# ROTP after High School Questions



## kona_mtb

I have always been fascinated by the military lifestyle and as im graduating this spring from high school I am wanting to enlist with the canadian armed forces most hopefully as an infantry soldier. This being said I am also wanting to obtain some further education with a bachaleur of arts with a major in criminology and a minor in pyschology opening up a career path as a lawyer or law enforcement position, possibly in the military police force. So after some research I have determined that the ROTP would be a path I am very intrested in taking. I am aware that you go through basic training and then a mix of officer training and degree training but I am woundering at what point will you get to serve in combat and if my first experiance of active duty will be as an officer or at some point of my training would I get to serve as a regular infantry soldier and get the feeling of combat in a less than leadership role.


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## Shamrock

In ROTP, during the academic semester, you will be employed at a university -- either RMC or a university of your choice.  Your summers will see you doing your training and/or employment while awaiting training (EWAT).  During this time, you will be an Officer Cadet.  Upon completion of phase 1 and receipt of your bachelor's degree, you will receive your commission and will begin your career as an officer in the regular forces.


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## chris_log

H'ok;

Shamrock about summed it up, you will be at school during the year (charm school or civvie school) and will train during the summer, either on a course or on EWAT/OJT. You will be an Officer Cadet until you graduate school, at which point you will be commissioned and sent on your final course and get posted. 

You want infantry? Well, you'll be an infantry officer and not an NCM through ROTP. Being an officer is different then being an NCM. As to your desire to deploy, you will get that chance (we're a busy military) although not necessarily in Afghanistan (the current mission ends in 2011 and who knows what it will look like after that, and you've still got four years of school ahead of you for ROTP, judging by your post). Also, you may not necessarily deploy as a platoon commander either, not trying to burst any bubbles but I don't want you to get any false hopes either. 

Have you looked at other jobs? If deploying is your goal there are numerous smaller missions around the globe that we send people on and support trades often get the go ahead for those. Make sure you research other trades (as appealing as infantry looks, and it does, there are other neat officer jobs out there). 

Finally, through ROTP you will sign a contract (I believe that IE for infantry officers is 13 years now) in which you will spend 4 years (or less, depending on when you sign up for ROTP) at school, 5 years paying back your degree and the rest to serve out your IE.


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## Lumber

In a nutshell, if you enter through the regular OFFICER training program, your first and every subsequent experience on active duty will be as an officer. You will not "get to serve as a regular infantry soldier and get the feeling of combat in a less than leadership role". However, during your first phase of training, (IAP and BOTP or whatever they are calling it now, BMOQ?) you will be evaluated on your leadership performance as a section commander. However, when the other candidates in your section are being evaluated themselves, you will serve as just a regular member of that section, doing all the footwork. This would be the only experience you get as a "regular infantry soldier".

Cheers.

P.S. It's *Bachelor* of Arts


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## gshim12

i have a question regarding the ROTP program...
so i can join any civilian university,
but would they call me over during my school year? and what if i want to get into med school? would they prolong the 5 yr service?


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## George Wallace

gshim12 said:
			
		

> i have a question regarding the ROTP program...
> so i can join any civilian university,
> but would they call me over during my school year? and what if i want to get into med school? would they prolong the 5 yr service?



Can I inquire as to how serious you are about this?


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## gshim12

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Can I inquire as to how serious you are about this?



i am serious about it.  i always wanted do become a military medic and i still do.
 my main concern however,is being pulled out during my school days, because as a science student one missed day is very big loss.   I've heard from others that you do get pulled out during the school year.  the recruiters told me that the forces take education into huge consideration and thus does not pull out anyone during the school days, but i just needed someone to clarify who is the correct one.   once again i am very serious about this.  plus in addition to that, is it true that med school reserves spot for those in the forces?

thanks for answering


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## Shamrock

gshim12 said:
			
		

> i am serious about it.  i always wanted do become a military medic and i still do.
> my main concern however,is being pulled out during my school days, because as a science student one missed day is very big loss.   I've heard from others that you do get pulled out during the school year.  the recruiters told me that the forces take education into huge consideration and thus does not pull out anyone during the school days, but i just needed someone to clarify who is the correct one.   once again i am very serious about this.  plus in addition to that, is it true that med school reserves spot for those in the forces?



The only time I recall being called out of class for the annual Subsidized Education Manager's brief -- once a year, totalling about 3 hours per.  Attendance at these briefs is mandatory but an excusal is possible if it conflicts with a mandatory attendance class.

I think you have been given information that skirts around what ROTP is.  ROTP candidates are soldiers whose primary duty is to attend an academic institute and maintain acceptable marks.  Infrequently, these duties may conflict; when and where this occurs, academics will be the primary concern but your SEM and ULO will have the final say.


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## chris_log

gshim12 said:
			
		

> i am serious about it.  i always wanted do become a military medic and i still do.
> my main concern however,is being pulled out during my school days, because as a science student one missed day is very big loss.   I've heard from others that you do get pulled out during the school year.  the recruiters told me that the forces take education into huge consideration and thus does not pull out anyone during the school days, but i just needed someone to clarify who is the correct one.   once again i am very serious about this.  plus in addition to that, is it true that med school reserves spot for those in the forces?
> 
> thanks for answering



I assume you are asking if you will get pulled out of class to go on training, course etc. The answer is no. That's what the summers are for. Your job during the school year is to go to class and earn a degree.


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## ballz

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Can I inquire as to how serious you are about this?



He is asking questions and finding out details so he can make a properly informed decision. Why is there anything wrong with that?


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## gshim12

ballz said:
			
		

> He is asking questions and finding out details so he can make a properly informed decision. Why is there anything wrong with that?



thank you for understanding
but um.. i'm a girl


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## George Wallace

ballz said:
			
		

> He is asking questions and finding out details so he can make a properly informed decision. Why is there anything wrong with that?



Sorry, to offend you, but having to deal with people who want to become officers on a regular basis, it really upsets me when they come across as uneducated and can not communicate properly in the written form.  There are many others on the site, who are educators or in HR, who also feel offended by such lack of communication skills.


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## ballz

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sorry, to offend you, but having to deal with people who want to become officers on a regular basis, it really upsets me when they come across as uneducated and can not communicate properly in the written form.  There are many others on the site, who are educators or in HR, who also feel offended by such lack of communication skills.



I am not offended. I just get sick of people getting jumped on because they ask what are considered stupid questions by people within the military, which aren't stupid at all because it's not common knowledge to people outside the military. You asked "how serious she is about it" which to me seemed more like you were talking about the content of her messages and not how they were written. I understand completely why people on here are expected to communicate as efficiently as they are able to, I just didn't think that was what you were pointing out to her.


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## George Wallace

The question is what would you expect of a person going to any university, with the aspirations of becoming a leader, in any field?  If you really are serious about doing so, then you should be showing your skills and abilities to be accepted into a program that will benefit you.  You first impressions can be lasting.  

A simple question as to how serious you are in your aspirations, should solicite response indicating a desire to achieve the goal, or perhaps indicate that you are looking at various options, of which this may only be one.


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## gshim12

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sorry, to offend you, but having to deal with people who want to become officers on a regular basis, it really upsets me when they come across as uneducated and can not communicate properly in the written form.  There are many others on the site, who are educators or in HR, who also feel offended by such lack of communication skills.



sir, i hope you are not implying that towards my communication skills, for if you are it is truly offending.  you said as an educator you feel offended by the lack of communication skills people have, but isn't it the job of an educator to accept it and correct the mistake they made so that they won't repeat it again for the future?  I was asking about the program because i happen to be the first person in my family to actually consider joining the forces.  not everyone is educated in that area as you or those in HR.  i believe people have the rights to ask questions whether it is stupid or not.  i mean come on joining the forces is contracted and people would want to know everything before they sign the paper.


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## aesop081

gshim12 said:
			
		

> i mean come on joining the forces is contracted and people would want to know everything before they sign the paper.



Theres a difference between "knowing all you can before signing up" and "asking retarded questions about every little possible detail".

People around here, generaly speaking, have a problem making the distinction.


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## infamous_p

I think it would have been a much more efficient use of time to answer the questions being asked, perhaps providing the Army.ca conduct guidelines, maybe a lecture about the availability of the search function on the website, followed by a locking of the topic if necessary rather than wasting time arguing over whether or not the original questions were stupid, how stupid these questions were, who is educated and who is not, how serious someone is about joining, etc. For God's sake, everyone at some point or another went through "that phase" of wanting to know and asking about every possible detail. Too many people get in, leech valuable resources from the system and get out a few months later because they did not bother to educate themselves. Responding to those who _are_ trying to educate themselves in this way definitely does nothing but deter them from seeking information.

Just my opinion.


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## Lumber

Why hasn't anyone just told her yet to use capitals? Wouldn't that fix everything? Isn't that what George was getting at, anyways?


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## ballz

Nope... Apparently it was something much deeper than that, that's why I stopped responding to the thread.

Anyway, infamous_p, yes, I agree completely, it's what I was trying to get at.


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## infamous_p

gshim12 said:
			
		

> i am serious about it.  i always wanted do become a military medic and i still do.
> my main concern however,is being pulled out during my school days, because as a science student one missed day is very big loss.   I've heard from others that you do get pulled out during the school year.  the recruiters told me that the forces take education into huge consideration and thus does not pull out anyone during the school days, but i just needed someone to clarify who is the correct one.   once again i am very serious about this.  plus in addition to that, is it true that med school reserves spot for those in the forces?
> 
> thanks for answering



If you go apply for any of the education subsidization programs for your medical degree (I believe the one you are looking for is referred to as MOTP - standing for Medical Officer Training Plan) and are accepted into the program, you will, obviously, go to school and earn your respective degree(s) and be subsidized for doing so. All of the SEM (subsidized education management) programs try to limit *as much as possible* the days of school you miss to do administrative work at your local base/unit. After all, you are "an employee of the Crown who's job it is to go to school". To answer your question, no, you will not normally be pulled out of school during your school days. You will only be "pulled out" under special circumstance such as, as mentioned earlier in this thread, the annual subsidized education manager's briefing, which only lasts approximately three hours on a weekday morning at the beginning of the school year. Other than that, the only other times that it will be necessary to do "military" stuff on any particular weekday would be to go into your local base/unit to submit claims for books/tuition/school supplies, travel expenses (if applicable), and to report and/or fix any pay problems that you may or may not encounter. These types of things will be on your shoulders - you will have to make an appointment with the unit's Chief Clerk (the individual overseeing the operations of the personnel support section of your unit/base) in order to have these things finalized. Obviously, this makes it very convenient for you as you are not being "pulled out" during your school days but rather you are making an appointment with your Chief Clerk at a time that is most convenient for you (e.g., a time during a Wednesday when you have a three hour break between classes [hypothetically]). 

Other than those things I've mentioned, you will not normally be pulled out during any school day. Again, it is your job to go to school and earn your degree, and considering the CF is footing the bill, it would not be in the best interest of the CF to keep pulling students out of school and having them fall behind in schoolwork, etc. On top of that, for things such as the annual subsidized education manager's (SEM) brief, you are able to speak to your ULO (university liaison officer) to get an exemption from the brief if it is absolutely imperative that you cannot miss a class for any specific reason.

You are in the right place to be asking these questions because when it comes to details such as how the program works once you are IN the system (i.e., wondering how often you will have to attend briefings and how administrative work gets completed), it is often best to ask those who are currently in the programs you are seeking information on rather than asking the CFRC about these "internal" things. The CFRC is great for answering questions about the program you are interested in, but their job is to process you and to get you through and into the system for the program you are in, provided you are properly qualified. Questions of a more specific nature about the internal-workings of each individual program are best to be directed at those managing the programs themselves (for example, the SEMs, ULOs, and/or Chief Clerks). With that being said, it IS always best to initially direct all of your questions toward your local CFRC. If you don't get the answers you want or need from them, then feel free to ask or search around the forums here or get in touch with people already in the program.

Search around the forums here - using the 'search' tool on the main page - there is a vast amount of information here on all aspects of CF life that I'm sure you'd be interested in, including different entry programs.

Good luck


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## thatcadetkid

Just a real quick question i have about the ROTP Program, I know they pay for all your expenses such as food and others, but they mention that it is deducted from your total sallary.


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## ballz

They do NOT pay for all your expenses such as food and other costs of living.

They pay your tuition, your books, pens/stationary stuff, some lab equipment if needed, a dictionary, a calculator.

They don't pay your rent, your food, your phone bill, blah blah blah.

They pay you a salary of approximentally 1400-1500 per month. There is nothing deducted from that besides the usual taxes, pension, life insurance, etc.


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## thatcadetkid

ballz said:
			
		

> They do NOT pay for all your expenses such as food and other costs of living.
> 
> They pay your tuition, your books, pens/stationary stuff, some lab equipment if needed, a dictionary, a calculator.
> 
> They don't pay your rent, your food, your phone bill, blah blah blah.
> 
> They pay you a salary of approximentally 1400-1500 per month. There is nothing deducted from that besides the usual taxes, pension, life insurance, etc.



Oh, and how long are you required to stay at RMC / day then?


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## SupersonicMax

Hmmm, you LIVE at RMC.


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## ballz

Oh s**t, my bad. Totally jumped the gun there and neglected RMC.

Everything I said applies to Civie U Ocdts... I can't speak for RMC Ocdts.


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## ice1520

i have a question too.
My friend told me that when you go into service after rotp your pay is lowered to pay it back.


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## Shamrock

No.

Your pay is not docked for your subsidy after the period of your subsidy.

However, the bridge you're likely to buy may be costly.


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## Arcany

Shamrock said:
			
		

> No.
> 
> Your pay is not docked for your subsidy after the period of your subsidy.
> 
> However, the bridge you're likely to buy may be costly.



What do you mean by "bridge"?


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## Lumber

ice1520 said:
			
		

> i have a question too.
> My friend told me that when you go into service after rotp your pay is lowered to pay it back.



What?! They can lower our pay even further?! But how can you subtract from nothing!?!  ;D


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## dwalter

Don't be so bitter Lumber! The pay is pretty good for doing nothing but going to school!


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## Snakedoc

This idea has been floated around before but what do you guys (currently in ROTP) think of incorporating mandatory service at the nearest reserve unit on a training night at least once a week during the school year for ROTP cadets as part of their ROTP SERVICE?  This is where ROTP cadets would be attached posted to their nearest possible reserve unit.  Reservists, the majority of which are in university, do this regularly so I do not see how someone in the REGULAR Force would not be able to juggle both the duties of school and military training during the year.  This also benefits the cadet as it provides them with training to better prepare them for classification training in the future and leadership training early on.

It baffles me that someone being paid by the crown to go to school in the reg force could potentially go through an entire academic year without doing one thing military or even be in uniform.  A question for the more experienced members of the forum....Why has this not been done in the past?  How can this be implemented?


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## chris_log

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> This idea has been floated around before but what do you guys (currently in ROTP) think of incorporating mandatory service at the nearest reserve unit on a training night at least once a week during the school year for ROTP cadets as part of their ROTP SERVICE?  This is where ROTP cadets would be attached posted to their nearest possible reserve unit.  Reservists, the majority of which are in university, do this regularly so I do not see how someone in the REGULAR Force would not be able to juggle both the duties of school and military training during the year.  This also benefits the cadet as it provides them with training to better prepare them for classification training in the future and leadership training early on.
> 
> It baffles me that someone being paid by the crown to go to school in the reg force could potentially go through an entire academic year without doing one thing military or even be in uniform.  A question for the more experienced members of the forum....Why has this not been done in the past?  How can this be implemented?



Schools with no local reserve unit? There's a start, do we require some ROTP types to parade and some not to?

Also, what about say the air and navy types in areas with only Militia units? What are they supposed to do, not only do they not have the proper field kit (after BOTP) but they also lack any 'army' skills to make themselves useful to the reserve unit. On that note, say (like in Guelph) we have one small local Militia unit and 12 or so OCdt's, from two different environments. What is the reserve unit supposed to do with 12 young, untrained OCdt's? Keep in mind these units are limited in things like ammo, space and other training aids and getting a group of young, untrained officers who aren't really part of their estabishment, can't be sent on courses and aren't always available is a waste of resources. They aren't going to stick a bunch of us in the sections (aren't trained as such, even with CAP etc) and can't put us in leadership positions (again, not trained). 

Essentially, requiring reserve units to take on a bunch of untrained officers that they don't get to 'keep' and can't find positions for is placing an unecessary burden on them. Again, what if you get a bunch of OCdt's at a school and the only local reserve unit is an HMCS Something? What on earth will they do with the army and air force types?

Good idea, but can't be implemented. People who want to do something like this are allowed to, but you can't make it mandatory. Now, a better idea (IMHO) is encouraging the more senior ROTP types (post BOTP) to assist at local cadet units, where their basic skills can actually be put to use and leadership skills (teaching classes especially) can be put to use.


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## Lumber

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> Don't be so bitter Lumber! The pay is pretty good for doing nothing but going to school!



Woa know, I (we) do a lot more than just go to school. For example, if I have a tuesday morning briefing and my Intramural water polo game doesn't start until 2200hrs, then my day begins at around 0630 and ends at 2300. Thats a long day and I'm only in school for a part of it.

Cheers mate.

(p.s. I know civi-U types can be very busy as well....)


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## benny88

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> Don't be so bitter Lumber! The pay is pretty good for doing nothing but going to school!



I take offense to that as well.


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## dwalter

Woah, sorry, I didn't mean any offense. My days are pretty long since I commute for about 3 hours of my day. We have plenty to keep us busy, and no mandatory fitness, which means we have to motivate ourselves to do it ourselves. Trust me when I say it's easy to let certain aspects slide when term paper season opens. 

The "  " was meant to signify the fact that I was kidding... But what would the system be if the ROTP people didn't accuse us Civvy U folks of being slackers?


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## benny88

No, it's not mandatory, but stay on top of it or you'll be a big bag on course. I would argue that we SHOULD have as much or nearly as much to do as RMC OCdts, we just are more self regulated.


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## SMP

I agree with Piper. Honestly, one big reason as to why I went the ROTP route was to "escape" from the Reserve trg each week to be able to focus on school more. Last year, for the majority, I was unable to work as a reservist because my program was intense. This year, I do not have the time or the availability in my school schedule to spend time with the reserve unit, just to give an example of a regular force member who cannot juggle work and school. Our job is to go to school. 

I do believe it is a good idea to keep in the loop, there are other ways of doing so. Those who want to, and are able to, can volunteer at a Reserve unit with permission. Reserve units are generally structured to be self-sufficient, with the expection of Reg F support staff; most people I know who volunteer their time at the units don't get to do much teaching, or much of anything for that matter. Again, it's situation and trade dependant.


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## Shamrock

What's the benefit to the gaining reserve unit to have a battalion of OCdt's with various levels of training descend upon them?


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## Snakedoc

Piper said:
			
		

> Schools with no local reserve unit? There's a start, do we require some ROTP types to parade and some not to?



