# Hero inflation



## daftandbarmy (1 Jun 2012)

Hero inflation 
CHRIS HAYES, the host of MSNBC's "Up With Chris Hayes", got himself in hot water for saying something completely reasonable, illustrating that the silencing cudgel of "political correctness" is a tool of the right, too. Here's what Mr Hayes said:

I feel…uncomfortable, about the word because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war. Um, and, I don’t want to obviously desecrate or disrespect the memory of anyone that’s fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism, you know, hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers, and things like that. But it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that is problematic. But maybe I’m wrong about that.

He's not wrong about that. Calling "hero" everyone killed in war, no matter the circumstances of their death, not only helps sustain the ethos of martial glory that keeps young men and women signing up to kill and die for the state, no matter the justice of the cause, but also saps the word of meaning, dishonouring the men and women of exceptional courage and valour actually worthy of the title. The cheapening of "hero" is a symptom of a culture desperate to evade serious moral self-reflection by covering itself in indiscriminate glory for undertaking wars of dubious value. A more confident culture would not react with such hostility to Mr Hayes' admirable, though cautiously hedged, expression of discomfort with our truly discomfiting habit of numbing ourselves to the reality of often senseless sacrifice with posturing piety and too-easy posthumous praise.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/05/political-correctness?scode=3d26b0b17065c2cf29c06c010184c684


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## Sythen (1 Jun 2012)

So much I want to say about this article, but it baffles me that anyone can be this ignorant? Its nothing to do with political correctness. Everyone who serves their country, regardless of whether in war time or peace, that is willing to travel thousands of miles at a moment's notice and make the ultimate sacrifice is a hero. Full stop. Simply because some left wing ideologues don't understand the world outside doesn't make the Iraq war a war of "dubious value".

And for some reason, the author of this particular piece seems to think that if we stopped the "ethos of martial glory that keeps young men and women signing up to kill and die for the state" that there would be peace in the world. Wonder what the world would look like today if men and women of the English speaking world decided fighting wasn't for them 100 years ago? If I was at home, I'd find a video in which Christopher Hitchens outlines the track record of the Anti-War crowd and says if he was a member, he would be a lot more careful considering how often they get it wrong.

Its sad that my first knee jerk thought was this tripe should never be printed, but I constantly needed to remind myself while reading it that free speech only matters if it applies to those you disagree with most. Its a shame some people think this way though.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> So much I want to say about this article, but it baffles me that anyone can be this ignorant? Its nothing to do with political correctness. Everyone who serves their country, regardless of whether in war time or peace, that is willing to travel thousands of miles at a moment's notice and make the ultimate sacrifice is a hero. Full stop. Simply because some left wing ideologues don't understand the world outside doesn't make the Iraq war a war of "dubious value".
> 
> And for some reason, the author of this particular piece seems to think that if we stopped the "ethos of martial glory that keeps young men and women signing up to kill and die for the state" that there would be peace in the world. Wonder what the world would look like today if men and women of the English speaking world decided fighting wasn't for them 100 years ago?  If I was at home, I'd find a video in which Christopher Hitchens outlines the track record of the Anti-War crowd and says if he was a member, he would be a lot more careful considering how often they get it wrong.
> 
> Its sad that my first knee jerk thought was this tripe should never be printed, but I constantly needed to remind myself while reading it that free speech only matters if it applies to those you disagree with most. Its a shame some people think this way though.



Most, if not all, of Europe would be speaking German? OK, dates are a tad off but the point is made.


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## Sythen (1 Jun 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Most, if not all, of Europe would be speaking German? OK, dates are a tad off but the point is made.



More than that though.. What would China, or Australia or Korea or, or... I mean seriously, the peace and prosperity that the Western world has enjoyed since the end of WW2 (aside from the occassional dust up, but nothing really major like full mobilisation) are 100% because the English speaking world would not sit back and let others be enslaved. To paraphrase the old saying, evil easily triumphs, because those with power don't prevent it. The English speaking world has been the ones with that power, and to not use it in a just way I think would be a greater crime than any war that has happened that we were involved in.


