# Canadian Forces in Normandy



## MAJOR_Baker (11 Sep 2003)

I am working on a paper involving attrocities and the breaking of the geneva conventions by all belligerents in WWII.  I found some material on the INTERNET that talked about a video done by a gentleman in Canada, the name I can‘t find at the moment.  The video was "Take No Prisoners:
The Nazi SS in Normandy."  The idea behind the documentary is that about 139 Canadian soldiers were executed in and around Caen by the 12th SS Hitler Jugend Division.  I had heard about the shootings and had read a previous story about "Panzer Meier" being brought to Canada to face trial, I am not sure if he was convicted or not, he did finally end up in Germany.(I think he should have went to GITMO!    )  Anyway, I was wondering what everyone thought of the take no prisoners orders by Canadian units after they learned of the shootings?  Does and did Canada have some type of rules of land warfare?  I know that the US Army reserves the right to retaliate for such attrocities, however a Commander on the ground is not the one that determines the response, that is left up to the Commander in Chief.  There is some thought that says the CDN troops committed brutal acts first and that is why the Germans reacted...I am a little sceptical of that claim, although I do think that there were many instances of war crimes on all sides that were never reported.


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## Bill Smy (11 Sep 2003)

I think you‘re referring to Kurt Meyer; Here is what appears on the DND website

www.dnd.ca/site/fourth_dimension/2002/dec02/dec10_fd_e.htm 
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Fourth Dimension
By Charmion Chaplin-Thomas 
December 10, 1945


Aurich, Germany; December 10, 1945: SS BrigadefÃ¼hrer Kurt Meyer in court, flanked by Maj Arthur Russell (left) and Capt Elton D. McPhail.
National Archives of Canada

In the little north German town of Aurich, the war crimes case of Canada vs Kurt Meyer is starting at 10:30 a.m.. SS BrigadefÃ¼hrer Kurt Meyer, once the commanding officer of the 12th SS Panzer Division (Hitler Jugend), faces a General Court Martial convened by Major-General Chris Vokes, the general officer commanding the Canadian occupation forces in Germany. The five members of the Court are all senior officers of the Canadian Army who have led troops in combat. The prosecutor is Lieutenant-Colonel Bruce Macdonald of the Essex Scottish Regiment, assisted by LCol Clarence Campbell; the defence is being handled by LCol Maurice W. Andrew of the Perth Regiment, assisted by Captain Frank Plourde.

Meyer stands accused of inciting his troops to "deny quarter"-that is, kill prisoners-and is being held personally accountable for the murder of 27 Canadian prisoners of war by troops under his command. In fact, during the fierce fighting that followed the D Day landings in Normandy, Meyer‘s troops murdered at least 156 captured soldiers of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, but today, only the deaths of 27 members of the North Nova Scotia Highlanders, the Fusiliers de Sherbrooke, the Royal Winnipeg Rifles and the Queen‘s Own Rifles of Canada are under discussion, for only they can be directly connected to Meyer by witnesses.

The witnesses for the prosecution include Jan Jesionek, a Polish conscript who heard Meyer instruct his officers not to take prisoners, and Daniel Lachèvre, a 15-year-old boy who lived at the Abbaye d‘Ardenne, the site of two massacres in which 18 prisoners died. Daniel‘s testimony indicates that Meyer lied about the events at the Abbaye, and cast the blame for the prisoners‘ deaths on a subordinate.

On December 28, Kurt Meyer is convicted and sentenced to death, but MGen Vokes commutes the sentence to life imprisonment. After six years in Dorchester Penitentiary in New Brunswick, Meyer is transferred to a prison in Werl, West Germany, from which he is paroled in 1956.
=================

Here are the charges (Source: Law-Reports of Trials of War Criminals, The United Nations War Crimes Commission, Volume IV, London, HMSO, 1948) All this is found at

 http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/WCC/meyer.htm 


This is a University of Western England site, and deals with War Crimes.
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CASE NO. 22

THE ABBAYE ARDENNE CASE
TRIAL OF S.S. BRIGADEFUHRER KURT MEYER

CANADIAN MILITARY COURT, AURICH, GERMANY
10TH---28TH, DECEMBER, 1945

Incitement by Regimental Commander to his men to deny quarter to opposing troops. Extent of his responsibility for shooting of prisoners of war by men under his command.

