# Youth violence, and solving the problem



## bossi (19 Dec 2004)

The problem of increasing youth violence is a hot topic in the media these days.
When I wrote my letter to the editor (published in today's Toronto Sun) I certainly wasn't advocating compulsory military service - it's been discussed before, and the consensus continues to be "our Army doesn't need to be further burdened with the dregs of our society".  However, due to the editorial comment/reply, it's worth mentioning here (in order to ensure we've got our act together, and all singing the same song ...)

Having said all of the above, I continue to be frustrated by inappropriate role models for today's youth, when there are so many better choices they could be making ... and better examples they could be following ...



> Sun, December 19, 2004
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It's painful to learn about another senseless murder -- another child stolen from family and friends ("'A good kid' killed," Dec. 5). This cycle of violence is not going to stop unless some brave steps are taken.
> 
> ...


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## Steel Badger (19 Dec 2004)

You should see how convicted YO's are treated by the system.


"Its Ok johnny, take your shank out of the nice officer's back, and tell him that you're sorry......."


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Dec 2004)

My problem with the YO system is it isn't the real world. My ex-partner[I think you might remember him, Steel ;D] was moonlighting on the side in a YO setting. To make a long story short, scumbag throws good guys spaghetti in his lap so good guy gives backhand......good guy in poop, scumbag back to Nintendo.
Now I'm sorry, I know violence is not always the answer but, sometimes it is...you are sitting in restarant and a stranger drops your meal in your lap,well I believe the real world [and proper] response is a shot to the head.
There must be consequences for actions!


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## 48Highlander (19 Dec 2004)

yeah but in the real world you'd be in "poop" for it too.  it's assault wether you do it in a restaurant or in a jail.  the guards should have the authority to punish the inmates, but there's no reason to be beating them.


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## Canadian.Trucker (19 Dec 2004)

I'm a young guy only 20, but I've been raised that talking is not always the solution.   There has to be a realization that talking does not solve everything.   Did everyone continue to talk to Hitler even after he invaded France?   Did people think talking was the only way when Iraq invaded Kuwait?   Sometimes people need a good slap upside the head to be shown "you're being a dumbass".   Beatings - no.   Physical repremand - yes.

As well put these kids in an environment where they are actually contributing something.   Such as a work farm or make them serve at a soup kitchen.   The army isn't the place to go, yeah, teach them how to do unarmed combat or field strip a C7 assault rifle.   Sure it could teach them lessons and reform some, but for others it would just teach them better ways to fight.   The military does not need to be tarnished in such a way.

DUCIMUS


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## 48Highlander (19 Dec 2004)

There's alternatives to a slap on the head.  Hitting people generaly teaches them that it's alright to beat others when you know you can get away with it.  Instead of beating them, throm in solitary for a week.  Give 'em physical labour.  Take away privilidges.  Talking and hitting aren't the only way to deal with people.


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## Slim (19 Dec 2004)

I believe that there comes a point where trying to "talk" your way out of a situation will only lead the "bad guy" to conclude that you are weak and incapable of defending yourself...At about which time he really goes for you!

A big problem with Canada is that the ability to "defend yourself" for the most part, no longer exists.

Take the case of the martial arts guy who turned his attacker aside when he was assaulted. The "bad Guy" happened to get hurt while falling down...and sued his victim successfully. I believe that the police also charged the martial arts guy in that case(I'll try to find the link for all to see...it happened outside the Brunswick House here in Toronto)

Where's the justice in that?

In my opinion if you go after someone with the intent to harm him or her then, as far as I'm concerned, you deserve whatever's coming to you!

Slim :rage:


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Dec 2004)

Quote,
_  the guards should have the authority to punish the inmates, but there's no reason to be beating them._

Somebody has watched too many movies. 

...48th, don't mean to be talking down to you but untill you have worked in one of our fine establishments, you can never know how totally out to lunch your statements  really are and it can not be explained, you must walk it to know.
Again this is not a slap-down [an apt term here ;D]  just the old " lane" thing
Bruce


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## 48Highlander (19 Dec 2004)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quote,
> _  the guards should have the authority to punish the inmates, but there's no reason to be beating them._
> 
> Somebody has watched too many movies.
> ...



    Oh I understand what you mean and I'm not offended.  Don't get me wrong, there are similar situations where I'd react the same way, but I'd expect to get in shit for it and I'd take my punishment.  I'd just make sure I beat him a little more severely if I knew I'd get in shit   There's been times where I've come close to beating the shit out of snotty recruits too, but generaly there are better ways of dealing with it.

    Now I know that in juvi there probably is no such thing as solitary, and they can't be forced to do physical labour.  What I mean is that those restrictions need to be removed.  Give the gaurd more power to dish out punishment.  Personaly I think that if he'd had the right to throw that punk in a cold dark room for the next week and feed him nothing but bread and water, the kid wouldn't be trying anything like that any time soon.  If he did, make it a month next time.  He'll get the message sooner or later.  Even the gaurds in club ed aren't allowed to beat prisoners, but that jail has the lowest re-offender rate in all of Canada.


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## Da_man (19 Dec 2004)

How about boot camps?   All the stuff the military does without C7s or unarmed combat.   Only discipline and PT.




or you can beat them


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Dec 2004)

That comes up all the time but the problem is you must have the "fear factor" to work..IE not letting your peers/ parents/ etc. down.  If they don't and won't co-operate, what then?


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## Canadian.Trucker (19 Dec 2004)

Da_man said:
			
		

> How about boot camps?   All the stuff the military does without C7s or unarmed combat.   Only discipline and PT.



Yeah, and whenever the kids screwed up or were acting up their punishment would be to eat cold IMP's for the rest of the day.   Now that's punishment. :'(


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## Slim (19 Dec 2004)

I think the problem starts much earlier than we think...And is caused by parents, rather that society at large. Maybe if they were dealt with more harshly when they first stepped out of line it might help. (of course I'm not a parent while many of you are and I welcome everyones thoughts on this statement)

Robert Heinlein's book Starship Troopers delves into this subject and he has some interesting thing to say...Worth a read.

Slim


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## 48Highlander (19 Dec 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> I think the problem starts much earlier than we think...And is caused by parents, rather that society at large. Maybe if they were dealt with more harshly when they first stepped out of line it might help. (of course I'm not a parent while many of you are and I welcome everyones thoughts on this statement)
> 
> Robert Heinlein's book Starship Troopers delves into this subject and he has some interesting thing to say...Worth a read.
> 
> Slim



I think there's a lot of different factors, but parents are the most important influence.  I helped raise my youngest sister and she's the best behaved 11 year old I know.  It's the same thing as training recruits, you have to be firm, fair, and consistent.  She still questions my parents from time to time but when I tell her to do something, it gets done.


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## Steel Badger (19 Dec 2004)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> There's alternatives to a slap on the head.   Hitting people generaly teaches them that it's alright to beat others when you know you can get away with it.   Instead of beating them, throm in solitary for a week.   Give 'em physical labour.   Take away privilidges.   Talking and hitting aren't the only way to deal with people.



48th....
I have to back Bruce on this one......

When you talk of physical labour I have to ask what prison system you are familiar with. Certainly not the Ontario Provincial system. 
Very gently i would suggest you experience the reality of institutional life. You assume that line officers (not "guards" by the by, most of us find that to be a condenscending and insulting term) have the authority to institue physical labour etc.....


When you deal with an inmate population for whom violence is the most popular method of communication; sometimes the other methods do NOT work......I found that out myself.......
Also: although i used to say that working in a prison is like teaching on a violent GMT...it isnt...
Its like dealing with a pack of violent overgrown three year olds (why me, wasnt me etc)
In short...Candidates on a GMT WANT to join the Army and understand (however inperfectly) that there is an obligation to follow rules.
There is NO such understanding among inmates...They see their job as to get what they can and thwart the staff....They just don't care about the Ministry of Correctional Services act or regulations. (The MCSA acts like the NDA w/ regards to inmate conduct)
(Note: I am not arguing that all inmates are dirtbags....but the culture inside the joint forces even the most placid of incarcerates to act in a certain way or face the consequences....)

If you want to find out what its like, drop me a line....
I get you a tour of a high Security Detention centre

Cheers


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## 48Highlander (20 Dec 2004)

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> 48th....
> I have to back Bruce on this one......
> When you talk of physical labour I have to ask what prison system you are familiar with. Certainly not the Ontario Provincial system.
> Very gently i would suggest you experience the reality of institutional life. You assume that line officers (not "guards" by the by, most of us find that to be a condenscending and insulting term) have the authority to institue physical labour etc.....



    I apologize, I've only ever known one line officer, and he never corrected me.  However, if I may be allowed to quote myself for a minute:



			
				48Highlander said:
			
		

> Now I know that in juvi there probably is no such thing as solitary, and they can't be forced to do physical labour. What I mean is that those restrictions need to be removed. Give the gaurd more power to dish out punishment.



