# When did batmen fall out of use?



## a_majoor (4 Aug 2011)

I am staying in the N lines in Pet, and the age of the building is evident in the sign on the laundry room door: "Batmen's room"

Evidently the doors have neither been replaced or even painted in quite some time, but this leads to the question; when did the practice of having a Batman end in the Canadian forces?


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## aesop081 (4 Aug 2011)

My question would have been "How much lead is in this paint ?"


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## PMedMoe (4 Aug 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> My question would have been "How much lead is in this paint ?"



Or, how many layers of paint.   ;D


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## Old Sweat (4 Aug 2011)

I can't give you a definitive answer, but a friend on mine had one as a battalion commander in the early '80s. However the title batman/driver used to appear on establishments post-Korea. When I was a second lieutenant in Gagetown circa 1961-1962, I had a batman for a short period (I paid him $5.00 a week out of my $185.00 or so a month net.) This lasted until we got a new BC who lived in and noticed him. At which point I lost him, and being a product of the lower middle class at best, I decided I could look after myself. 

Having rambled through the issue while I collected my thoughts, I think they offically disappeared in the early sixties, and integration would have done away with the practice. My suspicion is that it survived in infantry battalions and perhaps elsewhere after that. In the bad old days it was a way of teaching battle procedure to potential NCOs by the follow the platoon commander around and see what happens next methodology.


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## Edward Campbell (4 Aug 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I am staying in the N lines in Pet, and the age of the building is evident in the sign on the laundry room door: "Batmen's room"
> 
> Evidently the doors have neither been replaced or even painted in quite some time, but this leads to the question; when did the practice of having a Batman end in the Canadian forces?




I still had one, as a junior officer, in an infantry battalion in North Germany, in 1969 ~ when I returned to regimental duty in the mid 1970s, as a field officer, I still had one, but I was a CO. I still had a batman/driver (for my 'office'/caravan) as a major unit CO in 1978-81 but there were none for any of my officers. I'm afraid that's a 10 year time frame but it's the best I can do.



Edit: to add infantry battalion/North Germany to support what Old Sweat said - it seemed to be a unit by unit thing.


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## Hammer Sandwich (4 Aug 2011)

Fine, I'll ask...

I've Googled the frig out of "batmen"....No, I don't mean "batman"...thanks anyways, Google.

What/who are is/the Batmen?

_(I feel like I'm gettin' punked.......oh well)_

Won't be the first time if stepped on it.
HS


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## mariomike (4 Aug 2011)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> What/who are is/the Batmen?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28military%29


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## Hammer Sandwich (4 Aug 2011)

mariomike said:
			
		

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28military%29



Yup...did it again....continuing an excellent record of ignorance.

Thought the "wikipedia" was about Batman...."the Batman".....
Not "batmen".

Thanks, MM.


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## cavalryman (4 Aug 2011)

The Commander 4CMBG in the late '80s (a BGen at the time) had a batman, who was unofficially known as such.  Can't remember what he was on the establishment, but he was provided by an un-named inf batallion in Lahr.


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## OldTanker (5 Aug 2011)

When I arrived in the Strathcona's in 1975 they were gone. I seem to remember hearing there were batmen earlier in the decade, not one per officer, but one to "bat" for a number of the living in officers. But that's a hazy memory.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (5 Aug 2011)

In the Navy, they disappeared on July 3rd, 1970 - when HMCS BONAVENTURE decommissioned. 

Batmen was the term used to designate the Landing Signal Officers, even if by the time Bonnie decommissioned they were using landing mirror sights instead of "bats" to land the planes.

 Sorry, you asked your question in a general military history forum not Army specific, so I could not resist.


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## Greymatters (5 Aug 2011)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> My suspicion is that it survived in infantry battalions and perhaps elsewhere after that. In the bad old days it was a way of teaching battle procedure to potential NCOs by the follow the platoon commander around and see what happens next methodology.



Ive never heard that explanation before - hard to imagine a batman learning about how to be an officer when he's polishing boots and cleaning uniforms. 

The batmen was basically the equivalent of a valet, a personal servant whose duties included boot polisher, room maintainer, uniform cleaner, errand runner, field cook, chaffeur, and whatever else he was needed for.  The position was created due to many of the aristocracy who joined the military wanting to have a personal servant like they had when they were civilians (with the bonus of the military paying for the servant). 

