# From pay sheet to pay check- developing a reserve pay primer for my troops



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

In the 'Surprise! Pay being mishandled' thread, I came up with he idea of developing a basic training package for my troops by which I could teach them the fundamentals of how reserve pay works, particularly on class A. My intentions on this are a couple things:

-As soldiers, they'll 'get' reserve pay, and will be better able to tell when things are working and when they're not
-They'll be better able to self diagnose pay issues, as well as knowing what information I need to fix it.
-I'll be able to help my troops faster, and to help them to help themselves when pay issues come up. They'll know what I need to help figure out and fix a problem.
-The troops will have clear communication on what I and the administration expect of them, but also what they can expect of me and the unit.
-The troops will have a realistic appreciation of when they can expect to get paid for a given day's work, as well as what sort of time is reasonable to fix a problem
-The troops will know when things are wrong enough that it's necessary to involve their chain of command, and will be able to tell when they're being fed a line, or something otherwise stinks.
-Our clerks will be less burdened by troops concerned about their pay, as the soldiers will recognize that some things are problems and others are normal. Also, when a problem is presented to the clerks for resolution, all necessary information will be there for them to fix it.
-The troops will be better equipped to follow their own admin, through knowing about and understanding the master pay record and EMAA (a joint part of my plan is to get all my troops EMAA acocunts and set them up with email pay delivery).




I've got a rough framework done for what I'm going to put together, as follows:


 1. *Class A/Class B*
 a) What's the difference?
 b) Who pays for it (Fin codes)

2. *What goes in, what comes out*
 a) RPSR and your pay balance
 b) Deductions
_-CPP
-EI
-Pension
-Money owed
_
 3. *From pay sheet to pay check- how Class A pay works*
 a) What happens to a pay sheet within the unit?
 b) What happens to a pay sheet from an outside task (e.g., battle school)?
 c) Who needs to authorize it?
 d) How long should it take a pay sheet to reach the unit from outside, and whose job is that?
 e) What do the clerks do with the pay sheet?
 f) When the pay sheet gets entered into RPSR (describe RPSR), then what?
 g) Why does Class A pay lag by two weeks?
 h) Describe how pay runs and deposits work, and when they need to be authorized
Specifically, timelines
 i) How pay advances work.

 4. *Common pay problems and troubleshooting*
 a) I didn't get paid at all
_-Did your buddies get paid for the same tasking/work?
-Did you sign the pay sheet / all the pay sheets?
-Did the pay sheet get submitted?
-Did the pay sheet get submitted in time for the current pay run?
-Was the pay sheet authorized? Was a fin code provided?
-Did you owe the military money?_
 b) I didn't get as much money as I thought I should
_-Did you sign all pay sheets?
-Did you compare your pay received with all of the deductions?_
 c) I got paid at the wrong rank or IPC
_-Were you promoted recently?_

5. *Class B* (<180 days)
 a) Contracts
 b) Claims
 c) Allowances

 6. *Responsibilities*- The soldier, the chain of command, and the orderly room
 a) The Soldier
_-EMAA/pay stubs
-Master Pay Record Report
-Track your attendance
-Involve your chain of command at earliest opportunity, but have documentation and
 information for them. Specific dates and dollar figures.
-Make sure you weren't paid too much. Identify it and don't spend it if you were._
 b) The chain of command
_-Accept pay problems as, generally, an immediate administrative priority. Pay will be one of the biggest concerns of the soldier and can have one of the greatest detrimental effects on their welfare and morale, as well as that of their peers.
-Be aware of the timelines upon which pay work, particularly when a soldier reports a problem shortly before a pay run. You might have to move fast to fix it.
-Continue to push the issue up the chain as quickly as possible. Seek feedback on it.
-Keep the soldier informed about the state of their pay problem resolution._
 c) The orderly room / administrative pers
_-Receiving pay sheets and inputting them into the system in a timely manner
-Activating contracts
-Preparing and verifying claims
-Identifying errors or other issues, and communicating them down the chain of command to the soldier promptly
-Fixing the soldier's pay with as little delay as possible.
-Informing the soldier/chain of command as to what actually is wrong and what's being done to fix it.
-Advising as to how long fixing a problem should take.
-Keeping the soldier informed of other administrative alternatives (e.g., pay advances)_



I figure I'm about 80% there with regards to the content of this package. As much as it looks, most of this will require no more than a sentence or a short para to explain. I intend this to be something that can be handed to a new troops the day they start BMQ, so that they understand the 'what, when, who, how, and why' of pay and its myriad problems.

I also want an undercurrent of this to be that pay problems should not be normal and should not be accepted, but that an individual is responsible for keeping abreast of their own admin, and that a pay problem shouldn't generate a hatefest for the BOR, but just an honest effort to meet the chain of command halfway and provide everything we need to help them.

I'm not yet at the point of really plugging in content. What I'd like for the time being is some feedback on whether any of this either doesn't merit inclusion, or whether I've missed anything glaring (I must have) that needs to go in there. Once I have a revised framework for it, then I'll be soliciting a bit of help (some of which has already been kindly offered) to fill in the gaps. When all is said and done I'll be submitting it through my chain for approval and revision, so I can use it to train my troops. I might potentially develop it into a powerpoint, too. As a collaborative effort, of course, once I'm most of the way there I'll happily make the file accessible for anyone else to make use of.

So, for those of you with the time and inclination, fire away- and thank you for the help.


----------



## klacquement (26 Dec 2010)

While you say that this is aimed at reservists, I can also see a need for something similar for us reg-force types.  Even though the pay sheet isn't applicable, things like claims and FIN codes might be useful.  Some of the "what does this mean on my pay stub" is also all-around useful.


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

lacqui said:
			
		

> FIN codes might be useful.



Fin codes dont mean anything to the average RegF guy and its not necessary. If you need to understand and work with fin codes you are either a clerk or a section 32/34 and have the requisite training.

A new RegF member needs to know about fin codes about as much as i need to know about castrating al pacas.


----------



## GAP (26 Dec 2010)

Well....CA...you never know what might come in handy.... :nod:


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

lacqui said:
			
		

> While you say that this is aimed at reservists, I can also see a need for something similar for us reg-force types.  Even though the pay sheet isn't applicable, things like claims and FIN codes might be useful.  Some of the "what does this mean on my pay stub" is also all-around useful.



As a reservist myself, and all my troops being reservists, they're my PTA on this. Anyone on the regs side is welcome to use any of what I have and adapt is as fits, but I've got rather a lot on my plate already. This isn't supposed to be anything comprehensive on pay; just no more and no less than what is of significance to the _individual soldier_ and, if I might be allowed a bit of conceit my peers in the NCO corps who are generally the interface between the reservists who's about to miss his rent cheque and the administrative organs who can fix it. Simply put, we're never actually taught how pay is supposed to work, so I'm just trying to put something out that will help dissipate the smoke on this one.

The only reason I'm including fin codes at all is so I can explain what I mean when I say to one of my troops, "Yeah, you signed the pay sheet for this tasking and handed it to me. I gave it to the BOR. But they need to get it signed off on because the Directorate of Redundant Bureaucracy and Administrative Inventiveness is paying for the tasking, and it needs to come out of their budget." My unit gets a lot of random little taskings thrown out to us, and this is an issue that occasionally crops up. Fin codes won't be more than a couple sentences in this.

