# Identifying the threat & Structuring for homeland defence [From: The Downward Diffusion of Combined Arms]



## Sea-dog (1 Feb 2005)

It is nice to meet you all ! 
Some of the guys already know me,I am a South African living in Israel.
Reading all the comments I find it very interesting,and I hope that your Generals will take the time to read 
some of the suggestion,it might save them a lot of time and money.

However, it is clear that your philosophy is based on a large force with the capability of operating abroad.......Leave this to the U.S.A

First and foremost identify all the possible threats to Canada .Only then do you have the formula to create,design and train those units needed to saveguard Canada.
This whole security and defence system involves everyone,civil defence,homeland security,the police and all armed forces.The level of cooporation,intergration will ultimately decide if you will survive the next attack.

Always remember "a chain is only as strong as the weakest link ! " Do not get caught with your pants down, while you are fighting overseas some small terrorist will take out one of your major cities !
Never say never again it is often the obvious, that is often overlooked that decide the outcome of many battles.
Protect yourself ......then worry about the others. Learn the lessons of 9/11 well ! 
God bless the Canadian Armed Forces and all that serve in it.


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## Zipper (28 Feb 2005)

Sea-dog said:
			
		

> However, it is clear that your philosophy is based on a large force with the capability of operating abroad.......Leave this to the U.S.A



Yes it is. The one problem with this is. The people would not accept this. If we were to concentrate on just defending ourselves, many of our own people would then say "The US will protect us, why do we need a military anyway?". It already gets asked far to often.

We are a large rich nation that everyone expects to give "aid" when asked. Thus that is what our military has fallen into.



			
				Sea-dog said:
			
		

> Always remember "a chain is only as strong as the weakest link ! " Do not get caught with your pants down, while you are fighting overseas some small terrorist will take out one of your major cities!
> Never say never again it is often the obvious, that is often overlooked that decide the outcome of many battles.
> Protect yourself ......then worry about the others. Learn the lessons of 9/11 well !



I guess you are right in many ways. However, the chance of us having a "city" taken out is rather small. Naive? Yes. As well, saying "never say never again" just doesn't seem to hold water in Canada. After every war we have slashed and burnt our military to levels that ask if we have learnt anything at all. Today our capabilities are in comparison to where we were in the mid 30's. Wise? I think not.


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## ArmyRick (28 Feb 2005)

Seadog and Zipper, you guys both bring up valid points.

We must identify threats to our country first (oh yes, there are groups and nations out there that don't like the ever nice canadians). This could even include those terrorist people or organizations working in Canada (We have a weak justice system).

However, our people expect us to be out helping the world. That is IMO a public demand, so away we go. Some people are naive about it and some people understand more of what is really involved in our Ops.

On this whole issue our nation needs a wake up call. I really hope we do not have our own 9/11. Some people would say I am being an alarmist, but it is a very dangerous world.


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## Zipper (1 Mar 2005)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> On this whole issue our nation needs a wake up call. I really hope we do not have our own 9/11. Some people would say I am being an alarmist, but it is a very dangerous world.



No argument here. Thus it calls into question why we are limiting ourselves to such a niche roll as far as our whole military doctrine? Interesting? GA!


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## Sea-dog (1 Mar 2005)

Hi there all !

The intention behind and my motivation for joining this web-site and forum, is to try to convince you guys out there in Canada that by the time you get the "WAKE UP CALL ! " it is to late.

Better safe than sorry ! Any one that watched the news the last few days will see how we here in Israel paid the price for allowing the world to dictate to us policies and for believing the Arabs. Time and time again they hit as hard, everytime we relax and allow diplomatic issues to dictate military operational values.

I am just trying to safe you the hardship of learning the hard way ! Those out there plotting against Canada do NOT have the same principles or human values, they do not think like you and therefore they do not fight like you.

The mistakes in peacetime ........is the disaster in wartime ! :skull:
It is time the Canadian public gets educated and awareness installed even from school level to look,see  and report anyting suspicious or unusual in their every day lives.

