# All Things Cuba (Castro, politics, etc.)



## girlfiredup

Castro Rails Against New U.S. Measures 
Sat May 1,10:00 PM ET  

By JOHN RICE, Associated Press Writer 

HAVANA - President Fidel Castro (news - web sites) said Saturday that the country would defend itself "to the last drop of blood," declaring Cuba unafraid of a U.S. measures to change the island‘s four-decade-old socialist system. 

Speaking for nearly two hours before hundreds of thousands of people during the island‘s annual May Day celebration, Castro warned U.S. officials to be "calmer, more sensible, wiser and more intelligent" before the expected release of a report by the U.S. government‘s Commission for a Free Cuba. 

The report is to recommend measures to hasten a democratic transition in Cuba and to provide assistance afterward. Cuban officials have speculated that the recommendations could include military action. 

Alluding to the upcoming report, Castro said plans were under way to "affect the economy and destabilize the country" and talked about "the same old murderous ideas" â â€ an apparent reference at earlier attempts to assassinate him. 

Castro also defended a crackdown on Cuban dissidents recently criticized by the U.N. Human Rights Commission in Geneva. He referred to the dissidents as "mercenaries" in U.S. efforts to topple his government. 

He said the United States should "not shout or complain if Cuba adopts the pertinent measures to punish the mercenaries. ... They should know that we have been generous." 

He said Cuba "will be defended with laws and will be defended with arms when necessary â â€ until the last drop of blood." 

Earlier during the event, Cuba‘s top labor leader said the island‘s workers would resist efforts â â€ even a military attack â â€ to change the island‘s system. 

"We don‘t know what they could invent after these 45 years, in which they after tried just about everything," said Pedro Ross Leal, head of the Cuban Workers Confederation. 

The government estimated that 1 million people, most of them wearing bright red T-shirts, jammed into Havana‘s broad Plaza of the Revolution and adjacent streets for the morning celebration. Many people waved small red-white-and-blue Cuban flags. 

Ross told the crowd that workers were ready "to resist and defeat even a pre-emptive war against Cuba, such as one the United States has perpetuated in Iraq for more than a year." 

Since the United States launched its war on Iraq, Cuban officials have repeatedly expressed concerns that the island could be next. American authorities deny they are planning military action against Cuba. 

In his speech, Castro also defended Cuba‘s human rights record, saying that the disappearances, torture and extrajudicial killings that plague other nations do not exist here. 

Castro bitterly denounced the recent U.N. Human Rights Commission vote, accusing the United States of forcing other nations to support the resolution. 

He said the prison camp for terror suspects at the Guantanamo U.S. Naval Base in the island‘s east is "one of the most grotesque cases of human rights violations." International rights groups have criticized the treatment of more than 600 suspected al-Qaida and Taliban supporters at the camp. 

The U.N. resolution last month, adopted 22-21 with 10 abstentions, said Cuba "should refrain from adopting measures which could jeopardize the fundamental rights, the freedom of expression and the right to due process of its citizens." 

It also said it "deplores the events which occurred last year in Cuba," a reference to the sentencing of 75 dissidents to prison terms ranging from six to 28 years on charges of working with U.S. diplomats to undermine Cuba‘s socialist system.


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## jrhume

Anyone think there aren‘t several, detailed plans in existence for the invasion and capture of Cuba?

But the fact that the plans exist doesn‘t mean anyone has made the political decision to invade Castro‘s paradise.

Of course -- it doesn‘t mean such a decison isn‘t pending.


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## winchable

Does anyone think that realistically, they would go into Cuba?


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## Colin Parkinson

Although I am sure there are plans which some junior major gets to update every year, I don't see any reason to invade. Castro has steadily pissed off everyone who has tried to help him and Cuba and it seems that everyone is just waiting for him to pass on. Both Canada and Mexico, which were long time friends have given up on him and the jailing, abuse of dissident's costs the economy more and more. Only Charez in Venezuela is helping him, mainly to piss off the US. Also he has ordered business people to give up their cars to the government and has stopped many combined business opportunities. He is cutting his own throat. Soon I expect the military and the party to see him as a liability, hopefully he will die soon and they will be able to bury him as a hero and rejoin the world.

The US will have to give up it's claims to lost property and businesses and help the new government join the world. 

So in short:

The military does not have the equipment of money to threaten the US

There does not appear to be any attempts to harbour A-Q terrorist

Castro is on his last legs

No reason to invade, the US just kicks up their feet and puff away on illegal Cuban cigars while awaiting the funeral march


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## casing

I don‘t think they would, barring a major event causing necessity.  Castro is getting pretty old.  The US is likely just going to wait until he kicks off.


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## winchable

Unfortunately, when he does die, that will leave his brother Raul in power.

If anyone is familiar with Raul they will know that he was probably the mastermind behind most of the repression and crackdowns that have taken place in Cuba (in recent history anyway)

On another note, he is still supported by billions of dollars worth of private business ventures from Spain and Europe.
That is one of the reasons I do not believe they will invade; There is alot of European money tied up in Cuba.

He is losing support in the region though that is correct.


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## Danjanou

Che remember there is no guarantee that lil brother Raoul will take over. Fidel has in the last couple of "elections" (One man, one vote, one party, one choice, once) brought a few moderates into the inner circle and is most likely grooming one or more of them as possible successors.

If that is the case and Raoul has a problem with it, Castro is ruthless enough to have his  brother and comrade from the mountains dealt with correct?

Remember he, Raoul and your namesake Ernesto consolidated power in 1959 and all the other "leaders" of the revolution and field commanders died soon after. 

I‘ll even argue that Castro had a hand in Che getting capped although from a distance. Sending him on missions to Africa and later South America practically ensured it. Better a dead martyr than a live rival. 

There‘s also the case of Col. Ochos the Angola war hero shot for drug dealing after a secret trial. Another potential rival dealt with and  alittle embarrasment swept away.

Don‘t think the Yanks are not aware of this. The absolute worst things would to invade. That would get all of Cuba behind Castro, and unlike the Iraqui the Cuban Army can and would fight.

As for this latest little outburst. He was a about due for another one. He likes to hear the sound of his own voice, and has been out of the international limelight for a bit. Besides the speech was for the Companeros probably to remind them who‘s still boss. I wouldn‘t be surprised if we see some new round of crackdowns and/or shortages annnounced soon.


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## winchable

Despite Fidel being fairly Machiavellian in his power holdings, I don‘t know if he would have Raoul capped in order to get his choice for successor in power.

Castro certainly had a hand in getting El Che sent off, but really only by not stopping him. Che was wrong about Bolivia‘s readiness for revolution, and I would say all sources pointing to his death being mostly his own **** fault. For all of the things I admire about Che, the side effects of those was his hot headed arrogance.

With Camilo Cienfuegos I‘d say it is almost certain that the "mysterious" plane crash is much less than mysterious, in other words Fidel‘s doing, but to a much greater extent than he had in Che‘s death.

Where was I..OH yeah.
You are absolutely right; Were the Americans to invade Cuba it would reinforce everything Cubans have been taught to believe about the Americans through propaganda, schooling etc. 
If anything this latest action by America is just to keep Fidel on his toes "We haven‘t forgotten about you" not a confirmation of the invasion.

If you want to see real crackdowns, wait until Grandpa passes on, like I said, I honestly believe that Raoul will make Fidel seem like a lamb.


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## Danjanou

Nah all you have to do is keep the Havana Club and pretty jinteras flowing at the bar on the top floor of the Hotel Santiago in Santiago de Cuba, where lil brother hangs about in his pretty uniform and shiny medals entertaining foreign investors and he‘ll have no time for crackdowns.

We agree on Cienfuegos, but you forgot Castro did have Morgan the gringo commander in the Escambrays shot.  

I‘d also put part of the problem with Che is that he really was a poor tactical commander. He got lost in the Escambrays and had to be saved from a Batista ambush by Morgans column (that ain‘t in the official history) and Mike Hoare made him look like an idiot in the Congo.

Hmmm I wonder if DGI lurks on this thread. May want to rething my next trip down there. Ah well BKK has betty nightlife.


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## winchable

That‘s a good point about Raul, going the way of so many other LATAM Dictators, of course most of them were US backed.

I‘d have Morgan shot; Who trusts a Gringo anyhow?    Honestly I‘d say anybody Castro had capped to get into power fits well within the ethics of politics, dead serious. That would be completely unethical in Western politics today, but in the jungles of Cuba where a man is planning to take Absolute power I‘d say that action is right on par.
Hey I never said they were really (/B)good(/B) men!

He was a poor tactition, but I think his definition of guerilla warfare had little room for tactics (Wierd eh) and due to his deep philosophic nature, he tended to focus on the people he was trying to win over rather then the people who were trying to kill him.
I suppose someone had to do it, of course it was probably his charisma and ability to win over people that made him a prime target on Fidel‘s List.


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## brin11

How old is Fidel‘s brother?


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## winchable

Brin; Raul is 73 years old, roughly.
So it is entirely possible he‘ll kick before Fidel.
He‘s definetly a "Hawk" though.

There are many people in line behind the Castro‘s, So the government will not be going anywhere for a while (assuming the US won‘t invade) As Danjanou said they are most likely grooming more moderate upper level politicans for power as we speak.

If the US doesn‘t give up property claims, the Cubans will never give up and join the rest of the world. They will never relegate themselves to Banana republic citizens(Guatemala etc.) they‘re proud, proud people. They might not like Grandpa in charge, but my guess is they would like it even less if they were under the control of a business gringo from the US. That is with the exception of the Cuban Americans making a stink in Miami, and that is understandable, next to the Private American Businesses they lost the most land to the revolution.


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## winchable

Not sure I follow what you‘re saying Maj


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## Colin Parkinson

Not an expert, but I suspect that the land dealings that were done with the previous government and the US interest might not hold up to well under the spot light. Did the US have an anti-corruption law prior to Castro takeover? If so, the proof of paying bribes might make the land deals unlawfully.  What the US would gain from pushing this line is limited, they would get far more gain by bringing a new Cuba under the fold and helping their economy. 

If the US did persist, the new Cuban government could give them the land back and then nail them with environmental cleanup costs or reduce their value by changing the zoning or just make it to much of a hassle. How many of the companies who held land are still around? Did the United Fruit Company hold land there? I sure the Mafia would like to get their casinos back!


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## winchable

The united Fruit Company (Now Chiquita I believe) The Mafia owned alot of land under Batista (Alot more then Is generally thought) and Firestone tires, were some big ones. There were also minor sugar companies etc. That don‘t exist anymore, or merged into others.

I think perhaps the only land that could reasonably be expected to be returned to the pre-revolution owners, would be the land owned by the Cuban-American families now living in Miami.


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## Danjanou

You know Sherwood you‘re right there is a moral right regarding appropriated land in Cuba. Especially that belonging to the elite and intelligentsia that fled to Miami in 1959-60.

As a Canadian who has done business in Cuba in the past and probably will do so again in the future, I would be happy to assist you with efforts in aiding those persons get some financial compensation.

One thing before we start on it you wouldn‘t mind helping me get finacial compensation for the land and property stolen from my family in eastern Pennsylvania when they were burned out and forced to flee as a result of being on the losing side in a popular uprising/revolution/civil war circa 1776-84 would you?

I mean after all the same principles apply right? And there‘s no statute of limitations on these matters is there.


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## Brad Sallows

I would not assume that just because those lined up behind Castro are deemed "loyalists" that the transition of power upon the death or infirmity of Castro will be smooth.  It is entirely possible that several of the "loyalists" have very firm and mutually exclusive ideas about who should succeed Castro.

It would be silly for the US to not have a contingency plan to deal with instability or to seize an opportunity for a pro-US regime to be installed.


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## Colin Parkinson

In regards to confiscated property, there seem to be two issues

1.	Property seized by the state from large US based companies at the beginning of the revolution and made into national property
2.	Land seized by the state/party since the initial takeover from people who either opposed the government or fled into exile

I suspect that a new Cuban government would try to show that the large companies either left voluntarily (in a purely legal sense) or that they had obtained the properties unlawfully or a fraction of their value in the first place. They could also argue that the companies had exploited the workers and perhaps go after them in the US courts .

Regarding land seized by the state/party from people perceived to be â Å“enemiesâ ? of the current regime. The new government would likely have to set up a commission to hear appeals and decide on a case by case basis. If there was a major turn round in the ruling structure, then it is possible that the current recipients of the properties may find a need to go into exile themselves, which would hopefully allow some people to return to their land. But I suspect that a large majority will have to live with the fact that they have lost the land, unfair but likely.

Also the comparison between the Palestinian/Israeli issue and Cuba is not a very good one. The borders of Cuba have never been in question and Cuba existed as a nation prior to the revolution, so it is really an internal matter. Palestine has never existed as a nation and Israel was born out of a war between the Arabs and the Jews. The basic question there, is how do you deal with two different people , with two different agenda's who both want to live on the same land and by a set of rules unacceptable to the other.


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## Danjanou

Brad, 

You‘re probably right and there must be contigency plans. Hey Sherwood you‘re not the Major mentioned earlier in charge of updating them are you?   

As to what's going to happen, I have no idea but it is something I do wonder about. Especially so when I'm actually on the ground down there and realise that if he goes and how he goes and happens then and there I may be in an interesting situation. (Might find out how rusty all my old infantry skills are after all.) 

There is no guarantee that his passing will be peaceful. Castro started out as an idealistic lawyer (and pitcher)who overthrew General Batista in a bitter fight. Prior to that a young idealistic Army Sgt. named Batista overthrew a corrupt dictator with ties to Capone named Machado. A little over simplified but you get the picture. 

A Cuban friend once told me a "joke" that basically said an election in Cuba was when the peons grabbed their rifles and went into the hills every few years and the winners came back out and formed the new Government, until the next round.

I was there in 1994 during the "coup" attempt against Gorby in Moscow and saw first hand Castro's over reaction to it (troops on the streets etc.) I was there for a couple of the more severe crackdowns in the 1990‘s including the one right after the Papal visit that saw several thousands of Companeros (including a couple of friends) tossed into jail and sentenced to a couple of years cutting sugar cane. I was there right after the incident that saw the Migs splash the two light planes flown by Brothers in Arms and again during the whole Elian incident. That last one was surreal, watching the protests on CNN in my hotel in Havana and then going out and seeing it for real.

Colin good point re Cuba and the middle east, there is no comparison.


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## The Queen`s Bloggins

To get back tot he original intent of this thread... I think there does exist a plan to invade Cuba upon Casto‘s death. The plan is not located in the Pentagon (although they have tried this before), but rather in Little Havana in Miami. This is where many Cuban-American‘s live who left after Baptista‘s regime fell, as well as those who escaped over the years. 

These folks are hard-core conservatives who have supported the U.S. Republican party for years (these folks are why Bush campaigns so hard there, they also likely saved his bacon last election), with the main agenda being a hard-line on communism, especially against Cuba. 

It has been strongly suspected and hinted that there is some grassroots movement in south Florida to "revisit" the island upon Castro‘s death. This will likely take the form of many ex-Cuban‘s and their decendants who are ready to take up an armed struggle to free their island. I have read several articles to this effect. I also lived in Florida for a time, and recall seeing mention of news stories about Cuban-Americans who regularly fly over the 90-mile gap between Key West and Cuba, in order to spot refugees who are trying escape from Cuba. Sometimes, these planes get too close and a MiG gets them.   

Just the same, I think when the old man dies you‘ll see an expedition from the U.S., just not the official kind.


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## Arctic Acorn

With all due respect, I think you grossly overestimate the Americans interest in the country. At the very least the next 4 years are a write off, as Bush is going to be pretty focussed on getting re-elected (mostly by not doing drastic like, for instance, invading Cuba). If he is reelected he‘ll probably be tied up with the Middle East. If the Democrats are elected...I REALLY doubt invasion of Cuba is on Kerry‘s ‘To Do‘ list.  

Additionally, I also doubt the American government would sit idly by and let a group of illegal immigrants take up arms and launch an armed insurrection from Miami. There are people on this site who are better versed on all things Cuban than I, but I find the whole thing far-fetched. Though I‘m having fun imagining a gaggle of illegal immigrants, armed with various small-arms (acquired through Cuban street gang contacts), paddling bathtubs the 90 miles to havana...


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## jrhume

As mentioned above, interest in invading Cuba is low in the US, except in south Florida.

The subject of invasion plans has come up before.  All competent military staff organizations develop and maintain contingency plans based on relevant risks.  I‘ll bet all of us would be amazed to see the contingency plans lying around in CF headquarters and its various operational elements.

The US has to develop such plans for a wide variety of situations and that effort is carried out by professionals -- not all of whom are mere majors.     

I‘ll bet a six-pack that Cuban invasion plans, in several forms, are extant in the Pentagon and at the headquarters of lower commands, especially those who might be called out on short notice for such an invasion.  Think about it.  Fort Bragg, Fort Benning, Tyndall AFB and others would be involved from the get-go.  The planners at those facilities probably maintain plans coordinated with an overall Pentagon-level plan.  I‘m reasonably sure they would also develop independent plans covering contingencies not mentioned in the larger plan.

This is the sort of thing military staffs do.

One possibility: How about if we have a surrogate invade Cuba?  
Mexico?
Canada?


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## Ex-Dragoon

Well there is that old 1935 plan you guys can dust off JR lol.


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## winchable

Well it seems the fall hasn't phased Fidel much and "removing" the US dollar from Cuba will go ahead as planned.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cuba/story/0,11983,1336696,00.html

Also, big vote in the UN (if anyone cares anymore) on the trade embargo tommorow.
It seems there were only 3 countries against lifting the Embargo in the entire world.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?section=NATIONAL&oid=62216

Danjanou, what do you think?

Thought I'd combine the two stories into one post


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## I_am_John_Galt

From the first article: "from November 8, these would have to be exchanged for pesos to be spent, and there would be a 10% commission."

Amazes me that Castro's still a hero to so many socialists ... [slow, barely perceptible shaking of the head]


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## winchable

As I understand the 10% commission is to act as a buffer against any risk the Cuban government is taking.
As far as I know the american bucks are being used on the international market to purchase things such as medical supplies, books, etc.

I dunno,
It's really much less black and white than many of us are led to believe.
Castro began with a model for a government that could have revolutionized the entire of LATAM. In the US' Backyard? Not bloody likely. Land reform? The united fruit company sees otherwise.
For better or for worse he is the most important figure in LATAM politics, and one of the most enduring fighters in the world. 
At 78 years old I cannot picture any man shattering bones on a stage then getting up and giving a 15 minute speech.
He's had to "make deals with the devil" but I don't blame him, I don't think he jumped off that cliff and I firmly believe he was pushed.

I would love to see Cuba indpendent and sovereign from foreign investment, a self-sufficient model that LATAM could follow but I've learned the hard way that some things will not be allowed to happen.


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## dutchie

Well said Che.


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## Danjanou

Just when it econically viable to go back to Cuba with our lame dollar at plus eigthy cents too.

So you mean I now have to figure out how much the Jinteros are going to charge me in Euros for my blackmarket Cohibas and Langosta? 

Well good thing I no longer have to worry about the Jinteras. 8)

Seriously not a good move in the long run. The US Dollar is a common currency in a lot of places and this may start to inconvenience the touristas who still acount for most of his outside revenue.

As for the embargo its a farce. It has more holes in it than McGguilty has broken election promises.


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## I_am_John_Galt

Che said:
			
		

> As I understand the 10% commission is to act as a buffer against any risk the Cuban government is taking.



Yeah, right.  I suppose the point that it amounts to a 10% tax on everyone holding the only currency of any value in the country is moot, right?  This is the essence of socialism: transfer of wealth to a ruling elite from everyone else, as it is supposedly in their best interests.

The only reason why Cuban economy hasn't already completely self-destructed is the years of artificial support it got from the USSR.  

I still can't figure out how the "anti-globalization activists" reconcile their notion of the evils of free trade with opposition to the trade embargo on Cuba (no imperialistc trade with evil American multinationals = must be a paradise, right?).


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## Infanteer

> Also, big vote in the UN (if anyone cares anymore) on the trade embargo tommorow.
> It seems there were only 3 countries against lifting the Embargo in the entire world.



Unfortunately, one of those 3 is the only one that really matters.



> I would love to see Cuba indpendent and sovereign from foreign investment, a self-sufficient model that LATAM could follow but I've learned the hard way that some things will not be allowed to happen.



It's funny that people seem to blame all the problems of the of Cuba on the embargo.   Isn't it ironic that the path to a bountiful socialist paradise can only be met with access to the harvest of a liberal, free market economy?

I fully recognize that the Batista regime was a corrupt kleptocracy, but this fact doesn't necessarily make Castro's regime "good."   The fact that he went to bed with the Soviets speaks volumes about his credibility (and sent troops in support of gaining more Kremlin satelites).

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


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## winchable

> Unfortunately, one of those 3 is the only one that really matters.



Absolutely disagree. Might will never make right in my books even if that is the case for the majority of career politicians.



> It's funny that people seem to blame all the problems of the of Cuba on the embargo.  Isn't it ironic that the path to a bountiful socialist paradise can only be met with access to the harvest of a liberal, free market economy?



The "_problems_" of the Cuban economy is that it is a developing country and that it is using a model that stands outside of what is "_right_" 
Name the latin American country with the lowest level of HIV, name the latin american country with the lowest unemployment rate, name the latin American country that provides the best health services (Arguably Costa Rica fine) highest literacy level? 
Or, name the latin American country that consistently comes near the top of all of these catergories.
A free market economy in a developing world is horse shite. Economy is a concern, but an economy is useless if the people are dead and if the economy belongs to foreign investment.



> I fully recognize that the Batista regime was a corrupt kleptocracy, but this fact doesn't necessarily make Castro's regime "good."  The fact that he went to bed with the Soviets speaks volumes about his credibility (and sent troops in support of gaining more Kremlin satelites



Going to bed with the Soviets isn't a term I would use.
Pushed into bed with the Soviets by an Eagle trying to peck out his eyes perhaps.

I don't believe his regime is good. But I don't particularly think any government in the world right now is particularly "good"
But it still stands as a model for development in LATAM and other developing countries that will never be allowed to occur even though it could potentially turn it around.


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## winchable

I'm going to get ripped to pieces for this I just know it.

And just when Infanteer and I had buried the hatchet


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## Brad Sallows

>A free market economy in a developing world is horse shite

So, how did the rest of us get from "developing" to "developed"?


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## winchable

> So, how did the rest of us get from "developing" to "developed"?



If I were to tell you by riding the backs of the proleteriat this thread might degrade slightly in quality, so suffice it to say I believe the modern developed world got to be developed in ways that are unacceptable in modern times.


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## Danjanou

Nice points Che, but lets not forget name the country where Doctors, Engineers and other professionals etc leave those professions because they can earn more in tips as a good pool waiter in Varadero or Cayo Coco. 

Name a country where I visited a local rural clinic and realised I had more basic medical supplies and drugs in my rucksack med pack than they did in the whole clinic. 

Name a country where at one time said doctor turned pool waiter was forced to turn his dollar tip into the Government for a shiny peso as per the official exchange rate, this when the unofficial black market rate was 100 to 1. Not that it mattered as he was prohibited from even entering let alone shopping in the hard currency foreigner only diplomat stores. 

Name a country where where young woman in their teens were forced by economic necessity into earning a living on their backs for dirty old men ( European and Canadian) to support families and if caught were given you guessed it three years strict regime.

Lets not get in to the political parts such as name a country where attempts at illegal immigration is worth 3 years strict regime prison cutting sugar cane, if caught (Balaseros) 

Name a country where protesting the government is worth 3 years strict regime or worse, where trying to set up a mom and pop restuarant or B&B  can mean 

Name a country where yes everyone got an education and access to Tv and/or radio, but were limited in what they were allowed to read watch listen to. 

Name a country where talking to foreigner earned you a visit to the Policia, and maybe three years. 

Name a country where testing positive for HIV meant forced confinement in a government institution against your will. Remember the Roqueros?

Two sides to every coin, even Moneida Nacional or Pesos Convertible mi Companero.	

Infanteer for the record Sgt Batista did start asa reformer and guerilla leader against Presidente Machado in the 1920s and 1930s. As they say power corrupts and .....


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## Infanteer

Thanks Danjanou - checkmate.

Che, no worries mate.  We're here to debate.  If this means putting our conceptions and our angles and viewpoints up to be pecked at, then so be it.  There is no personal enmity in it (We got over that bump along time ago   ).



> Absolutely disagree. Might will never make right in my books even if that is the case for the majority of career politicians.



I didn't mean that the US is the only one that matters in terms of power, I mean economically, the world can decide to accept Cuba with open arms, but until Cuba has access to US markets, the UN vote is useless.  The United States, as a sovereign country, is fully in its perview to maintain its own embargo.  It's funny how some are so eager to condemn the US for "meddling in others affairs" and then are just as eager to meddle in the affairs of Americans, telling them who and who they shouldn't trade with (YANKEE SCUM, DON'T TRADE WITH ISRAEL, TRADE WITH CUBA; LISTEN TO US OR WE'LL CONDEMN YOU!!!).


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## winchable

Also good points Danjanou.
Except for one:


> Name a country where testing positive for HIV meant forced confinement in a government institution against your will. Remember the Roqueros?



I thought that was the initial knee jerk reaction and they've since changed that practice considerably.

I wouldn't call Castro a saint, but he's not entirely the devil either.

I still contend that they are better off than many of us in the west would say. Compare them to any country in africa and many countries in LATAM.
Had Castro never come along I see a Cuba in much worse shape than it is in right now.

Jefe needs to change there's no question but I do have a deep place in my heart for Cuba and I and many others would not like to see Cuba corruptd in the way it was before Castro and that was all under the eyes of the US administration.
What bothers the US (and I admit I have no way of getting into the mind of an American politician) is that this is one of the administrations in their Own backyard that they do not have a transparent view of.

He might be an old, grumpy, agressive, rhetorically filled, control fetishist, BUT he is Cuba's old, grumpy, agressive, rhetorically filled, control fetishist.
Why trade a controlling tyrant in Havana for a power that has use LATAM as a puppet show?


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## I_am_John_Galt

Che said:
			
		

> The "_problems_" of the Cuban economy is that it is a developing country and that it is using a model that stands outside of what is "_right_"
> Name the latin American country with the lowest level of HIV, name the latin american country with the lowest unemployment rate, name the latin American country that provides the best health services (Arguably Costa Rica fine) highest literacy level?
> Or, name the latin American country that consistently comes near the top of all of these catergories.
> A free market economy in a developing world is horse shite. Economy is a concern, but an economy is useless if the people are dead and if the economy belongs to foreign investment.


For most (if not all) of those claims, the word "allegedly" should preceed!

That Cubans are fleeing the country and begging the US for asylum (remember Elian Gonzales?) suggests that it may not be the paradise you make it out to be ...




> Going to bed with the Soviets isn't a term I would use.
> Pushed into bed with the Soviets by an Eagle trying to peck out his eyes perhaps.


WHAT?!?!?  The Communist Party of Cuba was a member of COMINTERN since the 1920's!!!  (I thought the Chomsky discussion was in another thread!)




> But it still stands as a model for development in LATAM and other developing countries that will never be allowed to occur even though it could potentially turn it around.


What does this mean?


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## winchable

> For most (if not all) of those claims, the word "allegedly" should preceed!


Fair enough



> That Cubans are fleeing the country and begging the US for asylum (remember Elian Gonzales?) suggests that it may not be the paradise you make it out to be ...



Perhaps, but I've never called it a paradise. I've described it as a model for developing countries that could potentially work, but paradise, never.
I've talked with quite a few Cuban academics, doctors, engineers who Castro has sent to other developing countries and they say "no" they will not leave. Cuba might be imperfect, but they've seen how the rest of the developing world is and they, due to experiences they would never have gotten under other regimes, know that the majority of the world is NOT any better.



> WHAT?!?!?  The Communist Party of Cuba was a member of COMINTERN since the 1920's!!!



And they didn't support Castro's rise to power for a minute until the United Fruit Company set the Eagle up in arms.
Opportunism? Yeah, but they had very little to do with Castro until the US started twisting Castros nipples.

And I'm not sure what's unclear about the last point.


----------



## Infanteer

Come on Che, you got to be kidding me?   Please tell me you've lived in Cuba so I can be sure I'm not mistaken you for some member of the local university chapter of the Spartacus League.   I've come to know you in the last while and your posts are solid and well thought out, so I'm honestly confounded by this "digging in" of the heels.   I am willing to send you my copy of Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

Seriously though, I would encourage you to try and sell your convictions in Florida.  There is a reason people float on cars to get there.



> I've talked with quite a few Cuban academics, doctors, engineers who Castro has sent to other developing countries and they say "no" they will not leave.



