# "Toronto 18" terrorists:  Arrest/court/aftermath



## stukirkpatrick

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/02/rcmpraids06022006.html



> National security forces arrest at least 8 in Toronto raids
> Last Updated Fri, 02 Jun 2006 21:37:46 EDT
> CBC News
> The RCMP plan to answer more questions on Saturday about a series of raids and arrests in the Toronto area on Friday.
> 
> At least eight people were taken into custody on terrorism-related charges, though there is little more information available.
> 
> More than 100 officers were involved in the sweep, including members of the Integrated National Security Enforcement Team.
> 
> More arrests and more charges are expected overnight.
> 
> The RCMP will release more details at a news conference on Saturday.


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## stukirkpatrick

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060602/toronto_arrests_060602/20060603?hub=TopStories


> Police arrest terrorist suspects in Toronto
> Updated Sat. Jun. 3 2006 12:15 AM ET
> 
> CTV.ca News Staff
> 
> In a sweeping raid, police arrested about a dozen men in the Toronto area on terrorism-related charges Friday night, the RCMP announced.
> 
> Intelligence sources allege the men were part of a terrorist cell, close to carrying out attacks on one or more Canadian targets.
> 
> Police seized chemicals used to make explosives and weapons.
> 
> "That's the tool of choice for anybody who wants to cause damage," a source who asked not to be named told The Canadian Press.
> 
> The suspects are either second-generation Canadians or recently immigrated to Canada with their families.
> 
> Sources claimed the men have no connection to al Qaeda, but were allegedly inspired by militant Islamic groups.
> 
> The arrests were made in co-operation with the Integrated National Security Enforcement Team, Cpl. Michele Paradis, a spokeswoman for the RCMP said in a release.
> 
> The operation involved at least four police forces, CSIS and the RCMP.
> 
> Undercover officers made the arrests, which were all carried out in the Greater Toronto Area.
> 
> "The investigation is ongoing," Paradis said Friday night.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper was made aware of the raid but did not comment. A spokesperson said Harper did not want to impede the operation as it unfolds.
> 
> The arrested suspects were reportedly being held in a police station in Pickering, a northeast suburb of Toronto.
> 
> Heavily-armed police officers kept guard outside the building Friday.
> 
> According to The Toronto Star, CSIS has monitored the suspects since 2004, while the RCMP began its investigation last year.
> 
> Sources discounted earlier reports that the CN Tower and the city's subway system were allegedly potential targets by the group.
> 
> More details about the arrests will be released during a Saturday news conference at 10 a.m. ET.
> 
> With files from The Canadian Press


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## AmmoTech90

Coincidence, probably, but you never know. 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/03/nterr03.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/06/03/ixuknews.html
The *speculation* in the media about the British raid is that it happened ahead of when it was really epxected due to concerns about public safety.


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## John Nayduk

Police arrest terrorist suspects in Toronto

A police officer stands guard in Pickering, Ont.

Law enforcement officers stand outside a police station where suspects were taken into custody on terrorism-related charges Friday night in Toronto.

CTV.ca News Staff 
  
Updated: Sat. Jun. 3 2006 8:13 AM ET 

In a sweeping raid, police arrested about a dozen men in the Toronto area on terrorism-related charges Friday night, the RCMP announced.

Intelligence sources allege the men were part of a terrorist cell, close to carrying out attacks on one or more Canadian targets.

Police seized chemicals used to make explosives and weapons.

"That's the tool of choice for anybody who wants to cause damage," a source who asked not to be named told The Canadian Press.

The suspects are either second-generation Canadians or recently immigrated to Canada with their families.

Sources claimed the men have no connection to al Qaeda, but were allegedly inspired by militant Islamic groups.

The arrests were made in co-operation with the Integrated National Security Enforcement Team, Cpl. Michele Paradis, a spokeswoman for the RCMP said in a release.

The operation involved at least four police forces, CSIS and the RCMP.

Undercover officers made the arrests, which were all carried out in the Greater Toronto Area.

"The investigation is ongoing," Paradis said Friday night.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper was made aware of the raid but did not comment. A spokesperson said Harper did not want to impede the operation as it unfolds.

The arrested suspects were reportedly being held in a police station in Pickering, a northeast suburb of Toronto.

Heavily-armed police officers kept guard outside the building Friday.

According to The Toronto Star, CSIS has monitored the suspects since 2004, while the RCMP began its investigation last year.

Sources discounted earlier reports that the CN Tower and the city's subway system were allegedly potential targets by the group.

More details about the arrests will be released during a Saturday news conference at 10 a.m. ET.

With files from The Canadian Press




© Copyright 2002-2006 Bell Globemedia Inc.


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## Infanteer

All this does is remind of this thread:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34449.45.html

More specifically, this debate....



			
				R0B said:
			
		

> What's my point? It's that Canada isn't going to get attacked by terrorists.



 8)

The slim profile given on the suspects (not affiliated but inspired by Al Qa'ida) definitely fits the "arch-type" given by Marc Sageman in his analysis of "international jihadists".  If true, it just goes to show that Al Qa'ida is indeed no longer an organization by a movement....


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## Infanteer

I just heard on the live news broadcast by the RCMP officer that 3 tons of ammonium nitrate fertiliser was found; only 1 ton was used by McVeigh in the Oklahoma attack.  It had the potential to be a devastating attack if it was followed through.


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## The Bread Guy

At the risk of speculating, some blogs have, in the past, talked in some detail about "terror training camp" in Ontario, west of Ottawa....

http://thecanadiansentinel.blogspot.com/2006/02/terror-camp-in-combermere-ontario-and.html
http://dustmybroom.com/?p=3034

Don't know if it's foil hat stuff, though, so usual caveats apply.

FULL DISCLOSURE:  I've collected more links in my newsletter of 22 Feb 06 (https://milnewstbay.pbwiki.com/f/22-02-06.htm - check stories under "GWOT" for links)


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## 17thRecceSgt

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060603/toronto_arrests_060603

Suspects possessed bomb making materials: RCMP 
CTV.ca News Staff

Police have arrested 12 men and five young offenders on terrorism-related charges in the Toronto area, the RCMP announced in a press conference Saturday morning.

Police said the suspects possessed massive amounts of fertilizer, often used to make bombs.

The individuals are all residents of Canada, and "for the most part citizens of Canada," said Mike McDonell, assistant commissioner of the RCMP.

The individuals were charged with offences under the Criminal Code of Canada, after police staged a sweeping raid Friday night in the Toronto area. 

"The RCMP in cooperation with our partners through out integrated national security enforcement team ... have arrested individuals who were_* planning to commit a series of terrorist attacks against solely Canadian targets in Southern Ontario*_," said McDonell.

Charges included participating in or contributing to the activities of a terrorist group, including training or recruiting; the commission of indictable offences, including firearms or explosives, for the benefit of a terrorist group; and providing or making available property for the purposes of terrorism.

Following is a list including the names, ages and addresses of the men who have been arrested and can be named.

Fahim Ahmad, 21, Toronto; 
Zakaria Amara, 20, Mississauga, Ont.; 
Asad Ansari, 21, Mississauga; 
Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30, Mississauga; 
Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, Mississauga; 
Mohammed Dirie, 22, Kingston, Ont.; 
Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, Kingston; 
Jahmaal James, 23, Toronto; 
Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19, Toronto; 
Steven Vikash Chand alias Abdul Shakur 25, Toronto; 
Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21, Mississauga; 
Saad Khalid, 19, of Eclipse Avenue, Mississauga.
Police said the men were found to be in possession of massive amounts of bomb-making materials. 

"This group took steps to acquire components necessary to create an explosive device using ammonium nitrate, which is a commonly used fertilizer," McDonnell said. 

"Three tons of ammonium nitrate was ordered by these individuals and delivered to them. It was their intent to use this for a terrorist attack."

By comparison, he said that the Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168 people, was completed with only one ton of ammonium nitrate. 

"This group posed a real and serious threat. It had the capacity and intention to carry out these attacks," McDonnell said.

The RCMP would not name any of the suspected targets, but said the Toronto Transit Commission was not seen as a potential target. 

The press conference was attended by representatives of the Peel, York, Durham and Toronto police services, as well as the RCMP and CSIS.

Police made the arrests in a sweeping raid in the Toronto area Friday night.

Intelligence sources allege the men were part of a terrorist cell, close to carrying out attacks on one or more Canadian targets.

The suspects are either second-generation Canadians or recently immigrated to Canada with their families.

Sources claimed the men have no connection to al Qaeda, but were allegedly inspired by militant Islamic groups.

The arrests were made in co-operation with the Integrated National Security Enforcement Team, Cpl. Michele Paradis, a spokeswoman for the RCMP said in a release.

The operation involved at least four police forces, CSIS and the RCMP.

Undercover officers made the arrests, which were all carried out in the Greater Toronto Area.

"The investigation is ongoing," Paradis said Friday night.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper was made aware of the raid but did not comment. A spokesperson said Harper did not want to impede the operation as it unfolds.

The arrested suspects were reportedly being held in a police station in Pickering, a northeast suburb of Toronto.

They were scheduled to appear in court Saturday.

Heavily-armed police officers kept guard outside the building Friday.

According to The Toronto Star, CSIS has monitored the suspects since 2004, while the RCMP began its investigation last year.

With files from The Canadian Press


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## tomahawk6

UK police raids yesterday and now raids in Canada. I wonder if they are related.

Fox article.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198050,00.html


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## Franko

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> UK police raids yesterday and now raids in Canada. I wonder if they are related.
> 
> Fox article.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,198050,00.html



There are no such things as coincidences in regards to this type of thing    

Chances are....yes.

My $0.02 worth

Regards


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## The Bread Guy

PM's Statement
http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?category=3&id=1191

Prime Minister Stephen Harper issued the following statement in relation to the recent arrests made in Toronto, announced earlier today:  

“This morning, Canadians awoke to the news that our law enforcement and national security agencies have arrested 17 individuals for terrorism related offences.

“These individuals were allegedly intent on committing acts of terrorism against their own country and their own people.  

“As we have said on many occasions, Canada is not immune to the threat of terrorism.  Through the work and cooperation of the RCMP, CSIS, local law enforcement and Toronto’s Integrated National Security Enforcement Team (INSET), acts of violence by extremist groups may have been prevented.

“Today, Canada’s security and intelligence measures worked. Canada’s new Government will pursue its efforts to ensure the national security of all Canadians.”


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## vonGarvin

Don't know if this means anything, but the list of the accused from cnn.com (available at http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/06/03/canada.names/index.html) lists names and streets and cities (eg: joe blow, whatever street, Anytown, Canada); however, a canada411.com search failed to yield ANY results on these guys.  None of them.  Let's hope that we got them all and that these guys will do some serious time (if convicted, naturally).


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## Scoobie Newbie

1.  Perhaps restrictions on explosive material should be put in place.
2.  Hopefully the trial starts and finishes quicker then the Air India debacle.
3.  Perhaps the sheep of Canada will wake up (doubt it though).


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## vonGarvin

Quagmire said:
			
		

> 3.Perhaps the sheep of Canada will wake up (doubt it though).


I doubt it as well.  I can't wait to hear how these poor young men were so put off by Canada's restrictive society that they were FORCED into this action, jail isn't the answer, and you and I are to blame (Jack?  You reading this?  Feel free to use this)


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## TMM

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> 4. Joy that our security forces have baged some would be terrorists.



That's my camp. Better them than me on the TTC.


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## Stirling N6123

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149329598732&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

The lawyer for some of these yobs, is already beating his chest, and saying that some of these guys, should not be where they are. And saying that their treatment last night was unfair. How on earth would he know that unless he was there with them in Pickering. And what gives about him asking if they were given copies of the Qu'ran last night while in cells???????? Last time I checked the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it said nothing of the Qu'ran.......geee......do we as westerners get a bible?

Into the cells they go, lock door, key in garbage. Problem solved.


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## Jack O.

They just named all of the adults arrested, as well as where they were living in Canada, one in particular was living not a 5 minute walk from me in Toronto. I'm not surprised.


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## aluc

> "Into the cells they go, lock door, key in garbage. Problem solved."





+1 my good fellow!


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## hhour48

17 Terror Suspects Arrested in Toronto

Seventeen Canadian residents were in custody Saturday on terrorism- related charges, including plots to use explosives in attacks on Canadian soil, authorities said.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police said they arrested 12 male adults and five youth and foiled plans for terrorist attacks against targets in southern Ontario.

Officials showed evidence of bomb making materials, a computer hard drive, camouflage uniforms and what appears to be a door with bullet holes in it at a news conference Saturday morning.

"This group took steps to acquire three tons of ammonium nitrate and other components necessary to create explosive devices," said assistant Royal Canadian Mounted Police commissioner Mike McDonell said.

McDonell said that is three times the amount used to blow up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

The arrests were made Friday, with some 400 officers involved.

McDonell said the suspects were either citizens or residents of Canada and had trained together.

"The men arrested yesterday are Canadian residents from a variety of backgrounds. For various reasons they appeared to have become adherents of a violent ideology inspired by al-Qaida," said Luc Portelance, the assistant director of operations with CSIS _ Canada's spy agency.

Heavily armed police officers ringed the Durham Regional Police Station in the city of Pickering, just east of Toronto, as the suspects were brought in late Friday night in unmarked cars which were drove into an underground garage.

The Toronto Star reported Saturday that Canadian youths in their teens and 20s, upset at the treatment of Muslims worldwide, were among those arrested.

The newspaper said they had trained at a camp north of Toronto and had plotted to attack CSIS's downtown office near the CN Tower, among other targets.

Melisa Leclerc, a spokeswoman for the federal Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day, had no comment on the arrests.

In March 2004, Ottawa software developer Mohammad Momin Khawaja became the first Canadian charged under the country's Anti-Terrorism Act for alleged activities in Ottawa and London. Khawaja was also named, but not charged, in British for playing a role in a foiled bomb plot. He is being held in an Ottawa detention center, awaiting trial.

The Canadian anti-terrorism law was passed swiftly following the Sept. 11 assaults, particularly after Osama bin-Laden's named Canada one of five so-called Christian nations that should be targeted for acts of terror. The others, reaffirmed in 2004 by his al-Qaida network, were the United States, Britain, Spain and Australian, all of which have been victims of terrorist attacks.

The anti-terrorism law permits the government to brand individuals and organizations as terrorists and gives police the power to make preventive arrests of people suspected of planning a terrorist attack.

Though many view Canada as an unassuming neutral nation that has skirted terrorist attacks, it has suffered its share of aggression, including the 1985 Air India bombing, in which 329 people were killed, most of them Canadian citizens.

Intelligence officials believe at least 50 terror groups now have some presence in the North American nation and have long complained that the country's immigration laws and border security are too weak to weed out potential terrorists.


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## beach_bum

Bratok said:
			
		

> The Toronto Star reported Saturday that Canadian youths in their teens and 20s, upset at the treatment of Muslims worldwide, were among those arrested.
> 
> The newspaper said they had trained at a camp north of Toronto and had plotted to attack CSIS's downtown office near the CN Tower, among other targets.



What I fail to understand, is how they could POSSIBLY imagine that blowing things up and killing innocent people is going to gain them ANY sympathy at all!  In what way do they think that is going to improve the way the world views Muslims at this time?   ???


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## Scoobie Newbie

Similar to Stockholm syndrome I suspect.


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## tomahawk6

They don't want sympathy just want to kill as many non-believers as possible in the name of Allah.


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## zipperhead_cop

As much as this is a big "score one for the good guys" do not underestimate the judicial systems ability to cock this thing up.  You can bet that the youths will not be kept in custody, and will cry undue influence and probably get punted.  It will be interesting to see if our socialist judges can get over themselves long enough to realize the harm that is going to ensue if we don't drop the hammer on these arseholes.  
This is my favorite quote from the various articles:

Alvin Chand, brother of Toronto suspect Steven Vikash Chand, scoffed at the charges outside the courthouse as several officers took up surveillance positions on surrounding rooftops and a helicopter circled. 
"He's not a terrorist, come on, he's a Canadian citizen," Chand said of his brother. "The people that were arrested are good people. They go to the mosque. They go to school, go to college."  
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/03062006/2/national-terrorism-threat-becomes-reality-canadians-cops-allege-homegrown-plot.html

Yes, certainly no violence around the world has been promoted by Islamic college students.   :
No doubt this will all prove to be a Zionist plot against innocent Islamic gardeners everywhere.


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## jb9293

If you want to see how delusional some people are just click on this link. 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/yourspace/CSIS_terrorists.html

You can read letters people sent to the CBC about the comments Jack Hooper made before the Senate defence committee. You can read such gems as:



> What a load of self-serving, fear-mongering rubbish. How many would-be saviours are ensuring their continued employment by inventing bogeymen for us to be afraid of?
> 
> — David Cooper



and:



> I dare Hooper to prove his allegations THIS WEEK without trucking out some seedy little delinquents of colour. We've ALWAYS had those around. The only difference was back before "The Great Decider" in the USA started his war of terrorism, the punks were usually white and hung around in gangs.
> 
> — M.S.Blanchette | Picton, Ont.



Got enough proof now?  :


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## 1feral1

You can't cure a rabid dog can ya's. These 17 pieces of garbage need to be exercised for info, then dissapear forever without a trace. What can you do with maggots like these, let them out on bail? Just wait for the limp dicked Canadian legal system to spit them out under their own recognicence, claiming they are from broken homes, bla bla bla. We have all heard it before.

Wait for it.

I won't be suprised.

On a darker side, your government got lucky this time. Next time maybe not. 

This latest Cdn incident is not about the CF in Afghanistan, its about the weakest link in a western country. Honestly, I think Canada is piss weak with its migration laws and leaky borders etc. Hey I've got the right to say it, I was born in Saskatoon, spending the fist 35yrs of my life in western Canada. 

This is not even a near miss, but what is it going to take for some decent co-operation bi-partisan hand-holding in Ottawa to get hard on anti-terr laws. There is still too many limp wristed lefties out ther to block common sense right wing reality bills and laws. The 'oh we do not wish to offend' police will be out in full drag swishing their arses down the halls of parliament parading in full!

Again, wait for it.

Your opposition and other 'hangers on' are your own country's worst enemies. Remember that the next time these grubs get lucky (and they will).

Sad but true.

Cold beers,

Wes


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## tomahawk6

Hard to explain away 3 tons of ammonium nitrate.The multicultural apologists don't do the public any favors by down playing the threat to society posed by radical islam.


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## vonGarvin

bilton090 said:
			
		

> He's not a terrorist, come on, he's a Canadian citizen," Chand said of his brother. "The people that were arrested are good people. They go to the mosque. They go to school, go to college."


How, pray tell, should someone act if they are planning on blowing up CSIS HQ in Toronto (or whatever)?  Should they run around with bomb drawings under their arms, ranting on about how tough it is being Moslem, how everyone thinks you've got a bomb making kit in your bathroom, and then complain when the authorities break your bomb making kit in your bathroom?  Do they run around yelling "ALLAH AKHBAR" everytime a Canadian Soldier is killed in Afghanistan?  
*NO*
THey will go to school.  They will go to a mosque/temple/church (as applicable).  Don't people get it?  I mean, check out TV next time they catch some freaky murderer.  What will people say? "He seemed like such a nice neighbour!"  Hey, if it were easy to pick out the next OBL or mass murderer, then alot of crimes just wouldn't happen!


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## pronto

What are they smoking? About 3 Tonnes of Ammonium Nitrate... > 

What's the answer to THAT Mr. Hindy? O I know - it is _*good*_ explosive 'cause it was collected by these "good, mosque-going, college-attending dudes" 

...Still waiting for the Lawyer to address the need for that much fertilizer...


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## vonGarvin

"In court, Mr. Galati was accompanied by Aly Hindy, a Toronto imam and friend of the highly-controversial Khadr family, who have well-established connections to al-Qaeda.

Mr. Hindy, a controverisial Iman, leads an Islamic centre in Scarborough, said he knew several of the accused because they prayed at his mosque but said they were not terrorists.

So, Mr Hindy, friend of the Khadr's, is vouching for these guys?  Isn't that like Martin Bormann vouching for a person accused of being a nazi?


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## GAP

Aside from the conspiracy, what bothers me the most about this whole issue is the nay-saying and excuse mongering by the muslim community and most left wingers. Denying you have a problem, does not solve it. 

We are in for interesting times, as I predict there will more rhetoric and action on the part of muslims. We have the laws, but not the gonads to enforce them, to have people with these views removed. They have voided their right to live in Canada.


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## aluc

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front


Well, well, look who's back in the limelight....



A gathering of familiar faces at Brampton courthouse

COLIN FREEZE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

BRAMPTON — Canada's hard-line Muslims can seem a pretty tight-knit group at times. As a long line of completely new terrorism suspects were being shuffled in and out of the prisoner's box, there were many familiar faces looking on in the courtroom.

In the visitors' gallery Saturday morning sat Zaynab Khadr, the sister of Abdullah Khadr, who is fighting extradition to the United States. He is accused of supplying weapons to al-Qaeda.

Ms. Khadr, who once expressed an admiration for suicide bombers on national TV, sat looking at the prisoner's box, speaking Arabic with Aly Hindy, a controversial fundamentalist preacher.

Having had many of their own run-ins with the RCMP and CSIS, Ms. Khadr and Mr. Hindy were intent on doing what they could for the families of the newly accused.

One such man was Tariq Abdelhaleem.

"Hello," he said, looking shattered beyond words, as a reporter approached. "It's my son."

This was stunning. I had gotten to know Mr. Abdelhaleem last year, after he issued a controversial fatwa against too much innovation in Islam.

The imam was worried that Toronto's Muslims were not sticking to scripture and were also becoming unmindful of the real problems in the world.

"Our Muslim brothers and sisters are dying in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya and other parts of the world," he had written at the time on his website.

"The puppet systems that are in power in the Islamic world are collaborating with the Crusaders and Zionists to keep the ummah [Muslim community] under oppression."

I wrote an article on the fatwa and quoted a more moderate Muslim leader as saying that the decree was "stupid." Mr. Abdelhaleem was stung by this. A few months later, he invited me over for tea and cookies, and we had a pleasant chat about religion in his Mississauga home.

It was in the basement that I met his son Shareef, and several of his friends, all young professionals eager to express their own views to a non-Muslim writer. They, too, were outraged by the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. And they wanted to discuss racial profiling.

They were all upset, but they never appeared extremist. Now, one year later, 30-year-old Shareef Abdelhaleem was chained to other suspects, his anxious eyes meeting his father's wounded gaze in court.

The RCMP officials had just announced they had seized three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer; they said that "homegrown" Canadian Muslims wanted to turn the material into a bomb and attack targets in Canada.

The RCMP and CSIS have never put together an al-Qaeda-like case of this magnitude before. In the courtroom, veteran federal prosecutor Jim Leising seemed eager to proceed, if somewhat reserved.

Defence lawyer Rocco Galati, who has worked on a number of terrorism cases, said he is unimpressed by this one. "Big whoop-de-do," said Mr. Galati outside court, referring to the government evidence.

"I've seen a lot of fertilizer over the last eight years," he joked.

There is a contingent of people who will always believe Muslims are more often victims of conspiracies than perpetrators. Mr. Galati is in this camp. And certainly Mr. Hindy, the controversial leader of the Salaheddin Islamic Centre, feels that way too.

"Are we now the enemy within? We completely reject that," Mr. Hindy said, outside court. The imam said that because "Afghanistan is closed now," CSIS and the RCMP are targeting young Canadian Muslims, just so that departments can justify their budgets.

"This is to keep George W. Bush happy, that's all," he scoffed.

Mr. Hindy said he knew about half of the defendants, mostly from the times when they used to pray at his mosque. He conceded there might be one or two troublemakers in the group, but predicted most of the accused would be acquitted.

More worrisome, the imam said, was the direction Canada is headed. Devout Muslims, he said, are at the moment more free to practise religion in Canada than in states like Egypt that crack down on fundamentalists. Mr. Hindy is afraid authorities here will round up people indiscriminately.

As for Zaynab Khadr, she wasn't saying much. The family's exploits in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Canada are by now legendary. Her father, a friend of Osama bin Laden, was killed by the Pakistani government. Her eldest brother was arrested last year by the RCMP as the United States seeks his extradition on terrorism charges. Her second-youngest brother is awaiting murder charges in the legal limbo that is Guantanamo Bay.

In court, Ms. Khadr seemed content to look after two other young women also wearing full, black head-to-toe Islamic dress. One of them yelped as a teenager appeared in the prisoner's box, pointing out he was without his prescription eyewear. The judge said he'd try to make sure the suspect would get his glasses. And then he vowed that every suspect would get a Koran, as consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Like everyone else who entered the courtroom, Ms. Khadr and her friends left under the gaze of a gauntlet of assault-rifle-toting police officers, and were swarmed by reporters who asked them questions.

"Don't talk," Ms. Khadr yelled to one suspect's brother as she and her friend made their way to her Green 1997 Pontiac minivan.

And with that, they drove away.


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## George Wallace

Octavianus said:
			
		

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
> 
> A gathering of familiar faces at Brampton courthouse
> 
> COLIN FREEZE
> This was stunning. I had gotten to know Mr. Abdelhaleem last year, after he issued a controversial fatwa against too much innovation in Islam.
> 
> The imam was worried that Toronto's Muslims were not sticking to scripture and were also becoming unmindful of the real problems in the world.
> 
> "Our Muslim brothers and sisters are dying in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Chechnya and other parts of the world," he had written at the time on his website.
> 
> "The puppet systems that are in power in the Islamic world are collaborating with the Crusaders and Zionists to keep the ummah [Muslim community] under oppression."
> 
> I wrote an article on the fatwa and quoted a more moderate Muslim leader as saying that the decree was "stupid." Mr. Abdelhaleem was stung by this. A few months later, he invited me over for tea and cookies, and we had a pleasant chat about religion in his Mississauga home.



No one seems to find this a little unsettling?  If Moderate Islamic states have leaders who these Fundamentalists don't like, then they are considered "Puppets of the Americans" and deserve to be attacked or removed violently.  No one can read this in between the lines of these statements?  Not only are the Western ideals a threat to them, but so are any that don't follow their strict Radical beliefs.

And Colin Freeze can't see this?  Amazing!






			
				Octavianus said:
			
		

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
> 
> It was in the basement that I met his son Shareef, and several of his friends, all young professionals eager to express their own views to a non-Muslim writer. They, too, were outraged by the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. And they wanted to discuss racial profiling.
> 
> They were all upset, but they never appeared extremist. Now, one year later, 30-year-old Shareef Abdelhaleem was chained to other suspects, his anxious eyes meeting his father's wounded gaze in court.
> 
> The RCMP officials had just announced they had seized three tonnes of ammonium nitrate fertilizer; they said that "homegrown" Canadian Muslims wanted to turn the material into a bomb and attack targets in Canada.
> 
> The RCMP and CSIS have never put together an al-Qaeda-like case of this magnitude before.



Colin Freeze really doesn't appear to be very astute, does he?





			
				Octavianus said:
			
		

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
> "I've seen a lot of fertilizer over the last eight years," he joked.



I don't know if he were referring to his profession or just didn't realize the Timothy McVeigh used only a third of that amount in his bomb.




			
				Octavianus said:
			
		

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
> There is a contingent of people who will always believe Muslims are more often victims of conspiracies than perpetrators. Mr. Galati is in this camp. And certainly Mr. Hindy, the controversial leader of the Salaheddin Islamic Centre, feels that way too.


Play the old "We are victims" card.




			
				Octavianus said:
			
		

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
> "This is to keep George W. Bush happy, that's all," he scoffed.


Play the "anti-American" card.



			
				Octavianus said:
			
		

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
> Mr. Hindy said he knew about half of the defendants, mostly from the times when they used to pray at his mosque. He conceded there might be one or two troublemakers in the group, but predicted most of the accused would be acquitted.


Seems we have links to Hindy and Khadr starting to become public.




			
				Octavianus said:
			
		

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
> More worrisome, the imam said, was the direction Canada is headed. Devout Muslims, he said, are at the moment more free to practise religion in Canada than in states like Egypt that crack down on fundamentalists. Mr. Hindy is afraid authorities here will round up people indiscriminately.


