# France Burning



## tomahawk6 (6 Nov 2005)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174686,00.html

Rioting is now spreading across France for its second week. The French police union is demanding the government call out the army to impose martial law. The reaction of Chirac and his government has been slow and ineffective. The Prime Minister intially called for a study to be completed by the end of the month meanwhile the rioting spread. Thirty police have been injured so far. Hundreds have been arrested. I doubt the government has the stomach to take hard action.


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## George Wallace (6 Nov 2005)

Naaa!  Send in the SF and Sniper Teams.  Any smart a$$ punk throwing fire bombs gets dropped on the spot.  Practice some quick shots on his friends too.


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## Acorn (6 Nov 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Send in the Foreign Legion to 'fix' things, that'll end any more ideas these idiots have of carrying on the rioting.



Oh that's a smart solution. Why doesn't France just nuke itself - we don't need the wine and cheese anyway.



> I like the excuse these youths have for starting the riots. IMHO, arrest them and then stick them on the first plane back to wherever they came from. I have little sympathy for those who burn the countries that let them in.



Send them back to where? They come from France - some are even third generation.

(edit to correct spelling/grammar)


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## Jungle (6 Nov 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> Why doesn't France just nuke itself - *we don't need the wine and cheese anyway*.


Talk for yourself !!!


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## SHF (6 Nov 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> Oh that's a smart solution. Why doesn't France just nuke itself - we don't need the wine and cheese anyway.



I hope to you don't take yourself too seriously and your comment is just some immature sarcasm.  I've served with French forces and they are as good as we are, very good hosts, and treat us with respect.  The "freedom fries" thing down south may seem like a band wagon to jump upon but you might want to educate yourself before you jump aboard.  In my opinion your remarks border on asinine and do not reflect well upon military folks who share this site.


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## geo (6 Nov 2005)

you will find that most western democracies have great trepidation about the idea of calling out the military to get a horrible grip on the citzens.
Most countries that would do it quickly.... have a rather loose defenition for democracy.
Yes, France has problems. Over the years, as all the immigrants have been moving into the country, they have been directed/pushed into these suburban ghettos that are a dead end. No work, no hope, no respect.... I'm a little surprised that it didn't blow up before now.


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## muskrat89 (6 Nov 2005)

SHF - I think you're the one taking yourself too seriously. Acorn was being sarcastic.

Relax


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## Jungle (6 Nov 2005)

muskrat89 said:
			
		

> SHF - I think you're the one taking yourself too seriously. Acorn was being sarcastic.
> Relax


Yeah... But if it does come to France destructing itself with nukes, they must absolutely save the Bordeaux and Languedoc regions... and under no circumstances are they to threaten the Douro valley in Portugal !!!    ;D


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## Wolfe (6 Nov 2005)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Yeah... But if it does come to France destructing itself with nukes, they must absolutely save the Bordeaux and Languedoc regions... and under no circumstances are they to threaten the Douro valley in Portugal !!!      ;D



Jungle imagine for a sec......alll the wine gone....no more.....not even a single drop...... :blotto: :brickwall:


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## onecat (6 Nov 2005)

Your using a Foxnews post on happening in France.  Come in no way is that the best source of news for what is there, they totally biased when it comes to France.  I remember watching Foxnews after the London bombing, and they had some crackpot on there, saying how this why he wanted France to the Olympic games in 2012.. because actually wanted bombing to happen there.  Even the CBC gives the tories better and fairer coverage.


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## Dare (6 Nov 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> you will find that most western democracies have great trepidation about the idea of calling out the military to get a horrible grip on the citzens.
> Most countries that would do it quickly.... have a rather loose defenition for democracy.
> Yes, France has problems. Over the years, as all the immigrants have been moving into the country, they have been directed/pushed into these suburban ghettos that are a dead end. No work, no hope, no respect.... I'm a little surprised that it didn't blow up before now.


Ah yes. I see. France had it coming, eh? It's just despair boiling over, right? There are no other political asperations and/or statements being forwarded with this? Typical whitewashing.. these are not just any immigrants, are they? The French believe it is organized behavior and so do I. Most poor people don't start burning things down because they live paycheque to paycheque. I am well below the poverty line, myself. I don't get a whole lot of respect at work, and I have little hope of that changing in the near future. 

I have yet to torch a car.

Perhaps there's a reason such people don't earn the respect they desire? I suspect it might have something to do with the kind of country they wish to change France into? The solution to this problem certainly isn't granting respect, hope and work to the people burning out schools and cars.


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## Dare (6 Nov 2005)

radiohead said:
			
		

> Your using a Foxnews post on happening in France.  Come in no way is that the best source of news for what is there, they totally biased when it comes to France.  I remember watching Foxnews after the London bombing, and they had some crackpot on there, saying how this why he wanted France to the Olympic games in 2012.. because actually wanted bombing to happen there.  Even the CBC gives the tories better and fairer coverage.


Yeah, sure they do. Let's get a URL to the transcripts of that statement.


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## GO!!! (7 Nov 2005)

What you have here (in france) is a perfect example of immigration policies run amok.

Left leaning parties undertake to allow as many immigrants into a country as possible - and then tell them to keep this policy in effect, they will have to vote left! This is not a new idea - NY city politicians did it to the Irish as they stepped off the boat in the 1800s - handing out soup and handbills.

If western democracies are to be successful in maintaining the policies and institutions that made them bastions of wealth and power in the first place, they will have to attract far more immigrants willing to embrace them, as opposed to the "ghetto mentality" in which they only associate with their countrymen in racially homogenous neighborhoods. These are the areas that are such a problem in France right now. 

IMO, the French should send a strong message that this behaviour will not be tolerated, and break the mobs with deadly force, followed by a wave of deportations. Fight fire with fire.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Nov 2005)

I 100% agree with GO!! on this, maybe a " those who participate tonight will be subjected to possible lethal weapons" annoucement and then a follow through is the only way to stop this....


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## Dare (7 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> What you have here (in france) is a perfect example of immigration policies run amok.
> 
> Left leaning parties undertake to allow as many immigrants into a country as possible - and then tell them to keep this policy in effect, they will have to vote left! This is not a new idea - NY city politicians did it to the Irish as they stepped off the boat in the 1800s - handing out soup and handbills.
> 
> ...


There are many racially grouped areas in Canada, as well. It is common sense that when one moves to a different country it is likely that one would wish to be around familiarity. No one is forcing these people to live in groupings. As we can also see by the reports, it is not "racially" homogenous, but rather culturally homogenous neighbourhoods. We're missing a beat if we blame these events on seperation or as our new GG likes to term it "solitudes". The Amish are relatively poor, racially and culturally homogenous, yet they are not burning cars.. 

Poverty, unemployment, disrespect, "ghetto mentality".. these are all smokescreens.


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## daniel h. (7 Nov 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> There are many racially grouped areas in Canada, as well. It is common sense that when one moves to a different country it is likely that one would wish to be around familiarity. No one is forcing these people to live in groupings. As we can also see by the reports, it is not "racially" homogenous, but rather culturally homogenous neighbourhoods. We're missing a beat if we blame these events on seperation or as our new GG likes to term it "solitudes". The Amish are relatively poor, racially and culturally homogenous, yet they are not burning cars..
> 
> Poverty, unemployment, disrespect, "ghetto mentality".. these are all smokescreens.



Well, racially the rioters are certainly not European...though Northern Ireland and the Balkans are nothing to be proud of, it does appear that Muslims and Africans have a higher rate of violent crime as per statistics compared with Europeans. Culturally as well, they are very different which when added to the economic factors is enough to set things off.

Anybody that actually thinks these people should be "integrated" are missing the point. Minorities are a threat to the majority. France is right to not want these people ***** **** **** ****--but the solution was never letting them come to France in the first place--forget the imperial ties.

There are ethnic ghettos in Toronto I know for sure, based on race and/or ethnicity. Whether race-based or ethnic based, they bother me. We never voted for multiculturalism or open immigration so I'm glad our out of touch politicians are finally getting what they deserve--evidence of their bad decision-making.

France even gives immigrants new satellite TV, along with apartments, food, schooling. The immigrants animalistic behaviour is wholly their own responsibility.




MOD EDIT

Lets try and not say things like that. It serves no purpose other than to stereotype and generalize and makes tempers flare.
Slim
STAFF


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## Acorn (7 Nov 2005)

Holy merde. Some of you people need a real dose of reality (yes, I'm from the Redundancy Department of Redundancy, I'm here to help).

