# Legal Status of ASP Batons



## Keltic (6 Nov 2004)

Does anyone have any personal experience with Legalities on these in Canada or on tour? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ???


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## Slim (6 Nov 2004)

Oh boy...Here it comes...

(prediction) the infantry guys will jump this first...Any takers?


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## NavyGrunt (6 Nov 2004)

Keltic said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any personal experience with Legalities on these in Canada or on tour?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You have no business with a collapsible baton. What do you want to know specifically? If I pull you over in Canada and you have one of these on you- you better have a good reason as to why you need it. 

And if you needed one on "tour" you would be issued one. 

I think you should fill out your profile so we know who we are talking to.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (6 Nov 2004)

Yes I do,  why?


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## Ex-Dragoon (6 Nov 2004)

Issued to Boarding Teams as well.


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## QORvanweert (6 Nov 2004)

outside of Law Enforcement usage, these extendo's are illegal... although you can buy them down in Kensington market....


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## QORvanweert (7 Nov 2004)

I went into 'Save More' today after our parade to buy him a belt, and lo and behold they are selling those things by the dozen... they don't look like they are really that painful though....


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## NavyGrunt (7 Nov 2004)

QORvanweert said:
			
		

> I went into 'Save More' today after our parade to buy him a belt, and lo and behold they are selling those things by the dozen... they don't look like they are really that painful though....



At "save more"?  Im sure they are of excellent quality. If It doesnt look painful its not a proper baton.


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## winchable (7 Nov 2004)

Been reading the thread and googling this baton,
What exactly is it?
What are the physics of it, what makes it effective?
It looks like a telescopic cane or...poking device to me.
Is it like a nightstick?


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## NavyGrunt (7 Nov 2004)

Its a defense tool used by various law enforcement and security agencies(and the NBP's-calm down EX ;D). They come in various sizes from 13 inches on upto well over 30inches....with 21 inch extended being the most common. The physics are its locked in place and using centrifugal force it extends when swung and using a "friction lock" sticks in place. You strike meaty places(big muscles) and can use them on muscle tie-in area's....like joints(this is only for pressure points- the point isn't to break or cause permanent damage- its to control and stun, in lieu of digital tip pressure). More often than not its on used on limbs(the meaty parts) as it will easily break ribs and a blow to the head could kill someone. Depending on where you take the course you can also be taught to use it for pressure points. Its big and metal and hurts. Using it without proper training and care and consideration could hurt somebody reallllly bad.

Yes its like a collapsible night stick. But the full sized nightsticks are more effective....these batons are more convenient. Of course that depends on who you ask.....

Modded for clarity.....however its still a little muddled.....I try  :-\


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## excoelis (7 Nov 2004)

> You strike places where muscles tie in....like joints etc.



Only if your a hired goon beating on a helpless little figure skater  ;D



> Depending on where you take the course you can also be taught to use it for pressure points.



When used as an intermediate weapon for striking, it is employed on large muscle masses or nerve motor points, in order to cause temporary motor dysfunction.  This will mitigate the risk of permanent injury while temporarily incapacitating an aggressor.  The touch pressure and quick penetration methods of employment can be used on pressure points in lieu of digital pressure, in order to achieve pain compliance.

The morale of the story is:

You may be able to buy one.  I believe it's illegal to carry anything that's sole purpose is that of a weapon.  If you haven't been officially trained and authorised to use it, you are subjecting yourself to serious legal repercussions.

I'm no expert, but I believe it would fall under aggravated assault or assault with a weapon, which are both indictable offenses.

Anyone in the law enforcement field care to clarify on the specifics or legality, so the troops don't inadvertently land themselves in jail?


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## pappy (7 Nov 2004)

almost had me going there for a second when you asked if "anyone had any experience" with these ASP's

They hurt very much in the hands of someone that knows how to use them....  I can atest to that, Ouch.... with a big O

They work well if YOU KNOW HOW TO USE THEM.  As with any weapon, you gatta know how to use it.

There legal here in Oregon, but not widely used.  But even that said like the one poster stated, you get pulled over with one and you've got some explaining to do.