p.97

Kurt Meyer was accused of having, as Commander of the 25th S.S. Panzer Grenadier Regiment of the 12th S.S. Panzer Division, incited and counselled his men to deny quarter to allied troops ; ordered (or alternatively been responsible for) the shooting of prisoners of war at his headquarters ; and been responsible for other such shootings both at his headquarters and during the fighting nearby. He pleaded not guilty. In connection with the last set of charges and with the alternative charge, the Prosecution referred to the presumptions contained in Regulations 10 (3), (4) and (5) of the War Crimes Regulations (Canada). The accused was found guilty of the incitement and counselling, and was held responsible for the shootings at his headquarters, though not guilty of ordering them, and was found not to be responsible for the shootings outside his headquarters. A charge contained in a second Charge Sheet was abandoned. The sentence of death passed against him was commuted by the Convening Authority to one of life imprisonment.

Outline of the Proceedings

The Court
The Charge

First Charge Sheet
Second Charge Sheet

The Opening of the Case for the Prosecution
The Evidence for the Prosecution
The Evidence for the Defence
The Evidence for the Rebuttal
The Case for the Defence
The Prosecutor‘s Closing Address
Summing up of the Judge Advocate
The Verdict
The Sentence

Notes on the Case

The Jurisdiction of the Court
Questions of Substantive Law

The Offence Alleged
The Application of Paragraphs (3), (4) and (5) of No.10 of the War Crimes Regulations (Canada) 

A. OUTLINE OF THE PROCEEDINGS

1. THE COURT

The Court was convened by the General Officer Commanding the Canadian Occupation Force, 3rd Canadian Infantry Division, Major-General C. Vokes, C.B., C.B.E., D.S.O., pursuant to the War Crimes Regulations (Canada).

It consisted of Major-General H. W. Foster, C.B.E., D.S.O., G.O.C. 4 Cdn. Armd. Div., as President, and, as members, Brig. I. S. Johnston, D.S.O., E.D., T./G.O.C., 5 Cdn. Armd. Div. ; Brig. H. A. Sparling, D.S.O., C.R.A., 3 Cdn. Inf. Div. C.A.O.F. ; Brig. H. P. Bell-Irving, D.S.O., O.B.E.,

p.98 

Comd. 10 Cdn. Inf. Bde., and Brig. J. A. Roberts, D.S.O., Comd. 8 Cdn. Inf. Bde. Lt.-Col. W. B. Bredin, D.J.A.G. 3 Increment " B " (C.A.O.F.), Canadian J.A.G. Overseas, was Judge Advocate. The Prosecutor was Lt.-Col. B. J. S. Macdonald, O.B.E., E.D., O.C. 1 Cdn. War Crimes Investigation Unit, and the Defending Officer was Lt.Col. M. W. Andrew, D.S.O., O.C. The Perth Regt.

2. THE CHARGE

The Convening Officer directed that the accused be tried on two Charge Sheets. Pursuant to sub-section (1) of Section 4 of the War Crimes 1 Regulations (Canada), Brigadier R. J. Orde, Judge Advocate-General, certified the case as approved for trial on the charges set out therein. At the conclusion of the trial on the first Charge Sheet, however, the approval of the Convening Officer was asked, and given, not to proceed with the second. 

The accused pleaded not guilty to all the charges.

The following are the texts of the two Charge Sheets :

FIRST CHARGE SHEET

The Accused, BRIGADEFUHRER KURT MEYER, an Offcer in the former Waffen S.S., then a part of the Armed Forces of the German Reich, now in the charge of 4 Battalion, Royal Winnipeg Rifles, Canadian Army Occupation Force, Canadian Army Overseas, is Charged With :

FIRST CHARGE:               COMMITTING A WAR CRIME

in that he in the Kingdom of Belgium and Republic of France during the year 1943 and prior to the 7th day of June, 1944, when Commander of 25 S.S. Panzer Grenadier Regiment, in violation of the laws and usages of war, incited and counselled troops under his command deny quarter to Allied troops.

