# Usefulness of Modern Drill [Split from Paying Compliments]



## gcclarke (4 Jun 2019)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Another take on the origin of the salute from The Met's website under their Misconceptions and Questions Relating to Armor:If you consider the salute to be anachronistic, I suppose you'd consider the entire idea of what we do for drill to be as well. After all, the entire point of drill was to train and execute tactical maneuvers on the battlefield, not for pomp and circumstance.



Personally that's my take. I think we'd be better if if we took all the time spent doing drill and did... literally anything else.


----------



## Haggis (4 Jun 2019)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Personally that's my take. I think we'd be better if if we took all the time spent doing drill and did... literally anything else.


At the risk of taking this thread on a self-destructive tangent I will violently disagree.  Pomp and pageantry is but one end result of drill but not the reason for it.  Drill instills instant obedience to commands.  It instill instinctive reaction to specific stimulus.  This instant obedience and instinctive reaction can be translated into weapons handling, emergency procedures, and battle drills from the fire team to company level.  Drill is foundational training which saves time on technical training later on.  Drill also instills a sense of teamwork (sports teams drill as well), occasionally through shared hardship but more often through shared pride in a well executed series of movements.

I accept your take on it and will differ with you.  I see the value of drill every day.


----------



## SupersonicMax (4 Jun 2019)

I haven't done drill proper since 2006 and I somehow manage to handle complex emergencies of a complex weapon system fairly well. It also happens outside the military.  No need for drill to make instill the desire to obey commands.  Good leadership normally achieves that.


----------



## Jarnhamar (4 Jun 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I haven't done drill proper since 2006 and I somehow manage to handle complex emergencies of a complex weapon system fairly well.



Would you say you go through a series of drills when there is an emergency in that complex weapon system?


----------



## Sub_Guy (4 Jun 2019)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Would you say you go through a series of drills when there is an emergency in that complex weapon system?



Apples and oranges.  Marching around on the parade square and dealing with a weapons emergency on a CF-18 is vastly different.  

I don’t see first responders out marching around for hours on end and they seem to do just fine.


----------



## mariomike (4 Jun 2019)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> I don’t see first responders out marching around for hours on end and they seem to do just fine.



There was some at the academy. 

But, there is a Ceremonial unit, and they practice regularly.


----------



## FSTO (4 Jun 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I haven't done drill proper since 2006 and I somehow manage to handle complex emergencies of a complex weapon system fairly well. It also happens outside the military.  No need for drill to make instill the desire to obey commands.  Good leadership normally achieves that.



You're in the Air Force, you wouldn't know drill if it came up and upgraded your hotel room from the presidential suite to the omnipotent palace!  ;D


----------



## Haggis (5 Jun 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I haven't done drill proper since 2006 and I somehow manage to handle complex emergencies of a complex weapon system fairly well. It also happens outside the military.  No need for drill to make instill the desire to obey commands.  Good leadership normally achieves that.



But you did do drill during the formative stages of your military career.  It would be disingenuous to think that this didn't condition you in some way to react instinctively to commands/stimuli which set the conditions for future success dealing with emergencies in ancient aircraft.

Good leadership will instill the desire to instantly obey commands.  So will bad leadership, through the fear of the consequences of not doing so.  However, neither will prepare you with the instinctive reactions needed for an immediate action (e.g. firearms stoppage, parachute malfunction).  Drill does that by building the neural pathways required for the learning of emergency procedures requiring instinctive and immediate reaction.


----------



## Lumber (5 Jun 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> But you did do drill during the formative stages of your military career.  It would be disingenuous to think that this didn't condition you in some way to react instinctively to commands/stimuli which set the conditions for future success dealing with emergencies in ancient aircraft.



I still get a kick when I'm at some kind of large seminar/presentation with both civilian and military attendees. Everyone is sitting in their seats talking to each other, getting to know each other, then the guest speaker shows up who happens to be a general officer, someone yells "ROOM" and all the military members, no matter how long they've been in for, all stop talking instantly, twist their bodies forward, and look straight ahead. The look of confusion on civilian faces is highly entertaining.  :nod:


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Drill does that by building the neural pathways required for the learning of emergency procedures requiring instinctive and immediate reaction.



That actually goes back to grade school when we practiced fire drills.



			
				Lumber said:
			
		

> I still get a kick when I'm at some kind of large seminar/presentation with both civilian and military attendees. Everyone is sitting in their seats talking to each other, getting to know each other, then the guest speaker shows up who happens to be a general officer, someone yells "ROOM" and all the military members, no matter how long they've been in for, all stop talking instantly, twist their bodies forward, and look straight ahead. The look of confusion on civilian faces is highly entertaining.  :nod:



It's also plain old-fashioned good manners to STFU when a teacher or whatever wants your attention.


----------



## Haggis (5 Jun 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> That actually goes back to grade school when we practiced fire drills.



True fire drills are predictable (i.e. Fire Prevention Week) and in many cases people are locked and loaded and ready to go.  When that alarm goes off unexpectedly is when people really need to react with alacrity.


----------



## Throwaway987 (5 Jun 2019)

What’s the overlap between responding to employment specific drills and generic drill? Should we shut down our flight simulators and have our pilots horse around on the parade square instead?

