# V-Adm Art McDonald new Canadian CDS (Jan-Feb 2021)



## MilEME09 (24 Dec 2020)

I do not know much of him but given the focus on the navy especially with the rebuilding of the fleet I am not surprised by a naval officer becoming CDS, its been a long time since we last had one. Congrats to him!


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## Walt (25 Dec 2020)

Wow......quite surprising, and not in a negative way. I wish the Admiral/New CDS all the best.  He is floating  into a "shit storm" regarding the acquisition of new fighter jets, the building of the navy's surface combatants, and all of the other continuing issues within the CAF. His credentials are impressive; knowledge & experience will guide him.  Time will tell.

Cheers,

Walt


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## Blackadder1916 (13 Feb 2021)

While this may been mentioned in passing once or twice elsewhere on this forum, "circumstances" probably delayed discussion of what is probably the first faux pas of the new CDS.  Though the recent controversy surrounding his predecessor is a much more salacious cockup that he will have to deal with, that is not of his doing.









						Canada’s defense chief tweets about ‘diversity, inclusion and culture change’ sharing photo of 8 white men
					

Admiral Art McDonald later responded to the online backlash that followed: "I hear your comments and I take them to heart."




					www.nydailynews.com
				





> Canada’s defense chief tweets about ‘diversity, inclusion and culture change’ sharing photo of 8 white men​By MURI ASSUNÇÃO  NEW YORK DAILY NEWS FEB 12, 2021 AT 3:18 PM
> 
> Canada’s recently appointed chief of the defense staff is being criticized for a tweet about diversity in the military with a photo featuring eight white men.
> 
> ...



The tweet in question was



Though it was a "shake your head moment" re diversity messaging, what struck me (the old fart traditionalist that I am) was the dress.  In that photo, and another probably from the same meeting, the most professionally dressed (for the real battles that they have to face in Ottawa) were the sailors.



_Oh look!  There's a woman in the second photo . . . or at least someone not suffering from male pattern baldness ._


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## dapaterson (13 Feb 2021)

First photo does include LGen Frances Allen, Canada's military representative to NATO, on the screen to the rear of the photo.

Second photo also includes MGen Paul, the highest ranking Aboriginal member of the Canadian Armed Forces.






						Brigadier-General (BGen.) Jocelyn Paul - Canada.ca
					

As the highest ranking Aboriginal member of the Canadian Armed Forces, Brigadier-General Jocelyn Paul has taken full advantage of the ‘limitless opportunities the Forces have to offer’ throughout his distinguished career.




					www.canada.ca


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## daftandbarmy (13 Feb 2021)

I worked for McDonald in 2017 on OP LENTUS for a couple of weeks. 

I thought he was excellent, all round, based on the fairly limited interaction I had with him. Very knowledgeable, polite, and respectful of all ranks, I'd probably put him in the category of one of the top 20% of the Senior Officers I've ever worked with.

I have no doubt that his OODA loop is spinning right now and will be surprised if something like this catches him out again.

(Oh, and just in case you're wondering, I'm safely retired now so no need for me to do any brown nosing!)

Engage the Enemy More Closely, Admiral!


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## Oldgateboatdriver (13 Feb 2021)

Nice to see that one element knows how to dress for an office environment.

Sorry! Just one of my hang-ups with HQ people.


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## PuckChaser (13 Feb 2021)

The PA folks we hired for social media have to literally be the worst. From CAFIntheUS putting things up that would get any other troop charged to this tone-deaf picture... Hopefully Adm Art cleans house...


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## Weinie (13 Feb 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> The PA folks we hired for social media have to literally be the worst. From CAFIntheUS putting things up that would get any other troop charged to this tone-deaf picture... Hopefully Adm Art cleans house...


Then he better start with his own staff. PA *advised against this.*


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## SupersonicMax (25 Feb 2021)

Well, this escalated quickly...

Canada’s chief of defence staff to step aside amid CFIS investigation: defence minister​By Hannah Jackson  Global News

In a statement released late Wednesday evening, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan said the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service is investigating McDonald.

It was not immediately clear what the investigation was in regards to.

(more at link)









						Canada’s chief of defence staff steps aside amid military police probe: defence minister - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Sajjan said he has appointed Lieutenant-General Wayne Eyre as Acting Chief of the Defence staff.




					globalnews.ca


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## MilEME09 (25 Feb 2021)

Beat me to it, this is growing into a huge scandle for the CAF


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## Jarnhamar (25 Feb 2021)

Releasing this at 11:30pm seems peculiar.


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## MilEME09 (25 Feb 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Releasing this at 11:30pm seems peculiar.


Or they got it out as fast as it was happening


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## Kilted (25 Feb 2021)

I was having a conversation the other day about Navy CDS' being replaced early.


