# CRA 60



## anbeckett (22 Mar 2016)

Hi,

Just wondering if anyone has heard of a case of a mbr successfully extending past CRA 60.

Thx


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## dapaterson (22 Mar 2016)

Only incident I know of was an extension to permit someone to complete post-deployment activities; other than that, the line has been hard and fast.


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## MedCorps (22 Mar 2016)

There is one case in the RCMS that I am aware of... a MED-SPEC (Psychiatrist) was extended to 61 or 62. 

MC


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## jollyjacktar (22 Mar 2016)

Was Prince John not past 60 when he was brought back as CDS to save us all?


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Mar 2016)

My release date was 25 July, my 60th birthday. The extended me til 29 Jul because they screwed up some paperwork. I tried to say that seeing as they extended me once, they could do it again until I was 65. No dice. ;D


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## Rifleman62 (23 Mar 2016)

Same 5 Aug 07. Finally released late Sep, but none of that time counted for service/pension. Just Admin limbo.


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## Pusser (23 Mar 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Was Prince John not past 60 when he was brought back as CDS to save us all?



I don't think so.  If I recall correctly, he was around 57 at the time.  Of course CRA was 55 then, so yes, extensions beyond CRA are possible.  However, having said that, keep in mind that GOFOs serve at HM's pleasure and so can be extended/released at any time.

When CRA was first raised to 60, the word was that with the exception of those with special skills which were in demand at the time, only those personnel with less than 35 years of pensionable service would actually be allowed to stay beyond 55.  Part of the idea was to give those who joined later in life a chance to increase their pensions.  I was certainly led to believe that serving beyond 55 was out of the question for me (i.e. I will have 35 years of service by that point).  I'm not sure where things are now.

I've also been led to believe that if I wish to continue with the Reserve after retiring from the Regular Force (at 55) I have to select CRA 60 prior to that point.  Does anyone have a more definitive answer on this?


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## sarahsmom (23 Mar 2016)

CIC officers, at least those I know of at RCSU (C), can go to 65. Mind you not many of them are full-time except in the summer for cadet camps.


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## technophile (23 Mar 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Was Prince John not past 60 when he was brought back as CDS to save us all?



He was past our CRA 55 when he was brought back.  The loophole being he was enrolled as a CIC officer ( at age 57) , and their CRA was 60 at the time. 

A few CIC officers I know bring up the fact that it is entirely possible ( and has been done ) for a CIC officer to command the CAF, so we should be a little nicer to them.   [Xp


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## Lumber (23 Mar 2016)

technophile said:
			
		

> ...so we should be a little nicer to them.



No.


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## DAA (23 Mar 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I don't think so.  If I recall correctly, he was around 57 at the time.  Of course CRA was 55 then, so yes, extensions beyond CRA are possible.  However, having said that, keep in mind that GOFOs serve at HM's pleasure and so can be extended/released at any time.
> 
> When CRA was first raised to 60, the word was that with the exception of those with special skills which were in demand at the time, only those personnel with less than 35 years of pensionable service would actually be allowed to stay beyond 55.  Part of the idea was to give those who joined later in life a chance to increase their pensions.  I was certainly led to believe that serving beyond 55 was out of the question for me (i.e. I will have 35 years of service by that point).  I'm not sure where things are now.
> 
> I've also been led to believe that if I wish to continue with the Reserve after retiring from the Regular Force (at 55) I have to select CRA 60 prior to that point.  Does anyone have a more definitive answer on this?



MILPERCOM Instr 05/05 should have all the info about requesting a TOS Extension beyond CRA and also how to go about electing CRA 60 for those who are grand-fathered at CRA 55.  I'm pretty sure that to elect CRA 60, this MUST be done prior to reaching 54 years of age.


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## Pusser (23 Mar 2016)

technophile said:
			
		

> He was past our CRA 55 when he was brought back.  The loophole being he was enrolled as a CIC officer ( at age 57) , and their CRA was 60 at the time.
> 
> A few CIC officers I know bring up the fact that it is entirely possible ( and has been done ) for a CIC officer to command the CAF, so we should be a little nicer to them.   [Xp



That's a myth.  As I said before, GOFOs serve at HM's pleasure.  There was no need for any administrative subterfuge.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Mar 2016)

First of all, service beyond CRA is always possible on authorization, as discussed below.

As for Ol' John, both versions are myths. He was never CIC.

What he was, when recalled, was Supplementary Reserve Officer, recalled to duty by order in council of the GG.

Some of you may recall that CRA was different then: CRA for reg. force in those days was 50 as a rule, and up to 55 for GOFO's and CWO's. CRA for Reserve was 55 as a rule, and up to 60 for GOFO's and CWO's. Anything above and beyond required individual authorizations.

