# The Brookfield Megathread



## H2eau (3 May 2013)

Hello All, if anyone can provide input or advice I would appreciate it.  Basically this is our situation:

We are closing on our house on a Monday.  Brookfield is telling us we have to pack, load and clean on the Thursday, Friday and Saturday leading up to the closing date.  They are telling us we have to travel on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday.  The HG&E delivery is on Wednesday but we don't take possession of our new house until Friday so storage, lodging and food for two days (Wed and Thur) will have to come from Personal.
We thought we had set up a door to door move with closing on a Monday and possession of new home on a Friday with three travel days in between but we are told we are wrong because the moving company doesn't work on weekends.  Brookfield is telling us we can not be in town on the day we close our house but we need to be there because there are conditions of our sale that will be inspected that day.  If anything comes up we need to be present to deal with it. I can't move up the closing date on the other end because we are going to Bagotville, my spouse does not speak any french and I am away on course and can't physically be there until the Friday.

Help?


----------



## DAA (3 May 2013)

See Chapter 5, specifically 5.03, 5.04 and 5.05.  Also, ILM&I do not have to be on "consecutive days" and the extra day for "cleaning" comes out of Custom.  Delivery of your HG&E on the other end is "not within your control" PROVIDED you report directly to the Brookefield Office on arrival at your new location and Base Traffic is provided with a contact # to get ahold of you.

If the movers are doing a pack and load on Thurs/Fri, your stuff will probably sit in a yard for the weekend.  Don't sweat what your being told, so long as you don't try and take advantage of things, it will all work out in the end.

If your Lawyer says you "have" to be there on Monday, then you have to be there on Monday but you will need a letter to this effect.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 May 2013)

I've never had to use Brookfield. I don't know if there's any stories out there that show them in a good light. Co-operative, willing to work with the customer during special circumstances (deployment, course, etc.) and make things easy for the stressed out service family.

What I do read, constantly here and other places, points me in the direction of a selfish, money grubbing company, that would seem to have friends on the inside of the bidding process. They treat service people with contempt and appear, as in the example above, to flat out lie in order to create an untenable situation for the customer. All for the service of their own needs and bottom line. The serviceman shall not get in the way of their paycheck seems to be their mantra.

On the face, it seems scandalous and dollar wasteful. It would appear the whole process could use a good look at by an Ombudsman and perhaps a Ministerial Inquiry or an investigation by the Opposition MP's.

I feel for all the people that post their woes about having to deal with supposed robberbarons and count my lucky stars that I am well past the point where I will ever need these services. 

Am I off base or not reading this right? It just sounds too archaic that someone isn't doing something about this.

Anyway, good luck to all those currently dealing and having to do future business with them.

It sounds like you'll need it.

Sorry for the tangent.


----------



## PAdm (3 May 2013)

On a good day I refer to Brookfield as Nazis.  If you cannot speak reason to the agent, go see your base IRP Coord.  You are door to door but nothing is ever good enough for them.


----------



## 392 (3 May 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I've never had to use Brookfield. I don't know if there's any stories out there that show them in a good light. Co-operative, willing to work with the customer during special circumstances (deployment, course, etc.) and make things easy for the stressed out service family.
> 
> What I do read, constantly here and other places, points me in the direction of a selfish, money grubbing company, that would seem to have friends on the inside of the bidding process. They treat service people with contempt and appear, as in the example above, to flat out lie in order to create an untenable situation for the customer. All for the service of their own needs and bottom line. The serviceman shall not get in the way of their paycheck seems to be their mantra.
> 
> ...



I'd say you're pretty spot on. My last posting from Pet to Gagetown in 2010 wasn't too bad, but last APS was quite an eye opener. According to several friends and subordinates who were posted out last summer, the IRP agents apparently no longer actually "consult", it is up to you, the relocatee to read the book and figure out your own entitlements and if you don't ask, they won't voluntarily tell. At least not until something is amiss in your file that could result in scrutiny of their "consulting". I almost dread the thought of another posting for this very reason. Sad, really.


----------



## PAdm (3 May 2013)

I have always said you have to be your career manager. Now you need to be your own relo agent/admin clk as well.


----------



## Cansky (3 May 2013)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> I'd say you're pretty spot on. My last posting from Pet to Gagetown in 2010 wasn't too bad, but last APS was quite an eye opener. According to several friends and subordinates who were posted out last summer, the IRP agents apparently no longer actually "consult", it is up to you, the relocatee to read the book and figure out your own entitlements and if you don't ask, they won't voluntarily tell. At least not until something is amiss in your file that could result in scrutiny of their "consulting". I almost dread the thought of another posting for this very reason. Sad, really.




I am sorry your troops had bad experience.  Where were they moving from?  I have had 4 moves with Brookfield and this past APS was the best one ever.  Agent from Borden was amazing answered every question I had and even found us entitlements we weren't aware of.  We didn't have to read the book to much as she had been with Brookfield for about 8 years and really knew her stuff.  Only issue I had was with legal papers here in AB and even when she said we weren't entitled to anything she still research and found out how we could get it covered.  

I only wish there were more agents like the one I had.  She really made dealing with Brookfield a positive experience so different from the previous 3 moves.


----------



## CombatDoc (3 May 2013)

KL, I'm glad you had an excellent experience with Brookfield.  I suspect you're in the minority.


----------



## garb811 (3 May 2013)

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> I am sorry your troops had bad experience.  Where were they moving from?  I have had 4 moves with Brookfield and this past APS was the best one ever.  Agent from Borden was amazing answered every question I had and even found us entitlements we weren't aware of.  We didn't have to read the book to much as she had been with Brookfield for about 8 years and really knew her stuff.  Only issue I had was with legal papers here in AB and even when she said we weren't entitled to anything she still research and found out how we could get it covered.
> 
> I only wish there were more agents like the one I had.  She really made dealing with Brookfield a positive experience so different from the previous 3 moves.


And here's the biggest problem illustrated.  Based on my experience of 4 moves with Brookfield (including 2 international) where every one of the agents was "new", Brookfield churns their employees due to the cyclical nature of their business.  Borden is lucky due to the number of QL3 students that constantly go through that they can build and sustain an employee base that has a level of knowledge.  Most other bases don't have the clientele during the non-APS to support the number of pers they require for APS, so they hire people short term, give them very basic training and try to have them learn on the job.  Thus you end up with Brookfield employees providing advice and guidance, some of which can have severe financial repercussions for members, when they don't even understand the intricacies of the program themselves.


----------



## Gramps (3 May 2013)

For the OP, PM inbound.


----------



## DVC185 (3 May 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> I have always said you have to be your career manager. Now you need to be your own relo agent/admin clk as well.



How true and I found that out when we were moving from a location in Alberta to Yellowknife. 

The IRP 'consultant', and I use that term in the absolute loosest term of the word, said we were not entitled to storage of F&E at the Queens expense due to the size of available housing. I said "oh yes we are" and pointed out the reference in their manual. She balked and yammered some incomprehensible gibberish that this was new to her. "Right" I said and I also mentioned that she best call the previous guy back to advise him of his entitlements and apologize for the misunderstanding

In addition to all the other stresses of a move, it is truly sad that Joe and Jane Airman/Sailor/Soldier must also assume the role of the old admin clerks to know the regulations. Those clerks used to do a bang up job for us and ensured we received everything we were entitled to.


----------



## Cansky (3 May 2013)

CombatDoc. Yes I agree I am in the minority but sometimes people need to hear the good stories as well as the bad ones.  

Garb811 you are more than likely correct in your observations. Borden does handle a large amount of moves and this does give the Brookfield agents an advantage.  However my agent I believe was a rarity even in Borden.  Having taught at the Health Services school and my students were all Sgt & WO's most of them were not so lucky and had some rotten agents there.  Of course the chain of command isn't allowed to intervene which I believe is a failure of the system. We can only advise from reading the manual and aren't allowed to discuss the individual subordinate's case with the Brookfield agent.  I shudder to think of the poor QL3 trying to navigate such a complex and unforgiving environment such as Brookfield.


----------



## devil39 (3 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> Hello All, if anyone can provide input or advice I would appreciate it.  Basically this is our situation:
> 
> We are closing on our house on a Monday.  Brookfield is telling us we have to pack, load and clean on the Thursday, Friday and Saturday leading up to the closing date.  They are telling us we have to travel on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday.  The HG&E delivery is on Wednesday but we don't take possession of our new house until Friday so storage, lodging and food for two days (Wed and Thur) will have to come from Personal.
> We thought we had set up a door to door move with closing on a Monday and possession of new home on a Friday with three travel days in between but we are told we are wrong because the moving company doesn't work on weekends.  Brookfield is telling us we can not be in town on the day we close our house but we need to be there because there are conditions of our sale that will be inspected that day.  If anything comes up we need to be present to deal with it. I can't move up the closing date on the other end because we are going to Bagotville, my spouse does not speak any french and I am away on course and can't physically be there until the Friday.
> ...



Sounds about right to me even if it might be wrong.  I am going through a move from Ottawa to Edmonton right now. Brookfield appear to be hard over on the door to door move stuff based on Treasury Board direction.  The flexibilty that we used to have, to have 21 days of flex between sale and acceptance of our new home is gone.   Now we have to play the home sale closing date game, because it is going to cost us out of pocket.

When did the CF (or Brookfield) start spending our posting allowance?  I remember in the old days you were paid a posting allowance....you didn't have a bunch of contracted movement people spending your money on behalf of the CF like happens now.....

My posting allowance is no longer MY posting allowance....just another pot of money to be spent....


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 May 2013)

I have to wonder how the Brookfield 'consultants' are paid. Is it commission where the sooner you move your case to close, the sooner and better you get paid? Or is it salary, where they don't care and get paid, no matter what hoops you have to jump through or what they tell you? Or maybe a combo of both, or some other? 

It certainly doesn't seem to be based on the calibre of work they do to make a clients transition simple, cost effective (maybe it is for Brookfield though) and painless as possible. :


----------



## PAdm (4 May 2013)

devil39 said:
			
		

> My posting allowance is no longer MY posting allowance....just another pot of money to be spent....


devil39 - are you my wife and you never told me you were on the forum??   This is a common theme in our house when it comes to moves and my wife's biggest pet peeve for 2 reasons:
1.  the post allowance is still on the books as a compensation for turmoil but yet it is a funding pot that Brookfield will spend to the fullest given a chance.
2.  this funding envelope varies from mbr to mbr e.g. cpl vs maj.  on my last move i had to eat a 13K mortgage penalty which destroyed all my funding env, but fortunately i had a relatively lg personalized env.  a cpl could have easily been in the same predicament but with a much smaller personalized pot.


----------



## PAdm (4 May 2013)

DVC185 said:
			
		

> In addition to all the other stresses of a move, it is truly sad that Joe and Jane Airman/Sailor/Soldier must also assume the role of the old admin clerks to know the regulations. Those clerks used to do a bang up job for us and ensured we received everything we were entitled to.



we are dangerously close to another anti-brookfield thread.  My point to everyone is that if you are posted, you need to have a clear idea of what your move is about, and what your plan is.  You cannot go into Brookfield with a vague idea or "we are not sure if we are going to buy or rent at XX.  You need to have a plan!  Next, and equally as important, is you need to read the policy cover to cover and extract every item that you may be entitled to based on your plan.  If you do not raise a question, it cannot be answered.  My favourite Brookfield form is the "it is not our fault form" which is the long form where you have to tick off what areas of the policy you want to discuss and Brookfield annotates what date it was discussed with you.  They may indeed discuss the topic, but unless you go in with a full understanding of your move plan and the policy, you will not know what questions to ask about that policy.  I truly pity the poor sod who wanders in to Brookfield thinking that they will be treated with kindness and have their move spoon fed to them. :'(  Love it or hate it, the "new" relocation process places the burden on the mbr and the family.


