# Infra Red Cadpat Name Tapes?



## navymich (29 Dec 2007)

Got back to work to find this email from the CWO of the AF:



> Bonjour à tous,
> 
> This e-mail is to highlight a concern about some Name tapes for the CADPAT. Lately, xxxxxxx from the Air Div xxxxx found out that some Officers and Recruits at Canadian Forces Leaderships and Recruits School, in St-Jean, had some tapes made up from a civilian contractor somewhere in New-Brunswick. The danger with these name tapes is that they do not meet the Infra Red (IR) requirements and standards. The School CWO was contacted and this initiative will be stopped immediately.  The concern is that there are lots of them being used across the country and if these individuals are to be deployed, they will become a target for the enemies pretty fast. For their own personal protection, all personnel in possession of name tapes not obtained through our CF supply organisation, should destroy them immediately and order the appropriate one through normal channel.
> 
> Please ensure that this information is distributed to all your personnel, more critically to those that are about to deploy.



ArmyVern, can you verify/confirm this about our current issued nametapes?  I couldn't find anything else in a search about this.  And I'm going to assume that the "civilian contractor somewhere in NB" is CPGear?   Maybe Matt_Fisher has some input on that side of things?


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## TN2IC (29 Dec 2007)

airmich said:
			
		

> Got back to work to find this email from the CWO of the AF:
> 
> ArmyVern, can you verify/confirm this about our current issued nametapes?  I couldn't find anything else in a search about this.  And I'm going to assume that the "civilian contractor somewhere in NB" is CPGear?   Maybe Matt_Fisher has some input on that side of things?



Opps... work needed to be done I guess. I'm sure CP Gear doesn't mind the funds.


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## Good2Golf (29 Dec 2007)

Maybe if the AF had chosen to keep using the original name tapes (OG thread on CADPAT) instead of going to the funky blue/purple thread we'd be better off?

As well, hopefully the thermal imaging operator doesn't notice the large hot glowing blob (a.k.a. "head") about 20cm above the offending nametags!  :


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## NL_engineer (29 Dec 2007)

I can't make any sense out of some of his points  :

like not being IR being a danger on operations (not that it is not important, buy your name tag is covered up by body armor, and a Tac Vest of some kind)  Let alone the fact that you wear AR name tags with AR combats  :

I think it is just a uniformity issue being played as an operation safety issue


Just my 2 cents


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## danchapps (29 Dec 2007)

I think the problem is that some of the students have ordered their own name tapes prior to them being issued. From how I've read the email is that the issued tapes are OK, the purchased tapes not so much. I guess I'm glad I waited for my issued one instead of wasting my money.


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## aesop081 (29 Dec 2007)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> I think the problem is that some of the students have ordered their own name tapes prior to them being issued. From how I've read the email is that the issued tapes are OK, the purchased tapes not so much.



You got all that from that email ?

wow


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## COBRA-6 (29 Dec 2007)

I'm sure any enemy using NVGs/TIs will notice the multitude of IFF IR reflective flags, patches and strobes worn by our troops before they notice the small difference between the issued and non-issued CADPAT name tapes  :


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## Franko (29 Dec 2007)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> I'm sure any enemy using NVGs/TIs will notice the multitude of IFF IR reflective flags, patches and strobes worn by our troops before they notice the small difference between the issued and non-issued CADPAT name tapes  :



Not to mention the 25 - 70 ton killing machines they ride around in.         

Regards


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## armyvern (29 Dec 2007)

Very interesting indeed given that Base Clothing Stores actually use this supplier for nametapes needed for pers quickly due to op deployment with little to no notice because the contractor can't provide on deadlined time-frame.

If the AF CWO is putting this out -- there's probably something official at work on it. Although, I saw nothing to this effect on the Army side of the house before block leave started. 

Hopefully, if this is the policy going to be enacted ... the CoC actually addresses the problems with the supply from the official contractor -- in that they constantly take *months * to deliver nametapes (& this *has* been reported officialy), missing their deadlines, and that an "operational requirement" caveat gets built into that contract whereby the contractor would become obligated to provide on a "less than 30 days" (they rarely meet the 30 day option ...) option should operational requirements dictate.

