# Fire breaks out at DND building in Gatineau



## acen (21 Apr 2016)

Looks like LSL is up for a little bit of a refit. Perhaps an earlier move to Carling?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/fire-louis-st-laurent-building-1.3546556


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## jollyjacktar (21 Apr 2016)

Roof has caved in behind where you see the damage on the front of the building.  It's going to leave a mark.


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## Occam (21 Apr 2016)

acen said:
			
		

> Looks like LSL is up for a little bit of a refit. Perhaps an earlier move to Carling?



455 de la Carriere and LStL are not moving to the Carling campus.  Or at least it wasn't planned...


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## Remius (21 Apr 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Roof has caved in behind where you see the damage on the front of the building.  It's going to leave a mark.



My understanding is that the roof was torn open to help vent the flames.  Either way this is going to take months to fix.  My building has been advised toprepare for LSTL refugees.


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## jollyjacktar (21 Apr 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> My understanding is that the roof was torn open to help vent the flames.  Either way this is going to take months to fix.  My building has been advised toprepare for LSTL refugees.



If you look at the opening, there's no sign or indication of fire on the edges and the size of the hole is substantial.  The hole appeared suddenly about half an hour after I went over to Montfort this morning (around 0930 according to a guy on the Air Force floors who watched it happen that I spoke with, he didn't mention flames shooting out),  also there was no sign of flames along the broken open windows across the front at that time (0900).  

This, is going to take many months to repair.  I think we'll be seeing some of the neighbours come across to stay here too.  I'm asking if I can sublet some of my cubicle for some extra whiskey money.   ;D


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## Oldgateboatdriver (21 Apr 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> My understanding is that the roof was torn open to help vent the flames.  Either way this is going to take months to fix.  My building has been advised toprepare for LSTL refugees.



Yep! That's the new government of Canada for you: We'll take refugees from anywhere without checking their background  [.


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## Remius (21 Apr 2016)

We could just send them all to those nice new cadet barracks.   >


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## Occam (21 Apr 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> This, is going to take many months to repair.  I think we'll be seeing some of the neighbours come across to stay here too.  I'm asking if I can sublet some of my cubicle for some extra whiskey money.   ;D



I suggested to our boss that we 455 DLC dwellers can work from here for one week, and then the LStL residents can have our cubicles for a week.  It's the only fair way.   ;D


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## Colin Parkinson (21 Apr 2016)

I recommend modular tents and self-digging defensive works they can work from, consider it a form of multi-tasking, team building and career growth all in one.


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## Occam (21 Apr 2016)

Sure, people are concerned about where the workers in that building are going to hang their hats if the building is out of commission for any period of time, but the really critical question that needs to be asked is:  

When will the Tim Horton's Express be back in operation?

/dark roast addict


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## Ostrozac (21 Apr 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I recommend modular tents and self-digging defensive works they can work from, consider it a form of multi-tasking, team building and career growth all in one.



Honestly, modular tents aren't the greatest option come the fall, because we end up spending a fortune heating them, but building a large NCR FOB out of ATCO trailers is probably a more realistic option than relying on our procurement and contracting system. After all, many people spent many years trying to turn KAF into NDHQ -- why not return the favor?

I can think of two units in the NCR that are already living out of ATCO trailers. This might be the latest trend in military architecture.


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## Colin Parkinson (21 Apr 2016)

Heat? hell they can burn draft briefing notes and forms if they want heat.  8)


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## Ostrozac (21 Apr 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Heat? hell they can burn draft briefing notes and forms if they want heat.  8)



Burning paper is considering ecologically unsound by our environmentally friendly authorities at the Federal level. Paper is to be collected, shredded, contracted out, and turned into compost for our next generation of trees which will be then slaughtered to be used as paper to write pointless briefing notes and forms.

Plus Gatineau has a bylaw against burning things, anti-burning bylaws seem to be cropping up across the country.


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## cavalryman (21 Apr 2016)

What if the displaced are relocated to front-line units across the CAF?  Would anyone notice a reduction in HQ staff?  Would anyone care?
T:


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## Scoobs (22 Apr 2016)

cavalryman said:
			
		

> What if the displaced are relocated to front-line units across the CAF?  Would anyone notice a reduction in HQ staff?  Would anyone care?
> T:



You obviously do not know what the majority of the people that work at this building do.  They are not paper pushers that work in a headquarters.  Most work for ADM(Mat), i.e. the people that get you your new kit, vehicles, planes, ships, shelters, etc. and they are the people that ensure that the current stuff gets fixed.  How well do you think the front line units would work without that stuff?


