# CDN Army Ceremonial Swords



## MAJOR_Baker (20 Apr 2004)

I was wondering, is there a historical basis for a member of the CDN Army to carry a sword in a ceremonial function?  I have never seen it done, am I missing something?


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## Padraig OCinnead (20 Apr 2004)

If you are asking do CF officers carry swords onto parade, yes they do. I believe this is the only time you‘ll see them carry or wear it.

The historical basis would be tradition I believe.


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## willy (20 Apr 2004)

A-AD-201-000/AG-000 - Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial.  This document will contain specific information pertaining to this topic.  That said, I can‘t find a copy of it online at the moment, though it does exist in e-format.  If someone else has a link to an online copy (not a DIN copy), please post it here.

Generally though, Officers will carry swords on ceremonial occasions such as unit parades.  Non commissioned members do not carry swords.  I believe this came down from the British practice of doing the same.


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## stukirkpatrick (20 Apr 2004)

However, high ranking NCMs carry pace sticks, right?  Or at least those in certain positions (ie, RSM, CSM)


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## Rick Goebel (20 Apr 2004)

Drum Majors and RSMs in the infantry wear swords when the officers do.  At least in the King‘s Own Calgary Regiment, the NCOs in the Guidon party carry swords rather than rifles.  This may be a general armoured thing.  As a note, the only time an infantry NCM actually DRAWS a sword on a parade is during a trooping of the colour.


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## xFusilier (20 Apr 2004)

Swords are only carried in No.1 Order of dress which includes white belts, gloves and medals.  Officers, IIRC only carry swords when the formed body of troops are armed.  Warrant officers (WO-CWO) may carry swords or sabres depending on the customs and traditions of their corps/regiment.  In the Infantry it is customary for the RSM to carry a sword (sheathed) along with a pace stick, in the Armoured Corps the escorts to the Guidon (WO‘s) will be armed with sabres.


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## CI Dumaran (28 Apr 2004)

Sorry A little off topic...

Does anyone know where one could purchase a CF sword/sabre?

I am planning on buying one for a proposed "Chief‘s/WOs Sword" for a cadet unit.

Thanks.


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## Eowyn (28 Apr 2004)

You might want to try Penny‘s in Thunder Bay.  Their website is www.pennys.ca.  If they don‘t have that, they might know where you can get them.  Also the PPCLI on-line kitshop has them listed.   http://kitshop.ppcli.com/


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## leopard11 (28 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by willy:
> [qb] A-AD-201-000/AG-000 - Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial.  This document will contain specific information pertaining to this topic.  That said, I can‘t find a copy of it online at the moment, though it does exist in e-format.  If someone else has a link to an online copy (not a DIN copy), please post it here.
> [/qb]


I have the manual on CD Rom, right here with me, unfortunately i am computer illiterate so i wouldnt have the first clue on how to post it up on the forum, if theres a way that i can do so, let me know and it shall be done, remembering that the file is extremely large and would require alot of space.


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## chrisf (28 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by xFusilier:
> [qb] Swords are only carried in No.1 Order of dress which includes white belts, gloves and medals. [/qb]


Is that a guideline or a regulation? As I‘ve seen officers carrying them on parade in Combats.


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## Ex-Dragoon (28 Apr 2004)

Do swords just go to RMC grads? S_BAker how do they do it in the US military do all offciers get a sword?


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## willy (28 Apr 2004)

m_a_r_c, there isn‘t a way you could post it here without taking up excessive system resources on  Mr. Bobbit‘s system.  There are online copies available, mostly on the DIN, but some on the internet too, I belive.  I‘m just lazy and didn‘t do an exhaustive search for it before.  If someone really wants it they‘ll find it.

Edit- looks like they did.  Check the thread of the same name.  Combat Medic gets a gold star.

Sig Op, unless it was just as part of a parade practice or something like that (and even then, technically) the officers you saw carrying swords in combats were wrong to do so.  That said, I‘ve seen it too, and it is happening at my unit more and more.  There are a lot of things done in combats these days (unit parades, quarter guards, etc) that were only done in DEU a few years ago.  The regulations haven‘t changed, it‘s still a no no.  However, I suspect that, in addition to the fact that we‘ve become a bit lazy, the fact that new troops now have to wait a while to get DEU is one of the factors here, as nobody would want to do a parade with only half the unit.  

Nonetheless, xFusilier is entirely correct, and whites aren‘t supposed to go with combats.


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## chrisf (28 Apr 2004)

Check your private messages.


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## ggranatstein (28 Apr 2004)

Swords can be purchased online at the RMC Kit Shop. It‘s a very good deal. Otherwise, you can get your from the ‘original‘ Commonwealth sword maker - Wilkinson‘s in London.

Their swords are absolutely beautiful and pricey.

I got mine from RMC. Let me know if you have any more questions - send me an email!


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## Ex-Dragoon (28 Apr 2004)

Do you have your own now or in the event of a parade do you have to sign one out from the armoury?


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Apr 2004)

Sherwood,
The really nice swords that are marked Toledo are from Spain (not Ohio). I was there a couple of years ago and they have some very beautiful stuff.