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## The Bread Guy (25 Feb 2021)

And, just for the record, this from the Info-machine ...


> As I have stated, I take all allegations of misconduct seriously and continue to take strong action on any allegation of misconduct that is brought forward. No matter the rank, no matter the position.
> 
> The Canadian Forces National Investigation Service can confirm an investigation into Admiral Art McDonald.
> 
> ...


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## Gorgo (25 Feb 2021)

Oh, swell!  So since Comd CA is now A/CDS, does that mean the CDS will ever come back if he's proven innocent?


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## Weinie (25 Feb 2021)

OMFG. Glad I am not doing "issues management" anymore.


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## dapaterson (25 Feb 2021)

Gorgo said:


> Oh, swell!  So since Comd CA is now A/CDS, does that mean the CDS will ever come back if he's proven innocent?


That is the theory, yes.


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## OldSolduer (25 Feb 2021)

It’s a witch hunt.


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## dangerboy (25 Feb 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> It’s a witch hunt.


Or people have had enough and are coming forth with stuff that they have kept secret for years. Hard to say.


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## OldSolduer (25 Feb 2021)

dangerboy said:


> Or people have had enough and are coming forth with stuff that they have kept secret for years. Hard to say.





dangerboy said:


> Or people have had enough and are coming forth with stuff that they have kept secret for years. Hard to say.


You may be correct.


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## brihard (25 Feb 2021)

I just hope the Rouleau bypass is for continuity’s sake...


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## Weinie (25 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> I just hope the Rouleau bypass is for continuity’s sake...


At this juncture, everything is up in the air. The games, and the behind the scenes Machiavellian activities, have already begun.


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## Kat Stevens (25 Feb 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Well, this escalated quickly...
> 
> Canada’s chief of defence staff to step aside amid CFIS investigation: defence minister​By Hannah Jackson  Global News
> 
> ...


Wow, our own version of Game of Thrones right here, except it's CDS, not Hand of the King that's the most expendable character. Good thing I don't get attached to these characters as much.


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## SupersonicMax (25 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> I just hope the Rouleau bypass is for continuity’s sake...


Rouleau is pretty broken too.  Could that be the reason?


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## brihard (25 Feb 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Rouleau is pretty broken too.  Could that be the reason?


Broken? How do you mean?


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## SupersonicMax (25 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> Broken? How do you mean?


Doesn’t he have issues standing, sitting, walking long distances?


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## Monsoon (25 Feb 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Well, this escalated quickly...
> 
> Canada’s chief of defence staff to step aside amid CFIS investigation: defence minister​By Hannah Jackson  Global News
> 
> ...



The RCN gets to have a CDS for a fortnight once every three decades. Those are the rules.


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## Quirky (25 Feb 2021)

Good thing we are fully stocked in Flag Officers to take the reigns. 

Next!


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## daftandbarmy (25 Feb 2021)

Quirky said:


> Good thing we are fully stocked in Flag Officers to take the reigns.
> 
> Next!



Thursday's Toast! (on Thursday!)


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## Navy_Pete (25 Feb 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Thursday's Toast! (on Thursday!)


I guess we should have footnoted the Saturday toast with a caveat that it was a joke and not an SOP. Would that make Vance pusser?


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## brihard (25 Feb 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Doesn’t he have issues standing, sitting, walking long distances?


Oh, like physically. Well, given all his SOF years, frankly I'd assume so... I don't see that that would make a difference between VCDS/CDS though.


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## HiTechComms (25 Feb 2021)

Well no NCO was blamed yet.. So you have that going for you!


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## Kilted (25 Feb 2021)

hamiltongs said:


> The RCN gets to have a CDS for a fortnight once every three decades. Those are the rules.


They haven't been doing too well at VCDS recently either.


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## brihard (25 Feb 2021)

Rather than continuing the Vance thread... Looks like this is stemming from a separate, independent allegation of misconduct against McDonald specifically.
Canada's new top military commander steps aside amid sexual misconduct claim​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mcdonald-misconduct-allegation-1.5927517
		




> However, sources with knowledge of the investigation spoke to CBC News and say the allegation of misconduct dates back to 2010 and involves an incident aboard HMCS Montreal, which was — at the time — involved in the military's annual Arctic exercise known as Operation Nanook.
> 
> The allegation against McDonald, who was a naval captain at the time, involves a female junior officer and took place during a party where there was alcohol.


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## Haggis (25 Feb 2021)

Bring back the Codfather.  The precedent to "recycle" CDSs, even after they have reached CRA, has been set with deChastelain coming back to replace Anderson in 1994.


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## SupersonicMax (25 Feb 2021)

Put Carignan as CDS.  Change the face of the CAF and save what's left of our reputation.


