# Cadets that take things too far?



## GGHG_Cadet (17 Feb 2005)

I didn't really know what to title this but its not the title that matters. Do any of you SNCOs out their find that you have cadets that are trying to be hardcore to the point of stupidity? Today we were in a local forest doing our winter bush night. We were playing capture the flag and we had the prisoners sitting/lying on the ground we said if your cold get up or if you need a fire blanket say something, looking after them like we were supposed to. When we got everyone up I noticed that a couple who didn't say anything the whole night were shivering like mad. They only had their combats without jackets, which they thought they did not need. I checked for things like frost bite or hypothermia. We treated them as if they had hypothermia. After the night was over I asked them why they didn't say anything and their response was " We were being hardcore and sucking it up like soldiers." When they said that I almost flipped. Does anyone else have cadets like these ones? IF they do what do you say to them?


----------



## alan_li_13 (18 Feb 2005)

Definately, we have a few JNCO's that go around calling drill and cadence in a "special" voice just so they can sound like the FMJ guy or something. There's also always seniors that think they're cool when they swear alot. Not only is that a very bad example, it makes them sound like some uncultured, uneducated, Neanderthal. Those guys also seem to pick on the young cadets, particularly the ones with a few shortcomings. Its ok to motivate them a little, but what they do is just perfect examples of why CHAP was implimented.


----------



## Scott (18 Feb 2005)

GGHG, sounds like you implemented the proper response to such a thing, caring for those in your charge is a very important responsibility. Try making clear to them that there is no such thing as "hardcore" when it comes to caring for yourself. The ones who try to tough it out and end up as casualties are a burden to the unit as now you must try to care for them and sacrifice all else. During my time in the Reserves we were taught to care for our bodies and to pack for the weather. A soldier relies on their body to accomplish a task, can't do that when you're sun-pooched or frostbitten, right?

rifle team captain, hopefully CHAP will rid this sort of attitude from the CCM, there is no need for it. But think of this; maybe the persons in question are just getting into it a bit much and need to be reigned in just a bit by your Officers. Hopefully they'll grow out of it, if they don't they may come to realize, should they progress into the Pres or the Regs, that sort of behavior is not tolerated or condoned.

Good posts.


----------



## HollywoodHitman (18 Feb 2005)

"You don't have to be miserable or uncomfortable to be hard"

                      -CWO RG Gilmour


----------



## cursedhighlander (18 Feb 2005)

When I was commanding a platoon for the first time I was doing a normal voice saying things like "squad attention!" in a normal voice. However my sergeant was yelling to me in a nice way to "use my drill voice" because when I call timings I yell really loud. My former CSM did that and when they asked me 3 times I caved in. I yelled kinda loud but the platoon seemed to like that. So I don't think that yelling really loud is a big problem however I have a few hardcore people in my corps that do exactly what your cadets did however they don't shiver. But 1 quit the other is arrested and now I think people seriously need to get a grip. This is Canada!!!Those movies you see like FMJ and "Platoon" are sterotypical U.S.A movies. During those times mostly criminals and people off the street were drafted into the army. In Canada we can't have a criminal record if you want to be in the army. I think you made a good idea of posting this. After all look at my quote!


----------



## Observer23 (18 Feb 2005)

In both Regular and Reserve forces, no soldier worth being a soldier is going to sit out in the woods to freeze without proper kit.  Many go on exercise with the soul focus on being able to make yourself comfortable with the equipment we have (familiarization training).

Being â Å“Hardâ ? deals with a few things:

Strength of character - If a question is asked of you, you must be able to answer the question without â Å“bending the truthâ ? or exaggeration.  This leads to in integrity and trust.  If you don't have this, get out of my trench.

Professional development â â€œ Through course and your own initiative you should study to better your knowledge and skills.  A lot of the competent soldiers I've dealt with practice and study much of their skills on their own (orienteering, camping, swimming, etc).

Fitness â â€œ Any monkey can sit in a snow bank and freeze.  That is not bragging rights.  Being â Å“Hardâ ? in a physical sense deals with bettering yourself through fitness.  How far can swim for?  Can you climb that obstacle?  How far can you carry a rucksack?  I've never asked any of my subordinates how long they can endure an ice-cream headache.

If you know you shouldn't do something, never let your people get away with doing it as well.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (18 Feb 2005)

> During those times mostly criminals and people off the street were drafted into the army.



I am sure all the US servicemen who served their country honourably during that time period really appreciate being called a _crimminal_ and _people of the street_. Do some research on the Draft and how it was implemtnted before making such broad statements!