"What does this mean on my pay stub?" is a great idea. Thank you.


----------



## Celticgirl (26 Dec 2010)

I am new to the world of RMS, but I work in an Air Res OR, and from my limited experience, I see some information here that, in my view, doesn't benefit the average CF member. For starters, fin codes are not useful to anyone but clerks and admin/finance officers.  There is one fin code for Class A and one for Class B (Class C pay is handled through CCPS, not RPSR and is therefore conducted by Reg F clerks).  What would a member need to know those codes for?  The daily rate of pay is THE SAME, whether you are A or B.  You will simply get more days on B, so if you are not being paid the 30 or 31 days when on B, or if your A days don't add up to what you have submitted on your pay sheets, go to the clerks and bring it to their attention.  But I wouldn't recommend going in to an OR and telling a clerk he or she entered the wrong Fin code unless you are his or her boss. LOL  Further to this, your question "was a fin code provided?" (section 4 (a)) has me puzzled.  Why would one be provided to the member on his/her pay sheet?  All a mbr needs to do is submit dates and hours worked, sign on each lined filled in, and have a supervisor (minimum one rank above) sign the same lines prior to submitting it to the OR.  

Another thing that got my attention is the concept that pay advances are a good 'alternative' for members.  Pay advances should be reserved for emergencies only.  Never rely on pay advances as an option, people...you will likely be told 'no' if you don't have a darned good reason for it.  (If you do get an advance, discuss with your clerks in what increments you would like them to take the money off your future pays.  If you don't discuss it with them, they will use their own judgment, which may not work for your budget.)  If you have a TD claim for an upcoming course/tasking/whatever, then by all means ask for an advance on your claim.  However, be prepared to pay some of it back if for some reason you don't complete your TD.  Always keep in mind that final claims may end up being smaller amounts than the initial claims depending on the many variables of your TD, so it's always a good idea to ask for less than the 'maximum allowable' amount.  Usually, it ends up being a shade more, but you just never know. 

I do like the sections on the OP's pay primer about members checking their own pay rates (rank and IPC) on statements as this is something that can go unnoticed for one or two (or more) pays before it gets picked up.  Do be proactive with your pay statements.  Know what your rate should be and if there is a discrepancy, talk to your OR clerks about it a.s.a.p.  If you do not have access to EMAA (on the DWAN) to get your statements, ask to have them emailed to you.  We have no problem doing this if we know you have no other way of getting your pay statements.

Overall, I think the OP has a good idea here. It's wise to educate members on basic administrative and financial issues, especially those new to the Reserves and/or the CF.  This would be a great thing for a Reserve PD Day.  (I keep telling my supervisors that I want to do a workshop on 'How to Properly Fill out a CF100' on our next PD Day. )


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

Thanks.

For reference, here's exactly what I've written on fin codes:



> In the reserves we'll often work taskings for other units or organizations. Every unit or organization has its own budget. When your unit provides you to work for another organization, that organization has to pay for your employment, not your unit. The outside organization has to provide your clerks with a 'fin code', or financial code, for the pay sheet- what budget the money comes out of. This is not your responsibility to identify. Just be aware that it exists, and if a fin code isn't provided your pay might not arrive when you expect it.



Specific bit of info I'm looking here- a fact check.
Troops sign pay sheets. Clerks get pay sheets. Sheets are authorized (per unit SOP) if necessary. Pay sheets are submitted to RPSR. Twice a month, the pay run is certified and submitted, and will result in a deposit two pay days hence. Exactly when in each month is the pay run due to be certified and submitted? We had one not too long ago where a few of my troops didn't get paid on Nov 30th for Nov 11th (a Thursday) or for taskings they worked on the 12th, 13th, and 14th. I explained that it was unlikely that those pay sheets were submitted in time for the pay run for deposit on the 30th. I want to confirm I'm correct, and exactly when in each month that happens.

EDIT TO ADD: Oh yeah, and I'll mention the dangers of pay advances, and that they should only be viewed as an alternative to not paying your absolutely necessary bills. I think we've all seen advances go horribly wrong.


----------



## Celticgirl (26 Dec 2010)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Specific bit of info I'm looking here- a fact check.
> Troops sign pay sheets. Clerks get pay sheets. Sheets are authorized (per unit SOP) if necessary. Pay sheets are submitted to RPSR. Twice a month, the pay run is certified and submitted, and will result in a deposit two pay days hence. Exactly when in each month is the pay run due to be certified and submitted? We had one not too long ago where a few of my troops didn't get paid on Nov 30th for Nov 11th (a Thursday) or for taskings they worked on the 12th, 13th, and 14th. I explained that it was unlikely that those pay sheets were submitted in time for the pay run for deposit on the 30th. I want to confirm I'm correct, and exactly when in each month that happens.



In our unit, we ask that pay sheets are submitted on or before the 15th and the last day (30th or 31st) NLT 1000 hrs (troops: submit pay sheets on your last day of work - never sign and submit a pay sheet for a day or days not yet worked, this is considered fraud).  The RPSR clerk (not me) begins inputting pay on the 15th or 30th/31st.  If necessary, this will carry over to the following morning.  However, RPSR will lock clerks out beyond a certain time period (I do not know when exactly that occurs...seems to be about 2 days later but I would have to check with the RPSR clk for confirmation).  This is why late pay sheets do not get submitted.  It's not that 'we' won't do it, but that the actual system only accepts pay runs at specific times of the month and for specific periods.  If the pay sheets you talked about for November were submitted late, then yes, that is why they were not paid on the 30th of Nov.  However, they should have received the money on their next pay, 15 Dec.  If they still did not receive it, contact the OR and leave a msg in that regard...someone will be in your unit's OR over the holidays to do pay and will get your msg.


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> In our unit, we ask that pay sheets are submitted on or before the 15th and the last day (30th or 31st) NLT 1000 hrs (troops: submit pay sheets on your last day of work - never sign and submit a pay sheet for a day or days not yet worked, this is considered fraud).  The RPSR clerk (not me) begins inputting pay on the 15th or 30th/31st.  If necessary, this will carry over to the following morning.  However, RPSR will lock clerks out beyond a certain time period (I do not know when exactly that occurs...seems to be about 2 days later but I would have to check with the RPSR clk for confirmation).  This is why late pay sheets do not get submitted.  It's not that 'we' won't do it, but that the actual system only accepts pay runs at specific times of the month and for specific periods.  If the pay sheets you talked about for November were submitted late, then yes, that is why they were not paid on the 30th of Nov.  However, they should have received the money on their next pay, 15 Dec.  If they still did not receive it, contact the OR and leave a msg in that regard...someone will be in your unit's OR over the holidays to do pay and will get your msg.



Thanks again. I got most of the generalities of how it all works (read the 'Surprise!' thread in this same forum for my tale of woe) but it was specifically the bit about the pay run going in a couple days after the 15th and 30th/31st that I needed. That's good enough for my guys to understand what goes on in enough detail for them to know that not getting paid for working Saturday the 14th probably isn't a problem on the 31st.

