# Stupid question about Basic - Aggression



## spock (11 Mar 2006)

I just handed in my application for the reserves yesterday, but I was wondering, in Basic, will the guys pick on you if you're not aggressive? I'm 17 and a pretty gentle guy, I've never gotten into a fight ever in my life. My mom was asking about it, I told her not to worry, since it is the canadian military and hopefully they won't tolerate that kind of crap. But I still want to make sure.


----------



## honestyrules (11 Mar 2006)

You will not get beaten up on course... 

There is one thing though...the duty of the soldier is to be fit to fight. I hope you have the will to fight. Don't forget that you want to join the army, to be a soldier, and the enemy doesn't care about 





> I'm 17 and a pretty gentle guy


...


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2006)

Basic Training SHOULD make you aggressive under control, I dont see it in the PreReq.'s for joining, so no.

I know guys in, who I doubt would hurt a fly if unnecessary. Just be sure, you're prepared to bring it if the time ever arrises. You ARE joining the Army...


----------



## spock (11 Mar 2006)

Thanks, I realize that. I just want to make sure that we're not as bad as the Americans, they seem to treat their raw recruits pretty badly...


----------



## GO!!! (11 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> Thanks, I realize that. I just want to make sure that we're not as bad as the Americans, they seem to treat their raw recruits pretty badly...



Treating recruits harshly is for a very good reason - it conditions one for the rigours of war later. If you can't handle someone yelling at you, you definitely won't be able to handle someone shooting at you. Seeing as we are at war, this should require little more explanation.

I'm sure glad you consider the CF to be the "kindler, gentler army" hopefully our homicidal enemies don't ever figure that out....

I've seen plenty of fights in the army, both in trg, and in the units. If you are looking for a place to continue being "gentle", do yourself a favour and look elsewhere. This is an organisation created for the purpose of killing other humans when necessary, at the behest of our government. This is not a summer camp or a place to help others. 

Think of a writhing enemy screaming on the end of your bayonet - make you queasy? If so, try tree planting, you'll make more money in the summer.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Treating recruits harshly is for a very good reason - it conditions one for the rigours of war later. If you can't handle someone yelling at you, you definitely won't be able to handle someone shooting at you. Seeing as we are at war, this should require little more explanation.
> 
> I'm sure glad you consider the CF to be the "kindler, gentler army" hopefully our homicidal enemies don't ever figure that out....
> 
> ...



Well put, me and words are no fan of each other.


----------



## Britney Spears (11 Mar 2006)

> in Basic, will the guys pick on you if you're not aggressive?



Yes, just like they did in Grade 6.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2006)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Yes, just like they did in Grade 6.



 ;D ;D


----------



## zipperhead_cop (11 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> I just handed in my application for the reserves yesterday, but I was wondering, in Basic, will the guys pick on you if you're not aggressive? I'm 17 and a pretty gentle guy, I've never gotten into a fight ever in my life. My mom was asking about it, I told her not to worry, since it is the Canadian military and hopefully they won't tolerate that kind of crap. But I still want to make sure.



Depends.  Maybe your definition of aggressive is different than others.  GO! was bang on about the violence part.  Can you handle that?  
I have met a few police snipers and two JTF guys.  They were all pretty cool and quiet.  Remember the saying "beware the quiet man, for he will strike without warning"?  There was a thing that went around the Net a while back.  Never did find out if it was true or not.  It was a story of a reporter questioning a Marine sniper about his job.  When asked what he felt when he was killing the insurgents, he calmly replied "recoil".  

I never got in fights either, even though I was challenged at bars all the time.  Fighting with some tool only wrecks your buzz and your clothes.  Now I get paid to fight, and that is no problem either.  
There is quiet, and there is being a pussy.  If you are just a quiet, grey, blend-in kind of guy, that is perfect on basic.  But if you are going to get flustered and weepy when a master corporal starts to question your genetic heritage and your mothers receiving of it, you may run into some problems.  
If you are pulling your weight and not being a burden to your course mates, they will have no reason to rag on you. 
Don't sweat it until you need to.  Good luck.


----------



## TCBF (11 Mar 2006)

"Yes, just like they did in Grade 6. "

_ Subtle, but she makes her point.  Life is like grade six.  You know those guys and girls you thought would never amount to much in life, because they were losers in Grade 6?  You were right.  losers then - losers now.  Bullies then - bullies now (though maybe a bit more refined...).

When I went to school (note onset of ominous music in background), parents and teachers were fond of saying that grade school teachers could predict who would do well, who would get 4 years in Stoney Plain, etc. Those sort of predictions are out of fashion now, but leopards do not generally change their spots.

So, yes, you will encounter your quota of sociopaths in the CF, more so than you would in the US military, because the US military has mandatory pschological testing for ALL entrants, but we are stupid and do not.

And it is costing us a LOT of money, believe me.

Tom


----------



## lawandorder (11 Mar 2006)

The guys on basic should be helping out everyone after the first week or so, after they've figured out the Army is a Team and all that stuff.  So unless you have a major problem with someone it should be fine. 

If you have good instructors they will challenge you more often then perhaps the others, to bring the agressive side out of you, you'll need it on your section attacks later in SQ.

And if people are making fun of you/or the instructors seem to be picking on you, remember that its all a big game.  Its a head game, sink or swim.  Play the game and you'll do just fine.


----------



## TCBF (11 Mar 2006)

And remember, the team thing ends where your safety and that of others begins.  If you think you have a wacko on the floor, don't try to cover for him/her or help them adjust, TELL THE STAFF.  Tell them of the threats, the ranting, the bullying, the buddy-f_cking, TELL THE STAFF!

Otherwise, the guy/girl will eventually fold, but damage others in the process, use up valuable med/psych staff time, claim a VAC pension for PTSD in basic, drive PAT/PAR platoon in Wainwright nuts, cost us an Airborne Regiment, etc.

Don't carry your TRASH - DUMP IT!

Tom


----------



## spock (11 Mar 2006)

Yeah thx guys, I'm just the kind of guy that doesn't like getting into the mess of the fight, mostly because I might get blamed for it afterwards (and get suspended, so on and so forth). I just don't want someone to take advantage of that. It's good to know that there's someone you can go to should this becomes a real problem.


----------



## 2 Cdo (11 Mar 2006)

Spock unless you are a true pacifist, basic training SHOULD bring out an aggressivness in you that is used under control and not allowed to run amok! If after basic, or during, you find yourself seriously questioning whether or not you can KILL your enemy then take Go's advice and put your release in. 

This is not meant to discourage you but is just a wake-up call. For if you cannot kill your enemy you are a liability to your section! Being that liability may end up costing the lives of your fellow soldiers! :threat:

That being said I should ask what trade are you enrolled as?


----------



## spock (11 Mar 2006)

I understand my role within the army is to destroy the enemy. Especially that I've applied for a combat arms trade, R021 artillery field soldier. But I'm not talking about the enemy in Basic, but the guys in the same uniform as I am. I just want to make sure that I can report any kind of unacceptable behaviour to my superior when I encounter it. I want to make sure that if the CF encourage a dog-eat-dog environment, where the aggressive are encouraged to pick on the more quiet and inagressive guys. That being said, if I'm been pushed too far, I will fight back, I just hope it won't come to that.


----------



## orange.paint (11 Mar 2006)

The army has a great deal of different types of people.I'm my opinion have you ever thought of a great career as a hippie?There is no room for Ned Flanders types in the army...they are here, but there is no room for it.

Basically I wouldn't worry about the guys in basic or battle school,their basically only civilians at that point.I would focus my worry at 5 years service in a regiment with people who prey on the weak.My question to you would be why are you joining a organisation that trains to kill/mame people,trains to be as tough as possible when you SELF DESCRIBE yourself as gentle!Maybe you have been brainwashed by Canadian media to believe all we do is put on blue berets and had out candy to kids.Do a little more research into what it is your doing.

Having said all that negativity remember you still have rights. If someone is giving you a hard time bring it up to instructors.

I am not the guy who goes looking for bar fights,starting shit for no reason.But prior to joining the army I pictured getting the shit kicked out of me for 10 weeks by instructors,crawling through mud etc....maybe it was my generation/personality but I was looking forward to that.I thought it was a army not a scout camp.But due to the gentle people like yourself who have entered in prior it's a safer place.


----------



## GO!!! (11 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> I understand my role within the army is to destroy the enemy. Especially that I've applied for a combat arms trade, R021 artillery field soldier. But I'm not talking about the enemy in Basic, but the guys in the same uniform as I am. I just want to make sure that I can report any kind of unacceptable behaviour to my superior when I encounter it. I want to make sure that if the CF encourage a dog-eat-dog environment, where the aggressive are encouraged to pick on the more quiet and inagressive guys. That being said, if I'm been pushed too far, I will fight back, I just hope it won't come to that.



If you want to be in the cbt arms, think of it this way;

Men attracted to the cbt arms are *usually* (not always) young, fit, aggressive (they find the idea of fighting and war attractive) competitive, (think organised sports) and placed in an unfamiliar, high stress environment that encourages dominant, leader-follower relationships. The expressions "eat your weakest man" and "you are only as strong as your weakest link" come into play. 

Those who are unable or unwilling to perform their duties, or who constantly make mistakes that result in punishment from their superiors can expect the other members of their team to try to induce them to quit, usually through social pressure (ridicule, ostracism) and in extreme cases, physical pressure (blanket parties/assault), although it should be emphasized that these are not very common.

The CF does act to prevent soldiers from being assaulted and picked on in training, but like I said earlier, if you are the weakest, most passive and quiet guy in the tent, there will usually be a bully who can sense a target, and ten other guys who will just go along with it. You can report every little thing you want, but your superiors are there to train you, not baby sit. Complaints are investigated, but if you can't protect yourself, you can't rely on the chain of command to do it for you. You must stand up for yourself!

In my experience, the soldiers who had the best experiences in their military careers were the assertive, more aggressive guys, with histories in martial arts, team contact sports, other risky endeavours (civilian parachuting, bungee jumping etc.) they were not choirboys, who characterised themselves as "passive" or "gentle". The more passive types generally left quickly, finding that the army was "not for them".

From what you have written here, I would look elsewhere if I were you. The army will not make you aggressive, it only magnifies the character you have. The aggressive thrive and the passive draw into a shell.


----------



## SeanPaul_031 (11 Mar 2006)

If youre going infantry and youre asking this question, I smell a VR.

Anyways, being on my DP1 course and seeing alot of people fall out, re-coursed, injured, VR, etc... I can say that yes there is a fair amount of "teasing" picking-on the weaker guys, After all this is the infantry and you are expected to be a hard-knock. 

Adapt and overcome, grow a tough skin if you dont have one


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2006)

A Sgt. once told me, "When i first joined, on my first day, i was told 'immigrants to the back' during a meal line. Right then i learned, broaden my shoulders and thicken my skin, otherwise i wasnt going to get far".


----------



## the 48th regulator (11 Mar 2006)

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> A Sgt. once told me, "When i first joined, on my first day, i was told 'immigrants to the back' during a meal line. Right then i learned, broaden my shoulders and thicken my skin, otherwise i wasnt going to get far".



When was this 1948??

Who  was this Sgt. that still served?

Sorry I am calling you on this comment.

dileas

tess


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2006)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> When was this 1948??
> 
> Who  was this Sgt. that still seved?
> 
> ...



PM inbound


----------



## the 48th regulator (11 Mar 2006)

PM awaiting.

dileas

tess


----------



## orange.paint (11 Mar 2006)

I will wade in this shallow pool.for anyone to say racism,bias towards sexuality and benefits of the two do not exist they should remove their heads out of their asses.Do I agree with racism?No.Do I know members with swastika's on their chest along with other symbols of hate?Yes.Do I see women who can't do their jobs due to weakness get placed in Gucci jobs?yes.

