# Morale Booster? Bronze Stars On Hold for Snipers



## Spanky (23 Apr 2002)

How's this for a morale booster?   The awarding of three bronze stars and two bronze stars with distinction are to be awarded to PPCLI snipers.   DND has told the Yanks to hold off because of "Canadian Protocol" issues. 

Also, one of the snipers has been sent back to Canada 2-3 weeks ago to be charged.


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## rceme_rat (23 Apr 2002)

What can you do?  Make someone a hero and he will always disappoint you.  Just look back to the young soldier in that famous photo at Oka.

As for the Bronze Stars themselves-- if the soldiers did something that justifies a medal, shouldn‘t it really be a Canadian medal?  Or should the policy be that any country can award medals to anyone they like?  Or perhaps a middle ground - the soldiers can receive their medals, but not be permitted to wear them in uniform?

Why is it that while many people mock the Americans for their floral displays of ribbons, there is still a demand for Canadians to be awarded US medals?

Personally, I would allow the soldiers to receive their US medals as a token of apprecaition from a grateful US government, not allow those foreign medals to be worn unless specifically authorized, and submit the citations as evidence towards the award of an appropriate Canadian medal which could be awarded if their actions meet our standards.

As for the soldier‘s upcoming court martial, I expect that is probably a matter separate from the cited events.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Apr 2002)

CFAO‘s lay down almost that exact criteria. Look at the Freedom of Kuwait medal given to CF participants of the Gulf War as example.


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## Harry (23 Apr 2002)

BS, ever since the Prime Minister had his tete de tete with Sir Conrad Black and Chrétien invoked a decades-old precedent called the Nickle Resolution, we seem to have forgotten some of our heritage, including military.  The aforementioned precedent does not preclude awards from allies whom we are engaged in battle with, only personal peerages.  

And before anyone goes off on a tangent about the Kuwait Medal, do some homework first, you might be surprised.

2 PPCLI was awarded the United States Presidential Distinguished Unit Citation.
  http://www.awm.gov.au/korea/operations/kapyong/kapyong.htm 

 http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~ppcli/kapyongkoreaj.html 

 http://www.cdnarmy.ca/inf/ppcli.html


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## Michael Dorosh (23 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by rceme_rat:
> [qb]What can you do?  Make someone a hero and he will always disappoint you.  Just look back to the young soldier in that famous photo at Oka.
> 
> As for the Bronze Stars themselves-- if the soldiers did something that justifies a medal, shouldn‘t it really be a Canadian medal? .[/qb]


NO.  Canadian soldiers have ALWAYS been eligible for foreign awards for valor - many, many CEF soldiers held Russian, French and Belgian medals, and it was not uncommon in WW II and Korea for Canadians to be issued US medals, usually Bronze or Silver Stars.

This is nothing new, don‘t know why the change in policy.

Other armies have always allowed foreign awards to be issued.  In WW II, the Germans, Romanians, Hungarians, Italians, Finns all bestowed medals on each other while fighting on the Russian Front, to deserving soldiers, for example.


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## Michael Dorosh (23 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by rceme_rat:
> [qb]As for the Bronze Stars themselves-- if the soldiers did something that justifies a medal, shouldn‘t it really be a Canadian medal?  Or should the policy be that any country can award medals to anyone they like?  Or perhaps a middle ground - the soldiers can receive their medals, but not be permitted to wear them in uniform?[/qb]


What good is a medal if you can‘t wear it?????    

Check out the appendices of some regimental histories, both WW I and WW II - you will notice quite a few "foreign" medals, and as far as I can tell, many WW II vets wear foreign medals in their "racks" - by custom, they always go at the end of the ribbon bar.

I know for a fact the 1943 Dress Regs cite foreign awards as last in the order of precedence of decorations.  I wonder if a look at current medal regs wouldn‘t garner the same thing.  You can wear a Silver Star or Bronze Star, but it goes last, even after the CD.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Apr 2002)

Right or wrong here‘s the spin:

The award of an order, decoration or medal by a foreign power to a member of the Canadian Forces (CF) is governed by the "Policy Respecting the Awarding of an Order, Decoration or Medal by a Commonwealth or Foreign Government". The policy, promulgated by the Privy Council, is reproduced in  Annex A. 

