# ROTP   Pay  Questions ?



## ChaosTheory (21 Jun 2006)

Hey There, I was accepted into the RoTP and have been sworn in.  I will be a CELE and I will be going to a civilian university to study Computer Sciences, at Simon Fraser University here in BC.  My question is, as I have not been told, how does the CF pay for our tutition, books, instruments etc when we are attending a civilian university?  Thank you.

OCdt Josh Weissbock.


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## kincanucks (21 Jun 2006)

On a message, of which you should have been given a copy, is a section that states the contact information for your University Liaison Officer (ULO).  If that information is not there then contact your CFRC/D and ask them.  You will be required to report to your ULO at a certain time and everything will be explained to you about tution, books, pay, etc.


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## JimMorrison19 (17 Aug 2008)

Alright, I've got a question. I found a thread in a search that had a semi-similar topic but it was old and I didn't want to derail the original topic. 

My question is to for anyone who is doing ROTP at the RMC or has done it: How much can you afford out of your monthly pay? I'm asking because I'm looking at applying up in a couple of years but just bought a truck. Is it possible to be able to afford a total monthly payment of about $380 outside of deductions and living expenses?


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## Big Foot (17 Aug 2008)

From my experience, yes you can afford that. However, the caveat is that you will not have a lot of money for other things. Case and point: last year, in fourth year, I was making combined payments of close to $800/month from December through until May. So, it is possible to do but you must ensure that you properly budget your money in order to make sure that you have the money to pay your bills. I was netting approximately $600/month and was only able to make payments because I planned ahead and saved money to make sure I could meet all my obligations.


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## JimMorrison19 (17 Aug 2008)

Thanks Big Foot, it's reassuring that you tell me this . Is that including what you get deducted for your housing and the portions that go to food, etc.?


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## Big Foot (17 Aug 2008)

Yes, though it is not including things like credit card bills, cell phone bills, things of that nature. Just remember though, it is doable just watch your finances.


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## JimMorrison19 (17 Aug 2008)

Sounds good. Credit cards and cell phones... not sure about those yet.


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## Radcliffe (16 Sep 2008)

Hey, I just got into ROTP, transferring from the reserves. Unfortunately my time in wasn't enough to keep my former OCdt pay and they just about cut it in half. However, qualifying for PLD makes it a pretty sweet deal anyway.

So today I went in to get paid, and they said that I pay about 40% taxes, which is a huge deduction for me that I didn't plan on, especially making <25 000. Is this similar to what most of you pay? I thought 40% tax was for like, wealthy people. But yeah. Please let me know.


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## Puss~in~Boots (16 Sep 2008)

It does seem a bit high. A problem that occurs with taxes is when an enrolment is processed late (ie. Enrolled in Aug but processed in Oct). It's hard to say speaking in general terms. All that I can tell you is that we do process tax adjustments back to the member if the taxes are wayyy out of whack. 

I suggest you speak with your pay clerk and request that your file be sent up to be audited. You might get some back depending on your situation.


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## SMP (16 Sep 2008)

Did you check to see if your most recent pay was your retroactive backpay from the recent pay increase? There is a chance that you are still in the Reserve Pay System, and haven't been transferred over to the Reg F one. I also CTed in to ROTP, and the only pay I recieved this week was the backpay from my reserve time (Apr-Sep 08). Talk to your ULO to ensure you are in correct pay system, and get a copy of your pay statement to be sure. Due to vested pay rights, it is unlikely that you are getting paid any less that you had been while you were in the PRes, although I am not 100% sure on that one.


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## aesop081 (16 Sep 2008)

Radcliffe said:
			
		

> Hey, I just got into ROTP, transferring from the reserves. Unfortunately my time in wasn't enough to keep my former OCdt pay and they just about cut it in half. However, qualifying for PLD makes it a pretty sweet deal anyway.
> 
> So today I went in to get paid, and they said that I pay about 40% taxes, which is a huge deduction for me that I didn't plan on, especially making <25 000. Is this similar to what most of you pay? I thought 40% tax was for like, wealthy people. But yeah. Please let me know.



When you take into account your pension contributions, CPP/QPP , income tax, EI and all the other deductions that get taken from a RegF paycheck, 40% is about right. I have no doubt that by "taxes", this is what they meant.


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## Radcliffe (16 Sep 2008)

Thanks for all the replies, but yeah I'm sure that my pay is being reduced despite vested pay rights, I suppose I don't have enough time in. (Only a year)

If it's true that deductions are about 40%, that's really crappy and I'm probably going to have to take on a part time job in order to pay rent and bills.  Do you still get the income tax part back when you file taxes because you're a student?

Once I get on the system and get a look at a pay stub I'll check to see what deductions are actually being made. Thanks for your help everyone.


