# "Sergeant Major" and CWO Appointments



## sandoval (20 Sep 2004)

I was looking through the CF rank structure on several webistes, and noticed a few discrepancies and what seems like the addition of a CWO appointment (Brigade Chief Warrant Officer). There's the regular rank structure at http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/community/insignia/index_e.htm, but at http://www.dnd.ca/admmat/dglepm/badges-insignia/army_rank_deu_e.htm, there's also a new addition of Brigade CWO with a new badge. Theres also the equivalent Fleet Chief Petty Officer for navy and (found on another website, cant remember which) Group Chief Warrant Officer for air force (with just an eagle under the CWO badge).

I'm thinking these postitions would already exist (remember a brigade seregant major or something), and these are just new badges for them, but I'm wondering if they've been issued out yet, and if someone holds these titles. Also where does CWO of a higher formation fit in, what higher formations would they command?


----------



## Michael Dorosh (20 Sep 2004)

CWO's don't command anything....

It looks like they have simply distinguished between a Base CWO and a Brigade CWO (or Brigade RSM) with a different insignia.  The Brigade RSMs used to wear the crossed swords, the same as a Base CWO.  That would be my interpretation, anyway.

The only formations above a Brigade are Division, Corps, Army, and Army Group.   A "Division CWO" would be, I think, unheard of to this point in time, but I stand to be corrected on that.


----------



## McG (20 Sep 2004)

An Area HQ is a higher formation.  Another higher formation in the Army is LFDTS.


----------



## dutchie (20 Sep 2004)

But isn't 'Area' stricly administrative, as opposed to Battalion, Brigade, Division etc.?


----------



## Michael Dorosh (20 Sep 2004)

Caeser said:
			
		

> But isn't 'Area' stricly administrative, as opposed to Battalion, Brigade, Division etc.?



I was of course referring to higher combatant formations.  I'm not sure what the legal definition is; McG may have a good point.  Do they have "Area RSMs"?  I am guessing they do?

Is there really a need for so many RSMs?  What role do they fill?  I am genuinely curious as I have no idea - Garrison RSM, Brigade RSM, blah blah - what are their duties?

It is interesting that in WW II, the German Army never had what we call an RSM even at the battalion level.  They did have their equivalent of CSM, who performed roughly the same duties (he wore two rows of rank lace on his sleeves, had several cool nicknames, and wore a reporting pouch in the front of his tunic).   But at the battalion level, as far as I can tell, they had no senior NCO or equivalent to the RSM.


----------



## McG (20 Sep 2004)

Caeser said:
			
		

> But isn't 'Area' stricly administrative, as opposed to Battalion, Brigade, Division etc.?


Yes, but it is still a higher formation (in that its componets are brigades, bases, ASUs, and other units & formations) and there is an Area CWO in each LF Area.

All the way up to the CDS, every officer in a command position is paired with a Sr NCO.  This is to ensure that the soldiers' voice is heard all the way to the top.


----------



## Infanteer (20 Sep 2004)

> Is there really a need for so many RSMs?  What role do they fill?  I am genuinely curious as I have no idea - Garrison RSM, Brigade RSM, blah blah - what are their duties?



Yes, I kind of agree with you there, Michael.  Up above Brigade their position seems kind of superfluous; although I can see the need for a Base RSM in order to keep a garrison in running order.  But I honestly wonder how Formation RSM's do?

My guess is that the idea is to keep a solid "NCO support chain" all the way from the lowest section commander to the CWO of the Canadian Forces.


----------



## Highland Laddie (20 Sep 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Do they have "Area RSMs"?   I am guessing they do?



Yep, they do, and I can personally attest to this. On Ex Active Edge 04 the Area RSM noted I was wearing my 'Stealth suit' top instead of my issue rain jacket in the field, and asked the Brigade RSM to "request that the young Captain either wear the stealth suit under the combat shirt, or wear the issued rain jacket". See, even Captains are not beyond the reach of the RSM ;D. 

I do agree with his point about "setting a bad example of the troops"; however, most of the people around me were either wearing "crowns" or "three bars" ;D Oh well, if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at....


----------



## Infanteer (20 Sep 2004)

> On Ex Active Edge 04 the Area RSM noted I was wearing my 'Stealth suit' top instead of my issue rain jacket in the field, and asked the Brigade RSM to "request that the young Captain either wear the stealth suit under the combat shirt, or wear the issued rain jacket".