I've said this about fitness before,we are a small version of Canadian culture.You have the back woodhicks the ex gangbangers from "the T dot" and homosexuals.Depending where you come from and how you were raised  is how you will react to these people.If for one minute someone is going to tell me a 2 minute SHARP video is going toreplace someones lifetime of hate etc they are idiots.

Should this happen?No.Is it professional of this Sgt?Defiantly not. I know I've heard comments similar but only in a jovial manner.But alas even in a jovial manner this should not be displayed...blah...blah.. No matter what, it is going to happen until we all blend into a off grey colour, speaking "japaglish" drinking coffee at startbucks.

Why would you have to "call him out"? Unless you know him from the pres....then do tell!

cheers


----------



## the 48th regulator (11 Mar 2006)

> Why would you have to "call him out"? Unless you know him from the pres....then do tell!
> 
> cheers



So you are saying that the Sgt. was telling the truth?  Bull pooh!

2006 and he as a Sgt experienced that in this army???  

I joined in 1988 with the reserves, as shortbus has, and have never seen that, considering the PC movement of the '90 to the present.

All I ask is people to stop perpetuating the myth, just to sound authoritative for a post.

dileas

tess


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (11 Mar 2006)

The comment was made towards him in a jokingly manner (light ribbing, not exactly in a hateful context). I should have clarified that initially, which is my bad.

As for being called out, i don't mind. I've nothing to hide, so if I'm asked to clarify on something, or provide some validity, I'll do so willingly (within my lane mind you)


----------



## Gouki (11 Mar 2006)

Spock, to offer a different viewpoint, I have a friend who is very relaxed, very mellow, not aggressive really at all (I couldn't even get him to do boxing with me)

Now that being said .. he did great in basic, really great in SQ (so much his crse officer requested him to join his unit and got him there) and is doing very well with the engineers. Even manages to keep up and hold his own with them and the Sigs during PT. He's doing just fine despite being one of those quiet types. That being said, he doesn't take crap from anyone, and everything everyone else told you applies... just thought I'd give an alternate POV.


----------



## the 48th regulator (11 Mar 2006)

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> The comment was made towards him in a jokingly manner (light ribbing, not exactly in a hateful context). I should have clarified that initially, which is my bad.
> 
> As for being called out, i don't mind. I've nothing to hide, so if I'm asked to clarify on something, or provide some validity, I'll do so willingly (within my lane mind you)



And rcac_011,

I rest my case.

dileas

tess


----------



## orange.paint (11 Mar 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Should this happen?No.Is it professional of this Sgt?Defiantly not. I know I've heard comments similar but only in a jovial manner.But alas even in a jovial manner this should not be displayed...blah...blah..
> 
> cheers



um...thats sort of what I referred to.

And you mean to tell me you have never heard a racist comment?How and I quote "splitasses shouldn't be allowed in the Infantry"?Give me a break.I worked with units who were quite vocal on that.And If you actually say this stuff doesn't happen....time to get out from behind your desk and hit the floor with the troops.(and i apologise for that comment as it is NOT MY VIEW IN ANYWAY).And lets not forget the e mails....you know the ones.

So the pc movement of the 90's solved everything eh? bull.
Thats like saying drinking and driving laws stopped drunks behind a wheel.
Pot's illegal,so does that mean no one smokes it?
Personally I don't understand how you can say



			
				the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> I joined in 1988 with the reserves, as shortbus has, and have never seen that, considering the PC movement of the '90 to the present.
> 
> All I ask is people to stop perpetuating the myth, just to sound authoritative for a post.



In no way am I trying to sound authoritative.Your the SGT with 8 years in.I'm a mere Cpl. But I will say believe what you will,you'll find people don't change as they place the uniform on.Examples? rather not get people in trouble over nothing.

Believe what you want,you'll find out when you join.


----------



## spock (11 Mar 2006)

Thx guys, I guess my description of "gentle" wasn't the best one. I avoid fights to avoid getting into trouble (ie: getting suspended and stuff), I usually try to keep away from the mess of it all, and in school, I try to deal with others in non-violent ways, even if they're acting aggressive towards me, once again, because I myself don't want to get punished by the authority because I retaliated (remember in school, how they said you should always try to solve things in a civilized matter? I took that to heart). That being said, if necessary, I can and will defend myself and my dignity. But thank you guys for the heads up.


----------



## Rhibwolf (11 Mar 2006)

Spock, I joined as artillery, and I had suffered a great many beastings from the grade six bullies up until the day I joined.  Then, like the fellow who "squared his shoulders", I made it thru Basic, Battle School, and other courses unscathed.  The courses were physically demanding and mentally abusive, but we were all picked on back then, so none of the insults were personal,  per se.  I did the combat arms thing for 8 yrs, then military college for 4 before heading off into a career as an officer.  I have not been in many fights over the years, but that hasn't slowed me down or given me any cause for worry either: of  all the courses Ive done, Ive come in first in most of them, and was top candidate in all the ones that count - the Leadership Training Courses.  (this is not a boast or an invite for flaming)  Could I stand and deliver if placed in a situation? Absolutely, butthere is no reason to go looking for it either.  I wouldn't worry about Basic. Your "defend yourself and your dignity" stance will be more than enough.  Just don't let them ever get the best of you.
Yours, aye


----------



## ZipperHead (11 Mar 2006)

I have to agree with rcac_011: racism, aggression (overt or otherwise), sexism, and many other forms of -ism are still alive and well within the CF. They are most certainly hidden away, hiding in offices and canteens, rest areas, etc. SHARP and all the huggy-kissy policies did little to alter people's long held beliefs and opinions: it just made people watch their backblast, and whisper these thoughts instead of yell them out loud for all to hear.

I think that too many of these policies have caused the "wussification" of the CF, in the same way it did the same to Canadian society. If you can't handle a little of aggression, anger or even hostility directed at you, it will truly be a sad day if the first time you do experience it is in a foreign country (or even Canada) when the person across from you hasn't been SHARP trained, and doesn't have a clue what a Harassment Advisor is, and is about to jam his rusty AK down your throat. 

For the ney-sayers and non-believers, I have been hit (by an SSM with his pace stick for the grievous crime of not being in step when marching a person in on charge parade), called any variation of "homo" (it doesn't help that my last name rhymes with "homo-la") and "retard" and "sissy" that you can imagine, and I joined in 1988 as well. The Base Chief in Gagetown a bunch of years was African-Canadian (for the PC crowd), and he _allegedly_ had a placard on his desk that read "SNIC" (Senior N*****r in Charge). Is/was it right? No. Did it cause the world to end? No. We should be more concerned with having an effective fighting force than having a sensitive, tofu eating social circle that breaks down, pisses itself and curls into the fetal position when somebody says/does something that offends them.

Al


----------



## orange.paint (11 Mar 2006)

Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> it will truly be a sad day if the first time you do experience it is in a foreign country (or even Canada) when the person across from you hasn't been SHARP trained, and doesn't have a clue what a Harassment Adviser is, and is about to jam his rusty AK down your throat.



....and...he....sob...sob ...called me a infidel. ;D


----------



## the 48th regulator (12 Mar 2006)

> And you mean to tell me you have never heard a racist comment?How and I quote "splitasses shouldn't be allowed in the Infantry"?Give me a break.I worked with units who were quite vocal on that.And If you actually say this stuff doesn't happen....time to get out from behind your desk and hit the floor with the troops.(and i apologise for that comment as it is NOT MY VIEW IN ANYWAY).And lets not forget the e mails....you know the ones.
> 
> So the pc movement of the 90's solved everything eh? bull.
> Thats like saying drinking and driving laws stopped drunks behind a wheel.
> ...



I think I proved my point when shortbus clarified himself.

To say it did not happen, I would say I was living in a fantasy world.  For him to state that A Sgt. once told me, "When i first joined, on my first day, i was told 'immigrants to the back' during a meal line. Right then i learned, broaden my shoulders and thicken my skin, otherwise i wasn't going to get far". without explaining it was a comical, although racist, jest, it pushes the idea that it was done, accepted and the Said Sgt went to the end of the line.  Bull pooh.

Yes, I saw, heard and experienced all kinds of racist crap.  But I did not believe that statement happened with a little more of an explanation, than the cut and dry method it was first stated.

Either way, I proved my point, and he clarified his statement.



> So the pc movement of the 90's solved everything eh? bull.
> Thats like saying drinking and driving laws stopped drunks behind a wheel.



Really?  So you are saying that people still drink the way they used too?  Ever been to the mess lately?  Still the same bustling place as it was when your senior NCOs were young pups?  Go ahead and ask them, they will tell you that it was where the action was, at all times.  Now, only if you have some formal business to do.  

dileas

tess


----------



## orange.paint (12 Mar 2006)

You seem to take the last quote and twist it to agree with you.The post said nothing about drunkenness charges.The mess died due to pers not wanting to hang around work 24/7 talking "shop talk ".And with people joining at a much older age compared to the 1980's they usually have a family to go home to at the end of the day.And actually we got 2 guys DUI driving from the mess to the shacks one year.

Every Christmas break SOMEONE gets a DUI charge.Or drug possession.

The only point we are trying to get across here it happens and to deny it only happend in 1948 is crap.I understand you clarifying that certain one situation,but Spock wanted to know if this harassment stuff happens..yes.

Basically what ever happens on civilian street happens here.And if I can prevent this young man from joining by telling him the truth good for me.Personally I couldn't find myself on-line asking people if they thought I would be harassed in the army for being too gentle.

and I wade out of the shallow pool......


----------



## the 48th regulator (12 Mar 2006)

Spock I apologise for the Hijack, but I feel this may be a good lesson learned, myself included.

Ok  rcac_011 ,

The debate stems From one post where I asked and got clarification.

I will ask you the following question.  Maybe things have changed in the last couple of years.  But in this day and age of Sharp training, concern of ones career (reg or reserve), and a student body more apt to complain to higher that the following scenario can happen.

An instructor stands in front of a group of recruits right before the meal line.  He loudly states "All immigrants to the back of the meal line" and they do as told.

I think Alan nailed when he said;



			
				Allan Luomala said:
			
		

> I have to agree with rcac_011: racism, aggression (overt or otherwise), sexism, and many other forms of -ism are still alive and well within the CF. They are most certainly hidden away, hiding in offices and canteens, rest areas, etc. SHARP and all the huggy-kissy policies did little to alter people's long held beliefs and opinions: it just made people watch their backblast, and whisper these thoughts instead of yell them out loud for all to hear. .....



I do not deny it still happens, I deny that it is as open as that.  This is what we should be warning Spock.  Yes A lot of things continue to happen, the challenge is it is not in the open, and that makes it much worse.

So if the above scenario would still be able to happen, is an answer I would like to know.

dileas

tess


----------



## orange.paint (12 Mar 2006)

Agreed!

I will tell Spock a little story.I was 146 pounds .I went to meaford Ontario for battle school and the very first day of course a guy decided to mouth off stupid newfie or something like that.Fist fight got broken up and I found myself in front of a instructor,scared shitless.He told me to sit down and relax,and then proceeded to tell me "good job punching that fatass next time use a garbage can etc...nothing goes past this level".I was floored!Expecting to get in total shit as "fighting was unacceptable" and was almost rewarded for hitting this fat bitch.

Something you gotta remember Spock also is that even though your instructors are teaching you at that point in time,you must remember you most likely will be working with them sometime along your career.And if your complain about harassment etc people at the unit will hear all about it prior to your arrival (remember the admin NCO hears a lot and may be your peer in your section/troop later).

