# Canada's New Defence Minister



## dapaterson

Figured I'd open a thread for the inevitable discussion that will flow once someone is named (in the next half hour or so).


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## The Bread Guy

Well, it looks like we know who ain't Def Min - this from the _Ottawa Citizen_ re:  perp walk "the march of the ministers" this morning @ Rideau Hall....


> .... Noticeably absent was retired Lt. Gen. Andrew Leslie, the MP for Orléans ....


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## cavalryman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Well, it looks like we know who ain't Def Min - this from the _Ottawa Citizen_ re:  perp walk "the march of the ministers" this morning @ Rideau Hall....



The Citizen is touting Harjit Sajjan as MND... another good armoured officer  ;D


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## The Bread Guy

cavalryman said:
			
		

> The Citizen is touting Harjit Sajjan as MND... another good armoured officer  ;D


More from his bio here:


> Harjit Sajjan immigrated to Canada from India with his family when he was five years old. Having grown up in South Vancouver, Harjit benefitted from everything this diverse and culturally rich community had to offer. While attending local elementary and high schools, Harjit was active in many of the sporting and athletic programs.
> 
> Harjit is married to Dr. Kuljit Kaur Sajjan, a UBC-educated family doctor, and together they have two young children.
> 
> Speaking about Harjit, Brigadier-General David Fraser was quoted in a letter to then Chief Constable Jamie Graham of the Vancouver Police Department:
> 
> “He was the best single Canadian intelligence asset in theatre, and his hard work, personal bravery, and dogged determination undoubtedly saved a multitude of Coalition lives. Through his courage and dedication, (then) Major Sajjan has singlehandedly changed the face of intelligence gathering and analysis in Afghanistan.”
> 
> Harjit Sajjan has four operational deployments; one to Bosnia and three deployments to Afghanistan. He has been awarded the following honours in recognition of his service to Canada:
> 
> Order of Military Merit
> Meritorious Service Medal
> Southwest Asia Service Medal (Afghanistan)
> General Campaign Star (Afghanistan)
> Mention in Dispatch
> Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal
> NATO Service Medal (Bosnia)
> Golden Jubilee Medal
> Diamond Jubilee Medal
> Canadian Forces’ Decoration
> US Army Commendation Medal
> Chief of Defence Staff Commendation
> Deputy Minister Award (Department of National Defence)
> 
> Harjit Sajjan was a member of the Vancouver Police Department for 11 Years serving in South Vancouver and was selected as a Detective for the Gang Crime Unit. Harjit has long been advocating for education and mentorship programs that engage the youth to become more active members of society, while strengthening youth defense against the rule of gangs and drugs.
> 
> Born in a small village in India, Harjit learned the importance of the very basic human necessities at a young age. He is immensely grateful for the privilege of being a Canadian and now participates in humanitarian efforts where ever he can make a difference. He and his wife have four sponsored children and support many charities that promote health and education to impoverished children.


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## McG

I have to generally agree with this opinion.



> *Don't make a general mistake Leslie not the right man for DND*
> David Krayden
> The Ottawa Sun
> 
> When selecting a minister of national defence, it might seem like a no-brainer to appoint a former lieutenant-general to the ranks of your caucus.
> 
> Andrew Leslie, newly elected Liberal MP from Orleans, was commander of the Canadian Army. He is also the grandson of not one but two Canadian defence ministers: military legend Gen. Andrew McNaughton and Brooke Claxton, who served under prime ministers Mackenzie King and St. Laurent. Many of Leslie's military admirers and hagiographic profilers considered him destined to be chief of defence staff .
> 
> Stephen Harper bypassed him and instead appointed Leslie to the office of something called Chief of Transformation. Maybe Harper hoped he would transform into a Conservative.
> 
> When Leslie left the military he bolted to Justin Trudeau's Liberals, no doubt betting he could achieve an even higher office in the military world through political means.
> 
> The temptation for Trudeau to appoint Leslie to defence must seem irresistible.
> 
> He should resist it.
> 
> Leslie is simply too close and too much a product of the problem he will be asked to confront as minister: the labyrinth and enigma that is the Department of National Defence.
> 
> It will take not a former inmate of the establishment but an outsider to tackle the need for change at DND.
> 
> Harper made the same error in judgment when he made Gordon O'Connor, a retired brigadier-general, his first defence minister. O'Connor, who faced one controversy after another, always appeared to be competing with those in uniform who had once outranked him. Peter MacKay, an efficacious mixture of easy ebullience and hard-fisted determination, thankfully replaced O'Conner in due time.
> 
> The new defence minister will also face some daunting and urgent issues.
> 
> Leslie may well have been too tied to the Army holistically represent both the Air Force and Navy.
> 
> Leslie is already making noise about reducing the number of managers at DND and improving the military "tooth to tail" ratio, or combat capability over administrative capacity. Every Liberal and Conservative government since the first Trudeau has pledged to give the military more teeth but somehow the tail keeps getting longer.
> 
> In 35 years of service, many of those at senior officer rank, Leslie is well acquainted with the problems at DND -too well acquainted. His management talents might be better utilized elsewhere.
> 
> -- _David krayden is a former military public affairs officer and parliamentary communications officer who now writes on federal politics._


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## Kirkhill

> “On October 19, Canadians spoke loudly and clearly, that they want a government that will bring real change – in both the things that it does, and the way that it does them,” he said.



http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/new-liberal-government-sworn-in-today


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## opcougar

How is Leslie MP for Orleans when his move that caused the furore in the media back then, wasn't Orleans centric? Just curious



			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Well, it looks like we know who ain't Def Min - this from the _Ottawa Citizen_ re:  perp walk "the march of the ministers" this morning @ Rideau Hall....


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## RocketRichard

Good choice for M.N.D.  Bravo Zulu Sir!


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## jollyjacktar

Excellent news.  I remember him on my last tour in the sandbox.  Thank whatever gods there are that it wasn't AL.  He didn't even make the cut for anything.   :rofl:


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## The Bread Guy

Another interesting "double hatting" in the list, according to CBC.ca:


> .... Kent Hehr - Veterans Affairs, and Associate Minister of National Defence ....


From his bio:


> Kent J. Hehr was born and raised in Calgary. Kent’s mom worked as a school principal and his father as the president of the Alberta Teachers’ Association, making education and public service part of the fabric of everyday life. Kent took an early interest in sports, especially hockey, with an eye to a career as a phys-ed teacher. In 1989-90 he played with the Calgary Canucks and helped win the Alberta Junior Hockey League Championship. The follKent downtownowing year he attended Mount Royal College and played with the Cougars, his stick-handling getting better and better.
> 
> Then, Kent’s life changed forever. In October 1991, while riding in a friend’s car, Kent was hit by a drive-by shooter. The injury left him paralyzed. He would never walk again.
> 
> Like thousands of Canadians with life-altering spinal cord injuries, Kent’s path changed, but his pace didn’t. In fact, if anything, it quickened. While still re-learning to use his fingers, Kent studied at the University of Calgary, and received a Bachelor of Canadian Studies followed by a Bachelor of Law in 2001. In recognition of his abilities, commitment and early impact on the community, the university named Kent its Graduate of the Decade, and one of the 40 top graduates over the last 40 years.
> 
> Kent practiced law at the prestigious national firm, Fraser Milner Casgrain, and became an active community leader, working with the United Way and heading the Alberta branch of the Canadian Paraplegic Association. In 2006, he was named Top 40 Under 40 by Calgary Inc. Magazine, and in 2008 Kent was named one of the Calgary Herald’s 20 Most Compelling Calgarians to Watch. Later that year he won the race to represent Calgary-Buffalo in the Alberta Legislature, Kent-Deannaa seat he successfully defended in 2012. In 2014, he announced his intention to run in the next federal election ....


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## Humphrey Bogart

Super happy about this!  Harjit Sajjan is a man I have tremendous respect for.


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## opcougar

Full List


The full list of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's new 31-member cabinet, in order of precedence, being sworn in today at Rideau Hall in Ottawa (with their province in parenthesis):
■Justin Trudeau (Quebec) - Prime Minister, Intergovernmental Affairs and Youth.
■Ralph Goodale (Saskatchewan) - Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.
■Lawrence MacAulay (P.E.I.) - Agriculture and Agri-Food.
■Stéphane Dion (Quebec) - Foreign Affairs.
■John McCallum (Ontario) - Immigration, Citizenship and Refugees.
■Carolyn Bennett (Ontario) - Indigenous and Northern Affairs.
■Scott Brison (Nova Scotia) - Treasury Board President.
■Dominic Leblanc (New Brunswick) - Leader of the Government in the House of Commons.
■Navdeep Bains (Ontario) - Innovation, Science and Economic Development.
■Bill Morneau (Ontario) - Finance Minister.
■Jody Wilson-Raybould (B.C.) - Justice and Attorney General of Canada.
■Judy Foote (Newfoundland and Labrador) - Public Services and Procurement.
■Chrystia Freeland (Ontario) - International Trade.
■Jane Philpott (Ontario) - Health.
■Jean-Yves Duclos (Quebec) - Families, Children and Social Development.
■Marc Garneau (Quebec) - Transport.
■Marie-Claude Bibeau (Quebec) - International Development and La francophonie.
■Jim Carr (Manitoba) - Natural Resources.
■Mélanie Joly (Quebec) - Heritage.
■Diane Lebouthillier (Quebec) - National Revenue.
■Kent Hehr (Alberta) - Veterans Affairs, and Associate Minister of National Defence.
■Catherine McKenna (Ontario) - Environment and Climate Change.
■Harjit Sajjan (B.C.) - National Defence.
■MaryAnn Mihychuck (Manitoba) - Employment Workforce Development and Labour.
■Amarjeet Sohi (Alberta) - Infrastructure and Communities.
■Maryam Monsef (Ontario) - Democratic Institutions.
■Carla Qualtrough (B.C.) - Sport, and Persons with Disabilities.
■Hunter Tootoo (Nunavut) - Fisheries and Oceans, and Canadian Coastguard.
■Kirsty Duncan (Ontario) - Science.
■Patricia Hajdu (Ontario) - Status of Women.
■Bardish Chagger (Ontario) - Small Business and Tourism.


Map shows the regional distribution of ministers in the cabinet of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. (CBC)

Ref: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/full-list-of-justin-trudeau-s-cabinet-1.3300699


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## cavalryman

Give the liberals their due - it's not a bad front bench, all things told.  Some of the more questionable appointments a lot of us worried about seem to have been avoided.  Like many around here, I'm happy with the choice of MND.


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## opcougar

As an immigrant i.e. wasn't born here and a visible minority, it's nice to see someone "different" in such a position compared to the usual. Toronto has a Black police chief (first time for that), BC had a chief of Chinese decent before, and Ontario also had a Black Lt Gov General in the past who happens to have an overpass named after him in Hamilton.

At the end of the day, yes colour of skin, gender, age shouldn't be a determinant for a position, but unfortunately we live in a world where a lot of these still goes on. Is Canada ever going to have a minority PM? The US after all has Obama, Germany has Merkkel, GB had Thatcher, Philippines had Imelda Marcus, etc

Just to put a face to the new MND


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## dangerboy

opcougar said:
			
		

> At the end of the day, yes colour of skin, gender, age shouldn't be a determinant for a position, but unfortunately we live in a world where a lot of these still goes on. Is Canada ever going to have a minority PM? The US after all has Obama, Germany has Merkkel, GB had Thatcher, Philippines had Imelda Marcus, etc



We had Kim Campbell as Prime Minister in 1993, while she did not serve for a long term she was the PM.


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## Blackadder1916

opcougar said:
			
		

> . . .  Is Canada ever going to have a minority PM? The US after all has Obama, Germany has Merkkel, GB had Thatcher, Philippines had Imelda Marcus, etc



So you include women in your definition of "minority"?  Now if only that had happened in Canada.





First woman Prime Minister of Canada


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## OldTanker

I think Mr. (LCol) Sajjan has clearly shown his commitment to his adopted country, more so than many who were born here. I have only met him once in passing but mutual acquaintances speak very highly of him. I wish him the best of luck in his new portfolio.


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## opcougar

Ack. But am sure you know the emphasis of my post was NOT solely on women. How about the other stuff in my post.....care to provide feedback on say chances of a non-Canadian born / non-White / another woman becoming PM? This is not meant to be an argument, but instead honest question based on the developments in other parts of the world.

Thanks




			
				dangerboy said:
			
		

> We had Kim Campbell as Prime Minister in 1993, while she did not serve for a long term she was the PM.


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## ModlrMike

opcougar said:
			
		

> Ack. But am sure you know the emphasis of my post was NOT solely on women. How about the other stuff in my post.....care to provide feedback on say chances of a non-Canadian born / non-White / another woman becoming PM? This is not meant to be an argument, but instead honest question based on the developments in other parts of the world.
> 
> Thanks



As long as we remain a meritocracy, it's really more up to them rather than us. Manage the opportunity, not the outcome.


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## McG

opcougar said:
			
		

> Ack. But am sure you know the emphasis of my post was NOT solely on women. How about the other stuff in my post.....care to provide feedback on say chances of a non-Canadian born / non-White / another woman becoming PM? This is not meant to be an argument, but instead honest question based on the developments in other parts of the world.
> 
> Thanks


I think we are getting off topic.


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## opcougar

By "them" you mean? For some reason that doesn't come across well i.e. "them". I mean do we refer to most people's parents, grandparents great grandparents who came here years ago as "them", or are they different for some reason even though some from Eastern Europe decades later still can't speak any of the 2 official languages???

There is only so much "managing" a non-white / not Canadian immigrant can do. There is still a lot of old school preconceived xenophobia, and "just because" mentality out there. Young kids grow up now with a myriad of nationalties / cultures and learn to just see them as another buddy / friends vice the outlook that the kids parents have instilled in them by their parents i.e. "stay away from that group <insert some BS reason in here>





			
				ModlrMike said:
			
		

> As long as we remain a meritocracy, it's really more up to them rather than us. Manage the opportunity, not the outcome.


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## Fishbone Jones

Back on track. The thread is about the new MND.

---Staff---


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## Colin Parkinson

So should i start a rumour that his plan is to equip one Res Armoured Regt in each Brigade with Leopards...... :stirpot:


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## cavalryman

Colin P said:
			
		

> So should i start a rumour that his plan is to equip one Res Armoured Regt in each Brigade with Leopards...... :stirpot:


Do you mean the LdSH, RCD and 12eRBC are being turned into PRes units?  :stirpot: op:


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## Inspir

It will be interesting to see what the relationship between the new MND and the CDS will be like. I know that there was some tension between Brigadier-General (Ret'd) O'Connor and General (Ret'd) Hillier.


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## Edward Campbell

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Super happy about this!  Harjit Sajjan is a man I have tremendous respect for.




Notwithstanding his personal qualities, which, since I do not know him, I am happy to agree are many and exemplary, I fail to see how he is qualified, as a reserve LCol or as a police detective, to _direct and manage_ one of the largest, most complex and biggest spending departments in government and one which has a regular, sad but noteworthy habit of tripping over its own dick. 

There's nothing about a military career that especially suits one to be MND: Brooke Claxton, one of the better ones, was a Battery Sergeant Major in the First World War, but he was a very good defence minister because:

     1. He was a skilled and veteran politician who had the confidence of his prime minister, St Lauren; and

     2. He was immune to the blandishments of his admirals, generals and civil servants ~ perhaps because he, not they, "ran" the department, for his, not their, purposes.

I also think the Gordon O'Connor was a good MND in part because of his recent military experience. He was a retired BGen, retired from NDHQ, who knew how the "office politics" worked and he was mightily unimpressed with the CDS of the day. He got what he wanted because he knew how to work with and within cabinet and how to push and pull all the levers in NDHQ.

Minister Sajjan's résumé is pretty light on high level management, which is what a MND does. 

He may be, I'm sure he is, an estimable man, but I think he's a _token_ choice for MND and I fear that DND will not do well, in the political _centre_ (PMO, PCO, Finance and Treasury Board) with a _rookie_ at the helm.


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## Kirkhill

opcougar said:
			
		

> Full List
> 
> 
> The full list of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's new 31-member cabinet, in order of precedence, being sworn in today at Rideau Hall in Ottawa (with their province in parenthesis):
> ■Justin Trudeau (Quebec) - Prime Minister, Intergovernmental Affairs and Youth.
> ■Ralph Goodale (Saskatchewan) - Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.
> ■Lawrence MacAulay (P.E.I.) - Agriculture and Agri-Food.
> ■Stéphane Dion (Quebec) - Foreign Affairs.
> ■John McCallum (Ontario) - Immigration, Citizenship and Refugees.
> ■Carolyn Bennett (Ontario) - Indigenous and Northern Affairs.
> ■Scott Brison (Nova Scotia) - Treasury Board President.
> ■Dominic Leblanc (New Brunswick) - Leader of the Government in the House of Commons.
> ■Navdeep Bains (Ontario) - Innovation, Science and Economic Development.
> ■Bill Morneau (Ontario) - Finance Minister.
> ■Jody Wilson-Raybould (B.C.) - Justice and Attorney General of Canada.
> ■Judy Foote (Newfoundland and Labrador) - Public Services and Procurement.
> ■Chrystia Freeland (Ontario) - International Trade.
> ■Jane Philpott (Ontario) - Health.
> ■Jean-Yves Duclos (Quebec) - Families, Children and Social Development.
> ■Marc Garneau (Quebec) - Transport.
> ■Marie-Claude Bibeau (Quebec) - International Development and La francophonie.
> ■Jim Carr (Manitoba) - Natural Resources.
> ■Mélanie Joly (Quebec) - Heritage.
> ■Diane Lebouthillier (Quebec) - National Revenue.
> ■Kent Hehr (Alberta) - Veterans Affairs, and Associate Minister of National Defence.
> ■Catherine McKenna (Ontario) - Environment and Climate Change.
> ■Harjit Sajjan (B.C.) - National Defence.
> ■MaryAnn Mihychuck (Manitoba) - Employment Workforce Development and Labour.
> ■Amarjeet Sohi (Alberta) - Infrastructure and Communities.
> ■Maryam Monsef (Ontario) - Democratic Institutions.
> ■Carla Qualtrough (B.C.) - Sport, and Persons with Disabilities.
> ■Hunter Tootoo (Nunavut) - Fisheries and Oceans, and Canadian Coastguard.
> ■Kirsty Duncan (Ontario) - Science.
> ■Patricia Hajdu (Ontario) - Status of Women.
> ■Bardish Chagger (Ontario) - Small Business and Tourism.
> 
> 
> Map shows the regional distribution of ministers in the cabinet of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. (CBC)
> 
> Ref: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/full-list-of-justin-trudeau-s-cabinet-1.3300699



All things considered - this line up could give the Tories 8 years to consider their options.

If the LPC acts true to form and "Governs from the Right" - despite the shiny pony - this presents a good, middle of the road government with some solid credentials.


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## Kirkhill

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Notwithstanding his personal qualities, which, since I do not know him, I am happy to agree are many and exemplary, I fail to see how he is qualified, as a reserve LCol or as a police detective, to _direct and manage_ one of the largest, most complex and biggest spending departments in government and one which has a regular, sad but noteworthy habit of tripping over its own dick.
> 
> There's nothing about a military career that especially suits one to be MND: Brooke Claxton, one of the better ones, was a Battery Sergeant Major in the First World War, but he was a very good defence minister because:
> 
> 1. He was a skilled and veteran politician who had the confidence of his prime minister, St Lauren; and
> 
> 2. He was immune to the blandishments of his admirals, generals and civil servants ~ perhaps because he, not they, "ran" the department, for his, not their, purposes.
> 
> I also think the Gordon O'Connor was a good MND in part because of his recent military experience. He was a retired BGen, retired from NDHQ, who knew how the "office politics" worked and he was mightily unimpressed with the CDS of the day. He got what he wanted because he knew how to work with and within cabinet and how to push and pull all the levers in NDHQ.
> 
> Minister Sajjan's résumé is pretty light on high level management, which is what a MND does.
> 
> He may be, I'm sure he is, an estimable man, but I think he's a _token_ choice for MND and I fear that DND will not do well, in the political _centre_ (PMO, PCO, Finance and Treasury Board) with a _rookie_ at the helm.



ER:

We have had civilians and soldiers, officers and NCMs, men and women, as MND.  I can't think of any situation where the background was a reliable predictor of performance.

I think we just have to wait for the targets to start popping up downrange, when and as.....