    As you can see, I know that our decade of liberal governments has pretty much tied the hands of those in the penal system to the point where they can't do much more than say "please".  I think that needs to be changed.  Give the line oficers and the wardens (I hope I got that term right) the authority to use physical labour as punishment.  Let them take away privilidges and use solitary confinement as punishment.  Hell, let them use group punishment and let the inmates sort out the "problems" in their midst.  Maybe the government could look at the military penal system and take a few lessons from there.  I don't know exactly what would work because I've never worked in a prison.  It's people like you who should be consulted on those matters.  However, I don't think telling the government "just let us beat some sense into them" is going to go over well, and I don't think it's a viable solution.  Sure if an inmate attacks you, have at 'im, but it's got to be reasonable force used in self defence.  Beating someone for throwing food, while probably pretty satisfying for the line officer in question, is a little excessive.  I mean, if I beat a friggin POW in a warzone I'm supposed to get charged for it, so why should we allow beating in our correctional system at home?



			
				Steel Badger said:
			
		

> Its like dealing with a pack of violent overgrown three year olds (why me, wasnt me etc)
> In short...Candidates on a GMT WANT to join the Army and understand (however inperfectly) that there is an obligation to follow rules.
> There is NO such understanding among inmates...They see their job as to get what they can and thwart the staff....They just don't care about the Ministry of Correctional Services act or regulations. (The MCSA acts like the NDA w/ regards to inmate conduct)



    I fully understand that.  That's why in the past I've argued against making military service an alternative to a prison sentence.



			
				Steel Badger said:
			
		

> If you want to find out what its like, drop me a line....
> I get you a tour of a high Security Detention centre



    Thanks!  I've actually considered going into that line of work, but I really don't know the first thing about it.  If my application to the Toronto police force is unsuccessful, I'll deffinitely be asking you for some more info 


  p.s.  Is it "penal system" or "correctional system"?  I'm guessing the PR-friendly polliticaly correct "correctional", right?


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## Steel Badger (20 Dec 2004)

48th


Talk to Monkey as well....He is older and wiser in Guard-Fu than I....


Seriously, wasn't trying to slag you....

But if you DO want a tour, just for interest sake, and dont mind the drive to Hamilton , I can hook you up........


As for beating people.........I have never been forced or ordered to beat anyone....I have, on many many occassions been force to restrain someone to prevent them from harming A) other inmates, B) Staff, C) themselves.....
Since we do not carry weapons inside the insitution (Other than our minds); use of force means physically restraining someone....

And since many our clientel only respect str and violence, talking etc does no good. And if you do select an alternative, well.....

Correctional Officer: Jones......goin your cell....

Inmate: *&*^%-You Copper, Hoop your forehead. Make me.....

It really is that simple.......


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## PARAMEDIC (20 Dec 2004)

This is what happens when you SPARE the rod and SPOIL the child.

I believe in the old  philosophy as I was brought up on that philosophy and it WORKS. 

Dont wanna open a can-o-worms but yes....stuffing your kid in the corner of the room to stare at the wall doesnt really do jack, and any variation to that method. IMHO

The people who were brought up the old school way can attest to the smack upside the head when you screw up works, when explanations as to why you screwed up was not gettting through...

Case and point when I joined school here, I was shocked at the lack of respect for Teachers or the extensive slack given by teachers to students who basically told them to F'off in front of the whole class...you wouldnt dare or entertain the Idea, not because of the consequences ( which was he11 ) but because out of respect for the teacher.

Same thing I noticed at the mall, when a kid told off his mom coz she didn't want to buy him something....I was shocked (mom was laughing as if the kid made a hilarious joke and she actually thought it was cute)

there are tons of examples I can fall back and if I need new ones all I have to do is take a trip down to the mall.

Its a lack of respect because IMHO parents now a days are trying to be a best friend to their kids than being a parent. 

Kids need parents not best friends.


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## winchable (20 Dec 2004)

I don't think we can compare inmates to children, ones a tree ones a seed if that makes sense.

We're talking about smacking a kid upside the head teaches them it's alright to smack someone upside the head if they feel themselves to be in a position of power over them.
In fact I would argue that smacking your kids in anywhere other than their haagen das is just desensitizing them to that kind of thing the same way video games supposedly do.

To name a few methods:
Involving oneself in their kids lives
Talking to their kids (though there is a stage where this will fall flat on it's face)
Being accessable all the time (Who knew eh?)
Being honest
Garnering respect not fear

Discipline can be achieved in children without resorting to hitting them. I'm an example of such, I know many examples. 
By that same token I know people who are complete jam rolls whos parents definetly did not spare the rod.
Being a good parent involves discipline but doesn't neccessarily have to involve corporal punishment.


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## Bograt (20 Dec 2004)

My Grandfather shot and hung a crow upside down from the clothes line that stretched across his garden. He did not have any more problems with crows that year.

There is a fundamental debate that must occur in this country. What is the purpose of Youth Corrections? Is it to punish or to rehabilitate? If it is the latter, then there must be some kind of recourse for victims of YO crime (ie holding them financial responsible for their actions). I watched the news tonight and saw that a YO (SOB) received 82 days for killing a mother and wife while he was in a stolen car joyriding in Halifax. If that was my family, I would be counting the days till his release.

Last week, a young SOB threw a snowball at my car. The snowball hit the window where my daughter would have been sitting. I immediately stopped the car and pursued the little SOB. I humiliated him in front of his 20+ friends. Within a span of 2 minutes he went from being cool for throwing snowballs at traffic, to a snotting and bawling kid. I held him accountable, and made him a symbol to 20 of his friends. He will think twice before doing it again- and so will his friends.


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## Steel Badger (21 Dec 2004)

HeyGents...

My posts were confined to discipline within a correctional setting.......as for "da yute" of today...

I think it is a combination of many things.......including:

A trend of far too many parent's using the V and/or x box to raise te kids,

Popular media stresses the self over society. I realise that a key element in attracting kids to movies etc is showing a reversal of power (ie the kids are in control) but that has been coupled to the whole "self first" idea....A lot of my friends are teachers and they comment frequently on the negative impact the media has on kids...lots of kids are not mature enough to realize that the "be yourself " message (which is a very good message) hasbeen firmly linked to the "rebel, break the rules" message which the media holds as cool behaviour...

Note:I AM NOT trying to flame the younger members of the forum (or of our society for that matter.) As a leader and trainer I recognize that all wisdom and intuition is not held with in the craniums of old, aluminium pot water drinking cahps like myself....
I am simply pointing out what I see.....

    I do think the media has a lot to answer for. Most of the Young Offenders and "Graduates" (YO's ho have moved on to the adult system) belong to a very specifc brand of street culture...the Gansta Hiphop image....

The music itself  constantly underlines THUG is GOOD, COPS R BAD, as well a complete lack of respect for women, family and society in general..
YES, I know an argument can be made for all music: Well Badger...what about the devil-worshipping Heavy Metal you listened to in the 80's?  Lokk man, I'm off that now...Haven't summoned Beelzebub since 92....and have you SEEN the price of newts eyes these days? 
Worry more about those dudes listening to Zamphir and  his ^%^# panpipes..or Britney Spears......

Seriously tho. the Gansta culture dictates a lack of respect for society, women, law and order. It is all about complete self-gratification and demands voiolence to retain ones 'face". 
For the Samurai, Bushido also demanded force (if required) to retain ones honour and face...but no "street soldier" today would put up with (or be even able to contemplate following" the strictures of Bushido that required the Samurai to be a civilized man as well, master of the tea ceremony, poetry and painting......

Its like the media / thug culture has focused entirely on the "flash", LCF value of a culture set and ignored completely any deeper meaning........TO the street thug, its all about show...the clothes you wear, the "bling bling",  building up self by adding to the outer shell but not truely building self respect from within,,,,

Our inmates all talk about love, peace and respect...its their favorite mantra's....in their letters and in their daily life.....
They, however, are very rarely capable of showing peace, love or respect to anyone.....
The imperatives chosen cultural mores force them to act without thought to preserve their image as "tough guys" because that is THE ONLY STATUS THEY HAVE...

The media as played the "fight the man" image to the hilt, so why should kids think to become part of society when it is cooler to become part of the "thug life"....The clothes the music, all the commercial trappings are geared towards that image..

Look at thewhole baggy pants-under-the ass-thing......We call em Booty Pants or Open for Business pants...Its a fad that started in the New York State prison system. Imates there were issued one size fits all pants, and it became a mark of the ex-con todress that way on the street...It gave street cred or credit to the wearer.. much like the respect given to our brethern who wear UN and other foriegn service medals......

Because the kids truly  did not feel apart of their society, they measured their own self worth by how tough a thug they had become......(This was true for kids in LA and NewYork and the depressed areas of a lot of major US Cities)
But the media exported the lifestyle hear.....

But art imitates life, and police officers can tell anyone about kids being rolled or having the slippers put to them simply for wearing clothes that send the wrong street message....I know of many incidents where kids got a beating just because their ball caps were titled to the wrong side....other little-wannabe thugs were following teh "west-coast" dress fad and felt they had to be true to the thug life and take em out....

