# Another Shooting in T.O., and one Councillor wants the army to come in.



## The_Falcon (5 Dec 2007)

So I am watching Citynews tonight, and there was another shooting in the Jane/Sheppard area of Toronto, and one City Councillor (Mammolliti) actually says on air, that he wants the feds to step in and send in the army to the area, to quote "clean up the area".  So any thoughts, comments, hypothetical postulations?


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## Munxcub (5 Dec 2007)

Wouldn't that involve soldiers... with guns... in our cities?


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## arnold.c (5 Dec 2007)

The army would not make anymore difference then an ets unit. My family is from Jamaica and Hong Kong. In Jamaica there is lots of crime because of poverty and such things. Once you are used to a certain life style, even if you change it is hard to keep the change. More jobs, more community activities and other such things would make a bigger difference. Bringing in the Army would eventually force bigger guns onto the streets in bad hands. And a lot of dead civilians.


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## rmc_wannabe (5 Dec 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> So I am watching Citynews tonight, and there was another shooting in the Jane/Sheppard area of Toronto, and one City Councillor (Mammolliti) actually says on air, that he wants the feds to step in and send in the army to the area, to quote "clean up the area".  So any thoughts, comments, hypothetical postulations?



Trying to kill a swarm of flies with Hammer anyone?


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## Shamrock (5 Dec 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> So I am watching Citynews tonight, and there was another shooting in the Jane/Sheppard area of Toronto, and one City Councillor (Mammolliti) actually says on air, that he wants the feds to step in and send in the army to the area, to quote "clean up the area".  So any thoughts, comments, hypothetical postulations?



How far is that from Danforth?


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## Old Sweat (5 Dec 2007)

Somebody is either posturing or over reacting under the pressure of the moment. The military is not, repeat not, used for law enforcement except in a very limited set of dire circumstances. Jane and Finch may be a mess and might have descended into a state of criminal near-anarchy, but it is not in a state of rebellion or rampant mob violence. The rule of law is not threatened.

It ain't going to happen, unless the Ontario cabinet takes collective leave of its senses. Think Caledonia.


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## Roy Harding (5 Dec 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> So I am watching Citynews tonight, and there was another shooting in the Jane/Sheppard area of Toronto, and one City Councillor (Mammolliti) actually says on air, that he wants the feds to step in and send in the army to the area, to quote "clean up the area".  So any thoughts, comments, hypothetical postulations?



Yup - I have a few comments.

When the civil authority wants the military to intervene, we've come to a sad juncture - there is NO WAY that it should be a routine thing to entertain the idea of using military force to enforce civil behaviour.

There are local LEO forces there - this is their balliwack, IFF they think they need military backup, then the request goes through the various levels of government - it's a very serious thing, not to be considered on an ad hoc basis.

If you've got to call in the "Army" (CF), then things have gone seriously wrong.

"Soldiers, with guns - on OUR streets" - and they won't be afraid to use them - is that what you REALLY want?  I don't, and I WAS "a soldier, with a gun"


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## TN2IC (5 Dec 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> If you've got to call in the "Army" (CF), then things have gone seriously wrong.
> "Soldiers, with guns - on OUR streets" - and they won't be afraid to use them - is that what you REALLY want?  I don't, and I WAS "a soldier, with a gun"



*Silly Hat Mode*

May be call in some indirect fire? That may work!  ;D


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## the 48th regulator (5 Dec 2007)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> How far is that from Danforth?



15 Klicks by way of the crow.

dileas

tess


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## Danjanou (5 Dec 2007)

The Councillor in question is a grandstanding idiot. He's also been taking some very public flack in the past couple of days due to articles in the local paper re how he's spent his $53,000.00 + office expense budget  limos, wining and dining etc.) This stunt, well as the the D9er used to say in her old job there ain't no such thing as coincidence. 8)


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## Nemo888 (5 Dec 2007)

It is legal to do under Canadian law. If the Attourney General of a Province or the Minister of Emergency Preparedness(Stockwell Day)  thinks that there is a threat which cannot be handled by civillian authorities they can send in the CF for whatever they like.

Personally I think fixing Immigration Canada would be the first step to fixing the problem, but then I only lived in downtown Toronto for 7 years.


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## aesop081 (5 Dec 2007)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> It is legal to do under Canadian law. If the Attourney General of a Province or the Minister of Emergency Preparedness(Stockwell Day)  thinks that there is a threat which cannot be handled by civillian authorities they can send in the CF for whatever they like.



Being legal doesnt make it a good idea


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## Nemo888 (5 Dec 2007)

IT is Toronto, they call in the Army when it snows. When I was there some areas cops were not alowed to go in pairs, only 3 or more.


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## aesop081 (5 Dec 2007)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> IT is Toronto, they call in the Army when it snows.



Did i ever say that going to TO because of snow was a good idea ?


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## the 48th regulator (5 Dec 2007)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> IT is Toronto, they call in the Army when it snows. When I was there some areas cops were not alowed to go in pairs, only 3 or more.



Meh.

I Grew up In the Jane and St. Clair Area, went to Moss Park Armouries, and I now live in Malvern.  Walk on the wild side, and come with me to work on the TTC.

