# No canadian support for military? opinion please, writing paper



## scottyg_20 (1 Jan 2004)

Im currently working on a paper to do with the over stretching of our military.

basicly im seeing that the funds arent there because a) the government isnt all there, morons at times

b) the canadian citizens dont want it.
 in 1998 (i know kinda old) they did a survey

Canada were asked what the leaders of Canada should be receiving the greatest amount of attention it was Unemployment/Jobs: 27% Health Care/Medicare: 40% Defense/Military: 1%

would that not partially explain why the military doenst get more funding.  canadian citizens are too focused on their own well being , we already have the best healthcare in the world, 

i just read the thread about military role, and during my essay i was supporting a military with primary role of peacekeeping. 

Now ive always thought we needed a bigger military, we have a huge country and should defend it, but thats not going to happen anytime soon because no one thinks canada is threatened, ya ok.

so im argueing that our reputation as peacekeepers is at risk because we simply cant effectively act on all the commitments the government is making? is this not true. i read that 1/3 of the armies deployable force is currently overseas.

i personally think if we could get canadian citizens to realize that to raise the military budget isnt to simply build bigger guns, although it would allow us to bring our fighting force up to date, but its to be able to help out more overseas, humanitarion mission, keep the peace for the world.

am i going anywhere right with this?


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## Jarnhamar (1 Jan 2004)

Canadians don‘t feel that we as a country are in dangerer or are in need of a large military. People automatically connect the military with defending out homeland against attack. (Wehave the states, who would dare attack). They they don‘t realise that defending our own border is but a small requirement for our military. A line of trenches from BC to quebec won‘t stop terrorists from getting in or WMD from landing on ottawa.


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## chrisf (1 Jan 2004)

Well obviously... you left a huge gap... the country doesn‘t end in Quebec...


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## GhostRecce (1 Jan 2004)

hahahahahahahahah


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## Recce41 (1 Jan 2004)

Everyone thinks, â€œits we don‘t need oneâ€. The problem is the country does not understand us. Back as soon as the 60s. Militia units, would parade through the cities, have open house, and **** well showed what we did. The soldiers in the militia are the real, sells men. I go **** to units and see, the mess full, yng soldiers drunk. What does that so the people? All that shows is we are drunks and foul mouthed a55holes. 
 When I was in Winnipeg, a lot of people said this, "I don‘t know what you didâ€. They think we go out in the woods and shoot up the world.

 Canada is a Militia country, since 1867, our Army has been a professional Militia one. Back when militia soldiers trained the same as the Regs. Now, were lucky to get a NCO out for a course.
 Until we change the view of the military, the military will be sore in the goverment‘s pocket book.


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## Jarnhamar (1 Jan 2004)

But quebec is going to be the forward edge of battle when our forces push out to liberate the maritimes.


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## chrisf (1 Jan 2004)

Nonsense. Call the engineers. We‘ll sand bag Cape Breton and blow up the causeway. It‘ll be like the rock of Gibraltor, only with more parties.

And I‘d like to note that Newfoundland and Labrador is not a maritime province, it‘s actually an atlantic province (Maritime provinces are Quebec, PEI, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick. Atlantic Provinces are the maritime provinces + Newfoundland). 

Either that or you knew the afforementioned bit of information, and you already accept the fact that trying to invade Newfoundland would be like taking a belt sander to your genitals.


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## gate_guard (2 Jan 2004)

I agree wholeheartedly with Recce41‘s sentiments. There are many issues/concerns that need attention in todays CF from strategic lift, future of the armoured corp, artillery guns, and the list continues. One major concern is the state of the militia today. It is a given that the reg force is overstretched and in need of more dollars for training and equipment. But in terms of our public exposure more often than not this role falls to the militia. Unless you live in one of garrison cities, as a civilian you‘ve probably seen very little of anyone in uniform. To promote the CF to the forefront of the public‘s concerns, we need to pay more attention to the militia. This begins with more opportunities for getting out in our communities beyond the yearly Rememberance Day parade and the odd recruiting drive. But more than that, real standards need to established to bring the militia to  an acceptable level of training at all times. All I hear from my current CO is how fast my regiment is growing. Well that‘s great but Canada‘s military has never been about quantity as much as quality. As well, we in the militia need to get rid of the junior ranks mentality where we only show up to get paid and get drunk and take our job (albeit part time) a lot more seriously. To rehash IMO, if we are to "sell" the military to the public we need to provide more opportunities for the public to see their military and bring militia standards to a higher level of sustained training.