I’d argue that it’s the practice and repetition of employment specific drills that provides for employment specific benefits. Practicing parade drill is, at best, an extremely inefficient way of honing useful emergency responses. The response to “room” reflects the repetition of this command in other conference room environments versus a generalized ability to respond to employment specific drills.


----------



## Furniture (5 Jun 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> But you did do drill during the formative stages of your military career.  It would be disingenuous to think that this didn't condition you in some way to react instinctively to commands/stimuli which set the conditions for future success dealing with emergencies in ancient aircraft.
> 
> Good leadership will instill the desire to instantly obey commands.  So will bad leadership, through the fear of the consequences of not doing so.  However, neither will prepare you with the instinctive reactions needed for an immediate action (e.g. firearms stoppage, parachute malfunction).  Drill does that by building the neural pathways required for the learning of emergency procedures requiring instinctive and immediate reaction.



That's a rather weak connection, what makes people react to stoppages, "bong bongs", etc. is training to conduct the drills themselves. I don't know how to conduct IAs because I can do a right turn on the march, I know how to do my IAs because I have been trained repeatedly throughout my career to do them. There are many civilian shooters know their IAs better than military most members, and have never been "marching up and down the square". 

In reality I think drill is still taught/emphasised for two reasons 1) It is the easiest way to show a unit's development as a team, and their discipline. (drill requires discipline, but isn't the only way to teach/enforce it) 2) It's very low cost training, and has always been done. This ties back into the first point, because the cost is so low to conduct drill it will pretty much always be the CAF's favoured way to teach/enforce discipline.


----------



## Haggis (5 Jun 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> That's a rather weak connection, what makes people react to stoppages, "bong bongs", etc. is training to conduct the drills themselves. I don't know how to conduct IAs because I can do a right turn on the march, I know how to do my IAs because I have been trained repeatedly throughout my career to do them. There are many civilian shooters know their IAs better than military most members, and have never been "marching up and down the square".



Agreed, to a point.  Parade square drill is operant conditioning of a specific type.  The principles of this conditioning are transferable to other procedures.  



			
				Furniture said:
			
		

> In reality I think drill is still taught/emphasised for two reasons 1) It is the easiest way to show a unit's development as a team, and their discipline. (drill requires discipline, but isn't the only way to teach/enforce it) 2) It's very low cost training, and has always been done. This ties back into the first point, because the cost is so low to conduct drill it will pretty much always be the CAF's favoured way to teach/enforce discipline.


  You are spot in in this assessment but there are other reasons for drill.  The public and our allies will judge us on our professionalism, in part, on how we perform ceremonial activities.  If a unit looks like a bag of hammers on Warrior's Day (for example), it will be expected to perform in a like fashion.  I point to the commentary on the Lorne Scots recent "marching contingent" in Toronto as a perfect example of public perceptions not matching operational reality.  Setting aside the reason why they did what they did, they may be an excellent unit but certainly didn't portray that well during the event.


----------



## Throwaway987 (5 Jun 2019)

How many CAF members actually need to be proficient in drill and is it worth the opportunity cost? Can we just have a ceremonial unit or even just have hired actors to fulfil this illusion of professionalism? 

I work in a non-combat arms trade and I can’t see the value of drill for knowledge workers. Even any improvement in conditioned responses pales in comparison to the value of individual cognitive ability, decision-making, and resourcefulness. If time and energy is required to become good at drill, this comes at the expense of productivity at our actual jobs.  Aircraft maintainers and other professional trades are struggling with manpower shortages and increasing backlogs of work.  Yes, we can order people to perform drill but should we? Who’s paying for the hundreds and thousands of dollars per hour of labour? What’s balance between CAF ceremonial duties and our primary occupations?

There’s a lot of talk about work-life balance and burnout these days but also a lot of wasted time. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> When that alarm goes off unexpectedly is when people really need to react with alacrity.



"Brisk and cheerful readiness."  

We were brisk and ready, when the alarm ( Bells. Later heart-saving, automated voice, ramp-up tones and flashing LED lights ) went off unexpectedly. 

Not always cheerful. You should have heard the swearing. 

Doors up. Wheels rolling in 60 - 90 seconds. Robotic. Wasn't much to think about. Didn't think about much during the drive either.  

Can't say if parade square drill helped me much as an MSE Op. Maybe it did. Perhaps just didn't realise it.

Having said that, I enjoyed drill as much as the next guy.


----------



## QV (5 Jun 2019)

I think drill has a place in basic training.  Having served in the RCR, I don't recall it was excess drill that took away from more important training.  To be sure there was a lot of wasted time, but I don't recall drill being the culprit.


----------



## Old Sweat (5 Jun 2019)

Strange as it may seem, when I was a young NCM and then a junior officer, the Canadian Army used a unit's standard of turn out and drill as an indication of its operational readiness.* I don't know how many times I heard senior officers state emphatically that they were opposed to operational evaluations and the like. This was, I am pretty sure, one of the traits we inherited from the Brits, and we probably kept it long after they had moved on.

In the early-to-mid sixties in 3 CIBG in Gagetown, the GOC Eastern Command took to inspecting units with their kit and equipment in tactical groupings on the parade square and later in the field. This still was a formal inspection and not an evaluation of operational readiness, but it was a step up from square bashing. Drill was still seen as a pretty good indication of efficiency and effectiveness.


