# LF no BS answer on how to get the new Ruck.



## 63 Delta (22 Mar 2009)

As title states, looking on how to get the new ruck. Im a Trooper to be deployed on TF 3-09. I wasnt around for the initial kitting of the new Ruck in September. Ive gone to Clothing and asked, but they have no answers. Im also not the only one without it. Going to be kind of stupid when im the only guy on a patrol without the new ruck. Please no answers with "The new ruck sucks, stick with the old oner" or "your armoured you'll never use it". 

My thoughts are there must be some kind of system in place to get rucks out to guys who need them. What if a soldier overseas breaks his ruck, or it gets blown up? They must be able to replace it... 

Thanks.


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## dangerboy (22 Mar 2009)

The way the ruck is issued right now is clothe the soldier goes to the base and issues the ruck and gives lectures on the ruck.  The current policy is without the lectures you can not get issued the ruck. If the ruck gets destroyed you will get issued a new one as it is on your clothing docs.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Mar 2009)

I don't think you need to worry about wearing a rucksack on a patrol as an armored soldier?

Either way we had people who missed the initial kitting due to courses.  I guarantee there are higher ups who missed the same kitting you did so you can bet your hat there's going to be another last minute kitting. There was with us.


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## aesop081 (22 Mar 2009)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> Ive gone to Clothing and asked, but they have no answers.



What did your boss say ?


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## geo (23 Mar 2009)

HULK,
If your unit was issued their rucks, then you should have gotten yours at the same time.
Given that you were not there at the time, it is THEIR responsibility to see that you get yours.
Through your chain of command, ask them to look after you!
Talk to your section commander.... wait ten days - memo to your Troop Warrant, pause 10 days - memo to the next one in your CoC.


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## Snaketnk (24 Mar 2009)

Truth be told, I've had my name taken for the new rucks 4 times since november, all going up to at least Pl WO level, and nothing's happening. My best guess is that there's a shortage of ruck-sizing qualified personnel to do the job of issuing them. It's not like I'm in some obscure reserve unit in the middle of nowhere here, so I figure the problem's just about the same elsewhere in the CF.


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## armyvern (24 Mar 2009)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> As title states, looking on how to get the new ruck. Im a Trooper to be deployed on TF 3-09. I wasnt around for the initial kitting of the new Ruck in September. Ive gone to Clothing and asked, but they have no answers. Im also not the only one without it. Going to be kind of stupid when im the only guy on a patrol without the new ruck. Please no answers with "The new ruck sucks, stick with the old oner" or "your armoured you'll never use it".
> 
> My thoughts are there must be some kind of system in place to get rucks out to guys who need them. What if a soldier overseas breaks his ruck, or it gets blown up? They must be able to replace it...
> 
> Thanks.



The new ruck is not stocked at base level, nor are the sizing jigs. Clothing Stores can do nothing for you. This is national CTS policy and it is CTS control of this item that prevents you and others in first line units from getting this item now -when you need it-. You will be sized for it and issued it when CTS arranges to do another visit to your location and you jump through the hoops they arrange there. 

The sizing jigs are held by CTS in NDHQ. Personnel requiring the new ruck *must* attend the lessons on utilizing this kit. They must also be sized by qual'd pers using the CTS jigs that are kept in NDHQ. CTS must present these lessons (their policy, not Supply's, nor clothing because if it were up to us....). If you do not attend the lessons OR the sizing ... CTS will NOT release a ruck from the depot to your local clothing outlet for you.

We are in the exact same situation here. As is every other 1st line unit in Canada who has had soldiiers posted into it since CTS had visited that location. Their next visit to this lcation is end-May ... and we've had troops waiting since last APS.

No BS - you get to wait until next time CTS is at your base on a TD trip so that they can personally oversee you get the lessons and sized.

How's that for total control of Army kit? Not very convenient ehh? Not very conducive to actually getting the kit into the hands of the soldiers either is it? I have pers here qualified to size you, but I can't get the jig to actually DO that. Nor can we give you the lectures (more ppt death). Go figure.

But heck, it keeps a project cell (and some people in it employed) now over a decade old in business doesn't it? 

NO BS from me. That's how it is. Sometimes, the truth hurts. I do not agree with the stranglehold they have on this and other items ... it's killing our trade and is actually preventing us from kitting and supporting soldiers like you when you need that support.


