# light bns



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:47:43 -0500*
Canada does not have a distinct light infantry doctrine. The "light"
battalions are primarily "light" in terms of major equipments more than in
any other particular aspect. When tasked with UN rotations, the "light"
battalions are trained and equipped to take over the deployed equipments.
While it is true that the "light" battalions have the parachute companies,
this is limited to one sub-unit only and even that amount of capability may
be decreased in future.
As to comparing the battalions for prospective postings, that is a difficult
question. I have done regimental time with 2RCR in Gagetown and with 1RCR
when it was in London. I found 2RCR to be an excellent posting for a soldier
or young officer looking to spend a lot of time practicing his trade. We
were often detached in support of CTC courses as enemy or friendly assets at
the platoon  and company level. We also had the distinct advantage over
London in those days of an immediately adjacent training area. 1  3 RCR
are now both in Petawawa. They have the nearby training area, but the only
training is driven by the battalion or brigade, so there is not as great a
range of unique opportunities for individual platoons.
Some of the other criteria that should also be considered are location and
amenities. Petawawa is isolated in the Ottawa valley with not much
surrounding infrastructure or population i.e., women to occupy the many
single soldiers looking for diversion, Ottawa is 2 hours away. Gagetown is
thirty minutes from Fredericton, which is a nice university town, and if
you‘re looking for more, only 4.5 hours from Halifax.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter deVries 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Officers/NCO‘s.
> DO you know the differences in the roles of light infantry and mechanized
> infantry? If you were to suggest a battalion in the RCR which one would
you
> say would be the best one to try to get into. I realize that you can‘t
> always pick what battalion you want to go to, but if you were to recommend
> one, which one would you say?
> Thanks,
> Peter
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Garett Hallman <ghallman@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Wed, 27 Dec 2000 01:59:37 -0400*
Yes the CFB Gagetown All Ranks Mess located in Fredericton and also known as
Sweetwaters is a definite plus to being posted to 2 RCR or 4 ESR, 4 AD.
Fredericton has a pretty good night life which is fueled by the military in the
summer with many Newfies and Capers going spend crazy since its their first time
off the islands.  I‘ll never forget the reaction of some of the guys from Cape
Breton when I drove them into Fredericton their first time.  Guess I‘ve been
living here to long, they were fascinated by the city and wanted to move here.
The only thing bad about being posted to Gagetown is that nothing goes on in
Oromocto at all unless you‘re into the Camelot on Friday nights which would make
me question your morals.  Its a 20 minute drive into downtown Fredericton and a
$20 taxi ride.  Still from what I‘ve heard Petawawa is a hole compared to
Fredericton.
PS: Stay away from the university girls they‘re mine
Mike Oleary wrote:
> Canada does not have a distinct light infantry doctrine. The "light"
> battalions are primarily "light" in terms of major equipments more than in
> any other particular aspect. When tasked with UN rotations, the "light"
> battalions are trained and equipped to take over the deployed equipments.
>
> While it is true that the "light" battalions have the parachute companies,
> this is limited to one sub-unit only and even that amount of capability may
> be decreased in future.
>
> As to comparing the battalions for prospective postings, that is a difficult
> question. I have done regimental time with 2RCR in Gagetown and with 1RCR
> when it was in London. I found 2RCR to be an excellent posting for a soldier
> or young officer looking to spend a lot of time practicing his trade. We
> were often detached in support of CTC courses as enemy or friendly assets at
> the platoon  and company level. We also had the distinct advantage over
> London in those days of an immediately adjacent training area. 1  3 RCR
> are now both in Petawawa. They have the nearby training area, but the only
> training is driven by the battalion or brigade, so there is not as great a
> range of unique opportunities for individual platoons.
>
> Some of the other criteria that should also be considered are location and
> amenities. Petawawa is isolated in the Ottawa valley with not much
> surrounding infrastructure or population i.e., women to occupy the many
> single soldiers looking for diversion, Ottawa is 2 hours away. Gagetown is
> thirty minutes from Fredericton, which is a nice university town, and if
> you‘re looking for more, only 4.5 hours from Halifax.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter deVries 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Officers/NCO‘s.
>
> > DO you know the differences in the roles of light infantry and mechanized
> > infantry? If you were to suggest a battalion in the RCR which one would
> you
> > say would be the best one to try to get into. I realize that you can‘t
> > always pick what battalion you want to go to, but if you were to recommend
> > one, which one would you say?
> > Thanks,
> > Peter
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Wed, 27 Dec 2000 01:22:30 -0500*
Its got to bve at least 25 years, but I too, took long flights to Charm
School in Gagetown, and on the way, experienced Fredricton and Oromocto.
One time through Oromocto, with five weeks in field conditions, including,
but not limited to, an RCR Captain shooting deer through our night
exerciseyeah he got one of them, instead of one of us, we got weekend
leave to go whoop it up in camp.
Well big deal...Oromocto was at best a disappointment...so we went to the
shady delights that Fredricton might offer much like going to Moose Jaw for
esoteric entertainment
Of the day, we went to the alluring Lions Club, or something like that,
arriving at 1930 to ensure we did not miss any "action"...pity us...by about
2100hrs, the grass widows started in, with the husband‘s or boyfiend‘s
affiliation tattooed upon their foreheads...but would we buy drinks?
Our platoon agreed that if you came out of the field, got paid, went to
town, did not get screwed, did not get drunk, and got ripped for a pile of
money, well, you were "Oromuctoed"!
The Messes in Pet seemed a little more lively, strip clubs in Pembroke were
at least a distraction.  Suicide Hill is a bitch to run up or down.  Us
Prairie types found the terrain challenging to "fight" through they don‘t
like you to spread your men out, just because the trees stop..everythings a
defile drill...
