# The Closing of CFB Chilliwack & No Regular Force Army Battalions in BC?!



## Limpy

What I'm wondering is what was the so called "offcial" reason(s) for the closing of CFB Chilliwack. I've heared people say it was punsihment for not voting Liberal in the election of the time. But I don't think thats the reason on paper. Anyway, I didn't like the shutting down of CFB Chilliwack, for down here on the coast living in The Pacific Ring of Fire you live under the threat of earthquakes. Having the base was an excellent emergency response estalishment. With the forest fire situation the base would have been a real asset. Also there is no Reg Force Army in British Columbia anymore so there is not much   influence in the town of Chilliwack or the Lower Mainland for things like recruting.


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## spenco

Mabye I'm wrong but what I was told my my grandfather who lives in Chilliwack,   that when Chretien was first elected in '93 he promised to move all the PPCLI to Edmonton, and as you know they won so he moved them.   Can anyone confirm this?   I think i got it right.


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## McG

CFOCS, 1 CER, and CFSME were the residents of Chilliwack.  3 PPCLI had only just arrived in Chilliwack when the base was closed, and 2 PPCLI is in Winnipeg moving to Shilo (not Edmonton).  Most of 1 CMBG moved to Edmonton from Calgary.  1 CER & 3 PPCLI moved from Chilliwack to Edmonton.

The base was closed to save money by consolidating the CF onto fewer bases.  Same reason for many other bases that have been closed.


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## Limpy

Does anyone think the gains of closing CFB Chilliwack outweigh the loss?


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## JasonH

We don't have Reg. force on the west coast, and wouldn't the PPCLI change that?


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## vr

There's an old saying in these parts that if Chilliwack had voted Liberal the base would still be open.  Hmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Limpy

Well it seems all of B.C. didn't vote Liberal overwhelmingly this election. Wonder if it's Esquimalt or Comox next?


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## spenco

McG said:
			
		

> CFOCS, 1 CER, and CFSME were the residents of Chilliwack.   3 PPCLI had only just arrived in Chilliwack when the base was closed, and 2 PPCLI is in Winnipeg moving to Shilo (not Edmonton).   Most of 1 CMBG moved to Edmonton from Calgary.   1 CER & 3 PPCLI moved from Chilliwack to Edmonton.



Okay thanks for correcting me, I thought I was off the mark with that.  But what are the CFOCS, CER AND CFSME?


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## Coyote43D

CER= Combat Engineer Regiment
CFSME=Canadian Forces School of Military Engineering
not sure but I think CFOCS=Canadian Forces Officer Candidate School


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## pissedpat

The Canadian Forces Officer Candidate School barracks at chilliwack are kinda comfy. That is where they are housing this years BMQ/SQ course. The RCMP resteraunt buffet is also kinda tasty for those early morning meals. Sure beats the original plan for throwing us down in mod tents on concrete slabs. Meh, my weekend leave is almost over, I should start getting back to chilliwack.


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## Limpy

Thanks for the info madpat. I'll be there on July 1.


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## yot

Jay Hunter said:
			
		

> We don't have Reg. force on the west coast, and wouldn't the PPCLI change that?



why we don't have Reg on the west coast?! because unless?!


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## Pugnacious

Well this is typical of the Libral government to cut costs, and gamble on the big game of 'well we might not need it, and we will pay for it when we need it'..which IMHO is sheer stupidity.  Hundreds of forest fires in BC, potential for a huge earth quake, and much civil unrest, having to pay lots moving personell around to take care of these things, and oh yah incresed cost in training.

IMHO we need to have a base here in BC...I'm tired of BC getting the shaft all the time from Ottawa.

Besides who is supposed to defend our west coast? The USA?

Cheers!
P.


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## 30 for 30

On the flip side consolidating 1st Brigade's units together in one location makes a bunch of sense (Shilo units the exception). And a west coast invasion shouldn't be a military consideration in Canada. A B.C. base would indeed be nice, though.


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## McG

Why do so many feel that the only way for the army to respond to a BC earthquake is to keep the army in a location where they will be just as much the casualties?  Alberta soldiers can respond as quick, and they will not be distracted from the task by concerns for their families.

Do not forget, there is a sizable regular force Navy presence in the province of BC.


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## Limpy

It would take about two days for a response from Wainright or the Edmonton Garrison to arrive via road in the event of a disaster such as an earthquake. Alot can happen in two days. Besides, Chilliwack as far as I know would not be as near the
the epicentre if the the "BIG ONE" was to hit. Personnel at Chilliwack would probably be relatively unharmed albeit a little shookin up. As for the Navy at Esquimalt and the Air Force at Comox they would be the hardest hit in the event of an earthquake for the theory is that the most likely place for the big one epicentre around the Juan de Fuca straight. And Esqimalt and Comox are you guessed it, near/right on the water. Besides, I don't believe that both those bases are big on natural disaster response. Mostly for them it's maritime patrols.


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## Pugnacious

Also "Do not forget, there is a sizable regular force Navy presence in the province of BC."

You must be kidding.

The disaster would be in the major urban centers such as Vancouver, the liquifaction of most of Richmonds landbase,   and Victoria which is projected to end up 20' under water, and not semi rural chilliwack.   The bean counters in the earthquake center project that chilliwack would be "shaken, not stired".   Esp' if the Juan de fuca plate is involved.

