# Can a mess committee be "fired" by higher?



## Throwaway (7 Mar 2014)

First off, this is a throwaway account so as not to divulge my own identity. Think of this as a "friend of a friend" type of scenario.

There was an incident a while back where a hole was made in drywall during a mess event, and now the time has come to fix the damage. We are in a heritage building, so obviously PWGSC has to be involved and it cannot just be fixed by one of the numerous general contractors, drywallers, or civil engineers within the unit. The hole would require two sheets of drywall to be replaced, and PWGSC's quote totaled $2600. We asked for an itemized quote, and magically the total jumped up to $3100, of which $2600 was "disbursements". Naturally, this did not pass the sniff test from the many engineers and contractors that we have. Their estimate (and remember, these are their trades) was that it was a $500 job. Despite trying to be fiscally responsible, the unit authorized the repair (at $3100), issued a fin code, and essentially ordered us to pay for it with our mess money (non public funds). 

My questions are two fold - first off, is that even allowed? Nobody has formally been charged and we are just being handed a bill, which we know to be outrageously overpriced and we do not have such funds in our account: Essentially, all further mess events have to be cancelled, next years funds have to be garnished to pay for it, and we might even have to do a special levy to make ends meet. Given how the bill will be payable 30 days after work completion, we will most likely have to take out some sort of loan in order to pay.

Second of all, the threat was that the mess committee would be fired by higher and one would be imposed upon the mess if the mess did not start marching in lock step. Is this kosher? I know the mess committee serves at the leisure of the CO, but can one be imposed upon a mess without votes from it's membership?

Thank you for any clarification, can take this to PM if need be.


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Mar 2014)

Throwaway said:
			
		

> First off, this is a throwaway account so as not to divulge my own identity. Think of this as a "friend of a friend" type of scenario.
> 
> There was an incident a while back where a hole was made in drywall during a mess event, and now the time has come to fix the damage. We are in a heritage building, so obviously PWGSC has to be involved and it cannot just be fixed by one of the numerous general contractors, drywallers, or civil engineers within the unit. The hole would require two sheets of drywall to be replaced, and PWGSC's quote totaled $2600. We asked for an itemized quote, and magically the total jumped up to $3100, of which $2600 was "disbursements". Naturally, this did not pass the sniff test from the many engineers and contractors that we have. Their estimate (and remember, these are their trades) was that it was a $500 job. Despite trying to be fiscally responsible, the unit authorized the repair (at $3100), issued a fin code, and essentially ordered us to pay for it with our mess money (non public funds).
> 
> ...



Your first mistake was bringing this into the public realm. whenever someone broke something in my old mess that said person was expected to front the bill and fix it.  You should have just got the subbies to come in patch the building up and be done with it.


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## Lightguns (7 Mar 2014)

Yes, on all accounts.  +1 for RoyalDrew  

- Your Mess committee serves at the pleasure of the Base Commander.  
- Government buildings are entrusted to Messes for their use and you are expected to care for them like adults.  
- Your only means of fixing a government building is through the PW.
- Repairs such as damage from dumbasses are taken from NPF because the tax-payer is not your Mess's personal fun-money bank.
- Based on your post, your mess membership seems over-entitled and under-responsible.
- Your "throw away" account is concerning.


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## Strike (7 Mar 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Your first mistake was bringing this into the public realm. whenever someone broke something in my old mess that said person was expected to front the bill and fix it.  You should have just got the subbies to come in patch the building up and be done with it.



Except that one cannot just 'fix' things in a heritage building or else they risk losing the heritage status and the benefits (some say hassles) that come with that.


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## Throwaway (7 Mar 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Your first mistake was bringing this into the public realm. whenever someone broke something in my old mess that said person was expected to front the bill and fix it.  You should have just got the subbies to come in patch the building up and be done with it.



Wholly understood, but this was brought into the public realm as a result from higher, not at our behest. It would have been fixed in a business day had PWGSC not been brought in within hours of the incident.

