# Army Cadet Dress Regs updated 46-01



## Jabrwock (30 Aug 2008)

http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=46-01

Highlights:

- forbids CADPAT (no surprise there)
- authorizes CadetPAT/OD on FTXs (although they are a Field Training Uniform only, not authorized as a parade uniform, ie you can't wear it going to-from cadets)
- affiliated unit shoulder flashes are recommended for senior cadets only, junior cadets are encouraged to use the new corps badges, same with cap badges
- trouser belt is to be plain, or Army Cadet crest only, no CF insignia
- white web-belts for parade positions, guard, and band only, no more tri-service/CF belt buckles, only Army Cadet crest or affiliated unit

Left my initial question up in the air when I heard they were authorizing CadetPAT, while the pictures show OD with gold-on-green slip-ons, it doesn't say whether the slip-ons supplied by the Army Cadet League are authorized for use with CadetPAT. It does say that "Cadet Field Uniform sold at ACL websites" is fully authorized, so that might include the slip-ons the ACL sells as part of the FTU... But then again it might not, because OD slip-ons with "CADET" written on them are apparently a no.


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## catalyst (30 Aug 2008)

I wonder whats going to happen with the tri-service belt buckles


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## Jabrwock (30 Aug 2008)

Catalyst said:
			
		

> I wonder whats going to happen with the tri-service belt buckles


Go into the same drawer in supply as the old red rank badges I guess.


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## catalyst (30 Aug 2008)

Except that these are DA accountable items - guess the CF is getting a heck of a lot more back into the supply system. 

I've never actually seen an army cadet belt buckle or a blank one for webbing. 

I highly doubt that cadets will get rid of them - The sea side and Air side can still wear them.


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## Jabrwock (30 Aug 2008)

Catalyst said:
			
		

> I've never actually seen an army cadet belt buckle or a blank one for webbing.


Neither have I.



> I highly doubt that cadets will get rid of them - The sea side and Air side can still wear them.


Just the web-belt though, Air side can't wear tri-force trouser belts. I expect it won't actually come into force until they have a replacement. I have yet to see an Army Cadet crest trouser belt buckle or web-belt buckle. And the idea of a blank web buckle is just silly.


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## gwp (30 Aug 2008)

Jabrwock said:
			
		

> http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=46-01
> Left my initial question up in the air when I heard they were authorizing CadetPAT, while the pictures show OD with gold-on-green slip-ons, it doesn't say whether the slip-ons supplied by the Army Cadet League are authorized for use with CadetPAT. It does say that "Cadet Field Uniform sold at ACL websites" is fully authorized, so that might include the slip-ons the ACL sells as part of the FTU... But then again it might not, because OD slip-ons with "CADET" written on them are apparently a no.


The intent is that the only rank insignia to be worn is "cadet" rank insignial ... gold on green



> RANK INSIGNIA
> 76. General. Rank insignia shall be worn on the right sleeve of the dress jacket and on both slip-ons when wearing the shirt, the all-season jacket and the FTU. At CSTC, only staff-cadets wear rank slip-ons.





> INTERPRETATION OF CATO
> 7. If an item of wear is not included in this CATO it is not authorized and shall not be worn.



Only cadet rank slip ons (gold on green) are mentioned in the CATO


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## gwp (30 Aug 2008)

Jabrwock said:
			
		

> http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=46-01
> no more tri-service/CF belt buckles, only Army Cadet crest or affiliated unit





> 23. Trousers/slacks belt and buckle for Army Cadets. A narrow black web belt with brass buckle. Only those buckles with the Army Cadet crest or without any badge are allowed. Cadets are not to use the buckle of Canadian Forces units.


On the small trouser web belt buckle ... army cadet badge or blank.
With the ceremonial belt ... army cadet badge, affiliated unit, or blank. 


> y. white plastic/nylon ceremonial belt. Authorized for wear by cadets holding command positions on parade, by the guard and by the band. A brass buckle must anchor the belt. Only those brass buckles with the Army Cadet badge, the affiliated unit badge or without badge are allowed;


Can the Army Cadet brass cap badge be fixed in the place of the tri-service badge on the ceremonial belt?


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## Franko (30 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> Can the Army Cadet brass cap badge be fixed in the place of the tri-service badge on the ceremonial belt?



It would take some modificaton....if it's authorized. 

I can't see one buckle being a problem but several thousand would have to be done as a bulk order and, I would think, take some time.

Then you have issuing out to districts and sub units.

Again, someone re-inventing the wheel in Ottawa and going to cost the system monies that would be better spent on summer camps and training.