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## Kilted (25 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> Oh, like physically. Well, given all his SOF years, frankly I'd assume so... I don't see that that would make a difference between VCDS/CDS though.


I think finding the GO/FO with the fewest skeletons in their closet is the priority now.


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## OldSolduer (25 Feb 2021)

Honestly I find this whole thing ridiculous. A good organization that's being denigrated again by a government that scorns it.


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## SupersonicMax (25 Feb 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Honestly I find this whole thing ridiculous. A good organization that's being denigrated again by a government that scorns it.


I think we did this to ourselves...  If NIS is involved, it is not a matter of an overheard comment.


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## brihard (25 Feb 2021)

Kilted said:


> I think finding the GO/FO with the fewest skeletons in their closet is the





Haggis said:


> Bring back the Codfather.  The precedent to "recycle" CDSs, even after they have reached CRA, has been set with deChastelain coming back to replace Anderson in 1994.


He’s already taken by the Premier of Ontario.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> He’s already taken by the Premier of Ontario.



That magic TLA: OIC, could deal with that


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## Haggis (25 Feb 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> That magic TLA: OIC, could deal with that


Much as I'd like to see him at the helm again (see what I did there?) he may not want to come back under this government.  It could be asking for more than he's willing to give right now.


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## Good2Golf (25 Feb 2021)

Haggis said:


> Much as I'd like to see him at the helm again (see what I did there?) he may not want to come back under this government.  It could be asking for more than he's willing to give right now.


And he might “experience things differently” than the current Government, as well...


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## LittleBlackDevil (25 Feb 2021)

Shortest tenure ever for a CDS?

I'm going to reserve judgement until there is more, but doesn't sound good. I know alcohol is generally involved in mess dinners, but when they say "party" it sounds like something a lot less formal and just asking for trouble especially as a captain.


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## Colin Parkinson (25 Feb 2021)

The solution= Ban alcohol and anything remotely looking like fun.


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## LittleBlackDevil (25 Feb 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The solution= Ban alcohol and anything remotely looking like fun.



I'm not suggesting people can't have fun or alcohol and that's why I latched not onto the allegation of alcohol, but the use of the word "party" which by the dictionary definition is simply a "social gathering" but I think has a connotation of something a little more raucous and "unofficial" versus something more formal and "above board" like a mess dinner. Maybe I am reading too much into it but it seems to give a certain flavour of -- if not criminal activity, questionable judgement. We'll see, maybe there's something maybe there's nothing to these allegations.


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## Good2Golf (25 Feb 2021)

LittleBlackDevil said:


> I know alcohol is generally involved in mess dinners, but when they say "party" it sounds like something a lot less formal and just asking for trouble especially as a captain.


You mean like where they dress up in fanciful themed costumes and blackface makeup and grope interact with young women?


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## LittleBlackDevil (25 Feb 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> You mean like where they dress up in fanciful themed costumes and blackface makeup and grope interact with young women?



Yeah, something like that, but without the refractor field of sufficiently left of centre political positions ...


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## OldSolduer (25 Feb 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I think we did this to ourselves...  If NIS is involved, it is not a matter of an overheard comment.


Chances are you’re right. Here’s a theory I’ll float out here.
Could it be a former member seeing a chance to get even? It’s not unheard of is it?


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## brihard (25 Feb 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Chances are you’re right. Here’s a theory I’ll float out here.
> Could it be a former member seeing a chance to get even? It’s not unheard of is it?



For this sort of thing they likely wouldn't proceed far into an investigation without a cooperative and identifiable victim.


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## OldSolduer (25 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> For this sort of thing they likely wouldn't proceed far into an investigation without a cooperative and identifiable victim.


Thank you. Your background certainly helps.


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## Takeniteasy (25 Feb 2021)

At OldSolduer:  Interesting how you use the words "former member" and "chance to get even," if it is a Veteran reporting this then maybe they are finally in a position to address the incident without fearing reprisals. Lets keep the military COC context here and understand who holds the power in all environments while serving.
For my own experience, I watch as a Veteran a former CO climb through the General ranks all the while knowing how they handled my coming forward regarding a formal complaint. Nothing like using your position to threaten reprisals if you dont leave it alone. But hey he has a nice smile and is generally a good leader...


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## FSTO (26 Feb 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> The solution= Ban alcohol and anything remotely looking like fun.


We're almost there already.


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## Kilted (26 Feb 2021)

FSTO said:


> We're almost there already.


I suppose it's not impossible to think that the government might decide one day to get rid of Messes all together.


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## MilEME09 (26 Feb 2021)

Kilted said:


> I suppose it's not impossible to think that the government might decide one day to get rid of Messes all together.


well its not like everything else had disappeared off bases, there was a time when you didnt have to go off base for some entertainment. Last time I was in borden, on a long weekend, with hundreds of troops who were not local on base, the messes, bowling alley, movie theater, and everything else on base was closed.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Feb 2021)

Maybe Lt Gen Chris Coates will be brought in as the new CDS. I haven't heard anything negative about him in the news yet.


