# Captured Canadian Grizzly IFV - former Yugoslavia?



## Michael Dorosh (8 Nov 2005)

Was looking at a set of marking schemes for Grizzly tanks in an eastern European model kit today; aside from UN and three-colour camouflage markings for Canadian Forces vehicles, there was a paint scheme for a "captured Grizzly' taken from Canadians in Yugoslavia.

Does this represent an actual event, or does it represent a Serbian toy-maker's fantasy?


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## Cloud Cover (8 Nov 2005)

No pic, but here is a link to the claim: http://ispec.specwarnet.net/serbia/jso.html

Cheers.


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## The_Falcon (8 Nov 2005)

And when exactly was the grizzly supposed to have been captured?


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Nov 2005)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> And when exactly was the grizzly supposed to have been captured?



And from which unit...

Thanks for the link Whiskey.  Hmm, maybe I should write to the model company; they apparently have seen the vehicle in question, or at least have come up with a paint scheme for it...


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## 3rd Horseman (8 Nov 2005)

I'm amazed at the audacity to have 3 paint types on a toy one being the Cdn Coy veh captured in 95. It really did happen, NATO tried to destroy them before they were used for the wrong thing I guess in the end they become a toy paint pattern. Most of the eqpt was found destroyed in the fall of 95 and during IFOR tour summer 96. It happened it was embarrassing.


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## Cloud Cover (8 Nov 2005)

I've seen the pic somewhere. They painted it blue-grey. It looked fairly beat up, but still a runner.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Nov 2005)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> I'm amazed at the audacity to have 3 paint types on a toy one being the Cdn Coy veh captured in 95. It really did happen, NATO tried to destroy them before they were used for the wrong thing I guess in the end they become a toy paint pattern. Most of the eqpt was found destroyed in the fall of 95 and during IFOR tour summer 96. It happened it was embarrassing.



It's not all that embarrassing on its own - I don't know the details of the case so can't comment specifically, but captured vehicles were common in the Second World War and I suppose in any other sizeable conflict since then in which armoured vehicles were used. Of course, it usually happens in full-intensity actions (ie battles) where demolition is impossible or when vehicles crews are taken by surprise, bail out into unfortunate circumstances, etc.  

Would be interested in hearing the full story on this one, though not if its going to embarrass anyone.


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## Cloud Cover (8 Nov 2005)

Now that I think about it a bit more, the picture might have been the Janes Special Forces of the World book at Chapters. I remember thinking that the boys at GMD in London must have been pissed that GM sold the unit to Serbia- I didn't realize it was only one, and that it was captured.


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## McG (8 Nov 2005)

From here


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## 3rd Horseman (8 Nov 2005)

As such it was embarrassing from a command situation but not from a soldiers.

   Scenario goes like this unit name withheld to protect the really good soldiers that were ordered to surrender by a weak officer,

    Bih forces massed two Corps in the valley above Sarajevo for an attack on the encircle city to break the siege of Sarajevo as it was referred to, this was imperative to ensure the BiH had the capital of the new republic fully in the control of BiH forces. The Serb forces conducted attacks all around the Sarajevo sector in an attempt to gain much needed eqpt and vital ground for the oncoming 2 Corp assult onto them. They attacked the French first and then the British capturing some 100 or so prisoners and several pieces of eqpt and weapons. The Canadians who held the flank of the Brits were attacked after the Brits and the French conducted counter attacks to regain there soldiers, eqpt and vital ground. The Canadians folded in about a day (thats the embarrassing part). AS the Serbs rolled up 6 ops and the entire flank of the Brits the Bih attacked knowing what the Serbs were doing. The Canadians were caught between an oncoming 2 Corp attack and a Serb desperate scramble for ground. In the end all Canadian ops in the Serb sector but one was captured, all soldiers became POWs and eqpt was turned into defensive positions to await the BiH. That night the BiH rolled through the Canadian positions on the BiH side but the Ops would not surrender which really pissed off the Bih since the other side of the river rolled up so easy to the Serbs they (Bih) thought it was a set plan to support the Serbs. Battle lasted some 5 weeks with many POWs, casualties, KIA and lost eqpt. In the end the Canadians lost to capture one entire Inf Coy complete with all pers, radios, MG, Obs gear and vehs oh yes and all our radio freqs.

    The serbs never gave back any of the eqpt and NATO soldiers tried to destroy the eqpt before it caused any more problems the UN stopped this activity.