I hope the army comes, I can then delcare myself a Colonel, and be part of the negotiations.  I even have a DPM Smock, Nike Track Pants and runners.....

As for immigration, yep, only immigrants form Criminal syndicates  :

dileas

tess


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## rmc_wannabe (5 Dec 2007)

I think the big misconception that a lot of people have about Toronto is people are being gunned down in the street, in every borough, community and street corner in the  city. Having lived in Toronto for all me life (a whopping 19 of them ;D) I haven't seen or known of anyone being gunned down or shot in my neck of the rather big woods.

In the areas in questions the crime and violence is more systemic and culturally motivated than anything else. The key to resolving the issue is to get the guns out of the neighbourhoods, not send more in to quell the slightest thought of civil unrest


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Dec 2007)

rmc_wannabe said:
			
		

> I think the big misconception that a lot of people have about Toronto is people are being gunned down in the street, in every borough, community and street corner in the  city. Having lived in Toronto for all me life (a whopping 19 of them ;D) I haven't seen or known of anyone being gunned down or shot in my neck of the rather big woods.
> 
> In the areas in questions the crime and violence is more systemic and culturally motivated than anything else. The key to resolving the issue is to get the guns out of the neighbourhoods, not send more in to quell the slightest thought of civil unrest




Most of the killings in Detroit are confined to certain areas also. It still carries the monicker 'Murder *City*'.



> The key to resolving the issue is to get the guns out of the neighbourhoods, not send more in to quell the slightest thought of civil unrest



The key to resolving the issue is to get the *gangs and criminals* out of the neighbourhoods, not make it a safe haven for the thugs that hide behind the threat of civil unrest, should they be apprehended. The lieberal 'hug a thug program' and the 'revolving door justice system' championed by McGuinty, et al, and that NDP socialist mayor of Toronto deserve to wear the real blame.

Guns are inanimate. It takes a person to make it operate. Go after the root cause, not the tool. I guess maybe city council may get off their asses and quite harassing 75 year old, law abiding gun owners and go after the real criminals if TO became known world wide as 'Murder City of the North'.


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## 1feral1 (5 Dec 2007)

Issue out the flame throwers, ha!

Semi rant:

How about getting a justice system back and phuck off the legal system.

Any immigrants without citizenship from anywhere should be deported without any appeals processes being had.

Crimes involving guns used by non-Canadians should result in instant deportation. They can fit right in with other criminals back home from whence they came.

Bring a law like this in, and it might just curb things a bit once a few undesireables get punted back to their own crappy countries.

Canada is too piss-weak in dealing with such scum, with millions spent on ethnic crime busting squads. Thats the thanks you get for openiong your arms to them.


Semi rant off


Wes


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## Spencer100 (6 Dec 2007)

Not being versed in Military law what what are the general rules for the military use in domestic civil policing or unrest?  Do we have something like the Posse Camotus act? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act  I am sure we have some system....ie Oka.


In my *opinion* the military should only be used in civil policing the most dire of situations.  This does not include logistics help ie boats, helos, protection.


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## blacktriangle (6 Dec 2007)

32 CBG domestic ops ex this weekend...

Maybe we should switch the theme for this year?  ;D


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## Bane (6 Dec 2007)

"First of all, members of council say almost anything from time to time...I don't agree with this idea," 
                      -Mayor David Miller on Mammoliti's proposal to create a red light district in Toronto

I do not know him, but I get the sense that this is one of 'those' Toronto city councilors, that’s why I inhabit  Richmond Hill. Far more civilized  ;D


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## The Wolf (6 Dec 2007)

In Case we all seem to forget here soldiers are trained in aid to civil power and not only killing people as this poll of ........no I'll be civil........seem to think. Ever heard of Base defense force training.


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> Not being versed in Military law what what are the general rules for the military use in domestic civil policing or unrest?  Do we have something like the Posse Camotus act? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act  I am sure we have some system....ie Oka.
> 
> 
> In my *opinion* the military should only be used in civil policing the most dire of situations.  This does not include logistics help ie boats, helos, protection.



Yes we have a law it's called the Emergencies act, however there are some big differences by it and Posse Comitatus,  Nemo briefly mentioned the process, basically the province makes the request through established procedures set by the DND/CF. Its used for any emergency (fire/floods etc).


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

Bane said:
			
		

> "First of all, members of council say almost anything from time to time...I don't agree with this idea,"
> -Mayor David Miller on Mammoliti's proposal to create a red light district in Toronto
> 
> I do not know him, but I get the sense that this is one of 'those' Toronto city councilors, that’s why I inhabit  Richmond Hill. Far more civilized  ;D



Mamomoliti is the one who mentioned the jem that I used to start this (which I already mentioned.)


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## BKells (6 Dec 2007)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Issue out the flame throwers, ha!
> 
> Semi rant:
> 
> ...



Do you actually have any proof that any murders in TO were carried out by non-Canadians, or is this just a xenophobic rant?


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## Bane (6 Dec 2007)

Yeah, that's why popped that one up there. While it would be interesting to have a discussion on Military aide to civil power, all the nuances, intricacies and the such. This guy seems to be Level 4 Oxygen waster. 



