# More Whining about Lengthy CT times



## scoutfinch (24 Sep 2006)

I was advised that my CT to Legal will likely take about one year to complete.  

I cannot for the life of me understand the delay.  

It makes no sense.

I am accustomed to being recruited by law firms with highly competitive offers.  They make it clear that they want me to join their firm based on my competency as a lawyer. 

I have excelled at all CF courses I have attended.  I have been keen and never missed so much as a training night at my reserve unit.  

Maybe it is simply a blow to my professional ego, but one has to assume that the CF either wants you or they don't.  Waiting a year screams to me that they aren't interested. 

Unfortunately, for professional reasons I am likely going to be unable to wait one year for the CF to make up their minds.  Which sucks for me because this is something I really wanted to do.  I come into this as a mature adult with life experience and a wealth of education.  I wanted to contribute to the CF and my country.  On a philosophical note, I can only shrug and think "such is life and the result is my loss".  

Oh well.  I trust the recruiting system knows what it is doing and is responding to the needs of the CF as best it can.  It is the only logic that I can come up with at this time.


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## orange.paint (24 Sep 2006)

I guess even at your level your still just a number like the rest of us.Outside of section/troop level you slowly become a name on a piece of paper....unless your really good/bad.Then they all know ya.


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## 17thRecceSgt (24 Sep 2006)

Hey Scoutfinch.

Well, after the stuff that both me and my MCpl have been going thru with CTs, and the struggle HLs had to get in, you would think I would say nothing good about CTs.

I say stick to it, things can change, look at what happened to HLs.  They told her she wasn't even going to GET in, and then called her 2 weeks later with an offer to start in 6 weeks!

While the people I have dealt with ref my CT are excellent, the process and system they must work in is NOT a well-oiled machine.  I am still hanging in there.  

Hmm, maybe you can do something temporarily while this process works itself out?  I am not too sure if your profession would let you work "short term" at a firm/company knowing  you are going to head out to the Reg Frce in the near future?

I know what you are talking about...my PLAR has been complete since Aug 15th, and now....nothing.  Zip.  Ziltch.  And no one can really tell me what is going on.

Keep your stick on the ice!  I thought I would be gone before the summer at first...tic toc I am still here.

MRM


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## mdh (24 Sep 2006)

> Keep your stick on the ice!  I thought I would be gone before the summer at first...tic toc I am still here.



I'm going to second Med Recce Man; things change and one year might be a worst case scenario. Remember that it's nothing personal. I've also had my frustrations with military bureaucracy, but if you really want to be a CF lawyer, then stick with it.   

After all in the scheme of things is one year really that long?  

cheers, mdh


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## dapaterson (24 Sep 2006)

Are you changing components - Res to Reg?  That is a CT, and it's an involved process.  If you are also changing occupations, that's another process, an Occupational Transfer (or OT).  In that case, you've got two processes that may or may not be well aligned working together.

Do we need to get those two processes in sync?  Yes.

But remember that a combined CT and OT does very little good for the CF.  An ideal CT takes a fully trained member and moves them from one component to the other (usually Res to Reg), filling a hole and costing no training time.  When you change trades the CF saves on a recruit course; you'll have to redo almost all your other training.  So the field force hole remains unfilled, the training system has another person to slot into courses that are already overloaded...

For the Army reserve, about 60% of people who join the Regular Force also change their occupation.  That's an issue that requires closer examination - how can the Army convice people to change components and remain in the same occupation?  It saves both time and money.

Just my 2c.


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## kitrad1 (24 Sep 2006)

Scoutfinch,

Just curious, but who advised you that it would take over a year?


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## 17thRecceSgt (24 Sep 2006)

Scoutfinch,

This popped into my head as I was replying to a PM ref HLs.

When she was first told she may be getting an offer, it was for a IAP in April 2007.  Within 2 weeks, it was for an IAP in Aug 06.

