# Posting Policy-Out of Canada (OUTCAN) [MERGED]



## AWife (16 Dec 2009)

I am completely new here, but am searching for advice. 

There is a possibility for an outcan posting for my family, I am the wife (Hence username) and hubby is the memeber. Can someone give me pointers on what to expect if we accept the posting. EI, housing, vehicles, work and everything that goes along. I am truly going into this blind at the moment and want to have it all worked out in my mind before we say yes or no to be posted.


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## Jammer (16 Dec 2009)

Do yourself a favour...wait until he has a posting message in his hand first. There's not much you can do until then.
It really depends on where you might be going (Europe, US...etc).
It's not you that will accept the posting, It'll be your husband. If he's been asking for it and he turns it down after being offered it there will be repurcussions that he will have to answer for.
Long story short...wait for a posting message and go from there.


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## Nfld Sapper (16 Dec 2009)

If you're posted to Europe you might want to check out Canadian Forces Europe Site, it has some info in the Living Abroad-Europe 
Move; Living; and Departure.

If you can give us some more info I am sure some of the site members can help you out.


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## AmmoTech90 (16 Dec 2009)

If it's Europe I can give a bit of advice, got back from a three year tour in the UK around a year and a half ago.


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## captloadie (17 Dec 2009)

No disrespect to Jammer, but the worse thing you can do is wait for a posting message. In order to make an informed decision on whether to except an outcan offer, you need to be well informed beforehand. Lots of members apply for an outcan without first thinking about the pros/cons, and then once the process is started, either realize its not what they wanted, or are too swept up in the screening and posting to think about all the important things until they arrive at the new station, and then its too late.

I was posted to the Netherlands this APS. It was an out of the blue offer to fill a vacancy that came up in due to someone else screening Red. I found out in May, and my family and I had to rush through alot of the process to get here by COS in August. We love it here, but the first few months were very difficult. If I could do it over again, I'd want to do what you are doing now, getting all the facts first.

Here are some of the important things to take a hard look at before saying yes, especially as a spouse. You'll probably see all these questions again when you do the screening, but talking about with your spouse now before the offer is made is best.

a) Are you going to a country where you speak the language, or where the majority of the population speaks English (or French I guess)?
b) Is there a large Cdn contingent on the post, or nearby, or will you be on a remote posting?
c) If you have school age children, where will they go to school, and is it equivalent to Canadian standards?
d) Will your spouse be away on trips alot, or can he be deployed for a tour? 
e) Can you as a spouse work in the country your being posted to?
f) Do you have strong family ties in Canada that you can separate from for an extended period?
g) Are you prepared to downsize your living accommodations?
h) Although for the majority of oversea's postings money is not a factor (most of the allowances are quite generous), if you have alot of financial obligations and are used to having 2 incomes, can you enjoy all your new posting has to offer on potentially only one salary (you can't collect EI outside of Canada, not even maternity benefits)?

If you haven't read between the lines yet, as a spouse, the largest thing to adapt to on an overseas posting (with the exception of maybe a posting to the USA) is the potential feeling of isolation. 

However, if after thinking about all the above, and realizing that yes, you still want to do it, it can be one of the best experiences ever for your family. 

Best of Luck.


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## Jammer (17 Dec 2009)

None taken... :christmas happy:


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## AWife (17 Dec 2009)

Thank you ALL! 

I realize it is my husband that will make either turn the posting down, but it is something we will do as a family also by as the previous poster who said weighing the pro's and con's before going blind into it. 

But I do suppose, answering the questions that captloadie said, we are prepared in that sense. 

Captloadie, you said downsizing living accommodations... we are in the 3br PMQ, as a family of four, can it really get any worse? 

Feelings of isolation are something I've grown accustomed to as an Army Wife... he's gone a lot, my biggest fear is the financial aspect of it all. How does one purchase vehicles, if its a long term posting, purchasing a house... that sort of thing.


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## Jammer (17 Dec 2009)

You can take veh with you, but be careful. If you are going to Europe you might not want to bring your SUV. Gas prices are considerably more than in North America. The same goes for buying a house. Renting is what most everyone does.
if you are going to be living off base in Europe you will find it pretty easy to get along in English, but half the fun of an OUTCAN posting is immersing yourself in a totally different culture.


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## old fart (17 Dec 2009)

WRT vehicles, I bought a new GM in 2001 which we thought we would take to Germany.  My posting was switched to the UK, so although the steering wheel was going to be on the wrong side we still shipped it.

GM Canada were helpful getting our warranty registered with GM Overseas Corporation so that worked also..although  each UK repair had us paying upfront then claiming the cash back.  Parts were obtained quick and easy even though the vehicle was only available to the Swedish market.

If you take a vehicle with you from this end, I would take a BMW, Volvo or Volkswagen...although buying overseas has its advantages, i.e.  tax free with military discounts also.   

Incidentally, if you ended up in the UK, a left hand drive vehicle is easy to operate.

We  kept our Canadian home and rented it out, this kept us in the market and any losses tax deductable.  This worked for us, particularly as we came back to the base we had left four years prior.  

Never heard of anyone purchasing a home to live in overseas, although while we were there we purchased a second home back this side of the pond which was very easy to do.

You are eligible for a low interest loan before you depart, but these days that is not as much of a benefit as it was.

One of our kids went to High School in Europe (Italy), the other UNB before switch to a UK university (don't advise this as it is expensive as hell).  

Spousal employment may also prove difficult if that is a factor, unless you speak the lingo or live close enough to a CF Support Unit where employment opportunities may exist. 

To some up.....when these postings occur, they come up fast, and before you know it your on the plane....the more you have read the better off you will be as there is a bit more admin to square away than normal.   

The  overseas support unit responsible for your admin in Europe or Ottawa if elsewhere will send you some good stuff but for us it was way to late to make the best use of it.  The CFSU(E) website was not functioning back in 2002, we left 2006.

Best of luck and have a very Merry Xmas.

Old fart....


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## George Wallace (17 Dec 2009)

AWife said:
			
		

> Captloadie, you said downsizing living accommodations... we are in the 3br PMQ, as a family of four, can it really get any worse?
> 
> Feelings of isolation are something I've grown accustomed to as an Army Wife... he's gone a lot, my biggest fear is the financial aspect of it all. How does one purchase vehicles, if its a long term posting, purchasing a house... that sort of thing.



If you are posted outside of Canada, I would advise you to put all of your stuff in storage, sell the auto, and take only the necessary essentials.  In some countries you as a foreigner will not be permitted to "own property", so you will be more or less forced to rent.  Many countries in Europe have fully furnished apartments for rent.  In those countries, if you do get a place that is "unfurnished" it means that there are no lights, no kitchen cabinetry, etc. -- only the four walls, windows and doors.  

Purchasing an auto, or any other large item can usually be done quite simply.  If you own it for a minimum of six months prior to returning to Canada, you will escape duty and taxes on it.   Same goes for any other items you may purchase.  Check on the Rules governing Duty and Taxes, in case this changes.  As Canada no longer has a large contingient overseas, other than those in Afghanistan, most foreign postings are usually attached, or near, to an American Base, and you will have access to their PX.  You will be able to buy most items, small and large (including autos) through the American PX and at very, very reasonable prices, without HST, PST or GST.

Gas prices in most of Europe this Spring was around 1.32 Euro a lt.  I'll let you do the math.   European cars are much more fuel efficient than the cars you find here.  If you have a Diesel auto, you will find that they have as many grades of diesel fuel as there are grades of gasoline.  I also noticed that there was one thing different in gas prices; Super was the same price as Midgrade (I really didn't look to see if Regular was the same price).

One major thing you will face, especially if your spouse is away, is a "Culture Shock".  You spouse will also suffer this and you WILL have one.  How you handle it will dictate how long you can survive in that nation.  I am serious, and have witnessed some who could not last one year outside of Canada.

In all likelihood, someone who goes over for a period of three or more years, especially to Europe, will come back with four or five times what they went over with.  It may even mean  that they have a fire sale of all the items they left home in storage.   ;D


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## old fart (17 Dec 2009)

A word on storage, although we stored alot back here, the CF only pays for unheated storage.  We had a massive mold problem on return.  The subsequent drama with the insurance company lasted almost a year.

We lived in a UK PMQ (poor quality and likely small ) and if you want their 70s period furniture go for it....washer/ dryers and fridge not provided....Brits supply a stove only  We shipped our beds and a large TV that filled the living room.  Have some great pics to show if interested!  Be warned 

Each person has a tax free exemption (10K, but could have changed) on return to Canada.  To take advantage of this WRT a vehicle purchased overseas you have to have owned it for at least a year.  George is wrong on the 6 month bit as applied to purchasing a vehicle overseas with a view to bringing it back.  The 6 month rule applies to everything else you buy.  If the receipt is less than 6 months old, you cannot declare the item as tax free and will pay sales tax and duty.   If you use the personal exemption on a vehicle, you will pay on everything else you ship home.

If you buy stuff oveseas and bring it back, that will eat into each persons tax free entitlement.  For instance, our dining room furniture and office furniture alone ate into a good chunk of our personal exemption. 

The CF will ship a vehicle each way, very hard to dispose of in the UK but not impossible if you wanted to get rid of it.  If you buy overseas with the intent of shipping it home some car companies will also ship the car back for you free, i.e Volvo....As for gas, you will be on tax free status, and save a bundle so drive what the hell you like.  Any vehicle you bring back has to be admissible (check on the RIV.ca site) and be either Canadian spec or California spec.

Wherever you land in Canada on the way back is where you will clear customs, it can take quite a while to go through the customs paperwork.  If your stop in say Nfld, where our plane touched down, does not leave sufficient time you will miss your onward flight.  Customs won't care.

Some folks used to come home with on the QE2, now Queen Mary2 via New York....nice it the sailing schedule fits and you can come with the vehicle, driving up to Canada.

Yours aye, Old fart


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## George Wallace (17 Dec 2009)

As I said, CHECK the Rules governing the Duty and Taxes on bringing an auto home, after a long period overseas.  One rule that kept previous owners on their toes, was that you would have had to own the vehicle for a minimum of one year in Canada, before resale.   If not, Revenue Canada wanted their cut.

Depending on your research into purchasing an auto overseas, and on the length of your being out of Canada, the savings in the purchase price may make up for any Taxes you may have to pay.  Be mindful that in some cases it may be more expensive to purchase overseas.  Do your research.  

If it is your desire to purchase an auto overseas and bring it home, ensure that it meets Canadian standards, mechanically, electically (Lights), and emmission wise.  You will have to be sure to get an "Export" model.

Many of the points that everyone is covering can be confirmed while overseas by people in those locations.  As old fart has pointed out, we may have dated info, and regulations do change from time to time.   In the last eight to six months overseas, in your preparations for your return to Canada, you should get briefings that will cover all the regulations and give pointers as to what you can and can not bring, what Duties and Taxes you may have to pay, what kind of entitlements you may have, what electrical appliances, etc. you may be able to convert and what you will not, and most of all a timetable that you can follow over your last few months to get things done on time.


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## kincanucks (17 Dec 2009)

So in what trade do we offer OUTCAN postings to people unless they either have asked for them or been approached before a decision has been made?  Turn it down?  Asinine.


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## armyvern (17 Dec 2009)

One of my friends was posted outre-mer this past summer; it was offered to him by the career shop. He didn't have any overseas choices listed. He ran with it! (postie)

Also, this past summer, one of my subordinates had a request for a an overseas posting on her file; she screened for it (along with others); she was the one who was chosen to go at the end of it all. And did.


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## AmmoTech90 (18 Dec 2009)

Some points from my posting Outcan

-You get around half your weight allowance to take overseas.  If you want to you can furnish your house with your own furniture.  Even lighting, just change the plugs.
-Electronics, leave them here or sell them.  You can pick up what you need from the US PX, just make sure it is multi-voltage, AND multi-system and you can bring it back with you
-You will receive a Vacation Travel Allowance that varies depending on family size.  For my wife and I (no kids) it was around 10k.  Your spouse has to take at least 5 days leave on the first claim, after that you can take less.  This should be given up front, and you simply fill out a pro-forma at the end of the posting detailing where you spent the money.  Be prepared to be audited if required (keep all receipts for x years, I think 5)
-Vehicles: I arranged to buy the beater from the guy I was taking over from.  When that died, I bought another beater (actually a nice 2003 Ford Mondeo) and sold that to my replacement.  As someone else said, you can buy a new car or cars tax free over there and have them shipped back.  A friend came back with a brand new Volvo and some sort of minivan, all North American spec.
-Fuel: Unless you get it from a NATO source, I was able to claim back approximately 1/2 of my fuel costs, up to I believe 250 litres per month so fuel is comparable or cheaper than Canada.  I think you could claim up to two vehicles at 250 litres per month.
-Pay:  You get allowances, and your pay is converted to local funds at bank rate, much better than you get at any bank or currency exchange.  I cleared in UK pounds approximately what I cleared in CA dollars (number wise) per month (note that I still had money going into CA savings, etc so it that was net of tax, savings, etc).
-If in the UK you (the non-military member) can get a work permit, without a problem.  Not sure about Germany, Italy, etc
-Brit military housing is cheap.  I paid 80 pounds (160-170 dollars) a month.  The house was nice.  This is not always the case.  A friend was posted to the UK as well, the same summer, different base.  They turned down all the PMQs offered, substantiated it, and got a subsidized house.  There is programme which you can opt in or out of that is basically rent/utility sharing.  If you opt in, you pay fixed amount every month depending on your area (it was around $400 for me) and anything above that for rent/heat/power/appliance rental is paid for you.  If you opt in and purchase the appliances you can claim a portion of that as well.  I did not opt in (given my low rent) and bought my appliances from my predecessor.
-Food, you can shop at the US PX nearby, so if you have a craving for Kraft Dinner it can be fulfilled.  Another bonus is the cheap steaks.  Spend $30 on some nice steaks and you can be the hero feeding the entire block at a BBQ.

If you get offered an Outcan posting in Europe take it.  It is a great experience.  You will have the opportunity to travel tons as a family and the work is interesting.  That being said I have encountered people who were completely miserable over there.  They stayed in their house, went back to Canada or the States with their
travel allowance.  We did France (north and south), Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Portugal, Malta, Greece, Switzerland, Ireland, and Austria and my wife went home for her son's wedding.

It is very hard (but not impossible) to lose money Outcan.  Apply a modicum of financial planning and prudence and you will live very comfortably and enjoy your two or three years.


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## AmmoTech90 (18 Dec 2009)

One other thing I missed.

In the UK at least, you submit a 1/4ly claim to claim back the sales tax (I believe I got 14%+ of an 18%+ VAT back).  When you consider that prices over there are taxes in, this is around a 15% sale on any durable good (something you take back with you, or is expected to last more than a year and can be used in Canada (no 220V only appliances)).  Given that, I compared prices around six months before coming home and found that it was cheap to furnish my new house in Canada with Ikea bought in the UK...


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## TimBit (6 Aug 2010)

Initial disclaimer: there may be threads on this topic around, but since I tried searching and couldn`t come up with anything.

Simple question: when posted to the US, do members normally purchase a residence, are they assigned military housing  on or near base or do they rent off the economy? I know there is PLD to offset any regional costs, but I couldn`t find anything about the accomodations themselves.

Just curious...


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## aesop081 (6 Aug 2010)

Freind of mine is posted to Alaska and rents a house up there.


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## dapaterson (6 Aug 2010)

No entitlement to costs related to a house purchase when posted abroad.  On return, house purchase costs per chapter 8 of the CFIRP.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/rel-rei/aps-paa-2009/chapter-chapitre-12-eng.asp


Generally, you'll rent on the economy.  Your sponsor at your gaining unit should be able to provide some assistance.

EDIT to add:  See also the spiffy new OUTCAN website at: http://www.outcan.forces.gc.ca/sites/page-eng.asp?page=6894


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## dapaterson (6 Aug 2010)

And another post to add:  The MFSIs include some provisions to cover rents in excess of Canadian rates.  See:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/10-eng.asp


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## TimBit (6 Aug 2010)

Thank you both. Pretty much what I thought, i.e. same policy for all OUTCAN postings. Nice to confirm though.


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## Pusser (7 Aug 2010)

There is no entitlement to PLD when posted outside Canada, unless you go on IR and leave your dependents behind.  Instead, you will receive Foreign Service Premium and Salary Equalization Factor.  There is also Shelter Share/Allowance to help with the cost of accommodations (this is more complicated than I want to explain at the moment, but the gist of it is that you are not expected to pay more for accommodations than you would in Canada).  All of these things are tax free and usually quite lucrative.  The CF does not provide any benefits for purchasing homes outside Canada.  It's generally assumed that you will rent.  Depending on where you're going and the Status of Forces Agreement, you may be able to live in the other country's military quarters.  I lived in another country's married quarters and found it a very interesting experience.


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## TimBit (9 Aug 2010)

Thanks Pusser, those were what I was referring to. I looked up the site index at Statcan which determines the max entitlement per location, so I know how complicated they are... Thank you for putting things into perspective. May I ask where you were in married quarters?


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## captloadie (25 Aug 2010)

If I were a guessing man, I'd say that Pusser was probably in UK PMQs, and I have heard lots of nightmare stories about them.

Timbit - I'm on an Outcan in Europe right now, and can say that renting a home, as long as you can find one that meets your needs, is in no way a losing affair. The rent and utilities share are based on salary and family size regardless of location, and unless you are a very senior single officer, is much less than even a PMQ on most bases. For instance, my rent share is just under $700 Cdn per month. The actual cost of the home I'm renting is much, much more than that. And I don't have a palace or former castle like some guys on outcan, nor a all season inground pool with whirlpool attached like my buddy had in Panama City Florida when he was on outcan.


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## Pusser (25 Aug 2010)

Yes, I was in a PMQ in the UK.  I think the biggest problem that folks have with British PMQs is that they expect things to be done the same way as in Canada.  The key is to adapt to the British way of thinking.  You don't necessarily have to agree with it and you will occasionally just shake your head and wonder why they seem so obtuse.  However, if you can take it in stride and remember that it's not permanant, you can get on with life and enjoy yourself.  Once we figured out the unwritten rules, we actually had a very good time and the horror stories I've heard of Canadian PMQs are far worse than any I experienced in the UK.  If I were to go back to the UK, I would happily go into a PMQ.


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## dapaterson (25 Aug 2010)

captloadie said:
			
		

> And I don't have a palace or former castle like some guys on outcan, nor a all season inground pool with whirlpool attached like my buddy had in Panama City Florida when he was on outcan.



Once again, the difference between a loadie and a pilot is vividly brought home  ;D


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## Rifleman62 (25 Aug 2010)

My daughter's family has an inground swimming pool and a tornado shelter!


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## Wookilar (10 May 2011)

Hello All,

Did a search and all I found were posts about Gen's and CFE.

Other than through EMA and the CM intranet site, is there anywhere else I can get a list of OutCan postings? I've heard there is some kind of "list" coming out in June timeframe?

Ninerdomestic and I have been doing some research (OutCan website is actually pretty good) but I'd like to hear more opinions. We are especially concerned about the schools as Little Wook has learning disabilities and we would have to ensure that sufficient resources are in place before I even apply for any positions.

Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

Wook


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## Zoomie (10 May 2011)

What trade are you Wook?

Your BPSO is the one that DAGs you green/red for dependant learning disabilities - they might be a good place to start.


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## dimsum (11 May 2011)

I just started the screening process and agree with Zoomie's statement.  Part of the screening paperwork also deals with that, but I can check tomorrow.


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## Wookilar (12 May 2011)

Thanks for putting me on the right track. Talked to one of our BPSO's about the screening yesterday.

I'm Log  O now, there's a few positions coming open this year (or, I should say, there is supposed to be). 9D and I just want to make sure that the support we will need is there before I waste everyone's time (including our own) and DAG Red because of the education aspect.

Wook


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## captloadie (13 May 2011)

Wook,
The Log Branch used to send us an e-mail message every year showing the Outcan postings coming open for the coming APS. I 'remember receiving one last year, but as I can't check my DWAN e-mail very often, I'm not sure the timeframe when it came out. Try contacting your base A1/G1 to find out when this year's message will come out.

As for the education question - check this link on the different locations to see what type of assistance is available.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dem-epcg/pd/pct-mmt/index-eng.asp

The down side is that unless you are looking at an English language country (or French I guess if your dependant can learn in that language), it will be difficult to find a school that provides the additional assistance required for children with learning disabilities. For instance, AFNORTH and Mons (the two main schools for GK and Casteau) don't offer this type of assistance.


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## Wookilar (13 May 2011)

Thanks for the link. I was looking at the DEMs site but did not go far enough into the weeds.

That's that for that then. Not going to put Lil Wook (and us) through years of frustration so I can get a notch on the resume.

Thanks for the links and info everyone.

Wook


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## dapaterson (13 May 2011)

There are some "outcan" positions in the USA; those might still be on the radar for you as it's more likely that you'd have access to the types of schools you require.


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## Aerobicrunner (13 May 2011)

The following link on the DIN has all OutCan postings for all Log Offrs and dates when they are open:
http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgmc/engraph/APS_e.asp


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## Zoomie (13 May 2011)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are some "outcan" positions in the USA;



LOL - some...  There are more OUTCAN positions in the USA than anywhere else.  Close to 700 CF personnel.


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## Zoomie (13 May 2011)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I just started the screening process and agree with Zoomie's statement.



You are screening rather late Dim - did someone DAG Red?  Where are you trying to go?  I did all my screening for this APS back in Jan.


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## jpljpl (18 Dec 2011)

Does anyone know if there are OutCan posts for junior officers - I saw some senior officers/NCOs positions - lets say for a Signals Officer - Lt.

Cheers!


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## Occam (18 Dec 2011)

jpljpl said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if there are OutCan posts for junior officers - I saw some senior officers/NCOs positions - lets say for a Signals Officer - Lt.
> 
> Cheers!



They would be pretty few and far between.  I can give you a more accurate answer tomorrow, but for example, CELE has only one Capt/Lt position OutCan - and that's in Maryland.  I wouldn't expect Signals (or any other officer occupation) to be much different.


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## DonaldMcL (18 Dec 2011)

jpljpl said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if there are OutCan posts for junior officers - I saw some senior officers/NCOs positions - lets say for a Signals Officer - Lt.
> 
> Cheers!