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## pappy (7 Nov 2004)

excoelis said:
			
		

> ..... in order to cause temporary motor dysfunction.   ....



lol I guess that's "Canadian" for "rings your bell"

The JP's (Japanese Police) used them quite effectively againest drunken Marines on Okinawa.....  Once they "tap you llightly" with one, you gain lots of respect.  Not that they needed these ASP's as to be a JP you have to be a Black Belt at the minimum.  The ASP's just keep ttheir uniforms looking nicer, as one to two taps and a 200lbs man will be on his knees

They leave nasty  lil odd shaped bruises...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Nov 2004)

I will dig up the legalities tomorrow and post it tomorrow night.
What I can tell you from memory is that once you have been instructed by a certified instructor and are using it in the LAWFUL execution of your duties, [ie. what any prudent person would have done under the same circumstances]the company will send someone to defend any court procedings that could arise.

..._They leave nasty  lil odd shaped bruises_..........try poking yourself in the eye with the ball while returning it to the "loaded" position. :crybaby:


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## qjdb (8 Nov 2004)

excoelis said:
			
		

> it is employed on large muscle masses or nerve motor points, in order to cause temporary motor dysfunction



So, basically you create a big-@$$ charlie-horse?

Quentin


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## Fusaki (8 Nov 2004)

> So, basically you create a big-@$$ charlie-horse?



Yes.

Believe it or not, you can shut down the use of both legs by striking a muscle mass on only one of them. I've heard of cases where bruises are left on both arms, even though only the right arm was struck. It has to do the fact that if you look at a diagram of the human nervous system, it is mirrored on either side of your body. This was described to me during a lecture on Koppojutsu, the element of Ninjutsu that deals with bone breaking a nerve manipulation. I think this also explains why damage to one eye, often leads to blindess in both.


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## Keltic (8 Nov 2004)

Aaron:   I was wondering is there are *local* classes on the proper use Asps. I don't have one, but I'd like to know if this would be feasible for use by Asp qualified medics for Personal Defence (Non-lethal application) while on Patrols?


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## KevinB (9 Nov 2004)

???
I made a reply ealier I guess it did not get through prior the crash.

#1 They are legal
#2 Aaron: please re-read your post.   

The CF does not recognise less lethal training undertaken outside the auspices of the CF.

Less-Lethal Baton training typically divides the body into red and blue zone area - the red areas are where seriosuly bodily harm will occur and possibly death - Red Zone strikes are considered lethal force.
If you are not issued a Baton by the CF don't get one.   WOW imagine me being the one to tell people to listen to a CF directive.   Medics are issued pistol in theatre and believe me if you think need a baton - you should rethink you use of force continuim...

 Concealed Carry issues (civilian side) - This manner of carry of the baton either concealed on the person or concealed in a vehcile (i.e. under a seat) is illegal under the Criminal Code (I can get the subsectiosn if people want).   Open carry on person or vehcile is alright - however even open carry on a person can leave one open to charges for carrying a weapon to a public meeting or like charges.
   I went to get the section but it appears the Canadian Criminal Code is offline at the moment.

Cheers
Kevin


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## NavyGrunt (9 Nov 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> ???
> I made a reply earlier I guess it did not get through prior the crash.
> 
> #1 They are legal
> ...



Wow Kevin I've got a wall full of certificates that say that I know a fair bit about this. As for "red and blue zones" thats all new. I Couldnt tell you what the CF teaches for its baton training. I cant see why you think you know anything about this. I've been using and trained in them for years now. Feel free to attack any of my points and Ill back them up or retract. 

First of all-Id like to know which of my information I stated makes me an "idiot". I'll take you on pound for pound on defense tactics anytime.   

I have asp certs/courses through PPCT/PSS systems as well as H.O.S.T. and the Basic Officer Safety Course through the Alberta Solicitor General staff college. Speed Cuffing, hand cuffing, locks, pressure points(digital/and mechanical) take downs, knife defense(bare hand, and again mechanical)

I've made dozens of arrests and controlled countless individuals with them.  He asked and I gave a warning and explained the principle. However to a lesser degree than others here (for simplicities sake). 

