# Problems with CADPAT



## redleafjumper (19 Sep 2005)

There has been some mention on other threads of the fading problem with the new CADPAT uniform.  Along with that problem, are there any other concerns or issues that people have experienced with the new uniforms?  Along with that, are there any improvements that people would like to see?


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## KevinB (19 Sep 2005)

General
- less flamable
- increase breathability.

Top
- remove the pockets from the chest and move to upper arm area. or go with a lowprofile pocket (a la US) and same low profiel on upper arms.
- remove lower pockets entirely.

Pant
- shrink the lower cargo pockets and tilt so they can be accessed in the prone or seated.


It is a Cbt uniform not a garrison uniform - and the pockets on the chest/torso are obscured by armour and make it more uncomfortable.


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## jswift872 (19 Sep 2005)

Good points there Kevin. I have been in just over a year (not along time at all compared to some of you) but, I have yet to use those lower top pockets....Everything goes in my pants pocket, lol


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## reccecrewman (19 Sep 2005)

Get rid of those damned button covers.  Thats taking the whole cam thing to the far extreme.  It's a pain in the a** to try and access those pockets with that ultra narrow pocket covering up the button.  Aside from that, I have no real qualms about our uniforms.

(A 4th and................................ whoa! maybe a 5th set of combats would be the cats a** though)


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## Franko (19 Sep 2005)

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Get rid of those damned button covers.   Thats taking the whole cam thing to the far extreme.   It's a pain in the a** to try and access those pockets with that ultra narrow pocket covering up the button.   Aside from that, I have no real qualms about our uniforms.
> 
> (A 4th and................................ whoa! maybe a 5th set of combats would be the cats a** though)



 :

The covers are there to prevent FOD...Foreign Object damage for flight crews. The committee on the procurement of newer combats made the decision to make it generic across the board for all elements...saving supposed millions in procuring special "anti-FOD" combats for aircrews.

Get your facts straight.

Regards


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Sep 2005)

CADPAT not a garrison uniform?  Pray tell, what do we wear in garrison, then?   ???

Maybe we could invent some kind of camouflage jacket to wear over top of a tan shirt - and some nice high-top shiny boots and dark green pants.  Can't think of anything more suitable for office or maintenance work.  We could call it....mmm, nothing comes to mind, I'll get back to you on that one.


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## MP 811 (19 Sep 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> CADPAT not a garrison uniform?   Pray tell, what do we wear in garrison, then?     ???
> 
> Maybe we could invent some kind of camouflage jacket to wear over top of a tan shirt - and some nice high-top shiny boots and dark green pants.   Can't think of anything more suitable for office or maintenance work.   We could call it....mmm, nothing comes to mind, I'll get back to you on that one.



LOL..............maybe we could contact Canadian Tire for some cost estimates..................... ;D


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## KevinB (19 Sep 2005)

;D

Cute Michael...  
 It did look good (well not the paint by number jacket)

 I have nothing against wearing CADPAT in garrison - just that the uniform should be optimised for combat


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## WogCpl (19 Sep 2005)

I dont know who came up with the button covers but they are awesome, keeps me from getting hung up in a camnet like a fly in a spiders web.
I have to agree with Kevin though just s**tcan pockets on the shirt entirely!


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

KevinB you are bang on the money with reconfiguring the pockets!
I have always hated the way they were set-up.

I don't mind the button covers, but I definately found the uncovered buttons easier to get into.


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## Observer23 (19 Sep 2005)

Shirt
I like the idea of shoulder pockets.  I can't remember the number of times I've had to get undressed just to get something out of a chest pocket (when wearing body armour, etc).  I would keep a chest pocket of some nature.  Maybe not the standard pack of smokes pocket but something flatter and broader (for folded doc).  Since this is a field uniform, I might consider adding a hood to help w/ cam.

Pants
I think I would add a Fd Dressing pocket of the side of the calve.