* During the Second World War this was very machine in use. When the organization of the armoured division changed midway during the war, the retention of several armoured regiments on the order-of-battle was determined by formal parades and inspections.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Jun 2019)

Throwaway987 said:
			
		

> How many CAF members actually need to be proficient in drill and is it worth the opportunity cost? Can we just have a ceremonial unit or even just have hired actors to fulfil this illusion of professionalism?
> 
> I work in a non-combat arms trade and I can’t see the value of drill for knowledge workers. Even any improvement in conditioned responses pales in comparison to the value of individual cognitive ability, decision-making, and resourcefulness. If time and energy is required to become good at drill, this comes at the expense of productivity at our actual jobs.  are struggling with manpower shortages and increasing backlogs of work.  Yes, we can order people to perform drill but should we? Who’s paying for the hundreds and thousands of dollars per hour of labour? What’s balance between CAF ceremonial duties and our primary occupations?
> Aircraft maintainers and other professional trades
> There’s a lot of talk about work-life balance and burnout these days but also a lot of wasted time. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.



Question;  what do you consider "professional trades" exactly?  If someone isn't combat arms, they should not have to require basic foot/weapons drill knowledge and be able to parade?  Combat arms folks aren't "knowledge workers"?  

I find the people who say things, and belief things like that, are the ones who've never been combat arms and have no clue how hard the job actually is, and how intelligent some of the people doing that work really are.  I've seen an ATIS Tech who was 'technically smart' with a box or system, but wouldn't be nearly intelligent, capable and resilient enough to handle a hard military trade.   :2c:

Drill/parades is part of being in a uniform, full stop.  If you want to 'be on parade' but not march, remuster to aircrew and be on the flypast.   ;D

FWIW...I've done more 'parades' on CJOC deployments than I have on my Wing/Sqn over the last 5-6 years... rly:


----------



## Bzzliteyr (5 Jun 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Question;  what do you consider "professional trades" exactly?  If someone isn't combat arms, they should not have to require basic foot/weapons drill knowledge and be able to parade?  Combat arms folks aren't "knowledge workers"?
> 
> I find the people who say things, and belief things like that, are the ones who've never been combat arms and have no clue how hard the job actually is, and how intelligent some of the people doing that work really are.  I've seen an ATIS Tech who was 'technically smart' with a box or system, but wouldn't be nearly intelligent, capable and resilient enough to handle a hard military trade.   :2c:
> 
> ...



Soldiering in itself is a profession.


----------



## Throwaway987 (5 Jun 2019)

I used professional trades interchangeably with knowledge workers. Where their primary contribution is cognitive ability and problem solving as opposed to physical labour. HR, finance, log, healthcare, maintainers, cyber, pilots, planners, etc.

The previous posters suggested that drill allows members to respond instinctively to commands. Every trade and rank requires varying amount of physical versus mental labour (or both). I’m arguing that drill does not provide comparable value to trades that do not value generic instinctive responses in their work. Yes, a hard army member has a challenging profession that requires extreme mental resiliency. But this doesn’t change the fact that the comptroller isn’t benefiting much from drill. 

We can do as many change of command parades as we want but it’s not going to get the helicopter fixed any faster. It takes time for members to practice and maintain their drill (e.g. two days of parade practice before a ceremony). What are our priorities in a world of limited time and labour? Are we getting good value out of drill and parades?


----------



## mariomike (5 Jun 2019)

Haggis said:
			
		

> True fire drills are predictable (i.e. Fire Prevention Week) and in many cases people are locked and loaded and ready to go.



I feel rather nostalgic for the old predictable childhood school drills, compared to the drills of today,



> A school in Indiana has been criticised for apparently shooting teachers "execution style" with pellets as part of an "active-shooter drill". The case has reignited conversations about the usefulness of drills and the methods used to prepare schools for shootings.
> 
> Active-shooter drills were first introduced into US schools after the Columbine High School massacre in 1999, and have been a common part of school life for a generation of Americans.
> 
> ...



Not sure if parade square drill would sharpen peoples reactions in real-life ASHE situations?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Jun 2019)

Throwaway987 said:
			
		

> I used professional trades interchangeably with knowledge workers. Where their primary contribution is cognitive ability and problem solving as opposed to physical labour. HR, finance, log, healthcare, maintainers, cyber, pilots, planners, etc.



You're using civilian terms and 'thinking' in a military context...they don't generally mix well; 'planners' in the military can be as high up as the GOFO level, or a Cpl on PLQ doing Small Party Taskings.

I don't know what trade you are, or how long you've been in, but if you think the folks in combat arms trades don't have to have cognitive ability and problem solving, or they aren't required to 'think for a living' (an aspect of the definition of knowledge worker), you're fairly misinformed.  They just also have the physical labour part to do, sometimes at the very same time they are doing the problem solving/knowledge worker piece.




> The previous posters suggested that drill allows members to respond instinctively to commands. Every trade and rank requires varying amount of physical versus mental labour (or both). I’m arguing that drill does not provide comparable value to trades that do not value generic instinctive responses in their work. Yes, a hard army member has a challenging profession that requires extreme mental resiliency. But this doesn’t change the fact that the comptroller isn’t benefiting much from drill.