*Modified for "Attitude"*


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## NavyGrunt (9 Nov 2004)

Aaron White said:
			
		

> Not illegal per sae. You have to have a legitimate use. EMT's can carry. As well as some security companies. You need to be trained and have a reason to carry.



Lets play the "clarification issue"game . It is not illegal for you to buy a baton. Go ahead. Buy 5 if you feel the need. Without a proper tarining course the moment you use it you are in a world of crap. The criminal code allows you to defend yourself with enough force to repel an attack. that is the same amount of force coming against you- you can use in return. Unless everyone is wandering around with batons you are not covered. Being as you are not trained you might as well be walking around with a a lead pipe on your belt. You WILL be crap on for using it. Lots of bouncers carry them. Lots of EMT's. Lots of security guards. My old fire chief carried one( he used it on several occasions), police, and corrections. I have friends who have them for no good reason. It is not a restricted weapon.   But if you hit one you will get crapped on. Just like if I hit you with a bowl. Its assault.

if you have a question about the theory or use CIVIE side  I can comment- I cant comment on the CF side though.

*Modified for "attitude"*


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## NavyGrunt (9 Nov 2004)

your concealed weapon section of the criminal code is CC sec 90(1)

and weapon is defined in CC sec 2 "Weapon is defined as ANY thing used , designed to be used or intended for use

a) in causing death or injury to any person,or
b) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person

*Modified to remove "attitude"*


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## KevinB (9 Nov 2004)

Aaron White said:
			
		

> You strike places where muscles tie in....like joints etc.



That comment.

   I have taken a few intro's to baton usage and other Less than Lethal trg and seen the control measures used by EPS and CPS (specifically Alberta, and both of them use the Blue/Red terminology) and other departments outside of Ab.   I don't claim to be an expert - but anyone who would comment on striking a suspect on a joint as opposed to a meatier area I would have to wonder about...

I agree with your point on the use and carry however.

I would agree to modify my statement *edit: and did...


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## winchable (9 Nov 2004)

Aw, and I thought I was going to need to lock this sucker for a second.
See folks, good things do happen.


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## NavyGrunt (9 Nov 2004)

KevinB said:
			
		

> That comment.
> 
> I have taken a few intro's to baton usage and other Less than Lethal trg and seen the control measures used by EPS and CPS (specifically Alberta, and both of them use the Blue/Red terminology) and other departments outside of Ab.   I don't claim to be an expert - but anyone who would comment on striking a suspect on a joint as opposed to a meatier area I would have to wonder about...
> 
> ...



Good enough. Yes "meaty" is good. Hmm....okay when going at upper body weapons(the arms) you dont strike. You use a sweeping motion followed by the "get back stop resisting"   ;D. The sweeping motion for the arms can go- forearm(meaty), elbow(inside arm), and bicep(meaty again). However more often than not you sweep into the middle(centre) which happens to be the elbow. Not to break it. But because you have a greater chance of connecting. But its a sweep not a strike. If you've taken a pressure points course you know that all the tie ins are pressure points. (there are others- thats not meant to be exhaustive) In hindsight I should have been more specific. But when using a baton for pressure points you most certainly do strike the tie in's. Not with the same gusto as the lower strikes.

On the lower limbs where you do strike- you only strike the meat. You dont strike the joint. Large muscle group. Same muscle you hit when doing knee stuns.

really? Edmonton and Calgary are using a red and blue model? Hmm....I shall look into that......


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## KevinB (9 Nov 2004)

When I got out in 97 to go back to school I was a comissionaire (stop laughing you guys) at a CPS district I had nothign better to do than read through their Use of Force guidlines.   When I got back in after 9/11 I kept up with a few buddies there and compared trg notes on some stuff.   I have a few buddies (ex Pats) in EPS and they confirmed the APS tactics (we got some odd instruction prior to G8 from the Base MP's on Batons and Pressure Point control measures.  Read RTFO and I went back to them and VPD ERT guys I had done some stuff with prior - they confirmed the MP's (who were not Less Lethal Instructors nor CCO Instrcutors) where the ones who where RTFO


I took the comment you originaly made to be a Tonya Harding (SP?) issue and apparently so did excoelis.

