# When is Annual leave required for Military events?



## gmandnd007 (4 Oct 2013)

This is for Reg Force, I'm not sure if this pretains to reserve force.
When I was posted to Pet, or Gag or been anywhere else and there was a military function we got approval and we attended.
For example the Mess is putting on a Golf day. If you are granted permission to attend are you required to take annual leave? If no, give me a reference or some meat to back that up.
I'm EME and in the past have always gone to EME golf, bonspiel, hockey. Never had to take leave and was usually TD. My new posting I was told I'm on my own time my own dime. I'm ok with the own time but having to take leave really boggles my mind.
So there are two examples if anyone has any imput feel free, I should mention that my direct superior and his superior are both civies.


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## Sunnyns (4 Oct 2013)

It's up to your chain of command if they support it or not.   We've done unit sports days at other clubs and if you sign up or it's not optional, your given a meet up time and everyone meets there.  If your requesting to do something not organized through your chain of command such as volunteer then you can do it via memo and that is your approval to do so.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Oct 2013)

CF Leave Policy Manual

If your unit is saying "own dime, own time", that means you won't get $ or time off work = "take Ann Leave if you plan to attend".

Not sure how your unit works, but have you considered going to the Unit WO/MWO and asking their opinion?  I've also worked in the mixed CAF/Civie CofC world before and found the best way to approach these things was thru the CAF rank CofC.  My unit did things like Adventure Trg days, bowling, etc and the rule of thumb was "if you aren't attending, you shall be at your place of work".   CAF mbr's being away from work for things like this without using Ann Lve time can be a friction point with non-CAF folks who are bound by CBAs, etc.

This is a Sgt & WOs Mess function, the CWO may have secured permission from the Boss for CAF mbrs to attend and it be a sanctioned CAF event.  That would (should?) negate the requirement to 'take leave'.


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## Lightguns (4 Oct 2013)

This is becoming more and more the norm.  Recently, our sigs guys + 1 retired sigs civie employee were denied TD and sanctioned worktime to attend a Sigs Assoc Curling.  They had gotten it every year before this request.  It came down from Leslie before he pulled pin that this is a mis-use of time off for special events.  Only non-DND events that cost nothing, are off base and make the CF look good would be supported, otherwise take annual.

The Liberals are really not going to like that guy if he ever gets control of their purse strings!


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## captloadie (4 Oct 2013)

I do think things are chaning, partly due to fiscal restraint, and partly due to fiscal responsibility. At least in my unit, if you are going on a sponsored/approved event (Wing teams, CISM, etc), there is still funding. You want to go to the Logspiel, Branch Golf tournament, etc, your on your own dime, and likely your own time. I think the last golf tournament out of town, the CO granted 1 day short, and you  had to take 1 annual day. Even using unit vehicles is becoming sticky, depending on how strickly the regs are applied. Technically, DND vehicles can only be used for authorized duties/details. When you are on leave, you can't also be on duty, therefore _technically,_ the vehicle isn't on a duty run.


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## gmandnd007 (4 Oct 2013)

Pretty Sad! The TD is nice but I'm more concerned about the time off. Yes I enjoy the sports but just as much I like conecting with members from the base or branch depending on the occasion. To bad when people loose site of that. Because I'm the only one in green here surrounded by civies I'm told I can't have things they don't get. Well funny but the people that fall under me also make $15K more a year than me. I'd like that to be fair too.  If everyone had to take leave to go to a mess or branch function during the week no one would go.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Oct 2013)

gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> Because I'm the only one in green here surrounded by civies I'm told I can't have things they don't get.



That is utter BS IMO and I'd heard the same thing in a previous unit to which I said "if you want to attend military stuff, all you have to do is..join the military!"  

As I said I'd be hunting down the Sgt Major/RSM to get their take.


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## dapaterson (4 Oct 2013)

So, as I understand the situation:  You want to take a day off work to play golf.  You are told that, in order to do so, you must take a day off work.

Somehow, in the Reg F culture of entitlement, this is offensive.  Imagine the indignity, being expected to go to work!