Isn't Canada a great country to allow you these freedoms, and how do you repay us?  Perhaps you would like to return to a "Puppet of the Americans" style State and face their Civil Liberties and Legal Systems?  Time for us to seriously look at our Legal System's corruption of the Law and strictly begin a campaign to Deport these types of 'criminals'.




			
				Octavianus said:
			
		

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060605.terror-court05/BNStory/Front
> As for Zaynab Khadr, she wasn't saying much. The family's exploits in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Canada are by now legendary. Her father, a friend of Osama bin Laden, was killed by the Pakistani government. Her eldest brother was arrested last year by the RCMP as the United States seeks his extradition on terrorism charges. Her second-youngest brother is awaiting murder charges in the legal limbo that is Guantanamo Bay.
> 
> In court, Ms. Khadr seemed content to look after two other young women also wearing full, black head-to-toe Islamic dress. One of them yelped as a teenager appeared in the prisoner's box, pointing out he was without his prescription eyewear. The judge said he'd try to make sure the suspect would get his glasses. And then he vowed that every suspect would get a Koran, as consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.



Further evidence that we are "too soft on these types of criminal"; too soft on serious criminals of all kinds.   Yet, we will come down heavily on the minor infractions, and inhumanly Deport productive contributors to Canada's society on lesser Immigration technicalities.


----------



## Gunnar

> And then he vowed that every suspect would get a Koran, as consistent with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.



Life, liberty and security of person...oh yes, and free Korans, provided by the state.  

How is the freedom to practice your religion the same as getting a Koran in prison?  Bring your own damn books, or ask your family to provide them.  Why are we giving you books?


----------



## a_majoor

Outstanding article in the Toronto Star, of all places:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1149371435807



> Take a good look at what's going on
> Jun. 5, 2006. 11:01 AM
> ROSIE DIMANNO
> CITY COLUMNIST
> 
> Be sickened. Be frightened. Be angry. But don't you dare be shocked.
> 
> Unless you've been had.
> 
> Either way, the time has long passed for domestic bliss born of ignorance, virtue and wilful denial.
> 
> For everyone who thought Canada could cower in a corner of the planet, unnoticed and unthreatened by evil men — even when the most menacing of a very bad lot has twice referenced this country as a target for attack — take a good, hard look at what's been presented and what's being alleged.
> 
> Three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, thrice the amount used by Timothy McVeigh to demolish a government building in Oklahoma City. Cellphone detonators. Switches. Computer hard drive. A 9-mm pistol. Soldering gun. Camouflage gear.
> 
> And 17 males — born here or reared here, certainly settled here, some of them little more than children — formally remanded yesterday on terrorism-related charges.
> 
> If the accusations prove true, this isn't just slumming with jihad. For the benighted who claim that the war on terrorism is terrorism: Here is your war.
> 
> Could be, of course, all a wild misunderstanding, colossal police blundering, systemic racism, nothing more sinister than a barbeque in the country.
> 
> Could be the thing it appears, though — evidence of an enemy within.
> 
> And not just those accused who allegedly plotted to blow things up in southern Ontario — maybe the CN Tower, perchance the baseball stadium; most likely venues of large gathering, *because the objective of terrorism*, which this may or may not be, isn't *merely to slaughter but to bludgeon the living with fear, to silhouette in gore one's utter vulnerability.*



follow the link to read the entire article.


----------



## Wizard of OZ

Was just on the NEWS here, the three tons of fertilizer that the "terrorist" bought, was bought from an undercover RCMP officer.  Hmm hand in cookie jar holding cookie.

I just finished reading all the post in the thread and agree with almost all of them in the fact that

1)  All of them should be deported, jailed or removed after conviction.

2)  I have no doubt that some lawyers and judges will get all tree huggy peace love and joy for everyone on this issue and say that they were treated harshly and that because they missed some after school special on how to share they should be set free. As this could not possible be their fault, so it must be the rest of Canadas

3) This has little or nothing to do with the CF being in Afghanistan, if it did it would have come sooner, and they would have used it as an excuse.

4) This incident does not mean all Arabs/Muslims are bad.  And shame on anyone who uses this to attack them as a whole.  Or their religion.  

5) You can brainwash someone so far, but if they continue to carry out what they know to be wrong then they are just as guilty.  We have seen this before.  History does repeat itself.

I just hope that the Canadian public does wake up and smell the coffee, Terrorist are alive and well in Canada and they don't care who they kill Innocent or infidel.


----------



## Wizard of OZ

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> bin Laden himself was extremely wealthy, no?
> 
> As for someone else's comments on deporting these terrorists - well, they were born here so where would you send them? And if you did send them abroad, wouldn't they be more likely to be terrorists again than if they were here in a cell?



I hear Afghanistan has some really nice cells and I am sure they would be able to find a copy of the Koran there.

Just cause we deport them does not mean that they have to be freed.

I have a hard time believing that if a Biker was placed in a jail cell and wanted a copy of the bible he would get one.


----------



## Wizard of OZ

Was it a sting? 

Were the alleged terrorists captured in the country's biggest ever terrorist bust infiltrated by agents and later entrapped? Does it matter? 

"Constitutionally it sure does," said terrorism expert Dave Harris last night. 

He understands the emotion of a public -- who can't fathom fellow Canucks using three tonnes of explosives against them. "From a human point (it doesn't matter)," said Harris, of Insignis Strategic Research in Ottawa. 

People are fed up, shocked that Canadians could ever plan something so heinous against its own state. And they want tough justice. 

It's not that simple in our country. This will be sorted out legally and with a microscope of the Charter of Freedoms-wise lawyers who will scan through every paragraph of every document after receiving them through disclosure. 

"Defence lawyers are entitled to the entrapment defence under Section 8 of the Criminal Code," Harris said. 

And they will use it. It's their best defence. It has worked before. There will be plenty of debate of the interpretation of that act in the years to come. 

This was not talked about when 10 of the country's highest ranking police authorities stood before an equally large media throng -- highlighting the successful break up of an alleged gang of Muslim-Canadian youth alleged to be organizing an "al-Qaida inspired" monster plot to wreak havoc. 

One of the lawyers called it a "show." Harris disagrees, saying the operation was the most important action these cops could have ever taken. He hopes there are more to come. 

"We need to ram the message home that Canada is intimately involved and engaged in international terrorism and we better start taking action if we want to avoid chaos." 

But Ottawa lawyer Michael Edelson tells Sun Media any suspects who walk free because of improper tactics will cause a loss of confidence in the spy system. Harris, a former CSIS employee, has more faith in Canadian intelligence. 

"It looks like a competent, well managed effort," he said, adding it will take a lot more than a bunch of people crying foul about methods to get out of these serious charges. 

As long as law enforcement "has reasonable suspicions" and acts in "good faith," they can employ approaches that can have suspects charged criminally. 

But Edelson argues there have been cases where all the suspects have ended up being cleared. 

It makes one wonder are convictions or acquittals on terrorism charges two years from now in a court of law as important as stopping a murderous terrorist plot now? 

Wonder how the 9/11 families would answer that? 

It's in the legal arena now. This is the reality of a politically correct, socially conscious, fair, just and democratic society. 

While law enforcement was celebrating thwarting a massive, systematic attack on several southern Ontario targets, these kinds of questions, if not allegations, were being thrown around by lawyers all weekend -- many of whom were complaining about an overzealous Canadian intelligence world. 

It just goes to show catching bad guys is never easy. Convicting the smart and organized among them is often 10 times harder. 

The public may never know what kind of crushing horror we missed out on thanks to the joint policing effort. Perhaps --when it comes to thinking about the potential carnage, and just how the authorities were able to prevent it -- some things are better left unknown.
By JOE WARMINGTON


----------



## geo

Wonder how the 9/11 families would answer that? 

While I sympathyse with 9/11 families, they live in another country and, to an extent, they don't matter.


----------



## Bograt

geo said:
			
		

> Wonder how the 9/11 families would answer that?
> 
> While I sympathyse with 9/11 families, they live in another country and, to an extent, they don't matter.



Symatics, I realize, but IIRC over 80 Canadians died in New York that day.


----------



## vonGarvin

geo said:
			
		

> While I sympathyse with 9/11 families, they live in another country and, to an extent, they don't matter.


Garvin calls an emphatic Bravo Sierra on that one.
Here's just ONE who's family lives in this very country called  
Joseph Collison
Check him out on the web
http://www.terroristattack.com/messages.php?id=522


----------



## a_majoor

Lord how the BS is flowing already.

The perps were identified starting in 2002 due to their activities on certain radical web sites, long befor we stepped up our mission in Afghanistan.

Entrapment occurs when the police plant an idea which would not otherwise have occured to the perp; since they were plotting away in 2002, it seems clear that "entrapment" is a very huge streach.

As for those calling for deportment; these people are Canadians (although obviously not citizens in any real sense of the word). Perhaps a special holding facility could be built on Hans Island to accomodate them. If they want a warmer climate, I understand there is an appropriate place in Cuba run by the USA, and perhaps Castro could be persuaded to house them on the "Island of Pines", which unlike Gitmo has *real *documentation of torture and abuse (not that the press wants to spend any time investigating that.......)


----------



## Redbeaver

It looks like entrapment vs. sting operation with the (fake) ammonium nitrate is going to be their main defense and probably the big public debate.  Although these guys have been under surveillance for 2 years so I'm sure there is a mountain of evidence against them and I don't doubt the RCMP's ability to mount a proper and legal sting operation.

It sucks that the Muslim community is coming under fire for this, I haven't seen them up in arms to defend these guys at all.


----------



## Wizard of OZ

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Lord how the BS is flowing already.
> 
> The perps were identified starting in 2002 due to their activities on certain radical web sites, long befor we stepped up our mission in Afghanistan.
> 
> Entrapment occurs when the police plant an idea which would not otherwise have occured to the perp; since they were plotting away in 2002, it seems clear that "entrapment" is a very huge streach.
> 
> As for those calling for deportment; these people are Canadians (although obviously not citizens in any real sense of the word). Perhaps a special holding facility could be built on Hans Island to accomodate them. If they want a warmer climate, I understand there is an appropriate place in Cuba run by the USA, and perhaps Castro could be persuaded to house them on the "Island of Pines", which unlike Gitmo has *real *documentation of torture and abuse (not that the press wants to spend any time investigating that.......)



Why would the press want to report on that.  It would not do anything to make the war on terror any better or worse. :

Secondly,  Of course the BS is flying, any lawyer worth his salts has to start the conspiracy/brainwash/us vs them/ smoke screen early and maybe he can get them declared insane or temporary insanity over a 2 year period.  It is sad the lawyers are jumping all over this to defend these people but anything to get their face on television/ name in print/ voice on the radio.  This is not to say they are guilty I will let a court decide that.  But by thunder if they get off on a technicality or because they felt overwhelmed with the state of the world S@IT I am going to loss it.  It is hard enough for the police to do the job being asked of them to stop these people to have them walk off Scott free on some bull S&it loop hole. 

If the cops did their job right (which I am hoping happened, 2 yr gig some big bucks there you know this was micro-managed) And the Crown does their job we should all breath easy.  The only problem may lie in the judge could be some bleeding heart liberal who thinks that it may be better if these poor people go back to their own community to get rehabilitation to learn to adjust to "Western Culture"

Their has to be a fine line between multicultural and respecting the laws of a set society.  But this is a grey area for another day.

Majoor hit it right on.  Hans Island sounds nice especially around Jan with a tent for prison, no guards just a tent and a fishing poll.


----------



## MarkOttawa

Excerpts from two good pieces today:

1) Christie Blatchford in the Globe (full text not online);
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v4/sub/MarketingPage?user_URL=http://www.theglobeandmail.com%2Fservlet%2Fstory%2FLAC.20060605.BLATCH05%2FTPStory%2FTPComment%2FOntario%2F&ord=9078737&brand=theglobeandmail&redirect_reason=2&denial_reasons=none&force_login=false

'Ignoring the biggest elephant in the room

I drove back from yesterday's news conference at the Islamic Foundation of Toronto in the northeastern part of the city, but honestly, I could have just as easily floated home in the sea of horse manure [elephant dung, surely - MC] emanating from the building.

So frequent were the bald reassurances that faith and religion had nothing -- nothing, you understand -- to do with the alleged homegrown terrorist plot recently busted open by Canadian police and security forces, that for a few minutes afterward, I wondered if perhaps it was a vile lie of the mainstream press or a fiction of my own demented brain that the 17 accused young men are all, well, Muslims.

But no. I have checked. They are all Muslims...

Barely two days after the nighttime raids...the great Canadian self-delusion machine was up and running at full throttle...

Such is the state of ignoring the biggest, fattest elephant in the room in this country that at one point Chief Blair actually bragged -- this in answer to a question from the floor -- "I would remind you that there was not one single reference made by law enforcement to Muslim or Muslim community" at the big post-arrest news conference on Saturday.

Indeed, law-enforcement types there took enormous pains to say just the opposite: The arrested men are from a diverse variety of backgrounds ("They're students, they're employed, they're unemployed" one official said, which is akin to running the gamut from A to oh, C); they come from all parts of Canadian society; blah, blah, blah...

But what came clear at that meeting yesterday [at the Islamic Foundation], which was an odd mix of community venting and news conference, is that many of those people who went to the microphone to ask questions, and some of those who answered them from the podium, are far more concerned about a possible anti-Muslim backlash to the arrests than they are about the allegations that a whole whack of their young people were bent on blowing something up in the city; that they are generally worked up about Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and the Americans in Iraq, and that even as they talk about Islam being a religion of peace, they do not sound or appear particularly peaceable... '

2) Lorne Gunter in the National Post--the nonsense that our mission in Afstan caused "homegrown' terrorism;
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=de6578ef-177b-41e8-9cd1-9092c8c3afa5

'It was only a matter of time
...
We could let Muslims practise sharia law within their own community and guarantee Muslim students and employees set-aside space at schools and work for their five-times-daily prayers, and still the jihadis among us would conspire to buy explosives and plot to blow up Canadian targets until we all agreed to live under sharia law and worship Allah at dawn, mid-morning, noon, mid-afternoon and dusk.

Radical Muslims are not interested in what we will let them do. "You do your thing and I'll do mine" is a Western notion. Jihadis are motivated by a desire to make everyone else in the world bow to Muhammad, too...

The response of too much of officialdom to last week's revelations will be to call for redoubled efforts on behalf of pluralism: new anti-racism ad campaigns, more money for multicultural groups and festivals, new curricula in schools, more cultural sensitivity training for judges, politicians and bureaucrats...

Meanwhile, others will call for the withdrawal of Canadian troops from Afghanistan. They will argue the presence of our soldiers doing war in a Muslim nation is behind the uncovered plot.

According to police and intelligence sources, though, the alleged terror cell began its scheming and planning more than two years ago, when our only presence in Afghanistan was a 700-strong contingent patrolling the relatively peaceful capital, Kabul, as part of a NATO peacekeeping force. In other words, this cell allegedly began scoping out Canadian targets, training and assembling its materials long before our current combat-oriented mission in Kandahar against al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

Does our current mission upset jihadis? Undoubtedly. But they allegedly were mad enough to blow up innocent Canadian civilians even before our mission changed. If our troops were not at war with Muslims, something else would be the provocation. It doesn't take much...'

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Some of those arrested had contact with people in the States that have been picked up on terrorism charges as well as those being watched in Britian, Bosnia, etc.


----------



## TMM

Strategic said:
			
		

> I could be wrong but the fertilizer found is used in farming and controlled by the gov.



Believe it or not, it is not restricted but plans were in place to do so:

http://www.cfi.ca/files/press_releases/on_guard_05-06-16_FINAL.PDF

I guess the days of making fireworks in the darkroom are over.


----------



## vonGarvin

Am I the only one worried about all the information warfare that has been so effectively waged on us over the past few days?  Where is the counter attack?
Now, not all moslems are terrorists: that goes without saying.  But, the day after they find all sorts of "stuff" and arrest some 17 people (who just happen to be moslem), the headlines aren't about the plot, likely targets, how it was brought down, etc, but the worry that moslems might (MIGHT!!!) feel "disenfranchised" by this whole bugga-boo.  To me, that is total ignorance.  As Blatchford wrote (I think it was her), we are ignoring the elephant.
Here is an analogy.  Suppose there is a serial rapist attacking Montreal.  How many women are on that list of suspects?  None.  Why?  Because women (generally) don't rape or collude to rape (some famous examples notwithstanding).  Still, the statement that "men rape" is a false one, because it implies that all men rape.  More accurately, perhaps the statement would be "all rapists are men, but not all men are rapists".  So, when looking for a rapist, focus on men, knowing that ONE of them is your target.
So, moslem extremists are plotting against us.  Do I look for them in Synagogues?  Churches?  Not likely.  Mosques?  Hmmmm....
Anyway, my point is this: every time one of these fella's opens his cake hole and suggests that so and so is anti violent, wouldn't hurt a flea, etc, I say that we ask Mr. So and So what his opinion is on Canadian Troops in Afghanistan (offensive action).  Ask him if he has any word of thanks and/or condolences for the families of Capt Goddard (the most recent KIA in Afghanistan).

Just my thoughts.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

"While law enforcement was celebrating thwarting a massive, systematic attack on several southern Ontario targets, these kinds of questions, if not allegations, were being thrown around by lawyers all weekend -- many of whom were complaining about an overzealous Canadian intelligence world. "

And so begins the inevitable donkey show.  All of the a-hole forces of civil liberties will rise to assist these idiots, fund raisers for legal defence will be held, and hippies everywhere will have an opportunity to scream at The Man because that is what they do.  Meanwhile, somewhere an evil ******* chuckles and remarks about a snake eating its own tail.  
Honest to god, I really believe that the arsehole socialists in this country will not be satisfied until there is a smouldering crater and a death toll.  The fact is that there will be a horde of information that will not go public due to the sensitive intelligence nature of it.  Some people can't stand not knowing (likely the ones who as kids would go into a genuine fit when you would tell them "I've got a secret, I've got a secret").  
As for the lack of previous contacts of the suspects, whoever made the observation that they are supposed to lay low was bang on.  Another excerpt from my Al-Qaeda training manual:

Necessary Qualifications fro the Organization’s members
8. Patience
[The member] should have plenty of patience for [enduring] afflictions if he is overcome by the enemies.  He should not abandon this great path and sell himself and his religion to the enemies for his freedom. He should be patient in performing the work, even if it lasts a long time.

as well:

Measures that Should be Taken by the Undercover Member:
In addition to the above measures, the member should ...
1. Not reveal his true name to the Organization’s members who are working with him, nor to the [Islamic] Da’wa [Call].
2. Have a general appearance that does not indicate Islamic orientation (beard, toothpick, book, [long] shirt, small Koran).
5. Carry falsified personal documents and know all the information they contain.
7. Have complete and accurate knowledge of the security status related to those around him in his place of work and residence, so that no danger or harm would catch him unaware.
8. Maintain his family and neighborhood relationships and should not show any changes towards them so that they would not attempt to bring him back [from the Organization] for security reasons.
10. Not speak loudly.
11. Not get involved in advocating good and denouncing evil in order not to attract attention to himself.
12. Break the daily routine, especially when performing an undercover mission. For example, changing the departure and return routes, arrival and departure times, and the store where he buys his goods.
13. Not causing any trouble in the neighborhood where he lives or at the place of work.
20. Not undergo a sudden change in his daily routine or any relationships that precede his Jihad involvement. For example, there should not be an obvious change in his habits of conversing, movement, presence, or disappearance. Likewise, he should not be hasty to sever his previous relationships.
Important Note:
* Married brothers should observe the following:
1. Not talking with their wives about Jihad work.
2. The members with security risks should not travel with their wives. A wife with an Islamic appearance (veil) attracts attention.

The above is largely unclassified now, but I took out some of the steps that might not have been as obvious as others.  As you can see, they are trained to be patient and blend with their surroundings.  

As for lawyers, they are generally a bunch of self serving whores, who will say or do anything for attention and/or money.  I don't really blame them, they have dedicated their lives to ensuring people don't have to be responsible for their actions.  If nothing else, it's just a job, and they are obliged to do the best they can.  It will be the judges that make or break this one.  I'm not buying the "entrapment" angle (an American term, BTW) and if they were working on this one for that long, they wouldn't have moved in unless they had a pretty solid case.  Plus, the plan must have been pretty imminently dangerous, otherwise they probably would have waited out for a bit in order to round up even more people.  Once something like this hits, the participants scurry like roaches into the shadows.  
Tamouh, as for your comments (so much happens over night)
I think that perhaps there is a cultural difference between yours and my interpretations of what mature and brainwashing mean.  I'm not going to beat it to death, as most of the other posts to those ends summed up how most of us feel.  I believe your heart is in the right place, however.  I am very curious, however, why there is no Islamic community leadership that can organize country wide demonstrations of support for Canada, and protests against terrorism.  Surely the nuances of the various sects are not so huge that something couldn't be put together?  I reminds me of when I was still living in Toronto, and I had a black partner while working security.  He took more crap than I did, and was constantly called "Uncle Tom" or "Oreo".  The Oreo one always struck me.  White on the inside?  So the black youths were saying to him that by being law abiding he was being white.  So what would the opposite inference be?  Is this the case with Arabs in general in your experience?  Are you branded some sort of sell out or race traitor if you make any sort of statements of support to Canada and it's largely Christian institutions?  I'm not trying to be a dick or anything.  As you appear to probably have a better track on what really goes on behind the scenes, I would be interested in your thoughts.  

Bilton, seriously, what is your deal?  Are you recovering from a stroke or something?   ???


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote from Zipperhead Cop,

_As for lawyers, they are generally a bunch of self serving whores, who will say or do anything for attention and/or money.  I don't really blame them, they have dedicated their lives to ensuring people don't have to be responsible for their actions.  If nothing else, it's just a job, and they are obliged to do the best they can._

Now this is a little too much over the top........like ANY trade, there are good and bad.
I blame the system more than anything,....I doubt very few started law school thinking " Just think of all the dirtbags I can help walk the street".
Methinks a clarification/apology would be warrented to those who wish to serve the greater good also.....


----------



## MarkOttawa

Excerpts from a couple of good columns:

1) Jim Travers, "National interest must come first: Canada neglects to reinforce essential values in its pursuit of multicultural tolerance";
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1149545411381&call_pageid=970599119419

'...this is a domestic problem with offshore roots, not just a foreign problem manifesting itself at home. If the allegations are true and the plot more than a fantasy that became a conspiracy, we are under attack from ourselves...

In pursuing multicultural tolerance, Canada has been negligent in reinforcing essential, common-denominator values. Most of those are self-evident: human rights, the rule of law and the understanding that one person's freedom ends where another's begins.

These are all-defining and remain easily powerful enough to make this country a magnet. But what's slipped through cracks is that being Canadian requires a commitment passed from generation to generation.

Stripped bare of rhetoric and religion, politics and ethnicity, citizenship requires putting the national interest first.

To their shame and often for partisan advantage, politicians have been blinking when influential communities and interest groups fall below the threshold of what it means to hold a share in a nation of 33 million. As this weekend's events compellingly argue, that blindness is not sustainable.

In celebrating its differences, Canada must also protect the values that map the perimeter of its shared and evolving space. Along with all levels of government, every community leader, group and ethnic fragment shares responsibility for deciding what is acceptable and exposing what won't be tolerated.

Canada chose long ago to be the world in one place and, happily, that choice is not reversible. But the tougher decisions remain ahead for a country that must forge cohesion as immigration continues to rise and becomes even more diverse.'

2) Rondi Adamson, "Moderate Western Muslims, speak up! Do we really need social research to condemn Islamofacism?";
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0606/p09s01-coop.html

'    Aly Hindy, a high-profile imam in the Toronto suburb of Scarborough, called the arrests "an attack on the Muslim community." He went on to say that, "We are abusing our boys for the sake of pleasing George Bush." Rather than speaking out against extremism, or entertaining the notion that perhaps his country's security forces know what they're doing, Hindy called the charges against the men "home-grown baloney."

    Even moderate Canadian Muslim groups, willing to show faith in Canada's justice system, are mitigating their statements. The Canadian Islamic Congress (CIC) praised the work of Canada's spy agency and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. But then they scolded the Canadian government for not funding "academic research to diagnose this serious social problem and provide scientific solutions to it." A scientific solution to Islamofascism? Bring it on.

    The group also chastised Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper for portraying events "as a battle between 'us' and 'them.' " Following the arrests, Mr. Harper stated that "we are a target because of who we are. And how we live." One wonders - do the members of the CIC not consider themselves part of the "we" Harper referred to, when he spoke of Canadians? If so, that is indeed revealing.

    The Muslim Canadian Congress fared only a tad bit better. They praised the police, and expressed dismay that members of their community might be guilty as charged. And then they managed to blame President Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, and even Harper for the fact that any such terror cells might exist. So far, only the Council on American-Islamic Relations Canada (CAIR-CAN) has managed to issue a condemnation of terror, and praise of the police, without tacking on a "but," a "Bush," or a "Canadian troops in Afghanistan."

    I was happily surprised at CAIR-CAN's press release. I shouldn't have been. We must expect that Western Muslims will wholeheartedly condemn Islamofascism, without any conditions placed on that condemnation. Without that, we may reach a point of divisions too deep to mend.'

Sorry about length, but think the points are important.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Wizard of OZ

We do realize that these people will be tried in Canada right?  

Therefore even if they are convicted they will likely get 5-10 yrs in some estate style prison for their "own safety".

Wes

In some ways I can understand your concerns.  Yes it is very rare that leaders of Muslim communities de-nounce the activities of those who are terrorists.  But you have to be careful in your approach to solving the problem. 

Imagine those that live in London UK having one of the largest extremist populations outside of the Middle East.

Yes it is sad that we can not all get along, but this will continue to happen until the different Islamic secs take on these Extremist secs on their own.  The more the West gets involved the more numbers the extremist get.


----------



## Redbeaver

I'm going to have to disagree with those saying that they won't recieve proper punishment.  If convicted under the anti-terrorism act these guys are facing some major sentences.

From: http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/2001/doc_27787.html

On sentencing:


> The Criminal Code would also stipulate that the sentences imposed for each of these offences are to be served consecutively to any other sentence imposed relating to the same activity or event.



On early parole:


> The offender would also be ineligible for parole for half of the sentence imposed unless the accused can demonstrate that it is not in the public interest. This is similar to the approach taken in Bill C-24, the Government of Canada's organized crime bill, and reflects the serious nature of these crimes.


----------



## Haggis

Redbeaver said:
			
		

> I'm going to have to disagree with those saying that they won't recieve proper punishment.  If convicted under the anti-terrorism act these guys are facing some major sentences.
> 
> From: http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/2001/doc_27787.html



These are the same judges who sentence people under s85 of the Criminal Code for Using a Firearm in the Commission of an Offence?

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-46/267161.html#Section-85

Riiiighht!  I feel safer already.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Once again where are you going to send them if they were born here?
I still wonder how these terrorism laws will effect the young offenders.


----------



## George Wallace

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Once again where are you going to send them if they were born here?
> I still wonder how these terrorism laws will effect the young offenders.



Well, like the former members of the FLQ, who felt that they had no allegiance to Canada in 1970, we can send them to Cuba also.

If Canada is not good enough for them, then we should send them somewhere else.  If they think that Islam is the way that they want to follow, and not 'Western Ways', let's send them to somewhere where they will experience what they desire in life.  Perhaps a HALO drop over Saudi Arabia w/o chutes.   ;D


----------



## geo

if you are involved / participate in a terrorist act then you should not be trialed under the young offender's act. You want to play with the big boys..... 

If they are "born & bred" in Canada & are involved in a revolt / insurection, then I would offer to ship em to a couple of lovely places "Alert" or "Grise Fjord" come to mind...way, way up north.... there are no fences and if they want to attempt an escape.... let em try.


----------



## geo

moving from any totalitarian country to a "free form" democracy will require HUGE adaptation but, when you get down to it.... the people who have immigrated here WANT CHANGE, they want what we have and don't want to put up with the abuse and BS that has existed back at home.