Cheers
Kevin


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## Ex-Dragoon (9 Nov 2004)

As has been discussed above we have been warned to stay away from areas such as the spine and skull duto possible legal ramifications.


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## Slim (9 Nov 2004)

For anyone who is PROPERLY trained in the use of the ASP or MANADNOCK Telescopic baton series of weapons, the body is broken up into three different colour groups;
-Green: these are areas that are "safe to strike" in that they are non-lethal areas if hit with the weapon. These include arms and legs, excluding the joints and ankles/feet/head/neck areas.
Orange: these are areas of possible permanent injury. They include all joints in the body, such as knees and elbows.
Red areas: these are potentially lethal areas if struck and include the face, head, neck etc.

There are several companies that provide the proper training in the use of the ASP and its cousins. They will also go to court to defend your method of training should it come to that.

Slim


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## NavyGrunt (9 Nov 2004)

Again with the color zones thing. I've never seen that any where- Slim who did you do your course through. My systems only had black for lethal force. I can see the benefit of dividing up the body but to this point I've never taken a course where they have done so.

EPS and CPS according to KevinB use Red and blue- my courses used black......where did you do your training Slim?


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## Slim (9 Nov 2004)

> where did you do your training Slim?



England


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## Cloud Cover (10 Nov 2004)

I've looked in on this thread a few times, don't know much about ASP's colour zones etc. but I can tell you for sure that the remarks about using the baton without lawful authority are dead on. That means following the use of force continuim for police and law enforcement related agencies, or face the consequences. As for a civilian in self defence, the use of force to defend property is frowned upon by the justice system and almost always results in civil liability, no matter the justification or jurisdiction. 

As far as using the baton to defend your "person", or to defend another, there must be an air of reality to that defence. In other words, you must run away if you can, and if unable to do so you must use only enough force to protect yourself from continuing harm, but go no further than that.

The definition of a weapon is a subjective test, there must be an demonstrated intention to use the object as a "weapon" for the purposes of the Criminal Code. What makes the baton different than a firearm is the fact a firearm is always a weapon for the purposes of the criminal code, whether there is an intention to use it or not. 

Unless the ASP baton is on the list of prohibited or restricted weapons or devices, mere possession of the ASP does not constitute a contravening act. What makes this weapon interesting is that it is a purpose built weapon, coupled with it's spring loaded, gravity or centrifugal characteristics. The weapon could easily be argued to fit in the category of prohibited weapon by anology to knives of the "switch blade" variety. A successful argument on that front could well lead to the curtailment of non-authorized possession of the weapon.

Even more important is the fact that carrying the ASP un-concealled in public without lawful excuse is a summary conviction offence, just like any other "weapon."     And, the restriction is not confined to carriage on the person .. if it is in your car, that is enough to satsfy the offence. Again, given the purpose of this device, it would be hard to argue lack of subjective intent. The code makes reference to "public meetings or on the way to attend public meetings" for this offence, however that has been broadened by the courts to mean virtually anywhere but private real property [a "dwelling"] or immediately on the way to private property. 

It seems to me the issue will turn on "lawful excuse", which means "authorized by law" which, at a minimum, suggests peace officer or military status directed by Order in Council or by appointment[*edit: appointment or business licence]. 

Hope this does not muddle things.   
Cheers.


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## Slim (10 Nov 2004)

If you try to cayy an ASP concealed the cops will almost certainly take a run at you for "carry of a concealed weapon!"

One of those things where you have to prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that you are not planning to hurt someone with it.

Slim


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## NavyGrunt (10 Nov 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> If you try to cayy an ASP concealed the cops will almost certainly take a run at you for "carry of a concealed weapon!"
> 
> One of those things where you have to prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that you are not planning to hurt someone with it.
> 
> Slim



The only problem with that- it has no other purpose. Unlike a knife which you can say "its for cutting seatbelts" in case of an accident, or its for opening letters- a baton has no other useful function beyond "pain compliance".....


