# Veterans Affairs says worker ‘inappropriately’ discussed medically assisted death with veteran



## Jarnhamar (17 Aug 2022)

Looks like VAC is taking a new approach to dealing with long wait times.

"Why don't you kill yourself."

Veterans Affairs says worker ‘inappropriately’ discussed medically assisted death with veteran​


> A Canadian Forces veteran seeking treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder and a traumatic brain injury was shocked when he was unexpectedly and casually offered medical assistance in dying by a Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) employee, sources tell Global News.


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## Furniture (17 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Looks like VAC is taking a new approach to dealing with long wait times.
> 
> "Why don't you kill yourself."
> 
> Veterans Affairs says worker ‘inappropriately’ discussed medically assisted death with veteran​


Why hasn't the Minister just stepped up and told VAC that offering assisted suicide is off the menu to be discussed? 

If somebody wants to go that route they can go through their Dr., not have a bureaucrat recommend it on the phone...


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## daftandbarmy (19 Aug 2022)

Holy crap....  I assume their staff have been encouraged to find ways to cut costs and reduce the workload pressure on VAC staff ...


Veterans Affairs says worker ‘inappropriately’ discussed medically assisted death with veteran​A Canadian Forces veteran seeking treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder and a traumatic brain injury was shocked when he was unexpectedly and casually offered medical assistance in dying by a Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) employee, sources tell Global News.  

Sources say a VAC service agent brought up medical assistance in dying, or MAID, unprompted in the conversation with the veteran. Global News is not identifying the veteran who was seeking treatment.

But multiple sources tell Global News the combat veteran never raised the issue, nor was he looking for MAID and was deeply disturbed by the suggestion. Multiple sources and VAC have told Global News that the discussion took place.

Sources close to the veteran say he and his family were disgusted by the conversation, and feel betrayed by the agency mandated to assist veterans. The sources said the veteran was seeking services to recover from injuries suffered in the line of duty, and had been experiencing positive improvements in his mental and physical health. They say the unprompted offer of MAID disrupted his progress and has been harmful to the veteran’s progress and his family’s wellbeing.

Global News has also learned of follow-up calls in which the agency apologized to the veteran but only after he lodged multiple complaints with VAC.

In a statement, Veterans Affairs confirmed the department is aware of what they called an incident between a veteran and VAC employee “where medical assistance in dying was discussed inappropriately.”

“VAC deeply regrets what transpired,” the statement reads, adding the agency is investigating the incident and that “appropriate administrative action will be taken.” VAC would not discuss the nature of the ongoing investigation or specifics of what consequences the employee might face, citing privacy concerns.









						Veterans Affairs says worker ‘inappropriately’ discussed medically assisted death with veteran - National | Globalnews.ca
					

The offer was made despite the combat veteran not requesting the procedure or even mentioning the issue to his case manager, multiple sources told Global News.




					globalnews.ca


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## ArmyRick (19 Aug 2022)

And what will VAC do to this employee? Probably nothing.


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## ArmyRick (19 Aug 2022)

Unless their is genuine political will to change VAC, nothing will happen or be changed.


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## Eye In The Sky (19 Aug 2022)

Speechless - there’s no words that come to me.


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## KevinB (19 Aug 2022)

Maybe the VAC worker should be volunteering for death… 

I suspect this wasn’t an in person meeting.


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## Kat Stevens (19 Aug 2022)

Imagine that headline: "My spouse committed suicide because VAC told them it was okay to want to die."


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## Edward Campbell (19 Aug 2022)

We, veterans, are just part of a more general trend in Canada. I don't like it very much, but caring for the physically and mentally disabled and for the elderly, who have, after all, lived long enough, is expensive, isn't it? And the health care system is in c crisis, isn't it? Maybe a little selective culling of the herd won't be so bad ...

... I wonder when it's my turn, I turned 80 a few weeks ago, I'm well past my allotted "three score years and ten." When will I become a Durban on society?


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## Remius (19 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> We, veterans, are just part of a more general trend in Canada. I don't like it very much, but caring for the physically and mentally disabled and for the elderly, who have, after all, lived long enough, is expensive, isn't it? And the health care system is in c crisis, isn't it? Maybe a little selective culling of the herd won't be so bad ...
> 
> ... I wonder when it's my turn, I turned 80 a few weeks ago, I'm well past my allotted "three score years and ten." When will I become a Durban on society?


I seem to recall a couple of anti vax types on this very site, having no issues with the pandemic culling the herd so they could still be able to go to garden centers without the hassle of wearing a mask…

The fact is that we have an ageing population that are living longer. Our lifespans are growing.  People living well into their 80s and 90s is becoming a norm and not an anomaly and it needs to be adressed.  I say this with personal experience with the LTC system and how broken it is.  

It is expensive and more importantly it is hard.  People should try and fix hard things instead of looking for the easy button. 


On the OPs post though:

I support assisted suicide for people that are suffering unbearably and can make that conscious decision. 

It should NEVER be a “treatment” option for mental health issues.  The whole point is to prevent people from committing suicide is it not?


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## SeaKingTacco (19 Aug 2022)

This eventuality was predicted by those opposed to MAID legislation when it was before Parliament.

The Liberals roundly denounced anyone who suggested that such a thing would be possible.

Yet, here we are…


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## The Bread Guy (19 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> ... we have an ageing population that are living longer. Our lifespans are growing.  People living well into their 80s and 90s is becoming a norm and not an anomaly and it needs to be adressed.  I say this with personal experience with the LTC system and how broken it is.
> 
> It is expensive and more importantly it is hard ...


I can remember not enough long-term care being available 30+ years ago, so this isn't something that has snuck up on us.  Public solutions ended up being limited because no government wanted to spend enough to get 'er done, and private sector solutions ended up either creating sub-standard spaces, or government actually not offering up enough money to make it worthwhile for business.


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## ModlrMike (19 Aug 2022)

No government has wanted to address the problem, because the solution exceeds their potential four year tenure, and nobody wants to leave something the next guys can claim as their success. In addition, there are jurisdictions where any private involvement in healthcare is seen as the work of the devil, and you get chronic inaction.

What people don't realize is that the youngest cohort of the baby boom still has 15 years to go until they reach 80. Add another seven years of life once they enter a PCH, and we're looking at over 20 years of increased demand.


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## Halifax Tar (19 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> We, veterans, are just part of a more general trend in Canada. I don't like it very much, but caring for the physically and mentally disabled and for the elderly, who have, after all, lived long enough, is expensive, isn't it? And the health care system is in c crisis, isn't it? Maybe a little selective culling of the herd won't be so bad ...
> 
> ... I wonder when it's my turn, I turned 80 a few weeks ago, I'm well past my allotted "three score years and ten." When will I become a Durban on society?



I think you're being a bit disingenuous.  I haven't seen any calls for shipping the elderly off to the ice flows.  

I also see no issue with MAID, and I have an uncle who did so at the end of his battle with Lou Gehrig's disease.  But it needs to be a solution the patient desires, not the institution. 

The irony for me WRT our elderly complaining about our health care system is that its you folks who were the ones who had the ability to set us up for success now and you didn't.  So here we are.


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## Edward Campbell (19 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think you're being a bit disingenuous.  I haven't seen any calls for shipping the elderly off to the ice flows.
> 
> I also see no issue with MAID, and I have an uncle who did so at the end of his battle with Lou Gehrig's disease.  But it needs to be a solution the patient desires, not the institution.
> 
> The irony for me WRT our elderly complaining about our health care system is that its you folks who were the ones who had the ability to set us up for success now and you didn't.  So here we are.


Fair!

Especially fair that it was my generation that worshipped at the alter of Pierre Trudeau and thought that the Canada Health Act was, in some, in any way, a useful bit of policy.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> ... I also see no issue with MAID, and I have an uncle who did so at the end of his battle with Lou Gehrig's disease.  But it needs to be a solution the patient desires, *not the institution* ...


QFTT


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## Remius (19 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think you're being a bit disingenuous.  I haven't seen any calls for shipping the elderly off to the ice flows.
> 
> I also see no issue with MAID, and I have an uncle who did so at the end of his battle with Lou Gehrig's disease.  But it needs to be a solution the patient desires, not the institution.
> 
> The irony for me WRT our elderly complaining about our health care system is that its you folks who were the ones who had the ability to set us up for success now and you didn't.  So here we are.


Very valid points.

In that generation’s defence though what was the expected life expectancy vs now.  How many elderly lived and died in the family home with family vs LTCs or assisted living.   

But it’s hard to argue against the point you brought up.


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## daftandbarmy (19 Aug 2022)

Not sure who this guy is, but he provides a nice summary of the creepiness of this whole incident:

Canadian Veteran suffering PTSD and a brain injury was casually offered medical assistance in dying (MAID) as a treatment by Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC)


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## Halifax Tar (19 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> Very valid points.
> 
> In that generation’s defence though what was the expected life expectancy vs now.  How many elderly lived and died in the family home with family vs LTCs or assisted living.
> 
> But it’s hard to argue against the point you brought up.



They knew their generational population was huge, and they knew life expectancy was rising steadily.  Fail to plan, plan to fail.  

I have a niece who is going into mortuary services.  Smart girl.  Big business for the next 20 - 30 years.


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## Remius (19 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> They knew their generational population was huge, and they knew life expectancy was rising steadily.  Fail to plan, plan to fail.
> 
> I have a niece who is going into mortuary services.  Smart girl.  Big business for the next 20 - 30 years.


Oh for sure.  I agree with your premise.

But my parents never had to worry about LTC for their parents.  The men died young in their 50s mostly. The women in their 80s but always had family looking after them. 

My (our) generation is looking at now dealing with a broken system and doesn’t have the same family support network that existed back then. 

There are creative ways to help though and I hope they get looked into.  Tax credits, leave options and training for family members etc etc.  Some of it would be easy to implement.


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## Halifax Tar (19 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> Oh for sure.  I agree with your premise.
> 
> But my parents never had to worry about LTC for their parents.  The men died young in their 50s mostly. The women in their 80s but always had family looking after them.
> 
> ...



Why do the elderly have to go into an LTC ?  Why aren't people taking their parents in ?  







						Life expectancy, 1920–1922 to 2009–2011
					






					www150.statcan.gc.ca
				




Life expectancy for men hasn't been 50 since sometime before 1920.

I am not sure we can fix the system.  We might be best to go to a hybrid public/private model or weather the storm until Boomers impact is no more. 

As for VAC advising a PTSD afflicted VET to think about MAID, that individual should be fired; and the organization investigated to ensure this isn't pervasive throughout.  But I don't think you can blame the government for this.


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## OldSolduer (19 Aug 2022)

MAID is a real thing and I know you are all aware. 

Whoever suggested this to the veteran is out of their arcs of fire. That decision is up to family with the input of doctors and I’m sure lawyers as well.