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## trajectomologist (19 Sep 2005)

Shirt - 
I don't really enjoy the front pockets, they bulge and get in the way. Perhaps a sleeker design might be nice. Maybe a different style of button/closure.
Pockets on the sleeve would be nice, but what about summer dress?
Oh, and I know that they're there for a reason... but DRAWSTRINGS SUCK!! nothin' like seeing a sergeant major walk out with a big bow dangling between his legs, or Pte Goofy Mcgoof with the middle one done up so tight it looks like he's wearing a dress.
They could just be tapered, the way the Americans do.

Pants - 
Would be nice to see an angled pocket, perhaps a two-in-one pocket... so stuff doesn't move around so much.

Overall - 
Sizing... it goes my fours!! Who grows/looses four inches at a time? I went from wearing a 32" waist in the old stuff to a 34" in the new stuff which was okay to start... but when those got to be too baggy, I had to drop to the 30"... and that wasn't physically possible.
*** I do know that the old stuff went in fours as well, but you had a little bit of play between the different manufacturers (ie white tag, green tag)


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## Scoobie Newbie (19 Sep 2005)

just start adding a pocket to each sleeve for any new shirts in the system


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## Scoobie Newbie (19 Sep 2005)

further, I doubt the powers that be would reinvent the wheel for our cmbts but adding a pocket the same dimension as the ones we already have shouldn't cost all the much more in the long run.


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## DSB (19 Sep 2005)

I love the lower shirt pockets.  I hate having stuff banging against my knees all the time.  With stuff in your shirt pocket, you can toss your tac-vest on over top and everything is nice and secure.  Getting to it is another issue mind you.

DSB


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## KevinB (19 Sep 2005)

FWIW - my idea of the perfect combat ensemble.
Crye Precisions combat Gear

http://www.cryeprecision.com/HTLM/products/index.htm



















Make it in CADPAT and CADPAT AR and there you go...

I've got a set in Multicam and it is by far the best unifrom set up I have every seen/used.


DSB - try armour...  :


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## Scoobie Newbie (19 Sep 2005)

Does CTS have a shelf life?


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## brin11 (19 Sep 2005)

There's nothing wrong with having the lower pockets still present.   If wearing armour, don't use them.   This is assuming that the other pockets have been added.   I use the lower pockets for putting weapons parts into while doing a repair in the field, hard to lose them there.


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

KevinB, if they had that in CADPAT I would own it.


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## D-n-A (19 Sep 2005)

I agree with most of what everyone else has said.   If we could get a shirt like the USMC MARPAT, I think that would work great, slanted pockets on chest and sleeves. An get rid of the drawstrings, just have the shirts "fitted" like the US combat(BDU,MARPA ACU, etc) uniforms. Maybe add internal pockets for knee an elbowpads aswell.


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## career_radio-checker (19 Sep 2005)

My beef with the uniform is that it only comes in two sizes --- too big and too small


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## Infanteer (19 Sep 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> FWIW - my idea of the perfect combat ensemble.
> Crye Precisions combat Gear



+1.

Amazing how the private market can design and market a product that is twice as good and have it out in half the time when compared to CTS.... :


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## Pte_Martin (19 Sep 2005)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> My beef with the uniform is that it only comes in two sizes --- too big and too small



Good one i agree  it seems nothing fits just right


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## Sig_Des (21 Sep 2005)

I absolutely love that Crye uniform


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## GNR (21 Sep 2005)

Anyone know of somewhere that would make something similiar to the Crye stuff in CADPAT? 
I'm sure RSMs everywhere would allow us to wear it in the field.


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## Matt_Fisher (21 Sep 2005)

Another company making some really innovative stuff is Integrated Combat Equipment aka ICE Tactical out of Bowen Island, BC.   Check out their website at www.icetactical.com for a few pics of their 'battle shirt' and combat pants.