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## Eaglelord17 (1 Jun 2012)

I wonder what his definition of a hero would be if it is not someone who has fought and died well serving there country?


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## PPCLI Guy (1 Jun 2012)

Whoa.  Are we sying anyone that is in the military is a hero, just because they serve?


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## Jarnhamar (1 Jun 2012)

I find myself agreeing with the article.

I think a special honour and respect should be afforded to anyone who puts the uniform on travels overseas and falls in the line of duty.
I don't think it necessarily makes them a hero any more than I think it makes a police officer a hero who is killed on duty by a drunk driver.

There's no dishonour in not labeling someone a hero who has given their life in service to their country (or protecting it's citizens and interests).

Labeling someone a hero should be reserved for the individuals who have truly went above and beyond in their duties- that doesn't take away from the rest who are as equally as brave and devoted. It comes down to circumstance.

*posted with the highest respect


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## Pusser (2 Jun 2012)

Death and heroism do not necessarily go hand in hand.  Many a coward has died in action and many a hero has lived to tell the tale.  Merely putting on a uniform and deploying overseas doesn't make anyone a hero either.  This can be described as dedicated, committed, honourable or any of many other adjectives and it's certainly worthy of respect, but not necessarily heroic.  Heroism involves going above and beyond what is expected.  Taking up arms and going in harm's way is expected of all members of the CF - it's part of our job.  Heroes do more than their job.

If you go on the Governor General's website and read some of the citations of those who've been decorated for valour, you can see some examples of heroism, but if you ask the individuals themselves, most would not say that they are heroes.  In fact, most would say they were just doing their jobs.

We do inflate the word "hero" too much.


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## Sythen (2 Jun 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Taking up arms and going in harm's way is expected of all members of the CF - it's part of our job.



And people are forced into the CF, right? No? It takes a special kind of person to serve, and that person deserves all the accolades and praise we can heap on them. When people volunteer to go in harm's way, regardless of whether they end up there or not, they are heroes and should be seen as such. The same goes for a Police Officer or Fire Fighter.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Jun 2012)

Heroes, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.

People have many 'heroes' in their life. Parents, Grandparents, other kin, teachers and others that have made a significant impact on their lives.

I won't define how others look at things, those same others should have the respect to not tell myself, or anyone else, what defines an individual for them.

I'll decide what constitutes a hero to me. That is a personal choice and nobody else's business.

I don't need anyone's input to do that. Nor should they be offering or trying to convince otherwise.



_edit-spelling_


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## daftandbarmy (2 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> And people are forced into the CF, right? No? It takes a special kind of person to serve, and that person deserves all the accolades and praise we can heap on them. When people volunteer to go in harm's way, regardless of whether they end up there or not, they are heroes and should be seen as such. The same goes for a Police Officer or Fire Fighter.



Well, I know at least three 'formal' heroes... with medals and things... who joined the army because a) they were starving and needed work b) had a brush with the law and were advised to seek a career in the military or take a berth at the local prison and c) knocked a girl up and were on the run from an angry family.

Of course these guys weren't in the CF, which only hires truly heroic and altruistic folks, right? 

 ;D


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## Pusser (3 Jun 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Heroes, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> People have many 'heroes' in their life. Parents, Grandparents, other kin, teachers and others that have made a significant impact on their lives.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## cupper (3 Jun 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Heroes, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> People have many 'heroes' in their life. Parents, Grandparents, other kin, teachers and others that have made a significant impact on their lives.
> 
> ...



 :goodpost:


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## Snaketnk (3 Jun 2012)

I would be a lot more inclined to feel that all members who deployed were "heroes" if we weren't paid so much. We're fairly compensated for a dangerous job, and I think people would be trying a lot less hard to get tours if there wasn't that pay incentive and a heavily discounted vacation as part of your 6 months away from home. I know a lot of guys who'd never go back to Afghanistan if they didn't have serious credit card debt or a mortgage they want to pay off. Definitely not saying that no-one goes for altruistic reasons, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend that tours would be in such high demand if we weren't so well compensated.


