# general commentaries from a Marine just back from Iraq



## geo

Got this from a LCol I know. It's from a former Marine first sergeant -
thought you might be interested in his son's assessment of weapons and enemy
tactics in Iraq (the boy is home from his first tour, going back in early
2006, and early re-enlisted for another 4 years.) No idea of its validity,
but some interesting items in it.

Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and interested
guys.  A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my son Jordan, who
was on his first leave since returning from Iraq.  He is well (a little
thin), and already bored.  He will be returning to Iraq for a second tour in
early '06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4 more years.   He loves the
Marine Corps and is actually looking forward to returning to Iraq.

Jordan spent 7 months at "Camp Blue Diamond" in Ramadi.  Aka: Fort Apache.
He saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me about weapons,
equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which may be of interest to
you.  Nothing is by any means classified.  No politics here, just a Marine
with a bird's eye view's opinions:

1)  The M-16 rifle :  Thumbs down.  Chronic jamming problems with the talcum
powder like sand over there.  The sand is everywhere.  Jordan says you feel
filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower.  The M-4 carbine version is
more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems
also.  They like the ability to mount the various optical gun sights and
weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in
a desert environment.    They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor
penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso
hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.   Fun fact:  Random
autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

2)  The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon):  .223 cal. Drum fed light machine
gun.  Big thumbs down.  Universally considered a piece of shit.  Chronic
jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly (that's fun in
the middle of a firefight).

3)  The M9 Beretta 9mm:  Mixed bag.  Good gun, performs well in desert
environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge.  The use of handguns for
self-defense is actually fairly common.  Same old story on the 9mm:  Bad
guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4)  Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun:  Works well, used frequently for
clearing houses to good effect.

5)  The M240 Machine Gun:  7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun,
developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!).
Thumbs up.  Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down.
Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being
dismounted and taken into the field by infantry.  The 7.62 round chews up
the structure over there.

6)  The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun:  Thumbs way, way up.  "Ma deuce" is
still worth her considerable weight in gold.  The ultimate fight stopper,
puts their dicks in the dirt every time.  The most coveted weapon
in-theater.

7)  The .45 pistol:  Thumbs up.  Still the best pistol round out there.
Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one.
With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso
hit.  The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the
HK military model and supposedly love it.  The old government model .45's
are being re-issued en masse.

8)  The M-14:  Thumbs up.  They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a
modified version to special ops guys.  Modifications include lightweight
Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights.  Very reliable in the
sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9)  The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle:  Thumbs way up.  Spectacular range and
accuracy and hits like a freight train.  Used frequently to take out vehicle
suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy.
Definitely here to stay.

10)  The M24 sniper rifle:  Thumbs up.  Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win
mag.  Heavily modified Remington 700's.  Great performance. Snipers have
been used heavily to great effect.  Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his
third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record
for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11)  The new body armor:  Thumbs up.  Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs.
and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an
AK-47 round.  The bad news:  Hot as shit to wear, almost unbearable in the
summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees).  Also, the enemy now goes for
head shots whenever possible.  All the bullshit about the "old" body armor
making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter.  The IED
explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in
most cases.

12)  Night Vision and Infrared Equipment:  Thumbs way up.  Spectacular
performance.  Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period.  Very
little enemy action after evening prayers.  More and more enemy being
whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams.  We've all seen
the videos.

13)  Lights:  Thumbs up.  Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are
Surefire's, and the troops love 'em.  Invaluable for night urban operations.
Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance
are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!!   With all our technology, it's the WWII
and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!!   The infantry fighting  is
frequent, up close and brutal.  No quarter is given or shown.


Bad guy weapons

1)  Mostly AK47's   The entire country is an arsenal.  Works better in the
desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably.  PKM belt fed
light machine guns are also common and effective.  Luckily, the enemy mostly
shoots like shit.  Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire.  However, they
are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran,
again)   Fun fact:  Captured enemy have apparently marveled at  the
marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight.  They are apparently told
in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be
easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness.  Let's
just say they know better now.

2)  The RPG:  Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys.  Simple,
reliable and as common as dogshit.  The enemy responded to our up-armored
humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range.  Still
killing a lot of our guys.

3)  The IED:  The biggest killer of all.  Can be anything from old Soviet
anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells.  A lot found in Jordan's
area were in abandoned cars.  The enemy would take two or three 155mm
artillery shells and wire them together.  Most were detonated by cell phone,
and the explosions are enormous.  You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1
tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there.
Lately, they are much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iranian)
specifically designed to penetrate armor.  Fact:  Most of the ready made
IED's  are supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah
types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics.  That's why the
attacks have  been so deadly lately.  Their concealment methods are
ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray
painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads.  We find
about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes
of this war.