There is a reason it's called a stealth suit you know....


----------



## sandoval (20 Sep 2004)

Thanks for the replies, it all seems to make more sense now. Just wondering what kind of other duties CWOs above the brigade level would have aside from representing a continuous NCO chain. Are there a lot of NCM staff working directly for LFCA (for example) that he would supervise (not sure the right term), or is he almost just like an other officer?


----------



## McG (20 Sep 2004)

He would be an adviser to the Commander.


----------



## pbi (21 Sep 2004)

Having worked at both Area and Bde level, I can say I've seen several different RSMs at those levels. Their true value is really exactly the same as the true value of the RSM or SM at any level: it's directly proportionate to the human qualities of the RSM combined with the quality of the relationship between him and the Comd. I've seen excellent ones who kept the troops at heart, and I'v seen useless timeservers who just wanted to lord it over their peers. Best case, the relationship is tight and serves to ensure the continuance of the NCO chain to the top. Worst case it's window dressing.

As to the utility of the position, I believe it is very important in an all volunteer professional Army. In a conscript army, nobody cares what the NCOs and troops think, so who needs the NCO chain? The fact is that, the higher up the command echelon you go, the more you are at risk of becomig detached from the reality at unit level (you can sometimes even see that within a unit). I am often amazed at the different perceptions of reality at unit, Bde and up at Area: no wonder NDHQ is out of it. So, the RSM at these levels is an important conduit for reality, as we long as we let them tell the truth, no matter how unpleasant that may be. As soon as we turn RSMs into errand boys or "yes-men", we've screwed it, IMHO.

As an interesting aside on the value of professional NCOs, a Norwegian officer here told me that after several decades of not having NCOs (as we know them), they are examining a return to a professional NCO cadre to help lead and train their conscripts.

So, do we need the RSMs above unit? IMHO, yes. (The Germans didn't have them, but that doesn't mean they didn't need them, and anyway all armies are different) Do they do a useful job?: depends on the people factors, as it usually does. Cheers.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (21 Sep 2004)

Hmm - Infanteer took my question to mean I thought we didn't need them, and pbi thought my example of the Krauts meant we don't need them...

Nothing further from the truth, just trying to clarify exactly what it is they DO....getting some good answers, thanks.


----------



## pbi (21 Sep 2004)

Michael: roger that-no harm done.


On the issue of   the Areas being purely "administrative" HQs, that is a concept that was overtaken by events several years ago. Domestic ops, both unarmed and armed, have been the purview of these HQs for the better part of a decade now. All the LFA HQs now have a number of major Dom Ops under their belts, including security ops such as OP GRIZZLY(G8) in Kananaskis and the NATO DefMin Conf in Toronto. Each LFA runs a 24/7 Ops Centre and maintains the capability to quickly ramp up crisis action staff plannig teams. LFWA and LFCA HQs have auxiliary power sources to maintain op cap in an emergency. The Army now recognizes that LFAHQs are formation HQs, although static in nature, with a clear operational role. Despite what they may think, the Regular CMBGs are subordinate to this role: they are only one part of the domestic ops capy of an LFA. What is still lacking is a truly "deployable" capability, such as was required for LFWA during both GRIZZLY and PEREGRINE (BC Fires), but I know they are working on this. Cheers.


----------



## McG (25 Sep 2004)

Brainfreezed said:
			
		

> I'm thinking these postitions would already exist (remember a brigade seregant major or something), and these are just new badges for them, but I'm wondering if they've been issued out yet, and if someone holds these titles. Also where does CWO of a higher formation fit in, what higher formations would they command?


Did my investigation.   Here is the result:

The Bde CWO badge has been in the works for a few years now.   The intent is that one will now be able to distinguish between the Bde CWO and a Base CWO.   Traditionally Bde CWOs wore the Base CWO badge.   The new badge is now in use and has been in use for a few months.


----------



## Gayson (7 Dec 2004)

A question has come to my mind lately. . . 

Companies / Squadrons have MWO' as Company / Squadron Sargeant-Majors.

Regiments have CWO's as Regimental Sargeant-Majors.