Cannot imagine what your Newf‘s and Capers would do if "marooned" in
Calgary, Winnipeg, Victoria, or an assrtment of other cities...
Watched the CAR go thru the Queens Hotel in Saskatoon one night many years
ago...the Orderly Sgt walked in, bashed his stick on a table, and said "Get
your asses out."..a deuce and a half convoy pulled up, and everyone no I
was not one of them evacuated to the Queens, across the street...
Next door was the infamous "Saskatoon" with the first ‘Off-sale" back
door...if you went in there an easy rider rifle rack of baseball bats, for
when the company got too rowdy....
And we won‘t go further, though there‘s a lot more...
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Garett Hallman" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: light bns  RCR bns
> Yes the CFB Gagetown All Ranks Mess located in Fredericton and also known
as
> Sweetwaters is a definite plus to being posted to 2 RCR or 4 ESR, 4 AD.
> Fredericton has a pretty good night life which is fueled by the military
in the
> summer with many Newfies and Capers going spend crazy since its their
first time
> off the islands.  I‘ll never forget the reaction of some of the guys from
Cape
> Breton when I drove them into Fredericton their first time.  Guess I‘ve
been
> living here to long, they were fascinated by the city and wanted to move
here.
> The only thing bad about being posted to Gagetown is that nothing goes on
in
> Oromocto at all unless you‘re into the Camelot on Friday nights which
would make
> me question your morals.  Its a 20 minute drive into downtown Fredericton
and a
> $20 taxi ride.  Still from what I‘ve heard Petawawa is a hole compared to
> Fredericton.
>
> PS: Stay away from the university girls they‘re mine
>
> Mike Oleary wrote:
>
> > Canada does not have a distinct light infantry doctrine. The "light"
> > battalions are primarily "light" in terms of major equipments more than
in
> > any other particular aspect. When tasked with UN rotations, the "light"
> > battalions are trained and equipped to take over the deployed
equipments.
> >
> > While it is true that the "light" battalions have the parachute
companies,
> > this is limited to one sub-unit only and even that amount of capability
may
> > be decreased in future.
> >
> > As to comparing the battalions for prospective postings, that is a
difficult
> > question. I have done regimental time with 2RCR in Gagetown and with
1RCR
> > when it was in London. I found 2RCR to be an excellent posting for a
soldier
> > or young officer looking to spend a lot of time practicing his trade. We
> > were often detached in support of CTC courses as enemy or friendly
assets at
> > the platoon  and company level. We also had the distinct advantage over
> > London in those days of an immediately adjacent training area. 1  3
RCR
> > are now both in Petawawa. They have the nearby training area, but the
only
> > training is driven by the battalion or brigade, so there is not as great
a
> > range of unique opportunities for individual platoons.
> >
> > Some of the other criteria that should also be considered are location
and
> > amenities. Petawawa is isolated in the Ottawa valley with not much
> > surrounding infrastructure or population i.e., women to occupy the
many
> > single soldiers looking for diversion, Ottawa is 2 hours away. Gagetown
is
> > thirty minutes from Fredericton, which is a nice university town, and if
> > you‘re looking for more, only 4.5 hours from Halifax.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Peter deVries 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: Officers/NCO‘s.
> >
> > > DO you know the differences in the roles of light infantry and
mechanized
> > > infantry? If you were to suggest a battalion in the RCR which one
would
> > you
> > > say would be the best one to try to get into. I realize that you can‘t
> > > always pick what battalion you want to go to, but if you were to
recommend
> > > one, which one would you say?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Peter
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Herseyda@aol.com* on *Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:20:43 EST*
Hello,
Good point.  Light battalions, in the CF, are determined by their equipment 
no AVGP, tracks, ect...  Second, I have  friends in 3PPCLI, and 3RCR and 
there is talk of or rumors disbanding the jump companies.  I hope this is 
not true, however.  Does anybody have information on this?
In many respects reserve infantry units train to fill the light infantry 
role.  This from my experience has lead to some troubles when reservist train 
to fill a mechanized infantry role for an operational tasking.  However, 
these troubles are usually addressed in run up training.
On a final note, there seems to be a shift in parts of the CF towards FIBUA 
training, and urban operations.  I know that 41st brg. and 1st CMBG new focus 
of training is on FIBUA.  Has anybody have any news on this??
Thank you,
David
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:54:09 -0700*
Question for Mike O‘Leary:
What percentage of Lts/Capts on the RCR "list" are actually posted within
one of the three bns at any given time? Just approx. numbers asked for.
Why am I asking? Well, many of the remainder are posted-out to non "command"
roles yes, these too can be significant and fulfilling but many are not in
command of infantry soldiers in an infy role. What I am trying to say is
that a person considering a long term career as an infy pl or coy "leader"
as an officer must realize that after a period of time he is likely to be
posted-out for most or all of his remaining career.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Oleary 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 6:47 PM
Subject: light bns  RCR bns
> Canada does not have a distinct light infantry doctrine. The "light"
> battalions are primarily "light" in terms of major equipments more than in
> any other particular aspect. When tasked with UN rotations, the "light"
> battalions are trained and equipped to take over the deployed equipments.
>
> While it is true that the "light" battalions have the parachute companies,
> this is limited to one sub-unit only and even that amount of capability
may
> be decreased in future.
>
> As to comparing the battalions for prospective postings, that is a
difficult
> question. I have done regimental time with 2RCR in Gagetown and with 1RCR
> when it was in London. I found 2RCR to be an excellent posting for a
soldier
> or young officer looking to spend a lot of time practicing his trade. We
> were often detached in support of CTC courses as enemy or friendly assets
at
> the platoon  and company level. We also had the distinct advantage over
> London in those days of an immediately adjacent training area. 1  3 RCR
> are now both in Petawawa. They have the nearby training area, but the only
> training is driven by the battalion or brigade, so there is not as great a
> range of unique opportunities for individual platoons.
