# Here’s a weird one: Purple trades, do you have to wear your element?



## Somerandomfellow (4 Jan 2019)

If you’re purple trade and your dress isn’t for operational purposes, can you wear another element’s dress voluntarily? 

Example:

If you’re Army or Air Force and you’re posted to a ship, you have to wear the Naval Combats. If you’re at a Naval unit that does not go to sea, such as a base, you can wear your CadPat...

If you’re Navy and you have to do field exercises you then must wear CadPat but if you’re at an Army or Air Force base you can wear NCDs.


My question is:

If you’re a purple trade but are in th Naval element, can you choose to wear CadPat if it doesn’t really matter operationally?

I’m purple and I’m Navy but I hate NCDs to work in, they’re not made for physical activity. I’m doing all sorts of stuff and my shirts always coming out, my black pants always have mud on them, I’m a complete travesty!

I want to wear CadPat to make my job/life easier - and do. BUT I get some strange looks when I walk around with that black, non-armoured beret on whilst in CadPat. 

Are there any publications  about the Elements and their dress? It’s quite frustrating being less comfortable than your comrade just because of your element. 

Elementasim is what I’m calling it.


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## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2019)

Somerandomfellow said:
			
		

> If you’re purple trade and your dress isn’t for operational purposes, can you wear another element’s dress voluntarily?
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...



No.  Your CoC decides what your dress of the day is, not you.


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## kratz (4 Jan 2019)

Adding to what Halifax Tar mentioned, CANFORGEN 189/09 - Wearing of Naval Combat Dress has not been rescinded.


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## Halifax Tar (4 Jan 2019)

kratz said:
			
		

> Adding to what Halifax Tar mentioned, CANFORGEN 189/09 - Wearing of Naval Combat Dress has not been rescinded.



Like I said as your CoC decides/dictates.


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## PuckChaser (4 Jan 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Like I said as your CoC decides/dictates.



Unless you belong to an non-field Army unit as a RCN purple trade where your CoC suddenly has no ability to decide/dictate it because the RCN wanted to micromanage dress of those purple trades for whom they do not have in their sphere of influence.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (4 Jan 2019)

Actually, Puckchaser, I strongly suspect that the CANFORGEN was issued much more at NDHQ's intimation as a mean to restrain the ARMY's tendencies to try and micromanage the purple trades under their sphere of influence by making them all look like Army  -with the next step no doubt being that they would stop being referred to by their proper naval or Air force rank.

In my experience, it has always been the ARMY that has tried to make everything look Army, rather than the other way around.

(I know: Army  people have a limited number of brain cells, thus remembering everybody else's ranks, designation, element, etc. etc. is too much of a call upon this limited resource.  ;D).


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## PuckChaser (4 Jan 2019)

Should have just ordered all RCN pers to wear a giant reflective belt that said "NAVY/MARINE" on it, because heaven forbid a civvie ask if you're in the Army as a colloquialism for being in the military.


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## dimsum (4 Jan 2019)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> (I know: Army  people have a limited number of brain cells, thus remembering everybody else's ranks, designation, element, etc. etc. is too much of a call upon this limited resource.  ;D).



I don't believe I'm about to defend the Army *sigh*, but they need those brain cells to remember all of the various Regimental/Corps/Branch idiosyncracies.  Just the various names for Private, depending on the Regt/trade, confuse me enough - but then again I'm just a simple ex-Navy RCAF person


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## FJAG (4 Jan 2019)

I can't speak for every purple trade, but when I transferred from being an infantry reservist (having previously transferred to the infantry from the regular force artillery) to the legal branch I was "allocated" to wear the Air Force uniform. I made a simple request to my new chain of command stating my preference to remain Army. That was quickly granted.

From there on I was issued all Army uniforms and equipment including all personal field uniforms and web gear as any other soldier would get. There are scales of issue for these things that the system just kicks in.

There is really no flexibility beyond that. Once you are allocated to an environment that's it you can't just choose to add on things. On the other hand, if you are designated for a specific unit or mission or task which require additional environmental gear then it will be issued as part of the tasking.

 :cheers:


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## Halifax Tar (5 Jan 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I can't speak for every purple trade, but when I transferred from being an infantry reservist (having previously transferred to the infantry from the regular force artillery) to the legal branch I was "allocated" to wear the Air Force uniform. I made a simple request to my new chain of command stating my preference to remain Army. That was quickly granted.
> 
> From there on I was issued all Army uniforms and equipment including all personal field uniforms and web gear as any other soldier would get. There are scales of issue for these things that the system just kicks in.
> 
> ...



