# Terrorist Assaults on France (Jan 2015) - Charlie Hebdo, Executed Police, Gun Fights and Hostage Tak



## dimsum (7 Jan 2015)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883


> The satirical weekly has courted controversy in the past with its take on news and current affairs.
> 
> Its latest tweet was a cartoon of the Islamic State militant group leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.



RIP.  Hope the French authorities get them.


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## ModlrMike (7 Jan 2015)

The French have a history of being "thorough" in these sorts of investigations.


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## McG (7 Jan 2015)

12 are being reported ask killed now, including two police.  The gunmen managed to break contact in a car.


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## jollyjacktar (7 Jan 2015)

CBC was showing some edited footage on the news channel.  My condolences go to the famlies, friends and co-workers of the victims as well as the citizens of Paris and France.  I hope the Republic does a full court press on everyone connected to this attack as I'm sure they will.


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## cryco (7 Jan 2015)

Did I hear right, the killers asked for the victims by name? 
Condolences to the families, RIP to the victims.


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## kratz (7 Jan 2015)

Yes, CTV is reporting the attackers did ask for specific people by name.

My condolances to family, friends and coworkers.


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## tomahawk6 (7 Jan 2015)

Two officers on guard outside were killed.Its looking like ISIS veterans.Police will be taking a different approach to these returning terrorists IMO.


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## Old Sweat (7 Jan 2015)

Note that the terrorists also had a get away plan, which means they did not plan to seek martyrdom and have the potential to strike again. It is being reported that they attacked while the weekly editorial meeting was underway which implies some knowledge, inside or not, as well as careful planning.


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## cryco (7 Jan 2015)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Two officers on guard outside were killed.Its looking like ISIS veterans.Police will be taking a different approach to these returning terrorists IMO.



If they can find them and prove it, it should influence how all countries deal with ISIS trained returning citizens of western countries.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Jan 2015)

A very graphic video is on the french sites showing them executing one of the police officers.


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## George Wallace (7 Jan 2015)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Two officers on guard outside were killed.Its looking like ISIS veterans.Police will be taking a different approach to these returning terrorists IMO.



They were not just killed.  Video shows two terrorists going to a wounded Police officer and executing him.  

Eventually, the rest of the world religions will have had enough of "turning the other cheek" and will rally against these barbarians.  The question is now: when?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Jan 2015)

I have a queasy feeling the next few weeks may be a bad time to be a Muslim in France........


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## The Bread Guy (7 Jan 2015)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I have a queasy feeling the next few weeks may be a bad time to be a Muslim in France........


 :nod:


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## George Wallace (7 Jan 2015)

France has the largest Muslim population in Europe.  Islamic radicals have been conducting acts of violence, ranging from violent protests to armed attacks, since the 1950's.  This is not new to the French, and they have large Security organizations that have proven in the past to be very effective in tracking down violent perpetrators.  The attacks of Legionnaires in Southern France, a couple of years ago, is an example of how effective these Security forces can be in tracking down the culprits of the attacks.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Jan 2015)

It's going to give the French Fascists & skinheads freedom to go after Muslims, as long as they target the nutbars I don't have a problem with nutbars doing other nutbars, except they will choose the easy targets instead.


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## The Bread Guy (7 Jan 2015)

This, from our PM:


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper today issued the following statement on the shooting that occurred in Paris, France:
> 
> “I am angered and saddened to hear of the terrorist attack today in the offices of the Parisian news magazine “Charlie Hebdo,” which has killed at least 12 individuals, including two police officers.
> 
> ...


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## George Wallace (7 Jan 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> A very graphic video is on the french sites showing them executing one of the police officers.



LiveLeak posts it at:   http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc6_1420632668

 I am pissed.  I saw this video earlier, off of a French feed, and it clearly showed the two barbarians EXECUTING the wounded policeman.  Funker530 and CNN, along with the British media outlets, have blurred out the action or completely deleted it, in their reporting.  There is no such PC reporting in the US when it comes to police activity against criminals, but when barbarians commit an atrocity like this, it is screened out.  Do our MSM now fear retribution from these barbarians if they expose them as the violent barbarians that they are?  SAD commentary on our media in turning a blind eye on a real threat to our society.


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## krimynal (7 Jan 2015)

http://tvanouvelles.ca/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2015/01/20150107-114205.html



yes it is a french site , but here is the video you were pissed of not being able to see


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## jollyjacktar (7 Jan 2015)

A post I read from another site that seems fitting.



> This article from Christopher Hitchens is very appropriate about now. I could only imagine what Hitchens would say were he alive today.
> 
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2006/02/cartoon_debate.html


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## The Bread Guy (7 Jan 2015)

Well, THAT didn't take long ....


> The gunmen who stormed the offices of the newspaper Charlie Hebdo in Paris “displayed a degree of skill and calmness that comes only from advanced military training,” The Telegraph reports.
> 
> The observation begs the question: were the gunmen part of a military organization such as ISIS or sent by a government with a professionally trained military? ....


Rock on, conspiracy nutbars theorists .... :Tin-Foil-Hat:


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## jollyjacktar (7 Jan 2015)

Damn, I was  hoping by your "that didn't take long "  it was that the 2nd Directorate types had already located the turds and flushed them.


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## SoldierInAYear (7 Jan 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> A very graphic video is on the french sites showing them executing one of the police officers.



The video is absolutely horrible, hard to watch. I hope they find these bastards.


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## krimynal (7 Jan 2015)

from a french news site here in Canada , they are saying that the women who let them in the building said they we're speaking fluent french , and they we're claiming to be there in the name of Al Quaida.


source : http://tvanouvelles.ca/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2015/01/20150107-142319.html

I don't want to take this for a definitive answer but , this is the new report I've read there


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## The Bread Guy (7 Jan 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Damn, I was  hoping by your "that didn't take long "  it was that the 2nd Directorate types had already located the turds and flushed them.


Not yet, but they appear to be getting closer (original in French - translation from Google Translate) ....


> *Attack Charlie Hebdo, the three suspects were identified*
> 
> ATTACK - According to our information, the three wanted by the police after the attack occurred Wednesday morning in the offices of Charlie Hebdo were identified.
> 
> ...


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## cryco (7 Jan 2015)

that last part is poorly translated.
It should say something like: Cherif K was known by police. He was convicted to 3 years in jail for being part of a group that would send Jihadists to Iraq between 2003-2005. He was stopped himself as he was about to leave for Iraq (back in 2005). He explained as the time drew nearer to leaving, he wanted to back out but couldn't/didn't, as he would have been be seen as a loser/soft.


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## ShadyBrah (7 Jan 2015)

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-magazine-attack/paris-attack-suspect-dead-two-custody-u-s-officials-say-n281761

Faster than I expected... 1 suspect reported killed, 2 in custody. 

EDIT: Hopefully this is true. NBC is the only one reporting it so far.


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## GK .Dundas (7 Jan 2015)

Tonight we are all Charlie as it were. 
  My condolences  to the families of those murdered .


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## dapaterson (7 Jan 2015)

“I am not afraid of retaliation. I have no kids, no wife, no car, no credit. It perhaps sounds a bit pompous, but I prefer to die standing than living on my knees,” – Stephane Charbonnier, the publishing director of Charlie Hebdo.


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## George Wallace (7 Jan 2015)

This explains a lot, as to how two policemen were EXECUTED in Paris.

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

http://www.tpnn.com/2015/01/07/french-police-offers-forced-to-retreat-from-gunmen-because-they-were-unarmed/



> French Police Offers Forced to RETREAT from Gunmen Because they Were UNARMED
> January 7, 2015 By Greg Campbell
> 
> Though the left loves to focus on the possible destruction that can be wrought by firearms, what is missing from their carefully-crafted narrative is the simple fact that each and every day, guns save lives.
> ...


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## OldSolduer (7 Jan 2015)

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> Tonight we are all Charlie as it were.
> My condolences  to the families of those murdered .



Moi aussi, monsieur. Je suis Charlie.


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## krimynal (7 Jan 2015)

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/07/europe/france-satire-magazine-gunfire/index.html


one of the three suspects surrendered to the police force !!!!

still looking for the 2 brothers as we speak !!!