I personaly can't see the Navy out here on the Island being able to do the inland foot work to help in the disater zone of an urban center. 
Esp' when the next step is digging, walking, running, securing areas against looters etc. 
Are they trained in emergency response in Urban centers?   Are they equiped? Are they in shape?

I wouldn't want the' Navy guy' accross the street that is so fat he can barley get up his front steps without panting to be trying to "rescue me".

Also I remember a few years back how long it took for Alberta troops to make out out here to BC to help when we had a freak snowstorm, and needed to check all the abandoned (and not abandoned) cars on the sides of the highways.

A BC Base would be mighty nice.
Cheers!
P.


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## McG

Earthquakes are not the only natural disaster that your province faces.   Did you know that the Navy participated in fighting the BC forest fires last summer?

If I recall, it was soldiers based in BC that responded to that snow storm a few years back.   Maybe they were to close to the problem to respond faster.




> I personaly can't see the Navy out here on the Island being able to do the inland foot work to help in the disater zone of an urban center.
> Are they trained in emergency response in Urban centers?  Are they equiped? Are they in shape?


Nobody in the CF is trained for HUSAR.  The Naval Construction Troop in Esquimalt would be in a good position to extrapolate using its skills & equipment though.


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## McInnes

CFB Esquimalt has E boxes set up across the base and practice drills/run coarses ,ect to prepare for an earthquake. In the event of a major earthquake the forces don't plan on being huge on the rescue and reconstruction right off the bat. Realistically they will be waiting 'rescue' themselves. I believe that the forces is supposed to have an official 'plan' sometime next year for BC.


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## willy

Comm reserve units in BC usually do at least a couple of "earthquake exercises" each year, with the goal being to "restore" communications throughout the southern portion of Vancouver Island and the Lower Mainland.  These exercises are often conducted in conjunction with elements of both MARPAC and the Provincial Emergency Planning Agency.  If a serious earthquake ever happened though, I have my doubts as to whether or not we'd be able to do anything to really help anyone out, particularly given the fact that most of us would be either stranded, or casualties, or stranded casualties ourselves.

Say what you want about the closing of Chilliwack, but I don't honestly think that 1 CER, a bunch of officer cadets, and a couple of Engr 3's and 5's courses could really stem the tide of disaster, either.  If a really serious earthquake were to hit, there would be widespread destruction, and not just in the urban centres.  Infrastructure of all kinds would be nearly destroyed throughout much of southwestern BC, and that would seriously hamper any operations that were attempted by Chilliwack based units.  When the big one hits, we are going to need thousands of troops, and they are going to have to come in from, and be supported by an undamaged logistical support centre.  I.E. Edmonton, IMHO.


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## Brad Sallows

Maybe the best CF-provided insurance we have in lower mainland BC right now is the air force: the reserve airfield engineering flight (or is it a squadron?) based in Abbotsford.  I have no idea what the manning or equipment of the unit is.  However, with the right mix of skills and equipment, it could mean there is a unit in place to fix up an airfield which should be relatively "survivable" to start with.  The AEF tidies up, and the gear begins flying in...


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## Limpy

Funny you mention the Air Field Engineers Brad. My old school bus driver just last year retired from that Flight. Yes it is a flight. The rest of the Sqd. is in Cold Lake (6th Air Fld. Eng. I think). This bus driver was reg army for 28 yrs. 14 as a platoon Sgt. if  remember. by the way exactly what good is Esquimalt under water? Besides I think most personnel at Esquimalt are always away on ships?


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## McG

The Naval Construction Troop is shore based.


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## Limpy

There no good under water though too ;D


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## Pugnacious

Can they swim? LOL!  ;D


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## Spr.Earl

Limpy said:
			
		

> Does anyone think the gains of closing CFB Chilliwack outweigh the loss?



There were no gain's but major loss' as it left the Corp with a School that can train only 4 to 5 month's a year due to the weather down East where as in the Wack you could train and teach all year round,if you wanted cold weather all's we had to do was go up a few 100 mtrs and voila snow plus for winter Ex's . we just had to drive for a few hours and we had it up in the Chilcoten just west of Billy's Pond.


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## yot

If BC doesn't need a Reg F Base, then why does it need RCMP?!

Edmonton can send the RCMP to BC. (just my thought)


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## MJP

Wow that makes absolutely no sense yot....mind explaining the rationale/thought process behind that one?


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## Trimmen

During the 80's and the 90's military spending cuts lead to the decommission of a BC based Reg Force Army Battalion (as I'm sure all of you know).  
With the current restructuring and generalised boosting of the CF, I'm curious to know about the possibility and/or plausibility of the reformation of a BC based Battalion?


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## vonGarvin

That so-called "decommissioning" of the BC Reg Force Battalion was actually a move from Work Point Barracks in Esquimalt to Edmonton of the 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, who are ANYTHING but "decommisionned".  They served with great honour in Afghanistan in 2002, and continue to serve.


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## Trimmen

So the 3rd battalion (3PPCLI) was "moved" to Edmonton.......The former Chilliwack BC base was bulldozed and is currently being transformed into a sub division. 
But let me get this straight, 1 Battalion in New-Brundswick, 3 in Quebec, 2 in Ontario, 1 in Manitoba (for some reason), 2 in Edmonton, and a wopping 0 in BC.
BC is one of the largest coastlines in the world, completely isolated geographically from the rest of Canada, has the 2nd fastest growing Population base in Canada and has, by far, the mildest climate in Canada. I'm no strategist but I would think that having a battalion in BC might make some sense.


