# Cadet Dress in Public



## NCRCrow

Good Day to all Cadets.

I have a question.

Are Cadets subject to CF dress regs?

I was in my local Canex yesterday and there was a Sea Cadet Corp there.

I noticed Cadet PO's (Male with earrings) Females with Nose Rings and the male cadets, unshaven.

I found this rather appalling........any info


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## Pte. Bloggins

You think that's bad, I once saw a cadet *change* into his uniform on a public, rather crowded may I add, streetcar. What kind of message does this send to the public? 

Yes, yes, I know this was just one individual, but still, you'd think cadets would be taught how to behave in public.

(I would've told him a thing or two but I wasn't in uniform)


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## LAI Master Corpora

I am in the army cadets, and yes we are subject to CF dress regs,but that's in my Cadet Corp, And what I see is that there is and there always will be some cadets that even don't know why they are in the cadets!! And they didn't see their own responsibility when they are in public.    But we try to make them as disciplined as we can.


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## my72jeep

No cadets are not subject to the CF dress regs, but they are used to set a standard. If the cadets you saw were not up to the standard talk to the staff responsible for them.I find cadet unit dress is only as good as the unit WO's and Officers make it.


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## NCRCrow

Thanks for the info, myjeep72.

CIC Officer? The Corp I guess is only good as it leaders.

Maybe a set standard of dress for the Cadets?

I was embarrassed to see the dress of these Sea Cadets. Especially wearing Naval rig.


Crow


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## ouyin2000

cadets (being considered civilians wearing military-like uniforms) are not subject to the same rules and regs as full CF Members, but they do have their own set of standards layed out in the Queen's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Cadet Organization (Queens Regs [Cadets]) and the Cadet Administrative & Training Orders (CATOs)

I try to set my own personal standard as high as i can, and display myself to my cadets in a professional manner, hoping they will pick up a thing or 2 about keeping their uniform clean

I have seen some cadets that don't know what a Coat Hanger is, or decide to not polish their boots. It's really quite annoying.


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## qjdb

males are not allowed to wear ear-rings, and the females are allowed to wear one set of plain studs in the ears, not in the nose, or anyplace else visible.

hair needs to be cut in military style (male) or bunned (female)

Uniform pressed, boots shone.

All the same regs as for the grown-ups.

Basically, it all depends on what their unit is, and how well they enforce it.   Usually, there is SOME lee-way, but only to a point.   We had a new recruit that wouldn't cut his mop of hair, so we just kept on holding his uniform issue, until he got a uniform cut.   After several people explained it to him, and then finally his mother, he got the hint, and got it cut.   It was either that, or he was on his way out the door.

I don't think that it would have been in-appropriate for you to have approached these individuals, and calmly explained what was incorrect.   And, if all else fails, Sea and Air cadets have their unit crests and numbers on their shoulder flashes, so you could always trace them down that way, and send an email to their CO.

Q


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## Saorse

Some of my cadets have literally not worn a uniform to one training night all year, and it's only now that our TO is starting to harp on them something fierce. In public? Don't even try to picture that one  :'(


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## mcpl_spunky

ho yeah ouyin Iknow what yuo mean, some times in my corps there are girls with there elastic showing  boby pins sticing out of there hair and it looks like there bun is about to fall offit almost looks liek the bun is fake and it is just a pin on and the fussy's that some girls have is enough to drive me insane .But  with a wool sock and some good gel i think that thwe girl's hair will be up to standards, but my little guy cadets well there uniform is really good


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## Zedic_1913

mcpl_spunky said:
			
		

> ho yeah ouyin Iknow what yuo mean, some times in my corps there are girls with there elastic showing   boby pins sticing out of there hair and it looks like there bun is about to fall offit almost looks liek the bun is fake and it is just a pin on and the fussy's that some girls have is enough to drive me insane .But   with a wool sock and some good gel i think that thwe girl's hair will be up to standards, but my little guy cadets well there uniform is really good


I love the looks I get when I tell females to fix their hair, since I am a male many of them think I'm not entitled to criticize them.

But on the topic here, I agree with whats been said: the cadets are only as good as the leaders above them.  If a cadet hasn't been taught how to properly wear their uniform and can't look up to the leadership of their superiors of course they're going to look and act like a bag of hammers.


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## my72jeep

qjdb said:
			
		

> males are not allowed to wear ear-rings, and the females are allowed to wear one set of plain studs in the ears, not in the nose, or anyplace else visible.
> 
> hair needs to be cut in military style (male) or bunned (female)
> 
> 
> 
> Q


New to the Female hair is the single braid down the center to mid shoulder or two braids same lenght.


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## Love793

Subject to the same regs as everyone else.  It's up to the chain of command to ENFORCE it, regardless of rank.  Hair cuts, Jewlellery, Hygene all the same as CF Members.  Dress and Deportment is what every one looks at first.  It is also what gives Cadets and CIC a bad name.


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## Thompson_JM

Love793 said:
			
		

> Subject to the same regs as everyone else.   It's up to the chain of command to ENFORCE it, regardless of rank.   Hair cuts, Jewllery, Hygine. the same as CF Members.   Dress and Deportment is what every one looks at first.   It is also what gives Cadets and CIC a bad name.



Agreed.   

I know its been discussed Ad-Nauseum here, however once again today I was reminded of the issue of cadets in CADPAT. Now, I have no problem with cadets in OD's as they have the nice black Cadet rank slip-ons, but there were several cadets today wearing some brand of Frontenac CADPAT with no rank, no slip-ons, and their unit headdress. From 20-30 feet away the only way to tell they were non-military was by their dress and deportment, and it was not something the average civilian would know either...

Once again, though I don't like the idea of them wearing any kind of CADPAT (especially in public), it's not my call. If they want to wear it on their FTX's then I say have at 'er. However when in the public eye they should either be wearing the issued RCACC Uniform or OD's with Slip-ons... OR if youre going to wear FakePAT put some bloody cadet slip-ons on the uniform! 

Guys, Be proud of being a Cadet, and live up to the part. Have some Pride in the way you walk, stand up tall, be proud, don't slouch, and keep in mind that you represent cadets everywhere in the way you dress and act in the public eye. Also keep in mind, you're not in the Reg Army or Reserve yet... all you do when you act like a wanna-be is make yourself look very silly to us military types... 

Like the Rock says guys, know your role... if you're a cadet, please don't act like you're already in the military. Belive it or not, but its quite a step up from a youth movement to being a member of the armed forces... Just like I as a reservist do not go around acting like the authority on everything. Especially to the Reg force members.   As I have no buisness telling someone who does this job for a living how it should be done, when I only do it once a week and twice on Sundays 

Like I said, Cadets, be Proud of who and what you are. And be the best cadet you can. But please..... Remember, You're still a Cadet, when the time comes for you to join the Reserve or Reg Force we will have CADPAT and all that other Gucci Kit ready for you, once you've earned the right to wear that uniform. Remember, Wearing the uniform is a privilege not a right.

Sadly I fear Im preaching to the Chior as the many of the Cadets on these boards display a great deal of professionalism in their actions here, and (I hope) carry it over to their Dress and Deportment when in the public eye. But for those of you who already do this, I thank you sincerely and ask that you do your best to relay this message to your Cadets friends who may need to hear it.
 Cheers and Regards
   Josh


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## my72jeep

I with you but CATO's state that cadets are not to wear the slipons with combats because from a distance they can look like real people. don't go there please. but they are to wear a barsard with there rank on it.
now as for cadets in cadpat thats a whole different shit storm the rules say no but the army cadet league sells them to cadets.


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## NCRCrow

fake cadpats...on Cadets, who belong  to the organization called the CF and DND.

Please enlighten me?

This is wrong!!!


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## Burrows

Cadets do not belong to the CF or DND.  They are a youth organization that encourages an interest in the canadian forces that happens to enforce doctrine similar to the CF as well as being sponsored by the DND.


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## NCRCrow

Formation


46. (1) The Minister may authorize the formation of cadet organizations under the control and supervision of the Canadian Forces to consist of persons of not less than twelve years of age who have not attained the age of nineteen years.

Training, administration, provision and command


(2) The cadet organizations referred to in subsection (1) shall be trained for such periods, administered in such manner and provided with materiel and accommodation under such conditions, and shall be subject to the authority and command of such officers, as the Minister may direct.

Not part of Canadian Forces


(3) The cadet organizations referred to in subsection (1) are not comprised in the Canadian Forces.


Regardless, the Cadets may not be comprised in the CF but are sponsored by the CF, they should dress the part.

CIL Officers do and they should represent the CF interests and set an example. 

Cadets wearing fake CADPAT in public does neither.

Next time I will send a rocket to NDHQ(DCdts). Crow


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## Thompson_JM

the specific example I observed was a Hamilton Infantry unit Cadet Corps member wearing fake Cadpat with his unit's beret... so he looked almost identical to an accuall soldier.  I have a couple questions with this

1. Is he allowed to do this? (my guess is no, but please enlighten me)

2. if he is not allowed, who do i go about reporting this to?


Cheers
   Josh


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## Lexi

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> the specific example I observed was a Hamilton Infantry unit Cadet Corps member wearing fake Cadpat with his unit's beret... so he looked almost identical to an accuall soldier.  I have a couple questions with this
> 
> 1. Is he allowed to do this? (my guess is no, but please enlighten me)
> 
> 2. if he is not allowed, who do i go about reporting this to?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Josh


As far as I know, he is allowed to wear the uniform. After all, it was the corps that sold the CADPAT to him.
However we realise the fact that he wasn't wearing epaulettes, (due to the fact that the current make of the uniforms don't allow it to be so,) and the CO is going to have something done about it.

I don't think cadets in CADPAT is acceptable, like you said, it's one thing to be inspired by the reservists/regs, but it's another thing to try and be them. OD's are just fine in my humble opinion - leave the CADPAT's till you're in the forces. 

Another thing - the CADPAT uniforms seem to have given these certain cadets the notion that they were superior. Plenty of times I was told I couldn't even stand by them cause I was a lesser being, due to the fact that I didn't have CADPAT's or OD's. (Not that fair, is it?  )

My verdict on the issue is... OD's yay, CADPAT's nay.


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## Burrows

It all depends on the cadet really. However that means that the ones who arent responsible crash it all.  If a cadet can wear the uniform with pride, honour, and respect then they should be able to. These people would be the ones to say "Im not in the forces Im a cadet corporal" rather than acting like retards and running around with hippie hair who wouldnt deny being called the army.  I know that if I had the chance then I would wear CADPAT but I would NOT do anything that could cause a bad rep for the forces.