I suggest you write to the Globe and Mail and complain about this mistreatment.  I'm certain that you will draw a great deal of attention to this ongoing injustice.


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## Remius (4 Oct 2013)

I've worked in places where the CO would authorise early stand down on long weekend fridays.   And others that didn't.  The ones that didn't were always seen as somehow being miserly and rules sticklers even though there is absolutely no entitlement to leave early.

I guess it's a case of being used to a certain perk you've always had until you find out you never had any right to it to start. A lot of people feel screwed over when they haven't been.


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## Eye In The Sky (4 Oct 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, as I understand the situation:  You want to take a day off work to play golf.  You are told that, in order to do so, you must take a day off work.
> 
> Somehow, in the Reg F culture of entitlement, this is offensive.  Imagine the indignity, being expected to go to work!
> 
> ...



Reg Force 'culture of entitlement'?   :  Please; I've spent enough time in both PRes and Reg force to have done similar things (a Mess/unit event during a 'work day') that was given the *ok* by the CofC, and one of them slightly over a full week in length (Adventure Training while in a Cl B/A, and it was with a PRes unit).  Each event was authorized by the appropriate level in the CofC.  

1 day for a Mess Function doesn't seem either (a) unreasonable or (b) uncommon and I also will suggest this isn't  a 'Big R / little r'  issue.  

I find this post somewhat "out of character" for you.


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## Wolseleydog (6 Oct 2013)

Just to throw in another two cents -- if your unit wants it to be leave you could request one day special.


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## PuckChaser (6 Oct 2013)

Wolseleydog said:
			
		

> Just to throw in another two cents -- if your unit wants it to be leave you could request one day special.



And what para in the leave manual would he be entitled to special leave? Academic Advancement? Mission Travel?

Or maybe you meant he should ask for a short day....?


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## Drag (6 Oct 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Reg Force 'culture of entitlement'?



I can see what dapaterson is referring to...  I worked at a unit where civilian cuts, reserve cuts and internal RCAF PY "reallocation" effectively cut the establishment by 20% with no decrease in workload.  The pers most vocal about the need to cut back customer service hours, and services provided in general, were also the loudest to complain about limiting pers to only one base team per season and cutting back on Friday afternoon sliders. 

I've seen pers that between, intramural leagues, base teams and CISM, for months long stretches would be away playing sports as much as they would actually be working, and this would be in trades that provide critical every day services.  When does and job stop being a job and starts being a sports scholarship.


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## Sunnyns (6 Oct 2013)

What I have learned in my career, bosses change and with that new outlooks on things come into play.  You may one year have a nose to the grind boss that does not believe in giving you the day to play sports or other things.  Next you may get a boss that loves sports and encourages everyone to join teams and will give you time off for it.  Enjoy it if you get a boss that will give you time off and respect the fact that your new boss may not.  We've gotten ski weeks that did not require us to take time off and now where I'm at, if you want time off for a sport you have to take leave.  It's just the way of things, put in a request for special leave and if you get then great if not well.... take a day of leave if you really want to do it.


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## Wolseleydog (6 Oct 2013)

@PuckChaser, Quite so.  I meant short.


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## gmandnd007 (7 Oct 2013)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, as I understand the situation:  You want to take a day off work to play golf.  You are told that, in order to do so, you must take a day off work.
> 
> Somehow, in the Reg F culture of entitlement, this is offensive.  Imagine the indignity, being expected to go to work!
> 
> ...



Honestly! Your comment is very disrespectful and not helpful at all. If you think that having a day to support your mess, create camaraderie and create relationships is too much for a Reg Force person you should join the Reg force to see whats it's like to do this 24/7. This indignity is my job this isn't something I do for fun 1 night a week. 
I am forced to pay mess dues, I don't many civilian organizations that are forced to pay into a club. But if you are a member of the club it's nice to partake in club offerings. The mess is a military staple and is more than just a place to sit and drink beer. This is where we form friendships, camaraderie, discuss work matters and network etc. The mess functions within our working hours which is 24/7 and mess functions can take place anytime of the day. That being said there can be a mess function on your Anniversary, child's Birthday or other personal day that may be important to you but you are forced to attend the mess function. That's fine and part of our work environment and is very acceptable because we all support our messes financially and with our time.
So yes to pay $80 (some of that goes back to the mess) along with my monthly dues for a mess function which happened to be golf this time during working hours I don't think was asking for anything out of the norm for a soldier. 
Also we don't contact the media and complain that's something other groups do.