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## Michael OLeary

Trimmen said:
			
		

> So the 3rd battalion (3PPCLI) was "moved" to Edmonton.......The former Chilliwack BC base was bulldozed and is currently being transformed into a sub division.
> But let me get this straight, 1 Battalion in New-Brundswick, 3 in Quebec, 2 in Ontario, 1 in Manitoba (for some reason), 2 in Edmonton, and a wopping 0 in BC.
> BC is one of the largest coastlines in the world, completely isolated geographically from the rest of Canada, has the 2nd fastest growing Population base in Canada and has, by far, the mildest climate in Canada. I'm no strategist but I would think that having a battalion in BC might make some sense.



To get anywhere with this argument, first you'll actually have to define the threat.


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## tabernac

If anything this threat would be sea-borne, and the proposed Marine Commando Regiment effectively nullifies the need for a battalion to guard against said threats.


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## Michael OLeary

cheeky_monkey, here's your sign:



> I'm no strategist



Your suggestion lacks the necessary detail and sufficient analysis to state that a battalion sized organization simply stationed on the coast is sufficient to guard against a conceivable "sea-borne" threat.


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## McG

Trimmen said:
			
		

> I'm no strategist but I would think that having a battalion in BC might make some sense.


Why?  Why does BC need a battalion?  What is the capability that is missing?  Do you think the importance of a province is measured by the number of infantry battalions within it?  What of all the other types of army (and non-army) units?  To me, it seems that you are talking about prestige when comparing numbers of battalions without talking about the need.



			
				cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> If anything this threat would be sea-borne, and the proposed Marine Commando Regiment effectively nullifies the need for a battalion to guard against said threats.


?  This is silly.  Are you suggesting that BC's requirement for an infantry battalion is to defend against an amphibious invasion?  And you believe that the nonexistent marine commando unit will be interchangeable with a battalion?


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## Gayson

I have to agree.

BC has a very large coastline and a large population.

I don't believe Vancouver is going to get attacked anytime soon, but I think it makes sense to have a battalion there.  If Canada were to ever be attacked, it's coasts would provide a good means to land troops.

At the same time however, it must cost more money to have many units spread out over the country versus having multiple units sharing one area.  I'm sure whatever the reason was for moving the PPCLI made sense at the time.


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## Ex-Dragoon

By your arguments and logic then we should have a Regular Force Bn in Nfld, NS and each of the 3 Northern Territories. What about coastal provinces without naval bases? Should each of them get a frigate or two? Provinces without fighter squadrons? Provinces without armour.... The list can go on and on if you really want it to....See where I am going with this?


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## career_radio-checker

Ok I just wrote a long diatribe and had it deleted by my stupid pop-up blocker  

In short, the threat comes from natural disasters. If When the 'BIG ONE' comes, we can expect major damage to roads, water lines, gas lines, and power grids. Also look at this picture:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=vancouver+bc&ie=UTF8&z=10&ll=49.126915,-123.230896&spn=0.391817,1.376038&t=k&om=1

Much of Vancouver is built on a flood plain which will liquify when the earth starts shaking. And you see all that mud at the mouth of the Fraser River? Geologists predict that will cause a giant tsunami if it ever had an under water landslide. This would put the Vancouver international airport out of action and cause many casualties. 

When the call goes out for the military, the closest heavy logistics is in Edmonton and will have to come through the mountain roads which will undoubtebly be covered with landslides. Those first 72 hours are crucial and Vancouver would best be served by having an army base closer than Edmonton, and idealy an engineer base with specialized equipment.


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## Donut

Why?  So that equipment, and personnel, can be victims of the disaster, instead of responding to it?  So they can be isolated in Chilliwack, with no means of resupply?  With no means to get anybody to anywhere to do any good?

Even when 1 CER was located in Chilliwack, along with CFSME, there wasn't enough MGB, Bailey, Acrow, or MR to get across the Vedder, the Chilliwack River, the Fraser River.... etc.  In short, they aren't able to get themselves the 100 km from CWac to Vancouver.

Those who think that having 800-odd soldiers in the middle of the disaster zone is going to make any difference beyond helping those people in the immediate vicinity of the base are deluding themselves.

I would suggest the best bet for BC after the big one is going to come from 192 AEF located at the Abbotsford Airport, a unit that specializes in Airfield Engineering, and *may * be in a position to restore operations at an airport or two to get the rest of the relief forces in.  

You are right in that the first 72 hrs will be crucial, but it will be the individuals and families, well prepared and equipped to look after themselves, without *any * outside support, that will reduce the degree of the calamity.  You saw the footage of Katrina?  Stock up now, cache some food, water and other necessities, have a plan, and think ahead.

As for the "Sea Borne Threat", that's what Maritime Patrol AC are for, and I don't believe they're going away any time soon.

My 2 shekels,

DF


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## Neill McKay

Trimmen said:
			
		

> So the 3rd battalion (3PPCLI) was "moved" to Edmonton.......The former Chilliwack BC base was bulldozed and is currently being transformed into a sub division.
> But let me get this straight, 1 Battalion in New-Brundswick, 3 in Quebec, 2 in Ontario, 1 in Manitoba (for some reason), 2 in Edmonton, and a wopping 0 in BC.
> BC is one of the largest coastlines in the world, completely isolated geographically from the rest of Canada, has the 2nd fastest growing Population base in Canada and has, by far, the mildest climate in Canada. I'm no strategist but I would think that having a battalion in BC might make some sense.



