 Dec 2008)

That does clear up a few things for me, much appreciated.

     Just out of pure curiosity, what would happen if someone took the civilian Physicians assisstant course and then applied to the CF? Has this ever occured? I suspect not, since it's a fairly new program outside of the military, but thought i would ask.


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## Armymedic (8 Dec 2008)

Good question. And one the CF has yet to answer. One thing for sure, they will not come into the Reg Force directly as WOs.

And it will not happen until after July 2010, earliest.

But the good bet, as the number of civvie PAs will be small (less than 20), that they will earn significantly more than military PAs, and the number of opportunites for them in Ontario, let alone the rest of the country, is that even if they were "interested", there is no good incentive for any of them to join up.


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## Dark Chivalry (10 Dec 2008)

It's worth pointing out that given the entry requirements at the CivU PA courses, joining as a Sgt or WO wouldn't make much sense to an applicant.  If I was required to do 2-4 years of post-secondary education before even getting into the PA program, I'd be looking at DEO, or CF-sponsored MOTP.  I think Prairie Dog is correct in assuming Civ PAs would have little incentive to join up.  Going up the ranks and becoming a PA would be a more natural transition.

I would not be surprised if the CF sees a major overhaul to their medical structure in the near future, especially with PAs rolling out.  Major urban centres are now frothing at the mouth to see more ACPs fill the ranks.  It is my humble prediction that PCPs will not exist a decade from now in the civilian world...ACP will become the standard.  I speak mostly of Ontario services, who are currently hiring p/t PCPs with no guarantee of f/t unless they work for 2 years continuous.  There are such things as f/t PCP for sure, but ACP is the direction most services are trying to push their staff to attain (either by themselves, or through sponsorship).  Some services sponsor their own PCPs through ACP training, so obviously that is the direction they'd like to see their staff go.

Anyway, not looking to kick the hornet's nest here on what SHOULD be done, but I'd say if the CF wants to keep Med Techs (or potential civ applicants) interested, mirroring the civilian world closely is the way to go.  Just look at MPs getting Cpl rank at BMQ grad - a move to make the trade more comparable to the civ trade.  When I took my AEMCA, I wrote it with a few Med Techs who were itching to get certified in ON, then leave the Forces.  The medical sector is exploding, and inventing all sorts of new jobs and qualifications that the CF would do well to try and recruit, Registered Respiratory Therapists come to mind, as they are essentially ER personnel specializing in life support, but aren't quite nurses or paramedics, nor PAs.

Can someone flesh out the comparison between Civ medics (PCP) and Med Techs?  I'll break down PCPs for reference:

- CPR level C (infant, child, adult)
- First Aid cert. (I'll just lump all bandaging and maintaining sterility here)
- BVM and resp. assistance
- spinal (board, collar, Kendrick Extrication Device [KED] in some services)
- MAST pants
- 4 lead ECG (some services allow 12 lead but NO INTERPRETATION) *Ottawa has a pilot study where PCPs can look for STEMI and bypass ER to go directly to the local Heart Institute
- Nasal and oral airway (some services have combitube or LMAs...anything short of full intubation with the Miller blade)
- medication (this area is tricky as it varies from service to service...I'll just list a few with the caveat that some are not used, where they are elsewhere)
---- ventolin by spacer, BVM, or humidified air
---- O2 (any percentage) by nasal, simple mask, venturi hi-flo, BV, etc.
---- ASA 81mg
---- Narcan
---- Epinephrine SC or IM
---- Benadryl
---- Nitro
---- Nitrous Oxide gas
---- * IV endorsement is possible with some services, however there are drastic differences on what can be delivered.  Some services don't allow PCPs to start IVs, just maintain them, others allow IV starts but saline only, or D5W
---- glucagon
---- glucose gel
---- semi-automated defibillation

Please compare that to MTs...I can see right away that MTs get casting training, which would never be a paramedic job.

Also, ACP cert. through the CF is a pipe dream in my opinion...it will just never happen.  ACP training covers so much more on the care of infants and  children, cardiac conditions, and various other skills that are more geared to a civilian setting.  Skill stagnation would be quite high at the ACP level if MTs were expected to maintain the civilian standards...which require regular recertification.

The end result is two careers with different aims and skills attached to them, and a medical field having a bit of an identity crisis as it grows exponentially for different reasons in and out of the CF.


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## MedCorps (10 Dec 2008)

It is important to remember that the fully qualified (QL5A) Regular Force Med Tech _is_ a Primary Care Paramedic in either BC or Quebec.  On top of the civilian pre-hospital para-medicine skill set they also get a healthy dose of practical ward nursing skills (akin to a RPN), clinical medicine skills (in order to conduct and assist in sick parade medicine, which is akin to the walk in clinic) and military medicine.  

They also find themselves on occasion doing other medical type work like pharmacy technician, physiotherapy assistant, wilderness paramedic (remote and isolated para-medicine), helicopter evacuations (only limitation the Med Tech as is with respect to fixed wing aircraft, this requires additional training).

Here is a quick outline from memory for the QL5A Med Tech with TCCC: 

Pre-hospital and military medical skills: 

Airway:  OPA, NPA, Combitube 
Breathing: BVM, O2, Suction, Needle Decompression
Circulation: IV's, Dressings, Hemostatic Agents, Tourniquets, CPR Level C, AED, 3 Lead EKG 
Bones: Board, Collar, KED, traction splint, SAM Splint 

Clinic / Ward Medicine: 

12 Lead EKG
IV Meds set up / maintain and administer under direction (Secondary Line) 
Urinary Catheters 
Basic Casting 
Patient Hygiene 
Dressing changes, wound irrigation and packing 
Admit / Discharge Patient / Prep and Receive Patient from OR
Teaching Crutches and canes 
Flushing ears 
Basic Suturing 
ID / SQ / IM injections 

Meds that can be given if they pass the OTC exam: 
(this varies, I might have an older version [2004] of the list, but it looks close): 

Emergency Meds: 

ASA
D5W IV
Dextrose Injection 
Benadryl 
Epinephrine 
Glucose Gel 
Oxygen 
N/S IV 

Clinic Meds: 

Tylenol 
ASA 
Gaviscon 
Burrow's Solution 
Burosol Otic
Maalox Plus 
Diovol Plus 
Polysporin Ophth / Otic 
Polysporin Topical 
Oragel 
Benzoin Tincture 
Benzoyl Peroxide Gel 
Bisacodyl 
Pepto-Bismol 
Dimetapp Cold Syrup 
Calamine Lotion 
Reactine 
Chlorhexidine 
Clotrimazole 
Collodion Flexible 
Surgical Scrub 
D5W
Dubucaine 
Gravol (Oral and IM)
Benadryl 
Dimethylpolysiloxane Cream 
Gastrolyte 
Aquatain 
Allegra 
Novo-Fibre 
Fluorescein Sodium Ophth Strip 
Glycerin Supp 
Hemorrhoidal Ointment 
Hydrogen Peroxide 
Isopto Tears 
Ibuprofen 
Isopropyl Alcohol 
Lidocaine 1% (with Epi and without) 
Lidocaine Jelly 
Lindaine 
Immodium 
Claritin 
Epsom Salts 
Bonamine 
Mineral Oil 
Multivitamin 
Mupriocin Oint 
Nicotine Gum and Transdermal 
Eyestream 
Norflex 
Dristan 
Nix 
Providone Iodine 
Promethazine HCl (oral and injection) 
Sudafed 
Salicyclic Acid (Duofilm and Soluver Plus and Sebcur) 
Scopolamine Transdermal 
Versel 
Silver Nitrate 
Dakin 
Actifed 
Zinc Oxide 

Military Meds (these fall under various directives): 

Morphine 
Narcan 
Fentanyl Lozenge
Atropine and HI-6 for IM Injection 
Valium for IM Injection 
Reactive Skin Decontamination Lotion 

Again... this is not all encompassing, but is an overview.  I hope it helps to clear up the civilian paramedic versus the CF Medical Technician.  

Cheers 

MC


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## Armymedic (10 Dec 2008)

MC,
you missed probably the most important skills of a QL 5 medic: introductory history taking, physical exam skills and clinical impression judgements. All basic skills that are taught to a QL 5 that are part of more advance skills further developed on the PA course.


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## MedCorps (11 Dec 2008)

PD, 

Agreed, I guess I just took those things for granted (which I should not have, especially seeing how much time we spend training Med Techs in these critical skills). 

It really is hard to articulate everything the multi-faceted Med Tech does. 

Cheers, 

MC


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## Dark Chivalry (11 Dec 2008)

It looks like Med Techs are trained in a lot more on the RPN/clinic/hospital care end of things.

PCPs in the civilian setting encounter so much variation in what they are permitted to do across the country.  CMA-approved courses are not required to be PCPs in all provinces, ON being one.  This means training levels can be higher or lower than the CMA marker.

I got significant focus and evaluation on history taking, and reporting to accepting hospital staff, physical exams, and clinical judgment calls known as a "working diagnosis" (because a "diagnosis" is a medical act, and is left to the MD even if it's obviously going to be the same thing  )

I think the CF has the decisive advantage of more standardized training.  I know PCPs working with partners that couldn't take a patient history, or make a judgment call based on patient presentation.  This might not be their fault, as some provinces don't need the CMA stamp, and some programs don't provide essential training, just because CMA doesn't require it.

It's good to see that switching my career to fall under the CF would be a significant skill upgrade, and more responsibility.  Needle decompression alone is huge.  If a pt has a pneumo/hemothorax a PCP in the civ world would just "drive faster" or call for ACP backup if it's available.  I've never heard of PCPs being allowed to do a procedure that invasive.

How about full intubation?  Is that an available skill, perhaps at the PA level?  Or is that left to RNs?

One of the better instructors at my school repeatedly said "we are training you to be clinicians, NOT technicians".  With respect to the list of clinic meds, and wide breadth of duties Medical Technicians have, I'd say their job title isn't doing them justice.


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## medicineman (11 Dec 2008)

Dark Chivalry said:
			
		

> It looks like Med Techs are trained in a lot more on the RPN/clinic/hospital care end of things.
> 
> How about full intubation?  Is that an available skill, perhaps at the PA level?  Or is that left to RNs?



To the first statement, the scope of practice of a Med Tech isn't limited to the point of injury/transport to definitive care - depending on where they work, they're also primary care providers, so they need that extra training.

And yes, PA's intubate.  Not overly sure about the RN's though, save the NP's.

MM


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## MedCorps (11 Dec 2008)

And to think Medical Technician is the new title. Not all that long ago the title was Medical Assistant.  The MOC has come along way and is still moving forward with AEC (Advanced Emergency Care) that will be added to the QL5A course, the expansion of the QL6A course and the allowance for trade progression to Med Tech Warrant Officer / Master Warrant Officer once the PA MOC becomes commissioned all being in the works at various progress levels.   