The 48th,yes I agree that it may not be so vocal as shortbus referred to.And I think we finally agree that yes it happens but on the lower whispered levels.Having said that there are people who come into troops that are razed and razed everyday,beaten on occasion etc.If you don't fit in you don't fit in.

We had one guy who use to keep all things said bad about him in a little book and at the end of the month brought it to higher.Nothing happened to anyone because it was looked at as childish behaviour on the complainers part (which it was) i.e "he told me to shut up during a o group".He is still know for that.


----------



## 3aXap (12 Mar 2006)

We had one guy who use to keep all things said bad about him in a little book and at the end of the month brought it to higher
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

wow. thats screwed up.

I am doing my BMQ right now and found that there are always certain people that get picked on by peers and instructors. Was it like this for all BMQs?

I consider myself gentle person too, but didnt really have any doubts like spock there. I just didnt know what to expect from the CF. So far its not so bad. Of course theres screaming and stuff, but I try my best to keep up.


----------



## aesop081 (12 Mar 2006)

3aXap said:
			
		

> So far its not so bad. Of course theres screaming and stuff,



WHAT  

Thats outrageous........whats this world coming to, someone  ought to put a stop to that nonsense


----------



## the 48th regulator (12 Mar 2006)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> WHAT
> 
> Thats outrageous........whats this world coming to, someone  ought to put a stop to that nonsense



whoa whoa big A, at least he was not told to go to the end of the line...

dileas

tess


----------



## zipperhead_cop (12 Mar 2006)

Steve said:
			
		

> Even manages to keep up and hold his own with them and the Sigs during PT.



Most people can arrange folding chairs around a card table.   ;D


----------



## Glorified Ape (13 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> Thx guys, I guess my description of "gentle" wasn't the best one. I avoid fights to avoid getting into trouble (ie: getting suspended and stuff), I usually try to keep away from the mess of it all, and in school, I try to deal with others in non-violent ways, even if they're acting aggressive towards me, once again, because I myself don't want to get punished by the authority because I retaliated (remember in school, how they said you should always try to solve things in a civilized matter? I took that to heart). That being said, if necessary, I can and will defend myself and my dignity. But thank you guys for the heads up.



Sounds like you'd do fine, judging from my own basic (it was officer basic, though, so it might be a little different). You'll get ribbing - from the instructors and your buddies - but I never found it to be too excessive. Some people tend to catch more s--- than others, but that's usually a function of their performance (or lack thereof) rather than their character. Having a laid-back character is a good thing, as long as you put the drive in when necessary. It helps you deal with stress. If you put in your best effort, keep standard (or better), and keep on top of things, you shouldn't have any problems with anyone worth their salt.


----------



## spock (15 Mar 2006)

Thx guys, but I'm curious, what were the worst BMQ experiences you guys have had. It might prepare me for the real thing, at least give me an idea of it. I'm joining the reserves by the way.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (15 Mar 2006)

Waking up at 4:45am, and hiking with all my kit to the bus stop every morning. The course was a breeze, getting across the city was the challenge...  :


----------



## Chauhan (15 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> Thx guys, but I'm curious, what were the worst BMQ experiences you guys have had. It might prepare me for the real thing, at least give me an idea of it. I'm joining the reserves by the way.



Stop worrying man, you got a messed up attitude you're scared shitless before even getting on the course im on BMQ and people dont say shit unless youu f*ck up I wont lie we have one guy hes a f*ck up and he takes a lot of shit from my section because we're always doing extra push ups because of him he's always late fucks up inspections, doesnt clean up after himself, buttons undone..if you do that stuff and youre told to correct it like this individual and you still manage to fuck up then done blame your buddies..blame yourself...and dont worry this aint jarhead you dont get some shiet engraved into u just do your shit and stop being a p*ssy.


----------



## Rhibwolf (15 Mar 2006)

Watching John G**y get fired into his locker by the MCpl, have the locker flung about, and us having to free the fellow later, after the MCpl had left.  But, these are not cro-magnon days any more, and you wont be attending BMQ with the cast and crew of Full Metal Jacket (well worth watching if you want to see what basic used to be like).

In Battle School I had a Sgt tell me he was going to touch me.  I backed up a step, thinking he was going to fondle me.  I sought clarification, and he informed me that because of enforcement of human rights he couldn't just hit the lint ball of my epaulette, so he was asking permission to remove it.  I replied that I probably would have been more comfortable if he had simply knocked it off with his pace stick.  He responded by throwing all of my FNC1 EIS out the window into 4 feet of mid-winter Manitoba snow. I acknowledged with steadfast silence.

I've done three basic courses.  BMT/GMT as a reserve, Basic Trg in Cornwallis, and Basic Officer Trg in Chilliwack.  All three had their ups and downs, and if you ask each person here to describe theirs, you will get as many different answers.  Ultimately, there is a lot of fun to be had, and a lot of difficulties to swallow.  Sometimes it will feel like you are drinking from the fire hose, but eventually, they turn of the water.  Its not so bad.


----------



## bbbb (17 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> I just handed in my application for the reserves yesterday, but I was wondering, in Basic, will the guys pick on you if you're not aggressive? I'm 17 and a pretty gentle guy, I've never gotten into a fight ever in my life. My mom was asking about it, I told her not to worry, since it is the canadian military and hopefully they won't tolerate that kind of crap. But I still want to make sure.



The Cdn military is no different from the US military in terms of aggressive tendencies. Unacceptable behaviour, in the CF, no... Just keep records of everything bad that happens, have 50 or so witnesses willing to back you up and yes, you can successfully report unacceptable behaviour to your superiors. Don't worry about a thing, your superiors won't care.


----------



## mac10inmymullet (17 Mar 2006)

-spock- I just handed in my application for the reserves yesterday, but I was wondering, in Basic, will the guys pick on you if you're not aggressive? I'm 17 and a pretty gentle guy, I've never gotten into a fight ever in my life. My mom was asking about it, I told her not to worry, since it is the canadian military and hopefully they won't tolerate that kind of crap. But I still want to make sure.

[Mod edit - completely inappropriate. Welcome to the warning system]


----------



## Big Foot (17 Mar 2006)

mac10inmymullet said:
			
		

> Well spock, I see you've never been in a fight before. Since your still in high school, you should find a guy that picks on kids all the time. Call him on it and start a fight. Try to kick his butt in. If you like fighting, join the army. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, then maybe you should look elsewhere. If you win this fight though, you'll feel proud and cool. You will even have more ladies talking to you and checking you out. Thats how she goes bud. Thats how she goes. Contrarey to religious and popular belief, it is survival of the fittest.


mac, I'm not sure who you are or what kind of experience you have thanks to your blank profile. However, fighting people does not make you proud or cool. Get off your high horse and stop abusing spock for being a compassionate person. It takes a big man to knock somebody out, it takes a bigger man to see that it's not worth the effort and walk away. Perhaps you can learn from that instead of being all macho on the internet. I for one have never been in a fight and I've been in the army 3 years and I feel I made the right choice. Fighting does not the soldier make. Pick your fights carefully.


----------



## mac10inmymullet (17 Mar 2006)

Big Foot said:
			
		

> mac, I'm not sure who you are or what kind of experience you have thanks to your blank profile. However, fighting people does not make you proud or cool. Get off your high horse and stop abusing spock for being a compassionate person. It takes a big man to knock somebody out, it takes a bigger man to see that it's not worth the effort and walk away. Perhaps you can learn from that instead of being all macho on the internet. I for one have never been in a fight and I've been in the army 3 years and I feel I made the right choice. Fighting does not the soldier make. Pick your fights carefully.



I totally agree with you. I once saw this kid in High School that just moved from Serbia or Poland or something smacking and calling names to this hot chick. I beat him to hell and knocked out like 4 of his teeth. If you wouldn't have done the same then...well, time to rethink your morals about always walking away.


----------



## scoutfinch (17 Mar 2006)

mac10inmymullet said:
			
		

> I totally agree with you. I once saw this kid in High School that just moved from Serbia or Poland or something smacking and calling names to this hot chick. I beat him to hell and knocked out like 4 of his teeth. If you wouldn't have done the same then...well, time to rethink your morals about always walking away.



Yep.  That makes you my hero.... :  

I have no doubt that the nationality of your victim was as relevant to your story as the fact that the chick was *hot*.

I suggest you get a grip on yourself before you start lecturing others here about morality.  

To be frank, the last person I want in a uniform is someone who is incapable of self-discipline in difficult times.


----------



## Big Foot (17 Mar 2006)

mac10inmymullet said:
			
		

> If you wouldn't have done the same then...well, time to rethink your morals about always walking away.


Not once did I say I always walk away. However, there are better ways of dealing with bullying than escalating force. I see absolutely no need to use excessive force in the situation you have just described. I think it is you who needs to re-think their morals.


----------



## mac10inmymullet (17 Mar 2006)

... :-[ I think I just fell of my stallion.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (17 Mar 2006)

Mullet if you don't stop acting like the neighbourhood thug with all your tough talk here you will soon wear out your welcome. 

Start reading the Guidelines and the FAQs provided.

MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html


----------



## mac10inmymullet (17 Mar 2006)

But I already said I fell off my Pony.


----------



## bbbb (17 Mar 2006)

I may not be army green but I know that self-discipline is the first thing a new CF member needs. Getting into fights or starting some does not sound very disciplined to me. Perhaps you would like to define discipline for us?

Truth Duty Valour


----------



## canadianblue (17 Mar 2006)

I love the great old jacking up if you didn't want to kill people you should have joined the police force, which then made me realize that in a few years I should join the RCMP.


----------



## canadianblue (19 Mar 2006)

> mac, I'm not sure who you are or what kind of experience you have thanks to your blank profile. However, fighting people does not make you proud or cool. Get off your high horse and stop abusing spock for being a compassionate person. It takes a big man to knock somebody out, it takes a bigger man to see that it's not worth the effort and walk away. Perhaps you can learn from that instead of being all macho on the internet. I for one have never been in a fight and I've been in the army 3 years and I feel I made the right choice. Fighting does not the soldier make. Pick your fights carefully.
> 
> 
> I totally agree with you. I once saw this kid in High School that just moved from Serbia or Poland or something smacking and calling names to this hot chick. I beat him to hell and knocked out like 4 of his teeth. If you wouldn't have done the same then...well, time to rethink your morals about always walking away.



Here's another situation for you, a guy was yelling at this girl that I was with, and I told him to stop and leave. He came up to me and started pushing me around, instead of getting into a fight with a drunken idiot I simply told him that I was going to get the police only a block down the road. I don't believe in walking away, but if something bad is happening to another person theirs always a better solution then fighting. As well if you seriously injure a person during a fight, or even kill a person how would you feel knowing you ruined your own life as well as somebody elses.


----------



## TCBF (19 Mar 2006)

"As well if you seriously injure a person during a fight, or even kill a person how would you feel knowing you ruined your own life as well as somebody elses."

- Well, you have to consider a lot of things there, but what if you did NOT kill/disable the perp when you were legally allowed to do so, and next week he went out and ran over family of five with his souped up Civic? Or raped some kid?


----------



## GO!!! (19 Mar 2006)

C'mon TCBF, we "nintendo generation" types have been raised with Barney and Care Bears. 

We don't fight, we talk and negotiate, and shake hands and everyone is happy.  :

For those of us back in the real world, violence is a *rare but necessary* evil. I'm pretty sure I would not be standing here today if I had let a number of young gang members surround me in a club here in Edmonton. I hit them back first - and the rest decided I was'nt worth the trouble. I have no doubt if I'd turned my back to walk away, there would have been a knife stuck in it. The people you need to worry about don't play by the rules.