ArmyRick : it is better to be called a "Alarmist" than to have to help dig the graves for hundreds of victims after some terror attack.
Go forth and teach, learn from the mistakes made in the past and build a new safer future for all in Canada even if it is at the cost of offending some small minorities !!

Safe Diving ! Bubbles Up ! 
Ho Ha Canada !


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## Zipper (1 Mar 2005)

Sea-dog said:
			
		

> The intention behind and my motivation for joining this web-site and forum, is to try to convince you guys out there in Canada that by the time you get the "WAKE UP CALL ! " it is to late.
> 
> Better safe than sorry ! Any one that watched the news the last few days will see how we here in Israel paid the price for allowing the world to dictate to us policies and for believing the Arabs. Time and time again they hit as hard, everytime we relax and allow diplomatic issues to dictate military operational values.



I would guess that we here in Canada do not wish to live in a constant paranoid state. We do not have the same kind of cultural/historical enemies that you have there. 

The large problem with your situation is that their are forces on both sides (beyond the control of either government) that do not want peace, and would love to just kill one another outright. Which I personally see as a shame.

For some reason, you guys are fighting the same battles (and for the same reasons) that your fore fathers fought several thousand years ago. We do not have any such engrained hatred. Yes, we have both sides of your factions living here that I am sure could spill over if the circumstances were right. But the chance of either side wanting to blow up each other up, plus the surrounding city with which they are apart is not likely to happen.

The only thing I could see, is the fact that living next to the States could attract the wrong attention if we decided to participate with them in say the invasion of Saudia Arabia or some such. That would be a bad thing.

But I think that is better left to another thread topic.


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## Sea-dog (5 Mar 2005)

I am troubled by the general underlying philosophy,embedded in the Canadian approach to a multitude of subjects discussed on this forum.
When members pose questions like :" Does Canada need a military ?"   OR " The need for EOD units " Why is it necessary to have IED units ? " Should Canada have Marines or Combat divers ?

I am stunned ,and shocked that even in this day and age there are still people that do not comprehend the graveness of the situation posed by international terrorism.
It reflex some form of denial or a childlike naivety !!

 All Canadians MUST just once ,step back and take a good look in the mirror !
Its a nightmare,.........a human Titanic sailing towards its own distruction ! :skull:

I wonder what it will take to wake you guys up ?

As we speak,it is clearly supported by comments on this forum that the Canadian government is trying to save money,that the military leadership is turning a blind eye and playing ball with the politicians.
This all at the cost of weakening that part of the Canadian infrastructure, the Defence Force, the only system that will quarantee a free democratic life in Canada.

 I have written quite a few comments on this forum,all of it supported by my life experiences growing up during the 60's and 70's in South Africa and for the last 20 years living in Israel.
All of the above supported by 13 years military experience,....BUT it is clear that all of this is not enough to convince the members of this forum that Canada should look seriously at its defence requirements.
Creating a new flexible moblie integrated defence force unique to Canadian defence requirements,and Not relying on the US to be your babysitter.

I surrender, God bless Canada


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## Ex-Dragoon (5 Mar 2005)

> Aggravating the whole situation is the fact that most recent intelligence has shown that nearly all of the hijackers of 9/11 used Canada as a base in transit or as a staging platform.Just recently Canada transfered a suspect to the US ,believed to have direct contact with the 9/11 terrorists.



Where is your proof on this? It was determined a long time ago by the US that none of the 9/11 terrorists came from Canada. Do you have any new evidence to suggest otherwise. Please back this claim or withdraw it.

Sea dog while I agree with your most of your posts, its really apparent you do not understand the Canadian psyche. Canadians are slowly realizing why we need a well equipped CF. If we regulate it to a "Self Defence Force" as you advocate  then people lose interest.  While I don't have the combat experience of South Africa or Israel nor would ever claim to have such I have been overseas enough times for UN embargos on Yugoslavia, Iraw and on Op Apollo for the War on Terror to know that if anything we need to be proactive even more so. We just need more troops and a hell of lot more equipment do do so.