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## rmc_wannabe (19 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> Oh for sure.  I agree with your premise.
> 
> But my parents never had to worry about LTC for their parents.  The men died young in their 50s mostly. The women in their 80s but always had family looking after them.
> 
> ...


I also think that the amount of Millennials/Gen X that have come to terms with "parental divorce" is also something that is putting a lot of the Boomers in an uneasy position. A lot of people in my generational cohort (myself included) have distanced or cut ties with our parents due to strained relationships. 

I would love to see the statistics on it, but anecdotally, my wife and I both, along iwth a large percentage of our friends moved far away from home to get away from our parents. We don't see our folks, talk to our folks, nor do we feel a responsibility to care for aging parents. We often have a hard time looking after our own lives, let alone caring for aging parents. Hell a lot of my peers are just waiting for their parents to die so they can inherit their parent's real estate holdings. 

Instead, you better believe governments will be pushed to foot the bill. Both by the boomers who are still alive to vote for it, as well as their kids.


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## Remius (19 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Why do the elderly have to go into an LTC ?  Why aren't people taking their parents in ?
> 
> View attachment 72596
> 
> ...


That’s why brought up some creative ways to enable taking their parents in.  Right now it’s next to impossible for some.   That’s why they can’t take their parents in.   We tried to have my father in law stay in home and it would have killed him and his wife without 24hour care in house.


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## Good2Golf (19 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Fair!
> 
> Especially fair that it was my generation that worshipped at the alter of Pierre Trudeau and thought that the Canada Health Act was, in some, in any way, a useful bit of policy.


That and the Indian Act, which survives to this day…sorry, was daydreaming off-topic about pulling down statues of PET and renaming any school, airport, community centre or sports centre with PET’s name on it….

Back on topic, one can’t help believing that where there is smoke, there may be fire.  I bet the VAC employee wasn’t ad-lib’ing the bit about MAID, if not at least misunderstanding the potential message from higher…probably why VAC isn’t throwing them under the bus…yet…


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## Remius (19 Aug 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> That and the Indian Act, which survives to this day…sorry, was daydreaming off-topic about pulling down statues of PET and renaming any school, airport, community centre or sports centre with PET’s name on it….
> 
> Back on topic, one can’t help believing that where there is smoke, there may be fire.  I bet the VAC employee wasn’t ad-lib’ing the bit about MAID, if not at least misunderstanding the potential message from higher…probably why VAC isn’t throwing them under the bus…yet…




You’d be surprised (or not) what untrained inexperiences do agents of the government will say and do to Joe public who might not know enough about anything. 

When I worked in recruiting there were a few recruiters that needed remedial training or one way conversations based on their ad lib.


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## daftandbarmy (19 Aug 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> That and the Indian Act, which survives to this day…sorry, was daydreaming off-topic about pulling down statues of PET and renaming any school, airport, community centre or sports centre with PET’s name on it….
> 
> Back on topic, one can’t help believing that where there is smoke, there may be fire.  I bet the VAC employee wasn’t ad-lib’ing the bit about MAID, if not at least misunderstanding the potential message from higher…probably why VAC isn’t throwing them under the bus…yet…



And it's probably just not a (very wierd and distressing) thing being suggested by only one VAC employee. Apparently, the only reason we know about this case is because a veteran complained several times.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> ... In that generation’s defence though what was the expected life expectancy vs now.  How many elderly lived and died in the family home with family vs LTCs or assisted living ...


This is true only depending on how far back you go.  Thirty years ago, I was talking to people about why there were long waiting lists for LTC beds, and (as always, I stand to be corrected) I suspect life expectancy hasn't risen enough between then and now to make a difference.  What could be making a bigger difference (or another factor affecting the population) is a probably lower birth rate, leaving a larger ratio of folks needing extra help.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Why do the elderly have to go into an LTC ?  Why aren't people taking their parents in ?


My guess:  families scattered across hell's half acre (both across Canada and in many cases around the world).  

Also, a lack of culture of _generally_ living multi-generationally compared to other places in the world.


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## rmc_wannabe (19 Aug 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> My guess:  families scattered across hell's half acre (both across Canada and in many cases around the world).


Yep. Globalization has made us far less community oriented. People go where the money is, with relative ease comparatively to other generations.



The Bread Guy said:


> Also, a lack of culture of _generally_ living multi-generationally compared to other places in the world.


Also a lack of obligation/desire to live multigenerationally. 

 My parents were horribly abusive in the way they parented. I have no desire to see them help "raise" my kids in the manner they "raised" me; let alone have them live in proximity.  A lot of Millennials/Gen X are going through therapy for c-PTSD, and not just "my parents yelled at me...wahhhh." Those of us who are healing those wounds aren't exactly jumping for joy at inviting their abusers into their homes, just because they need a place to ride out their last few years.


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## The Bread Guy (19 Aug 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> ... I bet the VAC employee wasn’t ad-lib’ing the bit about MAID, if not at least misunderstanding the potential message from higher…probably why VAC isn’t throwing them under the bus…yet…


While VAC hasn't impressed me generally, I'm not as pessimistic that it's a "system" thing.  

Then again, a $5 ATIP request, properly worded, could always prove ... intriguing


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## Navy_Pete (19 Aug 2022)

Just wow...

I think MAID makes a lot of sense in certain cases, but should be a personall choice, and never suggested by someone outside the medical support team.  There is also some pretty strict limitations around eligibility for it to prevent cases specifically like this. Hopefully that employee gets fired.

If anyone is curious you can read about eligibility at the link below, but it actually specifically excluded mental illness on it's own as part of that.;

Medical assistance in dying - Canada.ca


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## PuckChaser (19 Aug 2022)

It should never be suggested by anyone. It should only be requested by the individual and never offered in an unsolicited manner.


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## mariomike (19 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> The fact is that we have an ageing population that are living longer. Our lifespans are growing.  People living well into their 80s and 90s is becoming a norm and not an anomaly and it needs to be adressed.



My mother is 90 and still enjoys her gardening etc. 

This was predicted back in 2009.









						Canada's looming acute-care crisis
					

T he health-care system is about to embrace the baby-boom generation and a recent symposium at Queen's University forecast that, at best, the results will be problematic. At worst, our system may implode.




					www.thestar.com


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## Humphrey Bogart (19 Aug 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I think you're being a bit disingenuous.  I haven't seen any calls for shipping the elderly off to the ice flows.
> 
> I also see no issue with MAID, and I have an uncle who did so at the end of his battle with Lou Gehrig's disease.  But it needs to be a solution the patient desires, not the institution.
> 
> The irony for me WRT our elderly complaining about our health care system is that its you folks who were the ones who had the ability to set us up for success now and you didn't.  So here we are.





Halifax Tar said:


> Why do the elderly have to go into an LTC ?  Why aren't people taking their parents in ?
> 
> View attachment 72596
> 
> ...


A great couple of posts.  IMO the thing people seem to be ignoring is that there is an element of personal responsibility in all of this.

It's not my responsibility to pay for your care when you get old, it's your responsibility and that of your estate.  

If you spent like a drunken sailor your entire life, didn't plan and didn't put any away for the inevitable day when you needed to pay for someone to wipe your rear, how is that all of a sudden my problem to fix?  

As for the VAC employee in question, we all know of people we have worked with who are absolute morons and probably shouldn't be filling that role.  I doubt anything will happen to the employee though, it's a Government job after all 😄.


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## Humphrey Bogart (19 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I also think that the amount of Millennials/Gen X that have come to terms with "parental divorce" is also something that is putting a lot of the Boomers in an uneasy position. A lot of people in my generational cohort (myself included) have distanced or cut ties with our parents due to strained relationships.
> 
> I would love to see the statistics on it, but anecdotally, my wife and I both, along iwth a large percentage of our friends moved far away from home to get away from our parents. We don't see our folks, talk to our folks, nor do we feel a responsibility to care for aging parents. We often have a hard time looking after our own lives, let alone caring for aging parents. Hell a lot of my peers are just waiting for their parents to die so they can inherit their parent's real estate holdings.
> 
> Instead, you better believe governments will be pushed to foot the bill. Both by the boomers who are still alive to vote for it, as well as their kids.


This post really spoke to me in many ways.

I left home at 18 years old as quickly as I could, joined the Military and haven't looked back. My parents and I don't have a strained relationship but this is because we don't really have much of a relationship to begin with.  

I contrast this with my sibling who was a "#### Up" that took the better part of a decade+ to stop sucking on the tit, so to speak.  They are intimately involved with their life and probably visit what feels seems like almost weekly.  Every achievement of theirs, no matter what it is, is celebrated.  

I could count on one hand the amount of times they've visited me in 18+ years and I can't remember the last time they actually took the time to ask me how I was?  My spouse and I were joking the other day that I could have "Cured Cancer" or "Solved World Hunger" and they probably wouldn't notice 🤣.  

They rolled their eyes when they found out I was leaving the CAF and moving on to attempt to see if I could hack it in the private sector and make some Real $$$$$.  

My mother was openly critical of my decision with her biggest gripes being "why are you going to live there?", "why are you giving up a pension?"  If I had a nickel for every time someone has told me I couldn't do something, well you know the rest. 😄

Needless to say our relationship is what it is but it's not my job to maintain it.


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## Remius (19 Aug 2022)

I lucked out.  I have breakfast once a week with my dad.  On top of the normal visits with my parents.  My son is very close to both sets of grandparents. 

They helped me through school, work and helped me immensely after my divorce and subsequent money trouble I found myself in.  They were there for every milestone and while I disappointed them by not finishing university they are proud of my military service and what I do now. 

My wife and I bought a house that we could convert to take a parent in if needed.  My parents were smart with their money and could afford probably some of the best in home care or LTC they can find.  But my door is open to them if that should ever happen. 

My in laws are not as well off but we’re also smart with their money. My father in law is in a decent LTC at 3600$ a month for care.  But it’s still an exercise in frustration for a variety of reasons. 

My wife’s siblings are useless leeches and yes they are likely waiting for an inheritance that will likely all be spent on LTC or in home care if we take her mother in when and if that should happen. 

Which brings me to that point that some people waiting to inherit from their parents might find there is not much left after all the care they may have to pay fir before they pass.


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## lenaitch (19 Aug 2022)

I'm not sure PET and the Indian Act has to do with anything, particularly since the Act has been around in one form or another since 1876, but anyway . . . 

A lot of demographic changes since the 1920s.  Canada was much more rural with much more of the population in multi-generational family farms.  Many Ontario rural municipalities still have specific zoning provisions for a lot to be severed off a farm for a 'retirement' residence.  Even if they didn't come off the land, there was much less mobility back then; many more people lived and died in the same area they were born in.  I'm a boomer and left home in my '20s and never looked back, and a lot of my generation did the same.