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## OldSolduer (8 Jan 2015)

the disturbing part is that we have no strategy on how to deal with radicals....be they Islamic or any other kind.
Our "politically correct" society doesn't want to hear the truth....that some Muslims - and others - are extremely dangerous and need to be dealt with.


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## The Bread Guy (8 Jan 2015)

krimynal said:
			
		

> one of the three suspects surrendered to the police force !!!!
> 
> still looking for the 2 brothers as we speak !!!


Reportedly spotted in northern France ....


> Two armed suspects in the Paris shooting in which twelve people were killed on Wednesday have been located in northern France, AFP quoted sources as saying on Thursday.
> 
> According to a report in French daily Le Figaro, the suspects were recognized by the manager of a gas station near Villers-Cotterêt ....



Meanwhile, ANOTHER cop killed ....


> A policewoman was killed in a shootout in southern Paris on Thursday, triggering searches in the area as the manhunt widened for two brothers suspected of killing 12 people at a satirical magazine in an apparent Islamist militant strike.
> 
> Police sources could not immediately confirm a link with the killings at Charlie Hebdo weekly newspaper which marked the worst attack on French soil for decades and which national leaders and allied states described as an assault on democracy.
> 
> ...


Condolences to the families, colleagues and friends ....


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## The Bread Guy (8 Jan 2015)

And a bit more detail on the bro's via the _New York Times_:


> When Chérif Kouachi first came to the attention of the French authorities as a possible terrorist a decade ago, he was in his early 20s and, according to testimony during a 2008 Paris trial, had dreamed of attacking Jewish targets in France. Under the influence of a radical Paris preacher, however, he decided that fighting American troops in Iraq presented a better outlet for his commitment to jihad.
> 
> On Wednesday, Mr. Kouachi, according to investigators, returned to his original plan of waging holy war in France. Along with his older brother Said and a third French Muslim of North African descent, he was named as one of three who were involved in an assault on a satirical newspaper in Paris that left at least 12 people dead.
> 
> ...


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## Colin Parkinson (8 Jan 2015)

Funny how the US mistreatment at Abu Ghraib prison apparently is worthy of retaliation, but the decades of torture and murder there by Saddam is given a pass.


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## CougarKing (8 Jan 2015)

And out of nowhere, a US politician weighs in...

And people wonder why he never gained momentum in his own presidential bid...  :



> *Howard Dean: Paris attackers not ‘Muslim terrorists’*
> 
> Published January 08, 2015
> 
> ...



Source: Fox News


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## jollyjacktar (8 Jan 2015)

If they survive arrest and see a conviction at trial it's time for France to bring back the Guillotine or reactivate Devil's Island.


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## cryco (8 Jan 2015)

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> And out of nowhere, a US politician weighs in...
> 
> And people wonder why he never gained momentum in his own presidential bid...  :
> 
> Source: Fox News



I don't think he's in left field. We do know that one of them was convicted for sending men to Iraq for jihadi training. We can assume that his actions were religiously motivated, but it is still an assumption, at this point in time (probably a correct one).
They are mass murderers, and calling them "muslim" terrorists, the same muslim as say, my colleagues one and two cubes away would be kind of ridiculous. But that becomes semantics at that point I guess.


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## Kat Stevens (8 Jan 2015)

cryco said:
			
		

> I don't think he's in left field. We do know that one of them was convicted for sending men to Iraq for jihadi training. We can assume that his actions were religiously motivated, but it is still an assumption, at this point in time (probably a correct one).
> They are mass murderers, and calling them "muslim" terrorists, the same muslim as say, my colleagues one and two cubes away would be kind of ridiculous. But that becomes semantics at that point I guess.



Why?  Nobody hesitates to call Westboro Baptist Church a bunch of Christian extremist nutjobs, because that's what they are.


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## cryco (8 Jan 2015)

So let them. Doesn't mean they're right.  The Westboro baptist church  are simply whack jobs that think they're christian. I certainly don't consider them Christian. They can call themselves that, I can't stop that, but they're hate mongers.


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## The Bread Guy (8 Jan 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Why?  Nobody hesitates to call Westboro Baptist Church a bunch of Christian extremist nutjobs, because that's what they are.


But how many folks complain about Christians not condemning the Westboro folks more?  And how many say Christianity as a religion should be condemned because of the acts of the Westboro-ites?

Meanwhile, the "they're not _just_ killing infidels" meme continues ....


> It was a Muslim policeman from a local police station who was “slaughtered like a dog” after heroically attempting to stop two heavily armed killers from fleeing the offices of Charlie Hebdo following their brutal massacre.
> 
> Tributes to police officer Ahmed Merabet poured in on Thursday after images of his murder at point blank range by a Kalashnikov-wielding masked terrorist circulated around the world.
> 
> ...


#IAmAhmedMerabet


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## Kat Stevens (8 Jan 2015)

I don't see the disconnect here.  If I went into any place in the world and shot it up, singing "Bringing in the Sheaves" while cheerfully butchering innocents, there would be no hesitation to call me a radical Christian terrorist.  The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, given, but it sure as hell seems that the vast majority of terrorists are Muslims. Or are we afraid of being offensive (I despise that f***ing word)?  A group of Muslims commit a terror act.  They are, by definition, "Muslim terrorists", no?


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## The Bread Guy (8 Jan 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> A group of Muslims commit a terror act.  They are, by definition, "Muslim terrorists", no?


Yes.  I should have been clearer that I was being the devil's advocate, showing how some folk treat pretty bad behaviour by small groups of people attributed to an identifiable religion - sorry for any misunderstanding.


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## Remius (8 Jan 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I don't see the disconnect here.  If I went into any place in the world and shot it up, singing "Bringing in the Sheaves" while cheerfully butchering innocents, there would be no hesitation to call me a radical Christian terrorist.  The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists, given, but it sure as hell seems that the vast majority of terrorists are Muslims. Or are we afraid of being offensive (I despise that f***ing word)?  A group of Muslims commit a terror act.  They are, by definition, "Muslim terrorists", no?



I'm not so sure.  Provided here for some persepective and info is a list of Christian terrorist groups and such.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

When abortion clinics were targetted and when doctors performing abortion were being assasinated I don't recall too much talk about christian terrorists.  Anti-abortion terrorists sure but rarely ever christian terrorists.  Same with the Klan.  While various groups follow the same ideology we call them right wing extremists or neo nazis despite them all being predominatly christian.  If we follow your definition then a group of Christians commiting a terror act by definition is a "Christian terrorist" but we rarely use that term.  You'll notice what term the PM is using to describe these punks.  "Jihadist Terrorists" not "Muslim terrorists"

Anyways sorry for the derail.


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## cryco (8 Jan 2015)

yes, the same way that a group of cyclists commit a terror act, they are cyclist terrorists. I know what you're saying and I have no problems saying that most terrorists stem from the muslim faith, but when they commit these acts in the name of islam, they become extremist criminals, ie mass murderers, not muslim terrorists in my eyes.
Just like the westboro baptists, the moment they bash gays, cross the line from Christianity into racism.

Although, I must add, i have seen some videos and read enough stories to suggest that Islam is very prone to intolerant interpretation which is more widespread than I care for.


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## Remius (8 Jan 2015)

cryco said:
			
		

> yes, the same way that a group of cyclists commit a terror act, they are cyclist terrorists. I know what you're saying and I have no problems saying that most terrorists stem from the muslim faith, but when they commit these acts in the name of islam, they become extremist criminals, ie mass murderers, not muslim terrorists in my eyes.
> Just like the westboro baptists, the moment they bash gays, cross the line from Christianity into racism.
> 
> Although, I must add, i have seen some videos and read enough stories to suggest that Islam is very prone to intolerant interpretation which is more widespread than I care for.



I suppose it depends on what areas of the world we are talking about.  Do most terrorists stem from the muslim faith?  I'm willing to bet a dollar to a donut that most terrorists in Europe at any rate, are seperatists of all sorts and likely account for the lion's share of terrorist attacks in Europe.  I'd also bet that most terrorists in the US aren't muslim either. 

A counter point to this is deciding how to describe these guys.  An argument can be made that these are not just terrorists that happen to be muslim.  They are Muslims that have taken up terrorism to further their cause because they are in fact muslim and the people they attack don't subscribe to their belief. 

