# RCMP First Contract



## lenaitch (9 Jul 2021)

I don't think this has been posted before, but if ratified, it looks like they have negotiated a pretty decent first contract that brings the RCMP members back in line with their peers and might help slow the bleeding.









						RCMP union first-ever tentative deal with Ottawa could mean $20,000 hike for constables
					

Constables will see their maximum salary jump from $86,110 as of April 2016 to $106,576 in April 2022 if the agreement is ratified




					nationalpost.com


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## FJAG (9 Jul 2021)

There also seems to be a good piece of backpay with it my daughter tells me.

🍻


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## Halifax Tar (9 Jul 2021)

Great now the basement savers are going to get upset and want a pay raise now too...


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## brihard (9 Jul 2021)

Still needs to be ratified... But there’s no reason to expect it won’t be.

RCMP pay has stagnated for years, and recruiting and retention have been suffering badly. Every year an RCMP member has stayed RCMP has come at a cost of $10k-$15k in contrast with what they could make with another police service- with many Mounties posted to areas with very limited opportunity for spousal employment, and many living in RCMP accommodations with no opportunity to build home equity.

This contract, or something like it, was an inevitability once the RCMP won the right to unionize in the Supreme Court in 2015.


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## Haggis (9 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Still needs to be ratified... But there’s no reason to expect it won’t be.
> 
> RCMP pay has stagnated for years, and recruiting and retention have been suffering badly. Every year an RCMP member has stayed RCMP has come at a cost of $10k-$15k in contrast with what they could make with another police service- with many Mounties posted to areas with very limited opportunity for spousal employment, and many living in RCMP accommodations with no opportunity to build home equity.
> 
> This contract, or something like it, was an inevitability once the RCMP won the right to unionize in the Supreme Court in 2015.


How do you see this impacting the future of contract policing?  The cost to the provinces and municipalities will obviously rise, as the linked article points out.  I know there has been talk out west for years of forming new municipal and/or provincial police services, likely cornerstoned by RCMP members who don't want to go elsewhere.

(My agency is going onto 4 years without a contract and the TB is playing hardball this time around.  Hopefully this helps our negotiations.)


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## OldSolduer (9 Jul 2021)

Good for the RCMP rank and file!!! 

I am not holding out hope that the RCMP case will help ours. We are the red headed step kids in the Law Enforcement Community. Especially in Manitoba where everything seems to be done on the cheap.


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## mariomike (9 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> This contract, or something like it, was an inevitability once the RCMP won the right to unionize in the Supreme Court in 2015.


That's great news, Brihard. 

Toronto police, fire and ambulance all unionized on three separate dates in 1917 and 1918. Just took the RCMP a little longer to get there. 



Haggis said:


> The cost to the provinces and municipalities will obviously rise, as the linked article points out.


For reference to that discussion,


> Escalating Emergency Services Labour Costs and the Ontario Taxpayers’ Ability to Pay





			http://danielbanks.ca/deepriver/fire/Ability_to_Pay_Position_Paper_2011.pdf


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## brihard (9 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> How do you see this impacting the future of contract policing?  The cost to the provinces and municipalities will obviously rise, as the linked article points out.  I know there has been talk out west for years of forming new municipal and/or provincial police services, likely cornerstoned by RCMP members who don't want to go elsewhere.
> 
> (My agency is going onto 4 years without a contract and the TB is playing hardball this time around.  Hopefully this helps our negotiations.)


Anyone else looking to set up an alternate police service will still need to deal with the reality that they will have to pay competitively. RCMP contract policing is still 10% subsidized by the feds. RCMP still bring all their own institutional infrastructure. That’s damned hard to replace.

Best is to watch Surrey and see what happens there.

In Alberta, watch for increased shift of responsibility to the Sheriffs- and upwards wage pressure.


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## medicineman (9 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> In Alberta, watch for increased shift of responsibility to the Sheriffs- and upwards wage pressure.


My wife's son is a CVSE officer in AB - this is happening a lot to his agency as they're shifting responsibility to other law enforcement/Sherriff  operations.  Suspicion is the government is trying to make their own lower cost provincial police service at the expense of the officers already employed...their pay hasn't changed in relation to levels of responsibility.  They went from an unarmed agency to armed in the last year and a half, gone from a specialized agency to one with broader scope,  have taken on Sherriff responsibilities and are spending more time in court than previously.

🍿


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## brihard (9 Jul 2021)

medicineman said:


> My wife's son is a CVSE officer in AB - this is happening a lot to his agency as they're shifting responsibility to other law enforcement/Sherriff  operations.  Suspicion is the government is trying to make their own lower cost provincial police service at the expense of the officers already employed...their pay hasn't changed in relation to levels of responsibility.  They went from an unarmed agency to armed in the last year and a half, gone from a specialized agency to one with broader scope,  have taken on Sherriff responsibilities and are spending more time in court than previously.
> 
> 🍿


CBSA got a 17 percent raise after they armed. There are comparables that an arbitrator can use if their unions push that.


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## medicineman (9 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> CBSA got a 17 percent raise after they armed. There are comparables that an arbitrator can use if their unions push that.


They've just been asked to take a rollback of a few percent, much like nurses and others in the province (except MLA's I'm sure)...


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## OldSolduer (9 Jul 2021)

medicineman said:


> (except MLA's I'm sure)...


Do not forget our Members of Parliament in that group


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## brihard (9 Jul 2021)

medicineman said:


> They've just been asked to take a rollback of a few percent, much like nurses and others in the province (except MLA's I'm sure)...


Alberta is going after a law enforcement salary rollback? Wow. That’s, uh... bold. That will kill any recruiting to a provincial police service right there. The nurse salary rollback is equally mind blowing.

Alberta had decades to build up sovereign wealth and to prepare for an economic transition. Yet they still remain without a provincial sales tax. Something’s gonna give, and I don’t think it’ll be nurse or law enforcement salaries.


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## medicineman (9 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Alberta is going after a law enforcement salary rollback? Wow. That’s, uh... bold. That will kill any recruiting to a provincial police service right there. The nurse salary rollback is equally mind blowing.
> 
> Alberta had decades to build up sovereign wealth and to prepare for an economic transition. Yet they still remain without a provincial sales tax. Something’s gonna give, and I don’t think it’ll be nurse or law enforcement salaries.


Now that PA's in Alberta are regulated, I've considered moving there so my wife can be nearer to her kids/grand kid, as well as my eldest being a Strat.  Watching what's going on in health care there and elsewhere, I'm holding back...apart from there not being a lot of jobs currently.  At their high rate of pay, I still would take about a $7-10/hr wage cut, assuming I'd get the high rate.


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## mariomike (9 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> We are the red headed step kids in the Law Enforcement Community.


My opinion only, but I believe part-timers bring any organization down. Not referring to yours specifically. Don't know if you have them.

I worked part-time for Ontario Corrections many years ago. The impression I had was that you care more about your full-time career than your part-time or post-retirement gig.

RCMP, OPP and Metro Police do not have part-timers. My employer didn't either. Neither did TFS or TTC for that matter.


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## Colin Parkinson (9 Jul 2021)

My friend who is a young Constable with 7 years in is stoked, a 20% pay raise with a young family is good news. I also told him that from now on he is buying the beers...

He works in Surrey, this really screws the new "Surrey PD" as pay was the only thing they had to offer over the RCMP, funny thing the new RCMP police union, copyrighted all the terms related to "Surrey Police Department", so Surrey had to buy those off of the union, a bit of a FU to the mayor.


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## QV (9 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Alberta is going after a law enforcement salary rollback? Wow. That’s, uh... bold. That will kill any recruiting to a provincial police service right there. The nurse salary rollback is equally mind blowing.
> 
> Alberta had decades to build up sovereign wealth and to prepare for an economic transition. Yet they still remain without a provincial sales tax. Something’s gonna give, and I don’t think it’ll be nurse or law enforcement salaries.


I've read that Alberta had the highest paid health care workers in the country which was mainly as a result of the booming resource sector and the government revenues that flowed from that. I believe most wages across the board in AB were just higher than the national average. With the resource sector being stifled and the loss of revenue/investment that came with that, it's no surprise there are rollbacks in areas that were typically higher than the national average.  

I suppose AB could implement a provincial tax on everyone so healthcare workers in AB can still be paid higher than their peer groups everywhere else in the country... but I don't know how that would look to those being taxed. 

Or another way of looking at it; resulting from LPC/NDP/Grn successful opposition to resource development, the wages in public sector jobs are rolled back to more normal national average levels due to lack of surplus revenue from a weakened energy economy. 

I don't know which option is the least worst from an optics/vote getting standpoint.

I don't think the RCMP raise will hurt the movement for an Alberta Provincial Police force (like Que and Ont already have) but I'm sure glad they got the raise.


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## medicineman (9 Jul 2021)

QV said:


> I've read that Alberta had the highest paid health care workers in the country which was mainly as a result of the booming resource sector and the government revenues that flowed from that. I believe most wages across the board in AB were just higher than the national average. With the resource sector being stifled and the loss of revenue/investment that came with that, it's no surprise there are rollbacks in areas that were typically higher than the national average.


As a PA, I'm paid more in MB than my equivalent in AB by about 7$/hour.   My licensing fee in AB is more expensive than in MB - reason I haven't chosen to register there (unless I actually decide to move).  The docs there have been in street fight with AHS for awhile after the minister unilaterally dissolved their master agreement.  The nurses are facing a 3% rollback, though I had an enraged Tweet in my feed regarding a 3% clawback which was apparently a bit of BS...or maybe not.


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## CBH99 (9 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Alberta is going after a law enforcement salary rollback? Wow. That’s, uh... bold. That will kill any recruiting to a provincial police service right there. The nurse salary rollback is equally mind blowing.
> 
> Alberta had decades to build up sovereign wealth and to prepare for an economic transition. Yet they still remain without a provincial sales tax. Something’s gonna give, and I don’t think it’ll be nurse or law enforcement salaries.


As frustrated as the rest of the country is about the above, I think I can safely say on behalf of other Albertans that we are equally mind-blown and significantly more pissed about our change of fortune!  And yes, it absolutely is 'our fault' as a province.

On the one hand, we had decades of big money coming into government.  At one point our provincial debt was paid off, and every single Albertan was receiving a cheque for $200 'just because'.  We had plenty of time after that to look at the future, look at where the world was going, invest accordingly, and set ourselves up for success.  While agriculture is a fairly steady industry, it doesn't bring in anywhere near the kind of money that oil does/did.  (Having Saudi Arabia own the Canadian Wheat Board doesn't help...)

On the other hand, I don't think anybody foresaw the price of oil dropping as quickly/dramatically as it did - or a federal government that is openly hostile to the oil & gas industry.  Those things could have been *somewhat* mitigated if we hadn't so arrogantly assumed "It's oil, this party is never going to end!" - and started investing/diversifying/planning for the future.  The future just came a lot faster than anybody here suspected.


As for Alberta provincial law enforcement, we are slowly going in that direction.  Just to clarify again - I am a peace officer, not a police officer.  But I do work for SolGen (Solicitor Generals Office) who does run the Sheriffs, provincial Corrections, CVSE, and a variety of joint units.  None of this is official, but I can echo a few of the posts made above:

-  The Sheriffs Branch has had a traffic section for ages (Highway Patrol) who's #1 purpose - even if not publicly stated - is to issue violation tickets/summons, and generate revenue for the province.  Yes, this does make the highways safer - but from the perspective of the provincial government, they like the revenue side.

-  Sheriffs and RCMP have had joint units for ages also, throughout the province.  This applies to traffic enforcement, but also at the higher levels with joint surveillance units, ASIRT, specialized investigation services, etc.

- The decision to arm CVSE officers was a good call, and one that is long overdue in my opinion.  I did a practicum with CVSE while I was in school, and those officers find themselves in some extremely isolated areas, while working alone.  Having the safety of a firearm if the need should arise is a good call, and guaranteed it will save someone's life over the next few years.  (Plenty of stories internally on situations where CVSE being armed could have been extremely beneficial.)

^ It also makes sense to expand their scope somewhat, to be able to assist RCMP and Sheriff traffic units.  I've witnessed first hand drivers driving erratically, plates registered as stolen, or random 'road situations' where they didn't have the mandate or support to do anything about it.  All they could do was notify dispatch, and hopefully dispatch would call the local RCMP station & forward the message. 

- Staff College trains a variety of provincial branches, most notably Sheriffs and Corrections.  CVSE officers still do their training at Lethbridge College, if I am not mistaken?  The CVSE branch does have an extremely thorough and impressive training program, I was quite surprised.  (And truth be told, I probably couldn't pass it.  The technical knowledge those officers have is pretty amazing.)  They have also won several Canada/US competitions in their field.


