# HMCS Athabaskan



## The Bread Guy

This from MERX:





> .... The Department of National Defence has a requirement for a refit of HMCS ATHABASKAN, an IROQUOIS Class Destroyer based in Halifax, Nova Scotia. It is anticipated that the refit work will commence April 2012 with a completion date of December 2012.  Issuance of the Invitation to Tender (ITT) is scheduled for July 2011.
> 
> Pre-Qualification of bidders will occur prior to the issuance of the ITT documentation.
> 
> Only companies that meet all mandatory requirements as shown on the attached Global Rating Guide will be invited to submit a Tender for the refit of HMCS ATHABASKAN. Verification of the requirements may be conducted at the discretion of the Crown ....


A bit more detail in the attachment.

Also, some broader discussion on "New replacements for HMCS Iroquois, HMCS Algonquin and HMCS Athabaskan?" here.


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## jollyjacktar

That will go, IMO to Irving, as usual.... :


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Another long refit in 2012! What a beautiful 40th anniversary gift for the old girl.

Would you give your mother a face lift as her 80th anniversary gift? I wouldn't. Isn't this the same?

And if they give her such a refit, they are planning on keeping her around at least another 5 years. How much more service can this nation ask from the old girl.

However, mark my words: This refit may start on time, but it will stretch way past the deadline for return to service and will cost huge extras because they will find tons of extra work required on her hull and on many other pieces  of equipment that are subject to stress and fatigue.


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## Ex-Dragoon

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Another long refit in 2012! What a beautiful 40th anniversary gift for the old girl.
> 
> Would you give your mother a face lift as her 80th anniversary gift? I wouldn't. Isn't this the same?
> 
> And if they give her such a refit, they are planning on keeping her around at least another 5 years. How much more service can this nation ask from the old girl.
> 
> However, mark my words: This refit may start on time, but it will stretch way past the deadline for return to service and will cost huge extras because they will find tons of extra work required on her hull and on many other pieces  of equipment that are subject to stress and fatigue.



DND will realize one of these days you cannot keep trying to suck water out of stones.


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## RC

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> DND will realize one of these days you cannot keep trying to suck water out of stones.



Apologies in advance for the mixed metaphors, but isn't DND, with missions to undertake and no replacement in the books, rather stuck between a stone and a hard place?


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## Sigs Pig

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> That will go, IMO to Irving, as usual.... :



Maybe Davie Yards will bid (and get it) they are only a stones throw away.... 

ME


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## The Bread Guy

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> DND will realize one of these days you cannot keep trying to suck water out of stones.


One hopes....


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## chrisf

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Would you give your mother a face lift as her 80th anniversary gift? I wouldn't. Isn't this the same?



Put it to tender, get yourself a new mother...


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## Pat in Halifax

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Put it to tender, get yourself a new mother...


Ha Ha!!
Actually, two HAL class (TOR and STJ) did their DWPs at NEWDOCK in St John's in 2000. I was on TOR and the only issue was a Navy imposed time constraint to get the ship home for Christmas. I think HSL will be a "little busy' in 2012. 
Not sure how this will pan out. I have never sailed on the class but suspect she will need substantially more than the proverbial coat of paint.


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## jollyjacktar

She is one of the girls my team looks after.  Yes, she is tired and will need more than a lick of paint.  As much as I like older women, they really do need to get the finger out of the orifice and do something, anything about the next generation.  It won't be for me, but for the guys/gals who come after me.


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## ekpiper

Well, on the plus side, I may actually be lucky enough to serve on a 280 when I finish university and Phase Training in 2013!  If she ever comes out of refit, that is.  Varied training platforms should be a plus!

I don't know when the government will realize that refitting 40-year-old ships gets far less value than purchasing new vessels in a timely manner, but they've already done this with Protecteur and Preserver.

Also interesting is whether IRO and ALG will get the same treatment, or if we're going to be left with one 280 serving the fleet.  Perhaps IRO, being the oldest of the 4 will be the next to be decommissioned.


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## Edward Campbell

ekpiper said:
			
		

> Well, on the plus side, I may actually be lucky enough to serve on a 280 when I finish university and Phase Training in 2013!  If she ever comes out of refit, that is.  Varied training platforms should be a plus!
> 
> I don't know when *the government will realize that refitting 40-year-old ships gets far less value than purchasing new vessels in a timely manner*, but they've already done this with Protecteur and Preserver.
> 
> Also interesting is whether IRO and ALG will get the same treatment, or if we're going to be left with one 280 serving the fleet.  Perhaps IRO, being the oldest of the 4 will be the next to be decommissioned.