What I'd have loved to seen done to the CF shirt would be to put on sleeve pockets and make the upper chest pockets larger, but accessible through the sides like the Crye Field Shirt so that when you're wearing armor, you can insert your hands through the arm holes on the ballistic vest and reach into your chest pockets.   
Lower pockets are such a user preference that it's hard to say get rid of them, or keep them.   Some people who tuck their trousers in, hate the lower pockets as they cause the shirt to get all bunched up, whereas other people who like to keep the shirt untucked, like the pockets for putting things like FMPs, maps, compasses, etc. in.   Perhaps a comprimise might be found if the lower pockets were detachable through a lightweight MOLLE webbing setup, similar to that used on the Crye range vest?   A removable lower pocket could be something along the lines of the Emdom Small Utili-Shingle.   http://stores.skipjack.com/emdomusa/Detail.bok?no=10
The covered buttons are definitely a good idea as when I was in, I was constantly getting the buttons snagged on cam nets and other stuff.   It might work easier though to replace one large covered button in the center, with 2 small ones on the sides of the pocket flap to make it more manageable to manipulate the button.

I think that this threat should be moved to the Equipment Forum.


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## Michael Dorosh (21 Sep 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> +1.
> 
> Amazing how the private market can design and market a product that is twice as good and have it out in half the time when compared to CTS.... :



Amazing how you can judge the suitability of a piece of combat equipment by looking at two or three pictures on the Internet.  

Maybe you'd like to design a uniform that will meet the requirements of, say, 50,000 people and see how many of them complain?


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## geo (21 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> I'm sure RSMs everywhere would allow us to wear it in the field.



Surely you jest?..... While I commend the innovative mind of all RSMs, allowing a multitude of different dress standards, no matter how warranted, isn't about to become the norm.


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## geo (21 Sep 2005)

Had an opportunity to check out the new USPat uniform that is based on CADPAT....
other than the fact that it's more gray than green or tan (looks like a lot of our washed out cadpat) I must admit that I am impressed!!!!

Like KevinB has pointed out - they have done away with most chest & body pockets in favor of new ones on the sleeves - where you can get at them while on Tac Ops... 

Lots of big velcro areas for you to attach all sorts of things - on both arms
Zipper up the front of the shirt....
Really reinforced elbows, knees & ass
Pockets on the lower arm & calf - easy to access - even when seated in cramped confines in the back of a LAV, Nyala, M113, GWagon or even an Iltis (2R22R are still running em for a little while yet)

The US army may have been a little late coming into the game but - not bad turnout IMHO


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## Matt_Fisher (21 Sep 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Amazing how you can judge the suitability of a piece of combat equipment by looking at two or three pictures on the Internet.
> 
> Maybe you'd like to design a uniform that will meet the requirements of, say, 50,000 people and see how many of them complain?



Actually, Infanteer happens to own a set of the Crye stuff, so I'll respect his judgment on whether he thinks its a valid design for field wear.


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## GNR (21 Sep 2005)

GEO, I definately meant it as a joke.


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## KevinB (21 Sep 2005)

I have run the Crye gear in two tactical rifle / pistol courses - and worn it for some of our Gun Club Shoots.
 The gear is phenominal   - I'm on over 8 washigns and zero fadings or running stiches -- I wish my CADPAT held up so well.

Secondly the padded waist on the pants makes wearign a sidearms a lot more comfortable - and the integral knee and elbow pads allow CQB/CQC to be conducted w/o a decrease in manuverability yet still provided impact protection.


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## Matt_Fisher (21 Sep 2005)

Kev,

I thought your waist was already padded?   ;D


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## Sig_Des (21 Sep 2005)

I like this uniforms idea, especially the integrated knee pads...I'm assuming they come with the clothing, or are they an additional accessory?


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## Infanteer (21 Sep 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Amazing how you can judge the suitability of a piece of combat equipment by looking at two or three pictures on the Internet.



Amazing how you can assume that my experience with said uniform is merely three pictures on the Internet.



> Maybe you'd like to design a uniform that will meet the requirements of, say, 50,000 people and see how many of them complain?



Go over to Lightfighter.net or militarymoron and look at the review for Crye's products.  Or better yet, just read what Kevin has to say - he's put them through the ringer.  As for uniform design, look at who Crye was designing the uniform for - half a million US soldiers.  The selection process still has me confused, and ACU was chosen and Crye decided not to dump the product but instead take it into the civilian market.  The MM review here is superb, and shows how well this small company in New York did.  Can you say the same for the CTS, which is still struggling to design a backpack almost a decade after the fact?

If you've had to wear body armour for any longish period of time, along with being bombed up, you can appreciate the innovations Crye has made.


