# vimy ridge



## bono (3 Dec 2003)

anybody know much about it?


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## Danjanou (5 Dec 2003)

Yeah what would you like to know?

Something about the battle itself? 

A specific unit involved?

Post a more specific question and/or PM me and I‘ll see what I can do. You might also want to do a search here for previous posts. Example the book Vimy has been reviewed.


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## Gunnar (5 Dec 2003)

Is that you John?


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## JSA (5 Dec 2003)

P. Burton wrote an excellant book on this battle titled ‘Vimy‘(I may not agree with all of his politics but he is a good writer, and he left his wierd idea‘s out of this book as with most of his better ones).  There are not many other books on this that you will be able to escape from the ‘Canada of the 60‘s‘ mentallity but Burtons is good.  Outside of that, it was not a big battle from WW1 point of view (being only a couple of days and only a Corps involved).  Anything less than several armies seemed to get lost in the millions of men mobilized for that conflict.  js


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## Jungle (5 Dec 2003)

Just to clear things up: his name is Pierre *Berton*


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## Danjanou (5 Dec 2003)

Thanks Jungle

I thought about giving a brief overview of the battle here, but I‘ve done it once on this site and basically I‘m feeling lazy tonight.

Here‘s my review of Berton‘s book. It‘s probably a good place to start a discussion of the battle.  Any specific questions post em and I‘ll try and answer them.

 http://army.ca/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/14/23? 

BTW JSA First, you care to clarify what you mean about wild ideas there. 

Secondly you‘re technically correct in it not being "big" basically one Corps, one day, actually about half a day in length (aside from one small objective taken the next morning) and really part of a larger battle. The Brits officially refer it is as Arras. 

However I wouldn‘t dismiss it altogether. Aside from the political/propoganda effect it was important for other reasons. A lot of "modern" techniques of combat, battle drills, fire and movement, counter battery fire, etc were developed for and first used there.


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## JSA (6 Dec 2003)

No intention to start an argument.  Just stating that in the realm of WW1 history this was a small battle (many small battles have been played up for propaganda purposes by both sides in every conflict).  The Canadian corps was quite ‘cutting edge‘ for their time, probably due to the fact of being sprinked with British professions to stiffen up the bright creative amatuers.  I remember reading somewhere that Gen Currie (the corps commander who is pretty well forgotten in Canada) was to be considered as a replacement for Haig if the war had continuned longer.  As to PB‘s politic‘s, just read his books and form your own opinions.  Mine are probably quite radical by others standards but hey, we still live in a free country.  js


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## Michael Dorosh (6 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by JSA:
> [qb] No intention to start an argument.  Just stating that in the realm of WW1 history this was a small battle (many small battles have been played up for propaganda purposes by both sides in every conflict).  The Canadian corps was quite ‘cutting edge‘ for their time, probably due to the fact of being sprinked with British professions to stiffen up the bright creative amatuers.  I remember reading somewhere that Gen Currie (the corps commander who is pretty well forgotten in Canada) was to be considered as a replacement for Haig if the war had continuned longer.  As to PB‘s politic‘s, just read his books and form your own opinions.  Mine are probably quite radical by others standards but hey, we still live in a free country.  js [/qb]


I don‘t know what you mean by the Canadian Corps being sprinkled by "British Professionals".  Certainly Byng was one of them.  But about half the CEF‘s  initial contingent was made up of British-born men who had emigrated to Canada.  The appointment of officers - including division and brigade commanders - was pretty much a Canadian show AFAIK (I am sure Sam Hughes saw to that, look at the appoitnment of Garnet Hughes to command 5 Div, and did he also not have a controversial appointment in 1 Div?)  But again, what constitutes "British" at that time?  Half the CEF could be described as British if you included place of birth among the requirements for that description.  If you are referring solely to British Army Regulars, I‘d have to suggest the CEF had very few of those.  A look at the battalion, brigade and Division commanders would provide some interesting insights.

The "cutting edge" of the Canadian Corps had very little to do with British professionals, and very much more to do with those talented amateurs you describe.

Unless you were thinking of something specific?  But calling Andy McNaughton an amateur, for example, seems weak at best given his scientific background and the results he was able to achieve at Vimy with his sound ranging, flash spotting, etc.


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## Bill Smy (11 Dec 2003)

First: Pierre Berton is alive and kicking and working on another book.

I recall reading that over 60% of the Canadian Expeditionary Force had been born in the UK.