			
				Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Mamomoliti is the one who mentioned the jem that I used to start this (which I already mentioned.)





			
				Bane said:
			
		

> "First of all, members of council say almost anything from time to time...I don't agree with this idea,"
> -Mayor David Miller on Mammoliti's proposal to create a red light district in Toronto
> 
> I do not know him, but I get the sense that this is one of 'those' Toronto city councilors, that’s why I inhabit  Richmond Hill. Far more civilized  ;D


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

BKells said:
			
		

> Do you actually have any proof that any murders in TO were carried out by non-Canadians, or is this just a xenophobic rant?



There was a spate of murders not to long ago (maybe 2 years ago or so) committed by members of Jamaican Gangs, several members whom had already been deported before for violent crimes.  Not all murders in this city involve non-canadians, however the overwhelming majority of the murders are gang/drug related, and most of those gang members are from Jamaica (and like I already said, alot of them have already been deported at least once before).  This has been reported widely in the media on NUMEROUS occasions over the last several years.


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

Bane said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's why popped that one up there. While it would be interesting to have a discussion on Military aide to civil power, all the nuances, intricacies and the such. This guy seems to be Level 4 Oxygen waster.



Ah seen.


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## midget-boyd91 (6 Dec 2007)

I can see it all now:
Globe and Mail, December 6th, 2007

NDP Leader Jack Layton today, reaffirmed his stance on pulling the Canadian Forces out of Afghanistan saying that "the members of the Canadian Forces are needed more at home in Toronto right now to keep the peace, than they are in Afghanistan."


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## retiredgrunt45 (6 Dec 2007)

The last time the military was called in was for the FLQ crisis in Montreal in 1970.

First off certain things have to happen before the military can be asked to intervene. First of the premier has to request "aid to civil power" from Ottawa, then if the PM concurs, he must first get approval from Parliament to enact the "emergencies act". In 1988 the (war measures act was changed to the emergencies act). Then and only then can the military be called in to assist the civil authorities. There has been only three instances when a PM has used this power in Canadian history, (WW I, WW II, October crisis FLQ). Pierre Trudeau was the last to do so in 1970 with the FLQ crisis.

The military just can't walk in and help and there are reasons for this and a few posters earlier explained why.

So if Mr. what ever his name councillor wants to call in the army, have fun explaining that to the premier.


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## Spencer100 (6 Dec 2007)

Dumb question what was Oka then?  





			
				retiredgrunt45 said:
			
		

> The last time the military was called in was for the FLQ crisis in Montreal in 1970.
> 
> First off certain things have to happen before the military can be asked to intervene. First of the premier has to request "aid to civil power" from Ottawa, then if the PM concurs, he must first get approval from Parliament to enact the "emergencies act". In 1988 the (war measures act was changed to the emergencies act). Then and only then can the military be called in to assist the civil authorities. There has been only three instances when a PM has used this power in Canadian history, (WW I, WW II, October crisis FLQ). Pierre Trudeau was the last to do so in 1970 with the FLQ crisis.
> 
> ...


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

retiredgrunt45 said:
			
		

> The last time the military was called in was for the FLQ crisis in Montreal in 1970.



Off by about 20 years, certain golf course community in Quebec ring a bell 



> First off certain things have to happen before the military can be asked to intervene. First of the premier has to request "aid to civil power" from Ottawa, then if the PM concurs, he must first get approval from Parliament to enact the "emergencies act". In 1988 the (war measures act was changed to the emergencies act). Then and only then can the military be called in to assist the civil authorities. There has been only three instances when a PM has used this power in Canadian history, (WW I, WW II, October crisis FLQ). Pierre Trudeau was the last to do so in 1970 with the FLQ crisis.



The whole of parliament is not needed, all it takes is the Governor in Council (Cabinet) http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/E-4.5/bo-ga:l_II//en#anchorbo-ga:l_II

And you forgot to mention Oka again.


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## retiredgrunt45 (6 Dec 2007)

Ok so I missed one :-[


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## Roy Harding (6 Dec 2007)

Gustafson Lake?
Ice Storms?
Manitoba Floods?
Alberta Tornado?

Others I can't think of off the top of my head, which were "Logistics" assistance, as opposed to "Armed Intervention" assistance.

Not to mention daily Search and Rescue.


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## Rayman (6 Dec 2007)

I lived about 10 years at Jane and Wilson (one major street south of Jane and Sheppard). Needless to say a good percentage of the population in that area is Jamaican but theres other nationalitys too such as East Indian and such. When I left it wasnt said to be too good of a neighbourhood. Cops were at the few local schools almost everyday. The army isnt the answer in my opinion. Though the police in that area are stretched thin as a lot of that is Blood and Crip related and while the cops try their hardest its a lot to deal with.


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## KevinB (6 Dec 2007)

retiredgrunt45 said:
			
		

> Ok so I missed one :-[



About 8 by my count, and I know I don't know them all...


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

Rayman said:
			
		

> Though the police in that area are stretched thin as a lot of that is Blood and Crip  GANG related and while the cops try their hardest its a lot to deal with.



