# Grenade Machine Gun



## mattoigta (22 Apr 2004)

wow..  http://www.hkpro.com/gmg.htm 

but how practical is it?


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## 48Highlander (22 Apr 2004)

very practical.  the brits and americans have been using them for over a decade.


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## Sh0rtbUs (22 Apr 2004)

definatly a cool weapon, I love the Rate of Fire. chuga chuga chuga chuga


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## FutureTroopie (22 Apr 2004)

http://www4.army.mil/OCPA/uploads/large/040304-A-6070J-029a.jpg  

Top left. Bonerific


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## 1feral1 (22 Apr 2004)

The US Mk19 is also usd by the ADF, and proved very effective in the post S11 conflicts we have been fighting in.

WRT to pic in the above post, thats good fire power along with the 12.7!

I would not wanna be on the business end of 40mm HEDP, and the 12.7 AP, API, APIT. For ops  the ADF does not even have ball in the link.

Wicked.

Wes


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## Korus (22 Apr 2004)

The Russians also produce something similar, the AGS-17. It‘s 30mm, however.

 http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/AGS-17.html 
 http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/ags-17.html


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## MG34 (23 Apr 2004)

The MK19 is a good piece of kit provided you can keep it running,Canada is/was looking at the General Dynamics  M47 Striker 40mm GMG  http://www.gdatp.com/products/lethality/mk47/striker_gallery/photos/5.jpg ,lighter and more reliable than the MK19 but as to the question will we ever see it issued....Who knows and if they do they are being pretty quiet about it.


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## CI Dumaran (28 Apr 2004)

It would be nice to see that Mk19 mounted on a G-wagon or a LAV...

It‘s just amazing watching one in action.

I‘m sure there was a vid somewhere I‘ll try to dig up the URL.


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## SteelMag (29 Apr 2004)

So what happens when that box of 40mm grenades gets nailed with some bullets?..

can anyone say KA-BOOM.


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## 48Highlander (29 Apr 2004)

you‘ve been watching too many holywood movies kid.


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## CI Dumaran (29 Apr 2004)

I would agree with 48.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Apr 2004)

The LUVW C&R version, a basic 2 vehicle patrol is supposed to be mounted with the Automatic Grenade Launcher in one vehicle and the ALAWS in the other. Both types of weapons have yet to be decided as to the supplier.


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## SteelMag (29 Apr 2004)

Yeah true enough i guess....

But i have heard that the US version of the weapon has some feeding problems.

P.S. So bullets hitting a box of belted 40mm rounds on the side of the weapon would not cause the rounds to go off (unless you got a dead on shot on the shells primer, which is like 10000:1 chance)


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## kruger (29 Apr 2004)

I am in favour of purchasing the Heckler and Koch GMG, the MK19 MOD 3 (produced by Saco Defense Industries) did encounter some problems with the feeding mechanism.


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## SteelMag (29 Apr 2004)

You are going to purchase a Grenade Machine Gun?

you are in Canada right?


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## kruger (29 Apr 2004)

Hehe, is that question serious?
What I had in mind was that I would like the CF to aquire the GMG.
I think I would have a hard time trying to get a licence for an automatic 40 mm grenade launcher...


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## CI Dumaran (29 Apr 2004)

LOL... indeed.

It would be nice to see these on CF vehicles.
Perhaps, a little R&D time to decide which would be more appropriate, but nontheless to have an GMG of some sort.


On the round question... It would really depend on the the round fired at the box and the location of the hit.

A more realistic event would be in a fire or some intense heat source (Ph flare/nade) where the box would go off. The same with any situation with cased rounds and fire.


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## SteelMag (29 Apr 2004)

Yeah like rounds cooking off in a machine gun because the guns too hot from sustained fire.

lol....i misread ya man. I was wondering where youd find a GMG for sale up here lol.

yeah that would be nice.  Ive read the US adopted the GMG because they found that a .50cal machine gun was often insufficent to break up an attack (this was in the Vietnam war and i belive they were talking about the M-113 and the river patrol boats). So they figured a stream of 40mm grenades would work better.

It would be a nice weapon for suppressing the enemy eh?


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## kruger (29 Apr 2004)

The US adopted the MK19 MOD 3, not the GMG. The GMG (Granatemaschinengewehr) is a unique and seperate model produced by Heckler and Koch.


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## SteelMag (29 Apr 2004)

Yeah sorry.....i was using GMG as a general term for grenade machine guns.

Is that even a catagory of weapon. Or do you just lump it under the same catagory and the M-2HB .50 cals (that is the version of the m-2 you guys use right?)

Im bad with canadian designations for things so bear with me.


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## CI Dumaran (30 Apr 2004)

Meh...