To come here and throw on the Burqua once again..... WTF!


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Folks, I have not a racist bone in my body,....assholes come from every way, shape and form. However the ONE BIG problem I have with the whole situation is this,

I am a white male,....if 17 young white males had been arrested for plotting a terrorist attack, I, and everyone I know, would be cheering the arrests.

It seems though, that this sentiment is not reciprocated by the various Muslim groups.........and THAT is very, very wrong.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

...and now for a change of pace.

According to Global News, 2 dozen members of the JTF-2 were on standby in coptors just minutes away from the alledged training camp......


----------



## Redbeaver

I agree that there should be vigilance inside the Muslim communities and extremist clerics that lecture that the murder of non believers is justified need to be routed out.  But I don't think that Muslim communities across Canada should be burdened with having to prove that they don't endorse terrorism.  For most the only connection to the accused is that they share the same religion.  

Some are already speaking out: http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=1acfdf50-3657-4286-acbf-ae2b5de4cad0

Many Toronto area community leaders were involved in the investigation but there has been no mention yet of how much they cooperated.  I guess that will come out during the trial.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Nice editorial in the Toronto Sun today

Tue, June 6, 2006
   Long War Ahead 
Some Apologists Contend Exclusion is Behind Terrorism

By Paul Jackson

You should never beat a woman, not even with a flower
-- Muhammad 

Yes, I am somewhat well-versed in the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, perhaps more well-versed than adherents of the Islamic extremist world terrorist movement so determined to destroy western democracies. 
Certainly more well-versed than the terrorist suspects in Ontario who, if the charges are true, took advantage of our nation's freedoms and prosperity only to then allegedly plot to spread destruction and death throughout our society. 
The western democratic world is so obviously pitted in an all-out defensive position against radical Islamic tyrants aiming to undermine us, it's hard to ponder how any rational individual would ignore the threat. 

But some still do. We're urged to be calm, not to throw stones. 
We're even urged to make amends for perceived sins of the past -- to confess the crusades were really an assault against Islam, rather than a legitimate defence as extremist Islamic forces were at the very doors of Vienna. 
Now they are in our midst. 

I note the quote above by Muhammad to show how perverted the course of Islam has become, somewhat like Christianity in the guise of some money-hungry TV evangelists. 
If Muhammad so abhorred violence a woman should not be beaten even with a flower, a contention in which I believe fully, then why are women in Muslim nations forbidden rights their sisters in other countries hold without question. 

It's a philosophy driven mad by some, just as Germany under Adolf Hitler's Nazis and the Soviet Union under Josef Stalin's Communists. 
There's talk about a "clash of cultures," meaning the Muslim world either can't deal with the technological changes stemming from the rest of the world, or is fighting against the immorality of the rest of the world. 
Well, no one -- not even the Hitlers and the Stalins, or the Mao Zedong or Pol Pots -- have been able to halt mankind's progress, no matter what forces they tried to muster. 

So one doubts the likes of Osama bin Laden and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will eventually fare much better. As long, that is, as we hold firm. 
On the question of immorality, I tend to agree, having turned my back on Hollywood some time ago, but when basic human rights are denied to hundreds of millions in Muslim nations, there is a question there of immorality, too. 
Some apologists -- and there are still a few of those lingering around -- contend 'home-grown' terrorists are that way because they have been excluded from mainstream society. 

So who excluded them? 
It's been my experience, and of my many friends of divergent creeds and cultures, mainstream society is more than willing to accept anyone who wants to join it. 
No one needs to be excluded, unless they want to be. 

It's a wide-open age in which we live. 
Except if one is so intolerant they want to impose their totalitarian views on others. 
In our mainstream society one can pick and choose just how to live: Anytime I see a photograph of the likes of Britney Spears in a newspaper, I turn the page. When I hear rap music in a bar, I walk out. 

When I see New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton on TV, I switch channels.  
Western democracy is very exhilarating, unless the thought of freedom scares you. 
Freedom -- and fairness -- scare some individuals, usually individuals with inferiority complexes who often turn into bullies as a defensive mechanism. 

So what can we do to protect western democracy? 

In Canada, we already started when we elected Stephen Harper prime minister, and when Harper made Stockwell Day public safety minister. 
None of the fawning attitudes of former -- and failed -- prime ministers Jean Chretien or Paul Martin now. 
In the U.S., President George W. Bush is a beacon of hope and courage compared to the likes of Al Gore or John Kerry. 
In Britain, Tony Blair is a man of steel, as is Australia's John Howard. Angela Merkel is a far more stalwart leader in Germany than was Gerhard Schroeder. 
What we must remember is it took us 12 years -- from 1933 to 1945 to beat Germanic Nazism, and and some 74 years -- from 1917 to 1991 -- to whip Soviet Communism. 

This is going to be a long war and we must not waver


----------



## tomahawk6

Melanie Phillips wrote an excellant book called Londonistan recently published in the US. She seem's to have predicted this chain of events.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/archives/001734.html


----------



## MarkOttawa

tamouh: 





> the 'founding fathers'



were American.  In Canada we have the "Fathers of Confederation".
http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/aia/default.asp?Language=E&Page=federation&Sub=WhoWeretheFathersofConfe

The result of the Oes perhaps?

It seems to me you know your enemy but not your own country.  Quelle surprise.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## tomahawk6

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22443

Melanie Phillips discussing her book in an interview. She makes a very good case backed up by current events.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Well on the lighter side one of the lawyers said his client as accused of planning of storming the CBC and taking it over.


----------



## vonGarvin

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Folks, I have not a racist bone in my body,....assholes come from every way, shape and form. However the ONE BIG problem I have with the whole situation is this,
> 
> I am a white male,....if 17 young white males had been arrested for plotting a terrorist attack, I, and everyone I know, would be cheering the arrests.
> 
> It seems though, that this sentiment is not reciprocated by the various Muslim groups.........and THAT is very, very wrong.


Just as when McVeigh was arrested, I cheered.  

+1


----------



## The Bread Guy

Interesting take by at least one academic (as usual,  shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

Don't glamorize plotters as 'terrorists,' prof says, but as *'misguided cowards'*
CanWest News Service, June 07, 2006 

''The men arrested in connection with the alleged terrorist plot shouldn't be seen as Muslim terrorists but as idiotic thugs if the charges against them are true, says a University of Toronto psychology professor. *"To call them Muslim terrorists, in my estimation, is a mistake. They're misguided totalitarian cowards and they're out for revenge,"* said Jordan Peterson, who studies the psychology of terrorism. "It's dumb and cowardly and *they're in the same league ... as bone-headed skinheads in Eastern Germany.*" Mr. Peterson, an associate professor in U of T's psychology department, said calling such people terrorists only romanticizes them and gives them the notoriety they are seeking for their cause. *"People like to think that those who are plotting against us are smart, because no one likes to think our society can be attacked by idiots,"* he said. ''


----------



## The Bread Guy

Here we go - the "crazed ex-militaman" card....

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act - http://www.cb-cda.gc.ca/info/act-e.html#rid-33409

http://www.640toronto.com/news/metro.cfm?cat=7428109912&rem=39853&red=80110923aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=metro.cfm
  
Terror Suspect is Former Canadian Military Reservist
640Toronto.com, Jun, 07 2006 - 4:10 AM

''TORONTO - A new report suggests one of the 17 men charged in this weekend's anti-terrorism raids served as a Canadian military reservist for four years.

Yesterday, the lawyer for Steven Chand shocked reporters outside a Brampton courtroom when he revealed his client was suspected of plotting to behead the Prime Minister. And now, there's word the 25-year-old is a former member of the Royal Regiment of Canada, a reservist unit that meets in Toronto.

A military spokesperson confirms Chand once served in the military, but says he was absent for a lot of the time he spent in uniform. Chand would likely have received weapons training.''


----------



## GAP

This problem originates in the Muslim community, why is that community not speaking up about it. 
Oh sure, we hear the occasional spokesman gently reminding us that not all muslims are like this, but this process begs the question, "If you are not like this, why are you allowing it by ignoring it?"
 Passive acceptance works as well as active acceptance, and if you get painted by the same brush so be it. 
Muslims need to clean up their own back yard loudly and clearly, only then they will have credibility.

 In the meantime, we, the general population of Canada, of whatever race, color or religion, will continue to racial profile those that are perpetuating the planning and activation of terrorist acts. 

It's actually quite simple. If muslims are supporting or participating in terrorist acts, then DON'T tell us not to look at you!!


----------



## MarkOttawa

An eye-opening article (in the Star!) by Tarek Fatah, Communications Director of the Muslim Canadian Congress, "Keep politics out of our mosques: Muslims cannot sit still while a fascist cult of Islamic supremacy takes over places of worship".
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149630611454&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

Excerpts:

'Three years ago when Kuwaiti Islamist scholar Tareq Al Suwaidian told a Toronto crowd that "Western civilization is rotten from within and nearing collapse ... it (the West) will continue to grow until an outside force hits it and you will be surprised at how quickly it falls," he was lustily cheered by the nearly 2,000 young Muslim men and women.

I was deeply offended by the hostile remark, but the thunderous approving applause of the young audience simply stunned me. All I could do was muster the courage and stage a polite walkout.

That day I resolved to fight this hostility toward the modern nation-state and Western civilization that was engulfing a section of Canadian Muslim youth; one that was being fanned by the leadership of the traditional Muslim organizations and Islamic radicals who took inspiration from the ruling elites of Iran and Saudi Arabia...

While the overwhelming majority of Canada's Muslims have been stunned by this development, few can honestly deny that they had seen this coming.

For years, some of us have been incessantly talking and writing about the growth of this extremist phenomenon, this contempt for secular parliamentary democracy and non-stop berating of Muslim youth who become "Canadian" and warnings to them that they will be punished in the hereafter if they do not adhere to the barren version of Islam where joy itself is a sin.

In the last five years, we Muslims have had more than our share of terrorism done in the name of our faith. Whether it is terrorist attacks in India or the hundreds of simultaneous bombings in 300 cities of Bangladesh; whether it is massacres of Muslims by Muslims in Iraq or the genocide of Muslims by Muslims in Darfur, the traditional leadership of the Muslim community responds repeatedly in a similar manner: abject denial...

There is not a single mosque in Canada where Muslims with opposing views can debate anything political, social or theological. The doors of debate are shut by the cement of orthodoxy. Only doublespeak and hypocrisy are allowed to flourish. As long as Muslims can find someone else to blame for our ills, the problem is seen as resolved.

I say, enough is enough. Muslims cannot go on behaving as if everything is normal. We cannot sit still while a fascist cult of Islamic supremacy takes over our mosques...'

Good on him and good on the Star.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Anyone see the CBC's Enemy Within.  They went to Amsterdam and Britain and interviewed both sides.  The Muslims were portrayed as being segrigated (by their own doing and their neighbours) and showed no attempt to become part of the nation they now lived in.  They also highlighted the response by the Danes and Brits.  It seems that the Danes have institued a policy of intergration whereby the muslims must right a test, speak the local dialect.  If any muslim commits a crime as small as shop lifting they are immediately deported.  Basically the premise was "Is Multi-culturalism Dead".


----------



## probum non poenitet

On a slightly different tangent, doesn't it seem odd that these fellows are being tried as regular criminals?
I keep replaying Bush's statement after 9-11 that these "Were not acts of terror, but acts of war."

The facts are not all in, but destruction of Parliament, murder of the PM, firing into crowds at random, these are acts of insurrection rather than crimes.

Shouldn't our justice system adapt? Shouldn't there be new laws written and new prisons built. I'm no expert, but do we need a Northern Ireland-style H-Block, a U.S.-style Gitmo, or whatever it is the Israelis use?

These young fellows seem thrilled by the idea of martyrdom, so the death penalty is just a sick enticement. 
12 years of the Karla Homolka spa treatment won't be much of a message either.

All hysteria aside, what about military prison? Or a new detention facility at C.F.S. Alert?
After all, the military does become involved in insurrections. Ugly fact, but it chose us, not the other way around.

I think if you were 17 and new your 'brothers' were sitting in a hole in the Arctic for the next 60 years of their miserable lives, it might sap some of the glamour out of martyrdom.

I don't give a rat's ass for the rights of these fellows. Stealing a car or robbing a 7-11 is bad enough, but what they intended decries all defence of "he was young" or "alienation" or any of that crap. They wanted to launch a mini-Holocaust.

Any of you more reasoned minds out there have a comment on that?


----------



## Wizard of OZ

probum non poenitet said:
			
		

> On a slightly different tangent, doesn't it seem odd that these fellows are being tried as regular criminals?
> I keep replaying Bush's statement after 9-11 that these "Were not acts of terror, but acts of war."
> 
> The facts are not all in, but destruction of Parliament, murder of the PM, firing into crowds at random, these are acts of insurrection rather than crimes.
> 
> Shouldn't our justice system adapt? Shouldn't there be new laws written and new prisons built. I'm no expert, but do we need a Northern Ireland-style H-Block, a U.S.-style Gitmo, or whatever it is the Israelis use?
> 
> These young fellows seem thrilled by the idea of martyrdom, so the death penalty is just a sick enticement.
> 12 years of the Karla Homolka spa treatment won't be much of a message either.
> 
> All hysteria aside, what about military prison? Or a new detention facility at C.F.S. Alert?
> After all, the military does become involved in insurrections. Ugly fact, but it chose us, not the other way around.
> 
> I think if you were 17 and new your 'brothers' were sitting in a hole in the Arctic for the next 60 years of their miserable lives, it might sap some of the glamour out of martyrdom.
> 
> I don't give a rat's *** for the rights of these fellows. Stealing a car or robbing a 7-11 is bad enough, but what they intended decries all defence of "he was young" or "alienation" or any of that crap. They wanted to launch a mini-Holocaust.
> 
> Any of you more reasoned minds out there have a comment on that?



As far the prisons are concerned HANS island has been sugested.

I don't think using the CFSDB is what would help the situation,  the DB is more for re-hablitaion of soilders and re-installing discipline then it would be for detention of terroist.

Your right though those seem to more acts of war then actual crimes.  But then we need the government to step up and make the laws that would apply properly.(time to dust off the CC of C and revamp some of the older Part II offences against Public order sections)


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Wiz I'm not sure anymore.  In Europe at least it seems like conquest through Muslim population saturation.  In time the Muslims outnumber most other ethnicities, get into gov't democratically and then begin to change the country.  Conspiracy of a scared white male.  Possibly.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I think their endstate is Afghanistan pre 9/11.  Once this has happened then there life is dedicated to maintaining this ideal.


----------



## MarkOttawa

TMM:
http://www.tvo.org/TVOsites/WebObjects/TvoMicrosite.woa/wo/ebAdWshCA4Mb2WYVxnxog0/2.0.0.79.45.26.1.13.1.1

"Also tonight, reaction from the Muslim community with Irshad Manji, author of The Trouble with Islam Today; Tarek Fatah of the Muslim Canadian Congress; Ali Hindy from Scarborough's Salaheddin Islamic Centre; and Zafar Bangash, director of the Institute of Contemporary Islamic Thought."

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## dapaterson

GAP said:
			
		

> This problem originates in the Muslim community, why is that community not speaking up about it.



A bit of research would show that there are significant voices in the Muslim community supporting the government's actions:

http://www.caircan.ca/itn_more.php?id=2506_0_2_0_C'



> *Canadian Muslims relieved alleged terrorist attack averted *
> Saturday, June 03, 2006 3:45 pm
> 
> For immediate release
> 
> CAIR-CAN joins all Canadians in expressing relief that a potential terrorist attack in Toronto has been averted and applauds the efforts by Canadian security forces to combat terrorism and other criminal activities. CAIR-CAN stands with all Canadians in the pursuit of safety and security for the residents of our country.
> 
> “As Canadian Muslims we unequivocally condemn terrorism in all of its forms. Canada is our home and we are deeply concerned about the safety of our country,” says Karl Nickner, CAIR-CAN’s Executive Director.
> 
> Security officials held a news conference Saturday morning to announce the arrest of an alleged terrorist cell in Toronto. According to reports, about 17 individuals, most of whom are Canadian citizens, have been arrested for allegedly plotting a terrorist attack.
> 
> “We stand behind our security forces and the Canadian government in their desire to protect Canada. We also have confidence that our justice system will accord these individuals transparency, due process and the presumption of innocence,” he added.
> 
> CAIR-CAN is also asking Canadian Muslims to cooperate with Canadian security agencies in order to combat any terrorist or other criminal activities.
> 
> To read the national statement by 120 Canadian Imams condemning terrorism and extremism, released last summer, please see: http://www.caircan.ca/ps_more.php?id=2004_0_6_0_M


----------



## Bobert

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Anyone see the CBC's Enemy Within.  They went to Amsterdam and Britain and interviewed both sides.  The Muslims were portrayed as being segrigated (by their own doing and their neighbours) and showed no attempt to become part of the nation they now lived in.  They also highlighted the response by the Danes and Brits.  It seems that the Danes have institued a policy of intergration whereby the muslims must right a test, speak the local dialect.  If any muslim commits a crime as small as shop lifting they are immediately deported.  Basically the premise was "Is Multi-culturalism Dead".



I saw that as well. I can't really say if what they are doing in the Neatherlands is worng. One thing I see why it is nessacry there as a result of the fact that they are a very liberal country and they want to defend thoise freedoms. However, haveing said that this would be right for sure in Canada. You have to look at our history as proof that multi-culturalism is nessacary. After all the British and the French were not the first people here. The aboriginals were. We have had many differnet groups of people since around the turn of the century. For example when the Pacific Railway had to be built we imported Chineese labour and forced them to live in horrible condition. Multi-culturalism is part of what we call Candian values and culture. We can't say that if you don't like bacon or hockey then you are not Canadian.


----------



## Wizard of OZ

We can't say that if you don't like bacon or hockey then you are not Canadian.  

Sure we can, we just can't mean it.

Yes Canada is Multicultural.  But we did have internment camps for the Japanese in the Second world war a whole race put into camps because they could not be trusted.  Is this the direction that we are leaning in again?  I would hope not.  I think we (the public) need reassurance from the Muslim community that they themselves do not support this and not just on web pages but on nation TV come out and say it don't let the ones that defend these wacko's hog the light.  You wonder why you get little support or understanding on your culture or religion is because you only let those who don't speak for the majority talk. Or am a fool for thinking other wise?

MOO


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

jb9293 said:
			
		

> If you want to see how delusional some people are just click on this link.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/yourspace/CSIS_terrorists.html
> 
> You can read letters people sent to the CBC about the comments Jack Hooper made before the Senate defence committee. You can read such gems as:
> 
> and:
> 
> Got enough proof now?  :



Good grief.  I read all the comments, the last one is from someone named Chris Brobeck...an 'artisit' from Halifax...check out his website, you can obviously see why he has so much knowledge and insight into international and domestic security/terrorist activities and the like... :

http://vans.ednet.ns.ca/artist pages/cbrobeck.html

I bet all these people tell pilots how to fly planes too...christ. :

Clueless.  Like a herd of cattle waiting at the gate...MOOOOOOOOOO


----------



## MarkOttawa

The key to the profile for finding "homegrown" terrorists, courtesy AP:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1101AP_Canada_The_Suspects.html

"Most suspects in Canada plot from suburbs"

One supposes newly-immigrated potential terrorists, on the other hand, tend to congregate downtown.

Mark
Ottawa


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

On a side note...

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060608/funding_terror_060608

U.K. man lived alongside Canadian suspects: report 
CTV.ca News Staff

The 21-year-old who was arrested at Manchester airport had spent time in Ontario, unbeknownst to his family, and even lived alongside some of the terror suspects who were arrested in a massive raid in Ontario last weekend, according to reports from the British media.

Abed Khan, and a 16-year-old youth who was arrested soon after, are both linked to the suspected terrorists in Ontario, according to the BBC and the Times of London newspaper. Both quoted unnamed security officials who made the connection. 

The Times reported that Khan spent much of the past year in Ontario. 

His uncle, Ismail Khan, however, told The Canadian Press his family has no relations in Canada and he has no knowledge of his nephew ever having visited the country, much less having lived there.

He did confirm his nephew was arrested on Tuesday after arriving at Manchester airport aboard a flight from Pakistan where he had been visiting his wife. 

Police also searched several homes in Bradford, where the 21-year-old was from, in connection with his arrest.

"We're shocked," Khan told CP on Thursday from his home in Bradford, England.

He dismissed the notion that his nephew was linked to an alleged terror plot.

"He's a good lad, and I don't believe all the information about him or fabrication that they've put on him. It's all wrong."

Khan said police knocked down the door of his mother's home in Bradford, but found nothing when they searched the house.

On Wednesday a 16-year-old youth was taken into police custody, and police searched homes in Dewsbury, about 290 kilometres north of London. 

Mohammad Sidique Khan, the leader of the July 7, 2005, bombings in London is also from Dewsbury. 

Neither British police nor the RCMP has confirmed a connection exists between the Canadian and British arrests.

Terror legislation expected

Meanwhile, the federal government in Canada plans to introduce legislation this fall that is intended to help close off the cash pipeline to terrorists.

According to a report in Thursday's The Globe and Mail, the new legislation will incorporate some aspects of a consultation paper on the same topic that was put together last year.

One aspect of the legislation will give investigators the ability to closely monitor potentially suspicious business deals within Canada's diamond industry.

The document was drafted last year under the previous Liberal government, when Ralph Goodale held the post of finance minister.

"Police investigations indicate that organized crime groups are taking a growing interest in Canada's expanding diamond industry," said the white paper, as reported by the Globe.

"Unless preventative measures are taken, law enforcement authorities predict that the incidence of money laundering and terrorist activity financing in the sector will significantly increase in the future with the domestic expansion of the precious metals and jewelry industries." 

The document suggests gems and precious metals are used almost as a form of international currency among terrorists because they are of high value, are easy to conceal, and are often difficult to trace.

Just last weekend, the RCMP arrested 17 people on terrorism charges, claiming the operation foiled a bomb plot against targets in southern Ontario.

And word of the new legislation comes just ahead of Finance Minister Jim Flaherty's trip to St. Petersburg, Russia this weekend, where he will meet with other finance officials from the Group of Eight industrialized nations.

One of the topics up for discussion is the financing of terrorism.

Money laundering legislation was introduced by the federal government in 2000, and was later updated after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. 

A source told the Globe the government intends to move a Proceeds of Crime, Terrorists Financing Act in the fall, but no final decisions have been made on what the legislation will include.

If the legislation goes through, Canada will be following the lead of the Financial Action Task Force, an international organization that sets standards to combat money laundering.

Flaherty is next in line to take over the rotating presidency of FATF.

According to the Globe, the consultation paper looks at setting new reporting requirements for the diamond and precious metals industries -- similar to casinos, real estate agents and financial institutions that are required to report transactions of more than $10,000.

The paper also recommends closer scrutiny of money transfers, and changes to the Income Tax Act to allow information to be shared more easily. 

Terrorists planned abductions

Meanwhile, reports say that court documents have revealed the alleged terrorists arrested last weekend had plans to take federal politicians hostage, then demand the withdrawal of Canadian troops from Afghanistan and the release of some prisoners in Canada. 

The group also intended to decapitate hostages, according to the documents, but later became more focused on detonating bombs in several Toronto locations. 

The documents also reveal one of the accused, Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19, enrolled in an aviation course at Toronto's Centennial College, though he did not take the course. 

The revelations mark the first indication the men may have planned an attack from the air. 

Other details of the group's alleged plans are included in the document, including some of the methods allegedly used to acquire three tons of ammonium nitrate -- fertilizer that can be used to build bombs.


----------



## George Wallace

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060608/funding_terror_060608
> 
> U.K. man lived alongside Canadian suspects: report
> CTV.ca News Staff
> 
> The 21-year-old who was arrested at Manchester airport had spent time in Ontario, unbeknownst to his family, and even lived alongside some of the terror suspects who were arrested in a massive raid in Ontario last weekend, according to reports from the British media.
> 
> Abed Khan, and a 16-year-old youth who was arrested soon after, are both linked to the suspected terrorists in Ontario, according to the BBC and the Times of London newspaper. Both quoted unnamed security officials who made the connection.
> 
> The Times reported that Khan spent much of the past year in Ontario.
> 
> His uncle, Ismail Khan, however, told The Canadian Press his family has no relations in Canada and he has no knowledge of his nephew ever having visited the country, much less having lived there.
> 
> He did confirm his nephew was arrested on Tuesday after arriving at Manchester airport aboard a flight from Pakistan where he had been visiting his wife.



That should be a relatively easy matter to prove one way or another, by confirming his Passport.  I am sure that it can be tracked.  Either he was in Canada for a period of time or he was in Pakistan for a period of time.  

On another tangent.....being in Pakistan will probably raise alarm flags on his file anyway.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Staff
> 
> His uncle, Ismail Khan, however, told The Canadian Press his family has no relations in Canada and he has *no knowledge * of his nephew ever having visited the country, much less having lived there.
> 
> He did confirm his nephew was arrested on Tuesday after arriving at Manchester airport aboard a flight from Pakistan where he had been visiting his wife.
> 
> "*We're shocked*," Khan told CP on Thursday from his home in Bradford, England.
> 
> *He dismissed the notion that his nephew was linked to an alleged terror plot.
> 
> "He's a good lad, and I don't believe all the information about him or fabrication  that they've put on him. It's all wrong*."



Gee now here's a surprise...its all fabricated...he has no knowledge...yadda yadda yadda...I think its called the "standard party line" at this point in time...and close to the words of the familiies of the 17 terrorists arrested in the last week in Canada.

"The boy who cried wolf" comes to mind...


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Now this is a little too much over the top........like ANY trade, there are good and bad.
> I blame the system more than anything,....I doubt very few started law school thinking " Just think of all the dirtbags I can help walk the street".
> Methinks a clarification/apology would be warrented to those who wish to serve the greater good also.....



I appologize for anyones perception of impropriety on my part.  I will endeavor to avoid this in the future.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149803410365&call_pageid=968332188774&col=968350116467
Help us weed out extremists, Muslims tell governments
Politicians support idea of summit 
Jun. 9, 2006. 01:00 AM
BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
OTTAWA BUREAU

OTTAWA—Canada's Muslim community is asking for high-level political assistance, including the help of Prime Minister Stephen Harper, to weed out extremists who are preying on young people.

"We're not here to say we don't have an issue. Of course we have an issue, but we can't deal with it ourselves," social worker Shahina Siddiqui, president of the Islamic Social Services Association, told a news conference yesterday.
"We are part of the Canadian society and so we demand that the Canadian society come forward and help us to root out this."

Her group was among several organizations that called on Harper, Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty and Toronto Mayor David Miller to hold a summit by month's end to tackle the problem of marginalized youth in their community who are falling prey to the pull of radical elements.
Her group was joined by the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Muslim Students Association, Canadian Muslim Civil Liberties Association and several other agencies.

Their call was motivated by the recent arrests of 17 people in the Toronto area — including five youths — on charges they were plotting a bomb attack on Canadian soil.
But Siddiqui, a social worker, warned that more and more Muslim youth feel "marginalized and isolated" by the "ongoing harassment" of their faith, and are open to the recruiting of extremists.

"I'm seeing the children feeling as if they don't belong because of the onslaught on Islam and Islamo-phobia, the anti-Islam tilt in the media," she said.
"They feel there is no venue where they can express that resentment."
Siddiqui is hoping the proposed summit would develop a "tool kit" that could help parents and community leaders detect the "telltale" signs when young people get involved with extremists.

In the meantime, she says, parents need to stay alert to the influences on their children.
"If your children are hanging out in the mosque and they're talking to someone that you don't know, it's your duty to find out who they are," she said.
The call for a political summit, which would also involve community groups and youth organizations, won Miller's immediate support.

"We think this has to be addressed," Miller spokesperson Don Wanagas said, noting that the mayor was in contact with local Muslim leaders following the weekend vandalism of a Toronto mosque.
Queen's Park also offered its backing. In Ottawa, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day was in touch with Muslim leaders to ask for more information.