Hmm...notice the caveat.  The Soviets did this too...hey, I remember a great Olympics in Berlin in 1936 to showcase the Marvels of National Socialism.  Beware the snake-oil salesmen.


----------



## winchable

> some member of the local university chapter of the Spartacus League.



Actually I really hate those bastards. How do they get to the protest? In an SUV from the south end of Halifax.



> Seriously though, I would encourage you to try and sell your convictions in Florida.  There is a reason people float on cars to get there



Illusions of granduer in the land of the free? Angry Exiles offering them room and board? 



> Beware the snake-oil salesmen.


Believe me if I could name names I would, but sufficed to say, these were not all sunshine and lollipops academics.

I wouldn't have mentioned them had they not been very critical of Castros power fetish.
Cuba is a model for a developing country, not a champion of democracy.
I will bend and concede Castro is long past his time and that Cuba is anything but paradise, and I have seen the medical clinics the slums and the underbelly of Cuba.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Che said:
			
		

> I've talked with quite a few Cuban academics, doctors, engineers who Castro has sent to other developing countries and they say "no" they will not leave. Cuba might be imperfect, but they've seen how the rest of the developing world is and they, due to experiences they would never have gotten under other regimes, know that the majority of the world is NOT any better.


I've talked to a few who aren't part of the elite and their story seems to differ somewhat ...



> And they didn't support Castro's rise to power for a minute until the United Fruit Company set the Eagle up in arms.
> Opportunism? Yeah, but they had very little to do with Castro until the US started twisting Castros nipples.



Let me follow your logic: the old communist party (under directives from Moscow) exists in Batiista's cabinet; Castro wins the revolution and starts nationalizing the economy and eliminating political opponents.  US gets pissed-off at the expropriation of private property and aborts a (ridiculously underwhelming) invasion.  So the old communist party decides to join with Castro because of the actions of the US and not, say the fact that they threatened with extinction (and death and torture of their leaders), or that Castro was being paid by Moscow to consolidate communist power.



> And I'm not sure what's unclear about the last point.


I don't understand what you are trying to say: that if you shower enough money for long enough in even the stupidest of economic systems that there will be some economic benefit for some people?


----------



## winchable

> I've talked to a few who aren't part of the elite and their story seems to differ somewhat



That would be right on par with my thesis.
The _elite_ (if you knew how little they get payed they might not seem so elite) have, as I've said, seen how the majority of the world lives. And it would make sense that Juan the bartender has not worked in Africa and has heard enough stories about the fabulous America that their stories would differ.



> So the old communist party decides to join with Castro because of the actions of the US and not, say the fact that they threatened with extinction (and death and torture of their leaders), or that Castro was being paid by Moscow to consolidate communist power



Quite frankly, until I see some textual sources that's a theory that has little basis in history and uses the same speculation that Mr. Chomsky uses.



> I don't understand what you are trying to say: that if you shower enough money for long enough in even the stupidest of economic systems that there will be some economic benefit for some people?



Yeah...still not following.


----------



## Infanteer

> Actually I really hate those bastards. How do they get to the protest? In an SUV from the south end of Halifax.



HA!   You're right on the mark there.   I shut one up pretty quick by asking him how he amended himself between aiming at getting American Imperialists out of Iraq and owning a $120 Nike running shoes...Academia is so full of contradictions at times....


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Che said:
			
		

> That would be right on par with my thesis.
> The _elite_ (if you knew how little they get payed they might not seem so elite) have, as I've said, seen how the majority of the world lives. And it would make sense that Juan the bartender has not worked in Africa and has heard enough stories about the fabulous America that their stories would differ.


If my family were, in effect, being held hostage by my government while I was overseas I might have some difficulty speaking out against it.  More to the point is the fact that the press, internet, etc. is so strictly controlled that they have no choice but to dream about the outside world.



> Quite frankly, until I see some textual sources that's a theory that has little basis in history and uses the same speculation that Mr. Chomsky uses.


Be serious here: I am having to make the assumption that Moscow would support nationalization of the economy and that COMINTERN existed to spread communism (or at least fealty to Moscow's communism) around the world.



> Yeah...still not following.


From your subsequent post, you seem to be arguing that Cuba is some kind of a model for third world development, and while socialism has failed in nearly every other context, Cuba is the notable exception.  However, one can't help but to wonder how much of it's supposed success was built purely on transfers from the Soviets (given the post-Soviet collapse of their economy, I would venture that the answer is somewhere between the lines of "a lot" and "a heck of a lot").


----------



## winchable

> If my family were, in effect, being held hostage by my government while I was overseas I might have some difficulty speaking out against it.  More to the point is the fact that the press, internet, etc. is so strictly controlled that they have no choice but to dream about the outside world.



Well I did state they were speaking out against Castro's control fetish in the conversation I had with them.
A very reasonable point though of course.
I should note that I don't follow Castro's Cuba blindly and that freeom of press is one of the things I don't see eye to eye with them on.



> Be serious here: I am having to make the assumption that Moscow would support nationalization of the economy and that COMINTERN existed to spread communism (or at least fealty to Moscow's communism) around the world



Fair enough, however if you read the diaries and memoirs of the revolutions main players, prior to the big blowup, you'll find that they were equally critical of the USSR as being as imperialist as the "Yankee agressor"
Which supports, I believe, my theory that they were in fact pushed into bed with the Soviets more so than willingly jumping in.



> From your subsequent post, you seem to be arguing that Cuba is some kind of a model for third world development, and while socialism has failed in nearly every other context, Cuba is the notable exception.  However, one can't help but to wonder how much of it's supposed success was built purely on transfers from the Soviets (given the post-Soviet collapse of their economy, I would venture that the answer is somewhere between the lines of "a lot" and "a heck of a lot").



Ah Now I follow.
A good point of course.
When I say Cuba is a model I mean in the sense that the social changes are neccessary before economic success can be achieved.
IE;Dead campesinos can't cut sugar cane.

As good model I suppose I shouldn't say. A working possibility outside of opening the flood of foreign investment and land control (Assume for a moment that the USSR and the USA weren't locked in a power struggle)


----------



## Danjanou

Actually good ole Juan the bartender probably has got a good look at Africa that is if he's over 30-35. 
To get work in a hotel/resort there you must show proof of completion of national service. Anyone in that age group probably got a free all inclusive vacation in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Angola or other charming spots compliments of the Bearded one whose name is never mentioned aloud amongst the companeros.

Che you're probably right re the Rocqueros, mind I think they're all dead, and because of those drastic measures back then HIV infection is pretty minimal on the island. That and the closing of Varadero to the sex tourists back in the late 1990's.

You get the feeling that Senor Galt may have spent a little time there too amigo and not at the all inclusive swim up bar either?


----------



## winchable

> Actually good ole Juan the bartender probably has got a good look at Africa that is if he's over 30-35.



Most Juan's I met were young hotheaded youth (nary a year or two past me!) who hated not having nike shoes, porno and well endowed blond American women around all the time.

I still find it strange that Castro doesn't have the sight to be able to realise that he's headed off into a bad place, the same kind of place that allowed him to take power.


----------



## a_majoor

What an amazing thread!

It seems socialism has cast its magic spell even over those of us who are in the profession of fighting socialism    .Seriously, the actions of Castro are pretty self evident. A 10% foreign exchange tax or commission is just another means of raking off and pocketing what little wealth the Cubans have managed to gain for themselves.

The historical background of the United States in Cuba and the rest of the Carribean basin are best outlined in Max Boot's "The Savage Wars of Peace", which I strongly suggest people read before going on about the United Fruit Company. The original imperative for US actions in Haiti, Nicaragua, Cuba and the Dominican Republic was to protect the sea approaches of the Panama Canal, and prevent local instability and revolutions from inviting the unwelcome attention of Imperial Powers like Germany, far fetched as it may sound today. US military power was secondarily used for what we call "nation building" today, on only marginally for economic reasons (the defense of property rights). Benign neglect was actually the order of the day, with American administrations believing in the power of example, rather than explicitly creating government structures which could govern after the withdrawl of the Marines. (This lesson seems to have been learned in Afghanistan and Iraq. How well it is executed remains to be seen).

IF anyone really wants to make a comparison between Socialism and Capitalism, simply compare the current rates of economic growth, unemployment or number of MRIs per capita between Canada and the United States. If only Mr Martin would emulate George W Bush's "mistakes" and give us such a "weak" economy....


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Che said:
			
		

> Fair enough, however if you read the diaries and memoirs of the revolutions main players, prior to the big blowup, you'll find that they were equally critical of the USSR as being as imperialist as the "Yankee agressor"
> Which supports, I believe, my theory that they were in fact pushed into bed with the Soviets more so than willingly jumping in.


To be fair, the only diary I've read is (the other) Che's, and that was well before his Cuba days ... I do find this hard to swallow as Castro's official diplomatic and military alliance with the USSR coincided with nationalization of the economy (at the time the US was still trying to get him 'onside') and thus preceeded any kind of US "push" (unless they somehow time-travelled and did it retroactively): the only reasonable interpretation is that Castro was pushing-away the US at Moscow's behest (or at the VERY least endorsement).  A good chunk of Castro's raison d'etre was to distance Cuba from the US ... the US had too much investment in the country to try to "push" Castro to the Soviets (not to mention that whole communism in their backyard thing).  Rather ironic that the two main selling features of the revolution were the dictatorship of Batista and economic dependence on the US, which within a couple of years were replaced with the dictatorship of Castro and economic dependence on the USSR ...

And don't think that it was purely communist ideology that brought the Soviets and the Cubans together: it's been argued by many that without continued Sino-Soviet conflict the Cold War would have been lost to communism.




> Actually good ole Juan the bartender probably has got a good look at Africa that is if he's over 30-35.
> To get work in a hotel/resort there you must show proof of completion of national service. Anyone in that age group probably got a free all inclusive vacation in Ethiopia, Eritrea, Angola or other charming spots compliments of the Bearded one whose name is never mentioned aloud amongst the companeros.


HEH!



> You get the feeling that Senor Galt may have spent a little time there too amigo and not at the all inclusive swim up bar either?


Yeah, a little ... never even made it to Varadero or any of the other hotspots, though (Damn!).


----------



## winchable

> Rather ironic that the two main selling features of the revolution were the dictatorship of Batista and economic dependence on the US, which within a couple of years were replaced with the dictatorship of Castro and economic dependence on the USSR ...



Which I agree with you on.
And as I've stated if you read the diaries and works up to an including the revolution you'll find no mention (at least in favorable light) of the USSR, which is why I find it hard to believe that they jumped into bed with the soviets.
And I find it even more difficult to believe that the Cubans pushed the US away at the behest of the USSR, based on said writings.



> the US had too much investment in the country to try to "push" Castro to the Soviets



Agreed, but the land reforms began long before the Soviets came along, they began in the Oriente province (state within a state) during Batista's reign.
In fact, Castro's family farm was the first one to be nationalized.
It's an example of bluffs being called and an asshole stepping in and screwing things up if you ask me
The US pushed and pushed Castro to fall in line because they assumed eventually he would.
The Soviets siezed the opportunity to trade sugar for raw materials, factories, professionals to train, engineers etc.
And of course, piss of uncle Sam.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

I still don't buy it: the Soviets had a strategic interest in Cuba, and Castro wanted to sever ties with the US by any means necessary.  The Soviets didn't give a rat's a** about sugar or any other Cuban "resources".  Castro only wanted to reduce dependence on the United States: the USSR started bribing him almost immediately by buying sugar well above market prices.  The relationship grew closer as Castro bought Soviet oil at well below market prices (the Soviets were bribing him in both directions), but the (primarily US-owned) oil refineries refused to process the Soviet oil (as if they ever would!).  So Castro nationalised them.  So the US refused to purchase Cuban sugar.  So Castro nationalized pretty much everything else.

An oversimplification, but the points are that: 1> central to Castro's appeal was that he would reduce dependence on American multinationals; 2> that he was proactive vis-a-vis the United States in that regard; 3> he could only afford to do so with the support of the Soviets; and, 4> the Soviets were willing to incur huge trade losses to ensure that Castro was on their side.

Let me put it this way: do you really think that Castro was stupid enough to believe he wouldn't be pushing Cuba away from the US if he nationalized ITT, United Fruit, Texaco, etc.?


----------



## Brad Sallows

>If I were to tell you by riding the backs of the proleteriat this thread might degrade slightly in quality

What is the difference between "free market" and "riding the backs of the proletariat"?

>so suffice it to say I believe the modern developed world got to be developed in ways that are unacceptable in modern times.

Please, be specific.  I'm curious to hear how the industrialization of, say, England compares in terms of "unacceptable" with the industrialization of, say, Russia?  What is acceptable?  In what ways should we constrain our rate of abolishment of poverty (thereby condemning future generations) in order to achieve "acceptability"?

Certainly as a one-crop colony of the USSR Cuba obtained more subsidies than it did as a one-crop colony of US "big agriculture".  The end of the free ride has been a little rough, though.  I wonder how Cuba would look today if had spent the last 50+ years as a tourist destination freely accessible to Americans?


----------



## winchable

> do you really think that Castro was stupid enough to believe he wouldn't be pushing Cuba away from the US if he nationalized ITT, United Fruit, Texaco, etc.?



Never said I didn't think that.
I said he wasn't pushing away the Americans because the Soviets were urging him to.
He pushed away American control before the Soviets entered the fray in Oriente.



> What is the difference between "free market" and "riding the backs of the proletariat"?



Well I would say that the free market had much loose definition at the time of budding US interest in LATAM after the Spanish-American war (And prior to)
Meaning they Couldn't grow certain crops at home due to soil constraints and they could get much cheaper labour by strong arming and pressuring LATAM governments to fall in line and grow what was demanded in the US while caring less about what the actual people of said county could grow.
So in that sense, and I used proletariat in a humorous sense, the free market means not being constrained by laws that the US imposed at home by exporting this labour to cheaper countries.

Cubans, if we might momentarily disregard what occured afterwards, had the fortune of finding a gruop of leaders at the right time in the right place with the right amount of luck and the right message to try and end this.
It's definetly debatable that what happened afterwards strayed from the initial idea due to outside pressure from two warring superpowers vying for a foothold.



> I'm curious to hear how the industrialization of, say, England compares in terms of "unacceptable" with the industrialization of, say, Russia?  What is acceptable?  In what ways should we constrain our rate of abolishment of poverty (thereby condemning future generations) in order to achieve "acceptability



Acceptable in modern terms is not what happened during the industrialization of either country. 
If you think I'm pro Soviet you're mistaken.
The people worked insanely long hours at wages that don't even compare to modern wages after inflation is taken into account and were given no subsidies of any kind whatsoever
This made a few very lucky people filthy rich and industralized England and Russia (even more so) in a short amount of time.
Can this be done today?
I don't know, can it? Would it be acceptable?



> I wonder how Cuba would look today if had spent the last 50+ years as a tourist destination freely accessible to Americans?



Roughly without much work, something like this I would wager:
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gt.html
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ho.html


----------



## Acorn

Brad, I think Che has a point there. Much of what occurred to bring us to the lofty position of "developed" looked a lot like what has occurred in Latin America in the past 50-odd years. The rise of unions, providing collective protection of workers (leaving aside that gov't has taken much of the union role today, and they are much less relevant and more a nuisiance.) Universal sufferage. A great many socialist "benefits" we have here in Canada, including some which seem to have, unfortunately, come to define our culture, like universal health care.

Perhaps the difference between Castro's Cuba and Pearson/Trudeau's Canada was a common language with the US? We got away with it, and Castro was forced to look to the USSR.

Acorn


----------



## Brad Sallows

Cuba was definitely caught between two superpowers; it simply moved from providing what one wanted to providing what the other wanted.  If I understand you arightly, you believe the leadership might magically have done something else if they were free of those constraints.  Well, if they were truly free of the need to co-operate with a superpower they should've done so.  The evidence to me suggests that they could not, so they made accommodations and had to live with their choices.  I would guess that anytime from the late '60s onward it has been possible for Cuba to move in a direction more of its own choosing, rather than waste time sticking to its client status and fomenting revolutions elsewhere.  At whose feet should that wasted time be laid?  I simply see yet another dictator, bereft of any useful ideas or perhaps merely the energy to do anything with them, dedicated to preserving the status quo of his own rule at all costs.  I have yet to see his chosen "system" benefit any particular nation in the long term; capitalism still seems to be the worst possible system, except for all the others.  How would Cuba look today sans Soviet subsidies for all the time those subsidies were provided?  Let me guess: Cuba will thrive when and only when it obtains free trade and access to free markets.

>Acceptable in modern terms is not what happened during the industrialization of either country.

"Acceptable" is what you get when you can afford a particular level of acceptability.  I am sure that our "acceptable" practices today will seem barbaric to a more advanced level of development in 100 years.  I grant that socialism has enabled some nations to move more quickly through some stages of the transition from agrarian to industrial, although at a fairly spectacular human cost.  Shorter work hours and higher earnings are "earned" by increases in productivity.  Those increases can't be enacted by fiat, although goodness knows some governments have tried.  It will be interesting to see what happens to GDP in India and China over the next few years.  There may be a lesson there that some people haven't learned yet.  Maybe we can also learn something by watching the rate of change of development in Venezuela.

>This made a few very lucky people filthy rich and industralized England and Russia (even more so) in a short amount of time.
>Can this be done today?
>I don't know, can it? Would it be acceptable?

Is your focus on the income gap, or the absolute change in incomes?  The pigs are growing wealthier faster than the sheep, but the sheep are growing wealthier.  Is that better or worse than a system in which the sheep grow wealthy more slowly, but the pigs don't move ahead so quickly?

>I wonder how Cuba would look today if had spent the last 50+ years as a tourist destination freely accessible to Americans?

Honduras and Guatemala?  Why not Costa Rica?  Cuba was a popular destination before its revolution.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Does anyone have any expertise which would enable them to give a reasonable prediction what direction the net worth of Cubans will move in after they trade their US currency for Cuban?

Supposing that expats will continue to send money "home", but in a different currency, the Cuban economy will now also enjoy the fact that of the wealth "X" that was formerly imported in raw USD, some will now be lost to the transaction cost of changing USD to other currencies.  Good move.


----------



## winchable

I do agree with your points to a certain extent and know there is room for both of us to bend on this.

Castro is neither devil nor saint but can and has exhibited qualities of both.



> Cuba was a popular destination before its revolution



Agreed, but what for, and by whom?


----------



## Infanteer

> Agreed, but what for, and by whom?



Michael Corleone?

But was it necessarily an improvement to trade him in for Boris from Odessa (who now, oddly, has assumed the mantle once occupied by Mr Corleone)


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Che said:
			
		

> I said he wasn't pushing away the Americans because the Soviets were urging him to.
> He pushed away American control before the Soviets entered the fray in Oriente.


This is getting confusing: I thought your claim was that the Americans pushed Cuba into the arms of the Soviets ... this suggests that Castro was pushing away the Americans and not vice-versa! 




> Well I would say that the free market had much loose definition at the time of budding US interest in LATAM after the Spanish-American war (And prior to)
> Meaning they Couldn't grow certain crops at home due to soil constraints ...


 Ahh yes, find discredited old Marxist propaganda, strike out "proletariat" and "bourgeoisie", replace with "third world" and "imperialist American capitalist pigs" and _abracadabra_ new economic theory (and only theoretical assumption required is to equate capitalism with mercantilism)!  And to think that all these years I've been thinking it was the industrial revolution.

P.S> Sorry for the sarcasm: I couldn't resist pointing-out the obvious ...


----------



## winchable

> This is getting confusing: I thought your claim was that the Americans pushed Cuba into the arms of the Soviets ...



Definetly was pushing at the Americans, who were pushing back it seems trying to call his bluff, and the soviets saw opportunism and jumped on.



> Ahh yes, find discredited old Marxist propaganda, strike out "proletariat" and "bourgeoisie", replace with "third world" and "imperialist American capitalist pigs" and abracadabra new economic theory (and only theoretical assumption required is to equate capitalism with mercantilism)!   And to think that all these years I've been thinking it was the industrial



The industrial revolution, come on, you mean to tell me you think that the industrial revolution could happen in todays world of 9-5, unions etc.?
If you're not going to concede that than you're being as difficult as I am here.
I would say Marxism was viable before the unions etc. because the workers were being seriously exploited as labour without regards to any of the non-existent labour laws.
AND, in Latin America such labour laws were unheard of, as Acorn has pointed out.
Look at the history of Cuba and you'll see a lot of exploitation by the Spanish first than companies like United Fruit which couldn't grow the crops and couldn't use the labour like they could use a bunch of Creoles and "Freed" slaves.
The fact is that all over LATAM at the time massive exploitation was occuring (And it could be argued in some places it still does)

I can't even remember what the discussion is about anymore and obviously none of us are going to budge so I see no point in arguing circles and semantics.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

I've never before heard of calling someone's bluff as pushing them into someone else's arms (more like not allowing yourself to be taken advantage-of) ... seems like an awfully weak argument to me ... anyway ...

I will let it rest, but before I walk away from the discussion I will point out that the Asian Tigers industrialized very rapidly and very successfully in the latter half of the 20th Century and it had nothing to do with Nationalization of private industry & property, pre-existing social conditions, warmed-over Marxism or griping about real or perceived historical grievances: rather, it had everything to do with Private Property Rights, building on existiing trade relationships and free mobility of capital and labour.  ;D


----------



## Brad Sallows

Rapid industrialization and advancement up to the leading edge should be expected.  It's much easier to follow in someone's footsteps.  The issue is to identify the impediments.  There is plenty of capital floating around out there looking for a labour pool and markets.


----------



## winchable

Alright, Without arguing for or against I just want to clarify.
I question whether comparing Asia to Cuba is apt, but I want to hear your points expanded.



> Private Property Rights,


Who owns the property?



> building on existiing trade relationships


With whom?



> free mobility of capital and labour


Expand please.



> pre-existing social conditions,


So your contention is that social conditions have no impact on the economy?



> griping about real or perceived historical grievances


Once again this is where i have issue in Comparing Cuba to Asia.
And if you're going to tell me that the Asian industrial workers are better off I do want to see some examples.


----------



## Infanteer

One thing to remember about the growth of the Asian Tigers is that democracy was only addressed once it had a firm framework of civil society to be rested upon - for the most part, states like South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore existed under strong, undemocratic (in our sense of the word) regimes; call it benevolent dictatorship.

None of this foistering democracy at the end of a bayonet crap that we are seeing in Afghanistan and Iraq.


----------



## jmacleod

I wonder how Castro can "get rid of the Yankee dollar" - the real currency in Cuba is
the U.S. Dollar. If you want a Coca Cola with your excellent Havana Club rum, the
Coke was made in Panama, shipped in by Container ship, and paid for in US dollars
- Cuban money is unacceptable to Cuba's suppliers, it is also unacceptable in virtually
all the bars, cafes, restaurants, clubs, and for "tourist purchases' - under Castro, the
Cuban economy, which could have been the best in the southern western Hemisphere
has been a disaster. The street kids used to sell Cuban money which featured the
likeness of President Batista - a lot of tourists got sucked into purchasing the "Batista
Bucks" not aware of Cuban history, post 1958. Our associates and I met a lot of Cubans
-great people, smart, looking for the day when the political situation changes. The US
would be smart to lift the Cuban embargo, and wait for Castro to go to Communist
heaven, and open the doors for Cuban/U.S./Canadian trade. MacLeod


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

Che said:
			
		

> Alright, Without arguing for or against I just want to clarify.
> I question whether comparing Asia to Cuba is apt, but I want to hear your points expanded.
> 
> Who owns the property?



Individuals and corporations, both foreign and domestic.




> (Trade) With whom?



Their imperialist overlords (the West).



> (mobility of capital and labour) Expand please.


I'm not sure how to: individuals can move, quit and apply for work basically at will: there is no authoritarian imposition on who can be hired or fired.  Similarly, individuals (again both domestic and foreign) are (mostly) free to invest their wealth in whatever ways that *they* see fit.




> So your contention is that social conditions have no impact on the economy?



No, but I would argue that there is not any particular pre-existing social condition necessary to realize the benefit of economic liberalization.  More importantly, economic liberalization almost inevitably leads to social/political liberalization.




> Once again this is where i have issue in Comparing Cuba to Asia.
> And if you're going to tell me that the Asian industrial workers are better off I do want to see some examples.



Dude, are you for real?  Per capita GDP (PPP - USD):
#16  Hong Kong    $27,200
#26  Singapore      $25,200
#39  South Korea   $19,200
#48  Taiwan          $18,000
#83  Malaysia        $  8,800
WORLD AVERAGE   $ 7,900
And ...
#152 (Socialist Worker's Paradise) Cuba $ 2,700 (not even close!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

Note: the above is a llittle misleading as all of the Asian economies have a much broader distribution of wealth than in Cuba where it is much more concentrated (i.e., in the hands of our pal, Fidel).


----------



## winchable

Alright
I'll be gentle alhamduhallah PM me.


----------



## jmacleod

Take a moment gentlemen, and read Journalist Peter Worthington in today's Toronto
Sun, focused on a recent CBC "version" of Cuba, the worker's paradise, Toronto Sun
October 30, 2004. MacLeod


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I thought it was worth posting.



Bush an easy target for Cuba 

By PETER WORTHINGTON -- For the Toronto Sun


CBC Radio's Anna-Marie Tremonti kicked off this last week of the U.S. presidential campaign by interviewing a woman in Cuba about George W. Bush. 

The woman said she was speaking personally, and regarded Bush as something of a gangster, a thug who was filled with mischief towards her country. Anna-Marie went on to document how difficult it was to live in Cuba under the U.S. embargo ("blockade" is the word she used, if I remember correctly). 

The woman's pension ran to $4 a month, while that of her husband, a sporadically unemployed taxi driver, was the equivalent of $6 a month. 
  

Apart from the anti-American flavour, it was an enlightening program that created a thoroughly misleading impression: That Cuba's shortcomings were somehow linked to America's economic boycott of Cuba. This is a widely shared view, but utterly false. 

The U.S. may not trade with Cuba, but every other country in the world is free to do so. 

America's boycott should be -- and is -- opportunity for others. Canada, for instance, is a thriving partner with Cuba on various ventures. 

Travel in Cuba and you see the Canadian flag flown alongside the Cuban one at various projects. Go to Cuba as a tourist -- a relatively inexpensive holiday -- and resort tables are loaded with food for visitors from all over the world, especially Europe. 

This opulence while Cuban citizens scratch for food and stretch their ration cards. 

In short, the deprivation that exists in Cuba is homegrown, and the fault of the socio-communist system it practices. Goodness -- a country renowned for producing sugar has to ration sugar to citizens! 

Like most Canadians, I think the U.S. is nuts to maintain its economic boycott of Cuba. U.S. policy just feeds the myth that it is responsible for Cuban poverty. 

In fact, Cuba is the most politically repressed country in the Western hemisphere. Where 20 years ago most of Latin America was deemed by the respected Freedom House to be "unfree" or "partly free," today most of South America is "free" and evolving towards greater democracy. 

Not Cuba. 

Although Cubans who escape their regime are arguably the only genuine political refugees in the Western hemisphere, Canada insists of viewing Cubans who seek asylum here as "economic" refugees, and liable for deportation. 

A curse of being a profitable partner with a Cuban dictator. 

Until this week, Cubans accepted the U.S. dollar as de facto currency, as well as the less-valued peso. No longer. Fidel Castro has decided that all dollars held by Cubans must be exchanged for pesos, with a 10% surcharge to the state. As well as a quick tax, this will also mean more hardships for Cubans (and relatives in the U.S. who send money in Cuba). 

It will encourage a blackmarket in currency and is yet another indictment against the regime. While there's no overt revolutionary spirit in Cuba, it is generally accepted that when Fidel dies, changes will occur. But not until then. 

It's too bad Anna-Marie Tremonti's voyage of discovery to Cuba couldn't have explored why it has failed so wretchedly to live up to the promise of revolution nearly 45 years ago. Instead, in the parts I heard, an impression was created that its hardships were another reason to hope a new U.S. president is elected Nov. 2. Sorry, Anna-Marie, but I'll bet a pina colada that Dubya is returned to the White House more substantially than he was in 2000.


----------



## Yrys

Castro, 81, said in a statement to the country that he would not seek a new presidential term



> "To my dear compatriots, who gave me the immense honor in recent days of electing me a member of parliament ... I communicate to you
> that I will not aspire to or accept -- I repeat not aspire to or accept -- the positions of President of Council of State and Commander in Chief," Castro
> said in the statement published on the Web site of the Communist Party's Granma newspaper. The National Assembly or legislature is expected to
> nominate his brother and designated successor Raul Castro as president in place of Castro, who has not appeared in public for almost 19 months
> after being stricken by an undisclosed illness.
> 
> His retirement drew the curtain on a political career that spanned the Cold War and survived U.S. enmity, CIA assassination attempts and the demise
> of Soviet Communism. A charismatic leader famous for his long speeches delivered in his green military fatigues, Castro is admired in the Third World
> for standing up to the United States but considered by his opponents a tyrant who suppressed freedom.