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## Cloud Cover (10 Nov 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> One of those things where you have to prove BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that you are not planning to hurt someone with it.



The subjective intention in that particular offence is concealment ... there must be "carriage" and there must be an intent at "concealment." The intention of harm does not come into play unless the weapon is not concealed.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Nov 2004)

Quote,
Green: these are areas that are "safe to strike" in that they are non-lethal areas if hit with the weapon. These include arms and legs, excluding the joints and ankles/feet/head/neck areas.

From the book folks,
ASP TARGETS 6.07.02
There are three principal ASP targets on the body. All techniques are designed to deliver one or more strikes to the following:
1]  ELBOW[ centre mass of arm]
2] KNEE[ centre mass of the leg
3] ABDOMEN[ centre mass of the torso]

These three areas were selected for their physiological vunerability combined with their less lethal potential as a baton target.
Strikes to the knees and elbows effectivetly disable an assailents "delivery system"
Strikes to the abdomen generate fluid shock waves.
In addition, strikes to those areas create sensory "overload" in the assailents brain.


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## KevinB (10 Nov 2004)

Well it seems we know of at least 4 different ASP type training systems now  ;D


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny (11 Sep 2011)

I was talking to a guy taking a police foundations course the other day and he said that civilians can purchase ASP batons, but they just can't carry them. He even said that the local gun store sells them. This guy is a bit of a bonehead, so I took what he said with a grain of salt. I just don't see a weapon that can be easily concealed being legal for civilians, let alone the amount of damage an ASP can do. 

Is there any truth to what he said? I always thought that ASPs were prohibited weapons and were illegal for civilians to possess.


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## Bass ackwards (11 Sep 2011)

From the Canadian Legal Information Institute:
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/regu/sor-98-462/latest/sor-98-462.html

Former Prohibited Weapons Order, No. 7

13. The device commonly known as a “Kiyoga Baton” or “Steel Cobra” and any similar device consisting of a manually triggered telescoping spring-loaded steel whip terminated in a heavy calibre striking tip.


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## Pusser (12 Sep 2011)

At the American PX in Camp Butmir (Sarajevo, BiH), ASP Batons were readily available.  Thinking about buying one, I asked one of the Canadian MPs (a WO) what its status was in Canada and he was absolutely clear that it was a PROHIBITED weapon.


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## Thompson_JM (12 Sep 2011)

BadEnoughDude said:
			
		

> I was talking to a guy taking a police foundations course the other day and he said that civilians can purchase ASP batons, but they just can't carry them. He even said that the local gun store sells them. This guy is a bit of a bonehead, so I took what he said with a grain of salt. I just don't see a weapon that can be easily concealed being legal for civilians, let alone the amount of damage an ASP can do.
> 
> Is there any truth to what he said? I always thought that ASPs were prohibited weapons and were illegal for civilians to possess.



as previously stated, you can buy "Collapsible" ASP style batons at many gun and army surplus stores... Buying an actual ASP or Monadnock brand baton is much trickier as most stores that sell them here in the GTA such as R. Nicholls or MD Charlton will not sell one to you unless you are a Law Enforcement officer.

When I was younger dumb-ass I bought one of the knock-off batons from a surplus store... I have compared them to the ASP's my friends carry at work, and I can tell you that the knock-offs are utter crap... save your money

As to the legality issue, you can buy them... however you will walk into a *GIANT* world of Legal hurt if you try to carry one as a private citizen. 

“Kiyoga Baton” or “Steel Cobra” are a different style of Baton then the Collapsible ASP style. If I recall correctly they are the type that are Spring Loaded and do not require and kind of centrifugal force to extend.  

I will talk to my Cop and Lawyer friends and get back....