To me, and this has nothing to do with trying to be PC or what not, Jihadist terrorists or radical jihadists is more suitable and accurate.  The muslim world is huge and diverse with various sects and off shoots just like christianity, with moderates and extremists. 

Neo Nazis are called extactly that and rarely called christian terrorists.  I think the same logic applies to radical Jihadies.


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## Colin Parkinson (8 Jan 2015)

I suspect they self-identify as Muslims, so good enough for me, they commit a terrorist Act, therefore they are Muslim Terrorist


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## Kat Stevens (8 Jan 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I suspect they self-identify as Muslims, so good enough for me, they commit a terrorist Act, therefore they are Muslim Terrorist



There ya go.  These guys do what they do in the name of whatever twisted version of Allah they subscribe to.  Westboro call themselves Baptists, the Klan call themselves Christian Knights of whatdafuk, who am I to argue with them?


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## Marchog (8 Jan 2015)

> Neo Nazis are called extactly that and rarely called christian terrorists.



Neo-Nazis are rarely Christians. They are more inclined towards neo-pagan symbology, and their ideology stems from ferociously anti Judeo-Christian Nietzschean moral philosophy. 

I am yet again disappointed by diversionary attempts to saddle Christianity with terrorism and/or Nazism (which _at best_ would be a _tu quoque_), the likes of which seem to pop up in every Internet discussion on Islamic extremism. 

Also, too soon by the Duffle Blog? http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/01/tea-party-attack-charlie-hebdo/


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## Kat Stevens (8 Jan 2015)

British Dictionary definitions for jihad
jihad
/dʒɪˈhæd/
noun 
1.
(Islam) a holy war against infidels undertaken by Muslims in defence of the Islamic faith
2.
(Islam) the personal struggle of the individual believer against evil and persecution

Therefore, a "jihadist" is engaging in jihad, as described above.  Ipso facto and QED, a jihadist is acting in defence of islam, and therefore acting in the name of Islam.


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## larry Strong (8 Jan 2015)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Neo Nazis are called extactly that and rarely called christian terrorists.



Neo Nazi's - and for the record not a fan of them - don't go around doing this:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/isis-behead-street-magician-entertaining-4929838


Cheers
Larry


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## Remius (8 Jan 2015)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Neo Nazi's - and for the record not a fan of them - don't go around doing this:
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/isis-behead-street-magician-entertaining-4929838
> 
> ...



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1098035/Filmed-beheadings-Russian-neo-Nazis-borrowing-tactics-al-Qaeda.html

Apparently some have...


At any rate I didn't mean to derail.  Just that it seems that other terrorist groups and organisations seem to be referred to by name or title but rarely by their affiliate religion or race in many cases.  

The government and the pm aren't using the term Muslim terrorists.  So it isn't surprising that some people might be exercising a certain degree of sensitivity to the Muslim community.


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## George Wallace (8 Jan 2015)

Crantor said:
			
		

> The government and the pm aren't using the term Muslim terrorists.  So it isn't surprising that some people might be exercising a certain degree of sensitivity to the Muslim community.



At the same time the Muslim communities in most Western nations are just as outspoken against this act as all other groups.  It was a Muslim policeman who was EXECUTED in that video.  ISIL does not discriminate as to whom they murder--often a Muslim Terrorist Group killing Muslims.  (Does that fit into your opinion of what a Muslim Terrorist is?)


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## Remius (8 Jan 2015)

I think the problem is that Islam more than most other religions tends to get condemned as whole for these kind of attacks.  It's no wonder that many in the muslim community would be outspoken against this act.  

How many times have we seen revenge attacks against people that have nothing to do with these kind of things other than being of the same denomination.


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## George Wallace (8 Jan 2015)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I think the problem is that Islam more than most other religions tends to get condemned as whole for these kind of attacks.



No.  It is timing.  If this were in the days of the Spanish Inquisition we would be condemning the Catholic Church.  

Thing to remember is that there are other religious and cultural terrorist groups, mostly in India, that are not in the News as they are not on such a large scale.  The Tamils just recently were the "flavour of the month", and are now gone.


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## Brad Sallows (8 Jan 2015)

Consider the distinction between "quality" and "quantity".

People claiming to be "Christians" and "Muslims" employ terrorism in the name of Christianity or Islam ("quality").  This is usually where the moral relativism/equivalence fans end their analysis.  (eg. "The US committed war crimes during WWII; therefore, Nazis.")

Wikipedia thinks there are about 2.2B Christians and 1.8B Muslims.  Divide the number of deaths caused by terrorists claiming to act in the name of the faction for purposes supporting the faction into the respective populations ("quantity") and call the results "A" and "B".  Either a lot of Christian terrorism has gone unreported in the past couple of decades, or A << B.

BTW, the "Islam has never really been tried" line of argument (aka "those people aren't really Muslims" [or "no true Scotsman"]) isn't particularly convincing.


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## Humphrey Bogart (8 Jan 2015)

Why are we so afraid of these idiots anyways?  If anything they should be afraid of us!  The West could wipe these ants off the face of the planet if we really wanted to.  Jihadists should be scared of us, not the other way around.  Piss us off enough and rest assured, no quarter will be given.

This being said, this isn't about religion, it's about power.  Jihadists only use religion as a front for their quest for absolute power.  Let's not get into a pointless discussion on Islam vs Christianity.  It's ridiculous and does nothing to help the situation.


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## daftandbarmy (8 Jan 2015)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Why are we so afraid of these idiots anyways?  If anything they should be afraid of us!  The West could wipe these ants off the face of the planet if we really wanted to.  Jihadists should be scared of us, not the other way around.  Piss us off enough and rest assured, no quarter will be given.
> 
> This being said, this isn't about religion, it's about power.  Jihadists only use religion as a front for their quest for absolute power.  Let's not get into a pointless discussion on Islam vs Christianity.  It's ridiculous and does nothing to help the situation.




Democratic nations must try to find ways to starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend.

 Margaret Thatcher 

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/margaretth162424.html#qI6sVTfptZWC8F5V.99


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## midget-boyd91 (9 Jan 2015)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> This being said, this isn't about religion, it's about power.  Jihadists only use religion as a front for their quest for absolute power.  Let's not get into a pointless discussion on Islam vs Christianity.  It's ridiculous and does nothing to help the situation.



I have to disagree on this one..... to a certain extent. I will agree that a discussion about Islam vs Christianity is ridiculous and pointless. However I believe that only the last word "Christianity" is wrong in that statement. 
-Islam vs Christianity has been beaten and beaten to a bloody pulp by absolutely everybody.
-Islam vs EVERYONE ELSE however seems more appropriate. (In my opinion)

They know very well the extent of their powers. They've been unable to defeat 5 million Jews on a plot of land as small as Cape Breton Island, so I'd say it's fair to say they are aware that they *KNOW* they will be unable to lay claim to any measurable amount of power over the *entire western world*. The majority of the foreign fighters who have flown from Canada, the U.S, The U.K, France etc.. have done so because they *believe* in what they are fighting for. And that is an Islamic State. 

A man working two jobs, struggling to support his wife and five kids in London or Edmonton does not leave his family behind to fight in Syria for the sake of power... he does so because he believes so strongly that that Islamic State is the will of (his) God.


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## Humphrey Bogart (9 Jan 2015)

uncle-midget-Oddball said:
			
		

> I have to disagree on this one..... to a certain extent. I will agree that a discussion about Islam vs Christianity is ridiculous and pointless. However I believe that only the last word "Christianity" is wrong in that statement.
> -Islam vs Christianity has been beaten and beaten to a bloody pulp by absolutely everybody.
> -Islam vs EVERYONE ELSE however seems more appropriate. (In my opinion)
> 
> ...



You almost made sense until your last snippet where you totally contradicted yourself. A man who can't support himself or his family leaves to fight in a foreign war.... Hmmm sounds like a lust for power to me.  He is a dirtbag and thinks the only way he is going to make it big is if he picks up a Kalashnikov and goes to fight the good fight.  send in the armoured division and let him meet his maker I say.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Jan 2015)

Nice theory Drew, but we already know we in the West don't have the stomach to root these assholes out and burn them root and branch.  To fight these guys properly we need to be willing to get down in the mud and get even dirtier than they are, and there ain't much mud up here on the moral high ground.


