# Halifax Rifles returned to Order of Battle?



## Michael Dorosh (14 Nov 2000)

Worthington said in the paper today that there is a petition afoot to get the Halifax Rifles reinstated - a proposal has gone forth to create a 20 man recce unit at a cost of 750,000 (annually?)

Currently NS is the only province without an armoured regiment (according to Worthy).

Anyone closer to the action have any news on this?  The Halifax Rifles are third oldest Regiment in Canada and have had two Prime Ministers in their ranks through the years. Sounds like a neat idea.


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## the 48th regulator (5 Sep 2008)

MacKay also announced that one of Canada's oldest reserve units will be returned to active duty for the first time since being stood down in 1965. 

The Halifax Rifles will begin recruiting up to 100 members and will likely be used in a reconnaissance or light infantry role. 




© 2008 CTVGlobemedia  All Rights Reserved.





http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080905/mackay_arctic_080905/20080905?hub=Canada

Man this is fantastic,

Finally a governement on the right trach, God I love elections!

dileas

tess


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## Michael OLeary (5 Sep 2008)

Is this 100 positions in addition to other planned increases to the Reserves, or just the allocation of 100 positions to a new unit vice expanding existing ones?


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Sep 2008)

Now would they return to the order of battle in the position they where reduced to nil strength or would start at the bottom of the list?


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## The Bread Guy (5 Sep 2008)

No news release on CF web page as of this posting, so I'm guessing this came out of follow-up questioning at the Halifax news conference  - shared with the usual disclaimer....

From the Canadian Press


> Defence minister Peter MacKay says the military will establish a permanent army reserve in Canada's North.  Although MacKay is releasing few details, he says the unit will be established in Yellowknife as part of an increased military presence to protect Canada's Arctic sovereignty.  He says the unit will work with the Canadian Rangers in covering the "sparsely populated and geographically rugged region."  The Rangers are a largely aboriginal group of reservists considered the military's eyes and ears in the North.  MacKay also announced that one of Canada's oldest reserve units will be returned to active duty for the first time since being stood down in 1965.  The Halifax Rifles will begin recruiting up to 100 members and will likely be used in a reconnaissance or light infantry role.



Quickie open source list o' hits...

Army.ca profile
http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/The_Halifax_Rifles_(RCAC)

What appears to be an unofficial page on the Halifax Rifles (RCAC)
http://www.geocities.com/rifles23/

The cap badge (from The Public Register of Arms, Flags and Badges of Canada)






Older regalia (from williamscully.ca)


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## Michael OLeary (5 Sep 2008)

Nice.  So units which have successfully maintained their numbers will not be punished for it with a forced loss of positions to recreate a unit.  I guess it'll be a "light infantry" unit then because I suspect the Armour Corps won't want to redistribute its fleet of vehicles to support another unit with kit.


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## Michael OLeary (5 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Now would they return to the order of battle in the position they where reduced to nil strength or would start at the bottom of the list?



It depends.  

If there were "struck from the order of battle" then they would be a new unit at the bottom of the list.  

If they were "reduced to nil strength" but not struck from the order of battle, they would remain where they were.

But there's always the factor of political influence, so, watch and shoot.


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Sep 2008)

Backgrounder
The Halifax Rifles
BG - 08.021 - September 5, 2008

The Halifax Rifles was established as a unit in 1860. Members of this historic regiment proudly served Canada both at home and abroad, with many overseas campaigns and battle honours. As the 63rd Battalion, the unit also saw active service in Canada during the North West Rebellion of 1865. Many prominent Canadians served in the unit, including two Canadian Prime Ministers, The Hon Joseph Howe, (and three other Nova Scotia Premiers), as well as countless political and business leaders in the local community. 

In 1965, as part of a major reorganization of the Militia, the Halifax Rifles was made inactive and placed on the Supplementary Order of Battle. Former serving members of the unit have remained active in the military community through their membership in the Halifax Rifles Armoury Association. 

In September 2008, The Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, announced the reactivation of the Halifax Rifles. 

News Release
Government of Canada Announces Reserve Units in Nova Scotia and Northwest Territories
NR-08.063 - September 5, 2008

HALIFAX – The Honourable Peter Gordon MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister of the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency, announced today the return to service of the historic Halifax Rifles, and the creation of a new Army Reserve unit in Yellowknife. 

“I’m proud to announce that one of Canada’s oldest regiments - the Halifax Rifles - will see a return to service with the Reserve Army with Land Forces Atlantic Area,” said Minister MacKay. “This new unit will lend direct support to the domestic operations commitments of the existing Reserve forces in the Halifax area”. The Halifax Rifles will be either a reconnaissance or an infantry unit. 

In addition, the CF is creating a new Company-sized sub-unit to be assigned to one of Land Force Western Area’s existing Reserve Force Infantry Battalions in Yellowknife. Military leaders are currently mapping out the proposed mission and tasks for the new Yellowknife sub-unit which will enhance Canada’s ability to operate in the North. 

“The Army is expanding its Reserve footprint across the North by establishing a permanent land force reserve unit presence in this increasingly important region of the country,” said Minister MacKay. 

“Given our operational tempo abroad, it is prudent planning to enhance our ability to protect and support Canadians at home should the need arise,” added LFAA Commander, Brigadier-General Dave Neasmith


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## brihard (5 Sep 2008)

OK, this is probably a very stupid question given the name of the regiment, but will they actually be based in Halifax? Is there enough of a recruiting base to do so without boning the PLF? Are they going to maybe set up the new regiment in Dartmouth or Bedford so as to widen the recruiting base a bit and save some people a commute? Or will they stand it up as a second reserve Armoured regiment in 36 CBG?

I don't see any obvious gaps in the 36 CBG ORBAT, so this is a curious move. I would have thought that simply increasing the authorized strength of existing units would have been suitable; maybe another platoon each authorized for PLF, WNSR, and the NSH. Add more effective strength without having to add a new battalion staff and orderly room.

Oh well. I'm sure someone's thought it through. At the end of the day it's still good news.


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## brihard (5 Sep 2008)

Uh- can't help but notice the title of the thread. 

"CF to revive Halifax Rifles *as* new Arctic Reserve unit."

If I understand correctly, the two announcements are separate from one another. Somehow I don't see the Halifax Rifles being re-established in Yellowknife.  ;D

Curiously, CBC has picked up on the Halifax Rifles announcement, yet not a whit about the new unit in the North. I'd have thought that would have been what people would take more notice of.


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## Michael OLeary (5 Sep 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Oh well. I'm sure someone's thought it through.



This part made me laugh.


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## Shec (5 Sep 2008)

"In addition, the CF is creating a new Company-sized sub-unit to be assigned to one of Land Force Western Area’s existing Reserve Force Infantry Battalions in Yellowknife. Military leaders are currently mapping out the proposed mission and tasks for the new Yellowknife sub-unit which will enhance Canada’s ability to operate in the North."

The Loyal Eddies most likely.


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## CountDC (5 Sep 2008)

This is something that the Halifax Rifles have been fighting a long time for.  Can't see them being an infantry unit - not much use having 2 of them in Halifax. More likely Recon.

The recruiting base is a good point.  You already have Air Reserve in Shearwater, Stone Frigate at the Dockyards, Service Bn, Med Pl, Arty, Pl Fus, Int Coy, Band, Comms, Brigade and Area HQ. Don't think I missed anyone.


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Backgrounder
> The Halifax Rifles
> BG - 08.021 - September 5, 2008
> 
> ...



Which existing infantry unit is up there? perhaps the media misquoted and meant that a existing unit down south will have sub unit created in Yellowknife?

I am pleased about the Yellowknife part, but would want to see new resources to man and maintain each unit.


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## exspy (5 Sep 2008)

The Supplementary Order of Battle was a new animal created in 1965 as a third option for those existing Militia regiments that were now found to be redundant after the 1964 Suttie Commission.

Previously a regiment found to be surplus to the establishment had the option of either amalgamating with another unit or being removed from the order of battle.  Both options were permanent in that an amalgamated regiment would, in theory, not separate in the future nor would a removed regiment be replaced on the OB.

The SOB was created to put redundant regiments into a state of suspended animation rather than suffer the fate of permanent removal.  A regiment on the SOB was no longer active but not permanently gone.  They were waiting patiently for that day when they could be re-activated again.  A forty-three year wait for The Halifax Rifles.

As it relates to an arctic militia unit, The Yukon Regiment (RHQ in Whitehorse) was placed on the SOB in June of 1968.  It was formed in 1962 by redesignating the existing Whitehorse based militia sub-unit, C Squadron of the 19th Alberta Dragoons.

In 1968 the practice of placing regular force units into the SOB began creating a situation whereby The Canadian Guards, suspended but not removed, could re-appear on the existing OB.

Dan.


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## The Bread Guy (5 Sep 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Uh- can't help but notice the title of the thread.
> 
> "CF to revive Halifax Rifles *as* new Arctic Reserve unit."
> 
> ...



My mistake - too quick read of the MSM.  I stand chastised....


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## Danjanou (5 Sep 2008)

If we are putting a Infantry reserve unit north of 60 and as we're already reactiviating one old unit from the supplementary order of battle, then why not a second?

The Yukon Regiment


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## tomahawk6 (5 Sep 2008)

Very nice looking cap badge.Having more troops closer to the arctic has to be a good thing.


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## dapaterson (5 Sep 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Oh well. I'm sure someone's thought it through. At the end of the day it's still good news.



I suspect there's still a lot of staff work to be done on these initiatives.

Now here's a question:  With about 18 000 people in Whitehorse, how big a unit can the community sustain?

(Edited for the same reason as my earlier post)


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## Old Sweat (5 Sep 2008)

Dataperson 

Don't get me going on the historic and perhaps primary role of the militia as a device optimized for the application of patronage, nothing more and very little else. That isn't quite true as the local unit was an outlet for community-spirited mens' desire to contribute, sort of an early service club, albeit with funny clothes.

I know there are exceptions to the rule. However the belief in the militia myth and years of telling one another in the mess how the untrained volunteer was a natural soldier, and much better than the regulars, allowed successive Canadian governments to spend the bare minimum on defence. Even that tiny widow's mite was generally spent unwisely and inefficiently. The result were some disasters and near disasters (Ridgeway in the Fenian invasion of 1866 and most of the battles of the Northwest Rebellion) and an organization that was rated by a senior British general circa 1913 as the worst military force in the Empire.

Everybody, I apologize for my rant. I am going to have a beer or several in honour of our fallen comrades.


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Sep 2008)

psstt... OS its dapaterson not dataperson


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## brihard (5 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> This is something that the Halifax Rifles have been fighting a long time for.  Can't see them being an infantry unit - not much use having 2 of them in Halifax. More likely Recon.
> 
> The recruiting base is a good point.  You already have Air Reserve in Shearwater, Stone Frigate at the Dockyards, Service Bn, Med Pl, Arty, Pl Fus, Int Coy, Band, Comms, Brigade and Area HQ. Don't think I missed anyone.



We have the same issue in Ottawa... Two infantry regiments downtown at Cartier Square, a bunch of support trades and the engineers out at Walkley Road, artillery and NavRes at Dows Lake. The Camerons have been trying to set up a new company in the west end, out near Kanata, but finding the people (especially NCOs) to sustain a rifle Coy long enough to establish a self-sufficient West-end recruiting presence is tough. I could see the same thing being an issue in Halifax. Probably smarter to go after the north side of the harbour, or maybe aim for a Bedford/Lower Sackville recruiting base.