AS a post script the BiH 2 Corp attack was halted in its tracks with about 5 to 10,000 casualties on all sides when the Canadian eqpt caught the Bih in the flank as they pressed for Sarajavo.


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## Acorn (8 Nov 2005)

I think that one is going to require some backup. Names withheld or not. How about some dates?


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## Baloo (9 Nov 2005)

I'm going to second the call for information.


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## Bartok5 (9 Nov 2005)

As much as it pains me to say it, "3rd Horseman" is 100% correct in this case.  Credit for accuracy where due.

You can have the call for "confirmation", but it won't change the facts.  That is a surrendered/captured (depending on your perspective) Canadian Army Grizzly AVGP repainted and slightly modified - note the grill-work tack-welded over the headlights.  Captured complete with all on-board kit and munitions.

It wasn't the only AVGP "lost" during that particular tour.  No unit names, no pack-drill.  You can do the research yourselves, based on the linked web-sites.  Just do the math based on documented unit deployment dates for UNPROFOR.

BTW - this is something that we don't tend to talk about.....

Mark C


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## KevinB (9 Nov 2005)

Mark C said:
			
		

> .
> 
> BTW - this is something that we don't tend to talk about.....



Well those dates where not exactly a stunning sucess period for UNPROFOR or CANBAT -- but heaven forbid it be discussed and disected, the public may realise that the "PeaceKeeping" in FYR was more of a dismal failure than we have let on, and further come to the realisation that the only missions that have "suceeded" have been lead by the Great Satan himself the US of A...


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## Bartok5 (9 Nov 2005)

Before this gets out of hand....

Lets all just suck back and acknowledge that the capture of this particular Canadian AFV occurred during the latter UNPROFOR days - when ALL military forces in the FRY had been effectively "de-toothed" by the UN and forced to resort to good-will in order to enact (NOT enforce) the UN mandate.   The unit that gave up the Grizzly in question to the Bosnian Serb forces had little choice in the matter.   The extant direction was to surrender equipment (and yes, weapons) if it came to a life-threatening stand-off, as lethal force was not authorized at the time for the protection of mission-essential equipment.

Without getting into a discussion which would violate OPSEC regarding then-extant ROE, suffice it to say that the soldiers in question had little choice in the matter at the time based on their very clear orders.   They simply did as they were told, as much as it undoubtedly burned their arses as the time.   No different than the Canadian elements that were ordered to withdraw from their well-defended observations posts along the Krijena border when the U.S.-sponsored Croatian "Op Storm" offensive was launched.   Those were utterly stupid and largely "toothless" days, which do not speak well for the UN's gumption on the international stage.   One could argue that it was merely a precursor of things to come.   Which is why those who persist in castigating the Dutch for the Srebenica massacre have their well-intentioned heads up their arses.   Did the vastly out-numbered and out-gunned Dutch contingent safe-guarding that UN-declared "Safe Haven" have a moral obligation to defend the Bosniacs hunkered down within the perimeter?   Arguably yes.   But the Dutch were horribly over-matched and had they elected to do "the honourable thing" (in direct violation of UN orders, I might add), they would have stood no better chance than the Spartans at the Gates of Thermoplaie.   

You (at the time) are a UN soldier.   You do what you are told by the international governing body at the time.   You don't have the luxury of second-guessing your orders, even if you happen to believe that what you are ordered to do will result in a disaster.   Oh, you could make a heroic stand based on what you believe to be the bigger picture and die a glorious death.   But what if in hindsight it turns out that you screwed the international pooch and your actions directly resulted in the needless deaths of untold thousands more?   Well, then you'd (belatedly) feel like a bit of an arsehole, wouldn't you?   Or not, because you are dead for no good reason and your family are left wailing and moaning back in Canada with you dead for nothing.   In fact, you died as the result of a manifest error of personal judgement that directly contributed to thousands more needless deaths.   All because your "heroic stand" derailed a volatile peace negotiation.   Way to go   hero....   Are we starting to grasp just how complicated things were back then when we Canadians (at large) stuck our soldiers in the middle of a "feel good" international cause with zero mandate for success?     

All of the above to say that it is piss-simple to sit back here with the luxury of hindsight and "arm-chair quarterback" some of the decisions made during the insane days of UNPROFOR.   There is no doubt that the UN was way out of its league and screwed the pooch to the detriment of all concerned parties - the locals and all international military contingents included.   That is precisely why NATO moved in and "enforced" the Dayton Accords in 1997 with IFOR and then SFOR.   Using the threat of overwhelming military force to impose compliance upon the three warring factions.   It was only then, after 5 years of UN dithering (with our troops and those of many other nations caught in the middle) that things got sorted out.

