# The Simunition Merged Thread- Check Here First



## AlphaCharlie (4 Feb 2004)

Does Canada use simunition when training? 

I‘ll assume you guys know what it is.


If they do... mm sounds like fun!


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## Redeye (4 Feb 2004)

We do use simunitions, yes.  They are a useful training aid, though not without some problems, mostly related to the protective gear required for its use.


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## Sh0rtbUs (4 Feb 2004)

do they make those annoying noises?


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## Redeye (4 Feb 2004)

What annoying noises?  It sounds like regular small arms fire but quieter.


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## Sh0rtbUs (4 Feb 2004)

aaahh k. I was told they make this horrid high pitch tone when you‘ve been hit.


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## Slumsofsackville (4 Feb 2004)

Your thinking MILES, Which is Laser TAG. They make the high pitch tone when hit. 

Simunition is Paintball, For AR‘s. I just used them last weekend, and on bare skin it hurts.


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## Jeff Boomhouwer (4 Feb 2004)

Its basically a plastic 9MM round filled with coloured chaulk. They are great for C Q B but pretty useless after 50 metres. They add alot of realism to FIBUA. Troops tend to be alot more carefull after gettin one center of mass. They don‘t have anything for the guns yet. Full auto can be troublesome. However the worst part has to be the Darth Vaderlike head gear. No pereferal vision and they fog up instantly. Poor visiblity in low light conditions. Other than that they are  far supior to blanks. If there was a way to marry MILES gear ( for long range and fire support) and simunition ( CQB) that would be a winner.


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## Slumsofsackville (4 Feb 2004)

It‘s not chaulk. It‘s paint. Still got it on my vest. They use 9mm, but also 5.56mm around. 

 http://www.simunition.com/ 

Heres What it looks Like when yah get hit.


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## Redeye (4 Feb 2004)

It‘s neither, actually, it‘s soap (detergent) of some sort.

Is that a Tac Vest?  Where did you get it?


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## Slumsofsackville (4 Feb 2004)

It‘s not soap, soap comes off, LOL. Yes it‘s a Tac Vest. Where did I get it, I sign for it.


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## shaun_bougie (5 Feb 2004)

Simunition is a detergent based paint.  It‘s actually both.  Went through this story when I did block training with Ontario Provincial Police.  They use simunition for their training and it‘s actually a very interesting approach to training.  It adds quite a bit of realism and when it‘s done safely it‘s great.  There have been known accidents with it but that‘s because people haven‘t paid attention.


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## portcullisguy (5 Feb 2004)

Simunition started in law-enforcement-world as a training aid, and was quickly adapted to the military for OBUA training.

It has its limitations, but it‘s pretty fantastic stuff.

We used it during Ex Stalwart Guardian, and apparently we will use it again next month at Fort Drum on a combined unit FTX (48th, QOR and RRC)... more OBUA stuff.

They mostly have adapters for pistols and SMGs as this is where it all started, but the Colt M4 upper receiver (which goes on your C7 lower receiver) is great kit, and turns your 1m long hunk of firepower into a shorter, OBUA-friendly assault rifle.

What I don‘t like are the cheap, easily breakable mags.  Also, I seem to recall the mags held fewer rounds than the normal 30-rd mags ... I might be mistaken, August was a long time ago.

A few friends of mine are Toronto cops, and they all got to play with Simunition at Ontario Police College during some traffic stop scenarios, and again back at Toronto‘s C O Bick police college, they did some fun indoor stuff (judgement training, etc).  I believe the tactical cops also use Simunition extensively in their training.


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## Slumsofsackville (5 Feb 2004)

Mags only hold 20 and a pain to load, without breaking the bullet. Why I got hit, First man in. 

usually not going to make it. :-( Unless your fast.


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## Redeye (5 Feb 2004)

Easy way to load the 9mm simunition:

Take the T-handle from the cleaning kit of the C7 and use it to push and hold down the little black nub on the back of the magazine, which in turn pushes the magazine follower down - you can load a lot faster that way.  Even still the last couple of rounds are a pretty tight fit.

How did you as a reservist get issued a TV, Robert KM?  Are you going over shortly?