----------



## CE621

Time for Jack Bin Layton to polish up the old resume.


----------



## Mike Baker

Figured this was coming. I really think that the Cuban people will take the steps for Democracy.


----------



## karl28

I am hoping for the Cuban people that Democracy will help  pave the road to their new future . Than maybe they can have the embargo lifted on Cuba at the same time .


----------



## geo

With Fidel officially stepping down & younger brother Raoul being not too far behind, Cuba is about to face "a new day" sometime soon!.

There will be thousands of Cuban Americans clamoring to influence Cuban politics in the hope of influencing changes and possibly getting their hands on what was once theirs, or at least their grnad-parents.

The American embargo has been a total failure.  If anything, it has forced Cuban authorities to look elsewhere for friends and partners.  Countries like Spain, Venezuela and Canada have firmly entrenched themselves in Cuba... Way to go Dubya!


----------



## tomahawk6

I think Castro has died and all of this is typical of a dictatorship that is in the process of transitioning to new leadership. In the near term I dont see any changes in store for the Cuban people. Maybe when the old guard dies off ....


----------



## a_majoor

geo said:
			
		

> With Fidel officially stepping down & younger brother Raoul being not too far behind, Cuba is about to face "a new day" sometime soon!.
> 
> There will be thousands of Cuban Americans clamoring to influence Cuban politics in the hope of influencing changes and possibly getting their hands on what was once theirs, or at least their grnad-parents.
> 
> The American embargo has been a total failure.  If anything, it has forced Cuban authorities to look elsewhere for friends and partners.  Countries like Spain, Venezuela and Canada have firmly entrenched themselves in Cuba... Way to go Dubya!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba



> The United States embargo against Cuba (described in Cuba as el bloqueo, Spanish for "the blockade") is an economic, commercial, and financial embargo imposed on Cuba on February 7, 1962.



Way to go Jack Kennedy!


----------



## OkotoksRookie

It'll be very interesting to see what happens... particularily to see if the US reaches out.


----------



## geo

Any outreach done by the US will be done at the behest of the Cuban exiles that are Miami.
Given what they want - to reclaim what was once theirs - there is fat chance that they will accept any outreach from Dubya.
Hugo Chavez is happy to tweak at the US and provides aid to Cuba.


----------



## 2 Cdo

Thucydides said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba
> 
> Way to go Jack Kennedy!



I noticed that as well. ;D


----------



## Staff Weenie

While I may be naive on this issue - I've never fully understood the rationale of the US embargo. I believe that all people in the world suffer from some form of greed/jealousy - not necessarily in a bad way - they just 'want things'. In essence, they want what their perceived neighbour has.

For Cubans - this means an envy for things taken for granted by most North Americans - two cars in the driveway, a fridge full of food, etc. Let's admit it, we're pretty much at the apex of the pyramid for individual material wealth in the world.

By placing an embargo on Cuba, the US sets themselves up as the proverbial bad-guy. They are blocking the flow of these goods into Cuba, and Castro becomes their protector, the guy who fought to apportion out equally what meagre resources were left to the benefit of all. And, when you control all the media, it's easy to reinforce that impression.

Had the US taken the opposite approach, and tried to flood their market with material goods and rampant consumerism, then Castro would have been the sticking point, and his people would have seen that he was the one preventing them from getting what they want, and their anger would turn on him.

Probably an oversimplification, I know, but it's something plausible.


----------



## geo

American politicians have been catering to the wants of the cuban expats


----------



## Staff Weenie

And by doing so, they've painted themselves into a corner. Cuba isn't the greatest market around, but it's still another approx 11.4 million folks just a stone's throw away!


----------



## CougarKing

Why do I have a feeling that if Castro has stepped down/effectively retired, (and is still alive contrary to what T6 thinks), that he may still be effectively influencing his brother Raul's decisions and pulling the strings from behind the scenes, even if he has ailing health? This case with Castro might parallel that of China's Deng Xiaoping influencing Jiang Zhemin in the mid-1990s before Deng died and when Jiang was still president, even when Deng's health slowly deteriorated till his death.

Personally, I don't think Raul will last long even if he wields an iron fist...


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I suspect little will change for now, he is just formalizing the current situation, they will not veer to far from his formal polices while he is still alive. However upon his death expect to see the US use this as an excuse to open the door to formal talks and if the Cubans are smart they will use the talks as a way to remove the repayment of seize assest requirements. If Obama gets in he will be falling over himself to make this his showcase, low risk international statement.


----------



## CougarKing

Colin P said:
			
		

> If Obama gets in he will be falling over himself to make this his showcase, low risk international statement.



I doubt it; his proposed foreign policy objectives seem to focus more on Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Anyways, there is also the possibility that there will still be a major regime change in Cuba before the current President Bush's term ends, in which case he can now claim to getting rid of two despots in two countries as his legacy.  Speaking of which, isn't the Cuban-American voting bloc in the States more Republican-leaning, IIRC?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I believe they are. Consider this, Obama is a newbie on the scene, Castro kicks it on his watch, he can change decades of US policy with minimal risks of a major backfire. Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan where his hands are somewhat tied and the risks of any move are quite high.


----------



## a_majoor

The Cuban American exile community demonstrates how American policy is really predicated on domestic concerns. The Cuban American community is perhaps _the_ driving force behind the American end of the embargo (although we should not forget that Fidel used the embargo as an excuse to deflect all blame for the failure of his policies and maintain an iron grasp on Cuba).

Once the Castro family dies or is deposed, we can expect the internal situation of Cuba to become unglued in fairly short order. I would expect that a local Mafia similar to the one plaguing Russia will seize control behind the curtain and proceed to fleece the locals, exiles trying to reclaim their property and naive Canadian and European investors and tourists. How Americans outside the exile community will fare is a bit beyond me, I expect they are not particularly interested in Cuba and will probably want to stay clear. Certainly the idea of American economic intervention, much less a US led stabilization force will attract a lot of negative opposition (although the historical record of American interventions in Cuba is actually quite good. See Max Boot, The Savage Wars of Peace.)

Russia never really had a chance, since there is very little cultural or historical experience in Democracy or Rule of Law in that country. Cuba has a stronger record, but the effects of a half century of repression may have erased that from the island. Time will tell.


----------



## CougarKing

Colin P said:
			
		

> I believe they are. Consider this, Obama is a newbie on the scene, Castro kicks it on his watch, he can change decades of US policy with minimal risks of a major backfire. Unlike Iraq or Afghanistan where his hands are somewhat tied and the risks of any move are quite high.



Still, even if Obama decides to change US policy in one-fell swoop, whether or not that policy will be effective will also depend on whether Raul Castro will still be in power if and when Obama enters office. Regime change before then? Perhaps. But if the Castros survive long enough to still be in power when Obama is in office, there might or might not be a parallel between any Obama initiative to open up to Cuba and Nixon visiting mainland China in the early 1970s. Just something to think about...



> Cuba has a stronger record, but the effects of a half century of repression may have erased that from the island. Time will tell.



Wait a minute...wasn't the dictator that Castro overthrew in 1959- Fulgencio Bautista- a repressive dictator as well?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The Cuban American exile community demonstrates how American policy is really predicated on domestic concerns. The Cuban American community is perhaps _the_ driving force behind the American end of the embargo (although we should not forget that Fidel used the embargo as an excuse to deflect all blame for the failure of his policies and maintain an iron grasp on Cuba).
> 
> Once the Castro family dies or is deposed, we can expect the internal situation of Cuba to become unglued in fairly short order. I would expect that a local Mafia similar to the one plaguing Russia will seize control behind the curtain and proceed to fleece the locals, exiles trying to reclaim their property and naive Canadian and European investors and tourists. How Americans outside the exile community will fare is a bit beyond me, I expect they are not particularly interested in Cuba and will probably want to stay clear. Certainly the idea of American economic intervention, much less a US led stabilization force will attract a lot of negative opposition (although the historical record of American interventions in Cuba is actually quite good. See Max Boot, The Savage Wars of Peace.)
> 
> Russia never really had a chance, since there is very little cultural or historical experience in Democracy or Rule of Law in that country. Cuba has a stronger record, but the effects of a half century of repression may have erased that from the island. Time will tell.



 I don't think things will come unglued, the shift of power has taken place, the players are lined up already and they have no interest in letting things go as much, it will likely be a somewhjat more relaxed form of "eternal revolution" Enough easing up to allow the embargo to be reduced/ended, in fact the embargo might actually sustain the current government, giving the people something to focus on externally.


----------



## Yrys

In Miami, muted reaction to Castro resignation



> MIAMI - There was little dancing in the streets, no widespread celebration. In Little Havana, the heart of the Cuban exile community,
> the long-awaited news that Cuban President Fidel Castro resigned brought only muted glee — and a feeling that little would change for the
> communist island many had fled.
> 
> As news of the resignation spread, motorists honked vigorously at police patrol cars and television reporters. Isolated shouts of “Free Cuba!”
> echoed in the streets, and small groups gathered to chat in local eateries. But the community’s reaction to the news, long expected to spark
> vibrant celebration, was filled with caution. “I hope this is the beginning of the end of the system, but we have to wait,” said 35-year-old
> chemist Omar Fernandez, who left Cuba for the U.S. six years ago.



Documentary on Fidel Castro by Oliver Stone. It was pulled out of cable broadcasting and only shown outside the US. 

rest of article on above link

Castro démissionne, devient un « soldat des idées »


----------



## tomahawk6

There arent many dictator's that have willingly gone into retirement and Castro is no exception. After a half century in power Fidel is content to tend his garden in his twilight years ? I think not. Raul is just as hard line as Castro so the US position wont change.


----------



## stegner

> Wait a minute...wasn't the dictator that Castro overthrew in 1959- Fulgencio Bautista- a repressive dictator as well?



Yup.


----------



## a_majoor

The primary difference between the two dictators is Fidel Castro didn't even pretend to follow the Rule of Law. I'm sure Raul doesn't feel constrained by such considerations either.

Regardless, after a 50+ year interregnum from the rule of law it may be difficult to get back on track.


----------



## geo

I truly do not understand why the US doesn't just drop the embargo to celebrate the end of Fidel's term..... flood Cuba with Americano consumerism for a while.  Cubans have done without the things we take for granted for going on 50 years now... they don,t know what they're missing.  Drop the embargo & let them see what they can thank Fidel & Raoul for.


----------



## tomahawk6

An interesting development if it goes forward. Brazil offers help but with strings attached and Raul still prefers the Brazilians to Chavez and would be an opening to the US. 

http://www.mercopress.com/vernoticia.do?id=12692&formato=HTML

Raul Castro asks Lula da Silva help with transition process
Cuba’s interim president Raul Castro requested advise and help from Brazil’s Luis Inacio Lula da Silva “to accelerate the political and economic transition process” in the island according to Wednesday edition of the prestigious Folha de Sao Paulo.

The newspaper reports that during the January Brazilian presidential visit to Havana, Raul Castro praised Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez for having helped Cuba “in a particularly tough moment of the ongoing confrontation with the United States George W Bush administration”.

Nevertheless Fidel Castro brother is quoted saying that Brazil “is a far more convenient associate than Venezuela’s Chavez”, for the transition period.

On Tuesday in an open letter the ailing Fidel Castro who underwent serious intestinal surgery in 2006 and since named his brother Raul temporary caretaker president, announced his definitive renouncement to any political, party or military post or responsibility.

The Folha de Sao Paulo piece based on data allegedly disclosed by members of the Brazilian government delegation that visited Cuba with the Brazilian president, says that Raul also requested Lula da Silva to convince United States to end the economic embargo dating back to 1962, and which President Bush has made even stricter.

The same sources added that President Lula da Silva wants to stimulate Brazilian businessmen to invest in Cuba if the project to speed political and economic transition is effectively confirmed.

“In the words of one of the ministers, Brazil is one of few countries in the world capable of having a dialogue with the Cuban regime, with Chavez and with the US government”. Besides “he’s far more useful for that purpose than the conflicting Chavez who is at loggerheads with United States and Colombia”.

According to Folha de Sao Paulo Raul Castro proposal had a good reception from President Lula da Silva: “in the dispute with Venezuela for the leadership of Latinamerica, Brazil would very much like to help Cuba in a post-Fidel Castro scenario”.

However Lula da Silva emphasized to Raul Castro that any economic advances in Cuba must run parallel to a greater political opening, according to members of the Brazilian presidential delegation that visited Havana.

Lula da Silva went further and suggested to the Cuban interim president “gestures in the field of human rights (release of political prisoners), evidence of a real transition intent and not only a follow up of the Chinese model (economic opening and iron hand in politics)”, concludes the interesting article.


----------



## Danjanou

CougarDaddy said:
			
		

> Wait a minute...wasn't the dictator that Castro overthrew in 1959- Fulgencio Bautista- a repressive dictator as well?



Yup and in 1933 then Sergeant Batista was the union leader of Cuba's soldiers, and the leader of the 1933 "Sergeants' Revolt" that replaced the provisional government of Carlos Manuel de Céspedes, at the request of the coalition that had recently ousted President Machado. 

Anyone else see a pattern here. 

On one of my frequent trips to La Isla Bonita a friend told me in confidence that in the old days a Cuban election was when they took their rifles and went up into the mountians. Who ever came down was the new Government.


----------



## geo

You may be onto something Danjanou +1

The Castro era is coming to an end.... Raul is no spring chicken = caretaker till something else will happen.
The best way for the Cuban expats to get involved in the future is for them to encourage Dubya into opening dialogue - setting the expats rights to return to Cuba as a precondition for the loosening of embargo restrictions....

And then we can start to speculate about who will be the next "great dictator".


----------



## Edward Campbell

As attractive as *democracy* is, in an Athenian, mob-rule, sort of way, it is a fragile system that requires a firm base of principles – those old _’respect for the rule of law’_ and _‘respect for the principle of equality under the law for the governed and the governors alike’_ sort of principles.

Neither principle is _traditional_ anywhere in Latin America – not in Chile, not in Mexico and not anywhere in between, either.


----------



## CougarKing

geo said:
			
		

> The Castro era is coming to an end.... Raul is no spring chicken = caretaker till something else will happen.



And Castro knows it...  :rofl:


----------



## geo

They are saying on the news that Fidel will continue on as the leader of the Communist party.  Keeping a firm/feeble hand on Raoul's policies....

Should the US blockade until Fidel is completely out of the way OR, should they open up - offer some sort of olive branch to Raoul?


----------



## tomahawk6

There should be no change at this time in US policy.


----------



## Flip

While I've heard that Raoul is a pragmatist, far more than Fidel and one might assume that a deal can be made (If Obama wins the presidency he just might) there no pressing need to.  Cuban expats see light at the end of the tunnel.  Perhaps there is another "revolution" brewing.

After all that I think T6 is correct. Keep a hand on the tiller but don't change a thing.


----------



## CougarKing

geo said:
			
		

> They are saying on the news that Fidel will continue on as the leader of the Communist party.  Keeping a firm/feeble hand on Raoul's policies....



Didn't I essentially say the same thing when I compared Fidel Castro to Deng Xiaoping earlier in the thread?



> Why do I have a feeling that if Castro has stepped down/effectively retired, (and is still alive contrary to what T6 thinks), that he may still be effectively influencing his brother Raul's decisions and pulling the strings from behind the scenes, even if he has ailing health? This case with Castro might parallel that of China's Deng Xiaoping influencing Jiang Zhemin in the mid-1990s before Deng died and when Jiang was still president, even when Deng's health slowly deteriorated till his death.


----------



## Alex252

Ahhhhhhh crap. i got to cuba in 12 days. hopefully the glorious revolution does not start while im there!!


----------



## ArcadeFire

karl28 said:
			
		

> I am hoping for the Cuban people that Democracy will help  pave the road to their new future . Than maybe they can have the embargo lifted on Cuba at the same time .



The US trades with North Korea and China. Two commi regimes that have a far worse human rights record than Cuba. The whole embargo thing is a joke and just the US posturing. If Cuba had oil you bet they would be great friends....or cheap labor....something for them to benefit.


----------



## Bane

An ease of the embargo would help Cuba move forward and reform.  US policy regarding Cuba has been more or less consistent for over forty years and produced no fruit; the time is right for _some_ kind of policy change.  US-Cuban relations are stuck a Cold War context that is less and less appropriate as the years pass.


----------



## CougarKing

ArcadeFire said:
			
		

> The US trades with North Korea and China. Two commi regimes that have a far worse human rights record than Cuba. The whole embargo thing is a joke and just the US posturing. If Cuba had oil you bet they would be great friends....or cheap labor....something for them to benefit.



Arcade, I don't think the United States trades at all with North Korea aside from supplying some humanitarian aid, though South Korea/the ROK does trade with Pyongyang on a certain level, including opening rail links between the two countries, IIRC.  And you forgot to mention Vietnam as the other "commie"/one-party regime in Southeast Asia that the US trades with.


----------



## TCBF

Bane said:
			
		

> An ease of the embargo would help Cuba move forward and reform.  US policy regarding Cuba has been more or less consistent for over forty years and produced no fruit; the time is right for _some_ kind of policy change.  US-Cuban relations are stuck a Cold War context that is less and less appropriate as the years pass.



- All Castro had to do, after nationalizing U.S. owned property, was pay the USA a measely five cents on the dollar for that which he seized.  That was it.

But, no.  Sociopaths don't reason the way you and I do, and he then unleashed that pscho Che on Africa and South America.  Che was a competent enough executioner, but was an incompetent operational commander. He got a whole bunch of his African and South American followers slaughtered through his own stupidity.  The CIA wanted him kept alive because he was doing the revolution more harm than the CIA was, but some of their hot headed Cuban operatives Exceeded their authority.

- The only thing Castro has ever been right about was biofuels driving up the price of food in the third world. He has kept Cuba in the dark ages.  A vibrant, talented and intelligent people marking time for fifty years.


----------



## fraserdw

Until the current Cuban government gives all the expats property back with interest, re-opens the gambling dens and whore houses of the US mob and gets rid of public health care, the US will never normalize relations PERIOD


----------



## TCBF

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Until the current Cuban government gives all the expats property back with interest, re-opens the gambling dens and ***** houses of the US mob and gets rid of public health care, the US will never normalize relations PERIOD



- Put money on that?

 ;D


----------



## fraserdw

Well it depends on the next mid term senate and congress elections if the expats continue to vote for the Dubya party then they will be shut out and a Democratic president (if he has leadership skills) will be able to go ahead and get this monkey of the collective US back.


----------



## TCBF

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Well it depends on the next mid term senate and congress elections if the expats continue to vote for the Dubya party then they will be shut out and a Democratic president (if he has leadership skills) will be able to go ahead and get this monkey of the collective US back.



- Like all of the other Dem Presidents have since 1960?

It was JFK who authorized the Bay Of Pigs, right?


----------



## stegner

> It was JFK who authorized the Bay Of Pigs, right?



+1 And it was RFK who came up with many a plan to kill Castro.


----------



## Yrys

Raul Castro meets top Vatican official



> HAVANA (AFP) - Cuba's new President Raul Castro on Tuesday held his first diplomatic talks since taking power, meeting the Vatican's visiting number two,
> amid signs restrictions on the press may be easing. The former defense chief, who took over from his brother Fidel Castro on Sunday, shed his traditional military
> garb as he wore a blue business suit, white shirt and tie for his meeting with Vatican Secretary of State Tarciscio Bertone at the Palace of the Revolution.
> 
> No details were immediately released about the meeting, but it followed calls by the Vatican for reform. Cuban dissidents have urged Bertone to call on the new
> president to release political prisoners. Bertone earlier said he expected "clarity" and "sincerity" in his talks with the new leader. "I have come here at a special,
> extraordinary moment," he told a joint news conference with Cuban Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque. Bertone hailed as "positive" Havana's recent freeing of
> certain prisoners, but said he had not called for amnesties.
> 
> In an earlier meeting with Catholic reporters, Bertone said Cuban officials had promised him "more openness for the press, the radio and, in exceptional cases,
> the television as well," according to Italy's Catholic news agency Sir. "Everything starts with a promise," Bertone was quoted as saying by the agency, "but we
> hope there'll be an opening, because nothing is impossible."
> 
> In a sign that press restrictions may be easing, the official newspaper Granma published Tuesday for the first time ever a statement from Cuba's Catholic Church
> -- on the parliament's election of Raul Castro on Sunday. They said they were praying the new president and parliament would "move forward decisively these
> transcendent measures that we know must be gradual, but which can satisfy the longing and worries expressed by Cubans."
> 
> Cuban television also covered a Bertone press conference from start to finish. Bertone's visit marks the 10th anniversary of a historic visit to Cuba by the late pope, John Paul II.
> 
> Castro, 76, Cuba's highest-ranking general and chief of the country's Revolutionary Armed Forces for nearly 50 years, took over after his 81-year-old brother
> announced last week he would step down due to poor health. Known as a pragmatist with solid backing from the powerful military, Raul Castro promised to stay
> faithful to the Cuban revolution and to consult his brother on major issues. And he said he would remain vigilant in the face of Cuba's powerful northern neighbor the United States.
> 
> National Assembly speaker Ricardo Alarcon, 70, said Tuesday that Raul's election was "a moment of great historical importance," because the Cuban people sent
> "a strong message of unity" to nay-sayers like the United States. He said in a television interview, "there's a combination of generations that is assuring the continuity
> of the revolution. And, something very important, the founder of the revolution (Fidel Castro) is still present." Cuba was facing "a new period of challenges," Alarcon said,
> adding that among the measures the new leadership would undertake was "restructuring the central government, ministries and central state organisms to improve their efficiency."
> 
> The US administration said Monday it would maintain its decades-long embargo on Cuba, adding there was no realistic hope of genuine reform given the lingering presence
> of hardline communist figures. Some of the 27 EU member states, led by Spain which normalized relations with Havana last year, favor definitively dropping sanctions which
> were suspended in 2005. The European Union also said it was willing to engage in a "constructive political dialogue" with Raul Castro.


----------



## ArcadeFire

CougarDaddy said:
			
		

> Arcade, I don't think the United States trades at all with North Korea aside from supplying some humanitarian aid, though South Korea/the ROK does trade with Pyongyang on a certain level, including opening rail links between the two countries, IIRC.  And you forgot to mention Vietnam as the other "commie"/one-party regime in Southeast Asia that the US trades with.



Really? I thought the US and NK traded barbs constantly. But you're right I forgot Vietnam....in any case the emargo against Cuba is only depriving them of a nice place to vacation and leaving it to Canadian tourists. Not to mention cigars. Just end the embargo and show that you are capable of being rational and not holding grudges is what I think.


----------



## TCBF

- It was the Cuban response of irrationality after their revolution that started the whole thing.  You can't seize private property then expect the victimized companies - or their nation - to do business with you again, ever, until compensation is paid.  Cuba has suffered at the hands of Cubans.


----------



## ArcadeFire

TCBF said:
			
		

> - It was the Cuban response of irrationality after their revolution that started the whole thing.  You can't seize private property then expect the victimized companies - or their nation - to do business with you again, ever, until compensation is paid.  Cuba has suffered at the hands of Cubans.



Well if they're trading with Vietnam after being at war with them for a number of years then they can trade with Cuba. And if they seize US owned property again then just invade them and get it over with.


----------



## Richie

ArcadeFire said:
			
		

> ....in any case the emargo against Cuba is only depriving them of a nice place to vacation and leaving it to Canadian tourists. Not to mention cigars. Just end the embargo and show that you are capable of being rational and not holding grudges is what I think.



Agreed. However, I don't believe Castro wants an end to the embargo for the simple reason that commercial trade leads to exposure to new ideas and ways of seeing the world. It seems to me that Castro and the Communist Party are so intent on holding a monopoly on power that they are willing to deprive the Cuban people of a higher standard of living. Washington meanwhile doesn't want to end the embargo because they don't want to be the ones to blink first after all this time  :  Perhaps after Castro finally dies, Washington will make overtures, not before.

Richie


----------



## George Wallace

I find some of this speculation amusing.  Raul Castro has more or less been running the country for the past few years.  Do seriously think that there are going to be any changes?  I don't.  At least not until Raul Castro also passes on, and that isn't to be likely for quite some time.


----------



## Richie

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I find some of this speculation amusing.  Raul Castro has more or less been running the country for the past few years.  Do seriously think that there are going to be any changes?  I don't.  At least not until Raul Castro also passes on, and that isn't to be likely for quite some time.



Raul may have been running the country for the last few years, but Fidel has become such an icon of the Cuban revolution that his death may serve as a catalyst for a detente of sorts between Cuba and the U.S. Also, Raul is known for being more pragmatic and less dogmatic than Fidel, he may be waiting for his brother's death as well.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Richie said:
			
		

> Raul may have been running the country for the last few years, but Fidel has become such an icon of the Cuban revolution that his death may serve as a catalyst for a detente of sorts between Cuba and the U.S. Also, Raul is known for being more pragmatic and less dogmatic than Fidel, he may be waiting for his brother's death as well.



Quite possibly, I suspect that the public annoucement of Castro death will allow everyone to move to towards agreements without losing face.


----------



## a_majoor

Why Cuba has been so popular with the "Left":

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/011010.html



> *Sí, no tenemos ningún logo*
> 
> Actually Cuba does. Given this clear success in branding by a true bully, I await Naomi Klein's response:
> 
> As Fidel Castro brings his reign in Cuba to a long overdue end, we are left to ponder how a leader with such a dismal economic record could retain power for a half-century.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ..if we view Castro's political machine through the apolitical prism of the market, we can attribute its durability to a concept that's alien to his socialist rhetoric, and deeply rooted in the American capitalist system he claims to despise: branding. Castro's political "success" is a case study in managing the global information economy.
> 
> The Cuban Revolution is and always has been a brand. Its face has changed over time -- from the "barbudo" rebels of the Sierra Maestra to Che Guevara's piercing stare, from Cuba's graying salsa legends to its globe-trotting medics -- but incredibly, its essence has survived.
> 
> Marketing gurus tell us that a successful brand functions as a store of values. It encapsulates a pool of attractive ideas that satisfy customers' desire for meaning. To encourage loyalty to a brand, they say, the marketer must cultivate a sense of belonging and personal identification with the individual.
> 
> For many within a core constituency of left-leaning, relatively well-educated people both inside and outside Cuba, Castro's "revolution" achieved precisely this. To this niche market, Cuba evokes a set of magical buzz words long-favored by the radical left: "resistance," "social justice," "struggle." It represents an idealized, selfless counterpoint to ruthless, greedy capitalism. It is the alternative to brand U.S.A...
> 
> [...]
> 
> Now Cuba's brand centers on health care. Its free hospitals are depicted as alternatives to an unfair, inefficient U.S. system, while its foreign-posted doctors put a face on the country's projected spirit of humanitarianism.
> 
> Some 200 of these medics turned up at last October's 40th anniversary of Che's execution in La Higuera, Bolivia. They demonstrated how the Cuban revolution's brand has been simultaneously altered and preserved through a period of sweeping transformation on the island and in the world outside it.
> 
> These doctors -- members of a 30,000-strong foreign medical corps, whose work gives Havana access to badly-needed goods like Venezuelan oil -- are unwittingly contributing to a mounting problem back home. Their absence exacerbates staffing constraints in Cuba's once well-regarded hospitals, now stretched by the demands of an aging population. Nonetheless, in the long string of speeches at La Higuera, Cuban, Venezuelan and Bolivian officials feted the physicians as model revolutionaries -- guerrillas with stethoscopes in place of rifles. And in case the branding tie-in wasn't clear, each medic was dressed in a white lab coat opened to reveal a red or blue Che T-shirt.
> 
> Ms Klein should hurl in outrage. But Canadians, with our broad anti-American streak, have for a long time been most willing customers of Brand Cuba. Selfish and self-satified fools on the beach.
> 
> As for t-shirts (tip from J.M. Heinrichs)...
> 
> Mark C.
> Posted by markc at March 11, 2008 08:44 PM


----------



## Richie

<a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080318.wcomment0318/BNStory/International/home">Link to Article</a>

Perhaps this is the beginning of the long-awaited thaw in Cuba. I hope so, but this is a big iceberg that's been around for a long time, so we may have to be patient. These are baby steps, but they seem to be leading in the right direction. Enough metaphors for one night.  

Richie


*Small steps, but Cuba is no China*

FRANÇOIS BUGINGO AND BENOÎT HERVIEU

Special to Globe and Mail Update

March 18, 2008 at 12:54 AM EDT

After acting as president since mid-2006, Raul Castro was finally appointed Cuba's head of state in his own right by the country's executive Council of State on Feb. 24. Many of the circumstances surrounding the transfer of power from his brother, Fidel, are unknown, but people are beginning to talk of a policy of "small steps." We have to recognize that this transitional government has taken a significant step in an area it had hitherto ignored: human rights.

