# Ex Valiant Guardian @ Wainright



## xander (3 Dec 2006)

Just received this.



> 1. Comd LFCA has directed that in order to raise the bar for reserve collective training and to provide an orientation to the unique training capabilities of Canadian Maneuver Training Center (CMTC), Ex VALIANT GUARDIAN 2007 will be conducted at the Western Area Training Centre (WATC) in Wainwright, Alberta.
> 
> 2. The Dates of the exercise are 11 to 23 Aug 2007, (end date may be extended to 26 Aug).


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## George Wallace (3 Dec 2006)

Well, young Gnr, this is indeed interesting news.  I am sure that there is a small fortune of Pirate Gold stashed away in the subterranean lairs of LFCA that will cover the costs of transporting all three Bdes of Reservists out to Wainwright for a couple of weeks of training.  Most interesting indeed.


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## HItorMiss (3 Dec 2006)

Well it's good to finally see Reservist getting the same useless and mediocre training as the rest of us who have been forced to do Maple Guardian at CMTC  :

As George said where is the money coming for this, oh and who is going to crew all those vehicles the ResF guys can't cause they don't have a need for them. Yup this looks well thought out.


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## Haggis (3 Dec 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well, young Gnr, this is indeed interesting news.  I am sure that there is a small fortune of Pirate Gold stashed away in the subterranean lairs of LFCA that will cover the costs of transporting all three Bdes of Reservists out to Wainwright for a couple of weeks of training.  Most interesting indeed.



The number of troops who go will be 1/3 of last year.   One infantry company, one recce troop etc. from each of 31, 32 and 33 CBGs will form a composite LFCA "Task Force".

ARC runs until 31 August this summer so there will not be the giant influx of soldiers and staff to VG that has been the norm in previous years.


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## career_radio-checker (3 Dec 2006)

There is more truth to the message than you give credit. On the Vigilant Guardian 06 Smoker, Col. Judd told all of 33 Bde that LFCA wants to send a contingent from each Bde to CMTC for next year's 'Summer Camp.' Of course they weren't going send the whole brigade there but word is it would be around a COY size (1 from each of the 3 brigades).

I know for a fact that the quality of training has changed since you were there for MG 06, HOM. I was part of OPFOR. We all thought MG 06 was a complete Gong Show, even 2 months before you guys arrived we knew it was going to be a gong show because they had us setting up all your tents (It wasn't our idea to set up the main FOB in a cow patty filled field  ). But then, MG 06 was the first time they had a fully staffed OPFOR. They also now have the WES gear in full operation and better simulation explosives. OPFOR is better trained and the role of CIB (civilians in the battlespace) has been contracted out to a bunch of civilian actors. To give you an example of the advantage of CMTC, the 'Market' VG 06 attempted to simulate with a Mod tent set up behind Tim Hortons on Petawawa base will actually resemble a market at CMTC. For a young reservist who doesn't get better training than humping through the Petawawa woods and shooting off blanks every summer, CMTC might actually be a good thing.


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## Pikache (4 Dec 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The number of troops who go will be 1/3 of last year.   One infantry company, one recce troop etc. from each of 31, 32 and 33 CBGs will form a composite LFCA "Task Force".
> 
> ARC runs until 31 August this summer so there will not be the giant influx of soldiers and staff to VG that has been the norm in previous years.


So what are the rest of reservists in LFCA be doing for CAC?


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## Haggis (4 Dec 2006)

HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> So what are the rest of reservists in LFCA be doing for CAC?



Working at ARC/NRC or staying home.


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## GregC (5 Dec 2006)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> I know for a fact that the quality of training has changed since you were there for MG 06, HOM.



I was just at the last run through of CMTC, got back I believe the 22 of November or thereabouts. I'm not going to get into huge details here, (mostly because I've got to hit the sack before another day of course asessments) but it was basically 4 weeks of my life I will never get back. I got very little training value out of it, and the only reason I got ANY value was because I'm brand new to the company, and only 6 months in batallion. Ask some of the guys who have been doing workup for almost 9 months, and they wouldn't be nearly as kind as myself when speaking of CMTC.