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## The_Falcon (16 Sep 2008)

SMP said:
			
		

> Did you check to see if your most recent pay was your retroactive backpay from the recent pay increase? There is a chance that you are still in the Reserve Pay System, and haven't been transferred over to the Reg F one. I also CTed in to ROTP, and the only pay I recieved this week was the backpay from my reserve time (Apr-Sep 08). Talk to your ULO to ensure you are in correct pay system, and get a copy of your pay statement to be sure. *Due to vested pay rights, it is unlikely that you are getting paid any less that you had been while you were in the PRes, although I am not 100% sure on that one. *



As has been discussed in several threads (and even mentioned in the DAOD on CTing) vested pay rights DO NOT exisist when making the leap from the PRes to the Regs.


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## Radcliffe (17 Sep 2008)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> As has been discussed in several threads (and even mentioned in the DAOD on CTing) vested pay rights DO NOT exisist when making the leap from the PRes to the Regs.



Well the formula for a CT when you do ROTP is: all of your class B days + (.25 x all class A days) = x If x < 365, there are no vested pay rights. X > or equal to 365, vested pay righs apply. So, in my case I had 450 class A days and two summers class B, so 115 plus 95 class B days = 210. Therefore I get paid shit. 

You'd have to be in the Pres for three years and have like three full summers of class B to get sweet pay, and then you'd get corporal pay all through university, and you'd be gold. So those high school privates who join when they're sixteen or seventeen have the right idea.


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## PMedMoe (17 Sep 2008)

Talk about taxes!  I found out yesterday that my posting allowance was taxed at (approx) 48.3%!!  

As far as the Res to Reg pay calculations, I personally found that it depended on who was calculating your pay.  For instance, my time counted towards pension and I got Pte IPC 3 when I joined (after 5 years Class A & B, 1 year Class C and 1.5 years RegF time).  Other people who joined after me, with less Res time (and no Reg), kept their Cpl rank.  Go figure.


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## George Wallace (17 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Talk about taxes!  I found out yesterday that my posting allowance was taxed at (approx) 48.3%!!
> 
> As far as the Res to Reg pay calculations, I personally found that it depended on who was calculating your pay.  For instance, my time counted towards pension and I got Pte IPC 3 when I joined (after 5 years Class A & B, 1 year Class C and 1.5 years RegF time).  Other people who joined after me, with less Res time (and no Reg), kept their Cpl rank.  Go figure.



Everyone is considered individually.  What you never included in your post was things like what positions they may have held in their Unit, what courses they may have had, and what deployments the may have had.  Those are all considerations that are taken into account, as well, towards the offer of IP level, Rank, etc.


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## PMedMoe (17 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Everyone is considered individually.  What you never included in your post was things like what positions they may have held in their Unit, what courses they may have had, and what deployments the may have had.  Those are all considerations that are taken into account, as well, towards the offer of IP level, Rank, etc.



I realize there is info missing.  Most of the personnel I knew had no "special" courses besides their QL3 of QL5 (Res).  I do know that a calculation method came out later but was only retroactive to a certain date, much like when the requirement for 5 years service to get 25 days of annual leave was changed to include reserve time.  I think the biggest point against me was that although I was QL5 qualified it was in a different trade.  Not that it particularly mattered as all of us did our QL3, QL5, etc, again. As we both stated, it is done on an individual basis.


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## MJP (17 Sep 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Talk about taxes!  I found out yesterday that my posting allowance was taxed at (approx) 48.3%!!



That is why you have to use it for Mortgage buydown (probably not an option as you went IR IIRC).  I love my mortgage rate and the low(er) payments makes up for losing PLD and LDA.


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## chris_log (27 Sep 2008)

Radcliffe said:
			
		

> Well the formula for a CT when you do ROTP is: all of your class B days + (.25 x all class A days) = x If x < 365, there are no vested pay rights. X > or equal to 365, vested pay righs apply. So, in my case I had 450 class A days and two summers class B, so 115 plus 95 class B days = 210. Therefore I get paid crap.
> 
> You'd have to be in the Pres for three years and have like three full summers of class B to get sweet pay, and then you'd get corporal pay all through university, and you'd be gold. So those high school privates who join when they're sixteen or seventeen have the right idea.



Despite this topic being a good 10 days, I thought I'd clarify something. To get 'sweet pay', you don't have to be in the 'Mo for 3 years and three full class B summers. I was in for just under a year with no class B time and I'm getting more then double what a 'normal' OCdt would make (I clear about $2800 a month after taxes).

If anyone is interested I can find the CBI I used to justify (and eventually receive) getting the proper pay.   

EDIT: The CBI ref I used was 204.211(10)(b) found at http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/pdf/CBI_204_Sec_2.pdf 

That was the ref used to justify me getting the amount I get now. Multiple ROTP types who joined from the 'Mo with less then a year in got vastly better pay, so don't just let it slide, you probably are entitled to it if you have at least finished BMQ.


