# Med Bag



## Matt_Fisher (24 Jul 2007)

We've had alot of requests to do a Medical Backpack.  Since I don't have any experience in casualty care above the individual first aid level, I'd like to open the floor to those in the CFMS field that have the appropriate relevant experience and would like to submit ideas and feedback on what they'd like to see in such a pack.

Either feel free to contribute your thoughts on this thread, or contact me by email or phone; matt@cpgear.com or 1-800-561-3040

Looking forward to your input!

Matt


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## Donut (25 Jul 2007)

Matt, I've been thinking of this topic for some time (about 15 years or so!!) and I'm not sure where to go with it...the variation between different medical missions, scopes of practice, duration of care, not to mention the individual medics themselves means you're biting off a pretty big chunk in trying to put this together.  We (HSS 1-08) have also been told that we will NOT be auth to carry our own bags or any non-issue medical stores.

I recall looking at the packs the Swiss "climbing doctors" carried (not sure if they still do) which was a pretty basic Klettersac-style pack (similar to the small pack in design), except that in addition to the top opening, opening with zippers down each side of the front to allow access to the various modules.  Modularity is the key, I think this is something most will agree with, although I know some from TFA 1-06 threw out their STOMP organizer bags as unnecessarily bulky.

Features I'd like to see?

TCCC stores (enough for 3-4 Pt) should be accessable without opening the main body of the pack.  Adequate room for a couple days worth of water, rats, ranger blanket/Bivi combination (when we're carrying our med bags, we don't have our 72 hr packs).  A pocket for one of the various light-weight collapsable/flexible stretchers (stingray or....brain fart...what's the other one in the system called?).  Modules that can be left in the LAV/Bison when not needed for minor wound care, sick parade, comfort drugs.

It needs to cinch down tight when partially full, balloon to a larger size as necessary.  The ability to slip an oxygen tank and regulator inside for non-cbt ops (as in the Pacific Emergency Products SAR packs) would be nice, too, thinking back to Op Peregrine.

I'm sure more features will come to mind, but I thought I'd get the ball rolling with some features.

DF


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## Armymedic (26 Jul 2007)

Preferences are as varied as the medics who carry them.

I will get back to you on a bag I found nearly perfect. Nearly because it was too large to carry just medical gear, but with a snugpak, 24 hrs food water batteries, it was not a bad size.


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## medaid (26 Jul 2007)

Draw pictures PMT, LOTS and LOTS of pictures. I find that often helps a bunch when trying to put ideas together to design something  ;D I'm happy with my CamelBak one. However, I was more then astonished and amazed by the Blackhawk that was carried by the one in 2VP. That bag carried allot of CRAP


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## Donut (26 Jul 2007)

MT, I'm pretty sure I know the bag the "2VP one" carried (STOMP II) , and it's not bad...for certain applications, but far too large for others, leading to the carriage of a lot of the aforementioned crap, and from what the troops told me, doesn't seem to cinch down terribly well when partially full, which leads to the load shifting on longer routes, improper load distribution, etc.

From the feedback I've gotten from 1 & 3-06, it took the majority of the dismounts virtually the whole deployment to find systems that worked for them under the various conditions, and some never found that "sweet spot" of a load.


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## medaid (26 Jul 2007)

True enough, however, it'll more then likely be like boots. Not ONE type that'll make everyone happy. Maybe we should pool some together, load a whole bunch of crap into em and hump em around for a few days. It's too bad that we don't have all the types available here. I'd be more then willing to hump bags around  ;D Hell... I'll even hump a bag while at work, just to prove that being a chairborneworrior at the moment can have it's contributions!  ;D


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## Donut (26 Jul 2007)

Last I saw, we had three or four different flavours of bag avail to us for 1-08, troops are trying them out during work-ups.

It's not just a matter of finding a bag that's comfy to pack around, we need to validate loads against likely tasks so the troops know what they'll need in their packs, and which pack to bring, for the various tasks.

The same bag a Bison-mounted medic likes is probably not what a dismount will need, and the equipment requirements are very different, too.


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## Armymedic (26 Jul 2007)

Blackhawk bags are really good for veh mounts, because medics can and do put too much stuff into them. The Camelback BFM is a good bag for dismounts, esp with the insert. But any 3 day style backpack can be converted into a pretty good medbag.


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## Donut (26 Jul 2007)

SMMT: Agreed on both counts, but if Matt wants to devote corporate time and effort to build the "perfect" dismount bag, I'm willing to put my .02 in, it may turn out to be MY "perfect" bag   ;D

We don't all have the resources you do!


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## medaid (26 Jul 2007)

maybe a visit to the SAR Tech bags is also needed. When I saw one last, it was a nice large comfortable pack with nice paded straps and support. It held everything a dismounted MedTech could need, all compartmentalized with large clear labels. It had drug kits all nice tucked away, trauma, yada yada yada. I think it will take lots of time to develop this said 'perfect' bag. 