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## CI Dumaran (28 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Habitant:
> [qb] Swords can be purchased online at the RMC Kit Shop. It‘s a very good deal. Otherwise, you can get your from the ‘original‘ Commonwealth sword maker - Wilkinson‘s in London.
> 
> Their swords are absolutely beautiful and pricey.
> ...


Do you have a URL for the RMC kitshop? does it exist? I haven‘t seen one online.

Thanks!!!


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## Spr.Earl (28 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by recceguy:
> [qb] Sherwood,
> The really nice swords that are marked Toledo are from Spain (not Ohio). I was there a couple of years ago and they have some very beautiful stuff. [/qb]


All swords worne By Officers are all Wilkenson.
What was Damascus Steel?


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## Yes Man (29 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb]
> What was Damascus Steel?
> [/qb]


 http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/quest.htm  

Now a days it is a fancy acid etching which puts a cool effect on the sword.

Does it really matter who makes the swords though, they will never be used for anything but show.  If I had to pick what kind of sword I would want it would be a really high silicon content steel (stainless steel) so it would shine nice with minimal upkeep.  Though if it were to bump into something it would get a dent.


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## Spr.Earl (29 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Yes Man:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


Good on ya!!   
Have you read the whole article?


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Apr 2004)

Sherwood,
Thx. Didn‘t know they were there. May have to take a Saturday and drive over for a few hours.


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## Michael Dorosh (29 Apr 2004)

Sherwood, I know you‘re working hard at being a complete piece of s hit and all, but you were given several highly detailed answers to your questions, the least you might have done was offer a word of thanks instead of going on to talk about yourself some more.

But I guess that would only highlight the fact that you have "never seen it done before" despite the fact that swords are de rigeur for ceremonial functions in Canada.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Apr 2004)

Take it outside.


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## Yes Man (29 Apr 2004)

Have not read the whole article, but from what I have glanced at seems to be right.  I had a history teacher who was a major collector in historic weapons; he had everything from atlatls to maxim machine guns (brought them into class too).  I learned allot about swords and metallurgy from him.    

BTW do you take your swords home with you, or are they kept in the armory?


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## Spr.Earl (29 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by S_Baker:
> [qb] Recce Guy,
> 
> The swords I was talking about are made in Toledo OH.  See link
> ...


A Sabre is another weapon worn by the Cav. Officers
A sword is worn by Foot Soldiers.
A totally different design in weapon.
Same as the Cutless.

Sabres where designed to slash from upon a horse when in a charge against Foot where as a Cutlass which the Navy use was also was designed with in the same i.e. a quick attack
There is the differance between the sword,sabre and cutlass

P.S. STOP THE SLAGGING!!!    
If you can‘t answer with out be demeaning then F‘OFF     

We are all Brothers in Arms!!


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## Michael OLeary (29 Apr 2004)

Yes Man, 

Swords (or sabres for the Armour Corps officers) may either be property of the unit or acquired by individual purchase. Those owned by the unit may be kept at the unit or may be signed out to individuals for their use on ceremonial occasions. Personally acquired swords are kept by those individuals at home. Ceremonial swords are not treated as weapons for storage purposes.


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## CI Dumaran (29 Apr 2004)

Sorry to jump in... any one know where a CF sword/sabre could be purchsed in toronto? GTA?

Thanks, looking for one as a gift to a Chief.


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## CI Dumaran (30 Apr 2004)

anyone?


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## Michael OLeary (30 Apr 2004)

I don‘t know if anyone in Toronto stocks them. For the standard pattern for line infantry regiments you can try the Royal Canadian Regiment Kit Shop in London, Ontario.

  http://www.rcrmuseum.ca/html/kit_shop/  

It‘s on the Kit Shop price list for $860. And don‘t forget the sword knot for another $26. The sword belt, if required, is another $185.


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## CI Dumaran (30 Apr 2004)

WOW, Thanks a lot!

Your help is super appreciated.


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## Wm Scully (6 May 2004)

Concerning Canadian Forces Patterned swords and scabbards,  please give us a call or contact us at:

William Scully Ltd. (1877)
2090 Moreau
Montreal, Qc.
H1W2M3
ph:514 527-9333
f: 514 521-5942
sales@williamscully.ca

I can supply Officer swords for the Infantry, Air Force and Navy.  These are DND issued swords.

Very best,
Will Scully
VP


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## CI Dumaran (6 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Wm Scully:
> [qb] Concerning Canadian Forces Patterned swords and scabbards,  please give us a call or contact us at:
> 
> William Scully Ltd. (1877)
> ...


WOW even better!!!!


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## Servicepub (7 Sep 2004)

Another Toronto source for Infantry swords, Cavalry sabres and Highland Claymores is David Hiorth at Sgt Bilko Trading. No address available at the moment. He imports good quality German swords and supplies many to DND.


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## Matt_Fisher (7 Sep 2004)

And yet another source of military swords is through Wilkinson in the UK.
http://www.wilkinsonsword.com/uk_swords/army.html
Their website doesn't show their entire range of British/Commonwealth swords, but if you request a brochure they'll send you information on their entire line.  They're not cheap though, but if you're looking for something that you'd be proud to pass down as a family heirloom, these are the ones to get...