Opposition leaders urged the Conservatives to get involved.
"In this situation, discussion is absolutely vital. We welcome the initiative," NDP Leader Jack Layton said.
"It's clearly a very challenging issue. It's heartening to see leaders from the breadth of the community coming forward and saying, `We've got a problem, we've got to talk about it,'" Layton said.

Still, Karl Nickner, the executive director of the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations, said the problem of radicalization is "almost impossible" to detect.
"I go in mosques across the country, I meet Muslims across the country and I don't hear it — it's very hidden."

He said the dramatic news of the alleged terror cell was a "wake-up call."
"I think that the events of the last weekend (were) a surprise for all of us, a shock for the Muslim community," he said.
At the same time, Nickner sought to distance the Muslim community from an alleged terror plot, saying terrorism is "antithetical" to Islam.

"Whether people decide to act in a radical way or not is not our problem as Muslims," he said.


----------



## 1feral1

You know, over the years I have gotten a bad taste in my mouth for the ethinc communities (and the rest)calling themselves such, and our governments doing the same to be PC. What about Canadians of an islamic heritage, etc. You don't hear American Canadians, or English Canadians, yet alone Australian Canadians  ;D.

Canadians are simply that, regardless of colour and religion, and we should strive to keep our own identities as who we are at large, rather than have it drowned out or at least watered down.

I believe one of the first step to total acceptance from outside the circle is to attempt some type of assimilation (of course never forget your roots) is to maybe do this, and help narrow the gap, instead of widening it.

Time to cut the apron strings, and venture out.

Just a thought anyways.

Wes


----------



## Wizard of OZ

Wes

Could not agree with you more on the Canadian sentiment.  We seem to have forgotten the country we know live in over the one we left.

back on the topic.

I have yet to see any real press on how the Muslim community themselves are looking at dealing with this.  I heard rumblings that they want to meet with all levels of government in order to better develop a system to keep their youth on track.  Sounds like asking for money to me.  We can't solve our own problem so we will make the government give us money to solve it.

HL  I don't think a program is going to help it will be used against us like everything else.  The radicals don't want to change.  They want us to change.


----------



## tomahawk6

A bit off the topic but Zarqawi and friends were in the basement of a building with a double concrete roof. Based on the photo it looks to me like Zarqawi was killed by the concussion of the bomb blast.

Now on topic. The article below is about the fact that mosques seem to be the one link in all of these terror groups that are being rolled up. The fact that the government fails to characterize the threat from islamic extremists for fear of not being pc is absurd. If the terrorists were chrisitian's I bet the media would be all over that angle.

http://www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=20&artnum=1&issue=20060608


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

:

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060609/terrorism_poll_060609

71% believe terrorists will hit Canada: poll 
CTV.ca News Staff

A survey of Canadians conducted following the arrests of 17 terror suspects in southern Ontario found a significant shift in attitudes toward terrorism. 

A poll conducted by The Strategic Counsel for CTV and The Globe and Mail found that 71 per cent of respondents believe an act of terrorism will take place on Canadian soil within the next few years.

That number is up nine per cent from a similar poll conducted between Aug. 3-7, 2005.

When asked about the likelihood of Canada being a terror target because of its military presence in Afghanistan, 56 per cent said we are more likely to be attacked. 

This represents an increase of 18 per cent compared to one year ago. Thirty-four per cent say the military presence has no bearing; while five per cent say having soldiers in Afghanistan make us less susceptible to an attack. 

"Clearly, Canadians feel the whole initiative in Afghanistan is making us more susceptible to terrorist attacks," The Strategic Counsel's Managing Partner Tim Woolstencroft told CTV.ca. 

"But support for Afghanistan is up in all regions," he added. 

Indeed, total support for sending troops rose to 48 per cent, compared to 40 per cent in a similar poll conducted May 3-4. 

Those opposed dropped 10 points to 44 per cent since May.

Woolstencroft says, however, that "evidence suggests if there are more Canadian deaths, support for the war will probably go south."

Interestingly, an increasing number of people believe Canada is well prepared to deal with a terror threat should one occur.

Thirty-seven per cent say we're well prepared -- up 12 points since August, 2005; while 56 per cent say the nation is not well prepared, down 11 per cent.

Woolstencroft warned, however, that public opinion is far from being set, and that evidence suggests Canadians have a great deal of ambivalence about the mission in Afghanistan.

While the recent arrests of terror suspects have increased the public's confidence in the authorities, he warned there are still significant percentages of the population who believe Canada is not well prepared.

Immigration

A whopping 87 per cent of Canadians believe there are likely more active terrorist cells operating in Canada despite the recent arrests, and that terrorism will continue to be a threat. 

When asked what measure against the war on terrorism that Canadians would support, 41 per cent said they would agree to restrict the numbers of immigrants allowed into Canada from Muslim countries. 

The number, however, is up just two per cent since Aug. 2005.

Woolstencroft points out that Canadians' basic assumptions about immigration and the diversity of this country "haven't been shaken at all by (these latest arrests)." 

"Clearly, the results suggest a high degree of tolerance (for immigrants). This hasn't shifted Canadian attitudes toward immigration at all," he said.

When asked whether Canadians should be doing more to integrate immigrants into our culture, 37 per cent said we should be increasing our efforts, while 56 per cent said no new efforts are required.

Critics, however, wish Canada would speed up efforts to assimilate immigrant communities. They also contend that Canada lets in far too many immigrants without thorough screening.

While Washington has congratulated Canada for the recent arrest of terror suspects, some U.S. congressmen took the opportunity to criticize Canada's immigration laws.

Rep. Peter King, a New York Republican who chairs the House Homeland Security Committee, said Canada has "a disproportionate number of al Qaeda. ... because of their very liberal immigration laws (and) because of how political asylum is granted so easily." 

Rep. John Hostettler of Indiana said many Canadian immigrants don't share "traditional Canadian values."

And David Harris, a former Canadian security official, suggested this week that Canada suspend its immigration and refugee program until it reduces security risks. 

Wilson defended the system, saying Canada's ratio of accepting asylum-seekers was roughly the same as that of the U.S.

Canada's ambassador to the United States, however, says the accusations are off-base. 

"Is the process perfect? No," Michael Wilson told The Associated Press on Friday. "But I think the results are pretty darned good. ... We have a reputation for fairness and compassion, but we've also got a very good system for screening every applicant."

Wilson noted that Canada tightened immigration procedures after the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States. But no further changes are planned because of the recent arrests.

Technical information

Interviews for this poll were conducted between June 7 and 8, 2006.

Nationally, 1,000 people were sampled. The sampling error is plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.

With files from The Associated Press


----------



## ACIGSkyler

> "Clearly, Canadians feel the whole initiative in Afghanistan is making us more susceptible to terrorist attacks," The Strategic Counsel's Managing Partner Tim Woolstencroft told CTV.ca.



Seems to me we were a target long before that.



> Woolstencroft says, however, that "evidence suggests if there are more Canadian deaths, support for the war will probably go south."



I don't have any evidence, but don't think thats true. I could be fooling myself though.



> Nationally, 1,000 people were sampled. The sampling error is plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20.



More indepth information on the sampling would be helpful: Political leanings, age, location, that sort of thing.

Court


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Well, this could be some headway that has been mentioned more than once...

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060609/muslim_leaders_060610

Muslim leaders want 'radical elements' removed 
CTV.ca News Staff

Muslim religious leaders promise to report any suspicious behaviour from their followers to authorities and abide by a zero-tolerance policy against preaching hatred in the wake of last week's terror arrests.

Leaders representing more than 30 mosques and Muslim organizations throughout Canada gathered in Toronto Saturday to deliver the message, and remind Canadians not to discriminate against Muslims.

The leaders admitted there are pockets of radical fundamentalists within their community who believe in violence, but said co-operation by the Muslim community led to the arrests of 17 terror suspects.

The alleged bombing plot in southern Ontario was a wakeup call to Muslims who were shocked and appalled by the arrests, leaders said.

Ahmed Amiruddin taught at a Mississauga mosque where some of the accused worshipped.

"They would sometimes appear in the mosque with military fatigues, and there's more than one witness for this. Many people have seen them," Amiruddin said.

The alleged terror ringleader, 43-year-old Qayyum Abdul Jamal, was a role model for teenagers at the Al-Rahman Islamic Centre in Mississauga, which was also attended by six other detained terror suspects.

"Let's make sure that we take a second look at who we are allowing to come and preach, what books are allowed into our centres," said Asad Dean, of the Meadowvale Islamic Centre.

"We will have to become more vigilant as well in the Muslim community, that if we see any signs of this that we immediately pay attention and take action to address this issue."

The Canadian Council of Ahl Sunna wal Jamaah (CCAS) blamed the Toronto terror plot, as well of terror attacks in London and Madrid, on a small minority of Muslims who subscribe to a "vile doctrine of literalistic ideology."

The group emphasized the "vast majority" of Canadian Muslims follow a moderate form of Islam.

"The (CCAS) is convinced that the time has come for Muslim Canadians to adopt a different approach in view of the reality it now finds itself in,'' said spokesman Akbar Khan.

Liberal MP Wajid Khan said he is tired of hearing Muslim speakers emphasizing that Islam is not to blame for the arrests.

"Nobody is saying it is (Islam)," he said. "Why are we talking about these 17 people based on faith?"

"Let's not take the temperature up so high," he said. "There is an issue and we have to address it as a nation."

With a report from CTV Toronto's Desmond Brown and files from The Canadian Press


----------



## George Wallace

And now something from Vent:

http://hotair.com/archives/vent/2006/06/07/jihadis-among-us/


----------



## a_majoor

From Free Will, a nasty "sum up" for Eric Margolis:

http://www.freewillblog.com/ Sunday June 11 2006



> Broad Strata Arrested
> 
> The Royal Canadian Mounted Police uncovers a plot to murder hordes of innocent Ontarians.
> 
> From an unmarried computer programmer to a university health sciences graduate and the unemployed, the 17 suspects charged in a foiled terrorist plot represent a "broad strata'' of Canadian society.
> 
> "Some are students, some are employed, some are unemployed,'' RCMP assistant Commissioner Mike McDonell said Saturday.
> 
> One might also take that to mean that they include both Sunnis and Shi'ites, since for such an diverse group, Michelle Malkin notes that they all seem to have something in common:
> 
> 1. Fahim Ahmad, 21, Toronto;
> 2. Zakaria Amara, 20, Mississauga, Ont.;
> 3. Asad Ansari, 21, Mississauga;
> 4. Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30, Mississauga;
> 5. Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, Mississauga;
> 6. Mohammed Dirie, 22, Kingston, Ont.;
> 7. Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, Kingston;
> 8. Jahmaal James, 23, Toronto;
> 9. Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19, Toronto;
> 10. Steven Vikash Chand alias Abdul Shakur, 25, Toronto;
> 11. Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21, Mississauga;
> 12. Saad Khalid, 19, of Eclipse Avenue, Mississauga.
> 
> I'm sure this doesn't have anything to do with Islam. Indeed, four years ago, Tim Blair had already noted the poetry of Zakaria Amara:
> 
> I'll always be a contender
> Yes, I know my bones are very tender
> And by Allah you won't see me surrender
> Look at my eyes? You'll see no butterflies
> My home is filled with cries... due to all the lost lives
> But I swear by Allah I'll never compromise
> I'll still throw the stones even with my broken bones
> Why can't I hear from you, don't you have any phones?
> Ya I forgot, your not on the chase, try it out and put your self in my place
> Soon I'll return to my lord, the one that deserves every grace
> Oh you don't have to worry cause of me you'll find no trace
> It really is too late, why did you wait?
> You could have sent me at least one dinner plate
> I guess it is my fate
> And La Ilaha Illa Allah is my mate.
> 
> Anybody who writes poetry that bad belongs in a prison cell. A similar argument can be made for anyone who has stockpiled three tons of explosives.
> 
> The Canadian surveillance found members of the group on Jihadist sites "vowing to attack at home, in the name of oppressed Muslims here and abroad."
> 
> Sympathizing with this point of view is Toronto Sun columnist Eric Margolis, who shockingly declares that "Canada is a target", something Americans have been trying to explain to Canadians for years:
> 
> Canadians got a taste of the real world over the past two days.
> 
> The arrest Friday of 17 suspected terrorists is stark evidence Canadians can no longer expect to escape the private enterprise violence by small groups that we call "terrorism."
> 
> Note the obscure implication of the evils of capitalism: "Private enterprise violence". Sadly for Margolis, very rarely does terrorist activity come about through some effort at criminalistic enterprise, given that martyrdom eliminates the hope of escaping with the loot. *Rather, it's almost always deliberately fomented, facilitated and supplied by national governments, whether it's the Soviets, the Libyans or the Iranians, even if it's indirectly through the establishment of wealthy and sympathetic mosques around the world.*
> (_interpolation by me: Although this was very true in the past, I am not altogether certain this still applies today. Searching through historical analogies the closest that comes to mind is the nihilist/anarchist movements of the 1800s, where rather than a central motivating actor, anarchists and nihilists were motivated by a common set of ideas to attempt the assassinations of government leaders and so on._)
> 
> Three weeks ago, I warned a conference of Department of National Defence staff and police officers that the greatest security threat to Canada would come not from the shadowy al-Qaida organization abroad, but from angry young Canadian Muslims opposed to Canada's presence in Afghanistan and its tacit support of U.S. policy in Iraq and Palestine.
> 
> This raises one of my favorite "Canadian stories", a conversation with a woman who was baffled at why we were attacking Iraq, a country that wasn't directly tied to Al Qaeda. The notion that there is a general "Islamic terror" problem completely paralyzed her sensibilities. Margolis, too, apparently feels that this was some kind of radical new idea.
> 
> The previous terrorist bombings in London and Madrid were not conducted by al-Qaida operatives freelancing from Afghanistan or Pakistan.
> 
> They were carried out by young British-born Muslim men and Spanish residents opposed to their nation's intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan.
> 
> The 17 arrested men are all apparently Muslim, with one possible exception. The RCMP alleges the suspects planned to use three tons of fertilizer (ammonium nitrate) to build deadly truck bombs for use against targets in southern Ontario.
> 
> This scenario is plausible.
> 
> Indeed it is. Canadians complain that Americans believe their country is being used as a base for Islamist terrorist cells, but ignore that the Canadian Intelligence Service said so way back in 2000.
> 
> Radical Muslims around the world see western intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan as crimes against the Islamic world, part of a new anti-Muslim crusade directed from Washington.
> 
> *Nevermind that these people didn't see the government of Afghanistan as crimes against the Islamic world, which makes their perverted version of Islam a bloodthirsty death cult which should be opposed and fought by all civilized and just people.* What's really important here is how the intervention makes everybody feel, apparently.
> 
> A small number of extremists may have decided to punish Canada for sending troops to fight in Afghanistan.
> 
> One of that small number of extremists? An obscure figure known as Osama bin Laden, who specifically named Canada and several other nations for daring to defy him, implying they'd face the same sort of wrath Australia faced in the Bali bombings for trying to save innocent people in East Timor.
> 
> Begin obligatory anti-American conspiracy theory:
> 
> These raids by hundreds of Canadian security officers and police against a relatively small number of mostly young Muslim suspects in Mississauga, Toronto and Kingston suggest this high-profile operation may have been designed as much for public relations and diplomatic reasons as national security. No doubt, Washington will be very pleased with Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
> 
> But not everyone accused is always guilty.
> 
> It's possible that among the 12 adults and five minors charged, Canadian security organizations have rounded up some loud-mouthed teenagers who have been encouraged to sedition by government "agents provocateurs."
> 
> Look for this in the next Michael Moore movie: "Their poetry is so bad, they couldn't possibly have written it themselves. Besides, this could never happen in Canada!"
> 
> In any event, by sending combat troops to Afghanistan, Canada has declared itself an active participant in the U.S.-led war against Islamic militancy.
> 
> Also, a country populated by "human beings". Of course, Afghanistan is a pretty low bar, since even the French went in on that one.
> 
> As a result, Canadians must now expect what CIA veterans refer to as "blow-back."
> 
> Once admired by all and hated by none, Canada has now made itself a terrorist target.
> 
> It always was, Eric, it always was, just like every other country that doesn't understand why voting is Satanic. You poor, naive soul.
> 
> *Margolis is apparently warning that Canada should not use their power, such as it is, to help the innocent and do what's morally right, but instead only to avoid the slings and arrows of responsibility. He clearly believes that if Canada had never gone into Afghanistan, they would not be a terrorist target today. Unfortunately, Islamist "militants" themselves hold kafir nations to a rather higher standard, as Indonesian "spiritual leader" Abu Bakar Bashir explained from his prison cell:*
> 
> SA: What can the West, especially the US, do to make the world more peaceful?
> 
> ABB: They have to stop fighting Islam. That's impossible because it is sunnatullah [destiny, a law of nature], as Allah has said in the Koran. If they want to have peace, they have to accept to be governed by Islam....We'll keep fighting them and they'll lose. The batil [falsehood] will lose sooner or later. I sent a letter to Bush. I said that you'll lose and there is no point for you [to fight us]. This [concept] is found in the Koran.
> 
> SA: How can the American regime and its policies change?
> 
> ABB: We'll see. As long as there is no intention to fight us and Islam continues to grow there can be peace. This is the doctrine of Islam. Islam can't be ruled by others. Allah's law must stand above human law. There is no [example] of Islam and infidels, the right and the wrong, living together in peace.
> 
> If Canada wants peace, they must abandon their ways and accept the rise and eventual global rule of Islamic law. Saudi Sheikh Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid concurs:
> 
> If Islam was only spread by peaceful means, what would the kuffaar have to be afraid of? Of mere words spoken on the tongue?...Would the kuffaar be afraid of being told, "become Muslim, but if you do not then you are free to believe and do whatever you want"? or were they afraid of jihad and the imposition of the jizyah and being humiliated? That may make them enter Islam so that they may be spared this humiliation....
> 
> This is something for which Islam deserves to be praised, not condemned. The defeatists should fear Allaah lest they distort this religion and cause it to become weak on the basis of the claim that it is a religion of peace. Yes, it is the religion of peace but in the sense of saving all of mankind from worshipping anything other than Allaah and submitting all of mankind to the rule of Allaah.
> 
> Next week, Margolis explains that Canada should've expected "blowback" for not executing women who wear miniskirts.



The interview with Abu Bakar Bashir is a very clear indication of the "Root Causetm" of terrorism; the desire to control the community through fear and force, rather than achieve leadership through consensual means. No amount of negotiation, dialogue or appeasment will stay their hands, *we* need to go about our day to day usiness as usual (*our victory*) and keep our eyes open for signs of trouble.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

This lawyer/clown needs to take a little "tour" of the middle east, much the same way Mr. Loney needs too.  

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/12062006/2/national-lawyers-say-terror-suspects-tortured-detention.html

*Lawyers say some of the terror suspects are being tortured while in detention 
1 hour, 35 minutes ago
By Gregory Bonnell

BRAMPTON, Ont. (CP) - Lawyers representing the terror suspects arrested in the Toronto area earlier this month say some of the men are being tortured and beaten while in detention. 


Rocco Galati told reporters Monday that the men are being kept in isolation in rooms that are lit 24 hours a day and are woken up every half hour. 


Another lawyer said his client was beaten by a guard after he giggled because he felt ticklish while being searched. 


David Kolinsky said the guard pinned his client to the ground, drilled his knuckle into the man's cheek and said, "is this funny?" 


"Under the convention against torture and other cruel and unusual punishment the instances of mistreatment that defence counsel have cited as going on at the jail constitute torture," Galati said outside the court where some of 17 men accused in an alleged terror plot appeared. 


Galati said the men have been denied access to their lawyers and have been allowed no time outdoors for five straight days. 


He said the accused are given only five minutes to eat their meals or else the food is taken away. 


The men are not allowed to speak to anyone, including the guards, and are being forced to keep their eyes on the floor at all times. 


"When they are escorted or walked from point A to point B, they must walk at a 90-degree angle with their legs upright and their torso across at a 90-degree angle with handcuffs stretched out and be escorted by three armed tactical members of the security forces," he said. 


Galati called the treatment of the men and youths "unprecedented" and said the suspects have been publicly declared guilty by the prime minister, the mayor of Toronto and some Muslim community leaders. 


These and other actions associated with the case call into question whether the accused could now get fair treatment by the justice system, the lawyer said. 


"Within mere days of the arrests, the prime minister of Canada and the mayor of Toronto publicly declared the guilt of the accused," Galati said outside the courthouse. 


"Some leaders of the opposition, MPs and senators have also declared their guilt," he said. 


"Self-proclaimed leaders of the Muslim community, in a desperate attempt to distance themselves from the accused have declared them guilty as well." 


Galati represents Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, a 21-year-old recent health sciences graduate of McMaster University in Hamilton. Ghany is the son of a doctor who immigrated to Canada from Trinidad and Tobago more than 40 years ago. 


The 17 suspects face a variety of charges including knowingly participating in or contributing to terrorist activity, providing or receiving training for terrorist purposes and providing or making available property for a terrorist activity. 


Weapons and explosives charges include committing indictable offences, in this case planning to cause an explosion and importing firearms and ammunition, to benefit a terrorist group. 

The maximum sentences for participating in terrorism, training and making property available are 10 years in prison. 

The weapons and explosives offences would be crimes in any case, but proof that they were linked to a terrorist objective would raise the maximum sentence to life in prison. 

Galati also pointed to the heavy military force surrounding court proceedings last week, including the presence of SWAT team members inside the courtroom, saying it all leads to the denial of a fair bail hearing. 

"The military show of force was oppressive and . . . included three outside perimeters with a tactical team with automatic assault rifles, rooftop snipers, helicopters and dogs," he said. 

"It also included inside the courtroom armed SWAT team members with automatic assault rifles." 

Media from around the world were at the courthouse, as they were last week when the men made their first appearance, but their families had no comment. 

Several male family members or supporters held hands to form a protective ring around the women as they made their way from the parking lot into the courthouse. 

Among those in attendance was Karim Khadr, the son of Ahmed Said Khadr, an associate of Osama bin Laden who was killed in a fire fight with Pakistani forces in 2003. * 

It is pretty hilarious/annoying how easy it is to throw around the "torture" label these days.  I imagine that not letting them have their favorite bankies and New Jihadists on the Block CD's is torture too.


----------



## vangemeren

*Lawyers for bomb plot suspects upset over publication ban*

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/12/galati-client.html

Last Updated Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:45:53 EDT
CBC News 
Lawyers for some of the suspects in the alleged plot to bomb high-profile sites in southern Ontario are upset that a judge has placed a publication ban on the proceedings.

  
Rocco Galati, the lawyer for two of the 17 bomb plot suspects, is angry over police leaks: 'There is no way, in my professional view, that these accused can now have a fair trial.' (CBC)  
Rocco Galati, who represents 21-year-old Ahmad Ghany, said he will appeal the ban, arguing it's unfair because of the damaging allegations that have been made in public against his clients.

Defence lawyer Arif Raza echoed Galati, saying he sees no need for a ban now.

"Rather than have speculation in the press, I think that justice would be better served by accurately reporting what precisely had happened in the court."

The 12 adults and five youths were arrested in southern Ontario on June 2-3 and charged under the federal Anti-terrorism Act. Fourteen appeared in court in Brampton, Ont., on Monday as a judge set out the terms for their bail hearings.

The ban, which applies to evidence heard in court, comes as lawyers for some of the suspects claim their clients are being mistreated while they are in custody.

David Kolinsky, a lawyer representing Zakaria Amara, said his client was assaulted by one of the guards. He claimed that as his client was being searched, the guard touched his ribs.

"He's ticklish. He giggled a bit," Kolinsky said. He said the guard then pinned Amara down to the ground and drilled his finger into his cheek "quite hard and said, 'Is this funny?'"

Kolinsky added that the guard also flicked him quite hard on the eye. 

Galati said his clients were being kept in rooms that are lit 24 hours a day and were denied access to the outdoors for the first five days.

"They have five minutes to eat their meals or they are taken away," he said.

"The accused are not aliens from another planet. They are Canadians accused under the Criminal Code. No more, no less."

When being taken somewhere by guards, they must walk with their legs upright and torso at a 90-degree angle with their arms stretched out, he said.

Galati also claimed that security officials are leaking information, which could compromise a fair trial.

He alleged Monday that "confidential police sources" were feeding information to the news media while lawyers were being kept in the dark.

"There is no way, in my professional view, that these accused can now have a fair trial. How is that possible?" Galati said to reporters outside the courthouse.

"The politicians and select members of the media are given heads-up of investigations, given heads-up of arrests. It is unprecedented."

Meanwhile, Galati alleges that defence lawyers have not been provided with any evidence, only allegations.

Meant to influence MPs, lawyer alleges

The adult suspects — who range in age from 19 to 43 and are all residents of Ontario — have been charged with a variety of offences, including knowingly participating in a terrorist group and either receiving or providing terrorist training.

Investigators identified them as individuals who were "inspired by al-Qaeda," the militant Islamic group that took credit for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

Galati called the timing of the arrests suspicious and accused security officials of trying to influence members of Parliament, who will soon vote on whether to extend the Anti-terrorism Act, which became part of the Criminal Code in December 2001.

The MPs will soon vote on extending the law, which gives police the power to arrest people and hold them without charge for up to 72 hours if they're suspected of planning a terrorist act. It also makes it easier for police to use electronic surveillance in their investigation of certain offences.

Galati also alleges that the arrests were meant to sway this week's planned Supreme Court hearings on the constitutionality of the legislation.

'The accused are not aliens from another planet. They are Canadians accused under the Criminal Code. No more, no less.'
-Rocco Galati, lawyer for a suspect in the alleged bomb plotPrior to these arrests, only one other person had been charged under the anti-terrorist provisions, which were introduced largely in response to the Sept. 11 attacks on the U.S.


----------



## Franko

Torture 'eh?      :

More accusations and heresay....anything to get a sound bite on the news IMHO.

Prove the guards did it and have 'em charged.

As for the lights and getting checked up on....perhapse Bruce can shed some light on it.

Methinks it may be to prevent a suicide?

My $0.02 worth.

Regards


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I know most of the CO's that are taking care of these lads..........and Mr-Lawyer man is just setting up for the "waaah" argument here.

Trust me, there are more sets of "eyes" on these guys and the area they are in than on tonight's hockey game.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

I knew I remembered this POS from somewhere.  Apparantly...he has a new set of balls or a change of heart...or an empty bank account.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1070625559684_109//

Terror suspect lawyer quits cases over threat
Updated Fri. Dec. 5 2003 7:50 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

A prominent Toronto lawyer known for defending national security cases says he won't be handling any more. Rocco Galati says he's heeding a frightening death threat over his handling the case of Abdul Rahman Khadr.

Galati says he received the threat on his answering machine the day after he held a news conference with Khadr, a Canadian citizen recently returned to Toronto after two years in a U.S.-run military prison in Cuba. 

The short message from a man's voice says: "Well, Mr. Galati. What's this I hear about you working with the terrorist now, helping to get that (expletive) punk terrorist Khadr off. You a dead wop." 

"I received the message. I take it seriously. And I am withdrawing from all my national security cases," Galati told reporters Thursday.

Galati says be believes the message was from someone involved with a U.S. intelligence agency. He says the voice is familiar to him and his counsel, Paul Slansky, from a previous case.

"This is serious. This is an institutional threat. It's not an individual threat," Galati said, with Slansky at his side.

"The voice is similar and likely the same as a voice of someone who threatened one of our former clients," he said, adding later that "in that case, our client disappeared."

"This message is different from the run-of-the-mill rantings and ravings that one as a lawyer will normally receive."

*"Any lawyer call tell a serious threat from a loon, and this is a serious threat."* _( I doubt this POS could tell time)_
Galati says he went to local police and the RCMP requesting protection, but they refused. He says all they did was to put his house on alert for 911 emergency calls. He says he doesn't feel safe enough to continue handling national security cases.

As he spoke, he choked back tears but said it wasn't because he feared for his safety. 

"I'm on the verge of tears because it means we now live in Colombia because the rule of law is meaningless. It means that lawyers cannot represent anyone even in what you profess to be a democracy here in Canada." 