[quote author=dapaterson]With about 18 000 people in Whuitehorse, how big a unit can the community sustain?[/quote]

There's a bloody good question right there. To which I would add, where will the leadership and full time staff come from? They can only send so many guys RSS to Whitehorse... And I doubt the community has a slew of former reserve Sgts and MCpls kicking around looking for emplyoment on Thursdays.


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> This is something that the Halifax Rifles have been fighting a long time for.  Can't see them being an infantry unit - not much use having 2 of them in Halifax. More likely Recon.
> 
> The recruiting base is a good point.  You already have Air Reserve in Shearwater, Stone Frigate at the Dockyards, Service Bn, Med Pl, Arty, Pl Fus, Int Coy, Band, Comms, Brigade and Area HQ. Don't think I missed anyone.



You covered most of the bases, but there is a definite absence of Armour.

No matter what the Recruiting base may be in Halifax, maybe not everyone wants to be Infantry.  There has been no opportunities for those wanting to join Armour, unless they wanted to drive over to the Charlottetown or Sackville/Moncton.  Now the opportunity to join the Armour Corps will be offered to the Halifax and area recruiting base.


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## Privateer (5 Sep 2008)

The "Halifax Armoured Rifles"?


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## Ex-Dragoon (5 Sep 2008)

Privateer said:
			
		

> The "Halifax Armoured Rifles"?



No need to add Armoured..when they were disbanded they already were an armoured regiment


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## TN2IC (5 Sep 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I could see the same thing being an issue in Halifax. Probably smarter to go after the north side of the harbour, or maybe aim for a Bedford/Lower Sackville recruiting base.




The MP's are now relocated in Sackville.


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## dapaterson (5 Sep 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Which existing infantry unit is up there? perhaps the media misquoted and meant that a existing unit down south will have sub unit created in Yellowknife?
> 
> I am pleased about the Yellowknife part, but would want to see new resources to man and maintain each unit.



I believe it's the phrasing that's unclear.  It should read something like "the CF is creating a new Company-sized sub-unit in Yellowknife, to be assigned to one of Land Force Western Area’s existing Reserve Force Infantry Battalions."

Gee, almost as if the press release was drafted in a hurry...


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Sep 2008)

I concure dapaterson as it seems that parliment will be dissolved on Sunday.

EDITED TO FIX A MEMBERS NAME  :brickwall:


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## dapaterson (5 Sep 2008)

There's another thread where you can read the press release from the PMO, inviting the media to watch the PM go from 24 Sussex Drive to Rideau Hall on Sunday to request the dissolution of Parliament.  So it's a pretty safe bet...


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> No need to add Armoured..when they were disbanded they already were an armoured regiment



I know that.  However, today there are only two Armour Regiments in the Maritimes to serve LFAA.  The PEIR and the 8 CH (M).  There are no Armour Units in NS.  How many Reserve Bdes are there in LFAA?

On another note, how many other documents has the Minister finally gotten around to putting his signature on?


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> The MP's are now relocated in Sackville.



Is that Sackville NB or Lower Sackville NS?


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## Ex-Dragoon (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I know that.  However, today there are only two Armour Regiments in the Maritimes to serve LFAA.  The PEIR and the 8 CH (M).  There are no Armour Units in NS.  How many Reserve Bdes are there in LFAA?
> 
> On another note, how many other documents has the Minister finally gotten around to putting his signature on?



Was addressing Privateers post, from the looks of it he was confused on whether HR were an armoured regiment


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I know that.  However, today there are only two Armour Regiments in the Maritimes to serve LFAA.  The PEIR and the 8 CH (M).  There are no Armour Units in NS.  How many Reserve Bdes are there in LFAA?
> 
> On another note, how many other documents has the Minister finally gotten around to putting his signature on?



There are 2 Brigades in LFAA 36 and 37. PEIR belongs to 36 and 8CH belongs to 37


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## blacktriangle (5 Sep 2008)

Haha if they make it an armd recce unit it sure as hell won't have any vehicles!


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## dapaterson (5 Sep 2008)

I understand a flurry of documents made it off the MND's desk recently - almost as if her were clearing it off...


And at that I'll go into a listening watch on this thread... a bit too close to home...


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> There are 2 Brigades in LFAA 36 and 37. PEIR belongs to 36 and 8CH belongs to 37



So we have the PLF, WNSR, NSR NSH in NS, the RNBR in NB, and the RNFldR in Nfld.  Seems to me I was missing something.   Maybe not.


[Edit for a Brain Fart in the North Novies title.]


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Was addressing Privateers post, from the looks of it he was confused on whether HR were an armoured regiment



......and it snowballed.    ;D


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## Ex-Dragoon (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ......and it snowballed.    ;D



big time
lol


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So we have the PLF, WNSR, NSR in NS, the RNBR in NB, and the RNFldR in Nfld.  Seems to me I was missing something.   Maybe not.



Looking for a complete break down of units the Brigades?

Lets see if I got this one right....

36 CBG

Prince Edward Island Regiment 
1st Field Regiment RCA (Halifax-Dartmouth)  
84th Independant Field Battery  
45th Field Engineer Squadron  
The Princess Louise Fusiliers  
The West Nova Scotia Regiment  
1st Battalion, The Nova Scotia Highlanders (North)  
2nd Battalion, The Nova Scotia Highlanders (Cape Breton)  
33 (Halifax) Service Battalion 
35 (Sydney) Service Battalion 
33 (Halifax) Field Ambulance  

37 CBG
1st Bn The Royal New Brunswick Regiment (Carleton and York) Saint John, Fredericton, and Edmundston, N.B. 
2nd Bn The Royal New Brunswick Regiment (North Shore) Bathurst and Campbellton, N.B. 
1st Bn The Royal Newfoundland Regiment St. John's, N.L 
2nd Bn The Royal Newfoundland Regiment Cornerbrook, N.L 
B Coy 2nd Bn The Royal Newfoundland Regiment Grand Falls-Windsor, N.L 
C Coy 2nd Bn The Royal Newfoundland Regiment Stephenville, N.L 
115 Bty 3rd Field Artillery Regiment RCA Saint John, New Brunswick 
89 Bty 3rd Field Artillery Regiment RCA Woodstock, New Brunswick 
The 8th Canadian Hussars (Princess Louise's) Moncton, New Brunswick 
B Sqn The 8th Canadian Hussars (Princess Louise's) Sussex, New Brunswick 
56 Field Engineer Squadron (56 FES) St. John's N.L


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> OK, this is probably a very stupid question given the name of the regiment, but will they actually be based in Halifax? Is there enough of a recruiting base to do so without boning the PLF? Are they going to maybe set up the new regiment in Dartmouth or Bedford so as to widen the recruiting base a bit and save some people a commute? Or will they stand it up as a second reserve Armoured regiment in 36 CBG?
> 
> I don't see any obvious gaps in the 36 CBG ORBAT, so this is a curious move. I would have thought that simply increasing the authorized strength of existing units would have been suitable; maybe another platoon each authorized for PLF, WNSR, and the NSH. Add more effective strength without having to add a new battalion staff and orderly room.
> 
> Oh well. I'm sure someone's thought it through. At the end of the day it's still good news.



The PLF has mbrs from ALL area's of the HRM...I don't think they will have a problem because in recent years they actually had a waiting list of people who wanted to join but they were already full.  I doubt you will see this unit stand up as a PRes Armd Recce unit, but thats not up to me.  However, the name Halifax Rifles suggests infantry, does it not??

I believe the expansion of existing units has already happened to the point they are allowed.  Creating more spots in the existing units is one thing; finding people to fill them is another.  I haven't been at 36 CBG HQ for over 2 years now, but I know there was some inability at some outlying units to fill every position; we all know how Reserve units get their funding...so of course all the COs want to see as many troops on the ground as possible.

I do know that 36 CBG now has a "Bde Recruiting" concept set up, whereas before each unit had a recruiter that recruited for their unit, and reported to a CWO in our G1 shop but now there is a "36 Bde Recruiting" concept, so you could be talking to a Sgt from 1st Fd about getting into the Svc Bn, type of deal.  From what I've been told, it has been working very well so far, but that was last fall that I last talked to someone in that office.  I'll have to fire off a few emails and see what the scoop is.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> This is something that the Halifax Rifles have been fighting a long time for.  Can't see them being an infantry unit - not much use having 2 of them in Halifax. More likely Recon.
> 
> The recruiting base is a good point.  You already have Air Reserve in Shearwater, Stone Frigate at the Dockyards, Service Bn, Med Pl, Arty, Pl Fus, Int Coy, Band, Comms, Brigade and Area HQ. Don't think I missed anyone.



30 MP, now located in Lower Sacville.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I know that.  However, today there are only two Armour Regiments in the Maritimes to serve LFAA.  The PEIR and the 8 CH (M).  There are no Armour Units in NS.  *How many Reserve Bdes are there in LFAA?*
> 
> On another note, how many other documents has the Minister finally gotten around to putting his signature on?



Not sure if the bolded part was a serious question, but in the event it was, there are 2, 36 CBG (NS and PEI) and 37 CBG (NB and Nfld).


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Is that Sackville NB or Lower Sackville NS?



Lower Sackville NS


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## Nfld Sapper (5 Sep 2008)

EITS thought I said that in one of my previous post? and did I miss any in the Brigade break down?


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So we have the PLF, WNSR, NSR NSH in NS, the RNBR in NB, and the RNFldR in Nfld.  Seems to me I was missing something.   Maybe not.
> 
> 
> [Edit for a Brain Fart in the North Novies title.]



PLF, WNSR, 1 NSH, and 2 NSH (2nd Bn is in Sydney).


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Not sure if the bolded part was a serious question, but in the event it was, there are 2, 36 CBG (NS and PEI) and 37 CBG (NB and Nfld).



It was serious, as for some reason I thought there were three.

And as we are on the Sackville issue, what happened to the Sqn of 8 CH (M) that used to be in Sackville, NB?


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## George Wallace (5 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> PLF, WNSR, 1 NSH, and 2 NSH (2nd Bn is in Sydney).



.....And if I remember correctly, that would be Tydney.  Close to North Tydney and New Waterford.   ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And as we are on the Sackville issue, what happened to the Sqn of 8 CH (M) that used to be in Sackville, NB?



IIRC, that was C Sqn and it was shut down.  We had a Capt (PEIR, Class A flavour) at the HQ who had moved to Sackville NB for his civie job and he was training with A Sqn in Moncton.  B Sqn in Sussex is still going.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> .....And if I remember correctly, that would be Tydney.  Close to North Tydney and New Waterford.   ;D



LOL.  Yup.  2 NSH is mainly located at Victoria Park but have a Pl in North Tydney as well.  Also located at Victoria Park is 35 Fd Amb (attached to 37 Bde), 35 Svc Bn, and 45 FES.  Victoria Park is actually a VERY nice garrison IMO.

