# New Training Vessels



## Ex-Dragoon (9 Nov 2004)

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1099967861855_95377061/?hub=Canada

From the CTV news site


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## Inch (9 Nov 2004)

Wow, I guess the tendering of that bid got overshadowed by the Cyclone bid. I've never even heard of it before. It's a start, hopefully of more good things to come.

Cheers


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## NavyGrunt (9 Nov 2004)

I was on a yag a month ago and they were fine. I cant see why THATS what they choose to replace, its a very basic boat. if they keep it painted and kept up I dont see why they need to replace these, its used to teach the basics of sailing to officers...

Well I guess its good that they are shelling out some dough...but I think 69 mil would have been well spent somewhere else,

Or maybe this is a case of "damned if you do, damned if you dont"....


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## SeaKingTacco (9 Nov 2004)

I know alot of the Officer's at VENTURE (Naval Officer Trg establishment) and they all say that YAGs are way overdue for replacement.  They are 50 years old, made of wood, do not conform to any modern anti-pollution laws, are unbelieveably slow and running out of spare parts.  

On the other hand, they are a real nice size and can get into some small harbours.  

Things will definitely change in the MARS officer trg world...


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## MissHardie (9 Nov 2004)

Mr. White,

Well, not all the YAGs are fine.  On my MARS II practical this summer, two of 'em collided (T-boned, I think, is the proper term) and had some pretty obvious hull damange. 

These new boats won't solely be used for MARS trainees though - they'll have removable guns mounted (removable so us MARS nitwits won't have an accident? probably) and be used for coast guard duties when not otherwise in use.  They won't be that much bigger, either.

Personally, I'm looking forward to playing with new ships and bridges, ones where I can actually see my nav points when I take the bearings off the polaris.


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## NavyGrunt (9 Nov 2004)

69 million could set up a proper port security system instead of 3 shads in a canoe with 1 rifle.

My time on the yags was always pleasurable. Minimal amount of crew required- it can be sailed with 2 people.....

the Oriole is made of wood as well....that doesnt make a vessel bad. And it teaches officers just what is intended- how to sail. Old doesnt mean it needs to be replaced. If they didnt comply with environmental laws they wouldnt be sailed I can assure you of that, This is another shot in the dark. Who decides the priorities of what needs to be replaced?

Im sorry you had a bad experience Miss Hardie. But new boats wont make you guys better sailors ;D.I havent had an issue. These boast arent fast enough again for coast guard duties.....so I see that as a no go as far as secondary duties.


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## Danjanou (9 Nov 2004)

Aaron White said:
			
		

> 69 million could set up a proper port security system instead of 3 shads in a canoe with 1 rifle.



Actually I think the news report said there were 6 being built, with an option of two more. no mention of how many rifles came with it though? 8)


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## MissHardie (9 Nov 2004)

I wouldn't quite call it a bad experience - it wasn't _my_ YAG that collided, but I did get a front row view.  Nasty cracks in the stern there were.  Overall though, the YAG trip was the best part of MARS II.  

MARS are supposed to be sailors? I thought we just told everyone what we wanted them to do and let them sort it out.  Isn't that the point behind the infamous DeckO safety circle?  

But to cut the tongue in cheek - Bos'n was my top choice if I didn't go officer.  It sounded like much fun, and the YAG trip just reinforced that. 

Maybe the new boats will have a top speed greater than 11 knots? One can hope. 
I thought there was an option of 4 more? Maybe I'm getting my numbers mixed up.  I do know there's going to be a mounted gun though.


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## Cloud Cover (9 Nov 2004)

MissHardie ... any visits to Salt Spring Island yet?


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## MissHardie (9 Nov 2004)

whiskey 601,

Yes, we spent a night docked in Ganges.  I was on duty that night though so I didn't get to see much of the town other than the shower facilities. 

I had to look up Salt Spring Island on a chart before I could remember if I'd been there or not.


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## casca (10 Nov 2004)

Has anyone seen or heard what the new ships will look like? I know they will be called the Orca class, but i'm wondering what they will look like and if they will have any other roles other than MARS training?


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## Ex-Dragoon (10 Nov 2004)

MissHardie alludes to patrol duties above.


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## Cloud Cover (10 Nov 2004)

MissHardie said:
			
		

> I do know there's going to be a mounted gun though.



Is that right? ... well, that's a visible change in attitude right there. What do you mean by "coast guard duties" ... 12 mile fish pat and harbour security? Cheers.


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## SeaKingTacco (10 Nov 2004)

> 69 million could set up a proper port security system instead of 3 shads in a canoe with 1 rifle.



What part of the PSS don't you like?  I would take you more seriously without the sarcasm, Aaron.



> the Oriole is made of wood as well....that doesnt make a vessel bad. And it teaches officers just what is intended- how to sail.



You are right, wood is not "bad".  It is, however, expensive and time-consuming to maintain.  Ask any "yachtie"...
Fair enough comment about the sail training- but I doubt that we could talk treasury board into buying the Navy enough sailing ships to give all of our MARS officers sail exposure.