The Navy and DND and, indeed, the whole government does *know* all that but defence spending ranks right down there with symphony orchestras and opera houses on Canadians' list of spending priorities, and *politicians* - who tell government how much (or little) it can spend on this, that and the other thing - respond to Canadians' _desires_, however ill-informd and wasteful they may be.

Don't blame government: look in the mirror, and a Mom and Dad and Aunt Florence and the next-door neighbours and at the girlfriend's parents; they, not government, are the ones who say refit a 40 year old DDH rather than implementing a coherent national shipbuilding strategy.


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## ekpiper

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> The Navy and DND and, indeed, the whole government does *know* all that but defence spending ranks right down there with symphony orchestras and opera houses on Canadians' list of spending priorities, and *politicians* - who tell government how much (or little) it can spend on this, that and the other thing - respond to Canadians' _desires_, however ill-informd and wasteful they may be.
> 
> Don't blame government: look in the mirror, and a Mom and Dad and Aunt Florence and the next-door neighbours and at the girlfriend's parents; they, not government, are the ones who say refit a 40 year old DDH rather than implementing a coherent national shipbuilding strategy.



Yes, E.R. Campbell,  I'm sure that you are right.  The issue was addressed to an extent with the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy, but the process is still painfully slow, and as you say, the money just isn't there.  I wonder if some kind of show promoting the Navy and it's actions would help boost the public image for the Navy; Something along the lines of Sea Patrol for the Austrailians.


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## Edward Campbell

As I read the polls, and I've been wrong plenty of times in the past, we you the CF enjoyed a brief flurry of public support for more spending from _circa_ 2003 until about last year; now "support" for the military has fallen back to its normal level - about the same as the public's support for ballet and the opera.

Despite all the red T-shirts and Don Cherry's rantings, Canadian public support for the military is, always, a mile wide but only an inch deep (1.6 km and 2.5 cm, respectively).


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## Oldgateboatdriver

I agree E.R.C.

But the unfortunate fact is that where defence spending is concerned, our politicians are incompetent salespersons. They just do not know how to properly present things and put them in proper perspective. 

They present the defence spending as if it was new programs for everyone's benefit. Present all the following in the same way: "Today, we are introducing a new national day care program - free daycare for all Canadian's, that will involve an investment of 20 B$"; "Our government will beat this recession with a $30 B$ new investment in municipal infrastructure!"; or, "Today, we have contracted for the purchase of 65 new F-35 jetfighters at a cost of 19 B$, because we believe in a strong Canada."

I too would be livid to think the government would want to spend that much EXTRA money in one shot!

Compare to this presentation:

" Good morning everyone. As you know, our government is dedicated to maintaining a strong national defence for Canada. Our fleet of CF-18 fighter jets, which have served, and are still serving Canada well, is coming soon to the end of its usefull life. We must therefore provide for its replacement. I am happy to announce that we have contracted for the acquisition of 65 F-35 jetfighters for that purpose. This programme has an expected cost of 19 B$ over its full life cycle of 30 years. We expect costs of  a few hundred millions in most year, with annual expenditures around 1.5 B$ in the five years where the program will be at its peak. As this funding will come out of the annual capital acquisition budget of DND - since it will be that program's turn at its lion's share - we only expect an extra increase in defence spending of approximately 1 and 1/2 percent in those five peak years. Any questions?"

I think Canadians would have no problem with this second scenario.


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## The Bread Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> " Good morning everyone. As you know, our government is dedicated to maintaining a strong national defence for Canada. Our fleet of CF-18 fighter jets, which have served, and are still serving Canada well, is coming soon to the end of its usefull life. We must therefore provide for its replacement. I am happy to announce that we have contracted for the acquisition of 65 F-35 jetfighters for that purpose. This programme has an expected cost of 19 B$ over its full life cycle of 30 years. We expect costs of  a few hundred millions in most year, with annual expenditures around 1.5 B$ in the five years where the program will be at its peak. As this funding will come out of the annual capital acquisition budget of DND - since it will be that program's turn at its lion's share - we only expect an extra increase in defence spending of approximately 1 and 1/2 percent in those five peak years. Any questions?"
> 
> I think Canadians would have no problem with this second scenario.