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan (6 Feb 2004)

The masks work perfeectly if  you talk the vent covers of.  One near the forehead and one over the mouth.  With the vent covers off its easy breathing.


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## kyleg (3 May 2004)

Lol, that would be so weird to walk past. I‘m about to go off on my BMQ, which course do you generally start using simunition on? I guess my real question is how soon till i get to play?


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## D-n-A (3 May 2004)

Pte Gremlin, you wont be doing it on your BMQ or SQ, once your qualifed and can go on ex‘s with your unit, thats when your be able to use it(if your unit goes on a Ex with simmunition)


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## Redeye (3 May 2004)

You probably will not see it on course, Pte Gremlin, but once you get to your unit, if you‘re working OBUA, it‘s likely to appear.  Mostly units in LFCA get to use it because LFCA bought so many sim-kits that they can get them fielded a lot.

If only there was a way to aim them better - holding a C7 at arm‘s length with irons trying to pick a guy off the roof of a building at Pet‘s OBUA site sucked last time I was out (couple weekends ago.)  They still need to issue 9mm barrel brushes for them too.


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## PPCLI Guy (7 May 2004)

Interesting thread.  The Army currently holds 300 sets (with 85 to each of the 3 main Areas, and the remnant in CTC for LFAA), and LFCA purchased an additional 400 sets (something that I will never do again - I know waaay too much about PWGSC etc) for its own use.  The Army is in the process of purchasing an new system that uses 5.56 mm and 7.62mm rds, and the only thing that you have to change from your exisiting weapons (including C9 and C6 - the current system is C7 only) will be the bolt, because it uses a rim-fire system.  Hopefully, LFCA will get the first "company pack" of this new system by July 04, and we will use it at Ex STALWART GUARDIAN, along with our 485 sets that we already have.  This means that for the FIBUA (or OBUA, or UO) stand, each company will be issued its kit the day before they assault the objective, obviating the requirement for kit handover etc..  Moreover, we will be building 2 more portable FIBUA sites (like the one in John Foote Armoury) to facilitate rehearsals.


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## Da_man (7 May 2004)

> Originally posted by D-n-A:
> [qb] Pte Gremlin, you wont be doing it on your BMQ or SQ, once your qualifed and can go on ex‘s with your unit, thats when your be able to use it(if your unit goes on a Ex with simmunition) [/qb]


i dont have my BMQ but i did FATS training


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## D-n-A (7 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Da_man:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


Whats FATS? is it the same as SAT?
you shoot a rifle or mg, etc at a big screen

As far as I know, you cant do that untill your qualified on the C7, like when you pass the PWT1 on BMQ.


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## Da_man (7 May 2004)

> Whats FATS? is it the same as SAT?
> you shoot a rifle or mg, etc at a big screen
> 
> As far as I know, you cant do that untill your qualified on the C7, like when you pass the PWT1 on BMQ.


yes, looks like we can.

I got a shitty 20 cm grouping at 100 meters on the range tho


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## leopard11 (7 May 2004)

what is in a set of simmunition (IE: how many rounds, and does it come with anything else like mags?)


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## The_Falcon (8 May 2004)

The rounds come in box in tray all seperated, with different colours (so you know if you were shot by the enemy or friendlies).  There is an entirely different upper reciever group and bolt carrier (as the simmunition that you can shot each other with is 9mm).  The mag is the same size as a standard 30rd mag, only it is clear plastic, and only takes the 9mm simmuntion rounds. There is also a special helmet and throat protection. As a side note thier are different types of simmuntion round (some you can use on people most you can‘t).  All info can be found at www.simunition.com


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## 1feral1 (8 May 2004)

At the Defence Police Training Centre at Greenhills, Holsworthy, they use this eqpt on their Glock 19s. Wierd, blue slide, and the rifling in the bbl is different too.

They brought one in to us one day, as they could not get the slide off the body. So after some tinkering, it came off, but was so dirty, I was suprised it would fire.

4RAR (Cdo) uses the same thing on the M4, but I have not sen that one. I have been told, the sting from a shot is not someting you‘ll soon forget.

A good trg tool, better than blanks, as you can be ‘stung‘ by this, and thats more of a reason to pay attn to your drills, and stay under/behind cover when you can. Adds to the realism.