Do Battalions have Sargeant-Majors?  If so what rank do they usually hold?


----------



## McG (7 Dec 2004)

CWO and the appointment is still typically called RSM.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (7 Dec 2004)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> A question has come to my mind lately. . .
> 
> Companies / Squadrons have MWO' as Company / Squadron Sargeant-Majors.
> 
> ...



Battalions and Regiments are the same thing in the modern sense of the word.  The PPCLI do NOT have a Regimental Sergeant Major, rather, each battalion of the PPCLI has its own RSM.

Confused yet....??

The short answer was given above.


----------



## Gayson (7 Dec 2004)

I got it.

so 1PPCLI and 2PPCLI have different RSM's.

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (7 Dec 2004)

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> I got it.
> 
> so 1PPCLI and 2PPCLI have different RSM's.
> 
> Thanks for the clarification.



Exactly.  Armoured Regiments are still called Regiments, but in actuality are armoured "battalions".  Same deal, they have their own RSM.


----------



## Jungle (7 Dec 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Battalions and Regiments are the same thing in the modern sense of the word.   The PPCLI do NOT have a Regimental Sergeant Major, rather, each battalion of the PPCLI has its own RSM.
> 
> Confused yet....??
> 
> The short answer was given above.


This is not exactly true. In the R22eR, we have RSMs in every Battalion, but we also have a "Chief Warrant Officer of the Regiment". He is the RSM of the area training center (formerly the Regt'l Battle School) and overseas Regt'l activities, career and succession planning etc...


----------



## Michael Dorosh (7 Dec 2004)

Now that is interesting, Jungle, thanks for the clarification.

Reserve brigades also have "Brigade RSMs" which would sort be a "Regimental Sergeant Major" if you consider a Brigade the equivalent of a Regiment in other armies.


----------



## rifleman (7 Dec 2004)

RSM and CSM are very overused terms. Brigades have Brigade Chief Warrant Officers, RSM is usually used as the Bde CWOs were RSMs before being appointed. You can have more than one CWO in a unit, and only one is the RSM.  All MWOs are not CSMs


----------



## pbi (8 Dec 2004)

rifleman said:
			
		

> RSM and CSM are very overused terms. Brigades have Brigade Chief Warrant Officers, RSM is usually used as the Bde CWOs were RSMs before being appointed. You can have more than one CWO in a unit, and only one is the RSM. All MWOs are not CSMs



Actually, Bdes and other formations have whatever their Commanders say they have. LFWA, for example, has an ARSM, not an ACWO. In 38 CBG we have a BRSM. If a Bde wants to call it the "BCWO" (which risks confusion with the Air Force Base Chief Warrant Officer) that is up to their Commander. Cheers.


----------



## rifleman (8 Dec 2004)

True, the commander can be call them Head Honcho, doesn't mean its correct. MO


----------



## pbi (8 Dec 2004)

rifleman said:
			
		

> True, the commander can be call them Head Honcho, doesn't mean its correct. MO



I'm curious to know what yardstick you are using to define "correct", since the yerm "Regimental Sergeant Major" is itself "traditional" rather than "correct": in the Infantry and CSS they are actually SMs of battalions" not "regiments". Cheers.


----------



## rifleman (8 Dec 2004)

Yardstick? haven't seen that for years. I base it on the name 'RSM' for Regiments.

I was in 38 and others calling the Bde CWO, RSM drove me nuts.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (8 Dec 2004)

rifleman said:
			
		

> Yardstick? haven't seen that for years. I base it on the name 'RSM' for Regiments.
> 
> I was in 38 and others calling the Bde CWO, RSM drove me nuts.



And calling the battalion sergeant major "RSM" didn't?

I usually just call them all "Sir" anyway....


----------



## rifleman (8 Dec 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> And calling the battalion sergeant major "RSM" didn't?
> 
> I usually just call them all "Sir" anyway....



Who say I did that either..  ^-^


----------



## pbi (8 Dec 2004)

rifleman said:
			
		

> Yardstick? haven't seen that for years. I base it on the name 'RSM' for Regiments.
> 
> I was in 38 and others calling the Bde CWO, RSM drove me nuts.