Two outliers were the war(s) and the Depression, with the Depression probably having a greater impact; at least with war, if you came back you likely came back home.

Life expectancy might have been in the '60s, but there is a greater chance they worked until the day before.  How many had pensions to do otherwise?  People didn't linger like they do today.  Medical science has made greater strides in improving the quantity of life than it has improving the quality of life.

Immigration has introduced cultural changes with some cultures more comfortable with multi-generational living, and a lot of newer urban housing reflects that.

I'm over 70 and the wife and I have been discussing moving closer to our daughter (2 1/2 hours) so she and her husband can help us as we slide into dotage.  A friend who has Parkinson's just did the same thing.  Both of us are fans of MAID.  We just had her dad pass at 101.  He really didn't want to hang around much past 90; he was pretty much deaf, blind and bed-ridden but really didn't fit the legislation; he was just old and increasingly frail.  She was his POA and it really wore her down.


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## Humphrey Bogart (19 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> I lucked out.  I have breakfast once a week with my dad.  On top of the normal visits with my parents.  My son is very close to both sets of grandparents.
> 
> They helped me through school, work and helped me immensely after my divorce and subsequent money trouble I found myself in.  They were there for every milestone and while I disappointed them by not finishing university they are proud of my military service and what I do now.
> 
> ...


My grand parents were both this way and tbh, I have always looked up to my two grand father's who both worked their butts off but had a lot to show for it.  

I have one grand parent left and he put himself in probably the top nursing home in Atlantic Canada because he could afford to.  They have a state of the art palliative care ward but you have to start in their retirement community to access it.  

This goes back to that whole part about personal responsibility though.  He is paying for that care with his hard earned money, not the State.  My other grand parents died in their own home.  They paid for full time care there right up to the moment they passed.


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## Colin Parkinson (20 Aug 2022)

Government does not care if you die, only how and when. About 7 years after retiring is perfect for them.


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## Remius (20 Aug 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> My grand parents were both this way and tbh, I have always looked up to my two grand father's who both worked their butts off but had a lot to show for it.
> 
> I have one grand parent left and he put himself in probably the top nursing home in Atlantic Canada because he could afford to.  They have a state of the art palliative care ward but you have to start in their retirement community to access it.
> 
> This goes back to that whole part about personal responsibility though.  He is paying for that care with his hard earned money, not the State.  My other grand parents died in their own home.  They paid for full time care there right up to the moment they passed.


Yeah, I’m not advocating the state pay for it. Unless it’s under exceptional circumstances.   But we need better mechanisms to enable it.  And way better oversight.  Private vs not for profit seem to be light years apart with not for profit being the better option.  

We give parental leave for when kids are born.  I’d like to see some sort of leave to take care of one’s parents.  I’ll be retired likely when my parents reach that point but for some they may still be working.  Tax credits for certain things and even training for people that choose to take care of them.  

Anyways, interesting discussion.


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## daftandbarmy (20 Aug 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Government does not care if you die, only how and when. About 7 years after retiring is perfect for them.



Go Science! 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/818904498437378048


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## Furniture (20 Aug 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I also think that the amount of Millennials/Gen X that have come to terms with "parental divorce" is also something that is putting a lot of the Boomers in an uneasy position. A lot of people in my generational cohort (myself included) have distanced or cut ties with our parents due to strained relationships.
> 
> I would love to see the statistics on it, but anecdotally, my wife and I both, along iwth a large percentage of our friends moved far away from home to get away from our parents. We don't see our folks, talk to our folks, nor do we feel a responsibility to care for aging parents. We often have a hard time looking after our own lives, let alone caring for aging parents. Hell a lot of my peers are just waiting for their parents to die so they can inherit their parent's real estate holdings.
> 
> Instead, you better believe governments will be pushed to foot the bill. Both by the boomers who are still alive to vote for it, as well as their kids.


Wow... 

I can't be the only one shocked, and concerned by this. If it really is common, we might as well spend all we can, and go out in a blaze of glory...


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## Eaglelord17 (20 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> We give parental leave for when kids are born.  I’d like to see some sort of leave to take care of one’s parents.  I’ll be retired likely when my parents reach that point but for some they may still be working.  Tax credits for certain things and even training for people that choose to take care of them.
> 
> Anyways, interesting discussion.


The issue with that type of leave is it is indefinite, vs parental leave which can be for a easily defined length of time. Your parents might live 20 more years after you start caring for them, its unreasonable to expect a employer to retain them that long and not have them work. 

A personal example my aunt ended up on leave from work when my grandmother had terminal cancer. That being said the time line was fairly defined at that point (measured in months not years).


Furniture said:


> Wow...
> 
> I can't be the only one shocked, and concerned by this. If it really is common, we might as well spend all we can, and go out in a blaze of glory...


I am of the opinion that every dollar you die with was a hour at work that you didn’t have to do. Obviously you don’t want to run out, but I hope to be able to manage it so I can have lived life to the fullest by the means I earned.


----------



## Remius (20 Aug 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> The issue with that type of leave is it is indefinite, vs parental leave which can be for a easily defined length of time. Your parents might live 20 more years after you start caring for them, its unreasonable to expect a employer to retain them that long and not have them work.
> 
> A personal example my aunt ended up on leave from work when my grandmother had terminal cancer. That being said the time line was fairly defined at that point (measured in months not years).
> 
> I am of the opinion that every dollar you die with was a hour at work that you didn’t have to do. Obviously you don’t want to run out, but I hope to be able to manage it so I can have lived life to the fullest by the means I earned.


Of course not.  But a year with an option to extend by something like we do with with parental now.  Or something similar.  There can be waiting lists for LTCs and in the case of good ones there can be longer wait times.   It would be more for that sort of thing until you can help get them sorted out, transitioned etc.


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Aug 2022)

Remius said:


> ... We give parental leave for when kids are born.  I’d like to see some sort of leave to take care of one’s parents.  I’ll be retired likely when my parents reach that point but for some they may still be working.  Tax credits for certain things and even training for people that choose to take care of them ...


In Italy, the government provides money directly to families to hire live in help if they can't take care of parents themselves.


----------



## Edward Campbell (20 Aug 2022)

I kept both my late Mother and my late wife "at home," using, first, my late Mother's (not small) savings and then those of my wife and I to pay for private duty nurses. When my late wife died (about 10 years ago) the *daily* cost of home care was running around $500.00+.

In both cases I _could_ have found "doing term care" that was more economical but there was always a severe shortage of facilities into which I would put either of them and they cost $5,000.00/month in the 2000s and 2010s. The available places were, in my opinion, warehouses, and so I spent more to do the job - my responsibility to my family (I don't give a fiddler's f_ck about society) - properly.

Luckily, my Mother spent only a very few of he last days in hospital (critical care - ruptured aneurysm) and then a few more (less than 5) in a wonderful hospice. My wife was in her own bed until less than 60 hours before she died.

I agree that care for our families is, ultimately, a family responsibility. But too many families cannot afford anything like an adequate standard of care for their loved ones, or even for their not-so-loved ones. The solution is NOT to conscript home care workers.

I'm not sure what the right solution is BUT I am 100% certain that Canada's health care system, especially the part dealing with chronic care, is FUBAR.


----------



## KevinB (20 Aug 2022)

When my wife and I had this house built - her mother was coming to live with it.  I sacrificed a large vault to allow for the MIL to have a sitting room, (on top of her en-suite and basement walk out bedroom.) 

But I’m not totally Mr Endless Charity — as I wanted my kids to understand that it is their duty to take care of their parents at a certain point in time.  Also me being 13yrs older than my wife means she will probably outlive me - and I want to ensure the kids know what is expected.


----------



## Edward Campbell (20 Aug 2022)

KevinB said:


> When my wife and I had this house built - her mother was coming to live with it.  I sacrificed a large vault to allow for the MIL to have a sitting room, (on top of her en-suite and basement walk out bedroom.)
> 
> But I’m not totally Mr Endless Charity — as *I wanted my kids to understand that it is their duty to take care of their parents at a certain point in time. * Also me being 13yrs older than my wife means she will probably outlive me - and I want to ensure the kids know what is expected.


Bingo!


----------



## mariomike (20 Aug 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Government does not care if you die, only how and when. About 7 years after retiring is perfect for them.



It's a numbers game. I retired the day I maxed-out at 70%. That was over 13 years ago.
My mother is 22 years older than me, and still active. My father was still golfing, and travelling the world, until almost 80, so who knows?

At my pre-retirement _OMERS_ _seminar_, the instructor mentioned an attractive woman who had a fondness for old, as in very old, and very single  / widowed policemen. As her six ( 6 ) spouses died off, she accumulated survivors pensions ( 66 2/3% ) for each one of them!


----------



## The Bread Guy (20 Aug 2022)

KevinB said:


> ... I wanted my kids to understand that it is their duty to take care of their parents at a certain point in time ...


Good point - and that's something that's not all that North American an attitude these days, hence the pressure on the system.


----------



## mariomike (20 Aug 2022)

Used to be not uncommon to see hospital beds set up in living rooms. Even saw an iron lung in one parlour.

I think it was typical to even have the wake in the front parlour, back in the day.


----------



## kev994 (20 Aug 2022)

mariomike said:


> At my pre-retirement _OMERS_ _seminar_, the instructor mentioned an attractive woman who had a fondness for old, as in very old, and very single  / widowed policemen. As her six ( 6 ) spouses died off, she accumulated survivors pensions ( 66 2/3% ) for each one of them!


Pretty good ROI if you can get it


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Aug 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> Good point - and that's something that's not all that North American an attitude these days, hence the pressure on the system.


Definitely more Asian and European.  Everyone has a place on the spectrum of sense of duty to care…’À chacun son propre goût.’  Personally, I may fit in the ‘more duty/obligation/desire to care’ side of things, helping my MIL move to be closer to my wife and me, and a pending transition of my parents from independent living to some blend of assistance as my dad is affected progressively with dementia, but it’s not in a transactional sense of ‘I had a good childhood so I owe it to them,’ but rather a ‘they’re good people and deserve some compassion in their older years,’ so even though they have the means to fully self-care, that doesn’t mean I don’t feel as though I shouldn’t participate in helping them during the later phases of their lives.


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Aug 2022)

We are an aging population. Many of us have never taken welfare or EI. Where does family responsibility end and the system then takes over? 
Another point - at what cost? 
Medical science can keep a person alive for a very long time and it’s not always a good thing.

Third - I’m on a roll - the “system “ isn’t a system anymore. It’s an industry. It’s a money maker for all kinds of businesses.


----------



## PMedMoe (20 Aug 2022)

I think something that many have overlooked here is the medical care.  No everyone is equipped to look after an elderly parent who requires special care.  My mother was paralyzed on one side after a series of mini-strokes.  None of us could have looked after her properly.


