# "Wavy Navy" sleeve insignia?



## Nieghorn (9 Jul 2014)

I work at a museum and this photo has stumped us all ... it doesn't look like a typical reserve sleeve insignia.  Possibly a "just heading off to war, haven't got my official ones yet" home made job by the missus? 

Thoughts?   Thanks!


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## Bird_Gunner45 (9 Jul 2014)

The Naval reserves up until unification wore the wavy line rank to indicate that they were reservists. As many of the people who fought in WW2 in the navy were technically reservists, they wore the wavy officer ranks.


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## Journeyman (9 Jul 2014)

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> The Naval reserves up until unification wore the wavy line rank to indicate that they were reservists.


Working at a museum, I'm assuming that he's aware of that; the point being the ones pictured are quite different from the official braid.


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## Edward Campbell (9 Jul 2014)

I also think the cap badge in the OP is a bit interesting, isn't it?





RCN (all components) officer's cap badge
1914-_circa_ 1952


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## Privateer (9 Jul 2014)

Does the context of the photo permit the conclusion that the uniform is some kind of merchant navy uniform?  See the image below, which is said (by an eBay vendor) to be an Australian merchant navy cap badge from the 1930s or 1940s.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (9 Jul 2014)

Not wearing RCNVR cap either: In dress uniform ashore you would not wear "darkened" hat, so the top would be white.

Could it be a member of the Fisherman Reserve (West Coast) that decided to get cute. They did not wear officer rank but thought of themselves as officers ?

P.s.: Bird_Gunner: The "wavy-navy" ranks were abandoned in Canada in 1946, further to the post war re-org. Between 1946 and 1968 (unification), the naval reserves (all of them folded into one)wore the same straight lace as the reg force, with curl, but with an "R" inside the curl for a while - and then no difference by the time unification came around.


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## Tibbson (9 Jul 2014)

My grandfather, who passsed away when my father was a toddler,  worked the lakers on the Great Lakes and he was a bridge officer of some sort when he passed away.  I have a photo of him in uniform and his rank insignia is similar.  We've never been able to find out which steam ship lines he worked for but I suspect this gentleman's uniform is from some sililar service, lakes or ocean going.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (9 Jul 2014)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> P.s.: Bird_Gunner: The "wavy-navy" ranks were abandoned in Canada in 1946, further to the post war re-org. Between 1946 and 1968 (unification), the naval reserves (all of them folded into one)wore the same straight lace as the reg force, with curl, but with an "R" inside the curl for a while - and then no difference by the time unification came around.



Fair enough. I remember the wavy navy thing from my NETP when I was at HMCS Scotian and thought it changed on unification. Thanks for the clarification!


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## q_1966 (10 Jul 2014)

Wasn't there two organizations, the RCNR (Royal Canadian Naval Reserve) as well as RCNVR (Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve), besides the WRCNS or Wren's and the RCN. Did the RCNR and the RCNVR exist at the same time (at one time)?


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## dimsum (10 Jul 2014)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> Wasn't there two organizations, the RCNR (Royal Canadian Naval Reserve) as well as RCNVR (Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve), besides the WRCNS or Wren's and the RCN. Did the RCNR and the RCNVR exist at the same time (at one time)?



Yes.  The RCNR and RCNVR have different types of stripes.  

http://mpmuseum.org/rcn/uniforms/officer/rcnrlt.jpg is an RCNR LT(N) rank


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Jul 2014)

It could be the jacket is from his shipping line with a particular style of braid.


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## Edward Campbell (10 Jul 2014)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> Wasn't there two organizations, the RCNR (Royal Canadian Naval Reserve) as well as RCNVR (Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve), besides the WRCNS or Wren's and the RCN. Did the RCNR and the RCNVR exist at the same time (at one time)?




There was an old joke about the three:

           "The Navy," the joke went, "was, like all of Gaul, divided into three parts:

                The RCNR (professional seamen and part time Navy officers) were sailors trying to be gentlemen;
                The RCNVR (the classic, modern reservists ~ Saturday night sailors, etc) were gentlemen trying to be sailors; and
                The RCN (the regular Navy officers) were neither trying to be both."


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## Mike5 (10 Jul 2014)

Thanks E.R. Campbell that made me smile!


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## Nieghorn (10 Jul 2014)

Thanks for your responses so far! Someone here was thinking "Merchant" but wasn't sure.  Will give us another thing to consider, but do keep sharing input if you have any more!


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Jul 2014)

If you know roughly where the picture was taken, try the closest Maritime Museum, they might have pictures of the local shipping line personal.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (11 Jul 2014)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> Wasn't there two organizations, the RCNR (Royal Canadian Naval Reserve) as well as RCNVR (Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve), besides the WRCNS or Wren's and the RCN. Did the RCNR and the RCNVR exist at the same time (at one time)?