Arid nametapes are the worst ... sometimes (actually often) we need them within a week, and the contractor can not meet that timeframe ergo we find ourselves going to the email reffed supplier. Clothing issue for op deployment is part of the DAG and is required to be signed off as completed for a green DAG status ... someone going to dag RED now because the CF contractor can't provide AR/IR nametapes in a week if required? 

If the above para seems silly to you -- as in "No one would ever DAG RED for NOT having AR nametapes" ... is it really any sillier than allowing their face to remain IR visible, but not their 3/4" X 7" nametape?

Nope, I haven't heard a thing about this. Interesting indeed.


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## armyvern (29 Dec 2007)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> I think the problem is that some of the students have ordered their own name tapes prior to them being issued. From how I've read the email is that the issued tapes are OK, the purchased tapes not so much. I guess I'm glad I waited for my issued one instead of wasting my money.



This is ironic. Seeing as how clothing stores, in certain circumstances, has placed orders through the very supplier reffed in the email to _issue_ to troops ... and not just this clothing stores either.

My solution? Perhaps next time, PWGSC actually needs to award the contract to a large enough supplier who can actually meet the demand AND the deadlines for our orders of nametapes.

(and it would help too if the AF stopped switching their nametapes every 2 years or so - thus bogging down the contractor with re-doing sets over and over again for every AF member in NATO - ... that's for you G2G!!!)   >


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## Armymedic (29 Dec 2007)

What would the IR properties of name tags be worthy of the AF attention? Would not the big honking aircraft (generators, heaters, tents etc) give them away as well?


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## Armymedic (29 Dec 2007)

Further, why are soldiers who care about being detected by IR wearing nametages to begin with?


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## DirtyDog (29 Dec 2007)

Half the guys in my company are wearing CP name tapes.  If we waited on the supply system, we wouldn't have ANY.  Going on a year and a couple months and I still haven't been issued a name tape even though it's been brought up with the CoC and CQ numerous times (and I don't think it's their fault either).


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## DirtyDog (29 Dec 2007)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> I guess I'm glad I waited for my issued one instead of wasting my money.


Yeah, because $5 is a huge waste.  I know I'd rather walk around with a blank velcro patch on my chest.


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## Good2Golf (29 Dec 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> .....(and it would help too if the AF stopped switching their nametapes every 2 years or so - thus bogging down the contractor with re-doing sets over and over again for every AF member in NATO - ... that's for you G2G!!!)   >



Quite! 

I'm going back to my original OD/CADPAT/Albatross nametags and tell the CCWO that I'm waiting for my new ones (the CAG - Canadian Average Green, a.k.a. purple thread on OD background) to come in.

*sigh*

G2G


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## RCR Grunt (29 Dec 2007)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> I think the problem is that some of the students have ordered their own name tapes prior to them being issued. From how I've read the email is that the issued tapes are OK, the purchased tapes not so much. I guess I'm glad I waited for my issued one instead of wasting my money.



I'm going to jump on the pile ... No student in CFLRS is allowed to order and wear their own name tapes unless authorized to do so by their platoon staff.  Only after graduating are students allowed to wear a name tape.  If a student is moved from one platoon with name tapes to one without, then that student will remove said name tape and conform with the new platoon's standard.  A special circumstance for this occurring could be say, a platoon is tasked with being an honor guard in a parade for, oh I don't know, the 90th anniversary of the battle of Paschendale.  That platoon would be ordered name tapes, and due to time restrictions, be ordered from the supplier in New Brunswick previously mentioned.  Thats a lot of minor detail I threw in there, and thats because it happened to my spouse.  Therefore, the unlikeliness of this occurring is not debatable.

 The supplier does not matter. If detection by IR means is an issue, your name tape along with any other distinguishing articles would be removed before leaving the wire, and you most likely are not in the AF.  I have yet to see Recce platoon swing by the cooks tent or battalion orderly room to grab an air force guy to tag along on a point recce.

This is a case of "I'm the boss" syndrome.  You'd think with a war on and the air force so busy these days the last thing on anyones mind would be uniformity of name tapes.


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## TN2IC (29 Dec 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If the AF CWO is putting this out -- there's probably something official at work on it. Although, I saw nothing to this effect on the Army side of the house before block leave started.