Nursing Officers (RN's) can intubate, training, location and situation dependent. Truth of the matter most cannot maintain the skill (due to the lack of OR time available doing the procedure under supervision) even when they are trained in it.  That being said, I know of no Nursing Officer who can do rapid sequence intubation vice PA where (someone correct me if I am wrong) is a taught and required skill.

Needle Decompression - well it is a skill that is required at the lowest levels (in fact, the CF even trains non-clinicians, like Infantrymen, to do this skill) due to the fact that blast injuries necessitate it's performance in a timely manner.  There is good research (as well as anecdotes) to support this, in that 21% of severe but survivable battle casualties die from a pnuemothorax.  This often happens in the second mode of the trimodal death distribution (a few minutes to six hours) and hence requires treatment very far forward by anyone who is brave enough to attempt it and who has the required training.  

<edit to add>: Both of our PCP programs are CMA accredited.  

Cheers, 

MC


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## ModlrMike (12 Dec 2008)

RSI involves the use of paralytics, and as such, PAs can not do RSI. PAs can intubate using Fentanyl and Midazolam as the induction agents, but no Succinylcholine, Etomidate or similar agent.


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## Snakedoc (14 Dec 2008)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> once the PA MOC becomes commissioned all being in the works at various progress levels.



I'm curious but is this move seen to be very likely in the CF Health Services community?  Does anyone know if progress has already been made in this transition?


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## Armymedic (14 Dec 2008)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> I'm curious but is this move seen to be very likely in the CF Health Services community?  Does anyone know if progress has already been made in this transition?



The transition is just in the planning stage...2-5 yrs from implementation.


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## Civvymedic (16 Jan 2009)

After Ungluck's post I contacted the CFRC regarding the Med-Tech trade semi-skilled entry and my file. I was told by a great recruiter who has been honest and kept me motivated the whole time that there is/was indeed a Recruiting allowance for Semi-Skilled Med-Tech but no rank incentive yet. 10k after BMQ and then 10K 1 year later. I jumped at it but was told that unfortunately all Med-Tech positions for the fiscal year had been filled???? Now I am waiting for April 1st. It's been over a year now and I passed every step along the way 1st time and was told I did very well on my interview, I'm fit, Experienced Paramedic- ALS in a high volume setting etc. Willing to learn new ways of doing things and want some new challenges. Still hoping to serve alongside you fine people but after a year I'm starting to look around at other options for a career change as I'm looking for something new.

Still hope things work out for me with the CF. Just wanting to update the thread.


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## George Wallace (16 Jan 2009)

This is a serious problem, Recruiting and Retention, and one that is recognized and has many people frustrated but trying on numerous levels of the CF to rectify.


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## Unglunk (17 Jan 2009)

For all of those that are interested in an update, since i initially posted this, i have got some new information. I was merit listed a week ago for a semi skilled Med Tech spot, as they are hoping to have me in for BMQ for March 2009. 

     The Captain i spoke with explained that in the last year A LOT has changed. If your are a PCP, applying semi skilled, from a CMA accredited course on the CF list of accepted schools, you will recieve the following: A $10,000 signing bonus, $5000 on completion of BMQ, and another $5000 at the end of your first year. You will start out as a Private 3rd class on completion of BMQ and will receive back pay for your previous BMQ time. You will receive promotion to CPL in a year, or on completion of QL3, which ever comes first. You will bypass the PCP portion of your QL3 training, but still do the rest of it. 

     I explained that this all sounded very solid, was exactly what i was looking for etc, but i would need this in writing before signing a 6 year contract first; he said he expected no less from me and agreed.

     I would also like to mention that this 6 year contract is worded very poorly. All it means is that the military is willing to employ you for 6 years, but you can leave after 3 years on good terms. People think this means that the applicant can't leave for 6 years. It ALWAYS means that this is the time they are willing to keep you employed.

     I asked why  this  semi skilled entry plan had changed recently, and was told that it makes your starting wage far more comparable to that of a Civvi medic, and that they just weren't getting the semi skilled applicants because of the previous wage. It also makes you "deployable" that much faster, and Med Tech is very understrengthed right now.

     The wage is still not all that close to the Civvi side of things, but is good enough to make due on until you make it through a few years with Post Living diff and PMQ option. It's actually not a bad opportunity now, even for a guy with a family. This is assuming that these facts are accurate. I'll keep you guys posted when i finally see this contract. 

     Hope this shedded some light on things for anyone curious.


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## Nfld Sapper (17 Jan 2009)

Unglunk said:
			
		

> For all of those that are interested in an update, since i initially posted this, i have got some new information. I was merit listed a week ago for a semi skilled Med Tech spot, as they are hoping to have me in for BMQ for March 2009.
> 
> The Captain i spoke with explained that in the last year A LOT has changed. If your are a PCP, applying semi skilled, from a CMA accredited course on the CF list of accepted schools, you will recieve the following: A $10,000 signing bonus, $5000 on completion of BMQ, and another $5000 at the end of your first year. You will start out as a* Private 3rd class * on completion of BMQ and will receive back pay for your previous BMQ time.



The term does not exist. At the end of BMQ you would be Pte (IPC 3) where IPC stands for Incentive Pay Category. You will get and extra 1200 dollars give or take a month more than most of your course mates who would Pte (IPC 1)


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## George Wallace (17 Jan 2009)

I suppose you also crunched the numbers on:

Dental Care;
Medical;
Chances to travel in your employment;
Real Estate Fees, and Movement Costs;
Different Allowances;
Continuous upgrading of your specialized skills;
Tax Free Wages while Deployed; and
Pension Plan.


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## Nfld Sapper (17 Jan 2009)

Nope George, just giving the base pay.


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## Unglunk (17 Jan 2009)

Sorry, i meant to say 3rd year private wage; i have had many people at the recruitng centre just say P3, so i just sort of ran with it out of habbit.

     I would like to mention that there are so many more perks like Gearge listed that have me interested, and wasn't trying to come off money hungry, but for some of us, regardless of how awesome things sound, we simply can't make a starting pay grade of $30,000 work. I have an ex wife and 3 kids, so this is something i have to strongly consider.


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## mariomike (18 Jan 2009)

Parmedics who think the job owes them something more than they owe to it are seldom happy.  
I suspect it is likewise in the CF. 
Here is the story of one of ours who is making his last trip today: 
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/01/18/8060636-sun.html


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## Armymedic (19 Jan 2009)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Parmedics who think the job owes them something more than they owe to it are seldom happy.
> I suspect it is likewise in the CF.



I suspect you are correct...regardless of the type or place of employment.


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## Civvymedic (20 Jan 2009)

Very true, I make great money right now but I am more than happy to take a pay cut and do some time in the CF.


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## mariomike (21 Feb 2009)

Civvymedic said:
			
		

> Very true, I make great money right now <snip>



The Public Sector Salary Disclosure showed one of our ( Toronto EMS ) guys ( not me by a long shot ) made over $208,000 in 2007. The Mayor made $160,000. 
This is a matter of public record:
http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2008/munic08.html
The 2008 list is not yet out.
It should go without saying that job satisfaction, and the employer you work for, is more important than financial reward. I have no regrets, but the job isn't for everyone.


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## Rafterman1 (19 Jul 2010)

Unglunk said:
			
		

> If your are a PCP, applying semi skilled, from a CMA accredited course on the CF list of accepted schools, you will recieve the following: A $10,000 signing bonus, $5000 on completion of BMQ, and another $5000 at the end of your first year. You will start out as a Private 3rd class on completion of BMQ and will receive back pay for your previous BMQ time. You will receive promotion to CPL in a year, or on completion of QL3, which ever comes first.



Is this, which I have quoted still accurate today for a semi-skilled med tech applicant?


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## PMedMoe (19 Jul 2010)

Rafterman1 said:
			
		

> Is this, which I have quoted still accurate today for a semi-skilled med tech applicant?



You'd probably have to check at a recruiting centre as these things change constantly.  From what I understand, the Med Tech trade is closed right now.


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## Great white Hype (19 Jul 2010)

It may still be accurate, however it is still debatable whether it is good for the CF and for the individual. If you are already qualified as a PCP in your province it would be wise to also consider a reservist position and "get your feet wet" with the CF. Being a Med.Tech is not emergent care, and those who have experience with that sort of job often find the pace and scope to be slow and limiting. The reserve route allows for familiarity and eventually the potential to deploy without interfering with your current employment and allowing you to stay current with your skills.


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## Rafterman1 (20 Jul 2010)

Could one work casual or on call shifts for EMS while employed as a Reg Force Med Tech?  Would this be frowned upon?


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## Great white Hype (20 Jul 2010)

Rafterman1 said:
			
		

> Could one work casual or on call shifts for EMS while employed as a Reg Force Med Tech?  Would this be frowned upon?



There are, for the record some bases that have MCSP (maintenance of clinical skills) programs set up with their local EMS providers to enable practicing medical technicians to stay current with their protocols. 

It wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility to work as a casual EMS worker granted that the EMS service doesn't have any expectations of availability. You must remember that serving in the CF is the priority and realistically one should be prepared to deploy at any given time. It would also depend on wether your CO would allow and if the operational tempo of the unit that you are attached to could facilitate your desire to work a PT job.

From experience, it seems very difficult to work a PT job, however I can't say that it cant be done. It would just be alot simpler to do this the other way around. ie. EMS full-time + MedTech Pt.


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## Rafterman1 (20 Jul 2010)

Great White Hype said:
			
		

> There are, for the record some bases that have MCSP (maintenance of clinical skills) programs set up with their local EMS providers to enable practicing medical technicians to stay current with their protocols.



Does the Reg Force member have to get registered under the Provincial body in that province where he is posted to be eligible for the MCSP?  I'm licensed under 2 Provinces; BC & AB.  With that being said, in regards to license maintenance for the 2 im registered in, how would this work so they do not expire while in the Reg Force?


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## mariomike (20 Jul 2010)

Great White Hype said:
			
		

> It wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility to work as a casual EMS worker granted that the EMS service doesn't have any expectations of availability.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> It would just be alot simpler to do this the other way around. ie. EMS full-time + MedTech Pt.



There is the question of Labour Mobility: "While most Canadians can now benefit from full labour mobility, there are a small number of professions for which additional requirements are needed when moving to another province and/or territory.":
http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do?nid=511429

Assuming you are qualified to work in that province, does your local EMS hire part-timers? The city I worked for has never hired, or used, part-timers or casuals. Certainly not since 1933. Everyone is full-time permanent. 

As far as working full-time EMS and the Reserves, because of the shift-work, you may not be available for a lot of evening parades and week-end excercises. Even if you are off, the department frequently calls for "voluntary" overtime. Especially on weekends.  



			
				Great White Hype said:
			
		

> Being a Med.Tech is not emergent care, and those who have experience with that sort of job often find the pace and scope to be slow and limiting.