This is all coming together rather well, and significantly better than I expected.


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

My first draft copy is done. If anyone's willing to PM me an email address I can send this to to be looked at, I'd be much obliged. It comes to about eight and a half pages.


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Always keep in mind that final claims may end up being smaller amounts than the initial claims depending on the many variables of your TD, so it's always a good idea to ask for less than the 'maximum allowable' amount.



Thats the same logic that causes rules where i can only get 80-90% of what my claim is worth as an advance.

When i am away on TD........should i just eat 80% of my daily entitlement just in case ?

Can i tell the hotel that i will pay 80% of my bill now and they will get the other 20 when my claim gets processed ?

If a claim is worth X ammount, advance the member X ammount. If the TD gets cut short, do a recovery and thats it. Pretty damned simple.

I have been here for a little over 5 years and do roughly 10-12 TD trips a year. I have had very few be cut short and quite a few go longer. Using the logic of "take less in case it gets cut short", why not use "take the full ammount in case you dont come home on time".....

If more clerks went on more TD trips, stupid rules would disapear quick.........


----------



## FreeFloat (26 Dec 2010)

Thought I'd chime in here - I was directed to this thread by a friend.

I have 15+ years in the Forces as an RMS Clerk - although I'm Reserve, most of that 15 years is on contract of some sort, both Class B and C.  I've worked extensively with BOTH RPSR and CCPS (as well as Claims-X etc)

I just know I could put in a lot of valuable pointers for you - please feel free to email me your document for review, or PM me for my Forces addy!

---------------------------------------------

Boy I could write whole books about this topic.  But just a few tweaks come immediately to mind:

I can offer a little further clarification on the "production schedule" (i.e. payrun generation timings) for RPSR.  Generally, each payrun is "generated" by RPSR at least 10 days prior to the pay deposit day.  So for example, November 30's cut-off would be somewhere around November 20.  December 15th's would be around December 5, and so on.  Anything NOT input to RPSR _and certified by the finance officer or delegate_ by this cutoff date would NOT be paid out on that payrun, and would have to wait for the next payrun.

Pay sheets (and certain allowances) may be entered at basically anytime throughout the month, but only the items both entered AND certified by the payrun cutoff date will make it to that payrun.  Sometimes, even though the paysheets for a certain date were entered in the system, if the finance officer (or his delegate, most units have more than one) has not yet "certified" the items in the RPSR, they will continue to sit there, and not be paid out, until this happens.  That's sometimes why attendance for a certain day, say 11 Nov, doesn't end up paid on the payrun you'd expect it.

At one of the units I worked for, we always told the soldiers to Expect at least one pay period's delay for every Class A day worked, but if you haven't seen the pay by two pay periods later, then advise us.  This is of course due to the whole entered/certified/cutoff date thing.  For example, take Nov 11th.  By Nov 12th, the paysheets have been submitted to the Orderly Room.  The applicable fin code is added to them at some point, and the Commanding Officer (or Adjt/Fin O in some units) has signed them at the bottom, thereby authorizing the listed members' attendance.  So by Nov 15th (the 13th and 14th being weekend days), the pay sheets make their way back to the Orderly Room for input.  The Pay Clerk may or may not get them all entered the same day (this will vary widely between units, some are simply more organized and efficient than others).  Once entered, now the pay sheets must be verified and certified _in the RPSR_ by someone holding the authority to do so.  (Most units will have a minimum of 2 people with certification authority)  This may be done the same day (Nov 16th or 17th in this example).  In this hypothetical example, if the cutoff for end-November pay is the 20th, then yes, the troops will see their pay on the end-November payrun.  However if the payrun were any earlier, say the 17th or 18th, and if the paysheets spend just one extra day on anyone's desk, you can quickly see how pay CAN "miss" a payrun.

Don't forget, this hypothetical example follws only ONE paysheet as it goes its rounds!  In reality, paysheets are a neverending flow, although some units tend to process them in little "batches" or clusters.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

A word about advances.  You should probably mention that advances CANNOT be issued against Class A pay.  NEVER. It's actually against NDHQ DMPAP (the RPSR Gods) policy.  A "contingency payment" - that is, a manually calculated deposit for a specific member against a specific payrun - can be generated if necessary, such as in cases where a Class B contract cannot be entered and certified in time to meet the cutoff for that payrun.  HOWEVER, the window of opportunity for contingency payments is even tighter - only 2 DAYS PER PAYRUN!  Contingency payments must be certified by DMPAP and the reason for the request must be substantiated by the unit (or else DMPAP rejects the request and buddy doesn't get paid that payrun)

Contingency payments are the preferred "emergency" payment type for a member on Class B contract when necessary.  The main reasons for this are that "local" payments, i.e. via cheque issued by the local cashier, basically cause a member's entire pay account to be administratively "frozen" until the cashier sends back certain receipts allowing the advance to be properly deducted from the member's pay.  While normally this takes place within 1-2 payrun's time, it CAN take longer.  Can you imagine having the member's pay account essentially "frozen" for over a month waiting for the advance paperwork to go through?  If the member is on Class B status, and receiving regular Class B pay, it's far preferable to issue "contingency payment" against the member's existing contract (which processes automatically) than to wait for the manual paperwork of a cashier advance.

A contingency payment can be likened to a Reg Force "pre determined pay" in that the member's clerk manually determines how much the member is to receive in their bank account, and feeds that number to the system.  In CCPS, this is done only once and the member will continue to receive that clerk-determined amount until the PDP is cancelled - in RPSR, the clerk manually calculates and submits the amount to DMPAP each and every pay.  In both cases, any money the member earns above and beyond the pre-determined amount, is simply accumulated in the member's RPSR or CCPS account, and once the requirement for PDP or contingency payment has passed, the unit clerk removes the PDP (in CCPS) or returns the member to DFT status (Direct Funds Transfer, for RPSR) and the pay system automatically pays out the remaining balance on the next available payrun.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Apologies if this got a little rambly - as you can see, I have a LOT of insight to share.  I'd love to share it - please ask me specific questions, as I do better with them than just winging it out there at random.

Oh, and - to OP - are you mentioning the differences between Class A <6 hours and Class A >6 hours?  I know you're making a difference between Class A and B, but Class A itself can be for either half or full days.


----------



## Harris (26 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thats the same logic that causes rules where i can only get 80-90% of what my claim is worth as an advance.



And as an FYI for those who have a DND Amex, I was told that you are not entitled to ANY advance on a claim.


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

Freefloat,

Thanks for the insights. I dont have reservists working for me right now but i expect that to change in the near future. The information will come in handy.



			
				Harris said:
			
		

> And as an FYI for those who have a DND Amex, I was told that you are not entitled to ANY advance on a claim.



I have had a DND amex for 5 years and have been issued advances for all but 2 TD trips. Not that it does me too much good these days ( the amex) as it is not useable to pay for accomodations at US facilities.

Heck, we had a guy this years whos TD claim was about $25k.........the  Amex ITC doesnt have that kind of limit......


----------



## Celticgirl (26 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thats the same logic that causes rules where i can only get 80-90% of what my claim is worth as an advance.
> 
> When i am away on TD........should i just eat 80% of my daily entitlement just in case ?
> 
> ...