The geatest concentration of Brits in the CEF were in the first two contingents. One writer has suggested that they anticipated a short war, and this would be an inexpensive way to get a paid trip to the UK.

There was a sprinkling of professional British officers in the CEF. The first Corps Commander was a Brit.

I suspect that by the end of the war the bulk of the British Army were territorials or right off the street.

I have also read that one reason for the success of the Canadian Corps was the excellent British administrative and logistical support.


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## onecat (11 Dec 2003)

If you a want better book on WW1 and the Canadian experience try reading "the rites of Spring".  I don‘t have the book on hand so I can‘t the authors names, but is a prof at the U of T.  Its a very good book, goes into the ideas of day, how this affected Canada.  Vimy was actually a very big battle, it was the first any allied army had taken that ground from germans and they did it in one day.  From that point one the Canadian Corp never lost a battle; it was the spread head used in the last 100 days of war.

As for the CEF being part British... that true is true of first CEF at arrived in 1914/15.  But as teh war dragged on, more and more of its members were made up of Canadians.  Canada until very recently was very english/Scotish/Irish/Welish in its background, it was only after the second world war that changed.


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## Ian McF (31 Dec 2003)

I‘ve been to Vimy Ridge several times. It‘s a beautiful location with a superb memorial and information centre. It is very easy to gain a feel for the conditions the troops fought in as there are sections of very well preserved trenches and craters etc. The ground itself is of significant strategic value, particularly to the allies as the ridge dominates the douai valley.

The site is a commonwealth war grave, but gives principal recognition to the Canadian sacrifice and achievement.

For Bill Smy. The British Army was Territorial from a very early stage of WW1 and was "off the street" before "half time". At the start of WW1 the British Army stood at circa 247,000 plus reservists; these were dispersed throughout the Empire, with approx 30% in India. By Nov 1918 the British Army had increased to 3,459,000 PLUS Colonial Troops and, by my reckoning needs to also include the thousands killed and injured during the 4 years plus of war fought. There is little chance of ever really appreciating the scale without visiting the battle fields and seeing the graves and memorials.


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## Spr.Earl (31 Dec 2003)

Welcome Col.,how‘s thing‘s in the land‘s of the Geordies and Monkey Hanger‘s?

 I read the book year‘s ago,what I liked about it was it had a lot of personel account‘s in it and kept the Political side of the Battle to a minimum.


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## Ian McF (31 Dec 2003)

PS.
I have quite a number of digital photos of Vimy Ridge; Newfoundland (another Canadian Battlefield) and others from the Somme if anyone is interested. Let me know and I can mail them


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## Ian McF (31 Dec 2003)

For Spr Earl. Geordies and Monkey Hangers! You have done some homework; well done and very accurate. I‘m neither, considering myself a Yorkshireman and above all that!!

We‘re rapidly approaching the end of 2003 and are experiencing some extreme (for England) Temperatures -11C last night with +1C at midday - nothing by CA standards I know (still Tee Shirt weather for you).

The personal accounts are what make the history. It‘s useful to understand the politics, but I try and leave the detail of that to the politicians


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## Spr.Earl (31 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by Ian McF:
> [qb] For Spr Earl. Geordies and Monkey Hangers! You have done some homework; well done and very accurate. I‘m neither, considering myself a Yorkshireman and above all that!!
> 
> We‘re rapidly approaching the end of 2003 and are experiencing some extreme (for England) Temperatures -11C last night with +1C at midday - nothing by CA standards I know (still Tee Shirt weather for you).
> ...


Sir I‘m a Scouser transplanted    
You‘re all wooly back‘s to me    

Here in Vancouver right now it‘s snowing and cold.  

As for your digital photo‘s we have a link for former battle site‘s in the photo section you can down load them to if you wish.
It‘s a new topic that Mike started and we are hoping for more photo‘s of Former Battle Site‘s.

If you have any trouble down loading them just contact Mike Bobbit and he will be more than willing to help you posting them.

Again welcom and a Happy New Year as you have less than 2hrs. to go for 04.

It‘s 14:05 here right now.


