# CANFORGEN on Pay and PIL



## Pusser

I've heard rumours from credible sources that a CANFORGEN on pay is to be released today (30 Mar 12).  Has anyone seen it?  Can you post a copy here?  Unfortunately, I don't have DWAN access at the moment.


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## PMedMoe

Doesn't appear to have been released yet.


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## Teeps74

Nothing on DGC&B yet.

ETA:  No change to the CBIs yet either.


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## Teeps74

In the spirit of this most auspicious event, I two have heard a rumour. To make up for the lack of "Cost of Living Increase" since 2010, the new CBI will reflect an 8% graduated increase back dated to 1 April 2010.









Before taking out that mortgage, check your calendar for what day Sun is...


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## Eye In The Sky

8% seems rather high, as a benchmark that is approx. $378/month increase for Standard, IPC 4 Cpl/LS


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## GAP

he's not getting it.............. :





hee hee  ;D


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## dapaterson

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 8% seems rather high, as a benchmark that is approx. $378/month increase for Standard, IPC 4 Cpl/LS



Hmm.. someone makes a post about "April 1st".  I'm thinking - and it's a stretch here - that it might just be a joke.


Given PSAC got 5.25% over three years (1.75%, 1.5% and 2%) after surrendering their severance pay I'd expect the CF increase to be very similar.


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## derf39

Haven't heard of anything about a canforgen on pay....  8% does seem rather high....


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## Eye In The Sky

CANFORGEN is there now.  I'm trying to format it from the copy/paste to readable form here to post.


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## Strike

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> CANFORGEN is there now.  *I'm trying to format it from the copy/paste to readable form here to post.*



Wasn't this covered on CTAT?   ;D


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## Sub_Guy

I smell something funky.

And it is not one of my kids off loading last nights Chili into the Diaper...


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## Eye In The Sky

Not sure why, but I couldn't get it to post, BUT...I was able to send it to the OP in a PM.  Stand by to stand by!!!


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## Eye In The Sky

CANFORGEN 062/12 CMP 029/12 301516Z MAR 12

PAY/ALLOWANCES INCREASE AND CESSATION OF ACCUMULATION OF SEVERANCE PAY AND RESERVE FORCE RETIREMENT GRATUITY (RFRG)

UNCLASSIFIED

1.  FURTHER TO THE MND PARLIAMENTARY ANNOUNCEMENT OF 28 MAR, THIS CANFORGEN IS TO INFORM ALL CF REG AND RES MEMBERS OF THE GOVT OF CANADA APPROVED PAY INCREASE 

2.  THIS PAY INCREASE INCLUDES MULTI-YEAR ECONOMIC INCREASES AND AN ADJUSTMENT IN RECOGNITION OF THE CESSATION OF THE ACCUMULATION OF SEVERANCE/RFRG

3.  PAY AND ALLOWANCES. THE FOLLOWING INCREASES TO PAY AND ALLOWANCES HAVE BEEN APPROVED BY TREASURY BOARD: 

A.  RETROACTIVE TO 1 APR 11: FOR NCMS, GENERAL OFFICERS, COL AND LEGAL OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF BGEN, COL AND LCOL OF THE LEGAL BRANCH, GSO AND PILOTS, IN THE RANK OF LCOL AND BELOW, AND MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS, A TOTAL INCREASE OF 1.75 PERCENT TO PAY, REPRESENTING AN ECONOMIC INCREASE OF 1.5 PERCENT AND AN ADJUSTMENT FOR THE CESSATION OF SEVERANCE/RFRG OF 0.25 PERCENT 

B.  RETROACTIVE TO 1 APR 11: AN INCREASE OF 1.5 PERCENT TO ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES, SPECIAL OPS ASSAULTER ALLOWANCE, SUBMARINE CREWING ALLOWANCE, STRESS ALLOWANCE FOR TEST PARTICIPANTS AND SPECIAL ALLOWANCE CFS ALERT 

C.  EFFECTIVE 1 APR 12: FOR NCMS, GENERAL OFFICERS, COL AND LEGAL OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF BGEN, COL AND LCOL OF THE LEGAL BRANCH, GSO AND PILOTS, IN THE RANK OF LCOL AND BELOW, AND MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS, AN INCREASE OF 1.5 PERCENT TO PAY 

D.  EFFECTIVE 1 APR 12: AN INCREASE OF 1.5 PERCENT TO ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES, SPECIAL OPS ASSAULTER ALLOWANCE, SUBMARINE CREWING ALLOWANCE, STRESS ALLOWANCE FOR TEST PARTICIPANTS AND SPECIAL ALLOWANCE CFS ALERT 

E.  EFFECTIVE 1 APR 13: FOR NCMS, GSO, PILOTS, IN THE RANK OF LCOL AND BELOW, AND MEDICAL AND DENTAL OFFICERS, A TOTAL INCREASE OF 2 PERCENT TO PAY, REPRESENTING AN ECONOMIC INCREASE OF 1.5 PERCENT AND AN ADJUSTMENT FOR THE CESSATION OF SEVERANCE/RFRG OF 0.5 PERCENT 

F.  EFFECTIVE 1 APR 13: AN INCREASE OF 1.5 PERCENT TO ENVIRONMENTAL ALLOWANCES, SPECIAL OPS ASSAULTER ALLOWANCE, SUBMARINE CREWING ALLOWANCE, STRESS ALLOWANCE FOR TEST PARTICIPANTS AND SPECIAL ALLOWANCE CFS ALERT 

G.  AT THIS TIME, THERE HAS BEEN NO DECISION MADE REGARDING AN ECONOMIC INCREASE FOR GENERAL OFFICERS, COL, AND LEGAL OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF BGEN, COL AND LCOL OF THE LEGAL BRANCH FOR 1 APR 13 

H.  FOR LEGAL OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF CAPT AND MAJ, PAY INCREASES ARE SUBJECT TO A SEPARATE PAY PROCESS AND WILL BE ANNOUNCED AT A LATER DATE 

I.  MEMBERS WILL SEE THE RETROACTIVE 1 APR 11 PAY INCREASE ON THEIR MIDDLE OF MAY 12 PAY, AND THE 1 APR 12 PAY INCREASE ON THEIR END OF MAY 12 PAY. THE REVISED RATES OF PAY AND ALLOWANCES ARE AVAILABLE ON THE DGCB WEBSITE : (IntraNet URLs removed)

4.  SEVERANCE PAY/RFRG. CONSISTENT WITH CHANGES TO SEVERANCE PAY FOR THE CORE PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION, EXECUTIVES, AND LAW MANAGEMENT GROUPS OF THE PUBLIC SERVICE, SEVERANCE ACCUMULATION FOR VOLUNTARY DEPARTURES (RESIGNATION OR RETIREMENT) FOR MEMBERS OF THE CF WILL CEASE. 

A.  EFFECTIVE 1 MAR 12, CBI 204.40 (SEVERANCE PAY) AND CBI 204.54 (RFRG) ARE CANCELLED AND REPLACED BY THE NEW CBI 204.40 TITLED CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY (CFSP) 

B.  UNDER PREVIOUS SEVERANCE BENEFIT PROVISIONS, ALL MEMBERS VOLUNTARILY RELEASING (4(C)) WITH LESS THAN TEN YEARS OF ELIGIBILE SERVICE RECEIVED NO BENEFIT. REG F MEMBERS RELEASING VOLUNTARILY WITH TEN OR MORE YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE RECEIVED A BENEFIT CALCULATED AT THREE POINT FIVE DAYS OF PAY PER YEAR. AN RFRG BENEFIT FOR ELIGIBLE RES F MEMBERS RELEASING VOLUNTARILY WITH TEN TO TWENTY YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE WAS CALCULATED AT THREE POINT FIVE DAYS OF PAY PER YEAR. WITH TWENTY OR MORE YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE, IT WAS CALCULATED AT SEVEN DAYS OF PAY PER YEAR. UNDER THE NEW PROVISIONS, ALL SEVERANCE BENEFITS WILL BE CALCULATED AT SEVEN DAYS OF PAY FOR EVERY YEAR OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE, INCLUDING PARTIAL YEARS. THE REQUIREMENT TO HAVE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF YEARS BEFORE BEING ELIGIBLE FOR SEVERANCE BENEFITS WHEN VOLUNTARILY RELEASING HAS BEEN ELIMINATED. IN ADDITION, ELIGIBLE RES F SERVICE WILL BE CALCULATED BASED ON ELAPSED TIME RATHER THAN PAID SERVICE 

C.  THE CALCULATION OF A SEVERANCE BENEFIT DEPENDS UPON YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE. GENERALLY, THE ACCUMULATION OF YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE CEASES:  

(1) EFFECTIVE 1 OCT 11: FOR GENERAL OFFICERS, COL, AND LEGAL OFFICERS IN THE RANK OF LCOL AND ABOVE  

(2) EFFECTIVE THE DATE OF PROMOTION: FOR MEMBERS PROMOTED TO THE SUBSTANTIVE RANK OF COL AND ABOVE AND TO LEGAL OFFICER SUBSTANTIVE RANK LCOL AFTER 30 SEP 11 AND BEFORE 1 MAR 12  

(3) EFFECTIVE 1 MAR 12: FOR ALL OTHER CF OFFICERS AND NCMS (EXCLUDING MILITARY JUDGES)  

(4) EXCEPTION: THE ACCUMULATION OF YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE CONTINUES FOR A MEMBER WHO IS RELEASED UNDER ITEM 3(A), 3(B), 5(B), 5(D), 5(E), OR 5(C) WHERE THE MEMBER HAS NOT REACHED RETIREMENT AGE UNDER QR AND O CHAPTER 15 BUT HAS COMPLETED THE PERIOD OF OBLIGATORY SERVICE BECAUSE OF A CHANGE IN CLASSIFICATION OR TRADE SPECIFICATIONS OR IN THE ESTABLISHMENT REQUIREMENTS OF THE CF 

D.  MEMBERS WILL HAVE THE FOLLOWING THREE OPTIONS REGARDING THE PAYMENT OF A SEVERANCE BENEFIT UNDER CBI 204.40:  

(1) ELECT TO BE PAID A FULL SEVERANCE BENEFIT PRIOR TO RELEASE  

(2) ELECT TO BE PAID PART OF A SEVERANCE BENEFIT PRIOR TO RELEASE AND TO RECEIVE ANY REMAINING SEVERANCE BENEFIT AT RELEASE  

(3) RECEIVE ALL SEVERANCE BENEFITS AT RELEASE 

E.  TO MAKE AN ELECTION ALL MEMBERS WILL BE PROVIDED WITH AN ESTIMATE OF THEIR YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE IN AN INFORMATION PACKAGE TO BE MAILED BY EARLY FALL 

F.  THE ELECTION PERIOD IS FROM MID DEC 12 TO MID MAR 13. CBI 204.40 DOES NOT AUTHORIZE ANY EXTENSIONS TO THE ELECTION PERIOD. ELECTION FORMS MUST BE RECEIVED NO LATER THAN THE LAST MOMENT OF THE 15TH DAY AFTER THE ELECTION PERIOD ENDS. MEMBERS WHOSE ELECTIONS FORMS ARE NOT RECEIVED BY THIS TIME WILL NOT REPEAT NOT BE ABLE TO GET A SEVERANCE BENEFIT UNTIL THEIR RELEASE 

G.  THE MAXIMUM YEARS FOR WHICH SEVERANCE BENEFITS ARE PAYABLE UNDER ANY QR AND O OR CBI CANNOT EXCEED 30 YEARS IN A MEMBERS LIFETIME 

H.  CMP STAFF ARE PRESENTLY WORKING ON THE ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESSES TO IMPLEMENT THIS INITIATIVE. FURTHER DETAILS WILL BE PROMULGATED AS SOON AS THEY ARE AVAILABLE 

SIGNED BY CMP


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## Sub_Guy

The raise will disappear when they up our pension contributions!


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## Journeyman

Hopefully it's enough to keep a hypothetical 4-year Cpl, whose _personal choices_ have left him, wife and multiple kids oppressively tied to PMQs in another thread, off of suicide watch.

 :stirpot:


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## SupersonicMax

If I understand correctly, our severance pay will cease, but instead of being calculated for 3.5 days per year of service, it will be calculated for 7 days per year of service with the 3 options highlighted by dapaterson on page 1 of this thread.



> INDEMNITE DE DEPART ET ARFR. CONFORMÉMENT AUX CHANGEMENTS A L INDEMNITE DE DEPART POUR LES GROUPES DE L ADMINISTRATION PUBLIQUE CENTRALE, DE LA DIRECTION ET DE LA GESTION DU DROIT DE LA FONCTION PUBLIQUE, L ACCUMULATION DE L INDEMNITE DE DEPART POUR LES DEPARTS VOLONTAIRES (DEMISSION OU RETRAITE) POUR LES MEMBRES DES FC SE TERMINE
> 
> 
> ENTREE EN VIGUEUR LE 1 MAR 12, LA DRAS 204.40 (INDEMNITE DE DEPART) ET LA DRAS 204.54 (ARFR) ONT ETE ANNULES ET REMPLACES PAR LA NOUVELLE DRAS 204.40 INTITULEE: INDEMNITE DE DEPART DES FORCES CANADIENNES (IDFC)
> 
> 
> SELON LES DISPOSITIONS ANTERIEURES DES INDEMNITES DE DEPART, LES MILITAIRES, AVEC MOINS DE DIX ANS DE SERVICE ADMISSIBLE, QUI PRENAIENT UNE LIBERATION VOLONTAIRE (MOTIF 4(C)) NE RECEVAIT AUCUNE PRESTATION. LES MILITAIRES DE LA FORCE REG, AVEC PLUS DE DIX ANS DE SERVICE ADMISSIBLE, QUI PRENAIENT UNE LIBERATION VOLONTAIRE (MOTIF 4(C)) RECEVAIENT UNE PRESTATION CALCULEE A TROIS JOURS ET DEMIE DE SOLDE PAR AN. LES MILITAIRES ELIGIBLES DE LA FORCE RES, AYANT ENTRE DIX A VINGT ANNEES DE SERVICE ADMISSIBLE, QUI PRENAIENT UNE LIBERATION VOLONTAIRE (MOTIF 4(C)), RECEVAIENT UNE PRESTATION ARFR CALCULEE A TROIS JOURS ET DEMIE DE SOLDE PAR AN. ALORS QUE CEUX AVEC VINGT ANNEES DE SERVICE ET PLUS, RECEVAIT UNE PRESTATION ARFR CALCULEE A SEPT JOURS DE SOLDE PAR AN. SOUS LES NOUVELLES DISPOSITIONS, TOUTES LES PRESTATIONS SERONT CALCULEES A SEPT JOURS DE SOLDE PAR ANNEE DE SERVICE ADMISSIBLE, INCLUANT TOUTE PARTIE D ANNEE. LA NECESSITE D AVOIR UN CERTAIN NOMBRE D ANNEES DE SERVICE POUR OBTENIR UNE INDEMNITÉ DE DEPART LORS D UNE LIBERATION VOLONTAIRE DEPART EST ELIMINEE. DE PLUS, LE SERVICE DE LA FORCE RES ADMISSIBLE SERA CALCULE EN FONCTION DU TEMPS ECOULE PLUTOT QUE DU SERVICE PAYE
> 
> 
> LE CALCUL DE L INDEMNITE DE DEPART EST RELIE AUX ANNEES DE SERVICE ADMISSIBLE. GENERALEMENT, L ACCUMULATION DES ANNEES DE SERVICE ADMISSIBLE PREND FIN:
> 
> (1) ENTREE EN VIGUEUR LE 1 OCT 11: POUR LES OFFICIERS GENERAUX, LES COL, ET LES AVOCATS MILITAIRES AYANT LE GRADE DE LCOL/CAPF OU UN GRADE SUPERIEUR
> 
> (2) ENTREE EN VIGUEUR A LA DATE DE PROMOTION: POUR MILITAIRES PROMUS AU GRADE EFFECTIF DE COL OU UN GRADE SUPERIEUR ET POUR LES AVOCATS MILITAIRES PROMUS AU GRADE EFFECTIF DE LCOL APRES LE 30 SEP 11 ET OU AVANT LE 1 MAR 12
> 
> (3) ENTREE EN VIGUEUR LE 1 MAR 12: POUR TOUS LES AUTRES OFFICIERS DES FC ET LES MILITAIRES DU RANG (A L EXCEPTION DES JUGES MILITAIRES)
> 
> (4) EXCEPTION: L ACCUMULATION DES ANNEES DE SERVICE ADMISSIBLE CONTINUE POUR UN MILITAIRE LIBERE EN VERTU DES DISPOSITIONS DES ALINEAS 3(A), 3(B), 5(B), 5(D), 5(E), OU 5(C) SANS AVOIR ATTEINT L AGE DE LA RETRAITE EN VERTU DU CHAPITRE 15 DES ORFC MAIS QUI A TERMINE SA PERIODE DE SERVICE OBLIGATOIRE A CAUSE D UN CHANGEMENT DE CLASSIFICATION, DE DESCRIPTION DE GPM OU D EXIGENCES RELATIVES AU TABLEAU D EFFECTIFS ET DE DOTATION DES FC
> 
> *
> LES MILITAIRES AURONT TROIS OPTIONS EN CE QUI CONCERNE LE PAIEMENT POUR L INDEMNITE DE DEPART SOUS LA DRAS:
> 
> (1) EXERCER LE CHOIX DE RECEVOIR UN PAIEMENT D UNE INDEMNITE DE DEPART COMPLETE AVANT LA LIBERATION
> 
> (2) EXERCER LE CHOIX DE RECEVOIR UNE PORTION DE PAIEMENT D UNE INDEMNITE DE DEPART AVANT LA LIBERATION ET DE RECEVOIR LE RESTE AU MOMENT DE LEUR LIBERATION
> 
> (3) RECEVOIR TOUTE L INDEMNITE DE DEPART A LEUR LIBERATION
> *
> 
> POUR EXERCER LEUR CHOIX, TOUS LES MILITAIRES TOUCHES RECEVRONT UNE ESTIMATION DE LEUR ANNEES DE SERVICE ADMISSIBLE DANS UNE TROUSSE D INFORMATION QUI SERA POSTEE AU DEBUT DE L AUTOMNE
> 
> 
> LA PERIODE POUR EXERCER LE CHOIX SERA DU MI-DEC 12 AU MI-MAR 13 INCLUS. LA DRAS N AUTORISE PAS D EXTENSION A CETTE PERIODE. LA FORMULE DE CHOIX DOIT ETRE RECU AU PLUS TARD LE DERNIER INSTANT DU 15 IEME JOUR APRES LA FIN DE LA PERIODE D OPTION. LES MILITAIRES DONT LA FORMULE DE CHOIX N EST PAS RECUE DANS CE DELAIS NE SERONT PAS EN MESURE D OBTENIR LEUR INDEMNITE DE DEPART AVANT LEUR LIBERATION


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## PPCLI Guy

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> If I understand correctly, our severance pay will cease, but instead of being calculated for 3.5 days per year of service, it will be calculated for 7 days per year of service with the 3 options highlighted by dapaterson on page 1 of this thread.



Reservists go from 3.5 to 7.  Regs always were at 7.


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## Pat in Halifax

Hmmm
It hasn't shown in my BB and I have a "Don't f*** with me" app.
...believe half of what you see and less of what you hear...but ....


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## dapaterson

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Reservists go from 3.5 to 7.  Regs always were at 7.



Except that now everyone gets 7 days per year of service up to Feb 2012; until now, those with under 10 years would have got nothing.  And given the heavy turn over in the Reg F after the initial engagement or second engagement, with folks frequently not reaching 10 years, it's a nice bonus for those junior folks who otherwise would never have qualified.


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## Pusser

Now I'm curious as to whether I can combine my reserve service (way back in the stone age) in with my regular force service to max out entitlement.


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## 63 Delta

So... Am I reading into this right? If I made $100 000, I would be getting $1750 before taxes?


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## dapaterson

Pusser said:
			
		

> Now I'm curious as to whether I can combine my reserve service (way back in the stone age) in with my regular force service to max out entitlement.



Good question.  The new CBI 240.40 has yet to be posted; hopefully it will clarify that point.  One possible hiccup in your otherwise cunning plan may be the CF's (mis)management of Component Transfers - did you transfer directly from the Reserve Force into the Regular Force, or did you release and then re-enrol?  Breaks in service can have damaging effects on individuals in some circumstances.


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## dapaterson

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> So... Am I reading into this right? If I made $100 000, I would be getting $1750 before taxes?



Yes.  That's the same economic increase received by the public service (well, PSAC at least).


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## Eye In The Sky

The other "disqualifier" for severance is any time you were paid out a RFRG for.  Can't remember the exact para, but saw it in the CBI this morning (which makes perfect sense).


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## Eye In The Sky

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> So... Am I reading into this right? If I made $100 000, I would be getting $1750 before taxes?



Plus 1.5% of any environmental allowances, etc you received IAW 3(b) of the CANFORGEN.


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## Pusser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Good question.  The new CBI 240.40 has yet to be posted; hopefully it will clarify that point.  One possible hiccup in your otherwise cunning plan may be the CF's (mis)management of Component Transfers - did you transfer directly from the Reserve Force into the Regular Force, or did you release and then re-enrol?  Breaks in service can have damaging effects on individuals in some circumstances.



Good point.  I did it back in the day (1985) when you had to release and then re-enroll.  Mine was back to back (i.e. released 21 Jun 85 and re-enrolled on 22 Jun 85), but we'll have to see.  The end result will be a difference of three week's pay - hardly something worth losing sleep over, but I'll still push for it if there's an opening.

I don't have to worry about RFRG.  It didn't exist when I joined the Reg Force.


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## dapaterson

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The other "disqualifier" for severance is any time you were paid out a RFRG for.  Can't remember the exact para, but saw it in the CBI this morning (which makes perfect sense).



Pusser is sufficiently old ancient decrepit experienced that I suspect his service predates the RFRG (which came into force in the late 90s).


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## Eye In The Sky

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Pusser is sufficiently old ancient decrepit experienced that I suspect his service predates the RFRG (which came into force in the late 90s).



I was mentioning it more for "common knowledge"  ;D  Just so people like me who CTd and got the RFRG don't start seeing $$ in their eyes that shouldn't be there and then get all   - like.


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## dogger1936

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Hopefully it's enough to keep a hypothetical 4-year Cpl, whose _personal choices_ have left him, wife and multiple kids oppressively tied to PMQs in another thread, off of suicide watch.
> 
> :stirpot:



Know your troops promote their welfare.

200 dollars is a lot to a young NCM a month. If your that disconnected from that reality; that's a topic on it's own.


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## Eye In The Sky

Just for a benchmark, using Cpl, Standard, IPC 4 (probably the most common rank, pay cat and IPC), here's some rough figures for what the actual pay increases look like.  

2010:  $4733

2011:  $4816

2012:  $4888

2013:  $4986  ($253 increase/month - $3036/year from 2010)


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## Halifax Tar

What is RFRG ?


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## Nfld Sapper

Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity


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## 4Feathers

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> What is RFRG ?



Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity.


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## Journeyman

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Know your troops promote their welfare.
> 
> 200 dollars is a lot to a young NCM a month. If your that disconnected from that reality; that's a topic on it's own.


If a troop _chooses_ to have more children than he can afford to support without living penny-by-penny, from one payday to another, then there's only so much 'welfare promotion' _any_ leader can provide. 

I guess I could post a more sympathetic "there, there muffin; you're right -- that mean ol' government is picking on you because you're too fucking stupid to wear a condom."   :

But thanks for the lecture; by the time I was a Cpl, I'd already learned to be responsible for my own behaviour.


Oh, and look, according to Eye in the Sky, your 'hypothetical' friend is actually making _more_ money; guess you can wipe away those self-righteous tears now.


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## Nfld Sapper

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity





			
				4Feathers said:
			
		

> Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity.



Do I hear an echo?


 ;D


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## SupersonicMax

Journeyman said:
			
		

> If a troop _chooses_ to have more children than he can afford to support without living penny-by-penny, from one payday to another, then there's only so much 'welfare promotion' _any_ leader can provide.
> 
> I guess I could post a more sympathetic "there, there muffin; you're right -- that mean ol' government is picking on you because you're too ******* stupid to wear a condom."   :
> 
> But thanks for the lecture; by the time I was a Cpl, I'd already learned to be responsible for my own behaviour.
> 
> 
> Oh, and look, according to Eye in the Sky, your 'hypothetical' friend is actually making _more_ money; guess you can wipe away those self-righteous tears now.



Except that people make life decisions based upon what they are told they are making (note I did not say what they are GOING to make) . Then you take a fair chunk out of it. 

For ranks which have a lot of incentives, it's a non issue since most will increase in incentive and it should cover the increase in pension payments, however, for a CPL that has been a CPL for 4 years, he will essentially taking a pay cut for no added benefits. It may not be because he did bad financial planning, but because his salary was essentially cut.  That's not taking into account inflation.


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## George Wallace

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> What is RFRG ?



Not to be an echo, but it is called "Paying Attention to Detail".



> CANFORGEN 062/12 CMP 029/12 301516Z MAR 12
> 
> PAY/ALLOWANCES INCREASE AND CESSATION OF ACCUMULATION OF SEVERANCE PAY AND RESERVE FORCE RETIREMENT GRATUITY (RFRG)
> 
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> 1.  FURTHER TO THE MND PARLIAMENTARY ANNOUNCEMENT OF 28 MAR, THIS CANFORGEN IS TO INFORM ALL CF REG AND RES MEMBERS OF THE GOVT OF CANADA APPROVED PAY INCREASE .................................................................





In military writing, it is proper to always write out the long form of something first, followed by the abbreviation in brackets; as in the example above.


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## Journeyman

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Except that people make life decisions based upon what they are told they are making (note I did not say what they are GOING to make) . Then you take a fair chunk out of it.
> 
> For ranks which have a lot of incentives, it's a non issue since most will increase in incentive and it should cover the increase in pension payments, however, for a CPL that has been a CPL for 4 years, he will essentially taking a pay cut for no added benefits. It may not be because he did bad financial planning, but because his salary was essentially cut.  That's not taking into account inflation.


Thank you. I understand the theory of heartache; my experience is actually a bit more than RMC and a first engagement in Cold Lake. 

The _reality_ is, the CF isn't hurting near as much as some other elements of society. The fact that some hypothetical Cpl has decided to have a houseful of kids that he apparently can't support is simple whininess. 

I will now bow out to let the agony aunts wring their hands together and moan.


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## Eye In The Sky

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Except that people make life decisions based upon what they are told they are making (note I did not say what they are GOING to make) . Then you take a fair chunk out of it.
> 
> For ranks which have a lot of incentives, it's a non issue since most will increase in incentive and it should cover the increase in pension payments, however, for a CPL that has been a CPL for 4 years, he will essentially taking a pay cut for no added benefits. It may not be because he did bad financial planning, but because his salary was essentially cut.  That's not taking into account inflation.



Ummmm...I might have missed something but,_ what _ pay cut?  

Even us oar-puller Jnr Ranks are getting a pay raise in '11, '12 and '13.   ???

I don't know, maybe I am too grateful/thankful, but a $3k pay increase from '10-'13 doesn't look that bad; sure beats the days of pay freezes.

I know I'll loose some of that towards higher pension contributions, but heck I'll still have a pension at the end of the day, and that is not something everyone can say.  Unless I am as stupid as my ex said I was (which is possible) I'll retire with zero debt, a house paid for, and a pension.  I already know I am losing severance, but I can plan for that over the next 19 years.  I also know next year, I am getting 0.5% pay raise to help offset that.

Things could be alot worse.  But that is just me, I look at the whole picture:  5 weeks Ann Lve, Stat Holidays, Specials, med/dental benefits, SBD/OGTI that will look after my family, education benefits etc.  Add a $4k'ish raise between now and 01 Apr 13, and I like to think the grass is pretty green.

 :2c:


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## Remius

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Except that people make life decisions based upon what they are told they are making (note I did not say what they are GOING to make) . Then you take a fair chunk out of it.



The problem with that is that sometimes people make the wrong decisions about what they spend their money on.  Money gets tight?  You take a cut?  then you have to look at what you are actually spending on.  Down the street from where I live, there is a subsidised housing complex.  Every unit has a satelitte dish and in some cases two.  And almost everyone walking in and out has a smartphone of some time.  Same with university students that complain about tuition and eco-passes.  Just about all of them have an i-phone or blackberry.  I know someone who is in debt, three kids, two dogs etc etc.  Makes a good salary but likely would have problems if his salary were to drop 5%.  I can garantee he would not give up his premium cable package. 

You are paid for the job you do not how many kids or ex-wives you have.  When things get a little tough, like now, if you are not ready to make life adjustments then that's your problem.


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## dapaterson

EITS:  You aren't losing severance - you're just not accumulating any more.  As the CANFORGEN says, you'll be able to choose to take it now, take it when you retire, or take some now and some when you retire.

(And if you're medically released or, sometime in the future, retired because of some future FRP, you'll still get severance (less what you've already taken, of course).

And they're also cashing it out for you at the maximum rate (7 days per year).


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## Eye In The Sky

Roger that.  Poorly worded in my post.


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## Remius

In regards to the severance, a lot of people screwed themselves in the PS.  Seeing the fast cash.  I know a lot of people who just took it right away without looking at what they were losing in the long run had they rolled into an RRSP or waited until they retired to cash out at a higher rate.


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## fraserdw

Crantor said:
			
		

> In regards to the severance, a lot of people screwed themselves in the PS.  Seeing the fast cash.  I know a lot of people who just took it right away without looking at what they were losing in the long run had they rolled into an RRSP or waited until they retired to cash out at a higher rate.



Most in the PS who vote are already at max severance.  They screwed the guys coming behind them, as is the Baby Boomer way!  ANd now me! :crybaby:


----------



## ttlbmg

Small question: has anyone heard anything else in regards to LDA? Just wondering, although it probably wouldn't show up in the CANFORGEN for pay increases. Just wondering if someone knew.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Thank you. I understand the theory of heartache; my experience is actually a bit more than RMC and a first engagement in Cold Lake.



Thanks for discrediting my experience.  For absolutely no reason.  FWIW, I'm not in Cold Lake.



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> The _reality_ is, the CF isn't hurting near as much as some other elements of society. The fact that some hypothetical Cpl has decided to have a houseful of kids that he apparently can't support is simple whininess.



