# Canadian Forces feeling strain over 2010 security



## Scoobs

*Here's an article that was written by a CP reporter about the 2010 Olympics and the military's provision of security for it.  In particular, pay attention to the Griffon comments:*

By Steve Rennie, THE CANADIAN PRESS

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan — The need for Canadian Forces helicopters to help provide security for the 2010 Olympic Games in Vancouver is likely to put strain on the military’s air capabilities in Afghanistan, the commander of Canada’s air wing said Wednesday.

Col. Christopher Coates said the air force, like other branches of the military, will be forced to juggle its resources during the Olympics.

Coates said there will be “pressure” on Lt.-Col. Jeff Scott, the new commander of the Edmonton-based 408 Tactical Helicopter Squadron, to balance the military’s air needs in Afghanistan with those of the Olympics.

“The air force is going to be involved in the Canadian Forces’ response to the Vancouver 2010 Olympics, just like the other parts of the Canadian Forces will,” he said.

“That’ll be a pressure for (Scott) in order to deal with that. There’s all sorts of domestic pressures to support all sorts of operations within Canada.”

Neither Coates nor Scott — who was sworn in Wednesday as the new commander of 408 Tactical Helicopter Squadron at a ceremony at Kandahar Airfield — could say how many choppers would be diverted from the Afghan mission to Vancouver.

“The Canadian Forces will always do the best that it can to meet the various obligations that it has,” Coates said.

“We’re constantly balancing and rebalancing resources. So, whether that means temporarily that we change training back at home or we change operations here, those are all decisions that will be made in Canada based on the priorities at the time.”

The first of eight armed CH-146 Griffon helicopters arrived at Kandahar Airfield last month. The Griffons will provide escort and protection for the lumbering Chinook transport helicopters, which are more vulnerable to ground fire and rocket-propelled grenades.

 Acquiring battlefield helicopters to move troops and supplies around Afghanistan was a key condition of last’s year’s Manley commission report for keeping soldiers in Afghanistan until 2011.

The military has touted the helicopters as a means of transporting troops across southern Afghanistan without having to drive along routes littered by with makeshift bombs, which have killed more than half of the 107 Canadian soldiers lost in the Afghan mission.

The diversion of the choppers to Vancouver will affect the military effort in Afghanistan, Scott said, by limiting the number of available helicopters.

“Because of the security requirements for the Vancouver Olympics, there’s a big drain on helicopter resources,” he said.

“So, of course, with all the operations going on here in theatre, plus the Olympics all kind of smashed together in the same time frame, that’s where the (air) wing is going to be working hard to make sure that everything gets done.”

Earlier this month, the head of the army, Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie, said up to 4,000 Canadian soldiers would be on the ground in Vancouver for the Games, stretching the military’s resources as the war in Afghanistan continues.

Some 2,750 Canadian troops are deployed in Afghanistan, mostly in Kandahar province in the country’s volatile south.


* One comment, although I wanted to post more: Trust me, we'll be okay for the number of helos in theatre.*


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## kj_gully

Not just the Griffons will be feeling the pinch, has anyone noticed the articles on Cormorant availability for SAR? Imagine adding another line of tasking for 2 months....


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## geo

KJ... who knows, there may be some Cyclones in the mix by then.... 1st one is coming off the production line in early 2009 (for training) while others thru 2010


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## Bograt

Cyclone- nope, but if I were a betting man I would expect to see Sea Kings.


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## geo

They  could just as easily "charter" civy helicopters for the activity... in which case you could see Russian helicopters over there


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## Scoobs

Cyclones:  don't count on them for the Olympics.  Plus, they are not Tactical helicopters.  Different role, different equipment.

Charter civy helos for what activity, Afg or Olympics?  Afg: chartered helos being used, but for specific things only.  Olympics: no, not for what is planned.

Reality is that the Griffon will support the Olympics, along with other Air Force assets.  There are more than enough Griffons in the CF to support the Olympics, Afg, and other domestic tasks, trg.  The journalist is not educated and is making silly statements that the Griffons in Afg may have to be pulled to support the Olympics.  Problem is that higher ups need to prioritize better than what they are doing now.