Understand that we are attempting to be fiscally responsible as well as follow procedure, especially with PWGSC is involved. I am simply seeking the knowledge of others as to whether or not this is all above board and has precedent. Had it been an option, the hole would have been repaired in a day, by qualified contractors and inspected by an engineer, but this is not an option given that it was brought up to PW in record time.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2014)

> Second of all, the threat was that the mess committee would be fired by higher and one would be imposed upon the mess if the mess did not start marching in lock step. Is this kosher? I know the mess committee serves at the leisure of the CO, but can one be imposed upon a mess without votes from it's membership?


Yes the CO can fire everyone and pick a new mess committee, up to and including ordering someone to do it.

That's also a great way to destroy any spirit a mess has, no one likes a yes man being put in the PMC chair.





			
				Throwaway said:
			
		

> First off, this is a throwaway account so as not to divulge my own identity. Think of this as a "friend of a friend" type of scenario.
> 
> There was an incident a while back where a hole was made in drywall during a mess event, and now the time has come to fix the damage. We are in a heritage building, so obviously PWGSC has to be involved and it cannot just be fixed by one of the numerous general contractors, drywallers, or civil engineers within the unit. The hole would require two sheets of drywall to be replaced, and PWGSC's quote totaled $2600. We asked for an itemized quote, and magically the total jumped up to $3100, of which $2600 was "disbursements". Naturally, this did not pass the sniff test from the many engineers and contractors that we have. Their estimate (and remember, these are their trades) was that it was a $500 job. Despite trying to be fiscally responsible, the unit authorized the repair (at $3100), issued a fin code, and essentially ordered us to pay for it with our mess money (non public funds).
> 
> My questions are two fold - first off, is that even allowed? Nobody has formally been charged and we are just being handed a bill, which we know to be outrageously overpriced and we do not have such funds in our account: Essentially, all further mess events have to be cancelled, next years funds have to be garnished to pay for it, and we might even have to do a special levy to make ends meet. Given how the bill will be payable 30 days after work completion, we will most likely have to take out some sort of loan in order to pay.



If you don't have the money you don't have the money.  Ordering the mess to pay for repairs at an inflated price when the mess doesn't physically have the money seems very irresponsible.  I'd send a letter to the company and CC the chain of command and tell them you don't have the money and if they want their money you can work out an arrangement at so much $ per month or something. Or since the CoC ordered the bill be paid put a memo up the chain of command requesting their mess help yours with the cost and then make an arrangement to pay them back.

Getting a loan to pay for for a bill you were ordered to pay sounds ridiculous.


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## Throwaway (7 Mar 2014)

There are zero issues with it coming from NPF and no problems with accepting responsibility for the costs, the issue is the exorbinant amount being charged for said repair and the inability to provide an itemized quote for the repairs taking place. This is not an issue of entitlement: our event, our cost to repair, our cross to bear. The issue writ large being whether fiscal policies are being followed and whether precedent exists for a scenario such as this. Secondly, can a mess committee be imposed upon a membership without the constitutionally (mess constitution) defined voting procedures being followed?


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## PPCLI Guy (7 Mar 2014)

Are you saying that your constitution calls for an elected PMC?


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## Throwaway (7 Mar 2014)

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Are you saying that your constitution calls for an elected PMC?



That it does, elected by and from the ordinary members at a general mess meeting.


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## PPCLI Guy (7 Mar 2014)

I would suggest that is an artifice.  The PMC draws his or her authority from the CO, not the membership.


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## Throwaway (7 Mar 2014)

Interesting point, that is what is in the constitution however I shall have to check that against CFAO 27-1 and A-AD-262-000/AG-000 for inconsistencies. Obviously QR&O 27.01 overrides all. That answers question #2. Thanks PPCLI Guy, this is exactly what I was looking for.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Mar 2014)

Throwaway said:
			
		

> Wholly understood, but this was brought into the public realm as a result from higher, not at our behest.



*Higher* said "you WILL go on a public forum and confirm what we are saying is correct"??



