# Who killed the Canadian Military?



## CDNBlackhawk

Here is a book that i just recently finished reading, Its called "who killed the canadian Military" By J.L. Granastein.


The book talks about where we came from to where we are today and how we got their.
A very good book!!!


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## pegged

Who killed the Canadian Military?
J.L. Granatstein

I haven‘t started reading it yet, looks good.


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## CDNBlackhawk

awsome book

It will really open your eyes on how our government works.


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## mattoigta

JL Granatstein is a great Canadian historian so I don‘t suppose youre going to be disappointed. Tell us how it is once you‘re done.


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## Michael Dorosh

David Bercuson wrote a good one called Significant Incident.  It is about Somalia, but much of the book talks about military tradition and its evolution in Canada.  I can‘t say how good the Somalia parts are, but the rest of the historical background is quite good.


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## PriceCHofO

Great Book


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## Sgt O`Hara

The Canadian Military Would be the best in the world if the gov. wouldnt havent gotten rid of the Arrow . It was the best jet ever invented.


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## Franko

Correction....best at the time   

Regards


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## Rodman201

Granatstein is an exceptional author and a great historian that writes his history so the average Canadian will get some enjoyment out of the work; unlike many other academic historians.   Another good book that he authored a few years ago was "Who Killed Canadian History?".  He‘s also been involved in a few studies on the future of the Armed Forces in Canada and writes extensivly on Canadian military history.


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## devil39

> Originally posted by O‘Hara:
> [qb] The Canadian Military Would be the best in the world if the gov. wouldnt havent gotten rid of the Arrow . It was the best jet ever invented. [/qb]


I went to a Dr. Granatstein talk a few nights ago.  He certainly would not agree with you.  It was a good jet and one of the best of its day.  

His opinion was that cancelling the Arrow project was the right decision for many reasons.  It was too expensive (approaching 48 times more expensive than the equivalent US jet according to his book), we had no other buyers, and the US was building equivalent jets.  The UK made similar decisions to us and cancelled their domestic projects.

Granatstein did say that the cancellation was very poorly executed.  He claims that prideful nationalism, coupled with anti-americanism created a military icon for a pacifist nation.


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## Rodman201

There are quite a few well versed authors/historians that would disagree with Granatstein upon the fate of the Avro Arrow and it symbolic importance to Canadians. But this is what keeps the discipline of history alive. Such well read authors include, Palmiro Campagna who wrote two books(just finished his most recent one, very good), Greig Stewart, the Arrowheads and a few others.  However, I would stay away from anything written by Peter Zuuring (exhibits alot of bias  in my opinion).  Just incase anyone wanted to pursue the literature of the arrow any further. But I will end it at that since I realize this is an army website.


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## Gibson

My prof for one of my history courses wrote a good rebuttal for Granatstein.  I‘m sure it‘s still a good book, but don‘t take anything as gospel that‘s written in those things.  One thing I‘ve learned studying history


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## GerryCan

A book by J.L. Granatstein, a former member of the CF who pretty much points as many fingers as possible and gives his opinion of ‘Who Really Killed The Canadian Military‘. Some really good points throughout the book, others that are just depressing, but a very good read.


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## rdschultz

Yeah, really good book.  I picked it up at the library a couple weeks ago and took it back the next day.  Very interesting.


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## pegged

I posted this already, no problem though.

 http://army.ca/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/14/76


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## Limpy

A really good summery of the bad turns that governments and voters (who Granatstein puts blame too) made to allow the Forces get to the state it's  in currently.


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## 1feral1

I always thought it was Trudeau.


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## Limpy

Yeah if you could only say one name to blame the state of the Forces on, Trudeau would be in the running for spot #1. The other may be Paul Hellyer.


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## casing

I really liked the book.   Was very enlightening for myself and clarified quite a few questions I already had, but didn't have the knowledge with which to fill in the blanks.


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## Yeoman

Limpy said:
			
		

> Yeah if you could only say one name to blame the state of the Forces on, Trudeau would be in the running for spot #1. The other may be Paul Hellyer.



I met paul hellyer about 2 years ago. very interesting man. I had a very in depth discussion with him on the current status of the canadian military. now he may of been talking like a true politician (ie. out of his rear) but he said he was disgusted at the state of how the military is. who knows, maybe he really meant it. 
Greg


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## KevinB

I made it a point to read while the Battalion was being bussed from Edmonton to Camp Ripley Minnesotta...  Hmm no useful training area in Canada or failing that planes to get us to one...