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## Yrys

Also on the "The Sandbox and Areas Reports Thread January 2009" 



			
				GAP said:
			
		

> *Articles found January 21, 2009*
> 
> Commander says choppers needed for Olympics will strain Afghan mission,THE CANADIAN PRESS
> 
> 
> KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - The commander of Canada's air wing says Canadian Forces helicopters needed
> to secure the 2010 Olympic Games in Vancouver will put "pressure" on the military's chopper requirements
> in Afghanistan.
> 
> Col. Christopher Coates says the air force, like other branches of the military, will be forced to juggle its
> resources during the Olympics. Coates says he doesn't know if the diversion of helicopters to Vancouver
> will affect the military mission in Afghanistan.
> 
> The newly sworn-in commander of 408 Tactical Helicopter Squadron, Lt.-Col. Jeff Scott, also says the security
> requirements for the Vancouver Olympics will put a "big drain on helicopter resources."
> 
> Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie recently said up to 4,000 Canadian soldiers will be on the ground in Vancouver for
> the Games - stretching the military's resources as the war in Afghanistan continues.
> More on link


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## aesop081

Scoobs said:
			
		

> Cyclones:  don't count on them for the Olympics.  Plus, they are not Tactical helicopters.  Different role, different equipment.



The Cyclone will be built to support both maritime ops and land ops. The operator consoles will be removable to allow them to be used as tactical hellicopters as required. We will not have them in time but if we did, you can bet your ass that they would be involved for both MSO and troop lift in the AOR.


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## aesop081

geo said:
			
		

> They  could just as easily "charter" civy helicopters for the activity... in which case you could see Russian helicopters over there



"chartered" and "Russian" are terms that are mutualy exclusive.


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## geo

... if you say so


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## CBH99

How would the air force be stretched to provide Griffons for the Olympics??  The sheer number of airframes in the fleet would be sufficient for us to provide aircraft for both the Olympics and Afghanistan simultaneously....no??   

I know we ordered 100 aircraft - how many of them are still available for operations though??  Excluding those dedicated to SAR, and obviously the 8 aircraft in Afghanistan, as well as those dedicated to training....we'd still have plenty of aircraft to spare, no??

Could someone in the know explain this to me a bit more - I read this earlier in the paper & it doesn't make much sense at all.


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## geo

... remember to consider the total number of aircrews & ground crews.

Also - consider that, the Tac Hel Sqns are based across the country for a reason - they are needed there for both training and operations.... Haul em off to one end of the country and what do you get - a vacuum at the other end.



> The Canadian Forces originally purchased 100 aircraft of which 85 remain in CF service.
> The remaining aircraft are based / employed as follows....
> Tac hel Sqns in CFB Edmonton, CFB Petawawa, CFB Valcartier, and CFB Gagetown;
> SAR Sqns at 4 Wing Cold Lake, 3 Wing Bagotville, and 5 Wing Goose Bay; and
> reserve Sqns at CFB Borden and Montreal.
> 
> In 2005 nine were sold to the Allied Wings consortium to be used as trainers at 3 Canadian Forces Flying Training School.


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## aesop081

geo said:
			
		

> Also - consider that, the Tac Hel Sqns are based across the country for a reason - they are needed there for both training and operations.... Haul em off to one end of the country and what do you get - a vacuum at the other end.



Geo,

OP PODIUM will take precedence over just about everything except Afghanistan. Resources will be drawn from the entire country for it. Vacuum or no vacumm, this is whats going to happen.


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## geo

.... Yeah... that was more or less where I was going with my post..... just left it open - so you could jump in and fill in the blanks.


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## Nfld Sapper

CBH99 said:
			
		

> How would the air force be stretched to provide Griffons for the Olympics??  The sheer number of airframes in the fleet would be sufficient for us to provide aircraft for both the Olympics and Afghanistan simultaneously....no??
> 
> I know we ordered 100 aircraft - how many of them are still available for operations though??  Excluding those dedicated to SAR, and obviously the 8 aircraft in Afghanistan, as well as those dedicated to training....we'd still have plenty of aircraft to spare, no??
> 
> Could someone in the know explain this to me a bit more - I read this earlier in the paper & it doesn't make much sense at all.