An Air Force CWO worried about the 3D's...Now  I heard it all. Time to check myself into the nut house. Hopfully my room is empty.  ;D


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## armyvern (29 Dec 2007)

RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> I'm going to jump on the pile ... No student in CFLRS is allowed to order and wear their own name tapes unless authorized to do so by their platoon staff.  Only after graduating are students allowed to wear a name tape.  If a student is moved from one platoon with name tapes to one without, then that student will remove said name tape and conform with the new platoon's standard.  A special circumstance for this occurring could be say, a platoon is tasked with being an honor guard in a parade for, oh I don't know, the 90th anniversary of the battle of Paschendale.  That platoon would be ordered name tapes, and due to time restrictions, be ordered from the supplier in New Brunswick previously mentioned.  Thats a lot of minor detail I threw in there, and thats because it happened to my spouse.  Therefore, the unlikeliness of this occurring is not debatable.
> 
> The supplier does not matter. If detection by IR means is an issue, your name tape along with any other distinguishing articles would be removed before leaving the wire, and you most likely are not in the AF.  I have yet to see Recce platoon swing by the cooks tent or battalion orderly room to grab an air force guy to tag along on a point recce.
> 
> This is a case of "I'm the boss" syndrome.  You'd think with a war on and the air force so busy these days the last thing on anyones mind would be uniformity of name tapes.



Much like when I went through basic, we were a few weeks without nametags on our ODs ... NORMAL.

As to the AF guys going outside the wire and your comments that the AF doesn't do it ...

Word up -- many purple trades people go outside those wires on convoys/DPs ... and a great many of them wear the blue DEU, this means that the nametapes of their cadpat are the AF version of _bluey-gawd-awful-purple_ in colour. Careful that you don't infer that blue types don't exit the confines of the Camps -- that's just a plain old wrong falacy to begin with.

That being said, those blue types and black types in-theatre would be wearing cadpat AR, so when they went outside the wire where IR does become a distinct issue -- wearing the blue-threaded AF TW nametapes would be moot they'd be in cadpat AR nametapes if they were in any at all. And it's those very cadpat AR nametapes that CSGs usually end up purchsing from the NB supplier due to the contractors inabaility to meet CF demand and timelines for deploying personnel.

For Dirty Dog:

Nametapes aren't ordered on an individual basis (as other threads here discuss) as there is a contractual requirement to place a "minimum order" (another little flaw in the contract that precludes clothing ordering from the contracted supplier for a member who is last-minute deploying on ops STAT). The normal process is for a Unit Nominal roll to be submitted by the RQ Shop (IF the Unit has an RQ) or by the Unit OR (if the Unit does NOT have an RQ shop) to clothing stores. CSG then uses that nominal roll to place the order.

I'm assuming that your order was placed via your RQ, in which case ... ask them to confirm that they did indeed submit a nominal roll to clothing stores (the nominal roll is required to be submitted via electronic means -- so the RQ should have a record of it) ... When they confirm that they have submitted the nominal roll ... have them resend it to CSG with a "CC" to the clothing supervisor asking where the hell their order is after so long.

If it was sent to CSG -- then CSG can get off their butts and figure out where the order is, but even with the supplier missing deadlines -- somethings wrong in your sit. It doesn't take them that long ... and I suggest to you now that either the Unit Nom Roll was never sent (thus the order never placed) OR Sup lost the order and never submitted it to the Supplier. I DO NOT think this is the fault of the Supplier in any case, as there are already built in procedures in place to track orders from contractors and to hasten them when they don't show up on time ... so that would have been done long ago had the nametags for your Unit actually been ordered.

Don't know where the foul-up is in this case, but I can tell you this much -- *even* an RQ should have resubmitted the order (IF it was placed in the first place) after this amount of time and begun querying clothing for some answers by now.


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## danchapps (29 Dec 2007)

RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> I'm going to jump on the pile ... No student in CFLRS is allowed to order and wear their own name tapes unless authorized to do so by their platoon staff.