4)  Mortars and rockets:  Very prevalent.  The soviet era 122mm rockets
(with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent.  One of Jordan's NCO's
lost a leg to one.  These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire".
Jordan's base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and
rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It
did).  More of a psychological weapon than anything else.  The enemy mortar
teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a
matter of seconds.

5)  Bad guy technology:  Simple yet effective.  Most communication is by
cell and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops.  They use handheld
GPS units for navigation and "Google earth" for overhead views of our
positions.  Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their
explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE.  Night vision is rare.
They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and
laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.


Who are the bad guys?

Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group..  They operate
mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi).  These are mostly
"foreigners", non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world
(and Europe).  Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge
and complicity of the Syrian govt.) , and then travel down the "rat line"
which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we've been
hitting hard for the last few months.  Some are virtually untrained young
Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in "sacrifice squads".
Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al
Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.)  These are the guys running around murdering
civilians en masse and cutting heads off.  The Chechens (many of whom are
Caucasian), are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters (they
have been fighting the Russians for years).  In the Baghdad area and south,
most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites.  The
Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt.'s,
the police forces and the Army. The have had a massive spy and agitator
network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80's.   Most of the
Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long ago.


Bad Guy Tactics

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every
time.  Brave, but stupid.  Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common
earlier in the war and still occur.  They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man
teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing Ak's and RPG's
directly at our bases just to probe the defenses.  They get mowed down like
grass every time.  (see the M2 and M240 above).  Jordan's base was hit like
this often.  When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same
building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand.
Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not.
These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting
Room).  We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science.  The
fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on
the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130
Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially
at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all.  Fun fact:  The
enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand.  That is why we're
seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber shit. The
new strategy is simple:  attrition.

The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian
non-combatants as cover.  They know we do all we can to avoid civilian
casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) mosques are
locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and
flee to when engaged.  They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for
civilian casualties.  They will terrorize locals and murder without
hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new
Iraqi govt.  Kidnapping of family members (especially children) is common to
influence people they are trying to influence but can't reach, such as local
govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.).

The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured".  They know that
if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi
openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman.
This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a shit about
the war.   A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common
criminals and sold to Zarqawi.  As such, for our guys, every fight is to the
death.  Surrender is not an option.

The Iraqi's are a mixed bag.  Some fight well, others aren't worth a shit.
Most do okay with American support.  Finding leaders is hard, but they are
getting better.  It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers,
en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake.
Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the
police forces went up, along with their motivation.  It also led to an
exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the
insurgent attacks against civilians.  The Kurds are solidly pro-American and
fearless fighters.

According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high. They not only
believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively.  They are
stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they
almost universally view as against them.  The embedded reporters are
despised and distrusted.  They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1
and then see shit like "Are we losing in Iraq" on TV and the print media.
For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and
leadership.  Bottom line though, and they all say this, there are not enough
guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency,
primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the
borders with Iran and Syria.  The Iranians and the Syrians just can't stand
the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course, permanent US
bases there).


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## jmackenzie_15

Very interesting read.
I love stuff like this... whether it cant be considered fact or not, it is a mans opinion who was there on the ground, and should be considered.


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## Forgotten_Hero

Wait a sec... M243 SAW?


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## Sig_Des

Forgotten_Hero said:
			
		

> Wait a sec... M243 SAW?



what about it?


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## jmackenzie_15

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> what about it?



Either we're both wrong or thinking the same thing, I thought it was M240? Not that it matters much... typos happen.


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## KevinB

M249 SAW is the C9...


 Most of these points DO NOT jive with comments from friends of mine in the HSLD field of the US mil.


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## Sig_Des

M240 is a 7.62

http://www.fnmfg.com/products/m240fam/m240.htm


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## George Wallace

Read the post closely and you will see one is referring to 5.56 and the other to 7.62.   Two completely different MGs.   One is like our C9 and the other is like our C6.   If you pay attention to what he is saying about the stopping power of the different Calibres on "Opiated" murdering thugs, then you will see where he is going.   Bigger is better.   WW II and Vietnam era Technology is still proving better than a lot of more modern stuff.


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## Forgotten_Hero

> what about it?



Aint it the M249 SAW?



> I thought it was M240



The M240 is our C6. The M249 SAW is our C9. As far as I know, there is no M243 SAW.


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## jmackenzie_15

I agree with the vietnam era weapons comment though... hopefully after these kinds of experiences, our weapons projects will shift back towards more stopping power .... the days of the soviet invasion are over, and using   5.56 rounds to wound their friendly troops, causing two men to carry and care for him, making three casualties are over. Typically it doesnt seem like these insurgents care much about their fellow jihadists, especially since the goal of their attack is to die fighting the enemy.

But about the m243 thing, I think Forgotten_Hero was thinking the same thing I was, when he said M243 (SAW).. the M240 is the saw, the M243 is the C6 equivalent that fires the 7.62.
Correct me if im wrong but isnt the C6 a german designed weapon? and isnt the M243 the exact same thing.. I remember a couple years ago one of my MCpls was telling me about how much the americans liked the c6 and were considering/ in the process of adopting it.