725 Comm Sqn (formerly a Troop of 721 Comm's in the Brighton Compound back home) is also located in Glace Bay.


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## Matt_Fisher (6 Sep 2008)

I'd be suprised to see the Halifax Rifles be activated as an armoured regiment again; CLS stated in pretty clear terms at the Infantry Conference in May that there is what he perceives to be a surplus of armoured units and if he has his way, there's going to be some re-roling of those units into what he deems to better suit the Army's needs (*cough* Engineers *cough*).  Whilst it is nice to see a historic regiment return to life, I'm a bit dismayed at the decision, plus the Yellowknife decision.  Seems that we've already got adequate reserve unit coverage for NS, and I don't think that recruiting CF reserve members from a far north workforce is going to be easy.  I'm led to believe that most people who are mostly motivated to stay in that area due so because of the ability to achieve huge monetary gains they make from extensive overtime hours working in the natural resource sectors (i.e. work for a few weeks with insane overtime, then head 'back south' for a week or two off, then repeat the cycle).  I don't see how those kind of folks are going to have any desire to take time off for reserve military training.
For years, Prince George BC has been campaigning for a reserve unit of some kind to be set up in it, and have been consecutively turned down.  Seems to me like this announcement is largely driven by politics than practicality (i.e. Reactivating the Halifax Rifles on McKay's home turf of NS and forming a NT based reserve unit to bolster the focus on northern sovereignty)


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I'd be suprised to see the Halifax Rifles be activated as an armoured regiment again; CLS stated in pretty clear terms at the Infantry Conference in May that there is what he perceives to be a surplus of armoured units and if he has his way, *there's going to be some re-roling of those units into what he deems to better suit the Army's needs (*cough* Engineers *cough*).*



This was done with The Elgin Regiment back mid-90's or so.  Anyone know how that worked out?  I remember talking with a friend of mine who was  Sgt-Major of RETS around 1998, and he mentioned some...concerns...over the way the transition had went, especially on the NCO side.


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## Matt_Fisher (6 Sep 2008)

From sources I know, the transition was not without its teething pains, but it seems that the unit has managed to survive and provides a valuable contribution to the LFCA and CF engineering community.

If we're just going to end up rolling the Halifax Rifles as Engineers, why not just form either a Field Squadron, or Combat Engineer Regiment from the get-go, unless you're trying to make some sort of political splash by bringing back some proud and storied regiment that will create more headlines in the local community than would the creation of some new and 'unknown' unit.  As I said earlier, CLS was pretty clear in that he wants less, not more armour, and more, not less engineers in his reserve Army composition, and with this particular CLS, what he generally wants, he gets.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Sep 2008)

When I was with 36 CBG HQ, there was talk ( at COS and Bde Cmdr O Gps ) of a plan expand on the Res Cmbt Egnr units, and one was supposedly going to be stood up in the HRM and one, IIRC, in Fredericton with 37 CBG.  It was one of MANY ideas being discussed about expanding the F Echelon troops/units in both the CBGs in LFAA, being that LFAA is the only Area without a CMBG.

Without going into much detail, never was there a mention of adding more to the Recce Sqns (8 CH had just re-rolled from Armour, with the expected problems from that) and PEIR, well the numbers just aren't there (the last Ex I was on with The Regiment in 2006, they did well to field a single 7-car troop, and that was without Obs in all the Ptl Cmdr c/s's) , but PLF was supposed to pick up an extra Coy and I believe the other Inf Bns were expected to pick up an additional Pl and would be fitted out as Recce Pl's.  We were tasked to determine what kit would be required on the '6' side for all these new units if they ever came to be.  This was all shortly before I departed for CFLRS.


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## The Bread Guy (6 Sep 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> For years, Prince George BC has been campaigning for a reserve unit of some kind to be set up in it, and have been consecutively turned down.  Seems to me like this announcement is largely driven by politics than practicality (i.e. Reactivating the Halifax Rifles on McKay's home turf of NS and forming a NT based reserve unit to bolster the focus on northern sovereignty)



Interesting mention, esp. considering the MP for Prince George is also blue (for the moment, anyway) - but wait, Cabinet Minister trumps backbencher?  To be fair, though, if the BC MP is a sure winner, and McKay needs to boost his chances (happy to hear more detail on that political situation), you can also see the reason for the choice.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Sep 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Gee, almost as if the press release was drafted in a hurry...



With phrasing like:


> The Halifax Rifles will be either a reconnaissance or an infantry unit.


and


> Military leaders are currently mapping out the proposed mission and tasks for the new Yellowknife sub-unit which will enhance Canada’s ability to operate in the North.



I would have to agree.


----------



## RangerRay (6 Sep 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> For years, Prince George BC has been campaigning for a reserve unit of some kind to be set up in it, and have been consecutively turned down.  Seems to me like this announcement is largely driven by politics than practicality (i.e. Reactivating the Halifax Rifles on McKay's home turf of NS and forming a NT based reserve unit to bolster the focus on northern sovereignty)



Local Tory MP's have been working for years to bring back a company of RMRang.  The nearest unit to Prince George (pop. ~80,000) is A Coy RMRang, about 5 hours south or so.

Personally, I'd love to see a return of the Irish Fusiliers of Canada (The Vancouver Regiement)... ;D


----------



## Matt_Fisher (6 Sep 2008)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd love to see a return of the Irish Fusiliers of Canada (The Vancouver Regiement)... ;D



Irish Fusiliers (The Vancouver Regiment) were recently (in the last 10 years) amalgamated with the British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own Rifles), so I think that the Irish Fusiliers are now done forever.  Seems kinda odd that you'd take a PRes unit and have a long inactive SOR unit amalgamated with it, but that's what happened.  Supposedly there was some connection between a few CEF battalions in the First World War that became the British Columbia Regiment and the Irish Fusiliers.  This connection was what was used as the basis of reasoning to amalgamate the two units, however the purpose of carrying it out is beyond me.  Alot of members of the BCRs feel that the amalgamation was done solely to create a legacy for a few senior members of the regiment as to have done something noteworthy during their tenure, and to increase the roster of the regimental association and the coffers of the regimental fund by bringing in the remaining members of the Irish Fusiliers regimental association to the BCR fold.


----------



## geo (6 Sep 2008)

From what I can gather from today's article in the papers, the Halifax Rifles are being re-established as a Yellowknife unit - not a NS unit... kinda goes against the usual habbit of maintaining City bearing unit names in their original stomoping grounds but... what da hey...


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## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> From what I can gather from today's article in the papers, the Halifax Rifles are being re-established as a Yellowknife unit - not a NS unit... kinda goes against the usual habbit of maintaining City bearing unit names in their original stomoping grounds but... what da hey...



Now that makes no sense at all.


----------



## brihard (6 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> From what I can gather from today's article in the papers, the Halifax Rifles are being re-established as a Yellowknife unit - not a NS unit... kinda goes against the usual habbit of maintaining City bearing unit names in their original stomoping grounds but... what da hey...



Nope. That's two separate things, both announced at the same time by MacKay. HR will stay in Halifax, and the Yellowknife unit is to be a new sub-unit for an existing organization. I've read speculation that it could be the Loyal Eddies. I've tried to find out if Yellowknife has ever had any combat arms milita presence. The closest I could find was 13 Field Squadron from 8 Field Regiment, RCE. That squadron got pruned sometime between 1953 and 1980.


----------



## The Bread Guy (6 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> From what I can gather from today's article in the papers, the Halifax Rifles are being re-established as a Yellowknife unit - not a NS unit... kinda goes against the usual habbit of maintaining City bearing unit names in their original stomoping grounds but... what da hey...



I read it that way the first time through a Canadian Press story yesterday, too - you're not alone.


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## Michael OLeary (6 Sep 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Irish Fusiliers (The Vancouver Regiment) were recently (in the last 10 years) amalgamated with the British Columbia Regiment (Duke of Connaught's Own Rifles), so I think that the Irish Fusiliers are now done forever.  Seems kinda odd that you'd take a PRes unit and have a long inactive SOR unit amalgamated with it, but that's what happened.  Supposedly there was some connection between a few CEF battalions in the First World War that became the British Columbia Regiment and the Irish Fusiliers.  This connection was what was used as the basis of reasoning to amalgamate the two units, however the purpose of carrying it out is beyond me.  Alot of members of the BCRs feel that the amalgamation was done solely to create a legacy for a few senior members of the regiment as to have done something noteworthy during their tenure, and to increase the roster of the regimental association and the coffers of the regimental fund by bringing in the remaining members of the Irish Fusiliers regimental association to the BCR fold.



Have you got a reference for this being a formal amalgamation?


----------



## dapaterson (6 Sep 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Have you got a reference for this being a formal amalgamation?



The formal document would be the Ministerial Organizational Order for the BCD, which would contain that level of detail.  There's a certain degree of friction between DHH (holders of the Supp Order of Battle) and the VCDS O&E staff on issues like this (and likely will be on the Halifax Rifles as well).


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## R933ex (6 Sep 2008)

As a Yellowknifer I am thrilled at the prospect for a unit up here. Currently with no PRL and with 440 being the only Primary Reserve unit, those that want to parade don't really have the opportunity. And currently there is quite a few retired infanteers who probably would be prepared to join an infantry reserve unit up here. I don't think you would ever see a functioning infantry company but a reinforced platoon......


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## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

Arctic army reserve to be based in Yellowknife, MacKay says
Last Updated: Friday, September 5, 2008 | 4:21 PM CT 
The Canadian Press 
*The military will establish a permanent army reserve in Canada's North as part of Ottawa's effort to protect Arctic sovereignty, Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Friday.*

Although MacKay released few details during an announcement at a military trade show in Halifax, he said the unit would be established in Yellowknife.

The complement would likely consist of 100 soldiers over time, depending upon need, MacKay said.

He added the unit could be used to augment other proposed initiatives in neighbouring Nunavut, including a deepwater port at the former Nanisivik mine site and a military training centre in Resolute.

"This reserve unit covers an enormous amount of land mass and they will also work closely with the Canadian Arctic Rangers," said MacKay.

The Rangers are a largely aboriginal group of reservists considered the military's eyes and ears in the North. They are primarily used for sovereignty patrols and are known for their ability to operate in harsh Arctic conditions.

Arctic expert wary of pre-election promises
The announcement came in advance of an expected election campaign in which the Arctic is likely to be an important issue in the Conservative platform.

And it follows last week's Arctic tour by Prime Minister Stephen Harper, during which he announced that all foreign vessels travelling in Canada's disputed northern waters would have to register with the coast guard.

It's against that backdrop that the newest initiative has to be measured, according to Rob Huebert, associate director for the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary.

"I'm always very suspicious of announcements made in an election or an immediate pre-election, particularly when it comes to the North," said Huebert.

"Having said that, this government has actually taken important steps on the Arctic, so perhaps this will be in fact different."

Huebert points out that if nothing else, the symbolism is important for Canada's territories, which have gone without the traditional military reserve units that operate in all 10 provinces.

He said if a unit is established, it will give the military an important link to the community at large and provide northerners with the opportunity to serve at home.

"I think it's also an important signal to the international community that we are continuing to get more and more serious about what we do in the Arctic," Huebert said.

Forces struggling in 'war for talent'
But the good intentions could be derailed by recruiting problems that have hit the military because of retirements and poaching by the private sector.

The problem is so acute it prompted Rick Hillier, the former chief of defence staff, to remark in May that the Canadian Forces is in a domestic "war for talent."

MacKay also announced that one of Canada's oldest reserve units would be returned to active duty for the first time since being stood down in 1965.

*The Halifax Rifles will begin recruiting up to 100 members and will likely be used in a reconnaissance or light infantry role.

But filling out the unit will be a challenge, admitted Brig.-Gen. Dave Neasmith, area commander for Land Forces Atlantic.*

"Both industry here as well as the Canadian Forces and all the other units are going to be competing for the same quality folks ... and that's why it's going to take a little time to actually stand up the unit," said Neasmith.

MacKay admitted the challenge in Canada's northern regions would likely be complicated by a sparse population spread over vast, rugged geography.

He said that might mean bolstering the Yellowknife unit by a rotation of soldiers from other parts of Canada.