----------



## PAdm (4 May 2013)

devil39 said:
			
		

> Brookfield  DND  appear to be hard over on the door to door move stuff based on Treasury Board direction.  The flexibility that we used to have, to have 21 days of flex between sale and acceptance of our new home is gone.   Now we have to play the home sale closing date game, because it is going to cost us out of pocket.



DND is driving this and letting this happen.

We are very experienced military folk who face danger, can make a solid plan on the fly, and accomplish objectives.  We are smart folks in the field or deployed in general when we truly apply our craft.  A move is a far more challenging event as you are bringing the family dynamic into it.  DND wants you to simply find accn at your next place of duty.  Could be a mansion, or a house, or an apartment, or a cardboard box - as long as you report back that "yes, I have a place to live e.g. in Edmonton effective 1 Aug..."  The reality is that you need to pay attention to where the schools are; where potential spousal employment is; what the neighbourhoods are like for resale; safety; potential child health issues so where is the specialist located; commute time; housing cost; does 'the missus' like the house or the neighbourhood; what is the possession date of the houses you are looking at; does the house need work; etc, etc.  Any fool can go to e.g. Edmonton and secure a place to live effective 1 Aug.  The challenge is getting a place 1 Aug that is financially viable, in a good neighbourhood, that you can sell in 3 years, that your wife likes, that is close to a good school, in a safe area, reasonably close to work.  DND could care less about those intangible aspects that are very tangible for you.  

so buying a house is a very complex task.  And now we have the infamous door to door criteria imposed upon us and any deviation required in order to factor in the intangibles is a personal problem.  I always though the 21 day rule of thumb was still a challenge, buy a very fair envelope.  DND makes moving far too stressful on the family.

I wish all of you posted this APS patience, good luck and safe travels.


----------



## 392 (4 May 2013)

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> I am sorry your troops had bad experience.  Where were they moving from?  I have had 4 moves with Brookfield and this past APS was the best one ever.  Agent from Borden was amazing answered every question I had and even found us entitlements we weren't aware of.  We didn't have to read the book to much as she had been with Brookfield for about 8 years and really knew her stuff.  Only issue I had was with legal papers here in AB and even when she said we weren't entitled to anything she still research and found out how we could get it covered.
> 
> I only wish there were more agents like the one I had.  She really made dealing with Brookfield a positive experience so different from the previous 3 moves.



Gagetown. There is a constant supply of QL3s moving all year long here. Don't get me wrong, I have had a couple good consultants myself, but the fact that someone who is posted needs "to check off what they wish to discuss" is pure and utter BS. When we do yearly IBTS or predeployment training, do we get to "check off what we wish to review"? Why is it that something that could bring a soldier / sailor / airman/woman's deployability to a halt as quickly as a move across the country gone bad is treated with less importance than a bloody C7 shoot? I understand the need to curb unnecessary spending such as those deliberately misusing the 21 day hotel bit, but I think DND has adopted too much of a hand's off policy here  :brickwall:


----------



## PAdm (4 May 2013)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> but I think DND has adopted too much of a hand's off policy here  :brickwall:



Love the brick wall at the end!  mil points inbound!


----------



## DAA (4 May 2013)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> I think DND has adopted too much of a hand's off policy here  :brickwall:



It's called "contracting out".  Brookefield does not have any "leeway" what so ever with regards to CFIRP policy.  They must go with what is in the book.  Mind you, they do have a "proprietary" operations manual which relocation agents can refer to and which does have examples and clarifications but these are not available for review by CF members.

So for the OP, you need to look at and be prepared to answer these questions:

a.  Which category do you fall into?  Art 2.2.01 or Art 2.3.01?   (2.3.01 can sometimes, result in a reduction in ILM&I benefits)
b.  Did you try and arrange for a closing date for the SALE on anything other than a Monday?  A closing on a Monday can be viewed as a 3 day extension of benefits!
c.  Did you try to arrange the closing date for the PURCHASE as close to the SALE closing as possible inorder to facilitate a door to door move?  You should have as a minimum, in your case a seven (7) day window (ie; pack, load, clean and 3 x days TNL).
d.  Have you consulted with both your Realtor and Lawyer regarding the "requirement" for you to be physically present the day of closing and do you have this in writing?  (on our last sale, we cleaned and went to our lawyers office either that afternoon or the day after, signed the papers, gave him the keys and then left town and the closing date on sale was another 3-4 days after that).

These are some of the questions that you "may" need to answer inorder to avoid any bumps in the road.   However, looking at the timeline which you have provided in your post, you seem to have made a sufficient effort inorder to arrange for a "door-to-door" move, in which case, I would have no heart ache supporting that your benefits (ILM&I) be paid.  But then again, someone may see it differently....

It's not like you are trying to milk the "maximum" out of the relocation, so they really shouldn't be trying to "nickel and dime" you!


----------



## 392 (4 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> It's called "contracting out".  Brookefield does not have any "leeway" what so ever with regards to CFIRP policy.  They must go with what is in the book.



Exactly my point. Their job is to facilitate a relocation for members. Part of that is a clear explanation of entitlements, benefits, etc etc, regardless of how many times someone has moved previously under IRP. They are not doing this - what I have seen in the last two APS is nothing but IRP "consultants" (and I use that term very lightly) cherry picking what they want or don't want to explain to members. And when the consultant doesn't "understand" something, their own interpretation of the policy should not be applied (and while I am at it, why is *policy* allowed to be interpreted in the first place? Policy is policy, period). 

[rant on]If I refer back to my last posting, they disallowed a very clear entitlement of the licensing costs for spousal employment (my wife is an RN) all because the "consultant" interpreted something written on the receipt from the NBNA along the lines of reinstatement of license. She interpreted this to mean that Mrs. Happy had allowed the license to lapse while still residing in this province (even though the real reason it lapsed was because we had been in Ontario for the previous *5* years which I clearly explained). I even went to the IRP coordinator / liaison / whatever the official term is for the military pers who is responsible, and was flat out told that they could not overrule the "consultant's" interpretation and Mrs. Happy should have kept paying the $450 per year to remain licensed in NB even though we were posted to Pet and didn't know we'd be returning  :facepalm: I was offered the option to go to DCBA for adjudication, but being as angry as I was, I just said f it.

If I, a Cbt Engr who is not paid to advise on, implement and enforce TB policy WRT paid moves can take the time to research all the appropriate policy as it applies to military members (and by this, I mean QR&O, DAOD, CBI, etc. not some chickensh*t Brookfield "interpretation") to at least be able to try and provide some suitable advice to my subordinates, then Brookfield employees who are *paid* to do this function as it is their job can surely take the time to ensure they know the policy inside and out. 

Perhaps if DND tied the payment of the consultant for the administration of a move to their actual performance instead of throwing $$$$ at Brookfield and then washing their hands of it, threads like this would quickly vanish. The system as it is, IMHO, is very broken, and it appears that all anyone in the crystal palace cares about is saving the almighty dollar. But yet when Bloggins' move goes to sh*t and he / she is up in front of the CoC for financial or admin burden because they lost their shirt during their last cost move, the system places the blame solely on Bloggins' shoulder.[/rant]

I fully understand that a lot of the complaints aired come from pers who are not fully versed in cost move policy, but I fully believe it is time to cut away the dead weight and start staffing those positions with pers who actually understand the responsibility they have, in addition to bringing some CF oversight back into the picture to ensure these "consultants" are not misinterpreting clearly laid out policy. However, being the realist I am, I know this will most likely never happen, so I will just add it to the list of reasons why the creaking of the out door swinging is starting to get more frequent as more and more CF members tire of this merry-go-round. 

Out.


----------



## dapaterson (4 May 2013)

For the record: Brookfield is paid a flat rate per move.  No incentives to pay out less than is entitled.


----------



## PAdm (4 May 2013)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> I even went to the IRP coordinator / liaison / whatever the official term is for the military pers who is responsible, and was flat out told that they could not overrule the "consultant's" interpretation and Mrs. Happy should have kept paying the $450 per year to remain licensed in NB even though we were posted to Pet and didn't know we'd be returning  :facepalm: I was offered the option to go to DCBA for adjudication, but being as angry as I was, I just said f it.



I had an obvious entitlement in my 2009 move.  Brookfield said no.  I engaged the local mil IRP Coord and just got stared at.  I then  ullhair: ullhair: ullhair:engaged DCBA adjudication who quickly (too quickly) said no.  I knew I was right and asked what was my next recourse.  DCBA Adjudication said "grievance".  I was pissed off and knew I was right.  So I did and 2 years later DCBA (as the IA) agreed with me and awarded me my $213.  Yes folks - $213.  I soooo enjoy our contracted out approach to relocation.... :facepalm:      My posting in 2011, and in 2012, and now in 2013 (I am not kidding - 3 moves in 3 years) is reinforcing my hatred of our process.  There is no way the CDS wanted this when he signed off on the new approach back in the 1990s.   ullhair:


----------



## devil39 (4 May 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> devil39 - are you my wife and you never told me you were on the forum??



I don't think so....I'm not overly feminine.  I have, over the years, been known by the name UMIN - Ugliest Man In NATO


----------



## garb811 (4 May 2013)

Best one for me was when I was going to MSGU and sat down for my first appointment.  She looked at my file, her eyes lit up and she went, "Oh....! An international move?  I've never done one of these before, this is going to be FUN!"  It was too.  Good thing I knew what I was doing from having been to MSGU before or I'd still be trying to get over there "x" years on because she didn't have a clue (ie. she couldn't quite wrap her head around the requirement to ship my HG&E to the Embassy vice my SQ, no matter how many times I explained to her the whole idea that the only address recognized for diplomatic shipments was the Embassy proper and to address it to my SQ would be bad.  Very, very, very bad.)


----------



## DAA (4 May 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> I had an obvious entitlement in my 2009 move.  Brookfield said no.  I engaged the local mil IRP Coord and just got stared at.  I then  ullhair: ullhair: ullhair:engaged DCBA adjudication who quickly (too quickly) said no.  I knew I was right and asked what was my next recourse.  DCBA Adjudication said "grievance".  I was pissed off and knew I was right.  So I did and 2 years later DCBA (as the IA) agreed with me and awarded me my $213.  Yes folks - $213.  I soooo enjoy our contracted out approach to relocation.... :facepalm:      My posting in 2011, and in 2012, and now in 2013 (I am not kidding - 3 moves in 3 years) is reinforcing my hatred of our process.  There is no way the CDS wanted this when he signed off on the new approach back in the 1990s.   ullhair:



I hear your pain.  Alot of times, the DND Coords just don't seem to know what their job is!!!  Rarely did I have to forward an adjudication to DCBA and on several occassions I just went over to the RLRS/Brookefield Office and said "I looked it over, pay it out and put a note on the file indicating that".

So if you come across a DND Coord that thinks all they are there for is to forward adjudications to DCBA, they obviously don't understand their job.  Hell, I even had access to the RLRS/Brookefield Relocation network so I could look at your fle......lol


----------



## PAdm (4 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> So if you come across a DND Coord that thinks all they are there for is to forward adjudications to DCBA, they obviously don't understand their job.  Hell, I even access to the RLRS/Brookefield Relocation network so I could look at your fle......lol



This will come out all wrong as I know some folks will take offence and this is sincerely not my intent.  This is not a rank thing, it is an expertise thing:

I complained to a Brookfield civ, then to the Sgt IRP coord, who told me to go to DCBA adjudication. I did so and was denied by an MWO. I grieved as per the direction I was given by the MWO and was awarded $213 by misc staff who staffed a ltr for a Col to sign.  Let's call that $30,000 in staff work.  Nice way to do business. I grieved because a staff officer told me "tuff".


----------



## PuckChaser (4 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Hell, I even access to the RLRS/Brookefield Relocation network so I could look at your fle......lol



I'm posted (hopefully cost move) next summer for the first time, PM your mailing address for the case of beer to send.  ;D


----------



## H2eau (5 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> It's called "contracting out".  Brookefield does not have any "leeway" what so ever with regards to CFIRP policy.  They must go with what is in the book.  Mind you, they do have a "proprietary" operations manual which relocation agents can refer to and which does have examples and clarifications but these are not available for review by CF members.
> 
> So for the OP, you need to look at and be prepared to answer these questions:
> 
> ...