They are doing what they are paid to do some of the time;  it doesn't have to relate to 'benefitting the member'.  It is benefitting the military, whether they agree or not.  Does doing the FORCE test 'benefit' a comptroller?

This idea, or attitude of "what good is it to ME" is part of the military of today;  surprise...it isn't all about the member.  I can only speak for myself but I've always taken a certain amount of pride in parades;  we parade with (in a former life) our Guidon and now, my Sqn Colours.  There's a certain sense of belonging to something bigger than yourself IMO.



> We can do as many change of command parades as we want but it’s not going to get the helicopter fixed any faster. It takes time for members to practice and maintain their drill (e.g. two days of parade practice before a ceremony). What are our priorities in a world of limited time and labour? Are we getting good value out of drill and parades?



I'm sure the Canadian Veterans watching the D Day ceremonies today, their families, etc are getting "good value" out of the parade stuff going on.  

People are saying get rid of drill, we have X to fix/do/etc.  No one is saying we should get rid of all the townhalls, PD days, ridiculous amount of 'mandatory' online trg that serves no actual purpose, etc.  I'd get rid of half of that nausea before drill...

I can only speak for myself;  I'm at an operational Sqn.  We parade, usually, on the VPI Memorial parade, Battle of Britain, Nov 11th, and Change of Command parades.  Not every single member does every single parade.  The last CofC parade I did, it was in 3Bs and we practiced for 1-2 hours for it.  

I don't see the harm there - flight operations weren't hindered just because it was 'down tools' and an empty FLYPRO for a day and a half.   :2c:


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Jun 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The last CofC parade I did, it was in 3Bs and we practiced for 1-2 hours for it.
> 
> I don't see the harm there - flight operations weren't hindered just because it was 'down tools' and an empty FLYPRO for a day and a half.   :2c:



And that's exactly how much drill you should be doing in a unit. However, when a CoC parade takes on the aspects of Verdi's Aida, then you've got a bigger problem .... and it's usually because the leaders' egoes are bigger than the elephants.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Jun 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> However, when a CoC parade takes on the aspects of Verdi's Aida, then you've got a bigger problem ....



That was the CTC Officers grad parade around August each year back when I hung my hat in Gagetown.   ;D


----------



## Furniture (6 Jun 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You're using civilian terms and 'thinking' in a military context...they don't generally mix well; 'planners' in the military can be as high up as the GOFO level, or a Cpl on PLQ doing Small Party Taskings.
> 
> I don't know what trade you are, or how long you've been in, but if you think the folks in combat arms trades don't have to have cognitive ability and problem solving, or they aren't required to 'think for a living' (an aspect of the definition of knowledge worker), you're fairly misinformed.  They just also have the physical labour part to do, sometimes at the very same time they are doing the problem solving/knowledge worker piece.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone is saying we need to get rid of drill all together. A point was brought up that drill trains people to "react" when doing their jobs. The counter argument was made that more actual value is gained by training people to do the actual job rather than doing more drill. 

The entire discussion is about the "value added" in doing our jobs that comes from drill, which most seem to agree is minimal to non-existent. That's not an argument to drop drill altogether, just a point to dissuade some enterprising leader from "leading change" by bringing back regular parades as a "training" tool.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (6 Jun 2019)

I was never a big parade square basher, but now am working with the Navy League Cadets. I have to admit the majority are faster learner than us adults! I tell them that the drill they are doing can be traced all the way to the Roman Legions and Greek Phalanxes, that at that time peoples lives depended on good drill and that by trying to learn drill you honour all those before you. Some get it and find that interesting. I also tell them that looking good on the parade square will impress their parents and they look sharp. That helps as well.

For Regular Force and Reserves, I would put drill as a necessary function. Every military unit is likely at some point to be asked to conduct drill and likely in front of non-military people. If you look like a Cluster F*** or a gaggle of geese, people will judge you as that. I would say that there is a certain expectation that military members can march in step and conduct basic drill movements. How much a unit practices should be tuned to the likelihood of having to do a parade or ceremony. I would say minimum once a month basic drill practice for non-soldiers, that drill practice can count as physical exercise. A 20 minute session, focusing on forming up, right dress, open order march, turns and wheels will keep people tuned up. If a big parade is coming, then you can add bits like Advance in Review Order, etc. Beside the physical exercise, everyone getting together and using it as a chance to get your young NCO/officers to command a group of people is good stuff. Working it into a another unit function like a quick update on what's happening, promotions which is what most combat units do in the mornings/ beginning of parade night.


----------



## Furniture (6 Jun 2019)

Colin P said:
			
		

> I was never a big parade square basher, but now am working with the Navy League Cadets. I have to admit the majority are faster learner than us adults! I tell them that the drill they are doing can be traced all the way to the Roman Legions and Greek Phalanxes, that at that time peoples lives depended on good drill and that by trying to learn drill you honour all those before you. Some get it and find that interesting. I also tell them that looking good on the parade square will impress their parents and they look sharp. That helps as well.
> 
> For Regular Force and Reserves, I would put drill as a necessary function. Every military unit is likely at some point to be asked to conduct drill and likely in front of non-military people. If you look like a Cluster F*** or a gaggle of geese, people will judge you as that. I would say that there is a certain expectation that military members can march in step and conduct basic drill movements. How much a unit practices should be tuned to the likelihood of having to do a parade or ceremony. I would say minimum once a month basic drill practice for non-soldiers, that drill practice can count as physical exercise. A 20 minute session, focusing on forming up, right dress, open order march, turns and wheels will keep people tuned up. If a big parade is coming, then you can add bits like Advance in Review Order, etc. Beside the physical exercise, everyone getting together and using it as a chance to get your young NCO/officers to command a group of people is good stuff. Working it into a another unit function like a quick update on what's happening, promotions which is what most combat units do in the mornings/ beginning of parade night.



