# Polish Civilian and Military Leadership Killed in Crash



## tomahawk6 (10 Apr 2010)

My sympathies to our Polish friends on the loss of President  Kaczynski and so many of Polands finest civilian and military leaders.

Crash scene.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8612902.stm



> MOSCOW – Polish President Lech Kaczynski and some of the country's highest military and civilian leaders died when the presidential plane crashed as it came in for a landing in thick fog in western Russia on Saturday, killing 96, officials said.
> 
> Russian and Polish officials said there were no survivors on the Soviet-era Tupolev, which was taking the president, his wife and staff to events marking the 70th anniversary of the massacre of thousands of Polish officers by Soviet secret police.
> 
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (10 Apr 2010)

Yikes!  Condolences - we mourn with you.

I'm guessing this is going to be postponed - just released yesterday:


> Prime Minister Stephen Harper today announced that Donald Tusk, Prime Minister of Poland, will lead a delegation of government representatives on a working visit to Canada April 14 to 15.  This is the Polish Prime Minister’s first visit to Canada ....


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## vonGarvin (10 Apr 2010)

RIP!  This is horrible news!


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## Tetragrammaton (10 Apr 2010)

Given the high ranking nature of the passengers and the flight itself, I have to consider the possibility of a deliberate act.

I find it curious why you would ever have so many key government and military personnel traveling together?

"A scan of a list of 88 passengers aboard the plane published on a Polish government website showed the names of Poland's chief of staff, General Franciszek Gagor, and Major General Bronislaw, head of operational forces.

General Tadeusz Buk, head of land forces, air force commander Andrzej Blasik and special forces chief Wojciech Potasinki, as well as navy vice-admiral Andrzej Karweta, were also on the list."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...?section=world


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## vonGarvin (10 Apr 2010)

They were en route to Russia, for a commemoration at Katyn.  No conspiracy here.


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## George Wallace (10 Apr 2010)

This really is a tragedy.  Such a large number of a nation's political, military and social leaders, all killed in one aircrash will take quite a toll on the nation.  


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

 Polish president among 96 killed in Russian plane crash
10/04/2010 8:13:50 AM
Article Link

CTV.ca News Staff 
Polish President Lech Kaczynski and dozens of Polish dignitaries and politicians were among 96 people killed when the presidential plane crashed in western Russia on Saturday. 


*Russian and Polish officials said there were no survivors on the Tupolev, a Soviet-era plane. The president, his wife, Maria, and a delegation of Polish officials were on the plane for a one-and-a-half hour flight from Warsaw to attend ceremonies marking the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when thousands of Polish officers were killed by Soviet secret police. * 

The President was joined on board by the army chief of staff, the national bank president, the deputy foreign minister, an army chaplain, head of the National Security Office, the deputy parliamentary speaker, a civil rights commissioner and at least two presidential aides and three lawmakers, according to the Polish foreign ministry. 

Russia's Emergency Ministry said 96 people died in the crash, 88 of whom were from the Polish delegation. Piotr Paszkowski, Poland's foreign ministry spokesperson, said there were 89 people listed on the passenger list but one person had not shown up for the flight. 

"We still cannot fully understand the scope of this tragedy and what it means for us in the future. Nothing like this has ever happened in Poland," Paszkowski said. "We can assume with great certainty that all persons on board have been killed."

Poland's parliamentary speaker, the interim president, declared a national week of mourning. 

The crash occurred at about 11 a.m. local time in Russia's Smolensk region. The governor of the region also said there were no survivors. 

Anna Ardayeva, a reporter with Feature News Story in Moscow, said there will be an investigation into what caused the crash. 

"The Russians have set up an investigative committee and investigators are trying to find out why the pilot decided to land in what looks like were unfavourable weather conditions," Ardayeva told CTV News Channel in a telephone interview Saturday morning. "It was very foggy, and according to some reports, the plane touched treetops upon landing, and then the crew lost control of it." 

Footage of the crash from Russian news stations showed pieces of the plane scattered among trees, with small fires burning in the foggy woods. 

The Tupolev Tu-154 was at least 20 years old. There have been 66 crashes involving Tu-154s, including six in the last five years, according to the Aviation Safety Network. Officials in Poland have discussed replacing the planes that carry Polish leaders, but said they have yet to due to lack of funds. 

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev promised to work closely with Poland on the crash investigation and sent his condolences to the Polish people. 

