# CadetPat field uniform



## Servicepub

From the Army Cadet League

_NOTICE:
TEMPORARY CLOSURE OF CANCAV CADET CLOTHING

The Army Cadet League of Canada regrets to advise that the much-needed initiative to provide CanadianCadets with access to an affordable field dress uniform will be a temporarily suspended because of complications with the costs of customs and duty related to cross border delivery. Consequently the CANCAV web site will close until a Canadian supplier is identified.

While this is a disappointment, we expect that new arrangements will simplify the delivery system while maintaining the principles of affordability, availability and durability. The Army Cadet League of Canada are in negotiation with a clothing manufacturer based in Canada. This change is intended to remove cross border duties and brokerage fees and reduce delivery charges. Additionally, there will be some minor improvements to the clothing design; however, the previously adopted digital pattern, designated as "CADETPAT", will not change.

There is no doubt that Army Cadets require functional clothing when undergoing mandatory support activities such as field training exercises. Suitable civilian clothing is very acceptable for this purpose and cadets must not be required to purchase military style field clothing. The Army Cadet League initiative to provide the cadets with access to affordable uniform field dress is a good one. The initial obstacles will be quickly overcome and this option will be restored quickly.

I will notify all when details are available about the new supplier._

This is the proposed field uniform for cadets. It is a digitised cam but does not look like CadPat. I understand that it is for private purchase by individual cadets and will not be supplied by the Army Cadet League. No cadet will be forced to buy this - it is purely voluntary.


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## dano

I wouldn't be surprised if in 4-8 years they will have the Cadetpat for issued clothing at camp.


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## Docherty

This summer in Vernon they were trying it out on the Pioneer Platoon.


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## Burrows

All I can say is EEEEWWW! its ODs for me.


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## gt102

Ill stick with my fronteac... We can wear them, and they look better then this cadetpat/marpat...

But non the less I still love OD's.. They are alot cooler (no, not looking ) and they dry faster then cadpat


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## ouyin2000

i dont understand why the Army Cadet League doesnt talk to the Canadian Forces about getting a hold of some now outdated ODs??? and shipping them to cadet units to issue to their cadets (or purchase if the cadet so desires)

I am sure it would be much cheaper and quicker then trying to find a civilian source and these border taxes and duty fees they would have to pay for each piece of MARPAT we get


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## dano

If DND can get money for the ODs. They will take that option over most others.


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## sgt_mandal

Could you post a link of the site you got this from?


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## gt102

the old site for CANCAV is gone...im pretty sure it was posted on their for a while...but the old site was

http://www.cancav.com


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## Sgt_McWatt

I agree. I would rather stick with my OD combats then get issued fake CADPAT combats at a CTC.
Regards,


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## sgt_mandal

hmm, I forgot to add my tupence on this lol. I wouldn't be for being issued this "CADETPAT" garbage. If I had to wear them, I'd probably sleep in my OD's to make up for it lol. ( I don't want my OD's to feel bad )


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## Burrows

Ok I have officially felt the CadetPat material...anyone else think that making a field uniform out of jean is a stupid idea? absorbing and holding water?


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## gt102

yup.... I have a cadpat tunic made of the same garbage... trying to get a new one


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## Crazy_Eyes

Haven't seen it, can some one provide a pic or a link?


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## gt102

Ill try to get a link... wont be untill later today


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## Sgt.Fitzpatrick

I'll stick with the olive green combats.  :dontpanic:


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## q_1966

Personaly ive seen this marpat stuff and i dont like it, why dont we just stick to the old combats (Pre Cadpat) The stuff they issue at camp now, and just sell us that at a cheaper price


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## primer

I have actually seen and held this Cadet Marpat uniform. Its thick and feels like canvas or denim. I would just stick with the old stuff.


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## ouyin2000

Try convincing the army cadet league that the old ODs are still sufficient for cadets.

i personally dont think that anyone in my corps will be wearing them any time soon, none of the officers like the new CadetPat stuff, and are fully willing to chip in some of their own money, and use some of what we raised to purchase some ODs from surplus stores, and whatnot


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## Fishbone Jones

If so many of you are against it, I would suggest putting your reasons and arguments in writing. Send it up through the chain with a request for a concerted effort amongst the various Corps across the country. The higher ups, if they agree with you will pass your concerns to the League. Try to offer viable solutions to your complaints and maybe you can get the league to fund that instead. Use your energy to fight this properly, don't expend your energy whining and bitching. There are a number of CIC Officers in your Forum here that should be latching right onto your concerns and running with it. That's what they're for. Talk to them.


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## Docherty

I have a pair of the new Cadet CADPAT uniform not the one you can buy through the league but they are almost the same.  The ones I have are made out of the same material as real CADPAT (same colour too), they are warmer, stronger, and they aren't field lingere.  I love them and I've used them on a couple FTXs and haven't had any problems with them yet.


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## madchicken

I dunno, I definently agree with recceguy.   I think we should pition (Is that spelled right?) to have the league fund ODs, seriously I would much rather wear my ODs over a CADPAT uniform.   In my corps only the officers wear CADPAT, so I would say thats what seperates the cadets from the officers.   Also, one of my Warrants told me that we are no longer able to wear CADPAT.   Apprently it's not just some crappy rumour either, because my training officer was talking about it.


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## Sgt_McWatt

madchicken said:
			
		

> I dunno, I definently agree with recceguy.   I think we should pition (Is that spelled right?) to have the league fund ODs, seriously I would much rather wear my ODs over a CADPAT uniform.   In my corps only the officers wear CADPAT, so I would say thats what seperates the cadets from the officers.   Also, one of my Warrants told me that we are no longer able to wear CADPAT.   Apprently it's not just some crappy rumour either, because my training officer was talking about it.



Cadets were never allowed to wear "REAL" CADPAT. However if you purchased Frontenac or the Army Cadet pattern and already have it then you may wear it.
Regards,


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## madchicken

Yeah, a new recruit in my corps wore some kind of hunter cadpat on an FTX we had last weekend and he was allowed to wear it.  But I still think the OD is better.


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## Burrows

The whole point of "Field Lingerie" is to be able to dry quickly...I know I dont want to spend 3 days in the field in wet combats.


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## Docherty

Field Lingere is see through pants and stuff like that.


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## sgt_mandal

see through as in over used, not deliberate. Just thought I'd clear that up.


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## Big Foot

Yeah, I agree, OD is pretty decent, though I have nothing to compare it to. As for wanting or liking combat lingerie, I've both seen it and used it. So unless you want everyone around to know what colour boxers you're wearing. don't wish you had it. That being said, i hope I get my CADPAT before summer training, don't want to be like the only guy at the mega still wearing solid green.


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## q_1966

When your combat pants get that worn out, you should replace it, or if your an exibistionist, let people see what colour boxers, your wearing. 

- Shawn


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## soldiers301

Posted by: "The Crowe": Ill stick with my fronteac... We can wear them, and they look better then this cadetpat/marpat...

But non the less I still love OD's.. They are alot cooler (no, not looking ) and they dry faster then cadpat



What are you talking about ! The CADPAT is made out with the same type of material as the OD : 50% Nylon 50% Coton.


CADPAT are better for soldiers ... For cadets its better with OD.


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## GGHG_Cadet

soldiers301, The Crowe probably means OD dry faster than cadetpat not cadpat.


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## Big Foot

As for the comment about OD being better for cadets, where's my CADPAT? lol. I'm still stuck with the old green stuff. Not like it matters though, I should have my CADPAT by the end of the week. At least some of my CADPAT. lol


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## Corporal McDill.

What does this "cadetPat" look like?  I'm in cadets...but I have CADPATs *cough*, is there a rule against that?


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## sgt_mandal

hmm, I don't know about that anymore. My CO started telling me cadets are now authorized to wear CADPAT if they can acquire it. I was curious if he meant the Frontys, but he said that we are authorized to wear the real stuff  ??? ??? ??? ??? (don't worry, I wouldnt be cought dead in Frontys let a lone the real stuff)


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## Chimo2803

I bought a pair of Frontenacs, but because the marketed them as real CADPAT. I am however in the process of having a pair made for me using an example of real CADPATs, and some genuine material. I am planning on having a few pairs made, or eventually having enough pairs made to sell that at a VERY low price to the cadets at my corp. The only reason I would actually charge anything would be to cover the price of the material, and the people making them. I just want to make my corp look good, but I wouldnt hold my breath, because most people don't even have ODs in my corp, and last time I checked, our supply room still had the 70s style CFs.


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## q_1966

as far as wearing the fakepat (wannabe Cadpat sold at Wheelers) your not alout to wear your Beret or epilates with them


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## Excolis

Papke, you are the only one that agrees with me about the orders for wearing the CPGear uniforms.  nice to see i am not the only one that heard that those were the rules.  i thought i was loosing it.


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## Chimo2803

Yes, I do realize the regs on wearing fake cadpat uniforms, although I would still like to know whether or not I can aqquire some real ones.


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## Excolis

if you get your hands on some, you still are not allowed to wear them as a cadet unfortunatly


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## Chimo2803

I've been told by all of my officers, and my CO that I will be able to wear them, If I can aquire them. Apparently, because Cadets dont have an official combat uniform, we are eligible to wear anything. Hell...I've seen some Cadets in brit-cams, or BDUs. Mind you, they have enough respect to not wear their beret with them on...but apparently, my officers say that I can wear them...with my headdress...as long as I have my epiletes on, and that it clearly states Cadet, instead of Canada on the flash. I am in the process of having wheelersonline make me some CADPAT epiletes with CADET on them instead of CANADA.


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## Thompson_JM

Chimo2803 said:
			
		

> ...Apparently, because Cadets don't have an official combat uniform...




Not to stir the pot too much here... but maybe the reason you don't have an official "Combat" Uniform is because as a cadet you will never see Combat.....


also a side note... When I worked for the Cadet QM in Connaught we Issued Every Cadet on Camp 2x OD Green Combat Tunics and Pants, as well as Mk III Combat Boots amongst other kit... The reason Cadets Do not get issued OD Greens or CadetPat, or so on, is because it is not an authorized Cadet Uniform... If and when a Cadet Left The camp, such as to go to National Defence Medical Center, they would change from the ODs into their issued Cadet Corps Uniform. 

So why were they Issued if they are technically not an authorized uniform? My guess is a sense of uniformity, and also with the limits that were placed on the amount of Kit Cadets could bring it was done to limit the wear and tear on personal clothing.


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## Chang

if you're a reservist and a cadet are you allowed to wear the cadpat reserves issue you on cadet FTXs?


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## Zedic_1913

Cpl Thompson said:
			
		

> is because it is not an authorized Cadet Uniform...


Combats are an authorized uniform for cadets undergoing training at a Cadet Summer Training Centre.  This is why OD combats are issued to Army Cadets at all Army CSTCs in Canada.

They are not an official uniform for Local Headquarters Training though.


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## p_imbeault

This may have been an isolated incident, but this year our entire corps was issued ODs. I heard they had been sitting in a warehouse for about a year, they were brand new (or so they seem anyway) I am a little foggy on the details, but I think we got them for free, and we have lots left over.


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## Franko

Alrighty troops.....I'll wade into this mess....   :

I have been working with cadets since 1988 and was in myself (started in 83)

Here are the rules (the basic jist, no big words)

1. Cadets are *NOT* allowed to wear official CADPAT combat clothing. Doing so will get the MP's involved and siezure of said clothes, weather you bought them or not. They are not for sale.....period. Too bad if you think otherwise.

2. MARPAT and other lookalikes are allowed, by CO's descretion.

3. Wearing headress is allowed whilst in MARPAT and lookalikes.

4. When wearing MARPAT and lookalikes the only slip on AUTHORISED for cadets to wear is black with gold embroidery and the title CADET embroidered  at the bottom. If your CO allows anything else he/she is in violation of CATOS and DCDS Cadet regulations.

5. The purpose of having MARPAT and lookalikes availiable to cadets is for use in the field only. This stops cadets from using their civies in the field and getting them ruined. 


That in a nut shell is the rules for CADPAT, MARPAT, and all the lookalikes.

I have had combat clothing seized in the past, and through investigations by the MPs found out that the combats were stolen from a soldier in Gagetown and purchased by a War Surplus dealer....who got charged for buying stolen items.

Beware of dealers and only trust the ones that are endorsed by the Cadet League.

Regards


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## George Wallace

Thank you Franko

....now will that advice fall on deaf ears?

GW


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## Jonny Boy

ok i know this will sound really stupid but what does OD's  stand for are they the olve combats we have right know?


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## Big Foot

OD = Olive Drab, pretty simple, eh?


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## Jonny Boy

ok that is what i was thinking but i wasnt sure :-[ 

thankyou


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## q_1966

hopefully airborne soon said:
			
		

> Papke, you are the only one that agrees with me about the orders for wearing the CPGear uniforms.   nice to see i am not the only one that heard that those were the rules.   i thought i was loosing it.



If I remember right, there was a post a while back, and they had to post the QO&R for proof. if someone could provide a link to the specific QO&R i think it would validate both of our opinions. but common sense wise, the Frontenacs are civilian clothing, you dont wear your Beret and epilates with your Civvies, do you?
   
- Shawn


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## ouyin2000

C-17 Globemaster said:
			
		

> if you're a reservist and a cadet are you allowed to wear the cadpat reserves issue you on cadet FTXs?


simple answer: No

extended version: You should not be enrolled as a member of the CF (whether reserve or Reg Force), and on strength with a cadet corps AS A CADET

in Pac Reg being a member of a Reserve unit, and as a Cadet is strictly not allowed...you are either one or the other...the only exception is if you are assisting with the cadet corps AS A RESERVIST

so its either 1 or the other


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## Zedic_1913

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> simple answer: No
> 
> extended version: You should not be enrolled as a member of the CF (whether reserve or Reg Force), and on strength with a cadet corps AS A CADET
> 
> in Pac Reg being a member of a Reserve unit, and as a Cadet is strictly not allowed...you are either one or the other...the only exception is if you are assisting with the cadet corps AS A RESERVIST
> 
> so its either 1 or the other



CATO 13-07 STATUS - Cadet / Member of the Primary Reserve
http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/1307_b.pdf

So it is possible, I would still say CADPAT is a no go though, because your not on a reserve activity .... unless you get approval from your reserve unit and cadet unit COs.


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## Docherty

That's actually false.  I am waiting to hear from CFRC about a employment opportunity with the PRes and I am allowed to be in Cadets and the Reserves.


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## ouyin2000

Reserve unit COs usually allow cadets being a Reserve member as well...but most (if not all) cadet unit COs say No


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## Docherty

Ya, so Pac Region allows it but COs discourage it, but if you look at it the Aff. Unit appreciates new recruits and it looks good on the Cadet Corp.


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## ouyin2000

im sure it does look good....but just remember that both COs must be in agreement for it to happen


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## Crazy_Eyes

Why would you want to still be in cadets while your a reservist? It'd just seem so lame, thats just my personal opinion though, you may have your reasons for doing that and I dont have a problem with that.


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## Chang

i'm not done my cadet career yet. i rather much stay in the cadets but reserves get me an income and plus its something i enjoy doing. also, i've got some really good friends in cadets that i rather not ditch because i want to join the reserves. plus my cadet corps has a number of NCOs aging out this year so i rather not ditch the corps....anyways, isn't this suppose to be a thread about cadetpat?


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## Love793

Papke said:
			
		

> If I remember right, there was a post a while back, and they had to post the QO&R for proof. if someone could provide a link to the specific QO&R i think it would validate both of our opinions. but common sense wise, the Frontenacs are civilian clothing, you dont wear your Beret and epilates with your Civvies, do you?
> 
> - Shawn



Cadets are allowed to wear headdress with "Combat Clothing", while under going Environmental Training.  Again this is to prevent wear and tear on civie clothing.  As long as the combat clothing has an prominent identifier on it indicating the pers is a cadet.

Also the "Bible" you speak of is The QR&Os (vols 1-5)


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## Franko

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Thank you Franko
> 
> ....now will that advice fall on deaf ears?
> 
> GW



Obviously it has George.....    :

Regards


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## Scott

The subject of Reservists still being in Cadets has been beaten to death here. Check some other threads and you will find that it *is* allowed under certain conditions. 

Why don't we all pause to reflect upon the  Army.ca Conduct Guidelines , specifically the portion about Qualifying Information I am getting sick and tired of repeating myself on this subject, if you have something to contribute you had better be ready to back it up with some hard info, preferably in the form of a link. 

Because this hasn't been done, yet another thread is going to bite the dust in the Cadet Forum.


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## Dane

The last thread was locked? so this tidbit can be its own thread.

My new Corps is having Cadets purchase, at their expense, and only if they so desire, the new CADETPAT uniform. Some observations:

- The old "grama" buttons are still on. If I was using my set for an extended period of time (which I'm not) I'd remove them. They're big, and ugly;
- The material was rumoured to be changing. It did not.
- If you don't explicitly give them last name information they will print the name tape as "ARMY CADETS" so be warned;
- The Boots are perhaps one of the worst products I have ever seen. Don't buy them, I'd suggest. They're thin, and the tread is a joke. Go to a local surplus store, or better yet buy new if you can afford it;
- The bush hat isn't as bad as I thought it might be, but the sizes seem to be off. It might be best to actually call the company when ordering?
- They are very good with shipping times and costs.

Cheers


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## p_imbeault

Are these the same type as the ones the CSM's at VACSTC wore this summer? Or have they been modified from that (It was my understanding that the ones we saw the CSM's wear were a prototype)


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## Dane

So in conclusion, the prototype is effectivly the finished product.


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## Pea

Do any of you have any pictures available of this CADETPAT? I have never heard of it.


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## PPCLI MCpl

I was about to ask the same question.


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## yoman

This is C/CSM Shawn Rogozinski, 390 North Saskatchewan Regiment RC(Army)CC, from Alpha Company VACSTC 2005.

And that's what it looks like.


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## Pea

So is this what all cadets are supposed to wear now? I am not too sure how I feel about it yet.


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## Big Foot

Question, why is he wearing a real CF MWO slip on?


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## Pea

That is a very good question. I was sure my slip ons had Cadet written on them.


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## ryanmann356

ordering this cadetpat is optional.   I have heard that the material was suppost to be changed to the material general issue CADPAT is made of but this has not happend and that is a fact.   A couple of my cadets have it and the buttons are the same and so is the material.   The buttons can be changed and is not worth getting bent out of shape about them (They're buttons)   I live in an area that doesnt get hot in the summer but gets cold in the winter so the material isnt a big deal if you live in a similar area.   I myself am getting a pair because it is quite effective.   I did a test on an FTX recently with one cadet wearing cadetpat and the other wearing ODs and the cadetpat clad cadet was harder to spot hidden in a bush than the OD one.   When they infromed my corps about it I told my cadets not to order the boots because I tried them out in Vernon.   They were junk.   The tilly hat is ok.   Maybe wash it and toss it into the dryer with some fabric softener and it should be a bit better.


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## Strike

WRT rank, was wondering the same thing.


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## Burrows

The CADPAT rank slips were issued by Vernon ACSTC this summer to CSMs wearing the CADETPAT.  I'm not sure why, but it was probably the COs descision.


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## Sgt_McWatt

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> The CADPAT rank slips were issued by Vernon ACSTC this summer to CSMs wearing the CADETPAT.   I'm not sure why, but it was probably the COs descision.



Not toppurposely start an argument but if a CIC officer(or any one) told me to shoot my cadets I woulden't do it. So why do something that is iillegal? Is it not right there in the mmanual "obey all LAWFUL orders and regulations"?


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## p_imbeault

I was under the impression that the Rank Slip ons in CADETPAT were unavailable (Unconfirmed), so they CSM's were issued the CADPAT ones.


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## Rocky Mountain Ranger

In my opinion, the marpat uniforms are fug.  The sizings are ridiculous.  You get some pants that are super skinny with really long legs, and others that are ridiculously large.  The material feels like crap, as they have a special coating, not to be washed in a regular washing machine.  The colour fades extremely quickly, and the buttons are extremely inconvenient.  

