# Selling of issued boots, illegal?



## Snaketnk (22 Sep 2012)

I asked because I cam across this the other day, contacted the seller as to where we able to obtain the pictured green boulet boots. They appear to be the ones that were trialed a couple years ago (they apear to be suede and not have the nylon sides like the new ones (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't been issued either boots)

He has no person information listed on his profile on the site.



> Me - Where did you manage to acquire Brand New green Boulet Boots?
> Him - Old issued kit from the military. Tried them on once and didn't like them. They still issue them out from time to time.








http://airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?p=1705878#post1705878

Just wondering what kind of action should be taken. I've saved an offline version of the page incase it disappears and needs to be referenced. I don't want to contact the moderators of the website in case they try to sweep it under the rug to save face if this turns out to be illegal. Any pointers?


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2012)

That pic below is of the CF stocked and issued desert boots (_not _the new brown combat boots) for wear overseas on operations.  Those one's below are either on his own clothing docs or someone else's.

Dude's a f'n thief.


----------



## MeatheadMick (22 Sep 2012)

This guys is selling issued items. Just like other things that come up from time to time... issued combats, issued LBV's, issued boots, etc.  NIS sometimes deals with this kind of info, especially if there is a large stock of issued items being sold...

Short answer, it's not on. This is not military _surplus_ being sold here... it's current issue, and by a private seller, probably items off his or someone else's docs, as Vern mentioned.


----------



## George Wallace (22 Sep 2012)

So.

Short answer:  Go to your local NIS/MP Section/Det and report the guy.  Have all the facts.  Have links to his postings.  Document what he is selling.  Once the MPs have the info to work with, they can investigate and charge the guy.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (22 Sep 2012)

So, what are the chances that particulatr boot is no longer on trial and the wearers were told "Trial's over, they belong to you. Nothing on your card, have a good day"?

I'd say, if that or similar, is the case, he can do whatever he wants with them.

If they were that interested in them, and they are not\ or are on his charge, they'd ask for them back.

They didn't ask for them, they're not on his charge (just guessing), he can do what he wants with them.

Once I retire, if they leave me with my boots, to add to the collection of all the others given and written off over the years, I don't expect some internet Joe Friday to start an NCIS investigation or Ministerial inquiry, if I decide that 20 pairs of boots are too many and I decide to sell some. 

Especially if they don't have all the facts.

But if that's what makes your day, fill your boots.


----------



## MeatheadMick (22 Sep 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So, what are the chances that particulatr boot is no longer on trial and the wearers were told "Trial's over, they belong to you. Nothing on your card, have a good day"?
> 
> I'd say, if that or similar, is the case, he can do whatever he wants with them.
> 
> ...



100% agree, which is why an investigation could end up being completely pointless.  The most serious criminal offense if found to be true, would most likely be theft under $5000, which in reality would be the same charge as someone shoplifting a chocolate bar.

NDA charges could be stealing, a 129, or perhaps others, however, the seriousness of the offense is always taken into consideration.

My recommendation would be to drop it, and move on with life... boots aren't serialized kit by any means. However, there are other MP's that would disagree with me and would possibly make it a full fledged report.


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2012)

Those two pair of boots are not trial footwear. They are the desert boots that came into the system circa 2005.

They are also not boots that the member was allowed to retain upon release because we can not allow troops to keep brand new footwear upon their release (and they are obviously brand new; still retain the tag/no worn sole) because it *can* be reissued. When members release, they bring their footwear into their release appointment with them, if used and member wishes to retain, then the tongue of the boot is also hole-punched so that they cannot be exchanged ... also not the case with the footwear below.

The pair of boots in the right of the pic are the obsolete desert boots that proceeded the new version (in 2005) shown on the left.


----------



## Jarnhamar (22 Sep 2012)

Sidebar;
Can I sell cf clothing that was issued to me but no longer on my docks?

What about if I try and turn shit in and supply says you can keep it if you want or throw it out we don't want it?


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Sidebar;
> Can I sell cf clothing that was issued to me but no longer on my docks?



Not if it is not permanent issue/operational kit. You are obligated to report it as surplus to your clothing docs so that it can be brought on charge. Your clothing docs are known as an IA (Individual Account) and it is your Service Number thus each individual in the CF has one, same as a SCA (Supply Customer Account - previously known as a DA [Distribution Account]). It is auditable and you are supposed to go in to verify your holdings on your IA once per three years (and to report surplus' & defeciencies). Civilian employees also have IA accounts that are their PRI numbers.