Cheers,

Wes


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## The_Falcon (8 May 2004)

Yeah they hurt, they told us to wear gloves, as they have a tendency to break bare skin.  Although on guy got shot on the inside of bicep, and through his shirt it still left a bleeding welt. 

And you are right Wesley, they are intended to let you know what getting shot could feel like, so you learn how not to.


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## Da_man (8 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Hatchet Man:
> [qb] Yeah they hurt, they told us to wear gloves, as they have a tendency to break bare skin.  Although on guy got shot on the inside of bicep, and through his shirt it still left a bleeding welt.
> 
> And you are right Wesley, they are intended to let you know what getting shot could feel like, so you learn how not to. [/qb]


    i prefer lasers


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## Slim (8 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Robert KM:
> [qb]  Why I got hit, First man in.
> 
> usually not going to make it. :-( Unless your fast. [/qb]


Next time toss a t flash or arty-sim in first, you‘ll be amazed at the amount of attention those things get paid when they come bouncing in the door...The bad guys usually forget all about what else may be in the hall...  :blotto:


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## devil39 (8 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Slim:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


Do not throw Ground burst simulators in confined spaces.  And not within 15 m of personnel.

  http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/300-008/B-GL-381/001/TS-000/B-GL-381-001-TS-000.pdf  

Quite clearly stated on pages 1-56 and 1-57.

Slim, whatever your experience, avoid counselling people to carry out training procedures that will hurt other soldiers and/or land them in front their company commander with their hat off.

T Flash would not likely be allowed either given the 5 m safety distance.

Your range safety officer will include this information in his safety brief.  Listen to it.


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## 1feral1 (8 May 2004)

On my CLC back in 1988, the DS lobbed Arty Sims, and T flashes into the Soviet defensive trench system we were occupying, and I dont mean just one or two either. This along with coloured smoke, and a rather determined enemy at a pre dawn attack, made it all confusing, and I still have the scars on my hands from those Arty Sims from them blowing too close.

On the course critique the lack of pyro safety was brought up by many (who had closer calls than I did), and one 031 CPL ended up being charged.

There was even a case of a T-Flash stuffed into a toilet paper roll and chucked into a dark PL sized bunker which had troops inside, and with the cap on too, it landed on a blokes ‘bum cheek‘ and exploded. Lucky no one was hurt.

All this 18 yrs ago!


Regards,

Wes


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## 48Highlander (8 May 2004)

Range safety briefings dealing with simulation explosives are a joke.  Usualy they go like this:

Do not throw smoke or arty-sims inside buildings or vehicles.  Do not throw t-flashes closer than 15 meters to a person.  Do not fire blank ammunition ad a distance closer than 5 meters.  Now watch the demonstration.

Ofcourse, during said demonstration, at least half of the "rules" are broken, while troops giggle and DS staff pretends not to see it.


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## devil39 (8 May 2004)

> Originally posted by 48Highlander:
> [qb] Range safety briefings dealing with simulation explosives are a joke.  Usualy they go like this:
> 
> Do not throw smoke or arty-sims inside buildings or vehicles.  Do not throw t-flashes closer than 15 meters to a person.  Do not fire blank ammunition ad a distance closer than 5 meters.  Now watch the demonstration.
> ...


That should just about cover it for the brief if the target audience is trained soldiers.  

Obviously the RSO should be counting on a modicum of professionalism from his staff and the target audience.


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## The_Falcon (9 May 2004)

Devil39  





> Do not throw Ground burst simulators in confined spaces.  And not within 15 m of personnel.
> 
> Slim, whatever your experience, avoid counselling people to carry out training procedures that will hurt other soldiers and/or land them in front their company commander with their hat off.
> 
> ...


And if it is the CSM and/or RSM conducting the training with the Op‘s O and Trn O present, what then? Sorry sir the pam says.... I don‘t think so.  People have enough common sense that if they can‘t get away from and avoid t-flash and arty sims to just look away from them.


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## devil39 (9 May 2004)

> Originally posted by Hatchet Man:
> [qb] Devil39
> 
> 
> ...


Sure they have enough common sense.  Thats how we avoid injury when an honest accident occurs.  If people wish to advocate unsafe practices they will hurt soldiers. It will only be a matter of time.