Cdn Aviator, clerks don't make the rules for TD.  And we do go on TD trips for courses and whatnot, like every other member.

You can take the maximum allowable if that is what you feel you need (you are entitled), but don't go crying to the clerks if for some reason your trip/course gets cut short and you end up owing money.  I haven't been at this job for all that long and I have seen it happen more than a few times already.  

What you need to realize is that the initial claim is nothing more than a 'guestimate'.  You are taking a gamble by taking the full maximum allowable amount for an advance.  Mind you, more times than not, you will likely win the gamble...but if you can't afford to lose, don't play the game. 

As for your hotel comment, I am having a good chuckle here (maybe it's just the rum and egg nog ).  If you pay for a hotel room and have the receipt when you bring back your TD claim, then of course you will be reimbursed the full cost.  TD includes your incidentals as well, so you should be able to advance enough to pay for hotel accommodations (and meals, if necessary) without taking the whole 'guestimate'.  

As a clerk, I only advise based on my (as aforementioned, "limited") experience.  Take the advice or leave it, but don't complain if it doesn't work out in your favour.  Lots of people don't think about the consequences of their decisions.  If you are informed and still want the maximum moulah, then fill your boots!


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Cdn Aviator, clerks don't make the rules for TD.  And we do go on TD trips for courses and whatnot, like every other member.



I know, i know. Just a freindly jab thats all........



> What you need to realize is that the initial claim is nothing more than a 'guestimate'.



I'm well aware of that. When you print out the claimsX sheets, it even shows you how the estimate was done. Like i said, i do this ALOT !!!



> If you pay for a hotel room and have the receipt when you bring back your TD claim, then of course you will be reimbursed the full cost.



Of course you get *reimbursed * the full costs. I never said you didnt. What i said is that , at the time when i pay my bill, i am only normaly advanced 80%. The last 20% has to come from somewhere when i pay the bill. Guess where that money comes from.




> TD includes your incidentals as well, so you should be able to advance enough to pay for hotel accommodations (and meals, if necessary) without taking the whole 'guestimate'.



Incidentals and meal per diem are not "pay the hotel money"...........Its "feed yourself money"...........


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

Anyways.......too far off-topic. Sorry !


----------



## Celticgirl (26 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Incidentals and meal per diem are not "pay the hotel money"...........Its "feed yourself money"...........



So the $17.30 per diem for incidentals and $67.90 per diem meals (total = $85.20) is not enough to feed yourself and make up the other 20% of your hotel bill?  I'd love to know what deluxe accommodations and restaurants you patronize on your TD trips.


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> So the $17.30 per diem for incidentals and $67.90 per diem meals (total = $85.20) is not enough to feed yourself and make up the other 20% of your hotel bill?  I'd love to know what deluxe accommodations and restaurants you patronize on your TD trips.



It usualy is but it is not the point. The GoC sees fit to provide me with a certain ammount of money to feed myself. That money is not allocated to pay the hotel bill.

And if you travelled to some of the places i have to, you would know that the TD rates come severly short in some locations.


----------



## Celticgirl (26 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> It usualy is but it is not the point. The GoC sees fit to provide me with a certain ammount of money to feed myself. That money is not allocated to pay the hotel bill.
> 
> And if you travelled to some of the places i have to, you would know that the TD rates come severly short in some locations.



Then it is a good thing you are also getting paid while on TD.  ;D


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Then it is a good thing you are also getting paid while on TD.  ;D



Thats right because otherwise, how would my bills back home get paid ?

My pay is not "pay DND's hotel bill" either.

Your arguments are exactly like the "you shouldnt count on your reserve pay" line..........


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

FreeFloat- your input is very much appreciated.

Regarding contingency payments vs advances- it's not my intent to differentiate. The result, so far as a reserve Pte/Cpl is ever going to be able to tell, is the same. I'm focusing with that part on function. A pay advance by any other name would smell as sweet when the rent comes due. But I do get your reasoning in mentioning the difference- it's just a difference that is of significance to the clerks, and much less so to the member. The term 'pay advance' is, to my mind _functionally_ correct, in that it nicely sums up the effect of the contingency payment process in a way a new kid with no knowledge or experience with the pay system can 'get'. Remember that the primary training audience here is NOT those of us who, for better or worse, understand the pay system.

I've uploaded the first draft to Google Docs for anyone to look at here: From Pay Sheet To Pay Check

I've already decided to add meals to the (very) short list of allowances I've chosen to include. Any other amendments people can recommend are appreciated. Just remember the training audience here. I'm looking for comprehension, not specific technical knowledge.


----------



## FreeFloat (26 Dec 2010)

Just thought I'd mention something from my depth of experience with regards to claims (TD etc):

1. If you have an AMEX ITC, you are not entitled to advances off TD claims.  The AMEX is intended to provide that "pay now claim later" buffer.  While I understand and appreciate difficulties in paying up-front for a hotel which the AMEX may or may not be able to cover in full whereas a claim advance would be able to, that should be the exception, not the rule. 

If clerks in the past have issued advances to a holder of the AMEX ITC, they're "doin it rong" (to borrow a popular web phrase).  There should be a note on the member's file that they are an AMEX holder.

Don't forget, the AMEX issued by DND for TD purposes is for TD purposes only.  That means it's not authorized to be used for personal purchases either between or during TD trips.  A lot of people I know say "Yeah, but I'll pay it off on my very next paycheck, what's the big deal?"  The big deal is that even though it's approved against an individual's credit rating, it's _issued by_ DND for _DND purposes only_.  You want a person credit card for "fun", go get your own    It's comparable to taking the staff car to go grocery shopping, or booking a civvie-pattern DND minivan to go to you'r kid's soccer match.  Just not done.

2. Most TD claims are done with ESTIMATED itineraries, costs, etc.  For example, in Claims-X, the predetermined hotel rates are often a bit out to lunch (usually in the member's favour, but you never know).  in addition, the itineraries, the specific dates and times of departure and arrival for each leg of the trip, have a very direct effect on meal and incidental entitlements.  I cannot tell you how many times I've collected a claim from a member upon his return from TD, and once we've updated his itinerary to match reality and input his receipts, the amount owing back to the member was *different* than the estimate!  In some cases, off by greater than $100.  If the member had taken an advance on the entire estimated amount, he'd have to pay that back...

There is a statute of limitations of a sort on a claim for which an advance has been issued.  The member has only *30 days* from the last date of travel for that TD to bring in the claim and finalize it (providing updated itinerary, additional receipts, etc).  If the cashier does not receive the finalized claim within that time frame, they can, will and *do* initiate recovery proceedings against the member.  This can result in the member suddenly finding he has no paycheck for one or more pay periods (depending on the amount of the claim - in a claim recovery scenario, the ENTIRE amount of the advance is recovered, and only reimbursed to the member once he finalizes his claim properly)

In some bases on which I've worked, the Finance Offcicer's hard-and-fast rule is that the cashier SHALL NOT issue any advance for more than 80% (or in some cases 90%) of the claim's estimated value.  This provides a buffer against accidental overestimates.

