# DRILL ON THE PARADE SQUARE



## morley33 (18 Feb 2010)

HI I AM DOING MY SOLDIERS QUALIFICATION COURSE RIGHT NOW BUT I AM STILL HAVING TROUBLE REMEMBERING
ALL THE DRILL,OPEN ORDER MARCH,CLOSE ORDER MARCH ETC.
IF ANYONE HAS ANY USEFUL INFO OR ANY PICTURES WITH THE DRILL SO I CAN MEMORIZE THEM THANX.


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## FDO (18 Feb 2010)

You should be able to download the CFP 265. It's the drill manual. Use it, practice it in your room or get a couple of your platoon mates to go out to he drill deck for a while every night and eventually it will become second nature. There are no quick fixes or easy tricks. Practice is the best way to learn it.


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## Nfld Sapper (18 Feb 2010)

morley33 said:
			
		

> HI I AM DOING MY SOLDIERS QUALIFICATION COURSE RIGHT NOW BUT I AM STILL HAVING TROUBLE REMEMBERING
> ALL THE DRILL,OPEN ORDER MARCH,CLOSE ORDER MARCH ETC.
> IF ANYONE HAS ANY USEFUL INFO OR ANY PICTURES WITH THE DRILL SO I CAN MEMORIZE THEM THANX.



How about asking your course staff for help? I am sure your MCpl/Sgt would be happy to get you squared away with drill...


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## Fusaki (19 Feb 2010)

> How about asking your course staff for help? I am sure your MCpl/Sgt would be happy to get you squared away with drill...



Personally, I'd prefer to be the grey man on course....

Morely, here's the PAM.  It's everything you wanted to know about CF Drill:
http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/Downloads/cfp201.pdf

And then just do what FDO said.  Grab your buddies and call drill for each other.  

And please, take the CAPS Lock off and write like you're Grade 10 educated.  That means full sentences, grammar, and punctuation.

Good luck!


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## a_majoor (19 Feb 2010)

Actually, even more critical than knowing the movement yourself is the sequence of the drill lesson. Breaking the movement down and teaching each part correctly is the key to a good drill lesson:

Sequence of a Drill Period

1.	Place squad in a suitable formation

2.	Conduct a review of the previous related lesson

Lesson

a.	STAND squad at ease

b. 	STATE the movement to be taught, the aim, reason and where it fits in

c.	STAND squad easy

d.	Demonstrate complete movement calling the time

e.	Break the movement into NUMBERS

f.	Demonstrate and explain squad 1.  Ensure squad has no questions

g.	Practice collectively, individually and collectively (at least 3X each)

h.	Teach subsequent movements as per sub-paragraph c to g

i.	Demonstrate complete movement again

j.	Practice with instructor calling the time (at lest 3X)

k.	Practice with squad calling the time (at least 3X)

l.	Practice with squad judging the time (at least 3X)

m.	State that you will, and then conduct the test (at least 3X)

n.	STAND the squad at ease

o.	Restate sub-paragraph b

p.	State the level of achievement

q.	State the next drill lesson, when it will take place and the name of the instructor


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## vonGarvin (19 Feb 2010)

[wiping tears away from my eye]
Seeing drill lesson formats always makes me weep tears of joy!  It's great being a member of *The Royal  Canadian  Regiment*!


;D

Pro Patria!


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## OldSolduer (19 Feb 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> [wiping tears away from my eye]
> Seeing drill lesson formats always makes me weep tears of joy!  It's great being a member of *The Royal  Canadian  Regiment*!
> 
> 
> ...



Almost as good as being a member of Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry! ;D

VP


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Feb 2010)

Shoulda known that this thread would attract rock painters and princesses like moths to a flame 8) ;D


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## FDO (19 Feb 2010)

No thanks. Give me the "Sailor Shuffle" any day. Too much foot pounding and screaminig turns me off my soup!! ;D


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## OldSolduer (19 Feb 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Shoulda known that this thread would attract rock painters and princesses like moths to a flame 8) ;D



Now that's funny!! We're off topic. 

The only cure for bad drill is more practice under the supervision of a competent NCO.