AAnd non ofthe kids involved on either side would have a snowball's hope in hell of surviving in east LA.......
Its that simply... The structures of this new culture don't allow for thought......
The one being "dissed: has to react violently to redress the supposed slight to his honour( a word that street thugs throw around but very very few have any concept of)

I feel for kids today, having to live their lives a schools where; unlike when i was at school, arguments dont lead to fist fights one on one....but swarmings, knifings or shootings.......
The "thugs" use weapons so easily because they wouldnt dare fight someone  one on one.......they dont have the minearls....they can only act in groups and then they act with overwhelming volence...


Its funny, there is more violence at dance clubs every night, then in all of the old punk bars and shows that i ever went to. Sure the punks got "active" in the mosh pit...but i NEVER saw a stabbing or a swarming or anything like that...

Part of the problem, as others have pointed out; is the whole youth justice system. Its a crock and so is the Act. As a line officer, i regularly work alongside YO staff and I respond to alerts in the YO segment of our institution...
Most people would not believe how these kids are treated...
The idea underlying the YO act is good...give kids a chance, but in practice it is horribly flawed in the application..
The YO System treats ALL young offenders as little kids. It grades their performance according to their behaviour much like Club Ed does.....but there the similiarities stop....
Staff have so many limitations on their dealings with YO's it cripples their ability to do their jobs...andthe kids know it...
I have responded to alerts where kids have taken other kids hostage, set fire to their cells, been involved in swarmings etc.... and in all cases the Kids (some of whom are 19 doing YO time) who perpetrated the incidents STILL got their pizza and subs and skittles and pop.....cause it takes an act of God to remove the treats that the kids get (so they can develop like real kids)

The system suffers from a disconnect...the policy makers do not realize or care that the incarcerated youth are just as violent and the adults, perhaps moreso becausethe kids KNOW the legal system cant touch them......

Last friday, I was on nights, and there was a disturbance in the YO unit. 3 line officers were injured responding to the alert....including my partner....btu the little *%^$& who started the incident......He still got his visit  and he still got his fridaynight pizza for good behaviour....


To change the yout of today we as a society first have to change our own outlook on this.....ditch the 60's influenced crap that masquerades as our legal system today, and ensure our parents takeactive roles in raising their kids. Then we must change the medias message,,,,,,,


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## bossi (21 Dec 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Last week, a young SOB threw a snowball at my car. The snowball hit the window where my daughter would have been sitting. I immediately stopped the car and pursued the little SOB. I humiliated him in front of his 20+ friends. Within a span of 2 minutes he went from being cool for throwing snowballs at traffic, to a snotting and bawling kid. I held him accountable, and made him a symbol to 20 of his friends. He will think twice before doing it again- and so will his friends.



A funny thing happened on the way to work the other day ...

Waiting in the drive-through to pick up some Timbits for my son, we noticed the driver of the car in front of us throw an empty water bottle out his window at the order point.   My son noticed, and I explained that it was a bad thing ... which got me thinking (... always a bad thing ...).   I hopped out and picked up the bottle, walked forward to the driver's window, handed it back to him, and explained VERY politely that my five-year-old son saw him throw his garbage out the window and would he please mind disposing of the bottle properly in order to set a better example.

Sadly, this story doesn't have a happy ending - the driver launched into a tirade of foul, abusive language - asking me if I was a cop (I happend to be wearing a suit and tie), then telling me he hates cops - I bit my tongue and simply replied that "no, I was a gentleman ... unlike him" (an older gentleman was in the passenger seat - he took the bottle from my hand) and I asked if the passenger could perhaps teach some manners to the driver.   Well, he lost it ... and went beserk.   Sadly, I could only react impassively, since it would have defeated the purpose of this exercise if my son were to see me perform any of the IA's that I oh, so dearly wanted to do ... sigh ... (plus, I don't fight for sport, and throwing garbage on the ground didn't warrant a trip to the emergency ward for this miscreant ... although his language did ...).

But, I was still able to chuckle - I didn't let the jerk get to me, and I resisted the temptation to phone in his license plate number and say that I was worried because the driver reeked of alcohol (he didn't, and two wrongs don't make a right ...).   I've still got his license plate number written down, however ...

Sum up?   It all comes under the heading of "never pass a fault" - if a child gets away with a small misdeed, they can become emboldened unless they're taught the error of their ways.   The next step can be petty crimes as a teenager, leading to more serious offences as a young adult ... (this past weekend in Toronto, there were two executions - double taps to the head - both victims in their early 20's ...).   Sure, one might write this off as "two less scumbags on the street", but ... the flip side is that there are killers out there who now think they can get away with it (as per another story about a bottom-feeder nicknamed "Bullet" who is the prime suspect in the shooting of a young nursing student ... ).   Thus, rather than run the risk of coming up against some insecure gangsta with a Saturday Night Special tucked into the drooping waistband of his ridiculously baggy pants (... when your Kevlar is somewhere else, and your own "lead projectile flashlight" is lawfully secured where you can't get to it when you need it the most ...) it's quite a bit more cost effective to nip it in the bud when they're children. 



> Be careful out there.


   _(Hill Street Blues)_

P.S.  Posting simultaneously with Steel Badge - beautiful comment re: Bushido - I agree fully.



> Those who appreciate true valour should in their daily intercourse set gentleness first and aim to win the love and esteem of others.  If you affect valour and act with violence, the world will in the end detest you and look upon you as wild beasts.  Of this you should take heed.
> _Emperor Meiji:  Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, 4 January 1883_


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## PARAMEDIC (21 Dec 2004)

Sorry Che made you walk into that one. ;D

Being brought up old school we had all the good stuff you talk about and plently of it plus the belt when you really messed up. It is a combination of a lot of things, some like to blame the media others the company their kids keep, but It all start out at home.
Fear is a good motivater but fear can only go so far, our parents understood that concept and used all the good stuff you state.

The point I was trying to make, Bossi gets it or explained it more eloquently than me was that correction or the enforcing of whats right and wrong at an early age corrects a lot of bs we see happening today.

To state that there is one reason (being parents) would be inaccurate and unfair, but with the same token parents play a big part in early development of a child not the media or the company  of friends the child keeps.

All in all and in my honest opinion society has been going to the sh1tter for a while now and it iisnt gonna get better any sooner.

So the best we can do is make sure our kids are brought up correctly and they do the same to their kids.


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## winchable (21 Dec 2004)

I was listening to my Clash album here at work, and thinking about the idea that "new" music is somehow to blame and realised that that's crock.
Music has been fighitng the man for a long time now, paramedic put it well as did Bossi when they said it starts out at home.
Can't leave the telly on to babysit the kids all and expect they turn out shippy.


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## Slim (21 Dec 2004)

There are some really good points brought up in this thread...

As a BG for one of the richest people in Canada my team is VERY concerned with youth violence in the way that it effects us doing our job.

Generally we try not to have a situation occur in which the principle (s) would need to be protected from underage thugs (the best defense is not to be there) but should something happen and one of us have to intervene, my question would be "what do we do?"

Can we intervine the same way? Can we use the same level of violence (force) on an underage kid? A 12 year old with a gun is still very dangerous and can kill you just as fast as a grown up can...

the police and  other law enforcement agencies always suffer hugely when dealing with the result of answering youth deadly violence in kind ( remember when Toronto Police shot that Puerto-Rican kid who threatened them with a knife...the local community that the kid came from went nuts!"Poor little Johny would NEVER do anything like that-never mind his rap sheet of course). Can you imagine a private CP team and what would happen to us?!

Thoughts are welcome

Cheers

Slim


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## bossi (21 Dec 2004)

Ya know, there's no such thing as a "good place" to assault your spouse, but ... some places are downright stupid.
Details are sketchy, but this afternoon it appears that some civvie decided to assault his wife ... at our main gate.
And so, some people wearing green camouflage uniforms invited this person to cool his heels with them while they awaited the arrival of the people in the cars that have red bubble gum lights on the roof ...
(reminds me of the time some thug assaulted an old man across the street from Moss Park Armoury ... where an infantry section was taking a fresh air break, but then did their civic duty without hesitation ...)


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Dec 2004)

Quote from Che,
_I was listening to my Clash album here at work, and thinking about the idea that "new" music is somehow to blame and realised that that's crock.
Music has been fighitng the man for a long time now_

I do agree with you here but I think there is one major difference, we listened  and saw only the homogenized versions of them on shows like " Saturday Night Special". Now they watch their "idols" kill/slap/revenge...the whole shabang...24 hours a day, seven days a week,, which ties into your next line,

_Can't leave the telly on to babysit the kids all and expect they turn out shippy._

...and this is what we have, a whole generation raised by TV/video or strangers in day care...we need to be Mom and Dad again, not paycheques.


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## winchable (22 Dec 2004)

It was actually a bad comparison on my part, I felt dirty after comparing the Clash to new music.


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## Spr.Earl (22 Dec 2004)

Lock the F'rs up and just teach them a lesson!

Before we came too Canada my Bro. and I messed up.
My Dad drove us down too the Local Borstal and showed us were we end up that was enough to scare us!
There are others on this site who know my Bro.