> It would have been fixed in a business day had PWGSC not been brought in within hours of the incident. better if some dumbass(s)didn't put a hole in a wall to being with, and as it was on DND owned or leased property, we are lucky an AI/SI wasn't launched to find out exactly what happened and who was responsible as all CF members are subject to the CSD in the Mess.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Mar 2014)

Forgive me if I am wrong, but if you are using drywall sheets, I suspect the wall in question is not part of the original heritage structure, but a later add on. If you are pulling sheets and replacing them, then it's not structural, nor would you have to alter any wiring. Sounds like a tempest in a teacup being stirred into a hurricane. Guess I'm old, we had guys do a drop down ceiling in our mess over a weekend , all done by members. I don't recall anyone getting in trouble over it.


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## George Wallace (7 Mar 2014)

It may be cheaper to have Public Works come in and have their contractor place a nail in the wall so that you can hang a picture over the hole.    >


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## dapaterson (7 Mar 2014)

I know of at least one unit with a unit flag painted on a piece of 2x3 plywood, permanently fastened to the wall in the snakepit.  It has a small brass plaque below that reads something along the lines of "Dedicated to Maj Bloggins, who christened the wall with his ass in a vigorous game of crud, 199X".  The flag perfectly covers the hole made by Maj Bloggins' ass.


(I was also once on course where our grad was delayed because we had to go and clean shacks, post course party, so CE could do a damage assessment)


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## AirDet (7 Mar 2014)

You have your answers and they are the correct ones.

You have a far larger problem. You're telling us that your mess doesn't have an account large enough to cover a measly $3100? Spending this money will cripple your mess for this year and next? 

Son, it's time you looked long and hard at your cash flow. I've been on the executive of several messes for many years. I've never seen a mess with less than a full year operating budget in the bank.

You need to make some serious changes and start by increasing your mess dues to reflect the costs of running a business. I say that because that is exactly what the mess is.

I can guarantee that if your mess can't run itself NPF will step in to solve the problem for you. That would not be a good situation for anyone.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2014)

AirDet said:
			
		

> You have a far larger problem. You're telling us that your mess doesn't have an account large enough to cover a measly $3100? Spending this money will cripple your mess for this year and next?
> 
> Son, it's time you looked long and hard at your cash flow. I've been on the executive of several messes for many years. I've never seen a mess with less than a full year operating budget in the bank.



Not ever mess is a reg force mess with hundreds of members. Believe it or not some mess's have 50-100 members (many inactive) who pay may $30-$50 for the year.  A $3100 bill for a reserve unit is a pretty big deal.


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## AirDet (7 Mar 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Not ever mess is a reg force mess with hundreds of members. Believe it or not some mess's have 50-100 members (many inactive) who pay may $30-$50 for the year.  A $3100 bill for a reserve unit is a pretty big deal.



Then a solution needs to be found. A mess IS a business. If raising dues isn't an option then as the executive it's your job to find another way to fund it. Also, if you think $30-$50 a year is too much then I suggest you look and see what all other messes in the CF are charging. You're getting a deal.

Perhaps the reason the executive has been threatened with removal is because no mess should let itself get into a situation like this.


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Mar 2014)

For the SNCO and Officers Mess here at CFS ST. JOHN'S I pay the equivalent of $216 per year...


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## AirDet (7 Mar 2014)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> For the SNCO and Officers Mess here at CFS ST. JOHN'S I pay the equivalent of $216 per year...



That's about where it should be. Now multiply that by 100 members and it's a good start.


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## Nfld Sapper (7 Mar 2014)

AirDet said:
			
		

> That's about where it should be. Now multiply that by 100 members and it's a good start.



Yeah but sadley there is less than 100 of us...


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2014)

AirDet said:
			
		

> Then a solution needs to be found. A mess IS a business. If raising dues isn't an option then as the executive it's your job to find another way to fund it. Also, if you think $30-$50 a year is too much then I suggest you look and see what all other messes in the CF are charging. You're getting a deal.



For a typical reservist _troop_ their mess is open 4 nights a month for a couple of hours each night. Sometimes admin nights and sometimes after an exercise, so say maybe 9 nights a month. 