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## cupper (3 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> And people are forced into the CF, right? No? It takes a special kind of person to serve, and that person deserves all the accolades and praise we can heap on them. When people volunteer to go in harm's way, regardless of whether they end up there or not, they are heroes and should be seen as such. The same goes for a Police Officer or Fire Fighter.



Special type of person to serve? Really? And we have such prime examples or really special people posting in the recruiting section.

There are also plenty of examples of people who wore a uniform that were less than stellar in their actions. They obviously did not deserve the hero label simply because the put on a uniform.

And why should we heap praise on someone who was simply doing the job that they were trained to do? Sure, if they did something well above and beyond what was expected of them, particularly when they had the safer, less "heroic" option available.


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## Ex-SHAD (3 Jun 2012)

If you have the fortitude and courage to enlist, then you are a hero. A full bird colonel once told me that, those who show the desire to serve, regardless of their motivation are the true heroes.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Jun 2012)

Ex-SHAD said:
			
		

> If you have the fortitude and courage to enlist, then you are a hero. A full bird colonel once told me that, those who show the desire to serve, regardless of their motivation are the true heroes.



Of course... only Heroes need apply when facing the usurpatious Continental Congress:

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/wiless/3829423144/

It's funny how the more they need people to join, the more heroic potential recruits actually are already... since the 18th Century, it appears  :


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## Jarnhamar (3 Jun 2012)

Ex-SHAD said:
			
		

> If you have the fortitude and courage to enlist, then you are a hero. A full bird colonel once told me that, those who show the desire to serve, regardless of their motivation are the true heroes.



I'm two minds.  
On one hand I think anyone who is willing to put the uniform on is above average.

On the other hand we have recruits who go into recruit school knowing how to milk the system, knowing exactly how many days they can miss of training and still pass. Know what phantom injuries to complain about to get them out of PT but not sent home.
Which they carry into the CF once "trained".

I want to believe the former..


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## Pieman (4 Jun 2012)

> If you have the fortitude and courage to enlist, then you are a hero. A full bird colonel once told me that, those who show the desire to serve, regardless of their motivation are the true heroes.


Yes! I always wanted to wear a cape, and now I can! Red or blue? Hmmm....

The English language changes constantly and the word 'Hero' has become one of the most diluted words recently. It used to carry a lot of weight. I suggest this has been caused by the infiltration of super hero movies over the past decade. Seriously, can I go to a movie without a super hero reference please?

Similar to what has happened to the word 'Epic'. Epic used to be something truly Epic..now a 20% off a slurpee is an 'Epic' sale.  

Likely, if the word 'Hero' is continues this path my future kids are going to be 'Heros' for showing up for school on time.

This line of reasoning is not meant to take away from the sacrifice that soldiers have made, with their lives or heroic acts. I just don't think  the word 'Hero' does it justice anymore.


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## Sythen (4 Jun 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> Special type of person to serve? Really? And we have such prime examples or really special people posting in the recruiting section.
> 
> There are also plenty of examples of people who wore a uniform that were less than stellar in their actions. They obviously did not deserve the hero label simply because the put on a uniform.
> 
> And why should we heap praise on someone who was simply doing the job that they were trained to do? Sure, if they did something well above and beyond what was expected of them, particularly when they had the safer, less "heroic" option available.



I was gonna refrain from posting, as recceguy's point was not lost on me. Until I read this garbage and it actually pissed me off. 

On my tour, we were on a patrol.. A reasonably routine one for a quick resup. Where my COP was located, you couldn't drive you had to walk, so we'd take a gator in to the nearest COP and load it up with water, ammo and whatever we could steal from the Pl there. About 200m to our destination, my Sgt got a very bad feeling and had our engineer, a young Sapper go ahead and VPS (Vital Point Search for you WOG's) it. The Taliban had hidden an IED on the opposite side of the wall, so it couldn't be seen. The young Sapper died that day and since I was one of the first TCCC on scene, guess who got to watch it? Now this Hero was doing his job. A VPS is pretty standard faire for an Engineer overseas. Happens pretty much every patrol, several times. He died so that no one else on my patrol would. The bastard with the trigger for the IED was obviously watching, and later we found him, his parts cache and his observation point but that's another story. One of my best friends was driving the gator that day and it doesn't take a lot of imagination to know he was probably going to target it.