Personally, I would not waste my money on them.  But hey, to each their own.   :


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## Big Foot

C/WO. McWatt said:
			
		

> Not toppurposely start an argument but if a CIC officer(or any one) told me to shoot my cadets I woulden't do it. So why do something that is iillegal? Is it not right there in the mmanual "obey all LAWFUL orders and regulations"?


I would have to agree with you there, I think being told to wear a rank slip on that you haven't earned is an unlawful order. If the CADETPAT slip ons were unavailable, why were they not ordered to wear their standard green one which has cadet written on the bottom? I find this very odd.


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## p_imbeault

RMR, I agree with you I don't think the Uniforms are all that feasible. Sure they look cool, and I'm sure allot of Cadets will try and get their hands on a set. I have a few pairs of the OD combats that are used nation wide for Cadets, and I don't think there is anything wrong with them. Cadets will probably buy the CADETPAT for the LCF (Look Cool Factor). I think ODs are fine for Cadets, if they want a state of the art uniform join the Reserves. Also I think the new CADETPAT uniforms are to brownish (IMHO of course).

My statement about the Slip Ons is still unconfirmed, if someone could shed some light on this mystery?


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## ryanmann356

At the time of the picture, the cadetpat rank slip ons had not yet been made in marpat form, so they gave the CSMs regular cadpat slip ons temporarily.  ANyway I couldnt tell the difference until i looked at it closely anyway, not a big deal


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## p_imbeault

Thanks ryanmann356, I thought as much.


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## Big Foot

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> At the time of the picture, the cadetpat rank slip ons had not yet been made in marpat form, so they gave the CSMs regular cadpat slip ons temporarily.  ANyway I couldnt tell the difference until i looked at it closely anyway, not a big deal


I think it is a pretty big deal, having cadets wearing ranks they're not entitled to.


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## Dane

Be as angry as you want, but they gave us those ranks to wear so we did. There's not really a debate here; it shouldn't have been done, but it was b/c it seemed like the most viable solution. We had them on for a stunning 8 hours.

The flaw in logic with ODs is

a. They're actually becoming hard to buy in quantity for LHQs (thats true of Vancouver)
b. Ussually, you're buying used. Of course it's cheaper than CADETPAT.

All these shots at the cost are unwarranted when you consider the clothers your wearing right now probably cost more and are less functional. (I know some one is going to post that they're wearing a $5 shirt and made their pants, but that's not true of most Cadets...)


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## Dane

....also, the sizing is totally different. *These uniforms are not repackaged MARPAT* They're actually made in Victoria, BC.


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## p_imbeault

Dane, what company is making them? And is there a website (seeing as how the CanCav, if thats even the right one is no longer up, or I can't seem to find it)


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## COBRA-6

Is there an offical cadet policy WRT wearing of combats/CADPAT/CADETPAT that spells out who can wear what, and when? There seems to be so much confusion over this issue.


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## Bean

There is a CATO on the various orders of dress for each of the cadet branches, the most clear one is actually the air cadet one.  Basically the CO can authorize the wear of combats (refering to the older OG combats), or civilian look-a-like clothing.  Anything the cadet wears for a field uniform is at their expense and it is the CO's discretion as to whether the cadets are permitted to wear it or not.  In the dress regs the "Standard" for combats remains the OG's.  In this, or any other, order of dress it is pretty clearly laid out that only the issued dark green (blue, blck for air and sea cadetrs respectivly) rank slip-ons are to be worn.  So the common interpretation has been that if you are wearing OG's, or Real CADPAT you can wear the issued slip-on, any otherclothing including look-a-like patterns, no rank or accoutrements are to be worn.  CADETPAT is a league thing and hasn't found its way specifically into any of the current rules and regs we are using.  I haven't actually see it other than the photos from VACSTC.  

That being said, I have seen several cadets in real or fake CADPAT wearing CADPAT rank badges with CADET across the bottom, not a standard issue or even available item as far as I know, but surplus stores probably have the rank slip-ons and I'm sure some ingeneous cadet contacted CP Gear and had the titles made up for use.  I wouldn't let them get away with that at my unit, but others might.


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## Whiskey_Dan

Dane said:
			
		

> Be as angry as you want, but they gave us those ranks to wear so we did. There's not really a debate here; it shouldn't have been done, but it was b/c it seemed like the most viable solution. We had them on for a stunning 8 hours.
> 
> The flaw in logic with ODs is
> 
> a. They're actually becoming hard to buy in quantity for LHQs (thats true of Vancouver)
> b. Ussually, you're buying used. Of course it's cheaper than CADETPAT.
> 
> All these shots at the cost are unwarranted when you consider the clothers your wearing right now probably cost more and are less functional. (I know some one is going to post that they're wearing a $5 shirt and made their pants, but that's not true of most Cadets...)



En Contrare, there is PLENTY of OD floating around Vancouver and I would bet that sewage treatment plant on Annacis Island! ;D
Dave's Army Surplus in New West has a MASSIVE warehouse on Annacis Island that is absolutely stocked FULL of OD combats. 
If you call that a shortage....I'd like to see what would happen if that stockpile wasn't there : Anyways, were not short of OD combats in the Vancouver area for cadets.



Dan


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## Big Foot

Slim said:
			
		

> Lets see a pic of this stuff...


It's on page 1, Slim.


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## Burrows

C/WO. McWatt said:
			
		

> Not toppurposely start an argument but if a CIC officer(or any one) told me to shoot my cadets I woulden't do it. So why do something that is iillegal? Is it not right there in the mmanual "obey all LAWFUL orders and regulations"?



Ok so,  you're comparing killing a cadet to the person in charge telling you how you will wear the uniform and what you will wear with it.  Great analogy.


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## Sgt_McWatt

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> OK so,   you're comparing killing a cadet to the person in charge telling you how you will wear the uniform and what you will wear with it.   Great analogy.



Yes, I am, and I believe it is. considering there are no degrees of illegalness. It is black or white, it is illegal or not illegal. So then regardless of weather momorally it is similaor notr, in a legal seance it is equal, and the legal aspect was my point. Thank you for you input though.


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## Dane

I know about Dave's, my last LHQ did an order of 50 full sets from them last May. The issue, I should restate. 

Quantity is available. _Quality_ in numbers is getting harder to come by.


----------



## PViddy

it should be interesting to see how this "cadetpat" fit's into the CATO's.  i think it's practical that cadets have their own fatigues.  i think the pattern is too American of course.  the OD's would have been better IMO.

cheers

PV


----------



## Silent

I completely agree with PViddy, I think that it's great that cadets have their own unique style of combats, instead of relying on old, used combats that are no longer being used by the CF. Also I think that this will put a stop to, or at least lessen the amount of cadets that purchase imitation CADPATs and act like they are in the CF. Being a cadet myself, i think it will make cadets feel prouder since we are finally getting some recognition and we have something that is unique to the cadet movement. Our dress uniforms closely resemble our respective elements of the Canadian Forces and the olive drab combats were the same ones the CF were issued for a long period of time. I think this new, unique style of combats just for cadets, I think that it will increase pride and morale knowing that we have our own uniform, unique to us...Even if it is a bit American


----------



## Dane

It's a grey area in the CATOs, technically it's civilian clothing. However there is also a provision that anything that could be taken to be military clothing must have a denotation that you are a Cadet. Depends on the region for specifics. RSCU (P) allows a brassard with "Royal Canadian Army Cadets" or a cadet slip on.


----------



## ryanmann356

Supposedly there is a website for it www.cadetgear.com, but it is either down or has not yet been completed.  I tired .ca, .gov, .tk, .net and all other things that come after the dot but theres no official site for cadetpat.  www.armycadethistory.com is the only place that I know of for info regarding cadetpat, and it just offers the pic or Rogo and order forms.  Anyway we can debate untill the cows come home but in the end its a matter of personal preferance.  If you like ODs then dont buy the cadetpat, if you dont like ODs then order the cadetpat.  Dont be slamming the cadetpat combats untill you actually try them.  I tried them in Vernon and found them rather effective and comfortable, but in the end the king of combats will always be the Canadian Disruptive Pattern


----------



## KueflerVictor

I perfer Cadpat to cadetpat.  but in warm dryer portions of Canada the cadetpat would work quite well.


----------



## Dane

http://www.armycadetleague.bc.ca/cadet_pattern_field_gear.htm


----------



## COBRA-6

I don't think having field clothing that closely resembles MARPAT is a very good idea for the Cadets, PR wise. A simple OD would be less expensive and work just as well. This does not need to be used surplus stuff either, there are dozens of BDU makers out there that produce clothing in OD. But until a clear policy is in place I guess everyone will do their own thing.

IIRC, when I was in Cadets, we wore a dark-green brassard with our affiliated unit shoulder flash, the RCAC badge and the same sew-on rank as was on our dress uniforms. This worked quiet well as we were clearly identified as Cadets.


----------



## 1feral1

Cam Ptrn refresher  ;D

1. MARPAT 

2. CADPAT; and

3. US Army ACU 

4. For comparison, here is the current AUSCAM DPDU left, current AUSCAM DPCU tropical, and the 1st generation AUSCAM DPDU right.

All pics (including the hats) are of genuine issue stuff, and not after market crap.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Silent

Just a couple of quick questions, first of all: are these CADETPAT uniforms only intended for army cadets, or can they be acquired by all three elements? second: Do these have to be ordered direct from the company, or can they be ordered and issued via our LHQ?


----------



## KueflerVictor

Silent said:
			
		

> Just a couple of quick questions, first of all: are these CADETPAT uniforms only intended for army cadets, or can they be acquired by all three elements? second: Do these have to be ordered direct from the company, or can they be ordered and issued via our LHQ?


any cadet can get them


----------



## Silent

but by ordering online, how can they confirm that the person ordering is in fact, a cadet? :-\


----------



## 1feral1

By the looks of things this stuff is of a MARPAT style, and its for sale to the general public thru a CADET kit website. No restrictions and why would there be in the first place.

Wes


----------



## ouyin2000

exactly, someone could argue that the new CADETPAT is a type of civilian clothing in a military pattern, which means anyone can buy it and wear it legally ( as long as they don't go so far as to pass themself off as a military member)


----------



## Silent

Received and and understood, out!  ;D


----------



## Dane

Delivery can be to the LHQ if you've prepaid and asked your CO or applicable officer. All it will do is fill their mail box. 

I'd suggest it be sent to your house (when I order on line I do COD as much as possible)


----------



## Silent

Ok, i just wasn't really sure if this was an actual uniform that would/could be issued if you paid for it, or if it was just a civillian piece of clothing that was made for cadets. thanks!


----------



## Dane

Silent said:
			
		

> Ok, i just wasn't really sure if this was an actual uniform that would/could be issued if you paid for it, or if it was just a civillian piece of clothing that was made for cadets. thanks!



The only recognition it has as a uniform from the CATOs is that any military uniform look alike must have deonation that you're a cadet.


----------



## PViddy

If this actually all goes through, in time you will see 55-04 re-writtten to include it as an authorized form of dress.  This could still be a few years down the road.

cheers

PV


----------



## sgt_mandal

I don't like this......so, my next bush weekend, I might have cadets show up in civvies, OD, CADPAT, and "CADETPAT"......civvies and ODs I don't mind so much; CADPAT, officers said they're good to go, but I don't agree much with them on that one, but this CADETPAT garbage?!...I agree with one of the previous statements about cadets needing their own distinct pattern. hey, i hear there's a new thing called CADPAT, and they are phasing out Od's?.......:O......maybe, cadet's can stick with Od's!...if we stuck to Od's, they'd be distinct from the   res/regs soon enough.....what is the CCM comming to.......*sigh*


----------



## Dane

What is the CCM coming too "phasing out" (wrong words) an old uniform, I'm not sure perhaps a modern organization witha  vision and resources for Cadets?


----------



## q_1966

I agree with dane on the boots, they are a joke, my friend has a pair and ive seen them the tread is reallly messed up, but it you use Cbt. boots with this Cadetpat, I think it would work just fine.


----------



## PViddy

> I don't like this......so, my next bush weekend, I might have cadets show up in civvies, OD, CADPAT, and "CADETPAT"......civvies and ODs I don't mind so much; CADPAT, officers said they're good to go, but I don't agree much with them on that one, but this CADETPAT garbage?!...I agree with one of the previous statements about cadets needing their own distinct pattern. hey, i hear there's a new thing called CADPAT, and they are phasing out Od's?.......:O......maybe, cadet's can stick with Od's!...if we stuck to Od's, they'd be distinct from the  res/regs soon enough.....what is the CCM comming to.......*sigh*



Mandal,

hold off on the CADETPAT as for now, it is strictly and Army Cadet League thing for Army Cadets.  i mean i suppose Air Cadets could buy it, i doubt that my unit would allow it because right now, it really doesn't fir into Air Cadet dress regs.  Another grey area.

cheers

PV


----------



## sgt_mandal

thank god........


----------



## Silent

> I don't like this......so, my next bush weekend, I might have cadets show up in civvies, OD, CADPAT, and "CADETPAT"......civvies and ODs I don't mind so much; CADPAT, officers said they're good to go, but I don't agree much with them on that one, but this CADETPAT garbage?!...I agree with one of the previous statements about cadets needing their own distinct pattern. hey, i hear there's a new thing called CADPAT, and they are phasing out Od's?.......:O......maybe, cadet's can stick with Od's!...if we stuck to Od's, they'd be distinct from the  res/regs soon enough.....what is the CCM comming to.......*sigh*



Why does it matter what the cadets wear at a bush weekend? They are just supposed to wear civvies and that is what the imitation CADPAT, CADETPAT and OD's are. They arent actual uniforms issued by the CCM, if the cadets want to get all this stuff themselves and pay for it, let them have their fun and think that they are in the army.


----------



## sgt_mandal

Sir,would you mind filling out your profile before you start questioning the rationale behind uniformity in the CCM? Thank you.


----------



## sgt_mandal

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Ain't your place to ask that.


why not?


> Besides, he's right.


how so?


----------



## Kaziklu

Army Cadets have in the past had a field uniform. 
It makes sense for the Army Cadets to have some form of Field uniform has just like the regular Uniform worn at LHQ or on Parade it breeds that Uniformity, the idea of Esprit de Corps amongst the cadets and something that you know is practical for field use (in theory) 

In the base funding has meant that a issued Field uniform hasn't been maintained. 
Field Uniforms are generally based on the regular force uniform of the time. Thus a Cadetpat makes sense as the Regular Forces use Cadpat. The issue of using a MARPAT clone is it is very different from CADPAT.. but I think some of the purpose is to be obviously different from CADPAT. 

I think it's a decent idea to make it purchaseable.

It's not needed per say.. but it is something that allows the cadets to be individual, Identifiable and ensures that they can feel like cadets even when in the field. 

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## GGHG_Cadet

2332Piper said:
			
		

> If his info is required by a mod in regards to a useful discussion, it was be asked for. Cadet discussions are not one of them.



What makes you able to dictate which discussions are useful and which are not? Although this discussion is not useful to you it could be very useful to the cadets on this board. 

Anyways there is no problem in Mandal asking the user to fill out his profile.


----------



## PViddy

Where to start.



> Ain't your place to ask that.
> 
> Besides, he's right.



Well, i would say you "A'int" correct either.   
Here we have "some dude" at an internet java joint for all we know (cause his profile isn't filled out...get it?) coming onto the cadet board making an incorrect statements.   If i was Mandel and i justread some idiotic statement that wasn't really correct, i might ask for a little history as well.
Second what makes a forum important or not and who are you to judge? maybe you should stick tot the forum you deem to be important instead of acting like an ass-hat in this forum?

With that out of the way, as i believe we were on topic of Air Cadet dress regs as it refers to CADETPAT before, i refer you to  http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/5504_b.pdf 

You will find that:

A) No, the cadet dress regs are all not the same as you stated.
B) Cadet slip ons ARE NOT to be worn with any camo clothing, unless it is official CF issue.
C) Pers. wearing Civi Camo clothing are to wear reflective safety vests as required.

and

D) Cadets are not suppose to wear civi's they have the *option* of purchasing CF bush clothing or wear civi's.   Where a cadet is never forced to buy CF "combats" they will usually see the advantage of the durability aspect vs. their CK jeans.   The key element is that they are dressed suitably for the particular event (weather).

Now, as i have stated.   i think the CADETPAT is a great idea, it does give distinction and pride in a cadet uniform but until they change the dress regs for *Air*, it sits as a civi pattern, which is fine just no cadet slip ons or head dress is to be worn.   And at my unit the vest would probably be "required".

hope that clears things up.......   Laughing at somone because they asked another "guest" for further details about profile info   :   ? grow up.


cheers

PV


----------



## yoman

PViddy said:
			
		

> Where to start.
> 
> Now, as i have stated.   i think the CADETPAT is a great idea, it does give distinction and pride in a cadet uniform but until they change the dress regs for *Air*, it sits as a civi pattern, which is fine just no cadet slip ons or head dress is to be worn.   And at my unit the vest would probably be "required".
> 
> hope that clears things up.......   Laughing at somone because they asked another "guest" for further details about profile info   :   ? grow up.
> 
> 
> cheers
> 
> PV



Wow I have never seen a cadet been required to wear a vest because he is wearing civie camouflage clothing. I would probably laugh seeing it myself.


----------



## Silent

Sorry, i guess i should make a few corrections. At MY sqn, cadets are told to bring any clothing they like, ie: civvies/warm clothing. We do not give the cadets options to purchase combats, therefor if they bring any, they bring their own, that they themselves paid for. Thus, it is not a issued uniform, so it is civvies. 

     Also, maybe my sqn isn't as strict as yours about bush weekend attire, so if cadets at my sqn wish to wear imiation CADPAT or any other type of camouflage, we have no problem letting them do so. If they want to go out in the bush and "play army" why not let them? it's harmless, and lets them get just that much more fun out of a bush weekend, and isn't that why us instructors are there? To make sure the cadets have fun while they are learning? I beleive that it is just harmless fun, and if they enjoy it, why not let them do it? It doesnt harm anyone.


----------



## Dane

Finally some voices of reason! CADETPAT is an awesome option for Army Cadets, and was made for a reason. Do you think the ACL would work with D Cdts to create a suitable uniform for Cadets if it was going to be a grotesque violation of the CATOs? (I'm speaking on the Army side of the house.)

Everyone on army.ca says "playing army" when it comes to the field uniforms. Have you ever considered that *uniformity and functionality* come into play? We could wear civis instead of our CF Cadet uniform, too? Really, we're just "playing army" in that too.


----------



## PViddy

Mr. Silent,

first off, thanks for filling out your profile, now we can see that you being a cadet actually have some experience with the CCM, the clarification of which, was all that requested in the first place.

Regarding the dubbed "combats" if you read CATO 55-04 (the link posted in a previous post) you will find the section authorized optional uniforms-non public funds.   Under this section it describes what uniforms are authorized for wear, even though they are not issued through the supply system. 
Listed is "CF combat clothing" although it is not issued, it is very much classified as a uniform and *not* as civi clothing as you stated.   The camo pattern of other countries or CADPAT look alike patterns would be classified as a civi patttern however, thus referring to my previous post, not entitled to wear cadet slip ons, head dress etc.

Also, you may have miscommunicated what you Sqn. actually does on an FTX but in Air Cadets today "playing soldier" or conducting training with any reference to war etc. are not allowed anymore.   Yes, it sounds cheesy but the orders are very clear.   So in short, your harmless fun is not what you should be doing on a weekend.

regards

pv


----------



## Kaziklu

Now I realize that I don't have my profile filled out thus I apperently have no opinion... 

But would not the CATO be revised should CADETPAT which is currently on hold from offically being adopted due to the inability to get the fabric across the boarder cheaply. Thus the CADETPAT *is* a civilian look alike at the current moment if anyone happens to actually have it.

That is a mute point I would think..

However if the Army Cadet League offically adopts it, then it would make sense that the CATO would be revised to included as offical wear.. personal opinion from what I have read on the subject.


----------



## Dane

The fabric issue was with the old company which has since folded.


----------



## Kaziklu

I was under the impression that the reason CANCAV folded was the issue with duty costs.. but I can't remember where I had read it.. no worries either way.. I've been back involved with the CCM for only 6 weeks now...and I'm still updating my self on the happening of the last 8 years.. So I'm bound to get something mixed up with it all going in my brain so fast.


