# Civvy Supply Techs



## reccecrewman (24 Jan 2006)

Allright, this is going to start out as a bit of a rant ending with a genuine query that I'm hoping the wise heads of Army.ca can answer.
I went to Base Supply yesterday seeking a couple of stray pieces of kit I lost and need for a complete bug-out kit.  There was 2 Army Sup Techs and 2 civvy sup techs......... er..... 2 civvies behind the counter.  Now, there was about a half dozen guys ahead of me, not a terrible line-up and the short line enabled me to hear and see some things that made me see red and raise a question or two.  There was 2 young RCR Privates, one at an Army SupTech kiosk and 4 stations down, his buddy was at one of the civvies.  Buddy at the civvy asked for a ground sheet (Very common item) and without even pretending to search for it, she told him "We're all out".  Meanwhile, his chum also asked for a groundsheet to the Army SupTech and lo and friggin behold, she comes back 30 seconds later WITH a GROUNDSHEET!  Then he asks for a second set of ICE fleece and surprise surprise, they don't have his size.  Meanwhile, his pal (Who is roughly the same size and build) already has his second fleece set on the counter from the helpful Army SupTech.  I ensure that I go to an Army SupTech to exchange my $@!*ty SOG for old reliable GERBER and have no problems doing so.

But the 2 RCR Privates situation bothered me.  One guy gets the kit he as an infanteer NEEDS, and his pal gets screwed by someone who doesn't even wear a uniform (But probably has oodles of kit in her basement or all her friends who are into hunting are kitted out) Not only this, I also saw, as I have before, the civvies behind the counter seem to wield the power over the uniformed types by ordering them to go fetch this or climb up to that top shelf etc. etc.  I don't know how the Army SupTechs get through the day having to take some civvy's B.S time and again.  I'd snap.  

Rant over and done with, the genuine question is WHY are there even civvies in there anyway?  Give them a mop, broom and squeegee and designate a couple of buildings on base and let them go to town.  Why are they allowed to hold a position that even though they hold no rank, they still seem to be above junior NCM's in the chain of command?  Lastly, why do they try to keep a ridiculous grip on kit they're not entitled to wear because they didn't have the parts to go to Basic and become a legitimate storesman?  If they want the job, then they should have to go through the proper process of Recruit School, Trade Qualification training, then assigned to a Suppy Depot.  

Whew........ Well, that feels better


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## GO!!! (24 Jan 2006)

We have the same problem in Edmonton - but in reverse!

The "C" in civvy is for Candyman, and all manner of kit is freely distributed - you only have to ask! The army supply techs seem to do their jobs - with the usual "is it clean?" and "why do you need it?" to make you mad - but the civvies will let alot of it slide. 

I try to find the hottest, youngest one there, and with my dashing good looks, adonis - like physique and loads of charm, make her swoon - then they don't notice what they're handing out!


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (24 Jan 2006)

At this base we have only civies working supply and the nice thing is she is a former CF member, married to a Warrant and believes she's a general. Im pretty sure someone convinced her that the items you are asking for are deducted from her paycheck, otherwise I wouldn't get comments like "what the hell do you need two velcro Canadian flags for?"


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## foerestedwarrior (24 Jan 2006)

I think most of the civvies that work in supply, are ex military. Atleast some of them are here in Borden.


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## Jarnhamar (24 Jan 2006)

> We have the same problem in Edmonton - but in reverse!



I'm of the same opinion.  I've foind the civilian 'sup techs' go out of their way to get you good equipment. They will dig through whatever bin and find the best looking piece of kit and issue it to you.

Last summer I was pissed because I saw a pte supply tech go out of his way to give a soldier a shitty ratty ground sheet, which was worse than the one the dude was exchanging, yet when an officer came in he was tripping over himself to go find the officer the very bestest ground sheet a boy could find.

Someone said it's because the civies just don't care which causes some kinda problems but I still don't see how.