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## jmackenzie_15

Hero, my bad again. You are right:

M240 = C6
M249 = C9

The guy who wrote that probobly just screwed up the numbers accidentally... it isnt really that important, the meat and potatoes of it to me where the parts about enemy tactics, training, equipment and capabilities. Things im far less familiar with.


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## George Wallace

FN = Fabrique Nationale a company in Belgium that has let licences out to other nations.   The C 6 is an FN product, as is the Minimi C9.


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## jmackenzie_15

George Wallace said:
			
		

> FN = Fabrique Nationale a company in Belgium that has let licences out to other nations.   The C 6 is an FN product, as is the Minimi C9.



Did they design the weapon as well, or were they just given the contract to build them for us ?


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## KevinB

They designed them

The M240/C6 started life of the FN MAG-58

The M249/C9 - the FN MINIMI


If this is supposed to be a MARINES view -- their sniper rifle is the M40A1/A2 - NOT the Army's M24.


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## Infanteer

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/showthread.php?t=54209

If you look over at SOCNET, the BTDT's there believe this to be a piece of Internet fake spam-mail.  They debunk it on this link and on another that I can't find - they also, from their experience in Iraq, disagree with alot of what is said in the piece.

It definately wasn't written by a Marine.


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## Slim

KevinB said:
			
		

> Most of these points DO NOT jive with comments from friends of mine in the HSLD field of the US mil.



Can you elaborate?


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## Infanteer

Slim said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate?



Check the SOCNET link out - it gives you some.


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## Forgotten_Hero

> The guy who wrote that probobly just screwed up the numbers accidentally... it isnt really that important, the meat and potatoes of it to me where the parts about enemy tactics, training, equipment and capabilities. Things im far less familiar with.



No, I dont think so. Do you see anyone, especially someone who supposedly handled these weapons first hand or saw them being handled by his buddy, not knowing the name of those weapons? I have yet to see anyone who's in any position to possibly use these kinds of weapons mistake their names. Hell, I have yet to see anyone who's graduated from SQ mistaking the names of the weapons. Coupled with the all the other discreptancies, I find the article to be quite suspect...

Oh, and he could have redeemed himself partially if he'd atleast known that SAW stands for Squad Automatic Weapon.


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## Long in the tooth

I have no doubt about the validity of these observations, but I'm quite surprised at the poor performance of the C7/C9 series.   I felt the C9 was far superior to the C2.... would the writer have a C6 as a section weapon to replace the C9?   I'd rather have one weapon that works well than 2 that are crap.

Do I detect a bit of tongue in cheek when he says the M60 was a great piece of kit?   In my experience the 'pig' was just that, and I was thankful the C6 came in.   The C6 was more in line with the German concept of a LMG/MMG/HMG design, able to be used in advance to contact as well as an SF weapon.

Good observations, thanks.


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## Infanteer

It talks about Army systems, it misnames pieces of kit, it has timings screwed up, and it falsely describes Insurgent TTPs.   As well, most BTDT's tend to disagree with what is said - it's a flaming pile of BS, so don't read too deeply into it.


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## Forgotten_Hero

What are BTDTs anyway?


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## Infanteer

Been There, Done That.


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## Munner

"9)  The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle:  Thumbs way up.  Spectacular range and
accuracy and hits like a freight train.  Used frequently to take out vehicle
suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy.
Definitely here to stay."


I've read this before - that they stop suicide bombers in cars before they have a chance to detonate. I was wondering how they know which car is a suicide bomber and which is your average civilian as they are both approaching a roadblock. Is it just that the suicide bombers drive towards the roadblock ignoring orders to slow down or stop??


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## KevinB

I'm so vindicated  ;D


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## 1feral1

The M240B is made by FN out of South Carolina. It is the US modified version of a MAG 58. It has a unique flash suppressor, a heat shield to prevent burns to the hands, and a slightly different bipod. The use of marynl for the butt instead of wood, and a Picatinny rail on the feed cover. Aside from that no different the current MAG58. The gas system is adjusted like the C9, normal and adverse. Again simplified and soldier proof. I have worked on many of these. Check out some pics of the M240B in the weapons area of the galleries section on this site and see for yourself. I loaded some a while back.

Now, the M249 SAW. This too is made by FN out of the USA, and the latest version has got the traditional FNH reciever beat. Nice grey phosphated finnish, new robust welds along the cocking handle rail, plastic stock, and a modified cocking handle 'stop', plus a folding carrying handle, an oil filled buffer, one piece milled Picatinny rail on the feed cover, and a unique heat shield makes it the best version of this LSW I have wever seen, although too I am NOT a lover of this weapon. It puts our F89A1(P) and the C9 (that I knew in 1995) to shame in quality. The most important feature yet is the removal of the adjustable gas system! No more normal and adverse! Just a direct feed, similar to the US M60.