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## Edward Campbell (19 Feb 2010)

Mid Aged Silverback said:
			
		

> Now that's funny!! We're off topic.
> 
> The only cure for bad drill is more practice under the supervision of a competent NCO.




Agreed.

And, at the risk of entering the Regiment vs. regiment _quarrel, fray and disorder_ yet again, drill matters.

Drill induces teamwork, pride in the team - section, platoon, company, battalion and so on, right up to and including the country itself - and pride in oneself.

Drill - the ability to execute drill movements correctly (which equals _smartly_) sets us apart from the _huddled masses_; and I say "us" because I can still see the _drill_, and all it implies, in 70 and 80 year old men.

Good drill is learned by practice and focus, it is not _natural_ for most of us, but, with training and focus it becomes second nature - and when it does it becomes easier to learn and master other military skills, many of which require attention to detail and perseverance.

If you need help: ask for it. Time spent crushing gravel, learning to be _smart_, learning to take instinctive actions, is time well spent.


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## gaspasser (19 Feb 2010)

Drill...???


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Feb 2010)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Drill...???



You know. Those get togethers on an Air Force base, where you get all the remusters from the combat arms to put on the really good uniform with the tie. Then they all line up and follow each other around while the guy on the stage salutes them. Sometimes they even have music. ;D


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## MARS (19 Feb 2010)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You know. Those get togethers on an Air Force base, where you get all the remusters from the combat arms to put on the really good uniform with the tie. Then they all line up and follow each other around while the guy on the stage salutes them. Sometimes they even have music. ;D



 ;D

I don't see the soup in there.  Where's the soup???


			
				FDO said:
			
		

> No thanks. Give me the "Sailor Shuffle" any day. Too much foot pounding and screaminig turns me off my soup!! ;D


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## Old Sweat (19 Feb 2010)

Drill indeed has its place as a means to an end, and not as the be all and end all of military achievement. I don't know of any trail or study that linked competence at foot and arms drill with proficiency in weapons handling, gun or crew drill, the ability to handle complicated communications gear, etc, etc. Can  anyone throw some light on this?

I do know of one instance where drill did pay off. When the Federal Republic of Germany emered from the occupation, one of the challenges it faced was the plight of its native First World War veterans in what had been German East Africa. One of the hurdles before pensions could be granted was to identify the recipients as the reconds had been lost/destroyed. The solution arrived at was to muster the applicants and interview them individually. Part of the interview was to parade the prospective recipient complete with a wooden rifle and put him through the manual of arms. Virtually all of them performed splendidly and were granted a pernsion on the spot.

I could relate other instances of where drill did not achieve its aim, but that may be for a later post.


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## OldSolduer (19 Feb 2010)

Drill has its place, that is on the square.

It's purpose is:

Instill a sense of immediate obedience 
Instill discipline - for instance, if a mosquito is biting you, you don't move to hit it
Instill a sense of pride and belonging
Instill Teamwork.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Feb 2010)

You forgot one:
                    Gives you something to do on a Bde parade in Calgary in August for 90 mins while the reviewing officer sits in the mess and has his third "just one more" drink.


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## Fusaki (19 Feb 2010)

It instils the suck, is what it does.


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## aesop081 (19 Feb 2010)

Mid Aged Silverback said:
			
		

> Drill has its place, that is on the square.
> 
> It's purpose is:
> 
> ...



I can think of quite a few ways of accomplishing all those things that would be a more effective use of the limited ammount of training time that is available.

Drill is an antiquated way........

We teach drill because we do parades formations for various occasions, let us stop kidding ourselves.


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## a_majoor (19 Feb 2010)

While Douglas Bland's article "No Time for Drill" (Major Douglas Bland in “No Time for Drill,” Canadian Defence. Quarterly, Autumn 1981, pp. 25-28.) was quite influential for me, no one has articulated a convincing alternative that can take the place of parade square drill *within the same parameters of time and resources*.

Yes, "outward bound" type training could accomplish the same purpose, and given the limited time and resources we do have there is an argument to put all the time towards fieldcraft, weaponscraft and so on, but drill is simple and effective (and has been in use since the _Res Publica Roma_; even the Spartans had a form of drill), so there is an argument to keep drill as an important part of training.