Alberta isn't in a financial position to start up it’s own provincial police service.  Expanding the duties or scopes of the services we do have is a good way to bolster enforcement & available units, without actually spending much money.  

Having the Sheriffs focusing on traffic, for example, and able to make arrests on warrants & charge for more CC stuff is a good start.  If CVSE is up for the tasks, all the better.

Our province does love to waste money.  It’s mind boggling.  But I think even the powers at me know we aren’t in a financial position to replace the RCMP with Sheriff Branch just yet.  The fact that the feds pay 10% of the cost is a pretty attractive perk, too.


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## dapaterson (9 Jul 2021)

This is not the first time Albertans have prayed "Please God, give us another oil boom, and we promise this time we won't piss it away."


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## blacktriangle (9 Jul 2021)

I hope this goes through for them. Long overdue.


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## lenaitch (9 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> My opinion only, but I believe part-timers bring any organization down. Not referring to yours specifically. Don't know if you have them.
> 
> I worked part-time for Ontario Corrections many years ago. The impression I had was that you care more about your full-time career than your part-time or post-retirement gig.
> 
> RCMP, OPP and Metro Police do not have part-timers. My employer didn't either. Neither did TFS or TTC for that matter.


Actually, the OPP has a few.  Since policing of organized municipalities is done by cost recovery (contract or non-contract), if a municipality has some spare cash or gets some kind of grant funding, they can choose to fund a part-timer.  They are often used for the D.A.R.E. program or community services/media relations or, the very odd time, supplemental patrol (foot, downtown, weekend, etc.).  They are always retired members.  On the civilian side, there are many areas with less-than-full-time staff.


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## mariomike (9 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Actually, the OPP has a few.  Since policing of organized municipalities is done by cost recovery (contract or non-contract), if a municipality has some spare cash or gets some kind of grant funding, they can choose to fund a part-timer.  They are often used for the D.A.R.E. program or community services/media relations or, the very odd time, supplemental patrol (foot, downtown, weekend, etc.).  They are always retired members.  On the civilian side, there are many areas with less-than-full-time staff.


We have a few things to keep our retired members involved. But, it's less than full pay - and definitely nothing to do with 9-1-1 operations.


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## brihard (9 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> My opinion only, but I believe part-timers bring any organization down. Not referring to yours specifically. Don't know if you have them.
> 
> I worked part-time for Ontario Corrections many years ago. The impression I had was that you care more about your full-time career than your part-time or post-retirement gig.
> 
> RCMP, OPP and Metro Police do not have part-timers. My employer didn't either. Neither did TFS or TTC for that matter.


I missed this post. Regarding RCMP- not accurate. The RCMP has a reservist program comprising former Regular Members, usually augmenting a pension. Some work full time on fixed, limited duration contracts providing relief staffing to general duty detachments. Others working a few days a week or a month in security type roles at certain protected sites. Others draw on investigative skills and augment plainclothes investigative units, though this isn’t as common. But absolutely, the RCMP have some part time members.


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## mariomike (9 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> The RCMP has a reservist program comprising former Regular Members, usually augmenting a pension.



Lenaitch said,


> They are always retired members.



I should have been more specific. I wasn't referring to retired Regular members.

I meant people hired off the street as part-time police officers.


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## QV (12 Jul 2021)

CBH99 said:


> On the other hand, I don't think anybody foresaw the price of oil dropping as quickly/dramatically as it did - or a federal government that is openly hostile to the oil & gas industry.  Those things could have been *somewhat* mitigated if we hadn't so arrogantly assumed "It's oil, this party is never going to end!" - and started *investing/diversifying/planning* for the future.  The future just came a lot faster than anybody here suspected.


Every time I see this "Alberta hasn't diversified" notion I wonder if anyone knows how much O&G makes up of the Alberta economy? I guess it's a lot less than most think as a percentage, but the value it provided to government coffers was immense.  And look now, prices are on the rise again.


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## Eaglelord17 (12 Jul 2021)

Good for them even though I am dead set against the raise. Everyone else should have been going the other way, instead the tax payers will be paying more for the same service and it will be the taxpayer that suffers. Another example of the slow but steady creep of government benefits and wages well the private sector stagnates. 

Not only that but in a time of extreme debt and out of control spending this is the opposite of what we need as a country when the belt should be tightened, taxes raised, and jobs cut to bring us back to fiscal responsibility.


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## Good2Golf (12 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Not only that but in a time of extreme debt and out of control spending this is the opposite of what we need as a country when the belt should be tightened, taxes raised, and jobs cut to bring us back to fiscal responsibility.


 
Maybe the belt needs to be tightened on all the bumpf handed out to everyone and their dog, not just on the backs of RCMP officers being paid below-median rates?  

The Feds have committed enough $000,000,000s at friends and family (literally), like WE, etc. that any makeup pay for RCMP wouldn’t even show up in the decimal places as a rounding error.


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## mariomike (12 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Everyone else should have been going the other way, instead the tax payers will be paying more for the same service and it will be the taxpayer that suffers.


Perhaps the question should be reframed from, `I don't have it, so they shouldn't either,' to `they have it – why don't I?'

It sounds like that is how the RCMP union looked at it. Rather than cannibalizing gains made by other working people doing the same job.

It's not a race to the bottom.


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## brihard (12 Jul 2021)

The rationale for police pay has been discussed elsewhere, no sense repeating.

Voting for the contract by members of the union started today. It will pass with an overwhelming majority. This will staunch the bleed and rejuvenate recruiting, and will tide the membership over through the next couple years of working to sort out matters like staffing, the promotional process, etc. Essentially this protects the RCMP from a Human Resources collapse brought about by limited recruiting, bottom of the barrel applicants, and a hemmorhage of experienced police to other services. This contract will be ratified before the end of July.


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## Eaglelord17 (12 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Maybe the belt needs to be tightened on all the bumpf handed out to everyone and their dog, not just on the backs of RCMP officers being paid below-median rates?
> 
> The Feds have committed enough $000,000,000s at friends and family (literally), like WE, etc. that any makeup pay for RCMP wouldn’t even show up in the decimal places as a rounding error.


Ok and just because our government has some corruption and incompetency does that mean we should just throw money away for nothing? If you follow my posts I am pretty much for everyone in the public service (including the MPs and such) getting a pay cut and bringing about fiscal responsibility we so desperately need as a country. I also dislike handouts and the many other expenses we are failing to pay for at the moment (hence the national debt). 


mariomike said:


> Perhaps the question should be reframed from, `I don't have it, so they shouldn't either,' to `they have it – why don't I?'
> 
> It sounds like that is how the RCMP union looked at it. Rather than cannibalizing gains made by other working people.
> 
> It's not a race to the bottom.


Its not a race to the top climbing over the backs of those who pay your wages either. Currently the government is killing industry in Canada, raising the cost of living with things such as the carbon tax, increasing the CPP and EI payments (another 550$ out of my pocket each year right there as a increase in 1 year, mainly to pay for the increase in benefits being provided to people who never paid those increases in the first place), etc. Explain to me how adding more government spending, which will ultimately be paid from my pockets (or more likely my children's with the way we simply accrue debt and pass it on), is going to help me? When your salary is already more than the household average for Canada with a stellar pension and benefits, I really don't feel that much sympathy about how much they were being paid. 

No point in arguing this point though as we have both been here before, and both know where the other stands.


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## Good2Golf (12 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> No point in arguing this point though as we have both been here before, and both know where the other stands.



Yeah, hopefully the RCMP don’t get that raise and public servants at all provincial and federal levels also get their pay clawed back.  In fact, maybe a full-on Marxist-based equity program is in order…


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## CBH99 (12 Jul 2021)

QV said:


> Every time I see this "Alberta hasn't diversified" notion I wonder if anyone knows how much O&G makes up of the Alberta economy? I guess it's a lot less than most think as a percentage, but the value it provided to government coffers was immense.  And look now, prices are on the rise again.


Just a few random thoughts on this, and I am by no means an expert.  Having grown up here, and grown up mostly during the 'boom years', and now doing what I do for work - I have had the opportunity and privilege to sit down and have some very candid and casual conversations with Premier Notley, and now Premier Kenny.

-  Oil prices may be on the rise, but a large chunk of the infrastructure to capitalize on O&G in Alberta has either been shut down, sold off, or is othewise no longer in service.  Yes, there are several camps doing oil & gas work, and there are plenty of jobs that support the oil & gas industry - but the number of projects, number of wells, number of active sites, etc etc is down substantially from even 6 or 7 years ago.  So while prices may rise, Alberta isn't in a great position to capitalize on that at the moment.

-  It was explained to me by several folks in the know that as a percentage, O&G is actually hard to measure in terms of a percentage.  The oil companies pay revenues to the provincial government in the magnitude of hundreds of millions, to billions, to tens of billions of dollars - at least they used to, when the province was bumping along.  A lot of those royalties are no longer coming in, due to the reason stated above.  

But what the province DOESN'T get any royalties or income on, are all of the companies that service the oil industry.  Equipment rentals, companies that provide specialized services (aircraft that use IR & other advanced sensors to detect and measure pipelines, companies that provide specialists who repel into oil sites after shutdown & measure a variety of things such as radiation, fumes, etc) - I'll word this as 'capital equipment rentals' that lease or rent the gigantic trucks that are only operated in the actual oilsand itself, companies that specialize in land reclamation, safety companies, medical companies, companies that survey service roads & land compositions, etc.  

That doesn't include all of the folks who have started their own small companies, who may/may not have incorporated, who are contracted out by both oil & gas companies, as well as the companies that support the industry.  (Welders, for example.)

And that is where a majority of the work is these days.  So even if there is a minor increase in business, it doesn't mean much for provincial coffers as a whole.  The big money that the government relied on came as royalties from the big oil companies like Shell, Husky, Chevron, etc - most of whom have shut down several of their sites and projects.  The Tekk Project was also killed before it could start, and that would have been a huge boon for the province.    

^ That's how it was explained to me, anyway.  I could very well be wrong.


*(Sorry for the lengthy post that isn't remotely related to the thread.  I wasn't trying to derail in the slightest.)*


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## Weinie (12 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Ok and just because our government has some corruption and incompetency does that mean we should just throw money away for nothing? If you follow my posts I am pretty much for everyone in the public service (including the MPs and such) getting a pay cut and bringing about fiscal responsibility we so desperately need as a country. I also dislike handouts and the many other expenses we are failing to pay for at the moment (hence the national debt).
> 
> Its not a race to the top climbing over the backs of those who pay your wages either. Currently the government is killing industry in Canada, raising the cost of living with things such as the carbon tax, increasing the CPP and EI payments (another 550$ out of my pocket each year right there as a increase in 1 year, mainly to pay for the increase in benefits being provided to people who never paid those increases in the first place), etc. Explain to me how adding more government spending, which will ultimately be paid from my pockets (or more likely my children's with the way we simply accrue debt and pass it on), is going to help me? When your salary is already more than the household average for Canada with a stellar pension and benefits, I really don't feel that much sympathy about how much they were being paid.
> 
> No point in arguing this point though as we have both been here before, and both know where the other stands.


My wife and I, who are both military, paid almost $80K in federal and provincial taxes last year, and pension contributions, notwithstanding how much we paid in consumption taxes. (I like beer and we drive two vehicles). That represents 40% of our earnings.

I get taxed like you do. I don't like it, but I also have been to too many shitholes on this planet to complain about what taxes bring. First World complaint.


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## Eaglelord17 (22 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> My wife and I, who are both military, paid almost $80K in federal and provincial taxes last year, and pension contributions, notwithstanding how much we paid in consumption taxes. (I like beer and we drive two vehicles). That represents 40% of our earnings.
> 
> I get taxed like you do. I don't like it, but I also have been to too many shitholes on this planet to complain about what taxes bring. First World complaint.


Your right that it is a first world complaint to want fiscal responsibility and good management, many of the kleptocracies of the world wouldn't tolerate that concept, hell our current PM is doing his best to emulate some of them. It is a large part of what separates us from them.

Congrats on paying taxes, there is a difference between the public sector paying taxes and the private sector paying taxes. One is simply returning some of the wealth they paid out, the other is actually bringing in new funds and is required to keep our whole society functioning. When our public sector is on average overpaid by 16-32% on what the private sector makes for the same job, and any sort of questioning as to why we are paying them that much is met with a immediate dismissal of the questioning it sounds a bit like 'let them eat cake'.