 Good read, a little depressing but true to a fault.


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## ghazise

A Better Book to read is the DISARMING OF CANADA, it goes much more indepth about the entire history of the Canadian Forces, to explain the traditions of the Regimental System in the Army and our relations with the US and British military throughout the history of the forces and addresses the same topics of WHO KILLED THE CANADIAN MILITARY, I thought WHO KILLED THE CANADIAN MILITARY  just lacked in content and only addressed the events at a superficial level,


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## Michael Dorosh

Yeoman said:
			
		

> I met paul hellyer about 2 years ago. very interesting man. I had a very in depth discussion with him on the current status of the canadian military. now he may of been talking like a true politician (ie. out of his rear) but he said he was disgusted at the state of how the military is. who knows, maybe he really meant it.
> Greg



Integration of the forces was a great idea, unfortunately, by the time it was promulgated, it turned into unification and was implemented very poorly.  There is a good book out there about the office of the CDS (this was introduced at the same time as Unification) that goes into great detail about Unification and the military after 1967.  I'll try and find the title if anyone is interested, I borrowed it from the U of C library a few months back.  I think Hellyer's heart was in the right place.

Oh, and for those geniuses in the other thread hooting and hollering about how all cabinet ministers "need" military experience, guess what - Hellyer had been in the RCAF during WW II.  Some people feel his inability to get into the trade of his choice was what coloured his perception of the Forces and caused so much irrepairable harm post-Unification.


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## Infanteer

I think Granatstein kept the book quite light in order to appeal to his intended audience, the uneducated public.   He had no reason to write a book on "who killed the Canadian Military" full of technical stuff and detailed studies for soldiers as we are for the most part keenly aware of our own problems and issues.


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## Danjanou

I see your point Infanteer re KISS so the masses will actually pick it up at the local Chapters and Indigo. Considering it's made the bestseller list IIRC I guess it worked.

Hasek's book is a little more technical but I still recomend it. A bit dated now as he wrote it in 1987, but he actually used a several historical precedents for the gutting of our military, and even offered possible solutions.

His credentials are pretty good to. Former Infantry officer with 30 years in and overseas tours in Ghana, Cyprus and Vietnam and he topped out as a Major, which suggests he must have pissed off some one at NDHQ.


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## Ian_M

Michael do you mind getting the title of the book as well as the name of the person who wrote it? I think I'm going to order that book next since I'm interested in learning more about the CF after unification.


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## logau

Hellyer has an excellent book called DAMN THE TORPEDOES and he goes into how the Brass didn't want what he wanted....and the rest is history

He touches briefly on the the NUCLEAR WARHEADS we had at our disposal to be launched from Cdn Arty, Air and Sea forces. A lot of fish would come up with those kinds of CIL wobblers!

All will enjoy the   book.

If you really want to get a birds eye view of the sludge in the Ottawa SWAMP - get this book No Surrender by Hugh Segal - he was a high up assistant to Premier Bill Davis and was Mulroney's Chief of Staff. He lays it out that the culprit is the long term bureaucrats. If DND gets more $ then other depts get less $.

Nothing a massive firing (I didn't say squad) - purge wouldn't solve. Segal suggests they should fire these weeners and put up with six months of turmoil.

Previous to the election I heard from a guy I see at my course (did I say I work at NDHQ???    :threat:   ) and he said they have to fire down to the full Col line - so you could extend that across the civil service.

Not in our life times says you!


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## LowRider

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> I always thought it was Trudeau.


  

Trudeau just finished off what Dief the thief started!


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## HCA

Great read. Bought it and finished it the same day. I gave me an appetite for further readings in this area.


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## Quinn

The 60's:

Vietnam, Trudeau, the hippies, the apparent de-escalation of the Soviet threat, the growing need for domestic programs, all combined to "kill" the CAF. 

Chretien, being a Trudeauite, simply carried on in that tradition.


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## sean m

Hello 

Has anyone read the book, "Who Killed the Canadian Military" by J L Granstein. It is a good book? is it accurate?  Do you believe that the canadian forces have improved, what is the main priority for the canadian forces now?