>
> Some of the other criteria that should also be considered are location and
> amenities. Petawawa is isolated in the Ottawa valley with not much
> surrounding infrastructure or population i.e., women to occupy the many
> single soldiers looking for diversion, Ottawa is 2 hours away. Gagetown
is
> thirty minutes from Fredericton, which is a nice university town, and if
> you‘re looking for more, only 4.5 hours from Halifax.
>
> Mike
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Peter deVries 
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Officers/NCO‘s.
>
> > DO you know the differences in the roles of light infantry and
mechanized
> > infantry? If you were to suggest a battalion in the RCR which one would
> you
> > say would be the best one to try to get into. I realize that you can‘t
> > always pick what battalion you want to go to, but if you were to
recommend
> > one, which one would you say?
> > Thanks,
> > Peter
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Wed, 27 Dec 2000 11:01:20 -0800*
>I know that 41st brg. and 1st CMBG new focus of training is on FIBUA.
Training throughout LFWA for this year is expected to emphasize the defensive
phase of war in general and FIBUA in particular.  Last year it was the offensive
phase of war.  Next year it will probably be something different.
Brad Sallows
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:29:36 -0500*
Without taking the time to define this exactly, a battalion will have
positions for about:
9 Lt platoon commanders 3 rifle coys
4 Lt/Capt support pl comds mortar, recce, pioneer, anti-armour
6? other Lt/Junior capt positions transport, IO, asst adjt, Mor Pl 2IC, Trg
O, recce det officers if any
5 Capt Coy 2ICs 3 rifle coys, Combat Sp Coy, Log Coy
2 senior Capt Adjt, Ops O
Lieutenants will remain in the battalion until promoted and then
subsequently posted though not necessarily in the same year to an
extra-regimental posting. 3-5 years in rank as a 2Lt/Lt is the norm.
For Captains, I don‘t have the precise figures, but let‘s say 12 captains on
regimental duty per battalion. That‘s  about 108 Captains on a merit list of
about 600 on regimental duty with the remainder on other employment
instructional, RSS, HQ staff, base staff, recruiting, etc.. Setting aside
those who, for whatever reasons, are unlikely to be gong back on regimental
duty, perhaps one in three is the actual ratio of regimental versus
extra-regimental postings for young captains.
It is true that an officer will normally spend most of their career outside
of regimental duty. There is no such thing as a "long term career"
commanding at the platoon or company level. And while an NCO may contrive to
remain a section commander for 10-15 years, at that point he may well have
closed the door on further career progression in any case.
As with many career choices, the actual job opportunities that are
highlighted to attract willing candidates is seldom the role which the
majority find themselves doing for the bulk of their career. After all, how
many candidates would we get if we listed actual activities in order of time
spent doing them rather than by their excitement factor.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Edwards 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: light bns  RCR bns
> Question for Mike O‘Leary:
>
> What percentage of Lts/Capts on the RCR "list" are actually posted within
> one of the three bns at any given time? Just approx. numbers asked for.
> Why am I asking? Well, many of the remainder are posted-out to non
"command"
> roles yes, these too can be significant and fulfilling but many are not
in
> command of infantry soldiers in an infy role. What I am trying to say is
> that a person considering a long term career as an infy pl or coy "leader"
> as an officer must realize that after a period of time he is likely to be
> posted-out for most or all of his remaining career.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Peter deVries" <rsm_kes_cc254@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:47:55 *
Mike,
    So what your saying is that the light infantry battalions would be 
mechanized if the army had enough vehicles? When they go overseas they are 
employed as mechanized infantry?
Peter
>From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: light bns  RCR bns
>Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:47:43 -0500
>
>Canada does not have a distinct light infantry doctrine. The "light"
>battalions are primarily "light" in terms of major equipments more than in
>any other particular aspect. When tasked with UN rotations, the "light"
>battalions are trained and equipped to take over the deployed equipments.
>
>While it is true that the "light" battalions have the parachute companies,
>this is limited to one sub-unit only and even that amount of capability may
>be decreased in future.
>
>As to comparing the battalions for prospective postings, that is a 
>difficult
>question. I have done regimental time with 2RCR in Gagetown and with 1RCR
>when it was in London. I found 2RCR to be an excellent posting for a 
>soldier
>or young officer looking to spend a lot of time practicing his trade. We
>were often detached in support of CTC courses as enemy or friendly assets 
>at
>the platoon  and company level. We also had the distinct advantage over
>London in those days of an immediately adjacent training area. 1  3 RCR
>are now both in Petawawa. They have the nearby training area, but the only
>training is driven by the battalion or brigade, so there is not as great a
>range of unique opportunities for individual platoons.
>
>Some of the other criteria that should also be considered are location and
>amenities. Petawawa is isolated in the Ottawa valley with not much
>surrounding infrastructure or population i.e., women to occupy the many
>single soldiers looking for diversion, Ottawa is 2 hours away. Gagetown is
>thirty minutes from Fredericton, which is a nice university town, and if
>you‘re looking for more, only 4.5 hours from Halifax.
>
>Mike
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Peter deVries 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 9:18 PM
>Subject: Re: Officers/NCO‘s.
>
> > DO you know the differences in the roles of light infantry and 
>mechanized
> > infantry? If you were to suggest a battalion in the RCR which one would
>you
> > say would be the best one to try to get into. I realize that you can‘t
> > always pick what battalion you want to go to, but if you were to 
>recommend
> > one, which one would you say?