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## Good2Golf (22 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> …When our public sector is on average overpaid by 16-32% on what the private sector makes for the same job, and any sort of questioning as to why we are paying them that much is met with a immediate dismissal of the questioning it sounds a bit like 'let them eat cake'.


I’m always curious to see numbers on this…numbers that aren’t cherry-picked for a kid out of community college vs a 20-year CR-04 type of comparison.  It certainly doesn’t apply to all levels of private vs public sector, that’s for sure.  Releasing and NOT taking a PS job was the best thing I ever did for my bank account.


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## brihard (22 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Your right that it is a first world complaint to want fiscal responsibility and good management, many of the kleptocracies of the world wouldn't tolerate that concept, hell our current PM is doing his best to emulate some of them. It is a large part of what separates us from them.
> 
> Congrats on paying taxes, there is a difference between the public sector paying taxes and the private sector paying taxes. One is simply returning some of the wealth they paid out, the other is actually bringing in new funds and is required to keep our whole society functioning. When our public sector is on average overpaid by 16-32% on what the private sector makes for the same job, and any sort of questioning as to why we are paying them that much is met with a immediate dismissal of the questioning it sounds a bit like 'let them eat cake'.



I'll bite. What's the going private sector rate for a military officer? Or for a police constable? How are the physical and legal risks, responsibilities, and liabilities priced?

The military is a bit of an interesting beast in that its salary is linked to the public service with approximations of levels of responsibility, plus a small additional percentage as the 'military factor' to compensate for some of the unique suck of the military. Additional risks and hardships have their own allowance structure.

Police compensation is mostly benchmarked off other police compensation. Within Canada, the median base salary for a constable first class (3-5 years of service depending on the organization) is just under $100k. The top salary is just under $108k, and a handful at the bottom make between $80-$90k. The Quebec services are disproportionately clustered very low on the list, though this is a bit deceptive- they have negotiated allowances/shift premiums that nearly everyone qualified for but that don't appear on base salary figures.

In the context of the RCMP, they are unique among any sizable police service in Canada of never having had a collective agreement, though that may change on Monday. The RCMP have up til a few years ago been denied the legal right to collectively bargain for compensation that is both fair in its own right, and that is comparable to other police services. Now they can, and now it appears that Treasury Board has recognized that the proper comparators necessitate paying the RCMP on par with other major police services. Not right up at the top, but at least they'll be competitive. 

Where this REALLY maters is recruiting and retention. The RCMP have for years been a farm team for any of the big municipal services. The RCMP lose literally hundreds of members a year to other police services that can offer geographic stability and much better pay. The RCMP have also had to contend with 'what's left' in the recruiting pool. They hire more slowly, and for a position that pays less. As a consequence, those municipalities policed by the RCMP have been facing dramatic shortages in staffing levels, soft vacancies have not been backfilled, and a disproportionate number of high quality members who are junior enough in service to lateral out have done so. Hopefully now they will be able to attract better people and to keep more of them. This will pay dividends in the communities they police.


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## Colin Parkinson (22 Jul 2021)

Fed government overpays for things like clerical, it under pays for things like technical and certification jobs like Marine tickets, to the point where people laugh when you tell them how much your offering. It used to be security, stability and pension vs higher pay. Now we can't really offer that either. There are layers of management types that could be disposed of without notice to end products, however those people excel at avoiding the axe and every job cut hits the people actually working for the public.


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## mariomike (22 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> When our public sector is on average overpaid by 16-32% on what the private sector makes for the same job, and any sort of questioning as to why we are paying them that much is met with a immediate dismissal of the questioning it sounds a bit like 'let them eat cake'.





Good2Golf said:


> I’m always curious to see numbers on this…numbers that aren’t cherry-picked for a kid out of community college vs a 20-year CR-04 type of comparison.  It certainly doesn’t apply to all levels of private vs public sector, that’s for sure.  Releasing and NOT taking a PS job was the best thing I ever did for my bank account.


Whatever it is, public vs private, union vs non-union, rather than cannibalizing gains made by other working people, why not reframe it from, `I don't have it, so they shouldn't either,' to `they have it – why don't I?' It's not a race to the bottom.


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## Eaglelord17 (22 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> I’m always curious to see numbers on this…numbers that aren’t cherry-picked for a kid out of community college vs a 20-year CR-04 type of comparison.  It certainly doesn’t apply to all levels of private vs public sector, that’s for sure.  Releasing and NOT taking a PS job was the best thing I ever did for my bank account.











						Private sector workers earn less, work more: report
					

The average public sector employee makes 18 to 37 per cent more than a comparable employee working in the private sector, according to a new report from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.



					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Obviously it isn't equal with some jobs underpaid, but in many cases a lot are overpaid too. Best comment I saw in a while to explain this is Private sector is driven by profits which results in as much cutting as possible. The Public sector isn't and the wages are only really constrained by how much the taxpayer is willing to put up with not by any sort of defined metric.


brihard said:


> I'll bite. What's the going private sector rate for a military officer? Or for a police constable? How are the physical and legal risks, responsibilities, and liabilities priced?
> 
> The military is a bit of an interesting beast in that its salary is linked to the public service with approximations of levels of responsibility, plus a small additional percentage as the 'military factor' to compensate for some of the unique suck of the military. Additional risks and hardships have their own allowance structure.
> 
> ...


Comparable ways to measure military pay is to look at equivalent militaries. A basic Captain in Canada makes almost 84k a year. A Army officer in the UK makes 74122.12$ after conversion. A Australian Captain makes 65238.85$ after conversion. A New Zealand officer makes 67472.84$ after conversion. These are all fairly comparable militaries and countries and we are well beyond them in pay. You could also likely do the same thing with police around the world and also likely find we are paying much more than most.

I understand this will help the RCMP in many ways and I disagreed with a massive pay gap between them and municipalities. However I would rather have seen it solved the other way with the other forces being made comparable to them. To me the Police in country are paid well beyond what they should be for the work that is done (safer to be a cop today than it ever has been in history). I would rather the police be paid a bit less with more cops on the streets as my preferred outcome. 


Colin Parkinson said:


> Fed government overpays for things like clerical, it under pays for things like technical and certification jobs like Marine tickets, to the point where people laugh when you tell them how much your offering. It used to be security, stability and pension vs higher pay. Now we can't really offer that either. There are layers of management types that could be disposed of without notice to end products, however those people excel at avoiding the axe and every job cut hits the people actually working for the public.


Of course, you have to have the papers to justify your own position, many of the jobs which would be easiest to cut in any organization also tend to be the ones who protect themselves the most.


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## mariomike (22 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I understand this will help the RCMP in many ways and I disagreed with a massive pay gap between them and municipalities. However I would rather have seen it solved the other way with the other forces being made comparable to them. To me the Police in country are paid well beyond what they should be for the work that is done (safer to be a cop today than it ever has been in history). I would rather the police be paid a bit less with more cops on the streets as my preferred outcome.


You really do want our police in a race to the bottom!


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## Good2Golf (22 Jul 2021)

So that (no longer available) CFIB 2015 report seems to have dealt with wage-earners only, not salaried employees, but alas, back in the day, it took all of 24-hours for a breakdown of the faultyness of the CFIB report:

5 charts show math doesn’t add up in new public sector wage attack by CFIB


> Is the Canadian Federation of Independent Business playing the blame game with unions when it should be checking its math?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More at title link above.


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## RedFive (22 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Private sector workers earn less, work more: report
> 
> 
> The average public sector employee makes 18 to 37 per cent more than a comparable employee working in the private sector, according to a new report from the Canadian Federation of Independent Business.
> ...


While I appreciate your position, if disagree with it, I will point out that the RCMP struggled to hire anybody to do the job at its current and soon to be past pay grade. Those they did hire either did so with the express intent of leaving for a different force when experience had been gained, were hired with lowered standards because there was nobody else, or joined for personal reasons such as family connections to the force or a desire to transfer an existing pension. I am not saying all members hired since 2016 are poor quality hires as I'm included in that number, but the number of poor quality recruits has climbed immensely. Personal opinion only, I doubt very strongly you could convince the types of people you want to be Police officers to do the job if every Police force in the country paid that, or less as you want.

Another personal opinion here, so take it for what its worth. The RCMP has been the "yes men" Walmart bargain price Police force of choice for too long. It is in the force's best interest to divest itself of most if not all contract Policing, starting with the largest Detachments (mainly in the Lower Mainland of BC) and to focus on its Federal mandate, which as has been documented in the media, the force is barely or not even a little bit capable of dealing with.

That way, when massive shootings in rural areas of Provinces notorious for underfunding their Police forces happen, the only people to accept blame are the politicians and senior management that didn't fund the local Police to suitable levels to protect the population.


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## Weinie (22 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Your right that it is a first world complaint to want fiscal responsibility and good management, many of the kleptocracies of the world wouldn't tolerate that concept, hell our current PM is doing his best to emulate some of them. It is a large part of what separates us from them.
> 
> Congrats on paying taxes, there is a difference between the public sector paying taxes and the private sector paying taxes.* One is simply returning some of the wealth they paid out, the other is actually bringing in new funds and is required to keep our whole society functioning*. When our public sector is on average overpaid by 16-32% on what the private sector makes for the same job, and any sort of questioning as to why we are paying them that much is met with a immediate dismissal of the questioning it sounds a bit like 'let them eat cake'.


That sir, is bullshit. Regardless of how and whom from taxes are collected, they go into a common fund that contributes to the common good, democratically determined.

So under your interpretation, gov''t employees only return the wealth that they didn't earn, while you in the private sector are valiantly keeping the economy afloat, against the dastardly government.?       Sighhhhhhh


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## Remius (22 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> . (I like beer and we drive two cars)


I hope both are not enjoyed at the same time


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## brihard (22 Jul 2021)

RedFive said:


> While I appreciate your position, if disagree with it, I will point out that the RCMP struggled to hire anybody to do the job at its current and soon to be past pay grade. Those they did hire either did so with the express intent of leaving for a different force when experience had been gained, were hired with lowered standards because there was nobody else, or joined for personal reasons such as family connections to the force or a desire to transfer an existing pension. I am not saying all members hired since 2016 are poor quality hires as I'm included in that number, but the number of poor quality recruits has climbed immensely. Personal opinion only, I doubt very strongly you could convince the types of people you want to be Police officers to do the job if every Police force in the country paid that, or less as you want.
> 
> Another personal opinion here, so take it for what its worth. The RCMP has been the "yes men" Walmart bargain price Police force of choice for too long. It is in the force's best interest to divest itself of most if not all contract Policing, starting with the largest Detachments (mainly in the Lower Mainland of BC) and to focus on its Federal mandate, which as has been documented in the media, the force is barely or not even a little bit capable of dealing with.
> 
> That way, when massive shootings in rural areas of Provinces notorious for underfunding their Police forces happen, the only people to accept blame are the politicians and senior management that didn't fund the local Police to suitable levels to protect the population.



Yes to much of this, but disagreed about shifting to full federal. Members working in federal might spend months and months on a narrow part of one big file where the consequences of failure are high. They will get a low volume of opportunities to get good at things when the stakes are low. The advantage of starting out on contract policing is the chance to make a lot of little mistakes, get told a lot of lies, get ripped apart on the stand, and learn key things like evidence collection and continuity, writing judicial authorizations, etc when the files themselves are small. A member on the road doing several files a shift will come out of their first few years having learned a ton, taken a lot of statements, gotten a feel for when other people are full of shit, gotten comfortable in court, will probably have written a few search warrants and production orders if they're inclined to... Someone going to Serious and Organized Crime or to National Security right out of Depot will have a very steep learning curve on the basic cop stuff. There is considerable value to those early years on the road before moving into bigger, longer, slower investigations that have potential to really touch on the national interest.

That said, someone can do years of contract and still suck at criminal investigations, or go right to federal, stay humble and start swinging at the ball til they connect. If the RCMP were to intent to go solely federal, it would be best to capture some lessons learned from equivalent organizations in our allies. And that said, a pivot to full federal would take a decade or two anyway...


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## lenaitch (22 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Yes to much of this, but disagreed about shifting to full federal. Members working in federal might spend months and months on a narrow part of one big file where the consequences of failure are high. They will get a low volume of opportunities to get good at things when the stakes are low. The advantage of starting out on contract policing is the chance to make a lot of little mistakes, get told a lot of lies, get ripped apart on the stand, and learn key things like evidence collection and continuity, writing judicial authorizations, etc when the files themselves are small. A member on the road doing several files a shift will come out of their first few years having learned a ton, taken a lot of statements, gotten a feel for when other people are full of shit, gotten comfortable in court, will probably have written a few search warrants and production orders if they're inclined to... Someone going to Serious and Organized Crime or to National Security right out of Depot will have a very steep learning curve on the basic cop stuff. There is considerable value to those early years on the road before moving into bigger, longer, slower investigations that have potential to really touch on the national interest.
> 
> That said, someone can do years of contract and still suck at criminal investigations, or go right to federal, stay humble and start swinging at the ball til they connect. If the RCMP were to intent to go solely federal, it would be best to capture some lessons learned from equivalent organizations in our allies. And that said, a pivot to full federal would take a decade or two anyway...