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Apr 2016)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> You obviously do not know what the majority of the people that work at this building do.  They are not paper pushers that work in a headquarters.  Most work for ADM(Mat), i.e. the people that get you your new kit, vehicles, planes, ships, shelters, etc. and they are the people that ensure that the current stuff gets fixed.  How well do you think the front line units would work without that stuff?



 :dunno: Same guys that get us new boots, mukluks and CADPAT?


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## caocao (22 Apr 2016)

How about the Constitution Bldg?  Could it be used as swing space while repairs are done on LSL?


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## Old and Tired (22 Apr 2016)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> You obviously do not know what the majority of the people that work at this building do.  They are not paper pushers that work in a headquarters.  Most work for ADM(Mat), i.e. the people that get you your new kit, vehicles, planes, ships, shelters, etc. and they are the people that ensure that the current stuff gets fixed.  How well do you think the front line units would work without that stuff?



So what you're saying is that the CAF won't see all that much of a degradation in Operational effectiveness by have that facility, and people out of operation for a while  [ .



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> :dunno: Same guys that get us new boots, mukluks and CADPAT?



How about RECCE Vehicles that we can't do RECCE work with?  I see this as a win win.  Opportunity here to fix a Broken (Now burned out) systems.


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## cavalryman (22 Apr 2016)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> You obviously do not know what the majority of the people that work at this building do.  They are not paper pushers that work in a headquarters.  Most work for ADM(Mat), i.e. the people that get you your new kit, vehicles, planes, ships, shelters, etc. and they are the people that ensure that the current stuff gets fixed.  How well do you think the front line units would work without that stuff?


Actually....  ;D


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## The Bread Guy (22 Apr 2016)

recceguy said:
			
		

> :dunno: Same guys that get us new boots, mukluks and CADPAT?


I'm surprised it took as long as it did to see this response!  ;D


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## George Wallace (22 Apr 2016)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Plus Gatineau has a bylaw against burning things, anti-burning bylaws seem to be cropping up across the country.



Looks like DND is now facing a Fine for burning things.    >


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## Journeyman (22 Apr 2016)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> You obviously do not know what the majority of the people that work at this building do.  They are not paper pushers that work in a headquarters.  Most work for ADM(Mat), i.e. the people that get you your new kit, vehicles, planes, ships, shelters, etc. and they are the people that ensure that the current stuff gets fixed.  How well do you think the front line units would work without that stuff?


   :rofl:     :facepalm:      :not-again:     "obviously"


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## Scoobs (22 Apr 2016)

Damn, there are so many people posting here that obviously have the solutions to all the problems in Ottawa.  It now appears to me that everyone in Ottawa must work at the Headquarters and everybody must be lazy the minute they are posted there.  Nope, throw away all the years of experience that they have at front line units because a prerequisite for going to Ottawa is to get your brain removed.  I mean, we all sit around here doing diddly shit and coming up with the stupidest kit for the front line units because it's fun and we love to see our friends who are still at the front line units experience the same stupid shit that we had to go through!  See I'm in the Air Force (we're all lazy anyways), but have spent the vast majority of my career on Army bases (what was I thinking?), and the stupidest idea that we came up with was to bring the Chinook back in (I mean really, who wants a helo designed specifically for supporting the Army, geesh?).  My friends over at the Globemaster project must have thought to themselves, let's get this aircraft because it can fly really fast and do nothing at all!  The J-model Herc guys must have thought the same thing.  The guys in Fixed Wing SAR love when the politicians interfere and the never ending, are we funded or not?  The JUSTAS guys (UAV) love that they don't know if it will be funded or supported.  Oh yay, happy joy joy!

My point for all the sarcasm above is that unless you have experience in Ottawa and have worked in the "fun" environment one sometimes encounters here, you really have no idea of what goes on and how Ottawa works/doesn't work.  There are lazy people in Ottawa and there are some stupid decisions made here (the never ending boot saga, etc.), just like there are lazy people and stupid decisions made at front line units.  However, there are a lot of good people working in ADM(Mat), bringing in good stuff (like I mention above since my experience is with aircraft procurement) for our front line units to use.