This saturday I had the pleasure of attending a Zone Shooting Competition.  The Burlington RHLI cadet sergeants and above, as well as a CI showed up in frontenac CADPAT and proceeded to act like retards.  This caused my team to shake our heads in disbelief as we were the only other corps in combats (OD's) and these people were displaying a lack of professionalism that made me want to smack them upside the head... Including a CI smoking around a cadet =/


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## NCRCrow

I do not care in the field , wear what is warm and comfortable. 

My grief is that the average citizen in a public place does not know the difference between CADPAT Cadets and the Regs.

When I was in Petawawa in the 80's the Army Cadet Corp (the Airborne affilated one) was outstanding.

 I have never in my life seen such a professional group of young people. These Cadets dress and deportment made some of us regs put an extra layer of polish on our boots.

I do not like to see Cadets Corps named after Battle Honours(any) being loud and unruly and unkept.

I believe in the Cadet program, maybe my grief should be with the CIL officers.

Next time I see it, I will say something.

Crow


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## Burrows

Its no longer CIL it is CIC.


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## Saorse

At the same time, we have all no doubt been guilty of a showing of improper dress while in public to some degree. 

Remember where you came from is all: better to point out the error to a cadet than to shove it down his or her throat.  

(Not that anybody would, I'm just saying  )


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## NCRCrow

CFAO's say CIL, and thats what I go by.

Have a great summer


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## Zedic_1913

However it seems that CF recognizes the cadet officers are part of the Cadet Instructors Cadre (CIC), which is an official branch of the Reserves.


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## Burrows

NCRCrow said:
			
		

> CFAO's say CIL, and thats what I go by.
> 
> Have a great summer



Shows how up to date they are.


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## QORvanweert

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Cadets do not belong to the CF or DND.   They are a youth organization that encourages an interest in the canadian forces that happens to enforce doctrine similar to the CF as well as being sponsored by the DND.


Amen to that. Someone should make a point of telling this to cadets so that they stop thinking that they are part of the CF.


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## Zedic_1913

This is something that should be covered in cadet training, however there are always people who will act or consider themselves a member of the CF.  From what I have observed, A majority of cadets understand that they are cadets and not members of the CF ... but there are always a few that make the entire system look bad.


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## Scott

Here's a point to consider, one that was always impressed upon me while I was in Cadets:

While wearing the uniform you are representing your Cadet unit and the CCM as a whole. The CCM tries to foster an interest for the CF within our youth. So, by extension and to some degree you are representing the CF. There are those out there who do not differentiate between actual CF members and Cadets and so one should carry themselves in a manner becoming of the uniform at all times. There are also those people that do not know that Cadets are not a part of the CF and, therefore, expect the same manner of deportment out of a Cadet as they do an adult. Make sense?

I had the advantage, or disadvantage at some times, of having a father who served 25 years in the CF. If I were to try to leave the house for a night of training with the Cadets and had not taken care of my uniform properly he was the first to point it out for the reasons noted above.


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## Saorse

I totally see your point, and I totally agree. To some extent, cadets and the Forces are very closely related, if not by blood, then by marriage. To express pride in a cadet uniform does give cadets and the Forces a good showing, and reverse-wise if the uniform is not handled properly.

Great point.


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## Love793

Dress and deportment is a leadership issue.  It starts at the top.  In the 'real World", it's the responsibility of the RSM or his/her Sergeants Major to enforce.  In the cadet world it has to start at the CO and work its way down.  CIC officers must ensure they are dressed and act properly as well as that their CI's are dressed and act appropriately.  The cadets will see this (Leading by example), and should emulate it.  Cadet RSMs then should run with the ball, and ensure that dress, haircuts and conduct are acceptable.  Eventually, it will filter down.


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## Saorse

Seems in my corps, there's not enough Brita filters in the world to make some cadets actually _ wear_ their uniforms.


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## Love793

We have the same problem, with the corps I work with.  Fortunately, they're starting weed out the dead weight.


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## Saorse

If we weed out dead weight, our corps will follow suit.

Cadets in my corps just don't accept consequences. I don't mean being verbally assaulted for no reason at all, but if a cadet shows up without a uniform, and the TO calls him over for a second to ask where his uniform is, he'll run home crying. That's a 100% legible account of what happened last week, so not only do we now have a cadet without a uniform, but we have an angry mother, a cadet leaving the grounds on a training night that is still our responsibility, and a lot of cadets wondering why they still have to wear their uniform.

Some cadets just aren't in cadets to engage in all it's about, and all it offers. There are different reasons for different cadets, but every cadet just does not have the same care and passion for the organization as others, and that can become hard to teach.


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## Love793

Remind them it's a "Club", play by the rules or we kick you out.  You'll have to put up with some flack from the parents, but eventually, they figure out it's not a DND sponsored babysitting program.


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## Saorse

Nothing against the proper way to do things, but our corps cannot afford to be getting kicked out. We just need to teach these cadets proper... etiquette, for lack of a better term.


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## primer

I had the opportunity to send out 8 Cadets to go on a FTX with 33 MP PL here in Ottawa. I had one Cadet that had CADPAT,with that uniform on I could not tell the difference between him or other members of the forces. I told him if he wanted to go on this EX he was to wear his OD Greens so My staff and the staff of the Res could tell the difference in a time of need.

I know that Cadets want to wear this new uniform. It must be th K.L.F thats all it can be


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## ouyin2000

one night i had one of my Platoon Warrants show up without a uniform on, and she claimed to have just forgotten

I told her to sit off to the side of the parade square and replaced her with one of my MCpls for the night.

If a cadets does not accept the consequences of their actions (on inactions), and does not learn from their mistakes, I do not have time to deal with them

I have a corps with over 40 cadets registered (with maybe 27 a night regularly). I have other things to do than deal with 1 14 year old who does not want to participate to the full extent. The cadet program is to develop in youth leadership responsibilities, physical fitness, and stimulate an interest in the CF....We are not here to babysit.

I realise that for some corps it may be hard to recruit (be it small town or a general disliking for cadets) but the only way I have seen fit to deal with constant dead weight, is to just drop it.

In my old corps, we had 2 cadets (twins) who's parents literally forced them to come. They were routinely out of uniform, or showing up in unpolished boots and mops of hair. We struggled along for a whole training year with them, and actually sent one of them off to their 2 week basic course (which they failed horribly) In the next September, the CO sat down with their parents and described the situation, and explained that they had 1 month of leniency for them to shape up, or they would be removed from the program

needless to say, they were removed.

after that, the general morale of the corps raised greatly, and the other cadets in the same age range as these 2 bacame much happier and more participative...learning more and becoming great cadets.


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## Saorse

Out of pure curiosity... a 14 year old Platoon Warrant?


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## ouyin2000

no my mistake, i used the 14 year old statement as a general one


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## Saorse

I guess I'm too picky. 

Well, maybe we just have to do that if the occasion calls for it; see what transpires.


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## ouyin2000

dont get me wrong, i am all about giving cadets a fair chance to change themselves and conform to the regulations...but my leniency only goes so far

do your own thing. Issue verbal warning, written warning, extra duties, anything you can think of...you should only remove the cadet permanently as a last resort


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## Saorse

We've been at a last resort for months.


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## ouyin2000

well bring it up through your Chain of command that someone needs to put their foot down


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## Saorse

We only know have begun to acquire officers willing to do so. Something might finally occur for the better.


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## thorbahn

I know very little about cadets, but sometimes their practices cause me to raise an eyebrow. On my weekend BMQ the other day, there was a group of Cadets at the base for some occasion or another. Half of them were dressed in uniform (one with a blob of chocolate sauce down the front  ;D) and half in civvies, formed up marching around.


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## NCRCrow

are Cadets (while at Cadets functions/parades/camps/trips etc) allowed to smoke?


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## condor888000

[quote author=CATO 13-22]
SMOKING POLICY

3. To promote a safe and healthy environment
free of tobacco smoke, cadet corps/squadron
Commanding Officers must ensure that the
following guidelines are followed:

a. continuing education program at
corps/squadron level to quit smoking is
to be encouraged;

b. smoking during instruction is
prohibited;

c. breaks for the purpose of smoking
during cadet activities are to be
discouraged;

d. the selling of tobacco products at cadet
canteens and messes is prohibited;

e. smoking during parade nights and other
training activities:

(1) in DND buildings is prohibited,
and

(2) in non-DND buildings is to be
discouraged; and

f. all personnel are to be encouraged to
refrain from smoking in the presence of
cadets.


CADET SUMMER TRAINING CENTRE
(CSTC)

4. The above guidelines for cadet corps/
squadrons must apply in all CSTCs. Because of
the intense nature of the training offered during
the summer at CSTCs, the Commanding Officers
are encouraged to implement policies to reduce
smoking by cadets and to provide a smoke-free
environment. Existing federal law prohibits the
sale of tobacco products to minors. In keeping
with the intent of this law, smoking by cadets in
CSTCs is to be discouraged. In addition, cadets
under the age of 16 shall obtain the written
authorization of their parents/guardians before
they will be permitted to smoke at a CSTC. This
policy should be widely disseminated and
included in all CSTC Joining Instructions in
order to prevent any misunderstanding by cadets
attending summer training.

5. Particular areas shall be designated and
identified as smoking areas. In addition, where
possible the areas shall be separately designated
for cadets, staff cadets or non-cadet personnel.
[/quote]

So, it should be discouraged at all times. Not permitteed, in class, in a DND building, and breaks to allow it are bad. If cadets are under 16 they need parental consent to smoke at camp, over 16 they don't, and you cannot buy tobacco products at any cadet run facility.

Now, that's the CATO, if a CO wishes they may be tougher, ie: no smoking at corp/sqn, which is what is the rule at my sqn.


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## ouyin2000

there is to be no smoking for course cadets or staff cadets at a summe training center at any time. period.

for officers/CIs it is to be discouraged, and if they must, they are to be out of view of the cadets.

i believe this policy is extended to the home corps as well


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## condor888000

Untrue. Eastern still permits it when the conditions mentioned in my first post are met. Other regions may be different however...


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## ouyin2000

ok then its a Pac Region specific  policy

i still think its a good one


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## condor888000

Yeah it's definatly a good policy and I wish it was in effect over here as well.....


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## Saorse

My CO has laid his views out in stone before every weekend: anyone got smoking, in his eyes, faces at least a demotion and at the most, total dismissal from the corps, if at an illegal age. This thus includes every cadet.