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## Zipper (5 Mar 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Sea dog while I agree with your most of your posts, its really apparent you do not understand the Canadian psyche. Canadians are slowly realizing why we need a well equipped CF. If we regulate it to a "Self Defence Force" as you advocate   then people lose interest.





			
				Sea-dog said:
			
		

> I am stunned ,and shocked that even in this day and age there are still people that do not comprehend the graveness of the situation posed by international terrorism.
> It reflex some form of denial or a childlike naivety !!
> 
> All Canadians MUST just once ,step back and take a good look in the mirror !
> ...



As the statements above. We in Canada live in our own little world. We do not look to our own defense, because it has NEVER been threatened in a direct way for over 130 years. Unless you count the October crisis as a threat?

Maybe your right and we need to wake up. But what do you suggest? To turn ourselves into a military/police monitored country over something that happened in one of our allies territory? If this were the case, we would have done so many years ago after the bombings in England by the IRA. The bombings in Spain, italy, etc.

Terrorism has been around A LONG time. Do we live with it everyday as you do in Isreal or S. Africa? No. Thus we turn a blind eye to it and live our lives, only noticing it again when the news agencies take notice of it. Do we take notice of it even then? No. I barely turn an ear to the TV when I hear of another suicide bomber in Tel Aviv, it has happened so often. 

Yes, we need to wake up to the fact that the world is a dangerous place. Thus we need a stronger military to better reflect our forgien policy. 

Yes, we need to look at those who enter our country a little more closely so that they are not participating in illegal activities against other nations. Thus we need better border and intelligence agencies.

Yes, we need to better equip our forces for homeland security. Since that is the base reason for having a military at all.

No, we do not need to pull the borders closed around us and stick a gun out the door every time someone comes knocking. We do not need police or soldiers patroling our streets with automatic weapons. And we certainly do not need to be paranoid of everything and everyone around us.


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## ArmyRick (6 Mar 2005)

In Canada we need a major attitude adjustment. Too many people take their personal freedom and rights for granted. Freedom has a price, it always has. It must be defended.


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## McG (7 Mar 2005)

I don't think we need to make the military the first line of national security.

I would not mind seeing a single department for all of our "pure" security agencies (maybe Department of National Security).  It would hold RCMP, Coast Guard, port & boarder security, airport security, and the guy that hires the commissionaires.  It could even have helicopter jobs that CF pilots could be posted into.


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## Infanteer (7 Mar 2005)

So, essentially a Canadian version of the Department of Homeland Defence?

I think in the old days, when government positions had cool names, they titled this the "Interior Ministry".  Now that title goes to fluffy environmental stuff - which may, if one reads Kaplan, be one of our true National Security concerns in the 21st century....


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## McG (7 Mar 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> So, essentially a Canadian version of the Department of Homeland Defence?


Not exactly.  I don't see postal workers or tax collectors comming under this umbrella.


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## Sea-dog (7 Mar 2005)

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> In Canada we need a major attitude adjustment. Too many people take their personal freedom and rights for granted. Freedom has a price, it always has. It must be defended.



Ex-Dragon : I deleted my statement ;D Splitting hairs wont help solve your problems ! Weather I am factionally correct, or not..........only the future will tell.
I heard on Sky News that the Chief of British Police apparently said that there are +/- 200 Al QED members walking free in England !
E-MAIL STORY                              PRINTER FRIENDLY                              FOXFAN CENTRAL   
Canadian Cops: Terror Suspect Tied to U.K. Detainees 
Friday, April 02, 2004

TORONTO â â€ Canadian police said Friday that a 24-year-old Ottawa man arrested on terror charges earlier this week has connections to the arrest of eight men in Britain. 

Hell,.........I am curious , HOW MANY are walking free in Canada right NOW !

Zipper:
No, we do not need to pull the borders closed around us and stick a gun out the door every time someone comes knocking. We do not need police or soldiers patroling our streets with automatic weapons. And we certainly do not need to be paranoid of everything and everyone around us.