**** it.. I can‘t find the vid where a Mk19 mounted on a halftop Hummer is firing on a tank shell...

It was a gret vid.

Anyone have the link?


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Apr 2004)

It was stated at the last gunnery conference, we will not call it a grenade machine gun. It will be designated an AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher). This is the term that has already been applied to whatever weapon we purchase, in the Advanced Gunnery Modules. It will also NOT be the M19 or variants.


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## devil39 (30 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by recceguy:
> [qb] It was stated at the last gunnery conference, we will not call it a grenade machine gun. It will be designated an AGL (Automatic Grenade Launcher). This is the term that has already been applied to whatever weapon we purchase, in the Advanced Gunnery Modules. It will also NOT be the M19 or variants. [/qb]


The US is developing XM 307, a 25mm grenade launcher that weighs considerably less than the Mk 19 at 18.6 kg.

This system has a built in laser and fuze setting capability.  

The next generation of personal small arms are supposed to mount a 25mm grenade launcher, vice an M203 40 mm, with the same fuse setting capability.  Should be handy for airburst firing at targets behind cover.

One of these would sure be welcome and decidedly more man portable.


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## SteelMag (30 Apr 2004)

computer chips in grenades dosen‘t sound like a good idea.

whats wrong with the M-203 anyways?

also a quick question:

does anyone know if you can put the beehive (buckshot) rounds that the US used in the M-79 in Nam in the 203??


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## 48Highlander (30 Apr 2004)

nothing‘s wrong with the m-203.  nothing was wrong with the muzzle-loader musket either, but that got replaced too now didn‘t it.

computer chips in grenades sounds unsafe does it?  better tell that to the guys who put them in ICBMS.  they‘ll have to go back to gears and springs.


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## Ex-Dragoon (30 Apr 2004)

An Automatic Grenade Launcher is not made to replace an underbarrel grenade launcher its made to provide continous suppressive firepower that is more lethal then that of a GPMG or HMG.


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## devil39 (30 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Ex-Dragoon:
> [qb] An Automatic Grenade Launcher is not made to replace an underbarrel grenade launcher its made to provide continous suppressive firepower that is more lethal then that of a GPMG or HMG. [/qb]


Absolutely.  

My comment was directed toward the fact that the next generation of AGL is expected to be something along the lines of the XM307 AGL. 

Mk 19 and variants, as well as other 40mm systems are great.  They are becoming rather dated compared to some of the equipment being trialed and researched.  

It just so happens that the future "underbarrel" grenade launcher is also expected to be 25 mm with the attributes as described previously (lasing, fuse setting).

It would make sense to buy the next generation of AGL at this point, not the outgoing generation.  Obviously we would have to tie this into a small arms acquisition program.

 http://www4.janes.com/K2/doc.jsp?t=Q&K2DocKey=/content1/janesdata/yb/jiw/jiw_0589.htm@current&QueryText=%3CAND%3E%28%3COR%3E%28%28%5B80%5Dxm307+%3CIN%3E+body%29%2C+%28%5B100%5D%28%5B100%5Dxm307+%3CIN%3E+title%29+%3CAND%3E+%28%5B100%5Dxm307+%3CIN%3E+body%29%29%29%29&Prod_Name=JIW&


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## SteelMag (1 May 2004)

> Originally posted by 48Highlander:
> [qb] nothing‘s wrong with the m-203.  nothing was wrong with the muzzle-loader musket either, but that got replaced too now didn‘t it.
> 
> computer chips in grenades sounds unsafe does it?  better tell that to the guys who put them in ICBMS.  they‘ll have to go back to gears and springs. [/qb]


So you would like to carry an OCIW around??  Would you rather have an XM-8 with a fancy computer sight on the top with fancy computer chip grenades and such that runs on batterys and windows XP, then say an AK-74/GP-25(gren launcher designation is prolly wrong) that always shoots when you tell it too.


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## Ex-Dragoon (1 May 2004)

Do you have a point SteelMag or are you just yammering?


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## a_majoor (25 Oct 2004)

The current rendition of the OCIW is rather too large and bulky for most soldiers, but the 25mm OCSW is an interesting attempt to replace HMGs and AGLs with something lighter, more flexable and more lethal. I wonder if someone has had the bright idea to prototype a 25mm underbarrel grenade launcher using the OCSW round, along with a "stripped down" version of the electronic sight unit. This would be much lighter than the OCIW, and reduce the number of ammunition types in the Infantry. (5.56, 20mm OCIW, 25mm OCSW...)

