# seeking advice regarding potential career



## thomas.h (29 Oct 2011)

Hey guys, 
I stumbled across this site while looking for information on a career in the military. I hope to soon become an Officer Cadet attending RMC, and have spent time reading through this forum. I believe that i possess various characteristics and abilities that an officer should have. I also feel that my academic achievement (consistent mid 80's) balanced with my leadership activities within my high school (founding member of a growing anti-bullying group, etc.) will be something that would be appealing to the forces. Regardless of how hard i try, or confident i feel, i realize that it is extremely competitive and that I can not depend upon acceptance into ROTP. Failing acceptance, I plan to postpone my post secondary education and apply to a NCM position. As such, my questions are:

After serving as an NCM member, would acceptance into ROTP or another form of subsidized education plan (at some point i would like to attain a Bachelors in Science, majoring in physics. RMC is the goal, but attending another school is okay with me) become more likely? 

If such an option existed, would i have to leave the military, and then reapply through ROTP? Or could i apply to ROTP without the potential risk of being unable to reattain my position in the military?   

I am very open to any suggestions you may have, and any comments or shared experiences would be greatly appreciated.

-Thomas
PS. excuse me if a similar post has been made/answered.


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## GAP (29 Oct 2011)

Do a search for UTM...there's all kinds of information on the site for similar issues...


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## buck13 (29 Oct 2011)

First thing to learn: effective use of the search tool. It is your best friend. There is already a thread about ROTP and RCM going on right now. Most of your questions can be answered there so give it a read through. If you want more specific information, post your questions there. Link below.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/board,56.0.html


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## Michael OLeary (29 Oct 2011)

GAP said:
			
		

> Do a search for UTM...there's all kinds of information on the site for similar issues...



While the study of the Universal Transverse Mercator coordinate system will no doubt make for interesting reading, I believe that you meant to suggest UTPNCM.


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## GAP (29 Oct 2011)

but....but....the Universal Transverse Mercator coordinate system is soooooo interesting..............he MIGHT be interested................maybe.....


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## thomas.h (29 Oct 2011)

Mapping is a blast and all, but I looked into UTPNCM and it seemed to be the right idea for a plan B, but a requirement for application is that I have two completed university courses. 

*** Is there a university education plan that I can research, that allows me to apply as an NCM without any prior University education?***
 (other than ROTP) When I graduate high school, i will posses all the prerequisites for entry into a science program at university.

As of now my career plan is:

1. Apply for ROTP, attend RMC or another civilian university.

2. Failing acceptance to ROTP, postpone post secondary education, and apply as an NCM.

3. While serving as an NCM, reapply to appropriate subsidized education plan (for members of the CF with a High school Diploma seeking University education)

4. Failing acceptance into said program, continue career as NCM, save for university and explore options for direct entry as an officer.

I understand that this process could take years, and have accepted that the forces could potentially determine that I am not a suitable candidate to become an officer

I am going to see a recruiter very shortly, but the more information i have beforehand, the easier it will be for me to work out the specifics for, well, the rest of my life!

         Thank you for your replies!


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## thomas.h (29 Oct 2011)

also, I apologize if this is under the wrong topic, but my question did not seem to relate specifically to RMC or ROTP


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## Melbatoast (29 Oct 2011)

thomas.h said:
			
		

> Mapping is a blast and all, but I looked into UTPNCM and it seemed to be the right idea for a plan B, but a requirement for application is that I have two completed university courses.
> 
> *** Is there a university education plan that I can research, that allows me to apply as an NCM without any prior University education?***
> (other than ROTP) When I graduate high school, i will posses all the prerequisites for entry into a science program at university.



There sort of is, the CEOTP, but it is not the preferred route for either you or the CF - in a conversation with my BPSO, he told me the CF is trying to get rid of it completely.  You pledge to complete a full university degree on your own time before your period of service is up.  Needless to say, that is a tall order for a junior officer, and I daresay a hard science like physics would be basically impossible to complete that way.  Moreover, the most competitive candidates have some university done already.

The two university course requirement for UTP is very easy to knock off.  The CF offers the Officer Professional Military Education program, which is a requirement for junior officers - the general version consists of 6 courses, 4 of which are university credit at RMC (and also transfer to other schools in some cases).  However, you need not be an officer to do the program, so you can pursue the OPME program piecemeal on your own time.  You could get two of them done very quickly, and would likely have plenty of time to compete the whole program before you were eligible to apply for UTP.  There are also many other options for distance learning for university courses - you're looking at about 4 years of service before applying so there's lots of time to constructively apply yourself.