Violence is a tool of last resort, used to protect life and property.


----------



## spartan031 (20 Mar 2006)

I stood toe to toe with numerous recruits at BMQ asking me what I am looking at or telling me they are gonna punch my face in going and alot of other people who told me they were gonna fix my attitude problem.

Never got into a fight though.

But then again I am a magnet for that kind of stuff,  throw a uniform on and it adds to the fun.


----------



## scoutfinch (20 Mar 2006)

TCBF said:
			
		

> "As well if you seriously injure a person during a fight, or even kill a person how would you feel knowing you ruined your own life as well as somebody elses."
> 
> - Well, you have to consider a lot of things there, but what if you did NOT kill/disable the perp when you were legally allowed to do so, and next week he went out and ran over family of five with his souped up Civic? Or raped some kid?



No offence intended, TCBF -- but I don't think any of us properly fit the role of judge, jury and executioner (notwithstanding that no one can accurately predict the future acts of a criminal let alone punish them in advance for acts yet committed).

Violence is undoubtedly a necessary evil in our society.  The key is that it be used in a disciplined manner.


----------



## spock (20 Mar 2006)

I agree that there are always better ways to deal with a situation than aggression. There's no sense in potentially ruining your own life because you can't control your fists... Violence should only be used when all other options are exhausted. That's my attitude I'm going to take with me to Basic.


----------



## TCBF (20 Mar 2006)

"Violence is undoubtedly a necessary evil in our society.  The key is that it be used in a disciplined manner"

- Agree 100%.  The operative words in my post were "... when you were legally allowed to do so ..." as the law is very clear in those cases.

"Violence is a tool of last resort, used to protect life and property."

- Life, yes.  Property?  No, but when you go to grab your property back using minimal force and the puke attacks YOU, then: yes.


----------



## derael (21 Mar 2006)

spartan031 said:
			
		

> I stood toe to toe with numerous recruits at BMQ asking me what I am looking at or telling me they are gonna punch my face in going and alot of other people who told me they were gonna fix my attitude problem.
> 
> Never got into a fight though.
> 
> But then again I am a magnet for that kind of stuff,  throw a uniform on and it adds to the fun.



It's interesting how that works because I'm the exact opposite. Although I have seen others like yourself that seem to attract that kind of attention almost by some strange unseen force. Call it bad vibes. 

It probably actually has something to do with body language, posturing and the way someone acts and reacts under certain situations...but enough speculation. I just find it interesting.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (21 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> I agree that there are always better ways to deal with a situation than aggression. There's no sense in potentially ruining your own life because you can't control your fists... Violence should only be used when all other options are exhausted. That's my attitude I'm going to take with me to Basic.



It's always nice to have a good "reason" to justify violence, and the "all options exhausted" sounds nice too.  Spock, you are going to be training to be able to go into a situation where you may be asked to end the life of a young, motivated individual like yourself because he/she is wearing different clothing than you, and is on the opposite side of an area.  Can you aim your 5.56 mm with a 3x sight, put the tip on their chest and squeeze off an accurate shot in order to kill them dead?  Like Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven:  "Killin' is a hell of a thing.  You take away everything a man has, and everything he ever will have".  
Imagine you are on a check point in Kabul and there is a woman with a child walking quickly towards you despite posted gates and your verbal direction to stop.  You can see that she is wearing a green martyrs head band and has a large bulk under her burka.  In her hand (the one not holding the her daughters hand) is a black item that looks like a thumb switch.  The kill radius for a decent suicide bomb is around 50m, and she is 75m away and closing on you and your buddies at the checkpoint.  You have rules of engagement that will allow you to take her out as a result of your training without needing permission from a superior.  Again, can you take the shot?  (example not provided to create hijack of checkpoint SOP's).  
Violence in our society is not the same thing as violence in a war zone.  There are some cold, hard, terrible things you may need to get your head around being asked to do.
I realize you are doing reserve training, and there is no current requirement to serve the Regs.  However, the potential to kill on command is a characteristic your instructors will be looking for.  If you can't provide this, you may get piled on a bit.


----------



## M Feetham (21 Mar 2006)

Spock,
The only two things you really need to remember about basic training is one: Do what you are told, when you are told and two: always accept responsability for your actions. If you screw up say so, don't let the platoon take the heat for a mistake. 9 times out of 10 all that will happen is you get called a couple of names and have to pump off 25 pushups. As for people picking on you cause you are not overly aggressive. Most of the young recruits coming in today will challenge you to a duel on Xbox or gamecube or ps2 before they will take a swing at you. Not all but most. Soft, sorry little things. However there is the odd one who talks tuff and tries to push others around, usually if two or three people talk to him at the same time with possibly ( you didn't see this here) an implied threat of physical discomfort on their part they will fall into line with the rest of the platoon. Remember it is your platoon and if you handle the internal conflict yourselves and learn to work together early then life will be easier in the long run. 
If you have any questions you can pm me.
Cheers Marc


----------



## bbbb (21 Mar 2006)

Discipline!


----------



## canadianblue (21 Mar 2006)

I never found much internal conflict within my platoon, but we had a really good bunch in 0216, much better then PRETC. If their is internal conflict, try to settle it within the platoon, it's best the instructors don't know about it, and if you screw up take responsibility and accept the punishment, its part of life. As for the violence part of being in the military, I personally am hoping that I don't ever have to kill or hurt a person unless absolutely necessary. Sure it's important to be aggressive, but I'd imagine compassion can come in handy too. 

When you screw up you might feel like shit, but you'll find yourself laughing at your mistakes later on, have a good sense of humor and don't life get you down.


----------



## orange.paint (21 Mar 2006)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> As for the violence part of being in the military, I personally am hoping that I don't ever have to kill or hurt a person unless absolutely necessary. Sure it's important to be aggressive, but I'd imagine compassion can come in handy too.



Don't recruits sit around cleaning weapons talking about killing people anymore? sounds like our new guys joined to hand out rice to refugees...wow...I guess its just the next generation who didn't watch Apocalypse now platoon etc.Remember there are always ROE'S and escalation of force but Jesus don't the instructors at least yell at you guys about being killers and stuff anymore?

wow
another thing how the hell do people on basic find time to post on this board?Sounds like some more floors need waxing to me.


----------



## GO!!! (21 Mar 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Don't recruits sit around cleaning weapons talking about killing people anymore? sounds like our new guys joined to hand out rice to refugees...wow...I guess its just the next generation who didn't watch Apocalypse now platoon etc.Remember there are always ROE'S and escalation of force but Jesus don't the instructors at least yell at you guys about being killers and stuff anymore?



Goodness no, what if one of them was too gentle and cried?

Idiotic posts like the ones above yours exemplify why there needs to be more violence in our military, just to drive out the tree hugging-never hurt a fly crowd who thinks this job looks good on a resume.


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (21 Mar 2006)

rcac_011 said:
			
		

> Don't recruits sit around cleaning weapons talking about killing people anymore? sounds like our new guys joined to hand out rice to refugees...wow...I guess its just the next generation who didn't watch Apocalypse now platoon etc.Remember there are always ROE'S and escalation of force but Jesus don't the instructors at least yell at you guys about being killers and stuff anymore?
> 
> wow
> another thing how the hell do people on basic find time to post on this board?Sounds like some more floors need waxing to me.



Nowadays, we'd probably get charged  :


----------



## ZipperHead (21 Mar 2006)

I think that a problem that has come up with the way that we have "evolved" (or perhaps more correctly, devolved) is that because people aren't "used to" aggression, so when it there way comes, they are incapable of dealing with it (also known as: curling up into a ball and soiling yourself).

People don't get yelled at in Basic anymore (as for as I can see), so now they are unaccustomed to naked aggression. Hmmmm..... I'm not a scientist, but wouldn't it stand to reason that there was a reason why the instructor's yelled at people, insulted them, threw things, made them do push-ups until the instructor was tired, etc??? I think it MAY have had to do with simulating stressful situations, like combat, which by definition is fairly aggressive.  

Today I heard soldiers doing pushups, as a group, yelling out the count, and I actually felt good hearing it. Controlled aggression is good. Now we just have to tell the jam tarts creating social policy that there is a place for it (in the military) so just leave us the fook alone while we train soldiers to be aggressive, so that they can deal with naked agression if/when they encounter it.

Al


----------



## zipperhead_cop (22 Mar 2006)

For as long as the military has trained men, they have been using a technique (even if they didn't know what it was called) of stress desensitizing.  The basic idea being if you are put under all kinds of stress in training, when you make it through the stress, you are that much closer to being able to deal with it the next time.  You see the special forces guys doing it in their drills.  Do crazy difficult crap enough times and it will be second nature.  If you have a master corporal going ape shite on you in the rain while you are trying to carry 80 lbs of crap over wet terrain on two hours of sleep a day and pull through, chances are you will have sufficient mental armour the next time he comes aboard you.  That is also why battle veterans are so much better under fire (on the whole) than raw recruits. They have been there and made it back.  If you want a link to a man who has this concept totally pegged, refer to:

 http://www.killology.com/

Our peer counselling team had Lt. Col. Grossman come and do a one day seminar for us and it was just about the best thing I have ever gotten to see.  The man is so switched on as to mental mindset for battle and combatting stress.  If anyone ever gets the opportunity to go to one of his presentations, move heaven and earth to make it happen.

Short of physically beating recruits to the point of injury, I would like to see things go "old school" again with regards to discipline, with all of the knowledge and professionalism that goes with being a modern soldier.


----------



## 1feral1 (22 Mar 2006)

Just remember, your instructors are NOT there to be arseholes, they are there to teach and introduce you to basic soldiering skills. You hone them even more during your initial employment trg or whatever its called in the CF these days.

Aggression is a team sport. For now, be more concerned about your confidence (assist others if they are having some difficulties), and working as a team. 

Learn to use your all your weapons effectively and to the best of your ability. Same goes as any other subject matter which is taught, whether it be drill, fieldcraft (including pers hygene), or mil law.

Just a few words from an old dog. In time everything will all become second nature, like blinking, and your confidence and assertive nature will grow efficiently, building up becomming well trained. 

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## zipperhead_cop (22 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> I just handed in my application for the reserves yesterday, but I was wondering, in Basic, will the guys pick on you if you're not aggressive? I'm 17 and a pretty gentle guy, I've never gotten into a fight ever in my life. My mom was asking about it, I told her not to worry, since it is the canadian military and hopefully they won't tolerate that kind of crap. But I still want to make sure.



74 replies later, doesn't seem like such a stupid question after all, does it?


----------



## Thompson_JM (22 Mar 2006)

one thing ive learned is that the only stupid question is the one you didnt ask, and should have...


Id rather my MCpl think im a little slow, and I get the job right, then have him jack me up for not completeing it properly, and not asking for clarification.

sometimes its a no-win situation, and he'll look at you like your an idiot no matter what... 
Good luck though! personally speaking Im a fairly non-aggressive gentle guy myself. you will figure out where to apply agression and where not to. IMHO its a learned behaviour.

Cheers


----------



## canadianblue (22 Mar 2006)

> Don't recruits sit around cleaning weapons talking about killing people anymore? sounds like our new guys joined to hand out rice to refugees...wow...I guess its just the next generation who didn't watch Apocalypse now platoon etc.Remember there are always ROE'S and escalation of force but Jesus don't the instructors at least yell at you guys about being killers and stuff anymore?
> 
> wow
> another thing how the hell do people on basic find time to post on this board?Sounds like some more floors need waxing to me.