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## OldSolduer (9 Jan 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Nice theory Drew, but we already know we in the West don't have the stomach to root these assholes out and burn them root and branch.  To fight these guys properly we need to be willing to get down in the mud and get even dirtier than they are, and there ain't much mud up here on the moral high ground.



Has anyone here read "The Devil's Guard"?


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Jan 2015)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Why are we so afraid of these idiots anyways?  If anything they should be afraid of us!  The West could wipe these ants off the face of the planet if we really wanted to.  Jihadists should be scared of us, not the other way around.  Piss us off enough and rest assured, no quarter will be given.
> 
> This being said, this isn't about religion, it's about power.  Jihadists only use religion as a front for their quest for absolute power.  Let's not get into a pointless discussion on Islam vs Christianity.  It's ridiculous and does nothing to help the situation.



Here, here. Why are we even debating this. For all indications, the shooters are Muslim. They slaughtered innocent people. Quit trying to label them. They are Muslim murderers overdue for a dirt nap. Who cares if they're terrorists or just disenfranchised. Hunt them down and kill them on the spot. Otherwise, they'll use their trial to espouse their views and likely cause more murders by their cohorts who would be trying to force their release.


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## Brasidas (9 Jan 2015)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Has anyone here read "The Devil's Guard"?



I think the Waffen-SS are well past their best before date.

You're proposing an effectively expendable unit of western-equipped and -controlled forces whose welfare folks wouldn't give a damn about?


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Jan 2015)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> I think the Waffen-SS are well past their best before date.
> 
> You're proposing an effectively expendable unit of western-equipped and -controlled forces whose welfare folks wouldn't give a damn about?



Are you invoking Godwins law? ;D


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## Edward Campbell (9 Jan 2015)

Drew is right. This is like a cancer. 99.99% of Muslims are "healthy," 0.01% are diseased. We need to totally _eradicate_ the diseased bits - 100%. That includes, i_n my opinion_, about 7,500 members of the 7,000 strong Saudi Royal Family.

We know what the problem is ... it's time to stop pussyfooting around just because some gigantic New York PR firms tell us that Saudi Arabia is our friend; it isn't; it's our bitter bloody enemy and the sooner we crush it the better.

(I fully understand the implications: social, economic, diplomatic and _strategic_ of what I'm saying.)


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Jan 2015)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> This is like a cancer. 99.99% of Muslims are "healthy," 0.01% are diseased. We need to totally _eradicate_ the diseased bits - 100%. That includes, i_n my opinion_, about 7,500 members of the 7,000 strong Saudi Royal Family.


On target, but ....



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> (I fully understand the implications: social, economic, diplomatic and _strategic_ of what I'm saying.)


.... most Western democracies are unable to face the consequences of these implications (including "how much do you want to pay for gas at the pump?").


----------



## blacktriangle (9 Jan 2015)

Less than 100 years ago, Saudi Arabia was basically in the stone age. I would not be opposed to spending more at the pumps to send them back.


----------



## cryco (9 Jan 2015)

ok, so we can call them muslim terrorists, because they consider themselves muslim, but we do so knowing they are a tiny fraction of the world's muslim population (the muslims that have such extreme views).
We can also call them murderers, thugs, jihadists and we all mean the same thing. They are bad people that need to die.
Now I hear they are holed up in a print shop in a village and have a hostage. They also want to become martyrs. Die mofos. Die.


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Jan 2015)

Now there's another attack.  Shared under the fair dealing provisions of the copyright act.  Full story at link below.



> Charlie Hebdo hunt: Double hostage crisis in France
> 
> Armed police flooded the Porte de Vincennes area of eastern Paris after the man reportedly opened fire and took up to five people prisoner.  He is said to be the gunman who killed a policewoman in the city on Thursday.
> 
> ...


----------



## tomahawk6 (9 Jan 2015)

French TV live:

http://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/live-video/


----------



## krimynal (9 Jan 2015)

One of the brothers and the shooter from the Thursday shooting are reported to know eachother.  They were seen together back in 2010 

source : http://tvanouvelles.ca/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2015/01/20150109-073308.html

Original post : Connaissance d'un frère Kouachi

Amedy Coulibaly, objet d'un appel à témoins pour la fusillade jeudi de Montrouge, dans laquelle une policière a été tuée, et qui est soupçonné d'être l'auteur de la prise d'otages de la supérette, a été repéré en 2010 avec Chérif Kouachi, selon cette source.

Google translate : Knowledge of a brother Kouachi

Amedy Coulibaly, appealed for witnesses to the shooting Thursday in Montrouge, in which police was killed and who is suspected of being the author of the hostage-taking in the supermarket, was spotted in 2010 with Cherif Kouachi , the source said .


----------



## cryco (9 Jan 2015)

The translation messed up the beginning (it's a tough translation). It should say

Amedy Coulibaly, who is the focus of an appeal for witnesses to the shooting Thursday in Montrouge, in which police was killed and who is suspected of being the author of the hostage-taking in the supermarket, was spotted in 2010 with Cherif Kouachi , the source said .


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Jan 2015)

99% of the Muslims are not "healthy" Most are like abused spouses and require being "re-educated" They grow up hearing that Jews are pigs, Christians are beneath them and vassals. Woman are nothing but property. My wife grew up with this education, even in a moderate Islamic society, she said to be me last night that it's taken 15 years living in Canada to "Deprogram" herself and she is steaming mad at these bastards and the fact that a Saudi funded mosque has opened up near us, because that is where the plague starts


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (9 Jan 2015)

cryco said:
			
		

> The translation messed up the beginning (it's a tough translation). It should say
> 
> Amedy Coulibaly, who is the focus of an appeal for witnesses to the shooting Thursday in Montrouge, in which police was killed and who is suspected of being the author of the hostage-taking in the supermarket, was spotted in 2010 with Cherif Kouachi , the source said .



Translation, especially when dealing with more technical or trade specific vocabulary, is a difficult art. To render the French version into a corresponding translation in English of the same meaning, would go like this:

"Amedy Coulilaby, sought as an important witness in the matter of Thursday's shooting in Montrouge, in which a police officer was killed and …"


----------



## krimynal (9 Jan 2015)

yeah sorry I really only wanted to link the original post with a quick translation , should have double checked it prior to posting it ! sorry about that !


----------



## Jed (9 Jan 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> 99% of the Muslims are not "healthy" Most are like abused spouses and require being "re-educated" They grow up hearing that Jews are pigs, Christians are beneath them and vassals. Woman are nothing but property. My wife grew up with this education, even in a moderate Islamic society, she said to be me last night that it's taken 15 years living in Canada to "Deprogram" herself and she is steaming mad at these bastards and the fact that a Saudi funded mosque has opened up near us, because that is where the plague starts



Exactly, I have spent the last !4 years developing my thinking and understanding of the variants of the  Muslim faith and why it seems to stand out from all the other major religions.(At least in its propensity to propagate extreme terrorists bent on murder and mayhem)

Basically, one of the core faith tenants, at least as it exists today, is the total lack of acceptance of any other belief and the necessity of all human beings to submit to Allah, and to force Mohamed's will on all human beings.

I don't believe this is  one of the main driving force in other major religions such as Christianity or Judaism.


----------



## Old Sweat (9 Jan 2015)

Seeing live TV of what appears to be an assault on the "two brothers" in the print shop.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (9 Jan 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> 99% of the Muslims are not "healthy" Most are like abused spouses and require being "re-educated" They grow up hearing that Jews are pigs, Christians are beneath them and vassals. Woman are nothing but property. My wife grew up with this education, even in a moderate Islamic society, she said to be me last night that it's taken 15 years living in Canada to "Deprogram" herself and she is steaming mad at these bastards and the fact that a Saudi funded mosque has opened up near us, because that is where the plague starts



She is quite right. Those Saudi financed Mosque are not the "Little Mosque on the Prairie". BTW on the "healthy" muslims issue, Christopher Hitchens has constantly argued that the main problem with Islamists is not that they seek virgins in the hereafter, but that they ARE virgins in the here and now, i.e.: they have never been allowed to develop any social skills in dealing with people, especially women, outside of the strict application of scriptures.