Although there are better sources, I'll refer to the Wikipedia one out of laziness to support this definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(military)


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## Franko (5 Aug 2011)

We had a Brit exchange Officer a while ago ask on a Sqn parade "Who would like to be my Batman?"

The SSM summed him up.

Good riddance to an archaic "privilege" IMHO.

Regards


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## Michael OLeary (5 Aug 2011)

From the 1930s:



> During the winters, we had the various schools of Militia Officer training. Here again. Fort York was the main venue. One of the games was to teach them drill, company to battalion. For this game, we soldiers with long ropes became a full unit. The fun was when they were passing out. If the officer was a good egg (nice to his batman, etc) we executed the drill movement he was supposed to have ordered. If he was not in our good books, we did exactly what he ordered, chaos! A part of their education was how to conduct an Orderly Room parade. Again, we were the guinea pigs, and were marched in to the Company Commander with various dreamed up charges, supplications or complaints.



A 1950s viewpoint:



> Bearing in mind that a rifle company walked to their destination unless time and space dictated they would be loaded into the back of a 2 1/2 ton truck for the luxury of a ride. I recall that 11 Platoon had one seemingly dedicated "deuce and a half" for general purposes and a 3/4 ton which was used mainly for stores and re-supply, by the platoon sergeant. Platoon weapons were, a 9mm Browning pistol was carried by the platoon commander, 9mm Stens carried by the three section corporals and the platoon commander's batman/signaller, three .303 cal BREN light machine guns carried by the three section Bren gunners and the rest of the platoon carried the .303 calibre Lee Enfield bolt action rifle.



And early 1960s:



> The platoon nominally contained 35 men -- platoon commander, platoon sergeant, signaller, batman and runner, and three sections of 10 men, commanded by a corporal -- but no platoon commander ever had all 35 available at the same time.


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## Old Sweat (5 Aug 2011)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Ive never heard that explanation before - hard to imagine a batman learning about how to be an officer when he's polishing boots and cleaning uniforms.
> 
> The batmen was basically the equivalent of a valet, a personal servant whose duties included boot polisher, room maintainer, uniform cleaner, errand runner, field cook, chaffeur, and whatever else he was needed for.  The position was created due to many of the aristocracy who joined the military wanting to have a personal servant like they had when they were civilians (with the bonus of the military paying for the servant).
> 
> ...


Your second and third paragraphs are or were quite true in the Victorian era and before and in garrison up to 40 or 50 years ago. For example I was quite astounded to find how many members of the rifle companies in South Africa were lost to the battalion because they were detailed as servants and grooms for officers attached for instructional purposes as well as some of the hangers on like Sam Hughes, the future MND, or Major Denison, who managed to get a staff job in Lord Roberts' headquarters rather than stay as the unit QM. 

However, in an infantry platoon in the field the batman accompanied the officer on recces, acting as his bodyguard and learning the battle procedure as he went along. I remember as an officer cadet being taught that on Phase One.


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## Michael OLeary (5 Aug 2011)

A tongue in chhek lok at the role of the Batman.

Advice to the Officers of the British Army with the addition of some hints to the drummer and private soldier
Chapter XVII - To the Private Soldier



> If you are batman to an officer, your perquisites are certain. Sell half the forage to the sutlers who keep horses or asses: if they don't pay you in money, they will in gin. As a Christian is more worthy than a beast, it is better your master's horses should want than you.


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## Journeyman (5 Aug 2011)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> ..... it was a way of teaching battle procedure to potential NCOs  by the follow the platoon commander around and see what happens next methodology.


I can see how that might be a useful instructional technique....one may even say, a cunning plan.   ;D


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## Michael OLeary (5 Aug 2011)

The Senior NCO's role in choosing the right man:

The Officer and Fighting Efficiency (1940)



> v.     Arrange to meet the senior N.C.O. If he is an old soldier, he may be able to help you. Go through the orders of the move with him.
> 
> vi.     Ask him to pick you out a suitable man for your batman. He can mark your baggage and look after it during the journey.


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## Greymatters (5 Aug 2011)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Your second and third paragraphs are or were quite true in the Victorian era and before and in garrison up to 40 or 50 years ago.



Is your experience in the use of batmen in Canada? It would have been different from their use in Europe or in the field.  My UK friends who I talked about this with were of the opinion that nothing much had changed since Wellington when it came to batmen.  Perhaps it depended on who the officer was and how they used their batmen?


