# Bundeswehr reform?



## MarkOttawa (14 Jun 2010)

From _Spiegel Onine_:

Interview with German Defense Minister
Army's Composition 'Still Reflects Spirit of Cold War (usual copyright disclaimer)
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,700511,00.html



> In a SPIEGEL interview, German Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, 38, discusses his controversial proposal to end mandatory conscription, the future of Germany's army and the government's ongoing headaches with the arms industry.
> 
> SPIEGEL: Minister Guttenberg, how will the German Armed Forces, the Bundeswehr, look in 10 years?
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## 57Chevy (15 Jun 2010)

Guttenberg ?
Oh !  you mean:
Karl Theodor Maria Nikolaus Johann Jacob Philipp Franz Joseph Sylvester Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg , known as Karl-Theodor Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg or simply Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg.

Ya


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## Blackadder1916 (29 Jun 2010)

The following article, also from Der Speigel, expands a little on the controversy of Herr Guttenberg's suggestion that compulsory military service be eliminated in Germany.  It may also be agrument against the rare odd sort (who occasionally pops up on these means) proposing conscription as a means of connecting Canada's population to its military.

Killing Time - For Conscripts, German Military Service is Battle against Boredom
SPEIGEL ONLINE  06/24/2010 03:57 PM


> By Michael Fröhlingsdorf, Sven Röbel and Christoph Scheuermann
> 
> Every year, tens of thousands of young German men are called up to do compulsory military service. But they are just a burden to the Bundeswehr, which has no need for half-trained conscripts. The recruits spend much of their service finding ways to defeat their biggest enemy: boredom.
> 
> ...


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## tomahawk6 (29 Jun 2010)

Anymore when I see the word reform I think budget cuts.


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## MarkOttawa (9 Aug 2010)

Really big reform, er, cuts (usual copyright disclaimer):

In Retreat
German Military Reform Could Halve Ground Forces
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,710853,00.html#ref=nlint



> ...
> Germany's ground forces would be almost halved under a reform plan favored by Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, SPIEGEL has learned.
> 
> An internal paper suggests cutting the army from 95,000 soldiers to 54,558. The number of battle tanks would also be reduced by almost half. The *strength of the infantry would remain almost unchanged at around 10,000 troops* [emphasis added, that's all?!?].
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## George Wallace (9 Aug 2010)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

*
German Military Reform Could Halve Ground Forces
*

08/09/2010
SPIEGEL ONLINE 


LINK 

*German Defense Minister Guttenberg favors a plan to reform the army by halving the number of ground troops and battle tanks, SPIEGEL has learned. His ministry is due to present a reform plan in autumn in a bid to cut costs and boost the army's effectiveness.*

Germany's ground forces would be almost halved under a reform plan favored by Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, SPIEGEL has learned. 


An internal paper suggests cutting the army from 95,000 soldiers to 54,558. The number of battle tanks would also be reduced by almost half. The strength of the infantry would remain almost unchanged at around 10,000 troops.

Critics say the reform plan won't improve the situation of German infantry soldiers on foreign missions, who are being worn down by the high frequency of missions and insufficient rest and recuperation time. Germany is currently the third-biggest international troop provider in Afghanistan with more than 4,000 soldiers stationed there.

The government decided in June to radically downsize the German army as part of its austerity program. The Defense Ministry is currently reviewing a number of different reform plans aimed at modernizing the army and improving its ability to conduct military missions abroad. The ministry is expected to submit its proposal in the autumn.

The reforms have led to a debate about whether Germany should end conscription. The pro-business Free Democratic Party, the junior partner to Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives in the center-right coalition government, is calling for conscription to be abolished.

But the conservative Christian Democrats (CDU) and the Christian Social Union (CSU) fear a grassroots rebellion in their parties, where many see conscription as a valuable tool to anchor the army in society. 