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## Snaketnk (24 Mar 2009)

Vern, any idea when CTS is supposed to come by Gagetown next?


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Mar 2009)

Still got mine sitting there Vern?


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## 63 Delta (24 Mar 2009)

Thanks a lot for all the No BS replies, much appreciated. And Army Vern your insight into how it works well be passed on to others in the same boat; hopefully they wont take their rage out on the innocent Supply techs  . 

Rumour has it that there will be another kitting before deployment, but to late for Suffield/Wainwright...


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## armyvern (24 Mar 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Still got mine sitting there Vern?



Absolutely. You did attend the lessons and the sizing by CTS that we did in Newfoundland. It was shipped here with your name all over it.


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## Nfld Sapper (24 Mar 2009)

Err... yes yes I did  ;D

only been sized not "trained" on how to bend the damn rods


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## armyvern (24 Mar 2009)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Vern, any idea when CTS is supposed to come by Gagetown next?



End-May. And that's to size/lesson out the ResF mbrs from 36 & 37 Bgde who were not sized during the last visit CTS/Clothing Gagetown did to NS, NB, Nfld due to being away on courses etc. PEIR will also be looked after in May.

We are currently arranging our nights for the duration of their visit (and weekends too) so that we can get the RegF guys who've been posted in to 1st line since their last visit done at the same time as CTS' trip down for 36 & 37.

Exact date/timing for stragglers from your Unit should be out shortly.


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## Snaketnk (24 Mar 2009)

Thank you so much for that, a little late for our ex in April, but I can be assured that I'll have it before too long. Thanks again.


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## armyvern (24 Mar 2009)

Snaketnk said:
			
		

> Thank you so much for that, a little late for our ex in April, but I can be assured that I'll have it before too long. Thanks again.



Nema problemo; that's why the green relish-outfitters choose to pay me.


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## medicineman (24 Mar 2009)

I can't believe it's cheaper to send a bunch of CTS yahoos across the country on TD a gazillion times than to publish a nice little booklet like they did for the '82 pattern webbing/ POS rucksack (even if the ruck sucked  ;D).  Gee, I even remember how to disassemble/reassemble it, as I just had to in order that it got some long overdue cleaning done for my BFT this week...

MM


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## armyvern (24 Mar 2009)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I can't believe it's cheaper to send a bunch of CTS yahoos across the country on TD a gazillion times than to publish a nice little booklet like they did for the '82 pattern webbing/ POS rucksack (even if the ruck sucked  ;D).  Gee, I even remember how to disassemble/reassemble it, as I just had to in order that it got some long overdue cleaning done for my BFT this week...
> 
> MM



Booklets!!?? PPTs!!??

I've got people qualified to size with the jigs - it's the jigs we can't get.

What, exactly, are you suggesting?  8)


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## 1feral1 (24 Mar 2009)

I remember those 1982 booklets.

Why one needs to attend lectures on a back pack is beside me.

So from no booklets (1964 ruck) to a booklet 1982 eqpt, to now attending lessons and sizing. 

Whats next for the future generation of rucks after this one?

Sounds way to complicated, and politically correct.

No lessons - no ruck   , wow.


Cheers,

Wes


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## medicineman (25 Mar 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Booklets!!?? PPTs!!??
> 
> I've got people qualified to size with the jigs - it's the jigs we can't get.
> 
> What, exactly, are you suggesting?  8)



V,
Did you not state you needed to attend the lectures as well?  If it were as simple as your very capable techs fitting the (eventual) would be users with the jigs, they'd all have the rucks wouldn't they?  I'm suggesting that someone in Ottawa stop that time honoured ass protecting/bank account building bit of leadership known as "carving a niche for myself and only myself for perpetuity" (OK, even I'm a bit guilty).  Unless of course I misread all that and should get those 2 neurons of mine back synapsing together instead of where ever... ;D.

MM


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## Fishbone Jones (25 Mar 2009)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> The new ruck is not stocked at base level, nor are the sizing jigs. Clothing Stores can do nothing for you. This is national CTS policy and it is CTS control of this item that prevents you and others in first line units from getting this item now -when you need it-. You will be sized for it and issued it when CTS arranges to do another visit to your location and you jump through the hoops they arrange there.
> 
> The sizing jigs are held by CTS in NDHQ. Personnel requiring the new ruck *must* attend the lessons on utilizing this kit. They must also be sized by qual'd pers using the CTS jigs that are kept in NDHQ. CTS must present these lessons (their policy, not Supply's, nor clothing because if it were up to us....). If you do not attend the lessons OR the sizing ... CTS will NOT release a ruck from the depot to your local clothing outlet for you.
> 
> ...