It always better to be an asshole at first and then be a nice guy   ;D so...worst case scenario, is a year.  Once they start backing it up, if they do, then they start being nice guys.

I know you aren't HLs, and you might not have the same luck...but then again you might to.  Never know.

...stick on the ice...ready for the pass... ;D


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## HItorMiss (24 Sep 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Are you changing components - Res to Reg?  That is a CT, and it's an involved process.  If you are also changing occupations, that's another process, an Occupational Transfer (or OT).  In that case, you've got two processes that may or may not be well aligned working together.
> 
> Do we need to get those two processes in sync?  Yes.
> 
> ...




Dapaterson,

Though you raise some valid issues Scoutfinch does not fall into them, although she is doing a CT/OT she is moving from an untrained postion with Int to a trained position in JAG as she is a fully  credited board certified Lawyer, versed in CF law as well.


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## 17thRecceSgt (24 Sep 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Dapaterson,
> 
> Though you raise some valid issues Scoutfinch does not fall into them, although she is doing a CT/OT she is moving from an untrained postion with Int to a trained position in JAG as she is a fully  credited board certified Lawyer, versed in CF law as well.



This is going to sound REALLY stupid, but what are the chances that she would be able to move faster if she released from the PRes and went in as a "civie" into the CFRC with past Mil Experience (CAP and all that)?  Now, with the CDS direction on recruiting timelines, it may be the quickest way in??

Or maybe I am so far out of my lane I am in the woods, not the weeds.


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## HItorMiss (24 Sep 2006)

To be honest MRM I was thinking the same thing.....

Perhaps she should walk into CFRC Halifax and ask that very question.


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## blacktriangle (24 Sep 2006)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> But remember that a combined CT and OT does very little good for the CF.  An ideal CT takes a fully trained member and moves them from one component to the other (usually Res to Reg), filling a hole and costing no training time.  When you change trades the CF saves on a recruit course; you'll have to redo almost all your other training.  So the field force hole remains unfilled, the training system has another person to slot into courses that are already overloaded...





I was told during my interveiw that if I ever decided to go to the Regular Force, I would have to redo the MOC training anyways, as Res and Reg armoured regiments use different vehicles and techniques, and the courses are different. Wouldn't that make it just the same as transferring to the say, the navy, considering I will have to start fresh anyways?


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## beach_bum (25 Sep 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> This is going to sound REALLY stupid, but what are the chances that she would be able to move faster if she released from the PRes and went in as a "civie" into the CFRC with past Mil Experience (CAP and all that)?  Now, with the CDS direction on recruiting timelines, it may be the quickest way in??
> 
> Or maybe I am so far out of my lane I am in the woods, not the weeds.



Honestly...not a good idea.  I have seen people do that before and it ends up taking MUCH longer.  Not only would you be going in under another entry plan, but you would require a VFS etc as well.  Depending on how long it takes for the release to become finalized, this can really tie up the paperwork.


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## 17thRecceSgt (25 Sep 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> To be honest MRM I was thinking the same thing.....
> 
> Perhaps she should walk into CFRC Halifax and ask that very question.



+1.  My Cpl on Class B went last week to ask about a CT and was basically "advised" to wait and submit his file after 01 Oct 06, so he would be under the "new rules".

Hmmm, maybe I should do that too!


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## kincanucks (25 Sep 2006)

Thought I could stay out of this one.

CTing or even enrolling as a CF Lawyer and CTing or enrolling as anything else is very different.  The JAG Branch is not in any great need of more lawyers or else they would make effort to recruit them.  The CFRC/Ds take the applications and then if the applicants are suitable the Legal Branch will hold a supplementary board and choose those applicants they deemed worthy enough to have further interviews in Ottawa or other convenient locations.  If the applicant is deemed acceptable after the interview then they are enrolled.  This process is one of the longest and is usually only done once a year and can be further compounded by looking for previous documents, etc.  The lawyers I have seen get accepted are very experienced.  Again if the Legal Branch wanted to recruit a lot of lawyers then they would make more effort but instead they get their few a year and are happy.