Another problem:  even if that's what the politicians say, how much of that do you think ends up on TV/radio/in the paper?  I would hope most of it, but no guarantees...


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## Oldgateboatdriver

ekpiper said:
			
		

> Well, on the plus side, I may actually be lucky enough to serve on a 280 when I finish university and Phase Training in 2013!  If she ever comes out of refit, that is.  Varied training platforms should be a plus!



You know, Ekiper, I think we should make a rule: When more than 75% of a ship's company had not yet been born when the ship commissioned originally, the ship should be retired from service.


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## Edward Campbell

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> You know, Ekiper, I think we should make a rule: When more than 75% of a ship's company had not yet been born when the ship commissioned originally, the ship should be retired from service.




Good idea, generally ... but there are exceptions that prove your good rule:






HMS Victory - still in commission.


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## CombatDoc

ekpiper said:
			
		

> I wonder if some kind of show promoting the Navy and it's actions would help boost the public image for the Navy; Something along the lines of Sea Patrol for the Austrailians.


Although not a television program the Navy did, in fact, put on some kind of show to promote its relevance to Canadians.  IIRC it was called the Naval Centennial and was held for an entire year in 2010.  They even invited some special guests to the celebration, such as ships from foreign navies and Queen Elizabeth.  It didn't seem to do much to increase public support for our "over the horizon" (perhaps synonymous with "out of sight, out of mind") branch of the CF.


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## The Bread Guy

A bit more time for interested vendors, and a bit more information, in the attached bid document update.


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## kratz

Are these offers are race to the rusty bottom? I can not stop asking in my late cynicism for these old gals.


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## alexj.forum

What is Athabaskan's type of Refit. Is it like the TRUMP done in the 90's ?


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## Ex-Dragoon

alexj.forum said:
			
		

> What is Athabaskan's type of Refit. Is it like the TRUMP done in the 90's ?



Nothing quite that major....nor willl the 280s have anything that major again.


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## sirux0r

HMCS Athabaskan...
Where is the shore office for that ship located?


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## TN2IC

In HRM...


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## Pat in Halifax

I think the OP means the Shore Office as she is in (or going into) a DWP in Port Weller. Someone on here from Halifax can probably answer. I would be guessing (and probably badly at that!) but D125 rings a bell from my foggy memory.


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## TN2IC

Shh... OPSEC...


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## sirux0r

I was posted to Halifax and have no clue as to where to go to get to my ship's shore office. Like should I go to the Halifax Naval base and just ask a commissionaire or is it outside Halifax?


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## Pat in Halifax

I got most of that info from an archived Chronicle Herald article!!

Go to the Main Gate (Dockyard) and ask where Athabee's Shore Office is - Commissionaires will know.
If still unsure, PM me, I know their EO (ex PO2 stoker, ex submariner)

NOTE: Athabaskan is still in Halifax Harbour.


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## sirux0r

Thought it was suppose to be off to Ontario for refit?


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## jollyjacktar

sirux0r said:
			
		

> Thought it was suppose to be off to Ontario for refit?


Soon.


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## Stoker

Next to D20, right across from admirals gate.


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## sirux0r

If the ship is there, I might as well go report at the ship on thursday instead of the office or I don't know if it matters?
Thanks guys for the responses.


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## MSEng314

sirux0r said:
			
		

> If the ship is there, I might as well go report at the ship on thursday instead of the office or I don't know if it matters?
> Thanks guys for the responses.



They won't be there Thursday, so you had best go to the shore office.


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## sirux0r

MSEng314 said:
			
		

> They won't be there Thursday, so you had best go to the shore office.



Thanks for the heads up MS,


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## Civvymedic

Hello,

I have read in a local media report here in Ontario that HMCS Athabaskan is in need of an urgent tow out of Lake Ontario and back to Halifax before the canal freezes over. I am curious as to why she cant proceed under her own power. The article didn't state why the tow was required. 

I am not sure if I am able to re post the article here.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

_Mod edit to remove link in accordance with site policy._

I would not necessarily read too much into this.

It can be anything from: the refit is done but we don't have a crew to rapidly put together and go get her, or we don't want to hire a civilian crew just to drive her back to  Halifax,or  all the way to something went wrong in the refit and it wont be completed on time so lets get her out of the lakes before freeze up and finish her off in Halifax.