SECOND CHARGE:         COMMITTING A WAR CRIME

in that he in the Province of Normandy and Republic of France on or about the 7th day of June, 1944, as Commander of 25 S.S. Panzer Grenadier Regiment, was responsible for the killing of prisoners of war, in violation of the laws and usages of war, when troops under his command killed twenty-three Canadian prisoners of war at or near the Villages of BURON and AUTHIE..

p.99

THIRD CHARGE :             COMMITTING A WAR CRIME

in that he at his Headquarters at L'Ancienne Abbaye, Ardenne in the Province of Normandy and Republic of France on or about the 8th day of June, 1944, when Commander of 25 S.S. Panzer Grenadier Regiment, in violation of the laws and usages of war gave orders to troops under his command to kill seven Canadian prisoners of war, and as a result of such orders the said prisoners of war were thereupon shot and killed.

FOURTH CHARGE :       COMMITTING A WAR  CRIME  

(Alternative to Third Charge) 

in that he in the Province of Normandy and Republic of France on or about the 8th day of June, 1944, as Commander of 25 S.S. Panzer Grenadier Regiment, was responsible for the killing of prisoners of war in violation of the laws and usages of war, when troops under his command shot and killed seven Canadian prisoners of war at his Headquarters at L'Ancienne Abbaye Ardenne.

FIFTH CHARGE :              COMMITTING A WAR CRIME

in that he in the Province of Normandy and Republic of France on or about the 7th day of June, 1944, as Commander of 25 S.S. Panzer Grenadier Regiment, was responsible for the killing of prisoners of war in violation of the laws and usages of war, when troops under his command killed eleven Canadian prisoners of war (other than those referred to in the Third and Fourth Charges) at his Headquarters  at L'Ancienne Abbaye Ardenne.

SECOND CHARGE SHEET

The Accused, BRIGADEFUHRER KURT MEYER, an Officer in the former Waffen SS., then a part of the Armed Forces of the German Reich, now in the charge of 4 Battalion, Royal Winnipeg Riffles, Canadian Army Occupation Force, Canadian Army Overseas, is Charged With :

p.100

CHARGE :                COMMITTING A WAR CRIME

in that he in the Province of Normandy and Republic of France on or about the 17th day of June, 1944, as Commander of 12 S.S. Panzer Division (Hitler-Jugend), was responsible for the killing of prisoners of war in violation of the laws and usages of war, when troops under his command killed seven Canadian prisoners of war at or near the Village of   MOUEN.


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## Michael Dorosh (15 Sep 2003)

> I am working on a paper involving attrocities


You‘ll probably want to learn how to spell the word, then.



> Anyway, I was wondering what everyone thought of the take no prisoners orders by Canadian units after they learned of the shootings?


Can you provide proof of such an order?  If such orders existed, I was led to believe they were unofficial in nature.  Given the controversy surrounding the handcuffing order at Dieppe, I sincerely doubt anyone would be stupid enough to write down a "take no prisoners" order.  The burden of proof falls on you to provide some evidence that these orders were given.



> I know that the US Army reserves the right to retaliate for such attrocities, however a Commander on the ground is not the one that determines the response, that is left up to the Commander in Chief.


Are you sure you are using the correct word?  "Retaliate"?  I can‘t believe this is accurate.  The US Army may have the "right" to incarcerate war criminals, they do not have any right to "retaliate" (if by that you mean round up people and shoot them, abuse prisoners, etc.)

What do you mean by "retaliate"?


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## Art Johnson (15 Sep 2003)

I belive the video you are rerfering to is "Take No Prisoners" part of the War Amps of Canada Never Again Series. It is available from the War Amps for $12 or $15. In it is mentioned the fact that the German Army after the war did three seperate investigations and could find no instance in which Canadians murdered POWs.


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## Long in the tooth (15 Sep 2003)

One of the units that I‘m RSS for is the Royal Winnipeg Rifles whose members were murdered in the above incidents.  There is a ‘general concensus‘ among veterans and museum staff that a tacit blind eye would be turned to any breaches of the Geneva Conventions for the next few days, similiar to the actions in ‘Breaker Morant‘.  A book was even published called ‘the Murderer Division‘ by unit members which goes into great detail.
I believe it was discovered after the trial that the divisional commander, Panzer Meyer, had nothing to do with the order but that it was restricted to Battalion and Regimental level.  This is akin to the Senior Officer‘s defence in the Somalia fiasco.
Also, I think the most dangerous action of a soldier is not charging a machine gun nest but surrendering, where the potential for ‘accidents‘ by either side is extremely high.