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## Remius

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> All things considered - this line up could give the Tories 8 years to consider their options.
> 
> If the LPC acts true to form and "Governs from the Right" - despite the shiny pony - this presents a good, middle of the road government with some solid credentials.



I agree with you on this. It looks like a very solid line up.  We'll see if it holds.


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## OldSolduer

I would like to think the new MND would know the ROE before he engages with his fellow Parlimentarians.

It's a different battlefield.


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## brihard

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> I would like to think the new MND would know the ROE before he engages with his fellow Parlimentarians.
> 
> It's a different battlefield.



It certainly is. I think he'll have the smarts to observe and adapt.


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## OldSolduer

Brihard said:
			
		

> It certainly is. I think he'll have the smarts to observe and adapt.



Plus the beard. THAT alone will stop a lot of lace knicker folks from espousing "good ideas"


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## CountDC

So we have it done, we have a new minister that isn't Leslie, the question now is

Where's my pay increase?


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## Dissident

I am cautiously optimistic. As a reserve chauvinist, this makes me tremendously happy. Never mind that I always had a soft spot for the BCR.


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## dapaterson

CountDC said:
			
		

> So we have it done, we have a new minister that isn't Leslie, the question now is
> 
> Where's my pay increase?



As always, the answer will probably be "Once the public service settles theirs".


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Brihard said:
			
		

> It certainly is. I think he'll have the smarts to observe and adapt.



Actually, Isn't the B.C.R. a reconnaissance unit? Isn't there unofficial by-line: "Improvise, adapt, overcome"?  

Personally I tend to agree that first, we should let the gentleman deal with some upcoming problem and juge him on his record then. I don't know him and have no reason to have anything against him at this point.

He hasn't got enough "management" experience ! Every minister is there to "manage" a department. And where it comes to managing a government department, private sector experience is irrelevant and ill prepares you anyway. He has been exposed to public sector management (police force and DND) for most of his life and probably knows more about that than his "private' sector colleagues, who will have a steep learning curve. If he is smart - and everything I read about him so far seems to indicate that he is - and remembers that he is there to manage the department of defence (the civil servants), not to run the military operations (job o the uniformed personnel), he should do fine. 

I wish him well.


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## jollyjacktar

I was wondering how quickly they might settle with the PS if only to keep them sweet natured and pay back for their support.


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## Edward Campbell

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> All things considered - this line up could give the Tories 8 years to consider their options.
> 
> If the LPC acts true to form and "Governs from the Right" - despite the shiny pony - this presents a good, middle of the road government with some solid credentials.




There are a lot of _rookies_ in there, some in very key portfolios. _Rookies_ are prone to making mistakes ... which leads to more and more centralized _management_ from the PMO.

I agree there are some "solid credential," there are also a few _flakes_, in my opinion, and a couple of _tokens_, too.


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## Lumber

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I agree there are some "solid credential," there are also a few _flakes_, in my opinion, and a couple of _tokens_, too.



go on...


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## PuckChaser

Lumber said:
			
		

> go on...


They made someone who gave a TED talk against globalization the minister for international trade.


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## Haggis

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Every minister is there to "manage" a department.



It's good that you used quotations in that sentence because removing them would also remove the truth that the Ministers do not really manage anything.  More, they represent their departments to the Cabinet and PMO.  Public servants - mandarins - manage the departments and if things don't go their way (i.e. the Ministers actually attempt to run things) the mandarins can quickly, quietly and anonymously throw their Minister under the bus.



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> And where it comes to managing a government department, private sector experience is irrelevant and ill prepares you anyway.



If the CDS and DM brief him properly, keep him informed and ride herd over their respective parts of the Defence portfolio, he may survive contact with Ottawa politics.



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> He has been exposed to public sector management (police force and DND) for most of his life and probably knows more about that than his "private' sector colleagues, who will have a steep learning curve.



His experience to date has also exposed him to both the uniformed machine and the unionized machine.  He is decorated and experienced and has achieved a measure of success in both careers.  This means that his former operational and political masters have seen him fit to lead.  This may well position him better than most to succeed as MND.



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I wish him well.



As do I.


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## observor 69

Odds are he will be an improvement compared to the place holder Jason Kenny .


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## McG

Haggis said:
			
		

> If the CDS and DM brief him properly, keep him informed and ride herd over their respective parts of the Defence portfolio, he may survive contact with Ottawa politics.


I wonder if his in-brief will be similar to the last guy's.


> *National Defence gave minister more info on public opinion research than on ISIS operation, NATO*
> *February 2015 transition books detail public polling results, media requests*.
> Marie-Danielle Smith
> Embassy News
> 28 Oct 2015
> 
> A new Liberal defence minister will inherit a self-conscious department that seems more than a little concerned about how it's perceved by the public.
> 
> When Jason Kenney took over as national defence minister in February 2015, he was briefed with a thicker stack of papers about public opinion and media operations than about the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, the North American Aerospace Defense Command, Operation Reassurance and Operation Impact combined.
> 
> Embassy obtained the transition books for Mr. Kenney through an access to information request. Similar documents may be provided to a new minister when prime minister-designate Justin Trudeau names his Cabinet Nov. 4.
> 
> In a book about “Key Strategic Issues,” about 70 pages long, there are 17 pages worth of public opinion and media analysis, complete with graphs tracking Canadians’ perceptions of the department over years of polling data.
> 
> Conversely, only two pages of the document appear to be entirely devoted to Operation Reassurance in Central and Eastern Europe, two pages to Operation Impact in Iraq and Syria, four to NATO and two to NORAD.
> 
> More Canadians think CAF doing 'poor job' caring for returned soldiers
> 
> “Public opinion research is an important engagement activity to assess how Canadians view the Canadian Armed Forces," the document told the incoming minister. "It is also an evaluation of our public affairs activities by allowing us to gauge what is resonating with Canadians."
> 
> Public perceptions of the CAF’s care of returning soldiers declined over the past five years. The department and its counterpart, Veterans Affairs, was criticized for cuts to services and closures of Veterans Affairs offices under the tenure of outgoing Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
> 
> Though the percentage of people who felt the CAF was doing a “good job” taking care of veterans stayed static at 51 per cent, the percentage who said it was doing a “poor job” increased from 20 per cent in 2010 to 38 per cent in 2014.
> 
> Surveys also found that general awareness of the CAF was at a 10-year low in 2014. Only 34 per cent of those surveyed had recently seen, read or heard something about the CAF, versus a high of 74 per cent in 2006, the year that Mr. Harper was first elected.
> 
> Most Canadians apparently get information about the CAF from television or the internet, and to a lesser extent daily newspapers and radio.
> 
> In 2014, 89 per cent had strongly positive or somewhat positive impressions of CAF members, versus 88 per cent in 2005 and 78 per cent in 1999.
> 
> The document did not include information about how much the public opinion surveys cost the department.
> 
> Department tracking media outlets, journalists
> 
> A page offering an overview of the “public environment” warns of a “24/7 instantaneous news cycle expedited by social media” with DND and the Canadian Armed Forces “under constant public and media scrutiny.”
> 
> The defence minister is provided, in these first few briefing books, with detailed tracking of media requests, down to full-page bar graphs showing the most frequent publications and the most frequent individual reporters that contact the department.
> 
> About 3,500 media requests were received in 2014. That’s close to 14 per workday, or close to one every 30 minutes, the document adds in bolded text. It's also up from the 2,796 media queries the department said it received in the 2012-13 fiscal year.
> 
> A pie chart illustrates that journalists’ deadlines were met 94 per cent of the time. “Spikes in interest typically occur when a significant event occurs,” the document explains.
> 
> Issues that caused spikes in media coverage last year included: the Oct. 22 attack on the National War Memorial and Parliament Hill that killed Corporal Nathan Cirillo; an attack two days earlier that killed Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent in Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu; Operation Impact, including Canada’s bombing mission against ISIS; military procurement; and defence spending.
> 
> The deaths of Cpl. Cirillo and W.O. Vincent garnered 4,580 mentions in print and broadcast media combined, while Operation Impact was mentioned 1,434 times. Procurement was mentioned 540 times, defence spending 453 times, the mission in Ukraine 375 times, mental health issues for military members 313 times, military justice issues 303 times.
> 
> On social media, the deaths were mentioned nearly 140,000 times, according to the DND transition book, while Remembrance Day was mentioned 74,870 times and Operation Impact 23,767 times.
> 
> Parliament not mentioned in brief on decision-making
> 
> Another transition book, titled “Who We Are and How We Work,” provided a broader departmental overview to the new minister of national defence.
> 
> Just shy of 70 pages, it includes information about ongoing Canadian Armed Forces operations, including all international engagements. It also gave the incoming minister a handy guide to key department officials, complete with photos and biographies.
> 
> A brief on strategic decision-making acknowledges that a prime minister or defence minister can make unilateral decisions on defence policy.
> 
> Cabinet does not need to sit together as a whole for major decisions to be made, the document explains.
> 
> “In some cases, a deployment decision will be made by a cabinet committee and, in others by the prime minister, or by the minister of national defence alone, or in conjunction with the minister of foreign affairs,” the transition book states.
> 
> This section on military decision-making does not mention Canada’s elected Parliament.
> 
> While the government is not legally or constitutionally required to seek Parliamentary approval for military deployments, it was the political choice of the Harper government to do so on several occasions.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I seriously doubt that Embassy got the complete briefing books of minister Kenny on an access to information request.

I suspect that most of the minister's briefing on the more military side of things is classified and therefore in a different briefing book and neither released nor even acknowledged as existing in an answer to a request for access to information.


----------



## Pieman

I worked alongside LCol.  Sajjan overseas for a bit. He is sharp and thinks outside the box. He pushed hard to start looking at the Taliban as a Mafia rather than an insurgency creating networks of linking one person to another through money exchange. It was an interesting perspective and likely came from his work police work in gangs. He may be a reservist but has lots of time overseas working directly with General Vance. They know each other well and that can only strengthen the government - military relationship. I suspect he will be an interesting MND.


----------



## FSTO

I do not know the man at all, but being a reservist he may cast a healthy critical eye at the way the department does its business and may have a more intuitive look at cutting (or redirecting) the right waste and not the most convenient waste.


----------



## Kirkhill

Pieman said:
			
		

> I worked alongside LCol.  Sajjan overseas for a bit. He is sharp and thinks outside the box. He pushed hard to start looking at the Taliban as a Mafia rather than an insurgency creating networks of linking one person to another through money exchange. It was an interesting perspective and likely came from his work police work in gangs. He may be a reservist but has lots of time overseas working directly with General Vance. They know each other well and that can only strengthen the government - military relationship. I suspect he will be an interesting MND.




More work for those who must not be photographed?


----------



## Cloud Cover

Pieman said:
			
		

> I worked alongside LCol.  Sajjan overseas for a bit. He is sharp and thinks outside the box. He pushed hard to start looking at the Taliban as a Mafia rather than an insurgency creating networks of linking one person to another through money exchange. It was an interesting perspective and likely came from his work police work in gangs. He may be a reservist but has lots of time overseas working directly with General Vance. They know each other well and that can only strengthen the government - military relationship. I suspect he will be an interesting MND.



That's great because there is no bigger mafia in Canada than NDHQ. 

As for the rest of the Cabinet, all I can say is that when you have a Prime Minister that is good for nothing, you had better have a Cabinet that is good at many things.  Time will tell. 
I applaud the new MND, wish him well and hope that he can get things moving in the right direction. By all accounts, he is a no BS, "get things done" copper that successfully worked his job from a solid plan that he took a crucial role in developing.   I think anyone trying to pass a load of crap past him is going to be shown the door (in a polite but firm way).


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Just ran into a BCR Major at my daughters karate class, he is beaming with pride and quite pleased that I mentioned the appointment.


----------



## Pieman

> More work for those who must not be photographed?



I suspect that depends what Trudeau wants to accomplish...which I don't really know what his goals are.


----------



## PuckChaser

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> More work for those who must not be photographed?


He's already said he wants to beef up the training mission, and that's who's doing it. Time will tell with everything, I suppose.


----------



## YZT580

question for those who know:  will he dig his heels in over something he believes in and as an mp does he still retain his reserve officer status or does he have to give that up?


----------



## TCBF

Inspir said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see what the relationship between the new MND and the CDS will be like. I know that there was some tension between Brigadier-General (Ret'd) O'Connor and General (Ret'd) Hillier.



- When Gen Vance commanded the Canadian task force in Afg  in 2009, LCol Sajjan was on his staff.


----------



## McG

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> More work for those who must not be photographed?


It would be less sexy than that.  It would be more work for those who nobody wants to photograph ... forensic accountants in suits.


----------



## dapaterson

You have no idea how badass Trudeau's Defence Minister really is

You can read then-BGen Fraser's 2006 letter of appreciation to the Vancouver Police Department for then-Major Sajjan's work in Afghanistan.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I wonder if after his stint at NDHQ he will prefer working with the Taliban?  8)


----------



## Edward Campbell

YZT580 said:
			
		

> question for those who know:  will he dig his heels in over something he believes in and _as an mp does he still retain his reserve officer status or does he have to give that up?_




There is nothing in our (Westminster) parliamentary tradition that says that members, even ministers, must resign their commissions. Our (British and Canadian) parliamentary histories show several members who served as MPs while, also, serving as soldiers, sometimes serving as MPs even while 'away' on operations. In fact, the House of Commons' own rules say that (my _emphasis_ added) "...those days on which a Member was absent due to illness, _a military commitment_, the adjournment of the House or because the Member was on “public or official business”, are considered days of attendance."


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There is nothing in our (Westminster) parliamentary tradition that says that members, even ministers, must resign their commissions. Our (British and Canadian) parliamentary histories show several members who served as MPs while, also, serving as soldiers, sometimes serving as MPs even while 'away' on operations. In fact, the House of Commons' own rules say that (my _emphasis_ added) "...those days on which a Member was absent due to illness, _a military commitment_, the adjournment of the House or because the Member was on “public or official business”, are considered days of attendance."


As someone with a strong hand in making/driving military policy, though, there must be some rules governing some of his military _appointments/jobs_, no?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

There is a long tradition of reservists serving as Members of Parliament or of a provincial Assembly. As a general rule, they request and are granted transfer to the supplementary list for the duration. I am unaware of any MP/MPA that continued active reserve service while siting, however.

In his case, however, there is the added fact that he is now the Minister of Defence. So there are potential implications with regards to Conflict of Interests rules. How would he act if, for instance, a plan to reorganize the militia was presented to him and affected, or not, the B.C.R.? In his case, he will be around 50 by the time the next election comes around, so perhaps retiring (if he hasn't done so already, as I see in one bio that his military service is listed as ending in 2014) would be a smart move. 

PS: I don't think anyone suggested resigning commission. You can choose to retire, or be honourably released from the CF without having to "resign" your commission.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> PS: I don't think anyone suggested resigning commission.


Neither was I, but you're right about potential conflict of interest.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> There is a long tradition of reservists serving as Members of Parliament or of a provincial Assembly. As a general rule, they request and are granted transfer to the supplementary list for the duration. _I am unaware of any MP/MPA that continued active reserve service while siting, however._
> 
> In his case, however, there is the added fact that he is now the Minister of Defence. So there are potential implications with regards to Conflict of Interests rules. How would he act if, for instance, a plan to reorganize the militia was presented to him and affected, or not, the B.C.R.? In his case, he will be around 50 by the time the next election comes around, so perhaps retiring (if he hasn't done so already, as I see in one bio that his military service is listed as ending in 2014) would be a smart move.
> 
> PS: I don't think anyone suggested resigning commission. You can choose to retire, or be honourably released from the CF without having to "resign" your commission.




It has happened in Canada, in the past. It was far more common in the UK, and some MPs were killed in action while still, nominally, sitting in the House.

Your point about the appearance of a conflict of interest is very well taken.


----------



## opcougar

I knew it was only a matter of time before this came up   This is bound to open up the can-o-worm that is spec pay  :witch:



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> So we have it done, we have a new minister that isn't Leslie, the question now is
> 
> *Where's my pay increase?*


----------



## dangerboy

opcougar said:
			
		

> I knew it was only a matter of time before this came up   This is bound to open up the can-o-worm that is spec pay  :witch:



Maybe I am missing something but how is the appointment of a Minister of Defence opening a debate about spec pay?  Just confussed.


----------



## opcougar

This is one of those situations that solidifies the sayin..."be nice to people on your way up, as you might meet them on your way down". Hypothetically speaking, just imagine a scenario when a then boss was nasty to a member of their staff, and the staff then later becomes a top dog. Talk about the awkwardness that will ensue



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> - When Gen Vance commanded the Canadian task force in Afg  in 2009, LCol Sajjan was on his staff.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

opcougar said:
			
		

> This is one of those situations that solidifies the sayin..."be nice to people on your way up, as you might meet them on your way down". Hypothetically speaking, just imagine a scenario when a then boss was nasty to a member of their staff, and the staff then later becomes a top dog. Talk about the awkwardness that will ensue



We got that, we are just unclear on how that translate into an issue of spec pay.

And if you think that is bad: Melanie Joly is now at Heritage, where she oversees the CBC ... where she interned in a younger incarnation. Hope they were very nice to their intern (but CBC being a crusty civil service type of organization, I have my doubt that interns are treated as little more than the lowest form of life).   ;D


----------



## dapaterson

Sometimes poster on army.ca James Cudmore shared this on twitter, comparing the new MND to some of his predecessors.

https://mobile.twitter.com/cudmoreCBC/status/662037623825932288/photo/1

To be fair, O'Connor (top right) was an armoured officer; I guess they couldn't find a photo of him in olive drab by a Leopard.


(EDIT: fixing a mis-typed acronym)


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> It has happened in Canada, in the past. It was far more common in the UK, and some MPs were killed in action while still, nominally, sitting in the House.


Along those lines, this, as of a little more than three weeks ago:


> .... Sajjan is still looking into the legalities behind running for office as a reservist. *He offered his resignation but was asked to stay on as his skillset was valuable to the CAF*.
> 
> “If we all of a sudden send soldiers in harm’s way and my skills are absolutely needed for the mission, I’d be happy to take a leave of absence from being a member of parliament and share the risk with the other members of CAF,” noted Sajjan.


----------



## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Along those lines, this, as of a little more than three weeks ago:



Very interesting.

He Who Must Not Be Named has an article within the past hour looking into exactly this; he's promised an update once he hears back from the department.

My WAG is Sajjan will go Supp Res.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> In his case, however, there is the added fact that he is now the Minister of Defence. So there are potential implications with regards to Conflict of Interests rules. . . .



I fail to see how Minister Sajjan would violate "Conflict of Interest rules" should one of his future decisions materially affect his former(?) regiment.  While I didn't find the definition of an "interest" strictly specified in any of the pertaining legislation, the "Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons" clearly identifies that what they are talking about is personal economic benefit.  While a decision made by the minister may benefit (or disadvantage) a specific unit or element of the CF, unless that minister (or his family) makes a financial gain it is not a conflict of interest.  It may be bad optics or bad politics but it is unlikely against the law.

Now, if LCol (Ret'd) Sajjan transferred to the Supp Res rather than released from the CF, he would be subject to the Code of Service Discipline on those days that he is in his office at Fort Fumble on the Rideau (defence property).  Though I do not expect Minister Sajjan's conduct to be such that, while in his office (or elsewhere in the building), there would be grounds to charge him (_or to find someone foolhardy enough to lay such_) with a service offence, it does make for an interesting discussion.


----------



## Edward Campbell

The conflict of interest regulations deal with both _real_ and _perceived_ conflicts ... the latter can be especially troublesome in politics.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The conflict of interest regulations deal with both _real_ and _perceived_ conflicts ... the latter can be especially troublesome in politics.


Even the Code talks about "real or apparent conflicts of interests".


----------



## Kirkhill

So, Supp List or not....does Lt Col Singh salute the CDS or does the CDS salute the Right Honourable Mr. Singh?

And who signs the expense checks?


----------



## OldSolduer

Colin P said:
			
		

> I wonder if after his stint at NDHQ he will prefer working with the Taliban?  8)



Well done sir. That made me smile!

Now which Dunderhead from 39 Bde send him his "you're NES  and we'll release you" letter?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> So, Supp List or not....does Lt Col Singh salute the CDS or does the CDS salute the Right Honourable Mr. Singh?



Neither. First of all, I very much doubt the Minister will show up dressed in uniform  :

Second of all, a member of the Sup res, when just happening to be on DND property is subject to the Code of Service Discipline, but unless out on a class A, B or class C service, is not subject to any other regulations and obligations, including ceremonial ones such as salutes (in fact, unless out on such service, the member should not be in uniform at any time). A member of the Sup.Res is only a civilian that happens to be able to avail him/herself of class A, B an C  reserve service opportunities or can be recalled to service by the CDS. 