I have worked with RCMP members who went directly from Depot to federal policing (O Div) and their lack of "basic cop stuff" skills was glaring.

Actually, there are very few federal statutes that  specifically empower the RCMP.  If the government wanted to, they could provide funding to the provinces, who are responsible for the administration of justice, to chase multi-jurisdictional crime, leaving the RCMP a specialized shell of its former self.  I certainly don't see contract policing being received well in the Maritimes, not without an permanent infusion of cash, probably more than the feds fund now.


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## dapaterson (22 Jul 2021)

Am I the only person who, every time this thread is up, immediately thinks it's about "Star Trek: First Contact"?


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## brihard (22 Jul 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Am I the only person who, every time this thread is up, immediately thinks it's about "Star Trek: First Contact"?


Probably not (eyeballs Dimsum). But a borg fight at Zefram Cochrane’s camp would be a pretty unremarkable rural Alberta file.



lenaitch said:


> I have worked with RCMP members who went directly from Depot to federal policing (O Div) and their lack of "basic cop stuff" skills was glaring.
> 
> Actually, there are very few federal statutes that  specifically empower the RCMP.  If the government wanted to, they could provide funding to the provinces, who are responsible for the administration of justice, to chase multi-jurisdictional crime, leaving the RCMP a specialized shell of its former self.  I certainly don't see contract policing being received well in the Maritimes, not without an permanent infusion of cash, probably more than the feds fund now.



Anything National Security is RCMP by statute. I couldn’t see the provinces willingly taking on stuff like border enforcement, or organized crime specifically of an international or national scope. Diplomatic security under the Vienna Convention is RCMP for sure, along with federally protected VIPs. Corruption of foreign public officials, some domestic corruption, war crimes/crimes against humanity would stay federal for sure as well. Most of the RCMP’s criminal intelligence infrastructure only makes sense as a federal purview... I really think the vast majority of the current federal policing mandate isn’t stuff the provinces would want.

Agreed WRT the Mari times and contract policing. Even with the pay raise, the feds subsidize policing 10-30% depending on program portfolio and community size, plus all the infrastructure. That’s a big hit for provinces or municipalities to absorb. But I could see the RCMP in the long term starting to back away from contract policing starting with the largest- so basically the BC lower mainland. A lot will hinge on whether Surrey pulls off the establishment of their own police service. Their first few dozen are sworn in, but none of that is boots on the street, and the municipal election is a bit over a year out...


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## Haggis (22 Jul 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Am I the only person who, every time this thread is up, immediately thinks it's about "Star Trek: First Contact"?


Now I do. And it's your fault.


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## Haggis (22 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Probably not (eyeballs Dimsum). But a borg fight at Zefram Cochrane’s camp would be a pretty unremarkable rural Alberta file.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One federal responsibility the RCMP could easily divest itself of is border enforcement. But that would require several legislative changes to allow the CBSA to manage the entire border.  CBSA's union has been asking for that for years.


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## brihard (22 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> One federal responsibility the RCMP could easily divest itself of is border enforcement. But that would require several legislative changes to allow the CBSA to manage the entire border.  CBSA's union has been asking for that for years.


My understanding is CBSA’s upper management are mostly from a customs and excise background and see the role of the organization as more about revenue than law enforcement? My buddies who are FBs have had little good to say about management and have been largely unimpressed with the union, too...


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## Haggis (22 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> My understanding is CBSA’s upper management are mostly from a customs and excise background and see the role of the organization as more about revenue than law enforcement? My buddies who are FBs have had little good to say about management and have been largely unimpressed with the union, too...


This has been my experience as well. However, I also see, at least publicly, that upper management has come to accept that CBSA has been and is now a law enforcement agency. Even the CBSA's Facebook page identifes it as a "Government Organization - Law Enforcement Agency". That's significant as we both know how image conscious the federal government is. 

I've had little direct dealings with our union. They ask for lots of stuff, especially during negotiations.  Some are throwaway demands IOT to get something else.  I'm still very disappointed in how they handled the CAF service time for seniority issue.


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## lenaitch (22 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Probably not (eyeballs Dimsum). But a borg fight at Zefram Cochrane’s camp would be a pretty unremarkable rural Alberta file.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wasn't thinking so much of 'willingness' but feasibility should some future government decide to go in that direction; with a bag-o-cash of course, as it is the Canadian way.  National security matters for sure but I was overseas twice in the course of criminal investigations and did a couple of domestic corruption (municipal politicians - always a hoot).

As you say, the uniformed member is the feedstock for major criminal investigations, no different than a municipal or provincial department.


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## RedFive (23 Jul 2021)

Perhaps an all federal stance would be too far the other way, but maybe a population limit on places we will Police? Or police the territories only and leave the various provinces to pick up their own tabs for Policing?

My personal favourite option would be to stop selling ourselves short and say to anybody that wants to hire us to Police their jurisdiction, based on these metrics (whatever the may be, Crime Severity Index, population, whatever) your detachment requires X number of members, which will cost Y amount of dollars. If you don't like that, or can't afford that its ok, but you'll have to find somebody else to Police for you.

I suspect that would solve an awful lot of the staffing, kit and equipment issues we face right now. (Yes I still drive a Ford Crown Victoria, last produced in 2012 and all of which by the RCMP's own policies should have been retired based on age AND mileage, but they soldier on for lack of replacement. And don't even get me started on the jam o' matic Smith and Wesson 5946's that we've run out of parts for that are only two years younger than I am...)

WRT CBSA and FSOC Border Integrity, my patrol zone currently includes two of the busiest CBSA crossings in Canada as well as two of the most notorious smuggling/loophole locations between BC and Washington State. FSOC Border Integrity is vastly more capable of taking care of it, however up until COVID happened they were an investigative only unit and anybody actually illegally crossing the border would be chased by us already horrifically overworked and almost certainly out of position General Duty Cst's. Lots of people got away.

CBSA also calls us for anything that isn't customs or excise related, including Criminal offences they have the authority and requirement to investigate but lack the knowledge and support of the management to do so like people intercepted with Warrants, impaired drivers, etc. Lots of excellent members there, held back by lousy policy and incompetent leadership.


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## mariomike (23 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> I'm still very disappointed in how they handled the CAF service time for seniority issue.


That is CAF to CBSA ( I believe that is what you are referring to? ).

I understand employers have Pension Transfer Agreements.

But, I have never heard of any union that would ever place a new member higher on their seniority list than a member already on it.

Your Seniority Date is the date you join the union. Not the CAF.

Any seniority accumulated with another union -  even if the CAF had one - stays with that union.  You don't get to transfer it to your new union.

Even Police to Police lateral transfers do not transfer seniority,

*Q:* I have presently accumulated 10 years of service with my current agency.  Is this seniority transferrable?

*A:* Lateral Entry applicants are considered new hires. There is no consideration given to previous service with other police agencies.





						Toronto Police Service
					






					www.torontopolice.on.ca
				




Same policy regarding seniority would apply to lateral transfers in the emergency services.

Do CAF members expect to join a union, and be placed higher on the seniority list than members already on it, because of their time in the CAF?

If so, they are going to be "very disappointed."

You start at the bottom of the seniority list, like everyone else who joined before you did, and work your way up.


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Do CAF members expect to join a union, and be placed higher on the seniority list than members already on it, because of their time in the CAF?
> 
> If so, they are going to be "very disappointed."
> 
> You start at the bottom of the seniority list, like everyone else who joined before you did, and work your way up.


There ae two parts to my disappointment.

First, in 2012, the GoC/TB allowed CAF members who joined the PS to use their CAF time towards vacation credits (all Reg F, Class B/C >180 days).  At that time, and until today, time worked anywhere in the federal public service counts towards seniority for vacation and line bidding at CBSA.  This did not apply to CAF members who joined the union.  In short, the applicant who spent 5 years as a call centre agent for Service Canada would have their time count, but the 25 year CAF member applicant would not.

Second, rather than simply make a decision to include CAF service in the union's definition of "public service", the union held a vote whereby the membership would decide.  The proposal and the vote were very poorly communicated and only a small percentage of FB cast ballots.

Predictably, the proposal was defeated.


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## mariomike (23 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> There ae two parts to my disappointment.
> 
> First, in 2012, the GoC/TB allowed CAF members who joined the PS to use their CAF time towards vacation credits (all Reg F, Class B/C >180 days).  At that time, and until today, time worked anywhere in the federal public service counts towards seniority for vacation and line bidding at CBSA.  This did not apply to CAF members who joined the union.  In short, the applicant who spent 5 years as a call centre agent for Service Canada would have their time count, but the 25 year CAF member applicant would not.
> 
> ...


If you don't mind me asking, is CBSA a Separate Bargaining Unit ( SBU )? Separate from the call centre workers etc in the main union?

We had our own SBU. We bargained separately from "the others". Thank God.

As a federal law enforcement agency, CBSA should not be forced to sit beside call centre workers at the same negotiating table.

SBU is the way to go for a professional agency or department, in my opinion.

RCMP never were in a union, so were able to start their own, which is better than a SBU.

But, for those of us unable to break away from the parent union ( believe me, we tried ), SBU is a good compromise. Probably for the best as we didn't have a lot of members.

As an SBU, we were subject to interest arbitration and therefore could not strike or be locked out in the event of an impasse at negotiations.

The others could strike, or get locked out. But, not us.

I assume the same is true for CBSA?

I am sure it must be - no strike or lockout - for RCMP.


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2021)

Border Services Officers, the FB group, are represented by the Customs and immigration Union (CIU), which is a part of PSAC.

I think you missed my point.  Members of another public service union who join CBSA and become members of the CIU can transfer their prior union time/seniority for the purposes of vacation and line bidding, but CAF vets who join cannot.  That is the bone of contention that CAF vets have with the CIU.


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## mariomike (23 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> Border Services Officers, the FB group, are represented by the Customs and immigration Union (CIU), which is a part of PSAC.
> 
> I think you missed my point.  Members of another public service union who join CBSA and become members of the CIU can transfer their prior union time/seniority for the purposes of vacation and line bidding, but CAF vets who join cannot.  That is the bone of contention that CAF vets have with the CIU.


I think I understood your point. I did not address it because it probably would not be what you would like to hear.

I think I may also understand the point of CIU, as you explain it.



> Members of another public service union





> prior union/seniority



I'm not an expert. But, my uneducated guess of the situation you describe is that because CAF members are not members of a union, they have no prior union seniority to transfer to CIU.

Yes, I can appreciate that would not be popular with CAF members applying for public service jobs, and perhaps my understanding of the CIU position is wrong.

Good luck with CIU.

Does the RCMP union have the same policy regarding seniority rights of former CAF members as the CIU? Or, are they more open-minded.


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## Haggis (23 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> I think I understood your point. I did not address it because it probably would not be what you would like to hear.
> 
> I think I may also understand the point of CIU, as you explain it.
> 
> ...


It's pretty hard to hurt my feelings.

I understand the CIU's point of view and it is, in general terms, what you articulated above.  Our hope was that since vacation credits were now transferable, so would time.

Here's hoping that one of our "Queen's Cowboys" will be along shortly to answer your last question.


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## brihard (23 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Does the RCMP union have the same policy regarding seniority rights of former CAF members as the CIU? Or, are they more open-minded.



"Seniority" is a word or concept that, thus far, has not been applied in RCMP collective bargaining. Mounties have a modest pay allowance for staying with the force (roughly an extra 1.5% per five years of service), but there is no formalization of seniority for job postings, promotions, etc with the extremely narrow exception of if two promotional candidates are exactly equal, the tie breaker is seniority. But that's pre-union. There's nothing where a rule or policy gives better shifts or postings or any other consideration to Mounties on the grounds of seniority. It just isn't a thing.

Existing RCMP policy, which will not change with this contract, offers some credit of years served for vacation time, based on exactly what a CAF member can carry in for pension transfer. Former military police qualified to a sufficient level may have their service credited for purposes of 'time in' requirements to promote from Constable to Corporal.


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> A lot will hinge on whether Surrey pulls off the establishment of their own police service. Their first few dozen are sworn in, but none of that is boots on the street, and the municipal election is a bit over a year out...