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## Sig_Des (5 Dec 2006)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> I know for a fact that the quality of training has changed since you were there for MG 06, HOM.



I dunno. I was there since HoM was,  from our aspect as far as Fleet management, I can only describe it in one way, and it rhymes with "crusterbuck" This is also from talking to the guys on the pointy-end who'd come through.

I'll be back there in Jan-Feb with 3/07, and we'll see if there's an improvement.

As far as the reservists from LFCA going there, is it just me, or will they be limited to fleet allocations they can use, IE, G-Wagons and LAVs, out?


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Dec 2006)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> As far as the reservists from LFCA going there, is it just me, or will they be limited to fleet allocations they can use, IE, G-Wagons and LAVs, out?



Why wouldn't they be able to use G Wagons?


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## recoverygod (5 Dec 2006)

In all my years i have been to many of those all unit exercises, and i have learned one thing.  It depends on the commanders as to how the ex will go.  I have been to quite a few useless ones.  ( like using big yellow school buses for troop transport, and having the driver be all camed up)  to a full propper tac ex.  I will in Wainwright as a civi.  and i think i am part of the ex that will be there.  I will let you know after what i thought of it all. As an on looker from the other side.


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## Sig_Des (5 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Why wouldn't they be able to use G Wagons?



I'm just not sure the extent of G-Wagon quals. Probably more so with the Res Armoured units, but what's the extent in the qualifications in other trades? I know that as far as Comm Res units, it's practically nil.


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## Loachman (5 Dec 2006)

We had the Initial Planning Conference on the last Saturday in November. I got word only two days prior that we were holding it in Downsview rather than Pet and that the ex would be in Wainwright. The first thing that I did was check my calendar to see if we'd fast-forwarded to 1 April.

There are a lot of people working very hard right now to deal with this change. A recce/fact-finding mission is taking place this week to answer some of the very huge questions that came out of the IPC - and there is a big bunch of those.

Problems aside, and those already mentioned are recognized, this is also seen as a great opportunity to improve upon the quality of training delivered over the previous SG/VG iterations.

It will be a blend of MD and VG as already envisioned.

There is a cap of 1200 participants, although the number of likely participants is one of those huge questions. This is based primarily upon the ability of CMTC to accept large numbers, availability of pers, and the cost of flying them out and back.

Training will be aimed, again, at section/platoon (and equivalent) level within a company/battle group setting so those of you at the pointy end should have a good time. It will not be a battle group level exercise with huge waits between activities.

As for the costs, the estimate presented indicated that there was only a difference of $46,000 between VG 07 as previously envisioned and this revised version. That may change as some of the variables are worked through, but it's still not likely to be significantly different.

There's not much more that I can say at this time, because nobody knows much more yet, other than this is being brought to you by pretty much the same group of people that gave you SG and VG over the last four years. If you liked those, then you should like this at least as much, and hopefully more.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Dec 2006)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Working at ARC/NRC or staying home.



There should be viable training opportunities for those not able to go. Doing GD for the Battle School or range cleanup, is not a viable or acceptable alternative, because you didn't get 'chosen'. I imagine more than a few people have already set time aside to attend this thing.


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## career_radio-checker (5 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> There should be viable training opportunities for those not able to go. Doing GD for the Battle School or range cleanup, is not a viable or acceptable alternative, because you didn't get 'chosen'. I imagine more than a few people have already set time aside to attend this thing.



Seeing how the Ex runs from 11 Aug to 23 Aug many Reservists will probably still be in training/ on course. I believe that in itself will solve a large portion of the question of who gets "chosen". But I couldn't agree more with you recceguy that no one should be stuck on cleaning detail while others get to go to Wainwright.


