# c9 LMG - Who is chosen?



## Kerr232 (18 Nov 2008)

Hi, i have heard many times that only a few people, in each group or squad get to use the c9 LMG,
I am curious, who is chosen to use the c9, and how the descision is made?

Any thoughts, or info would be great  ;D 

-A KERR


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## Nfld Sapper (18 Nov 2008)

Kerr232 said:
			
		

> Hi, i have heard many times that only a few people, in each group or squad get to use the c9 LMG,
> I am curious, who is chosen to use the c9, and how the descision is made?
> 
> Any thoughts, or info would be great  ;D
> ...



Section Commander chooses who gets the sections weapons allocation at least in my unit.


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## Kerr232 (18 Nov 2008)

yeah, assumed that
but any ideas on what movtivates them to choose a certain few people?   How they do on the range maybe ? etc.


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## Fusaki (18 Nov 2008)

There's a few different philosophies out there on how Section Commanders and Platoon Warrants assign the two C9s in each section.

1) They can ask who wants it. A volunteer LMG gunner will perform better then one who is tasked.

2) The small guy gets it. He needs to prove to everyone and himself that he can carry his weight and then some.

3) The big guy gets it. He's less encumbered by the size and weight of the C9 and has a better chance at keeping up with the riflemen.

4) The senior guy gets it. The C9s make up the majority of a dismounted sections firepower, and that firepower needs to be in the hands of a more experienced soldier.

5) The junior guy gets it. A C9 gunner's only job is to worry about putting effective fire on the enemy and it gives the junior section member a chance to build on his understanding of enfilade, defilade, and fire positions.

6) Any random guy gets it, or the guy who's name landed beside the C9 Gunners slot on the alphabetical nominal role.

Personally, I think #5 is the best solution. In my mind, everything the infantry does is based on the ability of individual soldiers to hit the enemy with the most effective fire possible from the best positions possible. A junior C9 gunner has the opportunity to focus on these fundementals before you start tasking him to search PWs, be first in the breach, be a first aider, LAV Crew, hump a radio, ect. #1 LMG is the perfect position to walk before you run and I think the time I spent there (2 years, and a tour) did me alot of good.


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## Nfld Sapper (18 Nov 2008)

or 

7. The guy who scores the lowest on the PWT shoot.  ;D


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## XtremeEuph (18 Nov 2008)

This one is based full on common sense. "Who would I trust most with, and who would perform best as a section machine gunner" is most likely what the IC is saying to him/herself.  I am only a Gunner (Pte), but it seems quite apparent that they will choose the individuals who obviously perform better drills on the C9 LMG, but who also are most responsible with a third of the sections fire power, and who can carry the extra weight around no problem.  The part about the drills also goes along with who can coordinate fire best from one side of a section to another (section attacks with 2 C9's alternating), and who has good individualist skills, knowing when and where to deploy the c9 LMG.  If the individual has a machine gunners course, obviously it will be taken into account, assuming that the course has improved their drills above and beyond the average.

Stop and think about it, Its not that hard.

Take care,

Kev


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## RangerRay (18 Nov 2008)

When I was in, it was 2) and 5).

Hint: 2) and 5) meant it was me!


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## HItorMiss (18 Nov 2008)

I think #4 is IMO the best option the Machine gunner is a semi independent postion that requires the experience to move shoot and communicate independently of the the main body to suppress the enemy so the Rifleman can close the distance to the tgt.

he needs to have the experience to make critical decisions on his own and not require the section commander to move him or employ him while also fighting the riflemans maneuver battle.


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## 1feral1 (18 Nov 2008)

Kerr232 said:
			
		

> Hi, i have heard many times that only a few people, in each group or squad get to use the c9 LMG,
> I am curious, who is chosen to use the c9, and how the descision is made?
> 
> Any thoughts, or info would be great  ;D
> ...



Hello Alex, welcome to the site.

In Canada we have sections. In the US they have squads.

Enjoy,

OWDU


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## KevinB (18 Nov 2008)

#8 The annoying guys get them...


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## Fusaki (18 Nov 2008)

XtremeEuph said:
			
		

> This one is based full on common sense. "Who would I trust most with, and who would perform best as a section machine gunner" is most likely what the IC is saying to him/herself.  I am only a Gunner (Pte), but it seems quite apparent that they will choose the individuals who obviously perform better drills on the C9 LMG, but who also are most responsible with a third of the sections fire power, and who can carry the extra weight around no problem.  The part about the drills also goes along with who can coordinate fire best from one side of a section to another (section attacks with 2 C9's alternating), and who has good individualist skills, knowing when and where to deploy the c9 LMG.  If the individual has a machine gunners course, obviously it will be taken into account, assuming that the course has improved their drills above and beyond the average.
> 
> Stop and think about it, Its not that hard.
> 
> ...



