# History of removing headdress in the Mess



## Arctic Acorn (10 Mar 2004)

Had something interesting happen the other day...

Yesterday I was in our mess chatting with a master jack buddy of mine, when a civilian contractor came waltzing in wearing his touque. They‘re doing some work underneath the building and we‘re letting them into the mess to take their breaks and to warm up, as it‘s still about 30 below outside up here. 

So, my buddy tell the guy to take his hat off, please. The guy was being a real jerk*** about it, and after a bit of a one-sided arguement with my buddy, we kicked him out of the mess. If he refuses to respect the rules, he won‘t enjoy the privilege. 

Anyway, this got me to thinking...where does the tradition of removing your headdress in the mess come from? Is it as simple as just paying respect, or is there a story behind it? I‘m hoping someone out there can fill me in.

Thanks!


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## RCA (10 Mar 2004)

The reigning Monarch‘s picture always hangs in a mess. Sign of respect...


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Mar 2004)

The picture should also be on the north wall, with nothing mounted even or higher than the picture.


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## Tpr.Orange (10 Mar 2004)

they got it straight respect and good for you for giving him the boot


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## HERC (10 Mar 2004)

What is the significance of mounting the picture on the North wall?


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## 1feral1 (10 Mar 2004)

Good on ya for punting this bloke out! Its about our customs and traditions, which we must endure to keep alive. Either obey em, or GTF out!

Messes are a great place for tradition. I have spent many mess dinners with a busting bladder (many SNCOs and officers can relate to this -hehe), not being allowed to leave the table. Many kangaroo courts afterwords, fined with shots of port or whisky and silly mess games passed on from generation to generation.

Pretty much I after every mess dinner, I get my mess kit dry cleaned.

Quick story - Not long after I arrived in Australia, I was at my 1st mess dinner at my new unit.

During  mess games, after a good surf and turf meal, I was asked to tell a joke or pay the fine of 5 shots of port.

So I aggressivly leaped upon the long row of tables, picked up a candleobra, with 4 candles burning, paced up and down on top of the tables with over 100 SNCOs and officers seated, dodging glasses of port and wine, menues, and cameras. I told my joke, half pi_$$ed, and dripping candle wax everywhere, staggering on these tabletops, trying to keep my balance. many officers sitting gobsmacked, as i dripped wax on or near them.

Many wine carafs full of warm yellow fliud too!

I dont remember the joke, but it was long and, yes, rude and we all broke into laughter. It was one occasions like this I was dubbed the ‘lumberjack from ****‘.

I had to scratch the wax off my tunic and trousers, and I was so hung over the next day.

But on the sad side, mess life is NOT what it was 10yrs ago, and not the social place to be. I rarely pop in for a drink, unless something is planned. Our mess is usually dead, and is barely afloat. Our mess even stocks Canadian Club and ‘cola‘ premixes to keep me happy! Nothing beats a CC and coke, or a cold Blue.

Regards,

Wes


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## Spr.Earl (10 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Herc:
> [qb] What is the significance of mounting the picture on the North wall? [/qb]


So she can look over her Realm.
Believe it or not.


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## Arctic Acorn (11 Mar 2004)

Thanks for the reponses guys. I figured it was something simple, but Googling it got me nowhere. I figured the peanut gallery would know...   

Cheers,

Fellow Peanut


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Mar 2004)

When we had web belts as part of Garrison Dress, the belts were always removed.  My understanding was because a web belt technically constitutes "field gear" which is a nono inside a mess.


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## Spr.Earl (27 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] When we had web belts as part of Garrison Dress, the belts were always removed.  My understanding was because a web belt technically constitutes "field gear" which is a nono inside a mess. [/qb]


Same as no weapon‘s allowed in the mess.

Many many many moon‘s ago when I was with 6Fd Sqn in N.Van.
I was Snr Mess Member and it was Nov.11th and the Queen‘s Cowboy‘s were pissing it up and still had their side arm‘s on in Serge

When I asked them to put their weapon‘s behind the bar or leave (quoting QRNO‘S).Only one did and I unloaded his 38 and put behind the bar and no sweat.
To this day in N.Van no Mountie goes into the Mess or any Legion with a his/her weapon because of what I did that day.
Oh did it cause a stink     

Remember that NO ONE IS ALLOWED IN THE MESS WITH A WEAPON!!