Unfortunately some units, such as the one I belong to are comprised of shift workers, or people that work in separate locations. The logistics required to get everyone in the same place to march around for 20 min aren't worth it. For some units it might make sense, but it doesn't for many.


----------



## Cloud Cover (7 Jun 2019)

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> Soldiering in itself is a profession.


This. Army. Navy. Air Force. Green, blue, other blue and purple. Whatever your env., the whole scheme is about this profession. And this profession is built upon the adrenaline and endorphins that originate and terminate with the logical order that flows from drill, and not necessarily parade square bashing but definitely the conditioning that drill installs. Carry on.


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Jun 2019)

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> And this profession is built upon the adrenaline and endorphins that originate and terminate with the logical order that flows from drill,



😂

As a side note, there are times for soldiering tasks however parade drill have little to no application to most trades and is, frankly, a waste of precious, expensive ressources for most trades that don’t really have dead time on a daily/weekly basis.

Someone should come up with the hourly rate of conducting drill for a unit.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> frankly, a waste of precious, expensive ressources for most trades that don’t really have dead time on a daily/weekly basis.



Wasn't much spare time in a PRes transportation company.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2019)

Drill, uniforms, grooming standards, unique rules etc etc.   they all take effort, they all take time away from your job.  Except all of that is part of your job when you are in the military. 

Drop all of those useless things and you are basically a public servant.


----------



## observor 69 (7 Jun 2019)

Go to any major RCAF flying base and watch a change of command parade.  :rofl:
Yet the airplanes still fly. The pride is in my work.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Drop all of those useless things and you are basically a public servant.



I was a civil servant. You kept your uniforms in your locker. The City paid for the dry cleaning. You showered and shaved at home, or at the station. 

All of this was prior to reporting for duty. 

I followed their unique rules ( well, almost always ).  

There was drill instruction at the academy. 

If you really loved drill, you could try out for the Ceremonial Unit. They were very dedicated, practiced frequently ( when off-duty ) and were paid for their time.


----------



## dimsum (7 Jun 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Go to any major RCAF flying base and watch a change of command parade.  :rofl:
> Yet the airplanes still fly. The pride is in my work.



Yeah, that's half the reason I think sit-down parades are probably best.  

As for Mariomike's comment, I wish the CAF paid for dry cleaning for DEUs and Mess Kit  :nod:


----------



## Eye In The Sky (7 Jun 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> Drill, uniforms, grooming standards, unique rules etc etc.   they all take effort, they all take time away from your job.  Except all of that is part of your job when you are in the military.
> 
> Drop all of those useless things and you are basically a public servant.



This.  Lots of people in the military are trying to play "civilian" these days.  I wish they'd get out and make room for those people who want to actually be in the military, and accept things like the odd parade and a little bit of drill, ironing and boot polishing that goes with it.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (7 Jun 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> 😂
> 
> As a side note, there are times for soldiering tasks however parade drill have little to no application to most trades and is, frankly, a waste of precious, expensive ressources for most trades that don’t really have dead time on a daily/weekly basis.
> 
> Someone should come up with the hourly rate of conducting drill for a unit.



It would not be hard, but to be honest most of the time wasted i found working with the Reg Force was waiting around for someone to figure out what was supposed to be happening that day.


----------



## kratz (7 Jun 2019)

[quote author=SupersonicMax]
😂

As a side note, there are times for soldiering tasks however parade drill have little to no application to most trades and is, frankly, a waste of precious, expensive ressources for most trades that don’t really have dead time on a daily/weekly basis.

Someone should come up with the hourly rate of conducting drill for a unit.
[/quote]

From my experience, most NavRes units are on top tracking their budget throughout the year and can easily tell you how much per night / 3 hours to offer up an accurate hourly rate. The variables with rank mix, IPC levels, Spec pay and PILL all affect a precise rate. 

Using the CBIs and averaging the numbers, a reasonable estimate  is possible for an 80 person unit.

**edit: to fix formatting


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Jun 2019)

Sometimes military members need to put their cell phones down, check themselves in a mirror, stand up straight then get screamed at for 40 minutes while they march in circles to remind themselves they're in the military and not civilians.


----------



## Navy_Pete (7 Jun 2019)

To be  completely honest, as a guy looking at a future of desk jobs (unless I can finagle some kind of UN posting or purple trade deployment) I actually like doing drill (on occasion), going to the range, etc.  Specifically because it reminds me that I am in fact, still in the military, and not a civvie.  If I want to be a civvie, I'll transfer over, and suffer through the higher pay, benefits, goatees and plaid shirts.


----------



## Michael OLeary (7 Jun 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> As a side note, there are times for soldiering tasks however parade drill have little to no application to most trades and is, frankly, a waste of precious, expensive resources for most trades that don’t really have dead time on a daily/weekly basis.