----------



## condor888000 (18 Feb 2005)

My units lucky, the worst we've ever had is one of the cadets fainting on parade, fortunatly he missed the pontoonof the float plane directly in front of him...


----------



## Scott (18 Feb 2005)

cursedhighlander said:
			
		

> This is Canada!!!Those movies you see like FMJ and "Platoon" are sterotypical U.S.A movies. During those times mostly criminals and people off the street were drafted into the army. In Canada we can't have a criminal record if you want to be in the army. I think you made a good idea of posting this. After all look at my quote!



You are basing your statements on what experience? How do you know that those movies are stereotypical "American" ones? And how do you know that a person with a criminal record can not gain entry into the CF? 

I'll set you straight. A very good friend of mine got caught for drinking and driving and was accepted into the CF three years after his conviction date, he did not have a pardon because he had not let five years elapse from the time of his conviction. He had to jump through a few more hoops and was subject to a bit more scrutiny, so he says, but he did get in and has since been pardoned and is enjoying his career. Try some research before you post.

Here's something that you are supposed to read before pposting in the Cadet Forums: http://army.ca/forums/threads/26989.0.html


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (18 Feb 2005)

Not off to a good start there cursed you may want to read the FAQ and go through the forum guidelines.


----------



## purple peguin (18 Feb 2005)

I no i would look out for younger cadets in cold weather/ even warm weather. we dont need any wannabe rambo's running around without any shirts/ jackets off. And i know with my core if you dont have a jacket on your sent home! Last year on one of our excersises i no i was very cold and our C.O came around to almost every cadet and made sure they were taken care of.


----------



## GGHG_Cadet (19 Feb 2005)

Does anybody have any ideas to get these cadets to stop thinking the way the do? So hopefully next time i won't have to deal with any near hypothemic cadets.


----------



## kincanucks (19 Feb 2005)

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> Does anybody have any ideas to get these cadets to stop thinking the way the do? So hopefully next time i won't have to deal with any near hypothemic cadets.



Probably start by putting more adults in charge instead of letting kids look after kids.


----------



## cursedhighlander (19 Feb 2005)

OK let me restate my forum and im sorry if I offenced anyone I didn't mean to   I am not saying that American soldiers were bums or criminals off the street. However I saw on the news that people who were drafted into the army were people from small towns you never heard of and I'm not saying Canadians are people who are nice and Americans are bad. Once again im sorry for my incorrect choice of words and I hope you take it as a misunderstanding. As for the criminal record I have heard it from many people about it. My RSM told us about that member who was arrested for spraying hairspray in a cadet's eyes. He cannot join the reserves now. But he is applying for Commissionaire (is that spelled right? Please correct me). When I talked about FMJ I don't think that they really did yell at their charges or swore at them during training. I meant that those MOVIES show things that didn't really happen. Once again I am very sorry for the offense I may have caused and I didn't mean to hurt anyone.


----------



## sgt_mandal (19 Feb 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Probably start by putting more adults in charge instead of letting kids look after kids.



I'm sorry sir, but what do you mean by this? Are you saying that being a cadet means that you are automatically a "kid"? As cadets we are taught to be mature and professional at all times. 



			
				GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> Does anybody have any ideas to get these cadets to stop thinking the way the do? So hopefully next time i won't have to deal with any near hypothemic cadets.



What I've always done whenever we are out in the bush or out where its cold, is if I see a cadet with their jacket unzipped, I tell them to zip it up, If they are not wearing their hats and gloves, I tell them to put those on aswel. 

You must always watch your cadets. If you see something you don't like fix it right away. You had said that you "noticed a couple who didn't say anything the whole night". This would have been a clue to check in with them and see how they were doing. I know the rest of that sentence went on to say they "were shivering like mad" but, I just extracted the first part to show you that you did notice them before they started shivering, right? As you had also stated, they were wearing only their combats, with no jackets. At this point I would have stopped them from playing and told them to get their jackets if they wished to continue. 

Something like this happened a while ago on one of our bush weekends. A cadet was cold because the jacket he was wearing, although it looked quite warm, it wasn't. he also didn't have gloves or a hat. That night, during dinner, me and another Sgt noticed him shivering in teh back of them mod tent. We immediately went to notify they officers who issued him a parka (we had about 20 of them to issue out as needed), hat, and gloves. needless to say, he warmed right up and started participating once again.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (19 Feb 2005)

Apology accepted cursed...btw there is a spell check function on the bottom of your posting window so there is no need to ask us if words are spelled correctly. Word of advice....don't go on what others tell you, listen to what they say and do your own research. What they say and what you might find out on your own might be really far apart.