Just curious, what IS the reason behind civilians working as supply techs.
Do they get paid the same as soldiers? More, less?
Is it a matter of manpower problems and we don't have enough supply techs in the system?


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## Bzzliteyr (24 Jan 2006)

I am sure ArmyVern will chime in on this one soon, if she is not having an aneurysm from the Base issue of ICE that is pending.


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## armyvern (24 Jan 2006)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> I am sure ArmyVern will chime in on this one soon, if she is not having an aneurysm from the Base issue of ICE that is pending.



 ;D You know me well I see.


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## Daidalous (24 Jan 2006)

Civy's working in supply might be a touchy subject for some, but not for me.  Alot are retired military with a vast amount of Knowledge. Or hard working people that do the best that they can.   While some are just a waste of space that have no desire to learn what they are doing and just want the $18/hr and wave the union book around.  i will not name names, but ArmyVern know who I am talking about 


As for one of the earlier posts about a ratty ground sheet.   That is plain and simple wrong on the Supply Tech to even attempt to issue that out in the first place.  Most likly it was someone who was 1) to lazy to send it away for scrap or 2) Did not know


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## armyvern (24 Jan 2006)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Allright, this is going to start out as a bit of a rant ending with a genuine query that I'm hoping the wise heads of Army.ca can answer.


How about the "wise" (?-that's debatable) IC of Clothing Stores?


> I went to Base Supply yesterday seeking a couple of stray pieces of kit I lost and need for a complete bug-out kit.


Did they make you do the required Miscellaneaous Loss Report? I hope so. Shouldn't be hard to narrow down.


> There was 2 Army Sup Techs and 2 civvy sup techs......... er..... 2 civvies behind the counter.


They are called "Civilian Storesman"  


> Now, there was about a half dozen guys ahead of me, not a terrible line-up and the short line enabled me to hear and see *some* things that made me see red and raise a question or two.


Some being the operative word here. And hey, if you raised a question or two...who exactly did you raise it to if you were so concerned? I certainly never heard it, and I am the supervisor.


> Buddy at the civvy asked for a ground sheet *(Very common item)* and without even pretending to search for it, she told him "We're all out".


Very common item that happens to be experiencing critical shortages of stock across the CF right now due to the recent and huge increase in personnel deploying internationally. I wouldn't have searched either as we had issued our last ones out to SQ Course personnel yesterday morning as they had to turn theirs in before leaving Borden.


> Meanwhile, his chum also asked for a groundsheet to the Army SupTech and lo and friggin behold, she comes back 30 seconds later WITH a GROUNDSHEET!


This would be because that very same ARMY Supply Tech had actually received a ground sheet back during the release appointment she did, apparently just before you visited our location.


> Then he asks for a second set of ICE fleece and surprise surprise, they don't have his size.


Surprise surprise yourself. Read your Canforgens and Routine Orders like you are supposed to...then you wouldn't be surprised that there are "critical shortages" of IECS gortex and fleece. This has nothing to do with 'her' being a civvie. You've narrowed that one down good as well...there is only 1 female civvie on the ops counter.


> Meanwhile, his pal (Who is roughly the same size and build) already has his second fleece set on the counter from the helpful Army SupTech.


Yes...and that Cpl who issued the 2nd set obviously hadn't yet read the e-mail from me(the supervisor) (obviously the civy had read it already) directing that pers were only to be issued 1 set of fleece due to the same said critical shortges mentionned above. I did this because I'd rather see 2 people each get one set of fleece than 1 person get 2 and the other none because of the shortages. Make sense now?


> I ensure that I go to an Army SupTech to exchange my $@!*ty SOG for old reliable GERBER and have no problems doing so.


Yeah that's why it got exchanged...the civy wouldn't have done that  : crap.


> But the 2 RCR Privates situation bothered me.


So much so, that you immediately brought about this desperate situation to the supervisor....who would have told you that RCR was well aware these 2 Ptes might not get groundsheets, IECS etc due to the critical shortages being experienced, as as published in Base Routine Orders, Canforgen messages.