My buddy is a Surrey RCMP, the pay difference was about the only thing that the new SPD had over the RCMP, that is now gone. The RCMP have a real hard time getting enough members to work Surrey, the burnout is high. He had 6 years on the street there, which made him one of the more senior constables, but he is done on it, took a job in the schools and now moving into a more specialised unit. Big problem is that the recruits have a lot of academic education and are totally unprepared for the realities of the street. So a lot leave after a year there. If a significant portion of the RCMP are not willing to transfer over, the JIBC which trains non-RCMP police here says they cannot meet the demand for the number of new recruits needed.


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## RedFive (23 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> My buddy is a Surrey RCMP, the pay difference was about the only thing that the new SPD had over the RCMP, that is now gone. The RCMP have a real hard time getting enough members to work Surrey, the burnout is high. He had 6 years on the street there, which made him one of the more senior constables, but he is done on it, took a job in the schools and now moving into a more specialised unit. Big problem is that the recruits have a lot of academic education and are totally unprepared for the realities of the street. So a lot leave after a year there. If a significant portion of the RCMP are not willing to transfer over, the JIBC which trains non-RCMP police here says they cannot meet the demand for the number of new recruits needed.


I'm also in Surrey, and can confirm all of that.

Add the lack of transfers in of experienced members because nobody wants to slam the brakes on their career while the City sorts their lives out, very few recruits arriving from Depot, the exceptionally high workload compared to other Detachments and a tone deaf senior management that can most charitably be described as "out of touch with the troops" and its a morale pit. Many members have fled for neighbouring municipal departments for an instantaneous 15-20k a year raise, quality equipment, and much better treatment by the senior ranks.

Most people I talk to just want the Detachment to close so we can get on with our careers, but nobody knows what that will look like because staffing won't make a decision until the City starts filling their own positions. We've been in limbo like this for more than two years and we're running out of people, patience, and mental resilience to deal with it all and continue doing our jobs.


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## mariomike (23 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Does the RCMP union have the same policy regarding seniority rights of former CAF members as the CIU? Or, are they more open-minded.





Haggis said:


> Here's hoping that one of our "Queen's Cowboys" will be along shortly to answer your last question.





brihard said:


> "Seniority" is a word or concept that, thus far, has not been applied in RCMP collective bargaining.


Thank-you for the explanation.

I wondered if seniority would be a factor in things like "Senior Qualified" vs "Relative Ability Process".

When you work, where you work, your partner were permanent with us. Lifetime, if you wanted. Not subject to change.

Vacation was a seniority bid.

The RCMP sounds more flexible.



> Existing RCMP policy, which will not change with this contract, offers some credit of years served for vacation time, based on exactly what a CAF member can carry in for pension transfer.



Sounds like the RCMP is pretty relaxed about seniority. Nice for releasing CAF members who might be concerned about it.



> Mounties have a modest pay allowance for staying with the force (roughly an extra 1.5% per five years of service).



"Retention Pay" started in Toronto. Too many people in police and emergency services wanted to transfer to quieter municipalities. OMERS was the pension plan for all three services all over Ontario.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Jul 2021)

RedFive said:


> I'm also in Surrey, and can confirm all of that.
> 
> Add the lack of transfers in of experienced members because nobody wants to slam the brakes on their career while the City sorts their lives out, very few recruits arriving from Depot, the exceptionally high workload compared to other Detachments and a tone deaf senior management that can most charitably be described as "out of touch with the troops" and its a morale pit. Many members have fled for neighbouring municipal departments for an instantaneous 15-20k a year raise, quality equipment, and much better treatment by the senior ranks.
> 
> Most people I talk to just want the Detachment to close so we can get on with our careers, but nobody knows what that will look like because staffing won't make a decision until the City starts filling their own positions. We've been in limbo like this for more than two years and we're running out of people, patience, and mental resilience to deal with it all and continue doing our jobs.


Thing is that if you stay with the RCMP, you have the option to work many other places, if you go SPD, that is where you be for the rest of your career. Some people will like that, others won't.


----------



## Haggis (23 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> "Retention Pay" started in Toronto. Too many people in police and emergency services wanted to transfer to quieter municipalities.


I work in a specialized field in my agency. We have significant retention challenges.  The prospect of retention pay has been brought up several times and discarded by both management and the union. We are a very small, highly motivated and passionate community (<175) with a "can-do" approach to things which keeps management satisifed with the status quo. Our small numbers don't hold the union's interest for very long.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (23 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> You really do want our police in a race to the bottom!


I simply want good value for my tax dollars, and a constant justification of rates and pays is part of that.  


Weinie said:


> That sir, is bullshit. Regardless of how and whom from taxes are collected, they go into a common fund that contributes to the common good, democratically determined.
> 
> So under your interpretation, gov''t employees only return the wealth that they didn't earn, while you in the private sector are valiantly keeping the economy afloat, against the dastardly government.?       Sighhhhhhh


The public sector exists to provide services. It doesn't generate wealth though. Basically any money they take back in taxes is not wealth generated for Canada as drawing a salary in the first place is giving money in return for a service. It is just reducing the cost of the service. 

If no one external (i.e. private sector) was providing income into the government it would be out of money pretty fast. Government only economies always fail comrade. If there was no government or public service, I would have more money as I wouldn't be paying taxes, but I would also have to pay for all the things we take for granted myself, likely at a higher cost in either sweat or cash.  

As to the 'common good' that is debatable. Lots of things get justified under the common good which really isn't. Many of the worst acts in history have been done for the 'good' of someone else. Democratically determined also isn't always good, it is only as good as your average voter.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Jul 2021)

Haggis said:


> I work in a specialized field in my agency. We have significant retention challenges.  The prospect of retention pay has been brought up several times and discarded by both management and the union. We are a very small, highly motivated and passionate community (<175) with a "can-do" approach to things which keeps management satisifed with the status quo. Our small numbers don't hold the union's interest for very long.


PSAC kept throwing away the CCG seagoing personal and our needs. We were just useful bargaining chips. It was actually the DFO Minister that did more for us CCG Rescue Specialists than the union.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (23 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I simply want good value for my tax dollars, and a constant justification of rates and pays is part of that.
> 
> The public sector exists to provide services. It doesn't generate wealth though. Basically any money they take back in taxes is not wealth generated for Canada as drawing a salary in the first place is giving money in return for a service. It is just reducing the cost of the service.
> 
> ...


The shipping companies didn't want to pay for the TC Inspectors, so they made a deal with the Classification Societies to do ship inspections, they quickly realized that the TC inspectors were cheaper and more available. As an Inspector/regulator, a good portion of my job was to ensure companies cleaned up their crap after they had finished and didn't screw over everyone else to save themselves a few bucks. A lot of companies were great and I could count on them to do a good job and need minimal supervision. Other companies were either well meaning sh*tshows or total assholes to everyone. It was always the total assholes who were the first t complain to the media or the Minister, when told to clean up their act.


----------



## Weinie (23 Jul 2021)

Remius said:


> I hope bo





Eaglelord17 said:


> I simply want good value for my tax dollars, and a constant justification of rates and pays is part of that.
> 
> The public sector exists to provide services. It doesn't generate wealth though. Basically any money they take back in taxes is not wealth generated for Canada as drawing a salary in the first place is giving money in return for a service. It is just reducing the cost of the service.
> 
> ...


The public service, at multiple levels, generates outcomes (based on a democratic approach that most within Canada agree to/have come to expect) like roads, education, health care, water, power, and sewer. If you don't like that approach, you have several options available to you. I also want good value for MY tax dollars. You can bitch all you want, but you still likely have it pretty good. Flailing at gov't jobs and their compensation is futile. In the early 90's, I made half of what a GM worker in Oshawa earned. I didn't attack/criticize GM, it was reality.


----------



## Remius (23 Jul 2021)

My wife makes a lot less than what she would be making in the private sector.  She gets a market allowance but it’s still less.  However benefits and pension is a big factor.  She’s also incredibly talented at what she does.  We want and need people like that. 

I feel like I make a fair salary as a supervisor and project manager but have no frame of reference.  I am likely under classified given what I do but I’m not complaining.


----------



## Good2Golf (23 Jul 2021)

Hopefully it will be another few months before the next round of angry Karens wanting to speak to the manager about why the ungrateful people they pay the salaries of, should be doing far more than they are.


----------



## lenaitch (23 Jul 2021)

RedFive said:


> Perhaps an all federal stance would be too far the other way, but maybe a population limit on places we will Police? Or police the territories only and leave the various provinces to pick up their own tabs for Policing?
> 
> My personal favourite option would be to stop selling ourselves short and say to anybody that wants to hire us to Police their jurisdiction, based on these metrics (whatever the may be, Crime Severity Index, population, whatever) your detachment requires X number of members, which will cost Y amount of dollars. If you don't like that, or can't afford that its ok, but you'll have to find somebody else to Police for you.
> 
> ...



That's what - on a very basic level - happens in Ontario.  The government says municipalities are responsible of policing.  They can either have their own department, contract another municipal department or contract with the OPP.  Which ever way they go, the government determines whether a proposal meets the mandated 'adequacy and effectiveness' regulations.  The OPP costing formula is rather complex but basically boils down to a 'provincial rate' plus a 'local rate' based on historic calls for service.

I don't know all of the details but Quebec went a more prescriptive route; dictating which municipality had (or could not) have PDs and, even within, what the scope of major criminal investigations they could handle.

One problem with pension portability was the lifetime cost evaluations.  The OPP's pension and OMERS (municipal) have different calculations that took several years to sort out so the 'retiring end' pension plan didn't inherit cost liabilities that weren't contributed to during the member's time in the previous plan.  One big cost factor was post-retirement benefits which are vastly different between the two.  Anyway, it was eventually sorted out and legislation changed.  I recall they were working through pension portability with the feds when I retired and don't know where it stands. I forget how the seniority thing worked out.  Like the RCMP, seniority isn't a huge deal, much beyond the arm-wrestling for summer annual leave slots.


----------



## CBH99 (23 Jul 2021)

RedFive said:


> I'm also in Surrey, and can confirm all of that.
> 
> Add the lack of transfers in of experienced members because nobody wants to slam the brakes on their career while the City sorts their lives out, very few recruits arriving from Depot, the exceptionally high workload compared to other Detachments and a tone deaf senior management that can most charitably be described as "out of touch with the troops" and its a morale pit. Many members have fled for neighbouring municipal departments for an instantaneous 15-20k a year raise, quality equipment, and much better treatment by the senior ranks.
> 
> Most people I talk to just want the Detachment to close so we can get on with our careers, but nobody knows what that will look like because staffing won't make a decision until the City starts filling their own positions. We've been in limbo like this for more than two years and we're running out of people, patience, and mental resilience to deal with it all and continue doing our jobs.


Is Seb still RSM of E Div, or did he retire recently?

I'd have gone there in an instant if I had known he was hanging around those parts.  Love the guy


----------



## brihard (23 Jul 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Is Seb still RSM of E Div, or did he retire recently?
> 
> I'd have gone there in an instant if I had known he was hanging around those parts.  Love the guy


Seb popped smoke. I think he’s doing leadership consulting now, and of course still folding people in shapes they didn’t think they could fold into.

Sucks. That man was a leader, and fantastic support for the guys on the road.


----------



## RedFive (23 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Seb popped smoke. I think he’s doing leadership consulting now, and of course still folding people in shapes they didn’t think they could fold into.
> 
> Sucks. That man was a leader, and fantastic support for the guys on the road.


Never met the man in person, but his reputation is legendary.

Surrey Detachment had it's own Staff Sergeant Major who is a similar level of leader. I don't know the actual circumstances of his departure as he remained tight lipped and professional throughout, but the Constable's underground rumour mill suggested heavily he went to bat for "the road" too hard during Covid and was made to go away by the current head shed in the Detachment. Richmond Detachment snapped him up very quickly indeed.

That same head shed has the gall to show up at night shift briefings and say things like "it's news to me" when they're told how low morale is, or alternately ask us why morale is so low when they're responsible for the lions share of it.


----------



## Haggis (23 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> .... still folding people in shapes they didn’t think they could fold into.


I work with a number of very skilled folks who are masters of "involuntary yoga".


----------



## mariomike (24 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I simply want good value for my tax dollars, and a constant justification of rates and pays is part of that.


I think every taxpayer wants good value for their emergency services. 

Always a lively topic of discussion,









						Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay
					

It seems that any time the yearly salary of a police officer is brought up, most people seem to complain that "police are grossly overpaid for what they do". I have a serious bone to pick with this issue. It's so evident that the general public is simply unaware of just how risky and demanding...




					www.milnet.ca
				



10 pages.


