# Canadian Values do not include Canada for younger generation



## McG (5 Oct 2016)

The article is a lot of opinions, but the poll data on which it was based offers a potentially disturbing statistic.  http://infogr.am/a338beaa-2a13-4663-9894-3ade1151aa41

If younger generations are increasingly less inclined to feel an emotional attachment to the country, is that a national security risk?


> *CBC-Angus Reid Institute poll: Canadian millennials hold off on their love of country*
> Canadians 18 to 34 less likely to say they are proud of Canada than older Canadians
> Roshini Nair
> CBC News
> ...


http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/angus-reid-millennials-proud-canada-1.3788713


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## Ostrozac (5 Oct 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> If younger generations are increasingly less inclined to feel an emotional attachment to the country, is that a national security risk?



Nationalism as we know it today isn't necessarily humanity's natural state, and as a political force it really only starting gaining solid ground in the 18th century. It wouldn't surprise me, in an increasingly interconnected world, if some sort of post-nationalism eventually gains ground.

As to the security implications -- the good news is that it wouldn't happen in Canada alone, every nation would have to deal with citizens increasingly lacking emotional attachment to the nation as a concept -- so the risks would be balanced, shared among our enemies and allies.


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## George Wallace (5 Oct 2016)

Are risks balanced if chaos reigns?  I am not sure about that.  I would say that the risks would be greater for all.


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## vonGarvin (5 Oct 2016)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Nationalism *as we know it today* isn't necessarily humanity's natural state, and as a political force it really only starting gaining solid ground in the 18th century. It wouldn't surprise me, in an increasingly interconnected world, if some sort of post-nationalism eventually gains ground.


I highlighted that part because I think you're bang on.  The so-called "nation-state" (which goes beyond a people and instead groups together _peoples_ is, as you said, a relatively newer phenomenon.  Think to "Germany".  Today, one would talk of centuries of "German" history, when it's really centuries of "german" history.  Before 1870, it was Prussian/Hessian/Swabian/Bavarian/Pomeranian (etc) history. 

So, looking away from the old,white version of a Rough Rider Canada and ahead to the polyglot hybrid Canada of the 21st Century and beyond, will we see a new "-ism" that will replace "nationalism" or even "federalism"?  Only time will tell, I suppose.


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## GR66 (5 Oct 2016)

I'd hesitate to automatically equate "pride" with "loyalty".  

Where our parents and grandparents were brought up to think "My country, right or wrong", the media typically spoke with a single voice, the cultural face that was promoted was much more homogeneous, and the external threats much more monolithic in nature.

Today we have access to much more information which is often much more critical (or at least questioning) of our leaders, institutions and the perceived "national culture" of our past.  With a much brighter spotlight on things like Residential Schools, 3rd World conditions on reserves, perceived (or real) racial biases among some members of law enforcement, internment camps, economic inequality, sexual violence, etc, etc, etc, it's quite possible for people to be less (blindly?) proud of our country and more demanding of change/improvement.  I don't think that necessarily means that those people are any less loyal to their country.  

I'd be curious to see a poll that asks younger Canadians if they think Canada is the best country in the world to live in.  They may not think Canada is perfect or without fault, but they may still recognize that it is better than most other countries.

This Buzzfeed poll (https://www.buzzfeed.com/laurenstrapagiel/millennials-think-canada-is-the-cool?utm_term=.bfLkZvPEG#.vwl0NLGm6) seems to suggest that Millennials worldwide think Canada is the best, but admittedly it doesn't tell us how Canadian Millennials specifically feel about Canada.


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## dimsum (5 Oct 2016)

GR66 said:
			
		

> I'd hesitate to automatically equate "pride" with "loyalty".
> 
> Where our parents and grandparents were brought up to think "My country, right or wrong", the media typically spoke with a single voice, the cultural face that was promoted was much more homogeneous, and the external threats much more monolithic in nature.
> 
> ...



This makes me think of The Newsroom, specifically this scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjMqda19wk


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Oct 2016)

the problem is that people might start identifying purely on a regional basis, possibly going smaller and smaller till you get a tribal society and we have seen what they are like. Global thinking is for the relaxed and well fed. Modern society can degenerate very quickly as it is very dependent on everything working. Nationalism got bad rap but it was better than what came before.


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## Kirkhill (6 Oct 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> the problem is that people might start identifying purely on a regional basis, possibly going smaller and smaller till you get a tribal society and we have seen what they are like. Global thinking is for the relaxed and well fed. Modern society can degenerate very quickly as it is very dependent on everything working. Nationalism got bad rap but it was better than what came before.



Got it in one.

The question is - how far from the dinner table do your allegiances extend.


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## biernini (6 Oct 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Global thinking is for the relaxed and well fed.


Good point, which as the article spells out explains why Millenials think less of Canada (and globalism in general). It's because they are increasingly worried with good reason that they cannot expect to be as well relaxed nor perhaps even as well fed as older generations.


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## Ostrozac (6 Oct 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Global thinking is for the relaxed and well fed.



Good point. And the flipside of that statement is that the nervous and the angry think locally. Not much national spirit going on in Iraq or Syria or Libya right now -- it's all local loyalties. So who does that leave loyal to the nation state?


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## Lightguns (6 Oct 2016)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Good point. And the flipside of that statement is that the nervous and the angry think locally. Not much national spirit going on in Iraq or Syria or Libya right now -- it's all local loyalties. So who does that leave loyal to the nation state?



The Nation State is a post colonial contrivance in the ME and Africa doomed to immediate failure in the face of ethnic loyalty.  In the west it was bore out of wars of absolutism and submission to a single ruler or ruling concept morphing from the God given ruler (except the Commonwealth) to some form of political system.  Later in the West the nation state was defined by it's industrial prosperity and the working together to bring that birthright to all members of the nation state.  Those rulers, that prosperity is almost gone and the political system is in much disrepute.  

The all doctrines of our political elite is simply partisan and corrupt, plus we no longer teach citizenship to our youth.  Now our new government is beginning to act like we are a borderless state or post nation state.  So no one really believes in the nation state anymore.  The nation state itself is only valid if it is homogeneous, most nation states are no longer so but China and Russia who have very little minorities are still effective at commanding the loyalty of their subjects.  As for Canada, the gutting of Canada culture by the government has left us a tribes in a former nation state, although Quebec is still able to act as a nation state for some reason, it too is cracking as evidenced by the waning support for independence.


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## Lumber (6 Oct 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> The Nation State is a post colonial contrivance in the ME and Africa doomed to immediate failure in the face of ethnic loyalty.  In the west it was bore out of wars of absolutism and submission to a single ruler or ruling concept morphing from the God given ruler (except the Commonwealth) to some form of political system.  Later in the West the nation state was defined by it's industrial prosperity and the working together to bring that birthright to all members of the nation state.  Those rulers, that prosperity is almost gone and the political system is in much disrepute.
> 
> The all doctrines of our political elite is simply partisan and corrupt, plus we no longer teach citizenship to our youth.  Now our new government is beginning to act like we are a borderless state or post nation state.  So no one really believes in the nation state anymore.  The nation state itself is only valid if it is homogeneous, most nation states are no longer so but China and Russia who have very little minorities are still effective at commanding the loyalty of their subjects.  As for Canada, the gutting of Canada culture by the government has left us a tribes in a former nation state, although Quebec is still able to act as a nation state for some reason, it too is cracking as evidenced by the waning support for independence.



I disagree. As has been said, when the nation state fails, people will identify along ethnic/tribal lines. What does that leave us in Canada? I literally have zero identity other than as a Canadian. I don't have an strong, extended family roots and no particularly identifiable culture (other than Canadian), and I don't see much of that in a lot of Canadians (except Quebec).