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## Ian McF (1 Jan 2004)

I did notice the photo section, and had a quick look at putting some images in to it. The ones I have stored are all circa 1.5Mb, so need reducing in size before posting.
Looks like a job for later on.
I‘ve got quite a lot from various areas so if there are others of interest let me know.
Happy New Year to all


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## Spr.Earl (1 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by Ian McF:
> [qb] I did notice the photo section, and had a quick look at putting some images in to it. The ones I have stored are all circa 1.5Mb, so need reducing in size before posting.
> Looks like a job for later on.
> I‘ve got quite a lot from various areas so if there are others of interest let me know.
> Happy New Year to all [/qb]


Not being well versed in the new age,I imagine you can reduce the size.

If there is a subject that‘s needed contact Mike and he will make it for your photo‘s.

As you have seen we are trying to make a over all site for all Arm‘s even other Nation‘s as quite a few here have not been over seas or are thinking about joining one of our discipline‘s and every little bit help‘s even guiding them what to is expected of them etc.

What would be nice is some of your thought‘s what is expected of Pvt.‘s Rifleman, LCpl.‘s,Cpl.‘s in the Infantry in the U.K. when the need arise‘s.

Every thing help‘s Ian if I may call you Ian.

Oh by the way great museum in the Tower!


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## Ian McF (1 Jan 2004)

I‘ve done the "Darkroom" bit with some of the photos and uploaded them to "Former Battle sites". Descriptions etc completed for them which I hope are self explanatory. I have others (lots) but interesting ones are probably printed from 35mm and will need scanning; a project for another day.

Thoughts on Junior Ranks - we can go into detail separately. They are (in my opinion) the most important people on whom success or otherwise lies.

Ian is fine; my friends call me "McF"


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## Spr.Earl (3 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by Ian McF:
> [qb] I‘ve done the "Darkroom" bit with some of the photos and uploaded them to "Former Battle sites". Descriptions etc completed for them which I hope are self explanatory. I have others (lots) but interesting ones are probably printed from 35mm and will need scanning; a project for another day.
> 
> Thoughts on Junior Ranks - we can go into detail separately. They are (in my opinion) the most important people on whom success or otherwise lies.
> ...


For give my forwardness on my last post (in the cup‘s)New  Year‘s.
Thank‘s for your photo‘s McF,Sir.
It‘s the first time I‘ve seen photo‘s of the Monument to Royal Nfl. Regiment.


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## a23trucker (3 Jan 2004)

I must admit that I was quite disappointed with the Vimy battlefield. The site is now obsured by the trees planted to remember those who paid the ultimate price, I would have prefered that the site be maintained in it‘s wartime vista. Having said that, the weight of the history of the site is still  extremely moving.

The Gettysburg battlefield is an excellent example of a battlefield that has been maintained in it‘s battlefield conditions. When you stand on a given spot you can see relativly the same view as the person standing there during the war.


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## axeman (3 Jan 2004)

Well let me have my 2 bits of input. I‘ve been to the Vimy Ridge  site,one of my teachers was also but he did the advance. As a soldier even with the trees  it was still a memorable thing . When I was in Belgium I met a "deminer" he deals with the artifacts from WW1 WW2 that turn up at peaple houses,in peaples gardens etc.He estimates it would take 100 + years to clear the Vimy Ridge area. The differnce between Vimy and Gettysburg is/ was the armerment used. all the UXO‘s and stale gasses that are in the area are hard to conceive . Mustard gas from WW1 is still able to mess someone up. So are the Thousands of arty shells , littering the area . Remember walking though the mine/ trenchlines the arty round just left there? Think it was left there for any specific reason ? After being through many battle site from WW1 ,WW2 ,Bosnia ,Afghanistan . let the scene rest as it is i think all the work should go into the statue .Lest We Forget.


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## logau (3 Jan 2004)

Seek and ye shall find!

I was at Gettysburg a while back and thought I would create a virtual Gettysburg for VIMY Ridge.

Here‘s how. Refer to these two files

MAXIMIZE THE IMAGES WHEN THEY OPEN UP

   http://www.donlowconcrete.com/44/Vimy1.GIF   
   http://www.donlowconcrete.com/44/Vimy2.GIF   

Cdn WW1 After action reports are on line at the National Archives Website under war diaries.

The 2 slides above refer to a trench raid - attack by Cdn 11th Inf Bde on the early morning of 1 Mar 1917. Cdns tried to get on top of Vimy Ridge - disrupt Germans and then head back for hot breaky. Unfortunately the plan failed - use gas and shoot it up hill on a cold day - Germans saw everything coming. Mass Cas. 2 x Dead Bn Comds and several hundred Cdn lads.

