# Long rave about the army (or entire military)



## PTE_Lui (18 Dec 2001)

Talking to some of the guys at my unit, I have come to the following conclusion about the two branches of the military:

Reg force do the actual job proffesionally as a real full time job, whereas reservists do it part time.  Because Reg force do it as a full fledged career; you seldom see reg force guys having the same sorta outright zealous pride that reservists do, as it is the norm to them.  Reservists, doing it on a part time basis, however, temporarily escape from thier real, full times life into a unique, differant world.  That is the reason why alot of reservists seem to live up to the title of "weekend warrior" even myself at times  <img src="smile.gif" border="0" alt="" /> 

While the reservist, doesn‘t have the same sense of comfort and familiarity with military life as the reg force guy, s/he has the advantage of showing up for parade on Wendsay and Saterday fresh and relaxed after living a week of semi-relaxing civvy life, which is why it seems alot of reserves are "hard core"-like.  My belief is that reg force guys wouldn‘t be "hard core" in the same blatent sense as the reservist, because it would get redundant; seeing as they do the job virtually every day.

I used to think that any part of the Army was cool, and can you really blame me?  I was a kid, and still am.  That realization that i described above made me think about why I used to think the army was cool; 1) because of the guns and weapons 2) because of the militant attitude 3) because of the proud heritage that the army has through it‘s contribution in history.

That made me realize that the army in general isn‘t as noble and regal as I had thought before.  Not that I‘m cussing out the army, but all that it is is a job.  True, I like the job alot, even though my role is to train in part time, in my free time, it doesn‘t define my character and it certainly doesn‘t define me.

Especially after talking to some *nameless* privates in the reserves who are all gunhoe, going "kill kill kill; i‘m gonna join reg force; I‘m cool cause I‘m in the army (shudder, navy in some cases)" like i used to be, (and at times still can be like)  I can see why alot of reg force guys think the reserves are a joke.

My job as a reservist get‘s me the cash i need for drinking, school, and paintball, as well as offering me the oppertunity to do interesting militant things that I‘m proud of.  However, it definatly doesn‘t make me a military man, like I do want to be someday.

*a long rave written so i can not think about school for a while


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## JRMACDONALD (18 Dec 2001)

RELAX--paint ball ain‘t no where nearthe real thing!!! if you‘re just starting out , learn!!!
   <img src="mad.gif" border="0" alt="" />


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## Alfreda (18 Dec 2001)

It seems to me, you have a lot to learn.  I am not full time military, nor am I a reservist, however, I grew up on bases and my father was regular army.  This is what I have learned about todays army ( unfortunately )
Reserves - there is no discipline what so ever. It seems todays reserves have not got what it takes to be regular army.  Remember, the reserves of 20 to 30 years ago, still had regular army guys that had been demobilised after the war and had joined reserve.  Today, it seems, the reserves are treated like a hobby by its members.
Regs - there is discipline and a willingness to do the job.  The training and desire is there, just like a civvy job.  However, the finances are not, therefore limiting greatly, and increasing frustration of the soldier.
I realise this is  very simplified, but there is not the space, nor the time to elaborate.


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## Gunner (18 Dec 2001)

What a bunch of crap.

Pte Lui - You should be concentrating on school (especially spelling).  Once you mature abit you will have a better understanding of the difference between Regular and Reserve, because if your post is any indication, you don‘t know s*it.

Alfreda - If you‘ve never worn the uniform, you have very little knowledge or experience to add to any discussion on this board.  So before you open your mouth with additional drivel, sit back and read before you add your two cents.  I don‘t know what your father did, but if that‘s the attitude he instilled in his offspring I feel sorry for you.  Take the chip off your shoulder about the Reserves, they are not that bad.


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Dec 2001)

Thanks Gunner, 
Saved me the trouble.