Login to EMAA and check. Should be a listing of all possible postings for your trade, both within Canada and OutCan. It'll even give you dates and names of who you'd be replacing.


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## dimsum (4 Jan 2012)

I didn't want to start a new thread, so I decided to add here.  

With my OUTCAN posting, the CF will deposit my pay and allowances into my Cdn bank account, while I need to maintain an Australian bank account for TD and claims.  Hopefully someone here with OUTCAN experience in Australia can help with ideas on how to transfer $ from my Canadian to Australian accounts without getting totally gouged by the banks/exchanges?  

Thanks!


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## PPCLI Guy (5 Jan 2012)

That sounds odd.  I have been OUTCAN in the UK (95-98) and in the US (09-10), and both times my pay was deposited in my local (ie Brit or Merican) account.


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## AmmoTech90 (5 Jan 2012)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> That sounds odd.  I have been OUTCAN in the UK (95-98) and in the US (09-10), and both times my pay was deposited in my local (ie Brit or Merican) account.



I was thinking the same thing, but checked on the VCDS/OUTCAN website and sure enough they say that pay is normal for small OUTCANs.  I would suggest finding out how often you get to put in claims for exchange rate fees.


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## dimsum (6 Jan 2012)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> I was thinking the same thing, but checked on the VCDS/OUTCAN website and sure enough they say that pay is normal for small OUTCANs.  I would suggest finding out how often you get to put in claims for exchange rate fees.



Hmm, I must have missed that in my reading.  I wonder why that is the case.

OK then; on an OUTCAN HHT, since you'd be just starting up your account in the host country and wire transfers take a week or so to clear, how have people put down security deposits/bonds while in the HHT timeframe?  A bunch of traveller's checks?  A bag o'money?   ???


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## AmmoTech90 (6 Jan 2012)

You might have this already.
http://www.outcan.forces.gc.ca/sites/page-eng.asp?page=6894
Aus is administered by MFSS
http://www.vcds-vcemd.forces.gc.ca/sites/page-eng.asp?page=8539
Cpl Rioux would appear to be your clerk.
http://www.vcds-vcemd.forces.gc.ca/sites/page-eng.asp?page=8543 

They should have some answers.


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## AmmoTech90 (6 Jan 2012)

Here's the answer, buried in the FAQ.  The expense to you is rolled into one of the allowances, Post Living Allowance.



> Post Living Allowance (PLA):  PLA assists the member at post if the cost of living exceeds that of the NCR – basically a form of Post Living Differential, but applicable to OUTCAN postings.  It applies to a member who is posted, attach posted or attached posted (temporary) to a place of duty outside Canada, including each member of a service couple. It varies according to your pay level.  A mbr receiving PLA is not entitled to Separation Expense.
> 
> What it covers:  PLA compensates for the higher costs of purchasing goods and services at the post (ex:  internet/satellite/cable installation/services, groceries, gas,* local banking (Rate Of Exchange losses/transfer fees)*, clothing, restaurants, extraordinary postal rates above and beyond proscribed rates for mailing/shipping, etc):  generally any cost of living expenses higher than Ottawa and based on the Post Index for that position.
> 
> Further details at:  http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgcb/cbi/pdf/CBI_10_Sec_15.pdf



Edit: A link that works: http://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/index.php?sid=16&hl=1&lang=eng#tc-tm_1_3


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## Inverted (6 Jan 2012)

Dimsum,

Sorry I should have mentioned in my PM that one of the things considered in the PLA is the exchange rate.  

When I first got Down Under I asked about having my pay sent to my Aussie account. MFSS responded that there was no way of setting up a foreign payment in PeopleSoft (or HRMS or whatever the pay system is called these days), had I known that people in the States and the UK could do it I would have pushed harder. Being paid to your Aussie account would make life much easier.

In the end don't worry too much about the cost of the foreign exchange, through the company I mentioned to you, I lose about an extra 1.5 cents over the bank rate, not too bad. Plus with the amount of money you make on Foreign Service, PLA and PSA, you won't even notice it. After getting used to these allowances, I don't know how I'm going to afford to live back in Canada!!  :'(

Cheers


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## dimsum (6 Jan 2012)

Thanks Inverted for all the info on here and elsewhere.  I'll definitely push through the clerks at MFSS.  

I just learned about the US, UK and SHAPE HQ allotments over xmas break when I was visiting Colorado Springs.  Bit of a surprise to me too.


----------



## captloadie (8 Jan 2012)

If you have two credit cards, you could set up two paypal accounts, one Canadian, one AUS. It will allow you to quickly transfer funds from one to another, and the rates weren't that much different from the banks.


----------



## Zoomie (14 Jan 2012)

On my HHT - the CF SOR down here cut us cheques for the security deposit and first months rent.  I immediately deposited them in my new US bank account and wrote cheques to the landlord.  Don't know how this will apply to you in the absence of an SOR or any support.


----------



## dimsum (16 Jan 2012)

Thanks for the info.

Now, to slightly switch gears, I'm re-reading the stuff the High Commission sent me and they talk about being a Deemed Resident while overseas, and that if I give financial institutions in Canada my Australian address, then they would apply a non-resident tax on it.  This got me wondering what others did; did you not change your Cdn address and just have mail forwarded overseas, change it to someone else's address (parents, etc) or just go with it and change to the OUTCAN address (and pay the tax)?  

Also, speaking of taxes, how did tax returns get filed?  

Thanks again.


----------



## AmmoTech90 (16 Jan 2012)

I set my residence as Ontario based on the Belleville PO Box, bank account and familial ties there.  I then just filed Ontario tax returns.  You could go for deemed resident in which case you fill out special tax return.  When I was OUTCAN they discouraged deemed residents.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/t4131/t4131-e.html
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tp/it221r3-consolid/it221r3-consolid-e.html


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## captloadie (17 Jan 2012)

I have all my mail from Canada forwarded to the Belleville post office, as this saves anyone mailing something a whole lotta money. Some things though I have sent directly to my Dutch address (Mondial insurance checks, Friends sending Christmas cards, etc.)

For the tax thing, I too kept everything as if I was still living in Ontario. The main reason for this was because I could still use an online tax program and netfile. If you do it the other way, you have to file a papercopy, as it won't let you netfile (unless things have chnaged this year). I also noticed the the amount I paid in taxes was slightly less than if I did it as a deemed resident. Will this stand up to an audit? I'm not sure, but I wasn't given any direction saying what I was doing was wrong.


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## Inverted (17 Jan 2012)

I haven't bothered with the Belleville address, most of my mail is sent direct to Australia. For things like Revenue Canada and my bank, my wife has family in Alberta so I use their address, this works out pretty well come tax time. I will caveat this by saying that if Revenue Canada decided to audit me I would probably be %^$*ed! 

The only thing that surprised me was that according to my pay statements I pay no provincial taxes. Not being a tax expert I am assuming that MFSS has switched me to the deemed resident federal tax rate, then come tax time when I file Alberta taxes it balances out the difference between the deemed resident rate and the Alberta rate, which results in a nice return.

I realize this is probably a backwards way of doing things but I'm afraid of having MFSS touch my pay too much. This is the same organization that took 16 months to get my allowances right (and I won't even get into the mess they caused when I delpoyed). 

Cheers


----------



## Zoomie (20 Jan 2012)

FWIW - CF members who are OUTCAN are considered Deemed Resident's of Canada.  You don't pay provincial income tax - instead you pay something in the order of 45% of the federal tax rate.  No big deal to file this way, for some you might actually get more of a refund.  It's also audit-proof, and legal.


----------



## captloadie (26 Jan 2012)

Zoomie said:
			
		

> FWIW - CF members who are OUTCAN are considered Deemed Resident's of Canada.  You don't pay provincial income tax - instead you pay something in the order of 45% of the federal tax rate.  No big deal to file this way, for some you might actually get more of a refund.  It's also audit-proof, and legal.



Actually, according to this new brief I just found, we are actually considered factual residents, and do out taxes as if we still lived in Canada.

http://www.europe.forces.gc.ca/Resources/UK/Ruislip_DetUK/Documents/Briefing/Canada%20Revenue%20Agency%20UK%20Outreach.pdf


----------



## Zoomie (26 Jan 2012)

I just read that brief and it doesn't categorically state anything different from the CRA website - which pointedly states:



> Deemed residents
> 
> You may be a deemed resident of Canada for tax purposes if you have severed residential ties with Canada and you are a:
> 
> (1)  member of the Canadian Forces at any time in the tax year;



Factual Residents are those whom travel back and forth between Canada and their place of residence.


----------



## captloadie (26 Jan 2012)

Right in the section you quoted it says you have to have severed your canadian ties in order to be a deemed resident. Read a little more of the reg and you will see it is very difficult to sever ties as a CF member, especially if you keep a Canadian bank account your pay goes into, own any property in Canada, or have your F&E stored in LTS.


----------



## 405sqn (26 Jan 2012)

Captloadie is absolutely right - you file taxes as a Factual resident of Canada, normally in the last province you were posted. Therefore your bank accounts, your house (if you kept one), your storage items, etc all add up to "substantial ties" back to that province. If you were on IR prior to posting, this could probably be used to change the equation. 

Just returned from three years in Europe, having kept a house and all banking in Ottawa. I filed Ontario taxes and know I am on solid ground in the event of audit. Here's why - we were briefed before departure by a Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) foreign tax rep of the tax considerations to consider when OUTCAN. He outlined a case study where a CF member was posted from Quebec to Europe and tried to claim Deemed Resident taxes. On audit, he was assessed to be a Factual Resident of Quebec and had to pay back bucketloads in back taxes. 

In summary, just because your buddy recommends something after having got away with it doesn't mean it's legal. Consult the experts and you won't go wrong - they reside at CRA and can give you the straight info without bias. How you decide to apply that advice is up to you. 

Forewarned is forearmed!

Cheers.


----------



## 405sqn (26 Jan 2012)

More info for the discussion regarding foreign banking arrangements. At the smaller posts (I have experienced this on both my OUTCAN postings), your admin support is provided on a very limited and remote basis. Your pay will go into a Canadian account and you are responsible to get it into the local currency at your expense using your own ingenuity. There are no shortcuts here, so don't fight the system. Instead, ADAPT. It is far less work.  

These days, online banking systems allow you far more flexibility than you had in the past to pay bills. Some of them must he paid locally, which may require the establishment of a local bank account to pay by cheques, etc. (in the Australian case, the bank taxes drove me nuts!) 

Speak to the management of the local bank in your country of posting about lifting the 5 day hold time on transfers. Buy the best account possible in Canada to minimize your withdrawal fees (eg TD "Select Service" account waives all foreign wihdrawal fees for one monthly fee). Raise your withdrawal limits to suit higher cash usage (there is a simultaneous risk to your account if your card/PIN get jacked - it happened to me in Italy - so be careful!). Pay as many bills as possible through e-billing and online payments. See whether you can set up a Standing Advance through your CFSU for official expenses such as rent, TD claims, etc. 

Keep your Canadian credit cards active and use them often. You'll pay exchange rates no matter how you slice it, either through foreign transfers to your local bank or on your card. 

Foreign postings and banking are not impossible, just different. Every country has different systems and each post has unique requirements. During my last posting to Italy, I spent three years there and didn't open a local account - I managed everything from my Canadian accounts. I opened one "Cadillac" account and used it as the funnel for everything by transferring from other accounts as necessary. 

You can make the system work with a little thought. I am preparing now for my next OUTCAN tour (to Africa) and will adjust the plan as necessary to suit the local conditions. 

Cheers.


----------



## dimsum (26 Jan 2012)

405sqn said:
			
		

> Captloadie is absolutely right - you file taxes as a Factual resident of Canada, normally in the last province you were posted. Therefore your bank accounts, your house (if you kept one), your storage items, etc all add up to "substantial ties" back to that province. If you were on IR prior to posting, this could probably be used to change the equation.



Thanks for the info.  I was wondering how this would work in my case though; I don`t plan on storing anything here, have sold my house and my bank account (TD) has never been changed since I got it in ON.  I have opened an HSBC Advance account in BC and plan on using it as my pay funnel (with the instant transfer to HSBC Australia.)  Would I still be able to claim factual residency in BC due to my account only? 

(I'll also give CRA a shout and confirm.)


----------



## 405sqn (26 Jan 2012)

I'm no expert on all of the rules, I can only relate my experience. That said, it looks like you are being posted from BC and will keep your ties with that province. Based on this, chances are good that filing BC taxes will be the safest route. As you note, a quick consult with CRA will yield the facts. 

Cheers.


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## armyvern (26 Jan 2012)

405sqn said:
			
		

> ...
> If you were on IR prior to posting, this could probably be used to change the equation.
> ...



An IR posting will not change the equation. Having done many IR postings now, and having spoke with CRA directly on the issue, an IR member is supposed to be filing taxes based upon where the principal residence (ie the family) is located.

Ergo, if your residence is in Gagetown, NB and your are posted IR to Edmonton, AB - you should be paying NB taxes for the duration of your IR posting (that's where you've told the CF your principal residence is at and ergo why you are entitled to IR); if you then found yourself and your family posted outcan to another spot, your last primary residence is still considered NB where your ties are/were 'officially' at.

Edited to add: Yep, I know there's IR pers in different provinces claiming taxes at whichever is the lowest tax rate. No sympathy from me coming when they get nailed claiming AB if their family and home is in NB for example. Would like to see the CF nail them with fraud too for claiming IR in the CF (stating monthly on their claims that family and residence is NB) for being separated from their principal residence, but claiming that principal residence is in AB (for example) when tax time comes.


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## dimsum (26 Jan 2012)

More for info than anything else (in case some reads the board afterwards), this is what CRA had to say:

If you sell your house and have nothing in storage (ie. your only residential tie to Canada is a bank account), you are a Deemed Resident.  I think the kicker was if you had a house or stuff in storage.


----------



## armyvern (26 Jan 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> More for info than anything else (in case some reads the board afterwards), this is what CRA had to say:
> 
> If you sell your house and have nothing in storage (ie. your only residential tie to Canada is a bank account), you are a Deemed Resident.  I think the kicker was if you had a house or stuff in storage.



Well, most outcan postings see _stuff_ (perhaps not everything, but certainly some) placed into LTS at the location where the last principal residence is located.


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## 405sqn (26 Jan 2012)

For ref, recommend anyone looking for a CRA opinion contact the International Tax section:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/cntct/international-eng.html


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## 405sqn (26 Jan 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> An IR posting will not change the equation. Having done many IR postings now, and having spoke with CRA directly on the issue, an IR member is supposed to be filing taxes based upon where the principal residence (ie the family) is located.


Good point. I was (naively) assuming that pers were filing their taxes based on the location of their family to start. Even then, some might try to file the lower tax place upon posting OUTCAN. So you're right, those trying to get out of higher tax payments are probably already doing it....


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## Zoomie (26 Jan 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> If you sell your house and have nothing in storage (ie. your only residential tie to Canada is a bank account), you are a Deemed Resident.  I think the kicker was if you had a house or stuff in storage.


This would apply to OUTCAN pers posted to USA.  We are all considered deemed residents - as we are not permitted LTS and almost all of us sell our homes before coming down here.

In the end, I'm not too concerned about an audit - the tax rate that a deemed resident receives is equivalent to what a factual resident of Ontario would get.  Except that I won't be on the hook to pay any of the criminal OHIP extras that Ontario currently bills CF members and their families.


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## captloadie (27 Jan 2012)

I did my taxes both ways last year, just to see what the difference would be. Even when paying the max OHIP tariff, my tax return was larger as a factual resident than a deemed resident. That being said, it will be different for each individual.

On a separate note, I'm now starting to research all the requirements for returning to Canada. Who would have thought getting back would be three times more difficult than leaving. Especially when my new home will be in Cold Lake


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## armyvern (27 Jan 2012)

captloadie said:
			
		

> I did my taxes both ways last year, just to see what the difference would be. Even when paying the max OHIP tariff, my tax return was larger as a factual resident than a deemed resident. That being said, it will be different for each individual.
> 
> On a separate note, I'm now starting to research all the requirements for returning to Canada. Who would have thought getting back would be three times more difficult than leaving. Especially when my new home will be in Cold Lake



Good luck!!  >


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## 405sqn (1 Feb 2012)

Found this page on the internet to help frame the situation regarding how Canada Revenue Service looks at individual situations for tax purposes when posted OUTCAN.  "Residential ties" remains the key determining factor for figuring out whether to file as a Factual Resident or a Deemed Resident, for which specific advice from their experts is the best method.  Note that these are the only two choices available for a CF member posted abroad.

You'll see a section at the bottom for CF Overseas School Staff - these are the civilian teachers at schools such as the NATO School in Geilenkirchen, not CF members.

Happy reading! 

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ndvdls/gvt_mpl-eng.html


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## KennyE (2 Feb 2012)

For those who have taken OUTCAN postings in Europe, what was the most difficult part of living there? Was it the initial move and getting settled in? I have two school age children and I think it would be easier for them to live in a country that speaks English or French as they are pretty fluent in French.


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## 405sqn (2 Feb 2012)

It depends on the country, as each one of them has its own particular quirks.  In Italy, the biggest issues surrounded bureaucracy, driving habits and language (and I'm quite good in Italian).  You have to learn how to set those issues aside, accept that you will never change their ways and enjoy your brief stay in their country/culture.  If you let the annoyances get to you, you'll end up being bitter and wanting to go home early.  The only loser in that deal is you.


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## Transporter (20 May 2013)

Hi all. Have been a Forum lurker for some time now and have finally decided to become a full card carrying member by registering for an account  . I read an interesting article *[deleted]* today about possible cuts to OUTCAN benefits i.e. FSP, housing allowances, etc. Anyone have any inside info on what is being kicked-around in Ottawa in this regard? Is there anything to it or is it just rumour? We can all speculate but am looking to see if anyone has any factual info on what, if anything, is being considered.

Many thanks. 

Edited to meet requirements of this post. Topic discussion may continue, origin article not to be mentioned. - Milnet Staff


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## PuckChaser (21 May 2013)

Just read the article, and if its true, wheres the issue? FSP should be a taxable benefit unless you're in a Risk/Hardship 2 area. Is FSP nontaxable for those in Europe currently?

Regardless of the cuts, there are always people willing to go OUTCAN as long as it remains financially viable for their family. I have a feeling that if they are cutting benefits, they'll be doing it just like IR, attempting to remove the "gravy train" aspects.


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## dimsum (21 May 2013)

I haven't seen anything come from the OUTCAN clerks regarding cutting benefits yet, but frankly I wouldn't be surprised.


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## dapaterson (21 May 2013)

Apparently DFAIT is changing rules for some benefits.  As those benefits are the same for CF members, the DFAIT changes will impact CF members as well.


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## Transporter (21 May 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Just read the article, and if its true, wheres the issue? FSP should be a taxable benefit unless you're in a Risk/Hardship 2 area. Is FSP nontaxable for those in Europe currently?
> 
> Regardless of the cuts, there are always people willing to go OUTCAN as long as it remains financially viable for their family. I have a feeling that if they are cutting benefits, they'll be doing it just like IR, attempting to remove the "gravy train" aspects.



If there is anything factual about what I read, the "issue" is that this continues a trend of cutting benefits to service members is an effort to treat us no differently than any other public servant, and I believe there is a distinction there that ought to be recognized. So what if the government is looking at changing DFAIT benefits. Why should those changes have to be applied to military as well? It just seems that all we hear about "benefits" these days is cuts and elimination of entitlements.

Why, in your opinion, should FSP be taxable (and yes, all FSP whether Ops FSP or OUTCAN posting FSP is non-taxable)? Are they paying PuckChasers that much money these days that they want to pay more taxes? I don't know about you, but I pay plenty of my hard-earned paycheck in taxes... and I don't think I'd consider FSP a gravy train.


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## dapaterson (21 May 2013)

There is a tremendous sense of entitlement in certain sectors of the CF.

A Reg F Cpl (no spec) makes in excess of $56K before any allowances.  Not bad for someone in their early 20s with minimal education and experience.  Every Reg F Maj is paid in excess of $100K per year before any allowances.  Allowances such as LDA and SDA are paid for a posting message, regardless of whether or not the individual actually experiences the conditions that the allowance is supposed to compensate for.

I have not seen any details on these proposed changes.  However, CF members would be hard pressed to identify how they are hard done by.  DFAIT personnel have more restrictive retirement conditions, lower rates of pay... if anyone should be complaining about these changes it's DFAIT staff, not CF members.


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## PuckChaser (21 May 2013)

Transporter said:
			
		

> Why, in your opinion, should FSP be taxable (and yes, all FSP whether Ops FSP or OUTCAN posting FSP is non-taxable)? Are they paying PuckChasers that much money these days that they want to pay more taxes? I don't know about you, but I pay plenty of my hard-earned paycheck in taxes... and I don't think I'd consider FSP a gravy train.



My LDA is taxed as I'm posted to a field unit. Anyone posted to a ship has their SDA taxed. If you're posted OUTCAN, why should your FSP be a non-taxable benefit when everyone else has to pay tax because of where they are posted? If the guys that were in Camp Mirage were paying tax on their FSP/Risk/Hardship, there is no reason why someone in an Embassy or NATO headquarters shouldn't be paying tax on their FSP. This is especially true if we're getting more out of the same FSP that the DFAIT employees get. Why are you so special that they're taxed and you aren't while working side by side?


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## Eye In The Sky (21 May 2013)

AIRCRA and PLD are taxable benefits as well.


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## 392 (21 May 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If the guys that were in Camp Mirage were paying tax on their FSP/Risk/Hardship, there is no reason why someone in an Embassy or NATO headquarters shouldn't be paying tax on their FSP.



No CF pers in Mirage were paying taxes on FSP/risk/hardship. Base pay yes, those allowances, no.


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## PuckChaser (21 May 2013)

Capt. Happy said:
			
		

> No CF pers in Mirage were paying taxes on FSP/risk/hardship. Base pay yes, those allowances, no.



Thanks for the clarification, I was under the impression everything was taxed.


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## captloadie (21 May 2013)

Having recently returned from an OUTCAN, I can say that there is a very large gravy train. I pay more now to live in Canada than I did when I was OUTCAN, and I'd say my standard of living has actually decreased by moving back to Canada. Now, every location is different, so I won't speak for others who may have been posted to less hospitable locations. 