Reg force mess's are open every night (give or take). Reg F NCM mess dues are about $7 to $9 a month if I recall.   

Reg force messs make a lot of money from mess dues (hundreds of people) and a steady income from purchases.   Reserve mess's get a kick start by the yearly mess dues and then need to make it by with product sales 1-2 times a week for a couple of hours after 10PM.   

I'm not sure if the OP is a member of a reg force or reservist mess but there's a huge difference in cash between them.  I'm guessing it's a JRs mess.



> Perhaps the reason the executive has been threatened with removal is because no mess should let itself get into a situation like this.


Replacing the mess committee every time something gets broke in a mess would be quite the revolving door policy.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Mar 2014)

Mine are $12/month.


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## AirDet (7 Mar 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if the OP is a member of a reg force or reservist mess but there's a huge difference in cash between them.  I'm guessing it's a JRs mess.
> Replacing the mess committee every time something gets broke in a mess would be quite the revolving door policy.



My feeling is it's a JR's as well. It may even be a reserve unit. The point is when you accept a position on a mess exec it comes with responsibility. Keeping it running and financially healthy is a big part of that.

I also agree that replacing the committee every time something is broken would be ridiculous. However, failure to maintain the financial health of the mess is a far more serious allegation, isn't it?

If his mess has Civil Engineers and Contractors as he said then there should be no excuse for $3100 busting the bank.


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Mar 2014)

Well way back when, we did raffle off some the services of some ladies, which for some reason the VPD took a dim view of. Raising money for a Mess is easy, doing it legally not so much. I can't think of a mess in the reserves that isn't struggling at some point.

I recall a visit to a Pine Tree station where the messes took turns being open on the weekends, basically everyone piled into whichever mess was open that day.


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## DAA (7 Mar 2014)

It's been many years, since I was involved in Mess management, as either a member of the Exec or Fin Advisor.  But I do believe, that the proceeds from Mess Dues and the proceeds from bar sales, are two distinctly different pots of money and aren't mixed.

So your Mess Dues, don't go towards paying salaries, that I do know.  On the damage side of the house, that's grey area.  You don't technically own the building and are basically a tenant occupying/using space. Normally, infrastructure is managed and funded through the local support unit.

Not sure if CFP 292 is still around and in effect but that is where you might want to look.


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## brihard (7 Mar 2014)

So if I read this right (and reference to contractors and engineers suggest it's a reserve unit):

- A typical mess night happens with typical minor property damage.
- The troops try to fix it ASAP, absorbing the cost, but they get stop-punched by PWGSC.
- Drywall, apparently, is a heritage artifact.
- PWGSC provides a quote that professionals within the unit know is ludicrously high.
- The mess committee questions the numbers and wants to see what the quotes actually say to justify the cost
- The spanish inquisition.


Have I got this more or less right?


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## Tibbson (7 Mar 2014)

I believe if you check regulations a Mess, being an NPF establishment, is not able to "take out a loan".  Now, if you meant you would go to one of the other Messes for help to get the bill paid, after which you would reimburse the other Mess over time, that is not normally an issue but it's not as though you can just take on a debt otherwise.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2014)

AirDet said:
			
		

> I also agree that replacing the committee every time something is broken would be ridiculous. However, failure to maintain the financial health of the mess is a far more serious allegation, isn't it?


Totally agree. It sounds like their mess is being made to pay $3100 when they can get the work done for 1/3 the price, which it seems is putting the mess in a financially unhealthy spot.

Point being, $3100 for a mess that has hundreds of members paying monthly mess dues isn't that much of a hit (especially when they can afford to _give away_ a $10'000 four wheeler at Christmas like the Kyerna club in Petawawa). 
To a reserve mess, especially if it's a single unit of 50 or less members, $3100 is a fortune.  



> If his mess has Civil Engineers and Contractors as he said then there should be no excuse for $3100 busting the bank.


His unit has the engineers and contractors, not necessarily his mess.