Hel Zipper, why do we when things become tough ,have to jump from one extreme to a nother ?
No one is suggesting that Canada places tanks on stand-by in your cities!

Start,...by looking for possibilities, creating under-cover covert intelligence to identify possible groups or people that would like to launch an attack on Canada.

Based on good intelligence Canada can then create ,and better utilise its consolidated forces to be tailored to counter act any threat from within or from abroad .

We here in Israel,believe it or not live life to the fullest, we know how to enjoy ourselves, we work hard and we also play hard. We are not paranoiac,.......we are just alert and very carefull ! Thus we have saved many lives.

On the other hand just to agree with what I have to say is not enough ! Actions !.......speak louder than words.

Someone once said : "Standing by silently,when one should speak out,....makes cowards of MEN."

Till later, Sea-dog


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## Sea-dog (7 Mar 2005)

Ex-Dragon :
Where is your proof on this? It was determined a long time ago by the US that none of the 9/11 terrorists came from Canada. Do you have any new evidence to suggest otherwise. Please back this claim or withdraw it.

Sea-dog : Ex-Dragon, take some time and read this link : www.adl.org/Terror/tu/tu_0401_canada.asp
"Canada and Terrorism" Posted Jan.2004. under Terrorism Update.

I believe it will be good for all the members on this forum to read this news flash,......MAYBE THEN the urgency of the hole matter will dawn upon you!! 

This will, I hope, shape your philosophies and change your mind-set,and maybe then you will see why I have been so determined to get everyone here to understand the importance of a new type defence force.A intergrated ,flexible, mobile force that can operate at sea ,on land and in the air to successfully combat the new threat of the 20th century.

Wake Up Canada.......before it is to late


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Mar 2005)

> Ex-Dragon :
> Where is your proof on this? It was determined a long time ago by the US that none of the 9/11 terrorists came from Canada. Do you have any new evidence to suggest otherwise. Please back this claim or withdraw it.
> 
> Sea-dog : Ex-Dragon, take some time and read this link : www.adl.org/Terror/tu/tu_0401_canada.asp
> "Canada and Terrorism" Posted Jan.2004. under Terrorism Update.



My point was you said that the 9/11 terrorists operated from Canada...the US has since said otherwise and your site that you provided offers no proof that the 9/11 scum bags came in from Canada. Hence the reason why I called you out on this. There is no doubt that Canada has it issues but we are working on them. Change does not happen overnight! So relax and take a pill.


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## Rushrules (9 Mar 2005)

Hey, what happened to the Ann Coulter pics???  Someone who believes the world is only 6000 yrs old has the credentials to criticize the porous border..

Anyway, that "article" has been rehashed before and after 9-11.  If you cut and pasted any other western country and you would get the same assessment (of the enemies of Israel).  You might as well exhume Hoover and McCarthy while you're at it.

What really irks me is this "article" makes people more paranoid than they should be. There's more chance of being killed by lightning (or winning the lottery) in Canada and the US.  Well, it at least mentioned a real crime, the air india bombing as an afterthought.  

Didn't the 9-11 highjackers board planes in Boston? maybe our biggest threat is the Yanks!! Now, should I spy on aunt Mildred from Boston??? She pays her dues at the church, which used to fund the IRA >


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## Zipper (10 Mar 2005)

Sea-dog said:
			
		

> Start,...by looking for possibilities, creating under-cover covert intelligence to identify possible groups or people that would like to launch an attack on Canada.
> 
> Based on good intelligence Canada can then create ,and better utilise its consolidated forces to be tailored to counter act any threat from within or from abroad .



We have an under-cover covert intelligence agency (sort of). Its called CSIS. They do their job to a certain degree, hand the info to higher ups that ignore it and/or leak the info on how it was gathered to the media, who then go off the deep end and accuse CSIS of breaking the charter of rights by spying on "innocent" civilians.