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## Michael OLeary (19 Feb 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I can think of quite a few ways of accomplishing all those things that would be a more effective use of the limited ammount of training time that is available.
> 
> Drill is an antiquated way........
> 
> We teach drill because we do parades formations for various occasions, let us stop kidding ourselves.



So, if we didn't teach any drill, because it's so obviously outdated and useless, how would you suggest we organize 5 or 6 hundred troops for something like a change of command parade or to form an honour guard gaggle for a royal visit?

Since we're suggesting we do away with anything that reeks of pomp and ceremony like drill, I guess we can also dispose of dress uniforms, medal and awards, colours, and all those other things we apparently do just for show.


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## aesop081 (19 Feb 2010)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> So, if we didn't teach any drill, because it's so obviously outdated and useless, how would you suggest we organize 5 or 6 hundred troops for something like a change of command parade or to form an honour guard gaggle for a royal visit?



My god, it would be a disaster wouldnt it !!!!

Not. If the stated aim of drill is to instill discipline and teamwork then there are more effective ways of doing it that actualy have to do with the jobs a soldier will have to do. I didnt learn teamwork from drill. I didnt ( and still dont) get my sense of pride from parades.



> Since we're suggesting we do away with anything that reeks of pomp and ceremony like drill, I guess we can also dispose of dress uniforms, medal and awards, colours, and all those other things we apparently do just for show.



Rush to judgment doesnt suit you. I never stated that we should do away with drill. We will never get rid of parades so we will continue to do parade drill. What i stated is that drill as a means of teaching teamwork, sense of pride and all the other things mentioned is an argument that was valid at one point but that there are far more effective ways to do it and ways that are more interesting to soldiers ( except for The RCR of course).



> I remember reading a book about RCAF student pilots complaining about the drill during the war. The Sergeant snapped back, "How do you expect to fly in formation if you can't even walk in one!"



Another nice historical anectode, thanks for sharing. I fly regularly with pilots who can barely look like they are in the military on the parade square but they understand and perform formation flying quite well.

They also used to force pilots to learn piano ( WW 1 i beleive) so why dont we go back to that. Would save modern day sqns from havig to burn the mess piano on repeated occasions.


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## Michael OLeary (19 Feb 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Rush to judgment doesnt suit you. I never stated that we should do away with drill. We will never get rid of parades so we will continue to do parade drill. What i stated is that drill as a means of teaching teamwork, sense of pride and all the other things mentioned is an argument that was valid at one point but that *there are far more effective ways to do it and ways that are more interesting to soldiers* ( except for The RCR of course).



You mentioned this a few times.  There's no reason why they can't be done as well as drill. After all, the Army's going to need to find something to do once the combat mission in Afghanistan ends and the money for lengthy pre-deployment training dries up.  For further thought and discussion, what are your suggestions?


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## OldSolduer (19 Feb 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> You forgot one:
> Gives you something to do on a Bde parade in Calgary in August for 90 mins while the reviewing officer sits in the mess and has his third "just one more" drink.



Which is ethically and morally wrong. What was his name again? PM me


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## mariomike (19 Feb 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Another nice historical anectode, thanks for sharing.



It was was just a funny little anecdote I remembered from a light-hearted book I read years ago. As I said, these were pilot recruits. Presumably, experienced pilots were excused.  I watched "Captains of the Clouds" the other night ( with Billy Bishop awarding wings! ). I guess it jogged my memory.
I've always been impressed by military drill.  
When the military parades, it allows us civilians to show our appreciation for the work they do.
When I drilled as a Reservist, it boosted my confidence.
That's probably why I later took dancing lessons!


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## OldSolduer (20 Feb 2010)

Maybe some of you think I'm a dinosaur MWO who's only purpose is to jack the troops up. Let me assure you I am not.

Drill, however, is absolutely essential during BMQ and SQ no matter what trade you are.

After trades training, drill still serves a purpose. I know some of you here are not Army, so bear with me.