Good point. 9-1-1 types may feel more at home working the street.
I had to look up the word "emergent". We just say "emergency" ( as in Emergency Medical Service ):
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/emergent.html


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## mariomike (29 Aug 2010)

Rafterman1 said:
			
		

> Does the Reg Force member have to get registered under the Provincial body in that province where he is posted to be eligible for the MCSP?  I'm licensed under 2 Provinces; BC & AB.  With that being said, in regards to license maintenance for the 2 im registered in, how would this work so they do not expire while in the Reg Force?



I saw this today. It seems to be recent.
There is mention of MCSP at the 03:55 mark:
http://www.forces.ca/en/job/medicaltechnician-70

This is from the Province of British Columbia. As you are certified in that province, you may find it of interest:
"Canadian Paramedic Regulators Working Group: Statement of Intent Regarding Labour Mobility for Paramedics":
http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/ema/intent.html

"Currently more than 20 regulatory designations for paramedics exist over the 10 jurisdictions, involving different regulatory approaches and entry-to-practice requirements."

"Regulators confirmed that they would continue to require recent, active practice as a condition of registration."



			
				Rafterman1 said:
			
		

> Could one work casual or on call shifts for EMS while employed as a Reg Force Med Tech?  Would this be frowned upon?



If posted to Ontario ( and if authorized by the CF ), "I am a qualified paramedic in another Province or Territory of Canada. What steps must I take before I can be employed as a paramedic in Ontario?":
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/program/ehs/edu/equiv_qa.html#3

A point to remember is that there is a lot of mandated overtime in EMS. That is, you never know for sure when you will be going off duty, because of last minute calls. They can ( and do ) routinely force end-of-shift overtime on Paramedics. You do not have the right to refuse. ( No problem, we knew that when we hired on. That situation has improved greatly in recent years. )
Under municipal law ( at least in Toronto ), Police, Fire and Paramedics are not considered to be civilians. 
Which is one of the reasons they do not hire part-timers, as this could lead to a potential conflict if you have a commitment to another employer.

From what I understand, finding employment in Ontario is very difficult. Some find work with the private non-emergency transfer companies. Some look for work in remote areas up north, or other parts of Canada:
August 27, 2010
"Ont. paramedics recruited to N.L.":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/08/27/nl-paramedic-hires-827.html?ref=rss

( Interesting comments. )

Toronto EMS ( from Wikipedia ):
"The 'Baby Boom' generation is aging. As it does so, all of those 'boomers' become net consumers of health care, driving up demand for services. Simultaneously, all of those 'boomers' employed by the service in the early 1970s are reaching the end of their careers and retiring. Since subsequent generations are typically much smaller, the service is experiencing difficulty in recruiting suitably trained replacement staff, just as demand for services is increasing."


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## ModlrMike (29 Aug 2010)

Rafterman1 said:
			
		

> Does the Reg Force member have to get registered under the Provincial body in that province where he is posted to be eligible for the MCSP?  I'm licensed under 2 Provinces; BC & AB.  With that being said, in regards to license maintenance for the 2 im registered in, how would this work so they do not expire while in the Reg Force?



I can't speak for other provinces, but in AB you are required to keep your registration up to date. In fact, in order to do on-car MCSP in AB, you have to be registered in AB. The CF puts a great deal of energy, time, and resources into ensuring that RegF MedTechs in AB have the best chance of success at the AB exams. In AB, you can count all of your "green" time towards your patient contact hours, so you'll have well over the requirement. You'll also have to do your the College of Paramedics CME modules, and keep any other qualifications up to date.


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## medicineman (29 Aug 2010)

Ditto for New Brunswick.

MM


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## Rafterman1 (30 Aug 2010)

Thank you for the replies MM, Modlr and Mario.   My registration within BC and AB will knowingly expire due to myself attending BMQ in January.   I will have to re-apply and spend yet more money to get renewed if stationed in either Province.    Or does the Forces cover the cost of PCP/EMT licensing for MCSP (if required to be licensed) in the Province which you are posted to?


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## ModlrMike (30 Aug 2010)

Rafterman1 said:
			
		

> Or does the Forces cover the cost of PCP/EMT licensing for MCSP (if required to be licensed) in the Province which you are posted to?



The last time I did it, yes. Things change however, and it's best to check when you arrive at your posting and have obtained your registration.


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## mariomike (30 Aug 2010)

Rafterman1 said:
			
		

> Thank you for the replies MM, Modlr and Mario.   My registration within BC and AB will knowingly expire due to myself attending BMQ in January.   I will have to re-apply and spend yet more money to get renewed if stationed in either Province.    Or does the Forces cover the cost of PCP/EMT licensing for MCSP (if required to be licensed) in the Province which you are posted to?



Rafterman, you may find this of interest.

"Maintenance of Clinical Skills Program (MCSP)":
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pub/pdf/mcsp-pmcc/man-eng.pdf
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pub/mcsp-pmcc/AnnA-eng.asp
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/pub/mcsp-pmcc/AnnB-eng.asp


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## Rafterman1 (2 Oct 2010)

I've been curious about this for awhile so I shall ask before I put all of the JIBC PCP school things into storage.   What books from the PCP course should I bring with myself to BMQ?  Essentials of Paramedic Care 1&2, The thick Pathophysiology book, theres a few more but cannot recall the names off the top of my head.   And the stethoscope?  Bring it all?


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## Occam (2 Oct 2010)

Do you really want to drag all that stuff to BMQ?  Could you put the texts you want in a box at the front of the storage room, give a key to a trusted friend, and have them ship it to you after you're done BMQ and have a use for it?

Learn to travel light.  Yes, I'm sure the books will be helpful at some point...but you won't need them at BMQ.


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## Armymedic (2 Oct 2010)

The CF will provide you with all the things you need to do your job, including the appropriate books and stethoscope. You need not bring any with you.


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## Rafterman1 (2 Oct 2010)

Ok, Thanks.


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## Rafterman1 (14 Jan 2011)

I received a renewal notice from the Alberta College of Paramedics today asking for $340.00 to renew the EMT license for 2011.  I'm heading off to BMQ tomorrow and my license fee is due no later than 16 Feb.  After that date, theres a late fee of $175.00 and if i wish to reactivate my registration after 16 Feb, there is another $100.00 reinstatement fee.  Should I let this expire or notify the CFRC of this?  I think I may have letter coming from the BC EMALB as well to renew the PCP.


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## Armymedic (14 Jan 2011)

Notify CFRC. 

Personally knowing what I know right now, if you are coming into Reg F, you probably do not need to renew this year, as you may not be posted back to Alberta. Also, after you are trained (i.e. completed your QL 3 and posted) the CF covers professional membership fees under the MCSP program.

But this is my opinion, I do not have any regulations to back this up.


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## Pea (16 Jan 2011)

The issue I've found is that I was licensed in BC upon completion of my PCP. Now I'm posted in Ontario and I asked about challenging the Ontario exam to become licensed here. I was told that the unit will only pay for QL5's to do this. I also haven't received any opportunities for MCSP, and I've been posted for over 2 years now. So now my license in BC has expired and I do not hold any sort of qualification in Ontario. I'd hoped the military would have been more supportive of keeping us Med Tech's licensed so that the training we'd received would be more useful.


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## Armymedic (16 Jan 2011)

Medi brings up a good point; with the emphasis on AEC now for all QL5s and up, it does make more sense, both financially and in the skills, to concentrate the effort (and money) on having the majority of Med Techs maintain their civilian equivalency certificates at that level, remembering that PCP (which is the skill level you finish QL3) is the basic entry-level skill set that you are to advance forward of as you progress through your military career.

Personally for you, Medi, I would not sweat not having an opportunity to do MCSP yet, and I am sure you learned much more about your job in the last year than you would have by refreshing yourself with a month of ride-a-longs. Given the quality of your CSM, I am sure that you will have that MCSP opportunity between now and your QL5 course that will be coming shortly.


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## mariomike (16 Jan 2011)

MediPea said:
			
		

> The issue I've found is that I was licensed in BC upon completion of my PCP. Now I'm posted in Ontario and I asked about challenging the Ontario exam to become licensed here. I was told that the unit will only pay for QL5's to do this. I also haven't received any opportunities for MCSP, and I've been posted for over 2 years now. So now my license in BC has expired and I do not hold any sort of qualification in Ontario. I'd hoped the military would have been more supportive of keeping us Med Tech's licensed so that the training we'd received would be more useful.



On the subject of challenging PCP equivalency in Ontario.

"BACKGROUND INFORMATION:
Reference A is a confirmation letter by the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care, Emergency Health Services Branch, recognizing the CF QL5 Med Tech as meeting the PCP requirements to challenge the AEMCA exam, all QL5 Med Techs are encouraged to prepare for and write this exam with approval through their Chain of Command.  Upon successful completion of this exam, those Med Techs will have access to On-car opportunities to complete their MCSP in Ontario. Med Techs (M) who qualify are also eligible for the writing of the exam.":
http://www.forces.gc.ca/health-sante/hp-ps/mcsp-pmcc/aemca-eng.asp


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## Pea (16 Jan 2011)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Personally for you, Medi, I would not sweat not having an opportunity to do MCSP yet, and I am sure you learned much more about your job in the last year than you would have by refreshing yourself with a month of ride-a-longs. Given the quality of your CSM, I am sure that you will have that MCSP opportunity between now and your QL5 course that will be coming shortly.



I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to deploy as early as I did in my career. I definitely learned more in that 7 month period than many people learn over a period of many years in a civilian hospital. For that I am very grateful.

QL5's are fastly approaching for many of us at the unit. However I've applied to start University in the fall  (Bachelor of Nursing) and am now just waiting on my acceptance so that I can start my Component transfer to the reserves. We'll see where my career takes me after that.


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## Valentine (25 Feb 2011)

Okay, so reading this makes me nervous. 

In May I will be a licensed ACP. I have been in the P Res for three years in the Infantry and have BMQ, SQ, DP1 Infantry, DP2A, Comms and Driver Wheel. I guess I expected to bipass the PCP portion of QL3 and maybe even keep my Cpl rank. I assume I will not have to take reg force BMQ/SQ etc either.

I have posed questions to my unit about switching from P RES Infantry to Reg force Med Tech but was wondering what to expect from you who have gone through the process. 

Right now I believe I need to take the 16 week field training in Bordon. 

If I ever get a transfer will I only be a PCP? That makes my ACP training go to waste if I cannot use those skills in the CF?


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## MedCorps (26 Feb 2011)

The ACP training will not go to waste.  Training never goes to waste if you learned something. 

You will not be using the complete ACP skill set that you have acquired on civi-street in the CF as it was decided sometime ago not to go with a ACP skill set for our Med Techs but rather a skill based solution (AEC) that met our needs the CF (especially in the field) at the QL5A level. 