Would I go OUTCAN again if they reduced some of the allowances and made others taxable? It would depend on the location, but likely yes, as it was an experience my family positively enjoyed.


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## DAA (21 May 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Apparently DFAIT is changing rules for some benefits.  As those benefits are the same for CF members, the DFAIT changes will impact CF members as well.



The bulk of CF benefits are based on the FSD's (Foreign Service Directives).  So if DFAIT is changing the playing field, CF benefits will be impacted.  If they lose, we lose.


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## stokerwes (21 May 2013)

My first tour(2001) I paid taxes on everything. The tax free part was because of pressure on the Feds. Because the Americans were not paying taxes on their equivalent to FSP and Hazard Duty Allowance. The CDS at the time was down to visit and this was brought up.
He said that the tax free thing would never happen. Next year all FSP and Hazard pay was tax free.
I don't think it should be taxed. But then again I don't think we should be paying federal or provincial taxes on money we make outside of Canada. A few times I have been out of Canada 300+ days in a year and not in Europe at an Embassy.
The list goes on.
Doesn't surprise me though. 
Nickle and Dime the troops/


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## Strike (21 May 2013)

stokerwes said:
			
		

> Nickle and Dime the troops/



Everyone is being nickle and dime'd.  Why should we be any different?


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## dimsum (21 May 2013)

captloadie said:
			
		

> Having recently returned from an OUTCAN, I can say that there is a very large gravy train. I pay more now to live in Canada than I did when I was OUTCAN, and I'd say my standard of living has actually decreased by moving back to Canada. Now, every location is different, so I won't speak for others who may have been posted to less hospitable locations.
> 
> Would I go OUTCAN again if they reduced some of the allowances and made others taxable? It would depend on the location, but likely yes, as it was an experience my family positively enjoyed.



Same here.  Even though the gravy train is less gravy (apparently), the experience and contacts you get still make up for it, depending on the location.  YMMV.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (21 May 2013)

Strike said:
			
		

> Everyone is being nickle and dime'd.  Why should we be any different?



Universality of service


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## dapaterson (21 May 2013)

How does that apply in this instance?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie (21 May 2013)

She asked why we shouldn't be Nicole and dimed. I gave a reason. Some think that soldiers the true ambassadors for our country should be provided some perks.


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## dapaterson (21 May 2013)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> She asked why we shouldn't be Nicole and dimed. I gave a reason. Some think that soldiers the true ambassadors for our country should be provided some perks.



Like $56K a year to a 23 year old with no training or experience outside the military?  Like allowances to compensate for conditions that CF members may not experience while in receipt of them?  Like the ability to retire with an immediate annuity at age 42?  Heck, even Members of Parliament have to wait until age 60 to draw their pensions...


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## blacktriangle (21 May 2013)

There's a lot of things broken in the CF, but pay and benefits aren't among them.


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## McG (21 May 2013)

There are certainly things broken within compensation and benefits.  Consider the previously alluded to LDA and SDA which reward posting messages as opposed to actually rewarding time in the field or at sea.


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## dimsum (21 May 2013)

I think we may be getting sidetracked here, but the benefits (FSP) that are being looked at are only applicable for pers posted OUTCAN for a full posting, not people deployed (ie. Kabul).  The last direction when I was in KAF attached to the Aussies was that Operations FSP is a different kettle of fish.  

Can't remember the specifics right now, but a lot of the foreign service benefits is due to cost (and exchange rate) differences between Canada and the country you're posted to.  For example, it's much more expensive to buy groceries, etc. in Australia than in Canada; for some common things like fruit and veg, you're looking at double the price.  Another part of our allowances is a rent allowance, as in some places houses/apts are a lot more expensive.  The list goes on.

As I've said before, I totally understand that everyone is getting budgets slashed and we need to save when we can.  I just don't want people to get confused with what people get on deployments vice those who are actually posted outside Canada for a few years.


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## Scoobie Newbie (22 May 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Like $56K a year to a 23 year old with no training or experience outside the military?  Like allowances to compensate for conditions that CF members may not experience while in receipt of them?  Like the ability to retire with an immediate annuity at age 42?  Heck, even Members of Parliament have to wait until age 60 to draw their pensions...



I totally agree. Some would argue that, that is a small price to pay for working for an organization that can move you yearly if they really wanted to or send you to the next shit hole on the map. I understand people sign up knowing full well what they are getting into and the benefits we do receive can offset the other half of the shit sandwich.


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## dapaterson (22 May 2013)

All my previous points being said, military leaders cannot be come complacent and must remain engaged with political leadership to ensure we don't sacrifice compensation & benefits for service members.


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## Wolf1412 (22 May 2013)

I am currently OutCan for the 3rd time posting and have 6 tours. Each on of those is directly refelcted in the FSP points I have earned. When they seperated points in 2003 I could accept that and it was directly related to how you accumulated Harship Bonus Pounts.

The FSP points that each person here has recieved over the years are points earned for service outside of Canada. Cuttting the related allowances is no different then your monthly being cut and if that was to happen it would draw much more attention.

You earn your rank and related pay raises, your earn your FSP Points. I can accept FSP being taxed but then maybe it should be reflected in our pension. but cutting FSP!!!!! :rage: I reiterate that these are EARNED. I am sure no one wants anything they earned taken away.

That being said, this is only in the discussion phase and nothing is concrete.


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## stokerwes (24 May 2013)

Wolf1412 said:
			
		

> I am currently OutCan for the 3rd time posting and have 6 tours. Each on of those is directly refelcted in the FSP points I have earned. When they seperated points in 2003 I could accept that and it was directly related to how you accumulated Harship Bonus Pounts.
> 
> The FSP points that each person here has recieved over the years are points earned for service outside of Canada. Cuttting the related allowances is no different then your monthly being cut and if that was to happen it would draw much more attention.
> 
> ...


Unless your a Mar Eng. PO1 Spec 2 promoted after Feb 2012.
I had to get that in.
Other posters keep mentioning a young person making over 50k a year is enough benefit. Where else could you trust a junior employee to watch over millions of dollars worth of equipment? How many other jobs can fine you and either dock your pay or place you in cells for your behaviour, even if not on duty? The pay that all CF members earn is well deserved. Taking money out of soldiers pockets to meet budget targets is just wrong and in my opinion lazy. There are many,many other ways that money can be saved in the CF.


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## stokerwes (24 May 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Like $56K a year to a 23 year old with no training or experience outside the military?  Like allowances to compensate for conditions that CF members may not experience while in receipt of them?  Like the ability to retire with an immediate annuity at age 42?  Heck, even Members of Parliament have to wait until age 60 to draw their pensions...


What about the risks and responsibilities that 23 year has to deal with? No other employer is going to move you every few years, often at short notice.  Not all 23 year olds in the military have no training or experience. I would say the majority of the pers that are in the conditions that warrant allowances are not there for the money. If they are the amount is really a pittance. 
How many MP's are broken beyond repair either physically or mentally after 25 years of service? I'd hazard to guess there are a lot more CF members injured than MP's.
CF members are unique in all aspects. To compare us to any other group is apples to oranges. Any compensation or benefits any of us get are well earned and deserved. Are their people that abuse it? Of course. Should the majority suffer because of this? Absolutely not.
Money can be saved elsewhere in the CF. 
I haven't seen very much of the tail being reduced yet, aside from the changes to IR. What I am seeing is the tooth end slowly get chipped away. 
Leave the compensation and benefits alone.


----------



## McG (24 May 2013)

I think the argument is that the base pay accounts for the uniquenesses of being a service member.  There is no legitimate reason to expect that other sorts of compensation should be artificially inflated for reasons unrelated to what is being compensates.


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## DAA (24 May 2013)

This is not an exercise in saving money, far from it!!!   OUTCAN benefits, where it applies to "operations" change on a "quarterly" basis.  So from the outset of an operation, the remuneration factor should or will be relatively high.  Once, CF pers are on the ground, it should be expected that the conditions improve somewhat and that's just the way things happen.

If you want a real head scratcher, going back 10 years ago or so and I am only going by "memory".........

Personnel posted to "Tampa, Florida" as part of the support element to OP ATHENA (I think) were entitled to both Hardship and Risk Allowance.

So changes to OUTCAN benefits are always ongoing and not as a result of GoC cutbacks.


----------



## dimsum (24 May 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> This is not an exercise in saving money, far from it!!!   OUTCAN benefits, where it applies to "operations" change on a "quarterly" basis.  So from the outset of an operation, the remuneration factor should or will be relatively high.  Once, CF pers are on the ground, it should be expected that the conditions improve somewhat and that's just the way things happen.



I was under the impression that Ops FSP is counted differently than OUTCAN Posting FSP?  I know that Ops FSP gets looked at every quarter, but I thought that Posting FSP is looked at less (annually comes to mind).

Again, after only reading the brief article there and without further info, I thought the cuts were only to OUTCAN Posting FSP vice Ops FSP.  Happy (well, not "happy") to be proven wrong though.


----------



## mad dog 2020 (25 May 2013)

Quote from: dapaterson on May 21, 2013, 21:27:00
Like $56K a year to a 23 year old with no training or experience outside the military?  Like allowances to compensate for conditions that CF members may not experience while in receipt of them?  Like the ability to retire with an immediate annuity at age 42?  Heck, even Members of Parliament have to wait until age 60 to draw their pensions...

I am at odds with this.  In this day and age it is hard to get many young people to step outside their comfort zones. So their life experience is PAY to take a 2-3 yr program in college , maybe live at home and then search for a job. So to pack up at 18 on your own and join up is cutting the cord abruptly.  Then a condensed job focused program with immediate job placement.  And like mentioned the responsibility and trust of people's lives in your hands.  
Our youth unemployment is high, yet the oil fields are crying for staff and willing to train.  Yet we look off shore as many do not want to leave their friends and family for 72K plus......
So the young service members are like pioneers that ventured off to seek new adventures... 
I say leave the pay and benefits alone for the troops or like mentioned if you want to tax it, make it eligible for pension calculation.  
People can collect pogie  and stay at home until a job comes along or do something and get a trade.  The rank and file serve a purpose to be there just in case and keep things working.
I still recall those pictures of men drilling with broomsticks at Exibition Park when WWII came along. The Canadian Forces was very small then too. 
Our young people and basically ALL members sacrifice a lot if you consider society norm. The moves, the separations, the family or support team that mans the home front.  In the scheme of things it all balances out. Look at other areas that have already been identified over the years and have insulated themselves. 
A guy told me a story once on how a home based support person was demanding equitable pay and benefits of a serving soldier at the same unit. The general said: The reason Why is, if I tell him, he is going out tomorrow he goes........ If I told you that you would put in your 2 weeks notice. That is why he gets what he gets.


----------



## Kevin26 (17 Nov 2013)

Hey everyone,

I'm finally getting close to my graduation from university and the time to apply to the CAF is fast approaching! In that regard, I've been putting a lot more thought into exactly what positions I'd like to apply for. I'll be graduating in June 2014 from a mechanical engineering program and I've always been interested in the Navy, so I'm leaning towards the two NTO positions: Marine Systems Engineering Officer (MSE) and Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officer (NCSE). Based on the research I've done so far, I believe I have a fairly good idea of what to expect in the short term; from training, to what duties can be expected while posted at sea, etc. What is not terribly clear to me are the long term opportunities for NTOs and whether it makes a considerable difference depending on which of the two you pick.

I found this post from some time ago which detailed the career progression of NTOs, saying:


> Employment opportunities and patterns vary greatly for NTOs, and there are a number of positions available to acquire the breadth of experience required for NAV ENG employment.  Tours of duty in NDHQ in general, and ADM (Mat)/DGMEPM and DGMPD(L&S) in particular, are considered essential to NTO development, particularly during the post-HOD period.


 and,


> The spectrum of opportunities outside of the mainstream technical field is far-reaching.  These ‘purple’ positions denote jobs in the wider CF that broaden an officer’s appreciation of the overall CF and yield a greater understanding of the corporate organization.  Positions in areas such as recruiting, training and leadership academies, personnel management, UN missions are valuable to the NTO and the Navy.


[Source: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/89955.0]

I am most interested in what has been said about UN missions, and in general, any opportunity to be posted to another country (US, anywhere in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc.). Positions that involve liaising with Washington, NATO, and NORAD also all sound extremely interesting to me. So with all this in mind, here are my primary questions:

- Which (if either) of the MSE and NCSE occupations is more likely to have the chance to serve abroad, and how often do international opportunities come up?
- Is there an occupation (even outside the scope of the Navy and engineering positions) that is better suited to my interests?

I apologize for the lengthy format of my query!

Thanks,
Kevin


----------



## JBP (23 May 2014)

I've been poking and prodding the career manager and my chain of command over the past year and was put up as a primary for an OUTCAN guy whom dagged red.

What I'm wondering is if having a family (2 kids and a wife) deters them from posting us OUTCAN due to expenses? My oldest will require going to school (obviously expensive internationally). I know 'officially' they cannot say no just because you have a family, but with this years' fiscal constraints, can I kiss my hopes of OUTCAN good bye during my career?

Some details: IST, scheduled to be promoted to MCpl 1 Jul 2014. International experience already with Exs, Ops and a tour, extensive training and quals. Towing an excited, supportive family with me along this crazy life!


----------



## dimsum (23 May 2014)

This happened prior to the current budget, but my counterpart brought his 2 kids and wife over.  Personally-speaking, I don't think it would be an issue especially if you're being considered for a backfill due to someone dagging red.


----------



## Happy Guy (23 May 2014)

I am on OUTCAN now.

People being posted this APS are coming to this location with their spouses and children.  Our children are entitled to go to private schools here.  Based on this I do not see any evidence of OUTCAN postings being overly adversely affected by budgetary constraints.

Due to the high international profile of most OUTCAN postings, I would like to think that the selection committee chose people for their competence first.


----------



## RubberTree (28 Sep 2014)

Hello all, 
The issue of outcan postings has come up recently and I'm trying to get some background knowledge on a specific question. If anyone has some insight or an actual regulation that I could read I would be most grateful...

If a member is posted on outcan and the member's spouse (who is also a member) goes on LWOP in order to accompany, are there any regulations regarding the spouse working, while on LWOP, while out of Canada (specifically in the US)? 
Thank you in advance for your help, I greatly appreciate it.
RT


----------



## DAA (28 Sep 2014)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> The issue of outcan postings has come up recently and I'm trying to get some background knowledge on a specific question. If anyone has some insight or an actual regulation that I could read I would be most grateful...
> 
> If a member is posted on outcan and the member's spouse (who is also a member) goes on LWOP in order to accompany, are there any regulations regarding the spouse working, while on LWOP, while out of Canada (specifically in the US)?
> ...



Not that I am aware of.  As a spouse on LWOP (Spousal Accompaniement), you should be posted to the NDHQ Holding List (9000 Series UIC) for the duration but this never seems to happen these days.  PM me with your details and I can probably put you in touch with some people working in the admin world down their right now.


----------



## RubberTree (28 Sep 2014)

Thank you DAA.


----------



## dapaterson (28 Sep 2014)

There may be restrictions on working depending on the terms of the visa the spouse is on.  It's not merely a question for the CAF; it's also a question for the laws, regulations and policies in the country where you're posted.

There may also be professional issues, if for example your spouse holds qualifications that are not recognized abroad.


----------



## RubberTree (28 Sep 2014)

Thanks for the reply dapaterson. Yes she will have to apply for both a visa and license to work in the states. That is step two. Step one is confirming that she is in fact allowed to work as far as the CF is concerned.


----------



## Zoomie (29 Sep 2014)

She'll go down to the U.S. under a N2 VISA.  She will be able to get a Social Security Card and work where-ever she likes.  We have plenty of CF LWOP spouses doing exactly that.


----------



## RubberTree (29 Sep 2014)

Everything just seems to be coming up Rubbertree! 
Thanks


----------



## Old Sweat (29 Sep 2014)

My wife was not a member of the CF, but she was granted authority to work in the US. As a consequence, years after the event we are both drawing Social Security based on the three years she contributed to the trust fund.


----------



## vonGarvin (8 Jun 2015)

NECROTHREAD ALERT:



			
				AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> If you get offered an Outcan posting in Europe take it.  It is a great experience.  You will have the opportunity to travel tons as a family and the work is interesting.  That being said I have encountered people who were completely miserable over there.  They stayed in their house, went back to Canada or the States with their
> travel allowance.  We did France (*north and south*)...



Was that in the 1940s before the Germans occupied Vichy France?  

Anyway, I'm posted to the DC area, pending a successful screening.  Not looking for info on the process, but for anyone who's been posted there, is there anything I ought to know about the greater DC area?  (Other than to not go over Congress in a hot air balloon: I may never come down!)


----------



## PuckChaser (8 Jun 2015)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> (Other than to not go over Congress in a hot air balloon: I may never come down!)  [emoji14]



Oh you'll come down, just not in the controlled decent you envisioned. 'Merica.


----------



## dimsum (14 Jun 2015)

Question for anyone recently posted back to Canada:  

I'm getting conflicting info about the Canada customs Personal Effects Accounting Document that you're supposed to have with your inventory.  How many copies of that form (and the inventory) are we supposed to fill out, and who do we give it to?  The moving company overseas told me they only deal with it up to the first port (Vancouver) but I'll be going to Comox, so who takes over from there?

So far, the process for moving back has been fairly straightforward except for this part.

Thanks!


----------



## George Wallace (14 Jun 2015)

On return from Europe, many moons ago, we had to have at least 3 itemized copies of what was in each numbered box/container.  One copy was to be packed in the box/container.  One would be for your copy for administration, insurance and claim.  I believe the third copies would be for Customs.  It was a long time ago, so there may have been many changes.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (14 Jun 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Question for anyone recently posted back to Canada:
> 
> I'm getting conflicting info about the Canada customs Personal Effects Accounting Document that you're supposed to have with your inventory.  How many copies of that form (and the inventory) are we supposed to fill out, and who do we give it to?  The moving company overseas told me they only deal with it up to the first port (Vancouver) but I'll be going to Comox, so who takes over from there?
> 
> ...



You may well need one at your personal point of entry, and one again when your stuff clears bond - it has however been almost 5 years since I did an OUTCAN to INCAN posting.  I would recommend at least three copies, as well as book that has masters of everything in it that never leaves your sight!


----------



## Scoobs (15 Jun 2015)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> NECROTHREAD ALERT:
> 
> Was that in the 1940s before the Germans occupied Vichy France?
> 
> Anyway, I'm posted to the DC area, pending a successful screening.  Not looking for info on the process, but for anyone who's been posted there, is there anything I ought to know about the greater DC area?  (Other than to not go over Congress in a hot air balloon: I may never come down!)



I'm currently posted OUTCAN to an area near the NYC area, but all of us down here use Canadian Defence Liaison Staff Washginton, CDLS(W), as our OR.  If you already have a point of contact at the Embassy in Washington (which is where CDLS(W) is), ask them as they have lots of info for you.  What I have heard is that most pers live outside of the city itself and in the surrounding areas.  If living outside of the city, I've heard that you should expect anywhere from a 30 to 45 min commute, but the staff at CDLS(W) will be able to tell you.  

My wife and I were just in the DC area approx 3 wks ago and it is very beautiful, plus lots of things to see.  The unique thing about the greater DC area is that a bunch of States converge there.  You should enjoy your posting.  I generally find that the further south you go away from NYC, the more friendly the people are, so hopefully that is the case for you and your family (if this applies).  Besides that, I can't really tell you much about the DC area.


----------



## garb811 (15 Jun 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Question for anyone recently posted back to Canada:
> 
> I'm getting conflicting info about the Canada customs Personal Effects Accounting Document that you're supposed to have with your inventory.  How many copies of that form (and the inventory) are we supposed to fill out, and who do we give it to?  The moving company overseas told me they only deal with it up to the first port (Vancouver) but I'll be going to Comox, so who takes over from there?
> 
> ...


I had to give one copy of my inventory to the movers for each shipment (Air and Sea) so it could clear the host country customs.  When I landed in Canada, I had to have 1 copy of both shipments at my first point of entry.  I then had to have a copy for each shipment when it was clearing customs on its arrival to Canada.

You're lucky Comox has an Inland Office.  When I got back, my posting location didn't and I had to travel back and forth three times to get everything cleared as my car arrived seperate from my sea shipment even though it left at the same time as my sea shipment with the same moving company.   :dunno:

In addition to your master binder, I would suggest posting a copy of your inventory to Google Drive or something, just as a just in case just in case...


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## RubberTree (19 Jun 2015)

To any of those posted OUTCAN to the US (Scoobs, I'm looking at you here...) what did you do with your vehicle? Apparently, because I don't have an integrated tire pressure monitoring system on my car I don't "conform" to US standards and can't import the car. However, the CBP website does say "Those belonging to members of foreign armed forces, foreign diplomatic personnel, or other individuals who come within the class of persons for whom free entry has been authorized by the Department of State in accordance with international law." are exempt from safety and emissions standards. 
Has anybody used this? Or, how have you gotten around it?
Thanks!
RT


----------



## little jim (19 Jun 2015)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> To any of those posted OUTCAN to the US (Scoobs, I'm looking at you here...) what did you do with your vehicle? Apparently, because I don't have an integrated tire pressure monitoring system on my car I don't "conform" to US standards and can't import the car. However, the CBP website does say "Those belonging to members of foreign armed forces, foreign diplomatic personnel, or other individuals who come within the class of persons for whom free entry has been authorized by the Department of State in accordance with international law." are exempt from safety and emissions standards.
> Has anybody used this? Or, how have you gotten around it?
> Thanks!
> RT



I had no issues importing my truck, but it was greater than 25 years old....

The 2007 Volvo we drove down was another issue.  Bringing it into the USA was relatively easy with the boarder guys happy with form HS-7 box 12 which is the 'I am a member of a foreign military posted to the USA and will be bringing the car back with me out of the country when I leave.'  Also on the EPA form 3520-1 I think it was Box N for foreign military/diplomat.

Once in state I operated my vehicle under the state's "Out of State Military" rules - as long as I had valid insurance and registration I didnt need to get a state driver's licence so I had my Canadian one throughout with Canadian plates. 

My wife was forced to go through and get a local drivers licence as she wasn’t military.