As for the CDS: The MND does not rate a salute. He is a civilian.


----------



## Mick

Interestingly, the MND's bio on the DND website refers to him as "a retired Lieutenant-Colonel in the Canadian Armed Forces and a combat veteran."

If the minister is, in fact, now in the Supp Res, would he actually be subject to the CSD while on DND property (despite the fact that he is occupying a civilian position and fulfilling a non-military role)?

As a member of the Supp Res myself, am I somehow subject to the CSD if I'm delivering a pizza to Edmonton Garrison?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Once you step on Garison ground, yes.

But if he is referred to as "retired", then he did not remain on Supp. Res. but terminated his service altogether.

I was instructed when I went on Supp. Res. that only after my 10 years on the list came to an end would I be allowed to officially call myself "retired". My termination letter 10 years later confirming my release - service completed or no longer required - also confirmed that fact.


----------



## StarFury

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> As for the CDS: The MND does not rate a salute. He is a civilian.



I don't believe that you're correct on this point; the MDN is, actually, specifically allocated compliments per the 201.



			
				A-PD-201-000/PT-000; page 1-2-1 said:
			
		

> *SECTION 2
> 
> COMPLIMENTS
> 
> GENERAL*
> 
> 1. Compliments are formal marks of respect
> and courtesy, i.e., salutes.
> 
> 2. The military salute is a traditional demonstration
> of trust and respect. Although the method of
> saluting varies with circumstances, the paying of
> compliments is a fundamental requirement that is
> indispensable to service discipline.
> 
> 3. *In Canada, military compliments are only paid
> to* the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of
> the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign
> heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; *the
> Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence;*
> lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers.
> Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased
> service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to
> 23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 et 41.


----------



## brihard

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Well done sir. That made me smile!
> 
> Now which Dunderhead from 39 Bde send him his "you're NES  and we'll release you" letter?



I wouldn't doubt it. One of my section mates received one while we were in Kandahar, forwarded in a care package from his mom.

He cut out the mailing address from his mom's parcle, scribbled some choice and impolitic words, and mailed it back to the unit Adjt. Nothing further was heard.


----------



## opcougar

I choked on my Earl Grey reading this in BOLD   ;D Who will be the superior officer laying the charge....PM JT?



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I fail to see how Minister Sajjan would violate "Conflict of Interest rules" should one of his future decisions materially affect his former(?) regiment.  While I didn't find the definition of an "interest" strictly specified in any of the pertaining legislation, the "Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons" clearly identifies that what they are talking about is personal economic benefit.  While a decision made by the minister may benefit (or disadvantage) a specific unit or element of the CF, unless that minister (or his family) makes a financial gain it is not a conflict of interest.  It may be bad optics or bad politics but it is unlikely against the law.
> 
> Now, if LCol (Ret'd) Sajjan transferred to the Supp Res rather than released from the CF, he would be subject to the Code of Service Discipline on those days that he is in his office at Fort Fumble on the Rideau (defence property).  Though I do not expect Minister Sajjan's conduct to be such that, while in his office (or elsewhere in the building), there would be grounds to charge him (_or *to find someone foolhardy enough to lay such*_) with a service offence, it does make for an interesting discussion.


----------



## opcougar

That will make sense and goes with the ...."it's the rank and not the person that we acknowledge". In this case, the "rank" is the MND. No doubt the MND has influence in who to have as CDS



			
				StarFury said:
			
		

> I don't believe that you're correct on this point; the MDN is, actually, specifically allocated compliments per the 201.


----------



## OldSolduer

StarFury said:
			
		

> I don't believe that you're correct on this point; the MDN is, actually, specifically allocated compliments per the 201.



You are in fact correct.


----------



## Scoobs

As for salutations, I suspect that it is similar to the situation when Prince Harry or Prince William were in the British military.  While in uniform and acting as Commissioned Officers, they had to salute superior officers (thereby showing respect to the Crown, i.e. their grandmother), but when acting as a member of the Royal Family, they are in fact the ones receiving the salute.


----------



## GK .Dundas

Colin P said:
			
		

> I wonder if after his stint at NDHQ he will prefer working with the Taliban?  8)


 Well at least the ethical and intellectual standards will be higher.


----------



## opcougar

Ouch.....Cruel  :facepalm:



			
				GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> Well at least the ethical and intellectual standards will be higher.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

mick said:
			
		

> Interestingly, the MND's bio on the DND website refers to him as "a retired Lieutenant-Colonel in the Canadian Armed Forces and a combat veteran."
> 
> If the minister is, in fact, now in the Supp Res, would he actually be subject to the CSD while on DND property (despite the fact that he is occupying a civilian position and fulfilling a non-military role)?
> 
> As a member of the Supp Res myself, am I somehow subject to the CSD if I'm delivering a pizza to Edmonton Garrison?



IIRC, the Supp Ready Reserve is officially part of the Reserve Force (a sub-component by definition?).

From QR & O, Vol 1:

1.03 - PERSONS SUBJECT TO QR&O

(1) Unless the context otherwise requires, and subject to article 1.24 (Regulations and Orders - General), QR&O and all orders and instructions issued to the Canadian Forces under authority of the National Defence Act, apply to:
a.the Regular Force;
b.the Special Force;
c.the Reserve Force when subject to the Code of Service Discipline; and
d.unless the Minister otherwise directs, any person not mentioned in subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) if the person is subject to the Code of Service Discipline.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member who becomes a prisoner of war continues to be subject to QR&O and all orders and instructions issued to the Canadian Forces under authority of the National Defence Act.

(G)

And from Qr & O, Vol 2:

Section 1 – Jurisdiction - Persons

102.01 – PERSONS SUBJECT TO THE CODE OF SERVICE DISCIPLINE

Section 60 of the National Defence Act provides:

"60. (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:
a.an officer or non-commissioned member of the regular force;
b.an officer or non-commissioned member of the special force;
c.an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is 

i.undergoing drill or training, whether in uniform or not,
ii.in uniform,
iii.on duty,
iv.[Repealed, S.C. 1998, c. 35, s. 19],
v.called out under Part VI in aid of the civil power,
vi.called out on service,
vii.placed on active service,
viii.in or on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft of the Canadian Forces or in or on any defence establishment or work for defence,
ix.serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, or
x.present, whether in uniform or not, at any drill or training of a unit or other element of the Canadian Forces;

d.subject to such exceptions, adaptations and modifications as the Governor in Council may by regulations prescribe, a person who, pursuant to law or pursuant to an agreement between Canada and the state in whose armed forces the person is serving, is attached or seconded as an officer or non-commissioned member to the Canadian Forces;
e.a person, not otherwise subject to the Code of Service Discipline, who is serving in the position of an officer or non-commissioned member of any force raised and maintained outside Canada by Her Majesty in right of Canada and commanded by an officer of the Canadian Forces;
f.a person, not otherwise subject to the Code of Service Discipline, who accompanies any unit or other element of the Canadian Forces that is on service or active service in any place;
g.subject to such exceptions, adaptations and modifications as the Governor in Council may by regulations prescribe, a person attending an institution established under section 47;
h.an alleged spy for the enemy;
i.a person, not otherwise subject to the Code of Service Discipline, who, in respect of any service offence committed or alleged to have been committed by the person, is in civil custody or in service custody; and
j.a person, not otherwise subject to the Code of Service Discipline, while serving with the Canadian Forces under an engagement with the Minister whereby the person agreed to be subject to that Code.


----------



## dapaterson

The Supp Ready Reserve and Supp Holding Reserve were merged into a single Supp Res about 15 years ago.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Glad to see I am with the times.   ;D


----------



## dapaterson

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Glad to see I am with the times.   ;D



Tell us some more stories about the SMG and FN


----------



## Blackadder1916

opcougar said:
			
		

> I choked on my Earl Grey reading this in BOLD   ;D Who will be the superior officer laying the charge....PM JT?



Since the Prime Minister has no authority under the CSD _(and in fact is not mentioned in the NDA)_ - No.

The authority to lay charges is specified in the CSD.



> 107.02 – AUTHORITY TO LAY CHARGES
> 
> The following persons may lay charges under the Code of Service Discipline:
> 
> a.  a commanding officer;
> b.  an officer or non-commissioned member authorized by a commanding officer to lay charges; and
> c.  a member of the military police assigned to investigative duties with the Canadian Forces National Investigation Service.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Tell us some more stories about the SMG and FN



ugh.  I am that old now I guess...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The authority to lay charges is specified in the CSD.



Odd, I would have thought (I assumed?) it also included 'an officer commanding a command'.


----------



## AmmoTech90

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Odd, I would have thought (I assumed?) it also included 'an officer commanding a command'.



Probably because at the highest level it is an Officer Commanding a Command presiding at the Summary Trial.  If the Officer Commanding a Command laid the charges, who would preside?  Without going into the books and checking I do not believe it can be the same person.

Edit: they can, but normally shouldn't. They could also pass it to another OCC, but that could be awkward.

Edit2: note it might be better to say superior commander rather than OCC.


----------



## CountDC

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Tell us some more stories about the SMG and FN



The SMG has a blow back action bolt and was a right side fire weapon only.  If you were a lefty and carelessly fired from that side there is a good chance you now have burn scars from the hot casings thrown in your face and perhaps down your shirt.  It also pulled up and to the left when fired.

The FN required you to roll your cheek on it and hold correctly or end up with swollen cheeks/black eyes.  It also easily penetrated the brain buckets in use at the time as attested by one young officer who's helmet was "misplaced" on the target during a range shoot while in charge of the butt party.  It was also handy to shut up any new members that whined about carrying the tonka toy rifle on a hike.

Old but remember some things.


----------



## my72jeep

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ugh.  I am that old now I guess...


hell I served with the M151 MUTT, Iltis, and G wagon..........


----------



## The Bread Guy

my72jeep said:
			
		

> hell I served with the M151 MUTT, Iltis, and G wagon..........


Let's not forget this "man portable over short distances" wonder, then ....


----------



## Blackadder1916

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Odd, I would have thought (I assumed?) it also included 'an officer commanding a command'.



Anyone who has the powers of a commanding officer will be officially designated as having such powers, sometimes even if that pers does not have the title of "CO".  Perhaps it is possible that a superior commander may also have the powers of a commanding officer in certain circumstances.  This sounds like one of those questions that FJAG could best answer.

It's been a long time since I actually saw a CFOO, so my memory may be deficient.  The CFOO for every unit will indicate if the officer appointed to command said organization is designated a "commanding officer" and will (should?) also designate who is the next superior officer in matters of discipline.


----------



## CountDC

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Iltis,



Oh yeah - the new jeep.  Best thing about it was self recovery so easy.  Besides the bic pen ignition.


----------



## Haggis

Maybe the new MND could do some Class A days as an "extraneous NDHQ LCol without portfolio" when the house isn't sitting.

If he crafted ministerial direction cunningly enough, he could even task himself with something.


----------



## cupper

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Let's not forget this "man portable over short distances" wonder, then ....





			
				my72jeep said:
			
		

> hell I served with the M151 MUTT, Iltis, and G wagon..........



Damn. It's now official. I'm old.

Ahh memories of those sun baked days in Aldershot.


----------



## McG

Given his time in uniform, could the new MND be a long-time site member/lurker and maybe now reading this thread for its entertainment and amusment value?  ...

Hello Mr Sajjan!  Congratulations on your new job.


----------



## Kirkhill

cupper said:
			
		

> Damn. It's now official. I'm old.
> 
> Ahh memories of those sun baked days in Aldershot.



So glad that you guys upgraded your Anti-Armour and Support Weapons so that you don't need those things any more.

How do your new systems in the battalions compare?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Back on track, here's a well-timed documentary, both generally (about Afghanistan) and specifically (including a bit of the new Minister) ....


> Canada’s new ‘badass’ Minister of Defence, Harjit Sajjan of Vancouver South, will be featured in a HISTORY Channel multi-night documentary called War Story: Afghanistan from Monday, November 9 to November 11.
> 
> Sajjan was named Minister of Defence on Wednesday when Prime Minister Justin Trudeau officially took office, but photos of the ex-army Lieutenant-Colonel and Vancouver Police officer proving his first-hand military experience on the ground in Afghanistan took over as the top story of the day.
> 
> For the millions enraptured by Sajjan’s story, War Story: Afghanistan will offer a closer look at what happened on the battle ground and feature Sajjan’s work fighting against the Taliban during Operation Medusa. The six-part series will air on the HISTORY Channel over three nights from November 9 to 11 as part of the network’s Remembrance Day coverage.
> 
> “The hard-hitting series showcases the heroism, courage, and ups and downs of that long, difficult war. Vivid interviews and riveting, high-definition footage expose viewers to sniper action behind enemy lines, friendly fire casualties, suicide bombers, and all-out combat – including NATO’s largest-ever battle – against a determined and brutal enemy,” says HISTORY. “The soldiers also share the challenges of telling friend from foe in a hostile, confusing environment, and of the sacrifice and honour in bringing the wounded and dead home from a faraway conflict.” ....



Another interesting factoid:  he reportedly patented a gas mask/hood to wear with his beard.


----------



## my72jeep

MCG said:
			
		

> Given his time in uniform, could the new MND be a long-time site member/lurker and maybe now reading this thread for its entertainment and amusment value?  ...
> 
> Hello Mr Sajjan!  Congratulations on your new job.


Keener


----------



## civmick

The new Minister requested release on October 21, paperwork in process.
_*- removes link IAW site owner policy -*_

A former PM (and previously MND) weighed in earlier:
https://mobile.twitter.com/AKimCampbell/status/662401490317762560
https://mobile.twitter.com/AKimCampbell/status/662402145040203777


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Back on track, here's a well-timed documentary, both generally (about Afghanistan) and specifically (including a bit of the new Minister) ....
> Another interesting factoid:  he reportedly patented a gas mask/hood to wear with his beard.



Wouldn't India have already sorted out this Issue?


----------



## cupper

civmick said:
			
		

> The new Minister requested release on October 21, paperwork in process.
> _*- removes link IAW site owner policy -*_
> 
> A former PM (and previously MND) weighed in earlier:
> https://mobile.twitter.com/AKimCampbell/status/662401490317762560
> https://mobile.twitter.com/AKimCampbell/status/662402145040203777



Well, it looks like Campbell answered the question of charging authority. Since the GG is the Commander in Chief ...


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I hope Ms. Campbell was facetious. Civil control of the military is not a job of the MND, and it does not relate to administration of the institution, it relates to the decision to employ military force, i.e. the decision to send the Army to fight somewhere. In Canada, that control is effected by the GG in  counsel, which really means the PM, usually after consulting the Privy Counsel, which really means the  cabinet.

She also fails to understand that a reservist not out on class A, B or  C service is a civilian anyway, one of the reason we use the NES system to dispose of no shows, instead of charging them with being AWOL.

I am willing to bet his release will be one of the fastest processed one in a long time  :nod:


----------



## blackberet17

CountDC said:
			
		

> Oh yeah - the new jeep.  Best thing about it was self recovery so easy.  Besides the bic pen ignition.



ICYMI, you can use a pen to start a LUVW...some traditions can be passed on


----------



## The Bread Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I am willing to bet his release will be one of the fastest processed one in a long time  :nod:


At 381 days and counting as of this post, the wheels certainly seem to be grinding reasonably finely up to this point ....
16 days, and counting ....

_- poster edit for dopey misread of date -_


----------



## dapaterson

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> At 381 days and counting as of this post, the wheels certainly seem to be grinding reasonably finely up to this point ....



The request was submitted in October of 2015, not 2014, so it's only 16 days and counting.

Although given 39 CBG's inimical approach to administration, 381 would not be out of the ordinary...


----------



## Strike

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Wouldn't India have already sorted out this Issue?



Probably, but it would be for the model of equipment that India uses, which is probably different from what we issue.  His patent seems to match with Cdn issue equipment.


----------



## The Bread Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The request was submitted in October of 2015, not 2014, so it's only 16 days and counting.
> 
> Although given 39 CBG's inimical approach to administration, 381 would not be out of the ordinary...


DOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Thanks for straightening me out - and it's not even Monday  :facepalm:


----------



## The Bread Guy

This, from PCO, from the "who's doing what" memo ....


> .... The Honourable Kent Hehr, Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, will work closely with the Honourable Harjit Singh Sajjan, Minister of National Defence, *to ensure Canadian Forces members transition seamlessly to the programs and services of Veterans Affairs Canada*.


Fingers crossed ....

Also attached if link doesn't work.


----------



## Canuck_Jock

Congratulations and best of luck to Mr Sajjan on a tough job ahead. I don't wish to rain on your parade, but I think a note of caution should be struck. I get it that you were a good Reseve CO and Vancouver police constable, but MND is fundamentally different.

What counts would be having the experience of running a multi-million dollar worldwide enterprise which covers several differing types of operations on the land, sea and air (the size of each individual service would be considered a major corporation in its own right). The Forces operate with significant external oversight, legislative and legal, and is unable to generate its own budget. The business has a large workforce (90,000 f/t, 25,000 p/t) that is possibly the large single workforce in Canada; all work under differing terms and conditions and many have long term contracts.  The workforce is highly specialised and difficult to recruit, train and retain; in many cases, an employee will be with the firm up to several years before a profitable return of service is generated. 

Also not to be undervalued is experience in running a large government department, used to setting demanding strategic direction, reacting to events which require operational and a political deftness of touch but bearing in mind that no matter the decision someone will disagree with you. Someone who has to grasp the daily operating requirements along with a capital spend of billions of dollars over decades which, if got wrong, will damage operational capability - and our nation's security - for generations.

 I suppose the question is, if the Canadian Forces were a business searching for a Chief Executive, would Mr Sajjan have 'the right stuff' to even be shortlisted for interview?


----------



## blacktriangle

Meh, that's why we have the DM, CDS etc.


----------



## Kirkhill

What Spectrum said.

CEOs don't run for Parliament.


----------



## brihard

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> What Spectrum said.
> 
> CEOs don't run for Parliament.



Bill Morneau?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Brihard said:
			
		

> Bill Morneau?



Who will be very quickly advised by his DM that "You do not run the department. I do. Your job is policy. I execute."

And that is a hard lesson to accept for a CEO. Ministers are more akin to a "one-person" Board of Directors.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Who will be very quickly advised by his DM that "You do not run the department. I do. Your job is policy. I execute."
> 
> And that is a hard lesson to accept for a CEO. _Ministers are more akin to a "one-person" Board of Directors._




That's a very apt and admirably concise description, OGBD, and I'm sure you will not mind when I steal it.  :nod:


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

As I have told someone before ERC, I do not consider my  posts to be covered by copyright, so go right ahead  ;D.


----------



## Brad Sallows

We do not need a government of elites.  Anyone reasonably accomplished in any field of endeavour is suitable.


----------



## Kirkhill

It's funny how vocabulary works.

In the mechanical world a governor restricts or limits.  And that is all that it does.


----------



## opcougar

Doubt it....was probably preoccupied with the elections, with Twitter and Facebook being his more likely joints in the past months / year.

All these new ministers, anyone reckon they are all "clean" i.e. don't have things on social media that might come back to hunt them? 



			
				MCG said:
			
		

> Given his time in uniform, could the new MND be a long-time site member/lurker and maybe now reading this thread for its entertainment and amusment value?  ...
> 
> Hello Mr Sajjan!  Congratulations on your new job.


----------



## MarkOttawa

_Die Welt_ (Germany)!



> Ein Superspion wird Kanadas Verteidigungsminister
> 
> Harjit Sajjan ist der ungewöhnlichste Verteidigungsminister, den der Westen je hatte. Er ist nicht nur der erste Sikh in dem Amt. Er kämpfte in Afghanistan als eine Art Superspion gegen die Taliban...



Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Cloud Cover

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> This, from PCO, from the "who's doing what" memo ....Fingers crossed ....
> 
> Also attached if link doesn't work.



So is he the Minister of Defence or the Minister of Disarmament?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Who will be very quickly advised by his DM that "You do not run the department. I do. Your job is policy. I execute."
> 
> And that is a hard lesson to accept for a CEO. Ministers are more akin to a "one-person" Board of Directors.



I get the feeling that his response will be; "Please ensure my orders are executed promptly as per my policy" At first politely and then more firmly. He also has a lot of pointy end connections who will be able to advise him when things are not reaching that end.


