# Thunderflash



## marmaloon (24 Jan 2009)

Just an innocent question here, did they use flash powder or blank powder?  ???


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## kkwd (24 Jan 2009)

Here you go, fill your boots.
 Lots of info


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## marmaloon (25 Jan 2009)

Thanks Kkwd, I'm glad I joined the forum.


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## kkwd (25 Jan 2009)

You can find just about anything you want if you use Google. It took me about 10 seconds to find that link, I never heard of it before that time.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jan 2009)

And for some reason I don't think it should be out in the public domain....


And here is the reason, CF Weapons Pams?


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## kkwd (25 Jan 2009)

It's very old, from 1976. A few years ago you could get the entire library of CF Pubs online straight from the source.


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jan 2009)

kkwd said:
			
		

> It's very old, from 1976. A few years ago you could get the entire library of CF Pubs online straight from the source.



But someone has gone and used the updated CFP number for it.....


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## kkwd (25 Jan 2009)

Ok. I fixed the link, now they can find the info themselves.


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## ammocat (25 Jan 2009)

Just curious, what brought up the original question??


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## marmaloon (25 Jan 2009)

ammocat said:
			
		

> Just curious, what brought up the original question??



Curiousity, is that permitted?  ???


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## ammocat (25 Jan 2009)

Sure curiousity is permitted. Thats why I was curious what brought up the question. Typically no one thinks about simulators (Thunderflash, Arty Sim) until there has been some sort of incident. If you searched on Google you probably found B-GL-385 Grenades and Pyros from 1976, however it was amended in 1991.

If you have DWAN access and can find the epub library there is an ammo version of the pub. By searching the epub library for C-74-370 you will find it, but it doesn't have any more information than the B-GL.

Not a big fan of the thunderflash, it is a poor representation of the item it is suppose to simulate.


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## geo (25 Jan 2009)

... glorified firecracker


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## 1feral1 (25 Jan 2009)

marmaloon said:
			
		

> Just an innocent question here, did they use flash powder or blank powder?  ???



Blank powder?

OWDU


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jan 2009)

ammocat said:
			
		

> Sure curiousity is permitted. Thats why I was curious what brought up the question. Typically no one thinks about simulators (Thunderflash, Arty Sim) until there has been some sort of incident. If you searched on Google you probably found B-GL-385 Grenades and Pyros from 1976, however it was amended in *1991*.
> 
> If you have DWAN access and can find the epub library there is an ammo version of the pub. By searching the epub library for C-74-370 you will find it, but it doesn't have any more information than the B-GL.
> 
> Not a big fan of the thunderflash, it is a poor representation of the item it is suppose to simulate.



Mine has 2004 written on it.....



Bat Sim/BERFS kit does a much better job

 >


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## geo (25 Jan 2009)

Ha... C4 does a better job anytime
It would be memorable - to say the very least


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## Nfld Sapper (25 Jan 2009)

yup especially when you have to get rid of a whole roll of det cord....


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## kkwd (25 Jan 2009)

The T flash does the job cheaply and safely for Pte Numpty and his trench mates. After all it is just a simulation of having thrown a grenade, not the actual effects of one. If you want realistic explosions and whizzing shrapnel, bring in the sappers!!!  ;D


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## marmaloon (25 Jan 2009)

I suppose I should introduce myself, I'm from Dartmouth NS, I served for a very short time in 3RCR and 1RCR a long time ago, I was never an outstanding soldier but I managed to make it through my modest svc (4 short years -  so yes, fucking YTEP, I didn't know the dangers of signing up under that program lol!  ) with an honourable discharge, I didn't have to go into harms way for anything, which I am neither proud of or ashamed of, I respect the guys who serve for 20+ years (like dad), *4 years in garrison is sfa let'sface it*,  the long serving members are the ones who deserve recognition, I every now and then think of re-enlisting, but think better of it as I probably would not make a good svc man anymore, maybe if they wanted some comic relief  . To get back on track, once I cut up a Thunderflash to see what it was like inside once, I seem to recall the business end of it was maybe a 1/2 " X 2" plastic container that had the goody inside and the fuze of course, seemed to be some sort of grey powder if I remember correctly.


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## 1feral1 (25 Jan 2009)

marmaloon said:
			
		

> *4 years in garrison is sfa let'sface it



Never sell yourself short Tony, you served, did your time, and thats puts you in the same catagory as any one of us. I'd buy you a cold beer at any Cdn Legion or Aussie RSL anytime. Go here www.bribiersl.com.au, this is my local watering hole  ;D


Regards,

Wes


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## DocBacon (26 Jan 2009)

Hey, that's mighty good of you, Wes.