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## Art Johnson (29 Mar 2004)

How about the Orderly Officer and the Orderly Sergeant?


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## Spr.Earl (29 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Art Johnson:
> [qb] How about the Orderly Officer and the Orderly Sergeant? [/qb]


Yes they are,also M.P.‘s,RCMP or other Police while accompanied by the M.P.‘s and on Official business.Other wise no arm‘s are allowed at all.


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## Michael Dorosh (29 Mar 2004)

The Orderly Officer and Sergeant also get to keep their hats on, being "on duty".  Ditto the Duty NCO.


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## Spr.Earl (29 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb] The Orderly Officer and Sergeant also get to keep their hats on, being "on duty".  Ditto the Duty NCO. [/qb]


True,but in my experience they have always removed their head dress and walk about with it in their hand‘s.


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## portcullisguy (29 Mar 2004)

The MPs at the Meaf don‘t remove their headdress when on duty, doing their routine ... whatever it is they do.

I might be wrong but I don‘t think the lads in Meaford get up to too much trouble on base, it‘s far too small.  Maybe in the summers when the courses are running...


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## 1feral1 (29 Mar 2004)

Personnel on ‘duty‘ such as the MPs or the Duty CPL, Duty SGT or Duty Offr will wear their headress in the mess or anytwhere else required. IE, checking ID, or doing rounds in their  own ‘tour of duty‘.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Spr.Earl (29 Mar 2004)

> Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
> [qb] Personnel on ‘duty‘ such as the MPs or the Duty CPL, Duty SGT or Duty Offr will wear their headdress in the mess or anywhere else required. IE, checking ID, or doing rounds in their  own ‘tour of duty‘.
> 
> Cheers,
> ...


Wes in my 28 the only time I‘ve seen the O/Cpl.,O/O etc wear their head dress is when the Mess has had a function and load‘s of Snivies are about or at a School other wise in a normal mess the remove their head dress and even the Meat Head‘s do or did do.


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## chrisf (29 Mar 2004)

As it was put to me, you‘re allowed to wear your headress in the mess if you‘re enforcing somthing... so the MPs checking ID would fall under this category, or anyone else enforcing any military or civillian law.


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## Canadian Patriot (29 Mar 2004)

I was told that the mess is a tribute to the dead of your unit. Removing your headress is a sign of respect to the soldiers of your unit who have died.


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## Art Johnson (29 Mar 2004)

Re Sapper Earl‘s reply most duty personel will remove their head dress when entering a mess. At least that was the drill when I was in the Army many years ago. Many of the things we do may seem old fashioned but that is what seperates us from civilians.


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## NavyBob (25 Aug 2005)

Good day all. After much browsing through many a regulation, I have failed to come up with my desired answer, so I am turning to all of you knowledgable folk for my answer! The reason I ask here is because this issue was discussed in another post and many people seemed to know what they were talking about.

The question has two parts. One: Where is it actually written that one shall remove their headress in the mess? Two: Does this regulation actually state that the reason for removing the headdress is because of the image of the Queen?

I have searched high and low on google, the DIN (can you find anything in th DIN? their search engine is terrible!), I've even gone right into QR&O's and DAOD's and I can't actually find it in writing anywhere. I suspect that if it is in writing, it may be buried in British texts that date back a few hundred years. While it is accepted that one removes their headdress because of the likeness of Her Majesty, our wardroom is curious as to where this is actually written, if at all. I suspect that many messes have it written into their constitution, and this may be the only written version of this tradition.


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## Springroll (25 Aug 2005)

This may help:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3230.0.html


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## NavyBob (25 Aug 2005)

That's the other thread I read on the topic. While they discuss and generally agree that it's out of respect for the Queen, there are still no references to any actual regulation   I'm trying to find this for my boss who is a history major and as such, wants to see it in writing. It's more out of curiousity than anything. We don't disagree with the tradition, nor do we contest it. We just want to see where it's written.


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## George Wallace (25 Aug 2005)

You may try getting a copy of:

 CUSOMS AND TRADITIONS OF THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES by E.C. Russell;    ISBN: 0-88879-026-0.