I don't think I am being unreasonable in my request.  Although our closing is on Monday in theory we still have a door to door move.

a) Reg force
b) We actually have the original closing on Thursday and possession on Friday.  I would be on the possession end my spouse would be on the closing end.  However the buyers submitted an amendment to change the closing date and we felt, in order to save the sale, we had to oblige.
c) see response to b
d) We are seeing Lawyer this week.  I am going to try and get something in writing saying we need to be here at closing.


----------



## garb811 (5 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> ...
> They are telling us we have to travel on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday.  The HG&E delivery is on Wednesday but we don't take possession of our new house until Friday so storage, lodging and food for two days (Wed and Thur) will have to come from Personal.
> ...


Sorry, was reading your latest post and something twigged so I came back to your original post and re-read it. Based on my experience your HG&E are not going to be delivered until Monday because they will not schedule a delivery for the day you actually take possession due to the fact that you do not know when you are actually going to get the keys.  I have lucked out and had the keys at 9am, another time I didn't get them until 3pm.  

Even if they do agree to deliver on your possession date, you are not going to get your unpack until Mon and Tues.  This will cause problems on its own because you are then faced with the choice of: 1) leaving the stuff in boxes and staying in the hotel over the weekend, which will cause a fight with Brookfield for ANY funding because your stuff has been delivered; or 2)  start to unpack yourself to find the basics of life and assume the liability if any of the stuff in the boxes you unpack is damaged.  

As others have said, an actual "door to door" move as it is currently being enforced is almost impossible to do and the member ends up paying for something in the end.  You lose a lot of flexibility because of this as well.  It is hard enough finding a suitable house in an unfamiliar town without the added stress of trying to negotiate a closing date that aligns exactly with what you need to comply with this.


----------



## DAA (5 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> I don't think I am being unreasonable in my request.  Although our closing is on Monday in theory we still have a door to door move.
> 
> a) Reg force
> b) We actually have the original closing on Thursday and possession on Friday.  I would be on the possession end my spouse would be on the closing end.  However the buyers submitted an amendment to change the closing date and we felt, in order to save the sale, we had to oblige.
> ...



I don't think your being unreasonable either.  The questions I posed are questions that may or may not be asked of you, should they try and limit your benefits.

Go about your business, submit your receipts, answer their questions exactly like you did above and things should go smoothly.  Any problems down the road, feel free to PM me and I will have a look at helping you resolve it.


----------



## DAA (5 May 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> This will come out all wrong as I know some folks will take offence and this is sincerely not my intent.  This is not a rank thing, it is an expertise thing:
> 
> I complained to a Brookfield civ, then to the Sgt IRP coord, who told me to go to DCBA adjudication. I did so and was denied by an MWO. I grieved as per the direction I was given by the MWO and was awarded $213 by misc staff who staffed a ltr for a Col to sign.  Let's call that $30,000 in staff work.  Nice way to do business. I grieved because a staff officer told me "tuff".



Yup and that is the sad sad part!!!  The Sgt IRP Coord is "responsible" for doing a complete review of your question/complaint and or trying to resolve it locally.  If they can't do that, then once again, it is there "responsibility" to "receive" your complaint in writing, "verify" the situation with Brookefield agents and then forward your complaint including their "recommendations" to DCBA for adjudication.

I saw a situation exactly like yours a few years back, where a person complained about something prior to their posting.  Then when they reached the new unit, it ended up on my desk but I couldn't auth what they wanted as it had already been adjudicated on.  But still, I looked it over and agreed with the CF member.  Called DCBA and asked if they would entertain a "second look", which they agreed to do.  Sent up the members complaint, along with my assessment and it came back approved.

Turned out that the DND IRP Coord at the prievious unit, was receiving complaints and forwarding them to DCBA with no explanation or background on the issue.

And "rank" should have absolutely NO bearing what so ever, when it comes to Relocation.  Everybody should be treated with equal respect and consideration at all times!!!!!  

I didn't care if you where the Base Comd or the QL3 Pte, both received the same level of service!!!  I know the Base Comd was quite happy.      The QL3 Pte, that was another story.  After me telling him to put everything in writing (and I even gave him a draft), he staffed it through his CoC, after being returned multiple times for spelling, grammar, contents, etc, etc it was finally reviewed by the unit C Clk and then "denied" by the unit CO.  I saw the poor kid about 3-4 weeks later and asked where the memo was and he told me the story.  He came over to my office the next day, re-did the memo, he signed it, Brookefield put a minute on it, I forwarded it with my review notes to DCBA and the kid had his money less than a month later.

Got relocation questions, post them in the forums for everyone to see or if it is personal, feel free to PM me and I will help where I can....


----------



## RubberTree (5 May 2013)

Ask and you shall receive DAA...
Does anybody know if there is some sort of leeway for short postings? Say you receive your posting message with a COS date less than 6 weeks later. Its next to impossible to have an HHT and find a house owned by someone that is willing to close in less than 30 days. Are you really expected to limit your house search to those that can accommodate such a short time frame, or suck up the cost of ILM&M until the house is available?
My case isn't too bad (close on my home on the 13th and close on the purchased home on the 24th) but hotels and meals add up quite quickly...plus an exercise on the 25th which will take me away for another week before I can pull my F&E out of storage.
It would seem reasonable to have a short notice posting rule but reasonable doesn't always rule the day in such situations.
I have spoken to Brookfield about this and received the reply "get your move done first, worry about asking questions later." 
Any input would be appreciated,
Thanks,
RT


----------



## SentryMAn (5 May 2013)

did I read this correctly in that the CF gives all the money to Brookfield for a move and you the mbr have to submit receipts to Brookfield for things like mileage, Hotels, Meals, etc when you move?

If that's the case I'm screwed, first posting is 6000kms away from me, to say it will add up quickly for that type of travelling would be an understatement.  

I'm really scared now for my move, which could be within the next 6 weeks.


----------



## DAA (5 May 2013)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> did I read this correctly in that the CF gives all the money to Brookfield for a move and you the mbr have to submit receipts to Brookfield for things like mileage, Hotels, Meals, etc when you move?
> 
> If that's the case I'm screwed, first posting is 6000kms away from me, to say it will add up quickly for that type of travelling would be an understatement.
> 
> I'm really scared now for my move, which could be within the next 6 weeks.



Brookefield will do an "initial" calculation for TNL (Travel to New Location) costs and can provide you with an "advance" if you request it.  Turn around time, probably 5-7 business days.   You won't necessarily go out of pocket for items such as this.

2.9.02 - CF members shall be advanced funds (via the Service Provider) to assist in meeting personal expenses incurred in the relocation such as House Hunting Trip (HHT), Destination Inspection Trip (DIT), Travel to New Location (TNL) or Interim Lodgings, Meals and Miscellaneous Expenses (ILM&M).


----------



## DAA (5 May 2013)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> Ask and you shall receive DAA...
> Does anybody know if there is some sort of leeway for short postings? Say you receive your posting message with a COS date less than 6 weeks later. Its next to impossible to have an HHT and find a house owned by someone that is willing to close in less than 30 days. Are you really expected to limit your house search to those that can accommodate such a short time frame, or suck up the cost of ILM&M until the house is available?
> My case isn't too bad (close on my home on the 13th and close on the purchased home on the 24th) but hotels and meals add up quite quickly...plus an exercise on the 25th which will take me away for another week before I can pull my F&E out of storage.
> It would seem reasonable to have a short notice posting rule but reasonable doesn't always rule the day in such situations.
> ...



Both of the closing dates are "relatively" close to each other and so long as you can demonstrate that you have made every reasonable effort to change either date to facilitate a door to door move, then you may very well have a good case for reimbursement.  One thing you do not want to bring into the picture is the really "DUMB" statement in 5.01 "CF members whose closing date is after the date the HG&E is available for delivery have made a personal choice to await a specific house and are therefore responsible for additional costs associated with the later closing."

So based on the closing date of the Sale, you add on the TNL time and that should be the target date for closing on the purchase, which is applicable to all moves but generally not possible.

Edit - so at this point in the relocation, all I can recommend is the start lining up your ducks......   :clubinhand:


----------



## Zoomie (5 May 2013)

What's the word on returning OUTCAN members?  What I understand is that my moving truck will enter a CBSA impound yard until I come to get it released.  This impound yard may or may not be near the new posting.  Does IRP account for the extra time that this activity will accrue?


----------



## DAA (5 May 2013)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> What's the word on returning OUTCAN members?  What I understand is that my moving truck will enter a CBSA impound yard until I come to get it released.  This impound yard may or may not be near the new posting.  Does IRP account for the extra time that this activity will accrue?



When last I encountered an OUTCAN on return, everything was administered through CFSU Ottawa from the start.  Your shipment will be delivered to the closest "bondable" warehouse" and from there, it is up to CBSA to send an agent out to "clear"clear it.  You will not be out of pocket for any travel expenses associated with this and if you incur any, submit the receipts.


----------



## captloadie (6 May 2013)

That being said, returning from outcan  can still be a real hassle. In my case, the CBSA office was 3.5 hours away, and I had to personally go down and clear the shipment with their office. They then will go do the inspection. Oh, and I had to do this twice, as the cars were shipped separately, and showed up the day the movers were delivering my HG&E. On the upside, the local Brookfield office didn't raise much of a stir when I needed to keep the rental car for 2 extra days until I had time in my schedule to go back down.


----------



## H2eau (7 May 2013)

Hello Folks, I have another Brookfield/IRP question.  
When we were preparing to sell our home, the Brookfield consultant told us that our real estate fees were only covered for the appraised value of the home.  For example if our house was appraised at $100,000 and the real estate commission is 4.4% then Brookfield would only pay $4,400 of the real estate commission.  
The appraiser reviewed our home and calculated a value much lower than our agent's listing price.  $19,000 lower.  We went ahead with the agents advice and did sell it for more than the appraised value.  Now we have to pay the outstanding commission fee out of pocket.  I understand that we were verbally made aware of this situation, but has anyone heard of this before?  I can't seem to find anything in the IRP manual.  Thanks.


----------



## DonaldMcL (7 May 2013)

My understanding, and I'm no expert, is that the CFIRP program covers the comission up to and including the pre-negotated rate (varies by province). The only time an appraised value comes into play is when the member elects to take the 80% payout in-lieu of the commission (ie. for private sale or electing not to sell).


----------



## garb811 (7 May 2013)

Say what?  How did they come up with that?  First I've ever heard of it and it is not supported in the Relocation Directive.  The only time you should have to pay out of pocket is if you agree to a higher rate than negotiated by the program.



> 8.2.03 Real estate commission
> 
> Core benefit
> Reimbursement of real estate commission is not to exceed the pre-negotiated corporate rates.


----------



## H2eau (7 May 2013)

BobSlob said:
			
		

> My understanding, and I'm no expert, is that the CFIRP program covers the comission up to and including the pre-negotated rate (varies by province). The only time an appraised value comes into play is when the member elects to take the 80% payout in-lieu of the commission (ie. for private sale or electing not to sell).



That is what I thought as well.  I went back to the Brookfield agent today and asked for clarification.  The agent responded and explained what I had been told in the inital meeting but made no reference to this is the IRP manual.  I asked for reference and that is where it stands now.


----------



## H2eau (7 May 2013)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Say what?  How did they come up with that?  First I've ever heard of it and it is not supported in the Relocation Directive.  The only time you should have to pay out of pocket is if you agree to a higher rate than negotiated by the program.



My consultant is telling me otherwise.  She told me I am going to have to write a personal cheque for "the real estate commission fee incurred  above the appraised value" and forward it to my lawyer.