OK, great, but on what basis do you say that calling it "BRSM" is not correct, but "Bde CWO" is? Or is it that you just don't like that term? IMHO "CWO" is just a rank: "SM", or "RSM" or "BRSM" indicates an appointment, which is why the BRSM gets the appointment badge. If we are talking about opinions here, then mine is that the fewer "CF purple" terms we use in the Army the better. Cheers.


----------



## rifleman (8 Dec 2004)

What does a Bde CWO have to do with "purple" and 
By what tradition is a Brigade appointed CWO a RSM?


----------



## Michael Dorosh (8 Dec 2004)

rifleman said:
			
		

> What does a Bde CWO have to do with "purple" and
> By what tradition is a Brigade appointed CWO a RSM?



CWO is a RANK

RSM is an APPOINTMENT

Army units generally refer to people by their APPOINTMENT when and where it exists.   When was the last time you heard the Pipe Major addressed as "sergeant"?   

Purple refers to Unification and the mixing of the three elements.  While the other services may refer to persons in appointments by their rank, it is not an Army tradition.


----------



## rifleman (8 Dec 2004)

I know what purple refers to and last time I checked CWO was a army rank.

I contend that RSM is an appointment at the Regimental level.


----------



## Horse_Soldier (8 Dec 2004)

rifleman said:
			
		

> I know what purple refers to and last time I checked CWO was a army rank.
> 
> I contend that RSM is an appointment at the Regimental level.



You may contend all you like, but tradition throughout the Commonwealth is against you.  By tradition, the RSM is the senior non-commissioned appointment in a battalion-sized unit or above.  If the term RSM irks you, call him/her Brigade Sergeant-Major, but please leave abominations such as Bde CWO to the purple monster lurking around the fringes of the "green" army.


----------



## Infanteer (8 Dec 2004)

How about just calling him "Chief"....


----------



## Michael Dorosh (8 Dec 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> How about just calling him "Chief"....



Usually done whilst sitting in his chair and putting your feet on his desk.


----------



## Horse_Soldier (8 Dec 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> How about just calling him "Chief"....



You go ahead and do it.  I'll stick to the traditional titles.  I was reminded in a rather unmistakable manner twenty-odd years ago that the power of the RSM (be it unit, formation or command) goes beyond what us mere mortal officers can aspire to, and the lesson has stuck


----------



## Jungle (8 Dec 2004)

rifleman said:
			
		

> I know what purple refers to and last time I checked CWO was a army rank.


CWO is an Army *AND * Air Force rank. Only the Navy have different names for the same ranks.

Sgt-Majors are Army-only appointments.


----------



## RCA (8 Dec 2004)

And "Chiefs" are only in the Navy. I wouldn't advise using it on an Army CWO, particuallry an RSM.


----------



## Infanteer (8 Dec 2004)

In fact, call him "Chief" with your hands in your pockets and chewing on some gum.


----------



## Horse_Soldier (8 Dec 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> In fact, call him "Chief" with your hands in your pockets and chewing on some gum.


Go the whole hog: tie pulled loose, beret pushed to the back of the head and tunic unbuttoned.
 :gunner: :fifty:


----------



## Infanteer (8 Dec 2004)

I'm glad someone realized I was joking....


----------



## RCA (9 Dec 2004)

Sometimes people (and RSMs) take things too seriously and the humour escapes them....

Its from being a cynic toooo long


----------



## Steel Badger (20 Dec 2004)

What they really need to do is create a new badge for those OFFR and OR appointments who sit in Ottawa and rename things as a part of the ongoing CF RDRP (Routine Designation Replacement Program.)

Perhaps they should all wear the eight limbed arrow of chaos on their sleeves, just above the trade badge or OFFR / WO's rank insignia.

Or more appropriately, in various positions; The position of the month  designated by the Chief Ouji Board Operator (MOSID66690210) of the CF RDRP Cell. Going one step further , perhaps the COBO could use the Board to determine the period of interval between badge position changes.  This system would be a fool prof method of assuring random dress.....I have it on  reliable information that the Air Force has been using just such a system to determine their dress regs for years now. ;D


----------



## SHARP WO (23 Dec 2004)

You could also place a giant suggestion box in Ottawa and then you would have a mutitude of ideas to draw from.

SHARP WO


----------



## thorbahn (14 Feb 2005)

I've (obviously) not been in very long, just over 3 months actually. I'm currently on BMQ. 