A week before the appointment, Alejandro Gonzalez, one of 27 journalists arrested during the Black Spring of 2003 was released on health grounds, along with three other dissidents. And four days after the official handover, Cuba signed two United Nations covenants — one concerning economic, social and cultural rights; the other concerning civil and political rights.

The most radical dissidents scoffed at these steps — the government continues to hold about 240 prisoners of conscience (including 23 journalists) and tolerates no opposition, no labour freedom, no independent press. But moderates were cautiously optimistic.

For many years, Raul Castro's image was that of an inflexible general in the shadow of his elder brother. Nowadays, he is being portrayed as a pragmatist, a man of change, a sort of Cuban Mikhail Gorbachev. Mr. Castro himself seems rather to identify himself with Deng Xiaoping, the Chinese architect of (economic) change with (political) continuity. Everything for tourism and foreign investment, but nothing for human rights, political pluralism or basic freedoms.

Cuba is obviously not China. Although it is a member of the UN Human Rights Council, it has no large market to divert attention from its repressive practices. But that could be seen as to its advantage. Could Mr. Castro's regime continue for many more years to claim that keeping its dissidents in prison is a matter of national security and sovereignty? It was on the absurd grounds that the 27 journalists had violated "Cuba's territorial integrity and sovereignty" that they were arrested in 2003 and given sentences ranging from 14 to 27 years in prison, although all they did was work for non-government news media.

Nineteen of them are still in prison five years later, mistreated by their guards, deprived of medical treatment and sometimes punished with solitary confinement. Another journalist has been held without trial since 2005, and three others have been jailed on a charge of "pre-crime social dangerousness" since Mr. Castro took over in 2006. However, eight of the journalists have been released on health grounds since 2004, and it is hard for the regime to claim that those it is still holding are more harmful. The recent releases are an implicit recognition of this.

By freeing more of its political prisoners, the Cuban government would be honouring the two UN covenants it has just signed. The small step of a signature leads to bigger steps: opening prisons, and opening up to democracy.

The health and education systems Cuba has developed and the punitive U.S. embargo do not exempt the regime from respecting human rights and the rule of law. Cuba is not China, and should not try to imitate it.

François Bugingo is president of Reporters Without Borders Canada. Benoît Hervieu is head of the Americas desk for Reporters Without Borders.


----------



## geo

Unfortunately, I do not believe the US Gov't will look objectively at any Cuban gov't action (short of total abdication).  There are too many Cuban expatriates in Miami and they wield waaay too much power within the US political system.  Till the current Cuban Gov't is overthrown AND the expats are given back every single last expropriated asset back, the expats will not be satisfied... which means the expats will continue to pressure the US gov't to maintain status quo OR increase the blocade.


----------



## Richie

geo said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I do not believe the US Gov't will look objectively at any Cuban gov't action (short of total abdication).  There are too many Cuban expatriates in Miami and they wield waaay too much power within the US political system.  Till the current Cuban Gov't is overthrown AND the expats are given back every single last expropriated asset back, the expats will not be satisfied... which means the expats will continue to pressure the US gov't to maintain status quo OR increase the blocade.



I think that's only part of the story.

Raul has been "setting the table" to invite the Americans for a business lunch. The tentative steps he has taken as outlined in the article I posted above are proof of that. He can continue to take these steps but I believe he's really waiting for two things:

1.) The death of his brother.
2.) The outcome of the U.S. election

There are other actors in this unfolding drama: U.S. corporations. They've been watching Canadian and European corporations operate in Cuba for years now, wishing that they could get in on the action. Who holds more sway on the American political landscape: Cuban expats or American corporations? This is not a rhetorical question, I honestly don't know the answer.

Right now, Raul can continue to ease up on human rights abuses, set chairs at his table for the Americans and then wait like the rest of us to see the outcome of November's election. If the Republicans win, he will likely dine alone; if either Clinton or Obama win, he may well have a guest at his table.

At any rate, the Americans are looking inward right now due to their election; Raul can continue arranging the silverware and then sit and wait until the election is over and Americans start looking at what he's done.

Interesting times ahead for Cuba.

Richie


----------



## geo

A lot of US corporations did own assets in Cuba & some hunger to get everything back.  But they are lobbyists VS the cuban expats who are members of the American electorate.... they,ve all taken out US citzenship and wield power in Florida & in Washington via their votes.
I think that Raul can stand on his head and dance up the street to the White House in his birthday suit as much as he wants - nothing will come of it until all the doors are open and the Cuban comunists fold up their tents and clear out.


----------



## Richie

Don't ever underestimate the power of lobbyists in Washington; they can have a _very_ powerful effect on how Congress votes, regardless of how the people have voted. Unfortunate, but a reality in today's world. 

I'm not denying the role played by Cuban expats on this issue by any means, but don't dismiss the power of corporations in shaping the foreign policy of any modern democracy.

I'd like to see the communists out of Cuba as much as anyone, but I believe that it will be a gradual process with steps taken by both Havana and Washington. A meeting halfway.


----------



## a_majoor

An assessment of Castro's rule

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/011062.html



> *What might have been*
> 
> The Calgary Herald's Mark Milke compares pre-Castro Cuba to other nations which were even less well-off at the time:
> 
> In 1958, the year before Fidel Castro came to power in a revolution and promised prosperity, democracy and the restoration of Cuba's 1940 constitution, the Caribbean island, while troubled by poverty, a corrupt dictator and the American Mafia, was also better off than most developing nations.
> 
> While poor compared to the United States, Cuba in 1958 had a per capita GDP of $3,170 according to the OECD. (Canada's was $8,947.). But Cuba outranked all other Latin American countries except four: Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Venezuela.
> 
> *Tellingly, in 1958, the island nation's per person wealth was higher than any East Asian country or colony, save Japan, which barely beat Cuba at only $3,290. Hong Kong had a per capita GDP of $2,924, Singapore's was $2,294, the Philippines' was $1,447, Taiwan's per person GDP stood at $1,387 and South Korea's was $1,112.*
> 
> Thus in 1958, Cuba was almost as rich as Japan, one and half times as wealthy as Singapore, richer than Hong Kong, and three times as prosperous as South Korea.
> 
> Fifty years later, Cuba is one of the poorest countries in Latin America.
> 
> *Meanwhile, jurisdictions such as Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan (the latter two also had dictators and problems similar to Cuba in the 1950s) have long eclipsed Cuba. They've done so not only in per capita wealth, but in measurements Castro's defenders point to when they assert the Marxist revolution "worked," such as in health care and education.* [via Arts & Letters Daily]
> 
> Yeah, but do any of their leaders look so cool on a T-shirt?


----------



## geo

Thucydidies,
the 1958 study you quote includes Japan, HongKong, South Korea & Taiwan.... all countries that were in the process of recovering from WW2.  The money invested in rebuilding alone would guarantee improvement in GNP.

All of those countries were not blockaded by their closest nieghbour - the USA

Why didn't they also include some other countries like NORTH Korea or Burma.... beause their deductions wouldn't have worked with those countries.


----------



## CougarKing

geo said:
			
		

> Thucydidies,
> the 1958 study you quote includes Japan, HongKong, South Korea & Taiwan.... all countries that were in the process of recovering from WW2.  The money invested in rebuilding alone would guarantee improvement in GNP.
> 
> All of those countries were not blockaded by their closest nieghbour - the USA
> 
> Why didn't they also include some other countries like NORTH Korea or Burma.... beause their deductions wouldn't have worked with those countries.



Hong Kong, South Korea and Taiwan all became prosperous and became 3 of East Asia's Asian Tiger economies not only through US aid, but through the use of IMPORT SUBSTITUTION over time.

As for your question on North Korea and Burma- wasn't the DPRK/North Korea a strong Sino-Soviet ally especially at this time during the height of the Cold War- so I doubt your said deductions apply to it. While Burma was its own mess after leaving British rule, IIRC.


----------



## NL_engineer

Richie said:
			
		

> Don't ever underestimate the power of lobbyistsRetirement Planners in Washington; they can have a _very_ powerful effect on how Congress votes, regardless of how the people have voted. Unfortunate, but a reality in today's world.



I had to make the change, the whole lobbyist system is all about how much does your vote cost.

just my 2 cents


----------



## Richie

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> I had to make the change, the whole lobbyist system is all about how much does your vote cost.
> 
> just my 2 cents



No argument here. Lobbyists have a very corruptive influence on the democratic process and not just in the States. They also seem very solidly entrenched, it'll be difficult to get them out. However, in this case, they may prove themselves useful by countering the influence of the Cuban community in Florida. I stand by my earlier posts to the effect that relations between Cuba and the US can be normalized slowly once Fidel is gone and American companies start pressuring Congress to at least talk to the Cuban government. To meet halfway would be better for all concerned, in my opinion.


----------



## a_majoor

While circumstances are obviously different, the overall difference is the "Tigers" (and other examples like the Republic of Ireland and India) have adopted the precepts of free markets, personal liberty and the Rule of Law while Cuba, Burma and North Korea did not. 

It is economic liberalization rather than the "Permit Raj" or similar bureaucracies which create wealth. We will see this experiment repeated yet again in Ontario, as the Liberals engage in Tax and Spend Keynesian economics while Alberta and the Federal government are more geared towards Classical economics.


----------



## CougarKing

As if people aren't already using cellphones and watching pirated DVDs in Cuba.  :

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/03/28/cuba.cellphones.ap/index.html



> *Ordinary Cubans gain access to cell service*
> 
> Story Highlights
> *Raul Castro's new government now allows citizens to have cell phones
> 
> Previously only those working for foreign firms or the state could have cell phones
> 
> Raul took power in Cuba after his brother, Fidel, stepped down last month
> 
> Some Cubans had already gotten phones with the help of foreigners*
> 
> HAVANA, Cuba (AP) --* President Raul Castro's government said Friday it is allowing cell phones for ordinary Cubans, a luxury previously reserved for those who worked for foreign firms or held key posts with the communist-run state.*
> 
> It was the first official announcement of the lifting of a major restriction under the 76-year-old Castro, and marked the kind of small freedom many on the island have been hoping he would embrace since succeeding his older brother Fidel as president last month.
> 
> Some Cubans previously ineligible for cell phones had already gotten them by having foreigners sign contracts in their names, but mobile phones are not nearly as common in Cuba as elsewhere in Latin America or the world.
> 
> Telecommunications monopoly Empresa de Telecomunicaciones de Cuba S.A., or ETECSA said it would allow the general public to sign prepaid contracts in Cuban Convertible Pesos, which are geared toward tourists and foreigners and worth 24 times the regular pesos Cuban state employees are paid in.
> 
> The decree was published in a small black box on page 2 of the Communist Party newspaper Granma.
> 
> The government controls well over 90 percent of the economy and while the communist system ensures most Cubans have free housing, education and health care and receive ration cards that cover basic food needs, the average monthly state salary is just 408 Cuban pesos, a little less than $20.
> 
> A program in Convertible Pesos likely will ensure that cell phone service will be too expensive for many Cubans, but ETECSA's statement said doing so will allow it to improve telecommunication systems using cable technology and eventually expand the services it offers in regular pesos.
> 
> The statement promised further instructions in coming days about how the new plan will be implemented, and there were no lines of would-be customers mobbing ETECSA outlets as they opened for business.
> 
> ETECSA is a mixed enterprise that operates with foreign capital from the Italian communications firm Italcom.


----------



## a_majoor

CougarDaddy said:
			
		

> As if people aren't already using cellphones and watching pirated DVDs in Cuba.  :
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/03/28/cuba.cellphones.ap/index.html



While some people probably are, without the cell phone infrastructure most people cannot (and given the way cell phone technology works, it would actually be dangerous to use a cell phone, particularly if you are not part of the "elite"). As for DVD's, first you need to have a television and a DVD player, items most Cubans are unable to buy given their low incomes and lack of a reliable source of supply.


----------



## NL_engineer

Thucydides said:
			
		

> While some people probably are, without the cell phone infrastructure most people cannot (and given the way cell phone technology works, it would actually be dangerous to use a cell phone, particularly if you are not part of the "elite"). As for DVD's, first you need to have a television and a DVD player, items most Cubans are unable to buy given their low incomes and lack of a reliable source of supply.



Can you explain how cell phones are a danger (and don't get into driving with them, as some the Cuban drivers I've seen make Canada's worst look good  :)

In most of the developing world, the cell phone is the only phone people use/have seen.


----------



## Greymatters

Thucydides said:
			
		

> While some people probably are, without the cell phone infrastructure most people cannot (and given the way cell phone technology works, it would actually be dangerous to use a cell phone, particularly if you are not part of the "elite"). As for DVD's, first you need to have a television and a DVD player, items most Cubans are unable to buy given their low incomes and lack of a reliable source of supply.



I dont recall seeing a single DVD player, or even VCR player, the entire time I was there...  although I was only there for 2 weeks, so who knows what treasures were overlooked, possibly a laser disk player or even a Beta player?  Wasnt really looking for it but most places (home, hotel or bar) made do with the standard television, usually set on the local news, sports, or music channel. 

Although many places had computers, those in private residences were apparently strictly controlled (if not monitored) by the government, and foreigners were told they had to use the public internet cafes if they wanted internet access. 

Many tourists had cell hones, but very few locals citizens had them.  Those that did were most often recognized as acting in some form of 'government employee' status... 

Reference black market stuff like CDs, DVDs etc, it might be available in underground black markets and in the homes of the 'upper class', but none of that was for sale at any public markets...


----------



## geo

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> In most of the developing world, the cell phone is the only phone people use/have seen.


Years ago I worked for a company that pressure treated wood for the Utilities - local & abroad...
1.  Installing a network of utility poles and running cables through wild country requires a lot of resources developping countries don't have... MUCH easier to set up the individual antennaes needed to support a cell network.

2.  Local natives see utility poles and railway ties as "WOOD" - the stuff they burn in order to keep warm & / or cook... so ties and poles have had a tendency to dissapear really fast.  We would be asked to put in 2-3 times the usual amount of creosote or oil into the wood.... so that when burned it would smoke soo bad that it MIGHT discourage the natives from stealing and burning them.


----------



## Greymatters

geo said:
			
		

> 2.  Local natives see utility poles and railway ties as "WOOD" - the stuff they burn in order to keep warm & / or cook... so ties and poles have had a tendency to dissapear really fast.  We would be asked to put in 2-3 times the usual amount of creosote or oil into the wood.... so that when burned it would smoke soo bad that it MIGHT discourage the natives from stealing and burning them.



Its very annoying to be driving along a road come up to a bridge and almost drive into a river because the locals have taken most of the wooden bridge ties for personal use...


----------



## a_majoor

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> Can you explain how cell phones are a danger (and don't get into driving with them, as some the Cuban drivers I've seen make Canada's worst look good  :)
> 
> In most of the developing world, the cell phone is the only phone people use/have seen.



Since cellular signals are routed through centralized infrastructure, it is quite easy to do things like track people's location (triangulating the location of a cell phone between cell towers predates GPS enabled cell phones), and of course the secret police can easily monitor conversations and data transfers by tapping into the cellular network and public internet cafe's. Reputed American surveillance systems like "Echelon" and "Carnivore" are trying to catch up with the all encompassing secret police techniques developed by the Cheka starting in the October Revolution, and adopted by all the various satellites since.

Cell phones and laptop computers provide lots of technical information to people who want to observe the network, and anyone silly enough to bring their personal laptop to Cuba, China or other socialist paradises would be well advised in my view to do a "Format C" when they get home and do a clean reinstall of all software. (Same advice for LINUX and Mac OS or OSX based computers too, by the way.) If you store a lot of data on your cell phone/Blackberry/iPhone, best get a fresh SIM card installed *before* you arrive on their sunny shores.


----------



## geo

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Its very annoying to be driving along a road come up to a bridge and almost drive into a river because the locals have taken most of the wooden bridge ties for personal use...



Ayup, that's what the local utilities are counting on - jam so much creosote & / or Pole oil into the wood that it oozes it's fluids AND make it soo unpleasant that they won't bother to chop em down...

- and this has happened in Sudan, Turkey, Lybia, Iran.  (from personal experience)


----------



## NL_engineer

Thucydides, I see what you are saying, I wasn't thinking about that aspect at all.


----------



## CougarKing

Greymatters said:
			
		

> I dont recall seeing a single DVD player, or even VCR player...
> 
> ...Reference black market stuff like CDs, DVDs etc, it might be available in underground black markets and in the homes of the 'upper class', but none of that was for sale at any public markets...



Well you'll be seeing a lot more of them in Cuba especially with this latest development:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080402/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cuba_consumer_goods

Castro is just nearly 30 years behind Deng Xiaoping when Deng first opened up mainland China to trade with Western nations as well as capitalism with an "open door policy" in the early 1980s.



> *Castro reforms: DVDs, farms for Cubans*
> By WILL WEISSERT, Associated Press Writer
> 1 minute ago
> 
> Cubans snapped up DVD players, motorbikes and pressure cookers for the first time Tuesday as Raul Castro's new government loosened controls on consumer goods and invited private farmers to plant tobacco, coffee and other crops on unused state land.
> 
> Combined with other reforms announced in recent days, the measures suggest real changes are being driven by the new president, who vowed when he took over from his brother Fidel to remove some of the more irksome limitations on the daily lives of Cubans.
> 
> Analysts wondered how far the communist government is willing to go.
> 
> "Cuban people can't survive on the salaries people are paying them. Average men and women have been screaming that at the top of their lungs for many years," said Felix Masud-Piloto, director of the Center for Latino Research at DePaul University. "Now after many years, the government is listening."
> 
> Many of the shoppers filling stores Tuesday lamented the fact that the goods are unaffordable on the government salaries they earn. But that didn't stop them from lining up to see electronic gadgets previously available only to foreigners and companies.
> 
> "They should have done this a long time ago," one man said as he left a store with a red and silver electric motorbike that cost $814. The Chinese-made bikes can be charged with an electric cord and had been barred for general sale because officials feared a strain on the power grid.
> 
> On Monday, the Tourism Ministry announced that any Cuban with enough money can now stay in luxury hotels and rent cars, doing away with restrictions that made ordinary people feel like second-class citizens. And last week, Cuba said citizens will be able to get cell phones legally in their own names, a luxury long reserved for the lucky few.
> 
> The land initiative, however, potentially could put more food on the table of all Cubans and bring in hard currency from exports of tobacco, coffee and other products, providing the cash inflows needed to spur a new consumer economy.
> 
> Government television said 51 percent of arable land is underused or fallow, and officials are transferring some of it to individual farmers and associations representing small, private producers. According to official figures, cooperatives already control 35 percent of arable land — and produce 60 percent of the island's agricultural output.
> 
> "Everyone who wants to produce tobacco will be given land to produce tobacco, and it will be the same with coffee," said Orlando Lugo, president of Cuba's national farmers association.
> 
> The change is a sharp contrast to the early days of Cuba's revolution, when the government forced or encouraged private farmers to turn their land over to the state or form government-controlled collective farms. But without more details, it was difficult to tell the significance of program, which began last year but was announced only this week.
> 
> "If this means all land that's not being used, like for private farmers, cooperatives and state farms, is available, that's positive," said Carmelo Mesa-Lago, a Cuba economics expert at the University of Pittsburgh. "Assuming, of course, they have the freedom to sow and sell whatever they want."
> 
> Lines formed before the doors opened at the Galerias Paseos shopping center on Havana's famed seaside Malecon boulevard, and shoppers wasted little time once inside. But there was no sign yet of computers and microwaves, highly anticipated items that clerks across Havana insisted would appear soon on store shelves, with desktop computers retailing for around $650.
> 
> Cuba's communist system was founded on promoting social and economic equality, but that doesn't mean Cubans can't have DVD players, said Mercedes Orta, who rushed to gawk at the new products.
> 
> "Socialism has nothing to do with living comfortably," she said.
> 
> Lines outside electronics boutiques and specialty shops are common in Cuba because guards limit how many people can be inside at a time. But waits were longer and aisles more packed than usual at Havana's best-known stores.
> 
> "DVDs are over there, down that aisle," an employee in a white short-sleeved shirt repeated over and over as shoppers wandered into La Copa, an electronics and grocery store across from the Copacabana Hotel.
> 
> "Very good! DVD players on sale for everybody," exclaimed Clara, an elderly woman peering at a black JVC console. "Of course nobody has the money to buy them." Like many Cubans, Clara chatted freely but wouldn't give her full name to a foreign reporter.
> 
> Government stores offered all products in convertible pesos — hard currency worth 24 times the regular pesos state employees get paid. The government controls well over 90 percent of the economy and the average state salary is just 408 regular pesos a month, about $19.50.
> 
> Still, most Cubans have access to at least some convertible pesos thanks to jobs with foreign firms or in tourism, or cash sent by relatives living in the United States.
> 
> Graciela Jaime, a 68-year-old retired clothes factory employee, complained that widespread corruption and greed has created a class of rich Cubans.
> 
> "Everyone wants to spend money and that is what's happening," she said. "If everything they earned went to the state like it should, there wouldn't be as much corruption as there is."
> 
> Associated Press writer Katherine Corcoran in Mexico City contributed to this report.


----------



## geo

Let's face it, the US could drop the embargo tomorrow.
Cuba could/would be flooded US tourists AND US consumer goods.  Given that their economy would be completely unable to deal with the situation, it wouldn't take too long for the Gov't to colapse...

But the US Administration won't do it.


----------



## Greymatters

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Since cellular signals are routed through centralized infrastructure, it is quite easy to do things like track people's location (triangulating the location of a cell phone between cell towers predates GPS enabled cell phones), and of course the secret police can easily monitor conversations and data transfers by tapping into the cellular network and public internet cafe's. Reputed American surveillance systems like "Echelon" and "Carnivore" are trying to catch up with the all encompassing secret police techniques developed by the Cheka starting in the October Revolution, and adopted by all the various satellites since.
> 
> Cell phones and laptop computers provide lots of technical information to people who want to observe the network, and anyone silly enough to bring their personal laptop to Cuba, China or other socialist paradises would be well advised in my view to do a "Format C" when they get home and do a clean reinstall of all software. (Same advice for LINUX and Mac OS or OSX based computers too, by the way.) If you store a lot of data on your cell phone/Blackberry/iPhone, best get a fresh SIM card installed *before* you arrive on their sunny shores.



It is also one of the simpler status symbol tools that can be operated by even the most uneducated sheepherder...


----------



## NL_engineer

> *Cuba has marked the 50th anniversary of the revolution that brought Fidel Castro to power, creating a communist state on the United States' doorstep*.
> 
> President Raul Castro, who took over from Fidel last year, spoke from below the same balcony where his brother declared victory on 1 January 1959.
> 
> He predicted the revolution would survive another 50 years.
> 
> The festivities have been muted as Cuba struggles with big economic challenges and the aftermath of three hurricanes.
> 
> Reacting to the anniversary, a White House spokesman said the US continued to seek freedom for the Cuban people.
> 
> Series of concerts
> 
> Addressing the nation from the south-eastern city of Santiago de Cuba, Raul Castro said the next 50 years "will also be of permanent struggle".
> 
> 
> Raul Castro speaks in Santiago de Cuba, Cuba, 1 January 2009
> 
> In pictures: Cuba anniversary
> "With the firm promise that in this land we can always exclaim with pride that glory to our heroes and martyrs. Long live Fidel, long live the revolution, long live free Cuba!" said President Castro.
> 
> He was speaking from the very place where his elder brother proclaimed victory after the US-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista had fled the country 40 years ago.
> 
> He spoke proudly of the 1959 revolution that transformed the Caribbean island into a communist state 145 km (90 miles) from US shores, but warned the country should remain vigilant.
> 
> "The enemy will never cease to be aggressive, treacherous and dominant," he said.
> 
> "It is time to reflect on the future, on the next 50 years when we shall continue to struggle incessantly.
> 
> "I'm not trying to scare anyone, this is the truth," he added.
> 
> A series of free concerts had been planned across the island, but the authorities said it was not the time for lavish celebrations after the nation suffered one of the most difficult financial years since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
> 
> Towering presence
> 
> The frail health of Fidel Castro has also dampened the mood of anniversary celebrations, says the BBC's Michael Voss in Havana.
> 
> CUBAN REVOLUTION MAPPED
> Map of Cuba
> 
> Follow the rebels' progress
> Cuba timeline
> 
> The 82-year-old has not been seen in public since undergoing major surgery almost 18 months ago. There was no pre-recorded message on state television on New Year's Eve nor one of his regular newspaper editorials to mark the event.
> 
> Nonetheless, he remains a towering presence in Cuba, even in the background.
> 
> Raul Castro has introduced some limited reforms since he has been in charge, but many Cubans believe that as long as Fidel is alive, no meaningful political or economic change will happen, correspondents say.
> 
> Fifty years on, the legacy of the revolution is complex. There is free education and health care but the state-controlled economy means wages for many Cubans are very low, on average about $20 to $25 a month.



more on LINK


----------



## geo

Did CUBA need a revolution in the 50s to dispose of a corrupt government ???

Absolutely!

Does Marxist/Leninist doctrine serve the Cuban people today ???
Absolutely not!

Unfortunately - so long as Fidel Castro lives - nothing more than window dressing will ever happen.  His brother Raoul doesn't have the testicular fortitude to do anything more.....

I think that with the arrival of Barak Obama as President of the USofA
and a certain amount of support by Cuban americans for the removal of the current and longstanding embargo
the time may be right for a normalisation of relations with this small corner of the world.


----------



## PanaEng

geo said:
			
		

> Did CUBA need a revolution in the 50s to dispose of a corrupt government ???
> 
> Absolutely!
> 
> Does Marxist/Leninist doctrine serve the Cuban people today ???
> Absolutely not!


Only two things can be said that the revolution has done for the Cuban people: increased literacy - more schools, better education - and, maybe arguably, better health services; although, the health infrastructure and supplies are in very bad shape, Cuba has an extensive network of health professionals.

At the cost of liberties and the lives of thousands of opponents and dissidents.



			
				geo said:
			
		

> Unfortunately - so long as Fidel Castro lives - nothing more than window dressing will ever happen.  His brother Raoul doesn't have the testicular fortitude to do anything more.....
> 
> I think that with the arrival of Barak Obama as President of the USofA
> and a certain amount of support by Cuban americans for the removal of the current and longstanding embargo


That's where you are mistaken.
It is well known that the Cuban exiles are the prime opponents of any easing of pressure from the current regime. Most cheered when the Helms-Burton act was enacted. They are the more staunch Republican supporters and a big part, if not critical, in GW Bush win of the US presidency - they will not stand for any changes in policy short of the overthrow of the current regime and the return of their land, possessions and status. (mostly my opinions but can easily be corroborated - but I don't have the energy at the moment )
There have been signs of Raul's softening stance and more pragmatic/progressive approach but he has to move slowly for his own skin. The exiles will also do their best to scuttle any conciliatory move from the US gov.

cheers,
Frank


----------



## Matt_Fisher

PanaEng said:
			
		

> Only two things can be said that the revolution has done for the Cuban people: increased literacy - more schools, better education - and, maybe arguably, better health services; although, the health infrastructure and supplies are in very bad shape, Cuba has an extensive network of health professionals.



Well, actually you could add a 3rd to that:  Organic Permaculture.  When Soviet/Eastern Block aid was withdrawn in the late 80's early 90's, the Cuban economy fell into a serious state of crisis, to include agricultural imports such as fertilizers and pesticides.  Out of necessity, the Cubans developed a system of sustainable, organic based agriculture to feed its population. i.e. 50% of Havana's food requirements are grown within city limits, using organic methods.  Without access to cheap fossil fuels for transport, chemical fertilizers, pesticides and insecticides, Canadians would be in a famine situation the scale of Ethiopia in the 80's.   We could definitely learn a thing or two from them in that regard.


----------



## DBA

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Well, actually you could add a 3rd to that:  Organic Permaculture.  When Soviet/Eastern Block aid was withdrawn in the late 80's early 90's, the Cuban economy fell into a serious state of crisis, to include agricultural imports such as fertilizers and pesticides.  Out of necessity, the Cubans developed a system of sustainable, organic based agriculture to feed its population. i.e. 50% of Havana's food requirements are grown within city limits, using organic methods.  Without access to cheap fossil fuels for transport, chemical fertilizers, pesticides and insecticides, Canadians would be in a famine situation the scale of Ethiopia in the 80's.   We could definitely learn a thing or two from them in that regard.



So would Cubans as they don't grow enough to feed themselves and import from places like Canada. 
Cuban purchasing agency Alimport buying Canadian foods over US foods.