We shall await your command tour when you specifically instruct your Sergeant Major not to select ex-Cbt Arms pers for the guards when RCAF generals visit.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Jun 2019)

The RCAF would never have mounted the guard at Buckingham Palace if it were not for their exemplary drill.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2019)

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Specifically because it reminds me that I am in fact, still in the military, and not a civvie.  If I want to be a civvie, I'll transfer over, and suffer through the higher pay, benefits, goatees and plaid shirts.



As a civil servant, I wouldn't have minded if they took us out of service now and then to refresh our drill. 

Let someone else respond to the tones for an hour or so.


----------



## Jarnhamar (7 Jun 2019)

mariomike said:
			
		

> I wouldn't have minded to be taken out of service now and then for a little drill.



heh heh heh


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Jun 2019)

kratz said:
			
		

> From my experience, most NavRes units are on top tracking their budget throughout the year and can easily tell you how much per night / 3 hours to offer up an accurate hourly rate. The variables with rank mix, IPC levels, Spec pay and PILL all affect a precise rate.
> 
> Using the CBIs and averaging the numbers, a reasonable estimate  is possible for an 80 person unit.
> 
> **edit: to fix formatting



The hourly rate for a reg force LCdr (incentive level 5) is more around $65/hr when you take the monthly salary and divide by the average working days per month.  $3K is still a whole lot of money for something that has very little practical return.


----------



## Remius (7 Jun 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Go to any major RCAF flying base and watch a change of command parade.  :rofl:
> Yet the airplanes still fly. The pride is in my work.



No doubt.  Just like I have not doubt some question the need for annual qual shoots with the C7.  

Where I work civilians ensure our planes still fly. And they do.   

Maybe it isn't about removing drills from the military but rather we should be removing some trades from the military.


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Jun 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The hourly rate for a reg force LCdr (incentive level 5) is more around $65/hr when you take the monthly salary and divide by the average working days per month.  $3K is still a whole lot of money for something that has very little practical return.



Everything the Infantry does is a drill, for a reason: victory in battle. Attacking machine guns (amongst other things) causes casualties, but we must go forward regardless. Good drills build instinctive reactions in the midst of chaos so we are good at fighting together under any stressful circumstance. Fight alone, die alone. Fight together, win together. We learn the basics of that on the parade square, whether we like it or not, and it is an important building block of corporate self-confidence, leadership and performance excellence e.g., :

“In his search to be a great leader, the young centurion sought out the Republic’s veteran warrior. Looking up from his labor, the sage spoke:  “I know not what beats beneath your tunic, but what I saw in a leader from foot soldiers to proconsul is thus:

One who makes drill bloodless combat and combat bloody drill…
One who disciplines the offense and not the offenders…
One whose heart is with the Legion and whose loyalty is to the Republic…
One who seeks the companionship of the long march and not the privilege of position…
One whose commission is assigned from above and confirmed from below…
One who knows the self and, therefore, is true to all…
One who seeks to serve and not to be served…

This is the one who leads best of all.”

 – LTC Jeffrey Spara in Military Leadership: In Pursuit of Excellence


----------



## cld617 (7 Jun 2019)

Baden Guy said:
			
		

> Go to any major RCAF flying base and watch a change of command parade.  :rofl:
> Yet the airplanes still fly. The pride is in my work.



A parade which occurs at most every 2 or 3 years. We're lying to ourselves if we think that 1.5hrs of drill preceded by 2 or 3 days of practice is somehow a display of our professionalism and steadfast dedication to military excellence. How many obese mbrs are waddling around the other 1000+ days between parades? How about all the people who constantly go to and from their place of work with unpolished boots and hair that should've been cut 2 weeks ago? If the argument is going to be made that drill is necessary for development and maintaining discipline, you sure as hell better have the other 99.9% of a mbrs career dialed in before focusing on the remainder.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jun 2019)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Everything the Infantry does is a drill, for a reason: victory in battle. Attacking machine guns (amongst other things) causes casualties, but we must go forward regardless.



I wasn't in the infantry.  But, I saw they used tactics.

From what I have read,  the last widespread use of formed infantry in the attack, particularly in columns, was in the first few weeks of the First World War.


----------



## SupersonicMax (7 Jun 2019)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> We shall await your command tour when you specifically instruct your Sergeant Major not to select ex-Cbt Arms pers for the guards when RCAF generals visit.



Been OPI for a couple of those.  Never seen a guard for those.


----------



## observor 69 (8 Jun 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> No doubt.  Just like I have not doubt some question the need for annual qual shoots with the C7.
> 
> Where I work civilians ensure our planes still fly. And they do.
> 
> Maybe it isn't about removing drills from the military but rather we should be removing some trades from the military.



I spent two tours in CFB Baden. Training how to deal with a Soviet attack probably wouldn't be very attractive to a civy tech. And I still took pride in my work.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (8 Jun 2019)

Remius said:
			
		

> No doubt.  Just like I have not doubt some question the need for annual qual shoots with the C7.
> 
> Where I work civilians ensure our planes still fly. And they do.
> 
> Maybe it isn't about removing drills from the military but rather we should be removing some trades from the military.