If parading at a reserve unit became an integral part of the ROTP system, it would make sense that only universities within a reasonable distance from a reserve unit would be eligible for new ROTP candidates.  Most major universities should have a reserve unit in their vicinity anyways because they are located in major cities.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> Also, what about say the air and navy types in areas with only Militia units? What are they supposed to do, not only do they not have the proper field kit (after BOTP) but they also lack any 'army' skills to make themselves useful to the reserve unit. On that note, say (like in Guelph) we have one small local Militia unit and 12 or so OCdt's, from two different environments. What is the reserve unit supposed to do with 12 young, untrained OCdt's? Keep in mind these units are limited in things like ammo, space and other training aids and getting a group of young, untrained officers who aren't really part of their estabishment, can't be sent on courses and aren't always available is a waste of resources. They aren't going to stick a bunch of us in the sections (aren't trained as such, even with CAP etc) and can't put us in leadership positions (again, not trained).



There are two options for cadets of different environments without a matching environmental reserve unit.  Either they can, from the outset, be only allowed to choose a university with the proper environmental reserve unit in its vicinity; or they can be attached posted to a unit of a different environment.  Having 12 or so OCdt's in a small militia unit is fine, as long as there are more NCM's then there are officers.  If anything this gives the cadets a chance to put on their uniform and help out any way they can at the unit (even if it means supporting the wardroom/officer's mess lol). Learning to be an officer is more than learning how to operate in one’s environment, and much of this ‘officership’ can be taught at the unit level with commissioned officers as mentors.  This is where subordinate officers can be assigned a divisional or platoon officer to shadow and learn the ropes involved in their jobs (much of the bread and butter work of an officer) such as: writing PER’s and PDR’s, learning the military administration system to help the people under your command, shadowing officers on exercises to learn basic leadership techniques, learning how to deal with NCM’s and the complex officer NCM relationship that exists, learning where to look for information and even who to ask, and even learning things like mess etiquette and military culture (etc. etc.).  Getting these basics down early can help cadets become more comfortable in the military system and allow them to be better able to hit the ground running when they are given responsibility, letting officers focus more on big picture leading rather than the nitty gritty details.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> Essentially, requiring reserve units to take on a bunch of untrained officers that they don't get to 'keep' and can't find positions for is placing an unecessary burden on them. Again, what if you get a bunch of OCdt's at a school and the only local reserve unit is an HMCS Something? What on earth will they do with the army and air force types?



In addition, reserve units will often have a training program set up for all those members that are not yet basic qualified to get them prepared for their basic training.  Having a bunch of untrained NCdt’s and OCdt’s is no different than all the other subordinate officers a reserve unit normally has to deal with in the first place.  They can be attached posted to the unit and essentially become part of the unit.  As their training progresses they can be allowed to participate further (such as in sections) and often can be given leadership positions (I’ve even heard of NCdt’s being operations officers at a reserve NRD due to the lack of officers available).  This would be no different from OJT that ROTP cadets sometimes do but just on a part time basis.



			
				Shamrock said:
			
		

> What's the benefit to the gaining reserve unit to have a battalion of OCdt's with various levels of training descend upon them?



What’s in it for the reserve units?  Well if this was made an integral part of the ROTP system for civie U cadets, it could just become part of a reserve units regular mandate.  ROTP cadets can be treated just like any other member of the unit with the reg force ROTP system providing compensation for training costs.  Essentially they become extra members at no cost for salary to the unit.  Something may also need to be developed to incent reserve units to take on extra ROTP members (these are all just ideas up for debate).  Also some sort of standardized training program may need to be developed from the people that run the ROTP program or they can be just integrated into the training of other reserve officers.  Often the issue at reserve units is more the fact that there arn't enough officers..rather than too much.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> Good idea, but can't be implemented. People who want to do something like this are allowed to, but you can't make it mandatory. Now, a better idea (IMHO) is encouraging the more senior ROTP types (post BOTP) to assist at local cadet units, where their basic skills can actually be put to use and leadership skills (teaching classes especially) can be put to use.



There’s no reason why a reg force member in ROTP can’t commit to training at a reserve unit at least once a week or even the bare minimum in the reserve world of once every three weeks because reservists do this all the time!  Not to mention people at RMC are essentially doing this every day.  I just think that the Crown needs to be getting more bang for their buck if they are going to be paying for a cadets education.  If reservists are both going to university and training at a unit..but the reg force can’t or isn’t willing to, what does that say about the training of ROTP members?  They should be setting the standard or be above the standard of the reserves because its their full time job!  A ROTP cadet’s job should not only be to go to school but to participate in military training/activities during the year as well.  IMO, since they’re not going to a military college the least they can do to maintain some semblance of being in the military during the year is parade with a reserve unit.  I would argue that teaching at a local cadet unit should be something ROTP cadets volunteer in doing, however parading at a unit should be mandatory as its specifically designed to fit in with work/school and is actually in the CF system.


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## Shamrock

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> What’s in it for the reserve units?  Well if this was made an integral part of the ROTP system for civie U cadets, it could just become part of a reserve units regular mandate.  ROTP cadets can be treated just like any other member of the unit with the reg force ROTP system providing compensation for training costs.  Essentially they become extra members at no cost for salary to the unit.  Something may also need to be developed to incent reserve units to take on extra ROTP members (these are all just ideas up for debate).  Also some sort of standardized training program may need to be developed from the people that run the ROTP program or they can be just integrated into the training of other reserve officers.  Often the issue at reserve units is more the fact that there arn't enough officers..rather than too much.



Thus providing an endless supply of bottom level officers and subalterns who depart after a relatively short period and limiting their pool of their own promotable leaders.


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## benny88

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> There are two options for cadets of different environments without a matching environmental reserve unit.  Either they can, from the outset, be only allowed to choose a university with the proper environmental reserve unit in its vicinity...




Snakedoc, I think your post is well thought out, but I strongly disagree with this. Canada doesn't have enough universities to accomodate that. Some programs are rare or unique. My program, for instance is Aviation, along with 10 or 12 other OCdts, it's a unique program in Canada, but there's no Air Force unit in sight.


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## SMP

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Thus providing an endless supply of bottom level officers and subalterns who depart after a relatively short period and limiting their pool of their own promotable leaders.



Units have limited numbers of positions for Jr Officers as it is.

Let alone the confusion it would cause on the financial side of the units. Every time there is a range weekend or an ex, members don't really go for free, and there are more costs than for just salary. There are set budgets for R&Q, ammo, fuel, etc., for each unit, based on numbers within the PRes unit. To just "compensate" for the trg costs won't work. 

As I've stated before, many people in university are not in programs which go 0900hrs - 1600hrs each day. I have 18 hours of class each week,plus 16 hours of clinical time in the hospital; in addition research, assignments, studying, and maintaning my personal level of fitness.  I don't get to choose any of my classes, or my practicum times. I might do an 8 hour shift in an evening, or have to be up at 0600hrs some mornings to go to clinical. I could only imagine how much my stress level would increase having to attend trg each week, or weekends for that matter. My academic performance would decrease, as well as my sleep and health in general. If anybody else has experienced being a reservist in an infantry unit and doing a science degree concurrently, they will likely understand where I am coming from.

Let's safe the sleep deprivation from weekend ex's for the summer courses, and get through our educations with high achievement.  
We'll have plenty of time after we graduate to experience the military life. Savour your time at a Civi U and don't wish the time away.


----------



## dimsum

benny88 said:
			
		

> Snakedoc, I think your post is well thought out, but I strongly disagree with this. Canada doesn't have enough universities to accomodate that. Some programs are rare or unique. My program, for instance is Aviation, along with 10 or 12 other OCdts, it's a unique program in Canada, but there's no Air Force unit in sight.



Some things about the CF can be learned no matter what element your "unit" is.  I was in UWO Aviation as well, and paraded at HMCS PREVOST as a MARS officer.  Even if you aren't in that element, there are general things about the CF (administration/mess life) that junior officers seem to get thrown into without enough knowledge/training.  While doing paperwork one night a week doesn't seem like a lot of fun, you can learn a lot of other things while you're at it.  

The way I see it, the chances you work in a pure AF/Army/Navy setting will be pretty slim in the long run...might as well know how the other elements work.


----------



## benny88

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Some things about the CF can be learned no matter what element your "unit" is.  I was in UWO Aviation as well, and paraded at HMCS PREVOST as a MARS officer.  Even if you aren't in that element, there are general things about the CF (administration/mess life) that junior officers seem to get thrown into without enough knowledge/training.  While doing paperwork one night a week doesn't seem like a lot of fun, you can learn a lot of other things while you're at it.
> 
> The way I see it, the chances you work in a pure AF/Army/Navy setting will be pretty slim in the long run...might as well know how the other elements work.



Very true, and I agree. I only made the post because it was suggested that Civvy-U OCdts only be allowed to attend Universities with reserve units of the right element close by. I agree that many of the ropes can be learned in any element.


----------



## chris_log

Again;

The issue is mainly the forcing of legions of young, untrained officers on units with LIMITED positions for junior officers and little time (and money, and resources) to waste on training and employing someone who they won't have for very long and most likely isn't in a trade normally part of that unit. Reserve units already have a task to accomplish with their limited resources, they don't need the added strain of being 'St Jean lite' (as thats all the 'army' skills many OCdt's have) or 'Gagetown lite' for a bunch of OCdt's. 

And, there is little to be gained (in comparison to the time, money and resources expended) in placing air force and army guys in navy reserve units, navy guys in army units etc. An army or navy reserve unit IS NOT like a regular force joint unit (like an HQ). So these kids won't be learning 'joint' stuff, they'll be stuck in the OR shuffling paper. A bunch of different colored uniforms does not make a 'joint' unit or give anyone a 'joint' experience. ROTP types have already 'learned the ropes' at St Jean. Reserve units don't spend their weekend doing 5 man small party taskings building a mod tent, neither do they stand around doing drill by squads (unless there is a parade coming up). The stuff that could be learned in a reserve unit (section attacks for infantry guys, convoys for log types, driving a boat for the navy guys etc) is stuff that alot of guys couldn't participate in due to lack of training.  

It's a bad idea, hence why it was never seriously considered. 

Also;



> There are two options for cadets of different environments without a matching environmental reserve unit.  Either they can, from the outset, be only allowed to choose a university with the proper environmental reserve unit in its vicinity; or they can be attached posted to a unit of a different environment.



In regards to the comment about restricting access only to universities in areas with reserve units....you all do realise that MANY of the civvie-u ROTP types are guys joining in their second or third year and wouldn't be willing to transfer schools so late in their academic career.  



> Having 12 or so OCdt's in a small militia unit is fine, as long as there are more NCM's then there are officers.  If anything this gives the cadets a chance to put on their uniform and help out any way they can at the unit (even if it means supporting the wardroom/officer's mess lol).



It's not fine. It's a waste of everyone's time. I'd rather not just 'put on the uniform' if all I'm going to do is come in, play with the mess' paperwork and then leave (and there's already people doing that). 



> Also some sort of standardized training program may need to be developed from the people that run the ROTP program or they can be just integrated into the training of other reserve officers.  Often the issue at reserve units is more the fact that there arn't enough officers..rather than too much.



No, no...there are usually enough officers at reserve units. The problem is getting enough troops to fill the ranks.


----------



## Snakedoc

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Thus providing an endless supply of bottom level officers and subalterns who depart after a relatively short period and limiting their pool of their own promotable leaders.



I don't know about endless supply but I do agree that some sort of capacity increase would have to occur and this is something that can be worked out between the people that run the ROTP program and the reserve units (possibly in the form of a standardized training plan or program as I mentioned earlier).  ROTP cadets should be at the same unit for at least 3-4 years so this is not a relatively short period as many reserve officers arn't even around for that long since they change units, go on deployment etc.  Having people guaranteed to be around for 4 years may be actually nice in terms of continuity.  This would also not limit a reserve units pool of own promotable leaders as the ROTP cadets should be in addition to the units current compliment of officers.



			
				benny88 said:
			
		

> Snakedoc, I think your post is well thought out, but I strongly disagree with this. Canada doesn't have enough universities to accomodate that. Some programs are rare or unique. My program, for instance is Aviation, along with 10 or 12 other OCdts, it's a unique program in Canada, but there's no Air Force unit in sight.



I think Canada has more than enough Universities to accomodate ROTP cadets, in fact, don’t you need to be admitted to university first before applying ROTP?  In the instance of more specialized programs like aviation where no other reserve units are nearby, then maybe special accomodations can be made only for these specialized programs where cadets would still have to attend weekend exercises once every month.



			
				SMP said:
			
		

> Let alone the confusion it would cause on the financial side of the units. Every time there is a range weekend or an ex, members don't really go for free, and there are more costs than for just salary. There are set budgets for R&Q, ammo, fuel, etc., for each unit, based on numbers within the PRes unit. To just "compensate" for the trg costs won't work.



I don't think that an additional administrative burden is an adequate reason to not to ensure ROTP cadets are getting the military work/training during the academic year they should be getting.  Many ROTP cadets already regularly volunteer at reserve units and attend exercises without issue.  If simply compensation for the additional trg costs isn't enough, I'm sure that something can be worked out with the ROTP program and the reserves to compensate reserve units a certain amount per ROTP cadet to go on exercises (covering R&Q, ammo, fuel, etc.).  The point is that mere logistical issues can be worked out and shouldn't be the reason to not do something that can be of benefit to a ROTP cadets training, especially if this became part of a reserve units mandate.



			
				SMP said:
			
		

> As I've stated before, many people in university are not in programs which go 0900hrs - 1600hrs each day. I have 18 hours of class each week,plus 16 hours of clinical time in the hospital; in addition research, assignments, studying, and maintaning my personal level of fitness.  I don't get to choose any of my classes, or my practicum times. I might do an 8 hour shift in an evening, or have to be up at 0600hrs some mornings to go to clinical. I could only imagine how much my stress level would increase having to attend trg each week, or weekends for that matter. My academic performance would decrease, as well as my sleep and health in general. If anybody else has experienced being a reservist in an infantry unit and doing a science degree concurrently, they will likely understand where I am coming from.



And yet people in the reserves are able to do this regularly.  Again, I don't think that a busy schedule at school is an adequate reason to not be able to make it to a reserve unit even once every 3 weeks at the reserve minimum.  I've even known several med students at reserve units who've been able to come in regularly AND go on exercise.  I hope you're not suggesting that people in the reserves are only Arts students because i'm sure you can find people doing a full compliment of university students at a reserve unit INCLUDING science and engineering.  Increased stress levels, lack of sleep, and 'detrimental health' are weak excuses for not simply going to a reserve unit once a week and an exercise every month.  There are people who committ more time to volunteering in the community or in sports teams while in university than the time it takes to committ to a reserve unit.  The military is your full time job!



			
				SMP said:
			
		

> Let's safe the sleep deprivation from weekend ex's for the summer courses, and get through our educations with high achievement.
> We'll have plenty of time after we graduate to experience the military life. Savour your time at a Civi U and don't wish the time away.



If ROTP cadets can't handle both school and reserve training at the same time, I think they'll have MUCH more problems surviving in the military.

My take away message here is that ROTP cadets should be continuously doing something military during the academic year in addition to going to a civilian university, especially since the Crown is paying for their education.  The reserve system is a great way to accomodate this since it is specifically designed for people who ARE going to school or work at the same time as being in the CF.  I think its great we're having this discussion but I still don't see any solid reasons against this.


----------



## Snakedoc

Piper said:
			
		

> The issue is mainly the forcing of legions of young, untrained officers on units with LIMITED positions for junior officers and little time (and money, and resources) to waste on training and employing someone who they won't have for very long and most likely isn't in a trade normally part of that unit. Reserve units already have a task to accomplish with their limited resources, they don't need the added strain of being 'St Jean lite' (as thats all the 'army' skills many OCdt's have) or 'Gagetown lite' for a bunch of OCdt's.



I think I answered this in my post regarding increased capacity.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> And, there is little to be gained (in comparison to the time, money and resources expended) in placing air force and army guys in navy reserve units, navy guys in army units etc. An army or navy reserve unit IS NOT like a regular force joint unit (like an HQ). So these kids won't be learning 'joint' stuff, they'll be stuck in the OR shuffling paper. A bunch of different colored uniforms does not make a 'joint' unit or give anyone a 'joint' experience. ROTP types have already 'learned the ropes' at St Jean. Reserve units don't spend their weekend doing 5 man small party taskings building a mod tent, neither do they stand around doing drill by squads (unless there is a parade coming up). The stuff that could be learned in a reserve unit (section attacks for infantry guys, convoys for log types, driving a boat for the navy guys etc) is stuff that alot of guys couldn't participate in due to lack of training.



Again, this is learning basic 'officership' and the duties required of an officer, the military culture (messing etc.) that I mentioned in my earlier post.  ROTP cadets are employed full time by the reg force and should be utilized in a military way during the academic year.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> In regards to the comment about restricting access only to universities in areas with reserve units....you all do realise that MANY of the civvie-u ROTP types are guys joining in their second or third year and wouldn't be willing to transfer schools so late in their academic career.



Then maybe these people should think of going DEO.  Or there is also the option I mentioned earlier of making exceptions to only attend weekend exercises.  Again, these are all just ideas.  The point is that ROTP cadets should be at least doing something military during the academic year.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> It's not fine. It's a waste of everyone's time. I'd rather not just 'put on the uniform' if all I'm going to do is come in, play with the mess' paperwork and then leave (and there's already people doing that).



I think even simply putting the uniform on and coming in is extremely important to the military mindset.  You're going to have to get used to doing paperwork and messing because that is largely what officers do in the CF.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> No, no...there are usually enough officers at reserve units. The problem is getting enough troops to fill the ranks.



Not in my experience, at least on the Navy side of things I've found that not having enough officers (and recruiting in general) is usually the issue.  Especially having people that stick around.



			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> Some things about the CF can be learned no matter what element your "unit" is.  I was in UWO Aviation as well, and paraded at HMCS PREVOST as a MARS officer.  Even if you aren't in that element, there are general things about the CF (administration/mess life) that junior officers seem to get thrown into without enough knowledge/training.  While doing paperwork one night a week doesn't seem like a lot of fun, you can learn a lot of other things while you're at it.
> 
> The way I see it, the chances you work in a pure AF/Army/Navy setting will be pretty slim in the long run...might as well know how the other elements work.



I absolutely agree.


----------



## SMP

The naval reserve is a lot different than an infantry reserve unit. This is getting out of hand...


----------



## dimsum

SMP said:
			
		

> The naval reserve is a lot different than an infantry reserve unit. This is getting out of hand...



How so?  I've seen both sides and in essence, on a parade night both go in and do some sort of parade and training in whatever trades they do.  On the weekends, the army goes to the field for an ex, the Naval Reserve either does an ex near their unit and/or goes to the coast for some sea time.

While, say, an Air Ops ROTP might not be able to do those things...both types of reserve units have administration and a social aspect to them.  Something like PERs can be a pretty crappy thing to learn when your first experience with them is at an operational unit as a new Captain.   :-[


----------



## dwalter

The other issue with demanding people got to the reserves during school is that many of us have classes that run during the reserve training nights. A lot of the units parade on Thursday nights here, and I am not finished class until 9pm. There is no feasible way of accommodating that. 