> > Thanks,
> > Peter
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Wed, 27 Dec 2000 15:48:47 EST*
Well, that seems pretty disappointing.
Capt. O‘Leary, you said that there are many other ‘non-commanding‘ positions 
for infantry officers. Let‘s say that you are a relatively young officer, 
like a 2Lt/Lt/Junior Capt, and you were made to leave your field commandfor 
lack of proper term and were told you had to start doing a ‘service‘ type 
job for a specified amount of time.
Would you have any say as to which branch? I know I‘m using improper terms, 
but please bear with me. Now, could I say, "Sir, I‘d much prefer recruiting 
as to whatever." Or would it be "Bondy!- You‘re a recruiter!"
How would it work?
2ndly, let‘s say that in my eyes recruiting and field commands are the 
prefered jobs.
 What percent of my time do think I‘d be able to spend on those two mentioned 
things? So I‘m saying it‘s like  rcrting  field  vs.  other.
what percent of my time do you think I‘d get to spend on each?
    Sorry for not using the correct terminology, but if I knew the lingo, I‘d 
use it.
            -Matt B.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Pte Sean" <private_sean@budweiser.com>* on *27 Dec 2000 20:59:50 -0000*
39 brigade is also heavy into FIBUA...but I think we‘re only doing it for this current training year, I heard we are doing patrolling next year
Sean
On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 09:20:43 EST Herseyda@aol.com wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Good point.  Light battalions, in the CF, are determined by their equipment 
>no AVGP, tracks, ect...  Second, I have  friends in 3PPCLI, and 3RCR and 
>there is talk of or rumors disbanding the jump companies.  I hope this is 
>not true, however.  Does anybody have information on this?
>
>In many respects reserve infantry units train to fill the light infantry 
>role.  This from my experience has lead to some troubles when reservist train 
>to fill a mechanized infantry role for an operational tasking.  However, 
>these troubles are usually addressed in run up training.
>
>On a final note, there seems to be a shift in parts of the CF towards FIBUA 
>training, and urban operations.  I know that 41st brg. and 1st CMBG new focus 
>of training is on FIBUA.  Has anybody have any news on this??
>
>Thank you,
>David
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
>remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
>message body.
>
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 28 Dec 2000 00:15:00 -0500*
Basically, yes. If we had allocated the money for sufficient carriers, then
we would probably have also equipped these battalions. And when they area
tasked overseas they are equipped to do the same tasks as the others.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter deVries 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: light bns  RCR bns
> Mike,
>     So what your saying is that the light infantry battalions would be
> mechanized if the army had enough vehicles? When they go overseas they are
> employed as mechanized infantry?
> Peter
>
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 28 Dec 2000 00:34:56 -0500*
When an infantry officer changes from platoon commanding to other duties,
he/she stays Infantry. You do not change cap badge or regimental
affiliations because you are doing a job other than in a command position.
Also, officers who are liable to be posted are allowed to identify their
preferred locations and types of employment. These are considered by the
Career Managers and COs in making recommendations for postings, but not
everyone get what they desire every time.
Each posting is 3-5 years long. A generic career profile might go as
follows:
1.    Regimental Duty 3-5 yrs
            2Lt 1 yr,
            Lt 2-3 yr - rifle pl comd,
            Capt 1-2 yr - sp pl comd Recce/Mortar/Pioneer/Anti-Armour or
bn staff Transport, IO, Asst Adjt
    May include:
        Specialist course like an advanced weapons qualification, IO‘s crse,
NBCW crse, etc.
        Intermediate Officer Course - Intro to Cbt Tm/Battle Group level
tactics
        OPDP - officer professional Development programs Exams self-study
packages
2.    Extra-regimental Duty 3-5 yrs
            Capt RSS, recruiting, base or HQ staff
         May include attendance on Land Force Staff Course in Kingston At
the Army‘s staff college, not RMC. these courses are being rewritten as we
speak
3.    Regimental Duty 3-5 yrs
            Capt Sp Pl Comd, Coy 2IC, Adjt, Ops O - appointments
dependent on seniority and qualifications
          May include attendance on Land Force Command and Staff Course
required before promotion to Maj at Kingston these courses are being
rewritten as we speak
4.    Extra-regimental Duty
            Capt Brigade or Area HQ senior staff capt, school or trg centre
standards, base ops
At this point a Capt may either be in line for a promotion and return to
regimental duty as a Company Commander, or he may see further rotations of
steps 2 and 4. There is no "ideal" or "normal" career profile, this was
emphasized a few years ago when the Career Managers stopped showing such a
chart at their annual briefings. They just took too much flak because
no-one in the room matched the ‘model."
As to what percentage of time you might spend doing certain types of
employment, that is impossible to define.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> Well, that seems pretty disappointing.
> Capt. O‘Leary, you said that there are many other ‘non-commanding‘
positions
> for infantry officers. Let‘s say that you are a relatively young officer,
> like a 2Lt/Lt/Junior Capt, and you were made to leave your field
commandfor
> lack of proper term and were told you had to start doing a ‘service‘ type
> job for a specified amount of time.
> Would you have any say as to which branch? I know I‘m using improper
terms,
> but please bear with me. Now, could I say, "Sir, I‘d much prefer
recruiting
> as to whatever." Or would it be "Bondy!- You‘re a recruiter!"
> How would it work?
> 2ndly, let‘s say that in my eyes recruiting and field commands are the
> prefered jobs.
>  What percent of my time do think I‘d be able to spend on those two
mentioned
> things? So I‘m saying it‘s like  rcrting  field  vs.  other.
> what percent of my time do you think I‘d get to spend on each?
>     Sorry for not using the correct terminology, but if I knew the lingo,
I‘d
> use it.