I understand, and strongly condone, the principle of personal responsibility.  All I am saying is that it will have an effect on some people, not necessarily because of bad planning, but net pay decrease.  People that could afford the life they wanted last year, may not be able to afford it next year.

EITS:

I meant a net pay cut.  Paying more into your pension plan will decrease your net pay for no added benefits. I'm sure you know this, but every year that your yearly relative salary increase is less than the inflation rate, you are essentially taking a pay cut.


----------



## blacktriangle

Uh oh, did someone say Net pay cut? Percentage please? 

(No I am not a whiner with lots of kids...I just want to see how much less I will spend on coffee and fast food, thanks!)


----------



## Halifax Tar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not to be an echo, but it is called "Paying Attention to Detail".
> 
> 
> 
> In military writing, it is proper to always write out the long form of something first, followed by the abbreviation in brackets; as in the example above.



Thank you George.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Spectrum said:
			
		

> Uh oh, did someone say Net pay cut? Percentage please?
> 
> (No I am not a whiner with lots of kids...I just want to see how much less I will spend on coffee and fast food, thanks!)



Again, this will be for someone that maxed out his incentive.  Taking a Cpl 4, No Spec Pay, in 2011, in Ontario, he would have made 2856$ a month net.  Now, add the increases from 2011 and 2012 and factor in the assumed pension payment increase, a Cpl 4 No Spec Pay, in 2012, would make (assuming 2011 tax rates): 2708$ a month net.  That's a 5.2% decrease in net pay, NOT considering inflation and likely increase in income tax for 2012.


----------



## FSTO

ttlbmg said:
			
		

> Small question: has anyone heard anything else in regards to LDA? Just wondering, although it probably wouldn't show up in the CANFORGEN for pay increases. Just wondering if someone knew.


I took a boo at the CANFORGEN this am and I think that all the environmental allowances (Sea Pay etc) are seeing an increase.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

Crantor said:
			
		

> In regards to the severance, a lot of people screwed themselves in the PS.  Seeing the fast cash.  I know a lot of people who just took it right away without looking at what they were losing in the long run had they rolled into an RRSP or waited until they retired to cash out at a higher rate.



ATV/boat  today or a little more money in twenty years to spend on Association dues and hearing aids...Can't decide...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

ttlbmg said:
			
		

> Small question: has anyone heard anything else in regards to LDA? Just wondering, although it probably wouldn't show up in the CANFORGEN for pay increases. Just wondering if someone knew.



Actually if you read the CANFORGEN its there.  1.5% increase for '11, '12 and '13.


----------



## Infanteer

I'll worry about finances at 60 after I hit 45.  For now, its's going to pay down some debt!


----------



## dogger1936

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I'll worry about finances at 60 after I hit 45.  For now, its's going to pay down some debt!



This will be the first lump sum I haven't already spent in my head long before it came!

Maybe some fancy hardwood flooring...


----------



## agc

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I'll worry about finances at 60 after I hit 45.  For now, its's going to pay down some debt!



I think everyone would be wise to think about this.  The severance pay is a really bad savings account.


----------



## Remius

That's the thing.  A girl I work with got 9000$ in severance from the PS at the current level she is at.  She was giddy she was getting 9gs and was blind to the fact that the union screwed her over.  9 years instead of the max se could have gotten.  To make matters worse, she could have gotten more money at retirement based on the fact that she would retire at a higher level.  People are going to spend this money or piss it away.  The smart ones will lock it away or wait.


----------



## The_Dictat

I was thinking about it... I am a Sgt with 15 years of service reservist with 11 years of full time service currently on a Cl BA. I elected to buy all my pensionable time in 2007... so I have a decent pension fund thus far...I also have an RRSP running (have to think of a plan B pension fund if I can't complete 25 years of full time pensionable service ).

I would take my 16000ish$ right away... Severance pay is taxable income. I would transfer all of it into my RRSP (I have the room) and get about 6500$ in tax return.  I would then put 5000$ in my TFSA and use the rest to buy a great gift from me to me.

OR I could wait until I retire lets say as a MWO at 25 years: that would be above 19000$ but It would still be below an estimated 3% revenue in an RRSP after 10 years...

Therefore I will most certainly choose to take it right away and invest into my RRSP

Remember : IT IS TAXABLE INCOME.

Dictat


----------



## Harris

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but as long as you transfer your gratuity into an RRSP right away (assuming you have the room) you do not pay any taxes.  On the flip side you also do not get to claim it on taxes as you never paid any on it.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

BTW-Still not on my BB...


----------



## Occam

Harris said:
			
		

> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but as long as you transfer your gratuity into an RRSP right away (assuming you have the room) you do not pay any interest taxes on the amount deposited.  On the flip side you also do not get to claim it on taxes as you never paid any on it.



Made a slight correction for you.  And yes, dumping that large amount into a RRSP would not result in a refund.  It just means you wouldn't have a huge tax liability on it.


----------



## Harris

Thanks.  Fixed it.


----------



## Brasidas

Ok,

Tossing out anything prior to my break in service, I have 4 years, 10 months effective 29 Feb 12. I wasn't a MCpl in February, but I will be in a few months.

I stop accumulating severance benefits 29 Feb 12, and I elect to take everything "now" some time between Dec 12 and Mar 13.

Do I get paid out as a MCpl when I elect, if I was a Cpl in Feb 12?


----------



## Grunt_031

> get about 6500$ in tax return.


 No return, you will just not have any tax liability.



> I could wait until I retire lets say as a MWO at 25 years


 You would not get any more severance accumulation (1 Mar 12) past this point. You will have the option to take it now, portion of or wait and get it on retirement.


----------



## Brasidas

Grunt_031 said:
			
		

> You would not get any more severance accumulation (1 Mar 12) past this point. You will have the option to take it now, portion of or wait and get it on retirement.



He wouldn't get any more time, but his pay would increase.

Eg. Still 77 days' pay, but as an MWO IPC y instead of Sgt IPC x.


----------



## Patrolman

I am posted this summer from an LDA unit to a non LDA unit so this pay raise will equal everthing out!


----------



## meni0n

So how is the severance calculated. Let's say I have 8 years in at the end of March, that 7 days a year is based on my current salary? Also, is it taxed at source or at the end of the year?


----------



## Grunt_031

> He wouldn't get any more time, but his pay would increase.
> 
> Eg. Still 77 days' pay, but as an MWO IPC y instead of Sgt IPC x.




I am assuming that it will work as it did for us in the PS.  The severance will be calculated on the Pay (IPC) as of 1 Mar 12.  If you elect to take severance on retirement the payout will be same amount as it was on 1 Mar 12.  As the above e.g.  it would be Sgt IPC x. As of 1 Mar 12 it not grow one cent :crybaby:.  The only benefit in deferring payout is the tax implications. You will be earning less in retirement therefore your tax bracket is lower and you pay less taxes on the amount.  If you take the cash now, you lose whatever your tax rate (provincial as well) is and usually an extra 5%. The wisest move in my opinion is transfer the amount to an RRSP and invest and allow it to grow ;D.

Alot of the older guys that voted this in, and thought this was the great lottery, didn't factor in an almost 45% tax rate.  their $25,000 quickly became $14,000.


----------



## MJP

I just wish it was retroactive.  My wife released last year at just under ten years service and saw nada.  Oh well thems the breaks.


----------



## Grunt_031

> F.  THE ELECTION PERIOD IS FROM MID DEC 12 TO MID MAR 13. CBI 204.40 DOES NOT AUTHORIZE ANY EXTENSIONS TO THE ELECTION PERIOD. ELECTION FORMS MUST BE RECEIVED NO LATER THAN THE LAST MOMENT OF THE 15TH DAY AFTER THE ELECTION PERIOD ENDS. MEMBERS WHOSE ELECTIONS FORMS ARE NOT RECEIVED BY THIS TIME WILL NOT REPEAT NOT BE ABLE TO GET A SEVERANCE BENEFIT UNTIL THEIR RELEASE



This is an important piece. There is a few in the PS that got lost in the mail and they now have to wait until retirement. If you do have to mail this in, send it *registered mail*. Hopefully there will be a more efficient  : system with the CF.


----------



## yoman

Grunt_031 said:
			
		

> Hopefully there will be a more efficient  : system with the CF.



When pigs fly


----------



## wesleyd

Grunt_031 said:
			
		

> I am assuming that it will work as it did for us in the PS.  The severance will be calculated on the Pay (IPC) as of 1 Mar 12.  If you elect to take severance on retirement the payout will be same amount as it was on 1 Mar 12.  As the above e.g.  it would be Sgt IPC x. As of 1 Mar 12 it not grow one cent :crybaby:.  The only benefit in deferring payout is the tax implications. You will be earning less in retirement therefore your tax bracket is lower and you pay less taxes on the amount.  If you take the cash now, you lose whatever your tax rate (provincial as well) is and usually an extra 5%. The wisest move in my opinion is transfer the amount to an RRSP and invest and allow it to grow ;D.
> 
> Alot of the older guys that voted this in, and thought this was the great lottery, didn't factor in an almost 45% tax rate.  their $25,000 quickly became $14,000.


From PSAC website
"Q: Is the payment in lieu of severance based on acting pay or the pay of my substantive position?

A: Substantive. As shown in the ratifications kits for the PA, SV and EB votes the clause of the severance pay article in the new collective agreement (PA:63, SV:61, EB:24) specifies that payments will be made based on the salary of your substantive position."
And
"Cash out
Q. What are my options for the severance cash out?

A. Every employee with at least one year of continuous employment will have three options for the cash out of accumulated voluntary severance calculated at the rate of one week of pay for each year of employment:

Immediately cash out their severance at their current rate of pay.
Retain the accumulated weeks of severance with a payout on termination or retirement at their exit rate of pay.
Cash out some of their severance (a “round” number of weeks) at their current rate of pay, with the remainder to be paid upon termination or retirement at their exit rate of pay."

To me this means you get paid severance at the rate you are paid the day you collect it, regardless of when you collect it. If you decide to cash out today it would be based on your current salary, if you wait until you retire it would be on that rate of pay you are at then. The accumulation of severance ceases not the rate of pay out.
Unless I am reading this wrong.
Thanks


----------



## Occam

As someone who recently retired from the CF, I can tell you that taking your severance pay in cash (unless it's a small portion of the total amount) is just crazy.  If you joined before 1996, even if you have made regular RRSP contributions over your career (resulting in no remaining RRSP headroom), there are still provisions for you to move some or all of a retirement gratuity to an RRSP, outside the limits imposed by your RRSP headroom.  If you haven't maximized your annual RRSP contributions, then there's no reason why anyone shouldn't be able to tax shelter all of it.  My entire severance pay amount has been sitting in an RRSP tailored for aggressive growth and moderate risk since the end of December.

This applies only to those who joined before 1996.  Everyone else has only their RRSP headroom to worry about.


----------



## navig8ur

Would I be correct in assuming that for the purposes of the income tax laws, severance pay can be transferred into an RRSP when no head room is available (pre 1996 qualifying years) even if one does not actually retire, as is going to be the case for many of us?


----------



## Occam

Valley Denizen said:
			
		

> Would I be correct in assuming that for the purposes of the income tax laws, severance pay can be transferred into an RRSP when no head room is available (pre 1996 qualifying years) even if one does not actually retire, as is going to be the case for many of us?



I'm not sure - but it would be worth a call to CRA.  The link I posted cites the applicable legislation - Income Tax Act s. 60(j.1).  This CRA link also explains it - http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/pyrll/rtrns/t4/spcl/trnsfr-eng.html.  The SISIP financial planner I saw for my pre-release from the CF/tax planning meeting was well up to speed on this and I took advantage of it for the tax return I just filed.

My guess is that you can still utilize this provision - though it would be nice if someone confirmed it and posted back here.   ;D


----------



## Biohazardxj

meni0n said:
			
		

> So how is the severance calculated. Let's say I have 8 years in at the end of March, that 7 days a year is based on my current salary? Also, is it taxed at source or at the end of the year?



Calculation as follows:  (Gross monthly pay at time of release) divided by 30 x 7 x number of completed years of service not to exceed 30.

Now, how this will change with the new CBI, I am not sure.


----------



## Occam

I just called CRA - I'd forgotten that it's still tax season and they're open on Saturdays.  The answer I got is that if the amount the CF is getting as a "retiring allowance" is treated the same as the amount which the federal public servants have been getting, then the pre-1996 amount is NOT eligible for transfer. (Presumably because it's no longer a retirement allowance and is now a payment in lieu of a retirement allowance??)  CRA also mentioned that if you had an eligible amount for transfer (pre-1996) it would appear in box 66 of next year's T4.  If it's not eligible, it'll appear as a box 67 amount.

The short answer was that if you're not retiring from the CF, then you must have the RRSP headroom to deposit it all without tax liability.

It didn't occur to me until after I hung up the phone to ask this question: If you retired from the CF right now (with 30 days notice), would it then be an eligible amount for transfer as a retirement gratuity, or is that provision for transferring a retirement gratuity essentially useless to CF members retiring voluntarily?  It would really suck if you guys just lost the ability to utilize that pre-1996 amount....

As always, you're best talking to a financial planner about this stuff - sooner than later.


----------



## Good2Golf

Harris said:
			
		

> Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but as long as you transfer your gratuity into an RRSP right away (assuming you have the room) you do not pay any taxes.  On the flip side you also do not get to claim it on taxes as you never paid any on it.



$2000 immediately transferable into an RRSP per complete or partial year of service prior to, and including 1996.  As Occam notes above, this may only apply to personnel retiring outright, vice electing to take the severance pay now, yet still serve - confirmation with CRA and a planner is best here.  

As I see it, the only significant advantage of drawing your severance pay now would be to invest tax-free now.  Inability to transfer directly into an RRSP would significantly reduce that advantage, but there should still also be cumulative room in TFSAs if you have not yet invested that way.

Regards
G2G


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> As I see it, the only significant advantage of drawing your severance pay now would be to invest tax-free now.  Inability to transfer directly into an RRSP would significantly reduce that advantage, but there should still also be cumulative room in TFSAs if you have not yet invested that way.



I would add that, for those with consumer debt where they are paying more than, say 9% interest, there may be value in taking it as cash to pay of their debt, and then use the newly available available income to slap into their RRSPs on a dollar cost average basis.

While we are talking RRSPs, my wife is now retired, without a pension.  If I use the severance package to max out her lifetime RRSP room, how long does it have to stay in there before I can remove it, paying her nominal tax rate vice my somewhat larger one?


----------



## Occam

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I would add that, for those with consumer debt where they are paying more than, say 9% interest, there may be value in taking it as cash to pay of their debt, and then use the newly available available income to slap into their RRSPs on a dollar cost average basis.



We were in that situation late last year, and the SISIP financial planner, as well as the bank(s) we approached were of the opinion that it was still best to contribute the amount to the RRSP, and use a secured line of credit (or was it a secured loan - I can't remember) to pay down the high interest debt.  The rate they quoted us was at prime + 1% or something crazy like that.  We came into some money so didn't have to take that route, but it would be worth it to check into all available options.


----------



## aesop081

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I would add that, for those with consumer debt where they are paying more than, say 9% interest, there may be value in taking it as cash to pay of their debt, and then use the newly available available income to slap into their RRSPs on a dollar cost average basis.



That is one option i am exploring. Just have to crunch the numbers. On other option i need to explore is to take the cash now (taxed) and dump it on my mortgage. If the amount saved in interest exceeds the taxation, could be a winner.

Good thing there's a fair bit of time to think this over.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

Any of you financial wizards able to advise between a boat, an ATV or a snowmobile?


----------



## Good2Golf

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> Any of you financial wizards able to advise between a boat, an ATV or a snowmobile?



Those are for amateurs....get an airplane!  :nod:


----------



## GAP

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Those are for amateurs....get an airplane!  :nod:



Only if you get to jump out of it, otherwise you're restricted to those little roads they put for landing them on. The long roads are being hogged by those little tiny beetles crawling along them.......oh, they're cars?  Who Knew!!  


and besides, everytime you want to park it, you have to come down!!


----------



## aesop081

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> get an airplane!  :nod:



Ok, i have a new option !!!!!!

 :nod:


----------



## Good2Golf

GAP said:
			
		

> Only if you get to jump out of it, otherwise you're restricted to those little roads they put for landing them on. The long roads are being hogged by those little tiny beetles crawling along them.......oh, they're cars?  Who Knew!!
> 
> 
> and besides, everytime you want to park it, you have to come down!!



GAP, the thing is, you don't even have to fly it to lose money!  Tango2Barvo looked like he wanted to burn money, so I provided what I thought was, short of actually burning the money, the best way to see your money disappear.  ;D


----------



## Remius

To get real value for your money get a hovercraft.


----------



## Pusser

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> While we are talking RRSPs, my wife is now retired, without a pension.  If I use the severance package to max out her lifetime RRSP room, how long does it have to stay in there before I can remove it, paying her nominal tax rate vice my somewhat larger one?



You would have to do some serious number crunching on this one (get some professional advice).  As I understand the rules (and I am no expert), you would still have to pay tax at source at YOUR rate in order to get the money.  Then, when you put into your wife's RRSP, she would get a tax refund when she files, but at HER rate.  I would think (assuming her rate is lower than yours) that this would result in a net loss and not be worth it.  As for how long it has to stay in the RRSP is more up to how it's invested, not the fact that it's in an RRSP.  In other words, once you put it into the RRSP, you should be able to take it out again right away, unless the investment you chose makes you pay a penalty for early withdrawal.

At this point I should illustrate a common mistake that people make with RRSPs.  An RRSP is not an investment in itself.  It is a *plan* or tax regulation under which investments are made.  So an RRSP can include, stocks, bonds, GICs, mutual funds and even savings accounts.  You can withdraw money from an RRSP at anytime without penalty, unless the specific investment itself (e.g. a mutual fund) levies a penalty for early withdrawal.  However, keep in mind that you will have to pay tax on any withdrawal at that point (not a penalty in the truest sense).  The exception to this would be a "locked-in" RRSP, which you are simply not allowed to withdraw from until you reach retirement age.  Locked-in RRSPs are usually used in cases where an individual has left an employer and the former employer has paid out their pension.

Another thing I would like to point out is that the last time folks were getting large payouts all at once (e.g. Leave buy-back plan and FRP) it was made very clear that payouts would be taxed at source unless members had permission from Revenue Canada (now CRA) to waive that regulation.  In other words, if your intent is to put money into an RRSP, be prepared to contact CRA and request permission to do this.  Hopefully the CBI will clarify the requirements and there will be avenues set up to facilitate this.

The more I'm thinking about this, I'm inclined to elect the split option.  I'm thinking that I will take as much severance now as I need to max out my RRSP, then wait until retirement to take the rest (when presumably it would be a retirement allowance) and apply the $2000 per year prior to 1996 rule to put the rest into my RRSP.  I'll have to check to see if that will fly.  If that's the case, there's a good possibility I could receive my entire severance tax free!  Well, at least until I want to actually buy groceries... ;D


----------



## GAP

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> GAP, the thing is, you don't even have to fly it to lose money!  Tango2Barvo looked like he wanted to burn money, so I provided what I thought was, short of actually burning the money, the best way to see your money disappear.  ;D



oh yeah, easy peasy!!


----------



## GAP

What about a joint RRSP/TFSA/ or something that allows him to gift it to her, directly into an RRSP, etc....


----------



## Occam

I think anyone wanting to take advantage of the pre-1996 amounts is going to be SOL.  See Q11/A11 at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/pi-as-eng.asp.  They're not calling it Severance pay, they're calling it Payment In Lieu of severance pay.  I'd be pissed if it affected me...


----------



## liams mom

Wow! Interesting reading. 

Let's see if I understand. Let's assume this severance pay is called a retirement payout and is treated as such by tax law, even though my DH is not retired or retiring any time soon. We won't know that for sure until we investigate some more.

 My DH has 21 years of service, is a WO and has no plans to retire. 

 Scenario ONE: Under the new severance rules he can take his severance pay now as a WO and roll it into an RRSP. No tax implications until the day we withdraw the money, which won't be until he's retired and likely in his 70s. As far as I can see he has lots of room between his RRSP and TFSA to do this. It would be just like a few other times where we rolled monies from different payouts straight into RRSPs ( I think we did this a few times when he was IR). However,  by this fall we must elect to do so by submitting paper work.

SCENARIO TWO:
 OR we can wait until he actually retires and take the exact same chunk of cash (since it appears that the payout will based on what he makes NOW not on his best years) and do the exact same thing, roll it over and no tax implications.  

If this is all correct then why wouldn't we take the payout now and make interest on the money by investing it for the next few years. Assuming he retires in 4 years we will still have made money for the 4 years on the payout (assuming our investments make money- ha ha!).  This seems a better idea.

Of course, no one is sure yet of the details. So maybe the payout will be based on your pay level on the day you retire if you wait (higher amount of payout due to incentives, promotions and raises in the remaining years)  OR maybe the pay out won't be deemed to be a retirement payout for tax purposes and you won't be able to just roll it over into an RRSP, unless you do actually retire this year. Interesting!

HAve a got that straight??? Or are there things we need to consider since he joined before 1996?


----------



## FSTO

Pusser said:
			
		

> You would have to do some serious number crunching on this one (get some professional advice).  As I understand the rules (and I am no expert), you would still have to pay tax at source at YOUR rate in order to get the money.  Then, when you put into your wife's RRSP, she would get a tax refund when she files, but at HER rate.  I would think (assuming her rate is lower than yours) that this would result in a net loss and not be worth it.  As for how long it has to stay in the RRSP is more up to how it's invested, not the fact that it's in an RRSP.  In other words, once you put it into the RRSP, you should be able to take it out again right away, unless the investment you chose makes you pay a penalty for early withdrawal.
> 
> At this point I should illustrate a common mistake that people make with RRSPs.  An RRSP is not an investment in itself.  It is a *plan* or tax regulation under which investments are made.  So an RRSP can include, stocks, bonds, GICs, mutual funds and even savings accounts.  You can withdraw money from an RRSP at anytime without penalty, unless the specific investment itself (e.g. a mutual fund) levies a penalty for early withdrawal.  However, keep in mind that you will have to pay tax on any withdrawal at that point (not a penalty in the truest sense).  The exception to this would be a "locked-in" RRSP, which you are simply not allowed to withdraw from until you reach retirement age.  Locked-in RRSPs are usually used in cases where an individual has left an employer and the former employer has paid out their pension.
> 
> Another thing I would like to point out is that the last time folks were getting large payouts all at once (e.g. Leave buy-back plan and FRP) it was made very clear that payouts would be taxed at source unless members had permission from Revenue Canada (now CRA) to waive that regulation.  In other words, if your intent is to put money into an RRSP, be prepared to contact CRA and request permission to do this.  Hopefully the CBI will clarify the requirements and there will be avenues set up to facilitate this.
> 
> The more I'm thinking about this, I'm inclined to elect the split option.  I'm thinking that I will take as much severance now as I need to max out my RRSP, then wait until retirement to take the rest (when presumably it would be a retirement allowance) and apply the $2000 per year prior to 1996 rule to put the rest into my RRSP.  I'll have to check to see if that will fly.  If that's the case, there's a good possibility I could receive my entire severance tax free!  Well, at least until I want to actually buy groceries... ;D



Will the severence be paid out at your current rank? Or let say you get promoted a couple of years down the road, will you be paid out at your rank at retirement?


----------



## smale436

I'm having a hard time figuring that out after reading the Canforgen a dozen times now. I'm trying to figure out the best option for me as a Spec Cpl with 7 years in and a RRSP that is already maxed out. Although next years contribution room would probably around 3500-4000 dollars.


----------



## blacktriangle

Yeah I am also curious as well...honestly for the amount I probably have accumulated, it won't be much. So I am wondering what the best thing to do would be? 

I didn't even know we used to get any of this...


----------



## Occam

Seems timely to post this.  Get in and avoid the rush, I would say...



http://sisip.ca/en/Planning_e/services_e.asp

Advice

    Personal Money Management: Cash flow, debt and risk (insurance) management
    Buying or Leasing an Automobile
    Buying a Home
    *Establishing a Registered Retirement Savings Plans - RRSP*
    Establishing a Registered Education Savings Plans - RESP
    Investment Products: GICs and no-load Mutual Funds (where available)
    Canadian Forces Group Retirement Savings Plan (CFGroupRSP)
    *Release & Transition Planning - second career*
    Retirement Planning
   * Tax Planning, including income tax preparation and E-Filing *

The SISIP FS Financial Planning service is available for a fee of *$5.00 per month for all ranks from recruits to Master Corporals inclusively, and to Officer Cadets, Second Lieutenants and Lieutenants (increase to $6.00 per month effective April 1, 2012)*. For all other ranks, and former CF members, our services are provided at the rate of $10.00 per month (increase to $12.00 per month effective April 1, 2012).

The SISIP FS Financial Planning service fee *includes one free annual basic tax return preparation per registered family*. Additional basic tax return preparation is offered to financial planning clients for an additional competitive fee of $40.00 plus $70.00 per hour for additional schedules and information that must be processed.

*All financial planners are directly employed by SISIP FS and are paid a salary only*. Financial planners also act as agents of FundEX Investments Inc. when engaged in the sale of mutual funds. *They do not receive commissions*, and all trailer fees are paid directly to SISIP FS.


----------



## cdnsailor

I retire this July with 35 + years. I am hoping that this is not going to screw things up for me with regards to placing some of my Severance into a RRSP and using some to pay off debts.


----------



## stellarpanther

I heard the rumor yesterday at work that we were going to start paying 50/50 for pension but haven't seen anything.  Does anyone know when this will take affect?


----------



## SupersonicMax

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> I heard the rumor yesterday at work that we were going to start paying 50/50 for pension but haven't seen anything.  Does anyone know when this will take affect?



It doesn't actually give specific numbers for the CF Pension Plan.  All it says is that the Public Sector Employees will pay 50/50 eventually and that the CF, RCMP and MPs will have a comparable adjustment.


----------



## old fart

FSTO said:
			
		

> Will the severence be paid out at your current rank? Or let say you get promoted a couple of years down the road, will you be paid out at your rank at retirement?



Question/Answers 8 and 9 apply...

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/pi-as-eng.asp

Q8.   What rate of pay will be used to determine the payment in lieu?

A8.   The payment in lieu of a severance benefit will be based on the CF member’s substantive rank and pay increment for the following effective dates:

1 October 2011, Colonel and above or Lieutenant-Colonel Legal and above;
date of promotion if promoted substantively to Colonel or Lieutenant-Colonel Legal between 1 October 2011 and 29 February 2012; and
1 March 2012, NCMs and all other Officers.

Q9.   What rate of pay will be used to determine the severance benefit upon release?

A9.   Should a CF member elect to receive a severance benefit upon release, then the monthly rate of pay and pay increment for the member’s substantive rank in effect on the date of release or transfer, from the Regular Force or Primary Reserve Force, will be used to calculate the final severance benefit.

In my own case, my anniversary date for severance was 15 April....so I am a happy to see the pro-rated aspect....

Glad to see these increases, although as I am entering what I expect to be my last 12 months for 35...the impact wont be that great...although I could stay for a a few years yet to realize the impact...At any rate, every little helps!!


----------



## Occam

cdnsailor said:
			
		

> I retire this July with 35 + years. I am hoping that this is not going to screw things up for me with regards to placing some of my Severance into a RRSP and using some to pay off debts.



It doesn't appear so, based on Q9/A9 of the FAQ in the post preceding this one.  Looking at all the references, if you draw your severance before retirement, you get a "payment in lieu of severance pay", which is a non-eligible amount for transferring to an RRSP under the pre-1996 amounts (you can still use your accumulated RRSP headroom to dump the money into).  If you draw it on release, you're getting a true "severance gratuity", for which you can use the $2k per year of service prior to 1996 to deposit RRSP funds, in addition to any unused RRSP headroom.

Again, talk to CRA and a financial planner.  If you're over 35+ years of service, I certainly hope you've availed yourself of at least one SCAN seminar - if not, book yourself ASAP, because release benefits and tax implications are discussed as part of the SCAN seminar.


----------



## Pusser

cdnsailor said:
			
		

> I retire this July with 35 + years. I am hoping that this is not going to screw things up for me with regards to placing some of my Severance into a RRSP and using some to pay off debts.



If you're retiring this July, you will be out before the election period even begins, so there this policy will not affect you.


----------



## Pusser

liams mom said:
			
		

> Wow! Interesting reading.
> 
> Let's see if I understand. Let's assume this severance pay is called a retirement payout and is treated as such by tax law, even though my DH is not retired or retiring any time soon. We won't know that for sure until we investigate some more.
> 
> My DH has 21 years of service, is a WO and has no plans to retire.
> 
> Scenario ONE: Under the new severance rules he can take his severance pay now as a WO and roll it into an RRSP. No tax implications until the day we withdraw the money, which won't be until he's retired and likely in his 70s. *As far as I can see he has lots of room between his RRSP and TFSA *to do this. It would be just like a few other times where we rolled monies from different payouts straight into RRSPs ( I think we did this a few times when he was IR). However,  by this fall we must elect to do so by submitting paper work.
> 
> SCENARIO TWO:
> OR we can wait until he actually retires and take the exact same chunk of cash (*since it appears that the payout will based on what he makes NOW not on his best years*) and do the exact same thing, roll it over and no tax implications.
> 
> If this is all correct then why wouldn't we take the payout now and make interest on the money by investing it for the next few years. Assuming he retires in 4 years we will still have made money for the 4 years on the payout (assuming our investments make money- ha ha!).  This seems a better idea.
> 
> Of course, no one is sure yet of the details. So maybe the payout will be based on your pay level on the day you retire if you wait (higher amount of payout due to incentives, promotions and raises in the remaining years)  OR maybe the pay out won't be deemed to be a retirement payout for tax purposes and you won't be able to just roll it over into an RRSP, unless you do actually retire this year. Interesting!
> 
> HAve a got that straight??? Or are there things we need to consider since he joined before 1996?



You can only put *after-tax* dollars into a TFSA.  In other words, you cannot shelter the payout by putting it into a TFSA.  It will be taxed at source.  However, you will not be taxed on any of the income generated in future by that investment.

The CANFORGEN and the Q&A Page (link in an earlier post) are both pretty clear that taking the payout now will be at your current pay level, but at retirement will be at your retirement pay level.  So yes, waiting will most likely see you paid out at a higher level.  However, the question now becomes whether you can make more money by taking it and investing it now, even though it's paid out at a lower rate, than by waiting to receive it at a higher rate upon retirement.  My guess is you can make more money by taking it now and investing it, but I still have some numbers to crunch.