Again training progression for Med Techs (Reg F) right now is: 

BMQ  (or BMQ-L)
SQ

   - CFB Borden 
QL3 (Clinical Phase, PCP Phase - civilian school, Field Phase) 
   - You are now an "apprentice" Med Tech 
   - Badged to the Canadian Forces Medical Service  
   - First posting to a CFHS Unit 

QL5A (Clinical Phase, AEC Phase - civilian school, Field Phase) 
   - You are now a fully qualified "journeyman Med Tech" 

   - Then if you show leadership potential.
PLQ 
QL6A 
QL6B - Physician Assistant (Phase I - Borden, Phase II - rotations, Phase III - testing) 
ILQ 
ALQ 
CQ 

There are now frequent waivers (based on a the Prior Learning Assessment - PLAR process) for PCP if you hold that qualification on civilian street / are NCM SEP.   

Even with PCP/ACP I suspect strongly that you will have to do the Clinical Phase of the QL3. Much of it will be easy for you as you have seen the material. It is probably not worth the PLAR and you will just have to treat the material you have seen as a nice refresher and a indoctrination to the Medical Service (in fact a total clinical waiver is seldom given unless you were a  Reserve Force Med A / Med Tech).   I encourage you as someone who has time in the CF already and who knows the material to step up to the plate and be a leader in the class helping those that are still struggling with the military aspects of CF life or who are having problems with the material. 

Planning to spend some time in Borden for Clinical and Field Phase is a good ideas.  It might be 16 weeks of instruction (+/- a week or two) but since those Phases are not back to back you might have a pause awhile you wait to join a Field Phase after competing you Clinical Phase. 

As well as trying to have some fun along the way....  there is some movement afoot to chance this "pipeline" but nothing is going to happen in the next year (or two, or three) so do not get too worried. 

Good luck at making the cross over. 

MC


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## Armymedic (26 Feb 2011)

Assuming you are coming in as a Reg F med tech, your skills will not be wasted. You may not be able to fully use them for the first couple years. But once you are QL5, then you will be able to use your full scope, when employed in that role.

Remember though, the pay and benefits you will receive as a CF member will be better than most civilian agencies.

edit to add: In addition to what MC said, once you are in and qualified QL3/5  there are select positions at certain units where a fit, motivated, cbt arms experienced Med Techs will be able to be challenged beyond what most regular Med Techs are able to do.


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## Valentine (26 Feb 2011)

Thanks for the information guys. By clinical time I assume you mean an in hospital rotation versus a clinical class where you learn IV's etc... I will have around 600 in hospital/ambulance clinical hours and re learning skills seems like a waste of time. However, I will do it if i have to! When you say QL3 and QL5 courses what skillset are you tought on these? I searched last night but could not find a breakdown of the courses. I am assuming QL3 is your intro to ivs and meds while QL5 is intubation/chest decompressions etc. And is QL5 when you are deployable?

Lots of questions! These are the ones my unit cannot answer. I am also hopefully taking PLQ Infantry this summer to knock that off the list of things to do.


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## Armymedic (26 Feb 2011)

QL3's have deployed.


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## MedCorps (26 Feb 2011)

By clinical phase I mean clinical class.  This is a blend of classroom and practice labs conducted at the CF Health Services Training Centre in Borden under the guidance of Nursing Officer, Physician Assistants and, most importantly, experienced Sergeant and Master Corporal Medical Technicians.  

If interested I will post what you learn on the QL3 / QL5A when I get time early next week.  I just want to check to make sure that I have the most up to date information. 

You need to remember that being a Med Tech is not all about pre-hospital skills (which I am sure you are quite good at in the civilian world). It is like no occupation in the civilian world, although share characteristics with a bunch of them. It is also about providing nursing-type in-patient care, working as a physiotherapy assistant, providing primary health care in a "walk in clinic", conducting parts of the occupational medical screening (the Periodic Health Examination), working as a pharmacy technician or medical storesman as well as a bunch of other things. The Med Tech really is the "jack of all medical trades" and we use them for everything medical related in the CF less a very few specialized health care clinical sub-occupations (operating room, preventative medicine, laboratory, and diagnostic imaging). 

The clinical phase I spoke of above is based around starting with zero knowledge of being a medical technician and teaching everything from the basic sciences (anatomy, physiology) to nursing skills (care of the patient on a ward), to how to apply a cast, to how to order and pack military medical supplies, to how to chart (soon to include how to use the new CF computerized charting system), to what are our military and clinical exceptions of you as an apprentice Med Tech.  Some of these skills and knowledge is transferable to the pre-hospital environment, some is not.  Again, some of this will clearly be review for you (like when they tell you that a finger is called a digit) but some of this very important keystone information will be new (like how to conduct an audiology examinations using our new computerized system).  

Cheers, 

MC


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## bdcasey916 (26 Feb 2011)

To answer your question in a little more detail.  QL3 is broken down into three phases.  The first is your clinical skills, patient histories, in patient care, learning basic medications, IV's, injectables, wound care and dressing changes and of course A&P.  Your second phase is your PCP at JIBC, of course if you are already qualified PCP or higher and they do a PLA, then you won't have to do that phase.  Your third phase is your field phase, which is kinda old doctrine compared to what we are doing in Afghanistan now.  
QL5 course is more in depth clinical, more detailed exams, creating a treatment plan and making that treatment plan happen.  You also do your OTC exam so you can prescribe certain medications.  As well you learn how to do sick chits and can give a max of 2 days excused duties and up to 7 days I believe of modified duties, as well you learn simple suturing.  Then you do your AEC phase, which is Advanced Emergent Component.  Its basically an ALS paramedic program, minus the major airway managment because we have already learned blind intubation (combitubes) on your 3's, then you go back to Borden and do another field phase
Your major trauma protocols are what you learn on Tacmed, which you take if your deploying.  It deals with major bleeds, airways (NPA's and cric's), respiration issues (needle decompression), IO, antibiotics and pain management and then you learn how to put all these new protocols into effect under fire and under stressful situations (low light, sensory depirved, not being able to move much, wearing all your kit and so on)
And yes QL3's deploy, because I came back from roto 8 and I was and still am a QL3, and as well QL3's can go on ships now, we have one here in Halifax that is actually posted to a ship, but most 3's just get attach posted.  Also, QL3's that are PCP qualifed are now allowed to do the independant tasks (range coverage)
I hope that helps.  If anyone on here is a 5 or knows a bit more, I will step back and let you take over, but I'm just going with what I have from my pre-course package


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## MedCorps (26 Feb 2011)

AEC is not all that close to an ALS paramedic program.  They share some things in common but AEC is military focused are and does not cover much of the material covered on civilian ALS programs.  One notable example is much of the ACLS type pharmacology and skills. These are not taught on the AEC. By completing an ALS program you would not get a PLA for AEC and the opposite is true you would not get a ALS PLA for AEC. 

TacMed will not be around for ever, and I suspect when Afghanistan goes away so will TacMed. Although an excellent program it is not part of the career "pipeline" for a Med Tech and was identified as an Afghanistan pre-deployment training requirement.  The AEC (Advanced Emergency Care) is now covering off many of the skills covered on TacMed (needle decompression and cric's for instance, field antibiotic protocols, etc).  In fact many Med Tech with TacMed claim that AEC almost a complete duplication of the knowledge and skills (not the field conditions) plus some more information. 

The QL3 field component is modernizing. It is slow but moving in the right direction. There are now field scenarios in combat situations, humanitarian interventions, and CBRN conditions.

MC


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## Valentine (26 Feb 2011)

To MedCorp that would be great!

So there are quite a few skills I lack such as suturing, casting and military medical documentation. This is such
a big decision that I keep wondering if I should stay civi side until I gain more experience with a service rather than CT to REG force med tech right now. What do you suggest? 

How long of a wait is there between QL3 and QL5A?


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## MedCorps (26 Feb 2011)

If you want to join I would start the process soonest and continue to work in the mean while.  The recruiting system is not the most speedy of systems and I am told that we are not always hiring. 

More time with a civilian ambulance service will not start the clock on your progression in the CF Medical Service and I do not think the extra time working civilian street will be more beneficial than the same amount of pensionable time that you could have been spending working in the Canadian Forces Medical Service. Don't get me wrong, the civilian experience will be useful, but I think the time you could have been in the military will be more useful. 

Another option might be, assuming your CO is a good sport about it, is that you could work PCP / ACP shifts on weekends to gain civilian prehospital experience (and some extra cash).  I am not sure what part time opportunities look like for civilian paramedics, but it might be an option.  This is especially true if you are marking time for awhile between clinical phase and field phase of your QL3.  

QL3 to QL5 times are variable. The aim is 18 months and it seems to come pretty close to that most of the time.  Service members who have OT'ed from another MOSID that are QL5 qualified already in another MOSID are supposed to have a decrease in time from QL3 to QL5 in order to get them to where they left off quicker. Again is can be variable but this seems to happen.  

I will post the outlines of the two courses early next week.  

MC


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## MedCorps (28 Feb 2011)

As requested: 

QL3 Med Tech 65 days of clinical phase

Basic Anatomy 
Medical Terminology 
Patient Communication Techniques 
Charting 
Code of Ethics 
Medical Law 
Maintain medical records
Manage medical supplies and equipment
Describe the role and organization and traditions of the Canadian Forces Medical Service 

Basic Physical Assessment 
Basic Pathophysiology (medical conditions) 
Basic Psychiatric conditions 

Take Vital Signs 
Perform a 12 Lead EKG 
Operate a Cardiac Monitor / Defibrillator 
Conduct Visual Assessment (Medical Screening)
Conduct Auditory Assessment (Medical Screening) 

Prepare a ward for a patient
Assist with patient mobility on a ward 
Assist the patient with personal hygiene while an in-patient 
Prepare a patient for a meal while and in-patient 
Preparation of patients for in-patient diagnostic procedures
Provide post-operative patient care
Obtain laboratory specimens
Provide post mortem care 

Utilize a Combi-tube and BVM 
Administer Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation 

Aseptic Techniques 
Assist with Minor Surgery 
Prepare and package supplies and equipment for sterilization 
Provide hospital based wound care 
Irrigate a wound 
Pack a wound 
Teach the use of canes and crutches 
Taping and physiotherapy splinting 
Basic casting 
Irrigate an ear 

Administer topical and oral medications 
Administer basic injections 
Start and IV
Obtain a venous blood sample using a Vacutainer 

QL3 Med Tech 8 days of field phase

Describe how the Geneva Convention influences medical care in an operational environment
Provide emergency treatment in a Nuclear, Biological or Chemical (NBC) environment
Describe basic field sanitation measures
Operate field lighting and heating equipment
Assist in setting up a limited Medical Care facility
Prepare casualties for transport by military evacuation means 
Perform medical operational tasks under environmental conditions (NBC, Combat, Disaster, Humanitarian)


QL5 Med Tech - Clinical Phase (53 days) 