I'm 52 now,I'm not impressed with our Laws !!!!!! 

Bring back the Lash   ;D

Lock up the little Bastreds!!!!


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## bubba (22 Dec 2004)

i can't beleave it spr earl i agree with ya(haha).the young offenders act has got to be fixed,kids can do what they want till there 18.that kid's punishment in halifax is a joke,whats the mesage there to kids.stealing and murder is ok just be good after you turn 18,f33king punk.anyway i don't want to go on a rant.not to highjack thread but what do you guy's think about bringing back the death penalty .


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## Gunnar (22 Dec 2004)

Comes from never expecting, enforcing, or giving youths responsibility.   Parents won't do it.   Gov't won't let you do it.   "They're only kids, you need to be easy on them".   So these kids don't learn about the hard lessons of life, and they never "grow" up.   Then you have 18 year olds with an 8 year old mentality:   that they can get away with anything, even murder, because it doesn't matter and nobody will call them on it.

If the Liberals were serious about solving the problems of youth violence, they'd stop being Liberals.   That's really one of the best ways.   There needs to be a philosophical shift towards responsibility, accountibility and exposure to the hard truths of this thing called life.   People who aren't exposed to hard truths have to rely on those of us who remain to bail out their sorry asses when things go sour.

Think of life as a square.   The early Liberals realized that life was square, but thought that the edges were too pointy and sharp.   "Let us round the edges a bit", said they, "so that life is not so sharp and painful".   So the edges were rounded slightly, and life was still mostly square.   Then a new generation grew up under this square and thought "Let us round the edges a bit so that life is not so sharp and painful".   So the edges were rounded slightly, and life was still somewhat square.   And the few had to deal more intently with the essential squareness of life because they were keeping the corners rounded for the others.   Then a new generation grew up under this square and thought "Let us round the edges a bit so that life is not so sharp and painful".   And the few became fewer, and had to deal more intently with the essential squareness of life because they were keeping the corners round for the others.   Repeat for several generations.   Then a new generation of Liberals grew up under this irregular roundish form and thought "Let us make strange inroads into this geometric figure, so that there are never any corners, edges or predefined areas where one might see a point".   Then a generation was born that not only couldn't see the point, but couldn't imagine one...and they kept demanding that life be a three-dimensional semi-formed blob.   Then the few were crucified, or the new generation stole from others who lived in ideas of differently shaped three-dimensional semi-formed blobs.  Wars started and many people were killed as they each learned in very uncomfortable ways that not only did their competing ideas of life conflict, but that LIFE WAS SQUARE.   And many people died until the lesson was learned.

Then, a generation was born who realized that life was square, but thought that the edges were too pointy and sharp....

The same pattern repeats.   Occasionally, people rebel...sometimes, a group of squares gets ticked, and tells people that "life is a triangle" because, sick of having the edges trimmed at their expense, they force their world view on the "rounded edge" types.   The rounded edge types are unable to conceive of points, so they don't know how to deal with all the sharp edges, and the world becomes a triangle...and the formless, edgeless types get cut up.   That's dictatorship.   This too is a failure to recognize reality, because life isn't a triangle, and it isn't a blob.   It's a damn square.

Probably far too theoretical for most, but some of you will get it.


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## winchable (22 Dec 2004)

> that kid's punishment in halifax is a joke



Just to clarify on that kids punishment, the 82 sentence was for stealing the car.
He has yet to be sentenced for the death of the woman.
Though he will very likely get a lenient sentence.


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## Bograt (22 Dec 2004)

Thanks Che fro clarifying that piece of information. My "outrage" has been quelled a little.

My wife is a teacher at a local school. She relates to me almost everyday of children who are over prescribed and underparented. Schools  no longer "fail students," instead children are placed on various "pathways" to correspond to their "learning capability." This was done because policy wogs viewed that failing kids hurt their self esteem. As a result classroom are filled with kids who are struggling. (A recent 6 grade social studies test asked "name four Atlantic provinces"- Some of the answers were- France, Halifax, Mining,). The test have to be brough home and signed by the parents. What would you do if your kid brought home a test and he scored 10%? Unfortunately, some "parents" are merely egg and sperm donors.

Anyways, back to my rant. There are several pathways programs for kids, but no enrichment program. Parents are choosing french immersion programs because they want to segregate their kids from the problems of the general stream. 

I don't know what the answer is. Parents need to be held accountable. Kids need to be held accountable. There seems to a degradation of society as we try to appease the lowest common denominator. (I know that saying this isn't politically correct) The social safety net (and the values that make up its twine) have snared us all- it is the great social ghost net killing all. (Hows that for a Newfie analogy?  )


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## Garbageman (22 Dec 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> My wife is a teacher at a local school. She relates to me almost everyday of children who are over prescribed and underparented. Schools   no longer "fail students," instead children are placed on various "pathways" to correspond to their "learning capability." This was done because policy wogs viewed that failing kids hurt their self esteem. As a result classroom are filled with kids who are struggling. (A recent 6 grade social studies test asked "name four Atlantic provinces"- Some of the answers were- France, Halifax, Mining,). The test have to be brough home and signed by the parents. What would you do if your kid brought home a test and he scored 10%? Unfortunately, some "parents" are merely egg and sperm donors.
> 
> Anyways, back to my rant. There are several pathways programs for kids, but no enrichment program. Parents are choosing french immersion programs because they want to segregate their kids from the problems of the general stream.



As I've said previously in another thread, we very much can and do fail kids at the high school level.  Unfortunately, their patterns of behaviour and attitude are generally well established by the time they get to us, so most of them don't seem to be overly concerned about failing a grade 9 class for the third or fourth time.

We do offer an enrichment program in Ontario.  Kids have to go through a placement evaluation to get in, but only a minor hoop to jump through.  Unfortunately, it generally ends at high school.

Biggest thing that I've been stunned by in my tenure as a rookie teacher is the amount of empathy that I get from parents.  When a kid's got 6% in one of the easier courses (at an 'open' level - another can of worms), the parent should be very concerned.  But the most common response is "well, I know, Johnny's marks are always this bad, but oh well, he'll just have to take the class again".  I've heard it a lot from teachers who've been working for 20-30 years that there has been a major shift away from having parents there to back you up.  Now they're hard to even track down, and all too often interested in being their son or daughter's 'friend' instead of their parent.


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## The_Falcon (22 Dec 2004)

Although I completely agree 100% with most of what has been said here, especially the points raised the parents have to take responsibilty for thier kids and raise them properly, I disagree with you Che over the point you raised regarding music.     True music for a long time has spoken about opposition to authority and the need for individuality,   in most (if not all cases) it never promoted violence against authority and the need to refer to street justice. Youths are very impressionable people, and we can not as much as we would like to force parents to be parents.   Which leaves them looking for alternatives.   And in many cases they look to the hip-hop "culture" or "lifestyle" were they see retards like Eminem, 50 cent, Jaz Z, DMX getting fame and fortune by relating their exploits as a "thug"/"gangsta"/"PIMP".   Here is a sample of 50 cents lyrics from the Track "Heat" on his aptly named "Get rich or die trying" "[gun shots]

bridge
If there's beef, c#ck it and dump it
The drama really means nothin'
To me I ride by 'n blow ya brains out(brains out)
There's no time to c#ck it
No way you could stop it
When niggaz run up on you with them thangs out(thangs out)
I do what I gotta do I don't care if I get caught
The D.A can play this mutherfuckin tape in court
I'll kill you...

corus 
I ain't playing'
Hear what im sayin'
Homie i aint playin'
Catch you slippin' imma kill you
I ain't playin'
Hear what im sayin'
Homie i ain't playin'

Verse 1
Keep thinkin' im candy
'Til your fuckin' skull get popped
And your brain pop out the top, like Jack-in-the-box(yeh!)
In the hood, summer time is the killin' season
Is hot out this b7tch, that's a good enough reason(whoo!)
I see gangstas get religious when they start bleedin'
Sayin' "Lord Jesus help me!"
Cuz they @$$ leavin'
When that window roll down and that AK come out
You could squeeze your little hand-gun 'til u run out
And you could run for your back-up
The machine-gun shells gon' tear your back up
God's on your side, crap im aight with that
Cuz we gon' reload them clips and come on right back
It's a fact homie
You go against me you fucked!
I hit the drop if you could duck yourluckier then lady luck
Look nigga
Don't make me say cuz you moved out the hood
Cuz your moma still around dawg and that ain't good
If you get smart you be shookin' me
Cuz I get tired of lookin' for you, spray your moma crib and let your @$$ look 
for me"

Kids (doesn't matter if they are poor/rich/black/white) hear that kind of stuff and they start to think and act the same way.   If they act violent and tough they will get respect.   All these clowns should be sent to the far northern artic so they can not infect the brains of our kids.   Now before people jump on me "What about Manson, and Ozzy etc.." Manson has never promoted violence against people to get respect.   He may use violent sounding lyrics, and he does hate authority, he tells his listeners not to blindly follow everything and everyone (including him), but to thinks about new ideas and concepts, and to question the establishment/authority through intelligent debate.   50 cent et al tell people point blank I am just tellin it like it you have to use violence to get respect.