----------



## liams mom

Thanks Pusser!

You are right about the TFSA. So we don't  have nearly enough room in his RRSPs.  HOpefully we can split it between the room he has available and the room I have available.

Our investments are very slow and steady in nature, since we are both conservative in our finiancial dealings. I doubt we will make more by investing it over the next 4 or 5 years than he could make through improvements to salary if we wait until release.

Definitely have to crunch the numbers! Too bad there is no sure fire way to know when promotions might be forthcoming!


----------



## dapaterson

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> While we are talking RRSPs, my wife is now retired, without a pension.  If I use the severance package to max out her lifetime RRSP room, how long does it have to stay in there before I can remove it, paying her nominal tax rate vice my somewhat larger one?



If you have RRSP room, you can deposit into a spousal RRSP - the money is hers, but you get the tax relief and it's your RRSP room that is used.  I believe attribution rules require the funds remain in the RRSP for at least 3 years before she can withdraw it and have it taxed in her hands instead of in yours.


----------



## Journeyman

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Thanks for discrediting my experience.  For absolutely no reason.


Au contraire, I was simply indicating that you have never commanded junior soldiers, let alone having counselled them on inadequate life planning.  
It gets back to that whole "opinion" versus "_informed_ opinion" thing.


----------



## jollyjacktar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you have RRSP room, you can deposit into a spousal RRSP - the money is hers, but you get the tax relief and it's your RRSP room that is used.  I believe attribution rules require the funds remain in the RRSP for at least 3 years before she can withdraw it and have it taxed in her hands instead of in yours.


Slightly confused here...  I thought that someone posted the severance going into an RRSP would not give you any tax relief?


----------



## meni0n

It also states that we have until mid march 2013 to make our choice but the calculation papers won't be sent until the fall. Does that mean we have to wait for these papers to arrive or do I just go to the OR and say hey this is what I want to do with my severance?


----------



## dapaterson

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Slightly confused here...  I thought that someone posted the severance going into an RRSP would not give you any tax relief?



No.  If you take the severance into your hands immediately and do not put it directly into an RRSP you'll have tax withheld at source.   If you roll it directly into an RRSP, you'll have the following income:

Regular Salary + Severance - RRSP contributions.  Since amount of severance = amount of RRSP contributions, the net effect is zero.  SO while you won't get a massive tax return at the end of the year, you will also not be paying taxes on the RRSP until you withdraw the amounts.

Consult a financial planner for help.  Do not rely on random guys on the internet (including me).


----------



## jollyjacktar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> No.  If you take the severance into your hands immediately and do not put it directly into an RRSP you'll have tax withheld at source.   If you roll it directly into an RRSP, you'll have the following income:
> 
> Regular Salary + Severance - RRSP contributions.  Since amount of severance = amount of RRSP contributions, the net effect is zero.  SO while you won't get a massive tax return at the end of the year, you will also not be paying taxes on the RRSP until you withdraw the amounts.
> 
> Consult a financial planner for help.  Do not rely on random guys on the internet (including me).



Yeah, that's me misunderstanding.  Has been a loooong day at work and the mind is not as sharp as it could be.  I was thinking of tax relief re: getting some dough back on return (back end) vs getting the severance free of raping on the front end.


----------



## armyvern

Whhhhoooo! New chaps ... and boots.  ;D


----------



## GAP

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Whhhhoooo! New chaps ... and boots.  ;D



 :rofl:


----------



## Journeyman

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Whhhhoooo! New chaps ... and boots.  ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

meni0n said:
			
		

> It also states that we have until mid march 2013 to make our choice but the calculation papers won't be sent until the fall. Does that mean we have to wait for these papers to arrive or do I just go to the OR and say hey this is what I want to do with my severance?



I believe you have to wait for the papers and then the election period between mid Dec/mid Mar;  I am not expecting to see any actual $ for this until FY 13/14.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you have RRSP room, you can deposit into a spousal RRSP - the money is hers, but you get the tax relief and it's your RRSP room that is used.  I believe attribution rules require the funds remain in the RRSP for at least 3 years before she can withdraw it and have it taxed in her hands instead of in yours.



Merci!


----------



## ARMY_101

Just curious, are there any standing orders re: posting CANFORGENS in public spaces?  On the one hand they're marked unclassified, yet on the other the CF itself does not post CANFORGENS on its public site (only DIN).

CANFORGEN 136/06 more deals with posting photos and information of OPSEC and PERSEC online, not orders.

Is there anything laying out whether those on the DIN can repost this information?


----------



## aesop081

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> yet on the other the CF itself does not post CANFORGENS on its public site (only DIN).



The information in the CANFORGEN discussed here is publicly available here:

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/pib-asd-eng.asp

Other CANFORGENs are routinely available on official DND webpages, such as here for example:

http://www.cfga.forces.gc.ca/can/canforgen-127-08-eng.asp

https://www.cfpsa.com/en/psp/messes/docs/CANFORGEN%20191e.pdf

http://www.rmc.ca/aca/ams-sma/pro/canforgen-142-08-eng.asp


----------



## dapaterson

The new CBI, 204.40, has been posted.  It's on the internet at: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/204-eng.asp


The ten pages of the CBI, taken from the DWAN PDF and including the election form) is in the attached PDF.


----------



## charlesm

For us reservists, I guess it may be a good thing that the pension office has taken so long to not even calculate our buyback part of our pensions. Now I can get my RFRG put it into and RRSP and then use it to buyback my pension!!

This almost seems that it was planned!!


----------



## fraserdw

Never accuse us of planning!!!


----------



## Sub_Guy

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The new CBI, 204.40, has been posted.  It's on the internet at: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/204-eng.asp



I would have thought they would have just updated to 2012, the pay rates at that link are as of March 2011.  There is still the 2012 adjustment to take into account.   Nevermind.   

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pay-sol/pr-sol/index-eng.asp


----------



## Jungle

charlesm said:
			
		

> This almost seems that it was planned!!



If it had been planned, it wouldn't happen.


----------



## Journeyman

Jungle said:
			
		

> If it had been planned, it wouldn't happen.


So cynical.   :not-again:


----------



## Jungle

Journeyman said:
			
		

> So cynical.   :not-again:



I learned from the best


----------



## Journeyman

:nod:


----------



## armyvern

I just arrived at this thread due to a crackbook linking to it (else I'd have never found my way to this site  ) ... Prepare yourselves. 



GAP: Hold steady on the camera dammit.


----------



## Res Release Clerk

For reservists : all the release clerks (including myself) are going to the Release seminar in a couple weeks. We'll know a lot more then on how this will work for the interim period for people releasing between March 1st 2012 and the time they send the letters at the end of the year. 

The canforgen says that the RFRG stops being accumulated on March 1st 2012. What happens with all the release files that we have with people whose release date is between March 1st and the start of the election period this Fall? The way I understand it, if you were not released on March 1st then you are eligible for the new RFDRG calculations, which would make a LOT of people very very happy. 

Kind of the same thing when the RFRG was first implemented. People whose release date was even a single day after RFRG started were eligible for it.


----------



## stellarpanther

Hopefully some people are better at math than I am.  How much should a Cpl 4 expect to get in back pay in mid May?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Call it $950 before taxes.


----------



## Pusser

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Hopefully some people are better at math than I am.  How much should a Cpl 4 expect to get in back pay in mid May?



Umm.  It's really not that difficult.  Take your new rate of pay, subtract the old rate of pay, multiply the difference by the the number of months you were paid at the old rate and voila!  This number is the amount of back pay to which you're entitled.  

Now, apply the taxes and write a cheque to the government! ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Right, so approx $950 minus taxes means...

Cpl 4 should get about $2.59 clear.   >  (only for those of us in lovely NS)


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Cpl 4 should get about $2.59 clear.   >  (only for those of us in lovely NS)



Here in the centre of the universe, it will pay for the health premium i am forced to shell out even though i do not use the provincial system, do not even get a provincial card or even have dependants who use the provincial system.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Depending on how much that is, I'd trade it for the difference in income tax (approx. $3100 more a year in NS than Ont based on a $60k/year income).

Is this premium above and beyond income tax?  Never heard of it.


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Is this premium above and beyond income tax?  Never heard of it.



$750 based on my current pay and yes, it is over and above my taxes. Anyone living in this sh*thole province and making $20k or more must pay. CF members not exempt.

Not quite the tax a**f**k of living in NS (I'm  familiar with that one as well) but it sure came as a surprise.


----------



## PMedMoe

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Here in the centre of the universe, it will pay for the health premium i am forced to shell out even though i do not use the provincial system, do not even get a provincial card or even have dependants who use the provincial system.



Oh, don't open that can of worms again.  Several of us got slapped down for complaining about it:  

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41868.0.html


----------



## Teeps74

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Oh, don't open that can of worms again.  Several of us got slapped down for complaining about it:
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41868.0.html



Oh, why not? I pay an annual health care premium which I am NOT ALLOWED to use unless it is an emergency. Further, if I read the Blue Cross thing correct, anytime I do use provincial health care the CF covers the costs. It is a fact that I pay $600 Ontario Health Care premium on my annual income tax return.

(I have no problem at all paying my share of services I receive... But paying for something I am not allowed to receive is horrifically wrong on so many levels.)


----------



## PMedMoe

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Oh, why not? I pay an annual health care premium which I am NOT ALLOWED to use unless it is an emergency. Further, if I read the Blue Cross thing correct, anytime I do use provincial health care the CF covers the costs. It is a fact that I pay $600 Ontario Health Care premium on my annual income tax return.
> 
> (I have no problem at all paying my share of services I receive... But paying for something I am not allowed to receive is horrifically wrong on so many levels.)



And I completely agree with you.  It seems that others don't.   And we don't use the premium in an emergency either.  Any time a CF member goes to a civilian hospital, clinic, etc, the CF pays for it in full.


----------



## jollyjacktar

It's no different in my eyes than paying EI premiums.  Something I cannot qualify to use, but it does go towards the greater good my fellow citizens.  I may not be keen on it, but it's something I have no say in either like many of our deductions.


----------



## aesop081

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> but it does go towards the greater good my fellow citizens.



The current state of Ontario's health care system says otherwise. 

Doesn't matter much to me now anyways, i'm out of here this summer. I think of it as my "welcome and goodbye tax" for 10 months in the province.

F**k you very much.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I was thinking more of the EI per se.  I cannot speak on the ON health care system, seeing as I am busy getting raped along with my fellow NS by Dexter and crew.


----------



## MedCorps

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Oh, why not? I pay an annual health care premium which I am NOT ALLOWED to use unless it is an emergency. Further, if I read the Blue Cross thing correct, anytime I do use provincial health care the CF covers the costs. It is a fact that I pay $600 Ontario Health Care premium on my annual income tax return.
> 
> (I have no problem at all paying my share of services I receive... But paying for something I am not allowed to receive is horrifically wrong on so many levels.)



Someone really needs to sort this out...  It is one of the easier fixes (in the grand scheme of problems to be fixed) I suspect and would not only increase CF member satisfaction but could make some young MP look good in the media.   

MC


----------



## Eye In The Sky

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I was thinking more of the EI per se.  I cannot speak on the ON health care system, seeing as I am busy getting raped along with my fellow NS by Dexter and crew.



Come on, how else are the MLAs going to pay for all the generators they installed in their homes bought, out of a sense of responsibility and good government, for the senior citizens building close to their home but thought it was better to keep in their basements and held there for safe keeping.   >


----------



## Teeps74

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> It's no different in my eyes than paying EI premiums.  Something I cannot qualify to use, but it does go towards the greater good my fellow citizens.  I may not be keen on it, but it's something I have no say in either like many of our deductions.



Actually, in the future, you may be drawing EI... Remember that our CRA is still 55 with extensions to 60. If you still have bills and what not at 60, what do you do to fill the income gap? EI... Why not, pay into it, you are entitled to it. Draw it.


----------



## aesop081

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Actually, in the future, you may be drawing EI... Remember that our CRA is still 55 with extensions to 60. If you still have bills and what not at 60, what do you do to fill the income gap? EI... Why not, pay into it, you are entitled to it. Draw it.



EI benefit - CF pension payment = What you get.

Most times, that works out to $0.00


----------



## 421_434_226

Your pension is not subtracted from your EI as it is not considered to be employment income, take this from one of the evil double dippers, at least here, can't say for certain from other provinces.


----------



## aesop081

Ack.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Come on, how else are the MLAs going to pay for all the generators they installed in their homes bought, out of a sense of responsibility and good government, for the senior citizens building close to their home but thought it was better to keep in their basements and held there for safe keeping.   >


I cannot wait until I see Tricky Dicky go down for that one.  Well, frankly all of them the dirty bastards.  Too bad they cannot take the NSURB down with them when they fall.


----------



## Teeps74

Most double dippers I know are (were) drawing EI during the nuisance break. EI is a different pool, and as far as I know, there is zero conflict in drawing EI and pension. 

Now, someone with a bigger sexier and more tax/benefit oriented brain might be able to correct me on that...


----------



## mariomike

"Employment Insurance(EI) and the various types of earnings":
http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/ei/information/earnings_info.shtml#Pensions


----------



## jollyjacktar

And here I was always told/under the impression that we could not draw EI as we were finishing our contracts and had a pension.


----------



## GAP

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> And here I was always told/under the impression that we could not draw EI as we were finishing our contracts and had a pension.



If you start receiving your pension, then go work for a company to accumulate 600 hrs., your pension is not classed as income, but your EI is based on the rate you were paid at the new job.


----------



## 421_434_226

Correct, sorry I was not as clear as I could have been, you do have start a different job to be eligible for EI.


----------



## Teeps74

Gizmo 421 said:
			
		

> Correct, sorry I was not as clear as I could have been, you do have start a different job to be eligible for EI.



Why? If you are forced out due to age, why would you have to start another job to draw benefits? If you quit because you are tired, sure... Quitting is a dis-qualifier for EI, but end of contract employer laying you off (due to age) is one of those things we should be able to draw EI for.

Now, this said, I am not an expert on this, nor am I aware of EI rules... Gimme a day or two, and I will see what I can dig up (in the mean time, the wife is glaring at me, tapping her foot and glancing sideways at the BBQ... I am guessing she is expecting me to cook tonight...)


----------



## armyvern

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Oh, why not? I pay an annual health care premium which I am NOT ALLOWED to use unless it is an emergency. Further, if I read the Blue Cross thing correct, anytime I do use provincial health care the CF covers the costs. It is a fact that I pay $600 Ontario Health Care premium on my annual income tax return.
> 
> (I have no problem at all paying my share of services I receive... But paying for something I am not allowed to receive is horrifically wrong on so many levels.)



It doesn't have to be an emergency; for some of us service members, using provincial facilities is routine due to follow-ups or services we require. Not all CF members require to actually use these services, but, then again, most Ontarians don't routinely utilize these services any more often than we do either. It may have been 'for emergencies only' back in the day when the CF actually ran/managed honest-to-goodness hospital facilities but it has been many years since that was a fact. In my mind, if the CF had retained that capability, then perhaps the point that the CF doesn't use provincial facilities 'as a habit' would still be valid.

MRI, CT Scan, XRay, ... head downtown. Sick after working hours? Head downtown.

Personally, I can be found in a civilian facility once every year for my annual CT scan & MRI. And in with my civilian specialist for my 'head' checkup once per year too. Every 2nd year for my skin cancer follow-up with another ...

750 bucks? Absolutely - much cheaper than paying out of my own pocket for any services I require. The CF pays for it all? So do a whole lot of civilian employers in Ontario, but those residents are kicking in 750 on their taxes towards the total costs of healthcare too. I don't have any issues with that.

Besides, I'd much rather still be paying Ontario taxes, even with that 750, than taxes I am currently paying in Quebec or that I have previously paid in NB, PEI, NS, Labrador. Ontario has some pretty excellent services that are absolutely cheaper on the taxes than some other CF members get to experience outside of the center of the nation.

My .02 cents worth.

Edited to add: Just went through the myth of "no EI" with 9er domestic the other day. My dad certainly collected it when he retired from the CF - and before he had another employer.


----------



## jollyjacktar

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Edited to add: Just went through the myth of "no EI" with 9er domestic the other day. My dad certainly collected it when he retired from the CF - and before he had another employer.


I think that I should have enough stamps to qualify after this many years.   ;D


----------



## 421_434_226

I am under the impression that you may apply for EI immediately upon retirement, the problem being that if you do at that time your pension will be considered as income and will be deducted from your EI. If you re qualify at a different job your pension may not be considered as income and may not be deducted. As per the service Canada website.

All I actually know for sure is that when I retired I was informed by EI that my pension was more then I would receive from them thus having a net value of 0, although I could apply if I wanted to. After I had re qualified I was then able to collect EI during my annuitant break. And being an evil double dipper I did.  >

"Pension income resulting from any employment constitutes earnings for benefit purposes. These include:

    Employer pension plans, including employment as a member of the Armed Forces or any police force. This also applies to pensions from employment in another country, whether or not the employment was insurable.
    The Canada Pension Plan
    The Quebec Pension Plan

Pensions income resulting indirectly from employment do not always constitute earnings. In the following cases, all or part of the pension is not considered to be earnings:

    The pension of an individual who re qualifies for EI benefits after the date on which payment of the pension begins.
    Disability pensions from employment as well as disability pensions from the Canada Pension Plan or Quebec Pension Plan"


----------



## armyvern

Gizmo 421 said:
			
		

> I am under the impression that you may apply for EI immediately upon retirement, the problem being that if you do at that time your pension will be considered as income and will be deducted from your EI. If you re qualify at a different job your pension may not be considered as income and may not be deducted. As per the service Canada website.
> 
> All I actually know for sure is that when I retired I was informed by EI that my pension was more then I would receive from them thus having a net value of 0, although I could apply if I wanted to. After I had re qualified I was then able to collect EI during my annuitant break. And being an evil double dipper I did.  >
> 
> "Pension income resulting from any employment constitutes earnings for benefit purposes. These include:
> 
> Employer pension plans, including employment as a member of the Armed Forces or any police force. This also applies to pensions from employment in another country, whether or not the employment was insurable.
> The Canada Pension Plan
> The Quebec Pension Plan
> 
> Pensions income resulting indirectly from employment do not always constitute earnings. In the following cases, all or part of the pension is not considered to be earnings:
> 
> The pension of an individual who re qualifies for EI benefits after the date on which payment of the pension begins.
> Disability pensions from employment as well as disability pensions from the Canada Pension Plan or Quebec Pension Plan"



The way my father explained it to me is that it was not the pension that they considered (as stated, the pension is not considered income), but rather was his severance pay. They figured it out for him as, "you received XX amount of severance pay which equates into XX weeks of income. Come back on that XX week and apply for your EI." He did; they cut the cheques.


----------



## Pusser

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> The way my father explained it to me is that it was not the pension that they considered (as stated, the pension is not considered income), but rather was his severance pay. They figured it out for him as, "you received XX amount of severance pay which equates into XX weeks of income. Come back on that XX week and apply for your EI." He did; they cut the cheques.



From the Service Canada website:

Pension income resulting from any employment constitutes earnings  for benefit purposes. These include:

•Employer pension plans, including employment as a member of the Armed Forces  or any police force. 

This seems to clearly state that our CFSA benefits do indeed count as income for the purposes of an EI claim.  Perhaps the rules have changed since your father retired.  I would argue that for the most part, anyone retiring at the end of a CF career should not be counting on receiving anything from EI.  If you really want to collect EI, get another job and then lose that one.


----------



## armyvern

Pusser said:
			
		

> From the Service Canada website:
> 
> Pension income resulting from any employment constitutes earnings  for benefit purposes. These include:
> 
> •Employer pension plans, including employment as a member of the Armed Forces  or any police force.
> 
> This seems to clearly state that our CFSA benefits do indeed count as income for the purposes of an EI claim.  Perhaps the rules have changed since your father retired.  I would argue that for the most part, anyone retiring at the end of a CF career should not be counting on receiving anything from EI.  If you really want to collect EI, get another job and then lose that one.



Well, the rules have certainly changed since he collected it; apparently now you actually have to go to job interviews and look for work instead of sitting back and collecting until your time runs out ...

Don't know how they check up on that.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

They really don't,......but it's always been written that way. You always have been supposed to be actively seeking gainful employment.

Everyone's interpretation of "actively" varies of course.......


----------



## Teeps74

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> They really don't,......but it's always been written that way. You always have been supposed to be actively seeking gainful employment.
> 
> Everyone's interpretation of "actively" varies of course.......



I think it would be entertaining to go to job interviews, demanding (based on expereince) the job of the guy doing the interviews and likely at a significant pay raise... Be a really good way to pass the time, and who knows, maybe someone would actually hire you at close to the demands...


----------



## CountDC

:nod:


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Mid-May pay statement was in my Hotmail account this morning, and yup the retro pay from Apr '11 to Apr '12 is there.


----------



## PuckChaser

I should have made a bet with the chief clerk here, he thought there was no way any of the backpay would be ready in time.


----------



## opcougar

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Mid-May pay statement was in my Hotmail account this morning, and yup the retro pay from Apr '11 to Apr '12 is there.



How much are we talking here extra after tax?


----------



## dapaterson

opcougar said:
			
		

> How much are we talking here extra after tax?



Rough estimate: look at your usual semi-monthly net pay after taxes, pension etc, and take a quarter of that.  (Note: this rough estimate applies only to full-time pers; class A reserves are a whole other kettle of fish).


Logic behind the math: your semi-monthly pay is just over 4% of your annual pay.  The increase was 1.75% of pay, but taxes etc will be withheld.  So, 1/4 of 4% = 1%, or about what will be left after taxes etc are deducted.

Your experience may vary.


----------



## aesop081

opcougar said:
			
		

> How much are we talking here extra after tax?



Was just about $850 extra for me between the pay itself and AIRCRA.


----------



## meni0n

Do the new pay rates come into effect next month?


----------



## aesop081

meni0n said:
			
		

> Do the new pay rates come into effect next month?



The new pay rates came into effect April 1st 2012. You will receive that backpay at the end of this month.


----------



## dapaterson

Actually, the first set of new pay rates came into effect 01 April 2011.  That's the retro on the mid-May pay.

On the end-May pay will be the retro from 01 April 2012.


----------



## meni0n

Ok I think I got what's happening, backpay for this year will be in at the end of the May and I will see the new pay rate on my pay next month..


----------



## aesop081

meni0n said:
			
		

> I'm still getting paid under the old pay rates, at Cpl 4 I got 4816 but it's supposed to be 4888...



Which is why you will be backpaid at the end-month pay. The old rates still show up on your statement but the latest rates are effective.


----------



## CountDC

just checked and mine is an extra $653.   No allowances in there but  the PMQ rental increase is  :crybaby:


----------



## CountDC

stupid stupid stupid.

Made the mistake of looking back at the old reserve pay rates.  I started at $13.75 half day/$30.50 full day.  Now it is $42.85 half day/$85.70 full day.  Res pay was approx 70% of reg (little leeway depending on rank) and now 85% and a half day is paid as a half.  Anyone else feeling old?  

2 half days then was $3 less than a full day which was more than some made on the outside per hour.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I started out at $11/22 for half and full days.  IMP's were in tins...


----------



## justmyalias

dapaterson said:
			
		

> ... Breaks in service can have damaging effects on individuals in some circumstances.


How "damaging"?

Significant?  or minor?


----------



## dapaterson

justmyalias said:
			
		

> How "damaging"?
> 
> Significant?  or minor?



Have you previously received severance pay or RFRG?  How long is your current period of service?  Did you release, or transfer to the Supp Res then re-enter?  Eligibility is from your most recent date of enrolment - so if you released after 6 years, then came back a year later, those six prior years would not be counted.  If you had gone Supp Res in this example, those six years would count.


----------



## bick

DAPaterson,

You mean that Inactive Sup Res time qualifies for the Severence buyout?

Thanks.


----------



## fraserdw

Yeah, I thought it was only the Ready Supp Res time that qualified.


----------



## dapaterson

There is only one Sipp Res - it was restructured about a decade ago.

Full-time service while on the Supp Res counts towards severance.  Just parked on the list time does not.

However:  If you were in the Reg F, transferred to the Supp Res, then rejoined the Reg F, your first period in the Reg F will count towards Severance; if you released, it will not.

So, compare Bloggins and Jones:  Both enrolled 01 March 2000.  On 29 Feb 2008 Bloggins transferred to the Supp Res and Jones released.  With less than 10 years in, neither received severance pay.  Both re-entered the Reg F on 01 Mar 2009, a year later.  Bloggins transferred from the Supp Res, Jones re-enrolled.

Now, with the new Severance rules, Bloggins will get: 12 years enrolled - 1 year Supp Res = 11 years of benefit, or 77 days of pay.  Jones, on the other hand, enrolled most recently in 2009, so he gets 3 years of benefit, or 21 days.

That's what I meant by Supp Time - it provides continuity between periods of Reg F and P Res service.


----------



## AliG

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is only one Sipp Res - it was restructured about a decade ago.
> 
> Full-time service while on the Supp Res counts towards severance.  Just parked on the list time does not.
> 
> However:  If you were in the Reg F, transferred to the Supp Res, then rejoined the Reg F, your first period in the Reg F will count towards Severance; if you released, it will not.
> 
> So, compare Bloggins and Jones:  Both enrolled 01 March 2000.  On 29 Feb 2008 Bloggins transferred to the Supp Res and Jones released.  With less than 10 years in, neither received severance pay.  Both re-entered the Reg F on 01 Mar 2009, a year later.  Bloggins transferred from the Supp Res, Jones re-enrolled.
> 
> Now, with the new Severance rules, Bloggins will get: 12 years enrolled - 1 year Supp Res = 11 years of benefit, or 77 days of pay.  Jones, on the other hand, enrolled most recently in 2009, so he gets 3 years of benefit, or 21 days.
> 
> That's what I meant by Supp Time - it provides continuity between periods of Reg F and P Res service.



This is also true for pensionable service. I did a 22 years stint before leaving initially in 02; and transferred to the supp at that time. I transferred back in Pres in 2006, reg in 2008 and now looking at leaving later on. On the paper received from the pension folks, they calculated 31 Years pensionable (with the 4 years in Sup) and 27 in paid service. This makes me index-able at 55.


----------



## fraserdw

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is only one Sipp Res - it was restructured about a decade ago.
> 
> Full-time service while on the Supp Res counts towards severance.  Just parked on the list time does not.
> 
> However:  If you were in the Reg F, transferred to the Supp Res, then rejoined the Reg F, your first period in the Reg F will count towards Severance; if you released, it will not.
> 
> So, compare Bloggins and Jones:  Both enrolled 01 March 2000.  On 29 Feb 2008 Bloggins transferred to the Supp Res and Jones released.  With less than 10 years in, neither received severance pay.  Both re-entered the Reg F on 01 Mar 2009, a year later.  Bloggins transferred from the Supp Res, Jones re-enrolled.
> 
> Now, with the new Severance rules, Bloggins will get: 12 years enrolled - 1 year Supp Res = 11 years of benefit, or 77 days of pay.  Jones, on the other hand, enrolled most recently in 2009, so he gets 3 years of benefit, or 21 days.
> 
> That's what I meant by Supp Time - it provides continuity between periods of Reg F and P Res service.



Roger that, I transferred to Ready Supp in 89 and gave back from the Supp in 95 when I lost interest in completing my PhD, so the 9 years of Reg F (1980 to 1989) is added in!  Thus 1980 to 2013 = 33 years - 6 Supp Years  = 27 years of benefit.


----------



## CountDC

going to be some very happy people and some not so happy people out of this one too.

Ex Reserve with over 10 years reserve time, did a CT to Regs and didn't apply for your RFRG - you are not going to get this instead for those years.  You will be given the chance to apply for your RFRG when they send your package.  It will be paid under the rules and your  pay rate that were in place at the time you CT.  If you do not apply for the RFRG then you will get nothing for that period.   

Ex Reserve with under 10 years reserve time and did a CT - be happy.  You are now going to get paid for those years under this program as you did not qualify for RFRG.

The guy that did 10 years will get 10 X reserve weekly rate of pay at time of CT / 2 (under 20 was 1/2 for RFRG)

The guy that did 9 years will get 9 x weekly rate of pay at time of release

Nice thing is where the RFRG was based on full years this is based on a two decimal percentile. Means the 7 months I didn't get RFRG for I will now get paid for (.58 better than nothing).

Get this - a person only needs four days to qualify for a payment.  That puts him at .01.


----------



## Pusser

So what happens to those of us who jumped to the Dark Side back in the days when we were released from the Reserve and then immediately enrolled in the Regular Force (i.e. we didn't transfer per se).  I've claimed and paid for the pensionable service, but will it bump up my severance pay?


----------



## dapaterson

Pusser said:
			
		

> So what happens to those of us who jumped to the Dark Side back in the days when we were released from the Reserve and then immediately enrolled in the Regular Force (i.e. we didn't transfer per se).  I've claimed and paid for the pensionable service, but will it bump up my severance pay?



The CBI refers to "a member’s number of years of service after the member’s most recent date of enrolment".  Thus, by the books, that time would not count.

That said, a member might reasonably grieve that interpretation, as the service was essentially without interruption and was done due to administrative direction of the CF.  It's a question worth raising if the interpretation goes against you.


----------



## CountDC

from what we were told in the release training as long as there was no break in service you are good to go.  That break is a key point for some as even 1 day starts the clock again.


----------



## Pusser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The CBI refers to "a member’s number of years of service after the member’s most recent date of enrolment".  Thus, by the books, that time would not count.
> 
> That said, a member might reasonably grieve that interpretation, as the service was essentially without interruption and was done due to administrative direction of the CF.  It's a question worth raising if the interpretation goes against you.



I read it that way too.  According to my MPRR, my most recent date of enrolement is clearly the day I signed on to the Regular Force.  However, back in the dark ages, there were no "Component Transfers" (at least not like they do them today) and so anyone changing components was released from the Reserve and then immediately enrolled in the Regular Force.  I remember the conversation well as this also effectively denied me any vested rights to pay as a Reserve LS becoming a Regular Force Officer Cadet on ROTP pay (which was considerably lower).  Seeing as how we no longer do it this way, I would think I would have a pretty argument to say that I have no broken service as the switch was back to back (literally, I was a Reservist until 2400 and began in the Regular Force at 0000).  I will certainly be pressing the point.


