# the order of ranks,



## militarygirl88 (19 Nov 2004)

i was wondering if someone could tell me the order of ranks, i just want to know becuase i am constently getting confused with them,  :-[, thanks, 
militarygirl88


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## annemarielyman (19 Nov 2004)

Here is a link to the pay scale on the recruiting website, hope it helps.

http://www.recruiting.dnd.ca/media/pdf/other/RegularForcePay.pdf


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Nov 2004)

There is also a list of duties and responsibilities related to the ranks at my site at http://www.canadiansoldiers.com - look for tables of ranks and responsibilities in the left hand frame.


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## Zauster (19 Nov 2004)

The army/armee site is best - pics with the names   http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/1_6_1.asp?FlashEnabled=-1


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Nov 2004)

Here is the direct link to my ranks page - scroll down to "post-unification"

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/ranks/responsibilities.htm

The pictures are a bit more clear than the ones on the Army site.


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## Goober (19 Nov 2004)

Great link Michael. Thanks.


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Nov 2004)

Hmm....I think I may have mixed up the Senior NCOs - given the earlier discussion in another thread about what constitutes a Senior and Junior NCO.

Can anyone provide the QR and O or CFAO that outlines exactly what constitutes a Senior NCO?  I thought it was a sergeant or warrant officer, some have said WOs are in a seperate class, but that leaves only one rank (sergeant) in the class of Senior NCO....


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## Michael OLeary (19 Nov 2004)

The current passage in QR&O, Artlcle 3.01 - Ranks and Designations of Rank, only refers to "officers and non-commissioned members." 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/ch003_e.asp#3.01

The definitions at Chapter 1 of QR&Os offer:

"non-commissioned member" means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces;" (militaire du rang)*

"non-commissioned officer" means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal;" (sous-officier)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol1/ch001_e.asp#1.02

There used to be a CFOA on ranks, but it was cancelled in 1987.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/003-02_e.asp

I also checked the 1908 edition of King's Regulations and Orders, which refers to "warrant officers, N.C.Os. and men of the army." There does not appear to be any mention of "senior NCO" as a description of any particular group of ranks.

It may be that the term "senior NCO" is an unofficial colloquialism used to refer to the sergeants and warrants (easier then saying "the Sergeants and Warrant Officers"), but that it has no official definition. Which would also help to explain why we see varying definitions offered, some, which you note, including or excluding the Warrant Officers.


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## Michael Dorosh (19 Nov 2004)

Michael OLeary said:
			
		

> It may be that the term "senior NCO" is an unofficial colloquialism used to refer to the sergeants and warrants (easier then saying "the Sergeants and Warrant Officers"), but that it has no official definition. Which would also help to explain why we see varying definitions offered, some, which you note, including or excluding the Warrant Officers.



Thank you for the detailed answer.  I suspected this as well (about colloquialism), but when certain Warrant Officers on this site swore up and down that Senior NCOs do not include those with the lofty title of Warrant Officer, well, who was I to argue with such a being....


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## militarygirl88 (20 Nov 2004)

thanks for the info, it helped, just didnt want to call the wrong officer by the wrong rank, when i go in for my interview next week,   
militarygirl88


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Nov 2004)

militarygirl88 said:
			
		

> thanks for the info, it helped, just didnt want to call the wrong officer by the wrong rank, when i go in for my interview next week,
> militarygirl88



Just say "sir".....  ??? ;D


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Nov 2004)

"gotcha" Michael..............Just say "sir".....  ...or Mame ;D


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## RCA (20 Nov 2004)

Sgt is the only SNCO rank in the army because all Warrant Officers are separate as actually at one time the were handed Warrents (like a commission scroll). I don't have a ref handy right know. 

And if in doubt, approach any CWO and ask him if he is a SNCO. I'm sure he'd be happy to supply you with the appropriate answer. ;D


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Nov 2004)

RCA said:
			
		

> Sgt is the only SNCO rank in the army because all Warrant Officers are separate as actually at one time the were handed Warrents (like a commission scroll). I don't have a ref handy right know.
> 
> And if in doubt, approach any CWO and ask him if he is a SNCO. I'm sure he'd be happy to supply you with the appropriate answer. ;D



No offence, but I am not interested in the _opinion_ of anyone, senior NCO or WO, I want to know what the actual facts are.  A reference is pretty much mandatory for that.  When you have one handy, I'd love to know what it says.  Thanks.