----------



## DAA (7 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> That is what I thought as well.  I went back to the Brookfield agent today and asked for clarification.  The agent responded and explained what I had been told in the inital meeting but made no reference to this is the IRP manual.  I asked for reference and that is where it stands now.



I have to start charging for my services.......   
Got the manual handy?  See 8.2.03.  Real Estate Fees are reimbursed on the "pre-negotiated" corporate rate (ie; what ever your agent put in the contract, up to the CFIRP/Provincial Maximum).  The only reason that appraisals are done, are for cases where you end up selling at a loss and or try and put your house on the market at a value where you know it will not sell, inorder to trigger additional benefits or to seek reimbursements in the cases of losses.

Real Estate and Legal Fees are disbursed, based on the SALE PRICE of the qualifying residence.......


----------



## Shamrock (7 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> I have to start charging for my services.......



Do you accept MilPoints?


----------



## 392 (7 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> My consultant is telling me otherwise.  She told me I am going to have to write a personal cheque for "the real estate commission fee incurred  above the appraised value" and forward it to my lawyer.



Time for a new "consultant?" Can the CF IRP coordinator on his base intervene and get him someone who has a clue?


----------



## DAA (7 May 2013)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Do you accept MilPoints?



Much better than "shit and abuse".....lol


----------



## DAA (7 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> My consultant is telling me otherwise.  She told me I am going to have to write a personal cheque for "the real estate commission fee incurred  above the appraised value" and forward it to my lawyer.



Real Estate and Legal fees are an "unseen" payment.  In other words, your contracted Lawyer, submits the bill directly to Brookefield and they pay it on your behalf, as a "tax free" benefit.  You should absolutely NOT being paying your Agent anything nor your lawyer.


----------



## DAA (7 May 2013)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> Time for a new "consultant?" Can the CF IRP coordinator on his base intervene and get him someone who has a clue?



If the DND Coord is doing their job, it will be a simple fix.  But from what I have seen in previous posts within other threads on relocation topics, that just might be a bad assumption on my part.


----------



## PAdm (7 May 2013)

:facepalm:  go see the mil IRP Coord if you do not get anywhere. This is nuts. 

Once again people, one of the reasons we went to an IRP type model was to eliminate a clerk in Comox giving a different interpretation than a clerk in Halifax. Brookfield was supposed to be the same answer coast to coast. IRP bites.


----------



## DAA (7 May 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> :facepalm:  go see the mil IRP Coord if you do not get anywhere. This is nuts.





			
				PAdm said:
			
		

> I had an obvious entitlement in my 2009 move.  Brookfield said no.  *I engaged the local mil IRP Coord and just got stared at*.  I then  ullhair: ullhair: ullhair:engaged DCBA adjudication who quickly (too quickly) said no.  I knew I was right and asked what was my next recourse.  DCBA Adjudication said "grievance".  I was pissed off and knew I was right.  So I did and 2 years later ......



Okay.......you need to pick a side here!


----------



## once a gunner (8 May 2013)

and lets not forget the all famous line...."it's your move"  aka, you figure it out!


----------



## H2eau (8 May 2013)

Thank you to all who took the time to respond.  I received clarification and thought I should post it.  Our properties has 2.5 acres.  Brookfield and the appraiser only consider 1.25 acres.  Our low assessment was due to the the appraiser only valuing our land on 1.25 acres.  Brookfield will only reimburse the appraised amount.


----------



## George Wallace (8 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> Thank you to all who took the time to respond.  I received clarification and thought I should post it.  Our properties has 2.5 acres.  Brookfield and the appraiser only consider 1.25 acres.  Our low assessment was due to the the appraiser only valuing our land on 1.25 acres.  Brookfield will only reimburse the appraised amount.



Interesting.  That is a real kick in the junk.  If only you could pay them half their fee for their only doing half their work.   >


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 May 2013)

So, their consultant was too amateurish\ incompetent\ whatever to give a proper assessment and that puts YOU on the hook?

I'd be seeing a lawyer about a lawsuit.


----------



## H2eau (8 May 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So, their consultant was too amateurish\ incompetent\ whatever to give a proper assessment and that puts YOU on the hook?
> 
> I'd be seeing a lawyer about a lawsuit.



No, it's ok.  I understand they have to put a cap on land size or you would have members buying 100s of acres each move, driving the value of their property which would be very expensive for DND to pay real estate fees.  
I do think the appraisaer should have given us two values, one based on the entire land and one on 1.25 just so we would know and see the difference.  However that didn't happen and we are moving on from this.  Lesson learned.  Don't buy too much land (or a nice property) if you aren't willing to pay for it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> No, it's ok.  I understand they have to put a cap on land size or you would have members buying 100s of acres each move, driving the value of their property which would be very expensive for DND to pay real estate fees.
> I do think the appraisaer should have given us two values, one based on the entire land and one on 1.25 just so we would know and see the difference.  However that didn't happen and we are moving on from this.  Lesson learned.  Don't buy too much land (or a nice property) if you aren't willing to pay for it.



Seen. Like I said earlier, I've never had to use them, so I don't know the rules.


----------



## George Wallace (8 May 2013)

Unfortunately, not all CAF members are in the same boat when it comes to what size of property they may legitimately require.  I have know several who have owned horses and others who have bought "Hobby Farms".   To lump everyone into one category, which basically limits CAF members to buying what amounts to not much more than a "Row House" is very discriminating, to  say the least.


----------



## H2eau (8 May 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, not all CAF members are in the same boat when it comes to what size of property they may legitimately require.  I have know several who have owned horses and others who have bought "Hobby Farms".   To lump everyone into one category, which basically limits CAF members to buying what amounts to not much more than a "Row House" is very discriminating, to  say the least.



I understand what you are saying.  For us we didn't want to live in a subdivision so we ended up on the outskirts with more land than we actually need.  I don't regret the decision because the privacy and bonfires have been great.  Now I know we need to pay extra to get that.  Same with hobby farms.  It will cost the member money because it isn't fair for tax payers to pay for the member's hobby.


----------



## George Wallace (8 May 2013)

Nor is it fair to the member who has made a purchase that would upon retirement afford him less of an expense in their final move.  Is it now the policy of the CAF to 'bankrupt' its members, so that upon retirement after a long term of Service, they can not afford a home?  Way back when I did a CT, the best advice I got was from a RSS Sgt at my Reserve unit who advised me to buy a home on every Posting, so that when I retired I would own a home.  If this policy by the CAF and Brookfield is intentionally hamstringing members in investing towards their future retirement, then is a form of discrimination.  It is a crock.


----------



## dapaterson (8 May 2013)

The IRP is very clear about limits on lot sizes:

8.1.05 Lots and lot size
Core benefit
The reimbursement of expenses is limited to a lot size of:
· 1.25 acres (½ hectare); or
· up to four acres (2.47 hectares) where required by zoning laws and city bylaws.
If additional land is sold or purchased, CF members are entitled to reimbursement only for that portion of costs which would have been reimbursed within the above limitations.
(http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dcba/pdf/CFIRP_policy_A-PP-005-IRP-AG-001-1_11-12_e.pdf)


----------



## dapaterson (8 May 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, not all CAF members are in the same boat when it comes to what size of property they may legitimately require.  I have know several who have owned horses and others who have bought "Hobby Farms".   To lump everyone into one category, which basically limits CAF members to buying what amounts to not much more than a "Row House" is very discriminating, to  say the least.



How is it discriminating?  If you want a hobby farm, you pay for a hobby farm.  Its's a *want* not a *need*.

The CAF's role is not to subsidize your lifestyle choices.


----------



## captloadie (8 May 2013)

It is not the responsibility of the government to pay for my investments, be they property or not. The rules about the size of lot have been in place for at least five years. Nobody should be surprised. 

If my hobby is fixing up old cars, and I decide to buy a commercial lot with a garage to indulge my hobby, I wouldn't expect to be reimbursed by the government when it is time to move me. The same should apply to hobby farms, sugar bushes, and wood lots. 

And by the way, we're talking about realtor fees. Something most other Canadians have to pay out of pocket when they sell a house. So, if someone has to cough up an extra few grand to pay additional realty fees, I don't think we should complain, as it is the price we pay to get something outside the norm of today's housing  footprint (honestly, how many new homes do you see being built on lots larger than 1.25 acres).


----------



## DAA (8 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> No, it's ok.  I understand they have to put a cap on land size or you would have members buying 100s of acres each move, driving the value of their property which would be very expensive for DND to pay real estate fees.
> I do think the appraisaer should have given us two values, one based on the entire land and one on 1.25 just so we would know and see the difference.  However that didn't happen and we are moving on from this.  Lesson learned.  Don't buy too much land (or a nice property) if you aren't willing to pay for it.



On my most recent purchase, our property was situated on 10.5 Acres of land.  And I received FULL reimbursement on the purchase.  It took a bit of creative doing but I got it done......

My time spent as a DND Coord sure paid off!!!    :nod:


----------



## captloadie (8 May 2013)

But what will you receive on the sale, which is where the regs are more restrictive, and is more pertinent to this thread.


----------



## SentryMAn (8 May 2013)

Maybe a stupid move question, but give me a break I've never moved via Posting before.

I have 2 cars and will be shipping one to my new location after reco'n the market in the new area and the existing area I will be out too much money to sell here and buy there for a second car.

Do they normally treat cars/trucks well in the shipping aspect?  It makes the decision a bit easier if I know that it will arrive at destination scratched or possibly damaged.

I've got so many question without answers it is amazing!  lol


----------



## George Wallace (8 May 2013)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> Maybe a stupid move question, but give me a break I've never moved via Posting before.
> 
> I have 2 cars and will be shipping one to my new location after reco'n the market in the new area and the existing area I will be out too much money to sell here and buy there for a second car.
> 
> Do they normally treat cars/trucks well in the shipping aspect?  It makes the decision a bit easier if I know that it will arrive at destination scratched or possibly damaged.



Depends on the "Carrier" as to how well your belongings (including car/motorcycle/boat) will be treated.  Don't forget; they are insured to cover damages.


----------



## DAA (8 May 2013)

captloadie said:
			
		

> But what will you receive on the sale, which is where the regs are more restrictive, and is more pertinent to this thread.



The documentation that I used as part of the purchase will be used again should we decide to sell at a later date (if approval is granted on purchase, it automatically carries over to sale).  IRP originally balked at reimbursement and told me for anything over and above the 1.25 acres would require a minimum of two appraisals, which would have to be done at my own expense prior to any reimbursement.  However, they were willing to accept a "Letter of Value" from our Realtor showing that the property above the 1.25 acres was of little or no value.  Basically, if the house were on a 1.25 acre lot, we would have still paid the same price.  Also, lot sizes in our area are "restricted" and severances are not permitted, so I had to obtain a letter from the Ministry of Housing to that effect.

Worked for me....


----------



## 392 (8 May 2013)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> Maybe a stupid move question, but give me a break I've never moved via Posting before.
> 
> I have 2 cars and will be shipping one to my new location after reco'n the market in the new area and the existing area I will be out too much money to sell here and buy there for a second car.
> 
> ...



If you choose to ship your car, it will be done by civy veh transport company who will go over it with a fine tooth comb and check off every scratch, ding and dent prior to accepting it for tpt. Any damage done by them should be covered on the other end. FWIW, two postings ago, I had an excellent experience shipping my car, and it arrived about a day and a half after I did at my new location. YMMV.


----------



## DAA (8 May 2013)

H2eau said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying.  For us we didn't want to live in a subdivision so we ended up on the outskirts with more land than we actually need.  I don't regret the decision because the privacy and bonfires have been great.  Now I know we need to pay extra to get that.  Same with hobby farms.  It will cost the member money because it isn't fair for tax payers to pay for the member's hobby.



 :-\    Something just doesn't seem right here and I can only make assumptions at this point.  But I find it rather intriguing, that you had the CFIRP Appraisals done, contracted your Realtor, put the house on the market' provided a copy of the agreement to Brookefield and KABANG......right there, Brookefield should have seen it.  The "advertised/listed" selling price, exceeds the appraised value.........that is enough to raise the RED FLAGS!