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## gmandnd007 (7 Oct 2013)

D3 said:
			
		

> I can see what dapaterson is referring to...  I worked at a unit where civilian cuts, reserve cuts and internal RCAF PY "reallocation" effectively cut the establishment by 20% with no decrease in workload.  The pers most vocal about the need to cut back customer service hours, and services provided in general, were also the loudest to complain about limiting pers to only one base team per season and cutting back on Friday afternoon sliders.
> 
> I've seen pers that between, intramural leagues, base teams and CISM, for months long stretches would be away playing sports as much as they would actually be working, and this would be in trades that provide critical every day services.  When does and job stop being a job and starts being a sports scholarship.



Obviously there has to be some happy medium. Some people are gifted atheletes and are granted alot of time to promote their unit or bases participation in some sports.
This is not the case here, this is a mess function. There is never a question when your told to return to work late at night for a mess meeting or dinner. People are charged for missing a mess event. The charge can cost quite a bit and there are some really good examples out there.


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## Journeyman (7 Oct 2013)

gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> People are charged for missing a mess event.


There's going to be summary trial if you don't go to a Mess golf game?  I'd take that charge.


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## Remius (7 Oct 2013)

I'm confused.  Is this a mandatory mess event?


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## Shamrock (7 Oct 2013)

gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> Honestly! Your comment is very disrespectful and not helpful at all. If you think that having a day to support your mess, create camaraderie and create relationships is too much for a Reg Force person you should join the Reg force to see whats it's like to do this 24/7. This indignity is my job this isn't something I do for fun 1 night a week.
> I am forced to pay mess dues, I don't many civilian organizations that are forced to pay into a club. But if you are a member of the club it's nice to partake in club offerings. The mess is a military staple and is more than just a place to sit and drink beer. This is where we form friendships, camaraderie, discuss work matters and network etc. The mess functions within our working hours which is 24/7 and mess functions can take place anytime of the day. That being said there can be a mess function on your Anniversary, child's Birthday or other personal day that may be important to you but you are forced to attend the mess function. That's fine and part of our work environment and is very acceptable because we all support our messes financially and with our time.
> So yes to pay $80 (some of that goes back to the mess) along with my monthly dues for a mess function which happened to be golf this time during working hours I don't think was asking for anything out of the norm for a soldier.
> Also we don't contact the media and complain that's something other groups do.



I'm afraid I agree with his sentiment.  

CF members are entitled to considerable periods of paid time off (over a month per year is annual leave).  It isn't until 27 years of service that a civilian employee gets as much leave as a member of the CF - and that's not including short and additional special.  Add to that the unlimited sick leave and very generous compassionate members are getting.  

However, this time off is fast becoming not good enough for the troops.  The feeling is that annual leave is sacrament - that no work, personal/professional development, or personal admin is to be conducted on these days.  To whit, I have seen requests for compassionate to attend a sick girlfriend.  I have seen soldiers offended they can't get a buckshee day to get their car fixed.  I have seen soldiers request days back because their boss called them on the phone for 5 minutes.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Oct 2013)

gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> Honestly! Your comment is very disrespectful and not helpful at all. If you think that having a day to support your mess, create camaraderie and create relationships is too much for a Reg Force person you should join the Reg force to see whats it's like to do this 24/7. This indignity is my job this isn't something I do for fun 1 night a week.
> I am forced to pay mess dues, I don't many civilian organizations that are forced to pay into a club. But if you are a member of the club it's nice to partake in club offerings. The mess is a military staple and is more than just a place to sit and drink beer. This is where we form friendships, camaraderie, discuss work matters and network etc. The mess functions within our working hours which is 24/7 and mess functions can take place anytime of the day. That being said there can be a mess function on your Anniversary, child's Birthday or other personal day that may be important to you but you are forced to attend the mess function. That's fine and part of our work environment and is very acceptable because we all support our messes financially and with our time.
> So yes to pay $80 (some of that goes back to the mess) along with my monthly dues for a mess function which happened to be golf this time during working hours I don't think was asking for anything out of the norm for a soldier.
> Also we don't contact the media and complain that's something other groups do.