In any case: I also have some respect for the French military - but the FFL is most definitely NOT the type of force one would want to use for ACP. And I'm a Scotch drinker. That wine crap is for girls.

Oh SHF, get a grip. 

Piper, son, they come from France. They were born there, just as you were born in Canada and have Canadian citizenship by default. You've done nothing to earn that citizenship other than be the product of your parents' union (yeah, that probably grosses you out).

Finally, Dare, the "Ghetto Mentality" you speak of is a two way street. Like many countries in Europe the French needed workers after a couple of devastating wars. Of course those people weren't "French" (despite the addition of French North Africa as a Department of France and full citizenship for its residents). The bigotry runs deep there, as it does in Germany against Turk "guest workers." The fact that these people come from Muslim countries is coincidence, but a devestating coincidence. I doubt there is a coordinated plan, simply because one isn't needed. Even so, a very small group of agitators could take advantage of the situation - kind of like happens at hockey game riots or G7 meetings.


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## Dare (7 Nov 2005)

Acorn said:
			
		

> Piper, son, they come from France. They were born there, just as you were born in Canada and have Canadian citizenship by default. You've done nothing to earn that citizenship other than be the product of your parents' union (yeah, that probably grosses you out).


When does treason dissolve citizenship? 


> Finally, Dare, the "Ghetto Mentality" you speak of is a two way street. Like many countries in Europe the French needed workers after a couple of devastating wars. Of course those people weren't "French" (despite the addition of French North Africa as a Department of France and full citizenship for its residents). The bigotry runs deep there, as it does in Germany against Turk "guest workers." The fact that these people come from Muslim countries is coincidence, but a devestating coincidence. I doubt there is a coordinated plan, simply because one isn't needed. Even so, a very small group of agitators could take advantage of the situation - kind of like happens at hockey game riots or G7 meetings.


This is not a very small group of "agitators" and they are being coordinated, as has been reported by every source I have found. As it stands to reason, such things do not happen en mass spontaniously. In fact, the French Justice Minister has stated they are coordinating their efforts. They are being encouraged and directed by Islamic militants. So perhaps, it's not entirely a coincidence.. and if it were so, where are the poor Catholic car bombers and poor Buddhist car bombers? Surely not all of the "ghetto" dwelling guest workers are Muslim..

And I do not speak of "ghetto mentality" other than to say it is a smokescreen for the true mentality.. which is, ultimately, subjugation. Bigotry? Well, it would seem that there is a genuine threat in amongst this particular group of immigrant bigots, indeed. Considering they are upgrading to rifles now, and after 1,300 burnt cars.. no sign of a decrease.. I wouldn't be surprised to see this spread amongst other European countries. 

EDIT: Number correction.


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## Infanteer (7 Nov 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> When does treason dissolve citizenship?



Since when is rioting considered treason?   I didn't see the US filling boats up for Liberia following Watts, LA riots, or the latest breakdown of law and order in New Orleans.

Irregardless of who is committing these crimes, the "dirty Muslim" chanters (yes, I'm looking at you Daniel H) need to tone down the rhetoric - the quote about _"opening your mouth and removing all doubt"_ comes to mind.   France has a longstanding relationship with Mahgrib Arabs - I believe (and someone can confirm/refute this) that Algeria was actually _part_ of France (ie; not a separate colony) for about 100 years.   The reason for many poor Muslim Arabs living in France is beyond "multicultural dreamers with stupid immigration policies".

As well, from what news I've read, these youth are children of immigrants, which makes them French citizens full stop.   France cannot abscond from its responsibility by deporting people based upon their ancestry.   I'm second generation Canadian and I don't expect to be shot back to Denmark if I commit I crime.   Those that advocate treating these people any different from a Catholic Frank from Burgundy burning a bus and causing mayhem better re-examine their argument cause it stinks of "dirty Muslim" bias.

In general, my sentiments lie with GO!!! and Bruce - martial law and curfews; anyone causing a disturbance or breaking curfew will be detained and anyone resisting will be shot.   However, my only caution is to avoid giving the appearance of an "Intifada" - soldiers shooting youth will bring out mass crowds and garner support for the rabble rousers (despite the reasons why they were killed in the first place); this is how the First Intifada was successful and the Israelis were undone on the moral level.


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## clasper (7 Nov 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> This is not a very small group of "agitators" and they are being coordinated, as has been reported by every source I have found. As it stands to reason, such things do not happen en mass spontaniously. In fact, the French Justice Minister has stated they are coordinating their efforts.


As evidence of the coordination, I heard on the radio this morning that several kids that were arrested over the weekend told the cops that the riots would stop if Sarkozy (the Interior Minister) resigned.   Who knows if that would actually happen, but Sarkozy, de Villepin, and Chirac have shown themselves to be incompetent boobs over this affair.   Sarkozy and de Villepin's presidential ambitions are taking a big hit, and Chirac has cemented himself as a has-been.


> They are being encouraged and directed by Islamic militants. So perhaps, it's not entirely a coincidence.. and if it were so, where are the poor Catholic car bombers and poor Buddhist car bombers? Surely not all of the "ghetto" dwelling guest workers are Muslim..


About three weeks ago, we had a group of science fair winners from Seine-St.Denis here at the office as part of a community outreach program.   The aim is to get the kids excited about a career in science and technology.   We had to cancel the lunch we had planned for the middle of the day, because 9 of the 10 students were observing Ramadan.   Obviously this is just anectodal evidence, but the poor areas where the riots are going on are fairly homogenous culturally- not too many Catholics or Buddhists.



> And I do not speak of "ghetto mentality" other than to say it is a smokescreen for the true mentality.. which is, ultimately, subjugation. Bigotry? Well, it would seem that there is a genuine threat in amongst this particular group of immigrant bigots, indeed. Considering they are upgrading to rifles now, and after 1,300 burnt cars.. no sign of a decrease.. I wouldn't be surprised to see this spread amongst other European countries.


I would be quite surprised to see this spread to other European countries.   France has a long, proud tradition of civil unrest (we have one-day strikes here quite frequently for no reason), and unrest that turns violent- going all the way back to 1789.   The last unrest that turned this riotous was probably 1968, but there have been smaller riots since then.   For the last couple of New Year's Eves, there have been riots on the Champs Elysées.   Torching cars has been a New Year's tradition in Strasbourg for about 5 years, and has spread to other parts of the country.   Other European countries aren't quite so enthusiastic about their civil unrest, and are unlikely to follow suit.   Of the people that I've talked to about this issue, ex-pats are generally appalled at the violence, Europeans are generally bemused at the situation, and the French tend to chuckle at the lunkheads who burn down their own schools.

EDIT: I've just read that there have been small copycat car-torchings in Brussels, Berlin, and Bremen.  Colour me surprised.  Still, I doubt that the level of violence outside of France will come anywhere near the level inside...


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## tomahawk6 (7 Nov 2005)

The riots continue to spread - now almost 300 towns/cities. There now seems to be some jihadist involvement in the coordination of attacks. French police are interrogating kids as young as 13. If the police/CRS are afraid to go into immigrant neighborhoods they may not be able to restore order. One might wonder by the poor government response that they hope the rioters will get bored and just go home. If so I think they will be disappointed.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174745,00.html


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## Michael Dorosh (7 Nov 2005)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The riots continue to spread - now almost 300 towns/cities. There now seems to be some jihadist involvement in the coordination of attacks. French police are interrogating kids as young as 13. If the police/CRS are afraid to go into immigrant neighborhoods they may not be able to restore order. One might wonder by the poor government response that they hope the rioters will get bored and just go home. If so I think they will be disappointed.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174745,00.html



Wow, FOX news interprets this as a jihadist conspiracy....I'm stunned, really....


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## geo (7 Nov 2005)

Hmmm....
Who was it that once said: 
"The french are revolting!"... to whit some other fella replied: "Yes, aren't they!"

Must say that the knee jerk reaction of some posts to date have left me to wonder why certain individuals waded in, neck deep, on issues that are outside of our canadian jurisdiction while relying on some dubious reports from dubious television networks.

Excluding Clasper who is in Paris, no one here is... over there.

Islamic bashing and french bashing suggests to me that some need a reality check.


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## Kirkhill (7 Nov 2005)

> Since when is rioting considered treason?   I didn't see the US filling boats up for Liberia following Watts, LA riots, or the latest breakdown of law and order in New Orleans.



