# Canadian Forces dentists' productivity questioned



## DAA (20 Mar 2014)

So I showed up for my dental appt, unlike most but that's another issue.  I thought something was rather strange when I saw the mop and bucket in the exam room and then the rather large yellow book/file thing on the instrument table.  Didn't have my glasses on, so just figured it was my Dental File.  Anyhow, ended up getting a tooth pulled, so that's one less that I have to brush daily.

But now after seeing this story, I'm thinking that yellow thing, was a book on "Tooth Extraction for Dummies" and that really wasn't the Dentist that treated me!

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Canada/ID/2443334888/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canadian-forces-dentists-productivity-questioned-1.2579134


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## Armymedic (20 Mar 2014)

Bull sh!t article written with distorted facts and bull sh!t being spewed by talking heads.

"I would say anybody should be able to produce $200,000 worth of dentistry," said Cuff.

The majority of work by those dentists and dental techs are DAGs and annual inspections, preparing soldiers for deployment. Hygienists spend 45 mins with a max of 8 patients a day for cleanings. Again not expensive.

But the underlying issue is you can not compare a for profit, fee for service system with a occupational health and problem prevention system of care.

Unless you are the CBC and looking for a scandal to make up.


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## kratz (20 Mar 2014)

I read the same news report and held fire until I heard some other comments.

During my PRes career, who has been attach-posted and/or posted, while on class B or C, attempting to get dental service is like pulling teeth...no pun. As soon as reception heard we were PRes, the "song and dance" started. Heck, if you had experience with the tune, you arrived with everything in order from last time, but 'something' had always changed to deny service for awhile longer. Until you could either provide the new standard or your contract ended.


The best CF dentist I ever met had worked with the Swiss Air team in Shearwater. When he was posted to Gagetown, he insisted his unit deployed to outlying units the base supported and provide the dental service vice contracting it out to local civilian dentists. I was impressed and have not been aware of  that being repeated.

[/end rant]


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## MJP (20 Mar 2014)

Rider Pride said:
			
		

> Bull sh!t article written with distorted facts and bull sh!t being spewed by talking heads.



Agreed.  Military pers will never have great productivity compared to their civilian counterparts for a variety of service related reasons.  Crap article comparing apples to oranges.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Mar 2014)

One of the best appointments I ever had was in the back of a deuce and a half workshop while on Reforger. Had his whole office in there.


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## Tibbson (20 Mar 2014)

One can't help but wonder who is next.  

- Image Techs who only took 40% less portraits then the average commercial photographer.
- Cooks that made 24% less meals then the average Montanas or Hooters.
- Supply Techs who spent less time fitting boots and dress shoes then Al Bundy.


God, lets hope they never look at CF Firefighters.  Thankfully we don't have that many fires on base from year to year but CBC will never care enough to factor in all of the invaluable fire prevention and inspection work they do.


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## Tibbson (20 Mar 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> One of the best appointments I ever had was in the back of a deuce and a half workshop while on Reforger. Had his whole office in there.



I had my root canal in the same situation (MLVW dental workshop) during the Quebec ice storm.  Did it all in the one sitting and never had any need for a follow on visit or for more treatment.  Like you, it was the best appointment I've ever had and the treatment was second to none.


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## HCA123 (20 Mar 2014)

How about the fact we want our officers - no matter their trade - to have skills to be leaders in the CAF and we ask them to do roles that maybe are considered 'out of their trades'. Its all in the name of a strong, knowledgeable organization and for the better of the CAF. Perhaps if we allowed our Dentists to be civilians who wear a uniform, they could see more patients, but that certainly wouldn't be good for the organization as a whole. Perhaps we could move to a having strictly civilian dentists? That certainly work for deployment (operational or the field) - and whether you are aware or not, dental can be a pretty important piece to deployments. We've had (and continue to have) dentists fill some key roles within the Health Services and they have done a hell of a job and its important to include everyone within Health Services in its leadership. It's also important for the junior members of the dental corps to have leaders who have walked in their shoes - so keeping dentists seeing patients while being led by administrators wouldn't help the situation. 

Would it shock you to hear that many pilots in the CAF don't get to fly a lot when they get promoted and/or move into staff jobs? Haven't we spent a million or 2 in training them? Don't they get specialty pay? Maybe we can explain to the CDS that he should be flying instead of leading our military? No - we ensure that in addition to someone's specific trade, they have the ability to be an officer and try and place the right person in the right job. Maybe CBC will study that next?