----------



## mariomike (24 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I simply want good value for my tax dollars, and a constant justification of rates and pays is part of that.


Eaglelord17, thinking a bit more about what you said. Specifically about what was called "giving the taxpayers a bang for their buck".

Productivity was calculated as Unit Hour Utilization. That's the formula used by "High Performance" urban systems.
(  _UHU_ = the number of runs divided by the total number of unit hours in the measurement interval ).

Metro Police may use their own formula to measure productivity. Or, they may use the same.

It would be interesting to compare productivity stats over the years to what they are now.

With Metro Police, I think their big change came with the introduction of the two-man car ( as it was called back then ) in 1976.

To maintain the same car count meant a significant increase in hiring.

Metro fought the arbitration all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada, and lost. They still dug their heels. It took a work to rule to get it finally initiated.

"It took me 10 years to get two men in a car in Metro. We had guys beaten up, stabbed and murdered when they were one in a car."
Sid Brown, President Metro Toronto Police Association
Toronto Star, December 20, 1976

Background:
In 1972, Metro Police was made an essential service. They gave up their right to strike in exchange for compulsory binding interest arbitration.
In 1974, the arbitrator ruled in favor of the  Metro Toronto Police Association on the two-man car issue.
Understandably, the higher ups were concerned that two-man cars would "drain" the car count.
This led to the 1976 slowdown by the union. Metro accepted the arbitration ruling.

Two-officer cars have been pretty common in American cities for decades. Remember Adam-12 ( LAPD )  and Car 54 ( NYPD )?

From the U.S. Department of Justice,

Not sure if two-officer cars are common in the rest of Canada?

"IN CITIES WHERE ONE-MAN PATROL PREDOMINATES, THERE IS PERSISTENT PRESSURE FROM POLICE UNIONS AND FROM THE RANK AND FILE TO MOVE TOWARD TWO-MAN CARS. IN MANY CITIES WHERE TWO-MAN CARS PREDOMINATE, THERE IS PRESSURE FROM POLICE ADMINISTRATORS CONCERNED ABOUT PATROL COVERAGE AND FROM CITY OFFICIALS CONCERNED ABOUT TAX RATES TO USE ONE-MAN CARS WHEREVER POSSIBLE."


----------



## Booter (24 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Eaglelord17, thinking a bit more about what you said. Specifically about what was called "giving the taxpayers a bang for their buck".
> 
> Productivity was calculated as Unit Hour Utilization. That's the formula used by "High Performance" urban systems.
> (  _UHU_ = the number of runs divided by the total number of unit hours in the measurement interval ).
> ...


It changes drastically across the country. A common practice is a phased approach where certain hours of the day or week utilize two officers cars etc.

Then you have agencies that have it outright forbidden in their procedures and others that leave it up to the unit commander.

With regards to the RCMP, the topic of the thread, it’s a detachment to detachment level decision, but ten years ago there was at least one division (province) that had set its own rules- I BELIEVE that is no long the case.

for my unit they could ride four to a bicycle for all I care as long as they stay on top of the calls properly.


----------



## CBH99 (24 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Seb popped smoke. I think he’s doing leadership consulting now, and of course still folding people in shapes they didn’t think they could fold into.
> 
> Sucks. That man was a leader, and fantastic support for the guys on the road.


I had what I will genuinely call a blessed experience in meeting him like a year & a half ago, and working with him closely on a file.

I didn’t know him at all prior to us meeting for that.  Absolutely awesome guy!  Great leader, absolute savage, and was a real down to earth and lead by example kind of guy.   Kept in touch, always enjoyed my chats with him.  Nothing but good things to say about the man.  

Makes sense on him popping smoke.  Close to retirement anyway I remember him saying.  Coast to coast - I chat with RCMP buddies way out in the maritimes (and members from Halifax) - the man’s reputation was indeed legendary.


----------



## CBH99 (24 Jul 2021)

RedFive said:


> Never met the man in person, but his reputation is legendary.
> 
> Surrey Detachment had it's own Staff Sergeant Major who is a similar level of leader. I don't know the actual circumstances of his departure as he remained tight lipped and professional throughout, but the Constable's underground rumour mill suggested heavily he went to bat for "the road" too hard during Covid and was made to go away by the current head shed in the Detachment. Richmond Detachment snapped him up very quickly indeed.
> 
> That same head shed has the gall to show up at night shift briefings and say things like "it's news to me" when they're told how low morale is, or alternately ask us why morale is so low when they're responsible for the lions share of it.


Didn’t realize RSM’s could easily be ‘pushed out’?  

But I’ve also never been in the RCMP & have zero experience living as a member


----------



## mariomike (24 Jul 2021)

Booter said:


> for my unit they could ride four to a bicycle for all I care as long as they stay on top of the calls properly.


Now that the RCMP is unionized , do you think the union will negotiate for two-officer cars?


----------



## lenaitch (24 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Now that the RCMP is unionized , do you think the union will negotiate for two-officer cars?



They may - in time - but, from what I understand of their staffing challenges, their near-term focus might better be spent there.  I understand they have been working on a data-driven deployment model ( believe the OPP was collaborating with them) but don't know where it stands.

The OPP has had a two-member patrol policy for certain hours (IIRC 2200-0600) for years, unevenly followed.  A former colleague's son is just finishing off his probation and says they never double up.  The detachment covers a county and supposed to have a dozen or so members working but typically turns out 5-6, so it's 2-3 solo cars running call-to-call.  Raw staffing numbers are an issue but the array of statutory and other leaves is really hitting the road hard.


----------



## mariomike (24 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> The detachment covers a county and supposed to have a dozen or so members working but typically turns out 5-6, so it's 2-3 solo cars running call-to-call.  Raw staffing numbers are an issue but the array of statutory and other leaves is really hitting the road hard.


I guess the locals understand the reality.  

I wonder how long it takes callers up from Toronto for the weekend to start freaking out!


----------



## Booter (24 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Now that the RCMP is unionized , do you think the union will negotiate for two-officer cars?


There are a variety of things of things, and quite a long list that needs to be done first. I will be long retired before I could see a cohesive response to that.

For contexts sake- there hasn’t even really been a universal shift minimum of officers on in general yet- never mind how many cars they should be in.

the use of on-call, the availability and distance to backup, and minimums on shift will be ahead of the “cops to cars” ratio.

A city with 100000 people- may have 3 officers on by one watch commander- and the shift after that the watch commander has set a minimum of 7.


----------



## RedFive (24 Jul 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Didn’t realize RSM’s could easily be ‘pushed out’?
> 
> But I’ve also never been in the RCMP & have zero experience living as a member


Make the workplace miserable enough and the member of any rank will seek employment elsewhere. The position remains unfilled...


----------



## Booter (24 Jul 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Didn’t realize RSM’s could easily be ‘pushed out’?
> 
> But I’ve also never been in the RCMP & have zero experience living as a member


The Warrant Officer program is all based on appointments. You can be shifted shops based on “organizational need”. If a command was interested in doing so- you could freeze a S/M out of anything really meaningful until they decided it made more sense to be anywhere else.

Any S/M appointment can occupy any Staff Sergeant job as they historically are linked together in the sense that when you were done your tour as S/M you would relinquish the appointment and return to S/Sgt rank.

this stopped about 15 years ago- but there are still some left over ties between those ranks/appointments.

if you look at pay scales- all levels of warrant officers make the same salary- because they are appointments, it’s 500 dollars more than a S/Sgt. As time go on the overlaps get less and less but they are still there.

I don’t know what happened in that particular referenced case but i have seen offices neutered in order to “suggest” they speak with their career manager/staffing person.

of course a Warrant may parachute and tell me I’m right of ‘er. It’s happened before.


----------



## brihard (24 Jul 2021)

Booter said:


> There are a variety of things of things, and quite a long list that needs to be done first. I will be long retired before I could see a cohesive response to that.
> 
> For contexts sake- there hasn’t even really been a universal shift minimum of officers on in general yet- never mind how many cars they should be in.
> 
> ...


I think you’re right. It’ll be interesting to see what explicitly making OA/OR voluntary will do to small detachment staffing. That one on its own could be a huge reality check, to some districts... And maybe some detachment commanders who are less liked by their troops. There will be a lot of interesting adaptations to make to district staffing models.


----------



## Booter (24 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> I think you’re right. It’ll be interesting to see what explicitly making OA/OR voluntary will do to small detachment staffing. That one on its own could be a huge reality check, to some districts... And maybe some detachment commanders who are less liked by their troops. There will be a lot of interesting adaptations to make to district staffing models.


That was actually the piece in that new contract that actually stood out the most to me. There is some significant growing pain in there. But you and I appear in the minority. No meeting rooms ive been in see it as an issue yet.

Not even when talking about places staffed at half strength 🤷‍♀️


----------



## brihard (24 Jul 2021)

Booter said:


> That was actually the piece in that new contract that actually stood out the most to me. There is some significant growing pain in there. But you and I appear in the minority. No meeting rooms ive been in see it as an issue yet.
> 
> Not even when talking about places staffed at half strength 🤷‍♀️


Wait until the first time a detachment commander acts like a total dick to his or her people, and the troops decide to flex back by being selective about their willingness to take on call...

Don’t get me wrong, most members will be mostly happy to do most of the usual on call most of the time. But it becomes interesting leverage (albeit with >28 day lead time). 

I’m very happy that members working in the smaller locations will be able to hang on to some work life balance and have the opportunity to carve out some truly unfettered time off as when they need it.

I bet we see more adoption of district relief crews using a hubbing model...


----------



## mariomike (24 Jul 2021)

Booter said:


> A city with 100000 people- may have 3 officers on by one watch commander- and the shift after that the watch commander has set a minimum of 7.


Does the RCMP - or OPP - have a measurable response time standard? Specifically for highest priority calls?

I read this about Edmonton Police Service.








						Edmonton police divisions in west end struggle to meet response times - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca
					

Police divisions on Edmonton’s west end are struggling more than other divisions in the city to meet response time targets.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## Booter (24 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Does the RCMP - or OPP - have a measurable response time standard? Specifically for highest priority calls?
> 
> I read this about Edmonton Police Service.
> 
> ...


That would be something that is worked out between a detachment and a community, I’ve run Detachments for various periods of time from larger municipal contracts to small and rural areas. Even when consulting with governments of all those communities I have never had an actual target time come up,

it is a constant topic of conversation in rural areas- and rightfully so- but never a hard and fast.

I can’t speak to pacific region, but even collecting that data would be incredibly cumbersome. On individual files I can check and see- it’s a fairly common complaint that I have to look into, but as far as global trends on response times it would be an incredibly laborious task just based off the way information is managed.

hypothetically, if I was approached by a government about it- I would have to decide on which files, because our files run the gamut- “my kid is misbehaving!” to murder. Then filter it over a period, take my pool of calls and individually check each files metadata for when certain transmissions are made. Like “on scene” and “enroute”. And not everyone uses that everytime- so the data would be contaminated.

simultaneous calls could change the way the data is entered as well.

Theres a lot of variables.

when I used to parse data for say critical incidents or high priority calls for specialized teams we could pull that data, 

Like say the average priority one call to having a packet on scene. Then the second packet. Etc.

it was easier with smaller units and less calls- and the system of tracking information in those teams is done outside the call taker system, so it’s easier and more available.

You can’t even make a hat that works for the whole of this org. Let alone set a standard on response times!


----------



## brihard (25 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Does the RCMP - or OPP - have a measurable response time standard? Specifically for highest priority calls?
> 
> I read this about Edmonton Police Service.
> 
> ...


Where? Surrey? Moncton? Whitehorse? Pangnirtung? Sometimes response time is how fast you can clear the dumber, less important call you’re on. Sometimes it’s how soon you can get a plane. I remember doing 177km in not much more than an hour once when our neighbouring detachment had a bad one roll in just as we were starting shift. Sometimes you gauge it by “how long can my car smell like burning before I worry?”

Part of the problem the RCMP faces is any contracted standards - for anything, not just response time - have to work for everything from big city policing in B.C. to a two hundred person Nunavut hamlet.


----------



## mariomike (25 Jul 2021)

Thank-you, Booter and Brihard.

I was curious because the non-police department I worked for had a response-time standard of eight minutes and 59 seconds , with 90% compliance reliability, measured on a fractile, not average, basis. (Fractile response time measurement includes a reliability factor and measures all time intervals between the time the department received enough information to initiate a response and the time a properly equipped and staffed ambulance arrives on scene.)