> One guy gets the kit he as an infanteer NEEDS, and his pal gets screwed by someone who doesn't even wear a uniform


No one got screwed by anybody...and this remark is way off-line for someone who obviously just overheard *SOME* of the conversation and was not aware of the circumstances. 


> (But probably has oodles of kit in her basement or all her friends who are into hunting are kitted out)


And, this remark. Whoah. Are you actually intimating that my staff are comitting offenses on a public forum? I highly suggest that you may want to PM me with your grounds for this public accusation....


> Not only this, I also saw, as I have before, the civvies behind the counter seem to wield the power over the uniformed types


Hmmm...seeing as how the front counter supervisor IS a civilian who IS a MCpl equivelant and paid as such, I see no problem with this....and neither do the military pers who work the counter...stay within your arcs.


> I don't know how the Army SupTechs get through the day having to take some civvy's B.S time and again.


Probably the same way some troops make it through the day after putting up with some "BS" from their MCpls? Once again you're way off arc...because you obviously only consider it BS because it's coming from a civy and had no clue that that Civy was the very same as a MCpl. Sometimes we do tend to mess up when people are in civvies and we can't tell what rank they are don't we?  


> I'd snap.


Not if you worked at Clothing Stores...because morale...au contraire to your 'expert' opinion happens to be excellent over there and they all (civys included) go out of their way to help people out. And then....you'd actually know the facts...
  


> Rant over and done with, the genuine question is WHY are there even civvies in there anyway?  Give them a mop, broom and squeegee and designate a couple of buildings on base and let them go to town.  Why are they allowed to hold a position that even though they hold no rank, they still seem to be above junior NCM's in the chain of command?  Lastly, why do they try to keep a ridiculous grip on kit they're not entitled to wear because they didn't have the parts to go to Basic and become a legitimate storesman?  If they want the job, then they should have to go through the proper process of Recruit School, Trade Qualification training, then assigned to a Suppy Depot.


You know what? I'm not going to justify my staff's existance to the likes of you. You have ranted now about a situation of which you knew "some" of what you heard. People like you are what gives customers a bad name. Thank god 99.999% don't have the attitude that you seem to. You obviously have no idea how the civilian workforce is structured. They do have a rank structure au contraire to your 'expert opinion' once again. Once again...you are very much WAY OUT of your arcs, and, quite frankly, I find your comments offensive. And, BTW, that civy female that you are bitching about served in the CF as a Sup Tech for 17 years, and I'm sure she'd love to have you tell her she "ain't got the parts." 


> Whew........ Well, that feels better


Good, glad it's off your chest....

time for me to go have my daily anneurism about unqualified SMEs at the front counter passing their erroneous judgements.


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## armyvern (24 Jan 2006)

Daidalous said:
			
		

> While some are just a waste of space that have no desire to learn what they are doing and just want the $18/hr and wave the union book around.  i will not name names, but ArmyVern know who I am talking about


Fortunatly I have been out of XXX location...and they did  not follow me to Clothing in Gagetown!!  ;D


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## Daidalous (24 Jan 2006)

lucky you


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## Glorified Ape (25 Jan 2006)

armyvern said:
			
		

> Hmmm...seeing as how the front counter supervisor IS a civilian who IS a MCpl equivelant and paid as such



Whoaaaaa... what? I didn't think the civilians that worked at the QM (or in other areas) actually held any authority over the CF members they work with. Kind of disturbing.


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## flashman (25 Jan 2006)

Civilian DND employees holding senior position to CF members is nothing unusual, new, or remarkable.  It is common in bases, staff positions, etc.  Examples are too numerous to list, what can I say but it's nothing out of the ordinary at all.  The civil service has grades just like the military does. 

As to why hire a civvy as a storesman?  Simple; it's cheaper and faster to get them working and there's no lengthy training requirement to complete first.  Why clog up an already overtaxed indiv training system to churn out more storesman, when we desperately need combat arms soldiers?  That storesman can do their job the same regardless of whether or not they know cam and concealment, how to fire a C7, march, etc. 