© The Canadian Press, 2008


Former cavalry unit reactivated after 4 decades
Last Updated: Friday, September 5, 2008 | 3:11 PM AT 
CBC News 
*Canada's defence minister has reactivated a Halifax-based military reserve unit that was disbanded four decades ago*, creating up to 100 part-time jobs.

The Halifax Rifles were founded in 1860 as a cavalry unit, serving in both world wars and Korea. The unit has been inactive since 1965.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay said Friday the Rifles have a distinguished history and will serve Canada well.

Brig.-Gen. Dave Neasmith said the modern version of the unit will carry out either infantry or armoured duty, but it will take time to get it up to full strength.

"About 100 folks is typically the size of a squadron in a former armoury unit, so that's basically what I'm looking at," Neasmith said in Halifax.

It will "probably take us three, four years in order to get everything up the way we like — to get them the equipment, to get them some infrastructure — so it's not something that happens overnight."

Richard Hurlburt, Nova Scotia's minister responsible for military relations, welcomed the announcement, noting it will provide part-time work for up to 100 people.

Two prime ministers, Charles Tupper and Robert Borden, were members of the Halifax Rifles. The unit's motto is "Yield to None."


----------



## TN2IC (6 Sep 2008)

I"m pretty sure Halifax Rifles is a cadet corps at the local Armories. Please correct me if I"m wrong, it's been a bit.


----------



## AJFitzpatrick (6 Sep 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Have you got a reference for this being a formal amalgamation?



Found this website

http://www.irishpipesanddrums.com/
This band claims the lineage of the pipes and drums of the Irish Fusiliers of Canada and attributes its revival to the amalgamation.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Sep 2008)

Even though it may sound like it, I'm not insulting the reserves here but,

Mr. McKay,
If you aren't announcing a fully trained, fully kitted, fully staffed, fully deployable, full time unit then you are full of.......


----------



## Matt_Fisher (6 Sep 2008)

Given the track record of the last couple pre-election defence spending/initiative promises by the MND, I think we'll be seeing the Halifax Rifles return to the reserve order of battle and a reserve unit in Yellowknife happen as soon as we have the Airborne Battalion in Trenton, the Marine Commando Regiment in Comox, and the Arctic QRF battalion in Goose Bay... :


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

R933ex said:
			
		

> with 440 being the only Primary Reserve unit,



When did 440 Sqn become a reserve unit ?


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> When did 440 Sqn become a reserve unit ?



The Squadron is comprised of approximately 35 aircrew and technicians who are a mixture of Regular Force and Reserve Force members.


----------



## aesop081 (6 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> The Squadron is comprised of approximately 35 aircrew and technicians who are a mixture of Regular Force and Reserve Force members.



Just like every other Sqn in the Air Force.........


----------



## Matt_Fisher (6 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> The Squadron is comprised of approximately 35 aircrew and technicians who are a mixture of Regular Force and Reserve Force members.



Lets not forget though that most of our AF reservists are class B/C and are not likely to be recruited from the local community in the case of 440 Sqn.  I'd be surprised if there are any Class A reserve positions in that unit (or at least Class A members who were recruited locally).


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Sep 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Lets not forget though that most of our AF reservists are class B/C and are not likely to be recruited from the local community in the case of 440 Sqn.  I'd be surprised if there are any Class A reserve positions in that unit (or at least Class A members who were recruited locally).



Think they are more likely to be either Class B or Class B/A Matt vice Class C


----------



## Harris (6 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> This is something that the Halifax Rifles have been fighting a long time for.  Can't see them being an infantry unit - not much use having 2 of them in Halifax. More likely Recon.
> 
> The recruiting base is a good point.  You already have Air Reserve in Shearwater, Stone Frigate at the Dockyards, Service Bn, Med Pl, Arty, Pl Fus, Int Coy, Band, Comms, Brigade and Area HQ. Don't think I missed anyone.



In addition there are PSYOPS, CIMIC, (As part of the Information Operations Unit with 3 Int) and the MPs in Sackville.


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## George Wallace (6 Sep 2008)

Harris said:
			
		

> In addition there are PSYOPS, CIMIC, and the MPs in Sackville.



I understand that the different Areas are increasing their PSYOPS and CIMIC posns, as well as HUMINT.   As these people can be any Trade, I am sure that these are just a bit of juggling in the books, with these people filling the various roles, but still keeping their Regimental/Branch affiliations and posns.


----------



## R933ex (6 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Think they are more likely to be either Class B or Class B/A Matt vice Class C



Actually untill recently almost all reservists in the squadron were local hires. Now the flight is all but dismantled, but there are a few hold overs.


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## Harris (6 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I understand that the different Areas are increasing their PSYOPS and CIMIC posns, as well as HUMINT.   As these people can be any Trade, I am sure that these are just a bit of juggling in the books, with these people filling the various roles, but still keeping their Regimental/Branch affiliations and posns.



Talking of PSYOPS, while any trade is welcome, the Tactical PSYOPS teams require Cbt Arms folks.  Everyone does keep their Regimental affiliations, and are expected to train with their home Units whenever possible.  They are transferred to the Information Operations Unit however, and then attach posted back to their "home" units for administration.

BUT...a soldier can only wear so many hats, and there are only so many people willing to be in the Military regardless of trade.  Adding another Unit to Halifax is stretching the realm of the possible IMO.


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## George Wallace (6 Sep 2008)

Harris said:
			
		

> Talking of PSYOPS, while any trade is welcome, the Tactical PSYOPS teams require Cbt Arms folks.  Everyone does keep their Regimental affiliations, and are expected to train with their home Units whenever possible.  They are transferred to the Information Operations Unit however, and then attach posted back to their "home" units for administration.
> 
> BUT...a soldier can only wear so many hats, and there are only so many people willing to be in the Military regardless of trade.  Adding another Unit to Halifax is stretching the realm of the possible IMO.



How many hats do CF Pers wear now?  Actually the whole Civil Service.  "You are doing the work of two to ten.  Keep up the good work."  It is a neat way to create Company size organizations and the Zero man them, attaching trained people in, only to deploy them, and then sending them back to their Parent Units.  It takes the "Double Hat" phrase to the next level.   ;D


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## geo (7 Sep 2008)

Well, OK... guess the press realease was sketchy enough - combining two items in the one... my bad interpretation.

OK WRT to Halifax... how is the strength of the local units at present ???
1 RCA
3 Int Coy
3 MPU
33 Svc Bn
723 Comm Sqn
PLF
To me it makes no sense at all to start up a new unit if existing ones don't have the legs to stand un...
That being said, there appears to be an "armoured" or light RECCE & Engineer capacity mising from the NS mix.... 
But you gotta have bodies on the ground to make the darned thing work.... do we have em ?


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## George Wallace (7 Sep 2008)

Ummm!    Geo ?



			
				NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Looking for a complete break down of units the Brigades?
> 
> Lets see if I got this one right....
> 
> ...


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> That being said, there appears to be an "armoured" or light RECCE & Engineer capacity mising from the NS mix....



I am not sure about the unit strenghts now, been gone for 2+ years from Bde.  However, 36 CBG has Armd Recce (PEIR) and Fd Egnr (45 FES).


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## George Wallace (7 Sep 2008)

In both cases, neither is in Halifax.  The PEIR are in Charlottetown and Summerside, PEI and 45 FES is in Sydney, NS.

http://www.army.dnd.ca/36cbg_hq/pages/units_e.html


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## Loachman (7 Sep 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Lets not forget though that most of our AF reservists are class B/C and are not likely to be recruited from the local community in the case of 440 Sqn.



Not where I am.


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## geo (7 Sep 2008)

Ummm...
1.  When trouble happens, you never have enough Sappers 
2.  45 FES is based in Cape Breton (Sydney)... a fair distance from Halifax.  56 FES is well.... even further - on the rock.

3  The PEIR & 8CH are light RECCE units - again - a fair distance away.

If someone has concluded that there is enough of a need for RECCE in the Halifax area, then there might very well be a need for those additional sappers... Possibly a detached troop from 45 FES.  I just don't know :shrug:


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Ummm...
> 1.  When trouble happens, you never have enough Sappers
> 2.  45 FES is based in Cape Breton (Sydney)... a fair distance from Halifax.  56 FES is well.... even further - on the rock.Unless we get airlift we are more than 16+hrs away by road and sea and assuming that Marine Atlantic would give us priority for a crossing
> 
> ...



Don't forget that 4 ESR is within driving distance albeit something like 4+hrs.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Sep 2008)

George, true but both are in 36 CBG, although not geographically in Hfx, and geographically 36 CBG is all of NS and PEI.  The last time they were "needed" in Hfx was Juan back in Sept 2003, and, like the IRU out of Gagetown, they were here (all 3 being about a 4 hour drive from Hfx).   Its a bit of a mix-match in the CBGs down here.  As I mentioned, 35 Fd Amb is located in Sydney but belongs to 37 CBG, which is not even in the same provinces(s) as 37.  Same goes for Nfld, which has no Armd or Arty units.  56 FES is the 37 Bde Engr unit but is only in St-Johns.  Thats a big area for a Res unit to cover.

Geo, ref your point #3, ALL PRes Armd units have re-rolled to Armd Recce/Light Recce.  There was talk when I was at Bde HQ about a Res Engr unit being stood up in both Hfx and Fredericton (as I mentioned earlier).  

I'll hopefully get a few details from the folks I know at the Bde Recruiting Cell and G3 world tomorrow...


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Sep 2008)

Thought 35 FD AMB supports both Brigades?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Thought 35 FD AMB supports both Brigades?



Well, it was 33 Fd Amb with 36 CBG and 35 Fd Amb went over to 37 CBG...as 37 didn't have a Res Fd Amb.


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## dapaterson (7 Sep 2008)

Fd ambs do not belong to the CBGs.  They belong to the Health Services Group.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Sep 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Fd ambs do not belong to the CBGs.  They belong to the Health Services Group.



True.  I should have said "tasked" or "OPCON" or whatever the current situation is.  

3 Int and 30 MP fall directly under LFAA as well IIRC.


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## Romeo Echo Mike Echo (7 Sep 2008)

I read press release glad to hear about The Halifax Mounted Rifles; the fascinating report was about a " new Company-sized sub-unit to be assigned to one of Land Force Western Area’s existing Reserve Force Infantry Battalions in Yellowknife". Any guesses about which BNs? LER maybe as 4 or5 PPCLI.


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Sep 2008)

Loyal Edmonton Regiment IS the 4th BN PPCLI.



			
				Romeo Echo Mike Echo said:
			
		

> I read press release glad to hear about The Halifax Mounted Rifles; the fascinating report was about a " new Company-sized sub-unit to be assigned to one of Land Force Western Area’s existing Reserve Force Infantry Battalions in Yellowknife". Any guesses about which BNs? LER maybe as 4 or5 PPCLI.



They you then just be another company of LER then not a new BN IMHO


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## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You covered most of the bases, but there is a definite absence of Armour.
> 
> No matter what the Recruiting base may be in Halifax, maybe not everyone wants to be Infantry.  There has been no opportunities for those wanting to join Armour, unless they wanted to drive over to the Charlottetown or Sackville/Moncton.  Now the opportunity to join the Armour Corps will be offered to the Halifax and area recruiting base.



the point is with all those units already in Halifax placing another unit there will simply mean taking potential recruits from them. Armour is not a good choice for the area as NS does not allow armoured vehicles to travel on the highway/road system. Anytime they want to play on the tanks they would have to load them onto the back of a rig to transport them to ...... Gagetown.  There really is no training area in NS that is suitable for armoured. I hope they go with Recon and give them a couple snoopy APC's - that might bring in enough additional recruits.