Bottom line is you have to check what state you are posted to; you might be able to use the out of state military clause and keep your Canadian plates and insurance.

Note that you need to get your home province and insurance company have to agree to this and I recommend get it in writing; I had to prove a likelihood of returning to that province which also had a second order effect of allowing me to claim the maintenance of social ties to that province when it came time for my income tax return.  The insurance company I had at the time likened my problem to the snow birds who spend most of their time in Florida or Arizona; but it took some time and considerable email traffic to get me there.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (23 Jun 2015)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> To any of those posted OUTCAN to the US (Scoobs, I'm looking at you here...) what did you do with your vehicle? Apparently, because I don't have an integrated tire pressure monitoring system on my car I don't "conform" to US standards and can't import the car. However, the CBP website does say "Those belonging to members of foreign armed forces, foreign diplomatic personnel, or other individuals who come within the class of persons for whom free entry has been authorized by the Department of State in accordance with international law." are exempt from safety and emissions standards.
> Has anybody used this? Or, how have you gotten around it?
> Thanks!
> RT



That clause is for State accredited personnel - so basically Embassy staff.  As always, us non-Embassy pers have to look after ourselves.  I kept my AB plates (even renewed them by having a 12 month mail forwarding in place) with insurance here in the States.  My licence expires in August, and so I will have to fly to AB to get it renewed.


----------



## Dirt Digger (23 Jun 2015)

I'm in the process of returning to Canada after four years OUTCAN.  The vehicle issue has been a huge hassle, and is actually getting worse.

First, to import a Cdn vehicle into the US you'll need a compliance letter, which you can get from your vehicle manufacturer.  You can do a temporary import - just fill out the paperwork - but different states have different rules regarding plating your vehicle or drivers licenses.  I'm in Maryland, so we had to get Maryland title on the car, along with the plates and Maryland ID.  Also, check with your manufacturer regarding warranty coverage.

One really stupid piece of advice:  When you cross the border, have the US customs people stamp every page of your car's import documents.  They'll look at you funny.  Stamp every page - even if there isn't a place to stamp.  We had the documents "properly" stamped on the last page and had to drive to the "nearest" customs branch at the Baltimore airport to get it "fixed."  The Maryland DMV claimed that we could have written anything we wanted to on the unstamped pages.

Returning to Canada has seen a huge change.  Pretty much all vehicles have to be exported through US customs.  You used to be able to do all of the paperwork by hand, but now the the US requires you to enter the export info on a database called "AESDirect."  Of course, the only people allowed access to the system are American citizens, so to fill you'll need to go through a customs broken that charges for each vehicle.  

A US-purchased vehicle has to be exported from the US and imported into Canada - so two separate sets of paperwork.  A Cdn-purchased vehicle has to be exported and then you have to show Cdn proof of purchase to Canada customs.  Regardless, all the export paperwork has to be emailed to the US border crossing you're going to use 72-hours in advance and you have to cross on a week day during normal business hours.

Basically, going OUTCAN will turn you into an administrative God.  I've never done so much paperwork in my life, and a lot of it it is layered in that you can't start Step D until you've completed Steps A, & C and have a piece of paper that proves it.  Don't get me started on applying for US Visas...


----------



## MARS (23 Jun 2015)

Dirt Digger said:
			
		

> Don't get me started on applying for US Visas...



Actually, I would kind of like to get you started on that, since I am going to have to apply for one for my upcoming OUTCAN...PM me if you want, but I would like to hear about the hassles I need to prepare for.


----------



## vonGarvin (23 Jun 2015)

MARS said:
			
		

> Actually, I would kind of like to get you started on that, since I am going to have to apply for one for my upcoming OUTCAN...PM me if you want, but I would like to hear about the hassles I need to prepare for.


Ditto.


----------



## dimsum (23 Jun 2015)

Dirt Digger said:
			
		

> Basically, going OUTCAN will turn you into an administrative God.  I've never done so much paperwork in my life, and a lot of it it is layered in that you can't start Step D until you've completed Steps A, & C and have a piece of paper that proves it.



Yep.  I feel like I should get PLAR for RMS Clerk.


----------



## little jim (23 Jun 2015)

MARS said:
			
		

> Actually, I would kind of like to get you started on that, since I am going to have to apply for one for my upcoming OUTCAN...PM me if you want, but I would like to hear about the hassles I need to prepare for.



VISAS.  Funny it was easier for my wife to get work in the Southern USA than in Brandon.

Do your VISA paperwork early and make sure you make copies; it was all online and I ended up having to do the application personally.  For various reasons my move to the Southern USA involved driving from Manitoba through Canada to Ottawa to pick up our passports before crossing the boarder......


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## PPCLI Guy (23 Jun 2015)

The visa application almost undid me for both my US postings.  BLUF - do it as soon as you can, which is sadly not until you get a posting message, which doesn't happen until your screening is complete.....

Be prepared for some truly astounding questions, like "is the purpose of your stay to commit acts of sedition or sabotage", and "have you ever performed or assisting in genetic mutilation".


----------



## RubberTree (23 Jun 2015)

I enjoyed the question about selling organs for profit...
Thank you all for your responses. I never thought it would be such a big deal to bring a car into the US for 3 years....but here I am. What I am trying to do really is just keep it legal. God forbid I get into an accident in the US and my insurance company pulls the plug because I don't have the proper plates etc. 
I was told that I couldn't renew my Canadian plates without Canadian insurance and my insurance (TD Meloche Moniche) won't insure us once we are in the US. 
I did speak with Customs Border Patrol, Auto import division today and he was actually very helpful. He said that I can bring my car in under the foreign military exemption clause and even provided his number at the crossing to get in touch with him should I run into trouble. It sounds simple enough. The next hurdle will be plating the car in the US...but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

As for the US Visa...the application was involved but it is all online and once complete and photos submitted took me less than 4 days to get the visa attached to a (brand new) green passport. But as stated above...I recommend you start early as mileage may vary considerably.


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## vonGarvin (23 Jun 2015)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> The visa application almost undid me for both my US postings.  BLUF - do it as soon as you can, which is sadly not until you get a posting message, which doesn't happen until your screening is complete.....


Thank you for this.  I hope to be done my part of the screening on Thursday.  Then the waiting....


			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Be prepared for some truly astounding questions, like "is the purpose of your stay to commit acts of sedition or sabotage", and "*have you ever performed or assisting in genetic mutilation*".


If someone's a tranny, would that count?  Or if they performed at a briss?  Or if it was a self act?  What happened to DADT?


----------



## Scoobs (24 Jun 2015)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> To any of those posted OUTCAN to the US (Scoobs, I'm looking at you here...) what did you do with your vehicle? Apparently, because I don't have an integrated tire pressure monitoring system on my car I don't "conform" to US standards and can't import the car. However, the CBP website does say "Those belonging to members of foreign armed forces, foreign diplomatic personnel, or other individuals who come within the class of persons for whom free entry has been authorized by the Department of State in accordance with international law." are exempt from safety and emissions standards.
> Has anybody used this? Or, how have you gotten around it?
> Thanks!
> RT



I had absolutely no problems crossing the border with my F-150 truck and trailer.  In fact, the US border guys even let my mother-in-law stay in the truck while my wife and I went into the CBP building IOT get all the paperwork stamped (normally no one is allowed to stay in the vehicles; the border guys tend to give us a break as military pers).  I had my Kia Forte shipped here.  That was not fun as the Canadian shipper damaged the **** out of my car.  A strap on the car above mine came loose and pelted my car down the road.  Plus, somehow the bug deflector was 3/4 ripped off and the bottom front of the car was badly scraped.  The shipping company had to pay for the repairs and a car rental, but that was a serious pain in the *** dealing with them.

I'm not planning on using a car shipper upon my return APS 16.  I'm going to see if IRP will pay for a Uhaul car trailer rental as I plan on pulling the car back with my F-150.

I still have Cdn plates and registration.  My US insurance kicks in on 1 July.  I told them that I have Cdn plates and they didn't seem to care.  Insurance is more expensive down here, especially if you change your plates, registration, insurance, etc. over right away as you'll have zero American credit history.  After one year, the cost will go down significantly as you build up US credit history (I now constantly get mail offering me credit cards, insurance, etc).

For your vehicles, get letters of conformance from your manufacturers.  That will help when crossing the border.

I looked into changing registration to down here, but be prepared for BS.  Most States have the need for "titles", whereas we usually down have these for provinces.  I have loans for my two vehicles and thus "liens" on them.  The States throw in the added "fun" of titles and not all of them do this electronically (you'll be surprised how behind the US is for a lot of things that we take for granted in Canada, e.g. chip cards for debit/credit cards, privacy in banks, etc).  One of my finance companies (hint: it's a bank with the word "Scotia" in it, ) has outright refused to send a letter to the Department of Motor Vehicles as they won't "release their interest in the vehicle".  Ya, right, I've been paying it off for 4 years now and have one year left and they're being pricks to me.  Grrr...

On a different note, I highly recommend becoming a TD Canada Trust customer if you are not.  Also, get a credit line with them.  When coming down here, open an account with TD Bank (this is what they are called down here), but be warned that they are NOT the same company.  TD Canada Trust does own them though and this makes it really easy (and free) to transfer money from your Canadian bank accounts to your US bank account.  Open a US dollar account at TD Canada Trust as this is necessary to transfer US dollars from your Cdn bank account to your US bank account.  Plus, when applying for a US credit card, tell TD Bank to use your Cdn credit history.  If you go with another US bank, they will give you a silly credit card with something like a $500 credit limit, whereas with TD Bank I was able to get a very decent credit limit (>$15,000).  Of course, this will be dependent on your Cdn credit history.  I use this card to pay everything as I get pts (that I've used for airplane tickets), pay it off immediately, and have paid $0 in interest so far.  Google "TD Cross Border Banking" and read up.

Another thing, due to the lack of US credit history at the beginning of your posting, you may have problems getting a TV or cell phone provider.  DISH networks outright refused to give me equipment, so I went with Comcast Cable (who you go with will depend on the area you live in).  For the cell phone, I went with Verizon, but tell the people at the store to tell their call centre (trust me, this will happen) to use your Cdn credit history.  My wife and I had to go into the Verizon store three times prior to the Call Centre person finally saying that they could use our Cdn credit.  Literally three minutes later, we were signed up.  

The key is, "patience is a virtue".....

Hope this info helps...


----------



## Scoobs (24 Jun 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Yep.  I feel like I should get PLAR for RMS Clerk.



Agreed 200%.  I've never done so much paperwork in my life.  Invest in a good printer/scanner/copier.  Trust me, you'll need it.


----------



## Scoobs (24 Jun 2015)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> The visa application almost undid me for both my US postings.  BLUF - do it as soon as you can, which is sadly not until you get a posting message, which doesn't happen until your screening is complete.....
> 
> Be prepared for some truly astounding questions, like "is the purpose of your stay to commit acts of sedition or sabotage", and "have you ever performed or assisting in genetic mutilation".



Ya, I had some chuckles over the questions that are asked, but I found the Visa application process simple.  For your spouse to work, it is a pain.  Contact the Protocol pers at the Embassy in Washington as soon as you get in country and start the process for a work authorization.  After that, your spouse can get a Social Security Number and then work.  What fun, what fun.  Don't get me started on the tax BS, i.e. type of Cdn resident (deemed, factual, non-resident).  Grr....


----------



## Scoobs (24 Jun 2015)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Thank you for this.  I hope to be done my part of the screening on Thursday.  Then the waiting....If someone's a tranny, would that count?  Or if they performed at a briss?  Or if it was a self act?  What happened to DADT?



I know that you are joking, but I wouldn't joke about that stuff with the US border pers.  As examples, the US doesn't recognize same sex marriages or common law marriages.  Trust me, it's very different down here.


----------



## dimsum (24 Jun 2015)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> Agreed 200%.  I've never done so much paperwork in my life.  Invest in a good printer/scanner/copier.  Trust me, you'll need it.



I just downloaded a PDF app for my phone and emailed stuff to my civ or work email.  

Also, another option (probably not as needed for US but not a bad idea for places like Europe and Australia) if you have $ from selling your home is to get with HSBC Premier.  You need to sink $100k with them in investments or whatever, but Premier allows you to link your two HSBC accounts (Canada and wherever) for instant transfers.  That helped me quite a bit out in Australia.

I'm not sure what the grace period is once you get posted back to Canada and need to take that $ out for a home again, though.  I'd just transfer whatever is in the overseas account to HSBC Canada, cancel the overseas account and then cancel the Canadian one too.


----------



## Happy Guy (24 Jun 2015)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> I had absolutely no problems crossing the border with my F-150 truck and trailer.  In fact, the US border guys even let my mother-in-law stay in the truck while my wife and I went into the CBP building IOT get all the paperwork stamped (normally no one is allowed to stay in the vehicles; the border guys tend to give us a break as military pers).  I had my Kia Forte shipped here.  That was not fun as the Canadian shipper damaged the **** out of my car.  A strap on the car above mine came loose and pelted my car down the road.  Plus, somehow the bug deflector was 3/4 ripped off and the bottom front of the car was badly scraped.  The shipping company had to pay for the repairs and a car rental, but that was a serious pain in the *** dealing with them.
> 
> I'm not planning on using a car shipper upon my return APS 16.  I'm going to see if IRP will pay for a Uhaul car trailer rental as I plan on pulling the car back with my F-150.
> 
> ...


My family came back from the US in 2014.  Much like you said you require patience.
We never managed to get a US credit card because the major credit cards refused to look at our Cdn credit history.  It actually was not a hinderance because we used debit and for large purchases we telephoned ahead of time to the bank to tell them.
As for the car we changed to have US registration and inusrance.  Fortunately for us the local State licence bureau knew what they were doing and it wasn't that bad to get a "title".  However it was somewhat difficult to get the licence bureau to get them to accept that as an Exchange Officer with the US Armed Forces I was entitled to pay the special military rate.  I had to get the J1 office to write and sign a letter stating that under the SOFA agreement I was entitled to this rate.
As for the inventory you need to give a copy to the moving company who gives it to the customs broker.  When you finally clear your F&E you provide another copy to CBSA.  Make sure that they stamp your inventory as cleared through customs.


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## vonGarvin (24 Jun 2015)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> I know that you are joking, but I wouldn't joke about that stuff with the US border pers.  As examples, the US doesn't recognize same sex marriages or common law marriages.  Trust me, it's very different down here.


My plan?  Two hands on the wheel at ten and two.  Short, crisp answers.  No humor.  Also, no letter "u" when not required.


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## vonGarvin (24 Jun 2015)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> I had absolutely no problems crossing the border with my F-150 truck and trailer.  In fact, the US border guys even let my mother-in-law stay in the truck while my wife and I went into the CBP building IOT get all the paperwork stamped (normally no one is allowed to stay in the vehicles; the border guys tend to give us a break as military pers).  I had my Kia Forte shipped here.  That was not fun as the Canadian shipper damaged the **** out of my car.  A strap on the car above mine came loose and pelted my car down the road.  Plus, somehow the bug deflector was 3/4 ripped off and the bottom front of the car was badly scraped.  The shipping company had to pay for the repairs and a car rental, but that was a serious pain in the *** dealing with them.
> 
> I'm not planning on using a car shipper upon my return APS 16.  I'm going to see if IRP will pay for a Uhaul car trailer rental as I plan on pulling the car back with my F-150.
> 
> ...


Great post, with very good information.
Is a US credit card necessary for use down there? I of course have a card up here, but...

Also, is there a way to start US-based credit prior to moving down?

I head off this summer for a 3 year posting to Virginia.  I am thinking of transfering my vehicle, lien and all  I guess some arse-pain is to be expected...


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## Happy Guy (24 Jun 2015)

Is a US credit card necessary for use down there? I of course have a card up here, but...

Also, is there a way to start US-based credit prior to moving down?

I head off this summer for a 3 year posting to Virginia.  I am thinking of transfering my vehicle, lien and all  I guess some arse-pain is to be expected...
[/quote]
We didn't use our Cdn credit cards but our debit cards - it was too difficult.  We tried twice.  The CDLS(W) welcome package tells you this.  The welcome package is on the DWAN - VCDS / OUTCAN / CDLS(W).
Where you go on your HHT and open a bank account ask the bank if they can help you with getting a credit card.  Failing that try to obtain a major US department store card, get a credit rating and then try for a VISA / Mastercard credit card.
Good luck


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## vonGarvin (24 Jun 2015)

Happy Guy said:
			
		

> We didn't use our Cdn credit cards but our debit cards - it was too difficult.  We tried twice.  The CDLS(W) welcome package tells you this.  The welcome package is on the DWAN - VCDS / OUTCAN / CDLS(W).
> Where you go on your HHT and open a bank account ask the bank if they can help you with getting a credit card.  Failing that try to obtain a major US department store card, get a credit rating and then try for a VISA / Mastercard credit card.
> Good luck


I've just opened a US dollar account with TDCanadaTrust (my bank anyway).  I will open an account down there with TD Bank and get a credit card.  Hopefully it'll stick.

Thank you for the info!


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## little jim (24 Jun 2015)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Great post, with very good information.
> Is a US credit card necessary for use down there? I of course have a card up here, but...
> 
> Also, is there a way to start US-based credit prior to moving down?
> ...



Your post triggered something in my memory with respect to liens.

I was originally going to import my vehicle to the states but there was something about it being financed out of the country (Canada).  To be registered with a lien the lien had to be from a US Coy.  I don’t recall if that was a state or federal rule but something you might want to check out.

To open a bank account in the US I needed a SSN, which I did not get until after I arrived but CDLS(W) wanted me to open one during my HHT.  This is where the relationship between TD CanadaTrust and TD Bank helped.  Opened an account at TD Bank without an SSN based on it.  They also imported my credit rating.

I would strongly recommend getting a US Bank credit card.  Why?  They don’t have chips but every time you get gas you have to enter the billing address ZIP code as security.  There were literally only a couple of gas stations that didn’t require this.  Unless you wanted to walk up to the window every time and take a chance with giving them your card or just purchase what you think you need would strongly suggest this.  You need that ZIP code billing address; foreign cards would not work.  YMMV.

State Farm was really good to work with in terms of rental insurance and auto insurance for my wife’s US car.  Again they imported my Canadian credit rating as they are affiliated with the Canadian operations.

Wells Fargo had some good deals for mil accounts.  Got the premium account with no fees.  My wife, being non-Canadian, had to build her credit rating from scratch.  $500 deposit for a credit card with a $500 limit to start.  Warning is she missed a charge and when she went to spend the year I was deployed with her family outside of the USA Wells Fargo killed her credit rating for a $25 charge that she missed.  We are still trying to dig her out of that hole.

I was a bit taken aback by the number of meaningful discounts military get at various places (accounts, 10% at Lowe's, etc).  Its not lip service at all.


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## little jim (24 Jun 2015)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> I had absolutely no problems crossing the border with my F-150 truck and trailer.  In fact, the US border guys even let my mother-in-law stay in the truck while my wife and I went into the CBP building IOT get all the paperwork stamped (normally no one is allowed to stay in the vehicles; the border guys tend to give us a break as military pers).



Similar incident for me at the boarder.  They allowed us to leave our large dog (part rotti/part sheppard/part dane) in the car.  Said they would get one of their K-9 guys to search the vehicle.  When we came out the guy was playing with our dog on a grassy strip.  Having a great time.

Helps if you conform to the Canadian stereotype and be super polite; lots of 'Sir' and 'Sorry.'


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## PPCLI Guy (24 Jun 2015)

I have a US Dollar Visa from my Canadian TD Bank, and a US TD bank account here.  As to the border, no issues whatsoever.  I left the wife and the two German Shepherds in the car while I did the paperwork.  Shipping the bike had some ass pain involved due to a liens, but i powered through it....


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## Scoobs (25 Jun 2015)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Great post, with very good information.
> Is a US credit card necessary for use down there? I of course have a card up here, but...
> 
> Also, is there a way to start US-based credit prior to moving down?
> ...



Of course you could get by with a Cdn credit card, but some of the Cdn cards charge extra fees (international fees) for using them outside of Canada, whereas using a US based credit you will not incur these fees.  Other good reasons were given by the other posters.  

The only way that I see to begin building US credit prior to the actual posting is to open a US based account on your HHT and apply for a US based credit card.  I HIGHLY recommend using TD Bank down here (as per my other lengthy post).

Oh ya, expect a pain in the arse for vehicles.  I also forgot to mention how rude the staff were at the Department of Motor Vehicles.  Even the supervisor was rude.  I'm posted near NYC, so that unfortunately is the attitude of a lot of people around where I am posted.


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## Robert0288 (25 Jun 2015)

Just a heads up if your planning on buying a car in the US.  Prior to bringing the vehicle back north across the boarder, you do have to do all the export paperwork.  Normally, this process can take up to 72 hours.  While this is not a requirement to import the vehicle into Canada, you may run into issues if you ever drive it back down to the US, and by issues, I mean possibly arrested.

The Canadian paperwork is also fairly straight forward and you can do it yourself in less than 10min.  I'm not 100% sure on broker costs, but a broker can cost you a couple hundred.  Then again, brokerage fees may be covered under your move, which I have no idea about.

In addition, everything that is coming across the border must be owned, possessed and used for at least 6 months in order for you to import it into Canada Duty and Tax free.  Also you cannot sell or dispose of any of these goods within the next year without paying taxes.

Canadian Personal Goods Importation Document: http://www.cbsa.gc.ca/publications/forms-formulaires/b4-eng.pdf


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## vonGarvin (25 Jun 2015)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> I HIGHLY recommend using TD Bank down here (as per my other lengthy post).


Yesterday I opened a US Dollar Account at TD Canada Trust.  I fully intend on opening a TD Bank account once I get to Alexandria/Reston VA


			
				Scoobs said:
			
		

> Oh ya, expect a pain in the arse for vehicles.  I also forgot to mention how rude the staff were at the Department of Motor Vehicles.  Even the supervisor was rude.  I'm posted near NYC, so that unfortunately is the attitude of a lot of people around where I am posted.


I'm going to be in Virginia.  Here's hoping to be served by a southern gentleman


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## Dirt Digger (25 Jun 2015)

A couple random points from my time down in the US - and my situation was a little different from most because I'm a CAN/US dual citizen.