Carry out medical administration procedures
Implement medical policies, agreements and understandings

Pharmacology 
Intermediate Anatomy
Intermediate Physiology 
Nursing Care Planning 

Basic suturing 

Conduct a medical screening
Intermediate Physical Assessment  
Dermatology 
Psychiatry 
Ophthalmology 
Otolaryngology
Respirology 
Endocrinology 
Neurology
Cardiology  
Orthopedics 
Urology 
Gastrointestinal Medical Conditions 
Dentistry 
Malnutrition 

Write an OTC prescription 
Prescribe OTC medications 
Administer injection medications 
Administer IV medications 

QL5 Med Tech - Field Phase (15 days) 

Describe hygiene and sanitary standards of CF medical and dental facilities
Recognize hazards of food preparation and food storage facilities
Analyze potable water 
Discuss the principles of chemical biological radiological and nuclear (CBRN) medical response
Provide intermediate medical care of a patient in CBRN environment 
Conduct casualty decontamination drills
Process field medical reports and returns 
Provide medical support during operations
Conduct a field medical facility site recce
Set up a field medical facility
Triage field casualties
Describe naval casualty clearing 



I hope that is of some help, 

MC


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## Valentine (1 Mar 2011)

Thank you for the breakdown of the two courses. It is definitely different than a paramedic's duties and I will keep that in mind when I decide to put in my occupational transfer.  The wait time between courses still worries me. If I do join I would rather be QL5 trained as fast as possible rather than wait it out. When you are posted to a unit/ship are you able to request which unit? For example, if I would like to be posted to a combat arms unit I know I am able to request where I want to go, but do they really take it into account? Or just place you wherever they see fit/need you? When I graduate from ACP school in May my family does not want me to join the Reg force, but I have loved my three years in the reserve infantry so far. So, it's a lot to think about! 

The QL3 and QL5 doesn't look too difficult. On the field training do they incorporate combat situations in the training? I don't mean scenario's such as "you are walking along and an IED goes off." More like, you go into a defensive position/dig trenches, lay wire, have demo platoon's out there as well, and treat your patients in such combat situations?


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## MedCorps (1 Mar 2011)

Wow... lots of questions here.. 

First.  Do not forget that the QL3 Med Tech trg also has the PCP phase and the QL5A trg also has the AEC phase.  This is where you get your pre-hospital expertise on top of the other training indicated.  This makes you the well rounded jack of all trades. 

We all would like to move through the training pipeline as quick as possible. The time from QL3 to QL5  is what it is.  Be happy that you might get fast tracked as you have QL4 / QL5 training in another MOSID.   

Postings.  They will request your posting preferences.  They are considered by all parities involved but do not always work out the way that the member would like them to work out.  It is service requirements first and foremost. The Queen's shilling and all. You can no longer request a posting directly to a combat arms unit.  These Med Tech positions are now staffed as an integral support function by the supporting field ambulance.  So if you want to be the Med Tech with a combat arms formation: 1. Get posted to a field ambulance. 2. Be fit. 3. Place as high as possible on your QL3 / QL5 so that people know you are not a pump when they read your course report 4. Be keen and become noticed at the Fd Amb by your NCO's as being reliable, fit and a competent Med Tech.  5. Be a lifelong learner and keep up clinical skills / courses. 6. Let your NCO's know of your interest for this sort of work. 

QL3 / QL5 not difficult?  It is a personal thing I guess.  I have seen plenty of people fail both courses for a number of reasons. I have seen a good number fail QL3 and not be offered another attempt at taking the course (re-coursed) and OT'ed to another trade or released from the CF altogether.  I have also seen Med Tech candidates / Med Techs burning the midnight oil to study hard for exams. They might argue with your assessment of it not being difficult. So is it difficult... to each their own.  If you work hard, study, work as a team, pay attention to your instructors you will meet the standard and pass.  The one thing that the Canadian Forces Health Service Centre is very good at is taking the keen untrained private and turning them into a competent Medical Technician. 

Field training incorporates combat, humanitarian, disaster, and CBRN situations where the Med Tech candidate is required to provide situational based medical care in a military unique environment. This is evaluated. I don't think you will be laying much wire, but then again I could be wrong as it has been sometime since I have been out in the field as an instructor with a QL3 Med Tech course. 

Good luck with making your choices. 

MC


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## Armymedic (1 Mar 2011)

Time line between QL3-QL5 -> 18 months to 4 years.

QL3 may not seem difficult but people fail off almost every course. If you fail either you may be "fired" from the medical trade (it is more complicated than that, but the end effect would be the same), so people are motivated to ensure they pass... And it is not a cakewalk either.


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## Valentine (3 Mar 2011)

Thank you both for your information. I will talk to my unit about the transfer as soon as possible, as I'm sure it takes forever.  



Valentine


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## Trudel12 (20 Jul 2014)

Hey there, first of all, sorry for my english I am from Quebec Canada. I have a question for you. I just completed my first year out of 3, in quebec to be a paramedic. I am starting my 2nd year in september. 

I am in the process of joining the forces maybe in January (as the next QMB) here in Quebec. Do you think I should definetely apply as unskilled med tech.. or wait in 2 years and apply as a med tech who already have done his paramedic class? In both cases, I need to do my QL3 .. but if I dont finish my school and do my QMB this winter, I will have to wait a year or so to get on next QL3 and then go to New Brunswick or BC to get the paramedic class but its only 3-6 months.. not like my 3 years in Quebec..

So what should I do guys? Complete my degree and re-apply as a med tech? 

I also been told that if I apply unskilled, after  QL3, QL5 I will be able to be paramedic as civilian if one day my mind change.

Thank you!


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## mariomike (20 Jul 2014)

Trudel12 said:
			
		

> I also been told that if I apply unskilled, after  QL3, QL5 I will be able to be paramedic as civilian if one day my mind change.



That is a question your provincial paramedic regulator can answer. 

Provincial Paramedic Regulators
http://paramedic.ca/resources/links/

"Medical Technician to Civilian paramedic?"
http://army.ca/forums/threads/112047/post-1255461#msg1255461

"I am interested in possibly becoming a Medical Technician whether its with the army, Air Force, or Navy, and was wondering if it is possible to work as a Civilian Paramedic once my deployment years are over."


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## Trudel12 (20 Jul 2014)

Thank you Mike!


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## mariomike (20 Jul 2014)

Trudel12 said:
			
		

> Thank you Mike!



You are welcome, and Bonne Chance!


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## CrittersBuggin (20 Aug 2014)

If your already in school just apply for the NCM-SEP program, you'll finish your PCP at a civi school, and do BMQ in the summer (getting paid the whole time). Then you just need to do a few mods of the QL3 course.  Your PCP licence is what let's you work as a paramedic civi side. You can technically work as a civi paramedic after QL3, as long as you can licence in the province you want to work in.  QL5 is no civilian equivalent, but many people think it's equal to ACP.

as for skilled or unskilled. There is no skilled recruitment option for med tech,  PCP is only one section of your QL3. Skilled is more for X-ray or lab techs since the military has no courses for them, they are required to join fully trained and accredited, there's is no QL3 for lab or X-ray tech, they can only joined as skilled.


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## mariomike (21 Aug 2014)

CrittersBuggin said:
			
		

> You can technically work as a civi paramedic after QL3, as long as you can licence in the province you want to work in.



QL5 is required In Ontario.

Instructions for QL5 Med Techs to obtain AEMCA are in the attachment. The MOHLTC requires a minimum of 120 hrs of field placement in Ontario.

"The operator of a land ambulance service shall not employ a person to provide patient care, whether on a full-time or part-time basis, or engage a person to provide patient care as a full-time volunteer, unless the person is a paramedic who, holds the qualifications of an advanced emergency medical care assistant"
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_000257_e.htm#BK3


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## CrittersBuggin (21 Aug 2014)

That reference you are providing is from 2007 it's out of date and requires a rewirte as AEC is no longer, the last course is finishing up out east right now. I'm only a QL3 and initially licensed outside of Ontario. I had no issues transferring my licence, I just had to write a short exam.

Challenging the exam with an expired licence is a whole other deal, and I would think that reference you provided is more geared toward a person with an expired licence, IE most medics.


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## mariomike (21 Aug 2014)

The last time I looked into it was in Aug. 2012. I received this reply from the Toronto Emergency Medical Services Education & Development Unit:

"Back in 2007 the military approached the MOHLTC to accept their QL5 Med Techs if trained at JIBC, to be permitted to challenge the AEMCA. In the past the Ministry has permitted this, but has required an additional of 120 hrs minimum of field placement in Ontario. 

To obtain these hours you could participate in a Med Tech Field Placement Program. Currently there are several Military Med Tech Field Placement Programs that have been implemented across Ontario. This Program offers Med Techs both QL3 and QL5 the opportunity to obtain these 120 hours, in addition to having the ability to be Temporarily Certified to perform Medical Directives consist ( sic ) with that of a Primary Care Paramedic in Ontario while doing their ride alongs. Some services that currently offer this program are: Ottawa, Toronto, Renfrew County, and possibly Simcoe County. There may be a couple other services that offer it as well.

In the past three years we have offered this program to 57 Med Techs. 

The process generally calls for writing the AEMCA in addition to possibly a practical skills test (has been done in the past - but not always depending on qualifications and education)."

Ref:

"Medics requiring to maintain a license"
  https://army.ca/forums/threads/107868.0;nowap


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## CrittersBuggin (21 Aug 2014)

So the guys main question that we both seem to be at odds about is

"after  QL3, QL5 I will be able to be paramedic as civilian if one day my mind change"

The answer is yes / no / maybe

Yes you can be a paramedic civi side if you still hold your licence and are working in that province - that province for new medics who take pcp in the military is New Brunswick. And New Brunswick requires 30 PT contacts a year, and they can be any contact, from seeing someone on sick parade or in the field, so for new medics who attend the training program in Moncton, you can potentially hold a licence for years without actually stepping foot into an ambulance.

No you can't be a paramedic civi side if your licence is expired, you will be required to licence again, possibly take a refresher course. 

Maybe if you hold a licence and can pass the provincial licensing exam in the province you want to work in.

Iv see all that information you are referring to and it's out dated, you need to separate "military" from "civilian" the program that ever medic in the military takes is a "civilian" program and we hold "civilian" licences, so in knowing that, they can follow the same steps civilian medics use to work and licence in other provinces IRT Labour Mobility Provision of the Agreement on Internal Trade.  I did it, and my 450 hours transferred over, i didn't have any issues obtaining an Ontario licence nor has anyone from my course who applied.  I do how ever know that medics in the military who are QL5 and hold no current licence, use the exact steps you are referring to to gain a license in anticipation or release.


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## mariomike (21 Aug 2014)

CrittersBuggin said:
			
		

> I do how ever know that medics in the military who are QL5 and hold no current licence, use the exact steps you are referring to to gain a license in anticipation or release.