"Russia shares the grief and mourning of Poland," Medvedev said in a statement posted on the Kremlin Web site. "Please accept the most sincere condolences to the Polish people, words of compassion and support to relatives and friends of those who perished." 

The Kremlin said Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin will head a commission that will investigate the crash. 

Leaders from around the world joined Medvedev in issuing statements of condolence to the Polish people. 

In Poland, citizens and politicians reacted to news of the crash with shock and tears. Mourners lit candles and lay flowers on the ground outside the presidential palace in Warsaw, where the flag was lowered to half mast. President Donald Tusk called an emergency meeting of cabinet. 

In the Polish government, the president is commander in chief of the country's armed forces but the domestic duties of the role are mainly symbolic. Kaczynski, 60, had been president since December 2005, when he defeated Tusk in the presidential vote.

with files from The Associated Press


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## pbi (10 Apr 2010)

This is sad. I had the honour to briefly meet the CLS of the Polish Army in Warsaw in 2008: he had a genuine professional interest in building ties between our two armies(the reason we were there). I hope this idea survives him.  A terrible reminder of why it's probably better not to fly around in old Soviet-pattern aircraft.

RIP


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## vonGarvin (10 Apr 2010)

From bild.de:


> Polens Präsident Lech Kaczynski († 60), der bei einem Flugzeugabsturz in Russland starb, war auf dem Weg zur polnisch-russischen Gedenkfeier an die Opfer von Katyn.


"Poland's president Lech Kaczynski, who died in a plane crash in Russia, was on the way to a Polish-Russian memorial service for the victims of Katyn."
Location of the crash:




Noted people on board:


> Ryzard Kaczorowski († 90), Polens ehemaliger Staatspräsident (Poland's former president)
> • Jerzy Szmajdziński († 58), Vizepräsident des polnischen Abgeordnetenhauses (Vice president of the polish parliament)
> • Władysław Stasiak, Chef der Präsidentenkanzlei (Chief of the president's chancellory)
> • Aleksander Szczygło († 56), Polens Ex-Verteidigungsminister  (Former minister of defence)
> ...


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## Yrys (10 Apr 2010)

Queen offers sympathy to Poland after president's death 

The Queen has expressed her "deepest sympathy" to the Polish government 
and people after the death of President Lech Kaczynski in a plane crash.
Gordon Brown said the whole world would be "saddened" and Tory leader 
David Cameron called it a "black day".

Rev Canon Bronislaw Gostomski, a priest at a Polish church in West London, 
was among more than 80 passengers who died. Members of the community 
in London have been gathering at a Polish cultural centre in Hammersmith 
to lay flowers.

The aircraft was carrying some of the country's top military and civilian leaders, 
as well as the president's wife, when it came down in thick fog as it approached 
Smolensk airport, in western Russia.


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## Tetragrammaton (10 Apr 2010)

Technoviking said:
			
		

> They were en route to Russia, for a commemoration at Katyn.  No conspiracy here.



Still.

Imagine if you put the commanding Generals of the US Army, US Marine Corps, US Air Force, US Navy and US Special Operations Command on one plane.

Then added the President and other members of his senior cabinet.

Then it crashed.

This should NEVER have been allowed and I fail to understand why it was done in this case.

Unfortunately a lot of key decisions around the world are being made these days solely based on financial limitations.

That being said, people can be sent up a day or two earlier or by various other forms of transport without significant expense.

I am first-generation Canadian born in Montreal, but my parents were Polish (from Nowy Targ and Rymanow) and still have more family there than here.

This whole thing strikes a little too close to home for me and it pisses me F-n off.


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## vonGarvin (10 Apr 2010)

Tetragrammaton said:
			
		

> Still.
> 
> Imagine if you put the commanding Generals of the US Army, US Marine Corps, US Air Force, US Navy and US Special Operations Command on one plane.
> 
> ...


I understand your feelings, and I'm certain that there will be a massive inquiry into this.  I just hope that there are no foundations to your fears.  The implications would be devestating.


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## Retired AF Guy (10 Apr 2010)

From Pravada.ru: 

 Article Link 



> President Kaczynski, Wife and Polish Delegation Killed in Plane Crash
> 
> 10.04.2010	Source: Pravda.Ru
> 
> ...


 (My emphasis)


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## leroi (10 Apr 2010)

Condolences to the people of Poland.