There are civilian techs working on some RCAF fleets;  IMP.  We still need deployable military maintainers to deploy with us and keep things workin' at the Wing.


----------



## a_majoor (9 Jun 2019)

Reading this thread is interesting. I actually recall an article in the old Infantry Journal (?) by Douglas Bland questioning the use of parade square drill back in the early 1980's, so this is hardly a new argument.

Separating the idea of using drill as training vs training drills is probably an important part of the argument. There is no doubt that drills are vitally important to carrying out tasks under stress, and there is no real substitute for repetitive practice of drills until it becomes ingrained as muscle memory.

However looking at the origins of modern drill suggests that there is still some value added there. Modern drill and parades originated in the reign of Queen Anne, when Royal "Muster masters" inspected the troops that a Colonel had raised to determine if and how much the Crown was going to pay. Troops were lined up in battle formations, which allowed the Muster master to do a head count, then the troops performed various evolutions of arms to demonstrate they were, in fact, trained troops and not just a bunch of people the Colonel rounded up off the street the other day.

Being and moving in formations allows you to see the entire "team" all together, something which you often don't have the chance to do in the day to day workplace, and everyone being able to move together as a unit instills a sense that you are part of a real team which functions together as a unit, something which most civilian work places can never replicate.

Yes, we can go overboard in parade ground drill, but then again you can get caught up in excessive time spent on other aspects of the job which you, personally, don't find interesting or compelling. I would suggest that cohesion and being part of a team is still vitally important for military forces to function in dangerous and trying conditions, and there is nothing wrong with some parade ground time as part of building that cohesiveness.


----------



## gcclarke (11 Jun 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Drill/parades is part of being in a uniform, full stop.  If you want to 'be on parade' but not march, remuster to aircrew and be on the flypast.   ;D



Yes, we know it's part of being in a uniform. What we're debating here is whether or not it should ne part of being in a uniform. The fact that we're doing something does not mean that doing that thing is beneficial. The military as a whole is absolutely terrible about continuing to do the same things that were always done in the past, with little justification other than the fact that that's how it's been done. 

Drill had a purpose. It was actually used in combat; moving people around in formation on the battlefield. But it's not the 1700s anymore, and we don't need to be doing it. 

And I really don't find any of the arguments that it helps for training in weapons handling, etc easier convincing. Simply do more training on those things instead. Any benefits to actual job requirements (you know, defending the nation and her interests abroad, not dog and pony shows) are tangential at best. 

I don't think it benefits the military to be spending time doing this; it's likely harmful due to the opportunity cost of taking members away from something that could contribute more directly to success in our mission. 




			
				Remius said:
			
		

> Drill, uniforms, grooming standards, unique rules etc etc.   they all take effort, they all take time away from your job.  Except all of that is part of your job when you are in the military.
> 
> Drop all of those useless things and you are basically a public servant.



Frankly, I think this is exactly the mentality that we need to be fighting. Drill, uniforms, grooming standards, etc. That isn't what makes us military. 

_The fact that it's our job to bring violence to the enemy is what makes us military._ All that other stuff is just a distraction from that. Pomp and circumstance and having really short hair doesn't help win wars.


----------



## dapaterson (11 Jun 2019)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I don't think it benefits the military to be spending time doing this; it's likely harmful due to *the opportunity cost of taking members away from something that could contribute more directly to success in our mission.*



Exactly.



Those rocks aren't going to paint themselves...


----------



## OldSolduer (11 Jun 2019)

So what’s the solution? Not do drill at all?


----------



## FSTO (11 Jun 2019)

If you don't want to do drill like change of commands or opening of legislatures or welcoming a visit from the Queen you can always join an outfit like Blackwater or Global Solutions.


----------



## Furniture (11 Jun 2019)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> So what’s the solution? Not do drill at all?



I'd say much of the CAF has already reached a near ideal state. We all know how to do basic drill, and can be brought up to speed for major public events when required. 

I think questioning of usefulnes of drill comes in when some people(generally ex combat arms) declare that to fix the woes (real and imagined) of the CAF we need more marching up and down the square. 

Poorly disciplined troops with low morale won't magically become better because we force them to march around more, but maybe we will drive out good people that want to do work related to their trade. People forgetting they are military, and not civies in funny clothes has more to do with a lack of practical military training(shooting, gas hut, etc.), and lack of enforcement of proper deportment than it does with a lack of marching up and down the square.


----------



## gcclarke (11 Jun 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> If you don't want to do drill like change of commands or opening of legislatures or welcoming a visit from the Queen you can always join an outfit like Blackwater or Global Solutions.



"If you don't like it quit" is exactly the type of attitude which leads to absolutely no improvements ever being made in an organization. Overall, I like my job, but there's aspects of I feel are anachronistic. 

I mean, you do know that "leading change" and "initiative" are on the PER, right? We're supposed to be making the organization better as time goes on. Eliminating things which were put in because they served a purpose at one point but are now more harmful than beneficial is one of the things we're supposed to be doing.


----------



## Furniture (11 Jun 2019)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> "If you don't like it quit" is exactly the type of attitude which leads to absolutely no improvements ever being made in an organization. Overall, I like my job, but there's aspects of I feel are anachronistic.