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## Old Sweat (5 Aug 2011)

My experience was in the Canadian army, with some exposure to the British army in Germany in the sixties. While we tended to have an egalitarian attitude, the Brits - and they were extremely class conscious back then - felt it was right and proper that the lower classes served their social betters. I believe that this extended to using troops as house cleaners and to do the grocery shopping, at least in certain regiments/corps. It would have been unheard of for a Brit officer to have a conversation with one of the mess staff, except to correct a fault, real or perceived. (No slur to The Royals intended by the use of the term.) I recall many conversations between living in Canadian officers and members of the mess staff about sports, cars, housing, the weather, whatever, with no crossing of the discipline line. Now there were exceptions on both sides, and I was disgusted by a Canadian officer of another regiment in his own mess calling the bar man "slave." However, this was the general rule.


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## Edward Campbell (5 Aug 2011)

Old Sweat's experience and training more or less mirror mine, including some experience with the Brits and in the UK.

In some units both electrification and motorization/mechanization changed the need for and role of the batman. At some times, in some units, in the '60s, the batman was a batman/driver in other times (same decade) and places he was a signaller/batman and in still others a plain, ordinary batman.

While it was nice to have someone to help with the everyday _administrivia_ (and the boot and belt polishing) depending on one's role there was (or should not have been) any time for an officer to look after himself in the field ~ when batmen began to disappear the people in the platoon HQ looked after the officer because he was too busy to prepare a meal or rig a hootchie for himself.

The batmen also provided the bulk of the Officers' Mess staff, especially in the UK (and in Germany based UK regiments) where things were, sometimes, a bit spartan.

When I was in a brigade HQ the RCSigs driver/operators looked after the LOs and junior staff officers in the field and we had civilian cleaners/laundresses in garrison and one old fellow (a German civilian) to look after boots, belts and uniforms. HQ 1 (BR) Corps in Bielefeld had civilian 'helpers' for staff officers (living in and living out) in garrison and RSigs driver/operators looked after staff officers in the field.


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## The Bread Guy (5 Aug 2011)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> .... In some units both electrification and motorization/mechanization changed the need for and role of the batman. At some times, in some units, in the '60s, the batman was a batman/driver in other times (same decade) and places he was a signaller/batman and in still others a plain, ordinary batman.
> 
> While it was nice to have someone to help with the everyday _administrivia_ (and the boot and belt polishing) depending on one's role there was (or should not have been) any time for an officer to look after himself in the field ~ when batmen began to disappear *the people in the platoon HQ looked after the officer because he was too busy to prepare a meal or rig a hootchie for himself* ....


The few times I was a Reserve pl signaler (late 70s-early 80s), I was specifically told this was one of my duties in the field - helping "look after" the platoon commander in just the sort of way you mention.


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## Greymatters (5 Aug 2011)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> My experience was in the Canadian army, with some exposure to the British army in Germany in the sixties. While we tended to have an egalitarian attitude, the Brits - and they were extremely class conscious back then -



I found that a significant number of officers from a wide range of European countries were still very 'class-conscience', even up to about 2002.  Its even more common if you are dealing with members from Middle East and Central Asian countries.  If not along aristocratic lines, then certainly along soldier-officer lines.  I believe that Australians and Canadians are the most relaxed in this regard.


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## willy (5 Aug 2011)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> While we tended to have an egalitarian attitude, the Brits - and they were extremely class conscious back then - felt it was right and proper that the lower classes served their social betters.



I have done a fair bit of Signalling for various Officers over the years, and I've seen both highly positive and highly negative leadership styles set in regards to this particular point.  One incident in particular comes to mind to highlight the positive (and from a British Officer no less):

I was in Afghanistan, attached to a Coy from the Royal Marines.  I was there as a LO/Canadian national systems comms Link, but I was really just an extra body: there was the normal contingent of RM Signallers in the Coy HQ as well.  On one occasion we were up on the rooftop of a compound we'd occupied for the evening, having a particularly hard time getting the satellite shot burned in.  I was up there with all the RM Sigs guys for well over an hour trying to find a way to get the problem sorted out.  In the meantime everyone else went to ground except for sentries, etc.