----------



## GGHG_Cadet (19 Feb 2005)

> You must always watch your cadets. If you see something you don't like fix it right away. You had said that you "noticed a couple who didn't say anything the whole night". This would have been a clue to check in with them and see how they were doing. I know the rest of that sentence went on to say they "were shivering like mad" but, I just extracted the first part to show you that you did notice them before they started shivering, right? As you had also stated, they were wearing only their combats, with no jackets. At this point I would have stopped them from playing and told them to get their jackets if they wished to continue.



I did check to see if they were alright and they kept saying they were so I thought they were. I did not see any cadets before they hiked to the forest as I was already there setting up. If I had I would have issued them something from stores.

I guess everyone learned a valuable lesson that night, for me it's always inspect cadets before they go into the bush and for those cadets who were cold hats,gloves and jackets are a must on bush nights.


----------



## sgt_mandal (19 Feb 2005)

And another thing to remember, whenever you are in the bush, no matter where you are, it WILL always get colder. You may know that, but maybe a lot of your subordinates might not. That might be a good message to pass along to them for ur next ex.


----------



## condor888000 (19 Feb 2005)

Also, a good idea is to make sure that everyone is dressed for the worst. Pass that on to other seniors as well so that even if you aren't there it will get done.


----------



## kincanucks (19 Feb 2005)

_I'm sorry sir, but what do you mean by this? Are you saying that being a cadet means that you are automatically a "kid"? As cadets we are taught to be mature and professional at all times. _ 

Yes that is exactly what I am saying.  You can't be taught to be mature.  Professional? And that happens all the time doesn't it?
Where are the CICs and CLs while kids are running around the woods at night?


----------



## Scott (19 Feb 2005)

I will say here that I have personally witnessed some CIC and CI's that have less maturity than some of the Cadets they are supposed to be "leading" Agree, disagree, I have seen it for myself.

Mandal, I don't think that kincanucks meant any harm by his statements, he is right, Cadets are kids when you look at it. Maybe "young adults" would be better. It's just wording.

Kincanucks, No one can be taught to be mature. Cadets, Reg Force, Reserve, Civvies - everyone has the capability of acting like a jerk.


----------



## condor888000 (19 Feb 2005)

kincanucks said:
			
		

> _I'm sorry sir, but what do you mean by this? Are you saying that being a cadet means that you are automatically a "kid"? As cadets we are taught to be mature and professional at all times. _
> 
> Yes that is exactly what I am saying.   You can't be taught to be mature.   Professional? And that happens all the time doesn't it?
> Where are the CICs and CLs while kids are running around the woods at night?



It may not be possible to be taught to be mature, however being in charge of a group of younger cadets tends to force you to mature fairly quickly. We are for the most part, very mature, esespecially compared to many(not all) other teens. We are also taught to be professional. How to become better leaders. How to make sure cadets don't kill themselves with there own stupidity. One of the best ways to do this is to take care of your subordinates. That didn't happen to the extent it should have here but it did in the end. In my mind that shows that the cadets in question were professional, as well as mature enough to notice what was happening to those in their charge and to take apappropriate action.

Where the CIC's were I'm not sure, and what would CL's reffer to? ???


----------



## Love793 (20 Feb 2005)

My suggestion, Ensure your "Troops" are properly kitted out.  If they say something like, "I'll be ok, I'm hard...", cut them off.  Make them think about what could happen.  From that point on, constantly check on them.  Recheck on them, and check again.  We have a saying "Never trust F*ckee, as F*ckee will alway F*ck you" (Not intended to offend any person reading this, and if it did I truly appoligise).  What it means is, if you trust a unsupervised person,at the lowest level, to do something or think on their own, they won't.  And it will come back to bite you in the posteriour. Mind you not every one in the world is like this, but a lot of people do not know that there is fine line between hard-core and stupidity (Cadet, Reserve and Reg force a like).


----------



## Observer23 (21 Feb 2005)

What can you do to encourage more sensible â Å“hardcoreâ ? behaviour?  You can speak with a member and try to use the dark and forgotten art of logic and reason.  I find though it is easier and longer lasting buy setting the example and providing examples.  All soldiers before going on an operation go through some form of inspection.  This may entail a simple checklist to a kit layout.  You yourself as the example must have everything and achieve the standard.  As for providing examples, tell then that the fit and motivated soldiers strive to go on to greater challenges (ie pathfinder or ranger course).  And these dedicated soldiers passed their course.  Why?  Because they wore their hats and mitts!