Blood and Crips is an LA thing, and people here (and pretty much everywhere else), use it as a LCF.  There were a few instances last year were two "Blood" gangs were shooting each other.  Why?  Money and Drugs.  These Blood/Crip monikers mean nothing, in reality.


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## Rayman (6 Dec 2007)

I dont nessecarily think its nothing Hatchet. I went to school in that area and all over the place you would see the JF Bloods symbol all over the place. However the number of wannabees as opposed to those who are actually sworn members of the gang well...those are through the roof there.


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## 1feral1 (6 Dec 2007)

BKells said:
			
		

> Do you actually have any proof that any murders in TO were carried out by non-Canadians, or is this just a xenophobic rant?



Do you actually think that I go ahead and post something without any truth behind it? 

What do you believe? Do you think its bored WASPs behind the majority of gun violence in our big cities? Think again. Ethnic gang crime commited by 'non-Canadians' as you call them is alive and well, and these crimes involving the use of unregistered handguns, and commiting MURDER happens. No need to be PC and deny yourself the facts Mr Kells. I am not an idiot, just calling a spade a spade, and if you don't like my style, move on, or write your MP.

Just google ethnic gang murder Toronto and see what comes up for yourself. Then try ethnic gang murder sydney, and see what you get also, with the exception in Australia, middle eastern gangs are more prevellant, not too many Jamacians here.


Wes


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## armyvern (6 Dec 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Gustafson Lake?
> Ice Storms?
> Manitoba Floods?
> Alberta Tornado?
> ...



Damn ...

I was pretty sure we'd already recce'd Toronto -- back when we shovelled her out a few years ago.  >


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

Rayman said:
			
		

> I dont nessecarily think its nothing Hatchet. I went to school in that area and all over the place you would see the JF Bloods symbol all over the place. However the number of wannabees as opposed to those who are actually sworn members of the gang well...those are through the roof there.



Like I said, the use of blood/crip monikers is a "look cool factor" for any gang outside of LA.  It not like the blood/crips from LA have been going around setting up chapters like Biker Gangs.  They are just two names that have poplularized and glamourized by the media and various rappers.  Like I already said two "blood" gangs went after each other last year, for control of the drugs and guns in Jane/Finch.


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

> 'Send In The Army,' City Councillor Pleads In Response To Violence In His Ward
> Thursday December 6, 2007
> CityNews.ca Staff
> 
> ...


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_17422.aspx



> Chief Bill Blair Condemns Councillor's 'Call In The Army' Request
> Thursday December 6, 2007
> CityNews.ca Staff
> 
> ...


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## DualCore (6 Dec 2007)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-12-06-jamaica-violence_N.htm

Jamaica calls on army to help police curb violence 

KINGSTON, Jamaica (AP) — Jamaican soldiers will join police on patrols on the Caribbean island in a new strategy to fight rising violence, the prime minister said.
Nearly 60 homicides over the last week have pushed the number of victims this year beyond 1,430, police spokesman Karl Angell said. Most of the violence has been linked to gangs in the capital, Kingston, and the rural parishes of St. Catherine, Clarendon and St. James.

"We are going to use every resource to deal with this monster," Prime Minister Bruce Golding told a news conference late Wednesday.

Soldiers have been mobilized in the past to help quell violence on a temporary basis, but Golding said he would assign troops to crime patrols as a long-term strategy.

He said the Jamaica Defense Force soldiers may be given the same powers as police officers, but he did not elaborate or specify how many would be assigned to help the 8,000-strong police force. He said he would meet later this week with Jamaica's army chief and police commissioner.

Nineteen police officers were among those slain this year in Jamaica, including a police sergeant gunned down Thursday morning in Montego Bay, Angell said.

The crime rise has frustrated police efforts to reduce bloodshed after a record-breaking year in 2005 when Jamaica recorded 1,671 homicides, placing the nation among the most violent in the world


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

We are not at that point in Toronto (despite the fact that many of the gang members are in fact from Jamaica).


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## medicineman (6 Dec 2007)

This makes me laugh - using the same logic, Winnipeg should have had martial law declared sometime this summer with all the crap and abuse that was (and probably still is) going on.  When I was there this summer, there was a quadruple shooting in the street outside a bar 4 blocks from my apartment, two police involved shootings, some other gang shootings and knifings, and this fall a guy had his throat slashed at noontime, in broad daylight, in front of a gazillion people outside a mall (amongst other things).  I don't hear the mayor there asking for Soldiers.  With guns.  On their streets.

My bits of copper (no pun intended).

MM


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## Nemo888 (6 Dec 2007)

I saw a Somali blow my next door neighbors head off at St Clair and Eglington. I much prefferred the Asian And Tamil Gang areas. The violence was much more business oriented with less posturing machismo looking to prove itself. Don't bother telling me how nice Toronto is if you've never lived elsewhere.


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## the 48th regulator (6 Dec 2007)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I saw a Somali blow my next door neighbors head off at St Clair and Eglington. I much prefferred the Asian And Tamil Gang areas. The violence was much more business oriented with less posturing machismo looking to prove itself.



You sure about that?

Please let me in on those non posturing areas, so that I can let the "Asian and Tamils" from my area learn by their example....

dileas

tess


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## Nemo888 (6 Dec 2007)

Yes. I'm sure.