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## Tibbson (7 Mar 2014)

Throwaway said:
			
		

> There are zero issues with it coming from NPF and no problems with accepting responsibility for the costs, the issue is the exorbinant amount being charged for said repair and the inability to provide an itemized quote for the repairs taking place. This is not an issue of entitlement: our event, our cost to repair, our cross to bear. The issue writ large being whether fiscal policies are being followed and whether precedent exists for a scenario such as this. Secondly, can a mess committee be imposed upon a membership without the constitutionally (mess constitution) defined voting procedures being followed?



When you break it down it's not all that exorbitant.  Knowing how they work you need to pay for the repairman. his flunky who carries the tools, a supervisor and a driver.  Oh, and a vehicle big enough for them to nap in.


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## Tibbson (7 Mar 2014)

I guess I look at it in a rather black and white light.  The person(s) who did this should be made to pay and for that reason alone I don't see why there shouldn't have been an SI.


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## Robert0288 (7 Mar 2014)

So much for solving problems at the lowest possible level eh?


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## DAA (7 Mar 2014)

Gee, isn't the invention of "PSP" just the greatest thing since sliced bread?


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## Remius (7 Mar 2014)

As a side note throwaway isn't forthcoming with all the details.  This isn't the first incident involving this particular mess.  In the last 5 years there have been thousands of dollars in damage to a shared mess.  The mess was shut down  for months after one particular incident where everything including regimental artifacts were damaged.  The units in question finally had enough of being the ones paying out of public funds for irresponsible behaviour and the fact that no one would come forward to take responsibility.  The only reason that mess is being held to account is because the unit imposed duty staff.  They witnessed it.

This goes beyond typical mess behaviour. Their unit CoC is holding them to account.  If you can't police yourselves someone else will.

Yes it is a reserve mess and while they may have the funds collectively I suspect it is the mess dues that one particular unit that shares that mess is being tapped to pay for this and as such they may not have the money to fix this.


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## Tibbson (7 Mar 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> As a side note throwaway isn't forthcoming with all the details.  This isn't the first incident involving this particular mess.  In the last 5 years there have been thousands of dollars in damage to a shared mess.  The mess was shut down  for months after one particular incident where everything including regimental artifacts were damaged.  The units in question finally had enough of being the ones paying out of public funds for irresponsible behaviour and the fact that no one would come forward to take responsibility.  The only reason that mess is being held to account is because the unit imposed duty staff.  They witnessed it.
> 
> This goes beyond typical mess behaviour. Their unit CoC is holding them to account.  If you can't police yourselves someone else will.
> 
> Yes it is a reserve mess and while they may have the funds collectively I suspect it is the mess dues that one particular unit that shares that mess is being tapped to pay for this and as such they may not have the money to fix this.



Well, again I ask, if duty staff witnessed the event then why are the individual(s) involved not being held personally responsible?  Obviously their behavior was outside the realm of what would be considered acceptable.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Mar 2014)

and things are put into perspective  ;D


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## Remius (7 Mar 2014)

I only have peripheral knowledge but the member in question has released or was in the process of releasing.   I can't be sure if the unit or mess are pursuing this through civil litigation or not.  If the member is still in then I'm not sure why they haven't pursued that course of action or didn't while he was in.  

This is starting to get out of my lane so grain of salt.


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## AirDet (7 Mar 2014)

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> I guess I look at it in a rather black and white light.  The person(s) who did this should be made to pay and for that reason alone I don't see why there shouldn't have been an SI.



Agreed. There are a few options to have the responsible party pay for it. As a Sr NCO I'd be considering something a little more disciplinary in nature. Either way, that unit has a bigger problem than just a hole in a wall.


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## acen (7 Mar 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> As a side note throwaway isn't forthcoming with all the details.  This isn't the first incident involving this particular mess.  In the last 5 years there have been thousands of dollars in damage to a shared mess.  The mess was shut down  for months after one particular incident where everything including regimental artifacts were damaged.  The units in question finally had enough of being the ones paying out of public funds for irresponsible behaviour and the fact that no one would come forward to take responsibility.  The only reason that mess is being held to account is because the unit imposed duty staff.  They witnessed it.
> 
> This goes beyond typical mess behaviour. Their unit CoC is holding them to account.  If you can't police yourselves someone else will.
> 
> Yes it is a reserve mess and while they may have the funds collectively I suspect it is the mess dues that one particular unit that shares that mess is being tapped to pay for this and as such they may not have the money to fix this.