What I do to generate this - 
1. Look up the daily loc state fm 4th Cdn Div
2. Plot them on an extract of a real WW1 Tac map from the Imperial War Musuem Trench Maps CD
3. Eyeball the posn on a BYO Maps CD from France which gives me a Cdn Tire Std GPS Grid Ref for lat and Long 
4. Put the lat and long of kn own points into an applet here    http://williams.best.vwh.net/gccalc.htm   
5. This generates a very good approx point to point distance which I can check with the Imperial War Museum CD. It also generates an angular bearing that you and your trooper pals can walk the real battlefield.
6. I currently have about 200 loc reps written down for the 11th Cdn Inf Bde and the aim is map the entiure Bde movements in Belgium (they also have a CD product that gets you an amazing level of detail with the WGS 84 lat and long and of course France.
7. You‘ll agree this tends to dwarf anythign you may have seen at Gettysburg - from where the idea hit me.
8. If you want to help we have a few CDs for sale at    http://apollon_2.tripod.com    - the 54th Bn website
9. Note - many units took pics of the temp burila sites after the battles with the grid refs marked on them. I hope to capture these too - as they get your real close to where the action occurred vs the mdoern day Commonwelath War graves Cemeteries.
10. We map for $$$.
11. We will get the 54th and 102nd Bns CEF done by next fall. 




> Originally posted by a23trucker:
> [QB] I must admit that I was quite disappointed with the Vimy battlefield. The site is now obsured by the trees planted to remember those who paid the ultimate price, I would have prefered that the site be maintained in it‘s wartime vista. Having said that, the weight of the history of the site is still  extremely moving.


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## a23trucker (6 Jan 2004)

Please don‘t get me wrong, as I stated the site has a great effect on anyone who truly knows the history. Good point on why the ground can not be cleared. The tour guide told us that they loose about a half dozen sheep each year. When we toured thru the tunnels there is even still a live (appearently) round protruding into the tunnel. not to mention the ones close by they don‘t know about.....

My reason for disappointment was that I was looking for something beyond the visualization of the battlefield, (I‘m really good at that kind of thing) There is no replacement for the real views to reinforce and confirm that your visualization was correct.
Logau, good job with the maps, I wish more people (Soldiers) paid as much interest to their history. Prior to going on the visit a fellow officer and myself had to make a presentation to our Bn on each of the divisions and each of the bde‘s battle plans as well as the background info on the service support. I know the work that goes into your effort.
If you are from the log unit that I think that you are from, ask around, some of the people in your unit were there with me. The trip to Vimy was part of an exchange visit with a Brit GS Tn Regt  I was the OPI for the EX.
I noticed that I wasn‘t the only person who who has had this problem. I resently saw a painting showing soldier attacking up the wrong side of the ridge.
I would still recommend this as a place where every Canadian soldier should visit some time in their lives.
Cheers
AM


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## jimbunting (15 Jan 2004)

Gentelmen:

My father was a member of 4th CMGC at Vimy, so my info comes from someone who WAS THERE. He died in 1981, but put his  CEF experiences on paper over a ten year period. It is un-published, at this time.

He said this about Vimy..........We trained for MONTHS, for this attack, so that every man, right down to section level, knew his part of the plan. Maps which were previously only given to Officers, were distributed down to platoon Sgts. Complete attack training areas were built, far back, behind the trench lines. Entire brigades were pulled back to train togeather, for a week at a time, over similar ground, with marked trenchlines and "report points" that had to be attained.

As a Vickers gunner, my Dad fired many nightly indirect fire plans, that were designed to slow or stop the German‘s attempts to bring up supplies, before the attack took place. A usual night‘s fire plan would use at least 25,000 rounds per gun, in a 10 gun battery, firing as if the 303‘s where artillery tubes. The fire plan put "cones of fire" on German approach trenches, road junctions and railroad lines. This was the Canadians innovative use of massed machine gun fire, which was eventually copied by other nations.

On the day, which was Easter Monday, 1917, the entire Canadian Corps attacked the Vimy ridge . My Dad was  a machine gun crew leader, a group of 12 men who moved forward as one, carrying their gun, tripod, and water for cooling, and above all ammunition. Belted 303 ammo in 250 round belts, a total of 50,000 rounds, along with their personal gear and rifles, and a number of flags to mark their advance.