----------



## CountDC

The way they are doing it is your most recent date of enrolment goes all the way back as long as there was no break.  If you did the same as me and went directly from reserves to regular with no break in between then your date of enrolment is the reserve one.

Some people either through their own action or the units were released from the reserves a few days prior to the date they became regular or vice versa and do not get to count that earlier time as the break exists.

Basic - it must be continuous service and a period with sup res counts in there but you do not get any money for it unless you did some full time during your sup res period.


----------



## AliG

CountDC said:
			
		

> The way they are doing it is your most recent date of enrolment goes all the way back as long as there was no break.  If you did the same as me and went directly from reserves to regular with no break in between then your date of enrolment is the reserve one.



I was told at the release section here that for CFIRP purposes any class A service breaks the time line. For example, if you have reg then a class A period with intermittent class B and C (deployments) and transferred back to reg then your most recent date of enrolment would be the day you last started reg force whether there was a break in service or not if your last day in the res was A class.  All the previous res (A/B/C and reg) time is not counted. In other words, don't count on that reserve time for the 10 years service requirement for the retirement move. Moving the dwelling related expenses to custom is a way to pay lip service to the CFAO last move entitlement.

Knowing that, I would never have moved on my last posting and used IR for the duration instead.


----------



## Stoker

Guys we've being told that for the RFRG its being based on what rate of pay you we're receiving on April 1st for example if you were receiving Class C then it will be calculated on Class C rate.  Anyone hear anything similar?


----------



## AliG

From the release interview last week; unless the rules change again the gratuity is based on the rate of pay you have *at release*. It's just the length of time in the calculation no longer increase as of 1 Apr.


----------



## dapaterson

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Guys we've being told that for the RFRG its being based on what rate of pay you we're receiving on April 1st for example if you were receiving Class C then it will be calculated on Class C rate.  Anyone hear anything similar?



According to the CBI, if you were on class C on 29 Feb 2012 and elect for payment in lieu you will be paid out at the class C rate of pay in effect on 01 March 2012. - CBI 204.40(6).


----------



## Stoker

dapaterson said:
			
		

> According to the CBI, if you were on class C on 29 Feb 2012 and elect for payment in lieu you will be paid out at the class C rate of pay in effect on 01 March 2012. - CBI 204.40(6).



Good to know, I was lucky enough to be on a 10 day Class C tasking at the time.


----------



## CountDC

AIG - moves is a whole other matter and no your class a time would not factor in.

Chief - note that the rate is dependant on you electing PIL.  If you wait until you release then it will be based on the rate of pay at that time.

Some will really have to look carefully at what they may gain by waiting versus taking the PIL as there are a lot of factors - pay increase, promotion, ipc are some.  I am still flipping a coin myself.


----------



## Harris

I've searched here and online and still am not clear as to what this statement actually means from the DGCB page: "If a CF member has unused RRSP room, they can request for a reduction of Income Tax at source. Please consult the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) for further details."  Does this mean I can have the PIL go direct to my RRSP (I have the room) and not have to pay taxes on it?  If that is not that case what does this statement mean?


----------



## Occam

Harris said:
			
		

> I've searched here and online and still am not clear as to what this statement actually means from the DGCB page: "If a CF member has unused RRSP room, they can request for a reduction of Income Tax at source. Please consult the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) for further details."  Does this mean I can have the PIL go direct to my RRSP (I have the room) and no have to pay taxes on it?  If that is not that case what does this statement mean?



Yes, you have it right. (With the caveat that I'm not a financial planner, nor a CRA agent...though I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night).

For complete peace of mind, why not give the SISIP financial planners a call, while you still have time to elect what you're going to do with the money?


----------



## Harris

Thanks.  I will call them.


----------



## captloadie

I was at my bank the other day signing some mortgage papers when I overheard a conversation in the hallway. One of the financial planners was telling a customer that they would be silly not to cash out the severance now as "A dollar today is always worth more than a dollar tomorrow". Although true, without considering things like promotion, pay increase etc. not the best of advice. However, the customer also had a the same problem many others have written here. The lack of understanding that no matter what amount is cashed out and not put it into an RRSP is taxed at source. They also didn't understand that it doesn't mean a bigger tax return at the end of the year. 

I think that they need to be doing coast to coast briefings with mandatory attendance so members understand what their true choices are. The briefings should include a financial planner, and a member from CRA as well. But, I won't be surprised if there is nothing more than a website with some FAQ's and scenarios, and a powerpoint with no speaking notes or explanations.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Was just on a SCAM seminar last week.  The topic was covered and explained in detail.  They also explained that if you cash out, the rate is based on your pay as of 29 Feb 2012.  It is also anticipated it will take months to process (payouts) as well as they have a small cell of 12 folks working on it and they're expecting a flood.


----------



## NavyShooter

I'm planning to cash out my severance.  

I do not plan to roll it into my RRSP's.  I intend to pay down my mortgage.

That, alas, means that I'm going to take a big hit on the amount coming out due to taxation.

I'll be due about 19.5 weeks of severance pay.  

My monthly salary at the time of cashout calculation is $6,127.  

Multiply by 12 months gives $73,524.00

Divide by 52 weeks gives me $1,413.92

Multiply by 19.5 weeks will give me a severance payout of about $27,571.5

On which I expect to be taxed at approximately 40% resulting in a payout of about $16,542.90... ish.

And I can pay down a maximum of $15,000 per year on my mortgage, and I owe just around $35,000 right now on it.  By the time the severance payout comes around, I'll be down to about $28,000 remaining on my mortgage...and tossing $15,000 on that will bring me down to less than 12 months worth of payments.  Which is a good thing.  So, basically, 12 months after I get my severance payout, I will be mortgage free.

At which point, I'll be able to calve off some of my income to put towards other investments (and of course, the obligatory house repairs which will no doubt crop up.)

Is that the BEST thing I can do with the money?  I don't know.  It's what I plan to do.  I echo the suggestion that there should be briefings and financial advisors making the rounds as people try to figure out what to do with this money.  That said, my mind is made up, and I know what I'm going to do.

YMMV, but I don't like owing the bank, and I will be very pleased the day I make my last mortgage payment.

NS


----------



## jollyjacktar

I forgot to mention that for this instance they also are going to take into account partial years as well in the calculation.  eg.  I joined on 12 Jan 89, so I'll have 23 years, 48 days which comes to 23.13 weeks of severance.

They stressed again and again, talk to a SISIP financial planner to get your best bang for your buck at whatever you want to accomplish with this payment.


----------



## Occam

NavyShooter, if I may say so, I think you might want to talk to a SISIP financial planner before committing to that course of action.

Since you're at the dying days of your mortgage, most of your payments are going towards principal and very little towards interest.  Add to that the fact that mortgage money is the cheapest money you can get.

I think throwing away $11,000 to the taxman in order to save yourself very little in mortgage interest is not very wise.  If you have the RRSP room, and you invested the $27.5K in moderate risk investment vehicles, I'd bet that you'd be way further ahead when all is said and done.

I could be wrong, but I don't think so in this case.  Why aren't people rushing to get professional financial advice on this?


----------



## Wookilar

I did as Occam suggests and took this to SISIP.

We are in a similar situation, this could make a huge dent on my mortgage, but given the current interest rates (and near to mid-future rates), I can stand to make a lot more investment wise.

Instead of sticking it into an RRSP and letting it sit there for the next 15 years +, one of the things to consider is start drawing $5k or so a year, right away.

Yes, you will not "make" as much. However, you save the hit on income tax when you roll into and RRSP and you will take very little hit on an additional $5k income next year and can then use that for whatever the heck you want, including your mortgage.

It's not so much about maximizing your return, but minimizing the tax hit.

Talk to SISIP, they're free, and in my experience at least, pretty darn good at what they do.

Wook


----------



## rnkelly

Excuse my ignorance but if you elect to defer your severance to you're retirement does the severance get calculated on your salary at that time or would it be your salary just before 1 Mar 2012?  Does it get indexed?


----------



## dapaterson

rnkelly said:
			
		

> Excuse my ignorance but if you elect to defer your severance to you're retirement does the severance get calculated on your salary at that time or would it be your salary just before 1 Mar 2012?  Does it get indexed?



Per CBI 204.40(8 ), if you elect to take severance on your retirement it will be ccalculated using your rate of pay on your last day before your release.


EDIT: Because (8 ) needs to be typed instead of (8)


----------



## Occam

rnkelly said:
			
		

> Excuse my ignorance but if you elect to defer your severance to you're retirement does the severance get calculated on your salary at that time or would it be your salary just before 1 Mar 2012?  Does it get indexed?



From http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/pi-as-eng.asp



> Q9.   What rate of pay will be used to determine the severance benefit upon release?
> 
> A9.   Should a CF member elect to receive a severance benefit upon release, then the monthly rate of pay and pay increment for the member’s substantive rank in effect on the date of release or transfer, from the Regular Force or Primary Reserve Force, will be used to calculate the final severance benefit.



Indexing doesn't apply to severance at all - indexing applies to your CFSA pension.

edit:  DAP beat me to it, but there is lots of other good information at that link so I'll post it anyways.


----------



## CountDC

Reading back a few posts and Wooks post made me think (just a little bit) and well it is Friday afternoon so I am a bit lazy.

Is it possible for me to roll this into a spousal RSP and then for her to draw the $5k starting right away?  She would take a lot less of a hit on the taxes than I would as she doesn't currently work and doesn't plan to in the near future.


----------



## dapaterson

CountDC said:
			
		

> Reading back a few posts and Wooks post made me think (just a little bit) and well it is Friday afternoon so I am a bit lazy.
> 
> Is it possible for me to roll this into a spousal RSP and then for her to draw the $5k starting right away?  She would take a lot less of a hit on the taxes than I would as she doesn't currently work and doesn't plan to in the near future.



Short answer:  No.

Long answer:  You can roll it into a spousal RRSP.  However, if she withdraws it too soon (I believe the cut-off is three years, but I'm not sure) it's seen as a tax dodge, and it will be taxed in your hands, not hers.

Check the CRA website for rules on withdrawing funds from spousal RRSPs, or consult your financial advisor.

EDIT:  See http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/rrsp-reer/wthdrwls/spsl-eng.html for a start


That said:  If she has other RRSP amounts, she could withdraw those instead and get the same effect.


----------



## CountDC

dapaterson said:
			
		

> it's seen as a tax dodge, and it will be taxed in your hands, not hers.



Damn - my uncle must have tipped them off to me.  He was one of those mean collectors at CRA   ;D


----------



## Stoker

So we were briefed today that the "severance" or "RFRG" buyout will be considered salary and taxed accordingly. We do not have the option to roll it over to a RRSP to avoid the taxman. We apparently have the option request to split some of the income to another year in order to not be dinged so much on taxes. Anyone hear anything similar.


----------



## turretmonster

Do Reg F pers get to roll it into a RRSP or do they get dinged with the additional income tax as well?
TM


----------



## Stoker

turretmonster said:
			
		

> Do Reg F pers get to roll it into a RRSP or do they get dinged with the additional income tax as well?
> TM



As far as I know its both reg and reserve. Its from what I can tell that its not really a severance anymore but a buyout, and thus considered income.


----------



## dapaterson

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> So we were briefed today that the "severance" or "RFRG" buyout will be considered salary and taxed accordingly. We do not have the option to roll it over to a RRSP to avoid the taxman. We apparently have the option request to split some of the income to another year in order to not be dinged so much on taxes. Anyone hear anything similar.



If cashed out it is not a retiring allowance so iyou can't toll it over almost automatically.  However, if you have unused contribution room I believe you can do a limited roll over.  More to follow in a few days, once I'm at my desk and can do some research.


----------



## turretmonster

Nice.... Luckily I can contribute an amount equal to my "buyout" into my RRSP, negate the additional income tax, and plunk the additional income into my RRSPs the year after. Suck factor 10 as I had deliberately left room in my RRSP for this severance package. 
Plse let us know Mr Patterson


----------



## Stoker

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If cashed out it is not a retiring allowance so iyou can't toll it over almost automatically.  However, if you have unused contribution room I believe you can do a limited roll over.  More to follow in a few days, once I'm at my desk and can do some research.



Thank, I did call CRA yesterday and talked to the RRSP people and they told me it could be done. I brought it up the chain but we were told that's not so at all and that is being briefed to the chief clerks in the area. I was hoping to move it into a RRSP and roll it over to my buyback as i'm sure many people want to do. Whatever you can find out would be appreciated.


----------



## turretmonster

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/pi-as-eng.asp

Q11. Will the payment in lieu be taxable?

A11. The payment in lieu of a severance benefit is considered employment income. As such, the one time payment will be subject to Income Tax and will be reported as income on the T4 (Relevé 1 in Quebec). 

If a CF member has unused RRSP room, they can request for a reduction of Income Tax at source. Please consult the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) for further details; residents of Quebec should consult Revenu Quebec (MRQ).


I know there must be a form to fill out for this reduction of Income tax at the source somewhere along with limits allowed to be dropped into a RRSP.   

TM


----------



## Pusser

turretmonster said:
			
		

> http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/pi-as-eng.asp
> 
> Q11. Will the payment in lieu be taxable?
> 
> A11. The payment in lieu of a severance benefit is considered employment income. As such, the one time payment will be subject to Income Tax and will be reported as income on the T4 (Relevé 1 in Quebec).
> 
> If a CF member has unused RRSP room, they can request for a reduction of Income Tax at source. Please consult the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) for further details; residents of Quebec should consult Revenu Quebec (MRQ).
> 
> 
> I know there must be a form to fill out for this reduction of Income tax at the source somewhere along with limits allowed to be dropped into a RRSP.
> 
> TM



The limit of what you're allowed to put into an RRSP will be your unused RRSP contribution room - as noted on your 2011 income tax statement (and everyone before that).


----------



## dapaterson

Thanks, Turret Monster, for saving me the time to find that FAQ.

The actual CRA paperwork to complete?  I'll do some hunting next week...


----------



## Occam

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The actual CRA paperwork to complete?  I'll do some hunting next week...



TD2?  That's what I used to roll my severance into RRSPs when I pulled the pin last Sept...


----------



## dapaterson

Occam said:
			
		

> TD2?  That's what I used to roll my severance into RRSPs when I pulled the pin last Sept...



Sounds right.

One thing to remember:  with close to 100k people possibly cashing out in a small window it will mean the process will be delayed - even if they bring in extra staff to review applications, it will still be many, many months between sending in an election and getting the cash in hand.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Sounds right.
> 
> One thing to remember:  with close to 100k people possibly cashing out in a small window it will mean the process will be delayed - even if they bring in extra staff to review applications, it will still be many, many months between sending in an election and getting the cash in hand.



Sounds like the P.Res pension......

 ;D


----------



## bridges

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Sounds like the P.Res pension......
> 
> ;D



Seriously.  My "immediate" annuity took 2.5 years to appear.  Grateful to have it, though, and I felt bad for the staff working on all those files.  

In that regard - if I understand this CFG & discussion thread correctly, there's no application of this change to mbrs who released outright prior to 1 Mar 12, correct?


----------



## stretch

bridges said:
			
		

> Seriously.  My "immediate" annuity took 2.5 years to appear.  Grateful to have it, though, and I felt bad for the staff working on all those files.
> 
> In that regard - if I understand this CFG & discussion thread correctly, there's no application of this change to mbrs who released outright prior to 1 Mar 12, correct?



2.5 years!?   well that answers the question I came here to ask ha ha

I'll just forget it ever happened and then maybe ill get a surprise come Christmas one year.


----------



## dapaterson

According to the CF Ombudsman's last annual report, as of 29 Feb there were 1321 completed Res pension election files, and the backlog might not be cleared until December 2017.


----------



## navymich

Just received my Severance pay estimate package in the mail today.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I got mine also. It shows an estimate of years but no dollar figure.

How do we arrive at that $ figure?:dunno:

Is it the same as the previous RFRG, one week for every year served at retirement rank, or what?


----------



## fraserdw

Right, for PRes, Current Daily Rate x 7 x # of years, Reg F Monthly Rate/4 x # of years.  That's rough but close enough!

Wow, if I RRSP this I will get 20K back at income tax time!


----------



## McG

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Good question.  The new CBI 240.40 has yet to be posted; hopefully it will clarify that point.  One possible hiccup in your otherwise cunning plan may be the CF's (mis)management of Component Transfers - did you transfer directly from the Reserve Force into the Regular Force, or did you release and then re-enrol?  Breaks in service can have damaging effects on individuals in some circumstances.


Where the CF admin system records effective day of component transfers as "date of enrolment", what documentation might individuals be required to provide in order to demonstrate that there was continuous service?


----------



## dapaterson

Copies of both Reg and Res MPRRs should do the trick (famous last words)


----------



## McG

… and if I have a guy who went Reg F to Supp Res to P Res and finally back to Reg F?


----------



## dapaterson

Give up hope.

Or take the statement he receives in the mail, compare it to prior service, and see what corrections are needed.


----------



## fraserdw

MCG said:
			
		

> … and if I have a guy who went Reg F to Supp Res to P Res and finally back to Reg F?



In my case I went from Reg to Ready Sup Res to PRes and I am credited with all my Reg and PRes time for Severence.  As long as you have unbroken service and Sup counts as unbroken, you get the whole thing.


----------



## old fart

Up to this point, eligible  "Retiring allowance (severance pay)" amounts could be transferred to an RRSP or RPP in excess to normal contribution limits IAW CRA rules....quick summary below:

http://docs.quicktaxweb.ca/ty11/english/text/en/common/cra_other/cra_t4040_chart_8.html

"A retiring allowance is an amount you receive on or after your retirement from an office or employment in recognition of long service. It can include payment for unused sick leave and amounts you receive for loss of office or employment, whether as a payment of damages or a payment under an order or judgment of a tribunal.

You can transfer only the eligible part of your retiring allowance to your own RPP or RRSP. The eligible part is $2,000 for each year or part-year of service before 1996 in which you were employed by the employer or a person related to that employer from whom you received the retiring allowance. You can also transfer an extra $1,500 for each year or part-year of service before 1989 in which you had earned no pension or DPSP benefit from employer contributions that were either vested in you at the time of payment or that were previously paid to you."

So with regard to our payments in lieu of CF severance pay, I wonder if these additional contributions will remain eligible; be they taken early or at the end of military service and then contributed by eligible pers to an RRSP in addition to normal contribution room. 

 This aspect has not been made clear in the recent Estimate/letter received.  Not very forthright IMHO.

At first glance it seems to me that the payment still meets the CRA rules below particularly if taken at the end of service:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/ncm-tx/rtrn/cmpltng/rprtng-ncm/lns101-170/130/rtrng-eng.html

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/rrsp-reer/trnsfrrng/lgbl-eng.html

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/rrsp-reer/trnsfrrng/rtrng-eng.html

I am endeavouring to claify this...any info by those in a position to offer comment appreciated.

Yours aye....


----------



## Occam

old fart said:
			
		

> So with regard to our payments in lieu of CF severance pay, I wonder if these additional contributions will remain eligible; be they taken early or at the end of military service and then contributed by eligible pers to an RRSP in addition to normal contribution room.
> 
> This aspect has not been made clear in the recent Estimate/letter received.  Not very forthright IMHO.
> 
> At first glance it seems to me that the payment still meets the CRA rules below particularly if taken at the end of service:
> 
> http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/ncm-tx/rtrn/cmpltng/rprtng-ncm/lns101-170/130/rtrng-eng.html
> 
> http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/rrsp-reer/trnsfrrng/lgbl-eng.html
> 
> http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/rrsp-reer/trnsfrrng/rtrng-eng.html
> 
> I am endeavouring to claify this...any info by those in a position to offer comment appreciated.
> 
> Yours aye....



I called CRA asking the very same question when the CANFORGEN came out on severance pay.  The answer I got from CRA was:  If you're not retiring, the pre-1996 amount (eligible amount) is not available to you.

As always, you should contact CRA and a tax planner for professional advice before taking an internet post at face value.


----------



## old fart

Occam said:
			
		

> I called CRA asking the very same question when the CANFORGEN came out on severance pay.  The answer I got from CRA was:  If you're not retiring, the pre-1996 amount (eligible amount) is not available to you.
> 
> As always, you should contact CRA and a tax planner for professional advice before taking an internet post at face value.



Occam, thanks for the reply...not had time to do that...but your comment is exactly as I expected the case to be.

For those with eligible contributions, this could make a huge difference and a potential significant loss for for someone who takes the cash incentive early....in my case the loss of taking the early payment would be thousands.....many other are in the same boat.

The accompanying letter like I said not forthright, or to be blunt disingenuous, as this aspect is not new. 

I agree with your closing comment.

Yours aye....


----------



## meni0n

Does anyone know if the severance payout is going to be taxed at source or you'll have to pay tax on it at the end of the year.


----------



## Occam

meni0n said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if the severance payout is going to be taxed at source or you'll have to pay tax on it at the end of the year.



Taxed at source, unless you apply for a reduction of tax at source if you're transferring it to unused RRSP headroom.  See http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/pi-as-eng.asp#Q34


----------



## old fart

Well there it is...even if taken at the end of service...the prior provision that used to apply to retirees no longer applies.....Bollox...

39. In accordance with CRA rules, members can only transfer the eligible part (i.e. $2,000 for each year or part-year of service before 1996 in which the member was employed by the employer from whom they received the retiring allowance and additional $1, 500 for each year or part of a year of service before 1989 in which no pension or DPSP benefit was earned from employer contributions that either vested in the member at the time of payment or were paid to the member) of their retiring allowance to their own RPP or RRSP. Does this rule apply to the payment in lieu (PiL) of the Canadian Forces Severance Pay (CFSP)?

No. This rule does not apply to the payment in lieu (PiL) of Canadian Forces Severance Pay (CFSP). Members can only transfer the eligible part of their retiring allowance to their own RPP or RRSP.

BOHICA...................


----------



## dapaterson

old fart said:
			
		

> Well there it is...even if taken at the end of service...the prior provision that used to apply to retirees no longer applies.....Bollox...
> 
> 39. In accordance with CRA rules, members can only transfer the eligible part (i.e. $2,000 for each year or part-year of service before 1996 in which the member was employed by the employer from whom they received the retiring allowance and additional $1, 500 for each year or part of a year of service before 1989 in which no pension or DPSP benefit was earned from employer contributions that either vested in the member at the time of payment or were paid to the member) of their retiring allowance to their own RPP or RRSP. Does this rule apply to the payment in lieu (PiL) of the Canadian Forces Severance Pay (CFSP)?
> 
> No. This rule does not apply to the payment in lieu (PiL) of Canadian Forces Severance Pay (CFSP). Members can only transfer the eligible part of their retiring allowance to their own RPP or RRSP.
> 
> BOHICA...................



Revenue Canada rules - the CF has no control over it.

However, I suspect that if you wait until you release to take the severance pay, it is considered as a retiring allowance and thus those rules apply.


----------



## old fart

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Revenue Canada rules - the CF has no control over it.
> 
> However, I suspect that if you wait until you release to take the severance pay, it is considered as a retiring allowance and thus those rules apply.



That's the point, even if you wait till the end....as written....it's still a "payment in lieu (PiL) of Canadian Forces Severance Pay (CFSP)" .....although if taken at the end of a long service career it remains as it has always been - a retiring allowance / severance pay.....I hope that remains the case.

Some clear direction from the bean counters (CF types) and reflected on the letter with regard to the rules applicable when the payment is taken at the end of service would have been useful.  This aspect should be spelled out...a good question at the very least for the CF SCAN seminar delivery crew....

Anyway, I would like to suspect you are right.  That was my initial belief...until I read and re-read the answer to Q39.....now I am not so sure.

When I have the time, I will endeavour to follow up one way or another.........

Yours aye....


----------



## dapaterson

According to DGCB:



> 2.7 Tax Implications
> 
> A severance benefit that is paid upon release from the CF is considered a retiring allowance under the Income Tax Act. As such, the income tax rules for retiring allowances apply when a severance benefit is paid to the member upon release or transfer from the Reg F or the PRes.*
> 
> *The determination of income tax rests with the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) and/or Ministère du Revenu du Quebec (MRQ) and members should contact CRA or MRQ directly to obtain the best possible advice on tax matters. Refer to sections 3.16 and 3.17 for CRA and MRQ contact information.



See: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/cfsprlad-idfccr-eng.asp

Thus, it can't be rolled over if you tale the PiL; if you wait for release and take it as a retiring allowance it can be rolled over (subject to CRA and MRQ rules).


----------



## old fart

dapaterson said:
			
		

> According to DGCB:
> 
> See: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/cfsprlad-idfccr-eng.asp
> 
> Thus, it can't be rolled over if you tale the PiL; if you wait for release and take it as a retiring allowance it can be rolled over (subject to CRA and MRQ rules).



Thanks for the link.....things are looking up..... again....that was my belief....this has closed the loop.   Why this aspect could not have been covered on the letter remains beyond me.


----------



## bick

Got mine too.

Take your monthly rate of pay x 12.  Now divide by 52.  Take this number and x by your years of service.


----------



## old fart

Rhodesian said:
			
		

> Got mine too.
> 
> Take your monthly rate of pay x 12.  Now divide by 52.  Take this number and x by your years of service.



Not quite but close enough....I received 560 bucks more using the actual formula:

"2.4 Calculation of CFSP.  The amount of CFSP is calculated by the formula:

(MP* ÷ 30) x 7 x Y
where "Y" is the lesser of:
the number of years of eligible services; and
the difference of (30 - YPB**)
*MP is the monthly rate of pay, on the day before the member ceases to serve in the Reg F or Pres, for the member’s substantive rank, pay increment, and occupation or trade group.

** YPB means years in respect of which any severance benefits were paid or granted to a member under QR&O 16.19, Rehabilitation Leave; QR&O 204.40, Severance Pay; QR&O 204.54, Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity (RFRG); QR&O 204, Financial Benefits and Pay of Military Judges; CBI 204.40, Severance Pay; CBI 204.54 – Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity (RFRG); and CBI 204.40 – Canadian Forces Severance Pay (CFSP)."

I played around with this...if I defer release to the 1 Jan of the next tax year...vice 31st Dec the year before for instance....I save an additional 2k (clear) based on NB rates.  A mute point...as I expect to retire at my combined UK/CAN 35 year point (UK pension paid back)...mid year....but still coming to terms with when to call it a day.

I will be happy, if get to protect the 2K per year to 1996.....20K.  Unfortunately, I don't have much normal RRSP pension room so a good chunk will still disappear in a puff of CRA smoke.


----------



## Pusser

My intent is to take part now (or whenever they get around to actually paying it out) and the rest at retirement.  The part I'm taking now will be enough to max out my RRSP (i.e. no immediate tax on this partial payment).  By the time I retire, the remainder should also be eligible for complete transfer into my RRSP as well (i.e. RRSP contribution room + $2000/yr prior to 1996 + $1500/yr prior to 1989 = enough room to shelter the remainder).  In short, my goal is to completely shelter the entire package.

Of course, the way things are going, there is a distinct possibility that my post-retirement income will be very close to my pre-retirement income, so the taxman is going to get it eventually, but what the hey....

The biggest challenge I see is to claim my Reserve service.  The package I received the other day gives the date I joined the Regular Force as my enrollment date.  Unfortunately, at that time, one did not actually "transfer" form Reserve to Regular. The policy was to release from the Reserve and then immediately enroll in the Regular Force.  So, I have no broken service (released effective one day and enrolled effective the next), but I still have some chains to rattle.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Make sure that you get good financial advice.  I'd be curious to know if taking "part now, part later", renders it a Payment in Lieu of Severance (in the eyes of CRA), making it ineligible for RRSP transfer.


----------



## Pusser

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Make sure that you get good financial advice.  I'd be curious to know if taking "part now, part later", renders it a Payment in Lieu of Severance (in the eyes of CRA), making it ineligible for RRSP transfer.



Everything I've read so far supports my plan.  As I see it, only the part I take now is considered PIL and the rest would be a true severance package and so would be considered "eligible."  Nevertheless, it doesn't really matter as my plan won't change.  I'm only taking enough now in order to take advantage of my current unused contribution room.  The rest will wait until I retire.  If I can't use the $2000/$1500 rollover options, I will just have to look at other strategies (i.e. contribution room built up between now and then, retiring early in the year, etc).


----------



## PuckChaser

Letter showed up today, and of course they "neglected" to calculate my reserve service. I have a feeling ORs are going to be handling this headache for a long time.


----------



## dapaterson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Letter showed up today, and of course they "neglected" to calculate my reserve service. I have a feeling ORs are going to be handling this headache for a long time.



It's been clear from day 1 that ORs will be engaged due to people having interestingly varied career paths in the CF.

Remember, though, if you received RFRG on your transfer to the Reg F, that period of service will not be counted towards CFSP.



The full admin guide is online.  DWAN link: http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dpsp/pdf/english/cfsprld_e.pdf


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Remember, though, if you received RFRG on your transfer to the Reg F, that period of service will not be counted towards CFSP.



What is RFRG?


----------



## mariomike

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> What is RFRG?



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/16008.0


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Appreciated.


----------



## buzgo

I just received my letter today. Interestingly someone at DGCB seems to think I am a MCpl, which I haven't been for at least 6 years now. Anyone else have any 'biggish' problems?

Off to the OR I guess.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I have a similar problem maybe.  What exactly does "substantive rank" mean.  I have been a MCpl A/L since Jan 2011.  I am presently listed as Cpl but since I don't know what substantive means in this case I am not sure if they got it right or not.

Also seems they haven't taken into account my Res time.


----------



## mariomike

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> What exactly does "substantive rank" mean.



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/50104.0


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Appreciated.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Has there been an estimated time frame on payout for those that choose to have the money now?


----------



## Occam

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> Has there been an estimated time frame on payout for those that choose to have the money now?



http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/pi-as-eng.asp

Everything is right there...Question 13 onwards.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

CountDC said:
			
		

> from what we were told in the release training as long as there was no break in service you are good to go.  That break is a key point for some as even 1 day starts the clock again.



Would this include 1 day LWOP?  I went from PRes to Reg with out getting out as well but my date of enrolment is listed as when I went Reg.


(Currently on PATA and not close to UOR)


----------



## dapaterson

If you were A/MCpl on 01 March, you would be paid out as a Cpl, as Cpl is your substantive rank.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Thank you dapa's, any insight on my last post?