The M243 must be a typing error.

Australia will pick this new featured gas block up, along with the folding carrying handle on it's future F89 Minimi series of LSWs (so I have been told anyways).

Good on the Yanks for evolving these two MGs to meet their specs. Both versions are very nice weapons, with the exception of the M240B's bipod, It has the adjusting nut for 'bipod spread' ommitted from its design. This is the only thing I personally do not like.

As for the negative vibes on the M4, its the opposite here, the M4 and M16 FOW generally have had good reports coming out. It sounds like the author is a bit biased about the rifle anyways. Australia has used the M16 FOW for almost 40 years. I will agree there is the question of penetration, but I have seen Minimis chew thru besa blocks and concrete without a problem. Yes, 7.62 does give a better chew. As for its (5.56) effectivness on human targets, the rd is very effective it its present 62gr form, and the new Mk262 77gr bullet is also getting good reviews. US Army and USMC vets of the war (some only back for a matter of weeks and are here right now) I have spoke to have nothing but good things to say about the M16 FOW, and a mixed bag on the M249.

Give me 10 days, and I'll have pics of the new gas system on the US M249 on here, as I have worked on sereral here at AASAM. 

Now about previous GPMGs, I had used the C1/C5 (Browning M1919A4s in 7.62mm format for those that came after these went out), and the US M60 to which I had fired and learned about a little in my expereince in the CF while with trg the US in the early 80's and early 90's. I had limited time on it, and it was new to me. It put our old '.30 wartimer' converts to shame. For those that dont know, Canada never adopted the M60. In one sentance, I hated the C1/C5 GPMG. Fine if you were reminicing on Utah Beach or Buna and Gona from a historical prospective :warstory: . This MG had long past its use by date, and when the FNH MAG 58 which we called the C6 arrived in the late 80's it was like going from Ford Model T to Chevy's Corvette! For the record, the ADF still uses the .30, upgraded to an open bolt firere called the L3A3/A4. Its used in the T50 turret on the M113 APC sharing the turret along side the .50 M2 HB. All .30s are wartimers. So well over 60yrs on, still chugging away the 4B1T. This and the .50, the Timex Marlins of MGs.

I really did not get to know the '60' until I came to Australia, as it was in wide spread service. I had carried the beast a few times (once on a 15 klicker when I was fresh off the boat), fired it in hot, dry and jungle conditions and worked on an extensive M60 rebuild program, firing 10's of thousands of rds thru them over a period of years. Rarely a stoppage. A combat proven MG one will still find today in use all over the world.

I can be critical of the bipod as each leg must be opened one at a time, and the absence of a carrying handle on the barrel (its on the reciever), which makes it difficult to remove when hot. The bolt also chewed out alot, but it was in many ways soldier proof, with the exception one could put the gas piston in reversed, and it then fired only single shot ;D.

I liked the idea of no gas settings, adn the beast was very much 'armourer' friendly too. Very easy to strip, maintain, and fault find. Today we still have the D series door gun still in the system, but its days are numbered. The fleet of GPMGs met its fate when the lot shy of a small qty were destroyed in 2003/04. These MGs were on a lend/lease term with Australia, and we either had to rtn them to the US or burn them when we wre done with them. The US did NT want them back. So ends a GPMG era with the ADF. The M60 saw the Australians thru Viet Nam, and it has earned its place of honour for its service. I prefer it to the MAG 58, but that just me. The MAG is not maintenance friendly.
This from an armourer's prospective.

Anyways its after 0700 here on Monday, and I gotta get to breakfast. We have the lday of today, my 1st in 21 days! Its has been welcomed with a big smile.

Cheers,

Wes


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## geo

The post came from a source that I considered reliable.... but as is presented, was delivered 2nd or 3rd hand and not by the Marine in question.

"from a LCol I know. It's from a former Marine first sergeant -
thought you might be interested in his son's assessment "

made for an interesting read anyway.

if the former marine was from Vietnam days, he might very well have a grudge against the M16 and a love affair going with the M60s 7.62 ammo... oh well ?!?!


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## Daidalous

It is sad when the M-16 (C-7) did not live up to  it's hype during the Vietnam war,  and still does not today.    Do not get me wrong it is a very good weapon as long as you don't have to expose it to water or get it dirty.   AK-47's are a really  great weapon as that you can do almost anything to it, and it will not die,  just don't try and do any accuracy shooting with it.


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## geo

the AK in itself is not a bad weapon.
Leaving the AK in the hands of people not trained to look after them is part of the problem... then again, they take a lickin and keep on kickin. Fighting in close quarters, you don't really need the foresight - when your doctrine is more like "pray and spray" pretty much anything you can lay your hands on is good enough.