> What about if I try and turn shit in and supply says you can keep it if you want or throw it out we don't want it?



Many items are like this if they are now obsolete/worn/can not be reissued. OG combats come to mind. If it is footwear, staff will punch the tongues and allow you to retain if you wish etc. If you do not, they will still punch then send to R&D for disposal action. Uniforms will be marked in silver marker pen with a large "D", then sent for disposal at R&D. Next to skin also does not come back to clothing so if you don't want it, you can toss it out.


----------



## MikeL (22 Sep 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> They are the desert boots that came into the system circa 2005.
> 
> 
> The pair of boots in the right of the pic are the obsolete desert boots that proceeded the new version (in 2005) shown on the left.



I think the brown boots are newer then 2005,  but closer to 2009/10.  For TF 1-08 we were issued the tan boots on the right,  depending on size/stock some were issued the old Jungle Boot style desert boots.


----------



## JorgSlice (22 Sep 2012)

Not sure if Clothing Stores does this anymore but, the tongues haven't been punched so if they still do this then clearly haven't been okay'd by Stores as surplus and allowed to be taken home.

I'm just an FNG  ;D


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> I think the brown boots are newer then 2005,  but closer to 2009/10.  For TF 1-08 we were issued the tan boots on the right,  depending on size/stock some were issued the old Jungle Boot style desert boots.



They were phased; same as the brown combat boots now. Old stock (black) will continue to be issued until it is depleted. All depends upon what size you wear as to how fast you'll end up with them.


----------



## aesop081 (22 Sep 2012)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Not sure if Clothing Stores does this anymore but, the tongues haven't been punched so if they still do this then clearly haven't been okay'd by Stores as surplus and allowed to be taken home.
> 
> I'm just an FNG  ;D



Did you miss this post Mr. FNG ?



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Those two pair of boots are not trial footwear. They are the desert boots that came into the system circa 2005.
> 
> They are also not boots that the member was allowed to retain upon release because we can not allow troops to keep brand new footwear upon their release (and they are obviously brand new; still retain the tag/no worn sole) because it *can* be reissued. When members release, they bring their footwear into their release appointment with them, if used and member wishes to retain, *then the tongue of the boot is also hole-punched so that they cannot be exchanged* ... also not the case with the footwear below.
> 
> The pair of boots in the right of the pic are the obsolete desert boots that proceeded the new version (in 2005) shown on the left.


----------



## JorgSlice (22 Sep 2012)

Damn, I completely missed that line... I don't even have the excuse of age for this one.


----------



## fraserdw (22 Sep 2012)

Well then, there is a guy in Nova Scotia who has filled Ebay with issue Cadpat and even makes an effort to state it is issue.  This guy sells nothing but issue Cadpat, uniforms, tac vests, gas masks and boots, both AR and TW.  He seems to have a never ending supply of it with 270 odds sales so far.

http://myworld.ebay.ca/cferdi02


----------



## armyvern (22 Sep 2012)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> I think the brown boots are newer then 2005,  but closer to 2009/10.  For TF 1-08 we were issued the tan boots on the right,  depending on size/stock some were issued the old Jungle Boot style desert boots.



And you're correct on the dates of the pictured footwear; it is the boots on the right that were the ~2005 and the two pair to the left ~08/09.


----------



## Jarnhamar (23 Sep 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Well then, there is a guy in Nova Scotia who has filled Ebay with issue Cadpat and even makes an effort to state it is issue.  This guy sells nothing but issue Cadpat, uniforms, tac vests, gas masks and boots, both AR and TW.  He seems to have a never ending supply of it with 270 odds sales so far.
> 
> http://myworld.ebay.ca/cferdi02



Buying these combats would probably be the only way soldiers in Petawawa could get cadpat uniforms now days..


----------



## Cdnleaf (23 Sep 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> Well then, there is a guy in Nova Scotia who has filled Ebay with issue Cadpat and even makes an effort to state it is issue.  This guy sells nothing but issue Cadpat, uniforms, tac vests, gas masks and boots, both AR and TW.  He seems to have a never ending supply of it with 270 odds sales so far.
> 
> http://myworld.ebay.ca/cferdi02



Beals should be advised his/her arid floppy is for sale. Seller is not to quick on the uptake leaving names on there.


----------



## dogger1936 (23 Sep 2012)

If it was just the boot's I wouldn't bother contacting the MP's...but after checking out the link that guy got a ton of kit for sale!! 

And not one uniform got the same size.