----------



## Good2Golf (20 Aug 2022)

PMedMoe said:


> I think something that many have overlooked here is the medical care.  No everyone is equipped to look after an elderly parent who requires special care.  My mother was paralyzed on one side after a series of mini-strokes.  None of us could have looked after her properly.


It can escalate quickly, that’s for sure. Doing some ‘recce’ for potential spectrum of care for my Dad and the estimate is not insignificant.


----------



## brihard (20 Aug 2022)

Damn, I'd missed this conversation til now.

Very brief bit on the MAiD / VAC thing- several of you know my interest in mental health and that I did some minor work in that realm and with VAC a few years back. I have zero belief that this foulup in any reflected anything deliberate or even wilful on the part of the department. I think this was one worker who went rogue and needs to be very seriously sorted out. I'm not naive enough to think that they'll successfully fire a public servant for this, but this is a _major_ performance issue. 

That said- and now you get to indulge my law nerd side; I did a course that focused on the evolution of the law of MAiD just earlier this summer - MAiD is a process that isn't a quick an easy thing to commit to. Two physicians/nurse practitioners have to sign off on a request and must be confident as to the patient's competence and voluntariness. As of yet, MAiD is not available for purely psychiatric disorders; e.g., someone with treatment resistance depression whose suffering is unbearable and whose condition is irremediable. We may see that change next year, but at present there needs to be a grievous and irremediable physical health condition. Anyone potentially looking at MAiD will be considering opting in to a system that has quite a number of checks and balances. It is not a flawless system, but it's also not one where some VAC worker or social worker or whatnot will in any way be able to effect the administration of medically assisted death. IMHO, anyone in such a social services role needs to, as part of their standard of practice, NOT bring it up. That should be a conversation only with those medical practitioners (MDs, NPs)who are qualified to sign off on the process.


Elder care: Tough one; we see different values in different families and cultures. Some people will be brought up with an absolute filial duty to parents. We see a lot of that in Asian cultures as a cultural norm. Among European cultures it seems more hit or miss. I've been overall pretty lucky- some fractured family relationships earlier on, but I'm on good terms with my dad - 35 year CAF pension, so he's good - and excellent terms with my mom. She went through very hard times early in life and into adulthood; crashed hard with mental health issues when I was a young adult, doing much better now, but economically she and my stepdad are completely dependent on his provincial disability (she's mostly a caregiver), and he's got at best a year left with cancer. She rarely worked and won't have any meaningful CPP even when she hits 65. I'm trying to wrap my ahead around OAS/GIS survivor benefits once he passes, but her financial outlook, independently, is grim. If, hypothetically, she was truly 'on her own', she'd be in a really bad spot. As it is she has a good roof over her head in a safe neighbourhood and groceries to her door whenever she needs them because of her relationship with me and the economic success I've had. I've determined that I'll look after her, and my wife is very much on side (and largely responsible for us being able to provide that roof). 

But that's where our system is at. People are living longer, and many don't have strong pensions, assets, or savings that allow them security into old age. Those who don't are basically hoping that A) they have kids with the means to help them and B) their kids are willing to help them. Poor relationships mean many will not be able to depend on that.



PMedMoe said:


> I think something that many have overlooked here is the medical care.  No everyone is equipped to look after an elderly parent who requires special care.  My mother was paralyzed on one side after a series of mini-strokes.  None of us could have looked after her properly.



Yup, and then on top of it all, there's this. An elderly parent who is oriented, capable, and self-propelled is one thing. Anyone who's dependent on continuous care is going to be another matter entirely. Which, interestingly, brings us back to MAiD. Some of the research out of jurisdictions that have had it longer have found that this feeling of not contributing, and of being a burden on family is definitely correlated with higher MAiD access, particularly among women. There's hypothesis that this may correlate with expectations traditionally placed on women that they be the caregivers, not the care-consumers. More generally, MAiD may be accessible to those whose medical conditions are bad enough to qualify, but whose primary motivation may actually still be simply feeling useless, burdensome, or hopeless.

Some interesting data and breakdowns on MAiD in Canada from 2021 here. There were over 10,000 assisted deaths last year.









						More than 10,000 Canadians received a medically-assisted death in 2021: report
					

More Canadians are ending their lives with a medically-assisted death, says the third federal annual report on medical assistance in dying (MAID). Data shows that 10,064 people died in 2021 with medical aid, an increase of 32 per cent over 2020.



					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Colin Parkinson (20 Aug 2022)

mariomike said:


> It's a numbers game. I retired the day I maxed-out at 70%. That was over 13 years ago.
> My mother is 22 years older than me, and still active. My father was still golfing, and travelling the world, until almost 80, so who knows?
> 
> At my pre-retirement _OMERS_ _seminar_, the instructor mentioned an attractive woman who had a fondness for old, as in very old, and very single  / widowed policemen. As her six ( 6 ) spouses died off, she accumulated survivors pensions ( 66 2/3% ) for each one of them!


I bet she uses the funeral attended by his ex- police buddies to select her next mate.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (20 Aug 2022)

Furniture said:


> Wow...
> 
> I can't be the only one shocked, and concerned by this. If it really is common, we might as well spend all we can, and go out in a blaze of glory...


Not meant to be shocking or heartless. There is a history behind my reasoning that I won't really discuss in a public forum. 

In my experience, a lot of Bommers have already done what you describe. Early boomers are now realizing that their homes were over valued, their nest eggs (if they had any) didn't yield much because if the low low interest rates, and now they're reaping the benefits of fiscal conservatism in the public healthcare and LTCF arenas.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Aug 2022)

mariomike said:


> It's a numbers game. I retired the day I maxed-out at 70%. That was over 13 years ago.
> My mother is 22 years older than me, and still active. My father was still golfing, and travelling the world, until almost 80, so who knows?
> 
> At my pre-retirement _OMERS_ _seminar_, the instructor mentioned an attractive woman who had a fondness for old, as in very old, and very single  / widowed policemen. As her six ( 6 ) spouses died off, she accumulated survivors pensions ( 66 2/3% ) for each one of them!


Hence why now when you retire the 'survivor' can never be changed.....


----------



## mariomike (21 Aug 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Hence why now when you retire the 'survivor' can never be changed.....



Unless the "survivor" predeceases the member.....





						Supplemental Plan
					

The OMERS Supplemental Plan for Police, Firefighters and Paramedics offers optional benefits for members of the police sector, firefighters and paramedics. As an OMERS employer, you may offer a benefit to a specific class or classes of employees.




					www.omers.com


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## captloadie (22 Aug 2022)

While I do not think that the topic should not be one raised by VAC staff, it may be taking the issue to far by banning staff from speaking of it all. We all know what happens when an edict comes down, especially on the civilian side of the house. What happens when a veteran has questions about his benefits in the event they decide to go this route? Their doctor isn't going to have the answers.


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## Edward Campbell (22 Aug 2022)

David Parkins, drawing in today's Globe and Mail, gets the Long Term Care dilemma:


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## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> David Parkins, drawing in today's Globe and Mail, gets the Long Term Care dilemma:View attachment 72661


The worry with the Ontario issue is that while people wait for placement in their _preferred_ LTC facility, they may end up in a facility that has some space because it's generally _less_ preferred by folks - often (but I suspect not 100%) private sector with a poorer user track record.  We'll see how it all unfolds.


----------



## Good2Golf (22 Aug 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> The worry with the Ontario issue is that while people wait for placement in their _preferred_ LTC facility, they may end up in a facility that has some space because it's generally _less_ preferred by folks - often (but I suspect not 100%) private sector with a poorer user track record.  We'll see how it all unfolds.


As I look into things in greater detail, I’m finding a lack of minimum standard…seeing the AC fiasco shows how bad things can get even when a minimum service/capability is required/mandated.  Uugh.


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## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> As I look into things in greater detail, I’m finding a lack of minimum standard…seeing the AC fiasco shows how bad things can get even when a minimum service/capability is required/mandated.  Uugh.


And I think Ontario's LTC rules - such as they are - are better than some out there.


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## mariomike (22 Aug 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> The worry with the Ontario issue is that while people wait for placement in their _preferred_ LTC facility, they may end up in a facility that has some space because it's generally _less_ preferred by folks - often (but I suspect not 100%) private sector with a poorer user track record.  We'll see how it all unfolds.



From what I observed on many hurried calls into many LTC homes, or "facilities", over a few decades, municipal LTC homes were preferable. As they were partially funded by the municipality, they were part of the "not for profit" sector.

From what I have read, the number of seniors in Ontario is expected to double between 2016 and 2041.

In some smaller and more rural communities, the ratio of seniors will be higher.



> Rapid growth in the share and number of seniors will continue over the 2021–2031 period as the last cohorts of baby boomers turn age 65. After 2031, the growth in the number of seniors slows significantly.








						Ontario population projections
					

Learn about the 2021-2046 population projections for Ontario and its 49 census divisions.




					www.ontario.ca


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## The Bread Guy (22 Aug 2022)

mariomike said:


> From what I observed on many hurried calls into many LTC homes, or "facilities", over a few decades, municipal LTC homes were preferable ...


That's how it generally tends to work here, too - as was the case 20+ years ago when I was doing a recce for my own mom needing more care than she could get @ home (and that was when the province paid for a fair bit of home care compared to today).


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## Colin Parkinson (22 Aug 2022)

In BC the public facility is less preferred over private, my dad had saved a lot and the home he went into was very nice, but it was about $9,000 a month for a private room.


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## mariomike (22 Aug 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> That's how it generally tends to work here, too - as was the case 20+ years ago when I was doing a recce for my own mom needing more care than she could get @ home (and that was when the province paid for a fair bit of home care compared to today).



The Ontario Long-Term Care Covid-19 Commission noted the wait lists for municipal and non-profit homes are much longer than those for for-profit facilities.


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## kev994 (22 Aug 2022)

mariomike said:


> From what I have read, the number of seniors in Ontario is expected to double between 2016 and 2041.


There’s an obvious solution here, and it involves changing the definition of “senior”. There I go, Leading change.


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## OldSolduer (22 Aug 2022)

kev994 said:


> There’s an obvious solution here, and it involves changing the definition of “senior”. There I go, Leading change.


As long as I am not included in the re-definition. 

We - Canada - really does need to have a serious talk about health care in general. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

ALL the money spent on health care and all the talk hasn't solved anything and in fact is making it worse.


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## kev994 (22 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> As long as I am not included in the re-definition.
> 
> We - Canada - really does need to have a serious talk about health care in general. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
> 
> ALL the money spent on health care and all the talk hasn't solved anything and in fact is making it worse.


Don’t worry, there’s a summit. I bet they decide that the Feds need to pony up more $$$
Edit: it seems they’ve already announced this revolutionary conclusion but I didn’t know that when I made this astounding prediction.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Aug 2022)

kev994 said:


> Don’t worry, there’s a summit. I bet they decide that the Feds need to pony up more $$$


Yup and committees will be formed and they will take six months to organize themselves and a year later we will have all forgotten about it.