> If they didnt comply with environmental laws they wouldnt be sailed I can assure you of that, This is another shot in the dark.


We might be talking semantics here- waste from a YAG is not "treated" in the sense that a modern sewage treatment plant would- which causes problems when in harbour and basically prevents the vessels entry into US waters (which limits training opportunities).

The nice thing about YAGs is that they were dedicated training platforms.  The Orcas may find other work as well, like sovereignty patrolling, which could impact on MARS trg.  The concept photos of it that I have seen shows a .50 cal mounted forward.  At 20 kts, they are 5 kts faster than an MCDV- which do alot of soveriegnity patrolling now.  Frankly, any Navy vessel is showing a presence and enforcing sovereignity any time they are out of Halifax and Esquimalt.


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## mdh (10 Nov 2004)

If you t-bone a YAG does that mean you flunk MARS 2


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## MissHardie (10 Nov 2004)

whiskey 601,

I'll qualify my statements about the new ships by saying they're what I heard on our unit indoctrination day in September -- from the CO though, so I consider my information to be fairly accurate.  I vividly remember seeing a mounted gun on the specs, so unless they've done some radical redesigning they should still be there.  

Otherwise, I refer you to SeaKingTacco's post as he seems to know far more specifics on the topic than I. 

mdh,

On MARS II us students aren't responsible for what happens to the YAGs (other than cleanliness).  I'd imagine that if you enter into the MARS III Death Wobble and t-bone another YAG on the course you'd be in some trouble though, because then you're actually supposed to know what you're doing.


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## buckahed (10 Nov 2004)

50 year old wooden boats and MARS students? Did the stokers get hazardous duty pay?


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## aesop081 (10 Nov 2004)

*69 million could set up a proper port security system instead of 3 shads in a canoe with 1 rifle.

What part of the PSS don't you like?  I would take you more seriously without the sarcasm, Aaron*.



Seems to be a recuring theme with "Mr MP5"............


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## NavyGrunt (11 Nov 2004)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> *69 million could set up a proper port security system instead of 3 shads in a canoe with 1 rifle.
> 
> What part of the PSS don't you like?   I would take you more seriously without the sarcasm, Aaron*.
> 
> ...



Im sorry you feel that way. As for my "sarcasm" there wasnt any. The current PSS is a Rhib with 3 reservists(hence the SHAD comment- Im a shad its not a big deal) and 1 C7. Its not an effective model. They dont board, they are exposed to the elements more than they should be. The boats are to slow. They make due with what they have but ask anyone on the teams and they'll give you a laundry list of things they'd like improved. And it needs to be improved.

The MCDV's have been embarrased durting sovereinty patrols becuase of their speeds and these will get the same. And regarding YAGS in US waters we were in the Puget Sound with them not even 2 mos ago.

Thanks for adding your 2 cents though Aesop.


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## SeaKingTacco (11 Nov 2004)

Aaron White said:
			
		

> Im sorry you feel that way. As for my "sarcasm" there wasnt any. The current PSS is a Rhib with 3 reservists(hence the SHAD comment- Im a shad its not a big deal) and 1 C7. Its not an effective model. They dont board, they are exposed to the elements more than they should be. The boats are to slow. They make due with what they have but ask anyone on the teams and they'll give you a laundry list of things they'd like improved. And it needs to be improved.
> 
> The MCDV's have been embarrased durting sovereinty patrols becuase of their speeds and these will get the same. And regarding YAGS in US waters we were in the Puget Sound with them not even 2 mos ago.
> 
> Thanks for adding your 2 cents though Aesop.



Granted, PSS could use a better boat.   I'm led to believe that those are in the works.   My point was that a RHIB (with all its faults) is not a canoe.   As for the doctrine side- keep making suggestions up the chain.   It is the only way things change (and things do change for the better).

Didn't know about the Puget Sound trip (must have been for Ex Sea Hawk?)- that's the first US trip I have heard of in a while in for a YAG.   Hope that you had fun.

I guess the final point about the speed of the Orcas is that- they are trg boats first and "operational boats" second.   A slow speed gives the MARS officers a chance to learn without their heads popping off!   If we need FPBs, we should purpose build them- but I have yet to see a convincing need for them.   Anyone care to provide an argument in favour?

Cheers.


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## jmacleod (11 Nov 2004)

Readers seeking YAG updates, might go to CASR DND Navy Systems Section-Training Vessels
today, 11 November 2004 for photographs of existing YAGS, and news about new vessels.
None of our guys have seen an RFP from DND or PW&GS Canada about a replacement, and
have, thus far, found no specs. Pleased to see a Canadian Shipyard generating some badly
needed work however. MacLeod


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## NavyGrunt (11 Nov 2004)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Granted, PSS could use a better boat.   I'm led to believe that those are in the works.   My point was that a RHIB (with all its faults) is not a canoe.   As for the doctrine side- keep making suggestions up the chain.   It is the only way things change (and things do change for the better).
> 
> Didn't know about the Puget Sound trip (must have been for Ex Sea Hawk?)- that's the first US trip I have heard of in a while in for a YAG.   Hope that you had fun.
> 
> Cheers.