Yeah, there is quite a bit more at play here in terms of details than was let on. This particular wall has a storied history, even if nothing about it is historical. The structure is a bit disjointed in comparison to what a normal mess is. More club than mess in terms of how funds are managed, with a normal overriding combined mess.


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## brihard (7 Mar 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> As a side note throwaway isn't forthcoming with all the details.  This isn't the first incident involving this particular mess.  In the last 5 years there have been thousands of dollars in damage to a shared mess.  The mess was shut down  for months after one particular incident where everything including regimental artifacts were damaged.  The units in question finally had enough of being the ones paying out of public funds for irresponsible behaviour and the fact that no one would come forward to take responsibility.  The only reason that mess is being held to account is because the unit imposed duty staff.  They witnessed it.
> 
> This goes beyond typical mess behaviour. Their unit CoC is holding them to account.  If you can't police yourselves someone else will.
> 
> Yes it is a reserve mess and while they may have the funds collectively I suspect it is the mess dues that one particular unit that shares that mess is being tapped to pay for this and as such they may not have the money to fix this.



I see nothing here that invalidates Throwaway's original concern. I don't read that as the mess is trying to get out of accountability for anything here. It seems they're merely questioning an outlandish dollar amount that's been quoted them. We're talking about a hole in drywall here, after all. If the mess as a legal entity is being expected to pay for the damage, it's perfectly reasonable for them to want to see clear accounting of the costs. I'd go so far as to say that the mess committee has an obligation to its members to make sure their money is spent responsibly. Fair to say?


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## JesseWZ (7 Mar 2014)

Brihard said:
			
		

> - PWGSC provides a quote that professionals within the unit know is ludicrously high.
> - The mess committee questions the numbers and wants to see what the quotes actually say to justify the cost
> - The spanish inquisition.
> Have I got this more or less right?



To be fair to the OP, I betcha no one was expecting it...


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## Remius (7 Mar 2014)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I see nothing here that invalidates Throwaway's original concern. I don't read that as the mess is trying to get out of accountability for anything here. It seems they're merely questioning an outlandish dollar amount that's been quoted them. We're talking about a hole in drywall here, after all. If the mess as a legal entity is being expected to pay for the damage, it's perfectly reasonable for them to want to see clear accounting of the costs. I'd go so far as to say that the mess committee has an obligation to its members to make sure their money is spent responsibly. Fair to say?



Yes. Fair to say.  My comments were aimed at those wondering why there may have seemed to be a heavy hand.


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## AirDet (7 Mar 2014)

acen said:
			
		

> Yeah, there is quite a bit more at play here in terms of details



There always is...


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## Humphrey Bogart (7 Mar 2014)

Strike said:
			
		

> Except that one cannot just 'fix' things in a heritage building or else they risk losing the heritage status and the benefits (some say hassles) that come with that.



Dude, it's a five hundred dollar dry-wall job we aren't talking major renovations here so let's not be so dramatic.

In any case this whole thing appears to me to be "beyond retarded" and the CoC is just as ridiculous for even putting this up to Public Works.  

It's $500 bucks and if someone even made a stink about the building losing it's heritage status the Honorary Colonels and Regt Associatrion would be all over their ass and in the papers.  It's not even an issue!


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## cupper (7 Mar 2014)

$500.00 is too much.

A couple of rolls of duct tape and a new coat of paint. Shift the trophy cabinet and everything is fine.


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## Remius (7 Mar 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Dude, it's a five hundred dollar dry-wall job we aren't talking major renovations here so let's not be so dramatic.
> 
> In any case this whole thing appears to me to be "beyond retarded" and the CoC is just as ridiculous for even putting this up to Public Works.
> 
> It's $500 bucks and if someone even made a stink about the building losing it's heritage status the Honorary Colonels and Regt Associatrion would be all over their *** and in the papers.  It's not even an issue!