Let's start off with your question.

There is absolutely no reason, or policy, for your employer to give you free time off, to participate in a sport\ mess event. Zip, nada. 

If they do, great. If not? Too bad, so sad.

Now to correct some of your other misinformation.

Reservists pay compulsory mess dues;

Reservists don't parade once a week as a hobby. It's a job they do, many on top of their regular 9-5 job. The majority do it out of commitment and a sense of duty;

Regarding the above, many Reservists freely use their vacations and time off to attend military events and courses, as opposed to asking for free time off from their job;

Many Reservists are far more invested in their Messes than the majority of their Reg counterparts; and,



> Also we don't contact the media and complain that's something other groups do.



I'm not sure what you're getting at or trying to imply, but there have been plenty of cases of Reg Force pers contacting the media when things don't go their way.

In short, check your facts before letting your biases make an idiot out of you.

Get a shorter pedestal. It won't hurt so much when you fall\ get pushed off it.

Grow a thicker skin.

Enjoy your golf game


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## George Wallace (7 Oct 2013)

gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> Honestly! Your comment is very disrespectful and not helpful at all.



How is it disrespectful?  



			
				gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> If you think that having a day to support your mess, create camaraderie and create relationships is too much for a Reg Force person you should join the Reg force to see whats it's like to do this 24/7. This indignity is my job this isn't something I do for fun 1 night a week.



Now that could be considered disrespectful.  It does look like you are falling into the category of person that does have a 'sense of entitlement' that was mentioned as a general statement above.



			
				gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> I am forced to pay mess dues, I don't many civilian organizations that are forced to pay into a club.



Wrong.  There are many civilian organizations that are forcing their members to pay union dues, although not the same as Mess dues, but still compulsory.  Many organizations and Associations also demand dues on a regular basis.  



			
				gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> But if you are a member of the club it's nice to partake in club offerings.



Yes.  Indeed it is nice to partake in club offerings.  The club (MESS) should also consider the timings of such events, so as not to conflict with WORK.



			
				gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> The mess is a military staple and is more than just a place to sit and drink beer. This is where we form friendships, camaraderie, discuss work matters and network etc. The mess functions within our working hours which is 24/7 and mess functions can take place anytime of the day. That being said there can be a mess function on your Anniversary, child's Birthday or other personal day that may be important to you but you are forced to attend the mess function. That's fine and part of our work environment and is very acceptable because we all support our messes financially and with our time.
> So yes to pay $80 (some of that goes back to the mess) along with my monthly dues for a mess function which happened to be golf this time during working hours I don't think was asking for anything out of the norm for a soldier.



Interesting.  Yes, the Mess is where we develop friendships, camaraderie and network which is a good thing.  The Mess does serve a purpose.  However, I don't know of any Mess that operates 24 and 7, nor a Mess Manager or Secretary who works those hours.   As Journeyman asked, is this a compulsory Mess event or just one of those Mess acquired Golf Passes from a local Golf and Country Club that is free for a Mess member to use when they have 'time off'?  If it is the latter, then I would think that dapaterson's comments may have been right on the button.  Sorry, but a sense of entitlement does not trump the Regulations.  

(Time Off: Shift worker, CTO, Annual/Special/Short Leave, weekend.)



			
				gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> Also we don't contact the media and complain that's something other groups do.



By using this forum, you have opened that door.


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## gcclarke (7 Oct 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> I'm confused.  Is this a mandatory mess event?



Pfft, no such thing as a mandatory mess event. They're not your chain of command. They can't order you to do a damned thing. 

The closest that can happen is your chain of command deciding to order everyone to go to a mess event, but then it really becomes a military duty that happens to coincide with a mess event.