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## the 48th regulator (6 Dec 2007)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> Yes. I'm sure.



As I said, let me in on this valhalla of non posturing, I will invite the Asian and Tamil gangs to go there to learn a lesson on non posturing.

Especially at 3 am outside of my door when they are doing their rare strutting...

dileas

tess


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## the 48th regulator (6 Dec 2007)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> I saw a Somali blow my next door neighbors head off at St Clair and Eglington. I much prefferred the Asian And Tamil Gang areas. The violence was much more business oriented with less posturing machismo looking to prove itself.



For what it is worth, what threw me off was that St. Clair and Eglington are two major streets, that do not intersect.

So, were you a witness to the trial, considering you saw him do it?

Sorry if I am sounding a bit facetious, however, I find your tale hard to swallow.  You are stating facts, and I am just trying to understand it.

dileas

tess


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## JasonSkald (6 Dec 2007)

Nemo888 said:
			
		

> It is legal to do under Canadian law. If the Attourney General of a Province or the Minister of Emergency Preparedness(Stockwell Day)  thinks that there is a threat which cannot be handled by civillian authorities they can send in the CF for whatever they like.



Canada doesn't have an equivalent to the U.S. Posse Comitatus Act?


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## The_Falcon (6 Dec 2007)

JasonSkald said:
			
		

> Canada doesn't have an equivalent to the U.S. Posse Comitatus Act?



Obviously you haven't read this whole thread (all 4 pages).  Go to page 2.


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## a_majoor (6 Dec 2007)

Amazing.......

http://stevejanke.com/archives/248593.php



> *Liberal Giorgio Mammoliti wants to put soldiers in the streets. In our cities. With guns. In Canada.*
> 
> Irony of ironies. After the brutal backlash against the Liberal Party in the 2006 election over the so-called military ad, which claimed the Conservatives had plans to turn Canada into a police state with soldier patrolling the streets, we have a politician today calling for soldiers to patrol the streets.
> 
> ...


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## JesseWZ (7 Dec 2007)

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> I think I'll watch Deathwish tonight


Or perhaps a little... Boondock Saints?


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## rmc_wannabe (7 Dec 2007)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> Or perhaps a little... Boondock Saints?



Falling Down was my pick of the night


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## The_Falcon (7 Dec 2007)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> Or perhaps a little... Boondock Saints?



Well most of Boondock Saints was filmed in Toronto. >


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## JesseWZ (7 Dec 2007)

There we go. We don't need the army there, send the Saints back. Instant solution to their problem.


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## rmc_wannabe (7 Dec 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Well most of Boondock Saints was filmed in Toronto. >



Hm...along with Shoot'em  Up, anyone else see a trend here ?  ???


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Dec 2007)

JesseWZ said:
			
		

> There we go. We don't need the army there, send the Saints back. Instant solution to their problem.



Sure. White, Irish, Catholics shooting it out with Black, Jamacian, Rastas. You obviously don't remember, or even know about, Detroit or Watts in the late sixties


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## J.J (7 Dec 2007)

> Blood and Crips is an LA thing, and people here (and pretty much everywhere else), use it as a LCF.  There were a few instances last year were two "Blood" gangs were shooting each other.  Why?  Money and Drugs.  These Blood/Crip monikers mean nothing, in reality.



I am sorry to disagree, but it they do really exist in the truest form. Not just in LA, but in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Windsor, Hamilton, Winnepeg, Halifax etc. As do the Gangster Disciples, the MS 13, Latin Counts, Cash Posse (MOB) and variances of these gangs exist. We cannot forget about the Eastern European, Italian, Asian, 1%'ers (OMG), Middle Eastern, African, Irish, Hispanic and other ethnic and home grown organized crime. 

Several of these gangs/organized crime have tentacles back to their orgins, whether it be LA, Chicago, Detroit, Texas, California, Moscow, Albania, El Salvador, Sicily, Sri Lanka, India, Somalia, Lebanon etc. I can only think of one region where I have yet to meet a criminal element from and that is Antarctica...they may have some shady penguin's, but they haven't made it to Canada yet!!  ;D


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## The_Falcon (7 Dec 2007)

WR said:
			
		

> I am sorry to disagree, but it they do really exist in the truest form.


  What is that supposed to mean?  Do they exist yes, they most certainly do (all the shootings and murders would indicate such).  The point I am trying to get across though is that these gangs (bloods/crips) are NOT affliated with or chapters of some larger organization.  The members of these gangs simply choose bloods or crips because those names have been glamourized by the entertainment and media, and they want to emulate their "idols".  Any type of coherent "organization" within these gangs is minimal at best.  They are STREET GANGS, pure and simple.  Yes some (most) of the other groups you mentioned are organized, and have some sort of higher structure to them, however they are not the ones doing all the shooting in Toronto (I can't speak for other cities)


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## TN2IC (7 Dec 2007)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Gustafson Lake?
> Ice Storms?
> Manitoba Floods?
> Alberta Tornado?
> ...




Hurricane Juan! Thank you...