If your interested, PM me your details and I will have a look at it.  No promises though of "riches" coming your way.....lol


----------



## PAdm (9 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Okay.......you need to pick a side here!


No side to pick. My point was you work your way up the chain when you do not get what you believe is an acceptable answer, or an answer that does not make sense, from Brookfield. I ended up with a successful grievance when I worked up the chain step by step and they all said "no" when I knew the answer was yes. The grievance was simply the next step in the process after IRP Adjudication said no.


----------



## DAA (9 May 2013)

PAdm said:
			
		

> No side to pick. My point was you work your way up the chain when you do not get what you believe is an acceptable answer, or an answer that does not make sense, from Brookfield. I ended up with a successful grievance when I worked up the chain step by step and they all said "no" when I knew the answer was yes. The grievance was simply the next step in the process after IRP Adjudication said no.



I was only pulling your leg with my comment.      But yes, you are right!  Sometimes when NO is not the correct answer, it does take a bit of doing to get the proper result.   DCBA liked me, at least I think they did, but only because I did all the ground work and then some, on the local end and provided sufficient information necessary so they could make a reasonably "informed" decision.  But what I found several times, was the CF member submitting a case to the DND Coord for adjudication and the submission being passed up to DCBA with the comment "For your adjudication action".     :facepalm:   

And my all time favourite was one base who appointed a "2Lt" as the DND Coord and that person used to just forward the members submission with no comments at all.     :rofl:


----------



## PAdm (10 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> And my all time favourite was one base who appointed a "2Lt" as the DND Coord and that person used to just forward the members submission with no comments at all.     :rofl:



I totally agree.  We do this to ourselves.  You need to have analysis and review at the base level.  The better the staff work at the base level, the better the chances of success.


----------



## technophile (22 May 2013)

I'm posted this summer and had my initial Brookfield appt. an issue came up during that meeting and surprised me (and I was corrected several times.)  When I referred to my " posting allowance" the Brookfield agent called it the " personalized envelope cash out" . I asked for clarification to be sure I wasn't messing something up and was told its no longer referred to as a posting allowance. 

Everything I can find outside of Brookfield still calls this a " posting allowance" .  Am I missing something ?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 May 2013)

No...it is still a PA but it goes into the Personalized envelope.

Check out the funding formulas and definitions here  http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2011/chapter-chapitre-01-eng.asp

I suggest you print and read the Manual; I have, Chap's 1-9 (rest aren't applic to me so I removed them) and went over the stuff that applies to me with a highlighter.   I put mine in a binder;  obviously I will look after my own best interest more than anyone else will.

Watch throughout the Manual for which expenses are covered under which envelope.  You can easily see where your PA can be eaten up.   :2c:


----------



## technophile (22 May 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Good advice. When I asked if they still gave out copies of " the book" I was looked at like I had a third eye


----------



## Eye In The Sky (22 May 2013)

PDF file is avail here.  Them not providing it puts the costs down to local IT "printer cartridge purchase" folks/fin codes.  "the appearance of savings"??


----------



## Occam (22 May 2013)

Had an interesting meeting with our real estate agent last night.  We're starting the process of my IPR move - my, two years post-release goes by quickly!

Our real estate agent tells us that the "usual" real estate commission these days is 5%, and they wanted to know if an IPR move had different rate than a regular "posting" move.  I checked with BGRS today - regardless of the type of move, they will only pay 4.1% for a real estate commission.

The real estate agent explained that the 4.1% limit really puts military/RCMP/PS personnel behind the 8-ball for a couple of reasons.  First, a real estate agent representing a buyer will see the 4.1% at the bottom of the MLS listing, and know right off the bat that it's a government relocation, and that the seller is likely on a timeline.  That puts the seller at a disadvantage.  Second, if buyers have come down to a short list of homes they're interested in, the buyer's real estate agent is going to try to steer buyers away from the government relocations at 4.1 in favour of other homes that are selling at a 5% commission rate, because it'll mean more money in their pocket.

The solution?  Advertise at a 5% commission rate, and pay the difference to the buyer's real estate agent out of pocket.  Unfortunately, that doesn't seem fair to the selling real estate agent, but unless you want to pay them the difference too in order to keep it fair, it is what it is.  The government put us in this position by not paying agents the going rate.


----------



## DAA (22 May 2013)

Occam said:
			
		

> Had an interesting meeting with our real estate agent last night.  We're starting the process of my IPR move - my, two years post-release goes by quickly!
> 
> Our real estate agent tells us that the "usual" real estate commission these days is 5%, and they wanted to know if an IPR move had different rate than a regular "posting" move.  I checked with BGRS today - regardless of the type of move, they will only pay 4.1% for a real estate commission.
> 
> ...



Couple of points to note......

1 - Real estate commissions vary from province to province.  And within the context of the CFIRP Manual they will also reflect that.
2 - The rates in the CFIRP Manual are based on "negotiated" rates from 3rd party suppliers who have "signed on" to the military/government relocation program.
3 - and most importantly, a Government relocation is, for the most part, a DONE DEAL, at very little cost to your selling agent.....unless your home is not "showable'sellable" or your asking price is too high or there is something else in the closet.

So the reduced Commission Rate on GoC relocations should actually be a "high value" target for Realtors given the fact that the property is a "quick" turnover with limited effort on their part.  If you have to sell, you have to sell and at some point you WILL have to sell.  The people that will try to take advantage is the BUYERS.  It's up to you and your Realtor to discuss all this and determine a reasonable selling price within the fair market value range.

Given our circumstances, we can't be the average "joe schmo" and price high, haggle, hold out, 60 day closings,etc, etc, etc and the list goes on and on......

Buy a home, with the intention of selling at a later date!!!


----------



## Occam (22 May 2013)

1.  Yes, I was aware of the fact that the rates varied but didn't mention it.  The 4.1% I referred to is in Ontario.

2.  Are they negotiated?  I have no reason to disbelieve you but I'll mention it to our agent just to see what they say.

3.  I can't speak to what their costs are.  That said, we've been watching properties in our neighbourhood very closely, and we asked the agent to give us the listings for them - and they're all selling at the 5% rate (none are military pers, and none are RCMP unless they've been hiding it well and wear plainclothes all the time).

I hope you're right - we're selling at or slightly below the median for similar properties in our area, in the hopes that it moves quickly and that will give us lots of time to be picky about what we want to move into before the two year period is up at end-Sep.


----------



## DAA (22 May 2013)

Occam said:
			
		

> 3.  I can't speak to what their costs are.  That said, we've been watching properties in our neighbourhood very closely, and we asked the agent to give us the listings for them - and they're all selling at the 5% rate (none are military pers, and none are RCMP unless they've been hiding it well and wear plainclothes all the time).
> 
> I hope you're right - we're selling at or slightly below the median for similar properties in our area, in the hopes that it moves quickly and that will give us lots of time to be picky about what we want to move into before the two year period is up at end-Sep.



Your right, the standard "rate" for Ontario is 5%.  However, given the fact that CF relocations move very very fast with very little effort on the part of Realtors in comparison to their "normal" client base, the rate is reduced.  So as long as your agent is listed as a "3rd Party Provider" on the IRP website, which you should be able to access, they already know the rules of play.  So you should check to see if your Agent is listed there.

Why does it sound like your Agent may have been involved with prior local sales involving people from OGD's (ie; DFAIT, CIDA, CIC, etc) and is rather "gun shy" expecting this to take a very long time?


----------



## Occam (22 May 2013)

They were listed in the directory when we bought our current home in 2008, although I can't seem to find them in the directory now.  I'd be very surprised if they're not listed - they've had several referrals from us (all military) who have all bought through them, and they're with one of the largest Royal Lepage brokerages in the city.  I can only assume that what they're telling me is based upon seeing it happen.


----------



## Trapster (25 May 2013)

Occam said:
			
		

> Had an interesting meeting with our real estate agent last night.  We're starting the process of my IPR move - my, two years post-release goes by quickly!
> 
> Our real estate agent tells us that the "usual" real estate commission these days is 5%, and they wanted to know if an IPR move had different rate than a regular "posting" move.  I checked with BGRS today - regardless of the type of move, they will only pay 4.1% for a real estate commission.
> 
> ...



I was told something almost identical to this, and I was going to ask if you were in Alberta (which is where I am).

After meeting with several realtors, I would suggest you not fall for this BS.

I was told that I should pay, out of pocket, the extra $1200 to $1300 to top this up to the normal going rate. At first, I thought "Well that makes sense" because we should be on an equal playing field as anybody else. But after thinking about it, and speaking to more realtors, they specifically addressed this. The bottom line is, you are being forced to move through your job, so why should you pay out of your own pocket just to line another person's pocket? This is a person who has agreed, by being on the Brookfield list, to the pre-set commission. If they don't like it, then don't be on the list.

The other realtors all told me they offer full commission to the buyer's agents in order to attract as many people to buy your home as possible, and agree to take a hit in commission in order to receive referrals and have their name spread in a favourable light. One of them told me he made $300 on a recent sale, with the buying agent making MUCH more, and he had no problem with it at all.


----------



## Sprinting Thistle (25 May 2013)

I would offer that any agent asking the member to pay out of pocket should be avoided.  After successfully buying and selling 7 houses due to postings I have never been proposition like this.  In fact, I have had agents offer to knock on doors of houses that I liked but were not for sale.  Same agents had no issues assisting in buying houses on Grapevine or similar websites with 2% commission.  I had one agent offer to provide a incentive out of her commission to potential buyers in a flat market.  The bottom line is that a good agent, whether they have participated in a sale associated with the military or not, will do their best for their client regardless of the commission.  The good ones know that we are a tight-knit community who will pass along our stories, whether good or bad.  The good ones will get repeat and refereed business and they rely on this.  

My thoughts based upon my limited experience.


----------



## Occam (25 May 2013)

Okay, I don't think people are fully understanding the issue here.

The going rate for real estate commissions in Ontario is 5%.

I employ Agent A to sell my house.  Agent A puts "4.1%" as the commission rate on the MLS listing sheet for the sale of the house.  Agent B comes along representing buyers.  Agent B knows right away that:

1. We're a government move, and that we may be faced with a timeline (and it puts us at a negotiating disadvantage if we are); and

2.  If Agent B gets their buyers down to a shortlist of a few homes, they can exert gentle pressure to homes that are listed at the going rate of 5%, which means steering them away from my home.

What was brought to our attention (and nothing more than that) was that if we wanted to take away those factors from coming into play with any potential buyers, then we should consider listing at 5% and paying Agent B the 2.5% (instead of 2.05%) commission rate, and pay the difference out of pocket.  At no point did they suggest we top up their (Agent A) commission rate.

It's not the agents who have created this situation; it's the government relocation policy that hasn't kept up with current rates for services.  Those outdated rates are having visible effects on government moves.

Again, I'm no longer serving - this is my IPR move (Intended Place of Residence).  I released 20 months ago.  I'm not being forced to move; I don't even have to move.  I'd like to move.  I also don't want my listing to appear as though I'm in a hurry to sell, and under the current policy, a potential buyer would see that "4.1%" rate in my MLS listing and be under the mistaken impression that they'll be able to knock my price down because I'm in a hurry to sell.  Nobody needs to see that we (or anyone else) are a government relocation, and that rate in the MLS listing is a dead giveaway.


----------



## Trapster (26 May 2013)

Occam said:
			
		

> Okay, I don't think people are fully understanding the issue here.
> 
> The going rate for real estate commissions in Ontario is 5%.
> 
> ...



I suppose that is slightly different, but my stance on the issue is generally the same. I've done quite a bit of research, and yes there is a generally accepted commission rate, but this is totally negotiable no matter where you are. So in order to make sure that point #2 does not come in to play, offer the buyer's agent full commission and slash your seller's commission. If they don't go for that, move on to one that will, because there will still be plenty of good one's who are willing to sell your house at a lower commission.


