# Reserve Training for newly graduated nurses



## Titn (29 Mar 2005)

I will be graduating from BSc in Nursing in April.  I am really considering joining the reserves in Calgary.  
Newly graduated nurses take their RN exams at the beginning of June.  I was just wondering how that effects training.  I would want to do my training that summer, but how do I do that if I can't write my RN exam until June.  Is there training after that? If I do write the exam in June who knows when I will get my results.  Would I need my results before I start training?
Please let me know anything about this issue.


----------



## brin11 (30 Mar 2005)

Moving this to the CSS Medical forum where, hopefully, you can get some answers.


----------



## RatCatcher (31 Mar 2005)

Congrats on finishing your RNs, failed out of mine by choice. Call your nearest Med Unit or Recruiting center...they have all the info, but I beleive you would be able to start the training with the military.


----------



## Marti (31 Mar 2005)

Good to hear you're interested in joining, we could use another NO. If you're concerned about getting your training done this summer, you should consider starting your recruiting process soon. I'm not sure how things have been lately but a couple of years ago it was taking a few months to get through everything. By starting the process right away, they'll have a file opened on you and have part of your process will be completed by the time you got your results back. That should help get you sworn in a bit faster. I can't imagine it'd be difficult getting onto a course later on in the summer, there's usually a couple of BMQs running at that time and I'm pretty sure they still load officers onto these to meet the BOTC requirements. I'm also in Calgary, so if you have any general questions about the unit (weekly traning, exercises or anything) feel free to PM me.


----------



## DSB (4 Apr 2005)

All nurses, (student or working) are being pushed to become officers in my unit.   We had several NCMs that were nurses.   Some are making the switch and a couple of them I believe are gonna remain NCMs.   All the new applicants are not given much of a choice.   They are pretty much told to become officers.

DSB


----------



## PRL ER NO (5 Apr 2005)

Titn

Good Day,

Welcome to the nursing profession.   And Good Luck in June with your boards.  

If you want to be a "nurse" in the military, army, navy or airforce, you must join the ranks of the commission officers.  This goes back to the days of Nursing Sisters and the lack of respect they received.  The military of the day, WW1 or WW2, made all of the Nurses officers, most LT with some Capt and Majors.  Along with the officer ranks come the respect the nurses deserved.

As stated above, most NCO's who go to school, after being in for awhile, and complete there training in Nursing Schools are pressured into commissioning in the CFHS as a nurse, which there is a shortage.


----------



## Fraser.g (6 Apr 2005)

It is not just because of the lack of NOs in the forces that this is happening. It is a HUGE liability thing aswell. Please see the below edited email from a snr member of RX 2000 to another of flag rank for clarification.

Good morning;
> 
> 1. Can all plse provide an update as to how many of your currently
> serving Nurses (both those practising as well as those still under-going
> their nursing trg) who are enrolled as mbrs of the HS Res in occupations
> other than Nurse, are in the process of VOT/CFR etc to the Nurse
> occupation.
> 
> 2. (Someone high in the medical reserve world), can you plse send to your Units and get the info back to
> me.
> 
> 3. Plse find below e-mail traffic surrounding the liability issues of
> having civilian qualified nurses using that scope of practise while
> enrolled in the CF in an occupation other than Nurse:
> 
> The scope of manoeuvre here is getting more narrow by the day. You might
> want to info the COs of the coming decision that will see them HAVE TO
> move their Nurses fm Med Tech. To wait is sheer folly. They can still be
> employed but under their own scope of practice. We may need to adjust some
> taskings to reflect the nature of Res HSS.
> 
> 
> 
(Someone high in the PRL world)
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> (From someone in Ottawa to someone else in Hull)