>             -Matt B.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Peter deVries" <rsm_kes_cc254@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 28 Dec 2000 05:46:58 *
Okay Mike,
    Thanks for the info,
Peter
>From: m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary
>Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Re: light bns  RCR bns
>Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 00:15:00 -0500
>
>Basically, yes. If we had allocated the money for sufficient carriers, then
>we would probably have also equipped these battalions. And when they area
>tasked overseas they are equipped to do the same tasks as the others.
>
>Mike
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Peter deVries 
>To: 
>Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 8:47 PM
>Subject: Re: light bns  RCR bns
>
>
> > Mike,
> >     So what your saying is that the light infantry battalions would be
> > mechanized if the army had enough vehicles? When they go overseas they 
>are
> > employed as mechanized infantry?
> > Peter
> >
>
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *DHall058@aol.com* on *Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:43:18 EST*
Mike, I infer from your outline of a "typical" career progression for an 
infantry officer or as we Tankers called them..."earth pigs", that there is 
no "up or out" policy in the Canadian Forces, as is practiced in the USA. Is 
that correct?  Generally, that policy insured that well-trained soldiers, 
NCOs, and company-level officers would have to leave off doing what they 
really enjoyed, simply to pursue higher rank. We lost a lot of experience 
that way, not to mention the negative impact it had on unit cohesiveness. 
While in theory it forces a constant renewal of talent, and brings out the 
"best and the brightest" to higher levels, not everyone is suited for Colonel 
or Sergeant Major rank.
Comments?
Dave Hall 
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:32:55 -0500*
You are correct Dave, there is no "up or out" policy for the Canadian
Forces. Between the Career Managers projections for each trade and the
Recruiting system‘s efforts, they hope to balance attrition by all release
mechanisms and keep a consistent flow of new members as needed.
A few years ago a program called the "Force Reduction Program" FRP was
used to reduce numbers for certain trades although few officer
classifications and no combat arms trades were included. The FRP gave a
golden handshake to personnel who were willing to take early release. In my
opinion this effort, to a degree, backfired. Some of those who left were the
very capable ones who were not intimidated by the opportunity to start a new
career, taking with them a healthy buy-out benefit package. Others who
remained did so because they preferred the shelter of long-term military
contractual employment. This comparison certainly does not apply to all who
left, or to all who stayed, in those trade/rank groups that were affected,
but in contrast to the US Army‘s "up or out" policy it does offer food for
thought on the potential results of voluntary departure plans vice
compulsory ones.
While I don‘t necessarily agree with the approach of either plan as a
perfect solution, if reductions are essential then sending away the lower
end of the merit list with benefits to reduce the deleterious effects of
dismissal is probably a healthier approach for the system than any other.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> Mike, I infer from your outline of a "typical" career progression for an
> infantry officer or as we Tankers called them..."earth pigs", that there
is
> no "up or out" policy in the Canadian Forces, as is practiced in the USA.
Is
> that correct?  Generally, that policy insured that well-trained soldiers,
> NCOs, and company-level officers would have to leave off doing what they
> really enjoyed, simply to pursue higher rank. We lost a lot of experience
> that way, not to mention the negative impact it had on unit cohesiveness.
> While in theory it forces a constant renewal of talent, and brings out the
> "best and the brightest" to higher levels, not everyone is suited for
Colonel
> or Sergeant Major rank.
> Comments?
> Dave Hall
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *DHall058@aol.com* on *Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:27:43 EST*
Thanks, Mike...I agree that some kind of amalgam would be preferable to the 
current programs. The US Forces did offer an early retirement, with 
diminished benefits, in the early 1990s.  It had much the same effect you 
described, with some of the best folks departing at all levels. Now we are 
experiencing a severe shortage of company grade officers and senior NCOs...
I appreciate the insight into Canada‘s approach.
Dave
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Fri, 29 Dec 2000 20:39:29 -0700*
In the CF, many excellent officers retire at 55 having reached the exotic
rank of Captain.  Many NCOs retire as Sergeants, Master Corporals or
Corporals.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> Mike, I infer from your outline of a "typical" career progression for an
> infantry officer or as we Tankers called them..."earth pigs", that there
is
> no "up or out" policy in the Canadian Forces, as is practiced in the USA.
Is
> that correct?  Generally, that policy insured that well-trained soldiers,
> NCOs, and company-level officers would have to leave off doing what they
> really enjoyed, simply to pursue higher rank. We lost a lot of experience
> that way, not to mention the negative impact it had on unit cohesiveness.
> While in theory it forces a constant renewal of talent, and brings out the
> "best and the brightest" to higher levels, not everyone is suited for
Colonel
> or Sergeant Major rank.
> Comments?
> Dave Hall
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Sat, 30 Dec 2000 21:50:01 EST*
Mr Schepens,
                In my inexperience, I don‘t quite understand how an 
‘excellent‘ officer could retire as Captain, or an ‘excellent‘ NCO could 
retire a Corporal or MCpl.
If they were that excellent, wouldn‘t their commanders want to put them in a 
position  which would involve them leading larger groups of people? Usually, 
if a serviceman is great, and he stays a junior rank even at the end of his 
service days, would that be because he wanted to stay a junior rank?
    -Matt B.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:04:40 -0700*
I guess that the difference is that in the Canadian Military, there is no up
or out.  Mnay people remain in jobs and positions that they enjoy.
Don Schepens
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> Mr Schepens,
>                 In my inexperience, I don‘t quite understand how an
> ‘excellent‘ officer could retire as Captain, or an ‘excellent‘ NCO could
> retire a Corporal or MCpl.
> If they were that excellent, wouldn‘t their commanders want to put them in
a
> position  which would involve them leading larger groups of people?