A lot of the fanatical ones constantly claim that there should be a limit on the freedom of expression where religion is concerned. What about turning the tables on them? Why shouldn't there be limits put on freedom of religion when my Charter protected right to "Life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof.." (Art 7. of the Canadian Charter? I suggest that making it illegal for ANY religious organization to receive funding from outside of Canada would be a good starting point and a reasonable limit on freedom of religion.


----------



## Jed (9 Jan 2015)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> She is quite right. Those Saudi financed Mosque are not the "Little Mosque on the Prairie". BTW on the "healthy" muslims issue, Christopher Hitchens has constantly argued that the main problem with Islamists is not that they seek virgins in the hereafter, but that they ARE virgins in the here and now, i.e.: they have never been allowed to develop any social skills in dealing with people, especially women, outside of the strict application of scriptures.
> 
> A lot of the fanatical ones constantly claim that there should be a limit on the freedom of expression where religion is concerned. What about turning the tables on them? Why shouldn't there be limits put on freedom of religion when my Charter protected right to "Life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof.." (Art 7. of the Canadian Charter? I suggest that making it illegal for ANY religious organization to receive funding from outside of Canada would be a good starting point and a reasonable limit on freedom of religion.



Interesting proposal. I don't think it addresses the core issue, though. As ERC discussed earlier, society has to root out the cancer, including those in the Saudi Arabia and all that implies. Not a pretty option.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (9 Jan 2015)

Jed said:
			
		

> I don't believe this is  one of the main driving force in other major religions such as Christianity or Judaism.



At least not anymore. In the past … well, just ask the South American natives, amongst others.


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Jan 2015)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I suggest that making it illegal for ANY religious organization to receive funding from outside of Canada would be a good starting point and a reasonable limit on freedom of religion.


I don't know what if any financial support the Vatican supplies to the faithful here in Canada.  They might object, hell, I expect that there would be some screams from many places.  Personally, I like the idea myself.

I'd like to see the Saud brand of Mosque banned from Canada to being with, that might be a more effective method or making sure hate preachers, like A. Choudrey from the UK, stomped on with extreme prejudice by all legal means possible and expelled from our shores.


----------



## ModlrMike (9 Jan 2015)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> At least not anymore. In the past … well, just ask the South American natives, amongst others.



Conquest, cash, and conversion in that order. Somewhat different.

I agree with Jed. There is no singular point in Christian or Jewish scripture that compels "belief or death". That being said, there's sure to be fanatics who subscribe to that position, we just don't see them going around shooting people.


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Jan 2015)

Reports on various MSM outlets like BBC, CBC etc that the police are storming both terrorist locations right now.  Gunshots and explosions are being heard.


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Jan 2015)

Word of police assault on the printing plant alleged to be where "The Two Bro's" ....


> French anti-terrorist police stormed a small printing works in northern France where the two chief suspects in Wednesday's attack on a Paris newspaper had taken hostages, explosions and gunfire ringing out around the building.
> 
> The building in the small town of Dammartin-en-Goele, set in marsh and woodland, had been under siege since the gunmen abandoned a high-speed car chase and took refuge there early on Friday. A helicopter hovered overhead.
> 
> ...


.... with initial word of hostages being freed in the Jewish store hostage taking.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (9 Jan 2015)

Bbc is reporting that the two brothers are dead.


Link: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30752239


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Jan 2015)

Awesome news.  Hope the two in the deli meet the same fate.


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Jan 2015)

CBC is providing live updates and photos from various sources on their news site.  Photos from the Deli are coming through.


----------



## Jarnhamar (9 Jan 2015)

Colin P said:
			
		

> 99% of the Muslims are not "healthy" Most are like abused spouses and require being "re-educated" They grow up hearing that Jews are pigs, Christians are beneath them and vassals. Woman are nothing but property. My wife grew up with this education, even in a moderate Islamic society, she said to be me last night that it's taken 15 years living in Canada to "Deprogram" herself and she is steaming mad at these bastards and the fact that a Saudi funded mosque has opened up near us, because that is where the plague starts



I find myself agreeing with you. The problem is the religion of Islam. It's not a few bad apples spoiling it for the rest.


----------



## tomahawk6 (9 Jan 2015)

Kudos to the French security services for ending this threat to the public.


----------



## Remius (9 Jan 2015)

Looks like 4 dead at the other scene.  Including the gunman.

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/other/newsalert-police-officials-at-least-4-dead-including-gunman-in-paris-kosher-grocery-hostage-crisis/ar-AA7WxRf


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Jan 2015)

Latest from AP:


> Brothers linked to the Charlie Hebdo attack, and another gunman with ties to the two, were killed following separate hostage-takings in Paris, which also left at least three hostages dead, police say.
> 
> Police confirmed the death of the two brothers, who had been cornered and holding at least one hostage in a printing house northeast of Paris, in the small industrial town of Dammartin-en-Goele. A hostage was freed safely.
> 
> ...


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Jan 2015)

This looks promising.  Anonymous says it will avenge Charlie Hebdo attacks by shutting down jihadist websites.

The Telegraph full story link



> Hacker group Anonymous have released a video and a statement via Twitter condemning theattacks on Charlie Hebdo, in which 12 people, including eight journalists, were murdered.
> 
> The video description says that it is "a message for al-Qaeda, the Islamic State and other terrorists", and was uploaded to the group's Belgian account.
> 
> ...


----------



## George Wallace (9 Jan 2015)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> This looks promising.  Anonymous says it will avenge Charlie Hebdo attacks by shutting down jihadist websites.
> 
> The Telegraph full story link



OH MY GOD!......They are joining "The Establishment" in its "War on Terror".


----------



## Nfld Sapper (9 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> OH MY GOD!......They are joining "The Establishment" in its "War on Terror".




What is the world coming too..... ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy (9 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> jollyjacktar said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Man bites dog, indeed!


----------



## cryco (9 Jan 2015)

that's fantastic!


----------



## dapaterson (9 Jan 2015)

Famous French cartoonist Uderzo has come out of retirement to pen a tribute.  If you don't recognize his name, you may recognize his work.


----------



## 57Chevy (9 Jan 2015)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Kudos to the French security services for ending this threat to the public.



....quickly and efficiently.


----------



## OldSolduer (9 Jan 2015)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> I think the Waffen-SS are well past their best before date.
> 
> You're proposing an effectively expendable unit of western-equipped and -controlled forces whose welfare folks wouldn't give a damn about?



Nothing of the sort. I was referring to the tactics the SS et al employed.


----------



## jollyjacktar (9 Jan 2015)

Indeed, if the author was to be taken at face value, the Allemand Brigade of the FFL was highly effective against the insurgents when set against the other French combat units in Indo China.  That sort of fight fire with fire treatment is, I believe, the only really effective way to combat these barbarians.  Alexander or Caesar would also concur I expect.


----------



## tomahawk6 (9 Jan 2015)

How brutal do you want to get ? I would rather tighten immigration to prevent new muslim immigration.Deport those that cant abide by the laws of the host country.I would favor deporting an entire family to gain leverage to insure good behavior.The death penalty must be an option for prosecutors in the most extreme cases.


----------



## Old Sweat (9 Jan 2015)

Gang, we are all really teed off, but let's sleep on it before we start tossing the rule of law and the values on our constitutions out the window.


----------



## George Wallace (9 Jan 2015)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> How brutal do you want to get ? I would rather tighten immigration to prevent new muslim immigration.Deport those that cant abide by the laws of the host country.I would favor deporting an entire family to gain leverage to insure good behavior.



That topic has been discussed on many forums here in Canada in reference a certain family.


----------



## tomahawk6 (9 Jan 2015)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Gang, we are all really teed off, but let's sleep on it before we start tossing the rule of law and the values on our constitutions out the window.



Canada is different from Europe where the immigrants are assimilated into society with jobs that pay well.France on the other hand lacks jobs and the immigrants have not assimilated.They live apart with their own rules.A big internal security headache that has been a long time coming.


----------



## Old Sweat (9 Jan 2015)

Agreed, that's why we should watch and then watch and shoot.

Much of the media was not making your observation today, but were pilling on.