_SPIEGEL Staff_


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## George Wallace (9 Aug 2010)

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
Killing Time
*
For Conscripts, German Military Service is Battle against Boredom
*
By Michael Fröhlingsdorf, Sven Röbel and Christoph Scheuermann
06/24/2010
SPIEGEL ONLINE 


LINK 

*Every year, tens of thousands of young German men are called up to do compulsory military service. But they are just a burden to the Bundeswehr, which has no need for half-trained conscripts. The recruits spend much of their service finding ways to defeat their biggest enemy: boredom.*

David (not his real name) had been looking forward to serving in the German military, the Bundeswehr. He had even thought about signing up as a regular soldier after completing his compulsory military service. 


It was on a day in March when David was forced to realize that the military did not, however, share his enthusiasm. He was standing with other recent conscripts in the barrack yard of a logistics battalion in Bavaria. The three dozen young men, most of them 18 years old, were a reasonably motivated group. But the trainers looked discouraged when they saw David and his fellow recruits standing in the yard. "There are so many of them again," one of the superior officers said under his breath. What on earth were they going to do with the young men?

The question of what should be done with them is currently the subject of heated debate in Berlin. If Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg has his way, the draft will soon be eliminated. Though a vocal supporter of compulsory military service until recently, Guttenberg, who belongs to the conservative Christian Social Union (CSU), the Bavarian sister party to Angela Merkel's Christian Democratic Union, has changed his position. Now Guttenberg, who holds the rank of corporal in the reserves, told SPIEGEL in an interview that "in practice (military service) will be gone in 10 years."

With this statement, Guttenberg antagonized members of his own party, especially Volker Kauder, the floor leader of the conservatives' parliamentary group. Kauder says that compulsory military service is a core concern of his party, the CDU, and that it is an "instrument for linking society with the Bundeswehr." CSU leader Horst Seehofer, who characterizes his party as "a party of the Bundeswehr," says: "We say yes to compulsory military service." Chancellor Angela Merkel, who considers compulsory military service a "success story," reined in the defense minister, because she believes that a large proportion of her voters support military service.

*Outdated * 

These are the old, familiar rituals once again. Compulsory military service has always been one of the great taboos of German politics. Until the 1980s, hundreds of thousands of men were still needed in case a massive army had to be quickly mobilized to face off against the forces of the Warsaw Pact. But with the implosion of the Eastern Bloc and the end of the Cold War, conscription has become outdated.

For Germany, a country surrounded by friendly neighbors, national defense is hardly a concern anymore. Bundeswehr soldiers are now fighting in Afghanistan or overseeing a weapons embargo off the coast of Lebanon as part of the United Nations' UNIFIL force. The army's young conscripts are of no use to anyone. Poorly trained and neglected by the government, they spend much of their military service killing time.

But now there is some hope that things could change, because the government has to tighten its belt. Without the funds to support it, the draft will probably soon cease to exist. Officials at the Defense Ministry have calculated that the Bundeswehr would cost the government almost €500 million ($610 million) less per year if military service were abolished.

Currently, compulsory military service lasts nine months, which consists of three months of basic training and six months spent at a barracks somewhere in Germany. Six months at a barracks doesn't necessarily seem like a long time, but it can feel a lot longer for people who don't know what they are supposed to do with themselves. In fact, no one knows what they are supposed to do. David, the enthusiastic young conscript, didn't know, his fellow members of the logistics battalion don't know and hardly any of the roughly 60,000 German conscripts knows. Not even the Bundeswehr itself knows.

*Dawdling Away the Days* 

This is why many conscripts, after completing basic training, learn how to spend time when there is nothing to do. They learn how to dawdle away hours, days, weeks and months, how to waste time running errands and sitting in office chairs, and they learn how to daydream in their units and offices, in hallways, rooms and barrack yards. Essentially, they learn how to loaf around. In the process, they become lazy, silly or creative, or sometimes all three. They do things like hold sleeping bag races, which they record with their mobile phone cameras. The Internet is full of such videos.