That would certainly be the last training they conducted on or near one of my ranges.  Obviously an incorrect demonstration.  The situation should be politely corrected on the spot by the senior man present.  If the senior man present is the problem, then take it through the chain of command higher.

There is no excuse for breaking sound rules and unnecessarily injuring soldiers.  This is a dangerous enough occupation as it is.  No point in compounding it with stupidity.

Again it comes down to professionalism.  Are we all going to be harder/tougher/keener/better soldiers if we deliberately throw T flashes and Arty sims at each other?  In enclosed spaces?  Probably not.


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## willy232 (20 Aug 2004)

Okay, this may have come up before but I didnt see it anywhere.  Just wondering who's done training with Simunition before and what you thought of its training value.
I recently did a couple days FIBUA training with the stuff... I found it a lot more fun than playing with blanks.


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## KevinB (20 Aug 2004)

Yes 
and YES

 I think when the second gen stuff comes on line it will be a much better system (better bal listics and use in C9 etc.  best part - more ouch  ;D        )


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## Zoomie (21 Aug 2004)

Kevin et al,

What sort of realism does simunition provide when it comes to accuracy.  Is it just like shooting at the 100m point, ie - does the "bullet" fly true.

I left the green world before they filtered that training tool down to the Militia.


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## willy232 (21 Aug 2004)

I always thought shooting blanks was sort of a waste of time.  Everyone just goes "Rambo" firing off lots of rounds.  Marksman principles go out the window.  Being sloppy and careless with blanks untimately carrys over when you go live.
Simunition requires aimed shots.  Short controlled bursts.  And you actually get to see the results of how effective (or ineffective) you were.

The only problem I encountered was fogging up in the face shield of the helmet.  But thats essential kit.  I've seen those rounds break skin, and leave some pretty good bruises.


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## Jeff Boomhouwer (21 Aug 2004)

Yes the Darth Vader mask is a little trouble some as is the limited range. It is great for CQB and really cuts down the Rambo factor. However it does nor have the range that Miles does and has not made it to the machine gun yet ( should read covering fire,) Other than that I think it's great as for breaking skin. Well keep your big ass down. Learn your drills properly or the hard way. either way may save your or more importantly my life. HEEE!!


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## KevinB (22 Aug 2004)

I have done it with and w/o the Dark Helmet - it depends upon the range SOP's - I think in Canada it is now standardized for conventional units to use it - but int he US it depends on the range.

 Very shortly (next months or so) the next gen stuff is suposed to start showing up (In Kabul) it is 5.56mm (as opposed to the 9mm kits we have now) requring only a buffer and spring change - linked 5.56mm and 7.62 wil be avialble then and it will have greater range.

 We have used MILES in conjunction with the sim kits and get the "best of both worlds" - albiet with the idiot helmet.  
With the EOTECH's on the C8's it is a much more viable system.


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## Fusaki (22 Aug 2004)

> We have used MILES in conjunction with the sim kits and get the "best of both worlds"



How would the MILES system be inferior to Simunitions? I was always under the impression that MILES is just better, if more expensive.


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## Jeff Boomhouwer (22 Aug 2004)

The problem with MILES has to do with the troops using the kit. There is always someone that takes the battery out of the back thus becoming "bulletproof". The simunition has a projectile that can be painfull. Adds a little more realism.


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## KevinB (24 Aug 2004)

MILES SUCKS ASS AT CLOSE RANGE.

 The laser does not difuse enough so if you dont hit the sensor directly you will not get a hit - I have seen point blank unloads that failed to make a "HIT"
SIMUNTION IS BY FAR A SUPERIOR SYSTEM TO MILES


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## Infanteer (24 Aug 2004)

As well, I've seen cases of MILES signals being distorted by things like clumps of bushes; if you learn in training that a clump of bushes is effective cover, you're going to die.  REMEMBER, COVER FROM VIEW DOES NOT ALWAYS MEAN COVER FROM FIRE.


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## willy232 (24 Aug 2004)

I saw one incident with miles (this was the older stuff) where we had a Section running up to a house, and the guy at the back killed the rest of the Section without firing a shot.  The laser came a bit loose on the barrel and rattled as he was running.  I know its probably now a common thing to happen, but it sure messed things up for that attack.
I know that miles and sumunition used together can be pretty good training.