Steven Skurka, Canada AM's legal analyst, says he was shocked when he heard those comments. 

"When you say something like that, your credibility with the public just goes down to zero. What may a real threat is to take that seriously -- this is not Colombia, I can tell you, and the rule of law still operates," Skurke said.

In Ottawa, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) called Galati's suggestion that intelligence agencies may have been behind the threat "absurd."

"The allegation that CSIS had any involvement in the death threat, that's absurd," spokesperson Nicole Currier told The Canadian Press.

Galati has represented many high-profile cases concerning allegations of terrorism and national security. But he says now, having been refused protection, he's dropping them all.

In his latest case, Galati, who was called to the bar in 1989, pressed Ottawa to help return Khadr to Canada. He has been a strong advocate for Khadr since his repatriation.

Khadr has insisted that neither he nor his family has any links to terrorism. He admitted to training at an "al Qaeda-related training camp" in Afghanistan in 1998, but denied his family has ties to Osama bin Laden. 

Khadr's brother Omar remains in custody in Guantanamo Bay, the lone Canadian citizen there. Like the more than 660 other detainees, he has not been charged with any crime.

Galati's other clients have included accused Al Jihad member Mahmoud Jaballah, who was held in solitary confinement for more than two years without charge. 

Before talking to the media Thursday, Galati also withdrew as lawyer for Abdellah Ouzghar, a Hamilton resident who is in the process of being deported to France based on a conviction of falsifying passports.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

I think the idea of being mistreated by the guards is a whole lot of white wash and bull crappies.

1) lights on all night, my reasoning for this and I did not give any long term thinking to the problem.

possible reasons for this are: a) sucide watch, no guard will want to have one of them do it on his shift, too hard to explain tot he media and lawyers why they did not see it happening and stop it.  some of them might try it to get more attention, become a martyr to their cause.
after all  if they die for their cause they get to go straight to their version of heaven and have a whole lot of virgins to do their bidding

b) the handcuff thing, I think all immates get that treatment and it is for the guards protection and other immates protection, if every one walks in the same manner, everyone can see where the immates hands are.

c) having to talk thru plexiglass walls, i see that in most jails on tv,  do not see a problem, comes into personal protection on both sides of the glass. 

d) little or no privacy, they are in jail and what do you expect. it is not a hotel with personal room attendants to take care of every need and desire.

e) not being allowed outside, do these guys really want to risk being put out with other guests of the hotel, some of the other guests might not take to kindly to strangers wanting to blow up their city.

if they want to see torture and have something to complain about, let them go back to the country of their religion and see how well they are cared for over there.

I am sure there are some Canadians out there that could be selected for jury duty who could form their own opinions on a person's guilt or not guilty without having the government and the police and any one else tell them how to think on this matter.

I person think i could be a good juror and form my own ideas on if they are guilty or not. I do not need a Pm or police officer to help or guide me to that  idea.  

I do not understand why a lawyer would think that his fellow Canadians cannot or would think and form their own opinions on the matter.
I have formed my and I hope the jury forms their own opinions on the case when they hear it.
I do not think they are guilty of everything but they are guilty of something. what crimes they commited i do not know till i read the case as it comes to trial, and I am sure other people will keep an open mind to this fact too.

I hope they catch who ever called that lawyer and charge them with case tampering or what ever they get charged with, it is not legal they broke the law punish them too.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Perhaps our prison guard can address your points, point by point.


----------



## Lumber

Q: What does their treatment while being detained have to do with their guilt or innocence? If the lawyers are simply trying to bring in media attention, well for one theres PLENTY of media attention already and two they should be trying to point attention towards their innocence. Not the prison guards guilt?


----------



## zipperhead_cop

NCdt Lumber said:
			
		

> Q: What does their treatment while being detained have to do with their guilt or innocence? If the lawyers are simply trying to bring in media attention, well for one theres PLENTY of media attention already and two they should be trying to point attention towards their innocence. Not the prison guards guilt?



They are trying to prime the potential juror pool.  Only a recluse or a coma victim will not have heard about this case, but if the lawyers can get enough media attention on smoke and mirrors BS (and the media puppets are falling right in line) then when jury selection comes, a potential juror might have that unsubstantiated seed of abuse in the back of their heads.  Then, when the terrorist gets on the stand and cries about mistreatment, the juror goes "oh, I remember hearing something about that".  
However, at least around these parts (Essex County), there are no jury trials.  The criminals elect to be tried Judge only, and skip the jury.  Why?  Because juries are made up of normal people, and normal people are often burdened with what is rarely found in the legal system:  common sense.  Better to have a judge alone (who used to be a lawyer) then you can spin up your evidentiary arguments and charter complaints.  If they do end up with a jury, I feel sorry for those people and the mountain of evidence they will have to endure.  The wire taps alone will be months of info to digest.


----------



## Lumber

Sorry to spam the thread but I forgot to place this in my last post.

Q: I seek your opinions! Do you feel that due to the nature of the charges facing these 17 individuals, specifically Terrorism, that we as a Nation are more willing to 'look the other way' in term of their right and their treatment? If a murderer was found to have been mistreated while being detained during his trial, while we may all feel that 'he deserves' it, most of us would agree that it would have been better that he were treated fairly and justly and not harmed at all. With these 17 people, as presumed terrorists, do you feel that they have, by attacking our common feeling of community and security, abandoned their right to our kindness and fairness?


----------



## zipperhead_cop

NCdt Lumber said:
			
		

> Sorry to spam the thread but I forgot to place this in my last post.
> 
> Q: I seek your opinions! Do you feel that due to the nature of the charges facing these 17 individuals, specifically Terrorism, that we as a Nation are more willing to 'look the other way' in term of their right and their treatment? If a murderer was found to have been mistreated while being detained during his trial, while we may all feel that 'he deserves' it, most of us would agree that it would have been better that he were treated fairly and justly and not harmed at all. With these 17 people, as presumed terrorists, do you feel that they have, by attacking our common feeling of community and security, abandoned their right to our kindness and fairness?



I am assuming that you are a Canadian Naval cadet?  Have you not been following any politics in this country, and how the system works for "special people"?
If anyone in this country can look forward to an exhaustively thorough and fair trial, it will be these clowns.  This case will set the tone for all other terrorism incidents that will occur in the future, so they are going to be anal retentive in their handling of it.  That is why the abuse allegations being forwarded by the now-to-terrified-to-practice-law lawyer Galati are so laughable.  Nobody in Canada has more rights and privileges than criminals.  No one group has more time and expense exhausted to their benefit.  If aliens were watching (and who's to say they aren't) you would think criminals were some sort of preferred citizen class for all of the consideration they receive.  
So these guys, with all of the full force of white mans burden to not mention their religion, coupled with the socialist agenda that the judiciary pursues at any given time, compounded by a media that has a bone to pick with the current Federal gov't, are doing pretty good right about now.  I will stand by to be amazed if they get some convictions.  Not because I have any doubt as to their guilt, but because it is just so darn un-Canadian to have terrorists.  Don't underestimate how strong that head-in-the-sand instinct will be in this trial.  
And even upon conviction, wait and see how toothless and lame the sentencing is.  I will be thrilled to stand by and be proven wrong.  Time will tell.


----------



## Lumber

I see your point in terms of their rights. I disagree however with your outlook on the severity of their sentencing. I feel that once it has been made clear that they indeed received a fair trial, they will lose their 'preferred' citizen status. Quite simply if they are convicted as terrorists in a fair trial, no social group or media outlet is going to raise havock over a harsh sentence. But as you say, time will tell.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

NCdt Lumber said:
			
		

> I see your point in terms of their rights. I disagree however with your outlook on the severity of their sentencing. I feel that once it has been made clear that they indeed received a fair trial, they will lose their 'preferred' citizen status. Quite simply if they are convicted as terrorists in a fair trial, no social group or media outlet is going to raise havock over a harsh sentence. But as you say, time will tell.



Perhaps I wasn't clear.  I'm not worried about any back lash from the sentencing.  I am saying there is no such thing as a harsh sentence in Canada, and I don't believe they will get much more than a poo-poo face from the judge and a pittance of a sentence (hey, that rhymes!).  Hell, actual murderers don't generally do much more than about fifteen years.  Most of these clowns will still be plenty young enough to do some quality jihad-ing whenever they are released.  And don't forget the precious "children" in this.  By law, unless they get bumped up to adult court, the most they can possibly do is three years.  And that would be at a fenced day care, where you loose your video game privileges if you don't do your chores.  Minus time served which counts for double, which by the time it makes it to court, IF they get convicted, they are looking at an extra three months (don't forget the statutory release after 1/3 sentance done).  woo.


----------



## aluc

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1150149009992&call_pageid=970599109774&col=Columnist969907621263

Many ironies as case unfolds
Jun. 13, 2006. 01:00 AM
ROSIE DIMANNO

Guantanamo! Torture! Suicide!

The exclamatory buzzwords were all over the place in, of all places, a Brampton courtroom yesterday.

Aliens alighting from another planet — knowing nothing of Canada's civilized temperament — might think this the most brutal and bludgeoning of police states, to hear lawyers for 17 alleged terrorists tell it.

How their clients — a dozen adults and five minors (though not so minor that they've been unable to summon healthy beards out of their androgens) — are being unspeakably mistreated by thuggish guards, subjected to oppressive and inhumane conditions, in the various custodial institutions where they currently reside as guests of Her Majesty.

"Torture! They push us!'' shouted one of the adult accused, in an outburst that drew only the most mild admonishment from the bench.

The rhetoric was fast and furious and fulminous, with obligatory referencing of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay and living circumstances purportedly so hideous that, well, the prospect of suicide born of despair shouldn't be ruled out.

They have been in custody now, these 17 males who were allegedly plotting to blow up stuff in Southern Ontario, for all of 11 days.

The most pungent statement of all, however, wasn't verbal, it was visual: Karim Khadr, the youngest terrorism-tinged member of Canada's celebrity-insurgent Khadr clan. Dramatically entering the courtroom in his wheelchair, then gently lifted by reverent acolytes and borne to a front-row seat.

The Comeback Kid.

Hey guys, he's there for you.

This was the teenager's first public appearance since returning to Canada from Afghanistan via Pakistan, brought home to partake of top-drawer medical treatment at the Hospital for Sick Children. His paralyzing problem — a bullet in the back, suffered whilst in the company of his father, who was fighting on behalf of Al Qaeda and slain in an exchange of fire with coalition forces.

Karim wore a "Stewie'' T-shirt — the insolent American cartoon character — and a kaffiyeh.

For anyone who thought, hoped, that perhaps the poison poured into this boy's ear during his childhood — most especially by a father intimately associated with Osama bin Laden — might have dissipated with renewed exposure to a society that is treating him exceedingly well, here was glum proof otherwise.

He is, yesterday's scenario suggests, very much his father's son.

As are two of his brothers — one incarcerated at Guantanamo, allegedly the hurler of a grenade that killed an American serviceman; the other fighting extradition to the United States, which is seeking to try him on terrorism-related charges.

Then there's the unrepentant mother and the truculent sister — both also in court yesterday — so maybe the kid never stood a chance, really, to piece his psyche back together again.

The posse that formed around Karim in his to-ing and fro-ing from court — young Muslim men with their chests thrust out to here — were clearly in tender thrall to the teenager. Perhaps, with his atrophied legs, he is Exhibit A in the professed assault of the West against their faith and their values. He is their tragedy, their undead martyr.

Karim is rumoured to have had a direct connection to one of the accused, perhaps a student-tutor relationship. But by his presence yesterday, he was certainly claiming ownership of a moral alliance.

And because the Khadrs are not just anybodies — they are notorious radicals, with thick intelligence dossiers — the suspicion grows that whatever was being fomented by alleged terrorist cadres in Scarborough and Mississauga (with gusts to Kingston, where two of the accused were already serving time on gun-related charges when the arrest sweeps occurred) may have been even more encompassing, more frightful, than currently portrayed.

The Khadrs aren't mere hapless jihadist dreamers, as some pre-emptively exculpatory commentators have characterized the 17 accused.

They're doers.

The irony, of course, is that the values the accused allegedly rejected in their headlong flight toward militancy, as described by investigators, are precisely the values — judicial, most critically at the moment — that are protecting their rights now, just as they safeguarded Karim's right to seek medical attention here and another brother's right to possession of a Canadian passport that had been refused him three years ago, as ruled by a federal court just this past Friday.

It is either frustrating or inspirational — take your pick — to watch, again, as Canada's most precious covenants are manipulated to justify rancid repudiation of the basic principles we all live by in this country.

If the allegations against them are true, these 17 accused planned to target some of the very institutions that they now turn to for relief from their purported misery. On the street, this is known as sucking and blowing.

The contradictions are staggering, between what the accused and their supporters claim to be the heavy-handedness of the state — bullying cops making a mountain out of an ammonium nitrate molehill, goose-marching to the tune of Washington's "war on terror'' — and the extremely conscientious application of this country's laws, as demonstrated in court yesterday.

A panoply of lawyers, speaking outside the courtroom, bandied about stunning accusations and egregious condemnations, huffing and puffing about insufficient exercise time, small cells, sleep deprivation, lights kept on all the time, improper disclosure by the Crown, and seclusion from the general jail population such that it constitutes de facto solitary confinement.

This, apparently, is Guantanamo Bay North.

One maintained his client had been beaten by guards. None of the accused — clean and tidy in their grey jailhouse pants and white tees — appeared to have so much as a bruise, or even a hair combed out of place.

Several lawyers complained about "leaks'' to the media by police and intelligence sources, as if this is uncommon practice.

Yet the most shocking allegations — beheading the Prime Minister and such — were put out there by these same lawyers, as they scrummed about the courthouse last week. A publication ban, issued yesterday — against the wishes of all but one defence attorney — will curb their hyperbole.

The lawyers want it both ways, to mince and damn, attack and repel.

So, too, apparently, do the defendants and those who venerate them.


----------



## John Nayduk

Let me shed a little light on the "torture" these guys are enduring in custody.  I work for the Windsor (Ontario) Police Service in the dention unit.  From what I am hearing, these guys are treated the same as anybody else that gets arrested.  We leave the light on and check the prisoners every 30 minutes to ensure that they are OK.  We feed them three times a day.  When we transport them, they are chained together (it's hard to run away when you're chained to other guys).  For high risk prisoners, it's common for the tact team guys to be in attendance.  Nobody gets reading material of any kind.  Everybody is searched during the booking process and all of their belongings are bagged and sealed.  It is returned when they are released from custody.  Evey square foot of the detention unit is video taped.  I'm sure that there isn't one guy who wants to be the one that gets the case thrown out for something he did to these guys while they are in custody.
Why would we treat these guys any different than anybody else?  They are accused criminals and should be treated no differently than the drug dealers or murderers that are arrested.  If we did, someone bitch about that now wouldn't they?


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt

Interesting assessment re: Mayor David Miller and who he was sharing information with....



> http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/cover061206.htm
> Mayor Miller micromanaging Toronto terror news?
> By Judi McLeod & Doug Hagmann
> Monday, June 12, 2006
> 
> Did a November election-bound Toronto Mayor David Miller and his handpicked Chief of Police Bill Blair give The Toronto Star its exclusive scoop on the historic police raid on 17 suspected terrorists, on June 2?
> 
> Sources tell Canada Free Press that many of the approximate 400 officers who participated in the raid felt "compromised" when they arrived at the Pickering police station to find Star staff on site.
> 
> When the roughly 400 police officers–who had to sign the Official Secrets Act pledging their total discretion–arrived to deliver the suspects to the Durham Regional Police Station in Pickering–Toronto Star reporters were already there.
> 
> Because of a concern that some of the groups’ members had acquired explosives, the sensitive operation called for extreme caution. As a result, arrested suspects were driven one by one into the police station at Brock and Kingston Rds., and were taken into the underground garage for processing. Unmarked police cars lined up outside the door, with one car being allowed in approximately every 15 minutes.
> 
> As armed police officers stood guard on the streets and around the building, Toronto Star photographers photographed their every move.
> 
> Proof is the photos of the arrests and suspects posted to the Star’s Web site within minutes of a RCMP media release and the photos published in the Toronto Star’s Saturday edition.
> 
> The entire investigation, which predated the arrests by two years, was conducted in absolute secrecy. Canada’s Prime Minister Stephen Harper did not know that the raid was to take place on Friday, June 2, nor says Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty did he.
> 
> But somebody spilled the beans that could have jeopardized the covert operation.
> 
> Toronto Mayor David Miller knew. In his own words, he was apprised of the incident as early as last January,
> 
> "Meanwhile, Toronto Mayor David Miller revealed that Police Chief Bill Blair had kept him informed of the terror plot since January." (www.ctv.ca, June 3, 2006).
> 
> "I was extremely concerned about the potential existence of this organization," Miller told the CBC.
> 
> "Asked if he knew when the group planned to attack, Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair replied that he did without elaborating." (Globe & Mail, Monday, June 5, 2006).
> 
> The result of Miller, his handpicked chief of police Bill Blair or a combination of both spoon-feeding the story to the Toronto Star is that coverage of the foiled terrorist attack was decidedly one-sided.
> 
> The happenstance of the Star getting the story to the exclusion of all other media outlets was not lost on the New York Times.
> 
> In a June 4 Time’s story by Ian Austen, the timing of The Star coverage was pinpointed.
> 
> …"Minutes after the Royal Canadian Mounted Police issued a cryptic press release at 9:16 p.m. about a news conference set for the following morning, The Star’s Web site produced a story breaking the news of the police sweep.
> 
> "Nor did The Star, Canada’s largest newspaper by circulation make any attempt at modesty," Austen wrote. "Underneath a main headline in type several inches high, another headline boasted that "The Star takes you inside the spy game that led to last night’s dramatic arrests." "
> 
> Reporter Michelle Shepard who broke The Star story indicated that her information came from "sources" and "community sources",
> 
> The Star’s competition was taken by surprise. Perhaps none more so that the tabloid Toronto Sun, which had earlier run a story claiming that Toronto’s subway network was on the terrorists’ target list. In spite of an abundance of American intelligence reports indicating otherwise, the only information about bomb targets officials offered one day after the raid was to refute the Sun’s claims.
> 
> "When asked how The Star managed to so outflank its competition, Stephen Meurice, the managing editor for news, replied, "I can’t possibly tell you." (New York Times, June 4, 2006).
> 
> "The answer, said Giles Gherson, The Star’s editor in chief, was mainly hard work by a single reporter."
> 
> That reporter was Michelle Shephard, a police reporter, assigned to cover national security issues.
> 
> Shephard was on Star staff when several years ago the daily newspaper ran a series of investigative stories accusing Toronto police of racial profiling.
> 
> The Toronto Police Union hired lawyer Tim Danson and sued The Star for libel. The case was later thrown out of court.
> 
> Animosity between Toronto Police and The Star, which continues to the present day, peaked when David Miller and his council declined to renew former Police Chief Julian Fantino contract, choosing Bill Blair as his replacement.
> 
> From the outset the liberal leading Toronto Star has reported on the terror suspects in a politically correct fashion. On Saturday, the suspects were described in a front-page story as being caught between two cultures.
> 
> If David Miller, criticized for not doing anything about Toronto’s increasing street crime in an election year is trying to micromanage the news by giving The Star exclusivity on last week’s police raid, the public should hold him accountable.
> 
> Nobody should be able to micromanage the news when the subject at hand is international terrorism.



As a side note, I don't know if anyone else caught the Senate Review of the new terrorism bill with Vic Toews and Stockwell Day but both men I thought did a wonderful job of covering the threat and how it needed to be dealt with during their approximate 5 minute individual introductions.  What destroyed me was the first senator to ask a question on the subject was Senator Mobina Jaffer (Lib - Female).  Her question was as follows (paraphrased): "The previous government was in the process of introducing a landmark initiative to attack racism and eliminate racial profiling from all government security activities.  What will your government do ensure that our minorities are guaranteed safety from such bigotry."

Hmmm.....potentially 5 tonnes of explosive in concert with a rifle attack was being planned to be used to kill hundreds if not thousands of Canadians, most members went to the same mosques most likely funded by Saudi money and her question is on racial profiling and racism?

I just about put my remote through my TV screen....these useful idiots are going to get us all killed.


Matthew.


----------



## geo

watching the tube today,
Cdn muslim leaders published and broadcasted a "fatwah"(sp?) that basicaly instructed all good muslims (are there any other kind) to protect their country of residence and NOT to take up arms / beligerance.

Wonder how well it is being received in Canada (and across the world)

(will try to track down copy of text..........)


----------



## geo

Obey your country's laws, Iraqi cleric urges Muslims

Last Updated Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:52:26 EDT

CBC News 

Iraq's top Shia cleric sent a message Wednesday to Muslims in Western nations, urging them to obey the laws of the countries in which they live.

The fatwa, a non-binding directive, was delivered at a Montreal news conference of prominent Shia Muslims on behalf of Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

"Muslims have undertaken to obey the laws of the country of their residence and thus they must be faithful to that undertaking," the statement read.

It condemned all acts of violence and encouraged imams to keep a watchful eye on what's going on inside their mosques.

A fatwa is a legal opinion or ruling issued by an Islamic scholar.

Muslims are not bound to obey it, but many will if they are comfortable with its content, said freelance journalist  Zuhair Kashmeri.

The fatwa was drafted in response to the arrests earlier this month of 17 people connected to a bomb plot investigation in southern Ontario. Police allege some of the suspects were inspired by al-Qaeda and its attacks on Western targets.

Jamal Badawi, an Islamic scholar at St. Mary's University, said a number of similar fatwas have been issued in recent years.

"It's nothing new, but I'm very glad it attracted the attention of the media," Badawi said. "Muslims have been speaking loud enough, but no one's listening."

Tarek Fatah, founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, said it's encouraging that clerics would promote obedience to the rule of law, but disappointing that the message needs to come through a fatwa.

"It's so medieval to be thinking … religious dictates should govern how we live our lives," said Fatah.

He said he doesn't doubt the group's sincerity, but that Canadian Muslims shouldn't be governed from overseas.

"He should not be telling me how to behave," said Fatah, who said al-Sistani has issued earlier fatwas saying gays and lesbians should be killed.


----------



## GAP

I may have missed it in this thread, but I was reading today in either G & M or CTV website, that CSIS approached the parents of some of the 17 arrested and warned them that their children were being influenced.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

I don't know how long it takes for a transcript to come out, or a video link, but there is a CBC special on right now (called Your Turn? )about Islam in Canada.  It has been an excellent learning tool, and it looks like several Imam's are stepping up and declaring with no qualified statements that there is no excuse for causing violence here in North America.  Very encouraging to see the leadership being vocal, however they are taking questions and comments from the audience, and there is a disturbing trend in the youth to justify their "anger" and are pretty much saying that anything they do is as a result of being so terribly marginalized by Canada.


----------



## aluc

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1152222610978&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News 	



I wanted to post this article in the  "National security forces arrest 17 in Toronto raids " thread but it appears to be locked. Maybe the mods could move this to that thread if possible.

Accused terrorists' families supply drama
Jul. 7, 2006. 06:40 AM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD AND SAN GREWAL
STAFF REPORTERS

The rooftop police snipers and hordes of reporters may be gone, but the family and legal drama surrounding the 17 accused members of a local terrorist cell continues to unfold inside and outside a Brampton courtroom.

It involves their wives and a connection to the daughter of a reputed Al Qaeda financier, their bewildered children confused by the handcuffs and shackles, and the parents of the younger suspects, who shake their heads as government lawyers outline the case.

Then there are some of the suspects' wives and friends, who refuse to stand as the justice of the peace or the judge enters and exits the courtroom — a customary practice announced by the court clerk. This has created an obvious tension, and at some point a judge may decide to confront the spectators' seeming disrespect for court etiquette.

Two unfailingly polite court officers, who have been present for all of the hearings since the men's arrests June 2, have spoken with the women and some of the suspects' young friends, but still many refuse to stand. Some exceptions have been made, such as last Monday, when it appeared that the wife of 43-year-old suspect Qayyum Abdul Jamal might have been breast-feeding under her full-length robe, making it difficult to rise for the judge.

Five weeks have passed since the dramatic Friday night arrests of what Canada's security services are calling a "homegrown" terrorist group that was allegedly planning to bomb and attack southern Ontario targets. During that time, two of the teenaged suspects have been refused bail, and the remaining men have made numerous court appearances to set dates for upcoming hearings.

A bail hearing for 20-year-old Amin Mohamed Durrani began yesterday.

On the stand as the government's witness at Durrani's hearing, as in past cases, was a detective who works with the RCMP-led anti-terrorism unit. The Crown, posing questions to the officer, took the court through more than three hours of evidence, which included pictures and videos.

It was an extensive presentation, one not often given at a bail hearing — especially since it's a serious offence, meaning the onus is on the defence to convince the judge why a suspect should be released, not on the Crown to argue for detention.

With a customary publication ban prohibiting the media from reporting on the evidence or information presented against individual suspects at the hearings, the accused are often portrayed as a group of suspected terrorists without distinctions being made among them.

But outside Brampton's Courtroom 107, there is a clear distinction between many of the relatives — both philosophically and in whom they associate with. And some lawyers have said they'll request that their clients' bail hearings be held separately in an attempt to distinguish among the seriousness of the allegations.

The parents of most of the youths, who cannot be identified under a law protecting those who were under 18 at the time of their alleged crimes, do not seem to know the relatives of the adult suspects. They huddle with their lawyers and most politely decline interview requests from reporters.

Among the relatives of the adult suspects, there's a distinction as well.

The wives of Zakaria Amara and Fahim Ahmad, who were allegedly the leaders of two factions in the group, often appear together with Jamal's wife, Cheryfa MacAuley Jamal, and Zaynab Khadr, the eldest child of Osama bin Laden associate Ahmed Said Khadr, who was killed in October 2003 during a fight with Pakistani forces.

Jamal and Khadr seem to dispense advice to the group. "Do not speak to them," Jamal was overheard telling the other women waiting outside the courtroom last week, as she wagged her finger at a group of journalists. "They'll twist your words and lie."

Khadr sometimes darts in and out of the courtroom with fussy children of the accused, so that the wives don't have to leave the proceedings. During one hearing, she took Amara's daughter outside to settle her down, after his wife had held the child aloft and she cried "Dada Dada," upon seeing her shackled father in the prisoner's dock.

The wives are not on trial, but they have received much attention since the disclosure last week of Internet postings they made before their husbands' arrests. They talked of their passion for holy war, hatred of Canada and their sympathy for the Khadr family, The Globe and Mail reported.

Members of the Khadr family have been criticized since returning to Canada due to their public statements in support of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States and admitted family ties to bin Laden.

Zaynab Khadr returned to Toronto last year, following her mother, Maha Elsamnah. Four of the six Khadr children are now living in two Scarborough apartments. (The eldest son, Abdullah, is in a Toronto jail fighting his extradition to the U.S., where he faces terrorism-related charges. Omar, 19, is Canada's only detainee in the U.S. internment camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.)

Zaynab was met at the airport by RCMP officers when she returned to Toronto in February 2005, and the Mounties seized her luggage. As part of the sworn information used to obtain a search warrant for the 26-year-old's possessions, an RCMP investigator wrote, "I believe that Zaynab Khadr has willingly participated and contributed both directly and indirectly towards enhancing the ability of Al Qaeda to facilitate its criminal activities." The allegations remain unproven and Khadr has never been charged either in Canada or abroad.

There are many months to go before any of the 17 accused will face trial — and there's the potential that some may testify against the others. Their trials are likely again to hit the world stage, similar to the frenzied attention given to the arrests last month.

One defence lawyer has suggested that he will apply to allow cameras into the courtroom.





The total lack of decorum displayed by these ladies is astounding. It appear they have no respect for anything our nation holds dear. Hold on....actually they already admitted that didn't they?  But hey, who wants to go there again.


----------



## paracowboy

okay, I think I got most of the crap out of this thread now. Let's try to keep it that way. 
Re-opened.


----------



## geo

Octavianus said:
			
		

> h
> The wives are not on trial, but they have received much attention since the disclosure last week of Internet postings they made before their husbands' arrests. They talked of their passion for holy war, hatred of Canada and their sympathy for the Khadr family, The Globe and Mail reported.