To date, in my 3 years, we've had but 1 incident.


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## BandO

Greetings all, I just have to say that I agree with everyones point of view on Cadet Dress Standards. Its a hard one to keep reined in at times. I always try to stress to my cadets that although they are not members of the CF, they are still in the public eye representing the CF, and because of this they must always be above reproach. I wish I had some words of wisdom but thats all I got...lol

See you in the Countermarch,


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## rms

Okay,

I have to give my two cents now on Cadet dress.  

First off, when I was a Cadet, we wore the Regiment's (PPCLI) cap badge and we would not do anything to tarnish or discrace that cap badge.  Secondly, I was one of three females in my corps and if ANYTHING was wrong with my dress or hair, I would hear about it multiple times a parade night until it was corrected.

As has been said before, it all comes down to leadership and pride.  We were taught the Regiment's history (I can still remember most of it, 12 years later!) and we knew that we were representing the unit to the public, as the general public only sees a uniform and maybe the shoulder titles.  We were also very fortunate to have staff from the Regiment itself come to instruct us.  We were made to feel like part of the Regimental family and that made us feel like we had a standard to live up to.

As a serving member of the CF nowadays, I have cringed at the site of some cadets state of dress, or should I say, state of undress (no tunic, head dress and shirt not tucked in just about sent me on a rant).

For the most part, Cadets are proud of their uniform and wear it in a manner that reflects their pride.  It's just those few who stick out that we would dearly love to have "shape up or ship out".

rms


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## Buschgirl427

A number of people have a bias opinion about what branch of military is better (army, air, or sea) ,and there are reserves who feel they are more superior to the Cadets.

It is how a cadet wears their uniform that reflects their personal pride in their corps and their units. If you don't like ensuring dress and deportment exceeds standards, then don't stay involved in these activities. when a person who  takes no pride in their uniform, it ruins the reputation that the hardworkers set, and that hurts. In any military program, " One bad apple can ruin the whole bunch"  :'(


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## Redeye

Buschgirl427 said:
			
		

> A number of people have a bias opinion about what branch of military is better (army, air, or sea) ,and there are reserves who feel they are more superior to the Cadets.
> 
> It is how a cadet wears their uniform that reflects their personal pride in their corps and their units. If you don't like ensuring dress and deportment exceeds standards, then don't stay involved in these activities. when a person who   takes no pride in their uniform, it ruins the reputation that the hardworkers set, and that hurts. In any military program, " One bad apple can ruin the whole bunch"   :'(



I don't know if "superior" is the term - though I guess it is - remember, we are soldiers/sailors/airmen who are trained and qualified to do our jobs, we don't especially liek being compared to Cadets - you are a youth organization, and a vital one that deserves the support of your sponsoring units, but you are not "us."

That said, the dress and deportment of some cadets in the public eye makes me sick.  It is a disgrace to my regiment to see some of them in public.  There are, however, a number of cadets with whom we share our armoury who turn out very well every night, better than some soldiers even, and who truly honour the Regiment.  Fortunately they do work hard to motivate their subordinates to do the same.

When I was an Air Cadet many years ago, you could not smoke, period.  If you were seen smoking, even out of uniform, you were finished, it was that simple.  The concept of allowing cadets at camp to smoke "with parents' permission" is pretty ridiculous, since it is essentially condoning an illegal activity - even with permission (which I'd love to see these kids get!), how are they to procure cigarettes without breaking the law?!

All of you who are Cadet NCOs willing to set the example and enforce dress and deportment standards, keep at it, and good luck.  You can only benefit the Cadet movement!


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## ouyin2000

Redeye said:
			
		

> When I was an Air Cadet many years ago, you could not smoke, period.   If you were seen smoking, even out of uniform, you were finished, it was that simple.   The concept of allowing cadets at camp to smoke "with parents' permission" is pretty ridiculous, since it is essentially condoning an illegal activity - even with permission (which I'd love to see these kids get!), how are they to procure cigarettes without breaking the law?!


This is not so anymore. All cadet summer training centers in BC (and i believe everywhere) have now banned any and all tobacco products from the camp grounds by any cadet. Only the officers and staff (not staff cadets) are permitted to smoke, and it must be in an area that is not visible by cadets.

http://www.cadets.net/pac/images/photo_feature/2003/no_smoking/no_smoking_e.asp

The way it used to happen, is that the cadets must have a written smoking permission form from their parents, and the only way they were allowed to procure the tobacco products is if their parents bought it for them

I am quite happy that they changed this rule, as it helps to promote the physical fitness and healthy lifestyle part of the Canadian Cadet Movement


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## condor888000

I haven't heard any change in the CSTC policy here. I'll keep my ear to the ground and post if I do figure it out. But as far as I know still permissable in Eastern.....wish otherwise........

EDIT: Just noticed the link seems to imply pac only.....should have read it first.... :-[


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## Saorse

Even if the rules once allowed this, it has always been, "You smoke, You float," around here: our cheap plug on being expelled from the Corps with a cheap pitch against Sea Cadets. (No offence intended, just explaining our CO's views  )


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## Ltmel

Cadets are subject to their own dress regs as laid out in CATOs and QR&Os(cadets).  My question is this;  I have not seen any updates recently, however I have seen females with the braids and such. I have seen the updates to the CF dress regs, but Pretty sure this is not approved for cadets.  Any Comments?


----------



## condor888000

Braids are good to go for air cadets. See page 5 of Annex F in the provided link.

http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=55-04

Not sure for the other elements....


----------



## Love793

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Braids are good to go for air cadets. See page 5 of Annex F in the provided link.
> 
> http://www.cadets.ca/support/cato-oaic/intro_e.asp?cato=55-04
> 
> Not sure for the other elements....



It should be common across the board.


----------



## Saorse

Braids were allowed at my ACR, it if helps clear up any of the matter!


----------



## Jonny Boy

WO Saorse said:
			
		

> Braids were allowed at my ACR, it if helps clear up any of the matter!


i personally do not like the braids. they do not look sharp like someone with their hair in a bun.


----------



## 3rcr_duhamel

Cadets HAVE to be clean shaven, male cadets who wear earings must either take it out or put a band-aid over in when in uniform.  Hair for males must be short and not touching the ears and hair for females is in a bun or above th collar on their uniform.

 Fallschirmjager


----------



## ouyin2000

go read the CATOs bucko...



			
				3RCR_duhamel said:
			
		

> Cadets HAVE to be clean shaven, male cadets who wear earings must either take it out or put a band-aid over in when in uniform.


Male cadets are not permitted to wear earings...at all. No questions about it. Females are permitted to wear only 1 gold or silver stud in the lobe of each ear. No questions about it.



			
				3RCR_duhamel said:
			
		

> Hair for males must be short and not touching the ears and hair for females is in a bun or above th collar on their uniform.


As I said, go read the CATOs, and you will understand exactly what is and is not acceptable.


----------



## condor888000

Love793 said:
			
		

> It should be common across the board.


Yes it should but unfortunatley the air cadet regs were just updated and to my knowledge the others haven't been yet....
The ones for Sea Cadets date to April 1993, the Army Cadets to Jan 1994, while the Air Cadet ones were updated in Mar 2005. As the braids were just put into the regs last year or the year before they wouldn't be in the Army/Sea CATO's, or at least they shouldn't. And I don't remember them being in them.


----------



## cpl-cam

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> i personally do not like the braids. they do not look sharp like someone with their hair in a bun.


I completely agree, expessially when doing drill...hair everywhere! I'm all for updating to keep Cadets relevent and in touch with today's youth but you need to draw the line. What's next, guys can have long hair aslong as it's braided?! The hippies are taking over and I don't like it! 

To quote Eric Cartman, "Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad. I hate hippies! I mean, the way they always talk about "protectin' the earth" and then drive around in cars that get poor gas mileage and wear those stupid bracelets - I hate 'em! I wanna kick 'em in the nuts!"


----------



## Burrows

It doesn't matter if you like it or not.  Those are the rules and they are to be followed.


----------



## Jonny Boy

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> go read the CATOs bucko...
> Male cadets are not permitted to wear earings...at all. No questions about it. Females are permitted to wear only 1 gold or silver stud in the lobe of each ear. No questions about it.



well one question. is it not supposed to be only gold studs? there is a thing called uniformity


----------



## qor556

I just love cadets at my school that parade around wearing their OD's from time to time.. a good laugh. I haven't said anything, I will let them have their little fun.

Anyways, I have recently realized the cadet program should not be looked down upon. It is created by the very smart people in our government to take children while they are young and influenceable, stress military values and procedures, physically condition them, while at the same time giving them the "high" they get from commanding other kids. Then they are introduced to the "cool stuff" the military does eg. firing the C7, rappelling, NAV. In turn, this will hopefully one day drive them to actually join the military... why else would the government sponsor a program like this? "To keep them off the streets" nah, they (gov't) are in it for their own gain. 

Hmm, had to get this off my mind... Don't get me wrong, I have met quite a few ex-cadets in the military that are excellent troops.

Am I off topic? Well then, ignore last.


----------



## Blakey

> (I would've told him a thing or two but I wasn't in uniform)


1.Why would you not being in uniform preclude you from informing this individual that THERE IS SOMETHING INHERENTLY WRONG with changing into his uniform on a form of PUBLIC transportation???


> From 20-30 feet away the only way to tell they were non-military was by their dress and deportment,


2.Seems easy enough for me, must be the prepubescent looks that tip me off....


> the specific example I observed was a Hamilton Infantry unit Cadet Corps member wearing fake Cadpat with his unit's beret... so he looked almost identical to an accuall soldier.


See #2


----------



## cpl-cam

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter if you like it or not.  Those are the rules and they are to be followed.


Never said I wasn't going to follow the rules :



			
				2332Piper said:
			
		

> But just for you, I'll dig out the old tin foil hat just in case.


Ah yes, the tin foil hat, it has served me well in the past... stopping MLB from reading my mind.

Half of my rant was sarcasm... I really hate hippies, I really think they're trying to take over and I really don't like braids but oh well, life goes on.


----------



## old medic

Regarding cadet uniforms, this keeps coming up here, so I'll repost this from a previous thread:

I refer you to Army Cadet bulletin 04-008 from the Regional Cadet Support Unit (Pacific)
which says (link to pdf document at bottom) ;

" ........   Cadets may continue to purchase new or used military-style field dress from surplus stores or use suitable civilian clothing.  Some Corps Sponsor Committees have elected to help cadets acquire military pattern field dress. While the use of the old style olive drab "combat" clothing is acceptable, in such cases, cadets *must* also wear an armlet (brassard) that has the RCAC badge attached.  Cadet Rank and Affiliated Unit shoulder flashes also may be attached to this armlet.