----------



## Jonny Boy (21 Feb 2005)

rifle_team_captain_13 said:
			
		

> Definately, we have a few JNCO's that go around calling drill and cadence in a "special" voice just so they can sound like the FMJ guy or something. There's also always seniors that think they're cool when they swear alot. Not only is that a very bad example, it makes them sound like some uncultured, uneducated, Neanderthal. Those guys also seem to pick on the young cadets, particularly the ones with a few shortcomings. Its ok to motivate them a little, but what they do is just perfect examples of why CHAP was implimented.



hey li  i think i know who you are talking about. could it be the same person that goes around wearing all the cadpat gear and never listens to the rules. i know the individual has a hard time acting like a proper role modle. i havnt seem to many problems with the JNCO's in the corp. but than i am always at charie sqd and not bravo sqd. this weekend we just had was pretty good i dont think a single cadet went with out wanting the proper warm gear. but than what do you expect when  you are in  - 35 degree weather.


----------



## Kat Stevens (21 Feb 2005)

"Hardcore"  means soldiering on and doing the best with what you have.  It does NOT mean  running around in the bush after intentionally leaving your gear behind.  The winters in Canada can and will kill you if you're not careful...

CHIMO,  Kat


----------



## Scott (21 Feb 2005)

We had a guy working for us that refused to wear his fireproof balaclava, thought that it made him look less manly or something. So, we're fighting fire and we get a bit that rolls back over on us, guess who gets burned and has to go on compensation? Yep, idiot boy who couldn't be arsed enough to understand the need for all off the PPE. You'd think a guy would learn after getting zapped like that but no...I found this idiot a week or so later bragging about how he was so tough because he had been burned...some people never learn.

Personally, I do not care how "girly" I look wearing all of my protective clothing. I have been burned and, let me tell you, it sucks.


----------



## Love793 (21 Feb 2005)

scott1nsh said:
			
		

> We had a guy working for us that refused to wear his fireproof balaclava, thought that it made him look less manly or something. So, we're fighting fire and we get a bit that rolls back over on us, guess who gets burned and has to go on compensation? Yep, idiot boy who couldn't be arsed enough to understand the need for all off the PPE. You'd think a guy would learn after getting zapped like that but no...I found this idiot a week or so later bragging about how he was so tough because he had been burned...some people never learn.
> 
> Personally, I do not care how "girly" I look wearing all of my protective clothing. I have been burned and, let me tell you, it sucks.



Aw, the fine line between hard core and stupidity has again been stumbled over.


----------



## Stirling N6123 (21 Feb 2005)

> I'm sorry sir, but what do you mean by this? Are you saying that being a cadet means that you are automatically a "kid"? As cadets we are taught to be mature and professional at all times.



As I have been a CI for some time, I am about to become a CIC Officer. And from what I know about being a minor, under the age of 18, and being on Cadet exercises, it is the responsibility of every officer to ensure that the cadets, that he is responsible for, are safe, and stay safe while on training exercises. If you are under the age of 18, yes, even if you are WO1 so and so, I am still responsible for your welfare and safety. If I was not, your mother or father or legal guardian would not allow you to be under our care. Cadets are given as much flexability to do as they see fit under the guidelines set out by the CF, and by the Cadet League of Canada. You are taught discipline, deportment, and leadership, you will become mature through your own life experience, we cannot teach that too you. But, you are in every sense of the word, a kid....or as I put it, a cadet. Your officers are ultimately responsible for your wellbeing while on exercises. 

As for cadets trying to be hard, Rambo types that wanna rough it? They are going to do it whether we like it or not. The secret is, as the cadet involved in the Hypothermia incident, detect the problem, get a solution, fix the problem,then sit the cadet down and discuss the implications and the seriousness of what they did wrong. Make them write out the pros and cons, I will bet that it will be something they remember for a long time, and next time, they maybe helping someone else out that is in a similar situation.

The first and third item in the Cadet Motto?      To Learn and To Advance. I tried to have Make mistakes first, but i was out voted. ;D


----------



## Zedic_1913 (22 Feb 2005)

Stirling N6123 said:
			
		

> The first and third item in the Cadet Motto?         To Learn and To Advance. I tried to have Make mistakes first, but i was out voted. ;D


That is part of the motto for Air Cadets.  The motto of Army Cadets is Acer Acerpori (As the maple, so the sapling), and the motto of Sea Cadets is "Ready Aye Ready."


----------



## Stirling N6123 (22 Feb 2005)

Yes thank-you. I was aware of that.


----------



## Burrows (22 Feb 2005)

Stirling N6123 said:
			
		

> The first and third item in the Cadet Motto? To Learn and To Advance. I tried to have Make mistakes first, but i was out voted. ;D





			
				Zedic_1913 said:
			
		

> That is part of the motto for Air Cadets. The motto of Army Cadets is Acer Acerpori (As the maple, so the sapling), and the motto of Sea Cadets is "Ready Aye Ready."