Hmm. Not such a bad idea maybe.

Oh for the good old days of Botany Bay, Van Diemens Land and the Virginia Colony.   Transportation was such an attractive solution - we got rid of the pests, didn't have to pay for their upkeep, in fact they were productive and paid taxes to keep them there and none of the moral qualms about hanging those disagreeable rabbit poachers and other treasonous wretches.   We really should have tried harder to keep them in the fold rather than turning the prisons over to the inmates.....

Hindsight is always so clear..... > ^-^


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## Michael Dorosh (7 Nov 2005)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Hmm. Not such a bad idea maybe.
> 
> Oh for the good old days of Botany Bay, Van Diemens Land and the Virginia Colony.   Transportation was such an attractive solution - we got rid of the pests, didn't have to pay for their upkeep, in fact they were productive and paid taxes to keep them there



Until they got tired of you taxing the crap out of their tea....its only a temporary solution.


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## Kirkhill (7 Nov 2005)

Oh I don't know, a couple of hundred years wasn't too bad a run....then we got another century out of the Antipodes. 

Besides somebody had to pay to keep the Indians at bay and the French out of Scotland.


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## Pencil Tech (7 Nov 2005)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Oh I don't know, a couple of hundred years wasn't too bad a run....then we got another century out of the Antipodes.
> 
> Besides somebody had to pay to keep the Indians at bay and the French out of Scotland.



The problem with that approach is that "we", as you like to say, also sent the Scots out of Scotland, viz.the highland clearances.


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## Kirkhill (7 Nov 2005)

> The problem with that approach is that "we", as you like to say, also sent the Scots out of Scotland, viz.the highland clearances.



But there you have it.  I was born a lowlander.


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## paracowboy (7 Nov 2005)

the French have a long tradition of dealing with Islam, and with civil unrest, going back centuries. As much as I despise certain of thier policies, and dislike their "take" on Democracy, I'm sure the government there will eventually reach a solution. 
As for us, unless we actually have first-hand sources other than the media, I'd suggest we sit back and watch. Maybe we can learn what to do, and what not to, should similar situations arise here.


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## Michael Dorosh (7 Nov 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> the French have a long tradition of dealing with Islam, and with civil unrest, going back centuries. As much as I despise certain of thier policies, and dislike their "take" on Democracy, I'm sure the government there will eventually reach a solution.
> As for us, unless we actually have first-hand sources other than the media, I'd suggest we sit back and watch. Maybe we can learn what to do, and what not to, should similar situations arise here.



Holy cow, paracowboy, your post reads like a love letter to Pierre Trudeau...I guess it really is time we all admitted his multiculturalism policies have really paid off, in contrast to France's policies, huh? ;D


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## BKells (7 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> What you have here (in france) is a perfect example of immigration policies run amok.
> 
> Left leaning parties undertake to allow as many immigrants into a country as possible - and then tell them to keep this policy in effect, they will have to vote left! This is not a new idea - NY city politicians did it to the Irish as they stepped off the boat in the 1800s - handing out soup and handbills.
> 
> ...



Wow.  Yeah.. beacuse NY City politicians have total control over national immigration policies! Maybe you should turn off "Gans of New York" and actually read up on what you're talking about.


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## GO!!! (7 Nov 2005)

BKells said:
			
		

> Wow.   Yeah.. beacuse NY City politicians have total control over national immigration policies! Maybe you should turn off "Gans of New York" and actually read up on what you're talking about.



I've never seen "Gans of NY" or the similarly named Leo DiCaprio flick. So I'm not sure what you can't understand.

The importing of sympathetic voters is not a new idea, many nations and organisations have praticipated right back to the Greeks - and "origional" democracy.

France has a generous social system, and the largest government (highest proportion of employed citizens) in the world. It also has a strong labour movement, and many of the political parties focus on what we would consider "left" leaning policies (especially in the area of agriculture and subsidisation). The immigration policies have always been difficult for foreigners trying to gain citizenship, mostly as a metho of preventing said individuals from taking advantage of the social system. The areas that are experiencing rioting right now are largely filled with arab and african immigrants who lack the skills for gainful employment and the full french citizenship that would ease their living conditions. They are disenfranchised, and poor - and there are lots of them.

While NY city politicians did not ever have control over the immigration policies, they did have an abundance of immigrants who believed that they could work to build a better life for themselves. They were (in the 1800s) primarily Irish, Scottish and to a certain extent, western europeans (Dutch, German, French, Portugese Italian etc.) They were agrarian (that means farmers) and wanted to farm. The US had policies to encourage such immigration as they recognised that a strong rural class with land and the right to vote would expand US power and influence on the international stage with a food surplus, english speaking population and manpower for military purposes.

While the immigrants to the US in the 1800s sought to vote and work, and had the prerequisites for both, the illegal immigrants to france now are often illiterate, skill-less, disenfranchised and thus unemplyable in the current context. They are also not economic migrants in the truest sense of the word. They were often not starving or overly poorly treated where they came from - as many of the NY immigrants were (Irish potato famine) they just wanted to live in a free western democracy, with special priviliges so that they would not have to change any of the behaviours that made their countries of origin so miserable in the first place. Now that there are enough of them, their countries problems have  come with them. 

If you doubt the "ghetto" mentality, it exists here in Canada as well - would you walk through Dundas + Jarvis on a friday night alone? Would you fear the descendants of Scottish  and  french immigrants - or someone else? 

Is any more reading in order?  :


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## Brad Sallows (7 Nov 2005)

The main lesson to learn from this is the importance of not pursuing or supporting policies that divide the population into welfare providers and welfare consumers, particularly if the division can be seen to follow cultural lines.


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## paracowboy (7 Nov 2005)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> The main lesson to learn from this is the importance of not pursuing or supporting policies that divide the population into welfare providers and welfare consumers, particularly if the division can be seen to follow cultural lines.


exactly. And while we haven't done this to the extent that France has, we are trying hard to catch up. And as for Trudeau ever having a good idea... :


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## daniel h. (7 Nov 2005)

daniel h. said:
			
		

> Well, racially the rioters are certainly not European...though Northern Ireland and the Balkans are nothing to be proud of, it does appear that Muslims and Africans have a higher rate of violent crime as per statistics compared with Europeans. Culturally as well, they are very different which when added to the economic factors is enough to set things off.
> 
> Anybody that actually thinks these people should be "integrated" are missing the point. Minorities are a threat to the majority. France is right to not want these people ***** **** **** ****--but the solution was never letting them come to France in the first place--forget the imperial ties.
> 
> ...




Fine...all I meant to say was that some diversity is not the end of the world, as we always had some, but after a certain point it becomes more of an issue. If the question is "all or nothing", all diversity or none, then to stay French the French have to put themselves first.


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## GO!!! (7 Nov 2005)

Daniel and Brad both have excellent points, which lead to the (my) solution for the disturbances that france is now experiencing.

There can be no identifiable cultures within any sort of government that relies on mass participation. To truly be a "nation" as opposed to a "state", there must be a measure of cultural homogenity. In other words, newcomers must be assimilated, not encouraged to keep their cultural idiosyncraties with them in a new geographic area. By marginalising themselves, the minorities become, by definition, inward looking, and neglect to participate (or seek to participate) in the state that they are a part of. 

Given that many of these migrants are migrating due to uncomfortable conditions at their points of origin, why would any sane state permit these conditions to be re-created in a new geographical location? The same people, with the same attitudes bring --- SURPRISE! the same problems. In the case of the french migrants - poverty, violence and crime.

If these migrants were 1) cleared for entry into the country before being permitted to work, drive, obtain basic health care services, rent a dwelling or obtain credit (Australia is a leader in this area) 2) Settled in a manner which would prevent ghettoization (Canada has this policy, but it is not enforced) 3) forced to integrate, with a concentration on employment, knowledge of and participation in their assigned comunities, payment of taxes and confirm it all with ongoing citizenship tests over a period of years. Confirm the works of it with a "3 strikes your deported" policy, and we will successfully integrate all who really want to live here.

There is no excuse for the illegal immigration that has taken place, it is a testament to the laziness and apathy of us, the voters, to inspire governmnet.

The problems france has are not here yet. We have a strong economy, everyone willing to work (or move to find work) has a job which will feed them. Economics are cyclical though, and we will find ourselves in the "french predicament" soon enough.

Thoughts?