----------



## Occam (26 May 2013)

Trapster said:
			
		

> I suppose that is slightly different, but my stance on the issue is generally the same. I've done quite a bit of research, and yes there is a generally accepted commission rate, but this is totally negotiable no matter where you are. So in order to make sure that point #2 does not come in to play, offer the buyer's agent full commission and slash your seller's commission. If they don't go for that, move on to one that will, because there will still be plenty of good one's who are willing to sell your house at a lower commission.



I guess I'm of the opinion that the buyer's agent shouldn't benefit at the expense of my agent because the IRP won't cover "reasonable and customary" rates being charged by the industry.  Can the rates be negotiated? Sure.  Should they be?  Not in my opinion.  We're going to list at the 4.1% rate initially, and if the house sits for a while (and it shouldn't, because it's competitively priced) we'll re-evaluate whether that's something we want to revisit.


----------



## Pat in Halifax (26 May 2013)

Occam and others:
I understand the differring ideas on this. My brother is actually one of the 'listed' agents with KW in the 'book' in Ottawa. Like he said to me, many people (and realtors too) forget that the agent actually works for (and is paid by) the vendor. An agent not adhering to this may be construed as unscrupulous. I also grew up in a household with two parents as RE agents and heard a form of this MANY times. Unfortunately, we, the buying (and selling) public are letting some get away with the practice of not abiding by this rule. Kind of like tolerating politicians making up their own salaries and benefits.

Pat


----------



## CDNmilMBR (12 Feb 2014)

Could someone PM or post a PDF of the IPR election form from the DIN? Thanks.


----------



## dapaterson (12 Feb 2014)

From: http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/DHRIM/mhrrp/ch15/engraph/e15F07.doc


----------



## CDNmilMBR (12 Feb 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> From: http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/DHRIM/mhrrp/ch15/engraph/e15F07.doc



Thanks!


----------



## AirDet (12 Feb 2014)

Occam said:
			
		

> The government put us in this position by not paying agents the going rate.



I'd say the greed of the agents and their corporate handlers are who put us in this situation. I remember my first house purchase was 2%. Now here we are years later and their greed is staggering.

Thankfully, my house is fully paid and I have no intent of leaving.


----------



## mkil (15 Dec 2014)

Good Day all,

Kind of a weird situation I guess. I was recently posted to Bagotville from my QL3 in Borden. My posting message says "No Move and No Move of HG and E. No cost." I left Borden feeling very confused. Brookfield there said that I am entitled to half a months pay, as well as travel to my new post. Brookfield hadn't received authorization from my CM, and told me that my CoC needed to do this. I approached my CoC, and their response was that I was not entitled to anything as it was written in black and white "no cost". 

Fast Forward, I arrived in Bagotville and went to Brookfield here. One lady said that it is them who deals with the claim but I would have to come back on Monday (today) to have the bases Brookfield/Military liason  call my CM and get authorization for Brookfield. I did just that, only the woman working today in Brookfield says it isn't them, it is the Base who will deal with the claim. 

I am frustrated, as I have a friend recently posted under similar circumstances (No move, no cost) and received full travel and half a months pay from Brookfield. His was completely done and paid out before he left Borden. 

Does anyone know what is going on and who pays this claim? I have no idea how to proceed.


----------



## DAA (15 Dec 2014)

mkil said:
			
		

> Good Day all,
> 
> Kind of a weird situation I guess. I was recently posted to Bagotville from my QL3 in Borden. My posting message says "No Move and No Move of HG and E. No cost." I left Borden feeling very confused. Brookfield there said that I am entitled to half a months pay, as well as travel to my new post. Brookfield hadn't received authorization from my CM, and told me that my CoC needed to do this. I approached my CoC, and their response was that I was not entitled to anything as it was written in black and white "no cost".
> 
> ...



Which CFRC did you "enrol" from?


----------



## mkil (15 Dec 2014)

I enrolled in Chicoutimi, approx. 8 km from BFC Bagotville.


----------



## DAA (15 Dec 2014)

mkil said:
			
		

> I enrolled in Chicoutimi, approx. 8 km from BFC Bagotville.



Because you are now posted, within the Geographical Boundaries of the CFRC which Recruited'Enrolled you, your entitltements are governed by CFIRP Directive, Section 11.03.  To obtain a financial coding associated with your move, see Article 11.3.05

*** --->  http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-amend-ch11.page#sec-11-03

Your BOR should be able to tell you who the local CF Relocation Coordinator is and it is there responsibility to resolve the issue.  If you have problems in finding out just who that person is, PM me and I will send you there name.

You do have benefits coming, so don't let anyone tell you otherwise.........


----------



## mkil (15 Dec 2014)

The link you posted says:

Section 11.3 Local Moves
11.3.01 Purpose
This section describes the move entitlements for CF members *who are posted and are authorized a move of (D)HG&E* within the same place of duty as a result of that posting. 

I am not authorized a move of my HG&E, so maybe this does not apply to me. It does mention, however, that all CF members are entitled to something called a "movement grant" even if the move of HG&E is not authorized.


----------



## DAA (15 Dec 2014)

mkil said:
			
		

> The link you posted says:
> 
> Section 11.3 Local Moves
> 11.3.01 Purpose
> ...



Provided this is your "FIRST" move after enrolment, then you fall under Section 11.1 and seeing as you were recruited from that same area, you then default to Art 11.3.

Your's is a rare instance and should be sent up to DCBA for review, just to ensure that a proper ruling is provided.

This will all revolve around the "interpretation" of the statement in 11.1.03

11.1.03 Limitation of benefits

The benefits for a move from the place of enrolment are generally the same as those contained in Parts 1 and 2 except for the limitation on LTS.

When CF members are posted within the same place of duty but their HG&E is not located at the current place of duty, their move is not considered to be a move within the same place of duty.


----------



## mkil (28 Jan 2015)

mkil said:
			
		

> Good Day all,
> 
> Kind of a weird situation I guess. I was recently posted to Bagotville from my QL3 in Borden. My posting message says "No Move and No Move of HG and E. No cost." I left Borden feeling very confused. Brookfield there said that I am entitled to half a months pay, as well as travel to my new post. Brookfield hadn't received authorization from my CM, and told me that my CoC needed to do this. I approached my CoC, and their response was that I was not entitled to anything as it was written in black and white "no cost".
> 
> ...



Just to provide an update to my above situation:

My career manager (who is very new to the job) had never encountered the situation before, and claimed responsibility for the mix up. I received travel expenses (meals, hotel, gas and incidentals) as well as the moving allowance which is a taxable payout of 1/2 a months pay. The quoted documents from DAA were of great help when defending my claim to the Liaison.


----------



## Ex_RMP (18 Feb 2015)

Brookfield T4's.
Had the email stating the t4's would be with the individual by 28 Feb. Anyone know if they are out earlier or do they wait till the last minute.

Thanks


----------



## dapaterson (18 Feb 2015)

If you're registered with CRA, you can check for your T4s on their website.  My T4 for my employment as a public servant was posted to the CRA site before it was posted to the public service pay portal.


----------



## Ex_RMP (19 Feb 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you're registered with CRA, you can check for your T4s on their website.  My T4 for my employment as a public servant was posted to the CRA site before it was posted to the public service pay portal.



Thanks, I see my other T4's, just waiting in Brookfield


----------



## 2011Applicant (25 Nov 2015)

Good day.

I have just started the process of a move to Winnipeg for course through Brookfield. When I went in today for my initial planning session, I was told that I would not be authorized movement of HG&E from my current location because I am on prohibited posting even though CFHA gave me a PMQ. Instead, I'm only entitled to move from place of enrollment. I graduated from ROTP and was posted to BTL. 

Here's the kicker: 3 other individuals are in the same boat as me at different bases, going to the same course, and have been told that they can choose to be moved from either place of enrollment or their current location. I'm struggling to see where the interpretation was so different between them and me.

Is there anyone with more experience with these moves that might be able to shine some light on my situation?


----------



## DAA (25 Nov 2015)

Cherrysu said:
			
		

> Good day.
> 
> I have just started the process of a move to Winnipeg for course through Brookfield. When I went in today for my initial planning session, I was told that I would not be authorized movement of HG&E from my current location because I am on prohibited posting even though CFHA gave me a PMQ. Instead, I'm only entitled to move from place of enrollment. I graduated from ROTP and was posted to BTL.
> 
> ...



That's correct.  Apparently and from what you are saying, your Posting Instruction says "MOVE OF (D) HG&E PROHIBITED".   

What CFHA does, has no effect on this nor do the circumstances surrounding the other 3 people from the other locations that you have mentioned.

Can't shine much more light on this one, other than to guess that with a "Prohibited" move, it's going to be a Chap 11.2 relocation.


----------



## 2011Applicant (25 Nov 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> That's correct.  Apparently and from what you are saying, your Posting Instruction says "MOVE OF (D) HG&E PROHIBITED".
> 
> What CFHA does, has no effect on this nor do the circumstances surrounding the other 3 people from the other locations that you have mentioned.
> 
> Can't shine much more light on this one, other than to guess that with a "Prohibited" move, it's going to be a Chap 11.2 relocation.



I understand what you mean but I'll clarify my situation. The posting that I am on at the moment is prohibited (received back in May). I just received a new message for a restricted posting to Winnipeg.


----------



## 2011Applicant (25 Nov 2015)

I'm currently in Greenwood on a prohibited posting and just received a message for a restricted posting to Winnipeg. The Brookfield agent told me that I'm only entitled to move HG&E from my place of enrollment which is London unless I pay out of pocket for the uncovered amount. I know of three other individuals in the exact situation as I am on different bases (we're all being posted to Winnipeg for the same course, all on prohibited at our respective bases), however they've all been told they can choose a move from enrollment address or current place of duty. Although I understand that all moves are done on an individual basis, I'm just wondering if I or the agent are missing something here or interpreting something wrong.

All else fails I think I'm going to see the DND IRP coord and hope that they can help me figure out the situation, but I'd like to have an idea of what's going on beforehand and before I pull the trigger on a u-haul.


----------



## Zoomie (25 Nov 2015)

Unless things have changed drastically - your initial move from place of enrollment is not done through Brookfield - it's done directly through Base Traffic with your posting message as authority.

If your place of enrollment is not the same as where you are now (which is likely) you can request a change of F&E location with your Wing/Base AdminO as the Approval Authority.  Get into your closest OR and ask those questions - come ready to provide some suitable COAs.


----------



## 2011Applicant (25 Nov 2015)

Ditch said:
			
		

> Unless things have changed drastically - your initial move from place of enrollment is not done through Brookfield - it's done directly through Base Traffic with your posting message as authority.
> 
> If your place of enrollment is not the same as where you are now (which is likely) you can request a change of F&E location with your Wing/Base AdminO as the Approval Authority.  Get into your closest OR and ask those questions - come ready to provide some suitable COAs.



I didn't even know that was an option. Thanks!


----------



## kev994 (25 Nov 2015)

There was a clarification on these types of moves in 2006. If you can find that message it may help you out.


----------



## 2011Applicant (25 Nov 2015)

kev994 said:
			
		

> There was a clarification on these types of moves in 2006. If you can find that message it may help you out.



Like a CANFORGEN?


----------



## PuckChaser (25 Nov 2015)

Cherrysu said:
			
		

> Like a CANFORGEN?



Brookfield has policy clarifications on their website. http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2009-toc.page Best place to start would be there, then check CANFORGENs.


----------



## kev994 (25 Nov 2015)

It was more of a policy clarification, I think they used to post them on the cfirp website, it specifically cited pilots and navs being attached posted for extended periods while posted prohibited to Winnipeg.