This was my first patrol with this young Hero and I had never met him before that patrol started. He died doing only his job, and what he was paid to do. He didn't go above and beyond anything expected of any Engineer there on a daily basis. For all I know he was a terrible person before he joined and was a terrible soldier. I don't believe that he was for an instant, but whatever he did or was before that patrol doesn't mean anything. He died a hero. After looking at your profile cupper, I shouldn't be surprised you're a WOG. If all I did with everyone I knew on tour was sit in KAF or MSG or whatever FOB you were in and drink Tim Hortons, I might have trouble seeing it as well. Less heroic options open to them? Go fuck yourself. Every man and woman in uniform who deployed to that shit hole is a hero. 

And in response to whoever said people wouldn't redeploy without the monetary incentives, then maybe you should go to a recruitment center and ask all of those who come in saying they want to go to Afghanistan if they know about deployment pay. Bet the majority say they don't know about it. I sure as hell didn't, and if not for other issues, I would definitely deploy again and again regardless of HLTA and Tour Pay.


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## Pieman (4 Jun 2012)

Very good post Sythen, however I am having trouble with how we apply the word 'hero'.

The Sapper who was killed (I believe I personally knew the person who you are talking about) was doing his job. I also did this job overseas and did many a VPS. I was lucky and I never had a scratch from a VPS, unlike a number of people I worked with. 

We readily apply the word 'Hero' to the young Sapper who lost his life in the line of duty. Is it really an appropriate word to apply? In my mind it is not, because 'Hero' is a word that I reserve for someone doing something truly extra-ordinary. The only difference between him and many other Sappers I know, is that he got into a worse situation than others and lost his life clearing the way.

He deserves to be revered with Honor. A fallen soldier shall be remembered and their ultimate sacrifice should be honored. This something my grandfather who fought in WWII taught me when I was young. I never  heard him use the word 'Hero' to describe anyone but Super Man.

Applying the word 'Hero' to this situation, doesn't have the same meaning to me. 

As I type this, I think the word 'Honor' or 'Honorable' is a more appropriate word. 'Honored Fallen Soldiers'.....I suppose this is in the realm of personal opinion at this point though.


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## Tyson Fox (4 Jun 2012)

It's an interesting topic for certain, and it's doubtful any conclusion will be reached. But that's not the point is it?

 I joined right out of high school and went away and have done what so far? Boot camp, which really doesn't make one a hero, is the one thing I learned there. Now I sit on a PAT platoon getting paid every day, and that makes me a hero? If anything, I contribute less to society than my siblings; a Teacher, Social Worker, and Nurse, respectively. They make a difference in people's lives everyday, and no one showers them with discounted travel, or cheers them on on certain days.  You could argue that the commitment itself, the time spent away, arduous work and unlimited liability make us heroes. What about Lumberjacks, Railway Workers, Cops, and Miners, who all put themselves in similar situations for no glory? But this is the way the world goes, where everyone has praise heaped upon them because they feel entitled. So yes, Heroes have been inflated.


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## Sythen (4 Jun 2012)

Pieman, I see what you are saying however I totally disagree with you. Remember, I am not arguing that the word is overused, I am saying it is appropriately used in the context of fallen soldiers. Are you saying we should rename the Highway of Heroes to Highway of Our Honoured Dead? Or something like that? No, these fallen are heroes. Words are defined by common use, and I think the Canadian people have spoken in this regard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3IutxvltBM&feature=related

Shipwreck: Police Officers are also heroes. They put their lives on the line every day, and to put those other jobs in the same category is just insulting. And no, if you're sitting on PAT, you're no better than a civi in my eyes. Finish your trades training and get to a unit, then I will consider you a soldier.