Snackdoc, you made an interesting claim that we are full time members of the military first. This is only partially true. According to the my ULO and the SEM, and you can phone him and ask him if you like "As ROTP Officer Cadets, our first and primary duty is to attend school, and maintain acceptable grades. Our secondary duty is to the military, and to military training."

To paraphrase what we were told during in-clearance and the SEM briefing we had this year, going to school is our current trade in the military. The French rank "Éleve-Officier" is a far more accurate description of what we are, since it means "Student Officer". That is our role within the forces, to go to school. 

Now you can argue about this some more, or you can deal with it and make the realization that the system is not going to change just because you think it's a good idea. If you want to make changes to ROTP, then get yourself into Borden's recruiting department as a Personnel Development Officer. Then you might be able to change something, but as it stands you have expressed your opinion, and are now just arguing with, and also offending some of the people who are trying to discuss the down sides to your idea. This is a forum, which means a place for discussion.


----------



## chris_log

> "As ROTP Officer Cadets, our first and primary duty is to attend school, and maintain acceptable grades. Our secondary duty is to the military, and to military training."



Bingo. That's the job of ROTP students, to get an education.

If there was a local reserve unit near me that had a logistics focus (so a service battalion) then I would parade with them. But there isn't, so I don't. I don't want my time wasted, and I'm not going to waste a unit's time. 

There is MINIMAL benefit to having officer cadets whose training and trade have nothing to do with their local reserve unit parade with them. If the unit wants to take them and if the OCdt wants to do it, then go for it. But there is no point in forcing them too. RMC kids don't do alot of 'military stuff' outside of drill, ruck marches and range days (which we could do through our support bases if we made enough requests to participate), anything else is done as part of teams (like Sandhurst). 

It's a good idea, but not practical. There's no point in forcing OCdt's to do this just so they can throw on the uniform once a week and be 'reminded' they are still in the CF.

Like I said earlier, it would be better (for both the ROTP kids and the units involved) for us to help out at cadet units. Those guys are always understaffed and our minimal training is perfect for what they need (basic classroom instruction, drill, uniform maintenance etc). I've emailed my local army unit, but as of yet no answer back.


----------



## Snakedoc

I absoultely agree with the primary duty of a ROTP cadet.  However I don't think that their secondary duty is actually in conflict with their primary duty and that attending a reserve unit once in a while can actually help achieve both goals.  Obviously if school assignments are getting in the way, attendance can be excused once in a while but until attendance is actually required and not voluntary, there will always be people who don't go even though they should and I think that institutionally, that is a problem.

Reserve units often have more than one night (two usually) that members can come in as to accomodate the wide variety of schedules people have with work and school and there is also usually a weekend training day once a month to complete Combat Readiness Requirements in addition to weekends for exercises.  This gives quite a bit of flexibility for a ROTP cadet AND current reserve members to attend at least once every three weeks to maintain their status.



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> So after 3 and a bit years of ROTP and other 'military stuff' I'm going to eat some humble pie here and say that...IMHO, the CF should end the civvie-u option for ROTP (except for students going for medical, legal etc degrees) and expand RMC (or re-open Royal Roads and expand CMR) and ALL ROTP candidates go through there. Having almost completed my degree I can say that, while it was nice to get the degree....what I've learned applies hardly at all to the military. But what you do at RMC (fitness, team sports, bands, mil skills, Sandhurst, a military styled education etc) is far more applicable. Now, there are plenty of things that aren't so good about RMC (any honest RMC grad, staff or Kingston police officer will tell you that) BUT....I would suggest that you tick the box for RMC.



Piper, above is a quote you made in another forum. You and I both seem to agree that there isn't enough 'military stuff' occuring during the year for Civie U ROTP cadets?  Isn't the reserve option better than nothing then?  We both agree that it's a good idea.  You and I both seem to disagree on implementation due to differences in classification or environment... which we are both entitled to our opinions.  You think there's little value to this whereas I think there's value to learning more about 'officership' regardless of classification or environment.  Some of the 'military stuff' you mentioned RMC cadets do such as "drill, ruck marches, and range days' are all done at the reserve units regardless of environment (even the naval reserve is getting into the ruck marches with training for the BFT).  I think the opportunity to volunteer at cadet units is a great one but the disadvantage would be that the CIC world is, IMO, quite different from the rest of the CF world.  I think that the opportunity for classroom instruction, drill, and uniform maintenance can also be done at the reserve unit level with junior NCM's or new officers, especially if shadowing a platoon officer as a 2IC.

Intelligent Design, the term 'student officer' absolutely makes sense!  But my interpretation is that the student aspect involves going to school, and the officer aspect should involve doing something military along with that.  I'm 'dealing with this' by discussing it on a forum.  I honestly do not see how I am offending anyone here but if I am, I apologize.  My intention is not to 'argue' but rather debate and discuss...which is the purpose of these forums.  I don't see how my posts have crossed the line from discussion.  I've tried my best to respond to every point made regarding the 'down sides' of this idea and am open to suggestions and discussion on how to improve the ROTP system.  Do you think the system is sufficient the way it is now?

Edit: for grammar


----------



## dwalter

Sorry for being snappy before, however I ended up reading 2 pages of this thread too early in the morning, after having a long day before. I apologize.

Anyways, I am quite clearly a Civvi U OCdt, in my second year of school. I joined the forces after my first year at university, and thus have already been in the academic system this way for a bit. I haven't been on BMOQ yet, and the only actual 'military' things I've done have been to go up to my ASU for in clearance, and to go to my dental checkup yesterday. Quite often the only things that remind me I'm in the military are the ID card in my wallet, and the pay that goes into my account twice a month.

So, you are probably thinking this is a prime example of why your idea of having mandatory reserve time is a fantastic idea, and I'm quite sure that after basic next summer my tune will probably change, especially since I'm not allowed to work with a reserve unit until after that point. I have been working with my local cadet unit already, even before joining the forces, and so to the people who suggested that as an option, I'd be inclined to agree. We don't have an Air Reserve flight anywhere near Vancouver, and so going to an Air Cadet squadron at least gets me in the classroom teaching something I love, which is aviation. 

The current system is not perfect, however I do know that a lot of Civvi U people do choose to work with reserves and cadets when they can. The options are different, and people go into RMC and Civvi U with the forces for different reasons. The way the training ends up working out, having a Civvi U student wouldn't be much different than a DEO applicant. The only difference is that summer training is meshed in with school, and school is paid for, rather than having all training after school is over.


----------



## chris_log

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Piper, above is a quote you made in another forum. You and I both seem to agree that there isn't enough 'military stuff' occuring during the year for Civie U ROTP cadets?  Isn't the reserve option better than nothing then?  We both agree that it's a good idea.  You and I both seem to disagree on implementation due to differences in classification or environment... which we are both entitled to our opinions.  You think there's little value to this whereas I think there's value to learning more about 'officership' regardless of classification or environment.  Some of the 'military stuff' you mentioned RMC cadets do such as "drill, ruck marches, and range days' are all done at the reserve units regardless of environment (even the naval reserve is getting into the ruck marches with training for the BFT).  I think the opportunity to volunteer at cadet units is a great one but the disadvantage would be that the CIC world is, IMO, quite different from the rest of the CF world.  I think that the opportunity for classroom instruction, drill, and uniform maintenance can also be done at the reserve unit level with junior NCM's or new officers, especially if shadowing a platoon officer as a 2IC.



RMC and parading with a reserve unit are different. My post was not about just 'military stuff', but rather the whole RMC 'package'.

Young, relatively untrained officer cadets have no business instructing reserve NCM's. In fact, in 'Mo units most of the instructing is done by the vastly better experienced Sgt's, WO's etc. I ask you, what can an OCdt teach at a reserve unit? Drill? Nope, that's what the CSM does. Weapons? Nope, many OCdt's are only C7 qualified, some are C9 and pistol qualified and a few (infantry and other cbt arms types) are qualified on the C6, Carl G etc. And again, there are better qualified people at the unit to teach. A reserve unit exists to train soldiers, not to serve as a training ground for officer cadets. 

Reserve units don't need to be burden with OCdt's. If they want to take them on, that's THEIR decision because, like I said before, they exist to train soldiers. The soldiers don't exist as training aids for officer cadets. OCdt's at civvie are to be neither seen or heard. We're supposed to go to school, stay out of trouble and show up for summer training. Like my post you referenced, my ideal army would see all ROTP officers go through a military college, but we can't do that anymore. Civvie-u is basically an 'outsourcing' of military officer education, just like we outsource alot of driver training and base services. 

Oh, on a slightly related note....what naval reserve units do ruck marches to pass the BFT (which is an Army-only, or posted to an army unit, test)? None of the naval reservists I know have rucks or any other field kit (I can't imagine rucking in sea boots). 

Just to get an idea of whom I'm talking to, are you an ROTP type yourself?


----------



## Snakedoc

Hello Everyone, sorry for the late reply but I have been REALLY busy the past month!

To answer Piper's question, I am not an ROTP type but a reserve officer who has done school and reserves concurrently in the past.  I also know several ROTP types who parade on ships and are outstanding cadets.  I also know ROTP types who could be parading at a unit in their environment and classification but simply don't do so because they don't have to or don't want to.

I know of naval reserve units experimenting with the BFT.  For example at my unit, we do not have the proper equipment but we improvise and ensure that we do it with the 50 pound weights etc. on practice runs.  Then the plan I believe is to do it with our local army unit for the actual thing to ensure it is properly recognized.  This is of course something new.

Though I don't oppose officer cadets teaching at a cadet unit, maybe in the first year or two before they are basic trained (though the same argument can be made about what an officer cadet who doesn't have basic can teach cadets especially when they have their own cadet NCO's who have been in for 3-4 years, taken cadet courses, and teaching), but I still think the reserve world is closer to the type of environment officer cadets will be working in compared to the CIC environment of the cadet world.  In terms of teaching NCMs at a reserve unit, what I am thinking of is that this is not a regular thing.  Rather something where OCdts teach on an assigned special topics lecture (ie something that needs to be researched like a topic in naval history) at least once during the year to a group of people (junior NCM privates for example or their own group of junior officers) as a training tool to develop their presentation and teaching skills.  However I don't think this component should be the main focus, rather the focus should be on shadowing a platoon/divisional officer and learning aspects of their job, especially the PER process and the basics to military administration which will be a key component to your careers as commissioned officers.

I'd say ROTP is not that different from the Reserve Officer Entry Plan (designed for people still in school) in terms of how training is structured (training in the summers) except that the reserve officers are required to parade at their respective units and ROTP officers are not required to do so.  Difference between ROTP and DEO is not only the fact DEO has training meshed together and ROTP has their school paid for, but also the fact that ROTP members are part of the military during their school years and are thus being paid a salary to go to school and earning pensionable years.  I think situations like what Intelligent_Design mentioned of not having done anything 'military' in an entire year except for a few admin things is something that is really tough for many people to read.  In the case mentioned about not having an Air flight anywhere near, i think compromise in working at a air cadet unit is acceptable for now at least.  I think the goal really is to make sure all ROTP types are at least doing something military during the school year IMO.  Of course what I have mentioned are just my ideas and food for thought


----------



## chris_log

It's a good idea, but like I said before it's not workable. 

My main points;

1) There are schools without nearby reserve units. Are we going to make some people parade and some not? We can't restrict where they go to school, you get accepted into ROTP and then they ask you where you plan on attending school (thats what happened to me). 
2) Many reserve units are 'resource constrained' and need to focus limited resources on THEIR troops. 
3) ROTP types would not really be a part of the unit, and OCDT's that actually belong to the unit would be given preference etc for training, resources etc.
4) Reserve units don't need a bunch of young officers, there aren't that many reserve officer positions in the first place. What would we do, place the ROTP OCDT's into NCM positions for which few if any of them are trained?

I like how it is now, if we want to, we can. That way, reserve units aren't innundated with people they don't need and ROTP types can explore other options (working with a Cadet unit, for example).


----------



## Lumber

How about we just open up another MilCol and send all O/NCdts to MilCol's and none to Civi-U? Seems like a good idea to me.

TDV


----------



## chris_log

Lumber said:
			
		

> How about we just open up another MilCol and send all O/NCdts to MilCol's and none to Civi-U? Seems like a good idea to me.
> 
> TDV



Then we loose all the people who would apply to ROTP when they're already attending a school.

Also, it's not cost effective. Military Colleges are expensive to operate, it's much easier and cheaper to 'outsource' education to civilian schools. There are other more pressing priorities then another charm school.

The current system works just fine, those who want to go to a military college and have all the stuff associated with that can go there, and those who would rather attend a normal school can go there as well. Either way, the CF ends up with a degreed officer with a range of experiences and skills (RMC kids experience different things then civvie-u kids, a vice versa). Despite an old post of mine indicating that RMC may have, in retrospect, been better for me I do not believe that we should to away with the civvie-u stream entirely. Both have their uses. If there wasn't a civvie-u stream, I wouldn't be in ROTP right now (because there is no way that I would have gone to RMC three and a bit years ago, not a chance).


----------



## Command-Sense-Act 105

Folks,

Officers (Res and Reg) do much much more than deliver training - I think your discussion is a little one-sided.  Piper, you make good points about what OCdts should and shouldn't do - for example, weapons, drill, etc - that's a no-no.  In fact to expand on your point, officers should not be teaching very many subjects, particularly not to NCOs, during the course of a unit's training cycle.

However, one area that you are forgetting is that other, less-glamorous yet more important area that many officers find themselves employed in - administering the troops.  I don't care if you are a combat arms officer, logistics, EME, Sigs, Mars, AERE, whatever - if you are an officer whose occupation deals with soldiers, sailors or air force troops you will get sucked into doing administration.  No matter what kind of operational guru, "only a field guy", sea dog, whatever, you fancy yourself, at some times, the Admin Bell tolls for thee.

From what I've seen, most new Army officers arrive at their units well-trained to do their basic jobs by the various schools - tactics, replenishment, whatever it is.  However, they arrive completely unaware of some of the back-end admin pieces they will have to know to take care of their people.  That becomes a steep learning curve and one where Coy/Sqn/Bty 2ICs get to pull their hair out and do much much teaching to get the new officers' admin wired tight enough to take care of their troops.

When I was posted to a Res unit, I would have welcomed a couple civvy-u ROTP officer cadets parading with the unit - they could have learned a few things about the Army, they could have paraded when their class schedule permitted (ie coming in during the day to give the day staff a hand) and they could have been another couple fairly computer-literate, reasonably educated folks who could give a hand with the admin and learn a few things themselves that would stand them in good stead further in their careers.

There is more to service as an officer than just training and many ways in which, as a leader, you have to take care of your people outside of a field or operational setting.

My 2 cents.


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## chris_log

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> Folks,
> 
> Officers (Res and Reg) do much much more than deliver training - I think your discussion is a little one-sided.  Piper, you make good points about what OCdts should and shouldn't do - for example, weapons, drill, etc - that's a no-no.  In fact to expand on your point, officers should not be teaching very many subjects, particularly not to NCOs, during the course of a unit's training cycle.
> 
> However, one area that you are forgetting is that other, less-glamorous yet more important area that many officers find themselves employed in - administering the troops.  I don't care if you are a combat arms officer, logistics, EME, Sigs, Mars, AERE, whatever - if you are an officer whose occupation deals with soldiers, sailors or air force troops you will get sucked into doing administration.  No matter what kind of operational guru, "only a field guy", sea dog, whatever, you fancy yourself, at some times, the Admin Bell tolls for thee.
> 
> From what I've seen, most new Army officers arrive at their units well-trained to do their basic jobs by the various schools - tactics, replenishment, whatever it is.  However, they arrive completely unaware of some of the back-end admin pieces they will have to know to take care of their people.  That becomes a steep learning curve and one where Coy/Sqn/Bty 2ICs get to pull their hair out and do much much teaching to get the new officers' admin wired tight enough to take care of their troops.
> 
> When I was posted to a Res unit, I would have welcomed a couple civvy-u ROTP officer cadets parading with the unit - they could have learned a few things about the Army, they could have paraded when their class schedule permitted (ie coming in during the day to give the day staff a hand) and they could have been another couple fairly computer-literate, reasonably educated folks who could give a hand with the admin and learn a few things themselves that would stand them in good stead further in their careers.
> 
> There is more to service as an officer than just training and many ways in which, as a leader, you have to take care of your people outside of a field or operational setting.
> 
> My 2 cents.



You are 110% correct. I think I got a little hung up on the 'training' aspect because I kept harping on OCdt's lack of training (not experience per se, although they lack that too, but basic training...most OCdt's are at best half or two-thirds trained when they graduate). My points may have gotten a little muddled. 

Now, I agree entirely with you that a reserve unit would be a good place for a young 'un to learn the ropes of basic admin. However, how many is enough? Let's take 11 Field Reg't RCA in Guelph. They are a smaller unit and there are around 15 or so ROTP types going to Moo-U. I know that 2 of the ROTP kids parade with them, however, could they handle all 15 of them? It's the only game in town for the CF, and the next nearest PRes units are in Hamilton or the Tri-cities. I still think it's unworkable to force ROTP types to parade with reserve units, there just isn't enough work to properly employ OCdt's in a meaningful (that being key) capacity.

I feel that the best way for ROTP kids to experience the CF is to find useful, meaningful OJT/EWAT opportunities for them in the summer as opposed to sticking them in a CFRC to make coffee while they wait for a course (which is the norm).


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## chris_log

CSA 105 said:
			
		

> True.  As for capacity, there are more availabilities than just reserve units.  For example, there are the various CBG HQs in Ontario (31 in London, 32 in Toronto, 33 in Ottawa) plus LFCA HQ in Toronto, LFCA TC Meaford, various CBG Battle Schools, etc.  In terms of opportunities, there are more organizations out there that could share the load than just the units



Agreed. I could be done. But now we need to ask, how do we go about it? I don't believe the various HQ's have anything more then a skeletal staff around at night (when students can realistically participate, due to classes etc). There's no school close to Meaford (or any training centres at all), ditto to the battle schools. And I know that I'm sure as heck not going to commute up to Meaford from Guelph a couple times a week. It's a good idea, but not a viable or workable idea. 



> While waiting courses, sticking them in CFRCs is wrong - there are many other places where they could learn things.  Sounds like *laziness on the part of the ULO staff * in not finding decent positions for these folks to work and learn.



Partially true. ULO staffs are overworked, understaffed and it is hard to find positions for ROTP types for one very big reason. MONEY. We're required to go on EWAT when we have time before/in between courses and annual leave. However, no one is willing to pay for our R&Q to send us somewhere meaningful. So, we either get stuck polishing trophies at a museum or making coffee at a CFRC or local unit OR or have to find our own opportunities close to where a family member lives so that we can stay there at no cost. There is no budget for EWAT/OJT for ROTP (with the exception of certain classifications that have little or no 'formal' courses and much of the training is done as OJT, or who don't send troops on Phase training before they graduate). I've personally tried some novel ways to get 'funded' to go away for OJT, but all came to naught (I had a great summer of OJT regardless, thankfully I have parent's who live close to a major CF 'area').