OK, I had a really good rant all typed out, then deleted it, so now I feel better. Suffice to say, that has got to be one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of in my 30 some odd years of serving. Yep, we need more empire builders : 

I know an organization that needs an enema.


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## armyvern (25 Mar 2009)

medicineman said:
			
		

> V,
> Did you not state you needed to attend the lectures as well?  If it were as simple as your very capable techs fitting the (eventual) would be users with the jigs, they'd all have the rucks wouldn't they?  I'm suggesting that someone in Ottawa stop that time honoured ass protecting/bank account building bit of leadership known as "carving a niche for myself and only myself for perpetuity" (OK, even I'm a bit guilty).  Unless of course I misread all that and should get those 2 neurons of mine back synapsing together instead of where ever... ;D.
> 
> MM



Yes, I did mention lectures. Death by powerpoint.

You mentioned booklets, I mentioned PPTs because if the lectures are really required ... can't _anyone_ present a PPT? 

We're trained to do the sizing - quite surely we can also present PPTs (or better yet, hand out pamphlets) too.

If only they'd let us.


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## medicineman (25 Mar 2009)

But how would they get their extra TD cash then  :?

MM


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## Teeps74 (25 Mar 2009)

Only in Canada... This CTS program appears more and more like some retiree's golden handshake then an actual, kit-the-troops type gig. 

I was giddy, happy, and excited when this program started. Finally, someone is taking the needs of the soldiers seriously. Then the Tac Vest came out, followed shortly by hundreds of ignored UCRs.

Now the ruck-sack that requires high priced TD oversight just to issue.

Newsflash!!!

If you need to teach people how to teach how to put it on and size it properly, you made it too complex. If it is too complex, it is going to fail. The infantry/engineers (sorry, not to sound superior, just picking the two groups that live out of rucks most frequently... Arty and armd seem to have big vehs with them everywhere) needs a rucksack, that can be replaced quickly on the battlefield, at three o'clock in the morning, by troops who have not slept in three weeks. 

I am sure that this is a fine rucksack. And when fitted properly, it could be the most comfortable ruck on the market... I admit the potential is there. But the supposed complexity, coupled with the self licking lollipop that is the CTS, has put a real sour taste in my mouth.


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## PuckChaser (25 Mar 2009)

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> (sorry, not to sound superior, just picking the two groups that live out of rucks most frequently... Arty and armd seem to have big vehs with them everywhere)



On that same token, its been noted on the forums here that the new rucksack is not very armored vehicle friendly either, so just like the TV it's been designed as a camping rucksack, not a warfighting rucksack.


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## Canadian Mind (25 Mar 2009)

the TV wouldn't even be good for camping, mag pouches aren't sized to fit hunting ammunition.


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## Pointer (25 Mar 2009)

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> As title states, looking on how to get the new ruck. Im a Trooper to be deployed on TF 3-09. I wasnt around for the initial kitting of the new Ruck in September. Ive gone to Clothing and asked, but they have no answers. Im also not the only one without it. Going to be kind of stupid when im the only guy on a patrol without the new ruck. Please no answers with "The new ruck sucks, stick with the old oner" or "your armoured you'll never use it".
> 
> My thoughts are there must be some kind of system in place to get rucks out to guys who need them. What if a soldier overseas breaks his ruck, or it gets blown up? They must be able to replace it...
> 
> Thanks.



I could see how that would be embarrassing - being the only armd crewman amongst your fellow armd crewmen to be wearing the old/64 rucksack on patrol, conducting what must be a long-range/term (necessitating the ruck vs a smaller pack) armoured dismounted (oxymoron) operation.  Of course, such an operation would be an embarrassment in and of itself, so I think your ruck would be the least of your worries.  

I'd be more worried about getting the new refrigeration suit thing if I were an armd guy.


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## Matt_Fisher (27 Mar 2009)

Pointer said:
			
		

> I could see how that would be embarrassing - being the only armd crewman amongst your fellow armd crewmen to be wearing the old/64 rucksack on patrol, conducting what must be a long-range/term (necessitating the ruck vs a smaller pack) armoured dismounted (oxymoron) operation.  Of course, such an operation would be an embarrassment in and of itself, so I think your ruck would be the least of your worries.
> 
> I'd be more worried about getting the new refrigeration suit thing if I were an armd guy.