The Army office of the RCSU (Pacific) continues to strongly discourage the use of Canadian Forces CADPAT (including imitation) by Army Cadets.  This pattern of clothing makes it difficult to distinguish cadets from members of the regular and reserve force and may cause confusion when CF members are present. CADPAT is a restricted clothing pattern intended solely for CF personnel and it is issued only to members of the CF (including CIC). Allowing cadets (or Civilian Instructors) to wear "acquired" CADPAT is a violation of CF policy. *Allowing cadets to wear military style clothing that closely resembles CADPAT also would be a violation of the spirit of that policy.*   ......... "


http://www.regions.cadets.ca/pac/armcad/pdf/ACB%2004-008%20TEMPORARY%20CLOSUR.pdf


----------



## ouyin2000

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> well one question. is it not supposed to be only gold studs? there is a thing called uniformity


nope, gold or silver, but they must be a pair, IE not gold in 1 ear and silver in the other

And old medic, i agree with what Pac Reg has stated there completely. my cadets keep asking me if they are allowed to wear CADPAT if they manage to get some (or look alikes), and i keep discouraging them from it. We have a couple of great surplus stores here in Victoria and surrounding areas, that sell the regular OD combats for a much cheaper price than CADPATs, and they're just as good as many CADPAT combats you could find


----------



## Jonny Boy

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> nope, gold or silver, but they must be a pair, IE not gold in 1 ear and silver in the other



oh OK. i always thought it was only gold studs.


----------



## sgt.pongo

I am in the same corps as mcpl_spunky, and I have to agree with her my females hair is disgusting. I along with her and the other female Seniors offer help to them but getting them to accept it is rather hard. however I did notice a large improvement throughout the training year. When it came time for our ACR my females hair was great, only a few had to get fixed. however i disagree with her on the fact that my male cadets hair is good, I shall have to say that for the most part it is good. Next year I am hoping that it shall improve. As for the fact of cadets displaying themselves like that in public, it is a major disgrace to their corps as well as them selves. I am very proud of my cadets because the Seniors rarely have to speak to them about their conduct while in public.


----------



## Saorse

For the troubles we have on training nights, we're pretty good in public. In Judique, two cadets showed up to a Remembrance Day ceremony without uniform. They were discharged from the Corps the next day!


----------



## sgt.pongo

well if my cadets show up to a ceremony with out a uniform they better be in black and white or else they wont be aloud to do it but they show up in uniform most of the time, or they just don't show up.


----------



## armygurl_557

We have problems with uniforms at my corps, because many parents have had one child in cadest, who was an amazing cadet, and put their other kids in it years later, against their own wishes. Many parents also use cadets as a diciplinary program, so a cadet will show up once every 2 or 3 weeks, saying "I failed math so my mom sent me here." If a cadet doesnt want to be in cadets, but has no chioce, they tend not to follow the rules so they never show up in their uniform. 

Or they just want to go and see their friends and hate wearing the uniform, so they dont.  What we do to get them to wear the uniform is give them PT Gear for the night, extra duties and they have defaulters parade that night, But Our Defaulters Parade still has about 20 cadets a night.


----------



## Sgt_McWatt

Now this topic has been beaten to death. But all I see are opinions. Does any one at all have any evidance pointing either way about cadets beind allowed to wear CADPAT or not?


----------



## Springroll

Back in the day('91-'94) we were permitted to wear the olive combats on weekend exercises only. I think if it is available in your local surplus shop, and the kids buys it, then there is no problems. I didn't have any combats for the first 6 months that I was in and we were allowed to wear civvie clothes provided they were dark and not jeans!

2483 PPCLI strictly enforced the dress reg's for the cadets. When I first joined I thought they were just being anal, but after we kicked butt at the drill competition that year, I understood why they were the way they were. If you take pride in your appearance and in your uniform, it shows. You begin to have alot of self confidence and in turn you have awesome cadets. 

When I transferred to 2136 C Scot R, they were the same way. I think things were a little easier, but they still enforced the dress code. If you did not have a uniform you were to wear dress pants and a dress shirt, and if you owned one, a tie. Once I had my own platoon I turned into one of those strict NCO's that didn't let anything get by her(had too since I was the only female). 

If cadet corps are slacking off the ways you guys are describing now, then I am going to shop around for one that isn't before signing my son up for anything.


----------



## Peace

old medic said:
			
		

> Regarding cadet uniforms, this keeps coming up here, so I'll repost this from a previous thread:
> 
> I refer you to Army Cadet bulletin 04-008 from the Regional Cadet Support Unit (Pacific)
> which says (link to pdf document at bottom) ;
> 
> " ........     Cadets may continue to purchase new or used military-style field dress from surplus stores or use suitable civilian clothing.   Some Corps Sponsor Committees have elected to help cadets acquire military pattern field dress. While the use of the old style olive drab "combat" clothing is acceptable, in such cases, cadets *must* also wear an armlet (brassard) that has the RCAC badge attached.   Cadet Rank and Affiliated Unit shoulder flashes also may be attached to this armlet.
> 
> The Army office of the RCSU (Pacific) continues to strongly discourage the use of Canadian Forces CADPAT (including imitation) by Army Cadets.   This pattern of clothing makes it difficult to distinguish cadets from members of the regular and reserve force and may cause confusion when CF members are present. CADPAT is a restricted clothing pattern intended solely for CF personnel and it is issued only to members of the CF (including CIC). Allowing cadets (or Civilian Instructors) to wear "acquired" CADPAT is a violation of CF policy. *Allowing cadets to wear military style clothing that closely resembles CADPAT also would be a violation of the spirit of that policy.*     ......... "
> 
> 
> http://www.regions.cadets.ca/pac/armcad/pdf/ACB%2004-008%20TEMPORARY%20CLOSUR.pdf



Dude, you gotta read the thread before you necro-post like that.  The anwsers you seek shall be found by looking.


----------



## Slim

> the specific example I observed was a Hamilton Infantry unit Cadet Corps member wearing fake Cadpat with his unit's beret... so he looked almost identical to an accuall soldier



Cadets are not soldiers. there fore they should not dress like soldiers.

No combat uniforms are required. Cadets don't need them and shouldn't have them.


----------



## Burrows

Alright,  this HAS gone on long enough.

Armyboi,

If you read her post entirely, she states they are having a hard time getting cadets to ACCEPT the help.


For the records the CATO's state that cadets are permitted to wear CF Combat Dress.  There is no colour or pattern specified.

I'm not going to say yay for CADPAT or nay for CADPAT, what your unit chooses to enforce IAW the CATO is up to them.  I personally have no problem with my cadets wearing CADPAT as our surplus store seems to have exhausted everything but combat lingerie.  As long as they don't wear the flag, and their rank is the issued cadet slip-on, I see no reason to be anal retentive.


----------



## armyvern

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Alright,   this HAS gone on long enough.
> 
> For the records the CATO's state that cadets are permitted to wear CF Combat Dress. There is no colour or pattern specified.
> 
> I'm not going to say yay for CADPAT or nay for CADPAT, what your unit chooses to enforce IAW the CATO is up to them.   I personally have no problem with my cadets wearing CADPAT as our surplus store seems to have exhausted everything but combat lingerie.   As long as they don't wear the flag, and their rank is the issued cadet slip-on, I see no reason to be anal retentive.



Let me just say this as a Regular Force Supply Tech:

Cadets are not entitled to wear cadpat. Which is known as CF "operational dress" not of CF combat dress.
CIC Officer's of the Army kind, are entitled to 2 sets and are able to wear them.

Air and Sea CIC officers are entitled to ZERO sets. I can issue to them on a DND638 Temporary Loan Card while they work for the summer at an Area Cadet Trg Facility, but I get them back as soon as summer camp is done.

If you are purchasing "cadpat" downtown...it is not the "real" stuff, as our cadpat is a highly controlled item that we shred before disposing of just so that it doesn't make it out onto the street for everybody in NATO to wear.

Further to that, as a controlled item, if you do manage to get your hands onto a "real set" and wore them in my presence, I would immediately begin steps (via MPs) to have them removed from your ownership and an invest as to how you managed to get them in the first place, being that they are a controlled item to which you are not entitled to possess. 

So realisticlly, the only way that a cadet should have "cadpat" on is if he/she borrowed his/her mom or dad who happens to be entitled to it.

By the way, entitlement should be releasded shortly for Army cadets and our old CF combat dress.

So, I'm not trying to give cadets a hard time here, just reflect upon what your regulation's actually read (CATOs). Our cadpat is operational dress not combat dress and therefore the reson why you shouldn't be wearing them. The CF combat dress is olive green combats, CF operational dress is cadpat. 
I once was a cadet:
2647 RCAC Oromocto (2 Royal Canadian Regiment) (82-87)
Attended:
Camp Argonaut: CL, CLI
CSTS Borden: Athletic Leadership
CFB Valcartier/Pangnirtung: Arctic Indoctrination
Camp Argonaut: Wilderness Staff Sgt
Camp Argonaut: WO PERI Staff
Gold Star and Wreath, Marksman, Standard First Aid

What courses do the Army cadets still have? I know they can still do their Basic Para as my husband has instructed many of you at CPC Trenton.


----------



## Slim

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Yeah, if everyone else is playing poser by wearing high-speed soldier gear at paintball games/airsoft, why not cadets?



If cadets are striving to be mature and professional in everything thay do then I would say that tht's a good enough reason right there...the other is that, if you are wearing CADPAT and its found to be the real stuff, you're in for a rough time from the MP's, your CO and probably your parents, once they find out how their son/daughter is under investigation by NIS!


----------



## Slim

2332Piper said:
			
		

> "Son, you better have a darn good explanation for the black helicopters circling our house"



I don't think we have enough helicopters to paint black...More likely a staff car or a rental from Budget... ;D


----------



## ouyin2000

Slim said:
			
		

> I don't think we have enough helicopters to paint black...More likely a staff car or a rental from Budget... ;D


We have enough....they're just not air worthy >.<


----------



## mavericknm

Theres always a loop hole in everything. http://www.180mosquito.ca/180.htm. Check it out and you will understand that having non army cadets in CADPAT isn't bad. I would really like to see more CADPAT integrated into the cadet system. Even if it is only for special events, theres a certain pride that cadets get from being able to touch the little squares. I actualy am confused with the current CATOs. The DND puts so much into the cadet system so it makes sense for them to ensure cadets look the best and give a good impression towards the public. Its kinda sad when I have to wear my OD stuff next to a reservist.