Because the claim contains the incidental daily rate AS WELL AS reimbursement for meals/travel/lodging rates, there should never be an occasion in which the member *NEEDS* to have more than 50-60% of the total claim value "in hand" in order to make the trip!  Think about it - you could get an advance for all your gas money, all your meals-in-transit, your lodging, and leave the incidentals (that $17.30/day) alone, and STILL have enough money to make the trip unless something like the lodging cost was GROSSLY underestimated.

3. One more point about claims.  While it's fairly straightforward to pursue a claims recovery against a Reg F member if necessary, it is NOT SO for Reservists.  Claims-X, Cashier-X and RPSR are NOT linked.  Furthermore, if the recovery is against a Class A member (i.e. not on continuous contract), the unit may end up waiting months to get the money back!  If the recovery is processed through cashier and the member has been contacted to come in and settle it (and fails to do so), and the Finance Officer orders the recovery off the member's pay, it can be entered on RPSR and if the member has had no attendance earnings, it will sit as a negative balance against the member's pay guide until such time as the member actually signs in and parades, thereby earning offsetting attendance.  

I've seen it happen where a Class A guy gets RTU'd off a course, of course he took an advance on his claim, and once the unit stands up again after the summer break they realize buddy is NES (non-effective status, basically means the guy never came back in to the unit).  By this time the cashier has processed the recovery, submitted the paperwork to the unit, they input it against his pay, but still no one has been able to get ahold of buddy and get him to come in so release proceedings are initiated.  Well this unresolved claim advance is just one more thing the AJAG will have to write up as "still owing to Her Majesty" along with all buddy's kit... yes it eventually goes to the Receiver General and YEARS down the road buddy will suddenly have the amount owing come off a future tax return...


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I've already decided to add meals to the (very) short list of allowances I've chosen to include.



Make sure to mention that meal rates do change on occasion and that different locations members travel to ( i.e. countries) will have differing rates as well.


----------



## Celticgirl (26 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thats right because otherwise, how would my bills back home get paid ?
> 
> My pay is not "pay DND's hotel bill" either.
> 
> Your arguments are exactly like the "you shouldnt count on your reserve pay" line..........



My goodness, CA, would you like a little cheese to go with your whine? 

You've been in the CF a lot longer than I have so you know the drill.  If you don't like it, tell your CoC you prefer not to be sent on any TD trips/courses/taskings/exercises.  Problem solved.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (26 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Make sure to mention that meal rates do change on occasion and that different locations members travel to ( i.e. countries) will have differing rates as well.



As they change if you are in the geographic area or not......


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

CdnAviator: Too much detail for my specific application. Anything resulting in international travel is both likely to receive greater administrative attention, and greater briefings given to the soldier(s) in question. I can't picture us randomly sending three privates and a junior Cpl off to Bratislava. I'm thinking more the kid who has to hop on a bus to Meaford for his support weapons course.

I'm trying to maintain some sense of brevity (something I traditionally suck at) and keep it strictly relevant to my context. Remember, I'm an infantry section commander in a reserve regiment. Would that I had a jammy job that had me worrying over international meal claim rates.  ;D

Obviously, anyone adapting this for their own use is welcome to add or subtract as necessary and appropriate to the situation. Just don't claim credit for the whole thing.


----------



## Celticgirl (26 Dec 2010)

@FreeFloat...Excellent information all around. Thank you.


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

...And yes. Writing this has been the larger chunk of my boxing day. Lame, I know.

Rum will make everything better!


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> You've been in the CF a lot longer than I have so you know the drill.



Its exactly because i know the drill, that i know what people have to go through.



> If you don't like it, tell your CoC you prefer not to be sent on any TD trips/courses/taskings/exercises.  Problem solved.



I always manage fine, thank you. But then again, i am a SNCO paid spec 1 with AIRCRA. My new privates dont have that luxury. Its *their* interests i am looking out for. They dont make my paycheck to cover the other 20%.............



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Lame, I know.



Its not lame. You are looking after your troops.


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Its not lame. You are looking after your troops.



Self-deprecating humor is how I roll. And besides, I have rum and coke now, so it's good.

Seriously though, I would appreciate feedback on this thing.


----------



## 4Feathers (26 Dec 2010)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> If more clerks went on more TD trips, stupid rules would disapear quick.........



Wow,  it was so simple all along! If I had only known the clerks were making these "stupid" rules we could have fixed this long ago! Not only that, we should send all the clerks away on TD trips and see how the Sqn/unit functions without them and all the stupid rules they make up. Brilliant!


----------



## Nfld Sapper (26 Dec 2010)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Self-deprecating humor is how I roll. And besides, I have rum and coke now, so it's good.
> 
> Seriously though, I would appreciate feedback on this thing.



Sorry, we are unable to retrieve the document for viewing


----------



## aesop081 (26 Dec 2010)

4Feathers said:
			
		

> Wow,  it was so simple all along! If I had only known the clerks were making these "stupid" rules we could have fixed this long ago! Not only that, we should send all the clerks away on TD trips and see how the Sqn/unit functions without them and all the stupid rules they make up. Brilliant!



yes i know how that sounds. I was trying to say one thing and blamed it on the wrong folks. Mea Culpa.


----------



## brihard (26 Dec 2010)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Sorry, we are unable to retrieve the document for viewing



<EDITED>

Oops, I didn't set it to 'public'. That'll do it. I'm new to the whole Google Docs thing.

The most recent link I posted ought to work. Here it is again anyway.


----------



## FreeFloat (26 Dec 2010)

A little feedback on the document:

Section 6. entitled "Class B" and "Contracts".  You indicate that the member will sign a "contract" (yadda yadda) and that it is sometimes known as a "route letter" - I think you should correct that.  Although the Class B *financial* document itself is called a "route letter," there is in fact nothing on there that the member has to sign... you're probably thinking of the Annex to the CMP 20/04, entitled "Statement of Understanding for Reserve Service Over 30 Days" or in short form, "the SOU" (which of course refers to the Statement of understanding part).  The SOU is the only Class B document a member is required to sign in order to initiate the actual employment (notwithstanding any internal in-clearance documents).


..................and a Pet Peeve of mine:

_Technically_, the SOU is not a "contract" in a legal sense, and at LFCA HQ (my most recent job before my current one was as the J1 Employment Clerk) we were specifically attempting to get people to STOP calling the SOU a "contract" as it tended to get misleading to the members.... a "contract" implies that DND has made a legal agreement to employ the member for a specified job, position, and term - when in fact, that is not the case.  This of course became quite a sticking point last year when a lot of Class B employments were abruptly shortened and members were given their 30-day notices...... a few tried arguing that they were under "contract" for X many years.  Yet, if you READ the SOU, it specifies that DND makes NO guarantees as to the length, the job, the position, or the location in which service is to be performed!  From a legal standpoint, no "contract" has been reached - rather, simply an agreement or "understanding" that DND is offering employment, the terms of which can be modified at any time including the end date.


----------



## Celticgirl (27 Dec 2010)

Brihard,

A few points on your document:

1) I saw that PILL (Pay in Lieu of Leave) was mentioned for Class A Reserve pay.  Don't forget to include that this will (not may) be included on the pay statement of all Class A Reservists at a rate of 9% of their daily pay rate.  Also, there is TAA (Travel Assistance Allowance) for those living more than 16 km from their unit.  This will be submitted at the end of each month and will be seen on the 15th pay of the following month.