JdC was 55 when he retired, but he transferred to the Supp. list, and therefore was still in the zone for Reserve GOFO's when recalled to "active" service, not reinstatement in the Reg Force.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Mar 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> MILPERCOM Instr 05/05 should have all the info about requesting a TOS Extension beyond CRA and also how to go about electing CRA 60 for those who are grand-fathered at CRA 55.  I'm pretty sure that to elect CRA 60, this MUST be done prior to reaching 54 years of age.



Correct. It also requires your current unit COs approval. IIRC.


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## Journeyman (23 Mar 2016)

If it's for the continued joy of being part of the badges & uniforms revolution, I just learned yesterday that CIC Officers can stay until 65.   :nod:


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Mar 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> If it's for the continued joy of being part of the badges & uniforms revolution, I just learned yesterday that CIC Officers can stay until 65.   :nod:



When I mentioned an extension, that's what I was offered. "Come on over to the Cadets. We'll set you up and you can stay til 65."

I respectfully declined. 8)


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## Oldgateboatdriver (23 Mar 2016)

Using the Cadet Instructor List like that is unfair to the Cadets movement. They are entitled to  a very limited number of such officers (yes, all officers, no NCM's position sorry!) based on the number of kids in their cadet corps, which in turn determines the number of position in the cadet movement administrative organization that supports the corps. If you start using those position to retain reg. force personnel longer, it means there are cadet corps or support offices somewhere that go without, when they are already short staffed to start with.  

Though I can see how some staffer who doesn't think things through in Ottawa-wa-wa might think he/she has just found a clever way to retain some highly skilled serviceperson in his/her regular force job without doing the complex paperwork for retention beyond CRA.


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## dapaterson (23 Mar 2016)

No.  COATS has both officer and NCM slots now.  

And CRA election to 60 is a right for all members prior to their 54th birthday - the CO gets no veto.  Retention is a CoC decision.


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## DAA (23 Mar 2016)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Correct. It also requires your current unit COs approval. IIRC.



It requires a "signature" only.   It's a career TOS decision being made by an individual and the signing authority is merely recognizing that you have signed and been briefed on the implications of doing so.   There are no approvals, recommendations, etc, etc.


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## George Wallace (23 Mar 2016)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Using the Cadet Instructor List like that is unfair to the Cadets movement. They are entitled to  a very limited number of such officers (yes, all officers, no NCM's position sorry!) based on the number of kids in their cadet corps, which in turn determines the number of position in the cadet movement administrative organization that supports the corps. If you start using those position to retain reg. force personnel longer, it means there are cadet corps or support offices somewhere that go without, when they are already short staffed to start with.



But it is not a means of retaining Reg Force personnel longer.  It is an option that a Reg Force member, or a Reservist, can make upon RELEASE.  Sort of a means of keeping a bit of "military" in the Cadet movement and not letting it become a "civilian" run version of the Boy Scouts.   [


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## Old Sweat (23 Mar 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> But it is not a means of retaining Reg Force personnel longer.  It is an option that a Reg Force member, or a Reservist, can make upon RELEASE.  Sort of a means of keeping a bit of "military" in the Cadet movement and not letting it become a "civilian" run version of the Boy Scouts.   [



You just jogged my memory, George. In 1955 I went to the World Scout Jamboree at Niagara-on-the-Lake. One of our troop leaders was a young Korea vet and he used to cause considerable consternation to the hierarchy by acting like and treating us like soldiers. The other leaders thought he should have been a cadet instructor, but we loved it.

And odd coincidence, five years later on Phase 1 OCP, I found two of my classmates had been in the same troop at the jamboree. We all made it and are going to meet at our class reunion in May.


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## jollyjacktar (23 Mar 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> It requires a "signature" only.   It's a career TOS decision being made by an individual and the signing authority is merely recognizing that you have signed and been briefed on the implications of doing so.   There are no approvals, recommendations, etc, etc.



Yes, it was easy peasy.  A signature and rubber stamp from the XO, no muss, no fuss.  Over in minutes.   I thought, WTF is all the song and dance for with IPS?


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## RocketRichard (23 Mar 2016)

In my 40's and in the process of applying to re enroll.  Hopefully I don't hit 60 before the application process 'expires'... [


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## Wolseleydog (28 May 2016)

As I ponder submitting a CRA 60 request (I am RegF, 51 years old, with 32 years service, on IPS), I just have a few questions.

Firstly, and most importantly, my understanding is that changing from CRA 55 to CRA 60 has no implications, other than it allows service to age 60.  i.e. I could still get out at 55, or at 35 years of service, or whenever, on exactly the same terms simply by giving my 30 days notice and it would make no difference to anything.  Confirm?

Secondly, and more broadly, if the above is correct, then I am curious about the intent behind this policy.  Why not simply make CRA 60 for everyone?  Why this need to specifically request it?  And why deny it to those who are already 54 years old?  Just curious.