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny (12 Sep 2011)

I still strongly suspect that it's a prohibited weapon due to the sheer amount of force it can exert. Anyone familiar with the Use of Force Spectrum knows that an ASP can technically be used as a lethal force option in certain circumstances. I was told by both a local police Use of Force instructor and an Inspector that the ASP can easily kill someone if it strikes certain areas and inflicts incredible amounts of damage and that they're really a LOT more dangerous than they look. I figured if civvies could easily obtain them, you'd see more civilians with them in some capacity and definitely more criminals using them.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Sep 2011)

If that was the case your butter knife would be prohibited also, I *think* you will find that the issue is that is as no other practical purpose.


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## Kat Stevens (12 Sep 2011)

BadEnoughDude said:
			
		

> I still strongly suspect that it's a prohibited weapon due to the sheer amount of force it can exert. Anyone familiar with the Use of Force Spectrum knows that an ASP can technically be used as a lethal force option in certain circumstances. I was told by both a local police Use of Force instructor and an Inspector that the ASP can easily kill someone if it strikes certain areas and inflicts incredible amounts of damage and that they're really a LOT more dangerous than they look. I figured if civvies could easily obtain them, you'd see more civilians with them in some capacity and definitely more criminals using them.



So can a 2x4, a ball peen hammer, and a sledge hammer handle.  Guess I better put Peavey Mart on warning as a supplier of deadly weapons.  I have a slingshot and a pile of lead shrapnel balls, I could very likely kill you with it if I hit you in the right spot too.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (12 Sep 2011)

...and





			
				BadEnoughDude said:
			
		

> Anyone familiar with the Use of Force Spectrum knows that an ASP can technically be used as a lethal force option in certain circumstances.



I am very familiar with that spectrum and that is 100% false, it is a "less than lethal" option only.
Which "anyone" should know does NOT mean that it won't kill................


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny (13 Sep 2011)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...and
> I am very familiar with that spectrum and that is 100% false, it is a "less than lethal" option only.
> Which "anyone" should know does NOT mean that it won't kill................



I was given the example of it being a lethal force option in a situation such as the suspect is on top of someone on the ground and is going to stab them (or something similarly potentially lethal) and the officer cannot use his sidearm or deploy a Taser because it may hit the victim, and as such, has to bean the suspect on the head with an ASP. 

I'm dead serious in this example given. I think it'd make a lot more sense just to nail the suspect in the body, but that was the example given. I recall it being a during a Criminology class where I had managed to bring in some guest speakers from the local police service and someone asked a bunch of questions about use of force (naturally in a way implying that all force is excessive force....). 

I should have rephrased my original post to specifically note that on the Spectrum an ASP is a less-than-lethal force option.





			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> So can a 2x4, a ball peen hammer, and a sledge hammer handle.  Guess I better put Peavey Mart on warning as a supplier of deadly weapons.  I have a slingshot and a pile of lead shrapnel balls, I could very likely kill you with it if I hit you in the right spot too.



I really dropped the ball with my "potentially inflicting lethal damage" post . Heck, a sock full of rolled pennies can be lethal. I guess that means we should outlaw pennies and socks. 

Sorry for any frustration that I may have caused you guys and thank you for sorting me out with my question. I think I need to think more when I make some of these posts  !


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny (13 Sep 2011)

OK, for the sake of sorting out what I think I know about the Spectrum, in what circumstances does the ASP become the highest level of less-than-lethal force? Has the Taser pretty much ousted it as the maximum level of less-than-lethal force?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (13 Sep 2011)

BadEnoughDude said:
			
		

> I was given the example of it being a lethal force option in a situation such as the suspect is on top of someone on the ground and is going to stab them (or something similarly potentially lethal) and the officer cannot use his sidearm or deploy a Taser because it may hit the victim, and as such, has to bean the suspect on the head with an ASP.
> 
> I'm dead serious in this example given. I think it'd make a lot more sense just to nail the suspect in the body, but that was the example given. I recall it being a during a Criminology class where I had managed to bring in some guest speakers from the local police service and someone asked a bunch of questions about use of force (naturally in a way implying that all force is excessive force....).