There is, though, a little less than half of the navy's fleet in BC.  If you're worried about the length of coastline, that's something to be considered.

Another thing to consider would be the militia -- does it have a strong presence in BC?


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## medaid

Umm... ya... I think our presence is okay... I mean we hold an exercise every year up in Kamloops/Kelowna... I mean 39 CBG's Cougar Salvo is well a good size right?



			
				ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Why?  So that equipment, and personnel, can be victims of the disaster, instead of responding to it?  So they can be isolated in Chilliwack, with no means of resupply?  With no means to get anybody to anywhere to do any good?



+1  Most of the units in the lower mainland would be in VERY big trouble. As those of us who actually reside in BC know that 12 Svc Bn would literally have to self-recover, with what ever they can muster, with what ever man power they can sort out. They are our main base for logistical support, yet they are located on an island which will instantly liquify if an earthquake hits. So... any other bright ideas?

[quote autho=ParaMedTech link=topic=57936/post-532923#msg532923 date=1172394354]
Those who think that having 800-odd soldiers in the middle of the disaster zone is going to make any difference beyond helping those people in the immediate vicinity of the base are deluding themselves.
[/quote]

+1 Again... funny how we think alike. There is no point in having a Bn of soldier here (We're already got one and a few worth spread out the lower mainland) who are not trained for support in disaster areas. The usage of Light Urban Search and Rescue [LUSAR] is extremely important in the aftermath of an earthquake disaster, and 39 CBG has realized that and have been training their pers in the techniques of LUSAR. This is not saying that those extra 800 something odd soldier can not fulfill vital roles in the rescue/cleanup/aid process but like ParaMedTech said, it'll be pretty useless if they cant get across the rivers needed to bring the help here to the people.


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## career_radio-checker

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Even when 1 CER was located in Chilliwack, along with CFSME, there wasn't enough MGB, Bailey, Acrow, or MR to get across the Vedder, the Chilliwack River, the Fraser River.... etc.  In short, they aren't able to get themselves the 100 km from CWac to Vancouver.
> 
> Those who think that having 800-odd soldiers in the middle of the disaster zone is going to make any difference beyond helping those people in the immediate vicinity of the base are deluding themselves.



I never said it should be in Chilliwack, just closer to Vancouver than Edmonton. Abotsford is a good choice.


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## rosco

True a huge coastline to defend but...
the Coastal Ranges make almost all avenues inland imposible.
Still I would love to live "wet" again!


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## tabernac

MCG said:
			
		

> ?  This is silly.  Are you suggesting that BC's requirement for an infantry battalion is to defend against an amphibious invasion?  And you believe that the nonexistent marine commando unit will be interchangeable with a battalion?



RAdm Girourd seems to think that this MCR would guard against threats against ferries, cruise ships, etc. that frequent the BC coastline. It would be redundant (this WOULD be going out of my lane) to station a Reg F battalion in BC, if they (this theroretical battalion and the non-existant MCR) were to overlap duties. And no, they are not interchangeable, as they have different roles.
Sea borne threat=marine unit
land borne threat=Reg F unit


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## Michael OLeary

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> *Sea borne threat*=marine unit
> *land borne threat*=Reg F unit



No-one in this thread has yet actually defined theses "threats" to support their claims that a Reg F unit (Bn or 'MCR') should be stationed in the province.



			
				ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Why?  So that equipment, and personnel, can be victims of the disaster, instead of responding to it?  So they can be isolated in Chilliwack, with no means of resupply?  With no means to get anybody to anywhere to do any good?
> 
> Even when 1 CER was located in Chilliwack, along with CFSME, there wasn't enough MGB, Bailey, Acrow, or MR to get across the Vedder, the Chilliwack River, the Fraser River.... etc.  In short, they aren't able to get themselves the 100 km from CWac to Vancouver.
> 
> Those who think that having 800-odd soldiers in the middle of the disaster zone is going to make any difference beyond helping those people in the immediate vicinity of the base are deluding themselves.



Let's also not forget this when debating the value of a unit for disaster response: positioning such a unit in the 'zone' would include positioning all of their families there too, with the attendant stresses and distractions that would cause in an emergency.


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## 3rd Herd

Okay,
first off the 3rd Bn. moved out of Work Point for several reasons most of which have been discused at length here on the site. In capsolation it was lack of training area, costs of on and off island, and the need for the Pacific fleet to expand. They ran out of room at Nellis. In writing a paper, partly for the civil authorities in Victoria it was discovered that for the most part Esquimalt would be isolated. This isolation due to the forseen collapse of all three bridges which feed into that municipality. The Parliament buildings as with other major areas of Victoria are built on reclaimed land. In the event of a major seismic event it is going to be allot of "the walls came tumbling down". Victoria and surrounding area have long been formatting a multi stakeholder disaster plan( at the provincial level there has been quite an amount of expertise provided by retired military how have had practical experience while on duty in various countries). All schools have 72 hour kits as do a majority of both public and private companies. Many households through education programs in local schools have the same. In some schools students have training in how to set up disaster reception centers etc.