1.  The US Visa.  I only had to do this once for my wife, and it drove us nuts.  Save when you complete each page.  The online application system warns you that it times out after ten minutes if you don't finish the page you're working on - but it's really about three minutes.  So you go to the next page...and it asks you for your spouse's NOK!  Crap - what's the zip code?  So you scramble for the info...you enter it...and it's timed out.  Reload the saved version.  Do this for about 15 pages.  Sucks if you have a family of five.

2.  Banking.  The US is about ten years behind Canada.  Not only do people still use "checks," they're just starting to get chip cards.  Even online bill paying is slow, becuaseI bank with Royal, so I set up a US funds account with the Canadian branch and a US Visa  before I left Canada.  I also set up an account with Royal's US branch, which handles my direct deposit.  It's been very easy to move money between the Canadian and US institutions - just keep it under 10K.  My wife banks with Bank of America, which is OK.

3.  SSN & work permits.  If you don't have an SSN in the US, you're a dirty foreigner and you don't exist.  They make it very difficult to get bank accounts, phones, cable, etc. without one because you don't have a credit history - expect to make a large deposit to secure your utilities.  I already had an SSN, so this wasn't a problem.  However, it did screw up a few admin steps.  They basically gave my wife an SSN without any hassle because I'm a citizen and she started working within the first week because she did a CAN/US transfer with her company.  We accidentally bypassed the whole work permit thing, which is normally triggered during the SSN application.  A month later her boss came looking for the number, and we were all, "work perma-whatsa?".  Protocol sorted that out.

4.  I-94.  This is a document the US uses to track people coming in and out of the country. It's gone to a paperless system, which makes it difficult to track if it gets screwed up.  If you end up taking a cruise out of Port Canaveral, you're probably going to have a problem when you try and renew your driver's license if you don't leave the country again before the renewal date.  Because of the volume of travelers they deal with, they have a special exemption to not do an I-94 on your return.  (They expect foreigners to go back to the airport and fly home - not fly back to Maryland.)  So they checked my wife out of the county but didn't check her back in.  This raised a red flag, which had to be clear by Homeland Security before she could renew her license.  This process can take up to THREE MONTHS.  Of course, you only get your renewal notice a month prior.  Protocol was a huge help.

5.  "Thank you for your service."  I've had more people thank me for my service, try to buy my coffee, meals, etc. in the last four years than my twenty years prior back in Canada.  The US loves the military and are very vocal about it.  I usually answer with, "and thank you for your support."

6.  Security.  I had a few strange experiences, mostly due to bureaucracy.  The US requires all citizens to travel in and out of the country using their US passport - so I was actually in the US as a US citizen (no Visa).  So try showing up to a building wearing a Canadian uniform and holding a US passport - there is no box to check on their screen for that situation.  "Yes, I will wait while you talk to your supervisor."


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## dimsum (25 Jun 2015)

Dirt Digger said:
			
		

> 2.  Banking.  The US is about ten years behind Canada.  Not only do people still use "checks," they're just starting to get chip cards.



How prevalent is Canada in terms of online paying for bills, transfers, etc?  

In Australia, paper cheques are practically non-existent - only insurance companies and government agencies issue them (if you paid them via direct transfer).  People pay each other using direct transfer or BPay (kind of like the Interac transfer but free).  When I asked for a book of paper cheques, the teller at HSBC actually laughed at me.

Also, probably due to the different banking system, everyone tells each other their BSB (like a bank transit #) and bank account number - no security issues there.  Paywave (tapping your credit/debit card for purchases) and tapping your mobile phone for purchases is also now the preferred way to pay for smaller transactions.


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## dangerboy (25 Jun 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> How prevalent is Canada in terms of online paying for bills, transfers, etc?



I think online banking is fairly prevalent in Canada.  Most people I know pay all their bills online and majority do not even have cheques.


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## vonGarvin (25 Jun 2015)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> How prevalent is Canada in terms of online paying for bills, transfers, etc?
> 
> In Australia, paper cheques are practically non-existent - only insurance companies and government agencies issue them (if you paid them via direct transfer).  People pay each other using direct transfer or BPay (kind of like the Interac transfer but free).  When I asked for a book of paper cheques, the teller at HSBC actually laughed at me.
> 
> Also, probably due to the different banking system, everyone tells each other their BSB (like a bank transit #) and bank account number - no security issues there.  Paywave (tapping your credit/debit card for purchases) and tapping your mobile phone for purchases is also now the preferred way to pay for smaller transactions.



Very similar here.  For example, when I get a bill, I pull out my smart phone, log on, and then pay the bill so that it comes out of my account the day it's due.  By the time I'm upstairs, I've destroyed my bill and am tossing it out.
When my daughter (in Ontario) needs money, I send it by PayPal or by email transfer (depends on her mood.  LOL)  I also use my phone for some purchases by tapping, yet I get plenty of odd looks when I do it.
The government has made notice that it will soon no longer issue cheques.


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## little jim (25 Jun 2015)

Dirt Digger said:
			
		

> 2.  Banking.  The US is about ten years behind Canada.  Not only do people still use "checks," they're just starting to get chip cards.  Even online bill paying is slow,



I set up to pay my rent from my Wells Fargo account.  When you paid the bill online it gave you a date, usually five business days, that it would be paid. In talking with the land lord the bank was physically cutting and mailing a cheque to her.


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## Scoobs (26 Jun 2015)

Dirt Digger said:
			
		

> A couple random points from my time down in the US - and my situation was a little different from most because I'm a CAN/US dual citizen.
> 
> 1.  The US Visa.  I only had to do this once for my wife, and it drove us nuts.  Save when you complete each page.  The online application system warns you that it times out after ten minutes if you don't finish the page you're working on - but it's really about three minutes.  So you go to the next page...and it asks you for your spouse's NOK!  Crap - what's the zip code?  So you scramble for the info...you enter it...and it's timed out.  Reload the saved version.  Do this for about 15 pages.  Sucks if you have a family of five.
> 
> ...


----------



## kev994 (26 Jun 2015)

little jim said:
			
		

> I would strongly recommend getting a US Bank credit card.  Why?  They don’t have chips but every time you get gas you have to enter the billing address ZIP code as security.  There were literally only a couple of gas stations that didn’t require this.  Unless you wanted to walk up to the window every time and take a chance with giving them your card or just purchase what you think you need would strongly suggest this.  You need that ZIP code billing address; foreign cards would not work.  YMMV.



For you cc zip code use the numbers from your postal code plus any two random digits.


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## Rifleman62 (26 Jun 2015)

Using a Cdn credit card at US gas stations use Zip Code: 42100. I have been using this for approx ten years with no problem in at least ten different states.


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## newwifey (26 Jun 2015)

For the zipcode, we were told use the numbers in your postal code, in order and add 00 at the end.


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## Old Sweat (26 Jun 2015)

newwifey said:
			
		

> For the zipcode, we were told use the numbers in your postal code, in order and add 00 at the end.



As was I, and it works.


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## little jim (26 Jun 2015)

newwifey said:
			
		

> For the zipcode, we were told use the numbers in your postal code, in order and add 00 at the end.



An interesting note is that my wife's car needed repairs and had them done at the Volvo dealership.  I tried to pay with my Canadian Aeroplan VISA.  The guy swiped the card and the reader gave the message to "insert chip card."  Problem was that being in the Southern USA there was no chip reader on the machine and they couldnt find away around it.  Out came my US State Farm VISA.

Also liked not having to deal with exchange rates on a daily basis and service frees.  But YMMV.


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## Rifleman62 (26 Jun 2015)

> For the zipcode, we were told use the numbers in your postal code, in order and add 00 at the end.



Note my postal code is V4T 2X1 thus 42100.

You may be interested in Amazon.ca Visa (or the Marriott)card.

https://www.chase.com/online/canada/canada-home-en.htm



> We will bill you in Canadian Currency if you use your account to make a transaction in foreign currency.  We will convert it into Canadian currency at the exchange rate set by Visa International in effect at the time we post the transaction to your account.  This exchange rate may be different from the rate in effect on the transaction date.
> 
> We will not charge you any additional foreign currency conversion charge


*
The lack of foreign exchange fees is like getting 2.5% cash back instantly, when compared to using most other credit cards. Plus cash back etc. 

You also save when using this card in a foreign country rather than converting Cdn funds at the bank to pay off e.g. a USD credit card. ** *

** Clarification.


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## newwifey (9 Jul 2015)

I'm not biased in this suggestion as I am an employee, but Bank of Montreal has quite a lot of cross-border functionality now.   A lot of the fees are already included with existing plans for banking and transfer of funds, there is also a US Mastercard.

If you are a customer now (or a customer in the future) ask for more information next time you are at your Branch.  

It's worth checking into if it will make things easier.


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## Pusser (10 Jul 2015)

I am currently posted in the UK, which has some challenges.  Despite the fact that Canada has never waged war against the UK, Canadians are not officially treated as well as European Union citizens (most of whose countries have at some point or another HAVE waged war against the UK or its constituent countries).  For the most part, this means that we have to stand in the slow-moving line at the airport.  Unofficially, they like us better than even the Americans.  Nevertheless, there are challenges to living in the UK:

1)  Banking rules have been tightened considerably in the last decade.  When I was posted over here 18 years ago, getting a bank account was easy with a letter of introduction from my unit and the bank manager was tripping over himself trying to give me money (e.g. credit card,  setting up an overdraft, etc).  I had all of these things before I left the branch that first day.  This time around, getting a bank account wasn't too difficult, but identification requirements were more stringent and I had to prove I had an address.  Luckily, CFSU(E) Det UK has fostered a relationship with a local bank, so that went reasonably smoothly.  However, by this point I no longer had a UK credit rating whatsoever ( I hadn't maintained my old account) and so getting a credit card or an overdraft was impossible in the beginning.  However, within a few months, the bank starts acting like a bank and tried to get more money out of me, so applications for credit cards start to arrive in the mail.  After about six months, I was able to get a credit card with a ridiculously low limit.  For the most part, I don't really need a credit card over here, but it's a good idea to have one for the same reasons it's a good idea to have one at home (hotels, rental cars, etc).  Having a local one saves on transaction fees and getting hammered on exchange rates.  After about a year, I was able to get an overdraft on my bank account.  We were also able to get an American Express card fairly quickly through Costco (at the time Costco and Amex had a relationship).  As an aside, if you're a Costco member, make sure your membership is up to date before you leave Canada and ideally have it set up so you can renew online.  Our Canadian Costco membership is good here, but it's considerably cheaper to pay for it in Canada.

2) You want to maintain Canadian credit cards and bank accounts.  For one thing, buying online from Canadian sources can often be cheaper (items sent to your Canadian address in Belleville so save on shipping costs).  Also, when I travel, Canada pays my TD costs, but Claims-X can only reimburse you through a Canadian bank account.  Therefore, I pay for hotels and get cash advances on my Canadian credit cards (transaction fees are claimable).  Once I'm reimbursed through my Canadian bank account, I can pay off the Canadian credit card.  Apparently, if you have accounts with HSBC, it's reasonably easy to open an HSBC account here and get a UK HSBC credit card.  I've been led to believe that HSBC is much more international than other banks they will take your Canadian holdings into account.

3)  Cell (mobile) phone rates in the UK are cheaper, but when I tried to get three mobile phones for my family, I was told I was only allowed to have two - period.  They don't really have family plans here.  Every phone is a separate contract - and one household can only have two.  Even buying a phone outright or paying a large deposit would get me nothing.  This was with several providers.  After about six months of paying for my two phones in full and on time everytime (kind of hard not to when they also required me to set up a direct debit), my provider granted me a special dispensation and allowed me a third phone (in the meantime, I was able to give my son a pay as you go phone).

4)  The default answer to everything in the UK is always negative.  If you are late on a payment, it is because you are an irresponsible deadbeat, not because your payment got lost in the mail.  Utilities are billed quarterly here, so the bills are quite high (my last gas/electric bill was £1300), yet they expect payment within two weeks of them sending the bill.  I was one day late with one payment and the gas/electric company sent me a nastygram threatening to either cut me off or install a pay-as-you-go meter (a box in your house that you literally have feed money in order to turn the lights on).  Amex UK lost a payment on me and instantly cut my overall credit and daily withdrawal, as well as levying an immediate £25 fine.  I then had to prove that I had in fact paid on time to get these things reversed.  In neither case was there a line in the letters thanking me in case the payment had already been made by the time I received the letter.

5)  Importing my Canadian vehicle wasn't too bad once things got sent to the correct desk.  There is one central vehicle registration agency for all of the UK and only one office (everything is done by mail - you don't actually have to go to the office to register).  Being a large bureacracy though, the left hand doesn't always know what the right hand is doing.  Despite my package being addressed to "Special Registrations," it ended up in the regular section and so my registration was rejected because I hadn't included the correct forms or payment (visiting forces are exempt from the form in question and registration is free for the first year).  Calling them did not initially help as the first person I talked to was absolutely positive that there were no special procedures for foreign military personnel.  Yes there are and when I finally managed to talk to someone who knew better, things got worked out.  Having said all of this, my experience was nothing as bad as some of the stories above about registering in the US.

6)  I don't require a National Insurance Number and this has not been an issue.  I believe it is treated similarly to a Canadian SIN and so legally cannot be used as an identifier except for tax/employment purposes.  In order for my wife to work on the economy, she requires one.  Registering for the National Health Service for me and my family (which we're all allowed to use) was simply a matter of filling out the appropriate forms (and proving your address).

7)  Military discounts are not as prevalent as in the US, but they do exist.  One of the best deals going is an HM Forces Rail Card, which provides significant discounts on all train travel in the UK (including London Underground and buses).  Some business offer discounts as well, but sometimes you have to be careful.  There was a recent incident where a soldier was harrassed at a chain restaurant.  The restaurant does in fact offer a military discount, but identifying himself as a soldier in that particular neighbourhood was not a good idea.  There are parts of London where being military is a bad idea.

8)  Revenue Canada has just clarified that spouses accompanying CAF members serving overseas are also "Deemed Residents" of Canada, regardless of whether they themselves still have ties to Canada.  In the past, the member was always a Deemed Resident, but the spouse generally had to maintain some connection (e.g. own property).  Being a Deemed Resident makes tax issues simpler (for the most part), but our case, my wife has to declare her UK income on her Canadian tax return.  All of the UK taxes she pays are treated as a tax credit so, she doesn't pay any taxes twice, but she still needs to report it.

9)  My most frustrating issues have been in dealing with CAF administration.  I decided not to sell my house in Canada because to do so would have meant a mortgage termination fee of around $30K, which was not reimbursible.  I gather that some banks are now willing to waive these fees for CAF members posted overseas, but that certainly was not the case when I left Canada.  I took the Real Estate Incentive (REI) instead and now regret it.  The Department has saved approximately $25K in real estate fees, but only gave me a fully taxable $12K in return.  Furthermore, DCBA considers "real estate fees, legal fees and other related disposal costs" to much more encompassing than I think is reasonable and in waiving those (which is part of receiving REI), I have been denied a host of other benfits.  Being an absentee landlord has also been a pain in the butt.

That's about all I can think of at the moment.


----------



## SupersonicMax (22 Jul 2015)

Necropost.  I am posted to the USA on the ATL in Dec 15.  I am facing the prospect of not being able to sell my house because of timing/market.  I know CFIRP covers 6 months from core and anything beyond that from the custom envelopes for TDRA and I know I can request a waiver for having to pay rent share for 9 months starting when I get my posting message.  Couple questions:

1- Can TDRA and waiver for rent share be concurrent?
2- What can I expect having to pay out of pocket for living in the States (including any allowances I may get, like FSP and any share I may have to pay out).

Family of 4, pay level 16, posted to NAS Patuxent River, MD.


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## PPCLI Guy (22 Jul 2015)

Is there no hope of renting out your house whilst in the US?  That is what I did the first time I was posted on ATL to Washington - I find myself here again after four years in Edmonton in a PMQ, and the house is in Ottawa is still rented out...


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## Scoobs (23 Jul 2015)

Pusser stated:

"8)  Revenue Canada has just clarified that spouses accompanying CAF members serving overseas are also "Deemed Residents" of Canada, regardless of whether they themselves still have ties to Canada.  In the past, the member was always a Deemed Resident, but the spouse generally had to maintain some connection (e.g. own property).  Being a Deemed Resident makes tax issues simpler (for the most part), but our case, my wife has to declare her UK income on her Canadian tax return.  All of the UK taxes she pays are treated as a tax credit so, she doesn't pay any taxes twice, but she still needs to report it."

CRA has in fact clarified that the spouses accompanying CAF members are "factual residents" and CAF mbrs are "deemed residents".  It seems silly that we would be two different classifications, but we are.  What it means is that the spouse pays Federal and Provincial taxes (from the last province that he/she lived in).  The CAF member, being "deemed", pays Federal tax and a federal surtax.  Deemed residents do not pay provincial taxes.  This is in the sheet that was provided by the MFRC in Rome, NY and I confirmed it when I phoned the CRA International Tax Office (there used to be a direct number to them, but not anymore.  You have to call the same line as everyone else and then ask to be transferred to the International Tax Office).


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## Scoobs (23 Jul 2015)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Necropost.  I am posted to the USA on the ATL in Dec 15.  I am facing the prospect of not being able to sell my house because of timing/market.  I know CFIRP covers 6 months from core and anything beyond that from the custom envelopes for TDRA and I know I can request a waiver for having to pay rent share for 9 months starting when I get my posting message.  Couple questions:
> 
> 1- Can TDRA and waiver for rent share be concurrent?
> 2- What can I expect having to pay out of pocket for living in the States (including any allowances I may get, like FSP and any share I may have to pay out).
> ...



1. I feel for you about the house.  I quite literally sold my house one week prior to the moving company coming and fortunately didn't have to use TDRA or rent waiver.  I was in the financial situation where I could still pay the last month of my mortgage and I had a neighbour keep an eye on the empty house until it changed hands.  You should have already paid for your first month's rent through money provided by CDLS(W) when you went on your HHT.  You don't have to pay this money back.

2.  I don't think that there are issues for getting TDRA and rent waiver at the same time, but I am not the authority on that.  I would verify with both Brookfield (as they do TDRA) and CDLS(Washington) as they do waiver for rent share.  Do you have a point of contact at CDLS(W)?  If not, PM me and I'll provide it to you.  The Sgt that takes care of rent issues is on leave this week though.  Trust me, CDLS(W) has heard about a lot of problems.  It is good that you're going to be in Maryland as sometimes I've had issues getting a hold of pers at CDLS(W).  You can just drive in and talk to them if they are non-responsive.  Plus, the embassy has a duty free store in the basement where you can get things like ketchup chips (they don't have them in the US) and Cdn beer that isn't sold down here (they do have some and it is cheaper here, but still brewed in Canada.  You figure that one out!).

3. You can expect to pay everything out of pocket, but you do receive the following:

a. rent money based on your approved lease (CDLS(W) is the approval authority; read the docs they send you)  What you get approved for depends on your rank and your family size.  Contact CDLS(W) for specifics.  This money gets deposited into your US bank account monthly by CDLS(W);
b. monthly utility amount based on your best forecast.  Trust me, this is hard to do at the beginning as the fees in the States are different than Canada.  Expect utilities to cost less.  Utilities include garbage (yes, garbage), electricity, gas, water, sewer, and others dependent on your personal situation (pest control, etc.).  At the end of each year you will do a utility reconciliation in order to see if you were underpaid or overpaid.  If in doubt, I recommend going slightly higher than what you think your costs will be, but be careful not to go too high as you may have to pay the money back.  I went a little too high and am most likely looking at needing to pay back approx $500 USD.  This money also gets deposited on a monthly basis into your US bank account by CDLS(W);
c. Post living allowance.  Gets put on your monthly pay;
d. Foreign service premium.  The thing that sucks about this is that any overseas' tours do NOT count towards increasing this type of FSP.  Gets put on your monthly pay;
e. Post specific allowance.  I believe that this one is dependent on where you live and not all mbrs get it.  I think that this is the one that we get to "try" to make up for the significant hit we are taking on the exchange rate.  Trust me, it's not enough, especially with the Cdn dollar free falling over the last week.  You'll start watching it more often now.  This gets put on your monthly pay.

I'm not sure if c to e are all rank dependent, but I believe that some are.

However, you will also be deducted the following each month off your pay:

a. utility share.  This is based on what you pay (rank dependent) for a PMQ in Ottawa (near the airport); and
b. rent share.  This is based on what you pay (rank dependent) for a PMQ in Ottawa (near the airport).

The net is a benefit financially for you when factoring in the benefits.  You pay your landlord directly and pay your bills directly as well.  That's why money is put into your account each month.  

Like I said, get ready for a shock with the exchange rate.  All financial gurus think that are dollar is still going to significantly drop.  However, the overall cost of living is cheaper down here (food, gas, etc).


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## Pusser (23 Jul 2015)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> Pusser stated:
> 
> "8)  Revenue Canada has just clarified that spouses accompanying CAF members serving overseas are also "Deemed Residents" of Canada, regardless of whether they themselves still have ties to Canada.  In the past, the member was always a Deemed Resident, but the spouse generally had to maintain some connection (e.g. own property).  Being a Deemed Resident makes tax issues simpler (for the most part), but our case, my wife has to declare her UK income on her Canadian tax return.  All of the UK taxes she pays are treated as a tax credit so, she doesn't pay any taxes twice, but she still needs to report it."
> 
> CRA has in fact clarified that the spouses accompanying CAF members are "factual residents" and CAF mbrs are "deemed residents".  It seems silly that we would be two different classifications, but we are.  What it means is that the spouse pays Federal and Provincial taxes (from the last province that he/she lived in).  The CAF member, being "deemed", pays Federal tax and a federal surtax.  Deemed residents do not pay provincial taxes.  This is in the sheet that was provided by the MFRC in Rome, NY and I confirmed it when I phoned the CRA International Tax Office (there used to be a direct number to them, but not anymore.  You have to call the same line as everyone else and then ask to be transferred to the International Tax Office).



To be honest, I didn't go into too much detail when reading the latest CRA bulletin that clarified this, so I don't know for sure.  Still, it seems odd too me that someone can be a factual resident if they are not living in Canada.  In our case it really makes no difference because my wife and I still have a primary residence in Canada (our house) and that is sufficient to keep her classified as a "deemed resident."  As for paying provincial taxes versus a federal surtax, the federal surtax in this case is an aggragate of all the provincial taxes so the difference isn't significant.