----------



## George Wallace (10 Jan 2015)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Canada is different from Europe where the immigrants are assimilated into society with jobs that pay well.France on the other hand lacks jobs and the immigrants have not assimilated.They live apart with their own rules.A big internal security headache that has been a long time coming.



Germany was much the same with its "Guest Workers" from the 50's through to the 90's.  Since the "Wall" came down, German Laws have since changed giving these 'Guest Workers' some rights, as well as the large numbers of immigrants claiming 'German Lineages' from Russia and the former Warsaw Pact countries, the opportunities to own property and businesses.  That may have rectified some of their potential problems, but like many European countries, the ethnic ghettos are still a problem.   

France's problems stem back to the 50's as well, and terrorist acts, predominately by Algerians, have been common in France for as long.  This is probably the reason we have seen such a swift resolution to the latest events.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Jan 2015)

Jed said:
			
		

> Exactly, I have spent the last !4 years developing my thinking and understanding of the variants of the  Muslim faith and why it seems to stand out from all the other major religions.(At least in its propensity to propagate extreme terrorists bent on murder and mayhem)
> 
> Basically, one of the core faith tenants, at least as it exists today, is the total lack of acceptance of any other belief and the necessity of all human beings to submit to Allah, and to force Mohamed's will on all human beings.
> 
> I don't believe this is  one of the main driving force in other major religions such as Christianity or Judaism.



http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/churchillislam.asp


----------



## cryco (10 Jan 2015)

Who's the prophet now... he was bang on.


----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Jan 2015)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Has anyone here read "The Devil's Guard"?





			
				Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I was referring to the tactics the SS et al employed.





			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Indeed, if the author was to be taken at face value, the Allemand Brigade of the FFL was highly effective against the insurgents when set against the other French combat units in Indo China.


Before we give tooooo much credence to _"Devil's Guard"_, while a great read, there's controversy re: whether it's true or not - with many former Foreign Legionnaires saying it's fiction.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> France's problems stem back to the 50's as well, and terrorist acts, predominately by Algerians, have been common in France for as long.  This is probably the reason we have seen such a swift resolution to the latest events.


I'm guessing the French learned a lot of lessons (still applied) from the days of "Algerie Algerienne" vs "Algerie Francaise" (forgive my spelling).

And as much as we want to rant about "throw the rules out the window", this remains true ....


			
				Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Gang, we are all really teed off, but let's sleep on it before we start tossing the rule of law and the values on our constitutions out the window.


.... because once we "bend" the rules for one group, it becomes a whooooooooooooooole lot easier to bend them for others - for better and for worse.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (10 Jan 2015)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Nothing of the sort. I was referring to the tactics the SS et al employed.



The French Army military campaign in Algeria against the FLN is widely considered a military success.  almost all the FLN leadership were killed and terror attacks stopped; however, a substantial portion of the French public did not support the military's tactics and France ended up pulling out of Algeria anyways.


----------



## daftandbarmy (10 Jan 2015)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> The French Army military campaign in Algeria against the FLN is widely considered a military success.  almost all the FLN leadership were killed and terror attacks stopped; however, a substantial portion of the French public did not support the military's tactics and France ended up pulling out of Algeria anyways.



The campaign was successful, kind of like the US COIN campaign was successful in Vietnam on a military level. Politically, it contributed to ending the French colonial era in Africa forcefully, and forever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeMWdueGTZ4


----------



## Kat Stevens (10 Jan 2015)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Before we give tooooo much credence to _"Devil's Guard"_, while a great read, there's controversy re: whether it's true or not - with many former Foreign Legionnaires saying it's fiction.
> I'm guessing the French learned a lot of lessons (still applied) from the days of "Algerie Algerienne" vs "Algerie Francaise" (forgive my spelling).
> 
> And as much as we want to rant about "throw the rules out the window", this remains true ........ because once we "bend" the rules for one group, it becomes a whooooooooooooooole lot easier to bend them for others - for better and for worse.



And this is why, in 100 years, your great granddaughters will be cattle, and your great grandsons can be beheaded for complaining about the weather.  These guys are 100% committed to their cause at any cost, we are not, because it may make us look bad.  History is full of extinct nice guy societies.


----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Jan 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> And this is why, in 100 years, your great granddaughters will be cattle, and your great grandsons can be beheaded for complaining about the weather.  These guys are 100% committed to their cause at any cost, we are not, because it may make us look bad.


While I agree with the orange bit 100%, I'm not as pessimistic about the yellow bit coming to pass.  Call me optimistic, call me naive - just saying that if we throw the rules out the window when we _like_ the idea, it becomes easier to do it when we _don't_ like the idea.



			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> History is full of extinct nice guy societies.


And there's also some tough guy societies petering out on the books, too ....


			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> That sort of fight fire with fire treatment is, I believe, the only really effective way to combat these barbarians.  *Alexander or Caesar* would also concur I expect.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (10 Jan 2015)

Too many red necks and Christian extremists for us to become cattle


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Jan 2015)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> And there's also some tough guy societies petering out on the books, too ....


  
True enough.  But, all Empires eventually fall.  All of them, for one reason or another.  

My point was, however, at times you have to deal with a bully in language they understand in order to get them to quit.  If our fathers and grandfathers had pussy footed around 70 years ago because they were afraid of looking bad, I believe we would have had a much different end result and not one in our favour.  

Alexander and a Caesar such as Trajan, while brutal in their methods to our modern eyes, efficiently put down insurgencies they were facing as did the French in Algeria.  The only difference between the two epochs (ancient and modern) was the public outcry against the Algerian crisis.
It may come to pass that to deal  effectively with the rise of these new Fascists of the Islamic kind, we may have to find ourselves up against the wall on the verge of blinking out, before we take the gloves off and get into the mud ourselves.


----------



## a_majoor (10 Jan 2015)

While sending these animals to hell is quite proper and satisfying, *we* need to support more measures to isolate these animals from society and diminish their allure to others.

President el-Sisi's speech calling for an Islamic "Reformation" is a great step, and should be supported and rebroadcast everywhere. Correctly interpreting the Qrun is another (anyone who really reads and understands the Qrun knows that the fate of the terrorists is indeed to be sent straight to hell, since they attacked innocents), and there was a letter by Islamic scholars who completely demolished the ISIS declaration of a Caliphate by referring to Islamic jurisprudence as another example of what can be done.

My fear is looking at the extremist "Nativist" parties in Europe, who rate tapping into a growing faction of enraged voters who oppose multi culturalism, Islamic immigration and the EU in general. It won't take too many of these sorts of events in Europe to bring out mobs of thousands who will swoop down on neighbourhoods of Islamic immigrants to deliver their own form of vigilante "justice". That sort of thing will radicalize more Islamists, creating an escalating cycle of violence and counter violence across large swaths of Europe.


----------



## Kat Stevens (10 Jan 2015)

I'm not advocating wholesale rounding up of immigrants of any stripe.  Hell, I am one, difference being I thought Canada was such a great country I gave it the best 23 years of my life and a healthy back.  I don't know what the answer is, I'm just a dumb old ex thumperhead, not too smart but I can lift heavy things.  Every puzzle has a solution, hopefully we find it soon.


----------



## George Wallace (10 Jan 2015)

The answers lie in what this Muslim posts on FaceBook:  (Caution:  Emotional language used.)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=794512987269573


----------



## Kat Stevens (10 Jan 2015)

He'll be dead by next Friday.


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The answers lie in what this Muslim posts on FaceBook:  (Caution:  Emotional language used.)
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=794512987269573


Agreed, this is the *best solution* to the problem of the turds who believe as the terrorists did.  The man in this video and President el-Sisi are the type of men Islam needs to be like the spark in Tunisia that started the Arab Spring of 2011.  Sadly, I don't think that it will happen though.  