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## Civvymedic

Thanks for moving this and for the reply. Happy to see a refit has been completed and she is heading back to Halifax. Maybe I will see her pass by my house on her transit.


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## Navy_Pete

Seeing as the engines haven't been turned on since March, this seems like a good plan B to get the ship back to Halifax before the canal and seaway closes for the winter, the old adage of 'plan for the worst, hope for the best' would apply.

This is probably a lot less awkard then not having anything in place in case of, and then scrambling come 1 Dec if things go pear shaped.

Odds are good you'll get to watch her sail by on her own steam, looking much nicer after the fresh coats of paint!


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## kratz

This news report by the Chronicle Herald:




> HMCS Athabaskan needs a tow
> November 19, 2012 - 4:10am By THE CHRONICLE HERALD
> 
> Ottawa is looking for someone to give one of its destroyers a tow.
> 
> Last spring, the HMCS Athabaskan headed to St. Catharines, Ont., for a refit, but she’s coming home, apparently before the work is finished.
> 
> The federal government’s public tendering website,
> 
> MERX.com, is advertising for someone to tow the ship back home to HMC Dockyard in Halifax. In February, Ottawa announced the $21.7-million refit had been awarded to Seaway Marine and Industrial Inc., which had from April to November to get the job done.
> 
> The Iroquois class vessel was commissioned in 1972.The refit is part of the ship’s regular five-year maintenance cycle.
> 
> The successful bidder will have from Dec. 1 until the St. Lawrence Seaway closes for the season to bring the Athasbaskan home.


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## Navy_Pete

There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings with how refits work.   There is actually three phases;

Extended Working Period (EWP) 1 - preps the ship for the docking, gets all the comms/weapon systems off for repair, and takes all the crews gear off

Contractor Docking phase - all docking critical work done (paint, fix hull valves, etc) plus work on other mechanical systems (replace valves, pumps, other stuff that is hard to get at)

EWP2- comms/weapons put back on, misc 2nd line work completed

So there is always another 4-6months after the ship gets back from the yard before it's ready to go start all the trials, and always work left to get finished.  This one is a little different as it doesn't just get pulled across the harbour.


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## Ziobrop

Shipfax is reporting that the tow line parted today setting HMCS Athabaskan adrift of Scatrie Island, where the M/V Miner is grounded on shore.

Athabaskan was towed into Sydney by the backup tug Andre H, and is reported to be safe, though damaged.

Halifaxshippingnews.ca will be aggregating all reports at http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/2012/12/athabaskan-tow-troubles.html?m=1


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## jollyjacktar

Man, she doesn't deserve shitty service like this.  More work for FMF I suppose.   :not-again:


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## observor 69

Apparently some damage was done to the ship says the Halifax CBC evening news at the 2.42 minute mark:


http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Canada/NS/ID/2322699158/


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## Stoker

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Apparently some damage was done to the ship says the Halifax CBC evening news at the 2.42 minute mark:
> 
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Canada/NS/ID/2322699158/



Yes she sustained a number of hull perforations and some dents at the bow. I would say quite a repair bill. She's sitting along side now in North Sydney without power or shore services waiting for weather to improve.  I would imagine some repairs will have to be made before she can safely proceed to Halifax.


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## Navy_Pete

Aside from the photos on shifax, does anyone know if there are any others posted on flickr etc?  Curious what kind of damage happened.


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## Stoker

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Aside from the photos on shifax, does anyone know if there are any others posted on flickr etc?  Curious what kind of damage happened.



None that I could find. The holes seem to pretty serious, perhaps some structural damage. I imagine the Navy will be sending people to inspect the damage.


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## Eye In The Sky

Who foots the bill in a case like this?


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## Stoker

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Who foots the bill in a case like this?



Hard to say the Navy didn't have custody of the vessel but the tow agreement may absolve any responsibility from the towing company. I would say the Navy is going to end of paying as it was a storm and thus an act of god.

Imagine if someone other than the tow company managed to get on board before they reestablished the tow, I think they could claim salvage rights.


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## Eye In The Sky

Rgr tks. It could have been a lot worse I guess.


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## dapaterson

What is the current plan for the retirement of the Iroquois class destroyers?  Might this damage change those plans, and see her removed from service?


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## Stoker

dapaterson said:
			
		

> What is the current plan for the retirement of the Iroquois class destroyers?  Might this damage change those plans, and see her removed from service?