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## Remius (7 Oct 2013)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Pfft, no such thing as a mandatory mess event. They're not your chain of command. They can't order you to do a damned thing.
> 
> The closest that can happen is your chain of command deciding to order everyone to go to a mess event, but then it really becomes a military duty that happens to coincide with a mess event.



Well some units have messes where the RSM and/or CO can indeed order you to attend.  I'm guessing it is more the Regimental messes.  You're splitting hairs though.  If a CO/RSM orders you to attend it is mandatory despite whatever definition you give it.


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## gcclarke (7 Oct 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Well some units have messes where the RSM and/or CO can indeed order you to attend.  I'm guessing it is more the Regimental messes.  You're splitting hairs though.  If a CO/RSM orders you to attend it is mandatory despite whatever definition you give it.



And in that event, it becomes a military duty. And if you're fulfilling a military duty, then you clearly can't be on leave. And you most certainly can't be expected to take leave for such an event.


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## gmandnd007 (7 Oct 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Let's start off with your question.
> 
> There is absolutely no reason, or policy, for your employer to give you free time off, to participate in a sport\ mess event. Zip, nada.
> 
> ...



Ok the first part of your statemnet is what I was looking for. After more than a decade in Pet and other postings its always been what we do. This is my first posting being the only military person surrounded my civies. 

You took alot of liberties with my statement about doing this for 3 hrs a night for fun. I'm not going to trash Reservists you seem to have alot of the facts on that.

Yup some do contact the media, what cases are you talking about? Serving members? hmm can't think of too many cases actually why not qoute a few. 
My skin is pretty thick, I've been doing this long enough. I asked a simple question and when people start spewing crap it deters from the origianal simple question.
And your final statement about a pedistal? The question was simple and to call someone an idiot shows me that maybe your a reservist with a beef and you wrote something that touched a nerve.

Thanks for 1 line of sense though but again is that fact or are you just assuming there is no policy that would dictate.


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## gmandnd007 (7 Oct 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> There's going to be summary trial if you don't go to a Mess golf game?  I'd take that charge.



Mess event or gathering not a golf day obviously unless ordered to go and that does happen.


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## gmandnd007 (7 Oct 2013)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> There's going to be summary trial if you don't go to a Mess golf game?  I'd take that charge.



Mess event or gathering not a golf day obviously unless ordered to go and that does happen.


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## Remius (7 Oct 2013)

GMAN:  here is one case where a a CF member went to the media (in a very dishonest way as well) when she didn't get what she felt was entitled to her...

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111346.0.html


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## gmandnd007 (7 Oct 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> How is it disrespectful?
> 
> Now that could be considered disrespectful.  It does look like you are falling into the category of person that does have a 'sense of entitlement' that was mentioned as a general statement above.
> 
> ...



Yup door opened. Unfortunately I only wanted an answer to a simple question. Yes No with some facts.  I can't find the answer and from what I've seen no one else has it either. It is an organized day of golf by the mess not a golf pass. No sense of entitlement here, the military doesn't owe me anything. 
The comment about join the reg force was intended for those that were making comments without ever having served as reg force


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## gmandnd007 (7 Oct 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> GMAN:  here is one case where a a CF member went to the media (in a very dishonest way as well) when she didn't get what she felt was entitled to her...
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/111346.0.html



Yes I totally agree with you "dishonest" and I wouldn't support her request either.  But still very rare and from young soldiers that don't have respect of the CoC. I'm asking about an event that is organized by the military. Thanks for the fact though.


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Oct 2013)

gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> Ok the first part of your statemnet is what I was looking for. After more than a decade in Pet and other postings its always been what we do. This is my first posting being the only military person surrounded my civies.
> 
> You took alot of liberties with my statement about doing this for 3 hrs a night for fun. I'm not going to trash Reservists you seem to have alot of the facts on that.
> 
> ...



I've actually been on both sides of the fence and both for a very long time. I don't choose sides.

I find it ironic that a person can make it to the rank of Sgt, where they are in charge of subordinates, yet have to come here for a simple explanation to even a simpler question. 