EDIT: Also, Pieman.. Something truly extraordinary? Like travelling several thousand miles from home, to a place where everyone hates you and each step could be your last to try to provide security for these same people who hate you? Not only doing this, but seeing your close friends get hurt, and some killed through out the tour (this particular Hero had been injured earlier and had been given the option to come back to Canada, but instead he came back to his section) and in spite of all this go out every day and do his job? Without hesitating?


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## mariomike (4 Jun 2012)

> What about Lumberjacks, Railway Workers, Cops, and Miners, who all put themselves in similar situations for no glory?



Highlight mine.

I would say the difference is that members of the Emergency Services are excluded from the right to refuse work "if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."


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## Tyson Fox (4 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Shipwreck: Police Officers are also heroes. They put their lives on the line every day, and to put those other jobs in the same category is just insulting. And no, if you're sitting on PAT, you're no better than a civi in my eyes. Finish your trades training and get to a unit, then I will consider you a soldier.



So I'm right in saying that not everyone who wears the uniform is a hero?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Jun 2012)

How about a "hero" is what you consider it to be??


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## Pusser (4 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Shipwreck: Police Officers are also heroes. They put their lives on the line every day, and to put those other jobs in the same category is just insulting. And no, if you're sitting on PAT, you're no better than a civi in my eyes. Finish your trades training and get to a unit, then I will consider you a soldier.



Hmmm.  At first you say that anyone who volunteers and puts on a uniform is hero and then you start to qualify it based on a bar that you have set?  Is it Shipwreck's fault that he's in a PAT platoon?  Has he done something to shirk his responsibilities?  Is he not subject to the same Code of Service Discipline as those you consider to be soldiers?  If he pi$$es in the pickles and gets charged, can he plead that he's no different than a civvy at his trial?  If we're going to hold him to the same disciplinary standard as any other soldier, then I think we can call him a soldier.  He may not be as qualified and as experienced as you, but he's still a soldier nonetheless.

Then you decide that some dangerous work is more worthy of the "hero" label than other dangerous work?  The fact is that more people die in work-related incidents in Canada every year than CF members have died in all of the years we've been involved in Afghanistan (over 1000 in 2005 alone).  The most dangerous line of work in Canada?  Fishing - providing food for the population and sustaining their families (sounds pretty important, if underappreciated to me - almost heroic).  If you ever have a chance to go to Lunenburg, NS sometime, I suggest you check out the fishermen's monument on the waterfront where the names of all the fisherman who've been lost over the years are inscribed in stone.  It's pretty haunting, especially when you note that some family names appear over and over.

It is apparent that you subscribe to a different definition of "hero" than others here, which is fine, but there's no need to crap on others (and get personal about it) because they subscribe to another one.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2012)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> How about a "hero" is what you consider it to be??



That works for me... and my buddy Idi  ;D


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## Maxadia (4 Jun 2012)

A hero is simply someone heroic in the eyes of others.  For some, that is people who work in dangerous situations.  For others, it might be someone who jumps into action with their first aid training. For yet another, maybe it's that coach, teacher, or family friend who counselled their kid at just the right time to prevent a suicide.

And yet, not all crossing guards at crosswalks face intense danger each day.  Not all first aid (think applying a band aid) can be considered heroic.  And maybe not all coaches, teachers, family friends, etc end up in a situation where they can help prevent a suicide.

Heroes become heroes when they do heroic action.  It's up to the individual to decide what that heroic action is, and how much of a sacrifice they think it is, not anyone else.


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## dogger1936 (4 Jun 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Death and heroism do not necessarily go hand in hand.  Many a coward has died in action



As it comes down to personal choice as stated by other people; this is where you and I differ on the term.

Having friends who have died overseas in not so heroic situations (IED attack, wrong place wrong time sort of thing) and not a hail of bullets rescuing their friends. My friends and I have discussed the topic over a few beer.

For us regardless of how they died, hail of bullets saving a buddy, IED attack, etc every one of these Canadians volunteered to deploy where death was a good possibility. Each one of them regardless of situation `cashed in` and gave absolutely everything they could in this life to their country.