Meanwhile the only ones that benefit will be the committee members. 
Now part of the health care mess is us - Canadians - who have been raised on "free health care" BS, so for any little ailment you can run to the ER/Urgent Care/Walk In/ Family doctor. Some people need to be politely told "you are wasting our time and everyone else's. Go home and put a band aid on it."


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## lenaitch (23 Aug 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Yup and committees will be formed and they will take six months to organize themselves and a year later we will have all forgotten about it.
> 
> Meanwhile the only ones that benefit will be the committee members.
> Now part of the health care mess is us - Canadians - who have been raised on "free health care" BS, so for any little ailment you can run to the ER/Urgent Care/Walk In/ Family doctor. Some people need to be politely told "you are wasting our time and everyone else's. Go home and put a band aid on it."


It would be interesting to see if there is an empirical study that compared whether 'public' (single payer) healthcare citizens ran to the doctor any more than 'out of pocket' patients.


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## OldSolduer (23 Aug 2022)

lenaitch said:


> It would be interesting to see if there is an empirical study that compared whether 'public' (single payer) healthcare citizens ran to the doctor any more than 'out of pocket' patients.


That would be an interesting study. OK so I watch Dr Pimple Popper - yeah I know I know - but I at least have never seen the cysts, lypomas etc you see on that show. I wonder if its because the patients can't afford the bill.
Maybe MM can weigh in on this.


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## Brad Sallows (23 Aug 2022)

> It would be interesting to see if there is an empirical study that compared whether 'public' (single payer) healthcare citizens ran to the doctor any more than 'out of pocket' patients.



The effect of partial fees (co-pays) in reducing frivolous use has been studied and confirmed.  Co-pays collide with the concern that people with little money (or misaligned spending priorities) will avoid necessary care.  Not that we have ever figured out how to deliver means-tested subsidies to needy people...

Canadian health care reform is crippled by the objection that someone, somewhere might be able to pay for extra care in Canada instead of crossing the border.


----------



## Furniture (25 Aug 2022)

Angry Cops did a video about this incident today... He mentioned a detail that I hadn't heard before. Apparently the VAC worker, after being told that MAID wasn't wanted, went on to explain that they helped another veteran get MAID, then arranged counseling for that veteran's kids... 

WTF is wrong with VAC? In what world is casually offering MAID to people seeking help reasonable, or acceptable?


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Aug 2022)

And now the VAC is the subject of a petition.... by outraged doctors:



No Soldier Euthanasia​Canadian soldiers serve their country and accept unlimited liability. This means they can be ordered into harm’s way, including loss of life. Soldiers can suffer moral injury, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), and physical injury as a consequence of being ordered into combat.

Canada owes a duty of care to those soldiers who have been injured physically or mentally as a consequence of being ordered into harm’s way. This duty of care extends to appropriate care and treatment for PTSD.

A recent and alarming news story by Mercedes Stephenson and Sean Boynton detailed a Canadian veteran being offered medically-assisted suicide as a “treatment” option for his PTSD by a Veterans Affairs service agent. The offer was unprompted and unsought by the veteran.

The story reports that, “Sources close to the veteran say he and his family were disgusted by the conversation, and feel betrayed by the agency mandated to assist veterans. The sources said the veteran was seeking services to recover from injuries suffered in the line of duty, and had been experiencing positive improvements in his mental and physical health. They say the unprompted offer of MAID [that is, euthanasia] disrupted his progress and has been harmful to the veteran’s progress and his family’s wellbeing.”

We are calling on the Minister of Veterans Affairs Lawrence MacAulay to enact a simple safeguard. *Sign our petition* calling on the Minister to ensure by regulation that conversations with VAC service agents about medically-assisted suicide may only be patient initiated.










						No Soldier Euthanasia
					

A Cdn veteran was offered medically-assisted suicide as a “treatment” option for PTSD. The offer was unprompted and unsought by the veteran.




					www.physiciansforlife.ca


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## Jarnhamar (25 Aug 2022)

I think this had more to do with an employee being a moron than coming from any sort of VAC training. Someone from VAC said the employee in question was told to stop a few times by the member but didn't.

That said VAC seems to have a reputation of going out of their way not to hire former service members. Maybe they'll want to rethink that approach.


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## rmc_wannabe (26 Aug 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> I think this had more to do with an employee being a moron than coming from any sort of VAC training. Someone from VAC said the employee in question was told to stop a few times by the member but didn't.


Regardless, lack of training or clear cut policy often results in people going off script. Any organization that does this will often throw the offending member under the bus, but the institutional failings should be the most culpable. If MAID is on the table now within Canada, develop a policy/train your people so you you don't end up looking like an ass in the G&M.



Jarnhamar said:


> That said VAC seems to have a reputation of going out of their way not to hire former service members. Maybe they'll want to rethink that approach.


Ex-service members represent a vast spectrum of people. Look at every BMQ platoon, you'll fond 2 or 3 glue bags that then go on to have "rewarding" careers. Some of those gluebags get into the PS or work for VAC and remain gluebags, just in more comfortable clothing. It's still that 2-3 out of 40 ratio, but cases like this tar everyone with the same brush.


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## Brad Sallows (26 Aug 2022)

Bill Barr was interviewed by Bari Weiss (transcript here).

"People are much more willful and willing to sacrifice institutional values in order to achieve a broader political objective."

General idea: professionalism has weakened, and people act on their own values and agendas using institutions as levers.  No conspiracies, just bunches of people moving in particular directions without much thought as to what they might be undermining.


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## Furniture (26 Aug 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Bill Barr was interviewed by Bari Weiss (transcript here).
> 
> "People are much more willful and willing to sacrifice institutional values in order to achieve a broader political objective."
> 
> General idea: professionalism has weakened, and people act on their own values and agendas using institutions as levers.  No conspiracies, just bunches of people moving in particular directions without much thought as to what they might be undermining.


The "deep state" is really just individual activists using their jobs to enact the change they want to see, regardless of the impact on the institution. 

Don't like the PM? Use process to prevent them from achieving their goals. Think more people should take forever sleeps? Encourage vulnerable veterans to kill themselves...


----------



## MilEME09 (25 Oct 2022)

Back in the news









						Veterans Affairs caseworker allegedly admits to helping veterans end their lives, committee hears
					

Testimony alleges caseworker suggested medically-assisted death was a better option than 'blowing your brains out against the wall'




					nationalpost.com


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## brihard (25 Oct 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Back in the news
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean, if you have a binary option set of “MAID” or “blow your brains out against a wall”, then yes, I guess technically that’s better. But imagine for a second if instead the department worked to suck less and provide compassionate and timely care and adjudication of claims? Wouldn’t that be wild?

While VAC, generally, needs a bunch more people, it certainly also needs one person fewer that it has at this exact moment.


----------



## TacticalTea (25 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I mean, if you have a binary option set of “MAID” or “blow your brains out against a wall”, then yes, I guess technically that’s better. But imagine for a second if instead the department worked to suck less and provide compassionate and timely care and adjudication of claims? Wouldn’t that be wild?
> 
> While VAC, generally, needs a bunch more people, it certainly also needs one person fewer that it has at this exact moment.


Just the person I was looking for. Although that may be more a lawyer question.

If the veteran had not suggested suicidal ideation prior to the caseworker's suggestion, could the latter be liable IAW CCC 241?



> Counselling or aiding suicide
> 
> *241* (1) Everyone is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than 14 years who, whether suicide ensues or not,
> (a) counsels a person to die by suicide or abets a person in dying by suicide; or
> (b) aids a person to die by suicide.


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## brihard (25 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Just the person I was looking for. Although that may be more a lawyer question.
> 
> If the veteran had not suggested suicidal ideation prior to the caseworker's suggestion, could the latter be liable IAW CCC 241?


I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t have a full fact set. I have not, to this point, seen information that, to me, would obviously push it over that line. “Counselling” is a very meaningful term in criminal law, and it’s a high threshold. It means more than just suggesting or planting an idea.

Given that the VAC employee was suggesting the veteran consider a process that has its own multi-step internal safeguards involving medical practitioners, I would struggle to imagine a succesful prosecution for 241. “You should consider talking to your doctor about MAID” is very different from “you should eat your gun”.

Again, repeating the caveat since this is a real and right now thing, I’m not a lawyer and have only the facts I’ve seen in a couple news stories.


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## TacticalTea (26 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m not a lawyer, and I don’t have a full fact set. I have not, to this point, seen information that, to me, would obviously push it over that line. “Counselling” is a very meaningful term in criminal law, and it’s a high threshold. It means more than just suggesting or planting an idea.
> 
> Given that the VAC employee was suggesting the veteran consider a process that has its own multi-step internal safeguards involving medical practitioners, I would struggle to imagine a succesful prosecution for 241. “You should consider talking to your doctor about MAID” is very different from “you should eat your gun”.
> 
> Again, repeating the caveat since this is a real and right now thing, I’m not a lawyer and have only the facts I’ve seen in a couple news stories.


Totally understand. Hypotheticals like that are always tough to juggle with in the legal sphere.

At prima facie, I'd tend to agree, as there wouldn't be much in the way of provable criminal intent.


----------



## brihard (26 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Totally understand. Hypotheticals like that are always tough to juggle with in the legal sphere.
> 
> At prima facie, I'd tend to agree, as there wouldn't be much in the way of provable criminal intent.


Not even an intent matter. I don’t see the _actus reus_ actually meeting the elements of the offence, again with the limited fact set. I don’t really know that any fact set could support a 241 conviction if it was simply causing, counseling, or inciting a person to engage a MAID process, because of MAID’s own statutory safeguards. To encourage someone to consider MAID means, in practice, that you’re encouraging that person to speak to two different physicians or nurse practitioners who each have to individually form a clinically informed opinion supportive of medical assistant in dying. Highly unlikely.

Weirdly, I did a law course last summer that used the evolution of MAID since 2014 to teach legal research methods. Great class and I dove pretty deeply into how our current MAID law came about…

EDIT TO ADD: Oh yeah, but again, fire this stupid bastard.


----------



## TacticalTea (26 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Not even an intent matter. I don’t see the _actus reus_ actually meeting the elements of the offence, again with the limited fact set. I don’t really know that any fact set could support a 241 conviction if it was simply causing, counseling, or inciting a person to engage a MAID process, because of MAID’s own statutory safeguards. To encourage someone to consider MAID means, in practice, that you’re encouraging that person to speak to two different physicians or nurse practitioners who each have to individually form a clinically informed opinion supportive of medical assistant in dying. Highly unlikely.
> 
> Weirdly, I did a law course last summer that used the evolution of MAID since 2014 to teach legal research methods. Great class and I dove pretty deeply into how our current MAID law came about…
> 
> EDIT TO ADD: Oh yeah, but again, fire this stupid bastard.