That included a turnout or "chute" time / wheels rolling from the station of less than 60 seconds from when the tones went off.

90% was the target. Not sure how often they achieve their benchmark these days. ( Been retired over 12 years. )

That was in the city. No idea how long it takes out of town.


----------



## Booter (25 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Thank-you, Booter and Brihard.
> 
> I was curious because the non-police department I worked for had a response-time standard of eight minutes and 59 seconds (8:59), with 90% compliance reliability, measured on a fractile, not average, basis. (Fractile response time measurement includes a reliability factor and measures all time intervals between the time the department received enough information to initiate a response and the time a properly equipped and staffed ambulance arrives on scene.)
> 
> ...


These are things that rural ems and fire track in a lot of places. the last city I was in had those stats available for fire- city and county.

 I believe, if I recall correctly, there is a fire association that fire departments try and keep in line with- and they say like a town should have a concentration of so many hydrants and the response time “will be”. And as the community changes from hamlet to town or becomes incorporated they adjust around the new expectation.

that is going back fifteen years now the last  time I really looked into their systems though. So whether I a) recall correctly and b) if it was a provincial thing or an association is debatable. 🤦‍♀️


----------



## lenaitch (25 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Does the RCMP - or OPP - have a measurable response time standard? Specifically for highest priority calls?
> 
> I read this about Edmonton Police Service.
> 
> ...



The OPP does not, for the same reasons stated for the RCMP.  It's much easier for a municipal service with a relatively compact geography and coherent population density.  For detachments that police cities and other higher density areas, the staffing will obviously be higher with the ability to seamlessly call in rural resources.  Fire and EMS are a different in that they respond from a fixed location (EMS often less so as they might be clearing from a hospital, etc.); they are not 'patrolling'.  Even for those in rural areas, an incident down the road from the hall vs. one 50 km away would make the data fairly meaningless.


----------



## RedFive (25 Jul 2021)

Surrey Detachment's stats are available to the public, including response times, at the following link.

Surrey RCMP Report to the Community

Perhaps BCPRIME is more easily mined for such data compared to Booted using PROS.


----------



## Booter (25 Jul 2021)

RedFive said:


> Surrey Detachment's stats are available to the public, including response times, at the following link.
> 
> Surrey RCMP Report to the Community
> 
> Perhaps BCPRIME is more easily mined for such data compared to Booted using PROS.


I would imagine they also have in-house dispatching as well.

this is super interesting. Thank you

they distilled it into priorities- “priority 1 calls”. Which is, I suppose,  is the real “emergency work” so that makes sense.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (26 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Eaglelord17, thinking a bit more about what you said. Specifically about what was called "giving the taxpayers a bang for their buck".
> 
> Productivity was calculated as Unit Hour Utilization. That's the formula used by "High Performance" urban systems.
> (  _UHU_ = the number of runs divided by the total number of unit hours in the measurement interval ).
> ...


Personally I am a huge fan of two man per car policing. I am also a fan of having more police. Part of that is if your paying a bit less for the cops salary you can afford more cops or better equipment for them to use for the same price. The CAF runs into a similar problem where part of the reason we don't have equipment is the amount of money spent on the troops.



Weinie said:


> The public service, at multiple levels, generates outcomes (based on a democratic approach that most within Canada agree to/have come to expect) like roads, education, health care, water, power, and sewer. If you don't like that approach, you have several options available to you. I also want good value for MY tax dollars. You can bitch all you want, but you still likely have it pretty good. Flailing at gov't jobs and their compensation is futile. In the early 90's, I made half of what a GM worker in Oshawa earned. I didn't attack/criticize GM, it was reality.


Have I ever said we should do away with the public sector? I know what it is there for and I also know right now the government is more involved than I would like it to be in the lives of its citizens.

I want more equality between the public sector and private sector, if you have a issue with that concept it might be because you are the one on the higher end. Here is a dose of reality about the lives of many Canadians.

In the private sector, many don't get paid vacation and are limited to 2 weeks at most. Many don't have a pension, or if they are fortunate enough to have a pension they are pretty much all defined contribution, not benefit. A easy example being mine which is better than most, will let me retire at 65 with about 36k a year income from a back breaking, body destroying, shift work, cancer causing job. So my wages might seem higher than some, but when you factor in the amount I have to save for my own retirement, I really am not ahead at all. I suppose the only good thing being I likely won't live as long into retirement to burn though that money and be left poor.

I do have it pretty good in many ways, but there is a lot I don't have and can never expect to have in the private sector. There are many more in much worse situations than me who bust there asses off for next to nothing as well. I also happen to be in a career which is in extreme demand at the moment, mainly driven by the poor quality of some of the services provided by the public service. If our education system was better the demand that exists for people skilled in my trades wouldn't be nearly as high.


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## Good2Golf (26 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Personally I am a huge fan of two man per car policing. I am also a fan of having more police. Part of that is if your paying a bit less for the cops salary you can afford more cops or better equipment for them to use for the same price. The CAF runs into a similar problem where part of the reason we don't have equipment is the amount of money spent on the troops.



How about base community safety on teams of 3 security guards with well-equipped utility belts cruising in a minivan?  That’d be even better value than two constables!


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## dapaterson (26 Jul 2021)




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## Colin Parkinson (26 Jul 2021)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Personally I am a huge fan of two man per car policing. I am also a fan of having more police. Part of that is if your paying a bit less for the cops salary you can afford more cops or better equipment for them to use for the same price. The CAF runs into a similar problem where part of the reason we don't have equipment is the amount of money spent on the troops.
> 
> 
> Have I ever said we should do away with the public sector? I know what it is there for and I also know right now the government is more involved than I would like it to be in the lives of its citizens.
> ...


Particularly in the smaller towns, a lot of the business owners had a spouse that worked in government. It was that paycheck that kept the family and the businesses going through rough patches or seasonal down turns. This either-or situation does not exist as cleanly as you think. We also had a lot of technical people, who want job/life stability and took a pay cut to come work for the government. I personally think you get a much better Public Service when you have a substantial number of people who have worked in the private sector as well.


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## lenaitch (26 Jul 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> How about base community safety on teams of 3 security guards with well-equipped utility belts cruising in a minivan?  That’d be even better value than two constables!


Private security supplemental patrols have been considered in a couple of towns I am familiar with and rejected every time.  They can be 'eyes and ears', but can only arrest 'find committing' (criminal), have virtually no enforcement authority and, even when they do effect an arrest, must turn them over to the police, who might not be available because that was the goal in the first place.  

Private security in Ontario has very low qualification and training standards and the potential outfall of that would be the town, being the contracted employer, would share any civil liability.  Private security are not public accountable.


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## Good2Golf (26 Jul 2021)

Lenaitch, I forgot to add an eye-roll emoji to my comment in response to Eaglelord17’s solution to all things LE, ie. Pay cops less and double them up in cars.


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## Haggis (26 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Private security are not public accountable.


But they are criminally/civilly liable collectively at the corporate level (third-party insurance) and individually as private citizens.  I doubt any community would directly indemnify a private security provider doing patrols of public spaces. That doesn't mean a wronged party would not/could not bring suit against the community.


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## Booter (26 Jul 2021)

Many moons ago, there was a movement afoot to create tiered policing. It’s still there but the beast is different.

there was levels of enforcement and special or community Constables that had restricted authority. They would take care of the lower priority things and did traffic enforcement.

in 2005 they were making 20 bucks an hour as part timers and about 60 grand as full on municipal employees.

they are all pushing a hundred grand now too. They tied raises to the revenue they generated, and that they were doing risky work like traffic cops,

now, even though they are the same price as a police officer they are popular because they write tickets predominately, and they are more easily produced.

they are absolutely valuable members of the team. But the “cost savings” of the tiered system didn’t last long.

meanwhile, armed conservation officers in Manitoba with education can’t bust through the 65g ceiling


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## lenaitch (26 Jul 2021)

Booter said:


> Many moons ago, there was a movement afoot to create tiered policing. It’s still there but the beast is different.
> 
> there was levels of enforcement and special or community Constables that had restricted authority. They would take care of the lower priority things and did traffic enforcement.
> 
> ...



Tiered policing, if it works at all, could potentially work better in large urban areas, but certainly not in more sparsely-staffed deployed areas, where silos of ones and twos would be running around looking after their particularly area of authority.  The idea of 'traffic wardens' was floated in Toronto a while back until it was determined that they wouldn't have the authority to stop vehicles, which turned out to be pretty much the authority of parking control officers, which they already have.

Traffic enforcement is often portrayed as the 'no brains/no risk' segment of policing, but history has shown us that the 'routine traffic stop' can be a very deadly encounter.

I share your frustration with conservation officers.  Although I think in Ontario they are in the $67-85K range, I don't think I've worked with a group that is more particularly dedicated to their craft, certainly far beyond the support they get from their employer.


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## brihard (26 Jul 2021)

Just as a bit of followup, the contract, predictably, was ratified with overwhelming approval today. There should be ink on paper between the Union and Treasury Board this week. At this point it’s a done deal.


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## Colin Parkinson (26 Jul 2021)

Booter said:


> Many moons ago, there was a movement afoot to create tiered policing. It’s still there but the beast is different.
> 
> there was levels of enforcement and special or community Constables that had restricted authority. They would take care of the lower priority things and did traffic enforcement.
> 
> ...


It's not much better for Fish Cops or Environment Canada Enforcement team


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## lenaitch (27 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> It's not much better for Fish Cops or Environment Canada Enforcement team


It's probably the same across the board for most regulatory enforcement personnel (C/O, Environment, Highway Carrier, etc.) because they are such a small part of their ministry or department which isn't focused on enforcement or public safety and their managers are often bureaucrats with no background in enforcement.


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## RedFive (27 Jul 2021)

Booter said:


> I would imagine they also have in-house dispatching as well.
> 
> this is super interesting. Thank you
> 
> they distilled it into priorities- “priority 1 calls”. Which is, I suppose,  is the real “emergency work” so that makes sense.


Priority 1 is immediate dispatch to multiple cars no matter what else is going on, Priority 2 is next available member(s) (taking precedent over things like lunch/bathroom/coffee breaks etc. Literally the next member to come available, and if its busy enough, we pull off of an already dispatched priority 2 or 3), priority 3 is we'll attend when able and priority 4 is we're not attending and its either a phone follow-up or the call taker tells the person its a report only.

Yes we have out own OCC but PRIME-BC can generate these stats relatively easy for somebody trained to do so.


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## mariomike (27 Jul 2021)

Does the RCMP have Tiered Response? 

It was implemented in the early 1980's with the introduction of 9-1-1 in large urban areas of Canada and the U.S.A.. 

Not sure if they had it in less populated areas?


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## RedFive (27 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Does the RCMP have Tiered Response?
> 
> It was implemented in the early 1980's with the introduction of 9-1-1 in large urban areas of Canada and the U.S.A..
> 
> Not sure if they had it in less populated areas?


We may do it I'm not familiar with the term however. Also I can only speak to one of the many Detachments.


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## Booter (27 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Does the RCMP have Tiered Response?
> 
> It was implemented in the early 1980's with the introduction of 9-1-1 in large urban areas of Canada and the U.S.A..
> 
> Not sure if they had it in less populated areas?


It really depends on what you mean. There are probably several systems- for example, the Critical Incident Program has different response levels from tactical "packets" of small teams all the way up to full CIP deployment with multiple types of officers.


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## mariomike (27 Jul 2021)

Booter said:


> It really depends on what you mean.


Tiered Response, as I understood it back then, was the process of a co-ordinated response of the three emergency services to various types of emergency incidents that occur within a community. Tiered response, or the response of two or more of the three emergency services to the same incident is not restricted to only “medical” emergencies, as the protocols are designed to cover a broad spectrum of situations within the overall realm of public safety.

Prior to the early 1980's, each the three emergency services had their own separate telephone numbers.

After the implementation of 9-1-1, the services made a Tiered Response policy.

 The primary intent was of our tiered response model was to ensure that in the first instance the most appropriate emergency service was notified of an incident. In situations where time, circumstance and/or the nature of the incident warranted, the response of the other emergency services would occur. Based on the type of incident, the first notification would be to the “primary agency”, with other agencies or emergency services notified if required. As an example, a structure fire would result in the initial notification of the Fire Services as the primary agency, with Police and Ambulance notified as the secondary agency responder. The primary purpose of the fire services in this case is to provide immediate fire suppression and victim rescue, with Police providing investigative and crowd management and Ambulance providing medical care for either the victims and/or fire-fighters. In this example, all three agencies respond and each have a specific and vital role. There are many examples unrelated to medical responses that result in the notification and response of all three agencies.