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## scoutfinch (25 Sep 2006)

kincanucks has hit the nail on the head with the problem on this one... it is the JAG process that slows things down as they sit and compare all applicants at the same time and I have been advised by a well placed JAG person that the Board has recently sat and so they have to wait until the next Board sits to compare my application with all the other applicants.   They don't take all applicants even if that means they don't meet their recruiting goals.  They take the applicants which best meets their requirements.

That being said, I have also been advised that JAG is understaffed and is actively recruiting; however, they are not prepared to lower the standard in order to meet numbers (an approach with which I agree wholeheartedly).  I have also been advised that I would sit as a very strong applicant as I have previous legal and military experience.  I am going to polish off my OPMEs in the next few months so it can be added to my list of "things done".

So, it wouldn't matter if I left the reserves and then applied.  I would still go through the same process of waiting for the Board to sit.  It is frustrating.  

I would like to thank kincancucks for the advice he has given me here and in PMs.  The JAG recruiting process falls outside the normal stream and I was unable to get any real idea of what to expect from my local recruiting centre as they kept referring me to the local AJAG office which, in all reality, too busy doing legal work to accomodate recruiting calls.  

I guess I should clarify that my first post was not intended as a critique as much as it was expressing my frustration.  Yes, I would like the process to work faster but I also understand the rationale for it (to some extent).  In any event, as I have reminded people many a time, it is not my right to be a Legal Officer.  It is a privilege which I have to earn.  I will wait as long as I can but the prospect of being underemployed while I wait is not a great incentive to waiting.


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## dapaterson (25 Sep 2006)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> Dapaterson,
> 
> Though you raise some valid issues Scoutfinch does not fall into them, although she is doing a CT/OT she is moving from an untrained postion with Int to a trained position in JAG as she is a fully  credited board certified Lawyer, versed in CF law as well.



HitOrMiss:

She's still unqualified.  Though she will walk past the CF basic training, there's still second language training, any other CF common bumph needed, followed by CF military law training.  There may be portions of that training that can e written off due to experience, but until all those little boxes are checked off the person is not qualified.  If someone walked off the street with a Cessna license, we wouldn't stick them in the cockpit of a CF-18 the next day - it's the same in every other occupation (though admittedly you can get some productive work out of some professionals such as Drs and lawyers while waiting for them to complete their training).


S.Smith:

In the Army Reserve your occupation would be Crewman - Reconnaissance, whereas in the Regular Force the occupation is Crewman - Armoured (assuming you're an NCM).  Different sub-occupation.  My statement was perhaps a bit too generic.


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## scoutfinch (25 Sep 2006)

dapaterson:

To be precise, I am qualified to apply.  I am not a qualified Legal Officer but I meet all -- and, in fact, surpass some -- requirements to apply.  

The only caveat I would apply to the delay on the recruiting process is that many very good highly skilled lawyers who would express an interest in joining the CF would be turned away by a year long wait.  The legal profession is highly territorial and if your senior partnership so much as get a whiff of your intentions to leave, your work flow is in jeopardy immediately.  Moreover, we can't just pick up clients and abandon them when the call comes from the CF as we are under an ethical obligtion to our clients to maintain carriage of their files until the matter is resolved.  (Trust me, it is not easy to wind up your practice and resign your position at the bar if you have maintained trust accounts.)

So, the CF is likely seeing only those lawyers that : (a) took the military legal training plan --obviously a good choice for the CF; (b) people willing to wait out the waiting period and take the hits to their civilian career without any guarantee of success in the recruiting process and (c) lawyers who do not have a legal career, so to speak, for whatever reason (generally, inexperience or incompetence).  