----------



## Slim

mavericknm said:
			
		

> Theres always a loop hole in everything. http://www.180mosquito.ca/180.htm. Check it out and you will understand that having non army cadets in CADPAT isn't bad. I would really like to see more CADPAT integrated into the cadet system. Even if it is only for special events, .



I really do not understand where you people get off thinking that you (cadets) should be ENTITLED  to wear CADPAT?! 

CADETS ARE *NOT* SOLDIERS!!! THEY DO NOT NEED *COMBAT* UNIFORMS...PERIOD!

The CF issues every cadet corps with perfectly good dress uniforms to wear on parades. As for training if you have to wear OD then that's one thing (i'm even against that to be honest) But CADPAT...forget it. Cadets don't need it, can't get it, and should not be allowed to wear the fake stuff.

End of story.


----------



## Springroll

Slim said:
			
		

> I really do not understand where you people get off thinking that you (cadets) should be ENTITLED   to wear CADPAT?!
> 
> CADETS ARE *NOT* SOLDIERS!!! THEY DO NOT NEED *COMBAT* UNIFORMS...PERIOD!
> 
> The CF issues every cadet corps with perfectly good dress uniforms to wear on parades. As for training if you have to wear OD then that's one thing (i'm even against that to be honest) But CADPAT...forget it. Cadets don't need it, can't get it, and should not be allowed to wear the fake stuff.
> 
> End of story.



I agree that they shouldn't be allowed to wear CADPAT, but if they get their hands on the fake stuff at an army surplus shop, why should they be punished for that? 

If the CF doesn't want them wearing even the fake stuff, than they should issue the field kit that they want them to wear.


----------



## Slim

Springroll said:
			
		

> I agree that they shouldn't be allowed to wear CADPAT, but if they get their hands on the fake stuff at an army surplus shop, why should they be punished for that?
> 
> If the CF doesn't want them wearing even the fake stuff, than they should issue the field kit that they want them to wear.



And you're basing this statement on what?


----------



## medic65726

Slim said:
			
		

> Cadets are not soldiers. there fore they should not dress like soldiers.
> 
> No combat uniforms are required. Cadets don't need them and shouldn't have them.



Seeing as I like to stimulate some discussion,I am going to disagree here. Let me preface this, I am not presently involved in the Cadet system or the CF. I was a cadet in the early 90's and hung around as a CI for a bit, but moved on to other things. SO what is the purpose of cadets? I remember reading somewhere about fostering interest in the CF:
"What is the purpose of Cadets?
Cadets form a national organization whose purpose is to develop in youth the attributes of leadership, engaged and active citizenship and physical fitness, all within a safe environment that stimulates an interest in the Canadian Forces." http://www.cadets.ca/parent/faq_e.asp?answer=1

I think we forgot about this part back in the mid 90's. When I joined Cadets, senior members would often go on FTX with our affiliated regiment, FNs were the order of the day on range exercises and everyone wore Combats for field training (with the cadet brassard with red rank insignia of course). Then came the air rifles, 22cal seemed all you could get on the range and cadets seemed like Boy Scouts. Hell when I was concurrently in the Scouts Canada System (Scouts, Venturers etc) we went out in the field more, learned more survival skills, and even went to shooting competieitions, only difference seemed that the drill was not quite up to par, I had a tan shirt and scarf as my uniform, and I recall a lot less yelling.

I have had friends in the British Army Cadet Force http://www.armycadets.com and they described a totally different experience. They have a dedicated Cadet weapon, a version of the current service rifle (What ever happend to the C10, the .22cal version of the C7 we were promised back then), are often integrated on affiliated unit exercises, camps may include being an OPFOR for a reserve unit, rides in military AFV/aircraft etc. I know funding becomes a big part of this, but it is not the only thing. What are we afraid of? That some kid may grow up wanting to be a soldier? Sorry but I thought that was the idea.

I think cadets should be properly supplied and it should be seriously pushing them to be interested in an Army career. We know that few will progress to that, but will it not encourage some that could do well in that environment. I'm not getting into the CADPAT argument, but Cadets need combats, and to be in the field getting dirty, on the range learning marksmanship skills, as well asl learning about being a better, disciplined person. The person who was RSM of my Corps when I joined, and her successor went on to RMC, and one of the Sgt.s at the time IIRC joined a local militia regiment. After that it was years before we had anyone off to take their service oath. I wonder why?
Looks like I went a little long with this rant, more like my 4 cents.


----------



## George Wallace

mavericknm said:
			
		

> ........ Its kinda sad when I have to wear my OD stuff next to a reservist.


There is a solution for that.  Join the Reserves!  

As Armyvern has already explained earlier.....the OD stuff is COMBATS.  CADPAT is OPERATIONAL.  If you are a POSER, and just interested in the LCF you deserve all the Police attention you get.

Perhaps it is due to all these Cadets thinking that CADPAT is "Kool" and their buying it and wearing it, that has caused problems like this:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35253.0.html

Why are we rehashing this old topic all over again.  It was closed down several months ago.  None of the arguments from the kiddies have changed.  Regulations are issued to govern these matters.  Let's drop it.


----------



## LF(CMO)

"For those interested, a new Cadet pattern field uniform has been designed and available here in Canada. To see a sample of it and to get a price list plus order form, go to The Army Cadet League of Canada, British Columbia Branch web page at www.armycadetleague.bc.ca"

 The above is very similiar to CF CADPAT.  Unless you see them side by side no one from the Civ side would know the difference.

 CF CADPAT is available from CEL surplus in Morinville to anyone, hunters, Cadets, etc.


----------



## Neill McKay

armyvern said:
			
		

> So, I'm not trying to give cadets a hard time here, just reflect upon what your regulation's actually read (CATOs). Our cadpat is operational dress not combat dress and therefore the reson why you shouldn't be wearing them. The CF combat dress is olive green combats, CF operational dress is cadpat.



If that's the case, I'm curious as to why the supply system makes a distinction between combat dress and operational dress.  Are OD combats still in the system, and being issued for certain purposes while CadPat combats are issued for others?

Also, I believe naval combat dress also fits into the operational dress category, and is certainly authorised for cadets when serving aboard HMC or Coast Guard ships.


----------



## George Wallace

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Also, I believe naval combat dress also fits into the operational dress category, and is certainly authorised  for cadets when serving aboard HMC or Coast Guard ships.



Didn't you just answer your own question?  Authorised when serving aboard Ship would deem it to be an "Operational" role, not playing paintball, or camping in the woods.


----------



## Burrows

24 Hr Stand down.  Take a breather and lets stop the bickering.


----------



## Burrows

Open,  with this.



> ood day,
> 
> The following is from headquarters in Borden. Should give you plenty of clarification on this issue. Remember for your own squadron exercises, your CO makes the determination of what dress will be worn.
> 
> All CADPAT clothing items can be considered "CF Combat Clothing" for the purposes of CATO 55-04. Air cadets who wear a complete set shall wear their blue rank slip-on, and approved cadet headress with RC Air C insignia (Note: the CADPAT field hat and helmet are not approved cadet headdress and shall not be worn by air cadets, options are wedge, blue beret, or issued PT hat).
> 
> Nothing prevents cadets from wearing the Cdn flag on combats (the OG 107 pattern issued to staff and course cadets for summer training purposes comes with the Cdn flag pre-sewn to the sleeve).
> 
> Nothing prevents a cadet from wearing a nametape on combats. An argument could be made that the environmental identifier is a CF Insignia, so it is best cadets have the nametapes made with name only.
> 
> The key issues here are that cadets are suitably attired for both prevailing weather conditions and the type of training being conducted, that cadets in any sort of military clothing are not mistaken for CF or other military personnel, that cadet insignia is only worn by cadets wearing full CF pattern clothing.
> 
> Note that the "high visibility" vests are to be worn "as required", and are therefore at the CO's discretion. Appropriate occasions for wear would be for hikes where trails are shared with ATV/snowmobiles or alongside roadways, training in heavy foliage where it would be easy to lose a cadet, training after sunset where visibility becomes a factor, or any other time high vis is required for safety and/or effective supervision.
> 
> 
> D.A. Wright
> Captain
> Air Training Officer
> RCSU Central



At least this has Central region Air cadets covered.


----------



## Neill McKay

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Didn't you just answer your own question?   Authorised when serving aboard Ship would deem it to be an "Operational" role, not playing paintball, or camping in the woods.



The term Operational Dress has a particular meaning within the dress regs, my reading of which is that it includes (field) combats (regardless of colour or disruptive pattern) and naval combat dress.  However, the quote provided by Mr. Burrows would seem to clear the issue up anyway.


----------



## Peace

It clears it but, but its making me feel odd. I rember when i was in basic i didnt even get to take off my BIG ORNAGE BRASSARD until i was graduated, just so they knew who wasnt a full memeber.  If cadets handled themselfs to the best all the tiem like some cadets already do, then i would be proud to let them share the uniform with us.  But as is 95% of the time the juvinile tendencies of cadets(whom i appretiate for what the cadets are, because i was one) makes a bad impression some times.

Quite recentlly i ran into some army cadets wearing OD in the Canex here in Borden, and they were a sorry bunch acting like children and not as a "cadet" should. On another occasion i was in the JR mess beside A151 and looked up from my plate to see a CWO1 rank on a cadpat uniform , thinking to myself WTF???  I looked up and it was a kid with a mop top and a dirty sanchez un trimmed mustashe.

IF you are gonna wear the digs, which it seems you have the right to by the quote above, Then you must behave accordingly because if some of us cant tell the diff between you sometimes( not me but others) then what do you think the public thinks?  They already have a hard enough time understanding us let alone cadets who ARENT us.  So along those lines,  if hey cant tell and you do something good nobody will care. BUT as we are warrned about the public issue EVERY TIME we are to go into civiland if we mess up the immage is tarnished for EVERY CF member not just the soldier.  The Public sees a uniform NOT a cadet.


Please remind the cadets of this and make them understand, because we all know that there are the "pump" cadets who will slack and jerk around when nobody is looking.  BUT someone is ALWAYS looking.  Please make the cadets understand.  with the flag comes the responsibillity.


