# preparing and chances for reserve at age 39?



## Maxadia (7 Aug 2011)

In a nutshell, I did a stint in Armour Reserve for a summer about 20 years ago, and now I am thinking of returning to Armour, albeit possibly as an officer instead of NCM, hopefully in the King's Own Calgary Regiment in Calgary.

What's the chances of getting in?  Are operations being scaled back in reserve as well now that forces have been pulled from Afghanistan?  Is it harder to enter as an officer than NCM right now?  (yes, I have a degree....two of them, actually. Useful in terms of management and instruction, not specific for trades like engineering).

As for preparation, anything besides the physical part and some online aptitude tests?

Thanks all.....it looks like a great forum here.  




(Minor edit made by Moderator for clarity.)


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## cnobbs84 (7 Aug 2011)

It would never hurt to pick up a GED book and look over math and English.


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## Maxadia (7 Aug 2011)

I've taught both of those before. Lol

How important is the aptitude for selection? I always thought it was mainly for weeding out?


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## PuckChaser (7 Aug 2011)

If you don't pass the aptitude test for your trade, you will not be allowed in the CF in that trade. If you do not qualify for any trades, you don't get in period. Its very important.


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## Maxadia (7 Aug 2011)

So there is a specific aptitude test, or one test (or specific tests) that qualify you for certain trades?


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## cnobbs84 (7 Aug 2011)

RDJP said:
			
		

> So there is a specific aptitude test, or one test (or specific tests) that qualify you for certain trades?



It is the same test for all trades NCM and Officer. It is all based on score... so the higher the score the more options and more competitive you are against everyone else.


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## Maxadia (7 Aug 2011)

Ok, thanks....that makes perfect sense.

Anything else to prepare?  Anything really change in the last 20 years?


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## cnobbs84 (8 Aug 2011)

I am still waiting on my call.... so that is all I can offer at this point. But waiting hasn't changed lol


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## ArmyRick (8 Aug 2011)

RDJP,

Why at age 39 are you seeking to join the armour as an officer? I realize you can but a little reality check from myself. Very few people in your age group (you are one year older than me) survive training in the combat arms (keep in mind officers have far more training than the NCM). I hope you are 100% medically and physically fit.

I am not saying it can not be done but I have been training troops (and occassionally officers) for a long time, and the odds are stacked agaisnt you.


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## Maxadia (8 Aug 2011)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> RDJP,
> 
> Why at age 39 are you seeking to join the armour as an officer? I realize you can but a little reality check from myself. Very few people in your age group (you are one year older than me) survive training in the combat arms (keep in mind officers have far more training than the NCM). I hope you are 100% medically and physically fit.
> 
> I am not saying it can not be done but I have been training troops (and occassionally officers) for a long time, and the odds are stacked agaisnt you.



By training, are you meaning physically only?  It sounds to me like you are saying that a CO position is the more physically demanding job of the two, but I might be reading more into that than is really there.  Yes, I'm 39, but I'm not in poor shape.  I'd consider myself an ectomorph rather than a mesomorph.  I do get physical exercise quite often through the week.

As for why - well, why wouldn't I?  I'm a former grocery store manager and teacher by trade right now, which when you come come down to it is pretty much the same thing as a manager - except at the school where I work now the kids are SUPPOSED to be acting like a group of teenagers.    I've always been one who likes learning new things, and always seem to have a desire to teach and lead others. CO seemed to be a correct fit.

As for odds stacked against me, I'm not so sure that is true.  Statistics?  Yes.  But I think my odds, if I were accepted, wouldn't be too bad.  

I do appreciate the reply and thoughts on second-guessing.  I certainly didn't come on here looking for a bunch of "yes" men.  :nod:


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## cnobbs84 (8 Aug 2011)

RDJP,

What would you say is the prime age for armored officer? I applied as DEO Health Care Admin Officer, Armored Officer and Infantry Officer.


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## Maxadia (8 Aug 2011)

cnobbs84 said:
			
		

> RDJP,
> 
> What would you say is the prime age for armored officer? I applied as DEO Health Care Admin Officer, Armored Officer and Infantry Officer.



Ha, loaded question, if you'll excuse the pun.  That's so hard to answer.  It's a balance between young and fit, and older and more mature, as life experiences will always make you a better officer.  The older you get, the more experience you receive.

However, the younger you are, usually the more fit you are.   On the other hand, I've seen older officers in their 40-50's that at age 17 I did NOT want to go head to head with physically.