So, let's not sit here and try to pass judgement on what happened back in the early 1990s.   To do so without having served at the time and place would be indicative of utter arse-clownery.   Even to do so having served (no offence to Tess and others) would be mistaken.   Those on the ground at the time had a very limited and frustrating perspective.   No soldier likes the notion of being ordered to surrender their position, or their kit, even when faced with untenable odds.   No soldier likes the idea of having to leave an area knowing that bad things (eg. genocide) will ensue once they are gone.   No soldier likes to back down when faced with an unauthorized road-block.   But it happens, and no doubt the requirement to do all of the above still provides grist for the mental mill amonst those who endured it wearing various national flags.   Such is the life of a soldier under orders.

All of the above to say that the "captured/surrendered" Grizzly is the function of a very particular time and place.   Its loss is NOT indicative of a particular unit's failings or lack of will.   Rather, it is entirely representative of an untenable military situation created by a dithering world body manifested in the UN.   Full-stop.   

So, no names, no pack-drill.     

I wasn't there at the time.  However, my former unit was there in 1992 and were slated for another UNPROFOR deployment in 1995/96 during which I was fully in the loop.  Thankfully our deployment was re-jigged to the first NATO SFOR deployment in 97, where we actually had some "teeth" to put an end to the stupidity that was the Balkan War.  

FWIW,

Mark C


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## pbi (9 Nov 2005)

After some reflection, I have to second what Mark C says. I was a company commander in 1 PPCLI on Op HARMONY 04 in Croatia in 1994. We faced, on a daily basis, the issues he refers to. I will go farther though, to state that toward the end of our tour we did begin to become vaguely aware of the murky "big picture" behind the rearming of Croatia and its subsequent launch of Op STORM the following year. Clearly, the "Western World" led by the US govt of the day, hads decided to put its money on the Croats. But, nobody was telling us that, and it took me a couple of years to get even a partial picture of what went on. We didn't know any of it when our soldiers were risking their lives to try to enforce the UN mandate in Croatia, in the honourable (and big) footsteps of Op BACKSTOP and of the 2PP action at Medak.

The point is that the actions of a section commander and his soldiers can change everything in a place like FRY, or Somalia, or Afgh, or Iraq. We will always struggle with the tension with our innate soldierly beliefs of what is right and honourable, and what we are ordered to do to serve the higher intent. I know it was a struggle for me.

Cheers


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## SHELLDRAKE!! (9 Nov 2005)

Its interesting that I have never heard heard about this and if anyone has any legitimate info on the unit involved please pm me. I deployed on Cavalier 3 with 1 horse in 94. A section was deployed to the Bakovici mental hospital where one day we had some "local insurgents" flaunting a Canadian C6. It was as a result of investigations initiated on our tour that members of a certain french Canadian unit were looked at for doing certain things at the hospital and in the surrounding areas on the tour prior to ours.


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## 3rd Horseman (9 Nov 2005)

To all,

    I don't want to give the unit I trust after Mark Cs comment you can understand why. All that said what I can tell you is that a single officer execute the order to surrender the Coy complete with kit, the soldiers of all ranks right up to Coy 2i/c wanted to fight and did everthing in there power to resist the attack. Lost over those two initial days was from my count:
6 x UN OPs
6 x AVGP complete with kit, crew weapons, cbt load ammo
1 x Bisson complete
1 x Jeep complete
1 x Truck complete
6 x crew serve weapons from Ops, night gear, radios
1 x Inf Coy as POWs who kept there pers weapons

   Don't forget those that fought those days, not surrendered 3 UN OPs and some 20 soldiers, these soldiers held out for a week to 5 weeks depending on situation. They conducted fighting withdrawls until they were enclosed in one OP. Of the original 20 soldiers and 3 OPs two were later captured during fighting with the lose of two soldiers as POWs with one wounded in action.  At the end one UN OP remained with 13 soldiers left of the original 20 along with 2 x M113TUA, 1 x AVGP, 1 x M113. In these later fights another Jeep and Bisson Amb was lost to an ambush when they tried a rescue.

    It would be too easy to find out what unit we are talking about, I am sure many of you already know, out of respect for the soldiers that fought that battle and those that had no choice but to surrender don't print the name.