We do utilities differently in the UK.  Both Rent Share and Utility Share are deducted off my pay every month, but only my rent money is deposited to my bank account.  For utility bills, I submit claims for reimbursement as I receive them.  That way the reconciliation is immediate and I don't have to pay anything back at the end.  The downside is that UK utility bills can be horrendous.  My last electric/gas bill was around £1300!  They only bill you quarterly, but still!

In my case, we rented out our house in Canada and claimed REI.  According to DCBA, claiming REI immediately disqualifies entitlement to anything else associated with your house, despite the IRP Manual clearing stating that the only thing you waive is entitlement to real estate fees, legal fees and other related disposal costs.  As a result, I have been denied a Waiver of Rent Share (took a few months to rent out my house), but I'm still working on that one.  I'm not sure how TDRA works into this.

On the plus side, some banks seem to be now taking pity on CF members posted OUTCAN and are sometimes waiving mortgage discharge fees.  Make sure you ask!  The main reason I'm renting out my house in Canada now is because I was looking at about $25K in mortgage penalties, which are not reimbursable in any way by the CF.


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## SupersonicMax (23 Jul 2015)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Is there no hope of renting out your house whilst in the US?  That is what I did the first time I was posted on ATL to Washington - I find myself here again after four years in Edmonton in a PMQ, and the house is in Ottawa is still rented out...



I guess there is always hope (and I definitely keep this option open), but the house rental market in Bagotville is severely limited and often only for Foreign Exchange Officers.  

I guess my real concern is my ability to continue paying for a house in Canada and living in the USA once TDRA money dries up.


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## Scoobs (23 Jul 2015)

Pusser,

you are correct that each situation is different.  It is true that maintaining a primary residence does affect the tax status.  Mortgage discharge fees are dependent on the bank.  Some will charge you the higher amount, some the lesser amounts, and some none at all.  It tried to get my bank to waive the fees, but they refused to do so and I had to pay the lesser amount, approx $1500 Cdn, and it is true that IRP no longer pays this (they used to, but it was changed in 2013).  I firmly believe that PWGSC made this change arbitrarily without thinking of people like us, i.e. posted OUTCAN.  IRP will not pay the fees, etc. to buy a house in the States, so by default we MUST rent.  Thus, we cannot port a mortgage to the States (I have ALWAYS had a portable mortgage), but the idiots refuse to reimburse us.     The only good thing is that this can be claimed on taxes as a cost of moving.

SupersonicMax,

I don't believe that TDRA lasts the entire time you are posted OUTCAN.  Last time I checked it was only for 6 months.  If you can't sell, I really recommend renting.  Also, I had to sell my house below what I paid for, but as long as it is within a certain percentage, IRP reimburses you.  I was reimbursed approximately 6 to 8 thousand.  However, all the things that I did to the house didn't pay off, i.e. I didn't make any money on the deal.
Also, if you need it, you can get a really low interest loan from the military and it is processed via CDLS(W).  I don't know much more than that as I didn't need to take it.  Some people do as the initial costs in the States can be high if you don't have some money already in the bank and a higher credit limit US based credit card.


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## Pusser (24 Jul 2015)

As a general rule, I would say that becoming destitute on an OUTCAN posting should be a minimal concern.  The allowances and other benefits you draw are actually quite generous (in my opinion) and most are tax free.  Add to this that your dependants are normally permitted to work in the foreign country, there is potential to actually do quite well, especially if your spouse has a marketable skill* that is in demand.  There are also usually some local tax benefits that may be available (e.g. in the UK, we are refunded all the VAT and other taxes on durable goods and auto fuel).  Depending on where and how long your posting is, you may be entitled to Vacation Travel Allowance (VTA), which is a nice chunk of change.  A Posting Loan is the closest thing to free money you'll ever see.  Even if you don't think you'll need one, look into it.  Ideally, it will be paid off by the end of the posting and you may not even notice it.  If you want to buy a car** on OUTCAN, this is usually the best way to do it because securing a car loan in a foreign country is near impossible.

*If your spouse is in a field that requires certification (e.g. medical) then start researching the requirements NOW.  It took about six months for my wife to get licenced in the UK.  For the most part, it was simply a paper tiger, but there were still some hoops to jump through.  She also had to get a National Insurance Number.  Note also that all of this may have tax implications in both Canada and the other country - not necessarily bad, but you do need to be aware and follow the rules.

**Buying a car in a foreign country with the idea of bringing it back to Canada requires a LOT of careful administration.  DO YOUR RESEARCH!!!  As I understand it, the car would essentially have to be manufactured to Canadian standards, or be over a certain age.  Otherwise, you could end up with an expensive paperweight.  You apparently can't even modify it after you return home.  I found it easier to bring my Canadian car to the UK and I will take it home again when I leave (actually HM Customs insists on that part).


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## SupersonicMax (24 Jul 2015)

Thanks for the replies!  It puts my mind at ease.  My posting is not till December but I have to go down there early (4 Sep till End Nov) to do conversion training...  I am trying to get as much done as possible before I leave.


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## SupersonicMax (24 Sep 2015)

Thanks all for the advices.  It turns out it was moot as my house sold within 3 weeks.  

Just coming back from HHT:  It is incredible the amount of money they give you while OUTCAN... No kidding people don't want to come back.


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## dimsum (24 Sep 2015)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Thanks all for the advices.  It turns out it was moot as my house sold within 3 weeks.
> 
> Just coming back from HHT:  It is incredible the amount of money they give you while OUTCAN... No kidding people don't want to come back.



Yeah, it's a bit of a shock coming back to "normal" pay.  :-\  

I actually was happy to come back, and that was from a desirable OUTCAN.  If nothing else, the time there lets you realize the the CAF isn't alone in having lack of institutional common sense (amongst other things).  I loved my posting, but when it was time to go, they weren't dragging me away kicking and screaming.


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## Scoobs (25 Sep 2015)

Yes, being posted to the States results in increased allowances, but I would say that the brutal exchange rate right now is hurting me.  I'm losing 25 cents on the dollar and that is made up in part by the allowances.  

I am personally looking forward to going back to Canada next APS.  Canada may have its issues in terms of being overtaxed, but after living out of Canada and deploying to "sunny" locations, I must say that it makes me love Canada even more.


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## Pusser (25 Sep 2015)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> Yes, being posted to the States results in increased allowances, but I would say that the brutal exchange rate right now is hurting me.  *I'm losing 25 cents on the dollar and that is made up in part by the allowances*.
> 
> I am personally looking forward to going back to Canada next APS.  Canada may have its issues in terms of being overtaxed, but after living out of Canada and deploying to "sunny" locations, I must say that it makes me love Canada even more.



That's exactly what the Post Living Allowance is designed to do (among other things), so I would argue that our allowances do more than "partly" make up for the difference in exchange rates.  In theory at least, they should make up entirely for the difference in exchange rates.  Since the Canadian dollar has plummeted in comparison to sterling lately, I've certainly seen a difference in my PLA, but not much in my take home pay after it's been converted to pounds.  The fact that I am insulated from housing and utility costs is really nice as well.


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## FyroniK (30 Dec 2015)

So... I've been lurking around the forums trying to find info on this... no luck hopefully I didn't miss it somewhere...

I've never been on IR before, I'm in line for a OUTCAN posting later this year and my common-law won't be able to come as they are attending university with three years remaining...

So question, will I be entitled to IR Benefits? What are the benefits exactly? From what I've been able to find, on normal IR the only benefit remaining nowadays is that your rent will be covered where your posted, Would this even apply outcan?

Anyone with experience on this with any info they want to share would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks


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## Ostrozac (30 Dec 2015)

I don't have the reference handy, but in recent years there were major changes made to IR. A member used to be able to go OUTCAN on IR, but as I understand that is now forbidden. There may be exemptions for service couples, who are sometimes considered IR and sometimes not (I don't even pretend to understand the spiderweb of rules that govern service couples).

Can you share more information? Is your spouse a civilian or a service member on UTPNCM? Are you looking at a 12 month staff college or a 3 year tour?


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## mariomike (30 Dec 2015)

FyroniK said:
			
		

> Anyone with experience on this with any info they want to share would be greatly appreciated,



DAA would be a good person to ask. You can PM him if you prefer.


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## shogun506 (19 Jan 2016)

Does anyone have any info or know where I can find any info on OUTCAN postings for Chinook or Griffon pilots?


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## SupersonicMax (19 Jan 2016)

Talk to your CM...


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## shogun506 (19 Jan 2016)

Not interested in trying to one yet just curious as to where in the world people have gone lately. I've heard of Chinooks getting lots of exchanges but not so much on the Griffon side. I know a lot of Brits and Germans over here but not sure if we send anyone over there. Anyone have any insight?


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## Sf2 (19 Jan 2016)

Guys of my generation flew tours on Lynx and Puma.  Not sure if those slots still exist.

Nothing stopping a Griffon guy from doing a Brit Chinook tour - guy from my Griffon sqn is there now.


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## dimsum (19 Jan 2016)

There were 2 spots for Chinooks in Townsville, QLD working with the Australian Army.  Not sure if that is an ongoing one though.


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## Eye In The Sky (20 Jan 2016)

You might be able to find OUTCAN posting info on the My Career link in EMAA.  You can search by location, APS, and other filters.


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## kev994 (10 Feb 2016)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> I enjoyed the question about selling organs for profit...
> Thank you all for your responses. I never thought it would be such a big deal to bring a car into the US for 3 years....but here I am. What I am trying to do really is just keep it legal. God forbid I get into an accident in the US and my insurance company pulls the plug because I don't have the proper plates etc.
> I was told that I couldn't renew my Canadian plates without Canadian insurance and my insurance (TD Meloche Moniche) won't insure us once we are in the US.
> I did speak with Customs Border Patrol, Auto import division today and he was actually very helpful. He said that I can bring my car in under the foreign military exemption clause and even provided his number at the crossing to get in touch with him should I run into trouble. It sounds simple enough. The next hurdle will be plating the car in the US...but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
> ...


What did you put on your visa for "address while in the US"? The cdls(w) instructions indicate that you need to wait until after your hht, but I don't have that kind of time, my US unit wants me there in May. Thanks.


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## Pusser (11 Feb 2016)

I highly recommend AGAINST rushing your move.  OUTCAN moves are complicated and it pays to get it right.  Your US unit may just have to wait.  They actually have no real say in this.  Exchange postings are approved at a much higher level than a unit CO.

Having said this, your unit address should suffice as an address (I would think).


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## vonGarvin (11 Feb 2016)

kev994 said:
			
		

> What did you put on your visa for "address while in the US"? The cdls(w) instructions indicate that you need to wait until after your hht, but I don't have that kind of time, my US unit wants me there in May. Thanks.


Wait until your HHT.  The receiving unit will be superseded by the State Department.  You cannot move here (I'm here in the US OUTCAN) without it.  

And they (The US State Department) are highly efficient.  Once my daughter's green passport was finally processed, it (and my passport) were walked over to the US Embassy and I had my Visas on my passport and in my hand in about 3 days.  And I was in Gagetown at the time.


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## PPCLI Guy (11 Feb 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I highly recommend AGAINST rushing your move.  OUTCAN moves are complicated and it pays to get it right.



Greta advice.  I am just finishing my third OUTCAN, and the move process, both in and out, is quite complicated.


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## RubberTree (11 Feb 2016)

I filed for my US Visa less than a week AFTER returning from my HHT, so I had a residential address on the form. I submitted my green passport application before my visa application and when the passport was done it was passed to the visa people and then returned to me. It was very efficient and smooth.


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## RubberTree (11 Feb 2016)

On a separate note...as tax season is fast approaching...does anyone have experience with (Canadian) taxes for a spouse working in the US (specifically one on LWOP)? The main question is deemed resident or factual resident?


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## SupersonicMax (11 Feb 2016)

RubberTree,

CDLS(W) had a webinar this week about taxes and residential ties for spouses was one of the subjects.  I did not attend but it should be on CDLS's website next week.

Cheers,


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## RubberTree (12 Feb 2016)

Thanks, I was hoping to catch it but unfortunately was out of town. Hopefully it will be a functioning link on the CDLS page.


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## Pusser (12 Feb 2016)

My wife also worked on the economy during our OUTCAN posting (however, not in the US).  In our case, mostly because we maintained our house in Canada, she was considered a deemed resident of Canada.  I don't believe a deemed resident has to necessarily maintain a house in Canada, but he/she must maintain a link of some sort (i.e. show a residential tie).

The tax implications can be interesting.  In our case, my wife had to meet all the tax requirements in our country of residence (fill out the forms, pay taxes based on her salary, etc).  That was all pretty straight forward.  The foreign country's tax system is actually simpler than Canada's.  However, she also had to declare all of her foreign income (as well as her Canadian income - half the rent on our house) on her Canadian tax return.  However, all the foreign taxes she paid were then applied as a tax credit.  The big point here is that she didn't get taxed twice.  Although she had to declare her foreign income on her Canadian tax return, her foreign taxes were also deducted from it.  In our case, mostly because we have the rental income and expenses in Canada, we engaged an accountant to sort through all of this for us.  It just made life simpler and in my mind was well worth the cost (which is tax deductible by the way).

On a side note, if you keep your house in Canada and rent it out (i.e. use it as an income property), you should ensure that you declare it as your "principle residence" (involves a letter to CRA - my accountant took care of that).  You can maintain a house you're not living in as your principle residence for up to four years (even if it's rented out).  If you don't do this and you end up selling the house at a later date, you will have to pay taxes on any capital gain incurred while it was rented.  Something worth looking into.


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## kev994 (12 Feb 2016)

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ndvdls/gvt_mpl-eng.html
There is a link halfway down to a form that asks cra to determine your residency status.


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## dimsum (12 Feb 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I don't believe a deemed resident has to necessarily maintain a house in Canada, but he/she must maintain a link of some sort (i.e. show a residential tie).



CF members and their families are considered Deemed Residents when posted OUTCAN - the relevant link is the same as the one posted by kev994.  

Also, not sure if it'd apply anywa, but you can't file taxes electronically as a Deemed Resident.


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## Pusser (12 Feb 2016)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> CF members and their families are considered Deemed Residents when posted OUTCAN - the relevant link is the same as the one posted by kev994.
> 
> Also, not sure if it'd apply anywa, but you can't file taxes electronically as a Deemed Resident.



Not necessarily true.  The member most definitely is a deemed resident, but family members may not be.  That has to be determined.  For example, my wife was a deemed resident (she maintained a tie); whereas another Canadian wife here (she and her husband did not still own a house in Canada) was denied deemed residency by CRA.


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## RubberTree (12 Feb 2016)

Thank you all for the insight...
I just got off the phone with the CRA (who were remarkably nice, patient and helpful) and it breaks down like this...
Because my wife worked for the CAF in 2015 she is a deemed resident for this tax year.
For 2016, she will become a factual resident (We don't have a residence in Canada). 
Now to figure out taxes on the American side...


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## Cdnmoose (25 Feb 2016)

Good Day all, 

long time lurker, first time poster. This is for anyone that has been posted OUTCAN in the recent years.  I am just waiting on my Posting message to Germany.  We need a new veh and at thinking about buying one before we leave.  My question, do we have to do anything to our Veh before we get over there or once we get there to get it licenced in Germany?  ie change heads lights or anything.  If anyone knows and has references can you throw them at me.  Thanks in advance!!! 

Cheers


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## dimsum (26 Feb 2016)

Why don't you buy one in Germany?  You get 1/2 of your annual salary as a posting loan with great interest rate, so use that to buy your car if necessary.


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## Pusser (26 Feb 2016)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Why don't you buy one in Germany?  You get 1/2 of your annual salary as a posting loan with great interest rate, so use that to buy your car if necessary.


  

That has pros and cons.  If you want to bring it home with you at the end of your tour, you have to ensure that it has been manufactured to Canadian standards.  Note that is manufactured to Canadian standards, NOT modified to Canadian standards.  Otherwise, you could end up with an expensive lawn ornament.  You can also import to Canada a used vehicle of a certain age (12 years I believe), but you may run into insurance issues back home.  Another option is to buy a car in Germany and then sell it before you leave.  However, there are local tax issues to be considered.  As a visiting forces person (under NATO Status of Force Agreement - SOFA), you are likely entitled to buy a car tax free.  No big issue on purchase, but if you sell it when you leave, you either have to sell it to another entitled person or you will have to collect and remit the tax.  Your best source of information on all of this is the Movements Section at CFSU(E) Geilenkirchen.

In both of my postings to the UK, I took my Canadian cars with me (CF pays to ship it), simply because I found this the easiest way to do it.  I had to register the cars in the UK, but because I'm on a SOFA, it's a "specialist" registration, so it wasn't too complicated.  I had to have some alterations made to the cars in order to pass the MOT (safety inspection) required for the registration.  This consisted of mounting "side indicators" (turn signals on the side - useful for roundabouts), a fog light on the rear and the placement of stickers on the headlights to prevent dazzling oncoming drivers (since I would be driving on the left hand side of the road).  In taking a Canadian car to Germany, I would guess that you would have to get the side indicators and fog light, as they seem to be pretty standard across Europe.  You headlights should be fine.  It's also worth noting that at least in the UK, if the car is less than four years old, no alterations are required (not sure why as the age has nothing to do with side indicators, fog lights or headlights aimed the other way - Canadian cars still don't have these things)

You can use your posting loan to buy a car in Canada or in Europe (your choice) and the interest rate is better than what you can get anywhere.  The alterations, if required, are claimable on your move.


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## captloadie (26 Feb 2016)

When I was posted to the Netherlands in 2009, we shipped opne vehicle, a Hyundai Sante Fe. We didn't need to make any adjustments or modifications to the vehicle to register. We then bought a grand caravan from the American base in Schinnen. At the time, the doallar was still nearly at par, so we saved around 10K on the purchase. Because the van was actually made in Windsor, we didn't have any issues when we imported back into Canada. We did have to pay taxes on the van, but I think it worked out to less than $1000. And I did use the posting loan, so it was paid off through my pay in three years.


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## Cdnmoose (9 Mar 2016)

Thanks for the input, wife and I are still on the fence!!  May have a look at a US Spec veh at one of the bases in Germany when we are there on our HHT


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## kev994 (3 Apr 2016)

Has anyone taken a utility trailer with them to the USA? I've found all kinds of info on importing a vehicle, but nothin on trailers.


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## SupersonicMax (3 Apr 2016)

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/415/~/permanently-importing-a-trailer-into-the-u.s.

Make sure you import your vehicles as military personnel on orders.  You will save all customs duties and taxes (but you cannot sell your vehicles while in the USA).


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## Scoobs (3 Apr 2016)

I'm OUTCAN right now in the States.  Here's the deal with taxes:

1. If you are Deemed or Factual (see below for explanations), do *NOT* file electronically.  The tax returns for EVERYBODY (spouse and CF mbr, while OUTCAN) get MAILED to:

International and Ottawa Tax Services Office
Canada Revenue Agency
P.O. Box 9769
Station T
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
K1G 3Y4

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER (get the point?) mail the returns while OUTCAN to the general addresses.  If you do this, you will screw up your taxes.  NEVER do that!!!!!!

2. If you sold your home(s) in Canada, the CF member will be Deemed Resident.  The spouse (if not also a CF mbr) will be a "Factual Resident".  I've attached a document that is a CRA Information Sheet that explains all of this.  The important part for your spouse is the first box that has the title "Spouses that Intend to Return to Canada and expect to Maintain their Canadian Residency".  Read it.  Quote it in your cover letter (see para 4 below).  If you did not sell your house, then I *THINK* that both the spouse and CF mbr will file just as if they were still living in Canada in that particular province.  I highly recommend checking with the CRA International Tax Office on how to file if you kept your house(s) in Canada.

3. I literally just mailed my taxes in this past week.  I did my own taxes last year as well.  I used the electronic tax software, but make sure that you do the returns separately as the tax software gets all messed up if you put the CF mbr as a "Deemed Resident" and the spouse as a "Factual Resident".  Basically, it  won't work.

4. ALWAYS send the taxes back to the address above separately for each person filing.  ALWAYS include a cover letter explaining that you are a CF member and reference your spouses tax return.  For your spouses tax return, ALWAYS include a cover letter referencing the fact that they are a spouse of a CF member, etc.  I will uplink examples of my letters, names removed, for everyone's benefit.  FYI, when I did my taxes last year CRA assessed them exactly the way I did them, but I did do a lot of research.  As well for your spouse, include the CRA Information Sheet printed out, right after the cover letter.  You will be surprised that not all CRA International Tax Office employees are aware of the Info Sheet.  Put it this way, better safe than sorry.

5. If in doubt, give the International Tax Office a call.  They used to have their own direct line, but not anymore.  You must call the general info number and then immediately explain that you are a CF mbr posted outside of Canada and you wish to be transferred to the International Tax Office.  General info number is 1-800-959-8281.  To get an agent right away, press the "*" key after connecting.

6. The CF member, filing as a Deemed Resident, MUST use the correct tax package.  It is NOT the same as the one used for the spouse, which files as a Factual Resident.  The CF mbr, filing as a Deemed Resident, uses the "General Income Tax and Benefit Guide for Non-Residents and Deemed Residents of Canada".  The link on the CRA website is:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/formspubs/t1gnrl/nnrsdnts-eng.html

7. If the spouse is a Factual Resident, the spouse will use the tax package for Federal just like she/he was still living in Canada and will use Provincial for where they just moved from.  For example, if you got posted from somewhere in Ontario to the States, the spouse files as if she/he was still living in Ontario, whereas the CF member (as a Deemed Resident), uses the tax package in para 6 above.  ALL returns get mailed to the CRA International Tax Office above.


----------



## Scoobs (3 Apr 2016)

kev994 said:
			
		

> http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ndvdls/gvt_mpl-eng.html
> There is a link halfway down to a form that asks cra to determine your residency status.



I was explicitly told by the CRA International Tax Office NOT to complete one of these.  Check out my big post in this thread for Deemed, Factual, etc. residency.