Like I said, it's a balance.


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## ArmyRick (8 Aug 2011)

I am not talking about physically fit enough to do the shuttle test or the BFT. I know people who at 60 passed those test no problem.

here is a reality check, the body does not bounce back as well from minor injuries and the constant wear and tear in the field. You are looking at three summers of training 10-12 weeks each. With considerable field time. Yes the odds are stacked agaisnt you. You could recover faster from this type of training much better at 19-22 than 39. Knees, ankles, shoulders, hips, etc, etc tend to give out. Now I would take a different view if you said you worked at very physical and demanding jobs (especially outdoors) since you were young.

By the way CO is Commanding Officer. A commissioned officer as a term does not have a acronym.

You can listen to what I have had to say as a 21 year infantry WO (That has trained and developed many of entry level soldiers) or you can ignore me. Good luck either way.


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## Maxadia (8 Aug 2011)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> I am not talking about physically fit enough to do the shuttle test or the BFT. I know people who at 60 passed those test no problem.



Right, I figured you weren't talking about the BFT.



> here is a reality check, the body does not bounce back as well from minor injuries and the constant wear and tear in the field. You are looking at three summers of training 10-12 weeks each. With considerable field time. Yes the odds are stacked agaisnt you. You could recover faster from this type of training much better at 19-22 than 39. Knees, ankles, shoulders, hips, etc, etc tend to give out. Now I would take a different view if you said you worked at very physical and demanding jobs (especially outdoors) since you were young.



Yes, as I'm practicing a martial art again I do see the difference now 20 years later.  And you're right, as the last 10 years I have not had a physically demanding job.  Although I have been keeping fit,  it is NOT the same as working physically.  



> By the way CO is Commanding Officer. A commissioned officer as a term does not have a acronym.



Thanks for the correction.  As I stated, it's been a while.   :-[



> You can listen to what I have had to say as a 21 year infantry WO (That has trained and developed many of entry level soldiers) or you can ignore me. Good luck either way.



I'll listen to any and all advice, although it might not come out sounding that way on the internet.   You sound like the perfect person to talk to, in fact, as opposed to someone who hasn't trained entry level soldiers.  

Do you have a suggestion for myself then, looking to re-enter the Armour Reserve again after 20 years? I'm not sure if it sounds (and take THAT for what it's worth - so hard to catch inferences here in the cyberworld) that you are suggesting that :

a) I not go the commision officer route
b) go the NCM route
c) I just understand what I am getting myself into.

I appreciate the comments, but like I said, hard to read people on here. 

Thanks.


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## Greymatters (8 Aug 2011)

I dont see anything wrong with his trying to apply.  There have been several examples over the last ten years of persons over 35 applying for and being accepted to combat arms trades.  The only way he'll find out if he can do it and if he can handle the physical demands is if he applies.


For RDJP, ArmyRick has already provided one important factor for you.  Depending on the unit you work for, it can be very physically demanding.  Be prepared.

Just as important is your mental attitiude.  At age 39 you are going to have to readjust mentally to the military mind set.  There is the right way, the wrong way, and then there's the military way; which can be either right, wrong, or in a new direction entirely.  

As an academic you will also have to understand that most of the time it wont matter if you are correct, in opinion or fact, what will matter is who is in charge and what their goal/mission/vision is.   

You will also have to realize that at times your previous experience knowledge skills and qualifications will mean squat.  i.e., during training, if you cannot tie your bootlaces properly as directed (right over left, left over right, or parallel, etc.) then you are a complete dumbass-waste-of-taxpayer-money-get-off-my-parade-square, no matter how many degrees you have.  You will likley recall this from previous experience, but its a shock to away adult who's been any from the military for a lengthy period of time.  

Does that help?


Edited - GM


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## Maxadia (8 Aug 2011)

I did complete my BTT/GMT (as it was termed at the time in the summer of 1989, so yes I have previous experience. 



> You will also have to realize that at times your previous experience knowledge skills and qualifications will mean squat.  i.e., during training, if you cannot tie your bootlaces properly as directed (right over left, left over right, or parallel, etc.) then you are a complete dumbass-waste-of-taxpayer-money-get-off-my-parade-square, no matter how many degrees you have.



Reminds me of the scene from Forrest Gump field-stripping his weapon.  I think that's my favorite part of that movie.  :nod:


Edit: Greymatters, I see you edited your post as well. lol  Yes, that helps.