I'm not on basic, I'm in PRETC awaiting QL3's. I watched Platoon, Apocalypse Now, etc. Didn't they kill some innocent civilians and rape women and children in those movies. If a person is only joining the military because they wanted to kill something become a mercenary, or something like that. People that find joy in killing I don't trust, and will never trust.


----------



## ZipperHead (22 Mar 2006)

I don't think that it is a question that the people here advocate enjoying killing, as I don't relish the prospect of killing someone. People that do are sociopaths. The fact remains that there has to be someone (i.e soldiers, police) that are WILLING to kill people, if the people of Canada (through their elected representatives) dictate that there are people who require that level of violence to be inflicted on them to get them to stop what it is that they are doing that we find so abhorrent (genocide, mass rapes, terrorism, etc). If one is to join the military, they are expected (unless they are a padre) to be capable of having to be capable of killing someone. Unless I missed the memo, that's pretty much all there is to it. If you are a clerk, a cook, a bosun, a aircraft navigator, if push comes to shove, you best be ready to kill. If not, get out of the military (or don't bother joining). 

Does one need to be a raving lunatic in peacetime, challenging all comers to a to-the-death round of fisticuffs? No. I'm sure that some of the most effective soldiers, sailors and airmen during all the wars ever fought were quiet, reflective people who didn't care much for killing, but were able to justify to themselves, at least, that that is what was required of them (at that particular moment in time). I'm more of a fan (in film anyway) of the idea of the reluctant killer, who only kills because they have no other choice, rather than the Rambo-style "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out" mentality. 

As mentioned in an earlier post, a good read is "On Killing" by Lt Col Dave Grossman. Very interesting look at how historically soldiers have been averse to killing, and it is only in modern times that militaries have become effective at creating "killing machines" (my quote, not his). His point is that we require controlled killers (police, military) not out of control killers (kids who watch too much violent media (movies, video games, etc)). Again, it is all about control and discipline.

Al


----------



## GO!!! (22 Mar 2006)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> I'm not on basic, I'm in PRETC awaiting QL3's. I watched Platoon, Apocalypse Now, etc. Didn't they kill some innocent civilians and rape women and children in those movies. If a person is only joining the military because they wanted to kill something become a mercenary, or something like that. People that find joy in killing I don't trust, and will never trust.



I would thoroughly enjoy putting a bullet or two into Timmy Taliban as he tried to place a roadside bomb that was going to kill me and the other men in my platoon. I would feel pride that I was able to fire my weapon in defence of my nation and comrades. 

I guess that makes me a sociopath - right? I personally don't give a $hit if you trust me or not - but you damn well better do your job.

Seriously, just find a job elsewhere, where you can help people, and never hear yelling or loud noises. I'll take the guys who can freely acknowledge that we are all better off with some people dead.


----------



## CEhopeful (22 Mar 2006)

I go to basic in may, Im 6'7, 205 and expect a lot of shit,my theory has always been to just look at them  in the eye and say "Fuck you", usually works, Im not much of a fighter, Im 21 never been in one, but I also get along with most everyone and I pull my weight.I Work the night shift at Subway next to about five bars, when I started I ahted being told I was shitty at making subs, now, I embrace it, almost enjoy it.good luck to everyone in and going to basic. this is by far one of the most useful threads I have read on here. cheers.


----------



## scoutfinch (22 Mar 2006)

CEHopeful... you could only work in Fredericton if you work at Subway surrounded by 5 bars.


----------



## CEhopeful (22 Mar 2006)

A good friend just told me this "that pain is weakness leaving the body", Im going to stick by that, suck it up and march on. cheers.


----------



## CEhopeful (22 Mar 2006)

HAHAHAHA!!!!How did you guess!!!yeah Im there every friday night, the tall guy who never smiles unless I see a smoking hot chick who Ill probably tell off because she wants free food.


----------



## scoutfinch (22 Mar 2006)

I am in Halifax... let me just say that I spent my share of time at Streetwalkers... um, Sweettalkers I mean Sweetwaters during my undergrad days!


----------



## CEhopeful (22 Mar 2006)

ewww sweetwaters. I like the capital myself, a lot of hippies though, who cant drink. and ex girlfriends.


----------



## scoutfinch (22 Mar 2006)

Ahhh yes... The Capital... I spent many hours there *studying* during law school!


----------



## spock (22 Mar 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> It's always nice to have a good "reason" to justify violence, and the "all options exhausted" sounds nice too.  Spock, you are going to be training to be able to go into a situation where you may be asked to end the life of a young, motivated individual like yourself because he/she is wearing different clothing than you, and is on the opposite side of an area.  Can you aim your 5.56 mm with a 3x sight, put the tip on their chest and squeeze off an accurate shot in order to kill them dead?  Like Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven:  "Killin' is a hell of a thing.  You take away everything a man has, and everything he ever will have".
> Imagine you are on a check point in Kabul and there is a woman with a child walking quickly towards you despite posted gates and your verbal direction to stop.  You can see that she is wearing a green martyrs head band and has a large bulk under her burka.  In her hand (the one not holding the her daughters hand) is a black item that looks like a thumb switch.  The kill radius for a decent suicide bomb is around 50m, and she is 75m away and closing on you and your buddies at the checkpoint.  You have rules of engagement that will allow you to take her out as a result of your training without needing permission from a superior.  Again, can you take the shot?  (example not provided to create hijack of checkpoint SOP's).
> Violence in our society is not the same thing as violence in a war zone.  There are some cold, hard, terrible things you may need to get your head around being asked to do.
> I realize you are doing reserve training, and there is no current requirement to serve the Regs.  However, the potential to kill on command is a characteristic your instructors will be looking for.  If you can't provide this, you may get piled on a bit.



True, despite being non violent, I also value my life above all other things. So, if I'm presented in this situation, well, as Robert Redford said in the movie Spy Game: "When it comes down to you or them, send flowers."


----------



## aesop081 (22 Mar 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> I would thoroughly enjoy putting a bullet or two into Timmy Taliban as he tried to place a roadside bomb that was going to kill me and the other men in my platoon. I would feel pride that I was able to fire my weapon in defence of my nation and comrades.
> 
> I guess that makes me a sociopath - right? I personally don't give a $hit if you trust me or not - but you damn well better do your job.
> 
> Seriously, just find a job elsewhere, where you can help people, and never hear yelling or loud noises. I'll take the guys who can freely acknowledge that we are all better off with some people dead.



+1

 :sniper:


----------



## zipperhead_cop (23 Mar 2006)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> I'm not on basic, I'm in PRETC awaiting QL3's. I watched Platoon, Apocalypse Now, etc. Didn't they kill some innocent civilians and rape women and children in those movies. If a person is only joining the military because they wanted to kill something become a mercenary, or something like that. People that find joy in killing I don't trust, and will never trust.



That is why you are a telephone operator.  

I don't think anyone is trying to find joy in killing (although, I am with GO!! on the idea of waxing some coward insurgent that thinks he is so clever planting a remote bomb) but I think the idea is being very comfortable with the ideal that killing may end up being necessary.  All of the sh_t talking around the boot polishing and weapon cleaning parties is also part of the desensitizing process.  Rehearse over and over in your head aiming a weapon and ending a life.  That way, when you are in the zone, when you have to do it for real, you don't need to think about it.  You just act and take a nice aimed shot.  It's like the story that went around on the email circuit a few weeks back.  Probably military urban folk lore, but a nice sentiment:

A foreign press reporter was interviewing various soldiers around Bagdad when she came across a Marine sniper cleaning his weapon.  She approached him and asked "what do you feel when you are shooting these Iraqi resistance fighters?" to which the Marine said flatly, without missing a beat "recoil".  

You can worry about feelings and remorse later.  That is what counselling is for.  And for that matter, talking about what happened in a battle with your unit is also a cathartic process (we call it a debriefing).  Just talking to someone who knows and understands what you are going through will help.  
Spock, if from your last post you are saying you will do what you have to do when the time comes, you will do fine.  Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you asking more about getting cock (a military term, not a sexual one) while on course than being able to do the job of a soldier?  I think we may have digressed a bit.

BTW, don't be ripping on Sweetwater!  It serves a valuble function to many a troop, and I'm betting most of you nay sayers, after being shot down at the Uni pub, hit Sweets for last call "just to see what's going on".  You're not fooling anyone. ^-^


----------



## CEhopeful (23 Mar 2006)

HAHA, I work to late to ever get in sweetwaters, but that country blaring from it really is enough to scare me off.As long as the Drill seargents dont sing country, I think Ill be fine.


----------



## scoutfinch (23 Mar 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> BTW, don't be ripping on Sweetwater!  It serves a valuble function to many a troop, and I'm betting most of you nay sayers, after being shot down at the Uni pub, hit Sweets for last call "just to see what's going on".  You're not fooling anyone. ^-^



Ummm. I am a chick so the likelihood of Sweets meeting the same function is slim.   

But I hear what you are saying.  We used to leave the Social Club to avoid the University hockey players.  We didn't mind the Gagetown soldiers at Sweets... in fact, I met some very fine military people there.... but Sweets is Sweets.  The music sucks and townies are enough to make you mental.  There are better establishments in town... depending, of course, on what you are looking for at the time! 8)


----------



## mainerjohnthomas (23 Mar 2006)

Aggression works for me.  Not everbody works that way.  I served with some guys who were so laid back that you'd swear they were medicated.  That said, they were eyes out on patrol, quick to respond, and not rattled under fire.  What they had worked for them.  If you don't run on adrenalin and aggression like most of the rest of us, well, as long as what you use works under pressure, then its good enough.


----------



## misfit (23 Mar 2006)

Wake up you wuss. You're setting yourself up for a wolrd of hurt with that wimp attitude. What are you really worried about?? Sombody calling you names? Smacking you in the face? Getting sworn at by some drill instructor? I'm sure nobody in your unit is going to "beat you up". You're joining a team that is supposed to work together. 

As with any occupation in life - you WILL run into people that don't like you. Its up to you to deal with it. If you are looking for a place where everyone will love you - stay at home with mommy.


----------



## CEhopeful (23 Mar 2006)

get drunk and get you friend to slap you across the face, then slap him, until you cnat stnad it any longer,wrestle,fight with your friends, it work wonders. 

The social club is okay,  minus the frat boys, but they arent so bad. a pitche rof liquor for 6$ is always good.


----------



## canadianblue (23 Mar 2006)

> Quote from: Futuretrooper on Yesterday at 18:18:10
> I'm not on basic, I'm in PRETC awaiting QL3's. I watched Platoon, Apocalypse Now, etc. Didn't they kill some innocent civilians and rape women and children in those movies. If a person is only joining the military because they wanted to kill something become a mercenary, or something like that. People that find joy in killing I don't trust, and will never trust.
> 
> 
> ...



No, I acknowledge that in situations violence is necessary to prevent the abuse of human life. But I don't think its good to get too fond of killing as some say recruits should be on here. I don't trust people who are simply obsessed with killing, I've met those types of people, and they seem like the type of guys that don't give a shit about teamwork, military ethos, etc. more or less just killing people. I would prefer to keep myself restrained, and use violence if necessary, if not then I don't wan't to kill anybody, especially if it turns out to be innocent civilians or children.


----------



## GO!!! (23 Mar 2006)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> No, I acknowledge that in situations violence is necessary to prevent the abuse of human life. But I don't think its good to get too fond of killing as some say recruits should be on here. I don't trust people who are simply obsessed with killing, I've met those types of people, and they seem like the type of guys that don't give a crap about teamwork, military ethos, etc. more or less just killing people. I would prefer to keep myself restrained, and use violence if necessary, if not then I don't wan't to kill anybody, especially if it turns out to be innocent civilians or children.