Usually,
> if a serviceman is great, and he stays a junior rank even at the end of
his
> service days, would that be because he wanted to stay a junior rank?
>     -Matt B.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Sat, 30 Dec 2000 20:58:31 -0700*
I guess that the other thing you have to realize, is that our army and
indeed whole military is much much smaller than yours.  In many ways, you
have to wait for someone to die before you can be promoted.  Thats not
strictly true, but it often seems that way.  The American military indeed
has an up or out system.
I would invite other members of this BB to comment on this.  For what its
worth, I was a Sgt, was CFRed Commissioned From the Ranks with 3 university
degrees and am now a Lieutenant Colonel and Commanding Officer of a unit.
Everyday I see people with the ability to lead and do great things, but I
have no where to place them.
Don Schepens
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Schepens 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> I guess that the difference is that in the Canadian Military, there is no
up
> or out.  Mnay people remain in jobs and positions that they enjoy.
>
> Don Schepens
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 7:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
>
>
> > Mr Schepens,
> >                 In my inexperience, I don‘t quite understand how an
> > ‘excellent‘ officer could retire as Captain, or an ‘excellent‘ NCO could
> > retire a Corporal or MCpl.
> > If they were that excellent, wouldn‘t their commanders want to put them
in
> a
> > position  which would involve them leading larger groups of people?
> Usually,
> > if a serviceman is great, and he stays a junior rank even at the end of
> his
> > service days, would that be because he wanted to stay a junior rank?
> >     -Matt B.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Gow" <jgow@home.com>* on *Sat, 30 Dec 2000 23:18:58 -0500*
The government "freeze" on promotion and pay increases doesn‘t help, does it
Don?
Once "stuck" into the NCM role, it can be incredibly difficult to get into
an officer role.
MCpls, Sgts, WOs and MWOs  not even touching CWO‘s, those dangerous and
unpredictable creatures...apt to gore any around them... may be respected
and/or disliked in their jobs...by officers...and their elevation to
commissioned and, I don‘t believe, is always enoyed by their new peers,
though it is enjoyed by the NCM‘s that see them there...
And, as hard as it undoubtably is to transition from Jr NCO to Sr NCO and,
yes, Matt, here‘s where a lot of fine people can get hung upaside from the
vacancy rate it is probably harder to go "Officer" after being a Sr NCO
I‘m speculating...Don and I did some good years together, but he‘s way
smarter than me...and richly deserves where he is, if not better, you
Lurkers!many of our problems boil dry to HR...and Don‘s an EXPERT!
In my own opinion, Canada cannot afford an "Up or Out" policy.  We don‘t, as
I‘ve seen it, have the bodies.
I cannot quite see, after the Quebec floods, the Ice Storm, and the Red
River debacle, where the Canadian public does not know and appreciate if
not love their military...BoxTop 22, seizure of the ship with our
equipment, etc etc, the military is in the news often enough...why can‘t we
just pay them, and equip them?
Chretien, are you listening?
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald Schepens" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 10:58 PM
Subject: Fw: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> I guess that the other thing you have to realize, is that our army and
> indeed whole military is much much smaller than yours.  In many ways, you
> have to wait for someone to die before you can be promoted.  Thats not
> strictly true, but it often seems that way.  The American military indeed
> has an up or out system.
>
> I would invite other members of this BB to comment on this.  For what its
> worth, I was a Sgt, was CFRed Commissioned From the Ranks with 3
university
> degrees and am now a Lieutenant Colonel and Commanding Officer of a unit.
> Everyday I see people with the ability to lead and do great things, but I
> have no where to place them.
>
> Don Schepens
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Donald Schepens 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 8:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
>
>
> > I guess that the difference is that in the Canadian Military, there is
no
> up
> > or out.  Mnay people remain in jobs and positions that they enjoy.
> >
> > Don Schepens
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 7:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> >
> >
> > > Mr Schepens,
> > >                 In my inexperience, I don‘t quite understand how an
> > > ‘excellent‘ officer could retire as Captain, or an ‘excellent‘ NCO
could
> > > retire a Corporal or MCpl.
> > > If they were that excellent, wouldn‘t their commanders want to put
them
> in
> > a
> > > position  which would involve them leading larger groups of people?
> > Usually,
> > > if a serviceman is great, and he stays a junior rank even at the end
of
> > his
> > > service days, would that be because he wanted to stay a junior rank?
> > >     -Matt B.
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
>
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *DHall058@aol.com* on *Sun, 31 Dec 2000 03:02:05 EST*
If I could jump in here, one of the downsides to the "up or out" policy that 
we have is that excellent captains and mid-level NCOs, not to mention 
privates, are forced out of doing the jobs they are excellent at.  Not 
everyone "has a field marshal‘s baton in their knapsack", despite what Lord 
Wellington said. In the US Army, just when many company commanders normally 
captains or 1st Lieutenants are becoming proficient at that assignment, they 
are forced to attend Command and General Staff College, then not command 
again until after promotion to Lieutenant Colonel.  Same rotation exists for 
squad leaders, platoon sergeants, first sergeants, and God help the 
infantryman/tanker/gun bunny that actually wants to make a career of doing 
just that.  While there needs to be a way to avoid total stagnation, finding 
a balanced system that retains the competent soldiers in the lower ranks is a 
good goal.  That‘s where the Canadian Army has the right idea...At least 
from my "outside looking in" perspective!
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"William J <andy> Anderson" <aanderson@sk.sympatico.ca>* on *Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:24:19 -0700*
I‘m not really sure if I understand this thread.
Most people equate promotion with some sort of reward for a good job and
that certainly hurts the army. I‘ve seen excellent corporals be promoted to
MCpl only to flounder as a leader. They were far better off as a hard
working and dedicated soldiers and should have been made to understand that
by their leaders.