----------



## Scoobs (3 Apr 2016)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> CF members and their families are considered Deemed Residents when posted OUTCAN - the relevant link is the same as the one posted by kev994.
> 
> Also, not sure if it'd apply anywa, but you can't file taxes electronically as a Deemed Resident.



That is not entirely true, the part about spouses being "Deemed Residents".  See my large post in this thread.


----------



## Scoobs (3 Apr 2016)

kev994 said:
			
		

> Has anyone taken a utility trailer with them to the USA? I've found all kinds of info on importing a vehicle, but nothin on trailers.



Yes, I did, but I did not change the plate.  Also, I did not change the plate on my truck and car since I phoned the State Motor Vehicle Commission (some states have "Department of Motor Vehicles" vice a "Motor Vehicle Commission") HQ where I spoke to a guy who also happens to be a National Guardsman.  He told me that since I was a "temporary resident" that I did not need to change my plates.  However, this was only applicable to New Jersey and I caution you that this could lead to insurance issues, plus issues with the Province that you just came from.  When you cross into the States, you MUST stop at the US CBP post to get your "I-94" put into your green passport.  The CBP guy will do this.  It will be put beside your NATO 2 VISA.  As well, follow the instructions you got from DND or CDLS(W) or the OR in Colorado Springs (this depends where you are posted) on how to import a vehicle into the States.  The CBP guy will stamp all your paperwork.

Be careful.  You do not pay anything to the States for any of this.  The first CBP guy I dealt with wanted to charge me money like a "regular person" coming into the States.  I told him that under the NATO treaty (that the States is part of), military members on a NATO 2 visa are exempt from these charges.  He went and checked, but came back and said "yup, you're right".

A word of caution here as well, if you change your plates here in the States, often you will run into issues with cars that are still financed in Canada.  Trust me, I did.  Scotiabank outright refused to allow me to plate it in the States, whereas Ford Credit Canada had no issues.  As well, for warranty work you may need to get the US dealer to phone the manufacturer's number in Canada to first get approval for the warranty work.  It all depends on the manufacturer.  This was the case for my Kia, but not for my Ford (Ford doesn't care if it is a US or Cdn dealer, they are awesome about that).  As well, when you go to plate your car(s), you will have to create something called a "title".  It is NOT the same as a "registration".  This is fun, NOT!!!  Basically, most States will not register your car(s) if they don't have a title.  The local DMV or MVC may (key word, may) be able to help with this.  I highly suggest reading up at the applicable State's MVC or DMV website on how to do this and give them a call.  Trust me, the local New Jersey MVC was f'ing useless when I checked into possibly changing my plates.

You may need to get a Social Security Number to get the car(s) plated in the applicable State and to get a driver's license in the States.  It's not that hard for the CF mbr, but is more complicated for the spouse.

As well, when bringing the vehicles back into Canada, if you have changed the plates, you will need to go through the US AES only for self-propelled vehicles, i.e. not trailers.  Currently, IRP does NOT fund this.  CDLS(W) will fund one outright without the need for approval.  Anything beyond that requires approval from CDLS(W).


----------



## Scoobs (3 Apr 2016)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> Thank you all for the insight...
> I just got off the phone with the CRA (who were remarkably nice, patient and helpful) and it breaks down like this...
> Because my wife worked for the CAF in 2015 she is a deemed resident for this tax year.
> For 2016, she will become a factual resident (We don't have a residence in Canada).
> Now to figure out taxes on the American side...



Unless your wife is working in the States (which I don't know how to do since mine did not work down here; I'm still here right now in the States), you do NOT file anything with the US taxman. Nothing.  Nada.


----------



## Scoobs (3 Apr 2016)

As per my post above, included in this post is a sample cover letter for the *CF member* to include with his/her tax return.  The one for the spouse will follow in a different post.

Replace all red font with your own font.  Remove the italics.

If you don't have a spouse, just remove any reference to a spouse.

Include a cover letter.  Just last week I was on the phone asking some questions to the CRA International Tax Office and the employee asked me if I was including a cover letter.  Therefore, they expect one.

For the "My Account" stuff, I highly recommend that you create one with CRA.  This will allow you to login online to check Notices of Assessment, if CRA received your tax return, etc.  Here's the link on getting an account:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/esrvc-srvce/tx/ndvdls/myccnt/menu-eng.html


----------



## Scoobs (3 Apr 2016)

As per my post above, here's a sample cover letter for your spouse should she/he be a "Factual Resident".  As per the CF member sample cover letter, remove all red font and italics and insert your spouse's info. 

Hope this helps.  If you need more info, PM me, but be aware that I don't login to Army.ca everyday.


----------



## Pusser (4 Apr 2016)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> If you did not sell your house, then I *THINK* that both the spouse and CF mbr will file just as if they were still living in Canada in that particular province.



I kept my house in Canada and according to my accountant (who is paid to sort this kind of stuff out), my wife and I are both deemed residents as a result.

My taxes are a little more complicated as a result of being posted OUTCAN for the following reasons:

1) my wife and I still own our house in Canada and have rented it out (thereby generating income for both me and my wife);

2)  my son is still in Canada going to university (tax issues with respect to his tuition and expenses); and

3)  my wife is employed overseas (generating "world income").

For these reasons, I have engaged an accountant back in Ottawa (where my house is).  They make sure that all the stuff that needs to be done gets done (including drafting the letter to CRA declaring my house in Ottawa as my "principal residence" - meaning I won't have to pay tax on the capital gain when I sell it, even though it has been an "income property" at some point).   My wife's foreign income and my son's education expenses just make it even more complex.  Furthermore, because it's a "business expense" (because of the house), the accountant's fees are tax deductible.

On a side note, my wife has to pay taxes in our OUTCAN country AND declare here entire overseas income on here Canadian tax return.  However, any taxes she pays overseas is applied as a tax credit on her Canadian return, meaning she is NOT taxed twice.


----------



## Scoobs (4 Apr 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I kept my house in Canada and according to my accountant (who is paid to sort this kind of stuff out), my wife and I are both deemed residents as a result.
> 
> My taxes are a little more complicated as a result of being posted OUTCAN for the following reasons:
> 
> ...




If you are going to quote me in order to nitpick, then I suggest you take the entire context:  

"If you did not sell your house, then I THINK that both the spouse and CF mbr will file just as if they were still living in Canada in that particular province.  I highly recommend checking with the CRA International Tax Office on how to file if you kept your house(s) in Canada."

Thus, the reason why I underlined and put "think" in capitals.  Thus, the reason why I suggested people to contact CRA themselves.  My posts are very clear that I am talking about the situation where a CF member no longer has a home in Canada and he has moved to the States with the wife not working.  Thus, in THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION, the CF mbr is "Deemed" and the spouse is "Factual".  Speaking with other members posted down here, that is the most common scenario.  Your scenario is obviously different and I'm glad that you sorted it out, but there is no need to nitpick with sarcasm, "who is paid to sort this kind of stuff out".


----------



## Pusser (4 Apr 2016)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> If you are going to quote me in order to nitpick, then I suggest you take the entire context:
> 
> "If you did not sell your house, then I THINK that both the spouse and CF mbr will file just as if they were still living in Canada in that particular province.  I highly recommend checking with the CRA International Tax Office on how to file if you kept your house(s) in Canada."
> 
> Thus, the reason why I underlined and put "think" in capitals.  Thus, the reason why I suggested people to contact CRA themselves.  My posts are very clear that I am talking about the situation where a CF member no longer has a home in Canada and he has moved to the States with the wife not working.  Thus, in THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION, the CF mbr is "Deemed" and the spouse is "Factual".  Speaking with other members posted down here, that is the most common scenario.  Your scenario is obviously different and I'm glad that you sorted it out, but there is no need to nitpick with sarcasm, "who is paid to sort this kind of stuff out".



Wow!  You read a whole lot more into my post than I wrote.  I was using my example (as you used yours) to show that your "thought" may not be correct (largely because my example is more relevant to the issue I was clarifying).  I'm glad you managed to sort your situation by contacting CRA directly.  I didn't have time for that (compounded by a five hour time difference), so I hired an accountant to do it for me.  Two approaches to solving the same problem.  Sorry if you think that was nitpicking.  It wasn't intended that way.


----------



## Zoomie (4 Apr 2016)

Sounds like a lot of work - I just filed both my wife and I as "deemed residents".  No cover letter, sent by mail together.  No issues at all from the International Tax bubbas in NS.  

It probably helped that my wife didn't work - so taxing $0.00 was a non-issue.  She still received CCTB and other child care benefits - which both Deemed and Factual residents get.

I found border crossing to the US to be a breeze, as was dealing with all forms of government.  Getting a title for each of my vehicles was a non-event, a lot easier than I could have imagined.  I could have sold them down there too - as the US import rules say "no" but individual state regulations trump Federal rules.


----------



## Scoobs (4 Apr 2016)

Ditch,

I'm curious, which State were you posted to?  I know that the rules and regs vary wildly with each state.  Speaking with my US neighbors, they tell me that the Motor Vehicle Commission of New Jersey is notoriously rude.  I haven't met one person down here that had anything nice to say about them.  I personally think the New York City attitude abounds around here since I'm literally a 45 minute drive into the "City" as it is called here.

As for the taxes, I'm only stating what I've been consistently told by the CRA International Tax Office.  File them separately (which sucks due to the postal charges) and as Deemed for me, plus Factual for my wife.  My wife made so little money this past tax year due to EI for about 4 months of the start of the 2015 tax year that basically any tax she paid on it came back to her as a refund, plus I received a nice spousal amount on my return.  The awesome thing about filing as Deemed is that I pay Federal tax, plus a Federal surtax vice paying Ontario taxes, which are higher (greedy Ont Government).

Crossing the border was fine, with the minor exception of the CBP agent asking me to initially pay.  My wife and I regularly go back into Canada and we usually have zero issues coming into the States.  It's more with the Canadian side when they ask me "how long I plan on staying in Canada for".  I've been asked that about 90% of the time.  It's annoying and I always answer honestly as I don't want to get pulled over (win the war, not every battle type of mentality), but sometimes I want to say "as long as I please".  Oh well, my posting down here is almost done.


----------



## RubberTree (4 Apr 2016)

Pusser said:
			
		

> On a side note, my wife has to pay taxes in our OUTCAN country AND declare here entire overseas income on here Canadian tax return.  However, any taxes she pays overseas is applied as a tax credit on her Canadian return, meaning she is NOT taxed twice.



My wife is also employed here in the US and so has had to file a US tax return and pay US taxes. The taxes paid are minimal however...much less than in Canada. The tax credit she has on her Canadian return will not cover what the gov't wants from her...so she will have to pay them as well. In theory she won't be paying more than she would if she were still in Canada however.


----------



## Zoomie (6 Apr 2016)

Scoobs said:
			
		

> I'm curious, which State were you posted to?


Oklahoma.  Basically the girl in the licensing office looked up a notice on Foreign Military licensing of vehicles - it said that a copy of my registration plus proof of residential status (Green passport with N2 VISA) = green title.


----------



## mrsspetz (25 Jan 2017)

G'DAY !  my husband and i have been told we are posted to colorado springs this APS.we have a few questions and hope some or more can be answered 

1. will i (spouse)  be able to work?
2. allowances ? amounts if available?
3. what is the difference in rent ceiling and rent share?
4. can we get a PMQ on base as a canadian?
5. are you allowed to leave canada with debt?
6. can we take 3 motor vehicles? 2car 1 motorcycle?
7. autism services?
8. tax prep?


any added info is sure welcomed as we are both super excited to go ! we arejust a little blind at the moment


----------



## kev994 (25 Jan 2017)

Congrats! There is a thread here, I think it's called "Outcan postings and everything that goes with it"
I found it very useful. The one I can answer is rent share is what you will pay, it comes off your pay and is based on your family size and what it would cost in Ottawa (I think based on a pmq). Rent ceiling is the max that your rental property can cost (or the max that the crown will pay). You will get a deposit around the 24th ish of each month for the cost of your rent (up to your rent ceiling), your share of that cost comes off your monthly pay.


----------



## dimsum (25 Jan 2017)

If you or your husband goes on the DWAN, look up Military Foreign Service Instructions (MFSI) - those should answer most of your Qs.  There should also be a link on the DWAN to the support unit for Colorado Springs which should have links for most of those questions.


----------



## SupersonicMax (25 Jan 2017)

CDLS(W) has a website you can use for reference.  If you need a generic username/password let me know.    They only gave me mine after I was posted.   The website has a lot of useful information but it is burried...
https://www.cdlsw-elfcw.forces.gc.ca/

All the benefits for foreign postings reside here: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-benefits/ch-10-foreign-service-instructions.page

If you need help, let me know.  I am on the tail end of a posting in the US..


----------



## Pusser (28 Jan 2017)

mrsspetz said:
			
		

> mrsspetz said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## kev994 (29 Jan 2017)

If you have a car loan you may have issues getting a title in the US. CDLSW will offer a substantial loan at very low interest when your posting message gets cut,  I would suggest paying off your car loan with it if you have one.


----------



## Pusser (29 Jan 2017)

kev994 said:
			
		

> If you have a car loan you may have issues getting a title in the US. CDLSW will offer a substantial loan at very low interest when your posting message gets cut,  I would suggest paying off your car loan with it if you have one.



Posting loans can be set up by your current Orderly Room before you leave Canada.


----------



## dimsum (30 Jan 2017)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Posting loans can be set up by your current Orderly Room before you leave Canada.



Did that change?  A few years ago, it was the gaining country's CDLS or CFSU (O) OUTCAN Cell that handled all admin - I barely had any dealings with my local admin unless it was for clearing out or Brookfield.


----------



## kev994 (30 Jan 2017)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Did that change?  A few years ago, it was the gaining country's CDLS or CFSU (O) OUTCAN Cell that handled all admin - I barely had any dealings with my local admin unless it was for clearing out or Brookfield.


I vaguely remember my WOR offering it when my message was cut. I can't remember if they were doing it themselves or through cdls.


----------



## Pusser (30 Jan 2017)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Did that change?  A few years ago, it was the gaining country's CDLS or CFSU (O) OUTCAN Cell that handled all admin - I barely had any dealings with my local admin unless it was for clearing out or Brookfield.



I did all the paperwork in my local OR and had the money in hand before I left Canada.  Spent most of it before leaving Canada, yet still paying it off on return...


----------



## kev994 (19 Feb 2017)

So it's tax season, and the deemed resident part is easy, there is an option for it in the tax software, but how did everyone do the 'factual resident' bit for their spouse? Put their address as their old address?


----------



## SupersonicMax (19 Feb 2017)

You put the province she is a factual resident instead.

Also, be careful.  If you haven't lived in the US for 6 months, some provinces deem you were a resident of the province for tax purposes if you lived in that province for more than 6 months before going OUTCAN, regardless of your status on 31 Dec.  I would check with them.


----------



## Myck (19 Mar 2017)

Hi,
I made some research on Google but didn't find the right answer to my question so excuse me if it was already asked.
I was wondering if being on a PCat prevent me to be posted OutCan ? 
Thanks !


----------



## Ostrozac (19 Mar 2017)

Myck said:
			
		

> I was wondering if being on a PCat prevent me to be posted OutCan ?
> Thanks !



If you're on a PCAT that violates your occupational standards but you've gone through the whole process (ie your AR/MEL is complete) and have been retained without restrictions in your MOSID, then you'd be eligible for OUTCAN posting on a case-by-case basis. I had a subordinate who had been retained without restrictions and he did a three year embassy tour.


----------



## Myck (19 Mar 2017)

Thank you for your answer. I'm a french speaker so if I understood correctly, as long as I can reach the MOSID standards, I have my chances ?

So for exemple, if I can't run but it's not on the MOSID standards for my trade, but I can do everything else, it's ok ?


----------



## Ostrozac (20 Mar 2017)

Myck said:
			
		

> Thank you for your answer. I'm a french speaker so if I understood correctly, as long as I can reach the MOSID standards, I have my chances ?
> 
> So for exemple, if I can't run but it's not on the MOSID standards for my trade, but I can do everything else, it's ok ?



Running is part of the FORCE test, so isn't a great example of this sort of thing -- as the FORCE test is also required for an OUTCAN posting, in addition to an up to date medical.

A better example would be a member (let's say an artillery officer) who loses some of their hearing in an IED attack -- member gets a PCAT change, no longer strictly meets their medical standards, but the Administrative Review decides to retain the member without restrictions -- and the member still goes to the field, still does FORCE tests. In this case that member could later serve in an OUTCAN posting, maybe a staff position in NATO.


----------



## Myck (20 Mar 2017)

I see, thanks for your kindness 😊


----------



## tinar (24 Apr 2017)

Hi,

My fiance recently got OUTCAN posting to Europe. We have a child together and we are planning to move there soon. Do we have to get married if I want to go with him?

Also, I would like to know about the language and culture. Hopefully, we will be moving to a country where they speak either English or French.

I didn’t get a chance to discuss with him about this yet, I have heard that the government will sponsor our moving charges. But can we contact moving companies that we like? I recently used the service of United Van Lines ( http://uvl.ca/Content/Moving+Services/Moving+Within+Canada ) when we moved to our new condo. They also provide long distance moving. Can I contact them or are there any other complications? Please help.


----------



## Ostrozac (24 Apr 2017)

tinar said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> My fiance recently got OUTCAN posting to Europe. We have a child together and we are planning to move there soon. Do we have to get married if I want to go with him?
> 
> ...



In general, you're going to have to be married to accompany a service member on an OUTCAN posting, otherwise you run into all kinds of residency, healthcare, visa issues, etc. Plus, part of the OUTCAN screening is an interview where they talk about family situation -- if his paperwork says he has a child but no spouse then the first question is "what is your child care plan when you're in Europe?"

Culture varies widely -- living in the UK is very different from living in Romania. There are many posting locations, all with their own differences.

The government of Canada has a moving contract -- they book your movers and pay for them, you don't choose the company.


----------



## mariomike (24 Apr 2017)

tinar said:
			
		

> Do we have to get married if I want to go with him?



Common Law Marriage in the Canadian Forces - Mega Thread  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/25612.275
16 pages.

See also,

OP: tinar 
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/125631/post-1485660.html#msg1485660


----------



## Pusser (24 Apr 2017)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> In general, you're going to have to be married to accompany a service member on an OUTCAN posting, otherwise you run into all kinds of residency, healthcare, visa issues, etc. Plus, part of the OUTCAN screening is an interview where they talk about family situation -- if his paperwork says he has a child but no spouse then the first question is "what is your child care plan when you're in Europe?"
> 
> Culture varies widely -- living in the UK is very different from living in Romania. There are many posting locations, all with their own differences.
> 
> The government of Canada has a moving contract -- they book your movers and pay for them, you don't choose the company.



You don't necessarily need to be married to accompany your common-law spouse on an OUTCAN posting.  The CAF doesn't really care.  HOWEVER, the host country might.  If they don't recognize common-law relationships, then you could be denied any spousal benefits offered to visiting forces, INCLUDING any required visas (which could effectively kill your chances of joining him overseas.  Rather than trying to fight this, it would be a lot simpler for all concerned if you simply got married before the COS date.


----------



## George Wallace (24 Apr 2017)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> In general, you're going to have to be married to accompany a service member on an OUTCAN posting, otherwise you run into all kinds of residency, healthcare, visa issues, etc. Plus, part of the OUTCAN screening is an interview where they talk about family situation -- if his paperwork says he has a child but no spouse then the first question is "what is your child care plan when you're in Europe?"
> 
> Culture varies widely -- living in the UK is very different from living in Romania. There are many posting locations, all with their own differences.
> 
> The government of Canada has a moving contract -- they book your movers and pay for them, you don't choose the company.





			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> You don't necessarily need to be married to accompany your common-law spouse on an OUTCAN posting.  The CAF doesn't really care.  HOWEVER, the host country might.  If they don't recognize common-law relationships, then you could be denied any spousal benefits offered to visiting forces, INCLUDING any required visas (which could effectively kill your chances of joining him overseas.  Rather than trying to fight this, it would be a lot simpler for all concerned if you simply got married before the COS date.



The same thing repeated, but worded differently.


----------



## PMedMoe (24 Apr 2017)

I'll offer something here, even though I'm 99.9% sure that tinar is just a spammer.  No, you cannot chose your moving company when the CF is footing the bill.


----------



## tinar (25 Apr 2017)

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> In general, you're going to have to be married to accompany a service member on an OUTCAN posting, otherwise you run into all kinds of residency, healthcare, visa issues, etc. Plus, part of the OUTCAN screening is an interview where they talk about family situation -- if his paperwork says he has a child but no spouse then the first question is "what is your child care plan when you're in Europe?"
> 
> Culture varies widely -- living in the UK is very different from living in Romania. There are many posting locations, all with their own differences.
> 
> The government of Canada has a moving contract -- they book your movers and pay for them, you don't choose the company.


Thank you for your reply.


----------



## Messerschmitt (24 Jun 2017)

What are the remaining countries where someone could still get outcan? US NORAD and Germany? Anything else out there?


----------



## dapaterson (24 Jun 2017)

There are attaché positions in a variety of nations; exchange positions with some foreign militaries; MPs and clerks in a number of embassies...


----------



## Messerschmitt (24 Jun 2017)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are attaché positions in a variety of nations; exchange positions with some foreign militaries; MPs and clerks in a number of embassies...



Any place to get a list?


----------



## mariomike (24 Jun 2017)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are attaché positions in a variety of nations; exchange positions with some foreign militaries; MPs and clerks in a number of embassies...



This may be of interest...

Forces.ca
Reserve Force Foreign Service Arrangements (RFFSA)
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-support-services-for-members-reservists/foreign-service-agreements.page

Milnet.ca
Reserve Forces Foreign Service Arrangements ( RFFSA )
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/58217.0.html
4 pages.

Foreign Exchange programs??  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/101486.25.html
2 pages.

Navy.ca
REGULUS program keeps sailors’ skills sharp
http://www.navy-marine.forces.gc.ca/en/news-operations/news-view.page?doc=regulus-program-keeps-sailors-skills-sharp/i3yaqqud

Embassy Question  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/57947.0

OJT at an embassy? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/79325.0

Working In an Embassey, and everything else! 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/33093.0

Military Attaches  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/28202.0/nowap.html

Air Force Pilot Exchange  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/52181.0/nowap.html

Foreign Postings  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/71069.0

Officer exchange
http://army.ca/forums/threads/20557.0

Canadian / Australian Personnel Exchange Program??  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/28930.0

Deploying with other countries? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/23262.0

Canadian Exchange Officers Question  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/96122.0

China Exchange? 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/17407.0

Naval Exchanges? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/122454.0/nowap.html

etc...