The C7/8/9s should / are great weapon systems in the hands of trained soldiers with the resources to maintain them. (imagine those optical sights going on the fritz).

Some AKs have found their way into our NATO arsenals. Some of our soldiers have found them to be quite effective AND they make up some deficiencies that our gov'ts have been slow to correct.


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## pte. Massecar

About the comment on the C6 being German. As stated its Belgian BUT the Mag 58 is very similar in design to the MG42, the world's first modern GPMG. Won't get into German machine gun tactics, but I'll leave it at this.


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## Slim

Cpl Massecar said:
			
		

> About the comment on the C6 being German. As stated its Belgian BUT the Mag 58 is very similar in design to the MG42, the world's first modern GPMG. Won't get into German machine gun tactics, but I'll leave it at this.



How do you figure that they are similer?


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## aesop081

Cpl Massecar said:
			
		

> Won't get into German machine gun tactics, but I'll leave it at this.



Please.....with your 2.5 years as a reservist, enleighten us about machine gun tactics...... :



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> How do you figure that they are similer?



Damned, you beat me to it


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## KevinB

Slim said:
			
		

> How do you figure that they are similer?



They both start with M    ;D

Internally there have NO resemblance.


Take a U turn, and get back in your lane Cpl Mascara.



Dont get me started on a AK rant.
  For CQB they suck -- try reloading quickly...
try doing the drills will attempting to keep your hand on the pistol grip 
Etc.


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## TCBF

How about the MAG 58 having the gas system of the BAR (you know how John Moses was tight with the Belgians) and the feed and trigger gps of the (insert names here).

Tom


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## Michael Dorosh

TCBF said:
			
		

> How about the MAG 58 having the gas system of the BAR (you know how John Moses was tight with the Belgians) and the feed and trigger gps of the (insert names here).
> 
> Tom



In terms of its employment, the MAG58 and the MG42 are very similar; can be used as either light, medium or heavy MGs, with high rate of fire, and fed from a belt - and both have historically been used as both a section automatic as well as employed in separate weapons detachments.  In that respect the initial comment about similiarity is correct - without reference to the actual guts of either gun.

The BAR had more in common, with regards to employment, with the Bren Gun, being a magazine fed gun really only useful in the section automatic role.  Bren Gun did have a tripod set up and could be used in either a sustained fire or anti-aircraft role (especially with a proper AA sight and drum magazine) but wasn't the weapon of choice for either.  The BAR was decidedly substandard even just comparing the section automatic role, but bear in mind BAR was designed in 1918 to be fired advancing from the hip (US cartridge belts had a special socket for the butt of the BAR to stabilize it as the gunner crossed No Man's Land) while the Bren was more of a "modern" design coming out in the mid 1930s via the Czechs.

I sincerely hope we won't be stooping to ridiculing people because of their last names or length of service.  A mistake was made, why not let it go at that.


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## 1feral1

At least the BAR fired from an open bolt. Remember our C2? Now that was impractical!

The MG42 and MAG58 have really nothing in common mechanically and design wise, but the M60 had taken some ideas from both the Lewis and MG42. Another urban myth busted.

So, unless you had carried it, used it, abused it, swore at it, been bitten by it, and cleaned it way too many tiimes to mention, don't comment on it if you are just an armchair critic.

Cheers (and beers),

Wes


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## starlight_cdn

geo said:
			
		

> Mostly AK47's     The entire country is an arsenal.   Works better in the
> desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably.   PKM belt fed
> light machine guns are also common and effective.   Luckily, the enemy mostly
> shoots like crap.



This runs counter to all ballistics test and anecdotal evidence from the US Army Medical Corp. 7.62X39 will not penetrate Level III armour reliably. Its wounds ballistics are minimal compared to 5.56 NATO. 

Additionally, a wounded soldier/marine can be evac'd, treated and air-evac'd to a hospital in Germany less than 8 hours. The Americans have reduced their death rate of wounded to less than 10%. Compared to 20% for Desert Storm and around 30% for Vietnam. Learned all this on Ex with the Yanks CONUS.

PKM shoots different rounds.....7.62X54R, not 7.62X39. A veteran would know this.

All the comments about the unreliability of the M16, M4, M249 and the reliability of the M9, run counter to all the intel has been e-mailed to me. From pers experience the AK is not a great primary.....not my first choice.

Methinks thou doth protest too much!


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## geo

Starlight...
All I did was post a document to the forum .
The source has been , up till now, been extremely reliable and I took this document at face value. If some have a problem with the document.... you're welcome to your opinion.... at least it generated some interest and discussion.


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## TCBF

"PKM shoots different rounds.....7.62X54R, not 7.62X39. A veteran would know this."

- He probably does.   He did not say they fired the same ammo.

"In terms of its employment.."