As for the Maritime threat, yes the coast is for the most part pretty well looked after. Between the Coast Guard, the fly boys out of Comox, and the Reg/Res patrol vessels out of Esquimalt not too much gets by them. Examples of what does, Chinese fishing boats on their last legs afloat bringing economic refugees. A seasonal thing, currents, fog banks, wave action. The outside of Vancouver island is not the same as the nice land protected inside passage. There is the reason there is not much travel, in the age of sailling ships and the dawn of steam mariners found this area to be one of the most difficult to navigate. The wrecks from by gone years have contributed to divers paradise and new ones are often being found both under the water and ashore as wave action strips covering beach sand. Not much in the way of road development to the west coast either as those of us who have lived there can attest too.

Lastly as for a reg bn. where are you going to put them, their support units, as mentioned families. All of the old training areas have been shut down, closed, down sized and there is not the room or I suspect the funding to reestablish on the island. As for the reserves and the cadet organization who are still there. They seem to be doing quite well.

my two cents.


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## STING

Perhaps station one of the future companies of CSOR at the Chilliwack base . They wouldn't require the logistics and support of a full batallion . Plus a great training area for light infantry with all the coastal mountain terrain in BC . Just a idea .....


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## Donut

On this subject, The Province today ran a 6-page special on the threat the massive snowpack will pose this spring.  I know the Dom Ops people already have this in their sights, and are tracking it carefully.

Estimates include the blocking of the trans-Canada, the cutting of both CN and CP rail lines, the loss of good chunks of the hydro grid, and all the usual crap and corruption that follows the loss of the modern conveniences we're all so attached to.

Here's an on-topic joke, too, that follows along with Mr. O'Leary's comment:

Where do rescue crews go first after a disaster?  

My house, I'm the one driving!


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## McG

STING said:
			
		

> Perhaps station one of the future companies of CSOR at the Chilliwack base .


1.  Why?  What purpose will it serve?  How will it train?

2.  There is no longer enough of what was CFB Chilliwack to start throwing units into it for our amusement.

3.  A company still requires support & administration (especially when it is not part of a battalion).


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## McG

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> And no, they are not interchangeable, as they have different roles.
> Sea borne threat=marine unit
> land borne threat=Reg F unit


Well, I think you've demonstrated you lack of understanding on the topic here.  But anyway, what capability to secure our coast will we get with a regular force marine commando that we are not getting from the airforce, navy, and coast guard?


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## warspite

Some food for thought:
What's the threat to B.C. ???
Well in all fairness, whats the threat to Edmonton  ???

Note: Not going out on some wild idea here, just pointing out a flaw in asking that question.


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## I_am_John_Galt

I find it a little disconcerting to think that during any decent winter storm two airports are the only lifeline (to Regular Army) for an entire province (which includes one of the country's most important ports & 3rd-largest city), regardless of the reason they might be needed ...


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## medaid

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Where do rescue crews go first after a disaster?
> 
> My house, I'm the one driving!



NOT FAIR! Well... my house next? I'll be in the vehicle right along side of you  :


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## geo

Trimmen said:
			
		

> So the 3rd battalion (3PPCLI) was "moved" to Edmonton.......The former Chilliwack BC base was bulldozed and is currently being transformed into a sub division.
> But let me get this straight, 1 Battalion in New-Brundswick, 3 in Quebec, 2 in Ontario, 1 in Manitoba (for some reason), 2 in Edmonton, and a wopping 0 in BC.
> BC is one of the largest coastlines in the world, completely isolated geographically from the rest of Canada, has the 2nd fastest growing Population base in Canada and has, by far, the mildest climate in Canada. I'm no strategist but I would think that having a battalion in BC might make some sense.



Basing a unit in a province is one thing.... keeping them in fighting trim is another.
PPCLI from work point spent more time and money moving their equipment to the maniland & the US for field training than in the actual training... not a good idea.

There was a suggestion to base a CER unit in the Vancouver area. Argument about having someone there in case of the city getting hit by "the big one".... but, no one appears to have taken into consideration the concept of having troops staged on top of ground zero.... not a good idea.

Chilliwack..... great training area..... also ground zero on some aboriginal land claims.  Now that appears to hae been settled.  A reserve CER is supposed to grow within BC.  A sqn in Vancouver, a sqn or more destined for the Chilliwack area....


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## medaid

geo said:
			
		

> A reserve CER is supposed to grow within BC.  A sqn in Vancouver, a sqn or more destined for the Chilliwack area....



6 Fd is growing quite nicely and their sister unit in Chilliwack is also expanding at a good rate.


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## geo

MedTech said:
			
		

> 6 Fd is growing quite nicely and their sister unit in Chilliwack is also expanding at a good rate.


............54 Field Sqn,.


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## Trimmen

That's What I'm talking about! 
What about the possible threats a posed by a natural disaster an its implications to the population.
And what about the threats that the population could pose to itself.
And a side note.....Aside from BC, where in Canada (in not anywhere) can one ski and swim on the same day. The Lower Main Land and Fraser Valley offer the best all around training geography in Canada don't they?


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## safeboy43

He does have a point as there are some things that you can do in Chilliwack and not at another location. When the BOTC was located at Chilliwack, the temperature was normally mild and they could do multiple training scenarios in a single day (winter training and swimming). In St. Jean, you would have some difficulty doing those two things in the same season, never mind the same day.