If your profile is true, you are'nt even in the army! You are on an enormous training base, populated mostly by recruits and senior (10yrs +) troops of the CSS variety. You have never met a unit of cbt arms soldiers, much less worked with one, been deployed or seen a situation where people ended up dead. You don't know the first thing about military ethos, real teamwork outside a school or anything else regarding the "pointy end".

As such, you are Supremely unqualified to make assertations regarding what is "good" or not for soldiers, or what recruits should be taught.

In short, I find your statements to be inconsistent with fact, truth, common knowledge and accepted wisdom.

I just hope you end up as a sysadmin in a basement somewhere so I don't have to worry about your pacifist "don't kill anyone" spewing ass watching my back.


----------



## mainerjohnthomas (23 Mar 2006)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> No, I acknowledge that in situations violence is necessary to prevent the abuse of human life. But I don't think its good to get too fond of killing as some say recruits should be on here. I don't trust people who are simply obsessed with killing, I've met those types of people, and they seem like the type of guys that don't give a crap about teamwork, military ethos, etc. more or less just killing people. I would prefer to keep myself restrained, and use violence if necessary, if not then I don't wan't to kill anybody, especially if it turns out to be innocent civilians or children.


      Soldiers exist to employ deadly force towards the political ends desired by our civilian leadership.  If you don CF green, then you are a weapon.  We neither want nor need soldiers who don't care who/what they kill, these people are sociopaths and a danger to the force they are in.  We cannot afford soldiers who cannot kill, or who will hesitate and get some of ours killed in the process.  There have been times when every available soldier has been thrown into the line, right down to the traditional "cooks and clerks and Sgt Major's band", so they had better be able to fight.  As seen in Iraq and Afghanistan, it is the support echelons who are as likely to find themselves in an insurgent ambush as our 031 specialists, so the support arms must either remember that they are soldiers first, or find themselves the "soft target" our enemies will seek.  I am a communicator by trade, a lineman and radop, but when fired upon, my reactions and training are those of any rifleman-to seek and destroy the enemy.


----------



## GO!!! (23 Mar 2006)

mainer,

Excellent point about the "soft targets".

I've read more than one statement from captured terrorists and anecdotal evidence that the enemy in places like Iraq will specifically _not_ attack a formation of infantry or other cbt arms patrolling, as they will be hunted mercilessly with snipers, infantry, helicopters and armour as soon as they fire the first shot. They instead concentrate on what appear to be logistics vehicles, and transport convoys, in order to survive the engagement.

A credit to the US training system is that many of the logistics troops have proven to be just as lethal to the insurgents as their combat arms brethren. They do not just "fire only to defend themselves" they attack, and kill - as is necessary. If every convoy just drove away, with personal safety and an aversion to killing, the enemy would only grow bolder.


----------



## Rhibwolf (24 Mar 2006)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> I'm not on basic, I'm in PRETC awaiting QL3's. I watched Platoon, Apocalypse Now, etc. Didn't they kill some innocent civilians and rape women and children in those movies.



Didn't some civies, who never joined up, never knew a soldier, and perhaps never saw one of those films kill, rape or otherwise commit some heinous crime?  come on now, dint paint soldiers as killers just because Stanly Kubric made a film.  Remember, we as members of the CF are representative of the population of Canada - we have our fair share of everything, from Saints to Satan.....


----------



## QV (24 Mar 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> mainer,
> 
> Excellent point about the "soft targets".
> 
> I've read more than one statement from captured terrorists and anecdotal evidence that the enemy in places like Iraq will specifically _not_ attack a formation of infantry or other cbt arms patrolling, as they will be hunted mercilessly with snipers, infantry, helicopters and armour as soon as they fire the first shot. They instead concentrate on what appear to be logistics vehicles, and transport convoys, in order to survive the engagement.



I believe that the Mujihadeen employed similar tactics against the Soviets during their conflict.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (24 Mar 2006)

misfit said:
			
		

> Wake up you wuss. You're setting yourself up for a wolrd of hurt with that wimp attitude. What are you really worried about?? Sombody calling you names? Smacking you in the face? Getting sworn at by some drill instructor? I'm sure nobody in your unit is going to "beat you up". You're joining a team that is supposed to work together.
> 
> As with any occupation in life - you WILL run into people that don't like you. Its up to you to deal with it. If you are looking for a place where everyone will love you - stay at home with mommy.



So what's your claim to fame, Sparky?  You're empty profile leaves your comments unqualified and sum up as trolling.  Spock already indicated that he felt he could do what he had to when the time comes.  I would rather take my chances working with him from his posting tone, than someone who goes off for no apparent reason.  
BWT, there is no cost involved to use the spell checker.


----------



## misfit (24 Mar 2006)

Wow you figured out that I have never been in the Army before by looking at my profile! And that makes me unqualified to have an opinion? I've still been alive for 23 years. Maybe you should have realized that I wasn't actually claiming anything. I'm in the recruiting process - just like him.


----------



## scoutfinch (24 Mar 2006)

misfit said:
			
		

> Wow you figured out that I have never been in the Army before by looking at my profile! And that makes me unqualified to have an opinion? I've still been alive for 23 years. Maybe you should have realized that I wasn't actually claiming anything. I'm in the recruiting process - just like him.




ohhhhhh... 23 years of life experience.  Yep.  I'd surely be looking to you for advice.

Did it ever occur to you there are members of the Board with *23 years of service experience* who are more than willing to provide advice to people with legitimate questions??  Those are the individuals whom should be providing advice.  

Until you have some *time in* or real living experience, you're advice is worth exactly what was paid for it.  Nothing.


----------



## Scott (24 Mar 2006)

misfit said:
			
		

> Wake up you wuss. You're setting yourself up for a wolrd of hurt with that wimp attitude. What are you really worried about?? Sombody calling you names? Smacking you in the face? Getting sworn at by some drill instructor? I'm sure nobody in your unit is going to "beat you up". You're joining a team that is supposed to work together.
> 
> As with any occupation in life - you WILL run into people that don't like you. Its up to you to deal with it. If you are looking for a place where everyone will love you - stay at home with mommy.





			
				misfit said:
			
		

> Wow you figured out that I have never been in the Army before by looking at my profile! And that makes me unqualified to have an opinion? I've still been alive for 23 years. Maybe you should have realized that I wasn't actually claiming anything. I'm in the recruiting process - just like him.



Misfit, you are currently on verbal warning and are facing the possibility of going up in the system if you keep on your current track, you've been cautioned before and ignored it, I suggest you rethink your course of action.

Maybe you can take some of the advice meted out above....?

The ball is in your court.

Scott
Army.ca Staff


----------



## misfit (24 Mar 2006)

Ok. I feel like an idiot now 
Sorry folks.


----------



## canadianblue (24 Mar 2006)

> If your profile is true, you are'nt even in the army! You are on an enormous training base, populated mostly by recruits and senior (10yrs +) troops of the CSS variety. You have never met a unit of cbt arms soldiers, much less worked with one, been deployed or seen a situation where people ended up dead. You don't know the first thing about military ethos, real teamwork outside a school or anything else regarding the "pointy end".
> 
> As such, you are Supremely unqualified to make assertations regarding what is "good" or not for soldiers, or what recruits should be taught.
> 
> ...



Well I never said that I wouldn't kill anybody, I'm just not a person that is obsessed with killing people. I understand the need for training, and I wish I was doing combat training right now instead of PRETC. Yes I like to think that I'm not in the army right now, because PRETC is a shithole. I'm all for controlled aggression, and think it's needed for any person who is in the profession of arms. As for CSS, yes I know that I'm not a real member of the army because I'm not a member of an combat arm.


----------



## TCBF (24 Mar 2006)

"As for CSS, yes I know that I'm not a real member of the army because I'm not a member of an combat arm"

- Whoever told you that is full of sh_t.   Soldier First - Tradesman Second, is the standard. .  Care to guess how many Allied attacks were stalled on the East and West fronts by German Kampfgruppen made up of cooks, CSS drivers, teamsters, mechanics and Flak troops?

-If you are NOT a REAL member of the Army - called "Soldiers" by the way - I guess that means an inferior commitment and leadership level that means all "any trade/any classification" leadership slots - Base Comd, Base RSM - will go only to Cbt A?

Is that what you mean?  Because Lions CANNOT be lead by Sheep, and if you are not a real member...

A soldier is a soldier is a soldier.  We ALL have our part to play, and ALL parts are important in winning the battle.

ALL parts.

Tom


----------



## CEhopeful (24 Mar 2006)

HOOO-AH!


----------



## spock (24 Mar 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you asking more about getting **** (a military term, not a sexual one) while on course than being able to do the job of a soldier?  I think we may have digressed a bit.



You're right zipperhead, my issue is not if I can shoot a Taliban in the face in a combat zone, I just want to make sure that I won't get **** by everyone in Basic because I'm not a pushy guy. I don't want to take my aggression out on someone wearing the same uniform as me.


----------



## spartan031 (25 Mar 2006)

Don't worry the PSP staff will bring out your aggressive side when they make you hop around and play thoose stupid simon says games.


----------



## spock (25 Mar 2006)

I heard those "Simon Says" game are specifically intended to annoy the living daylight out of you...


----------



## aesop081 (25 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> I heard those "Simon Says" game are specifically intended to annoy the living daylight out of you...



What else would they be for ?

BMQ isnt a big hugfest  :


----------



## Rhibwolf (25 Mar 2006)

With a jump, .... attention!
Short sitting position,...... change!


----------



## zipperhead_cop (25 Mar 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> You're right zipperhead, my issue is not if I can shoot a Taliban in the face in a combat zone, I just want to make sure that I won't get **** by everyone in Basic because I'm not a pushy guy. I don't want to take my aggression out on someone wearing the same uniform as me.



All the other stuff we have said here, and you can't use the term c_ck???? Rooster okay?  Is that a term that isn't allowed to be used in the ranks anymore?  Sorry if I'm out of date.  "Back in the day" that was the premere term of choice, with a bunch of qualifiers--rooster soup, roster-fest, mighty rooster, etc.  
Jeez, all of a sudden I feel older....


----------



## canadianblue (26 Mar 2006)

Demonstration Position.................... I didn't say change yet, change!!!!

I fully realize soldier first, tradesperson second. I realize the need for controlled aggression, and would be prepared to use deadly force to save any member of an allied force or innocents. Everybody should be prepared to do that if they are a member of the CF, however I simply state that a member should never become to fond of killing in my own opinion.


----------



## GO!!! (26 Mar 2006)

Futuretrooper said:
			
		

> I fully realize soldier first, tradesperson second.


But just a few posts ago you stated that you realised you were'nt part of the real army?  ???



> I realize the need for controlled aggression, and would be prepared to use deadly force to save any member of an allied force or* innocents*.


How do you know who is innocent? Of what? This is why we have ROE, so that people like you don't turn doing their job into a moral quandry. The ROE state when to shoot and when not to. The last Afghani that was killed in Afghanistan was *probably* not guilty of any crime. But it was still the right thing to do to shoot him.



> Everybody should be prepared to do that if they are a member of the CF, however I simply state that a member should never become to fond of killing in my own opinion.


Why? Some of the most decorated soldiers and pilots openly stated that they loved their jobs. They would continue to fly/fight, volunteering for missions, flying injured and forfeiting leave in order to do so. They were part of the reason we won two world wars. 

Killing is not a bad thing, when applied properly, and enjoying it is a personal issue. I enjoy hunting, and eating what I kill, why should'nt I? Soldiers killing the enemy in Iraq and Afghanistan right now are making the western world a safer and more prosperous place - why should they not enjoy that?