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## Command-Sense-Act 105

Piper said:
			
		

> Agreed. I could be done. But now we need to ask, how do we go about it? I don't believe the various HQ's have anything more then a skeletal staff around at night


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## Lumber

Piper said:
			
		

> However, no one is willing to pay for our R&Q to send us somewhere meaningful.



I pay R&Q for the majority of the year. Can't you pay for it while on OJT?


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## chris_log

Lumber said:
			
		

> I pay R&Q for the majority of the year. Can't you pay for it while on OJT?



So,

You want me to pay for rent on my place at school, plus R&Q for wherever I'm at (either on base or on the economy)  :. No way, I ain't paying for two places at once. Remember, I pay for a place all year long whereas you kids move out of your rooms after the school year ends. You've gotta remember that RMC and the rest of the world work differently. I can't sign 8 month leases here and it sucks moving in and out every school year (it's stupid too). I get my R&Q paid for in the summer because I already have a place that I'm paying for, therefore I am considered to be on TD from my permanent place of work (my school) and get all the associated costs paid for. You RMC kids do (or at least should, if you don't, there's a major problem) be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for. 



> There are Class A reservists in all of these HQs, so each usually has a parade night in addition to the daily activities - IIRC 32 CBG's used to be Tuesday.  In terms of going to Meaford from Guelph, for example, would it be workable for you if you were placed on TD or given the same travel allowance that reservists are entitled to when they live far away from their unit and drive or commute in to parade?



Really? I never knew that. As for my Meaford comment, it's 2-3 hours for me to get there, minimum. Probably closer to 3. Now, are we talking about working there in the summer on OJT/EWAT or as a weeknight thingy a la a PRes unit. If it's the former, sure I'd do it if I get the associated TD and travel reimbursement. If the latter, then no. 



> 31 and 32 CBG used to each run their own battle schools in Toronto and London.  They were an organizational body which oversaw the staff running in-house JLC (PLQ now) and weekend Basic, QL3 and other entry-level individual training courses - course staff were drawn from across the CBG, but the Battle School's small staff oversaw everything, conducted ln, ops, admin functions and maintained the Standards Cell.  They also paraded at night, plus some of these courses also used to have a parade/training night where the course staff and students would all train at one armouries or another.  Not sure if this is still the case



Ack. But again, what could an OCdt contribute beyond being a poorly admin clerk? My point is that forcing civvie-u types to parade is a good idea, but unworkable with the numbers, lack of experience etc. 



> Not sure what EWAT is.  To add to the difficulty, while on the SUTL (all ROTP fall under the Subsidised University Training List) , BTL, ATL or other training employment, I believe you fall under Chief Military Personnel, not the Army.  This of course generates problems because while the Army may want you, have jobs for you, etc, there is a bureuacratic firewall in that you don't 'belong' to the Army.  Funny that you mention money, though, because systemically the money is there, particularly for things that rectify individual training problems... the RFT and PAT/PAR resolution by posting them to OJT at units being a couple examples.



EWAT = Employment While Awaiting Training

And what you describe is the exact problem. When trying to set up an across-country EWAT job for myself, I found orgs (like the unit getting me) willing to pay my TD, R&Q etc but were unable to as I didn't belong to them, the brigade, the area or even the Army. I tried various options, such as asking if the Log Branch itself would fund it (considering it was a golden opportunity for training). All to naught as I belonged to CMP and they were unwilling (and unable) to pay for me nor approve an 'outside' org paying either. The money is there, but it is a matter of who belongs to who. 

My solution was simply to go on OJT in an area where I could stay with my parents. It worked, and it was an excellent experience. The system needs work, but again, to go back to my original point, making it easier for legions of untrained and often dopey OCdt's to descend on units could cause problems as well (imagine the deluge of EWAT requests that CANSOFCOM would get each summer). The current system works if you're motivated and able to find employment yourself. As with many things in the CF (pay, uniforms, kit etc) EWAT/OJT for ROTP is something that cannot be left to the big green machine, you have to do most of the legwork yourself.


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## George Wallace

Piper said:
			
		

> You want me to pay for rent on my place at school, plus R&Q for wherever I'm at (either on base or on the economy)  :. No way, I ain't paying for two places at once. Remember, I pay for a place all year long whereas you kids move out of your rooms after the school year ends. You've gotta remember that RMC and the rest of the world work differently. I can't sign 8 month leases here and it sucks moving in and out every school year (it's stupid too). I get my R&Q paid for in the summer because I already have a place that I'm paying for, therefore I am considered to be on TD from my permanent place of work (my school) and get all the associated costs paid for. You RMC kids do (or at least should, if you don't, there's a major problem) be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for.



You may want to edit that.  It doesn't make sense.

As for 12 month lease, you are one of a very small majority minority of university students who is doing this.  Most, unless living with their parents, only lease for the school year, as they will have to pay rent, etc. wherever they find employment.


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## benny88

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You may want to edit that.  It doesn't make sense.
> 
> As for 12 month lease, you are one of a very small majority  of university students who is doing this.  Most, unless living with their parents, only lease for the school year, as they will have to pay rent, etc. wherever they find employment.



This isn't meant to be smarmy, but is that a typo? 12 month leases are by far more popular, at least in London. I've only heard of an 8 month lease once or twice.



Edit: That does sound smarmy, sorry. Just looking for clarification.


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## George Wallace

Yup.....must have been a vocal minority posing as a majority...  ;D




We could get into the economics practiced by most university students in their habits of renting residence where they study and then where they find summer employment, but it may be detracting from the current subject, other than pointing out that the CF doesn't make you pay for R&Q in two locations at the same time.  Civilians don't have that advantage; they either pay for two, or let one go and spend time finding another apartment each school year.


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## chris_log

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You may want to edit that.  It doesn't make sense.
> 
> As for 12 month lease, you are one of a very small majority minority of university students who is doing this.  Most, unless living with their parents, only lease for the school year, as they will have to pay rent, etc. wherever they find employment.



News to me, 12 month leases are the norm these days. It's not like you have a choice, you need a place to live and landlords exploit that. I know that in Windsor, London, Tri-cities, Guelph, Hamilton, Toronto et al 12 month leases are the norm in student areas...the only exception being university residences which have semester by semester contracts. Maybe it was different in your day, but not now. At least not in Ontario. And regardless, I'm not moving in and out at the beginning and end of every school year for four years, thats stupid. 

As for my comment you suggested I edit, I'm not sure how to better word it. RMC kids don't pay R&Q at RMC during the summer (unless they stay there for whatever reason). It's my understanding that they get new rooms every semester. Therefore, RMC kids SHOULD be paying R&Q at St Jean, Gagetown, Borden etc because they aren't paying it elsewhere...unlike myself who, during the summer, has to pay rent at home.


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## George Wallace

"You RMC kids do (_____) be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for." doesn't make sense.



OK.  I see my problem:

"You RMC kids do, or at least should (if you don't, there's a major problem), be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for."


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## Lumber

Piper said:
			
		

> You RMC kids do (or at least should, if you don't, there's a major problem) be paying R&Q when you're away on summer taskings because you don't maintain a permanent place of residence during the summer that you have to pay for.



We pay for quarters but not rations during our summer training. However, we pay the same amount that we were paying at RMC. Now, this is kind of ridiculous because the cost of rooms is different depending on which barracks you live in at RMC. The Stone Frigate, for example, is more expensive than living in Champlain or Sauvé. So, even though me and my fellow RMC *cadets* (I'm sure the 25 and 26 years old's in my division would object to you referring to them as kids, Mr. Piper) were living in the same building at NOTC Venture in Victoria, we were paying a different price for our rooms. 



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> So,
> 
> You want me to pay for rent on my place at school, plus R&Q for wherever I'm at (either on base or on the economy)  :. No way, I ain't paying for two places at once. Remember, I pay for a place all year long whereas you kids move out of your rooms after the school year ends.



Sure, while you're on course or on OJT, sublet your apartment out and use the money to pay for Quarter's on OJT, or as GW said, get an 8 month lease. Many of the fourth years who have been given the privileged of living off have 8 month leases. I haven't had to go through the effort of trying obtain a lease on an apartment, let alone an 8 month lease, so I can't say how hard it is. But if you are as eager to be able to afford going on OJT as you seem to be, then I think you could put fourth the extra time and effort to secure an 8 month lease.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105

OK troops, this "RMC vs Civvy U" bullshit is getting old, as is the current rent/lease/R&Q pissing contest.

Back on track, please.

*The Army.ca Staff*


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## Snakedoc

Just to clarify my earlier comment about O/NCdt's teaching at reserve units, I meant this purely for occasional use as a training tool for cadets and not a replacement for the teaching NCO's do.  Rather the focus for ROTP cadets at reserve units IMO should be on learning the admin aspects of being an officer, acting as 2IC's for divisonal/platoon officers, learning and participating in the military culture, and if possible, learning along with other reserve officers aspects of their classification in preparation for future training.

I think many options have been presented that show there are many possibilities for ROTP cadets to participate in the military during the school year.  Though I think its great that some ROTP cadets voluntarily participate during the year, there are still many that do not participate when they can.  Some on this forum have stated that ROTP cadets should primarily only be responsible for going to their civilian schools and not participating in the military during the academic year.  This despite the fact that they are full time members of the reg force military and are paid by the Crown to go to their civilian schools while reservists make this committment during the year and are also able to juggle going to their civilian schools but are not paid full time to do this.  Unless ROTP cadets who are able to participate are required to do so in a reasonable manner (and fairly compensated to do so for things like travel costs), many ROTP cadets will not do so and therefore the Crown is not getting the maximum return for the salary that is paid to ROTP cadets in turning them into capable commissioned officers at graduation.


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## chris_log

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Just to clarify my earlier comment about O/NCdt's teaching at reserve units, I meant this purely for occasional use as a training tool for cadets and not a replacement for the teaching NCO's do.  Rather the focus for ROTP cadets at reserve units IMO should be on learning the admin aspects of being an officer, acting as 2IC's for divisonal/platoon officers, learning and participating in the military culture, and if possible, learning along with other reserve officers aspects of their classification in preparation for future training.
> 
> I think many options have been presented that show there are many possibilities for ROTP cadets to participate in the military during the school year.  Though I think its great that some ROTP cadets voluntarily participate during the year, there are still many that do not participate when they can.  Some on this forum have stated that ROTP cadets should primarily only be responsible for going to their civilian schools and not participating in the military during the academic year.  This despite the fact that they are full time members of the reg force military and are paid by the Crown to go to their civilian schools while reservists make this committment during the year and are also able to juggle going to their civilian schools but are not paid full time to do this.  Unless ROTP cadets who are able to participate are required to do so in a reasonable manner (and fairly compensated to do so for things like travel costs), many ROTP cadets will not do so and therefore the Crown is not getting the maximum return for the salary that is paid to ROTP cadets in turning them into capable commissioned officers at graduation.



And I'm arguing that forcing large numbers of untrained OCdt's on units is NOT getting the 'maximum return' for the salary that is being paid. Reservists don't get paid to go to school, but they also don't get posted...don't have to dedicated X number of years afterwards etc etc. You give a little and take a little in either route you choose to take.

I think it's a great idea to get ROTP kids attending civvie-u to train during the year (if I had a meaningful, useful job, I'd happily do it). However, I am still no convinced how it can be made to work. You provide arguments ad nauseum as to WHY it should be done, how about some explaining HOW (beyond your basic idea of 'making' them go to a reserve unit in the evenings). Imagine your HMCS getting 15-20 untrained ROTP types each year....are you telling me you could find viable, useful and meaningful work for all of them(army, navy and air force)? Somehow I doubt. 

I don't disagree with the fact that it's a good idea, but it's unworkable. If it was workable, I'm sure the CF would have us do it (as I would venture to suggest that many, many people before you have expressed the same dissatisfaction with the idea of CF members going to school and not doing anything 'military' while they're there. 



> Sure, while you're on course or on OJT, sublet your apartment out and use the money to pay for Quarter's on OJT, or as GW said, get an 8 month lease. Many of the fourth years who have been given the privileged of living off have 8 month leases. I haven't had to go through the effort of trying obtain a lease on an apartment, let alone an 8 month lease, so I can't say how hard it is. But if you are as eager to be able to afford going on OJT as you seem to be, then I think you could put fourth the extra time and effort to secure an 8 month lease.


  

By your own admission, you know nothing about renting places. Just a bit of advice, never sublet unless you know the person very well. I've seen lots of subletting disasters occur and I would never do it. I'm also not going to seek out 8 month leases just so I can go on OJT, it's the CF's responsibility to pay for me to do what they want me to do, not me. Either way, I found an ingenious way to go on an excellent EWAT position for free. It's called Hotel Mommy and Daddy.  ;D Anyways, I'm done with this tangent. CSA 105 is right, it's silly. I just wanted to get my point across (I'm not trying to make it into a pissing contest, just showing how R&Q policies etc work differently for RMC vs Civvie-U kids and the affect that can have on summer employment). 


Like I said above, I'm not opposed to ROTP types going on military trg during the year (and I believe some OCdt's in Ottawa, for example, take advantage of CFSU (O) sanctioned range days, defensive driving courses, NBCD refreshers etc). But the problem occurs with ROTP kids outside and away from major bases/units and it's not fair to push them on reserve units who are now forced to employ large numbers of OCdt's who are not properly trained to do many of meaningful things (beyond being a human coffee makers and RMS clerk assistant, the very jobs that OCdt's both RMC and Civvie-U alike are slotted into during summer EWAT/OJT and that we can all agree are a waste of time).


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## dapaterson

As a person in a position of some responsibility with more admin to do than Tuesday nights to accomplish it (and weekday lunches, and weekends where my wife would sometimes like to see me) having an extra OCdt or two to supervise and task with some of the work would be a godsend.  

If many Reserve offiers can manage part-time Reserve service with full-time school, I don't see why an ROTP student couldn't as well.

Done properly, it could relieve some fo the admin burden on Reserve units, provide some hands-on experience for the ROTP students, and help build Reg/Res bridges.  Mind you, done poorly, it would just waste everyone's time.


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## George Wallace

dapaterson said:
			
		

> As a person in a position of some responsibility with more admin to do than Tuesday nights to accomplish it (and weekday lunches, and weekends where my wife would sometimes like to see me) having an extra OCdt or two to supervise and task with some of the work would be a godsend.
> 
> If many Reserve offiers can manage part-time Reserve service with full-time school, I don't see why an ROTP student couldn't as well.
> 
> Done properly, it could relieve some fo the admin burden on Reserve units, provide some hands-on experience for the ROTP students, and help build Reg/Res bridges.  Mind you, done poorly, it would just waste everyone's time.



That being said, what would you have an OCdt with no 'Training' do that would be productive for the Unit?  Other than giving you a hand with some of your paperwork, and as a gopher, where would you employ them?  They can't instruct.  They can't do Administrative work in the OR other than the minimal photocopy and filing tasks that they would be 'Cleared' to do.  Would they be cleared to handle Classified Docs?  If not that would preclude them from handling any Pers Files, or more sensitive docs.   Would they need maximum supervision, in effect taking a member of the Unit away from their job and in effect reducing productivity?   These are only some of the questions that a Reserve CO may be forced to ask him/herself.


----------



## chris_log

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That being said, what would you have an OCdt with no 'Training' do that would be productive for the Unit?  Other than giving you a hand with some of your paperwork, and as a gopher, where would you employ them?  They can't instruct.  They can't do Administrative work in the OR other than the minimal photocopy and filing tasks that they would be 'Cleared' to do.  Would they be cleared to handle Classified Docs?  If not that would preclude them from handling any Pers Files, or more sensitive docs.   Would they need maximum supervision, in effect taking a member of the Unit away from their job and in effect reducing productivity?   These are only some of the questions that a Reserve CO may be forced to ask him/herself.



I believe a number (if not all) ROTP types are cleared 'Secret' and are able to handle the associated classifications and 'protected' levels for files. 



I'm not against the idea of ROTP candidates parading/working during the year at a unit/HQ/whatever. And I know that an extra set of hands (although maybe not multiple extra sets of hands) are usually appreciated. But the idea is making it work and finding meaningful work. Just sticking OCdt's into infantry sections in a 'Mo unit isn't going to do anyone any good. And OR's are busy enough and I feel like it would almost be counter-productive having someone untrained bumping around getting in the way. 

The problem I see is that 'Mo units are usually small and almost 'operational', in a way. The OR is always busy with 'real' work and are usually understaffed, which means taking time to explain and train a bunch of OCdt's would be a waste. Ditto to the infantry sections etc, they are busy training their own trained soldiers and don't have time to teach the basics to OCdt's (who at best are versed in section level tactics, usually when they are fully trained in platoon level stuff they are already done school) as well as incorporate them into the sections/platoons etc. I'm speaking from a very Army perspective, but I would guess the same rings true for the Navy and Air Reserve.

Thats why we have a training system, 'recruit' platoons in reserve units etc. People stay in those until they are fully trained and then join a unit when they have that basic level of experience. I know for a fact that reserve Pte's are only able to really start participating in their unit when they are  BMQ/SQ qualified and even then, they need their BIQ course to really function fully as a member of the unit. Ditto to any of the trades. 

When I was on OJT, I was lucky to have some great guys to work with. BUT, they still had to take time away from their very busy schedules to get me up to speed. Imagine that times 5, 10, 15...etc when you get a whole bunch of OCdt's running around a unit.

Things are best the way they are. If you feel like you're being shortchanged (which Snakedoc is starting to sound like to me) or that we're getting an unfai deal, join ROTP with the associated obligations and benefits. It is what it is, ROTP candidate's job (RMC and Civvie-U) is to go to school. RMC merely appears more 'military' because they wear uniforms, live in shacks and have access to a large base nearby with the associated benefits (range days and the like). Civvie-U exists to tap into the base of people who want to be CF officers, but don't want/can't attend RMC. I personally don't need to go fuddle around my local 'Mo unit once a week and one weekend a month (there's not an insult, before anyone gets all heated, I used to be a reservist) to remind myself I'm in the CF. 

I know of people who tried to parade with their local unit and either couldn't or left soon after they started because there was no work for them to do....and some who paraded quite successfully (I know of one who was an 'Assisstant Course Officer' on a weekend BMQ). It depends on the unit and what they are willing to provide, not what they can force out because they have to. 

I'm not arguing against this because I don't want to do 'army' stuff during the year, I argue against it because I don't want to be a burden to someone else.


----------



## Drag

I agree with Piper.  Keep the system the way it is now.  I was a ROTP civi-U type and for me as a CELE officer parading with a militia unit would have provided minimal "value added content" from what I learned during training.  While I was in school, we had OCdts parading with militia units by choice.  They were mostly combat arms types or ex-members of those units and could contribute much more to the unit that parachuting in a bunch of aspiring MARS officers, doctors, nurses, dentists or pilots.  Our number one job during the year was to go to school.  I was in an engineering program that was pretty time intensive and had several reservist in my year....  Guess what, regular parading and duties with the unit interfeared with school.  A few went on ED&T during the school year, one went NES.  One just got his leaf so he tried to attend all the parades and Exs during the year, along with teaching BMQ every weekend, and you could see it effecting his school performance.  Eventually he took a reduced course load because he could not cope and it took him 6 years to graduate from a 4 year program, something an ROTP student could not do.