Obviously I can't speak for the Navy, but I would imagine that it'll get repaired as many millions have been sunk into the refit and she will be a designated training platform eventually. Your right though that it doesn't help things and it could of been much much worse.


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## Pat in Halifax

dapaterson said:
			
		

> What is the current plan for the retirement of the Iroquois class destroyers?  Might this damage change those plans, and see her removed from service?


I wouldn't jump to that conclusion at all. We do not know the full extent of damage but if it is limited to hull punctures and the like, that is repairable. Considering what was just done to her in Port Wellar, it would not make any sence to pack it in now. 
It most definately will be however, very interesting to see what happens next.

BTW the plan for the class's retirement has been made though I don't think it has been made public yet.

Pat


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## Navy_Pete

Thanks Chief Stoker, didn't see any photos either except that one.

Damage actually didn't look too bad; in the grand scheme even worse case of having to replace some of the stiffeners as well as hull plating itself will be the easy part.  Pulling out and putting back all the interference items behind and redoing the paint will actually take just as long if not longer then the welding itself.  So unless there is additional damage below the waterline (doubtful, as the tugs all have those old tractor tires around the sides for clearance, hence the paint gone on the boot top)  

Normally there is 6 months after the docking to complete the refit work anyway (put weapons, comms etc back onboard) so might not even delay the normal tiered readiness program.

Think all these contracts have a standard insurance clause, so in theory should be covered (for a change).  But like all good insurance companies, probably not going to just hand over sacks of money.  Can see it turning out more like this;  :argument:


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## cupper

This may be a dumb question but:

Is it normal to not have any sort of crew on board during the tow?


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## Pat in Halifax

cupper said:
			
		

> This may be a dumb question but:
> 
> Is it normal to not have any sort of crew on board during the tow?



No, it is not. (normal to have *NO* crew on board during a transit like this)


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## Colin Parkinson

With any luck the towers insurance will have to cover the damages.


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## Navy_Pete

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> No, it is not. (normal to have *NO* crew on board during a transit like this)



There is no 'normal' for something like this, going from the Welland canal, Lake Ontario, numerous locks, St. Lawrence, the gulf, then the North Atlantic isn't comparable to getting pulled across the harbour.  That's like comparing apples to rocks (ie not even a different kind of fruit).

Believe it was being towed as a dead barge (ie no power, heat etc) so it would not have been habitable.  Having it blacked out and unmanned actually decreases the risk in a way, as there is no way to have a fire from a generator or any other of the high powered electrical equipment, which is probably more likely then having a tug boat break down, considering full system tests hadn't been finished after extensive work being done.

Guess this is kind of like towing your car after a breakdown, then having the tow truck get in a fender bender.... the unlikely worst case scenarios have to happen once in a while!  Like that insurance commercial, where they were two suits giving percentages for likelyhood of fender benders etc to alien abduction, and it went from 0.000034% to 100% after a little green guy in a van snatched someone off the street, only in this case it's more embarrassing then funny.


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## Stoker

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> There is no 'normal' for something like this, going from the Welland canal, Lake Ontario, numerous locks, St. Lawrence, the gulf, then the North Atlantic isn't comparable to getting pulled across the harbour.  That's like comparing apples to rocks (ie not even a different kind of fruit).
> 
> Believe it was being towed as a dead barge (ie no power, heat etc) so it would not have been habitable.  Having it blacked out and unmanned actually decreases the risk in a way, as there is no way to have a fire from a generator or any other of the high powered electrical equipment, which is probably more likely then having a tug boat break down, considering full system tests hadn't been finished after extensive work being done.
> 
> Guess this is kind of like towing your car after a breakdown, then having the tow truck get in a fender bender.... the unlikely worst case scenarios have to happen once in a while!  Like that insurance commercial, where they were two suits giving percentages for likelyhood of fender benders etc to alien abduction, and it went from 0.000034% to 100% after a little green guy in a van snatched someone off the street, only in this case it's more embarrassing then funny.



Its also a liability issue to not have anyone on board, if something happens and there were Navy personnel on board it would probably affect the liability the tow company has for the damages.