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## jollyjacktar (28 May 2016)

Wolseleydog said:
			
		

> As I ponder submitting a CRA 60 request (I am RegF, 51 years old, with 32 years service, on IPS), I just have a few questions.
> 
> Firstly, and most importantly, my understanding is that changing from CRA 55 to CRA 60 has no implications, other than it allows service to age 60.  i.e. I could still get out at 55, or at 35 years of service, or whenever, on exactly the same terms simply by giving my 30 days notice and it would make no difference to anything.  Confirm?
> 
> Secondly, and more broadly, if the above is correct, then I am curious about the intent behind this policy.  Why not simply make CRA 60 for everyone?  Why this need to specifically request it?  And why deny it to those who are already 54 years old?  Just curious.



On CRA60 now.  You're correct on your first question.  I don't have a clue on your last.


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## Jed (28 May 2016)

Wolseleydog said:
			
		

> As I ponder submitting a CRA 60 request (I am RegF, 51 years old, with 32 years service, on IPS), I just have a few questions.
> 
> Firstly, and most importantly, my understanding is that changing from CRA 55 to CRA 60 has no implications, other than it allows service to age 60.  i.e. I could still get out at 55, or at 35 years of service, or whenever, on exactly the same terms simply by giving my 30 days notice and it would make no difference to anything.  Confirm?
> 
> Secondly, and more broadly, if the above is correct, then I am curious about the intent behind this policy.  Why not simply make CRA 60 for everyone?  Why this need to specifically request it?  And why deny it to those who are already 54 years old?  Just curious.



It probably is a moot point now. However for some, CRA 60 dropped you in a catch 22 box. For example:

Sign up under the old rules at 37 when you need 20 yrs for a pension by CRA is 55.  
New CRA 60 comes in but you need 25 yrs to make it viable but you can only get 22 yrs.
You throw yourself at the mercy of the system but if you want out some time between 55 and 60 you get hit badly under CRA 60 rules.
If you don't sign to go CRA 60 at age 54 it takes an act of God to roll over to PRes to do sometime between 55 and 60.
Hence going to CRA 60 was a problem for only very, very few personnel.


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## CountDC (31 May 2016)

yep - people had to be careful and look at all the implications of electing.  I held off on mine until all the dust settled as it did seem to impact the TOS terms available which could have had pension implications for some if they decided to opt out at 55 after the fact.  I know their was possibilities with mine at the time it came out. We were told then that if we elected CRA60 we were no longer grandfathered and placed in the new 25 year pension plan.  I suspect the no elect after 54 is simply to prevent people waiting until they are almost out the door and then deciding to elect after all the plans are made around them leaving.

Be careful on the 30 days notice - they can hold you to 6 months and it has happened in the past.  Mind you I have also seen them accept less than 2 weeks on one occasion.


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## jollyjacktar (31 May 2016)

When did the dust settle then or when was it all in an uproar?  When I signed on in 2012 I was told that as I was already on IPS it would change nothing whatsoever except that I could serve to 60 as long as I met universality and there was still a need for me in my present trade/rank etc, just as per IPS.  They also said as long as I had my 24 plus a day I could leave just as before without penalty as well if I so chose.  This was from the pay writer who had also taken it ahead of me...???


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## Jed (31 May 2016)

In 2008 the rules were very rigid. Either sign CRA 60 or hit the road at 55. No chance at all of adding a couple of years reg force on the original pension and very, very slim chance of serving P Res Class A or B.


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## jollyjacktar (31 May 2016)

4 years can be a long time with changes to rules.


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## QM (31 May 2016)

A Padre friend of mine (a Priest) was told by his Bishop that he could serve to 65, due to crisis-level shortages of Catholic Priests. I don't know whether Padres of other denominations were offered that, or what the process was for him to obtain authorization to serve that long (he declined the offer, and retired at 55).  That was of course a specific solution to one Trade, presumably advocated by the Chaplain General and approved at the VCDS level, and aimed at a very rare creature (Priests).  Maybe the Surgeon General could seek the same assistance, if he needs it and desires it for a particular trade (Doctors are surely as rare and as hard to come by as Priests). I'd be surprised to see that offer extended to us unwashed masses, lol.

The only risk I've seen from guys opting for CRA 60 is that their plan to ride out their career in a particular job or a particular city was jeopardized once the CM realized the guy had a few more postings in him. A 52- or 53-year old can make the argument to be left alone for another year or two until retirement at 55. However when that 52-year old suddenly has 8 years left to serve, moving is now a more viable option for the CM.


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## jollyjacktar (31 May 2016)

True enough.  I was sent at 54 to Ottawa.