Every morning in 2 VP we had a parade. Every afternoon we had dismissal parade. This ensured that the troops were where they were supposed to be. And if they were not, the leaders were held accountable.

That is one more reason we do drill. It doesn't hurt you (unless you try hard, and I have).


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## aesop081 (20 Feb 2010)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> There's no reason why they can't be done as well as drill.



You are right. My issue is not with teaching drill, it is with the mindset that drill teaches a soldier anything other than what to do when on parade.



> After all, the Army's going to need to find something to do once the combat mission in Afghanistan ends and the money for lengthy pre-deployment training dries up.



Thankfully, my line of work was operationaly employed before Afghanistan and will continue to do so afterwards.




> For further thought and discussion, what are your suggestions?



I did not learn teamwork, pride in the CF, the value of hardwork and discipline from drill. What i got from it was that drill sucks and i now have bad knees and a bad back.

I would rather sports be used as a means of instilling teamwork. tell a platoon of recruits they will get a weeknd off if the beat the other platoon at ball hockey and they will learn fast to work as a team and will be proud of their accomplishment.

The obstacle course can also be used. finish the course is x amount of time or less and get (insert reward here).

The bonus in these examples is that you not only accomplish stated goals but you also do much needed work to recruit's physical fitness. There are other things that can be done but you can see where i am going with this i am sure.

Tough tasks that push a group to the limit and beyond are what bring about a sense of pride in accomplishment and confidence in one's abilities, not looking good when some new Colonel reports to work.




> Maybe some of you think I'm a dinosaur MWO who's only purpose is to jack the troops up.



Nope, never thought that at all.



> is absolutely essential during BMQ and SQ no matter what trade you are.



It is necessary but only in the sense that they need to know where to stand and how to move on parade.



> I know some of you here are not Army, so bear with me.



I spent twice as many years in the combat arms as i have in the air force.



> That is one more reason we do drill.



I accomplish the same each and every day without one ounce of drill involved.


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## OldSolduer (20 Feb 2010)

Then if you are Cbt Arms, or were, then you understand why we have parades every day. I know you don't need it all that much as your crews are small when compared to a rifle company.


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## aesop081 (20 Feb 2010)

Mid Aged Silverback said:
			
		

> why we have parades every day.



And those reasons have little to do with with pride, teamwork, etc....

I have a section of 23 and i know where they are without having to form them up in 3 ranks every morning. My flight commander manages to know where his sub-unit is, what they are doing and assign tasks without having morning roll call.....

So back to my point : Lets stop pretending that drill is a means of teaching a soldier anything that has tactical value and accept that it a means of making sure he/she know where how to stand so we can make sure he/she is at work and what to do when we have a parade.

Anyways, i'm going against the grain here so, enough of my rantings.


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## FastEddy (20 Feb 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You are right. My issue is not with teaching drill, it is with the mindset that drill teaches a soldier anything other than what to do when on parade.
> 
> Thankfully, my line of work was operationaly employed before Afghanistan and will continue to do so afterwards.
> 
> ...



Then by logic reasoning, if Drill and the Parade Square gave you "BAD KNEES AND A BAD BACK", then all you suggested would/shoud  KILL YOU .


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## aesop081 (20 Feb 2010)

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Then by logic reasoning, if Drill and the Parade Square gave you "BAD KNEES AND A BAD BACK", then all you suggested would/shoud  KILL YOU .



Thanks you for pointing that out. While drill in itself certainly did not single-handedly cause it, IMHO, it contributed to it. 17 years on, every parade is when i am most reminded of the damage caused by all those hard years.


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## Kat Stevens (20 Feb 2010)

Mid Aged Silverback said:
			
		

> Which is ethically and morally wrong. What was his name again? PM me



It was about '94ish, and to tell you the truth my mind has slipped a gear and can't recall the gentleman's name at all.  All I remember is that it did have a suck factor of 11.  They bussed half our regiment from Chilliwack for it.


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## QAD (20 Feb 2010)

Drill ???  

- A Navy guy


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## FastEddy (20 Feb 2010)

QAD said:
			
		

> Drill ???
> 
> - A Navy guy



Actually, the few Navy SD's (Service Detainees) we got , did very well and were quite  proficient in Drill. Also they were the least Problematic.