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## mattoigta (2 Jan 2004)

"Canada were asked what the leaders of Canada should be receiving the greatest amount of attention it was Unemployment/Jobs: 27% Health Care/Medicare: 40% Defense/Military: 1%"

That actually doesnt explain anything, obviously our military shouldn‘t be given top priority, over issues like Health Care or unemployment. 
As Franklin D Roosevelt once said "The core of our defence is the faith we have in
the institutions we defend."


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## gosho4 (2 Jan 2004)

I have a question.

If Militia Standards are improved couldent we rotate them on Missions like Bosnia and Afganistan.Wouldent it imrprove the Situation somehwat? And what if the DND created a Foreighn Legion or a force Tied to the UN as a lot of people would be for Increasing the Canadian Role in Peacekeeping etc thus Freeing our Regular forces from commitment in the UN hense freeing their Resources for better Equipment. Forces from the Foreign Unit have their own Budget Separate from CFs... And Also we Canada are one of the only Nations in the world with a larger Regular Force over our Reserves.The book was talking about again mid 90s but its still true.


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## xFusilier (2 Jan 2004)

I don‘t beleive that the Canadian public as a whole does not support the military.  On the whole I beleive that Canadians d support the military.  The problem is that they support the concept of a strong social safety net more that the concept of a strong military.  This has been borne out by numerous surveys.

When a single issue survey with reference to funding is conducted the vast majority of respondants state that military funding should be increased.  It is when asked to rank the miliitary as a funding priorty that the respondants are place the military below most aspects of federal spending.

I also believe that the military certainly shot itself in the foot with the "superbase" concept, I personally beleive that the cost savings were minimal and it only served to reduce the footprint of the military in the community.  Especially in 1 Bde where prior to concentrating in Edmonton, there was an Army presence right across Western Canada.


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## Mulan (2 Jan 2004)

RE: Comunity footprint
I‘ve noticed that when we send forces overseas, the eyes and hearts of a whole family go too. This concern often spreads out into the community, especially in small towns, and Canada has a lot of small towns. 
Interesting note - To paraphrase Rick Mercier from his recent X-mas TV special, there are a lot of NFLD‘ers in the forces because the CF is one of the largest employment options available.
 If the CF so directly impact on their community, I imagine they would be very interested in Govt financing of DND. More money = more jobs. This must also be true for other parts of Canada as well.
 Any thoughts on this?


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## chrisf (2 Jan 2004)

Not really. The bulk of Newfoundlanders employed by the CF are not employed inside the province.


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## jeff001 (4 Jan 2004)

Saying that the military requires more money will always be said.Every time something to do with a budget is brought up, the military is usually discussed.Perhaps the powers that be should start thinking more along the lines of applying the funding into the fighting units, and, the units that support them.Instead of pumping up that huge machine in Ottawa. There are more pers in Ottawa than there are fighting troops
combined.Understanding that a military has to be administrated,still the number of pers in Ottawa reflects only CF pers not including the civilian employees. To say that a third of the land forces are deployed, out of the 50K approx in the CF, how much does that really represent, and those are fighting troops, and direct support troops deployed as part of that third. Taking from the elements, Army Navy and Air, comparing the amount of fighting pers to the administrative pers, this does not make for a large offensive force.My main point is that we need more tooth not tail,and all the nice warm fuzzy things that the CF spends its budget on should be reduced.Out of the billions we get in budget dollars how much translates into bullets and how much translates into pens.