I know, maybe I should have more coffee before I post next time. Maybe my lack of caffeine caused a less than understandable post. With that being said, being allowed to order and doing it anyway are two different things. I know of some folks that had tapes ordered before the platoon was actually issued them. In fact, we received our issued tapes before our dog tags and ID cards. Anyway, it's none of my business as to why they don't want the unissued tags in use, and I could care less about them. As for the $5, wouldn't care about that either. Believe me, I've wasted much more cash on less important things than a name tape. As for the wearing of the tapes, nobody in my platoon wears them. We get the good old white print outs. I believe there was an order from the Commandant stating that no student was allowed to wear them, again, unless it was for: 





			
				RCR Grunt said:
			
		

> A special circumstance for this occurring could be say, a platoon is tasked with being an honor guard in a parade for, oh I don't know, the 90th anniversary of the battle of Paschendale.


At least that was how our staff explained it to those that wanted to wear the CADPAT tapes. 

I didn't expect everyone to jump on my back for me making a minor observation. I know I'm young, I know I'm new, but I don't think making me the tackle dummy for it was necessary. Thanks.


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## Good2Golf (29 Dec 2007)

Chapeski, don't take it too personally.  This whole issue, as you can see, brings many of us to banging our heads against a brick wall because that's less painful than thinking that some people actually don't have anything better to do with their time than worrying about things that, in the end, aren't worthy enough to worry about.  Many of us feel that there are more pressing issues to address in CF operations today than the fact that some name tapes that people may be procuring on their own, while visibly compliant with the prescribed standard may not have the same IR-suppressive properties that our LWCC (light-weight combat clothing) has until the 2nd or 3rd time you thrown them into the washing machine...don't sweat it.

G2G


_*edit for grammar*_


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## armyvern (29 Dec 2007)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Chapeski, don't take it too personally.  This whole issue, as you can see, brings many of us to banging our heads against a brick wall because that's less painful than thinking that some people actually don't have anything better to do with their time than worrying about things that, in the end, aren't worthy enough to worrying about.  Many of us feel that there are more pressing issues to address in CF operations today than the fact that some name tapes that people may be procuring on their own, while visibly compliant with the prescribed standard may not have the same IR-suppressive properties that our LWCC (light-weight combat clothing) has until the 2nd or 3rd time you thrown them into the washing machine...don't sweat it.
> 
> G2G



I'll second G2G's thoughts Chapeski --

Especially given that those purchased non-IR nametapes wouldn't shouldn't even been WORN outside the wire where IR sensitivity is applicable, which is THE concern mentioned in the email.

As for uniformity -- other than non-IR, they are virtually identical to the contractor supplied nametapes (and I've handled a great many of them -- official & non-official) -- uniformity is moot.


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## danchapps (29 Dec 2007)

Yeah, I just felt a bit like the goat on this one. I know the banging head syndrome from my previous career, and see both sides. Next time I'll have the java first before posting, it'll save us all a bit of thinking. Speaking of which, I'm going to grab one now.


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## MP 811 (29 Dec 2007)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Going on a year and a couple months and I still haven't been issued a name tape even though it's been brought up with the CoC and CQ numerous times (and I don't think it's their fault either).



I got ya beat brother.......2 and a half years now!.....Ive gotten to the point where I wear a different name every day.  Sooner or later someone's going to get wrapped around the axle on this one!


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## NL_engineer (29 Dec 2007)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That being said, those blue types and black types in-theatre would be wearing cadpat AR, so when they went outside the wire where IR does become a distinct issue -- wearing the blue-threaded AF TW nametapes would be moot they'd be in cadpat AR nametapes



It is still covered up when they are outside the wire (by FPV and/or the TV) so this CWO's point is either outdated, or an excuse to boycott said supplier.


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## 1feral1 (29 Dec 2007)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> ......this CWO's point is either outdated, or an excuse to boycott said supplier.



Personally, I think he is just being an idiot.

Cheers,


Wes


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## armyvern (29 Dec 2007)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> It is still covered up when they are outside the wire (by FPV and/or the TV) so this CWO's point is either outdated, or an excuse to boycott said supplier.



My entire quote for you ... read it again.



> That being said, those blue types and black types in-theatre would be wearing cadpat AR, so when they went outside the wire where IR does become a distinct issue -- wearing the blue-threaded AF TW nametapes would be moot they'd be in cadpat AR nametapes *if they were in any at all. *



When are you going to tell me something that I don't know?