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## geo (25 Aug 2005)

Customs & traditions of the CME (Red book) - incl sound tracks for Wings & Hurrah for CRE

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admie/dgcps/CME_customs_e.htm


Hmmm.... still lokin for hat rule - must be in Dress manual - stand by............


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## Gunner98 (25 Aug 2005)

You are unlikely to find a regulation regarding mess etiquette.  The prohibition on parkas, raincoats, headdress and weapons in the mess is an etiquette issue that is taught through customs and traditions lectures.  IMHO, it does have anything to do with the Queen (as the many foreign non-Commonwealth countries have similar etiquette.)  IMHO, it is moreso that everyone in a mess is there by invitation of the mess manager/chief cook.  This invitation can be revoked and service refused for personnel who do not adhere to the etiquette - headdress, dirty hands, eating with your dirty hands, slurping your soup etc.

A mess constitution/bylaws is made of many agreed upon rules, customs and traditions.  The tradition of buying a round for the house if you violate etiquette is not enforceable other than by peer pressure.

Did your mother or grandmother let you wear your baseball/cowboy hat at the dinner table?

You may well remember the Legions discussion/deliberations concerning turbans and headress in the Legion halls!  See Hansard transcript at:
http://www.legis.gov.bc.ca/hansard/35th3rd/h0602pm.htm


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## Michael OLeary (25 Aug 2005)

THE GUIDE, A Manual for the Canadian Militia (Infantry)
compiled by Major-General Sir William D. Otter, K.C.B, C.V.O.
1914 edition



> No officer entering the ante-room before dinner (i.e., after the sounding of the first bugle) nor after dinner, should wear vhis headdress.


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## AmmoTech90 (25 Aug 2005)

I cannot access it from where I am, but I believe that the dress regs state that head dress will be removed in "canteens".  Do a search through the dress regs for canteen and you should find it.  Seeing as one of the functions of a mess emulates that of a canteen (refreshment) that reg could cover the order portion of taking off your hat.


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## Lima_Oscar (25 Aug 2005)

Canadian Forces Dress Instructions A-AD-265-000/AG-001 Wear of Headdress:


> 9. Messes and Canteens. Personnel who avail themselves of the privileges offered by a mess or canteen shall remove headdress on entering the premises.   Except for mess and canteen staff, those entering for the purpose of performing a duty or an inspection, or those entering for the purpose of maintaining or enforcing discipline, shall not normally remove headdress.


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## medicineman (25 Aug 2005)

I couldn't find anything in dress regs beyond using "formal rules of ettiquette" or "civilian standards of same" or religious standards of various groups.   Of course there are formal military regulations which may go beyond those standard, but are situalnally dependant.

MM


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## NavyBob (25 Aug 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> Customs & traditions of the CME (Red book) - incl sound tracks for Wings & Hurrah for CRE
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca/admie/dgcps/CME_customs_e.htm
> 
> ...



I came accross that CME book several times in my searches. I'd say it's one of the best pieces of literature I've seen produced on Customs, tradition and orders of dress in the entire CF.


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## NavComm (25 Aug 2005)

Thank you, because as a new reservist, I oft times forget to remove my headdress when entering the mess. I wasn't sure, when I returned from bmq and was quickly assigned to Op Valour (Smokey Smith funeral) if I should remove headdress when entering the garrison or the mess.

No one said "remove your beret" when I entered the garrison but I sure got a few good clues to do it when I entered the mess! I want to personally thank those soldiers who took it upon themselves to remind an ordinary seaman to 'take off your cap' because it's not instilled in you at basic.


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## MCpl Burtoo (29 Aug 2005)

http://www.lacombelegion.com/myth.html

Here is a link for the Locmbe Legion, Myths / Facts page. At the very bottom of the page is this Myth / Fact about the removal of headdress in the Legion......

MYTH
Some Legion Branches are hypocrites because they do not allow hats in their facilities. 

FACT
The removal of hats is a visible sign of respect to the memory of those who protected the freedom we enjoy today. 

This humble act is a custom and tradition established years ago to remind us of courtesies to others. 
The decision to remove headdress is made by the individual Branch. 

When I was a young soldier I was told it was out of respect to remove your headdress in the mess because of the Queen's Photo...but this did not seem right as in the  Drill Halls and even in the  Head Sheds (HQ Buildings),  the Queen's photo hung on the wall. Now I have been in the military for a few years and this is what I now know is true.....

