# Which of these airbases is the old CFB Lahr?



## Colin Parkinson (9 Nov 2008)

Which of these airbases is the old CFB Lahr?



http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&a...mp;t=h&z=13


I think this was CFB Lahar which had a runway and some hard shelters where they kept CF-105 when I was there in 84

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&a...mp;t=h&z=14


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## aesop081 (9 Nov 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> where they kept CF-105 when I was there in 84



I realy doubt that..........


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## GUNS (9 Nov 2008)

Please verify your grid reference. :warstory:


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Nov 2008)

According to wikipedia (take it for what its worth) CFB Lahr is now know as the Black Forest Airport.

Map of the airfield is here


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## GUNS (9 Nov 2008)

Bang on, Sapper.


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## cavalryman (9 Nov 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Which of these airbases is the old CFB Lahr?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For some reason, your map refs show Winnipeg, which is a far distance from Lahr.  Check your grid.


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Nov 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Which of these airbases is the old CFB Lahr?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You do realize that the CF-105 is the Avro Arrow.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Nov 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I think this was CFB Lahar which had a runway and some hard shelters where they kept CF-105 when I was there in 84



CF-105??  You must mean the CF-104 Starfighter aka The Widowmaker.  The CF-105 was the Arrow.

I thought the Army (4 CMBG) was in Lahr in 1984 with the Air Force at Baden Solingen, but the infrastructure was likely still there in Lahr?


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Nov 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> CF-105??  You must mean the CF-104 Starfighter aka The Widowmaker.  The CF-105 was the Arrow.



Do I want to know why they where nicknamed the Widowmaker  ???


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Nov 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Do I want to know why they where nicknamed the Widowmaker  ???



2nd paragraph on the link I provided  8)


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Nov 2008)

D'Oh! missed that one.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Nov 2008)

I don't know the exact Stats, but according to Wiki (I know, its Wiki but its all I could find quickly):

Operational history

The CF-104 entered Canadian service in March 1962. Originally designed as a supersonic interceptor aircraft, it was used primarily for low level strike and reconnaissance by the RCAF. CF-104 squadrons were stationed in Europe as part of Canada's NATO commitment. Up to 1971, this included a nuclear strike role that would see Canadian aircraft armed with US Nuclear Weapons in the event of a conflict with Warsaw Pact forces.

Over the course of the aircraft's lifespan in service, some 110 were lost to accidents, earning the CF-104 the nickname of "Widowmaker" or "Lawn Dart" in the air force.

The CF-104 was replaced by the CF-18 Hornet and retired from service by the Canadian Forces in 1987. Most of the remaining aircraft were sold to Turkey.


I'd like to confirm those numbers by a more official source.


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## Old Sweat (9 Nov 2008)

I was in Europe for part of this period. I doubt we had 110 operational CF104s and certainly not that many in Europe. At this stage there were three wings in the Air Division in Europe. Say we had three squadrons per wing with twelve aircraft per squadron, that totals 108 aircraft. The data fails the smell test, even if the number of airframes was higher. The term 'Widow Maker' was used by the Germans who had a serious problem with crashes. 

Now, this is second hand stuff from a pongo. Prove me incorrect, not only in the number of aircraft, but in the number of Canadian crashes.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Nov 2008)

I don't think the # of aircraft lost was only Canadian ones, but the total number lost from all countries.


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## geo (9 Nov 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Do I want to know why they where nicknamed the Widowmaker  ???


the CF104 Starfighter were the Widow makers
The CF5s were Freedom fighters


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Nov 2008)

Sorry I did mean the Cf 104's  :-[

Thanks for the link Sapper

But i can't figure why the other links went to Winnipeg???

here they are again

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Lahr,+bavaria,+Germany&sll=47.74902,7.720299&sspn=0.168746,0.307617&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=47.893212,7.633781&spn=0.086901,0.153809&z=13&iwloc=addr

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Gutenberg+Oberostendorf,+Ostallg%C3%A4u,+Bavaria,+Germany&sll=47.899887,7.619362&sspn=0.084128,0.153809&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FR-s2wIdvH6jAA&t=h&ll=47.856597,10.629015&spn=0.043481,0.076904&z=14&g=Gutenberg+Oberostendorf,+Ostallg%C3%A4u,+Bavaria,+Germany&iwloc=addr


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## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Nov 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> But i can't figure why the link went to Winnipeg???



Some long lost nuclear cold war sonar technology stuffed away in a damp Winnipeg Airport storage area that someone forgot to shut off.....