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## Art Johnson (16 Sep 2003)

You must remember that Kurt Meyer, a strident Nazi Party supporter, was not the Divisional Commander at the time of the murders he was a Regimental Commander and there is ample proof of his complicity in the murders. Cliff Chadderton the narrator on the tape was a Captain in the Royal Winnipeg Rifles and was there. Some of those murdered were from his company and the officers were friends of his. He is adamant that there were no similar incidents in the treatment of German POWs by Canadian soldiers.


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## Art Johnson (16 Sep 2003)

For more conversation on this subject visit the following web site:

 http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175&highlight=Kurt+Meyer


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## Michael Dorosh (16 Sep 2003)

Long in the Tooth - I am not talking about blind eyes, I am talking about explicit orders not to take prisoners.  I contend that no such orders existed.  It would look like Mr. Chadderton would agree (thanks, Art!)

Ross Munro (I believe) quoted a Royal Winnipeg Rifleman as saying "any SS man we find, we just give him the works now" or some such quote.  I believe this was in "Gauntlet to Overlord"(?)   The quote is only dimly remembered, perhaps it was Allen.  But it seemed rather sensationalistic.  Nonetheless, I would not doubt tht individuals in the RWR - maybe even the majority - did not feel inclined to take SS prisoners.

That still has nothing to do with official orders from above condoning the practice.

I would still like to see some sort of proof that this did happen (in the wake of the Dieppe fiasco, where orders to simply handcuff German prisoners had far reaching implications for Canadians in German hands - followed by the Commando Order in October 1942 which showed that the Germans were more than willing to execute captured Allied soldiers - it is extremely unlikely that the Canadians would have tempted the Germans once again to take reprisals on the many Canadians in German PW camps).

I would also like to see some sort of substantiation for the claim that US troops today are permitted to carry out reprisals.


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## Spr.Earl (17 Sep 2003)

Long in the Tooth,
With member‘s of the Rifle‘s were 3 Sapper‘s from 6Fd Co. who were with them on that recce to scout out the front.
If I remenber it happened on about June 8,44.

The Fifth Estate also did a program about Meier.


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## Michael Dorosh (18 Sep 2003)

Replying to the posts in order

You cite some law, but don‘t tell us where you are getting the quote from.  What is the source, please?

The US Army probably prohibits a lot of things that are legal in some other corner of the world.  Would a US soldier on leave in Amsterdam be permitted to use marijuana or harder substances?

Secondly - you still have presented not a shred of proof of any kind of "official" order permitting the murder of German prisoners by Canadians.  Again, I contend no such orders existed.  I would not be surprised to find that the anecdotal evidence of Canadian abuse and even murder of SS prisoners was true; I doubt sincerely that any orders were given in any kind of formal manner.  The burden of proof still rests on you, since you were the one to fling the accusation out into cyberspace and this discussion.

Specifically you say



> however I do believe that there were orders given by CDN NCOs and officers to either execute or refuse to take prisoners during WWII.


without giving any reason _why_ you believe this. Gut feeling?


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## Bill Smy (18 Sep 2003)

I don‘t think you will ever find documentary evidence that orders were given by Canadian officers not to take prisoners, but I have heard enough stories by veterans that lead me to believe that Canadians did, indeed, commit war crimes in North West Europe during World War II.

One which leaps to mind, is that in which a man said he was told by his Company Commander to take three German prisoners back to the Brigade POW holding area, and "be back in five minutes." Implicit in the order was to take the Germans out of sight and shoot them. He said to me that as a "good soldier, I did what was ordered."


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## Bill Smy (18 Sep 2003)

I meant to add that I vaguely recall reading that the reason Vokes commuted Meyer‘s death sentence was that the Canadian high command was concerned that there was a possibility of Canadians being charged with similar offences, and if so, they wanted to ensure that Canada had set a precedent in punishment.