That offer good for all?

Cheers,

Doc


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## 1feral1 (27 Jan 2009)

Of course  :cheers:

Wes


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## XMP (31 Jan 2009)

The "goody" as you call it, is a metal based flash powder. It's not a particularly good idea to cut into any ordnance to see what's inside.


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## AmmoTech90 (31 Jan 2009)

XMP said:
			
		

> The "goody" as you call it, is a metal based flash powder.



Not in a t-flash it's not.



> It's not a particularly good idea to cut into any ordnance to see what's inside.



Correct


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## marmaloon (31 Jan 2009)

XMP said:
			
		

> The "goody" as you call it, is a metal based flash powder. It's not a particularly good idea to cut into any ordnance to see what's inside.



yes, I know I was quite a bit younger at the time and curiousity got the better of me. . .


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## XMP (1 Feb 2009)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Not in a t-flash it's not.



Well it's been many years, but things change I guess. It used to be Comp. SR 133 as I recall, which has over 50% of a powdered metal.
No specifics.


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## acen (2 Feb 2009)

FWIW a section mate of mine had an issue with one of the newer T-flashes, went off in the cargo pocket of his pants while doing section attacks, unprepped and all. Incident report filed and all t-flashes were seized from the rest of our company. Needless to say, he was happy he didnt have it in his pants pocket or shoved in a mag pouch like others. I will leave it up to your imagination what would have happened, but his cargo pocket had a few ventholes after it went off.


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## geo (2 Feb 2009)

I've seen a number of individuals suffer Thunderflashes going off in their cargo pockets.
In all instances, they had "prepared" their thunderflashes by removing the tape but keeping the end cap in place.

Unfortunately, running around in the field, the cap falls off & the matchhead rubbs against the striker surface on another (or same) end cap..... bang!!!  No serious injury - but users had not followed proper safety priocedures.

At least it wasn't a groundburst simulator ....


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Feb 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> I've seen a number of individuals suffer Thunderflashes going off in their cargo pockets.
> In all instances, they had "prepared" their thunderflashes by removing the tape but keeping the end cap in place.
> 
> Unfortunately, running around in the field, the cap falls off & the matchhead rubbs against the striker surface on another (or same) end cap..... bang!!!  No serious injury - but users had not followed proper safety priocedures.
> ...



Yeah otherwise there would a good chunck of said person missing.


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Feb 2009)

acen said:
			
		

> FWIW a section mate of mine had an issue with one of the newer T-flashes, went off in the cargo pocket of his pants while doing section attacks, unprepped and all. Incident report filed and all t-flashes were seized from the rest of our company. Needless to say, he was happy he didnt have it in his pants pocket or shoved in a mag pouch like others. I will leave it up to your imagination what would have happened, but his cargo pocket had a few ventholes after it went off.





			
				geo said:
			
		

> I've seen a number of individuals suffer Thunderflashes going off in their cargo pockets.
> In all instances, they had "prepared" their thunderflashes by removing the tape but keeping the end cap in place.
> 
> Unfortunately, running around in the field, the cap falls off & the matchhead rubbs against the striker surface on another (or same) end cap..... bang!!!  No serious injury - but users had not followed proper safety priocedures.
> ...



Based on what geo has said, seems someone didn't follow the proper saftey precautions.


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## AmmoTech90 (2 Feb 2009)

I was going to say, were his trousers on fire right before it functioned?  It isn't going to function unless the cap comes off and it is ignited.  He may not have noticed the cap of come off, but a T-flash isn't going to function because you ran quickly with it.


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## acen (2 Feb 2009)

I know it doesnt sound right, but the individual swears that the tape was left on, FWIW, i trust the guy. That being said, who knows, but it did make for an interesting moment to say the least. Nobody was hurt, and thats what mattered in this occasion, and consequentially we all pay a little bit more attention to the T-flashes and other pyro when issued. Now if only we had a proper place to put them besides our cargo pockets or slipped in the daisy chains like 9bangers.


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Feb 2009)

Where do you think we carried them before the Tac-Vest.


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## Kat Stevens (2 Feb 2009)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> I was going to say, were his trousers on fire right before it functioned?  It isn't going to function unless the cap comes off and it is ignited.  He may not have noticed the cap of come off, but a T-flash isn't going to function because you ran quickly with it.