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## kcdist (7 Nov 2005)

All I know is that we had better attain our immigration goal of 1% of our population annually (as per Liberal policy) or our economy will soon collapse. Why, just look at Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland with their 0% population growth. 

Sarcasm aside, the requirement for increased immigration quotas is a fraud.

Does anyone wonder why we as a society are so keen on granting full licences to third-world doctors now working in Canada as taxi drivers? A better effort would be to pay them and send them back to their country of origin so that they may provide desperately needed medical care in the countries that paid to train them. I can think of no greater arrogance than for a country like Canada to rape developing countries of their best and brightest trained professionals so that our waiting times for a family doctor may be shortened. 

Recently, the Toronto Star ran an article about preparing the Greater Toronto Area for millions of new immigrants over the next few decades. Ever been to Mexico City? Bangkok? Two words comes to mind: pollution and slums. I don't live in Toronto, but I've been there during the endless smog alerts. Now try adding five million more people. Oh, they'll fit all right....but.....Why?

The Liberals confuse me so. On one hand, Canada's most famous, least funny comic, Rick Mercer, beats us over the head with the infamous One Ton Challenge. Tells us how we must all conserve. How, pray tell, can composting my orange peels and driving a Smart Car counteract millions of new immigrants? 

The apologists state that we're all immigrants. Does that mean we therefore lack the intelligence to know when enough is enough? Examples of excessive immigration without integration leads to riots like in France, and years ago in Great Britain. But I say it is the environment that trumps all other arguments.

(And for the record, I fully support reasonable, pre-screened refugee immigration)


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## geo (7 Nov 2005)

France has some other problems
Bit of a caste system that these North African immigrants are having an impossible time busting out of... they've been encouraged to live in these suburban communities that have become, in many respects, ghettos of the poor, the immigrants and their kin with no prospect for the future.


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## Dare (7 Nov 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Since when is rioting considered treason?  I didn't see the US filling boats up for Liberia following Watts, LA riots, or the latest breakdown of law and order in New Orleans.


It is not a matter of simply being a riot, is it? 


> Irregardless of who is committing these crimes, the "dirty Muslim" chanters (yes, I'm looking at you Daniel H) need to tone down the rhetoric - the quote about _"opening your
> _


_
For the record, I am not chanting "dirty Muslim" anything.



			As well, from what news I've read, these youth are children of immigrants, which makes them French citizens full stop.  France cannot abscond from its responsibility by deporting people based upon their ancestry.  I'm second generation Canadian and I don't expect to be shot back to Denmark if I commit I crime.  Those that advocate treating these people any different from a Catholic Frank from Burgundy burning a bus and causing mayhem better re-examine their argument cause it stinks of "dirty Muslim" bias.
		
Click to expand...

I would say the difference is that you identifty yourself as Canadian and are not violently hostile to what Canada is. For instance, the Kadr family. I certainly think is a candidate for dissolution of citizenship. They certainly bare no loyalty to this country, and only come to destroy it. Why must we suffer the Kadr's of the world? Just so we can claim multicultural tolerance? There are many peaceful Muslims who live in Canada that don't want these extremists here either. 



			In general, my sentiments lie with GO!!! and Bruce - martial law and curfews; anyone causing a disturbance or breaking curfew will be detained and anyone resisting will be shot.  However, my only caution is to avoid giving the appearance of an "Intifada" - soldiers shooting youth will bring out mass crowds and garner support for the rabble rousers (despite the reasons why they were killed in the first place); this is how the First Intifada was successful and the Israelis were undone on the moral level.
		
Click to expand...

Well, you seem very hostile to the idea of deportation, but shooting them is a much better solution? We both know that there will be many resisters. I am sure that France will attempt to be as non lethal as possible before choosing that line. Remember that France has been close to electing (along with other European nations) those that wish to put far more extreme clamps on immigration. I would say this could weigh heavily on the electorates choices._


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## Acorn (8 Nov 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> When does treason dissolve citizenship?


Civil unrest is usually only regarded as treason when it is advocating the overthrow of the exisiting regime. 



> This is not a very small group of "agitators" and they are being coordinated, as has been reported by every source I have found. As it stands to reason, such things do not happen en mass spontaniously. In fact, the French Justice Minister has stated they are coordinating their efforts. They are being encouraged and directed by Islamic militants. So perhaps, it's not entirely a coincidence.. and if it were so, where are the poor Catholic car bombers and poor Buddhist car bombers? Surely not all of the "ghetto" dwelling guest workers are Muslim..



Actually these things DO happen spontaneously, but they certainly don't happen for no reason. They can be, and often are, steered by small groups of agitators. You are entirely missing the forest for the trees (and the Catholic and Buddist straw man isn't worthy of comment). 



> And I do not speak of "ghetto mentality" other than to say it is a smokescreen for the true mentality.. which is, ultimately, subjugation. Bigotry? Well, it would seem that there is a genuine threat in amongst this particular group of immigrant bigots, indeed. Considering they are upgrading to rifles now, and after 1,300 burnt cars.. no sign of a decrease.. I wouldn't be surprised to see this spread amongst other European countries.
> 
> EDIT: Number correction.



I don't expect to change your mind. It was made up long ago, if your posts are any indication.


----------



## daniel h. (8 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Daniel and Brad both have excellent points, which lead to the (my) solution for the disturbances that france is now experiencing.
> 
> There can be no identifiable cultures within any sort of government that relies on mass participation. To truly be a "nation" as opposed to a "state", there must be a measure of cultural homogenity. In other words, newcomers must be assimilated, not encouraged to keep their cultural idiosyncraties with them in a new geographic area. By marginalising themselves, the minorities become, by definition, inward looking, and neglect to participate (or seek to participate) in the state that they are a part of.
> 
> ...




I think it is becoming quite obvious (and is even admitted b y many elites) that massive open immigration was not about "creating great nations", it was about eliminating them. Of course it is bad to emphasize differences, but our government is paying groups to even pretend to be different. This is no accident. Most polls for over 30 years opposed immigration.

I agree with much of what you siay, but race mixing is the inevitable result of integration. How many self-respecting Europeans would support this? Of course convincing Europeans they don't exist as a distinct people was probably the whole point. That we are born "racist" (as opposed to who? :) and we are racist if we want to preserve ourselves.

Don't get me started on Toronto or Vancouver.


----------



## daniel h. (8 Nov 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> France has some other problems
> Bit of a caste system that these North African immigrants are having an impossible time busting out of... they've been encouraged to live in these suburban communities that have become, in many respects, ghettos of the poor, the immigrants and their kin with no prospect for the future.




Kind of like the countries they came from.


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## daniel h. (8 Nov 2005)

kcdist said:
			
		

> All I know is that we had better attain our immigration goal of 1% of our population annually (as per Liberal policy) or our economy will soon collapse. Why, just look at Ireland, Sweden and Switzerland with their 0% population growth.
> 
> Sarcasm aside, the requirement for increased immigration quotas is a fraud.
> 
> ...




I should add there were riots even in the 1980s in France, and Britain had some not years ago, but a few weeks ago. Belgium, Germany, Holland and Denmark have also had riots. Norway and Sweden have gang rape. Canada has not much so far, but the United States had rape and murder in the aftrermath of Hurricane Katrina. Australia, New Zealand have there share of problems. South Africa and Zimbabwe have rape and murder.

Draw your own conclusions as to the pattern here.


----------



## winchable (8 Nov 2005)

Putting a lock on this for tonight,
Issues here..


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## Infanteer (9 Nov 2005)

Okay, this one is getting reopened.

First things first:



			
				daniel h. said:
			
		

> Kind of like the countries they came from.



If there is anymore comments like this which don't add any value to the thread and take swipes at other people(s), you'll find yourself climbing up the warning ladder real quick.


----------



## Infanteer (9 Nov 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> It is not a matter of simply being a riot, is it?



That's all I've seen so for.   Burning vehicles, destruction of public property, and confrontations with police isn't really treason, is it?   We've seen it before in Canada (remember Vancouver after the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup?) - maybe not to the extent of France, but definately within the same order of magnitude (general unrest).   Unless you're going to prove thier is some sort of AQ generated plot to destroy France from the inside, spare us the conspiracy theories.



> For the record, I am not chanting "dirty Muslim" anything.



For the record, you will notice I said "Daniel H" and not "Dare".



> I would say the difference is that you identifty yourself as Canadian and are not violently hostile to what Canada is.   For instance, the Kadr family. I certainly think is a candidate for dissolution of citizenship. They certainly bare no loyalty to this country, and only come to destroy it. Why must we suffer the Kadr's of the world? Just so we can claim multicultural tolerance? There are many peaceful Muslims who live in Canada that don't want these extremists here either.