I cannot recall the source, nor can I say with any confidence that the source was credible.


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## Michael Dorosh (18 Sep 2003)

> I don‘t think you will ever find documentary evidence that orders were given by Canadian officers not to take prisoners, but I have heard enough stories by veterans that lead me to believe that Canadians did, indeed, commit war crimes in North West Europe during World War II.
> 
> One which leaps to mind, is that in which a man said he was told by his Company Commander to take three German prisoners back to the Brigade POW holding area, and "be back in five minutes." Implicit in the order was to take the Germans out of sight and shoot them. He said to me that as a "good soldier, I did what was ordered."


That‘s rather different than a standing order, though, or a matter of policy.


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## Marauder (18 Sep 2003)

First off, if Icky does his job right the first time, there shouldn‘t be anyone *left* to surrender.

Secondly : Never surrender. Your honour lies in victory or death. Wise words to live by, particularly if fighting someone like the WWII era Japanese or the current crop of camel jockeys. I‘d rather buy it first than be at the hands of animals like those just mentioned.

Third, Woody, I don‘t know what your particular axe to grind is, but you‘ll just have to take our word that the majority of Canadian troops don‘t go out of our way to murder punk Somali kids or bayonet Hans and Franz after they decide to call it a war. That said, we take care of our own (most of the time) in both life and death.


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## Michael Dorosh (18 Sep 2003)

Okay, having had to time to thoroughly read the text the Maj posted for us, I don‘t see anything about shooting prisoners.  Reprisals may be taken, it would appear, against legal combatants only.

In other words, if you are in a DMZ, say, and the "enemy" keeps shooting your people, you would be permitted to launch a raid, emplace a sniper, etc. in violation of a cease fire agreement in order to enact a reprisal.

The murder of POWs is stricly prohibited by that very same text that is quoted.

Or am I reading it wrong?


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Sep 2003)

It would depend on the nature of the reprisals, I guess.  Blowing up an ambulance marked with the red cross would obviously be bad.

I think you‘re reading too much into the word "reprisal".  My interpretation - which may well be incorrect - is that the text refers to legitimate acts of war that would normally be "illegal" - I am guessing that a cease fire would be an example.  Given that the text gives no real examples, it is hard for me, at least, to divine their intent.  Perhaps someone with operational experience wants to jump in here, I wouldn‘t doubt that the Balkans might yield some examples.

The text states that reprisals can only be direct at "enemy personnel or property."

Civilians and "protected" personnel are strictly prohibited.  That leaves only combatant soldiers.

Maybe a definition of "illegal" exists in the source document somewhere?  All I can think of is illegally breaking a truce or cease-fire.

Unless it applies to "illegal" use of certain weapons in situations where their use has been outlawed?


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## Spr.Earl (20 Sep 2003)

After the murder of the memeber‘s of the Winnipeg Rifle‘s and the Engineer‘s of 6Fd Co. there was no verbal or written order given to the troop‘s but it became an understanding with at the field level that any S.S. troop‘s would be dealt with as seen fit as any of us today would do.

I have heard this from Vet‘s of 6Fd Co. and also from many vet‘s when it came to the S.S.

Over all Canadian troop‘s repsected P.O.W.‘s 

There again we can go to the U.S. P.O.W. camp‘s in WW2 were 1,000‘s died from neglect and starvation.


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Sep 2003)

Due to the controversy, I think one should put aside the book OTHER LOSSES which I don‘t trust.  Barring that, then, what solid sources are there on the US mistreatment of PWs issue?

In any event, aren‘t we really talking about the end of the war, in Europe, where detainment camps had to look after hundreds of thousands of German PWs?  I don‘t think we‘re talking about Andersonville here.

Anyway, Spr. Earl, more to the point - your comments on the Canadian vets in Normandy back up what I say perfectly, thanks for that.  Given any kind of written order (which would have been suicide) researching the case of Canadian mistreatment of PWs in Normandy would be exceedingly difficult.  I‘m not sure exactly what further intellectual fruit could be gleaned from the attempt.