However, Reserve units are in abundance so some good is coming out of that. The Westies are using part of the Chilliwack base for their BMQ and 54 Field Engineers are using part of it as well. Unfortunately, as I see it, they are simply doing the best they can because most Reg Force land is no longer theirs....courtesy of the Liberal Party Of Canada.

Just my 2 cents....


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## Michael OLeary

Trimmen said:
			
		

> That's What I'm talking about!



Please review the points made above.



			
				Trimmen said:
			
		

> What about the possible threats a posed by a natural disaster an its implications to the population.



Note where the points were made about the problems of having such a unit positioned in the hypothetical danger zone.  If they are part of the affected area, we lose the capability, and cannot take advantage of it.



			
				Trimmen said:
			
		

> And what about the threats that the population could pose to itself.



Would you care to explain this point in detail.



			
				Trimmen said:
			
		

> And a side note.....Aside from BC, where in Canada (in not anywhere) can one ski and swim on the same day. The Lower Main Land and Fraser Valley offer the best all around training geography in Canada don't they?



Sporting preferences do not make a good foundation for deciding where to put a unit of the CF.

Training geography for what roles?


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## Michael OLeary

Twitch said:
			
		

> He does have a point as there are some things that you can do in Chilliwack and not at another location. When the BOTC was located at Chilliwack, the temperature was normally mild and they could do multiple training scenarios in a single day (winter training and swimming). In St. Jean, you would have some difficulty doing those two things in the same season, never mind the same day.



Having taken BOTC in Chilliwack in the fall, followed by Infantry officer Training in Gagetown starting in January, the only factor that dictated how many tasks were performed in either location was what time the sun rose and set.  So, unless you are suggesting that Chilliwack has more hours of daylight, you've just offered this thread a red hering.  Thank you.


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## safeboy43

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Having taken BOTC in Chilliwack in the fall, followed by Infantry officer Training in Gagetown starting in January, the only factor that dictated how many tasks were performed in either location was what time the sun rose and set.  So, unless you are suggesting that Chilliwack has more hours of daylight, you've just offered this thread a red hering.  Thank you.


That was not my intention. What I was confirming is that BC has a very unique climate compared to the rest of Canada. Most particularly, the Lower Mainland. It is near the coast and the climate is moderated by the Pacific. Many activities can be done as the climate is very diverse. Make your way up a mountain an hour away, and the temperature is in the negatives (perfect for winter combat training). At another location, it's the exact opposite. This saves the CF money by not having to move members all over the country for different training.

However, if you wanted to cram as many training sessions in one day, the NWT would be a good place to start because of the constant sun in the spring and summer......

I hope this clears things up


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## Michael OLeary

Twitch said:
			
		

> That was not my intention. What I was confirming is that BC has a very unique climate compared to the rest of Canada. Most particularly, the Lower Mainland. It is near the coast and the climate is moderated by the Pacific. Many activities can be done as the climate is very diverse. Make your way up a mountain an hour away, and the temperature is in the negatives (perfect for winter combat training). At another location, it's the exact opposite. This saves the CF money by not having to move members all over the country for different training.
> 
> However, if you wanted to cram as many training sessions in one day, the NWT would be a good place to start because of the constant sun in the spring and summer......
> 
> I hope this clears things up



It clears up your intent, however it does nothing to advance any strategic reason for locating a unit in BC, which was the principal direction of the thread.


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## safeboy43

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> It clears up your intent, however it does nothing to advance any strategic reason for locating a unit in BC, which was the principal direction of the thread.


I'm sorry to beat a dead horse, but it does. 

My answer, short and simple: Diverse Training Conditions

Cheers


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## Michael OLeary

You are beating a dead horse, and you are wrong.  "Diverse Training Conditions" does not present a decisive argument for the positioning of a unit anywhere unless that unit's primary role is absolutely dependent on those particular training opportunities.

Please review the definition(s) of strategic, you will see that training resources are seldom a critical factor.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/strategic



> *stra·te·gic*
> 4.	Military.
> a.	intended to render the enemy incapable of making war, as by the destruction of materials, factories, etc.: a strategic bombing mission.
> b.	essential to the conduct of a war: Copper is a strategic material.
> 
> *stra·te·gic*
> 1. Of or relating to strategy.
> 2.
> 1. Important or essential in relation to a plan of action: a strategic withdrawal.
> 2. Essential to the effective conduct of war: strategic materials.
> 3. Highly important to an intended objective: The staff discussed strategic marketing factors.
> 3. Intended to destroy the military potential of an enemy: strategic bombing.
> 
> *strategic*
> 1. 	relating to or concerned with strategy; "strategic weapon"; "the islands are of strategic importance"; "strategic considerations"
> 2. 	highly important to or an integral part of a strategy or plan of action especially in war; "a strategic chess move"; "strategic withdrawal"; "strategic bombing missions"


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## safeboy43

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> You are beating a dead horse, and you are wrong.  "Diverse Training Conditions" does not present a decisive argument for the positioning of a unit anywhere unless that unit's primary role is absolutely dependent on those particular training opportunities.
> 
> Please review the definition(s) of strategic, you will see that training resources are seldom a critical factor.
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/strategic


If you think so, then consider the places you may have to conduct a raid (for example). They can occur in multiple places and in multiple countries. All the way from a cold, snowy environment to a city. If the CF can compact these two places into one, it makes for some extra dollars because less moving is required and the training is done faster. In the lower mainland (Chilliwack), this can be done.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Twitch....why not share your military background so people will know where you are coming from....