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Nov 2008)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Some long lost nuclear cold war sonar technology stuffed away in a damp Winnipeg Airport storage area that someone forgot to shut off.....




Funny you should mention that, I was just at our CPC Volunteer party and one of the guys used to guard the Nukes at Comox.


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## Danjanou (13 Nov 2008)

I hope there's agood reason for Colin getting Winnipeg and Lahr's grid references mixed up, he being a gunner and all 

Most of 4CMBG were at Lahr, but one Bn (3RCR and later 2 PPCLI) was up the road at Baden with the widow makers ( noisy buggers 8))


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## geo (14 Nov 2008)

Heh....

Ubique to the Engineers = Everywhere
Ubique to the Gunners = All over the place >

CHIMO!
:warstory:


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Nov 2008)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Most of 4CMBG were at Lahr, but one Bn (3RCR and later 2 PPCLI) was up the road at Baden with the widow makers ( noisy buggers 8))



That was 3 Mech Cdo when I was there in the early 70's


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## Niteshade (14 Nov 2008)

Scary how similar in design both of these places are:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=48.36925,7.827722&spn=0.03,0.03&q=48.36925,7.827722
and
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Lahr,+bavaria,+Germany&sll=47.74902,7.720299&sspn=0.168746,0.307617&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=47.893212,7.633781&spn=0.086901,0.153809&z=13&iwloc=addr

Well then again... maybe not. They aren't all that far away from each other.

Nites


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## Danjanou (14 Nov 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> That was 3 Mech Cdo when I was there in the early 70's



Yeah we all know you're an even older fart than Colin and I. Now go back to conducting halt parades on your Ferret. 8)


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Nov 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Heh....
> 
> Ubique to the Engineers = Everywhere
> Ubique to the Gunners = All over the place >
> ...



There is my Friday, end of the week chuckle I was in need of!   8)


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## Rodahn (14 Nov 2008)

And every Sapper that you ever meet will say the same thing....  ;D


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## Danjanou (14 Nov 2008)

Rodahn said:
			
		

> And every Sapper that you ever meet will say the same thing....  ;D



.....over and over and over again ad nauseum. 8)


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Nov 2008)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Yeah we all know you're an even older fart than Colin and I. Now go back to conducting halt parades on your Ferret. 8)



Even older than George! That's one reason I went to Ottawa, so that I would have people like ERC and OS to hang around ;D


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## Danjanou (14 Nov 2008)

Yeah hanging around bars with them makes even me feel like a young puppy. Tours of the CWM with you and them are great, they point out all the errors in the Boer War and Riel Rebellion Displays. ;D


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## time expired (14 Nov 2008)

OLD SWEAT, I think you are correct as far as the number of
CF104s are concerned but the losses of percentages of aircraft
in service are comparable with the Luftwaffe,somewhere near
a quarter of the total were lost by both the RCAF and the Luftwaffe.
The Canadian pilots seemed more adept at making a Martin-Baker
exit as they had far fewer fatalities than the Germans.
Incidentally the NATO standard upgraded HAS were for the use
of flyover F14 squadron from Seymore-Johnson AFB, practiced
a couple of year in the early 80s,exercise Crested Cap I think it
was called.
                                 Regards


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## Old Sweat (14 Nov 2008)

TE

Thank you for that. Flying an aircraft designed as a high altitude interceptor low and fast is a risky business. Did the stats change after the air group converted to a ground support role?


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## time expired (14 Nov 2008)

OLD SWEAT,I am not sure the RCAF ever used it in the interceptor role
in Europe, as far as I remember as soon as the 104 replaced the Sabre
they went to the nuclear strike role and then sometime in the late 70s
to recce and ground attack.The aircraft was very unforgiving and flying
in these latter roles must have been a great challenge to the pilots,which
explains why the pilots who flew them claim they they were the greatest
thing since sliced bread.
Concerning my last,I of course meant F15s,and the HAS I was referring
to were those in Lahr. 
                                  Regards


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## Old Sweat (14 Nov 2008)

Time Expired

I am sure the RCAF never used the CF104 as an interceptor; however that is what it was originally designed to do. As I recall from the sixties there were a lot of airplanes flying real fast and real low in Germany. Our guys in the Air OP Troop used to develop permanent twitching neck trying to find the next German 104 after the lead passed just overhead, apparently without having seen the Canadian L19 chugging along at two digits of air speed.