Seen in a positive light, compulsory military service is a gigantic, nine-month-long party for a bunch of young men (women are exempt from conscription in Germany). But what's the point of it all? What was the purpose of the government calling up 63,413 men for military service last year? Why does the state intervene in the lives of so many young people, even though it cannot explain to them what exactly they are supposed to do once they've arrived at their barracks?

Many conscripts believe that the government knows very well why it is drafting them and depriving them of their freedom for nine months. But the truth is more banal than that: It doesn't know. If it did, it would treat the young men differently. Five decades after it was introduced, the German draft has turned into a huge machine that is fed with young men and produces government-organized mass unemployment in the barracks.

The soldiers have come up with a word for the kind of activity that serves the sole purpose of making it seem as if they were busy. They call it Dummfick (loosely translatable as "stupid fucking around"). 

*Cleaning Clean Guns* 

Shortly after reporting for duty to his logistics battalion, David was ordered to clean some guns. There was only one problem: The guns were already clean. In fact, they had never been used. Some would say it was meant to be practice, but David had already learned how to clean guns in basic training. Nevertheless, he sat down on a chair in front of the weapons room, a clean MG 3 machine gun in front of him, and took apart, polished and reassembled it. Taking things apart, cleaning them, and putting them back together, hour after hour, day after day -- that's how conscripts spend their time.


To make matters worse, says David, the barracks were completely full, with four bunk beds in each room. Some of his fellow soldiers had to store their equipment in the attic because there wasn't any space for additional cupboards in the room. 

After graduating from high school, David, who comes from a small town in the western state of Hesse, was tempted by the prospect of getting a university education at the Bundeswehr and pursuing a career as an officer in the air force. His euphoria didn't last long. After two weeks, he was transferred from the weapons room to the company's business office, where there was just as little to do.

At least he didn't suffer the fate of a recruit in a transport battalion in western Germany, who was assigned to guard a telephone and answer official calls coming in to the phone. It was a monotonous task, because the phone never rang -- for weeks on end. It wasn't until a supervisor had the office furniture moved around that the soldier noticed the outlet behind a cupboard. As it turned out, the phone wasn't even plugged in.

LINK 

LINK to PART 2 'Hanging-Around Service'


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## ironduke57 (16 Aug 2010)

Here is a more detailed compilation of possible "reforms" from BansheeOne of Tanknet. It doesn´t look good :'


> We will get some semi-hard facts on where the train is headed on the 23rd, when Defense Minister zu Guttenberg will inform parlamentarians about the plans. However, the grapevine already shows a general picture.
> 
> Five models on future force structure were investigated, from the minimum 150,000-man all-professional to a 205,000-man Bundeswehr cutting the maximum amount of 40,000 contract soldiers while retaining conscription in its current form (about to be reduced to a mere six-month term come January 2011). The first has been judged incapable of fulfilling the obligations of German security policy while the last is considered unaffordable under the impending budget cuts forced by the debt cap recently entered into the constitution. The actual result will be somewhere in between.
> 
> ...



Regards,
ironduke57


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## MarkOttawa (24 Aug 2010)

No more conscription for _Bundeswehr_?

Germany Plans Major Restructuring of Military
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/world/europe/24iht-germany.html



> BERLIN — Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg on Monday unveiled plans to restructure Germany’s armed forces in what is regarded as one of the most radical military shake-ups since the end of the Cold War.
> 
> The measures include ending conscription, reducing the Bundeswehr, or armed forces, to 163,000 from 250,000 and streamlining the command structures. The goal is to turn the military into a highly professional and flexible corps.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MarkOttawa (24 Aug 2010)

More at _Spiegel Online_:

Germany Weighs the Elimination of Conscription
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,713539,00.html#ref=nlint



> German Defense Minister Guttenberg has proposed eliminating mandatory conscription and radically reducing the size of the country's armed forces. The move would also put an end to mandatory civil service for conscientious objectors. Editorialists are as conflicted by Guttenberg's proposals as the German government.
> 
> On Monday, German Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg unveiled his proposal to reform the German armed forces, the Bundeswehr, as part of his country's ambitious savings measures. In coming up with savings potential for Guttenberg's €31 billion ($39 billion) Defense Ministry budget, he called into question fundamental military structures.
> 
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## vonGarvin (24 Aug 2010)

Armies across NATO are/have reduced significantly since 1990, "die Wende" as Germany calls it (the "Change").  The Federal Republic had a total of 11 Panzer and Panzergrenadier Divisions in 1989, and the German Democractic Republic had one tank and four Motor Rifle divisions.  That's a lot of divisions!  Now they are going to a handful of brigades.