You forget that we don't have 100 airframes, according to the Air Force Site we got 85 left and at any one time a number of airframes would be down for maintenace/inspections, the rest might be tasked for courses/training/SAR Standby/Operations.


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## Zoomie

I would expect all colour variants of helicopters to be used.  Green, grey and yellow.  To state that the Cyclone is not a tactical helicopter is a huge misnomer too - there are only three combat aircraft in the CF - CF-18, CP-140 and Seaking/Cyclone.  

I would imagine that 19 Wing's ramp will be full of aircraft in support of the Op.  I can only dream that they need/want an executive shuttle aircraft with jammy leather seats and pressurized comfort - and the ability to land at Pemberton.  Go go King-Air.


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## danchapps

4000 troop to support the Op being a crunch? Not really. Yes, some troops will be sent to BC, but not all 4000. Some will stay in Edmonton to act as a rear support, taking supplies from here and shipping them there. Just another day at the office. And for those that do go to BC, it's just like all the other Ex's we do, only it's the real deal. The Op Podium group will be made up of those not on TF due to them coming off of TF 1-08 or those that weren't assigned to 3-09. The boots on the ground portion isn't going to be a strain.


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## dapaterson

Chapeski said:
			
		

> The boots on the ground portion isn't going to be a strain.



Apparently we sat in on different briefings...


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## aesop081

Chapeski said:
			
		

> The boots on the ground portion isn't going to be a strain.





			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Apparently we sat in on different briefings...



I agree with dapaterson. I will be one of those boots on the ground ( so to speak) and the strain will most certainly be painful.


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## Run away gun

Word in LFCA is that 2 RCR is the lead unit for ground troops to the olympics, to coincide with their preparations for high readiness. However I am sure there will be lots of troops from other 2 brigade units and also 1 brigade units out there. 

But with 3 RCR coming off high readiness and right into supporting 1 RCR high readiness training, plus units out in Edmonton doing the same thing, a lot of soldiers are no doubt going to be feeling the strain. I don't think it is going to be a problem to get the numbers, but I think commanders are going to have to be sure not to be sending guys who are on the brink of burning out from back to back tours and whatnot.


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## Nfld Sapper

Anyone know if there is plans to bring troops form 5 CMBG and LFAA out for this?


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## danchapps

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Apparently we sat in on different briefings...



From the supply standpoint it seems as though this won't be an issue, it only means we will be away from home for 3-4 months once we deploy to the Op. I still don't see how it is a strain.  We train (as usual), we prep (as usual) and we deploy within Canada (for many as usual) I understand as an Infantry stand point the training may be different and more intense, however my briefing indicated we will be there as a just in case option, the RCMP is taking the brunt of the security effort. From what we were told we would most likely be in one of 4 places (I believe), Edmonton, Chilliwack, Abbotsford, or Comox. Other than JTF2, I haven't heard anything about any patrols being sent out by the CF. But, I'm just a Supply Tech, so what do I know.


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## dapaterson

1.  With 4K military pers, we aren't a "just in case option" - we will be an integral part of the security efforts, performing a variety of roles.

2.  Right now, the Army has 9essentially) 2.5K deployed, twice that returned in the past year, and about 1 1/2 times that prepping to deploy.  That's over 11K pers tied up to support Afghanistan; depending on ranks and trades and skillsets needed for Olympic security that may strain things tremendously.

3.  For those with DWAN access, look at the Army Homepage, select CLS, then look at a G3 update to get a sense of what is currently planned for deployment / support.

On a tangent to point 3:  I'd argue than everyone, MCpl on up, should familiarize themselves with the Army G3 monthly updates - it's a great way to understand what's going on in the larger army, and to see what's coming down the pipe.


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## Nfld Sapper

thx paterson will do......


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## danchapps

dapaterson I'll try and check that out tomorrow when I get into work. I specifically recall the CDS mentioning that we aren't playing a lead role in this, and that we were going to be there as a minor player. From the supply stand point, we have the ability to supply from close and from far, and we will have many stay here in Edmonton to support the Op, as well as having those in the Vancouver area.