----------



## Dane

It was duty on the fabric, they also had a ton of back orders never filled etc. Total gong show. Now it's run by a member of the ACL adding a certain level of accountability. Every cadets from 2381 thats ordered it has gotten it with in 2 weeks so they're doing well in that respect.


----------



## Kaziklu

Very cool. Then that would mean that it would be logical to assume that in the near future the CATO (at least for the Army Cadets) would be amended yes no? 

Actually I just double checked and it has been listed as authorized wear now listed as Field Uniform and Combat boots. 46-01 17f for Army Cadets. 

However why peoplekeep quoting 55-04 is beyond me as it is a Air Cadet specific CATO and the Air Cadets have not been Authorized to purchase the Army Cadet Field Uniform (CADETPAT is an unofficial designation I would assume) and it wearing with Cadet insignia is authorized as optional wear, as I previously stated, under CATO 46-06 17. f.


----------



## Dane

Pacific Region's reason for wanting us to wear cadet slip ons extends from the obcious, identification, but also insurance. Everyone loves insurance claims


----------



## Kaziklu

It make total sense as well as its rank as well  

I think insurance is also part of the reason the Marpat is used. If I recall MARPAT was designed for beach landings which is why there is more Sandy tan colours in the design then with US ARMY Woodland or CADPAT, thus in a Forest situation it's much easier to see a cadet while maintain cool factor to get them to buy it... (though that my just be rumour and speculation) 

For Air Cadets to be in Digipats they have to where something to make them more visible... nor can they wear Slips on anything but CF OD.

The Army Cadet CATO say the same thing but it is specifically listed the the Field Dress and CF OD and CADPAT are the only things Slips are to be worn on. And says it over two sections of 46-01 16, 17.f. but now Hit-me vests are ever needed

Where as for Air Cadets have only CF OD/CADPAT which they are to where Slips with. anything else is not to have slips put on them.. and if in the field may require Hit-me vests (obviously insurance reasons) CATO 55-04 16.e

And of course Sea Cadets make no mention of what is and isn't authorized for wear outside of the C-1 through 4 style dress. 

So I think the Conclusion of this would be easy to see. 

the Army Cadet League decided that a Field Dress uniform for Army Cadets (much like in the past) was needed. The choose a pattern that, possibly was easier to see in forested environment and in a digital pattern similar to CADPAT for LCF to encourage their purchase. They are not issued through public funds and the CATO revised to allow for the Field Dress to be worn with Slips.


----------



## Dane

You should have seen that CadetPAT at Vernon. A long held misconception is that Vernon has buildings. It does not. It's actually large accumulations of dust. The CadetPAT blends right into it and it's very hard to see.

Here in Vancouver with our awesome rain forest MARPAT just like you said isn't the best for cam/concealment.


----------



## ouyin2000

I feel, and i try to enforce this, that any type of military combat camouflage uniform, be it the old ODs, new CADPAT, or german flecktarn, etc, should have some sort of identifying tabs or badges or whatever on it, saying that the person wearing it is a cadet. It may be civilian clothing under the CATOs, but someone could easily mistake them for a military member, so a simple cadet slip on, or brassard works wonders


----------



## Kaziklu

it's not that something like flecktarn is going to cause someone to mistake a Cadet as a member of the military... it's that they might mistake them as a Representative of the Nation the Uniform is designed to emulate, or a DND endorsement of that design. Which is why the CATO is written that way. 

If Cadets wish to go out in the field with their slips on then CF OD, or the Field Dress would be proper. 

And when you think that Canada unlike the US, Britain, Oz, or New Zealand does not charge any money for Cadets.. so it really shouldn't be to much for the cadets to want to put up 120-140 dollars for a full set of Cadetpat field dress or CF OD's. 

(Not always possible obviously but in most cases there shouldn't be flecktarn in the field.. if they are going to buy Surplus at least by Canada's... Never understood it)

I'll go back to lurking now


----------



## ouyin2000

I have a cadet who used to wear flecktarn, they now have OD combats ;D That's why I used the example


----------



## PViddy

Yes, 55-04 is Air Cadet specific.  Army cadets are totally different.  55-04 was mentioned before because the topic at hand was whether Air Cadets would wear tthe same thing.  It's a good idea, maybe few years down the road once they get the Army program sorted out nationally.

cheers

PV


----------



## Kaziklu

Sorry it was late and I was confused for a moment.. I had missed your post in reference so I didn't specify. I was referring to much earlier by Bean saying it was the most clear..where as the Army Cadet regs are fairly clear. 

I agree with you statements about it being interesting to see if 55-04 is revised for the use of slip ons. 

Sorry about the confusion.


----------



## 1feral1

Kaziklu said:
			
		

> It make total sense as well as its rank as well
> 
> I think insurance is also part of the reason the Marpat is used. If I recall MARPAT was designed for beach landings which is why there is more Sandy tan colours in the design then with US ARMY Woodland or CADPAT, thus in a Forest situation it's much easier to see a cadet while maintain cool factor to get them to buy it... (though that my just be rumour and speculation)



The MARPAT used on these cadet uniforms is infact "MARPAT Woodland Pattern". It also comes in a desert format, which you can see on the news most nights.

Insurance aand seeing cadets in the bush is nonsense, and the pattern was developed for generic use in all areas less desert conditions. Beach landings have nothing to do with it. Yes, rumour is correct, and this one bleeds out right here and now.

I took the top pic about 10 days ago, and this is a Marine wearing his MARPAT Woodland, as he is examining an Indonesian SS2 V1 rifle as the Indonesian Kopasus soldier looks on.

Below is the US Army's ACU. These guys were getting a "soldier's five" on Australia's F88 Austeyr rifle. Note the Ranger in the old GI woodland cam. The US Army troops I was with had mixed qtys of the new ACU and the old GI woodland.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## PViddy

> Sorry about the confusion.



No worries  

awesome pics Wes, is that you in the DPM ?  ;D


cheers

PV


----------



## 1feral1

Nope, here is me on the left.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## ryanmann356

I dont understand why some people are upset about the field uniform looking too "American" when the Americans wore ODs before and after Vietnam.  Cadets have always worn ODs and Canadian soldiers wore ODs until the late 90s.  We sold the cadpat technology to the Americans and they have given their military "cadpat" as well (although in a few different varieties) but their army has desert camo's that look like canadian desert camo.  If I was a soldier in Afghanistan I would rather be well camouflaged and have a better chance of living than be worried about looking American.  The fact of the matter is that cadpat works, cadetpat works, marpat works, snowpat works etc.  ODs just dont do the job as well as the disruptive patterns do but in the end its all a matter of personal choice as to whether or not you like the cadetpat.


----------



## PViddy

> I would assume the complaints were more in regard to the fact that since cadets DONT have to hide from anyone and DONT use combat uniforms for their intended pupose, if the cadet league was going to produce a uniform for cadet use on camping trips it should at least be something that looked 'Canadian', like making new field uniforms in OD. Still seen by many as being a 'Canadian' colour for uniforms, and does not allow cadets to be confused with the CF. Would have been perfect, IMHO.
> 
> To be honest, I'd rather have cadets in CADPAT before this stuff (if I was still a cadet) seeing as you still are Canadian cadets. But thats just me, it really doesn't matter either way. I'd just assume that if cadets were going to have any sort of new military uniform, it would at least look somewhat Canadian. Oh well, I don't see many cadets buying this stuff when OD can be gotten cheaper.



my thoughts and position exactly.

cheers

PV


----------



## c.jacob

I had a cadet coming in with this new set of combats and we weren't to impressed.  It was a very thick material that doesn't breathe and the boots had air holes at the bottom.  They would be terrible in the field.


----------



## 1feral1

Craig Jacob said:
			
		

> I had a cadet coming in with this new set of combats and we weren't to impressed.   It was a very thick material that doesn't breathe and the boots had air holes at the bottom.   They would be terrible in the field.



Firstly, there is NOTHING wrong with the MARPAT material if its the real thing (50% cotton/50% nylon twill - check out the type of material used in the OC CF combat uniform, you'll be suprised), and if new, it can seem sort of stiff, like all new clothing. As for the holes you 'mention' in the boots, these have been in a variety of military footwear for over 40 years (with the exception of the Mk II family of Cdn combat boots) including the current Australian boots, and the US black tropical boots.

Have you ever worn combat boots after a creek crossing for example? You feet and boots can be wet for days, as compaired to the vented boots, even your socks are dry in a matter of hours, along with the boots. The disadvantage is your feet get wet a little easier in shallow water (or wet folliage at times), but again dry much faster. So, there is a purpose to the vents.

As for the quality of these boots, that might be another story, as I don't know, as they might be some cheap version of the real thing.


Wes


----------



## Dane

It is different material, and it was supposed to be changed. I'm washing my set for the first time right now, I'm wondering after I've done it a few times what will happen. And like you just said, they're jungle style boots, hense the holes. They're also garbage, also why I recomended you not purchase them.


----------



## Burrows

The material is like denim.


----------



## chrisf

Kaziklu said:
			
		

> it's not that something like flecktarn is going to cause someone to mistake a Cadet as a member of the military... it's that they might mistake them as a Representative of the Nation the Uniform is designed to emulate, or a DND endorsement of that design. Which is why the CATO is written that way.



Sorry, but I've got to butt in here for a moment...

Given that the average Joe Hoser Canadian is barely aware we have an army, and of those that are aware, not all of them are entirely aware of what our uniform looks like (Lots of people still think we're still in the old green uniform, some think we wear american cam uniforms, there's all sorts of misconceptions out there), any time anyone sees somone dressed up in combats, regardless of the origin of those combats, even if they're of a mixed nationality (say the top differs from the bottom), with a pair of black boots, that says to that person "army". Flat out.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

So in an effort to understand this cadetpat better I need to ask some questions. The cadets(specifically army cadets) are looking to approve a "camouflage" type of uniform to be worn on field type exercises. But this uniform will not be provided but rather an option to buy? So unless the cadet unit is based in a rich area, they will have some cadets dressed in an approved uniform they bought themselves and some wearing the equivalent of warm civillian clothing.

 IMHO there needs to be perhaps a fund raising drive to build a surplus of enough uniforms for all, so that you are not ostrasizing cadets just because they cant afford to buy "the approved" field uniform.


----------



## p_imbeault

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> The material is like denim.


I have a hard time believing any company would make a field uniform out of denim. I have yet to see the materials up close or see the washing tag but if they are made out of denim then I can't see why anyone would want to use them in the field.


----------



## p_imbeault

SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> So in an effort to understand this cadetpat better I need to ask some questions. The cadets(specifically army cadets) are looking to approve a "camouflage" type of uniform to be worn on field type exercises. But this uniform will not be provided but rather an option to buy? So unless the cadet unit is based in a rich area, they will have some cadets dressed in an approved uniform they bought themselves and some wearing the equivalent of warm civillian clothing.
> 
> IMHO there needs to be perhaps a fund raising drive to build a surplus of enough uniforms for all, so that you are not ostrasizing cadets just because they cant afford to buy "the approved" field uniform.



Isn't this the same case with the ODs? Most corps can't afford them for the entire corps, Cadets that come from families with a low income probably can't buy the ODs right now either, but they are allowed to wear them at the discretion of the OC of the Cadet Corps.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

Considering I wanted to sign up my son for cub scouts and they told me it would be 120$ for every second week, no uniform included, I think they should atleast put out a proposal.


----------



## chrisf

$120 for every second week? I've been out of scouts for quite a while, but I can't see it going up from a dollar for "dues" every week to $120 every two weeks... somone gave you the wrong numbers...


----------



## Burrows

p_imbeault said:
			
		

> I have a hard time believing any company would make a field uniform out of denim. I have yet to see the materials up close or see the washing tag but if they are made out of denim then I can't see why anyone would want to use them in the field.


One of my cadets wore the stuff.


----------



## Kaziklu

Well if the cadets,are going to charge $50 so that Cadets can get the field uniform.. why not just make the field uniform mandatory for purchase instead? (for Army Cadets of Course)


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

The yearly fee was 120$, plus additional costs for weekend outings etc. This particular scout unit only had one "qualified" adult leader who is a shiftworker and could only hold meetings every second week.

 Of course the yearly fees couldnt be reduced but to look at an organization such as this that really doesnt have alot of overhead cost and then to look at a more formal organization as the cadets, it makes you wonder.

 I dont really think that charging fees for cadets is the answer, but cadets have more resources available to them, things like fundraising, in order to equip their unit with niceties such as a "field" uniform for all their members. After all, what would the CF look like if we had the option of wearing what we wanted based on our personnal purchases?


----------



## c.jacob

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> Firstly, there is NOTHING wrong with the MARPAT material if its the real thing (50% cotton/50% nylon twill - check out the type of material used in the OC CF combat uniform, you'll be suprised), and if new, it can seem sort of stiff, like all new clothing. As for the holes you 'mention' in the boots, these have been in a variety of military footwear for over 40 years (with the exception of the Mk II family of Cdn combat boots) including the current Australian boots, and the US black tropical boots.
> 
> Have you ever worn combat boots after a creek crossing for example? You feet and boots can be wet for days, as compaired to the vented boots, even your socks are dry in a matter of hours, along with the boots. The disadvantage is your feet get wet a little easier in shallow water (or wet folliage at times), but again dry much faster. So, there is a purpose to the vents.
> 
> As for the quality of these boots, that might be another story, as I don't know, as they might be some cheap version of the real thing.
> 
> 
> Wes



   First of all I've been wearing CF combats for 10 years and I know what they can be like.  The combats I've seen are when they first came out with them.  It's quite possible they were modified recently.  Second of all.  There should be no reason that anyone's feet should be wet for days after a creek crossing.  I've done a few myself and a change of socks works wonders.


----------



## c.jacob

I'm not questioning his experience. In fact I welcome him or anyone else to challenge anything I say with personal experiences.   You are right that a person isn't alwys able to change socks everytime his feet gets sweaty or wet but being wet for days.   Think about how your feet would end up wearing the same socks for more than a day without getting wet.   You could barely walk.


----------



## Kaziklu

I'm fairly sure no one will argue with this but I'll say it anyway. 

Jungle style boots are most effective in a warm wet environment. If there is little to now chance of you going through water high enough to get into your boots but you might be going through puddles on a rainy early November day.. Jungle boots are going to leave you feet very cold and wet. 

However in late spring, summer or early falls you're feet with air out a bit better, and will dry fast if you are going in shin high water. But again if it's raining and the ground is saturated you are going to have wet miserable feet. 

So the type of boot that is useful is really dependent on what it is you are going to be doing. 

I wore Jungle Boots through about 3/4 of my Cadet life. after my first NAG weekend with pouring rain and two river crossings I realized why they are helpful. However I also learned very fast that if a weekend exercise was coming up and it was going to rain.. and there was little chance of a water crossing.. I filled the holes with a Silicon glue/epoxy that my father had which solved the ground water problem. 

Generally speaking in the four years or so of air cadets and year and a half of army I did my Jungle boots were a hindrance three times and a help twice.. however when they were a hindrance it was Early November and my feet ended up extremely cold and wet in Mid Western Ontario. If I hadn't brought the epoxy with me I might have had to go home as every step I took brought freezing cold water into my feet for the first night. I was the only one with Jungle boots and I was the only one with the problem. Though I was also the only one that could their boots on the next morning without 15 minutes in front of the fire pit to thaw them out. 
Just my two cents...


----------



## ouyin2000

2332Piper said:
			
		

> ...Back on topic, what has been the approved 'designator' for cadets wearing these new combats? Will one of the gold and black slip ons be appropriate or are they still asking for ya'll to wear the brassards?


Yes.

The issued rank slip ons are just about the only thing that is approved by all regions, camps, and units for a cadet to wear to identify themself. Pac Reg has allowed for brassards to be worn as long as it is clearly obvious that the person wearing it is a cadet.

And the rank slip ons are darn green and gold, not black. It is just about the same colour as the dress uniform tunic.


----------



## Dane

They are denim. It's not a point for debate, because they are


----------



## p_imbeault

They are really Denim?     
Those wont be to good in the winter, me thinks...
Are they like Heavy Jean Denim?


----------



## 1feral1

CMJ said:
			
		

> First of all I've been wearing CF combats for 10 years and I know what they can be like.   The combats I've seen are when they first came out with them.   It's quite possible they were modified recently.   Second of all.   There should be no reason that anyone's feet should be wet for days after a creek crossing.   I've done a few myself and a change of socks works wonders.



Well, Mr retired C/CWO, I wore combats for almost 19yrs, and used two generations of boots in the CF, plus two types of tropical boots. However, thats not including the almost 11yrs in the Army here, in the most awful tropical conditions you have only read about. I have NO cadet experience, so I guess my nearly 30yrs TI in two armies does not count.


----------



## c.jacob

OK.   I'm sorry.   I'm not going to continue to argue about this.   If you're willing to share your experience from the army then I'm willing to learn. But all I was doing was sharing a story from my experience and I get my head bitten off for it and givien the atttitude that I know nothing.  I got my back up about it and again I'm sorry.   Truce?


----------



## 1feral1

No need to appologise, but good on ya for setting the facts straight. It was not your knowledge and experience that was challenged, but your wording suggested a bit of an attitude, and that's what gave you some flak on here by a few pers. 

You no doubt have some valued experience in your time in the cadet movement, which is notable and should be utilised effectivly, and passed on to others who it would benifit. Mate, you are 20 yrs old, and an adult. I am not passing judgement on you at all. I just responded to a post which which I (and others) got the same 'message' from.

Regards,

Wes

 :cheers:


----------



## c.jacob

Thanks.  I'm glad we could clear the air on that.  I just have a question for you regarding the boots.  When you have holes in the bottom like that, how do you keep your feet from getting wet when dealing with stuff like dew on the grass and stuff in the morning?

Have a nice day


----------



## 1feral1

Mate to answer your question, in my experience with the US green canvas sided issued J-boots, situations like dew in grass etc, your feet don't really get wet, not even damp. As you walk and move around, your generating heat, and burning off the moisture all the time. Plus the canvas sides also breath and dicipate the moisture and heat.

I had used this US boot in some beach landings at Nelson Bay (a major area used by the US is practicing beach assaults for their island campaign against the Japs in WW2) to the south of here, and a few hours later my feet were entirely dry.

Of course being 32C by 0800 and sunny may have helped, but the boots worked, and they have their place today, but not in western Ontario in mid November.

Regards,

Wes


----------



## c.jacob

Oh.  That's pretty interesting.


----------



## 1feral1

Don't know if its interesting, but just answering your question  ;D.

Regards,

Wes


----------



## Kaziklu

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Thats why they are called 'Jungle' boots, they are meant for warm and wet environments. Thats why you also have WWB's for colder, wetter weather and a general purpose boot for spring/fall/summer/garrison conditions.
> 
> But in actuality, what you wear boot wise really should be up to you (within limits). I've seen guys wear Mk 111's in winter and WWB's in the heat of summer because thats what they find most comfortable (and won't/can't go and buy non-issue boots). But for a cadet activity, Mk 111's should suffice most of the time.



That was my point so why in the world would the League approve a boot that is designed for tropical wear if it is going to be open to buy to all Army Cadets across the country. Won't it result in wet feet for cadets and more issues if they start taking these on fall and spring exercises? There are always a few Cadets (sorry kidos) are generally stupid when it comes to their kit and won't think ahead and bring weather proper foot wear.

Does anyone have a picture of the boots?

Edit Wes ya I agree I believe I wore the same..type of boot (I was given them by my sqn my first year as a cadet for selling 25 packs of raffle tickets) Never had a problem with the dew.. however if it rained and the ground was saturated you did get enough seepage to cause issue. Which it often did.. the November Experience was about the weekend after Remembrance Day as I recall and it had rained and then snowed.. and got up to about 5 degrees that after noon... meaning everything was wet and slushy. 
During May Niagara Air Group Weekends it often rained almost all weekend and the ground would just saturate with Waters almost every step was a puddle. Again wet feet. 

However when we did our River walk (100m in the river) those of us with Jungle boots were dry fairly quickly. and didn't need to worry about changing our socks... 