			
				Stirling N6123 said:
			
		

> Yes thank-you. I was aware of that.



Clearly not...if you were aware of it you wouldnt have said it.  Please read the forum rules of conduct.  Just because you are an officer doesnt mean that you are exempt from anything.  Mr. Zedic was kind enough to correct you and you tell him you were aware of it?  Everyone makes mistakes including officers.  Just take your lumps and soldier on.  There is no need to save face here, everyone is respected until they prove to be total retards, and saying "I was aware of that" makes the thank you come off awfully sarcastic to me.

Please read the rules of the cadet forum and any questions please send a PM to myself or scott1nsh.

Thanks,
Burrows,
Cadet forum Moderator.


----------



## Scott (22 Feb 2005)

Stirling N6123 said:
			
		

> As for cadets trying to be hard, Rambo types that wanna rough it? They are going to do it whether we like it or not. The secret is, as the cadet involved in the Hypothermia incident, detect the problem, get a solution, fix the problem,then sit the cadet down and discuss the implications and the seriousness of what they did wrong. Make them write out the pros and cons, I will bet that it will be something they remember for a long time, and next time, they maybe helping someone else out that is in a similar situation.



I disagree. They may want to do it but if you are properly watching over them then they should not have the opportunity. Provide a kit list to them, if they arrive for a weekend out and haven't packed accordingly then send them home, seems simple to me. If they're giving the tough talk then make sure you take them aside and explain that sort of talk is not on, then explain to the group how that attitude can get a person killed, make it a learning experience, how "hardcore" is just stupid and not a way to act. 

Here's a thought, do you think that maybe some of the CI's and CIC take it a bit to far with their Rambo-ish attitudes and that the Cadets, who may look up to them, are just following their lead? Methinks that this scenario is entirely possible.

If you want a good example of how hardcore can mess you up, read my blurb on the previous page.


----------



## sgt_mandal (22 Feb 2005)

scott1nsh said:
			
		

> I disagree. They may want to do it but if you are properly watching over them then they should not have the opportunity. Provide a kit list to them, if they arrive for a weekend out and haven't packed accordingly then send them home, seems simple to me. If they're giving the tough talk then make sure you take them aside and explain that sort of talk is not on, then explain to the group how that attitude can get a person killed, make it a learning experience, how "hardcore" is just stupid and not a way to act.
> 
> Here's a thought, do you think that maybe some of the CI's and CIC take it a bit to far with their Rambo-ish attitudes and that the Cadets, who may look up to them, are just following their lead? Methinks that this scenario is entirely possible.
> 
> If you want a good example of how hardcore can mess you up, read my blurb on the previous page.



I very agree (can u say that ??? o well) I've seen some air CIC officers who think they are some kind of one man Spec Ops team  : what  a waste of kit.


----------



## Stirling N6123 (23 Feb 2005)

First off, I am not an officer. I am a CI. Second,  I was not being sarcastic, I was merely saying thank-you for the correction, and that I was aware of the three distinct motto's for the Air, Sea and Army cadets. Should I have edited my post? Maybe. Did I miss putting the "Air" in there, yes. But if you Corporal Burrows have interpreted that 7 word post as sarcasm, then you, as is every one else, entitled that opinion.

I will not speak for all CIC's or CI's on this forum, or the approx. 6000 CIC officers nation wide. It is my hope that most of them carry themselves in a manner that is reflective of the Cadet League, Reflective of the Canadian Forces standards and reflective of their own morals and character. If there are stories out there of CIC officers doing silly things, shame on them. Lead by example.

Having said that, I am not going to debate with any of you as to wheather cadetsshould  be given proper kit list, or if they are properly advised, or if they are properly trained, If "I" am properly watching them etc. etc. The bottom line that of you need to realize, is that when you are in the bush, your parents have given people like me, the legal responsibility to ensure your safety. If I do not ensure that you are kept safe, I am responsible, I may even go to jail if I fail to provide that level of safety.

The following is an excerpt from my units standing orders. And, I have also been told, as all CIC officers are members of the Canadian Forces, there are QR&O's that officers are bound by when it comes to dealing with minors in the cadet movement.

In short:

GENERAL 1.
Safety is everyone's responsibility and must be the primary consideration when planning and conducting all cadet training activities. Commanding Officers must ensure that the staff and cadets under their command duly follow all safety guidelines and regulations. Certain activities, such as sailing, cacanoingfamiliarization flying and abseiling, have their own set of safety guidelines which can be found in the respective CATOs or other safety publications. This PRCI will cover the safety guidelines as they pertain to general cadet training activities. 