----------



## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> I'd be suprised to see the Halifax Rifles be activated as an armoured regiment again; CLS stated in pretty clear terms at the Infantry Conference in May that there is what he perceives to be a surplus of armoured units and if he has his way, there's going to be some re-roling of those units into what he deems to better suit the Army's needs (*cough* Engineers *cough*).  Whilst it is nice to see a historic regiment return to life, I'm a bit dismayed at the decision, plus the Yellowknife decision.  Seems that we've already got adequate reserve unit coverage for NS, and I don't think that recruiting CF reserve members from a far north workforce is going to be easy.  I'm led to believe that most people who are mostly motivated to stay in that area due so because of the ability to achieve huge monetary gains they make from extensive overtime hours working in the natural resource sectors (i.e. work for a few weeks with insane overtime, then head 'back south' for a week or two off, then repeat the cycle).  I don't see how those kind of folks are going to have any desire to take time off for reserve military training.
> For years, Prince George BC has been campaigning for a reserve unit of some kind to be set up in it, and have been consecutively turned down.  Seems to me like this announcement is largely driven by politics than practicality (i.e. Reactivating the Halifax Rifles on McKay's home turf of NS and forming a NT based reserve unit to bolster the focus on northern sovereignty)



I do agree that there seems to be plenty of Reserve units in the Halifax area.

How long has Prince George been campaigning?  Halifax Rifles has been since they were stood down - even formed an association and cadet unit. hey - maybe that is where they can get the needed recruits - convert the cadets into a reserve unit!!


----------



## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

Harris said:
			
		

> In addition there are PSYOPS, CIMIC, (As part of the Information Operations Unit with 3 Int) and the MPs in Sackville.



as they are part of Int I didn't seperate them - did forget that the MPs were no longer part of Service Battalion.


----------



## George Wallace (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> as they are part of Int I didn't seperate them - did forget that the MPs were no longer part of Service Battalion.



 ???

What are you talking about?  Where did you come up with this false info?  They may fall into an organization which brings these different Units together under one 'command'.  That organization is "Information Ops", not "Intelligence"


----------



## George Wallace (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> the point is with all those units already in Halifax placing another unit there will simply mean taking potential recruits from them. Armour is not a good choice for the area as NS does not allow armoured vehicles to travel on the highway/road system. Anytime they want to play on the tanks they would have to load them onto the back of a rig to transport them to ...... Gagetown.  There really is no training area in NS that is suitable for armoured. I hope they go with Recon and give them a couple snoopy APC's - that might bring in enough additional recruits.



OK

You are right outside of your Lanes on this.  Armour Reserve units do not have any tracked vehicles, let alone tanks...........Where in PEI do you think they have a Training Area?  Do you have any knowledge of any Armour Reserve unit across this country?  

Just as a matter of interest, I have ran Armour Recce Crses in Camp Aldershot, in the Valley, in Nova Scotia, in the Summer Time, and Exercised as an Armour Recce Troop Officer with a full Troop as part of a Recce Sqn several years in a row........All in Nova Scotia....All without any problems.

AND TO GET REALLY PICKY   IT IS RECCE.......NOT Recon. !


----------



## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> OK
> 
> You are right outside of your Lanes on this.  Armour Reserve units do not have any tracked vehicles, let alone tanks...........Where in PEI do you think they have a Training Area?  Do you have any knowledge of any Armour Reserve unit across this country?
> 
> ...



As a matter of fact I am out of my lane - I do not know any Armoured units period but when people in general talk armoured they refer to tanks which are tracked. I did not see Armoured Recce mentioned at the point that I posted.  I have never been to PEI so I would never have a chance to see a tank there nor would I know what they have for training areas but then I wasn't talking about PEI - I was talking about NS.  I do know NS does not have an area that is really suitable for training Armoured.  Aldershot certainly would not do as I have walked the entire camp in a few hours - not much room for tank training and you couldn't even take the tanks from the main camp to the driving area without breaking the law. At least with Armoured Recce you have wheeled vehicles so you can travel to the driving area and surrounding country side.

As for it being RECCE not Recon - I am aware of that in regards to the Armoured Recce.  Perhaps you would be happier if I said reconnaisance instead of using a standard known abbreviation that everyone would know including all those on here that are not military and thus may not know Recce. By the way - just because someone talks about reconnaisance does not mean they are talking about Armoured Recce, when I was infantry we had a Recce Plt.

So just to make you happy - I would prefer that they set them up as a Reconnaisance Platoon and not regular Infantry.  Give them a couple APCs for colour and to draw in recruits.


----------



## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> What are you talking about?  Where did you come up with this false info?  They may fall into an organization which brings these different Units together under one 'command'.  That organization is "Information Ops", not "Intelligence"



Either bad memory (has been awhile since I worked with int)/,misunderstood/misinformed.  When I used to work with the Int boys in Halifax (when they still were part of AMA/LFAA instead of a sub-unit) it was mentioned in a conversation I had with a couple one day.  I thought they had said the others were under their umbrella.

thanks for the correction.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (8 Sep 2008)

Do you realiaze the amount of maintenance that is required for tracked vehicles? Most if not all reserve units can not support this.


----------



## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Do you realiaze the amount of maintenance that is required for tracked vehicles? Most if not all reserve units can not support this.



Don't know about anyone else here but as I do not maintain tracked vehicles so I do not know, nor do I know how much is required for any of the other vehicles we have including ships. My knowledge of tank maintenance is that an associate in the 80's did not like to fix the tracks in the mud of Gagetown when he was armoured. I do know that reserve truckers have trucks, artillery have guns, sailors have ships so I would expect that Armoured would have at least a few tanks.

Maintenance of the army, including reserve, vehicles in Halifax was done mainly by civilians and regular force vehicle techs so I would expect the same for any tracked vehicles the reserves would have.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (8 Sep 2008)

Reserve Armoured Units have G-Wagons to preform their tasks.


----------



## George Wallace (8 Sep 2008)

OK  CountDC

Drop it.  You are not a little bit outside of your Lanes; you are completely outside of your Lanes and totally taking this topic down the tubes.  

STOP NOW while you still can.


----------



## aesop081 (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> so I would expect that Armoured would have at least a few tanks.



They dont.


----------



## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Reserve Armoured Units have G-Wagons to preform their tasks.



ah - thank you for that information.  So would it be safe to assume that they do most of their work in the G-Wagons and do their training/courses requiring hands-on armoured in Gagetown or some other base using regular force tanks?


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Sep 2008)

AFAIK NO.

But I'm sure someone from the Armoured Corps will be around to say what they train on.


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## ArmyRick (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC

Who ever said that the only thing the armoured corps ever used was tanks? Notice that it is the Armoured Corps not Tank Corps. The armoured corps currently uses Leopard 1 and 2, Coyote, LAV III, Bison, M113 and G-wagon just to name a few.

I notice you have an outdated cap badge as your icon. Your statement reveal alot about how little you know.


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ah - thank you for that information.  So would it be safe to assume that they do most of their work in the G-Wagons and do their training/courses requiring hands-on armoured in Gagetown or some other base using regular force tanks?



No.  They DO NOT train on regular force tanks, with the exception of a few lucky soles who have managed to get into a Regular Force Tank Troop deploying to Afghanistan.  If you want more information on Reserve Armour Units and their role and employment, please paruse the ARMOUR Forum and perhaps some of the Units in Army.ca Wiki pages.  Other than that, perhaps this may also be of some assistance:


Welcome to Army.ca. Here are some reading references that are core to how Army.ca operates. I strongly recommend you take a moment to read through these to give you a better sense for the environment here. It will help you avoid the common pitfalls which can result in miscommunication and confusion. For those that choose not to read, their actions often lead to warnings being issued or even permanent bans.

*Army.ca Conduct Guidelines*: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Tone and Content on Army.ca: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/51970.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

*Frequently Asked Questions - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41136.0.html*

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html
Army.ca Wiki Recruiting FAQ - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Frequently_Asked_Questions
Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977
Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure: http://64.254.158.112/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf


Infantry Specific FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

CFAT practice test - http://64.254.158.112/pdf/preparing_for_aptitude_test_en.pdf

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To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.


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## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> AFAIK NO.
> 
> But I'm sure someone from the Armoured Corps will be around to say what they train on.



ok, thanks again for your information. Hopefully you are right and someone from the armoured will clear that.


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> so I would expect that Armoured would have at least a few tanks.



The Reserve side of the Corps gave up the Armour role a few years back.  All PRes Armd units that weren't Armd Recce before were rerolled Recce.  There was not a 1 for 1 exchange of the new Comm's systems or vehicles.  Life is not as it once was.


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2008)

OK

Can we return the Halifax Rifles now?


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## Nfld Sapper (8 Sep 2008)

Armoured Recce Soldier:

Overview

You will operate and maintain reconnaissance vehicle, its weapon systems and its communication equipment You will be trained to fight as members of the Combat Arms team.

What They Do

As a member of a recce vehicle crew trained as a driver or an observer, an Armoured Recce Soldier has the following primary duties : Drive and maintain the recce vehicle; 
Load, fire and maintain the recce vehicle’s machine-guns; 
Maintain and operate the recce vehicle’s radio equipment; and 
Gather and relay information about the enemy and the terrain. 


Our main operational vehicule is the Gelaendenwagen vehicle, or G-Wagon. This venicule was developped by Mercedes-Benz Canada.

This vehicule is used by both the Regular and Reserve units to provide tactical transport for the following functions of command and control, liaison, reconnaissance and military police. For reconnaissance, the vehicule can be equipped with armoured doors and front windshield and additional armour protection systems kits.


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## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> CountDC
> 
> Who ever said that the only thing the armoured corps ever used was tanks? Notice that it is the Armoured Corps not Tank Corps. The armoured corps currently uses Leopard 1 and 2, Coyote, LAV III, Bison, M113 and G-wagon just to name a few.
> 
> I notice you have an outdated cap badge as your icon. Your statement reveal alot about how little you know.



Good point - I just always associated armoured with tanks along with most people I know. 

My choice of cap badge is another subject totally that now that you have mentioned it I will have to do a search and see if there is a discussion about it already.


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ok, thanks again for your information. Hopefully you are right and someone from the armoured will clear that.



Just to be clear here...

George Wallace was Armour for...I'm going to say 30+ years both Reg and Res (correct me if I'm wrong).


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Good point - I just always associated armoured with tanks along with most people I know.
> 
> My choice of cap badge is another subject totally that now that you have mentioned it I will have to do a search and see if there is a discussion about it already.



Lunch Break is over.  Now let's get down to business.

The problems with most of the Reserves today is the Clerical Staff.  They are the ones not getting the administration done, and if they do, it is often not in a timely fashion.  Reservists bear the brunt of these screw ups in Pay and Administration and leave in droves.  This announcement now creates yet another opportunity for people who have risen to a level above their level of competence to further screw up the lives of Reservists, in the mismanagement of yet two more (perhaps even more) Reserve Units.  As we can already see, a decision as to what kind of units these are going to be hasn't even been made, just names and locations, and even that isn't completely true.

Arguments that a metropolitan area the size of Halifax/Dartmouth and surrounding areas can not support another Reserve Unit are not logical or well thought out.  

The problems of Equipment and infrastructure have to be addressed a bit more in the future to solve the problem of the "Robbing Peter to Pay Paul" fix that seems to be the state we have once again put ourselves in with the creation of these new units.