Well, being violently hostile to the Canadian government is covered under the CCC; Section 46 to be exact.   If I or any other Canadian citizen commits the offence, then it is Canada's duty to deal with it.   I do not see the logic in your differentiation and you seem to have sidestepped an answer - if I, who am now loyal to Canada and identify myself as a Canadian suddenly become violently hostile to it, do I as second generation deserve deportation for my crimes?   How about the other side of my family which happens to be 5th generation?   What is appropriate for deporting people who really have nowhere legally to be deported to?   1st?   2nd?   5th generation?   If you are born in Canada and are a Canadian citizen, you are Canada's problem - it is not like the American government figured they should deport John Walker Lind when they captured him.   They tried, convicted, and imprisoned him within America because he was an American citizen; his time or "generation" in America was irrelevent to the case.

Besides, do we really want to send them back to Pakistan or where ever they happen to be from?   If you are an enemy to Canada, sending you back to the arms of your enemies isn't the best thing to do, no?   Keep your friends close and your enemies closer seems apt.   If the Khadr children (if they are Canadian) are indeed guilty (we should let due process and not the National Post decide that) then I'm more than happy of giving them cold cells and letting Mr Monkhouse take care of them.   If the parent, as a naturalized Canadian, is indicted of treason then I see good cause to revoke citizenship - Ms Khadr can head back to Palestine at any time.



> Well, you seem very hostile to the idea of deportation, but shooting them is a much better solution? We both know that there will be many resisters. I am sure that France will attempt to be as non lethal as possible before choosing that line. Remember that France has been close to electing (along with other European nations) those that wish to put far more extreme clamps on immigration. I would say this could weigh heavily on the electorates choices.



It seems that martial law has been declared in some parts of France and the police have stepped it up a notch.   I'm against the idea of deportation because it seems foolhardy to deport somebody when their birthplace and legal residence has been Canada.   Backing up martial law with lethal force, if required, is appropriate to me in order to preserve Peace, Order and Good Government.   It is up to Canada to deal with Canadian citizens in a manner consistent with the rule of law.

By the way, "France Burning" seems to be an overstatement.   They had some footage on the news at the Eiffel Tower that showed tourists doing the tourist thing and all things normal in metro Paris.   "France Burning" seems to be the same as "America Drowning" during Hurricane Katrina - it's probably a bit of an overstatement of what's going on on the ground.


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## Infanteer (10 Nov 2005)

Crap - sorry guys.  I re-opened this one, fired away and forgot to hit the unlock button.


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## clasper (10 Nov 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> By the way, "France Burning" seems to be an overstatement.   They had some footage on the news at the Eiffel Tower that showed tourists doing the tourist thing and all things normal in metro Paris.   "France Burning" seems to be the same as "America Drowning" during Hurricane Katrina - it's probably a bit of an overstatement of what's going on on the ground.



I can certainly attest to that.  I live in the 15th arrondissement, and I work in the suburbs south of town.  I haven't seen any evidence of the riots personally.  A buddy of mine (who doesn't pay too much attention to the news) didn't know there were riots going on until his Mum phoned him last weekend from Saskatoon to ask if he was OK.


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## Brad Sallows (10 Nov 2005)

>We've seen it before in Canada (remember Vancouver after the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup?) - maybe not to the extent of France, but definately within the same order of magnitude (general unrest). 


"Order of magnitude" = "factor of 10".  Did Canucks fans really burn over 500 cars?


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## Infanteer (10 Nov 2005)

No, but they didn't just march in protest (an order less) but they didn't overthrow the government and send the aristocracy to the guillotine either (an order more).  Maybe greater in order on a scale of "rioting" but not when going across the entire spectrum of "unruly public".  Like I guessed (and Clasper backed up from the ground) I think the riots have been blown out of context.


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## Brad Sallows (10 Nov 2005)

Out of context?

Try to imagine the downtown east side as a "no-go" area for police and anyone who doesn't look like a resident.

I don't see any comparison, within several orders of magnitude, with one evening of alcohol- and testosterone-fuelled hooliganism within a few city blocks.

[Also: "problems" reported in 300 cities/communities in France.  Maybe some people think: "Oh, France is a populous nation.  That's probably not a lot of disruption."  But France has not quite twice the population of Canada.  I can't imagine disruptions in 150 cities/communities/neighbourhoods across Canada.]


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## Infanteer (10 Nov 2005)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Out of context?



Just like New Orleans became a war-zone - but America wasn't "Burning", was it?

Okay, you win on the magnitude debate - us snarly Canucks fan's don't quite hold the candle to the impoverished French - maybe the Guns'n'Roses fans in Vancouver would be a better example?


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## Brad Sallows (10 Nov 2005)

The New Orleans flooding isn't really a good comparison either.  Although some of the commentary on what has been happening in France might be hyperbolic, the numbers of vehicles and buildings burnt seem to be based on official figures.  Much of what came out of New Orleans through the media was just pulled out of someone's fundament.


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## Infanteer (10 Nov 2005)

Is burning buses the only measure of the magnitude though?  How about "number of human fatalities?".  If that is so, then I think it brings the French Riots back down to Earth (and out of the realm of a nation ready to tear itself apart)


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## teddy49 (11 Nov 2005)

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html

This is a pretty decent if long article that takes a look at some of the problems that seemed to lead into all these troubles.  Note that the article was written in 2002.  After reading it I'm surprised that this didn't happen a few years ago.


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## a_majoor (11 Nov 2005)

An exerpt from National Review:

http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg200511110818.asp



> The Islamic leadership in France would clearly and dearly love this to be a Muslim riot. They could then stop it and become true Left Bank Arafats, able to fire up a rent-a-mob whenever convenient and thereby shake down the government for one concession after another. That's why the French government is so desperate to prevent the imams from becoming middlemen. If the riots are stopped by Islamic clerics, they will become Islamic riots â â€ even though they didn't start as that. And once the conflict is Islamified, the conservative Nostradamus scenarios kick in and we can all get ready for talk of "two-state solutions," the need to make Paris an "international city," and so forth.
> 
> Their being Muslim surely contributes to these kids' invisibility, but French racism and snobbery is more sweeping. Unlike in America, where snobbery, racism and anti-Muslim bigotry can all operate independently of each other, in France they're always linked in a menage a trios. If a resume arrives at the patisserie with the name Hamid on it, it gets trashed without the recipient wondering whether he was unfair to a Muslim, a black, an immigrant or even a French citizen.
> 
> ...


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## Kirkhill (15 Nov 2005)

This may explain why Clasper and the other chaps in France aren't seeing too many troubles:



> France faces tough choices and, unlike Baghdad, in Paris you can't even talk about them honestly. *As Jean-Claude Dassier, director-general of the French news station LCI, told a broadcasters' conference in Amsterdam, he has been playing down the riots on the following grounds: "Politics in France is heading to the Right and I don't want Right-wing politicians back in second or even first place because we showed burning cars on television."*



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/11/15/do1502.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/15/ixnewstop.html

Courtesy of Mark Steyn and the Daily Telegraph.

I wonder how many other News Directors see the world in similar terms?


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## clasper (15 Nov 2005)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> This may explain why Clasper and the other chaps in France aren't seeing too many troubles:
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2005/11/15/do1502.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/15/ixnewstop.html
> 
> ...



Just to see how much LCI is downplaying the riots, here's the website: http://www.lci.fr/  At the moment, there's a burning car front and center, and the first headline is about de Villepin's first visit to les banlieues.  So they're certainly not ignoring the story- they're just not amping it up as much as FoxNews and their jihadist conspiracy theories (it's actually become something of a game at work over the lunch table- how many worried relatives from North America have asked you if you're OK?)

The fact that journalism today is no longer the paragon of objectivity that they once claimed to be should be no surprise to anyone.  This is why it's important to read Le Monde _and_ Figaro (as well as Libération occasionally for a good chuckle...)


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## Cdn Blackshirt (15 Nov 2005)

Looks like Kirkhill beat me to the admission by the French Media czar.

The only additional piece of information that is interesting is that they believe the German media is doing the exact same thing.  Next door in their biggest trading partner they have a declared state of emergency and there has been almost zero coverage.