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## PTE_Lui (18 Dec 2001)

1) In engineering; spelling is of nominal importance.  On the web, it‘s of even less importance to me, especially when it‘s late and i‘m tired  <img src="smile.gif" border="0" alt="" /> 

3) Paintball doesn‘t compare to the real thing, and I know it.  It‘s just a wacky, fun sport that let‘s me vent my stress by shooting people in a safe, semi-harmless fashion

3) I think i was being a bit to broad in my earlier, long statement.  I allude more to the folks like me; who are just making thier start in the reserves.  I know that there are reservists who have time in, motivation, experience, and training on par if not superior to reg force guys, but most of them are either gone out on taskings, or doing someting actually usefull.  In my wretched state, I don‘t seem to be doing much; learning TCCCS, maybe getting my 404‘s in a few weeks.  I‘m quite envious of my friends who are out on taskings with reg force; they bring back tales of good, wacky fun (in the most postive of ways) Myself, I find my uselessness quite depressing at times, even though I realize that being as new as I am, there‘s no way i could be useful.  It‘s a pretty crappy position, to be completly useless, almost disgraceful; then again everyone had to start of somewhere, didn‘t they? What‘s more, my uselessness does actually put a bad face on myself, my section, my troop, my unit, the sigs corps, hell, even the entire army.  I don‘t want to be a burden, I want to contribute; take my fair share of the crap, help out the guys who work thier butts off, but when I think about it, it just get‘s me down that I can‘t.  

Ah, whatever, exams are over, it was pay day 3 days ago, Christmas is coming up, I‘ve got drivers training on the LSVW in a week, and i‘m going paintballing every day until my birthday (boxing day); perhaps not all‘s lost, he he...


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## Deleted member 585 (18 Dec 2001)

A thought:  abandon tact in the delivery of admonishment only if you want an FNG to cradle your melon in his sights when your back is turned.  Recceguy & Gunner -- remind me of this when I let loose on one.

I never much respected a fellow reservist who treated his service like a hobby.  I also agree that to have a convincing perspective, it helps to have credentials - which civvies usually don‘t.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Dec 2001)

Yeah, 
I‘m having trouble figuring this guy‘s problem. If he doe‘snt like it, quit, and don‘t bug us. If he wants to play with the big boys, he‘s got to pay dues. If he‘s not happy with that, I‘ll send him the rope! Hey Lui,, be a man and live it! Learn the job, spend the time and earn the respect. This is not a sniv forum. Put the skate board and paint ball gun in the closet with the rest of your kiddie dreams, become a team member your buds can count on! I don‘t need to go on deployment and find the likes of you as member of the quick reaction force that has to pull me out of the excrement! Grow up and quit wasting our  time with your childish rants, I,m sure you didn‘t drink the full bottle of Mad Dog 20/20 (Lime Rickey flavour) last night, finish the bottle and go back to sleep!!    <img src="mad.gif" border="0" alt="" />


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## Disturbance (19 Dec 2001)

I dont know what engineering you are talking about but spelling is of pretty great importance. In my first year engineering I had about 3 classes entirely devoted to spelling and grammar and writing different letters,reports, whatever - and I still can‘t get it right.

And advice from a fellow FNG - ears open, mouth shut. ESPECIALLY on your ‘conclusions on the two branches of the military‘ unless you dont mind looking like an *** . I dont know your credentials but those are some pretty insane statements you made, I mean it doesnt even look like you have had any experience with the regs at all. I have not met many reg force pers, but the ones I have met have been as good a role model as I could imagine. And although they have been in the army for a long time they are still as ‘hard-core‘ as you can get.

This is a forum of discussion so you can post whatever the hell you want -god knows I have, just think about what you are saying first.


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## Mike Bobbitt (19 Dec 2001)

People are people. Bad soldiers don‘t get channelled into the Reserves any more than good ones are forced into the Regs.

Though many top soldiers decide to go full time and join the Reg Force, so do a lot of bad ones.

You can‘t say that one branch/trade is good or bad, it‘s made out of individuals who run the gamut, as we can clearly see in these forums.

The only thing we can do is our best, and do our part to keep our unit, branch, trade, army and country honourable.

Soldier on.


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## bossi (19 Dec 2001)

Well, I first saw this "thread" last night, and decided to "sleep on it" (nothing like a good night‘s sleep to refresh the grey cells).  However, I ended up dealing with a crying two-year-old at midnight, and then again at 0600 hrs ... (what a perfect intro to my comments, eh?)