Its not so easy for NCMs.  It all depends on your employment history/experience, sometimes family background (was dad Army) and it also has to do with what percentage of people are already wearing RCN, CA and RCAF DEU in your trade, believe it or not we actually have designated levels for each uniform.  The Army is always overfull and the RCN is always short. 



			
				PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Unless you belong to an non-field Army unit as a RCN purple trade where your CoC suddenly has no ability to decide/dictate it because the RCN wanted to micromanage dress of those purple trades for whom they do not have in their sphere of influence.



Just a clarification that was a CANFORGEN that was promulgated by the VCDS not CRCN through NAVGEN.  This was direction from the very top, sounds to me like bigger picture CoC is deciding.  I can tell you it defiantly was not adhered too across the board by Army units, personal experience. 



			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> I don't believe I'm about to defend the Army *sigh*, but they need those brain cells to remember all of the various Regimental/Corps/Branch idiosyncracies.  Just the various names for Private, depending on the Regt/trade, confuse me enough - but then again I'm just a simple ex-Navy RCAF person



Exactly.


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## Journeyman (5 Jan 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I made a simple request to my new chain of command stating my preference to remain Army. That was quickly granted.


Well, since the question has been answered and we're just swapping war stories now.....    [

I changed trades/classifications a few times (short attention span, I guess).  I went from an Air Force job to a purple one, and was told I'd keep the blue costume.  Many many emails and letters later, explaining why I should be Army had no effect.  Shortly before graduation, I was in the mess with one of the Branch tribal elders; I took the opportunity to plead my case and share my logic.  Within a week, a message came back in which the Colonel stated "In my 35 years in the military, I have NEVER been poked in the chest by someone in the Air Force.  It is obvious that [me] is Army;  uniform change authorized."


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## FJAG (5 Jan 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> . . .   It all depends on your employment history/experience, sometimes family background (was dad Army) and . . .



 ;D That made me smile. The letter I wrote to the JAG to stay army included words to the effect that ". . . while my father had been a German paratrooper during the war, which was then a branch of the German air force, and my father in law fought for the allies as a pilot and my brother in law is currently a pilot, I, nonetheless with twenty years service in the army, wish to remain in the army . . ."

As I said, that worked fairly quickly. Maybe it simply means that the legal branch does have a sense of humour.

 :cheers:


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## Halifax Tar (5 Jan 2019)

FJAG said:
			
		

> ;D That made me smile. The letter I wrote to the JAG to stay army included words to the effect that ". . . while my father had been a German paratrooper during the war, which was then a branch of the German air force, and my father in law fought for the allies as a pilot and my brother in law is currently a pilot, I, nonetheless with twenty years service in the army, wish to remain in the army . . ."
> 
> As I said, that worked fairly quickly. Maybe it simply means that the legal branch does have a sense of humour.
> 
> :cheers:



Its funny but I have seen it numerous time.  "My Dad was Army and my Grandad was Army so I would like wear the Army DEU".  Saw it all the time teaching QL3s.  

Best memo was one requesting a posting back to the east coast.  It was originally 1 line that read word for word"

"I'd likes to go back to the east coast please" 

Made me giggle lol


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Jan 2019)

> THIS INITIATIVE HAS BEEN A TREMENDOUS SUCCESS IN HELPING THE CF AS WHOLE TO CONNECT WITH CANADIANS. AT THE SAME TIME, HOWEVER, THE WEARING OF CADPAT HAS MADE THE NAVY LESS VISIBLE TO THE PUBLIC. CANADIANS MUST SEE MORE OF THEIR NAVY IF WE ARE TO SUPPORT THE VERY SUBSTANTIAL EFFORTS NOW UNDERWAY ACROSS THE DND / CF TO REVERSE THE TRENDS OF THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS AND ATTRACT CANADIANS TO A CAREER IN THE NAVY. MOREOVER, AS THE NAVY PREPARES TO CELEBRATE 100 YEARS OF SERVICE TO CANADA NEXT YEAR, IT IS TIMELY THAT THE CF VISIBLY DEMONSTRATES ITS SUPPORT FOR OUR MEN AND WOMEN AT SEA



Isn't there more than a few comments in the NCD threads on the forum that the public doesn't even see the NCDs and recognize Navy DEU people as "Navy" in them, they think they are security guards and the like?  The new NCDs scream "identity issues" to me, with WAY to much "I'm in the Navy!" stuff on the badges and ball hats.  Just my opinion...