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## KevinB (9 Nov 2005)

I'm not sure it is a dis-service to print the unit - once the background as described by 3rd Horseman is offered.

 Anyway it does not start with a P  

 It has a R in it (front and end...)

 but no C

 ;D

Basically the R22eR got stuck in a very bad spot.


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## Cloud Cover (9 Nov 2005)

Its all public record- its not as if this was some sort of secret or clandestine operation. People might be feeling a false sense of embarrasment or humiliation over these incidents - which is not necessary IMO. Bottom line - these types of incidents are why the UN is to be shunned from undertaking or asserting control over these missions and our people. Hopefully the powers that be in the puzzle palace have learned a lot from this, and it certainly seems as if they have begun that process.


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## Acorn (10 Nov 2005)

What cause me the question the story was that it doesn't quite match the events in Bosnia that I'm aware of. Maybe it's the terminology (POW didn't come to my mind at the time) as the situation was one of the CDN soldiers in question being "blockaded" in their OPs, retaining their weapons. I was aware that some of their kit had been "liberated" from them, but not to that extent.

My apologies.


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## FormerHorseGuard (11 Nov 2005)

i remember seeing news footage of the war and seeing non Canadian soldiers operating what  looked like C6 GPMG , I knew it had to be stolen or something from Canadian Troops.  a lot of stuff went on over there and the Un chain of Command did not care. 
I hope who ever has the former Canadian jeeps, and AFV has a better maintance plan then we do , because they are costly  to fix lol.
I do not think any of the troops who lost equipment under the conditions and the stress they were put under , should be ashamed of anything they did. 

They did the best they  could under the conditions I am sure.


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## 3rd Horseman (11 Nov 2005)

If you watched the CBC show on PTSD the young soldier who was in Bosnia was one of the soldiers taken as a POW. I worked with him on an occasion before the event he was a good soldier it broke my heart to see him like that all these years later.


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## armyvern (11 Nov 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> What cause me the question the story was that it doesn't quite match the events in Bosnia that I'm aware of. Maybe it's the terminology (POW didn't come to my mind at the time) as the situation was one of the CDN soldiers in question being "blockaded" in their OPs, retaining their weapons. I was aware that some of their kit had been "liberated" from them, but not to that extent.
> My apologies.


There were the OPs that were blockaded but some Canadians were also taken POW during the Balkan conflict. I can still remember Capt Rechner all over the news tied up to a lightening rod and them threatening to shoot him. All being played out live on the TV. Meanwhile an RCD friend of mine had been taken as a POW and they had all been moved into a Police Station. The Red Cross was sending in packages for them as stated on the news, but my bud relayed to me that their captors had opened all the parcels to leave them with virtually nothing but the empty box.

http://www.geocities.com/famous_bosniaks/english/nicholas_ribich.html
http://www.histori.ca/peace/page.do;jsessionid=C40C85EB7A159ECB30B9FD422DB85BE6.tomcat2?pageID=340


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## pbi (11 Nov 2005)

Like many here, I did not believe the story about the AVGP when I first read it. I have since verified with somebody who was there that this is correct, along ith considerable losses of weapons. (Weapons were lost on our HARMONY tour in 04, but subsequently returned)  Personally, I find this business of trying to hide the unit's identity very silly. We're not quite so squeamish about dissecting Somalia, are we? So why Bosnia?  
As an Army we need to examine failures closely, see why they happened, and learn what we can do to avoid them in future. 
Not putting our troops on missions with useless mandates and weak ROEs is a good start. I do believe we are much further ahead now than we were in those days in Bosnia.

Cheers


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## Cloud Cover (11 Nov 2005)

Well, wasn't the airborne in the middle of it's death throws at that point in time - and the Somalia Inquiry was just ramping up to take giant bite of many sets of lower cheeks? It seems like this AVGP thing was definitely part of the army of yesterday. [hopefully].


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## Acorn (12 Nov 2005)

armyvern said:
			
		

> There were the OPs that were blockaded but some Canadians were also taken POW during the Balkan conflict. I can still remember Capt Rechner all over the news tied up to a lightening rod and them threatening to shoot him. All being played out live on the TV. Meanwhile an RCD friend of mine had been taken as a POW and they had all been moved into a Police Station. The Red Cross was sending in packages for them as stated on the news, but my bud relayed to me that their captors had opened all the parcels to leave them with virtually nothing but the empty box.



Capt Rechner comes to mind, but I didn't consider him a POW - he was a hostage.