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## Big Red (22 Sep 2005)

I have been wearing the khaki Crye clothing on motorcades and am impressed with them so far. The placement and shape of the pockets is much more functional than the CF combats, I can access them while wearing body armour.  What really sets them apart from normal clothing (besides the price ;D ) is the cut of them, they almost feel tailored.


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## trajectomologist (28 Oct 2005)

There is a lot of thought and detail within this thread...
The question is, how do we make them listen?
Is there a way to action this within DLR (Directorate of Land Requirements)?
I know some of you are here... soooo?


I will even volunteer to help design and trial this stuff.


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## BDTyre (1 Nov 2005)

I've not come across any major issues with the current design.  Lower shirt pockets are fine; I keep my lighter and a spare pen or my keys in there.  Upper shirt pockets are usually not an issue, and are reasonably accessable while wearing webbing (probably less so with a tac vest).

The pants though...I tend to do up the bottom draw strings on my shirt, so the hip and rear pockets usually end up unused and empty.  The cargo pockets are great for things like my wallet, beret, folded papers, etc.  But I did make the mistake while on a weekend course of throwing my fifth mag in the cargo pockets.  Oh, what a joy it was to run around with a (thankfully empty) metal container slapping against my leg.

The internal shirt pocket I've used once, and it was somewhat of a pain to get anything in or out.  I'd prefer shoulder pockets.


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## geo (1 Nov 2005)

refer to sleeve pocket on the goretex jackets....... NEED MORE... accessible when wearing webbing, tac vest, balistic vest... anything!

balance of pockets on shirt could go for all I care - don't smoke and don't use em very much xcept for my cell phone..... internal pocket - never used em, not accessible enough under most circumstances. If they insist on giving us some chest pockets, they should be like on the gortex jacket - accessible from the side sou you can rat at em once you've unzipped your vest.

Leg pockets?........... back pockets - never used em
side pockets.... good for money and matches
Cargo pockets - good to go
pockets on lower leg would be a great help


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## George Wallace (1 Nov 2005)

I can agree with having pockets added to the sleeves, but when it comes to removing extra pockets from their current positions, I disagree.  

In my unit, and many others, Unit (even Bde) SOP was that ID was kept in upper left pocket of shirt.  Remember, you will not always be wearing a TV or Webbing 24 and 7.  Cargo pockets on shirt and pants do come in handy.  My beret never leaves my body.  When not on head, it is safe in my right leg Cargo pocket.  Left leg cargo pocket was for FMP; Right was for Map.  Upper shirt pockets were for ID, pens, Stadlers, and an exacto knife.  Upper right was for other docs and a smaller FMP (MP type).  Cargo pockets on shirt were for scrounging.  Pants: upper left for keys, and upper right for money.  Rear pockets were kept empty - wallets in them caused pain after long periods of driving.  Pockets on arms would come in real hand for items that required access while wearing TV, other items like ID, docs, and money, that don't need access constantly, can stay in covered shirt pockets.

Mags in TV.


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## UberCree (1 Nov 2005)

One morning when I woke up, the boot sleeves from the bottom inside of a pair of my combat pants had crawled up to a top and turned themselves into upper arm pockets.  Buttons, drainage holes and everything.  Of course no one believed me, and I had to pay for em, but it was a small price to pay.


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## Matt_Fisher (1 Nov 2005)

UberCree said:
			
		

> One morning when I woke up, the boot sleeves from the bottom inside of a pair of my combat pants had crawled up to a top and turned themselves into upper arm pockets.   Buttons, drainage holes and everything.   Of course no one believed me, and I had to pay for em, but it was a small price to pay.



The label inside your combats didn't happen to say they were manufactured by Darwin Contracting?   ;D


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## Britney Spears (1 Nov 2005)

> My beret never leaves my body.



Uh, I'm pretty sure that's an BLACK hat specific SOP there. The rest of us don't generally bring BBQs or coolers or lawn chairs out there either  .... 

I think vehicle crews would apreciate air-force style lower leg pockets.


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## George Wallace (1 Nov 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> I think vehicle crews would apreciate air-force style lower leg pockets.


Absolutely.


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