----------



## medic65726

Peace, you are absolutely right.
During my years in cadets I remember being reminded of this, and I took this issue very seriously.
Uniform was ealways clean, hair neatly trimmed, facial hair neatly shaved. I understand that kids will be kids, but if they want to run around like children, then a uniform might not be for them.
Trying to impart some level of responsibility, maturity and discipline, should be the utmost focus of all those who influence the cadets, from their parents, CIC officers, CIs and Senior cadets.
I am sure there were times when I was not completely appropriate in my behaviour, but I tried, after all, I was a child. (Well except my last year when I was Cadet RSM, but then again 18 is still usually a child, regardless of what the law says).


----------



## armyvern

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> The term Operational Dress has a particular meaning within the dress regs, my reading of which is that it includes (field) combats (regardless of colour or disruptive pattern) and naval combat dress.   However, the quote provided by Mr. Burrows would seem to clear the issue up anyway.



Actually the quote below has caused more confusion for me as a person who job it is to know clothing regulations and entitlements. As I have PMd Kyle, I have gone to NDHQ for word from the 'horse's mouth' not from a CATO which seems to be in direct contradiction to the published entitlements/authorization to wear cadpat that the CF has to work with. Ultimately NDHQ decides who is entitled to wear a piece of CF kit and their published regulations are the standard. When I have their response, I will post it. 
Being as how, IAW Security Orders, I have to certify that I have Demilitarized it (shredded it) prior to handing it over to CADC for disposal as scrap material (or face the charge/vacation in ClubEd, such as our previous little slip-up in Edmonton caused by disposing of wearable cadpat outside of the CF). And seeing as how cadets are not entitled by scale of issue to be issued it, how could they possibly be authorized to wear it? We can't issue it to them and by regulations it shouldn't be available to be purchased at a surplus store. See now why my confusion continues?  ??? How can one possibly be authorized/allowed to wear something that they are not entitled to, which is not available for issue outside of the CF Supply system and which should not be being disposed of in it's whole state for purchase by non-CF personnel at surplus stores etc?


----------



## condor888000

Armyvern, one major way is because even here in Ottawa, all the stores have issued CADPAT on their shelves. All of them. Some look brand new and some look really really faded. People buy them all the time. And because of the ambigous wording of the CATO, we unfortunatley can claim to be authorized to wear it. As well, many a cadet will go out and buy the fake stuff and wear it. 


			
				CATO 55-04 said:
			
		

> *CF combat clothing. *
> Cadets are authorized to wear CF combat clothing during Sqn survival exercises when authorized by the Sqn CO. A headdress (the wedge or blue beret with the Air Cadet hat insignia, widebrimmed tan summer hat or toque) and also cadet rank slip-ons shall be worn withwith CF combat clothing. CF combat clothing shall not be taken to CSTC. The Sqn CO shall ensure that all cadets wearing military camouflage clothing or civilian look-alike camouflage clothing while participating in Sqn survival exercises can be easily identified in the field through the use of coloured vests as required. Air Cadet headdress, hat insignia and rank slipons shall not be worn with civilian combat pattern clothing (CF look-alike) or any civilian clothing;



As you can see, nothing on whether or not CADPAT is specifically allowed. So, since many don't know theres a difference between Operational Dress and Combat Dress (heck, I just found out by reading this), people wear CADPAT. Just what hapens. Is it right? No. But thats what happens. And some units have standing orders that no cadet is to wear CADPAT. Mine for instance.


----------



## armyvern

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Armyvern, one major way is because even here in Ottawa, all the stores have issued CADPAT on their shelves. All of them. Some look brand new and some look really really faded. People buy them all the time. And because of the ambigous wording of the CATO, we unfortunatley can claim to be authorized to wear it. As well, many a cadet will go out and buy the fake stuff and wear it.
> As you can see, nothing on whether or not CADPAT is specifically allowed. So, since many don't know theres a difference between Operational Dress and Combat Dress (heck, I just found out by reading this), people wear CADPAT. Just what hapens. Is it right? No. But thats what happens. And some units have standing orders that no cadet is to wear CADPAT. Mine for instance.


There is cadpat out there (some even has stock numbers on it that is not REAL cadpat). We have personnel who actually are tasked to surf sites like ebay to watch for the "real" cadpat for sale. There are many "imposter versions" available which all differ from the "real stuff" and we can tell the difference. As to the ambigious wording of the CATO, I will once again point out that it specifcally reads "CF Combat Clothing" and I have NDHQ messages which states that cadpat is NOT CF Combat Clothing but "Operational Clothing" and yes, even we in the Reg Force still have pers in "Combat Clothing" as well. My directives say they are 2 totally different items. It is on exactly this point that I have requested a response from NDHQ. Someone is mis-intrpreting something somewhere (whether it be NDHQ or the Cadet org, I am not sure). Perhaps someone somewhere is assuming that CF Combat dress includes cadpat, and thus the difference in Cadet Unit rules laid down by the CO. Perhaps your CO is aware that cadpat is operational dress not combat dress and therefore is not to be worn. I don't know, but I have endeavoured to find out. I do know that I have written correspondance from Ottawa this past summer that stated in no uncertain terms that I was not authorized to issue anything but OG combats to Camp Argonaut as cadets were not authorized to dress in cadpat.


----------



## armyvern

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Call me old fashioned, but last time I checked DND orders and definitions (combat vs. operational) took precedence over what in written in the CATO's. Remember who's paying the bills and who gets the final say.



I absolutely agree!! That's why I'm going to them for the answer, because ... only they have the answer!!


----------



## sgt_mandal

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Open,   with this.
> 
> At least this has Central region Air cadets covered.



AHHHH you beet me to it......


----------



## condor888000

I am also in total agreement. I was just raising the point that it is possible that some air cadets wear CADPAT because they do NOT understand the difference. Especially since most of them will refer to nothing but the CATO and what their officers say. If those officers are mistaken, or misinformed, or uninformed or just plain don't care, you will see the cadets wearing it. As to the real CADPAT, I will admit, I have never worn a set, but I have seen plenty up close, and I am not attempting to claim to be an expert, but the stores seemed to have the exact item I'd seen on many a soldier. I understand what you are saying, I'm just stating what I saw, I would bet that you're right though.

Now to open a whole other can of worms....are the tacvests controlled to the same degree as the shirts/pants are? Because I have seen one of those up close, held it in my hands, and I've seen the exact item in one of the surplus stores. At least the same item as far as I could tell. All the pockets in the right place, all the fasteners were the same, tag was on it, etc.


----------



## armyvern

Once again, all I can say is... I will wait for the Official Rules from NDHQ as theirs ARE, whether we like them or not, the only rules that count, and no one has authority to contradict their rules. I'm done with this thread and will post the actual NDHQ response to cadets in cadpat as soon as I receive it, whatever it shall be.


----------



## condor888000

Alright, sounds good, thanks a whole bunch for going through the effort to help clear all this stuff up....

You're right and I once more agree Piper, but as long as its on sale where my cadets go for combats, I'd like to know whether or not it is even legal for them to have it in their possesion. Because I can guarentee you, someone will show up with it sooner or later, and I'd like to know what to tell them.


----------



## armyvern

condor888000 said:
			
		

> You're right and I once more agree Piper, but as long as its on sale where my cadets go for combats, I'd like to know whether or not it is even legal for them to have it in their possesion. Because I can guarentee you, someone will show up with it sooner or later, and I'd like to know what to tell them.


Well, I can tell you that all items of military kit which incorporate the cadpat design are highly controlled. If a Supply Tech fails to shred it before he unloads it to CADC for disposal as scrap material...he can GO TO JAIL. So legally, this stuff shouldn't be available in the surplus stores in a wearable or repairable condition. Our CF cadpat has 'a little something extra' that I won't get into for security reasons. There are duplicates out there that do resemble our kit, and they even sew stock number labels into it (which differ from the actual SNs) but they do not contain the "little something extra." 
I am not authorized to wear a Tactical Vest. Only personnel serving at first line units in support of or participating in 'dismounted operations' ie Reg/Res Force Infantry guys etc going to the field are entitled to this piece of kit. I wear the old pattern webbing.


----------



## armyvern

Now, I refer you all to the below Official DND web-site:

When you open the link click on "CTS General Allocation Table" this will list off every unit that is authorized to wear CTS cadpat:

Now scroll to the bottom of the first page and read the footnote:
"Note: This allocation table applies to military personnel only serving either in or in direct support of Land Force Regular and Reserve Units"

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/Entitled_e.asp?Ref=113

No where do I see a single cadet Unit listed as being entitled to wear CTS cadpat. And cadets certainly do not qualify as Regular or Reserve Force Units. So I would argue, that despite the belief that the CATO allows you to wear any item of "combat clothing", this National Entitlement listing, specifically excludes cadets from being allowed to wear CTS Cadpat clothing by virtue of their neither being Reg or Res Force Units..


----------



## Canuckx5

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Good Day to all Cadets.
> 
> I have a question.
> 
> Are Cadets subject to CF dress regs?
> 
> I was in my local Canex yesterday and there was a Sea Cadet Corp there.
> 
> I noticed Cadet PO's (Male with earrings) Females with Nose Rings and the male cadets, unshaven.
> 
> I found this rather appalling........any info



Just to reply to the original post (rather then what the thread seems to have evolved into right now about CADPAT).  I was in Cadets for about a year before I dropped it, and although we were told to have our hair short and not wear excessive jewelry or make-up (if you're a girl), most of the kids there were in cadets as a punishment from their parents (I don't know why, Cadets nowadays isn't exactly hardcore).  But the point is, these kids weren't in cadets cause they wanted to be, so they didn't exactly care about representing themselves in the most disciplined and cadet-like manner, and if the kids at my armory were like that it's very possible that the cadets 'HFXCrow' are talking about were the same way.


----------



## Slim

And people wonder why I'm so against cadets wearing anythihng that looks remotely like a CF uniform!


----------



## The_Falcon

Canuckx5 said:
			
		

> Just to reply to the original post (rather then what the thread seems to have evolved into right now about CADPAT).   I was in Cadets for about a year before I dropped it, and although we were told to have our hair short and not wear excessive jewelry or make-up (if you're a girl), most of the kids there were in cadets as a punishment from their parents (I don't know why, Cadets nowadays isn't exactly hardcore).   But the point is, these kids weren't in cadets cause they wanted to be, so they didn't exactly care about representing themselves in the most disciplined and cadet-like manner, and if the kids at my armory were like that it's very possible that the cadets 'HFXCrow' are talking about were the same way.