Maybe I'm of the minority with this, but if the idea of "Canada" nation-state fails (which I don't think it is), then literally the next indefinable group that I can lean on and associate with is my immediate family (well, there is the military, but that to me is also part of the nation state).


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## Lightguns (6 Oct 2016)

I would modify my statement to add that Canadian is one of the tribes in Canada.  But it is a faction, not a majority.  I am sure that there would be those that would ID as Canadian in a failed Canada.  There are a lot more that would ID as a religion, as a province group, as racial group, as a local area group.  The potential tribes in Canada is pretty unlimited.


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## Kirkhill (6 Oct 2016)

Canadian tribes?

First Nations, obviously.
Quebecois - but not necessarily a monoblock.
Maritimers.
Newfs.
Westerners (to include Northern Ontario and the BC Interior).
Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island.
GTA (to include Southern Ontario).
Montreal (to include Ottawa).


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## Lightguns (6 Oct 2016)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Canadian tribes?
> 
> First Nations, obviously.
> Quebecois - but not necessarily a monoblock.
> ...



Those are our current divisions, lets look at the martimes:

Acadians in North NB
Acadians in South NS
Three FN groups
Cape Breton
PEI
Halifax area
Anglo South NB
Each group would make a play to include living space from rural areas.  

Really we need to look at the dissolution of Yugoslavia as a model to see how the multi ethnic state crumbles.  Towns, cities, districts, distinct ethnic groups and distinct geographical locations fracture.  although there are political and culture differences between Yugo and Canada, there are is cause to review the model in the case of Canada devolving.  Big difference is I doubt there will be any UN blue hats coming to our rescue as our resources will prove a temptation for economic and military big three.


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## Pusser (6 Oct 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Really we need to look at the dissolution of Yugoslavia as a model to see how the multi ethnic state crumbles.  Towns, cities, districts, distinct ethnic groups and distinct geographical locations fracture.  although there are political and culture differences between Yugo and Canada, there are is cause to review the model in the case of Canada devolving.  Big difference is I doubt there will be any UN blue hats coming to our rescue as our resources will prove a temptation for economic and military big three.



Good example of what ethnic division can do, but I think it would be tough to argue that the blue hats rescued former Yugoslavia.  Individual parts of the UN force managed to do some amazing things, but it was not until IFOR/SFOR arrived that any real "rescuing" was done.

On a different note, I can't help but think that education may have something to do with this.  For years now, the education system across the country has exposed a lot of our sordid past (residential schools, Chinese head tax, Japanese internment, rejection of Jews, etc.), but done little to educate the population on those things we should be damn proud of.  There is no denying that there are a few episodes of our history of which we should be rightfully appalled, but there many others in which we can take great pride.  We need to talk about those more.


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## Lightguns (6 Oct 2016)

There is a really good book by a Canadian Colonel who was paid to watch internal trends.  He put together a scenario for the early 2000s that is a bit dated now but is a good read in how quickly Canada could disappear into civil war without strong central Canadian identity and support; "Uprising" by Douglas Bland.


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## Kirkhill (6 Oct 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Those are our current divisions, lets look at the martimes:
> 
> Acadians in North NB
> Acadians in South NS
> ...



Agreed entirely Lightguns.

Ultimately centrifugal forces will exploit any dividing lines ..... until you are right back to the dining table.  And even there there is no guarantee of harmony and unity.


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## The Bread Guy (6 Oct 2016)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> The question is - how far from the dinner table do your allegiances extend.


That was EXACTLY the phrase I heard used by people directly touched by the Yugoslav war in the 90's - a _lot_.



			
				Lightguns said:
			
		

> There is a really good book by a Canadian Colonel who was paid to watch internal trends.  He put together a scenario for the early 2000s that is a bit dated now but is a good read in how quickly Canada could disappear into civil war without strong central Canadian identity and support; "Uprising" by Douglas Bland.


All I'll say about this book is that it's a cool read, but it's based on a level of uniform, centralized C&C on the part of the OPFOR that is IMHO unlikely to happen anytime soon - or ever.

A better, more focused read by the same author, dealing more with specific vulnerabilities (none of which are based on Canadian identity), taking advantage of them and what to do to cancel them out, would be this (52 page PDF).


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## Colin Parkinson (6 Oct 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> On a different note, I can't help but think that education may have something to do with this.  For years now, the education system across the country has exposed a lot of our sordid past (residential schools, Chinese head tax, Japanese internment, rejection of Jews, etc.), but done little to educate the population on those things we should be damn proud of.  There is no denying that there are a few episodes of our history of which we should be rightfully appalled, but there many others in which we can take great pride.  We need to talk about those more.



exactly, it's all negative teaching and guilt complexing


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## a_majoor (7 Oct 2016)

An interesting counterpart to this discussion is the growth of the so called "Alt Right", which is still a rather nebulous concept, but generally embraces nationalism vs globalism, and advocates attaching to some sort of identity or identifier (I have seen "Alt-White", which is pretty much like it sounds, "Alt-West" which often involves a strong Christian identity component as they define Christianity as one of the pillars of Western civilization, and even "Alt-Lite", who are more or less people who are not satisfied with the way things are arranged right now, but have not chosen an "identity", so are essentially without a "tribe").

In some senses this is a mirror image of leftist identity politics, where the traditional memes of liberalism (properly identified), Individual liberty, freedom of speech and association, unfettered use of property and the Rule of Law are essentially linked to the Alt-Right identity group of choice. A typical Alt West argument would suggest that liberalism can only exist in Christian societies since these societies are the ones which developed these ideas and institutions in the first place.

This is a riff from Samuel Huntington's ideas developed in the The Clash of Civilizations, which spoke of "Civilizations" as being defined by their interpretation of ideas like human rights, justice, rule of law and the role of citizens in society. Certainly there is a strong case that modern Progressivism and Socialism in general are alien ideas to Enlightenment Western civilizations, built as they are on individualism rather than collectivism. One can argue that manifestations like the Brexit and Donald Trump are expressions of the "Alt-Right", and symbols of its growth and development.

In long discussions over coffee with my politically minded friends they mostly discount the idea that Canada's political system or institutional culture would support or allow the rise of a Canadian Donald Trump, which suggests that these feelings of disconnect among younger Canadians will have different outlets; possibly ones we would rather not see.....


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## Kirkhill (7 Oct 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> exactly, it's all negative teaching and guilt complexing



No, no.  It's deprogramming.  What you and I learned was propaganda.  /sarcasm


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## biernini (7 Oct 2016)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> An interesting counterpart to this discussion is the growth of the so called "Alt Right", which is still a rather nebulous concept, but generally embraces nationalism vs globalism, and advocates attaching to some sort of identity or identifier (I have seen "Alt-White", which is pretty much like it sounds, "Alt-West" which often involves a strong Christian identity component as they define Christianity as one of the pillars of Western civilization, and even "Alt-Lite", who are more or less people who are not satisfied with the way things are arranged right now, but have not chosen an "identity", so are essentially without a "tribe").
> 
> In some senses this is a mirror image of leftist identity politics, where the traditional memes of liberalism (properly identified), Individual liberty, freedom of speech and association, unfettered use of property and the Rule of Law are essentially linked to the Alt-Right identity group of choice. A typical Alt West argument would suggest that liberalism can only exist in Christian societies since these societies are the ones which developed these ideas and institutions in the first place.
> 
> ...