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## xFusilier (4 Jan 2004)

Okay I‘ll bite,



> all the nice warm fuzzy things that the CF spends its budget on should be reduced


Such as?


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## dbrock (7 Jan 2004)

Sounds to me like a granola eater setting the room up for a fight. The canadian military has great equipment but the troops need a raise in pay. It is all and good to have the toys, but if you have to put your family on welfare to make a living what is it worth staying in the service of your country.  Just an opinion from a Canadian Forces veteran living south of the border and has seen what has happened to the American Military. great toys but no decent pay or decent personal kit for the troopers. 

  :mg:


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## logau (7 Jan 2004)

See my paper at  http://www.donlowconcrete.com/USA 

There are lots of references to links that will help you

Also - look at Queens University‘s recent paper called "Canada Without Armed Forces" www.queensu.ca/sps/DMSP/claxton4.html

That should get you going - 

Email me for any puzzles - I have heard a lot of them.

Quick summary - follow the money = the priority of Canadians. I hate to see the grieving families when one of our soldiers gets hurt or worse. But the current government and its party have done the dirty work. 




> Originally posted by CDNguy:
> [QB] Im currently working on a paper to do with the over stretching of our military.


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## dbrock (9 Jan 2004)

Great paper,

i found it to be an interesting read. Keep up the good work.  :fifty:


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## RCD (10 Jan 2004)

First the role of the forces must be define.
 Once that it is established,then let‘s acquired the equipment even if not made in Canada label is not on it.


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## xFusilier (10 Jan 2004)

> Sounds to me like a granola eater setting the room up for a fight.


I don‘t know if this one was directed at me so:

1.  Whats wrong with granola, keeps ya regular!

2.  All I was really asking is what he felt the warm-fuzzy things that the CF spends its money one, to evolve the debate a little, maybe discuss whether or not some of the things that do not bear any relation to the sharp end of the stick actually do have value.  Stuff like that.


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## Paul Gagnon (17 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by CDNguy:
> [qb]
> Canada were asked what the leaders of Canada should be receiving the greatest amount of attention it was Unemployment/Jobs: 27% Health Care/Medicare: 40% Defense/Military: 1%[/qb]


Those results are skewed. The question was asking which was a higher priority and did not specifically ask if the military was wanted or needed. There have been several articles written taht prove this. Polls can be made to show just about anything and this is a prime example.


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## Franko (17 Jan 2004)

Anyone can make up statistics right off the top of their head...24.7% of Canadians know this.  

Warm fuzzy things...    crap that the CF does not need in order to do it‘s freakin‘ job. I‘m sick and tired of seeing all these bloody write ups and books that probably took a few tens of thousand dollars to print and paid some yahoo a few grand to write just so it can be all about the civies who work in NDHQ(you all know the one‘s I‘m talking about, Safety Digest, Lessons Learned etc). Does the guy in the trench, Leo, LavIII, M109, ship, or chopper need to read that crap? **** no! What about the incentives for pilots, doctors? Come on. They signed up and took the same oath as us, where is our signing bonus? It‘s all a load of poo. Here is another idea: If you want to trim the fat from the CF, start at the top. There is NO reason to have a civvie pulling down $120,000 a year working at NDHQ(and they exist). There is absolutly no reason to have 65 generals in the forces. Get rid of them and put in a Maj Gen as CDS, a Brigs to rep each of the services. Full Col for brigade comd/ Base Comd. There, just saved a few million in wages that could be put to better use, purchasing kit & training(both reg & res).

Gettin‘ mad now.... 

Another thing while I‘m on a roll...what is up with focus groups and studies paid for by the CF(for a handsome sum at that) which are primarilary staffed by civvies who aren‘t a serving member? Most times they come out of it with the same ideas that the Regimental comanders come up with. Wasted money....bah!   

What about all the guys and gals getting resigned for another 5 years after their 20 are done even though they are MIR commandos? They can‘t even be deployed! Believe me...they exist, most of us in the CF know at least ONE. Be honest with yourself and think about the troops in your unit. There‘s one in there someone.   