I have no doubt that the waiting period serves to seperate the wheat (group B above) from the chaff... but I fear that the wheat is the group scared away moreso than the chaff (group c above).  Then the recruiting process will deal with the chaff.  The problem is that the CF will have already lost the opportunity to recruit some really stellar lawyers because they will have walked away because of the lenghty wait.


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## Cloud Cover (25 Sep 2006)

They just hired a whole bunch of JAGS over the past few years, and even managed to convert a couple of infantry and armoured officers into JAGS by sending them to law school. 

From what I have seen with my own eyes, if you have a law degree, have a pulse high enough to keep blood flowing to your brain and can manage to walk fast enough to stay just behind your client and you are paranoid [smart] enough to never get in front of him in theatre, you're qualified to be a JAG.  

As for the other rhetoric about being choosey about who is selected- what a crock of shyte they spin with that. Everybody knows the JAG branch is hardly a shining example of a brilliant legal shop, although it does have some attractive pay and CLE benefits in comparison to the DoJ.


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## scoutfinch (25 Sep 2006)

What bothers me the most is that I have turned down some really attractive offers in order to join the CF.  I believe, given the gravity of what they deal with, Legal Officers should be the cream of the crop.  I went to school with some that are now Majors who applied because they couldn't find a decent job after not getting hired back upon complettion of their articles (ie. joining by default).  I also know some that joined after completing their articles as a a result of a conscious choice to serve in the CF.  So, I am not sure that all lawyers fall under the description you provided!


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## 17thRecceSgt (25 Sep 2006)

Well, I had no idea the JAG side was so different.

And, IMHO, its a bigger clusterf$$k that a CT.

Well Scoutfinch, you could always "slide the recuiter a $20" and see if that helps!


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## dapaterson (25 Sep 2006)

Scoutfinch:

Permit me to add a qualifier to my qualification statement, to enhance its quality.   

By "qualified" I mean "meeting the CF, environmental and occupational requirements for employment in the CF".  I am not referring to professional qualifications (though those may form part of the occupational requirements).  "Qualified" means an individual member of the CF can be employed in their military occupation, holding the requisite training to do so.

I will not argue on behalf of the CF legal branch and their selection methodology.  I would be the first to argue for greater transparency in thier process - saying "wait a year and we'll see" is hardly a world-class HR process.  Stating instead "We do intake at times X and Y; your file will be forwarded for consideration at X provided all these other criteria are met in time, otherwise, it will not go forward until Y" would be a tremndous step forward.  (In fact, passing along such basic information would probably solve half the problems in the recruiting system - keeping applicants in the know about their file (anecdotally) appears to be one of our biggest hurdles).


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## scoutfinch (25 Sep 2006)

Thanks for your comments dapaterson.

To be honest, I think my greatest frustrations is the absolute information vacuum in which I exist.  I dropped off my papers at the local CFRC and was told that I would receive a call for an initial interview sometime in the next few weeks or month.  I have to wait until a legal officer is available to come from Ottawa to do the interview.  That could take weeks apparently.  

I then asked what the next step would be and the recruiter didn't know because *that is a JAG thing*.  

Fortunately, I was able to speak with a senior AJAG who advised me of the process and told me that it would take atleast 6 months but more likely a year to process my application.     In the meantime, as of Friday when I left the CFRC recruiting sphere, I have no point of contact with the CF Recruiting World who would have any knowledge of the whereabouts or status of my file.  

So, I sit and wait and bypass other civilian offers with the hope of getting an interview sometime in the coming weeks.  That isn't to mention the offers I will likely pass up while I wait for the recruiting process to run its course.  And don't forget I have all but shot myself in the foot with respect to completing my last BOQ course for my current trade.

I have managed to place myself in complete career limbo because of my desire to join the reg force as a Legal Officer.  Makes me feel kinda silly, really.  Giving up all of that for only a chance at becoming a Legal Officer.


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## HItorMiss (25 Sep 2006)

Scout baby

PM me or reach me on MSN, let's see if we can't think of something, That I haven't heard from you in a few days   ;D


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