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## CBH99 (27 Feb 2021)

Someone said it up thread... I'll repeat it with a slight tweak.

UNLESS IT IS YOUR SPOUSE, DO NOT DIP YOUR PEN IN THE COMPANY INK.  Especially if you are in a senior leadership position!  C'mon guys, FFS...


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## FSTO (27 Feb 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Maybe Lt Gen Chris Coates will be brought in as the new CDS. I haven't heard anything negative about him in the news yet.


From my spies, his posting to Italy has been held up.


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## ballz (27 Feb 2021)

This is pretty good... https://www.thebeaverton.com/2021/0...litary-now-under-command-of-local-girl-guide/



> *Unable to find a single officer not under investigation, Canadian military now under command of local Girl Guide*
> 
> OTTAWA – Following the revelation that defence chief Admiral Art McDonald has stepped down due to an investigation into a sexual misconduct allegation just weeks after defence chief Gen. Jonathan Vance stepped down due to an investigation into sexual misconduct allegations, the Liberal government has appointed 12-year-old Girl Guide Stephanie Merchant as the acting head of the Canadian military.



My favourite part... 





> “I did kinda lie about my grades, just a little,” Stephanie confessed. “I didn’t tell them I got a C in Social Studies last year. But the government hasn’t even called the school to check, so I think it’s okay.”


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## Kirkhill (27 Feb 2021)

A witch hunt or an Inquisition?   Witch hunts looked for people that weren't there and created them.  The Inquisition targeted everybody because none were without sin so everybody was guilty.


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## Kat Stevens (27 Feb 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> A witch hunt or an Inquisition?   Witch hunts looked for people that weren't there and created them.  The Inquisition targeted everybody because none were without sin so everybody was guilty.


Inquiwitchin it is, then!


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## Blackadder1916 (27 Feb 2021)

Kirkhill said:


> . . .   The Inquisition targeted everybody . . .



What did you expect!


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## OldSolduer (27 Feb 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> What did you expect!
> 
> View attachment 64618


Bugger!!!! nobody expects the Spanish Inquistion!!!!


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## ABSigs (28 Feb 2021)

FSTO said:


> From my spies, his posting to Italy has been held up.


https://www.theobserver.ca/news/nat...n-co-worker-but-dnd-says-no-rules-were-broken

From the news ,   not only held up but cancelled due his affair with a US Civilian while DComd NORAD.  Was appointed as Comd CJOC instead, but heard that he is leaving that post soon ??


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## FSTO (28 Feb 2021)

ABSigs said:


> https://www.theobserver.ca/news/nat...n-co-worker-but-dnd-says-no-rules-were-broken
> 
> From the news ,   not only held up but cancelled due his affair with a US Civilian while DComd NORAD.  Was appointed as Comd CJOC instead, but heard that he is leaving that post soon ??


COC at CJOC was on Friday. Rear Admiral Aucterlonie is now CJOC.


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## SeaKingTacco (28 Feb 2021)

FSTO said:


> COC at CJOC was on Friday. Rear Admiral Aucterlonie is now CJOC.


Whoa. You miss one day at work...


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## brihard (28 Feb 2021)

FSTO said:


> COC at CJOC was on Friday. Rear Admiral Aucterlonie is now CJOC.


Sorry- For those of us not still in, is this an abrupt replacement of a LGen who was commanding CJOC? What's happened to the outgoing?


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## SeaKingTacco (28 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> Sorry- For those of us not still in, is this an abrupt replacement of a LGen who was commanding CJOC? What's happened to the outgoing?


Apparently, yes. I am still trying to catch up, but it looks like Comd CJOC (LGen Coates) has been relieved and Comd MARPAC moved up. I am looking for news media confirmation, but don’t see any as of this minute, so I am unable to provide a source link.


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## brihard (28 Feb 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Apparently, yes. I am still trying to catch up, but it looks like Comd CJOC (LGen Coates) has been relieved and Comd MARPAC moved up. I am looking for news media confirmation, but don’t see any as of this minute, so I am unable to provide a source link.


So CAF is down a CDS and a three-leafs in a week?


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## GK .Dundas (28 Feb 2021)

It's a joke but it's really not that funny more of a omigawd . I am not sure if there's a facepalm emoji. If not then there should be.
Phone rings :
" NDHQ M/cpl. Duchamp acting NCOIC signal section and ....uhm apparently as of two minutes ago ...acting ...CDS.
how may I help you ? "


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## SeaKingTacco (28 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> So CAF is down a CDS and a three-leafs in a week?


Your guess is as good as mine, at this point.