You're like the chiral version of Walter Sobchak, where instead of everything being about the tragedy of the war in Vietnam everything is instead about the dangers of leftists, progressives and socialists.

Which I still find rather funny considering Western militaries are some of the most progressive and socialist institutions on the planet.

Be that as it all may, Canadian millenials are likely less patriotic for many of the same reasons that at least one modern generation before was likely less patriotic; that generation would be the 'boomers during their early adulthood.  If a powerful subset of one's parents and parents' parents have more or less openly conspired with the blessing of the state to leave behind a generally less secure, less generally prosperous world (which isn't really a subjective matter of education) then it can be hardly surprising that uplifting notions like good national character no matter how true bring little more than cold comfort, if not sneers of derision.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Oct 2016)

The Vietnam war might have been short circuited if Truman had not supported the French re-claiming it's colonies, the US resisted getting drawn in till it became evident that the Communists had no such concerns. Chin Peng confirmed in his book that Communist China did have a "domino plan" for SE Asia. Where the US failed was in exploiting the historical tensions between China and Vietnam. By 1973, North Vietnam had exhausted itself, had the US remained in south Vietnam, the peace treaty would have held and perhaps we would be seeing a reunification of the country under a less authoritarian government. The US worried far more about civilian causality than the North Vietnamese government ever did.


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## jollyjacktar (7 Oct 2016)

But now, looking at what Vietnam has become today.  Is it a nasty country?  Are the people oppressed or their neighbors as in NK?  I have never travelled there, or intend to but in speaking with westerners who choose to live there nowadays, they speak well of the place.   :dunno:


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Oct 2016)

yes it has come a long way, a benevolent dictatorship, as long as you don't piss off the government or someone connected, they leave you alone. However a South Vietnamese government would have gotten to this point likely in the late 80's looking very much like South Korea. hard to say what would have happened in the North, that region was the "breadbasket" of the country, so unless they badly screwed up they would not starve, mind you North Korea used to be as well.


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## a_majoor (7 Oct 2016)

biernini said:
			
		

> You're like the chiral version of Walter Sobchak, where instead of everything being about the tragedy of the war in Vietnam everything is instead about the dangers of leftists, progressives and socialists.



There are about 100 million ghosts from the 20th century who would like to speak to you about the dangers of Leftists, Progressives and Socialists.


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## biernini (23 Oct 2016)

Hands up from anyone who thinks Millenials don't already know this, and have known this for years now? And yet we have hundreds of thousands of third world villagers on temporary work visas to fill alleged labour shortages, also something very well known by those whiny, unpatriotic Millenials.


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## biernini (23 Oct 2016)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> There are about 100 million ghosts from the 20th century who would like to speak to you about the dangers of Leftists, Progressives and Socialists.


Pardon me, but somehow I don't think Millenials who are fed up with neoliberal economics, neoconservative foreign policy and politics beholden to both are on some greasy slope to genocide. Colour me crazy.


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## Brad Sallows (23 Oct 2016)

Oh, but they are.

It always starts out with good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo.  But some people don't want to go along, so they must be forced.  And they resist further, so they must be forced more strongly.  Collectivist solutions inevitably require a degree of totalitarianism, which promotes recourse to tyranny.

And one greasy slope later - as has happened so often before - there is your democide (genocide is the wrong term).


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Oct 2016)

You know, Brad, I am not a Millenial, not by a long shot (unless you are basing yourself on the past millennium  ;D), but you are starting to sound like Yoda: "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger to hate and hate, to suffering!"

I am sorry, but good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo is how every new generation has seen the world, and to me that is a positive, not a dangerous slippery slope. Without it no one gets a drive to try and make things better. Satisfaction with the status quo through all generations would have kept us all nomadic hunter-gatherers tribes in Africa.

So I for one am glad that the younger generations have always pushed against the current one's way of doing things, as have we. Has it led at time in some bad directions that resulted in atrocities? Yes, but as much from the leftist, progressives and socialists as from the rightist, conservatives and fascists to be frank.

As for the Millenials themselves, I have two sons who are from that generation. I get to interact with them and their friends all the time and must say that they impress me as being just as we were at their age. So they are not quite as patriotic as we were (I would say bull to that one: look at them rooting for Canada at the olympics or World cups). What did we expect: they are the first generation that has been raised with wonderful tools that gives them access not only to everything that is going on in the world around them, but to communicating in a social way with the ordinary people of all nations. It's only normal that they would take a world view first. It does not means they would not volunteer en masse to serve if our country was somehow threatened. I suspect they would.


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## Jed (23 Oct 2016)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> You know, Brad, I am not a Millenial, not by a long shot (unless you are basing yourself on the past millennium  ;D), but you are starting to sound like Yoda: "Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger, anger to hate and hate, to suffering!"
> 
> I am sorry, but good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo is how every new generation has seen the world, and to me that is a positive, not a dangerous slippery slope. Without it no one gets a drive to try and make things better. Satisfaction with the status quo through all generations would have kept us all nomadic hunter-gatherers tribes in Africa.
> 
> ...



Generalizations about any demographic tend to be in error for a minority of the particular demographic.

I recall the very broad ' baby boomer generation. ' The youth of today tend to think the whole age group was pot smoking rebels in their day before adapting to the more conservative attitudes.

What I don't recall from the ' baby boomer' generation was the passive-aggressive, whiny entitlement attitudes that seems to be so prevalent in today's later Gen-x ers and Millennials. Thank God there are many youth who resist the trend and are blessed with critical thinking and common sense.


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## dapaterson (23 Oct 2016)

Jed said:
			
		

> What I don't recall from the ' baby boomer' generation was the passive-aggressive, whiny entitlement attitudes that seems to be so prevalent in today's later Gen-x ers and Millennials. Thank God there are many youth who resist the trend and are blessed with critical thinking and common sense.



Try to introduce means tests for government support to their generation, or point out that their lack of fiscal discipline has saddled future generations with huge debt, and you'll see the Boomer whiny entitlement come out.


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## Kirkhill (23 Oct 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Try to introduce means tests for government support to their generation, or point out that their lack of fiscal discipline has saddled future generations with huge debt, and you'll see the Boomer whiny entitlement come out.



Actually DAP, it was "The Greatest Generation" (WW2) and their parents (WW1 and the Depression) that voted in Roosevelt's New Deal and Attlee's Welfare State fit for heroes.  MacKenzie King, Pearson and Douglas were late to the party.


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## Good2Golf (23 Oct 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Try to introduce means tests for government support to their generation, or point out that their lack of fiscal discipline has saddled future generations with huge debt, and you'll see the Boomer whiny entitlement come out.



 :nod:

Of course downplaying that it will be paid in significant part by the general income from the taxes of all, including the Millenials...


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## Brad Sallows (23 Oct 2016)

The only good thing about the extension of the ORPP into a CPP expansion is that it doesn't have much effect on those with few remaining contribution years remaining.  Undoubtedly, though, in general the younger generations will figure out some way to kick the can as the past ones have - unless there is no remaining way to prevent the music from stopping.


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## Brad Sallows (23 Oct 2016)

>I am sorry, but good intentions and dissatisfaction with the status quo is how every new generation has seen the world, and to me that is a positive, not a dangerous slippery slope.

Fair enough, but the dissatisfaction of the 1920s/30s didn't turn out very well; and the dissatisfaction of the 1960s can be traced to some not very successful programs and some substantial commitment overhangs today.  I suppose I am the pessimist here: the damage that has been done and the lives lost far outweighs the good that has been done and the lives that have been improved where politics is involved*.

*The caveat: most of the lives that have been improved I attribute to technology and business (selfishness), not to any political/social reformers.