In the summers the ULO would send us on EWAT to local units.  Not having other training other than IAP and BOTP that I could take over the period of one summer, I spent quite a bit of time on EWAT, usually with about 5-6 other OCdts and found that often our supervisors would be scratching their head on how to keep us effectively employed.  

On the subject of leases:  My university of 20 000 students had about 1000 spots in residence, so it was not really an option.  I had to rent on the economy downtown Toronto and I did not find a single apartment that offered school year leases.  My rent alone was more than I would be paying for R&Q at RMC.  My first year of subsidy we did pay Rations in St Jean and it was a rough 2 months financially $700/ month for my apartment + $400 for rations, does not leave and OCdt much, even with Toronto PLD.


----------



## Gunner_Askett

First I'd like to say that I did a search and didn't find an answer to my question. 

Right now I'm in grade 11 and we just did course selections for next year.  I've wanted to go to RMC for as long as I have been thinking about post-secondary education.  Though, I'm not sure whether I should go for a fifth year of high school or not.  I plan on applying in the engineering department and I know that I need certain courses, like Calculus, to be accepted.  My main question is, Would I be more likely to be accepted if I took all the required courses and applied in grade 12 as opposed to spreading them out and applying in a fifth year?

The courses I have selected for grade 12 are: 
English
French
Advanced Functions
Calculus and Vectors
Physics
Chemisty
World History
*All University Level Courses*

To me, that looks like it will be a very heavy workload with only one spare.  I also am in the Reserves and will probably be doing my BMQ this fall on the weekend course.  If I go for a fifth year I will probably be able to do the first summer course at Gagetown (combat engineer) which I wouldn't be able to do if I applied for RMC during grade 12.  I know attending and graduating from RMC would be my primary career goal so the reserve training is less important but I feel it would be useful to have taken at least one summer of combat engineer training as a Non Commissioned Member because one of the careers I am considering is combat engineer officer.

It would be great to get a response/responses from people who have been accepted to RMC after taking a fifth year or those who are involved in the acceptance process.

Thanks


----------



## Magic

If you really want in the RMC I suggest you finish your courses now and not prolong it. If you think six grade 12 U courses in one year is hard, wait till you get into your post secondary studies, especially engineering. You won't be able to take an extra year to relieve the work load. 

good luck


----------



## Gunner_Askett

Just because something is hard or a heavy workload doesn't mean it is impossible.  You can consider something difficult but still be up to the challenge.  I thank you for your advice though, I am leaning towards applying in grade 12 but there are just a couple things that would make me consider taking the fifth year.  One being my dad, who seems to think it would be best for me but I do disagree with him on this.  Again, thank you for your advice.


----------



## Lumber

Gunner_Askett said:
			
		

> It would be great to get a response/responses from people who have been accepted to RMC after taking a fifth year or those who are involved in the acceptance process.



That's me! I graduated highschool in 2005, and even though I had all the prerequisites and grades to go to just about any school in Canada, I decided to stay back for an extra semester, or  "victory lap", of highschool. 

With the crowd of kids I hung out with in Highschool, not many of my friends actually graduated on time, so I got to hang out with them. Further, I got to play an extra and final season of football. I knew I didn't have the size to play University ball, and if I got into RMC they don't have football at all. 

Finally, and most importantly, since in grade 12 I took university level science and math (as these were prerequisites for many of the programs I was considering) I was then free to take grade 12 university level "arts" courses such as Law and Social studies. I found theses courses to be unbelievably easy, and the marks I received in them greatly increased my application average.

The point I'm trying to get across here is that you don't need to rush things. After my one semester "victory lap" I worked full time in order to save money for school (in case I didn't get accepted into ROTP). When I did get accepted, all that money I'd saved up was a real bonus. (speaking of which... where the hell did it all go?... :cheers 

I did not feel "left behind" by taking an extra year, and when I finally made my application choices I was a lot more sure of what I wanted to do with my life.



			
				Gunner_Askett said:
			
		

> My main question is, Would I be more likely to be accepted if I took all the required courses and applied in grade 12 as opposed to spreading them out and applying in a fifth year?



Well, I don't actually know what the recruiters think, or if they have some policy of giving more points to those who "do it all" in 4 years instead of 5, but when my recruiter looked at my transcripts all he though was, "highschool student" and "good grades".

Also, you'll get to RMC and probably be drinking age. That was definitely a helper in first year


----------



## benny88

Having gone to university after 5 years of high school, and after having some EWAT in a recruiting centre, I can say pretty confidently that it's not an issue in the recruiting process. As Lumber said, your marks will potentially be better, and you will be 19 when you go away to school. I also thought it was an advantage because I was bigger, faster, stronger, and more mature when I went away to training.

To each his (or her) own, but for me it worked out better. I know you were asking about RMC, but ROTP is ROTP in some respects. Cheers.


----------



## Magic

I am 22 and going to Uni now. I decided to go to college after high school but quickly decided the program was not for me. Worked for a few years and here I am. 

My biggest regret was not applying myself in high school to go straight into university right after. I would have been done by now ! 

What ever you choose will work out if you are determined.


----------



## Lumber

Magic said:
			
		

> My biggest regret was not applying myself in high school to go straight into university right after. I would have been done by now !



Fair enough, and I actually agree, but one year isn't going to hurt you (or him rather).


----------



## Pelorus

I would probably recommend doing it all in 4 years, mainly as a way to prepare yourself for the workload of a university level engineering program.

I am in science as opposed to engineering, however I have a lot of friends in engineering, and they work their butts off.  The workload of U-level high school courses is a joke compared to the engineering programs out there.  If you can't take 7 or 8 12U courses and get grades high enough to get you into university, I would be concerned about your ability to succeed in the program.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Lumber

boot12 said:
			
		

> I would probably recommend doing it all in 4 years, mainly as a way to prepare yourself for the workload of a university level engineering program.



Even if you did take 7-8 U level courses in grade 12, I'd still recommend considering going back.


----------



## 40below

You'd be crazy not to go back if you have the chance, not only for the reasons outlined above, but to use that extra year to get involved in sports, volunteer work and extracurriculars that are going to greatly enhance your RMC application.


----------



## Gunner_Askett

So you all have good arguments, and my question concerning whether taking a fifth year would make a difference in my likelyhood of being accepted was also answered.  



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> Even if you did take 7-8 U level courses in grade 12, I'd still recommend considering going back.



Thats also a good idea, I could take all the courses I listed above and then take some other courses during my "victory lap" that I could achieve an attractive mark in.  I could also get more involved in extra-curriculars and volunteer work etc.

I'm still not for sure yet, but as long as I take all those courses next year I won't have to decide till application time. ;D


----------



## bms

You could contact the RMC liason or the CFRC and ask if you could get into RMC and do engineering with your current education.

 I asked last year, and the answer I recieved was that you'd go to prep year and get the requisite courses and then into engineering.


----------



## Magic

bms said:
			
		

> You could contact the RMC liason or the CFRC and ask if you could get into RMC and do engineering with your current education.
> 
> I asked last year, and the answer I recieved was that you'd go to prep year and get the requisite courses and then into engineering.



That right there would be a much better route to take. IMHO


----------



## Gunner_Askett

Magic said:
			
		

> That right there would be a much better route to take. IMHO



Do you mean doing the prep-year?  Or just contacting them.  I don't really know what the prep-year is, is it like high-school courses, or introductory university courses, or what?  I'm pretty sure that I would have all the prerequisites after next year if I took the courses I have chosen.  Maybe I'll do some research on what the prep-year is.


----------



## bms

From: http://www.rmc.ca/cu-cn/index-eng.asp


> RMC Liaison Office
> tel: (613) 541-6000 ext. 6984
> or toll-free at 1-866-762-2672



 From: http://navy.ca/wiki/index.php/RMC_Preparatory_Year


> The Royal Military College of Canada's Preparatory Year exists to provide additional academic training for those officer candidates selected under the Regular Officer Training Program who do not have the academic prerequisites for entrance to an Ontario University (of which RMC is one). Other ROTP candidates who do meet the academic prerequisites but have not demonstrated strong academic potential but who are still felt to be superior candidates may also be offered an ROTP Junior enrollment and an initial posting to the Preparatory Year.
> 
> Prep Year is housed at Campus Fort St. Jean on the banks of the Richelieu River in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu, Quebec, approximately 30-45 minutes south-west of Montreal. The site is the former home of Le College Militaire Royale du Canada.



 From: http://www.cmrsj-rmcsj.forces.gc.ca/dep-adc/index-eng.asp


> The first year of college (CEGEP 1) is a preparatory year of pre-university studies. It is equivalent to grade 12 in secondary schools in provinces outside of Quebec. Quebec high school graduates are generally integrated into the Canadian military college system by completing this preparatory year of studies. Applicants from other provinces may be required to complete the preparatory year if they do not have all of the essential prerequisites for direct entry into the first year of university studies at RMCC. Students who successfully complete the preparatory year are automatically admitted to the second year of college (CEGEP 2) at RMC Saint-Jean or to the first year of university (University 1) at RMCC in Kingston.
> 
> The second year of college (CEGEP 2) is equivalent to the first year of university (University 1) in all provinces other than Quebec. High school graduates from outside of Quebec generally enter the Canadian military college system at this level. In addition to holding a high school diploma, applicants to CEGEP 2 and University 1 must possess the necessary prerequisites for the programmes in which they wish to enrol. Quebec students who have successfully completed one year of collegial studies (CEGEP 1) in an appropriate programme may also enter the military college system at this level. Students who successfully complete a second year of college studies at RMC Saint-Jean will subsequently be admitted to the second year of university (University 2) at RMCC in Kingston.


----------



## Amspence

First of all a bit about myself; I'm a retired member of the CAF having served 20 years in the Navy as a Naval Electronics Technician (Communications) MOC 284.  I have been retired since 1997.  My CAF career was personally very rewarding and certainly helped me succeed in subsequent civilian career.  

Tonight I went in search of information on the ROTP program on the net and came across this forum.  I found a lot of interesting reading here and thought that some of you may be able to answer some early questions for me (us).   My daughter in currently finishing her grade 10 year and aspires to apply for the ROTP program, with RMC being her first choice.  Her degree choices have not yet been finalized, but will most certainly be in the Sciences.  And finally she is striving to obtain a career as a Pilot.

Some of the things she has done to prepare herself for this are:

-	Has and continues to participate in Sporting and Physical Fitness activities. EG: completed 5 year Nancy Greene downhill racing program, a further year in the Kinder series racing and finally a year in Freestyle Skiing.  She is presently very involved with her High School track team and has participated weekly for the past 4 years with her Air Cadet Squadron sports nights.
-	Very actively involve with Air Cadets, this being her 4th year.  She has applied for two 6 weeks Scholarship camps this summer, both being held in Ontario.  Her first choice is an Aircraft Maintenance Course and the second choice is an Airport Operations Course.  She completed her boards for both these course in mid February.
-	As an aspiring Pilot, she has taken to the skies early having already soloed and is currently working toward the completion of her Private Pilot’s License requirements.
-	She is currently working in the Aviation industry on the weekends with a local Aviation Company.  Here she does reception, booking, plane rentals, etc.
-	And finally her academic achievements to date.  I couldn’t be more proud as a father.  She maintains excellent marks (last semesters average was 91%).  She is having a bit of trouble with her Math (AP) this semester so we are enlisting the help of a Tudor in this area.  Her mid semester mark is currently at 80% and she is certainly not happy with this.

W have the following questions that some of you out there maybe able to answer for us.  These are:

-	Can she make application for the ROTP program after completion of grade 11?
-	If so, what is the application deadline (She will graduate in June 2011)?
-	It appears from this forum that some applicants have been successful in getting into the Pilot program based on the new vision requirements.  My daughter does wear glasses and is 20:40.  Are there any successful Pilot applicants out there who required vision correction?
-	Any tips of what she might not be doing at the moment that would help her chances of success?

In closing I would like to thank you all for taking your time out to read this and provide any direction you can based on your personal experiences with your applications.

I personally wish each and every one of you young men and ladies every success in your Military Careers.  I am confident you will find the lifestyle challenging but very rewarding.

Many Thanks,

   :yellow: :yellow:  Andrew   :yellow: :yellow:


----------



## Mike Baker

Hi Andrew. You're daughter can apply already if she is 16 years of age or older. (I'm nearly positive on that). So that means the sooner the better to apply, which can get rid of a nice chunk of paperwork. I can't really help on the vision question since I have no idea myself, but I can assure you, she is doing very well so far, and if she continues down the path she is on now, she'll do wonders.


Hope that clears it up a bit more for you.

Cheers
Frosty


----------



## Amspence

Thanks Frosty.  That is information I was not aware of.  We will check this out at the Edmonton office.

Cheers,

Andrew


----------



## Pelorus

As far as beefing up what already looks like a strong application, what does she do as far as volunteer work?  That is a fairly important factor that the selection boards look for.


----------



## benny88

Amspence,

   Sounds like she has a strong app! Has she decided on preference for RMC vice Civvy U?


   A shameless plug for my own program: *http://forums.air-force.ca/forums/threads/71815.0.html*

   I strongly consider her to take a look.


----------



## Amspence

Boot12,

Tks.  Just doesn't seem to be a lot of time in the day.  Most of her volunteer efforts are through the Cadet program (IE: Community cleanup, attending annual events in uniform to clean up, etc.)  We'll work on looking at opportunities in this area.

Andrew


----------



## Amspence

Benny88,

She is intent on attending RMC.  Your link suggests that she can make application to attend Civu (Ontario), get a degree and still further her flying at the same time.  Is this correct.

Tks

Andrew


----------



## benny88

Amspence said:
			
		

> Benny88,
> 
> She is intent on attending RMC.  Your link suggests that she can make application to attend Civu (Ontario), get a degree and still further her flying at the same time.  Is this correct.
> 
> Tks
> 
> Andrew




   Yes. Students in this program earn their PPL (She will be credited for any significant hours already flown provided she can produce an up to date log book) Commercial Pilots License, Multi-Engine rating, and Group 1 instrument rating over the 4 years.
   I won't clutter another thread with my pitches, the docs on the other thread should answer most general questions, post or PM me if you have specific ones they don't address.
   RMC is a good experience and an excellent institution, but I think she would be amiss to not consider other options.

Cheers,
benny


----------



## ACEC

I remember having the same question about recruiting (from an applicants perspective) and I heard about a standards change with regards to vision for aircrew trades.  This is one of the discussions on the topic.

This is a quote from an army.ca forum (sorry, I'm not quite familitar with how to insert a link) its att: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/64089.0.html



> News Release
> New Vision Standards for CF Aircrew Candidates
> Air Force / Force aérienne - NR 07.004 - July 25, 2007
> 
> OTTAWA – Canada’s Air Force has recently approved updated vision standards for aircrew candidates.
> 
> Under the new standards, applicants who wear glasses or contact lenses to provide modest correction to their vision are now eligible for consideration, whereas previously, applicants required uncorrected vision. The decision to adjust the minimum vision standard is based on the findings of a scientific review by a third party contractor with oversight from Defence Research and Development Canada (DRDC).
> 
> “The updated standards are based on scientific measurements that more accurately reflect the reality of operator requirements,” said Chief of Air Staff Medical Advisor, Captain (Navy) Cyd Courchesne. “This is good news for the Canadian Forces as well as for many aircrew candidates, who in the past did not quite meet the previous vision standards.”
> 
> The previous standards were based on a Second World War-era policy that uncorrected vision was necessary to fly combat aircraft, however, this policy was not substantiated by scientific research. It was decided that the vision standard for aircrew candidates should be based on modern scientific testing in order to be as fair and as inclusive as possible to all those desiring to become Canadian Forces aircrew.
> 
> Within the aircrew occupations, the new vision standards have the most impact for prospective pilots. There will be no change in the expected flying performance of pilots because of the adjusted standards.
> 
> Applicants who have had corrective (laser) eye surgery are not eligible for entry into the pilot occupation.
> 
> The Canadian Forces has not had any difficulty attracting pilot applicants in the past several years. In the future, the new vision standard will result in a larger pool of applicants and a more competitive selection process.
> 
> -30-
> 
> For further information, please contact:
> 
> Lieutenant Paul Finnemore
> Air Force Public Affairs
> 613-944-5841


----------



## Radius

With your daughters extracurriculars and grade average, I'm confident she should be quite competitive. I was offered a position in land engineering at RMC for this fall, and I have the same grades, though not nearly as many extracurriculars. However, pilot naturally is more competitive.
Also, she should apply in the fall of her gr. 12 year, and the sooner in the fall the better. I didn't get my papers in untill mid November which was abit tight, thought I was fortunate enough for my application to move quickly, for I still needed to complete the aptitude test, medical, and interview. Pilot will also need the aircrew selection to be completed.
Civilian is an open option as well. Considering both options is wise of course. In my opinion, I don't think I would want to pass up the unique experience of RMC.
Hope this helps.


----------



## chris_log

Tell her to keep her options open and is aware of the benefits/disadvantages of each other (i.e. she may get offered civvie-u and not RMC, which means she would have to decide if she wanted to take the offer or wait until the next year to apply again). Also, have her apply at civvie schools anyways, just in case.

Also, I would suggest that she enroll in the reserves as soon as she can. It gives her a heads up to military life and will give her a head start over people straight off the street when she arrives at RMC. It is also a great PT job and (this is the real bonus) will entitle her to a far higher salary then that of an OCdt (for example, I get Pte pay now which is over double the standard OCdt salary). 

I believe you mentioned she was in cadets, so enrolling in the reserves won't be a time issue (replace cadet nights with parade nights) and IMHO will be more advantageous in the long run then sticking with cadets though to grade 12.


----------



## benny88

Piper said:
			
		

> Also, I would suggest that she enroll in the reserves as soon as she can. It gives her a heads up to military life and will give her a head start over people straight off the street when she arrives at RMC. It is also a great PT job and (this is the real bonus) will entitle her to a far higher salary then that of an OCdt (for example, I get Pte pay now which is over double the standard OCdt salary).



Aha! Something I forgot to mention and something anyone considering joining ROTP should think about very carefully. If I could do it all over again I would have joined the reserves for a while before enrolling in ROTP. The experience will help you on BMOQ, and the pay difference is pretty hefty. This system was probably put in place to protect people with more TI when OT'ing and the like (I imagine fewer people would OT from an established trade and income if they had to take OCdt pay for a couple years while they were trained), rather than a reserve PTE with 1 year joining ROTP, but hey, take advantage of the system, I wish I had.


----------



## westcoastboy

Piper
What is the Pay difference after Tax between a newby ROTP Officer Cadet and a 1-2 yr Reservist ??


----------



## benny88

westcoastboy said:
			
		

> Piper
> What is the Pay difference after Tax between a newby ROTP Officer Cadet and a 1-2 yr Reservist ??



PM inbound re: pay for an ROTP member with no previous experience in case Piper doesn't know the exact numbers. He or someone else can advise you on pay for someone with previous TI.