If these cadets have such attitudes, it is incumbent on the leadership in the unit (ie the CIC) to either make these kids ship up, or start the process to boot their asses out.  Which I know is kinda hard considering there are some (some not all) CIC who are just as bad when it comes to dress and deportment issues.  You need to get it across to the parents, that cadets are not surrogate parents or babysitters.  When I was still involved with Scouts Canada (not boy scouts, hasn't existed in reality for some time but that is another discussion), we told the parents, we are not parents/babysitters for their kids, if there kids are/were problematic (we would do our best to try and correct thier behaviour, but for the most part it was a lost cause) we would tell them they were no longer welcome, and refused to allow them to register for the following year.


----------



## fourninerzero

Cadets do have dress regs, very similar ones to the reserves and regulars. most of the pictures in the manuals are identical to the ones we get. however, its upto the staff, officers and Sr NCOs of the units to sort their cadets out. typically lack of training, or lack of quality training in the officers leads to lack of quality training to the cadets and such goes the circle of terrible training and deportment.


----------



## Slim

fourninerzero said:
			
		

> Cadets do have dress regs, very similar ones to the reserves and regulars. most of the pictures in the manuals are identical to the ones we get. however, its upto the staff, officers and Sr NCOs of the units to sort their cadets out. typically lack of training, or lack of quality training in the officers leads to lack of quality training to the cadets and such goes the circle of terrible training and deportment.



So, until they do 'clean themselves up' we should take away any and all association with the reg force and the pres...So not to confuse the issue!


----------



## Neill McKay

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Call me old fashioned, but last time I checked DND orders and definitions (combat vs. operational) took precedence over what in written in the CATO's. Remember who's paying the bills and who gets the final say.



CATOs are DND orders.  They're issued on the authority of the Director of Cadets, a colonel-level position in NDHQ.


----------



## Neill McKay

armyvern said:
			
		

> Now, I refer you all to the below Official DND web-site:
> 
> When you open the link click on "CTS General Allocation Table" this will list off every unit that is authorized to wear CTS cadpat:
> 
> Now scroll to the bottom of the first page and read the footnote:
> "Note: This allocation table applies to military personnel only serving either in or in direct support of Land Force Regular and Reserve Units"
> 
> http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Chief_Land_Staff/Clothe_the_soldier/hab/Entitled_e.asp?Ref=113
> 
> No where do I see a single cadet Unit listed as being entitled to wear CTS cadpat. And cadets certainly do not qualify as Regular or Reserve Force Units. So I would argue, that despite the belief that the CATO allows you to wear any item of "combat clothing", this National Entitlement listing, specifically excludes cadets from being allowed to wear CTS Cadpat clothing by virtue of their neither being Reg or Res Force Units.



But as you point out, the table only applies to military personnel, and only to land force ones at that.   Would you argue on the same basis that air force personnel aren't auth. to wear CadPat?   Or is their entitlement to do so perhaps governed by some other document?

Besides that, I think it's important to separate the entitlement to be issued an item from the authority to wear it.   I don't think anyone's arguing that cadets have an entitlement to be issued CadPat (or any other combat-related gear), but there is authority for them to wear it if they were somehow able to get it through legal means.   (The fact that such means may not exist doesn't really affect either issue.)

Five bucks says this will still be a topic of debate from one coast to the other until the day that the last set of OD combats in existence finally gets binned!


----------



## Slim

I believe that it says right in there that a formation, or members of, are allowed to be issued and wear operational dress if currents ops/taskings require it.

No cadet will ever be operationaly tasked to a posn where the wearing of a combat uniform is required due to enviormental conditions.

Now here's my questions. Leaving aside the issue of 'Hey its cool look at me' factor. Why do people feel that cadets should be allowed to wear CADPAT? Please be specific in your answers.


----------



## Neill McKay

Slim said:
			
		

> Now here's my questions. Leaving aside the issue of 'Hey its cool look at me' factor. Why do people feel that cadets should be allowed to wear CADPAT? Please be specific in your answers.



Outdoor adventure training is part of all three cadet elements' training programmes, and in fact forms the core of the army cadet programme.   There is a need for a field uniform for cadets; the cadet DEUs are obviously unsuitable for the field.   Combats are perfect for it, having been designed for just that environment.

So why CadPat vice OD?   Because the latter is no longer in production.   While there might well be enough stock now to satisfy the needs of the cadet programme, that certainly won't be the case forever.   It doesn't make any sense to manufacture, store, and distribute OD combats especially for cadets when similar garments (in CadPat) exist in the supply system.

A secondary reason is that one of the three aims of the cadet programme is to stimulate an interest in the Armed Forces.  Cadets are attracted by the prospect of getting a taste of military life, and this includes wearing military-type uniforms.  I think we'd see a drop in cadet enrolment, to no gain of the Forces, if we were to dress cadets in, say, yellow sweaters and white trousers.  The LCF is a very real factor in cadet recruiting and consequent CF recruiting.

Why do so many people feel that it's a scandal for cadets to wear CadPat when cadets have been wearing the same combat uniform as the Forces for several decades without any apparent complaints?


----------



## Slim

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Why do so many people feel that it's a scandal for cadets to wear CadPat when cadets have been wearing the same combat uniform as the Forces for several decades without any apparent complaints?



Ahh...But now we're dealing with a uniform that is 'controlled' by the establishment. Not released for civilian use (quite a common term in the Cf and the US army!)

IF cadets were to be issued with this uniform then the 'controls' per say would be lost and the material would very quickly find its way to the street.

Also cadets are not sworn members of the CF in any capacity so there is nothing preventing them from completely abusing the uniform in question...How many have already been picked up at painball matches with the fake stuff?!

Further...The uniform of the CF is one that members work very hard to earn the right to wear! I fell (as most of them probably do) that to issue this uniform to cadets would cheapen the value of earning the right to wear it for everyone else. Maybe that sounds pretty trivial to someone who is not 'in' but to those of us who have had to sweat in the weeds for real it means alott!

When I was in sea cadets we were issued old bush jackets and pants...They were not combat or operational dress per say but did the job just fine!

My posn has not changed on this issue and from the above reasons I see no motivation to alter it.

Slim


----------



## Neill McKay

Slim said:
			
		

> IF cadets were to be issued with this uniform then the 'controls' per say would be lost and the material would very quickly find its way to the street.



Any civilian can buy the material from Wheelers, if not from other places as well.  The Canadian Forces-pattern garment may be controlled but the material itself can be had, in a manufactured product at least, by anyone.



> My posn has not changed on this issue and from the above reasons I see no motivation to alter it.



No worries.

DCdts doesn't show any sign of altering its position either!


----------



## Neill McKay

2332Piper said:
			
		

> And the DAOD's are issued on the authority of the CDS and the QR&O's under the authority of the Queen. Methinks DCadets is a little outranked here.



Sure, but that would only matter if the two were in conflict.  Do you see such a conflict, or just a loophole?


----------



## armyvern

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Any civilian can buy the material from Wheelers, if not from other places as well.   The Canadian Forces-pattern garment may be controlled but the material itself can be had, in a manufactured product at least, by anyone.
> 
> No worries.
> 
> DCdts doesn't show any sign of altering its position either!



Actually, go to sites that sell cadpat material. They will point out that this material, although of a 'cadpat design' is NOT the material used to produce the CF operational dress. It does not come with the "operational capabilities" that ours does. Plain and simple. I will not get into what those specific properties are. But lets just say, a cadet will never have to worry about NOT having them integrated into his uniform.

Secondly, regarding the loophole comment. My response to the is this: A Criminal Code of Canada Offense:

It's called Impersonation:

Specifically, CCC Section 419 Impersonation:

"Everyone who, without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him:
(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefore,"

So being as how the MND & CDS' Policy on the wearing of cadpat does not give lawful authority to cadets to wear it (it has only been lawfully authorized for CIC Officers to wear it - 2 sets), and their policy is the LAW, I would suggest the loophole is closed. Cadets are NOT lawfully authorized to wear CF cadpat. The personnel who sell CF cadpat on e-bay etc are being subjected to black marketeering (the selling or possesion  of which is illegal I point out) charges as well as charges under the CTAT (Controlled Technology Access Transfer Regulations) 

CTAT:
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/3003/1_e.asp

"Under the Defence Production Act it is an offence for a person who is not registered under that Act to knowingly examine, possess or transfer a controlled good. The registration requirements do not apply to a person who occupies a position in the federal public service or a federal Crown Corporation, or is employed by Her Majesty in right of a province, who acts in good faith in the course of their duties and employment.

"Policy Statement 
DND and the CF are committed to demonstrating responsiveness to, and responsibility for, all laws and regulations in respect of controlled goods. 

Requirements
DND and the CF must: 

ensure that all controlled goods are identified and afforded the necessary level of protection to prevent their unauthorized examination, possession or transfer; 

ensure that DND employees and CF members exercise due diligence and permit access to controlled goods only by persons so *authorized under the Defence Production Act and the Controlled Goods Regulations*; and 

provide for reporting and investigation if the security of a controlled good is compromised in any way.

*Authority
Authority Table The following table identifies the authorities responsible for implementing the policy.

The Vice Chief of the Defence Staff (VCDS)
has the authority to direct that the management of controlled goods be included in business plans.

ADM(Mat)
approve and administer policy for controlled goods."*
I didn't happen to notice that the DCdts had any authority to allow cadets to wear controlled goods...perhaps the CDS and the MND neglected to insert him??


----------



## The_Falcon

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Outdoor adventure training is part of all three cadet elements' training programmes, and in fact forms the core of the army cadet programme.   There is a need for a field uniform for cadets; the cadet DEUs are obviously unsuitable for the field.   Combats are perfect for it, having been designed for just that environment.
> 
> So why CadPat vice OD?   Because the latter is no longer in production.   While there might well be enough stock now to satisfy the needs of the cadet programme, that certainly won't be the case forever.   It doesn't make any sense to manufacture, store, and distribute OD combats especially for cadets when similar garments (in CadPat) exist in the supply system.
> 
> A secondary reason is that one of the three aims of the cadet programme is to stimulate an interest in the Armed Forces.   Cadets are attracted by the prospect of getting a taste of military life, and this includes wearing military-type uniforms.   I think we'd see a drop in cadet enrolment, to no gain of the Forces, if we were to dress cadets in, say, yellow sweaters and white trousers.   The LCF is a very real factor in cadet recruiting and consequent CF recruiting.
> 
> Why do so many people feel that it's a scandal for cadets to wear CadPat when cadets have been wearing the same combat uniform as the Forces for several decades without any apparent complaints?