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## biernini (23 Oct 2016)

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Actually DAP, it was "The Greatest Generation" (WW2) and their parents (WW1 and the Depression) that voted in Roosevelt's New Deal and Attlee's Welfare State fit for heroes.  MacKenzie King, Pearson and Douglas were late to the party.


The "Greatest Generation" whittled that debt to GDP ratio down to 31.70 percent in 1974, and has since ballooned to well over 100 under the care and control of the 'boomers. Household debt in America grew from essentially nothing around 1950 and remained around 50% through to the seventies before exploding to almost 130% of disposable income just before the Great Recession, and still hovers over 100%. Ominously this is presently at over 160% in Canada. State/Province and Municipal debt have all followed similar trends.

It's absolutely ludicrous to blame the present debt load that is expected to be carried by the Millenials and beyond as a legacy of FDR et al.


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## a_majoor (23 Oct 2016)

I have mentioned in past political threads that we are entering an era where the sorts of ideas championed by current political parties and the social and political structures that have been created are no longer effectively answering the questions of today or reflecting the social, economic or demographic changes we see all around us.

In the past, this has set the stage for some huge upheavals, at the mildest watching entire industries and political parties vanish all the way to revolutions overturning nations. In between, we also see nations in turmoil being overtaken by ruthless dictators, most of whom receive at least the passive acceptance of the population (yes, even the Afghan people welcomed the Taliban at first) with the promise of ending chaos and providing stability.

Many young people see opportunities are lacking, and a bleak future paying off debts incurred by today's reckless political spending. This is compounded by their lack of proper education (speaking anecdotally, I have taught leadership candidates since the 1990's and each crop has greater difficulty in reasoning and communication, even if they are probably as smart in raw IQ as the ones before. They simply never have been _taught_ how to think, analyse or plan, or how to use the English language effectively. This isn't just confined to the military population, dig up some old newspapers and read letters to the editor, or even look at how newspaper and magazine articles have been dumbed down over the decades).

So the younger generation can sense they have been handed a raw deal compared to the past, and don't have the tools available to do something about it (yet). People who move to radical Islam, or start moving with the Alt-Right, or study Anarcho-Capitalism are all seeking the new tools, new social, economic and political institutions that _will_ provide workable answers to the problems and issues they face.

That will be a brutal evolutionary process, and Marnie Le Pen, the AdF, Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump are models of what Canada and the world's politics will look  like as the future unfolds. Many Alt-Right bloggers believe that identiy politics are replacing ideological politics as more and more institutions are captured by the ideas of "identity" and "diversity" (a very sad development in my mind), and it is an easy route to travel, since humans are inherently tribal in nature. Other models have been proposed, and of course old models like the "New Order" are making a rapid comeback as well  Bernie Sanders could easily have said "Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, niente contro lo Stato." and millions of Bernie Bros would have fallen all over themselves.

What "values" younger Canadians will chose will probably end up being the ones which promise to provide them with the best personal outcomes. If Canada survives in a way we would still identify with after that transition is interesting to contemplate.


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## Edward Campbell (24 Oct 2016)

biernini said:
			
		

> The "Greatest Generation" whittled that debt to GDP ratio down to 31.70 percent in 1974, and has since ballooned to well over 100 under the care and control of the 'boomers. Household debt in America grew from essentially nothing around 1950 and remained around 50% through to the seventies before exploding to almost 130% of disposable income just before the Great Recession, and still hovers over 100%. Ominously this is presently at over 160% in Canada. State/Province and Municipal debt have all followed similar trends.
> 
> It's absolutely ludicrous to blame the present debt load that is expected to be carried by the Millenials and beyond as a legacy of FDR et al.



The data I have ~ *for Canada* ~ is slightly different, although the pattern is the same:

Canada's national (federal, only) public debt was down to about 20% of GDP in the late 1960s.

It began to climb, rapidly in the 1970s and the rate of growth was not constrained (in other words spending was allowed to continue even when it was, fairly obviously, unaffordable) and by the mid 1990s (only 25 years after the _spending spree_ began, it was at 60% of GDP. 

The Chrétien government took action ~ including "offloading" expenses onto AB, BC and ON ~ and by 2008 the debt had been reduced to a more manageable 30+% of GDP. But, remember, please that this was the federal government's debt, only ... we, as taxpayers, are on the hook for federal and provincial (and local) debts and, circa 2000 provincial debts, beyond just Quebec's, began to grow at an alarming rate.

The Great Recession drove borrowing up again and by 2012 it was at 38% of GDP.

My, _personal_, analysis: pent up _*demand*_ for social services ~ which was led by the "Greatest Generation" which had endured/survived/suffered through the _Great Depression_ and then fought World War II and was convinced that it wanted neither for its children  and grandchildren ~ was finally met by someone (Pierre Trudeau) who was willing to open the _*supply*_ valve ... all the way. No prime minister since, not Mulroney, not Chrétien, not Harper and certainly not Justin Trudeau, had the guts to stop the bleeding. We want our social services, we feel "entitled to our entitlements," we believe that the "the land is strong" and that there is an endless supply of someone else's money that can be spent on us ... woe the politician who disagrees.

Now that Canada's two largest provinces, with over half the population, are both economic _weak sisters_, both with _ginormous_ public debts of their own, we look a lot worse than the national debt numbers (still in the 30s) would indicate, in fact, at a (somewhat educated) guess we are somewhere in the 90% to 110% range of debt:GDP.


----------



## ArmyRick (24 Oct 2016)

Got a question and need some military straight up no-nonsense thoughts or maybe even if possible, facts. Let me know if its opinion or fact on this.

Has anybody heard of the mega-rich George Soros? Apparently all over facebook that he is super wealthy and supports everything liberal or "left-sided"

There is rumblings he backed Trudeau and is backing Mrs Clinton. Thoughts on him? Info?

I put this question here because all the allegations seem to indicate he is a "string puller" of the world puppets or this just conspiracy garble?

On that note, does anybody know of some alleged UN agenda 2030 to make the world all one happy place (where everybody but the super elite are equally depressed)?


----------



## Lumber (24 Oct 2016)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Got a question and need some military straight up no-nonsense thoughts or maybe even if possible, facts. Let me know if its opinion or fact on this.
> 
> Has anybody heard of the mega-rich George Soros? Apparently all over facebook that he is super wealthy and supports everything liberal or "left-sided"
> 
> ...



George Thoros is just a really rich guy. He uses his considerable money and influence to support various causes that he personally identifies with. He's supports various pro-democratic movements, and his a huge philanthropists. 

Many people assume that this means he is part of a huge global conspiracy to shape the direction of world politics. I think he's just a guy with a lot of money throwing it and things that he thinks are important. The only difference between him and the people on this site is that he actually has money and influence. I don't see any conspiracy or anything wrong with him.


----------



## a_majoor (24 Oct 2016)

Many of the various foundations which are directly or indirectly supported by Soros do end up in Canadian politics.  Vivian Krause has documented this (one article here, but this has also been extensively documented in the National Post.

Avaas, a spinoff of Moveon.Org, also entered Canadian politics in the 2011 elections, in an attempt to influence voters against the Conservative Party. And much of the influence peddling that Krause and others document involve chains of payments resembling money laundering so a "Canadian" group can fund activism without seeming to be the puppet of an American organization.

And Soros funded organizations all fall on the hard left end of the political spectrum.