It's a good piece of kit.. but for Cadet purposes not really effective as they are more then likely pose a greater potential for causing problems in certain conditions then helping. At least as the standard boots for the Cadet Field Dress.. 

Though I'm very quickly learning that the choices by the leagues often seem like to be kinda random.


----------



## ryanmann356

it just depends on where you live, if you live in an area like Vernon jungle or desert boots are fine for the summer and 'Nam boots for the winter (I dont know what they're actually called I refer to the boots you get at surplus stores and issued at CSTCs.  We called them 'Nam boots when I went to Venron)  If you live in an area like Vanouver where it rains alot 'Nam boots are good to wear all year round.  I tell my cadets that if they order Cadetpat to not order the boots because they wouldnt be effective in the areas where we have FTXs.  I have worn 'Nam boots since I joined and find them quite effective.  Sorry about the slang I just dont know the actual name of the boots


----------



## Kaziklu

I could understand 'nam boots as slang for Jungle boots (which I believe is slang anyway) as they were most famously used their by the US. 

The only thing I have against Jungle boots is in soft grass and heavy rain, or exercises in wet weather under 10 C as sadly you can't trust all the cadets to use proper judgement about the boots and could get frost bitten our the chills in those conditions(not to mention blisters). Outside of that I love 'em... just not appropriate for Cadets on a national basis which is what the Field Uniform is supposed to be. Which is too bad.


----------



## ryanmann356

Thanks for the correction.  We called them 'Nam boots because they kinda look like the ones they used in Vietnam.  I like the newer ones they're issuing with the padding around the top, the steel toe and the welts around the edges.  They look comfertable.  I beleive they're made by CAT but I could be wrong.


----------



## Dane

Cadets in Vernon are issued them for Pioneer.


----------



## ouyin2000

Actually the pioneer course's boots were not "issued" through the system, so to speak. They were bought by the camp stores specifically for the course cadets and staff.


----------



## ryanmann356

I dont actually know what theyre called I just know they're made by CAT.  My assistant platoon commander in Vernon had a pair that was issued to her by her corps, a few of my officers have them, they probably have a hardened toe or something like that.  Sorry for any false info I was just trying to describe them.  But I have seen members of the reg/reserve/CIC force wearing them, I wasnt trying to post any incorrect information I was just saying that I liked the boots because they looked comfortable


----------



## p_imbeault

Yea its a composite mateiral in the toe, just as strong as steel but won't draw cold to it, and its a fraction of the weight of steel toe, we sell ones very similar to the ones I saw at VACSTC at the clothing and workwear store I work at.


----------



## Dane

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> I dont actually know what theyre called I just know they're made by CAT.   My assistant platoon commander in Vernon had a pair that was issued to her by her corps, a few of my officers have them, they probably have a hardened toe or something like that.   Sorry for any false info I was just trying to describe them.   But I have seen members of the reg/reserve/CIC force wearing them, I wasnt trying to post any incorrect information I was just saying that I liked the boots because they looked comfortable



They aren't issued. The uniforms they're wearing aren't issued, they're temp loans.


----------



## ryanmann356

ok sorry she said they were issued  :


----------



## ouyin2000

I just talked with my friend who was Pioneer staff, and they got issued steel toed safety boots. This is confirmed.


----------



## ryanmann356

yeah those are the ones, the WWB boots.  thanks for the correction.  Those cadpat boots look pretty cool too.


----------



## ouyin2000

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> yeah those are the ones, the WWB boots.   thanks for the correction.   Those cadpat boots look pretty cool too.


No they're not...if you bothered to read my post...


----------



## ryanmann356

I was talking about the post piper put up, not the pioneer boots.


----------



## ryanmann356

Yeah I thought I saw a pair in a mountain equipment co-op or something like that, but surplus stores also carry those types of boots, and one of my cadets has a pair of those and he says they're quite comfortable.  I'm considering getting a pair for myself, they appear to provide more ankle support.


----------



## ryanmann356

Buying brand new boots isnt a great idea though.  New boots squeak and squawk.  I had a new pair once and had to exchange them because i kept getting caught on night ex's cause they were so squeeky lol.


----------



## D-n-A

Not all boots squeak when new. Either way, you should break them in before wearing them for the field, etc


----------



## ryanmann356

yes of course break them in  : I was talking about my first pair when i was new and didnt know anything


----------



## Heslip

Whoa I haven't been logged in in a while and just wanted to see some of your guys views on the whole cadetpat deal:

This is my view on the whole idea:

Sure its nice for a company to create a new "combat" uniform for cadets and all but i mean if your going to do it do it right or dare i say it don't do it at all. I mean the cons out weigh the Pros big time in my opinion here is a summary of what i have heard from my cadets and fellow Sr's of other corps.

Pro's:
- Pattern is fine No real complaints.
- Different in its own respects from Cadpat which personally i think is a good idea.

Con's:
- Poor material too stiff 
- Does not apprear to be to quick drying
- Very poor attempt at creating Draw strings in the waist and hip
- Velcro
- One way Zipper
- Buttons are too small
- Buttons are almost white on some uniforms
- Boots not Waterproof or resistant
- boots made of vinyl like material 
- Pants have no sand traps
- Pants have no blousing strings
- Rucksack If you can even call it that has no attempt at double seems or water repelant
- ruck is too small
- Boonie Cap could use some work on the threading
- Threads loose everywhere when it is new
- and i hear it fades rather quickly if washed in normal washer??

So as you can see it was an honest attempt to create a new uniform but personally i believe that cadets would be better of physically in the OD. Plus a set of OD costs less than it and you can get new sets in packages now from various surplus stores. so people saying it is hard to find OD area really not even looking, and just want to wear cadpat.

That Brings up another point, I personally have had no trouble with cadets in the field with OD in fact until reading some of the posts on here i thought it was uniform. All our cadets Are encouraged to get a full set if not two of the OD. But Cadpat i personally believe Should only be given to the Reg, Res, and maybe CIC and I have conflicting emotions about CIC

Any way thats My two cents so feel free to rip it apart or analyze it or what have you.:argument:

HESLIP  

P.S. If some of my information is wrong Please email me @ c4thrule@hotmail.com so that i can get my facts straight



PPS I peronally would love to get my hands onto some German Mountainboots i think they were called lowas or something they were awsome. nice like MEC but all black and army issue. i think they also have Para boots with high ankle support like our mk III's


----------



## Dane

I'd agree with pretty much all of that. I wish they'd just change the material and everything would be good.

I have just washed mine 5 times in succession (I'm trying to conserve water as you can tell) and they still look fine, albeit I dry them on cold only for a short period of time. 

MOD: Just because you use symbols, doesn't mean its not swearing.


----------



## ryanmann356

the cadetpat would be ok if they made it out of the material actual cadpat was made out of, or even ODs.  But theres nothing wrong with wearing the cadetpat in the winter when its colder and ODs in the summer when its hotter.  That way even if it does fade, it wont fade as quickly and the cadetpat is warmer so it would be better suited for the winter.


----------



## ouyin2000

Heslip said:
			
		

> Whoa I haven't been logged in in a while...(edit: blah blah blah, I don't feel like quoting the whole damn thing...)


You should send this off to the company that is making the CadetPat, with a CC to the army cadet league BC branch.


----------



## p_imbeault

Ryanmann I'd have to disagree with you, if the CadetPat material is made of denim, or a similar cotton material it wouldn't be very good for winter, think about it, would you wear jeans when its -0 out, with snow on the ground. What happens when they get wet, and freeze? Cotton absorbs water like an SOB.


----------



## Dane

p_imbeault said:
			
		

> Ryanmann I'd have to disagree with you, if the CadetPat material is made of denim, or a similar cotton material it wouldn't be very good for winter, think about it, would you wear jeans when its -0 out, with snow on the ground. What happens when they get wet, and freeze? Cotton absorbs water like an SOB.



-0, Vancouver?


----------



## Heslip

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> You should send this off to the company that is making the CadetPat, with a CC to the army cadet league BC branch.


Mayb i will send it. Not that it will make really any difference i mean we are dealling with Government are we not?


----------



## p_imbeault

Dane said:
			
		

> -0, Vancouver?


So these CadetPat field uniforms are only to be used in Vancover and area?
BTW do you guys even get snow there?


----------



## p_imbeault

Armyboi, I was refering to the climate.  :blotto:


----------



## PViddy

> As far as I know it's authorized for all cadets to wear... But it will take a while to get it out to all of the surplus stores and corps.



Right now just army cadets, unless you classify it as civi's...well we already went through this.

cheers

PV


----------



## ouyin2000

You should still send it. The more people that suggest changes, the better chance we have of improving it.


----------



## p_imbeault

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> You should still send it. The more people that suggest changes, the better chance we have of improving it.



I concure


----------



## Heslip

can you send me an email adress?


----------



## Dane

You are NOT dealing with the government. It is fully private and commissioned by a Society (ACL), not the DND.

the website with contact info is www.armycadetleague.bc.ca


----------



## ryanmann356

its not just for army cadets in Vancouver, everyone in pac region can wear it as far as I know.


----------



## q_1966

sombody awhile back made a statement about wearing a brassard on this uniform, you cant, the CDN. Flag is sewn on and theres no cloth flap on the shoulder


----------



## condor888000

Two words: safety pin.


----------



## ryanmann356

I dont think they have the slip ons made yet.  You could go and buy a regular cadpat slip on from a surplus store and just wear that.  They issued the CSMs in Vernon the cadpat ones.


----------



## Burrows

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> I dont think they have the slip ons made yet.  You could go and buy a regular cadpat slip on from a surplus store and just wear that.  They issued the CSMs in Vernon the cadpat ones.


Because, you know.  Wearing the CADET issued slip-ons is so hard.


----------



## p_imbeault

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> I dont think they have the slip ons made yet.   You could go and buy a regular cadpat slip on from a surplus store and just wear that.   They issued the CSMs in Vernon the cadpat ones.


I dont think that would sit well with CF members.


----------



## ouyin2000

p_imbeault said:
			
		

> I dont think that would sit well with CF members.


Probably not, but in Pac Region, all you have to do is have a CADET tab sewn on to the slip on, and it is allowed. Whether the CF members like it or not.


----------



## BeenThereSeenThat

Big Foot said:
			
		

> Question, why is he wearing a real CF MWO slip on?



Not sure of why a cadet would be wearing badges that in fact are not cadet issue. What I have been told is that he should have been wearing the normal Cadet MWO slip-ons. Leave the Cadpat badges to the Regs and Reserves. What badge on this MWO is to identify him as being a cadet and not a Reg/Res? Maybe his beret badge, but that is even not cadet issue. Cadet beret badges are metal according to NDHQ. It seems like cadets wear whatever they feel like these days.
Have seen cadets in German Marquardt & Schulz pattern, American Woodland, British/Dutch DPM, South Korean and even South Vietnamese Tiger Stripes combats. It makes for a very interesting 3rd world revolutionary look.


----------



## Dane

BeenThereSeenThat said:
			
		

> Cadet beret badges are metal according to NDHQ. It seems like cadets wear whatever they feel like these days.



You're incorrect. The badge was created, like embriodered CF badges for senior NCOs, officer for Cadets in leadership roles. They are distributed from D Cdts to CSTCs as requested. Vernon didn't even have enough this summer and they were flown in from Ottawa.

Also, I'd argue Cadets are doing the best now that they've ever done following the dress regulations properly. At least in the last few years.

Do you have any other examples of Cadets wearing whatever they want?


----------



## ryanmann356

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Because, you know.   Wearing the CADET issued slip-ons is so hard.


Or you can wear that, but it wouldnt be practical in the field when your trying to hide.


----------



## p_imbeault

What are you hiding from?  
Anyway if you feel it is so necessary to completely conceal yourself why not take off the epaulet and stick it in your pocket until your done "hiding".


----------



## Dane

p_imbeault said:
			
		

> What are you hiding from?
> Anyway if you feel it is so necessary to completely conceal yourself why not take off the epaulet and stick it in your pocket until your done "hiding".



Cam/.Concealment is still a Cadet PO... while obviously some of you feel it's a joke many Corps enjoy it and it adds interest to their training.


----------



## p_imbeault

Dane try as I might I have just scanned quickly over the RCAC Refernce Book, and could not find Cam and Concealment anywhere. What is the PO #? In my 3 years as a Army Cadet I've never actually been given a lesson on Cam and Concealment, I've know the basics from using the Internet and applied it a couple times hunting, but figured that it was long gone from the Cadet Movment, but maybe I just missed it.


----------



## Dane

p_imbeault said:
			
		

> Dane try as I might I have just scanned quickly over the RCAC Refernce Book, and could not find Cam and Concealment anywhere. What is the PO #? In my 3 years as a Army Cadet I've never actually been given a lesson on Cam and Concealment, I've know the basics from using the Internet and applied it a couple times hunting, but figured that it was long gone from the Cadet Movment, but maybe I just missed it.



The ref book isn't a complete guide to Army Cadet training. 

Like the patrolling you do in CLI (I don't know if they do it in CL anymore, I didn't go on the FTX) it fits into the catagory of:
- taught only at the CSTC
- or lessons that still exist in the programme's MLP but aren't really easily accessible (like Cadets hunting).


----------



## ouyin2000

p_imbeault said:
			
		

> Dane try as I might I have just scanned quickly over the RCAC Refernce Book, and could not find Cam and Concealment anywhere. What is the PO #? In my 3 years as a Army Cadet I've never actually been given a lesson on Cam and Concealment, I've know the basics from using the Internet and applied it a couple times hunting, but figured that it was long gone from the Cadet Movment, but maybe I just missed it.



He's right. Cam and Concealment used to be part of Fieldcraft, which went the way of the dodo, when they brought in the new Reference and Star pams, and got rid of the plastic covered, ringed, monstrosities.

Now it is mostly taught from memory by a dying race of senior ncos that remember those old books.


----------



## Dane

Argh I can't modify my posts b/c I was bad... so here's another post...

If you take a look at CSTC Course Training Plans (I'm not sure if they're online?) it's a very good way to see a lot of Army Cadet Training material that isn't covered in the reference book or at the LHQ's annual Cadet Training Plan. 

If you can't find them they're available at Pubs in Proffesional Development at VACSTC in the summer.


----------



## BeenThereSeenThat

Dane said:
			
		

> You're incorrect. The badge was created, like embriodered CF badges for senior NCOs, officer for Cadets in leadership roles. They are distributed from D Cdts to CSTCs as requested. Vernon didn't even have enough this summer and they were flown in from Ottawa.
> 
> Also, I'd argue Cadets are doing the best now that they've ever done following the dress regulations properly. At least in the last few years.
> 
> Do you have any other examples of Cadets wearing whatever they want?



Thank you for the reply to the cap badge issue. After just talking to a contact at Corporate Services at DCdts here in Ottawa. Corporate Services deals with all badges and uniforms for the cadet leagues. They informed me that this badge is not from them, nor is issued from Logistiks in Montreal. Now this leaves the question of where the cap badge is from?


----------



## c.jacob

BeenThereSeenThat said:
			
		

> Thank you for the reply to the cap badge issue. After just talking to a contact at Corporate Services at DCdts here in Ottawa. Corporate Services deals with all badges and uniforms for the cadet leagues. They informed me that this badge is not from them, nor is issued from Logistiks in Montreal. Now this leaves the question of where the cap badge is from?



  If these are not allowed how come there are so many out there?  Every Cadet Sergeant Major in Blackdown had one.  At least when I was in cadets.  I'm not arguing any points, just asking the question.  I haven't seen the CATO's on it.


----------



## Dane

BeenThereSeenThat said:
			
		

> Thank you for the reply to the cap badge issue. After just talking to a contact at Corporate Services at DCdts here in Ottawa. Corporate Services deals with all badges and uniforms for the cadet leagues. They informed me that this badge is not from them, nor is issued from Logistiks in Montreal. Now this leaves the question of where the cap badge is from?



It comes from D Cdts... I assume that a "big" organization but the badges get sent straight to the CSTCs from D Cdts, apparently they shouldn't be in the supply system of the individual CSTCs. They come in the same "baggie" as an RCACC "cookie cutter" (the brass you refered to in the original post) but I obviously didn't keep that. It probably had a # on it that could be used to find it. I would assume they made a large quantity at once, or else it would be a waste of money. RMNACSTC, VACSTC, BCSTC all use them, I think Valcartier does too. Not sure about the rest. 

As a side not in my searches for pictures of the CSMs at Argo I noticed Cadets doing unsheethed sword drill. What's up with that?

... and I just looked and in 2004 argo wasn't using them. I think they came out in 2002 or 2003? Or that's when I first noticed them.


----------



## ouyin2000

The first use of the cloth RCACC cap badge that I remember is in 2003.


----------



## Dane

Perhaps some one on this board will be a senior SCdt at a CSTC and can get us that number, wouldn't that be fun? LOL


----------



## BeenThereSeenThat

Dane said:
			
		

> It comes from D Cdts... I assume that a "big" organization but the badges get sent straight to the CSTCs from D Cdts, apparently they shouldn't be in the supply system of the individual CSTCs. They come in the same "baggie" as an RCACC "cookie cutter" (the brass you refered to in the original post) but I obviously didn't keep that. It probably had a # on it that could be used to find it. I would assume they made a large quantity at once, or else it would be a waste of money. RMNACSTC, VACSTC, BCSTC all use them, I think Valcartier does too. Not sure about the rest.
> 
> As a side not in my searches for pictures of the CSMs at Argo I noticed Cadets doing unsheethed sword drill. What's up with that?
> 
> ... and I just looked and in 2004 argo wasn't using them. I think they came out in 2002 or 2003? Or that's when I first noticed them.



Okay here is the latest on this famous wire beret badge. The only badge that is issued directly from DCdts is the Air Cadet Wings, all badges are issued via Logistiks in Montreal. The same place the uniforms and every other cadet badge comes from. CSTC's get there badges from Logistiks.

The badge was not manufactured by Grant Emblems, which manufactures the badges for the cadet movement. But, have seen the badge on a sales flyer for a company in Thunder Bay ($7.50 each). Which makes badges for kit shop and not for DCdts. They also in the past made Army Cadet bush cap badges and Cadet combat shoulder titles. They were even making rank badges in Cadpat until the Director of Intellectual Property (DIP-5 NDHQ) stopped them.

Has anyone seen this badge outside of the Pacific Region being worn or is it a badge that someone at Regional had made up?


----------



## ryanmann356

are these the cap badges worn by the CSMs in Vernon?


----------



## ouyin2000

BeenThereSeenThat said:
			
		

> ...Has anyone seen this badge outside of the Pacific Region being worn or is it a badge that someone at Regional had made up?


Did you even bother to read what it was you quoted at all???
[quote author=Dane]
*RMNACSTC, VACSTC, BCSTC all use them, I think Valcartier does too. Not sure about the rest.*
[/quote]

[quote author=ryanmann356]
are these the cap badges worn by the CSMs in Vernon?
[/quote]
Yes, and also by some Civilian Instructors.


----------



## PViddy

> are these the cap badges worn by the CSMs in Vernon?
> 
> Yes, and also by some Civilian Instructors.



Umm....whisky tango foxtrot over.  Definately not allowed.

PV


----------



## ouyin2000

PViddy said:
			
		

> Umm....whisky tango foxtrot over.   Definately not allowed.
> 
> PV


Then tell that to the CO. I am just relaying what I have experienced.


----------



## Pte Joker

Cadetpat sucks real CADPAT is much better and it's not that hard to get i already have a real CADPAT combat jacket and pants and i got it all in about 2 months all you have to do is go to your local surplus and ask the them if they can keep an eye out for it that is if you want th real stuff it's alot but still one of the best


----------



## Burrows

Pte Joker said:
			
		

> Cadetpat sucks real CADPAT is much better and realy it's not that hard to get i already have a real CADPAT combat jacket and pants and i got it all in about 2 months all you have to do is go to your local surplus and ask the them if they can keep an eye out for it


 Are you speaking from experience, or just tooling?


----------



## Pte Joker

my friend used it for Airsoft  and he said it sucked and plus real CADPAT is better only bad thing i find it's itchy


----------



## ouyin2000

Pte Joker said:
			
		

> my friend used it for Airsoft   and he said it sucked and plus real CADPAT is better only bad thing i find it's itchy






			
				Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> Are you speaking from experience, or just tooling?