The Canadians moved off and due to the tremendous counter battery fire of the artillery, which put 70 percent of the German guns out of action in the first 30 minutes of the attack. This was due to the work of a young Canadian officer, a graduate of McGill, named Andy McNaughton, who applied his knowledge of sound ranging and electrial engineeering to the task of finding and then German batteries. He did this by carefull and precise targetting, in the weeks before the attack.

The Canadians moved up the slope, finding that the German counterfire was slight, and the first trenchlines were soon occupied. The top of Vimy ridge was occupied by noon that day, and the last hold-outs, on The Pimple, were defeated by the next day"s dawn. Unfortunately, the British General staff had been comvinced that, just like the French and the British troops before them, the Canadians would fail. Therefore, there was no plan to re-inforce success.

My Dad with his pals, stood on the top of Vimy ridge and watched the Germans streaming away to the East, over open ground. He said" That was the time when we could have WON the war, if only we had had Cavalry, to chase them, and to break out the flanks, in each direction". " No trench lines, no defensive positions to stop us, and the Germans were fleeing in total disorder."

Dad survived his service, from enlistment in October 1915, in Toronto, to his discharge, in Belgium, in June 1920. He had volunteered to be a POW camp guard, so married men could go back to Canada. He was paid an extra amount for this ,daily. He finally returned to Canada in August 1920. He had no hearing in his left year, thanks to about 4 million rounds of 303 fired, and after a further 60 years, he still had slivers of steel coming out of his neck, back, hands, and legs, but he maintained that he had " A good war".

He was John Carl Bunting, number 201018, Battery "G", 4th Canadian Machine Gun Corps, CEF, 1897 to 1981. 

Jim Bunting. Toronto.


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## logau (15 Jan 2004)

What a great story!

You know how to get his war diary? Use this link  http://www.archives.ca/02/02015202_e.html  - type in 4th Canadian Machine Gun and 2 entries pop up. This will lead you to map refs and locations they were in.



> Originally posted by jimbunting:
> [QB] Gentelmen:
> 
> My father was a member of 4th CMGC at Vimy,..........


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## rcasc (15 Jan 2004)

Jim

Thanks for that great post. Vimy Ridge has a personal meaning for me. My grandfather lost his leg at Vimy Ridge and his brother and cousin were killed. Now, my daughter‘s cadet band may play at Vimy Ridge next Rememberance Day.


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## Michael Dorosh (15 Jan 2004)

There is an interesting photo of the Vimy Memorial, and preserved trenches, being visited by a German veteran during World War Two after France fell.

The photo was in After The Battle magazine, in the issue about the repatriation of our Unknown Soldier.

The German veteran had been a Gefreiter (usually translated as corporal, but really indicating a private soldier with a pay incentive) in a Bavarian infantry regiment, was decorated twice for bravery (Iron Cross Second Class and Iron Cross First Class), and gassed towards the end of the war.

His name, of course, was Adolf Hitler.  I doubt that he was paying homage to the Canadians so much as showing his staff what the trenches were like, seeing as the Canadian ones in that sector were so well preserved for the park.


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## jimbunting (22 Jan 2004)

All;

My Dad enlsited in October 1915, in Toronto, at age 16 ( obviously he lied about his age to get in ) He joined the 92nd battalion, and went to Valcartier camp, where he was nearly killed in a bayonet training accident. One of the other guys tripped as he was runnung towards the straw-filled dummy, and put his bayonet right thru my Dad‘s right thigh, narrowly missing the femoral artery. Four weeks in hospital, so his unit went overseas without him.

Spent three weeks on a Colt Machine Gun course, and  a further three weeks on the Lewis Gun course. Was attached to the Eaton Motor Machine Gun unit, which was raised by that Eaton family, with armoured Rools Royce cars with hand cranked armoured turrets plonked on top of them.

On the troop ship going across the Atlantic, they were told that the ship would be diverted to Northern Ireland, as a armed rebellion was taking place. The whole shipload of Canadians were laned and dispursed ro various laocations in the city. Dad and four of his mates were sent up a clock tower, with four Lewis Guns, and 5,000 rounds of ammo, and four days worth of food, and told to shoot anyone with a gun , who was not in British uniform. Dad allways called this his " emergency " visit to the "Old Sod".

After 10 days the ship continued to England, and Dad went to Aldershot, where he was transfered to the CMGC. Trained on the Vickers gun. Sent to France to the 4th battalion, and started the process of learning not to get killed. This was in the begining of May, 1916.

Jim Bunting. Toronto.


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