I had a blast on SeaHawk.
 Im not crapping on the RHIBs. A canoe was an unfair comparison for sure. They are good for certain applications but they arent super great for intercepting- there are MUCH faster boats out there and the RHIB isnt armed well enough. The Americans have 50 cals mounted on RHIBs- that is stopping power. A C7 does not have the stopping power required. The RHIB is good for delivering personnel.

As for an Argument for FPB's at present they arent required but they have been throwing around the idea of following suit with the Yanks and deploying Port Security Units overseas eventually to secure water ways and protect HVA's. This will require a new set of boats/tactics. Its would be easier to ge started on that now instead of waiting and deploying our present set up and having to play catch up later.

My problem with this "upgrade" to Orca class seems to be more about putting money into some companies than an honest attempt at correcting some Naval issues. My first remarks may have seemed flippant but they most certainly werent supposed to be inflamatory. Its was just quick note in passing.


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## Ex-Dragoon (11 Nov 2004)

I would like to see us get a dedicated inshore patrol capablity. Not only could we use the PBs for harbour security but we could also use them to actually patrol our coastlines. Such a force would cut down on smuggling and also provide a search and rescue presence as well. Arming such craft with light cannon such as 20 mm (backed up by a couple of .50s) would provide a deterence level needed for most security ops and the fire power if needed. Most PBs are fast and are not man power intensive so they are economical to run.


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## aesop081 (11 Nov 2004)

*My problem with this "upgrade" to Orca class seems to be more about putting money into some companies than an honest attempt at correcting some Naval issues.*

Does this not remind you of the LSVW, The new Challengers, ..........I think you may have a point there


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## NavyGrunt (11 Nov 2004)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> I would like to see us get a dedicated inshore patrol capablity. Not only could we use the PBs for harbour security but we could also use them to actually patrol our coastlines. Such a force would cut down on smuggling and also provide a search and rescue presence as well. Arming such craft with light cannon such as 20 mm (backed up by a couple of .50s) would provide a deterence level needed for most security ops and the fire power if needed. Most PBs are fast and are not man power intensive so they are economical to run.



Yes I think the PB's could be run well with a 4-6 man crew small, and high speed. We do need a  deterence for smugglers. They see our coastlines as open season( according to the Americans- so take what you will from that) I dont think the boasts themselves are that expensive- but again the amount of quick boats required would be a price and manning factor. We have an awful lot of shoreline. Of course I doubt people are trying to smuggle drugs into Baffin Island. Maybe if we prioritize coatline- North requires soveriengty patrols, B.C. requires a a mix of smaller interception boats as well as soveriengty....and so on.




			
				aesop081 said:
			
		

> *My problem with this "upgrade" to Orca class seems to be more about putting money into some companies than an honest attempt at correcting some Naval issues.*
> 
> Does this not remind you of the LSVW, The new Challengers, ..........I think you may have a point there



Yeah it does unfortunately remind me of them....


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## DJL (11 Nov 2004)

> My problem with this "upgrade" to Orca class seems to be more about putting money into some companies than an honest attempt at correcting some Naval issues. My first remarks may have seemed flippant but they most certainly werent supposed to be inflamatory. Its was just quick note in passing.



Hmmmmmm......Are you saying that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence, Dr Keith Martin (Member of Parliament for* Esquimalt*-Juan de Fuca), the very same MP that defected from the Conservative party to the Liberals, and during the election campaign, campaigned on "restoring shipbuilding on the Left Coast" and whose riding includes Victoria Shipbuilding (company that won the bid) could be about a game of dirty, back room pool? Nah......thats crazy talk.


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## Phrontis (12 Dec 2004)

The ORCA Class YAG replacement vessels will be very welcome, as the current YAGs are 50 years old, were not designed for their current use, and are sub-par in terms of modern habitability standards. The ORCAs will have sufficient planning space for the navigation training conducted in these vessels, and will be fitted with state-of-the-art systems, such as electronic chart and nav radars. The greater speed available and enclosed bridge will also increase their ability to train at sea.


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## FSTO (13 Dec 2004)

A couple of things:

Port security are getting new boats (2 for each coast)
They are based on the Lifetimer type boats
There will be all weather protection for the crew (bosun and MP's)

.50 cal in harbour; are you nuts!!!! Talk about collateral damage!

The current YAGs are killing our budget, the maintenace of the wooden hulls are very expensive.
The training of the MARS officers in the yags are limited due to the poor electronic package which has little commonality to what they will be exposed to on the MCDVs and the heavies.

Oracs will be an excellent platform for MARS training and its patrol duties will be limited to inshore Gulf Islands, Strait of Georgia, Inside Passage and maybe if the weather is nice, Broken Island Group Nootka Sound.


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