Cheaper to ask the Affiliated units to give out some buckles with the bonus benefit of strengthen the bonds between the cadet unit and the affil.

Regards


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## Jabrwock (30 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Cheaper to ask the Affiliated units to give out some buckles with the bonus benefit of strengthen the bonds between the cadet unit and the affil.


That makes sense, although for many new corps they don't have an affiliated unit, or their aff unit isn't as involved due to constraints like location/budget/etc.


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## Jabrwock (30 Aug 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> The intent is that the only rank insignia to be worn is "cadet" rank insignial ... gold on green. Only cadet rank slip ons (gold on green) are mentioned in the CATO.


Intent is for when you can't update a CATO, it's an interpretation handed down through the chain via memos. Why not clarify it when you DO update the CATO though?

They muddle things by stating that slip-ons must adhere to badge positions noted in Annex D, but Annex D only describes the rank badges and which army they go on the tunic, nowhere does it describe a slip-on and what it MUST contain (it doesn't even state whether slip-ons HAVE to have the word CADET on them...).

The only picture they have of FTU is the OD, and they DO show it with gold-on-green, but they don't show a picture of the ACL FTU, which DOES include it's own slip-ons (they don't explicitly exclude any part of the ACL FTU in the description of authorized FTUs).

There is one part where they state that only authorized cadet ranks shall be worn. So is the ACL rank slip-ons authorized, or not?

I think they missed an opportunity to clarify what really would take merely a sentence and a picture. Annex A, Page 11, make it a picture of the ACL FTU with GoG slip-ons instead of a copy of Page 10 which already shows OD-107. Oh, and tell the ACL to note this on their website too, so you don't have cadets spending $10 for a rank badge that isn't authorized (unlike the rest of the FTU, which is).


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## rwgill (30 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Cheaper to ask the Affiliated units to give out some buckles with the bonus benefit of strengthen the bonds between the cadet unit and the affil.


I was thinking that this would be the best way to go.  All CF regiments/branches already have an authorized ceremonial buckle...........correct?


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## Franko (30 Aug 2008)

rwgill said:
			
		

> I was thinking that this would be the best way to go.  All CF regiments/branches already have an authorized ceremonial buckle...........correct?



Yep. If not they fall back on the Tri Service one.

Again though....seems someone somewhere is picking pepper out of fly shyte.

Regards


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## Nfld Sapper (30 Aug 2008)

rwgill said:
			
		

> I was thinking that this would be the best way to go.  All CF regiments/branches already have an authorized ceremonial buckle...........correct?



Not avail through the supply system IIRC (Vern or any other supply tech in the know?), but can be individually purchased at the Kitshops.

Ex. I know that there is a different buckle for the white DEU belt avail in the CFSME Kitshop instead of being rectangular its round with the CME cap badge in it.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

Catalyst said:
			
		

> I wonder whats going to happen with the tri-service belt buckles



Well for starters ... they should be returned to the Supply system (vice tossed into a drawer never to be seen or used again) where they came from because -- WE STILL USE THEM in the ResF and the RegF.

No dilemma there.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

Jabrwock said:
			
		

> Neither have I.
> Just the web-belt though, Air side can't wear tri-force trouser belts. I expect it won't actually come into force until they have a replacement. I have yet to see an Army Cadet crest trouser belt buckle or web-belt buckle. And the idea of a blank web buckle is just silly.



Come into force??

As per the original link, they are already prohibited from wear IAW Army Cadet Dress Regs. That means --- they can't wear them NOW.

A blank web buckle is silly?? Why's that?? It seems to be fine for the RegF and ResF to wear a blank brass buckle on their DEU belts. Or is it all about the LCF?


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Not avail through the supply system IIRC (Vern or any other supply tech in the know?), but can be individually purchased at the Kitshops.
> 
> Ex. I know that there is a different buckle for the white DEU belt avail in the CFSME Kitshop instead of being rectangular its round with the CME cap badge in it.



Correct. RegF and ResF Units with their own insignia on their ceremonial buckles pay for these items using their Regimental funds. The buckles in the Supply system are the tri-service buckles.

Much like Regimental slip-ons/buttons etc are available for purchase at Regimental Kit Shops if you want them, but are not available through the CF Supply system.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

To add:

While any Cadet Corps with an affiliated RegF or ResF Unit is to be appointed a CLO (Cadet Liaison Officer) from the Unit to assist the Cadet Corps in achieving it's goals and provide direction/guidance as necessary. There is a distinct note made that affiliation *shall not * result in the ResF or RegF Units incurring any financial costs for the Cadet Corps.