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## dimsum (24 Jun 2017)

Messerschmitt said:
			
		

> Any place to get a list?



Next time you're on EMAA, you can look up postings and see what's specific to your trade.


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## Pusser (27 Jun 2017)

Messerschmitt said:
			
		

> Any place to get a list?



Your career manager will have the most up to date list as well as a forecast on when each position is expected to become available.  In the Log Branch, they send out a list to everyone every autumn for positions opening in the upcoming APS.


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## CountDC (27 Jun 2017)

Really? Never saw that list....probably because the Log Branch forgets that clerks are part of the branch until they want something from us.

Although it is technically true that you don't get to select your movers if you are nice to the staff in the move section and indicate a preference for company we have contracted they may be able to influence it some. Nothing major, just a matter of knowing when that company is due to come up in the selection and entering your move at the right time. Of course if no one else is moving at your location then you spin the wheel and hope for the best.


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## AKa (28 Jun 2017)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Really? Never saw that list....probably because the Log Branch forgets that clerks are part of the branch until they want something from us.



Advise the Logistics Branch Secretariat that you're not getting the emails.  The officer one came out last August so I would expect yours would be in approximately the same timeline.  I'm pretty sure there's a fair number of clerk positions internationally. There's a bunch in Washington alone. 

Cheers,

AK


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## high_octane (4 Dec 2017)

Bump for the new screening season!

I've been OUTCAN before but every situation seems different and I learned a lot in this thread so I'll drop some hints below

Mortgage: contact your lender ASAP to find out your terms for pre-payment

Last time I had a military clause in my terms with MCAP that stated if I was posted OUTCAN I would only be charged max 3 months IRD, which used to be reimbursed by core (apparently that benefit is gone?)

Ideally you want one of the few lenders who have a full military clause to waive these pre-payment penalties when a military member is posted OUTCAN (currently TD and Scotia have the best terms as of 2017 according to my broker, seems to change every year and funny the "official bank of the Canadian Defence Community (CDC) BMO" is not one of them but they do have those nice glossy brochures with Canadian soldiers on the front..)

My term ends next summer but if I want to sell the house sooner I'd be hit with 3 months IRD penalty, so I'm accelerating mortgage payments now to reduce that potential fee. According to my broker they are one of the better lenders for porting within Canada because of how they blend rates and still allow the mortgage interest buydown, but I plan to warn them I won't be coming back or recommending them if they penalize OUTCAN postings..

Banking: Consider using online banks such as Tangerine, as they can do everything remotely rather than in a branch (and they're free..)

Last time I had both TD Select Service and Tangerine, and in my experience TD would often say "ok just come visit the branch" and constantly freeze my accounts because I was OUTCAN, whereas Tangerine was easier to deal with remotely. I read above that TD is great in the US as they can use your credit history from TD Canada, so I'm glad I kept an account open with them.

Last time I was able to transfer CAD from my Canadian banks to EUR in my Euro banks via both XE.com and Interactive Brokers FOREX sites. XE is very straightforward to use and has decent exchange rates depending on volume. Interactive Brokers was complicated to use and costs $10/month USD minimum but had rock bottom exchange rates.

This time I will try opening a US TD bank account and transfer between TD Canada and TD US and/or maybe open a US Paypal account

Credit Cards: Check your terms for foreign exchange fees and warranty benefits. Carry multiple cards as they will get locked randomly and some cards just won't work at random places

I often use both the Chase amazon and Marriott cards for buying things I would never need extended warranty or rental insurance for (think food/gas etc) This saves the 2.5% in exchange fees, as confirmed by the clerks who recently calculated this for my various USD claim expenses

I use my premium cards for major purchases as they have extended warranty benefits and the rewards/benefits can in theory negate the 2.5% fees (in reality the Chase cards are probably better other than the extended warranty I've never used) If anything it's good to have backup options.

Driver's Licence: Consider renewing for as long as possible before going to Europe

Last time I switched from Quebec to Ontario before leaving as this renews it and the Ontario licence was good for 4 years compared to Quebec which expires annually (and has an annual fee for insurance you won't need, charges extra for motorbike licence etc) If I remember correctly the Ontario one was cheaper for 4 years than Quebec was per year.

Not sure if this is worthwhile for the States or we have to get a State driver's licence anyways?

Vehicles: Consider selling instead of shipping overseas. If bringing a vehicle back, read all the policies and prepare to pay

Last time I sold my vehicles before leaving and received a taxed benefit for not shipping a vehicle.

In Europe licensing and plates was fairly easy as it was handled by CFSU(E). Coming back to Quebec was the hard part as it required a RIV inspection, a Quebec inspection and a dealer inspection (dealer was 250kms away and charged $500 for a quick look) There is no reimbursement to transport your vehicles to all these inspections, but you aren't allowed to drive them until the inspections are complete either. If the mover destroys your vehicle and you have to rent one because of that, you forfeit reimbursement of all said vehicle expenses. Joys

This time I might have issues with smog inspections in the States as my car is modified? Hopefully I can use Ontario plates and State insurance? I'd just sell it but it the resale is poor with $15k hail damage on the carfax

Income Taxes: Inform yourself of the various unique considerations for different provinces and situations

Last time I made sure to cut all financial ties from Quebec so I could file as a deemed resident. I sold my house and I did not use Long Term Storage. My Canadian branches were all based in Ontario and I even moved my driver's licence to Ontario. I called Revenue Quebec and informed them I had moved all said ties to Ontario.

Upon return to Quebec they threatened $100s/day penalties and garnished years worth of provincial income taxes, including tax on that severance payout and tax on operational deployment benefits. I have since got this all back but I do not wish this tax mess upon anybody. Something as simple as using LTS could cost you $$$ depending on your situation

CRA initially sent me a letter that I was now a non-resident. Both RQ and CRA told me many things that simply weren't true. Bottom line you basically have to read the policies yourself..


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## Lumber (4 Dec 2017)

My biggest take away from all this is:

1. OUTCAN postings are complicated. Read up; and
2. Living in Quebec means attaching a vice to your nuts.


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## dimsum (4 Dec 2017)

Lumber said:
			
		

> My biggest take away from all this is:
> 
> 1. OUTCAN postings are complicated. Read up; and
> 2. Living in Quebec means attaching a vice to your nuts.



1 for sure.  My screening for OUTCAN was tougher than any of my deployment ones, and more so for families.  That being said, and maybe it was just the Brookfield rep I had, I had amazing support from Brookfield on my move there and back.


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## Lkjhgfdsa (6 Dec 2017)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I did all the paperwork in my local OR and had the money in hand before I left Canada.  Spent most of it before leaving Canada, yet still paying it off on return...



Interest free ? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pusser (7 Dec 2017)

Lkjhgfdsa said:
			
		

> Interest free ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



No, not interest free, but ridiculously low - well below what you would get at a bank.


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## Lkjhgfdsa (7 Dec 2017)

Pusser said:
			
		

> No, not interest free, but ridiculously low - well below what you would get at a bank.


I heard there is no timeline to pay it back as long as your enrolled!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## garb811 (7 Dec 2017)

No, there is a timeline...max is 48 months but you can opt for a shorter period.


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## TQMS (4 Jan 2018)

Messerschmitt said:
			
		

> What are the remaining countries where someone could still get outcan? US NORAD and Germany? Anything else out there?



Almost anywhere with a NATO facility. 
There are 5 pers in Stavanger, Norway at the JWC for example.
Positions in Romania, Italy, UK, Poland, Turkey, ect ect.

As well as other places like Australia.

Some positions are trade specific and some are not. 

As well as the standard Embassy postings for clerks, MP's and Int.


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## TQMS (4 Jan 2018)

Lumber said:
			
		

> My biggest take away from all this is:
> 
> 1. OUTCAN postings are complicated. Read up; and
> 2. Living in Quebec means attaching a vice to your nuts.



1. The screening is a pain. Im OUTCAN  now from APS 17. The package alone, before you start filling it out and adding stuff is 16 pages long.


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## AKa (4 Jan 2018)

I'll offer one particular piece of advice to those posted to the US. Seriously consider using Royal Bank; open both a Canadian account and US accounts.  My co-worker went with TD, while I used RBC.  My experience was much smoother.

Before I left Canada, I had a functional US bank account and credit card.  Transferring money between my Canadian and US account was easily done online and I never had any difficulties other than the usual sort of banking errors. My international brethren were green with envy.

Cheers,

AK


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## Rifleman62 (4 Jan 2018)

Get a Amazon.ca VISA card. They do not charge the exchange surcharge that banks do for changing funds from Cdn $ to foreign $.

TD is currently charging $0.035 per Cdn/US $ exchange. I live in the US during the winter and all my purchases (gas/groceries/restaurants/etc) and automatic utility bills are paid with this card. If the utility company will not take VISA, a work around is  Xpress Bill Bay. Put your utility bill on auto pay with Xpress Bill Pay with the Amazon.ca VISA card as the payment method. Used this for years with no problems. https://www.xpressbillpay.com/#/

https://www.chase.com/content/chasecom/en/credit-cards/mobile/canada/amazon.touch.html

Amazon.ca Rewards Visa Card from Chase by Chase
*Foreign currency transactions are converted at the exchange rate set by Visa International, without additional surcharges*
Earn 2% cash back per $1 spent on Amazon.ca1
Earn 1% cash back per $1 spent everywhere else your card is accepted1
No Foreign Currency Transaction Fees*
No annual fee*


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## kev994 (4 Jan 2018)

AK said:
			
		

> I'll offer one particular piece of advice to those posted to the US. Seriously consider using Royal Bank; open both a Canadian account and US accounts.  My co-worker went with TD, while I used RBC.  My experience was much smoother.
> 
> Before I left Canada, I had a functional US bank account and credit card.  Transferring money between my Canadian and US account was easily done online and I never had any difficulties other than the usual sort of banking errors. My international brethren were green with envy.
> 
> ...


+1. RBC uses PNC bank machines, which are everywhere in my area. I think the nearest TD machine is 1,000 miles away.


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## vonGarvin (5 Jan 2018)

Your mileage may vary, but in my own personal experience, TD was the better option.  I booked off the first morning of my House Hunting Trip to set up my TDBank account (the US account).  I walked in when they opened and then walked out with my account all set up, bank card and check book in hand some 20 minutes later.

My TD Canada Trust and TD Bank accounts are linked, I was able to get a US credit card from TD Bank with a nice balance (they did the credit check in Canada) and I'm able to, as required, shift money between countries.  I also have 2 branches within 2 miles of where I live.  

So, in short, check out where you are posted to and determine which is better for you.


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## dimsum (5 Jan 2018)

I used HSBC on my OUTCAN posting.  Of course YMMV as I was lucky to have branches somewhat near me (everything was done online anyway) and I kept the $ from the sale of my house in Canada in the account to quality for HSBC Premier.


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## high_octane (18 Jan 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> My screening for OUTCAN was tougher than any of my deployment ones, and more so for families.  That being said, and maybe it was just the Brookfield rep I had, I had amazing support from Brookfield on my move there and back.



Like screening dependents, your experience with Brookfield probably has a lot to do with how many things/people you try to move. They booked me a $5000 flight and when I pointed out better options for $1000 on HRG, Brookfield chimed in that I wasn't entitled to do that.. I keep that email chain! Blatant waste of tax money for the sake of blindly following poorly written policy..

I got my rep's go ahead to extend my rental while waiting for my primary vehicle to be repaired from moving damages. Later I couldn't claim any vehicle related expenses because of this.  :facepalm: I wrote a memo but after seeing the mountain of complaints they deal with and hearing some of the real horror stories, I decided to spend my energy elsewhere

Dealing with an insurance company in NY that doesn't read German receipts nor French estimates is another joy I won't get into. I got the money in the end but it took about a year and they tried very hard to get me to sign for much less. Still not sure if they are as incompetent as they appear or pretending to be in hopes you will sign for less.



			
				Once_a_TQ said:
			
		

> 1. The screening is a pain. Im OUTCAN  now from APS 17. The package alone, before you start filling it out and adding stuff is 16 pages long.



Yea 16 pages for the "checklist" not counting the annexes and printouts to be attached. I made a binder. Not having dependents lets you skip most of it though

I got through it in about 2 weeks if you don't count block leave and holiday slumps, mostly waiting for the medical appointments. Having a printout of your last security clearance request will help. Having very recently completed APRV for HR helps a lot as well.



			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Get a Amazon.ca VISA card. They do not charge the exchange surcharge that banks do for changing funds from Cdn $ to foreign $.



This has been my go to card on TD in the US and online shopping especially in USD.

Sadly will be killed off 15 Mar 18 see: https://www.chase.com/online/canada/amazon-ca-home.htm

Here's an alternative you might want to check out soon http://www.hometrust.ca/preferredvisa.aspx



			
				Technoviking said:
			
		

> My TD Canada Trust and TD Bank accounts are linked, I was able to get a US credit card from TD Bank with a nice balance (they did the credit check in Canada) and I'm able to, as required, shift money between countries.  I also have 2 branches within 2 miles of where I live.
> 
> So, in short, check out where you are posted to and determine which is better for you.



Thanks I will check out TD and RBC. I already have a TD Canada account so leaning towards that.

I discovered on recent TDs my Canadian Visa's don't work at some US gas pumps anymore, even with all the postal code-00/00000/99999/12345 tricks. Seems to be a regional/brand specific thing. US seems to be very slow with getting modern chip cards


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## RubberTree (18 Jan 2018)

Whether you can get away with a TD account is, in my experience, highly dependent on where you live. They don't have any brick and mortar banks west of North Carolina I believe. I found their method of moving cash between accounts tedious and cumbersome. I even had to place a phone call to complete a transfer. My experience with RBC has been much better. Again, your mileage may vary depending on location. 





(edited because I don't know my compass points)


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## kev994 (18 Jan 2018)

high_octane said:
			
		

> I discovered on recent TDs my Canadian Visa's don't work at some US gas pumps anymore, even with all the postal code-00/00000/99999/12345 tricks. Seems to be a regional/brand specific thing. US seems to be very slow with getting modern chip cards


Try the three numbers in your postal code followed by any 2 other numbers


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## high_octane (18 Jan 2018)

kev994 said:
			
		

> Try the three numbers in your postal code followed by any 2 other numbers



Yea.. I tried all those tricks over a month TD and seems to depend on the state and brand.

They are supposed to convert to accept chip cards by now but many seem reluctant to upgrade


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## kev994 (26 Jul 2018)

So I just cleared customs in Canada and have a couple points of interest. Firstly: the inventory that US Customs didn’t care about on the way down was important on return to Canada (just the updated one with your current goods), customs went through it line by line. 
I had taken a number of rifles with me to the US and was nervous about bringing them back. I showed the US ATF approval as both a list of firearms and proof that they were a temporary export, Canada customs was happy with that along with my acquisition license.


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## RubberTree (26 Jul 2018)

Kev, have you received your goods to follow yet? How did that work out? 
We too just crossed the border and the agent at Pierson looked through every page of the inventory as well. She stamped them all and stated "you can check off every item with customs when your truck arrives..." We'll see how that works out  ;D


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## kev994 (26 Jul 2018)

I came from the US and filled a small truck so my goods were waiting when I got to Winnipeg. After the paperwork was done the customs officer asked that my shipment be moved to the loading dock where he cut the seal. I wasn’t there but it sounded like he had no intention of actually looking at the shipment, my truck beat me out of the parking lot so if he looked it wasn’t for long. When we loaded we figured that if they wanted to see anything it would be the rifles so they were by the door. I’m pretty sure I declared everything so unloading would have been a hassle but that’s about it.


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## RubberTree (26 Jul 2018)

Sounds pretty easy...I'm not sure where are goods are going to pass through customs and unless it happens in Trenton I'm hoping not to have to be there for the seal cutting...time will tell. 
Welcome home!


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## garb811 (26 Jul 2018)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> ...
> We too just crossed the border and the agent at Pierson looked through every page of the inventory as well. She stamped them all and stated "you can check off every item with customs when your truck arrives..." We'll see how that works out  ;D





			
				kev994 said:
			
		

> I came from the US and filled a small truck so my goods were waiting when I got to Winnipeg. After the paperwork was done the customs officer asked that my shipment be moved to the loading dock where he cut the seal. I wasn’t there but it sounded like he had no intention of actually looking at the shipment, my truck beat me out of the parking lot so if he looked it wasn’t for long. When we loaded we figured that if they wanted to see anything it would be the rifles so they were by the door. I’m pretty sure I declared everything so unloading would have been a hassle but that’s about it.


And on the other side of the coin, I know a guy who had his entire shipping container laid out on the dock in Halifax when it arrived...


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## kev994 (26 Jul 2018)

garb811 said:
			
		

> And on the other side of the coin, I know a guy who had his entire shipping container laid out on the dock in Halifax when it arrived...


I was wondering about that, I assumed they had to go through some of them. I wonder if they have the random light similar to airport security.


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## Pusser (30 Jul 2018)

I've moved back to Canada twice.  In neither case were my goods laid out on the jetty.  Both times (once in Victoria, once in Ottawa), the shipping agent informed me when the goods had arrived.  I then had to pick up the paperwork from the agent, go to Customs to have it cleared (they looked at and stamped the forms).  Once I returned the paperwork to the shipping agent, my goods were delivered to my house.

I think the key to dealing with Customs is to have all of your paperwork (inventories, receipts etc.) laid out in an organized fashion.  If they can see the logic and it appears complete, they are less likely to want to dig further.  Keep in mind that for the most part, families returning to Canada from postings overseas (be they military or Foreign Affairs) are not their targets.


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## AKa (30 Jul 2018)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I think the key to dealing with Customs is to have all of your paperwork (inventories, receipts etc.) laid out in an organized fashion.  If they can see the logic and it appears complete, they are less likely to want to dig further.  Keep in mind that for the most part, families returning to Canada from postings overseas (be they military or Foreign Affairs) are not their targets.



I think Pusser has it right.  CBSA was happy with my paperwork and signed me off without an inspection when I moved back last year.

That being said, I would recommend constantly updating your inventory throughout your posting to save you time and trouble.  I had a false sense that it wasn't too important based on my move to the US, but they paid close attention to it upon my return.


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## kev994 (7 Nov 2018)

Has anyone tried to sell their previously-Canadian vehicle when they came back to Canada? Customs is telling me that I need to hold onto the car for a year or else pay duty on it. I bought the car in Canada before I moved South so this just seems wrong, though all of the info on vehicles refers to the date of import so technically I believe they are correct.


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## SupersonicMax (8 Nov 2018)

kev994 said:
			
		

> Has anyone tried to sell their previously-Canadian vehicle when they came back to Canada? Customs is telling me that I need to hold onto the car for a year or else pay duty on it. I bought the car in Canada before I moved South so this just seems wrong, though all of the info on vehicles refers to the date of import so technically I believe they are correct.



Did you fully export your car into the US or did you use the NATO SOFA provisions?


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## kev994 (8 Nov 2018)

Full export of a compliant vehicle.


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## AshleyMarie34 (27 Jul 2019)

So I have been wondering  on this one for a bit. How common are outcan posting and would anyone who has done so tell me the process? I am in the early process of joining. My significant other lives in the U.K. And is in university for forensic science. S/O is open to moving to Canada at a later date (let's say 2025) after S/O has graduated and has done some work. 

I have heard the Canadian military has posted people tomother country's for a small amount of time but I am unsure if it was due to special circumstances or what not. Also are these Canadian bases over seas or are they foreign county's bases that a member of the CAF would work at? Also along with the UK (if that's even an option) just for giggles could anyone tell me what other countries aside from the USA is able to do out can? (Ex Ireland, Australia, Argentina, etc)


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## mariomike (27 Jul 2019)

AshleyMarie34 said:
			
		

> Also along with the UK (if that's even an option) just for giggles could anyone tell me what other countries aside from the USA is able to do out can? (Ex Ireland, Australia, Argentina, etc)



OutCan Postings to Australia  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/97999.0


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## Ostrozac (28 Jul 2019)

AshleyMarie34 said:
			
		

> I have heard the Canadian military has posted people tomother country's for a small amount of time but I am unsure if it was due to special circumstances or what not. Also are these Canadian bases over seas or are they foreign county's bases that a member of the CAF would work at? Also along with the UK (if that's even an option) just for giggles could anyone tell me what other countries aside from the USA is able to do out can? (Ex Ireland, Australia, Argentina, etc)



We have personnel posted OUTCAN to many countries, including Australia, but there are none in Ireland or Argentina. As to how common it is, not very, but that is dependant on your rank and occupation. There are exchange positions, schools (including postgrad and staff colleges), NATO positions, and liaison positions. Plus a sizeable footprint embedded with GAC — not every Canadian Embassy and High Commision has military personnel, but a good number of them do.


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## Pusser (13 Aug 2019)

AshleyMarie34 said:
			
		

> So I have been wondering  on this one for a bit. How common are outcan posting and would anyone who has done so tell me the process? I am in the early process of joining. My significant other lives in the U.K. And is in university for forensic science. S/O is open to moving to Canada at a later date (let's say 2025) after S/O has graduated and has done some work.
> 
> I have heard the Canadian military has posted people tomother country's for a small amount of time but I am unsure if it was due to special circumstances or what not. Also are these Canadian bases over seas or are they foreign county's bases that a member of the CAF would work at? Also along with the UK (if that's even an option) just for giggles could anyone tell me what other countries aside from the USA is able to do out can? (Ex Ireland, Australia, Argentina, etc)



As a general rule, most OUTCAN positions are for fairly senior and qualified personnel.  The positions are also generally filled by merit.  People apply and then the most suitable candidate is chosen.  I hate to burst your bubble, but the chances of someone newly enrolled getting an OUTCAN posting are extremely low.  You have to complete all your training and reach the occupational functional point and then be selected in competition with your peers.


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## 211RadOp (13 Aug 2019)

Can't speak for other trades, but Sigs have a position in the UK, but it is for a MCpl.  The few positions, as stated already, are highly competitive in all trades.


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