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## Greymatters (8 Aug 2011)

Its not all negative.  There's always room for intelligence, intuition, initiative, leadership, creativity, etc.


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## Maxadia (8 Aug 2011)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Its not all negative.  There's always room for intelligence, intuition, initiative, leadership, creativity, etc.



I never found it all negative.  Went in with the mindset before that everything was done with the intention of building a better soldier.  I remember they brought in a Master Corporal to help with our training.  Most guys thought he was the biggest prick they had ever met, except the rest of us who realized that all we needed to do for him was whatever he asked.  We ended up getting along with him really well.


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## Maxadia (9 Aug 2011)

So, as the thread seemed to die a bit..... :blotto:

Any thoughts on entering at my age as a commisioned officer or NCM?


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## mariomike (9 Aug 2011)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Any thoughts on entering at my age as a commisioned officer or NCM?



In 1988, the Canadian Charter of Rights did away with age discrimination. Why not let CFRC decide if you are fit to do the job?


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## Maxadia (9 Aug 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> In 1988, the Canadian Charter of Rights did away with age discrimination. Why not let CFRC decide if you are fit to do the job?



Let me rephrase that.....any thoughts on which route might be the more logical choice to make?  I know it's a personal choice, but as a more mature entry, does one make more sense than the other? :-\

And BTW, hats off to all of you....this has got to be the forum with the most repetitive types of questions.


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## ArmyRick (9 Aug 2011)

COA#1
Enter as an armoured officer (reserve) and survive trg, then serve as an officer in your unit. stints like adjutant will be much easier on the body than say troop commander.

COA#2
Enter as armoured officer (reserve), attempt training but medically unable to complete trg. Show positive attitude and all that, then swith to something a little easier on the body say logistics or EME officer

COA#3
Enter as a Logistics Officer or EME Officer

As to the comment about the charter, yes we all know it and understand it. Whats legal is not always practical.


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## Journeyman (9 Aug 2011)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> What's legal is not always practical.


MilPoints enroute for common sense trumping the "wisdom" of those who've never been there.


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## mariomike (9 Aug 2011)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> MilPoints enroute for common sense trumping the "wisdom" of those who've never been there.



Feel free to deduct some from me.
I was "there" - CF reserve - long before there was a Charter of Rights.


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## Journeyman (9 Aug 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Feel free to deduct some from me.
> I was "there" - CF reserve - long before there was a Charter of Rights.


My comment was actually about trumpeting "rights" as a response to abilities lacking, rather than you.   :


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## Maxadia (9 Aug 2011)

To me, the charter doesn't even come into effect.


Either I can do the job, or I can't.  Plain and simple as that.  No sense in having ineffective officers, regardless of commission or not.

ArmyRick - thanks for the options.  Those were also what I was looking for.

How about the choice between officer and NCM?  Any thoughts on that , with regard to age?  I know when I did my first stint, all the officers were younger, and the NCMO's were older in age.


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## mariomike (9 Aug 2011)

RDJP said:
			
		

> To me, the charter doesn't even come into effect.



Are you sure of that?
"On 7 November, 1962, I became a member of 8th Signals Regiment, Royal Canadian Corps of Signals in Toronto (currently known as 709 Comm Regt).  After 15 years there and at the rank of Warrant Officer, I transferred to the Royal Regiment of Canada.  I guess I needed a change of pace and wanted to find out what the "grunts" were all about.  Prior to going to the "Royals", however, I applied to join the Regular Force, but was told that I was "too old" at the age of thirty."

"In 1988, the Canadian Charter of Rights did away with age discrimination and I applied (again) to transfer to the Regular Force in September 1988.  Finally, in February 1989, my lifelong dream was fulfilled.  I was accepted (as a Corporal at the age of 42) and took my first posting to 1 Canadian Signal Regiment (now known as Canadian Forces Joint Headquarters and Signals Regiment) in Kingston, Ontario as a radio operator.":
http://www.peacekeeper.ca/pkbio.html

Incidentally, I would probably be one of the last people to "trumpet" the forced changes in hiring made in the 1980's.


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## Maxadia (9 Aug 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Are you sure of that?



Yeah, I'm sure.

If I'm "too old", obviously I won't be what they need.  I have no worries about the aptitude, maturity, etc.  If I am "too old", it will be a physical classification to me.

I seriously doubt that if I pass the BFT and aptitude, they're going to say "oh, your age is a factor."