----------



## dapaterson

Postmedia is reporting that ministerial mandate letters, traditionally kept secret, will be published.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/formerly-secret-federal-mandate-letters-to-be-open


----------



## Gunner98

Perhaps the MND can advise his fellow cabinet ministers on the appropriate location to wear their poppies, see Diane Lebouthillier, National Revenue (lady in white in attached photo from the article).


----------



## charlesm

Copyright Laws:


_*Articles by this reporter will not be published here, as per Site guidelines.*_

Loachman

This must be the fastest someone has been released from 39 CBG. Never have I seen it done in less than 4 months before.


----------



## opcougar

Could it be a trickery on the eyes from your angle i.e. it's actually on the left?



			
				Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Perhaps the MND can advise his fellow cabinet ministers on the appropriate location to wear their poppies, see Diane Lebouthillier, National Revenue (lady in white in attached photo from the article).


----------



## PuckChaser

I watched the swearing in, she was wearing it on the left.


----------



## opcougar

There you go....."objects in the mirror are closer than they appear" was in effect  ;D


----------



## PuckChaser

That was a typo, on my phone. It was on her right side (aka improper). Just is on the left side when she was face to camera.


----------



## jollyjacktar

At least she was wearing one.  I can well imagine there would have/could have been or maybe there are MP's who would not wear a poppy for all the wrong reasons.


----------



## dimsum

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> At least she was wearing one.  I can well imagine there would have/could have been or maybe there are MP's who would not wear a poppy for all the wrong reasons.



I'd like to think that over the past 10 years, public sentiment would force said MPs to wear one, if just for appearances.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I hate to break this bad news to you guys (and gals, if any), but those of us in the military or ex-service people are the only ones that have knowledge or are bound by the dress manual's rules for "proper" placement of the poppy. The CF Dress Manual is not general law of the land .

Civilian, like that minister are not bound by any rule with regards to how they choose to wear the poppies, nor on the time of the year to wear them. I think society expects them to wear them in a dignified manner in view of the meaning, but that is all. If civilians want to wear the poppy years round and on their back pocket, there is nothing "improper" about it and you ain't got nothing to complain about.


----------



## mariomike

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I hate to break this bad news to you guys (and gals, if any), but those of us in the military or ex-service people are the only ones that have knowledge or are bound by the dress manual's rules for "proper" placement of the poppy. The CF Dress Manual is not general law of the land .
> 
> Civilian, like that minister are not bound by any rule with regards to how they choose to wear the poppies, nor on the time of the year to wear them. I think society expects them to wear them in a dignified manner in view of the meaning, but that is all. If civilians want to wear the poppy years round and on their back pocket, there is nothing "improper" about it and you ain't got nothing to complain about.



7  pages of detailed discussion here,

The Wearing and Location of The Poppy- Uniform/Civilian  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/1746.0;nowap


----------



## JesseWZ

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I hate to break this bad news to you guys (and gals, if any), but those of us in the military or ex-service people are the only ones that have knowledge or are bound by the dress manual's rules for "proper" placement of the poppy. The CF Dress Manual is not general law of the land .
> 
> Civilian, like that minister are not bound by any rule with regards to how they choose to wear the poppies, nor on the time of the year to wear them. I think society expects them to wear them in a dignified manner in view of the meaning, but that is all. If civilians want to wear the poppy years round and on their back pocket, there is nothing "improper" about it and you ain't got nothing to complain about.



Amen.


----------



## opcougar

A woman buying something off me on Kijiji, was shocked to hear from me that it's remembrance day tomorrow, and not happy that she couldn't receive the item during the day  :


----------



## opcougar

> Canada's new defense minister, a decorated combat vet, has secured his release from the Canadian Forces, eliminating a quirky situation in which he would be overseeing generals who are technically his superiors.




https://news.vice.com/article/canadas-badass-defense-minister-has-been-released-from-the-military-and-now-he-can-order-generals-around


----------



## vonGarvin

"Now he can order generals around"

Not quite accurate. A quick glance at my commissioning scroll mentions the chain of command and HM The Queen, but not ministers...

But it does make a catchy headline...


----------



## Jarnhamar

Has the new MND actually seen combat?


----------



## Infanteer

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Has the new MND actually seen combat?



A friend of mine fondly recalls the last time seeing him was in a TIC in Panjwayi....


----------



## OldSolduer

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Has the new MND actually seen combat?



I do believe he has extensive experience in the Sandbox. There were some threads here and on other sites that detailed that.


----------



## RocketRichard

I do believe 3 tours in Afghanistan and one in Bosnia.


----------



## a_majoor

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> At least she was wearing one.  I can well imagine there would have/could have been or maybe there are MP's who would not wear a poppy for all the wrong reasons.



Amen to that. I always need to suppress the urge to throat punch people who advocate for wearing white poppies, for example...


----------



## mariomike

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I always need to suppress the urge to throat punch people who advocate for wearing white poppies, for example...



The good news is that, after tomorrow, the poppy debates can be put to rest for another year.   

Red/ Green/ White Poppies- Does The Colour Matter?- Merged  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/2531.0;nowap
8 pages.


----------



## McG

And with that, we can get this thread back on topic.


----------



## opcougar

Ah....you can ask the same about race, so apparently it does you see....to some people that lose sleep over it  :



			
				mariomike said:
			
		

> The good news is that, after tomorrow, the poppy debates can be put to rest for another year.
> 
> *Red/ Green/ White Poppies- Does The Colour Matter?*- Merged
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/2531.0;nowap
> 8 pages.


----------



## jollyjacktar

opcougar said:
			
		

> Ah....you can ask the same about race, so apparently it does you see....to some people that lose sleep over it  :



 :dunno:  you lost me there


----------



## opcougar

Try to read the posts again and you might just get my response. Poster said why does colour matter, and I inferred that unfortunately society tends to think it does....which is shameful in this day and age. BLUF....colour is still an issue within society be it with as it relates to poppies or humans 



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> :dunno:  you lost me there


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I think you are stretching the topic to suit your own agenda here.  The post was about poppies, not people.  BLUF, you are putting words into someone else's mouth.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Infanteer said:
			
		

> A friend of mine fondly recalls the last time seeing him was in a TIC in Panjwayi....



That's awesome, thanks!


----------



## CougarKing

The NCO behind this has not been named yet:

IAN/Yahoo News



> *Canada's Sikh minister Harjit Sajjan racially abused by soldier*
> IANS
> By Gurmukh Singh | IANS – 3 hours ago
> 
> Toronto, Nov 12 (IANS) Canada's newly appointed Sikh Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan has become the target of racist attacks by someone in his own armed forces.
> 
> *Reports said that a non-commissioned officer from the Canadian Forces Base at Valcartier near Quebec City targeted Sajjan in a racist comment on social media on November 5, just a day after Sajjan was sworn in as defence minister. The comment was later removed.*
> 
> The Globe quoted an armed forces spokesperson as saying that bullies have no place in the army.
> 
> "Racist attitudes are not compatible with military ethos and with effective military service. Any conduct that reflects such attitudes will not be tolerated.
> 
> "The institution is entirely committed to the principle of equality of all people and the dignity and worth of every human being", it said, and noted that "bullies have no place in the organisation".
> 
> The Toronto Star reported that the military's Chief Warrant Officer Kevin West sent an email to his troops on November 5, saying: "We have had an incident in which a high-ranking member of the military posted negative comments on a Facebook page about our minister.
> 
> "It's totally unacceptable. We already deal with conduct problems on a daily bases in our ranks and it's our duty, and that of our leaders, to put an end to it immediately. I was made aware of this incident and to say that I am mad is not the word."
> 
> *As per military rules, the offending officer can be relieved from the armed forces, suspended, put on probationary period or sent for counselling.*


----------



## GK .Dundas

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> The NCO behind this has not been named yet:
> 
> IAN/Yahoo News


 I'm hoping he's some sort of drunk I'd like think anyone that stupid couldn't make it to NCO rank.


----------



## RocketRichard

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> The NCO behind this has not been named yet:
> 
> IAN/Yahoo News



Someone is deep in it.  And well they should be.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> I'm hoping he's some sort of drunk I'd like think anyone that stupid couldn't make it to NCO rank.



You mean the _lofty_ rank of Cpl?   48 months and your required trade courses and that magic wand gets waved.

Remember, IAW QR & O, Vol 1, Ch 1 Art 1.02 "Definitions" _"non-commissioned officer" (sous-officier)means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal_;

Master Corporals hold the appointment of MCpl, but their rank remains that of Cpl (Art 3.08).

8)


----------



## jollyjacktar

That sound you hear is the needle going across somebody's career.   :facepalm:


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Personally, I would not sent the NCO to a suspension, counselling, probation or relieve him/her of duty.

No, I would arrange for the said NCO a nice private session with CWO West, preferably somewhere deep in the bowels of CARP or a similar place (I hear they have nice one at Valcartier already).


----------



## TCM621

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> I'm hoping he's some sort of drunk I'd like think anyone that stupid couldn't make it to NCO rank.


IIRC the email that was sent out said senior NCO.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> ....I would arrange for the said NCO a nice private session with CWO West The Minister ....


 >


----------



## Strike

Oh yes.  That's the problem with social media, is that people say things about others and never have to face the consequences.  Imagine the culprit meeting the subject of the comments face to face.  I would LOVE to see how he would react in that case.  Probably a serious case of 'cat got his tongue.'

 >


----------



## cphansen

NO definitely not the Minister.  His role is to keep the department straight.  

He should definitely not have to deal with an individual who attacked him.  

His subordinates should take care of discipline issues, which this definitely is.  Can you imagine the publicity attendant upon the minister dealing with a subordinate.  

I can just imagine the subordinate claiming it was a personal issue between the two of them and the minister was using his position to pick on him. Neither the minister or the CAF need the sort of nonsense this could devolve to.

Let CWO West or whoever is the responsible authority deal with this, and let him provide the necessary counselling. The end result of this should be a soldier who understands what the CAF's policy is and a sincere letter of apology to the Minister.

I don't post often but this seems to be going off the rails, right into the latrine, and at this time of year when we pause to consider the sacrifices that have been made for us by so many veterans.


----------



## opcougar

The Hydro one guy did it face to face didn't it? i.e. his stupid comment at Shauna Hunt from City Tv



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> Oh yes.  That's the problem with social media, is that people say things about others and never have to face the consequences.  Imagine the culprit meeting the subject of the comments face to face.  I would LOVE to see how he would react in that case.  Probably a serious case of 'cat got his tongue.'
> 
> >


----------



## Jarnhamar

I feel sorry for the new MND.  By all accounts he appears to have been a great officer and leader while in uniform. (did some research)

Unfortunately it seems like he's being turned into this months ice bucket challenge/rainbow profile picture/omg cecil the lion. The comments from people going gaga over him like he's this week's fad are obnoxious. I'll be glad when people move on to next week's thing.


----------



## Strike

SherH2A said:
			
		

> I don't post often but this seems to be going off the rails, right into the latrine, and at this time of year when we pause to consider the sacrifices that have been made for us by so many veterans.



I'd say it's pretty safe to say that most of us, as much as we'd like to see the minister confront this guy face to face, are smart enough to know it's not going to happen.

 :


----------



## little jim

Some people just don't learn. Found the comment below on the CBC site entitled the MND is a bada&& and why not to fear the Islamic State. (I am posting this not to start yet another reg/res thread but rather just to info there are idiots out there). I have no clue how to link the comments section but as a staff trained officer can cut n'paste with the best of them. 

BEGIN QUOTE
TORONTO SHADOW
@Mark Valdock 

An actual soldier you say Mark. Well not really, want to know some things about the new Minister? 

a. he broke Canadian Forces regulations by running for Political Office while still employed as a member of the CF. A law clearly known to every military member; 

b. while running for Office his website portrayed him as a full time member of the CF while in reality he was a Reservist. Yes his service is appreciated and he did step up to deploy three times, but the difference in commitment between a Regular Force member & Reservist is vast. Make no mistake, the difference is known to the Minister and that's why he didn't list himself as a Reservist but tried to paint himself as a full-time soldier. His campaign managers also tried to sell him as a high ranking Officer, a Lieutenant Colonel, again, he's a Reservist Lieutenant Colonel (LCol) , huge difference; 

c. his Order of Military Merit Medal (OMM) was played up. Every NCO in the CF knows this is a "gimme" medal handed to most Senior level Officers when one Officer simply writes up another Officer, and if he's lucky, he gets the medal. OMM medals and Member of Military Merit medals pale in comparison to medals of courage, valour, & bravery. 

While I'm certain Mr. Sajjan is a good guy and I appreciate his service, I see a lot of deliberate half truths in the way he sold himself to the public. Mr. Sajjan was a cop for 11 years & is now 44 years old. Meaning he did very little time in the CF & rose very quick through the ranks to LCol. How you ask??/ Because he was a Reservist and the comparison is not the same. Trust me, the public may not know the difference but amongst the Regular force everyone knows there's a big difference between the commitment and sacrifice of the Regular Force and the "Mo-Litia".« less

END QUOTE

Great quote - slams the MND, honours and awards system, reserves and the regs in one step.  (Note this is sarcasm, I would love it if those in the know could find the author and see if he is serving. Would make it better if he used a DND computer..)


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I like to use the words of a great retired RSM I had the privilege of serving under to speak to the "Reg/Res" debate.  Taken from an Armour Bulletin from back in the day.  Red box mine to highlight most important part (IMO).


----------



## The Bread Guy

little jim said:
			
		

> ....  His campaign managers also tried to sell him as a high ranking Officer, a Lieutenant Colonel, again, he's a Reservist Lieutenant Colonel (LCol) , huge difference; ....


Ah, the old "s/he's only a MILITIA (insert rank here) ...."  It only takes a few idiots in a huge crowd to keep that train steamed & chugging.



			
				little jim said:
			
		

> (Note this is sarcasm, I would love it if those in the know could find the author and see if he is serving. Would make it better if he used a DND computer..)


That would be funny.



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I like to use the words of a great retired RSM I had the privilege of serving under to speak to the "Reg/Res" debate.  Taken from an Armour Bulletin from back in the day.  Red box mine to highlight most important part (IMO).


Short, sweet but hugely relevant - thanks for sharing that piece.


----------



## Eaglelord17

opcougar said:
			
		

> The Hydro one guy did it face to face didn't it? i.e. his stupid comment at Shauna Hunt from City Tv



/Tangent
The Hydro one guy never actually said the comment your accusing him of, if your going to say someone did something please verify it is actually correct. All he did was defend the comment someone else made which is two different things entirely.

/Tangent over


----------



## George Wallace

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> /Tangent
> The Hydro one guy never actually said the comment your accusing him of, if your going to say someone did something please verify it is actually correct. All he did was defend the comment someone else made which is two different things entirely.
> 
> /Tangent over



Semantics.

In defending the statement, he was agreeing to it, and just as guilty for rewording what was said.  Whether he made the original statement or not, he was defending it; all on camera.


----------



## captloadie

Imagine that, racism rearing its ugly head in Valcartier again. I'm sure this isn't the only individual there who has been openly saying these things, just the only one dumb enough to post it online.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Sure! Go ahead Captloadie. Tar every Quebecer with the same brush and piss on them. Your own comment is not racist at all!

And of course, there was no racism and no "white supremacists" in the Airborne, nor is there any racism in any of the English Canadian units outside of Quebec. They are all  angels.

Until you can make such demonstration, I suggest you learn to shut your mouth.


----------



## captloadie

Umm, dial it back a bit. I was very specific to Valcartier, not the entire belle province. And the reason being is that base has a very recent history of CAF members belonging to known supremist groups and openly sharing their beliefs on the base.

And you are right, there are racists everywhere, not arguing that point. But when one particular area tends keep getting national attention, maybe its time to do something about it.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

If that is what you meant, you expressed yourself very poorly.

Your reference to Valcartier is not specific to saying "because it is Valcartier" but rather because it is at Valcartier, which any reasonable human being then interpret as a reference to the people there in particular, which everyone knows to be mostly French Canadians (or Quebecers, whichever you prefer).

Now, if you know something specific about some people at Valcartier, then report it through the proper channel to authorities so it can be dealt with appropriately. The last thing we need in Canada is another military scandal.

If you don't know anything specific and are just extrapolating and mouthing off because there was another event some months (actually I think it was more like a year) ago, then you don't know what you are talking about and your comment becomes tarring of all French Canadians there; and you are doing that in a public forum known to attract journalists, and in a specific thread they are almost certainly going to watch.

To rephrase the old joke: "never, ever, ever generalize".


----------



## jollyjacktar

To be fair to captloadie, OGBD, my last tour in the sandbox was Roto 7.  I trained and deployed with the folks from Valcartier.  I am not surprised as well that "someone" from there may have said something and I would also not be surprised if there was more than one person who shared this point of view.  

That being said, however, I would not be surprised if "someone else" from another base in this country shared this point of view.  Racism is everywhere, sadly.


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I would not be surprised if "someone else" from another base in this country shared this point of view.  Racism is everywhere, sadly.


Agreed 120%.


			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> To rephrase the old joke: "never, ever, ever generalize".


You're right, too.  I don't think it's racist, though, wondering "whazzup with _some_ folks @ Valcartier?", though, based on this and this in the past couple of weeks, though - the same way I'd say "whazzup in Shilo?" when I see this.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Well unfortunately, Captloadie's comment was not expressed as sadness to find such racism there or anywhere in the CAF, like yours is Jollyjacktar. It was more along the lines that "Hey! I'm not surprised knowing what a hot bed of racism that place is" type of comment.

Anyway, I think we should go back to topic: The Minister of  Defence himself.

Saw the out take on CBC yesterday where the reporter interviewing him in his office (was it Wendy?) tried to get him to commit on CF participation in the plan to bring 25000 refugee and the timing of withdrawal of the CF-18's before the details have been worked out. I thought he deported himself very well. I particularly liked the comments on ISIS not being a direct threat to Canada that cannot be handled by our security services.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I believe that he is the best man for the job that was available and I am confident he won't leave me disappointed.


----------



## blackberet17

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Well unfortunately, Captloadie's comment was not expressed as sadness to find such racism there or anywhere in the CAF, like yours is Jollyjacktar. It was more along the lines that "Hey! I'm not surprised knowing what a hot bed of racism that place is" type of comment.
> 
> Anyway, I think we should go back to topic: The Minister of  Defence himself.
> 
> Saw the out take on CBC yesterday where the reporter interviewing him in his office (was it Wendy?) tried to get him to commit on CF participation in the plan to bring 25000 refugee and the timing of withdrawal of the CF-18's before the details have been worked out. I thought he deported himself very well. I particularly liked the comments on ISIS not being a direct threat to Canada that cannot be handled by our security services.



OGBD, I almost jumped on your use of "deported", until I hauled out the thesaurus. It may also mean "comported", so well played.


----------



## DAA

And to add more insult to injury.........

"West’s email to the troops was written in English and translated into French by the newspaper. In the message, West apologized for sending an English-only email but explained that he wanted to get his message out urgently.
But Le Droit reported that the unilingual warning apparently displeased some francophone troops and a complaint has been filed with the Official Languages Commissioner’s office, which enforces breaches of the Official Languages Act.
Nelson Kalil, a spokesperson for commissioner Graham Fraser could not comment on the report or confirm whether a complaint had been filed because the office was closed for Remembrance Day."