2. For the purposes of this CFAO, "foreign power" includes other nations of the Commonwealth. 

3. When a unit or individual is approached by a representative of a foreign power in respect of a foreign award, the representative shall be tactfully informed that Canadian Government concurrence in the award should be sought through normal diplomatic channels, that is via the foreign ministry to the Canadian Department of External Affairs. Without such concurrence, the award will not be recognized in Canada and may never be worn or displayed with official Canadian awards. 

4. Each request is adjudicated by a government Honours Policy Sub-committee. If concurrence is granted, the foreign power may notify directly the individual or unit concerned of presentation arrangements. The individual or unit shall pass this information immediately to NDHQ/DC (Director Ceremonial) by message, with copies to the chain of command. 

5. If, despite tactful advice, a foreign government presents a member of the CF with an order, decoration or medal at an official function without gaining prior Canadian government approval, the member diplomatically cannot refuse the award. The member shall not wear it thereafter, but shall refer the case to NDHQ/DC with a full explanation of the circumstances. 

6. A member who was awarded an order, decoration or medal by a foreign power prior to enrolment may be granted approval to wear the insignia and ribbon while in uniform. To obtain approval the member shall submit a written request to the member‘s commanding officer (CO), accompanied by documentary proof of the award. The CO shall forward the request with the original or photocopy of the documentary proof, through normal channels, to NDHQ/DC. 

7. If a member is granted authority to wear a foreign award, a copy of the authority shall be filed on the Unit Personnel Record and the NDHQ personal document file.


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## centurion (23 Apr 2002)

Da Big thug da Shawinigan probably still won‘t allow it. Even after the commitees agree to let them have it. Mainly because he won‘t get one, no money for his war chest and no favouable press to spin. And his cronie tv personality, the GG won‘t have one to wear with HER CD (that she served how many years to get?)!


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## Harry (23 Apr 2002)

Whether we like it or not, the GG is the C&C of the CF and the HRH representative to Canuckle head Land, subsequently she is entitled to the CD and a couple other chest fillers as such.



> 5. If, despite tactful advice, a foreign government presents a member of the CF with an order, decoration or medal at an official function without gaining prior Canadian government approval, the member diplomatically cannot refuse the award. The member shall not wear it thereafter, but shall refer the case to NDHQ/DC with a full explanation of the circumstances.


As for the awarding of foreign medals, decorations and orders, para 5. (posted by ‘recceguy‘) above is the rule not the the exception.  

The reason the Kuwait Medal went down the crapper is they asked for permission to issue it officially beforehand.  If it had been given out to the troops by the Royal Family first, (see para 5.) it would probably be worn today.

J.C. and the Grits road show will probably rain on our boys parade and probably kill this one (surprise me Thug Boy), with an obligatory CDS Com in lieu, whoopee phuk.

I used to always chuckle when I saw the guys with a chest of Merican medals in our CF.  Medals from the Nam no less.

J.C. (not likely) or whomever from the PMO who watches this site, get your fecal matter in order and do the right thing.

UBIQUE


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## Michael Dorosh (23 Apr 2002)

Interesting recceguy, but nothing of what you said disputes what I have said.

There is AMPLE historical precedent for the continuous wearing of American and other foreign decorations for bravery, and if the government/DND decided to give the requisite permission to troops to wear them, there would be no issue.

The question is, why is the policy changing?  This permission has always been granted in the past, or so I thought.  I have seen many ribbon bars in museum collections named to Canadian soldiers and including American and French awards.  So why all of a sudden would that change?

I suspect the desire is to issue Canadian medals vice American medals - but in this case, the Canadians were serving with US forces, so the award of US decorations - and their wear - seems like a natural.


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## Michael Dorosh (23 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by centurion:
> [qb]Da Big thug da Shawinigan probably still won‘t allow it. Even after the commitees agree to let them have it. Mainly because he won‘t get one, no money for his war chest and no favouable press to spin. And his cronie tv personality, the GG won‘t have one to wear with HER CD (that she served how many years to get?)![/qb]


Let‘s stop beating that dead horse already.  The Governor General is entitled to it by the terms of her appointment, it has always been that way, and always will.   I thought the GG acted with extreme class at the Unknown Soldier ceremony, gave a great speech, and she continued that act of class with her flight overseas to visit the wounded soldiers from this latest incident.