I have had the benefit of seeing the "customer service" world from both sides; when I was solely on the taking end I was convinced evey bin rat was out to do their best to keep any serivcable kit from escaping into the field where it would get dirty.  Now that I have personally seen the other side and how they work, well, my perspective has changed.  People on the customer side still complain they are never open long enough, they can't get an appointment, etc... I would have agreed in the past, but now I've seen the efforts clothing stores went to to maintain late evening hours two days a week to serve their Res customer base.  I've seen them make efforts to distr kit to units so indivs don't have to come in and draw the latest CTS item one at a time.  I've seen them coming into work with a Timmie's at 0730, besause they were already having a coffe break from showing up at 0500hrs to do stocktaking, to maintain some service later in the day rather than shutting down entirely. 

Long story short, I have yet to meet a storesman who wants to do anything but serve the customer and make sure you have the kit you need.  You may not get it, you may not be happy, and you may not have everything you require, but that has never been the fault of the guy on the other side of the counter in my experience.  The impression on the end user isn't always a good one; all I care about is that I have my field kit, and not the multitude of reasons why I don't.  But it's not the fault of the storesman.


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## AmmoTech90 (25 Jan 2006)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> Whoaaaaa... what? I didn't think the civilians that worked at the QM *(or in other areas)* actually held any authority over the CF members they work with. Kind of disturbing.



Last time I checked the MND was a civvy  

It's much rarer (pretty much to the point of non-existence) in the combat arms but civilians hold supervisor positions all throughout the Department of National Defence.  They manage both military and civilian pers, right up to the point of writing PERs.  They can be the equivalent of CO's of units (CFADs Bedford and Rocky Point come to mind), or the supervisor of a R&D section in Supply.  Depending on the level of competence, and more importantly, dedication the military members PER may be significantly guided by the next higher military member in the CoC.


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## armyvern (25 Jan 2006)

And they are also allowed into the CF Messes and Institutes that co-incide with their appropriate rank level equivelant.

For example, our Customer Services Officer (CSO) here in Gagetown is a civilian gentleman, a Capt equivelant, and he is a member of the Officer's Mess. The same as our ADPO, same rank equivelant, same Mess.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Jan 2006)

> For example, our Customer Services Officer (CSO) here in Gagetown is a civilian gentleman, a Capt equivelant, and he is a member of the Officer's Mess. The same as our ADPO, same rank equivelant, same Mess.



Are civilians required then to pay mess dues?


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## armyvern (25 Jan 2006)

Well, isn't this interesting. I have re-read reccecrewman's original post and it would seem that he is located in Petawawa.

So pretty flukey eh? Apparently, their Clothing Stores is experiencing the same shortfalls we are here in Gagetown. I guess that means the problem is not THE clothing Stores you visit but with the fact that these critical shortfalls of items are being experienced CF-wide (explains the messages being sent out).

Same points though, being once in Pet myself, they also have a civilian supervisors in Clothing Stores.


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## armyvern (25 Jan 2006)

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> Are civilians required then to pay mess dues?


I believe that they have the "option" of being a Mess Member. I know that the two pers I mentionned below pay their Mess Dues and attend all the functions of the Mess, ie the "At-Homes."


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## medicineman (25 Jan 2006)

Vern,

If it makes you feel any better, I can say I haven't yet had a problem with any of your stores perosnnel, millitary or civilian.  In fact, as noted in another post elsewhere, I've found the staff in Base Supply here, be them Clothing, MSA or elsewhere to be unbelievably helpful.  And that was before I was a Sgt  ;D

MM


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## NL_engineer (25 Jan 2006)

Vern,

I have only had problems with one civi at clothing stores in Gagetown no description, but I think he/she is a supervisor.

Last summer when I went to exchange a pair of combat pants, the person above told me that there were none my size in stock (I would not have a problem with it but he/she never looked at size). So I got back in the line and one of the other civvies exchanged them for me. 