The removal of headdress in the "MESS HALL" is just good manners, as I am sure most of your moms didn't let you eat at the dinner table with a hat on!

The removal of headdress in the " DRINKING MESS" is out of respect . The Legion wanted a silent way, a different way to show the respect to the fallen and came up with removal of headdress that was adopted by our "Drinking Mess" establishments in the CF.

Just my 2 cents......


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## TCBF (29 Aug 2005)

I recall, back in 1971 as a 16 year old Private, entering the Men's Canteen (Wet), coming to attention, saluting the picture of the Queen (it was on the north wall, come to think of it), and - if not in a kilt - removing my web belt and balmoral.  I was told the the belts had to come off because regimental brass buckles at the end of a 26 inch belt make DEADLY weapons in a brawl.   Most of you will have seen regimental battledress belt buckes.  A few of you may even have worn a 26 inch belt.   ;D

 "mess manager/chief cook"  -  have no authority regarding membership.  The chief cook can exert authority in the dining room, but not the rest of the JRC/WSM/Offr's Mess etc.  The Mess manager works with the committee, but the commitee - through their mess constitution and bylaws - controls all SOCIAL access to the mess.

Tom


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Aug 2005)

Forlorn Hope said:
			
		

> http://www.lacombelegion.com/myth.html
> 
> The Legion wanted a silent way, a different way to show the respect to the fallen and came up with removal of headdress that was adopted by our "Drinking Mess" establishments in the CF.



It's a plausible explanation, but I'll bet we were taking hats off in the Mess before the Legion was even established.



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> the picture of the Queen (it was on the north wall, come to think of it)



To overlook her domain, IIRC.


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## Gunner98 (29 Aug 2005)

"The Mess manager works with the committee, but the commitee - through their mess constitution and bylaws - controls all SOCIAL access to the mess." 

I beg to differ - the CO of the Mess has ultimate authority over even the mess committee, its constitution and bylaws.  

Getting good grub or any grub depends on the respect paid to the Chief Cook.

The Legion myth does not account for the same etiquette in other countries.  There were messes long before their were legions.


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## TCBF (30 Aug 2005)

I think you may be confusing Mess with Mess Hall.

The CO signs the constitution, bylaws, and approves the minutes after each mess meeting.  Or not.  These set the membership rules under the CO, but the commitee enforces them.

Tom


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## Spr.Earl (30 Aug 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> I think you may be confusing Mess with Mess Hall.
> 
> 
> The CO signs the constitution, bylaws, and approves the minutes after each mess meeting.   Or not.   These set the membership rules under the CO, but the commitee enforces them.
> ...



Yes Good Queen Bess is always on the North Wall,Why? So she can look over her realm.
Removing your head dress is two fold,for the Queen and those who have gone before us.
As Tom also stated web belts were also removed just because the old web belts were a mean weapon with Regie Brass.Alas these some of these old tradition's are gone,now we are a kinder,nicer Army.(me arse,I hate P.C.  

Been there and have gone through the fights and we ended up getting robbed in our Ranks and the P.M.C. being charged with embezzlement but was found innocent!
But was goes around comes around. 

All in the Militia watch your Mess' !

It's your Mess,the Mess is the last TRADITION we have left,respect this tradition and don't abuse it or we will lose it.

This from a old Sapper of 53,I'm near the end of my Army life but I don't won't you too lose the Mess as the Mess is a place which is your private place with out any Snr Nco or Hosifer bugging you unless you invite them in,the only person's who can walk in unannounced are the Orderly Sgt or Hosifer,but most will knock if they have any respect for the Mess or those you invite into your Mess.

Please don't let this Tradition die,it has died in the Regular Force but don't let it die in the Militia

Keep our Traditions alive.

UBIQUE

CHIMO


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## Gunner98 (30 Aug 2005)

Tom

Forgive me, I come from the day when the mess and mess hall were one and the same at least for the officers.  It is nice that you folks insist on the Queen leading to headdress etiquette but the last time I checked the Germans and Americans are not under her reign and have the same traditions/etiquette.

Spr Earl - people are never found innocent - they are found not guilty usually due to insufficent or unconvinicing evidence or due to a technicality.


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