# New PWT 1



## meni0n (14 Sep 2007)

Just shot the new PWT 1 and it was much harder than the old one. 

Prone with the gas mask is not very hard but the 5 round groupings instead of the 4 round 

are very hard and leave no room for error what so ever. Alot of people will be reshooting. Personally, 

I think they should have kept the 4 round groupings because people are human and not robots, 

there should be some room for error, especially since most units shoot once a year.


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## alexjbuck (14 Sep 2007)

That round will matter, someday, and there will be no room for error, then. So, why not reshoot and get some more practice, if you can't get it the first time?


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## meni0n (14 Sep 2007)

I disagree, there should be left some room for error as people are human and not everyone is a marksman. And that "someday", you will use more than 5 rounds and shoot much different than on a range.


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## Zell_Dietrich (14 Sep 2007)

I do have to agree... but this is the first I've heard of these new requirements.  I just did and qualified PWT I II & III this summer.


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## Fishbone Jones (14 Sep 2007)

Zeroing is done by shooting groupings of five shots. Always has been. This is where you zero your sights to your weapon and establish MPI. Various serials will be done with differing amounts of shots, depending on range, type of target and shooting position. Ask your CoC for a copy of the 'Shoot to Live' pam. Things will make sense to you after you read that.


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## meni0n (14 Sep 2007)

recceguy,

the old PWT 1, they took the best 4 shot grouping on target for scoring, so if you made a error and one of your shots went somewhere else, you didn't lose points. 

The PWT 1 we shot, if that happend, you got a 0 because that one shot screws your grouping.


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## Roy Harding (14 Sep 2007)

meni0n said:
			
		

> recceguy,
> 
> If that was for me, the old PWT 1, they took the best 4 shot grouping on target for scoring, so if you made a error and one of your shots went somewhere else, you didn't lose points.
> 
> The PWT 1 we shot, if that happend, you got a 0 because that one shot screws your grouping.



Am I to understand that groupings are "scored"?  Groupings are for bringing your sights into alignment - not for scoring.  recceguy is right - groupings are five round serials.  If you can't make an identifiable centre of mass in five rounds, you need more practice.

Having said that - I hear the pain regarding being on the range "once a year".  This is terrible - I had hoped that the Army was past that particular scenario.  I thought this was out the window now, seeing as how we're at war and all.

I'm not being a smartass - I'm genuinely disappointed that some folks only get to the range once a year or so.



Roy


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## meni0n (14 Sep 2007)

Maybe I am using the wrong term.

When shooting the PWT 1, your scoring depends on how far each hit is from each other, so you shoot 5 rounds 

and then see if for example you shot from the prone you have a  15mm radius of where the rounds hit. 

Under the old rules, if you had 4 rounds close enough together you got either 5 or 3 points depending how far they were from each other. 

But now with the new rules we used they look how far from each other are all 5 shots so if you made a beathing mistake with 1 round, 

you would most likely get a 0 score because the radius is just too big.


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## Rowshambow (14 Sep 2007)

Here is the breakdown that we have been using for about 2 years, give or take

Prone--5 rnd grouping--15cm or less 5 points
                                   15-20cm 3 points anything above 20 cm is 0 pnts

Stiiting--5 rnd grouping--20cm or less 5 pnts
                                   20-22.5 cm 3 points, anything above 22.5, is 0 pnts

kneeling--5 rnds grouping--22.5cm or less 5 pnts
                                        22.5cm - 27.5cm 3 pnts, anything above that is 0 pnts

Prone (again)-- same as 1st prone

Standing--5 rnds grouping--45cm or less 5 points
                                        45cm to 50cm 3 points, anything above is 0 pnts

That is the way the ATS ranges are set, that is also why there was quite a few problems with people passing, as they were used of the older pwt, where if you pulled a shot it was ok! 
As for the radius being to big, cmon I am a brutal shot with the C8 and can pass, so if you have a scope it should be a piece of pie! Also mark out a 15cm radius, its actually quite a big area! and the standing, 45cm thats like almost half a meter, if you can't have 5 rnds in there, maybe you should be in the salvation army! Breathing, thats why it is taught, so you can control it and shoot properly, they don't teach it just to hear themselves talk!
sorry to be blunt, but now your friends life could depend on the "1" round that missed its target!


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## BDTyre (18 Sep 2007)

I did really well on the old PWT 1 on BMQ and again last month.  But when I did it on the SAT range, it just defeated me.  When did this new PWT 1 come into effect?


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## childs56 (19 Sep 2007)

A grouping is a number of bullet with in an area last I knew. 

The 15cm grouping is just that a grouping with in 15cm.

Zeroing is the series of 5 Rd grouping that you would carry out prior to shooting for points. 

I still remember shooting in Cold Lake the new rules. I failed, my groups were all good, but because the groups were off the target I failed. Yes we shot the new 5 rd counts rule. The expert instructor adjusted the sights and would not listen to me about they were doing them wrong. ( I assumed we were shooting groupings so I kept my same aim)  
One problem with that system from what I can see. If every round hits the target then why shouldnt you get scoring for that. 
If the round doesnt hit the target you wouldnt get a point. To me hitting a target would be providing effective fire on the target. 