When we finally fixed the antenna and got down off the roof, we found that the OC had taken the time to lay out all of our sleeping bags for us, and he'd brewed us up some tea.  The fact that he would do that was tremendously impressive to me, and I don't think I'll ever forget it.  Whenever I explain the duties and responsibilities of an Officer's Signaller to some new guy who's never done it before, I now use this example to demonstrate the (ideally) team-based aspect of the relationship.  The Signaller is the Officer's fireteam partner.  They work together as a team.  The Signaller will normally be the one who has the time to do all of the routine administrative tasks that fire team partners do for each other, but in this particular case the roles were reversed and the Officer in question was a good enough guy to lend a hand.  That's how it should work in this day and age.  The idea that there should be any aspect of servitude towards ones' social betters is one that belongs in the past, in my opinion (though at times it still seems to be quite widespread).

Edit: Typo


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny (10 Sep 2011)

Just a question related to this and to willy's post, is it standard practice for the company signaler to serve as the aide to the coy cmdr? When I was an OCdt, I was always assigned as company signaler and besides signals duties, a significant portion of this position was preparing the OC's coffee and meals, his hooch, his bivvy bag/sleeping bags, lighting his cigarettes and so forth. I also brewed coffee for the CSM, the platoon commanders and the platoon warrants and lit their cigarettes if requested. I didn't mind at all because I figured that all OCdts had to do this all as a part of slowly climbing the ladder to being a leader. I kind of saw it as starting at the very bottom rung of the ladder and necessary to help me see the strong teamwork aspect of being an Officer. However, is this practice that common, or is it entirely dependent on the officer leading the Signaler? 

One last note, while it wasn't the most exciting thing to do, having to light cigarettes and brew coffee for my superiors, it was actually pretty cool in a way as it gave me a chance to meet a lot of the Officers and Senior NCOs. Plus it made me an expert at brewing a mean cup of coffee  .


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## chrisf (10 Sep 2011)

Please tell me you're exaggerating when you say you had to light their cigarettes?


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny (10 Sep 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Please tell me you're exaggerating when you say you had to light their cigarettes?



Sadly, it's no exaggeration. 

I only really lit the officers' cigarettes (which wasn't too bad, considering only 2 or so of them smoked), the Senior NCOs saw how ridiculous the whole idea was and lit their own smokes, but I still had to brew their coffee as per the company commander's orders. When I was in the role of Company Signaler, the Senior NCOs always gave me the best advice on what documents to read up on concerning combat procedures and leadership skills much more so than the officers and really helped me out in a few jams. 

*Like I said, it wasn't the most exciting set of tasks, but it gave me a great opportunity to meet seasoned leaders. I chalk it all up to a pretty good learning experience and to this day I still feel as though it was just me having to climb the ladder up from the bottom rung. *


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## Edward Campbell (10 Sep 2011)

The duties of the company signaller are varied, but he is, usually, a bit special - of course he helps the OC (and the CSM) with daily routines, but, as others have said, officers made up their signaller's bedroll on many an occasion and, a fair number of times, I made and served the meal, too.

Basically the Coy CP has a two person team: OC and CSM and the signaller goes with the OC when he leaves the CP - which is often. It was normal, when I worked in 0A to hear Cpl B speaking as 29  because Maj R hated talking on the radio (and we didn't like hearing his stammering, either). We all knew he (Cpl B) wasn't 29, _per se_, but he was C/S 29, he could see and hear what was going on and we treated his messages as what they were - the 'word' from 29. Company signallers are, usually, smart and reliable fellows - the Sergeants' Mess is full of former signallers, for a good reason.

Life was even more complex for the Recce Pl signaller; he was, as often as not, the entire Recce Pl CP crew and he had to filter all the reports and prepare and send succinct, timely and accurate SITREPS to the whole battalion net. He also made sure OC Recce Pl had a hot meal and a place to put his head down when that worthy gentleman made one of his rare visits to his own CP. Depending on the individual, 2IC Recce Pl was either a big help, when he was the best subaltern in the battalion, or a hinderance, when he was a newly joined subaltern who was, _de facto_ understudying the Recce Pl signaller.

The question is: is there anything wrong with making the coffee and rolling out the OC's fart-sack? The answer is; no, of course not; the Coy CP is a team and teammates work together. In a long (35+ year) career, I never saw anyone habitually light someone else's cigarette - of course, when we were in 0A, if I had my lighter out I lit up the signaller, too. (And, almost invariably, I had to give Dave Halfkenny, the Int Sgt, a light to go with the cigarette he bummed because the bugger usually had nothing but the habit.) My point is the same: teams are teams; CP teams are pretty small and close knit. In those days I had a batman who, along with one or two of his mates, looked after the officers and NCOs and signallers in 0A, 74 (the FSCC) and 95 (the Int wagon) because they all worked long, long hours and were bloody tired when they finally got to put their heads down - the head of a signaller needs a place to sleep just as much as does the head of a captain or major.