I read here "that only 17% of Med Techs had kept their license current".



			
				MedCorps said:
			
		

> It turns out when the Credentials Cell did an audit that only 17% of Med Techs had kept their license current after the initial licensing event in BC or QC during QL3. This came as a surprise to a whole bunch of senior officers.



( I understand "the initial licencing event" is now in New Brunswick. )

Posts, like the one below, indicate some are having difficulty keeping their licence current. 



			
				Adam said:
			
		

> Medics are not maintaining their PCP licence for the same reason that they are not completing their yearly MCSP requirements.  And its not because Med techs lack motivation or drive.
> 
> I have been a Medic for 11 years.  I'm on my 6Th posting, and have been licensed as a PCP in 5 different provinces.  I have spent thousands of dollars trying to maintain a licence but I have finally given up.   11 years in, and I have only had 2 shifts on Amb through the MCSP program.
> 
> ...



( I understand MCSP is now called MCRP. )


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## ScottBet (16 Nov 2015)

Hi Everybody,

I realize this topic has been more-or-less put to rest, but I've found this group to be my best bet at getting a solid, straightforward answer. So here goes:

I applied as a semi-skilled (under the direction of my recruiter) Medical Technician in January, 2015, as I was finishing my PCP course at JIBC. The application process went rather smoothly - aptitude test, medical and interview - for the first few months but I haven't heard much since, aside from a few phone calls I have made to the recruiting centre to check on the status of my application. I had one main question from the beginning of my application; do I need to be a licensed PCP in B.C to gain a position? I had applied in Victoria and was given a few different answers until my interview where my interviewer was very sure to say that NO I did not need to be licensed. As a struggling student at the time, I decided it was safe to save myself $500 for licensing and move on to other endeavours while I waited. Since then, I have moved to Montreal and had my file transferred over. I have had a few recruiting staff tell me that YES I do need to be licensed, and others that I do not (others just really don't know). 

Just under two months ago I called the Montreal recruiting centre to check on my application and was told that everything was finished  - including my PLAR - and that I should now wait to be merit listed.  The catch was that I have applied for 1. Med. Tech. 2. Combat Eng. and 3. Infantry and the recruiter could not say whether I was waiting to be merit listed for Med. Tech. or another position. So, great, I had my answer that I did not need to be licensed, or so I thought. At the end of October I received an e-mail from CFRGPLAR stating that they were to BEGIN my PLAR and required some documents; namely, my Certificate of Completion of PCP, my provincial/national license number, and proof of employment/hours worked in a clinical setting (of which I only have the first). 

So PLEASE, could someone clarify: As an applicant for Semi-Skilled Medical Technician, does the position require a valid license to work as a PCP?

As I completed my course in June, 2015, and I have one year to obtain a license, I will need to make steps to go back to B.C for my licensing exam soon should the CAF require it.


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## mariomike (16 Nov 2015)

ScottBet said:
			
		

> As an applicant for Semi-Skilled Medical Technician, does the position require a valid license to work as a PCP?



This may help,
Medics requiring to maintain a license  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/107868.0/nowap.html

As always, best to contact Recruiting.


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## MedCorps (16 Nov 2015)

Nobody here will be able to give you the definitive CFRC answer... you will need to contact your recruiter to do that. 

What I can tell you is that it was the former two Surgeon General's intent to ensure that all Med Tech, regardless of entry stream were qualified, once, as a PCP in a provincial jurisdiction. It was a credibility issue and showed that our Med Techs, as part of their varied skill set were trained / qualified to the same standard as their civilian counterparts upon the granting of their apprenticeship qualification (QL3). 

It would seem to me, if you are to enter semi-skilled and thus bypass the Canadian Forces Health Services Group PCP training (which is contracted out) where they achieve provincial qualification / license then you would need to come to the table with it on enrollment.  

Again, do not make financial commitments based on an Internet strangers interpretation of vague policy. 

MC


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## ScottBet (20 Nov 2015)

Much thanks to the both of you.

From the link sent by mariomike, it sounds a lot like I will need to get licensed.  I may explore the option of getting licensed either in Ontario, New Brunswick or Nova Scotia as it is much nearer to me than Vancouver; Only time will tell. 

It's interesting - and slightly disheartening - to get so many different answers from CFRC Recruiters.  In Victoria, the answer at the front desk was generally that they did not know (and didn't make an effort to find out), but a Captain there explicitly said that I did not need to be licensed.  Here in Montreal, I have been told that I do, in fact, need to be licensed by two different recruiters.  The other week I went to RMC St-Jean for an open house they were holding to see if I could get answers there.  They had a booth set up at the end of the tour with Regular Force Recruiters present to answer questions and when asked if I needed to be licensed he said that I do not! He was actually sort of looking at me funny as if it were a silly question. 

On the other hand, I can't help but question why CFRGPLAR would contact me asking for my license number and proof of employment.

Does anyone have an inside guy that they think would be able to get a concrete answer? I feel a bit like I'm in the Twilight Zone here..

Quick edit - do you think it possible that the CF would accept me on a sort of conditional basis whereby they send me to get licensed, possibly with the next batch of graduating PCPs?


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## DAA (20 Nov 2015)

Here, let me try and explain this as simply as I can.  If you are applying for Regular Force Medical Technician, in order to be considered as a "Semi-Skilled" applicant, you need to meet the following conditions:

Have a Certificate or diploma from an accredited Primary Care Paramedic program
AND
• A current registration, licence, or certification (active status) to practise as a Paramedic from a Canadian provincial or territorial regulatory authority

AND
• Graduated within the last twenty four (24) months
OR
• Graduated more than twenty four (24) months ago: At least four-hundred and eighty (480) hours of cumulative experience as a Primary Care Paramedic with an emergency medical service within the past twenty-four (24) months

Everyone else, would be considered as "unskilled".  Anyone who presents academic transcripts that could be related to an occupation they are applying for, will normally be subject to the PLAR process.  I'd probably be in your best interests to obtain your licence.


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## mariomike (20 Nov 2015)

ScottBet said:
			
		

> I may explore the option of getting licensed either in Ontario, New Brunswick or Nova Scotia as it is much nearer to me than Vancouver;



To get licenced in Ontario, 

"If a paramedic does not hold license or registration as a Primary Care Paramedic from a recognized province or territory, an application for the Standard Equivalency Process may be submitted",
http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/program/ehs/edu/pcp_equiv.html

Phase 1 – Documentation

Candidates applying for Standard-PCP Equivalency must forward the following documentation to the Education and Patient Care Section of Emergency Health Services Branch :
◾Administrative fee in the amount of $50.00 made payable to the Minister of Finance in the form of a certified cheque or money order. Personal cheques are not accepted 
◾Letter from Ambulance Manager/Supervisor confirming – must be on official letterhead
◾Minimum of 450 hours of Land Ambulance Time
◾Quality of Work and/or Recommendation 
◾Original copy of College Paramedic Certificate
◾Official Educational Transcript(s) – must be on official, secure paper
◾Copy of Course Outlines/Curriculums for the year(s) in which you attended – must include course objectives

Phase 2 - Qualifying Evaluations

Once a candidate successfully completes Phase 1, they must then complete the qualifying evaluations within twenty-four (24) months to determine their knowledge and skills for pre-hospital care in Ontario. These evaluations include :
◾Ontario Medical- Legal Test (Administration Fee: $20.00) 
 This written test is designed to assess the candidate's knowledge of the Ontario Legislative framework as it pertains to the ambulance system roles and responsibilities of a paramedic.
◾Symptom Relief Test (Administration Fee: $20.00) 
 This written test assesses the candidate's knowledge of the Ontario protocols for the delivery of Symptom Relief medications (nitroglycerin, ASA, Ventolin, epinephrine and glucagon). 
◾Semi-Automatic External Defibrillator Test (Administration Fee: $20.00) 
 This written test is designed to assess the candidate's knowledge of the Ontario Standards and protocols for the delivery of semi-automatic external defibrillation. 
◾Patient Care Practical Skills Testing (Administration Fee: $100.00 [$25.00 per component])
 The practical component is scenario based evaluations of common situations that paramedics may encounter in the course of their job. Candidates must successfully complete each of the following scenarios : 
◾Trauma 
◾Medical 
◾Defibrillation 
◾Symptom Relief

Certification

Upon successful completion of Phase 2, the candidate is considered "equivalent" for the purpose of Regulation 257/00, Part III 7. (4) (a), and is eligible to write the MOHLTC Advanced Emergency Medical Care Assistant Theory Examination. The AEMCA Examination is conducted three times per year – every February, June and October.

Candidates who have been deemed equivalent will be provided with a registration package for the AEMCA Theory Examination.

Upon successful completion of the AEMCA Theory Examination, the candidate will be issued an Advanced Emergency Medical Care Assistant certificate.

5. (1) The operator of a land ambulance service shall not employ a person to provide patient care, whether on a full-time or part-time basis, or engage a person to provide patient care as a full-time volunteer, unless the person is a paramedic who, holds the qualifications of an advanced emergency medical care assistant referred to in subsection 7 (4). O. Reg. 229/02, s. 1.

Regarding the possibility of QL5A Med Techs challenging the AEMCA exam, after 120 hours minimum of "ride-along" with preceptor crews in Ontario:
https://army.ca/forums/threads/107868/post-1180343#msg1180343
Reply #2
See attachment below.

_As always_, best to contact Recruiting.


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## mraemedic (12 Dec 2015)

ScottBet said:
			
		

> It's interesting - and slightly disheartening - to get so many different answers from CFRC Recruiters.  In Victoria, the answer at the front desk was generally that they did not know (and didn't make an effort to find out), but a Captain there explicitly said that I did not need to be licensed.
> [...]
> On the other hand, I can't help but question why CFRGPLAR would contact me asking for my license number and proof of employment.



From what I've experienced, since the license is a component of the PLAR only the recruiters/supervisors who are involved in the PLAR stage seem to be aware of it.  I went through the same process of being told that I didn't need it until the PLAR started and then I was contacted directly about it.  From what DAA and cfrgplar have said, your best bet is to get licensed.


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## ScottBet (21 Dec 2015)

Alright I've got some news:

I was contacted by telephone a few weeks ago by CFRC Montreal to conduct a follow-up interview (I assume this is the norm if a certain amount of time has passed since your last).  The interview went well and didn't take too long, though at the end I brought up the question of whether I needed to be licensed or not.  The interviewer on the phone was quick to pull up the "Entry Standards" for Direct Entry as a Semi-Skilled Med-Tech.  Everything was as DAA stated except for one important piece;

You must hold a current registration, licence, or certification (active status) to practise as a Paramedic from a Canadian provincial or territorial regulatory authority

AND....have been working as a primary care paramedic for AT LEAST three months on ambulance.