There is plenty of "niceities" or "fuzzies" that aren‘t req in the CF to do operations. After the Gulf War a receptionist went to a retreat for a couple of weeks to get rid of her stress. Cost to the taxpayer: approx $85,000! Personnaly, if she couldn‘t hack it, fire her and get a guy who‘s P Cat to do her job.

The unfortunate thing about this whole debacle of the CF being strapped for cash is: we saw it comming a long time ago and took the onslaught. We did what we do best. Train as hard as we can with what little we have and pull a few miracles out of our ***es. The whole of NATO member armies know we are the worst equiped, one of the best trained armies in the world. Now that we are starting to get back to what we were meant to do, actually deploy into combat and practicing our ‘art‘, the CF is starting to feel the pinch and pulling back on the reigns.

We used to have a buget of over 19 billion when I first got in(88). All we had on the go was Germany(the big drain of funds but needed the cold war was still on), Cyprus, Golan, Sini. Now it‘s down to 13ish and we‘re in Afganistan(2000 troops), Bosnia(1300 troops), Golan(200), Ivory Coast(unknown), with a government thats starting to warm up to the idea of us going into Iraq. 

The CF is now sitting at a table with a big sh!t sandwich in front of it...

Wanna take a bite?........ 

Or say enoughs enough!

Regards

  :rage:


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## Franko (18 Jan 2004)

I guess I‘ve had the last say?

Come on folks...lets hear what you have to say!!

Regards


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## Raincoast (18 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by CDNguy:
> [qb] Im currently working on a paper to do with the over stretching of our military.
> 
> basicly im seeing that the funds arent there because a) the government isnt all there, morons at times
> ...


No offence to your argument, but if you employ the same level of grammar and spelling on your paper as you do here you probably have bigger things about which to worry.

As for your points, I think that funds-for-more-peacekeeping is an idea most centre- and left-leaning Canadians could warm up to.


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## Raincoast (18 Jan 2004)

> A line of trenches from BC to quebec won‘t stop terrorists from getting in or WMD from landing on ottawa. [/QB]


But not joining the US in trying to keep the rest of the world at gun-point and manipulating the entire Middle East will at least make sure that any WMDs - mythical or otherwise - are aimed elsewhere.


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## jeff001 (19 Jan 2004)

Franko
I agree 100%. In the CF we have close to a dozen Lt Generals, one Lt General is supposed to be in command of 65,000 troops by international standards.This doesn‘t include the civilians who have the same signing authority in NDHQ or "Disney on the Rideau".
DND, is one of the largest employers in Ottawa-Hull region,it also rents some huge amount of buildings in the downtown area. Its is growing without limits,and as it grows it eats away at the budget, for the troops,sailors&airmen to do thier job.It would be an approx. guess to say that the amount spent on buildings or office space in Ottawa,would probably cover(some or most) of the cost of say, maybe some new choppers to replace the Seakings. Maybe some ammunition to hold a Brigade level exercise, or some aircraft to transport equipment, just in case there‘s a war, outside the training areas near our bases.


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## Franko (19 Jan 2004)

Tech...good points.

As for the last one...BBWWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA   

Regards


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## Spr.Earl (19 Jan 2004)

It‘s nice to you youngn‘s are awake!


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## Lexi (19 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by Recce41:
> [qb] Everyone thinks, ?its we don‘t need one?. The problem is the country does not understand us. Back as soon as the 60s. Militia units, would parade through the cities, have open house, and **** well showed what we did. The soldiers in the militia are the real, sells men. I go **** to units and see, the mess full, yng soldiers drunk. What does that so the people? All that shows is we are drunks and foul mouthed a55holes.
> When I was in Winnipeg, a lot of people said this, "I don‘t know what you did?. They think we go out in the woods and shoot up the world.
> 
> ...