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## PuckChaser (28 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> So CAF is down a CDS and a three-leafs in a week?


The real question is, has anyone outside of NDHQ noticed? The big green/blue/whateverNavycolour is machine just keeps trucking along, which says a lot about the impact of all these initiatives from the CDS office...


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## Weinie (28 Feb 2021)

FSTO said:


> COC at CJOC was on Friday. Rear Admiral Aucterlonie is now CJOC.


CoC was supposed to be held on Friday. Based on recent events, including the cancelled posting to Naples, LGen Coates is still Comd CJOC. Hang tight for the next GOFO msg (and then the one after that when displeased GOFO's vote with their feet)


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## brihard (28 Feb 2021)

Sounds like OUTCANs will be contingent on zipper discipline. I’m sure that will displease a few...


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## Navy_Pete (28 Feb 2021)

brihard said:


> Sounds like OUTCANs will be contingent on zipper discipline. I’m sure that will displease a few...


As in good or bad zipper discipline? I've noticed a trend for some OUTCANs where you aren't allowed to go if you are 'too valuable'.


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## MJP (28 Feb 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> I've noticed a trend for some OUTCANs where you aren't allowed to go if you are 'too valuable'.


That is the strategy for some of them, they want stability in rank as promotion usually means moving to next job.  A succession planned person is likely not the best option for OUTCAN unless it is a job fits into career stream.


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## Navy_Pete (28 Feb 2021)

MJP said:


> That is the strategy for some of them, they want stability in rank as promotion usually means moving to next job.  A succession planned person is likely not the best option for OUTCAN unless it is a job fits into career stream.


Yeah, I wasn't even thinking succession planned; just north of 'soup sandwich' material.

"Oh, you showed up to the OUTCAN interview with pants on.... NEXT!"


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## dimsum (28 Feb 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> As in good or bad zipper discipline? I've noticed a trend for some OUTCANs where you aren't allowed to go if you are 'too valuable'.


OUTCANs sometimes hurt promotion.  You're away from your peers and your normal job for 4 years, and PERs are written by people who probably have never met you.  It may be harder to get Immediates that way.


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## MJP (28 Feb 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> Yeah, I wasn't even thinking succession planned; just north of 'soup sandwich' material.
> 
> "Oh, you showed up to the OUTCAN interview with pants on.... NEXT!"


My limited observation is we pick really decently for NCOs (less some trades where there are just too many OUTCANs to tag every strong person) but less so for officers unless it is a key posn. 

That is an over generalization as we also pick people to bring back institutional knowledge that often help their career post return. 


dimsum said:


> OUTCANs sometimes hurt promotion.  You're away from your peers and your normal job for 4 years, and PERs are written by people who probably have never met you.  It may be harder to get Immediates that way.


I can imagine and especially true when you work outside the CAF...


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## Ostrozac (28 Feb 2021)

MJP said:


> A succession planned person is likely not the best option for OUTCAN unless it is a job fits into career stream.


That‘s one way to look at it. Another data point is that Admiral McDonald is the first CDS in almost 30 years that has never had an OUTCAN posting (the last previous one being Admiral Anderson in 1993). So there isn’t that much evidence that an OUTCAN posting is career limiting. But yes, not all OUTCAN positions are created equal. And they were probably more prestigious back in the CFE days in Germany.


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## FSTO (28 Feb 2021)

Weinie said:


> CoC was supposed to be held on Friday. Based on recent events, including the cancelled posting to Naples, LGen Coates is still Comd CJOC. Hang tight for the next GOFO msg (and then the one after that when displeased GOFO's vote with their feet)


From what I heard the impetus to CJOC moving was a retirement of the General at Naples.
Is the bench getting a little thin? Or are the dinosaurs getting hit with the #MeTooMeteor?


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## MilEME09 (28 Feb 2021)

FSTO said:


> From what I heard the impetus to CJOC moving was a retirement of the General at Naples.
> Is the bench getting a little thin? Or are the dinosaurs getting hit with the #MeTooMeteor?


Both


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## dangerboy (2 Mar 2021)

Can we split this into a new topic in radio chatter and leave this thread to just talk about the CDS and the troublesome situation that is going on currently?


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## OldSolduer (2 Mar 2021)

dangerboy said:


> Can we split this into a new topic in radio chatter and leave this thread to just talk about the CDS and the troublesome situation that is going on currently?


 I agree with dangerboy on this. We are down the rabbit hole again.


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## mariomike (2 Mar 2021)

dangerboy said:


> Can we split this into a new topic in radio chatter and leave this thread to just talk about the CDS and the troublesome situation that is going on currently?


[Split] Discussion: Who is a civilian?​








						[Split] Discussion: Who is a civilian?
					