That approach seema to be working well for the RCAF...  :nod:


----------



## kratz (11 Jun 2019)

[quote author=gcclarke]I mean, you do know that "leading change" and "initiative" are on the PER, right? We're supposed to be making the organization better as time goes on. Eliminating things which were put in because they served a purpose at one point but are now more harmful than beneficial is one of the things we're supposed to be doing.
[/quote]

You'll need to use a new argument once the new PaCE comes into effect next week. 
PaCE: Performance and Competency Evaluation, replacing the old PER system.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (11 Jun 2019)

Wait till the people leave the Forces and discover that every industry has it's quirky bits like safety meetings every day, or pep talks by the manager you all despise or expected unpaid participation in social events to make your boss look good, etc, etc. A wee bit of drill won't kill anyone and lot's of ways around dispersed work places. Like I said, the Taxpayers who pay your wages have an expectation that you look somewhat like a military unit, basic drill meets that expectation. I have met few jobs that require full on attention that people can't fit in a occasional task that is scheduled in advance. Throw in some timbits and coffee bought by the boss and have some fun with it. Hell even throw in a challenge that your crew can't do X drill movement and see if they respond.


----------



## FSTO (11 Jun 2019)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> "If you don't like it quit" is exactly the type of attitude which leads to absolutely no improvements ever being made in an organization. Overall, I like my job, but there's aspects of I feel are anachronistic.
> 
> I mean, you do know that* "leading change"* and "initiative" are on the PER, right? We're supposed to be making the organization better as time goes on. Eliminating things which were put in because they served a purpose at one point but are now more harmful than beneficial is one of the things we're supposed to be doing.



It is my belief that the "Leading Change" button on our PERs have caused more harm to the CAF than any time spent getting an Honour Guard together and practice prior to a special event.


----------



## dapaterson (11 Jun 2019)

FSTO said:
			
		

> It is my belief that the "Leading Change" button on our PERs have caused more harm to the CAF than any time spent getting an Honour Guard together and practice prior to a special event.



My eternal comment: It's "Leading Change" when it should be "Leading _Effective_ Change".


----------



## Navy_Pete (11 Jun 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My eternal comment: It's "Leading Change" when it should be "Leading _Effective_ Change".



But what about when you have to implement an ineffective change that flows down from the Big Giant Head Collective (TM)?  That usually takes real leadership.

As a guy that kept getting tagged with PERMON, that one always bugged me.  It's not about creating a change, it's about managing the implementation of something in flux so that it's not a cluster.  Doesn't really take much to apply that to any of the million things in our normal day to day work as we go about doing our jobs, and pretty easy to see why looking at something, understanding the impact it will have, and working with other people to get it sorted out is an important skill set you want senior people to have.

Think people that push new ideas to get the mastered on 'leading change' should also lose points on their 'reading' score, as well as the attention to detail related scores!  ;D ;D

Really looking forward to see the new system, hopefully it's actual meaningful change instead of window dressing. Not a big fan of the lack of a writeup for current PERs that aren't immediate; that's really not helpful for the member. Even if you do regular feedback, putting something in writing is a helpful exercise for everyone, and useful to read over afterwards. With the effort that saved on the PER, would have been really easy to give someone a PDR as well.  Bit of work, but think the informal feedback is a lot more useful than what is actually put into a PER.

But seriously, did drill in basic, did a bit more on phase 2, then there is some minor practice before some kind of parade or whatever.  Aside from being able to throw a high five, don't need any more than that on the day to day, so it's a pretty front loaded training at a time when you are at your cheapest, and they need to keep you busy anyway.

Like going to the range once in a while, I see drill as a reminder that, even when I'm basically a cubicle jockey doing civil servant work, I've signed my name to be part of something much bigger than just pushing paper. I find that helpful when I'm staring down the barrel of yet another pointless working group/oversight review/bureaucratic meeting flavour of the day to keep a project rolling. I also think (like general dress an deportment) it's a pretty easy, low hanging fruit to get right and not look like a soup sandwhich. Rather than fight a losing and pointless battle, figure I may as well make the (really minimal) effort required to do it properly.

There are many hills to die on, this one's not mine. People expect the military to do drill, it's not going away, so why get frustrated about it? my  :2c:


----------



## Haggis (11 Jun 2019)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My eternal comment: It's "Leading Change" when it should be "Leading _Effective_ Change".



Change is effective if it results in higher meriting for you regardless of the effect on others.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (11 Jun 2019)

Furniture said:
			
		

> I'd say much of the CAF has already reached a near ideal state. We all know how to do basic drill, and can be brought up to speed for major public events when required.
> 
> I think questioning of usefulnes of drill comes in when some people(generally ex combat arms) declare that to fix the woes (real and imagined) of the CAF we need more marching up and down the square.
> 
> Poorly disciplined troops with low morale won't magically become better because we force them to march around more, but maybe we will drive out good people that want to do work related to their trade. People forgetting they are military, and not civies in funny clothes has more to do with a lack of practical military training(shooting, gas hut, etc.), and lack of enforcement of proper deportment than it does with a lack of marching up and down the square.



Agreed.  There is no place for drill as a 'morale improver'.  There is a place in 'must be able to perform basic drill' and not embarrass self/unit on parades.

That's about it though.  If there are units out there doing drill for the sake of 'doing drill'...I'm glad I'm not part of them.


----------