If a soldier fires 30 rds and hits 25 of those rounds within the 15cm area, and the remainder of the rounds are still on target then they should pass. 

A few years ago I was down in Yakima Training Center shooting at their pop up range.  I did very well, but when it came to grouping shots I am not the best. Artillery Area target.
A few of the guys who were great shots at the paper range didnt fair to well on the pop targets. Why? not use to the instinctive shooting, 

Do I think one should have to atain groupings to pass a test yes. But should they be penilized if they do not get all five bullts with in a 15 cm area, no as long as all five rds are on target. 

Massive failures with the new system where I was. Almost a 60% failure rate. Now mind you most of us were Airforce weenies, but a few of the once proud Infanters did not pass the new standard, due to the 5 rd group requirment, they had to go back for their second time.

Grouping, MPI, SIGHTING IN THE RIFLE all great terms to learn and live by.


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## MG34 (2 Oct 2007)

OMFG quit you whining! A PWT 1 is a joke, if you cannot pass it there are 2 things to blame...You and whoever trained you, its not about how many rounds fired in a year or range time it's about mastering the fundmentals of marksmanship. IF YOU CANNOT HOLD A WEAPON STEADY ENOUGH TO GET 5 ROUNDS INTO A 6 INCH CIRCLE AT 100M, IT'S A PERSONAL PROBLEM, not a problem with the test or the standards. How much time is spent in dry firing or reviewing the fundamentals, or even practicing the firing positions??


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## davidk (2 Oct 2007)

When I was on BMQ back in '05, they already had something going like this, on the automated range at Farnham. On my DP1 later that year, we did it again, in Valcartier, but on a conventional range, and it was best four out of five. Guess this was in the works for a while now.


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## Armymedic (2 Oct 2007)

meni0n said:
			
		

> Prone with the gas mask is not very hard but the 5 round groupings instead of the 4 round



I know th etitle of the thread is "New PWT 1" but since when is shooting with a gas mask part of a PWT 1 (or any part of the PWT)?



			
				MG34 said:
			
		

> A PWT 1 is a joke, if you cannot pass it there are 2 things to blame...You and whoever trained you,



+1...I used to get upset if I did not shoot a 60/60, and as a medic, I certianly did not get to shoot more than once or twice a yr.


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## DirtyDog (2 Oct 2007)

MG34 said:
			
		

> OMFG quit you whining! A PWT 1 is a joke, if you cannot pass it there are 2 things to blame...You and whoever trained you, its not about how many rounds fired in a year or range time it's about mastering the fundmentals of marksmanship. IF YOU CANNOT HOLD A WEAPON STEADY ENOUGH TO GET 5 ROUNDS INTO A 6 INCH CIRCLE AT 100M, IT'S A PERSONAL PROBLEM, not a problem with the test or the standards. How much time is spent in dry firing or reviewing the fundamentals, or even practicing the firing positions??





I mean, seriously......


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## MG34 (2 Oct 2007)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> I know th etitle of the thread is "New PWT 1" but since when is shooting with a gas mask part of a PWT 1 (or any part of the PWT)?
> 
> +1...I used to get upset if I did not shoot a 60/60, and as a medic, I certianly did not get to shoot more than once or twice a yr.



The "gas mask "shoot is actually supposed to be done in MOPP 4


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## Armymedic (2 Oct 2007)

as part of which PWT?


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## Zell_Dietrich (10 Oct 2007)

We just did PWT 1 & 2 at my unit. 

PWT 1  yes all 5 shots count,  not best 4 of 5.  
The pass mark used to be 17/25,  it is now 15/25


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## medaid (10 Oct 2007)

I did my range ex back in Sep. One thing that was kind of strange was that instead of building up to the level you were supposed to be proficient at, they went straight into the level you were supposed to be at. Another words, we used to build it up, if you were shooting PWT3 you did 1, 2 then 3. Now, they go straight into 3. I didn't see how it was harder to shoot at all. I still scored a badge (if I was allowed to wear one...) 

We didn't do the gas mask shoot though, does this mean we're still shooting the old PWT?


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## Franko (10 Oct 2007)

St. Micheals Medical Team said:
			
		

> as part of which PWT?



PWT 1...we just did it as well in late August. A five round serial....not very difficult to do, just awkward. 

Regards


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## TCBF (10 Oct 2007)

You should consult B-GL-382-001/FP-001 CANADIAN FORCES OPERATIONAL SHOOTING PROGRAM (ENGLISH), released 2007-04-01.

It explains all of the Range Practices and PWTs for all Individual and Crew Served weapons.


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## slowmode (13 Oct 2007)

Well You have to remember a rifle is a soldiers main tool, a soldier has to know how to use it. I did the new PWT 1 and had no problems with it, the groupings arent to bad considering your sitting and relaxing. As long as you follow your Rules of Marksmanship no one should have any problems passing this


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