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## Pikache (5 Dec 2006)

career_radio-checker said:
			
		

> Seeing how the Ex runs from 11 Aug to 23 Aug many Reservists will probably still be in training/ on course. I believe that in itself will solve a large portion of the question of who gets "chosen". But I couldn't agree more with you recceguy that no one should be stuck on cleaning detail while others get to go to Wainwright.


So I'm guessing the new guys fresh off their BIQ or whatever equivalent is not going to Wainwright then?

Well, I always thought having the CAC right after ARC was good way for new guys to practice what they learned over the summer at an ex away from course settings, as well begin to get integrated into their home units. (As well get to do some 'fun' stuff like shooting some live ammo or ride choppers or what not)

Certainly is an incentive for new troops to not turn in their kit after a few months because they don't think they have much 'fun'.

Well, I suppose this is a way to cut down the pool of number of reservists who might want to go on this ex.


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## recoverygod (6 Dec 2006)

I thought (knew) that they planned to end the resv courses to tie into to the CAC/ARC Exs for that reason.  but i guess times change, when the entire military is over tasked.  lol


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## Loachman (6 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> There should be viable training opportunities for those not able to go. Doing GD for the Battle School or range cleanup, is not a viable or acceptable alternative, because you didn't get 'chosen'. I imagine more than a few people have already set time aside to attend this thing.



This, too, is appreciated and being taken into account.

The primary aim of this series of exercises is to give the best training possible to as many reserve troops as possible. That is the intent of everybody involved in planning and conducting it, from the Comd on down.

Please wait and see what evolves during the planning process before jumping to conclusions, everybody.


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## Loachman (6 Dec 2006)

HighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> Well, I always thought having the CAC right after ARC was good way for new guys to practice what they learned over the summer at an ex away from course settings, as well begin to get integrated into their home units. (As well get to do some 'fun' stuff like shooting some live ammo or ride choppers or what not)



Based upon discussions during the planning process for past Stalwart/Vigilant Guardians, many ARC courses were compressed in order to complete them in time to get personnel, vehicles, and radios etcetera onto the exercise. This was felt to compromise course quality and the decision was made last year to avoid that.

With Valiant Guardian starting even earlier next year (although specific dates are not yet firm), ending ARC courses in time would be an even greater problem.

And at least this Area will have a concentration, and most likely a very, very good one, whereas other Areas will not.


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Dec 2006)

Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here.

The guys going west will use the resources provided by WATC (vehs, radios, etc)

Area courses will still be in full swing, using the resources (vehs, radios, etc) provided by individual units. In many cases, the Units total resource of that commodity.

What are the soldiers, not on course, left back in Area going to use for equipment to conduct their very, very good CAC.

Perhaps it's time to take a page from Western Area. We here in LFCA are severely short in both the Jr & Snr NCO establishment. How about sending the 1200 chosen  to WATC, and for the rest, local run rank qualification courses. Maybe, perhaps, it's time to spend some money, resources and time filling our gaps, rather than spending 10 days in Pet. This looks like maybe a pretty opportune time.


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## Loachman (6 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Okay, I'll play devil's advocate here.
> 
> The guys going west will use the resources provided by WATC (vehs, radios, etc)
> 
> ...


I will freely admit to not fully understanding some issues that do not pertain specifically to my area of involvement, plus these conferences split into working groups of which I can only participate in one - but I do listen and try to soak up as much as I can.

I did not take notes on the radio shortage issue, for example. This has plagued prior SG/VG iterations, and it is still going to be a problem despite CMTC's holdings. The inability to use some, many, or all of the ones used for ARC courses is a factor, if I remember correctly.

Leadership at the PTA level is recognized to be a problem, as a significant number of those in demand are involved in ARC training. Yes, I suppose that leadership courses could be run instead of an ex, but the ex gives leaders the opportunity to lead and, from my ex-militia days, a very rare one in a meaningful tactical setting. There are not the resources, both personnel or equipment, to do both.