I'm confused.  If they hate Canada... why are they still here?
Is it that they hate their home country even more?
If they really want to leave, I am willing to contribute to their airfare outa here.
Only string attached would be the proviso that they do not come back for any reason whatsoever.... (EI, Welfare, Pension, Medicare, etc)


----------



## zipperhead_cop

geo said:
			
		

> I'm confused.  If they hate Canada... why are they still here?
> Is it that they hate their home country even more?
> If they really want to leave, I am willing to contribute to their airfare outa here.
> Only string attached would be the proviso that they do not come back for any reason whatsoever.... (EI, Welfare, Pension, Medicare, etc)



Surely you must be familiar with the concept of a foreward recce element?  There are hundreds of people in the country who are planted here to either set up support networks or generate cash to send back home to support terrorism.  These types hate all western culture, so we shouldn't really take it too personally as Canadians.  They think all of us suck.  
Plus, many of them would face prosecution and execution back home if they were sent.  Since Canada Immigration is so hung up with that concept, those are their own good enough grounds to support a refugee claim.  Refugee power is far greater than anti-terrorism power.  
Have fun in a large urban setting near you.


----------



## geo

(grumble...........)


----------



## aluc

> Have fun in a large urban setting near you.



All the more reasons for me to add to my list as to why I think I want to leave Toronto, and move up north, or east. MY list is getting larger by the week!


----------



## The Bread Guy

The usual suspects are at it again....

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/07/canada-anti-terror-law-discriminates.php

A lawyer representing one of 17 Canadians arrested on terror charges in June argued Monday in an Ontario court that Canada's anti-terror legislation discriminates because it focuses only on "brown" Muslim and Arab groups and excludes "white" groups such as the Ku Klux Klan. Rocco Galati asked that the bail hearing for his client, Ahmad Ghany be held in front of a Superior Court Justice instead of a justice of the peace because the justice of the peace cannot address issues arising under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms issues.....


----------



## zipperhead_cop

The KKK are a bunch of losers, but I don't think they quite qualify as terrorists, do they?  However, if it will shut up Galati, I am all for including them in the definition.


----------



## aluc

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1152741017173&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home



Mounties had mole in alleged terror cell
Exclusive:
Law prohibits publication of prominent member of Muslim community
Jul. 13, 2006. 05:23 AM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD
STAFF REPORTER

A well-known member of Toronto's Muslim community worked as a police agent to infiltrate an alleged terrorism cell that police say was planning attacks in Canada, the Toronto Star has learned.

Although his identity is now known within the community and also to some of the 17 terrorism suspects arrested June 2, his name cannot be published due to Canadian laws.

Sources say the man worked for the Canadian Security and Intelligence Service, and then became a paid RCMP agent once a criminal investigation was launched.

It's an offence under the Witness Protection Program Act to disclose the name of an RCMP agent.

While the names of sources in national security cases are often protected, this witness has agreed to testify in open court when his identity will be made public, sources say.

His name has not been revealed during court proceedings now underway to determine if any of the 17 accused will be released on bail. A publication ban prevents the reporting of any evidence heard during the bail hearings.

When contacted by the Star, the police agent said he did not want to talk about the case, saying that "justice should be served," and he looked forward to testifying in court.

Last month the Star revealed the involvement of a second police agent in the case, who allegedly took part in the delivery of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate. Police claim seven of the suspects were involved in the alleged plot to use the fertilizer to create truck bombs destined for targets in southern Ontario.

Since police were aware of the alleged purchase, they arranged for the switch of ammonium nitrate for a harmless substance before delivery, sources said.

Twelve adults and five youths have been charged with belonging to what police call a "homegrown" terrorist cell. Most of the suspects are Canadians and under the age of 25.

It's alleged that the group split earlier this year into two smaller sections. One group allegedly consisted of suspects who lived west of Toronto and were led by Zakaria Amara. Police have charged six of the adult suspects and one youth in the alleged plot to blow up targets in Toronto and elsewhere in the province.

The other group was allegedly led by 21-year-old Scarborough resident Fahim Ahmed, who allegedly rented a car for two other suspects who were caught last August bringing guns and ammunition into Canada from the U.S.

The involvement of hired agents in the case shows that undercover moles are now being used in terrorism cases in Canada — a common technique used in organized crimes investigations and increasingly in domestic security cases worldwide.

`The investigative techniques aren't new.

But the application for terrorism is.'

Mike McDonnell, RCMP Assistant Commissioner

The fact that the police agent who allegedly infiltrated the group worked for both CSIS and the RCMP seems to suggest a new level of co-operation between the two agencies that have been beset by turf wars in the past.

With the agents' involvement also comes a series of legal questions, likely to be posed by defence lawyers representing the 17 suspects.

What is the credibility of the agents? Why did they agree to work for police? How involved were they in the alleged planning of the attacks?

"It's going to depend on the disclosure and what role the operative played," says Paul Copeland, an experienced Toronto criminal lawyer and police watchdog, who is representing one of the 17 accused.

"The issue that could arise is the potential of entrapment. It's not appropriate for police to encourage a crime and then arrest those suspected of committing that crime."

It's an issue that has confronted prosecutors in international cases that involved police agents or undercover officers.

Australia's first terrorism trial ended in an acquittal last year after jurors heard that a police agent working for the country's spy service, and posing as a journalist, had offered 21-year-old terrorism suspect Zek Mallah $3,000 for a videotape of him uttering threats against government buildings. In acquitting him of the terrorism charges, the jury concluded that Mallah was not a terrorist, but a troubled orphan full of bravado.

The involvement of an FBI informant in case of seven Miami men charged with terrorism offences two weeks ago has been criticized by some of the defence lawyers who argue that the agent had concocted part of the case.

The men are accused of plotting to blow up Chicago's Sears Tower and federal buildings in five cities, and of having ties to Al Qaeda. Lawyer Nathan Clark told the New York Times that his client was "induced by the government," calling the case one of "entrapment."

But the involvement of an undercover officer and informant in a New York case led to a conviction this May and was trumpeted as a milestone in the city's fight against terrorism.

The trial of Shahawar Matin Siraj, convicted of plotting to blow up a subway station, revealed that an Egyptian-born police officer and undercover agent were instrumental in the case.

RCMP Assistant Commissioner Mike McDonnell said yesterday that he could not speak specifically about the Toronto terrorism case but noted that the use of police informers was not unique in Canadian criminal law and have been used successfully in past organized crime cases.

What makes the case unique is the fact that terrorism offences were introduced to Canada's criminal code in 2001, bringing the Mounties back into security, a field from which they had been ousted two decades earlier with the creation of CSIS.

"The investigative techniques aren't new," McDonnell said in an interview. "But the application for terrorism is."


----------



## tamouh

> A well-known member of Toronto's Muslim community worked as a police agent to infiltrate an alleged terrorism cell that police say was planning attacks in Canada, the Toronto Star has learned.



The CBC has actually showed an interview with the person and The Fifth Estate is preparing a programming with more interviews and details with the infiltrator.

This is one example of the many things the Muslim community has been doing to deny terrorists the privilege to use Islam as a name for their own agenda.


----------



## George Wallace

tamouh said:
			
		

> This is one example of the many things the Muslim community has been doing to deny terrorists the privilege to use Islam as a name for their own agenda.



Nice sentiment, but I think you played on words a little there.  I do think that the Canadian Government is responsible, not the Muslim community.  I think that you are giving credit where credit may not necessarily be due.  It is good that this has been permitted to happen, but I seriously think that it was done without much knowledge of the Muslim community.  

It would be a credit if they were doing this, or even started to do this, but I highly doubt that they have the 'will' to actually do it at this time.  Perhaps this will be the event that opens some of their eyes to what is happening, but as you can see in the courts, there still is a lot of denial in that community.


----------



## tamouh

> Nice sentiment, but I think you played on words a little there.  I do think that the Canadian Government is responsible, not the Muslim community.  I think that you are giving credit where credit may not necessarily be due.  It is good that this has been permitted to happen, but I seriously think that it was done without much knowledge of the Muslim community.



I think you need to watch the interview, and the fifth estate report once it is broadcasted because you certainly don't know how this incident have progressed. While credit is always given to the enforcement agencies, few here always talked about the "missing contribution" from Muslims. This is a further prove to the MAJOR contribution of Muslims in this society. 

Though I disagree that the infiltrator had revealed his identity because it will put him and the whole investigation at risk, I do however believe he shares many of the same thoughts of many Muslims who contribute on daily basis in combating terrorism and criminal acts in this country that some people do not appreciate the value the Muslim community brings to this society. 

It is difficult to be called a terrorist in the street and yet expect people to cooperate....but here is one of many examples to come that Muslims ignore these little voices of no reason to better everyone living in this country and beyond.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

So your saying whoopee, look at us, for something that they should have been doing all along? When they're demonstrating in the streets against the terrorists after an attack and burning up the tips line when someone even jokes about doing something, when they stop funneling money to the madras, then you can come here and say what a great thing they're doing. So far the few that are doing the above deserve a lot of praise, but there's not enough of them.


----------



## tamouh

> So your saying whoopee, look at us, for something that they should have been doing all along? When they're demonstrating in the streets against the terrorists after an attack and burning up the tips line when someone even jokes about doing something, when they stop funneling money to the madras, then you can come here and say what a great thing they're doing. So far the few that are doing the above deserve a lot of praise, but there's not enough of them.



You can put twists on things all you want. The way I see it, there are people on the left, people on the right and people who don't want anything to do with either side.

Few here said Muslims were not doing enough, I kept saying there are many things being done and more can be done for sure, but don't expect people coming out in crowds saying we all want to be "spies". The few have always to do the job of the many, and that is how life goes so accept it for what it is.


----------



## George Wallace

I think what he is trying to say, and convince us, which I don't see happening, is that someone........let's say 'recceguy'......decided that it was immoral what a group in his 'community' were up to, so this guy (recceguy) went to CISIS and offered his services.  He then went back to his 'community' and infiltrated this group.  He passed the info on to CISIS and then they brought in the RCMP and he became a paid Police Informant.  No one in the 'community' knows that 'recceguy' is a Police Informant.  Now that arrests are made, because 'recceguy' was a member of that community, the community is responsible for turning these guys in.  I think that is his flawed logic.

I don't buy into that.  It is the morals of one individual, not the community, that are to be commended here.


----------



## Cloud Cover

I've seen some of the interview, a ton of the documentation and I do know a little bit about this man.

From a LE perspective, he seemed to be reliable but only to a limited point. Most of the LEA's that have been involved have been divided on just who was handling/managing who. In my view, I'm in the camp where his motivations are not honorable unless you are a Muslim. Listen carefully to this guy and read between the lines and you will hear him say as much. This guy could 2 give shits about Canada, even though he was born here. It was all about protecting the impact on the religion and the preserving the Muslim community, never about protection of innocent Canadians or standing up against the evil that threatens our country from within. He's a witness, and he is going to be torn to pieces on the stand. People of interest and interested people are going to make sure of that.   

And  'tamouh' -  ....


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I'm not saying for them to all come out and say "I want to be a spy". I want them to pour out into the street and denounce terrorism. Prove that they are not with them, but with us. They are to quiet whenever anything happens and it only adds to the mistrust.


----------



## tamouh

> George:
> No one in the 'community' knows that 'recceguy' is a Police Informant.  Now that arrests are made, because 'recceguy' was a member of that community, the community is responsible for turning these guys in.  I think that is his flawed logic.



Again, George....go watch the interviews and wait for the fifth estate report , you have no idea what you're talking about because many community leaders were aware of this operation.



> whisky601:
> From a LE perspective, he seemed to be reliable but only to a limited point. Most of the LEA's that have been involved have been divided on just who was handling/managing who. In my view, I'm in the camp where his motivations are not honorable unless you are a Muslim. Listen carefully to this guy and read between the lines and you will hear him say as much. This guy could 2 give shits about Canada, even though he was born here. It was all about protecting the impact on the religion and the preserving the Muslim community, never about protection of innocent Canadians or standing up against the evil that threatens our country from within. He's a witness, and he is going to be torn to pieces on the stand. People of interest and interested people are going to make sure of that.



He choose what he wanted to do and he made the right decision, Muslims and Canadians appreciate that. He has done this for all of us and not for selfish desires. Otherwise, he would have became rich, asked for witness protection and living somewhere happily ever after. In your point, you're saying there is no satisfying to your quest.



> recce:
> I'm not saying for them to all come out and say "I want to be a spy". I want them to pour out into the street and denounce terrorism. Prove that they are not with them, but with us. They are to quiet whenever anything happens and it only adds to the mistrust.



Seriously, why don't Canadians in general organize a anti-terrorism protest and I guarantee you the Muslim community will be at the head of the march. Don't square the blame on a group if you're not willing to act yourself.


----------



## George Wallace

tamouh said:
			
		

> Again, George....go watch the interviews and wait for the fifth estate report , you have no idea what you're talking about because many community leaders were aware of this operation.


tamouh

I am tired of your blindered look on the world.  

Bye.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

It must be wonderful to be you, going through life with such a naive and simplistic view of the world. A world where everyones your friend, and they all believe in your point of view. I give up talking to you. Your just like every other zealot I've met. Reasoned arguement has no place in your platitudes. When it doesn't suit your cause, you just skip over the opposing point, misconstrue it, or completely avoid it by deflecting the conversation elsewhere. Good night to you, I've wasted enough time here with you already.


----------



## 1feral1

George Wallace said:
			
		

> tamouh
> 
> I am tired of your blindered look on the world.
> 
> Bye.



You're not the only one George, lets just give him the rope he needs.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Here's a thought:
If the Muslim community is so benign, and is so well integrated into Canadian society, then why is this informant being afforded the full protection one would expect for someone who is being sought by organized crime?  According to Tamouh, the percentage of bad Islamists in Canada is smaller than Anglophone-only Bloc members.  So why wouldn't the informant be embraced by the swell of protection that can only come from a culture that is so heady with the love of their country?  
Surely, this man won't face any derisive comments when he strides into the mosque to pray with his brothers?  
But of course his family need not fear repercussion, since the presence of organized terrorism is only a paper tiger that the Neo-Cons invented in order to appease GWB and his Crusade war on terror?
And obviously, the man will be honoured at some sort of dinner function for his contribution to the well being of Islam, and the betterment of Islamic Canadians everywhere.  
Right?  
 ABOUT WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT 


 :


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

tamouh said:
			
		

> Again, George....go watch the interviews and wait for the fifth estate report , you have no idea what you're talking about because many community leaders were aware of this operation.



Tamouh,
I can appreciate you wanting to defend your community/religon/point of view however this quote of yours above is a blatant fabrication either on your part, or from a source you saw/heard.  That is not the way these things operate......EVER.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Tamouh,
> I can appreciate you wanting to defend your community/religon/point of view however this quote of yours above is a blatant fabrication either on your part, or from a source you saw/heard.  That is not the way these things operate......EVER.



I think he means that they were aware of the terrorist operation, which would make sense since it was clearly something that was being organized through the mosque.  That is the complacency that we have all been talking about.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

I think he was trying to assert that the communitiy leaders knew about the infiltration..........and you and I both know that wouldn't happen.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I think he was trying to assert that the community leaders knew about the infiltration..........and you and I both know that wouldn't happen.



Oh, well then... :rofl:

Hoo, Tamouh.  You can be quite the rapier wit!!


----------



## probum non poenitet

If the Toronto Star is accurate in its reporting (IF being the magic word these days) I greatly admire the courage of this unnamed fellow to go undercover as he did.

It seems that he put his life on the line and continues to do so for the safety of fellow Canadians ... I admire that.

I don't know much about the secret squirrel world and their wars, but guts is guts. Thanks to him and people like him.


----------



## aluc

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1152827412841&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home


Informer wanted to protect Canada
Describes role in terror case
No stranger to controversy
Jul. 14, 2006. 08:26 AM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD
STAFF REPORTER

Mubin Shaikh, a well-known and sometimes controversial figure in Toronto's Muslim community, says he decided to become an undercover police agent and infiltrate an alleged terrorism cell to protect Canada, the country of his birth.

Shaikh went public yesterday about his role as a paid informant, a day after the Toronto Star broke the story of his involvement in the investigation into an alleged "homegrown" terrorist group.

The Star story did not identify him by name due to provisions of the Witness Protection Program Act that make it an offence to disclose the identity of a police agent.

But Shaikh said yesterday he has declined an offer by police to enter the program that would have given him a new identity and moved his family out of the city. The 30-year-old said his decision to break his silence came after he was inundated with calls from the Muslim community encouraging him to do so.

His role was widely known throughout the community since he was often seen with the suspects, but was not arrested June 2 in the massive police raids.

In an interview with the Star yesterday he said he wanted to "take control of the story" and describe his motivation for getting involved with Canada's spy service and federal police force.

"I wanted to prevent the loss of life," he said.

"There are no combatants on the downtown streets of Toronto," he said concerning the allegations now facing 17 suspects arrested June 2.

"I don't want Canadians to think that these (suspects) are what Muslims are. I don't believe in violence here. I wanted to help and I'm as homegrown as it gets."

Shaikh, who was born in Toronto and was a decorated Royal Canadian Army Cadet as a teenager, said he became devoted to Islam about 10 years ago.

He said he supports the jihad in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not attacks on civilians at home.

The RCMP alleges that the 17 terrorism suspects arrested last month formed a group whose goals included bombing targets in southern Ontario.

Shaikh said he first approached Canada's spy service in 2004 after the arrest of Mohammad Momin Khawaja, the first person in Canada to be charged with criminal terrorism offences. Shaikh knew Khawaja and his family and offered CSIS help.

Last year, he said he was asked by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service to try to infiltrate the Toronto group, which had been under surveillance, by befriending alleged leader Fahim Ahmed.

Once he gained Ahmed's trust, Shaikh said he met other members of the group and helped lead what police allege was a "training camp" last December. Police allege members of the camp — located in a Washago, Ont., field — dressed in camouflage, used guns for target practice, and sources said they taped a video used to recruit others.

During the time last fall that he worked undercover for CSIS, and then the RCMP, Shaikh became an internationally controversial figure in his public life.

`I don't believe in violence here. I wanted to help ...'

Mubin Shaikh, undercover police agent

Shaikh was the province's most vocal advocate for allowing the use of sharia law, a set of Muslim rules and guidelines, to settle family law matters under Ontario's arbitration act.

A picture of him jostling with a female protestor outside Queen's Park was carried worldwide. The province eventually decided to outlaw binding religious arbitration.

Shaikh is also the multicultural chair for Liberal MP Alan Tonks' York South-Weston riding association.

His biography on Tonks' website reads: "Traveller, philosopher, theologian, Mubin Shaikh is not your ordinary Torontonian. At first look, one might think they've encountered an extremist but on second take, you realize you've been had!"

Tonks said he has had a 10-year relationship with Shaikh and his father.

"Mubin just articulates that sort of loyalty to the country, that acts of terrorism that have occurred are aberrations to their concept of (Islam)," Tonks said in an interview yesterday.

"His overall loyalty to the country is unquestionable."

While he didn't know Shaikh was involved with police, he said he was not surprised he would offer to help authorities.

Others question his motivation.

Echoing concerns raised by lawyers for the 17 suspects of entrapment, they question whether he instigated any of the alleged terrorist plans.

"This is like the pot calling the kettle black because Mr. Mubin Shaikh has been the exponent of Islamic extremism in this city.

``He has been the number one proponent of the imposition of sharia law in Canada, has been extremely hostile to all moderate Muslims, which calls into question whether he's acting out of sincerity or is he trying to fish himself out of his own troubles," Tarek Fatah, co-founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, said yesterday.

Scarborough imam Aly Hindy, himself often accused of being an extremist, also questioned Shaikh's involvement.

"I don't think his role was just to inform what was happening, he was making things happen," Hindy said.

"There's a big difference between when you see something wrong and you inform the authorities and when you start actually inciting things to happen."

Shaikh said the case was conducted "by the book," and that he looked forward to testifying when cases for those charged reach trial.

That's when he should be judged, he said.







> He said he supports the jihad in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not attacks on civilians at home.


Hold on, so he supports the death of our soldiers as well as our allies.



> His overall loyalty to the country is unquestionable


His loyalty to our country is unwaivering, yet he endorses the jihad against our country and its allies. Is this not paradoxical, or is it so early in the morning that I'm not reading the article properly?


----------



## probum non poenitet

Well, now don't I feel like a twit for calling him a decent fellow.


----------



## CanadaPhil

tamouh said:
			
		

> ..........Seriously, why don't Canadians in general organize a anti-terrorism protest and I guarantee you the Muslim community will be at the head of the march.



We did. 

They are marching in Afghanistan right now


----------



## CanadaPhil

tamouh said:
			
		

> Again, George....go watch the interviews and wait for the fifth estate report , you have no idea what you're talking about because many community leaders were aware of this operation.
> 
> He choose what he wanted to do and he made the right decision, Muslims and Canadians appreciate that.



Hmmm....Well one MAJOR community leader who apppears NOT to have been aware of the operation, and who DOES NOT appear to apprieciate it was Aly Hindy.

This is very curious considering he appears to be the major mouthpiece for Muslims in Ontario, if not the nation. He is a regular on the CBC and TVO's Studio 2. Among other things, he was/is one of the major propopents of Sharia courts in Canada. 

What is also curious is that Mr. Hindy is the Imam of the Salaheddin Mosque in Scarborough, and claims to personally know more than half of those charged, and has also openly stated that he is a personal friend of the Khadr family. He also claims total ignorance of Jihadi terrorist recruitment DVD's being handed out in his parking lot from the trunks of cars. 

And now, it looks like Mr. Hindy is claiming that the informant is in fact the instigator. 

Ahhhh, will wonders ever cease.


----------



## 1feral1

Octavianus said:
			
		

> He said he supports the jihad in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not attacks on civilians at home.



Right or wrong, its your government, but one should always support the troops. This guy wants them DEAD!

Having an opinion on our politics is one thing, but this is way over the top!

Another waste of rations, and a cancer on western society and our way of life. What is he going to educate his children? This re-ignites my question, why do they come here in droves?

Personally, I find it totally disgusting and UN-CANADIAN that someone is for and SUPPORTS not only the death of Canadian soldiers, but other allied soldiers also. 

Supporting such should end with deportation!

He publically says this and lives in your country, Canada! 

We as Canadains are accepting people, freedom of speech and all, but this is unacceptable behaviour, full stop! I'd like to see him confront a few friends and family members of fallen soldiers, and have him put in his place!

We know where is loyalties are. So does CSIS and the Mounties.

Shame on him.

Anyone who sticks up or defends this spineless jellyfish of a so called 'person' is just as bad.


Wes


----------



## tamouh

> He said he supports the jihad in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not attacks on civilians at home



Where you are getting this BS from ? I see no quote supporting that argument and as far as I know that person went exclusively to CBC with the story, so anyone quoting or spreading the story are all sourcing from CBC.

I've seen the interview, read the articles and there is NOTHING about him saying he supports jihad in afghanistan and iraq. The only comment in that regard was prior to his involvement he had ideas that jihad in afghanistan, chechnya and iraq is a duty....but he continued on to explain how he progressed from that stage of "lost" to what he did.

This is the CBC article, and wait for The Fifth Estate report:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/toronto-bomb-plot/shaikh.html


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
_He said he supports the jihad in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not attacks on civilians at home._

I agree with Tamouh, we have seen first-hand how the press warps things, unless we see this type of statement in quotation marks or an audio/video recording, then its grain of salt time folks.


----------



## Yrys

On the link provided by Tamouh :

"I remember specifically being at that stage where I was ready to go to Chechnya, I was ready to go to Afghanistan. I wanted to do some jihad-oriented thing," he said. "But I was lucky that I was exposed to people who I could talk to, who could correct my understanding."

So he never moved on his jihad convictions and was talked out of it... quite contrasting with 

''He said he supports the jihad in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not attacks on civilians at home.''


----------



## GAP

Khawaja had guns in house
trial: Ottawa man had cellphone jammer, books on jihad, British court told
Wednesday, July 19, 2006 Ottawa Citizen
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=1785c6ae-74dc-41b3-9dd0-ce7ff83016d7

Ian MacLeod and Sarah Knapton, The Ottawa Citizen; The Central News agency, London.
Published: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 
Police discovered guns, ammunition, electrical components and books on terrorism and jihad during a raid on the Ottawa home of accused terrorist Momin Khawaja, a British court was told yesterday.

The prosecution evidence emerged at the London trial of seven British men charged with conspiring to bomb sites in and around London, including nightclubs, trains and a major shopping centre.

British authorities allege Mr. Khawaja, 27, played a "vital role" in the suspected plot by making remote-controlled detonators to be used to explode bombs constructed from 600 kilograms of ammonium nitrate fertilizer the group allegedly acquired.

Though he is named as a conspirator in the case, Mr. Khawaja has not been charged by British authorities with any crime.

Instead, he is to stand trial in Ottawa in January as the first person charged under Canada's Anti-Terrorism Act.
More on link


----------



## aluc

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1153260642998&call_pageid=970599119419


Canada's terror laws weak: FBI chief
Mueller says tougher sentencing will prevent `havens'
Conference stresses co-operation between U.S. and Canada
Jul. 19, 2006. 05:55 AM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD
STAFF REPORTER

Canada's laws are too weak to deal with terrorism, the head of the Federal Bureau of Investigation says.

FBI Director Robert Mueller said yesterday that tougher sentences are needed to encourage suspects to provide intelligence and to prevent the country from becoming a "haven" for terrorist networks.

"Countries that do not afford extended jail time for those who engage in support of material terrorism are opening themselves up in my mind to the possibility that these networks will find a haven from which to operate," Mueller told reporters yesterday at a Toronto conference.

Canada's terrorism laws, introduced in 2001, are now being reviewed in Ottawa and have been criticized by some as compromising civil liberties.

But Mueller says the laws need sharper teeth, like the American terrorism laws that feature a lower threshold of proof and provisions for life sentences. Tough jail sentences not only serve as a general deterrent, but also can be used to bargain cooperation, he argued. "Intelligence comes from those individuals who want to undertake attacks," Mueller said.

"You need to encourage those persons that it's in their best interest to provide that intelligence. If you do not have the laws that will result in substantial incarceration there is not that incentive to provide that intelligence."

The FBI's international training conference, where Mueller addressed more than 2,000 participants last night, was dedicated to strengthening ties between the international police and intelligence community. It's the first time that the conference, held by the FBI's national academy, is being held outside the United States. It wraps up today.

Since 9/11, co-operation between the U.S. and Canada has increased. There are now 10 FBI agents stationed in Canada, two working out of Toronto's U.S. consulate.

But FBI officials were careful to note that the agents have limited authority in Canada.

"Our agents really are, in a sense, diplomats," said Michael Kortan, the bureau's Washington chief of public affairs.

"They come here essentially as a liaison role to work with Canadian services, whether it's law enforcement or security."

Last month's arrest of 17 terrorism suspects allegedly plotting to blow up southern Ontario targets, and with suspected ties to two suspects in the U.S. and others in Europe, was promoted yesterday as an example of international law enforcement collaboration.

But Canada's first major terrorism investigation after 9/11, involving Canadian Maher Arar, who was deported by the U.S. to Syria in 2002, then tortured and held without charges, resulted in a federal inquiry that probed information-sharing agreements and criticism that Canada's relationship with the U.S. was too cozy. The inquiry's report on the Arar affair is expected in September.

When asked what lessons were learned from Arar's case, Mueller said domestic laws must be respected, but that there could be no barriers to the exchange of information.

"It's absolutely essential in this day and age when the terrorists can use modern communication, modern travel and the Internet, that we have the ability to exchange information on threats swiftly."


----------



## paracowboy

Mueller is wrong. We don't need more laws, tougher laws, better-worded laws, or in-laws. We simply need to enforce the ones we already have. Do some crazy shit like, oh....I dunno....punish wrong-doers?


----------



## Gunnar

Now Paracowboy...you're getting all worked up.  If you punish these people ("wrongdoer" implies that you're imposing your value-judgements on these people, please use another term), you'll make them feel excluded from Canadian society, and that would make them sad.  You don't want to make people sad do you?