Some of you crusty buggers obviously have nothing better to do than piss and moan about every little thing under the sun, to the point of inventing stuff to whine about.  Why on earth should serving in the military be a prerequisite for being the Queen‘s Representative in Canada, if that is what you are suggesting?


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## Harry (23 Apr 2002)

Whoah, As I indicated, the GG is our Commander in Chief, end of story, end of gong wishy washy banter, they are the symbols of the GG appointment as HRH representative.  Make us a Republic and we can sort it out, as for me, I like the idea of a GG.

Dorosh, yes she has proven herself beyond reproach with the troops in Ramstein (finally home today).  Even her husband was well received (in private by the troops and Americans).

Lets just watch the ball on this whole topic for a bit.  

The medals, as I indicated, there is a great amount of derision with the PMO   :crybaby:   after the Black fiasco, not optimistic on this one either.


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## rceme_rat (24 Apr 2002)

I don‘t have a problem with the award of foreign medals, so long as they:  1) are for some significant merit (e.g., the Bronze Star),  2) arise from reputable circumstances (probably no dispute here), and 3) aren‘t more appropriately recognised by a Canadian medal.  (If the soldiers were under US command, then it would seem appropriate to give them the US medal.  But DND may choose to award them a Canadian medal instead, recognising the meritorious service to an ally).

The approval by DND of the foreign award ensures these points.  There really shouldn‘t be an issue in this particular case given the precedent for other Canadians receiving the Bronze Star once the award had been approved.


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## Fishbone Jones (24 Apr 2002)

MD,
Like I said, right or wrong. I didn‘t post to get in a urinating contest with you. Just posted the present government criteria so the young fellas would understand what‘s going on and why.


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## Spr Earl (24 Apr 2002)

If they earned it let them wear it!

  I‘m fed up with slow erotion of our heritige and tratidtion‘s all for the sake of muti cult and the rest.
 We must keep our Tradition‘s even when it come‘s the awarding of foreign medal‘s.

 As I said before we will not have a Army of those which we have taken over and are the Guardian‘s of.

 Is this why we are so small that the Power‘s that be are afraid of us TRUE CANADIAN‘S may force a COUP? Because our Gov. has let the populous as awhole and us serving members down big time when it has come to supporting the Armed Frorce‘s

 Some time‘s I wonder if there is a diabolical plot to take away the prideand teeth of our Nation?


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## Disturbance (25 Apr 2002)

Its like that game that kids play with toys. At first kid A doesnt want the toy, but as soon as kid B goes to play with the toy Kid A gets all upset and trys to take it back. 

If the guys back really knew what was going on why wouldnt they put in for medals of our own before the US commander did? Its pretty sad when we are getting more recognition from the states than we are up here. A lot of the yanks that I know who love to bash us, are finally waking up to the bull**** we deal with and how good we actually are in the world and are giving praise. Fuk NDHQ and this protocol crap. I‘ll give‘em something to protocol.


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## Jungle (25 Apr 2002)

It‘s all about jealousy, as usual... from the upper echelons of the chain of command. Look at the Gen‘s and Col‘s chests, what do they wear ? CD, MMM, CDA 125... and soon the golden jubilee.
I‘ve always believed in the CDN soldier. We are warriors and we are very good at what we do. But the CofC has a big problem with that. Things are bound to change, as our services will be in demand in future cbt ops. I hope the PPCLI snipers are given what they deserve, and that the sniper program in the Army is finally given the credit it deserves.


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## portcullisguy (25 Apr 2002)

The Nickle Resolution, which was the main issue in the Black v. Chretien debacle, is a House of Commons policy document which prohibits the issuing of foreign and Commonwealth titular honours to Canadians.

A titular honour is one that brings with it the right to style oneself in a particular way, such as a knighthood or baronetcy ("Sir John Brown"), or a peerage, or for that matter a Scottish barony or lairdship or English lordship of the manor, which are only feudal honours and not honours of the Crown.

There is no prohibition on the award or wearing of foreign orders, decorations and medals, except as prescribed by CF regulations.