The head would never be targeted, which is not to say the head might end up being hit, but it would never be the initial target as the 40/40/10/10 rule would go right out the window.
[there's some research for you]


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## OldSolduer (13 Sep 2011)

Slim said:
			
		

> For anyone who is PROPERLY trained in the use of the ASP or MANADNOCK Telescopic baton series of weapons, the body is broken up into three different colour groups;
> -Green: these are areas that are "safe to strike" in that they are non-lethal areas if hit with the weapon. These include arms and legs, excluding the joints and ankles/feet/head/neck areas.
> Orange: these are areas of possible permanent injury. They include all joints in the body, such as knees and elbows.
> Red areas: these are potentially lethal areas if struck and include the face, head, neck etc.
> ...



I took my training in Manitoba, as a Correctional Officer (which I still am despite the Class B). We were taught similarly. Our target was the the thigh. Whack a bad guy on the thigh and he'll drop, or at least that's the theory.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (13 Sep 2011)

Well here we target the joints......remember the bearing of "unintended consequences" is the direct result of an offender's actions or lack thereof.

I don't see how the thigh in any way stops a weapon delivery system, very puzzling to me.


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## Pusser (13 Sep 2011)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I don't see how the thigh in any way stops a weapon delivery system, very puzzling to me.


]

Having done some ASP baton training, I would think that if someone were to whack you on the thigh, it's going to make you stop and think - or at least spill your coffee.


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## OldSolduer (13 Sep 2011)

Pusser said:
			
		

> ]
> 
> Having done some ASP baton training, I would think that if someone were to whack you on the thigh, it's going to make you stop and think - or at least spill your coffee.



Strike the thigh hard enough and an ordinary person will drop...fast. Think of how much a knee to the thigh hurts, then imagine getting hit with a steel rod being swung hard and quick by someone who knows what they're doing.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (13 Sep 2011)

Of that I have no doubt but I have never seen or heard of the thigh as a target, [and during the last 15 years our "system" has changed a few times] my GUESS would be that all it would take is some rotation and you have just nailed someone in the stones,......very hard to defend in court.


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## Bass ackwards (13 Sep 2011)

At the risk of straying from my rather narrow lanes, I do recall reading (I think it was in the book _Blackhawk Down_ by Mark Bowden) about the technique of delivering a good hard kick to the thigh -which was supposed to render a person unconscious due to the shock to the femoral artery.
Maybe one of our medical types could expand on the feasibility of that. 

I've personally never tried it -or had it tried on me.
YMMV.


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## Container (13 Sep 2011)

Batons are legal for anyone to buy in Canada. You just aren't allowed to strut around with one concealed. THere are several states where they are illegal to possess. 

If someone is on the ground about to be stabbed by someone on top of them you should be responding with a higher level of force than a maybe/might be baton strike to the head. Further more the taser doesnt go through the offender and strike the victim so there is no concern that you'll hit the victim. The baton isnt a lethal force option- sure you can kill somebody with it but thats doesnt make it a good choice.

The taser has not replaced the baton just like OC spray didnt. Its another tool that depending on the situation will be used. I hit a guy in his upper thigh once with my baton and his skin burst open and fell over immediately- it appeared to work just fine. Ive also got a guyin the ribs and in the arms. All reasonably effective. But typically its an upper body thing- why would you lean over  like that and put yourself off balance for that?

At any rate- should you need to know these things you'll be taught them.


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## ballz (13 Sep 2011)

I'm not a medical professional... but I am a kickboxer.

I have seen (and executed) a good kick (with the shin) just above the knee drop a few people, and even stop opponents altogether (TKO via leg kicks is not that uncommon). I have also been kicked in the same manner a few times and was unable to walk properly for two days. In muay thai, the thigh is a major target for a reason. It feels like Barry Bonds used a baseball bat to give you a charlie horse from your worst nightmares.

That said, I googled that femoral artery, and its (they?) pretty deep inside your thigh next to your femur. I can't see a leg kick doing much to affect it. Also, if it were possible to render someone unconscious with a leg kick, I'd be Buakaw Por Pramuk would have done it already.