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## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> No.  They DO NOT train on regular force tanks, with the exception of a few lucky soles who have managed to get into a Regular Force Tank Troop deploying to Afghanistan.  If you want more information on Reserve Armour Units and their role and employment, please paruse the ARMOUR Forum and perhaps some of the Units in Army.ca Wiki pages.



Thank you. A few lucky souls indeed - to go armour and not get the tanks somehow seems like being short changed to me. I'm sure some would be happier with the other vehicles mentioned but I know I would alway want to get to at least drive the tanks if I was armoured.


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## aesop081 (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> - to go armour and not get the tanks somehow seems like being short changed to me.



Thats why the reserve MOC is called "armoured recce crewman" ......pretty much says it all.


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## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Lunch Break is over.  Now let's get down to business.
> 
> Arguments that a metropolitan area the size of Halifax/Dartmouth and surrounding areas can not support another Reserve Unit are not logical or well thought out.
> 
> The problems of Equipment and infrastructure have to be addressed a bit more in the future to solve the problem of the "Robbing Peter to Pay Paul" fix that seems to be the state we have once again put ourselves in with the creation of these new units.



I would agree that Halifax is large enough in population to support a new unit but will this population give them enough qualified recruits? After the earlier post of PLF having a waiting list of recruits it may have enough recruits available. With a brigade recruiting team (also mentioned earlier by someone) instead of the individual units recruiting these people could be offered a position with the new unit. I do worry about whether or not they will be able to sustain it and do we really need another unit there? Is there not another location that would benefit more from having a new unit located there?

If I was a local CO I would be concerned about losing some of my members, especially leaders, to a new unit. The unit will need leaders to run the show and train the recruits.

There is also the problem of locating the unit (nothing new there). The armouries has always been prime space that was overcrowded with the units there. Maybe this would be a good chance for them to hit the MND up for a new armouries.


----------



## Michael OLeary (8 Sep 2008)

While it may be a new unit, there's been no guarantee that the announcement involves 100 new positions.  Until that additional announcement occurs (if it occurs) we should assume it's a reallocation of existing positions, either locally, regionally or nationally.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I would agree that Halifax is large enough in population to support a new unit but will this population give them enough qualified recruits? *After the earlier post of PLF having a waiting list of recruits it may have enough recruits available*.



I did say that, and 2-3 years ago that was the case but, I will also say that at that time, the PLF had the best recruiter in the Bde, hands down.  I used this to point out that recruiting in the Hfx area was, at the time, very strong.  Most other units were in line with their targets, but PLF seemed to always be in the 100% + area WRT to that.  There are alot of units in the HRM (Army, Navy and Air Reserve) but there always has been and they've survived thus far.  100 troops sounds like alot perhaps but in reality, it is not that much, IMO.  Its certainly not enough to bleed the other units dry;  those who are interested in the part-time Navy will still go down to Scotian, those who are interested in part-time Air Force will come over to Shearwater, just like always I suspect.

To be honest, I am alittle more curious/concerned for the Armd Recce unit in PEI.  I know for awhile the numbers have been down (for various reasons).  If they stand-up as a Armd Recce unit...hmmmmm.




> There is also the problem of locating the unit (nothing new there). The armouries has always been prime space that was overcrowded with the units there. Maybe this would be a good chance for them to hit the MND up for a new armouries.



As the Halifax Armouries is a historical property, I am going to venture out on a limb and say you won't soon see no military presence there.  Before I left 36, there was some things in the works WRT to buildings but I won't comment on that until I find out the current info.  I might have to go for a drive tonight by Willow Park, Windsor Park areas and see whats on the go there.


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## CountDC (8 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> As the Halifax Armouries is a historical property, I am going to venture out on a limb and say you won't soon see no military presence there.  Before I left 36, there was some things in the works WRT to buildings but I won't comment on that until I find out the current info.  I might have to go for a drive tonight by Willow Park, Windsor Park areas and see whats on the go there.



I'm sure that there will be some form of presence there for a long time to come. Thinking more of a second new armouries that would be fully under the military control. Perhaps house PLF and the new unit there.  

hmmm - there was that corner lot at Willow Park - I know there was a problem of possible hazmat but perhaps they could clean it up and put a new building there.  Wish I still knew people at CE.


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I'm sure that there will be some form of presence there for a long time to come. Thinking more of a second new armouries that would be fully under the military control. Perhaps house PLF and the new unit there.
> 
> hmmm - *there was that corner lot at Willow Park * - I know there was a problem of possible hazmat but perhaps they could clean it up and put a new building there.  Wish I still knew people at CE.



Which did have some work done to it...and was talked about before for the possible site for expansion.  But I don't know the current scoop.


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## George Wallace (8 Sep 2008)

Facilities are a problem.  It is highly unlikely an already crowded Armouries will be their new home.  Today, it is not uncommon to see units housed in rented Storefronts or warehouses in Industrial Parks.  Dartmouth and Shearwater have properties and/or facilities.  Willow Park may be an option, as would any of the other DND properties in and around Halifax/Dartmouth/Lower Sackville.

LFAA only has to delegate the task of finding them a home, to an officer and wait the outcome of his work.

A CO, RSM and several other key positions would have to be filled quickly by LFAA to make the Unit a reality.

Recruiting, can be done at any time, and Aldershot down the road can be utilized very easily to train the new Recruits.  They don't need Armour Instructors for BMQ and SQ.  While new Recruits are being trained, a search can be made for any qualified Armour NCOs and officers, Reg and PRes, Serving or recently Retired, who may be persuaded to make up the initial cadre of the new Unit.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Sep 2008)

That infrastructure solution isn't quite as simple as it sounds.  Keep in mind the Navy "owns" all the infrastructure in Halifax, including those buildings occupied by LFAA units.  

A few years ago a plan for a new "super armouries" floundered on two points: a. the Navy wanted the plan to include DND abandoning (i.e., selling to Parks Canada for $1) both the Armouries and RA Park, and, b. they expected the Army to foot half the construction bill (even though it was a Navy proposed project to reduce the maint bill on the older infrastructure).


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## CountDC (9 Sep 2008)

I can see their point on the Army footing a chunk of the bill - the armouries is mainly used by them and not the navy.  Only time I recall the navy using it was when the Tattoo would come up.  They would use it then to practice. 

I thought the Armouries already belonged to Parks Canada as a heritage property? I was told this in 98/99 by the Adjt at 1st Fd - he was also the OC of the Armouries at the time and he was having trouble getting external work done to the place.  Pieces of the building were falling off and he had us watch for a good size one.  When he found one that he liked (as big as a football) he boxed it and sent it to them requesting that some form of maintenance be done before someone was hurt from it.

Don't know the current status at the armouries but years ago they had talked of closing the Officers Mess and have them go to RA Park thus freeing up space at the Armouries (they ended up just taking part of the mess for LFAA).  If not already done perhaps they will revisit that idea.  Transfer the officers to RA Park, move the SNCO's upstairs to the Officers Mess, move the Jr Ranks to the SNCO's and convert the Jr Ranks Mess to office space for the new unit. There would still be the problem of unit stores areas but it is a start and would cost less than a new place (although I would rather they built a new one). 

Speaking of the Armouries - did they ever get the walk through exit/entrance that CE was trying to have put in?  It was supposed to take half of the last room in the Jr Ranks (the one that was loaned as a classroom to PLF).


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## dapaterson (9 Sep 2008)

CountDC said:
			
		

> I can see their point on the Army footing a chunk of the bill - the armouries is mainly used by them and not the navy.  Only time I recall the navy using it was when the Tattoo would come up.  They would use it then to practice.



Irrelevant who uses it.  Halifax is the supporting base and must provide for its lodger units.  In Montreal, for example, a new facility was just built for HMCS Donnaconna - that's an Army base providing infra for a Navy unit.  That many bases are trying to shirk their responsibilities is an issue that does need to be addressed.


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## CountDC (9 Sep 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Irrelevant who uses it.  Halifax is the supporting base and must provide for its lodger units.  In Montreal, for example, a new facility was just built for HMCS Donnaconna - that's an Army base providing infra for a Navy unit.  That many bases are trying to shirk their responsibilities is an issue that does need to be addressed.



You are of course right - I was just saying I can see their point in trying to get the Army to pay some, especially if they wanted one. Kind of like we do for posns - I have a posn but no money, you have money but no open posn, we reach a deal - you provide your cash, I provide the posn and we share the person. Convert that to this situation - Base has the land and half the money needed, Army fund other half and they get a new facility to use for as long as they want. Worth a try and the worst case is Army says no and nothing happens.


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## geo (9 Sep 2008)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> That infrastructure solution isn't quite as simple as it sounds.  Keep in mind the Navy "owns" all the infrastructure in Halifax, including those buildings occupied by LFAA units.
> 
> A few years ago a plan for a new "super armouries" floundered on two points: a. the Navy wanted the plan to include DND abandoning (i.e., selling to Parks Canada for $1) both the Armouries and RA Park, and, b. they expected the Army to foot half the construction bill (even though it was a Navy proposed project to reduce the maint bill on the older infrastructure).



There is plenty of logic in asking the Army to generate the demand for funds for the infrastructure facilities they want built.  Same as can be said about the CF wanting to shed any building / infrastructure that has become too expensive to maintain..... 

BUT, it's CF money - not Navy OR Army money......


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## Shec (9 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Facilities are a problem.  It is highly unlikely an already crowded Armouries will be their new home.  Today, it is not uncommon to see units housed in rented Storefronts or warehouses in Industrial Parks.  Dartmouth and Shearwater have properties and/or facilities.  Willow Park may be an option, as would any of the other DND properties in and around Halifax/Dartmouth/Lower Sackville.



 Re:  http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/79655.0.html

Ahhh, a working definition of "under-housed".


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## Michael OLeary (9 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> BUT, it's CF money - not Navy OR Army money......



Sure it is, right up until one organization tries to change another's spending priorities.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Sep 2008)

I managed to get ahold of some people on the phone today...the intent (95% I was told) is for another Armd Recce unit for 36 CBG.  PEIR will remain intact.  Apparantly the drive for this was not started from 'the bottom up', if you follow me.  Re: unit strengths and recruiting in the Bde, no units are at 100% strength, none have waiting lists although recruiting is going well.  This will just be one more unit, of a different MOC, that will be competing for recruits in the HRM now.  

When I asked about infrastructure, I got "don't even f**kin mention that"  HAHAHA.  There is no firm plan, a bunch of ideas.  Back in 2003/2004 the G4 was then working on a new facility (Willow Park area) and was off to meeting with the LFAA, MARLANT and PWGSC folks, so apparantly that never went much further the last few years but may very well now.  I suspect, knowing the area, you will see the 'new' unit locate somewhere in Willow Park as an 'interim measure'.  Anyone who has been here in the area knows that, yes the CFOOs are in place, but getting people to blow the dust off them, read them and get on with it can be a different story.

The phone call was a short one, but I am going to stop in for a chat later this week before an appointment I have over on the Hfx side.


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## TN2IC (9 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I might have to go for a drive tonight by Willow Park, Windsor Park areas and see whats on the go there.