My question: why does Canada have virtually the same sized Land Force that it did in 1989?  Using Infantry as an example:
1989:
3 x Mechanised Brigade Groups (1, 4 and 5) with a total of eight infantry battalions, plus two more infantry battalions (1 RCR, CAR) in the Special Service Force (SSF).

2010:
3 x Mechanised Brigade Groups (1, 2 and 5) with a total of nine infantry battalions, plus two "battalion-like entities) in CANSOFCOM.

So, have we situated the estimate by saying that we can support a deployment of "x" if we have a force the size of "y", where y=our current force size?  Or did we say we need a force the size of "y" in order to support a deployment of "x", where "y"=our current force size?

I am of the opinion that we have situated the estimate.  A quick swag on my part would suggest that six infantry battalions across 3 brigades would be sufficient to conduct operations at the current pace *IF  * those infantry battalions (and all other units!!!) were at establishment strength.  One way to do that would be to eliminate 1 x Bn per infantry regiment.  That would give us 18 Full Up Infantry Companies, 6 x Full Up Combat Sp Companies, 6 x Full Up Logistics Companies and 6 x Full Up Battalion Headquarters.  But that is just a swag.  A proper estimate could reveal that we need 9 full up brigades ;D


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## Loachman (24 Aug 2010)

The problem is that those "full up" battalions would not remain "full up" for long, and pretty shortly after the "reform" they'd be six battalions in the same state as the nine that we have today.


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## dapaterson (24 Aug 2010)

Alternatively, we could move to four _lean_ CMBG HQs to provide both internationally and domestically deployable C2, each with 2 Bns of Inf (move 2 PPCLI from Shilo, rebadge them along with 2 RCR as Black Watch), give the ASGs over to a support brigade, put the five reg F Bdes under 1 Div HQ...

In parallel, have a Reserve Div HQ (largely manned by Reg F) to step up when I Can Div HQ is deployed (and to provide depth) over 4 Reserve CBGs (parallelling the Reg F CMBGs for training opportunities / cross pollination / augmenttion if/when required).

Of course, this means the loss of the 4 Areas.  Hands up anyone who will cry.


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## Edward Campbell (24 Aug 2010)

Is our strategic operational *requirement* something like:

1. one battle group (1,250+/- soldiers, includes _organic_ adm and log support 'tail') for sustained operations - 30 months plus; plus

2. a support element for that battle group that grows, during the 30 months, to 750+/- soldiers; plus

3. one battle group (1,250+/- soldiers, with organic adm and log support) ready to deploy for one six month tour of duty after a brief (less than 30 days) warning period?


Edit: added "something like"[color]


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## ironduke57 (25 Aug 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Armies across NATO are/have reduced significantly since 1990, "die Wende" as Germany calls it (the "Change").  The Federal Republic had a total of 11 Panzer and Panzergrenadier Divisions in 1989, and the German Democractic Republic had one tank and four Motor Rifle divisions.  That's a lot of divisions!  Now they are going to a handful of brigades.
> ...



Looking how our politicians want a bigger say in the UNSC and such maybe we should go the other way. Back to the BW+NVA numbers. Then send 3-4 divisions to northern Astan and we will see how long it takes to bring the situation under control.