Class B Reservists will get 1 annual leave day for every 15 days on his/her contract.  The SOU (see #3 below) will give the exact number of leave days you are entitled to per your Cl B contract.

2) Be sure mbrs know that it is one pay sheet per pay period (i.e. 1st to 15th and 16th to 30th/31st) except in extenuating circumstances.  Sign them, have your supervisor (min one rank above you) sign, and submit it to the OR on your last working day of that pay period.

3) Class B contracts:  Members sign a SOU (Statement of Understanding) at the start of each contract, which gives the details of his/her employment (please read before signing).  Their immediate supervisor will sign a Route Letter on the day they begin their contract and on they day they end their contract.  These docs remain on member's pay files and when a member is on a B contract over 180 days, they will be faxed to the appropriate units so that members get the benefits they are entitled to (medical/dental).  (Maybe these benefits should be explained somewhat in your notes?  For instance, many reservists don't know that after a 90-day waiting period, they are entitled to 80% return on basic dental expenses regardless of class of service.  That's right - Class A gets basic dental @ 80%!)

4) TD:  People on Class A can get TD, they will simply be put on Class B for the duration of their TD plus attributable leave days.  Everyone is entitled to TD if sent away for military purposes.  Re: receiving money "within a couple of weeks of returning from a tasking"...this comment is a little misleading...the member has a responsibility to bring in his/her claim as soon as possible after returning from TD to the OR for processing.  There is a 30-day window for the finalization to be completed and money is received 5-7 days after being DFT'd to a member's bank account (and it should be noted that not all cashiers are on-the-ball with the clerks' DFT requests, so this can take longer than expected at times).  Incidentally, members will do better asking their OR clerks for any 'updates' in this regard vs. their CoC, who likely will have no clue.

5) Maybe I've missed it (lots of rum and egg nog this eve  ;D), but I didn't see where you indicated that Class A pay is one pay behind.  A Class B reservist working the first two weeks of a month will be paid for those days on the 15th of that month.  A Class A reservist working the same two weeks will be paid on the last day of that month.  Big difference.  Those going from B to A are often shocked to discover they will essentially 'miss' an entire pay period (i.e. go a whole month without pay).  Going from A to B is much better...two pays on one payday.  This is an important factor for most people's budgets!

6) MPRR:  If members see any info that needs updating, please let your clerks know.  It's your career...you want the most up-to-date info to appear on your MPRR, so make sure it is accurate at any given time.  

By the way Brihard, Class A can differ from unit to unit...in my unit, for instance, we can work 14 days of Class A per month unless otherwise indicated by our CoC.


----------



## ModlrMike (27 Dec 2010)

The only point I would make is that it seems very Army centric. For example at my NavRes unit, we don't control our own pay sheets. You sign in upon arrival each night. The only exception being that some of us senior folks who work on projects at home can submit incremental pay sheets now and again.


----------



## brihard (27 Dec 2010)

Awesome. Thanks, both of you.

FreeFloat- I'll amend the Class B stuff in the next revision, though I'll be keeping it simple. Recall that the primary focus of this is *pay*, and specifically, pay *problems*. But I will put some of that in.

Celticgirl- Thanks for the percentage figure on PILL. Travel assistance will go in the next revision too. I take the bus, so I forget that one. Regarding 'one pay sheet per period' though- I'm not sure what you mean? At my unit we have a sheet printed off at the start of each parade night with all the troops' names on it; essentially they're signing a roll call. For casual work they simply print their names on a blank form. I've not seen a pay sheet before that encompasses an entire pay period.

I'm not going to go into benefits on this one; that's outside the scope of what specifically I'm working on. That, however, might become a new project- things like the dental could be very useful. 

I'll clarify the TD thing. We've done a few exercises where we staye din shacks at night, and got TD for that. I'll mention that it can be applicable to Class A as well.

I'll clarify the 'on return form tasking' thing to make sure that submitting their claims is emphasized. Regarding going through their CoC though, I'm trying to do a couple things there- reinforce the CoC to begin with, and preventing troops form of their own accord going up to BOR and bugging the clerks without at least having their Sect Comd try to troubleshoot the issue for them. Clerks have a lot to do, and a substantial portion of the pay problems I see form my guys are ones that I'm able to clarify for them- many fall in the 'wait one pay period; recock the weapon; check your bank account' IA. I'm not going to get *too* hung up on specific time frames. They probably vary locally, and that's a bit more info than the troops likely need.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that Class A pay will lag, but I'll phrase it more explicitly. As for the class A limits, that's what came down specifically through my CoC. I'll leave that one as is, and anyone else using this can alter this as deemed fit.

ModlrMike- I'm army centric.  No, I'm just trying to stay in my own arcs. This is primarily for my section, and I'm assuming that my CoC will probably want to spread it at least to the rest of my platoon. I won't profess expertise on navy or air force pay. I'm limiting what I put together to what my guys will use, but of course it's out there free for use and amendment. according to anyone else's needs. Once I get it all done I'll post up the draft I'm submitting, and will amend it as necessary pending chain of command feedback. From that point, it's 'open source' for anyone to use or fill in for their particular unit circumstances.

Remember, I'm infantry; short words, and easily confused.  ;D Plus brevity, clarity, yadda yadda yadda.

Cheers to all of you- a glass is being raised on my end. Hopefully I'll have something ready to present to my CoC for approval by the time we stand up again.


----------



## dapaterson (27 Dec 2010)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> 1) I saw that PILL (Pay in Lieu of Leave) was mentioned for Class A Reserve pay.  Don't forget to include that this will (not may) be included on the pay statement of all Class A Reservists at a rate of 9% of their daily pay rate.  Also, there is TAA (Travel Assistance Allowance) for those living more than 16 km from their unit.  This will be submitted at the end of each month and will be seen on the 15th pay of the following month.



PILL is payable for any service of 29 consecutive days or less - class A, B or C.



> Class B Reservists will get 1 annual leave day for every 15 days on his/her contract.  The SOU (see #3 below) will give the exact number of leave days you are entitled to per your Cl B contract.



Correction:  It's two days leave for the first 30 days of class B, 1 day per 15 thereafter to a total of 24 per year - class Bs of under 30 days get PILL instead.



> 2) Be sure mbrs know that it is one pay sheet per pay period (i.e. 1st to 15th and 16th to 30th/31st) except in extenuating circumstances.  Sign them, have your supervisor (min one rank above you) sign, and submit it to the OR on your last working day of that pay period.



SOPs for submitting paysheets vary from unit to unit - make it clear to the troops that the way your unit handles the workflow is not necessarily the same as in the next unit they will be in.  In most Army units, paysheets will be put out for the start of any training activities.  It's the one-offs for taskings that cause headache, more often than not.



> 4) TD:  People on Class A can get TD, they will simply be put on Class B for the duration of their TD plus attributable leave days.



No.  Wrong.  Completely wrong.  You can go on TD on class A - I've done it frequently.  Travel status is not related to employment status.  Only if the period of employment is 14 days or more will you be placed on class B.