They certainly did, plus the Fisherman reserve (which few people ever consider - but who ran most harbour service and defence crafts on the West Coast during WWII). From the inception of the Naval Reserves (note the plural) to 1946 they all existed as separate entities and, as I indicated above, they were all amalgamated into a single reserve force during the 1946 reorganization of the Navy.

The Wrens, which only came into existence in canada in 1942, were disbanded in the reorganization of 1946, but revived - exclusively in the Naval Reserve - at the beginning of the Korean war until unification. After unification, the wrens were amalgamated into the CF and, as enrolment of female personnel in the Regular force grew, took their place in the permanent forces. As a note: Their ranks in the naval reserve continued to use "wren" in the seaman's ranks until the mid eighties, so we had ordinary wrens, able wrens and leading wrens (no appointment of master seaman existed at the time), with all other ranks, including officers, using the unified Navy rank structure.


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Jul 2014)

the photo says RCN, but I think he might have been reserve






To bad the officer has his arms behind his back, the Gum boot navy


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## dimsum (15 Jul 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> the photo says RCN, but I think he might have been reserve



He's likely RCN - the curl looks round rather than the squared-off "curl" or the Star of David of the reserve elements.

As an aside, I'm fairly certain those jackets/sweaters that the Japanese-Canadian guys are wearing would cost a pretty penny these days at GAP, American Eagle, etc.  :


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## vincent.escanlar (27 Jul 2014)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> Wasn't there two organizations, the RCNR (Royal Canadian Naval Reserve) as well as RCNVR (Royal Canadian Navy Volunteer Reserve), besides the WRCNS or Wren's and the RCN. Did the RCNR and the RCNVR exist at the same time (at one time)?



A film "Royal Canadian Navy during The Second World War" captures all three in service together, side by side (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOHQHF34ORQ) - see 17:05:

"No longer could the members of the RCNVR be considered amateur seamen. Reserve officers from every walk of life across the country were now to be found serving in every capacity beside the experienced men of the RCN and the RCN Reserve."


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## Blackadder1916 (27 Jul 2014)

Nieghorn said:
			
		

> I work at a museum and this photo has stumped us all ... it doesn't look like a typical reserve sleeve insignia.  Possibly a "just heading off to war, haven't got my official ones yet" home made job by the missus?
> 
> Thoughts?   Thanks!



The insignia in the OP is Merchant Navy.  When I saw it my first guess was Radio Officer, since I recalled that their stripes were wavy but they were thin and not so bold.  Then I remember seeing something about "zig zag" stripes for Stewards.  Chief Stewards/Second Stewards (if in uniform) on British vessels wore one or two bold zig zag stripes depending on rating.  I don't know if the practice was followed in Canadian registered ships.  The single stripe on this fellow indicates that he is a Steward.

There are some Merchant Navy insignia at http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Badges/MN.html including this one.


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## sunrayRnfldR (13 Aug 2014)

Marine Atlantic use this pattern of rank insignia. The Chief Steward appears to wear three rows of zig-zag braid.


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## q_1966 (28 Aug 2014)

Marine Atlantic?


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## Lightguns (28 Aug 2014)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> Marine Atlantic?



The ferry to PEI!


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## my72jeep (28 Aug 2014)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> The ferry to PEI!


And to Newfoundland.


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## cupper (28 Aug 2014)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> The ferry to PEI!



Marine Atlantic doesn't operate the PEI Ferry. Northumberland Ferrys Limited is the owner operator.

Marine Atlantic runs the ferry from Digby to Saint John also.


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## Nfld Sapper (3 Sep 2014)

cupper said:
			
		

> Marine Atlantic doesn't operate the PEI Ferry. Northumberland Ferrys Limited is the owner operator.
> 
> Marine Atlantic runs the ferry from Digby to Saint John also.



Bay Ferries run the Digby to Saint John run....

Marine Atlantic only does the NS/NL runs and is a crown corporation....


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## cupper (3 Sep 2014)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Bay Ferries run the Digby to Saint John run....
> 
> Marine Atlantic only does the NS/NL runs and is a crown corporation....



My mistake, I didn't realize they had transferred the Digby - Saint John service to Bay Ferries, which is owned by Northumberland Ferries. 

Turns out Marine Atlantic divested all but the NS to NFLD services in 1997. This included Yarmouth - Maine, Borden - PEI (once the Confederation Bridge was completed) and outport runs along the south coast of Newfoundland and Northern Newfoundland / Labrador.


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## Nieghorn (5 Sep 2014)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The insignia in the OP is Merchant Navy.  When I saw it my first guess was Radio Officer, since I recalled that their stripes were wavy but they were thin and not so bold.  Then I remember seeing something about "zig zag" stripes for Stewards.  Chief Stewards/Second Stewards (if in uniform) on British vessels wore one or two bold zig zag stripes depending on rating.  I don't know if the practice was followed in Canadian registered ships.  The single stripe on this fellow indicates that he is a Steward.
> 
> There are some Merchant Navy insignia at http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Badges/MN.html including this one.



Thanks a lot for that! Will share the information around with the other staffers here!


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