Take all the existing bags, put em together and start going through the likes and don't likes list from people. Gather the goods, take a look at which one showed the more promise, and then base a new pack off of that. 

PMT, I've got a BFM no MedPak insert for now, but that's easily remedied. Let me know and you can take it for your research.


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## Matt_Fisher (26 Jul 2007)

I appreciate the feedback and discussion that this is generating.  Pattern sketches of the ideal layout are definitely helpful.  I don't think the 'perfect' med bag exists or ever will exist, as it's been stated, user preferences are all different, technology changes constantly, so the equipment going into the bag is constantly changing, and the difference in roles, i.e. veh. mounted vs. dismounted, etc. will result in different configurations.


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## Farmboy (26 Jul 2007)

Not to hijack Matts thread (to late I know   ) but we have some of CTOMS new Medical Back Packs on order.

These include the Patent Pending MARS system.  This allows the user to put what they want, where they want it.  There has also been significant input from medics that have taken the TacMed pre-deployment course in Suffield.   It will have features that are significantly different, other than the MARS that don’t exists on any pack out there yet, and it will solve the medics problem of personalization, mission specific packing etc.  I have also given feedback from what clients have been telling me from what works and what doesn't overseas.

There have been a few reviews of the MARS system on Lightfighter and a couple other boards.


 For the topic at hand though, we had some clients use the TAG basic medical pack in Astan and they loved it.  As heard, others like Blackhawk or other makes. Personal preference once again.


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## Armymedic (28 Jul 2007)

The TAG medical pack is a knock off of a more expensive and better build model from London Bridge. The LBT version is what those operators from Virgina Beach use. Not a bad bag, and it has all the good features one would want for a med pack....

except once you get the gear in you need, there is just enough room for water and not much else.

But who really needs food or warm clothing?


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## Farmboy (28 Jul 2007)

More expensive yes, better built, I would very much disagree.

If you need more room go with the Advanced pack  ;D


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## Matt_Fisher (28 Jul 2007)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> The TAG medical pack is a knock off of a more expensive and better build model from London Bridge. The LBT version is what those operators from Virgina Beach use. Not a bad bag, and it has all the good features one would want for a med pack....
> 
> except once you get the gear in you need, there is just enough room for water and not much else.
> 
> But who really needs food or warm clothing?



I think what SMMT is referring to here is that in terms of capacity, the LBT pack or TAG version leaves no room for anything other than medical equipment, which I've been told from a variety of sources in the med field, is a major shortcoming of most purpose built medic bags.


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## Armymedic (28 Jul 2007)

Farmboy said:
			
		

> More expensive yes, better built, I would very much disagree.



I would expect you would, as it is one of the products you sell.

And yes, I was refering to the other things a soldier needs other than his medic kit.


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## medaid (8 Aug 2007)

So is anything coming from this yet? I'll be quite interested to see what comes out as a result of this


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## Matt_Fisher (8 Aug 2007)

There's going to be a two part system, either of which can work independent of the other.  I'm going to leave it at that for the moment to keep the tease/shiny thing factor still going...for a little while yet until I've got a working prototype.


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## Dr.Cyanide (31 Aug 2007)

I don't know how terribly pertinent my input is, but I do have a fair interest in this topic.

My background:  I am one of the GDMO's in Edmonton.  Been in the uniform for a year and a bit, no overseas taskings/tours as of yet.  I have been issued the STOMP II and....as you all have mentioned, I find it to be more of a useless CRAP glutton than a streamlined extension of my SKILLZ  .  I am also an avid backpacker and so have some wisdom to gather from there, if not from tour experience.

So, first, a disclaimer.....my task as an MO is probably going to be drastically different from anyone taking a field medic role.  My Medical Bag is basically to allow me to stock a facility while its getting established.  Be that a UMS, BMS; or possibly a helicopter during field exercise.  Once the facility is established for its current tasking, my need for a Medical Bag should become almost irrelevant.

But, to get on with my thoughts.

Yes, the ideal bag would be modular, at different levels of the complexity of the thing.

First, it must integrate both medical space and "living space".  The living space probably would go best on the top of the bag (for reasons I will point out shortly).  So, it probably should take on a general concept of the 64 Jump Bag to begin with.  True, if you were to make the "universal bag" it would probably be too large....so we have to make some assumptions.  Looking at the combat intensive missions that have been executed over the last x number of years, it would seem in my unresearched opinion, that we tend towards warmer climates (at least not the arctic).  Coming up with a standard "personal kit" list that reflected that would put you at a starting load size for the "living space" compartment.  Divide this into a Pack Body and a Valise to keep things familiar and include a number of attachment points to allow for external pockets to be firmly attached to allow medics to include some extras they need to keep sanity (or to attach a "cold weather" pouch to include more compressed clothes).  Take some modern approaches to load distribution and compression methods to turn this into one solid singularly-moving unit.