Upron promotion to Corporal and having the $1000US that I can spend I'd love to get myself their Marne Non-Commissioned Officer's Sword
http://www.wilkinsonsword.com/us_swords/usmarine.html#NCO


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## portcullisguy (8 Sep 2004)

When you purchase a Wilkinson sword, you purchase a piece of history.  The company has been around over 200 years, and has supplied swords to all three branches of the UK armed forces, as well as several Commonwealth armed services, and even the United States Marine Corps.

My uncle, a (now retired) Lieutenant Commander in the Royal Navy, on receiving his sword from the family collection, shortly after graduating BRNC Dartmouth in 1967, took his Naval pattern Wilkinson sword back to the manufacturer for restoration.  They were extremely exciting to have this sword back and be given the opportunity to restore it to its original condition.  They checked their records carefully and confirmed that this sword had originally been given to my great-grandfather in the 1880s, who arose through the naval ranks to become a Paymaster-Captain (a rank that no longer exists).  It was dutifully restored and my uncle carried it on ceremonial occasions throughout his naval career.

Sadly, I never joined the Royal Navy, or the CF navy, and so I doubt the sword will ever be given to me during my uncle's lifetime.

Wilkinson sword does make Canadian Forces pattern swords, and although they are very expensive, as I said, you are buying a long lasting piece of history. They service everything they sell and are probably the leading experts in the Commonwealth at swordmaking.


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## Sailing Instructor (9 Sep 2004)

Will I, as a MARS officer, ever be issued/awarded a sword by the CF?  Or is this something one has to buy now that they are not official weapons anymore?  I was under the impression that (at least RMC) officer-cadets got a sword upon commissioning.


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## George Wallace (9 Sep 2004)

They get a sword to *carry*  on Grad Parade if they are Top Students.   They may be awarded a Sword (note: trophy for Top Student or some other significant accomplishment), but they do not get to keep it.

The CF has an inventory of Swords in various "Stores Locations" which are issued out by the Supply people for use on Parades and then retrieved.

Swords are not given by the CF, to any CF members to keep.   A Unit may purchase a sword and present it as a gift to someone with money that the members of that Unit have collected.   No Public money is spent to present 'you' your own personal sword.

If you are a member of a Unit, you may find that for some special occasion they may make a plan to purchase swords.   My Regiment celebrated its' centennial in 1983 in Germany and we were allowed to purchase one of the "Centennial Swords" for DM 500.   They also celebrated the 100th anniversary of the Boer War with a similar purchase.   One of those swords will range in the price of $500 today.

GW


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## dudeman123 (31 Oct 2004)

Hey every1.
    I know that there are a few people out there lookin to buy swords. Now there is one guy in st. cathrines On. who sells military accutraments and does sell Canadian Forces swords. Now any of you people out there owning a wilikinson sword knows how expensive they are. Outragious...very nice swords though; however, some people dont wanna dish out that money and there is an alternitive apparantly there is another company selling Canadian Forces swords i dont however know the makers name but will find out and post it, as for the dealer in St.Cathrines he is, Coghlin and Upton Military Accutrements.

email. admin@coghlinandupton.com
and website at. www.coghlinandupton.com

Great place to check out if you live by the store. I have been there quite a few times and I've always been impressed with the service. .

cheers.


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## dudeman123 (4 Nov 2004)

Hello again.
    It seems the maker of the sword is Coghlin and Upton and they have swords in stalk. An infatry sword is $400 rather then the $700+ you'd spend on a wilkinson and they are the exact quality. Also wilkinson moved its sword making facility to India and although they are an English company there swords are in no way better manufactued then Coghlin and Upton. As well Coghlin and Uptons military swords contain "the Star of Damascus" that sorta Star of David star with a bronze disc in the center mark on it, which is a proof mark of distiction found on swords of high quality workmanship. Coghlin and Upton also are DND suppliers so it is 100% ragulation and recognized as a Canadian Forces sword not a cheap replica of something found on a movie somewere in Hollywood. Thats just a little bit of comparing I did myself on the two companies. I thought I'd open up a few more doors for those of you who are about to invest in a sword for your uniform. Best of luck to all of you out there buying a sword.

Cheers


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## pbi (4 Nov 2004)

quote]All swords worne By Officers are all Wilkenson.

Actually, for may years we bought Solingen from Germany: i know a number of officers who bought them.

On the issue of WOs/NCOs carrying swords, I know that in the RRegt C when I was Pioneer Sgt I carried a British Pioneer Sword drawn on parade when we were in our 1885 ceremonial dress (short, thick blade, sawteeth, heavy knuckle guard rather than a full basket.) I believe the Pioneer Sgt in the QOR0fC also carried a sword on parade. Our Drum Major, RSM and DSM also wore swords.

In some units I believe All Sgts Maj carry swords on parade, and in some units such as 2 RCR the Battalion DO wears (or wore...) a sword o n duty.

Cheers.


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