Right there and then, the interviewer changed my application to "Unskilled" and proceeded to tell me that there was only one position left as an Unskilled Med-Tech for this fiscal year (until April, 2016).  She basically said that I should probably go get licensed, work as a paramedic and then re-apply. So I got myself a licensing date in Victoria for March and was beginning to practice when, just last Thursday, I got another call. 

I got the job as Unskilled Med-Tech.  This means that I will re-do my PCP course, fine, but the way I see it if I could say confidently that I know 80-90% of the material from my first course, I will hopefully know 95-100% of the material the second time around - and that makes one helluva paramedic. 

Start date for BMQ is January 23rd, 2016 if anyone else might be starting then also. 

Cheers guys, thanks for all the help.


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## mariomike (21 Dec 2015)

ScottBet said:
			
		

> The interviewer on the phone was quick to pull up the "Entry Standards" for Direct Entry as a Semi-Skilled Med-Tech.  Everything was as DAA stated except for one important piece;
> 
> You must hold a current registration, licence, or certification (active status) to practise as a Paramedic from a Canadian provincial or territorial regulatory authority
> 
> AND....have been working as a primary care paramedic for AT LEAST three months on ambulance.



If that is the requirement for semi-skilled, I wonder what the requirement is for skilled?

Medical Technician - Unskilled, Semi-skilled, Skilled Application 

Congratulations and good luck, by the way.


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## ModlrMike (21 Dec 2015)

Just remember: two ears, one mouth to be used in that ratio.


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## cadenc (21 Dec 2015)

ScottBet said:
			
		

> Start date for BMQ is January 23rd, 2016 if anyone else might be starting then also.



January 23? That is a Saturday, there are a bunch of us starting on January 25 2016. Maybe we'll see you there.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/121197.0.html


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## MedCorps (21 Dec 2015)

ScottBet said:
			
		

> I got the job as Unskilled Med-Tech.  This means that I will re-do my PCP course, fine, but the way I see it if I could say confidently that I know 80-90% of the material from my first course, I will hopefully know 95-100% of the material the second time around - and that makes one helluva paramedic.



This attitude will serve you well in your career in the RCMS as a Med Tech... good on you!  Remember, you are getting paid this time while going to school whilst concurrently earning pensionable time... it is a pretty good life. Help those that are struggling with you existing expertise as these will be the people you will serve with for the rest of your career as well as be your brother-in-arms in battle. 

Good luck on your training and I hope to see you in the Service after you have badged at the end of QL3.   

MC


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## DAA (21 Dec 2015)

ScottBet said:
			
		

> Alright I've got some news:
> 
> I was contacted by telephone a few weeks ago by CFRC Montreal to conduct a follow-up interview (I assume this is the norm if a certain amount of time has passed since your last).  The interview went well and didn't take too long, though at the end I brought up the question of whether I needed to be licensed or not.  The interviewer on the phone was quick to pull up the "Entry Standards" for Direct Entry as a Semi-Skilled Med-Tech.  Everything was as DAA stated except for one important piece;
> 
> ...



Congrats and good luck at BMQ!   I still say that with a licence, you should be considered as "semi-skilled" provided you graduated within the past 24 months.

The yellow highlighted part above, is news to me and I'm pretty sure that requirement is NOT listed in the entry standards.


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## da1root (21 Dec 2015)

I'm reading the documentation the same as DAA.  

I've been staying in the Ask a CAF Recruiter Section, however I did want to say that I'm one of the 3 (soon to be 4) newly hired Specialist Recruiters for Health Services.
I've sent ScottBet a PM to hopefully assist the file.  

For anyone reading this thread don't hesitate to get in touch with me about Health Service files, right now we're concentrating on MO, Dent, Pharm & SocW but I don't mind helping with other files as well.


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## Shadcom (11 Feb 2016)

i do not have a paramedic course. Do I have to apply to the CAF and a approved paramedic college OR do I just have to apply to the CAF and they will send me to their own college?


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## Shadcom (12 Feb 2016)

I am currently in the application process of joining the CAF. (I am just waiting for my medical to come back from Ottawa.) I do not possess any paramedic courses. My question is: do I have to apply to a approved college as well? OR Will the army send me to a college after basic training? I as not told anything about this by the recruiters.


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## DAA (12 Feb 2016)

Shadcom said:
			
		

> I am currently in the application process of joining the CAF. (I am just waiting for my medical to come back from Ottawa.) I do not possess any paramedic courses. My question is: do I have to apply to a approved college as well? OR Will the army send me to a college after basic training? I as not told anything about this by the recruiters.



If you are applying for Regular Force Medical Technician and don't already possess your Paramedics Licence and if you are fortunate enough to receive an offer of employment, your entry plan will be "Med Tech - Unskilled".  After enrolment in the CF and upon successful completion of your BMQ, part of your occupational training will involve a College program arranged for by the CF.  There is no requirement for you to apply to any College at this time.


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## DAA (12 Feb 2016)

Shadcom said:
			
		

> i do not have a paramedic course. Do I have to apply to the CAF and a approved paramedic college OR do I just have to apply to the CAF and they will send me to their own college?



http://army.ca/forums/threads/122053.0.html


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## Loachman (12 Feb 2016)

Merged - three into one.

Welcome to Army.ca, Shadcom.

Please do some research on this Site before asking questions that have been answered before, often many times. Also, post questions only once, and in the most appropriate thread if one exists.


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## big.guy.for.you (9 Mar 2016)

I was under the impression that "recent graduates" could apply as semi-skilled without ambulance experience. I graduated in July, licensed in September, got the PLAR seal of approval in November, and a job offer in February for semi-skilled.

Fingers crossed everything I learned doesn't leak out of my head by the time I get to Borden.


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## DAA (9 Mar 2016)

big.guy.for.you said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that "recent graduates" could apply as semi-skilled without ambulance experience. I graduated in July, licensed in September, got the PLAR seal of approval in November, and a job offer in February for semi-skilled.
> 
> Fingers crossed everything I learned doesn't leak out of my head by the time I get to Borden.



You are correct and you would be "semi-skilled".  Anyone who graduates within the previous 24 months, does not require the work experience portion but they still need to be licenced.


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## Future Med Tech (14 Jun 2016)

I am in the process of becoming a med tech and I had my interview with a career counselor today. I was told that the prerequisites for the job have changed since I started my application and I now need to complete grade 12 chemistry in order to move forward. The process has already taken over 1 year since I also had to take grade 12 biology. I am wondering at what point in the recruitment process is someone advanced enough that changes in the prerequisites don't apply to them anymore? For example, if I were to start BMQ in a few weeks, would I still have to go back and upgrade my chemistry? As far as I know for the RCMP the prerequisites that recruits are subject to are the ones that were valid the day they started the application process.


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## Andraste (14 Jun 2016)

Hello,

Unfortunately prerequisites (entry standards) for occupations are the sole domain of the occupation and can be changed based on various factors pertinent to the occupation.  If you are in the process of applying and do not have an offer then you will be held to the new ES.  If you were currently enrolled against the old entry standards and on training you would not be held to the new entry standards. 

Andraste


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## Future Med Tech (14 Jun 2016)

Thanks for your input. Makes sense.



			
				Andraste said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Unfortunately prerequisites (entry standards) for occupations are the sole domain of the occupation and can be changed based on various factors pertinent to the occupation.  If you are in the process of applying and do not have an offer then you will be held to the new ES.  If you were currently enrolled against the old entry standards and on training you would not be held to the new entry standards.
> 
> Andraste


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## mariomike (14 May 2018)

Daksto said:
			
		

> I am currently a BC Ambulance employee looking for a contact of a Regular Force Medical Technician to ask some questions. Anyone know anyone that I’d be able to email or call?



Are your questions about joining the Reserves? 

You may find this discussion interesting and informative. Also, a good place to ask questions about the trade,

Medical Technician ( Med Tech )
https://army.ca/forums/threads/28820.125
20 pages.


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## Daksto (16 May 2018)

Thanks for the link and reply, I did this initially from my phone so I didn't notice I was under the "Questions about Joining the Reserves" forum. 

Thanks again for the reply.


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## mariomike (16 May 2018)

Daksto said:
			
		

> Thanks again for the reply.



You are welcome. Good luck.


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## Daksto (17 May 2018)

I am currently a BC Ambulance employee looking for a contact of a Regular Force Medical Technician to ask some questions. Anyone know anyone that I’d be able to email or call?


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## sarahsmom (18 May 2018)

can you not post the questions here and any Reg F medics reading this can then see if they are the right person to answer them?


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## mariomike (18 May 2018)

Daksto said:
			
		

> I am currently a BC Ambulance employee looking for a contact of a Regular Force Medical Technician to ask some questions.



See also,

Medical Technician ( Med Tech ) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/28820.125
20 pages.


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## da1root (24 May 2018)

Daksto said:
			
		

> I am currently a BC Ambulance employee looking for a contact of a Regular Force Medical Technician to ask some questions. Anyone know anyone that I’d be able to email or call?



There are a good handful of Med Tech's on this forum (PRes, Reg Force both serving and retired) and at least 1 Health Services Recruiter (if not more) - best to post your question here and someone will respond


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## Daksto (24 May 2018)

Good idea for sure, 

1. Have you worked in a Provincial service and left it to join the forces as a Reg? Are you happy with that move? Do you still work PT civilian service?

2. Is there training up to a ACP? 

3. Possibilities of even moving up to being a nurse?

Pretty much my t major questions I'd say. I have always wanted to join the forces thinking more seriously about it everyday.


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## mariomike (24 May 2018)

Daksto said:
			
		

> Is there training up to a ACP?





			
				MedCorps said:
			
		

> Agreed, some of the biggest reasons why we only have a 17% maintenance of PCP license rate for Med Techs is operational / training tempo, geographic location of on-car opportunities, local ambulance service pre-requisites for on car rotations, and number of on-car billets available.



Paramedicine is provincially regulated. Requirements and issue of a licence to practice are set by the individual regulators.

In Ontario, to work as a PCP, you must be a licenced AEMCA,



> 5. (1) The operator of a land ambulance service shall not employ a person to provide patient care, whether on a full-time or part-time basis, or engage a person to provide patient care as a full-time volunteer, unless the person is a paramedic who, holds the qualifications of an advanced emergency medical care assistant  ( AEMCA )






> Recognition of QL5A & Challenge of AEMCA exam:
> 
> Reference A is a confirmation letter by the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care, Emergency Health Services Branch, recognizing the CF QL5 Med Tech as meeting the PCP requirements to challenge the AEMCA exam, all QL5 Med Techs are encouraged to prepare for and write this exam with approval through their Chain of Command.  Upon successful completion of this exam, those Med Techs will have access to On-car opportunities to complete their MCSP in Ontario.





			
				Daksto said:
			
		

> Pretty much my t major questions I'd say.