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## PMedMoe (9 Aug 2011)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'm sure.
> 
> If I'm "too old", obviously I won't be what they need.  I have no worries about the aptitude, maturity, etc.  If I am "too old", it will be a physical classification to me.
> 
> *I seriously doubt that if I pass the BFT and aptitude, they're going to say "oh, your age is a factor."*



They can't.  "Technically, they may say someone younger is more "competitive" but physically in the CF it's just as you said, either you can do it or not.  The rest may be up to education, experience, interview, etc.  IMHO, I'd rather hire the person with more "life" experience.


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## aesop081 (9 Aug 2011)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> IMHO, I'd rather hire the person with more "life" experience.



It's a fine balance, IMHO. The person's "life experience" sometimes comes with "baggage" ( set in their ways, attitude towards authority of younger supervisors and knees/backs........). A younger persons is ,sometimes, more likely to come without that and be more "moldable" as it were.

Life experience comes at a price.


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## PMedMoe (9 Aug 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It's a fine balance, IMHO. The person's "life experience" sometimes comes with "baggage" ( set in their ways, attitude towards authority of younger supervisors and knees/backs........). A younger persons is ,sometimes, more likely to come without that and be more "moldable" as it were.
> 
> Life experience comes at a price.



This is true.


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## PPCLI Guy (9 Aug 2011)

RDJP,

As a fellow who started in the Reserves as an NCM, became an officer, and eventually transferred to the Reg Force, I may be able to help, but not until I understand your motive for joining again some 20 years later.  What is it that you miss from the reserves, or more importantly, that is missing from your life now?


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## Maxadia (10 Aug 2011)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> What is it that you miss from the reserves, or more importantly, that is missing from your life now?



Good question.  Not really sure there IS anything missing right  now.  Married, kids, good job teaching....maybe it's the fact that there isn't anything really exciting going on right now (not that working in the reserves is always exciting lol)

When I went to university, I had the opportunity to do infantry, but my heart's always been in Armour.  Which itself is kind of funny, as I wanted to be a pilot.  But one week in armour was all it took.  Always been interested in jeeps and offroading as well, so I took to the Iltis really well.

Loved the comraderie, loved the discipline, loved Basic.  

Not sure what else to say.


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## PPCLI Guy (10 Aug 2011)

Based on that, I would suggest going the NCM route.  I am a bit of a dinosaur, in that I feel that officership is a calling vice a hobby...


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## Maxadia (10 Aug 2011)

Interesting.  My previous experience as a manager and teacher are kind of leading me the other way.


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## RangerRay (30 Sep 2011)

Glad I found this thread.  I currently find myself in a similar situation.

I am currently 37 and went on the Supp List in the mid-nineties due to my uni schooling at the time not allowing me to maintain the required time commitments.  It was my plan to go back to PRES after I graduated.  Since then however, civy work has taken me to  communities very far from any reserve unit.  I now find myself in a community with many reserve options, but now I'm at a more 'mature'  ;D age.  I would like to go armoured recce (NCM or officer), but signals (NCM or officer) also looks interesting.  _Maybe_ even air force tech   .  I would probably have to do BMQ again, considering the last time I took it, it was called QL2 over 15 years ago.  I failed BOTC in a previous life, so that makes me a little hesitant to go the officer route again, but I also feel that I have matured a lot and gained a lot of life experience since then.

I'm mostly thinking out loud here.  I don't expect anyone to give me answers, but feedback is always appreciated.

Cheers


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## Bart905 (30 Sep 2011)

I say give it a try. You cant regret failing if you give your best but if you do not take the chance and give it a try that you will regret . My age might be young but I learned so much in life I feel as I'm 30 years old and I'm only 19 . That's the reason I want to join the CF cause I do not have interest in partying drinking doing this and that people do that's my age. Like I said give it a try have fun if you make it that's great if you dont that's still great . Don't ask people if you can or cannot do it . If you don't have confident in your self no one will. I was watching basic up seasons . The elderly man was also 39 he did not get re-coursed because of his fitness but because of other reasons . You can do it I believe in you.


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## Diamondwillow (30 Sep 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> The elderly man was also 39 ...



EEEP!!!  *cringe* :facepalm:


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## aesop081 (30 Sep 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> That's the reason I want to join the CF cause I do not have interest in partying drinking doing this and that people do that's my age.



I didn't realize that being in the CF and "partying drinking doing this and that" were mutualy exclusive.

Who knew........ :-\


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## Maxadia (30 Sep 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> The elderly man was also 39



OUCH!!!