> Everyone is entitled to TD if sent away for military purposes.  Re: receiving money "within a couple of weeks of returning from a tasking"...this comment is a little misleading...the member has a responsibility to bring in his/her claim as soon as possible after returning from TD to the OR for processing.  There is a 30-day window for the finalization to be completed and money is received 5-7 days after being DFT'd to a member's bank account (and it should be noted that not all cashiers are on-the-ball with the clerks' DFT requests, so this can take longer than expected at times).  Incidentally, members will do better asking their OR clerks for any 'updates' in this regard vs. their CoC, who likely will have no clue.



Follow-up should go to both clerical staff and chain of command - clerical staff for the info; CoC to keep them informed so if the claim is delayed they can swing in at higher levels, if needed - and will have the trail of what transpired.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (27 Dec 2010)

Also don't forget the (very) rare CLASS A Route letter..... :stirpot:


----------



## FreeFloat (27 Dec 2010)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Only if the period of employment is 14 days or more will you be placed on class B.



Ahem..... 12 days.  Reference CMP 20/04 etc etc.  On the 13th consecutive day, the whole period MUST be converted over into Class B.  (I've seen it happen)


----------



## Celticgirl (27 Dec 2010)

> SOPs for submitting paysheets vary from unit to unit - make it clear to the troops that the way your unit handles the workflow is not necessarily the same as in the next unit they will be in.  In most Army units, paysheets will be put out for the start of any training activities.  It's the one-offs for taskings that cause headache, more often than not.



Seen.  I realized this when I read Brihard's post above.  In my unit, we have one pay sheet per two-week pay period.  I feel for the Army clerks now. lol



> No.  Wrong.  Completely wrong.  You can go on TD on class A - I've done it frequently.  Travel status is not related to employment status.  Only if the period of employment is 14 days or more will you be placed on class B.



What I meant to say is that it's not just people currently on Class B contracts who can receive TD, which was how I read one section in Brihard's document.  But yes, TD under 15 days would be Class A.  I haven't had to do any of those yet, so I do forget that point.  Thanks for the clarification.



> Follow-up should go to both clerical staff and chain of command - clerical staff for the info; CoC to keep them informed so if the claim is delayed they can swing in at higher levels, if needed - and will have the trail of what transpired.



My point here was simply that it's the clerks who can give you info on the claims themselves, so if you want to know why you haven't received your money or when you might expect to receive it, those are the people you will want to ask.  Point taken about the CoC being informed, but sometimes people are unrealistic about when they should be getting their money (i.e. the day after they drop off their claim) and I don't know that they need to keep going to their supervisors to update them...maybe if it's been more than 30 days and it appears nothing is happening.



			
				FreeFloat said:
			
		

> Ahem..... 12 days.  Reference CMP 20/04 etc etc.  On the 13th consecutive day, the whole period MUST be converted over into Class B.  (I've seen it happen)



At our unit, it is 14 days.  I assume this is at the discretion of our CO, but I will ask about it after the holidays.


----------



## brihard (27 Dec 2010)

I added the percentage figure for PILL, clarified the class B route letter/SOU =/= legal contract issue, added a paragraph about how annual leave works, and a few other little tweaks. I've split allowances into a new section, and added transportation assistance- do I have the term correct?

Here's the new version. I'll go back and update previous links.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (27 Dec 2010)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Here's the new version. I'll go back and update previous links.



This guide is the tits.
Having a resource like this primer would have saved me a ton of confusion & frustration, I'll tell you what.

I really hope this, (or something like it) finds it's way into the hands of new Reservists.


----------



## brihard (27 Dec 2010)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> This guide is the tits.
> Having a resource like this primer would have saved me a ton of confusion & frustration, I'll tell you what.
> 
> I really hope this, (or something like it) finds it's way into the hands of new Reservists.



It just friggin' astounds me that during the course of my basic training I received a formal lecture on how to shave my face, but not on how the pay system works. We're a military that seems to formalize the training of everything, no matter how inane, yet the troops are never taught about pay other than through word of mouth- and we all know how that goes. It ain't right.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (27 Dec 2010)

Brihard said:
			
		

> It just friggin' astounds me that during the course of my basic training I received a formal lecture on how to shave my face, but not on how the pay system works.



 :rofl: Too true!!! I'll never forget the demonstration on the "proper usage of soap for cleaning one's body".  "Circular motions, troops!"

Not that hygiene is unimportant, but I would like to think that one or two forty-minute chunks could be devoted to understanding the ins & outs of the pay system _before_ a bunch of issues rear their ugly heads.


----------



## FreeFloat (27 Dec 2010)

Awesome revision Brihard.  I love how you were able to distill my two pages of detailed blather into about a paragraph of concise "need to know."  And thanks for mentioning the "SOU =/= Contract" thing; it's difficult to get the word out against years of clerks' referring to all Class B's as "contracts" (until cutbacks occur and people are let go and the hue and cry begins...  "...but we have a CONTRACT!!")


----------



## ModlrMike (27 Dec 2010)

How things have changed. I distinctly remember getting lectures on pay and finances... but then again we have to carbon date my enrollment papers.


----------



## Biohazardxj (27 Dec 2010)

Folks I have been playing this game for a long time, and bitches and beefs are still the same.  I am a Reg Force clerk presently employed as the Chief Clerk of a reserve infantry unit.  Every fall I give the troops, Pte up to MCpl, an "idiot's guide to CF Pay"  I talk about uploads, and cut off dates and stuff like that.  It doesn't help.  The main reason is that we are dealing with kids, 17 to 20, who only parade once a week and every other weekend.  They don't remember this stuff when an issue arises.

The CFAOs clearly state that is the responsibility of the individual member to know what his or her pay and allowances should be.  Still, every January I will get a boat load of of people, Pte to Col, wanting to know why their pay dropped, forgetting EI just kicked in again.  But it doesn't matter it is still the clerks fault.

CDN Aviator - I spent many years with the Aurora community.  Went on many a TD with them, usually as the claim holder going to multiple countries with multiple currencies.  I just love Bulk Claims.   Never saw any need to change the rules just the attitude of the aircrew.  

80% for an advance on a TD claim is NOT A DND directive.  It is a Treasury Board directive.  The Treasury Board is a branch of the Federal Government and dictates policy to all government branches, including DND, as to how they are to manage their finances.

Another good rule was they no advance will be issued 48 prior to departure.  Case in point.  I was the cashier in ZX at the time, and this young Pte/Cpl wanted his $2000 advance off his claim 2 weeks prior to departure.  When I told him he had to wait until two days prior, his response to me was:  But I need to buy a car!

Yes, there are some bad clerks out there.  I know cuz I fired a couple.  Amalgamation didn't help either.   But the majority are not.  Believe it or not we are human and we do screw up from time to time.  But we do try hard to make sure all 24 pay cheques a year are correct, and that claims are finalized quickly and accurately.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (27 Dec 2010)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> The main reason is that we are dealing with kids, 17 to 20, who only parade once a week and every other weekend.  They don't remember this stuff when an issue arises.



I call supreme, ultimate, infinity, no take-backs bullsh!t. 