----------



## DAA (26 Nov 2015)

Cherrysu said:
			
		

> I'm currently in Greenwood on a prohibited posting and just received a message for a restricted posting to Winnipeg. The Brookfield agent told me that I'm only entitled to move HG&E from my place of enrollment which is London unless I pay out of pocket for the uncovered amount. I know of three other individuals in the exact situation as I am on different bases (we're all being posted to Winnipeg for the same course, all on prohibited at our respective bases), however they've all been told they can choose a move from enrollment address or current place of duty. Although I understand that all moves are done on an individual basis, I'm just wondering if I or the agent are missing something here or interpreting something wrong.
> 
> All else fails I think I'm going to see the DND IRP coord and hope that they can help me figure out the situation, but I'd like to have an idea of what's going on beforehand and before I pull the trigger on a u-haul.



Now that makes much more sense.  As a graduate of the ROTP program, your move will be managed by Brookfield based on 1.1.03

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-ch1.page#art-01-01-03

Your relocation benefits will be calculated based on a Move from Place of Enrolment under 11.1

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/2014-directive-ch11.page#sec-11-01

At one time, the CFIRP Policies did allow certain discretions (ie; split moves, moves from other than place of enrolment with no cost restrictions, etc) when it came to ROTP (RMC Students in particular) graduates but I do believe, that this is no longer the case.

You can speak with your local DND IRP Coord but they will probably tell you the same thing above.


----------



## Lumber (26 Nov 2015)

DAA said:
			
		

> At one time, the CFIRP Policies did allow certain discretions (ie; split moves, moves from other than place of enrolment with no cost restrictions, etc) when it came to ROTP (RMC Students in particular) graduates but I do believe, that this is no longer the case.
> 
> You can speak with your local DND IRP Coord but they will probably tell you the same thing above.



I've had friends from RMC who had the same problem.

When we were in 4th year, we were permitted to move off campus and live in houses. We were also entitled to a full move of HG&E through Brookfield from our place of enrollment to Kingston. I personally only moved a bed, a desk and a small shelving unit, because I didn't have much else at my parents. This was considered my "initial move", and as a result, when I got posted to Victoria after Graduation, I got a full move from Kingston to Victoria.

This was not the case for everyone. I had an air force friend, for example, who enrolled in Calgary. When he moved out in 4th year, he did not take advantage of an "initial" move through Brookfield. He said that his parents had thrown out all his major furniture. As a result, when he graduated and was posted back to Alberta to await pilot training, he was only he entitled to a move from his place of enrollment to his new place of duty. Problem was, he had amassed a bunch of furniture while living off-campus in Kingston (bed, dressers, etc). He was told that because he had not yet taken an "initial move" he was crap-out-of-luck. He could organize the move himself and Brookfield would give him the cash value of wahtever the cost of a move from his place of enrollment to his new job in Calgary would be, but thats all.


----------



## DAA (26 Nov 2015)

:goodpost:

Awesome example and "exactly" how things work.   It was a dogs breakfast and in several instances, RMC Students who chose to live-out, ended up with the short straw come posting time.


----------



## runormal (26 Nov 2015)

Lumber said:
			
		

> I've had friends from RMC who had the same problem.
> 
> When we were in 4th year, we were permitted to move off campus and live in houses. We were also entitled to a full move of HG&E through Brookfield from our place of enrollment to Kingston. I personally only moved a bed, a desk and a small shelving unit, because I didn't have much else at my parents. This was considered my "initial move", and as a result, when I got posted to Victoria after Graduation, I got a full move from Kingston to Victoria.
> 
> This was not the case for everyone. I had an air force friend, for example, who enrolled in Calgary. When he moved out in 4th year, he did not take advantage of an "initial" move through Brookfield. He said that his parents had thrown out all his major furniture. As a result, when he graduated and was posted back to Alberta to await pilot training, he was only he entitled to a move from his place of enrollment to his new place of duty. Problem was, he had amassed a bunch of furniture while living off-campus in Kingston (bed, dressers, etc). He was told that because he had not yet taken an "initial move" he was crap-out-of-luck. He could organize the move himself and Brookfield would give him the cash value of wahtever the cost of a move from his place of enrollment to his new job in Calgary would be, but thats all.



Let me make sure I understand this correctly...

I have applied for ROTP via the CT (U) program.. Assuming if and when I get an offer this will be important.

My mom lives in City A, I attended school in City B (8 hours from my Mom), I enrolled in the reserves in City B, I`m done my undergrad now and I am now in City C on attach posting. The vast majority of my Items are in City A (My dad moved them back for me). 

If when I get an offer I will need to move all items from City C (mainly clothes, army kit, school supplies and hockey equipment)  either back to my mom`s or bring them with me to Kingston and once I`m in my 4th my year do my Initial move from City A to Kingston and then once I get posted for training I can get all my stuff moved from Kingston to whereve I end up?

Or since I will be technically releasing and re-renrolling into the regforce will Kingston be considered my new enrollment point?



-----------------
Edit:
I think i`ll be given similiar benefits to thos who transfer over through the UTPNCM program as per  Section 4.9

CF Military Personnel Instruction 03/08 http://cmpapp.mil.ca/dgmc/pg/iss-si/ct-tee/ct-app-tee-eng.asp:

4.9 Component Transfer Career Programs

  





> All CT applicants selected for attendance to an RMC program and meeting the OFP status under this instruction shall be treated as if they were UTPNCM candidates. CT applicants who do not meet the OFP status shall be treated as if they were ROTP candidates


----------



## Lumber (26 Nov 2015)

runormal said:
			
		

> Let me make sure I understand this correctly...
> 
> I have applied for ROTP via the CT (U) program.. Assuming if and when I get an offer this will be important.
> 
> ...



They don't allow living off in 4th year any more, so it's kind of moot. You won't get an initial move to Kingston, so yes, you would have to have everything you want shipped to your new posting in City A.

However, yours is an odd situation because you are in the reserves, but I would say that whatever CFRC processed your transfer to the reg force would be your place of enrollment.


----------



## runormal (26 Nov 2015)

Lumber said:
			
		

> They don't allow living off in 4th year any more, so it's kind of moot. You won't get an initial move to Kingston, so yes, you would have to have everything you want shipped to your new posting in City A.
> 
> However, yours is an odd situation because you are in the reserves, but I would say that whatever CFRC processed your transfer to the reg force would be your place of enrollment.



_If _  that is the case I`m being processed through city B (where my reserve unit is and where I went to school).

Is this going to end up biting me? My MPRR has my current address and my Furniture and Effects as my mom`s house (City A),


----------



## DAA (26 Nov 2015)

runormal said:
			
		

> _If _  that is the case I`m being processed through city B (where my reserve unit is and where I went to school).
> 
> Is this going to end up biting me? My MPRR has my current address and my Furniture and Effects as my mom`s house (City A),



The move of your (D)HG&E will normally be based on the "geographical" boundaries of your "transferring" Unit.  As a Component Transfer, these are the questions you need to ask from DMCPG 5-2 when and if an offer is made.


----------



## RyanC (7 Jan 2016)

Good day,

I was hoping if a Brookfield guru will be able to help me out. I have been posted about 8 months ago and everything went more or less fine, my realtor helped me find a great apartment and everything was peachy.

Now 8 months later I am buying a house so I rechecked all my entitlements and then called my brookfield agent before putting an offer and  10 000$ deposit on a house. So I asked three very basic straight forward questions which were. "Is Brookfield going to pay out for my land transfer tax" The answer being yes! And second "are you paying my lawyer fees" My agents answer being yes absolutely and the third question being "So I am completely covered when I buy my house?" And of course her answer was YES!,, So with a smile on my face and feeling that I have done my due diligence I went ahead and put my 10 000$ non refundable deposit on my house.

Fast forward 2 months later a week before closing and suddenly Brookfield will not pay my lawyer fees which ends up being roughly 900$! The reason that brookfield gave me was since I took a realtor for my HHT for my rental that I was no longer entitled to my lawyer fee expenses. ?

I have not found this in any of the literature nor did my agent inform me of this when I decided to use a realtor for my rental search  and after asking her if my lawyer fees were covered and being straight up lied to I think I am well within my rights to be pretty peeved. If I had the proper information before hand it would have really changed my house hunting plans.

Is there anything I can do in this situation? Or can I just grab my ankles and hope for the best?


----------



## MARS (7 Jan 2016)

Just checked the IRP directive online - yup, its in there buds.  In fact, there is an entire, albeit short, chapter dedicated to renting then purchasing at a later date and the limitations of doing this.

It does look like you have some options though, but I think it requires you to return the realtor fees.  I havent had to do it so I will stop there and suggest you give the manual another read.


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Jan 2016)

Your lawyer fees are reimbursed up to a certain amount, if you use a lawyer not on the approved list, its covered up to the negotiated rate. Anything above that is on you.


----------



## RyanC (7 Jan 2016)

MARS said:
			
		

> Just checked the IRP directive online - yup, its in there buds.  In fact, there is an entire, albeit short, chapter dedicated to renting then purchasing at a later date and the limitations of doing this.
> 
> It does look like you have some options though, but I think it requires you to return the realtor fees.  I havent had to do it so I will stop there and suggest you give the manual another read.



Have a link to the manual?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Jan 2016)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/toc-byyear.page


----------



## CountDC (13 Jan 2016)

before anyone jumps on - yes I am being lazy this time and trying for the easy out instead of searching through the pubs.

My query is - if a mbr is posted, goes on HHT, moves family and then say within 6 months to a year at new location decides nope not for me so pulls plug is there any possible repurcussions?  I don't believe there is but sometimes there is that one little thing hiding away that pops out to bite.


----------



## Schifty (13 Mar 2016)

Hi all,


              i'm at Valcartier since 2005, so now i may will post to Gagetown this summer. In 2005 was Royal Lepage manage all posting, but now its Brookfield. I just want to know what thing they care about, like new welcome taxes.. etc

thanks


----------



## Schifty (13 Mar 2016)

Dont really found any answer to this


----------



## PuckChaser (13 Mar 2016)

Schifty said:
			
		

> Dont really found any answer to this



You didn't really ask a specific question. Brookfield just manages IRP policy, nothing more, nothing less. They only "care" about that policy being administered properly and fairly.


----------



## SupersonicMax (13 Mar 2016)

Et voici la politique.  http://www.forces.gc.ca/fr/a-propos-politiques-normes-avantages-reinstallation/2009-tdm.page Les conseillers de Brookfield vont t'aider et te guider lors de ton premier rendez-vous.  Je te conseille de lire la politique afin d'avoir une idée de tes avantages avant ton rendez-vous.


----------



## Pusser (14 Mar 2016)

It is important to note that the change from Royal LePage to Brookfield was really just a name change.  It's the same company, still administering the same policy.


----------



## armyman7877 (1 May 2016)

Hi  I live in the west and a bought a home three years ago for 280,000. I am being posted this summer and the appraisal listed us for 295,000. This time last year the same home was selling for 330,000. We are listed just  over 295,000 and we are are having a lot of trouble selling our home. We have been on the market for close to two months no visits. We have kids in early elementary so moving before a new school year starts is ideal but we do not want to take to much of a loss.. If anyone has any helpful tips on selling  it would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to know does Brookfeild give incentives to sell your home at the appraisers value or the price you paid?  Thanks!  What I mean is the realtor wants us to lower the price to less then we paid for because that is what the comps are now selling for.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (1 May 2016)

If you sell for anything over 280k, how have you taken a loss?

The appraised value is fairly meaningless.


----------



## CountDC (1 May 2016)

Talk to your Brookfield agent and read the pubs on their site.  There are policies in place for a loss if you actually incur one with a cap on how much.


----------



## putz (13 Jul 2016)

So I got an interesting call from Brookfield today....

I'm in Alberta and being posted to another Alberta base.  Our house has been listed for a couple of months with only a couple of viewings but no offers.  I took the family on our HHT a month ago.  Brookfield wanted an update and I told them that house hadn't sold yet and might be going unaccompanied until house sells.  

They said that if that happens they will recover the cost for the HHT and the reimburse it once the house sells.  I said that the house is staying on the market, we'd dropped price once and are looking at dropping below appraised next.  