For 2007 seems Canada sold 150,000 tons of wheat to Cuba which has a population of around 11.3 million. That works out to 13kg of wheat per person in the entire country for that year and only for wheat from Canada. They also buy a lot of other products from Canada and other countries.


----------



## oligarch

PanaEng said:
			
		

> Only two things can be said that the revolution has done for the Cuban people: increased literacy - more schools, better education - and, maybe arguably, better health services; although, the health infrastructure and supplies are in very bad shape, Cuba has an extensive network of health professionals.



I love Cuba! But anyway. During my last trip to Cuba we rented a car and looked around. It seemed a lot safer and nicer than the Dominican Republic. Overall, their is about the same quality of life as a simmilar "non-communist" country nearby, except that the other had perhaps a little more of a gap between the rich and poor. But overall there is not much difference from what I saw. 

On another note, in Dominican its better to stay on the resort. In Cuba I highly recommend travelling around (some of the smaller cities, not their capitals where everyone goes).

And Cubans seemed happier.... in Cuba I wasn't offerred herion or whores and mainly nobody bothered me too much.

Cheers!


----------



## Yrys

Castro reflects on health, praises Obama

HAVANA, Cuba (CNN) -- Former Cuban President Fidel Castro said Thursday he doubts 
he'll still have the "privilege" of observing world events in four years, cryptically indicating 
awareness that he is drawing ever closer to death. Castro, 82, made the remarks in closing 
the latest edition of his "Reflections" essays that typically are posted on a government Web 
site the day before they are published in state newspapers.

The seven-paragraph essay discusses the inauguration and coming term of President Obama, 
a topic Castro also addressed in an edition of "Reflections" published Wednesday. "I've had the 
rare privilege to observe events over a long time," Castro wrote. "I receive information and think 
about the events. I don't expect to have that privilege in four years when Obama's first term has 
finished."

After those words, Castro's signature appears, followed by the time -- 6:30 p.m. -- and the date, 
January 22.

Before Wednesday, Castro had not posted an essay since mid-December, and no photographs of 
him had appeared since November. Once the 50th anniversary of Cuba's revolution passed on 
January 1 with no comments from the revolutionary leader, rumors circulated that he had fallen 
seriously ill or perhaps had died. Though photographs occasionally surface, he has not been seen 
in public since he ceded power temporarily to his younger brother in July 2006 after suffering from 
an undisclosed illness, often thought to be of his digestive system. He handed power to Raul Castro 
permanently in February 2008.

But Argentina's official news agency reported that Castro had met with Argentine President Cristina 
Fernandez de Kirchner on Wednesday and that the Cuban leader appeared "very well." "We talked 
about all subjects," Kirchner said. "I found him very well. We talked about the international situation."

In Thursday's essay, Castro said that Obama "has transformed himself under the inspiration of 
Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. to the point of becoming a living symbol of the American 
dream."


----------



## CougarKing

Another update:



> *Russia to help train, modernize Cuban Military*
> 
> http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090918/156170428.html
> 
> HAVANA, September 18 (RIA Novosti) - *Modernization of the Soviet-made military equipment and training of Cuban military personnel will be the focus of Russian-Cuban military cooperation in the near future, the chief of the Russian General Staff said on Friday.
> 
> Gen. Nikolai Makarov arrived on a working visit to Cuba on Monday, met with Cuban President Raul Castro and the country's military leadership, and visited a number of military installations.*
> "During the Soviet era we delivered a large number of military equipment to Cuba, and after all these years most of this weaponry has become obsolete and needs repairs," Makarov said.
> (...)
> *Although the Cuban leadership has repeatedly said it has no intention of resuming military cooperation with Russia after the surprise closure of the Russian electronic listening post in Lourdes in 2001, bilateral military ties seem to have been improving following the visit of Russian Security Council chief Nikolai Patrushev and Russian Deputy Prime Minister Igor Sechin to Cuba in July last year.
> 
> A group of Russian warships, led by the Admiral Chabanenko destroyer visited Cuba in December last year during a Caribbean tour. *


----------



## Sythen

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/world/archives/2012/04/20120409-165651.html



> OTTAWA - Fidel Castro, Cuba's ailing former dictator, has written an article in which he blasts Canada and Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
> In an article published Sunday by a Cuban news agency, the 85-year-old calls out Harper and Canada for not taking sides in the "thorny issue" of the Falklands Islands dispute. Castro also takes issue with Canadian mining activities in Latin America.
> 
> But he's not just critical of mining in the southern hemisphere.
> 
> He singles out the "yankees" for having "forced" Canada to extract bitumen from Alberta's oilsands, "causing irreparable damage to the environment of this beautiful and vast country."



My favorite part is when he asked are we, 'a colony, a republic or a monarchy.'.. There should be a none of the above option


----------



## Scott

Am I going to cancel my trip to Varadero for this? Naw. And methinks Harper isn't going to pay much attention to begin with.


----------



## aesop081

Fidel who ?


----------



## Brad Sallows

That's OK.  Castro turned his country into a sh1thole by retarding its economic and social progress, and the world knows it.


----------



## OldSolduer

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> That's OK.  Castro turned his country into a sh1thole by retarding its economic and social progress, and the world knows it.



You and I know that BUT there are lots of our fellow citizens who think Fidel is OK as long as they can vacation in Cuba in private resorts. The only Cuban you'll find there is the one that makes your bed or serves you drinks. I just wonder how much the Cubans despise us for using their country as a cheap warm place to go when it gets a bit cold here.

I oppose going to Cuba for political and economic reasons. Its STILL a Communist country and I abhor that style of government. AND consider the fact that the average working Cuban makes diddly squat.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I go there. 

Rant ends.


----------



## LineJumper

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> You and I know that BUT there are lots of our fellow citizens who think Fidel is OK as long as they can vacation in Cuba in private resorts. The only Cuban you'll find there is the one that makes your bed or serves you drinks. I just wonder how much the Cubans despise us for using their country as a cheap warm place to go when it gets a bit cold here.
> 
> I oppose going to Cuba for political and economic reasons. Its STILL a Communist country and I abhor that style of government. AND consider the fact that the average working Cuban makes diddly squat.
> 
> It'll be a cold day in hell before I go there.
> 
> Rant ends.



I agree with all but the smoke. Dominican makes a fine product, however, the Cuban leaf is superior to any I've tasted on this fine planet. Cancer take me, but that is my view.


----------



## Journeyman

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> You and I know that BUT there are lots of our fellow citizens who think Fidel is OK as long as they can vacation in Cuba in private resorts. The only Cuban you'll find there is the one that makes your bed or serves you drinks. I just wonder how much the Cubans despise us for using their country as a cheap warm place to go when it gets a bit cold here....


I suspect that your politics colours your view of what they think. I'm not Kreskin, but the Cubans working the resorts seemed quite happy with us. Those we met off the resort didn't seem to despise us at all. Yes, they get paid little; however, their cost of living doesn't require massive pay cheques. They're terrific people, who've got some great "dumb American" jokes. 

I'm not a fan of their government, but my government pisses me off quite regularly too.

I had a blast; I'd go back in a heartbeat, but I've been told we're doing Jamaica next.


----------



## Danjanou

JM Swim up bars ain't as nice in Jamaica, nor are the cigars, but the rum is tolerable. 8)

And that shows the extent of my impression on Fidel's latest rant. Time for hom to go back to his nap and let little brother continue to pretend to run the place.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Besides some lefty pinkos, does anyone really care what that walking cadaver thinks? He was done when Raul took over. Wheel him out on the furniture cart once in awhile to wave at the masses, a la Weekend at Bernie's.


----------



## Haletown

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Fidel who ?



Pierre Trudeau's BFF & pall bearer, you know "him".


----------



## OldSolduer

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I suspect that your politics colours your view of what they think. I'm not Kreskin, but the Cubans working the resorts seemed quite happy with us.



You are correct. Politics does colour my view.


----------



## cupper

I gotta go with Ozzie Guillen on this. ;D



> "I respect Fidel Castro, You know why? A lot of people have wanted to kill Fidel Castro for the last 60 years, but that [guy] is still here."



Grant you, Ozzie's not the best role model to have right now, unless you want a bad case of athlete's tongue, from foot in mouth disease. :nod:


----------



## Jungle

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> You are correct. Politics does colour my view.



Same here; every year, thousands of Cubans try to "illegally" leave the island. I refuse to spend my money there until the Cubans are free to move around and to choose who will govern their country; the most important point being when they stop keeping people in prison because they are "against the regime". There are enough places in the Carribean for me to enjoy... which I do.

But I will not protest, try to convince people to change their vacation destinations or setup an "Occupy Havana". It's just about me, spending my money according to my values.


----------



## PuckChaser

Castro doesn't like us? I think we're doing something right.


----------



## asianhistorian

If any military officer or subordinate who goes to the Soviet Union was blacklisted in the USA and whose actions are presumed to be prima facie case of espionage because it is a communist country, why not travels to Cuba which is more communist than the Old Soviet Union. We have to accept the fact that Cuba has all the last aces in their sleeves when it comes to dealing with foreigners. They can blackmail anybody they wish to make them work for them as a spy. Places where our wives change clothes or take baths are replete with hidden cameras. They can sell them to Playboy or the mob as punishment for not working for them as spies. My ex-girlfriend who used to travel to Cuba to 'enjoy the sun' cannot look at me straight in the eye nowadays.


----------



## Jarnhamar

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> My ex-girlfriend who used to travel to Cuba to 'enjoy the sun' cannot look at me straight in the eye nowadays.



She found videos of you naked taking a bath?


----------



## asianhistorian

The enthusiastic type who fell for me for my intellect finally became cold upon her discovery that I wrote a book critical of Fidel. She cannot really look at me straight in they eye. `I`m scared of you, ___ (me)``


----------



## Jarnhamar

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> The enthusiastic type who fell for me for my intellect finally became cold upon her discovery that I wrote a book critical of Fidel. She cannot really look at me straight in they eye. `I`m scared of you, ___ (me)``



it's good that shes scared of you man. That's the basis of all relationships.

fear and discipline.

Tell her that your next book will mention her selling castro's secrets unless she puts on a happy face near your friends.


----------



## asianhistorian

I would  like to think it that way too, my friend. Then there be lesser problems. But where's the catch? Twenty years from now, she will unlock your door to her handlers, look at you straight in they eye and  say, "look, we gave you a gift which you cannot acquire no matter how rich you are", "you should give everyone her due".....or her due...' A honeybun!


----------



## uptheglens

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> Oh freddled gruntbuggly
> thy micurations are to me
> as plurdled gabbleblotchits
> on a lurgid bee.



That's about all I got out of it.


----------



## Scott

uptheglens said:
			
		

> That's about all I got out of it.



I got that I should give my investment guy a call and buy Alcan.

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:


----------



## GAP

there were some nice, distinctive tin foil hat designs awhile back....kinda got away from that triangular gloop look.....


----------



## Towards_the_gap

uptheglens said:
			
		

> That's about all I got out of it.




All I got was 

'wibble wibble'


----------



## 2 Cdo

I have to concur with Jim and Jungle and refuse to spend one dime of my money in some tropical communist shithole.


----------



## OldSolduer

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> I have to concur with Jim and Jungle and refuse to spend one dime of my money in some tropical communist *******.



I won't even go to Mexico and they are a democracy.....


----------



## asianhistorian

How do you like me to put it? I just like to impart a moral lesson to the kids out there in RMC....And it's true! (with due respect, Generals)...


----------



## ModlrMike

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> How do you like me to put it? I just like to impart a moral lesson to the kids out there in RMC....And it's true! (with due respect, Generals)...



WTF?  :spam:


----------



## Scott

asianhistorian,

Until such a time that you can formulate a proper sentence and a coherent statement please stop posting. Nothing you have said thus far, in any of the threads you've participated in, has made any sense whatsoever.

Friendly warning. You can either work to be better understood by perhaps taking more time to think out what it is you wish to post - or we can impose silence upon you.

Staff


----------



## asianhistorian

Journey man does not believe me that I wrote a book. I really wrote a chapbook on Cuban economy, Fidel's cold treatment of Alina her daughter, etc. etc. Title is IN DEFENSE OF DEMOCRATIC CAPITALISM..

he goes to havana in the middle of the night
with cigars on his left and beer on his right
he argues with arms flailing with all his might
but never stops to think if everything is alright
his unpredictable pattern of consumer behaviour
behooves him to make Adam Smith his saviour
for people in his country are alloted limited goods
through ration cards as if he can predict one's moods

.....(that is coherent for you?...289 fellow-workers Cuban moles connived and conspired against me to have me fired in a multi-millionn dollar company and they succeded..RMC should know this! So that General Devlin knows whom to fire!!!


----------



## The Bread Guy

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> Journey man does not believe me that I wrote a book. I really wrote a chapbook on Cuban economy, Fidel's cold treatment of Alina her daughter, etc. etc. Title is IN DEFENSE OF DEMOCRATIC CAPITALISM..
> 
> he goes to havana in the middle of the night
> with cigars on his left and beer on his right
> he argues with arms flailing with all his might
> but never stops to think if everything is alright
> his unpredictable pattern of consumer behaviour
> behooves him to make Adam Smith his saviour
> for people in his country are alloted limited goods
> through ration cards as if he can predict one's moods
> 
> .....(that is coherent for you?...


Uh, not really - any links to this book of yours?  Amazon.com doesn't seem to carry it, and the only web page with that title seems to be based in the U.S.

Although, I have to say, a number of people seem to have copied your little ditty there without crediting you....


----------



## asianhistorian

I did not publish them. The chapbook has 45 poems in it. I don't want to get fired again. Fidel is King here in Canada! He got men in CF. Anonymity is the best option.


----------



## matthew1786

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> I did not publish them. The chapbook has 45 poems in it. I don't want to get fired again. Fidel is King here in Canada! He got men in CF.







 :2c:


----------



## The Bread Guy

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> I did not publish them. The chapbook has 45 poems in it. I don't want to get fired again. Fidel is King here in Canada! He got men in CF. Anonymity is the best option.


Sorry, I guess I misunderstood this bit that you typed earlier on....


			
				asianhistorian said:
			
		

> The enthusiastic type who fell for me for my intellect finally became cold upon her discovery that *I wrote a book critical of Fidel*. She cannot really look at me straight in they eye. `I`m scared of you, ___ (me)``


----------



## Strike

Ummmm...


----------



## asianhistorian

Please give me a chance..One or two more chances..por favor..you made me go ballistics..


----------



## Journeyman

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> Journey man does not believe me that I wrote a book.


I merely asked the title.



Mind you, I've been to Cuba recently; maybe I was _directed_ to ask....   


   op:


----------



## 2 Cdo

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I won't even go to Mexico and they are a democracy.....



I actually just got back from Mexico and had a fantastic time. The Mayan Riviera is awesome.


----------



## ModlrMike

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> I did not publish them. The chapbook has 45 poems in it. I don't want to get fired again. Fidel is King here in Canada! He got men in CF. Anonymity is the best option.



Free advice is worth what you paid for it, even more so when given on the internet, however:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than open one's mouth and remove all doubt."

 :2c:


----------



## Danjanou

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> I actually just got back from Mexico and had a fantastic time. The Mayan Riviera is awesome.



Yup some sleepy little towns not overrun by touristas where you can kick back and enjoy a cold beer. Tulum is well worth  the visit as long as you get there before the bus tour hordes from Cancun arrive.

Oh Asianhistorian Fidel called  he said "come back all is forgiven companero." 8)


----------



## 2 Cdo

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Yup some sleepy little towns not overrun by touristas where you can kick back and enjoy a cold beer. Tulum is well worth  the visit as long as you get there before the bus tour hordes from Cancun arrive.
> 
> Oh Asianhistorian Fidel called  he said "come back all is forgiven companero." 8)



Funny you mentioning Tulum as that was one of our first stops once we got there.  Also checked out Chichen Itza and Coba.


----------



## Danjanou

I've done bigger Mayan sites, Copan in Honduras and Tikal in Guatemala but Tulum perched on the cliff overlooking that turquoise water was photographers dream.


----------



## 2 Cdo

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I've done bigger Mayan sites, Copan in Honduras and Tikal in Guatemala but Tulum perched on the cliff overlooking that turquoise water was photographers dream.



What's the phrase real estate agents use,  LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION! 8)


----------



## 57Chevy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> the cliff overlooking that turquoise water was photographers dream.



Did you take any photos ?  

Cuba is also the largest repository of classic american cars from the 50s.
Lots of photos here: http://www.cuba-pictures.com/index.html

scroll the page...


----------



## Old Sweat

Tulum is spectacular, even if it is not as grand in design as Chichen Itza. Beings much younger, but just as foolish, I climbed the latter on Christmas Day 1977.


----------



## Danjanou

57Chevy said:
			
		

> Did you take any photos ?
> 
> Cuba is also the largest repository of classic american cars from the 50s.
> Lots of photos here: http://www.cuba-pictures.com/index.html
> 
> scroll the page...



Of Cuba or Mexico?  Thousands in both places and elsewhere actually






Tulum





Habana


----------



## cupper

asianhistorian said:
			
		

> I did not publish them. The chapbook has 45 poems in it. I don't want to get fired again. Fidel is King here in Canada! He got men in CF. Anonymity is the best option.



He could have a point. Apparently there are 78 to 81 Democrat members of Congress who are known members of the Communist Party.

At least according to Congressman Allan West (R- Fla.)  :Tin-Foil-Hat:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/republican-rep-allen-west-suggests-many-congressional-democrats-are-communists/2012/04/11/gIQApbZiAT_blog.html 

The best part of that article:



> Another CPC member, Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.), pointed to a more recent member of Congress who accused his colleagues of being Communists: former Rep. Randy “Duke” Cunningham (R-Calif.), who is now in federal prison after a corruption conviction.
> 
> “Mr. West is in really very extraordinary company here,” DeFazio said. ”He should get in touch with Duke in prison, and they can chat about this conspiracy that's going on.”



:rofl:


----------



## CougarKing

Cuba is now trying to copy China's economic success by opening up its first special economic zone (SEZ) like what China did in the 1980s under Deng Xiaoping. 

Somehow, I am skeptical this will gain much traction, considering Cuba has already has a lot of competition for cheap labour from other nations around the Caribbean. Furthermore, nothing has been heard about that 20 billion barrel oil discovery off the Cuban coast from a couple of years ago. So perhaps Cuba may remain dependent on tourism (from Canada and EU tourists, while Americans normally can't visit Cuba, IIRC) as one of its major revenue sources.



> *Cuba builds communism-free zone to woo capitalist businesses*
> 
> HAVANA, Cuba — *One country, two systems. The formula has worked for China’s business-minded communists. Can it succeed in Cuba?*
> 
> *President Raul Castro’s government is building its own version of a Chinese-style economic zone on the banks of the Mariel Bay, 30 miles west of Havana, where the laws of scientific Marxism will not apply.*
> 
> Inside a 180-square-mile special economic zone, Cuban planners have envisioned a global capitalist enclave where foreign companies can install manufacturing plants, research centers and operational hubs.
> 
> *This island within an island will operate on the business principles of globalization -- not tropical socialism -- and like China’s 1980s reforms, it would offer communist authorities an expedient way to compartmentalize economics and ideology.*
> 
> More at...
> 
> NBC news


----------



## marinemech

may be enough, to start slowly rebuild Cuba, only time will tell


----------



## CougarKing

Apparently Canada reportedly has a role in a facilitating this...

Reuters



> *U.S. moves to normalize relations with Cuba in dramatic shift*
> 
> By Steve Holland
> 
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States and Cuba are moving to normalize diplomatic relations more than 50 years after they were severed in a historic shift in policy, President Barack Obama was set to announce on Wednesday.
> 
> Senior U.S officials, previewing Obama's 12 p.m. ET announcement, said *the United States and Cuba will move to open embassies in each other's capitals. Obama spoke on Tuesday to Cuban President Raul Castro to discuss the changes in a call that lasted nearly an hour.*
> 
> The shift will mean a relaxation in the flow of commerce and transportation by the United States to Cuba, the officials said.
> 
> *As part of a prisoner swap under the new policy, Cuba freed American Alan Gross in exchange for three Cubans held by the United States, the officials said. Cuba is also releasing a U.S. intelligence agent held for nearly 20 years.*
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## The Bread Guy

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> Apparently Canada reportedly has a role in a facilitating this...
> 
> Reuters


Yup ....


> U.S. President Barack Obama today thanked Canada for its role in helping the U.S. and Cuba thaw their relations.
> 
> Canada helped the U.S. and Cuba begin their reconciliation, American officials said earlier, by hosting gatherings of officials from the two countries.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper congratulated the two countries for their "successful dialogue" in a statement Wednesday, saying “Canada supports a future for Cuba that fully embraces the fundamental values of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law."
> 
> “Canada was pleased to host the senior officials from the United States and Cuba, which permitted them the discretion required to carry out these important talks,” the statement read.
> 
> High-level U.S. officials, on a conference call to brief reporters about the détente, said there were multiple meetings with Cuban officials in third-party countries.
> 
> Officials said Canada hosted the first face-to-face encounter in June 2013 followed by a series of meetings until as recently as last month.
> 
> No meetings were held on American or Cuban territory.
> 
> Canada did not participate in the substance of the discussions, but was indispensable in facilitating and hosting the discussions, an official said.
> 
> In his statement, Cuban President Raul Castro recognized the support of the Canadian government "for helping realize the high-level dialogue between the two countries." ....


A bit more from the PMO:


> “I wish to congratulate the Government of the United States and the Government of Cuba on their successful dialogue and negotiations which will lead to normalized relations between their two countries.
> 
> “Canada supports a future for Cuba that fully embraces the fundamental values of freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law.
> 
> “Canada was pleased to host the senior officials from the United States and Cuba, which permitted them the discretion required to carry out these important talks.”


----------



## Stoker

Port visits soon to Havana, where the sun is warm and so is the comradeship.


----------



## Eye In The Sky




----------



## The Bread Guy

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Port visits soon to Havana, where the sun is warm and so is the comradeship.


And, at least for the Americans, the cigars may soon be legal  ;D


----------



## CougarKing

Then there's the whole question of what will happen to GITMO naval base...

Military.com



> *Cuba Initiative Could Mean Changes for Guantanamo Base*
> 
> Dec 17, 2014 | by Bryant Jordan
> President Obama on Wednesday announced the beginning of the end of the decades-old U.S. embargo of Cuba, opening the door to normal relations by re-establishing an American embassy in Havana and sending a U.S. delegation there next month for talks on U.S.-Cuba migration.
> But left out of Obama's announcement is what normalization of relations may mean for the future of the American naval base and post-9/11 detention facility at Guantanamo Bay.
> The U.S. has had a military presence in Guantanamo Bay since it helped the Cubans oust the Spanish during the Spanish-American War. But in the years after that war, the U.S. entered into a lease that granted the U.S. the right to build and operate a naval base there with sole jurisdiction over the area.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## tomahawk6

Nothing will happen to the base.


----------



## CougarKing

Raul Castro in the spotlight...

Reuters



> *Cuba's Raul Castro steps out of brother's shadow with U.S. deal, support surges*
> Reuters
> 
> By Daniel Trotta and Rosa Tania Valdés | Reuters – 3 hours ago
> 
> (...SNIPPED)
> 
> aul Castro, 83, took over as president from an ailing Fidel in 2008 and while he has pushed through a raft of market-style economic reforms, he has until now been a low-key leader, clearly lacking his brother's charisma.
> But now, more Cubans appreciate his new brand of leadership.
> "Raul Castro is doing things that Cuba needs. A lot of people didn't believe in him, but his work is on display. He is changing the country quietly, without speeches, and without bragging about it," said Jose Fernandez, a 55-year-old math teacher as he waited for a bus to work on Friday.
> With Fidel Castro in retirement and rarely seen, any increase in Raul's popularity helps legitimize communist rule as Cubans adjust to his economic reforms and now a new relationship with the United States.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

The major catch in this recent thaw...

Reuters



> *Cuba not returning to capitalism despite U.S. deal: Castro's daughter*
> Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:46pm EST
> 
> By Rosa Tania Valdés
> 
> HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba will defend its socialist principles and will not return to capitalism just because it has agreed a detente with the United States, the daughter of President Raul Castro said, dispelling any notion that U.S. companies would be free to roll into Cuba.
> 
> "The people of Cuba don't want to return to capitalism," Mariela Castro, a member of parliament, told Reuters on Friday.
> 
> Cuba and the United States on Wednesday agreed to end more than five decades of animosity and re-establish full diplomatic relations. U.S. President Barack Obama also said he intends to remove some sanctions against Cuba and work with the U.S. Congress to end the economic embargo.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## SeaKingTacco

The people of Cuba don't want capitalism? Tell that to the tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Cubans operating black or grey market businesses...


----------



## a_majoor

While I agree in principle that this sort of thing is good (The Cuban communists will most likely be swept aside by the proximity of American "soft" power and the pent up desires of the Cuban people), the nature of this is pretty shady; the Obama Administration is only doing it as a stick in the eye to the newly elected Republican House and Senate, and to hell with the consequences of a hastily drafted and poorly thought out deal.

And T6, while I hope you are right, the behaviour of the Obama Administration in the past suggests that nothing is off limits to them when it comes to securing electoral advantage or attacking their political (as opposed to real and external) enemies.


----------



## cupper

One thing that needs to be considered is the impact that lifting the embargo will have on the Canadian economy.

I was talking with a friend last night who works for a company that provides shipping and logistical services to Canadian companies with a presence in the mining sector in Cuba. This is a large chunk of their business currently.

They called the employees in for a meeting to discuss the impact of the latest developments. Long and short of it is that they do not see anything changing over the near to medium term (3 to 5 year time frame), but if the embargo is eventually relaxed or lifted, they will no longer be competitive, as shipping and logistics firms based in Florida will have a considerable advantage.

Extending this further across various sectors where Canada currently holds an advantage because of the embargo, we stand to lose a significant amount of revenues for Canadian companies as US businesses move into new territory.


----------



## tomahawk6

Its a risk for the regime to normalize relations with the US.US vacationers will flock to the island.US dollars will flow into the economy and will undermine the regime's control to a certain extent.It will be fun to watch.


----------



## CougarKing

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Its a risk for the regime to normalize relations with the US.US vacationers will flock to the island.US dollars will flow into the economy and will undermine the regime's control to a certain extent.It will be fun to watch.



US tourists and dollars are also flowing, and have been flowing, for years into China, Laos and Vietnam, but yet their communist systems have not been compromised. In fact they've flourished in the case of China and Vietnam; how do we know that Cuba won't be doing the same thing? 

They could allow market reform but insulate the government from political reforms (remember China's town-village enterprises and special economic zones?)

Could Raul Castro be Cuba's Deng Xiaoping?


----------



## CougarKing

As expected, immigration would be a divisive issue at the current US-Cuba talks:

Reuters



> *U.S., Cuba clash over immigration at start of historic talks*
> 
> By Daniel Trotta
> 
> HAVANA (Reuters) - The United States and Cuba clashed over immigration policy on Wednesday at the first session of high-level talks seeking to restore diplomatic ties between the Cold War adversaries.
> 
> *Despite Havana's objections, the Americans vowed to continue granting Cuban immigrants special status that allows nearly every Cuban reaching U.S. soil to remain in the country, while nationals of other countries are deported if they arrive under similar circumstances.*
> 
> The talks will continue on Thursday with the two sides set to discuss restoring diplomatic relations and eventually opening up full trade and travel ties.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Still very little progress, if at all...

Reuters



> *Cuba leaves talks on US ties insisting it won't make major changes to its system*
> 
> By Michael Weissenstein And Anne-Marie Garcia, The Associated Press | The Canadian Press – 2 hours 6 minutes ago
> 
> HAVANA - The start of talks on repairing 50 years of broken relations appears to have left President Raul Castro's government focused on winning additional concessions without giving in to U.S. demands for greater freedoms, despite the seeming benefits that warmer ties could have for the country's struggling economy.
> 
> *Following the highest-level open talks in three decades between the two nations, Cuban officials remained firm in rejecting significant reforms pushed by the United States as part of President Barack Obama's surprise move to re-establish ties and rebuild economic relations with the Communist-led country.*
> 
> "One can't think that in order to improve and normalize relations with the U.S., Cuba has to give up the principles it believes in," Cuba's top diplomat for U.S. affairs, Josefina Vidal, told The Associated Press after the end of the talks. "Changes in Cuba aren't negotiable."
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

And the talks resume:

Reuters



> *Cuba, U.S. renew talks on restoring diplomatic ties*
> 
> By Daniel Trotta
> 
> HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba and the United States meet for talks on restoring diplomatic relations on Monday, seeking more progress toward an agreement while not allowing differences over Venezuela to impede their historic rapprochement.
> 
> *Assistant U.S. Secretary of State Roberta Jacobson is due to meet in Havana with Josefina Vidal, the Cuban foreign ministry's chief of U.S. affairs, with talks possibly continuing into Wednesday.*
> 
> Jacobson and Vidal led their respective delegations with great fanfare in Havana in January and in Washington in February, but this session will take place with smaller teams and, so far at least, a media blackout.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Obama trying to pull a "Nixon goes to China" move with Cuba?

