# What exactly is the BMQ instructor's main priority?



## JSR OP (16 Mar 2006)

Point blank question to the masses:

Is it the BMQ instructor's main priority to properly train recruits in the ways of the CF, to build up each new recruit to a high standard, assisting them along the way?  After all, they did pass the initial screening by CFRC.

OR

Is it the BMQ instructor's main priority to "Weed out the weak", to push those recruits they deemed unacceptable for whatever reason into the ground, driving them to extreme limits to force them to quit, even to the point of handing them their VR papers to them at their weakest moment because they couldn't kick them off the course for any other reason?


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## George Wallace (16 Mar 2006)

I would almost say: " All of the above."

Your option #2 is more of what you will find as a background technique to provide some form of stress, other than that of actual combat, to 'test' the soldiers resolve.  You will find that on all leadership courses.  Your option # 1 is what all training is geared as.  If you do not have both, "Good Cop - Bad Cop" techniques, you will land up with an Army that is totally ineffective when emergencies arise; such as War.  Too much molly coddling of our Troops in Training is leading to too many cases of PTSD from Tours and other stressful situations in the CF.


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## mac10inmymullet (17 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I would almost say: " All of the above."
> 
> Your option #2 is more of what you will find as a background technique to provide some form of stress, other than that of actual combat, to 'test' the soldiers resolve.  You will find that on all leadership courses.  Your option # 1 is what all training is geared as.  If you do not have both, "Good Cop - Bad Cop" techniques, you will land up with an Army that is totally ineffective when emergencies arise; such as War.  Too much molly coddling of our Troops in Training is leading to too many cases of PTSD from Tours and other stressful situations in the CF.





I wonder if people would suffer less from PTSD after their tour if they were shown real war footage and genocide on film. Or do they already show this? I can't imagine what a soldier would think or do if he/she was not already "ankle deep in the sh*t abyss" and witnessed things they never imagined. Just a thought. ??? :warstory:


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## muffin (17 Mar 2006)

JSR OP said:
			
		

> ..., even to the point of handing them their VR papers to them at their weakest moment because they couldn't kick them off the course for any other reason?



Hey JSR Op -  I was just thinking about you and the misses this morning actually!

You know - when I did GMT (BMQ I guess it is now) this was common... we were told to hold the pushup position until even the strongest guys were shaking and then the RTU forms were placed under our faces - we were told if it was too tough we could stand up and take the form - and have the rest of the day off.... only 1 did, and he changed his mind after a few min. 

I think the psychological side of the course (drilling down on the tired etc) is quite normal - though probably the hardest to deal with when you are tired, frusterated and stressed out. 

Sorry man - but I don't think they are doing anything wrong - but perhaps I do not have the "full story" 

muffin


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## muffin (17 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Too much molly coddling of our Troops in Training is leading to too many cases of PTSD from Tours and other stressful situations in the CF.



I have seen strong career soldiers who suffer from PTSD. They are probably the hardest hit - because it is not "expected" of them, and often do not seek help. 

I am not trying to start a pissing match or draw this thread off topic - but I do not believe that it is only "weak soldiers" who suffer from PTSD/CRS.

muffin


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## Journeyman (17 Mar 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Too much molly coddling of our Troops in Training is leading to too many cases of PTSD from Tours and other stressful situations in the CF.



George. I've edited my response several times. I know several truly hard-core, high-speed troops who have been personally messed up with this, and professionally screwed, because of uninformed bias by peers, leadership, and themselves. Two committed suicide. Maybe I've been too molly-coddled, but I miss them; the army is a poorer place without them.

Please, read.

http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/reports/special/PTSD-toc_e.asp
http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/reports/special/OSI-01_e.asp#executive

http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/mediaRoom/newsReleases/2002/02-05_e.asp
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/clients/sub.cfm?source=services/ptsdguide
http://ptsd.factsforhealth.org/
http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/


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## mac10inmymullet (17 Mar 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> George. I've edited my response several times. I know several truly hard-core, high-speed troops who have been personally messed up with this, and professionally screwed, because of uninformed bias by peers, leadership, and themselves. Two committed suicide. Maybe I've been too molly-coddled, but I miss them; the army is a poorer place without them.
> 
> Please, read.
> 
> ...