I'm still in shock over this news.


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## Retired AF Guy (10 Apr 2010)

Here is a link to a diagram showing the flight path and crash site:

http://visualrian.com/images/large/623102

Here is a link to a info sheet on the TU-154:

http://visualrian.com/images/large/550547


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## leroi (10 Apr 2010)

Prime Minister Harper offers condolences and announces the cancellation of Prime Minister Tusk's anticipated visit to Canada next week.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jx3Uwcvt_yfYP4zSSgJq0v-Q_d-w?index=0&ned=ca


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## Yrys (10 Apr 2010)

Crash focusses attention on Tupolev-154

The death of Polish President Lech Kaczynski in a plane crash is likely 
to raise questions about the 20-year-old Tupolev-154 he was travelling 
in. The BBC's Adam Easton reports from Warsaw that there had been 
calls for Polish leaders to upgrade their planes. And in late 2008 Mr 
Kaczynski had suffered a couple of scares. Problems with the aircraft's 
steering mechanism delayed his departure from Mongolia, forcing him 
to take a charter flight to Tokyo, and a week later the plane was caught 
up in turbulence flying to Seoul.

However, the aircraft had recently undergone a major overhaul and 
Aleksey Gusev, the head of the maintenance plant that carried out 
the work, told Polish TV that it should not have had technical problems.
"From the moment it entered service, the plane had had 5,004 flight 
hours and 1,823 landings, which for aircraft of this class is not a lot," 
he said. "The plane was flying quite well and there were no complaints."
The overhaul was completed in December and included repairing the 
plane's three engines. The next major service was due in six years.

*'Modernised'*

The Tupolev-154 was for more than a quarter of a century the backbone 
of Russia's and the Soviet Union's air transport system. It carried about 
half the number of all passengers flown by Russia's national carrier 
Aeroflot and its successors in that time, with that number peaking at 
137 million per year in 1990. About 1,000 were built, and some remain 
in service in Russia and countries that were once part of the Soviet bloc. 
The aircraft entered service in 1972 and was "modernised" in 1986, with 
new engines and equipment to improve its fuel consumption and flight 
operations. 

But as an indication of its ageing design, the Chinese government decided
in 2001 to withdraw the Tu-154 from its airlines. Aeroflot took the decision 
to phase them out more recently, saying their high fuel consumption made 
them uneconomic.

An expert on Russian aviation, Paul Duffy, assessed the safety record of the 
Tu-154 in 2004, for the BBC News website. Of 28 lost in accidents up to that 
date - a figure about normal for the quantity, years of service and technology 
of the type, in his view - few had crashed because of technical failure, he said.

*Unrelated problems*

"The Tu-154 operates in regions with not very good air traffic control and 
navigation equipment, and in very difficult weather conditions," he said at 
the time. Some of the accidents had little relation to the aircraft itself, he 
added.

For example, in 1982, an aircraft landing at Omsk in Russia in a heavy 
snowstorm hit six snowploughs that had not been told to leave the runway 
as the aircraft landed. About five had been shot down by enemy or terrorist 
attacks in Lebanon, Georgia and Afghanistan during the civil wars in those 
countries.

In 2001, a Tu-154 crashed into the Black Sea after being hit by a Ukrainian 
missile fired during exercises. One landed safely in a field after its cargo of
cigarettes caught fire but was completely burnt. Another ran out of fuel five 
miles short of the runway when the state airline of an almost bankrupt country 
decided to carry less fuel from its base, where the price was high. And Swiss air 
controllers accepted full responsibility for a mid-air collision between a Tu-154 
and a cargo plane in July 2002.

The Tu-154 is now no longer in production.

BBC Moscow correspondent Richard Galpin says Russian airlines are not 
interested in newer Tupolevs because they are not comparable with Western 
planes.

Aeroflot is now buying the vast majority of its aircraft from Boeing and Airbus. 


Obituary: Lech Kaczynski

Tu-154 likely not to blame for crash: expert


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## The Bread Guy (10 Apr 2010)

Message from Her Excellency the Right Honourable Michaëlle Jean, Governor General of Canada, on the death of President Lech Kaczynski

OTTAWA – It was with shock and deep sadness that my husband, Jean-Daniel Lafond, and I learned of the tragic plane crash that claimed the life of President Lech Kaczynski and all passengers and crew in Smolensk, Russia.