Whether this can be attributed to Training or Caliber of Personnel Selection. I'm not sure.


Cheers.


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## kratz (20 Feb 2010)

Where I am currently, we do not do very much drill. ie: Hands fall in, orders and announcements, then off to training.

At the start of the year we were at the base for range and CRR training. A handful of lower deckers were commenting on how crazy it was to march everywhere we went. We were not recruits, though I admit, we were passing their barracks and classrooms.

While I understand the frustration of those who commented on it, I agree it sure assisted in Ship's Company unity and camaraderie. Reading through this discussion, I appreciate the decision more why command chose to have us march.


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## stealthylizard (20 Feb 2010)

In 1VP, the extent of our drill for the most part is forming up in 3 ranks, attention, stand at east, and then dismissal.


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## kratz (20 Feb 2010)

I forgot my manners. Soup was always hot and on time too.


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## Michael OLeary (20 Feb 2010)

I hate doing a lot of parade square bashing as much as the next man, but I would challenge anyone to come up with a credible way to present a set of Colours to a battalion, to lay a wreath on Remembrance Day, to bury a fallen comrade, or to accept a valour award from the Governor General without having some degree of competence at drill.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Feb 2010)

QAD said:
			
		

> Drill ???
> 
> - A Navy guy



See post #12. Just change Air Force Base to Navy Yard ;D


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## mariomike (20 Feb 2010)

Drill is taken very seriously by the Emergency Services Honour Guards in Toronto. I believe all the Instructors are past or present members of the CF.


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## Nfld Sapper (20 Feb 2010)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> In 1VP, the extent of our drill for the most part is forming up in 3 ranks, attention, *stand at east*, and then dismissal.



New drill movement?

 ;D


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## c4th (20 Feb 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You are right. My issue is not with teaching drill, it is with the mindset that drill teaches a soldier anything other than what to do when on parade.



Drill is used today for the same reasons it has been used for millennia.  Until their is no reason to move a body of soldiers from point A so that they arrive at point B at the same time in the correct order or formation we will continue to teach and use drill.  Drill has always been tactical.  Clearing ground in two up has it's foundation in advance in review order.  Advancing to or withdrawling  battle is orderly because it has a foundation moving right or left in file or column of route.  Drill teaches soldiers to react immediately and instinctively to orders.  Drill teaches junior leaders to give clear and concise orders.  All of tactical value.  

I have not read the article that there is no time to teach drill but as an instructor of infantry soldiers If recruits did not come from BMQ knowing drill I would make the time to teach it to them for the sole reason that in the end it saves me time and saves unnecessary yelling.

Drill does not end at the edge of the parade square.  Drills are the nuts and bolts of much of what is done in the combat arms.  Thinking back to flying, their were drills there too.  I'm sure there still is.  At least it looks like there is whenever I get in and out of aircraft.



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> What i got from it was that drill sucks and i now have bad knees and a bad back..



You're doing it wrong 




			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I would rather sports be used as a means of instilling teamwork. tell a platoon of recruits they will get a weekend off if the beat the other platoon at ball hockey and they will learn fast to work as a team and will be proud of their accomplishment.
> 
> The obstacle course can also be used. finish the course is x amount of time or less and get (insert reward here)...



The beauty of drill is my executives while giving it don't include bribes.  I see no need to issue commands such as Move-To-The-Left-In-Threes-And-You'll-Get-A-Smoke-Break, or Quick-March-and-You'll-Get-A-Week-End-Off.  I issue commands and it happens.  Voila!  

Sports and obstacle courses have their place and is a good use of time for fitness and team building.  But not everyday can be grade 12 PE.  Injuries from physical training and sports far outstrip any earned on the parade square.  Sports keep MIR's on a five day work week not drill.

Do we need battalion parades every morning.  Probably not, but they are useful at least a couple of times a week.


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## aesop081 (20 Feb 2010)

Trust No One said:
			
		

> we will continue to teach and use drill.



Again, i never said we should stop teaching or stop using drill.



> Drill teaches junior leaders to give clear and concise orders.