For me a person who gives all to a cause is a ****ing hero. Each and every soldier who gives their whole existence up; has given all they possibly can. 

In regards to cowardice; although I have never seen a person dying in such a situation I`ve seen men freeze under the stress of combat. Absolutely freeze. I was lucky that I never personally experienced it. I would never judge them as all of them were excellent soldiers. Not one of them wanted to freeze and were ashamed after the fact and have to live with that.

Even if one of those guys died he died with my total respect and would be a hero to me. To put yourself into a volunteer army and deploy on behalf of your country and give all is the absolute most a person can give. Regardless of how they died.

War does funny things to people; I`m suffering from PTSD while I was rock solid on the ground in combat. I`ve been there and would never judge another human being in those situations having experienced it. I`m too busy judging myself!

Again a highly personal topic the word hero is.


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## Pieman (4 Jun 2012)

> [Pieman, I see what you are saying however I totally disagree with you. Remember, I am not arguing that the word is overused, I am saying it is appropriately used in the context of fallen soldiers. Are you saying we should rename the Highway of Heroes to Highway of Our Honoured Dead? Or something like that? No, these fallen are heroes. Words are defined by common use, and I think the Canadian people have spoken in this regard



I see your point, and it looks like I could be in the miniority about the use of the word. I just feel that the word "Hero" is overused and thus is loses its orignally intended meaning. This in my mind is a bit of an injustice to those who gave their lives. Also, I would not be comfortable at all if someone refereed to me as a 'hero' because I was doing my job deploying overseas. Lots of people do that, and they are not 'Heros' in my books. They are good soldiers. Oh well, looks like the word is here to stay anyway.


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## Pusser (4 Jun 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> As it comes down to personal choice as stated by other people; this is where you and I differ on the term.
> 
> Having friends who have died overseas in not so heroic situations (IED attack, wrong place wrong time sort of thing) and not a hail of bullets rescuing their friends. My friends and I have discussed the topic over a few beer.
> 
> ...



Please note that I'm not judging anyone on their actions in combat or any other dangerous situation for that matter.  My only point was that in my view, living or dying are not necessarily indicators of heroism.  When more than one person does the same thing, the fact that some of them died in the process, does not make them more heroic than the ones who lived.


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## CountDC (4 Jun 2012)

Interesting reading.

My 1 cent

The word is over used everyday in my opinion.

Not everyone that joins the military is a hero.  I sure as hell am not a hero for joining and wearing a uniform.  

Me trying to shove my view on it down your throat or vice versa only takes away from one of the causes so many have served to uphold.  We can all form our own and share it while respecting the other persons.

The truest statement in this entire thread is that it is each persons own opinion what is a hero.


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## Sythen (4 Jun 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  At first you say that anyone who volunteers and puts on a uniform is hero and then you start to qualify it based on a bar that you have set?  Is it Shipwreck's fault that he's in a PAT platoon?  Has he done something to shirk his responsibilities?  Is he not subject to the same Code of Service Discipline as those you consider to be soldiers?  If he pi$$es in the pickles and gets charged, can he plead that he's no different than a civvy at his trial?  If we're going to hold him to the same disciplinary standard as any other soldier, then I think we can call him a soldier.  He may not be as qualified and as experienced as you, but he's still a soldier nonetheless.
> 
> Then you decide that some dangerous work is more worthy of the "hero" label than other dangerous work?  The fact is that more people die in work-related incidents in Canada every year than CF members have died in all of the years we've been involved in Afghanistan (over 1000 in 2005 alone).  The most dangerous line of work in Canada?  Fishing - providing food for the population and sustaining their families (sounds pretty important, if underappreciated to me - almost heroic).  If you ever have a chance to go to Lunenburg, NS sometime, I suggest you check out the fishermen's monument on the waterfront where the names of all the fisherman who've been lost over the years are inscribed in stone.  It's pretty haunting, especially when you note that some family names appear over and over.
> 
> It is apparent that you subscribe to a different definition of "hero" than others here, which is fine, but there's no need to crap on others (and get personal about it) because they subscribe to another one.