----------



## mainerjohnthomas (26 Mar 2006)

I grew up in a military family, and enjoyed my own time in.  I'm not saying that soldiers should be raving lunatics, but there is no reason you have to see killing as essentially evil.  Slaughtering the defenseless is without honour or merit, but killing your enemy in battle is not something to be ashamed of.  Like most of us, I guess I always yearned for the chance to put myself to the test; to go into battle and put my skills and training to the ultimate test.  War is not a game that gives silver medals, its not a game at all, and we didn't train to lose.  It may not be the brightest response in the world, but I always loved being a soldier, and the higher the stakes, the more I loved it.  It doesn't make you a psycho, it makes you a motivated soldier.


----------



## scoutfinch (27 Mar 2006)

I was recently asked by one of my children whether I thought I could kill someone when I told them I wanted to deploy to Afghanistan upon completion of my training.  After I thinking about it, I told him that I didn't look forward to killing someone but I was absolutely prepared to do so.  I don't relish taking anyones life but at the end of the day, in this business, shit happens.  The way I look at it, if I am put in the position of killing someone it will be because either I/my colleagues or the mission are threatened and any combattant willing to do so had better be prepared to fight to the end.  I don't think it makes me a hero nor do I necessarily think it makes me *aggressive* _per se_.  I think it is simply a survival instinct.

Would I be prepared to walk out on the street in Canada and kill someone.  Of course not.  That is legally culpable homicide.  In combat?  You wanna bet your bottom dollar.  Would I think twice about it?  I hope not... atleast not until after I had finished the job.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (28 Mar 2006)

Kids ask the darnedest things, don't they?  My daughter was watching me gear up before work about a month ago (just turned 4) and as always was interested in the items on my belt.  This time she noticed my black Hatch search gloves and was asking what they were for:

D--What are those for?
Me--To protect my hands
D--Why?
Me--Because sometimes I have to grab bad guys and hold onto them.
D--Why do you have to grab them?
Me--Some bad guys don't want to go to jail and they get all squirmy and try to run away.  Gloves help me hold onto them.
D--Oh.  Then you kill them?
Me--Oh, jeez.  No honey, we don't kill them.  We take them to jail.
D--Why don't you kill them?
Me--Because that would be bad, and I would get in big trouble.
D--Who would you get in trouble from?
Me--My bosses at work.
Thinks on this factoid for about 30 seconds and,
D--Daddy, you need a new boss.  

She never did get why I was laughing for about half an hour on that one.  

Seriously, though, explaining the role of infantry to or any combat situation to a child would be a huge chore.  I was watching a program the other night and there was a man getting ready to deploy to Iraq and was having a sit down with his 13 year old daughter.  Both are trying to be strong and brave, and both were having an equally hard time fighting back tears.  Gotta say I was a bit choked myself.
I don't envy any of you that will have to have a conversation like that someday.


----------



## spock (29 Mar 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Seriously, though, explaining the role of infantry to or any combat situation to a child would be a huge chore.  I was watching a program the other night and there was a man getting ready to deploy to Iraq and was having a sit down with his 13 year old daughter.  Both are trying to be strong and brave, and both were having an equally hard time fighting back tears.  Gotta say I was a bit choked myself.
> I don't envy any of you that will have to have a conversation like that someday.



Wow, my issue is completely different. My problem is trying to convince my mother, who's my sole guardian and an immigrant with no military knowledge whatsoever, to let me join the army reserves. That took some doing... When I got passed that, it was my aunt, who thought I was crazy for wanting to join the military, even if it is part-time. She thought that only poor people and people with problems in their life join the army, because that was the perception of the military back in China. Boy, it took me a long long time to convince them that that wasn't the case.


----------



## mainerjohnthomas (29 Mar 2006)

The Peoples Army is a club to be used against the people of China.  It is not staffed by an elite by any stretch of the imagination.  As the Peoples Army does not have the traditional role of protector in the minds of the Chinese people, it is not seen as an esteemed profession.  At different times soldiers have been seen as anything from saints to murderers, when neither has ever been true. Our army is a small group of dedicated professionals that any parent should be proud to have a child in.  I admit to some pride when my own daughters speak of wishing to join when they are old enough.


----------



## Rhibwolf (29 Mar 2006)

Its interesting to note the differences in social perception between societies, and how the military is viewed.  
I recall in 85 or 86, there was a Sikh who enlisted in the Arty. If I remember the details, it was a great honour for him to be in the CF, and his family was quite proud. To many caste and ethnic groups in India, military service has been an avenue of social mobility.  The same can be said for Chile, where being an officer in the forces is apparently quite a thing (according to my long time friend Capt. Jorge Rohas-Gonzales.  I gather that being in the forces in China is not a good thing, but then again, being in the CF doesnt open up many social gates either.....  I guess its all a matter of perspective.   In any case, Spock, I wish you all the best in your chosen profession. Ultimately, if you make your own choices for yourself, and you will be happier time and again.


----------



## M Feetham (30 Mar 2006)

Well, there have been some very interesting comments made in this thread all from a very simple request for information. For Spock, like i said before, you may run into a bully type person, don't sweat it, find the people in your platoon that you mesh with and work with them. Bullies usually wind up doing something stupid and getting released or recoursed in the end so they are really not a problem. Good luck.

For GO.
You will most likely be one of those people who wind up with Seven counsellings in the first 5 weeks of your BMQ. You are are a loud mouth and you really don't think about what you are saying before you say it. Yes ST Jean is a large training base with mostly recruits and 10 year + personnel. However most if not all of us who teach here have been in the Sh_t for real at one time or another. So before you start spouting off about things you don't have a clue about think about this. Most instructors here have been to Yugo, Somalia, Afghanistan, Chzech Republic and have been fired upon and returned fire at one time or another. Others have been in Aviano and Turkey making aircraft fly, while still others have been in the Gulf and on OP Apollo ,facing everything from SCUD missiles with chemical warheads to being stuck between an Indian battle group and a Pakistani battle group. These are all things that make the sphincter pucker at an amazing rate. Getting into a fight after a high school dance just doesn't count. So next time you want to make comments about the people who are already serving members of the CF, read this and then give your head a shake and don't.
For every one else if this goes against the rules of the site, sorry. I will accept any verbal, recorded warning that comes my way, but it had to be said.
Ready Aye Ready
Marc (Op Apollo Roto 0)


----------



## GO!!! (30 Mar 2006)

M Feetham said:
			
		

> For GO.
> You will most likely be one of those people who wind up with Seven counsellings in the first 5 weeks of your BMQ.


Nice one. I've been in the CF for several years now, and did quite well in all of my courses to date - NEXT.



> You are are a loud mouth and you really don't think about what you are saying before you say it. Yes ST Jean is a large training base with mostly recruits and 10 year + personnel. However most if not all of us who teach here have been in the Sh_t for real at one time or another. So before you start spouting off about things you don't have a clue about think about this.


So tell me, how much shit have* you * been in? How many times have you fired your weapon in anger? Have you altered the trg plan at the Recruit school to reflect your experiences? I've worked as staff on courses before too - and there is nothing worse than a service trade instructor sounding off about having "been in the shit", when they never went beyond the wire.



> Getting into a fight after a high school dance just doesn't count. So next time you want to make comments about the people who are already serving members of the CF, read this and then give your head a shake and don't.


I was busy after high school dances   son.I am a serving member of the CF, I've been deployed and I've done numerous courses, missions and taskings. The only head I'd like to shake is YOURS!



> Ready Aye Ready
> Marc (Op Apollo Roto 0)


 : : :
Is that a title now? Like VC or CD? I was on Apollo too - did'nt see too many Master Seamen around.

Sum up. Your bleating might impress a bunch of brand new recruits - save your stories for them.

GO!!!


----------



## Strike (30 Mar 2006)

Feetham,

I suggest you read the previous posts of a person in various threads before you go telling them what's what.  Reading a few of GO!!!'s posts, it is very quickly apparent that he has some experience.  In fact, a simple read of his profile would show that he did his Basic several years ago!

NEXT!

(OMG!!  Did I just defend GO!!!?  Someone, please check to see if I have a fever!)   ;D ;D


----------



## M Feetham (31 Mar 2006)

Hey Strike,
Good point, my bad.
GO, I shake my  and take a step back. No I have never fired my weapon in anger, but then I am a Radar Operator and my weapons leave the ship at moch 2. I have taken fire in Haiti and been stuck between two hostile Battle groups in the Indian ocean. I spewed before I investigated, wrong of me, won't happen again.


----------



## CEhopeful (31 Mar 2006)

Hello,
when were we in the Czech republic?just curious, but I dont recollect hearing of Canada being there, unless it was on vacation for that really good beer they have their.mmm, czech beer.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (31 Mar 2006)

Spock, after starting a thread this big and well debated, you better top your course this summer! 8)  
We will be watching for the quiet tall guy.


----------



## GO!!! (31 Mar 2006)

M Feetham,

HA!

You are talking to the master of the going - off - half - cocked - internet - flamer!

No worries, I have a thick skin.


----------



## bigjeff (31 Mar 2006)

aggresion id be more concerned about this comming back from tour "broken" thing...sonds not good


----------



## zipperhead_cop (31 Mar 2006)

bigjeff said:
			
		

> aggresion id be more concerned about this comming back from tour "broken" thing...sonds not good



Please feel free to start a thread in your native language.  ESL is difficult, so don't try to keep up here if you don't have to.


----------



## bigjeff (2 Apr 2006)

wow, i dunno what ya mean but , sure, whatever ya say there cheif.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (2 Apr 2006)

Not really for me to say, but since you asked...
ESL stands for English-Second Language.  Your posting style seems to suggest that English isn't your native tongue.  There is a whole section for French, or if you speak a completely different language, perhaps you could PM a mod and start your own thread in whatever you speak.  
However...
If English is your first language, feel free to apply things like grammar, capital letters (they don't take up extra broad band, FYI) and Mr. Bobbit has provided to us, FREE OF CHARGE, a spell checker that is just a click away.  Most of the folks here don't expect university professor caliber writing, but sounding like Yoda:

*aggresion id be more concerned about this comming back from tour "broken" thing...sonds not good*

doesn't tend to get too many nods around here.  You may be making a perfectly valid point, but it can't be deciphered from what you posted.  
Cheers.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Apr 2006)

bigjeff said:
			
		

> aggresion id be more concerned about this comming back from tour "broken" thing...sonds not good





			
				zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Please feel free to start a thread in your native language.  ESL is difficult, so don't try to keep up here if you don't have to.





			
				bigjeff said:
			
		

> wow, i dunno what ya mean but , sure, whatever ya say there cheif.


----------



## spock (2 Apr 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Spock, after starting a thread this big and well debated, you better top your course this summer! 8)
> We will be watching for the quiet tall guy.


Yeah well... at the rate of my application is going, I don't even know if I'll make it to Basic in the summer. It's been 3 weeks since I've handed in my application and they still haven't called me for my CFAT. I'm keeping my fingers corssed and answering machine plugged.





			
				zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Please feel free to start a thread in your native language.  ESL is difficult, so don't try to keep up here if you don't have to.


I've done a few years of ESL, man it was brutal! I sometimes still make grammar mistakes when I speak, and my white friends laugh at me, I would just stare at them and say " I'd like to see you speak Chinese ." I'm also doing French immersion now, hardest language I've ever learned, hope I might be able to practice it in Basic.


----------



## zipperhead_cop (3 Apr 2006)

Your grip of English appears to blow away Bigjeffs.  The irony is not lost on me.  
Three weeks isn't very long, unless you are waiting.  There is still plenty of time to get ramped up for the summer.