Unless the pants were corduroy, the friction from running in that stuff could melt titanium.... 8)


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## 1feral1 (2 Feb 2009)

acen said:
			
		

> I know it doesnt sound right, but the individual swears that the tape was left on, FWIW, i trust the guy.



As quoted by our resident  ;D 'ATO' ;D these things don't go off by themselves. The tape had to be removed (obviously for 'time saving' or similar 'cool' reason), the cap then came off while in transit, then both cap and body happily bouncing around until some unlucky friction then ignited the device in his pocket.

He is lucky his cargo pocket was the only casualty. 

Regards,

Wes


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## AmmoTech90 (2 Feb 2009)

Stuff happens...
On my very first ex (BMQ) I witnessed a fairly major accident.  Our section was in reserve and the Pl WO called for a paraflare from our section commander, and then cancelled.  By the time he canceled it, the sect comd had removed both endcaps and tossed them out the trench, in the night, in the weeds...oh well, wrap the cord around the body and place it on the lip of the trench.  Cue us doing a clearing patrol an hour later, he hops out, grabs the flare and stuffs it in his cargo pocket.  We're going up a trail, contact he has to change mags on his SMG...this is when the trouble starts.
He normally carried an FN and didn't have SMG pouches so guess where he put the SMG mags?
Same pocket as the flare.
Pulls out a mag and fires the flare at the same time, whoosh, bang as it launches and hits the top of nearby tree.
Pte AT90 is further down the trail thinking, "wow, that's some neat stuff...rockets and everything."  Until the section comd comes hopping down the trail holding one leg going "f**, f**, f**" and falls down in front of me.  He spent the night at the hosp and the rest of the ex in his sleeping bag recovering from severe burns on his leg.

Just goes to show, bad kit can cause accidents.  Was it his fault, only partially in my mind.  The bigger problem is he was probably not the only person who was at risk because of poor kit or lack of proper kit.

Fruit goes off.
Explosives function.  ;D


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## geo (2 Feb 2009)

bad kit ???  NO!!!  The flare operated as advertized - The section commander didn't

If you take off the end caps, you hang onto em until you fire off the flare.  If you don't fire the flare, you replace the endcaps OR you set the darned thing asside - either unitl you recover the endcaps OR until Endex when the darned thing can be safely disposed of.

The accident was preventable
The section commander was at fault and blame should go his way...


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## AmmoTech90 (2 Feb 2009)

Yes there was an error of drill.

However, had the section commander had proper magazine pouches the accident wouldn't have happened.

There can be more than one reason for an accident.


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## Teeps74 (2 Feb 2009)

End caps on a para flare?

I was thinking earlier that I was getting old...

Clearly not that old.

SMG? What the heck is that? Is it like an LMG?












 ;D


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## kkwd (2 Feb 2009)

SMG - small metal gun?


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Feb 2009)

The Sterling submachine gun is a British submachine gun which was in service with the British Army from 1953 until 1988 when it was phased out with the introduction of the L85A1.

A Canadian version was also manufactured under licence, called the Submachine Gun 9 mm C1 made by Canadian Arsenals Limited. It replaced the later versions of the Sten submachine gun from 1953 onwards


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## kkwd (2 Feb 2009)

Well pull my lips off, I think that would be fun.


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Feb 2009)

Before my time, but they didn't call it the room clearer for nothing.

 ;D


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## kkwd (2 Feb 2009)

But it looks like if you get some sand in it the action might make a screeeech sound as it moved forward.  ;D


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## Nfld Sapper (2 Feb 2009)

I will defer that question to the more seasoned members of the site.


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## 1feral1 (2 Feb 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> The Sterling submachine gun is a British submachine gun which was in service with the British Army from 1953 until 1988 when it was phased out with the introduction of the L85A1.
> 
> A Canadian version was also manufactured under licence, called the Submachine Gun 9 mm C1 made by Canadian Arsenals Limited. It replaced the later versions of the Sten submachine gun from 1953 onwards



CAL did not start making them until 1959, production ceased in, I think 1966, not 68 like the 8L's. Serials began with 0S1234, and changed a letter after every 10,000 guns. 1S1234, 2S1234 etc.

Hummmm, SMG, 9mm, C1 0S1884 comes to mind right now, ha! Funky clip on sling and fun green plastic cleaning kit with pull thru, jags, cleaning patches, and a built in olier which always leaked into ones pocket or webbing. 