Not to dissuade you from joining. But, if you have any major _financial_  questions,

These are the top municipal earners from last time I checked ( 2016 ). Your earnings will surely be less. But, the potential is there. Notes are the same as above.
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151/post-1482454.html#msg1482454

Regular Force Non-Commissioned Members (NCM) Rates - Monthly Rates (in dollars) after March 2017
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/reg-force-ncm-class-c-rates.page

As always, Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


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## sarahsmom (26 May 2018)

Daksto said:
			
		

> 3. Possibilities of even moving up to being a nurse?



Nursing is a completely different occupation. Being a med tech won't stop you from becoming a nurse, but it also doesn't give you a leg up towards becoming a nurse.    I know an MP who recently became a nurse, as well as master bombardier, and an infanteer. To be a nursing officer, you need a BSc in Nursing. You cannot simply level up or get promoted to Nursing Officer. 
Keep in mind that Nursing officers are mostly administrators and paper pushers. In Canada, they don't get a whole lot of patient contact. On deployment is another story.


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## Jiminito (19 Jul 2018)

Is there a difference in trade responsibility if we apply as an officer or an NCM? 
I hear officers get less hands on work and more admin tasks...is this true?


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## PuckChaser (19 Jul 2018)

Jiminito said:
			
		

> Is there a difference in trade responsibility if we apply as an officer or an NCM?
> I hear officers get less hands on work and more admin tasks...is this true?



Do you mean apply as a Doctor vs a Med Tech?


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## Jiminito (19 Jul 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Do you mean apply as a Doctor vs a Med Tech?



I mean applying to a Medical Assistant Trade as an Officer vs NCM. Is there a difference in work/patient interaction/medical training?
I'm a little confused between Medical Assistant vs Physician Assistant, aren't they essentially the same? I think what I want to apply for is physician assistant.
Thank you.


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## da1root (19 Jul 2018)

Jiminito said:
			
		

> I mean applying to a Medical Assistant Trade as an Officer vs NCM. Is there a difference in work/patient interaction/medical training?
> 
> Thank you.



Medical Assistant is a Primary Reserve NCM occupation only.
This is not an occupation in the Regular Force, and it is not a Officer Occupation.


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## Jiminito (19 Jul 2018)

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> Medical Assistant is a Primary Reserve NCM occupation only.
> This is not an occupation in the Regular Force, and it is not a Officer Occupation.



I see, thank you for the clarification.
Do you know if it is possible to apply for Direct Entry as an Officer to a Med Tech-PA post? Or one must pass a PA program in order to do that?


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## Blackadder1916 (19 Jul 2018)

Jiminito said:
			
		

> I see, thank you for the clarification.
> Do you know if it is possible to apply for Direct Entry as an Officer to a Med Tech-PA post? Or one must pass a PA program in order to do that?



No, it is not possible.  It may be possible in the future, but that may be 10, 15, 20 years down the road.

Here is the typical road to becoming a PA.


http://canadianpa.ca/militarypa/


> How I become a Physician Assistant with the Canadian Armed Forces
> 
> Like the majority of Physician Assistants who are currently serving in the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF), I started my career as a Medical Technician (AKA- Medic) 17 years ago with the Canadian Army. During this time I have been employed as both, a Med-Tech and a Physician Assistant (PA) in various military and civilian settings. While serving in my 12th year as a Medical Technician (Med-Tech), I was given the opportunity to become a Physician Assistant through a CAF meriting system. This system is based on set medical and professional criteria, only those whom have the greatest chances of being successful within the military’s 2 year program are selected. If you decide to take the PA route you go through PA education at the Canadian Forces Health Services Academy (CFHSA) located at Canadian Forces Base (CFB) in Borden, Ontario. Once you have successfully completed the CAF PA program you are required to write the CAPA Certification exam which if you are successful you become a Physician Assistant Officer.


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## Jiminito (20 Jul 2018)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> No, it is not possible.  It may be possible in the future, but that may be 10, 15, 20 years down the road.
> 
> Here is the typical road to becoming a PA.
> 
> ...



Do you think they'll make an exception for foreign trained medical doctors who wish to be re-trained as PA Officers in the CF?


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## Blackadder1916 (20 Jul 2018)

Jiminito said:
			
		

> Do you think they'll make an exception for foreign trained medical doctors who wish to be re-trained as PA Officers in the CF?



No, they won't.

If you want to be a PA, and are an International Medical Graduate (IMG) follow the suggested route and enrol in one of the three civilian PA programmes in Canada.  It won't get you into the CAF as a PA but you can practice as a civilian.

http://canadianpa.ca/img/


> IMGs MAY APPLY TO ALL 3 CANADIAN PA PROGRAMS
> 
> To become a Physician Assistant as an IMG, you must complete an accredited Physician Assistant Program in Canada. IMGs cannot skip or advance past any aspects of the program due to their prior medical education. To complete a PA program successfully, you must complete both the first didactic year and second clinical rotation year, finishing all courses for the program. Luckily, the PA program is approximately only 2 years (~24 months), and if you have completed your undergraduate degree, in addition to your graduate degree and with your health care experience, it is likely you qualify to apply to all 3 civilian PA programs in Canada (Manitoba, University of Toronto, and McMaster).
> 
> ...



Or follow the route that this Med Tech took.
http://espritdecorps.ca/kay/2015/4/7/military-physician-assistants-how-one-medical-technician-is-changing-the-game


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## Jiminito (20 Jul 2018)

Thank you all for such wonderful suggestions. I think corporal for life is an enticing option for me at the moment.


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## Yosh (22 Sep 2018)

I am currently considering a career in the regular forces as a Medical Technician. When I was initially gathering information on the "Jobs Available Today" website, I was happy to see that the Forces could provide a somewhat competitive wage with my civilian job as a paramedic. 

Here is an excerpt from the website I looked at (https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/caf-jobs/career-options/fields-work/health-care/medical-technician.html) :

_The starting salary for a fully-trained Medical Technician is $60,000 per year; however, depending on previous experience and training the starting salary may be higher. Medical Technicians who demonstrate the required ability, dedication and potential are selected for opportunities for career progression, promotion and specialist training, such as Operating Room Technician, Preventive Medicine Technician, Biomedical Electronic Technician or Aero-Medical Technician._

I applied online, set up a testing date, completed my CFAT, and was told that I had excellent results and could continue the application process to be a Med Tech. I was given a piece of paper with the following information:  

_The starting salary for a fully-trained Medical Technician is $49,400 per year; however, depending on previous experience and training the starting salary may be higher. Medical Technicians who demonstrate the required ability, dedication and potential are selected for opportunities for career progression, promotion and specialist training, such as Operating Room Technician, Preventive Medicine Technician, Biomedical Electronic Technician or Aero-Medical Technician. _

The recruiting officer was obviously aware of this discrepancy and tried to explain why the numbers were different, but after taking the sheet home and comparing the language there's clearly no reconciliation of the two statements; at least one of them is wrong. I don't want to discount what the officer told me, but my own colleagues who are in the CF have told me not to believe everything I hear in the recruitment process, and I've seen the same mentioned in various topics on this site. 

So, which number is right? And why the bait and switch if it's the lesser number? I see so much language around honesty and integrity in prospective members in the recruiting process being of the utmost importance, but I'm also evaluating the CF as a potential employer, and this doesn't encourage me. I'm hoping it's just a typo...


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## kratz (22 Sep 2018)

[quote author=Yosh ]
I am currently considering a career in the regular forces as a Medical Technician. 
[/quote]

The difference in numbers is simple.

$40,000 entry level, the day you graduate BMQ
$60,000 by the time you finish all your qualifications.

Simply being a PCP is not enough to jump into the $60,000.


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## PuckChaser (22 Sep 2018)

$60k is what you'll make as a standard pay group Corporal. $49k is what you'll make as a Private. Depending on how much training you need (skilled vs unskilled entry) will determine how close you are to Corporal when you finish training. It's not a bait and switch, it's a complex situation that'll determine your "fully trained" pay.


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## mariomike (23 Sep 2018)

Yosh said:
			
		

> I was happy to see that the Forces could provide a somewhat competitive wage with my civilian job as a paramedic.



As you know ( perhaps other readers do not ), paramedic licensure in Canada is provincially regulated. 

Salary comparisons depend upon which province you are in. And then, which municipality within that province.  

eg: In Ontario alone, there are about 60 municipal Paramedic services. Each has their own collective agreement.

I'm only familiar with Toronto. This is not up to date. It is only to 2016,
https://army.ca/forums/threads/105151.0
Note: "These are the top earners. Your earnings may vary."

It's pretty competitive. At the last hiring, there were 945 qualified candidates ( two-year diploma and AEMCA ) for 47 Primary Care Paramedic ( PCP ) positions. 

In Canada, if you've seen one paramedic system, you've seen one paramedic system...


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## Yosh (23 Sep 2018)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> $60k is what you'll make as a standard pay group Corporal. $49k is what you'll make as a Private. Depending on how much training you need (skilled vs unskilled entry) will determine how close you are to Corporal when you finish training. It's not a bait and switch, it's a complex situation that'll determine your "fully trained" pay.



You're talking about the two different numbers on their own. However, all of the language that comes before and after the numbers provides a specific context to those numbers, and because all of that language is identical in both instances, it is the same specific context. As I stated, as written at least one of those statements _has to_ be wrong. The additional context that you provided in your answer means something different than the language on the _Jobs Available Today_ website; ..._$60k is what you'll make as a standard pay group Corporal_... vs. _The starting salary for a fully-trained Medical Technician is $60,000_...

But you did answer my question, and I thank you for that. 

Based on your information, the statement on the _Jobs Available Today_ website is not correct.


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## da1root (3 Oct 2018)

Yosh said:
			
		

> You're talking about the two different numbers on their own. However, all of the language that comes before and after the numbers provides a specific context to those numbers, and because all of that language is identical in both instances, it is the same specific context. As I stated, as written at least one of those statements _has to_ be wrong. The additional context that you provided in your answer means something different than the language on the _Jobs Available Today_ website; ..._$60k is what you'll make as a standard pay group Corporal_... vs. _The starting salary for a fully-trained Medical Technician is $60,000_...
> 
> But you did answer my question, and I thank you for that.
> 
> Based on your information, the statement on the _Jobs Available Today_ website is not correct.



The statement on the website is correct (although confusing).  However that website is designed by a team of civilians that don't necessarily understand the military pay structure.

The statement is "The starting salary for a fully-trained Medical Technician is $60,000 per year;" - this is 100% accurate - when you first join the CAF you are not fully trained.  You are not considered "trained" and able to do your job until you reach OFP (Occupational Function Point, also referred to a Operational Function Point in some documents).  That is the rank of a Corporal - a Corporal makes $5,014/month ($60,168/year).

There is recommendation for this wording to be updated to avoid confusion between the starting salary in the CAF vice the starting salary of a fully qualified individual.  However updating doesn't happen over night


----------