I think he‘s absolutely right. I remember that when I was younger, I used to think that soldiers, or peace keepers in our case, were merciless killers that smoked, drank and swore alot. It wasn‘t until I actually met some soldiers that I found their basically just like you and me, and the majority are nice, kind, considerate guys. And girls.

As for your paper.. whoever it was that started this board... I think you are going somewhere with it. Strech the idea a little further and you may have yourself a 90.    

All my love,


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## teltech (19 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by TECH.:
> [qb] Franko
> I agree 100%. In the CF we have close to a dozen Lt Generals, one Lt General is supposed to be in command of 65,000 troops by international standards.This doesn‘t include the civilians who have the same signing authority in NDHQ or "Disney on the Rideau".[/qb]


As someone once told me after the airborne disbandment parade:
"They should turn NDHQ into a unit and disband it"


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## Franko (20 Jan 2004)

Teltech....we can only dream...

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! Disney on the Rideau GONE....

It‘ll never happen. As long as there is one soldier in Canada there will always be someone buggering it up.

Regards


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## tmbluesbflat (22 Jan 2004)

The biggest problem is the experience of many Canadians that are recent immigrants, they recall the military from where came, in most cases a horrifying memory. Other Canadians that served over the last fifty years know how they were treated by the Government when they were wounded, disabled etc.  they don‘t recommend it as an honourable proffesion to their children because of that lousy experience. We had first nations soldiers unable to get pensions etc. and pow‘s from Hong Kong that are still embroiled in a fight for what is owed them, until we get honourable politicians and senior civil servants in power. The military will be but a notch up above street beggers, maybe!


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## Franko (22 Jan 2004)

tmbluesflt....Thanks for calling all of us who serve a notch above street beggars. 

You got a bit of ‘splainin to do.

regards


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## tmbluesbflat (23 Jan 2004)

Those who serve are regarded by many as just a notch above street beggers, sorry for the confusion.


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## Franko (23 Jan 2004)

Yeah...thought so. I think we should ALL write this guy off. He/she is obviously a troll.

Go away tmbluesbflat, find some other forum to troll. 

WHO IS WITH ME?

Regards


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## Ex-Dragoon (23 Jan 2004)

If you have such a low opinion of the CF why are you even here? I agree Franko this dope smoker has the bearing of a troll (and not a very good one).


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## tmbluesbflat (24 Jan 2004)

Please try to understand the Language. I did not say that CDN service personell were a notch above street beggers. What I said is that is how they are regarded by many! When in fact they deserve better and have earned far better!


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## CSS Type (24 Jan 2004)

It appears that some are being overly sensitive. In my view tmblusesbflat was making an observation and trying to get a dialogue going. If you read what is being written, it doesn‘t appear to be trolling.


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## Franko (25 Jan 2004)

OK...lets try this again....

tmbluesbflat...would you care to expand on your comments? 

I understand the problems with Aboriginals getting their pensions after WW2. It‘s an absolute travesty. As is the fight for HK POWs getting their come uppance. I couldn‘t agree more!

This is all because of the VAO debacle after the war. It is being worked out, too bad the people who need it the most have, for the most part, passed away. 

As for being overly sensitive... I am far from it. I wanted to hear an explaination of his point of view CSS Type. It sounded more inflamitory than a POV. I have heard this bunk too many times from "trolls" and I‘m getting to the short end of the gun tube. 

Regards


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## tmbluesbflat (26 Jan 2004)

The respect thing or lack of, comes from events such as the Somolia affair, not from the event but from the handling and susequent investigation. The high command‘s criminal coverup and their with holding the truth from both the minister and prime minister of the day smacks of treason etc, that single affair lost more respect for the military than anything in previous Canadian history. I am not talking about Cadets or serving members in the ranks etc I am speaking of the cowards etc involved in that affair, coverups are the worst kind of public relations, the disbanding of a professional unit such as the AIRBORNE is a cowardly admission of incompetance, by both the politicians and the Military officers (they should have been cashiered). The public see‘s precious little of the day to day military, only officers and politicians are paraded for the old PHOTO_OPS. So what happens you guys do great work the idiots in Ottawa do their regular performance and all your hard work goes for naught. I hope that I am not missunderstood here, I was a serving member 40 years ago and it was exactly the same then, nothing has changed!