M.   ???


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## TCBF (16 Nov 2005)

I can't help thinking that if somebody tried burning 5,000 cars in Alberta, every tenth car would have it's owner standing on the roof holding a fine piece of craftsmanship designed by John Moses Browning.

But, I suppose collaboration takes many forms.

Tom


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## GO!!! (16 Nov 2005)

For crowds, I would prefer my piece of precision machinery from Luciano Benelli  >


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## TCBF (16 Nov 2005)

I can't believe none of the car-burners have been nulled by the car owners.  I guess the only real men left in France are rioting.  The Germans may have weakened the French national gene pool much more than expected.

Tom


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## Kirkhill (18 Nov 2005)

Good news.  BBC is reporting that France is back to normal.



> French violence 'back to normal'
> 
> The violence has cost $230m, insurers say
> French police say levels of violence in France have returned to normal, following three weeks of unrest by urban youths across the country.
> ...




http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4445428.stm


To be fair to clasper - this may explain a certain degree of insouciance, or sang froid on the part of the French.  On a normal night 100 cars go up in flames in France.

On the other hand here in Vancouver our "youth" take them for joyrides.


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## TCBF (18 Nov 2005)

I am still amazed 9000 cars were burned and not a single arsonist got slotted for his troubles.  Or: are these termites burning their own cars and stiffing the rich white insurance companies for a few thousand francs?

Tom


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## clasper (18 Nov 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> are these termites burning their own cars and stiffing the rich white insurance companies for a few thousand francs?
> 
> Tom


I think there's a lot of that going on.  A buddy of mine accidentally broke his rear window a couple of weeks ago, and then had his car broken into and his GPS stolen a couple of days ago.  He said the insurance process was pretty bureaucratic (this is France, after all) but it was also much more forgiving than back home (he's Chinese) or in the US.  No fights to explain how this happened, or why insurance should cover it- just fill out this mound of paperwork, take your loaner Renault, and we'll have it fixed for you in a couple of weeks.



> Good news.  BBC is reporting that France is back to normal.


Oddly enough,this is following along with the weather.  We've had a very warm fall, but it finally started to turn colder a week ago (when the riots started to peter out).  Last night was our first night below freezing, and the disaffected youths decided to stay inside.


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## Jungle (18 Nov 2005)

clasper said:
			
		

> Oddly enough,this is following along with the weather.   We've had a very warm fall, but it finally started to turn colder a week ago (when the riots started to peter out).   Last night was our first night below freezing, and the disaffected youths decided to stay inside.


That is called "The cold Peace" !!!


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## GO!!! (18 Nov 2005)

clasper said:
			
		

> Oddly enough,this is following along with the weather.   We've had a very warm fall, but it finally started to turn colder a week ago (when the riots started to peter out).   Last night was our first night below freezing, and the disaffected youths decided to stay inside.



I guess they will just have to retire to their government supplied housing, and draw their (highest in the world) welfare cheques until spring, when they will undoubtedly feel the need to "outwardly express their rage and indignation".

"you want a job tough guy?" - "bienvenue a Legion Etranger"  - this should solve all of their young problems, an outlet for their energy, a job, opportunity to travel - I think I've solved France's problems - just take all of the people that will fight out of the country!


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## paracowboy (18 Nov 2005)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> I think I've solved France's problems - just take all of the people that will fight out of the country!


that happened in the mid-forties when the Wermacht were driven out.

That's right...I went there.  ;D


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## GO!!! (18 Nov 2005)

Why did the French plant trees along the Champs de Elysses? (spelling, I know)

So the Germans could march in the shade!

Why did they build the Arc de Triomphe?

So the germans would'nt have to do it themselves!


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## paracowboy (18 Nov 2005)

Thank you, folks! You've been a great crowd! We're here all week. Remember to tip your serving staff.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.


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## GO!!! (18 Nov 2005)

*Minister says polygamy to blame for riots*
*PARIS, Nov. 16 (UPI) -- France's employment minister, Gerard Larcher, blames 20 nights of rioting in the country on African Muslim immigrants' polygamy. 

Speaking to reporters, Larcher said large polygamous families sometimes led to anti-social behavior among youths who lacked a father figure, making employers wary of hiring ethnic minorities, the Financial Times reported. 

While polygamy is illegal in France, visas were granted to family members of immigrants until 1993, when visas were banned for more than one spouse. Now, government officials estimate there are 10,000-20,000 polygamous families in France, most from North and sub-Saharan African countries such as Algeria, Mali and Senegal, where the practice is legal. 

The nightly fires and running battles with police throughout the country have been blamed on high unemployment and poverty in immigrant neighborhoods, but Larcher said immigrants had to take some responsibility. 

"Since part of society displays this anti-social behavior, it is not surprising that some of them have difficulties finding work," he said. * 
source http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20051116-110739-7141r

So two influential French politicians are sitting around, stitching white flags for the army and chatting;

" hmm, the immigrants we were too gutless to oppose have stopped rioting - lets call them bastards and insult their mothers - that should smooth things over! "

Brilliant.


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## Zartan (19 Nov 2005)

Hey, Hey! This is France - they include the tip in the bill!

But while you're here, je voudrais les chardonnay, monsieur. S'il vous plait?

And now for the aftermath! HOoRay 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/upi/?feed=TopNews&article=UPI-1-20051119-12593300-bc-france-ethnicstats.xml
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-11-16T102246Z_01_SCH575800_RTRUKOC_0_US-FRANCE-RIOTS-POLYGAMY.xml


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## Slim (19 Nov 2005)

Zartan said:
			
		

> Hey, Hey! This is France - they include the tip in the bill!
> 
> But while you're here, je voudrais les chardonnay, monsieur. S'il vous plait?
> 
> ...



Well...Northern Ireland from the '50's to the late '90's was much much worse. This kind of seems like little league compared to some trouble spots around the globe.

Cheers

Slim


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## Zartan (20 Nov 2005)

Definately - I agree entirely. But, I think there is potential for it to have become oh so much worse. One may never now if a terror cell was activating during the riots, for instance - whip up the rioters, commit more extreme acts of violence, etc. To me, France got off lucky, or so it would seem - there have been deadlier riots over soccer games, concerts, and championships than this. It was managed to be limited mostly to automobile immolation, and it would seem that no real conflict has arose between the imigrants and the Frenchmen, just the riots.

However, much can happen with the passing of time, and much will. I don't believe it is over yet - the fire is dead, but embers remain alight. While most will fade in the coming days and weeks, I feel that these events may have influensed some members of the French Muslim community towards a far more dangerous path. We shall see.


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## 1feral1 (20 Nov 2005)

Zartan said:
			
		

> I don't believe it is over yet - the fire is dead, but embers remain alight. While most will fade in the coming days and weeks, I feel that these events may have influensed some members of the French Muslim community towards a far more dangerous path. We shall see.



Not only in France, as this has had shockwaves sent even to the muslim ghettos (sorry but thats what they are) of western Sydney and also in in Melbourne. The continuing growing resentment of our government by many muslims, the recent terrorist gang arrests (this has sent many muslim youths and others almost into a feeding frenzy against the government- many local clerics are warning us that they cannot stop this turning tide should the government carry out more arrests and continue to enforce the new anti-terr laws), and finally, the serious beginning of a lack of tolerance by maistream Christian Aussies, should they (the extremists) take their anger one step further (we just had a very close call and were just lucky this time).   Lets hope we can keep this growing hatred of the west and western values from growing into some kind of an nightmare on our own soil. Sadly our PM still says that an attack on Australia and the murder of innocent Australians is inevitable. Thats scarey!

Cheers,

Wes


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## 54/102 CEF (20 Nov 2005)

A friend just came back from a quick trip to Paris

He said the car burning is a French Ritual - been at a lower level for years

The scam is

Finance a car

Burn it before the end of the year

get a cheque - 

Disappear

Insurance companies can`t blanket refuse certain ethnic origins.........

I imagine "insurance invesitgoator" is a growth trend for 2nd career types


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## Dare (22 Nov 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> That's all I've seen so for.  Burning vehicles, destruction of public property, and confrontations with police isn't really treason, is it?  We've seen it before in Canada (remember Vancouver after the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup?) - maybe not to the extent of France, but definately within the same order of magnitude (general unrest).  Unless you're going to prove thier is some sort of AQ generated plot to destroy France from the inside, spare us the conspiracy theories.


Have you heard what these Generic Rioters are chanting and saying amongst eachother as they Generically Riot Due To "Economic Conditions And Because White French People Are Racist(tm)"? It indeed does sound like a Jihadist conspiracy theory. Just not so obvious to those who perpetuate the idea that they are almost legitimate in their behaviour.