----------



## Amspence

To all that have replied to this post so far … Thank you.  My Daughters final choice will be one that is well thought out I am sure. 
She will be on this site soon and for the next couple of years …
Great site!!!


----------



## chris_log

benny88 said:
			
		

> PM inbound re: pay for an ROTP member with no previous experience in case Piper doesn't know the exact numbers. He or someone else can advise you on pay for someone with previous TI.



PM sent as well, as further to the above...it all depends on the rank you left the 'Mo at.


----------



## tyciol

I doubt it is something held against you if time is used well. High school is a great resources so take advantage of it while you can, because you can't once you're older.


----------



## tyciol

This sounds like just the sort of applicant who could get in early.


----------



## BravoKilo

Hello. I am currently looking at planning to go into the ROTP program for Aerospace Control Officer. I have many factors I am worried about with my application into the ROTP, and this mainly has to do with academic history. 

It took me six years to finally get out of highschool. At the earlier point in my life I didn't exactly know what I wanted to do with it, nor even really cared. I had the wrong attitude toward school at this point, and didn't really view it as important at that point in time. I did the bare minimum and was apathetic to the mark I got; whether it be just passng or a high eighties mark. They were all over the board, however it didn't really matter to me what I got.

My grade 12 year I just really didn't attend school, working jobs to gain money or just relaxing. This ranged from flipping burgers, to writing editorials for websites and other publications, back to a night shift stock position. I didn't really care what I did, I just ended up doing it. Very stupid move on my part.

In fifth year I actually went back and got all my credits to graduate, I simply had my diploma. I could go out into the world and just get some random job, but I soon realized thats not exactly what I wanted. As a child, I always wanted to be a teacher and I guess I had a minor epiphany on the matter. My old highschool wouldn't take me back, for obvious reasons, so I went to another. I talked with the administration, told them about my goals, and they were reluctant to take me. However, I gave them my reassurances I would do well.

I applied myself to my academics with a semi-full course load, and two night schools each semester. I started to become somewhat of a leading figure in the school, attempting to motivate the other students in the the classes, on the news paper, and offer my assistance whenever I could. I even spearheaded a mildly successful charity program which raised a small amount of money. At the end of this school year, I went from pretty much being a failure to being accepted into every University I applied to, going as far as being accepted into the Concurrent Education programs at Trent, Laurentian, and Brock, as well as acceptances to computer sciences programs in a few other Universities as well. I had scholarships, and many great offers from schools. My average for my six grade twelve U and M level courses was 92. 

What I'm concerned about is I did talk to many recruiters about the ROTP program, always finding out bits and pieces each time I talked to them, however one of them just said that they would be looking at my Grade 10, 11, and 12 marks and I needed to have a great average over all three of them. I think it's understandable why this would worry me, as I didn't really apply myself until my final year, and the rest of my education isn't really a great representation of who I am when I actually apply myself to something. 

I guess my question is what sort of factors will help boost me past the unfortunate education, or what sort of factors will I need to improve and how to ensure I can at least stand in with the crowd and have a fair chance... If I have a chance at all. Do you think my marks will immediately exclude me from any chance of getting into ROTP, or do you think they may look at the conditions of my final year and make an assessment based on the sudden and drastic improvement in my commitment to my academics as well as other factors in my life? I honestly don't know.

Thank you all for your time, and thanks to those who take the time to reply.

=======================================

The reason why I am currently not at any of the schools I listed above is due to the CUPE 416 and 79 strike in Toronto which directly affected my income. I was not able to do my summer job due to CUPE's strike, yet I wasn't unionized so I had no chance of getting the lost income back. I left with only 40% of my projected earnings for the summer, and when it came time to pay tuition I merely did not have enough money to pay for it, even after going through OSAP's reassessment and other options available. I looked into the ROTP program as a way to not pay for my education, but also to set myself apart from the rest of my colleagues in my potential field. This would also being a learning and growth experience; to expand as individual and ensure that I will maintain and keep my newly founded academic lifestyle through hard work and determination to serve my country. Once my commitment to the ROTP is over, I may stay on if I really enjoy the work more than I expected, or leave a better individual and begin my career as an educator. 

Once again thank you all.


----------



## gcclarke

76.234435%

Or, you know. You could go talk to someone at the recruiting centre who could actually give you a valid answer rather than attempt to get it from random strangers on the internet.


----------



## owa

gcclarke said:
			
		

> 76.234435%
> 
> Or, you know. You could go talk to someone at the recruiting centre who could actually give you a valid answer rather than attempt to get it from random strangers on the internet.



Although I agree that your advice is sound (I too believe his best bet would be to ask someone at a recruitment centre), I also think you could have been a little nicer in displaying this.  If you haven't noticed, this section is for asking questions, and I think that should be encouraged and not discouraged.


----------



## PMedMoe

owa said:
			
		

> Although I agree that your advice is sound (I too believe his best bet would be to ask someone at a recruitment centre), I also think you could have been a little nicer in displaying this.  If you haven't noticed, this section is for asking questions, and I think that should be encouraged and not discouraged.



Yes, but asking a question in such a manner ("what are my odds of......") is difficult to reply to.  That's like a high school hockey player asking what their odds are of getting into the NHL.


----------



## SeanNewman

You have one thing going for you and one going against you.

For:  The CF always wants people; and

Against:  If the trade you want is competitive for entrants, your grade average will likely be the only objective measure you go up against your peers with...unless you knock it out of the park at the interview.

However, since every trade changes every year by location, your best bet it the RC.  Also, if they give you an answer you don't like, try a RC a few hours away.

Good luck though, because ROTP is honestly such a good plan that I don't know why the CF even offers it.  It's like the best of all worlds...free education plus money, and you don't have to go through the hard RMC parts.


----------



## gcclarke

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Good luck though, because ROTP is honestly such a good plan that I don't know why the CF even offers it.  It's like the best of all worlds...free education plus money, and you don't have to go through the hard RMC parts.



It's cheaper to just pay their tuition and books than it is to run at increased capacity at RMC, or god forbid open another MilCol. Especially since, at the vast majority of universities in this country, a large portion of the operating expenses are paid for by the province. 

It's not quite as good of a bargain for the CF as a DEO entrant, but it's not too far behind.


----------



## SeanNewman

I mean for the individual...ROTP is a gold mine.

Yes it's better for the CF to have someone pay their own way first, but here are the pros and cons for the person:

DEO:
Con: Pay your own school, promoted later (Captain at around 27-28, Major at 35-ish, etc).
Pro: Get to have your own summers at a pretty significant time of your life.

ROTP:
Con: No summers.
Pro:  Free school, free money, Captain at 25, Major at 32-33-ish.

You might say it's only a few years difference, but you're also getting four years extra pensionable time.

Plus, those years add up huge over the course of your career.  For example, if you make $60k instead of $55k at 25 years old, and $62k instead of $57k at 26, then promotion would be $90k instead of $80k at 32, etc.

So every year of your life in the CF = at minimum $5k/year more, or well over $100k total, just in pay alone, not even including income during school and not paying tuition.


----------



## gcclarke

Mmmm yes I was moreso responding to the "ROTP is honestly such a good plan that I don't know why the CF even offers it" portion of your comment. 

I myself was DEO, and in retrospect kind of wish I had gone ROTP, but then again, the thought of joining the Navy hadn't really crossed my mind until about 3rd year.


----------



## SeanNewman

Ahh, I see.  No, what I meant was that a DEO is giving something of himself to the service.

In comparison, the CF is going head over heals to give to the ROTP officer.  No, the DEO doesn't give a commitment, but if you decide that you're going to stay in regardless, as I mentioned ROTP civie U is a gold mine for the individual.

So in terms of what I meant that I was surprised the CF offered it, it's because if anything I think the CF is asking too little in return.  The DEO pays for their own education, and then ends up further behind the ROTP who gets to a battalion with no student debt and likely money in the bank.

Not passing judgement, nor am I asking ROTPs to feel guilty for what the CF offers.  It just seems too good to be true, like they should almost ask for a life-long commitment or something.


----------



## gcclarke

ROTP is a really really good deal. I wish I had taken advantage of it. And because it is a good deal, it is a very useful tool in the utility belt of our recruiting system. But despite that tool, we're still short on a number of officer trades. Tacking on further obligatory service would due rather counter-productive. 

Not to mention the fact that, as a 18 year old fresh out of high school, the concept of signing on for a minimum of 9 years of your life is rather monumental as it is. That's bloody well half their life. Making that decision even harder is hardly the answer to our personnel woes.


----------



## owa

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Yes, but asking a question in such a manner ("what are my odds of......") is difficult to reply to.  That's like a high school hockey player asking what their odds are of getting into the NHL.



Oh I understand that his question was put poorly, but he did provide a lot of information and probably thought he was being helpful.  It just doesn't hurt to be positive back to people.  Anyway, I'll bugger off now haha, I don't want to derail this conversation.


----------



## Smirnoff123

I am very determined on getting accepted in to the ROTP upon my completion of highschool, but I am a little worried about some things. I am not worried about the academic aspect of being accepted but I am worried about my lack of leadership experience. Through out my life I have not really done many things that I could gain this experience in, most sports I played have been individual sports such as motocross racing. My only team sport that can amount for anything would be highschool football, which I am not a captain in. I believe that I have the potential and skills to become a leader, I just need the chance to prove myself. So I was wondering how crucial prior leadership experience is for ROTP acceptance?


----------



## Nauticus

C.G.R said:
			
		

> I am very determined on getting accepted in to the ROTP upon my completion of highschool, but I am a little worried about some things. I am not worried about the academic aspect of being accepted but I am worried about my lack of leadership experience. Through out my life I have not really done many things that I could gain this experience in, most sports I played have been individual sports such as motocross racing. My only team sport that can amount for anything would be highschool football, which I am not a captain in. I believe that I have the potential and skills to become a leader, I just need the chance to prove myself. So I was wondering how crucial prior leadership experience is for ROTP acceptance?


Instead of brainstorm ways to get around it, why not brainstorm ways to obtain leadership experience? Try and find a job that allows you some supervisory work. If you're still in high school, join a club. Also, DO some volunteer work.


----------



## Brasidas

BravoKilo said:
			
		

> ... I started to become somewhat of a leading figure in the school, attempting to motivate the other students in the the classes, on the news paper, and offer my assistance whenever I could. I even spearheaded a mildly successful charity program which raised a small amount of money.



How about continuing to dig into this stuff and "leading" your leadership quals with that?

And if you're concerned about dough while building up your education credibility, how about taking some first-year level night courses at a college? Talk to CFRC, and see what, if anything, you can do on the academic front that's within your means. Maybe a university-level english course, some math, and some history could reinforce your late-blooming academic credentials.


----------



## DavidWheatcroft

Hello,

I am 15, currently in grade 10 and plan on doing the ROTP after high school. My plan is to do civi rotp at carleton U, probably aerospace engineering. I have an 81% average (plan on getting it higher), I'm currently building an airplane in my backyard, and plan on getting my private pilots license this summer. I'm in air cadets, but this is only my first year enrolled. I'm open to opinions and thats really what I'm here for-I'd like to know if I'm a good candidate, what I can do to be more competitive, when to enroll, how to enroll, chances of getting in, is it smart to do civi rotp?, and anything I've missed. I'm a great listener, and take every comment with up most appreciation.

Regards,
David


----------



## Blake_331

Although I'm not enrolled, I do have limited experience and can answer a couple of your questions.

From what I've been told, you should apply in grade 12. I'd suggest getting it all together and sent in by the end of September, I've heard of a few people who have had papers lost, and I personally am wrapping up medical issues. So the more time you have to sort everything out the better.
Chances of getting in will change from year to year, the higher your average is, the better your odds, and I think Air Cadets will help, but I'm not a recruiter, so who knows. Also, get some leadership experience, it will help out a lot.
I have a cousin who goes to RMC, and a friend who goes to my current university who is in the military. What I've gathered is Civi U is great to help social interactions, not saying RMC folks aren't social, and you get more real world experience. Not only that lack of inspections, and more control over your schedule can reduce stress. My cousin told me he'd sleep on his bed with his ranger blanket to make his mornings easier.
The advantage to RMC is a good education, and I've heard their engineering department is where they excel, but that is second hand information. RMC also helps develop you as a military personal, you will be used to the high stress demand that will go along with your career choice. Also you have the chance to make a lot of friends who you might be stationed with.

Like I said before, this information comes from my current application process and some friends who are currently in ROTP.


----------



## Michael OLeary

David,

You're 15 and in Grade 10.  There are 16 pages of threads in the RMC, CMR, ROTP forum. You have plenty of time to read them all and to find many of the answers to your questions, and to many questions you just haven't thought of yet, well before you have to start taking action.

After that, start with the Recruiting Forum for that process, and then seek out any threads on the NCM trades or Officer classifications you might be interested in.

There's lots of info here for the finding.


----------



## FDO

As a retired Recruiter my advice to you is two fold here. First, there are many threads on this topic here have a look. Second go into your local Recruiting Centre and ask a Recruiter. They have all the information on what you need, what will make you competitive and what courses the CF will accept for the occupation you want. 

Just because you walk into a Recruiting Centre does not mean that you will be put on a waiting bus. My advice is go in now so you know what high school courses you need for your occupation and the marks you need for ROTP. It all counts. You say you have an 81% now that is good enough to get you looked at but probably not good enough to get you selected. You will need to have at least an 85% and I recommend 88-90+% to be competitive for Aerospace Engineer.

 Being 15 and looking now is great forethought. Glad to see your planning your future further ahead than next weeks party.


----------



## DavidWheatcroft

Hello blake,

Thank you for your reply. I was pondering on going to RMC, but I just don't want to spend my university years in an uptight environment-opposed to a civil university. And I was reading online that aerospace engineering at RMC is not credited by The Canadian Engineering Accredation Board, which is the biggest reason I want to go to carleton. Thank you for the advice on the leadership, I would have never thought of that.

Regards,
David


----------



## DexOlesa

An 81 average is good, Cadets will help your application but in no way is it required I was never in Cadets, I was never student council, I finished High school with an 87 average. RMC vs Civy is a personal choice. Personally I have been to Civy U and wanted to go to RMC. Neither is better or worse for getting your application accepted. I am in no way advocating slacking off or anything, but remember you are 15 This program while competitive is in no way impossible to get into without being the student president plus in cadets since you were 3 months old, while single handedly serving meals to the elderly and simultaneously reading to blind children. In short. Take a breath, relax. Read the forums. and in September of your grade 12 year head to the recruiting center they will have the application packets ready for you.


----------



## DavidWheatcroft

Yeah, I have no idea where the nearest recruitment center is(live in northern B.C). I know I'm asking many questions that have already been asked, and I've read them. I'm requesting information better tailored for me. I also am asking early and repeating questions because alot of other people on here are in there mid to late twenties wanting to do ROTP and are, for the lack of a better word, screwed. 

Thank you for your replies, 
David


----------



## 2010newbie

DavidWheatcroft said:
			
		

> Yeah, I have no idea where the nearest recruitment center is(live in northern B.C). I know I'm asking many questions that have already been asked, and I've read them. I'm requesting information better tailored for me. I also am asking early and repeating questions because alot of other people on here are in there mid to late twenties wanting to do ROTP and are, for the lack of a better word, screwed.
> 
> Thank you for your replies,
> David



Hate to tell you, but you will rarely find things that are tailored to you in life. An important attribute, not only for the military, is initiative. It is also important to be able to process information and make a decision based on what has been presented. I understand that it helps to obtain people's opinion regarding "your" situation, but only you know what is best for you. Read the posts Mr. O'Leary provided, read the forces.ca website, use the "Live Chat" function, and got to this link: http://www.forces.ca/html/index.aspx?sm1=6&sm2=0&sid=200&lang=en to find the nearest recruiting centre to you. If after researching for yourself and analyzing it as it pertains to your situation, you have specific questions - then seek advice. I also don't understand your reference to people in their mid to late twenties wanting to do ROTP that are "screwed".


----------



## MSEng314

Be prepared to wait, lots. Two different people on my NETPO had degrees in Aerospace Engineering, and they didn't get their trade choice as the trade was closed. So talk to a recruiter to see if they even have any available positions in that trade first.


----------



## DavidWheatcroft

hmm, I'm just trying to get a basis of understanding on what to expect, and most importantly-how to go about choosing my future. I'm trying to get answers like the reply from MSEnd314, DEXOlesas, And Blakes, tailored to me. Its the gaps in my knowledge I'm trying to fill, and not every question on this forum can answer them. Hey, I'm still learnin', any criticism is good criticism!

Thanks 2010 newbie, and mseng314


----------



## FDO

MSEng314 said:
			
		

> Be prepared to wait, lots. Two different people on my NETPO had degrees in Aerospace Engineering, and they didn't get their trade choice as the trade was closed. So talk to a recruiter to see if they even have any available positions in that trade first.



Direct Entry Officer (DEO) and ROTP are two different entry programs and have two different numbers of available openings. If your friends applied DEO then I can see the trades being closed. ROTP has a different set of numbers they go by so don't be worried about openings. Look in the yellow pages of your local phonebook under recruiting it should tell you where the nearest Recruiting Centre is. If it's a long way out then ask them if they do "remote recruiting" in your area and when.

As for people in their mid to late 20's being screwed you may want to rethink that. I saw many in that age group enrolled in ROTP and older enrolled in the CF. Something else to think about is when to take the info you have received and act on it. Don't look for the answers that are "tailored" to you they may not be correct. Take all the information you receive and sort it. Bare in mind too that some of the answers you get will be from people who "think" they know the answer. Some of the answers you get are from people who are "in" the know. Those people usually have answers you don't want to hear.


----------



## DexOlesa

I'm 24 made it into ROTP first round without a hitch. There is apparently a 2nd year student thats 30. Age has very little to do with it unless. You slacked off in high school and have absolutely nothing to offer the CF then yes you are in fact screwed.


----------



## 2010newbie

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> I'm 24 made it into ROTP first round without a hitch. There is apparently a 2nd year student thats 30. Age has very little to do with it unless.



100% correct - I am 33 and I was accepted ROTP first round for this September, so I agree with you age really has very little to do with it........


----------



## DexOlesa

Are you going to RMC or Civilian?


----------



## George Wallace

He's 15 and in Grade 10.  He is trying to make a decision whether to go to a Civilian Univ or RMC.......when the time comes.

If anyone thinks that they are "special" and need special consideration, then they should get that thought right out of their minds.  The only kids who are "special" are Jerry's Kids.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

David, of the advice you received here I would look at Retired FDOs. He used to be a recruiter and knows how the system works and how they go about things.


----------



## 2010newbie

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> Are you going to RMC or Civilian?



Civilian - UOIT


----------



## DexOlesa

Man. Every guy I've met so far my age or older is headed civy U.


----------



## macknightcr

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> Man. Every guy I've met so far my age or older is headed civy U.



How old are you?  I''l be 23 going to CMR, there is a guy in his 30's going to RMC.


----------



## DexOlesa

24 in October. Like I said everyone I've met. I'm sure there will be some.