Personally, I think this is probably one of the silliest orders I've seen come out in recent years.  I've been standing in public places before in a flight suit, jacket and a wedge and heard some lady say to her children "yes, he is an army man" and looked over and smiled and waved.  Joe and Jane Public have no more understanding of the differences between soldiers, sailors and airmen than they do between APCs, tanks, frigates and destroyers.

If the higher CofC is relying on Navy DEU people to 'represent the Navy' to garner support and interest in Navy careers...wow, I think that is a blank round in the chamber.  my  :2c:




> ACCORDINGLY, CF MEMBERS ENTITLED TO THE NAVAL DISTINCTIVE ENVIRONMENTAL UNIFORM (DEU) ARE HEREBY DIRECTED TO WEAR NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) IN LIEU OF CADPAT, WHERE THE CADPAT IS PERMITTED BY COMDS AND CO S AS THE DRESS OF THE DAY. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CANFORGEN ARE PERMITTED FOR VALID OPERATIONAL REASONS ONLY, INCL EMPL IN ACTUAL FIELD OPS, FIELD TRG ACTIVITIES OR OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS



So, why is the same not true for Army and Air DEU personnel posted to RCN billets?  I've seen many folks walking around with NCDs and Army slip-ons;  IMO one of the stupidest looking things allowed in the various dress regs.  

I've also heard of shortages of NCDs for folks who actually needed them for sailing...makes these policies look even stupider and the people making them even more detached from the real world (operational units of the CAF).


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## OldTanker (5 Jan 2019)

When we were issued the new environmental uniforms circa 1986 I noticed our admin clerk (I was at a CF school at the time) had chosen the Air Force uniform. Not being aware of any particular reason why she would do so (this was her first posting) I asked her why she chose the Air Force uniform. "Because it matches my eyes" she said. Probably as good a rationale as I've heard and more logical than some others.


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## medicineman (5 Jan 2019)

One of the issues at hand with visibility is that a lot of Navy folks (at least when I was in Victoria up til about 7 years ago), wore civvies to Dockyard and changed on the ship.  I'd often have my uniforms in my sick bay locker at the FDU and make a decision of what to wear (CADPAT, NCD's or coveralls...all with Army epaulettes on  8) ) when I got in, based on what I thought I'd be doing that day or if I'd have to be going away from the office to the Base side of the water.  I even managed to snag some old Army work dress slip ons that were forest green to go on my coveralls and NCD's, just to confuse/upset the lifer fish heads more (well, OK, only a couple of them).

MM


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## Halifax Tar (5 Jan 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Isn't there more than a few comments in the NCD threads on the forum that the public doesn't even see the NCDs and recognize Navy DEU people as "Navy" in them, they think they are security guards and the like?  The new NCDs scream "identity issues" to me, with WAY to much "I'm in the Navy!" stuff on the badges and ball hats.  Just my opinion...
> 
> Personally, I think this is probably one of the silliest orders I've seen come out in recent years.  I've been standing in public places before in a flight suit, jacket and a wedge and heard some lady say to her children "yes, he is an army man" and looked over and smiled and waved.  Joe and Jane Public have no more understanding of the differences between soldiers, sailors and airmen than they do between APCs, tanks, frigates and destroyers.
> 
> ...



These would be people who are posted into sea going billets which dictate that NCDs are the required dress.  Fire retardant and all that.  Having said that I agree the mix of NCDs with CA and RCAF slip-ons looks silly.  

A way to fix all this is to stop posting people to positions out of their elements, and roll the MH Sqns back into the RCN.  Those changes shouldn't cause too much fuss now eh ? 

Keep in mind the current iteration of NCDs is nearing the end of its life and is being replaces soon with the "New Style" more "combats" looking version.  Still with the 10 pieces of flair though


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Jan 2019)

Ref "NCDs for people posted to HMCSs";  why do the AirDet technicians wear arid CADPAT?  Why do cooks wear whites and not NCDs?  This is where the 'logic' of the whole NCDs get lost of me.  When we take techs or PAX, and/or riders (I've had some missions with NWOs along as riders), they don't wear flight suits.