Reg Force and Reserve:
I‘ve always said it‘s like hockey - some can skate and shoot well enough for the NHL, some can‘t.  Some have enough heart in the NHL, some don‘t.
And, some that can shoot and skate well enough don‘t have enough heart - while others end up in the NHL through sheer determination even though they can‘t really shoot or skate "with the big boys" ...
So what?
There are some excellent soldiers in both the Reg Force and the Reserves.  There are also some bad soldiers in both organisations.  The difference?
The Reg Force are fulltime, the Reserves parttime (and even that distinction become blurred when one starts talking about callouts ... or Regs who go back to school ... hmmm ...).

We know that sometimes injuries in the NHL cause "farm team players" to be called up to the big league - sometimes they play well, and earn a permanent spot on the roster, sometimes they only play until the injured player returns, sometimes they play horribly (after all, they‘re only human, just like us).  Nevertheless, they‘re all hockey players, just like Regs and reservists are all soldiers - a brotherhood of arms.

They all play the game because they love it - when they stop loving it, they should quit (otherwise, they‘re just going through the motions, denying ice time to somebody who deserves it more, and not really earning their pay cheque properly).

Basically that sums it up.

Now, turning our sights on this thread:  a bad solider derides others and fosters division; a good soldier encourages others to perform to the best of their ability and fosters unity of effort (actually the more accurate translation of "gung ho", but I digress ...).

I don‘t like bad soldiers.

Dileas Gu Brath.


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## Alfreda (19 Dec 2001)

#1  Sometimes someone who deals at arms length with something can see more clearly than those who are sitting right on top of it.
#2  You have no idea about my father.  He did not instill anything in me so do not comment 
#3  Just because I never donned a uniform, doesn‘t mean I‘m stupid.  It also doesn‘t mean I don‘t have first hand experience, either.


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## byuill (19 Dec 2001)

Before this degenerates any more into name calling, a few things need to be set straight.  First, when comparing regs and reserves, you‘re comparing apples and oranges to a certain extent. I‘ve been in the reserves for over a decade, with some full time callouts, including an UNPROFOR tour along the way.  In all these experiences, both the really good and horribly bad troops stick out in memory.  This applies across the board, including foreign units that I‘ve worked with as well.  I find people decide to go reg or reserve for much of the same reasons (the chance to do something different, weapons training, etc.) but have different reasons for choosing to go full or part time, and I don‘t think it‘s the NHL/farm team thing at all. 

People re-badge because they want a chance to do more of the type of training they were exposed to in the militia [with varying degrees of success], with career and family obligations being the reasons for staying part time.  I think that the "it‘s just a hobby" statement isn‘t realistic, and is mostly false bravado.  Most reservists take their training and time commitment seriously.  We aren‘t all bums, though we have more than our fair share.  Most of us work full time meaningful jobs [I‘m an electrical engineer] and then work more time at the armory.  With both jobs combined, I‘m averaging a 60-hour week, 100 when I go on exercise.  The regs have their time commitments too, especially when they have to bugger off in short notice for long periods of time.  As for field time, my unit has often spent as much time in the field as some of the regular force units do in the same training year.    

The other differences I‘ve observed are mostly concerned with the time factor.  The regs have more time to spend on training and maintenance, and can focus on advanced skills. Their problem, however, is the tendency to impose mechanized SOP‘s (infantryman speaking here) whether there are vehicles present or not. Their middle management also keeps shooting themselves in the foot by continuing to piss people and then wonder why they can‘t keep people in.   

As for the militia, our middle management stinks as well. In training, the reserves always seem to be running out of time.  There is a lot of leeway when comparing the quality and esprit de corps of units in the reserves, and that can reflect badly on all militiamen as a whole. I think the reserves should focus on short-duration, low maintenance tasks (raiding, recce, armored car tactics) and leave the long-duration, high maintenance stuff to the regs with augmentation where necessary.  The big mistake, and the leading reason for this pointless rivalry, is trying to have everyone be able to do everything whether or not the equipment and facilities are there or not.

That‘s my 2 cents, any comments?


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## Brad Sallows (19 Dec 2001)

Being full-time or part-time has no bearing on whether one can or should approach soldiering professionally.  Soldiering is a profession - full stop.  I suppose individuals may take that responsibility seriously or not.  The signal variable is the amount of time and opportunity to learn, practice, and gain experience.

I have never been "fresh and relaxed" on a parade night or Saturday after a full week of work and rush-hour traffic.