Anyway, I was wondering what exactly the appointment of TSM, BSM, RSM etc. entails, and why CWO's always seem to be RSM's. Basically I'd like to know what Sergeant Major means.


----------



## the 48th regulator (14 Feb 2005)

not that I am trying to keep a secret or anything, but be patient and wait for the lecture on rank structure.  You will get a lot more out of it than anyone trying to explain it on the net.  Plus you will get the fortune of learning from a future SGT. Major.

cheers,

tess


----------



## Highland Lad (14 Feb 2005)

"Sergeant Major" (of any type - TSM, CSM, RSM, etc...) is an appointment, as opposed to a rank.

Quite simply, the Sergeant Major is the senior non-commissioned officer within a unit or sub-unit.

As for why CWOs always seem to be RSMs - it's simple; once a CWO has served as RSM, his (or her) duties usually take them beyond their parent unit. They then serve at larger formation HQs, or they take a commission (and finish their service in a less-stressful environment ;D).


----------



## pbi (14 Feb 2005)

Highland Lad said:
			
		

> "Sergeant Major" (of any type - TSM, CSM, RSM, etc...) is an appointment, as opposed to a rank.
> 
> Quite simply, the Sergeant Major is the senior non-commissioned officer within a unit or sub-unit.
> 
> As for why CWOs always seem to be RSMs - it's simple; once a CWO has served as RSM, his (or her) duties usually take them beyond their parent unit. They then serve at larger formation HQs, or they take a commission (and finish their service in a less-stressful environment ;D).



The term "Sergeant Major" goes back at least to the time of Cromwell in England and indicates the most senior of the sergeants in a company or unit. I question whether it was "just an appointment" throughout history: I think you will find that until around the time of WWI, it was a rank(paid accordingly), only. The possibility of a person being a WO2 (later MWO) or WO1 (later CWO) and not holding the position of "Sergeant Major" was something that I think only came along after WWI with the increased requirement for techically qualified senior WOs.

The appointment of   "Sergeant Major" in our Army today (post Unification) is not necessarily held by a MWO/CWO. A WO can be (and especially in the Res, often is) a sub-unit SM, and an MWO can be a unit SM. They may do this in an "acting" capacity, or they permanently fill the position due to a lack of qualified candidates.

As for a CWO "always" being an RSM, this is more prevalent in single-battalion Res units in which normally only one person holds the rank of CWO at a time, and is of course employed as RSM. In Regular Regts, there can be several individuals wearing CWO, but only one of them will be employed as the RSM of a battalion. The others may be found on extra-Regimental employment (ERE) at schools or various HQS in staff roles. In the technical branches, there may be more than one CWO in a large service support unit, due to the level of technical supervision and management required. Still, only one of these CWOs will be RSM. In the RegF a CWO could be promoted but might not ever be an RSM.

Cheers






































++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


----------



## dw_1984 (15 Feb 2005)

I don't want to sound like I wasn't paying attention during BMQ but what is a TSM?  Troop SM?  I've never heard of those before.


----------



## PeterLT (15 Feb 2005)

Things will be explained to you as you go on with your training. I suppose a simple way to explain what an RSM is, is simply to say that if you have occasion to be on the wrong side of one; you will learn *exactly* what an RSM is. 

Have fun!

Peter


----------



## pbi (15 Feb 2005)

Dingbat said:
			
		

> I don't want to sound like I wasn't paying attention during BMQ but what is a TSM?   Troop SM?   I've never heard of those before.



It is (I think) the Artillery equivalent to Platoon Warrant Officer in the Infantry. It might also represent "Technical Sgt Maj".



			
				PeterLT said:
			
		

> Things will be explained to you as you go on with your training. I suppose a simple way to explain what an RSM is, is simply to say that if you have occasion to be on the wrong side of one; you will learn *exactly* what an RSM is.
> 
> Have fun!
> 
> Peter



Hmmmm-surely we are not saying that the young and uninitiated should not be able to ask questions and get answers here? What's wrong with Dingbat showing an active curiosity?

Cheers.


----------



## Pencil Tech (15 Feb 2005)

.PBI, in the res arty regt I'm associated with we have a Tech WO. I've never heard of TSM  but maybe if someone from RCHA is listening in they might be able to help us with that. AS for the way they taught rank structure on the BMQ I was on - it was strictly that: rank structure - they never even mentioned other appointments.