While it is his money and he is free to fund whatever he wants, it is a bit chilling to know that _at least_ $300 million dollars is being spent by foreign lobby groups to cripple a resource sector worth 8% of Canada's economy, or that while rabid calls are constantly being made in the United States to "eliminate big money" from politics, one of the biggest money sources seems conspicuously absent whenever big donors are being publicly brought out for shaming attacks.

So while Soros isn't the head of SPECTRE or anything like that I would suggest he is certainly an individual who should be watched and reported on much more.


----------



## Lumber (24 Oct 2016)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Many of the various foundations which are directly or indirectly supported by Soros do end up in Canadian politics.  Vivian Krause has documented this (one article here, but this has also been extensively documented in the National Post.
> 
> Avaas, a spinoff of Moveon.Org, also entered Canadian politics in the 2011 elections, in an attempt to influence voters against the Conservative Party. And much of the influence peddling that Krause and others document involve chains of payments resembling money laundering so a "Canadian" group can fund activism without seeming to be the puppet of an American organization.
> 
> ...



 :goodpost:

The contentious issue is, IMO, that the "head of SPECTRE" is exactly how a lot of people (including some on this site) view George Thoros. A polarizing figure to say the least.


----------



## Journeyman (24 Oct 2016)

Jed said:
			
		

> Thank God there are many youth who resist the trend and are blessed with critical thinking and common sense.


Please ask them to join this site.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (24 Oct 2016)

The US version of this discussion http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/michael-j-totten/children-revolution


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Oct 2016)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> ... Bernie Sanders could easily have said _*"Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, niente contro lo Stato."*_ and millions of Bernie Bros would have fallen all over themselves ...


And if you don't know where the bit in yellow came from, it wasn't from a socialist ...


			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> Please ask them to join this site.


And post!  ;D


----------



## Brad Sallows (24 Oct 2016)

>And if you don't know where the bit in yellow came from, it wasn't from a socialist ...

Benito and Iosef didn't differ much.  Substitute "party nomenklatura" for "aristocracies" and you're all the way there.


----------



## The Bread Guy (24 Oct 2016)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >And if you don't know where the bit in yellow came from, it wasn't from a socialist ...
> 
> Benito and Iosef didn't differ much.  Substitute "party nomenklatura" for "aristocracies" and you're all the way there.


... and uniform colours, but agree 150% - while some might disagree, totalitarian is totalitarian is totalitarian ...


----------



## Retired AF Guy (24 Oct 2016)

Lumber said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> The contentious issue is, IMO, that the "head of SPECTRE" is exactly how a lot of people (including some on this site) view George Thoros. A polarizing figure to say the least.



And the left have their own bogymen in the  Koch Brothers.


----------



## a_majoor (25 Oct 2016)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And if you don't know where the bit in yellow came from, it wasn't from a socialist ...And post!  ;D



Mussolini always considered himself a "man of the Left", and Fascism is a subset of Socialism (the "Fascism is Right Wing" trope is Soviet era propaganda from the 1930's, although Stalin may indeed had felt that things like Fascism and National Socialism were to the "right" of International Socialism).

And I wouldn't have been shocked at all to hear Bernie Sanders proclaim "Tutto nello Stato,niente al di fuori dello Stato,nulla contro lo Stato", since there is effectively no other way to fulfill his promises.....


----------



## The Bread Guy (25 Oct 2016)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Mussolini always considered himself a "man of the Left" ...


... right up until he got kicked out of the Italian Socialist Party during WW1 because he liked that particular fight, right?


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Oct 2016)

I see that he was kicked out over a disagreement on support for the war.  I didn't see anything which proclaimed the Italian Socialist Party to be the arbiter of who is and is not "a man of the Left".

The problem remains: recycling old ideas without recycling old totalitarianism.


----------



## Kirkhill (25 Oct 2016)

On today's agenda:

The ownership of the means of production;

The brotherhood of man;

The role of the church.

Yes or no?


----------



## George Wallace (26 Oct 2016)

>

Millennial International


----------



## a_majoor (26 Oct 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> >
> 
> Millennial International





You owe me a new keyboard!!!!!


----------



## AbdullahD (26 Oct 2016)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> You owe me a new keyboard!!!!!



Well apparently you all owe me a new audi for my birthday and $2,900/mo.. if I can get like 3 or like 4 sponsors.. I am GOLden!


----------



## Lightguns (27 Oct 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> the problem is that people might start identifying purely on a regional basis, possibly going smaller and smaller till you get a tribal society and we have seen what they are like. Global thinking is for the relaxed and well fed. Modern society can degenerate very quickly as it is very dependent on everything working. Nationalism got bad rap but it was better than what came before.



Band tribalism is the natural state of man, the ability to see and hourly connect with one's confers as we were in pre-history, as we are in today's social settings is a normal state.  The Nation state has run it's course, it no longer provides protection under law and order because of liberalized justice, it no longer provides economic opportunity because of globalism, it is no longer homogeneous because of liberalized immigration, it is no longer safe because war is now played out on it's streets on it's citizens.  Other than a hollow "I am Canadian" which means dynamically opposite things depending on which Canadian you talk to, there is actually little that binds us beyond the fear of taking the next step of dissolving ourselves.

Edit:  All humans are out for themselves to some extent.  We train them to be something more but we train a very small portion of the population.  This generation is not seeing the benefits of being Canadian.  There are no quality jobs with pensions and benefits, there is no home ownership, there is no vacations, none of the future their parents and grandparents enjoy. The lack of opportunity for the majority is incredible and more incredible how quickly it came about, less than one generation we sold our prosperity.  In 1977 I was looking forward to a life of steady job at the local plant making high union wages with minimum education.  In 2016 my grandkids are looking at minimum wage with high education in the hopes of competing for one the few high wage jobs that still exist locally.  We mismanaged our nation for the short term gain of ourselves.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (27 Oct 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Band tribalism is the natural state of man, the ability to see and hourly connect with one's confers as we were in pre-history, as we are in today's social settings is a normal state.  The Nation state has run it's course, it no longer provides protection under law and order because of liberalized justice, it no longer provides economic opportunity because of globalism, it is no longer homogeneous because of liberalized immigration, it is no longer safe because war is now played out on it's streets on it's citizens.  Other than a hollow "I am Canadian" which means dynamically opposite things depending on which Canadian you talk to, there is actually little that binds us beyond the fear of taking the next step of dissolving ourselves.
> 
> Edit:  All humans are out for themselves to some extent.  We train them to be something more but we train a very small portion of the population.  This generation is not seeing the benefits of being Canadian.  There are no quality jobs with pensions and benefits, there is no home ownership, there is no vacations, none of the future their parents and grandparents enjoy. The lack of opportunity for the majority is incredible and more incredible how quickly it came about, less than one generation we sold our prosperity.  In 1977 I was looking forward to a life of steady job at the local plant making high union wages with minimum education.  In 2016 my grandkids are looking at minimum wage with high education in the hopes of competing for one the few high wage jobs that still exist locally.  We mismanaged our nation for the short term gain of ourselves.



Speaking as a "fairly" young person, I don't really think young people have as bleak an outlook as some of you have on this site.  There is plenty of work out there, people just have to want to do it.


----------



## George Wallace (27 Oct 2016)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Speaking as a "fairly" young person, I don't really think young people have as bleak an outlook as some of you have on this site.  There is plenty of work out there, people just have to want to do it.



That may be the biggest part of Canadian and American social problems, and the reason there are so many migrant workers in both countries; increasing the calls for Immigrants.  There are jobs out there, but too many think that those jobs are "BELOW" their social status.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Oct 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That may be the biggest part of *European*, Canadian and American social problems, and the reason there are so many migrant workers in both countries; increasing the calls for Immigrants.  There are jobs out there, but too many think that those jobs are "BELOW" their social status.