Hardly. It teaches them to memorize commands and use them on parade. I learned to give clear and concise orders in training ( formal and informal) and on-the-job, not on the parade grounds or in drill class on my JNCO course.
  



> Drills are the nuts and bolts of much of what is done in the combat arms.



"drills" yes........"drill" no.




> Thinking back to flying, their were drills there too.  I'm sure there still is.



Yup there is. After more that 2200 flying hours i can honestly say that i did not learn to follow them due to any time spent in drill classes or a parade square. I learned to follow them by seeing what happens when you dont.





> I see no need to issue commands such as Move-To-The-Left-In-Threes-And-You'll-Get-A-Smoke-Break, or Quick-March-and-You'll-Get-A-Week-End-Off.



Not once did i suggest we do that.



> I issue commands and it happens.  Voila!



Yet i manage to accomplish the same thing daily ( my direction is followed). I am doing something wrong indeed.


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## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2010)

> .....and when it does it becomes easier to learn and master other military skills, *many of which require attention to detail and perseverance*



Shades of Warrant Angus Muise...... "Pay attention to detail, Sir, and the words of command for."


There is something immensely comforting about multiple heels (2 or 2000) striking the cobbles at the same time.  It drives you forward - even after years out of uniform.

Drill does indeed matter.


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## Kirkhill (20 Feb 2010)

Obvious I have only recently discovered this thread.  Its funny to see the usual suspects sticking to their various "party lines".  Sailors shuffle.  Airmen saunter.  Infanteers debate the merits of 110, 120 and 140 paces to the minute and the glories of "Check, drag, crack" vs "Halt, One, Two".

Memo to Michael O'Leary:  Refer this thread to bayonet thread and my suggestion to revert to the Spontoon.

For BMT issue Spontoon as personal weapon, perfect accompaniment for Close Order Drill.  It would also create nice little bodies of anti-riot troops.  ;D 


"To begin with the LDV (aka The Look, Dook and Vanish) were issued with 250,000 pikes - bayonets welded onto metal poles. "   Scroll about half way down in the text to see the reference.


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## Michael OLeary (20 Feb 2010)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Shades of Warrant Angus Muise......



Well, that just sent a shudder up my spine .....


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## kratz (20 Feb 2010)

I am being polite, thank goodness for CDN Aviator's posts.

WRT my Log Dept drill. The majority of the time, we have already done the spacing ect...that will already be comanded. Our DS check us as per normal and rarely find our department out of order. 

Do not disparage who carries his own pipe.


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## 1feral1 (20 Feb 2010)

morley33 said:
			
		

> HI I AM DOING MY SOLDIERS QUALIFICATION COURSE RIGHT NOW BUT I AM STILL HAVING TROUBLE REMEMBERING
> ALL THE DRILL,OPEN ORDER MARCH,CLOSE ORDER MARCH.......................



The Aussie calling out the time (in one's head) for these two movements are entirely different, but even after 34 years, I can still remember the CF times for these movements, it was 1-1-1-2! 

Fear not, it will get drilled into you like it did me, and 34 yrs later you'll still remember.

OWDU


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## a_majoor (20 Feb 2010)

While I agree fully with the idea that sports or the obstacle course (or long distance orienteering, or competitions to answer regimental history questions etc. etc.) are great ways to build team work and morale, most require a much greater investment in time and resources than 1X NCO and a piece of relatively flat ground.

There are lots of Reserve armouries which may once have been out in the boonies but are now surrounded by urban sprawl and have no dedicated sports fields or obstacle courses. I have been on bases where trying to book an obstacle course was a pretty remarkable exercise in overcoming (bureaucratic) obstacles in it's own right.

Drill has lasted thousands of years because it is a quick, cheap and effective means of teaching teamwork and obedience. Douglas Bland's argument against teaching parade square drill was based on the fact parade square drill no longer has an immediate tactical application (our parade square drill is evolved from tactical evolutions from the age of black powder warfare, and any British officer or NCO under the Duke or Wellington would recognize it [and probably be very critical of how we do it as well!]). Never the less, the mental attitudes and conditioning are important underlying factors in performing modern battle drills.


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