> 
> I have some serious concerns from a Crown due diligence perspective, as
> well as from the Reserve Med Tech's personal liability perspective, with
> having a duly qualified and licensed civilian nurse engage in official
> procedures which exceed her Reserve Med Tech Scope of Practice.
> 
> First, the Crown exercises due diligence when it confines its health care
> providers to their well-considered respective Scopes of Practice.  Second,
> a Reserve Med Tech would not normally qualify for liability coverage for
> her negligent acts, errors and omissions, under the Treasury Board Policy
> on the Indemnification of and Legal Assistance for Crown Servants, were
> she to exceed her MOC/MOSID Scope of Practice, unless the course of duties
> and reasonable Departmental expectations applicable to a Med Tech with her
> civilian qualifications were officially extended or expanded by a CF H
> Svcs Gp-wide policy directive, not by a mere ad hoc, sui generis (i.e.,
> unique to her) decision in the field.
> 
> I guess my bottom line is that I'd be very loath to support this type of
> ad hoc, sui generis manipulation or modification of the Reserve Med Tech
> Scope of Practice on the basis that a single individual is qualified to
> perform it.
> 
> I hope this note is helpful.  I am available to discuss this matter at
> your convenience(s).      (2 on file)
> 
> 
Signed
(Someone big at RX 2000)



> *Protected: Solicitor-Client Privilege*
> 
> 4. Info to me by 17 Mar would be greatly appreciated.

If any one wants clarification or rquires further explination please PM me

GF


----------



## Titn (17 Apr 2005)

Thanks for your input.  I am now reassured that it will all come together. Thanks a lot!!


----------



## Fraser.g (21 May 2005)

Now that we are getting this influx of Nursing Officers into the reserve, has any one asked or received any information on scope of practice or integration of Nurses into the Reserve Fd Amb?

I know how I want to utilize them but what is the official statement?

Is there any differentiation betwen scope for CCNOs and GDNOs? If there is not, there should be.

GF


----------



## MED_BCMC (21 May 2005)

RN PRN,

I have asked and got nothing. It's to the point that my CO wants me to answer the question myself. 

Fun stuff.

BC MC


----------



## PRL ER NO (21 May 2005)

RN PRN and MED_BCMC

In reference to your question:  to the my knowledge to date, CCNO are trained like ICU nurse with a similar skill set, grouped with the CCNO's are ER nurse, myself being one, and the GDNO's are general duty nurses, I like they are employable are ward nurses or clinic type, I think.  The current plan is to change GDNO's to "Primary Care".  There are other nurses in the forces Mental Health, who must hold a CNA Mental Health certification, Operating Room nurses, Aero-medical.

All is changing in the world of nurses.  At the NENA conference in BC earlier this month, Major M St Pierre gave a presention on nurses and the CF, I did not hear it myself but one of my coworkers did and said the talk was great.


Hope this is informative.

Lt B Giles


contact for Maj St Pierre

Marc St-Pierre
Major
Divisional Manager Operations and Training
Senior Practice Leader CC/ER
CF HSC Ottawa


----------



## Fraser.g (21 May 2005)

Yes the CCNO categorization is for Critical care nurses, The question is: What is the scope for them?

I hold my ACLS,  PALS, and National cert for TNCC as I am sure you do. Does this mean that we can intubate, start intraosious perfusions, run full codes, the list goes on.

I for one want to know what JAG has to say about liability and insurance before I go off and do the things I am trained to do. 

I know where I stand in the ER where I work full time but in the army I do not. Honestly this means that I will err on the side of under care to save my ass rather than over treat and open my self up for lawsuit.

For all the pointy end guys and gals that are reading this thread, this means that you will not get the total amount care due to training that we have because DND will not sign off on what we know.

GF


----------



## Fraser.g (21 May 2005)

MED_BCMC said:
			
		

> RN PRN,
> 
> I have asked and got nothing. It's to the point that my CO wants me to answer the question myself.
> 
> ...



This is an example of a CO who does not know of what they speak.

Seek higher advice

GF


----------



## MED_BCMC (22 May 2005)

Thank you for the information, Brian. It'll help me out.