----------



## Res Release Clerk

People at our HQ who has simple, non stop reserve svc with an enrolment date and no release date yet have data that is correct on the DCBA estimate, including rank.

EVERYONE who did both reserve and reg force all have errors in their estimate. One MWO was listed as Mcpl and noboby had their reserve svc taken into account (including cases where the people had under 10 years of reserve before transfering to Reg force, which means they wouldn't have received any RFRG upon releasing from the P res)

DCBA states that they got the information from RPSR, CCPS and Peoplesoft but that's simply impossible, at least for those who are having issues with the P res / Reg force svc.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

So, it says in Section B:

"Last date of accumulation of Eligible Service [note 5]"

Then Note 5: blah, blah, blah. on the last moment of 29 February 2012 in any other case.

I'm taking that to mean even if you stay in x more years, there is no more monies being added from 29 Feb 12 onward. What you have accumulated to 29 Feb 12 is all you're getting.

Is that right?


----------



## dapaterson

recceguy said:
			
		

> So, it says in Section B:
> 
> "Last date of accumulation of Eligible Service [note 5]"
> 
> Then Note 5: blah, blah, blah. on the last moment of 29 February 2012 in any other case.
> 
> I'm taking that to mean even if you stay in x more years, there is no more monies being added from 29 Feb 12 onward. What you have accumulated to 29 Feb 12 is all you're getting.
> 
> Is that right?



Mostly right.
The admin instruction has the following list of conditions where you would continue to accumulate to a maximum of 30 years:



> The accumulation of years of eligible service continues for a member who is released, in the Table to QR&O article 15.01, under Items:
> 
> 3(a) Medical grounds - being disabled and unfit to perform duties as a member of the Service.
> 
> 3(b) Medical grounds - being disabled and unfit to perform his duties in his present trade or employment, and not otherwise advantageously employable under existing service policy.
> 
> 5(b) Reduction in strength.
> 
> 5(c) Completed service for which required: where the member has not reached retirement age under QR&O Chapter 15 but has completed the period of obligatory service because of a change in classification or trade specifications or in the establishment requirements of the CF.
> 
> 5(d) Not advantageously employable.
> 
> 5(e) Irregular enrolment.
> 
> By reason of death (refer to QR&O article 15.01(2)).


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

That's how I see except that if you take it out now and your a Sgt that's how it's calculated vs. taking out later and your say a WO it will be calculated using that rank.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Mostly right.
> The admin instruction has the following list of conditions where you would continue to accumulate to a maximum of 30 years:



Cheers


----------



## wesleyd

How are people getting their payout statements? Through email/snail mail or cf mail.


----------



## dapaterson

Mail to the address they send your T4s.


----------



## jollyjacktar

wesleyd said:
			
		

> How are people getting their payout statements? Through email/snail mail or cf mail.



Don't worry.  I've not received mine yet either.  That's no big surprise, there's usually a substantial lag in full delivery of bad news by mail from the bean counter types at the puzzle palace.  It _will eventually_ get to both you and me and we'll both have plenty of time to  :stars: along with the rest of the crowd.


----------



## PuckChaser

FAQ on the website said you should have them by the 17th of September. If not, go to your OR. Those of us that got them early are lucky, unless its wrong...


----------



## DAA

Folks, let's take this into perspective as it is something new that came down the pipe.  What you received in the mail, is ONLY an "Estimate"!!!  From what I have seen at work in the past few days, this leads me to believe it may or may not have been generated based on your current circumstances (ie; currently serving in the Reg F or Res F).  Hence, if you are a component transfer (CT) in any direction, your prior service may not have been included in the calculation.  If you look at the letter, it tells you what you need to provide with respect to other types of service, if you feel the numbers are wrong.  Sooooo......if you think the "estimate" is wrong, NOW (and don't wait until next year for Christ sake and then bitch about it when you get shafted)  is the time to start trying to acquire the documentation (indicated in the letter) necessary to prove previous qualifying service.  I am not sure if they will "accept" MPRR's as a form of proof, so you BEST be prepared.

The CANFORGEN (s) that came out on this, indicated that a "team" would be stood up just to deal with this and that an email address would be provided at a later date.  This has yet to happen but will, very shortly occur (you can't rob peter to pay Paul when it comes to personnel resources).  These people need to be trained first before they can help us!  Once that is done, DMCA will train Admin staff at all locations to provide on-site assistance.  Until this happens, there is not much more that can be done and everything else is mere speculation.

What is happening now is the administration of "Payment in Lieu" of Severance Pay.  Anyone remember "Cashout of Annual Leave"???  It is the exact same process!!!  You can take the cash now or you can take it later, the choice will be yours and the formula will be based on your pay at that time!!!  All you need to do is read CBI 204.40 and "read ALL of it" please.....  What you have before you now, is a ONE TIME offer.  After that, the issue of Severance Pay will NOT come up again until you actually retire/release/depart the CF.  Your accumulation of time credit towards Severance Pay ceased on 29 Feb 12, so the "X" factor won't change, but I think there may be "exceptional" circumstances (ie; medical, etc).

Be forewarned!!!  READ the letter and if you disagree with what the "estimate" is, now is the time to start lining up the ducks.......


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

With regards to providing proof that I was in the reserves, isn't something the Orderly room have access too?


----------



## George Wallace

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> With regards to providing proof that I was in the reserves, isn't something the Orderly room have access too?



It is all on your MPRR


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

says nothing of me being in the RHLI.


----------



## Zoomie

Slightly relieved to see that other PRes CTing RegF are not having their estimates accurately portrayed. 

I've already emailed my SOR to see what needs to be done.  Apparently Ottawa is hosting unit AdminO's in the next couple of weeks to provide a better backgrounder.


----------



## dapaterson

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Slightly relieved to see that other PRes CTing RegF are not having their estimates accurately portrayed.
> 
> I've already emailed my SOR to see what needs to be done.  Apparently Ottawa is hosting unit AdminO's in the next couple of weeks to provide a better backgrounder.



Meetings are 18-19 or 20-21 Sept; one day on changes to certain admin measures, and the second on severance pay.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

should we wait till after this brief then?


----------



## George Wallace

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> says nothing of me being in the RHLI.



Have RMS clerk call up ALL your MPPRs


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Will do


----------



## AmmoTech90

Talked to our CC today.  Clerks are getting trained (at least in NCR) on this starting on the 17th of Sept.  Until then all they can pretty much do is look at the FAQ and admin instruction, nod their heads and say, yup, makes sense, to what ever you are saying.  Once trained they can provide answers.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I think I'll wait till the clerks are briefed first then.


----------



## Ostrozac

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Have RMS clerk call up ALL your MPPRs



Interesting -- I didn't know that our old reserve service was electronically archived. My primary reserve service was more than 20 years ago, but I did transfer directly into the regular force, so my old Class A and B time should count for the purposes of this payout offer.


----------



## AmmoTech90

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Interesting -- I didn't know that our old reserve service was electronically archived. My primary reserve service was more than 20 years ago, but I did transfer directly into the regular force, so my old Class A and B time should count for the purposes of this payout offer.



I'm in the same situation.  The CC pointed out that while the admin order excluded service for which you recieved a gratutity or pension or such like, it did not include service for which you did not receive anything and therefore that question could not be answered.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Does anyone know if one day leave without pay constitutes a stoppage in service?


----------



## dapaterson

To be on leave, you must be a member (whether that leave is with or without pay).

I expect the day of LWOP won't count, but the remainder of your service on either side of that day will count.


(Note that MATA/PATA is LWOP as well, but is included in calculations)


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Thanks Dapa, the day in question is when I went from PRes to Reg.  My paperwork doesn't include my PRes time and I just wanted to make sure that the LWOP for that one day did not account for a stoppage in service.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> Thanks Dapa, the day in question is when I went from PRes to Reg.  My paperwork doesn't include my PRes time and I just wanted to make sure that the LWOP for that one day did not account for a stoppage in service.


You're not the only one.  Mines the reverse, they didn't include my RegF time.


----------



## CDN2525

So, what happens if you were in the PRes for 10+ years, CT'ed to the Regs, then came back to the reserves? Do both reserve service periods count provided you never took any gratuity and never got out? 

My problems extend a little further than the above issue. Here's a more detailed description of my circumstances:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/107351/post-1170306.html#msg1170306


----------



## AmmoTech90

CDN2525 said:
			
		

> So, what happens if you were in the PRes for 10+ years, CT'ed to the Regs, then came back to the reserves? Do both reserve service periods count provided you never took any gratuity and never got out?
> 
> My problems extend a little further than the above issue. Here's a more detailed description of my circumstances:
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/107351/post-1170306.html#msg1170306



The answer is in this thread if you read it:



> The CC pointed out that while the admin order excluded service for which you recieved a gratutity or pension or such like, it did not include service for which you did not receive anything and therefore that question could not be answered.





> Clerks are getting trained (at least in NCR) on this starting on the 17th of Sept.  Until then all they can pretty much do is look at the FAQ and admin instruction, nod their heads and say, yup, makes sense, to what ever you are saying.  Once trained they can provide answers.



If you read the admin instruction it is based on eligible service.  The CBI that the admin instruction falls under defines eligible service as:



> “eligible service” means a member’s number of years of service after the member’s* most recent date of enrolment* but does not include any years of:



Wait until the clerks are trained and know how the policy will be executed.


----------



## MeatheadMick

I'm in the same boat... Enrolled in 2005 and I put my CT in April 2009, which up to that point all my time was Class A and short-term B (for courses). I was granted 330 days towards my pension, however this obviously did not include the long term class B from May 2009 - Feb 2010. I accepted the offer anyway, with the intention of trying to get the rest of the my days granted. Now with the Severance package it just states from Feb 2010, which is my Reg Force roll-over minus the 330 granted.

Does anyone know how to get the additional time, (May '09 - Feb '10) granted? I've asked multiple OR's (PRETC, CFMPA as well as my Current Unit) and no one seems to know the definitive answer. The 'best guess' answer I've heard so far that a service review has to go through my CM and may not be granted as I accepted the initial offer. Does anyone know about the process on how I can go and attempt to get that extra year-ish granted? (Not necessarily towards the severance pay-out as I will wait until the clerks have been briefed, but at least for time served?)


----------



## DAA

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you were A/MCpl on 01 March, you would be paid out as a Cpl, as Cpl is your substantive rank.



Excellent post and glad you said it!!!  Given the circumstances that this will be a "one time" opportunity, how can you justify, penalizing someone who is currently holding an "Acting" rank as a result of CF requirements (ie; your CM not loading you on QL5/6, PLQ, ILQ, etc....).

For example, someone who has been a WO for 3 years and through "no fault" of their own, who has never been loaded on the ILQ.  That's a few dollars out of pocket, depending on the time in.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I've been on PATA leave with no chance to be course loaded.


----------



## aesop081

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> I've been on PATA leave with no chance to be course loaded.



Right now, it makes no difference. It is substantive rank on march 1st, period.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Oh I know, I'm not fighting it.


----------



## DAA

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Right now, it makes no difference. It is substantive rank on march 1st, period.



But don't you think it should???  Your post is correct that it makes no difference in the "here and now" but what about the impact it has on those where it is out of their control?


----------



## aesop081

DAA said:
			
		

> But don't you think it should???



What i think is neither here nor there.


----------



## DAA

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> What i think is neither here nor there.



You may want to reconsider your post!  Because, everything you post is considered to be "what you think" whether here nor there!!!  If that is the case, then your posts are of not much relevance....


----------



## PMedMoe

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Right now, it makes no difference. It is substantive rank on march 1st, period.



On March first of this year or next?  Either way, guess I won't put much effort into my ILP then.....   :


----------



## MeatheadMick

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> On March first of this year or next?  Either way, guess I won't put much effort into my ILP then.....   :



Last day that counts is Feb 28 2012.


----------



## PMedMoe

MPMick said:
			
		

> Last day that counts is Feb 28 2012.



Well that bites.....


----------



## aesop081

DAA said:
			
		

> You may want to reconsider your post!  Because, everything you post is considered to be "what you think" whether here nor there!!!



Whatever. I'm going back to my booze.


----------



## MeatheadMick

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Well that bites.....



Yup



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Whatever. I'm going back to my booze.



Not a bad idea


----------



## DAA

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Whatever. I'm going back to my booze.



Now that is relevance...   :goodpost:


----------



## Pusser

MPMick said:
			
		

> Last day that counts is Feb 28 2012.



That is the last day to accumulate entitlement to severance pay, but as far as I know, the pay rate used in the calculation will be that in effect on the day of release.  Now, I'm not sure what implication this has on PIL (i.e. whether it will include the 12/13 pay increase that is effective now).  However, if you don't take the PIL, the instructions have been clear that it will be your rate of pay at release, but based on the service completed prior to 28 Feb 12.


----------



## dapaterson

Last day that counts is 29 Feb 2012 (it was a leap year).

If you elect to take Payment in Lieu (that is, money now) it is paid out at your substantive rank on 01 March 2012, at the pay rate in force on 01 March 2012.  If you wait until release, you will be paid out at your substantive rank on release.

So, in one of the cases discussed here, if you were an A/MCpl on 01 March 2012, you'd get XX days at Cpl pay.  If you wait 12 years and take when you release as an MWO, you'd get the same XX days, but paid out at MWO pay.


----------



## BlueJingo

I just wonder if they are going to do two separate calculations for the CT people...

I.e. 5 yrs in PRes - At the Reserve Calculation
Date of Transfer
2 yrs in Reg F - At the Reg F Calculation 

and to boot if you were a lower rank at transfer does that lower the payment? (Pte at time of Transfer, Currently a MCpl?)

I'm not sure if i'm making any sense lol Does anybody understand what I just wrote lol


----------



## dapaterson

Jingo said:
			
		

> I just wonder if they are going to do two separate calculations for the CT people...
> 
> I.e. 5 yrs in PRes - At the Reserve Calculation
> Date of Transfer
> 2 yrs in Reg F - At the Reg F Calculation
> 
> and to boot if you were a lower rank at transfer does that lower the payment? (Pte at time of Transfer, Currently a MCpl?)
> 
> I'm not sure if i'm making any sense lol Does anybody understand what I just wrote lol



I understand the question.

ANd no, it will not be made like that.

The calculation is:  All eligible service for which you have not been previously paid, multiplied by the pay for your substantive rank on 01 March 2012 (if you take it now) or multiplied by the pay for your substantive rank on release, if you take it when you release.


----------



## brihard

Jingo said:
			
		

> I just wonder if they are going to do two separate calculations for the CT people...
> 
> I.e. 5 yrs in PRes - At the Reserve Calculation
> Date of Transfer
> 2 yrs in Reg F - At the Reg F Calculation
> 
> and to boot if you were a lower rank at transfer does that lower the payment? (Pte at time of Transfer, Currently a MCpl?)
> 
> I'm not sure if i'm making any sense lol Does anybody understand what I just wrote lol



No. Reserve service is calendar time, not time signed in / on a route letter. That is to say, the guy who works class B for two years has exactly the same calculated service as the guy who shows up twice a month for two years.


----------



## MeatheadMick

One of our clerks was under the impression that PRes time does not get paid out unless the member served 10+ years in the PRes... Is this just another nasty rumour or is there merit to this statement?

If that's not the case than my severance should be back dated to June 2005 (PRes) and not Feb 2010 (Reg).. if the rumour's true than I'm only getting 2 years of severance based on 7 years of service, (50% of Res time spent on Class B)...

Such is life I guess...


----------



## dapaterson

Brihard said:
			
		

> No. Reserve service is calendar time, not time signed in / on a route letter. That is to say, the guy who works class B for two years has exactly the same calculated service as the guy who shows up twice a month for two years.




...and all the Reserve units that are behind in their admin and still haven't released Bloggins from 2007, but never posted him as NES in the system, will suddenly discover that Bloggins is getting another 5 years of benefits...


----------



## dapaterson

MPMick said:
			
		

> One of our clerks was under the impression that PRes time does not get paid out unless the member served 10+ years in the PRes... Is this just another nasty rumour or is there merit to this statement?
> 
> If that's not the case than my severance should be back dated to June 2005 (PRes) and not Feb 2010 (Reg).. if the rumour's true than I'm only getting 2 years of severance based on 7 years of service, (50% of Res time spent on Class B)...
> 
> Such is life I guess...



Your clerk is wrong.  Full stop.  Your calculations should be based on 5 years of service.

I'd suggest your clerk read the CBI.


----------



## MeatheadMick

So when I go to make my decision on what I want to do with my severance package, My granted time should go back to my original enrolment date of June 2005, excellent.

What is the difference between the Res Pay Out and the Reg? I can't see getting 6 weeks of Reg Force Pay when 4 of those are based on Reserve Service.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Maybe we should all wait out with our questions until the clerks have there brief on this matter on or about the 17th of Sept.


----------



## PuckChaser

MPMick said:
			
		

> What is the difference between the Res Pay Out and the Reg? I can't see getting 6 weeks of Reg Force Pay when 4 of those are based on Reserve Service.



Don't turn this into a Big R and little r debate. The FAQ says its based on current substansive rank as of a certain date, be it 85% of Cpl 4 or 100% of Cpl 2 because Bloggins CT'd and saved the money the CF would have to train a guy off the street.


----------



## MeatheadMick

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Don't turn this into a Big R and little r debate. The FAQ says its based on current substansive rank as of a certain date, be it 85% of Cpl 4 or 100% of Cpl 2 because Bloggins CT'd and saved the money the CF would have to train a guy off the street.



Sorry, that wasn't my intention.


----------



## Ostrozac

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Last day that counts is 29 Feb 2012 (it was a leap year).
> 
> If you elect to take Payment in Lieu (that is, money now) it is paid out at your substantive rank on 01 March 2012, at the pay rate in force on 01 March 2012.  If you wait until release, you will be paid out at your substantive rank on release.
> 
> So, in one of the cases discussed here, if you were an A/MCpl on 01 March 2012, you'd get XX days at Cpl pay.  If you wait 12 years and take when you release as an MWO, you'd get the same XX days, but paid out at MWO pay.



How do you figure out the pay rate  at their substantive rank for someone acting/lacking in a higher rank? If someone is A/L Maj, he would get his normal day-to-day pay as a Maj Basic or a Maj 1 etc... But for these purposes is he paid out at the maximum rate for a Capt (Capt 10)? Or the last pay scale he reached as a Capt? Or are his Captain incentives "ghost-advanced", so even though he is being paid as an A/L Maj 2, he is also a substantive Capt 7, if he was promoted acting/lacking as a Capt 5?

Plus, doesn't a Master Corporal still hold the rank of Corporal? So which pay scale does an A/L MCpl get paid out on? You can't have a substantive rank of Master Corporal -- since it isn't a rank.

All this is making me want to wait to cash this out until my retirement. The more I read it, the less I understand.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Again wait for the clerks to have their briefs then they will know more and inturn we will know more too.


----------



## bridges

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Plus, doesn't a Master Corporal still hold the rank of Corporal? So which pay scale does an A/L MCpl get paid out on? You can't have a substantive rank of Master Corporal -- since it isn't a rank.



Yes, technically MCpl/MS is an appointment but for most practical purposes (including pay), it is _de facto_ equivalent to a substantive rank and is treated as such.


----------



## Char1991

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Plus, doesn't a Master Corporal still hold the rank of Corporal? So which pay scale does an A/L MCpl get paid out on? You can't have a substantive rank of Master Corporal -- since it isn't a rank.





			
				bridges said:
			
		

> Yes, technically MCpl/MS is an appointment but for most practical purposes (including pay), it is _de facto_ equivalent to a substantive rank and is treated as such.



Please refer to CBI 204.30(4) and Table to CBI 204.30.

_(Appointment of master corporal) A corporal who holds the appointment of master corporal shall be paid at the rate of pay established for a corporal, Pay Level 5B, in Table to this instruction at the same pay increment to which the member would otherwise have been entitled, as a corporal, had the member not been appointed master corporal._

CBI 204


----------



## bridges

Char1991 said:
			
		

> _(Appointment of master corporal) A corporal who holds the appointment of master corporal shall be paid at the rate of pay established for a corporal, Pay Level 5B, in Table to this instruction at the same pay increment to which the member would otherwise have been entitled, as a corporal, had the member not been appointed master corporal._
> 
> CBI 204



Exactly; thanks for the ref.  Cpl "5B" is otherwise known as MCpl.  In other words, someone holding the substantive appointment of MCpl ("Cpl 5B") is not going to suddenly be bumped down to "Cpl 5A" for the purposes of severance pay.


----------



## dapaterson

However, an A/MCpl would be paid out as a Cpl.

As for acting rank: If you are given acting rank and then revert to your substantive rank, time in acting rank counts towards IPCs in your substantive rank.  That said, I'm not certain about how that will be managed for people electing to cash out their payment in lieu of severance.


----------



## dapaterson

SISIP has information posted to their website on the Severance cashout:

Main Page:

https://public.cfpsa.com/en/AboutUs/SISIPFS/Pages/Canadian-Forces-Severance-Pay-(CFSP).aspx


Presenatation:

https://public.cfpsa.com/en/AboutUs/SISIPFS/Documents/Severance%20options_Final_SEPT7_2012ENG.pdf


----------



## bridges

Thanks for those links - very informative.

In my reading on this issue, one thing that's not clear is whether it applies to mbrs who've already released?  

In my case I transferred to the Supp Res (and took RFRG at the time), then got back in the P Res for a couple of years, then out for good in 2009.  That last batch of time had no RFRG or other payout, IIRC.  Should I be looking for an election package for that period of time, or is anyone who's already out, out of luck on this one?


----------



## dapaterson

If you were out for good in '09 (not Supp Res) then AFAIK you've got no entitlement to severance.  If you went back to the Supp Res, the situation may be different - I'm not certain.


However: From your description of your situation - PRes, transfer to Supp Res and got RFRG, back to PRes, then release; your final period of P Res Service might have an entitlement to RFRG - you must have been back in for a minimum of three years.  See form 2454-E for details.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Thanks or the links 

That is the best, understandable explanation so far, that even this finacial dinosaur can understand.

Tanks!


----------



## bridges

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you were out for good in '09 (not Supp Res) then AFAIK you've got no entitlement to severance.  If you went back to the Supp Res, the situation may be different - I'm not certain.
> 
> 
> However: From your description of your situation - PRes, transfer to Supp Res and got RFRG, back to PRes, then release; your final period of P Res Service might have an entitlement to RFRG - you must have been back in for a minimum of three years.  See form 2454-E for details.



My last pd of PRes svc was < 3 yrs.  That had occurred to me at the time as well, about addl RFRG, but no.  Anyway I'll ask the OPI just to make sure and if I find anything different, I'll post it here.  Thanks again.


----------



## ARMY_101

Have there been any insights as of yet on how to avoid the tax at the source, other than putting it in an RRSP (which is just delaying the taxes)?


----------



## dapaterson

The CF will withhold taxes at source unless you are making contributions to an RRSP, and have completed the necessary paperwork.

This will occur regardless of whether you take it immediately or on release.  It is considered as income in the year in which it is received.

That is no change; the old version of severance pay was also taxable in your hands on receipt.

Of course, if you take in on release, and you release early in the calendar year your income will be lower that year (pension will be less than pay) so taxes may be lower.

But RRSPs are the only way to defer taxes.  However, if you wait until release, you can shelter an additional $2000 per year in your RRSP for each year or part year of service prior to 1996; if you take the immediate pay-out you lose that ability.


----------



## DAA

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Have there been any insights as of yet on how to avoid the tax at the source, other than putting it in an RRSP (which is just delaying the taxes)?



There is no way to avoid it due to the fact that if you elect to receive PIL, it is classed as a "lump sum payment" and posted on your payguide (ie; through CCPS or PRSR).  No way around it.  You can only "reduce tax at source" but other than that, your stuck.

As far as I can tell, this is probably the form you need to send to CRA --->  http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/t1213/  <-----if anyone knows any different, please feel free to chime in here....

CRA will respond back with a letter of authorization, which can then accompany your PIL Election Forms when you turn them into your supporting OR.  Mind you, the "election process" does not start until Dec 12 and runs until Mar 13, so the payment will not be made until "tax year 2013".

Don't even bother trying to do a "direct transfer" (ie; from DND/CF to your RSP Admin/Fin Advisor without you even seeing any of themoney) because PIL does not qualify.  This can only be done when you actually "retire"...  I had someone come to me today with "Direct Transfer" forms from the RSP Admin.  Apparently, as soon as they said "severance pay", that was the form they were given.  This is payment "IN LIEU OF" severance pay, so there is a huge difference....


----------



## DAA

dapaterson said:
			
		

> However, if you wait until release, you can shelter an additional $2000 per year in your RRSP for each year or part year of service prior to 1996; if you take the immediate pay-out you lose that ability.



And what dapaterson has mentioned, is in "addition" to your current RRSP limits.  So if your RRSP contributions are maxed out, you still have the benefit above available to you...BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE RETIRING!!!  This benefit DOES NOT apply to PIL...


----------



## Char1991

Brihard said:
			
		

> No. Reserve service is calendar time, not time signed in / on a route letter. That is to say, the guy who works class B for two years has exactly the same calculated service as the guy who shows up twice a month for two years.



So I will get 4.29, did a quick calculation, instead of 1.48 years worth of PIL?

Awesome.

I wasn't really following this PiLCFSP thing, but was talking with someone who worked in Releases today and searched this thread to see if he was right.  

Hmm...now to consider if I want some now or later. Decisions, decisions...


----------



## brihard

Char1991 said:
			
		

> So I will get 4.29, did a quick calculation, instead of 1.48 years worth of PIL?
> 
> Awesome.
> 
> I wasn't really following this PiLCFSP thing, but was talking with someone who worked in Releases today and searched this thread to see if he was right.
> 
> Hmm...now to consider if I want some now or later. Decisions, decisions...



Not is pretty much a no brainer. even if you're stuck taking a tax hit, if you simply invest it all you'll likely see a far better return on investment than the marginal gain of taking it on release at a higher rate of pay and potentially at a higher tax bracket.


----------



## Char1991

Brihard said:
			
		

> Not is pretty much a no brainer. even if you're stuck taking a tax hit, if you simply invest it all you'll likely see a far better return on investment than the marginal gain of taking it on release at a higher rate of pay and potentially at a higher tax bracket.



While I agree with you for the most part.  I'd rather wait until the brief in Ottawa that is being held, so that I have the full details. 

Better safe, then sorry.  :nod:


----------



## DAA

dapaterson said:
			
		

> SISIP has information posted to their website on the Severance cashout:
> 
> Presentation:
> 
> https://public.cfpsa.com/en/AboutUs/SISIPFS/Documents/Severance%20options_Final_SEPT7_2012ENG.pdf



I like how they slip the cost of "personalized" financial planning into the mix at slide # 30.  Nevertheless, the cost ($72 @ yr for Jr NCMs/Offrs and $144 @ yr for everyone else) seems to be reasonable.  So I guess it is safe to assume, that SISIP briefings are only generalized in nature.  If you want anything beyond that (ie; pertaining to your personal circumstances), you have to pay for it (ie; fee for service).

This is NOT uncommon and something you should consider based on your RRSP/Investment holdings.  IMHO, you only get, what you pay for...

http://www.moneysense.ca/2009/11/01/where-to-find-a-fee-only-financial-planner/


----------



## Harris

I was told by a SISIP rep recently that those cost tables only apply to Reg Force.  If your a reservist you pay $12/month regardless of rank.


----------



## DAA

Harris said:
			
		

> I was told by a SISIP rep recently that those cost table only apply to Reg Force.  If your a reservist you pay $12/month regardless of rank.



Is there anyone out there paying these fees that can provide more information?  Specifically, how much access you get to your "planner"  and what they can actually sell you? (ie; Mutual Funds only or can they do Stocks?)

SISIP provides a great service and  is supported by the CF but here is a quick read for anyone interested....

http://www.moneysense.ca/2012/02/29/finding-a-financial-adviser/


----------



## Occam

I've paid for the SISIP financial planning services for a few years now.  They only offer GICs and mutual funds (thru FUNDEX).  Their full list of services is here - https://public.cfpsa.com/en/AboutUs/SISIPFS/FinancialPlanning/Pages/Services.aspx.

I've been very impressed with the service.  The planner (who I believe is the manager of the Ottawa office) has a fair bit of history in the mortgage and banking business, and his advice has been outstanding.

The fees include one income tax return, and a reasonable rate for a spousal return (I think we paid $25?).  For me, dealing with issues like investing/tax sheltering my severance pay, pension splitting, and working in QC while living in ON were all made immensely easier with advice from the SISIP guy.  Whenever I've had a financial planning or investing question, I've sent it in by e-mail and always gotten a quick response.  Well worth the money in my opinion.


----------



## aahenry

Hi Everyone

I joined the res force in May 1995 and transferred to reg force in May 2001 with no break in service. I bought back my eligible reserve time for my pension, 2yrs 165 days. I just received my severance calculation and it is 10.7 years. This calculation is just my reg force time, do I not get a calculation for my 6+ years reserve time?

Thanks


----------



## MJP

aahenry said:
			
		

> Hi Everyone
> 
> I joined the res force in May 1995 and transferred to reg force in May 2001 with no break in service. I bought back my eligible reserve time for my pension, 2yrs 165 days. I just received my severance calculation and it is 10.7 years. This calculation is just my reg force time, do I not get a calculation for my 6+ years reserve time?
> 
> Thanks



Yes you do.  Don't be overly concerned right now as almost everybody I know that had previous Res time wasn't credited properly.  I suspect there will be lots of changes coming once people are trained up on how to administer it properly.


----------



## armyvern

aahenry said:
			
		

> Hi Everyone
> 
> I joined the res force in May 1995 and transferred to reg force in May 2001 with no break in service. I bought back my eligible reserve time for my pension, 2yrs 165 days. I just received my severance calculation and it is 10.7 years. This calculation is just my reg force time, do I not get a calculation for my 6+ years reserve time?
> 
> Thanks



It seems that many of the calculations are inaccurate. We've got quite a few pers who are not A/  whose rank is reflected incorrectly. One has been a fully qualified WO for 4 years, yet his official calculation paperwork deems he is a Cpl. 

I know they are going to bring up some of the LWOP categories at the conference as well ... MATA pers, for example, had to pay back pension for their periods of MATA and could not go get jobs elsewhere during their MATA as they were deemed to be still-serving members. It is considered as eligible time towards CD, promotion, pay incentives and is also pensionable time yet it has been totally deducted from the severance calculations.