I think you need more Kum-By-Yah around the campfire, I really do....

 ;D


----------



## GAP

Gunnar said:
			
		

> I think you need more Kum-By-Yah around the campfire, I really do....
> ;D



or soothing ohmms said repeatedly while in the lotus position..


----------



## aluc

Gunnar said:
			
		

> Now Paracowboy...you're getting all worked up.  If you punish these people ("wrongdoer" implies that you're imposing your value-judgements on these people, please use another term), you'll make them feel excluded from Canadian society, and that would make them sad.  You don't want to make people sad do you?
> 
> I think you need more Kum-By-Yah around the campfire, I really do....
> 
> ;D



Oh I get it now.....It's reverse psychology. By not severely punishing violent offenders, they won't re offend because they won't be pissed , and put all the blame for their lack of reason and judgment on the police and society. We shouldn't punish offenders ( or, criminal Sh$tbags, if you will) because that would make them even more disenfranchised with society and the police. Those judges.....crafty swine! By not paying attention to the offenders they won't re offend. Elementary , my dear Watson! 

Speaking of criminals....I just got to  watch two gang members beat the crap of of each other for a whole 2 minutes in the holding cells at my courthouse. Great lunchtime fun I tells ya. We should encourage this and sell tickets. The proceeds can go to the victims of crime who seem to always get the short end of the stick by our "justice" system.


----------



## CanadaPhil

** UPDATE **

August 4th.

A 19 year old from Mississauga, Ontario was also arrested today in connection with this plot (This now makes 18 charged)

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/news/shownews.jsp?content=n080455A


----------



## a_majoor

Real life saga:

http://www.bloggingtories.ca/btFrameset.php?URL=http://pumpkin-watch.blogspot.com/2007/02/little-cell-in-city.html&title=Little%20Cell%20in%20the%20City



> * Little Cell in the City
> *
> Not coming to CBC anytime soon...
> 
> He is a 31-year-old Canadian-born Muslim who disavowed the mosque to fit in with his neighborhood friends, then rejected that life to practice traditional Islam. Later, he used his stature in the Muslim community to infiltrate a suspected terrorist cell, and then helped expose it — an act that alienated him from many in his own circles.
> 
> Shaikh's struggle with identity and loyalty is part of a larger conundrum confronting Western nations with edgy and diverse Islamic populations. He thought his ability to straddle worlds was the answer to quelling the homegrown terrorism that has stunned London, Madrid and now Toronto. But it has only raised more questions.
> 
> The suspected cell's plan, prosecutors said in June, was to explode three truck bombs in front of Toronto police and intelligence headquarters and Parliament Hill, then take politicians hostage and behead them one by one. The group of 18 had acquired 3 tons of what it thought was explosive material when police moved in, authorities say.
> 
> To some, Shaikh is a hero, acting to protect not only Canada but Islam. Others charge that he enabled the plotters instead of acting to stop them, betrayed his brethren and reinforced the image of Muslims as terrorists in this country where more than half a million practice Islam.
> 
> Now he faces death threats, which he doesn't take seriously, and glares and cold shoulders in the mosque, which he does. As preliminary hearings for the suspects begin, the anguished questions revive: Did he do all he could? Was it necessary? Will he survive it?
> 
> Read the rest here.
> 
> Labels: Islamic extremism
> 
> posted by Linda @ 10:39 AM
> 0 Comments:


----------



## geo

From hero to zero in 10 seconds flat.............


----------



## geo

Piper.... It's a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't
keep mum about it, try to talk sense into the radicalized young'uns AND, maybe they cease their activities (and life is wonderful and everyone lives happily ever after) OR maybe they put their plan into effect anyway, the bombs go off, a few heads are lopped off and Islam is branded as a bunch of rabid loonies - and their name is MUD
OR
hang out to dry the muslim community's dirty laundry.  broadcast it over the world & the bombs are made safe, everyone keeps his head - and Islam is branded as a bunch of rabid loonies - and their name is MUD

Hero = Zero in this case


----------



## Teflon

To anyone who glares at this man in the mosque extra, maybe they should think about that, unless they are radicals themselves then in "hanging out to dry the muslim community's dirty laundry" He saved that community of the hate, fear and distrust that would have been the outcome of this cells actions and against Islamic teachings that they assure non-muslims as truth.

He only did what he thought was right for his country and his religion.


----------



## Staff Weenie

Just as a question - at what point does 'radical' or 'extremist' become mainstream?

For example, if one person in 10,000 or 1,000 believe they need to blow up a police station is that radical? Probably.

What if it's one in 10 who believe that violence is an acceptable tool?

What if 1 in 10 tacitly support it through their silence - or by actually inviting inciteful or hateful speakers to a mosque, or allowing them to speak without standing up and protesting or walking out. In Toronto, they were allowing what amounts to hate literature to be distributed at youth gatherings for Muslim men.....

I've not read all the details, but this man stood up and tried to make a difference for the better. And if the people in his mosque think he's a traitor, then perhaps they'd like to book the next flight to Pakistan or Saudi and live there.


----------



## geo

I know that, you know that but..... it still hurts the feelings of those too close to the issue.

C'est la vie!


----------



## edgar

As I understand it, in prisons and criminal gangs being a "rat" is worse than being a rapist. If people in his mosque display a similar attitude, for whatever reason, these people need careful watching. 

Believe it or not, many of Army.ca's readers are in a similar situation (of course less "visibly"). The Oklahoma city bombing made gun-totin rednecks everywhere look bad. No, I'm not trying be a smart-ass. Would I be pissed off if somebody in my church found some sort of aryan nation cell and exposed a plot to blow up a mosque (or more likely a synagogue)? Absolutely, but not at the guy who maybe saved some lives.


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

> and reinforced the image of Muslims as terrorists



Ah yes, the "backlash" argument; so we shall no longer investigate or act to stop suspected terrorist activities where Muslims are involved ... it would encourage racism.


----------



## observor 69

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Real life saga:
> 
> http://www.bloggingtories.ca/btFrameset.php?URL=http://pumpkin-watch.blogspot.com/2007/02/little-cell-in-city.html&title=Little%20Cell%20in%20the%20City



Now "coming from the CBC" let's hear from professional journalists:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/toronto-bomb-plot/shaikh.html

INDEPTH: TORONTO BOMB PLOT
Mubin Shaikh, bomb plot mole

CBC News Online | July 15, 2006


Mubin Shaikh is an observant Muslim and activist for Shariah law in Ontario. He was born in Toronto, the son of immigrant parents who came to Canada in the 1970s. 
He was also a paid police informant who helped infiltrate a group of 17 Muslim men and youth now charged with orchestrating a terrorist plot targeting Toronto and Ottawa. 

On July 13, 2006, Shaikh spoke to Linden McIntyre of CBC's The Fifth Estate. 

Shaikh speaks with the accent and inflection of a young man born and raised in multicultural Toronto, but wears the long beard and grey robes of a devout Muslim. 

Mubin Shaikh spoke exclusively to Linden McIntyre of CBC's The Fifth Estate. (CBC) The contrast between the way he looks and the way he sounds reveals something about the environment where he grew up. 

Shaikh attended public schools in Toronto and as a teenager lived a typical high school life, he said. 

See link for more.


----------



## The_Falcon

shared with the usual proviso

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2008/09/25/6875821.html



> Guilty verdict in Brampton terror trial
> By DON PEAT, Sun Media
> 
> Last Updated: 25th September 2008, 11:14am
> 
> The first member of the "Toronto 18" to stand trial has been found guilty of terrorism charges.
> 
> Superior Court Justice John Sproat read the verdict this morning in Brampton.
> 
> Immediately after reading his finding Sproat said the defence has filed an application charging abuse of process that stays the decision until a December hearing.
> 
> The 20-year-old Scarborough man, arrested as a teen, is the first of the so-called "Toronto 18" to stand trial - and the only young offender.
> 
> Seven, including three other youths, have had their charges stayed. Ten still await trial.
> 
> The Crown had alleged the accused was indoctrinated by one of the group leaders and did his bidding by shoplifting supplies for the two terrorist training camps he attended in Washago in December 2005 and again outside of Guelph about two weeks before the roundup of the accused in June 2006.
> 
> Defence counsel Mitchell Chernovsky had described his client as "naive" and "not street smart" about terrorist activities that were a "jihadi fantasy" of thet group's leader.


----------



## GAP

> Defence counsel Mitchell Chernovsky had described his client as "naive" and "not street smart" about terrorist activities that were a "jihadi fantasy" of thet group's leader



So.....they should get off because they are dumb?.....


----------



## The_Falcon

more from Citynews.ca

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_27245.aspx



> Guilty Verdict In First 'Toronto 18' Terror Trial
> Thursday September 25, 2008
> CityNews.ca Staff
> 
> The first member of the so-called "Toronto 18" to stand trial was found guilty in an alleged plot that authorities claim included plans to bomb buildings in the GTA, storm Parliament and behead the prime minister.
> 
> The man, now 20, can't be named because he was 17 at the time of his arrest, pleaded not guilty to the charges. His lawyers tried to paint the alleged plan as nothing more than mere fantasy, but Ontario Superior Court Justice John Sproat wasn't convinced and handed down a guilty verdict Thursday morning in a Brampton courtroom.
> 
> This trial was the first real test of Canada's new anti-terrorism rules put in place after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States. In his ruling, Sproat said there was no doubt the young man was an active member of the group and was aware of its allegedly deadly goals.
> 
> A wide sweeping publication ban is still in place due to the man's young offender status and the pending trials of 10 other suspects, including the alleged ringleaders.
> 
> Outside of the courthouse the Crown's star witness, Mubin Shaikh, said he disagreed with the judgment. The RCMP informant who infiltrated the group said he didn't believe the young man was a terrorist.
> 
> Sproat described Shaikh as a truthful witness who gave credible evidence.
> 
> The so-called "Toronto 18" was arrested in June 2006. Since then, charges have been dropped or stayed against seven of the original suspects.


----------



## Klinkaroo

GAP said:
			
		

> So.....they should get off because they are dumb?.....



Doesn't the law say the Ignorance is not an excuse?


----------



## ArmyRick

I agree. Pleading ignorance is no excuse otherwise everybody would use the excuse.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Klinkaroo said:
			
		

> Doesn't the law say the Ignorance is not an excuse?



Exactly,

Video of "Terror Training Camp" in Ontario, Canada  

If they did not know what the hell they were doing, don't video tape it, otherwise it can be used to prove the lie....

dileas

tess


----------



## twistedcables

A VICTORY for the country's intelligence and law enforcement and a wake up call to all those who think it was setup/made up.  A PROOF that the threat is very real and that the only reason we have been safe is NOT because the terrorists are too stupid but rather, because the authorities are so good at what they do.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/09/25/toronto-terror.html  Look for DOCUMENTS: SPROAT VERDICT for a full read.

The judge said the evidence of a group conspiring to attack was OVERWHELMING and that the RCMP agent (himself very Muslim) went undercover, "...as a result of religious conviction that terrorism was contrary to Islamic principles and a corollary sense of civic obligation".  Judge Sproat added that Mubin Shaikh "...exhibited a great number of the hallmarks of a truthful witness...", that he was "...educated and intelligent...", and that he was found to be "a truthful and generally reliable witness".

While this is far from over - a very welcome development indeed!


----------



## danchapps

Good! It's just too bad that the Libs went and made the young offenders act so nice for the perps, because as far as I'm concerned if you do something this outrageously stupid their names and faces deserve to be published in all forms of media. Enjoy prison pal!


----------



## 1feral1

Good evening to all valued members and respected guests.

Being found guilty is one thing, sentancing is another. We'll see what examples will follow the sentancing.

I think we all can agree that Canada must send a clear and present example to the world, regardless of religion of any type of terrorist found guilty of such a crime against the nation as a whole. I am hoping for the maximun pentalty, but I won't hold my breath.

We must remember, we are not punishing a religion, but a terrorist regardless of his faith. If this still antagonises muslims who feel hard done by this court case, and believe these men are all squeaky clean and not capable to comitting such crimes, thats just too bad. Even Hilter was loved by his family and friends. 

However, knowing our legal system, the sentance will not match the crime.

I will hold commenting until this comes.

OWDU


----------



## geo

> However, knowing our legal system, the sentance will not match the crime



I'm with you Wes.  People will say that there was no crime - that they were misguided & woulod never do such things as they themselves threatened to do

BUT the only reason there was no spectacular terrorist / criminal event is cause the authorities were able to shut the cell down before they acted.

Throw the book at em IMHO


----------



## axeman

And now its back to will the time fot the crime . These ppl were planning on MURDERING  will they get a slap on  the wrist or will it be a real punishment and be life , which is what they were planning on taking away from someone?


----------



## twistedcables

Hmmmm.....strangely, the verdict is no longer available on the website.  Methinks they were not supposed to have posted it.

Good thing I tend to save documents like that.

Anyone interested in the verdict itself, can PM me.


----------



## George Wallace

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

RCMP Informant calls teen terror suspects 'sheep' 

January 30, 2009

By THE CANADIAN PRESS

  
BRAMPTON, Ont. - An RCMP informant who was instrumental in helping authorities crack a home-grown terrorist plot has begun testifying about his role. 

Mubin Shaikh says he gained the trust of the so-called Toronto 18 leaders because of his knowledge of extremist Islam, his martial-arts and army-cadet background, and his licence to buy weapons. 

He described meeting the men in December 2005 at the request of Canada's spy agency. 

Shaikh described the teen suspects as "sheep" who did not say anything and appeared clueless about the terrorist aspirations of the adults. 

One of them was a youth found guilty last fall of aiding and abetting a terrorist group. 

The defence wants charges against the youth stayed on the grounds that Shaikh helped entrap him, and committed criminal acts by buying guns and helping the teen fire a weapon. 

Shaikh said the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and RCMP, for whom he worked as a paid informant, showed no concern about the teens. 

"There were no discussions as to their age or perceived vulnerability," Shaikh, 33, told the court. 

"(But) I consistently made reference to various degrees of involvement and commitment to the cause." 

The youth, a Hindu convert to Islam, was 17 at the time and cannot be identified because of his age. The court has also ordered non-publication of the group's alleged leaders, who have yet to stand trial. 

The Toronto-born Shaikh helped set up a winter camp north of Toronto in December 2005 which the prosecution has said was for terrorist training. 

Over the summer of 2006, police arrested 18 people in the Toronto area and charged them with various terrorist-related offences. 

They said they had foiled a plot that involved truck-bombings in downtown Toronto, storming Parliament and taking hostages, and attacking nuclear power plants.

LINK


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Nobody else in Canada has to be responsible for their actions.  Why should these clowns be any different?


----------



## geo

I am responsible for my own actions and will/would be held responsibel for anything I ahve said and/or done

Time that these young men are taught the 1st (and most painful) lesson in responsibility.

Watch the fingers as they close the cell doors !


----------



## zipperhead_cop

geo said:
			
		

> I am responsible for my own actions and will/would be held responsibel for anything I ahve said and/or done
> 
> Time that these young men are taught the 1st (and most painful) lesson in responsibility.
> 
> Watch the fingers as they close the cell doors !



I'm not saying that there aren't people who take responsibility for themselves, what I'm saying is that there is nothing in the legal system that genuinely makes people have to take responsibility for their actions.  The military is a bit different, albeit it appears to be sliding down the same rabbit hole.  
However, this lack-of-justice tangent is becoming a touch hijack-y.  My apologies.


----------



## The Bread Guy

This from the Canadian Press, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._:


> A lawyer for a Canadian man accused in a terrorist bomb plot says his client has pleaded guilty.
> 
> Saad Khalid is the first to plead guilty since the 2006 arrest of the "Toronto 18," a group prosecutors accuse of planning to truck-bomb nuclear power plants and a building housing Canada's spy service. The case made headlines and heightened fears in a country where many people thought they were relatively immune from terrorist strikes.
> 
> Lawyer Russell Silverstein says Khalid entered the guilty plea on Monday, and the judge banned publication of the plea until late Tuesday.
> 
> One other man in the group has been found guilty. Seven of those arrested have had their charges either withdrawn or stayed.
> 
> The trials of the other nine, including the alleged ringleaders, have not started.


----------



## The Bread Guy

....after being convicted and sentenced to time served, courtesy of the Canadian Press:


> A man convicted of terrorist offences following the high-profile takedown of a homegrown terror cell bent on wreaking havoc in Canada was sentenced Friday to 2 1/2 years in prison and walked free just hours later based on time already served.
> 
> The man, who cannot be named, was the first member of the so-called Toronto 18 found guilty in the plot, though his lawyer said his role was minimal at best.
> 
> "He's somebody who's essentially found guilty of shoplifting, somebody who went to a second (training) camp that was essentially benign," Mitchell Chernovsky said outside the court.
> 
> "He's somebody who's young, has no prior record, has a positive pre-sentence report.
> 
> "Maximum sentence for the offence is only 10 years."
> 
> The man was released from jail and was back home Friday after being sentenced. The release was based on credit for time served in custody before trial ....


----------



## Fishbone Jones

And people wonder why Homeland Security wants to treat us like Mexico :. The Star Chamber and the real world will have a violent meeting someday, then the utopian left wingers will wonder how it came to this.

Fucking revolving door justice.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

recceguy said:
			
		

> Fucking revolving door justice legal system.



That other word hasn't existed for quite some time.  
But we get the society that we deserve.  Until people want to pull their collective heads out of their collective arses and start screaming at their elected officials to do something, we are giving away the farm.  And for that to happen, we need a body count.  Nothing else will do for the sheeple.  
I wonder if the Romans ignored blatant warning signs like this towards the end?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Reviving necrothread with the latest. 

This from the Canadian Press:


> One of the ringleaders of the so-called Toronto 18 terror group has pleaded guilty in the middle of his trial.
> 
> Fahim Ahmad, 25, was being tried along with Steven Chand and Asad Ansari on terrorism charges in the last of the trials associated with the group.
> 
> Justice Fletcher Dawson told the jury Monday that Ahmad pleaded guilty.
> 
> "You look out here this morning, members of the jury, you'll see Mr. Ahmad is no longer with us," said Dawson.
> 
> "Mr. Ahmad last week decided to change his plea to guilty."
> 
> Ahmad's plea has "no impact on the guilt or innocence of the two men who remain on trial," Dawson instructed the jury.
> 
> The jury heard earlier in the trial that Ahmad was the leader of a terror cell and held two training camps to assess his recruits' suitability.
> 
> Court was told Ahmad planned to attack Parliament, electrical grids and nuclear stations ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

.... "Final two ‘Toronto 18′ terror accused found guilty":


> The final two accused in the “Toronto 18″ terrorism case have been found guilty by a Superior Court jury.
> 
> Asad Ansari, 25, and Steven Chand, 29, were on trial for participating in a terror cell that plotted to storm Parliament and detonate truck bombs in downtown Toronto.
> 
> Chand was also found guilty of counseling the commission of fraud for the group’s benefit.
> 
> Sentencing discussions are set to take place tomorrow.


----------



## GAP

Convicted Toronto 18 ringleader to be sentenced Monday
Article Link
 Postmedia News October 24, 2010

BRAMPTON, Ont. — On Monday, an Ontario judge will hand down the sentence for the convicted ringleader of the Toronto 18 terrorist group.

Fahim Ahmad pleaded guilty in May to participating in a terrorist group, importing firearms and instructing others to carry out activities for the benefit of a terrorist group. Before the Toronto 18 cell was dismantled in 2006, the group had plotted to storm Parliament and detonate powerful truck bombs at key targets in and around Toronto.

Evidence has shown that Ahmad arranged terrorist training camps, created propaganda videos and helped the group acquire weapons.

Last month, in a rambling, six-page letter to the court, Ahmad said he had fallen into a "fantasy world" when he plotted to devastate Canadian infrastructure with a series of attacks.

Ahmad also placed the blame on a host of external sources, from his parents, to religious leaders, to anonymous people he met online.

Ahmad, who has been in custody since June 2006, faces a maximum sentence of life in prison.
More on link


----------



## Kat Stevens

So, out in 7 with time served and good behavior?


----------



## The Bread Guy

> A member of the so-called Toronto 18, who tried to raise funds for an al-Qaeda-inspired homegrown cell, rapped about the “predicaments of my present times” before being sentenced in a Brampton court Friday to 10 years.
> 
> Steven Chand, 29, who was a trainer at a camp to weed out potential recruits and who helped scout a safehouse, appeared relaxed in the prisoner’s box as Justice Fletcher Dawson delivered his ruling.
> 
> The Scarborough man, who has been behind bars since his arrest in June 2006, was given slightly more than two-for-one credit of time served, which means he will serve an additional seven months and 10 days.
> 
> As part of his sentence, Chand was given three years of probation, a lifetime weapons prohibition and ordered to submit a DNA sample.
> 
> He faced a maximum term of life imprisonment for the fraud charge and up to 10 years for participating in the terror cell – with sentences to run consecutively – but the Crown and defence had agreed, early in the process, that an eight-year sentence would be sufficient.
> 
> However, Dawson noted that such a sentence was “inadequate” and “would be contrary to the public interest.”
> 
> “Mr. Chand was ideologically committed to the cause… He was serious,” said Dawson, who also recommended Chand seek de-radicalization counseling ....


More here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From the Canadian Press via therecord.com, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._


> Two members of the so-called Toronto 18 terrorist group had their sentences dramatically increased Friday, while an appeal of the ringleader’s life sentence was denied.
> 
> Decisions in the cases of Zakaria Amara, Saad Khalid and Saad Gaya were among six terrorism-related judgments released Friday by the Court of Appeal for Ontario.
> 
> The court came down heavily on the Toronto 18 members, who all pleaded guilty and were convicted in a plot to cause mass carnage by setting off truck bombs in Toronto and outside a military base.
> 
> Earlier this year Amara was the first person given the maximum penalty under Canada’s anti-terror laws — a life sentence with no parole eligibility for 10 years. He appealed that sentence, but the court dismissed it.
> 
> The Appeal Court also increased the sentences of two other Toronto 18 members, who participated in Amara’s bomb plot. The Crown had appealed their sentences, arguing they were too lenient.
> 
> The Appeal Court agreed and Saad Khalid saw his sentence increased to 20 years from 14 years. Taking a seven-year credit for pre-sentence custody into account Khalid will have to serve 13 more years. He must serve 6 ½ years before he is eligible for parole.
> 
> Saad Gaya saw his sentence increased to 18 years from 12 years. Taking credit for pre-sentence custody into account, Gaya must serve 10 ½ more years instead of 4 ½. He will be eligible for parole in a little more than five years.
> 
> The three young men were among 18 people arrested in the summer of 2006 in what came to be known as the Toronto 18 terrorist group. Eleven of them were ultimately convicted.



_- edited to add following - _
From news releases here and here, issued by the Public Prosecution Service of Canada:


> The Ontario Court of Appeal today released decisions on sentence appeals for three members of a Toronto group convicted of terrorism-related offences.
> 
> In the case of Saad Khalid, 24, the Court allowed the Crown’s appeal and increased his sentence to 20 years imprisonment. On September 3, 2009, he was sentenced to 14 years in prison after pleading guilty to one count of intending to cause an explosion that was likely to cause serious bodily harm or death for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with a terrorist group contrary to s. 83.2 of the Criminal Code.
> 
> In the case of Saad Gaya, 23, the Court allowed the Crown’s appeal and increased his sentence to 18 years imprisonment. On January 18, 2010, he was sentenced to 12 years after pleading guilty to one count of intending to cause an explosion that was likely to cause serious bodily harm or death for the benefit of, at the direction of or in association with terrorist group, contrary to s. 83.2 of the Criminal Code.
> 
> In the case of Zakaria Amara, 25, the Court dismissed the defence appeal. He will continue to serve his original sentence of life imprisonment imposed by the Ontario Superior Court on January 18, 2010, after he pleaded guilty to two counts of terrorism-related offences under sections 81(1)(a) and 83.18(1) of the Criminal Code.
> 
> The Court of Appeal stated that terrorism is a crime like no other. The Court has indicated that individuals who threaten our peaceful and democratic society by plotting to kill innocent citizens for ideological causes will receive sentences that reflect the gravity of their crimes ....





> The Ontario Court of Appeal today released its decision to increase Mohammad Momin Khawaja’s sentence to life imprisonment for his role in a terrorist bomb plot.
> 
> The Court concluded that the trial judge erred by imposing a 10.5 year sentence in addition to the four and a half years served in pre-trial custody. The Public Prosecution Service of Canada launched its appeal after reviewing the sentencing decision. Maximum penalties for the offences range from 10 years to life imprisonment. The decision to appeal was guided by policy in the FPS Deskbook, which is a public document.
> 
> On October 29, 2008, Momin Khawaja was found guilty of several Criminal Code and terrorism-related offences including the development of a remote bomb detonating device.
> 
> The Court of Appeal today recognized that terrorism is a global threat to peace and security, and that innocent lives around the world must be protected from terrorists, wherever they are based. The Court clearly stated that Canada is not a safe haven for would-be terrorists ....


----------



## brihard

Friggin' excellent.


----------



## GAP

This needs to be posted in it's entirety here, in addition to the Sandbox thread were comments are not encouraged,.....this deserves comment.

 Terrorism rulings an early Christmas present from our justice system
CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD Saturday's Globe and Mail Friday, Dec. 17, 2010
Article Link

As someone smarter than me remarked upon reading the slew of newly released terrorism judgments from the Ontario Court of Appeal, this young country just did a whole lot of growing up.

In a series of six linked decisions, the highest court in the province dramatically upped the sentences for three convicted Canadian terrorists (to life in prison, in the case of Ottawa’s Momin Khawaja) and urged judges to ditch their “business as usual” approach with terrorists.

More than that, the decisions in total reflect a hardnosed realpolitik remarkable in a country where sentences rarely match the judicial thunder that often precedes them.

“Terrorism, in our view, is in a special category of crime and must be treated as such,” Justices David Doherty, Michael Moldaver and Eleanore Cronk wrote in the Khawaja case.

With terrorism offences, they said, “sentences exceeding 20 years, up to and including life imprisonment, should not be viewed as exceptional.

“That may not be the traditional approach to sentencing,” the court said, “but it is the approach we believe must be taken to repudiate and deter terrorism and denounce it for the insidious crime it is.”

The judges noted that though Canada’s “sentencing and correctional philosophy also places a premium on the notion of individual dignity and it accepts redemption and rehabilitation as desired and achievable goals,” these hallmarks of the justice system “may be seen by those who reject democracy and individual freedom as signs of weakness.

“Terrorists, in particular, may view Canada as an attractive place from which to pursue their heinous activities.

“And it is up to the courts to shut the door on that way of thinking, swiftly and surely.”

The panel found that in sentencing Mr. Khawaja, the first person tried in Ontario on terrorism charges, the trial judge had imposed a “manifestly unfit” sentence of 10 and a half years by failing to consider three key factors – the special danger terrorism poses to Canadian society; the threat Mr. Khawaja himself poses and “the need for the sentence imposed to send a clear message to would-be terrorists that Canada is not a safe haven ...”

The judges’ message to the lower courts was unmistakable: There is a “need to let would-be terrorists know that they will pay a heavy price if they choose to pursue their deadly activities in Canada.”

In other words, the court has said baldly that the threat is real; that what is threatened isn’t mere property or even lives, but fundamental Canadian values, and that if would-be terrorists thought that Canadians could be played as suckers who wouldn’t rise to defend those values, they ought to reconsider.

Those values – “the pursuit of truth, participation in the community and individual self-fulfillment” – are the very principles that underpin the right to freedom of expression, the court said. Any Canadian can say anything he or she wants so long as it advances one or more of those ideals.

But “counselling someone to engage in conduct that would cause death or serious bodily harm hardly encourages” any of those things, the court said. It dismissed a challenge to the anti-terrorism legislation on the grounds that it could have a “chilling effect” upon those who may share terrorists’ beliefs but stop short of violence.

If authorities overstep their bounds and “sweep within their investigative net persons who had done nothing more than bear a religious, cultural or racial resemblance to persons stereotyped as terrorists,” it would be improper and unconstitutional.