			
				Thucydides said:
			
		

> While sending these animals to hell is quite proper and satisfying, *we* need to support more measures to isolate these animals from society and diminish their allure to others.
> 
> President el-Sisi's speech calling for an Islamic "Reformation" is a great step, and should be supported and rebroadcast everywhere. Correctly interpreting the Qrun is another (anyone who really reads and understands the Qrun knows that the fate of the terrorists is indeed to be sent straight to hell, since they attacked innocents), and there was a letter by Islamic scholars who completely demolished the ISIS declaration of a Caliphate by referring to Islamic jurisprudence as another example of what can be done.
> 
> My fear is looking at the extremist "Nativist" parties in Europe, who rate tapping into a growing faction of enraged voters who oppose multi culturalism, Islamic immigration and the EU in general. It won't take too many of these sorts of events in Europe to bring out mobs of thousands who will swoop down on neighbourhoods of Islamic immigrants to deliver their own form of vigilante "justice". That sort of thing will radicalize more Islamists, creating an escalating cycle of violence and counter violence across large swaths of Europe.



I couldn't agree more, but I share your fears of the "Nativist's" running amok across immigrant enclaves in the various cities of Europe as a more likely outcome.  A perpetual motion machine of action/reaction misery for all involved.


----------



## tomahawk6 (10 Jan 2015)

Employee hid customers from the Hyper Casher attackers.A true hero



http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/Societe/Lassana-le-heros-de-Vincennes-686818

Lassana, employed by the Hyper Casher where a hostage situation occurred Friday, had had the reflex to hide his customers from the armed terrorist. Hiding them had permitted the escape from Amedy Coulibaly.
 He introduces himself as being a "Mali Muslim," as was Amedy Coulibaly. Confronted by the heavily-armed terrorist in the kosher supermarket where he worked, Lassana acted only on reflex: Helping the hostages to find a safe place. The customers were stuffed down, via a trap door, in the basement. "When they got down on the fly," explained the employee of Hyper Casher to [a french TV station], "I opened the door to the freezer. There were man people who had come back [into the freezer] with me. I turned out the light, I turned off the freezer."

Among the frightened customers, a man found himself there with "a two-year old baby," said Lassana. He was actually a baby of three and a half years, who accompanied his father. "When I had turned off the freezer, I had put them inside, I closed the door, I said: "Remain calm, here, I will get you out." "When they were out, they congratulated me, they thanked me," recounted humbly this young man.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (10 Jan 2015)

Here is A vid of the assault. http://www.funker530.com/video-french-swat-eliminate-terror-threat/


----------



## tomahawk6 (10 Jan 2015)

Another video

http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/attaque-au-siege-de-charlie-hebdo/exclusif-france-2-les-images-du-face-a-face-entre-le-raid-et-amedy-coulibaly-lors-de-l-assaut-porte-de-vincennes_793119.html


----------



## Brad Sallows (10 Jan 2015)

>These guys are 100% committed to their cause at any cost, we are not, because it may make us look bad. 

I am optimistic.  Every social and political system has dynamic and non-linear feedbacks.  When pressure becomes unbearable, it will not be borne.  Domestically, some people will act independently if governments will not or can not: extremists who preach openly will be murdered and their facilities will be burnt.  Internationally, it is easy to reduce to poverty the nations from which much of the ill will flows.  People angry enough to fire bomb cities can become so again.


----------



## jollyjacktar (10 Jan 2015)

Are there any videos of the two brothers doing their Butch and Sundance impersonations?  Enjoyed the Funker530 feed, hope his widow gets to see it too.


----------



## tomahawk6 (10 Jan 2015)

Hayat Boumeddiene's whereabouts are unknown.Some reports are that she is in ISIS controlled Syria and she wasnt in France at the time of the attacks.If she was there she is at large either in France or other parts of Europe.


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## OldSolduer (10 Jan 2015)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Hayat Boumeddiene's whereabouts are unknown.Some reports are that she is in ISIS controlled Syria and she wasnt in France at the time of the attacks.If she was there she is at large either in France or other parts of Europe.



If she was involved there are others involved who are harboring her.


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## George Wallace (10 Jan 2015)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Another video
> 
> http://www.francetvinfo.fr/faits-divers/attaque-au-siege-de-charlie-hebdo/exclusif-france-2-les-images-du-face-a-face-entre-le-raid-et-amedy-coulibaly-lors-de-l-assaut-porte-de-vincennes_793119.html



Looking at the videos on this link, I notice that they did not rescue and take all the hostages to one location to be questioned, but let at least two women, perhaps another woman and man, to flee away, from the police charging into the market, in the opposite direction the majority of hostages were being taken.  Two women turned left after exiting the market and ran along the wall and down the street.  It looked like a woman and a man exited and ran through the gas station in the video.


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## George Wallace (11 Jan 2015)

Breaking news:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Police Chief In Charge of Paris Attacks Commits Suicide



Could be a hoax.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Jan 2015)

Doesn't seem like it although some feel it was the Mossad


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## Haggis (12 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Breaking news:
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> Could be a hoax.



The UK's "Mirror" is reporting this as well.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Jan 2015)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The UK's "Mirror" is reporting this as well.


As is the  :Tin-Foil-Hat: media ....


> .... Did he commit suicide? Was he incited to commit suicide?
> 
> Or was he an “honest Cop” executed on orders of  France’s judicial police?
> 
> ...


 :


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## Colin Parkinson (12 Jan 2015)

It could be that his previous orders exposed his officers to deadly risks and knew that an inquiry would expose him.


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## jollyjacktar (13 Jan 2015)

Halifax Chronicle Herald Cartoon 13 Jan 2015

Another home run.


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## Kat Stevens (13 Jan 2015)

There's a video all over facebook and youtube now from anonymous apparently showing the cop on the ground didn't take a fatal head wound at all.  Now the whole thing was a CIA plot to keep France in line over sanctions on Russia... or some such thing.  My head hurts, people suck, I'm moving to the bush...

Edited to add link 
http://anonhq.com/uncensored-footage-paris-terror-attack-raises-serious-questions/


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## The Bread Guy (13 Jan 2015)

Well whaddya know?

_*"Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam tells fellow Muslims who do not appreciate the 'freedoms' of living in the West to 'pack your bags and f*** off' on live TV"*_


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## OldSolduer (13 Jan 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> There's a video all over facebook and youtube now from anonymous apparently showing the cop on the ground didn't take a fatal head wound at all.  Now the whole thing was a CIA plot to keep France in line over sanctions on Russia... or some such thing.  My head hurts, people suck, I'm moving to the bush...
> 
> Edited to add link
> http://anonhq.com/uncensored-footage-paris-terror-attack-raises-serious-questions/



Maybe I should invest in tin foil hat factories?  :facepalm:


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## George Wallace (13 Jan 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> There's a video all over facebook and youtube now from anonymous apparently showing the cop on the ground didn't take a fatal head wound at all.  Now the whole thing was a CIA plot to keep France in line over sanctions on Russia... or some such thing.  My head hurts, people suck, I'm moving to the bush...
> 
> Edited to add link
> http://anonhq.com/uncensored-footage-paris-terror-attack-raises-serious-questions/



Thought you already lived out in the bush?

How far out do you think you have to go to escape this stupidity?


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## OldSolduer (13 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> How far out do you think you have to go to escape this stupidity?



Mars should be far enough.


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## a_majoor (13 Jan 2015)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Well whaddya know?
> 
> _*"Moroccan-born mayor of Rotterdam tells fellow Muslims who do not appreciate the 'freedoms' of living in the West to 'pack your bags and f*** off' on live TV"*_



Thank you, your Worship


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## George Wallace (13 Jan 2015)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Mars should be far enough.



If it gets stupider, perhaps Jupiter.


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## OldSolduer (13 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> If it gets stupider, perhaps Jupiter.



That rhymes, sort of! ;D


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## Kat Stevens (13 Jan 2015)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Thought you already lived out in the bush?
> 
> How far out do you think you have to go to escape this stupidity?



I actually have neighbours well within rifle range, too damn close.  There's a whole lot more nothing north of me than there is stuff.  Plenty of room.


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## a_majoor (13 Jan 2015)

France has created a breeding ground for this sort of thing, and it will be a long and challenging job to dismantle both the physical place and the mental "space" it has created for the inhabitants. Integrating people into the new society takes a lot of work (read Samuel Huntington's book "Who are We?" to see the incredible effort that all elements of American society: schools, churches, business, popular culture and the government expended to create the "melting pot"), not sure if France has the time or resources to do so now. In any event, any place which is not subject to the same "Rule of Law" as every place else in a polity is a potential breeding ground for something (This was also discussed in the book "The Pentagon's New Map"):

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/01/12/paris-attacks-prompt-fears-france-muslim-no-go-zones-incubating-jihad/



> *Paris attacks prompt fears France's Muslim 'no-go' zones incubating jihad*
> By Karl de Vries
> Published January 12, 2015
> FoxNews.com
> ...