The same thing had happend to me a few times there, and from talking with others they have had similar experiences.


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## armyvern (25 Jan 2006)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Vern,
> 
> If it makes you feel any better, I can say I haven't yet had a problem with any of your stores perosnnel, millitary or civilian.  In fact, as noted in another post elsewhere, I've found the staff in Base Supply here, be them Clothing, MSA or elsewhere to be unbelievably helpful.  And that was before I was a Sgt  ;D
> MM


Thanks MM. And aren't you the same pers that I sent all the scrap clothing over to so that you could cut it off people??


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## armyvern (25 Jan 2006)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> Vern,
> I have only had problems with one civi at clothing stores in Gagetown no description, but I think he/she is a supervisor.


Yep *he* would be, no need to elaborate. 


			
				NL_engineer said:
			
		

> Last summer when I went to exchange a pair of combat pants, the person above told me that there were none my size in stock (I would not have a problem with it but he/she never looked at size). So I got back in the line and one of the other civvies exchanged them for me.


Ok...look at it from our side...we go in the bins for pants 50 or 60 times a day. We know whether the box has got stock or not. And the truck from Montreal to replenish us...only comes on Thursdays. So if I don't have any on Monday, I won't have any until at least Thursday afternoon.
Most of us Sup Techs don't need to ask your size either...we can tell by looking at you...it's our jobs. And if he's at the computer....he doesn't need to ask your size...it's showing up on his screen.

Hmmm...Last summer, there was a National restriction on exchanges in effect on cadpat(Feb til Oct) due to critical shortages of cadpat for deploying personnel while the contractor fixed the "excessive fade" problem. This was also published in AIG messages and Routine Orders. Unless you and the guys you know who got them exchanged were deploying....guess what? You lucked out.

Restrictions get placed on items for a reason. That's why I try to stress to my pers, to use their common sense, but follow the directives/messages/restrictions in place. The complaints and upset customers are kept to a minimum, because no one gets treated differently. It is something Clothing hears quite a bit of "well so and so got one, Why can't I?"


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## armyvern (25 Jan 2006)

Just wanted to advise, in all fairness, that reccecrewman has PMd me and to thank him for it.

Now just wait til my evil counterparts do your doc verification!!  > Just kidding.  ;D


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## medicineman (25 Jan 2006)

The very same.

MM


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## Daidalous (27 Jan 2006)

Here is a question for you Vern. I think I know the answer but.   Civvies get no more training than what they are taught from the section they are in correct?


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## reccecrewman (27 Jan 2006)

And thank-you Armyvern for taking the time to answer my question, your candor is appreciated as is your insight on the Supply world.

Regards


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## Glorified Ape (27 Jan 2006)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Last time I checked the MND was a civvy
> 
> It's much rarer (pretty much to the point of non-existence) in the combat arms but civilians hold supervisor positions all throughout the Department of National Defence.  They manage both military and civilian pers, right up to the point of writing PERs.  They can be the equivalent of CO's of units (CFADs Bedford and Rocky Point come to mind), or the supervisor of a R&D section in Supply.  Depending on the level of competence, and more importantly, dedication the military members PER may be significantly guided by the next higher military member in the CoC.



Yes, I'm aware that the M/DND is civilian, what I was referring to are things like the QM, base administrative offices, etc. It just seems strange to me that military members would be held to account and "led" (at lower levels within the CF structure) by civilians. I guess it's just a respect thing - I'd have a hard time respecting the authority of someone, in a military work environment, that hadn't even done basic training. PSP staff even bug the crap out of me when they get all high-and-mighty (it was in St. Jean so I can't/won't speak of PSP staff in general and it wasn't all the staff, just a couple). I have no problem taking c--K from those with legitimate military authority, but I can't imagine it from some low-level civi bureaucrat working the BOR or what have you. 