----------



## travisvotour

My name is Travis Votour,

I am in grade 11, and have a strong interest in RMC. I have an 86 average, and have signed up for all the prerequisites I need to apply for RMC. I play rugby, volunteer for the Canadian Cancer Society, and am opening my own business this summer. I also attend my local gym 3-6 days a week. I need to know what else I can do to up my chances in getting into RMC. Its been my dream for a long time and would really rather RMC then any other university.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, I apologize if I put this into the wrong forum, I am new.


----------



## gcclarke

Honestly, you sound like an extremely well rounded candidate. Decent grades, sports, volunteer and leadership experience with your own business? Impressive. I mean, if you can bring up your grades more it'll always help rather than hurt, but I can't think of any single other activity you could add to your plate that would increase your chances. 

Of course, it also depends upon what trade you're applying for. Each year has a limited number of spots, and for some trades the number of applicants may greatly outnumber the number of spots available. But really, I'd say just keep it up and stay out of trouble.


----------



## murrdawg

Another thing I'd mention, is try to get into more leadership positions. They always look for that.


----------



## travisvotour

Thank you very much, that helps! I plan on getting my marks up a bit more. all my marks are nineties but english, which I plan on getting up!

I want to get into business administration. or Military and Strategies Study, are any of these a better application to spot ratio then others?

Thanks.
T.


----------



## DexOlesa

What they meant by application spots were the Occupation (Pilot, Infantry, MARS etc.) not the degree.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Travis you sound like a really good kid. Good luck.

I'm not an officer.   
 If you were one of my soldiers asking me this question I would recommend you talk about what your dreams are _after_ going to RMC,and not saying that just getting into RMC is a dream.   

RMC is a school, use it as a tool to become something great.


----------



## benny88

Travis,

   Not making assumptions about you at all, but I've seen several people who appear to be as well qualified as you but focus so much on the things on the resume and not so much the people who you do those activities with (and in the case of volunteer work, for). You seem like a nice guy I'm sure you won't have a problem, but make sure that when they contact your references (and they will) that they will hear nice things.
   Best of luck, I also worked for the Canadian Cancer Society, and I think that the recruiter really liked that, so if you have a chance in your interview, try to highlight what you did there.


PS- Ditto to what Flawed Design said. RMC is but a minor part of your career; focus beyond it to the officer you want to be, not the officer cadet you want to be.


----------



## Alea

Hello Travis,

I hope you like reading as... here is a 26 pages thread concerning RMC (and there is much more on the forum):

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23377.0.html

Hopefully, this will answer some of your questions and I'm sure other experienced members on this forum will come to help you with their advices.

Alea

P.S.: Was wondering... this isn't your real name is it?? Because posting your identity on a forum is not a really good idea


----------



## gcclarke

Alea said:
			
		

> P.S.: Was wondering... this isn't your real name is it?? Because posting your identity on a forum is not a really good idea



That very much so depends upon what one posts with said account. I mean, you know, it's not like he called the CDS a jerkwad yet.


----------



## calamityjoe

xDD


----------



## macknightcr

You sound like a perfect candidate, but as it has been said a lot of times people tend to mention only the good things excluding the bad.  What I feel they tend to look for is a well rounded person with leadership qualities.  They are not looking for people to right away take command of soldiers, the qualities they are looking for are a base to be built upon.  

The person who conducts your interview will find out if you are a good candidate, and will pass that along for the selection board.  Practice the CFAT, and get into good shape and stay out of trouble and you should be fine.  Also I would work on bringing your grades up as much as possible without sacrificing your extra-curriculars (grades aren't everything), and apply as early as possible so your application can get squared away as soon as possible.  I have read multiple people having their selections delayed because of medical issues.  

What business are you starting?

Good luck, and maybe over the next few years I will run into you in Kingston.


----------



## travisvotour

Thanks everyone, these are all great suggestions.

to answer your question I am opening a car detailing business! But thanks for the link, ill check it out!

T.

And yes, its my real name, but I never give out anything else about me so I try not to worry. But thanks for the idea! maybe next time I wont be so upfront with personal info.


----------



## Rogo

Never hurts to drop into your local Recruiting Det. They can give you pointers and let you read up on trades you find of interest.

Sound like a good candidate...I got in, you sound like you easily could too. Stick with it.


----------



## InfernoX

Hello everyone.  I'm an 18 year old from Alberta looking to apply for the ROTP. (Hopefully this year but definitely next year)

I've graduated high school last June (I did go back for a semester from September through January to raise my English 30-1 and Applied Math 30 marks) and since then I've had a lot of time to think about what I wanted to do with my life.  I came up with a short list of things that I wanted to accomplish in this time. (Get an education, learn a new language, get back in shape and stay there, travel and meet new people)  After hearing that my cousin was looking to join the army I figured I'd take a look at the website and seeing what it's all about and ROTP seems like the perfect opportunity to accomplish all of these goals.  Additionally, I've always had a bit of a thirst for adventure from growing up in a small town with nothing interesting in it and immensely enjoy challenging myself physically.  (I think I realized just how much I enjoyed this when I went on a school trip last May where we went canoing, rock climbing, rapelling, hiking etc... haven't had that much fun in a long time)  

The problem lies in that I was an idiot teenager in high school and as a result my marks are quite poor, (Average is around 68, marks are all over the place... some marks in the 80s while others are in the low 60s with some 90s in various computer courses) I haven't participated in sports since before high school ( Played volleyball in grades 7 and 8 and loved it, Played football in grade 9 and would have continued if my high school had a football team for me to play on, Soccer in grades 1 through 4)  and I haven't done any real extracurricular activities. (Really started regretting this in my last couple of months in high school).  I don't have much volunteer experience outside of a few years with Scouts which is something I guess but not very much. (especially since this was when I was 10-13, which was a long time ago)

Clearly I'm far from the ideal candidate and I suspect if I applied I most certainly wouldn't stand a chance of being accepted, so I'm here to ask for some ideas/suggestions on how to make myself a better candidate.  Obviously, raising my marks would be a huge help (Would applying for the junior prepatory year lower grade requirements a bit when applying for ROTP?) and I'd like to get in some volunteer experience and maybe join a sport.  I suppose I'm asking if there's anyone here was in a similar situation as mine and any advice they could offer.  I have the motivation, capability and willpower to do this but I just need to prove it.

Few quick questions:
-Would taking academic upgrading at a University/College be a better option than trying to simply take individual high school courses again?  Does going back to school to upgrade (plus the semester I did this year) reflect positively on my application?  
-What are some good organizations to volunteer for? 
-What are some good sports I could get involved in?  The main reason I didn't play sports in high school was because I didn't feel like I had the necessary skills. (due to not playing the sport as long as most of the people on the team)   Preferably stuff where it's not weird for an adult to be at a novice level like martial arts and stuff.
-Should I still talk to a recruiter and maybe even apply for the 2011-2012 term or should I wait and sort out my marks/experience for next year?  I don't think I have anything to lose by applying but there's not much point in doing so when I'm far from eligible.  (Can't expect them to accept me based on the promise of no longer being the lazy kid I was in high school)


Thanks in advance.


----------



## Cerulean_Sky

I think your last question is the best one to answer first.

Regardless of what anyone on here tells you, it's still up to the recruiters, so you should definitely talk to them - even if you're not planning to apply to the Forces this year. Recruiters are there to help you, and are capable of both answering all questions you have and directing you on how to make yourself more appealing to the Forces. If your local recruitment center is far from you, the forces.ca website has an online chat with a recruiter function. I found my face to face with a recruiter much more informative than the online chat, but maybe that was just my personal experience. You can also give them a call. They'd be happy to talk to you, no matter how far off the mark you think you are when it comes to the ROTP standard. 

As for your marks, I was repeatedly told during the recruiting process that a large portion of the application is weighed on marks. The aptitude tests are also taken into account, so if you do extremely well on them that might balance out some of your marks. 

You should volunteer wherever you feel is right; during the recruiting process you might be asked why you volunteer there, and I don't believe that "because it's a way into the Forces" is a very good answer. With volunteering (and this is my personal opinion) I think they're looking for personality characteristics like your ability to believe in a cause and put time and effort into it. For the same reason, hobbies are also a bonus, especially if they're related to your future working field. Let's say you're a computer engineer... if you like to create websites in your spare time, that's a great hobby to list because it shows you work on your own to develop skills you'll need in the future.

Same with the sport; choose something you like and stick with it. If you like martial arts then you should do martial arts - I personally started karate when I was 17, and nearly half the beginners in my dojo are adults. Most dojos hold child and adult classes separately, and have a sub separation for belt level; it's not nearly as awkward to start out as a 17 year old white belt when you're in a white to orange belt class for people aged 16+. It's quite nice actually... the classes are very small, so you get more individual attention than you would otherwise. 

The one thing I would work on, if I was you, is your self confidence. Don't let the belief that you don't have the necessary skills hold you back; no one starts out being able to do something perfectly, whether it's academic or related to sports. If you give up on all your sports because people are better than you (yes they've been playing longer, skill comes with time in almost everything), and you're not physically oriented, will you also drop out of BMOQ (3 - 4 months summer camp of training) because you feel like other people are better? You won't last long at all with that attitude. Sometimes you come out on top, sometimes you come out on the bottom - that's always the way it is because people have different strengths and weaknesses. I'm going into this knowing that I'm likely going to get my 'behind' kicked when it comes to the physical portion of training, but I'm doing my best to catch up. Other people won't be as strong in academics. They'll help me improve when it comes to the physical portion, I'll help them improve when it comes to the academics portion - teamwork, you know? Teams don't work really well when their members give up. 

Anyway, I know the last bit is a bit preachy, but I hope you'll take it in the spirit it was meant - encouragement rather than discouragement. I wish you all the best, regardless of what you choose to do. 



(Edited to fix website address mistake.)


----------



## InfernoX

Thanks for the advice.

I didn't  mean to imply that I just want to volunteer to get into the Forces, I mean obviously there's a reason the Force's looks for volunteer experience because it represents and develops certain qualities in an individual which in general would help me out a lot in both life and in my application.  The application just serves as a kick in the butt saying "You should do this to be a better person, start actively seeking this out".  

Martial Arts definitely seems like a good option for me as someone out of school, I did kind of enjoy it back when I took Karate for a bit when I was in Middle School.  Although if I do end up going to University/College to upgrade my academics I could participate in something that's on offer there so that gives me a couple more options.  

And yeah, I guess I have some self confidence issues.  I'm trying to balance being confident without being arrogant as much as I can but I gotta admit I do have my doubts about things.  It kind of feels like that by striving to become a better applicant I'll become  a better candidate.  That seems kind of obvious when put to words like that, but I guess I like to look at it from the perspective that I'm already a great candidate and that I just need to prove it.  Kind of diametrically opposed points of view but I think they can coexist, it certainly can't do any harm.

Anyway thanks for the advice again, it helped me better understand my motivations after a few minutes of contemplation.


----------



## 2010newbie

Cerulean_Sky said:
			
		

> If your local recruitment center is far from you, the army.ca website has an online chat function. I found my face to face with a recruiter much more informative than the online chat, but maybe that was just my personal experience.



I think you mean the forces.ca online chat with a recruiter function.


----------



## Cerulean_Sky

2010newbie said:
			
		

> I think you mean the forces.ca online chat with a recruiter function.



I most likely do. Sorry, should have checked out the website before posting it. I'll edit the first post.


----------



## dave.jones3

I realize that for anyone reading this it's really too late to be considering RMC until next fall but I'll continue anyhow. When I was looking into it in the Winter of my Grade 11 year ( with a horrible 78 average but a respectable athletic resume) I was told that getting accepted into a program to come out as an Infantry Officer would be no problem. That being said for Pilots I know a guy who had a 90% average, his glider license and was a spectacular athlete who was told it was unlikely he could get in. 

So it really depends on the year and the trade. 


Hope this Helps


----------



## Private Hassan

Well I am a private at the Toronto Scottish Regiment in Toronto Ontario, I joined the reserves just to find out how I would like the military, good news is I'm in love with it! My question is I have already gotten accepted to York University and will be going there starting September, so I cant apply for ROTP this summer, but I wish to apply this september for next year, will me being a reservist come in handy while applying? I am to be fully qualified this coming september as a private also. Any help and advice on next steps would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## mathabos

There are numerous threads about this subject already. So for additional info use the search function to find them. 

The easy answer is you need to be a well rounded individual.
- Good grades through high school and cegep (if you live in Quebec)  
- Extracurricular activies like cadets, sports or volunteer work. The most important part here is to demonstrate that you have been in leadership positions.
- Being in the reserves could definitely be a bonus to your application (was not my case therefore just my  :2c . Again, look for leadership positions or tasks that can show off your skills.
- A part-time job that could help you develop similar skills to those you are applying for.

I can't go into the questions that will be asked during the interview. However, I will say that there is an emphasis on leadership.


----------



## Rogo

Give the recruiting centre a call and ask them.   They will have the information you need. I imagine your experience would be an asset, good luck.


----------



## jayseo

Hi my name is Jay and I will be going in to Grade 12 this September and I have few questions about admission to RMC.
I have been in Air Cadets for more than 4 years now, and currently I'm the 2IC of my Squadron
I have decent amount of Volunteer hours (around 100) from various organizations such as Multicultural Society, and the local church.
I have acquired Glider Pilot Scholarship in Aircadets last summer, through which I have obtained my Glider Pilots License.
My grade 11 Average was 82 
In the past I was on School Track and Field and Band in my junior years. 

What do you think I should do for the rest of the summer and throughout school year to improve my competition next year when I apply for RMC?
I know I should definitely improve my grades in grade 12. I had part time jobs but nothing fancy (fast food restaurants). Through my expireinc es in cadets and
self interest, I can say I know this country inside out, and how Canadian Forces Function. 
What are my chances? 
id appreciate any replies and comments 
Thank you


----------



## MP_Bound

Stacked said:
			
		

> If you knew how the CF functions inside and out then you would know that nobody on this forum can tell you your chances of going to RMC.



ZING!


----------



## Scott

Either of you two have something constructive to add or was your purpose solely to shit on the kid?

We get far zanier statements here and the rest of his post seems pretty well put together.

The Staff

jayseo,

Go hit your local CFRC. I am also sure that before the weekend is out that someone will be by to offer some *constructive* advice. 

My only other piece of advice is to watch yourself in tossing around statements here. I am sure cadets has been a valuable and fun experience for you but it is not qualification to say you know the CF.

Cheers and good luck.


----------



## MP_Bound

jayseo said:
			
		

> Hi my name is Jay and I will be going in to Grade 12 this September and I have few questions about admission to RMC.
> I have been in Air Cadets for more than 4 years now, and currently I'm the 2IC of my Squadron.(missing a period)
> I have decent amount of Volunteer hours (around 100) from various organizations such as Multicultural Society, and the local church.
> I have acquired Glider Pilot Scholarship in Air cadets last summer, through which I have obtained my Glider Pilots License.
> My grade 11 Average was 82.
> In the past I was on the school track and field team and played in the Band in my junior years.
> 
> What do you think I should do for the rest of the summer and throughout school year to improve my competition next year when I apply for RMC?
> I know I should definitely improve my grades in grade 12. I had part time jobs but nothing fancy (fast food restaurants). Through my experiences in cadets and
> self interest, I can say I know this country inside out, and how Canadian Forces Function.
> What are my chances?
> I would(Never start a sentence or a paragraph with a contraction) appreciate any replies and comments
> Thank you



From what you have posted, you seem to be headed on the right track and my suggestion would to continue on the path you're on. Not only will it benefit you when it comes time for you to compete for a spot at RMC, it will enable you to gain some life experience and leadership skills; something integral to any leader.

I wouldn't worry so much about where you work, more about what you are doing within that work place. Take on leadership opportunities within your range when they become available, and always strive to do your best.

Last thing I will note is your grammar and punctuation. Taking care in any task you undertake is essential to leadership, especially in the Canadian Forces. I have highlighted some of the errors I found in yellow. I am not trying to offend, just a few mistakes I picked up on

I wish you the best of luck in your pursuits, and I apologize for my previous remarks.

MP_Bound


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## FDO

Stacked said:
			
		

> If you knew how the CF functions inside and out, then you would know that nobody on this forum can tell you your chances of going to RMC.



Stacked , If you knew as much as you think you do then you would know that a qualified Recruiter or MCC WOULD be able to tell you what your CHANCES are but not give you any guarantees. And some people on here ARE qualified Recruiters AND MCCs. Writing a CFAT and doing a medical does not make you an expert either in recruiting or this forum. Stay in your lane!!

Jay, your chances at this point are not bad. Cadet experience and extracurricular activities in school are good add ons. Things that show leadership. Usually the board looks at high school marks first. Usually they look for an average above 85 during grades 10 through 12. However when you go in the the Recruiting Centre in October to apply chances are you will no have any grade 12 marks to show them. An 82 is not bad and like I said with Cadet time and other outside interests it should put you in good standing. BUT remember there are no guarantees that you'll get accepted or that you'll get accepted for the occupation you want.

Scott is right, go in to the CFRC and talk to a Recruiter. They all have a pretty good idea on what's going on. 

And a piece  of advice. Before you take any crap from anyone on this form check their profile! A Navy lower decker wanna be usually doesn't have too much to say that's worth paying attention to with regards to recruiting and especially RMC. 

Good luck


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## KrazyHamburglar

Jay,

Like Retired_FDO said, I think your chances are not bad. Besides your school marks, what will make the balance tip is certainly your extra curricular activities, your volunteering being a big part of it. The track and field shows that you have some interest in physical fitness, also a plus. For the leadership aspect, your position as 2IC in cadets is certainly a good advantage over the competition. You should also seek other leadership opportunities. You need to remember that, for officers, the CF is looking for well balanced individuals able to function is stressful leadership positions, so you need to do everything in your power to show the recruiter your capacity to do just that...

RMC works with 4 pillars: academics, athletics, bilingualism and military... The best advice I can give you is to start learning the other official language, probably french in your case. Even though it is not a requirement for recruiting, it is a requirement to graduate from RMC, so the sooner you start, the easier it will be Also, it will be an advantage during promotion boards. For the selection process, having started a second language training of some sort shows you understand it's importance in the CF...

On a side note, use the fact that you were in a leadership position in Air Cadets all you want during the recruiting process but as soon as you step on your Basic training, never mention it. Surely use the knowledge you gained through Cadets as a tool to make
life easier but for the rest, let your instructor show you the ropes... basically the only difference between you and the next guy is that you know how to use a ironing board and how to shine your shoes. I was in cadets myself and never said a word about it... there's always a smarta** that tries to show off and ends up in trouble for some stupid reason. At the beginning, it will also make you stand out of the crowd and you don't want that, you want to be recognize for what you do, not what you should have done because you should know better because of your previous experience in Cadets...

Anyway, take it for what it is... just my  :2c:


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## Amspence

Again, I would like to thank all of you who have shown interest in this post and have provided the much needed information that we seek.  My daughters interest in seeking a Military Career as a Pilot has continued to grow and as a very proud father, I continue to support her in achieving her goal of being accepted into RMC as a Pilot.  