It's funny though, the Chief didn't send any email to "the troops" but rather to his Snr CWO's.  By the time it reached the bottom, the message to be conveyed  was already in both official languages.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada/2015/11/12/post-about-defence-minister-sajjan-sparks-investigation.html


----------



## GK .Dundas

DAA said:
			
		

> And to add more insult to injury.........
> 
> "West’s email to the troops was written in English and translated into French by the newspaper. In the message, West apologized for sending an English-only email but explained that he wanted to get his message out urgently.
> But Le Droit reported that the unilingual warning apparently displeased some francophone troops and a complaint has been filed with the Official Languages Commissioner’s office, which enforces breaches of the Official Languages Act.
> Nelson Kalil, a spokesperson for commissioner Graham Fraser could not comment on the report or confirm whether a complaint had been filed because the office was closed for Remembrance Day."
> 
> It's funny though, the Chief didn't send any email to "the troops" but rather to his Snr CWO's.  By the time it reached the bottom, the message to be conveyed  was already in both official languages.
> 
> http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada/2015/11/12/post-about-defence-minister-sajjan-sparks-investigation.html


  :brickwall:


----------



## Privateer

Prime Minister Trudeau has published the mandate letters given to the ministers of his cabinet.  The full text of the letter to the Minister of National Defence is here: http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-national-defence-mandate-letter

Excerpt (sorry for the poor formatting):



> As Minister of National Defence, your overarching goal will be to ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces are equipped and prepared, if called upon, to protect Canadian sovereignty, defend North America, provide disaster relief, conduct search and rescue, support United Nations peace operations, and contribute to the security of our allies and to allied and coalition operations abroad. It will be important that you ensure a close link between defence policy, foreign policy, and national security. I also ask you to work closely with your colleague, the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, to ensure a seamless transition for Canadian Forces members to the programs and services of Veterans Affairs.
> 
> In particular, I will expect you to work with your colleagues and through established legislative, regulatory, and Cabinet processes to deliver on your top priorities:
> 
> - Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support.
> 
> - Ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces have the equipment they need. This includes:
> 
> * working with the Minister of Finance to maintain current National Defence spending levels, including current planned increases;
> 
> * working with the Minister of Public Services and Procurement to launch an open and transparent competition to replace the CF-18 fighter aircraft, focusing on options that match Canada’s defence needs; and
> 
> * working with the Minister of Public Services and Procurement to invest in strengthening the Navy, while meeting the commitments that were made as part of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy.
> 
> - Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to renew Canada’s commitment to United Nations peace operations. This includes:
> 
> * making Canada’s specialized capabilities – from mobile medical teams, to engineering support, to aircraft that can carry supplies and personnel – available on a case-by-case basis;
> 
> * working with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to help the United Nations respond more quickly to emerging and escalating conflicts and providing well-trained personnel to international initiatives that can be quickly deployed, such as mission commanders, staff officers, and headquarters units; and
> 
> * leading an international effort to improve and expand the training of military and civilian personnel deployed on peace operations, while insisting that any peacekeepers involved in misconduct be held accountable by their own country and the United Nations.
> 
> - Maintain Canada’s strong commitments to the North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD) and to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).
> 
> - Conduct an open and transparent review process to create a new defence strategy for Canada, replacing the now-outdated Canada First Defence Strategy.
> 
> - Renew Canada’s focus on surveillance and control of Canadian territory and approaches, particularly our Arctic regions, and increase the size of the Canadian Rangers.
> 
> - Work with senior leaders of the Canadian Armed Forces to establish and maintain a workplace free from harassment and discrimination.
> 
> - Work with the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence to reduce complexity, overhaul service delivery, and strengthen partnerships between National Defence and Veterans Affairs.
> 
> - Support the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness in a review of existing measures to protect Canadians and our critical infrastructure from cyber-threats.
> 
> - Work with the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence to develop a suicide prevention strategy for Canadian Armed Forces personnel and veterans.


----------



## DAA

^^^^^

That's quite the initial PDR!


----------



## Eaglelord17

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Semantics.
> 
> In defending the statement, he was agreeing to it, and just as guilty for rewording what was said.  Whether he made the original statement or not, he was defending it; all on camera.



My comment was to clarify a statement, not to pass judgement one way or another. If you are going to say someone said something make sure they actually said it otherwise you are both committing a moral offence (putting words into someone else's mouth) and violating the sites rules.
•You will not post any information that is... inaccurate... 

In regards to being just as guilty for defending something that is untrue. If someone finds a joke (this being a variable depending on the person) funny and they defend it, it doesn't mean they actually take the literal meaning to heart (in fact they usually find it funny because of how absurd they consider it). Defending something also doesn't mean agreeing with something, personally I don't agree with his actions however I am willing to defend them simply because I believe in freedom of speech. To quote Evelyn Beatrice Hall "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

This however is likely in the wrong thread at this point and we have already done many circles around in the other thread regarding hydro one.


----------



## captloadie

Because at least one member on this site gets his nose out of shape because they assume Francophones were being slandered, I will explain myself better. My comment was in reference to the article at the link below, which I hadn't the time to link to before posting my comments.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/cfb-valcartier-s-possible-ties-with-far-right-group-investigated-1.3208531


----------



## Kirkhill

Privateer said:
			
		

> Prime Minister Trudeau has published the mandate letters given to the ministers of his cabinet.  The full text of the letter to the Minister of National Defence is here: http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-national-defence-mandate-letter
> 
> Excerpt (sorry for the poor formatting):



Pook's summary.


Generals and their staffs could be redeployed from Bytown to Manhattan (if only the UN would pick up their paychecks it would solve the NDHQ bloat problems)

Navy and Air Force will be well funded and employed in the approaches on surveillance and the occasional overseas op (relying on the Americans for Top Cover)

CANSOFCOM, Logistics, Engineers and Medics will find it easier to justify expenditures.

Combat Arms, especially Armoured and Artillery will find it harder to get what they want/need (unless it is seen as a Defensive requirement - like, possibly, GBAD - or in Battlespace Management (FOO-FACs)

And the Infantry/Militia/Rangers.....I strongly suggest the future is Light (and possibly part time).

Played right, you could fill a number of holes in your structure under this government, and wait for the tide to turn to work on the "harder" stuff.


----------



## Canuck_Jock

In 'While Canada Slept' (2003) Andrew Cohen quoted then Foreign Affairs Minister John Manley as saying, "You can't just sit at the G8 table and then, when the bill comes, go to the washroom.  If you want to play a role in the world, even as a small member of the G8, there's a cost to doing that."

Now, "Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support."  In light of this directive, Prime Minister Trudeau is metaphorically excusing Canada to go to the washroom.  Discuss.

My 2 cents?  Our situation in 1950 when we committed to UN Forces in Korea was a lot more unclear than today.  However, 65 years later South Korea has evolved into a prosperous democracy whose success story is almost beyond imagination in 1950.  Most importantly though, is that we contributed to that success and the graves of our service personnel bear silent witness to our contribution to the cause of Korean liberty.   We could make that small step in Syria and Iraq.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Good idea, lets post a whole whack of NDHQ to UN missions overseas, I suspect the release rate will correct a whole host of issues.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Canuck_Jock said:
			
		

> Now, "Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support."  In light of this directive, Prime Minister Trudeau is metaphorically excusing Canada to go to the washroom.  Discuss.


That depends.  

To use the "house on fire" analogy brought up by others smarter than me, if you decide to pull out your firefighters, but end up spending a lot more $/effort training other firefighters and a lot more $/effort dealing with those running out of the burning house, nobody can complain if you're not holding a hose.

That said, to have a decent voice at the table, you'll have to train a LOT of firefighters and deal with a LOT of people running out of the house to have a decent voice/leverage at said table.


----------



## BurnDoctor

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> For the moment, though, there are other threads to discuss the threats you refer to - the cancer victim's funeral may not be the best time/place to say, "I told him s/he shouldn't have smoked so much."  All about time/place ....
> 
> Everyone - how about we keep this to "whazzup?" for the moment, and comment more on the "who?" and "why?" a little down the road once things are over and cleaned up, OK?"
> 
> 
> Yes, no jumping to conclusions - that's appropriate.  Still, IF it is ISIS or ISIS-inspired, I feel bad for the MND (who I respect immensely) having recently said Canadians don't need to fear ISIS. He might be wrong.


----------



## Stoker

BurnDoctor said:
			
		

> milnews.ca said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For the moment, though, there are other threads to discuss the threats you refer to - the cancer victim's funeral may not be the best time/place to say, "I told him s/he shouldn't have smoked so much."  All about time/place ....
> 
> Everyone - how about we keep this to "whazzup?" for the moment, and comment more on the "who?" and "why?" a little down the road once things are over and cleaned up, OK?"
> 
> 
> Yes, no jumping to conclusions - that's appropriate.  Still, IF it is ISIS or ISIS-inspired, I feel bad for the MND (who I respect immensely) having recently said Canadians don't need to fear ISIS. He might be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ISIS is apparently claiming responsibility, but they always do that even if they didn't do it.  If it turns out to be indeed ISIS it going to look real bad to pull out the CF 18's now.
Click to expand...


----------



## a_majoor

It is totally bizarre that shortly after the release of the mandate to withdraw from the fight, the fight moves right into the heart of Paris, and has the potential to expand elsewhere. I'm sure that there will be lots of very hard questions being asked in background of the upcoming G-8 summit, and if Canada metaphorically going to excuse itself to the washroom, I suspect Canada will not be invited to come back to the table...


----------



## opcougar

+10000000000000000000000000000000000000. However, there are a lot of delusional people in our society that will like to think we are tolerant. Thing is, many are xenophobic and say racist things that even they don't know it  : When they get called out, they jump on the old "bloggins is playing the race card"



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> To be fair to captloadie, OGBD, my last tour in the sandbox was Roto 7.  I trained and deployed with the folks from Valcartier.  I am not surprised as well that "someone" from there may have said something and I would also not be surprised if there was more than one person who shared this point of view.
> 
> That being said, however, I would not be surprised if "someone else" from another base in this country shared this point of view. * Racism is everywhere, sadly.*


----------



## OldSolduer

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Personally, I would not sent the NCO to a suspension, counselling, probation or relieve him/her of duty.
> 
> No, I would arrange for the said NCO a nice private session with CWO West, preferably somewhere deep in the bowels of CARP or a similar place (I hear they have nice one at Valcartier already).



A very public summary trial or court martial please.


----------



## Jarnhamar

opcougar said:
			
		

> Thing is, many are xenophobic and say racist things that even they don't know it  :



Doesn't xeno's mean aliens? Like in the movie Aliens?


----------



## GK .Dundas

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> A very public summary trial or court martial please.
> [/quo    Works for me , except.........if I were this guy's lawyer I 'd be claiming this was a politically inspired show trial. Not too sure what is the best answer to be honest .


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Better yet, present your case that your Charter rights to freedom of expression override a DAOD/any CAF policy...then watch that ball bounce.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Doesn't xeno's mean aliens? Like in the movie Aliens?


It can be used in "alien," like extra-terrestrial, but generally, it's more like "strange," "foreign" or "different".


			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Better yet, present your case that your Charter rights to freedom of expression override a DAOD/any CAF policy...then watch that ball bounce.


Good point.  Another scenario, though - not knowing exactly what was said, would it stand up to a libel (since it was "broadcast", as opposed to slander being shared face-to-face) proceeding?


----------



## Edward Campbell

So, Minister Sajjan, ISIL isn't a threat, right? Isn't that what you just said?






http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/paris-police-report-shootout-at-restaurant-explosion-near-stadium/article27256201/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/paris-attacks-kill-127-hollande-blames-islamic-state/article27263830/


----------



## Remius

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> So, Minister Sajjan, ISIL isn't a threat, right? Isn't that what you just said?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/paris-police-report-shootout-at-restaurant-explosion-near-stadium/article27256201/
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/paris-attacks-kill-127-hollande-blames-islamic-state/article27263830/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe he said: *ISIS is a threat, no doubt about that. Should we fear it? No. The Canadian population should have full confidence in all the security services to keep us safe.*



Let's not use recent events to misquote what some people are saying


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> So, Minister Sajjan, ISIL isn't a threat, right? Isn't that what you just said?


With all due respect, E.R., if CBC quoted him correctly, no, that doesn't seem to be what he said.  Here's what (CBC says) he said:


> ...."*ISIS is a threat, no doubt about that*. Should we fear it? No. The Canadian population should have full confidence in all the security services to keep us safe." ....



Attack what anybody says?  Let's go for it full speed, like in any democracy.  That said, we can do better than putting words in folks' mouths during high-tension times like this, though.

And if you're not a Liberal fan, don't worry -- Trudeau fils & Co. have _more_ than enough 'splainin' to do just based on what actually _is_ said without making stuff up.


----------



## Edward Campbell

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> With all due respect, E.R., if CBC quoted him correctly, no, that doesn't seem to be what he said.  Here's what (CBC says) he said:
> Attack what anybody says?  Let's go for it full speed, like in any democracy.  That said, we can do better than putting words in folks' mouths during high-tension times like this, though.
> 
> And if you're not a Liberal fan, don't worry -- Trudeau fils & Co. have _more_ than enough 'splainin' to do just based on what actually _is_ said without making stuff up.




Sorry, but he said: "Should we fear it? No." Well, I beg to differ. ISIL is using tactics (terrorism) that are designed to spread _fear_, and, as we can see in Europe, today, it works. Canadians should be apprehensive about this government's plans to fast track 25,000 "refugees" (almost all of whom will be, no doubt, decent folks who just want a chance) because a "small part" of that 25,000 are possibly, indeed likely, to be radicals bent on using terror tactics against Canadian soft targets.

It's no secret that I oppose the entire refugee scheme ... I think that converting the "fast track" election promise to policy is wrong, even dangerous because I fear it will offer a free visa to terrorists.

So I repeat my assertion that Minister Sajjan, and the entire Trudeau regime, needs to give his head a shake.


----------



## Remius

You claimed that he said that ISIL wasn't a threat and gave a face palm and posted a pic of the aftermath of last night's tragic event. That is a misquote.  His take on not fearing them I think was meant that we should trust our security apparatus and live our lives like we normally do.  

But I agree that Canadians should be apprehensive about the refugee scheme.

What I do fear is inspired attacks here at home, I fear for some of our Muslim communities that will suffer a backlash over this, I fear that some people will want irrational action on this.  

One way or the other, this government will be tested in the months to come.  Maybe more than they wanted.


----------



## opcougar

Do you "oppose" it for every country / race/ culture that wishes to come here, or is it just a particular? I ask because you can see how this can come across if say you think it's OK for Ukranians, Bosnians, Americans (yes some claim asylum here), Polish to come to Canada.

It should be one rule applies to all.



			
				E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Sorry, but he said: "Should we fear it? No." Well, I beg to differ. ISIL is using tactics (terrorism) that are designed to spread _fear_, and, as we can see in Europe, today, it works. Canadians should be apprehensive about this government's plans to fast track 25,000 "refugees" (almost all of whom will be, no doubt, decent folks who just want a chance) because a "small part" of that 25,000 are possibly, indeed likely, to be radicals bent on using terror tactics against Canadian soft targets.
> 
> *It's no secret that I oppose the entire refugee scheme* ... I think that converting the "fast track" election promise to policy is wrong, even dangerous because I fear it will offer a free visa to terrorists.
> 
> So I repeat my assertion that Minister Sajjan, and the entire Trudeau regime, needs to give his head a shake.


----------



## Edward Campbell

opcougar said:
			
		

> Do you "oppose" it for every country / race/ culture that wishes to come here, or is it just a particular? I ask because you can see how this can come across if say you think it's OK for Ukranians, Bosnians, Americans (yes some claim asylum here), Polish to come to Canada.
> 
> It should be one rule applies to all.




If you will bother to search my posts you will see that my opposition to (most of the world's) refugee policies is complete, regardless of race, creed our region of origin.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Remius said:
			
		

> _You claimed that he said that ISIL wasn't a threat_ and gave a face palm and posted a pic of the aftermath of last night's tragic event. _That is a misquote._  His take on not fearing them I think was meant that we should trust our security apparatus and live our lives like we normally do.
> 
> But I agree that Canadians should be apprehensive about the refugee scheme.
> 
> What I do fear is inspired attacks here at home, I fear for some of our Muslim communities that will suffer a backlash over this, I fear that some people will want irrational action on this.
> 
> One way or the other, this government will be tested in the months to come.  Maybe more than they wanted.




You're quite right.

I should have said "So, Minister Sajjan, ISIL isn't to be feared, right? Isn't that what you just said?" and then posted a bigger, double face-palm. That would have been more accurate and effective.

Minister Sajjan might be speaking for himself, but I suspect he's got a list of "talking points" from the campaign team/transition team/PMO, one of which says, "Don't be afraid of <insert group here> we have everything under control."

I do trust the security services ~ as much as any sensible Canadian should trust any bureaucratic entity ~ but I fear that political expediency may will result in the security services being told to turn a blind eye to problems with these 25,000 "refugees" ~ see my "small part" comments, again.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> The Canadian population should have *full confidence in all the security services to keep us safe.*"



Can someone explain to me the security services we have in place to stop this from happening when we cram 6000 undocumented refugees _a week_ onto military bases?


----------



## opcougar

Good to know. As I mentioned before, I despise when people utter buffoonery comments that are so xenophobic even when they try to hide what they really mean. The same person that will make a comment like "these people come over here....", is the same one that will claim "I can't be a racist / xenophobe because I have friends that are x,y,z" which is always crap really and made just for convenience sake  :


----------



## opcougar

The same one we had when refugees from Europe (Most Eastern) came here years ago



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Can someone explain to me the security services we have in place to stop this from happening when we cram 6000 undocumented refugees _a week_ onto military bases?


----------



## Remius

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> You're quite right.
> 
> I should have said "So, Minister Sajjan, ISIL isn't to be feared, right? Isn't that what you just said?" and then posted a bigger, double face-palm. That would have been more accurate and effective.
> 
> Minister Sajjan might be speaking for himself, but I suspect he's got a list of "talking points" from the campaign team/transition team/PMO, one of which says, "Don't be afraid of <insert group here> we have everything under control."
> 
> I do trust the security services ~ as much as any sensible Canadian should trust any bureaucratic entity ~ but I fear that political expediency may will result in the security services being told to turn a blind eye to problems with these 25,000 "refugees" ~ see my "small part" comments, again.



Agreed.  

Your post just threw me for a loop. I normally enjoy and respect your posts and opinions.  That one just seemed out of character.  Thanks for the explanation.

Cheers.


----------



## Stoker

The test of this government and new minister for me is if they go ahead with the pull out of the CF 18's. I would like for Trudeau to tell the French President just that at next months summit.


----------



## Remius

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Can someone explain to me the security services we have in place to stop this from happening when we cram 6000 undocumented refugees _a week_ onto military bases?



How many are actually undocumented though?  I suspect that we will be bringing in UN screened refugees from neighbouring countries at least initially. Also some that may already be in process for sponsorship. We screen thousands of people a day that come into this country.  But this will be a major undertaking involving border services, public health, industry canada, national defence etc etc.


----------



## Stoker

Remius said:
			
		

> How many are actually undocumented though?  I suspect that we will be bringing in UN screened refugees from neighbouring countries at least initially. Also some that may already be in process for sponsorship. We screen thousands of people a day that come into this country.  But this will be a major undertaking involving border services, public health, industry canada, national defence etc etc.



Depends on what you would call screening. If it proves that the terrorist's in France were part of the refugee influx then the French with some the best security and immigration policies in the world missed them, then I really don't trust screening from the UN. In my opinion we can't take the chance.


----------



## Haggis

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> The test of this government and new minister for me is if they go ahead with the pull out of the CF 18's. I would like for Trudeau to tell the French President just that at next months summit.



Our contribution of CF-18's is symbolic and adds nothing to the operational and tactical campaigns.  Politically, if (when) we withdraw them, Trudeau get a domestic win and international loss.  Strategically, the insurgents get a win.  If we stay the course, particularly at this point in time, Trudeau could spin this into a domestic and international political win.  Strategically, the insurgents get a lose.  Operationally, it's a draw in any scenario.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Here's a counter narrative for you on the whole refugee / migrant front.

1)  By some counts, there are 11M people who have made the decision that having their families barrel bombed by their own government is a bad idea, and have decided to leave (I do not trust those numbers).
2)  Assad reinstated the mandatory service clause for all "fighting aged males" in the Spring, asking people to contribute to the bombing of their own homes and families
3)  The people on the move could have walked 150 miles to Raqqah to join the Caliphate.  Instead, they walked 1500 miles to Rotterdam or 2500 miles to Rouen - and then on to Regina.  

I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

We have radicals here (in the West) now.  They are either home-grown or plants - likely the former, as the latter requires a degree of sophistication so far lacking in ISIL tactics - it is so much easier to turn someone in place, than to train and dispatch them.  Either way, we have mechanisms and institutions charged with protecting us from that threat.  So far, they have done a bloody good job.

I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as well.

Alternatively, we could close our borders, harden our hearts to the suffering of others, forgo all civil liberties, and be very safe. 

That is not the Canada I wish to serve.


----------



## The Bread Guy

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Sorry, but he said: "Should we fear it? No." Well, I beg to differ .... So I repeat my assertion that Minister Sajjan, and the entire Trudeau regime, needs to give his head a shake.


_That's_ more than fair game - and agree with that bit re:  there being _more_ than enough for Trudeau & Co. to need to reassure Canadians about.


			
				Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> The test of this government and new minister for me is if they go ahead with the pull out of the CF 18's. I would like for Trudeau to tell the French President just that at next months summit.