In the case of medical emergencies, not all of the 9-1-1 medical calls result in a tiered response involving the Fire and Police Services. When a life threatening medical emergency is identified through the Ambulance call triage system, it is important to ensure that immediate intervention occurs. The tiered response system is designed to ensure notification of the Fire Services and in some cases the Police Service. While the primary agency is Ambulance, time factors associated with the medical emergency warrants the rapid response of the Fire Services and in certain cases the Police to provide immediate first response medical intervention.

For example. motor vehicle collisions on the Don Valley Parkway, the Gardner Expressway and the 400 series highways. While appropriate notification protocols had been in place prior to the implementation of 9-1-1, they were updated and strengthened to reflect an improved level of response. In these cases there is no duplication of services due to the specific nature of the incident and the need for the call is classified as potentially life threatening.

As I said, maybe it was only in larger urban areas. I've been retired for so long now that it has possibly gone the way of the Macarena.

Thank-you for your reply.


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## Booter (27 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Tiered Response, as I understood it back then, was the process of a co-ordinated response of the three emergency services to various types of emergency incidents that occur within a community. Tiered response, or the response of two or more of the three emergency services to the same incident is not restricted to only “medical” emergencies, as the protocols are designed to cover a broad spectrum of situations within the overall realm of public safety.
> 
> Prior to the early 1980's, each the three emergency services had their own separate telephone numbers.
> 
> ...


In the city I was in we had something similar for dispatching, in the boondocks however, - generally a call comes into one of the emergency branches and after hearing the details the officer will request the call get dispatched again across to fire or EMS. I have had rerouted dispatch requests to see if police were closer or capable of arriving sooner. Very infrequent- and I believe the area was about 200km's across with very sparse manning of any service.


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## RedFive (27 Jul 2021)

I can provide an example from a large city centre.

We work very closely with our friends at the BC Ambulance Service and Surrey Fire Service. The overwhelming majority of people do not know what kind of emergency services they need, and so the three dispatch centres (one each for Police, Ambulance and Fire/City Bylaws) will often arrange a joint response or downstream the call to the appropriate service. The employees on the street are aware other services are en route, on scene, or aware and monitoring but it is not on us (the employee on the road) to arrange for other services to attend.

The recent reality of the system is that the BCAS is desperately understaffed and run by incompetents (Give THIS a read...) and so downstreams everything they can that isn't immediately life threatening. We will often wait hours for them to attend to other calls, usually the ones they downstreamed to us in the first place on the hope we could make it go away. The Fire service will also often call for Police attendance and pop smoke as soon as they arrive, with a wishy washy "we need to be in service", "its shift change", "you don't need all four of us and the truck for this" or some other excuse to leave the four car pileup on a single Police officer.

I will point out that this is for routine operations, and this kind of stuff doesn't happen in your high priority, life threatening situations. Fire and Ambulance may wait for Police to make a scene safe in certain scenarios, but they will be staged just around the corner and ready to move in as soon as requested in those kinds of situations.

EDIT TO ADD:

I work in a jurisdiction where these kinds of services are professional, full time and readily available. There are part of this Province and Country where that is not the case at all.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Jul 2021)

I remember the good old days when the fire departments and EHS in the Lower mainland were having a spat about firemen providing first aid which was a EHS role.


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## mariomike (27 Jul 2021)

RedFive said:


> Fire and Ambulance may wait for Police to make a scene safe in certain scenarios, but they will be staged just around the corner and ready to move in as soon as requested in those kinds of situations.


If you don't mind me asking, what was the BCAS S.O.P. on Delay of Service? Did they have one?

Ours was pretty simple.



> "Paramedics are reminded of their responsibility under the Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43, (1) and (2).2 *These sections exclude paramedics from the right to refuse work* where the circumstances are inherent in their work and/or if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person."



"Not enter a scene until the appropriate agency has arrived in circumstances involving;
• the *use* of weapons at the scene;
• *continuing* violence at the scene;
• fire / hazardous materials"

"The decision to delay EMS service must include recognizing and evaluating the reasons for problematic patient behaviour—such as metabolic causes of combative behaviour—*to ensure staff are not jeopardizing the patient’s life, health or safety.*

4. wait for police assistance if,
a. there is an active shooter scenario, or
b. there is direct evidence of ongoing violence;

5. if electing to delay service as per paragraph 4 above, immediately notify CACC/ACS;

They also have paramedics on the Emergency Task Force.

And Rescue Task Force for ASHE calls,








						Active Shooter / Hostile Event ( ASHE ) prevention / response
					

When sent into the apocalypse, accept no substitutes,  An ambulance that has run flat tire inserts, ballistic glass & a full envelope of Level IIIA ballistic Kevlar throughout. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5i-JucB8fE




					army.ca
				




But, I was never on either of those.

RedFive said,


> I work in a jurisdiction where these kinds of services are professional, full time and readily available. There are part of this Province and Country where that is not the case at all.



I can imagine city folks freaking out if they don't get an almost instant tiered response when on vacation in the country.  

Thank-you for your reply.


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## RedFive (27 Jul 2021)

I can't speak specifically to their policies, I can only say that they often tell us they're staging or en route, and we find out an hour later that they hadn't been dispatched in the first place for lack of resources and the hope we would deal with whatever the situation was. It has become a running joke between us and our dispatchers to ask, when told they're "staging", if they actually have a bus assigned or if we're going to triage ourselves.


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## mariomike (27 Jul 2021)

RedFive said:


> I can't speak specifically to their policies, I can only say that they often tell us they're staging or en route, and we find out an hour later that they hadn't been dispatched in the first place for lack of resources and the hope we would deal with whatever the situation was. It has become a running joke between us and our dispatchers to ask, when told they're "staging", if they actually have a bus assigned or if we're going to triage ourselves.


OMG Delay of Service was a $10 million lesson my old dept. learned the hard way.

Funny they call them buses. We called them cars. The younger guys call them trucks. A regional thing, I guess. 

We actually operated a bus and truck division.


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## RedFive (27 Jul 2021)

I was told, quite pointedly, to stop calling them "meat wagons".


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Jul 2021)

RedFive said:


> I was told, quite pointedly, to stop calling them "meat wagons".


That's because the first ambulances were hearses, so if you got loaded up, you were not sure where they were taking you....


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## lenaitch (27 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> I can imagine city folks freaking out if they don't get an almost instant tiered response when on vacation in the country.
> 
> Thank-you for your reply.



They did, and probably still do.  At least now with pretty much everyplace having a '911address'  and GPS it can be quicker than it used to be.  In the before times, by the time they described the road by a name known only to a few cottagers,  'left at the yellow paddle on the tree then right at the big rock', their place had already burned down.

I don't know what or if there is province-wide protocols but around here, fire (volunteer) is _supposed_ to be tiered with EMS for motor vehicle collisions.  I say supposedly because the fatal I was involved in about a year and half ago, fire didn't show.  When I inquired to the 911 centre, I was told I didn't ask for it.  Sucks to be me apparently.  When the call was first answered, I was asked which emergency service I wanted, which struck me as odd, rather than 'what is your emergency'.   Then again, they did ask me what colour my truck was, so it seems that was important.

It seems 'bus' has caught on for ambulance in many places.  It comes from NYPD and made popular by TV shows.


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## RedFive (27 Jul 2021)

I call it a bus because it is generally used as publicly funded transport for frequent fliers to the hospital with vastly over-qualified personnel to get them there.

(That's not a dig against my paramedic friends just a cynical statement of fact I suspect many would agree with...)


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## mariomike (28 Jul 2021)

> It seems 'bus' has caught on for ambulance in many places.





> I call it a bus because it is generally used as publicly funded transport for frequent fliers to the hospital with vastly over-qualified personnel to get them there.


I was ok with that, "As long as they walk."  

I guess what they call a "bus" depends on the municipality.

If our local police were to say, "Put a rush on the bus." That might be what they would send. It was actually semi-comical when we went out of town. 

After my first eight years on "the cars", I transferred to the ambulance-bus division. This is the first one I drove.  A 40-foot GM "New Look" aka "Fishbowl" ( because of the shape of the six-piece rounded windshield ). She was a real back-breaker to load and unload. No power steering or air-conditioning either.


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## mariomike (28 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> At least now with pretty much everyplace having a '911address'  and GPS it can be quicker than it used to be.  In the before times, by the time they described the road by a name known only to a few cottagers,  'left at the yellow paddle on the tree then right at the big rock', their place had already burned down.



My first ten years on the job there was no 9-1-1 in our town. And, of course, no cell phones. You had to find a pay phone. Police and ambulance had separate numbers, and there were six fire departments back then. Each with their own number.

Now with so many people carrying cell phones, I hear the 9-1-1 system is sometimes flooded with multiple calls for a single incident. Which can lead to a delay with the Call Receivers. 

Not to mention the "butt dials".

And many of the callers are probably video recording the scene to upload to Youtube.

I find this 9-1-1 texting and cell phone dispatch interesting. Not sure I understand it very well. Location accuracy can be a problem. 

Land lines could match the call to the billing address. 

I read of a suburban woman who accidentally drove into a pond, in the dark. She lived in the area and knew exactly where she was. 

She gave her correct location, but her cell phone call was routed through a cell tower to the wrong dispatch centre. I read there are almost 6,000 dispatch centres in the U.S.A..

I have also read that many are understaffed,


			understaffed 911 dispatch - Google Search
		


On TV, I saw a reporter - in a 9-1-1 dispatch centre. The call showed as a location a quarter mile away. The reporter could have shouted his location to the dispatcher.

Even the pizza knows your location when you text them. Apparently, Ubers can find you better than ambulances.

It can never tell you what floor of a high-rise building a caller is on.


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## mariomike (28 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> That's because the first ambulances were hearses, so if you got loaded up, you were not sure where they were taking you....


"Combination cars", as they were known back then, were more common in rural areas where resources were limited. Major multi-patient incidents, like motor vehicle collisions could put a strain on any service. You can still see examples of some at professional car shows.

In 1966 when the U.S. Congress passed the Highway Safety Act, which set regulations on ambulance design and emergency medical care. New standards on medical training, equipment and vehicles made it hard for funeral homes to abide by the regulations.

Similar regulations had been in place long before that in the jurisdiction I was familiar with.




Colin Parkinson said:


> I remember the good old days when the fire departments and EHS in the Lower mainland were having a spat about firemen providing first aid which was a EHS role.


Job protection.



> Remarks by International Association of Firefighters ( IAFF ) General President Harold A. Schaitberger
> June 12, 2003





> But as one of this union's most fundamental responsibilities, our involvement in EMS has also helped us create and save jobs for our members.





> Most people expect to need EMS some time in their lives while they don't necessarily expect their homes to catch fire. Local municipal officials know the public criticism and fallout from fire department cuts will be much more severe when EMS is involved in the equation. And they know that EMS operations certainly increase the clout of our local unions in their campaigns to fight those cuts.





> Our next frontier is Canada. That is why we have more than three dozen of our Canadian brothers and sisters here at this conference. Although most of Canada is still locked into a third-service EMS system with workers represented by Canada's largest public employee union, our Winnipeg local's success in integrating EMS into its fire department has shown that fire-based EMS can and, if I have my way, will work in Canada, too.





			http://www.iaff.org/03News/061203has.html


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## lenaitch (28 Jul 2021)

> Our next frontier is Canada. That is why we have more than three dozen of our Canadian brothers and sisters here at this conference. Although most of Canada is still locked into a third-service EMS system with workers represented by Canada's largest public employee union, our Winnipeg local's success in integrating EMS into its fire department has shown that fire-based EMS can and, if I have my way, will work in Canada, too.



I remember the media coverage of that policy debate.  As I recall, the FD union was concerned that each truck would have to give up a (union) crew member to accommodate the EMS and argued for funding to raise the qualifications of its members.  I don't know enough of the pros and cons to have much of an opinion.  While it might improve initial care, you still need an ambulance if you have to transport.

Boy have we wandered off topic.


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## Booter (29 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Boy have we wandered off topic.


Whaaaaaaaaaaaat? 😱


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## OldSolduer (29 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I remember the media coverage of that policy debate.  As I recall, the FD union was concerned that each truck would have to give up a (union) crew member to accommodate the EMS and argued for funding to raise the qualifications of its members.  I don't know enough of the pros and cons to have much of an opinion.  While it might improve initial care, you still need an ambulance if you have to transport.
> 
> Boy have we wandered off topic.


I live in Winnipeg and the relationship between Paramedics and Firefighters is acrimonius at best and downright hostile at worst. Its not a good marriage.


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