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## rw4th (24 Aug 2004)

If you're going to be spending a significant amount of time wearing the face mask, you can do 2 things

1- Try some anti-fog spray or liquid (I like rainex, some people swear by dishsoap).
2- I beleive they make aftermarket fans for paintball masks you can attach to ventilate it.

1 and 2 together should help keep the foggin away


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## QORvanweert (16 Oct 2004)

have anybody here been shot by simunition? if so, what does it feel like, what are the symptoms, aside from extreme pain....


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## AmmoTech90 (16 Oct 2004)

Think, old, hard paint ball from close range.  If you get hit where you not protected a good chance of bruising, welts, and possibly broken skin.


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## paracowboy (16 Oct 2004)

you know when the doctor says "You might feel a slight sting", and then proceeds to stab you repeatedly with the speed and frenzied glee of a homocidal sewing machine?

Something like that.


Actually, it depends on where you're it, and how "into the game" you are. Getting hit on the hands or forearms (the most common areas) can really sting and raise welts. Getting hit on a shoulder or a leg doesn't really have much impact, although it can raise a welt and bruise. But, you may be so focussed that you don't realize you're hit. Sometimes, as AmmoTech said, it can break skin. Excellent training aid. It can also vary on the range. If he's far enough away, the impact is minimal. Up close and personal, and you find yourself screeching like a school-girl at an 'N Sync concert. (Or maybe that's just me. I'm kinda delicate.)


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## QORvanweert (16 Oct 2004)

we go winter paint balling, and after about 30 minutes of running around in t-shirts with frozen hoppers and even nastier welts we will call it a day... do you know what the fps for simunition is? thanks.


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## Da_man (16 Oct 2004)

400 FPS


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## GerryCan (27 Oct 2004)

I've been hit with simunition rounds that sometimes don't really hurt at all, and others that just kill and look like someone put out a cigar on my hands. Just this summer my platoon supported Stalwart Guardian and we were allotted some outrageous number of rounds, somthing like 40-50 000. Needless to say we didn't hand any back in, so I can imagine there were guys out there hurting a lot more than I was considering they never really gained a foot hold of Ortona. Good training, well for us anyways and I don't imagine I'll see it again any time soon.


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## Scratch_043 (27 Oct 2004)

well, I recently resurected my Paintball gun from my closet (and I think I fixed it for good this time) and discovered that I REALLY need to get the velocity checked again.

I took a couple test shots in my back yard, and it actually dented the wood on my deck (don't tell me dad)


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## Northern Touch (27 Oct 2004)

I took 3 in the head this year at SG.
Didn't feel a thing.  Probably because of my darthvador mask.  I also got a ricochet onto my hand but it was just splattered paint, no real feeling.  I DID however hear my buddy beside me scream as he took 4 in the ass as the Reg force guys ran by and smoked him.  Poor guy.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Feb 2005)

Does anyone out there have the Official CF Range Safety brief for the use of Simunition? Is there one? If there is and you've got it, I'd appreciate if you could email or PM it to me. Can't find one on the CF site.

Please, nothing made up, or "I think it should be like this". We need the official one.
Tanks.


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## MJP (17 Feb 2005)

Got one at work for the Edmonton range, I'll flip it your way tomorrow.  Drop me a PM with email addy


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## MG34 (18 Feb 2005)

If you are using Simunition you should have Simunition Instructor qualified pers giving the briefing.Apart from that the safety briefing is no different than a normal Range Safety Briefing but with Sim. specific safety instructions included.


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## COBRA-6 (15 Apr 2005)

Got a chance to fire the new 5.56mm SIMUNITION at the CANSEC show, both from the C-7 and C-9. Oh wow, doing OBUA and getting a burst from a C-9 is going to smart... The main advantage logisticaly is that for the C-7 to fire the 5.56 Sim rounds all you have to switch out is the bolt, no new upper reciever, no new buffer, no new magazines. The rep said the range and accuracy would be improved over the 9mm kits, but the booth was far too small to see first hand. I hope the CF purchases the Sim bolts en-mass.


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## KevinB (15 Apr 2005)

Yes - it is coming into the system.