Nothing really.. just building an elevator shaft and filling in a huge pot hole on the main drag.  ;D


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## Colin Parkinson (9 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I managed to get ahold of some people on the phone today...the intent (95% I was told) is for another Armd Recce unit for 36 CBG.  PEIR will remain intact.  Apparantly the drive for this was not started from 'the bottom up', if you follow me.  Re: unit strengths and recruiting in the Bde, no units are at 100% strength, none have waiting lists although recruiting is going well.  This will just be one more unit, of a different MOC, that will be competing for recruits in the HRM now.
> 
> When I asked about infrastructure, I got "don't even f**kin mention that"  HAHAHA.  There is no firm plan, a bunch of ideas.  Back in 2003/2004 the G4 was then working on a new facility (Willow Park area) and was off to meeting with the LFAA, MARLANT and PWGSC folks, so apparantly that never went much further the last few years but may very well now.  I suspect, knowing the area, you will see the 'new' unit locate somewhere in Willow Park as an 'interim measure'.  Anyone who has been here in the area knows that, yes the CFOOs are in place, but getting people to blow the dust off them, read them and get on with it can be a different story.
> 
> The phone call was a short one, but I am going to stop in for a chat later this week before an appointment I have over on the Hfx side.



Real armour or pretend? How about the M117 for them? (stirring, stirring the pot, let simmer)


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## geo (9 Sep 2008)

well, unless the PEIR or the 8CH get hammered for some rolling stock (GWagons & Milverados), the Halifax Rifles may have to borrow a page outa the Rifles' history book.... practice "double quick time" movement of troops.


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## Infanteer (9 Sep 2008)

Awesome, another Reserve LCol and CWO.  Even better if its armoured, which means the unit will be almost completely incapable of supporting the Reg Force Armoured Corps which is, today, the most stressed Corps out there....


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## geo (9 Sep 2008)

... dunno why they have not thought of doing like they did in Winnipeg.
Starting up an engineer unit ... as a Troop / Squadron of the Fort Gary Horse.

In their own good time, once they have filled in the 1st couple of Troops, they can start on a 2nd Squadron & possibly think of making em a Regiment.  No point placing the cart before the horse (pun  )


----------



## Eye In The Sky (9 Sep 2008)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Awesome, another Reserve LCol and CWO.  Even better if its armoured, which means the unit will be almost completely incapable of supporting the Reg Force Armoured Corps which is, today, the most stressed Corps out there....



I can't agree with this, atleast not 100%.  While I believe from my own experience there is a HUGE delta in the training, experience and abilities of the Crew Commanders between the Reg and Res, most of the crews can take the PCF courses with success and file holes in the Reg units as required.  Unfortunately, with the demise of Res "Armour" units, the knowledge of basic gunnery will or already has gone away with the Cougars.  Res crmn on Class B are doing things like driving LAV for courses at the Inf School, Armour School, etc.  They filled key positions in the TacPhyOps team that went with TF 1-07.  They play a part in the HUMINT, CIMIC roles (atleast in LFAA) as well.  

While there are huge deltas in some areas, they do have a place and are contributing.


----------



## geo (9 Sep 2008)

Are Reservists the same thing as Regs ???  Of course not.
Regs do their thing for a living.  They keep up to date on their tradecraft & hone their skills day in and day out
Resrevists do their thing as a 2nd career - their tradecraft becomes rusty and ancient in short order... BUT... they bring other things to their occupation, things that are "outside" of their trade / outside of the box.
Is there a place for reservists - you betcha­


----------



## Fishbone Jones (9 Sep 2008)

Let's get back on track and try stay clear of this same bullshit discussion that we've beat to death, dug up and beat to death again. No more Reg vs Reserve crap!

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Eye In The Sky (10 Sep 2008)

I am curious where they will get their kit from.  I don't know about the Crazy 8s in Moncton but on the island, there wasn't enough kit to go around to kit out a Sqn, on the Veh or Comm side.  There are a few blackhatters in the Hfx area that might fill the RSM/SSM and Ops WO positions (one is currently in a Res Sgt-Major position in the Valley and one recently CT to the Res from his position at the Hfx CFRC).  I don't know on the Officer side (assuming they won't snatch anyone from LFAA, or double-task them). *assuming it will be a Armd Recce unit*


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Sep 2008)

Well they could just go buy a bunch of jeeps and the 5 door version for CP's, In the real world you could get 12 x 2 doors and 4 x 4 doors for $300,000 plus spare parts. For army and contracting process, more like a million by the time the vehicles arrive.


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## herman lives 1985 (19 Mar 2009)

As A former PLFus. its about time, when i was in the Halifax Rifle Cadets we tried for years to reactivate our unit and finally it has happened I cant wait to re-enlist i am going back to the unit i started out in and I am excited this unit is going to do great things.


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## TN2IC (21 Mar 2009)

Please don't tell me this is Herman that did BMQ in 2001-02 era?


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## RHFC_piper (10 May 2009)

I hope this is in the right place.
------------------------------------------

Historic Canadian military unit reactivated
Article Link



> The Halifax Rifles, a historic but defunct Canadian battle regiment, officially returned to military service Sunday, more than four decades after being disbanded.
> 
> Minister of Defence Peter MacKay was on hand for the ceremony at the Halifax armoury.
> 
> *MacKay said the unit was revived to help meet the growing demands of the Canadian Forces at home and abroad, including the mission in Afghanistan*.


_Emphasis added_

So, are the newly reactivated Halifax Rifles going to be a regular force reg? (I'm guessing not, but it was not clarified).


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## ModlrMike (10 May 2009)

I would think they would be a Reserve unit. Halifax does not have the infrastructure for a Regular Force infantry batallion. I't probably a case of too much demand for slots within the existing regiments in the Halifax area.


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## Snakedoc (10 May 2009)

For all of those interested:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090510/halifax_rifles_090510/20090510?hub=TopStories


Historic Canadian military unit reactivated
Updated Sun. May. 10 2009 5:18 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

The Halifax Rifles, a historic but defunct Canadian battle regiment, officially returned to military service Sunday, more than four decades after being disbanded. 

Minister of Defence Peter MacKay was on hand for the ceremony at the Halifax armoury. 

MacKay said the unit was revived to help meet the growing demands of the Canadian Forces at home and abroad, including the mission in Afghanistan. 

"This is part of the overall growth we hope to achieve," he said. "We set annual goals in terms of our expansion and I thought it was very symbolic today we saw our very first new recruit into the Halifax Rifles Unit." 

Brig.-Gen. David Neasmith -- commander of Canadian Land Forces, Atlantic Area -- called it a proud day. 

"We haven't reactivated a unit like this in a long, long time so this is actually very significant for the Canadian Forces," he said. 

Neasmith added it was possible the Rifles could see action in Afghanistan once it is fully staffed and trained. The unit is aiming to have 130 recruits. 

The Halifax Rifles have a long and proud history. Originally formed in 1860, prior to Confederation, the unit saw service in the North West Rebellion of 1885, and numerous overseas missions including the First and Second World Wars. 

Many prominent Canadians served in the Rifles, including two prime ministers, Sir Charles Tupper and Sir Robert Borden, three Nova Scotia premiers and many other prominent leaders in that province. 

The unit was made inactive in 1965 as part of a sweeping reorganization of the Canadian Forces.


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## Snakedoc (10 May 2009)

Looks like we posted at around the same time, mods, perhaps this thread should be merged with the original halifax rifles thread i posted in? thanks!


----------



## RHFC_piper (10 May 2009)

Found answers to my own questions;
-----------------------------------------

WHY DID PETER MACKAY REACTIVATE THE HALIFAX RIFLES?
Article Link



> On Friday, Defence Minister Peter MacKay announced the return to service of the Halifax Rifles, and the creation of a new Army Reserve unit in Yellowknife. "This new unit will lend direct support to the domestic operations commitments of the existing Reserve forces in the Halifax area," MacKay said in a statement. The Halifax Rifles will be either a reconnaissance or an infantry unit.
> 
> (In 1965, as part of a major reorganization of the Militia, the Halifax Rifles was made inactive and placed on the Supplementary Order of Battle, according to DND. Former serving members of the unit have remained active in the military community through their membership in the Halifax Rifles Armoury Association.)
> 
> In addition, the CF is creating a new Company-sized sub-unit to be assigned to one of Land Force Western Area's existing Reserve Force Infantry Battalions in Yellowknife, the DND press release states. Military leaders are currently mapping out the proposed mission and tasks for the new Yellowknife sub-unit which will enhance Canada's ability to operate in the North.



-------------------------------

THE HALIFAX RIFLES TO BE RETURNED TO SERVICE IN CEREMONY ON SUNDAY
Article Link



> Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway will preside over the Return to Service Ceremony for The Halifax Rifles, according to DND. The Ceremony will take place at 2:00 p.m. on Sunday May 10th, 2009 at the Halifax Armoury, 5674 Cunard Street, Halifax, NS.



--------------------------------
The Halifax Rifles
Article Link



> The Halifax Rifles was established as a unit in 1860. Members of this historic regiment proudly served Canada both at home and abroad, with many overseas campaigns and battle honours. As the 63rd Battalion, the unit also saw active service in Canada during the North West Rebellion of 1885. Many prominent Canadians served in the unit, including two Canadian Prime Ministers, The Hon Joseph Howe, (and three other Nova Scotia Premiers), as well as countless political and business leaders in the local community.


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## RHFC_piper (10 May 2009)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Looks like we posted at around the same time, mods, perhaps this thread should be merged with the original halifax rifles thread i posted in? thanks!



Wow... I even did a search here for "Halifax Rifles", and found nothing.  ???


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## brihard (10 May 2009)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Neasmith added it was possible the Rifles could see action in Afghanistan once it is fully staffed and trained. The unit is aiming to have 130 recruits.





Um... He said what?


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## dapaterson (10 May 2009)

Knowing him, I suspect it's the media condensing and removing common sense from his words.

After all, the CTV news article has the wrong General in the caption to their online picture - they're showing BGen O'Brien, not BGen Neasmith.  If they can't get names right, the quotes are equally suspect.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090510/halifax_rifles_090510/20090510?hub=TopStories


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## Pat_Y (11 May 2009)

Thats cool. Look at the dates on the first post till now it was only 9 years...


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## daftandbarmy (11 May 2009)

Excellent. So that means if we start now, the Airborne Regiment could be back in action by 2018!  ;D


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## Pat_Y (11 May 2009)

Wonderful thinking!   ;D


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## old medic (11 May 2009)

Halifax Rifles reborn and ready
Storied militia unit revived after 44 years
By PAT LEE Staff Reporter
Mon. May 11 - 12:38 PM
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1121296.html



> Forty-four years after retired Lt.-Col. Russell Hubley’s army reserve unit was shut down, he was proud to be in the audience to see the first recruit be sworn in to the newly reactivated Halifax Rifles.
> 
> "I’m very, very happy to see the Halifax Rifles back again," the last commanding officer of the regiment said Sunday at a ceremony held at the Halifax Armouries.
> 
> ...


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## Pat_Y (11 May 2009)

I know there was talk of this before but does anyone know the final amount of people that will be hired?


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## dapaterson (11 May 2009)

Pat_Y said:
			
		

> I know there was talk of this before but does anyone know the final amount of people that will be hired?



From the article in the Chronically Horrible:



> The unit will recruit 120 to 130 members and need to find a home for training.


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## Pat_Y (12 May 2009)

Thanks


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## Eye In The Sky (12 May 2009)

so..back on topic...

Searching the GAL for anyone with the section/sub-unit  Halifax Rifles (RCAC), I came up with 2...the OC (Maj Gallant) and the Ops O.  So....we have the OC, Ops O and 1 recruit.  Lots of room to grow! 

Maj Gallant is showing as the OC HQ Coy in the GAL.  LOL.