The Cdn SMG stood out by itself, a hybrid version of it's UK cousin. The gun differed in many ways, including its own design for a trigger group (internally and externally), a new trigger guard (arctic adaptation), a one piece bolt (UK gun was two), the use of some C1 rifle parts (yes believe it or naught), and used the C1 bayonet, as the UK gun used the No5 JC bayonet which would not fit on the L1A1 SLR. The SMG's folding butt assembly was also machined differenly than its UK counterpart.

Our Cdn mags were 10 and 30rd capacities, and I am sure many on here can remember the OD Star Wars holsters w/velcro too. The 34rd mags did appear near the end of her service Force wide. These were UK made mags, and so marked. I don't know when the old family of weapons were finally removed from official service, but Saskatchewan lost the C1, C2 and C1 SMG to the C7/C9 in the fall of 1990. The 1982 pattern webbing had a mag pouch developed for the SMG also, but the 1964 Pattern had nothing. I am sure I rocked a few memories. Somehow, some way, some C1 SMGs appeared in Ziare, coming out of the closet in 1985, and ending up in the UK before making their way back into Canada. Some nostelgia there.

Ah, those old paraflares. When I left in 1995, they had evolved somewhat with no more strings to pull, or top end caps etc. To this day, the most superior flare I have seen, and better than our's by far.

Regards,

OWDU


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## Nfld Sapper (3 Feb 2009)

This one look right Wes?


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## 1feral1 (3 Feb 2009)

The front sight gives it away  ;D


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## Nfld Sapper (3 Feb 2009)

Like I said Wes before my time.....


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## AmmoTech90 (3 Feb 2009)

Last time I fired a SMG was at CFAD Dundurn, SK, 1991.  I believe that bolt going forward had more impact than the recoil...

A nice weapon to fire but very "pointy".  In new hands you could have the muzzle going everywhere.


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## ammocat (3 Feb 2009)

None of those left in Dundurn now. Interestingly enough the new QL-3 AT course did their tour of the wpn tech school today and the SMG was one of the items out for display and everyone got a chance to check it out. Not as popular as the MP-5SD though.


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## geo (3 Feb 2009)

The SMG was a "fun" weapon - lousy safety though.... in 1970 - fella ended up shooting himself when he jumped out of the box of a 3/4 ton SMP.  The bold went back & forward.... bang & he was dead.

However, going back to the paraflare, the new one has the twisty handle to fire... a better Idea - less chance of having string problems - remember one fella who lost / broke the string on his paraflare.  He decided that he could fire it with the use of a pair of gloves & pliers... it went off....


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## 1feral1 (3 Feb 2009)

geo said:
			
		

> The SMG was a "fun" weapon - lousy safety though.... in 1970 - fella ended up shooting himself when he jumped out of the box of a 3/4 ton SMP.  The bold went back & forward.... bang & he was dead.


His action was closed with a loaded mag. The change lever/selector was was either at R or A (should have been at S) at the time, as when at S with the bolt forward the bolt stays locked (will not move), as a safety feature to prevent a UD. When he jumped out of the vehicle, the inertia of impact was enough to cause the action to go back far enough to pick up a rd (but not back far enough to lock the action into the cocked position), and discharge it. Not to speak ill of the dead, but his death was preventable, and in his own hands.

When the C1 SMG fires, there is an armourer's term called 'pre-ignition', which means the cartridge is fired by the fixed firing pin as the bolt moves forward after the trigger is squeezed, even (but just) before the caseing is fully seated in the chamber.

The C1 SMG, for an open bolt gun was well designed, and in the hands of a well trained soldier was safe and effective. The UK silenced version, the L34A1 was in the Aussie system less than 10 yrs ago.

Cheers,

Wes


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## geo (3 Feb 2009)

Wes,
The incident in question happened just at the time I was taking my basic.....
Obviously, a lot of additional care was given to instruction with such a fresh example... I never had an issue with it - but others swear the gun would go off - safety and all.  Never happened to me - but obviously the weapon musta been defective if it went off on them


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## PanaEng (3 Feb 2009)

I was excited when first told that I was going to carry a SMG until I realized the radio came with it  ???
As I recall, it was pretty reliable - it could be covered in crap and it would still fire. It was great for the combat divers as the water would drain from the barrel quickly and the rest of it was not affected by it.
What do the divers use these days?

Anyway, back on topic...
I can imagine the cap on the TF getting damp and, with the constant up-and-down and slamming in the ground when doing a section attack, the tape loosening up and the cap breaking off - I remember some pretty mangled TF after traversing the Mattawa plain for the 6th time doing SA during CLC.

cheers,
Frank


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## Nfld Sapper (3 Feb 2009)

They use C8's IIRC


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