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## George Wallace

sean m

You wouldn't wear out your fingertips so much if you would learn how to do some research (ie. use the SEARCH function).


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## SeanNewman

sean m said:
			
		

> ...what is the main priority for the *C*anadian *F*orces now?



Afghanistan.  Perhaps you've heard about it on the news.


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## sean m

I am really sry for this honestly, I did try the search functio and didnt see anything relating to the book, I am so sry everyone


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## SeanNewman

As per the rules of the website, can you please get away from the MSM/text messaging script?

As in please write out "sorry" so everyone knows what you're talking about.

There are certain short forms that you may see on here or in military writing that are approved short forms, such as the rank of Sgt or RCR instead of writing out The Royal Canadian Regiment, but typically things like lol, omg, etc are frowned upon as most of us are older than 12 here.


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## mariomike

Petamocto said:
			
		

> As per the rules of the website, can you please get away from the MSM/text messaging script?
> 
> As in please write out "sorry" so everyone knows what you're talking about.
> 
> There are certain short forms that you may see on here or in military writing that are approved short forms, such as the rank of Sgt or RCR instead of writing out The Royal Canadian Regiment, but typically things like lol, omg, etc are frowned upon as most of us are older than 12 here.



I ran what you said through the translator. 
"This translator will take what you write in it and turn it into the manner a 12-year-old AOLer would write it.":
http://ssshotaru.homestead.com/files/aolertranslator.html

AS P3R DA RULAS OF TEH WABSIET CAN U PLZ GET AWAY FROM DA MSM/T3XT M3SAGNG SCRIPT

AS???!?! OMG WTF LOL IN PLZ WRIET OUT SORY SO AVERYONE KNOWS WUT UR TOKNG ABOUT

THERE!1!1!11! OMG WTF R CERTANE SHORT FORMS TAHT U MAY SE ON HERE OR IN MILITARY WRITNG TAHT R APROV3D SHORT FORMS SUCH AS DA RANK OF SGT OR RCR INSTEAD OF WRITNG OUT TEH ROYAL CANADIAN R3GIEMNT BUT TYPICALY THNGS LIEK LOL OMG ATC R FROWNED UPON AS MOST OF US R OLDAR THAN 12 HER3
!1!1!! WTF LOL


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## Ex-Dragoon

sean m said:
			
		

> I am really sry for this honestly, I did try the search functio and didnt see anything relating to the book, I am so sry everyone



Well I am _sorry_ that you continue to disregard direction in using MSN speak. If I see _one_ more example of msn speak in your posts, you will get the enxt warning level.keep it up after that and your Banned. Pay attention to detail, you will need that skill should you ever go Intelligence or HUMINT.

Milnet.Ca Staff


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Notwithstanding sean m's inability to read backwards through this very thread, lets answer his question.

Yes, it is a good book. Is it  accurate? It is not a scholar's research paper, it is an essay. The factual basis is reasonably accurate, but the essay includes a lot of the author's opinion, which should not be dismissed too easily in view of his credentials. So overall, a good read and an educational one.

Other possibilities of interest: 

(1) The Disarming of Canada, by John Hasek: A little dated on some aspect. Much more thoroughly researched than Granastein's book. It is a combination history, politics and military studies all wrapped in one, with the author advocating the adoption of a centralized "General Staff", continental europe style to re-establish a proper profession of arms in Canada and to counteract the civil service power with the politicians. (This way, someone who knows what she is talking about could explain to politicians that a Stryker is NOT a main battle tank or that you do not try to put an amphibious assault force onboard a floating bomb called an AOR, juts my personal beefs here though - not Hasek's).

(2) Understanding Canadian Defence (the 2003 edition), Desmond Morton: A fascinating work looking at the historical political aspects that shaped the defence plans  and armed forces of Canada. This one is a must read for anyone who wants to figure why Canadian politicians behave as they do towards the defence issues and the military, even while we are at war in Afghanistan. And,

(3) anything by Gwynne Dyer, just for the shear enjoyment of reading on world events from a very Canadian perspective.

Bon reading!


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## SeanNewman

Like a lot of his books, he goes into a bit of a (quite accurate) tangent about how stupid (my choice of words, to paraphrase his) a lot of Canadians are for being so anti-American.


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