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## ixium (7 Dec 2007)

Even when the crips first formed, they were different groups of gangs that allied. Even those sometimes fought each other for control.


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## brihard (9 Dec 2007)

WR said:
			
		

> I am sorry to disagree, but it they do really exist in the truest form. Not just in LA, but in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Windsor, Hamilton, Winnepeg, Halifax etc. As do the Gangster Disciples, the MS 13, Latin Counts, Cash Posse (MOB) and variances of these gangs exist. We cannot forget about the Eastern European, Italian, Asian, 1%'ers (OMG), Middle Eastern, African, Irish, Hispanic and other ethnic and home grown organized crime.
> 
> Several of these gangs/organized crime have tentacles back to their orgins, whether it be LA, Chicago, Detroit, Texas, California, Moscow, Albania, El Salvador, Sicily, Sri Lanka, India, Somalia, Lebanon etc. I can only think of one region where I have yet to meet a criminal element from and that is Antarctica...they may have some shady penguin's, but they haven't made it to Canada yet!!  ;D



Indeed. Different' 'sets' within a particular gang affiliation often fight each other for any number of reasons; territory, money, some perceived slight... It's comparable to a sort of basic tribalism, and the world has ample tribal societies that fight amongst themselves when they aren't temporarily united to fight an outside force. Whether those in Toronto calling themselves Crips and Bloods actually have L.A. affiliations is barely relevant- the end results are the same anyway.


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## Brad Sallows (9 Dec 2007)

If Toronto can't manage its own affairs, it should be broken up into smaller municipalities that can.  A little devolution away from the centre often helps.


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## The_Falcon (9 Dec 2007)

The police are doing a bang up job, fighting these tards.  Its the prosecutors, judges and parole officials who need to step up to the plate, and keep these retards locked up for longer than few months.


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## Rayman (9 Dec 2007)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> If Toronto can't manage its own affairs, it should be broken up into smaller municipalities that can.  A little devolution away from the centre often helps.



I believe it was like that before Mike Harris came into power. He was the one that wanted everything in Toronto amalgamated to build the Mega City claiming that it would make it more efficient.


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## The_Falcon (9 Dec 2007)

There were Seperate municipalities yes, however the police service has been amalgamated since the 1960s


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## Hunteroffortune (10 Dec 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> The police are doing a bang up job, fighting these tards.  Its the prosecutors, judges and parole officials who need to step up to the plate, and keep these retards locked up for longer than few months.



I agree, the police are doing a hard job, without much support when they finally catch the guys. My personal experience was an eye opener for me. A sexual pervert exposed himself to a girl we had renting out the basement. When we called it in, the police went directly to his house, half a block away, they knew all about him, and where he was living. In court, because my description of him didn't exactly match, he was let go. He had gone home and changed his shoes, and got rid of the coat I saw him in. 

The police officer I talked to made it very clear that he hadn't raped anyone yet, but that would be the next step. I still get a very sour taste in my mouth remembering him walzing out free, with his girlfriend that he had met in rehab...she had been charged wih forgery. Nice couple. This is what the police have to put up with in our courts every day.


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## bdog (12 Dec 2007)

This just seems silly. The army does not really have the training to do day-to-day police work and there not much the army could do that the police cab with outwith Emergencies Act being inacted, and if it simply a man power issue would it not make more cents to bring in OPP and RCMP to re-enforce Toronto Police?


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## wade.w (21 Dec 2007)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> So I am watching Citynews tonight, and there was another shooting in the Jane/Sheppard area of Toronto, and one City Councillor (Mammolliti) actually says on air, that he wants the feds to step in and send in the army to the area, to quote "clean up the area".  So any thoughts, comments, hypothetical postulations?



I suggested this when that 11 year old boy was caught in the cross fire and killed about 5 months back....     When there is a part of the city where you are not safe while out at night alone, that is simply unacceptable in my opinion...       If there is an area of the city where you should not be because it is too dangerous (referring to the threat of humans), something should be done about it, it shouldn't be accepted as it is and has been for quite some time now.   And clearly in my opinion the police may be bound by too many laws which could be why nothing is really changing?  
 I say, go into those neighborhoods, bust down doors, search private property and kill anyone who resists.  Those "THUGS" have given up all rights given to them by law because they have created a horrible neighborhood to live in and around.   Also, I would go so far as to say the entire neighborhood has given up their rights given to them by law as well, simply because they live in a horrible neighborhood that appears to be out of control.  I mean what rights do you have anyways when you can't even walk around there freely without fear of harm from another individual?   .....in conclusion, take their drugs, take their weapons, and kill all who resist...  :skull:


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Dec 2007)

I'm losing my patience.....


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## wade.w (21 Dec 2007)

bdog said:
			
		

> This just seems silly. The army does not really have the training to do day-to-day police work and there not much the army could do that the police cab with outwith Emergencies Act being inacted, and if it simply a man power issue would it not make more cents to bring in OPP and RCMP to re-enforce Toronto Police?