Also keep in mind that UTP is extremely competitive, perhaps even moreso than ROTP.  Like everything with the CF the stated requirements are the minimum, and you will be up against a lot of guys with a great deal of operational and leadership experience.  Many years and multiple applications are the norm.  It took me 3 tries, with 9 years of exceptional service and more than two _years_ worth of university completed.  It's not the most efficient route but it is still your best option for commissioning from NCM.


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## thomas.h (30 Oct 2011)

Thanks for the advice and insight!

I have read on an older thread that you can be a reservist and still apply for ROTP, would this be a better option then pursuing UTPNCM?
It was recommended that one become a reservist and continue to apply to ROTP until a spot opened up. Would This be a little easier for me versus the NCM > UTPNCM route?


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## aesop081 (30 Oct 2011)

You're looking for an easy route.......don't. Nothing we do is easy. Ever.


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## thomas.h (30 Oct 2011)

hehe, i suppose easy is not the word i should have used! 
I need to have a solid plan that will eventually lead to me being an officer in the Canadian forces. The earlier I attain both a position as an officer and a University degree, the sooner the potential for what I feel I can become, or offer to the forces can be reached. Of course, that potential is to be determined by someone other then myself, but I am not one who likes to leave things to chance, especially when it involves such a large commitment. Any information i know now will enable me to make much more informed decisions.

Besides, every bit of information that I can attain now that is relevant to my goals will aid me when I visit a recruiter to discuss my options for achieving my goals.


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## Melbatoast (1 Nov 2011)

Your dilemma is a version of the "do I join an occupation I really don't want just to get in" problem.  The solution to the problem is always _don't join to do something you couldn't see yourself doing for the duration of your contract._  If you want to be an officer, don't join as an NCM (except the reserves while you go to school on your own dime and time - that's not a bad idea).  Any in-service commissioning options require a number of years of stellar service as an NCM before you will be considered.  I see quite a few guys who have entered with your thought process and most of them develop a sense of entitlement which leads to poor performance as an NCM, and thus eliminating any chance to become an officer.

Basing my opinion on a sample size of one (me), I'd suspect that the successful folks would have been just as happy retiring as a senior NCM as they would an officer.  Well, almost.

I'm not a recruiter but I very much doubt one would endorse a career plan based on the small chance that you would be successful in one of the in-service commissioning plans.

I'm not saying it's impossible, as I have seen it done, but the chances of the plan failing are much higher than they are of being successful.  A lot of pieces have to fall into place at once for an early-as-possible UTPNCM selection.  My experience is more typical, as I've said.  There's no easy way.


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## thomas.h (3 Nov 2011)

Right on, thanks!
For me, I feel like i would be happy serving as an NCM for my career, but being an officer would make me more so. Both being an officer and NCM in the trades that interest me would make me proud, I would not lose my sense of privilege. I also have a basic understanding of how difficult it is to advance in the forces (higher pay and position is not my goal, but still must be considered), my grandfather served as a reservist for 35 years and retired a captain and I know it is even more difficult in the regular forces. I also know that promotion is more then a matter of time, but also based in merit and openings. A military career is something that i have wanted for a very long time, and I am incredibly determined to one day serve!
   
well what do you guys think of being a reservist while attending university and continually applying to ROTP? 
I feel like the military experience would offer benefits that are two-fold; i could experience the military lifestyle and gain experience, but this experience would help my acceptance into ROTP as well!

PS. I am, for the most part, interested in being a sapper


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## buck13 (3 Nov 2011)

Being a reservist during university is great. Helps pay for tuition, keeps you in shape, gives you a few weekends where you have to do something other than drink, and I've found both university staff (profs, TAs, etc) as well as my superiors at the regiment have been really helpful in terms of making them both good experiences and being reasonable when they overlap. I always pick the regiment when they overlap. GPA be damned.


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## frank1515 (4 Nov 2011)

buck13 said:
			
		

> I always pick the regiment when they overlap. GPA be damned.



I'm sure your CO would love to hear you say that...


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## buck13 (4 Nov 2011)

Haha, I like to think he would focus on the positive aspect of the comment.


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## Tank Troll (4 Nov 2011)

buck13 said:
			
		

> Being a reservist during university is great. Helps pay for tuition, keeps you in shape, gives you a few weekends where you have to do something other than drink, and I've found both university staff (profs, TAs, etc) as well as my superiors at the regiment have been really helpful in terms of making them both good experiences and being reasonable when they overlap. I always pick the regiment when they overlap. GPA be damned.



As the SSM (and a father of a high school teen and one in University) I tell my soldiers education comes first. Last thing I want is some angry Parant of one of my high school or university soldiers coming in and blaming/ yelling at me that "*little Johnny* is failing because he was off playing Army for the last three weekends and he didn't study for his midterms"  All so if you fail your university course you don't get your $2000.oo at the end of the year. 

*I changed the name to protect the guilty*


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