GENERAL SAFETY 2.
Supervision. Cadet supervision levels are dependant upon the type of activity being conducted. The cadet corps/squadron CO must consider the type of activity and ensure that adequate supervision is provided. The following minimum supervision levels shall be provided:

a. for activities conducted during the day where safety risks are minimal and overnight accommodation is not required, the minimum adult supervisor ratio of one CIC officer/civilian instructor for every 20 cadets shall be maintained;

b. for overnight activities other than field training exercises, a minimum adult supervisor ratio of one CIC officer/civilian instructor for every 15 cadets shall be maintained and appropriate gender representation for cadets in attendance shall be provided (ie. if female cadets are in attendance, female CIC officer(s)/civilian instructor(s) will be present); 

c. during field training exercises, the minimum adult supervisor ratio of one CIC officer/civilian instructor for every 10 cadets shall be maintained and appropriate gender representation for cadets in attendance shall be provided; and d. when specialized activities (ie. range practices, abseiling, gliding, sailing) are being conducted, additional supervision will be provided as required and current qualified specialty instructors must be present throughout.

FIELD TRAINING EXERCISES 11. When planning any cadet training activity involving the outdoors the following areas shall be taken into consideration:

 a. Leaders/Instructors. Adequate supervision for the activity being conducted must be provided in accordance with current regulations. Leaders/instructors must be qualified and properly screened prior to having contact with cadets;

 b. Group Characteristics. The number, age, medical limitations (ie. allergies) physical fitness and experience levels of cadets must be considered as they apply to the activities in which cadets are expected to participate; 

c. Area Characteristics. Before entering an area to be used for cadet training, instructors must assess the type of terrain, remoteness, water conditions, in and out routes and any potential hazards such as poisonous plants, wildlife or dangerous terrain; 

d. Climatic Conditions. A weather forecast should be obtained prior to venturing into the outdoors such that the group is equipped with adequate gear and clothing to survive any unexpected shift in the weather and to move in inclement weather to a safe area; 

e. Clothing and Equipment. All cadets must be properly notified of what personal items of clothing and equipment they are to bring. Any equipment supplied to them should be in good condition and of adequate quantity. A check of personal equipment should be done to ensure cadets have brought all necessary items prior to departing on an exercise (see PRCI 121); 

f. Communication Plan. A communication plan is necessary to ensure reliable communication within the groups and with outside emergency agencies. The reliability of cellular service varies, therefore, should not be depended on as a sole means of communication; 

And I thank-you Corporal Burrows for directing me to the forum rules. I was aware of those as I have read them. Should I require any further clclarificationf them, I will send you a PM.


----------



## Scott (23 Feb 2005)

Stirling N6123 said:
			
		

> The bottom line that of you need to realize, is that when you are in the bush, your parents have given people like me, the legal responsibility to ensure your safety. If I do not ensure that you are kept safe, I am responsible, I may even go to jail if I fail to provide that level of safety.



And that is the bottom line. Good post.

And this is why we need to ensure that the people, like yourself, entrusted with children's safety, are properly trained to do such. I meant no harm in my words towards the many CI's and CIC who do their damndest to ensure that their charges are kept safe. I was merely stating that there are exceptions, just like my former coworker, in every walk of life. When it comes to caring for youth we must ensure that these "exceptions" are kept as far away as possible.

Good on you for the post, some would have ended up going down in flames, so to speak. Apologies if I misread your previous.

Welcome to Army.ca!


----------



## Stirling N6123 (23 Feb 2005)

Unfortunately, there will always be exceptions.

I have recently read with dismay that a Boy Scout leader has been arrested and charged in the Toronto Area for being in possesion, or at least trying to obtain material of a pornographic nature relating to young children. This individual has been working with youth for many years. And it boggles the mind as to how these people can infect these types of organizations with all the safeguards in place. 

I will speak for myself, I was once a cadet with 151 Squadron in Oshawa for 4 years, from 1986 to 1990, made it to Flight Sergeant. My Commanding Officer was Major Bert Weigel, and as a youth of 16years, I looked to that guy with admiration. He would lead by example and to this day, I remember going to Ganaraska forest for a 4 day camp out. On the last day, we did an obstacle coarse that ended with a rope jump across a pond. The rope would sway far away from a small dock, level with the water on the far end, so we needed an Officer there to catch the cadets as they swung way out on the rope and came back across the far side, past the dock. Who was there but Major Weigle, in the pouring rain, full combats, 4 days of cammo paint ground into his face, and a colt cigar, burning away, protected by his bush hat, catching the cadets as they swung across before jumping on the bus home. 