Now for the Medical Space of the system.  It should be to the bottom, and be rigged in such a way that it can be snuggly attached to the bottom of the "living space", can be dropped right off the pack altogether, or can swing around to the front of the medic so they can access items from it without necessarily taking the pack off, and then can be carried in the front (as a waist bag or chest bag?!?!), or can be swung back behind.

Now, the materials for the pack should be "military" tough, but should be pretty light-weight....afterall....there is alot of stuff to carry already.  Moving towards a medium weight silicone impregnated ripstop nylon would be good for both main parts of the system.

As for the internal modularization of the "medical space", I would suggest moving to a silicone impregnated 1.1 oz ripstop nylon....incredibly tough for its weight and see through...which will help locate items quickly.

As for what modules to include, what sizes and how much variability....that now needs some sort of research to find out the frequency of injuries/illnesses encountered, weighted by their relative severity/importance.  Then, you can figure out the likelihood that a particular injury/illness will occur over the length of a tour/daily tasking/expiry duration for medical supplies.  Once you come up with your short list of what needs to be treated, then you can create your equipment/supplies lists....organize them into categories and then design modules to meet the needs of the categories.  Eg: the airway module would have a oral-pharyngeal airways, nasopharyngeal airways, laryngoscope, proper blades and backup batteries, ETT tubes of appropriate sizes, bougies, stylets, lidocaine spay, limited number of syringes and sedation drugs, as well as some type of portable/collapsible bag-valve-mask assembly, and a compacted trach kit.  At least that is what my airway module would look like (and I am a doc, not a medic so my wants are probably quite different).  Then, within the module, you design the order/spacing of the items so that it can be maximally compressed with straps directly on the outside shell of the module.

From there, you then need to design the most logical way to organize the different modules (eg airway module easy to get to, and near to the ACLS module, but not in the way of what might be considered a TCCC module; the TCCC module items might best be served by being in external pockets on the "medical space" subsystem of the whole bag system.

But, I could ramble all day....

 Maybe, if this is considered a good direction to go....

It might be worthwhile fueling a discussion of the items different medics carry in their current bags, what items they wish they could get in there and what conditions they find they treat most often/most importantly.  From there the modular categorization might begin.

Well thats what I got to contribute.

Dr. Cyanide


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## Matt_Fisher (11 Oct 2007)

Update here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/57155/post-626004.html#msg626004


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## medaid (11 Oct 2007)

Matt,

   Do you have any pictures?


EDIT: I just realized that this was one 1,000 post! WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!! I was hoping to save it for something important... :'(


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## Matt_Fisher (11 Oct 2007)

No pics for public (or competitor  ;D) release at this time.  Those lucky few who are up in Pet will be the first to lay their eyes on this thing next week.


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## medaid (11 Oct 2007)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> No pics for public (or competitor  ;D) release at this time.  Those lucky few who are up in Pet will be the first to lay their eyes on this thing next week.



LOL fine! Be that way! No no, just personal curiosity that's all   I've got the CamelBak med insert for my BFG just wanted to see how different it was.

That's okay 

Cheerios!


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## DiverMedic (30 Jan 2008)

MT, I was recently looking at the BFM with Med insert as my med bag for Texas and then overseas.  I'm currently mounted, but there is always the chance of that changing.  What is your view of it?  Anything that you would change or any other pack that you wish you would have gotten?


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## Matt_Fisher (30 Jan 2008)

Update here...Med Bags are finally in production.  They will be online in the next 2 weeks.  

SMMT, a new sample bag along with that other piece of kit we discussed are enroute.


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## Armymedic (30 Jan 2008)

cool, thanks.


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## Armymedic (31 Jan 2008)

DiverMedic said:
			
		

> MT, I was recently looking at the BFM with Med insert as my med bag for Texas and then overseas.  I'm currently mounted, but there is always the chance of that changing.



Mounted until you get to the area of the cas....

Guys like the CamelBak BFM with and without the insert. It is a all round good bag. But its not a med bag. The Camelbak med insert is pretty small, and really only holds the essential (ok if thats all you need). If you are getting that tan SO Tech bag issued, you can use the inserts from that inside the BFM as well. The bonus of the BFM is that is you got a med bag, you still got a good bladder carrying backpack.


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## cdn031 (11 Feb 2008)

Matt_Fisher said:
			
		

> Update here...Med Bags are finally in production.  They will be online in the next 2 weeks.



Matt
Saw the "new" TCCC Bags go up on your site this week
1) is the "Baby" pouch on the bottom for CATs? (Better photos please! ;D)
2) Are we going to see the Med backback soon?

All th best!


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