Oh, interesting. That's my blind spot on MAID, I suppose. I am not fully aware of that procedure's intricacies.

I simply thought of it in the form of ''you should MAID yourself''. Which I could see eventually replacing what kids currently describe as ''self-deletion'' or ''KYS''.


----------



## brihard (26 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Oh, interesting. That's my blind spot on MAID, I suppose. I am not fully aware of that procedure's intricacies.
> 
> I simply thought of it in the form of ''you should MAID yourself''. Which I could see eventually replacing what kids currently describe as ''self-deletion'' or ''KYS''.


Nope. A doctor or NP has to sign off and another has to agree, and there are medical criteria too.


----------



## mariomike (26 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> Which I could see eventually replacing what kids currently describe as ''self-deletion'' or ''KYS''.


Which replaced doing a Kevorkian.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Oct 2022)

TacticalTea said:


> I simply thought of it in the form of ''you should MAID yourself''. Which I could see eventually replacing what kids currently describe as ''self-deletion'' or ''KYS''.


My teen called it "Kermit slip n slide" and I unfortunately lost it with giggles over a very sensitive subject.


----------



## brihard (26 Oct 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> My teen called it "Kermit slip n slide" and I unfortunately lost it with giggles over a very sensitive subject.


I can’t even wrap my head around how they came up with that one.


----------



## rmc_wannabe (26 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I can’t even wrap my head around how they came up with that one.


Onomatopea I guess. Sounds similar enough without rousing the mod bots on Reddit or Faceboo. k


----------



## Fishbone Jones (26 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I can’t even wrap my head around how they came up with that one.


Say it slow kermit slipandslide - commit suicide

Like Cockney rhyming slang.


----------



## brihard (26 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Say it slow kermit slipandslide - commit suicide
> 
> Like Cockney rhyming slang.


_facepalm_ Thank you. Not sure how I didn’t catch that.


----------



## Remius (26 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> _facepalm_ Thank you. Not sure how I didn’t catch that.


Don’t worry I didn’t catch it either.


----------



## daftandbarmy (25 Nov 2022)

Second complaint...


Another Canadian Forces member alleges Veterans Affairs offered assisted death as 'support'​ 
'I was kinda hoping they would help me with my transition out of the military,' 'Bruce' said on a trauma-recovery podcast for CF members
​OTTAWA — A second Canadian Forces member has come forward with allegations that a Veterans Affairs Canada caseworker offered him medical assistance in dying after he asked for support for post-traumatic stress disorder.

Still in active service, the Canadian Forces member referred to himself only by the pseudonym “Bruce,” out of fear of retaliation, in Wednesday’s episode of Operation Tango Romeo, a trauma-recovery podcast for Canadian Forces members hosted by former Canadian soldier and veterans advocate Mark Meincke.

“I had been suffering from PTSD and recently had a lot of suicidal thoughts,” Bruce told Meincke during the gripping and emotional podcast, explaining he’d contacted Veterans Affairs Canada for help and awaited a return call from a caseworker.

“I was kinda hoping they would help me with my transition out of the military, help me find new doctors once I get out, and assist me with any other kind of claims I might have.

*“He was told in his original phone call where he was offered MAID, ‘we can do it for you, because we’ve done it before, and one veteran that we’ve done this for, after we completed MAID, after we killed him, we now have supports in place for his wife and two children,'” Meincke told the committee. He added that the caseworker allegedly told the veteran that MAID was a better alternative to “blowing your brains out.”*









						Another Canadian Forces member alleges Veterans Affairs offered assisted death as 'support'
					

The soldier had reached out to Veteran Affairs Canada for support for PTSD and alleges he was instead told about medically assisted dying.




					nationalpost.com


----------



## brihard (25 Nov 2022)

Ok, now I definitely want to know if this all came from a single rogue worker or if there’s a broader problem of this with VAC agents.


----------



## ueo (25 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Ok, now I definitely want to know if this all came from a single rogue worker or if there’s a broader problem of this with VAC agents.


Sounds like an iceburg tip.


----------



## brihard (25 Nov 2022)

ueo said:


> Sounds like an iceburg tip.


I’m still cautiously optimistic on that… With the outrage after the initial story, had it been much more widespread I think we’d have seen several more such accounts much faster rather than one (or two?) additional ones a month or two later.


----------



## mariomike (25 Nov 2022)

ueo said:


> Sounds like an iceburg tip.



Possibly. My retirement organization invited me to a seminar on 14 Dec. "MAID: The Ontario experience".

The speaker will be a member of the Canadian Psychiatric Association MAID working group and the Joint Centre for Bioethics MAID Community of Practice.


----------



## Halifax Tar (25 Nov 2022)

I truly support MAID so long as its a personal choice.  

My fear has always been that it will be used in a maleficent means and now I am worried that is beginning to happen.


----------



## dimsum (25 Nov 2022)

brihard said:


> Ok, now I definitely want to know if this all came from a single rogue worker or if there’s a broader problem of this with VAC agents.


Related article.  Sounds like one caseworker (now suspended) suggested it to 5 different CAF members.









						Canadian veterans were offered assisted suicide in five instances, committee hears
					

Veterans Affairs Minister Lawrence MacAulay told a House committee the case has now been turned over to the RCMP for investigation.




					nationalpost.com
				






> As many as five Canadian Armed Forces veterans were offered medically-assisted death (MAID) by a now-suspended Veterans Affairs Canada caseworker, the minister responsible for the department testified on Thursday.


----------



## Weinie (25 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> Related article.  Sounds like one caseworker (now suspended) suggested it to 5 different CAF members.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe we should offer it to him. Just saying.


----------



## brihard (25 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> Related article.  Sounds like one caseworker (now suspended) suggested it to 5 different CAF members.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. I hadn’t yet seen that when I read my reply. I see it’s also been referred to police for investigation.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Nov 2022)

This is why sometimes policy makers have to say "No, we're not doing that".  Because you can't trust people with it.


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Nov 2022)

ueo said:


> Sounds like an iceburg tip.


Do not rush to judgment. I would dare say this is someone going out on a limb and not a systemic issue


----------



## MilEME09 (25 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Do not rush to judgment. I would dare say this is someone going out on a limb and not a systemic issue


Hopefully this leads to better training for case workers, and also more of them, they are over worked and understaffed


----------



## OldSolduer (25 Nov 2022)

MilEME09 said:


> Hopefully this leads to better training for case workers, and also more of them, they are over worked and understaffed


And careful selection of case workers. Just because someone has a degree in something or other doesn’t make them suitable


----------



## brihard (25 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Do not rush to judgment. I would dare say this is someone going out on a limb and not a systemic issue


This is the way I'm leaning on this.

I'd be curious to see if there's anything further to the story that underlies the police referral. At face value it would be very difficult to establish a chargeable offense (presumably, s.241, 'Counseling Suicide') out of recommending someone consider MAiD, just because of the procedural safeguards (concurrence of 2x physicians/nurse practitioners) that are part of that process. Although it's not unwise of VAC to let police make that call which, really, will likely get bumped in turn to an opinion from crown prosecutors.


----------



## GK .Dundas (26 Nov 2022)

Somewhere I suspect the was a fairly one sided conversation between the case worker and his supervisor.  
Starting like this I suspect  btw the caseworker part is like every adult in the various Charlie Brown animated  cartoon.
Supervisor: Umm, as you know we've received a complaint and we'd like to hear your version of events..
Caseworker: Wahh-wah wahh wahh wah wahh wah  and wah.
Supervisor: You're kidding , right ?
Wah wah wah . 
Supervisor;  Seriously?
Caseworker: Wah -wah !


----------



## ueo (26 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> And careful selection of case workers. Just because someone has a degree in something or other doesn’t make them suitable


And about 20 yrs old with no "life" experiences!


----------



## GK .Dundas (26 Nov 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Somewhere I suspect the was a fairly one sided conversation between the case worker and his supervisor.
> Starting like this I suspect  btw the caseworker part is like every adult in the various Charlie Brown animated  cartoon.
> Supervisor: Umm, as you know we've received a complaint and we'd like to hear your version of events..
> Caseworker: Wahh-wah wahh wahh wah wahh wah  and wah.
> ...


----------



## GK .Dundas (26 Nov 2022)

Apparently something ate most of my post...it much longer.


----------



## OldSolduer (26 Nov 2022)

GK .Dundas said:


> Somewhere I suspect the was a fairly one sided conversation between the case worker and his supervisor.
> Starting like this I suspect  btw the caseworker part is like every adult in the various Charlie Brown animated  cartoon.
> Supervisor: Umm, as you know we've received a complaint and we'd like to hear your version of events..
> Caseworker: Wahh-wah wahh wahh wah wahh wah  and wah.
> ...


I beg to differ. 

They probably discussed the case worker’s “feelings “ and didn’t raise their voice or leveled any criticism. Because their “feelings” are more important than what this person had done.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Dec 2022)

If I'm reading this right, someone in the system may have actually put the offer in writing?  








						Former paralympian tells MPs veterans department offered her assisted death
					

A paraplegic former member of the Canadian military shocked MPs on Thursday by testifying that the Department of Veterans Affairs offered her, in writing, the opportunity for a medically assisted death — and even offered to provide the equipment. Retired corporal Christine Gauthier, who competed...




					ca.news.yahoo.com
				



Ok, once?  Bad actor.  Twice?  Maybe a few bad actors here & there.  In writing?  If true, and the letter hasn't been shared publicly yet, starting to feel just a bit more systemic to me.

Here's who else was speaking to the committee yesterday





						Minutes - ACVA (44-1) - No. 29 - House of Commons of Canada
					

Minutes - ACVA (44-1) - No. 29 - House of Commons of Canada



					www.ourcommons.ca


----------



## mariomike (2 Dec 2022)

> — and even offered to provide the equipment.



Nothing new about suicide, but MAiD is something new to me.

From what I understand, it explicitly acknowledges that self-administration of medication should be a viable option. 

If that is the case, non-supervised self-administration can lead to complications. ( Regurgitation, regaining consciousness, longer than expected time to death, or never actually became comatose... )

I could see the family panicing and dialing 9-1-1.

What is the appropriate response if the paramedic sent to the scene where the patient is struggling to die and they know ( actually saw the documentation ) that the patient is part of a MaiD process? What if the patient changes their mind...

Can a family member with medical power of attorney supercede the patient's wishes? I don't think so.

The family panics. Paramedics are called in to rescusitate, and know it's a MAiD case.

Or, the paramedics are not told it's a MAiD case...