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## Steel Badger (23 Dec 2004)

I got your six Hatchet!

     Some years ago, people where worried about the lyrics of Punk groups like the Blitz, Bulldog Breed etc etc.
the truth is tho, that very few people (kids etc) followed the lifestyle depicted in their songs and movies like Romper Stomper. (Russell Crowes first movie and an eeire look into Australian Skinheads). Very very few were hard core...

the numbers now that idolize the" gangsta" scene and imitate it are legion....just look around.....

The proliferation of knives and guns being used to "save face" goes hand in hand with  a culture that thinks Baby Momma's are the best way to raise kids.

And before the hounds cry RACIST! I will say that my colleagues (of all colours and backgrounds....even the Campbells >) agree that there IS a huge negative influence.

Even the rap / hip-hop industry has become concerned about the negative societal impact. When Grand Master Flash started out, he was talking about righting injustice...
Now 50 cent and his "dawgs" rap about killing people, criminal life etc etc and #$%^&&^ HO's...

The problem is that the message is everywhere....it IS the mainstream.....

Skinhead punk was NEVER mainstream....it was hard(er) to find and was not the tune of choice at most of the nation's danceclubs....
I never saw small children singing and bopping along to the BullDog Breed: "Smack him if he's yellow, Smack him if he's black, Smack him till he fucks off and never comes back..."

But I do see kids singing along to 50 cent and his ilk....and the WORST part is....Parents think its CUTE!!!!!

I aske a good friend of mine about it once and she explained that she never thought of th elyrics, it wa s a catchy trendy tune and all the kids wanted to get the album.... So it didnt bother her that her 4 year old was singing along to 50 or EMINEM......
Whe i asked her if shed let him sing along to punk music she said "no...theose songs are all racist!"

And she is not alone, take a good look the next time you are at the mall etc...

The point i am trying to make is that people ( parents) are ignoring the message in the music BECAUSE it popular...
The media glamourizes THUG LIFE, makes gang-bangers heros.......
Kids want to be like their heros..........
they want to look and sound like them....
(look at the wee girls dressing like britney!)
 so kids want it.....and their parents buy it
Kids will imitate it if it seems cool....and the media MAKES it cool....
(look at the problems caused in schools over the latest shoes etc...kids get rolled for it)

Again I will mention cases where kids have been rolled or beaten for wearing clothes that imitate their idols...
In most cases they kids may not have known that dressing a certain way actually meant something or were unaware that there were those who took east Coast / West Coast indicators seriously.....


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## a_majoor (23 Dec 2004)

We can at least be glad that many (if not most) human beings are decent at heart, and even in the dark recesses of places like the "Jane-Finch corridor" or Banja Luka, people will be exposed to negative influences like Rap music or hate propaganda yet never decend to the level of barbarism suggested.

We do still need to hold people accountable for their actions, especially parents, and we need to do something about schools. Here in Ontario, there are more and more parents who are going to whatever alternative they can find and afford, French Immersion, Catholic, Parochial/Religious (including Jewish, Islamic and Hindu schools), Montessouri or as a last resort, home schooling. This will be a generation of kids who were instilled with values in childhood, and I can see them scrambling up the ladder and being the leaders, movers and shakers of tomorrow, bypassing their public school "educated" peers

This dosn't solve our problem in the here and now though....


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## JasonH (23 Dec 2004)

bossi said:
			
		

> The problem of increasing youth violence is a hot topic in the media these days.
> When I wrote my letter to the editor (published in today's Toronto Sun) I certainly wasn't advocating compulsory military service - it's been discussed before, and the consensus continues to be "our Army doesn't need to be further burdened with the dregs of our society".  However, due to the editorial comment/reply, it's worth mentioning here (in order to ensure we've got our act together, and all singing the same song ...)
> 
> Having said all of the above, I continue to be frustrated by inappropriate role models for today's youth, when there are so many better choices they could be making ... and better examples they could be following ...
> ...



Awesome write up bossi  :warstory:


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## winchable (23 Dec 2004)

Good point regarding the music Hatchet man, I suppose the newer opposition to authority is in the main stream.
The only reason I brought it up was because of the song "guns of brixton"

When they kick at your front door
How are you gonna come?
With your hands on your head
Or on the trigger of your gun

When the law break in
How are you gonna go?
Shot down on the pavement
Or waiting on death row

You can crush us
You can bruise us
But you'll have to answer to
Oh, the guns of Brixton


I still think blaming music for messed up kids is a copout. >


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## The_Falcon (23 Dec 2004)

If you blame only the music than yes it is a copout.  But the kind of influence that particular brand of "music" or "lifestyle" has on kids is based on how involved the parents are in thier kids lives. The more involved the parent (I don't mean the kind of involvement were the parents want to be friends, but actually set limits/discipline etc.) the less likely this garbage will infect young minds.  And it doesn't particularly matter were in society you fit in, absentee parents are at all levels, from the dirt poor to the super rich.  

I know there are no hard and fast numbers but people in involved in law enforcement will tell you (and are saying so here) that you can not discount the effect this stuff is having on kids.


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## bossi (23 Dec 2004)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> If you blame only the music than yes it is a copout.   But the kind of influence that particular brand of "music" or "lifestyle" has on kids is based on how involved the parents are in thier kids lives. The more involved the parent (I don't mean the kind of involvement were the parents want to be friends, but actually set limits/discipline etc.) the less likely this garbage will infect young minds.   And it doesn't particularly matter were in society you fit in, absentee parents are at all levels, from the dirt poor to the super rich.
> 
> I know there are no hard and fast numbers but people in involved in law enforcement will tell you (and are saying so here) that you can not discount the effect this stuff is having on kids.



Well, perhaps the music is merely a symptom of deeper, underlying problems such as lack of respect for authority ... ?


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## Bograt (23 Dec 2004)

bossi said:
			
		

> Well, perhaps the music is merely a symptom of deeper, underlying problems such as lack of respect for authority ... ?


I feel it is much more sinister- Indicative of bad taste.

Where are my Stan Rogers's cds?

Back on topic, the whole justice system, IMHO is in the toilet. From YO, to Aboriginal Sentencing Circles, to plea bargaining, and now Shari (sp??) Law recommended in Ontario. 

If in Newfoundland you are caught poaching a moose, you loose everything involved in the crime (ie gun, truck, helicopter) plus a fine. If you kill your husband you can keep custody of your child while you're on bail awaiting trail. Unfortunately in the circumstance I am alluding to she killed her child then herself as the trail date approached.


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## 48Highlander (23 Dec 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> I feel it is much more sinister- Indicative of bad taste.
> 
> Where are my Stan Rogers's cds?
> 
> ...



    As has been pointed out, the Sharia law proposal would deal with civil cases only.  In other words, two parties could agree to settle a lawsuit in a Sharia court, but criminal cases would still be handled by the regular judicial system.  It's an alternate form of conflict resolution, the same as if me and you decided to settle any differences we may have, and asked an NCO to serve as the arbitrator.  As long as the Sharia courts weren't funded by the public, this could actually end up saving taxpayers a good chunk of money.  The ONLY negative aspect of it is that Sharia law tends to be discriminatory towards women, and although both parties in a lawsuit would have to agree to handle it in a Sharia court instead or a public civil court, women could concievably be pressured by their community into going to the Sharia court.  However, I think they're more likely to be pressured not to go to court in the first place, so it's not much of a negative point.

    As to your example of moose hunting and murder, I can't think of a much better illustration of just how much is wrong with our criminal judicial system.


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## RorerQuaalude (23 Dec 2004)

Ok interestingly enough we discussed this exact topic in one of the Criminology classes for my major. Youth violence is actually rather sensationalized, and often the government's response to youth violence is understated. Here's the actual facts:

-Youth violence is grossly over-reported, 94% of cases displayed by the media are of violence, when in fact  youth crime as a whole is 12% of total crime in Canada. Only 20% of that 12% is actually violent. 80% of youth crime is non-violent (50% is property crime, 30% is drug-related/fraud/etc)

-Of all youth violent crime 71% of it is Simple Assault, which would be pushing, punching, etc. Essentially anything without a weapon and that doesn't cause bodily harm

-The *vast* majority of the victims of youth violence are other youths

-Canada actually has one of the most punitive youth justice systems. 25% of sentences given to youths are non-custodial (i.e. no confinement), as opposed to 53% in the US, 57% in the UK and 61% in New Zealand

-In Canada, a youth is 4 times more likely to receive a custodial sentence as an adult committing the same offence

-In Canada, youths are more likely to be sentenced to a longer sentence than an adult committing the same offence

-Boot camps haven't actually been proven to work, as they lack counseling programs. Military discipline is good, but with youth crime, the roots of the crime itself need to be tackled.