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## safeboy43

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Twitch....why not share your military background so people will know where you are coming from....


I have no military background but I do know what makes a good training environment and is economically efficient. I have mentioned why it would be beneficial to have a Reg Force Battalion in BC but I see it has become more of a war. If you are unsure, please read my posts above. 

Now that I have established my point clearly, I think it's best to keep the peace on this thread and let somebody else do the talking. I see no need to continue this as it will likely result in a lock down on this thread, which nobody wants.  

Thank You


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## RyanNS

Trimmen said:
			
		

> ....and has, by far, the mildest climate in Canada.



B.C. has the mildest climate in Canada? Actually if you're ranking this by province then Nova Scotia has the mildest climate. I think you were referring to the fact that the small coastal area in South Western B.C. has the mildest climate in Canada, which it does but not by a whole lot. There isn't really anywhere in Canada that is "mild". Also what benefits would this have to a reg force battalion being stationed there? Less diversified weather to train in?


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## ArmyRick

Hey twitch is there arid desert in BC? Right now thats the theater that the army is operating out of. A-stan. maybe we should post a battalion down in Fort Irwin, California due to its similar to  a-stan enviroment.

I have a better idea. Since you have no military expirience to speak of, why don't you lets us with plenty of military expirience run the show?


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## orange.paint

Wasnt the Rocky Mountain Rangers stood up just to defend the west coast during WW2?Along with the rangers?


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## geo

(Ft Bliss Texas)


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## Ex-Dragoon

Twitch said:
			
		

> *I have no military background but I do know what makes a good training environment and is economically efficient. I have mentioned why it would be beneficial to have a Reg Force Battalion in BC but I see it has become more of a war. If you are unsure, please read my posts above. *
> 
> Now that I have established my point clearly, I think it's best to keep the peace on this thread and let somebody else do the talking. I see no need to continue this as it will likely result in a lock down on this thread, which nobody wants.
> 
> Thank You



You do realize you are arguing against people that are in the CF and have been involved in the training of soldiers. Why do you feel you know better then they do?

Now if it wasn't for your first section that I bolded which comes across as rather arrogant and "all knowing" I would not bother have commenting. You are clearly outside of your lanes but admitting no military experience. I suggest a little more reading and less posting.


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## I_am_John_Galt

Back to the subject (if it's not totally lost already): skiing in the morning and sailing in the afternoon notwithstanding, there are some unique training opportunities (yes, ArmyRick there definitely _ARE _ deserts in BC!):



> CFB PETAWAWA, Ontario — After 16 grueling weeks of training, 125 men and women graduated as the first members of the Canadian Forces newest fighting force, the Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR).
> 
> ...
> 
> The training highlight saw the new regiment deploy to the Kamloops, B.C., area to validate it previous weeks of training in unfamiliar and more challenging terrain. The area mirrors some of the current operational environments soldiers face today.


 http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/Land_Force/english/6_1_1.asp?FlashEnabled=0&id=1218&action=comment

Moreover, (as I tried to allude to earlier) a terrorist 'event' in Vancouver might prove very difficult to respond-to.  What if  a radiological 'dirty bomb' went off in one of the (rarely inspected) shipping containers in the Port?  Surely the overland routes would be blocked by civilians just trying to escape ....  something as simple as a (really) big weather system could cause massive slides on the North Shore and simultaneously close all of the mountain passes to the east ... what if a hostile force decided to seize and terrorize Vancouver for a day or two (or a week)?  It would not be terribly difficult for several dozen irregulars to blend-in with the local populace, then take the airports and downtown ... the CF would have to respond overland from the other side of several mountain ranges (hope it doesn't snow!).

Of course these 'scenarios' are far-fetched (some more than others), but the point is that in a emergency, Vancouver is the least-accessible big city in Canada as well as being the furthest-located from any regular army presence... it ain't right..  Perhaps even better than Chilliwack, a location further inland (such as Kamloops or Vernon) would offer locally-available training opportunities in desert, mountain & winter warfare while putting a Regular presence much closer to the Lower Mainland yet still geographically insulated from ground zero of the most likely disaster scenarios.


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## safeboy43

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> You do realize you are arguing against people that are in the CF and have been involved in the training of soldiers. Why do you feel you know better then they do?


Of course I realize that. However, military experience is not needed to tell what is most efficient (although it helps). After all, base locations are not stationed by Officers and Senior NCO's (who normally take care of the training). They are usually put where it suites the government. I have said it would be economically efficient to place a Battalion in BC because of it's diverse climate. 

I respect every member of the CF and what they do for me every day, but I don't see what discussing Battalion locations has do do with challenging their experience in training soldiers.

Cheers


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## Donut

Twitch said:
			
		

> ...I don't see what discussing Battalion locations has do do with challenging their experience in training soldiers.
> 
> Cheers



And there you have it.  You're way outside your lane on this one.  

Read more, post less.

DF


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## Franko

Twitch said:
			
		

> Of course I realize that. However, military experience is not needed to tell what is most efficient (although it helps). After all, base locations are not stationed by Officers and Senior NCO's (who normally take care of the training). They are usually put where it suites the government. I have said it would be economically efficient to place a Battalion in BC because of it's diverse climate.
> 
> I respect every member of the CF and what they do for me every day, but *I don't see what discussing Battalion locations has do do with challenging their experience in training soldiers.*
> 
> Cheers



Twitch,

You are completely off the range never mind your lane or arcs.