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## tmbluesbflat (26 Jan 2004)

here is one such coverup that occurred in the sixties, that caused many to leave the forces and to this day most don‘t really know what happened to them, in about the spring of 1964 the foces went to people serving in overseas posts BAOR for example, gave them a bs story about them being required to re-enlist (many reasons given, beaurocratic **** up was one) they were given small bonus and as part of program their innoculations were updated, with for many devistating consequences, because some were innoculated with the usual vacinnes (control) the others were injected with experimental products including an anthrax vaccine. Many of these victims came down with an assortment of horrifing ailaments including sterility, fathering children with birth defects of various types, a multitude of glandular problems. It was so bad thousands of career people got out, some thrown out several suicides resulted. It was so bad that an excuse was needed quickly, the mass exodus was blamed on the integration of the forces and that fiasco. Only those that had access to inside information, mostly officers etc ever got compensated if one can be compensated for such atrocities. This was all covered up both by senior military types and politicians. So goes the duty of commanders looking after their people. The result is the lack of respect for the military that veterans have, even though they don‘t know the whole story, they know they‘ve been screwed by their own officers. Any senior types tempted to spill the beans etc were severely threatened. So when you think that as soldiers you are not appreciated you are sorely misstaken, it is the cowardly business as usual aspect that causes many Canadians to object to more funding etc for the forces, they have long memories. You guys are highly respected, your regiments are proudly respected, your efforts are heroic, we know all this! The rot is at the TOP!!!


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## tmbluesbflat (26 Jan 2004)

I at times get a bit upset! this is one of those times! KDG


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## Franko (26 Jan 2004)

Now I understand your position and it‘s ringing true to my ears.

You served 40 years ago? Mind sharing any exploits?

As for the former PM(Mulroney) don‘t even get me started   

Regards


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## tmbluesbflat (26 Jan 2004)

Would you buy a hot Aircraft off of that man?


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## tmbluesbflat (26 Jan 2004)

One thing we did on exercises was red paint white stars (a little diversion) on command vehicles etc. and vanish leaving only that calling card. SAS used to think we were easy, but we set them up and captured two 4man units and let them swim a rather cold river for a bit, pissed them right off. Their CO made noises, but we pointed out that his boys had used sigs wire for the swims they sent us on. The SAS you might say have officers, but don‘t really use them like most army units, the NCO‘s know all the drills etc(AS USUAL) the officers are mostly brought in to command things but the Senior NCO"s run the shop usually, it is a very effective MO.


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## Franko (26 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by tmbluesbflat:
> [qb] Would you buy a hot Aircraft off of that man? [/qb]


Not in a million years   
During his reign corruption ruled the roost in NDHQ. We all know this to be true. It was finally brought to light during the Somolia hearings(convieniatly stopped). Then the CDS "retires" before he could hang for the Deputy minister‘s handling of the case/ operation. Bob Fowler should be thrown in prison for the things he pulled in NDHQ....

But that‘s another story   

Regards


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## tmbluesbflat (26 Jan 2004)

in fact it is the same story, the escape plan laid out by these and similar criminals, one retires and the rest get off scot free, every known screw up in the history of the Canadian Forces follows the same game plan, history is a very good teacher! All examples of why Candians don‘t trust the Military when it comes to integrity, and honourable conduct at the upper echelons, experience and history tell the story.


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## Franko (27 Jan 2004)

It‘s more like the public doesn‘t relize that there is a pressure for the upper echelons to behave that way, mostly from the ministers office.

Regards


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## tmbluesbflat (28 Jan 2004)

one of the fundamental rights a soldier has( any Soldier) is the right to question an order he believes to be wrong (criminal) The US is choking on this one right now and one of the reasons is what occured at KENT STATE now some 30 years ago! it is down right pitiful!


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