When I joined in the mid ‘60s there were tons of old
Privates/gunners/craftsmen around and they were all happy. Most of them had
Korea ribbons on. They came to work every day and did a first rate job. I
think we made a mistake with the Hellyer Corporal and washed out this first
very effective command rank. Then we‘d sew a little crown over the chevrons
and called it Master Cpl. At first it just went with the job  and one could lose it upon being posted to another unit. The extra
pay was mimimal 10 bucks I think and a truckload of resposiblity.
Somebody said that CWO‘s are apt to gore any around, perhaps they were
right. I made it there without goring anyone. Mostly by luck, circumstance
of employment, some fine training and of course I outlived all those who I
pissed off over the years. That being said, I was always happy at every job
and at every rank. My early army upbringing taught me that there was no
shame to be attached to being passed over.
I think it is time for soldiers to come to the harsh realisation that
promotion cannot be a reward for hard work and dedication. This has to be
done as part of education and the ne‘erdowells and bellyachers have to step
aside. Line up 100 recuruits and point to the RSM, or 100 cadets at Mil Col
and chat about the CLS. Make no bones about the fact that perhaps one person
of each group will make it to the top and that is it. Too bad, so sad. The
recruits and cadets won‘t harbour the idea that those jobs are easily
attainable and at the same time there is no shame in not making it to those
lofty heights.
Those who have read about the ‘Peter Principal‘ will tend to agree with it
and have probably been a witness to it in action. The money is not great for
a 15 year Captain or 20 year Master Corporal, but then again it is not so
bad. There are tons of jobs on Civie street that promotion is not an issue
and folks do just fine.
During PER interviews it is appaling to tell a soldier that he should be
promoted but gov‘t/regiment/canadians won‘t allow it. I think it is much
better to find other ways to motivate soldiers to ‘continue‘ doing a bang up
job and dispell the fact that chevrons are reward for doing good work. A
plum posting would be a much better reward.
I will admit that the army needs keen compitition in order for the cream to
rise to the top. This will ensure that our leaders are the best that we can
have. With that admission comes the even harder job of motivating soldiers
to continue with their dedication without the ‘carrot‘ of a promotion being
held out. 
For those prospective soldiers that read this mail list: look around at
other jobs available. If you build cars for GM there is not much chance of
becoming the CEO nor will you likely be the head of an insurance firm if you
work for one. That is just the way life is. The army is not much different.
I‘ve always been an advocate for quality of life for soldiers, rather than
holding out false promises. And .. ya know what? The quality of life in the
army ain‘t all that bad.
arte et marte
anderson sends:
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Sun, 31 Dec 2000 13:20:28 -0700*
Very well said, Sir, and I had been thinking the same thing. I was also
thinking "Peter Principle" as I read, until, indeed, you mentioned it. For
those of you who don‘t know, the Peter Principle basically says if you
promote somebody enough, you will eventually promote them beyond their
actual capabilities. That‘s my interpretation, anyway. My Dad was a CWO, and
often ranted on the Hellyer BS, also.
Ubique
MacF
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
"The older I grow, the more I listen to people who don‘t say much."
--Germain G. Glidden
----- Original Message -----
From: "William J  Anderson" 
To: "army@cipherlogic.on.ca" 
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 12:24 PM
Subject: My last rant for 2000 was: Re Infantry Officer Employment, wasRe:
light bns  RCR bns
> I‘m not really sure if I understand this thread.
>
> Most people equate promotion with some sort of reward for a good job and
> that certainly hurts the army. I‘ve seen excellent corporals be promoted
to
> MCpl only to flounder as a leader. They were far better off as a hard
> working and dedicated soldiers and should have been made to understand
that
> by their leaders.
>
>
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:05:06 -0700*
Geez John, I‘ll wind up with a swelled head.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: Gow 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> The government "freeze" on promotion and pay increases doesn‘t help, does
it
> Don?
>
> Once "stuck" into the NCM role, it can be incredibly difficult to get into
> an officer role.
>
> MCpls, Sgts, WOs and MWOs  not even touching CWO‘s, those dangerous and
> unpredictable creatures...apt to gore any around them... may be respected
> and/or disliked in their jobs...by officers...and their elevation to
> commissioned and, I don‘t believe, is always enoyed by their new peers,
> though it is enjoyed by the NCM‘s that see them there...
>
> And, as hard as it undoubtably is to transition from Jr NCO to Sr NCO
and,
> yes, Matt, here‘s where a lot of fine people can get hung upaside from
the
> vacancy rate it is probably harder to go "Officer" after being a Sr NCO
> I‘m speculating...Don and I did some good years together, but he‘s way
> smarter than me...and richly deserves where he is, if not better, you
> Lurkers!many of our problems boil dry to HR...and Don‘s an EXPERT!
>
> In my own opinion, Canada cannot afford an "Up or Out" policy.  We don‘t,
as
> I‘ve seen it, have the bodies.
>
> I cannot quite see, after the Quebec floods, the Ice Storm, and the Red
> River debacle, where the Canadian public does not know and appreciate if
> not love their military...BoxTop 22, seizure of the ship with our
> equipment, etc etc, the military is in the news often enough...why can‘t
we
> just pay them, and equip them?
>
> Chretien, are you listening?
>
> John
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Donald Schepens" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 10:58 PM
> Subject: Fw: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
>
>
> > I guess that the other thing you have to realize, is that our army and
> > indeed whole military is much much smaller than yours.  In many ways,
you
> > have to wait for someone to die before you can be promoted.  Thats not
> > strictly true, but it often seems that way.  The American military
indeed
> > has an up or out system.