- I wasn't talking about it's employment.   I was talking about it's technical lineage.   So, from:

http://remtek.com/arms/fn/mag/   , we get:

".....   The bolt's rearward travel is thus retarded and primary extraction is initiated. This system, taken from the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), "   and

"forward and lift it off. Replace in the opposite manner. This method is taken from the Belgian FN Model D Browning Automatic Rifle, except the direction of rotation has been reversed." and

"Thus each set of pawls acts, in turn, as feed and stop pawls as the cartridge slides half way across with each forward and rearward motion of the bolt. This method, adopted from the MG42, produces a smooth belt flow instead of a series of herky-jerky movements." and

"The trigger mechanism is exactly that of the MG42 and a fine one it is." 


In support of the gun plummer's comments above:

"And now the fun begins. The FN MAG 58, especially the gas system, is more complex and difficult to maintain than the M60." and

"There is a trade off. The MAG will operate far longer under adverse conditions without maintenance than the M60."

As my dear departed mother always said, "There is nothing new under the sun."

Tom


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## TCBF

In any case, it seems to me that most of the technical disputes some have with the article in question may in fact be POLITICAL disputes on a sub-concious plane.  The author's MAIN premise, is that Iraq is a war againt Iran for the future freedom (from Iranian Imperialism) of Iraq, and that contrary to our Marxist-indoctrinated educated elite, the West - on the backs of the US military - is winning it.

Accepting this would lead to the unacceptable conclusion that "A just war is being fought in Iraq by the USA, and by not doing our part to help, WE ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY."

Comments?

How many more young US Marines have to die because of our gutless inability to come to their aid?

I guess our WWII generation truly was our greatest generation.

Tom


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## Britney Spears

> In any case, it seems to me that most of the technical disputes some have with the article in question may in fact be POLITICAL disputes on a sub-concious plane.



Uhh, really? I think we are picking out the technical mistakes to prove that the author is a fraud, and that his commentary on weapon systems are a pile of crap,  regardless of his political subtext.


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## Michael Dorosh

TCBF said:
			
		

> In any case, it seems to me that most of the technical disputes some have with the article in question may in fact be POLITICAL disputes on a sub-concious plane.   The author's MAIN premise, is that Iraq is a war againt Iran for the future freedom (from Iranian Imperialism) of Iraq, and that contrary to our Marxist-indoctrinated educated elite, the West - on the backs of the US military - is winning it.
> 
> Accepting this would lead to the unacceptable conclusion that "A just war is being fought in Iraq by the USA, and by not doing our part to help, WE ARE ON THE WRONG SIDE OF HISTORY."
> 
> Comments?
> 
> How many more young US Marines have to die because of our gutless inability to come to their aid?
> 
> I guess our WWII generation truly was our greatest generation.
> 
> Tom



I think that the perception on the part of Canadians is that no direct threat to our way of life exists.  My own dissatisfaction with US actions is that there was no mandate from the UN.  Quite likely that mandate would never have come in a timely manner.  Bit of a quandry that.  I'm not sorry the US did what it did, in retrospect, and I'm not all that sorry Canada sat it out.  I think we've done our bit in Afghanistan and continue to do so.  The inability of the US to provide the crucial link between world terrorism, WMD, and Saddam personally is unfortunately a bit of a monkeywrench and a strain on their credibility.  It will likely take another disaster on the scale of the WTC to engender much support among Canadians for further extension of the conflict against terrorism.  I wonder if our enemies would be stupid enough to do that.


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## TCBF

Britney,

I like your new pic, I guess the school photos must be in, eh?   ;D

Not all of his article is bunk.  And a bit of bunk does not delegitimize the whole article.  If it did, everything you and I and everyone else wrote on this site would be classed as bunk, as well.

No, it's no conspiracy, getting two soldiers to agree on all the merits or demerits of ANY system - weapons or human - is nigh on impossible.  We don't expect it here, we should not expect it from any other Army either.

I would say the article may have points we can disagree with, just like anything written by any of our soldiers.

We just have a cadre of those who - deep in their hearts - don't want to believe  any of it because they can't believe ALL of it.

Just plain silly, if you ask me.

Tom


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## Britney Spears

I wasn't referring to his opinions. They're mostly meaningless anyway. What does "thumbs up" and thumbs way up" mean?  I am referring to FACTUAL errors which basically indicate that these "opinions" are from a video game.

For example, how did this young MARINE on his first tour become such an expert on the M24 SWS, an ARMY weapon which the Marines do not issue?

You think the author of this article will last very long here at army.ca?


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## KevinB

Tom,

 The point is nearly 100% of the article has been shown to be crap -- it flies in the face of the AAR's done by units and by guys that I have spoken to, as well as having been proven false over on SOCNET.

 As such as the author has been disproven to be 1) a US Marine 2) a valid ARR

It comes to the conclusion that you can trust ZERO of whatelse he/she/it is spouting off on.