(And after this we make some holidays in Paris! ;D (Or Rome? Madrid? We will see. >)

Regards,
ironduke57


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## vonGarvin (26 Aug 2010)

Hey, ironduke, if you do, ensure you use Muslim soldiers:







Then you can relax in Paris:







Hey, maybe even re-enact the 1940 Tour de France:






;D


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## MarkOttawa (26 Oct 2010)

More on shrinking, including A400M:

1) German Committee Recommends Cutbacks in Defense Spending
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/25/world/europe/25iht-germany.html?partner=rss&emc=rss



> As major European countries seek to cut military forces in response to the economic slowdown and pressure from finance officials to rein in spending, the Defense Ministry of Germany has been advised to cut its staff by half, close several army bases and slim the armed forces from 250,000 to 180,000.
> 
> The recommendations were announced Sunday by Frank-Jürgen Weise, the head of a special cross-party commission charged with restructuring Germany’s military.
> 
> ...



2) Germany Confirms A400M Agreement
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/asd/2010/10/26/01.xml



> Germany will take only 53 of the 60 Airbus Military A400Ms originally on order, German government sources indicated on Oct. 25.
> 
> A400M customers continue to chip away at the commitment of 180 units that was negotiated as part of a general settlement reached in March. With the U.K. planning to cut its commitment by three aircraft, the *total program now totals 170 aircraft* [emphasis added]...



Mark
Ottawa


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## FoverF (1 Nov 2010)

Airbus have no-one but themselves (and Europrop) to blame for losing orders. Hard to cancel orders for aircraft that were delivered in a reasonable timeframe, and have been on the ramp for 5 years.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Nov 2010)

Germany to abolish compulsory military service

The German government has announced plans to abolish compulsory military service by next summer, marking the most radical overhaul of the armed forces since its postwar founding and a major change to German society.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/22/germany-abolish-compulsory-military-service


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## brihard (23 Nov 2010)

Good. Any time involuntary servitude of any sort is ended it's a good thing for freedom.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Nov 2010)

I _think _  we already did this, didn't we?


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## ironduke57 (18 Dec 2010)

Thanks to BansheeOne from Tanknet for this:


> Cabinet signed off on the reform on Wednesday. Everybody is acting surprised it will probably not save the 8.4 billion Euros which were the original driving force behind the whole thing. Looks like the MoD's scare tactics of advertizing super-austere force structures will pay off.
> 
> Future force will consist of 170,000 professionals and up to 15,000 voluntary short-timers. I've caught a glimpse at a briefing document that treats the early six-brigade army model (with two division HQs, plus French-German brigade, airborne and SF forces) and the more recent divisional battlegroup phantasms as equal options. The buzz is that with the increased manpower ceiling there's now enough mass to have proper brigades with balanced armor and infantry capabilities (and maybe even organic artillery) again.
> 
> ...



Regards,
ironduke57


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## 57Chevy (15 Jan 2011)

German Defense Minister Seeks More European Military Cooperation
(Defense & Security News — By German Radio on December 10, 2010) 

Ahead of a defense ministers' meeting in Brussels, the German defense minister says he supports more European military cooperation. In a time of austerity, resources should be shared, said Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg.

German Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg said he is willing for Germany's military to share some of its duties with other armies in Europe.

In an opinion piece written for the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung daily on Thursday, Guttenberg said there could be a "sharing of roles and duties" among European countries.

In Brussels later Thursday, Guttenberg together with his Swedish counterpart Sten Tolgfors will present a project advocating reinforced European military cooperation. European defense ministers are meeting to examine how to make up for the general cut in military budgets due to widespread austerity measures.

Pooling of skills and materials
Guttenberg said some military duties are essential for each nation and would "remain within the national competence." However the "scarcity of resources in all nations" means that the pooling of skills and equipment to support European partners is important.

"The commitment to European defense must be more than just lip service," Guttenberg said in the article. "By intensifying our military cooperation, we will all benefit in the end."

The minister suggested three categories of cooperation. The first would cover military duties that are simply in the national interest and can be handled alone. The second would be a "straight collaboration between partners, without them abandoning national responsibilities." In the third category, there were duties for which "one could lean on a European partner."

Examples of cooperation in the last two categories include joint financing of research and development, training and shared use of materials.

link

                              (Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act)


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