I don't think that what is in question here is his perceived, vs. actual need, or whether the rucksack is judged as a good or bad piece of kit.  What is in question seems to be a policy as echoed by an infanteer on the board, and validated by Vern's explanation that is creating a situation whereby people who are on the scale of entitlement are not able to access that kit, because of some rather severe administrative friction elements.

If you had troops in your platoon in 1VP straight out of battle school who were not around when CTS visited your unit, and as such were not able to be issued the rucks, until the next time that CTS rucksack team was scheduled to come out to Edmonton (which may be during your TF 3-09 Maple Guardian serial, or during pre-deployment leave, or whilst you're deployed) what'd you be saying?


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## geo (27 Mar 2009)

I know what I'd be saying... but there are ladies & gentlemen here - I will spare you the /$?%&*!!!


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## geo (27 Mar 2009)

Funny thing that... If I was shopping around for a new car, I would go into the showroom, have a seat in one of their demonstrators & study all the controls that are visible - be they seat adjustments, dash & steering wheel controls, etc.  If the controls aren't laid out & labeled in an intuitive manner AND if I need an instruction manual to figure out how to make things work.... It's too darned complicated & I would walk out the door -  no time flat.

This new rucksack sounds like one of those complicated cars I detest


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (27 Mar 2009)

I think the ruck (not having tried it yet, so just a guess) is no more complicated to use than any other internal frame ruck. Even Kifarus come with basic instructions just to ensure that the donning/doffing happens in the right sequence (and these ARE good rucks). This ensures the most comfortable fit every time the ruck is worn. Don ruck, pull shoulder straps, clip belt around waist, pull top staps to pull ruck in, and pull delta-straps on waist belt to pull ruck in.
As someone stated earlier, CTS seems to have gone a little overboard with this one (empire building was the term used I think). Soldiers are not trusted to read a one page instructions sheet with pictures (funny, most of us remember having to assemble the 82 pattern ruck and webbing using the instruction manual - sometimes with some instructor guidance). Now, if they are there to bend the internal stays to "fit" the user, that may be another entirely different issue.


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## Fishbone Jones (27 Mar 2009)

So what happens when someone's ruck gets smashed in the field. No self proclaimed specialist around with fancy assed jigs to fit your new one. Guess you'll have to haul your kit around in garbage bags till you can get the 'specialist' out of his office. Heck, will second and third line echelons (we still have those right? :blotto even have them or be able to issue one without his nibs in CTS saying so?

That is exactly how ridiculous this situation is.


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## armyvern (27 Mar 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So what happens when someone's ruck gets smashed in the field. No self proclaimed specialist around with fancy assed jigs to fit your new one. Guess you'll have to haul your kit around in garbage bags till you can get the 'specialist' out of his office. Heck, will second and third line echelons (we still have those right? :blotto even have them or be able to issue one without his nibs in CTS saying so?
> 
> That is exactly how ridiculous this situation is.



If only you knew how exactly close you were.

We don't stock 'em in 1st or 2nd line echelons. We size you etc etc , final numbers are tallied up. Nominal roll with SN is provided. Confirm that those on the list have the tics' in the boxes.

CTS then directs the SM to 'push' the components to our location from the 3rd echelon to satisfy the guys who've sized/trained. Then we issue to you.

Somedays, I swear we've reverted back to the era of the Crimea (sorry Edward -  ).


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## medicineman (28 Mar 2009)

As I always say, our motto is "If it makes sense, do the opposite".

MM


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## medaid (28 Mar 2009)

Frack... Me....


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (29 Mar 2009)

Multiple size options to fit the end-user - great concept, poor execution.

All Kifaru asks for is height, weight, and inseam. A "custom" ruck is then made with the frame bent to the average user.


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## Brockvegas (5 Apr 2009)

As an 031, I'll tell you the honest to god truth. Find out what day they're issuing the new rucksacks, then make a doctor/dentist/colonoscopy appoinment for that day. I would gladly take the 82 back, or get my hands on a 64.

The new rucks are great for morning PT marches without any other kit on, and that's about it. They don't work well with the frag or TV. (which is funny when you thin about it, CTS SHOULD have been able to make them compatible)


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