# CAR reborn?



## Roko

I‘ve heard a rumor that there has been a sugestion by some liberal in the parliment that the CAR should be brought back.. anyone else heard this, or is it completley unfounded?


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## RCA

The CF and in particular the Land Force are shrinking and even if we move back to 50000, units are bing rationlized (meaning pioneers going to engineers, mortors to the artillery etc). This is not a trend but a fact.

So answer the question yourself. There isn‘t the manpower to form any new units, period.


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## Se7eN

I havent heard much except it was brought up by the opposition and the response was no. I hope its true though.


- JH


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## Roko

yeah, I agree that in the current state of the CF, it‘s not likely to happen.. I was just wondering if it had been brought up..


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## Yard Ape

Remember that this particular regiment would only consist of one battalion.

   Yard Ape


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## fortuncookie5084

Though static line military parachuting is near and dear to my heart, the armchair strategist in me still thinks an air assault thing would be most useful operationally.  Complete lack of this type of doctrine in the CF coupled with no suitable helicopters in our arsenal aside, I think it is a good idea.  The Brits have adopted it with much success.


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## the patriot

This is very odd indeed.  They want to increase the numbers to replace troops that are retiring, yet they‘re cutting down on existing manpower.  I would like the morons making these decisions to wake up and stop tinkering with the way things are run.  Increase the numbers by recruiting and retaining troops instead of contemplating shutting down three infantry battalions due to the lack of manpower.

-the patriot-


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## Soldier of Fortune

I think what we all need to remember here is that Canada is not a big war machine, were a peace keeping nation. We don‘t need a million soldiers and state of the art equipment, we need a few excellently trained soldiers, that can get the job done with the stuff they have. Although I think it would be nice to have airborn capability I dont think we need a big airborn regiment.


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## McG

SoF, the best Peacekeepers are good war fighters.  Yes, Canada is not a war machine.  However, smiles and good intentions alone cannot maintain peace when there are people determined to break it for thier own agendas (I suspect some in our government have even fooled themselves into beliving this is not true).  It is not good enough for a force to be able defend itself until the Hercs can come to take everybody home for tea and medals.  When local beligrents decide to push the peacekeepers around or resume activities against eachother, the peacekeeping force must be strong enough to impose the order it was sent to maintain.

This is not to say that there are not means of achieving objectives that are unique to peacekeeping.  But sacrificing warfighting ability to persue those "smiles and good intentions" ways is a bad idea.


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## Soldier of Fortune

I see...good point.


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## Meditations in Green

Our political landscape over the past thirty years or so and the fact that Canada has a small tax base has much more to do with our having a small and often obsolescent military than our national character.

Elite units have a larger role above and beyond the tactical. They are a visible example of the warrior spirit of a nation. Their reputation is one that stands head and shoulders above all others - they are the BEST.  A degree of visibility (units like JTF2, Delta, SAS need to remain in the shadows for operational reasons obviously) serves another purpose. People often dream about being amongst the elite. Units like the US Army Rangers, the British Royal Marine Commandos, The British Paras, the French Foreign Legion‘s 2ieme Regiment Etranger Parachutiste (and arguable the entire legion itself) and many others all have a certain degree of visibility. A benefit is that there is a "trickle down effect".  In most nations that rely on volunteers, you do not start out in elite units, you work your way up by working HARD.   I remember when I was in Cadets meeting a good number of people who were very serioius about wanting to be Airborne... When the regiment disbanded they saw their dream go down the toilet. Naturally a lot of them started looking elsewhere, mostly in the civilian world. 

Special units have had a place of pride throughout history. Due to our current political climate, ressurecting the CAR in name might not be feasiable, however the underlying spirit would be the same. I think it‘s time to open a new chapter in the history of the Canadian Armed Forces, one that is in accordance with our traditions.

Food for thought (maybe this should be it‘s own thread really?) ... Has the warrior spirit of Canada diminished so much that a visible elite unit might not be able to be reformed/created? Is it the lack of political will? The people? Money? Frankly, I‘m at a loss for any good reason...