FTFY, and for sure at least _one_ reason.  I've sure seen evidence the same when I was in Italy.  My broken-record story:  while folks complained about foreigners taking Italian jobs, I saw zero Italians working as live-in help or home-support workers for seniors needing assistance to stay at home - those jobs were all done by Ukrainians, Georgians, Romanians & other "new" Europeans.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 Oct 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There are jobs out there, but too many think that those jobs are "BELOW" their social status.



Jobs, yes. Careers, Very few. 

I blame educational institutions for letting kids continue to get degrees and diplomas in fields that have almost no career path or are saturated.  

Light Guns is right.  The jobs for the average kid who just wants a middle class life with a pension at the end are disappearing.  And higher education is becoming either too expensive or leading to no career employment. 

I don't blame kids for not wanting a McJob or live in help when their parents got good jobs and benefits with a high school education.  And I see how the previous generations have leveraged their future for the benefit of the old. 

If I hear one more story about some 65+ year old who didn't prepare at all for their future, is now broke, and now demands society prop them I'm going to lose it.  You didn't prep for your future ?  Enjoy your fridge box behind the quick stop!  

Ice flows are the answer!


----------



## George Wallace (27 Oct 2016)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Jobs, yes. Careers, Very few.
> 
> I blame educational institutions for letting kids continue to get degrees and diplomas in fields that have almost no career path or are saturated.
> 
> ...



There are jobs, and they are not all "below their status".  Careers?  We have a society that has swung towards the belief that one will get a better job/career by getting a UNIVERSITY education.  In the meantime, the TRADES are looking for people to fill positions.  Trades professionals are making better money than many other professions/occupations, but few progressing through our education system go that route.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 Oct 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There are jobs, and they are not all "below their status".  Careers?  We have a society that has swung towards the belief that one will get a better job/career by getting a UNIVERSITY education.  In the meantime, the TRADES are looking for people to fill positions.  Trades professionals are making better money than many other professions/occupations, but few progressing through our education system go that route.



No issue with your statement.  Hence why I said:



> I blame educational institutions for letting kids continue to get degrees and diplomas in fields that have almost no career path or are saturated.



And



> Light Guns is right.  The jobs for the average kid who just wants a middle class life with a pension at the end are disappearing.  And higher education is becoming either too expensive or leading to no career employment.



Trades are careers not jobs.  And in my eyes are equal if not more valuable to society than other "professional careers".  They get these beliefs because Universities have been advertised and held up to be the only acceptable way forward.  The kids didn't just think this up themselves.


----------



## Lightguns (27 Oct 2016)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I blame educational institutions for letting kids continue to get degrees and diplomas in fields that have almost no career path or are saturated.



Governments as well, NB has created a low income assistance to students who attend universities but not  for students who attend private trade schools.  1000s of NBers can now get arts degrees in XXX Studies at little to no cost to themselves.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Oct 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There are jobs, and they are not all "below their status".  Careers?  We have a society that has swung towards the belief that one will get a better job/career by getting a UNIVERSITY education.  In the meantime, the TRADES are looking for people to fill positions.  Trades professionals are making better money than many other professions/occupations, but few progressing through our education system go that route.



But there is no Starbucks or Lulu-lemon where those jobs are


----------



## mariomike (27 Oct 2016)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Trades are careers not jobs.



That comes up on here from time to time. I think Recruiting calls them "jobs". 
http://www.forces.ca/en/jobexplorer/browsejobs-70

Where I used to work, most the generation I hired on with simply referred to it as, "the job". It certainly was not a spiritual vocation. At least not to me. Although when a call went well, it did provide a sense of accomplishment.

Profession, job, occupation, trade, vocation, career, calling, work, employment ...

I had to look it up,
https://www.italki.com/question/115349

Sometimes people will simply ask, "What's your line?"


----------



## Journeyman (27 Oct 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Profession, job, occupation, trade, vocation, career, calling, work, employment ...


"A friend asked, 'so what does your girlfriend do?'  I said 'everything but anal.'  Apparently he was asking where she worked."
- Jimmy Carr

/tangent


----------



## Grimey (27 Oct 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There are jobs, and they are not all "below their status".  Careers?  We have a society that has swung towards the belief that one will get a better job/career by getting a UNIVERSITY education.  In the meantime, the TRADES are looking for people to fill positions.  Trades professionals are making better money than many other professions/occupations, but few progressing through our education system go that route.



My high school years where between 1980-85.  If you showed an interest in a trade (including taking shop/tech classes), you seemed to be written off by the "guidance" councillors.  This was in Ontario when Gr. 13 still existed.  Uni was the place to go, followed, begrudgingly, by community college.  With talking to my daughter who graduated Gr. 12 in BC last June, this elitist attitude seems alive and well.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 Oct 2016)

Grimey said:
			
		

> My high school years where between 1980-85.  If you showed an interest in a trade (including taking shop/tech classes), you seemed to be written off by the "guidance" councillors.  This was in Ontario when Gr. 13 still existed.  Uni was the place to go, followed, begrudgingly, by community college.  With talking to my daughter who graduated Gr. 12 in BC last June, this elitist attitude seems alive and well.



This was my experience as well (Kingston, Ont) in the 90s.  And it was perpetuated by my parents.  The look on their faces when I came home with CAF Recruiting documents was priceless.  Their questions were disturbing, "Why do you want to throw your life away ?", "Why do you want to be a drunken wife beater?" and "What did we do wrong as your parents ?" lol 

I have to say they have changed their tunes ALLOT but they still hold some of incorrect and unfounded stereotypes about us.


----------



## Halifax Tar (27 Oct 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> That comes up on here from time to time. I think Recruiting calls them "jobs".
> http://www.forces.ca/en/jobexplorer/browsejobs-70
> 
> Where I used to work, most the generation I hired on with simply referred to it as, "the job". It certainly was not a spiritual vocation. At least not to me. Although when a call went well, it did provide a sense of accomplishment.
> ...



Good info, thanks.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (27 Oct 2016)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> This was my experience as well (Kingston, Ont) in the 90s.  And it was perpetuated by my parents.  The look on their faces when I came home with CAF Recruiting documents was priceless.  Their questions were disturbing, "Why do you want to throw your life away ?", "Why do you want to be a drunken wife beater?" and "What did we do wrong as your parents ?" lol
> 
> I have to say they have changed their tunes ALLOT but they still hold some of incorrect and unfounded stereotypes about us.



That's why my oldest son, who graduated CEGEP here in Quebec last year looked at the "arts and social sciences" university programs he could get into and the types of work and revenue it could lead to and decided to go to technical school instead to learn industrial welding. 

My wife's and my attitude has been: Good on you. Lot's of good work in welding out there.


----------



## Flavus101 (27 Oct 2016)

Kids in high school now days get very minimal exposure to "the trades". The amount of "shops" in high schools has been inversely proportional to the amount of new computer labs made in schools. You would be lucky to find any form of shop class in a school built after the year of 2000, especially in city high schools.

As previously stated, Guidance Councillors only know one answer when someone asks them what to do after high school. That would be to go to a university.

CAF Officers requiring a university degree is a debate for another thread.


----------



## The Bread Guy (27 Oct 2016)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> This was my experience as well (Kingston, Ont) in the 90s.  And* it was perpetuated by my parents*.


I experienced the bit in yellow, too, so I won't place the blame ENTIRELY on the young 'uns.

I've been to university and I've been to community college, and I find I use more of my college skills in the workplace than I do my university skills.