But here's the thing: It's not just about who will make the best C9 gunner today. It's about developing skills for tomorrow. It can be worthwhile to put the soldier with the _weakest_ C9 drills in that position specifically so that he'll have the opportunity to improve on them. It's not like he's going overseas tomorrow. By the time he's wearing tan boots and lives are on the line he'll have had _months_ of training. His C9 drills will either be strong or he won't even be there. It's important to take the time in Canada to identify weak spots so that Pte Bloggin's isn't picking up his dead buddy's C9 in the middle of a TIC and wondering _How does this thing work again?_



			
				BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> I think #4 is IMO the best option the Machine gunner is a semi independent postion that requires the experience to move shoot and communicate independently of the the main body to suppress the enemy so the Rifleman can close the distance to the tgt.
> 
> he needs to have the experience to make critical decisions on his own and not require the section commander to move him or employ him while also fighting the riflemans maneuver battle.



It's the classic chicken and the egg thing. You're saying a soldier needs experience before he can handle the C9. I'm saying he needs to handle the C9 so he'll get the experience. I'd agree with you if we're assigning C9s the day we deploy to the sandbox, but considering all the workup training we typically do _after_ weapons are assigned to individuals, a new Pte under proper instruction has more then enough time to develop competency.


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## HItorMiss (18 Nov 2008)

I am saying he will get the experience from being #1 Rifleman and learning the basics of the section attack from there he moves to another team then to a team leader where he controls the movement and the basic tactics....From there now that he has a clue what his section is doing (Why,How,When) he moves to the C9 where he is semi independent and uses his knowledge to properly employ his fire power (How,When, Where).


I\ll be honest I WILL never give a junior guy the machine gun I will make him #1 Rifleman though everytime.


it's not chicken/egg it's proper progression of a section member, the new Pte from BIQ hasn't the experience to use the weapon properly, will he grow into it sure but why should I as a section commander thrust him into it and then after he has mastered it pull him out and teach him the fundamentals of a section attack when I can teach him the basics of the section attack and THEN allow him to move to a more open postion within my section to grow properly there.


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## The Dunnminator (19 Nov 2008)

I think it should be on a random basis, every infantry soldier must be able to handle the c9 no matter how big, tall or old they are.


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## Eye In The Sky (19 Nov 2008)

The Dunnminator said:
			
		

> I think it should be on a random basis, every infantry soldier must be able to handle the c9 no matter how big, tall or old they are.



I'm gonna have to say this, but I'll do it nicely.  You're WAY out of your lane on this one.  Thats ok.  So am I and many others who are reading, not posting.  I spent 17 years in green before going blue, but not infantry, so my opinion on who in an infantry section should have the LMG is kinda moot, wouldn't you say.

*Appreciate your own strengths and limitations and pursue self-improvement*


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## The Dunnminator (19 Nov 2008)

Yeah but also improve your weaknesses to make them strenghts, you'd expect a soldier whose job is to handle firearms on a daily basis to be competent with every weapons he has to use. If you only train one gunner and he gets shot down, every single member of the section should be able to take his place. I am not the biggest expert and I am not prentending to be, I was just giving my opinion.


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## dangerboy (19 Nov 2008)

The Dunnminator said:
			
		

> Yeah but also improve your weaknesses to make them strenghts, you'd expect a soldier whose job is to handle firearms on a daily basis to be competent with every weapons he has to use. If you only train one gunner and he gets shot down, every single member of the section should be able to take his place. I am not the biggest expert and I am not prentending to be, I was just giving my opinion.


 Not to derail this thread even farther, we do train every soldier to use the C9, before you deploy you will do weapons handling tests on the C9.  We just do not have the ammunition budget or the time to let everyone do a PWT on the weapon.

The general theme is that it is the Sect Comd choice using whatever method he decides, it is his Sect.  Another factor is almost process of elimination; for example I do not want my 3IC to be a C9 gunner, I do not want my TCCC soldier to be a gunner, I do not want my back up LAV crew to be a gunner that leaves these people to choose from.  The best advice is talk to your Sect Comd and find out what his criteriahis for choosing who is a gunner.


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## the 48th regulator (19 Nov 2008)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> #8 The annoying guys get them...



 :rofl:

The best answer yet....hey wait a minute, I always carried the C2, then the C9....