Wow someone needs to learn to think outside the box. A bar that I set? Is he deployable? No, and he is not qualified to do anything but garbage sweeps right now. Its no one's "fault" he's on PAT, but until he is trades qualified I couldn't give two shits about him.

As for dangerous work, can you honestly say you don't see a difference between someone like a Police Officer, Soldier or Fire Fighter and some like a Miner or a Railway Worker? Yes these jobs can be dangerous, but no one gets employment in a diamond mine thinking, 'Wow some day this diamond is gonna make a perfect engagement ring, I am so glad I risk the dangers here to put a smile on a young girl's face.' 

Actually know what Pusser, I can't even discuss something like this with someone like you. Pull your head out of your ass and use your head, please. Done now.


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## dogger1936 (4 Jun 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Please note that I'm not judging anyone on their actions in combat or any other dangerous situation for that matter.  My only point was that in my view, living or dying are not necessarily indicators of heroism.  When more than one person does the same thing, the fact that some of them died in the process, does not make them more heroic than the ones who lived.



Absolutely Pusser; I wouldn't suggest that and sorry if it came off that way (interwebs stuff). It's interesting to see others point of views on the topic; and I appreciate yours.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (4 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Actually know what Pusser, I can't even discuss something like this with someone like you.



That's because you're talking like a flippin' idiot.......rein yourself in there lad.


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## 2 Cdo (4 Jun 2012)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> That's because you're talking like a flippin' idiot.......rein yourself in there lad.




No you're wrong, he's a hero because he wears a uniform!  8)


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jun 2012)

Alright, don't make me come back there. If I have to stop this car................


Seriously, let's give this a rest shall we?
We're supposed to be grownups.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## daftandbarmy (5 Jun 2012)

It appears that the one thing most people agree on is that you CAN NOT be  a hero if you're sitting on your fat ass, viz"

Campbell explores the theory that important myths from around the world which have survived for thousands of years all share a fundamental structure, which Campbell called the monomyth. In a well-known quote from the introduction to The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell summarized the monomyth:

“ A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.[3] ” 

In laying out the monomyth, Campbell describes a number of stages or steps along this journey. The hero starts in the ordinary world, and receives a call to enter an unusual world of strange powers and events (a call to adventure). If the hero accepts the call to enter this strange world, the hero must face tasks and trials (a road of trials), and may have to face these trials alone, or may have assistance. At its most intense, the hero must survive a severe challenge, often with help earned along the journey. If the hero survives, the hero may achieve a great gift (the goal or "boon"), which often results in the discovery of important self-knowledge. The hero must then decide whether to return with this boon (the return to the ordinary world), often facing challenges on the return journey. If the hero is successful in returning, the boon or gift may be used to improve the world (the application of the boon).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces


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## Delaney1986 (5 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> EDIT: Also, Pieman.. Something truly extraordinary? Like travelling several thousand miles from home, to a place where everyone hates you and each step could be your last to try to provide security for these same people who hate you? Not only doing this, but seeing your close friends get hurt, and some killed through out the tour (this particular Hero had been injured earlier and had been given the option to come back to Canada, but instead he came back to his section) and in spite of all this go out every day and do his job? Without hesitating?



That was my first reaction too. It's unusual that travelling to a war zone in the pursuit of security for others isn't considered _truly extraordinary_....
And to the person who referred to his  Grandfather who had served and who never referred to others who served as heroes...yeah...most heroes don't refer to themselves as such, most get embarrassed about being called a hero.

Teachers and lumberjacks etc, don't usually get as much recognition as heroes because they don't voluntarily agree to put their lives at risk for the sake and protection of others. Firefighters, paramedics, police, soldiers all get this sort of recognition because of these reasons. Even people who join to escape family problems or prison are still making a choice to join, knowing what it could entail. 

In my opinion if people want to bestow honour on those who have made the ultimate sacrifice by calling them heroes...why should I bristle at that?


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## bridges (5 Jun 2012)

Just for kicks, I checked my Canadian Oxford:  





> *Hero* _noun_ (_pl._*heroes*) *1* a person distinguished by courage, noble deeds, outstanding achievements, etc.