Anyone pursuing a trade, with a shmeck of organizational skill and work ethic, can make a _*very *_good living.


----------



## quadrapiper (27 Oct 2016)

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> Kids in high school now days get very minimal exposure to "the trades". The amount of "shops" in high schools has been inversely proportional to the amount of new computer labs made in schools. You would be lucky to find any form of shop class in a school built after the year of 2000, especially in city high schools.


And even those schools, looking around Vancouver Island, that have major shop infrastructure, are hard-pressed to find teachers able (or willing...) to take on the job.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Oct 2016)

My friend teaches shop, he gets about $20 a year per student for supplies.


----------



## Lightguns (27 Oct 2016)

My wife teaches elementary, we spent $1K, mostly materials that parents should supply.  It only takes 2 or 3 parents to refuse to supply and demand the government supply to screw a class out of fun activity.  So she covers that, there is no use in reasoning with parents who think education should be 100% free.  There is no budget for snot rags in an elementary school, incredibly, so that runs $60 bucks a year with all those runny noses.  We also supply recess snacks for a few and this year a Barbie bicycle for a young lady who never had a bicycle in her 6 years of life.  There is no extra room in the supply budgets, when I was in, I used grab any PPS thrown out at the end of course if I happened across it.  When we lived in Oromocto in a McMansion, we had a PPS room, anything we got went there, free pens from politicians or business, pencils found or on sale at end of school year. Can't do that with the little house now.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (27 Oct 2016)

I pass on surplus office supplies as well.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (27 Oct 2016)

Its easy to say there is jobs in the trades. That being said look at how difficult it is to get qualified in those trades. You can't pay to go to school for it, and you have to fight for a apprenticeship which if you don't have a family member doing that trade (or other similar connections) odds are you will likely never get. Right now I am attending college and the people in my class (all 40 of us) want a apprenticeship, but since none of us have the connections needed to get one, odds are we are screwed in the future. 

Companies don't want to hire apprentices as they are seen as a large cost, and once someone is qualified they can go elsewhere. Most the companies hiring apprentices want people who are basically qualified in the trade already just without the ticket so they can pay them less to do the same job as a qualified person. 

Yes the jobs are there, but even if you want to do it, they refuse to train you and unlike the military, they want you pre-trained and don't provide you a way to do so.


----------



## Brad Sallows (27 Oct 2016)

>The jobs for the average kid who just wants a middle class life with a pension at the end are disappearing.

That life pattern was an aberration that existed for a short time between the end of WWII and the start of globalization, and not for everybody.  There was a big lift in living standards over a short time in Canada and the US, and people forgot that for most folks it was normal to start adult life living in a modest amount of floor space with not very many possessions, having to budget the income stream carefully, and maybe having to change jobs every few years (particularly at the outset).


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Oct 2016)

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> Its easy to say there is jobs in the trades. That being said look at how difficult it is to get qualified in those trades. You can't pay to go to school for it, and you have to fight for a apprenticeship which if you don't have a family member doing that trade (or other similar connections) odds are you will likely never get. Right now I am attending college and the people in my class (all 40 of us) want a apprenticeship, but since none of us have the connections needed to get one, odds are we are screwed in the future.
> 
> Companies don't want to hire apprentices as they are seen as a large cost, and once someone is qualified they can go elsewhere. Most the companies hiring apprentices want people who are basically qualified in the trade already just without the ticket so they can pay them less to do the same job as a qualified person.
> 
> Yes the jobs are there, but even if you want to do it, they refuse to train you and unlike the military, they want you pre-trained and don't provide you a way to do so.



Yes companies nowadays have a blind side to training and skillsets. Reviewing the big LNG projects here, I ask "So where are you going to get the tug crews from?" Blank look, they don't even realize how long it takes to get a skill certification, for big tug master your looking at 10 years on the water and writing exams


----------



## Halifax Tar (28 Oct 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> My wife teaches elementary, we spent $1K, mostly materials that parents should supply.  It only takes 2 or 3 parents to refuse to supply and demand the government supply to screw a class out of fun activity.  So she covers that, there is no use in reasoning with parents who think education should be 100% free.  There is no budget for snot rags in an elementary school, incredibly, so that runs $60 bucks a year with all those runny noses.  We also supply recess snacks for a few and this year a Barbie bicycle for a young lady who never had a bicycle in her 6 years of life.  There is no extra room in the supply budgets, when I was in, I used grab any PPS thrown out at the end of course if I happened across it.  When we lived in Oromocto in a McMansion, we had a PPS room, anything we got went there, free pens from politicians or business, pencils found or on sale at end of school year. Can't do that with the little house now.



My wife is a teacher as well and my experience is similar.  She teaches at an "inner city" school in Halifax that has loads and loads of socio-economic issues.  I would love to be able to claim the amount I put into the students in that school on my taxes.  But my wife loves it, gotta hand it to her I couldn't do it.


----------



## Pusser (28 Oct 2016)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> This was my experience as well (Kingston, Ont) in the 90s.  And it was perpetuated by my parents.  The look on their faces when I came home with CAF Recruiting documents was priceless.  Their questions were disturbing, "Why do you want to throw your life away ?", "Why do you want to be a drunken wife beater?" and "What did we do wrong as your parents ?" lol
> 
> I have to say they have changed their tunes ALLOT but they still hold some of incorrect and unfounded stereotypes about us.



But you're a rugby player, so your parents weren't completely wrong... ;D


----------



## Pusser (28 Oct 2016)

Part of the problem I see here is that we as a society don't understand or have forgotten what universities are supposed to do.  There is a difference between training and education.  When we train people, we teach them how to do a task (or multiple tasks) as a means to an end.  Education is much more nebulous in that we don't actually teach tasks, but rather thought processes as to how to figure things out.  In a sense, a university is supposed to develop a person's ability to think and reason.

Unfortunately, universities themselves have forgotten this and have in many cases turned themselves into job training centres.  Even more unfortunately, society as a whole has bought into this and nowadays it seems that one needs a "degree" to do just about anything.  This was very apparent during a recent overseas posting.  My wife is a lab technologist with a college diploma and over 30 years of experience.  She was lucky to get licensed overseas because the entry level standard there was a master's degree.  However, although her colleagues were very knowledgeable and could describe chemical/biological processes in detail, they had difficulty initially figuring out their instruments and had no idea what they were looking at in the microscope.  She ended up training people with far more education than she had, in the basic skills they needed to actually be effective.

The other day I heard of someone getting a master's degree in photo refinishing?!  Seriously?  Talk about over-specialization, not to mention the fact that this is a skill, not a thought process.


----------



## The Bread Guy (28 Oct 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> ... My wife is a lab technologist with a college diploma and over 30 years of experience.  She was lucky to get licensed overseas because the entry level standard there was a master's degree.  However, although her colleagues were very knowledgeable and could describe chemical/biological processes in detail, they had difficulty initially figuring out their instruments and had no idea what they were looking at in the microscope.  *She ended up training people with far more education than she had, in the basic skills they needed to actually be effective* ...


Excellently put!  In my limited experience working with university-educated vs. community-college-trained journalists, I saw some of the same thing:  the university folks _generally_ knew more about government in general, but the college folks _generally_ knew more about what to look for and report on at a municipal council or school board meeting.

I think this is also why an awful lot of university students end up taking a year or two at college after their degree to get the training they need to ensure the best use of the education they've received.


----------



## mariomike (28 Oct 2016)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> There are no quality jobs with pensions and benefits, there is no home ownership, there is no vacations, none of the future their parents and grandparents enjoy. The lack of opportunity for the majority is incredible and more incredible how quickly it came about, less than one generation we sold our prosperity.