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## The Bread Guy

.... via The Canadian Press:


> A navy destroyer moored in Cape Breton has been damaged and was set adrift while under tow after problems arose with repair work carried out at an Ontario dockyard, the military said Thursday.
> 
> HMCS Athabaskan drifted for several hours off Scatarie Island on Friday after the tow line broke, said Capt. Doug Kierstead of the Royal Canadian Navy in Halifax.
> 
> Kierstead said there is damage to the hull behind the ship's identifying numbers, though he declined to say what the damage was and how it came about.
> 
> ``At this point all I can say is that we are aware that there is damage visible,'' Kierstead said in an interview.
> 
> He said the vessel was supposed to have undergone a routine refit by the end of November last year and was expected to be capable of sailing after that work was completed at Seaway Marine and Industrial Inc. in Welland, Ont.
> 
> But Kierstead said the ship couldn't return to Halifax without assistance due to maintenance delays and other problems.
> 
> ``The reason why Athabaskan is not returning under her own power is because there have been delays in some of the required maintenance and further unforeseen maintenance required,'' he said.
> 
> He said the ship will remain in Sydney harbour until the hull damage has been assessed and officers determine how to safely return it to Halifax to complete the refit and repair the latest damage ....


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## Eye In The Sky

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/01/02/ns-hmcs-athabaskan-damage.html

I don't know much about towing, but having a hard time figuring out how that happened unless the towing tender tried to get alongside her?

Almost everytime I read comments on CBC stories, I wish there was a way to reach thru the Internet and crack someone.   :facepalm:


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## jollyjacktar

The damage is above the water line, at least in the photo on CBC.  That's not so bad as it could have been.  Won't be hard to patch that up when she comes home.  Won't be cheap but not difficult for the plate shop to accomplish at FMF.  As the Black Knight said,  "Tis but a scratch!".


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## Eye In The Sky

Ack.  Would it not likely be from the towing vessel coming along side her in rough seas and mashing into her once to twice?  I'm trying to imagine a tow line letting go and snapping back in a way that would do that damage and my brain doesn't see how.


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## Stoker

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/01/02/ns-hmcs-athabaskan-damage.html
> 
> I don't know much about towing, but having a hard time figuring out how that happened unless the towing tender tried to get alongside her?
> 
> Almost everytime I read comments on CBC stories, I wish there was a way to reach thru the Internet and crack someone.   :facepalm:



Most likely when she separated the tow they most likely put the tug on her sideways to keep her off the rocks and damaged the plates.

I was as well looking at the comments on the CBC web site, I was waiting for "Why do we have a Navy" post, didn't have to wait for long  Quite a few blamed Harper and Mackay, like its their fault.


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## TwoTonShackle

If I was a betting man I'd say:

1- the damage at the bow was from the tow line, (either before or after it separated);

2- the damage at the boot topping was the tug trying to keep it from drifting; and

3- the perforations in the hull behinds the number was from a 2nd ship, (possibly the Coast Guard) getting people onto the ATH to re-attach the tow line.  

Seeing as though tugs are normally fendered from bow to stern and back and that they have a low freeboard I doubt the tug pierced the hull.


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## Occam

TwoTonShackle said:
			
		

> 3- the perforations in the hull behinds the number was from a 2nd ship, (possibly the Coast Guard) getting people onto the ATH to re-attach the tow line.



Not likely, since the pers required to reconnect the towing hawser were transferred to ATH by Cormorant (via several news sources).


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## cupper

Occam said:
			
		

> Not likely, since the pers required to reconnect the towing hawser were transferred to ATH by Cormorant (via several news sources).



Flying low and pitched over? ;D


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## winnipegoo7

Occam said:
			
		

> Not likely, since the pers required to reconnect the towing hawser were transferred to ATH by Cormorant (via several news sources).



Perhaps there was an attempt to board ATH, but the attempt failed and then the Cormorant was used?

Edited to add:
This site is usually pretty good. He has three or four posts on the incident, but he only has guesses as to what happened.
http://shipfax.blogspot.ca/


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## Navy_Pete

Sure there will be some kind of official investigation once the ship is back.  Doubt much is happening during the xmas leave period other then that.

The PA seems to be wandering off the previous script though...


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## Lineman

Just some observations from the CBC and Shipfax photos; There's blue paint rubs on the hull near the puncture and the tug docked at Sydney is coloured the same blue..


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## Eye In The Sky

Article Link

HMCS Athabaskan repair bill rose by $5M, says shipyard 

Iroquois-class destroyer damaged later during trip to Nova Scotia


The shipyard that did refit work on a navy warship before it was damaged while returning to Halifax says the repair bill had already cost $5 million more than expected before the vessel left its dock.