I don't know much about the law or anything but if I had the army in these neighborhoods I would make sure the entire neighborhood knew that their rights as canadian citizens have been temporarily removed till the problems have been removed.   I would make sure all the known drug houses are busted into and searched.   The armies job wouldn't be to police, it would be to turn the neighborhood inside out.   taking all weapons and drugs they come across and killing the resistors.  even set up surveillance to capture the "thugs" who come into the neighborhood from another city/location..I would try to have surveillance on every single house that has its doors busted down and searched, and I would try to make sure every single house in the neighborhood is busted down and searched all in one go..which could end up being a 36 hour mission.   ..... .. hell, even while doing this, set up some voluntold programs that hopefully get the youth of the neighborhood set in a positive direction for the future...   

?

oh, and while doing this, I would make sure each soldier has a helmet cam on and is recording, as well as a cameraman following units around...   I would then get someone to turn it into a DVD and sell it to the public... and of course you would have to be careful of how much you show the public, I wouldn't want to give away all the tactics behind clearing and searching of houses.  (i don't know any)


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## Michael OLeary (21 Dec 2007)

wade.w said:
			
		

> I don't know much
> 
> (i don't know any)



'nuf said.


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## wade.w (21 Dec 2007)

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> 'nuf said.


 :crybaby: my apologies staff.  I keep on forgetting that my opinion is not welcome here.  
 it is quite clear.

I state my opinion/thoughts response from staff = snide remark.  

very comical.


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## Rayman (21 Dec 2007)

Err...Wade? Im not sure where to begin but something like that will never happen. Police cant just bust in on anyone and run them down. Those who were born here are Canadian Citizens. Even though they act like total hooligans and cause trouble they still are protected. Its rather unprofessional and im sure many law enforcement officers who are on here would agree that these Blitzkreig type crack downs while they might produce results, may cause something like a war zone. Should something be done to clean up the streets? Yes. Im from an area close to there and know what its like. Ive been robbed right in the halls of a high school I went to in that vicinity. Police are doing what they can. As well is it the neighbourhoods fault that theres one or two people who screw it up for everyone? What about the kids that are in that neighbourhood? They lose their rights cause some scum bag thinks hes all that? Im not sure how to go about solving a problem like this. But im sorry reading your post and your ideas reminds me of the Holocaust in WW2. The whole neighbourhood gives up its rights? Sounds to me like that area effectively becomes a ghetto. Busting in on everyone with a "F*** em' all no regrets" attitude? Isnt that what the Nazis did to the Jewish in Europe?


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## armyvern (21 Dec 2007)

Wade ...

Grow up.

Vern


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## KevinB (21 Dec 2007)

wade.w said:
			
		

> I don't know much about the law or anything but if I had the army in these neighborhoods I would make sure the entire neighborhood knew that their rights as canadian citizens have been temporarily removed till the problems have been removed.   I would make sure all the known drug houses are busted into and searched.   The armies job wouldn't be to police, it would be to turn the neighborhood inside out.   taking all weapons and drugs they come across and killing the resistors.  even set up surveillance to capture the "thugs" who come into the neighborhood from another city/location..I would try to have surveillance on every single house that has its doors busted down and searched, and I would try to make sure every single house in the neighborhood is busted down and searched all in one go..which could end up being a 36 hour mission.   ..... .. hell, even while doing this, set up some voluntold programs that hopefully get the youth of the neighborhood set in a positive direction for the future...
> 
> ?
> 
> oh, and while doing this, I would make sure each soldier has a helmet cam on and is recording, as well as a cameraman following units around...   I would then get someone to turn it into a DVD and sell it to the public... and of course you would have to be careful of how much you show the public, I wouldn't want to give away all the tactics behind clearing and searching of houses.  (i don't know any)



Your a frightening little Hitler aren't you..

Who do you want to exterminate next?


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## Roy Harding (21 Dec 2007)

wade.w said:
			
		

> :crybaby: my apologies staff.  I keep on forgetting that my opinion is not welcome here.
> it is quite clear.
> 
> I state my opinion/thoughts response from staff = snide remark.
> ...



You're trolling, son.

We've had our fun - straighten up and fly right.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff


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## wade.w (21 Dec 2007)

Rayman said:
			
		

> Err...Wade? Im not sure where to begin but something like that will never happen. Police cant just bust in on anyone and run them down. Those who were born here are Canadian Citizens. Even though they act like total hooligans and cause trouble they still are protected. Its rather unprofessional and im sure many law enforcement officers who are on here would agree that these Blitzkreig type crack downs while they might produce results, may cause something like a war zone. Should something be done to clean up the streets? Yes. Im from an area close to there and know what its like. Ive been robbed right in the halls of a high school I went to in that vicinity. Police are doing what they can. As well is it the neighbourhoods fault that theres one or two people who screw it up for everyone? What about the kids that are in that neighbourhood? They lose their rights cause some scum bag thinks hes all that? Im not sure how to go about solving a problem like this. But im sorry reading your post and your ideas reminds me of the Holocaust in WW2. The whole neighbourhood gives up its rights? Sounds to me like that area effectively becomes a ghetto. Busting in on everyone with a "F*** em' all no regrets" attitude? Isnt that what the Nazis did to the Jewish in Europe?


*"Police cant just bust in on anyone and run them down. "*

Again, I DO NOT KNOW MUCH about the laws however I say that the *Army* can/should be given the free will too do exactly that.