----------



## dw_1984 (15 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> It is (I think) the Artillery equivalent to Platoon Warrant Officer in the Infantry. It might also represent "Technical Sgt Maj".
> 
> Hmmmm-surely we are not saying that the young and uninitiated should not be able to ask questions and get answers here? What's wrong with Dingbat showing an active curiosity?
> 
> Cheers.



Interesting...hmm...never heard of a troop warrant called a sgt maj before.  We use troops instead of platoons in the engrs as well.


----------



## the 48th regulator (15 Feb 2005)

Hi PBI,



> Hmmmm-surely we are not saying that the young and uninitiated should not be able to ask questions and get answers here? What's wrong with Dingbat showing an active curiosity?
> 
> Cheers.



Active curiosity is not being suppressed, but nothing is more frustrating to an instructor than having a student already know what is being taught "because he learned it on a website called army.ca".

As I said above, be patient and take in a good lecture, and I am sure he will get more out of it, than he would reading it of the computer.  I am sure he would also be more attentive if he does not already know the answer to the next sentence that the instructor is about to say.

my $0.02 as people say.

cheers

tess


----------



## thorbahn (15 Feb 2005)

The TSM I was referring to is Troop Sergeant Major, in the artilllery.




			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> not that I am trying to keep a secret or anything, but be patient and wait for the lecture on rank structure.  You will get a lot more out of it than anyone trying to explain it on the net.  Plus you will get the fortune of learning from a future SGT. Major.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> tess



I'm nearly done BMQ, we've had the rank structure lecture.


----------



## muskrat89 (15 Feb 2005)

Of my 13 years in, the last 5 or 6 were spent as an Artillery TSM. In the field battery, in an ideal world, there will be 2 TSMs - a Gunline TSM, and a Recce TSM. Rarely did I have that luxury. A TSM is the Senior NCO on a gun position. The Senior NCO in a Battery is the BSM - usually, he was with the echelon. Administratively, a Battery is (or was) often divided into Troops - Transport, Admin, Guns, Tech, etc. The TSM was the Troop Commander's Snr NCO. Hope that helps. That is based on 1996 info, BTW.

Regarding "What is a Sergeant Major?" I can't give this quote proper credit, because I can't recall the name of the book. I have it packed somewhere, and it was a book about wartime Aldershot (NS)



> He spoke, â Å“My name is Clifford Rafuse.â ? Then, taking his swagger stick and touching the crown insignia on his arm, he would say, â Å“I am a Sergeant-Major. You will not address me as Clifford, Cliff, Rafuse, sir, hey you, or any of the foul names you really think of me in your pea-sized brains. I am a Sergeant-Major â â€œ here, in the shower, in the latrine, in my drawers, in my pajamas, or when I am dead. I am, and always will be Sergeant-Major Rafuse to you. If you pumpkin-heads see me on the street twenty-five years from now- and most of you won't survive this training to live that long- I will still be addressed as Sergeant-Major by you. Do you understand that?â ? Then bellowing again, he demanded they scream an answer: â Å“Yes, Sergeant-Major.â ?
> He would then go on: â Å“I'm not your mother; I won't tuck you in bed; and I won't be your pal. I will make you bleedin', sloppy, unwashed, useless, pudgy loafers who thought this army was a holiday camp into battle shape. I shall turn your pudgy asses into such shape that you will have muscles in your defecation. Some few of you who fooled your way through some little school may think you are smart and will think you will fool me because you know the ABC's! You will not fool me; you are not smart. And when I say â Å“jumpâ ?, you say â Å“How highâ ?. When I say â Å“defecateâ ?, you say â Å“Yes, Sir, and what colour, Sir?. I shall make you baggy, civilian lot of unwashed, sloppy, buggers into cleaned, shined, well-spoken, and obedient battle-ready troops. Or.. you will suffer a fate and terror worse than hell.
> â Å“Your Mother can't save you. Nobody is tougher than I am. I am tougher than any Kraut you ever encounter. Even the Padre is scared of me. I'll march you, drill you, train you, punish you, and toughen you into soldiers. Don't talk back; don't complain, even to the Padre;  because my words will even bring tears to his eyes. Now tighten up those soft pudgy asses, pull in those sagging chins, and suck in those baggy guts. Hands by your sides with thumbs down the seams of those potato-bag looking trousers.
> â Å“Like this,â ? as he demonstrated, â Å“and when you get that right, we'll take you ladies to a lovely King's breakfast of such quality you'll be glad when we let you work in our kitchen. Our next present to you slobs will be a visit to His Majesty's barber so as you can get that bleedin', mangled, lady-length, dirty, bug-infested civilian hairdo cut off. You will then, at least, not look like a bleedin' civilian, with a filthy mat on your head. Now fall out, ladies, and form up for the cookhouse. MARCH â â€œ quickly, before I lose my f...n' temperâ ?
> ...