Yeah, it would be pretty crappy having one ally fighting the bad guys telling another, "sorry, we can't help you in the way you want," wouldn't it?


			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> .... The people on the move could have walked 150 miles to Raqqah to join the Caliphate.  Instead, they walked 1500 miles to Rotterdam or 2500 miles to Rouen - and then on to Regina ....


Good point - there's a case to be made that these folks, to paraphrase a Twitter post out there, are running away from those we want to get rid of.


----------



## Stoker

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> _That's_ more than fair game - and agree with that bit re:  there being _more_ than enough for Trudeau & Co. to need to reassure Canadians about.Yeah, it would be pretty crappy having one ally fighting the bad guys telling another, "sorry, we can't help you in the way you want," wouldn't it?Good point - there's a case to be made that these folks, to paraphrase a Twitter post out there, are running away from those we want to get rid of.



Yes that was seven years ago, I would hope to think we are better than that and recognize the threat that ISIS is. If we had bombs going off in Ottawa I would like to think France would stand with us.


----------



## Stoker

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Here's a counter narrative for you on the whole refugee / migrant front.
> 
> 1)  By some counts, there are 11M people who have made the decision that having their families barrel bombed by their own government is a bad idea, and have decided to leave (I do not trust those numbers).
> 2)  Assad reinstated the mandatory service clause for all "fighting aged males" in the Spring, asking people to contribute to the bombing of their own homes and families
> 3)  The people on the move could have walked 150 miles to Raqqah to join the Caliphate.  Instead, they walked 1500 miles to Rotterdam or 2500 miles to Rouen - and then on to Regina.
> 
> I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> We have radicals here (in the West) now.  They are either home-grown or plants - likely the former, as the latter requires a degree of sophistication so far lacking in ISIL tactics - it is so much easier to turn someone in place, than to train and dispatch them.  Either way, we have mechanisms and institutions charged with protecting us from that threat.  So far, they have done a bloody good job.
> 
> I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as well.
> 
> Alternatively, we could close our borders, harden our hearts to the suffering of others, forgo all civil liberties, and be very safe.
> 
> That is not the Canada I wish to serve.



Perhaps the "fighting aged males" should join the rebels and try and get their country back.

So far we in Canada have been lucky something larger hasn't happened and i'm not comfortable with giving them the benefit of a doubt.

If we are to bring them in then we should restrict their movements and have a plan in place to repatriate them to their home country when the situation improves.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> If we had bombs going off in Ottawa I would like to think France would stand with us.


My mind's not made up about the CF-18's -- pro:  if the house is burning, it's a good idea to help put out the fire; con:  how much (numbers-wise) are we _actually_ helping put out the fire, and is the overall firefighting approach an effective one?).

If I were of the "GTFO" persuasion, I could say, "our jets (as well as those of several other countries) have been there for a while, and didn't stop the Paris attacks, so how much will more of the same help?"  

There's more than one way to stand with France at a time like this than keeping jets in theatre.


----------



## Stoker

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> My mind's not made up about the CF-18's -- pro:  if the house is burning, it's a good idea to help put out the fire; con:  how much (numbers-wise) are we _actually_ helping put out the fire, and is the overall firefighting approach an effective one?).
> 
> If I were of the "GTFO" persuasion, I could say, "our jets (as well as those of several other countries) have been there for a while, and didn't stop the Paris attacks, so how much will more of the same help?"
> 
> There's more than one way to stand with France at a time like this than keeping jets in theatre.



I agree to a point but the perception to the public for example dropping bombs on "bad guys" is a powerful one. IF we were to pull out at some point it should be later given the events in Paris. I think this is not the right time.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Notwithstanding my long held (and not shared by much of anyone) views on refugee policy, my concern is not with most of the 25,000, it is with that pesky "small part" that Brad mentioned ~ a "small part" which might, I fear, slip through our security screen due to a political campaign promise.

     (By the way, we, as a nation, did well by (for) _and from_ the Hungarian refugees in 1956, the Ugandan Asian refugees in 1972 and the Vietnamese _boat people_ 1979/80. Refugees are not and need not always be a burden on society. Sometimes refugees have integrated better
      than immigrants. That doesn't alter my opinion on global refugee policy.)


----------



## Haggis

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> If I were of the "GTFO" persuasion, I could say, "our jets (as well as those of several other countries) have been there for a while, and didn't stop the Paris attacks, so how much will more of the same help?"



In their claim of responsibility, ISIS asserted that the presence of French forces in the conflict was the reason for the attack.  Would this not have happened if the French weren't there?

Conversely, without resistance from the coalition, how large and powerful would ISIS be today?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> IF we were to pull out at some point it should be later given the events in Paris. I think this is not the right time.


Good point - in addition to "what?", "when?" is an important optical/political factor.


			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> In their claim of responsibility, ISIS asserted that the presence of French forces in the conflict was the reason for the attack.  Would this not have happened if the French weren't there?
> 
> Conversely, without resistance from the coalition, how large and powerful would ISIS be today?


Also good points adding to my head scratching ....


----------



## Brad Sallows

>What I do fear is inspired attacks here at home, I fear for some of our Muslim communities that will suffer a backlash over this, I fear that some people will want irrational action on this.

I don't.  Hasn't happened yet.  Can we stop concern-trolling the "backlash" until one actually happens?


----------



## George Wallace

opcougar said:
			
		

> Good to know. As I mentioned before, I despise when people utter buffoonery comments that are so xenophobic even when they try to hide what they really mean. The same person that will make a comment like "these people come over here....", is the same one that will claim "I can't be a racist / xenophobe because I have friends that are x,y,z" which is always crap really and made just for convenience sake  :



We are all biased in our own ways.  It is human nature.  No one is exempt from holding a bias towards something that is foreign or different.  To label anyone/everyone who disagrees with your views as a "Racist" is absurd.  It really pains me that the term "Racist" is so often used by many as a defence of their own opinions and bias.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Perhaps the "fighting aged males" should join the rebels and try and get their country back.



Leaving their families to die?

Easy to talk about this stuff when our children are safe.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> If we are to bring them in then we should restrict their movements and have a plan in place to repatriate them to their home country when the situation improves.



Once they are here under the present rush to appease a political promise, it is unlikely they can be forced to go home and anyway, why would we want them to? Maybe in a generation or 2 the offspring will see a prosperous ancestral land for which to return, and we will profoundly miss them as our own population ages with less and less grace. And anyway, who says those families  want to come to Canada if they have other more local options. 

I think our strategy should be 3 part- (1) fund refugee resettlement in other countries (2) accept all of those families who wish to come to Canada (ie more or less than 25,000, it doesn't really matter) but (a) first clear them from abroad by putting them on a fast track special purpose immigration process, something with more rigour than an airlift/refugee asylum process that is causing so much concern; and most importantly (3) take every orphaned child out of there and from every country that doesn't want such children  RIGHT NOW. MY GF and I will take 3 or 4, please. I cannot think of a better contribution of guaranteeing a prosperous future for Canada. 

As for the military options, we are either in or out and I say "out". It was always known that a ground fight and eventual extermination of sorts is going to be required, and except for the Kurds, Russians and some of Assads forces, no one else is going to do it against Daeesh. The fact is, this was always going to turn into a full scale regional apocalypse between and amongst overarmed countries and non-state actors, and there is nothing that can stop that.


----------



## Stoker

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Leaving their families to die?
> 
> Easy to talk about this stuff when our children are safe.



Yes it is as we don't live in a land racked with strife and I would dearly like to keep it that way. We are fortunate that we live in a land where physical distance has left us relatively unscathed from the turmoil over there. I'm not sure that would be the case if we lived in close to Europe given our current feel good policies. I wonder how Canadians would feel in for instance Germany's current situation.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> Once they are here under the present rush to appease a political promise, it is unlikely they can be forced to go home and anyway, why would we want them to? Maybe in a generation or 2 the offspring will see a prosperous ancestral land for which to return, and we will profoundly miss them as our own population ages with less and less grace. And anyway, who says those families  want to come to Canada if they have other more local options.
> 
> I think our strategy should be 3 part- (1) fund refugee resettlement in other countries (2) accept all of those families who wish to come to Canada (ie more or less than 25,000, it doesn't really matter) but (a) first clear them from abroad by putting them on a fast track special purpose immigration process, something with more rigour than an airlift/refugee asylum process that is causing so much concern; and most importantly (3) take every orphaned child out of there and from every country that doesn't want such children  RIGHT NOW. MY GF and I will take 3 or 4, please. I cannot think of a better contribution of guaranteeing a prosperous future for Canada.
> 
> As for the military options, we are either in or out and I say "out". It was always known that a ground fight and eventual extermination of sorts is going to be required, and except for the Kurds, Russians and some of Assads forces, no one else is going to do it against Daeesh. The fact is, this was always going to turn into a full scale regional apocalypse between and amongst overarmed countries and non-state actors, and there is nothing that can stop that.



I'm not against refugees or racist but I think there are legitimate long term concerns that need to be looked at.

- are we accepting certain tribes only or refugees from all tribes? If all, are we vetting to make sure we're not importing current problems?

- what's the vetting process and what paperwork is required? Syria, as recently as 5 years ago, was calling for Israel to be removed from the face of the earth. Can we make sure we're not bringing in anti-semi Ted or hezbollah supporters? 

- are we vetting for certain skills (doctors for example) or just allowing all pers in?

- are we checking for medical issues such as PTSD/OSI and signs of early childhood trauma? If pers have these symptoms how are we making (potentially lifelong) support available?


On a personal level it bothers me that were fast tracking Syrians ahead of other refugees with equally agregious circumstances. What about Iraqis or afghans? Sudanese? Aside from social media outrage why us the Syrian plight such that we should FastTrack one people over another? It feels like an attempt at political points 

There are a million questions and I don't believe they can be appropriately answered by Christmas.  

As for no one going into Syria,  I suspect France has been motivated to act. I do sincerely hope that we don't import our own reasons


----------



## Jed

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Sorry, but he said: "Should we fear it? No." Well, I beg to differ. ISIL is using tactics (terrorism) that are designed to spread _fear_, and, as we can see in Europe, today, it works. Canadians should be apprehensive about this government's plans to fast track 25,000 "refugees" (almost all of whom will be, no doubt, decent folks who just want a chance) because a "small part" of that 25,000 are possibly, indeed likely, to be radicals bent on using terror tactics against Canadian soft targets.
> 
> It's no secret that I oppose the entire refugee scheme ... I think that converting the "fast track" election promise to policy is wrong, even dangerous because I fear it will offer a free visa to terrorists.
> 
> So I repeat my assertion that Minister Sajjan, and the entire Trudeau regime, needs to give his head a shake.



That is a very appropriate observation; however hard for our newly minted PM and MOD to hoist aboard.


----------



## opcougar

I concur...well said.



			
				Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >What I do fear is inspired attacks here at home, I fear for some of our Muslim communities that will suffer a backlash over this, I fear that some people will want irrational action on this.
> 
> I don't.  Hasn't happened yet. * Can we stop concern-trolling the "backlash" until one actually happens?*


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Haggis said:
			
		

> Our contribution of CF-18's is symbolic and adds nothing to the operational and tactical campaigns.



Rather than repeating myself...

http://army.ca/forums/threads/121105/post-1400757.html#msg1400757

Please, let's stop saying things that aren't accurate.  I get it, many CAF mbr's don't like fighter types for whatever reasons.  The ONLY assets we have that are actually doing something that involves directly targeting ISIS forces are the same CF-18s you suggest are "adding nothing to the operational and tactical campaigns".  They are the only folks with the ROE and gear to strike, and they are striking.


----------



## Good2Golf

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Rather than repeating myself...
> 
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/121105/post-1400757.html#msg1400757
> 
> Please, let's stop saying things that aren't accurate.  I get it, many CAF mbr's don't like fighter types for whatever reasons.  The ONLY assets we have that are actually doing something that involves directly targeting ISIS forces are the same CF-18s you suggest are "adding nothing to the operational and tactical campaigns".  They are the only folks with the ROE and gear to strike, and they are striking.



 :nod:

To further reinforce what EITS notes above, back 16 years ago in Kosovo, under UN Operation ALLIED FORCE, even though Canadian CF-18s didn't have much of the sophisticated targeting and link equipment their contemporaries had, six, then 12 then 18 CF-18s were deployed to support an air campaign to halt Milosevic's ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo.  Our CF-18s lead numerous missions, significantly out of proportion to the size of the Canadian fleet -- numerous references note CF-18s represented just 2% of the allied air assets, but conducted close to 10% of the strike missions.   

It would be reasonable to consider that the technologically upgraded CF-18s operating in the skies over Syria would be considered by allies to be contributing significantly.

Regards
G2G


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Rather than repeating myself...
> 
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/121105/post-1400757.html#msg1400757
> 
> Please, let's stop saying things that aren't accurate.  I get it, many CAF mbr's don't like fighter types for whatever reasons.  The ONLY assets we have that are actually doing something that involves directly targeting ISIS forces are the same CF-18s you suggest are "adding nothing to the operational and tactical campaigns".  They are the only folks with the ROE and gear to strike, and they are striking.



You only reaffirm that CAF membership is at times "our own worst enemy".  The Army takes the cake in this regard.  People in the CAF need to stop being John Madden and actually support what our guys are doing over there.  Put the petty service rivalries to the side and stop talking out of your lanes.

Infantry shouldn't be injecting themselves in to every conversation about fighter jets and telling the Pilots and Aviators how they should be doing their jobs.


----------



## Haggis

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Infantry shouldn't be injecting themselves in to every conversation about fighter jets and telling the Pilots and Aviators how they should be doing their jobs.



Please, search the boards and find a post where I told an aviator - or any other trade - *how* to do his/her job.  My _opinions_ were directed towards the policy and utility of having those assets engaged.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Haggis said:
			
		

> Please, search the boards and find a post where I told an aviator - or any other trade - *how* to do his/her job.  My _opinions_ were directed towards the policy and utility of having those assets engaged.



Point highlighted in yellow for you.  Did you know that the Kurds just captured Sinjar Mountain from ISIS?  I'll give you a little geography lesson:


https://goo.gl/maps/Yj3MHU1GJpr

Sinjar Mountain is the dominant high feature on the road between Raqqa and Mosul, capturing it allows the occupant to control the main supply route between ISIS two main strongholds.  The Kurds just recaptured it and have essentially cut ISIS supply lines in two.  ISIS is now forced to use desert routes which take far longer and also expose them to additional risk.  

Guess who helped the Kurds capture Sinjar?  Canadian Special Forces, supported by CF18 aircraft who dropped bombs on ISIS positions.  Yep our planes sure are useless over there  :

EDIT:

I don't get some folks in the CAF sometimes.  These guys killed two of our own, on home soil and they want to kill more of us if they get the chance.  Why the heck do we not want to be over there bombing them?  Are we sheep or are we wolves?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Sheepdogs maybe?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Sheepdogs maybe?



Some are, the jury is out on the rest though.


----------



## Haggis

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Some are, the jury is out on the rest though.



The farther you get from the threat the more you become sheep and less dog.


----------



## Haggis

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Point highlighted in yellow for you.  Did you know that the Kurds just captured Sinjar Mountain from ISIS?  I'll give you a little geography lesson:
> 
> 
> https://goo.gl/maps/Yj3MHU1GJpr
> 
> Sinjar Mountain is the dominant high feature on the road between Raqqa and Mosul, capturing it allows the occupant to control the main supply route between ISIS two main strongholds.  The Kurds just recaptured it and have essentially cut ISIS supply lines in two.  ISIS is now forced to use desert routes which take far longer and also expose them to additional risk.
> 
> Guess who helped the Kurds capture Sinjar?  Canadian Special Forces, supported by CF18 aircraft who dropped bombs on ISIS positions.  Yep our planes sure are useless over there  :



Point conceded.  "Nothing" was the wrong word for me to use to describe the impact of our air contribution.



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I don't get some folks in the CAF sometimes.  These guys killed two of our own, on home soil and they want to kill more of us if they get the chance.  Why the heck do we not want to be over there bombing them?  Are we sheep or are we wolves?



There are many (not I) who believe that the attacks of October 2014 were a direct result of our actions against ISIS, even though they were not ISIS _directed_, merely ISIS _inspired_ attacks (based on MSM and OSINT reports).

In that Spain withdrew from the war in Iraq as a direct result of the Madrid bombings, and the Spanish have not suffered a domestic Islamist terrorist attack since, there is historical precedent to bear this belief out.

Will we be safer if we bring the Hornets home?  Maybe.  But, I think not, as ISIS not only opposes our participation in combat against the caliphate, but they also oppose our kuffar way of life. As I said  in another thread, ISIS' belief in their particular brand of Islam is pure and complete and their opposition to anyone/anything that does not absolutely conform to their belief should be destroyed.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Haggis said:
			
		

> Point conceded.  "Nothing" was the wrong word for me to use to describe the impact of our air contribution.
> 
> There are many (not I) who believe that the attacks of October 2014 were a direct result of our actions against ISIS, even though they were not ISIS _directed_, merely ISIS _inspired_ attacks (based on MSM and OSINT reports).
> 
> In that Spain withdrew from the war in Iraq as a direct result of the Madrid bombings, and the Spanish have not suffered a domestic Islamist terrorist attack since, there is historical precedent to bear this belief out.
> 
> 
> Will we be safer if we bring the Hornets home?  Maybe.  But, I think not, as ISIS not only opposes our participation in combat against the caliphate, but they also oppose our kuffar way of life. As I said  in another thread, ISIS' belief in their particular brand of Islam is pure and complete and their opposition to anyone/anything that does not absolutely conform to their belief should be destroyed.



http://www.dw.com/en/spanish-police-make-arrests-over-suspected-islamic-state-terror-attack-in-madrid/a-18824471

Just because they haven't been successful doesn't mean they haven't tried.  Spanish Police arrested a cell who wanted to attack Madrid last week.  You're presenting a very simplistic picture of the situation.

People can deny it all they want, we are at war with these people.


----------



## Haggis

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> You're presenting a very simplistic picture of the situation.



As do those who subscribe to this view, fed by the MSM.



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> People can deny it all they want, we are at war with these people.



Sorry, no.  "We", the greater Canada, are not at war.  A small portion of our Armed Forces is at war.  The next battle that the average Canadian is gearing up for is Black Friday.


----------



## Altair

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Point highlighted in yellow for you.  Did you know that the Kurds just captured Sinjar Mountain from ISIS?  I'll give you a little geography lesson:
> 
> 
> https://goo.gl/maps/Yj3MHU1GJpr
> 
> Sinjar Mountain is the dominant high feature on the road between Raqqa and Mosul, capturing it allows the occupant to control the main supply route between ISIS two main strongholds.  The Kurds just recaptured it and have essentially cut ISIS supply lines in two.  ISIS is now forced to use desert routes which take far longer and also expose them to additional risk.
> 
> Guess who helped the Kurds capture Sinjar?  Canadian Special Forces, supported by CF18 aircraft who dropped bombs on ISIS positions.  Yep our planes sure are useless over there  :
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> I don't get some folks in the CAF sometimes.  These guys killed two of our own, on home soil and they want to kill more of us if they get the chance.  Why the heck do we not want to be over there bombing them?  Are we sheep or are we wolves?


We could have all our planes and every single man and woman in the CAF over there right now and it wouldn't stop two homegrown radicalized Islamic terrorists from carrying out those attacks.

A bomb over there doesn't stop a guy with a hunting rifle or car here.

That's a war being waged by our domestic security forces, csis, rcmp, local police. Not the CAF.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Here's a counter narrative for you on the whole refugee / migrant front.
> 
> 1)  By some counts, there are 11M people who have made the decision that having their families barrel bombed by their own government is a bad idea, and have decided to leave (I do not trust those numbers).
> 2)  Assad reinstated the mandatory service clause for all "fighting aged males" in the Spring, asking people to contribute to the bombing of their own homes and families
> 3)  The people on the move could have walked 150 miles to Raqqah to join the Caliphate.  Instead, they walked 1500 miles to Rotterdam or 2500 miles to Rouen - and then on to Regina.
> 
> I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> We have radicals here (in the West) now.  They are either home-grown or plants - likely the former, as the latter requires a degree of sophistication so far lacking in ISIL tactics - it is so much easier to turn someone in place, than to train and dispatch them.  Either way, we have mechanisms and institutions charged with protecting us from that threat.  So far, they have done a bloody good job.
> 
> I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt as well.
> 
> Alternatively, we could close our borders, harden our hearts to the suffering of others, forgo all civil liberties, and be very safe.
> 
> That is not the Canada I wish to serve.