Standard Brookfield response of "its in the policy" etc etc.  Anyone know of any recourse I have for this or am I seriously looking at having to reimburse 4k just to have it reimburse used to me again in a few months time.

As anyone in Alberta knows it's incredibly hard to sell right now.  Particularly if your outside the cities.


----------



## dapaterson (13 Jul 2016)

I suspect they are referring to this:



> 4.2.07 Recovery of HHT expenses
> CF members who exercise the HHT benefit and subsequently re-occupy their former residence will be subject to recovery action. Recovery action shall be for the difference between the additional expenses received from the HHT and the entitlements authorized on a DIT. This shall include savings incentives that have been paid to personalized funds.



A quick (not comprehensive) review of the RCMP and NJC policies shows no similar clause.

http://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/index.php?sid=107&hl=1&lang=eng 

http://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/index.php?sid=107&hl=1&lang=eng


----------



## putz (13 Jul 2016)

I read that as well.  My point to that is though my principal residence is still up for sale and I can't afford to move the family.  Technically I'm not reoccupying my residence????  Anybody know who I can address this matter to?


----------



## DAA (13 Jul 2016)

putz said:
			
		

> So I got an interesting call from Brookfield today....
> I'm in Alberta and being posted to another Alberta base.  Our house has been listed for a couple of months with only a couple of viewings but no offers.  I took the family on our HHT a month ago.  Brookfield wanted an update and I told them that house hadn't sold yet and might be going unaccompanied until house sells.
> They said that if that happens they will recover the cost for the HHT and the reimburse it once the house sells.  I said that the house is staying on the market, we'd dropped price once and are looking at dropping below appraised next.
> Standard Brookfield response of "its in the policy" etc etc.  Anyone know of any recourse I have for this or am I seriously looking at having to reimburse 4k just to have it reimburse used to me again in a few months time.
> As anyone in Alberta knows it's incredibly hard to sell right now.  Particularly if your outside the cities.



No, that's not quite how things work.  Based on past experience, if your current home has already not been sold, the Brookfield Rep/Office will tend to NOT recommend taking an HHT, which is quite common but at the end of the day, it's your CO who is the approving authority and I can't recall anyone ever being denied.  Nevertheless, if your HHT is unsuccessful, for whatever reason (and I can probably figure out why, given it's Alberta) and you choose to relocate "unaccompanied" on a temporary basis, which is your choice, the funds should NOT be recovered.  Your relocation file will remain "open" and you need to continue to explore both your purchase and sale options as quickly as possible.

If you decide to relocate on your own and have your family remain in the current location, then you will be administered under Sect 11.2 of the CFIRP Manual.  Keep in mind, that such a relocation should ONLY be for 6 months in duration at the most but if you think the time could be longer, you need to consider applying for an Imposed Restriction at your earliest opportunity.

The only time HHT benefits would be "recovered", are in circumstances where a complete relocation to the new location never took place.  Example being, if you were posted from Edmonton to Cold Lake, while owning a home in Edmonton.  Relocated to Cold Lake unaccompanied and subsequently posted back to Edmonton, reoccupying your family home.

If you have concerns over what your Brookfield Rep has told you and have questions, I'd suggest you visit your Base Orderly Room and ask to speak with the DND CFIRP Coordinator, who should make themselves available to assist you.


----------



## armyman7877 (13 Jul 2016)

We are in the exact same boat as you are!! We are posted out West as well. We have had our home listed since April 1 had three open homes 10 plus viewings and 20,000 dollar price drop. Our agent can't figure out why we are not selling our home shows well but the market is really down out here. I'm going alone in three weeks until our home sell. As far as brookfield goes they told us that they only allow one house hunting trip and one move. We didn't take our yet but are thinking of going anyways because at this point it doesn't matter if we don't sell. They allow you up to six months before you go on Ir. The family will be staying put until the house is sold whenever that is. A few tips they gave us was to add a decorating bonus from your custom to attract buyers. You can do this if your home is on the market for 60 days. Some of our friends have had success by offering a selling bonus to the agent of 1000 dollars if they can sell your home quick.  A few people we know have know have had success by planting a saint joseph statue upside down by there for sale sign. it's may be a long shot but anything is worth a try. Brookefield doesn't pay for it but sometimes Brookfeilds fee can be two low for the agents to push your home in a slow market here they pay 3.8 and the going rate here is  5 percent so adding a 1000 or 2000 may be better then dropping your price say 10000. There are at least five others out West here at this base not selling this year. We are taking a loss at this point but we don't care right now. Sorry for the spelling but I am french.


----------



## armyman7877 (13 Jul 2016)

Our point on taking on hht is that I will be at  a new base anyways with lots of time to look for housing if we put a conditional offer on another and loose this one. At least we recover some money from doing a hht because all the open houses and showings cost money. You need to be away from your home for hours at a time meals, cleanings it can get exhuasting as we have been on the market for 100 plus days now and our kids are still quite young.


----------



## putz (13 Jul 2016)

DAA said:
			
		

> No, that's not quite how things work.  Based on past experience, if your current home has already not been sold, the Brookfield Rep/Office will tend to NOT recommend taking an HHT, which is quite common but at the end of the day, it's your CO who is the approving authority and I can't recall anyone ever being denied.  Nevertheless, if your HHT is unsuccessful, for whatever reason (and I can probably figure out why, given it's Alberta) and you choose to relocate "unaccompanied" on a temporary basis, which is your choice, the funds should NOT be recovered.  Your relocation file will remain "open" and you need to continue to explore both your purchase and sale options as quickly as possible.
> 
> If you decide to relocate on your own and have your family remain in the current location, then you will be administered under Sect 11.2 of the CFIRP Manual.  Keep in mind, that such a relocation should ONLY be for 6 months in duration at the most but if you think the time could be longer, you need to consider applying for an Imposed Restriction at your earliest opportunity.
> 
> ...



Amazing answer!  That's what I was thinking when I read the policy.  When speaking with Brookfeild direct about it all I got was the standard "It's the policy".  I'll speak with the CFIRP coordinator ASAP.  My only issue is this came from the Brookfield people in Kingston as all the people on my base have quit or are leaving end of this week.  Apparently they are going to rotate staff through from Edmonton until their person being hired is trained.


----------



## putz (13 Jul 2016)

armyman7877 said:
			
		

> We are in the exact same boat as you are!! We are posted out West as well. We have had our home listed since April 1 had three open homes 10 plus viewings and 20,000 dollar price drop. Our agent can't figure out why we are not selling our home shows well but the market is really down out here. I'm going alone in three weeks until our home sell. As far as brookfield goes they told us that they only allow one house hunting trip and one move. We didn't take our yet but are thinking of going anyways because at this point it doesn't matter if we don't sell. They allow you up to six months before you go on Ir. The family will be staying put until the house is sold whenever that is. A few tips they gave us was to add a decorating bonus from your custom to attract buyers. You can do this if your home is on the market for 60 days. Some of our friends have had success by offering a selling bonus to the agent of 1000 dollars if they can sell your home quick.  A few people we know have know have had success by planting a saint joseph statue upside down by there for sale sign. it's may be a long shot but anything is worth a try. Brookefield doesn't pay for it but sometimes Brookfeilds fee can be two low for the agents to push your home in a slow market here they pay 3.8 and the going rate here is  5 percent so adding a 1000 or 2000 may be better then dropping your price say 10000. There are at least five others out West here at this base not selling this year. We are taking a loss at this point but we don't care right now. Sorry for the spelling but I am french.



Economy is hit hard here... on one block alone there are 5 houses for sale!  I understand what your saying about realtor fees.  Our realtor straight up told us that some agents give Government contracts low priority as their commission is higher for others.


----------



## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (15 Jul 2016)

armyman7877 said:
			
		

> We are in the exact same boat as you are!! We are posted out West as well. We have had our home listed since April 1 had three open homes 10 plus viewings and 20,000 dollar price drop. Our agent can't figure out why we are not selling our home shows well but the market is really down out here. I'm going alone in three weeks until our home sell. As far as brookfield goes they told us that they only allow one house hunting trip and one move. We didn't take our yet but are thinking of going anyways because at this point it doesn't matter if we don't sell. They allow you up to six months before you go on Ir. The family will be staying put until the house is sold whenever that is. A few tips they gave us was to add a decorating bonus from your custom to attract buyers. You can do this if your home is on the market for 60 days. Some of our friends have had success by offering a selling bonus to the agent of 1000 dollars if they can sell your home quick.  A few people we know have know have had success by planting a saint joseph statue upside down by there for sale sign. it's may be a long shot but anything is worth a try. Brookefield doesn't pay for it but sometimes Brookfeilds fee can be two low for the agents to push your home in a slow market here they pay 3.8 and the going rate here is  5 percent so adding a 1000 or 2000 may be better then dropping your price say 10000. There are at least five others out West here at this base not selling this year. We are taking a loss at this point but we don't care right now. Sorry for the spelling but I am french.



What sells houses is price. We're starting to see the market turn and people that bought houses less than 3 years ago are very likely going to take losses. This is probably going to be a trend for the next few years. But honestly, if the house isn't selling and isn't getting views than no amount of decorating budgets will sell a house that's over priced by tens of thousands in a saturated market.


----------



## armyman7877 (15 Jul 2016)

Yes that is a good point but We are the lowest priced in our neighborhood at this moment. Three years ago we bought a brand new townhouse but the oil market has crashed and they are now still building a brand new division for home for 20 thousand less then they were selling a few years ago.  Any suggestions Would the best solution be to drop the price more and try to get reimbursed for a loss ? Is this a complicated process?


----------



## captloadie (15 Jul 2016)

Armyman7877,
If you are in Cold Lake, here's my advice. Find out which realtors are selling the most houses this year, and if its not yours switch (Donna Michaud used to be the big name in town, but I'm not sure who it is this year). If you want to keep the family together, consider renting it out for the next few years, until the rebound happens. Or be prepared to lose a significant amount, and not get your money back through HEA. The problem with Cold Lake this year is houses aren't selling, because most people can't afford to take the loss. So when TB check to see if the market is depressed, the numbers won't cut it, because nothing is selling.


----------



## armyman7877 (20 Jul 2016)

We have a conditional offer on the house  way below the appraised value on it the other people sell their home. I'm just happy to maybe sell. I have to report to my new base and they informed me I will be living in the shacks  because they have room and have to pay nearly 600 dollars for a ration card until the house is sold and the family moves. We get no separation expense and are a one income family with 3 plus dependents so shelling out 600 bucks is most of our families grocery money now we have to have this deducted off my pay for one person.  losing money on the house is a real hardship. When I complained to Brookfield they said that this is new policy.


----------



## PuckChaser (20 Jul 2016)

Most bases allow you to delink rations and quarters, as long as there's a kitchenette to cook meals. The ration price is expensive because you're paying for the food they throw out every day, not just what you're eating.


----------



## putz (25 Jul 2016)

armyman7877 said:
			
		

> We have a conditional offer on the house  way below the appraised value on it the other people sell their home. I'm just happy to maybe sell. I have to report to my new base and they informed me I will be living in the shacks  because they have room and have to pay nearly 600 dollars for a ration card until the house is sold and the family moves. We get no separation expense and are a one income family with 3 plus dependents so shelling out 600 bucks is most of our families grocery money now we have to have this deducted off my pay for one person.  losing money on the house is a real hardship. When I complained to Brookfield they said that this is new policy.



I thought you're allowed a 6 month unaccompanied that covers food and quarters.


----------



## Lumber (30 Aug 2016)

Not sure if this is the right thread.

Quick question, but I may have more to follow:

If a member is on prohibited posting, but their place of duty does not have any military accommodations (no singles quarters, nothing), then where will the CAF expect them to stay? In a hotel at public expense?

Cheers


----------



## dapaterson (30 Aug 2016)

CBI 208.997 provides details; look for "Separation Expense"

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits-relocation/ch-208-relocation-benefits.page#sec-208-997


----------