 The LCMM had been holding it up until he was apparently satified that the rounds woudl not overly penetrate (my sources tell me he was penetrated a few times testing...)


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## Britney Spears (15 Apr 2005)

How would you visually identify the weapon as being loaded with simmunitions?


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## COBRA-6 (15 Apr 2005)

good question, maybe wrap blue gun tape around mags?


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## soldiers301 (15 Apr 2005)

No. Normally the barrel is blue painted.


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## Blakey (15 Apr 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> (my sources tell me he was penetrated a few times testing...


Damn! i dont want to be *penetrated*they better sort that shyte out, and quick.

And NO, im not trying to be funny.


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## COBRA-6 (15 Apr 2005)

soldiers301 said:
			
		

> No. Normally the barrel is blue painted.



Read the first post, the new simunition fires out of the regular barrel.


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## Blakey (15 Apr 2005)

Mike_R23A said:
			
		

> Read the first post, the new simunition fires out of the regular barrel.


Whats your point?


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## COBRA-6 (15 Apr 2005)

well it wouldn't be blue then, lol


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## Blakey (15 Apr 2005)

Mike_R23A said:
			
		

> well it wouldn't be blue then, lol


Im not going to "assume" anything, *but* the reason why i posted my first response to this thread is that from Kevin's reply


> my sources tell me he was penetrated a few times testing...


That tells me that they were having some problems with the velocity of the "simunition" round, and thus the penetration power was in excess of what was exceptable. Correct me if i am wrong Kevin.
{edit] And yes, i know the meaning behid painting weapons /munitions blue[/edit]


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## Munner (15 Apr 2005)

You are clearly wrong here. You said the barrel would be painted blue, yet the original post said that they use the regular barrel. C6's and C9's don't have bright blue barrels.


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## PVT DJ (15 Apr 2005)

they would probably put blue tape on them after checking that it is loaded with Sim rounds or just designate those weapon or barrels to the Sim round and paint the barrels blue


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## COBRA-6 (16 Apr 2005)

Maybe the darth vader helmet would be enough of a sign?


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## Britney Spears (16 Apr 2005)

Eh? Why? How would that indicate a simunitions equiped weapon?


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## KevinB (16 Apr 2005)

Guys - when we go sim we take the other bolts etc.

 With the new kits same idea - but all you do is do an accouting of the bolts and put them away.

True there will be no visual signature (other than people kitted in Sim gear)  but if you dont trust them - they really shoudl not be sim'ing or have live weapons either...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (16 Apr 2005)

Kevin, Oh, I can see the hesitation on thier part, .....right now,this very minute, can you say YOU trust everyone in your unit not to be stupid?
I know I used to like seeing that big yellow BFA on the end of the FN.

EDIT: as soon as I hit post I thought of this, would say the range control/ firing NCO actually certify and put some kind of "marker" on the weapon that was clearly visable to everyone?


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## KevinB (16 Apr 2005)

No admittedly I dont (especially with the coke and crack babies - but thats for another thread...)

 But even when we use the normal sims - the section cdr had to account for all the live kit and enusre the troops where gtg.

  IF a troop where to fuck around with live gear, not much you can do - since they coudl always do that at a range anyway...

You have to give them some credit.


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## Britney Spears (16 Apr 2005)

> True there will be no visual signature (other than people kitted in Sim gear)  but if you dont trust them - they really shoudl not be sim'ing or have live weapons either...



This coming from the same guy who thinks the avg soldier is too stupid to be trusted with single action pistols.


(Yes, yes, I know, holster, etc....) ;D


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## KevinB (16 Apr 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> This coming from the same guy who thinks the avg soldier is too stupid to be trusted with single action pistols.
> 
> 
> (Yes, yes, I know, holster, etc....) ;D




Out of context - I think the avg troop does not get enough time on the system to be safe.  The C7/C8 is effectively a single action system and for the most part  :-\ people get it enough to be trusted with life and limb


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## Bomber (18 Apr 2005)

The C9 at CANSEC had a load of blue on it.  It was the SNC demo model, but it is all supposed to come from the same barrel you shoot ball out of.  Thee was a pile of bolts that you could see on display as well.  The Sim bolt is designed to not fire ball so don't worry about it, there is a safety ring inserted in the weapon.  Take note that it now is propelled at 660 feet per second.  I was firing the C9 at the show, and it passed cleanly through the targets that were set-up, the same ones that made the 9mm rounds burst and leave their marks.  The stuff is now also supposed to be tactically accurate to 100ft.

http://www.simunition.com/pdf/fx_556.pdf


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## ImanIdiot (18 Apr 2005)

660 fps? That is going to leave a mark...the current stuff is, what? 400 fps? And _that_ doesn't feel particularly good.