You, I and other here may disagree on some issues to be certain - but the only ones I put to ignore mode are ones like the articles author - someone speaking entirely out of their *** and making up qualifications etc.   Like the schoolskids who pretend they are from Dwyer Hill and they have the superninja scoobee snack packing list for...

Edit my guess is the "authors" only experience with the USMC is watching Jarhead.


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## starlight_cdn

geo said:
			
		

> Starlight...
> All I did was post a document to the forum .
> The source has been , up till now, been extremely reliable and I took this document at face value. If some have a problem with the document.... you're welcome to your opinion.... at least it generated some interest and discussion.



My comments were not directed at you, per se. My apologies, if it was taken that way. There are a number of inequities within the posted document. Things that do no match the laws of physics.......ie Wound Ballistics. 

*KevinB wrote:*


> Like the schoolskids who pretend they are from Dwyer Hill and they have the superninja scoobee snack packing list for...


 I love it... :cheers:


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## TCBF

"Edit my guess is the "authors" only experience with the USMC is watching Jarhead."

Maybe, or maybe someone who did a tour as a cook wanted to create a cloak of respectability for his opinions.  Point is - an awfull lot of naysayers came out of the woodwork on this, and I am convinced it was more than just the bloopers in the post that drew them out.

As to how long he would last on this site: I imagine if he has actually served in Iraq - flawed opinions and all - he would last until he got sick of us.

But, I chose to tolerate/encourage a certain range of opinions/disent that makes others uncomfortable at times.  I'm just a hairless hippie at heart, I guess.

 ;D

Gotta go eat my free supper now.

Tom


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## KevinB

Tom, I always jump on the weapons posts especially when they are full od SH*T.

 If I found a cook posting AAR's as a Infanteer, I'd be doing my damnedest to have him flogged/exposed and run off.


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## TCBF

Then again, if he was a VN era cook who stood stag on Firebase Rosierottencrotch in '69, and was mortared for his troubles, now his son is in The Crotch, and he is passing on what his son told him coloured through his experience and his Pappy's from the 'Canal.....   I think you see what I mean. 

Life just doesn't happen in tight little neat compartments.

Tom


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## McAllister

Hey, whether the 'author' is a Marine or not, ya gotta admit, 'Allah's Waiting Room' is a pretty funny concept when you're dealing with these insurgents.

Hey, I report in to the School of Infantry on the 29th. Not too soon until I see for myself, anyway. Wish me luck at school, eh?


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## Forgotten_Hero

> Hey, I report in to the School of Infantry on the 29th. Not too soon until I see for myself, anyway. Wish me luck at school, eh?



Ill wish you luck in not getting some old poorly maintained bolt action C9 which cant even hold the box on for more than 3 steps.


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## KevinB

FH - that would be M249 SAW for him...


Goodluck Marine.


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## 1feral1

McAllister said:
			
		

> .
> 
> Hey, I report in to the School of Infantry on the 29th. Not too soon until I see for myself, anyway. Wish me luck at school, eh?



Good luck Leatherneck! Let us know how ya go. Currently we have some USMC guys here from Virginia, they have been a real hoot.

Cheers,

Wes


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## SgtWalsh

Ya good luck McAllister, its been nice having you as a guest in my house now get your ass down to Camp Geiger and get that training done devil dog!!!  Semper Fi brother, keep in touch.


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## McAllister

Never Forget it, bro. That was a fine example pf the Semper Fidelis they teach from day one. Never forgotten.

Excited to get more training to be a better Marine, even if I am leaving on a "low" note. I'll redeem myself, by god!!!


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## SgtWalsh

HAHAHA its all good man, we know it happens.  I wont devulge any more detials.  I will let you do that.  Make sure when youre on libo to hit up La Mirage and The Cave.  Just a few sites that need to be seen while you are in J-Actionville.


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## McAllister

What do you think of this thread, Sgt. Walsh? You think this guy's legit? Anyone with a subscription to a political/military magazine of any type could've told us about those weapons failures. It's common knowledge that an wee lil M-16 is crap.

Why do the riflemen have the best job but the worst weapons?

P.S. I heard the layout of the streets in Jacksonville were  Pawn Shop ---> Strip club  ----> Wendy's -----> Strip Club -----> Strip Club ------> Pawnshop ----> Wendy's...
...And 40,000 United States Marines ready to slap the 'boots' around a bit. Good Training.


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## PJ D-Dog

It's obvious that both Pvt McAllister and Sgt Walsh have decided to hijack this thread.  As a result, we are all witnessing what two Marines can do when they enter a room and proceed to "TAKE OVER".  Oh, I love this stuff.....now, the question at hand, can the Griffon air lift the LG1...not.


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## 1feral1

About the US M249 SAW as previously discussed on this thread. Wanna see some pics? Then go to Foreign Militaries, and find the Armourers of AASAM thread.