I'm glad to hear they're not as common in the combat arms. As you said, I'm sure there are advantages to be gleaned from the practice, it just tickles me the wrong way. I can understand the need for employing civilian specialists in areas where we don't/can't recruit enough or where recruitment isn't practical (such as if we only need one or two of them), but I don't think a QM supervisor or BOR clerk are positions that can't be filled from within the CF. Of course, I'm a noob so what do I know. ;D


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## Daidalous (28 Jan 2006)

From my experience ST 5 or civvy supervisors are generally retired military or people who have worked long and hard to be there.  I do not mind having a civvy for a boss, I found they usually give a rats ass about unit politics and advancing there own carear and care more about getting the job done.


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## armyvern (28 Jan 2006)

Generally, 

Amongst the CSS trades there are distinct advantages to having DND Civilian employees in supervisory roles. This provides for 'continuity.' In the Supply trade we have a huge array of technical jobs which must be performed and many different sections which involve specialized training. IE pers MUST be Hazmat qualified to work in XXX section. But pers must have CTAT/ITAR quals to work in another section. Or PWGSC/Treasury Board quals to work in procurement section etc etc etc. If all mil Sup Techs had ALL the quals required to work in ALL Supply functions....we'd spend our entire career on course; we'd in essence be the 'experts' at everything....and nothing.
Mil Sup Techs receive general instruction in all sections during their QL3s/4s but do not receive the specialized trg for all sections. Rather...if a Mil Sup Tech is moved into the procurement cell, they then receive the Section 34/FMAS/PWGSC orientated training/courses that are required to be proficient in procurement. If they are moved to POL etc they then are sent on courses to receive their required control, packaging, transport of dangerous goods certification courses from Borden. Same with radiation specific training, or NBC decontamination trg, or LB quals. Mil sup techs move from section to section throughout their careers and civilains tend not to do this. That being said, the civilains in a specific section, are qualified to work in that particular section and are sent on the required courses for that section....ie hazmat courses etc. As the civvies tend to also have prolonged experience and the training courses for their particular section...they also tend to be the SME within it.

Let us not forget that the deployment ratio for CSS trades tends to be somewhat higher than that of combat arms trades (not in all instances). IE there are Sup tech, RMS, Sigs, medics on every roto of every tour in every mission area. While combat arms trades tend to deploy as a formed Unit only when their specific Unit deploys. I have many more tours than my 031 husband. By having a qualified civilian working a "support" role in Canada....a Mil Sup Tech is made available for deployment. 

If a civilian wants to move sections or be upgraded in their rank structure, they go through a 'competition' process if they meet the pre-requisites. This competion is a series of written and hands-on exams that determines their ability and eligibilty to perform in the other section or at the next rank level. They are then listed in order of placement based on the outcome of this competition. If they rank #1, they get the new job/appointment and then receive the necessary courses/quals they do not already have....much the same as our Mil pers do when moved/promoted.

This also explains why you phone Supply to ask a question and the Sup Tech (civ or mil) says...I'm going to transfer your call to etc etc... If we haven't ever worked the specific section (or desk within a section) to which your question refers....we can't answer it. That'd be like asking someone who isn't LAV qualified to answer your "technical expertize" question about a LAV. My father retired as a Mil Sup Tech with 33 years in, he never worked in the R&D section or at clothing stores...we have upwards of 20 specialized areas within our MOC and we can't all be experts in all areas....therefore the civilian continuity and supervisors.


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## loyalist (28 Jan 2006)

Wow, it's almost like some mil supply techs are hard to work with, and some civilians...

I fail to see where the split is along the mil/civ lines. It has more to do with the people themselves...some people, either civvie or military just live to be dicks.

Given that the forces are straining for people and kit right now, having civilians fill _a select group_ of roles within the CF is probably a good thing.


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## armyvern (28 Jan 2006)

loyalist said:
			
		

> Wow, it's almost like some mil supply techs are hard to work with, and some civilians...


I agree, generally you're either an *** or you're not. The uniform, or lack of it, nor the cap badge on the beret matter.


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