If the seeking of this minor query of yours was so vital to your existence, your Chief Clerk could have answered it in one sentence over the phone.

If you come here crying the blues, you'll just have to accept what comes your way.

Anyone expecting to get a solid, honest answer from faceless people on the internet, can only expect to get what they get.

Call your clerk.

The 19th hole always has a phone.


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## Remius (7 Oct 2013)

Well it boils down to whether or not this is a sanctioned event or not.  It seems it isn't.  So yes, annual leave required to attend a non-work related function.

The thing is, is that there are several occasions where it is sanctioned.  Like x-mas parties, summer sports days or whatever (team building exercises etc etc).

Your organisation likely has some of.

But this is a mess event.  A mess that likely isn't directly tied to your place of employment.  I'm guessing the NDHQ Sgts mess.  So they put on a golf event during the week you choose to go to or not. 

Your bosses are not being unreasonable, whether they are military or not.


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## gmandnd007 (7 Oct 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I've actually been on both sides of the fence and both for a very long time. I don't choose sides.
> 
> I find it ironic that a person can make it to the rank of Sgt, where they are in charge of subordinates, yet have to come here for a simple explanation to even a simpler question.
> 
> ...



such a minor question but you didn't have any ref either? 
Yup and there is beer there too, thanks.


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## gmandnd007 (7 Oct 2013)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Well it boils down to whether or not this is a sanctioned event or not.  It seems it isn't.  So yes, annual leave required to attend a non-work related function.
> 
> The thing is, is that there are several occasions where it is sanctioned.  Like x-mas parties, summer sports days or whatever (team building exercises etc etc).
> 
> ...



Thats where I was leaning I was just looking for a reference. Thanks


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Oct 2013)

gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> such a minor question but you didn't have any ref either?



You're a Sgt. Go find it yourself.

IF you had asked your CC, you'd have had your answer by now, or is it possible you have too much pride to ask.

To keep asking for a policy, re: _How does a soldier get free time off where no lawful need exists_, is impossible to fulfill if there isn't one.

Enjoy your quest, some have better things to do than spoon feed you.


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## gmandnd007 (8 Oct 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> You're a Sgt. Go find it yourself.
> 
> IF you had asked your CC, you'd have had your answer by now, or is it possible you have too much pride to ask.
> 
> ...


Recceguy you keep spewing without reading. You must be bored! My CoC is all civi you might have missed that in my very first post. You need to read and understand before you jump in and start flappin those chops. Yup a Sgt and even turned down my WO. Can you imagine. Maybe I was on here asking because pride has nothing to do with it and this is ARMY.CA with forums and question topics? Maybe I even thought there are intelligent people (most are) here that actually enjoy helping each other out. Not just jumping on people and trying to put them down to feel big. Almost all of the comments were good banter but yours, well you just keep pretending this is important and fulfills your life somehow. Childish comments like yours remind me of those little man syndrome guys, I think you know what I mean.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Oct 2013)

gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> Recceguy you keep spewing without reading. You must be bored! My CoC is all civi you might have missed that in my very first post. You need to read and understand before you jump in and start flappin those chops. Yup a Sgt and even turned down my WO. Can you imagine. Maybe I was on here asking because pride has nothing to do with it and this is ARMY.CA with forums and question topics? Maybe I even thought there are intelligent people (most are) here that actually enjoy helping each other out. Not just jumping on people and trying to put them down to feel big. Almost all of the comments were good banter but yours, well you just keep pretending this is important and fulfills your life somehow. Childish comments like yours remind me of those little man syndrome guys, I think you know what I mean.



OK. I'll spoonfeed you.....again.

Just because you tried to slip this in late at night.

Your not entitled to the time off.

There is no policy for bukshee time.

Now go whine to your civie cohorts about how hard the military treats you.


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## George Wallace (8 Oct 2013)

gmandnd007 said:
			
		

> ...... Yup a Sgt and even turned down my WO. ........



Your Civilian masters turned you down.... LIVE WITH IT.  

This topic is getting nowhere and spiralling down the drain.  

Before it is all flotsam, it is now LOCKED....End of story.


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