It, helping out, was never a big deal when I was on regimental duty.


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## chrisf (10 Sep 2011)

[Note: Edited to add a quote, as I realized it appeared I was disagreeing with the comments from E.R. Campbell]



> I still feel as though it was just me having to climb the ladder up from the bottom rung.



No, being expected to brew coffee is one thing, and quite normal if you're assisting staff officers, but being expected to light their cigarettes? 

That's absolute horse excrement.

Anyone who demanded it this day in age, was quite firmly in the wrong.

I assure you, anyone ordering you to light their smokes as a function of your duties is *NOT* a seasoned leader and *NOT* an example you should be following.


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny (11 Sep 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> No, being expected to brew coffee is one thing, and quite normal if you're assisting staff officers, but being expected to light their cigarettes?
> 
> That's absolute horse excrement.
> 
> ...



I wholeheartedly agree. 

This particular officer and I never quite got along, not that it matters, but he had a definite sense of entitlement about him.  I guess he figured a few stripes on his rank pull-on meant that he could do whatever the heck he wanted. I'm out of the CF now, and when I go back, it'll certainly not be to that unit, as that officer is still there, and from what I've heard through the grapevine, has even more clout within that regiment. I hold no grudges against the man; he just pushed the limits of his authority. I soon learned that officers could be a very strange lot with their personalities and leadership competencies widely variable. It still was a learning experience though. I was so green and naive at the time, I figured that it was acceptable since he was the OIC and I was just the FNG OCdt. 

However, there was one particular officer within that regiment who served as my example of leadership to follow. He had commissioned up from the ranks and was an outstanding leader and a great guy. He never hesitated to offer advice and was a definite mentor for me. I recall the first day we met, we got to talking and he asked me my first name, and actually during our future conversations addressed me by my first name. I also remember that we exchanged phone numbers and he told me that if I ever needed help with anything related to preparing for courses or studying procedure/tactics manuals to give him a call and he'd help me out. He was such an exemplary officer, in my opinion, that he should have been given command of the company, but it almost seemed as though he was pushed onto the sidelines.


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## a78jumper (11 Sep 2011)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I am staying in the N lines in Pet, and the age of the building is evident in the sign on the laundry room door: "Batmen's room"
> 
> Evidently the doors have neither been replaced or even painted in quite some time, but this leads to the question; when did the practice of having a Batman end in the Canadian forces?



N101 perhaps.....I lived in that one and I-105  mid 80s and remember seeing those signs even then which struck me as very old school. I did ask a long in the tooth ex RCASC Major I worked for at CABC mid 90s and he told me he had a batman when first commissioned in 1966.

As for shitty jobs I had to make coffee for a LCol arse in NDHQ early 90s as a Captain of eight years when the Major was on the road...in fact he demanded it, and had a hissy first morning it was not made while I was trying to get his notes printed for the DEM. I told the Major when he returned from Bosnia that next time such a demand was ordered up I was going to piss in the pot first....guess it beats battery acid some Patricia WO was the recipient of.


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## Blackadder1916 (12 Sep 2011)

a78jumper said:
			
		

> As for shitty jobs I had to make coffee for a LCol arse in NDHQ early 90s as a Captain of eight years when the Major was on the road...in fact he demanded it, and had a hissy first morning it was not made while I was trying to get his notes printed for the DEM. I told the Major when he returned from Bosnia that next time such a demand was ordered up *I was going to piss in the pot first*....guess it beats battery acid some Patricia WO was the recipient of.



You wouldn't be the first to do so. http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49828/post-440245.html#msg440245


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## Greymatters (13 Sep 2011)

Many supervisors look at the description line of 'perform duties as directed' and think it to mean they can order a subordinate to do any minor task they can think of; even those tasks that leadership and personal dignity usually demands that they should be doing for themselves. 

Its a problem in both the military and the civilian world, but fortunately not a common one IMO...


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## FlyingDutchman (19 Oct 2011)

Batmen fell out of use when they all started slacking off together.


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## Hammer Sandwich (19 Oct 2011)

FlyingDutchman said:
			
		

> Batmen fell out of use when they all started slacking off together.



(SLOW CLAP/RISE FROM SEAT)....

Well played sir.......well played.


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