----------



## spock (5 Apr 2006)

I finally got my call (or rather I called them) for the CFAT, April 18th. Jeez, you really have to hunt down those recruiters  if you want your application to go through. I must've bugged the crap out of them for the past month, phoning the recruiting center 3-4 times a week. What kind of math questions are on that test? I heard it's gr.10 level, but are there going to be specific questions from the Math 10 textbook or stuff like that? I'm doing gr.12 math right now, do I need to whip out the Math 10 textbook again to do a refresher course?


----------



## misfit (6 Apr 2006)

spock said:
			
		

> I finally got my call (or rather I called them) for the CFAT, April 18th. Jeez, you really have to hunt down those recruiters  if you want your application to go through. I must've bugged the crap out of them for the past month, phoning the recruiting center 3-4 times a week. What kind of math questions are on that test? I heard it's gr.10 level, but are there going to be specific questions from the Math 10 textbook or stuff like that? I'm doing gr.12 math right now, do I need to whip out the Math 10 textbook again to do a refresher course?



It wouldn't hurt to practice eh? Better to be safe than sorry. Brush up on your grade 10 math skills with no calculator. Its pretty easy...but its timed so you gotta be quick. What trade are you going for?


----------



## spock (6 Apr 2006)

Artillery soldier, reserved. They don't allow calculators in there? How long is the test?


----------



## sober_ruski (7 Apr 2006)

I would have told you how long it is, and some other details... Buuut, they make you sign that statement that you wont talk about the content of the test.


----------



## Scipio (7 Apr 2006)

SIGH.

It's this very "non-aggressive" "PC pandering" image which has emasculated the Canadian army for decades now.  Canada doesn't have soldiers, we have peace keepers.  Not like the big nasty US.  

US marines rock.  They treat them like crap too.  Seriously, you want that kind of treatment, infact Canada could do more in this department.  I've seen our soldiers on parade, they are terrible at drill.  Go watch the British highlanders or US marines silent drill squad.  That shows disipline by means of harsh treatment.  Non-aggressive training will do nothing for you as a budding soldier.


----------



## George Wallace (7 Apr 2006)

Scipio

Could you clarify your comment a bit?  I was wondering where you saw Canadians doing Drill that was so terrible?  I know that they would not have been a Precision Drill Team like the US Marine Silent Drill Team, but I am really curious as to how bad you felt they were?  Perhaps telling us who they were and under what circumstance would clear up in our minds what actually may have happened.


----------



## Scipio (7 Apr 2006)

I saw groups from the Air Force, Navy, and Army march during a remembrence day cermoney.  They were totally out of sync, it was almost embarrising.  I could not believe that the march was not practiced and held to a standard.  Arms went arwy, legs out of sync, etc...

I'm not bashing our military.  I was just a bit put off at the lack of style that march had.  I suppose I shouldn't pigeon hole the entire CF into that category, but it really left a bad impression.

Jack Granastein also commented on this during his book "who killed the canadian military?".  During the early 90's, some British and Canadian soldiers put on a drill show for an audience of politicians and civillians.  Jack (ex CF officer) felt embarssed when the Canadian squad was clearly not on par with our British Counterparts.  Granted, It's hard to beat the Brits; Sandhurst has beaten West Point and RMC grads for the past 10 years in skills competition.  But the point did highlight my concern.

Granastein is the main reason I'm joining the CF.  I've read all his books and admire him greatly, he's probably the most loyal lobbyist the CF has in Canada.  I sent him an email and he had encouraging words about the future for the CF.  He said if the Harper government does not commit like the Mulroney cabnet failed too do, he will be shocked.  I was worried about a life time career in the CF, since our (liberal) government has been hell bent on cut backs and silly labels like "boy scouts" for our hard working men.  I did not want to be laid off at 40 years of age, so began looking over seas to join the British Military.  One email from Jack changed my mind, and I have the CF application in hand ready to join (soon as I can safely tuck 2.4 k in 10 mins)

Proper drill really does reflect the state of a military.  For awhile ours was looking pretty neglected, so it's only natural that ceremonial events and routine, such as drill, will be affected.  Canadian boys were to busy in non-stop Peace keeping missions and being over stretched to the fullest during the past decade, along with budget cuts.  So I'm not blaming them. Canadian's are as good as the best when given proper funding.


----------



## the 48th regulator (7 Apr 2006)

Then you will enjoy some of his posts here as well.

dileas

tess


----------



## Scipio (7 Apr 2006)

Awesome, he posts here!


----------



## scoutfinch (7 Apr 2006)

*"Canadian boys were to busy in non-stop Peace keeping missions and being over stretched to the fullest during the past decade, along with budget cuts.  So I'm not blaming them. Canadian's are as good as the best when given proper funding"*

The Canadian *girls*, on the other hand, were sitting on their collective asses eating bon-bons while the *boys* were busy with peacekeeping, right?   :

From

Scoutfinch... a non-boy.


----------



## Centurian1985 (7 Apr 2006)

Scipio:

Quote: I saw groups from the Air Force, Navy, and Army march during a remembrence day cermoney.  They were totally out of sync, it was almost embarrising.  I could not believe that the march was not practiced and held to a standard.  Arms went arwy, legs out of sync, etc...

Reply: I do not doubt it; it takes practice for formations to conduct perfect marching technique; most remembrance day ceremonies get 2 days practice and thats only for sizing, forming threes and practicing getting the officers on and off the parade square. Yes, as an Army soldier who worked a lot with the Air Force, it was a constant source of embarassment having to drill with many of these guys because some of them didnt know what they were doing (at some ceremenies I had to assist the unit RSM with rpoper guidelines, like NOT letting the reviewing officer walk between members of the colour party!).  Why? because they were doing more important jobs; making sure we were paid, feeding our troops, repairing aircraft, conducting SAR, flying ammo and food to points overseas.  I'll tell you, when I came in from a road trip across the country-side, I didnt give a damn about a Governer-General visit and the ensuing parade, I wanted the clerk to give me my ration card, then sleep, and eat decent food for the next 12 hours so I could go out and do another 6 days work of 16 hour days on the road each day.   

Quote: Jack Granastein also commented on this during his book "who killed the canadian military?".  During the early 90's, some British and Canadian soldiers put on a drill show for an audience of politicians and civillians.  Jack (ex CF officer) felt emberassed when the Canadian squad was clearly not on par with our British Counterparts.  Granted, It's hard to beat the  Brits; Sandhurst has beaten West Point and RMC grads for the past 10 years in skills competition.  But the point did highlight my concern.

Reply: You want Canadian soldiers to win a 'drill competition'!!!??? For bleep's sake, that is crazy (and a little scary). I'd rather have my soldiers be experts with weapons, tactics and first aid!  Mr. Jack can be embarrased all he wants beacuse frankly before 1990 the only things our guys did was Cyprus, Germany and Golan heights, which allowed a lot of time for "by the left quick march' (not including that hot summer in 74 in Cyprus for our airborne boys who were there when the Turks decided to do some land speculation - apologies to other who were in tight spots before 1990 that I cant recall at the moment).

Quote: Proper drill really does reflect the state of a military.  For awhile ours was looking pretty neglected, so it's only natural that ceremonial events and routine, such as drill, will be affected.  Canadian boys were to busy in non-stop Peace keeping missions and being over stretched to the fullest during the past decade, along with budget cuts.  So I'm not blaming them. Canadian's are as good as the best when given proper funding.

Reply: Ceremony has its time and place.  But there a lot more important things than marching up and down the square.  Drill doesnt reflect our military state, skill with weapons and equipment reflects the military state.  For example, the Gurkhas are as an entity, in my opinion, are the toughest little SOBs and best rifle shots, in the world, bar none.  They will drive themselves to the edge to accomplish their job and maintain their regimental honor.  Now who would I rather have backing me up in a tight spot?  A Squaddie of the First Lord Lieutenants Ottawa Super-Exact Drill Team (Elite), or a Squad of Gurkhas? 

Get in, get experience, and get edumacated!

Apologies to Monty Python: "Anyone got anything better to do than marching up and down the SQUARE? Right , you then, what?"
                                        "Sir, Ive got three reports to finish, then clean my weapons, ready vehicle, and leave in 3 hours for my next assignment"
                                        "Right, off you go then!"    .


----------



## 2 Cdo (7 Apr 2006)

> The Canadian *girls*, on the other hand, were sitting on their collective asses eating bon-bons while the *boys* were busy with peacekeeping, right?



Feeling a little oppressed! : Someone needs to lighten up, "the boys" is only a phrase and when near 90% of deployed troops are "the boys" he is not far off! :


----------



## scoutfinch (7 Apr 2006)

Just looking for a little accuracy with the Queen's English. 

I am not sure why that is such a problem?


----------



## Trinity (7 Apr 2006)

Scipio said:
			
		

> SIGH.
> 
> It's this very "non-aggressive" "PC pandering" image which has emasculated the Canadian army for decades now.  Canada doesn't have soldiers, we have peace keepers.  Not like the big nasty US.



WHAT... we're peacekeepers???

You are right out of it.

There is no such thing as a peacekeeper.  Read the other threads on this site.
The only person who is close enough to do the job IS a soldier, but we are not
a peacekeeping force

I really wish you would just close your mouth (keyboard) and open you ears and
eyes to the amount of flack you are causing because you have the wrong attitude
for the Canadian Military.  We would be your colleagues, and we are rejecting you
on almost every post.  If you don't listen to the good advice coming down your way,
I suggest your career will be short and painful.


----------



## HItorMiss (7 Apr 2006)

I wont even touch your "Boy's" comment.....

But I will touch the rest of your post about drill;

First off do you have a clue how hard it is to march in a formation that large? no of course not you have never had too, that's because your not CF material yet.

secondly do you know how difficult it is to hear the drum beat in a parade that large? no see my reason I gave above.

your out of your lane and you're trolling and your starting to piss me right off, Sum up.

you want to seek life on this board I suggest reading and less posting, then when you finally pass something you can come here in a few years and Post about how right you are, or you'll eat crow and say "guys wow I was an idiot"

not sure well forgive you but we might at least let you post im peace.

*Edit* I removed somethings cause I think they were just close enough to the line to be un called for


----------



## the 48th regulator (7 Apr 2006)

Scipio said:
			
		

> SIGH.
> 
> It's this very "non-aggressive" "PC pandering" image which has emasculated the Canadian army for decades now.  Canada doesn't have soldiers, we have peace keepers.  Not like the big nasty US.




hehehe Peacekeepers.....

OK Sweatheart,

Enough of the trolling.....I do detect something fishy....

I have stated my opinion on this subject publicly ,

Feel free to educate yourself.

dileas

tess


----------



## GO!!! (8 Apr 2006)

Scipio,

Since you seem to be such a proponent of  "harsh discipline" and snappy drill, and hold us (the CF) in such disdain in comparison to our US/UK counterparts, I would suggest that you check this website;http://www.br-legion.com/ang/index.html

I have met at least a half dozen former members of this organisation now, if you were to join, and return to Canada, you could undoubtedly give us all a lesson in harsh treatment and snappy drill, and as an added benefit, you would be in top physical condition and be fluent in the "other" official language of this country. 

Since you are training to join *this* military, I can only  assume that you have chosen to embrace that which you so disdain - and even more surprisingly, must struggle to achieve it!

A rather interesting conundrum, no?


----------



## M Feetham (9 Apr 2006)

Scipio, 
You funny little boy you. You want to be treated mean. You want discipline and screaming and yelling. I hope I get you in my platoon when, if  you finally make it to recruit school. You will not enjoy it. We don't pander to the kids here, even if we don't get as crazy as they did twenty years ago. The recruits work hard on BMQ and even harder on SQ and environmental training, so like the others have said, ziplip and pay attention, there will be a test at the end of the lesson.


----------