Yeah I lost 2 friends as well. It is not fun. One hung himself. One got crushed by a car in a fight.


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## Gunner98 (17 Mar 2006)

As a former Coy Coomd at CFRS and RCA Battle School - instructors are tasked to teach drills, introduce concepts and build confidence.  Instructors don't have to weed - students do a good job of making their usefulness and perseverance known through attitude, attention to detail and teamwork skills.


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## Journeyman (17 Mar 2006)

Thanks for bringing the thread back on-topic.


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## the 48th regulator (18 Mar 2006)

mac10inmymullet said:
			
		

> I wonder if people would suffer less from PTSD after their tour if they were shown real war footage and genocide on film. Or do they already show this? I can't imagine what a soldier would think or do if he/she was not already "ankle deep in the **** abyss" and witnessed things they never imagined. Just a thought. ??? :warstory:



Is that what you wonder eh...hmmmm I am wondering who you are......Do you know what PTSD is?...

This should be interesting 7 days from now that is, to get an answer...

dileas

tess


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## polo (18 Mar 2006)

According to most of my instructors, to perpare you for SQ. That would be in the forms of: stress, finding your limits, weaknesses, strengths, etc., teaching you prerequisite skills, etc.


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## George Wallace (20 Mar 2006)

muffin and Journeyman

I don't deny these statements of yours:



			
				muffin said:
			
		

> I have seen strong career soldiers who suffer from PTSD. They are probably the hardest hit - because it is not "expected" of them, and often do not seek help.
> 
> I am not trying to start a pissing match or draw this thread off topic - but I do not believe that it is only "weak soldiers" who suffer from PTSD/CRS.
> 
> muffin



What I mean is that we use these methods to introduce stress in the only way we can, without actual combat, to teach and assess our students.  If we make this training easy, our cases of PTSD are bound to be more prevalent.  I do not deny that even the 'strongest' amongst us can fall a victim of PTSD.  What I do feel is that we have to provide as much in our Training Systems as we can to prevent it, as best we can.  Being too easy on our soldiers, the Yellow Card syndrome, is not likely to produce soldiers strong enough to handle many of the mental challenges faced by them on stressfull deployments.  If we train them for and in stressful situations, they should be more able to handle them later in life.


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## muffin (20 Mar 2006)

(Perhaps we can have this split to it's own topic??)



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> What I mean is that we use these methods to introduce stress in the only way we can, without actual combat, to teach and assess our students.  If we make this training easy, our cases of PTSD are bound to be more prevalent.



I agree with you here, though I wouldn't necesserily say it is always PTSD that these membersd are suffering from. 

Most of the people I know who are truely suffering from PTSD were trained 10-30 years ago - long before the coddling began.

With the more "warm and fuzzy" training of today - I imagine we are passing some indivuals that may not be able to handle stress at any level, let alone in a  traumatic situation. 

While I would expect members to be affected by seeing things such as genocide and the death of children, I would not expect to see a well trained soldier unable to function because the stress of day to day operations is too high. It is this latter group that I think you are probably referring to, and they are (unfortuantly) often grouped under the PTSD definition. 

Hence PTSD gets a bad "rep" and is sometimes abused. Those who are truely suffering are often overlooked because of the high number of misrepresented cases.

muffin


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## the 48th regulator (20 Mar 2006)

PTSD is not caused by the actual incident, but how the individual is treated, or NOT treated after the fact.

I have explained this in great detail on another thread.  There is no way of saying that it can be prevented with training before a traumatic situation occurs to someone, It is the treatment after which has to be looked at.

dileas

tess


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## spartan031 (20 Mar 2006)

I don't understand why they recommend you for release from the CF.

What is that trying to teach?  You suck but you can reapply in 6 months?  WTF?


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