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## SMP (27 Sep 2008)

I have seen the same thing Piper, there were guys in my old unit who left for RMC after completing their SQ's. Less than a year in, and getting Pte 1 Reg F pay. They pay you the equivilant to what your prior pay was. I saw no decrease in my pay, in fact it increased, when I went ROTP.


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## SMP (27 Sep 2008)

Oh. Look at your ETP message and it should tell you how you are being paid.


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## Radcliffe (28 Sep 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Despite this topic being a good 10 days, I thought I'd clarify something. To get 'sweet pay', you don't have to be in the 'Mo for 3 years and three full class B summers. I was in for just under a year with no class B time and I'm getting more then double what a 'normal' OCdt would make (I clear about $2800 a month after taxes).
> 
> If anyone is interested I can find the CBI I used to justify (and eventually receive) getting the proper pay.
> 
> ...



That's the reference they used to decrease my pay, see I'm going from reserve officer to reg force officer, so that particular paragraph doesn't apply to me and I don't think there's anything I can do. Oh well.


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## RubberTree (28 Sep 2008)

You can't claim tuition (T2202a) because you didn't pay for your schooling, the crown did. No "student" tax break.


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## chris_log (28 Sep 2008)

Radcliffe said:
			
		

> That's the reference they used to decrease my pay, see I'm going from reserve officer to reg force officer, so that particular paragraph doesn't apply to me and I don't think there's anything I can do. Oh well.



What rank were you as a reserve officer? Something doesn't seem right about your situation.


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## Radcliffe (28 Sep 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> What rank were you as a reserve officer? Something doesn't seem right about your situation.



Officer Cadet. I'm CAP qualified now with like 15 months in. I hope they have me doing phase 3 infantry this summer but that seems a little bit iffy.


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## chris_log (29 Sep 2008)

Radcliffe said:
			
		

> Officer Cadet. I'm CAP qualified now with like 15 months in. I hope they have me doing phase 3 infantry this summer but that seems a little bit iffy.



Ah. Well if you were an OCdt before then it makes sense that you would be getting OCdt pay now. I.e. I was a PRes Pte and transfered into the RegF as an OCdt, therefore even though I am an OCdt I am getting Pte pay because thats the pay I would have gotten had I transferred into the RegF as my previous rank. You were an OCdt before and therefore, you are receiving the RegF pay for your previous rank (like I'm getting RegF pay for my previous rank). At least that how it seems to me. 

How long were you a OCdt in the PRes and how long have you been in ROTP?


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## Radcliffe (29 Sep 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Ah. Well if you were an OCdt before then it makes sense that you would be getting OCdt pay now. I.e. I was a PRes Pte and transfered into the RegF as an OCdt, therefore even though I am an OCdt I am getting Pte pay because thats the pay I would have gotten had I transferred into the RegF as my previous rank. You were an OCdt before and therefore, you are receiving the RegF pay for your previous rank (like I'm getting RegF pay for my previous rank). At least that how it seems to me.
> 
> How long were you a OCdt in the PRes and how long have you been in ROTP?



They use the same reasoning they used on me to have Corporals receive OCdt pay, so I don't think that's how it goes, but I really don't know how it works. Like, my reserve OCdt pay was 98 dollars a day (2940/month), and now I'm getting <50 dollars a day, just on salary (1446/month). Whereas if you were a corporal for a number of years or you get good recruiters (maybe), then you get to keep your per day reserve pay.

I was in the PRes as an OCdt for 15 months and I've been in ROTP for just under a month. My coming of strength date was September 3, and I released from the reserves September 2. So yeah, this could all sort itself out when they get me properly "in the system", but that's not what they told me. As far as I know I still have to go into my orderly room and have them cut me a cheque for pay, because my pay data isn't in their computers.

\/\/\/ Oh definitely, thanks for all the help and information, everyone.


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## SMP (29 Sep 2008)

Don't give up though! If you ever in the coming months (or next summer on courses) find somebody in your situation who is getting paid differently (as for being an OCdt in the PREs), bring it up to your CoC.


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## chris_log (29 Sep 2008)

SMP said:
			
		

> Don't give up though! If you ever in the coming months (or next summer on courses) find somebody in your situation who is getting paid differently (as for being an OCdt in the PREs), bring it up to your CoC.



Exactly, that's how I found out I was entitled. I was under the impression you needed a certain amount of time in, your Cpl's and to be QL3 (now its DP2 or something like that) qualified. Then my younger sister (who had less TI in the 'Mo then I had) transferred into ROTP and started getting way more pay then I did...so I queried my CoC and after much poking, prodding, nearly getting charged for being a colossal 'pain in the behind' and the help of a very wise Capt. I finally got my money 2 years later (I considered it an enforced savings plan, I got $25 000 after taxes, but beware as it bumps you into a higher tax bracket for that year). 

I would continue to ask around. Who knows, although you are in an odd situation (all the people I've encountered were NCM-to-officer, not officer-to-officer). It would be worth asking (through your CoC) exactly why this has happened to you (they can direct you to the proper people to answer the question).


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