I'm pretty certain more will come out on this based on the umpteen observations of incorrect "official statements" received just within our Unit. Our CC has stated that numerous locations are reporting same errors, oversights and based on her comms with outside, it will be a very hot topic in Ottawa next month.


----------



## George Wallace

Why am I not surprised.  I just had a look at my MPRR and someone back in March, unbenounced to me, made the "clerical error" of entering the location of my Spouse as being in Fredericton NB, two provinces away.  

I think we have a very serious problem with the RMS Trade and blame the stupid act of amalgamating two Trades into one.  Now our Clerks are neither masters of the Fin side, nor masters of the Admin side.  They are just confused and often found pawning their work off on ' substitutes' brought in to help them with their 'work load'.

/rant


----------



## dapaterson

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Why am I not surprised.  I just had a look at my MPRR and someone back in March, unbenounced to me, made the "clerical error" of entering the location of my Spouse as being in Fredericton NB, two provinces away.



So are you claiming SE from March onwards then?   >


----------



## George Wallace

If the CF is saying I am, I should.   :nod:      ;D


----------



## dapaterson

More seriously, there is an audit trail for every transaction in HRMS.  You should be able to ask who made that input, and request corrective action be taken to ensure they do not screw up other records (for example, suspend their input privileges until they undergo remedial training).


----------



## bridges

Not only that, but depending on the nature of the error there may be someone whose spouse actually IS in Fredericton but now isn't reflected as such, so they could be adversely affected too.


----------



## aahenry

Good Day

Thanks for your posts. I read in CBI 204.40 and on the calculation of eligible service document that it says " Most recent date of enrolment" Can this mean that because my most recent date of enrolment is when I transfered to Reg force, 17 May 2001, that my previous time in the Res 01 May 95 - 16 May 2001 is not eligible?

Thanks


----------



## Zoomie

The official definition of enrollment according to the CF is when you took your oath or swore allegiance, I know that I didn't swear another oath when I CT'd from PRes to RegF.   I never enrolled into the RegF, I transferred into it.


----------



## dapaterson

aahenry said:
			
		

> Good Day
> 
> Thanks for your posts. I read in CBI 204.40 and on the calculation of eligible service document that it says " Most recent date of enrolment" Can this mean that because my most recent date of enrolment is when I transfered to Reg force, 17 May 2001, that my previous time in the Res 01 May 95 - 16 May 2001 is not eligible?
> 
> Thanks



This is a well-known issue; the computers that ran off the reports used the date for the start of your service in your current CF component.  If you request the payment in lieu, include a memo to your OR stating that you have prior Reserve Force service and requesting that they ad your Reserev MPRR to your file.

Anyone with Res service (whether they are currently Reg or Res) will have their file audited before payment, regardless of the amount they take.


----------



## Sig_Des

So, I received my calculation (out of whack of course, due to prior time served), and am aware that my file will go to Ottawa.

Here's a question someone in the admin system could maybe answer. As of the date that they calculated, I was an Acting/Lacking MCpl (had been for about a year). Therefore, I was calculated at Cpl.

I'm of the mind that if you're being paid a certain rank, doing the job at that rank, and paying taxes based off the income, shouldn't you be paid out at that rank, especially if getting the qualification to be substantive is for reasons out of your hand (careers slow to courseload, training system backlog, etc)?

It's not a huge difference really, but I'd like to hear some opinions.


----------



## dapaterson

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> So, I received my calculation (out of whack of course, due to prior time served), and am aware that my file will go to Ottawa.
> 
> Here's a question someone in the admin system could maybe answer. As of the date that they calculated, I was an Acting/Lacking MCpl (had been for about a year). Therefore, I was calculated at Cpl.
> 
> I'm of the mind that if you're being paid a certain rank, doing the job at that rank, and paying taxes based off the income, shouldn't you be paid out at that rank, especially if getting the qualification to be substantive is for reasons out of your hand (careers slow to courseload, training system backlog, etc)?
> 
> It's not a huge difference really, but I'd like to hear some opinions.



The CBI, as approved by Treasury Board, states that if you elect to take the payment in lieu, it will be paid out at your substantive rank. (CBI 204.40(6) has the formula).

If you take in on release, and on release you hold an acting rank, the same rule applies (CBI 204.40(8 )).


----------



## comicnut

I was at the PIL conference.

To answer a few questions here:

Many estimates were done using the most recent enrolment date yes.
However all CF Service time is eligible....but minus any non-eligible time (punishments, NES, EDT, LWOP etc) and minus any time that has already been paid out.
So if you were in the Reserves and already received your Gratuity when you left then that time won't count.

Another person asked about acting lacking.  The benefit is paid based on substantive rank...period!  If you are acting/lacking and paid at a higher rank it does not matter it is based on substantive.    If you feel it is unfair...nobody is forcing you to take the payout now, you can elect to take the money when you release.  That way you will maxamize your payout for any other incentives and promotions you may earn.  

These are not my opinions but come from the information from the seminar in Ottawa.


----------



## Sig_Des

comicnut said:
			
		

> Another person asked about acting lacking.  The benefit is paid based on substantive rank...period!  If you are acting/lacking and paid at a higher rank it does not matter it is based on substantive.  Remember that you will not elect right now though, you do not elect until 14 Dec - 13 Mar 2013.  *So you have until then to become substantive*.  If you still feel it is unfair...nobody is forcing you to take the payout now, you can elect to take the money when you release.  That way you will maxamize your payout for any other incentives and promotions you may earn.



So if someone who were Acting lacking at the time of the calculation were to be substantive by the time they elect, they'll recalculate?


----------



## comicnut

"Remember that you will not elect right now though, you do not elect until 14 Dec - 13 Mar 2013.  So you have until then to become substantive"  This statement was incorrect, I apolagize.

Yes you are kind of correct, lol.

I say it that way because what you received was not a calculation, only an estimate.

The administers of the PIL know that there are many people whom have wrong estimates, particularily those with previous service.  All that is required is for your BOR to submit the substantiating documents (in your case course report) with your file.

The BOR's will be informed of how to assemble said file.


----------



## comicnut

I will also add that there is one benefit if there is no break in service between different components.

If you were say paid out 17 years for your 17 1/2 years in the Reserves and then joined the Regs without a break in service the 1/2 year will carry forward into your new payout.
If there was a break, then that 1/2 year in the Reserves is lost.

Another benefit that has come out, some people may not be aware, is that we have gone back to the old way of calculating eligible time.
It used to be if you were effective all year, then that counted as 1 year, no matter how much you got paid.
Then it was changed so that your severance was based upon how much you paraded.

For this PIL roll-out they have gone back to the old method so that will enhance the benefit for many Reservists.


----------



## Rheostatic

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> So if someone who were Acting lacking at the time of the calculation were to be substantive by the time they elect, they'll recalculate?


No, they will use the substantive rank you held on 1 Mar 12.


> 26. What rate of pay will be used to determine the payment in lieu (PiL) of Canadian Forces Severance Pay (CFSP)?
> The payment in lieu (PiL) of a severance benefit will be based on the CF member’s substantive rank and pay increment for the following effective dates:
> • 1 October 2011, Colonel and above or Lieutenant-Colonel Legal and above;
> • date of promotion if promoted substantively to Colonel or Lieutenant-Colonel Legal between 1 October 2011 and 29 February 2012; and
> • 1 March 2012, NCMs and all other Officers.


I'd suggest everyone read this FAQ, as it goes into much more detail than the SISIP slides: 
http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dpsp/pdf/english/pi-qa_e.pdf


----------



## comicnut

Yes, I didn't say that correctly initially.

When you elect to get paid out now it is what your substantive rank is, as of 1 Mar 2012.

If you elect to wait until you release then it is calculated at your substative rank when you release.


----------



## dapaterson

SISIP has posted dates for briefings on many bases.  Some have already occured.  You can see the list at:

https://public.cfpsa.com/en/AboutUs/SISIPFS/Documents/PiL_Briefings_(Sept_19).pdf

Note that scertain bases are considered "satellites" of others on this list; if your base isn't listed, look at some of the bases close to yours.  For example, North Bay sessions are listed under Petawawa.


----------



## comicnut

Here are some other main points:

1. To inform all members not to elect before the election date.

2. Any elections signed before the election time or received before the election time will be considered void.

3. Any election that is made during election period is irrevocable no matter what.  So members must ensure they have all the facts.  It was heavily suggested that they talk to their financial counselor before making a decision.


----------



## McFarlane

I have a quick question on this.

I received my election papers in the mail last week, but it didn't inlcude all of my time.  

As of March 2012, I have been a Reg F Mbr for 5.29 yrs, which is what is on my election paperwork.  However, I was a mbr of the PRes (Not on ED&T or NES) for 1.56 yrs prior to this.  It was a Component Transfer, with uninterrupted service in Nov 2006.  

I looked hard through the CANFORGEN as well as CBI 204.40 - CFSP, and the only exceptions I found there were:

“eligible service” means a member’s number of years of service after the member’s most recent date of enrolment but does not include any years of:

(a) YPB (see definition);

(b) service in the Supplementary Reserve, Cadet Organizations Administration and Training Service and Canadian Rangers, other than years that the member has served on Class “B” Reserve Service or Class “C” Reserve Service;

(c) exemption from Primary Reserve duty and training, other than years of exemption under QR&O articles 9.09 (Exemption from Duty and Training – Maternity Purposes) and 9.10 (Exemption from Duty and Training – Parental Purposes);

(d) Primary Reserve non-effective strength, as determined by or under the authority of the Chief of the Defence Staff;

(e) leave without pay granted under QR&O articles 16.25 (Leave Without Pay and Allowances);

(f) a limitation of payments under QR&O article 203.20 (Officers – Regular Force – Limitation of Payments);

(g) absence — without leave or as a deserter — for which a forfeiture has been imposed under QR&O article 208.30 (Forfeitures – Officers and Non-commissioned Members); and

(h) a forfeiture that has been imposed under QR&O article 208.31 (Forfeitures, Deductions and Cancellations – When No Service Rendered). (service admissible)"

Ref: CBI 204.40 - Canadian Forces Severance Pay

None of which applies to my situation as I've been able to decipher it.  I did buy back my pension as well, if that makes any difference.

Anyone know of a reason I would not be eligible for the PRes time?  

Thanks in advance.


----------



## dapaterson

You are eligible for your PRes time.  The paperwork was generated based on your start date with the Reg F due to the way the CF's personnel databases are structured.

Your unit/ship OR should be able to assist - you'll likely need them to run off a copy of your Reserve MPRR.  They should have instructions on setting up temporary dockets for pers in your situation.


----------



## DAA

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You are eligible for your PRes time. Your unit/ship OR should be able to assist - you'll likely need them to run off a copy of your Reserve MPRR.



What about people with YTEP time back in the 80's?   Got one thrown at me today and had no idea what to say....  Case in point - guy joined in 83 under YTEP, then over to the Reg F, then retired from the Reg F and received Severance Pay for 26 years on transfer to the PRes (ie; full-time Class B) and received their PIL Estimate which was just over 2 years.  So they are now asking about the one year of YTEP (ie; Class C) back in 83 which was not factored into the severance pay calculation when they retired in 2010.

I am sure there are many Reg F pers out there who joined under this program which are not being credited with the additional year of service and documentation on the Pers File may be a tad bit thin....


----------



## PMedMoe

DAA said:
			
		

> I am sure there are many Reg F pers out there who joined under this program which are not being credited with the additional year of service and documentation on the Pers File may be a tad bit thin....



My YTEP info is on my CF 1007 and I also have a form for the calculation of my pensionable time which includes it as well.


----------



## DAA

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> My YTEP info is on my CF 1007 and I also have a form for the calculation of my pensionable time which includes it as well.



If you were a YTEP, how did you get a 1007 when you didn't belong to any Reserve Unit that would normally issue these?  The form for Pensionable Service (CFSA 100) is only for pension purposes and is not reflective of actual time served but rather "pensionable time served".


----------



## PMedMoe

DAA said:
			
		

> If you were a YTEP, how did you get a 1007 when you didn't belong to any Reserve Unit that would normally issue these?  The form for Pensionable Service (CFSA 100) is only for pension purposes and is not reflective of actual time served but rather "pensionable time served".



I was a YTEP, then Reg, then Res, then Reg again (yeah, I know, complicated...).  The other form (to me) is just "additional" proof of service as one of the dates on the 1007 is cut off.  Not to mention, my MPRR states BMQ was finished in January 1987.  I will be bringing all of those for my reassessment.


----------



## McFarlane

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You are eligible for your PRes time.  The paperwork was generated based on your start date with the Reg F due to the way the CF's personnel databases are structured.
> 
> Your unit/ship OR should be able to assist - you'll likely need them to run off a copy of your Reserve MPRR.  They should have instructions on setting up temporary dockets for pers in your situation.



Thanks a lot for the info.  Now I can properly inform my clerk.

Thanks again


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

My biggest question still remains what is to be done about the non-eligible time in the form of a break in service.

My example.
Reg Force - 2.5 years, 4(c) release on 31 October 2004, return of contributions given but no severance due to not meeting the time in criteria
Component Transfer to the PRes that didn't take effect until 08 November 2004.

So basically I'm wondering if that break of 8 days is going to leave my RegF time as not being eligible for the pay in lieu?


----------



## dapaterson

Yes, the 8 day break will render the prior service an ineligible - unless you were transferred to the Supp Res as an interim measure.

If you were on the Supp Res for those 8 days your prior Reg F service would count, but your 8 days of Supp Res time would not.


I'd still recommend checking with your unit's OR, though, in case any aditional information has been pushed down that I haven't seen.


----------



## armyvern

So, word in today ...

If any of you are paying back any overpayments for claims etc, owing taxes to the province or the feds, in arrears for child support, garnishee etc ... (even if you have an agreement/authorization to deduct from pay over X amount of time)

this _will_ be deducted from your PiL if you choose to cash in any/all severance now. It will be deducted in-whole (if your PiL covers the entire amount) or partially if your PiL only covers part of it (ie: you'll see ZERO) and it will still continue to count as income for the year. Previous agreements for installment payments are moot.

Something to be very aware of when making your election if the shoe fits.

I think I have one troop who can therefore expect to get back $1.99 if he cashes in now ...  > (kidding ... )


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

A friend of mine said he attended a SISIP brief where they told him those with reserve time could wait up to 4 years to see the money.  Anyone else hear this?


----------



## PuckChaser

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> A friend of mine said he attended a SISIP brief where they told him those with reserve time could wait up to 4 years to see the money.  Anyone else hear this?



If its anything like the Res Pension buyback, I'd believe it.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Ouch


----------



## bridges

Ouch, indeed.  :   Happy (Army) Reserve Recognition Day!

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/107718.25.html


----------



## DAA

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> A friend of mine said he attended a SISIP brief where they told him those with reserve time could wait up to 4 years to see the money.  Anyone else hear this?



Merely speculation at this point in time, as we won't really know, until the time comes.  Nevertheless, you have to take into consideration that the entitlement will have to be "verified" based on a request for PIL, so it could take time to track down supporting documentation to confirm the numbers.

Should be interesting.....


----------



## MikeL

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You are eligible for your PRes time.  The paperwork was generated based on your start date with the Reg F due to the way the CF's personnel databases are structured.
> 
> Your unit/ship OR should be able to assist - you'll likely need them to run off a copy of your Reserve MPRR.  They should have instructions on setting up temporary dockets for pers in your situation.




Hopefully this info will make it out to all the units... where I am we are hearing that Reserve time doesn't count for the severance pay.. or if it does you need 10+ years in the Reserves.


----------



## DAA

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Hopefully this info will make it out to all the units... where I am we are hearing that Reserve time doesn't count for the severance pay.. or if it does you need 10+ years in the Reserves.



Obviously someone in your area didn't read the regulation.   :facepalm:


----------



## PhilB

How does this work if you received the reserve retirement gratuity? I transfered from the res to the reg 1.5 years ago. Unbroken service with 11 years in the res. I didnt "elect" anything at the time of my release from the res but subsequently received a retirement gratuity cheque. I am pretty sure this precludes me from counting that service towards the severance pay? Anyone able to shed some light on this?

Thanks.


----------



## George Wallace

PhilB said:
			
		

> How does this work if you received the reserve retirement gratuity? I transfered from the res to the reg 1.5 years ago. Unbroken service with 11 years in the res. I didnt "elect" anything at the time of my release from the res but subsequently received a retirement gratuity cheque. I am pretty sure this precludes me from counting that service towards the severance pay? Anyone able to shed some light on this?
> 
> Thanks.



That "Gratuity Cheque" is just that; a gratuity.  It has no affect on your time served or the amount of time that you would have to buy back.  I elected to buy back Reserve time and had all the calculations, etc. done and was already paying back before I received my "Gratuity Cheque".


----------



## PhilB

thanks for the quick reply. So what your saying is that regardless of whether I received the gratuity, as long as my service is unbroken, all of my reserve time can and should be counted towards my severance calculation?


----------



## Zoomie

/rumour alert

My SOR is informing our members that the CFSP eligible service criteria is going to change - to the effect that the PRes member will only get accounted for Class B/C time (Like the COATS, CIC members currently do).  I've re-read the CANFORGEN, CBI 204.40 and the relevant DGCB references - nothing there to indicate a rewrite is in process.  I'm hoping that my admin staff simply got duff-Gen from the meeting in Ottawa.  If other admin members could confirm or deny this rumour...  They say that a new CANFORGEN will come out soon to reflect these changes.

??


----------



## PuckChaser

Zoomie said:
			
		

> My SOR is informing our members that the CFSP eligible service criteria is going to change - to the effect that the PRes member will only get accounted for Class B/C time (Like the COATS, CIC members currently do).



I've stopped trusting ORs who have "information" before its formerly released. If all the stuff out of there was true from their rumour mill, LDA would have disappeared 2 years ago. If its not written down, its not true.


----------



## GeorgeD

I received a letter from the CF about Payment in Lieu of CF Severance Pay and they have counted 1.56 years or 1 year and 205 days which does not include my 3 years in the reserves. Is my reserve time not counted because I had to release from the reserves to join the reg force or is due to lack of time in the reserves?


Thank You


----------



## MeatheadMick

This has been discussed previously in this thread. Short answer it _should_ be. There are many of us in the same boat, it's just all about hurry up and wait.


----------



## GeorgeD

Thank You for the Information MPMick.


----------



## MeatheadMick

Sorry I couldn't provide anything else. Speculation has it that reserve time WILL be calculated as part of your PiL, however has not been done yet. The most important thing to do right now is ensure the personal info on your calculation is correct (SN, name, rank, etc.) and perhaps update your OR with the date of your enrolment into the reserves.

Cheers


----------



## dapaterson

Your OR should be able to access your MPRR from your Reserve service within PeopleSoft.

Unfortunately, a number of years ago it was decided to have separate MPRRs for Res and Reg service; a better software design choice then would have avoided lots of problems & extra work now.


----------



## CampCricket

I got my calculation too and don't understand their math on the number of years eligible. 
There is a 4 year difference between the years of pensionable service and what they come up with. 

I got my pension calculation in June. It said I had 17.5 years

Severance calc says I only get 13 years. They also list several of my class A years as being on the supp list for half the year. I never bounced on and off the supp list several years in a row. I just never went away those summers for training. Anyone else see that on their calculation???

I thought we still get the retirement gratuity for years served up to 2006 and then they use a dif calculation after that??? As per the ne pension act for reservist - or dd that all change with this new severance buyout???

Clue me in. I'm in the dark and my orderly room isn't much help.


----------



## dapaterson

Retirement gratuity is no more; there's only CF Severance.

As for your situation, get a copy of your MPRR and look over it; there may be some information there.


----------



## CampCricket

My mprr doesnt show match their assessment. 

I had a brief period of ed&t for one of the years in question. The rest was your typical class a for regular training years. My unit has no training from may to end of August - the same periods that match this supposive supp res periods they dreamed up. I will have to start writing and ask them to clarify. Was wondering if anyone else has same experience ad what they did.


----------



## ARMY_101

Zoomie said:
			
		

> /rumour alert
> 
> My SOR is informing our members that the CFSP eligible service criteria is going to change - to the effect that the PRes member will only get accounted for Class B/C time (Like the COATS, CIC members currently do).  I've re-read the CANFORGEN, CBI 204.40 and the relevant DGCB references - nothing there to indicate a rewrite is in process.  I'm hoping that my admin staff simply got duff-Gen from the meeting in Ottawa.  If other admin members could confirm or deny this rumour...  They say that a new CANFORGEN will come out soon to reflect these changes.
> 
> ??



There is a CANFORGEN amendment coming soon. What that is, we'll see.


----------



## ARMY_101

GD said:
			
		

> I received a letter from the CF about Payment in Lieu of CF Severance Pay and they have counted 1.56 years or 1 year and 205 days which does not include my 3 years in the reserves. Is my reserve time not counted because I had to release from the reserves to join the reg force or is due to lack of time in the reserves?
> 
> 
> Thank You



According to a briefing this morning from SISIP, Res time is only counted if there was no break in service. So if you released and re-enrolled RegF, only the RegF time is counted.


----------



## Teeps74

Zoomie said:
			
		

> /rumour alert
> 
> My SOR is informing our members that the CFSP eligible service criteria is going to change - to the effect that the PRes member will only get accounted for Class B/C time (Like the COATS, CIC members currently do).  I've re-read the CANFORGEN, CBI 204.40 and the relevant DGCB references - nothing there to indicate a rewrite is in process.  I'm hoping that my admin staff simply got duff-Gen from the meeting in Ottawa.  If other admin members could confirm or deny this rumour...  They say that a new CANFORGEN will come out soon to reflect these changes.
> 
> ??



I can not see how THEY could change something to being outside the parametres of the old reserve retirement gratuity. I would love for them to keep it as is, but worst case would be 3.5 days per year worked up to 20 then 7 days per year worked and that does cover CL A time (at 19.09 yrs for me, that will be a bit of a kick in the junk as I was and am planning on staying in a while longer yet... just 104 days to my 20).

They cut the CL A time and well... I don't know... I could not see how that would be seen as fair and equitable based on what was previously offered.


----------



## brihard

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> I can not see how THEY could change something to being outside the parametres of the old reserve retirement gratuity. I would love for them to keep it as is, but worst case would be 3.5 days per year worked up to 20 then 7 days per year worked and that does cover CL A time (at 19.09 yrs for me, that will be a bit of a kick in the junk as I was and am planning on staying in a while longer yet... just 104 days to my 20).
> 
> They cut the CL A time and well... I don't know... I could not see how that would be seen as fair and equitable based on what was previously offered.



Moreover, if they try to complicate this by tracking service, all of a sudden the adminsitrative burden balloons. Where are they going to get the pers necessarily to review and calculate this in a reasonably timely manner- the reserve pension cell? Oh wait...


----------



## ARMY_101

Brihard said:
			
		

> Moreover, if they try to complicate this by tracking service, all of a sudden the adminsitrative burden balloons. Where are they going to get the pers necessarily to review and calculate this in a reasonably timely manner- the reserve pension cell? Oh wait...



They're standing up a special cell just for processing severance pay. They're under DMCA 4.


----------



## brihard

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> They're standing up a special cell just for processing severance pay. They're under DMCA 4.



Yes, and even under the current plans that cell will be hiring reservists on Class B til 17 Nov 2014; that's before any complicated process of calculating precise durations of Class B and C service and the thousand inevitable minor goofs that will have to be revisited. The point I was getting at is that we have apst experience suggesting this has high potential to be an adminsitrative nightmare that will have people waiting for years to get what should be very simple to figure out- and under the current policy, is. Having settled on what they have, and having figured costs out already, why frig with it?


----------



## Teeps74

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yes, and even under the current plans that cell will be hiring reservists on Class B til 17 Nov 2014; that's before any complicated process of calculating precise durations of Class B and C service and the thousand inevitable minor goofs that will have to be revisited. The point I was getting at is that we have apst experience suggesting this has high potential to be an adminsitrative nightmare that will have people waiting for years to get what should be very simple to figure out- and under the current policy, is. Having settled on what they have, and having figured costs out already, why frig with it?



Might not be redressable... But, honorary Cols do not bother with the redress system anyways. Any such plan to cut the CL A component of the reserve gratuity, will likely result in lots of grumbling in the messes. Honoraries have been known to frequent messes. I'll leave it at that...

Oh, and paying people to figure out ways to cheap people out... Well, this is all just rumour and supposition.


----------



## brihard

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Oh, and paying people to figure out ways to cheap people out... Well, this is all just rumour and supposition.



The positions int he PILS cell are up on REO, but yes- what specifically those pers will be doing remains speculation. We can only hope that the approach will simply be to verify calendar years of service, pay out, and get this squared away ASAP.


----------



## dapaterson

Brihard said:
			
		

> The positions int he PILS cell are up on REO, but yes- what specifically those pers will be doing remains speculation. We can only hope that the approach will simply be to verify calendar years of service, pay out, and get this squared away ASAP.



That verification may be quite detailed, as records aren't always kept properly.  As well, for anyone with mixed Res and Reg service, they must verify what has previously been paid out as severance or RFRG (if anything).

Nowhere near as complex as the Reserve pension buyback, but almost an order of magnitude more people (90K vs 12K).


----------



## brihard

dapaterson said:
			
		

> That verification may be quite detailed, as records aren't always kept properly.  As well, for anyone with mixed Res and Reg service, they must verify what has previously been paid out as severance or RFRG (if anything).
> 
> Nowhere near as complex as the Reserve pension buyback, but almost an order of magnitude more people (90K vs 12K).



Yup, understood- which I think only adds to my point as to how huge a gong show it will be if they alter the PIL severage formula.


----------



## commander

So apparently if you choose a partial payment of 50% or less, it is processed locally on your base specifically by the same people that process your pay. Now, in the event you choose 100% pil instead, it is processed at NDHQ and you will receive payment within 2-3 years (and yes you pay taxes only in the actual payment year).

my main issue with the second part is that i feel the CF is incentivizing us to choose 50% or lower. All whilst if someone picks 100% and they take 2-3 years to pay, they stand to make millions in interest with our money, yet i see no plan to pass on the revenues. 

now the main question is, is it constitutional for the DND to play revenue with our benefits ? or limit the number of people processing in order to fulfil an internal agenda ? seems the easiest way to resolve this is to have the DND transfer both the funds and authority to another department or independent authority for processing.


----------



## brihard

Here's one I'm trying to figure out. Let's say someone elects in December to take their payout. Then at some point in 2013 they release. Having already made the decision to elect at 100% prior to initiating release, are they going to get boned out of any or all of it? Or, having stopped the clock at March 2012, does that mean that anyone releasing prior to either 10 or 20 years won't be penalized?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

commander said:
			
		

> So apparently if you choose a partial payment of 50% or less, it is processed locally on your base specifically by the same people that process your pay.



Where did you hear this?


----------



## commander

Lone Wolf AT said:
			
		

> Where did you hear this?



official unit brief, so its legit, you can confirm this with your CO. The part about incentivization is my 2 cents but its very obvious


----------



## commander

ndhq had apparently allocated 2 clerks to deal with this and as of last friday it has been increased to 6, nonetheless we are taking about 85000+ claims, and this is not reasonable if you ask me


----------



## PiperDown

commander said:
			
		

> my main issue with the second part is that i feel the CF is incentivizing us to choose 50% or lower. All whilst if someone picks 100% and they take 2-3 years to pay, they stand to make millions in interest with our money, yet i see no plan to pass on the revenues.



2-3 years to pay ?   First I have heard this.  We were briefed 4 months.


----------



## brihard

commander said:
			
		

> ndhq had apparently allocated 2 clerks to deal with this and as of last friday it has been increased to 6, nonetheless we are taking about 85000+ claims, and this is not reasonable if you ask me



There are four reserve employment positions being advertised (and they have been for some time now) to work in the PIL cell. Those positions are advertised to run until November 2014.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I am guessing that regardless of 50 or 100%, those with Reg and Res servi e will still be audited by Ottawa?


----------



## commander

Brihard said:
			
		

> There are four reserve employment positions being advertised (and they have been for some time now) to work in the PIL cell. Those positions are advertised to run until November 2014.



ya that makes sense and fits this timeline we were briefed on.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Sounds like the same clowns that brought you the Reserve Pension.... :


----------



## dapaterson

commander said:
			
		

> So apparently if you choose a partial payment of 50% or less, it is processed locally on your base specifically by the same people that process your pay. Now, in the event you choose 100% pil instead, it is processed at NDHQ and you will receive payment within 2-3 years (and yes you pay taxes only in the actual payment year).
> 
> my main issue with the second part is that i feel the CF is incentivizing us to choose 50% or lower. All whilst if someone picks 100% and they take 2-3 years to pay, they stand to make millions in interest with our money, yet i see no plan to pass on the revenues.
> 
> now the main question is, is it constitutional for the DND to play revenue with our benefits ? or limit the number of people processing in order to fulfil an internal agenda ? seems the easiest way to resolve this is to have the DND transfer both the funds and authority to another department or independent authority for processing.



The pay cell will process your payout only if (a) you elect 50% or less and (b) your service has only ever been in the Reg F.  This is intended to speed things up where possible while taking a minimal amount of risk.

There is no other department with the capacity to process 100K+ payments, based on a set of business rules that the other department wouldn't understand, and do it faster.  Given the amount that will be paid out the department needs to take proper precautions to ensure it is done correctly.

The government does not make interest on the money.  The government owes hundreds of billions in debt; if the payout takes longer, it means the government may be paying less in interest, but certainly isn't making money.


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View

Also if you are a "complex" case, i.e. Res transferred to Reg or Reg transferred to Res, you will automatically get audited regardless if you chose PIL of 50% or less. Therefore expect 2-3 years before receiving payment.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Lets hope your wrong. I fear your not though.


----------



## commander

thanks for the good info dapaterson, hopefully they change how theyre gonna handle this ultimately for the benefit of the members


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca, commander.

Please capitalize where appropriate and use proper punctuation.


----------



## PuckChaser

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Where did you hear this?



Was briefed to my unit by SISIP recently. They are apparently anticipating that up to 70% will be done locally and any with higher percentage or prior reserve service will go to Ottawa and be audited before issue. The office is undermanned to do all the audits, so they may be easing the burden by having local payments for only partial amounts.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

When they say they will audit those from Res to Reg would that entail digging out their Res MPRR or going off the information on their Reg MPRR?