But, the court said, there’s no evidence of that.

“There are many potential explanations for why people might feel a chilling effect when it comes to expressing extremist Islamic views,” the judges wrote. “Perhaps, most obviously, there is the reality of the world we live in. Terrorism and the fear and uncertainty terrorism creates are facts of life.

“Fear can generate many things, including suspicion based on ignorance and stereotyping.

“Many, but by no means all, of the major terrorist attacks in the last 10 years have been perpetrated by radical Islamic groups fuelled by a potent mix of religious and political fanaticism.

“It is hardly surprising,” the judges said, “that in the public mind, terrorism is associated with the religious and political views of radical Islamists.”

While in no way condoning such “profiling or stereotyping,” the court noted, “Individuals who associate themselves through their conduct or statements with the goals or activities of terrorist groups can expect to be investigated by the police even though it may turn out that those persons have not engaged in any ‘terrorist activity.’ ”

Mr. Khawaja’s lawyers had argued that the goal that motivated him to develop a detonator he called the “Hi-Fi Digimonster” and to enthusiastically embrace violent jihad was “to kill Western soldiers in Afghanistan and local troops that support them, not innocent civilians” and that his punishment should be mitigated accordingly.

The judges smacked that argument away. Mr. Khawaja’s “own writings belie” it, they said. “Beyond that, we reject outright the notion that the lives of soldiers serving in Afghanistan should be somehow treated as ‘less worthy’ of protection when fashioning sentences…”

They got every damn thing right: Merry Christmas Canada, from the Ontario Court of Appeal.
More on link


----------



## PuckChaser

The justice system finally got it right!


----------



## larry Strong

Excellent news


----------



## Fishbone Jones

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The justice system finally got it right!



Now we just have to get them to do the same with our home grown, hammer head run of the mill criminals................ :


----------



## George Wallace

Baby steps.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From Postmedia News:


> The country's top court has upheld the federal government's right to withhold evidence for national security reasons regarding the Toronto 18 terrorism plot, which was broken up in June 2006.
> 
> In a unanimous ruling, the Supreme Court of Canada said Thursday that the provisions adopted by the government were constitutional, but it also concluded that suspects could be released whenever the evidence against them is too sensitive to be presented in a trial.
> 
> "Sometimes the only way to avoid an '(unfair) trial is to have no trial at all," members of the Supreme Court of Canada wrote in their ruling.
> 
> "As we have explained . . . the criminal court trial judge possesses the means to safeguard the accused's fair trial rights." ....



Supreme Court of Canada decision here.


----------



## The Bread Guy

From CBC.ca


> Shareef Abdelhaleem, a member of the so-called Toronto 18 who was convicted of participating in a bomb plot, was sentenced Friday to life in prison.
> 
> Ontario Superior Court Justice Fletcher Dawson said Abdelhaleem didn't show remorse for his role in a plan to set off three one-tonne fertilizer bombs, including two in downtown Toronto.
> 
> Abdelhaleem, 35, was found guilty in February 2010 of participating in a terrorist group and intending to cause an explosion.
> 
> He and 17 others, who came to be known in the media as the Toronto 18, were arrested in 2006 and charged with terrorism offences.
> 
> Seven had their charges dropped or stayed, seven pleaded guilty and four were convicted ....


----------



## jollyjacktar

About time one of them got a decent sentence.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Apparently, one of the folks could be back on the street shortly.....


> Ali Dirie, the gunrunner of the so-called Toronto 18 terrorist cell, continues to pose "a high risk of violent reoffending," the National Parole Board has concluded, ordering the 28-year-old to serve out his full sentence at the Special Handling Unit in Ste. Anne Des Plaines, north of Montreal.
> 
> It is not clear, however, what will happen to the would-be jihadist when his sentence at the top-security prison is over in six weeks.
> 
> A spokesperson for the National Parole Board said that once Dirie is released Oct. 1, he will be out of their hands.
> 
> "The parole board has the mandate to impose special conditions, if they do provide parole, within the framework of protecting society within an acceptable level of risk to the public," said Leyla Mavaddat, a regional communications officer for the NPB. "Once the sentence is completed, they will have no authority."
> 
> A spokesperson for Correctional Services Canada said Dirie will no longer be in the CSC's jurisdiction either - there was no long-term supervision order attached to his sentence, said Suzanne Leclerc.
> 
> Dirie, who came to Canada from Somalia with his mother when he was 7 and lived in Scarborough, Ont., was initially arrested in 2005, while trying to cross back into Canada from Buffalo with two loaded handguns taped to his thighs. He pleaded guilty to weapons offences and was given a two-year jail term.
> 
> But evidence later emerged the weapons were intended for use by the Toronto 18, who planned to blow up the Toronto Stock Exchange, a Canadian Security Intelligence Service office in Toronto and a military base between Toronto and Ottawa, among other targets, and take politicians hostage in an attempt to force Canadian troops out of Afghanistan ....


Source:  Postmedia News, 18 Aug 11


----------



## The Bread Guy

> The Supreme Court of Canada will not hear the cases of three members of the so-called Toronto 18 terrorist group who wanted to appeal their sentences.
> 
> Ontario’s Appeal Court had previously upheld the maximum sentence for ringleader Zakaria Amara and significantly increased the sentences of two co-conspirators.
> 
> All three sought leave to appeal their sentences to the Supreme Court, but today the high court declined to hear the cases.
> 
> The decision means their sentences stand, including Amara’s sentence of life in prison with no chance of parole for 10 years — the harshest penalty available for a terrorism offence.
> 
> Saad Khalid and Saad Gaya are in prison on 20-year and 18-year sentences, respectively, after the Court of Appeal for Ontario increased their sentences by six years each ....


The Canadian Press, 28 Feb 13


----------



## jollyjacktar

Huzzar for the Supremes.  Nice to see the system working in a direction that pleases me for a change.


----------



## larry Strong

Well that's one down

Shared with the usual caveats....

*Toronto 18 member killed fighting in Syria*



> A member of the Toronto 18 terror group that planned attacks on Canadian targets nearly a decade ago has died while fighting in Syria, CTV News has confirmed.
> 
> Ali Mohamed Dirie served two years in prison for his role in the plot to blow up the Parliament buildings and other landmarks, assassinate the prime minister and kidnap politicians.
> 
> He was first arrested in 2005, before police rounded up other members of the group in 2006. In 2009, Dirie pleaded guilty to his role in the plot and was sentenced to seven years in jail. He spent two years in prison after receiving credit for time served.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Related Stories
> 
> Western-backed Syrian National Coalition no longer represents us: rebels
> 
> 
> More than 4 million Syrians face food crisis, half of them children, aid group warns
> 
> 
> Last two 'Toronto 18' defendants found guilty
> 
> 
> During his trial, court heard that he spent his time in custody trying to recruit fellow inmates for terror plots and procure weapons and travel documents.
> 
> When he appeared before a parole hearing in 2010, Dirie said he was a changed man, and no longer advocated violence to achieve political goals.
> 
> Dirie told National Parole Board officials that although he opposed Canada’s role in the war in Afghanistan, “I don’t intend to bring about change by damaging Canada to make them change their ways.”
> 
> Submissions to the Parole Board said otherwise, suggesting he still posed a threat and was not a suitable parole candidate.
> 
> Dirie served out his sentence at a Quebec facility for the most violent inmates, and was released in 2011.
> 
> A long-term supervision order was not included in his sentence, so Correctional Services Canada was unable to monitor him following his release.
> 
> Dirie was born in Somalia and came to Canada at the age of seven. He lived with his mother in Scarborough, an east-end suburb of Toronto.




Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/toronto-18-member-killed-fighting-in-syria-1.1470879#ixzz2fx9bJZ2F


----------



## Flavus101

I still cannot figure out the reasoning behind ever releasing people such as this.

Anyways, cannot say I feel any sadness about this.  :-\


----------



## jollyjacktar

Good.  More to follow I hope.


----------



## OldSolduer

Flavus101 said:
			
		

> I still cannot figure out the reasoning behind ever releasing people such as this


Simple - it's the law. The law states once you have satisfied the sentence, you are to be released.

To do otherwise is to break the law.


----------



## Danjanou

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Simple - it's the law. The law states once you have satisfied the sentence, you are to be released.
> 
> To do otherwise is to break the law.



" the law is an ass"

Charles Dickens


----------



## OldSolduer

Danjanou said:
			
		

> " the law is an ***"
> 
> Charles Dickens



But until the population demands change, it will remain the law.


----------



## Flavus101

I should have been more clear, I wonder why our laws have been written up in this way. Perhaps the system does work, we just do not hear much about the success stories.


----------



## FJAG

Not to get in the way of a venting at the legal system, our sentencing system is based on having a sentence of an appropriate measure to meet the crime. There are a number of principles in sentencing but in short its to ensure--as much as possible--that the sentence fits the crime and the criminal. One can debate the concepts _ad nauseum_ but as far as the Toronto 18 were concerned, the ring-leaders ended up getting some pretty stiff sentences; the others received sentences on a sliding scale downward.

There is a system whereby a crown attorney can argue for an indefinite sentence of incarceration but really none of the lower-end participants would have been considered eligible considering their previous histories of no significant involvement with the law.

I must admit I've never been one to seek a "ramping up" of punishment for any particular civilian crime but have always taken the view that anyone who bands together with others and considers himself "at war" with society should be treated as a prisoner of war. POWs can be held prisoner for as long as the war continues and can also be tried separately for any war crimes they have committed. In my view this war on terror will never end, it will ebb and flow, but it will never end. Participants should be locked up for life and isolated from others to prevent them from infecting them with their nonsense. Currently we are creating too many extremists in prison.

 :cheers:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bumped with the latest - no parole for this guy just yet ....


> A leader of the Toronto 18 terrorist group that was broken up by Canadian police in 2006 has lost his appeal of a Parole Board decision that concluded he wasn’t yet ready to be released from prison.
> 
> The board’s decision was fair and reasonable, the appeals panel ruled in the case of Fahim Ahmad, who organized a paramilitary training camp north of Toronto and plotted to attack the parliament buildings and behead MPs.
> 
> The decision was “based on relevant, reliable and persuasive information,” the Appeal Division wrote in a five-page decision that cited the “gravity” of Ahmad’s offences and “lack of a release plan,” among other factors.
> 
> Ahmad was the leader of one of two factions of the al-Qaida-inspired Toronto 18. The leader of the second faction, Zakaria Amara, last month became the first Canadian terrorist to lose his citizenship under a controversial new law.
> 
> At least five other Toronto 18 members have been notified they may also lose their citizenship under the law, which applies to dual nationals convicted of terrorism offences. Ahmad’s lawyer said last week his client was not among those who had received such a notice ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest:  one chap up for day parole ...


> One of the men serving jail time for the so-called “Toronto 18” bomb plot was granted day parole and is being released from prison.
> 
> In a decision addressing 28-year-old Saad Gaya on Wednesday, the Parole Board of Canada concluded that he will not be a risk to the public and his conditional release will support his reintegration into society.
> 
> Gaya pleaded guilty in 2010 to being part of the radical Islamic group that planned to set off bombs in downtown Toronto and at a military base near Hwy. 401.
> 
> “You now understand that your extremist views and actions are contrary to the true meaning of Islam,” the board concluded this week.
> 
> “It was evident to the Board that you had gained tremendous insight into your radicalization and the events that led to your (offence).”
> 
> Two halfway houses in the Toronto area are supporting Gaya, and he will be required to stay there and obey a series of conditions attached to his parole. He is not allowed to associate with any person who could be involved in criminal activity, and he can’t use any technology that would give him unsupervised Internet access. He must also report all contact with other men to his parole officer and will be required to take religious counselling.
> 
> His day parole could be revoked if he breaks these conditions, and will be reviewed by the board within six months, according to spokesperson Holly Knowles ...


----------



## George Wallace

In the "Road paved in good intentions leads us to HELL" category:

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Trudeau’s Canada: Citizenship for terrorists
> BY CANDICE MALCOLM
> FIRST POSTED: WEDNESDAY, JUNE 22, 2016 05:07 PM EDT | UPDATED: WEDNESDAY, JUNE 22, 2016 05:30 PM EDT
> 
> A convicted Islamist terrorist is one step closer to being granted Canadian citizenship, thanks to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau’s government.
> 
> Trudeau successfully rammed his controversial Bill C-6 through the House of Commons on the last day before summer recess. Now all that’s left is a rubber stamp from the Senate.
> 
> The bill repeals a Stephen Harper-era law that enabled the government to strip Canadian citizenship from foreign-born citizens convicted of terrorism.
> 
> This isn’t exactly controversial. Most Western countries have similar laws. Most Canadians agree citizenship is a privilege, not a right, and not something to be handed out to convicted jihadists.
> 
> Jordanian-born Zakaria Amara was the only person to have his Canadian citizenship revoked through the law. And he deserved it.
> 
> Amara moved to Canada as a teenager, and by the age of 20, he was already in prison facing a slew of terrorism charges.
> 
> He was a ringleader of a sophisticated terrorist group known as the Toronto 18. He recruited, trained and groomed fellow Islamist extremists and actively worked on a plot to murder scores of Canadians, including the Prime Minister.
> 
> Amara’s attack would have seen bombs detonated in downtown Toronto, shooting sprees at the CBC and the Toronto Stock Exchange, and the beheading of politicians in Ottawa.
> 
> He wanted to mass murder Canadians, and shatter our sense of safety and security.
> 
> It would have forever changed our country.
> 
> Amara’s crimes are unforgivable.
> 
> And yet, the Trudeau government is in a rush to not only forgive him, but to apologize for revoking his citizenship and reward him with the honour of being Canadian.
> 
> It’s reprehensible. And it’s not the only damage done by this bill.
> 
> C-6 also reduces the amount of time newcomers must live in Canada before they qualify for citizenship, down to just three years of part-time residency.
> 
> Worse, it eliminates the language requirement for many new Canadians.
> 
> Under the current law, every newcomer between the age of 14 and 64 must pass a basic English or French test before qualifying for citizenship.
> 
> The Trudeau Liberals, for political reasons, decided to change the rules so only those aged 18 to 54 are required to pass the language test.
> 
> Special interest groups want to make it as easy as possible for foreigners to come to Canada and obtain a Canadian passport.
> 
> And the Liberals, beholden to the immigration lobby, are putting their political interests ahead of the national interest.
> 
> This was clear when Conservative MP Michelle Rempel asked Immigration Minister John McCallum if his government had done any research or consultations to explain why they were eliminating the language requirement for many newcomers.
> 
> McCallum admitted there was no research and no evidence to back the policy.
> 
> The Liberals gave no further explanation and made no additional appeal to Canadians. They simply forced their bill through Parliament.
> 
> The only opportunity left to stop this reckless bill is for the Senate to intervene.
> 
> Canadians should contact Senators Claude Carignan, Yonah Martin and Linda Frum to encourage them to amend this bill. These Conservative Senators are in a position to stop Trudeau.
> 
> The radical, politically-motivated Bill C-6 will make Canada more vulnerable and less united.
> 
> Canadians should demand that newcomers learn our language and truly join the Canadian family.
> 
> And those who seek to undermine our national security — those who plot ISIS-style massacres in Canada — should never be given the privilege of citizenship.



More on LINK.

Reality is not his forte, nor that of his Government.


----------



## jollyjacktar

:boke:

3 1/2 years until maybe we can take the trash out.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Reality is not his forte, nor that of his Government.



Here's the reality he will have to deal with: He better enjoy his state diner with president Obama coming up, because his relations with the US are about to take a turn for the worst.

It matters not who the next president is. Trump, who would stop Muslims entering the US (if he could -he'll find out he can't) will not take kindly to a young twirp that makes it easy for any of them to come unto the North American continent. He won't build a fence, because even if built by Trump construction, it would be too expansive, but a large increase of scrutiny of all things Canadian at the border would be in his power - and for every extra 5 minutes at the border that Canadian trucking companies face (collectively), it's an annual $1b hit to our economy, and I am using one of the low figures used by economists who calculate these things.

And he can't expect any better from a Clinton administration. First of all, she represents the state of New York. New Yorkers may not have much concerns about illegal immigration in the South - it's not really on their radars - but they are keenly aware of Canadian border issues and how close to them it is in terms of potential entry port for a terrorist threat. So you can be sure that Clinton has been well briefed on these issues during her whole senatorial career, and that any Canadian law or policy that distances the Canadian immigration policies from the American ones on the side of lowering of the protections are grave concerns to her. Pair that with the fact that, in the Democratic Party, she has always been identified with the trade protectionist faction and you have a recipe for a disaster for our economy.

All that just to buy cheap votes.  :not-again:


----------



## jollyjacktar

I do hope your fears are unfounded, sadly for Canada and Canadians, I don't think you are.  The Trudeau Trainwreck that we are going to experience over the next 3 1/3 years is going to take decades to dig out from under, no doubt.  What happens when you give the keys to the family car to that spotty faced teenager who thinks he can actually drive on a learner's permit.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Well that's one down
> 
> Shared with the usual caveats....
> 
> *Toronto 18 member killed fighting in Syria*
> (...)
> Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/toronto-18-member-killed-fighting-in-syria-1.1470879#ixzz2fx9bJZ2F


Bumped with an ... alternate story line, from ISIS's Info-machine (footnote in attached) - full issue of latest ISIS propaganda sheet vieawable at non-terrorist page here - with thanks to the Jihadology blog for sharing the magazine


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest on one of the gang ...


> A man who pleaded guilty to participating in a plot to bomb targets in Toronto has had his day parole extended as the Parole Board of Canada found he has made a "strong beginning" to his period of conditional release.
> 
> In January, Saad Gaya was initially granted six months of day parole, with special conditions that included avoiding contact with those involved in criminal activity and a requirement to participate in religious counselling to deal with religious extremism.
> 
> The board has since reviewed his case and decided to extended his day parole up until his statutory release date, which a spokeswoman said is in January 2017.
> 
> Gaya, now 28, was one of the so-called Toronto 18 — a group of men and youths who were accused of plotting to bomb targets in Ontario that included the Toronto Stock Exchange, CSIS headquarters and a military base, all in protest of Canada's military involvement in Afghanistan.
> 
> Eleven were ultimately convicted of terrorist offences.
> 
> Gaya, a former science student at Hamilton's McMaster University, was arrested in 2006 while unloading a delivery truck filled with three tonnes of bags marked ammonium nitrate fertilizer. He was originally sentenced in 2010 to 12 years in prison, and an appeal court increased that to 18 years.
> 
> Gaya's day parole, which took effect in February, allows him to attend school, but he must return to a community-based residential facility at night ...


----------



## George Wallace

June 2016 has come back to haunt us:


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.



> Trudeau rewards a terrorist with citizenship
> By Candice Malcolm
> First posted: Friday, March 03, 2017 04:10 PM MST | Updated: Friday, March 03, 2017 04:27 PM MST
> 
> Zakaria Amara is a convicted terrorist, serving a life sentence for his role in a plot to murder scores of Canadians. And now, thanks to a Trudeau government bill passed through the Senate this week, Amara will soon be given the privilege of Canadian citizenship.
> 
> After all, a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, right?
> 
> In the case of Amara, this “Canadian” was born in Jordan and raised in Saudi Arabia.
> 
> He came to Canada as a teenager, became a Canadian citizen as a young man, and, by the time he turned 20, he was behind bars and charged with terrorism.
> 
> Amara was the ringleader of a sophisticated terrorist cell known as the Toronto 18. He recruited, trained and groomed fellow Islamist extremists and worked towards a deadly terrorist plot.
> 
> Amara wanted to detonate bombs in downtown Toronto, and coordinate shooting sprees at the CBC and the Toronto Stock Exchange. He planned to siege Parliament Hill in Ottawa, and carry out executions and beheadings of politicians, including the Prime Minster.
> 
> He wanted to mass murder Canadians. And even more so, he wanted to shatter our sense of safety and security. It would have forever changed Canada.
> 
> Thankfully, this madman’s plot was foiled by an undercover police sting operation. Amara pled guilty to terrorism charges, and was slapped with a life sentence.
> 
> Under the Harper government, Amara had his Canadian citizenship revoked and was set to be deported the moment he was released from prison.
> 
> But things have changed under Justin Trudeau.
> 
> Trudeau said during the 2015 election campaign that he believes “terrorists should get to keep their Canadian citizenship.” And now he’s keeping good on that pledge.
> 
> Trudeau’s Immigration Minister Ahmed Hussen told the Senate that the Liberal government had already initiated the process to restore citizenship to the convicted terrorist.
> 
> While Trudeau didn’t mind throwing other campaign promises out the window – modest deficits, electoral reform, legalizing marijuana, and so on – he deemed it a priority to grant citizenship to this convicted terrorist.
> 
> Trudeau’s agenda prioritized helping a man who hates Canada so much he wanted to wage war against it. Amara was so ungrateful to his host country that he plotted to mass murder civilians in a senseless and unprovoked attack.
> 
> And yet, Trudeau is rewarding him with the privilege of Canadian citizenship.
> 
> The decision is as reckless as it is absurd.
> 
> It’s the height of Liberal moral relativism to say that we’re no better than Islamist extremists, and that terrorists deserve a second chance in Canada. Trudeau seems to believe we should be tolerant and welcoming to everyone, even hateful Islamists and bloodthirsty jihadists.
> 
> In Trudeau-land, everyone is a Canadian. He believes in open borders, envisions Canada as the world’s first “post-national state” and considers himself a “global citizen.”
> 
> But to the rest of us, Trudeau is simply out of touch. He’s diminishing the value of Canadian citizenship and putting an idealistic platitude – a Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian – ahead of common sense, not to mention the safety and security of real Canadians.
> 
> Amara was up for parole in 2016, and fortunately, his parole was denied. But sooner or later, thanks to Canada’s revolving door prison system, this thug will be released from prison and let back onto the streets in Canada.
> 
> What message does this send to wannabe jihadists and extremists looking to sneak into the West? In Trudeau’s own words, “Canada will welcome you.”



More on LINK


Sorry, but my views on "inclusiveness" does not include anyone who is a threat to my life and freedoms.  Yet another subversive act to promote divisiveness.


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## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> June 2016 has come back to haunt us:
> 
> 
> Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
> 
> More on LINK
> 
> 
> Sorry, but my views on "inclusiveness" does not include anyone who is a threat to my life and freedoms.  Yet another subversive act to promote divisiveness.



See George, that's the problem though isn't it. Good old Canadians. What are you really going to do about it? We've seen what kind of a fair shake we'll get from the Trudeau liberals. So what are we going to do about it? Stomp our feet and shake our fist at the North Block. So what are we going to do about it? We know he'll have us done in by 2019, too late then. What are we going to do about it? We don't share Trudeau's world citizen, open border philosophy, being forced on us. What are we going to do about it?

We're not going to do anything. We're Canadian. We'll give up our homes if we're told to, stand on the lawn and scream at the world while we wait for the bus and the new owners are waving at you from your living room.

We are not going to anything about it. We'll stand around and bitch, like we always do, as our world goes to shit around us. 

By the time Canadians find their nuts, it'll all be over.


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## jollyjacktar

Stupid, fucking drama teacher...   :rage:


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## Stoker

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Stupid, ******* drama teacher...   :rage:



Every initiative the Conservatives passed will be reversed. We have at least another 6 years of this.....


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## jollyjacktar

I fear you're correct, as I believe the tools that voted in the tools will do so again in 2019.


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## Journeyman

:not-again:


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## Jarnhamar

> Zakaria Amara is a convicted terrorist, serving a life sentence for his role in a plot to murder scores of Canadians. And now, thanks to a Trudeau government bill passed through the Senate this week, Amara will soon be given the privilege of Canadian citizenship.



LOL

Give him some welfare while were at it.


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## PuckChaser

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I fear you're correct, as I believe the tools that voted in the tools will do so again in 2019.



Not if they keep pissing away the progressive/NDP vote by breaking promises. The NDP is gaining, without a leader. Same with the Tories.


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## The Bread Guy

From the _Toronto Star_, shared under the Fair Dealing provisions of the _Copyright Act (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-42)_ ...


> *Toronto 18 member shows no remorse: DiManno*
> 
> _Though he shows no signs of being rehabilitated, Fahim Ahmad will walk out of prison free and clear and un-monitored in eight months, writes Rosie DiManno._
> 
> How very easy it was to scoff at them, as many did, as some still do.
> 
> The Toronto 18: hapless wannabe terrorists. Couldn’t even organize a one-car tailgate party much less take Parliament hostage and behead the prime minister.
> 
> Those were but boastful aspirations, bravado stories they told each other whilst training in the woods, like weekend paintball warriors.
> 
> Nonsensical plans they revealed to an RCMP informant who — defence lawyers argued — may have nudged them towards grandiose plotting.
> 
> “Amateur does not equal not being dangerous,” that undercover operative, Mubin Shaikh, stresses, more than a decade on. “We’ve seen more than enough in the past 10 years to show what kind of damage a perceived bumbling idiot can actually do.
> 
> “So, people can remain in their denial. They were in denial 10 years ago. But seeing what’s happening with ISIS and everything else, I would hope that people would have a few more wits about themselves.’’
> 
> It doesn’t take an explosive or a suicide bomber or bristling weaponry to wreck havoc, as we were reminded once again over the weekend, with terrorist attacks in London, hardly a fortnight removed from the horror of Manchester — 22 killed, dozens more injured. And all they were doing was attending an Ariana Grande concert. Sometimes a vehicle aimed at strolling pedestrians is enough. An eight-inch knife wielded by a purposeful assailant, like the blade that stabbed an officer to death, among five killed, at Westminster in March. Go forth and rampage, ISIS — also known as Daesh and Islamic State — has urged. And too many delusional miscreants have obeyed.
> 
> The Toronto 18 long pre-dated ISIS, spawned by an earlier generation of ideological mass-murderers.
> 
> How very easy it was to scoff at them, as many did, as some still do.
> 
> The Toronto 18: hapless wannabe terrorists. Couldn’t even organize a one-car tailgate party much less take Parliament hostage and behead the prime minister.
> 
> Those were but boastful aspirations, bravado stories they told each other whilst training in the woods, like weekend paintball warriors.
> 
> Nonsensical plans they revealed to an RCMP informant who — defence lawyers argued — may have nudged them towards grandiose plotting.
> 
> “Amateur does not equal not being dangerous,” that undercover operative, Mubin Shaikh, stresses, more than a decade on. “We’ve seen more than enough in the past 10 years to show what kind of damage a perceived bumbling idiot can actually do.
> 
> “So, people can remain in their denial. They were in denial 10 years ago. But seeing what’s happening with ISIS and everything else, I would hope that people would have a few more wits about themselves.’’
> 
> It doesn’t take an explosive or a suicide bomber or bristling weaponry to wreck havoc, as we were reminded once again over the weekend, with terrorist attacks in London, hardly a fortnight removed from the horror of Manchester — 22 killed, dozens more injured. And all they were doing was attending an Ariana Grande concert. Sometimes a vehicle aimed at strolling pedestrians is enough. An eight-inch knife wielded by a purposeful assailant, like the blade that stabbed an officer to death, among five killed, at Westminster in March. Go forth and rampage, ISIS — also known as Daesh and Islamic State — has urged. And too many delusional miscreants have obeyed.
> 
> The Toronto 18 long pre-dated ISIS, spawned by an earlier generation of ideological mass-murderers.


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## The Bread Guy

Always something -- bumped with the latest ....


> A former member of a terrorist group that plotted truck bombings in Toronto to protest Canada’s military mission in Afghanistan is appealing a government decision to place him on the no-fly list.
> 
> Saad Gaya was part of the Toronto 18 terrorism conspiracy that was thwarted by police in 2006. He was released from prison and has become a lawyer who speaks against extremist violence.
> 
> He discovered he was on Canada’s no-fly list when he tried to board a flight to Montreal, where he was to attend a meeting at the Centre for the Prevention of Radicalization Leading to Violence.
> 
> After the government rejected his internal appeal last November, Gaya filed a case in the Federal Court in January seeking to be taken off the no-fly list, newly-released documents show ...


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