So in other words, no.


----------



## Sgt_McWatt

Pte Joker said:
			
		

> my friend used it for Airsoft   and he said it sucked and plus real CADPAT is better only bad thing i find it's itchy



What do you find is itchy aoubt CADPAT?


----------



## PViddy

.....and we should change the DEU uni's to lycra speed skating suits....ahhh, errr, umm i mean what!?

I wouldn't doubt that CADPAT is better than CADETPAT, it's called years of R & D.  And if you think it is itchy, their is somthing wrong, i like to compare it to silk pajamas over the old OD's.  IMHO.

cheers

PV


----------



## 1feral1

Pte Joker said:
			
		

> my friend used it for Airsoft   and he said it sucked and plus real CADPAT is better only bad thing i find it's itchy



Airsoft? Enough said, and secondly, itchy? Maybe if its new, so try washing it (??). It aint itchy at all. Maybe its just your sensitve skin.

Bloody hell Joker, your 3rd post mate. Take a few seconds to think before you put it to paper. BTW, I had a squizz at your msn profile, and mentioning quotes of 'joining the army, going to exotic lands to kill people', and 'shooting random things' is one of the most outright irresponsible, foolish and childish things I have seen for a while (especially coming from a member of the RCACC), believe me, there is nothing glorious about death or dying, and the wanton irresponsible use of firearms is no way to promote yourself in a positive format. If I was your parents, or your teacher, I'd be making note of this behaviour, and if you continue, you'll be well on your way to having some serious issues when you are older. 

Time to wake up!

Wes


----------



## ryanmann356

I agree.


----------



## ouyin2000

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> I agree.


Thank you for your contribution to the forums, and this conversation in particular.


----------



## Burrows

Piper said:
			
		

> I think Flecktarn is the best one ever.
> 
> And the CF should all be issued Dragunov's.
> 
> :



So ya, I woz running round d' otha day wif my homiez from da marine core and we waz shootin r dragunovs at dem civvi types loel.


----------



## qyrang

this looks so cheesy why can't we wear well made cadpat replicates instead of buying this stuff. My old dsm had two real tac vests and he was allowed to wear them. I also was told that you can have actual cadpat but just don't wear it down on a base or in garrison. Is this true, if it is where can i get a tac vest other than on ebay?


----------



## Big Foot

Erm, why do cadets need tacvests? I mean honestly, save your money. If you want one that badly, wait a couple years until you're 16, join the reserves and get issued one. On that note, you can't legally buy tacvests.


----------



## Scott

qyrang, 

Welcome to Army.ca! I ask that you please do some searching on the subject of Cadets with CADPAT as well as field gear. You should find that alot of those threads get taken down because they turn into flame wars and wastes of bandwidth.

Please read what Big Foot wrote, it's good advice and he raised a very valid point, one that can be searched to find numerous topics on. Cadets have zero *need* for field kit so why do they want it. I can find no other answer but the "Look Cool Factor"

All, the above is not meant to touch off yet another debate over Cadets needing to be kitted out and armed to the teeth so please do not attempt to start one.


----------



## The_Falcon

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> _If you want to buy it, then buy it.
> 
> If you don't want to, then it's not *required*._
> 
> Is this something that the CF members AND cadets can agree on?



Umm, buying/receiving a CF issued tacvest (among other items) from Ebay or other sources is ILLEGAL unless you are in the RegF or PRes and you have been ISSUED said items.  Armyvern has pointed this out SEVERAL times.  There are also several criminal code offences that you could be charged with if caught.  And even if your local constabulary doesn't come hunt you down and charge you, there are still the issues of the lack of integrity and honesty you would be displaying by purchasing or "acquiring" these items.  

If you really are jonesing to be the coolest little cadet on the block and have all sort of kit that is low on practical applications for cadets but high in look cool factor, than by all means go and buy the aftermarket stuff as Piper suggested.  You get to look just like a wannabe and avoid running afoul of the law.


----------



## Kaziklu

I have a serious question
what are you carring around with you on a camping trip where you are doing the some in field training that would require this? 

I mean you'll have some rope, a compass, a map, pencil, first aid kit, pad of paper, possibly a knife, a flash light and/or glow sticks, matches, water, maybe a snack. and a Survival kit... 

Now first aid and survival kit would go in a pack not a tacvest. cargo pockets will hold the rest very neatly. at most I could undersand a web belt. but not a full tack vest. you aren't carring anything that would justify it and just makes you needlessly bulky. Outside of LCF what is the justification..


----------



## Burrows

Keep this about CADETPAT revisions, any further talk of CADPAT how cadets don't need it, etc, will result in a lock.


----------



## ryanmann356

Its the way it is.  Take it or leave it, anyway look on the bright side, the cadetpat is designed for army cadets and army cadets only and at least its not like the old cancav design, with the pockets on the arms. With that stuff you cant even roll up the sleeves  : thats the stuff the Marines are using.  Cadetpat is the same material but a more conventional design. 
Pros:  good for winter, better camouflage, looks good, durable
Cons:  bad material, strange sizes
thats how I see it anyway.


----------



## yoman

Piper said:
			
		

> That comment is funny, simply because there is a huge thread about why the new combats the CF wears should have pockets on the sleeves....and then you cadets come around and say you don't want them.
> 
> I find it funny, and I really don't know why.



Because we are not the ones who know what the CF really needs...


----------



## Fishbone Jones

yoman said:
			
		

> Because we are not the ones who knows what the CF really needs...



Bingo!!!


----------



## yoman

Piper said:
			
		

> Maybe I should start using those emoticons more often.  :



That you should  

I knew what you were saying I just thought I'd point that out.


----------



## ryanmann356

I just recieved a set of the cadetpat field uniform and I am very pleased with it.  I find it functional and practical for cadet use.  I am very pleased with the uniform and I highly recommend it.  I found that after a wash in some fabric softener the material was very comfertable and breatheable.


----------



## Dane

Im going to be honest there are several pages of this thread I haven't read, so perhaps this is old news.......

but *they changed the buttons!!!* Now they're just black. Looks way better.


----------



## FuBaR

Do you purchase this through your corp?  And how much does it cost?

Really Sorry if both of those were already answered.


----------



## ouyin2000

You need to order them through the Army Cadet League (BC Branch) website.

http://www.armycadetleague.bc.ca/CadetPatUniform/cadet_pattern_field_gear.htm

You can either order it by yourself, or maybe convince your unit SupO to order them for the corps, depending on funds.


----------



## Thompson_JM

i notice there is nowhere to put the cadet slip-ons...

any idea why that is?

seems like it would be helpfull to be able to know the cadets rank.. even while camping, er FTX's  >


----------



## ouyin2000

Maybe someone who has one in their posession can clarrify, but I am certain there is an epaulette on the chest.

The CSMs at Vernon Army CSTC wore rank slip ons.


----------



## Thompson_JM

my bad.. I missed it in the picture.


----------



## darmil

The CADETPAT looks more like MARPAT to me.


----------



## ouyin2000

MikeH said:
			
		

> The CADETPAT looks more like MARPAT to me.


That's because it is loosely based on the MARPAT colour pattern


----------



## Lerch

Pretty much, it's a CADPAT uniform (is their a pattern designation?) made with repro MARPAT fabric. Hence why the fabric is heavier.

Since nametapes are being made, are rankslides going to be produced in CADetPAT too?


----------



## Excolis

loosy based on the MARPAT?   that is basically the MARPAT..   and why would we want canadian cadets looking like marines?  nothing against marines, i have many friends that are marines, but i think this is rediculous.  my personal opinion is if you want to wear a combat uniform get the ones that look like the canadian style at least. www.cpgear.com


----------



## Scott

I thought that the whole idea of giving Cadets something of their own to wear (CADETPAT) was so that they:

a) Have a field uniform to wear.

b) To identify them as Cadets compared to members of the Regs or PRes.

All the talk about looks is just that, talk. If it covers yer precious ones or twos and keeps you warm then what's the worry? They did not design the new field wear for the CF based on "looks" or aesthetic appeal, they designed them to serve a purpose.

As well, why buy your own gear from CP? You are provided CADETPAT at reduced cost or for free, are you not?

And while I am in this thread let me mention that we like proper spelling, grammar, sentence structure and punctuation. Thanks.


----------



## MikeL

armoured soon said:
			
		

> and why would we want canadian cadets looking like marines?



They don't look anything like a US Marine.


Its a good uniform for Cadet, for the reasons Scott and Piper mentioned.


----------



## c.jacob

The uniform reminds me of the old Kiddy Combats we used to have to wear at camp. Except with a digital camouflage design.


----------



## Excolis

i still say that the uniform looks just like the marines, and i just dont wouldn’t want them looking like marines (personal thought).  as for having them look like the "real" thing and wear the CAPAT version, i am not all for that either.  i do agree that getting the cadets in a uniform so everyone looks the same, and having some kit that is effective is a great.  now as for punctuation and all that, i am at work and i dont get a chance to proof read and edit my posts, i type and send, so get over it.


----------



## MikeL

Yea, its the same camo pattern, but the design of the uniform is Canadian.

I highly doubt anyone will think a Canadian Army Cadet is a US Marine just because the camo pattern is the same as MARPAT. Plus the CADETPAT uniform has a Canadian flag on it.

Cadet
http://www.armycadetleague.bc.ca/CadetPatUniform/HPIM0183.JPG 

US Marines 
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Marine-Basic-Training-2005/aab.sized.jpg


----------



## Scott

armoured soon said:
			
		

> now as for punctuation and all that, i am at work and i dont get a chance to proof read and edit my posts, i type and send, so get over it.



No, I won't, it's clearly stated in the guidelines that you will pay attention to those things. Welcome to the warning system.

Edited to add: Everyone else does their level best to post properly in here, I want to keep it that way.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

armoured soon said:
			
		

> i still say that the uniform looks just like the marines, and i just dont wouldn’t want them looking like marines (personal thought).  *as for having them look like the "real" thing and wear the CAPAT version, i am not all for that either. *  i do agree that getting the cadets in a uniform so everyone looks the same, and having some kit that is effective is a great.  now as for punctuation and all that, i am at work and i dont get a chance to proof read and edit my posts, i type and send, so get over it.



So I guess, if your CIC, you'd be turning in your CADPATS? I know CIC are Reservists, but shouldn't they dress like their charges?


----------



## Thompson_JM

Piper said:
			
		

> Which is funny, because most CF members DON'T like having cadets confused with CF members (like wearing CADPAT) so the cadet league goes and gets a new distinct pattern for cadets (IMHO a good idea).



IMHO a GREAT idea!

I don't know why they didn't just try and find a way to get more OD Combats out there, but at the same time, this is a good compromise. durable material which helps give a sense of uniformity on Corps FTX's, as well as giving the Cadets something with a decent LCF. besides, at least when I was in Connaught, any cadet, CI, or Staff Cadet on that camp was ISSUED x2 OD Cbt Shirt and Pants, + boots. so one thing to keep in mind is that when you go away for the summer, Cadets Canada will issue out a whole whack of kit for you to use while you're there. 

Remember, there is no such thing as the perfect solution, this seems to be the best option for those kids who want to be Gung Ho and wear Camo. Gear...

cheers
    josh


*edit*  yeah, basically just echoing what Piper said... Darn it Piper, you beat me to the Punch!


----------



## FuBaR

I think its a great idea for Cadets to have a uniform to wear when out on FTX's.  I feel we need to something to separate us from just a bunch of kids in the park.  I dont think what the uniform what even matter what it looked like, whether it be Cadetpat or Cadpat.  The people who dont know the difference at seeing a Cadet in Cadpat versus a Reservist/Regular in Cadpat will not make a separation because the pattern is different.  Instead of continuing to punish those who could wear the Cadpat in a respectable matter, I would love to se corps, esecpially mine, hehe, give this Cadetpat a try.


----------



## futuresoldier

Well, my opinion is that all we need is good ol' O/D's. They're cheap and have a good design, and the material dries very fast. As for Cadets who want to go waste their money on some CADPAT "Fronte's" at a surplus store, that's a whole different story.

But I must say it would be nice to have something that would leave our reputation as Cadets instead of a bunch of crazy kids in a park...


----------



## ryanmann356

i agree, having a field uniform that is solely that of cadets is a great idea.  Anyway having civilians thinking that the cadets in the cadetpat are little Marines, I highly doubt that Joe Sixpack would be able to tell the difference between cadpat and marpat.  Civies dont know anything about that stuff (by civies I mean you average person who knows nothing about the military)  In anycase some people think the ODs look american too.  You can thank movies like Full Metal Jacket and We Were Soldiers (great movies by the way) that display the americans in ODs.  I've had civies ask me when I was in my ODs if I was in the american army. :  
Anyway I think having a specific uniform for cadets is great.  Feel free do disagree but like I said people like it and people dont.  Thats why you have a CHOICE to get them or not.


----------



## futuresoldier

When I brought my CADPAT Fmp cover to school (don't ask why), some guy said to me "Is that supposed to be camo? That stuff would never work!" I said (not in these words..) "Look civvie, go in the forest in full CADPAT and you would turn into a tree!"  

Lesson: Civvies don't know so don't bother...


----------



## Conquistador

If this new CADETPAT jazz wasn't so damn expensive, it might be a good idea. When I was in cadets, we did maybe only 1 excercise per year which called for some type of concealment, those were the 48 hour capture the flag games we called patrolling. Is that worth spending over 100$ on the uniform alone? Not only that, the kids that would be most interested in it would be around 12 - 13, and they'd probably outgrow the things in a year or so. My verdict: if the cadets wanna have their own ninjasniper field dress, go for it, but I don't see it as a worthwhile investment.


----------



## Scott

Conquistador said:
			
		

> If this new CADETPAT jazz wasn't so damn expensive, it might be a good idea. When I was in cadets, we did maybe only 1 excercise per year which called for some type of concealment, those were the 48 hour capture the flag games we called patrolling. Is that worth spending over 100$ on the uniform alone? Not only that, the kids that would be most interested in it would be around 12 - 13, and they'd probably outgrow the things in a year or so. My verdict: if the cadets wanna have their own ninjasniper field dress, go for it, but I don't see it as a worthwhile investment.



This has been beaten to death here. Who gives a load of pony if they _need_ it, the CCM obviously doesn't because they've made the CADETPAT available. I guess you could look at it as it's better they spend 100 bucks on clothing than beer...?

I personally don't give a damn, they want it, they have the money, give it to them, I say.


----------



## PViddy

> this new CADETPAT jazz wasn't so damn expensive, it might be a good idea. When I was in cadets, we did maybe only 1 excercise per year



Sucks to be your unit (or former)



> Is that worth spending over 100$ on the uniform alone? Not only that, the kids that would be most interested in it would be around 12 - 13, and they'd probably outgrow the things in a year or so. My verdict: if the cadets wanna have their own ninjasniper field dress, go for it, but I don't see it as a worthwhile investment.



Again, it is better than paying almost the same amount for crap quality surplus.  The Cadets will actually look good and be warmer cause they are not wearing OD combat lingerie.
If this catches on to the CCM as a whole, i see it turning into an opportunity where units will fund raise for their field gear, or obtain money from sponsors to perhaps offset the cost etc.

cheers

PV


----------



## LordOsborne

I'm a bit torn on the issue of these CADETPAT uniforms.. in my opinion, it would make sense to provide cadets with something a little more canadian... most OD combats are getting threadbare by this point and time, but i think it sends a confusing message to the public at large when canadian cadets are wearing USMC MARPAT style BDUs.


----------



## ryanmann356

LordOsborne said:
			
		

> I'm a bit torn on the issue of these CADETPAT uniforms.. in my opinion, it would make sense to provide cadets with something a little more canadian... most OD combats are getting threadbare by this point and time, but i think it sends a confusing message to the public at large when canadian cadets are wearing USMC MARPAT style BDUs.



But as we said Joe Sixpack wont know anything about Marpat, Cadetpat, Cadpat etc.  Do a survey.  Ask your friends if they know what Marpat is.  They wont know, the only people who know what is going on with the cadetpat and stuff like that, is cadets, and maybe some reg/reservists and the CIC and they know whats going on.

Go Army


----------



## Thompson_JM

Scott said:
			
		

> ...I guess you could look at it as it's better they spend 100 bucks on clothing than beer...?



I guess that depends on who you ask eh?  ;D

My feeling on this has already been stated.. the readers digest version is simple.

the cadets now have the opportunity to have a standard uniform look at their Corps, with a piece of kit which is new, and of good quality. it also has the look cool factor every cadet wants.. (dont lie guys... even army guys like a little LCF here and there...)

but, it also has the selling point for us CF types, (Reg and PRes) that IT DOESNT LOOK LIKE KIDS IN UNIFORM! 

Ive seen kids in the frontenac stuff... cadet in frotenac with headdress..looks alot more like a soldier to joe civy then cadet in cadetpat with headdress... AND CADET SLIP-ONS.

i wont get into that though since im preaching to the choir for the most part here. you guys are all pretty good about not wanting to look like wanna-be soldiers and being proud of your role in cadets without feeling a need to try and be something youre not. (i'll never walk around with Airborne or JTF-2  T-shirts on...) 

anyhow in a nutshell 

Me think cadetpat = good

cheers


----------



## Excolis

Thats fine, Joe civi over here in Canada might not know what MARPAT is.  Lets say you bring your corps to the states for training? then what? everyone and their brother over there knows what MARPAT is, and 16 year old kids these days are 6' plus, and will look like soldiers. i still say something more Canadian would be better.  

I dont understand why they didn't just give the old OD uniforms to the cadets.  That would have been perfect for what they need..


----------



## Thompson_JM

armoured soon said:
			
		

> Thats fine, Joe civi over here in Canada might not know what MARPAT is.  Lets say you bring your corps to the states for training? then what? everyone and their brother over there knows what MARPAT is, and 16 year old kids these days are 6' plus, and will look like soldiers. i still say something more Canadian would be better.
> 
> I dont understand why they didn't just give the old OD uniforms to the cadets.  That would have been perfect for what they need..



what if, what if what if...

what if ninjas attack them while theyre on FTX?

ive heard enough examples of us going down there and some US citizens and even military didnt know what to make of us. and we're in our own distinctive uniform...

I think OD would have been just find as well. but they decided not to go with that. and chose to take it in a different direction, (probabbly because all the cadets like disruptive pattern.) so they took some marpat, threw a leaf on it, and now its the new thing.

the reality is that people sometimes confuse us for americans.. civies dont know, dont care... 

besides... how often does the average Cadet Corps go down and train in the states? outside of a summer exchange where they are issued OD's and all that jazz....

(insert emoticon of person beating horse which is no longer living...)

for now as I see it, this stuff is only going to be used within the cadets home unit. once they all go off to camp for the summer (if the rest of em are like connaught) then they will be issued OD Green uniforms to wear while they are there. 
and besides... think about it man. how often will these cadets be just wandering around aimlessly in an amercian base, or on city streets? anytime they left our camp they had to be in their Cadet Dress uniform, or civies. so im not too concerned.


----------



## Scott

My God, mass produce uniforms for the Cadets based on the slim possibility that they may go to the States for some training. Never mind the fact that, even if you have some six footers in said Corps, there are going to be pint sized "Marines" running all over. I know people like to think that the Yanks are less educated than us but they aren't stupid.

armoured soon, your argument is weak at best. You say you want them to look Canadian but not have CADPAT - what is your brilliant solution? Also, you failed to address recceguy's question, please answer it, I am curious.

armoured soon quote:


> as for having them look like the "real" thing and wear the CAPAT version, i am not all for that either.



recceguy's question in reply:


> So I guess, if your CIC, you'd be turning in your CADPATS? I know CIC are Reservists, but shouldn't they dress like their charges?



Seems valid to me.


----------



## Excolis

I PM'd recceguy.  CIC are still in the reserves, and fall under QR&O's.  CIC are Commissioned Officers of the CF.  Why would they wear anything different?


----------



## Scott

To look like the people they supervise. That was a part of the question...

However, you answered it, somewhat, I'll let it go.