Essentially, affiliated Units are not (as in shall not) to incur any financial responsibilities on behalf of the cadet corp. 

Now, I'm quite sure that the cadet side of the house could address this particular issue based upon the fact that IF an affiliated Unit WANTED to give their own Regimental buckles to the corp they were associated with, that really --- The Crown is NOT incurring a financial responsibility by their provision of such precisely because it would actually be the Regimental Association of the Res/Reg Unit that therefore was incurring the costs. That's not taxpayers money ... so that makes a workaround possible for those who wish to pursue it from that angle.

It would then become not a "given", but would have to be on a corps by corps basis in consultation with their affiliated Units. Affiliated Units would have to "yay or nay" based upon the constitutions which govern their own Regimental funds expenditures.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Yep. If not they fall back on the Tri Service one.
> 
> Again though....seems someone somewhere is picking pepper out of fly shyte.
> 
> Regards



Regimental funds. That's what your Regimental buckles are paid for with. And, even if they were paid for with Crown Funds contained within the CF budget - Cadets are not part of the CF; they are outside of Crown money and are not supposed to be financed with it.

It may be pepper out of flyshit, but do you really want a blanket policy change to Cadet Dress Regs to result in ReGF or ResF Unit Regimental funds being *required* to purchase and "donate" your brass buckles to affiliated cadet corps without having a say in such matters? It is after all your Regiment's money - you might want to know and have some say.


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## rwgill (31 Aug 2008)

Great points Vern.  Clears up the regimental belt buckle problem.

The tri-service buckles, does the cornflake not come off?  A blank buckle is better than no buckle.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

rwgill said:
			
		

> Great points Vern.  Clears up the regimental belt buckle problem.
> 
> The tri-service buckles, does the cornflake not come off?  A blank buckle is better than no buckle.



Yes, there are two types throughout the system; one type has the cornflake mounted right onto the buckle and one type has a hole in the buckle with the cornflake being attached via a screw.

Both the same NSN. I'm unsure which style is currently supplied into the system, but when a demand is placed - you could get one, or the other, or a combination of both.


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## rwgill (31 Aug 2008)

Thanks Vern.

I'll need to check out our supply later this afternoon, though I believe that we will just break down and buy some CFMS buckles.  They look much better, IMHO.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

rwgill said:
			
		

> Thanks Vern.
> 
> I'll need to check out our supply later this afternoon, though I believe that we will just break down and buy some CFMS buckles.  They look much better, IMHO.



I'll check Wednesday morning to see which is the current style on contract. I know there's a case of brand new ones sitting beside my whites in the MSA -- I'll just open 'er up and see what's inside; just before I march all the troops from B6 down to the Camp Argonaut parade square for Freedom of the City practice. I figure, giving them about 200 "change arms" on the march on the way down and back afterwards should suffice to irritate the hell out of them.  8) It'll be 0630hrs - I can blame it on "lack of sleep!!"  

I hear it's going to rain too ... so all of you driving by us ... be nice with those puddles - it's not like we can get any damn raingear in these parts.  >


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## Nfld Sapper (31 Aug 2008)

LOL saw the board the other day at clothing and noticed:

CADPAT Rain Gear ETA 12-18 Months
OD Green Rain Gear ETA 12 Months


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> LOL saw the board the other day at clothing and noticed:
> 
> CADPAT Rain Gear ETA 12-18 Months
> OD Green Rain Gear ETA 12 Months



And trust me -- they aren't lying.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - "Can you all say Command Pools"?? <--- Logistical friggin' nightmares that they are. At least the CLS has made Gagetown the number TWO priority on the list - Saint Jean is number one.

Ohhh ... and underwear just went "Ops restricted" again last week; so don't even bother trying to exchage them if you're not deploying.  :


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## Nfld Sapper (31 Aug 2008)

And not to mention all the other kit shortages like ground sheets


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> And not to mention all the other kit shortages like ground sheets



92 items. 92 items of Land Operational kit that are suffering from critical national shortages.

You should see the CLS' Op Clothing Plan - it's full of requirements to set up Command Loan Pools for these items. Rain gear. Ground sheets. Gas Masks. Rucksacks. Mukluks. ... WOW.

That's the problem with introduction of new kit items into the CF ... they never seem to account for the actual bonified requirement for the "old" stuff to STILL be purchased (like raingear - that the troops desperately need around here) while we await the arrival of the "new" stuff into the system. And the troops suffer for that lack of insight. They seem to forget that some of these "new" items are taking years to enter our system in enough quantities to make it out to all the troops ... what the heck am I supposed to issue to a soldier in the meantime!!??

My knitting skills are rusty, but getting better.