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## Kal (18 Apr 2005)

MasterPrivate said:
			
		

> 660 fps? That is going to leave a mark...the current stuff is, what? 400 fps? And _that_ doesn't feel particularly good.



     Isn't that just more motivation not to get tagged?


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## Da_man (18 Apr 2005)

OpFor guys working in the FIBUA house all weekend long are going to enjoy that one...


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## Steel Badger (18 Apr 2005)

Will they provide a new helmet to make the system viable??


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## BetterThanTheBest (18 Apr 2005)

Any idea when reserve units will start to get this?


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## JBP (18 Apr 2005)

> Posted by: BetterThanTheBest
> Insert Quote
> Any idea when reserve units will start to get this?



Yeah... Lol... Probably in about 2-3 years like everything else that is filtered down to the reserves...

I'm hoping I even get to SEE simunition this summer, nevermind new stuff.


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## Redeye (18 Apr 2005)

R031 Pte Joe said:
			
		

> Yeah... Lol... Probably in about 2-3 years like everything else that is filtered down to the reserves...
> 
> I'm hoping I even get to SEE simunition this summer, nevermind new stuff.



It likely never will "filter down", since there's no real need for it to be held by Reserve units, it can only be used in approved training areas anyhow.  Most likely it will be controlled just like the current conversion kits, issued during exercises.

I don't know if the 5.56mm stuff is better than the current 9mm system, but Simunition exercises lose their cool factor pretty quick.  The helmet is difficult to breathe or operate in (causes me to get migraines because you can't get enough oxygen during physical exertion), and the amount of stoppages and other malfunctions makes it less than a perfect system.  Don't worry if you don't get to see it.

That said, when the rounds start flying down the two-way shooting range with simunition, it's a lot more realistic, and "effective enemy fire" starts to make more sense.


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## 48Highlander (19 Apr 2005)

Redeye said:
			
		

> It likely never will "filter down", since there's no real need for it to be held by Reserve units, it can only be used in approved training areas anyhow.



I think that's about to change.  Recently they've been doing test-runs with simmunition in a Toronto armory to study how safe it is to use the stuff in that sort of environment.  I haven't heard any official findings from the study, but if all goes well I think the regulations will be relaxed.


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## Steel Badger (19 Apr 2005)

Use of simmunition by reserve units "In-Armouries" is already a fact and has been proven very effective as a training tool....

My unit makes use of locally produced modular OBUA sites are already in use...They are set up on the Armouries parade square and can be reconfigured for many scenarios......

While vulnerable (like any training idea / tool ) to over-use / emphasis....it provides reserve units with cost-effective training "in house"....


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## 48Highlander (19 Apr 2005)

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> Use of simmunition by reserve units "In-Armouries" is already a fact and has been proven very effective as a training tool....
> 
> My unit makes use of locally produced modular OBUA sites are already in use...They are set up on the Armouries parade square and can be reconfigured for many scenarios......
> 
> While vulnerable (like any training idea / tool ) to over-use / emphasis....it provides reserve units with cost-effective training "in house"....




Uh...you sure you're not thinking of Airsoft?  I know we've had modular buildings constructed inside of armories for use with Airsoft weapons, but I've never heard of Simmunition being used in such a way, other than the one test run in Fort York.


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## KevinB (19 Apr 2005)

The Range in Edmoton is in a building - as long as you can seal it so no rounds leave the sub structure you should be good to go.

1VP was trying to biuld a sim house in the old TOW Pl area - not sure how that turned out....


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## JBP (20 Apr 2005)

> Posted by: Steel Badger
> Insert Quote
> Use of simmunition by reserve units "In-Armouries" is already a fact and has been proven very effective as a training tool....
> 
> ...