----------



## HopefulCandidate (15 Feb 2005)

Sounds like a likeable guy


----------



## Jungle (15 Feb 2005)

Well, to complement Muskrat 89's very coulouful quote, here's something more recent.
Extracted from a pamphlet prepared in 1985:



> "While it is difficult to say what a Sergeant-Major is, it is not difficult
> to say what he is not. First off, he is not an officer; he is a Master
> Warrant Officer, probably with between 15-20 years of service and with more
> professional Infantry training and expertise, not to mention experience,
> ...


----------



## pbi (15 Feb 2005)

Jungle: Fantastic quote. That is what I believed when I was a Res WO, what I tried to practice when I was an OC, and what I firmly believe. Larry Gollner was not liked by everybody, but he was a soldier IMHO.



> Active curiosity is not being suppressed, but nothing is more frustrating to an instructor than having a student already know what is being taught "because he learned it on a website called army.ca".



Respectfully, but this says more about the instructor than it does about the student. On this basis all recruits should commence training with completely empty heads and never bother to seek knowledge on their own: this is not the case now, and I know that it was certainly not the case when I was a Res recruit over 30 years ago. Soldiers are curious, and if you don't answer their question fast enough, they will find out on their own. I suggest that what you are really concerned is not that he "knows" it, but that he "blabs" it in class. The latter is a judgement thing, and has to be dealt with on a case by case basis, not by attempting to discourage previous knowledge. When I did officer basic at Chilliwack, I went through with a guy who also had plenty of previous experience. We kept our mouths shut and used our knowledge to help guys who needed it. Others (usually ex-Res) could not keep their mouths shut and suffered for it. Do you think we should have gone into officer training with no previous knowledge?

Cheers


----------



## Jungle (15 Feb 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Jungle: Fantastic quote... ... Larry Gollner was not liked by everybody, but he was a soldier IMHO


I have never met Col Gollner myself, but I believe his assessment is fairly accurate. The only thing that has changed since 1985 is the amount of time in to become CSM. While it was common to see someone promoted to MWO well before the 20 year mark, we barely ever see it now...


----------



## the 48th regulator (15 Feb 2005)

ok, so yer saying that the level of information regarding the military is easier to come by these days than it was when you were younger??  We may have the internet now, but I am sure you would have had the wealth of infomation of a generation that understood our military and was more than willing to pass any info on that they experienced when serving....

either way what ever...pbi yer bang on 

I guess I was reflecting a feelling that I had when I have taught, and maybe I am only reflecting an attitude that should be long dead...

thorbahn hope you got yer answer.

from a tired and slowly getting disgruntled tess...

out


----------



## pbi (16 Feb 2005)

> ok, so yer saying that the level of information regarding the military is easier to come by these days than it was when you were younger??  We may have the internet now, but I am sure you would have had the wealth of infomation of a generation that understood our military and was more than willing to pass any info on that they experienced when serving....



No-not really. My point wasn't about the information itself, it was about the desire to have it, and the fact that in our society today (and 30 years ago) lots of recruits already had lots of info in their heads and wanted to know more. And as for a "generation that understood our military"...well, all I can say that if people think Canadians are anti-military today, they should have seen this country in 1974. I hae ranted about this on other threads, so I'll spare you the foaming at the mouth, but it was grim. I did benefit, I think, from a small handful of older RegF RSS WOs and Sgts Maj who had been young soldiers in Korea, but were mostly approaching retirement by the time I joined the Res.

Cheers.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (16 Feb 2005)

Yep, that should do it.


----------