Some of the things she has done since my last post are:

- Attended a 6 week Aircraft Maintenance Scholarship course at Canadore College in Kingston last year.  Here, she received the ANAVETS medal for top cadet on the course at their gradulation.  This was a Air Cadet activity.

- Currently in Gimli , MB earning her Glider Pilots license through another 6 week Scholarship course provided by Air Cadets.  

- Registered with the SPCA as a volunteer and has her volunteer hours recorded.   Here she walks and grooms the shelters animals, something that is not difficult as she is very much an animal lover.

- Continues her work with a local aviation company as front desk girl responsible for passenger bookings, frieght, renting of planes and general paperwork (IE: invoicing and handling of cash).  This October will be 2 years of continuous employment with this company.

- Continues with her efforts to achieve her Private Pilots License.  Has received her Student License and solos now.  Currently, she has logged 52 hours.  She will write her Transport Canada exam on return from Gimli.  And then will prepare for her Flight Test in early November as this is when she turns 17 and can hold a PPL.  Also, this summer she will begin work on her Float Endorsement as we are very fortunate to have access to a plane for fuel costs only and have a 3400+ hour pilot that is anxious to help her out in this area.

- Achieved a 84% average in her grade 11 year with all courses being "Pure" (think this is the right terminology).  Anyways, they consist of Math, English, French (taken since grade 4), Social Studies, Physics, Chemistry and Biology.  She now knows that her future degree will be in the field of Sciences and preferrably in Physics as it was her favorite subject..

- She continues to be very actively involved with the local Air Cadet Squadron and has achieved the rank of Flight Sergeant.  She will be boarded September 16 for the Warrant Officer rank and is aspiring to be selected as Squadron Warrant Officer for the 2010/2011 cadet year (her final).  Medal wise, she has received the Long Service Medal, ANAVETS Medal, Legion Medal of Excellence and the Lord Strathcona Medal. 

In closing, she looks forward to returning home from Gimli with her first set of Wings and then preparing her ROTP application to RMC.  She is much like me at her age.  She has outgrown her world here in Fort McMurray, AB and is looking forward to beginning "her" life, in her chosen field .... that being Aviation related.  

So folks, if any of you have any last minute advise it would be surely welcomed.  

Best regards to all and hoping that your summer is being enjoyed wherever you are ....

Andrew


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## Jp_noble1

Hi, i'm hoping to get into RMC aswell. i will be going into grade 12, my grades last year were in the low 60's, i had a bad year. But i've learned what i did wrong and i'm applying it to this year. 

i been playing competitive boys soccer for about 5 years 
I've been in cadets for 5 years, army and air cadets, 2 years in england and 3 here in Canada.
Im taking all the classes i need to get into a engineering degree course, if i do well in the classes and yet and 80% average what do you think my chances are of getting in and can you suggest anything i might need to add. Thanks, Jack


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## PMedMoe

Jp_noble1 said:
			
		

> can you suggest anything i might need to add. Thanks, Jack



Try and improve your spelling and grammar and use proper capitalization.  I'm sure you read the Site Guidelines:



> You will not use excessive webspeak, or other shorthand styles of typing. *Please use English or French to the best of your ability*; this makes it easier for those who are not posting in their native language.


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## Jarnhamar

Noble 1, do you think the Spartans were worried about spelling?
Not really. Sure they needed to spell the names of the various planets they brought compliance on and the names of the aliens they killed, but they were more worried about physical fitness.

Bring your grades up AND get in way better shape.
When you write something do a spell check, for every mistake you make fire off 10 push ups or something.


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## Jp_noble1

Haha, that just made my day. Ill do that


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## Rogo

jayseo said:
			
		

> Hi my name is Jay and I will be going in to Grade 12 this September and I have few questions about admission to RMC.
> I have been in Air Cadets for more than 4 years now, and currently I'm the 2IC of my Squadron
> I have decent amount of Volunteer hours (around 100) from various organizations such as Multicultural Society, and the local church.
> I have acquired Glider Pilot Scholarship in Aircadets last summer, through which I have obtained my Glider Pilots License.
> My grade 11 Average was 82
> In the past I was on School Track and Field and Band in my junior years.
> 
> What do you think I should do for the rest of the summer and throughout school year to improve my competition next year when I apply for RMC?
> I know I should definitely improve my grades in grade 12. I had part time jobs but nothing fancy (fast food restaurants). Through my expireinc es in cadets and
> self interest, I can say I know this country inside out, and how Canadian Forces Function.
> What are my chances?
> id appreciate any replies and comments
> Thank you




I put your information into the recruiting computer and your chances are 72.74%    No but to be honest just stick with what you are doing, work on physical fitness, leadership roles such as cadets, and research your trade.  Telling your recruiter that you know this country and the Canadian Forces inside and out is just a plain bad thing to say to them.  You want them to see you as competent not arrogant.    I'm just warning because I can at times be arrogant and even I wouldn't be as bold as to say that...and I'm already in the program.

Good Luck


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## aesop081

jayseo said:
			
		

> I can say I know this country inside out, *and how Canadian Forces Function*.



Yeah right........


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## Spence671

Hi my name is Spencer Spence I just recently filled out a Component Transfer(CT) to go to RMC in Kingston and do ROTP there. But I have a few questions that I would like to have answered about the likelihood of me going based on my circumstances. And does anybody know of someone who was in a similar boat than me who got accepted?

Okay so I am a fully trained Private now in the Reserves, my trade is infantry. I was wondering if being in the reserves and fully qualified would help me in the selection process to RMC. The degree I am hoping to study is Civil Engineering. I would like to be an Engineer in the military. Does changing my trade effect my chances? If it does should stay Infantry? I would do anything to get into that school, I don't think my 78% average from grade 11 is enough to get it but I was thinking maybe I can get in with the reserves and  my 3 years of cadet experience. I'm currently doing my grade 12 this year so I am applying for next years schooling of course. Does the selection board in Ottawa accept CT applicants like myself over applicants who apply the regular away, through my CT I didn't even have to do any of that essay stuff? And how competitive is it to get accepted to RMC via CT?  I'm not sure if I should be expecting to be accepted or turned down, I would obviously like to know whether or not I should get my hopes up. 
Oh and if this helps any my CFAT (aptitude test) was 41; English 8, Spacial 8, Math 25. And I am from Newfoundland, but I doubt that makes a difference....


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## Spence671

Yes I tried looking at other post but couldn't find one with circumstances like my own, especially with a CT.
Can someone help answer my question


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## George Wallace

Did you try reading the topics on this in the RMC, CMR, ROTP Forum?

Topic LOCKED


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## George Wallace

OH!


I see you already did.



PS.  One post is enough.  More than one cut and paste is borderline SPAMMING.  Several and it becomes TROLLING.



Oh?  How did you get CFAT scores?  They are not to be released, not that they matter too much to us.


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## Spence671

I just asked for them. Im not going to say who I asked because I don't want to get anyone in trouble
So can you help me with my question?


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## George Wallace

Spence671 said:
			
		

> I just asked for them. Im not going to say who I asked because I don't want to get anyone in trouble
> So can you help me with my question?



Actually, yes I can.  If you read the topics thoroughly in this forum, you will find all your answers.  You will even find answers to questions you have yet to think of.  This will save you time, and better prepare you for the copious amounts of research you will have to do to earn a Degree and perhaps a Commission in the CF.


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## Jp_noble1

I was just readin through this and just had a question of my own. Will going back and re-taking calculus and physics 30 hurt me in anyway? or will it look like i want to be there and want to succed?. Just thought id ask.


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## NickB3322

First of all I only applied to be an artillery officer. I'm going to list a few things that came up in the interview and I'm wondering by personal experience if i should get it. I graduated high school with a 75 average (86 in senior year) I have completed a semester with a 60.2 average (woops) and In terms of leadership I have been an assistant captain of softball team and captain of both high school and midget hockey team being MVP in my senior year and only played hockey since the beginning of grade 11 (They loved that and after the interview said that it was extremely impressive and I'm assuming that it will help in the selection process that i brought it up). They said that I have the potential to do anything i put my mind to and seemed impressed. I also told them about volunteer work cleaning up my small community on several occasions and working with the local rink. Any feedback even really negative is appreciated because I'm also interested in being an NCM so it wont be too big of a downer it will help me think about alternate decisions. Either way Canadian Forces will be my future!


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## lethalLemon

Clearly, you'll be fine.

This didn't really need a whole new topic opened, rather you could have used http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search site search functions to find answers as there is a plethora of information.


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## Michael OLeary

If you browse and search the forum, you'll find similar questions have been discussed before:

Preparing for RMC application?

What are my odds of being accepted into ROTP?

Since no-one here has visibility on all the other candidates you'll be competing with for an offer to the occupations of your choice, you won't get a definitive answer. The best you can do is familiarize yourself with the advice given to others, since you'll only be offered the same "best guesses."


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## NickB3322

Basically i wanted to know if an artillery officer is a very competative career and when i said i wanted to know from people with previous experience i pretty much wanted people that have been accepted into ROTP or know people that have been to compare me to them... and today was my first time on the site so I'm still unsure as to how to use the site. Thanks for the feedback so far tho it will be helpful in the future


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## Dou You

NickB3322 said:
			
		

> Basically i wanted to know if an artillery officer is a very competative career and when i said i wanted to know from people with previous experience i pretty much wanted people that have been accepted into ROTP or know people that have been to compare me to them... and today was my first time on the site so I'm still unsure as to how to use the site. Thanks for the feedback so far tho it will be helpful in the future



First tip: Use proper grammar and capitalization, or you will be hearing it from the mods. 

Secondly, your application looks a lot like mine did. I didn't start playing football until grade 12 yet was still named captain, I also captained the hockey and soccer teams, and now I'm captain for the junior hockey team I'm playing for. My high school average was about the same as yours and I also did some volunteering around the local rink as well. Hopefully that gives you an idea of how similar our applications are.

All in all I was accepted with an application similar to yours, but with that being said, it also depends on how big the intake for Artillery in this year's selection is. This is decided by the overall needs of Artillery Officers in the CF. So, there's really nothing you can do at this point . I know it's difficult but all you can do is wait it out. Good luck.


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## NickB3322

Thanks. Sorry about the grammer I actually did all that on my blackberry and its just a bad habit.  :facepalm:


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## infamous_p

Your chances of acceptance are exactly 86.987987982734981723123123239874987429741098274923 %.

Kidding.

For an absolutely unanswerable question, this question comes up far too often.

Your chances of acceptance are based entirely on the assessment of your fellow applicants. You're in a large pool of applicants, all of whom bring vastly different experiences, attributes, and qualifications to the application table. Your chance of acceptance depends entirely on how you compare to each of them, and how you compare to each of them is something you'll never really know.

You'll know of your chances for acceptance when the offers come out. No one can give you an arbitrary number or percentage of success based on what you've done in your life, your specific marks, or your life experiences. It's all relative.

Either way, good luck. Don't drive yourself nuts over it.


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## XxDissolvexX

I'm a grade 11 student and am seriously considering the ROTP contract. I just have a few questions about life at RMC. First off while living at RMC are people able to come down to visit you, or would I have to use a leave pass for that. Also after I graduate  do I still live on a forces base or can I live elsewhere.My last question about the ROTP is if you know, or if you yourself gone through with it while having a civvy Girlfriend/Boyfriend ? 
Thanks
Elliott


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## Strike

Everything you have ever thought about asking has probably already been asked in this thread:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23377.0.html

Instead of starting a brand new one, try taking a look there.


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## lonlypeanut

I know you must get this a lot but I was wondering if you could tell me how good a chance I have for being accepted into RMC?

I am currently in grade eleven with a 89 average and am in french immersion so I am bilingual.
I am a captain on my schools Rugby and Football teams. 
I also play varsity Rugby and snowboard.
I am currently a sergeant in cadets but expect to be promoted soon.
I have completed over 100 community service hours.
I am applying for mechanical engineering so I thought my certificate in welding from my local college might also be relevant.

Thanks


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## Gab3008

it's better than all my friends who were admitted at RMC...  well all that will depend what are your courses if they are academic or professional


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## lonlypeanut

Thanks. All my courses are academic and I chose them to get into an engineering discipline so they meet the requirements.


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## pudd13

According to my Chance of Acceptance to RMC Calculator, you have an exactly 69.8324% chance of getting into RMC.


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## George Wallace

Stacked said:
			
		

> I feel like these threads are just designed to stroke the posters ego. "Tell me how good I am please!"



The urge to tell them that they don't have what it takes is often overwhelming.  












Good thing we haven't see too much of that.  This topic would spiral so fast.


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## Bowen

lonlypeanut said:
			
		

> I know you must get this a lot but I was wondering if you could tell me how good a chance I have for being accepted into RMC?
> 
> I am currently in grade eleven with a 89 average and am in french immersion so I am bilingual.
> I am a captain on my schools Rugby and Football teams.
> I also play varsity Rugby and snowboard.
> I am currently a sergeant in cadets but expect to be promoted soon.
> I have completed over 100 community service hours.
> I am applying for mechanical engineering so I thought my certificate in welding from my local college might also be relevant.
> 
> Thanks



That sounds good. However, they also look at your interview and CFAT scores I believe as well. It also depends on what you applied for. For example, a Pilot candidate would have a lower chance of getting accepted than someone who applied to a career that is in demand. Because of the number of applicants. All in all, there is no definite way to say what your chances are. I have seen several VERY qualified people get turned down. On the other end of the spectrum I have seen people who just barely make the standard get in. Just have to wait for that phone call. Then you will have a greater idea of where you stand.


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## Clancey01

lonlypeanut said:
			
		

> I am currently in grade eleven with a 89 average and am in french immersion so I am bilingual.



I'm not trying to be a troll but being in french immersion doesn't automatically make you bilingual. GRANT IT - if you've been in it long enough or you are exception, then it is entirely possible that you are bilingual. But a french immersion certificate won't get you out of FSL training (I checked). Typically they decide how french you are.

Best of luck though.


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## yoman

Sapper01 said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to be a troll but being in french immersion doesn't automatically make you bilingual. GRANT IT - if you've been in it long enough or you are exception, then it is entirely possible that you are bilingual. But a french immersion certificate won't get you out of FSL training (I checked). Typically they decide how french you are.
> 
> Best of luck though.



Agreed. I know plenty of people who took French immersion who aren't even close to being bilingual. That being said, if you get accepted you will be tested in your second official language to see just how bilingual you are.


----------



## jwtg

lonlypeanut said:
			
		

> I know you must get this a lot but I was wondering if you could tell me how good a chance I have for being accepted into RMC? It doesn't matter how good you are- all that matters is how good you are compared to other applicants.  Unless we knew everything about every applicant, there is literally no way we could tell you anything about your chances, other then a rough guess at whether or not you're as competitive as the average joe.
> 
> I am currently in grade eleven with a 89 average and am in french immersion so I am bilingual. Certainly doesn't hurt you.
> I am a captain on my school's Rugby and Football teams. Leadership and athletics don't hurt you either.
> I also play varsity Rugby and snowboard.
> I am currently a sergeant in cadets but expect to be promoted soon. More experience to draw from in your interview, bolster your application.
> I have completed over 100 community service hours. Seems like a lot compared to your high school peers.  Not necessarily a lot compared to other applicants- impossible to say.  I literally have years of full-time volunteer experience- just one piece of the pie.
> I am applying for mechanical engineering so I thought my certificate in welding from my local college might also be relevant. Again, more material for your interview.
> 
> Thanks



In summary, everything you've posted here looks pretty good and makes you look good.  What you've neglected is your CFAT- you either pass it and qualify or you don't.  If you pass it, you can move on.  If you don't, your file doesn't go anywhere until you DO pass it.  Nobody here knows if you interview well, if you're going to have studied up on your trades, if you'll be able to make a solid case for yourself as a future officer- a solid enough case to beat out the many other applicants for the spot you want.  Who knows, your medical might even bring to light some problems that you're not aware of.  

Stay positive, work hard, and edit/review your application 1000 times when you do fill it out, because their decision will be made solely on your application, your interview, and your test scores.  THAT is what will decide your chances of getting accepted.   Not how many great high school memories you have.

Good luck.


----------



## Strike

Sapper01 said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to be a troll but being in french immersion doesn't automatically make you bilingual. GRANT IT - if you've been in it long enough or you are exception, then it is entirely possible that you are bilingual. But a french immersion certificate won't get you out of FSL training (I checked). Typically they decide how french you are.
> 
> Best of luck though.



However, if your mother tongue is french, you could put that as your primary language.  But be prepared to take your classes in that language.

Unless you were in a pure french school (immersion is not that) then I would avoid that route because it can bite you in the rear-end later on in life.


----------



## Knight13

I am currently in grade 10 (second semester) and I have always wanted to be in the military but I never thought about officer until recently.  My grade 9 marks were disappointing with a 69 average both semesters (all academic classes)...Its not that I didn't understand the work it's just that since it was my first year of high school, I was more focused on not becoming a loner.  I improved in my first semester this year, actually scoring 100 % on my academic history exam and an 85 % (much to my surprise) on my academic English exam.  I did not get a very high average because I nearly failed my art class, which made my average a 79 %.  Art class was easy, it was just so boring to me (mandatory class) and I didn't want to be there so I didn't try. I love math and physics and I plan on taking aeronautical engineering if I am accepted,  I'm sitting at a 90 in math and expect to be in the 80's for science (but I'm striving for 90's.)  I am a Flight Corporal in Air Cadets and have been doing martial arts and boxing/wrestling for 2 years,  I plan on joining student council and also volunteering around my community and school when I am not working, I am also in excellent physical shape (if it matters.)  I plan on applying for ROTP as a junior the first week of my grade 12 year as I will still be 16 for a week.

         My questions are, is it to late to get my marks up and be a strong/competitive applicant for RMC?  What could I do to improve my application? Should I apply as a junior or wait until I am finished University Physics, University Calculus and Advanced Functions etc to have a better application?

Thank you for your time and answers. 

-Conlan


----------



## yoman

Knight13 said:
			
		

> My questions are, is it to late to get my marks up and be a strong/competitive applicant for RMC?  What could I do to improve my application? Should I apply as a junior or wait until I am finished University Physics, University Calculus and Advanced Functions etc to have a better application?



Your average is already good but keep working hard to improve it. This is obviously also important for other university's you apply for as well. In terms of improving your application, just keeping busy and involved is a good start. Having a job, volunteering and playing sports (preferably team sports) is a good start. It show's that you can manage the many different pressures and stresses that you will experience at RMC and as a member of the Canadian Forces.  

As for when you should apply, its still very early but generally you apply sometime during the first semester of grade 12. Do not apply as a junior simply because of the fact you haven't taken some courses yet. Most people applying for RMC will be in the same situation as you and won't have those courses completed (assuming its the grade 12 versions). Evaluate yourself when the time comes to apply and seek the advise from the recruiters. 

Please remember that applying and getting accepted as a junior ROTP means that you be sent to RMC St-Jean for at least one year. The extra year is meant to improve your academic abilities so that your ready for the university level courses at RMC. Going this route also adds one year to your stay through the RMC system (5 years vs 4 going through normal route).


----------