-Youth crime has a few sources per. some criminological theories. The Labelling theory basically states that once a youth is given the label of a criminal (i.e. by the courts or police) he/she will be given the master status of a criminal, and therefore follow that label.

-Another major source is due to Illegitimate Opportunity and the Middle Class Measuring rod as well as Strain Theories. These essentially state that underpriveledges youths are under social strain to complete legitimate goals, but do not have the means to do so, hence resorting to crime. They are also constantly compared to the 'Measuring Rod' of middle class values which they can not also legitimately achieve. 

-Differential Association basically states that criminal behaviour is learned through our social associations with others (i.e. peer groups).
Drift and Neutralization states that criminal behaviour is learned through associations, but also through these associations we learn means to neutralize the wrong aspect of the crime (i.e. 'It's not wrong, my buddies were doing it')

-Social Bond is an excellent way of explaining youth crime. It essentially states that everyone has a differing strength of bond to society. Family, peer groups, jobs, and a respect for the legitimacy of the law all constitute aspects of the bond. Someone with a stronger bond is less likely to commit a crime, while someone with a weaker bond is more likely to commit a crime. This can explain some youth crime especially in the sense of youths with poor community or family attachments.

-Off of the theoretical stuff, Young Offenders doesn't exist anymore, we now use the Youth Criminal Justice Act, which mends some of YO's holes. Basically is aims more at correcting those that can be corrected and punishing those that show no respect for society. Violent and repeat offenders are subjected to mandatory custodial sentences as well as their names being released to the public, amongst other things. I'd go into depth, but I think I've rambled on for long enough.


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## 48Highlander (23 Dec 2004)

You know...you can list all the statistics you want, and give all the rationalizations and explanations you can come up with.  I'm still more likely to listen to the police officers, line officers, and councilors who have to deal with "youth crime" on a daily basis.  If they say that there's a problem and that the system isn't working, what possible reason would I have to beleive a university course over them?


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## RorerQuaalude (23 Dec 2004)

No need to get hostile now, I was just stating these as another perspective. Getting overly tough on crime with extremely punitive measures actually doesn't stop crime and may actually increase it. Look at the literature on 'Three Strikes and You're Out' laws for proof. And yes the justice system is getting better, personally I take the word of the various judges and parole officers I've met over the years (friends of the family). On top of that, I have a relative who's the director of a youth correctional facility near Welland, and he deals with the products of youth crime daily. It's also in his opinion that the new legislation is improving, and that in all but the most extreme cases, locking youths up won't solve anything, that in most cases counseling and parole will do more merit. If anyone knows the current situation on youth crime it's those who hear the cases, sentence and deal with the sentences and the offenders.


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## Bograt (23 Dec 2004)

I'm biting my tongue because you are new, and I do not want to discourage you from future posts. 

With that preface,   :

I do not prescribe to the "not my problem, its society's fault" BS. Everyone is a victim, including the criminal bastards? Could you provide me with the youth stats in Singapore, where I believe they do public caning urr i mean caining?


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## 48Highlander (23 Dec 2004)

Counceling is all well and good.  It's an important part of the rehabilitation proccess.  However, the reliance of counceling alone within the Canadian "corrections" system pretty much mirrors the UN's reliance on diplomacy and negotitation.  Both organizations fail to reckognize that talking and negotiation are useless without the force to make people listen.  The very language used to describe the goals of each organizations is a perfect example of what's wrong with them.  We don't have a penal system any more, we have a "corrections" system.  We don't punish people, we show them the error of their ways.  The UN doesn't engage in warfare, they engage in "peacemaking" or "peacekeeping".  Soldiers sent on these missions aren't sent to do what's right, they're just there to encourage the locals to be peacefull.  This sort of thinking is all fine and well when dealing with rational civilized individuals, but it fails miserably the moment you have to deal with someone who doesn't give a shit about your beleifs or values.


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## RorerQuaalude (23 Dec 2004)

I blame the Liberals for watering down any semblance of punishment in the justice system. Any justice system that lets a monster like Homolka pursue a degree needs a serious change in priorities. As a sidenote, for most offenders I promote the idea of an entirely penal reaction to their crimes, but within plausible limits. Youth crime is an entirely different beast where no right or wrong answer (aside from the idea that crime is OK) is present. On youth crime, we're entitled to our own perspectives and impressions, and what those in the legislation fail to realize is that it'll be a balance of all of our perspectives that will bring about an effective youth justice system (which is somewhat of an oxymoron).


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## Steel Badger (23 Dec 2004)

48th


With all respect due to your good self:


Hogwash.....Corrections does NOT correct....

It simply warhouses.........We have NO tools to correct, Hell, we have few enough tools to maintian order,,,


Mr dear Herr Qualude:

You say that the YO system is improving? Maybee from the dizzying heights ascended to by your good relative...

but from a line officers (polizei or corrections) perspective. that is crap,...

I would humbly suggest you come visit an Youth Facility and see what they are like,,,,

In my facility alone, violent assault with weapons is up over 200% in the youth areas....

they KNOW nothing can happen to em iside or outside the joint.....

Ivory Tower legislation DOES NOT translate into effectiveness on the line.


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## 48Highlander (23 Dec 2004)

You misunderstood what I was saying.  I never said that "corrections" corrects anything.  If anything, I was arguing the opposite.  What I DID say is that the mindset of those responsible for that terminology and for the resulting system is that we should be "correcting" instead of "punishing".  I never claimed that they achieved either of those goals.  In fact I was pointing out that attempting to correct someones behaviour is useless unless you have the force (punishment) to back it up.


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## Brad Sallows (23 Dec 2004)

To echo what's been stated above: responsibility, consequences, loss of privileges.

Consequences should be inconvenient and/or require effort to resolve.  Detention is not necessarily the answer.

"Never pass a fault" is also a good rule of thumb.

To an extent, one problem is the insistence of some Canadians that all the bumps be smoothed out of life.  Another problem is the belief held by some parents that their children should not be disciplined by others (and for a select few, not even by themselves).  There is too much emphasis on self-esteem as something that is to be granted rather than earned.


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## Canadian.Trucker (23 Dec 2004)

I know there is a youth project close to where I live.  It's called "Project Turnaround".  I got to see a bit of what they do because I worked for a dairy distribution centre before I joined the CF.  It is treated like a prison, as in barred gates and guards.  However these guys are not given privileges as we know them.  They are made to work in the kitchen, have inspections, and have other daily chores and duties that they must follow or even what meagre privileges they have are taken away.  I believe most if not all "guests" are male from the ages of roughly 14-19.

I am not sure of how successful this place is, but I am curious to find out now and may do some more digging.  I would guess though that it would be more of a success than just institutionalizing these guys and not having them learn some work ethic.  Could be wrong...?


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## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Dec 2004)

I was trying not to get too involved here but I can't let this go by without commenting on RorerQuaaludes " facts".
This is not a slam on you but only on the pathetically out of touch courses that get run at our "schools of knowledge" on the justice problems.

Quote,
_Ok interestingly enough we discussed this exact topic in one of the Criminology classes for my major. Youth violence is actually rather sensationalized, and often the government's response to youth violence is understated. Here's the actual facts:_

From who and what?

-Youth violence is grossly over-reported, 94% of cases displayed by the media are of violence, when in fact youth crime as a whole is 12% of total crime in Canada. Only 20% of that 12% is actually violent. 80% of youth crime is non-violent (50% is property crime, 30% is drug-related/fraud/etc) 

The media "over-reports" anything that will sensenationalize the issue, thats not news, but anyway all those facts mean poop-all when the "property crime" is your dwelling and the "drug-related" are trying[ and are] selling to your kids. Quoting something like this leads to that stupid notion that "oh well, Johnny's just doing B&E's. :

Of all youth violent crime 71% of it is Simple Assault, which would be pushing, punching, etc. Essentially anything without a weapon and that doesn't cause bodily harm

Well isn't that thoughtful of me that of the 10 people I assaulted last week, that I only used weapons on three of them.

-The *vast* majority of the victims of youth violence are other youths

So what, the *vast* majority of white-collar crimes are other white-collars, the vast majority of adult crimes are other adults...etc
How does this statement justify anything but wasting paper?

Canada actually has one of the most punitive youth justice systems. 25% of sentences given to youths are non-custodial (i.e. no confinement), as opposed to 53% in the US, 57% in the UK and 61% in New Zealand

Now this is just too simple....because most of our cases never make it that far as the police/crown have more important things they must do with their resources that hold hands with the defendant. [ persue the most serious]

-In Canada, a youth is 4 times more likely to receive a custodial sentence as an adult committing the same offence
In Canada, youths are more likely to be sentenced to a longer sentence than an adult committing the same offence

To quote Sherman T. Potter..."horse hockey"

Boot camps haven't actually been proven to work, as they lack counseling programs. Military discipline is good, but with youth crime, the roots of the crime itself need to be tackled.

Again more BS, "haven't actually been proven to work"....by what standards? 100%-90%.. and has your "professor actually been to camp turnaround to see if there is councilling?... I'll venture not.