Honours which do not bring a title are also acceptable, such as admission to UK Orders below the rank of a knight, a Companion of Honour (Trudeau received a CH), etc. 

More particularly, hereditary honours are discouraged in Canada.

This resolution is quite silly, if you ask me.  Afterall, our Sovereign holds that position by primogeniture succession, and is also the highest ranking peer and knight in the Realm, since she is the sovereign of each order of knighthood and the sole fount of honour in Canada.


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## Harry (25 Apr 2002)

The Nickle Resolution

I am VERY aware of what this resolution does and does not preclude.  However, there is confusion within the PMO and at NDHQ WRT to ‘OFFICIAL‘ protocol.  The Black incident was brought forward as an example, but also as it (the Nickle Resolution verse Sir Conrad Black) has been mentioned in light of the recent circumstances of the American Medal flap within the PCO.  Thus I mentioned it.  The PCO and PMO are the ones who seem a little confused (the PM is still burned over Black‘s insolent behavior) on protocol and seeing as how they have the last word, my ref to it.

This whole dogâ€™s breakfast is being MANAGED.  DND does not seem to be in any rush to promote the cause, but is waiting in the wings for what ever direction they are given fro the PCO.  So much for DHH having input.


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## bc_railfan (26 Apr 2002)

can someone inform me as to the story behind the soldier in the picture at Oka?  I remember seeing the picture but cannot recall any relating story....


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## Infanteer (26 Apr 2002)

The DNDsucks, I cant believe I work for a boss that act ively sh*ts on my head.  Its my buddies that makeit worth it.  Well I‘,m dragging my drunk as$ tro bed gentlemen


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## Michael Dorosh (26 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by chet:
> [qb]can someone inform me as to the story behind the soldier in the picture at Oka?  I remember seeing the picture but cannot recall any relating story....[/qb]


He was disciplined for drug use, IIRC....hopefully someone else can provide a fuller answer than that.


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## rceme_rat (26 Apr 2002)

Picture was of a nose-to-nose stand-off.  He looked resolute, confident, determined, etc - ideal poster boy for the modern military.  Soon gets fast-tracked in career progress after photo receives huge print publication and TV broadcast.  Then gets busted for possession.


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## Marauder (26 Apr 2002)

Wanna know what would boost my morale? I‘d like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off Chretien‘s head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I want to look up into his lifeless eyes and wave like this. [waves] Can anyone and their associates arrange that for me?


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## Harry (26 Apr 2002)

Are you crazy, can you imagine getting past all that security, to be foiled with an Innu soap stone carving to the head by Mrs. Chretien.   :blotto:


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## Spr Earl (27 Apr 2002)

> Originally posted by Harry:
> [qb]Are you crazy, can you imagine getting past all that security, to be foiled with an Innu soap stone carving to the head by Mrs. Chretien.    :blotto: [/qb]


That‘s the best one I have heard in along time. ROTFL LOL


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Apr 2002)

Marauder,
Little SOCNET creepin in here?     You bring a smile to these old features that should crack my skin!!! What a hoot, only crows picking out the eyes and bats nesting in that crooked, slack jaw could complete the picture.


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## Spanky (1 May 2002)

Excellent column in the National Post; I like the way this guy sees things.
 http://www.nationalpost.com


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## Michael Dorosh (1 May 2002)

Which one?


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## Marauder (1 May 2002)

Well RecceGuy, I have found that NCOs give me less cock when I intersperse some humour into my continual pestering for a jump or recce course.    Hasn‘t worked yet, but I am a stubborn young Padawan who hasn‘t the sense to take no for an answer.     :mg:  

Can you clear something up for me? Was it a Bison, Coyote, or LAV that was at the Armouries and at the display in front of the casino there last week? I asked three people and got three answers. So much for vehicle recognition.   :blotto:


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## Spanky (1 May 2002)

Marauder;
It was a Coyote.  It came down with a crew from RCD Recce Sqn.


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## Spanky (1 May 2002)

Sorry, the column was by Mark Styn, entitled, We Are No Longer At Ease With Soldiering.

The vehicle that was in Windsor was a Coyote.  It came with a crew from Recce Sqn RCD.


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