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## Transporter (20 Mar 2014)

How does a CBC reporter dream up the thought of submitting an Access to Information Request to DND requesting info on - of all topics - CF Dentist productivity? They don't. This story was very unprofessionally orchestrated by one, or more, disgruntled former CF dentists with an axe to grind, or personal vendetta, IMHO. Hack job "journalism".


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## dimsum (21 Mar 2014)

HCA123 said:
			
		

> No - we ensure that in addition to someone's specific trade, they have the ability to be an officer and try and place the right person in the right job. Maybe CBC will study that next?



Shhhh....don't give them any ideas!


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## OldSolduer (21 Mar 2014)

Someone in the chain, a higher up maybe, needs to spank CBC on this one, publicly by presenting facts and the why we do things the way we do.

Frig, we have been taught numerous times fight innuendo and rumour with facts, yet we seem to forget this when it comes to the media.


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## The Bread Guy (21 Mar 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Someone in the chain, a higher up maybe, needs to spank CBC on this one, publicly by presenting facts and the why we do things the way we do.


Dare to dream - I'll be surprised to see even a letter to the editor from a senior officer (certainly NOT the Minister).


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## pbi (21 Mar 2014)

Transporter said:
			
		

> How does a CBC reporter dream up the thought of submitting an Access to Information Request to DND requesting info on - of all topics - CF Dentist productivity? They don't. This story was very unprofessionally orchestrated by one, or more, disgruntled former CF dentists with an axe to grind, or personal vendetta, IMHO. Hack job "journalism".



Bingo.

What reporter would even dream of this as a subject?

Meaningless, and pointless. I'm usually a CBC supporter, but they should be ashamed of this.


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## The Bread Guy (21 Mar 2014)

pbi said:
			
		

> What reporter would even dream of this as a subject?


Something I'm reading in a follow-up story points a bit of a finger ....


> .... Murray Cuff, a periodontist who retired from the military in 2010, wrote a report raising concerns about the sustainability of the dental corps before he left. He urged the Canadian Forces Health Services to review the role of advanced general dentists (AGD).
> 
> “Overstatement of the qualifications of the AGD to the degree that they receive a premium pay is fraught with both legal and moral difficulties,” Cuff wrote. “Current support by the [Canadian Forces] of a non-credible ‘specialty’ is a misrepresentation and, to some, may appear to constitute a fraud perpetrated on members of the CF.” ....


There's also this subtle, but interesting wording change between the stories - in the first one, we see:


> A CBC News investigation has revealed a number of highly-paid dentists in the Canadian Forces have been performing little or no dentistry, according to documents obtained through the Access to Information Act ....


In the second story, we see this:


> .... The military has 19 advanced general dentists, according to 2013 documents obtained by CBC News ....


So, was it the same batch of reports for both stories, or was the second story's backing documentation obtained in a different way than the first story's?

Commenting is closed, so I guess it's too late to ask the question or to ask why the documents haven't been shared with the public since they WERE obtained through ATIP.


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## Armymedic (22 Mar 2014)

A third article:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/canadian-forces-dental-unit-understaffed-stressed-report-1.2582688


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## Jarnhamar (23 Mar 2014)

I've had amazing service from CF dentists.  

In spring 2006 in Meaford I had dentist (Asian Captain if he's reading  ) put his leave (and vacation) on hold for a couple hours on a Friday afternoon.  I was in for a root canal and he noticed a very shitty job a civilian dentist had did previously on a half-assed crown so worked late to prep me for a new one in a couple weeks.  

Try asking a civilian dentist to work late on a Friday afternoon when they're about to leave for a week vacation where they won't get paid extra for it.


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## a_majoor (23 Mar 2014)

Like everything else, it is impossible to generalize dental service in the CF. I have been in since the Erth cooled, and had both good and bad service. My wife complained about deteriorating dental work in her final few years in the CF but was "poo-poo, there's nothing wrong/we don't see a need to do anything", now I am looking at an estimated bill of $6000 for redoing fillings, pulling essentially destroyed teeth and getting inserts or bridges to replace them. It's practically reconstructive surgury, but because she was on Class B, the CF dentists essentially put everything off until she was released.

Of course it is stories like that which attract attention and you remember, not the good dentists (clerks, supply techs, MSE Ops etc.) who do their jobs well. So BZ to the good ones out there.


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