Incidentally, the only scrolls I am aware of for warrant officers are those that go to CWOs.

It used to be that Warrant Officers Class I were practically a subset of Officers, since they were permitted officers dress distinctions (Sam Browne, sword, etc.).  The other grades of WO were not permitted these.   

Page 53 of the War Dress Regulations for the Canadian Army (1943) list

Warrant Officers
Non Commissioned Officers
Other Ranks

However,the therm "Other Ranks"  can also be applied to all of the ranks from WO I to Private, depending on circumstance.  Perhaps this too is a colloquialism, however, I don't think so.  I would suggest some of these terms are not/have not been as set is stone as some may be willing to suggest (or argue) they have.


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## McG (20 Nov 2004)

I read a good article on this many years back.

 . . . I don't remember the answer.  I do recall that "Jr NCM" and "Sr NCM" were both considered technically imporper terms.  At the rank of Cpl one became an NCO.  Sgt was a Sr NCO.  But was a WO still considered a Sr NCO?    . . . I don't remember.

I might still have the reference here somewhere.  Probably in the box of old pubs, stuff, & misc.


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## RCA (20 Nov 2004)

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/intro_e.asp

From QR&Os Vol 1 -



> CHAPTER 1  INTRODUCTION AND DEFINITIONS
> 
> 1.02 â â€œ DEFINITIONS
> 
> non-commissioned officer" means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal; (sous-officier)


Therefore Warrant Offices are not considered NCOs. 

MCpl is not mentioned because:



> 3.08 â â€œ MASTER CORPORAL APPOINTMENT
> 
> (1) The Chief of the Defence Staff or such officer as he may designate may appoint a corporal as a master corporal.
> 
> ...



 There was a msg out clraifying there is no such term as Sr or Jr NCMs and I will try and dig it up


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## militarygirl88 (22 Nov 2004)

again thanks for the help... i will be sure to call them sir or ma'am, ;D 
militarygirl88


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## militarygirl88 (22 Nov 2004)

thanks for all the help, and info... i will be sure to call the interviewer either sir or ma'am, again thanks  ;D 
militarygirl88


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## Michael Dorosh (22 Nov 2004)

RCA said:
			
		

> http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/intro_e.asp
> 
> From QR&Os Vol 1 -
> 
> ...



Now THAT is something I can sink my teeth into, many thanks.


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## Michael OLeary (22 Nov 2004)

Another point of view from Col (Retd) Joe Aitchision:



> INFANTRY JOURNAL, No 14, Fall 1986
> 
> A HISTORY LESSON BY WAY OF BACKGROUND
> 
> ...


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## RCA (22 Nov 2004)

SNCO includes both Sgts and PO2s


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## Michael Dorosh (22 Nov 2004)

RCA said:
			
		

> SNCO includes both Sgts and PO2s



Source?


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## TCBF (26 Dec 2005)

If you look waaaaay back in the Canadian Forces Personnel Newsletter, there are letters from me complaining that the term 'Senior NCM' is incorrect, as NCM replaced the term 'Other Rank' in the 1980s, and there never was a term known as 'Senior Other Rank'.  NCM did NOT replace NCO. 

So, 'Duty NCM' is only accurate if the task can be performed by a Private and up, Cpl and up, it must be 'Duty NCO'.

Tom


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## Roy Harding (27 Dec 2005)

From QR&O, Vol I, Chap I, article 1.02  (available here - http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch001_e.asp#1.02 )

_"non-commissioned member" means any person, other than an officer, who is enrolled in, or who pursuant to law is attached or seconded otherwise than as an officer to, the Canadian Forces; (militaire du rang)*

"non-commissioned officer" means a member holding the rank of sergeant or corporal; (sous-officier)

....