----------



## MikeL

In the off chance a Cadet goes on a FTX to a US base, there is NO way a US Soldier, Marine, Airman or Sailer will think a Cadet wearing CADETPAT is a US Marine...

CADETPAT is designed after the current CADPAT Combats(only CADETPAT is printed in MARPAT), not US BDUs, MARPAT cammies, etc. 

What are the chances a Canadian or US civvie will even see a Cadet in CADETPAT? When Cadets are out collecting money they wear their dress uniform, 98% of the time(atleast from what I've seen) they wear there Dress Uniforms to their parade night.


----------



## Scott

We try to get the point accross, Mike, but it always falls on deaf ears with some. Never mind...


----------



## ouyin2000

The only time a cadet in combats is going to be in the public eye would be to and/or from a weekend exercise.

For my unit's FTXs, we sometimes meet at the armoury and then have parents carpool us (or get a DND vehicle) to the location. I have quite a few cadets who rely on the BC transit system to get them to or from their houses.


----------



## futuresoldier

Piper said:
			
		

> armoured soon, your fighting a losing argument here. And looking silly doing it.



Agreed


----------



## FuBaR

I'm on the side that cadets should have a DND issued "combat" get-up to wear on FTX's.  But I'm realistic, I'm not whining about wanting Cadpat, would I wear it if it was given to me, you better believe it.  Hell, its a reason in its self to join the Army.  (Not the only reason)

So heres my vote, Cadetpat - good
Are the general public still going to mistaken us for Res/Regs, you better believe they will.  Is there any army related uniform that would be able to stop that, definently not.  Unless we get C-A-D-E-T painted in big bright letters across our backs.

To all current members of the CF, I apologize for those within the cadet organization who feel they should be on the same playing field as you.


----------



## MikeL

FuBaR said:
			
		

> Hell, its a reason in its self to join the Army.



 :


If anyone sees a cadet in CADETPAT an asks you if you are a soldier, or whatever(I can't believe they would think this, especially for 14-16 year old cadets) simply say you are not a member of the CF an you are a Cadet. Too easy.


----------



## FuBaR

Then that would go for any uniform.  But id bet that people would just assume, and not come up to ask you if youre in the CF.  That would only happen if cadets were doing something really good, or really bad.


----------



## Scott

My God, we are going to argue this from every conceivable angle, aren't we? This thread is wearing my patience thin.


----------



## FuBaR

Im not trying to force an arguement into whether or not cadets should have Cadpat.  All that I'm stating is cadets should have a field uniform, and no matter what it looks like, people are going to mistake cadets for CF members.


----------



## Big Foot

I think this thread seems to have run its course. Its pretty sad when we're in a situation where kids get mistaken for professional soldiers.


----------



## Scott

I am going to lock this one and open a new one for discussion about CADETPAT and discussion about CADETPAT *ONLY*.

I'll echo Bigfoot's sentiments. Maybe once in a blue moon a kid will get mistaken for a soldier, uninformed people may make that mistake, especially if the kid looks a bit older than his age. But it is not going to happen near enough to warrant the useless debate of it in here. 


This horse is dead. Look for the new thread about CADETPAT *ONLY*.


----------



## Scott

OK, the last one went off the rails so here's a new version so you can yap about CADETPAT.

The discussion will be limited to CADETPAT only. I don't want to see any more talk about Cadets being mistaken for Marines or any of that crap. Discuss your uniforms, revisions, etc. Leave the rest out of it.

Have fun.


----------



## cadettrooper

OK then..... 
   what is your oppinion on Air cadets wearing the new cadetpat uniforms? (seeing as they're designed for army cadets)


----------



## Big Foot

cadettrooper, grow up here. Cadets are cadets, plain and simple. CADETPAT is for cadets. Quit trying to destroy this thread before it gets started.


----------



## Lerch

I'm still curious how close the CADetPAT uniform is to the CADPAT uniform. Are the upper pockets reinforced with cordura? Do the trousers have velcro waist pockets? etc..


----------



## ryanmann356

all the pockets are fastened with velcro.  As far as the cordura, I have no idea


----------



## q_1966

- The pockets are also designed to fit FMP Books as appose to the Chest Mag pockets in the Cadpat / OD's

- Strings and buttons dont even go with the uniform

Edit: 
- No strings to blouse the Pants
- Cadetpat Boots look funny
- Cadetpat Hat doesnt have a removable protective strip of cloth for the back of neck to prevent you from getting a sunburn


----------



## Caleix

I was in Cadets not to long ago, got up to FSgt. in Air and had lots of fun. Theres two ways I look at this idea of CadetPat....One, I think its really cool for the cadets to have these "spiffy" uniforms, it would certainly boost moral and esprit de corps ten fold. But I also see it as a huge Money problem for the DND (they've got their work cut out for them just providing kit for Reg and PRes. members). Don't forget that we are citizens of Canada.....(some civilians)....and Canada isn't a third world country that has child soldiers......I could see Cadets getting these new uniforms and then the day after on the news "Canada's little soldiers". I again think its an OK idea as long as the uniform doesn't look like the CF Cadpat because thats where the problem would come into hand. Correct me if I'm wrong in anything I've said....

Caleix


----------



## Bean

Lets be clear here, Cadetpat is a League initiative not a cadets canada initiative.  It is optional purchase designed for the needs of the cadet program, and using non-public funds.  So the CF has spent not one red cent producing this pattern.  Furthermore at this time I believe it is a BC League intiative, and has not yet been sanctioned around the country (as I understand it).  It is a great option for cadets looking for a distinctive uniform, I've seen only one cadet in it, and I think it looks pretty good.  

As for "canada's little soldiers", I've heard worse things in the last couple months.  After the Macleans article this summer I don't think the argument could be made beyond the wearing of any uniform, as they all represent some form of military support.  I'd much prefer to have all my cadets in one common uniform than the smattering of OG, Cadpat, and civilian clothing, but that is not likely to happen.  Outside the Summer Training Centers, all combat or field type clothing is personal purchase and considered civilian attire.  Provisions have been made to allow those cadets buying CF pattern OG to wear accoutrements from the cadet system, and everything else is just civilian clothing.  Cadetpat will be no different.  I'd encourage the standardization, but unless the league is going to do a bulk buy and donate it to the various corps, I think it has an up-hill battle to fight to gain acceptance.


----------



## Caleix

its not that i see a problem with cadets wearing military issued clothing, as long as its not clothing that is being currently issued out to reg or reserve members, thats where i get problems with it, because no one should be wearing Cadpat when their out for a weekend with the guys or on a cadet......."exercise" because cadets didn't sign papers swearing allegiance to the crown and his/her heirs.....

Caleix

P.s- I'd love to know whats worse that you've heard then Canadians having child soldiers....[( 9 YEAROLDS WITH AN AK-47 AROUND THEIR SHOULDER!!!!) do we really want people to see the CF like that]


----------



## redleafjumper

I think the initiative for a cadet field uniform based on the CF uniform is an excellent idea.  It has always been a problem getting cadets good field clothing.  As to Caleix's comments about child soldiers, well cadets are not child soldiers, they are not bound to serve, but certainly part of the aim of the cadet movement, that of encouraging an interest in the land, air and sea elements of the Canadian Forces is well served by involving cadets in real military training.  The cadet programme used to do a lot more of that, particularly in service firearm shooting, and I for one would like to see a return to those activities.  Consider the way it used to be done not all that long ago:

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=1980_West_Germany_-_Sheldon_Clare_Gallery


----------



## Caleix

I never wanted it to seem like cadets were child soldiers, what i was suggesting was that with a uniform similar to the CF Cadpat now would be a nudge in the direction of cadets looking like child soldiers....also a way to solve this problem "could" be to only let cadets over the age of 16 wear the uniform (if it looks like CadPat)


Caleix


-im really starting to get confused, maybe someone could post a picture of the uniform (if it exsists)


----------



## Scott

Caleix said:
			
		

> I never wanted it to seem like cadets were child soldiers, what i was suggesting was that with a uniform similar to the CF Cadpat now would be a nudge in the direction of cadets looking like child soldiers....also a way to solve this problem "could" be to only let cadets over the age of 16 wear the uniform (if it looks like CadPat)
> 
> 
> Caleix
> 
> 
> -im really starting to get confused, maybe someone could post a picture of the uniform (if it exsists)











> The discussion will be limited to CADETPAT only. I don't want to see any more talk about Cadets being mistaken for Marines or any of that crap. Discuss your uniforms, revisions, etc. Leave the rest out of it.



Man, that didn't take long! Here it is again, we have discussed - for 18 odd pages - CADETPAT and the issues of Cadets looking like real soldiers. I have had enough as it just continues in circles. If you wish to talk about CADETPAT, revisions to CADETPAT, problems with CADETPAT then go the heck ahead. If you want to talk anymore about the possibility of being mistaken for a serving soldier, whether Canadian, American or Bangladeshi, you will take a trip into the warning system, I have had it.


----------



## herseyjh

I hate to say it but if you want to talk about cadets and uniforms then this is going to come up over and over again as it is true.  We could talk about what the uniform is made of, color, pockets, or whatever but as soon as you stick it on some kid and they go walking down the street people are going to think army.  That is it.  A uniform is a symbol no matter who is wearing it.  

I hope you see my point and I am not trying to be an ass here but as long as there is a forum on Cadepat, this one, or the old one we will be talking about this.


----------



## ryanmann356

I dont get what the big deal is.  No one complained about lookin like things they arent when they had the old ODs so why is everyone getting their panties in a twist over this stuff?  Cadets and Reg/reserve members wore the same OD junk for years.


----------



## herseyjh

The uniform old or new will provoke the same discussion.  The new uniform just sparked up the argument.  The argument is should cadets (children) look like soldiers, or would some other uniform surfice?


----------



## c.jacob

Cadets didn't always wear the same OD combats at camp.  I'm sure many people here remember the Kiddy Combats which were an OD shirt with no strings and straight pockets rather than slanted.  It kind of looked like the dress shirts except with long sleeves that you rolled up and it was OD green.  However the normal combats were bought and worn at LHQ.


----------



## ouyin2000

Jacob said:
			
		

> Cadets didn't always wear the same OD combats at camp.  I'm sure many people here remember the Kiddy Combats which were an OD shirt with no strings and straight pockets rather than slanted.  It kind of looked like the dress shirts except with long sleeves that you rolled up and it was OD green.  However the normal combats were bought and worn at LHQ.


I do remember them, they were dubbed "wombats" at Vernon.


----------



## Scott

herseyjh said:
			
		

> I hate to say it



I'm glad you do, next time don't, that way we won't take this any further.



			
				herseyjh said:
			
		

> but if you want to talk about cadets and uniforms then this is going to come up over and over again as it is true.  We could talk about what the uniform is made of, color, pockets, or whatever but as soon as you stick it on some kid and they go walking down the street people are going to think army.  That is it.  A uniform is a symbol no matter who is wearing it.



Then why don't I delete the posts about that subject in this thread and put a brand new disclaimer at the beginning with that information in it? Why do we have to keep discussing the same things over and over and over. I get a migraine when I read these threads.







			
				ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> I dont get what the big deal is.  No one complained about lookin like things they arent when they had the old ODs so why is everyone getting their panties in a twist over this stuff?  Cadets and Reg/reserve members wore the same OD junk for years.



I have zero clue, none. I wish it were the same. Bet it has something to do with LCF, though.

I asked simply that we not beat the old dead horse about kids looking like soldiers. I'll ask once more politely before I lock this and make sure it never has it's own thread again. The previous thread was 18 pages of run on and round about information, we don't need to discuss the same things again.

Last chance.


----------



## Dane

Papke, the buttons are now all black and look vastly superior to the previous "granny buttons"

Lerch, the pockets are not reinforced.


----------



## q_1966

They still look ugly, and stick out like a sore thumb


----------



## ryanmann356

It would be better if they could make cadetpat epaulettes for the uniform.  The dress epaulettes don't look appropriate on the field dress uniform and cadets aren't allowed to wear the cadpat slip ons (trust me on that one) even though they let the CSMs wear the cadpat slip ons in Vernon  :


----------



## ouyin2000

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> It would be better if they could make cadetpat epaulettes for the uniform...


They had some for the Vernon CSMs, but apparently they looked like something you would get out of the rear end of a horse. Maybe the BC Army Cadet League plans on making them in the future? Or if you really wanted, maybe you could order some scrap cloth and make them yourself.


----------



## c.jacob

I was in Wal-Mart yesterday and I saw the Digital pattern material passing by the sewing section.  I found that kind of interesteng


----------



## Sloaner

That particular pattern material is available in ALOT of places.  Its distinc from Marpat in that it doesn't have the USMC Eagle Globe and Anchor emblem in it so any joe on the street can buy it or make what they want with it.  I htink the uniform looks good, and will be functional for what most cadets need.  However it will require a great sales pitch around this area before it gets any traction.


----------



## Dane

Papke said:
			
		

> They still look ugly, and stick out like a sore thumb



Have you seen the revised version?


----------



## LordOsborne

I've rethought my position on the issue, and I believe a CADETPAT uniform would be a step in the right direction. I think any qualms people might have about mistaken identities can be easily resolved with some simple measures:

Cadets have distinctive slip-ons. Air cadets in particular are easily distinguished in the field by their blue slipons and white lettering, not to mention the "CADET" tag at the base of every slipon. I don't think it'd be very difficult to ensure that all uniformed cadets wear their cadet uniform slipons. 

Also, I recall that the new Cadet paka has a round velcro patch for the particular cadet branch emblem. Why not make a simliar modification to the CADETPAT uniform, either in the same spot on the chest, or perhaps on the left shoulder where the canadian flag is found on the CF uniforms? All the cadet would need to do would be to transfer the patch from his parka to his CADETPAT uniform.  From experience, i know that cadets wearing CF surplus uniforms need to remove the cdn flag from said shoulder in order to conform to the CATOs (although i hace long since forgotten the reference). By putting the round patch on said shoulder, you'd make identification a snap.


----------



## yoman

LordOsborne said:
			
		

> i know that cadets wearing CF surplus uniforms need to remove the cdn flag from said shoulder in order to conform to the CATOs (although i hace long since forgotten the reference).



I would be very interested in seeing this CATO. Either you are incorrect or my unit just doesn't like to follow the rules a lot of the time...


----------



## ouyin2000

I havn't seen that in any CATO i've read.

In fact, at Vernon, some cadets get issued OD combats with the flags on them.


----------



## Lerch

Also, the CADetPAT uniform has a velcro patch specifically for the maple leaf. If we're supposed to remove it...why the velcro?


----------



## LordOsborne

http://www.cadets.ca/_docs/cato-oaic/5504_b.pdf

That's a link to the Air Cadet CATO on uniforms, from the Cadet website. on page 8, section 18 (at the top of the page) it states:



> 18. Air Cadets shall not wear the following
> uniforms/badges:
> a. any form of CF uniform or cadet
> uniform, past or present, not described
> in this CATO;
> b. any form of CF mess dress, past or
> present; and
> c. rank or qualification badges of the CF
> or any other badges not described in
> this CATO.



I looked through the rest of the CATO, and I did not see the combat canadian flag mentioned anywhere, therefore we can assume that it is not allowed. That's just my take on the CATO... it's what I was told when i was in cadets, and it's what i did.


----------



## ouyin2000

Everyone likes to stick to the "If it's not in the CATOs it doesn't happen" principle.

The CATOs don't specify that any cadet needs to brush their teeth or change their underwear (it does however specify that cadets shall wear undergarments of some type). So are we to assume that in order to be a cadet, one must not bathe or clean themselves?

I know, I know, and extreme example, but it does get my point across.


----------



## LordOsborne

Oh, i agree with you there, Ouyin. The CATOs are interpretable to a wide degree, and that's the way it's always been and is probably always going to be.    There were some cadets that couldn't be convinced to take off their flags, and c'est la vie.


----------



## yoman

LordOsborne said:
			
		

> Oh, i agree with you there, Ouyin. The CATOs are interpretable to a wide degree, and that's the way it's always been and is probably always going to be.    There were some cadets that couldn't be convinced to take off their flags, and c'est la vie.



I would be one of those cadets that couldn't be convinced to remove it.


----------



## Scott

How about ordered? Are CATO's not orders?


----------



## Scott

> It's easy to ignore orders when your not under any obligation to do so.



Good point. But look at it from a Cadet's perspective, they are always wanting us to take them seriously. So, wether I was obligated or not I would do what I was told.


----------



## Burrows

If you can find anywhere in the CF Dress Regs, not the cadet ones where it mentions a flag, that would be good.  Otherwise I'm sure it could be considered part of the uniform.


----------



## condor888000

Good god I hate this argument. And yet I post everytime I see it. 

Anyway, as was mentioned, the CATO's make no specific mention of it, and as they are exclusive, then it would seem that it is not permitted to be worn. 

Now, as Burrows pointed out, it could be interpreted that if the CF regs make specific mention of the flag, then it is not authorized for cadets to wear. If they don't, as we know that the CF is permitted to wear the flag, it could be assumed that cadets may do the same. 

All that is one possibility. The other, which strikes me as FAR more likely, is simply that D-Cadets did not think that this flag issue would come up when the CATO's were written. Because of such, unless you get something straight from D-Cadets telling you to wear them or not to, I'd go with that age old wonder, CO's discretion.

Yes, I know that the CATO's are orders, however, as they do not SPECIFICALLY state in clear language that it is not permitted, and the fact that I've been issued combats with flags on them as well as several flight suits with the flags, leads me to believe that in this case, leave it up to the CO UNLESS D-Cadets sends an amendment stating otherwise or the new CATO's come out.

And now I wait to see how many people decide to tear me apart because I suggested that the CATO's may not be all knowing..... 8)


----------



## yoman

condor888000 said:
			
		

> unless you get something straight from D-Cadets telling you to wear them or not to, I'd go with that age old wonder, CO's discretion.
> 
> Yes, I know that the CATO's are orders, however, as they do not SPECIFICALLY state in clear language that it is not permitted
> 
> And now I wait to see how many people decide to tear me apart because I suggested that the CATO's may not be all knowing..... 8)



CO's discretion is the way to go. Since my CO doesn't mind us wearing it, I'm good to go. Next time I get the chance I will ask my insightfull NDHQ insider...



			
				Scott said:
			
		

> Good point. But look at it from a Cadet's perspective, they are always wanting us to take them seriously. So, wether I was obligated or not I would do what I was told.



I would do what I was told if it wasn't for the fact I bought it with my own money.


----------



## LordOsborne

Good point on that last one, Yoman. Those cadets that didn't remove the flag at the request of officers / NCOs wondered why they should if they bought it with their own money. I also agree that COs discretion is the way to go.

However, i think we've digressed a bit (my own fault, i admit) from my original point, which was that making CADETPAT uniforms easily distinguishable as "cadets" is easy as using only uniform slipons, and potentially the parka roundel..


----------



## Scott

> I would do what I was told if it wasn't for the fact I bought it with my own money.



Full stop. I had a set of non-issue gloves that I wore to the range once. I was promptly told, not too nicely, by one of the range staff to make the gloves disappear. Wether he was right or wrong I did it, no questions asked.

If your CO tells you to wear it then I guess you can do so until you find out otherwise. However, I must caution that your CO may be setting himself up for a jacking. Also, if you know that what your CO is using as "his discretion" goes against orders then you are supposed to inform him of such or you are neglecting your duties. That's how she works.


----------



## yoman

Piper said:
			
		

> Wrong!
> 
> If you want cadets to be 'more military' and taken more seriously, then start acting like it. Which means, do as you are told. If you are told to remove your flag, whether or not you bought it is irrelevant...it was an order to be followed.
> 
> But then again, when it's just fun and games I guess the regs and rules set for cadets don't matter that much anyways. Policy is, no CF insignia on a cadet's combats that may confuse them with serving members, to some that means the flag. Personally, I don't care. In fact, they should wear it, being Canadian and all.
> 
> However, rules are rules. When I was in cadets, I was told to remove the flags from my combats (which I bought with my own money). I did so, since it was an order. If someone can't figure out that in the military (or a suedo-military group like cadets) orders are to be followed, then they should stay away (at least away from the real thing).