 :dunno:


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## FSTO (5 Jan 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Isn't there more than a few comments in the NCD threads on the forum that the public doesn't even see the NCDs and recognize Navy DEU people as "Navy" in them, they think they are security guards and the like?  The new NCDs scream "identity issues" to me, with WAY to much "I'm in the Navy!" stuff on the badges and ball hats.  Just my opinion...
> 
> Personally, I think this is probably one of the silliest orders I've seen come out in recent years.  I've been standing in public places before in a flight suit, jacket and a wedge and heard some lady say to her children "yes, he is an army man" and looked over and smiled and waved.  Joe and Jane Public have no more understanding of the differences between soldiers, sailors and airmen than they do between APCs, tanks, frigates and destroyers.
> 
> ...



The only uniform that screams "SAILOR" is the Commonwealth Square Rig, USN "Cracker Jack" or some intonation that most navies around the world use for their sailors below the PO1 rank. 
Since Canada is awash in GBA+ and a decided hatred towards visual differences between the rates, C&PO's and Officers we are saddled with a version of Chicom Cultural Revolution sameness in our naval uniforms that still confuses the general public who think we are commissionaires or fifth rate security guards. ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Jan 2019)

Is the belief in the RCN, then, that the 'new' navy operational dress will be that much more of an identifier to folks who thing 'anyone in green is army'?  Maybe it's me, but the only really noticeable difference in this pic is the ball hat that says "NAVY" on it...of course, most people who wear a Navy DEU won't wear it, they'll be in the ship's ball hat or whatever their shore unit is, no?

https://www.facebook.com/CRCN.CMRC/photos/a.1804757869775444/1927599200824643/?type=3&theater


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## FSTO (5 Jan 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Is the belief in the RCN, then, that the 'new' navy operational dress will be that much more of an identifier to folks who thing 'anyone in green is army'?  Maybe it's me, but the only really noticeable difference in this pic is the ball hat that says "NAVY" on it...of course, most people who wear a Navy DEU won't wear it, they'll be in the ship's ball hat or whatever their shore unit is, no?
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/CRCN.CMRC/photos/a.1804757869775444/1927599200824643/?type=3&theater



My NCD's are somewhere in my storage area only to be pulled out when I am actually going to go to sea. Since I'm now working on an RCAF led project in the NCR the chances of anyone seeing me in NCD's are slim and none.


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## Halifax Tar (5 Jan 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Ref "NCDs for people posted to HMCSs";  why do the AirDet technicians wear arid CADPAT?  Why do cooks wear whites and not NCDs?  This is where the 'logic' of the whole NCDs get lost of me.  When we take techs or PAX, and/or riders (I've had some missions with NWOs along as riders), they don't wear flight suits.
> 
> :dunno:



Air dets bewilder me.  They are supposed to be issued NCDs but for some reason they don't have to wear them, not sure who sets this standard but it sounds to be like cox'ns are being trumped somewhere.  The arid cadpat thing is simply LCF.  Nothing more nothing less.  Are your PAX issued flight suits?  We have sailed with PAX/riders in CADPAT.  Not a huge deal, they PAX/riders not crew, short timers. 

Cooks whites are cheaper than NCDs which they would burn through.  Cooks also get NCDs and are to wear them when not on duty in the galley.


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## dimsum (5 Jan 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Air dets bewilder me.  They are supposed to be issued NCDs but for some reason they don't have to wear them, not sure who sets this standard but it sounds to be like cox'ns are being trumped somewhere.  The arid cadpat thing is simply LCF.  Nothing more nothing less.  Are your PAX issued flight suits?  We have sailed with PAX/riders in CADPAT.  Not a huge deal, they PAX/riders not crew, short timers.
> 
> Cooks whites are cheaper than NCDs which they would burn through.  Cooks also get NCDs and are to wear them when not on duty in the galley.



From CAF pics, the current VDQ aircrew looks like they're wearing either the AR flight suit or the OTW shirts (the half-zip, first issued in Afg), and the techs look like they're wearing a different cut of CADPAT than the standard (ranks on the shoulders are the first thing I noticed).  It's probably a fire-resistant version.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Jan 2019)

The techs do get issued some sort of CADPAT "2 piece coverall" (not sure what the actual name is).  They're the ones that have the legs that zip off at the knees, etc.

I'd hazard a _guess_ that 1 Cdn Air Div wants tech's in AF approved anti-static, anti-"other stuff" kit for working on aircraft?   I'm not a Airworthiness guru, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the Technical or Operational AW "stuff".  :dunno:


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## Good2Golf (5 Jan 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Cooks whites are cheaper than NCDs which they would burn through.