I still think he is involved with he squadron although not a commanding officer. But there are allot of fine, outstanding citizens that have very mundane jobs, family's and ordinary lives that want to be involved in providing youth in this country with a foundation of duty, honour and above all respect for others, that will help them for the rest of their lives.


----------



## Pte. Gagnon (24 Feb 2005)

Me and a couple buddy's from my corps try and go "hardcore" but were not stupid about it...we keep ourselves safe doing it. We're talking about have perfect cam...stuff like that.


----------



## Lost_Warrior (24 Feb 2005)

> people who were drafted into the army were people from small towns you never heard of



That sounds familiar....oh yeah, Platoon  ;D


----------



## cursedhighlander (24 Feb 2005)

Lol yea your right warrior but I also saw it on the news.


----------



## Jonny Boy (25 Feb 2005)

Pte. Gagnon said:
			
		

> Me and a couple buddy's from my corps try and go "hardcore" but were not stupid about it...we keep ourselves safe doing it. We're talking about have perfect cam...stuff like that.



in my opinion i don't think that any cadet is truly hardcore no matter what kind of cam you have or equipment.
i don't think you are truly hardcore untill you are on the front line fighting for you life your country and most importantly the person beside you.


----------



## cursedhighlander (25 Feb 2005)

Your right Hutch I agree with you totally. You can't be turly hardcore in cadets because there are people in real life so close to losing their life about everyday. I had a ww2 veteran come to our school and he said he wanted to be hardcore and cool like in the movies but then he said that once your out there you really know what "hardcore" is. So Hutch is absolutly right. You need to experience the horrors of war before you can say what you want about it or being hardcore.


----------



## Stirling N6123 (25 Feb 2005)

Pte. Gagnon, 

As one of the many adults on this forum, the frequent use of the word "hardcore" is a little disturbing. Do any of the cadets on this forum actually believe that the professional, career solider does things "hardcore"? How about the F-18 Pilot, or the Navy Clearance diver? Or the Firefighter? They do not do things "hardcore", they do them with skill, professionalism, SAFETY, and with discipline. You do not fly jets "hardcore", you do not fight fires, "hardcore", you do not clear sea mines, "hardcore".

Even under the most stressful situation, being a POW, male and female pilots, sailors and combat solders still maintain discipline and professionalism. They would not necessarily be doing things "hardcore".


----------



## sgt_mandal (25 Feb 2005)

Someone lock this...........................Please......................


----------



## Lexi (25 Feb 2005)

Pte. Gagnon said:
			
		

> Me and a couple buddy's from my corps try and go "hardcore" but were not stupid about it...we keep ourselves safe doing it. We're talking about have perfect cam...stuff like that.


I remember once our old WO, (God I miss him,) was telling us about how they used to have a group cadets who were considered "hardcore," and they would have a seperate camp site from the rest of the corps and would have their own flag... the jolly roger.
At first glance it sounds almost awesome, but when you think about it, I'd hate to be the cadet feeling belittled by this group of the so-called "elite." In the end this group was disbanded because it almost destroyed the unity of our corps.

62 RHLI is always careful when it comes to weather conditions and pushing the limits... some of this can be credited to our CO. Although everyone likes her and enjoys her cheerful attitude, I sometimes find she's got a rather large soft spot. Catered food, heated cabins and a 0730 wake up time are far from what I'd call the regular routine of a winter FTX. 

I'm sometimes shocked by the irresponsiblity of some of our (newer) NCO's. One Cpl. came on our winter FTX with no gloves, no toque, and wore jeans. She was always way too cold to participate in any games we played, so she sat at the picnic table freezing her arse off. Another MCpl arrived for tagging on a blizzarding Saturday without gloves, and when I questioned her she answered "I didn't want to wear them, but now I regret it." Luckily enough, I had 3 pairs on me. (Don't even ask why.  ;D)\

Please excuse Pte. Gagnon, he gets a bit excited when he hears the word "hardcore"...  ;D

Please don't make me do drill, Gagnon..


----------



## condor888000 (25 Feb 2005)

FSgt_mandal said:
			
		

> Someone lock this...........................Please......................


Second that, or please, steer clear of that damned "hardcore" debate...


----------



## Pte. Gagnon (25 Feb 2005)

Stirling,

I guess me and you have different views of harcore...i think of it as me being a cadet and trying to be like a reservist or a reg force soldier...


----------



## Lexi (25 Feb 2005)

Pte. Gagnon said:
			
		

> Stirling,
> 
> I guess me and you have different views of harcore...i think of it as me being a cadet and trying to be like a reservist or a reg force soldier...