Where's the old geezer smilie?


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## PanaEng (3 Oct 2011)

+1 for PPCLI Guy for looking into your motivation.
Case in point: myself. After getting out in 97 as a 2Lt reg force (after 12 yrs NCM/OCdt) , I joined the reserve unit near me. Had to do the ph training again split into 2 summers due to civie job. There were a couple of guys in their 50's in the first course! I was the oldest in the second summer (45) but I was more fit than 60% of the course (mostly in their 20's). 
Fitness could be an issue but since Armoured officer is WAY EASIER than Combat Eng Officer  ;D ....
At my unit I have been a Tp comd for a few years (vision category issues ;-)  Tp comd is the best job for an officer - followed closely by Adj ;-) )
The thing is, although I love being a Tp comd, I spend most of my time planning, coordinating, emailing, writing, reviewing rather than doing physical things. On exercise, it is frustrating, everyone is doing but I am supervising - once in a while I get to show the young guys how things are done properly but it's rare.  I  spend more time on evenings/brakes doing Tp admin stuff than my other job, hobbies/leisure.
Another factor is progression. If you want to be the OC (Sqn Comd.) or higher, you will run into the "potential" factor: younger officers have more "potential" to go higher in the ranks and as a result are sometimes given more opportunities -> better PER's.
One of the guys in my regiment, a Cpl, is a AS7/EX1 in his day job (equivalent to Maj) - he could easily have gone up trough the ranks and be a MWO or Maj by now; however, he is one of our Hvy Eqpt operators; he gets to show up and drive a big truck, excavator, etc. He loves that and wouldn't trade it for anything (higher pay/status is not the motivator).
So, the bottom line is, do you want to plan the trg and teach the young guys (something you do during the day) and spend a whole bunch of your precious free time doing paperwork or do you want to play with the big toys and drive around in the bush and shoot things?

CHIMO!


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## sandyson (3 Oct 2011)

My experience is that as an older officer, you will be shuffled into administration as soon as possible.  Officers have few opportunities to be in command of any group in the reserves.  There are too few equipments, too few positions, and too little time, such that  any troop leading or "squadron" commanding is spent on young officer potential who will more probably lead troops on a call out.  So:  if your want to make a valuable contribution to the regiment, it will need reliable competent officers to do the massive amount of "administering".  You will attend armoured courses in order to fill higher admin positions, not to command some future  combat group.  That means you will have inadequate experience when you arrive on course.  (I found that tough.)  If you survive, you can still become a CO.  Or:  you can join the regiment to have fun. and therefore join as a trooper.  Nothing in my opinion beats the rank of master corporal in the position of crew commander.  You will for ever be in contact with troops--unlike the officer position, and trucks & guns beat computers any time.  If the trooper lives in a less than comfortable atmosphere, don't for a moment consider weekends in stuffy conference rooms much better.  That is why competent reliable administrators are usually in short supply.  Either way, the reserves need you: join.


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## Cardstonkid (3 Oct 2011)

I (re)joined when I was 40 as an officer. I was fit enough to pass the express test with exemption as an 18 year old. It is true that age is a factor. Being "fit" is one thing, and being able to take the grind of a long field ex is another. 

There is also the factor of being able to learn vast amounts of material in a very short amount of time, and then be expected to apply it. I find my trade, artillery, to be very challenging mentally. 

I never joined with the illusion that I will rise to the lofty strata of a senior officer, but I did join thinking I could do some good. I am glad I got back in. It has been five years now, and I can honestly say it has been rewarding to serve, and it has become a big part of my life. If I have any regrets, it is that I came in as an officer. I do important, even vital work in my unit, BUT admin SUCKS, and that is the majority of the work done by officers.  :-X  Being an officer is an honor, the work is important, and someone has to do it.,so  I have no real regrets, just jealousy of NCM's I guess.  

It is important to decide what you are joining for and what you want to accomplish. Being a little mature is a real help to a unit, as long as you are fit and willing to do the considerable work to become fully trained.  

You are not too old, you are needed, and you can do it. Good luck.


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## RangerRay (4 Oct 2011)

Thanks guys!  

I'm leaning in favour of joining as an NCM.  Probably the big deciding factor is the location and time requirements for Basic/Trades/Phase training.  The more I can do "locally" (unit/brigade/LFA), the easier it would be for me.  Advancement in rank isn't a big motivator for me; at this stage in my life, I would be happy to be a Cpl/Capt for life  ;D.


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