The Defence Department announced last February that Seaway Marine Inc. of St. Catharines, Ont., was awarded a $21.7 million contract to repair HMCS Athabaskan as part of a scheduled refit. The company was contracted to repair air pressure systems and firefighting and deck equipment, as well as strip, repair and repaint the underwater portion of the hull.

But Charles Payne, the company's president, said inspectors discovered more rust and damage than expected when they examined the 40-year-old destroyer.

"As you remove the paint, you find structural problems and the structural problems are dealt with," Payne said in an interview Friday.

Payne said the navy asked for more repairs and the final bill came to $26.7 million.

"They [the destroyers] are in very, very poor condition," Payne said. "That's what caused all this work arising … the condition of the vessel."

He said the work went on almost two weeks longer than expected.

The Athabaskan suffered damage to its hull while it was being towed back to Halifax and is now berthed in North Sydney. The military has said it is assessing that damage and trying to determine when it occurred.

Last Friday, tethering lines broke after the vessel left Sydney and was being towed in rough waters off a rocky shoal, a military spokesman has said.

Repairs took longer than expected
Payne said the repair work in Ontario was supposed to have been completed in late November, and navy officers were then expected to recommission the destroyer's engines while at the shipyard.

The ship was expected to steam back to Halifax under its own power before the St. Lawrence Seaway closed for the winter. But Payne said because the repairs took longer than expected, there wasn't enough time for the navy to recommission the engines before the seaway closed.

He said the navy then decided to have the vessel towed, rather than leaving it in dry dock over the winter. 

The navy issued a brief statement late Friday saying a damage assessment had been completed and temporary, minor repairs were underway to ensure the ship's hull is watertight.

Lt.-Cmdr. Bruno Tremblay said the ship will be towed to Halifax once the repairs are completed, but his email did not say how long that would take.

"Once this work completed, we are highly confident that the ship can safely return to her home port," Tremblay said.

"Once in Halifax, we will be in a position to complete a thorough follow-on assessment and make a decision on any requirement for a more fulsome investigation."

The Public Works Department did not return messages for comment.

HMCS Athabaskan, which was commissioned on Sept. 30, 1972, is one of three Iroquois-class destroyers that provide navy task groups with air defence and command and control capabilities.

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Curious if the stuff in yellow text is accurate.


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## Stoker

So apparently a repair party left FMF yesterday to repair the holes with steel plates, rubber gaskets and a hilti gun to attach it.


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## Pat in Halifax

*Curious if the stuff in yellow text is accurate.*
In all likelihood, yes. I remember bringing TOR out of NEWDOCK (St Johns, NL) in Dec 00 just in time for Christmas with bare minimum systems but cleared 'safe at sea'. Talking to some of the crew as late as mid December, that was still being looked at as an option.

Pedantic point though: "... navy officers were then expected to recommission the destroyer's engines ..." - Navy 'Officers' would NEVER recommission engines in RCN vessels.


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## Navy_Pete

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> *Curious if the stuff in yellow text is accurate.*
> In all likelihood, yes. I remember bringing TOR out of NEWDOCK (St Johns, NL) in Dec 00 just in time for Christmas with bare minimum systems but cleared 'safe at sea'. Talking to some of the crew as late as mid December, that was still being looked at as an option.
> 
> Pedantic point though: "... navy officers were then expected to recommission the destroyer's engines ..." - Navy 'Officers' would NEVER recommission engines in RCN vessels.



Wow, that is pretty pedantic... It would have been a navy team made of of Mil and Civilians, overseen by a Navy engineering officer and also a civilian or two on the engineering side.  When that gets filtered through public affairs folks, what was in the story was pretty close


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## Pat in Halifax

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Wow, that is pretty pedantic... It would have been a navy team made of of Mil and Civilians, overseen by a Navy engineering officer and also a civilian or two on the engineering side.  When that gets filtered through public affairs folks, what was in the story was pretty close


Having spent the last 30+ years of my life starting and stopping diesel, gas and steam turbine main and auxiliary engines, countless trials and roughly 10000 hours on multiple class Cert 3 tickets and being an NCM, it strikes a bitter chord when statements like this are made-Call me too emotional - fine.

That said, I am sure there will be some interesting conversations around the water fountains Monday morning. I suspect there will be more info on this early in the week too.