He isn't being dramatic.  Heritage buildings have extremely strict guidelines.  Even putting a nail in the wall for a picture requires their attention.


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## Strike (8 Mar 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> She He isn't being dramatic.  Heritage buildings have extremely strict guidelines.  Even putting a nail in the wall for a picture requires their attention.



FTFY   ;D


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## Remius (8 Mar 2014)

Strike said:
			
		

> FTFY   ;D



I stand corrected.


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## x_para76 (8 Mar 2014)

Part of the problem with some of these old buildings and why repairs or renovations can't just be done adhoc is because many of them contain asbestos and even just taking down some drywall can run the risk of exposing people. The C.O of my former reserve unit made this mistake and ended up exposing 10 troops to asbestos. I'm not trying to be the health & safety police here but this could be another reason as to why the repair work can't just be done by anyone.


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## Tibbson (8 Mar 2014)

Crantor said:
			
		

> He isn't being dramatic.  Heritage buildings have extremely strict guidelines.  Even putting a nail in the wall for a picture requires their attention.



Agreed.  My old reserve unit went through the process of having one of their 2 old stone armouries declared a heritage building at a time when they were concerned the Govt was going to be closing/amalgamating reserve units.  They thought that it would somewhat protect them and the building.  I have no idea of their logic but the point is they now have very strict guidelines about what they can do within the building and there is a detailed inspection once a year to ensure they still comply.  My brother is the chief clerk back there and it's a big deal.  Just to get permission to repaint the Coy OC's office took almost 3 months with the paint colour even having to be approved.


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## Jarnhamar (8 Mar 2014)

RoyalDrew said:
			
		

> Dude, it's a five hundred dollar dry-wall job we aren't talking major renovations here so let's not be so dramatic.



To support what others are saying I've experienced the headache in how freaking hard it can be to put a nail in a wall to hang a picture. Compounding the difficulties are members of the CoC who interpose themselves in the process.

Someone "Signing in" to the sound of $210 to come in and meet with someone to discuss the process of possibly having someone come in to inspect a brick wall to see if a nail will destroy the structural integrity.


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## a_majoor (8 Mar 2014)

Throwaway said:
			
		

> There was an incident a while back where a hole was made in drywall during a mess event, and now the time has come to fix the damage. We are in a heritage building, so obviously PWGSC has to be involved and it cannot just be fixed by one of the numerous general contractors, drywallers, or civil engineers within the unit. The hole would require two sheets of drywall to be replaced, and PWGSC's quote totaled $2600. We asked for an itemized quote, and magically the total jumped up to $3100, *of which $2600 was "disbursements"*. Naturally, this did not pass the sniff test from the many engineers and contractors that we have. Their estimate (and remember, these are their trades) was that it was a $500 job. Despite trying to be fiscally responsible, the unit authorized the repair (at $3100), issued a fin code, and essentially ordered us to pay for it with our mess money (non public funds).



I would be very concerned about that invoice, it is not kosher at all. Some people have mentioned heritage or the possibility of Asbestos, but if those were factors then they should be clearly stated in the invoice (i.e. "Heritage inspection", "Asbestos remediation" or something along those lines). I would go so far as to demand a formal investigation as to the invoice, including who these "disbursements" were made to and for what reasons. The fact that the estimate jumped almost a $1000 after the request for an itemized invoice should also have raised alarm bells, and merits looking into.

After all, if PWGSC is issuing non itemized invoices and their costs are not even remotely in line with what commercial practice and common sense would indicate for this case, what exactly are they charging for other, more routine items? (and why?).


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## kratz (8 Mar 2014)

I agree with Thucydides. 

When I had CFHA (a different public contactor) fix the hole we made in my RHU (PMQ),
it was only $38 total. I was worried about long delays, high costs ect...for nothing.

I think Throwaway is right in questioning the cost. CAAP standards expect itemized bills for payment,
so it is not unreasonable to expect it.


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