???

I always figured NCDs were more FR than cooks’ whites...

;D


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## Halifax Tar (5 Jan 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> I always figured NCDs were more FR than cooks’ whites...
> 
> ;D



lol well played.


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## dimsum (5 Jan 2019)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The techs do get issued some sort of CADPAT "2 piece coverall" (not sure what the actual name is).  They're the ones that have the legs that zip off at the knees, etc.
> 
> I'd hazard a _guess_ that 1 Cdn Air Div wants tech's in AF approved anti-static, anti-"other stuff" kit for working on aircraft?   :dunno:



The techs used to wear the old blue flight suits/coveralls.


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## Good2Golf (5 Jan 2019)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> lol well played.



Good thing I didn’t shamelessness plug my naval hero CPO Casey Rybek...who often did his best work in cooks’ whites...


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## SeaKingTacco (5 Jan 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The techs used to wear the old blue flight suits/coveralls.



Admittedly, it has been awhile since I sailed, however:

The reason the air det didn't wear NCDs was strictly to make the Navy angry... 

Actually, the reasons were (are?): 

NCDs had buttons everywhere. That is a FOD hazard. They are hot. The hangar is not air conditioned (thanks, Navy). They soak up grease. They are not (were not?) anti-static, IAW with airworthiness requirements.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Jan 2019)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Good thing I didn’t shamelessness plug my naval hero CPO Casey Rybek...who often did his best work in cooks’ whites...



I have to agree;  that was a *great* documentary.


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## SupersonicMax (5 Jan 2019)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> From CAF pics, the current VDQ aircrew looks like they're wearing either the AR flight suit or the OTW shirts (the half-zip, first issued in Afg), and the techs look like they're wearing a different cut of CADPAT than the standard (ranks on the shoulders are the first thing I noticed).  It's probably a fire-resistant version.



They could be faded OD flight suits.  3 of my 4 are in a sad state of decoloration (ie: almost tan) and there are none in supply.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Jan 2019)

They are in arid's on the VDQ Det.  Hmmm...looks like the RCAF Commander has a nice, new style flight suit on.  How odd!     I thought there wasn't any in the system.   

https://www.facebook.com/RCAF.ARC/photos/pcb.10155745199136237/10155745182926237/?type=3&theater


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## dimsum (5 Jan 2019)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> They could be faded OD flight suits.  3 of my 4 are in a sad state of decoloration (ie: almost tan) and there are none in supply.



Nah, it's the same pic that EITS has posted under yours.  Definitely new Arid stuff, and 2-piece (looks very similar to the CADPAT cut except the rank position).


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## Pusser (9 Jan 2019)

Back to the original question, the chain of command should be sensible enough to have personnel wearing whatever is appropriate to the occasion.  When I'm crawling around ships, I wear NCDs.  When I'm in the field (including weapons qualifications), I wear CADPAT and when I'm working in an air-conditioned office, I wear service dress.  It really shouldn't be that complicated.


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## Somerandomfellow (2 Apr 2019)

Ughhh NCD uniforms are complete trash. (My opinion only) 

CADPAT is the far superior uniform.


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## TangoTwoBravo (3 Apr 2019)

I am an Army guy in a land-centric Joint unit. RCN folks tend to wear NCDs to the office and CADPAT to the range/field. RCAF aircrew folks tend to wear flight suits to the office and CADPAT to the range/field. Seems to work. 

I spent roughly six weeks sailing in CHA and HAL for a recent NATO exercise as a member of the embarked Fleet Staff. In preparation I did NETP and was accordingly issued NCDs. Without being told to do so, I wore NCDs while afloat for the exercise. I was not transiting, I was part of the staff with a duty station. I figured I would apply the same rule as the RCN folks at my unit. NCDs were practical/safe for the environment, and I found them comfortable (the fleece jacket liner - marvelous!). I was actually a little _proud_ of my NCDs. Isn't that weird for an army guy? I will turn them in when I leave my unit, but I'd happily wear them again. 

My Army CADPAT slip-ons caused some eye-brow raising/occasionally hilarious saluting confusion ashore in Halifax, but it worked as operational dress. It _might_ be helpful if the dress regs were amended to allow Army folks to wear gold army rank insignia with NCDs. Lets face it, if a sniper _had_ been floating around HAL I would have been the target with the least operational impact on the ship.  

Anyhoo, when in Rome, do as the Romans.


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