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## Brock

The Canadian Airborne Regiment was an excellent unit that had its dirty underware displayed a bad time.  The CAR as orgininally envisioned was an excellent unit, no substitute for a "true" special forces unit, but a necessary unit for the Canadian Army.  The CAR was orginally designed to be similar to the US Army Rangers and not the UK SAS, UK "Paras", or US "Green Berets."  To know more about the formation of CAR, read Significant Incident by David Bercuson a very well respected Canadian military historian and analyst.  Orginally, the CAR was to be a commando unit, indeed the orginal name was to be the Canadian Commando Regiment.  It was to be used for direct action missions of platoon, company, and battalion sized.  The last being the least important.  It was not to have an artillery battery, or a combat service support company, but simply to have two Commandos (large rifle company‘s treated as units and not sub-units), a Combat Support Commando, and a Headquarters Commando and Regiment Headquarters.  This is actually almost identical to the current structure of the Royal Australian Army‘s 4th Battalion Royal Australian Regiment (Commando).  The Australian‘s also have a reserve commando regiment and regual army special forces regiment {ASR (Australian)}.  I think the Canadian Army should again create a CAR/Commando/Ranger like unit of battalion size, but ensure that it is battalion sized without all the supporting elements that old CAR had before it was downsized.  Essentially I would argue that the new para-commando regiment have 3 Commando/rifle companies each with 3 rifle platoons, and a company combat support platoon and company headquarters.  The battalion should have a combat support company with a pioneer, anti-tank, mortar, and reconnaissance platoons, and company headquarters.  Finally the headquarters company battalion headquarters would support the unit, the same as any other infantry battalion.  I would suggest that the JTF II be retained and expanded; possibly renamed the Canadian Special Air Service.  Commando skills and special forces skills are different, and their roles and missions are quite different.  The commando is a highly trained light infantry shock troop, whereas the special forces is designed primarily for Intelligence, Surveillance, Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance missions (ISTAR).  Also the SF soldier tends to be dual hatted for counter terrrorist roles.  The additon of a commando unit would go a long way to improving moral in the infantry, which is the heart and soul of the army.  This is not a corps knock, just a statement of the importance in terms of numbers and not capabilities.  Having a unit to strive for is important, but the capabilities of a commando unit would go along way to making the current combat incapable army combat capable.  The latter comment is not a knock to the personal commitment and capabilities of Canadian soldiers, just the recognition of the lack of overall capability in the Army.


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## portcullisguy

Wouldn‘t that be duplicity though?  We already have the Joint Task Force 2, who fulfil the counter-terrorist function, as well as the ISTAR role, don‘t we?

I think what we could probably find more useful is a Pathfinder-type regiment, as the UK has, which could act in larger-unit support of JTF operations.

Believe this is the relationship the U.S. Army Rangers have to their Delta Force.


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## enfield

um, no, that is not  the relationship.
Pathfinders are the eyes and ears of an airborne formation, they go in first, mark landing zones, do recce‘s, all sorts of special-forces-like stuff, but mostly in the recce role. 

Rangers are direct action and break things, as well as providing muscle for special operations. They have their own recce elements
Delta does all sorts of dark and mysterious things. but are not normally considered the Ranger‘s recce force.   

We need an elite infantry unit of some kind, that much is obvious.


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## Brock

To Portcullisguy:

I think you misunderstood my arguement.  Their is is a major difference between special forces--SAS--and commando troops, US Army Rangers.  I was advocating to expand in numbers and rename the JTF 2 as the Canadian Special Air Service, not create a second special forces unit.  Secondly, I also argued that Canada should have a commando regiment along the lines of the US Army Ranger battalions in addtion to a dedicated special forces regiment.  One new "commando" battalion and rename the JTF 2 the CSAS.  I hope that clears it up for you.


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## fortuncookie5084

Ahhhhhhh....we can dream.  There Airborne went away and came back once before.


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## Meditations in Green

Something of a side note... In addition to the creation of a new commando type unit to add to our special operations capability, I think we should create or revamp an existing unit for a role similar to the USAF‘s 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment (Airborne), the "Night Stalkers". I think this would be a great compliment to any new commando unit(s) and JTF2.


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## corporal

Ah to dream...discussion is great but what can we do to get the politicians to listen?
i am all for placing my name or whatever to help the cause to effect change, its time to do something.