This is pretty good... https://www.thebeaverton.com/2021/02/unable-to-find-a-single-officer-not-under-investigation-canadian-military-now-under-command-of-local-girl-guide/    My favourite part...  That’s funny.  But remember a civilian was once put in charge of the RCMP...




					www.milnet.ca
				



2 pages.


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## MilEME09 (7 Mar 2021)

Senior naval officer was threatened after reporting McDonald allegation: sources - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Adm. Art McDonald stepped aside as chief of defence staff late last month but sources tell Global News the senior naval officer who reported him is now facing threats.




					globalnews.ca
				




Oh boy keep the popcorn going


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Mar 2021)

Remedial Op Honour courses for all ranks above Major


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## suffolkowner (7 Mar 2021)

I wonder if it gets to the point where we need to go outside to manage the CAF? It's not like this is the only issue or that we didn't just burn through a lot of VCDS as well


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## daftandbarmy (7 Mar 2021)

suffolkowner said:


> I wonder if it gets to the point where we need to go outside to manage the CAF? It's not like this is the only issue or that we didn't just burn through a lot of VCDS as well



Based on reading between the lines of this statement by the new A/CDS, there will be alot of people 'going outside' the CAF when the next round of 'Mea Culpa' programs gets rammed home.

Will hair shirts be on issue or can you provide your own? 

‘Beyond troubling’ behaviour in army needs to be addressed, acting defence chief says​

Canada’s acting chief of defence staff says that some elements of the country’s military culture “need, must and will change” in his first public statement since his appointment.


The statement, which was released by Lieutenant-General Wayne Eyre on Twitter Saturday, comes as two of Canada’s former military chiefs face investigations over allegations — at least one of which includes claims of sexual misconduct.

“None of us should ever tolerate, or condone, behaviour or attitudes that threaten the wellbeing of our people. The road ahead will not be easy, but we will emerge a stronger, better, and more effective Force.”

Eyre’s statement marks what has been an unprecedented month for the Canadian Forces.

Experts have since told Global News that the two probes into the current and former defence chiefs mark an institutional “crisis” for the CAF — marking the need to confront questions over how Canada’s military could undergo cultural change.

“Cultural change is really hard and it does take a long time,” said Linna Tam-Seto, a postdoctoral fellow at the Centre for International and Defence Policy at Queen’s University, during a previous interview with Global News.

“It’s more than just addressing sexual misconduct. It’s essentially shifting the culture of this hyper-masculine culture that is based on power.”









						‘Beyond troubling’ behaviour in army needs to be addressed, acting defence chief says - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Lieutenant-General Wayne Eyre's statement comes as two former military chiefs face investigations over allegations, at least one of which includes claims of sexual misconduct.




					globalnews.ca


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## Kat Stevens (7 Mar 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Based on reading between the lines of this statement by the new A/CDS, there will be alot of people 'going outside' the CAF when the next round of 'Mea Culpa' programs gets rammed home.
> 
> Will hair shirts be on issue or can you provide your own?
> 
> ...


Just in the army, huh? All you fly guys and boat people are good to go, it seems.


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## daftandbarmy (7 Mar 2021)

Kat Stevens said:


> Just in the army, huh? All you fly guys and boat people are good to go, it seems.


Well, he did mention ‘masculinity’, so...


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2021)

In light of everything going on, finishing off that CDS letter with a "how about that pay raise right?" was a pretty big swing and a miss IMO.


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## OldSolduer (7 Mar 2021)

I don't fondly recall the post Somalia days. The stupid one day search for documents that related to Somalia. 1 CAD - or whatever it was called at that time took it extremely seriously while us crayon eaters laughed at the whole stupid idea.
The disbandment of the CAR was especially upsetting to a number of my peers who had served honorably in that Regiment. 

Changing culture - again. First -Stop consulting "experts" who have never served ONE DAY in the service of their nation. I'm sure the CAF knows what it has to do - but can it?


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## MilEME09 (7 Mar 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> I don't fondly recall the post Somalia days. The stupid one day search for documents that related to Somalia. 1 CAD - or whatever it was called at that time took it extremely seriously while us crayon eaters laughed at the whole stupid idea.
> The disbandment of the CAR was especially upsetting to a number of my peers who had served honorably in that Regiment.
> 
> Changing culture - again. First -Stop consulting "experts" who have never served ONE DAY in the service of their nation. I'm sure the CAF knows what it has to do - but can it?


Unfortunately house cleaning may be in order. If I was CDS, I'd order every one over the rank of major be revetted.


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## OldSolduer (7 Mar 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Unfortunately house cleaning may be in order. If I was CDS, I'd order every one over the rank of major be revetted.


I'm certain they all know who the "bad apples" are. Can the CAF cull the herd where it needs to?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Mar 2021)

Holy slippery slope Comrades. ..