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## PuckChaser (31 May 2016)

That's the issue with a CRA 60 though. Someone who's 52, 35 years of service thinks they can sit somewhere in the same position for 8 years, sometimes in a senior rank (not implying anyone here is that guy). Yes there is a lot of experience there, but at a certain point the ability for younger members who need that position as a stepping stone to more senior positions with much more time left to move up. If I'm going to stay until CRA 60, I will do so with the full expectation I can be moved around like a 23 year old based on the needs of the service balanced with my own personal needs.


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## CountDC (1 Jun 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> When did the dust settle then or when was it all in an uproar?  When I signed on in 2012 I was told that as I was already on IPS it would change nothing whatsoever except that I could serve to 60 as long as I met universality and there was still a need for me in my present trade/rank etc, just as per IPS.  They also said as long as I had my 24 plus a day I could leave just as before without penalty as well if I so chose.  This was from the pay writer who had also taken it ahead of me...???



Prior to electing CRA60 I was on the 20 year or CRA plan, once I signed I then became a member of the 25 or CRA plan so was committed to another 5 years if I wanted to retire with immediate pension and no penalty. 

Anytime they come out with a policy change there is dust to settle as people try to put their own spin on things, generate questions and it all gets sorted with clarifications sent out several times until half the people understand.


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## CountDC (17 Jan 2020)

Good old CRA 60.  I have now started to look into the process for someone to request extension past CRA and am trying to determine if there is a form or if it is a memo the member submits.  Turns out there isn't a whole lot out there apparently.  

Edit - should have mentioned it is for Regular Force.  found some good stuff by the air force in regards to reserves.


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## dapaterson (17 Jan 2020)

Assuming you are at or below the rank of Colonel, the approving authority for your extension would be the Chief of Defence Staff (per QR&O chapter 15).

Therefore, you will need to staff a request to the CDS.  As the individual specifics and rationale for requesting an extension will vary greatly from one person to another, it is difficult to come up with a one size fits all template.  But points should probably include the traditional 5Ws, presumably with a focus on the benefits to the CAF of retention.


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## Old EO Tech (17 Jan 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Assuming you are at or below the rank of Colonel, the approving authority for your extension would be the Chief of Defence Staff (per QR&O chapter 15).
> 
> Therefore, you will need to staff a request to the CDS.  As the individual specifics and rationale for requesting an extension will vary greatly from one person to another, it is difficult to come up with a one size fits all template.  But points should probably include the traditional 5Ws, presumably with a focus on the benefits to the CAF of retention.



Yes the CDS can approve 363 day extensions at a time if it is justified, most I have seen/heard off, are about late entry people that just want to complete 20 years etc


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## ballz (17 Jan 2020)

We just had one of these go in and get approved for an FSA, I'll check my emails.... IIRC it was just a memo requesting it, a valid FORCE test & medical, and the Unit CO needs to write a letter in support...... and then path of flow was Unit direct to Career Manager, Career Manager to DMCA 4, and then DMCA 4 did the rest to get CDS approval. Moved fairly quickly too.


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## ModlrMike (18 Jan 2020)

As someone who's been granted an extension past CRA 60, I can tell you that it's relatively simple to staff. The member requests, the CO recommends, it gets staffed up the chain to the CDS (or in my case CRCN). The member must have a valid medical, and FORCE Test. They must also be fully employable in their occupation. Finally, the request must be made before the member starts their last year of service (ie: while they're 58). My request took about 8 months, but then that's NAVRES. YMMV.

I may be wrong, but I seem to recall hearing that the oldest serving CF mbr last year was 63. That may be no more than rumour mill though.


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## CountDC (20 Jan 2020)

Thanks for the information, everything kept pointing me to air reserve policies for some reason. Really fun doing searches these days.  Sometimes I wish we still had the books.   

Ballz - be really interested in your one, especially if you have a draft memo and CO letter as everyone I am dealing with is FSA.


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## MJP (20 Jan 2020)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Thanks for the information, everything kept pointing me to air reserve policies for some reason. Really fun doing searches these days.  Sometimes I wish we still had the books.
> 
> Ballz - be really interested in your one, especially if you have a draft memo and CO letter as everyone I am dealing with is FSA.



We have a few in the unit I belong too and can confirm the staffing is as Ballz laid out.  If Ballz is unable to supply with drafts drop me a PM


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## CountDC (5 Feb 2020)

Discussed with the CM and turned out for our trade the system is simple.  Mbr does a memo, staff minutes it up the chain (ie supervisor, compt, CO) and sends to the local Trade Advisor.  The Trade Advisor staffs to the CM and the CM does a BN to the CDS.  CO letter is not required, it can be a minute on the request supporting it.  Doesn't mean that the CO cannot do a letter or levels in the chain of command cannot impose it as a requirement.  Div Comd can require a CO letter and that the request pass through him if he wants.


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