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## OldSolduer (13 Sep 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> I'm not a medical professional... but I am a kickboxer.
> 
> I have seen (and executed) a good kick (with the shin) just above the knee drop a few people, and even stop opponents altogether (TKO via leg kicks is not that uncommon). I have also been kicked in the same manner a few times and was unable to walk properly for two days. In muay thai, the thigh is a major target for a reason. It feels like Barry Bonds used a baseball bat to give you a charlie horse from your worst nightmares.
> 
> That said, I googled that femoral artery, and its (they?) pretty deep inside your thigh next to your femur. I can't see a leg kick doing much to affect it. Also, if it were possible to render someone unconscious with a leg kick, I'd be Buakaw Por Pramuk would have done it already.



Good analogy, I took kickboxing for a bit and I hated having to hold the pads so 6'4", 240 pound Kevin could practice thigh kicks.  If one is hit on the outer thigh, the reasoing is that the central nervous system is overwhelmed with the sheer pain and the subject will drop.
I'm not sure what the effect is on a person who's high on angel dust or crystal meth. Anyone know?


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## Container (13 Sep 2011)

Yeah it doesnt work. Thats where 8 cops in a pig pile works....or in the places im from a prolonged fight with 2 cops until the high guy collapses from exhaustion.

I had an interesting call where I was driving the car behind an ambulance with the bad guy in it to the hospital. My partner told me that the guy was losing it and got free in the back. Broke his handcuffs etc. The whole ambulance started shifting and we pulled into the parking lot when two emts burst out of the bus followed by my partner and the the bad guy. 6 cops repeatedly hitting him with batons, and other things, did nothing we just kept at him until we had him on his back and the 6 of us, and two emts, were on top of him. Eventually he kinda gave up for a minute and cuffed him to the stretcher, and then put restraints on the elbows, ankles and knees to immobilize him.

He screamed and spat all night. But to answer your question about thigh strikes- nothing worked. He was a good candidate to die right there on the bottom of that pig pile but lucky for us we were in the hospital ambulance bay.

Oh drugs. So much fun!


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## mariomike (14 Sep 2011)

Container said:
			
		

> 6 cops repeatedly hitting him with batons, and other things, did nothing we just kept at him until we had him on his back and the 6 of us, and two emts, were on top of him. Eventually he kinda gave up for a minute and cuffed him to the stretcher, and then put restraints on the elbows, ankles and knees to immobilize him.



I see you transported him on his back. That's how they do it now. We are no longer permited to transport patients in a prone position with their hands tied behind their back, as per the Coroner's Office.


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## DirtyDog (14 Sep 2011)

I've seen real ASPs at several stores... seems easy enough to buy.

ASP and Baton training is part of the CQCI course.


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## Container (14 Sep 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I see you transported him on his back. That's how they do it now. We are no longer permited to transport patients in a prone position with their hands tied behind their back, as per the Coroner's Office.


Ive never seen it done prone. Im surprised it was ever done given what we know about positional asphyxiation.


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## mariomike (14 Sep 2011)

Container said:
			
		

> Ive never seen it done prone. Im surprised it was ever done given what we know about positional asphyxiation.



We didn't know about positional asphyxiation back then. The primary concern was that they not open the doors, and play in traffic. Patients are no longer restrained to a stretcher in a prone position. "The patient should be restrained in a sitting position whenever possible." I think that became the S.O.P. around 1995.


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## Angry56789 (29 Sep 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I see you transported him on his back. That's how they do it now. We are no longer permited to transport patients in a prone position with their hands tied behind their back, as per the Coroner's Office.



Positional asphyxiation?


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## Container (30 Sep 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I see you transported him on his back. That's how they do it now. We are no longer permited to transport patients in a prone position with their hands tied behind their back, as per the Coroner's Office.





			
				Container said:
			
		

> Ive never seen it done prone. Im surprised it was ever done given what we know about *positional asphyxiation.*





			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> We didn't know about *positional asphyxiation * back then.





			
				Angry56789 said:
			
		

> Positional asphyxiation?



 :facepalm:


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