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## PPCLI Guy (7 Mar 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Unfortunately house cleaning may be in order. If I was CDS, I'd order every one over the rank of major be revetted.


What does that even mean?  How would it manifest itself?  Who would do the "vetting"?

Let's be very careful here.  If you are saying that we can no longer trust anyone above the rank of Major (or perhaps above the age of 35) then we have major problems.  

Who is going to be in charge of this "house cleaning"?  Politicians?  Consultants?  Corporals?  Random Internet people?


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## Kat Stevens (7 Mar 2021)

Oooo! Oooo! PLEEEEAAASE let it be the corporals!


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## MilEME09 (7 Mar 2021)

PPCLI Guy said:


> What does that even mean?  How would it manifest itself?  Who would do the "vetting"?
> 
> Let's be very careful here.  If you are saying that we can no longer trust anyone above the rank of Major (or perhaps above the age of 35) then we have major problems.
> 
> Who is going to be in charge of this "house cleaning"?  Politicians?  Consultants?  Corporals?  Random Internet people?


All I am saying is that we have gone through 2 CDS's and the deputy NORAD commander. Some due diligence is in order to see of anyone else has anything that might come up from the past. 

As for who, authority should still rest with CDS and the VCDS to remove anyone. We still have policies and procedures, let's just get it right this time. If the allegations against Vance were known 3 years ago, or earlier they should of been investigated, full stop, no one should be above OP honor, even if that means an out side agency investigates.


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## SeaKingTacco (8 Mar 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Unfortunately house cleaning may be in order. If I was CDS, I'd order every one over the rank of major be revetted.


What fcuk is revetted?

Perhaps we should just line up all the officers against the wall and shoot them? Or would a short stay in the gulag be enough for you? That would sure fix things, huh?

How about we all grab some god damned perspective? The vast majority of folks serve their careers honourably- including GOFOs.

I do not make excuses for those who have made a mockery of their commissioning scroll (you know, the part of being about reposed of especial trust) and they deserve everything they have coming, if found guilty, but how about we not give into mob justice and group punishment?


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## FJAG (8 Mar 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> What fcuk is revetted?


Re-vetted - to be vetted again.

Revetted - to be faced with stone as in a revetment.


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## SeaKingTacco (8 Mar 2021)

FJAG said:


> Re-vetted - to be vetted again.
> 
> Revetted - to be faced with stone as in a revettment.


Ah. Got it.


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## daftandbarmy (8 Mar 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> What fcuk is revetted?
> 
> Perhaps we should just line up all the officers against the wall and shoot them? Or would a short stay in the gulag be enough for you? That would sure fix things, huh?
> 
> ...



But what if group punishments are part of the dysfunctional culture? Waiting for the irony to beak out


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## ModlrMike (8 Mar 2021)

IDK... there's a whole lot in that second article that doesn't make sense to me.


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## OldSolduer (8 Mar 2021)

I just read an article in the WFP. This situation is a mess.


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## blacktriangle (8 Mar 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Unfortunately house cleaning may be in order. If I was CDS, I'd order every one over the rank of major be revetted.


Yes, because no one between Cpl and Capt is ever in a leadership position... 🤣

As for vetting - if proper full-scope background investigations were done on every CAF member...forget it, I won't even go there (and WRT revetment, let's not go there either!)

I think the CAF and its members must also be cognizant of the "bad actors" out there that will seek to capitalize on this situation. No doubt, there's some leadership that hovers between toxic and criminal. That still doesn't mean that everything is exactly as it seems...


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## Weinie (8 Mar 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Unfortunately house cleaning may be in order. If I was CDS, I'd order every one over the rank of major be *revetted.*


Did you mean to say "brevetted" instead of revetted?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevet_(military)


In many of the world's military establishments, a *brevet* (/brəˈvɛt/ (

listen) or /ˈbrɛvɪt/ (

listen))[1] was a warrant giving a commissioned officer a higher rank title as a reward for gallantry or meritorious conduct but may not confer the authority, precedence, or pay of real rank.

BTW, brevetting has not been a thing for about a century.


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## coolintheshade (8 Mar 2021)

reveng said:


> As for vetting - if proper full-scope background investigations were done on every CAF member...forget it



Good point...it then becomes a case of how much skeletons does whoever have in their closet, and does it meet the current topic of disgruntlement.


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## Rifleman62 (8 Mar 2021)

Are retired members to be considered, or just serving?


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## hattrick72 (8 Mar 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Unfortunately house cleaning may be in order. If I was CDS, I'd order every one over the rank of major be revetted.


The pers file is there for a reason. Everyone that is accused of a crime should go through the applicable UDI/MP/CFNIS and the appropriate AR level CO/OCC/CMP etc.. The outcome of those processes should be followed and placed in the file like it is supposed to be. If nothing merits a charge or administrative measures than it doesn't go in. 