"officer" means

(a) a person who holds Her Majesty’s commission in the Canadian Forces,

(b) a person who holds the rank of officer cadet in the Canadian Forces, and

(c) any person who pursuant to law is attached or seconded as an officer to the Canadian Forces;_


From QR&O Vol I, Chap 3 (available here: http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qr_o/vol1/ch003_e.asp#3.01 )

(Bilingual repeat comes from cut and paste operation)

_CHAPTER 3




CHAPITRE 3

RANK, SENIORITY, COMMAND AND PRECEDENCE
	  	

GRADE, ANCIENNETÉ, COMMANDEMENT ET PRÉSÉANCE

(Refer carefully to article 1.02 (Definitions) when reading every regulation in this chapter.)
	  	

(Avoir soin de se reporter à l’article 1.02 (Définitions) à propos de chaque règlement contenu dans le présent chapitre.)

Section 1 – Rank and Seniority
	  	

Section 1 – Grade et ancienneté

3.01 – RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK
	  	

3.01 – GRADES ET DÉSIGNATION DES GRADES

(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides:
	  	

(1) Les grades des officiers et militaires du rang doivent être conformes à ceux énumérés à la colonne I de l’annexe de la Loi sur la défense nationale, qui prescrit :

I
	  	

I

OFFICERS
	  	

OFFICIERS

1. General
	  	

1. Général

2. Lieutenant-General
	  	

2. Lieutenant-général

3. Major-General
	  	

3. Major-général

4. Brigadier-General
	  	

4. Brigadier-général

5. Colonel
	  	

5. Colonel

6. Lieutenant-Colonel
	  	

6. Lieutenant-colonel

7. Major
	  	

7. Major

8. Captain
	  	

8. Capitaine

9. Lieutenant
	  	

9. Lieutenant

10. Second Lieutenant
	  	

10. Sous-lieutenant

11. Officer Cadet
	  	

11. Élève-officier

II
	  	

II

NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS
	  	

MILITAIRES DU RANG

12. Chief Warrant Officer
	  	

12. Adjudant-chef

13. Master Warrant Officer
	  	

13. Adjudant-maître

14. Warrant Officer
	  	

14. Adjudant

15. Sergeant
	  	

15. Sergent

16. Corporal
	  	

16. Caporal

17. Private
	  	

17. Soldat
_

Does that help??


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## TCBF (27 Dec 2005)

Sort of, but it does not go into the sub groupings, which is the crux of the matter.  The Basic Recruit lesson plan went into Junior and Senior Officers etc, but also Junior NCO, Senior NCO, and Warrant Officers.

My point being, since we never called Sergeants "Senior Other Ranks" when Other Ranks was what you were if you weren't an officer, replacing the term 'Other Rank' with 'Non Commissioned Member' means it would be improper to call a Sergeant a 'Senior Non-Commissioned Member', if Senior other Rank was not a legitamate term.

All Parakeets are birds, but not all birds are Parakeets.

Tom


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## Insanehuman (10 Feb 2006)

How long does it take to become a sergent once you're a private soldier?


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## geo (10 Feb 2006)

for s





			
				Insanehuman said:
			
		

> How long does it take to become a sergent once you're a private soldier?


For some.... it takes forever......... and they still don't get it.


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## geo (10 Feb 2006)

Prior to unification the WO was known as a "staff sergeant"
the term Junior NCO covered both the Lance Corporal & Coproral
the term Senior NCO covered both the Sgt & Staff
Warrant Officer was a classification - coverning WO1 & WO2 (
for CWO & MWO respectively).... as still exists in the British army


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## dapaterson (10 Feb 2006)

Geo:
Ranks are more complex than most think.  The schedule to the NDA includes a wide array of old-style ranks in four columns.  QR&Os authorise the use of column 1, and, for personnel in Naval uniforms, column II.  But with a QR&O amendment we could be auth to use columns III and IV, which would let the Air Force have ranks like "Flight Lieutenant" and "Aricraftman", or even permit the use of Army ranks like "Warrant Officer, Class 1" or even "Sapper"  .

(Since, legally, we are not supposed to use Sapper, Gunner, Guardsman or other rank descriptors not auth under the QR&O)


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## geo (10 Feb 2006)

DAP
Yeah - was looking at the table before writing up the post - I know where you're coming from.

But, when you consider that, at one time you had three classes of ORs and that each class encompassed two ranks :
Junior NCO (LCpl / Cpl)
Senior NCO (Sgt / SSgt)
and WOs (WO2 / WO1)
it makes a little more sense..... but we've learned (and forgotten) a lot since Unification (1968).


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