> For the record, you will notice I said "Daniel H" and not "Dare".


You used plural, so I just wanted to set the record straight either way. No worries.


> Well, being violently hostile to the Canadian government is covered under the CCC; Section 46 to be exact.  If I or any other Canadian citizen commits the offence, then it is Canada's duty to deal with it.  I do not see the logic in your differentiation and you seem to have sidestepped an answer - if I, who am now loyal to Canada and identify myself as a Canadian suddenly become violently hostile to it, do I as second generation deserve deportation for my crimes?  How about the other side of my family which happens to be 5th generation?  What is appropriate for deporting people who really have nowhere legally to be deported to?  1st?  2nd?  5th generation?  If you are born in Canada and are a Canadian citizen, you are Canada's problem - it is not like the American government figured they should deport John Walker Lind when they captured him.  They tried, convicted, and imprisoned him within America because he was an American citizen; his time or "generation" in America was irrelevent to the case.


If you are violently hostile to the country you are in, and bare loyalties to a foreign power, perhaps deportation is a civilized remedy. As for 5th generation, I don't know. I can't say I have a solution for everything, but I don't think that getting locked in a stalemate akin to the West Bank is a good idea. For any country.


> Besides, do we really want to send them back to Pakistan or where ever they happen to be from?  If you are an enemy to Canada, sending you back to the arms of your enemies isn't the best thing to do, no?  Keep your friends close and your enemies closer seems apt.  If the Khadr children (if they are Canadian) are indeed guilty (we should let due process and not the National Post decide that) then I'm more than happy of giving them cold cells and letting Mr Monkhouse take care of them.  If the parent, as a naturalized Canadian, is indicted of treason then I see good cause to revoke citizenship - Ms Khadr can head back to Palestine at any time.


Well that seems to have been the former plan of British Intelligence, pre-bombing. I suspect that they may have realized that the vehicle through which they sought entry into the world of Islamic fanaticism has been overrun by quantity and determination. Shortly after the bombing occured, dozens of Islamic websites were destroyed. Policies change. Keeping your enemies close is one thing, but allowing them to plot and infiltrate in your midst, is another. The UK disallowed Germans to immigrate to their country during WW2. Perhaps there will be another shift. Letting our enemies mass is not always a bad idea. Especially since we are so much better on that plane.

B.T.W, painting with that broad-brush (as you like to call it). I don't read the National Post. And "due process" doesn't always meet justice. That is indeed why the media is a useful tool. Sometimes "due process" needs some public scrutiny and input.


> It seems that martial law has been declared in some parts of France and the police have stepped it up a notch.  I'm against the idea of deportation because it seems foolhardy to deport somebody when their birthplace and legal residence has been Canada.  Backing up martial law with lethal force, if required, is appropriate to me in order to preserve Peace, Order and Good Government.  It is up to Canada to deal with Canadian citizens in a manner consistent with the rule of law.


I think the question is, does a person declaring loyalty to a state or nation that we are at war with constitute a renunciation of citizenship? If not, why not? Considering that the affinity for actually enforcing treason and sedition laws is not common place there must be a better method than getting into the "rock throwing" stalemate with people that hate the country they are in.


> By the way, "France Burning" seems to be an overstatement.  They had some footage on the news at the Eiffel Tower that showed tourists doing the tourist thing and all things normal in metro Paris.  "France Burning" seems to be the same as "America Drowning" during Hurricane Katrina - it's probably a bit of an overstatement of what's going on on the ground.


Certainly, but I didn't pick the title.  Perhaps it could be changed to, "Proportionally small bits of France are Burning! But it's way bigger than most riots!"

Frankly, though, if this occured in Canada, I doubt that there would be the same responses I see in here. 

(*Waiting for the inevitable "It Can't Happen Here!"*)


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## clasper (22 Nov 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> Have you heard what these Generic Rioters are chanting and saying amongst eachother as they Generically Riot Due To "Economic Conditions And Because White French People Are Racist(tm)"? It indeed does sound like a Jihadist conspiracy theory.


And I'll turn that question around: have you heard what the rioters are chanting and saying amongst each other?  The media reporting on this issue has been spotty and quite partisan.  FoxNews sees jihadist conspiracies, and Al-Jazeera sees the French aristocracy pissing on the poor Muslims.  The truth, as always, is somewhere in between and much more complicated.  People have looked at these riots and seen what they wanted to see.  Come to France, live here a while, and you'll see something different.



> I can't say I have a solution for everything, but I don't think that getting locked in a stalemate akin to the West Bank is a good idea.


We are an incredibly long way away from a West Bank type stalemate.  Some vehicles and other property were burnt.  Some minor thuggery resulted in one death.  There were no suicide bombers, rocket attacks, etc.  I don't think what happened here could be classified as terrorism.  Certainly any Frenchman I talked to about it was far from terrorized.



> I think the question is, does a person declaring loyalty to a state or nation that we are at war with constitute a renunciation of citizenship?


The rioters weren't trying to destroy France- they just wanted to poke a stick into the eye of the government.  Vehicles, a few stores, and a couple of schools were burnt down.  No one burnt down city hall, or made an obvious display of attacking the government.  As has been pointed out in this thread previously, torching cars is something of a national sport here- it is not an indication of a jihadist conspiracy to create Gaulistan.



> Frankly, though, if this occured in Canada, I doubt that there would be the same responses I see in here.
> 
> (*Waiting for the inevitable "It Can't Happen Here!"*)


Of course it could happen in Canada, it's just less likely.  The response of the French government was essentially:
1) ignore it and hope it will go away
2) make wishy-washy statements asking for calm
3) allow the cold weather to dampen the enthusiasm of the rioters
4) eventually impose curfews and martial law where required

I don't see the probable response of the Canadian government to be substantially different.

In terms of the public response if similar riots were to occur in Canada, I again don't see too much difference- people will see what they want to see, whether it's really there or not.


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## geo (22 Nov 2005)

Remember when the "natives" got restless?.... Oka isn't all that long ago.
The gov't was about to permit contruction on land that the Native population felt was their land - the natives responded the way they always respond AND the gov't responded by sending in the SQ to force submission by the natives.
The inevitable happened - it's a wonder that only one SQ constable found his way to the "happy hunting grounds".
By some fluke of luck, the Quebec Gov't got it right, figured Natives = federal responsibility and asked for Federal response... the CF were deployed and problems were contained.... Whew!!!


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## Dare (30 Nov 2005)

clasper said:
			
		

> And I'll turn that question around: have you heard what the rioters are chanting and saying amongst each other?  The media reporting on this issue has been spotty and quite partisan.  FoxNews sees jihadist conspiracies, and Al-Jazeera sees the French aristocracy pissing on the poor Muslims.  The truth, as always, is somewhere in between and much more complicated.  People have looked at these riots and seen what they wanted to see.  Come to France, live here a while, and you'll see something different.


I only wish I could one day watch Fox News. I did not first hear of it on Fox News. After being accused of parroting it so often. I have seen video of a few different groupings. I am sure, that perhaps, one could view that in some way that is different. Just as I could tell you that this website is not green but purple. That doesn't make that observation correct. Nor is it true that it is somewhere between green and purple. The truth is the truth. It is always my primary source. It was not Al-Jazeera that solely saw that, it was 99% of world media. Fox News being in the minority, obviously. I've been fond of the underdogs most of my life. Just these days the great underdogs of the world are portrayed as the nemesis of humanity.


> We are an incredibly long way away from a West Bank type stalemate.  Some vehicles and other property were burnt.  Some minor thuggery resulted in one death.  There were no suicide bombers, rocket attacks, etc.  I don't think what happened here could be classified as terrorism.  Certainly any Frenchman I talked to about it was far from terrorized.


This riot was widely dispersed, organized and effective. It seems to me to be just a first wave. The rock throwing (a staple of any angry-young-man demonstration) did have similarities. That and the slogan of "This is Baghdad". Perhaps many that you know were not fearful of the oncoming troubles. I will bet you, though, that many were. We will see the results in the next elections.


> The rioters weren't trying to destroy France- they just wanted to poke a stick into the eye of the government.  Vehicles, a few stores, and a couple of schools were burnt down.  No one burnt down city hall, or made an obvious display of attacking the government.  As has been pointed out in this thread previously, torching cars is something of a national sport here- it is not an indication of a jihadist conspiracy to create Gaulistan.