ABC News



> *US-Cuba Relations: Stage Set for Historic Meeting Between Obama and Castro*
> 
> *The United States and Cuba are set to mark an historic milestone next week with President Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro poised to share the stage at the upcoming Summit of the Americas in Panama. *
> 
> It will be the first scheduled meeting between leaders of the two countries in nearly 60 years.
> 
> In advance of the historic meeting, “Power Players” sat down with Josefina Vidal, the head diplomat representing Cuba in negotiations with the United States in the months following President Obama’s announcement in December that the U.S. would normalize relations with the Communist island.
> 
> In what she described as a “new era” of relations between the two neighboring countries, Vidal said one of the biggest challenges is to move beyond the distrust that was built over 54 years of severed ties.
> 
> "We still have to overcome it, so it's a process,” Vidal said, “because we haven't had that confidence for many years … But the idea is to get there.”
> 
> (...SNIPPED)



Reuters



> *U.S., Cuba hold first formal talks on human rights*
> 
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States and Cuba met on Tuesday to discuss how they intend to treat future dialogue on the thorny issue of human rights as the countries move toward restoring diplomatic ties.
> 
> No major announcements emerged from the meeting, the first formal dialogue between the countries on human rights since U.S. President Barack Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro announced on Dec. 17 they were seeking to restore diplomatic ties.
> 
> "The atmosphere of the meeting was professional, and there was broad agreement on the way forward for a future substantive dialogue," the State Department said in a statement at the end of the day.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

I wonder what Fidel thinks about what his brother is doing with the current US-Cuba talks:

Reuters



> *Fidel Castro appears in public for first time in over a year*
> 
> By Daniel Trotta
> 
> HAVANA (Reuters) - Former Cuban President Fidel Castro, 88, appeared in public "full of vitality" for the first time in more than a year on Monday, greeting a delegation of Venezuelans, official media reported on Saturday.
> 
> It was his first known appearance outside his home since Cuba in December agreed to normalize relations with the United States, Castro's longtime adversary.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## jollyjacktar

I am sure it was something that was discussed between the two along the way.  I have no doubt that Fidel still has some influence or at least counsel on the country and current affairs.  I suppose that Cuba has come to the decision that they have more to gain than lose in friendlier relations with the US.  Isolation has not really worked for either side.


----------



## CougarKing

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I am sure it was something that was discussed between the two along the way.  I have no doubt that Fidel still has some influence or at least counsel on the country and current affairs.  I suppose that Cuba has come to the decision that they have more to gain than lose in friendlier relations with the US.  Isolation has not really worked for either side.



Let's see if the current engagement continues...

Reuters



> *Obama, Castro to share stage at summit as detente takes hold*
> 
> By Daniel Trotta and Matt Spetalnick
> 
> PANAMA CITY (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro will share the same stage on Friday in an encounter rich with symbolism as their countries set aside decades of hostility and move toward restoring diplomatic relations.
> 
> The rapprochement is set to dominate the Summit of the Americas meeting, held in Panama, less than four months after Obama and Castro announced they would seek to lower tensions and boost trade and travel between the two Cold War enemies.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Obama and Raul Castro finally meet...

Our media is also saying PM Harper is there at the Americas summit with them as well.

Reuters



> *Obama, Castro greet each other at summit amid U.S.-Cuba detente*
> 
> PANAMA CITY (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro greeted each other on Friday at a summit in Panama, a photo showed, a symbolically charged gesture as the pair seek to restore ties between two Cold War foes.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Semi-related:

Reuters



> *Pope to visit Cuba en route to U.S., capping diplomatic role*
> 
> By Philip Pullella
> 
> VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Francis will visit Cuba en route to the United States in September, the Vatican said on Wednesday, capping his success in bringing the former enemies together after more than half a century of frozen antagonism.
> 
> Last December, Havana and Washington announced after 18 months of secret diplomacy brokered by the pope's diplomats and Canada that the two sides were working to reopen embassies in their respective capitals.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Best thing for the US to do is drop the embargo and then totally ignore them


----------



## cupper

Colin P said:
			
		

> Best thing for the US to do is drop the embargo and then totally ignore them



But then all the American tourists will want to see the prisoners in Gitmo.  ;D


----------



## Robert0288

> But then all the American "tourists" will want to see the prisoners in Gitmo.  ;D



Fixed.


----------



## cupper

Moving closer to normalization of relations, Cuba's biggest demand before allowing diplomatic facilities to reopen has been met.

*U.S. Drops Cuba From List Of State Sponsors Of Terrorism*

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/05/29/410543192/u-s-drops-cuba-from-state-sponsored-terrorism-list



> The U.S. State Department announced Friday that Cuba has been dropped from a list of state sponsors of terrorism.
> 
> "The rescission of Cuba's designation as a State Sponsor of Terrorism reflects our assessment that Cuba meets the statutory criteria for rescission," the department said in a statement. "While the United States has significant concerns and disagreements with a wide range of Cuba's policies and actions, these fall outside the criteria relevant to the rescission of a State Sponsor of Terrorism designation."
> 
> National Security Council spokeswoman Bernadette Meehan, in a blog post, conceded that "while the United States has significant concerns and disagreements with a wide range of Cuba's policies and actions, these fall outside the criteria relevant to the rescission of a state sponsor of terrorism designation."
> 
> "For 55 years, we tried using isolation to bring about change in Cuba. But by isolating Cuba from the United States, we isolated the United States from the Cuban people and, increasingly, the rest of the world," Meehan wrote.
> 
> The move follows last month's historic meeting in Panama between President Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro.
> 
> Reuters notes: "The removal of Cuba from the U.S. terrorism list eliminates an obstacle toward restoring diplomatic ties between the United States and the communist-led Caribbean island state after 54 years."
> 
> The decision comes after the White House fulfilled a 45-day pre-notification of the change to Congress.
> 
> As NPR's Sam Sanders reported on April 14 — when the White House submitted the request for review of Cuba's status — the move is a major step in normalizing relations between the two countries.
> 
> In an interview last month with Morning Edition, President Obama said that the change in the relationship with Cuba is "a real opportunity" for both countries.
> 
> "Our hope is to be in a position where we can open an embassy there — that we can start having more regular contacts and consultations around a whole host of issues, some of which we have interests in common," the president told Morning Edition host Steve Inskeep.
> 
> Removing Havana from the list lifts some sanctions, but others would remain in place, according to Roberta Jacobson, assistant secretary of state for Western Hemisphere affairs.
> 
> Speaking to All Things Considered host Robert Siegel last month, Jacobson said that "it is as much a change in reputation" as it is about sanctions.
> 
> "To be on that list is a mark in some ways that countries bear. But it does take them off of certain forms of sanctions that they will no longer have to be constrained by," she said.


----------



## tomahawk6

Tourism from the US will be a boon to Cuba's economy.Now we cam go where Canadians have proudly gone for decades. ;D


----------



## pbi

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Its a risk for the regime to normalize relations with the US.US vacationers will flock to the island.US dollars will flow into the economy and will undermine the regime's control to a certain extent.It will be fun to watch.



And, in my opinion, that was always the smart way to "defeat" Cuba. (Less the brief interlude caused by the Russians) Not by threatening (which just made Castro more popular) or stupid coup attempts, but by normalizing relations.
Does economic interdependence always work as a peacemaker and regime changer? No: of course not-Russia and China being two examples where not much "thawing" seems to have happened on the political front.
But, in a case like Cuba's, where proximity,  massive economic imbalance, and a certain cultural affinity (Hispanics being, IIRC, the fastest growing demographic in the US) all gave the US clear advantages, was it really necessary to prolong the "Cuba Crisis" for decades? How much of a credible threat was Cuba to the US, once the Russians closed up their missile shop?

Or, was it really a case of domestic politics (ie: the expat Cuban vote in Florida as a "swing state") trumping foreign policy?

Anyway, enjoy those cigars.....


----------



## CougarKing

Here we go: relations officially re-established.

Reuters



> *Kerry urges 'genuine democracy' at U.S. flag ceremony in Cuba*
> Fri Aug 14, 2015 3:27pm EDT
> 
> By Daniel Trotta and Lesley Wroughton
> 
> HAVANA (Reuters) - U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry declared a new era in relations as he celebrated restored diplomatic ties in Havana on Friday, but he also urged political change in Cuba, telling Cubans they should be free to choose their own leaders.
> 
> The first U.S. secretary of state to visit the Caribbean island in 70 years, *Kerry presided over a ceremony raising the U.S. flag over the newly reopened American embassy.*
> 
> His comments drew a firm riposte from Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez, who defended his Communist government at a joint news conference and criticized the United States' own record on rights. "We have profound differences on national security, human rights and political models," Rodriguez said.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## cupper

*These Marines took down the U.S. flag in Cuba in 1961. Today, they watched it rise again.*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/08/14/these-marines-took-down-the-u-s-flag-in-cuba-in-1961-today-theyll-raise-it-again/?hpid=z5



> It was a few days into January 1961 when three Marines at the U.S. Embassy in Havana were given a sad task: Take down the American flag. President Dwight D. Eisenhower was shutting down the diplomatic compound and pulling Americans out, a response to the downward spiral in U.S. relations with the new government of Fidel Castro.
> 
> The non-commissioned officer in charge at the embassy asked for three volunteers — “the biggest, ugliest Marines you can find,” recalled retired Master Gunnery Sgt. Jim Tracy, then a sergeant. He and two others — then-Lance Cpl. Larry C. Morris and then-Cpl. Francis “Mike” East — were sent out to part a crowd of about 300 Cubans and take down Old Glory, Tracy said.
> 
> “We didn’t have anybody on the sidewalks at all,” Tracy said in a State Department video released this week. “They knew what we were going to do.”
> 
> On Friday, the Marines, now in their 70s, returned to Havana alongside Secretary of State John F. Kerry to take part in a ceremony to raise the flag again. It has been more than 54 years since U.S. relations with Cuba were severed, but the embassy reopened following an agreement reached earlier this year between Havana and Washington.
> 
> Kerry said that tensions were high as the Marines took down the flag in 1961. He recalled how they folded the flag surrounded by Cubans before returning to the embassy building.
> 
> “Fifty-four years ago, you gentlemen promised to return to Havana and hoist the flag over the United States embassy that you lowered on that January day long ago,” the secretary said. “Today, I invite you, on behalf of President Obama and the American people to fulfill that pledge by presenting the Stars and Stripes to be raised by members of our current military detachment.”
> 
> Kerry called it a “healing mission” to raise the flag in Havana again.
> 
> “We are certain that the time is now to reach out to one another as two people who are no longer enemies or rivals, but neighbors, time to unfurl our flags, raise them up, and let the world know that we wish each other well,” Kerry said.
> 
> The Marines did not speak during the ceremony. Tracy, the senior-ranking Marine in the group, handed the flag to a current Marine sergeant in a crisp dress blue uniform. The three veterans saluted, and then watched as the flag was raised from the front row of chairs set up nearby.
> 
> The veterans were visibly emotional in the video released by the State Department as they described their memories of Cuba and taking the flag down. East, who later retired as a gunnery sergeant, recalled it being uneasy taking the flag down.
> 
> “To see Old Glory flying for the last time in Cuba, you know, it didn’t seem right,” he said. “You know, it just seemed like something was wrong, something was missing, you know.”
> 
> The men were interviewed earlier this week by The New York Times, and have recalled their experiences in the past. Tracy told the Jacksonville Daily News in North Carolina in January that the crowd outside the embassy was mainly waiting to get visas, and predicted that he and his fellow Marines who took the flag down would return to Cuba to raise one again.
> 
> “We’re going to talk over getting back to Cuba and putting a flag back up together,” he said at the time. “It won’t be the first flag that goes up, but it will be a flag.”
> 
> The Marines said in the State Department video that the Cuban people were mostly happy to have Americans around and wanted to interact with them. But there were indications ahead of the embassy’s closure that there were dangers looming.
> 
> Morris recalled in an interview for the Marine Corps Embassy Guard Association newsletter a Halloween party in October 1960 in which armed militants held Marines and other embassy personnel hostage for several hours. The gunmen ultimately left the party without harming anyone.
> 
> “That incident was an eye-opener for us all,” said Morris, who left the service as a corporal a few years later. “It raised an awareness of the increased tension between U.S. and Cuba. We were even beginning to be followed to and from our duty assignments. It was just no longer business as usual.”


----------



## CougarKing

A couple of updates: US Senators Rubio and Cruz probably won't be happy with the first one.

CNN



> *Obama announces Cuba visit*
> 
> By Jim Acosta, Elise Labott, Nicole Gaouette, Kevin Liptak and Allie Malloy, CNN
> Updated 5:14 PM ET, Thu February 18, 2016
> 
> Washington (CNN)President Barack Obama will become the first sitting U.S. President to visit Cuba in 88 years, when he visits Havana in March, White House press secretary Josh Earnest announced Thursday.
> 
> The visit, which is scheduled for March 21-22, is another big step by the administration in ongoing efforts to normalize diplomatic relations with Cuba.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)



Plus something that pertains Canadians who want to vacation in Cuba:  ;D

Yahoo Daily Brew



> *Restoring U.S. commercial flights to Cuba will challenge Canadian airlines*
> [Daily Brew]
> Terri Coles
> February 17, 2016
> [Al Jazeera America]
> 
> The continued opening up of relations between Cuba and the United States could be bad news for this country’s airline operators, if Canadians begin to cross the border to fly south out of American airports.
> 
> The latest development is the agreement signed in Havana on Tuesday that restores commercial flights between Cuba and the U.S., for the first time in more than 50 years. Flights could be available as soon as the fall.
> 
> “It is premature to speculate about what impact if any this will have as we do not know what services U.S. carriers will be offering,” Air Canada spokesman Peter Fitzpatrick tells Yahoo Canada News.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

Obama's visit to Havana approaches:

Canadian Press



> *Cuba plans to lift penalty on US dollar, demands embargo end*
> [The Canadian Press]
> Michael Weissenstein And Josh Lederman, The Associated Press
> 
> March 17, 2016
> 
> WASHINGTON - Cuba's government said Thursday it plans to do away with a penalty on converting U.S. dollars, but warned the Obama administration not to expect more changes until the U.S. trade embargo is lifted.
> 
> *Three days before President Barack Obama visits the island*, Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez dismissed Obama's lofty rhetoric about using his visit to speak directly to the Cuban people about their future. In a stern and lengthy speech in Havana, he put Obama on notice that any attempt to circumvent the Cuban government by lobbying Cubans directly would not be warmly received
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## CougarKing

The Obama visit to Havana begins: Cuban leader Raul Castro was reportedly not at the airport to meet the POTUS, although he did meet both the recent Popes in that fashion in their visits.

Guardian



> *Barack Obama lands in Cuba as first US president to visit in 88 years*
> 
> Sunday 20 March 2016 20.46 GMT
> 
> Barack Obama descended on Cuba with a pomp unmatched by the Pope on Sunday, becoming the first American president to visit Cuba in nearly a century, and the first since a revolution led by Fidel Castro toppled a US-backed strongman in 1959.
> 
> As he arrived, Obama used a Cuban phrase meaning “what’s up?” when he tweeted: “¿Que bolá Cuba? Just touched down here, looking forward to meeting and hearing directly from the Cuban people.”
> 
> A giant American delegation, estimated at somewhere between 800 and 1,200, swept into Havana this weekend, intent on closing a final chapter in cold war history and sealing the diplomatic legacy of Obama’s presidency.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## tomahawk6

He will probably try and give Cuba Guantanamo Bay back to the Castro brothers.


----------



## cupper

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> He will probably try and give Cuba Guantanamo Bay back to the Castro brothers.



Shhhhh. 

How do you think he's going to pull an end run around Congress?  [


----------



## tomahawk6

He will sign an Executive Order.
It is interesting that neither Castro bothered to meet the President when he landed.Naturally he wasnt offended and the White House is in full spin mode.


----------



## Danjanou

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> He will sign an Executive Order.
> It is interesting that neither Castro bothered to meet the President when he landed.Naturally he wasnt offended and the White House is in full spin mode.



Well to be honest the Rolling Stones are in town, maybe Fidel and little brother Raoul are fans and were off trying to get autographs 8)
http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/music/2016/03/01/los-rollings-aka-the-rolling-stones-to-play-show-in-havana.html


----------



## Edward Campbell

It is not normal protocol for heads of state or even heads of government to greet visiting heads of state/government on the tarmac on arrival. That duty is normally assigned to a junior minister or even an official. The general protocol is that the visiting head of state/government arrives, and then calls on the host head of state/government at his/her office on the first or second day and is, then, hosted by the host head of state/government at a big, glitzy, formal dinner.


----------



## cupper

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It is not normal protocol for heads of state or even heads of government to greet visiting heads of state/government on the tarmac on arrival. That duty is normally assigned to a junior minister or even an official. The general protocol is that the visiting head of state/government arrives, and then calls on the host head of state/government at his/her office on the first or second day and is, then, hosted by the host head of state/government at a big, glitzy, formal dinner.



See, now you've ruined it for the GOP Presidential candidates and the anti-Obamites. What are they going to be able to complain about now?


----------



## CougarKing

That's no "hand embrace"! That's simply Raul deflecting Obama's attempted hand shake.  ;D

Yahoo Daily Buzz



> *What’s the deal with Obama and Castro’s awkward hand embrace?*
> 
> Daily Buzz
> March 21, 2016
> 
> [Cuban President Raul Castro and U.S. President Barack Obama hold a joint news conference at the Palace of the Revolution, Monday, March 21, 2016, in Havana, Cuba. AP Photo/Ramon Espinosa]
> 
> It’s been 88 years since a meeting between the leaders of Cuba and the U.S., so it’s only natural that things got a little awkward.
> 
> U.S. President Barack Obama and Cuban President Raul Castro are working on patching up relations between the two nations during an historic visit by the American leader.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)
> 
> At the end of a news conference Monday, where Castro tussled with reporters over political prisoners, a handshake – or should we say embrace – between the two ends in a bizarre flop.
> 
> *In the clip, the U.S. president’s left arm goes limp as Castro lifts it up. We aren’t really sure what to make of the moment between the two leaders but the Internet sure had a lot to say.*
> 
> (...SNIPPED)



Hello Canada via Yahoo News



> *Malia Obama acts as dad Barack Obama's translator in Cuba*
> 
> hello-canada
> 
> March 21, 2016
> 
> While on visit to Cuba, President Barack Obama traded the world's top translators for someone closer to his heart - daughter Malia, who has been helping him communicate with locals. The 17-year-old acted as Spanish interpreter while the family went through the historic trip, the first time a sitting US president has been to Cuba since the 1959 revolution.
> 
> A photo shared on President Obama's official Facebook page shows the father-daughter duo laughing with a local restaurateur during a meeting on Sunday. The teenager appears confident and happy to be helping her father, as she put her high school Spanish education into use.
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## cupper

The opening up of relations with Cuba may have benefits come November when US citizens need an alternate place to relocate when Trump wins.


----------



## cavalryman

cupper said:
			
		

> The opening up of relations with Cuba may have benefits come November when US citizens need an alternate place to relocate when Trump wins.


Meaning they won't come here.  Cool.  I can dig that.  [


----------



## ueo

Meaning the Canso Causeway is safe for a while longer.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Not from General Sir John Cabot Trail, of the Cape Breton Liberation Army  [

"Down with the Causeway!!!"


----------



## CougarKing

Castro and his old guard still have a firm grip on power despite the recent conciliatory moves with Washington and more open links with the US:

Associated Press



> *Cuba's aging leaders to remain in power years longer*
> Michael Weissenstein, The Associated Press
> April 20, 2016
> 
> HAVANA - The former guerrilla fighters who founded Cuba's single-party government will hold power for years to come after a twice-a-decade Communist Party congress kept President Raul Castro and his hardline deputy in the top leadership positions.
> 
> Fidel Castro, who held power for nearly five decades before ill health led him to make way for his brother, delivered a valedictory speech to the congress Tuesday and called on it to fight for his communist ideals despite the fact that he is nearing the end of his life.
> 
> "I'll be 90 years old soon," Castro said in his most extensive public appearance in years. "Soon I'll be like all the others. The time will come for all of us, but the ideas of the Cuban Communists will remain as proof on this planet that if they are worked at with fervour and dignity, they can produce the material and cultural goods that human beings need, and we need to fight without a truce to obtain them."
> 
> (...SNIPPED)


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from Agence France-Presse:


> Cuba's historic revolutionary leader Fidel Castro died Friday aged 90, after defying the United States during a half-century of iron-fisted rule and surviving the eclipse of global communism.
> 
> One of the world's longest-serving rulers and modern history's most singular characters, Castro defied 11 US administrations and hundreds of assassination attempts.
> 
> His younger brother, President Raul Castro, announced the news shortly after midnight (0500 GMT Saturday) but gave no details of the cause of death.
> 
> Fidel Castro crushed opposition at home from the moment he took power in 1959 to lead the communist Caribbean island through the Cold War. He stepped aside only in 2006 after intestinal surgery.
> 
> For defenders of the revolution, Castro was a hero who defended the ordinary people against capitalist domination.
> 
> For his opponents, including thousands of Cubans resident in the United States, he was a cruel tyrant ...



More via Google News here.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I'm sure the celebrations have commenced in the Cuban community of south Florida.


----------



## dimsum

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'm sure the celebrations have commenced in the Cuban community of south Florida.



Yep.  CBC was interviewing some of them.


----------



## PanaEng

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'm sure the celebrations have commenced in the Cuban community of south Florida.



I'm sure also in some places in Cuba - probably very quietly as the neighbourhood goons are still on watch...


----------



## George Wallace

Well....Raul is still in power, and then there are Fidel's three sons, so change will still be slow.









http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/11/26/statement-prime-minister-canada-death-former-cuban-president-fidel-castro


----------



## SeaKingTacco

I suppose Fidel was a good enough guy- unless you had the temerity to disagree with him. Then you got to experience a prison cell in Havana.

So- our PM likes dictators. What's next- a statement extolling Kim Jung Il's love of the arts?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

In view of the expected attendance of numerous world leaders at the funeral and the resulting time constraints, Fidel was asked to keep his own self-eulogy to six hours or less.


 ;D


----------



## Chispa

Fidel Castro, Cuba's leader of revolution, dies at 90...

Cuba's former president Fidel Castro, one of the world's longest-serving and most iconic leaders, has died aged 90.
His younger brother and successor as president Raul Castro announced the news on state television.

Castro toppled the government in 1959, introducing a Communist revolution. He defied the US for decades, surviving many assassination plots. 

His supporters said he had given Cuba back to the people. Critics saw him as a dictator. Ashen and grave, President Castro told the nation in an 
unexpected late night broadcast on state television that Fidel Castro had died and would be cremated later on Saturday.

"The commander in chief of the Cuban revolution died at 22:29 hours this evening (03:29 GMT Saturday)," he said. "Towards victory, always!" 
he added, using a revolutionary slogan.

A period of official mourning has been declared on the island until 4 December, when his ashes will be laid to rest in the south-eastern city of 
Santiago.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38114953

Countless of Cuban exiles are now celebrating...Viva la Revolución  contra Castro!


C.U.


Ok that's where it went, did not see the thread... 8)

.


----------



## dapaterson

Check out #trudeaueulogies on Twitter...


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Wow. Trudeau is getting killed right now on Twitter...


----------



## PuckChaser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Check out #trudeaueulogies on Twitter...



For those who don't user twitter much: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23trudeaueulogies&src=typd


----------



## George Wallace

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Wow. Trudeau is getting killed right now on Twitter...



For some not on Twitter or not going to visit, a snapshot:



> 15 new results
> Andrew CoyneVerified account ‏@acoyne  52m52 minutes ago
> “While a controversial figure, even detractors recognize Pol Pot encouraged renewed contact between city and countryside.” #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Andrew CoyneVerified account ‏@acoyne  46m46 minutes ago
> “While a controversial figure, General Tojo brought America into World War II and ultimately helped shorten the war.” #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Alberta View 🎗️ 👀 ‏@UWork4It  2h2 hours ago
> #trudeaueulogies "As you know Mr. Hitler's life has come to an end, he was known as a dog lover and a strong supporter of his race" #cdnpoli
> 
> Mike ‏@MISinYEG  37m37 minutes ago
> "While a controversial figure, Kim Jong-il's commitment to minimizing N. Korea's greenhouse gas emissions was admirable." #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Scott Robinson ‏@ScottRo32599415  5m5 minutes ago Rothesay, New Brunswick
> Though considered by some to be a bit moody, Joseph Stalin was known to be a terrific advocate for the farming community. #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Josh Hood ‏@ncpack2010  5m5 minutes ago
> I am sad to hear of the death of Heinrich Himmler, he was a very successful chicken farmer who had an impact on millions #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Alberta View 🎗️ 👀 ‏@UWork4It  5m5 minutes ago
> #TrudeauEulogies "Saddam Hussein, a stabalizing influence in Iraqi politics, he loved to vacation in Kuwait & was proud of his sons hobbies"
> 
> Don MacLeod ‏@DonWMacleod  6m6 minutes ago
> Today we bid farewell to Genghis Khan, the former Mongolian leader best known for opening new trade routes to China. #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Dave Williams ‏@WilliamsDave  6m6 minutes ago
> Dave Williams Retweeted Andrew Coyne
> Though he died tragically with Eva Braun, his masterpiece "Mein Kampff" was a critically acclaimed bestseller. #trudeaueulogies Dave Williams added,
> 
> Andrew Coyne @acoyne
> “While a controversial figure, General Tojo brought America into World War II and ultimately helped shorten the war.” #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Adam H. Condra ‏@Condrarian  6m6 minutes ago
> "While a controversial figure, Ceausescu's desire to learn English displayed an admirable urge for self-improvement." #TrudeauEulogies
> 
> MLMcRae ‏@mloumcrae  7m7 minutes ago
> Just waiting for one about Pinochet or any of the right wing dictators propped up by the West. #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Curtis ‏@OarPlay  8m8 minutes ago
> #trudeaueulogies Late Emperor Caligula,a man of the people,will be deeply missed by his mother/sister, uncle/father but mostly his horse..
> 
> Wayne J. Sharko ‏@icyleaseroads  9m9 minutes ago
> Moa and his Great LEAP Forward effort to industrialize China was an effective population control measure. #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Elana Fric Shamji ‏@ElanaFricShamji  22m22 minutes ago
> Saddened about the passing of Sauron who, while heavy-handed, did advocate for open borders and usher in industrial era.  #trudeaueulogies
> 
> PM Turdeau ‏@turdeau  26m26 minutes ago
> While a controversial figure, Gaddafi brought much attention to the Libyan fashion scene.   #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Andrew CoyneVerified account ‏@acoyne  30m30 minutes ago
> “While a controversial figure, gruff, hearty Uncle Joe Stalin spared untold millions from indiscriminate slaughter.” #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Josh Hood ‏@ncpack2010  32m32 minutes ago
> While Emperor Nero made some mistakes, he still ensured that of streets of the great city of Rome had adequate lighting #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Josh Hood ‏@ncpack2010  37m37 minutes ago
> I offer my condolences to the family of Genghis Khan, a controversial figure but also created a bond between East and West  #trudeaueulogies
> 
> David AkinVerified account ‏@davidakin  42m42 minutes ago
> Much amusement on Twitter this hour via #TrudeauEulogies
> 
> Damian Penny ‏@damianpenny  42m42 minutes ago Halifax, Nova Scotia
> "While a controversial figure, Mr. Simpson revolutionized the game with his legendary 2,000 yard rushing season." #trudeaueulogies
> 
> 
> Dan Fraser ‏@FraserFraserdw  2h2 hours ago
> Today we say farewell to Adi Amin who help so many non African Ugandans immigrate to Canada #trudeaueulogies
> 
> Alberta View 🎗️ 👀 ‏@UWork4It  2h2 hours ago
> Alberta View 🎗️ 👀 Retweeted J.J. McCullough
> #trudeaueulogies "I'm saddened to hear of supreme leader of N Korea Kim Jong-il passing, he fought childhood obesity like no other" #cdnpoliAlberta View 🎗️ 👀 added,
> 
> J.J. McCullough @JJ_McCullough
> #trudeaueulogies “Today we say goodbye to Mr. Mussolini, the former Italian prime minister best known for his competent train-management.”
> 
> J.J. McCullough ‏@JJ_McCullough  3h3 hours ago
> #trudeaueulogies “Today we say goodbye to Mr. Mussolini, the former Italian prime minister best known for his competent train-management.”