*"Those who were born here are Canadian Citizens. Even though they act like total hooligans and cause trouble they still are protected."*

And perhaps that is the very problem that allows these shitholes to persist? and these neighborhoods are shitholes, if you can't be at a certain part of the neighborhood because of fear of humans, it is a *******...  and should be "cleaned up"...

*"... these Blitzkreig type crack downs while they might produce results, may cause something like a war zone."*
Which is why the Army would be there... 

*" Should something be done to clean up the streets? Yes."*
We agree!

*"As well is it the neighbourhoods fault that theres one or two people who screw it up for everyone? What about the kids that are in that neighbourhood? They lose their rights cause some scum bag thinks hes all that? "*

It is not their fault per say but they are still subject to that unsafe living environment.  Something has to be done, and conventional law enforcement doesn't seem to work because the law is apparently on the side of the HOOLIGANS.  Also, I think it is more then just a couple people that frig up a neighborhood... What about those kids?   Yeah, lets not temporarily take their rights away so they can continue to grow up *exposed* to these "THUGS" and HOPE and PRAY to (name your god) that they travel down the right path. Or, we can take their rights away (temporarily) and set an example showing people what happens when you go down the wrong path...    like I said though, on top of that force, you also have to put in place positive programs for the kids to participate in...  like, music, sports, science clubs... etc...hell, even on top of that you have to make sure such activities can be sustained, meaning their parents have good paying jobs, low utility expenses  etc so their child can participate without worry in these positive programs..

*
" Im not sure how to go about solving a problem like this. But im sorry reading your post and your ideas reminds me of the Holocaust in WW2. The whole neighbourhood gives up its rights?"*

You're not sure, I am pretty damn sure how to do it...

You said it yourself that it probably would produce results...  and yeah I honestly think that at the moment the neighborhood becomes too dangerous to go out at night due to HUMANS it has therefore given up its rights entirely.   The Military shall teach that neighborhood that it is a group effort in maintaining a healthy/happy neighborhood?

*
"Sounds to me like that area effectively becomes a ghetto. Busting in on everyone with a "F*** em' all no regrets" attitude?"*

Yeah well, it isn't like you will be busting in their shooting..obviously only kill those who pose a threat/resist...   and well, this neighborhood we are talking about seems to have a F***em all no regrets attitude, why should we give them anything less?    

These neighborhoods we are talking about.  They are those parts of town you don't feel safe in, the known dangerous areas of town.  I just do not find this acceptable, I do not think it should be accepted either, and like I have said, the law seems to be on the crooks side...


The absolute worst part about my plan is many innocent people will be woken up late at night with their door busted open, being searched by the military.. and it is possible that some good law abiding citizens will be scared shitless at the noise, (hopefully the military ID's their selves quickly to the occupants) pick up a weapon to defend their self (from the perceived hooligans) and end up shot to death by a military member ,,,  :'( I think that is the worst part of my idea, however, does this out weigh the fact that the area continues to be a hazard to the law abiding citizens if nothing changes...?    essentially what we are doing is dedicating (unwritten) a certain area of the city as "dangerous, high crime area" *IF nothing is done...* Which again is very foolish IMO...  it should be squashed...


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## wade.w (21 Dec 2007)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Your a frightening little Hitler aren't you..
> 
> Who do you want to exterminate next?



pedophiles. I would have no problems with doing it personally. 

(I was born on roughly the same day as Hitler. FYI)


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## Roy Harding (21 Dec 2007)

wade.w said:
			
		

> pedophiles. I would have no problems with doing it personally.
> 
> (I was born on roughly the same day as Hitler. FYI)



Thank you - you've now violated the site guide lines.

CYa.


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## Rayman (21 Dec 2007)

wade.w said:
			
		

> The absolute worst part about my plan is many innocent people will be woken up late at night with their door busted open, being searched by the military.. and it is possible that some good law abiding citizens will be scared shitless at the noise, (hopefully the military ID's their selves quickly to the occupants) pick up a weapon to defend their self (from the perceived hooligans) and end up shot to death by a military member ,,,  :'( I think that is the worst part of my idea, however, does this out weigh the fact that the area continues to be a hazard to the law abiding citizens if nothing changes...?    essentially what we are doing is dedicating (unwritten) a certain area of the city as "dangerous, high crime area" *IF nothing is done...* Which again is very foolish IMO...  it should be squashed...



I dont think thats the worst part of your idea. Not only is something like that unnecessary its also just wrong. You harrass the innocent like that and all you will get is a civil war. Its killing the same people that ALL the members of the Canadian Forces swore to protect from day one. Taking away someones rights temporarily to teach them a lesson? Whats that going to teach? That if you cant afford to live in a nicer area of Toronto you are subject to losing your rights as a citizen? You know I could sit here all night disecting that post pointing out fallacy after fallacy but I will say this. This from someone who lived in one of these neighbourhoods (trust me...at night with the window open id hear the wind, the 401, and a 31 Division cruiser or two off to something), is not the answer.


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## Franko (21 Dec 2007)

Wow....

Oh well, confirmed what many here thought with that last engagement.

Regards


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