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## time expired (14 Nov 2008)

OLD SWEAT,yes I remember it well,4 Fd,Wksp.Ft.Chambley 63-66.I even
got a fam.ride in one of your L.19s.The Brits. told the Germans they owned
the air below 20,000ft.and if they didn't like it they shouldn't have lost the
war.Here in the south every day was an airshow, but the really low flying
was over.Now it is like living in a demilitarized zone,all the bases in the area
are closed with the exception of the French at Colmar and I hear it will close 
next year.I miss the "sound of freedom".
                                            Regards


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## exspy (15 Nov 2008)

Colin,

To answer your original question, neither of the maps you provided was for the airfield formerly known as CFB Lahr.  You can see it here:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Lahr,+bavaria,+Germany&sll=47.74902,7.720299&sspn=0.168746,0.307617&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=47.893212,7.633781&spn=0.086901,0.153809&z=13&iwloc=addr

The map for the former CFB Baden-Soellingen is here:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Gutenberg+Oberostendorf,+Ostallg%C3%A4u,+Bavaria,+Germany&sll=47.899887,7.619362&sspn=0.084128,0.153809&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FR-s2wIdvH6jAA&t=h&ll=47.856597,10.629015&spn=0.043481,0.076904&z=14&g=Gutenberg+Oberostendorf,+Ostallg%C3%A4u,+Bavaria,+Germany&iwloc=addr

Note that the town to the north-east of the Baden-Soellingen airfield,even today, is called "Kleinkanada".

According to the book Starfighter (1991) by David Bashow the RCAF purchased 200 single-seat CF-104's and 38 dual-seat CF-104D's.  Delivery from Canadair began in 1961.  I couldn't find any details as to the final number of accidents involving the aircraft.  Hope this helps.

Dan.


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## Blackadder1916 (16 Nov 2008)

exspy said:
			
		

> Colin,
> 
> To answer your original question, neither of the maps you provided was for the airfield formerly known as CFB Lahr.  You can see it here:
> 
> http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Lahr,+bavaria,+Germany&sll=47.74902,7.720299&sspn=0.168746,0.307617&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=47.893212,7.633781&spn=0.086901,0.153809&z=13&iwloc=addr



No, you're wrong, it's not the old CFB Lahr.  The airfield in the link that you provided is located just south of Bad Kronzingen, a community not far (about 10-15 km SW) from Freiburg which is about a half hour (if you drive slow in a German frame of reference) south of Lahr.



> Note that the town to the north-east of the Baden-Soellingen airfield,even today, is called "Kleinkanada".



"Kleinkanada" used to be the PMQ patch.  If I remember correctly, when our mail was home delivered (if using a local German address and postal code) it was considered part of Hugelsheim.



			
				exspy said:
			
		

> The map for the former CFB Baden-Soellingen is here:
> 
> http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Gutenberg+Oberostendorf,+Ostallg%C3%A4u,+Bavaria,+Germany&sll=47.899887,7.619362&sspn=0.084128,0.153809&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FR-s2wIdvH6jAA&t=h&ll=47.856597,10.629015&spn=0.043481,0.076904&z=14&g=Gutenberg+Oberostendorf,+Ostallg%C3%A4u,+Bavaria,+Germany&iwloc=addr



This link also doesn't open an aerial view anywhere near Baden-Soellingen.  You may have found them but the links are incorrect.


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## time expired (16 Nov 2008)

EXSPY,That is definitely not Lahr airfield however I believe it is Bremgarten
the home of the Luftwaffe recce wing JG.52 equipped with RF4C Phantoms.
All three of these bases,Baden,Lahr,and Bremgarten,were built by the French
shortly after WW2.Baden was planned to be built right at the edge of the city,
where the Baden civil airstrip is now,there was such a protest from the citizens
of this fair city that the French military gave the German authorities 6 weeks to
find an alternative or the would start with their original plan.A few farmers were
stripped of their land and Baden Soellingen was born.
                                                   Regards


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## exspy (16 Nov 2008)

Guys,

You're right.  I think the same happened to me that happened to Colin.  When you go searching on Google maps the address doesn't change from the first search made.  In other words I started my two searches from the sites that Colin had provided.  When I found Lahr and Bad-Soellingen the addresses had not changed so I just inadvertently repeated the sites that Colin had provided.

Please try this one for Lahr:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Lahr+Germany&sll=48.037549,12.451522&sspn=0.006872,0.013819&g=Lahr,+bavaria,+Germany&ie=UTF8&ll=48.357846,7.848186&spn=0.054637,0.11055&t=h&z=13

And this one for Baden-Soellingen:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=kleinkanada+Germany&sll=48.037549,12.451522&sspn=0.006872,0.013819&g=Lahr,+bavaria,+Germany&ie=UTF8&ll=48.779836,8.075895&spn=0.054183,0.11055&t=h&z=13

I think it will work better this time.  I apologize for my previous error.