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## Colin Parkinson (22 Apr 2016)

I get to deal with Ottawa ALL,EFFING,TIME I want to burn it all down, starting with Treasury Board. I know what Ottawa says about the Regional people so it's all good. You don't expect for us to let a good fire go to waste do you?  [

I liked the air force, in particular your box lunches.  [lol:


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## Remius (22 Apr 2016)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> Damn, there are so many people posting here that obviously have the solutions to all the problems in Ottawa.  It now appears to me that everyone in Ottawa must work at the Headquarters and everybody must be lazy the minute they are posted there.  Nope, throw away all the years of experience that they have at front line units because a prerequisite for going to Ottawa is to get your brain removed.  I mean, we all sit around here doing diddly crap and coming up with the stupidest kit for the front line units because it's fun and we love to see our friends who are still at the front line units experience the same stupid crap that we had to go through!  See I'm in the Air Force (we're all lazy anyways), but have spent the vast majority of my career on Army bases (what was I thinking?), and the stupidest idea that we came up with was to bring the Chinook back in (I mean really, who wants a helo designed specifically for supporting the Army, geesh?).  My friends over at the Globemaster project must have thought to themselves, let's get this aircraft because it can fly really fast and do nothing at all!  The J-model Herc guys must have thought the same thing.  The guys in Fixed Wing SAR love when the politicians interfere and the never ending, are we funded or not?  The JUSTAS guys (UAV) love that they don't know if it will be funded or supported.  Oh yay, happy joy joy!
> 
> My point for all the sarcasm above is that unless you have experience in Ottawa and have worked in the "fun" environment one sometimes encounters here, you really have no idea of what goes on and how Ottawa works/doesn't work.  There are lazy people in Ottawa and there are some stupid decisions made here (the never ending boot saga, etc.), just like there are lazy people and stupid decisions made at front line units.  However, there are a lot of good people working in ADM(Mat), bringing in good stuff (like I mention above since my experience is with aircraft procurement) for our front line units to use.



I won't disagree.  Working at ADM(Mat) in particular has opened up my eyes.  Undermanned, understaffed and still expected to deliver.  My team went from 12 to 4 under DRAP and I know we aren't the only ones.  So many people double hatted and triple hatted.  So yeah, sometimes things get put on the wayside for other more important thingsThe thing is thst Treasury board is the bigger impediment among other central agencies.  It isn't necessarily because people are lazy.  Seems like a convenient way to explain things off but the truth is always more complicated.


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## Old and Tired (22 Apr 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> I won't disagree.  Working at ADM(Mat) in particular has opened up my eyes.  Undermanned, understaffed and still expected to deliver.  My team went from 12 to 4 under DRAP and I know we aren't the only ones.  So many people double hatted and triple hatted.  So yeah, sometimes things get put on the wayside for other more important thingsThe thing is thst Treasury board is the bigger impediment among other central agencies.  It isn't necessarily because people are lazy.  Seems like a convenient way to explain things off but the truth is always more complicated.



I don not for a minute think any of the UNIFORMED people working up there in ADM (MAT) are lazy.  I know to many that are have been, are, or are soon to be working there.  From the worms eye view of the world, there are entirely too many people there that DO NOT have the OPERATIONAL interests of the Soldiers, Sailors and Airman (non-gendered usage) at heart.  Again, I know of (and unfortunately am related) too many people that work there who have nothing but their own, very narrow self-interest and advancement in mind.  For them being seen to bend the DND to TBS will is more important than growing a back-bone and for once telling someone, anyone "NO, IT CAN NOT BE DONE. PERIOD" Because the system is irrepairable broken.

When we take the p*** out of "NDHQ" as a whole, its the system and "PROCESSES" that we are angry at not the _*Good Folks *_ that try and make it work.


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> I won't disagree.  Working at ADM(Mat) in particular has opened up my eyes.  Undermanned, understaffed and still expected to deliver.  My team went from 12 to 4 under DRAP and I know we aren't the only ones.  So many people double hatted and triple hatted.  So yeah, sometimes things get put on the wayside for other more important thingsThe thing is thst Treasury board is the bigger impediment among other central agencies.  It isn't necessarily because people are lazy.  Seems like a convenient way to explain things off but the truth is always more complicated.



Your yellow bit is bang on, but let us not excuse our own understaffing in many important areas caused exactly because of our own propensity to allow the little empires to keep being established.  FORCE testing / PSP just a sample.

New Command this, new Command for that, new Gp HQ for this, new one for that ... they eat up FTEs and PYs like no one's business taking up resources where much actual work (vice work of the "powerpoint brief" type) gets done and we do that to ourselves:  Treasury Board be damned.


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## Occam (22 Apr 2016)

I'm coming up on five years out of uniform now, and I still try to keep the sailors I support at the forefront of my mind in everything I do as a DND civvie now.  However, I do see some individuals who have lost sight of that.  One person in particular, who I have occasional dealings with, embodies it.  I grimace at the mere thought of having to bring him into an email chain, because all I hear about is five paragraphs of how busy he is, how he's a department of one, and the like.  If he'd summarize to just one paragraph, he might lighten his workload a little.