A brave champion of freedom and patriotic pride, as well as a pioneer of the Solidarity movement, President Kaczynski had devoted all of his energy to serving his people. His election as president of the Republic of Poland in 2005 had led him, together with his twin brother, former Prime Minister Jaroslav Kaczynski, to embark on comprehensive reforms to improve his country’s institutions.

On behalf of all Canadians, we wish to extend our sincere condolences to the families and friends of the deceased. Our thoughts are with Canada’s Polish community, which is in shock and which we know had great affection and admiration for President Kaczynski.

Michaëlle Jean

-30-


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## ark (10 Apr 2010)

Kaczynski was the guy who wanted to fly over Georgia during the last conflict with Russia. He was crammed in one helo with other top Eastern Europe leaders but the pilot refused stating high risk with all the High Value cargo on board. Once they landed, Kaczynski vowed to press charges against the pilot for refusing to follow his order. Anyone knows what happened to that pilot?


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## leroi (10 Apr 2010)

Kaczynski is being honoured posthumously as a _National Hero of Georgia_:

Saakashvili: ‘Kaczynski Played Amazing Role in Fight for Georgia’s Freedom’



> The Georgian President’s administration announced that Kaczynski was posthumously honored with an award of National Hero of Georgia for “showing heroism in defending Georgia’s interests” internationally. The statement also notes about Kaczynski’s role during the August, 2008, when he, along with presidents of Ukraine and Lithuania, as well as PMs from Latvia and Estonia arrived  in Tbilisi in show of support.


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## Marauder (10 Apr 2010)

First of all, RIP to those lost, and condolences to their loved ones, the Polish nation, and the Polish diaspora.

A few thoughts.



> No conspiracy here.





> Foreign Ministry spokesman, Piotr Paszkowski, said there were 89 people on the passenger list *but one person had not shown up.*



I'm gonna bet that this person, regardless of what happened, is going to have a very loooong week ahead of them with a lot of very 'interested' people.

Also, makes a very compelling case for cross loading and never forgetting line of succession when planning VIP travel.


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## gt102 (10 Apr 2010)

> *President of Poland Killed in Plane Crash in Russia*
> 
> _This article was reported by Nicholas Kulish, Ellen Barry and Michal Piotrowski, and written by Ms. Barry._
> 
> ...



This is absolutely tragic! My condolences go out to the country of Poland and all those effected.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (10 Apr 2010)

I've been away all day so I didn't get to post earlier but after I state what a tragedy this is for the whole country.

[rant] What I can't believe was that on the way home from work this morning on 680 news is that this story came on after 5 minutes of friggin' "Tiger Woods" kife.[rant]


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## Tetragrammaton (11 Apr 2010)

Just wanted to add this partial list of those who died on the flight to give some sense of the scope of the impact to the Polish senior government and military.

_A full list of those who died in the plane crash has not been released as of this time, but some of the names have been confirmed.

Lech Kaczynski - President of Poland

Maria Kaczynski - President's Wife

Pawel Wypych - Presidential aide

Mariusz Handzlik - Presidential aide

Ryszard Kaczorowski - Between 1989 and 1990 he served as the last Polish President in exile