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## typhoon85

Do you guys think the Airborne Regiment will ever be brought back?


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## gk404

I doubt it, I think with our limited resources, it would make more sense to have a more multi-purpose unit like the US ARMY Rangers.  Don‘t get me wrong, I‘d like to see it happen, but I just don‘t think it‘s going to...


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## Gunner

Gents, do a search of the war diary.  This topic has been discussed ad nauseum.

A better question is "Why should we bring it back?  What purpose would it serve and would a strategic resource, such as an Airborne Regiment, be supportable utilizing current equipment and resources?"  What would it provide that is not resident in the three light infantry battalions located in each  infantry regiment?


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## Michael Dorosh

And where would we get the aircraft to deploy them...

Is there any precedent for re-activating Regiments?  Even if a battalion sized parachute unit were re-activated, is there any precedent for giving them the name of a previously disbanded unit - ie "The Canadian Airborne Regiment"?  There have been dozens of regiments disbanded and amalgamated and I am unaware of any of them ever being brought back to life, as it were.   Anyone remember The Yorkton Regiment, The King‘s Own Rifles, The Edmonton Fusiliers, The Winnipeg Light Infantry, The Eastern Township Mounted Rifles, The Battleford Light Infantry, The Annapolis Regiment, The Canadian Guards, or The Weyburn Regiment?

I would suspect that any revival of a parachute battalion for the Regular Force would of necessity be named something else.

Are there any cases in the last century of a previously de-activated, disbanded or otherwise done-away-with regiment making its way back into the order of battle?


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## DnA

the US Army has a history of activating, then deactivating, then reactivating units

for example the Army rangers were activated, deactivated an re activated for WW2, Korea an Vietnam, then after the Vietnam war, shortly after they became a permanent unit

an recently
 the 173rd Airborne Brigade was deactivated shortly after the Vietnam war, then in 2000, they were reactivated


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## muskrat89

Michael - You‘re more of a historian than me, so you might know; for sure my dad, also a Gunner (who lurks here) will give me a growl for not remembering. I think, in Italy, didn‘t 1 RCA or another Gunner regiment, become Lanark & Renfrew (or some infantry unit) for awhile? Were they rebadged, amalgamated, or what? I‘m sure Gunner, or RCA will know.


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## Michael Dorosh

In 1944, it was realized that the balance of infantry and armour was off in the 5th Canadian Armoured Division.  Another infantry brigade (12 CIB) was created in theatre.  The Motor Battalion of the division was redesignated as standard infantry IIRC (this was the Westies), the Princess Louise Dragoon Guards, the recce regiment of 1 CID, was converted to infantry, and yes, the 1st Light Ack Ack was converted to infantry.  I met their RSM at the Italian Campaign veteran‘s reunion in Yorkton three summers ago.  They fought as infantry, and rebadged as Lanark and Renfrew after some debate.  In the spring of 45 they moved to NW Europe, and converted back to a LAA regiment.

Bear in mind the Lanark and Renfrew militia unit was in existence in Canada throughout this period, and did support the redesignation of 1 LAA.


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## Spr.Earl

Yes it should be brought back.
Why? 
So the avarage Infanteer has something to work for.

 For the Infanteer in Canada the Ultimate was to be a memeber of the Air Borne.

Prior the shame the Air Borne was a good brigade and had good troop‘s combined i.e. engineer‘s,arty. and zipper head‘ s and all were good soldier‘s and performed well.

 Yes bring it back !!!!!!!


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## DnA

didnt some CO‘s transfer trouble makers into it aswell as "good" soldiers

an those trouble makers are pretty much the reason the Reg got disbanded(Somalia), aside from the gov‘t making the worse decision


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## Yard Ape

> Gents, do a search of the war diary. This topic has been discussed ad nauseum.


Yes.   Here and also  here 

   Yard Ape


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## Yard Ape

. . . and  here (sorta)

   Yard Ape


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## Student Sapper

I know the Airborne had three rifle commandos.  Did it have a combat support commando?  If not, where were TOW, Mortars, Pioneers, Recce, and Air defence grouped?  

Could someone also explain the organisation of a Commando?  Was it just a large rifle Coy, or did it have extra platoons or sections?