----------



## Jay4th (25 Sep 2012)

There is an EvilBay dealer from St Albert Alberta that sells those kind of boots new all the time.  Also Arid pattern cadpat tac vests, cadpat clothing etc.  He gets it two ways.  He buys tri walls full of "D" marked kit at auction.  Secondly, he buys tons of boots straight from Boulet.  They are seconds or rejects and are the company"s to do with as they please.  Not all the new looking kit out there is stolen.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 Sep 2012)

Jay4th said:
			
		

> There is an EvilBay dealer from St Albert Alberta that sells those kind of boots new all the time.  Also Arid pattern cadpat tac vests, cadpat clothing etc.  He gets it two ways.  He buys tri walls full of "D" marked kit at auction.  Secondly, he buys tons of boots straight from Boulet.  They are seconds or rejects and are the company"s to do with as they please.  Not all the new looking kit out there is stolen.



Exactly my point also.


----------



## armyvern (25 Sep 2012)

Jay4th said:
			
		

> There is an EvilBay dealer from St Albert Alberta that sells those kind of boots new all the time.  Also Arid pattern cadpat tac vests, cadpat clothing etc.  He gets it two ways.  He buys tri walls full of "D" marked kit at auction.  Secondly, he buys tons of boots straight from Boulet.  They are seconds or rejects and are the company"s to do with as they please.  Not all the new looking kit out there is stolen.



Just for awareness, as has been posted to the site many times previously (and another message was cut recently re-enforcing the policy yet again), operational clothing for disposal action is marked with a `D`by clothing stores and it is then processed through to R&D for disposal action. As the message again states, operational kit items in cadpat pattern must be destroyed ... they can not be sold through CADC to civilian surplus shops etc. Destroyed. The message also brings up how they are again having to go out to civilian companies to try to get this stuff back as it was not destroyed. Sounds like clothing stores/R&D at certain bases need to get their heads out of their asses.

I am quite certain this "must be destructed" policy is also included in the supply manual these days. Perhaps an R&D and Clothing supervisor need to slapped upside the head for failing to comply.

Stuff may very well be marked with a "D", but it should not be placed into lots in useable condition by the base supply entities from where dude is getting his stuff if it is operational kit.


----------



## Maxadia (25 Sep 2012)

Well, there are almost 300 returns for a "cadpat" search on Ebay, so you can imagine that there's more than just those things on there, plus an unimaginable amount that ISN'T being sold online.  IMO, probably far too many for the MP's to worry about checking each and every one of them, especially when they most likely will be told "They said I could keep it, wasn't on my docs."

Does it make it right?  No.  Would they be able to get a conviction on it? Probably not if there was enough evidence shown from enough witnesses that they were told the same thing.  Considering the amount of it out there, there's obviously a lot filtering through....convicting one guy isn't going to fix the problem.

BTW...these are damn ugly - they look like someone's Cadpats barfed all over their combat boots.   ;DThat is all. 
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Genuine-Canadian-Military-Cadpat-Combat-Boots-many-sizes-/300757004914?pt=US_Men_s_Shoes&var=&hash=item8bb5f5067f#ht_562wt_1271


----------



## GeorgeD (25 Sep 2012)

What about a few very public convictions on several bases, would't that make people think twice?


----------



## armyvern (25 Sep 2012)

GD said:
			
		

> What about a few very public convictions on several bases, would't that make people think twice?



I dunno what it would take for the troops to finally "get it". 

 :facepalm:

They already* know* this is wrong. Perhaps pointing out how much it just cost the Americans in Afghanistan in lives because uniforms managed to make their way to the wrong types of people? There is a reason this policy/the rules exist. It really isn't f'n rocket science. These "sellers/thieves" may, in fact, be putting you - the troop - at risk unless they are tracking all future movement of our operational dress & kit to the John Q Public types they are illegally making it available to.  I'm not OK with that. And soldiers/sailors/air(wo)men caught doing this should be dealt with officially  ... severely.

Canadian military uniforms are made for Canadian military members. Period. Full stop. All they really need to do is think about it, but they don't.


----------



## Daidalous (26 Sep 2012)

I just read the new and cough improved supply manual.   Cadpat is still to be destroyed, same as it was 5 years ago when I was cutting endless triwalls with a pair of scissors.  My hands still hurt thinking about it.


----------



## armyvern (26 Sep 2012)

Daidalous said:
			
		

> I just read the new and cough improved supply manual.   Cadpat is still to be destroyed, same as it was 5 years ago when I was cutting endless triwalls with a pair of scissors.  My hands still hurt thinking about it.