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## Jabrwock (31 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> A blank web buckle is silly?? Why's that?? It seems to be fine for the RegF and ResF to wear a blank brass buckle on their DEU belts. Or is it all about the LCF?


Sorry, I meant "blank with the holes there because we removed the tri-force". Because it's obvious something's missing.

And yes, it's partly LCF.  ;D


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

Jabrwock said:
			
		

> Sorry, I meant "blank with the holes there because we removed the tri-force". Because it's obvious something's missing.
> 
> And yes, it's partly LCF.  ;D



Oh sorry. My bad, but I thought you were talking about the trouser belts in your post vice the ceremonial belts. Trouser belts of course ... have no holes in the plain buckles.  



			
				Jabrwock said:
			
		

> Neither have I.
> Just the web-belt though, Air side can't wear tri-force trouser belts. I expect it won't actually come into force until they have a replacement. I have yet to see an Army Cadet crest trouser belt buckle or web-belt buckle. And the idea of a blank web buckle is just silly.


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## Franko (31 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> It may be pepper out of flyshit, but do you really want a blanket policy change to Cadet Dress Regs to result in ReGF or ResF Unit Regimental funds being *required* to purchase and "donate" your brass buckles to affiliated cadet corps without having a say in such matters? It is after all your Regiment's money - you might want to know and have some say.



What I was getting at was why all the fuss over the Tri Service buckle in the first place. 

It's in the system and was used in the past by nearly every cadet corps when I was in....what has changed since those times?

There are still the 3 elements in the Cadets are there not? I don't think that one of them could be mistaken for an actual soldier/ sailor/ airmen on a parade.

Seems that anything even remotely linking cadets with the CF at all is being removed, slowly over time. Now belt buckles? Come on.

If kids want to join Scouts or Girl Guides they do. 

Kids join Cadets for the military aspect of it so why is someone, somewhere trying their damnest to beat the military out of it?

As for giving the 2 affiliated Corps buckles, we have in the past. They even come up to Pet for our Regimental parades as well and, with enough numbers, fall in with us for a march past. So no, I don't...nor does the Regimental Association have a problem giving up a bit of money for kids to hold their head a little higher with pride. 

Actually I've never heard anyone, at any rank level, complain about anything dealing with our affil corps. If anything they jump at the chance to work with them or give up some time to help them out. It's a really good relationship that's been developed over the years.

But I digress to your original question....

_*I don't want to see a mandated requirement*_ for Regiments/ units to fork over association funds to cadets.

Regards


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

I see and understand your post.

Times have certainly changed since the days when I was in Army Cadets. Unfortunately, it is today's society (and vote counts) which govern how rules get put into place governing cadets.

You and I wouldn't mistake them for soldiers or members of the CF, but there's a whole hell of a lot of ultra-left, and even just slightly left, folks who equate cadets with: The CF is brainwashing children and using child soldiers.

More than one thread just on this site about BS like that. Sometimes, it's not actually what is fact that rules the day, but the _perception _ of the actuality amongst the general Canadian population.

And to get back to the Regimental affiliations - like you every Unit that I have come into contact with is more than happy to support their affiliated cadet corps, and like I said, it's more a matter of "not mandating" it rather than the "Regiment won't do it". MOST won't have issues with it at all.


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## rwgill (31 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Seems that anything even remotely linking cadets with the CF at all is being removed, slowly over time. Now belt buckles? Come on.


WRT belt buckles, if anything, Cadets are going back to their roots.

Prior to unification, Army Cadets, in particular, wore one of two possible symbols:  Royal Canadian Army Cadets or Affiliated Unit.  Unification, some say, left Cadets in a very grey area (this actually did happen to the CSofC/CIL/CIC).  Perhaps today, everything is headed back to the way it was.

The rank/slip on debate only started when Army Cadets switched to the standard CF Army insignia.  Prior to the 90s, cadets wore red rank.  You could not "discuss" what was a cadet and what was not.  With the switch to gold CF rank, cadets and the leadership became confused as to what was acceptable and what was not.  The CATO, if anything, is making things much clearer.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

rwgill said:
			
		

> WRT belt buckles, if anything, Cadets are going back to their roots.
> 
> Prior to unification, Army Cadets, in particular, wore one of two possible symbols:  Royal Canadian Army Cadets or Affiliated Unit.  Unification, some say, left Cadets in a very grey area (this actually did happen to the CSofC/CIL/CIC).  Perhaps today, everything is headed back to the way it was.
> 
> The rank/slip on debate only started when Army Cadets switched to the standard CF Army insignia.  Prior to the 90s, cadets wore red rank.  You could not "discuss" what was a cadet and what was not.  With the switch to gold CF rank, cadets and the leadership became confused as to what was acceptable and what was not.  The CATO, if anything, is making things much clearer.