GF: I might suggest that one should not be commenting on what a Commanding Officer knows or does not know on a public form. 

BC MC


----------



## Fraser.g (22 May 2005)

MED BC-MC

I am sure you would agree that it is not up to a CO to come up with a scope of practice for each nurse under his or her command. It is up to the branch as a whole to make that decision.   
Were you asked to put togeather a brief for your CO on the subject or did they say, "Do what you feel you are comfortable with unitl there is clarification from higher".
If it is the former I would be more than willing to give any assistance I could If it is the later, be careful in any practice you do in the reserve. I know your CO as he is mine as well. I am confident when I say that he would never take that kind of liability on himself especially after my discussions with the DCO on just this topic.
We are heading down a very rocky road when each commander makes the clinical decision on what the medical scope the personnel working under them can or can not do.

For medics, as you know, the reserve units submit the qualifications to the area surgeons office for granting of scope, not the CO.
For the Docs, it is granted in their licence, for RNs it is not clear yet in the military.

By the way, I notice from your profile that you are still classified as an R48 HCA, as such you can not practice as an RN anyway so your licence as it does not come into play.

I speak in generalities not in specifics. I agree that for specifics this is not the forum. If you wish to get into specifics then you can PM me or you know how else to get in touch.

Modified by adding text to clarify points but no changes to intent were made.


----------



## MED_BCMC (22 May 2005)

I am not a Nurse, and therefore, do not have a license that would even need to considered. So therefore, I am / was not speaking about myself at all.

The way in which this whole matter was put to me came through from the Entire "nursing students as Nursing Officer" problem which my unit is experiencing. 

This entire project was put to me by CO because of the issue of recruiting nursing students as Nursing Officers in place of Med Techs. My CO wanted me to look at what a CF NO can / cannot do, and use this as a justification to Ottawa for either: why Nursing Students cannot be CF NOs, or how they can be better used in Res F Training. 

A little over my head, I'll admit. Any assistance with this matter would be appreciate.

BC MC


----------



## PRL ER NO (22 May 2005)

Not to beat a dead horse, my understanding is to be a "NURSING OFFICER", one must be a Nurse.

http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/media/pdf/57_en.pdf


Lt B Giles


----------



## MED_BCMC (23 May 2005)

PRL ER NO said:
			
		

> Not to beat a dead horse, my understanding is to be a "NURSING OFFICER", one must be a Nurse.
> 
> http://www.recruiting.forces.gc.ca/media/pdf/57_en.pdf
> 
> ...



I agree. But the direction we're getting out of Ottawa is that Nursing Students (no matter what year of study they are in) are to be Nursing Officers. Up until now, Recruiters were directed to bring these people in as Med Techs until they had completed their schooling and then they would be made NOs. Why the change? I don't know. 

BC MC


----------



## Fraser.g (23 May 2005)

True that they are to be recruited and maintained as Office Cadet Nursing officers. They can not function as NOs until they have their degree and are registered.

Now we have to figure out what to do with all these young officers until they can function in their trade.

Any ideas would be welcome.


----------



## MED_BCMC (23 May 2005)

Outside of the clinical side, all officers should have a good grasp of military administrative process. Having Unskilled Nursing Officers shadow a Platoon Commander, Log O or Admin O might give them a better view of how the military functions. 

I believe this is what we will end up doing in Winnipeg.


----------



## Fraser.g (23 May 2005)

Now here is an idea,

Lets look at the officer progression and time lines for R57s.

University year 1 
     Apply and get in to the CF

Summer 1
     BMQ/ ?SQ?
    and if they are really keen CAP R

University year 2
     Shadow the Pl Comd

Summer 2
     BCT Med

University year 3
     Be the Pl 2IC
     Staff Officer home study pack

Summer 3
     ICT Med 
     Reserve Staff course

University year 4
     Staff job

Graduate and commission

The problem lies in that they can not hold any rank or command position until they have finished University. Then they will automatically get their Capt 2 years after university.


----------