Youth crime has a few sources per. some criminological theories. The Labelling theory basically states that once a youth is given the label of a criminal (i.e. by the courts or police) he/she will be given the master status of a criminal, and therefore follow that label.

So of course this means when he/she wears their pants too big and other assorted "gansta" stuff [music, for example]they somehow automatically become cold-blooded "gansta's".   Please...
Now I'm talking out of PERSONAL experience.. I got the label of "criminal" when I was 16 [no young offenders then, thank God] and I spent 21 wonderful days in the old Guelph bucket.....now according to that "egg-head" theory I should anyday now revert to my pre-ordained "status' ....more kife on a stick!

-Another major source is due to Illegitimate Opportunity and the Middle Class Measuring rod as well as Strain Theories. These essentially state that underprivileged youths are under social strain to complete legitimate goals, but do not have the means to do so, hence resorting to crime. They are also constantly compared to the 'Measuring Rod' of middle class values which they can not also legitimately achieve. 

Again...WHAT?....is there a special school somewhere that people just study making excuses for everything?   Well at least we now know that well-off kids never commit crimes. :

Quickly now, if you really wish to get something out of that course thats usefull, take a part-time job at a young offender house and then go back and show your "professor" a real world instruction.


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## Bograt (23 Dec 2004)

Well done.


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## 48Highlander (23 Dec 2004)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Again...WHAT?....is there a special school somewhere that people just study making excuses for everything?  Well at least we now know that well-off kids never commit crimes. :



    Just to add to that...I did a hell of a lot of stupid things growing up, many of which would have landed me in jail if I'd been caught.  I knew several drug dealers/gangster wannabes who would have fallen under young offender legislation.  The "impoverished" ones were selling small amounts on the street and in their housing developments.  The ones selling larger ammounts were either middle-class kids, or ones who were much better off.  I remember one individual in particular who had a tendancy to start gang-fights, steal cars, and move a lot of drugs.  He lived with his parents in a $2 million house.  Ironicaly enough he was just a few doors down from the (at the time) chief of police.

    I didn't grow up in the ghetto so I don't know exactly how poverty effects crime, but I CAN tell you that it's deffinitely not limited to families with a "low income".


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## Steel Badger (23 Dec 2004)

48th....

I can back you up as well; ...

Alot of our clientele are not suffereing from "middle class values" that they cannot achieve. They ARE middle class, and upper class.
Criminal proclivity it seems, knows no bounds, and by limiting their viewpoint to "poverty makes criminals" the sociologists ignore the fact that wee rich kids can be nasty SOB's as well......


Cheers and Froelichte Weinachten!


SB


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## The_Falcon (24 Dec 2004)

"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that." --Homer Simpson 
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics" Disraeli


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## bossi (24 Dec 2004)

RorerQuaalude said:
			
		

> Ok interestingly enough we discussed this exact topic in one of the Criminology classes for my major. Youth violence is actually rather sensationalized, and often the government's response to youth violence is understated. Here's the actual facts:
> 
> -Youth violence is grossly over-reported, 94% of cases displayed by the media are of violence, when in fact  youth crime as a whole is 12% of total crime in Canada. Only 20% of that 12% is actually violent. 80% of youth crime is non-violent (50% is property crime, 30% is drug-related/fraud/etc)



I'd like to read some more on this, please - could you please post a bibliography (so we can determine how up-to-date these stats are), plus I'd be interested in knowing which course this was (and where and who taught it).  Also, these stats are a snapshot - I'd be interesting to see some analysis of trends (i.e. as compared to the previous ten years).
Thanks.


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## Freddy Chef (24 Dec 2004)

Hey bossi,

Was the rash of youth violence in Toronto what motivated you to respond to the Toronto Sun?

Sit Rep's, first two weeks of December in Toronto:

http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20041216-015/page.asp

http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20041220-017/page.asp

http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20041221-011/page.asp

Viewer Feedback:

http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20041222-011/page.asp

Yes, there seems to be a difference in values between violent, criminal youth and anyone who has served in the CF. From the members on this message board, it isn't just isolated to Toronto, it's nation wide. Not to leave civilians out, any civilian that has never served in the CF, that is a decent Canadian citizen, would also see a horrible lack of values in violent, criminal youth.

Solutions?

1) Prevention. More education for parents; your kids are your responsibility. More education for kids/strict media restrictions for kids. [Yes, censorship] Moreover, society's attitude towards violence [the gangsta lifestyle] has to change. Tough to do when someone is making millions from the record album sales.  

2) Enforcement. The Criminal Code of Canada to replace The Youth Criminal Justice Act. Critics would argue, you can't lock up kids with adults. I'm not saying that at all. We already have youth correctional facilities in place. What I am saying is, if an adult is convicted of aggravated assault and has to serve 7 years, a kid has to serve 7 years if convicted of aggravated assault. [aggravated assault = an attack that leads to severe injury or maiming] The only difference being the location of the sentence; youth correctional facilities. Any New Youth Criminal Justice Act should only pertain to method of corrections.

3) Correction. Media bombardment to be incorporated into the correctional process, the counseling phase. If repeated exposure to music and videos of the gangsta lifestyle can twist a kid's sense of morals and values, why can't repeated exposure to music, videos, and other media instilling decent morals and values? I'm not saying only play gospel music, and episodes of â Å“Leave it to Beaverâ ? in a youth correctional facility. Background music with subliminal messages that crime is wrong, and self-esteem is earned. 

â Å“Subliminal programmingâ ?? â Å“Orwellian-Big-Brother-Brainwashingâ ?? â Å“Cruel and unusual punishmentâ ?? The correctional officers on this message board, and the public seem to be at wits end with violent youth crime. What else is there?

As one of the correctional officers suggested, spend a day in a youth correctional facility before you consider an inmate's rights, and the means of correction.


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## pbi (27 Dec 2004)

On a related note, I remain very skeptical about the true value of the "boot camp" programs in actually bringing about the long-term, long-lasting behavioural changes that are required to change most offenders into halfway productive and law abiding people. Beyond making us feel good (_Yaah! Kicked their teenage *sses didn't it!, etc_) I wonder just exactly what the statistical track record is?

IMHO people make a false connection between the success of "boot camp" in the military and its usefulness in correcting criminals. 

-To begin with, if Canadian statistics are anything at all like US figures, then IIRC about half of these people are mentally disordered to some degree. At the low end it may be anti-social personality disorder, while further along the disorder spectrum it might even be psycopathy. In other words, they have difficulty functioning properly at all. This was certainly reinforced to me by comments I noted from prison staff in various Federal institutions in Western Canada a few years ago;

-next, these people are in prison/detention because they have to be, not because they desire to be;

-third, IMHO the "boot camp" system appears to work in the military for a much wider range of factors, not the least of which is that after boot camp, the soldier goes on to experience other aspects of military life in an environment that reinforces good, group-oriented behaviour and sanctions (be it ever so weakly....) bad behavoiur. Even with all of that, the effects of boot camp can wear off: if it were not so, we would not require an ongoing system of military discipline that includes CFSDB. Further, in the last decade or so the CF has produced a number of unpleasant criminals of various types, all of   whom presumably went through recruit training: evidently it is not a guarantee. The widely varying levels of personal discipline and behaviour in various units under various types of leaders further supports my contention IMHO. Now,lets take the offender who goes through "boot camp" and is then released back to civilian life. What happens? I will wager that the great majority of these will not return to function in an environment where whatever useful traits they learned in "boot camp" will be reinforced: quite the contrary. I bet you they wil go   back to their old life in fairly short order. In fact, IMHO this return to their former sh*tbird haunts is often a factor in recidivism.

I'd really like to see some proof that "boot camp" actually works out in making good ciitizens out of offenders. Cheers.


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## Slim (27 Dec 2004)

Hey PBI

I have enjoyed reading your above post and I feel you make some excellent points.

Having had a limited exposure to the criminal justice system and corrections Canada (I worked in a half way house for a time as security) I have often thought about the type of person who is incarserated for serious criminal acts.

There are many methods constantly being suggested to "re-habilitate" people who are convicted of serious crimes (murder, rape, ect) ranging from programs to time spent with the victems and their families in order to realize just how badly the victim was hurt.

Does it have an effect...well in some cases maybe it does. However in most cases it does not becuase the person committing the crime must have the desire to change. 

I believe that the same factor applies to youth violence. Bruce M and other forum members here connected with the Canadian Corrections system would probably agree that the average youth who committs a crime would not be changed by these "bootcamp" programs because they really don't have a desire to alter the way they live their lives...Or perhaps can't alter their circumstances of their lives outside of the corrections system. Any system can be survived if the individual is tough enough and the will to do so is present. 

Or even if the desire to change is there, what hapens when the formerly incarserated individual is released straight back into the very same circumstsnces that prompted him/her to commit the crime in the first place.

What I'm getting at is that I think that in SOME cases the system has to realize that "re-habilitation" is not possible and the welfare of society has to be placed above the welfare of the person committing the crime.

My thoughts

Slim


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## Torlyn (27 Dec 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> Does it have an effect...well in some cases maybe it does. However in most cases it does not becuase the person committing the crime must have the desire to change.