I'm no lawyer or MAiD  SME.  Never sent on a MAiD call. Just a retired person with a few hypothetical questions.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Dec 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> If I'm reading this right, someone in the system may have actually put the offer in writing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Furniture (2 Dec 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> If I'm reading this right, someone in the system may have actually put the offer in writing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't be surprised if more cases come to light, there is bound to be more than one worker who thinks offering to "ease their suffering" is being helpful.


----------



## The Bread Guy (2 Dec 2022)

Furniture said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if more cases come to light, there is bound to be more than one worker who thinks offering to "ease their suffering" is being helpful.


True, but if someone did put it in writing, if this is like any other government department, someone higher up the food chain _had_ to approve the text, even if it was a form letter template that was cut & pasted multiple times.

Individual dummy-ness is one thing, institutional dummy-ness means it's a "top down" problem (maybe not all the way to the top, but well above the folks dealing face-to-face with clients).


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Dec 2022)

I briefly watched her testimony - and to say that I am shocked would be a lie.

I'm not shocked at all given the attitudes that some Canadians have.
Perhaps if VAC hired a few veterans to assist case managers this would not be an issue.

BUT we all know where the public service stands on that subject.


----------



## YZT580 (2 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I briefly watched her testimony - and to say that I am shocked would be a lie.
> 
> I'm not shocked at all given the attitudes that some Canadians have.
> Perhaps if VAC hired a few veterans to assist case managers this would not be an issue.
> ...


Were you really expecting anything else once the legislation came out?  Sorry but we have made it a habit of setting the lowest possible standard and then missing it


----------



## Takeniteasy (3 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> I briefly watched her testimony - and to say that I am shocked would be a lie.
> 
> I'm not shocked at all given the attitudes that some Canadians have.
> Perhaps if VAC hired a few veterans to assist case managers this would not be an issue.
> ...


I worked for VAC from Sept 16 to Mar 18 in the Scarborough office. I was there as the funding project manager for IG Toronto but did have many interactions with CMs, VSAs, Disability Benefits adjudicators, and others. There were no specific files discussed but there were many questions about environments, circumstances, attitudes, etc... Some had family members who were CAF members, others had no direct connection and all were very much interested in understanding the whole picture. I also had interactions with many former CAF members who were now employed with VAC, unfortunately they were mostly in Senior Advisor positions and had brought their 30 plus years of CAF institutionalization to VAC. Sorry but someone who made it to senior ranks and has a full pension plus their public service salary does not really relate to the majority of VAC clients especially the ones from the past 20 years or so. -------
For example: when I went to Winnipeg in Sept 16 for the VAC onboarding week (about 100 newly hired employees ranging from administration, CM, VSAs, etc...) They had a CF 101 portion delivered by two 30 plus year CAF members on secondment one a LCol and the other a CWO. Unfortunately, I had to sit there while they went on to perpetuate negative stereotypes of mostly NCMs by relating anecdotal stories of criminal offences and actions. The high light was when the LCol made a comment about the movies Broke Back Mountain and Heart Break Ridge... this had the room laughing except for myself and the people who were sitting at my table because they had seen how I was reacting to this very poor presentation until that point. (These two presenters went on to retirement and directly into VAC Senior Advisor positions)

Your suggestion about hiring Veteran Advocates within VAC for the specific support of the regional officer workers would be a good step. The CMs and VSAs who do all the direct work with Veterans need that support firsthand and not via a multistage decision/question stream. The challenge I see is background and ability of a Veteran to be objective in their communications regarding the multitude of individual experiences each Veteran has or had experienced.  Like the example I provided above the challenge is finding qualified or I should say those who understand empathy and that the Veterans Well Being Act is legislation and not a place for your personal beliefs.

Regarding Christine's situation, the suggestion of MAID was from a Veterans Service Agent (it's been hinted at in regard to the investigation and statement that the suggestions are related to one VSA ) during a phone call. The letters referenced are regarding the denial of mobility supports and more specifically a ramp for her to access her home and parts for her wheelchair. Not sure how other so called Veteran support groups or Charities have not stepped up to the plate to provide this ramp??? Yes, it's a VAC responsibility to provide or deny based on the legislation but CMs and VSAs do have the ability to facilitate other avenues of funding for specific situations and circumstances.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Dec 2022)

Takeniteasy said:


> I worked for VAC from Sept 16 to Mar 18 in the Scarborough office. I was there as the funding project manager for IG Toronto but did have many interactions with CMs, VSAs, Disability Benefits adjudicators, and others. There were no specific files discussed but there were many questions about environments, circumstances, attitudes, etc... Some had family members who were CAF members, others had no direct connection and all were very much interested in understanding the whole picture. I also had interactions with many former CAF members who were now employed with VAC, unfortunately they were mostly in Senior Advisor positions and had brought their 30 plus years of CAF institutionalization to VAC. Sorry but someone who made it to senior ranks and has a full pension plus their public service salary does not really relate to the majority of VAC clients especially the ones from the past 20 years or so. -------
> For example: when I went to Winnipeg in Sept 16 for the VAC onboarding week (about 100 newly hired employees ranging from administration, CM, VSAs, etc...) They had a CF 101 portion delivered by two 30 plus year CAF members on secondment one a LCol and the other a CWO. Unfortunately, I had to sit there while they went on to perpetuate negative stereotypes of mostly NCMs by relating anecdotal stories of criminal offences and actions. The high light was when the LCol made a comment about the movies Broke Back Mountain and Heart Break Ridge... this had the room laughing except for myself and the people who were sitting at my table because they had seen how I was reacting to this very poor presentation until that point. (These two presenters went on to retirement and directly into VAC Senior Advisor positions)
> 
> Your suggestion about hiring Veteran Advocates within VAC for the specific support of the regional officer workers would be a good step. The CMs and VSAs who do all the direct work with Veterans need that support firsthand and not via a multistage decision/question stream. The challenge I see is background and ability of a Veteran to be objective in their communications regarding the multitude of individual experiences each Veteran has or had experienced.  Like the example I provided above the challenge is finding qualified or I should say those who understand empathy and that the Veterans Well Being Act is legislation and not a place for your personal beliefs.
> ...



Not that I'm an expert in the subject, but it strikes me that any good insurance company could run things better than VAC. 

Why not go to competitive tender and contract out VAC services?

Compared to the other caseloads managed by the insurance industry, the CAF client portion would probably be miniscule.

Just sayin'...


----------



## Takeniteasy (3 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Not that I'm an expert in the subject, but it strikes me that any good insurance company could run things better than VAC.
> 
> Why not go to competitive tender and contract out VAC services?
> 
> ...


VAC has tendered and the new service provider started their contract last month. VAC sent letters in the summer and PCVRS sent letters in November regarding their taking over of Rehabilitation Services and the Vocational Assistance Program. This is a running theme and once again another stream of decision makers is in the mix and no doubt a transition period will be an excuse for delayed supports... call me negative but VAC and PCVRS need to feel the pressure full time, it's what real advocacy for Veterans should be about, no one should feel absolute in their assuming authority over others.

Sisip is another issue when it comes to long term disability and benefits. Aside from the immediate cheque from Sisip there are a few Veterans in a perpetual state of spin due to Sisip and VAC benefits competing against one another.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (3 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Not that I'm an expert in the subject, but it strikes me that any good insurance company could run things better than VAC.
> 
> Why not go to competitive tender and contract out VAC services?
> 
> ...


In the meantime I think one of the best messages we can give Veterans is "the only person that is going to help you, is yourself".

History had told me that the Government isn't going to help and you'll waste a tonne of personal energy angrily trying to get them to.  

Nobody is coming to your aide when SHTF and you need to be able to be independent and autonomous.


----------



## Quirky (3 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> In the meantime I think one of the best messages we can give Veterans is "the only person that is going to help you, is yourself".



The message I give is don’t be a hero. With the state of the military there is no reason to finish your career with a physical disability, or worse. Breaking your body or mind for this government with the resources they give isn’t worth it. A small amount of money won’t help you with a lifetime worth of pain or suffering.


----------



## dapaterson (3 Dec 2022)

Apparently there are now five known instances, all linked to the same individual, and VAC has contacted the RCMP.



> MacAulay said the four instances, which took place between 2019 and May 2022, were "all related to one single employee and it's not a widespread or a systemic issue," and added that the RCMP was also contacted for potential charges.
> 
> "We expect all Veterans Affairs Canada employees to interact with veterans with care, compassion and respect, and the actions of this one employee is simply disgusting," he said.
> 
> ...











						Paralympian trying to get wheelchair ramp says Veterans Affairs employee offered her assisted dying
					

A veteran and former Paralympian told a parliamentary committee that a caseworker from the Veterans Affairs Canada offered her medical assistance in dying, a week after the veterans affairs minister confirmed that at least four other veterans were offered the same thing.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (3 Dec 2022)

Quirky said:


> The message I give is don’t be a hero. With the state of the military there is no reason to finish your career with a physical disability, or worse. Breaking your body or mind for this government with the resources they give isn’t worth it. A small amount of money won’t help you with a lifetime worth of pain or suffering.


Bingo!

And when you inevitably get hurt trying to be Captain Canada, they'll discard you like a piece of trash. They always think they are going to find the next sucker to do their bidding.

The youth would be wise to look elsewhere for other opportunities.  Only join the Military now if you literally can't do anything else.

Especially in this Country, where Veterans are looked at  with low key disdain by a substantial portion of the Joe/Jill Public.


----------



## mariomike (3 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> Especially in this Country, where Veterans are looked at  with low key disdain by a substantial portion of the Joe/Jill Public.



Tommy








						Tommy
					

I went into a public ‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer, The publican ‘e up an’ sez, ” We serve no red-coats here.” The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an&#8217…




					www.kiplingsociety.co.uk


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Dec 2022)

Part of the issue is that the front line workers for the most part have not one clue about military life.

The exercises where you get zero rest for 3 days. The posting cycles. The endless days at sea, or on Maritime patrol - which I understand can be a bitch.

The injuries that are incurred which see the ends of careers, or injuries that become chronic way down the road.

This is what they need - to listen to and try to understand.


----------



## dimsum (3 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The youth would be wise to look elsewhere for other opportunities. Only join the Military now if you literally can't do anything else.


Now?  

That has been the running theme, unless we were in a shooting war, for decades.  

I joined pre-9/11 and the attitude towards the CAF (minus the sexual misconduct, which the public didn't know about then) was about the same.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Dec 2022)

dimsum said:


> Now?
> 
> That has been the running theme, unless we were in a shooting war, for decades.
> 
> I joined pre-9/11 and the attitude towards the CAF (minus the sexual misconduct, which the public didn't know about then) was about the same.



Same.  My parents sat me down and asked me why I was throwing my life away and why I wanted to become a drunken wife beater.


----------



## Quirky (3 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Same.  My parents sat me down and asked me why I was throwing my life away and why I wanted to become a drunken wife beater.