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## Michael OLeary (12 May 2009)

I liked this part:



> Justin Plante, 17, of Eastern Passage, had the honour of being the reserve unit’s first new recruit ....
> 
> *"I thought this would be a quick way to get in,"* said Justin, who *hopes to be a combat engineer* in the military.



After all the hardcore lobbying to create this unit, you would have thought there was a line-up of young men and women from multi-generational Halifax Rifles families waiting for the opportunity to join the family regiment.


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## ajp (12 May 2009)

Congratulations to Maj Gallant.  I know I have seen emails flying from "Islanders" and I bet a few that are away would love to be involved in the project and the Unit.  I met Gen Amy last year and I have no doubt that Maj Gallant will be hearing from him on a regular basis.  I look forward to seeing the new flag in the Conference Room with the rest.


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## daftandbarmy (13 May 2009)

I still can't believe, for a country more partial to tearing down things military than building them up, that we've actually stood up a new regiment. This bodes well for the future for the army in general and the reserves in particular. Huzzah x 3


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## Infanteer (13 May 2009)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I still can't believe, for a country more partial to tearing down things military than building them up, that we've actually stood up a new regiment. This bodes well for the future for the army in general and the reserves in particular. Huzzah x 3



How so?  We've stood up lots in the past couple years.  Do we get a Huzzah for the stand up of CANOSCOM?  I'm still trying to figure out what they do....


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## Bruce Monkhouse (13 May 2009)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Do we get a Huzzah for the stand up of CANOSCOM?  I'm still trying to figure out what they do....



Thats OK, from what I've read it doesn't appear they know either....


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## cavalryman (13 May 2009)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Thats OK, from what I've read it doesn't appear they know either....



But they do have a snazzy ninja throwing star as command badge........


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## Michael OLeary (13 May 2009)

Topic split can be followed here:

Bringing back the 19th Alberta Dragoons, split from Re: Halifax Rifles


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## Journeyman (14 May 2009)

I think the more interesting media quote, especially for new recruits bemoaning perhaps "missing out" on Afghanistan.....





> Mr. MacKay said the reservists who join the regiment will be an integral part of the Canadian Forces and may find themselves deployed to hot spots like Afghanistan, Haiti or *Sudan*.


Is that what one may call a "trial balloon"?


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## dapaterson (14 May 2009)

Not particularly.  It's known that there are currently a small number of Canadians in Sudan - Op SATURN and Op SAFARI - see http://www.comfec-cefcom.forces.gc.ca/pa-ap/ops/saturn/index-eng.asp and http://www.comfec-cefcom.forces.gc.ca/pa-ap/ops/safari/index-eng.asp


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## Journeyman (14 May 2009)

Agreed that Cdn presence in Sudan isn't news.

My idle musing was based on:
1. a growing US hate-on for Somalia, with potential for associated Ops in eastern Africa
2. reasonably new reservists aren't likely to deploy to something like Op SATURN -- line serials are more likely if there's a large-scale deployment
3. Africa's _many_ ills are seen, amongst the bleeding-hearts, as an opportunity to return to our mythical "peacekeeper" roots.
4. The government has learned the requirement to get broad Canadian buy-in to any future, large-scale military missions

Hence, I saw mentioning Sudan as a 'hotspot for deployment' as a potential trial balloon.


Time for another thread split mods?


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## dapaterson (14 May 2009)

Your mistake is in assuming the MND has a clear idea of what he's saying.  Get over that assumption and everything makes sense (or, at least, is less non-sensical).


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## CadetMez (16 May 2009)

I personally think that the rifles coming back will be a good thing, mainly because it will most likely boost the applicants for joining the army in Nova Scotia.


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## Infanteer (16 May 2009)

How will it do that?


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## CadetMez (17 May 2009)

Well considering Halifax is the capital Nova Scotia, and the rifles are coming back, and people normally tend to prefer new things, for some reason. So i'm guessing there might be a slight boost.

Its just a theory.


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## Infanteer (17 May 2009)

I don't think Halifax being the captial of Nova Scotia has much to do with any increase in recruiting.  As for people tending to prefer new things, that has no relation to recruiting in the reserves - ask the average Halagonian if they knew about a new unit being raised in their area.  Halifax has a few reserve units already, and your theory has nothing to support an increase in recruiting based upon a new Armoured Regiment there.

If you're going to raise theories here, try and base them on solid ground.


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## McG (17 May 2009)

CadetMez said:
			
		

> Its just a theory.


My theory is that this will have a minimal impact at most.  

We will not see more people join because of the availability of another capbadge in the city.  We might see a very short term rise in recruiting applications because of the free publicity in the press (and by now, we're already on the downward side of that peak).  There may be a tiny lasting increase resulting from the option of a new reserve occupation within the city.  However, I suspect that most people who want to join the reserves are not dissuaded because their preferred choice is not locally available locally; they just move on to choice 2, 3, 5 etc.  

It will be interesting to learn the effect of one more unit competing for personnel from the same pool.  I hope someone first did the assessment to determine the city can feed the additional demand.


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## dapaterson (17 May 2009)

MCG said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to learn the effect of one more unit competing for personnel from the same pool.  I hope someone first did the assessment to determine the city can feed the additional demand.



An assessment?  It is to laugh.  An MND brain fart intended to pander to a small complaining group does not come with assessment.


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## CadetMez (17 May 2009)

Sorry, i'm new here.


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## Loachman (18 May 2009)

No problem.

Just be prepared to back your theories up in future.


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## Eye In The Sky (19 May 2009)

Having worked for 36 CBG for "a while" before going back to the Reg's, I would guess that all this will do is mean the other already existing Res units (PLF, 33 Svc Bn, 33 Fd Amb, 1st Fd Reg't RCA, 723 Comm Sqn, 30 MP Coy, 3 Int Coy, as well the Air Reserve Flight at 12 Wing and HMCS Scotian on the dockyard) will have more competition for those folks interested in joining the Reserve component of the CF.

Smoke and mirrors.


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## Old and Tired (20 May 2009)

Having helped do up some of the presentations for the "Old Mafia Types" that they used in pleading their case, they did have some interesting, concrete data that was supplied to them from CFRC and freedom of information requests.

One thing that I found interesting while doing up slides was that there have been a large number of people go into both the Duke Street Recruiting center and the 36 CBG Recruiting office before it's move out of the Armouries who turned around and left because they wanted to be Armoured or Engineers.

One Construction Contractor in particular is even willing to write a clause into worker contracts to allow protected time off for employees that join the reserves.  In some cases, there not being an Army Engineer unit in Metro, some applicants are travelling to the ARAF flight either in Pictou or Bridgewater to join their preferred trade rather than join something else more local.

I'm not saying that any of this will materialise or that it's something that is needed.  I don't know.  I do know that some fairly extensive research was done to support the position that another unit of a different kind is viable from a requiting/manning point of view.


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## Michael OLeary (20 May 2009)

All well and good, but can you confirm that there were no new positions created to stand up this unit?

If that is the case, we're only robbing Peter to pay Paul once more, ensuring an armoured recce job at the expense of an infantry or logistics or artillery one.  It seems especially ironic considering the repetitive comments we see here about the mis-match between training of Reserve armoured recce soldiers and the in-trade employment opportunities on operations.


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## Old and Tired (20 May 2009)

As of 30 Apr, thee were NO NEW POSN created, that i do know.  All members that where the Rifles badge (4) are currently held on the PRL of the PLFus.  No new UIC has been created yet either.  As for gaining posn, what is happening thus far is a look at units that have been historically under strength, and by how much and taking some or all of those unfilled posn and transferring them from one UIC to another so they can be manned by the "NEW" unit.

Other than that, I've been out of the loop[ since I arrived in G'town on task.


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## McG (20 May 2009)

Old and Tired said:
			
		

> In some cases, there not being an Army Engineer unit in Metro, some applicants are travelling to the ARAF flight either in Pictou or Bridgewater to join their preferred trade rather than join something else more local.


It seems to me that there is an option for those who want the Engineer capbadge.  However, the difference between Engineers in the Army reserve and the Air reserve is very huge; pers looking for a construction trade will not find it in the Army reserves.



			
				Old and Tired said:
			
		

> One thing that I found interesting while doing up slides was that there have been a large number of people go into both the Duke Street Recruiting center and the 36 CBG Recruiting office before it's move out of the Armouries who turned around and left because they wanted to be Armoured or Engineers.


Since a new Engineer unit was not created, how many people walked out of the recruiting centre because there was not an Armd unit (and what percentage of total applicants did this group constitute)?



			
				Old and Tired said:
			
		

> One Construction Contractor in particular is even willing to write a clause into worker contracts to allow protected time off for employees that join the reserves.


Was his willingness conditional upon the creation of a new Armd or Engr unit, or is this little fact a Red Herring in the argument?


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## dapaterson (20 May 2009)

I will refrain from too much comment here; all I will say is (1) the recruiting stories are anecdotal at best (ARAF offers more employment, likely a drawing card more than "engineers not in Halifax" - an issue this fails to address; besides, ARAF will offer construction trades, something a CER in Halifax would not); (2) this was a purely political play, not a military requirement at all; and (3) the Army Reserve is over-headquartered already, adding the Halifax Rifles to the mix does the Reserves no favours.

We should go back to the original plan in '65: amalgamate the PLF and Halifax Rifles as a single unit, perpetuating both.  Problem solved.

(And then, if we really need engineers, rebadge them to 36 CER (The PLFHR)).


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## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2009)

Old and Tired said:
			
		

> One thing that I found interesting while doing up slides was that there have been a large number of people go into both the Duke Street Recruiting center and the 36 CBG Recruiting office before it's move out of the Armouries who turned around and left because they wanted to be Armoured



Well, that confirms it then.  There _*are*_ some intelligent people living in the HRM.


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## Nfld Sapper (28 May 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I will refrain from too much comment here; all I will say is (1) the recruiting stories are anecdotal at best (ARAF offers more employment, likely a drawing card more than "engineers not in Halifax" - an issue this fails to address; besides, ARAF will offer construction trades, something a CER in Halifax would not); (2) this was a purely political play, not a military requirement at all; and (3) the Army Reserve is over-headquartered already, adding the Halifax Rifles to the mix does the Reserves no favours.
> 
> We should go back to the original plan in '65: amalgamate the PLF and Halifax Rifles as a single unit, perpetuating both.  Problem solved.
> 
> (And then, if we really need engineers, rebadge them to 36 CER (The PLFHR)).



Off tangent here but.....

Not sure of the time line for 45 ES to form a Field Sqn in the HRM but I am pleased to confirm that 56 ES will stand up one Field SQN in Fredericton Sept 09.


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## ajp (29 May 2009)

EITS - You don't live in Hfx do you....LOL!


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## Eye In The Sky (29 May 2009)

ajp said:
			
		

> EITS - You don't live in Hfx do you....LOL!



Well, I said *some*... :blotto:
















(I don't include myself in the "intelligent" group though)


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## DovoNewb (10 Aug 2015)

I've been doing a little bit of googling on the old button box, and one thing to another on wikipedia led me to the Halifax rifles. 

I know now what the Supplimentary Order of Battle is, and roughly what it's for. But why did Peter McKay decide to reactivate the Halifax Rifles? I'm just curious as to how the idea would have been started to the regiment coming back to life to what it is today.

I'm sure he didn't just do it because he is from Nova Scotia as what some people in my neck of the woods think.


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## cupper (10 Aug 2015)

I know that there was a push to move the Rifles back to active status long before McKay was part of the political scene.

I was aware of active lobbying in the 80's by the Regimental Association and other retired senior military members.

He just happened to be the sitting Defense Minister when the process was finalized.


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