> >
> > I would invite other members of this BB to comment on this.  For what
its
> > worth, I was a Sgt, was CFRed Commissioned From the Ranks with 3
> university
> > degrees and am now a Lieutenant Colonel and Commanding Officer of a
unit.
> > Everyday I see people with the ability to lead and do great things, but
I
> > have no where to place them.
> >
> > Don Schepens
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Donald Schepens 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 8:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> >
> >
> > > I guess that the difference is that in the Canadian Military, there is
> no
> > up
> > > or out.  Mnay people remain in jobs and positions that they enjoy.
> > >
> > > Don Schepens
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 7:50 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Infantry Officer Employment, was Re: light bns  RCR bns
> > >
> > >
> > > > Mr Schepens,
> > > >                 In my inexperience, I don‘t quite understand how an
> > > > ‘excellent‘ officer could retire as Captain, or an ‘excellent‘ NCO
> could
> > > > retire a Corporal or MCpl.
> > > > If they were that excellent, wouldn‘t their commanders want to put
> them
> > in
> > > a
> > > > position  which would involve them leading larger groups of people?
> > > Usually,
> > > > if a serviceman is great, and he stays a junior rank even at the end
> of
> > > his
> > > > service days, would that be because he wanted to stay a junior rank?
> > > >     -Matt B.
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com>* on *Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:07:20 -0700*
Hear, hear.
----- Original Message -----
From: William J  Anderson 
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2000 12:24 PM
Subject: My last rant for 2000 was: Re Infantry Officer Employment, wasRe:
light bns  RCR bns
> I‘m not really sure if I understand this thread.
>
> Most people equate promotion with some sort of reward for a good job and
> that certainly hurts the army. I‘ve seen excellent corporals be promoted
to
> MCpl only to flounder as a leader. They were far better off as a hard
> working and dedicated soldiers and should have been made to understand
that
> by their leaders.
>
> When I joined in the mid ‘60s there were tons of old
> Privates/gunners/craftsmen around and they were all happy. Most of them
had
> Korea ribbons on. They came to work every day and did a first rate job. I
> think we made a mistake with the Hellyer Corporal and washed out this
first
> very effective command rank. Then we‘d sew a little crown over the
chevrons
> and called it Master Cpl. At first it just went with the job  Corporal> and one could lose it upon being posted to another unit. The
extra
> pay was mimimal 10 bucks I think and a truckload of resposiblity.
>
> Somebody said that CWO‘s are apt to gore any around, perhaps they were
> right. I made it there without goring anyone. Mostly by luck, circumstance
> of employment, some fine training and of course I outlived all those who I
> pissed off over the years. That being said, I was always happy at every
job
> and at every rank. My early army upbringing taught me that there was no
> shame to be attached to being passed over.
>
> I think it is time for soldiers to come to the harsh realisation that
> promotion cannot be a reward for hard work and dedication. This has to be
> done as part of education and the ne‘erdowells and bellyachers have to
step
> aside. Line up 100 recuruits and point to the RSM, or 100 cadets at Mil
Col
> and chat about the CLS. Make no bones about the fact that perhaps one
person
> of each group will make it to the top and that is it. Too bad, so sad. The
> recruits and cadets won‘t harbour the idea that those jobs are easily
> attainable and at the same time there is no shame in not making it to
those
> lofty heights.
>
> Those who have read about the ‘Peter Principal‘ will tend to agree with it
> and have probably been a witness to it in action. The money is not great
for
> a 15 year Captain or 20 year Master Corporal, but then again it is not so
> bad. There are tons of jobs on Civie street that promotion is not an issue
> and folks do just fine.
>
> During PER interviews it is appaling to tell a soldier that he should be
> promoted but gov‘t/regiment/canadians won‘t allow it. I think it is much
> better to find other ways to motivate soldiers to ‘continue‘ doing a bang
up
> job and dispell the fact that chevrons are reward for doing good work. A
> plum posting would be a much better reward.
>
> I will admit that the army needs keen compitition in order for the cream
to
> rise to the top. This will ensure that our leaders are the best that we
can
> have. With that admission comes the even harder job of motivating soldiers
> to continue with their dedication without the ‘carrot‘ of a promotion
being
> held out.
>
> For those prospective soldiers that read this mail list: look around at
> other jobs available. If you build cars for GM there is not much chance of
> becoming the CEO nor will you likely be the head of an insurance firm if
you
> work for one. That is just the way life is. The army is not much
different.
>
> I‘ve always been an advocate for quality of life for soldiers, rather than
> holding out false promises. And .. ya know what? The quality of life in
the
> army ain‘t all that bad.
>
>
>
> arte et marte
>
> anderson sends:
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> message body.
>
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *CoastDanny@aol.com* on *Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:21:48 EST*
Matt:
I have to agree with L/Col. Schepens.  My father served until 1970 
ruinification that is not a typo. He used to refer to people as "Career 
Corporals". Back then I thought that was an insult, now I know better. There 
are, in any organization, leaders and followers. You cannot have a leader 
with out good followers. Why promote a great Corporal to a leadership role 
only to find out that "great follower" is a poor leader? Every unit needs 
"career corporals" people who know the job and are very good at it. They are 
the ones who continuously teach the new guys. They are the ones that the Sgt. 
or MCpl passes orders on to and knows the job will be done. Take a look at a 
civilian organization, the finance clerk who is 41 and still "only a clerk" 
or the shipper receiver who has been doing it for 24 years. These people make 
organizations work.  
The rush to promote is called the "Peter Principal", people rise to thier 
level of incompetancy. Instead of promotion for everyone, we need a "time in 
rank raise" to be more effective. 
I was an effective leader only because I had officers who were smart enough 
to let me do my job and junior ranks who knew their jobs and did not need 
thier hands held along the way.
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