----------



## Brad Sallows

*POP* *fsssss*


----------



## jollyjacktar

Damn, that #trudeaueulogies is some fine, fine social comment.  

Even internationally. 





> Is this a real statement or a parody? Because if this is a real statement from the PM of Canada it is shameful & embarrassing. Marco Rubio-US Senator



He's swiftly turning into a Truedope whom I wish wasn't bringing me as a Canadian citizen into his bloody stupid statements.


----------



## cavalryman

#notmyPrimeMinister  :facepalm:


----------



## George Wallace

cavalryman said:
			
		

> #notmyPrimeMinister  :facepalm:



WOW!.....This is getting quite the international exposure now.


----------



## Loachman

The sun king errs in his presumption that he speaks on my behalf.

I reserve my condolences, instead, for the family, friends, and many, many supporters of those whom Castro murdered, imprisoned, and otherwise oppressed throughout his wretched life.


----------



## Canuck_Jock

Not since the Irish Government sent its condolences to the German Embassy on the death of Chancellor Hitler has there been such crass insensitivity. 

I know he is more a brand than a politician, but Trudeau should retract his statement and apologise.

Interesting how much of the media were both apoplectic with rage on Trump's election and then suddenly cuddly, soft focus on Castro's death. The Right=bad Left=good bias is nakedly exposed.


----------



## The Bread Guy

cavalryman said:
			
		

> #notmyPrimeMinister  :facepalm:


Sorry, that's not how it works.

Note to Team Red Info-machine:  sometimes, less IS more - check how your boss is doing on social media ...  :facepalm: x 1,000

PM's statement also attached for posterity (or evidence) in case the link stops working.


----------



## Stoker




----------



## VinceW

Like father like son.


----------



## George Wallace

Doesn't look good:



> Marco RubioVerified account
> ‏@marcorubio Marco Rubio Retweeted CanadianPM
> Is this a real statement or a parody? Because if this is a real statement from the PM of Canada it is shameful & embarrassing.





> Maxime BernierVerified account
> ‏@MaximeBernier
> .@JustinTrudeau Praising Fidel Castro as a "remarkable leader" is REPUGNANT. http://bit.ly/2gxgU6T  #polcan





> Justin TrudeauVerified account
> ‏@JustinTrudeau
> Please read my statement on the passing of former Cuban President Fidel Castro:
> http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/11/26/statement-prime-minister-canada-death-former-cuban-president-fidel-castro






Found on: https://twitter.com/hashtag/notmyprimeminister


----------



## rmc_wannabe

Question Period should be entertaining on Monday...  :nod:


----------



## jollyjacktar

CBC is culling most of the anti-Trudope comments on the story about the backlash. It must be a dark day for them.


----------



## dimsum

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> Question Period should be entertaining on Monday...  :nod:



Yes it will.  Whoever wrote that is probably looking for a job right now.


----------



## Kirkhill

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/26/fidel-castro-cubas-revolutionary-icon-dead-aged-90-latest/

The Telegraph in the UK lines us up with France's Hollande, Venezuela, Jeremy Corbyn, Putin and Obama.....

Oh, and I forgot, China.


----------



## the 48th regulator




----------



## Loachman

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Yes it will.  Whoever wrote that is probably looking for a job right now.



That sounds lovely, especially as it looks like he wrote it himself.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/26/fidel-castro-cubas-revolutionary-icon-dead-aged-90-latest/
> 
> The Telegraph in the UK lines us up with France's Hollande, Venezuela, Jeremy Corbyn, Putin and Obama.....
> 
> Oh, and I forgot, China.



Awesome.   Great to be lumped in with the commies and lefties.  Thanks Trudope.  :


----------



## George Wallace

Loachman said:
			
		

> That sounds lovely, especially as it looks like he wrote it himself.



And it was not just one post, but several throughout the day.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Truedope is in full damage control mode now and  :backpedalling:  like fucking mad   :rofl:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-castro-dictator-1.3869851


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Truedope is in full damage control mode now and  :backpedalling:  like fucking mad   :rofl:
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-castro-dictator-1.3869851


What is "official statement-ed" cannot be un-"official-statement-ed" ...


----------



## George Wallace

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Truedope is in full damage control mode now and  :backpedalling:  like fucking mad   :rofl:
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-castro-dictator-1.3869851



They do have to back their poster boy in order to guarantee receiving funding.   [


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting to find some bringing up "Canada's Watergate" in discussions about this matter. 

Canada's Watergate -- The Story of Treason in Ottawa By Patrick ("Pat") Walsh [Former RCMP Special Agent] 

'The Featherbed File'

Inside The Featherbed File ~ Canada’s Watergate — The Story of Treason in Ottawa by Patrick Walsh

[EDIT -- Interesting chapter from above link: Trudeau Spearheads Fabian Takeover. ]


----------



## George Wallace

LOL! File:

(The things you find on the Internet)

gofundme -- Send the Trudeau Family to Cuba



> I am a concerned Canadian citizen who wants to raise money to send Justin Trudeau to Cuba to become and next President of Cuba and the money will be made to pay for airfare for him and his family to get there as they have wasted enough from the Canadian taxpayers.
> 
> The sooner we have the funds the better as the funeral for Fidel Castro will probably be within the week.This means so much to me because I want to save Canada from any more damage from this imbecile and since he is such a lover of Fidel Castro he may go to Cuba and run the country in the same manner.
> 
> I as well as millions of Canadians will be extremely thankfull for this so that we may elect a new government and get Canada back to being where it belongs on the world stage and not looking out from the curtains.
> 
> Help spread the word!


----------



## ModlrMike

The irony of those clamoring for democracy celebrating Castro's "presidency" is almost palpable.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Wow. That was quite the web cleanup.


----------



## George Wallace

CNN weighs in.

Both CNN and USA Today are having a field day publishing the various screen captures from Twitter feeds.


----------



## a_majoor

Was sitting in the Kingston kitchen watching the news yesterday morning and noted a few things about the CBC:

1. The commentator never said the word "Communist" during the time we were watching. We even discussed setting up a pool, but had to leave for class before he mentioned it (if he ever did).
2. The same CBC announcer looked genuinely puzzled when the report cut away to Cuban exiles dancing in the streets of "Little Havana" in Miami. "Why are people celebrating the death of a man like Castro?" his facial expression seemed to say.

#trudeaueulogies is hilarious

And a picture to summarize Socialism:


----------



## a_majoor

Summing up Castro:


----------



## jollyjacktar

CBC is reporting that the GG will attend a memorial service for Castro and that the PM shall not be attending.  (First smart thing he's done all week, maybe he can learn from his mistakes.)


----------



## tomahawk6

I dont see how anyone can go to the funeral of Fidel Castro.It only enhances Castro.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> CBC is reporting that the GG will attend a memorial service for Castro and that the PM shall not be attending.  (First smart thing he's done all week, maybe he can learn from his mistakes.)



Probably has more selfies to take. I'm no good with photoshop, but I bet someone could make a picture of him taking a selfie with Castro in his coffin look pretty good.


----------



## the 48th regulator

recceguy said:
			
		

> Probably has more selfies to take. I'm no good with photoshop, but I bet someone could make a picture of him taking a selfie with Castro in his coffin look pretty good.



God you are so lucky I love you like a brother!!!!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

John Tescione said:
			
		

> God you are so lucky I love you like a brother!!!!



Brothers from different mothers.  ;D


----------



## a_majoor

So lets take a look at what our Young Dauphin was praising, shall we? (Part 1)

http://www.city-journal.org/html/last-communist-city-13649.html



> *The Last Communist City*
> A visit to the dystopian Havana that tourists never see
> Michael J. Totten
> Spring 2014
> 
> Neill Blomkamp’s 2013 science-fiction film Elysium, starring Matt Damon and Jodie Foster, takes place in Los Angeles, circa 2154. The wealthy have moved into an orbiting luxury satellite—the Elysium of the title—while the wretched majority of humans remain in squalor on Earth. The film works passably as an allegory for its director’s native South Africa, where racial apartheid was enforced for nearly 50 years, but it’s a rather cartoonish vision of the American future. Some critics panned the film for pushing a socialist message. Elysium’s dystopian world, however, is a near-perfect metaphor for an actually existing socialist nation just 90 miles from Florida.
> 
> I’ve always wanted to visit Cuba—not because I’m nostalgic for a botched utopian fantasy but because I wanted to experience Communism firsthand. When I finally got my chance several months ago, I was startled to discover how much the Cuban reality lines up with Blomkamp’s dystopia. In Cuba, as in Elysium, a small group of economic and political elites live in a rarefied world high above the impoverished masses. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, authors of The Communist Manifesto, would be appalled by the misery endured by Cuba’s ordinary citizens and shocked by the relatively luxurious lifestyles of those who keep the poor down by force.
> 
> Many tourists return home convinced that the Cuban model succeeds where the Soviet model failed. But that’s because they never left Cuba’s Elysium.
> 
> I had to lie to get into the country. Customs and immigration officials at Havana’s tiny, dreary José Martí International Airport would have evicted me had they known I was a journalist. But not even a total-surveillance police state can keep track of everything and everyone all the time, so I slipped through. It felt like a victory. Havana, the capital, is clean and safe, but there’s nothing to buy. It feels less natural and organic than any city I’ve ever visited. Initially, I found Havana pleasant, partly because I wasn’t supposed to be there and partly because I felt as though I had journeyed backward in time. But the city wasn’t pleasant for long, and it certainly isn’t pleasant for the people living there. It hasn’t been so for decades.
> 
> Outside its small tourist sector, the rest of the city looks as though it suffered a catastrophe on the scale of Hurricane Katrina or the Indonesian tsunami. Roofs have collapsed. Walls are splitting apart. Window glass is missing. Paint has long vanished. It’s eerily dark at night, almost entirely free of automobile traffic. I walked for miles through an enormous swath of destruction without seeing a single tourist. Most foreigners don’t know that this other Havana exists, though it makes up most of the city—tourist buses avoid it, as do taxis arriving from the airport. It is filled with people struggling to eke out a life in the ruins.
> 
> Marxists have ruled Cuba for more than a half-century now. Fidel Castro, Argentine guerrilla Che Guevara, and their 26th of July Movement forced Fulgencio Batista from power in 1959 and replaced his standard-issue authoritarian regime with a Communist one. The revolutionaries promised liberal democracy, but Castro secured absolute power and flattened the country with a Marxist-Leninist battering ram. The objectives were total equality and the abolition of money; the methods were total surveillance and political prisons. The state slogan, then and now, is “socialism or death.”
> 
> Cuba was one of the world’s richest countries before Castro destroyed it—and the wealth wasn’t just in the hands of a tiny elite. “Contrary to the myth spread by the revolution,” wrote Alfred Cuzan, a professor of political science at the University of West Florida, “Cuba’s wealth before 1959 was not the purview of a privileged few. . . . Cuban society was as much of a middle-class society as Argentina and Chile.” In 1958, Cuba had a higher per-capita income than much of Europe. “More Americans lived in Cuba prior to Castro than Cubans lived in the United States,” Cuban exile Humberto Fontova, author of a series of books about Castro and Guevara, tells me. “This was at a time when Cubans were perfectly free to leave the country with all their property. In the 1940s and 1950s, my parents could get a visa for the United States just by asking. They visited the United States and voluntarily returned to Cuba. More Cubans vacationed in the U.S. in 1955 than Americans vacationed in Cuba. Americans considered Cuba a tourist playground, but even more Cubans considered the U.S. a tourist playground.” Havana was home to a lot of that prosperity, as is evident in the extraordinary classical European architecture that still fills the city. Poor nations do not—cannot—build such grand or elegant cities.
> 
> But rather than raise the poor up, Castro and Guevara shoved the rich and the middle class down. The result was collapse. “Between 1960 and 1976,” Cuzan says, “Cuba’s per capita GNP in constant dollars declined at an average annual rate of almost half a percent. The country thus has the tragic distinction of being the only one in Latin America to have experienced a drop in living standards over the period.”
> Communism destroyed Cuba’s prosperity, but the country experienced unprecedented pain and deprivation when Moscow cut off its subsidies after the fall of the Soviet Union. Journalist and longtime Cuba resident Mark Frank writes vividly about this period in his book Cuban Revelations. “The lights were off more than they were on, and so too was the water. . . . Food was scarce and other consumer goods almost nonexistent. . . . Doctors set broken bones without anesthesia. . . . Worm dung was the only fertilizer.” He quotes a nurse who tells him that Cubans “used to make hamburgers out of grapefruit rinds and banana peels; we cleaned with lime and bitter orange and used the black powder in batteries for hair dye and makeup.” “It was a haunting time,” Frank wrote, “that still sends shivers down Cubans’ collective spines.”
> 
> By the 1990s, Cuba needed economic reform as much as a gunshot victim needs an ambulance. Castro wasn’t about to reform himself and his ideology out of existence, but he had to open up at least a small piece of the country to the global economy. So the Soviet subsidy was replaced by vacationers, mostly from Europe and Latin America, who brought in much-needed hard currency. Arriving foreigners weren’t going to tolerate receiving ration cards for food—as the locals do—so the island also needed some restaurants. The regime thus allowed paladars—restaurants inside private homes—to open, though no one from outside the family could work in them. (That would be “exploitative.”) Around the same time, government-run “dollar stores” began selling imported and relatively luxurious goods to non-Cubans. Thus was Cuba’s quasi-capitalist bubble created.
> 
> When the ailing Fidel Castro ceded power to his less doctrinaire younger brother Raúl in 2008, the quasi-capitalist bubble expanded, but the economy remains heavily socialist. In the United States, we have a minimum wage; Cuba has a maximum wage—$20 a month for almost every job in the country. (Professionals such as doctors and lawyers can make a whopping $10 extra a month.) Sure, Cubans get “free” health care and education, but as Cuban exile and Yale historian Carlos Eire says, “All slave owners need to keep their slaves healthy and ensure that they have the skills to perform their tasks.”
> 
> Even employees inside the quasi-capitalist bubble don’t get paid more. The government contracts with Spanish companies such as Meliá International to manage Havana’s hotels. Before accepting its contract, Meliá said that it wanted to pay workers a decent wage. The Cuban government said fine, so the company pays $8–$10 an hour. But Meliá doesn’t pay its employees directly. Instead, the firm gives the compensation to the government, which then pays the workers—but only after pocketing most of the money. I asked several Cubans in my hotel if that arrangement is really true. All confirmed that it is. The workers don’t get $8–$10 an hour; they get 67 cents a day—a child’s allowance.
> 
> The maximum wage is just the beginning. Not only are most Cubans not allowed to have money; they’re hardly allowed to have things. The police expend extraordinary manpower ensuring that everyone required to live miserably at the bottom actually does live miserably at the bottom. Dissident blogger and author Yoani Sánchez describes the harassment sarcastically in her book Havana Real: “Buses are stopped in the middle of the street and bags inspected to see if we are carrying some cheese, a lobster, or some dangerous shrimp hidden among our personal belongings.” Perhaps the saddest symptom of Cuba’s state-enforced poverty is the prostitution epidemic—a problem the government officially denies and even forbids foreign journalists based in Havana to mention. Some Cuban prostitutes are professionals, but many are average women—wives, girlfriends, sisters, mothers—who solicit johns once or twice a year for a little extra money to make ends meet.
> 
> The government defends its maximum wage by arguing that life’s necessities are either free or so deeply subsidized in Cuba that citizens don’t need very much money. (Che Guevara and his sophomoric hangers-on hoped to rid Cuba of money entirely, but couldn’t quite pull it off.) The free and subsidized goods and services, though, are as dismal as everything else on the island. Citizens who take public transportation to work—which includes almost everyone, since Cuba hardly has any cars—must wait in lines for up to two hours each way to get on a bus. And commuters must pay for their ride out of their $20 a month. At least commuter buses are cheap. By contrast, a one-way ticket to the other side of the island costs several months’ pay; a round-trip costs almost an annual salary.
> 
> As for the free health care, patients have to bring their own medicine, their own bedsheets, and even their own iodine to the hospital. Most of these items are available only on the illegal black market, moreover, and must be paid for in hard currency—and sometimes they’re not available at all. Cuba has sent so many doctors abroad—especially to Venezuela, in exchange for oil—that the island is now facing a personnel shortage. “I don’t want to say there are no doctors left,” says an American man who married a Cuban woman and has been back dozens of times, “but the island is now almost empty. I saw a banner once, hanging from somebody’s balcony, that said, DO I NEED TO GO TO VENEZUELA FOR MY HEADACHE?”
> 
> Housing is free, too, but so what? Americans can get houses in abandoned parts of Detroit for only $500—which makes them practically free—but no one wants to live in a crumbling house in a gone-to-the-weeds neighborhood. I saw adequate housing in the Cuban countryside, but almost everyone in Havana lives in a Detroit-style wreck, with caved-in roofs, peeling paint, and doors hanging on their hinges at odd angles.
> 
> Education is free, and the country is effectively 100 percent literate, thanks to Castro’s campaign to teach rural people to read shortly after he took power. But the regime has yet to make a persuasive argument that a totalitarian police state was required to get the literacy rate from 80 percent to 100 percent. After all, almost every other country in the Western Hemisphere managed the same feat at the same time, without the brutal repression.
> 
> Cuba is short of everything but air and sunshine. In her book, Sánchez describes an astonishing appearance by Raúl Castro on television, during which he boasted that the economy was doing so well now that everyone could drink milk. “To me,” Sánchez wrote, “someone who grew up on a gulp of orange-peel tea, the news seemed incredible.” She never thought she’d see the day. “I believed we would put a man on the moon, take first place among all nations in the upcoming Olympics, or discover a vaccine for AIDS before we would put the forgotten morning café con leche, coffee with milk, within reach of every person on this island.” And yet Raúl’s promise of milk for all was deleted from the transcription of the speech in Granma, the Communist Party newspaper. He went too far: there was not enough milk to ensure that everyone got some.
> 
> Even things as simple as cooking oil and soap are black-market goods. Individuals who, by some illegal means or another, manage to acquire such desirables will stand on street corners and whisper “cooking oil” or “sugar” to passersby, and then sell the product on the sly out of their living room. If they’re caught, both sellers and buyers will be arrested, of course, but the authorities can’t put the entire country in jail. “Everyone cheats,” says Eire. “One must in order to survive. The verb ‘to steal’ has almost vanished from usage. Breaking the rules is necessary. Resolví mi problema, which means ‘I solved my problem,’ is the Cuban way of referring to stealing or cheating or selling on the black market.”
> 
> Cuba has two economies now: the national Communist economy for the majority; and a quasi-capitalist one for foreigners and the elite. Each has its own currency: the Communist economy uses the Cuban peso, and the capitalist bubble uses the convertible peso. Cuban pesos are worth nothing. They can’t be converted to dollars or euros. Foreigners can’t even spend them in Cuba. The convertible pesos are pegged to the U.S. dollar, but banks and hotels pay only 87 Cuban cents for each one—the government takes 13 percent off the top. The rigged exchange rate is an easy way to shake down foreigners without most noticing. It also enables the state to drain Cuban exiles. A million Cuban-Americans live in south Florida, and another half-million live elsewhere in the United States. They send hundreds of millions of dollars a year to family members still on the island. The government gets its 13 percent instantaneously and most of the remaining 87 percent later because almost every place that someone can spend the money is owned by the state.
> 
> Castro created the convertible peso mainly to seal off Cuba’s little capitalist bubble from the ragged majority in the Communist economy. “Foreign journalists report on the creation of ever more luxurious hotels, golf courses, and marinas,” Eire says, “but fail to highlight the very simple and brutal fact that these facilities will be enjoyed strictly by foreigners and the Castronoid power elite. Apartheid, discrimination, and segregation are deliberately built in to the entire tourist industry and, in fact, are essential to its maintenance and survival.”


----------



## a_majoor

Remember, our Prime Minister "Admires" this sort of political order as well: (Part 2)



> Until a few years ago, ordinary Cubans weren’t allowed even to set foot inside hotels or restaurants unless they worked there, lest they find themselves exposed to the seductive lifestyles of the decadent bourgeoisie from capitalist nations like Mexico, Chile, and Spain. (I cite these three countries because most of the tourists I ran into spoke Spanish to one another.) A few years ago, the government stopped physically blocking Cubans from hotels and restaurants, partly because Raúl is a little more relaxed about these things than Fidel but also because most Cubans can’t afford to go to these places, anyway.
> 
> A single restaurant meal in Havana costs an entire month’s salary. One night in a hotel costs five months’ salary. A middle-class tourist from abroad can easily spend more in one day than most Cubans make in a year. I had dinner with four Americans at one of the paladars. The only Cubans in the restaurant were the cooks and the waiters. The bill for the five of us came to about $100. That’s five months’ salary.
> The Floridita bar in downtown Havana was one of Ernest Hemingway’s hangouts when he lived there (from 1940 until 1960, the year after Castro came to power). He was in the Floridita all the time—and, in a way, he still is. There’s a statue of him sitting on his favorite bar stool, grinning at today’s patrons. The décor is exactly the same, but there’s a big difference: everyone in the bar these days is a tourist. Cubans aren’t strictly banned any more, but a single bottle of beer costs a week’s salary. No one would blow his dismal paycheck on that.
> If he were still around, Hemingway would be stunned to see what has happened to his old haunt. Cubans certainly aren’t happy about it, but the tourists are another story—especially the world’s remaining Marxoid fellow travelers, who show up in Havana by the planeload. Such people are clearly unteachable. I got into an argument with one at the Floridita when I pointed out that none of the patrons were Cuban. “There are places in the United States that some can’t afford,” she retorted. Sure, but come on. Not even the poorest Americans have to pay a week’s wage for a beer.
> 
> Cubans in the hotel industry see how foreigners live. The government can’t hide it without shutting the hotels down entirely, and it can’t do that because it needs the money. I changed a few hundred American dollars into convertible pesos at the front desk. The woman at the counter didn’t blink when I handed over my cash—she does this all day—but when she first got the job, it must have been shattering to make such an exchange. That’s why the regime wants to keep foreigners and locals apart.
> 
> Tourists tip waiters, taxi drivers, tour guides, and chambermaids in hard currency, and to stave off a revolt from these people, the government lets them keep the additional money, so they’re “rich” compared with everyone else. In fact, they’re an elite class enjoying privileges—enough income to afford a cell phone, go out to restaurants and bars, log on to the Internet once in a while—that ordinary Cubans can’t even dream of. I asked a few people how much chambermaids earn in tips, partly so that I would know how much to leave on my dresser and also to get an idea of just how crazy Cuban economics are. Supposedly, the maids get about $1 per day for each room. If they clean an average of 30 rooms a day and work five days a week, they’ll bring in $600 a month—30 times what everyone else gets. “All animals are equal,” George Orwell wrote in Animal Farm, his allegory of Stalinism, “but some animals are more equal than others.” Only in the funhouse of a Communist country is the cleaning lady rich compared with the lawyer. Yet elite Cubans are impoverished compared with the middle class and even the poor outside Cuba.
> 
> About half the dinners I had were acceptable, and a few were outstanding, but the breakfast buffets in my hotel, the Habana Libre, were uniformly disgusting. Bacon was half-raw, the sausage made from God-knows-what. The cheese was discolored, the bread hard and flavorless. Yet the grim offering was advertised in the lobby as “exquisite.” Maybe if you’ve spent your entire life on a Cuban ration card, it’s exquisite, but otherwise—no. The question wasn’t what I wanted to eat, but what I thought I could eat without my stomach rising up in rebellion.
> 
> Leftists often talk about “food deserts” in Western cities, where the poor supposedly lack options to buy affordable and nutritious food. If they want to see a real food desert, they should come to Havana. I went to a grocery store across the street from the exclusive Meliá Cohiba Hotel, where the lucky few with access to hard currency shop to supplement their meager state rations. The store was in what passes for a mall in Havana—a cluttered concrete box, shabby compared even with malls I’ve visited in Iraq. It carried rice, beans, frozen chicken, milk, bottled water, booze, a small bit of cheese, minuscule amounts of rancid-looking meat, some low-end cookies and chips from Brazil—and that’s it. No produce, cereal, no cans of soup, no pasta. A 7–11 has a far better selection, and this is a place for Cuba’s “rich” to shop. I heard, but cannot confirm, that potatoes would not be available anywhere in Cuba for another four months.
> 
> Shortly before I left Havana, I met a Cuban-American man and his wife visiting from Miami. “Is this your first time here?” he asked. I nodded. “What do you think?” I paused before answering. I wasn’t worried that I would offend him. He lives in Miami, so his opinions of Cuba are probably little different from mine. But we were in a crowded place. Plenty of Cubans could hear us, including the police. They wouldn’t arrest me if I insulted the government, but I didn’t want to make a scene, either. “Well,” I finally said. “It’s . . . interesting.” He belted out a great belly laugh, and I smiled. His wife scowled.
> 
> “I hate this place!” she near-shouted. Fidel himself could have heard, and she wouldn’t have cared. She wasn’t going to be quiet about it. Tourists who visit Cuba and spend all their time inside the bubble for the “haves” could leave the country oblivious to the savage inequalities and squalor beyond the hotel zone, but this woman visits her husband’s family in the real Cuba and knows what it’s really like.
> “His family is from here,” she said, “but mine’s not, and I will never come back here. Not while it’s like this. I feel like I’m in Iraq or Afghanistan.” I visited Iraq seven times during the war and didn’t have the heart to tell her that Baghdad, while ugly and dangerous, is vastly freer and more prosperous these days than Havana. Anyway, Iraq is precisely the kind of country with which Castro wants you to compare Cuba. It’s the wrong comparison. So are impoverished Third World countries like Guatemala and Haiti. Cuba isn’t a developing country; it’s a once-developed country destroyed by its own government. Havana was a magnificent Western city once. It should be compared not with Baghdad, Kabul, Guatemala City, or Port-au-Prince but with formerly Communist Budapest, Prague, or Berlin. Havana’s history mirrors theirs, after all.
> 
> An advertisement in my hotel claimed that the Sierra Maestra restaurant on the top floor is “probably” the best in Havana. I had saved the Sierra Maestra for my last night and rode the elevator up to the 25th floor. I had my first and only steak on the island and washed it down with Chilean red wine. The tiny bill set me back no more than having a pizza delivered at home would, but the total nevertheless exceeded an entire month’s local salary. Not surprisingly, I ate alone. Every other table was empty. The staff waited on me as if I were the president of some faraway minor republic.
> 
> I stared at the city below out the window as I sipped my red wine. Havana looked like a glittering metropolis in the dark. Night washed away the rot and the grime and revealed nothing but city lights. It occurred to me that Havana will look mostly the same—at night, anyway—after it is liberated from the tyrannical imbeciles who govern it now. I tried to pretend that I was looking out on a Cuba that was already free and that the tables around me were occupied—by local people, not foreigners—but the fantasy faded fast. I was all alone at the top of Cuba’s Elysium and yearning for home—where capitalism’s inequalities are not so jagged and stark.
> 
> Michael J. Totten is a City Journal contributing editor and the author of five books, including The Road to Fatima Gate.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Micheal Totten is always good reading


----------



## Lightguns

I been following this story on social media and I love all the indignation directed at those showing indignation at PMJT comments.  The sun worshippers claiming that, "they never see repression and they are there 3 to 4 full weeks a year"!  "A peaceful paradise full of happy educated hard working people who make wonderful drinks" another vacationer says.


----------



## The Bread Guy

On soc media, I'm seeing the whole, "well, don't forget that they've been under threat from the U.S., and remember how Canada/U.S. treated Japanese/Italians during WW2."  Yeah, we've f@#$%^ed up in the past, but nobody's been able to answer the question:  why are there some countries where people are fleeing, and get punished for fleeing/trying to, and other countries some see as sooooooooooo bad that these flee-ers are fleeing _TO_?  Or is it like the East Germans/Soviets running away, being ingrates for all the great things they had on the other side?

Also, when folks bring up how great Cuban health care might be, while the U.S. embargo played a role, how to you praise a system when it has to collect equipment donations from Canada and elsewhere?


----------



## Lightguns

It is Cuban penal policy to remove 4 to 7 pints of blood from any prisoner who is sentenced to be shot.  The blood is then sold to foreign patients using the Cuban health system. There is some really strange stuff going on in Cuba.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Lightguns said:
			
		

> It is Cuban penal policy to remove 4 to 7 pints of blood from any prisoner who is sentenced to be shot.  The blood is then sold to foreign patients using the Cuban health system. There is some really strange stuff going on in Cuba.


First I've heard of such a thing, but with similar practices in China, not _entirely_ surprising.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Waste not, want not.   :nod:


----------



## Canuck_Jock

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> CBC is reporting that the GG will attend a memorial service for Castro and that the PM shall not be attending.  (First smart thing he's done all week, maybe he can learn from his mistakes.)