Dan.


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## Crimmsy (16 Nov 2008)

exspy said:
			
		

> According to the book Starfighter (1991) by David Bashow the RCAF purchased 200 single-seat CF-104's and 38 dual-seat CF-104D's.  Delivery from Canadair began in 1961.  I couldn't find any details as to the final number of accidents involving the aircraft.  Hope this helps.
> 
> Dan.



My copy of Starfighter is three provinces away in my parents' basement so I can't look it up, but I recall that it has an appendix that details the ultimate disposition of each airframe. That would probably be the most reliable source for totals. This website has a list of all ejections from 104's (and many other types of many nations) but I can't say how reliable it is. It lists eighty 104s ejected from in Canadian service. No data on it about crashes where the pilot rode it in.


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## Blackadder1916 (16 Nov 2008)

time expired said:
			
		

> . . .  however I believe it is Bremgarten the home of the Luftwaffe recce wing JG.52 equipped with RF4C Phantoms.



Yes, it is Bremgarten, but perhaps you should have said "former home" since it was also closed as a military air base in the early 1990s.  It is now a business park.  http://www.gewerbepark-breisgau.de/en/standort/index.htm


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## AndreaS. (4 Mar 2011)

Hello,

My name is Andrea  and I am working on a research project about the ghosts and hauntings at the CFB in Lahr/Germany.
From what I could see so far, there are quite a few people here who’ve been at some point stationed at that base.
I would be really grateful, if you could help me with my research by telling me about the stories you’ve heard, maybe you have even experienced something yourself what seemed to be of paranormal origin, things that you just can’t explain.
If you don’t want to publish these stories here, you can also send them to me per e-mail (andrea@tpf-baden.de) or personal message. I can assure you that no names will be mentioned and every bit of information will be dealt with confidentially.
Thank you,

Andrea


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## my72jeep (4 Mar 2011)

exspy said:
			
		

> Guys,
> 
> You're right.  I think the same happened to me that happened to Colin.  When you go searching on Google maps the address doesn't change from the first search made.  In other words I started my two searches from the sites that Colin had provided.  When I found Lahr and Bad-Soellingen the addresses had not changed so I just inadvertently repeated the sites that Colin had provided.
> 
> ...


 yes this one is lahr. I saw some of the old hunts that are still there


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## Spr.Earl (13 Mar 2011)

Bit of trivia,
Lahr had the longest run way in all of NATO that is why all did touch and goe's on Saturday's and Sunday's. :blotto: :'(


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## George Wallace (13 Mar 2011)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Bit of trivia,
> Lahr had the longest run way in all of NATO that is why all did touch and goe's on Saturday's and Sunday's. :blotto: :'(



Longer than Frankfurt am Main? .........    Or just less busy?


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## Blackadder1916 (13 Mar 2011)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Spr.Earl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ahh . . . the great Canadian inadequacy game . . . measuring parts to show that we're just as good as the bigger guy.  Well, as I've tried to convince many females of varying ages over the years, it's not just length that should be taken into account when judging if "size matters".

Yes, it was commonly said (mainly by Canadians) that Lahr had the longest runway in NATO Europe Germany Southwestern Germany.  At 3000m, it probably was "one" of the longest runways in Germany that was "open only to military aircraft".  Rhein-Main (until it closed) shared use of the 4000m runways with Frankfurt Airport.  Ramstein was probably the next busiest USAF airbase, especially for heavy lift aircraft; its runways were under 2500m.  Spangdahlem's runway is about the same length (and maybe a few metres longer) as Lahr's.  While length matters, it is not the only thing.

The "only" time that Lahr received C5 Galaxys was the evening of 18 April 1991 when C5s and C141s arrived to load vehicles and personnel of 4 Field Ambulance who were deploying to southeastern Turkey (and eventually into Iraq) in support of Kurdish refugee operations.  We loaded from one of the margs on the western side of the field; the apron in front of the AMU could not accommodate a C5.  While "a" C5 was on the ground loading, the runway was closed to all other traffic because its wingspan intruded into the runway space.  There was one nervous moment for the base commander (who had come over with his son to see the aircraft while we were loading) when the C5 pilot indicated that they were having some warning lights and didn't know if he would be able to take off until they were resolved.  The base commander was concerned that the airfield could be closed until a maintenance crew and parts came down from Ramstein, possibly incurring a several hours to full day shutdown of his airfield.  The C5 took off anyway and diverted to Ramstein for the repairs.  They could easily handle multiple C5s.


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