			
				The Dunnminator said:
			
		

> Yeah but also improve your weaknesses to make them strenghts, you'd expect a soldier whose job is to handle firearms on a daily basis to be competent with every weapons he has to use. If you only train one gunner and he gets shot down, every single member of the section should be able to take his place. I am not the biggest expert and I am not prentending to be, I was just giving my opinion.



Okay,

Let me get this straight.  You are 17, and have never worn green, unless the occasional St. Paddy's day.  You join a forum directed towards Canadian Military.  You ask a question with regards to the use of a Weapon, within an organization.  You have had this question answered by people who have not only served our nation, but used this Weapon in combat.  Now you want to turn this around into a debate, and offer your opinion??

Do you not see the comedy of errors in that?  Here, I advise that you click on this link, to help you with some more of your questions/opinions.

Informational video

dileas

tess


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## Kerr232 (19 Nov 2008)

k, thanks all 

A KERR


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## PhilB (19 Nov 2008)

There are lots of options and considerations. One thing that I noticed on tour was that the way we employ our c9 gunners is changing. When I did my PLQ it was all very conventional, c9 providing over watch in their teams etc. When we were overseas man power was always an issue. Between HLTA and people being down with injury and illness we never had enough guys out in the COP's. What we ended up doing in my section was a combination of the list that wonderbread posted. We had one of our most junior guys carrying one of our c9's. He was teamed with the section commander and the most experienced cpl in the section. While moving the c9 gnr and the experienced cpl were on point. This allowed the experienced cpl to mentor and trg the junior guy allowing the section comd to command and coord with higher. By the end of the tour the jnr guy had a really good head and his shoulders and had learned a lot. Our other c9 gunner was also one of our sections most experienced cpl's. This was done because in a lot of situations we ended up detaching our c9's to provide overwatch etc, but due to man power constraints didnt have enough guys to send 2 full teams. When the gnrs detached the senior cpl c9 gnr controlled the fire of both guns. We found that this allowed us max flex. Hopefully this makes sense. A point to note is that each section is widely different. The dynamic and complement of troops will never be the same, so what works for one section will not for another. It is up to the section commander to use his experience, and his impressions of his troops to make the decision.


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## The Dunnminator (19 Nov 2008)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> The best answer yet....hey wait a minute, I always carried the C2, then the C9....
> 
> ...



First I'm 19, I wore green for two and a half year in the infantry. Don't assume anything about me or try to ridiculize me, I was just giving my opinion not turning it into a debate. I don't care if you don't agree but don't start mocking me.


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## Nfld Sapper (19 Nov 2008)

The Dunnminator said:
			
		

> First I'm 19, I wore green for two and a half year in the infantry. Don't assume anything about me or try to ridiculize me, I was just giving my opinion not turning it into a debate. I don't care if you don't agree but don't start mocking me.




 :


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## the 48th regulator (19 Nov 2008)

The Dunnminator said:
			
		

> First I'm 19, I wore green for two and a half year in the infantry. Don't assume anything about me or try to ridiculize me, I was just giving my opinion not turning it into a debate. I don't care if you don't agree but don't start mocking me.



So this was intended as a debate, as opposed to answering your question?



			
				Kerr232 said:
			
		

> Hi, i have heard many times that only a few people, in each group or squad get to use the c9 LMG,
> I am curious, who is chosen to use the c9, and how the descision is made?
> 
> Any thoughts, or info would be great  ;D
> ...



Two years in the Infantry, and you asked the above question about "Squads" after you "Heard" many times?

 

Close combat 4 doesn't count Kerr....

dileas

tess

Oh wait correction.  I got two people confused....I appologise, My my how did I make that mix up.....


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## Eye In The Sky (19 Nov 2008)

The Dunnminator said:
			
		

> First I'm 19, I wore green for two and a half year in the infantry.



Just curious (because it does make a difference), how much of your 2.5 years in the PRes infantry did you spend in the field, on ex, on Class B in a section or on Class C service?

Experience is relevant.  If you're going to put it out there, please expand on it some.


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## Ex-Dragoon (19 Nov 2008)

> The best answer yet....hey wait a minute, I always carried the C2, then the C9....



Did you forget to include the Bren gun?


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## aesop081 (19 Nov 2008)

The Dunnminator said:
			
		

> First I'm 19, I wore green for two and a half year in the infantry.



If you had 3 years in i might have taken you seriously........maybe.

2.5 years....pfffffttt !


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## TN2IC (19 Nov 2008)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> #8 The annoying guys get them...



Nah... I got the Carl G...


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (19 Nov 2008)

I think this thread has pretty much lived its useful life.  PM to unlock if you have something relevant to add.

Locked.

*The Army.ca Staff.*


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