Aleksander Szczyglo - Head of National Security Office

Andrzej Kremer - Deputy Foreign Minister

Jerzy Szmajdzinski - Former Defense Minister

Andrzej Przewoznik - in Charge of WWII Memorials

Gen. Franciszek Gagor - Head of Army Chief of Staff

Janusz Kurtyka - Head of the National Remembrance Institute

Slawomir Skrzypek - Head of National Bank of Poland

Janusz Kochanowski - Civil Rights Commissioner

Bishop Tadeusz Ploski - Army Chaplain

Przemyslaw Gosiewski - Lawmaker

Zbigniew Wassermann - Lawmaker

Grzegorz Dolniak - Lawmaker

General Tadeusz Buk - Head of Land Forces in Poland

Leszek Deptula - Member of Parliament

Katarzyna Doraczynska - Chancellery for the President

Janina Fetlinska - Senator

General Franciszek Gagor - Chief of Staff

Grazyna Gesicka - Member of Parliament

Przemyslaw Gosiewski - Member of Parliament

Izabela Jaruga-Nowacka - Member of Parliament

Sebastian Karpiniuk - Member of Parliament

Admiral Andrzej Karweta - Head of Polish Navy  

Mariusz Kazana - Member of Foreign Ministry

Janusz Kochanowski, Poland's Ombudsman

Stanislaw Jerzy Komorowski - Deputy Defence Minister

Tomasz Merta - Deputy Culture Minister

Aleksandra Natalli-Swiat - Member of Parliament

Piotr Nurowski - Head of the Polish Olympics Committee

Krzysztof Putra - Deputy Speaker of Parliament

Arkadiusz Rybicki - Member of Parliament

Wladyslaw Stasiak - Head of Kaczynski's Chancellery

Jolanta Szymanek-Deresz - Member of Parliament

Izabela Tomaszewska - Chancellery for the President

Anna Walentynowicz - Former Solidarity Activist

Wieslaw Woda - Member of Parliament

Edward Wojtas - Member of Parliament

Stanislaw Zajac - Senator_


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## TcDohl (11 Apr 2010)

Any thoughts on the fact that Vladimir Putin is heading the Russian side of the investigation? I'm sure that KGB training and FSB connections would come in handy -_-


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## tomahawk6 (11 Apr 2010)

I just dont see this as an act committed by the FSB, too clumsy. Unless there is evidence to the contrary this is going to be pilot error.


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## Retired AF Guy (11 Apr 2010)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I just dont see this as an act committed by the FSB, too clumsy. Unless there is evidence to the contrary this is going to be pilot error.



Initial reports indicate that the airport was closed due to fog, but the pilot tried to land anyway. Made three unsuccessful attempts which should have told the pilot it was time to go somewhere else. Made a fourth attempt and the rest is history.  According to  ARES  the aircraft was made in 1990 and had just recently undergone an overhaul. 



> Polish Tu-154M Crash Update: Black Boxes Recovered, Aircraft Recently Overhauled
> Posted by Robert Wall at 4/11/2010 10:38 AM CDT
> 
> More details are emerging about yesterday's crash of a Polish air force Tu-154Mthat killed the country's president and 95 others, including the extent to which Poland's military high command has been decimated as a result of the accident.
> ...


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## GAP (8 Jun 2010)

Russia makes arrests over Polish plane wreck theft
 Tuesday, 8 June 2010 11:05 UK
Article Link

Russian security forces at scene of Polish president's plane crash Russian security forces secured the scene of the plane crash

At least three Russian security staff have been arrested on suspicion of using the credit cards of a passenger killed when the Polish president's plane crashed in Russia in April.

About 6,000 Polish zloty (£2,000) was withdrawn on the cards, Polish investigators said on Monday.

Russia initially denied both the theft and arrests had taken place.

Russia's defence ministry now says it will pay compensation if the suspects' guilt is confirmed.

There are conflicting reports by Russian state media of the number of security personnel detained.
'Already confessed'

The Russian Prosecutor's Investigations Office is quoted as saying that a criminal case had been opened against four Russian soldiers for "theft carried out by a group with premeditation".

They have already confessed, a spokesman was quoted by Itar-Tass and Ekho Moskvy as saying. The sum stolen totals more than 60,000 roubles (£1,300), according to Russian media. 
More on link


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## The Bread Guy (29 Jul 2011)

Reviving necro thread with latest....


> Polish Defence Minister Bogdan Klich resigned after a damning report into last year's air crash in Russia that killed president Lech Kaczynski, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said Friday.
> 
> The report indicted the armed forces, saying the crew of Kaczynski's plane were ill-trained and ill-prepared.
> 
> ...


Source:  AFP, 29 Jul 11


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## SixFishSticks (30 Jul 2011)

I'm going to stir the pot a bit here.

and to make this clear i don't not support this idea and i don't not wish to offend anyone. This is not my point of view.

but hypothetically what is it was a planned attack. i found an interesting video and if you guys wish you and watch it go ahead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEx7HL4H5yk

P.S. Remember i just stumbled along this video don't destroy me for posting it


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## Flanker (6 Aug 2011)

SixFishSticks said:
			
		

> I'm going to stir the pot a bit here.



It is not conspiracy.
It is much more primitive than that ... just plain ignorance, profanity and negligence by Polish pilots coupled with all this stress and rush athmosphere created by Polish government officials including the president himself.

For all interested here is the investigation report.
It explains very clear the maddness that was happening aboard.

http://www.mak.ru/english/info/tu-154m_101.html


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