My question is how can a Canadian flag be a CF insignia? My unit allows cadets to wear the fake CADPAT witch I do not agree with. That to me is more of a CF symbol (and all this is done at Connaught Range).



			
				Scott said:
			
		

> Full stop. I had a set of non-issue gloves that I wore to the range once. I was promptly told, not too nicely, by one of the range staff to make the gloves disappear. Wether he was right or wrong I did it, no questions asked.
> 
> If your CO tells you to wear it then I guess you can do so until you find out otherwise. However, I must caution that your CO may be setting himself up for a jacking. Also, if you know that what your CO is using as "his discretion" goes against orders then you are supposed to inform him of such or you are neglecting your duties. That's how she works.



I will tell you right now my CO is breaking some rules. And she does know she is. And I was not saying my CO goes by her own discretion type thing, just that if the rules aren't clear then you should do what the CO says to do. Also, this is not a thread about cadets obeying orders or not. 



			
				LordOsborne said:
			
		

> Good point on that last one, Yoman. Those cadets that didn't remove the flag at the request of officers / NCOs wondered why they should if they bought it with their own money. I also agree that COs discretion is the way to go.
> 
> However, i think we've digressed a bit (my own fault, i admit) from my original point, which was that making CADETPAT uniforms easily distinguishable as "cadets" is easy as using only uniform slipons, and potentially the parka roundel..



Imagine, all these problems can be resolved with a what you are suggesting (plus making it more accessable).


----------



## ouyin2000

Piper said:
			
		

> ...whether or not you bought it is irrelevant...it was an order to be followed...


Absolutely correct.

I have never had a CO order me to remove the canadian flag from my OD combats that I bought, so I left it on. Had I received that order, I would have followed it immediately. (which is something that is missing from today's army cadets)


----------



## ryanmann356

I have never seen anyone get ordered to remove the canadian flag from the OD uniform anywhere.  Actually, the new cadetpat has a full colored candian flag sewn on, they got rid of the velcro.  I have seen pictures of canadian soldiers during UN missions overseas wearing the full colored canadian flag on their ODs.  I cant imagine cadets getting ordered to remove the flag, i mean its a source of pride.


----------



## Scott

yoman said:
			
		

> My question is how can a Canadian flag be a CF insignia? My unit allows cadets to wear the fake CADPAT witch I do not agree with. That to me is more of a CF symbol (and all this is done at Connaught Range).
> 
> I will tell you right now my CO is breaking some rules. And she does know she is. And I was not saying my CO goes by her own discretion type thing, just that if the rules aren't clear then you should do what the CO says to do. Also, this is not a thread about cadets obeying orders or not.



I believe it's the colour scheme, the combat green that would make this particular flag a CF symbol.

If you think that just because someone else ignores the rules that you can as well then you will not make it very far in this world. Ignorance is not a defence and people won't trust you as innocent and knowing nothing - you ARE responsible, act like it.

And thanks for the reminder of what the thread was about, can you help me walk and chew gum too?


----------



## lawandorder

Cadet Uniforms should be completely different and distinct from Reserve and Regular Force members.  
That means it should something different then the OD and CADPAT.  A lot of active members still have all the OD outerwear gear.

I have worked with Cadets before and didn't like the fact that some were wearing CADPAT.  They didn't have the same level of professionalism.  They were goofing around and the such.  Obviously thats not the case for ALL Cadets.

They should not be allowed to wear CADPAT, the OD will be allright once the entire CF is finished being blanketed with CADPAT.

As for the Flag, sure let them wear the flag.  They're Canadian.  I think there just needs to be something more that distinguishes them as Cadets.


----------



## c.jacob

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> I have never seen anyone get ordered to remove the canadian flag from the OD uniform anywhere.  Actually, the new cadetpat has a full colored candian flag sewn on, they got rid of the velcro.  I have seen pictures of canadian soldiers during UN missions overseas wearing the full colored canadian flag on their ODs.  I cant imagine cadets getting ordered to remove the flag, i mean its a source of pride.



 I was told to take it off when I was a cadet and just got new combats.  I liked the flag and didn't really want to take it off.  But orders are orders and being the RSM, I had to set the example so i did as I was told without a fuss.


----------



## cadettrooper

Piper said:
			
		

> I think these kind of threads should be forever banned from this site.
> 
> Always we will have cadets trying to look as 'military' as possible, those who don't care and those who know the rules. And we will always have military types saying that cadets should have distinct uniforms to separate them from us. ........
> 
> .......But others have different opinions, and the status quo is somewhere in between since Cadets Canada can't seem to make a definitive policy regarding a cadet wide field uniform standard for all cadets; air, land and sea.



You make a very good point Piper, I'm stating to get sick of these meaningless arguments going on. lets see if we can get back to the original topic OK?

                                       "can't we all just be friends" ;D :warstory:


----------



## yoman

Scott said:
			
		

> I believe it's the colour scheme, the combat green that would make this particular flag a CF symbol.
> 
> If you think that just because someone else ignores the rules that you can as well then you will not make it very far in this world. Ignorance is not a defence and people won't trust you as innocent and knowing nothing - you ARE responsible, act like it.
> 
> And thanks for the reminder of what the thread was about, can you help me walk and chew gum too?



If the flag was the standart red and white would it still be a CF symbol or something that says that you are Canadian? What difference does it make that the flag is green, purple, pink or green?

Ok, this is getting to far. I am responsible for my actions. 

This discussion seemed to have derailed so I suggested we go back on track. Do you have a problem with that sir? If you do please feel free to contact me via pm so we can discuss this further.


----------



## Scott

Oh man....I made my point. I can see how the combat Canadian flag worn on Reg and Res uniforms could be seen as taboo for Cadets because it is a part of the CF uniform. Cadets do not wear the CF uniform they wear a Cadet uniform. Do you get me now?

If you're responsible for your actions the what is this:


> I would be one of those cadets that couldn't be convinced to remove it.



and this:


> I would do what I was told if it wasn't for the fact I bought it with my own money.



You may take responsibility but you are not acting responsible - there are two sides.

I have zero issue with this getting back on track. What bothers me is that you expect to be able to post something and not have someone debate it and it almost seems as though you are using the "back on track" statement to hide out from the debate. I have not much patience for threads here these days as the threads in the cadet forums always seem to end the same way - me baning my head against the wall and feeling drunk. I re-opened this because I thought that there were good discussion points and we needed to get away from the conversations of Cadets looking like soldiers, it had been beaten to death. And what happens? We find something else to beat to death.

You made points, I countered them - that is called debate.


----------



## yoman

Scott said:
			
		

> Oh man....I made my point. I can see how the combat Canadian flag worn on Reg and Res uniforms could be seen as taboo for Cadets because it is a part of the CF uniform. Cadets do not wear the CF uniform they wear a Cadet uniform. Do you get me now?
> 
> If you're responsible for your actions the what is this:
> and this:
> You may take responsibility but you are not acting responsible - there are two sides.
> 
> I have zero issue with this getting back on track. What bothers me is that you expect to be able to post something and not have someone debate it and it almost seems as though you are using the "back on track" statement to hide out from the debate. I have not much patience for threads here these days as the threads in the cadet forums always seem to end the same way - me baning my head against the wall and feeling drunk. I re-opened this because I thought that there were good discussion points and we needed to get away from the conversations of Cadets looking like soldiers, it had been beaten to death. And what happens? We find something else to beat to death.
> 
> You made points, I countered them - that is called debate.



I see what you mean about the Canadian flag on the uniform thing. I still disagree that some people think it should be removed, we being Canadian and all.

Now me being irresponsible because I probably wouldn't remove the flag is different. I will follow orders, just not any that would damage my personal belongings, endanger someones well being or humiliate someone. The flag falls into the personal belongings category.

I have no problem with a debate, infact I think it adds spice to the threads. I just didn't think our issue was what this thread was about.


----------



## Michael OLeary

yoman said:
			
		

> Now me being irresponsible because I probably wouldn't remove the flag is different. I will follow orders, just not any that would damage my personal belongings, endanger someones well being or humiliate someone. The flag falls into the personal belongings category.



So, if the order (issued or understood) is to not wear the flag on your uniform, and you have a protective instinct towards the thread holding it to your shirt, does that mean you won't wear the uniform article at all, so that you are in compliance with the order?


----------



## yoman

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> So, if the order (issued or understood) is to not wear the flag on your uniform, and you have a protective instinct towards the thread holding it to your shirt, does that mean you won't wear the uniform article at all, so that you are in compliance with the order?



If the situation did occur, I would probably not wear the uniform article in question.


----------



## Scott

I am going to cut to the chase because enough bandwidth has been wasted on this debate, IMO.

yoman, do you have a problem following rules? Do you think some rules should apply to others and not to you? Do you hope to have a career in the CF or any other para military type organization? (Police, Medical, Fire)

Answer the above honestly, please. 

By what you are saying here I have come to understand this:
-You added a personal item to a piece of issued kit.
-If asked to remove said item from said piece of kit _that does not belong to you_, you would just not wear the piece of kit.

The former is something that I would have zero knowledge of rules and regs on, I can add personal things to my fire clothing provided it is not offensive and passes approval, if it doesn't I must remove it no matter if it cost me a million bucks and I signed over my first born for it.

The latter makes no sense to me. It would be like me saying that I added a sticker, which was not allowed under policy, to my fire helmet and when asked to remove it I wouldn't, I just didn't wear the helmet. How much sense does that make? Was it your uniform article in the first place?

I am rapidly tiring of this, every time we suggest something to you, something born of experience with these sorts of things you have some other argument to the contrary. I'll make it real simple for you - if you are ordered to do something in the CF and you do not do it you can go to jail. If you are in some other job you can be fired. It is called insubordination, think about it.


----------



## yoman

Scott said:
			
		

> I am going to cut to the chase because enough bandwidth has been wasted on this debate, IMO.
> 
> yoman, do you have a problem following rules? Do you think some rules should apply to others and not to you? Do you hope to have a career in the CF or any other para military type organization? (Police, Medical, Fire)
> 
> Answer the above honestly, please.
> 
> By what you are saying here I have come to understand this:
> -You added a personal item to a piece of issued kit.
> -If asked to remove said item from said piece of kit _that does not belong to you_, you would just not wear the piece of kit.
> 
> The former is something that I would have zero knowledge of rules and regs on, I can add personal things to my fire clothing provided it is not offensive and passes approval, if it doesn't I must remove it no matter if it cost me a million bucks and I signed over my first born for it.
> 
> The latter makes no sense to me. It would be like me saying that I added a sticker, which was not allowed under policy, to my fire helmet and when asked to remove it I wouldn't, I just didn't wear the helmet. How much sense does that make? Was it your uniform article in the first place?
> 
> I am rapidly tiring of this, every time we suggest something to you, something born of experience with these sorts of things you have some other argument to the contrary. I'll make it real simple for you - if you are ordered to do something in the CF and you do not do it you can go to jail. If you are in some other job you can be fired. It is called insubordination, think about it.



Do you not get that this is not issued gear we are talking about hear? Everything we wear on FTX's is our own property. I chose to wear OD combats.

I have no problem following rules. Rules should be applied to everyone and not just to some individuals. Yes I do hope to have a career in the CF.

No that doesn't make sense because the item is not your property. Yes it is my uniform article in the first place.

I know what happens when you don't follow rules. I come from a family of police officers, consequences will happen.

I am going to try and clarify certain things so that you can understand. 

- This is not issued kit 
- I would remove the article (that belongs to me) in question if somebody asks me to remove something from that article that belongs to me
- The only issued kit at the LHQ level is the parade uniform
- You are told to wear appropriate cloth for when we have FTX 
- if the article was issued, then I would do what was asked


----------



## Scott

Clear.


----------



## c.jacob

yoman said:
			
		

> Do you not get that this is not issued gear we are talking about hear? Everything we wear on FTX's is our own property. I chose to wear OD combats.
> 
> I have no problem following rules. Rules should be applied to everyone and not just to some individuals. Yes I do hope to have a career in the CF.
> 
> No that doesn't make sense because the item is not your property. Yes it is my uniform article in the first place.
> 
> I know what happens when you don't follow rules. I come from a family of police officers, consequences will happen.
> 
> I am going to try and clarify certain things so that you can understand.
> 
> - This is not issued kit
> - I would remove the article (that belongs to me) in question if somebody asks me to remove something from that article that belongs to me
> - The only issued kit at the LHQ level is the parade uniform
> - You are told to wear appropriate cloth for when we have FTX
> - if the article was issued, then I would do what was asked




Sorry for jumping in but if you can not wear them properly than you shouldn't be wearing them.  Yes it is personal kit purchased by you but it is still a uniform.  You can wear your beret with combats which you can not with civilian clothing.  Imagine a parade night where combats is the dress of the day and all the cadets wore whatever badges they felt like (flags, green rank badges, etc) just because they felt like it and they paid for their combats so therefore they could leave it on there.


----------



## Scott

So here would be the perfect example of why we want Cadets, in the Cadet forums, to police themselves. You guys know the rules, I am 10 years removed from them.

Once again, if you want to go quoting rules you had better be prepared to live by them.

Bet the next retort is that he doesn't wear the beret with his OD's  :


----------



## yoman

Scott said:
			
		

> Bet the next retort is that he doesn't wear the beret with his OD's  :



I don't, simply because I don't have one and not allowed to because of CO's orders.  



			
				Jacob said:
			
		

> Sorry for jumping in but if you can not wear them properly than you shouldn't be wearing them.  Yes it is personal kit purchased by you but it is still a uniform.  You can wear your beret with combats which you can not with civilian clothing.  Imagine a parade night where combats is the dress of the day and all the cadets wore whatever badges they felt like (flags, green rank badges, etc) just because they felt like it and they paid for their combats so therefore they could leave it on there.



Yes I understand what you mean and agree with it. Its just, I don't think that the Canadian flag should be removed. If there would of been rank insignias I would of removed it.

I didn't think you can have a parade night where combats was the dress. Being that you are not obligated to have them.


----------



## gun plumber

Just a quick question,
If a Canadian flag sewn on your uniform is such a problem,why not acquire(read,purchace,not steal! ) a bassard of similar material,sew the flag,your cadet\combat identifier and your cadet rank on it and wear it with your uniform.This way:
1.you could not be mistaken for a soldier,because this item is not worn with the issued uniform as a common item.
2.If told to remove the flag off your uniform,not a problem.a quick 2 seconds is all you need , you wouldn't have to take a knife to your own property and would draw less attention to yourself,
3.Bassards are cool!LOL  ;D

Sorry Scott if I re-opened Pandora's Box,this was not my intention.I just wanted to pass on an option nobody has yet looked at.


----------



## GGHG_Cadet

I do believe some corps do that. Others do not. It is because there is no standard what so ever about combats. Some regions outlaw them while others turn a blind eye, in out dress regs it says that combats should only be worn at summer camps but some corps do not abide by that. I think what happens is basically as long as the region doesn't recieve any complaints then COs are basically free to do what they want within their corps (to a certain extent). 

When my corps wears combats we have a specially made corps patch that says cadet on it on one side and on the other we have our round RCAC identifier patch.


----------



## PViddy

Ok,

 I have been reading this thread with much interest.  So the Canadian Flag thing comes up, just to note that this post is not to prove anyone wrong, just to get the right info out there.   

I am not hear to say your CO is wrong, because he or she would have the ultimate disgression on the matter.  i post only what i have read on our (CIC) network (the CIC DIN).  Perhaps, if you need more clarrifcation you could somhow politely sugest to your staff thtat they may be able to find further clarrification on this site.

This very same debate came up on Cadet.net as been clarrified (i would post a link, but it is a internal network).

So here it goes, it has been clarrified that *nothing prevents a cadet from wearing names tapes  or the Canadian flag attached to proper CF issued clothing*** (see below for clarrification of this statement).  It can be noted that at summer camps (depending on the course) when CF combat clothing is actually issued, comes with the flag sewn on.

*Name tapes - Since it could be considered that the anchor, eagle or swords on the cadpat name tapes could be used as a CF unit identifier, cadets should have their *name listed only*.*

Also CADPAT clothing, can be considered as official CF clothing under CATO 55-04 (air) and therfore if purchased lawfully would be authorized for wear with "cadet" slip ons, and proper head dress (the question than beng can CADPAT be purchased lawfully ? probably not) NOTE* that the CF CADPAT tilly is not a form of authorized head dress under CATO 55-04.

The above was clarrified by the AirTrgO RCSU(C) does this interpretation apply tto Army and Sea Cadets ? i really don't know, CATO's are CATO's but ultimately the other elemental training cells may wish to pursue a different avenue until we actually get some written orders printed and updated.

I say  again, i am just sharing my info and insight on the subject, don't be dumb and tell your staff that they are wrong, i am not your CO.  if you have further questions on this, feel free to send me a PM so that we don't have to strech this any further, i feel Scott's patience streching  

In closing i will post a direct quote from sombody that dictates this information, name withheld for confidentiality.

"The key issues here are that cadets are suitably attired for both prevailing weather conditions and the type of training being conducted, that cadets in any sort of military clothing are not mistaken for CF or other military personnel, that cadet insignia is only worn by cadets wearing full CF pattern clothing"


cheers

PV


----------



## yoman

PViddy said:
			
		

> Ok,
> 
> I have been reading this thread with much interest.  So the Canadian Flag thing comes up, just to note that this post is not to prove anyone wrong, just to get the right info out there.
> 
> I am not hear to say your CO is wrong, because he or she would have the ultimate disgression on the matter.  i post only what i have read on our (CIC) network (the CIC DIN).  Perhaps, if you need more clarrifcation you could somhow politely sugest to your staff thtat they may be able to find further clarrification on this site.
> 
> This very same debate came up on Cadet.net as been clarrified (i would post a link, but it is a internal network).
> 
> So here it goes, it has been clarrified that *nothing prevents a cadet from wearing names tapes  or the Canadian flag attached to proper CF issued clothing*** (see below for clarrification of this statement).  It can be noted that at summer camps (depending on the course) when CF combat clothing is actually issued, comes with the flag sewn on.
> 
> *Name tapes - Since it could be considered that the anchor, eagle or swords on the cadpat name tapes could be used as a CF unit identifier, cadets should have their *name listed only*.*
> 
> Also CADPAT clothing, can be considered as official CF clothing under CATO 55-04 (air) and therfore if purchased lawfully would be authorized for wear with "cadet" slip ons, and proper head dress (the question than beng can CADPAT be purchased lawfully ? probably not) NOTE* that the CF CADPAT tilly is not a form of authorized head dress under CATO 55-04.
> 
> The above was clarrified by the AirTrgO RCSU(C) does this interpretation apply tto Army and Sea Cadets ? i really don't know, CATO's are CATO's but ultimately the other elemental training cells may wish to pursue a different avenue until we actually get some written orders printed and updated.
> 
> I say  again, i am just sharing my info and insight on the subject, don't be dumb and tell your staff that they are wrong, i am not your CO.  if you have further questions on this, feel free to send me a PM so that we don't have to strech this any further, i feel Scott's patience streching
> 
> In closing i will post a direct quote from sombody that dictates this information, name withheld for confidentiality.
> 
> "The key issues here are that cadets are suitably attired for both prevailing weather conditions and the type of training being conducted, that cadets in any sort of military clothing are not mistaken for CF or other military personnel, that cadet insignia is only worn by cadets wearing full CF pattern clothing"
> 
> cheers
> 
> PV



Thank you very much on clarifying this for everybody. 

Just a quick question on what you said. Do cadets have to wear their rank slip ons when they are wearing the OD combats?


----------



## condor888000

As an air cadet, yes. It is in 55-04, so put them on. And wear either your wedge, a beret, a tilley, or the cadet toque.

Which of course few or no one does. Even though they should.


----------



## yoman

condor888000 said:
			
		

> As an air cadet, yes. It is in 55-04, so put them on. And wear either your wedge, a beret, a tilley, or the cadet toque.
> 
> Which of course few or no one does. Even though they should.



Thank you. And your right, no one does. I might bring it up when I can.


----------



## PViddy

> Just a quick question on what you said. Do cadets have to wear their rank slip ons when they are wearing the OD combats?



absoluetly.