			
				Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Light Guns is right.  The jobs for the average kid who just wants a middle class life with a pension at the end are disappearing.



The last time I applied for a job was in 1972, so I can't comment on today's market. But, I can say that those on the job now enjoy some benefits that we never had,

Pension accrual rate increased from 2% to 2.33%.

Meal breaks and meal allowance.

Higher car counts.

Paid out-of-service time for stress.

Presumptive PTSD legislation for cumulative stress.

These things may be taken for granted now, but were unheard of during my time on the job.


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## Jed (28 Oct 2016)

Not to turn this into a ' in my day we walked to school uphill both ways' discussion, things are considerably different with respect to jobs today and jobs now.

Sure there are way less opportunities for middle class folks to get today's expected jobs with all the attached entitlements.  Each decade added more and more expected entitlements to ordinary jobs.

In 1971 I worked on a CN extra gang.  $1.65/hr 54 hrs a week, no overtime 2 - 10 min water breaks / day, free room and board in a box car. Lots of people had work if they wanted it. Tough to get EI unless you were an East Coast fisherman.

The significant other did not generally need to work to feed a family.

In 1977 a Fed Govt Professional job,  2 wk paid vacation, below average wages, no Maternity leave, no overtime, good pension prospects

In 1991 a Sask Govt Professional job, 4 wks paid vacation, fair wages, maybe 2 wks maternity leave, no overtime, drug plan, good pension.

Today, if you have a government job you are golden with all the built in perks. The problem is there are a lot less permanent job opportunities due decreased need for people to physically do the work and / or institutions can not afford to pay the wages.


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## ArmyRick (5 Dec 2016)

Interesting point with the mentioned govt jobs (even at different levels) over a period of time.

Our MPP, Jim Wilson (Simcoe County, Ontario) said several years ago that rapidly increasing government employees when the economic growth is not matching (rather gradually shrinking) is completely non-sustainable. 

What would happen if government jobs were pro-rated based on what the economies were like at the time? If we lived in a magic fairy world where no unions existed or other non-sense, how would people react if all government employees and yes perhaps even elected officials had their pay pro-rated based on how well the economy is going? Certainly be a lot of pyssed off people. Certain the banks and financial institutions would not accept it either.

Just a thought.


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## mariomike (5 Dec 2016)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Just a thought.



Here's another thought. 

Let the GTA  go its own way. Take its revenue and municipal union jobs along with it.


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Jul 2017)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Interesting point with the mentioned govt jobs (even at different levels) over a period of time.
> 
> Our MPP, Jim Wilson (Simcoe County, Ontario) said several years ago that rapidly increasing government employees when the economic growth is not matching (rather gradually shrinking) is completely non-sustainable.
> 
> ...



This is my rice bowel, so a tad fond of it. I find the government employee vs rest a very politically created conflict. In the real world, many families have someone either working private sector/self employed and the spouse working a government job. The government job does not pay great, but provides a steady and guaranteed income, allowing the self-employed to take risks without worrying if the kids will eat this month. In smaller towns the government jobs are the cushion that keeps the wheels on in the local economy if the mill closes for a bit and keeps money flowing through the other small businesses. An example is that when the Ministry of Forest closed an office in a small town, it almost killed off the town, about 12-15 decent paying jobs disappeared overnight, those people left town to find other work, many of the shops and one of the restaurants closed as there was not enough money flowing through the town community. The drop in the town economy had a ripple effect in the area for the outlying rural residents meaning that inventory in the area was not as high and prices also had to go up and services were down.


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## mariomike (4 Jul 2017)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> What would happen if government jobs were pro-rated based on what the economies were like at the time?



It's the essential services arbitration process. Ability to pay versus ability to tax.

Many Ontario municipalities contend the arbitration process is not taking into account their ability to pay wage hikes for essential services workers.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/04/02/why_scugog_firefighters_earn_more_than_those_in_toronto.html
"What four words strike fear in the hearts of many municipality budget planners and councillors? Essential. Services. Arbitration. Awards."

Escalating Emergency Services Labour Costs and the Ontario Taxpayers’ Ability to Pay
https://www.amo.on.ca/AMO-PDFs/Reports/2011/2011AbilitytoPayPositionPaper2011.aspx

"Ontario now faces the prospect of two tiers of public sector workers – those with their wages frozen by legislation and those who will continue receiving pay hikes. That is both unfair and unsustainable. The government has to find a better way."
Toronto Star Editorial – Province Needs New Approach – November 11, 2010

See "Ability to Pay Act" Ontario
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&BillID=2672



			
				Colin P said:
			
		

> The government job does not pay great, but provides a steady and guaranteed income, allowing the self-employed to take risks without worrying if the kids will eat this month.





			
				daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> With respect to pay and compensation....
> 
> 
> Public sector workers paid 10.6% more than private sector average: Fraser Institute
> ...


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Jul 2017)

I can tell you that we (feds) pay clerical workers well, but we do not come close for technical workers and have difficulty attracting them now. We used to be able to offer security and pension as an alternative to higher wages. Now no one believes the pension will be there and a lot of jobs are being offered on short term contracts. Currently there is no guarantee you be getting paid at all either.


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## McG (4 Jul 2017)

There was a bit of an odd rant of an opinion piece over the weekend which eventually arrived at the idea that the Canadian identity is suffering a legitimacy crisis.  Throw that crisis on top of youth not feeling an emotional investment/connection to the idea of Canada and we start to see things like university student councils canceling Canada Day.



> *The idea of ‘Canada' is in even bigger trouble now than in 1967*
> Colby Cosh
> National Post
> 
> ...


http://nationalpost.com/opinion/colby-cosh-half-baked-nationalism-for-a-half-centennial/wcm/91a8a662-0b81-4f4a-b0ae-7b1c7aabac00


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## mariomike (4 Jul 2017)

> We would be aware that the city of Montreal was going to be a prominent victim of the crisis—that the technocratic ambition that made Expo 67 a success was destined to metastatize. (When I was very young it was still taken for granted that Toronto and Montreal were equals, twin capitals of one civilization. Canada has since become, like Britain, a land with one representative, dominant multiethnic metropolis.)



Montreal may have begun its sunset as early as 1959, when the St. Lawrence Seaway opened.

Trans-oceanic shipping no longer had to stop there. Trade could bypass Montreal and go directly to the Great Lakes.

I believe 1959 is when the ascendency of Metro Toronto began in earnest.


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## a_majoor (9 Jul 2017)

Since much of the discussion is about "values" it is interesting to compare Canada's 150th anniversary with President Trump's speech in Poland. The "official" celebrations were all about diversity and multiculturalism. There was a background hum in social media and even some people I spoke to casting Canada in a negative light because of the usual SJW complaints of racism, colonialism, privilege etc.

President Trump, in contrast, gave a ringing speech on the principles of Western Civilization, and the need to maintain them and the will to exercise these principles to ensure the West could never fail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adpgw93_DfE



> We write symphonies.  We pursue innovation.  We celebrate our ancient heroes, embrace our timeless traditions and customs, and always seek to explore and discover brand-new frontiers.
> 
> We reward brilliance.  We strive for excellence, and cherish inspiring works of art that honor God.  We treasure the rule of law and protect the right to free speech and free expression.  (Applause.)
> 
> ...



The rejection or lack of understanding of the principles that are the basis of Western Civilization among the Canadian people (not to mention the political, bureaucratic, media and academic classes) are most certainly a key factor in why Canadians and especially youth turn to "alternatives", with radicalization being an extreme manifestation of this.


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