Ah, the wheel goes round.


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## oyaguy (10 Mar 2005)

Unlike Israel, Canada isn't surrounded by hostile countries. We border one nation, whom we are friendly with.
So when assessing threats to Canada don't bother looking for _credible_ conventional threats to Canada.
As for terrorists... they are a threat. However, are they such a threat that the military should be a priority for funding and manpower?
Given the elusive nature of terrorists, more border guards, a real coast guard {or an navy with bigger coast patrol} air marshalls {which we have done a good job of}, more RCMP officers, and more CSIS agents to ferret out terrorists cells would be more useful than say, tanks for the army. 

To me, in the Canadian context, the military is the wrong organization for the home front against terrorism.  The military is more useful in an October crisis type situation, when you need a lot of boots on the ground, and fast. Of course, that means an attack has already happened.

When it comes to terrorists, all we can really do is minimize the amount of damage they do. Anyone who thinks we can completely stop terrorists, is deluding themselves. It's Islamic Fundamentalists today, it could  be White Supremacists tomorrow.


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## TCBF (10 Mar 2005)

"heck,.........I am curious , HOW MANY are walking free in Canada right NOW !"

All of them.

Tom


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## oyaguy (10 Mar 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> "heck,.........I am curious , HOW MANY are walking free in Canada right NOW !"
> 
> All of them.
> 
> Tom



Isn't that frustrating? Here governments are doing a lot crap in the name of national security, and they never prosecute anyone. No one goes to jail, no one serves time. 

The theory being, "well, terrorists plots of have been foiled". Maybe, maybe not. But generally in free societies, we like to see the bad guys behind bars, eventually. Come on, plotting to blow something up has to be a crime. Do the terrorists have to blow something up before they're guilty of something?


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## TCBF (11 Mar 2005)

"Do the terrorists have to blow something up before they're guilty of something?"

No.  They have to blow something up, be caught, arrested, tried, and convicted.  THEN they are guilty of something.  Sorry.

Tom


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## Zipper (11 Mar 2005)

oyaguy said:
			
		

> The theory being, "well, terrorists plots of have been foiled". Maybe, maybe not. But generally in free societies, we like to see the bad guys behind bars, eventually. Come on, plotting to blow something up has to be a crime. Do the terrorists have to blow something up before they're guilty of something?



For the number of times I plotted to blow up various teachers cars and the like back in the day, would that have made me a terrorist?

No.

If I had actually have done it. Then I would be a criminal.

What we have to do, is somehow connect these "terrorists" to known groups, and depending on their activities, then as them to leave the country or deport them.


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## Sea-dog (11 Mar 2005)

There are many ways to deal with terrorism.
 It is a fact that terrorist organisations are directly involved in organised crime,drugs and money laundering and illegal weapons sales.

This is the first line of defence,catch them at these illegal acts ,before the drugs or guns kill your kids.
A more serious line to this problem,is when these organisations will start planning and then executing acts of terror using your hospitality,to launch attacks against the USA or even Israel.
The latter will have grave consequences for Canada politically and could even result in some form of retaliation causing a rift or destabilizing relationships between the members of the coalition.

I urge the members of this forum to carefully read the link I posted before,and there are many more such sites on the web.
When there is smoke,.........be sure there is some where a FIRE !! :skull:

America (US) has openly said, that if a country knowingly allow their territory to be used to plan ,train,
support or execute acts of terrorism against any other state or country, THEY ARE AS GUILTY AS THE TERRORIST.

It is therefore imperative that not only do you have to create,those forces to protect your own citizens,
BUT as important ,Canada requires the type and force size to prevent organisations within Canada from attacking any other country in the world.

The problem facing you is double edged, therefore when you decide to modernise,consolidate and create a new Canadian Defence Force, all of the above must be part of your new calculations.
Be wise in your analyses,while determining the new threat that face your Country.Those living under your umbrella of democracy,might be willing to sacrifice all that you stand for to achieve their selfish goals abroad.
 ??? Sea-dog


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