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## Acorn (12 Nov 2005)

FormerHorseGuard said:
			
		

> i remember seeing news footage of the war and seeing non Canadian soldiers operating what   looked like C6 GPMG , I knew it had to be stolen or something from Canadian Troops.



The C6 is basically the FN MAG 58 GPMG in use by quite a few armies other than Canada. It could have been Canadian, but could also have belonged to another contingent or been bought through the underground arms market.


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## Bzzliteyr (13 Nov 2005)

I am at home right now, but I am sure there is a "lessons learned" dispatches booklet on our mistaken interpretation of the ROE during the early UNPROFOR tours and our failure to learn (or be taught rather) about our entitlement to SELF DEFENCE!! 

I know when I went to Bosnia-Herzegovina myself in 93, I had it in my head (as did many others) that the only time we could shoot was once we had been engaged, then identified the attacker, his weapon type and found the same weapon calibre to fire back with.  We were afraid to even cock our weapons over there and I could see how some equipment was "liberated".  It was too bad and had we been better prepared, several incidents could have surely been prevented.


Bzz


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## KevinB (13 Nov 2005)

Bzz   -- you gotta admit that was JAG inspired interpretations.  But the chain never took its time to explain that to the soldier -- I know I never gathered I had a pre-existant right to self defence until MUCH more recently.

 I recall the flip flop from the ROE in the proposed OP Cobra, to the fiasco with ROE on the DART Rwanda debacle.


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## Bzzliteyr (13 Nov 2005)

It was crazy.. people having their Iltises taken right out from under them at gunpoint, not knowing that as soon as they felt threatened they could have fought back!! We went there scared to do our jobs, and had we known the real "rules" we might have behaved a lot less wimpy.  

I recall once when one of the Brits whom I had befriended in our camp (Visoko) came to me looking for a spare 5.56mm.  He had dropped a mag and one had rolled out into a sewer.  He was afraid of a reprimand and I asked him why, he said they'd get in more trouble for losing a round than they would for having emptied out a mag returning fire in an engagement!!  All they'd have to do is write up a report saying they got shot at and 30 more rounds would come thier way!  I found that funny because I knew lots of us had collected extra ammo from wherever and had no problems losing any, but the complete opposite applied to us.. we wouldn't fathom firing at anything!!

Goes to show how the saying "knowledge is power" would come into play in those circumstances.


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## MG34 (13 Nov 2005)

Bzzliteyr

I don't know how that the soldiers and leaders didn't undersatnd the ROEs and the right to self defense,that was established on Roto 0 back in '92 and was put into practice on many occasions,what you are describing is a definate break down in the chain of command,and down right incompetance on the part of the leadership of that tour,pretty pathetic really. The ROEs and right to self defense were pretty well spelled out in both Roto 0 and Roto 5 of UNPROFOR in my personal experience.


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## aesop081 (13 Nov 2005)

MG34 said:
			
		

> Bzzliteyr
> 
> I don't know how that the soldiers and leaders didn't undersatnd the ROEs and the right to self defense,that was established on Roto 0 back in '92 and was put into practice on many occasions,what you are describing is a definate break down in the chain of command,and down right incompetance on the part of the leadership of that tour,pretty pathetic really. The ROEs and right to self defense were pretty well spelled out in both Roto 0 and Roto 5 of UNPROFOR in my personal experience.



I was on  OP HARMONY   roto 5 and i will be to differ on the clarity of the ROEs.   I though they were pretty clear until one day AAP drove on a mine and my section was called to go get them out.   I was the first one in to clear the road up to them and had barely gotten started when the bullets started flying. The BN ops O ( and OC of E coy)   was on the radio in very short order with instructions that we were not to shoot back.   So much for the ROE permitting self-defence.


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## pbi (14 Nov 2005)

I was on HARMONY Roto 04 and our ROES were, I would say, quite "robust".  We were free to use lethal force if we had reasonable ground to believe that our lives or the life of another Canadian soldier were in danger. This did NOT require us to wait to be shot at. We were also able to return fire with the weapon we were armed with: this meant that the ring gunner on an M113 could use the .50 cal. I know that on at least one occasion an OP returned Croat fire using a C6, which did not cause any problems.

These ROES were part of our pre-deployment training: in particular we taught examples such as kicking in a door and being confronted with a weapon pointed at you: the response was to fire, not wait to see what happened.