----------



## PuckChaser

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> When they say they will audit those from Res to Reg would that entail digging out their Res MPRR or going off the information on their Reg MPRR?



They didn't specify but I think they're going to pull from RPSR to get correct service dates and determine if there was a break in service.


----------



## ARMY_101

Rumour from our RSM as of today is that the severance pay will also be allowed to be deposited into TFSA's without withholding tax at the source (same as the RRSP exemption).

Here's how it will work (for the RRSP exemption as well as TFSA's if that's correct):

- Apply for exemption from withholding tax at the source
- Army sends you all of your money without tax being deducted
- You must prove to the army/CRA that *all* of your money went into an RRSP or TFSA
- If proof of this is not provided, you will be taxed on the amount you were initially given tax-free

Quite the sketchy process to give all the money tax-free to the members and trust that they'll put it all into an RRSP  >


----------



## dapaterson

Your RSM is wrong.  TFSAs have after tax income deposited into them.  If you want to put money into your TFSA, income tax will be withheld at source.

RRSP direction is already out; the admin instructions are posted to the DWAN and I believe to the internet as well. 

Theonly difference between what you wrote and the actual policy is that once you complete and submit the paperwork you do not have to prove to the CF that you put it into an RRSP; come income tax time, if you didn't, you'll be on the hook for al tlhe taxes that were not withheld at source.


----------



## commander

i truly hope that in the event of war we receive the message and orders in a clearer fashion than this, as chaos knows no leadership yet at the same time answers to no one.


----------



## Ostrozac

Does anyone have a good definition of "release"?

I have crunched my own personal numbers, and I will not be cashing this out "immediately" -- but I am trying to financial plan when I will be getting my severance pay. I used to be in the Primary Reserve, and after I retire from the Regular Force I fully intend on returning to the armory floor. So let's say I have 20-odd weeks of severance coming to me on release. Do I get that sum when I retire from the Reg Force, and component transfer back to the PRes, or is it deferred until I eventually get out of the Primary Reserve? So will it be paid at my substantive rank in the Reg Force, or at my later substantive rank in the P Res?

The CBI says:

"204.40(7) (CFSP — Entitlement) A member is entitled — on the day before the member ceases to serve in the Regular Force or in the Primary Reserve — to CFSP..."

Which I can interpret either way. Your last day in the reg force is the day you cease to serve in the reg force. But it is not the day you cease to serve in the reg or reserve force.


----------



## ARMY_101

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Does anyone have a good definition of "release"?
> 
> I have crunched my own personal numbers, and I will not be cashing this out "immediately" -- but I am trying to financial plan when I will be getting my severance pay. I used to be in the Primary Reserve, and after I retire from the Regular Force I fully intend on returning to the armory floor. So let's say I have 20-odd weeks of severance coming to me on release. Do I get that sum when I retire from the Reg Force, and component transfer back to the PRes, or is it deferred until I eventually get out of the Primary Reserve? So will it be paid at my substantive rank in the Reg Force, or at my later substantive rank in the P Res?
> 
> The CBI says:
> 
> "204.40(7) (CFSP — Entitlement) A member is entitled — on the day before the member ceases to serve in the Regular Force or in the Primary Reserve — to CFSP..."
> 
> Which I can interpret either way. Your last day in the reg force is the day you cease to serve in the reg force. But it is not the day you cease to serve in the reg or reserve force.



Release = when you're completely out of the CF; not with the Primary Reserves, Rangers, CIC, or Supp Res.


----------



## commander

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Release = when you're completely out of the CF; not with the Primary Reserves, Rangers, CIC, or Supp Res.



based on this, if the person above releases then joins the pres he'll get his cash, if he/she component transfers into pres or whatever then he'll have to wait till the release from there, technicalities i guess


----------



## Fishbone Jones

commander said:
			
		

> i truly hope that in the event of war we receive the message and orders in a clearer fashion than this, as chaos knows no leadership yet at the same time answers to no one.





			
				commander said:
			
		

> based on this, if the person above releases then joins the pres he'll get his cash, if he/she component transfers into pres or whatever then he'll have to wait till the release from there, technicalities i guess



commander,

Perhaps you missed this?



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Welcome to Army.ca, commander.
> 
> Please capitalize where appropriate and use proper punctuation.



We likely won't be asking again.

Please try set the example that your username implies.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## ARMY_101

commander said:
			
		

> based on this, if the person above releases then joins the pres he'll get his cash, if he/she component transfers into pres or whatever then he'll have to wait till the release from there, technicalities i guess



Right. But if you release from the Reg F then attempt to re-enroll in a PRes unit you're likely going to be waiting a while...


----------



## brihard

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Right. But if you release from the Reg F then attempt to re-enroll in a PRes unit you're likely going to be waiting a while...



Yes, almost certainly. I've got one applicant who came to me eight months after release from RegF infantry; experienced Cpl, a deployment, a few good courses, etc. it has taken almost fully a year for them to determine via PLAR that all of his courses are still good to go as a skilled applicant to our infantry reserve unit. If you want to go from regs to reserves, CT. DO NOT release, because you'll have no easy 'back in'. Sorry for the tangent.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Maybe it was unique but I found the briefs given by SISIP within MARLANT were very clear and answered all questions. I personally thought that the distribution of the information (though I don't agree with the move itself) was very well handled. Again, maybe this one office's handling of it was unique.

Pat


----------



## CountDC

hmmmm - I am with you Pat.  Attended two sessions on this and both times it was very clear what was happening.  Both sessions were put on by the Ottawa crew involved so maybe that made a difference.

In regards to MPRR - they will not be used in this at all.

Once you sign the form it is a done deal - you can not come back later to change it.  Make sure it is what you want the first time.

If you are considering retiring in the next few years do not elect to take the PIL.  Your file has to be audited for release but that can not happen until the PIL audit is completed.  If the Pil takes 3 years, the release takes another 6 months then you will have to wait until then before you can recieve any benefits such as your pension.  If I elect the PIL and decided to retire next year I could go 2-3 years with nothing coming in while they completed all the audits.  

The government would like this all paid out and to go away  as soon as possible.  If they had their way we would already be done it so there is no form of a cash grab on the government part in delaying things.  The big delay will be the number of files that have to be done by such a small team.  Glad I am not part of that team.


----------



## Ostrozac

Actually, the biggest thing that is keeping me from taking the Payment in Lieu is that because I don't know WHEN I will receive it, I can't effectively tax plan for the money. Right now I'm posted to Ontario, and my next posting is (probably) to Quebec, with all the tax implications that come with Quebec. When I actually get this cash in my hands has a major bearing on how it is taxed. And because they aren't forecasting much besides that the audits will take "a while", I am going to be safe and keep this payment "in the bank" so to speak. Because I can control when my release date is. And to what province I move to on retirement.


----------



## dapaterson

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Actually, the biggest thing that is keeping me from taking the Payment in Lieu is that because I don't know WHEN I will receive it, I can't effectively tax plan for the money. Right now I'm posted to Ontario, and my next posting is (probably) to Quebec, with all the tax implications that come with Quebec. When I actually get this cash in my hands has a major bearing on how it is taxed. And because they aren't forecasting much besides that the audits will take "a while", I am going to be safe and keep this payment "in the bank" so to speak. Because I can control when my release date is. And to what province I move to on retirement.



If you have no prior Res F service and take half or less you'll get it almost immediately - no audit until release.


----------



## Ostrozac

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you have no prior Res F service and take half or less you'll get it almost immediately - no audit until release.



Which doesn't apply to me -- I have prior reserve service. As does much (maybe most? I haven't seen good statistics) of the Regular Force. Even if I only want fifty bucks in lieu, it's going to be subject to an audit.


----------



## ARMY_101

CANFORGEN 219/12 CMP 102/12 051908Z NOV 12
PAYMENT IN LIEU OF CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY - UPDATE
UNCLASSIFIED


REF: A. CANFORGEN 062/12 

B. CANFORGEN 119/12 



THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO: 


PROVIDE A SITREP 


CLARIFY VARIOUS POINTS IN REF A AND 


PROVIDE MEMBERS WITH ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THE PAYMENT IN LIEU (PIL) OF THE CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY (CFSP) 


TO DATE, ALL ELIGIBLE CF MEMBERS SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED A LETTER WITH THE ESTIMATE OF THE NUMBER OF YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE. THE ESTIMATES WERE BASED ON THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THE PAY SYSTEMS FOR THE REG F (CCPS) OR THE RES F (RPSR). THE ESTIMATE MAY NOT SHOW ALL ELIGIBLE CF SERVICE (E.G.CONTINUOUS REGULAR FORCE (REG F) AND RESERVE FORCE (RES F) SERVICE). IF THIS IS THE CASE, CF MEMBERS WHO WISH TO RECEIVE A PIL OF CFSP SHOULD CONTACT THEIR BASE OR UNIT ORDERLY ROOM TO VERIFY THEIR SERVICE 


CF MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT ALL ELECTIONS FOR A PIL OF CFSP MUST BE MADE DURING THE ELECTION PERIOD BETWEEN 14 DEC 12 AND 13 MAR 13. IAW POLICY PROVISIONS, ELECTIONS CANNOT BE MADE BEFORE OR AFTER THE ELECTION PERIOD. ALL ELECTION FORMS THAT ARE RECEIVED BY THE DEPT PRIOR TO THE START OF THE ELECTION PERIOD WILL BE RETURNED TO THE MEMBERS. ELECTION FORMS TO BE USED ARE PROVIDED DIRECTLY IN CBI 204.40 AT THE FOLLOWING WEBSITE ADDRESS: HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/DGCB/CBI/ENGRAPH/CBI(UNDERSCORE)CHAPTER -204(UNDERSCORE)E.ASP?SIDESECTION(EQUAL SIGN) 


WHAT FOLLOWS IS INFO THAT CF MEMBERS SHOULD CONSIDER PRIOR TO MAKING AN ELECTION 


CF MEMBERS ARE STRONGLY ENCOURAGED TO READ THE INFO WRT CFSP, PIL OF CFSP, TAXES, INCOME TAX REDUCTION, DEDUCTIONS AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO RRSP OR SPOUSAL RRSP THAT ARE FOUND IN THE CFSP/REHABILITATION LEAVE ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVE, IN THE FREQUENTLY UPDATED Q S AND A S ON THE TWO DGCB WEBSITES AND THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM WEBSITE THAT FOLLOW: 

(1). DGCB INTRANET: HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/DGCB/DPSP/ENGRAPH/PENSIONRETIREMENT(UND ERSCORE)E.ASP?SIDESECTION(EQUAL SIGN)4(AMPERSAND)SIDECAT(EQUAL SIGN)15 

(2). DGCB INTERNET: HTTP://WWW.CMP-CPM.FORCES.GC.CA/DGCB-DGRAS/PS/SG-IG/SG-IG/INDEX-ENG. ASP 

(3). DMCA 4 PIL TEAM INTRANET: HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/DGMC/ENGRAPH/DMCA4(UNDERSCORE)PIL(UNDER SCORE)TEAM(UNDERSCORE)E.ASP 


INCOME TAX, EMPLOYMENT INSURANCE AND CONTRIBUTION TO CPP/QPP WILL BE DEDUCTED FROM THE PIL OF CFSP 


INCOME TAX CONSIDERATIONS: THE TAXATION RULES FOR PIL OF THE CFSP ARE DIFFERENT FROM THOSE REGARDING A CFSP THAT IS TAKEN AT RELEASE 

(1). THE CFSP TAKEN AT RELEASE IS CONSIDERED A RETIRING ALLOWANCE AND IAW CRA RULES MEMBERS CAN TRANSFER THE ELIGIBLE PART OF THEIR CFSP TO THEIR OWN RRSP OR RPP (I.E. 2000 DOLLARS FOR EACH YEAR OR PARTIAL YEAR OF SVC PRIOR TO 1996 IN WHICH THE MEMBER WAS EMPLOYED BY THE EMPLOYER FROM WHOM THEY RECEIVED THE RETIRING ALLOWANCE AND AN ADDITIONAL 1500 DOLLARS FOR EACH YEAR OR PARTIAL YEAR OF SVC BEFORE 1989 IN WHICH NO PENSION OR DPSP BENEFIT WAS EARNED FROM EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS THAT EITHER VESTED IN THE MEMBER AT THE TIME OF PAYMENT OR WERE PAID TO THE MEMBER). FOR MORE INFO ON TRANSFERING THE ELIGIBLE PART OF A RETIRING ALLOWANCE CF MEMBERS SHOULD VIEW THE CRA WEBSITE AT: HTTP://WWW.CRA-ARC.GC.CA/TX/NDVDLS/TPCS/RRSP-REER/TRNSFRRNG/RTRNG-EN G.HTML 

(2). PIL OF CFSP RECEIVED IN WHOLE OR IN PART PRIOR TO RELEASE IS CONSIDERED EMPLOYMENT INCOME AND WILL BE TAXED AS PER THE CRA REGULATIONS. CRA TRANSFER RULES, AS DESCRIBED IN PARA 4, SUBPARA C(1) ABOVE, DO NOT APPLY TO ANY PIL OF CFSP 

(3). MEMBERS WHO HAVE UNUSED RRSP ROOM: CRA HAS ALLOWED THE EMPLOYER TO REDUCE THE REQUIRED INCOME TAX ON ALL OR PART OF THE PIL OF CFSP BY MEANS OF A TAX WAIVER OF UP TO 10 K. THE TAX WAIVER FORM IS INCLUDED IN THE CFSP AND THE REHABILITATION LEAVE ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVE. IT MUST BE ATTACHED TO THE ELECTION FORM THAT THE CF MEMBER WILL SUBMIT. AT THE TIME OF PAYMENT, INCOME TAX WILL BE WITHHELD ON ANY REMAINING AMOUNT NOT INDICATED ON THE TAX WAIVER FORM. CF MEMBERS WHO WISH TO TRANSFER MORE THAN 10K TO THEIR RRSP MUST SEND A COMPLETED T1213 TO CRA OR, IF THEY ARE QUEBEC RESIDENTS, A TP-1016-V TO MRQ. AT THE TOP OF THEIR FORM, THEY MUST INDICATE THE YEAR IN WHICH THEY WANT TO RECEIVE PAYMENT. THE TAX WAIVER PROCESS IS OUTLINED AT SECTIONS 3.13 AND 3.14 OF THE CFSP/REHABILITATION LEAVE ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVE: HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/DGCB/DPSP/ENGRAPH/DOWNLOAD(UNDERSCORE)E .ASP(QUESTION MARK)DOCID (EQUAL SIGN)52. MEMBERS MAY CONTACT THEIR LOCAL CRA TAX OFFICE BY CALLING 1-800-959-8281 OR BY WRITING TO HTTP://WWW.CRA-ARC.GC.CA/MENU-ENG.HTML. MEMBERS WHO ARE QUEBEC RESIDENTS MAY CONTACT REVENU QUEBEC BY CALLING 1-800-267-6299 OR BY WRITING TO HTTP:WWW.REVENUQUEBEC.CA/EN 


CF MEMBERS WHO ARE ON MATA OR PATA LWOP SHOULD CONSULT SERVICE CANADA TO DETERMINE THE IMPACT OF RECEIVING THE PIL OF CFSP WHILE IN RECEIPT OF MATA OR PATA BENEFITS. RESIDENTS OF QC SHOULD CONSULT EMPLOI ET SOLIDARITE SOCIALE QC CONCERNING THE IMPACT TO QC PARENTAL INSURANCE PLAN (QPIP) BENEFITS 


SHOULD THE CF MEMBER HAVE A RECOVERABLE DEBIT BALANCE OR EXTENDED RECOVERY PLAN, THE PIL OF CFSP SHALL BE USED TO RECOVER THE DEBT. SHOULD THERE BE A COURT ORDER GARNISHMENT REGARDING A COMMERCIAL DEBT OR ARREARS ON FAMILY SUPPORT, THE AMOUNTS WILL BE DEDUCTED FROM ANY PIL OF CFSP TO SATISFY ANY COURT ORDER THE DEPARTMENT HAS RECEIVED 


QUESTIONS CONCERNING POLICY PROVISIONS FOR CFSP AND PIL OF CFSP MAY BE DIRECTED TO THE FOLLOWING POSITIONAL MAILBOX: INTRANET: (PLUS SIGN)SOCIAL PROGRAMS - PROGRAMMES SOCIAUX(AT SIGN)CMP(UNDERSCORE)DPSP (AT SIGN)OTTAWA-HULL INTERNET: SOCIALPROGRAMS-PROGRAMMESSOCIAUX(AT SIGN)FORCES.GC.CA 


THE PROCESSING OF PAYMENTS WILL BE MADE ONCE ALL INFORMATION IS VALIDATED AND/OR ANY NECESSARY AUDITS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED. ALTHOUGH EACH SITUATION IS DISTINCT, CF MEMBERS WHO ARE CONSIDERING ELECTING FOR A PIL OF THE CFSP ARE ADVISED TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POSSIBLE LENGTHY PAYMENT PROCESSING TIMES GIVEN THE ANTICIPATED VOLUME OF ELECTIONS. CF MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT THIS IS AN EXTREMELY DEMANDING ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS AND THEY SHOULD NOT ANTICIPATE RECEIVING THEIR PAYMENT PRIOR TO 2013 


THERE ARE A NUMBER OF SPREADSHEETS CIRCULATING THROUGHOUT THE CF. MEMBERS ARE CAUTIONED THAT USE OF THESE SPREADSHEETS MAY PRODUCE INVALID RESULTS WRT INDIVIDUAL CALCULATIONS. IT IS STRONGLY RECOMMENDED THAT MEMBERS CONSULT WITH A PROFESSIONAL ADVISOR (FINANCIAL, INVESTMENT, TAX, ETC) IN ORDER TO ENSURE THAT THEY HAVE ALL OF THE NECESSARY INFORMATION PRIOR TO MAKING THEIR DECISION TO ELECT THE PIL OF THE CFSP 


THE FOL ARE AMENDMENTS TO REF B: 


PARA 3 B OF REF B IS TO READ AS FOLLOWS: ON OR AFTER 17 SEP 12: CF MEMBERS WHO HAVE NOT RECEIVED A PIL ESTIMATE WILL BE REQUIRED TO ADVISE THEIR UNIT CHIEF CLERK. CCPS/RPSR WILL HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO PROVIDE RE-PRINTS TO CF MEMBERS 


PARA 4 C OF REF B IS TO READ AS FOLLOWS: 3 DEC 12: DMCA PIL TEAM OPERATIONAL 


CF MEMBERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO VISIT THE WEBSITES IDENTIFIED ABOVE AND TO CONSULT WITH A PROFESSIONAL ADVISOR BEFORE MAKING THEIR DECISION. CF MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT ELECTIONS FORMS ARE NOT TO BE SUBMITTED PRIOR TO THE START OF THE ELECTION PERIOD ON 14 DEC 12 


SIGNED BY RADM A. SMITH, CMP


----------



## Eye In The Sky

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> THE PROCESSING OF PAYMENTS WILL BE MADE ONCE ALL INFORMATION IS VALIDATED AND/OR ANY NECESSARY AUDITS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED. ALTHOUGH EACH SITUATION IS DISTINCT, CF MEMBERS WHO ARE CONSIDERING ELECTING FOR A PIL OF THE CFSP ARE ADVISED TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT POSSIBLE LENGTHY PAYMENT PROCESSING TIMES GIVEN THE ANTICIPATED VOLUME OF ELECTIONS. CF MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT THIS IS AN EXTREMELY DEMANDING ADMINISTRATIVE PROCESS AND THEY SHOULD NOT ANTICIPATE RECEIVING THEIR PAYMENT PRIOR TO 2013



 :facepalm:

I am going to assume they mean 2014, which is just magical of course.


----------



## dapaterson

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> :facepalm:
> 
> I am going to assume they mean 2014, which is just magical of course.



No, they mean 2013.  Some folks think that if they submit their paperwork in the middle of Christmas block leave that it will magically be processed before the new year.

Again, if you've only ever served in the Reg F and take half or less as PIL your clerk will enter it into CCPS and you'll be paid on the next payrun (or possibly the one after).  For a large number of CF Reg F members the process will be relatively simple and painless.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Ahh, seen.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I talked to my clerk and she said there was no way to verify reserve service on her end.  That some would have to dig through the archives


----------



## ballz

Sorry for the stupid question folks but I've been on course since May and haven't been able to keep up on this, nor talk to any clerks really.

Just want to confirm that this

"CF MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT ALL ELECTIONS FOR A PIL OF CFSP MUST BE MADE DURING THE ELECTION PERIOD BETWEEN 14 DEC 12 AND 13 MAR 13."

Means that I have until 13 MAR 13 to decide whether or not I want the moneys now or whether I want to receive it when I retire.

I ask because:

"TO DATE, ALL ELIGIBLE CF MEMBERS SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED A LETTER WITH THE ESTIMATE OF THE NUMBER OF YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE."

I haven't received this yet, although all my peers have, and I'd prefer to deal with it in the new year when I get to battalion if I can.

Cheers


----------



## ARMY_101

ballz said:
			
		

> Sorry for the stupid question folks but I've been on course since May and haven't been able to keep up on this, nor talk to any clerks really.
> 
> Just want to confirm that this
> 
> "CF MEMBERS ARE REMINDED THAT ALL ELECTIONS FOR A PIL OF CFSP MUST BE MADE DURING THE ELECTION PERIOD BETWEEN 14 DEC 12 AND 13 MAR 13."
> 
> Means that I have until 13 MAR 13 to decide whether or not I want the moneys now or whether I want to receive it when I retire.
> 
> I ask because:
> 
> "TO DATE, ALL ELIGIBLE CF MEMBERS SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED A LETTER WITH THE ESTIMATE OF THE NUMBER OF YEARS OF ELIGIBLE SERVICE."
> 
> I haven't received this yet, although all my peers have, and I'd prefer to deal with it in the new year when I get to battalion if I can.
> 
> Cheers



Yes, that is the election period, but if you haven't received your letter yet, contact your OR.


----------



## MeatheadMick

Before I make my election I have to find out whether the 8 years of PiL would be better off sitting in an RRSP collecting interest over the next 20 years or taking it when I release at a higher rank/pay level.  ASSUMING I get promoted, have to see what the difference would be for the interest vs the increase in pay.... I imagine 8 weeks of Cpl pay sitting in an RRSP for 20 years is probably still better off than 8 weeks of Sgt or Warrant's pay at the end of my career.


----------



## dapaterson

Everyone's situation is different. SISIP offers inexpensive services - Id recommend giving them a call.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Its interesting to note that the RCMP have gotten or are getting theirs now or in very short order.  That is not just me saying that, I have a buddy who is ex-CF who is RCMP now and he just confirmed that tonight.

Us?   :


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Perhaps our situation is more complicated with more moving parts.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Agreed, but the latest I heard was don't expect $ for 2-3-4 years if more than 50%.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

That is true but perhaps there are more files, less people working on the files, and we have the Res to Reg pickle that probably the RCMP doesn't have a lot of. If you have no res time and are taking less then half your OR will handle the payout.


----------



## thorbahn

Question: I released in April and at the time knew nothing of severance benefits. I've heard nothing from anyone since my release so I visited my former OR and they weren't able to provide much information. Could someone PM me if there is a number for Reserve pay where I could find out what/if I am owed and when I might expect it?


----------



## Biohazardxj

You would have got it when you released from the reserves.  Provided you had enough time in to be entitled to it.


----------



## thorbahn

About 7 years in, and I got nothing, hence my question.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Under the previous RFRG, you needed 10 years to qual for it.  However, and I may wrong, if you released in April '12, I believe you would qualify for the current 'severance payment'.  Based on memory, I believe it would be equal to 7 weeks pay.  Again, I could be wrong.   :2c:


----------



## Biohazardxj

You need 10 years in to get the RFRG


----------



## dapaterson

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> You need 10 years in to get the RFRG



Incorrect.  The RFRG no longer exists. It has been replaced with the CF severance pay.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

So Monitor Mass shows that I have the RES GMT RCT/BASIC 28-JUN-1993.  Now the clerks tell me this is not good enough.  Do they mean not good enough to prove I was in the reserves or not good enough to show there was no stoppage in time?  I also have RES QL3 INFANTRY 26-JUL-1993, ASLT PNR - BASIC 06-JUL-1995 and then 04-DEC-1997, Action Hire, Reason Transfer.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

They should be able to bring  up your reserve MPRR.  And there should be a (can't remember form #, 1017 maybe?) Statement of Reserve Service that shows it all.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I asked that and they said unless its on my Pers File it would be in National Archives


----------



## turretmonster

MM is NOT the system of record for anything and that's why they can't accept it. Have the OR pull off your HRMS MPRR. If its says stuff on MM, it has to be on HRMS as MM pulls HRMS data to populate its tombstone data like crse info.  Or someone who doesn't know the two systems don't talk has added things to your MM profile, in which case, plse see my first sentence.  
TM


----------



## kratz

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> They should be able to bring  up your reserve MPRR.  And there should be a (can't remember form #, 1017  maybe?) Statement of Reserve Service that shows it all.



In an ideal world:

Pre-2005 when a member released from the PRes the *1007* Record of Reserve Service, was required by the CFRG for CTs.

After that time, MPRRs are now used.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

turretmonster said:
			
		

> MM is NOT the system of record for anything and that's why they can't accept it. Have the OR pull off your HRMS MPRR. If its says stuff on MM, it has to be on HRMS as MM pulls HRMS data to populate its tombstone data like crse info.  Or someone who doesn't know the two systems don't talk has added things to your MM profile, in which case, plse see my first sentence.
> TM



HRMS is short for what?


----------



## turretmonster

Human Resource Management System, aka People Soft. Your orderly room will know what it is. 

Its a common app across the Gov't.  It's where everything about you is stored.

http://www.dndjobs.forces.gc.ca/working-travailler/hr-rh-eng.asp


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Appreciated


----------



## Eye In The Sky

kratz said:
			
		

> In an ideal world:
> 
> Pre-2005 when a member released from the PRes the *1007* Record of Reserve Service, was required by the CFRG for CTs.
> 
> After that time, MPRRs are now used.



I CTd in '07 and I have the copy of my 1007.  IIRC, its also on my Reg Frce pers file.  I have a copy though, several actually.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Confirmed.  Anything from the MPRR no matter which MPRR is not proof according to the second senior clerk on base of time in the Reserves.  WTF


----------



## Nfld Sapper

:facepalm:


----------



## turretmonster

Then you will have to put in a request to Ottawa for a search of your records. Just about everyone who bought back their reserve time for pension purposes had a search done if they didn;t have all their pay records.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

What is the use of an MPRR then??   I guess they have to use something for a standard and the 1007 is it.


----------



## DAA

Attached is a spreadsheet I use for PIL Calculations.  This is NOT for official use and dollar values may vary based on your individual circumstances.

Yellow Column - Rate of Pay in effect based on PIL Election (1 Mar 12) or non-Election (date of release);  number of years of PIL  (or if you want to convert that over to a # of days here is a website that will help with that -->  http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html

***** - the Rate of Pay that you input in Yellow will automatically calculate downwards to add on a marginal yearly pay increase of 1.5% up to 8 years out

Pink Column - Amount to be invested
Blue Column - Rate of return on your investment

Enjoy....any questions about this spreadsheet, feel free to PM me....


----------



## Rheostatic

DAA said:
			
		

> (or if you want to convert that over to a # of days here is a website that will help with that -->  http://www.timeanddate.com/date/duration.html


 In Excel, if you subtract one date from another it will give you the difference in days.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Clerk sent me the link to Access to Information.  Said I need the info back to send in my form.  Also heard from another former reservist that he was told only Class  B time counts if you went reg force later.   :facepalm:


----------



## dapaterson

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Clerk sent me the link to Access to Information.  Said I need the info back to send in my form.  Also heard from another former reservist that he was told only Class  B time counts if you went reg force later.   :facepalm:



The former Reservist is incorrect.

All time in the Primary Reserve is counted, provided there was no interruption of service between the Reserve service and Reg F service.  CFSP will also be reduced for any period where RFRG or the prior CFSP was received.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Well truth be told I am assuming he is only going by the info given to him.  I didn't think he was correct.  Sending off the info for archives will at least expedite my claim.


----------



## PMedMoe

Just received this email today (highlights mine and the email was reviewed by DMCA):



> Despite efforts by DGCB and the chain of command to inform mbrs of potential consequences related to their decision about the PiL of CFSP, it may be necessary to amplify the fact that, if mbrs intend to release from the CF soon, more specifically after submitting their application for PiL, this decision is irrevocable and may affect and/or delay the receipt of applicable CF benefits.
> 
> For example, if a mbr opted for PiL, and in April 2013 he receives a posting msg to a destination he considers "undesirable", and subsequently decides to release from the CF, then the mbr should be aware that, although his release date is not affected, the PiL verification process could delay his first pension payment.
> 
> Because the option period for PiL is fast approaching, we suggest that ORs or teams that will receive PiL requests confirm mbrs' intentions about a possible release of CF in the next year. This will serve to ensure that mbrs make their decision in an informed and responsible manner.
> 
> We acknowledge that it may be difficult for some mbrs to make a decision about PiL because they can not predict what the future holds (posting, release, etc.). However, mbrs must understand that they are responsible for their decision, which is irrevocable.
> 
> Please dist this email to all CA mbrs in your Area/Fmn.


----------



## Greenman

This PIL is an absolute mess, if we beleive our RMS people. 

We are being told the pay out may take 2-3 years. So if you elect now, and get out in a year, you may not get a pension cheque for 2 years? That cannot be correct, yet thats what they are telling us.

When the Civ's did this last year it only took a few months to have the severence hit the banks. Why the heck would it take 3 years for the Military system to figure this out? It almost seems unreal they expect people might go months or years without a pension...........where is the Ombudsman on this one? It's a travesty, and with the election period already started there are no real answers yet, only haphazard incomplete information releases and misinformation from pleople who know very little but should now a lot more.

Sad.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Is the civvie situation cut and dry?  It potentially is not so for thousands if not 10's of thousands in the military.  How many civvies were there vs. the amount of military people?  How many people worked on the civvie process vs. the 2 doing it for the military in Ottawa?


----------



## Greenman

It was actually more complicated, with dozens of classifications and levels within those classifications. Also the civ pay out was for almost all public servants across Canada in different departments. Only a couple of barganing units are still in negotiations. Not to mention the most of the actual calculations have been done with the letter that told you how many total years you had available to collect serverance on. 