Sending the Governor General to the funeral? FFS, send a buckshee Liberal politician, don't send the GG. Castro was the former head of state of a repressive regime, we should only send token representation.


----------



## ModlrMike

It's probably considered a diplomatic form of reciprocity. After all, Castro came to Trudeau's funeral.


----------



## the 48th regulator

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> It's probably considered a diplomatic form of reciprocity. After all, Castro came to Trudeau's funeral.



And an Honourary PallBearer to PET.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> Micheal Totten is always good reading



Should send the article to the Premier of Quebec and the leader of the Opposition who seem to think Castro and Che were the greatest things since sliced bread.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

John Tescione said:
			
		

> And an Honourary PallBearer to PET.



Perhaps he came up here to console his son.  :rofl:


----------



## the 48th regulator

recceguy said:
			
		

> Perhaps he came up here to console his son.  :rofl:



 :threat:

 :rofl:


----------



## the 48th regulator

I need help.

I saw a hillarious poitical Cartoon.  It has Justin Trudeau in a bedroom with a huge Castro painting on the wall. JT lying on the bed like a teenager, talking on the phone with a Castro teddy.  I love it, but can't find it!

dileas

tess


----------



## George Wallace

John Tescione said:
			
		

> I need help.
> 
> I saw a hillarious poitical Cartoon.  It has Justin Trudeau in a bedroom with a huge Castro painting on the wall. JT lying on the bed like a teenager, talking on the phone with a Castro teddy.  I love it, but can't find it!
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



It was in the Halifax Chronicle Herald:







Posted in The MEGA Political Cartoon Thread thread of Radio Chatter: http://army.ca/forums/threads/123289/post-1465990.html#msg1465990


----------



## the 48th regulator

Booom,

Thank you George!!!

I know, I know. I am a Truead/Lib, but the cartoons out there like this one make me laugh, they are brilliant!!


----------



## mariomike

For anyone interested in statistics,

Fidel Castro slept with 35,000 women and smoked his first cigar aged 14
http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/fidel-castro-quotes


----------



## Old Sweat

I'll accept the cigar at age 14, but at one a day, Castro would have to have started shortly after he lost his umbilical cord to reach that number. (35,000 divided by 365.25 days = 95.8 years) He may have been into twosomes and threesomes and moresomes, but it seems a little much.


----------



## mariomike

“He slept with at least two women a day for more than four decades – one for lunch and one for supper. Sometimes he even ordered one for breakfast,” an ex-Castro official named “Ramon” tells filmmaker Ian Halperin. “I don’t think he would have stayed on as long as he did if not for all the incredible women he had access to as president.” Castro’s security would comb Havana beaches each day recruiting the hottest babes. 

I wonder why he didn't shave off that awful beard?


----------



## Loachman

Stunning resemblance.

Did Margaret ever hang out on Havana beaches...?


----------



## cavalryman

Loachman said:
			
		

> Stunning resemblance.
> 
> Did Margaret ever hang out on Havana beaches...?


She was one among many...Viva Justin.  Viva fundraising.  Viva sunny ways [Xp


----------



## mariomike

Thought you guys would like it. Enjoy!


----------



## Old Sweat

Neat theory, but the Trudeaus first visited Cuba in 1976, when Justin was a little kid. Now we could turn the birthers loose, but come on.


----------



## mariomike

?

http://www.snopes.com/justin-trudeau-is-fidel-castros-love-child/


----------



## cavalryman

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Neat theory, but the Trudeaus first visited Cuba in 1976, when Justin was a little kid. Now we could turn the birthers loose, but come on.


Apparently, Margaret got around... just sayin'  ;D


----------



## mariomike




----------



## The Bread Guy

A Canadian angle here ...


> *Canadians in Cuba were also treated for hearing loss, Ottawa says amid U.S. probe of possible attack*
> _Confirmation of health issue comes day after U.S. says diplomats in Havana targeted by sonic weapon_
> CBC News Posted: Aug 10, 2017 1:15 PM ET Last Updated: Aug 10, 2017 4:46 PM ET
> 
> Global Affairs Canada has confirmed at least one Canadian diplomat in Cuba has been treated in hospital after suffering headaches and hearing loss.
> 
> The information comes a day after the U.S. government said it believed some of its diplomats in Havana had been targeted with a covert sonic device that left them with severe hearing loss.
> 
> The Canadian diplomat's family members were also affected and treated.
> 
> "We are aware of unusual symptoms affecting Canadian and U.S. diplomatic personnel and their families in Havana. The government is actively working — including with U.S. and Cuban authorities — to ascertain the cause," said Brianne Maxwell, a Global Affairs Canada spokesperson.
> 
> "At this time, we do not have any reason to believe Canadian tourists and other visitors could be affected," Maxwell added.
> 
> Global Affairs did not identify the diplomat or say when the hospitalization took place.
> 
> An investigation is focused on identifying the technology used as well as who was using it.
> 
> The Associated Press reported Wednesday that a months-long U.S. investigation had determined its diplomats had been attacked by a device that operates outside the range of normal audible sound, and used outside or inside the diplomats' residences ...


More @ link


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hmmm - highlights mine ...


> *U.S. to slash embassy staff in Cuba, warns travelers of hotel attacks*
> _September 29, 2017, Carol Morello, Washington Post (via matthewaid.com)_
> 
> The United States is yanking more than half its diplomatic personnel from its embassy in Havana and warning Americans not to visit Cuba, saying it is for their own safety after a string of mysterious injuries harmed at least 21 Americans stationed there.
> 
> Senior State Department officials said embassy employees have been “targeted” for “specific attacks,” a significant change from previous characterizations of what happened as simply “incidents.”
> 
> Some of the diplomats were injured in at least one hotel in the Cuban capital, the Capri near the embassy. Employees temporarily deployed to the mission were staying there. The officials said they know of no other guests or hotel employees who were affected, but concern that others might be hurt prompted them to issue a broader warning advising against travel to Cuba.
> 
> “We have no reports that private U.S. citizens have been affected, but the attacks are known to have occurred in U.S. diplomatic residences and hotels frequented by U.S. citizens,” said Secretary of State Rex Tillerson in a statement. “The Department does not have definitive answers on the cause or source of the attacks and is unable to recommend a means to mitigate exposure.”
> 
> The withdrawal order applies to all nonessential staff and their families. Only “emergency personnel” will stay. The skeletal staff is being kept to assist U.S. citizens in Cuba who have pressing issues, but more routine diplomatic and consular functions will likely be slowed.
> 
> The diplomatic drawdown means that no visas will be processed at the embassy because there will not be enough people to do the work.
> 
> In addition, only U.S. government officials involved with the ongoing investigation or who need to travel there for national security or critical embassy operations will be allowed to travel to Cuba, the officials said. No U.S. delegations will visit Cuba for bilateral meetings, although they may meet in the United States.
> 
> “The reduction in diplomatic presence was made to ensure the safety of our personnel,” said one official. “We maintain diplomatic relations with Cuba, and our work in Cuba will be guided by national security and foreign policy goals of the United States.”
> 
> The State Department has acknowledged that at least 21 Americans connected to the embassy have been hurt in the attacks, the most recent of which occurred in August. *No Cuban employees of the embassy have complained of any symptoms, only American diplomats.****
> 
> Among the health symptoms are hearing loss, dizziness, tinnitus, balance problems, visual difficulties, headaches, fatigue, cognitive issues and sleeping difficulties.
> 
> Nearly 10 months after the first complaints surfaced, neither U.S. nor Cuban investigators are any closer to identifying what is causing the injuries, or who is responsible. Investigators are looking into the possibility that they were subjected to some sort of “sonic attack,” among other theories, though it is not clear why American diplomats and *a handful of Canadian envoys* would be the only ones to complain of symptoms.
> 
> Cuba has denied having anything to do with the injuries. Among the possibilities being explored is that agents acting on behalf of a third country may be responsible ...


Meanwhile, from the State Dep't info-machine:


> *Actions Taken in Response to Attacks on U.S. Government Personnel in Cuba*
> _Remarks, Rex W. Tillerson, Secretary of State, Washington, DC, September 29, 2017_
> 
> Over the past several months, 21 U.S. Embassy employees have suffered a variety of injuries from attacks of an unknown nature. The affected individuals have exhibited a range of physical symptoms, including ear complaints, hearing loss, dizziness, headache, fatigue, cognitive issues, and difficulty sleeping. Investigators have been unable to determine who is responsible or what is causing these attacks.
> 
> On September 29, the Department ordered the departure of non-emergency personnel assigned to the U.S. Embassy in Havana, as well as all family members. Until the Government of Cuba can ensure the safety of our diplomats in Cuba, our Embassy will be reduced to emergency personnel in order to minimize the number of diplomats at risk of exposure to harm.
> 
> In conjunction with the ordered departure of our diplomatic personnel, the Department has issued a Travel Warning advising U.S. citizens to avoid travel to Cuba and informing them of our decision to draw down our diplomatic staff. We have no reports that private U.S. citizens have been affected, but the attacks are known to have occurred in U.S. diplomatic residences and hotels frequented by U.S. citizens. The Department does not have definitive answers on the cause or source of the attacks and is unable to recommend a means to mitigate exposure.
> 
> The decision to reduce our diplomatic presence in Havana was made to ensure the safety of our personnel. We maintain diplomatic relations with Cuba, and our work in Cuba continues to be guided by the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States. Cuba has told us it will continue to investigate these attacks and we will continue to cooperate with them in this effort.
> 
> The health, safety, and well-being of our Embassy community is our greatest concern. We will continue to aggressively investigate these attacks until the matter is resolved.


*** - Realizing, of course, that "they didn't complain" may not be the same as "they had no symptoms"


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Saw a news article that most of the staff suffering from the attacks where the spies, Intelligence officers and likely spy handlers.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Interesting article on whether the "sonic" attack actually took place:



> THE “SONIC ATTACK” ON U.S. DIPLOMATS IN CUBA: Why the State Department’s Claims Don’t Add Up
> BY ROBERT E. BARTHOLOMEW
> 
> _…an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof. _
> —Marcello Truzzi1
> 
> Even though sound is measurable, we tend to experience it as spectral, as something beyond our rational understanding. It is thus the perfect stand-in for a Cold War-style cunning enemy, who is surely out there, doing something, even though we can never seem to pin him down.
> —Lisa Dierch & Ben Tausig2
> 
> It’s the stuff of spy novels and science fiction films. On October 13, 2017 the Associated Press released an eerie recording of a mysterious sound that was said to have been part of a “sonic attack” on American diplomats in Cuba.3 In August, State Department officials reported that several personnel at the Havana Embassy had been sickened by an unidentified acoustical weapon. The number of those affected in the sporadic, ongoing attacks is now at least two dozen. Several Canadian diplomats have reported similar health complaints. Symptoms include headaches, dizziness, nausea, fatigue, difficulty concentrating and remembering, insomnia, tinnitus, confusion, vertigo, hearing loss and “mild brain trauma.” Conspiracy theories abound with talk of secret military weapons from a foreign power or rogue agents, possibly Russian. But delve deeper, and the government’s claims begin to unravel.
> 
> For starters, there is no concrete evidence of an attack. Experts agree that what is being reported is not consistent with how sonic weaponry works. A leading figure in the field of psychoacoustics, former MIT researcher Joseph Pompei, is adamant that the State Department’s claims violate the laws of physics. “Brain damage and concussions, it’s not possible,” he said, noting that to produce such an effect “Somebody would have to submerge their head into a pool lined with very powerful ultrasound transducers.”4 German physicist and acoustics specialist Jürgen Altmann of Technology University Dortmund, concurs: “I know of no acoustic effect that can cause concussion symptoms. Sound going through the air cannot shake your head.”5 Former Brown University neuroscientist Seth Horowitz also views the claims as fanciful: “There isn’t an acoustic phenomenon in the world that would cause those type of symptoms.”6 He notes that while infrasonic sound waves can cause nausea, they would have no effect on human hearing as “there are no acoustic devices that can cause sudden onset hearing loss that the people involved could not hear.”7 Former CIA officer Fulton Armstrong agrees: “No one has a device that could do this” as “no such device exists.”8
> 
> The range of human hearing is between 20 and 20,000 hertz. Sounds below this level—infrasound, have proved a challenge to weaponize due to the difficulty in focusing the wavelengths. The central effect appears to be irritation. Sounds above this range—ultrasound, are an equally poor candidate for the symptoms because the waves dissipate rapidly as they travel. Even if they reached a building in an effort to target people inside, most of the wave would bounce off walls before harmlessly reaching their target.
> 
> Since Weapons?
> 
> The use of sound as a weapon can be traced back to biblical times. The Book of Joshua 6:1–27, describes the Battle of Jericho, during which the walls of Jericho reportedly collapsed after an army of Israelites marched around the structure blowing trumpets. While this story has never been verified and is almost certainly mythical, it speaks to the age-old human fascination with the potential destructive power of sound. The research on the military use of acoustical weapons, is clear. Despite an abundance of conspiracy theories about secret sonic devices capable of “frying” human organs or triggering insanity, the scientific literature is clear. The most comprehensive study of sonic weapons to date, was conducted by Drs. James Jauchem and Michael Cook of the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory in San Antonio, Texas. They state that based on the laws of physics, “it seems unlikely that high-intensity acoustic energy in the audible, infrasonic, or low-frequency range can provide a device suitable for use as a nonlethal weapon.”21 Furthermore, even if such a weapon were developed, it could not possibly cause the symptoms that are being reported in Cuba.
> 
> Sonic weapons may work for James Bond, but they are impractical in the real world, with one major exception: blasting loud noises. On October 12, 2000, a small boat laden with explosives approached the USS Cole and exploded, blowing a hole in the vessel and killing 17 American sailors. Since this incident, the Navy has developed an “acoustical cannon” that works by generating extreme noise capable of causing deafness and headaches. Such weapons are not exactly covert. Research on the use of sonic weapons has tailed off in recent years as it is widely viewed as a waste of research funds and a dead end. Despite this, there is no lack of grandiose claims and conspiracy theories about the use of secret acoustic devices.
> 
> Could someone have developed a hand-held weapon that could focus a wave of energy on a victim with pinpoint accuracy? This is Buck Rogers-style science fiction according to Timothy Leighton, professor of Ultrasonics and Acoustics at Southampton University in the United Kingdom: “If you’re talking about a ray-gun rifle knocking out someone with ultrasound…that’s not going to happen.”9 New York City Police have used Long Range Acoustic Devices or LRADs to break up crowds of protestors, but there is nothing subtle or mysterious about these devices. These bulky machines are nicknamed “sound cannons” due to their capacity to blast ear-piercing noises. The U.S. Navy has used similar devices to protect their ships by warding off small vessels suspected of carrying terrorists or pirates, while the Army has used them to clear houses of combatants.10 In 2015, riot police in the Philippines even blasted Katy Perry music to disperse anti-government protestors.11
> 
> Another oddity surrounds how diplomats have been targeted. Many claim to have been “attacked” in their homes, and even a hotel. Why were some people affected while others who were standing next to them, were not? While the U.S. cannot prove that the Cubans are responsible, White House Chief of Staff John Kelly has suggested that the Cuban government knows more than they are letting on. “We believe that the Cuban government could stop the attacks on our diplomats,” he said.12 Cuban President Raúl Castro vehemently denies any involvement in the “attacks” and has taken the extraordinary step of inviting the Federal Bureau of Investigation to travel to Cuba and conduct their own investigation.13 Since June, FBI agents have been on the Caribbean island conducting forensic analyses of the possible crime scenes, but remain stumped.14 This leaves one plausible explanation for the illness cluster in Cuba: mass psychogenic illness.
> 
> To those who are unfamiliar with the capabilities of sonic weaponry, the claims may sound ominous—and very real. After all, how can conditions like hearing loss and brain trauma be psychological in origin? State Department officials have even released a recording of the “weapon” in action. Yet the recording proves little. The high-pitched whine sounds like a swarm of cicadas. It could be anything. It is the equivalent of a blurry UFO photograph or grainy Bigfoot video. Furthermore, most of the symptoms are vague. Terms like “brain trauma” and “hearing loss” sound alarming but tell us little, and none of the medical records have been released. This could be done without violating privacy laws by redacting the names and identifying information about the “victims.” How many diplomats are suffering from hearing loss, and is it partial or total? Why haven’t they given us more specific figures? Is it one case or 17—and if it is the latter, why haven’t they said so in order to convince a skeptical media? There may very well be a small number of personnel who are experiencing health issues that are unrelated to either psychogenic illness or a sonic weapon.
> 
> Sick Building Syndrome
> 
> The literature on mass hysteria is filled with reports of so-called “sick buildings” where some harmful agent is blamed for a mysterious illness outbreak, most commonly in schools and factories. However, once the premises are tested, the results are negative. The symptoms often continue to recur, so long as the perceived agent is believed to remain. The failure to identify a potential culprit may generate more anxiety, leading to further outbreaks. Common suspects include pesticides from nearby farm fields, gas leaks, mold, and contaminated water. In these cases, the outbreak is triggered by the spread of an idea, aided by rumors, folklore, and erroneous media reports about the “toxic” building. Often speculation centers around nearby waste dumps. This could explain the illness reports at the Embassy, but what about their homes? Embassy staff would have been aware of the history of American diplomats in Cuba, and the Cold War folklore that included harassment of personnel in their homes.
> 
> Cold War Context
> 
> The historical backdrop of the “attack” may have contributed to the outbreak. The Embassy closed for 54 years, from 1961 when then President Dwight Eisenhower severed ties with Castro’s rise to power, to its reopening in 2015. While the Embassy was closed, the U.S. has maintained a diplomatic presence in Cuba such as the mission at the United States Interests Section in Havana. Due to the antagonistic relationship between the two countries, during the Cold War Cuban agents engaged in a series of antics that have become part of American Intelligence folklore. These actions were more harassing and prankish than sinister. They would do things like sneak into the homes of diplomats and rearrange their bookshelf or furniture. On the high end of the scale, some diplomats reported returning home to find fecal matter lying on their floor. The context of the illness cluster fits neatly with the psychogenic hypothesis as you have a group of people working in an anxious environment amid reports and rumors of a mysterious attack.15
> 
> Earlier Hum Scares
> 
> Since the early 1940s there have been similar outbreaks involving claims of mysterious humming sounds reportedly making people sick, especially in the United States. The most famous of these is the “Kokomo Hum” in the city of Kokomo, Indiana. Some have even suggested that the American military was conducting secret tests on its own citizens. Conspiracy theorists have had a field day with these cases. In 1999, Kokomo city officials were besieged by complaints from at least 90 residents, many of whom claimed that the hum was not only irritating, but ruining their health.16
> 
> A study of one Kokomo neighborhood by an acoustics engineer seemed to confirm the reality of the hum after he reported detecting a low frequency sound at about 55 decibels and 15 hertz—too low to be heard by the human ear. At the time, an expert from the Acoustical Society of America observed that the origin of the sound was unclear. “Those levels of sound could be coming from road traffic on even distant highways, air or rail activity or possibly just some industrial plants or even commercial buildings in the area. And, in fact, those levels could be caused just by the wind in the trees,” said Bennett Brooks. He cautioned that the range of ill-effects attributed to the low frequency hum could be entirely imaginary. “The levels that will rattle dishes on a wall…haven’t been shown to cause health problems, other than perhaps people waking up at night worrying,” Brooks said at the time.17 Some Kokomo residents were so concerned by the “hum” that they moved away.
> 
> Similar claims of ill-health associated with the presence of low-frequency sound have been recorded in Taos, New Mexico, since 1991, but the source has neither been determined nor any conclusive link to ill-health including sleep problems, earaches, irritability, and general discomfort.18 Investigative journalist Oliver Libaw notes that various investigations of the Taos Hum “failed to measure any low-frequency vibration that experts believed could cause either the noise or the infirmities reported by those who heard it.”19
> 
> London and South Hampton in the United Kingdom have had their own Hum Scares. Scores of residents have complained of an irritating low frequency sound dating back to the 1940s. They too have claims that it has caused health problems. In 1989, an organization was formed to investigate reports: The Low Frequency Noise Sufferers Association, nicknamed “the Hummers.”20
> 
> The “sonic attack” on embassy staff in Cuba appears to be a case of old wine in new skins. It is the Hum Scare and Sick Building Syndrome dressed up in a different social and cultural garb. These scares may resonate because they reflect prevailing fears such as the distrust of foreign and domestic governments. It may be no coincidence then that the outbreak reportedly began just days after the election of Donald Trump, an administration known for promoting conspiracy theories. END
> 
> About the Author
> _
> Dr. Robert Bartholomew is a medical sociologist who holds a Ph.D. from James Cook University in Australia. He is an authority on culture-specific mental disorders, outbreaks of mass psychogenic illness, moral panics and the history of tabloid journalism. He has conducted anthropological fieldwork among the Malays in Malaysia and Aborigines in Central Australia. His most recently books are A Colorful History of Popular Delusions with Peter Hassall and American Hauntings: The True Stories Behind Hollywood’s Scariest Movies—From Exorcist to The Conjuring with Joe Nickell. Read his previous article, An Outbreak of Mass Hallucinations and Shoddy Journalism: Why We Need Skepticism More Than Ever._
> 
> References
> 1. Truzzi, Marcello. 1978. “On the Extraordinary: An Attempt at Clarification.” Zetetic Scholar 1(1):11.
> 2. Diedrich, Lisa, and Tausig, Benjamin. 2017. “Mysterious Sounds and Scary Illnesses as Political Tools.” New York Times (Online), New York: New York Times Company. Oct 10.
> 3. Lederman, Josh, Weissenstein, Michael. 2017. “Dangerous Sound? What Americans Heard in Cuba.” Associated Press News, October 13, http://bit.ly/2g4DzrX
> 4. Lederman, Josh, Weissenstein, Michael, and Lee, Matthew. 2017. “Cuba Mystery Grows: New Details on what Befell U.S. Diplomats,” Chicago Tribune, September 26.
> 5. Zimmer, Carl. 2017. “A ‘Sonic Attack’ on Diplomats in Cuba? These Scientists Doubt It.” New York Times, October 5.
> 6. Loria, Kevin. 2017. September 16. “U.S. Diplomats Returned from Cuba with Brain Injuries and Hearing Loss, and Mysterious ‘Sonic Weapons’ could be to Blame.” Business Insider Australia, September 16.
> 7. Gearan, Anne. 2017. “U.S. investigating whether American diplomats were victims of sonic attack in Cuba.” Washington Post, August 10.
> 8. Kornbluh, Peter. 2017. “Trump’s Non-Sonic Attack on Cuba.” The Nation, October 5.
> 9. Zimmer, 2017, op cit.
> 10. Evers, Marco. 2015. “The Weapon of Sound: Sonic Cannon Gives Pirates an Earful.” Der Spiegel, November 15.
> 11. Felipe, Cecille. 2015. “Katy Perry Roar at Anti-APEC Rallyists.” The Philippine Star, November 20.
> 12. Lederman and Weissenstein, 2017, op. cit.
> 13. Buncombe, Andrew. 2017. “Donald Trump expels 15 Cuban Diplomats Following Mysterious ‘Sonic Attacks’ on 23 U.S. embassy staff,” The Independent (London), October 3.
> 14. Kornbluh, 2017, op cit.
> 15. Rosenberg, Carol. 2003. “U.S. Details Harassment of Diplomats by Cuba.” Miami Herald, February 6; Bruno, James. 2014. The Foreign Circus: Why Foreign Policy Should not be left in the Hand of Diplomats, Spies and Political Hacks. Canastota, NY: Bittersweet House Press.
> 16. Huppke, Rex W. 2002. “Strange Doings Abuzz in Kokomo–Many Claim Illness from Mystery Noise.” Bergen County Record (Bergen County, New Jersey), June 13, 2002; Martinez, Matt. 2002. “Profile: City Council in Kokomo, Indiana, Authorizes a Study to Investigate the Source of a Sound that has Caused many Residents to Become ill.” All Things Considered, NPR, May 22.
> 17. Martinez, Matt. 2002. “Profile: City Council in Kokomo, Indiana, Authorizes a Study to Investigate the Source of a Sound that has Caused many Residents to Become ill.” All Things Considered, NPR, May 22.
> 18. Lambert, Pam. 1992. “Hmmmmmmmmmmmm…? (Ground Noise in Taos, New Mexico).” People Weekly 38 (12):61-62 (September 21); Begley, Sharon. 1993. “Do You Hear What I Hear? A Hum in Taos is Driving Dozens of People Crazy.” Newsweek 121 (18):54–55 (May 3); Huppke, op cit.
> 19. Libaw, Oliver. 2003. “The Kokomo Hum. Reports of Mysterious Noise and Illness in Indiana.” ABC News report filed February 14, http://abcn.ws/2ioAyHy
> 20. “The Low Frequency Noise Sufferers Association.” Journal of Low Frequency Noise and Vibration 9(4):149–155; Donnelly, John. 1993. “Mysterious, Annoying ‘Taos Hum’ a Baffling Detective Story.” Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service, July 9.
> 21. Jauchem, James R., and Cook, Michael C. (2007). “High-Intensity Acoustics for Military Nonlethal Applications: A Lack of Useful Systems.” Military Medicine 172 (2):182–189. See. p. 182.



https://www.skeptic.com/reading_roo...-diplomats-cuba-dont-add-up/Article Link[/url


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## BeyondTheNow

Wow, bizarre.


Canadian diplomat in Cuba affected by mysterious brain injury



> 13th time in past 2 years that 'unusual health symptoms' have been reported...concussion-like symptoms...Both countries believe their diplomats have been targeted using an unknown technology, and both the FBI and RCMP are investigating. The U.S. has also imposed sanctions on Cuba over the attacks, though officials in both Washington and Ottawa believe that the Cuban government is probably telling the truth when it denies involvement...



More at link

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-diplomat-cuba-affected-1.4924987


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## CBH99

I'll post some articles on this tomorrow, but the 'sonic weapon' incidents in Cuba have been quite brutal and bizarre indeed.  Hearing loss, brain injuries, the development of scar tissues inside the brain consistent with concussions, the feelings of being concussed.

Even the diplomats, in their respective compounds, had multiple children suffering from 'gushing nose bleeds' all at the same time.


In the US, they've allowed the personnel affected by the incidents to be quite open about it.  Here in Canada, the government has really hushed those involved under the ruse of 'protecting the integrity of the investigation'.  They've even denied the personnel involved to go to the US for specific medical treatments, as saying once they leave the Canadian medical system, they are "no longer covered" - basically leaving them on their own.  

The incidents themselves have been bizarre, and brutal - but brutal in the long term, months after the alleged incidents.  And the way the two countries are handling it really does leave something to be desired, unfortunately, from our end...


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## mariomike

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Wow, bizarre.
> 
> 
> Canadian diplomat in Cuba affected by mysterious brain injury



For reference to the discussion,

Reply #320 on: August 11, 2017

Canadians in Cuba were also treated for hearing loss, Ottawa says amid U.S. probe of possible attack
https://army.ca/forums/threads/2984/post-1499031.html#msg1499031
"Global Affairs Canada has confirmed at least one Canadian diplomat in Cuba has been treated in hospital after suffering headaches and hearing loss."


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## The Bread Guy

On the mystery illness/sonic attack story, here's the latest theory out of Global Affairs Canada ...


> The mysterious ailments experienced by some 40 Canadian and U.S. diplomats and their families while stationed in Cuba may have had nothing to do with sonic "attacks" identified in earlier studies.
> 
> According to a new Canadian study***, obtained exclusively by Radio-Canada's investigative TV program Enquête, the cause could instead be neurotoxic agents used in pesticide fumigation.
> 
> A number of Canadians and Americans living in Havana fell victim to an unexplained illness starting in late 2016, complaining of concussion-like symptoms, including headaches, dizziness, nausea and difficulty concentrating. Some described hearing a buzzing or high-pitched sounds before falling sick.
> 
> In the wake of the health problems experienced over the past three years, Global Affairs Canada commissioned a clinical study by a team of multidisciplinary researchers in Halifax, affiliated with the Brain Repair Centre, Dalhousie University and the Nova Scotia Health Authority.
> 
> "The working hypothesis actually came only after we had most of the results," Dr. Alon Friedman, the study's lead author, said in an interview.
> 
> The researchers identified a damaged region of the brain that is responsible for memory, concentration and sleep-and-wake cycle, among other things, and then looked at how this region could come to be injured.
> 
> "There are very specific types of toxins that affect these kinds of nervous systems ... and these are insecticides, pesticides, organophosphates — specific neurotoxins," said Friedman. "So that's why we generated the hypothesis that we then went to test in other ways."


*** - Study title page & summary (3 pages) attached.


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