So true. And, now that I think back to my days in Army Cadets ... the ranks on my sleevs & eventually the bars on my shoulders - were red.

I do recall wearing ceremonial buckles that bore the Regimental insignia of The RCR (2647 RCAC was an affiliated Unit of 2nd Bn The RCR); prior to us receiving those buckles from them for our ceremonial whites, I'm pretty sure that we wore a cermonial buckle that had the RCAC crest engraved/etched into it. <--- I could be rong here, it's been a couple decades.

That was back in the day though when we actually got a couple of occasions to go into the field with them and participate in some of their exercises for a weekend or two vice the corp just heading out to Blue Mountain on the back of a deuce and a half by ourselves and left to our own devices. Way back in '85, being a chick, of course they tossed me into the QM to work while we were out there with them. 

It was cool.


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## rwgill (31 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That was back in the day though when we actually got a couple of occasions to go into the field with them and participate in some of their exercises for a weekend or two vice the corp just heading out to Blue Mountain on the back of a deuce and a half by ourselves and left to our own devices. Way back in '85, being a chick, of course they tossed me into the QM to work while we were out there with them.


The training still happens today, with some rules, but cadets love that training.

QM couldn't have been that bad............since you are still doing it.


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

rwgill said:
			
		

> The training still happens today, with some rules, but cadets love that training.
> 
> QM couldn't have been that bad............since you are still doing it.



My dad was a supply tech ... long before I was a cadet.

If you have any idea how well girls going through puberty get along with their mothers -- you'll understand why I was forced from the house each Tuesday and Thursday night by my mother to go work with him at the QM in the Armouries ... mother needed a break from all my bitchin'. I guess, it just grew on me.  ;D


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## rwgill (31 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If you have any idea how well girls going through puberty get along with their mothers -- you'll understand why I was forced from the house each Tuesday and Thursday night by my mother to go work with him at the QM in the Armouries ... mother needed a break from all my bitchin'. I guess, it just grew on me.  ;D


I have a girl who's 4 so I guess that I'll have to wait and see. ;D  Perhaps there is still a chance that she will become Daddy's girl.

On topic though, I like many of the _changes_.  I especially like the fact that Cadet Jacket is specifically mentioned for highland cadets.  It was always intended/permitted to be modified into a doublet and now units are required to wear it.  For years, highland cadets have been wearing altered DEU jackets.


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## gwp (31 Aug 2008)

rwgill said:
			
		

> WRT belt buckles, if anything, Cadets are going back to their roots.
> 
> Prior to unification, Army Cadets, in particular, wore one of two possible symbols:  Royal Canadian Army Cadets or Affiliated Unit.  The rank/slip on debate only started when Army Cadets switched to the standard CF Army insignia.  Prior to the 90s, cadets wore red rank.  You could not "discuss" what was a cadet and what was not.  With the switch to gold CF rank, cadets and the leadership became confused as to what was acceptable and what was not.  The CATO, if anything, is making things much clearer.


This falls in the catagory of "everything old is new again" 
Before cadets adopted the present "bush jacket" type uniform (in the 1970's) Army and Air Cadets wore a uniform that was equivalent of the Army and the Air Force "Battle Dress" (with puttees).  Except the cadet tunics were lined.  Sea Cadets wore the RCN uniform with similar ranks.  

The army cadet sleeve insignia was Affiliated Unit flash ... Army Cadet in gold underneath ... the maple leaf patch with RCAC across it.  Rank insignia were the same white/Khaki on khaki for army cadets and white/silver on blue for air. 

For army cadets marksmanship, service stripes, master cadet badges were gold on khaki.   I still have mine.

In the early 1960's senior cadets were wearing TWs. with brass affiliated unit shoulder titles and collar dogs but with the army cadet flash and maple leaf below on the sleeve as described above.


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## rwgill (1 Sep 2008)

gwp said:
			
		

> Before cadets adopted the present "bush jacket" type uniform (in the 1970's) Army and Air Cadets wore a uniform that was equivalent of the Army and the Air Force "Battle Dress" (with puttees).  Except the cadet tunics were lined.  Sea Cadets wore the RCN uniform with similar ranks.



Is this what you are referring to?


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## gwp (1 Sep 2008)

rwgill said:
			
		

> Is this what you are referring to?


That was about 20 years earlier.  This is the era:


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## rwgill (1 Sep 2008)

Is that you in the pic?


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