I have heard the "reserves have no discipline" refrain before.  What exactly does that mean?  Some reservists blow off parades and exercises.  Some regulars find ways to anchor themselves in HQ and base positions.

If anyone supposes the reserves today do not have what it takes to be regular army, I invite that person to compare the 2001 reservist with the 1938 reservist.  Then consider how reservists (and citizens) fared during 1939-1945.  Any questions?


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## ender (20 Dec 2001)

Well said Brad.

The Militia is not worth doing as a hobby.  It‘s not worth doing for the money.  I could make a lot more money for a lot less trouble working in a store.

Sometimes I really don‘t want to go to parade night, especially if I know we‘re doing something boring like fire safety or WHMIS.  And yes, on those nights,  I do somewhat think of it as a job.

It‘s hard to train for something that never happens.  A lot of times I feel the training that we are doing isn‘t relavent to anything.

I do believe that we as militia have a serious purpose, and that it is important to be as proffesional as possible.  Yes, you can have fun.  I‘ve made some of my best friends through the army.  But this is not a game.


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## John Nayduk (20 Dec 2001)

You said it Ender.  It‘s hard training for something that never happens.  It‘s harder still to answer young troopers who ask questions about our role in this new war.  With the reserve restructure going on and information, as far as I‘m concerned, not being very forthcoming, it‘s getting harder to answer those questions.  Unless you do a tour overseas you really don‘t face the chance to put your training to use.  Even then, what we do overseas is not what we train for here (in the reserves).  All that coupled with the present government‘s lack of support for the Forces makes it real hard to soldier on.


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## armd_recce (24 Dec 2001)

Well, I won‘t add to what has been covered already, but... 
I have rationalized that it really makes no difference to me professionally if our Army is big or small, rich or poor. The leadership challenges are the same, the job satisfaction is the same, the requirement for professional development is the same. Sure it‘s better to have the jammy kit, or maybe even maintain a facade of cbt readiness (dream, dream, dream) but being a soldier and a leader is still satisfying. I don‘t know how long that view of mine will hold, but it‘s working for now.
Further, reserves ever being deployed as intact sub units or sub sub units? Man, I‘m not holding my breath despite the Area Comds promises.


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## Spanky (24 Dec 2001)

I have to agree with many of your points Schwerpunkt.  It is a profession to take pride in.  Your statements regarding leadership and job satisfaction, however, I disagree with.  With no clear purpose or goal, it is much more difficult to motivate troops.  When the troops know why they exist as a military, with clearly defined roles, they are much more easier to crank up.  The same could be said for job satisfaction.  Hard to take pride in a job well done, when you don‘t have a job.

Merry Christmas to All!!!!!


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## armd_recce (24 Dec 2001)

Well Spanky, it looks as if you and I have pretty much the same job, going by your profile. And the way I see it, my job is centered around the training and leadership of soldiers at the Tp level. If I was kitted out with a great CRV (ie not the Coyote), or if I was sabre and had M1A1s, and I knew that in six months I would be turning enemy troops into ‘logistical drains‘ it would certainly give a greater urgency to the training, and certainly more satisfaction and motivation. But for now, those 20 other troops require the same leadership, care and trg as if we were part of a real cbt capable army. True as well that it‘s a drain on them when there isn‘t a real focus for the trg or they all know that this army isn‘t mission capable. But that‘s where the leadership and peer camraderie comes in, to make it more attractive for them to stay than to go. Build a tightly knit Tp, pester the BC with good trg ideas, make sure you have a dead keen and agressive Tp WO, keep the Tps directly involved in the direction of their trg and occasionally throw a ‘freebie‘ like UC or bayo trg their way. Tps will feed off positive waves and get excited. 
Sorry to be rambling, but I guess I‘m trying to say if you have good Tp command elements (Ptl comds and up) that are seen to be keen, switched on and enjoy working together, if the Tp officer and Tp WO are seen to be enjoying their jobs and feeding off each other‘s energy, then you can‘t really go wrong. 
And as for retention? Well, those that don‘t really want to be there will always leave, and there‘s NOTHING wrong with a troop serving for a year or two and then calling it a day. Give ‘em a handshake, say thanks for your time and contribution and be sure to tell your friends about us. Let‘s stop looking at the ‘early releasers‘ as letting the team down and quitters. Just throwing that out there for gen consideration.
Merry Christmas all! (doesn‘t look like there‘s a Mk 19 under the tree for me this year. Oh well.)