Might want to re-check your facts...  Given that the recidivism rate is around 17% (juristat reader) it's apparent that MOST people to not re-offend, thus are rehabilitated back in to society.  Most people who go to jail only do so once.

T


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## 48Highlander (27 Dec 2004)

I don't know where you got that 17% figure from but it's nowhere close to the truth.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Ottawa/Michael_Harris/2004/11/12/pf-710601.html

http://www.psepc-sppcc.gc.ca/publications/corrections/200302_e.asp

    Thge first article claims a rate of 37%, the second, a study by the government of Canada, claims a rate of 40% or slightly more.  In fact, the reconviction rate for VIOLENT crimes is 13%, so maybe that's where you got your much lower figure from?

    Also, recidivism rates for boot camps have always been lower than for regular youth prisons, but I don't have the stats at the moment to back it up.


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## Torlyn (27 Dec 2004)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> I don't know where you got that 17% figure from but it's nowhere close to the truth.
> 
> http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Ottawa/Michael_Harris/2004/11/12/pf-710601.html
> 
> ...



THe 17% I got from the juristat doesn't include re-reconviction, which the second link you posted does, ergo the lower number from the juristat.  I probably should have said that statistically, 83% of offenders only "offend" (get convicted, what have you) once.  Of those 17% that re-offend, they do so more than once, which is where the higher 40% comes from...  (My brain hurts now...)  Anywho, there you go.  If nothing else, it's a wonderful example of how statistically speaking, statistics aren't fact.  

T


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## 48Highlander (27 Dec 2004)

Uhm, I was about to agree with your post untill I saw the line about 83% only getting convicted once.  If roughly 40% of offenders will re-offend one or more times, that means that only 60% will only be convincted once.  The 17% figure is a statistic of those who only re-offend once, but that falls within the 40% who re-offend one or more times.  In other words, 60% of those going to jail will learn their lesson the first time.  17% will return for a second visit before getting the message.  That leaves 27% who will continue to commit crimes and be convicted for them.

    Keep in mind also that all these statistics only track offenders for a 2 year period.  That means that if I get released from jail today, and then go back to jail in 2 and a half years, I won't be counted as a repeat offender.  This despite the fact that I may be commiting all sorts of crimes in between and simply not be caught and convicted for 2 and a half years.

    Also keep in mind that these statistics do NOT count criminals who serve time at a federal penetentiary and are then convicted and sentenced to a provincial jail.  In other words, I could be released from a federal pen today, knock over a convinience store toorrow, and end up in a provincial jail next month, and not be counted as a repeat offender.

    And also, none of these stats are relevant when dealing with young offenders:  they're not included in the numbers.

    So overall, I'd say these statistics are next to useless, which explains why the government was able to use them to try and show that we only have a 10% federal re-offender rate.  You can use them to show almost anything, but any in depth analysis of the argument will make it clear that a lot more study needs to be done before any conclusions are drawn.  What is clear though is that the re-offender rate is at least 40% even with all the failiures in how these statistics were gathered.


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## pbi (28 Dec 2004)

I am also extremely skeptical of this figure of 17%. I recall that during the prison recce I referred to above (admittedly about ten years ago...) IIRC the figure of 80% was mentioned on several occasions. This seems a bit high, and I did not ask for statistical proof at the time. However, if we factor in all of the other ways that miscreants can re-offend but yet apparently slip under Corrections Canada's   recidivism radar , IMHO a figure of considerably more than 17% becomes likely.

In any case, I remain very strongly convinced that the likelihood of re-offending (or, conversely, the likelihood of becoming a law-abiding, job-holding citizen...) has a whole lot more to do with what kind of company you keep, and what kind of environment you live in, after you have done your time, be that boot camp, cells, or some minimum security country club. 

As I have commented elsewhere before, I really wonder how much actual "rehabilitation" occurs as opposed to just warehousing. (and this is not a jab at the uniformed officers in CSC or elsewhere, who have a very difficult job dealing with some of the most hideous people in Canada). Further, I wonder that we may not actually be producing a class of criminals who are no longer deterred by prison because it is merely an inconvenience. I use Stony Mountain north of Winnipeg as an example: I have heard from several sources that it is badly infiltrated with aboriginal gangs, and inmates are generally only temporarily inconvenienced in conducting their criminal affairs outside the wire, not prevented from them, since there are ways in which they can keep business going. Even when I did the prison recce years ago, comments were made then by uniforms (not by "suits") that it was a good question as to exactly who was really running things in the worst prisons, and that for a number of guards their job was really just a question of surviving in a "live and let live" arrangement.

How well does this system really serve us, I wonder? This is an honest question not a rhetorical one. Cheers.


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## Slim (28 Dec 2004)

> Might want to re-check your facts...  Given that the recidivism rate is around 17% (juristat reader) it's apparent that MOST people to not re-offend, thus are rehabilitated back in to society.  Most people who go to jail only do so once.



hey Torlyn

Ask Bruce M or some of the others what, exactly, constatutes a "repeat Offender" in Canada. The answer will make you shake your head!

The system is made to *sound* much better than it is!

Slim


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## pbi (28 Dec 2004)

> The system is made to sound much better than it is!



I don't have much current first-hand knowledge, but I fear that Slim is right. I think that CSC, like any large bureaucracy that frequently attracts negative public attention, has a built-in defense reaction to make itself appear successful. The problem may be even bigger than CSC: maybe nobody really knows what can be done with these people short of life imprisonment or banishment to the Arctic or something. Cheers.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Dec 2004)

Quote from PBI,
_Further, I wonder that we may not actually be producing a class of criminals who are no longer deterred by prison because it is merely an inconvenience. _ 

We are not producing them, we've already produced them. Going to prison is just part of the way the "business" is run nowadays.
A prison sentence is no difference to most than you going on your next tour, except that you won't get 3 visits a week and one weekend in the trailer every 8 weeks or so......and the people running CCS have even less credibility than some old Nortel execs. :-[


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## pbi (28 Dec 2004)

> We are not producing them, we've already produced them. Going to prison is just part of the way the "business" is run nowadays.


Yes, this is exactly what I think. In our Bde we have a CWO who is also a corrections officer. Stories he has told me suggest that little has improved since I visited places like Mountain,Agassiz and Drumheller. There seems to be as much danger to the officers (and their families...) as there is to the inmates. 

In particular (at the risk of being accused of various things...) it seems to me (living in Winnipeg) that the very dysfunctional state of urban aboriginal society has produced some extremely hard-core and nasty gangs made up of people who are afraid of very little, certainly not of going to jail. How does one go about the rehabilitation of someone who has little or no functioning idea of right or wrong, and who has been raised in the environment represented by the worst parts of the North End? Perhaps this does not worry people east of the Lakehead, but IIRC out West the majority of inmates in both systems are aboriginals. Cheers.

[Moderator edit:  Fixed "quote" codes for clarity - no content altered]


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## Torlyn (29 Dec 2004)

Slim said:
			
		

> hey Torlyn
> 
> Ask Bruce M or some of the others what, exactly, constatutes a "repeat Offender" in Canada. The answer will make you shake your head!
> 
> The system is made to *sound* much better than it is!



No questions there...  I've done work in forensic psych (ah, what a checker'd past I have) so I know what the worst of the worst do.  Certain pedophiles that we had to treat as human beings come to mind...  (God, I wouldn't wish that job on ANYONE)  I also know that for many repeat offenders, they've refused to pay fines, served time, and done the same thing again.  It all counts to the stats, you know.    But I think that 48highlander said it best, "So overall, I'd say these statistics are next to useless, which explains why the government was able to use them to try and show that we only have a 10% federal re-offender rate".  It sucks, we've shown how useless stats are, and yet i STILL had to take a bunch of stats courses to get my degree...  How's that for redundant?  

T


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## The_Falcon (2 Jan 2005)

This story first appeared Sat, but now there is more info on what happen including the age of the suspect



> Slain robber part of gang: Source
> 
> 17-YEAR-OLD LEVELLED SHOTGUN BEFORE COP KILLED HIM
> 
> ...



Now we sit and wait for the vilification of the officer who shot this degenerate thug, instead of refering him to the nearest communty drop in centre. I particularly like the parts that mention he had a "lenghty criminal history" (at only 17!!) and was well known to Durham regional police.  What gets me is they can't publish his name or face, yet that would most definately assist in figuring out his partners.

In other news Toronto Police also arrested a suspect in connection with the murder of the young teen that started this whole thread.  Again HIS identity can't be published to protect HIM. http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1454&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


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## FastEddy (4 Jan 2005)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> This story first appeared Sat, but now there is more info on what happen including the age of the suspect
> 
> Now we sit and wait for the vilification of the officer who shot this degenerate thug, instead of refering him to the nearest communty drop in centre. I particularly like the parts that mention he had a "lenghty criminal history" (at only 17!!) and was well known to Durham regional police.   What gets me is they can't publish his name or face, yet that would most definately assist in figuring out his partners.
> 
> ...


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