Reports are coming in that at least one attacker came through the refugee pipeline.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Which in no way refutes the narrative.


----------



## Loachman

Altair said:
			
		

> A bomb over there doesn't stop a guy with a hunting rifle or car here.



Defeating them militarily on their own turf can certainly limit their appeal internationally. If recruiting drops because they lose their aura of invincibility, then that is a good thing.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Altair said:
			
		

> We could have all our planes and every single man and woman in the CAF over there right now and it wouldn't stop two homegrown radicalized Islamic terrorists from carrying out those attacks.
> 
> A bomb over there doesn't stop a guy with a hunting rifle or car here.
> 
> That's a war being waged by our domestic security forces, csis, rcmp, local police. Not the CAF.



No but it will stop the recipient of the bomb from coming here and supporting the guy with the hunting rifle or car.


----------



## a_majoor

Altair said:
			
		

> We could have all our planes and every single man and woman in the CAF over there right now and it wouldn't stop two homegrown radicalized Islamic terrorists from carrying out those attacks.
> 
> A bomb over there doesn't stop a guy with a hunting rifle or car here.
> 
> That's a war being waged by our domestic security forces, csis, rcmp, local police. Not the CAF.



We are a wealthy and powerful nation, and _if we desired to do so_ could indeed send every man jack, airplane, ship and other assorted tools of war to Syria (or indeed, with some preparation, anywhere at all). As a Western military, we do indeed have the ability to project force around the world, and the professional skills to make it count when we get there. Because *we* as a nation have not had the collective interest or will to invest in the Armed forces for many decades, an invasion and destruction of the so called Caliphate would be a long and grinding process, but I don't doubt for a moment that we would militarily prevail. And erasing the Caliphate might inspire a few people to take out cars and hunting rifles for revenge, but would also dissuade far more people from moving in that direction.

Destroying and discrediting ISIS and all its leaders and institutions is the same formula which was used with great success against Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan, and while some of the ideologies are still around (National Socialism is the de facto anner under which many of Europe's nativist parties opposed to immigration and the EU run), they have not achieved much success since 1945. While thing may be changing in Europe to allow for these ideas to make a comeback, consider how long it took and what pressures had to be brought to bear (Arrogent and unresponsive Eurocrats dictating to sovereign nations, the financial meltdown, unrestricted immigration starting in the 1980's and the current confluence of terrorism and mass immigration from the same region the terrorists come from) for this to happen.


----------



## Cloud Cover

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Which in no way refutes the narrative.



Doesn't appear to matter, the narrative is being bent by circumstances and spinning in an awful direction.


----------



## YZT580

Haggis said:
			
		

> As do those who subscribe to this view, fed by the MSM.
> 
> Sorry, no.  "We", the greater Canada, are not at war.  A small portion of our Armed Forces is at war.  The next battle that the average Canadian is gearing up for is Black Friday.



The small portion of our Armed Forces represents me as a Canadian.  Therefore, I am at war with ISIS. They were sent there under the orders of the government that I caused to be elected and serve me by being there.  They are not there on their own volition nor are they acting independently.  That would be treason. In fact, I suspect that many of them would much rather be back at their home bases.


----------



## daftandbarmy

YZT580 said:
			
		

> The small portion of our Armed Forces represents me as a Canadian.  Therefore, I am at war with ISIS. They were sent there under the orders of the government that I caused to be elected and serve me by being there.  They are not there on their own volition nor are they acting independently.  That would be treason. *In fact, I suspect that many of them would much rather be back at their home bases.
> *



Ummmm.... I doubt it. 

Killing really, really bad guys, in a war zone that is about as black and white as you can get these days, is why people join up in the first place. They're not over there for years and years either, and get rotated back for the usual amount of leave etc.

OTOH, sitting on a base in Canada counting things and guarding the lockers? That's the stuff that will cause warriors to quit.  :camo:


----------



## jollyjacktar

:goodpost:


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Ummmm.... I doubt it.
> 
> Killing really, really bad guys, in a war zone that is about as black and white as you can get these days, is why people join up in the first place. They're not over there for years and years either, and get rotated back for the usual amount of leave etc.
> 
> OTOH, sitting on a base in Canada counting things and guarding the lockers? That's the stuff that will cause warriors to quit.  :camo:



Never were truer words spoken!


----------



## Jarnhamar

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> OTOH, sitting on a base in Canada counting things and guarding the lockers? That's the stuff that will cause warriors to quit.  :camo:



Our regular army needs more smaller deployments at platoon and company level.  Less brigade sized ones in Wainwright.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Our regular army needs more smaller deployments at platoon and company level.  Less brigade sized ones in Wainwright.



What the Army needs to do is get involved in the Security Force Capacity Building business.  Something that right now is only really done by SOF and a handful of guys in organizations like DMTC and PSTC.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> What the Army needs to do is get involved in the Security Force Capacity Building business.  Something that right now is only really done by SOF and a handful of guys in organizations like DMTC and PSTC.



Why? Just let the Army continue to train itself for what it has to do. It is having a hard time doing that now whit the budget it has.


----------



## Journeyman

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> What the Army needs to do is .....


^^^^  Maybe this should be a stand-alone thread title.

I'd offer up:

....get out of the badge-changing and HQ renaming/expanding business.


----------



## Kirkhill

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Our regular army needs more smaller deployments at platoon and company level.  Less brigade sized ones in Wainwright.



Could somebody create a Cost of Training Matrix?

1 Brigade Exercise at Wainwright of 14 Days costs X Dollars

X Dollars buys you how many local Brigade Exercise Days
X Dollars buys you how many local Battle Group Exercise Days
X Dollars buys you how many local Battalion Exercise Days
X Dollars buys you how many local Combat Team Exercise Days
X Dollars buys you how many local Company Exercise Days
X Dollars buys you how many local Platoon Exercise Days
X Dollars buys you how many local Section Exercise Days
X Dollars buys you how many local Team Exercise Days
X Dollars buys you how many local Crew Exercise Days
X Dollars buys you how many local Individual Exercise Days.

If you get my drift...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Chris Pook said:
			
		

> Could somebody create a Cost of Training Matrix?
> 
> 1 Brigade Exercise at Wainwright of 14 Days costs X Dollars
> 
> (....)
> 
> If you get my drift...


How's this for a start?


			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> 300K will buy a week in the field for 1 CMBG.  I say kudos for rooting out waste wherever it is.


Tweak for inflation, and you have the first point on the graph ....


----------



## Eye In The Sky

YZT580 said:
			
		

> The small portion of our Armed Forces represents me as a Canadian.



Okay.  I'll buy that.



> Therefore, I am at war with ISIS. They were sent there under the orders of the government that I caused to be elected and serve me by being there.



Sorry, but unless you have to wash Iraqi sand out of your kit _or_ have hours logged over the Badlands, you'll have to be happy with being represented by that small portion of the CAF representing you.  You are no more 'at war' with ISIS personally than the guy who manages the Sobeys is.  IMO.



> In fact, I suspect that many of them would much rather be back at their home bases.



I'm sure firefighters would rather be home with their families rather than running into burning building and rescuing daring kitties from tall trees.  Doesn't mean they don't understand why some people have to be firefighters and run into burning building and rescue kitties who climb.  I would always rather be home than away;  that makes me human, with a nice home and a wife I love - nothing else.  

My experience is the folks who 'would rather be back home' in the context I think you meant it in are the ones who never 'go outside the wire';  they aren't a part of the ops side and aren't in on whats going on in the theatre and may not see 'the point' of being there because they only know things from the news, RUMINT and WAGs around the patio.  They get into the Groundhog Day thing on the camp and it can be a very small bubble of existence.

Those people fall under the SC side, not so much the XXX-Det side.


----------



## Kirkhill

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> How's this for a start?Tweak for inflation, and you have the first point on the graph ....



Two more points and you could extrapolate a line - if the relationship were linear.  But the real "curve" is likely to be some weird exponential because the "units" on the X axis are of differing sizes.

I think somebody would actually have to do the leg work - and then have some one decide whether a million individual training days is more valuable that one brigade training week (for example).


----------



## daftandbarmy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> ^^^^  Maybe this should be a stand-alone thread title.
> 
> I'd offer up:
> 
> ....get out of the badge-changing and HQ renaming/expanding business.



I hope that one of the good things about having a new government is that weirdness will end:

“Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason.” 

― Mark Twain


----------



## YZT580

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Okay.  I'll buy that.
> 
> You are no more 'at war' with ISIS personally than the guy who manages the Sobeys is.  IMO.
> 
> Tell that to the folks in Paris my friend.  A number of you have been moaning for years about the Canadian folks not supporting the military.  Your statements indicate why.  You want to be isolated and misunderstood.  Throughout WW2 Korea and Cyprus and  the cold war postings in Germany there were numerous Canadians watched while husbands, brothers etc marched off to war.  They spent their evenings around the radio and grabbed the newspapers to follow the obit. column for each regiment.  So don't you dare tell me that those who sit at home are not every bit as involved as those who are out in the desert.  That is pure arrogance of the worst kind.


----------



## brihard

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Tell that to the folks in Paris my friend.  A number of you have been moaning for years about the Canadian folks not supporting the military.  Your statements indicate why.  You want to be isolated and misunderstood.  Throughout WW2 Korea and Cyprus and  the cold war postings in Germany there were numerous Canadians watched while husbands, brothers etc marched off to war.  They spent their evenings around the radio and grabbed the newspapers to follow the obit. column for each regiment.  So don't you dare tell me that those who sit at home are not every bit as involved as those who are out in the desert.  That is pure arrogance of the worst kind.



Having been out in a different desert, I'll very comfortably tell you that those sitting at home are NOT 'every bit as involved' as those deployed, and you're bloody deluded if you think otherwise. It's not arrogance to state that; you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own set of facts.

You want to be/feel involved? Deploy or provide direct support to a deployment. Otherwise pipe down, because you're way out of your lane. Listening to a radio or reading a newspaper- or, these days, watching TV and browsing facebook, doesn't 'involve' you in the fight no matter how much you might want to pretend it does.

Might I ask you to offer some basic gist of your military service? Your profile is pretty thin, and you're startling in the claim you're trying to make.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Brihard said:
			
		

> Having been out in a different desert, I'll very comfortably tell you that those sitting at home are NOT 'every bit as involved' as those deployed, and you're bloody deluded if you think otherwise. It's not arrogance to state that; you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own set of facts.
> 
> You want to be/feel involved? Deploy or provide direct support to a deployment. Otherwise pipe down, because you're way out of your lane. Listening to a radio or reading a newspaper- or, these days, watching TV and browsing facebook, doesn't 'involve' you in the fight no matter how much you might want to pretend it does.
> 
> Might I ask you to offer some basic gist of your military service? Your profile is pretty thin, and you're startling in the claim you're trying to make.




Sorry, Brihard, but you two are talking past each other.

Are you going to suggest that Hamish Seggie and his wife weren't (and still aren't) just as _involved_ in the camaiagn in Afghanistan as you? Every sailor, soldier and RCAF member deployed creates _involvement_ for others, at home. Every casualty increases and decreases public support for any mission. The casualty lists, to which YZT580 alludes, were front page news in the early 1940s: far, far more important than even the exploits of Maurice Richard, Ted Kennedy and Betty Grable. People can be _involved_ even if at a great distance, even if they don't have any 'skin' (in the form of a son or daughter, a husband or wife, a friend or partner) in the 'game.'


----------



## Kirkhill

And, if I may add ERC, the public gets involved when they feel like targets.  And New York, London and Paris (and Ottawa) (and Madrid) (and Bombay) make civilians feel like targets.


----------



## Loachman

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Sorry, Brihard, but you two are talking past each other.
> 
> Are you going to suggest that Hamish Seggie and his wife weren't (and still aren't) just as _involved_ in the camaiagn in Afghanistan as you? Every sailor, soldier and RCAF member deployed creates _involvement_ for others, at home.



The order given was "So don't you dare tell me that those who sit at home are not _*every bit as involved*_ as those who are out in the desert."

Others, not deployed, may be involved in some capacity, to varying degrees, but they are not, in any way "every bit as involved" as the guy/girl in location, living with whatever deprivations his or her situation requires, including the likelihood of being shot or blown up.

There is no comparison.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

YZT580 said:
			
		

> Tell that to the folks in Paris my friend.  A number of you have been moaning for years about the Canadian folks not supporting the military.  Your statements indicate why.  You want to be isolated and misunderstood.  Throughout WW2 Korea and Cyprus and  the cold war postings in Germany there were numerous Canadians watched while husbands, brothers etc marched off to war.  They spent their evenings around the radio and grabbed the newspapers to follow the obit. column for each regiment.  So don't you dare tell me that those who sit at home are not every bit as involved as those who are out in the desert.  That is pure arrogance of the worst kind.



Maybe you can tell the family of the man pictured below exactly how you are "_putting it on the line_", just like he did. 







Were you there for either of the ramp ceremonies in theatre?  At home here in Canada?  PLEASE explain to me why YOU think YOU are _'every bit as involved as those who are out in the desert'_.

I cannot express how angry it makes me that you think you deserve to ride along on the honour Canadians like Sgt Doiron earn thru their service and sacrifice.


----------



## daftandbarmy

So, tell me again, how is this all about the title of this thread: Canada's New Defence Minister?  ???


----------



## Remius

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> So, tell me again, how is this all about the title of this thread: Canada's New Defence Minister?  ???



 :dunno:

Maybe because the new MND has actually been every bit involved as those in the desert?  (Which is kind of cool) Or maybe this just derailed into some sort of measuring contest.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Remius said:
			
		

> :dunno:
> 
> Maybe because the new MND has actually been every bit involved as those in the desert?  (Which is kind of cool) Or maybe this just derailed into some sort of measuring contest.



Or derailed for a reality check after Reply #249...http://army.ca/forums/threads/121038/post-1401021.html#msg1401021


----------



## Kirkhill

Loachman said:
			
		

> The order given was "So don't you dare tell me that those who sit at home are not _*every bit as involved*_ as those who are out in the desert."
> 
> Others, not deployed, may be involved in some capacity, to varying degrees, but they are not, in any way "every bit as involved" as the guy/girl in location, living with whatever deprivations his or her situation requires, including the likelihood of being shot or blown up.
> 
> There is no comparison.



Accepted - wrt the "every bit" bit.


----------



## 2RCR_SIG_fox

He seems to understand the situation in the Mideast and all the players and factions.


----------



## Journeyman

2RCR_SIG_fox said:
			
		

> He seems to understand the situation in the Mideast and all the players and factions.


OK, that's a nice enough opinion.....as opinions go, I guess.  But it begs the question, based on what? 

I personally don't believe that anyone understands the situation in the Mideast and all the players and factions. Why do you think differently? 

I mean, sure, he seems like a cool dude. But his deployments have been to Bosnia and Afghanistan; those places are not the Middle East. His civie background is policing in Vancouver, working gangs. If you follow the news, those gangs _tend_  to be more Asian than Arab; how would that give him any special insights into Middle Eastern culture, politics, players?


Welcome to the site. Try to avoid throwing out one-liners without any justification, sources, points of discussion, etc.  _Some_  people here get flinchy.


----------



## YZT580

I hereby withdraw the phrase "every bit".


----------



## Kirkhill

YZT580 said:
			
		

> I hereby withdraw the phrase "every bit".



Phew! Thank God for that.   [


----------



## Edward Campbell

The Minister of National Defence addresses both the ISIS mission and refugees and Canadians' reactions to them both in this video.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I see he's still getting used to speaking to the press.  While he asked for it by virtue of running for office, I don't envy his time now in the spotlight.  Hopefully he'll smooth out more down the road.


----------



## Old Sweat

Maybe when asked a hard question, he should just take a selfie. It works for his boss.


----------



## blacktriangle

Did he say Taliban??


----------



## jollyjacktar

I suppose he's not used to talking about the new set of assholes we're dealing with and it was a slip of the tongue back to the usual assholes.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Spectrum said:
			
		

> Did he say Taliban??



I hope so. They deserve to die too  ;D


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I hope so. They deserve to die too  ;D



Potatoes, Patatas!
Tomatoes, Tomatas!


----------



## Cloud Cover

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I hope so. They deserve to die too  ;D



Seems like they are killing each other anyway: http://on.rt.com/6oxs


----------



## OldSolduer

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> I hope so. They deserve to die too  ;D



There's a whole bunch of folk that need a good killin........


----------



## dapaterson

The MND is starting to build his team.  CBC Reporter (and sometime army.ca poster) James Cudmore has announced on twitter that he's starting work for the MND.

My son picked out this tie for my first day on the new job: I'm thrilled to join the office of @HarjitSajjan pic.twitter.com/6PYY0yfF6N


EDIT: He changed his Twitter handle to remove the "CBC" from it.


----------



## Danjanou

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The MND is starting to build his team.  CBC Reporter (and sometime army.ca poster) James Cudmore has announced on twitter that he's starting work for the MND.
> 
> My son picked out this tie for my first day on the new job: I'm thrilled to join the office of @HarjitSajjan pic.twitter.com/6PYY0yfF6N
> 
> 
> EDIT: He changed his Twitter handle to remove the "CBC" from it.




I could have sworn I taught him how to tie a proper double windsor knot when he was a recruit. :


----------



## The Bread Guy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I could have sworn I taught him how to tie a proper double windsor knot when he was a recruit. :


To be fair, how long's that been, and how often's he worn a tie since then?   ;D


----------



## Cloud Cover

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> There's a whole bunch of folk that need a good killin........



One of the best posts ever.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I gotta say I haven't been amazed by the new MND to date.

When he first got named MND I found it comical a lot of people acted like he was the second coming of Patton based simply off the fact he was a soldier who served in Afghanistan and in some cases a Sikh.

It turned out he apparently was a really good soldier and leader. I really hoped he was picked because he would be a great MND and not just because it would look like he would be a great MND.

Maybe he hasn't had a chance to shine yet (and really in the greater scheme of things I'm a bayonet) but anytime I've seen articles, comments or whatever from him they've all really just sounded like political-speak and politician talk. Like you can't get a straight answer for whether it's warm or cold outside. It's cliche but I hope he turns out to be a lion and not a lamb as MND.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... anytime I've seen articles, comments or whatever from him they've all really just sounded like political-speak and politician talk. Like you can't get a straight answer for whether it's warm or cold outside ...


Or it's like during late 2009 when the government of the day was still working out the specifics of its position on how "out" of Afghanistan we were going to be - a lot of tea leaf reading then, just like a lot of tea leaf reading now.


----------



## jollyjacktar

It's still pretty early days, I haven't given up on him yet.  I don't know how much sway he will have with the kid and the string pullers behind the scene or how much leash he'll be given.  He gets his marching orders just like everyone else.


----------



## Stonegeneral

Given the stated and apparent priorities of the new government, I suspect that the MND's portfolio also isn't as high on the to-do list. Perhaps when the refugee resettlement process winds down and the budget is released they may find time to give him a bit more attention.....maybe.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I am getting a sense that they did not realize how much real work all their promise entailed or how quickly people were expecting them to keep them, one of the first nation Chiefs had to crash the Ministers Xmas party to get a meeting.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Colin P said:
			
		

> I am getting a sense that they did not realize how much real work and money all their promise entailed or how quickly people were expecting them to keep them ...


FTFY &  :nod:


----------



## Old Sweat

Sorry for the necropsy, but I came across this entry in the OP Log of c/s G23 of TF 3-06 dated 11 Sep 06:

"Met a Major Sajan (sp) from the last tour. He is a RCMP [sic] officer who works the organized crime stuff back home. He has been gathering int on Taliban movement. He gives me some good info and we start applying it to our missions. ICOM chatter tells us we are doing well. The Taliban hate us and don't want to fight anymore. Yet we are still getting shot at from across the waddie (sp). Again very close to my vehicle and the boys."

C/s G23 was the FOO party with Charles Company. At this time the company group which had taken heavy casualties earlier was part of TF Grizzly, led by an American colonel. The log recorded that G23 had fired 88 155mm HE and controlled a number of air strikes on 11 Sep.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Just putting these here all in one place ...

_*"Transport Minister Marc Garneau) gives interview on national defence as embattled Sajjan not available"*_ (Global, 5 May)
_*"Minister Sajjan and Minister Garneau to Unveil Canada’s New Defence Policy"*_ (Info-machine, 2 June)
_*"Rumours of cabinet shuffle swirl"*_ (G&M, 12 June)


----------



## Lightguns

At least, "he whose name no one in the army will speak" the honourable gentlemen from Orleans is not being mentioned in connection with DND.  There is that.