Where I work, at least, the overwhelming majority of civilians go above and beyond to make sure sailors get the equipment they need, when they need it - despite vacant positions and a long hiring freeze affecting our ability to deliver.


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## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2016)

Old and Tired said:
			
		

> I don not for a minute think any of the UNIFORMED people working up there in ADM (MAT) are lazy.  I know to many that are have been, are, or are soon to be working there.  From the worms eye view of the world, there are entirely too many people there that DO NOT have the OPERATIONAL interests of the Soldiers, Sailors and Airman (non-gendered usage) at heart.  Again, I know of (and unfortunately am related) too many people that work there who have nothing but their own, very narrow self-interest and advancement in mind.  For them being seen to bend the DND to TBS will is more important than growing a back-bone and for once telling someone, anyone "NO, IT CAN NOT BE DONE. PERIOD" Because the system is irrepairable broken.
> 
> When we take the p*** out of "NDHQ" as a whole, its the system and "PROCESSES" that we are angry at not the _*Good Folks *_ that try and make it work.


I will speak for my section of the machine, we know who we're there to support first and foremost, the fleet.  Full stop.  The bastards who in my time there have been the cause of much red tape and throwing big fucking wrenches into the gearboxes is PWGSC or whatever the fuck they are calling themselves this week.  The amount of time from flash to bang because of their part in the process is unbelievable.  They are, in my opinion, a major contributing factor as to why so much is fucked up about Ottawa and timely, proper delivery of service to our customers.  I know what I want to see go to the fleet, it doesn't mean I'll be successful in getting that item once they get involved.


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## Old and Tired (22 Apr 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I will speak for my section of the machine, we know who we're there to support first and foremost, the fleet.  Full stop.  The bastards who in my time there have been the cause of much red tape and throwing big ******* wrenches into the gearboxes is PWGSC or whatever the frig they are calling themselves this week.  The amount of time from flash to bang because of their part in the process is unbelievable.  They are, in my opinion, a major contributing factor as to why so much is ****ed up about Ottawa and timely, proper delivery of service to our customers.  I know what I want to see go to the fleet, it doesn't mean I'll be successful in getting that item once they get involved.



And this is what I mean. Good Folks working extremely hard for the pointy end guys.  The PROCESS, however is screwed.  There are people within the DND who have no loyalty TO the DND because of where they started out in Government. (PM Sent to explain this last bit)


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## CombatDoc (22 Apr 2016)

Remius said:
			
		

> The thing is thst Treasury board "PWGSC and procurement" is the bigger impediment among other central agencies.


FTFY  [


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2016)

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> FTFY  [



TBS, Treasury Board Act ... PWGSC:  aren't they all the same thing!!??   >


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## dapaterson (22 Apr 2016)

TBS are those pesky folks who expect DND to justify the why of the requests that are being sent up. And often there is no valid justification, only ego and ill-informed opinion.  As a taxpayer, I want someone asking the hard questions.


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## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> TBS are those pesky folks who expect DND to justify the why of the requests that are being sent up. And often there is no valid justification, only ego and ill-informed opinion.  As a taxpayer, I want someone asking the hard questions.



Un huh.  Please, go on....


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## dapaterson (22 Apr 2016)

How many TB subs have you written or been a part of?  How many TBS analysts have you worked with?


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## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2016)

I've seen enough, and been a part of enough procurements to have my opinion of PWGSC validated to form the opinion I have of them in general.  I have dealt with a few folks there that were good to deal with.  But only a few.


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## dapaterson (22 Apr 2016)

TBS and PSPC are two entirely different beasts, with different roles and responsibilities.


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## Scoobs (22 Apr 2016)

I don't have any experience with the Treasury Board, but I do with Public Works.  I agree that in general, they are the cog in the machine.  They slow the process down unnecessarily sometimes.  I understand that they have a role to play in order to keep us "honest", but sometimes it seems like they are doing it just to annoy the sh*t out of you.


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## Colin Parkinson (22 Apr 2016)

TBS overabundance of policies are the bane of our existence, they should be required to cut 5-10% of their polices for 5 years and then they might not be such a burden on the rest of the public service


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## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> TBS and PSPC are two entirely different beasts, with different roles and responsibilities.



Same bullshit just the same.


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> TBS overabundance of policies are the bane of our existence, they should be required to cut 5-10% of their polices each year for 5 years and then they might not be such a burden on the rest of the public service



Fixed that for you.   ;D


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