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## Bill Green (26 Dec 2001)

Lots of excellent posts from diverse perspectives.  Good units seem to achieve a steady state of training and ceremonial opportunities.  Great units are constantly at the edge of a training envelope that includes the extras previously mentioned like unarmed combat, mountaineering,(ops in difficult terrain) rappelling,SAT use, competitions, pistol trg. computer war gaming (TEWT) adventure trg(whitewater canoeing,hoseback riding, parachuting,paragliding you get the picture).  And nothing builds competence in a unit outside of actual field time like great course work QL2(BMQ) and QL3 and 4(SQ) where young and mature leaders get to share their military skills and culture with new soldiers and recruits.

My only concern is with continued budget restrictions that limit reservists to 3.8 days of trg per month how best do we keep a professional edge?  I would like some comments from other Bde areas to see if this is a standard allocation across our country.

Lastly I am very interested in LFRR.  In a recent Esprit D‘Corps interview with Gen Fitch, and I heard him address the issue, he is tasked with defining a role for the reserve.  He has mentioned CIMIC, and some engineering roles but I think his scope is much bigger and broader.  And his timelines are a year possibly 2 at most.  If you have ideas I think he is interested in receiving them at least that is my read.

Without going into a lot of detail one additional role I would like to see for the reserve is to train all recruits entering the CF.  Perhaps this will initiate some commentary.


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## Spanky (26 Dec 2001)

Bill have you checked out the DND website?  Follow the Army link once there, and you‘ll find an LFRR link.  There is a good discussion board regarding LFRR.  There are some interesting discussion occuring with input from everyone from civie, recruits to LCols.
www.dnd.ca/eng/index.html


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Dec 2001)

Bill,
I think the idea of the Reserves running CFRS‘s has merit. Where I see the problem is getting passed the Reg force mentallity that reserves are second rate and not worthy. They would likely require all the new instructor staff to take a redesigned (by them) CLC course, taught by them, no matter your rank. They would likely disguise it as, and call it a Standards course(only about 10- weeks long). The other problem would be the pressure brought onto the new recruits leaving basic for their new Units. Until these pers become the majority of the military, they will be stigmatized by their Reg force peers as not meeting the standard because they came through THAT RESERVE COURSE. For all the talk, and no matter how much the Reserve fills the gaps for the Regs or otherwise prove themselves time and again, the Regs don‘t trust them and seldom let the chance to ridicule them, for one thing or another, pass by. Other than the above, and your stepping on Reg force empire building plans, yeah, no problem. Except if they were teaching in CFRS, who‘d beef up the Regs for rotos


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## ryemaybee (7 Feb 2002)

Hey everyone I know this is an old thread but it was to tempting to resist. I have to agree with schwerpunkt (Hey Boss), regardless of our circumstances as leaders (making a big assumption here) our troops depend on us and are looking for leadership and training from us. I‘m new to my appointment and as such have been recently exposed to whole world of information that I was previously not privy to...things like budget, lack of resources, LFRR, ARE, and other institutional changes. As a senior nco I am to be familiar with this stuff so that I can provide input to my peers and superiors. The fact that the news has tended to be all bad means just one thing: suck it up, ruck up , and carry on. I don‘t pass my dissapointments with our shrinking budgets and timeframes with my soldiers...my job is to train them for war (whether we will see it or not). And I do the best I can with the tools that are given me. No training event is "boring" a little creativity (remember ICEPAC anyone?) can make the driest of lectures exciting and even fun. Motivated leadership is the key.
My two cents.


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## Jungle (8 Feb 2002)

For everybody‘s info, there are reservists teaching at CFLRS at this moment. Apart from the normal pre-requisite of being qual‘d JLC, all they had to do was follow the GMTI (General Military Training Instr)course, like all reg F pers, regardless of background. And some of them are doing very good... better than some of the permanent staff. Someone who spent 17 years tightening bolts on an airframe in a hangar, or painting the hull of a ship, does not feel at home in the field, or doing drill, or just about anything military for that matter.  :sniper:


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