Keep this up and you'll be on the ramp.

*The Army.ca Staff*


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## bwatch

I don't think there is any. Most of the Militia training that was at Chilliwack now has to be done in Washington State at Fort Lewis. This now means a Border Crossing and planty of paper work. Transport is more costly, as well as meals and lodging.


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## Donut

Was it worth it?  To who?  

As to tng, you're out to lunch.  What tng has been moved to the states versus the existing, remaining, facilities in Chilliwack?

Bridging?  Yup, still done in the 'wac.  I know there's some restrictions on Cultis now, but no biggie.

Dems?  Slesse range still goes boom.

Rifle and Grenade?  Volkes range is still there.

Heavy Equipment?  All the veh are gone, but the OPSEE's still there, and 6 FES, 56(?) ESS still use it.

Our Arty NEVER Fired in Chilliwack.  It had some boobytrap houses, but no FART-FISH-MOUT-FIBUA site, unless you count the old corrections camps.

Please, BWAtch, fill me in;  I've only been tng there for 14 years.

How many years did YOU spend there?

DF


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## ammo618

ParaMedTech   +1 ;D

Couldn't have said it better myself........I spent a total of 9+ years there working/running the ammo section & then with the ASU...Cheers.

Jim


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## Zoomie

Don't forget the range/training area west of Williams Lake that is run out of ASU Chilliwack.  That training area has been and is still in use.

We're considering it for live para and night illumination exercises.


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## bwatch

ammo618 said:
			
		

> ParaMedTech   +1 ;D
> 
> Couldn't have said it better myself........I spent a total of 9+ years there working/running the ammo section & then with the ASU...Cheers.
> 
> Jim



It's the same with my old regiment in Montreal, they go to Fort Drum at least once a month in New York State. While Seaforth tend to go mostly to Fort Lewis as do BC REG.  I'm not sure about the others.


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## Donut

and again, for what?  

What does Ft Lewis offer them, besides a different tng area (which DOES have value I'll admit, new terrain: New challenges) and a big honking PX, that used to be, but is no longer, available in Chilliwack?

Zoomie, is that Chilcotin you're talking about?


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## Michael OLeary

bwatch said:
			
		

> It's the same with my old regiment in Montreal, they go to Fort Drum at least once a month in New York State. While Seaforth tend to go mostly to Fort Lewis as do BC REG.  I'm not sure about the others.



According to Google maps

From: Montréal, QC
To: Fort Drum, NY, USA

	274 km (about 3 hours 22 mins)	

Now compare this with these options:

To: Val-Bélair, QC (outside Valcartier)

	267 km (about 2 hours 58 mins)	

From: Montréal, QC
To: Petawawa, ON

	353 km (about 4 hours 2 mins)


Valcartier and Fort Drum are about the same distance from Montreal.  And the time 'lost' at the border probably doesn't make Petawawa a significantly different option. I would suggest that training in the US is seldom a matter of lack of options in Canada.  There are, of course, those instances where very unique training facilities exist, or you are travelling far enough south to enable 'summer' training during our Canadian 'winter'.


----------



## geo

bwatch said:
			
		

> It's the same with my old regiment in Montreal, they go to Fort Drum at least once a month in New York State. While Seaforth tend to go mostly to Fort Lewis as do BC REG.  I'm not sure about the others.



Considering all the bureaucratic paperwork required to move troops & arms to the US, Ft Drum is not necessarily all that good an option.

Trg areas near Montreal:
Valcartier
Petawawa
Farnham
St Bruno ranges
Connaught ranges

Ft Drum (NY)
Etan Allen ranges (Vt)

... It is often "sexy" going to the US - even if the training facilities are similar

HOWEVER

That having been said, there is one great advantage to training in the US.... Base ASU bend over backwards to provide you with services.  Not forced to face the 9-5 Mon to Fri BS we sometimes get on our side of the border.... "what do you mean you didn't submit your forms into the papermill 6 or 8 weeks ago... sorry, can't do anything for you"

But, from a rifleman's point of view - not much of a difference between all of the above training areas.


----------



## McG

bwatch said:
			
		

> It's the same with my old regiment in Montreal . . .


What is the same & how is it the same?


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## dapaterson

Another overlooked issue:  1 CMBG now has their CER colocated with three of the units they support - 1 VP, 3 VP and the LDSH.  There's certainly a benefit to having those units colocated (but better if there were an easily accessible training area).


And fond memories of Chilcotin are flooding back now... and fine stories... like learning that map overprints are not always correct, and that perhaps that abandonned shack isn't really in the training area, well after the fact...


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Water under the bridge - and reversing the decision would cost a fortune.  What capabilty / project should we sacrifice?


----------



## Zoomie

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Zoomie, is that Chilcotin you're talking about?



Indeed - forgot the name...

It's within 3 hours of the Lower Mainland - does it have any training value?


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## Donut

Zoomie, I recall Ops looking into using it when I was at 6FES, and the cost to the unit to to get Range Control to reopen it was prohibitive.  Of course, we no longer actually have RC in ASU CWac, so it may be cheaper these days   ;D


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