Perhaps that motivated some, but we have to look at the organizers. It's not just the puppet but the puppeteers. 


> Of course it could happen in Canada, it's just less likely.  The response of the French government was essentially:
> 1) ignore it and hope it will go away
> 2) make wishy-washy statements asking for calm
> 3) allow the cold weather to dampen the enthusiasm of the rioters
> ...


I have a feeling more force would be used here (surprisingly (or perhaps not, considering that which is being compared)). If not by the government but by private citizens who don't enjoy their cars and houses burnt down. Certainly the issues have not been solved, and likely will not be. I think we can expect this to resurface. At least, I will. Given I'm the conspiratorial Fox News Parrot(tm)


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## clasper (30 Nov 2005)

Dare said:
			
		

> I only wish I could one day watch Fox News. I did not first hear of it on Fox News. After being accused of parroting it so often. I have seen video of a few different groupings. I am sure, that perhaps, one could view that in some way that is different. Just as I could tell you that this website is not green but purple. That doesn't make that observation correct. Nor is it true that it is somewhere between green and purple. The truth is the truth. It is always my primary source. It was not Al-Jazeera that solely saw that, it was 99% of world media. Fox News being in the minority, obviously. I've been fond of the underdogs most of my life. Just these days the great underdogs of the world are portrayed as the nemesis of humanity.


So you saw video on some other right wing media outlet instead of Fox News.  I still think you're missing a big part of the picture of what actually happened here.



> This riot was widely dispersed, organized and effective. It seems to me to be just a first wave. The rock throwing (a staple of any angry-young-man demonstration) did have similarities. That and the slogan of "This is Baghdad". Perhaps many that you know were not fearful of the oncoming troubles. I will bet you, though, that many were. We will see the results in the next elections.


Ordinary citizens aren't fearful of the "troubles".  Chirac and his gang were already fearful of the next election, since it has been speculated for quite a while that they're going to get trounced.  The No vote to the European Constitution was about this to a large degree.



> Perhaps that motivated some, but we have to look at the organizers. It's not just the puppet but the puppeteers.


This is where you're starting to see conspiracies.  I disagree that the riots were organized.  Their effectiveness depends on what you consider their objective was.  But the introduction of "puppeteers" is pretty silly.  There were certainly some agitators, but a large portion of the rioters were rioting simply because they could get away with it.  Picture Beavis and Butthead being told they could torch a car and get away with.  (Yeah... that would be cool... yeah...)



> I have a feeling more force would be used here (surprisingly (or perhaps not, considering that which is being compared)). If not by the government but by private citizens who don't enjoy their cars and houses burnt down. Certainly the issues have not been solved, and likely will not be. I think we can expect this to resurface. At least, I will. Given I'm the conspiratorial Fox News Parrot(tm)


There were riots in Toronto in 1992 for a night or two after the Rodney King verdict.  How many shop owners went vigilante?


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## tomahawk6 (16 Oct 2006)

Very disturbing. The fact that Le Pen's FN party is joining with the islamists is not good at all. I think what is happening in France can happen anywhere in Europe.

http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?StoryID=20061013-083614-1432r



> France's Interior Ministry said 2,500 police officers had been "wounded" this year. The head of the hard-line trade union "Action Police" Michel Thooris wrote to Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy to describe conditions in housing developments turned slums as "intifada." Police cruisers are pelted daily with stones and "Molotov cocktails" (gasoline-filled bottles with burning wicks that explode on impact) and Thooris said cops assigned to what was rapidly degenerating into "free fire zones" should be protected in armored vehicles. Entire tall buildings empty into the streets to chase policemen and free an arrested comrade.
> 
> "We are in a state of civil war, orchestrated by radical Islamists," Thooris told journalists. Sarkozy, the leading center-right candidate for next year's presidential election, responded by dispatching cops in body armor, equipped with automatic weapons and rubber bullets, stun and teargas grenades into several Paris suburbs with orders to "restore control" from "organized crime." In one recent clash 250 cops dispersed a 100-strong Muslim gang armed with baseball bats.


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## Cdn Blackshirt (17 Oct 2006)

It's amazing that 2,500 police officers have been injured, over 10,000 cars torched, and it's all being swept under the carpet (most likely in combination by a French government that doesn't want to jeopardize tourist dollars and a North American media that won' t cover anything that Reuters doesn't write the release for....)


Matthew.   ???


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## warspite (17 Oct 2006)

> An average of 14 policemen a day are injured in bloody clashes with jobless youngsters





> "We are in a state of civil war, orchestrated by radical Islamists," Thooris told journalists





> In one recent clash 250 cops dispersed a 100-strong Muslim gang armed with baseball bats


You know if someone offered me a view of the world in five years I wouldn't take it... you know why? Because in five years or so the s**t is really going to start hitting the fan. Stories like this are only the smoke before the fire. The world order that supports our way of life has outwardly stayed the same but I think the foundation it rests on is really starting to get rotten. Now I'm not citing France as an example for the world but once again where there's smoke....

You can call me paranoid but I do think that in five years Canada will be in a lot of trouble, it could very well be this same trouble we will be seeing.


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## jaygt (18 Oct 2006)

this movie was in theatres in new york.  it talks about something that Canada is to polite to talk about.  

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5873290581890701206&q=obsession+islam



2500  police have been wounded in a civil war going on in France against Muslims.   Its not "will"  this happen in Canada but "when".
This is not my opinion but what is said in this movie and in the french press.    I just thought it would be better for us to be educated then ignorant on what is going on around the world.  The sad thing is  most of us have probably not heard of what is really going on in France.  I am also putting up a link to french news paper articles so you can read about this.

http://tailrank.com/636189/France-Facing-Civil-War-from-Its-Muslim-Population

If we can not talk about whats in the french news papers or playing in the theatres of new york on this sight than Canada is in big trouble.  I also want to point out i do not know anything this stuff and i just thought this would make an interesting topic.


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## jaygt (18 Oct 2006)

"the immigrant and first-generation suburbs around France's large and medium-sized cities have been out of control. Crime rates have gone through the roof: According to the Renseignements Généraux, a division of the police, 70,000 violent crimes have been recorded in urban settings since the beginning of the year. They include the torching of more than 28,000 cars and 17,500 trash bins. According to the Interior Ministry, some 9,000 police cars have been stoned by youths this year."

wow france sounds like a  war zone.


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## booted (18 Oct 2006)

I was surprised to read about France.
I have read from various mediums about how strange of a year they had regarding 'violence'.
I didn't think the country was into this much disturbance.


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## warspite (26 Oct 2006)

Zartan said:
			
		

> However, much can happen with the passing of time, and much will. I don't believe it is over yet - *the fire is dead, but embers remain alight*. While most will fade in the coming days and weeks, I feel that these events may have influensed some members of the French Muslim community towards a far more dangerous path. We shall see.


They are still burning quite well just under a year later.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/10/26/paris-riots.html#skip300x250


> Youths torch buses around Paris ahead of anniversary of riots
> Last Updated: Thursday, October 26, 2006 | 2:56 PM ET
> The Associated Press
> Youths in suburban Paris set fire to three buses after forcing passengers off them, in nighttime attacks ahead of the first anniversary of riots in France's housing projects.
> ...


I don't think I would want to be visiting France anytime soon.


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## Infanteer (27 Oct 2006)

The way France works, we'll see a Sixth Republic soon....


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## Kirkhill (27 Oct 2006)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> The way France works, we'll see a Sixth Republic soon....



Time to bust those stone tablets that Constitution is written on?  Again?

A question that comes to mind is which capital does the Islamic Republic of France get?  Vichy or Paris?


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## Infanteer (27 Oct 2006)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Time to bust those stone tablets that Constitution is written on?  Again?



Oooohhh....score one for the Cavaliers....  ^-^


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## geo (27 Oct 2006)

The french are revolting (again)

Yes, aren't they!


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## Cdn Blackshirt (27 Oct 2006)

Watch out for Oct 31 & Nov 1 next week....it could be a very bad couple of days.


Matthew.


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## rz350 (27 Oct 2006)

Hopefully the French police can quell the violence.


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## Infanteer (28 Oct 2006)

Despite my earlier tongue-in-cheek reply, I'm not to worried about this; the violence doesn't seem like anything different than what we see in some US inner-cities.  I don't remember the USA decending into anarchy during the Rodney King Riots or the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in NO.


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