As we were still under the "shadow" of Somalia, there was alot of uncertainty amongst the troops about pulling the trigger. Despite our training, this uncertaint did not go away until they got into theatre. One night one of my patrols was fired on, and returned fire in a healthy manner. It was reported to battalion HQ and guess what: no Spanish Inquisition. I think that, after that, the troops felt better.

A good point has been made by Bzzliteyr: if the troops don't understand the ROEs, that is a command and leadership problem, not something to be blamed on the JAG. Just reading the ROEs out in the drill hall doesn't really cut it. You have to train with them and talk about them until they are second nature.

Cheers


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## TN2IC (14 Nov 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Was looking at a set of marking schemes for Grizzly tanks in an eastern European model kit today; aside from UN and three-colour camouflage markings for Canadian Forces vehicles, there was a paint scheme for a "captured Grizzly' taken from Canadians in Yugoslavia.
> 
> Does this represent an actual event, or does it represent a Serbian toy-maker's fantasy?



What is the model company? I build models as a hobby. I would love to get my hands on a Grizzly.


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## herringchoker (26 Jul 2007)

What a fascinating story but a bit too conspiratorial I think. The real story is a bit more mundane, but not a lot.

The vehicle in question was one of two lost by the Vandoos in the spring of '95 near Coralici, March or April I believe. One of the coys had been invited to the local Boz Serb bivvy for some getting to know the locals. They travelled by ML but took 2 x AVGP along as security. All the vehicles were left in the veh park with the drivers. Anyway, to make a long story short, about an hour or so into the festivities, the Vandoos suddenly found themselves the only ones without their weapons drawn. The Serbs made a dash for the vehicle compound but the drivers managed to get both Grizzlys moving, albeit sans gunner or crew commander. Anyway the two vehicles bolted away from the Serb camp but got hung up at a checkpoint a few kms down the road and both vehicles, fully kitted out, were grabbed by the Serbs (along with the MLs I think). The Vandoos were allowed to keep their pers weapons but had to walk out.

I think at the time there was a lot of thought that the drivers had screwed up but they were hypersensitive about bajaing with the AVGPs on that tour after one ran over a local child who had dashed out into the middle of the road. 

As for the Serbs, they were grabbing anything they could lay their hands on. Anyone who was there remembers that the summer of '95 was quite hairy (that was the summer of Srebernica, hostages and airstrikes). It was also the last roto for Op Cavalier as IFOR went in afterwards.

At the time I was with 2VP and we were gearing up to replace the Vandoos in Coralici. The Grizzlys were part of our intelligence briefing (along with the story of their seizure) and, as I recall, the ROEs allowed for the seizure of the vehicles if we came across them, including destruction to prevent their use by the belligerent forces.

Anyway, after OP Cav ended, we were bumped from IFOR (2RCR went instead) and, I think they moved from Coralici to Zgon soon afterwards.


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## 3rd Horseman (29 Jul 2007)

herringchoker said:
			
		

> What a fascinating story but a bit too conspiratorial I think. The real story is a bit more mundane, but not a lot.



  It is the actual story, now maybe the one grizz we are discussing was from another capture, possibly the one you described. I dont know, but the story of the loss I described is accurate and complete.

  Some guys are still waiting for the POW medal that will never come. For those that fought and held ground those days we got other satisfaction. 

spell typo


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## PAUL AYERST (16 Oct 2011)

the CANADIAN GOVERNMENT chose to cover up most of what really happened over in YUGO during that time period and this is one of the cover ups. Many troops who where wounded never received a wound stripe because the incident was officially recorded as an accident and lets not forget  MEDAK a TOTAL BLACKOUT and cover up I personally will never forgive the LIBERAL PARTY FOR. shameful


PAUL


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2013)

Just reading the website http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/vehicles/avgp/avgp.htm

_The captured Grizzly, as photographed and displayed on a Serbian website. ACE, a Ukrainian plastic model company, produced a 1/72 scale kit of the Grizzly with a painting guide showing the captured vehicle's new colours. The boxtop also featured a painting of the captured Grizzly, in a base colour of light blue-green mottled with dark green and olive green._ 


I never knew they captured some of our vehicles and I certainly don't recall the media reporting this. Any other AFV's lost in this battle? Any comments from people who were there would be quite interesting.


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## Bluebulldog (5 Feb 2013)

Covered in another thread on here.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36228/post-292333.html#msg292333

Cheers.


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Feb 2013)

thanks a good read, my search did not go back that far.


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