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## aesop081

Chapeski said:
			
		

> From the supply stand point,



For many of us, the standpoint will be much different. You have your little piece of the job but theres much more to it.


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## George Wallace

Chapeski said:
			
		

> ............. The boots on the ground portion isn't going to be a strain.





			
				Chapeski said:
			
		

> .............. But, I'm just a Supply Tech, so what do I know.





4,000 troops for General Duties would not be a strain.  Unfortunately, we are not talking about GDs.  We are looking at 4,000 troops with very specialized skill sets, whose Trades are already finding themselves very strained to maintain such a commitment, and the commitments that follow.


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## dapaterson

Chapeski said:
			
		

> dapaterson I'll try and check that out tomorrow when I get into work. I specifically recall the CDS mentioning that we aren't playing a lead role in this, and that we were going to be there as a minor player. From the supply stand point, we have the ability to supply from close and from far, and we will have many stay here in Edmonton to support the Op, as well as having those in the Vancouver area.



"Not the lead" - true.  RCMP is the overall lead for security.  But with 4K plus on the ground, we'll be anything but a "minor player".  Many things we do will not necessarily be seen on TV, but will fulfil important roles and crucial tasks just the same.


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## Scoobs

I'm not sure why a post on helos for the Olympics got turned into a discussion for supply or troops?  After all, this section is for Air Force and in particular "Rotor Heads".

Cyclones are being bought to replace the Sea Kings, not the Griffon.  Thus the comment that they are not Tactical Helicopters.  Also, cyclones will not be ready in time for Van 2010.  I was just responding to geo stating that they possibly could be used for the Olympics.  

Note that I already said that other a/c types would be used.  However, the Griffon will have its specific roles and locations, just as other a/c will.  I will not discuss roles or locations due to security reasons, but other a/c will be involved in the Olympics.  That is a given.

We no longer have 100 Griffons.  Some were sold off/given away when a force rationalization was done a couple years back.  We went down to 85.  Some are in Afg and the rest are in Canada.  There are more than enough Griffons in the fleet to support both the Olympics and Afg.  However, as other posters have said, there are other tasks that must continue, such as trg for aircrew, maintenance of a/c, and other domestic ops.


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## GAP

U.S. military to assist in Vancouver
February 2, 2009, 9:21 PM ET
Article Link

 VANCOUVER -- The United States military will be cooperating with its Canadian counterparts to provide security for the 2010 Winter Olympics.

Canadian Forces officials said Monday that the combined operations fall under the provisions of joint command NORAD, said Canadian Rear Admiral Tyrone Pile, commander of Joint Task Force Games.

"They have to be involved," Pile said. "We share a common border with them."

Pile said the U.S. will contribute Coast Guard and Navy vessels but there will be no American troops involved on Canadian soil.

Full details of security measures are not being released for operational security reasons.

The news of the U.S. involvement comes two weeks after Col. Christopher Coates, said the air force, like other branches of the military, will be forced to juggle its resources during the Olympics.

Coates, the commander of Canada's air wing in Afghanistan, said the Canadian military does not have enough helicopters to meet its commitments in Afghanistan and provide security for the Games.

But, said Pile, both domestic security and operations abroad will be "appropriately resourced."

A Canadian security and terrorism expert said helicopters are essential tools for perimeter work in the layered security employed at large- scale events such as an Olympics.

Martin Rudner, the founding director of the Canadian Centre of Intelligence and Security Studies, said a helicopter perimeter is the outer layer of security, the first line of defense of many around a "point of vulnerability" such as a Games venue.

The announcement of U.S. involvement comes as more than 1,000 soldiers, police officers and other security staff are converging in the Vancouver area for a massive security planning exercise.

Exercise Silver is the second of three test runs being held for the Games and will involve live what-if scenarios on weather, terrorism, earthquakes and other possible threats to the Games.

Games security was originally estimated at $140 million to be split between the provincial and federal governments.

The Canadian government has since acknowledged that cost could be as high as $800,000 million -- 1 billion in Canadian funds.
More on link


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