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## Art Johnson (20 Sep 2003)

Regarding the mistreatment of prisoners by Canadian Soldiers. One in Italy where Chris Volkes
is reputed to have knocked a German prisoner on his ***  after the prisoner had spat on him.One in Normandy where CSM George Mitchell of the Argyles gave a German officer the butt when he spat on him. The Normandy occasion is all but captured in a famous picture with David Currie.

www3.memlane.com/gromboug/currievc.jpg


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## Art Johnson (23 Sep 2003)

And your sourse for your statement is? I don‘t believe you for one minute, and frankly I don‘t recall what happened to ant of the prisoners that we brought in either. That doesn‘t mean they were murdered.


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## Art Johnson (23 Sep 2003)

First of all we were talking about a friend of mine who was in the Canadian Army and you said that the mother of the German officer spoke to George and I asked you to give me your sourse for that statement and you have come back with something that has nothing to do with the Canadian Army. In another action subsequent to the butt stroke incident CSM George Mitchel was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal
I think we have exchange views on this subject before on a different board. You were eventually banned from the board as you had nothing of substance to offer you are just **** disturbing. When asked by MAD if you had ever served you claimed to be confined to a wheelchair. Again I ask you to give me sourse for your statement that the German oddicer‘s mother spoke to CSM George Mitchell. It didn‘t happen and you know it.


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## Art Johnson (24 Sep 2003)

You are **** right I‘m threating, you are attempting to sully  the reputation of a friend and collegue of mine and a Canadian Hero to boot TELL ME THE SOURSE OF YOUR REMARK NEVER MIND ALL THE BS THAT YOU ARE THROWING UP.


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## D-n-A (24 Sep 2003)

I have a book on the 1st SS Panzer Corp(panzer units of 1st LSSAH an 12th SS HJ combined into a corps)

it talks about the executions a bit


also, I dont know if this has been brought up or not, but not all SS Soldats were Nazi‘s. A lot of them didnt join up(some were conscripted) because they were devoted Nazi‘s, they just wanted to be in a "modern" military force, that was seen to the the elite/best of Germany. 

A lot of "sub-humans" in Aryan standards were in the W-SS, like the Slavs.


also, people cant just point the finger to the germans on war crimes, all sides commited war crimes, just the victor‘s never seem to get punished(atleast back in those days)


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Sep 2003)

Art, don‘t let him get to you.  Sherwood is so full of **** his eyes are brown.  Aside from his continual stream of dumb questions about our Army, his posts in this thread have certainly revealed he isn‘t much of a scholar, either.  If he is using the History Channel as a source, can‘t spell the subject of his next paper, or continues to make claims for which he has no actual source, there really isn‘t much point continuing any civilized discussion with him.

Considering that you yourself have seen combat, as a Canadian, not to mention your work as an historian with the 48th, I would be far more inclined to listen you you on the subject of Canadian soldiers in action than to some alleged American soldier who can‘t keep his stories straight and who feels the need to ask elementary questions over and over again.

As for d-n-a‘s faulty statement that the victors never get punished, I think Hermann Goering would be proud, he spouted the same line at Nuremberg before they scheduleda date for him with the hangman.  How many Germans were punished for "war crimes"?  Very few, in total.  The Malmedy Massacre and the Sagan murders ("The Great Escape") were heavily prosecuted - I think 40 Germans were executed for role at Malmedy where 70+ soldiers were gunned down in cold blood.  The Sagan murders involved 50 British and allied pilots who were executed by the Gestapo; a brilliant effort netted the majority of perpetrators, perhaps even all of them that weren‘t either killed at Nuremberg (ie Kaltenbrunner), killed in action before the end of the war, or taken by the Russians.

But beyond that, was every German that ever killed a prisoner or abused a Jew sent to jail?  No.

Putting aside the Russians, and Katyn, how many mass murders were perpetrated by Canadian units? 

If anyone has any evidence that doesn‘t come from the History Channel of any great unprosecuted Canadian war crimes, feel free to post about it now.


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## D-n-A (24 Sep 2003)

Michael Doroush, I was talking about the Allied Forces as a whole, not just the Canadians, I havent heard about any "great" canadian war crimes..


but, for Allied War Crimes,  as far as I know havent been had the people who commited them punished are..