Some of the posters don't seem convinced about the utility of electronic fuses etc. on a small calibre grenade. This is the same technology you rely on for a lot of other things, like artillery shells and anti-tank missiles, just in a new package. A mechanical fuse "might" work, but the effect would be about the same as comparing an 8 track to an iPod. What would you rather have?

Just a bit off topic, but perhaps there should be reserch alternative area supression technology. The Australian Metalstorm company has developed an electronic "gun" which has almost no moving parts, and can fire rounds at almost any cyclic rate the shooter desires. Some prototypes have demonstrated a firing rate of 1,000,000 RPM (not a typo). See: http://www.metalstorm.com/ for more info


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## 1feral1 (25 Oct 2004)

~RoKo~ said:
			
		

> The Russians also produce something similar, the AGS-17. It's 30mm, however.
> 
> http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/AGS-17.html
> http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/ags-17.html



Recently I saw one of these here in Sydney. It which was captured in Iraq by our SF. All steel stamped, but it did the job.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Boydfish (25 Oct 2004)

> I think I would have a hard time trying to get a licence for an automatic 40 mm grenade launcher...



There is no license for grenade launchers, automatic or otherwise.  They can be bought by any person.  A grenade launcher doesn't fire the round at a high enough velocity to legally qualify as a "firearm" in Canada.  Lots of private citizens buy them to mount under thier M4 barrels to launch "flares".

The nifty ammunition, on the other hand...


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## pappy (25 Oct 2004)

actually they've been around since the 1970's (mk19)
and before that a different small one that used standard M79 / M-203 40mm (lower pressure - shorter range then the mk19 ammo) ammo and was fired by turning a crank I forget the designation it held.


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## armybuck041 (27 Oct 2004)

SteelMag said:
			
		

> So what happens when that box of 40mm grenades gets nailed with some bullets?..
> 
> can anyone say KA-BOOM.



40mm Grenades have centrifically armed impact fuses. So in order for them to High Order they need to turn "X" number of revolutions in flight for the fuse train to become armed. This makes them quite safe when being handled and is also a safe guard against someone accidentally popping off an M203 inside an AFV or being fragged from hitting a target which is much too close. The actual distance of flight and revolutions required to arm it escapes me. 

As a side note, 40mm duds are some of the most sensitive UXO's found on the battlefield. Some of you may remember the Reservist who accidentally kicked one while setting out a defensive position up here in Pet. IIRC he was helivac'd to Ottawa because of his injuries.   

Scotty


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## KevinB (28 Oct 2004)

While M203's are not a firearm in Canada (I have a personal one) the Mk19 and HK GMG have a high velocity 40mm that actually is above the velocity threshold for a firearms and are prohibited devices for they are also automatic...


Pappy: IIRC it was the MK37


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## QORvanweert (28 Oct 2004)

computer chips in ICBM's, some of the most carefully maintained weapons on the planet, nestled in perfect cocoons conducive to their protection, or computer chips in something that is going to mass produced at astonishing rates and then treated with equal disdain later and subjected to battlefield conditions... not to mention EMP's, how would you like it if all your grenades were useless because a hydro transformer blew up nearby... the simpler it is the better. unless we *absolutely* need computerized grenades then lets avoid the hassle.


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## QORvanweert (28 Oct 2004)

clarification, the grenades are great, this AGL is great too, just not the chips...

I prefer salsa


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## KevinB (28 Oct 2004)

???

Chips?


The fuze is centrifugal - same as arty rounds...

Where is the computer in that?


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## a_majoor (29 Oct 2004)

I think what is being referred to here is the computerized fuze's for the 20mm OCIW and 25mm OCSW programs. The laser rangefinder built into the weapons system transfers range data to the grenade fuse, allowing it to burst at the correct distance (i.e. right over the poor bastard's head).

Conceptually, you could do this with some sort of mechanical fuse, but the fuse would take up a lot of room inside a very small shell, and not be very flexible, perhaps only able to detonate at pre-programmed 20m increments, rather than right at the target (1 Grenadier, Range 112.36m...). Computer chips are now quite rugged, cheap and can be hardened against EMP through the simple expedient of surrounding the electronics case in aluminum foil, although more elaborate shielding will probably be used. 

Electronic sights and fuses are the future, so we need to think about how we can use the flexibility they offer.


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## Blindspot (29 Oct 2004)

armybuck041 said:
			
		

> 40mm Grenades have centrifically armed impact fuses. So in order for them to High Order they need to turn "X" number of revolutions in flight for the fuse train to become armed. This makes them quite safe when being handled and is also a safe guard against someone accidentally popping off an M203 inside an AFV or being fragged from hitting a target which is much too close. The actual distance of flight and revolutions required to arm it escapes me.



The grenade must travel 14-28 metres before it arms according to the US Marine Corps.


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