The "very, very good" concentration is going to be the one in Wainwright. What happens back here, if anything, is still one of the huge questions. Only basic brainstorming-like discussions were conducted in that regard, as there simply wasn't time or sufficient information to do anything more meaningful at the time. A good deal of the IPC was devoted to pretty much to determining what the recce/fact-finding party needed to do this week. As such, I'm not willing to discuss those matters.

I do not expect to hear any more until the new year, as the recce/fact-finding party will need to report back and their findings digested first.

In the meantime, the same questions being asked here, and way, way more, were asked at the IPC.


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## Northern Touch (6 Dec 2006)

Well, attendence will drastically drop without ARC, and I can only imagine how many people won't be going because now they have to take 2 weeks off of work instead of the usual 1.


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## Bomber (6 Dec 2006)

Sounds like it could work, I just don't know how well.  Within my unit, my detachment is made up of myself (Class B) my 2ic (full time day job) and my det of 8 guys (7 are students and 1 with a full time job).  A 2 week exercise in Wainwright may work for me cause I am on the armies time anyway, but that is about it.  All the det members will be off with ARC, possibly working civvy jobs, or getting ready for the coming school year (res, books, classes).  This is mirrored through the rest of the unit, and possibly through the rest of the regiments in the Militia.  We have been asked to provide numbers tonight.  Hopefully there will be a re-scope if the numbers are to low, and the entire end of summer concentration won't be called off simply because only 300 people could find the time/availability/motivation to go to Wainwright for so long.


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## brihard (6 Dec 2006)

If I'm not mistaken, this seems very much like an exercise with a stronger focus on the junior leadership. We're generally the students with free time in the summer, who are already qualified and are tasked to ARC out of availability, not necessity.

I'll be very interested to see how this pans out. I'm already planning my discussion with our OPS WO with regards to planning my summer employment... I don't intend to allow myself to miss CAC for the third consecutive summer because they jerked me around with courses and taskings.

As much as you regs see little training value in CMTC, for those of use used to 4 or 5 weekends a training year in the field this should be a pretty good experience.


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## Fishbone Jones (6 Dec 2006)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Leadership at the PTA level is recognized to be a problem, as a significant number of those in demand are involved in ARC training. Yes, I suppose that leadership courses could be run instead of an ex, but the ex gives leaders the opportunity to lead and, from my ex-militia days, a very rare one in a meaningful tactical setting. There are not the resources, both personnel or equipment, to do both.



If they don't start running courses that can be attended, by next year you won't have any leaders to experience the opportunity to lead. Few that are entering the promotion gate can afford two weeks of CAC and another 4 weeks to get qualified to the next rank level. Their jobs won't allow for it. All we're doing by ignoring it, is digging ourselves deeper into a hole, until the ladder will not reach the top.

 Imagine having enough instructors, GD's, training areas, equipment and support to sort everyone out in one summer? I still think we should forget the Ex for one year and get caught up. Let's put our resources where we get long term, viable gain instead of a 10 day feel good reach around.


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## George Wallace (6 Dec 2006)

Actually there is a point to be made there.  If you need your Junior Leaders as Instructors and already have a shortage, where will you get Junior Leaders to go to Wainwright?  Most will be tied up instructing courses.


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## Spanky (6 Dec 2006)

Going to Wainwright and CMTC would certainly provide a good opportunity for some decent training.  The shortage of junior leaders, however, could have a serious negative effect on the training.  I know that in our unit's situation we are pushing our MCpls to take the four weeks off of work and attend career courses.  We are in desperate need for these pers to progress.  They will not be able to take the two weeks off to go to CAC as well.
We also count on the people coming off the summer courses to fill vacancies left by those more senior troops who cannot attend.  With ARC going so late, that will be a problem for us.  If other units are in our situation, a cap of 1200 may be optimistic.


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## Pikache (10 Dec 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Actually there is a point to be made there.  If you need your Junior Leaders as Instructors and already have a shortage, where will you get Junior Leaders to go to Wainwright?  Most will be tied up instructing courses.


And cpls will be leading sections... again.

Most of them try hard, but lack of experience hurts... and it hurts learning of the soldiers under their command.


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