This seems to be causing some misunderstanding I mean LtGen (Retired) Leslie.  There you made me say it.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Lightguns said:
			
		

> At least, "he whose name no one in the army will speak" the honourable gentlemen from Orleans is not being mentioned in connection with DND.  There is that.



Amen.  That, would be a fucking disaster and disappointment.


----------



## Rifleman62

Headline: War hero, former Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan to become Minister of Veterans Affairs; former Astronaut and military officer Marc Garneau to be Minister of National Defence, steering the department to new heights.   ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Headline: War hero, former Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan to become Minister of Veterans Affairs; former Astronaut and military officer Marc Garneau to be Minister of National Defence, steering the department to new heights.   ;D


I'm surprised you didn't use the chance to throw "architect" in there somewhere  ;D


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Wow! Going from a three-ringer to a four-ringer. What next? A GOFO !!!   [


----------



## a_majoor

I will raise the same issue Edward did with Minister Sajjan: Does Minister Garneau have the resume showing experience managing extremely large and complicated organizations like DND? Especially given the President's use of an electric cattle prod to bring Canadian defense spending closer to the 2% of GDP mark, and the possibility of having to advance things from the Liberal timetable due to external shocks (flare ups in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, South China Sea, DPRK, Mexican drug war etc.)

I'll adopt a wait and see attitude.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Does Minister Garneau have the resume showing experience managing extremely large and complicated organizations like DND?



Resumes showing experience doesn't seem to be a prerequisite with the Liberal cabinet.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Thucydides said:
			
		

> ... Does Minister Garneau have the resume showing *experience managing extremely large and complicated organizations* like DND? ...





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Resumes showing experience doesn't seem to be a prerequisite with the Liberal cabinet.


And this is the standard by which you've judged _other_ defence ministers -- like some before the incumbent?

Let's go down the most recent list ...

Jason Kenney:  Former NGO/advocacy group boss
Rob Nicholson:  Former lawyer
Peter MacKay:  Former Crown Attorney
Gordon O'Connor:  Former armoured/general officer, PR/lobbyist
Bill Graham:  Lawyer/university prof
David Pratt:  Former municipal politician
John McCallum:  Academic/chief economist
Art Eggleton:  Accountant/municipal politician
Doug Young:  Broadcaster, businessman, lawyer, notary, teacher
Or is it just the red ones that need all this experience in managing complicated organizations to be a defence minister?    According to the list, you have good odds if you've been a lawyer before ...


----------



## jmt18325

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Resumes showing experience doesn't seem to be a prerequisite with the Liberal cabinet.



Based on what, exactly?  And in comparison to previous cabinets?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I have read that some consider Bill Graham as the best Liberal Defense Minister we had.


----------



## Lightguns

There is zero requirement to know anything about DND for a MDND.  That's what uncivil servants are for.  A proper minister works his way around the cabinet table to get his ministry on the top of the heap.  Military experienced MDND are nothing but trouble, witness O'Connor (whose rep was as "the Other CDS"; Bombardier Hellyer, and his near destruction of the Service; and last but not least Sir Sam and his crony contracts, his Anglo only recruiters in Franco areas and his self award to theater medals because he "visited" the trenches.  There was a couple others but they seemed to have managed to remain competently mediocre.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=milnews.ca] 
Or is it just the red ones that need all this experience in managing complicated organizations to be a defence minister?    According to the list, you have good odds if you've been a lawyer before ...
[/quote]

Only the red ones, blue are all good!  

You got me, you're right.  I'll back pedal and say I meant to imply an over all theme to pick members based on (what seems to me) gender and other status than experience.   Before I'm tracked down and charged I'm not suggesting that's why the current mnd was picked at all but there does seem to be an over all theme with the liberal government.  Am I wrong about where the emphasis seems to be?


----------



## jmt18325

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Only the red ones, blue are all good!
> 
> You got me, you're right.  I'll back pedal and say I meant to imply an over all theme to pick members based on (what seems to me) gender and other status than experience.   Before I'm tracked down and charged I'm not suggesting that's why the current mnd was picked at all but there does seem to be an over all theme with the liberal government.  Am I wrong about where the emphasis seems to be?



If you go through the list of Liberal ministers, you'll find that most of them have held very important roles outside of government.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Only the red ones, blue are all good!


That's more honest than many  ;D


			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> ... an over all theme to pick members based on (what seems to me) *gender* and other status than experience ... there does seem to be an over all theme with the liberal government ...


For the record, Canada's only had one female DefMin - and she was Team Blue ...




When it comes to what to look for in a DefMin (I'm keeping it just to _that_ position because of the thread's focus), even military experience seems to be a mixed blessing.  Some say it's best for a DefMin to be former military because s/he would know a bit about how "the system" works.  Others say such experience is a minus because it may focus their attention to details they know, but ones that may not be critical to deal with as a Minister.  Wikipedia (usual GIGO caveats notwithstanding) says only 13 out of 41 of Canada's DefMin's have had military experience, ranging from Battery Sergeant Major (yay sr. NCO's) up to General (mostly a mix of junior & senior officers).


----------



## GAP

Didn't she gift the army with the Iltis because it was built in her riding?


----------



## Old Sweat

GAP said:
			
		

> Didn't she gift the army with the Iltis because it was built in her riding?



The Iltis came along in the early-eighties after Bombardier asked Lamontagne to buy it to help the company with a sale to, I believe, Belgium. I think you may be referring to a later vehicle that was to be built in BC, Kelowna perhaps.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I agree that military experience is not a requirement for a MND. But some kind of demonstration of capacity for management and some demonstrated capacity for research/analysis/drafting as can be expected from someone who has at least graduated university is, IMHO. Then, in the case of the larger and more important departments, some ministerial experience (or at least long political experience) is a very important asset.

Sajan had no university degree at all (was not required when he joined the Militia), as police officer, then detective, he never "administered" anything nor worked in large groups for his civilian work, finally he was only just elected in this last election and was therefore a complete political neophyte.

Garneau, on the other hand, holds a Doctorate in engineering, was President of the Canadian Space Agency for 5 years and has been a member of the House of commons for 10 years before becoming a minister of the Crown.

I trust more in Garneau than in Sajan for an important portfolio like Defence.


----------



## Haggis

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I trust more in Garneau than in Sajan for an *important portfolio *like Defence.



Canadian Defence is only important to those who work in the sector (uniformed and civilian) and those who deal with it as suppliers or enablers. Occasionally, Canadian Defence is important to our allies.  Rarely is Canadian Defence important to Canadians writ large and they are the one who will vote in the Liberals again in the next election.  Therefore, my prediction is that the next MND will be neither solder, sailor, aviator or statesman, but simply a quiet, competent manager/administrator who will keep DND and the CAF humming silently in the background and out of the media's sights.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Haggis said:
			
		

> Canadian Defence is only important to those who work in the sector (uniformed and civilian) and those who deal with it as suppliers or enablers. Occasionally, Canadian Defence is important to our allies.  Rarely is Canadian Defence important to Canadians writ large and they are the one who will vote in the Liberals again in the next election.  Therefore, my prediction is that the next MND will be neither solder, sailor, aviator or statesman, but simply a quiet, competent manager/administrator who will keep DND and the CAF humming silently in the background and out of the media's sights.



Pretty much and what you stated fits with the order of precedence of the assigned ministers:



> The order of precedence for the ministry is determined by the Prime Minister. The order in which ministers are sworn into the ministry is also determined by the Prime Minister.
> 
> The Right Honourable Justin P. J. Trudeau
> Prime Minister
> 
> The Honourable Ralph Goodale
> Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
> 
> The Honourable Lawrence MacAulay
> Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food
> 
> The Honourable Carolyn Bennett
> Minister of Indigenous and Northern Affairs
> 
> The Honourable Scott Brison
> President of the Treasury Board
> 
> The Honourable Dominic LeBlanc
> Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard
> 
> The Honourable Navdeep Singh Bains
> Minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development
> 
> The Honourable William Francis Morneau
> Minister of Finance
> 
> The Honourable Jody Wilson-Raybould
> Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada
> 
> The Honourable Judy M. Foote
> Minister of Public Services and Procurement
> 
> The Honourable Chrystia Freeland
> Minister of Foreign Affairs
> 
> The Honourable Jane Philpott
> Minister of Health
> 
> The Honourable Jean-Yves Duclos
> Minister of Families, Children and Social Development
> 
> The Honourable Marc Garneau
> Minister of Transport
> 
> The Honourable Marie-Claude Bibeau
> Minister of International Development and La Francophonie
> 
> The Honourable James Gordon Carr
> Minister of Natural Resources
> 
> The Honourable Mélanie Joly
> Minister of Canadian Heritage
> 
> The Honourable Diane Lebouthillier
> Minister of National Revenue
> 
> The Honourable Kent Hehr
> Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence
> 
> The Honourable Catherine McKenna
> Minister of Environment and Climate Change
> 
> The Honourable Harjit Singh Sajjan
> Minister of National Defence
> 
> The Honourable Amarjeet Sohi
> Minister of Infrastructure and Communities
> 
> The Honourable Maryam Monsef
> Minister of Status of Women
> 
> The Honourable Carla Qualtrough
> Minister of Sport and Persons with Disabilities
> 
> The Honourable Kirsty Duncan
> Minister of Science
> 
> The Honourable Patricia A. Hajdu
> Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Labour
> 
> The Honourable Bardish Chagger
> Leader of the Government in the House of Commons and Minister of Small Business and Tourism
> 
> The Honourable François-Philippe Champagne
> Minister of International Trade
> 
> The Honourable Karina Gould
> Minister of Democratic Institutions
> 
> The Honourable Ahmed D. Hussen
> Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship


http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/index.asp?lang=eng&page=prec

You can see where National Defence ranks on the scale of importance for the government; number 21 between climate change and infrastructure and communities.

Public Safety, which is responsible for National Security and oversees CSIS, RCMP, CBSA, Corrections, etc is #2

Public Safety leans heavily on DND/CAF for support to its mandate; however, we aren't important in the halls of decision-making.


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## jmt18325

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Pretty much and what you stated fits with the order of precedence of the assigned ministers:
> http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/index.asp?lang=eng&page=prec
> 
> You can see where National Defence ranks on the scale of importance for the government; number 21 between climate change and infrastructure and communities.
> 
> Public Safety, which is responsible for National Security and oversees CSIS, RCMP, CBSA, Corrections, etc is #2
> 
> Public Safety leans heavily on DND/CAF for support to its mandate; however, we aren't important in the halls of decision-making.



I think that might be a misunderstanding of what is meant:

Members of the Cabinet in order of appointment to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada with ties broken by order of election to the House or appointment to the Senate

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_order_of_precedence

It then goes by alphabetical order.  It has nothing to do with importance.


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## Humphrey Bogart

jmt18325 said:
			
		

> I think that might be a misunderstanding of what is meant:
> 
> Members of the Cabinet in order of appointment to the Queen's Privy Council for Canada with ties broken by order of election to the House or appointment to the Senate
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_order_of_precedence
> 
> It then goes by alphabetical order.  It has nothing to do with importance.



In theory Jmt it is only a nominal role; however, in terms of messaging it's important.  So we will agree to disagree on this  8)



> Order of precedence is a sequential hierarchy of nominal importance of items.



All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others  

We also have order of precedence in the military with respect to medals, decorations, etc.  A VC is of greater importance than a MMV, MSC to MSM, etc.


----------



## Monsoon

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I will raise the same issue Edward did with Minister Sajjan: Does Minister Garneau have the resume showing experience managing extremely large and complicated organizations like DND? Especially given the President's use of an electric cattle prod to bring Canadian defense spending closer to the 2% of GDP mark, and the possibility of having to advance things from the Liberal timetable due to external shocks (flare ups in Eastern Europe, the Middle East, South China Sea, DPRK, Mexican drug war etc.)
> 
> I'll adopt a wait and see attitude.


Don't know what your standard for a "large and complicated organization" is, but Garneau ran the Space Agency for four years; that ain't nothing.


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## Humphrey Bogart

Monsoon said:
			
		

> Don't know what your standard for a "large and complicated organization" is, but Garneau ran the Space Agency for four years; that's ain't nothing.



He also was an Astronaut so he's probably pretty intelligent.   8)


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## Kirkhill

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> He also was an Astronaut so he's probably pretty intelligent.   8)



Yes, but can he do rocket surgery?   ;D


----------



## Journeyman

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> He also was an Astronaut so he's probably pretty intelligent.   8)


So, while he may not be an architect, he may know rocket science?


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## Humphrey Bogart

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So, while he may not be an architect, he may know rocket science?



Therefore he is a Sky Captain  

Let's hope he doesn't bomb at the box office 

/end corny movie reference


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## Fishbone Jones

GAP said:
			
		

> Didn't she gift the army with the Iltis because it was built in her riding?



Nope, not the Iltis, that's a whole other fiasco.
 She gave us the LSVW. The rights to build it were bought from Iveco by Western Star. Like the Iltis and Bombardier, is was then built to the lowest standard possible, with inferior parts and the will to make as much as possible off of a government contract at the cost of performance and a complete disregard for the soldiers that then have to use this shit in combat situations. Heaters that wouldn't work because the rubber band it ran on would break in the cold. Crippling, no shit leg breaking spare tire mounts and, IIRC, 60bhp with the turbo kicked in. And we can't leave without the cause of the name, LSVW. Loud Squeeky Vehicle Wheeled. They were the hardest brake pads known to man, actuated by minimum pressure wheel cylinders. All in an attempt to have the warranty, that covered them, void by the time they finally wore out.


----------



## Lightguns

recceguy said:
			
		

> Nope, not the Iltis, that's a whole other fiasco.
> She gave us the LSVW. The rights to build it were bought from Iveco by Western Star. Like the Iltis and Bombardier, is was then built to the lowest standard possible, with inferior parts and the will to make as much as possible off of a government contract at the cost of performance and a complete disregard for the soldiers that then have to use this crap in combat situations. Heaters that wouldn't work because the rubber band it ran on would break in the cold. Crippling, no crap leg breaking spare tire mounts and, IIRC, 60bhp with the turbo kicked in. And we can't leave without the cause of the name, LSVW. Loud Squeeky Vehicle Wheeled. They were the hardest brake pads known to man, actuated by minimum pressure wheel cylinders. All in an attempt to have the warranty, that covered them, void by the time they finally wore out.



Not to mention all those poor RCEME types that ran out of parts for their well maintained '76 Chevy trucks.........


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## Good2Golf

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Not to mention all those poor RCEME types that ran out of parts for their well maintained '76 Chevy trucks.........



...although, that was one of the better "MIL"COTS buys out there, all things considered.  Yes, the 24V bit always was a bit wonky, but otherwise, it was kind of hard to screw up a Chevy 1-ton (called a 5/4  ).

Regards
G2G


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## Colin Parkinson

We also picked up the US army Dodge 1 ton Milcot as well as a interim buy (not to mention the M151, CJ5)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Updated mandate letter for the DefMin (also attached) - key highlights ...


> ... As Minister of National Defence, your overarching goal will be to ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces are equipped and prepared, if called upon, to protect Canadian sovereignty, defend North America, provide disaster relief, conduct search and rescue, support United Nations peace operations, and contribute to the security of our allies and to allied and coalition operations abroad. It will be important that you ensure a close link between defence policy, foreign policy, and national security. I also ask you to work closely with your colleague, the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence, to ensure a seamless transition for Canadian Forces members to the programs and services of Veterans Affairs.
> 
> In particular, I will expect you to work with your colleagues and through established legislative, regulatory, and Cabinet processes to deliver on your top priorities:
> 
> Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria, refocusing Canada’s efforts in the region on the training of local forces and humanitarian support.
> 
> Ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces have the equipment they need. This includes:
> 
> working with the Minister of Finance to maintain current National Defence spending levels, including current planned increases;
> working with the Minister of Public Services and Procurement to launch an open and transparent competition to replace the CF-18 fighter aircraft, focusing on options that match Canada’s defence needs; and
> working with the Minister of Public Services and Procurement to invest in strengthening the Navy, while meeting the commitments that were made as part of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy.
> 
> Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to renew Canada’s commitment to United Nations peace operations. This includes:
> 
> making Canada’s specialized capabilities – from mobile medical teams, to engineering support, to aircraft that can carry supplies and personnel – available on a case-by-case basis;
> working with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to help the United Nations respond more quickly to emerging and escalating conflicts and providing well-trained personnel to international initiatives that can be quickly deployed, such as mission commanders, staff officers, and headquarters units; and
> leading an international effort to improve and expand the training of military and civilian personnel deployed on peace operations, while insisting that any peacekeepers involved in misconduct be held accountable by their own country and the United Nations.
> 
> Maintain Canada’s strong commitments to the North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD) and to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO).
> 
> Conduct an open and transparent review process to create a new defence strategy for Canada, replacing the now-outdated Canada First Defence Strategy.
> 
> Renew Canada’s focus on surveillance and control of Canadian territory and approaches, particularly our Arctic regions, and increase the size of the Canadian Rangers.
> 
> Work with senior leaders of the Canadian Armed Forces to establish and maintain a workplace free from harassment and discrimination.
> 
> Work with the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence to reduce complexity, overhaul service delivery, and strengthen partnerships between National Defence and Veterans Affairs.
> 
> Support the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness in a review of existing measures to protect Canadians and our critical infrastructure from cyber-threats.
> 
> Work with the Minister of Veterans Affairs and Associate Minister of National Defence to develop a suicide prevention strategy for Canadian Armed Forces personnel and veterans. ...


----------



## MilEME09

> end Canada’s combat mission in Iraq and Syria,



I Thought it wasn't a combat mission?



> invest in strengthening the Navy, while meeting the commitments that were made as part of the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy.



This sounds like to me a green light to buy from other yards not currently part of the NSPS


----------



## The Bread Guy

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I Thought it wasn't a combat mission?


It is now that it's on paper.


----------



## MarkOttawa

milnews.ca:

Work with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to renew Canada’s commitment to United Nations peace operations. This includes:

        





> making Canada’s specialized capabilities – from mobile medical teams, to engineering support, to aircraft that can carry supplies and personnel – available on a case-by-case basis;
> working with the Minister of Foreign Affairs to help the United Nations respond more quickly to emerging and escalating conflicts and providing well-trained personnel to international initiatives that can be quickly deployed, such as mission commanders, staff officers, and headquarters units; and
> leading an international effort to improve and expand the training of military and civilian personnel deployed on peace operations, while insisting that any peacekeepers involved in misconduct be held accountable by their own country and the United Nations.



Sure looks now like no large number of Army troops (infantry, light-armoured) in units for any one mission such as Mali.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## brihard

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> It is now that it's on paper.



That's been the case since the original mandate letter in 2015. The interesting wording received attention then.


----------



## McG

Are we sure that is an updated letter?  One of the tasks is to undertake the defence policy review, and I am pretty sure the government is claiming that box is checked.


----------



## FJAG

MCG said:
			
		

> Are we sure that is an updated letter?  One of the tasks is to undertake the defence policy review, and I am pretty sure the government is claiming that box is checked.



I'm pretty sure it isn't a current one notwithstanding the date in the file name. The date at the top of the letter itself is 12/11/2015. The comment about ending the "combat mission in Iraq and Syria" undoubtedly referred to the previous mission under Harper. Also the lengthy "feel good" preamble sounds to me like the initial attempt to separate themselves from the Harper style of government that they entered into immediately after the election.

 :cheers:


----------



## The Bread Guy

MCG said:
			
		

> Are we sure that is an updated letter?  One of the tasks is to undertake the defence policy review, and I am pretty sure the government is claiming that box is checked.


I'm reading this ...


> ... Conduct an open and transparent review process to create a new defence strategy for Canada, replacing the now-outdated Canada First Defence Strategy ...


... as the yellow bit being the next step/deliverable, especially since a new "policy" was announced in June, not a "strategy"


----------



## McG

Research beats assumption.  I don’t think that a new mandate letter. Reference this thread:





			
				Privateer said:
			
		

> Prime Minister Trudeau has published the mandate letters given to the ministers of his cabinet.  The full text of the letter to the Minister of National Defence is here: http://pm.gc.ca/eng/minister-national-defence-mandate-letter
> 
> Excerpt (sorry for the poor formatting):


----------



## The Bread Guy

MCG said:
			
		

> Research beats assumption.  I don’t think that a new mandate letter. Reference this thread:


I _*do*_ stand corrected - thanks for that!


----------