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## larry Strong (13 Jan 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> There's a video all over facebook and youtube now from anonymous apparently showing the cop on the ground didn't take a fatal head wound at all.  Now the whole thing was a CIA plot to keep France in line over sanctions on Russia... or some such thing.  My head hurts, people suck, I'm moving to the bush...
> 
> Edited to add link
> http://anonhq.com/uncensored-footage-paris-terror-attack-raises-serious-questions/





That kind of cr#p was out the same day *as* the shootings.


Note the date posted.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zriVAbO040c



Cheers
Larry


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## CougarKing (14 Jan 2015)

France's robust response to the terror attacks. Please note a posting on another thread on French CVN _Charles De Gaulle_'s deployment to the Indian Ocean/Middle East.

Military.com



> *France Sends Carrier to Mideast, Cracks Down on Hate Speech*
> Associated Press | Jan 14, 2015 | by Lori Hinnant
> PARIS — France ordered prosecutors around the country to crack down on hate speech, anti-Semitism and glorifying terrorism and announced Wednesday it was sending an aircraft carrier to the Mideast to work more closely with the U.S.-led coalition fighting Islamic State militants.
> 
> ...


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## George Wallace (14 Jan 2015)

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> France's robust response to the terror attacks. Please note a posting on another thread on French CVN _Charles De Gaulle_'s deployment to the Indian Ocean/Middle East.
> 
> Military.com
> 
> ...




I wonder if and when the UK may follow suit?


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## Kat Stevens (14 Jan 2015)

Britain will send a strongly worded letter to The Times, after ensuring it complies with new sensitivity laws.


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## The Bread Guy (15 Jan 2015)

More on the "cracking down on hate speech" angle ....


> French police detained controversial comedian Dieudonné M’Bala M’Bala for defence of terrorism over a Facebook posting following Sunday’s Charlie Hebdo solidarity march. Another man was sentenced to a year in prison for the same crime on Tuesday evening.
> 
> The comic, who goes by the stage name of Dieudonné, was taken into custody on Wednesday morning, following Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve’s furious reaction [1] to a posting that briefly appeared on the humourist’s Facebook page.
> 
> ...


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## Remius (15 Jan 2015)

No one can accuse the French of not taking action or messing around...


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## a_majoor (15 Jan 2015)

Right next door to France another terror cell gets taken out. Some video on link as well:

http://news.sky.com/story/1408633/suspected-jihadists-killed-in-belgium-raid



> *Suspected Jihadists Killed In Belgium Raid*
> 
> Two men die after they open fire on police who believe the group was about to launch a major terror attack, prosecutors say.
> 
> ...


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## Humphrey Bogart (15 Jan 2015)

BZ to Belgian Police


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## MilEME09 (15 Jan 2015)

According to CTV many of those arrested by Belgian Police were people who had just returned from Syria and we planning a "Terror attack on a massive scale" to quote CTV's anchor.


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## Jarnhamar (15 Jan 2015)

Crantor said:
			
		

> No one can accuse the French of not taking action or messing around...



Or ordering their soldiers to hide in civilian clothes.


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## Remius (15 Jan 2015)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Or ordering their soldiers to hide in civilian clothes.



Hard to do that when you actually deploy them to crush this crap.


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## Humphrey Bogart (15 Jan 2015)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Hard to do that when you actually deploy them to crush this crap.



We did this a few times, Canadians generally didn't take it to well.


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## Remius (15 Jan 2015)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> We did this a few timses, Canadians generally didn't take it to well.



Actually during the October Crisis, something like 89% of Canadians approved of the use of the military to end it.


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## Humphrey Bogart (15 Jan 2015)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Actually during the October Crisis, something like 89% of Canadians approved of the use of the military to end it.



True, but that still didn't stop the government from getting rid of the War Measures Act.  Maybe if it still existed we wouldn't have soldiers going to work in civilians.  The government would certainly have the power to take down some fundamentalist yahoo's a lot more quickly.


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## Robert0288 (15 Jan 2015)

I'm sure if there was a fundamentalist yahoo cell which security forces (RCMP/CSIS etc..) had enough information on to hit, being able to hit them would not be an issue.  Right now the situation does not need the war measures act, and certainly doesn't need LAV3s set up outside of embassies.


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## Humphrey Bogart (15 Jan 2015)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> I'm sure if there was a fundamentalist yahoo cell which security forces (RCMP/CSIS etc..) had enough information on to hit, being able to hit them would not be an issue.  Right now the situation does not need the war measures act, and certainly doesn't need LAV3s set up outside of embassies.



I was being deliberately ridiculous when I posted that... But are you sure they would do the hit?  CSIS knew Jeff Delisle was spying for a couple of years but didn't bother to tell the RCMP because they were afraid of "legal ramifications" ... My point is, our security forces are, IMO, a little too "rice bowlish" and we may just need a little less devolution and a little more cohesion.


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## Old Sweat (15 Jan 2015)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> True, but that still didn't stop the government from getting rid of the War Measures Act.  Maybe if it still existed we wouldn't have soldiers going to work in civilians.  The government would certainly have the power to take down some fundamentalist yahoo's a lot more quickly.



Let's separate the War Measures Act in the FLQ Crisis from the deployment of the army, which was done under two distinct authorizations. The first, which saw 2 Combat Group from Petawawa deployed to the National Capital Region to guard sensitive personnel and installation was done under the umbrella of support to another government department, in this case the Solicitor General Department and its subordinate force, the RCMP. The second, support to the Government of Quebec, was done in reaction to a requisition by the provincial attorney general under Part 11 of the National Defence Act. Neither authorized martial law or suspended civilian control of the administration of law and order or authorized detention of civilians by the military. Last, each and every member of the CF deployed was still subject to the Criminal Code and its provisions for due process, minimum force and proportional response.


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## Robert0288 (16 Jan 2015)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> I was being deliberately ridiculous when I posted that... But are you sure they would do the hit?



Sorry it's hard to pick up via internet forum.



> CSIS knew Jeff Delisle was spying for a couple of years but didn't bother to tell the RCMP because they were afraid of "legal ramifications" ... My point is, our security forces are, IMO, a little too "rice bowlish" and we may just need a little less devolution and a little more cohesion.


Without derailing this thread, I do know that law enforcement agencies and traditional intel agencies are always trying new and better ways to work together.  It's not perfect, but it's certainly better than it used to be, and everything is only getting more interconnected.


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## a_majoor (16 Jan 2015)

The non response by the US administration to the solidarity march in Paris gets savagely lampooned:

http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/201033/#respond


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## a_majoor (16 Jan 2015)

Perhaps France is going to see a different sort of response based on changing cultural and religious mores, the sort which have escaped notice by the mainstream press until now. The approach by the parish priest in this anecdote seems to be the right way to approach the Christian faith; "a Catholicism that is both doctrinally robust and joyfully welcoming":

http://theweek.com/articles/531469/there-christianrevival-starting-france



> *Is there a Christian revival starting in France?*
> Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry
> January 15, 2015
> 
> ...


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## a_majoor (19 Jan 2015)

Marine Le Pen makes a forceful statment about Islamic radicalism in France. While many in the political and bureaucratic arena shy away from speaking like this, Le Pen obviously believes that a large number of French voters will be receptive to this sort of talk (or are frustrated by the constant pussyfooting around by politicians, bureaucrats and the media). Now we will see what sort of response this brings:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/19/opinion/marine-le-pen-france-was-attacked-by-islamic-fundamentalism.html?_r=1



> *To Call This Threat by Its Name*
> Marine Le Pen: France Was Attacked by Islamic Fundamentalism
> 
> By MARINE LE PEN
> ...


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## tomahawk6 (21 Jan 2015)

2600 inteelligence and counter-terrorism agents are to be hired.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2015/01/21/france-to-get-better-guns-more-intel-agents-to-fight-terror/22097137/


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