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## Recce41

The Borne was out lined like any other Inf Regt.
. But had a Pathfinder Pl. Tow, Mortars, etc. But It had the Airborne btl group as follows.
E Bty 2 RCHA
1st Troop Recce Sqn RCD before that 8CH, the Sqn could be tasked as a whole if required. 
2 Troop, 2CER
2 Field Amb
Jump Troop, (SSF)Sigs Regt.
A small group from 2 MP Pl.
Int Pl (SSF)
and bits and pieces of the SSF (HQ) and sub unit from 427Sqn
This could also augmented by QORs jumpers, Loyal Eddies, and Regt De Sagania
As outlined in Order of Battle CAR BG 1990.


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## Anderson56

Well, I remember the Weyburn Regiment, eventually reintegrated into the SSR, which is now gone too.  Michael, a quick question.  The Regina Rifles badge was solid black.  I see that the badge on DND‘s site is now silver with green.  New cap badge?


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## Michael Dorosh

The Regina Rifles also wore silver coloured badges (officers) during WW II.  They had a helmet decal during the war, which was red, green and gold - apparently the regimental colours.

They were renamed the Royal Regina Rifles in the 1980s IIRC, so the DND badge would indeed be "new" - the last "new" badge being in 1953 with the addition of the Queen‘s Crown to replace the older King‘s Crown worn before.


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## Anderson56

Thanks Michael - since I wrote my post I have been casting around trying to find the old RR badge I have somewhere here.


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## greeves

> This could also augmented by QORs jumpers, Loyal Eddies, and Regt De Sagania
> As outlined in Order of Battle CAR BG 1990


Don‘t forget about us Westies!!     



> So the avarage Infanteer has something to work for.
> 
> For the Infanteer in Canada the Ultimate was to be a memeber of the Air Borne.


The ultimate, for those in the infantry who are so inclined, is really to wear the maroon beret.  This is still an attainable goal today.  I‘m sure the jumpers of the RCR, PPCLI, and R22er Para Coys are as proud to wear their regimental brass on their maroon berets as the CAR were.  So really, the "average infanteer" still has something to work for...also let‘s not forget JTF-2 and the Pathfinder course...


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## Student Sapper

Sorry to bring this back to life, but I don‘t get " computer time" very often.



> The Borne was out lined like any other Inf Regt. But had a Pathfinder Pl. Tow, Mortars, etc.


Were these grouped into a Cbt Sp Coy (or Cbt Sp Cdo) or some other sub-unit?  Why can‘t I find reference to them on any of the Regiment‘s web pages?


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## Spr.Earl

Student Sapper,
The Air Borne,Para‘s etc. are SUPER QUICK LIGHT INFANTRY!!!
 Yes they jump with Mortor‘s,and all the weapon‘s
needed to fight.
 Even Para Engineer‘s jump with all the kit plus needed Explosive‘s and tool‘s,at time‘s more waight than than the rifle man.

Also Air Borne are a UNIT as a WHOLE thier are no Sub Unit‘s with in the Air Borne.

 I hope this clear‘s up your question.

Remember,there‘s no such thing as a stupid question   

  Take care


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## Jungle

The CAR was composed of 6 sub-units (post-Somalia reorg):
- HQ CDO (Regt HQ + Sigs PL)
- 1er CDO
- 2 CDO
- 3 CDO
- CBT SPT CDO (Recce, Mortars, Direct Fire Spt, Engineers and Air Defence platoons)
- SVC CDO (Maint, TPT, Supply, Cooks, Medics, etc...)
The return of the CAR would greatly benefit the CF, though it should have a better selection process. In my opinion, if it was ever reactivated, the AIC (Airborne Indoctrination Course) should be used as a selection process and be done before posting to the Regt.


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## GGHG_Cadet

The other day I was at a Mcdonalds with a couple of buddies in uniform and one of the guys behind the counter came and started yellin at us for havin berets on and problems with our uniforms and it turned out he was in the CAR and it was really sad to see a member of The CAR workin at McDonalds. He told us how elite he felt in the CAR and when he was a pvt in the infantry workin to belong in the CAR it really gave a soldier a dream he said.


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## Jarnhamar

Don‘t feel sorry for the guy. If hes working at mcdonalds it‘s because he wants to be.


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