In my experience, a whole bunch of 17 to 20 year olds learned a whole mess of things in 7 weeks, including, (but not limited to):
rank structure, dress & deportment, C7 drills, field craft......etc, all while not hopelessly pissing ang poo-ing themselves.
Yeah, we _may_ have gotten a "fly-by" of when we'll get paid.....but in my experience, any pay issue was dealt with on a "suck it up" basis. 

I think maybe that's why Brihard made a really good primer....but what do I know....

I was 26 when I went on my PRes BMQ, and although there was a whole bunch of young fellas & gals, there was quite a few of us who were over 17-20, and realized that something was going on when we called our wives/husbands, and *they asked  *  where the hell the money was.

I didn't get any goddamn explanation as to when the money would come in and why it took so goddamn long (the 2-weeks rule). 
I dropped 30% of my civy pay to be able to do my full time BMQ, and was happy to do so, (I saw it as part of the deal.)

I knew I'd lose 25% off my gross, as I do in the civy world.

I don't buy the "young kids" excuse for a minute.

Shame on you. (finger wag)



			
				SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> Yes, there are some bad clerks out there.  I know cuz I fired a couple.  Amalgamation didn't help either.   But the majority are not.  Believe it or not we are human and we do screw up from time to time.  But we do try hard to make sure all 24 pay cheques a year are correct, and that claims are finalized quickly and accurately.



And there you have it.

There's a donkey in every stable, (and in every trade, I'm sure), but I'm literally _still paying_ for the screwups that I've experienced... but.....I GOT OUT IN 2009 FOR CHRIST'S SAKE....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

edit for a video that expresses my feeling (sans cardigan, of course)


----------



## High Lander (28 Dec 2010)

Interesting thread.  Common to much of the thread is the clerk bashing which is unfair but we, the collective we, tend to seek out the lowest common denominator to toss some blame at because it is easy.  Having commanded through the Reserves and having lengthy service on Class B/C I am au fait with the rules and guidelines and would like offer one other point of advice here.

Lost in all of this is the need to train leaders at all levels not only how the pay/claim system works but what exactly their responsibilities to their subordinates are.  In the old days, before we modularized training, there was time spent teaching Junior Officers about the pay system, with modularization came decisions to chop things out and the assumption was it would either be picked up on an "as you go" basis or would be covered in some form of "on-line training".  The responsibilities associated with taking care of one's subordinates should never be left to either of these avenues of training.  New soldiers, sailors or airmen have enough going on and someone in their face all of the time that learning about how you get paid gets lost.  Leaders are responsible to make sure you are paid, any good Officer or NCO stays on top of this and follows up on their subordinates pay problems.

The primer is a great idea and it can be enhanced by making sure the leaders know their responsibilities and how to solve their subordinates problems.  Best of luck.


----------



## Biohazardxj (28 Dec 2010)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> I call supreme, ultimate, infinity, no take-backs bullsh!t.



Really?  What are you? Two?


At 26 you had some life experience. I would hope you would know better.  I'm talking about young people in school or just graduated with out a schmik how the real world works.


----------



## Hammer Sandwich (28 Dec 2010)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> Really?  What are you? Two?
> 
> 
> At 26 you had some life experience. I would hope you would know better.  I'm talking about young people in school or just graduated with out a schmik how the real world works.



Y'know what, you're right. 

To hell with'em. Since some folks aren't going to be bright enough to pay attention to something like Brihard has come up with, screw 'em all. 

No point in even bothering trying to help them.
 :


----------



## Michael OLeary (28 Dec 2010)

Hammer Sandwich said:
			
		

> Y'know what, you're right.
> 
> To hell with'em. Since some folks aren't going to be bright enough to pay attention to something like Brihard has come up with, screw 'em all.
> 
> ...



If you're not willing to help with the intent of the thread, please refrain from posting in it.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## aesop081 (28 Dec 2010)

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> I just love Bulk Claims.



For me its the oposite. I truely hate them.



> Never saw any need to change the rules just the attitude of the aircrew.



The attitude of the aircrew ? Pardon ?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (28 Dec 2010)

This whole tangent regarding Reg Force (aircrew) claims is NOT part of what this thread is about, Cl A Reserve Pay.

Please start your own thread, take your discussion elswhere and quit derailing this one.


Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## PanaEng (28 Dec 2010)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I added the percentage figure for PILL, clarified the class B route letter/SOU =/= legal contract issue, added a paragraph about how annual leave works, and a few other little tweaks. I've split allowances into a new section, and added transportation assistance- do I have the term correct?
> 
> Here's the new version. I'll go back and update previous links.


Well done Brihard!
I'll review and comment if necessary - the wealth of knowledge and experience already looking at this thread will probably find any inaccuracy/omission way before I would notice anything - and I'll share it with my troops. We have great OR staff, but they are a busy bunch and the more troubleshooting we can do before we go to them the better.

Chimo!

Frank


----------



## JMesh (29 Dec 2010)

Brihard, I commend you on putting together such a great resource for new members. It is a complicated system (as many of the posts here show), and you have distilled it down to the basics that most members need to know.

One point that I noticed to fix though is on page 3, under Rank and IPC. Class A and Class B are both paid using the same daily rate. Class C is the pay calculated at a monthly rate

Edited to remove CCPS point on Class C (See msgs by NFLD Sapper; dapeterson)


----------



## Nfld Sapper (29 Dec 2010)

JMesh said:
			
		

> Brihard, I commend you on putting together such a great resource for new members. It is a complicated system (as many of the posts here show), and you have distilled it down to the basics that most members need to know.
> 
> One point that I noticed to fix though is on page 3, under Rank and IPC. Class A and Class B are both paid using the same daily rate. Class C is the pay calculated at a monthly rate, and it comes through CCPS rather than RPSR.



Depends I have been paid CLASS C (in Canada) via RPSR.........


----------



## JMesh (29 Dec 2010)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Depends I have been paid CLASS C (in Canada) via RPSR.........



I'll concede to you on that then, as I don't deal with Class C in my occupation. I made that point based on what I had read around the forums. Thank you for informing me. Nevertheless, Class B is based on the daily rate, and Class C on the monthly rate.


----------



## dapaterson (29 Dec 2010)

Class C: In Canada via RPSR, deployed overseas via CCPS.  Things like risk, hardship and tax-free status have only been programmed into CCPS.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (29 Dec 2010)

JMesh said:
			
		

> I'll concede to you on that then, as I don't deal with Class C in my occupation. *I made that point based on what I had read around the forums*. Thank you for informing me. Nevertheless, Class B is based on the daily rate, and Class C on the monthly rate.



Generally that is true.......

And to throw a wrench into it there is a little known/used CLASS C/A, basically was used for us during OP LAMA which meant we where getting full Reg Force pay but where considered to be on full time Reserve Service just like CLASS B/A. Collected full Reg Force pay broken down into daily amounts with 9% PILL added on top.....


----------



## brihard (30 Dec 2010)

Wow. How did I goof the daily rate/salary thing with Class B? Oops.

I fired thsi off to a buddy of mine going through his BMQ, and he seemed to think it covered things in a simple enough way. I think that with that last amendment this is just about at a point where I can get it proofread by my CoC, and deliver the training to my troops.

Thanks for all the help, all. Once I get a formally 'vetted' copy, I'll upload the final version and post the document for anyone else who may want to make us of it.


----------