I hate the new version of it.     Very un-user friendly. 

I saved my troops in Gagetown the hassle of scissors ~2008ish ... I contracted for a massive industrial shredder. It works awesomely.


----------



## TN2IC (26 Sep 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I hate the new version of it.     Very un-user friendly.
> 
> I saved my troops in Gagetown the hassle of scissors ~2008ish ... I contracted for a massive industrial shredder. It works awesomely.



May be Ottawa should invest in a mobile shedding truck. Just an idea. If you ask Fleet Management with his issue, I'm sure they can get their hands on one for you.


----------



## Loachman (26 Sep 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Perhaps pointing out how much it just cost the Americans in Afghanistan in lives



How many?

I do not know of any instances of US or other Coalition troops being killed by insurgents wearing US or other Coalition uniforms. There are ample cases of insurgents in ANA/ANP uniforms, however. Those would be far better for malicious purposes - an Afghan trying to mimic an American, Australian, or Canadian is just not going to be convincing.

The Americans have a huge aftermarket sales business. Uniforms and other field kit are freely sold in the US, including better-than-issued versions. Our southern cousins do not seem too terribly troubled by that, and I cannot see why we are either.


----------



## Jarnhamar (26 Sep 2012)

Loachman said:
			
		

> How many?
> 
> I do not know of any instances of US or other Coalition troops being killed by insurgents wearing US or other Coalition uniforms. There are ample cases of insurgents in ANA/ANP uniforms, however. Those would be far better for malicious purposes - an Afghan trying to mimic an American, Australian, or Canadian is just not going to be convincing.
> 
> The Americans have a huge aftermarket sales business. Uniforms and other field kit are freely sold in the US, including better-than-issued versions. Our southern cousins do not seem too terribly troubled by that, and I cannot see why we are either.



The terrorists who attacked Camp bastion were wearing US uniforms (I'm not sure if they were something older or something more modern). Still I agree it's all too easy to get uniforms any number of places.


----------



## Loachman (26 Sep 2012)

As a supplement to my earlier question, then, was wearing them of any significance? Was anybody fooled by this? How did they arrive at Bastion? In coalition vehicles, beaten-up Toyota trucks, motorcycles, or on foot? How did they move and otherwise carry themselves? Like westerners, or like Afghans? What weapons were they carrying?

I spent seven months watching people, and had no problems differentiating, and that was with, um, "less-than-ideal" Sperwer IR. Clothing had little to do with it. Yes, one could pick out a difference between our uniforms and manjammies, but movement, mannerisms, interactions, and other such indications would allow for differentiation even if both groups were dressed identically.

Somebody could drop a few hundred dollars at CP Gear and just as easily look like a Canadian Soldier who likes aftermarket kit. The only difference between CP Gear's CADPAT clothing and the issued stuff is, really, pockets, and most of those would be covered by vest and/or body armour. Imitations are also available in the older Combat Clothing style, with uncovered buttons, and there are still pers wearing that today.

Anybody could dress like one of us, however few of us would be fooled for more than a few seconds. There would be too many other clues.


----------



## fraserdw (26 Sep 2012)

I do not think that making current uniforms hard to get is going to work.  In fact, it makes them more attractive.  I know 2 guys now that have lost their Cadpat coats by hanging them in a civie doctor's office.  When the new raincoat came out the local long hair scruffs had them before most of us...how.... they shopped in the PMQs clotheslines after dark.  I challenged one long haired kid as to where he got his brand new CADPAT raincoat with RCR one hook slip ons and his mommy came to his defense saying he bought it off an army guy.  Family Outfitter's in Fredericton gets 2 or 3 CADPAT item per month from someone selling them for cash.  As of yesterday there is a patrol pack complete, 3 boonie hats, 2 shirts and a pair of new brown boots.  I seen a civie base employee working in a CADPAT raincoat the other day.  The stuff is everywhere it is not supposed to be around this here CFB Gagetown.


----------



## Stoker (26 Sep 2012)

I think if the kit like packs and tac vests are suspected to be stolen then it should be investigated by the MP's . The fact that stuff like clothing is destroyed and its this scarcity makes it in great demand for thieves to sell or wear. Put the used stuff out to the public and thefts will decrease.


----------



## EME-Glen (4 Oct 2012)

The evidence is before our feet ; just ask him where he got them from?
It should get quite interesting from there. 

Reader`s Digest entry for ``Life in Uniform`` perhaps.

Wow, he left plenty of tracks with his pair of Boulet boots.
 :facepalm:

Good luck with real answer folks.


----------