Inhumane Treatment of POW‘s, mostly for the SS Soldiers, a lot were beat up(mostly after people heard of the execution of canadian soldiers commited by members of the 12th SS). An being shot on site shooting POW‘s, an wounded soldiers in a hospital, these how ever were commited mostly(from what I‘ve read) by the Russians, who tended to shoot all SS prisoners on site.


I‘ve also heard of US MP‘s who executed a lot of W-SS soldiers who were on there way to the front lines, but were captured close to a Concentration or Death Camp, because they mistook them for the W-SS Camp Guards, but the camp guards fled before the Allied forces came near the camp.  This incident happened in ‘45.


An when the Russians took Berlin, mass looting, an rape took place, commited by the Russians, I know this would be near impossible to prosecute every single soldier.


Thats all I could think up right now.


Michael, do you know if the Soldiers of 1st LSSAH that commited the massacre of 65-80 British Soldiers of the 48th Division? In France, May 1940 have been caught/punished?


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Sep 2003)

> Michael Doroush, I was talking about the Allied Forces as a whole, not just the Canadians, I havent heard about any "great" canadian war crimes..


Neither have I, but of course, I don‘t have access to the secret US Army files on the subject.  I suppose I need to watch the History Channel more often.    


> but, for Allied War Crimes, as far as I know havent been had the people who commited them punished are..


I‘ll need that translated, I‘m afraid I only speak English.    



> Inhumane Treatment of POW‘s, mostly for the SS Soldiers, a lot were beat up(mostly after people heard of the execution of canadian soldiers commited by members of the 12th SS).


So what?  Lots of Limeys got beat up in bars in England by drunk Canadians.  I wasn‘t aware that beating someone up was a ‘war crime‘.  Did we actually prosecute Germans for ‘beating up" PWs?  If not, then this is irrelevant.



> An being shot on site shooting POW‘s, an wounded soldiers in a hospital, these how ever were commited mostly(from what I‘ve read) by the Russians, who tended to shoot all SS prisoners on site.


I don‘t doubt that conditions on the Russian Front were far worse; it was an openly declared war of genocide.  I think it strays pretty far off topic, though.  The Russians were one of the world‘s leading powers in 1945.  There was no way to prosecute THEM for war crimes (ie Katyn) simply because the other world powers wanted to keep the peace, and were in no position to dictate terms to the Russians, their erstwhile allies.

Should, in a perfect world, the Russians have tried their own people for war crimes?  Yep.



> I‘ve also heard of US MP‘s who executed a lot of W-SS soldiers who were on there way to the front lines, but were captured close to a Concentration or Death Camp, because they mistook them for the W-SS Camp Guards, but the camp guards fled before the Allied forces came near the camp.


I‘ll need a source for this before I believe it.



> An when the Russians took Berlin, mass looting, an rape took place, commited by the Russians, I know this would be near impossible to prosecute every single soldier.


This, on the other hand, is of course well known.  And it should be noted that German soldiers found guilty of rape while serving in Russia were severely punished.  Bartov talks about rates of punishment in HITLER‘S ARMY.  I interviewed a veteran from Panzer Lehr who also told me that they were punished for rape - but all the Russian girls were unattractive anyway!    

I think the point here, though, is that US, Canadian or British "war crimes" were extremely rare, and while there may be some validity to the claim that justice was only served by the victors to the vanquished, it probably only really applies to the Russians.  Discipline in US and Canadian units was quite tight.  Two men, for example, in the South Alberta Regiment were severely punished for raping a Dutch woman, even though the evidence was circumstantial at best.  See the book SOUTH ALBERTAS: A CANADIAN REGIMENT AT WAR by Donald Graves for full details of this, as well as additional info in PEEWEES ON PARADE, a personal memoir of a soldier in the South Alberta Regiment who knew one of the accused "rapists".


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## D-n-A (24 Sep 2003)

"I‘ll need a source for this before I believe it."

I found this article of W-SS Guards at Dachau being executed by US Soldiers

 http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/SoldiersKilled.html 


I‘ll keep looking for some information the on incident that I was referring to earliar

on a side note, while doing my search, I came across this, I‘m not sure how authentic it is, but It‘s an interesting read on the British executing varouis SS members after the war that were suspected of killing SOE an SAS members during the war.
 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stickems/JosefGalinsky.htm


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## muskrat89 (24 Sep 2003)

Post withdrawn


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## Michael Dorosh (24 Sep 2003)

> I‘m going to state something, and it will be my last statement on this particular topic.