I would enhance this to say that animals can also be heroes.   

This is an important discussion to have, as it does seem like the term is getting diluted - but IMO, ultimately it probably comes down to the eye of the beholder.   :2c:


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## cupper (5 Jun 2012)

It is a matter of perspective as well.

An example of this would be Pte. Bradley Manning.

Some consider him a hero for what he did, others (especially many of those in uniform) vilify him.


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## bridges (5 Jun 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> It is a matter of perspective as well.
> 
> An example of this would be Pte. Bradley Manning.
> 
> Some consider him a hero for what he did, others (especially many of those in uniform) vilify him.



Good point.  The 'Hero or traitor?" question, in some cases, can flip 180° depending on your perspective.  In other cases there's little ambiguity.


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## Pusser (5 Jun 2012)

Sythen said:
			
		

> Its no one's "fault" he's on PAT, but until he is trades qualified I couldn't give two shits about him.



This should inspire young (apparently not yet) soldiers to excel.


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## bridges (5 Jun 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> This should inspire young (apparently not yet) soldiers to excel.



Really.  Hopefully they'd see it for what it is:  one person's opinion.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Jun 2012)

bridges said:
			
		

> Really.  Hopefully they'd see it for what it is:  one person's opinion.



The idea that it is a person's private opinion, has been stated in this thread at least three times, and very clearly, at that.

Yet some are determined to beat people over the head and shove what they believe, down other's throats as opposed to just being adults and respecting what others believe.

If this circles the drain much more it's going to be done for, because it's been circling for a couple of pages already.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## daftandbarmy (7 Jun 2012)

This looks interesting:

Military Heroism: An Occupational Definition
Jeffrey W. Anderson
U.S. Army Research Institute

Abstract
While most of us recognize the concept of heroism, an operational definition has remained elusive. The body of published literature on heroism likewise does not focus on the personal attributes that predispose an individual to heroic acts. In this study, a body of work not previously analyzed-citations of Medal of Honor awardees-was used to develop and rank dimensions of military heroism, following Flanagan's critical incident technique. These dimensions then compared definitions of heroism across conflicts. Essentially, three dimensions were derived and served as a basis for examining military heroism. As an initial effort, this study directs our thoughts to an operational definition of military heroism. 

http://afs.sagepub.com/content/12/4/591.abstract


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## Bass ackwards (7 Jun 2012)

I wonder if this whole thing would even be newsworthy, much less cause all this acrimonious debate, if the original words had been spoken by...say...a retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant with a chest full of medals as opposed to "some left-wing bedwettin' commie from the MSM" ?

Sometimes it's the messenger, not the message.


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## cupper (7 Jun 2012)

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> I wonder if this whole thing would even be newsworthy, much less cause all this acrimonious debate, if the original words had been spoken by...say...a retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant with a chest full of medals as opposed to "some left-wing bedwettin' commie from the MSM" ?
> 
> Sometimes it's the messenger, not the message.



There may be a little bit of truth in that.


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## Bass ackwards (7 Jun 2012)

cupper said:
			
		

> There may be a little bit of truth in that.



Just a "little bit" ?? 

I'm hurt...


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## Pieman (18 Jul 2012)

I ran across this today, and thought it summed things up nicely:



> “Do not call me hero,
> When you see the medals that I wear,
> Medals maketh not the hero,
> They just prove that I was there.
> ...


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## daftandbarmy (20 Jul 2012)

Pieman said:
			
		

> I ran across this today, and thought it summed things up nicely:





This link credits Rob Aitchison 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/98/a2749098.shtml

Here's another good one:

“War is hell, but that's not the half of it,
because war is also mystery and terror and
adventure and courage and discovery and
holiness and pity and despair and longing and
love. War is nasty; war is fun. War is thrilling;
war is drudgery. War makes you a man; war
makes you dead.”

- Tim O'Brien, The Things They Carried


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## Pieman (20 Jul 2012)

Very nice, also strikes me as being very true.


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