Say it with me now... "wa-nna-be".  

Kidding.. kidding.. 
_*Lexi runs and hides*_


----------



## Docherty (25 Feb 2005)

We have all been through the phase, as long as they aren't hurting anyone else don't make a big deal about it.  It's just maturity any 13 year old kid in Combat gear has the same attitude, just let them go through the phase it won't last too long.


----------



## Pte. Gagnon (25 Feb 2005)

Lexi said:
			
		

> Say it with me now... "wa-nna-be".
> 
> Kidding.. kidding..
> _*Lexi runs and hides*_



So...do you have a problem with that??


----------



## condor888000 (25 Feb 2005)

Pte. Gagnon said:
			
		

> Stirling,
> 
> I guess me and you have different views of harcore...i think of it as me being a cadet and trying to be like a reservist or a reg force soldier...


*bashes head against wall*

Explain to me, what is "hardcore"? Give me a good, solid example, and why it's a good thing. I don't mean the standard "I'm hardcore cause I can stand for x hours in the snow with no coat" BS. A real, solid example. I doubt you can. Being "hardcore", doesn't mean a thing. The best cadets strive to go to their limits, and maybe a bit beyond, but they know when to stop. That is what you should strive to be like. Not the idiots who freeze or injure themselves trying to be "hardcore".


----------



## Lexi (25 Feb 2005)

condor888000 said:
			
		

> *bashes head against wall*
> 
> Explain to me, what is "hardcore"? Give me a good, solid example, and why it's a good thing. I don't mean the standard "I'm hardcore cause I can stand for x hours in the snow with no coat" BS. A real, solid example. I doubt you can. Being "hardcore", doesn't mean a thing. The best cadets strive to go to their limits, and maybe a bit beyond, but they know when to stop. That is what you should strive to be like. Not the idiots who freeze or injure themselves trying to be "hardcore".


Bang on.
Egads, you nearly stole the words from my mouth. 

(I don't know Gagnon by the way...   ;D)


----------



## Pte. Gagnon (25 Feb 2005)

I already explained what *MY* version of hardcore is... Maybe it's different from other peoples...


----------



## sixzeroalpha (25 Feb 2005)

What is "Hardcore" its being smart and planning ahead
causing bodily harm when its not required is not "hardcore" at all its just plain dumb
as for you comment about trying to be like a reservist or reg force soldier I have never seen a soldier do something like that
we try to plan ahead so we can adapt and survive not play tough guy to look cool
these kids best start thinkin instead of trying to look tough


----------



## sgt_mandal (25 Feb 2005)

FSgt_mandal said:
			
		

> Someone lock this...........................Please......................


My request is still being requested..............


----------



## condor888000 (25 Feb 2005)

Go build a shelter or something...go on, get...


----------



## Scott (26 Feb 2005)

Stirling hits the nail on the head. I can attest because I am a part of one of the professions given as an example, read page two of this thread to see the example I set out for all to see, it did happen. I think it just might be a case of youth being, well, youth. Excitable, wanting to impress, trying to seem "older" than they are, any one of a million examples. The thing is, if you're concentrating so much on being "hardcore", and whatever you think that embodies, then how much time does that leave for the rest of the things you must do? 

I used to think, when I was a a new guy, that sitting around learning about ropes and knots or theory of fire wasn't going to get me anywhere when it actually came to fighting the fire. I thought, as a greenhorn, that I already knew what was needed as far as education and experience to do the job, boy was I wrong. 

To be honest, there is no such thing as a hardcore firefighter. We are ordinary people who choose to put themselves into extraordinary situations. That quote is from page one of the manual, something I ignored at first because I thought it was just "putting wet stuff on the red stuff" All this being said I do not think that there is such a thing as a hardcore soldier, I would think that the soldier would far rather be looked upon as professional than some term that the John Wayne's and whatnot made famous, or infamous. I don't try to be bloody hardcore, I try to get the fire out with as little loss of life and property as possible, notice that life is number one and that includes my own!

Today I educate myself as much as possible because there are no such things as "born to be" in any world. You have to study and practice and be dedicated. You want to call that hardcore, go ahead, personally I don't give a monkey's bottom because it doesn't matter. I am paid to do this job and take all that comes with it, that's just real life. 

As per request, thread locked. Good posts from some, repetitive ones from others, however, this one has run its course.


----------



## Alex252 (26 Feb 2005)

Good post Stirling, Couldnt have said it better.....Scott it isnt locked yet?


----------



## Scott (26 Feb 2005)

Bah, I forgot about that.....age catching up tome me.


----------