And yes, of course my post was more so from the Air perspective, thanks for the clarification.  I breifly went through the Sea and Army CATO's tonight, but could not decipher any particulars in regards to the topic at hand, maybe sombody else can jump in.....

cheers

PV


----------



## Burrows

There you go, as far as the flag issue, it is allowed.


----------



## PViddy

Now futhering that, i would say that is is tolerable...not incouraged.  I know at my own unit, i don't thnk any cadet has the flag still sewn on.  Mainly because the Officers themselves ran on misinformation and rumors for the last ten years about wheather you can have the flag on, or not-as you can see this has recently been clarrified for air units mainly.  take it for what it's worth.


cheers

PV


----------



## Pte Joker

i thought this was a CADETPAT topic not a freaking flag topic i wear the flag and reg force and reserve guys have seen me with it they don't seem to care i love Canada would not want to live any where else so I'm keeping it on and now lets get back to the CADETPAT now do any of you have a link or pics of the new one with black buttons


----------



## PViddy

> thought this was a CADETPAT topic not a freaking flag topic i wear the flag and reg force and reserve guys have seen me with it they don't seem to care i love Canada would not want to live any where else so I'm keeping it on and now lets get back to the CADETPAT now do any of you have a link or pics of the new one with black buttons



Actually, I, among other wer trying to clear up a few misconceptions.  Deal with it.


PV


----------



## Dane

CATO 46-01 Main Document

16. Combat uniforms purchased by cadets are
not to be taken to ACSTC, unless otherwise
directed in course joining instructions. They
may be worn at the cadet corps during exercises
or adventure training when authorized by the
Cadets Corps CO. *An authorized headdress with
insignia and cadet rank slip-ons shall be worn
with CF combat clothing.*


----------



## Scott

Burgoyne said:
			
		

> i thought this was a CADETPAT topic not a freaking flag topic i wear the flag and reg force and reserve guys have seen me with it they don't seem to care i love Canada would not want to live any where else so I'm keeping it on and now lets get back to the CADETPAT now do any of you have a link or pics of the new one with black buttons



Wind your bloody neck in. Five posts and your bossing people around? 

Read this: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/35071.0.html and abide by it.


----------



## Pte Joker

hmmmm i was NOT trying to boss people around but look the last topic wetn down cause of it going off course so hmm i wonder whats going to happen to this one if you guys go off topic like that


----------



## Scott

So happy to have your advice and opinions  : Here's my advice once more - wind your neck in or face the consequences. 

Haven't read this yet, have you? Please do so.

Your posts are adding nothing to this thread. There was a debate going over what was permissable re: flags, etc. on the Cadet uniform and there were some differing opinions, that is what the threads are for - sharing of opinions, information and debate thereof. The last CADETPAT thread was shut down for beating one particular subject to death, and beyond, the same will happen here if the actions repeat themselves - I don't see that happening yet so no need to worry. 

It's not what you say, it's how you say it and tone is hard to convey via type.


----------



## Strike

Hello all,

Just thought I'd pass on that there is now an investigationg going on within the CF with respect to CADPAT clothing that is being sold on the internet and through surplus stores.  The issue at hand is that CADPAT is not authorized for non-military sale.  I'm not talking the stuff that you get from Wheelers (aka CP Gear), as that is a different design of clothing using the CADPAT material.  I'm talking the actual clothing that we get issued in the reg and res.

So, if you do indeed have such clothing in your posession, just make sure you CYA.

Just to give you all a heads up, in case you start to hear rumours of it running down the pipe.


----------



## Scott

This is the *CADET*Pat thread, the pattern designed for the Cadets, not CADPAT which soldiers wear. The articles reporting illegal sale of CADPAT items have been available on this site for a few days now.


----------



## ryanmann356

Thats very interesting seeing as some cadet corps allow their cadets to wear cadpat.
If this is true and a cadet desperately wanted a digital patterned camouflage, then wouldnt it be a better idea to buy the cadetpat?
Personally I dont understand the cadet fascination with cadpat.  Cadets cannot wear cadpat.  Digital camouflage works its been proven.  So if a cadet would covet cadpat so much and is unauthorized to wear it wouldn't the next best thing be cadetpat?


----------



## yoman

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> Thats very interesting seeing as some cadet corps allow their cadets to wear cadpat.
> If this is true and a cadet desperately wanted a digital patterned camouflage, then wouldnt it be a better idea to buy the cadetpat?
> Personally I dont understand the cadet fascination with cadpat.  Cadets cannot wear cadpat.  Digital camouflage works its been proven.  So if a cadet would covet cadpat so much and is unauthorized to wear it wouldn't the next best thing be cadetpat?



I have been told by senior cadets at my unit that cadets can wear CADPAT (fake or real stuff not sure) as long as they are properly identified as a cadet (IE: cadet rank slip ons). Currently there are cadets wearing the fake CADPAT on field exercises.

My 0.02 cents


----------



## Cpl.Banks

I personally think that cadets should stick to the old OD's. For some very simple reasons:
1) We won't be mistaken as "child Soldiers"...especially with the protests going on this weekend,
2) It looks ridiculous to have 1/3 of cadets in OD's, 1/3 in civi's and god forbid 1/3 in fake cadpat,
3) Lastly the old OD's are a great way of bringing in a quasi military feel to cadets and brings more interest in comming down. I know wearing combats is always a great change after wearing dress for a while.

A quick question, the cadetpat looks like what exactly...similar to cadpat? Any info would be great.
Thanks


----------



## yoman

C/ M.Bdr. Banks said:
			
		

> I personally think that cadets should stick to the old OD's. For some very simple reasons:
> 1) We won't be mistaken as "child Soldiers"...especially with the protests going on this weekend,
> 2) It looks ridiculous to have 1/3 of cadets in OD's, 1/3 in civi's and god forbid 1/3 in fake cadpat,
> 3) Lastly the old OD's are a great way of bringing in a quasi military feel to cadets and brings more interest in comming down. I know wearing combats is always a great change after wearing dress for a while.
> 
> A quick question, the cadetpat looks like what exactly...similar to cadpat? Any info would be great.
> Thanks



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36904.0.html

Scroll down a bit on the page and you will see what it looks like.

On a second note, try searching next time.


----------



## Cpl.Banks

Thanks


----------



## Michael OLeary

Mr Banks, here is the image he was directing you to:







The second part of his message is that there is a lot of information on these forums, which you can find for yourself quite easily be using the search feature.  Please don't ask others to do the work for you, at least until you have tried to find something yourself.

Attitude will not endear you to the staff or the regular users at Army.ca.


----------



## Cpl.Banks

Thanks, you are probably refering to a remark I made but curtly modified seeing the error of my ways. You are right of course I did not bother with the search function, won't happen again.


----------



## ryanmann356

In response to Yoman's post:

We were told by just about all of our officers that cadets are simply *not allowed to wear cadpat*
I trust my officers in being right on this, and if they are mounting an investigation into civilian sale and use of CF Cadpat then I'm fairly sure its a no-no for cadets.  
Even the CSMs in Vernon wearing cadpat slip ons became a big issue if I remember correctly


----------



## Strike

Scott,

I thought it prudent to put in that bit of info (ref the article and NIS investigations) for two reasons:

1.  PViddy mentioned something on the last page about being permitted to wear CADPAT.
2.  There was no mention about the illegality of purchasing said type of garment, which was officially brought to the public eye a few days ago.

As there were already several posts relating to CADPAT, I didn't think I would get jumped on so fiercely about this small bit of advice.


----------



## Burrows

Burgoyne said:
			
		

> hmmmm i was NOT trying to boss people around but look the last topic wetn down cause of it going off course so hmm i wonder whats going to happen to this one if you guys go off topic like that


Let the moderators do our jobs Mr. Burgoyne.  We are extremely capable of doing it, and from your position as a newer poster, we would appreciate if you don't try and tell us how to do our jobs.


----------



## yoman

PViddy said:
			
		

> Also CADPAT clothing, can be considered as official CF clothing under CATO 55-04 (air) and therfore if purchased lawfully would be authorized for wear with "cadet" slip ons, and proper head dress (the question than beng can CADPAT be purchased lawfully ? probably not) NOTE* that the CF CADPAT tilly is not a form of authorized head dress under CATO 55-04.



In response to Strike's post.



			
				C/ M.Bdr. Banks said:
			
		

> Thanks



No problem. And I'm sorry if I was a bit rude there.


----------



## condor888000

The impass once again. While it is permissable for an AIR cadet to wear CADPAT(technically at least), it is not legally possibe to obtain it. Ah the joys of cadet life.....:


----------



## yoman

Piper said:
			
		

> Hmmmmm. Well, if it is illegal to sell real CADPAT, then cadets who purchase it are in possession of stolen property and are duty bound to return it. However, I just somehow don't see that happening. Somehow I think the NDA takes precedence over some teenaged senior cadets. But thats just my opinion.
> 
> And I digress, back to the regularily schedualed topic. Sorry about that.



The question is, if a cadet is wearing the fake CADPAT would you rather have him wearing a cadet rank slip on and head dress or having nothing identifying him because it is "civilian clothing"?


----------



## condor888000

The real question is why would any cadet with smarts or more likely their own money pay double for the fake stuff when compared to what you pay for the old OD's? 

With which you had better be wearing your slip ons I may add.

If you want to go by the rule of the CATO, smack them if they do. Especially since what is to prevent someone from going and buying some hunter gear from Canadian Tire and wearing the slip ons with that? 

As both the fake CADPAT and the hunter gear is not a CF issue uniform, then no cadet should wear the slip ons, beret, wedge, tilley, or toque with them. 

Got it?


----------



## yoman

condor888000 said:
			
		

> The real question is why would any cadet with smarts or more likely their own money pay double for the fake stuff when compared to what you pay for the old OD's?
> 
> With which you had better be wearing your slip ons I may add.
> 
> If you want to go by the rule of the CATO, smack them if they do. Especially since what is to prevent someone from going and buying some hunter gear from Canadian Tire and wearing the slip ons with that?
> 
> As both the fake CADPAT and the hunter gear is not a CF issue uniform, then no cadet should wear the slip ons, beret, wedge, tilley, or toque with them.
> 
> Got it?



You didn't answer my question...

And I wear OD's. You know that.

And yes I know the rule bible says differently. And don't get me started with the toque and when to wear it, so many people wear it to school etc.


----------



## condor888000

Sometime Yoman your lack of reading amazes me. 



			
				condor888000 said:
			
		

> As both the fake CADPAT and the hunter gear is not a CF issue uniform, then no cadet should wear the slip ons, beret, wedge, tilley, or toque with them.



It doesn't matter my opinion. It doesn't matter your opinion. The CATO's clearly state that if a cadet is wearing civillian look alikes, then the slip ons shall not be worn. Its in black and white, that is what you do. Plain and simple.

So, yes, the cadet should not be permitted to wear the slip ons.


----------



## yoman

All right you win this fight  ;D


----------



## Scott

Couldn't you all just leave CADPAT, real or fake, the heck alone? You know it's a hot potato, why bother? You have CADETPAT so wear it and leave the other uniform out of the fray. PROVE to em that it is legal for you to have in your possession and wear CADPAT and the discussion can continue, otherwise methinks this dead horse is starting to stink.



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> Scott,
> 
> I thought it prudent to put in that bit of info (ref the article and NIS investigations) for two reasons:
> 
> 1.  PViddy mentioned something on the last page about being permitted to wear CADPAT.
> 2.  There was no mention about the illegality of purchasing said type of garment, which was officially brought to the public eye a few days ago.
> 
> As there were already several posts relating to CADPAT, I didn't think I would get jumped on so fiercely about this small bit of advice.



Don't think I was fierce in jumping on anyone, however I do apologize if I made you feel that way - not my intent.


----------



## Strike

This whole CADETPAT vs OD combats is really not a new issue.  We see this everyday in the reg and res.  Someone would rather pay a few extra dollars for civvie kit that they deem to be a better quality (or even for something that looks cooler) when the issue kit does the job just as well.  I'm guilty of it myself.  I would much rather use my MEC sleeping bag (synthetic, smaller cut, and has an attached hood) than the issued down one.

So, you guys aren't alone in this debate.  It is the same one that you see in numerous threads in equipment on this site.


----------



## ryanmann356

Perhaps someone could shed some light on something.  Are the cadets with cadetpat allowed to wear cadpat slip ons?  I have been told that its not allowed by some people yet other people say its ok, and the CSMs in Vernon wore them as well.  Some people say its ok as long as the "Canada" badge wasn't sewn onto it, I'm not sure who to listen too  :


----------



## ouyin2000

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> Perhaps someone could shed some light on something.  Are the cadets with cadetpat allowed to wear cadpat slip ons?  I have been told that its not allowed by some people yet other people say its ok, and the CSMs in Vernon wore them as well.  Some people say its ok as long as the "Canada" badge wasn't sewn onto it, I'm not sure who to listen too  :


No

You are required to wear your dress slip on, with the gold embroidered rank.

The reason the CSMs at Vernon did, was because the Cadetpat slip ons they had were garbage and ended up in the Vernon dump, so the Camp RSM authorised them to wear the CADPAT ones with the CANADA tab, for the whole 24 hours they wore the Cadetpat uniforms.


----------



## Burrows

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> No
> 
> You are required to wear your dress slip on, with the gold embroidered rank.
> 
> The reason the CSMs at Vernon did, was because the Cadetpat slip ons they had were garbage and ended up in the Vernon dump, so the Camp RSM authorised them to wear the CADPAT ones with the CANADA tab, for the whole 24 hours they wore the Cadetpat uniforms.



So for 24 hours there were no dark green and gold embroidered CADET rank slip-ons?


----------



## ryanmann356

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> No
> 
> You are required to wear your dress slip on, with the gold embroidered rank.
> 
> The reason the CSMs at Vernon did, was because the Cadetpat slip ons they had were garbage and ended up in the Vernon dump, so the Camp RSM authorised them to wear the CADPAT ones with the CANADA tab, for the whole 24 hours they wore the Cadetpat uniforms.



hmm interesting.  I've seen the kind of cadetpat material at Wallmart, I wonder if one made a slip on out of the material and sewd on an OD rank insignia if that would be ok to wear?


----------



## ouyin2000

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> So for 24 hours there were no dark green and gold embroidered CADET rank slip-ons?


According to the Camp RSM, you're correct.

I did not say he was right.

Ryanman: Before the ACICO for Vancouver Island gave us the order that "no CADPAT is to be worn by cadets", I had a couple of cadets get a hold of blank slip ons (most likely from eBay), and have them embroidered with their rank and CADET in OD thread.

I think that an OD rank badge on a CADPAT slip on would look kind of ugly.


----------



## ryanmann356

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> I think that an OD rank badge on a CADPAT slip on would look kind of ugly.



It would be more effective than a full dress epaulette, with the gold sewing


----------



## Dane

Piper said:
			
		

> More effective for WHAT?
> 
> Wait, nevermind. I know where this is going.



Ha ha ha ha... but doesn't it make you laugh?

There is nothing anywhere that would imply CADPAT slip ons are authorized, and there are RCI's in some regions that say they are explicitly disallowed, or through implication Cadet's are told not to use them.

RSCU (Pac) demands a brassard if I'm not mistaken. I haven't read it in awhile.


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## ouyin2000

Effective for what?

What are you trying to hide from that you can't take 10 seconds to take off the slip on and put it in your pocket?


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## ryanmann356

Piper said:
			
		

> More effective for WHAT?
> Wait, nevermind. I know where this is going.



fine, bad choice of words. :
I NEVER implied that wearing a cadpat slip on was authorized, I was asking if it was, and that since my last post, has been cleared up. 



			
				ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> Effective for what?
> 
> What are you trying to hide from that you can't take 10 seconds to take off the slip on and put it in your pocket?



Thats fine, you could do that to but what I meant was, it would be nice to have something that didnt stick out like a sore thumb on your uniform, the full dress slip ons are ugly enough without having them on the combat uniform.  Feel free to disagree if you like em, but I dont.  Have you ever seen a reg/reserve member wearing a full dress slip on, on his cadpat uniform?  The dress slip ons dont look right on the combats.


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## ouyin2000

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> Have you ever seen a reg/reserve member wearing a full dress slip on, on his cadpat uniform?  The dress slip ons dont look right on the combats.


This is another one of those Identification Issues. The reason you are required to wear the dress slip ons is so you can be easily picked out of a crowd.

As Dane said, Pac Region (doesn't demand) allows cadets to wear an OD brassard on OD combats, with the OD rank badge and unti badge(s).


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## ryanmann356

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> This is another one of those Identification Issues.



Perhaps if they made badges that say "cadet" instead of "Canada" on the camouflaged slip ons?


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## Scott

Am I wrong or are you guys starting to argue the aesthetic appeal of slip on's? Are you guys considering fashion sense here? Do you not want to clash?  ;D

I'm thinking, right now, of the part of Good Morning Vietnam when Robin Williams is doing a monologue about a, very obviously, gay military fashion designers.

He was going on about how soldiers should take the fashion risk and clash.

I apologize if I offended any fashion designers.  ;D


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## ouyin2000

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> Perhaps if they made badges that say "cadet" instead of "Canada" on the camouflaged slip ons?


You can find OD combat slip on tabs that say CADET. The canteen at Vernon Army CSTC sells them, and i'm sure your SupO could get a hold of some. You might want to check in the CATOs as well as your regional orders first, though, to see exactly what you're allowed to wear.


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## c.jacob

I've seen them once and I've never been able to get a hold of any.  I think it might just be something somebody had made so that they could sell them like the baseball caps.  I could be wrong though.


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## Scott

IIRC, the dress slip on was worn on the old garrison jacket.

Someone a bit, ahem, older than me should be able to clarify that for you.


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## ryanmann356

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> You can find OD combat slip on tabs that say CADET. The canteen at Vernon Army CSTC sells them



yeah that would work well too, I've seen a few cadets from the other corps that works out of our armoury wearing them too, but only on the ODs, I havent seen any of them wearing cadetpat


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## cadettrooper

ouyin2000 said:
			
		

> You can find OD combat slip on tabs that say CADET. The canteen at Vernon Army CSTC sells them


          does anyone know how to get them (other than Vernon) or anyone who has 'em are willing to sell them?


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## SoldierBoi69

Well I don't know how you guys do it but the CO of my corps. has allowed us to wear any (accept dessert) camies, that includes real cadpat (we got a place in the province that you can buy it), the civi cadpat you can buy at any army surplus, British Camies, American Camies(including marpat if you can get it), I even have a pair of Russian Camies I wear. No one has "CadetPat" or Cadpat slip on's. Before I saw this I hadn't even heard of CadetPat.
                                                   C/Pte. M. Legare

                             P.S. Don't complain or argue, cuz its just what we do.


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## ryanmann356

C/Pte. M. Legare said:
			
		

> Well I don't know how you guys do it but the CO of my corps. has allowed us to wear any (accept dessert) camies, that includes real cadpat (we got a place in the province that you can buy it), the civi cadpat you can buy at any army surplus, British Camies, American Camies(including marpat if you can get it), I even have a pair of Russian Camies I wear. No one has "CadetPat" or Cadpat slip on's. Before I saw this I hadn't even heard of CadetPat.
> C/Pte. M. Legare
> 
> P.S. Don't complain or argue, cuz its just what we do.




hehehehe.....where oh where should I begin????


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## Caleix

I see many pages of useless REMOVED & Moaning in the near future....unless a mederator blows a blood vessel and goes postal on us.

Caleix

p.s- DUCK AND COVER!!! :warstory:


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## Michael OLeary

And I believe this may be a good place for a 'time-out' lock.  Check back in case the thread is ever reopened.

I would normally say "if you have something constructive to add, contact a Moderator", but the likelihood that there is new and constructive material to add to this thread is low.


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## Burrows

Remember, swearing in the cadet forums is prohibited.


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## Tweed

Hello, I'm sorry is this has been asked but, If CADETPAT is meant to look like this , http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36904.0
 Then how come it looks like this..? http://www3.telus.net/aclc/ I'm just wondering because i was going to order some, but if it looks like but the ACLC site shows it as, no thanks...the picture on the Army.ca fourms was better.. so does it look like what the ACLC's sites shows it as?



    -Tweed


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