The minute we start letting our number one Cpl, Sgt, Capt etc. go (without investigation or hiding the AR process from the appropriate authority) for a lapse in judgment; is the minute this process fails and another person can escape through the cracks and cause a larger issue at a higher rank....

The mob justice shouldn't be about going into the past and investigating claims from 3 years ago that were never investigated. It should be about looking at what is in pers files and how those situations are viewed now, Vs then, then making a decision on that never going forward. We can also hold those to account that are in our slice of the pie for the future. 

Just my 2 cents


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## daftandbarmy (8 Mar 2021)

Rifleman62 said:


> Are retired members to be considered, or just serving?



Not sure what you mean exactly but retired members are not 'safe' from investigation/prosecution, of course, AFAIK.


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## Rifleman62 (8 Mar 2021)

If retired mbrs committed an offence they should be investigated.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Mar 2021)

You can't change culture with sternly worded letters, training or DLN courses.

The only way we'll change culture is through force. Getting rid of the abusers, showing would-be abusers there's actual consequences, and setting up a system to quickly address allegations.

There needs to be a reckoning for misconduct whether it was 3 years ago or 30.  We know lots of bad behavior does not get investigated for a number of reasons. Should a MWO or Col guilty of misconduct 15 or 20 years ago pay for it? Yes because they become the next CFCWO or CDS.

Doing it without it becoming a witch hunt is the hard part, but probably not as hard as being a victim and having the people supposed to protect you turn their back on you.

If we want to reset our culture we'll need to pause and take a knee. We'll quite probably be combat ineffective during that time and a while afterwards. We need to ask ourselves if it's worth it.


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## daftandbarmy (8 Mar 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> If we want to reset our culture we'll need to pause and take a knee. We'll quite probably be combat ineffective during that time and a while afterwards. We need to ask ourselves if it's worth it.



Funny thing.... the fastest, most effective culture shifts I've seen were propelled by the march to danger, doing our jobs, and not idle self-reflection....


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## Haggis (8 Mar 2021)

Rifleman62 said:


> Are retired members to be considered, or just serving?


For CDS?  Sure!  Have your resumé ready, just like Gen deChastelain did for his second go-around..


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## daftandbarmy (9 Mar 2021)

The plot thickens....

Senior naval officer was threatened after reporting McDonald allegation: sources​

A senior naval officer alerted the defence minister’s office to an allegation of sexual misconduct against Adm. Art McDonald in February but was redirected and told to report the concern elsewhere, according to a source with direct knowledge of the matter.

And sources tell Global News the officer has received anonymous telephone threats warning that his career is now in jeopardy since he took action.









						Senior naval officer was threatened after reporting McDonald allegation: sources - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Adm. Art McDonald stepped aside as chief of defence staff late last month but sources tell Global News the senior naval officer who reported him is now facing threats.




					globalnews.ca


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## Haggis (9 Mar 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The plot thickens....
> 
> Senior naval officer was threatened after reporting McDonald allegation: sources​


As unprofessional and nefarious as this is, it`s not unexpected, sadly.


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## ModlrMike (9 Mar 2021)

I see there's now a fundraising campaign on gofundme for the above member's legal fees. This continues to make less and less sense to me.


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## SeaKingTacco (9 Mar 2021)

ModlrMike said:


> I see there's now a fundraising campaign on gofundme for the above member's legal fees. This continues to make less and less sense to me.


I am genuinely curious why he would need legal advice. Because of the Parliamentary Committee? Or because he intends on suing someone?

I am genuinely confused, too.


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## Kilted (9 Mar 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I am genuinely curious why he would need legal advice. Because of the Parliamentary Committee? Or because he intends on suing someone?
> 
> I am genuinely confused, too.


Or be sued for defamation? Is he even allowed to start a gofunme for something like that? It kind of reminds me of that airman in Cold Lake who was busking with his helmet a few years ago.


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## brihard (9 Mar 2021)

It’s a weird move. An individual acting in good faith in the scope of their duties, where there is no conflict with interest with the crown, will generally be legally indemnified at public expense. A crown lawyer handles stuff for you. It’s usually in the context of civil claims.

It’s not clear to me what legal expenses he anticipates. It could be he expects to hire his own counsel to protect his interests. It could be he expects having to initiate civil litigation if he is in fact subject to retaliation.

He will need to tread very carefully in how he handles himself in this situation. If he is truthful and aboveboard he should have nothing to fear.

it would be very interesting indeed to know more about the alleged phone calls. Phone calls leave records. What he alleges could potentially constitute the sort of offense for which a production order for phone records could be sought. If what he alleges is true, this could be a big ugly stink for some time yet. If it’s not true, he may need that lawyer.

What a mess.


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