It's also a wee bit early to be calling the AF CCWO on this -- the email was sent after Army block leave had begun, so it's entirely possible that he is just passing on new CF direction -- which I said previously that I would either confirm OR deny once I got back to work.

It's too early in the game to be making a personal call on a CF CCWO don't you think or an insinuation that he is outdated or 'boycotting' a supplier? I'd be very careful regarding making this a personal attack -- given that ALL the facts of this email aren't yet known ... especially given that you indicate that you wear a CF uniform in your profile.    Just an experienced _hint _ for you ... but the CF CCWO for the AF ... is still a member of the CF ... and is well aware of how to contact the Army to deal with disciplinary matters should he see reason to.


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## Meridian (29 Dec 2007)

Curious:

- How important is it for troops to have nametags beyond the wire?   I ask because I really don't know.   ArmyVern mentioned it affected DAG status.

- How complicated would it be for the Forces to say, buy a few special stitching machines?  Would the cost not be less than outsourcing?


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## aesop081 (29 Dec 2007)

Meridian said:
			
		

> - How important is it for troops to have nametags beyond the wire?   I ask because I really don't know.   ArmyVern mentioned it affected DAG status.



For god's sake, go back and read her last few posts. I dont think she could lay it out any more simple.


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## Meridian (29 Dec 2007)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> For god's sake, go back and read her last few posts. I dont think she could lay it out any more simple.




I'm not sure what you are referring to?  I don't see anywhere where ArmyVern discusses the need to be able to read someone's name on their uniform outside the wire. I do see where she discusses the different types of nametapes and various uniformity and IR issues....


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## armyvern (29 Dec 2007)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Curious:
> 
> - How important is it for troops to have nametags beyond the wire?   I ask because I really don't know.   ArmyVern mentioned it affected DAG status.
> 
> - How complicated would it be for the Forces to say, buy a few special stitching machines?  Would the cost not be less than outsourcing?



Part of the DAG requirement is that:

"Pers have been issued all entitled deployment kit IAW Scale."

Green DAG = Yes
Yellow = Awaiting kit
Red = No

Part of the scale for this particular Op is "3 X AR nametapes."

My point was, as the contractor can NOT deliver on a priority basis this item, but it IS a listed item on the scale -- it'd be very interesting indeed to see whether this would result in a switch of DAG status.

NOT having to dag someone "yellow" (as opposed to green) for deployment is exactly the reason that Clothing Stores HAS to resort to ordering those very AR nametags from the NB supplier. How ironic that is.

My point was, that given the *CF* *policy* is that NO nametags are to be worn outside the wire (where that IR factor IS important) ... the concerns outlined in the email regarding them NOT being IR --- is moot. People should NOT be wearing them outside anyway, thus concern about them NOT being IR is already addressed via the already existant *CF policy*.

That's what I think is silly.


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## Meridian (29 Dec 2007)

Gotcha, thanks AV.


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## aesop081 (29 Dec 2007)

Meridian said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you are referring to?



Are you clear now ?

Thanks Vern


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Dec 2007)

Things have been clarified as much as they can be until people go back to work and dig a bit. Until then, so there's no speculation, concerning motive or otherwise, we'll lock it up. That way no one steps out of bounds and gets stepped on.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## McG (29 Dec 2007)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> As well, hopefully the thermal imaging operator doesn't notice the large hot glowing blob (a.k.a. "head") about 20cm above the offending nametags!  :


The name tags work in near IR spectrum.  Therefore, while useless against thermal viewers, they will help against the guy with NVG, MNVG & II.  However, ...





			
				COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> I'm sure any enemy using NVGs/TIs will notice the multitude of IFF IR reflective flags, patches and strobes worn by our troops before they notice the small difference between the issued and non-issued CADPAT name tapes.


and





			
				St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> Further, why are soldiers who care about being detected by IR wearing nametages to begin with?


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## armyvern (8 Feb 2008)

Hmmmm, it's unlocked; and, post inbound from Matt Fisher ...


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## Matt_Fisher (8 Feb 2008)

Thanks Vern!

CP Gear manufacturers our nametapes on DND specified IR compliant CADPAT material, as per DSSPM pattern 600-02, 709-00, and 710-00.  If anybody has any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Cheers,

Matt


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