I posted some pics of the M249 and other fun things this am.

Cheers,

Wes


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## McAllister

Oops. Sorry.


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## Forgotten_Hero

> It's common knowledge that an wee lil M-16 is crap.



I wouldnt say its crap. I've never had a problem with my C7 (Canadian version of the M16 in case you didnt know). I dont have as much experience with it as some of the other guys, but I do find that the C7 is only as crappy as the rifleman makes it by neglecting proper handling and care for it.


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## KevinB

:  Some of us have the option of using AK's -- make mine a M4


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## 1feral1

KevinB said:
			
		

> :   Some of us have the option of using AK's -- make mine a M4



I second that.

Cheers,

Wes


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## SgtWalsh

m16 a4 is my weapon of choice, still jams a bit, like someone said its all about keepin your weapon as clean as possible.  But if it came down to it, id sling my m16 and grab an ak. Haha


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## TCBF

Are you getting Failure To Feed, or Failure to Eject?

Tom


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## KevinB

Its also about having good mags...


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## TCBF

"Its also about having good mags... " -KevinB

- Are you insinuating that stock "Adventure Line" and "OKay Industries" mags are problematic?

 ;D

I know, I know, All mags are equal, but mags that ALWAYS work are more equal than others.  (w/aplgies to Geo. Orwell).

I remember our plastic mags in the eighties.  I was coaching the Boeselager Team in readiness for the shooting stand, and I had each guy stick a cream target patch on each mag with his name and mag number on it.  Every stoppage got a squirrel count.  When it hit five, the shooter handed me the mag and I curb stomped it on the spot.  You should have seen the OC's eyes.

Me:  "You wouldn't want to go into combat with that one, did you sir?"

Tom


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## KevinB

Tom,  I still do that routine...  C7/8 mags or pistol  - 5 issues and the sledge hammer "fixes" it.

  In a fit of rage I threw a mag off the range - and into a Hummer widow...  It was 1999 and the US troops ran after it like it was gold (a preban mag to sell)


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## 1feral1

KevinB said:
			
		

> Its also about having good mags...



These HK mags are the best (from 28yrs expereince in these mags - 20's 30's, US, Old UK type, Thermold, Sterling steel ones in 30 and 40rd and French steel ones), and these HK mags are stock-standard to to the British. Even the US Army teams were using them this year in their M16A4s. The US mags issued were marked 'for government and law enforcement only'. The UK mags just said HK on the bottom.

Cold beers,

Wes


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## KevinB

The new US HK mags dont say it -- those where ones from the ban...

  My big issue with the Hk mag is its damn weight.  Talking to some of the CAG guys they have been copyign me (yeah right) using the Labelle Teflons and the MAGPUL enhanced followers as a method to keep weight down yet still have a 100% mag for the guns (Hk416's...)

 I had a few of the Stirling 40rders -- but they where way to big for mag pouches and made shooting in the prone more a semi kneeling event  -- I got $100 USD each during the ban when I sold them...


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## TCBF

We picked up US 30s and 20s all over Germany.  When I cleared out of Lahr in 92, I gave away about twenty 20 rd M16 mags.  This was pre-ban.  Had I kept them and sold them during the ban, I would now be writing you from Hawaii.

Now that the ban is over, I keep waiting for the US population to go into a steep decline due to a massive GSW epidemic, but I guess all of those Lefty pundits can't be right all the time.

Tom


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## KevinB

Yeah - who would have thought that eh..  ;D

  I made a big mistake and kept a few pre ban AR's in Fla (my parents) thinking the price would go up...  Ban ended and I have 2 Colt AR15A2 Gov't that are worth less than when I bought them - but at least the ban is over.


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## 1feral1

Ya Kevin, they are heavy, but if its quality and reliability, they got the old type beat.

Cheers,

Wes


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## KevinB

Wes,

When I get back I will send you some Labelle Teflons with Magpul followers -- IMHO they have the Hk mag beat...


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## 1feral1

Thanks mate, along with a CAN-2000 bayonet perhaps ;D

Cheers,

Wes


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## KevinB

I'll see if I can trade for one off one of the TF1-06 guys...

     Do the have mag laws in Aus -- like if I went there for a holiday and brought you some stuff.


Edit: and they said that the USMC gusy could hijack a thread... They ain't got nothing on us  ;D


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## Slim

TCBF said:
			
		

> We picked up US 30s and 20s all over Germany.   When I cleared out of Lahr in 92, I gave away about twenty 20 rd M16 mags.   This was pre-ban.   Had I kept them and sold them during the ban, I would now be writing you from Hawaii.
> 
> Now that the ban is over, I keep waiting for the US population to go into a steep decline due to a massive GSW epidemic, but I guess all of those Lefty pundits can't be right all the time.
> 
> Tom



All their hot air is good for is inflating baloons...And what goes up must come down.

Hope I'm there to see it!

Slim


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