Yep, I've seen this little OBUA site and used it shortly. We had to drag all the pieces and set it all up in the parade square of the "new" armouries.  I'm going through BMQ at your unit at the moment! We didn't use anything though, just the old "bang bang, your dead" game... You've got some very awesome Sgt's at your home base BTW...

Joe
BMQ 0205


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## John Nayduk (27 Jul 2005)

Anybody know if the Army has the barrels to convert  the Brownings so they can fire Simunition?  If so, what's the NSN?


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## Quiet Riot (27 Jul 2005)

I know they have some for the Sig p226, but not sure about the browning. Can't see it being too different from the Sig ones, they might even be the same for both pistols. Can't help with the NSN, but I got this from another thread and it might help if you have access to the DIN: It is called the CGCM-Canadian Government Catalogue of Materials and is on the DIN. 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32922/post-244597/topicseen.html#msg244597


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## someguyincanada (27 Jul 2005)

or here is a more up to date one, you need DIN access thou

http://dgeps.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/DTICS/SITE/CGCS_Search_e.asp


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## John Nayduk (27 Jul 2005)

Thanks guys.


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## NavyShooter (31 Jul 2005)

I'm not sure if there's a browning barrel for the simunition system, however, the Sig barrel will NOT fit the Browning.

Ok, just checked the simunition website, here's the link for the kits:

http://www.simunition.com/index.php?section_id=91

From their site:  

Here's the pic of the Browning kit:







Here's the Sig 225 Kit:






Observe the differences.

The Sig 225 kit comes with extra bits that are needed (one appears to be a mag follower)

As for whether or not the Army has them, well, I am not sure.

NavyShooter


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## John Nayduk (1 Aug 2005)

I have talked to the Ontario distributor for Simunition.  The barrels are $214.00 but they will only sell to the military, not to an individual.


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## KevinB (1 Aug 2005)

Units can local purchase them from Simmunition or R.Nicholls or any other Sim distributor.

Officially the CF does not have BHP sim barrels

CF does have Sig P226 w/ sim kits - I have no idea if they have P225 kits -


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## Evocatus (5 Aug 2005)

Units cannot purchase a weapon, nor ammunition [incl Simunition]; without express auth from NDHQ//DAT/DAPM// in teh case of the latter.  :'(

 :warstory: The new 5.56MM C7, C9 and 9MM Simunitions conversion bolts [C& & C9]  and barrels [9MM], respectively, are due to ea LFC Area this Fall.  I'm expecting approx 60,ooo 5.56MM Sim rds ea [blue & red] this Sep.    
 :bullet:
cheers... :bullet:.Evocatus. :bullet:


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## BDTyre (21 Feb 2011)

So I just had my first ex using simunition. We used what I was told was the new style, where only the bolt (for C7 and I think C9) or barrel (Browning) are replaced. I think its great as a training aid (even though our OPFOR used regular paintball guns). However, we noticed some serious problems with the ammunition. It seemed to happen at random and seemingly has nothing to do with cleaning the weapon or prep for fire. The plastic, paint filled tips have a tendency to become lodged at random points in the barrel. This can cause stoppages and double feeds. My rifle fired fine for most of the ex until our very last serial, at which point I experienced two catastrophic stoppages that required the C7 to be broken down. 

The problem seems to compound itself depending on where the squibs get lodged in the barrel. Often, if the stoppage presents as bolt fully forward, you can go through a tap-rack-and-go and get through one or two rounds before the same stoppage. At the same time, the rounds don't actually leave the weapon, they just lodged behind the existing squib. While playing dead, I was handed and N/S rifle and manage to pull out a live (primer unstruck) round from the chamber, plus a squib that was jammed next to it. After clearing that, I removed four squibs from the barrel but there were more in there. On my own rifle, I removed four.

Has anyone else had this issue? What's a good way to prevent it? If it happens, is there a proper way to remove the squibs? I was told informally that weapons techs are supposed to do this.


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## Stoker (21 Feb 2011)

This happens a lot with this system, you are using a round headed bullet with a low velocity cartridge. Sometimes they don't feed well. Apparently the rifles with the entire upper purpose built is a lot better.


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