Bet it won‘t be.



> Like most Canadian families, I had several close members fight in WWI, WWII, and Korea. As relatives, and Canadians, I hold them in very high esteem - "untouchable, and pure" in many regards. That being said, one of my family members rarely talked to me about his experiences. He was on tribal class destroyers, and corvettes, during the War. He related - once - and never again, an experience where Canadian seamen supposedly turned small arms and MGs on some German survivors in the water. I doubt very much there are any official accounts anywhere. The issue wasn‘t pressed, and I think the only reason it was spoken at all was to lighten a burden. Crappy stuff happens in wars. Some, I take it, crappier than other stuff. Some is acceptable, and some is not. I have talked to enough veterans in my life to know that Canadians live in no glass houses, on this issue.


But the key point you‘re missing here is - we were no worse and no better than the majority of our enemies on this score.  See my point below on your use of the word "blatant".



> If I misspelled a word, Dorosh, or there‘s a typo that invalidates everything, great. Your attitude on this board gets snarkier and more pompous every day, and it started long before Sherwood arrived. If there‘s no accounts in the archives, or vessel histories, and I‘m lying, thats great too.


Oh please.  If you‘re not able to see Sherwood for he is, then that‘s your problem.



> If someone questions my admiration and respect for Canadian veterans, they are in for a ride - I have demonstrated it. Mr. Johnson - am not disputing your account, nor your friend‘s. I am just saying that knowledge of circumstances, or perceived knowledge of circumstances.. doesn‘t necessarily mean someone is passing judgement. The blatant violations aside, most of us are in no position to judge...


Exactly, which is why this conversation to date has been about the blatant violations.  I contend there won‘t be any record of the Canadian ones, probably because "blatant" violations - depending on your definition - weren‘t on the magnitude of those of our German enemies, or our Soviet allies.  Take a look at the record of Prinz Eugen in the Balkans, or even the units that fought in the west at Oradour in 1944, or at Dunkirk in 1940, and tell me that anything western allied troops did compared to that?  

We are not talking about the "**** happens" type stuff and I‘d dismiss your naval incident as irrelevant, as it may indeed have been quite common, and most certainly undocumented.


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## Danjanou (24 Sep 2003)

*Right up to now I‘ve kept silent on this thread. Mainly because I‘ve been out of the country and away from internet access until now. I‘m back and caught up on my reading now and not pleased.

When I agreed to be moderator of this branch I stated I was pretty easy going and for the most part I am. I find the initial debate in this thread valid and interesting. This is the sort of thing that should be discussed here, rationally 
(as opposed to more tales of paint ball and video game exploits by soldier wannabees).

That said and done the little snide comments and personal cracks that have started creeping in will cease. This is not directed at any one individual either. Might I suggest that we all start acting like what we‘re supposed to be, soldiers and professionals and not a bunch of preschoolers at recess.

I would prefer not to shut this thread down as  said it is both interesting and I feel a valid and important topic for informed debate. I will not however allow it to deterirate into the same juvenile verbal diarrea that has recently befallen another thread elsewhere on the board.*


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## Michael Dorosh (25 Sep 2003)

Well, why don‘t we start from the top again.

The original questions were these:



> I am working on a paper involving attrocities and the breaking of the geneva conventions by all belligerents in WWII....Anyway, I was wondering what everyone thought of the take no prisoners orders by Canadian units after they learned of the shootings? Does and did Canada have some type of rules of land warfare?


We‘ve established that no such orders were given officially, and no one has presented anything but anecdotal evidence re: unofficial orders.  The Horror and The Valour talked about this in the Normandy episode; perhaps the companion book or website has some actual references to quote.



> There is some thought that says the CDN troops committed brutal acts first and that is why the Germans reacted...I am a little sceptical of that claim, although I do think that there were many instances of war crimes on all sides that were never reported.


We‘ve pretty much agreed that the last part of this statement is true.  As for the first, we have yet to see documentary evidence presented.

So there it stands.


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