Sorry I utter fail to see how your comments support the positions that cadets are entitled to CadPat. First outdoor adventure training is a large component of the scouting and they do perfectly well wearing regular street clothes.  If you are afraid of the CF running out switch to the american style (Rothco and Propper both make OD BDUs), that way there is absolutely no confusion as neither nation wears OD anymore. Second cadets as you said "stimulates an interest", it is not an meant to be a direct recruiting base.  Also how many cadets are actually enrolling in CF on a yearly basis, do you have numbers to support your arguement.  If the LCF is a very real factor in cadet recruiting, then that speak volumes to me about how poorly cadet recruiting is conducted.  Finally what makes you so sure that people didn't have complaints about cadets wearing the old uniform?


----------



## Springroll

I personally feel that the CadPat should be left to the reg and res force. Old grimy green combats(which I prefer the look of anyways) should be issued to army cadets for use in the field only. Cadets should also be permitted to wear whatever they are able to find in an army surplus store, even if it is CadPat wannabe stuff. If a cadet gets their hands on some real CadPat, thenthere is someone else to pay for that, not the cadet since it was never issued to them in the first place.


----------



## 025

Four years before I was in the reserves I joined cadets.. and back then, I had alot of respect for them, it was well structured and there was good disciplin.. people in your face, makeing u do push ups if u did somehting wrong.. and it generaly   resembled the military.. i had to quit about a year later because i moved.. when i rejoined the cadets (a year before the reserves) something called CHAP (Cadet Harassment Awareness Program) was introduced.. and everyhting went to shit.. no one knew how to properly march, orders during parade were spoken, not yelled as yelling was stressful to one of the cadets, no one was aloud to make u do push ups and it generaly resembled boy scouts.. i quit after the first weekend excercise which was an unorganised waist of time, when i tried to take a little initiavtive and tell some younger kids, who i was told to take of, what to do, they started threatining to ahve me charged for harassment..

 I dont know if cadets are like this still, but as some one about to go reg force and move half way across the country away from my family and freinds i would be a little offended to know that the uniform I take real pride in wearing is being worn by these cadets.. and i take huge offense if they think they DESERVE to wear it..

 Just my 2 cents    :warstory:


----------



## Springroll

Is that what the organization is like nowadays?

Back when I was in, we were treated much the same way as you were when you first joined. We were yelled at, did drill for hours(well only 2 hrs) PT nights were always VERY structured along with our regular parade nights. If you screwed up, you had many push ups in your future.


----------



## Springroll

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Second cadets as you said "stimulates an interest", it is not an meant to be a direct recruiting base.   Also how many cadets are actually enrolling in CF on a yearly basis, do you have numbers to support your arguement.



I can say that the majority of the people I was in cadets with went on to join the military, be it Reg or Res force. Now by the majority I mean approx 85%. There were a couple that joined the British Army and of course those that did not join at all.


----------



## The_Falcon

Springroll said:
			
		

> I can say that the majority of the people I was in cadets with went on to join the military, be it Reg or Res force. Now by the majority I mean approx 85%. There were a couple that joined the British Army and of course those that did not join at all.



Care to clarify?  I am suspecting that you are referring to your unit only.


----------



## Springroll

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Care to clarify?   I am suspecting that you are referring to your unit only.



I was referring to the two units I was in, and the other cadets that I had developed friendships with that were not in my units.


----------



## Neill McKay

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Sorry I utter fail to see how your comments support the positions that cadets are entitled to CadPat. First outdoor adventure training is a large component of the scouting and they do perfectly well wearing regular street clothes.



Yes, and they're responsible for providing their own uniforms and most other equipment.   In the cadet programme these are provided by the Crown.

In general, I'm afraid the argument "Scouts do it so cadets can too" won't go very far.



> If you are afraid of the CF running out switch to the american style (Rothco and Propper both make OD BDUs), that way there is absolutely no confusion as neither nation wears OD anymore.



And for that matter there may well be a decision made to design and provide a unique cadet field uniform, although it hasn't been done yet.   As a practical matter, though, the more common items (between cadets and the Forces) the easier it is from a procurement and supply perspective.   Issuing CF-pattern combats (new or surplus) to cadets is simply easier all around.   I don't think hurt feelings are enough to defeat the cold, hard, cash saved from a streamlined supply system.



> Second cadets as you said "stimulates an interest", it is not an meant to be a direct recruiting base.



That's correct.   But it's not especially relevant -- we stimulate an interest by, among other things, providing an environment that approximates a military environment.



> Also how many cadets are actually enrolling in CF on a yearly basis, do you have numbers to support your arguement.



No, I don't know the exact numbers.   But it's clearly enough that the CF is still willing to make it all hapen.



> If the LCF is a very real factor in cadet recruiting, then that speak volumes to me about how poorly cadet recruiting is conducted.



Nonsense -- LCF is used extensively even in CF recruiting.



> Finally what makes you so sure that people didn't have complaints about cadets wearing the old uniform?



No doubt there were a few, as there's always someone looking to complain about something, but I've certainly never heard anything like the vehemence that's been put behind the anti CadPat arguments here.


----------



## Neill McKay

025 said:
			
		

> Four years before I was in the reserves I joined cadets.. and back then, I had alot of respect for them, it was well structured and there was good disciplin.. people in your face, makeing u do push ups if u did somehting wrong.. and it generaly   resembled the military.. i had to quit about a year later because i moved.. when i rejoined the cadets (a year before the reserves) something called CHAP (Cadet Harassment Awareness Program) was introduced.. and everyhting went to crap.. no one knew how to properly march, orders during parade were spoken, not yelled as yelling was stressful to one of the cadets, no one was aloud to make u do push ups and it generaly resembled boy scouts.. i quit after the first weekend excercise which was an unorganised waist of time, when i tried to take a little initiavtive and tell some younger kids, who i was told to take of, what to do, they started threatining to ahve me charged for harassment..
> 
> I dont know if cadets are like this still, but as some one about to go reg force and move half way across the country away from my family and freinds i would be a little offended to know that the uniform I take real pride in wearing is being worn by these cadets.. and i take huge offense if they think they DESERVE to wear it..



About all I can say to this is that you shouldn't judge the entire cadet programme, which is not much smaller than the regular force in the number of members, by a short time you spent in one especially numpty corps.


----------



## Neill McKay

armyvern said:
			
		

> Actually, go to sites that sell cadpat material. They will point out that this material, although of a 'cadpat design' is NOT the material used to produce the CF operational dress. It does not come with the "operational capabilities" that ours does. Plain and simple. I will not get into what those specific properties are. But lets just say, a cadet will never have to worry about NOT having them integrated into his uniform.
> 
> Secondly, regarding the loophole comment. My response to the is this: A Criminal Code of Canada Offense:
> 
> It's called Impersonation:



I'm just not interested enough in a lower-deck lawyering battle to pursue this one any further.  If you think you see the law being broken, go ahead and call the MPs and I'm sure the system will take care of it and the right thing will eventually be done.  Cheers!


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote from Springroll,
_Old grimy green combats(which I prefer the look of anyways)_

Well now, this is a first, I agree with Springroll on something. I first saw the Cadpat only last year at the Brockville Armouries and went what the #@&* is that?
They are as far from LCF as one could possably be.
They might be good for their purpose but as far as pleasing to anyone's eye, phhffftttt.....


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## yoman

My Air Cadet squadron allows all cadets to wear what they want. Including CADPAT fakes. I had a FTX last weekend in which some cadets wear wearing fake CADPAT, some of my CIC Air officers wearing CADPAT, Naval CIC and Reserve personnel wearing CADPAT. This was all done at Connaught Range, no body got in trouble for wearing fake CADPAT.

Now me personally, I don't think that cadets should wear the same combat clothing the CF does. We should wear something similar like the new CADETPAT so that you can easily tell who's a cadet or not.


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## The_Falcon

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Yes, and they're responsible for providing their own uniforms and most other equipment.   In the cadet programme these are provided by the Crown.
> 
> In general, I'm afraid the argument "Scouts do it so cadets can too" won't go very far.
> 
> And for that matter there may well be a decision made to design and provide a unique cadet field uniform, although it hasn't been done yet.   As a practical matter, though, the more common items (between cadets and the Forces) the easier it is from a procurement and supply perspective.   Issuing CF-pattern combats (new or surplus) to cadets is simply easier all around.   I don't think hurt feelings are enough to defeat the cold, hard, cash saved from a streamlined supply system.
> 
> That's correct.   But it's not especially relevant -- we stimulate an interest by, among other things, providing an environment that approximates a military environment.
> 
> No, I don't know the exact numbers.   But it's clearly enough that the CF is still willing to make it all hapen.
> 
> Nonsense -- LCF is used extensively even in CF recruiting.
> 
> No doubt there were a few, as there's always someone looking to complain about something, but I've certainly never heard anything like the vehemence that's been put behind the anti CadPat arguments here.



Whats wrong with actually paying for uniforms and equipment, in a youth organization? Why won't the scouts can do it argumment fly   wrt to cadets (specially army cadets), because you say so?   As far as I can tell the programs themselves differ from each other very little other in most respects.   

So the army cadets may develop their own "unique"   (from the pics I saw it looks very very similar to marpat).   But you still have NOT provided a valid argument as to why cadets needs a uniform with a camoflauge pattern for the field (camping).   And seeing as how most cadets are not "uniform" in appearance in the field anyways do to the fact they have to purchase field stuff out there pocket.   In no way shape or form should DND pay for any field uniforms for cadets, as they are not required and those monies could be better spent providing uniforms for troops going on actual deployments.

As for LCF being used in CF ads, what ads have you been watching.   As has been disscussed other threads our ads are sorely lacking in things with LCF.

Maybe the reasoning behind the vehemence is due to the fact that many people involved with cadets (including cadets themselves) have it in their heads that they have some undeniable right to wear whatever the regs and pres wears.   This is WRONG.   Wearing the uniform is a PRIVELGE and an HONOUR awarded to those who have EARNED that PRIVELGE and HONOUR.   It is not about LOOKING COOL!!!   And anyone who uses that arguement no matter how small, has no idea what it means to wear that uniform (including CICs who make that arguement).   ODs are available, and that is all that should be permitted, not matter how uncool they may look, period.


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## Burrows

Thread closed,

DCdts response pending.

If you have something worth while to add, not just a "OMGZZZ lyk *repeats self*!!" PM me.


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