What rank do you need to hit for that course?


----------



## OldSolduer (3 Dec 2022)

I joined  in 1974, most 17 year olds were “we don’t like military stuff Vietnam baby killers”

It was interesting


----------



## Grimey (3 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Same.  My parents sat me down and asked me why I was throwing my life away and why I wanted to become a drunken wife beater.


My high school peers thought I was soft in the head, my dad was ok with it, mum thought I’d become a raging alcoholic within weeks.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Dec 2022)

Grimey said:


> My high school peers thought I was soft in the head, my dad was ok with it, mum thought I’d become a raging alcoholic within weeks.



Well, they weren't too far off


----------



## OldSolduer (6 Dec 2022)

Woman featured in pro-euthanasia commercial wanted to live, say friends
					

'I feel like I'm falling through the cracks so if I'm not able to access health care am I then able to access death care?' Hatch said




					nationalpost.com
				




From the NP

It’s gruesome reading.


----------



## ArmyRick (6 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Woman featured in pro-euthanasia commercial wanted to live, say friends
> 
> 
> 'I feel like I'm falling through the cracks so if I'm not able to access health care am I then able to access death care?' Hatch said
> ...


Wow. This is but one of many symptoms that Canada has huge issues.


----------



## Good2Golf (6 Dec 2022)

Indeed, as an ultimate escape from a poorly/disfunctioning system, it’s a travesty. 😔


----------



## Takeniteasy (6 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Woman featured in pro-euthanasia commercial wanted to live, say friends
> 
> 
> 'I feel like I'm falling through the cracks so if I'm not able to access health care am I then able to access death care?' Hatch said
> ...


In recent times the politicians and corporations have begun to understand and use the value of the speaking point, constructed cliche above the actual realities of the people who are experiencing it directly. And many just eat it up. I was wondering what the actual story was when I saw that add on tv... Best course I have ever taken was Rethinking Disability via the Socially Constructed Disability Lense.


----------



## ArmyRick (6 Dec 2022)

Takeniteasy said:


> In recent times the politicians and corporations have begun to understand and use the value of the speaking point, constructed cliche above the actual realities of the people who are experiencing it directly. And many just eat it up. I was wondering what the actual story was when I saw that add on tv... Best course I have ever taken was Rethinking Disability via the Socially Constructed Disability Lense.


I get MAID for people who are truly fooked, like very painful and terminal conditions like late stage cancer (as one of many examples)

However in Jennyfer Hatch's case, if I understand it, she could have had some quality of life with her condition? I must plead ignorance on her condition. Med dudes, got more info?

However look how easy the medical system hooked her up for MAID. No hesitation it seems, practically rolling out the red carpet. 

This bothers me. When do the "enlightened" for the sake of "food supply/climate/stopping hate/etc" decide maybe we should euthanize disabled people (I have a son in this category), addicts, homeless, or damn, too many whites (insert your race, culture or religion)? 

This really strikes me as a slippery slope Canada is standing on.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Dec 2022)

So does this mean he lied under oath???









						Cabinet minister now says Veterans Affairs never offered MAID — after testifying they did
					

A tweet posted by Lawrence MacAulay Monday contradicted testimony on Nov. 24, when he said VAC did offer MAID to Canadian Forces members




					nationalpost.com
				





Cabinet minister now says Veterans Affairs never offered MAID — after testifying they did​ 
Lawrence MacAulay said VAC 'never has and never will' offer MAID in a tweet Monday. But, in his testimony on Nov. 24, he said VAC offered it to as many as five Canadian Forces members

Author of the article:
Bryan Passifiume 
 Published Dec 20, 2022  •
 
 
 OTTAWA — Despite proffering a public apology and claiming the case was under police investigation, Canada’s veterans affairs minister now says Canadian soldiers were never offered a medically assisted death by members of his department.
In a late-night Monday tweet, Veterans Affairs Minister Lawrence MacAulay denied that Veterans Affairs caseworkers had offered medical assistance in dying (MAID) to Canadian Forces veterans, contrary to numerous news reports and his own testimony before a Commons committee.
“This is incredibly false and harmful misinformation,” MacAulay tweeted in response to a tweet by Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre, who condemned the practice.”Veterans Affairs Canada does not offer medical assistance in dying to Veterans, never has and never will.”


The minister’s tweet runs counter to his testimony before the House of Commons veterans affairs committee in November, when MacAulay not only admitted that as many as five Canadian Forces members were offered MAID by VAC, but said the caseworker accused of being behind the offers was suspended and the case was now before the RCMP for possible criminal charges.“I’ve said it before and I’ll say it once again, what happened was totally unacceptable,” MacAulay said during his testimony last month.
“There is no way to justify it, and I will not try to do that today, or ever.”


An internal investigation led by his deputy minister, Paul Ledwell, uncovered a total of four cases where veterans were offered MAID, MacAulay told the committee — all allegedly by the same caseworker.
The committee hearing took place one day after a fifth case was revealed by the National Post in which an active service member calling himself “Bruce” told Tango Romeo podcast host Mark Meincke that a VAC caseworker had offered him MAID the previous year, without any prompting or previous mention of suicide.

The story initially broke over the summer with reports of a VAC caseworker repeatedly suggesting MAID to a veteran calling for help dealing with PTSD.
The caseworker allegedly told the unidentified veteran that Veterans Affairs had helped other veterans take their own lives, and that MAID was a better alternative to “blowing your brains out.”
During his testimony last month, MacAulay described a second instance that occurred in December 2021, followed by a third in 2019 where the minister said MAID was “inappropriately raised,” and a fourth this past May when the caseworker again provided MAID information to a veteran.

Earlier this month, veteran and Paralympic athlete Christine Gauthier told the committee she was offered medical suicide at least twice during interactions with VAC seeking assistance in building a wheelchair ramp at her home.
MP and committee vice-chair Blake Richards said he’s aware of at least eight veterans offered MAID, and told the committee there may be many more.
MacAulay admitted the December 2021 case ended with the veteran taking his own life with medical assistance. 
Both MacAulay and Ledwell said the caseworker involved in four of those cases was suspended and the matter forwarded to the RCMP.


Reaction online to MacAulay’s tweet was swift. Richards tweeted a video of MacAulay’s testimony from the Nov. 24 committee meeting, captioned with “Has your story changed yet again, Minister?”
Conservative MP Michelle Rempel Garner included a screenshot of a news story of the minister’s Nov. 24 testimony, telling MacAuley that “gaslighting doesn’t fix the problem, Minister.”

MacAulay’s spokeswoman, Ericka Lashbrook Knutson, said the tweet is being misinterpreted and “doesn’t at all” say the minister denied that VAC caseworkers were offering medically assisted death to soldiers.


“The minister has been very, very clear,” she said.”The tweet says it is not a VAC policy, never has been and never will be — this was one rogue employee, MAID is not to be brought up with veterans.”
That caseworker, she confirmed, is no longer employed.
Veterans are still free to bring up MAID with their caseworkers if they wish, she said, but those cases are now to be immediately forwarded to management.
Meincke, a veterans wellness advocate and podcaster who also testified before the committee on the issue, said MacAulay’s tweet was devastating.

“I warned him to come clean because I’m not going to quit, and it’s all going to come out — I guarantee everything’s going to come out with solid proof,” he said.
“So get out in front of it and tell the damned truth.”

Meincke, who spoke with three of the veterans who’ve come forward, said he found MacAulay’s tweet even more confusing considering he was sent a letter from the minister himself apologizing for caseworkers counselling Canadian soldiers to kill themselves.
“Our examination has uncovered four confirmed cases of inappropriate discussion on medical assistance in dying,” MacAulay wrote in his letter to Meincke, which was seen by the National Post.
“I understand that other veterans have reached out to you to share their experiences, and I am committed to hearing their stories and doing anything in my power to correct any harm.”


Meincke remains unconvinced that either the minister or VAC is taking the matter seriously.
“We do need an external investigation on this,” he said.
“We can’t have the fox watching the hen house on this.”


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## brihard (20 Dec 2022)

The VAC employee is no longer a VAC employee, though VAC is being cagey about how employment ceased. VAC is saying they’ve reviewed 400,000 cases and thus far have only been able to find four instances all linked to the same former employee.









						Veterans Affairs Canada service agent who raised medical assistance in dying 'no longer an employee'
					

The Veterans Affairs Canada service agent who the department says 'was responsible' for all four confirmed cases of medical assistance in dying (MAID) being discussed with veterans is 'no longer an employee,' CTV News has confirmed.




					www.ctvnews.ca


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## daftandbarmy (20 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> The VAC employee is no longer a VAC employee, though VAC is being cagey about how employment ceased. VAC is saying they’ve reviewed 400,000 cases and thus far have only been able to find four instances all linked to the same former employee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've got a better idea...


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## OldSolduer (21 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> The VAC employee is no longer a VAC employee, though VAC is being cagey about how employment ceased. VAC is saying they’ve reviewed 400,000 cases and thus far have only been able to find four instances all linked to the same former employee.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably moved to a "new and challenging position " within the Federal Government.


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## Humphrey Bogart (21 Dec 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Probably moved to a "new and challenging position " within the Federal Government.


The Passport Office 🤣


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## brihard (21 Dec 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The Passport Office 🤣


If he was serious about making clients want to kill themselves he’d move to Air Canada.


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## Humphrey Bogart (21 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> If he was serious about making clients want to kill themselves he’d move to Air Canada.


Don't give them ideas!


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## FSTO (21 Dec 2022)

So that communications training contract that got Minister Ng into trouble for is sure paying dividends! LOL!

On other fronts, that bit of honesty from the government ministers we saw at the Trucker Hearings has been completely tossed out the window and we are back to the good ole days of "message control".
Fan fu**ing tasktic.


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## mariomike (30 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> A doctor or NP has to sign off and another has to agree, and there are medical criteria too.



What could possibly go wrong? 









						Death with Dignity: When the Medical Aid in Dying Cocktail Gets into the Wrong Hands
					

This is a case presentation on how Denver Health medics navigated the moral, legal and medical decisions on a death with dignity call gone awry.




					www.jems.com


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## PuckChaser (31 Dec 2022)

VAC has released a new commercial to help explain their position.


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## medicineman (31 Dec 2022)

PuckChaser said:


> VAC has released a new commercial to help explain their position.


Not sure if I should laugh or not, given I've been writing palliative care/end of life care orders on folks for the last couple days...


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## daftandbarmy (31 Dec 2022)

medicineman said:


> Not sure if I should laugh or not, given I've been writing palliative care/end of life care orders on folks for the last couple days...



My bold, but what were they reading?


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## medicineman (1 Jan 2023)

daftandbarmy said:


> My bold, but what were they reading?


Alas, one was comatose, so not reading, and the other one wasn't in the reading mood.


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