Pat


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## Navy_Pete

Fair enough, although watching a team of officers reactivate it would be pretty entertaining....  "Where does the gas go in?"  
"Is this line not supposed to be attached to something?"
"What does this part do?"
"Has anyone seen the CERA?" ;D


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## dapaterson

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Having spent the last 30+ years of my life starting and stopping diesel, gas and steam turbine main and auxiliary engines, countless trials and roughly 10000 hours on multiple class Cert 3 tickets and being an NCM, it strikes a bitter chord when statements like this are made-Call me too emotional - fine.




Well, the article never said _commissioned_ officers, did it?


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## Stoker

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Having spent the last 30+ years of my life starting and stopping diesel, gas and steam turbine main and auxiliary engines, countless trials and roughly 10000 hours on multiple class Cert 3 tickets and being an NCM, it strikes a bitter chord when statements like this are made-Call me too emotional - fine.
> 
> That said, I am sure there will be some interesting conversations around the water fountains Monday morning. I suspect there will be more info on this early in the week too.
> 
> Pat



Well they needed someone to drive the truck right?


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## Fishbone Jones

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Well, the article never said _commissioned_ officers, did it?





When you Commission something, you're putting it into service.  

When you Warrant something, you're guaranteeing it will work.


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## Kat Stevens

But isn't there a key that fits in the steering column that requires a degree to turn?


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## Pat in Halifax

Actually there is indeed a key on board Halifax class; one for each GT and one for the PDE and other than the EO locking the keys in his/her safe, they are handled by on watch personnel only and controlled by the on watch EOOW.
That said, sorry Mods for wandering off topic.

If as Chief Stoker says, an FMF team ventured to Cape Breton on Friday, we might hear something soon. What a crying, frustrating shame this is for Athabaskan's crew. Unfortunatley for the crews of the other operational ships in Halifax, ATH's unscheduled repairs will indeed tie up resources planned for these other units thereby creating added headache for their crews as well as FMF personnel too.


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## Navy_Pete

There are 4 keys on the IRO class as well; one per propulsion gas turbine.

Hearing repairs are done, now just waiting for final contract details and assuming weather allows should be out of there soon.

Sure however this turns out it is going to be messy, wonder how soon someone will try and find a scapegoat? Sometimes stuff just happens, despite best laid plans.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

I think Pat in Halifax is too humble calling himself a NCM.

He is, after all a Chief Petty Officer.

I think we can excuse both the Public affairs officer and the press for thinking that a team of officers would do the engine restart if their list told them that a team comprised of an Engineering Officer, a Chief Petty Officer, many Petty Officers and some seaman would do it and they would act as Engineering Officers of the Watch to return the ship to halifax. 

The real sad thing here is that poor ATHABASKAN seem to be catching up to its WWII predecessor: the Unlucky Lady.

P.S. in re: two tons shackles: Harbour tugs are usually fendered from stem to stern, but not ocean going tugs or salvage tugs, which is the more likely type of tugs that would have been employed here, which would appear to be the case if the tug was the one we see behind ATHABASKAN in the CBC clip at the end, which you will note is barely fendered at the front.


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## Stoker

Looks like they got her hull patched

http://news.ca.msn.com/local/novascotia/hmcs-athabaskans-damaged-hull-patched-up-1


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## Pat in Halifax

I haven't been looking (admitedly) too hard and have only heard scuttlebut from a few people on board but it would appear that, as Adm Gardham stated on CTV the other night, the damage is not structural and is little more than a good jetty bashing (My perception of his words, NOT his words!) would have caused.
I guess they were working on the heat yesterday-Anyone in dkyd have any updated info (that is not restricted in nature)?

Pat


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## Stoker

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I haven't been looking (admitedly) too hard and have only heard scuttlebut from a few people on board but it would appear that, as Adm Gardham stated on CTV the other night, the damage is not structural and is little more than a good jetty bashing (My perception of his words, NOT his words!) would have caused.
> I guess they were working on the heat yesterday-Anyone in dkyd have any updated info (that is not restricted in nature)?
> 
> Pat



I was down by her this evening and they had heating units blowing warm air into the ship. Apparently when the work crews went on board they found icicles in some spaces.


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## Ziobrop

Coverage Of HMCS Athbaskan's Tow, including Damage and repair Progress
http://blog.halifaxshippingnews.ca/search/label/HMCS%20Athabaskan


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