As for size, in 2010 there were over 280 000 Federal Public Servants. There are around 94 000 Reg & Res CF members.

If there are only 2 people total administering this in Ottawa, I will simply quote myself from above with the following....

"Sad"


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

It's only 3 years if you elect to take the full amount or have a mix of Reg and Res time.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Three years is too long, we could and should be able to do better than this timeframe of delivery.  We seem to be the only Federal Dept that will be years behind the rest to settle this affair.


----------



## Stoker

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Three years is too long, we could and should be able to do better than this timeframe of delivery.  We seem to be the only Federal Dept that will be years behind the rest to settle this affair.



Its like anything else we are the last to get anything. We are the last to get wage increases,and its the same reason I have been waiting over 4 years to get my buyback on my pension. We don't matter. That being said more resources should be applied to this problem.


----------



## DAA

Greenman said:
			
		

> This PIL is an absolute mess, if we beleive our RMS people.
> We are being told the pay out may take 2-3 years. So if you elect now, and get out in a year, you may not get a pension cheque for 2 years? That cannot be correct, yet thats what they are telling us.



If you believe that this will impact on your future pension benefits and receiving them, then who ever told you that is out in left field.  Severance and Pension are two different distinct issues and definitely not inter-linked...


----------



## PMedMoe

To clarify, it is the verification process that may cause the delay.  A stated in the email I posted....


----------



## GnyHwy

Verification process?  They've already done the hard part, that was figuring out how many years people had.  After that it's just -  (years in)(monthly pay)(7)(1-tax rate)/30=the money they put in bank.  Get 2 people to do calculation and it's verified.  Sheesh! :


----------



## PuckChaser

My clerks wanted me to prove I was in the Reserves, because Ottawa was too lazy to do a pull from RPSR when they issued the letters stating service. Its not like I served in the 70s...  :


----------



## PMedMoe

GnyHwy said:
			
		

> Verification process?  They've already done the hard part, that was figuring out how many years people had.  After that it's just -  (years in)(monthly pay)(7)(1-tax rate)/30=the money they put in bank.  Get 2 people to do calculation and it's verified.  Sheesh! :



Not for people whose time was calculated incorrectly.


----------



## jollyjacktar

It was so "hard" that I never received the letter from Ottawa so I worked it out for myself.  I'd hate to see how they do "easy".


----------



## Fishbone Jones

DAA said:
			
		

> If you believe that this will impact on your future pension benefits and receiving them, then who ever told you that is out in left field.  Severance and Pension are two different distinct issues and definitely not inter-linked...


I've heard that once you retire, it'll take 2-3 years to recieve either one, if you're a Reservist. Severence or pension. So it doesn't matter if they are two different distinct issues and definitely not inter-linked, you're still not getting them in a timely fashion.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

........and what happens to the Income Tax adjustment that I declare for my retirement year when the payout doesn't come for two more fiscal calendar (RevCan) years?

Do I have to keep reapplying hoping that it will eventually be payed out and I didn't miss the deadline?

If this was MP pensions, or severence, Parliment would be tied in knots and all other business in Canada would stop until it was fixed for them.

It would seem that both programs, administered by the CF, are just dog fuck time wasters, hoping everyone will just get frustrated and go away without getting their just payment.



> Tommy
> 
> I WENT into a public 'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
> The publican 'e up an' sez, ``We serve no red-coats here.''
> The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
> I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
> 
> O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' ``Tommy, go away'';
> But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
> The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
> O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.
> 
> I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
> They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
> They sent me to the gallery or round the music 'alls,
> But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
> 
> For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' ``Tommy, wait outside'';
> But it's ``Special train for Atkins'' when the trooper's on the tide,
> The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
> O it's ``Special train for Atkins'' when the trooper's on the tide.
> 
> Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
> Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
> An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
> Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
> 
> Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' ``Tommy how's yer soul?''
> But it's ``Thin red line of 'eroes'' when the drums begin to roll,
> The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
> O it's ``Thin red line of 'eroes'' when the drums begin to roll.
> 
> We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
> But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
> An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
> Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
> 
> While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an ``Tommy, fall be'ind,''
> But it's ``Please to walk in front, sir,'' when there's trouble in the wind,
> There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
> O it's ``Please to walk in front, sir,'' when there's trouble in the wind.
> 
> You talk o' better food for us, an'schools, an' fires an' all:
> We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
> Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
> The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
> 
> For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' ``Chuck him out, the brute!''
> But it's ``Saviour of 'is country,'' when the guns begin to shoot;
> Yes it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
> But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool--you bet that Tommy sees!
> 
> Rudyard Kipling


----------



## Stoker

recceguy said:
			
		

> I've heard that once you retire, it'll take 2-3 years to receive either one, if you're a Reservist. Severance or pension. So it doesn't matter if they are two different distinct issues and definitely not inter-linked, you're still not getting them in a timely fashion.



God forbid if you need your pension payments for mortgages and the like once you retire.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> God forbid if you need your pension payments for mortgages and the like once you retire.



That seems to hold no sway with Ottawa. Your predicament is yours. They answer to no one, nor are they beholden to you to give you what is your's in a timely and legal fashion.

Basically, it's "We'll get to you when we get to you and we don't care whether it's your entitled money or not. You are not the boss of us." 

I removed the expletive, but it had to do with sex and goats.


----------



## meni0n

When I retire, since I made pension payments on time, I would expect it to be the CF's responsibility to return the favor and make those pension payments on time. Is that too much to ask for?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I believe there was a CANFORGEN on having your pension delayed because of the PIL wasn't there?


----------



## jollyjacktar

Thanks for the Kipling recce.  It's sad to say and think that it will never not be relevant to the experiences of the  troops of yesterday, today or tomorrow.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

meni0n said:
			
		

> When I retire, since I made pension payments on time, I would expect it to be the CF's responsibility to return the favor and make those pension payments on time. Is that too much to ask for?



Bingo.

If they can watch it close enough to send me a notice when my payment is $5 short, they should be able to administer the payout with equal zeal.

George's comments are irrelevant to the discussion. This is something I paid into with a reasonable expectation to be treated fairly, timely and competently.

I would expect that if they had to pay the exorbitant compound interest that they charged us to buy back in, on _their_ late payment, they would soon get their shit together and start the cheque machine.

Standard caring seems to be "Tough shit. Live with it."


----------



## AliG

meni0n said:
			
		

> When I retire, since I made pension payments on time, I would expect it to be the CF's responsibility to return the favor and make those pension payments on time. Is that too much to ask for?



I retired in Sept from multiple Service periods (Reg -> class a/c -> Reg) and had no issues having the pension start as forecast. You are told when to expect initial payment which is normally paid out at the end of the following month for any given month, in this case the first month was Sept so the initial pension came in at the end of Oct. http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pen/pa-ap/pb-pp-eng.asp applies. The 4-8 week gap is a result of Forces pay being at the beginning of a pay period whilst the pension is the following month at the end of the period.

On the other hand I was told that it would be 12-15 weeks before I would see the severance pay. So far the only document sent was the calculation from OW which was erroneous and different than the same calculation done by the release office. I do not expect this to be resolved for a while yet.

Edited to better explain the time period


----------



## Occam

I'm pretty fuzzy on how the PiL verification process would/could affect when you might start receiving your CFSA annuity on release, but regardless...

Someone in this particular situation might want to point out the definition of "immediate annuity" in the CFSA:

“_immediate annuity_” means an annuity that becomes
payable to the contributor immediately
on his becoming entitled thereto"

Immediately, not 6, 12, or 24 months later when they get around to sorting this mess out.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I know they said they can't tell you the progress of your file but it would be nice to know they received your file.


----------



## MJP

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> I know they said they can't tell you the progress of your file but it would be nice to know they received your file.



All the documents being sent utilize another document called a 728.  Your OR will receive a copy of it back when the addressee gets what was sent.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Awesome sauce.  Thanks


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Just got a letter today from Archives.  They inform me that they may not be making the allotted time and it could take them 6 months.  Well I'm afraid I need to have the severance paper work in by Mar.  At least they were kind enough to direct me to the complaints department.


----------



## captloadie

Has there been any talk about a dispute process if a member does not agree with the information used by PIL team in Ottawa to calculate the years of service? Obviously, if a member plans on taking the full amount and it will take six months to get an answer from archives then one will have to take the risk of making the election, putting all as the years of eligible service, and hoping the PIL team gets it right.

Our orderly room has actually said not to put in ATI requests, as this will definitely hold up a members file. I see the logic in this, because the PIL team, who will also need to see the same file, will have to wait until the ATI office is done with it, all to find the same information.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I actually got a call from them today. She informed me they gotten find anything and will now see if they can track down my pay records. So I think it was a good idea to send in my info.


----------



## ARMY_101

captloadie said:
			
		

> Has there been any talk about a dispute process if a member does not agree with the information used by PIL team in Ottawa to calculate the years of service? Obviously, if a member plans on taking the full amount and it will take six months to get an answer from archives then one will have to take the risk of making the election, putting all as the years of eligible service, and hoping the PIL team gets it right.



See below:



> *16. What should a member do if they disagree with the estimate of their service?*
> 
> If the member does not agree with their estimate of years of eligible service, members should contact their Unit Orderly Room. Members may be asked to provide documentation supporting previous service. Questions concerning the estimate form should be directed to the member’s Unit Orderly Room. It is important to act promptly if there is a discrepancy, as the election period will not be extended for any reason.


----------



## dimsum

I asked that exact question a few months ago and the OUTCAN coord folks told me that due to the amount of incorrect records, they're reviewing the files and asking us to wait.  I'll find and repost the email when I'm in next.


----------



## captloadie

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> See below:


Great, you quote an FAQ that doesn't answer the question. Unit orderly rooms still only have access to the same sources of information that a member would through a ATI request. All files where greater than 50% or prior service is involved will be reviewed by the PIL team. They will make a determination based on their research. What is the redress for members that don't agree, or have proof that the years of eligible service used by the PIL team is incorrect?


----------



## ARMY_101

captloadie said:
			
		

> Great, you quote an FAQ that doesn't answer the question. Unit orderly rooms still only have access to the same sources of information that a member would through a ATI request. All files where greater than 50% or prior service is involved will be reviewed by the PIL team. They will make a determination based on their research. What is the redress for members that don't agree, or have proof that the years of eligible service used by the PIL team is incorrect?



The unit OR should be communicating directly with the PIL (DMCA 4) team, or the member could.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

I am still waiting for my election letter.... ???


----------



## dapaterson

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I am still waiting for my election letter.... ???



Go to your OR and inform them you haven't received it.  Do this sooner rather than later.

You have until 14 March to elect - if you decide to cash out and submit on 15 March, you'll get nothing until you release becasue you missed the deadline.  There will be no extensions, no "sorry, my dog ate it".


----------



## Nfld Sapper

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Go to your OR and inform them you haven't received it.  Do this sooner rather than later.
> 
> You have until 14 March to elect - if you decide to cash out and submit on 15 March, you'll get nothing until you release becasue you missed the deadline.  There will be no extensions, no "sorry, my dog ate it".



Evidently the election letter is local produced via them...


----------



## dapaterson

You should have received a letter stating "Nfld Sapper has 14 years 24 days of CF service for the purposes of CFSP".  Those were produced centrally and mailed to the mailing address you have in the pay system.

If you didn't get one, then your OR can produce the same information locally.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Yeah I got that one... thought they would send us something like what they did for the Pension Plan wrt the election process......


----------



## ARMY_101

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Yeah I got that one... thought they would send us something like what they did for the Pension Plan wrt the election process......



The form that says you have xx years xx days should have been mailed to you, and can also be reproduced locally.

The blank election forms themselves (i.e. "I want ALL my years of severance pay...") can be downloaded from the DIN, or the OR should have blank copies at the front desk.


----------



## GnyHwy

Here you go. https://www.cfpsa.com/en/AboutUs/SISIPFS/Documents/CFSP_Election%20Form.pdf


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Forms submitted, looks like I'll be get $21,000 with a $8000 deposit to the gov't for taxes.


----------



## DAA

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Forms submitted, looks like I'll be get $21,000 with a $8000 deposit to the gov't for taxes.



I'd be applying for the Tax Waiver from CRA, if you can.  If you don't have the letter or haven't yet applied and you have already "elected PIL", you can still submit the request to CRA and have a copy attached to your PIL Election Form pending receipt of the letter.  In which case, your PIL will not be paid out until you receive the letter and provide that to your BOR.


----------



## captloadie

The waiver is only used if the member is rolling the funds over to an RRSP. Members taking the cash to put against other than an RRSP need to have the taxes withheld at source. At least, that what the legal thing to do is.


----------



## Halifax Tar

The city council of Saint John, N.B., heard some blunt language in November 2012. Faced with a pension plan that was underfunded to the tune of at least $195 million, one pension consultant told council the city had "the worst pension plan I’ve ever seen."

Shared-risk pension plans are largely an unknown quantity in Canada. But Rowland knows all about them. She had just chaired a pension task force in New Brunswick that had recommended the adoption of the shared-risk model in the province. Enabling legislation was subsequently passed and the shared-risk pension plan became a reality last July.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/02/21/f-shared-risk-pension-plan.html

__________________________

Interesting article on NB new pension administration.  I wonder if this would gain traction with the federal pension plans and ours as well.  I will have to read more on this method before I cry that the sky is falling.


----------



## BinRat55

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Again, if you've only ever served in the Reg F and take half or less as PIL your clerk will enter it into CCPS and you'll be paid on the next payrun (or possibly the one after).  For a large number of CF Reg F members the process will be relatively simple and painless.



I'm now being told June!! Next payrun my ass...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Better then the 3 years I'll wait so um...suck it up.


----------



## BinRat55

That's June for the 49.9% - and I shouldn't have to suck ANYTHING up... I was commenting on the accuracy of information I personally received some months ago. Please watch your tone.


----------



## PuckChaser

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> That's June for the 49.9% - and I shouldn't have to suck ANYTHING up... I was commenting on the accuracy of information I personally received some months ago. Please watch your tone.



Well since you personally received that information, it must be good as gold, right? By your profile, you seem to have a lot of experience in the CF. So maybe you could use that experience to deduce that anytime you get this money before you actually retire, is in fact, receiving it early and count your blessings on that account? This isn't some extra windfall you're getting, its something you're supposed to get when you retire/release.


----------



## ARMY_101

Anyone who was told June 2013 was mistaken.  The first disbursement is in April 2013, the next in July, the next in October, and so on.  If your unit's OR was organized and on the ball (and you didn't wait until March 12th at 10:30pm to elect), you should have your money in April.


----------



## captloadie

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> That's June for the 49.9% - and I shouldn't have to suck ANYTHING up... I was commenting on the accuracy of information I personally received some months ago. Please watch your tone.


I was told several months ago there would be CADPAT pants in my size coming soon . . . still waiting.  As well as of course we'll have all the paperwork for that order completed in time for end year purchases . . . wrong again.

The point is that anything on this scale is going to take time and run into delays.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Well since you personally received that information, it must be good as gold, right? By your profile, you seem to have a lot of experience in the CF. So maybe you could use that experience to deduce that anytime you get this money before you actually retire, is in fact, receiving it early and count your blessings on that account? This isn't some extra windfall you're getting, its something you're supposed to get when you retire/release.



Getting it early....did you miss a few CANFORGENs??  The RCMP got theirs, from the same government/TB decision on severance...before Christmas!  How are we 'blessed'?

 :


----------



## PuckChaser

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Getting it early....did you miss a few CANFORGENs??  The RCMP got theirs, from the same government/TB decision on severance...before Christmas!  How are we 'blessed'?
> 
> :



Because if the government didn't terminate severance, we'd all be waiting until retirement? Glass half full or half empty, its a personal choice.


----------



## jollyjacktar

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Because if the government didn't terminate severance, we'd all be waiting until retirement? Glass half full or half empty, its a personal choice.


But if they'd not terminated severance, we'd still be getting that glass added to regardless.  Maybe it's full of piss...


----------



## PPCLI Guy

I'm willing to bet that 80% of the CF didn't even know we are entitled to a severance package before the whole PiL thing started.

We need to get over ourselves.


----------



## Infanteer

Put me in that catagory.  I thought "sweet!  I can pay the trailer off now!"


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Put me in that catagory.  I thought "sweet!  I can pay the trailer off now!"


Get out of my head.  Although, there's plenty of room in here for activities.


----------



## vonGarvin

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I'm willing to bet that 80% of the CF didn't even know we are entitled to a severance package before the whole PiL thing started.
> 
> We need to get over ourselves.


I couldn't even spell severance, let alone know that I was going to get one.  

I'm with Infanteer, but mine is going to pay down my mortgage a few grand


----------



## DAA

CCPS ADVISORY - E01513

IAW CANFORGEN 062-12, the Pay increase announced for 1 Apr 13 has been actioned in CCPS.  This also includes increases to "pay-driven" benefits.

The increase will be reflected on the mid-April DFT.


----------



## PMedMoe

DAA said:
			
		

> CCPS ADVISORY - E01513
> 
> IAW CANFORGEN 062-12, the Pay increase announced for 1 Apr 13 has been actioned in CCPS.  This also includes increases to "pay-driven" benefits.
> 
> The increase will be reflected on the mid-April DFT.



Let me guess.....1.5%?


----------



## DAA

DAA said:
			
		

> CCPS ADVISORY - E01513
> 
> IAW CANFORGEN 062-12, the Pay increase announced for 1 Apr 13 has been actioned in CCPS.  This also includes increases to "pay-driven" benefits.
> 
> The increase will be reflected on the mid-April DFT.



NCMs, GSO, Pilots in the rank of LCol and below and Medical and Dental Offrs, a total of 2.0 %  (1.5 annual economic adjustment plus another 0.5 for the ceassation of Severance Pay and RFRG)


----------



## ARMY_101

PIL election memos are beginning to be returned as approved for those who had their acts together. Authorization has started to go to Pay Offices.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

That's good news.  Mine needs the full look over.  Is it still only being staffed by 2 pers?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

The PIL Team composition is on the CMP site Org in the DIN and it was a lot more than 2 ppl.  IIRC it was 20ish.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Thanks.  That is good news.


----------



## vonGarvin

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> PIL election memos are beginning to be returned as approved for those who had their acts together. Authorization has started to go to Pay Offices.


Is this only going to be for those who took the 50%, or for all who have submitted?  (e.g., me, who put in for the whole thing)


Thank you.


----------



## DAA

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Is this only going to be for those who took the 50%, or for all who have submitted?  (e.g., me, who put in for the whole thing)



This applies ONLY to those who requested 50% or less and those who requested more than 50% where the "verification/audit" has been certified and returned back your local Pay Office.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Or Reserve time.


----------



## DAA

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Or Reserve time.



Don't know on that one.  Anytime I have ever asked a question regarding Compensation and Benefits as they pertain to Reserve Force members, I always get the same two answers....."what are you trying to do" and "that's not the way it's done".  Naturally, I follow up with "Can you provide me with a reference, regulation, order or something tangible that substantiates your response" which always results in dead air............


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Ahh seen.  I think I was told when I did the application about the reserve thing.  Ahh well doesn't matter I took out the full amount regardless.


----------



## jollyjacktar

It only matters with the Reserve thing if your time is unbroken between the Reserves and Regs.  My Militia time and Reg time has about a 4 year break in between.  I thought that it counted, but the RMS clerks confirmed that it's straight time only.  I was going to take about 75% but changed it to under 50% when I found the break made a difference which is a shame as it would have added another 5 years into the mix.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Mine was unbroken.


----------



## vonGarvin

My time is also unbroken. I didn't even think that was eligible.  Almost five full years' service, that's a bit of change..


----------



## jollyjacktar

Technoviking said:
			
		

> My time is also unbroken. I didn't even think that was eligible.  Almost five full years' service, that's a bit of change..


I was hoping that I might have been able to get the Militia time, however, it would have cost me the wait time.  This way, I don't have to wait.  Ah what the hell, they'd just take more tax off of me.  Seeing as they're cutting here, there and everywhere nowadays I really should count myself lucky that I'm getting this to begin with.  28+ years would have been better though for sure.  C'est la vie.


----------



## AirDet

Now that we're in the second week of April, has anyone seen their PIL in the bank?


----------



## ARMY_101

AirDet said:
			
		

> Now that we're in the second week of April, has anyone seen their PIL in the bank?



The memos have only just started to come back from the PIL team as being approved. Once approved, it's sent to RPPO for payment. Not sure if it will be lumped in with a pay run or its own special deposit.


----------



## acen

I have been told by someone who works in the PIL nerve centre that it will take up to 2 month from the time they approve a file to it being paid out, after April 1st. Hang tight, it is still coming, it might just be a little bit longer than you thought it was going to take.


----------



## George Wallace

AirDet said:
			
		

> Now that we're in the second week of April, has anyone seen their PIL in the bank?



With the shear volume of work here, there are priorities as to whose files get done first and whose will wait.  If you are currently in the RELEASE process, you would be a higher priority than someone who was being retained for the long term.  As was stated in previous posts......Patience.


----------



## AirDet

Thanx for the reply George, I was just curious. I have my guys asking me at every briefing. It doesn't matter how often you tell them to be patient. I'm guessing several of them are getting the same question from their wives.

Several of them put in their election on the first day back in December and were thinking they'd be at the top of the pile when payments begin.


----------



## ARMY_101

> 38. When will payments be processed?
> 
> PiL of CFSP will be processed on an ongoing basis commencing 1 Apr 2013 and once all information is validated and/or any necessary audits are performed. Each member’s situation will be different. CF members who are considering making an election for a PiL of CFSP should anticipate the possibility of lengthy processing times given anticipated volumes.



AND



> 35. Once election forms have been submitted, will Sitreps be provided?
> 
> No. In order to meet processing requirements, status reports cannot be provided to members regarding their files.


----------



## AirDet

Army 101, we've quoted the CanForGen as well. What's got them is that this process has no external transparency. Once members handed in their election forms to the Unit ORs they have heard nothing. Let's face it, some ORs have had a history of losing documents.

Personally, I'm tired of answering the questions at every briefing. Perhaps if there were a process to monitor progress our members wouldn't be so antsy.

Then again, it's too late for that.


----------



## technophile

I find it frustrating that when we were first briefed on the PIL in November, those with unbroken regular force service who elect 50% payment or less were told that that payments would be almost immediate as they were to be completed locally. Myself, and a few others submitted the paperwork on dec 15th as directed to initiate this " speedy payment"

Then, it was " not before April 1st"  Which was fine.  Now, its a " you will get it, when you get it. And we will no longer entertain any questions"

To those that argue its a " gift " that was not there a couple years ago, I say its still our entitlement.  Yes entitlement.  If anyone owed the crown money, you can bed your trousers that "administrative magic" would be initiated post haste.  The RCMP and civil servants were paid out already, regardless of the " complexity" of individual situations. 

Be patient eh ?  Its money that is better used in my pocket than in " la la land "


----------



## Fishbone Jones

This fiasco appears to be a product of the same wizards that brought us the Reserve Pension :


----------



## MARS

Take the accuracy of the following statement as you will, but the Chief Clerk at halifax dkyd CSOR told me the other day that it might, possibly, take up to three years!

I was advised to reapply for another request to withhold taxes at the source for next tax season if I don't receive it this year...


----------



## technophile

MARS said:
			
		

> Take the accuracy of the following statement as you will, but the Chief Clerk at halifax dkyd CSOR told me the other day that it might, possibly, take up to three years!
> 
> I was advised to reapply for another request to withhold taxes at the source for next tax season if I don't receive it this year...



Is yours a > or < 50%  ?  I think most who elected greater than  50% are expecting a lengthy delay ( 1 -2 years) .


----------



## dapaterson

It's the 50%+ and anyone with Reserve service that undergo 100% verification.


----------



## DAA

MARS said:
			
		

> Take the accuracy of the following statement as you will, but the Chief Clerk at halifax dkyd CSOR told me the other day that it might, possibly, take up to three years!
> 
> I was advised to reapply for another request to withhold taxes at the source for next tax season if I don't receive it this year...



Now that would be pure speculation on the Chief Clerks part.  You will NOT see any payments processed any earlier than mid-Apr pay and even that is conditional upon your OR receiving authorization and then inputting the transaction into CCPS for payment and that is for those who requested less than 50% as mentioned by dapatterson.  50% and up requires full verification.

If you have already requested and received the letter from CRA to "withold tax at source", it will be for Calendar Year 2013.  If you do not receive your PIL prior to 31 Dec 13, then all you need to do, is resubmit your letter of request back to CRA and obtain an updated 2014 letter.  CRA will not issue "multi-year" letters.


----------



## acen

technophile said:
			
		

> I find it frustrating that when we were first briefed on the PIL in November, those with unbroken regular force service who elect 50% payment or less were told that that payments would be almost immediate as they were to be completed locally. Myself, and a few others submitted the paperwork on dec 15th as directed to initiate this " speedy payment"
> 
> Then, it was " not before April 1st"  Which was fine.  Now, its a " you will get it, when you get it. And we will no longer entertain any questions"
> 
> To those that argue its a " gift " that was not there a couple years ago, I say its still our entitlement.  Yes entitlement.  If anyone owed the crown money, you can bed your trousers that "administrative magic" would be initiated post haste.  The RCMP and civil servants were paid out already, regardless of the " complexity" of individual situations.
> 
> Be patient eh ?  Its money that is better used in my pocket than in " la la land "



CRA themselves haven't received a dime yet nor have they even started the process for themselves, so the CF is far from unique. Don't spend the money you don't have in your bank account and this becomes a moot point. Treat it for what it is, unexpected money. I encountered way too many people that had put themselves in financial hardship because they had spent the 4k that they were "entitled" to in a public service pay adjustment in 2009(?), only to find out it was less than 2k after tax. They spent it all on lavish trips and some of them are probably still paying it off on their credit cards and their 19% interest rates. It's either wait a year or so or wait until retirement, besides, rates of returns on investments are junk right now.


----------



## AirDet

I can certainly see why people are already getting frustrated. We were told that the applications would be processed as they were received. That began in December. I know it's only the second week that the payment page has been turned on but was there not a stack of authorizations waiting to go? After all, they've had 4 months already to work on this. 
People are wondering why the process takes so long when the ORs have already compiled the relevant documents. Is the process so overly complicated that a fin clerk can only complete a couple a day (or less)?

Lets do some math:
- approx 20 pay clerks in the cell
- 4 months of work (20days*4months) = 80 days
- 1600 man days (80*20) or 12800 man/hrs
- approx 75,000 CF Mbrs
- Suppose half applied = 37500
That means that so far .341 hrs should have been invested per member (on average).

Are you telling me it takes more than 20 minutes per mbr to do a review when the Local ORs have already assembled the files?

Granted these numbers make several assumptions but they can't be that far out.


----------



## technophile

acen said:
			
		

> CRA themselves haven't received a dime yet nor have they even started the process for themselves, so the CF is far from unique. Don't spend the money you don't have in your bank account and this becomes a moot point. Treat it for what it is, unexpected money. I encountered way too many people that had put themselves in financial hardship because they had spent the 4k that they were "entitled" to in a public service pay adjustment in 2009(?), only to find out it was less than 2k after tax. They spent it all on lavish trips and some of them are probably still paying it off on their credit cards and their 19% interest rates. It's either wait a year or so or wait until retirement, besides, rates of returns on investments are junk right now.



Treat as unexpected ? Correct me if I am wrong here, but the Canforgen was released a year ago . So, i guess i can argue it is now expected.
Also thanks for the lecture on my finances, but I dont need it. My PIL entitlement is not yet " money spent" but it would give me more of a " warm and fuzzy" in my account than the Crown's.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Whether or not the financial advice was directed to you or not it is sound advice and someone else reading this thread may benefit from it. We will get the money when we get. No more bitching will speed things up. My suggestion would be to close this thread down for awhile as there is nothing more relevant said.


----------



## acen

I completely understand that angle, but the CF is far from the only entity that has not received their money. I don't know or particularly care about how you manage your own finances, that's your business, I'm just posting what I have seen in the past. All cheques had to be individually approved by the HR advisor responsible for that person's file in that case where I worked, which caused a lot of frustration as employee A had received their cheque but not employee B. The money will come, but they are only 10 days (7 working days) into the possible payment window.


----------



## brihard

Sorry, but it fits...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9EBhaULToU


----------



## AirDet

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> No more bitching will speed things up. My suggestion would be to close this thread down for awhile as there is nothing more relevant said.



WOW! Is that the way we're expected to treat our people now? 

If you don't like the questions just shut them off.... it's attitudes like that from the Admin staff that has our Jr NCOs so upset. As a Sr NCO I have to bring some resolution to things. This is what leaders do. We support our people to meet the needs of the CF.

Ignoring points because you don't want to deal with them isn't exactly in keeping with our proud military customs.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Look clown. You'll get your fracking money when the info is processed. You know the process. Like EVERYTHING else in the military hurry up and wait. There will be no clear cut answers because they already stated there will not be a status update. Bitch all you want. You'll get it when you get. Now move the fuck along.


----------



## George Wallace

AirDet said:
			
		

> WOW! Is that the way we're expected to treat our people now?
> 
> If you don't like the questions just shut them off.... it's attitudes like that from the Admin staff that has our Jr NCOs so upset. As a Sr NCO I have to bring some resolution to things. This is what leaders do. We support our people to meet the needs of the CF.
> 
> Ignoring points because you don't want to deal with them isn't exactly in keeping with our proud military customs.



When you registered today, did you do your due diligence as a Snr NCO and read the required joining instructions?  Did you notice that this is not an "Official DND or CAF" site?  Do you think that unofficial statements posted here will hold any authority in your workplace?  I might also point out that many of the members of this site may/often do outrank you, so tone down your sense of entitlement/authority/superiority.


----------



## brihard

AirDet said:
			
		

> WOW! Is that the way we're expected to treat our people now?
> 
> If you don't like the questions just shut them off.... it's attitudes like that from the Admin staff that has our Jr NCOs so upset. As a Sr NCO I have to bring some resolution to things. This is what leaders do. We support our people to meet the needs of the CF.
> 
> Ignoring points because you don't want to deal with them isn't exactly in keeping with our proud military customs.



I'm a senior NCO too. From the outset I've only ever been told by higher to expect these payouts to potentially take a considerable amount of time, and that's what I communicated to my troops.

There is a finite number of people processing these files, and a great many to process. And this is only one of myriad administrative demands the CF faces that require adequate staffing from an inadequate pool of personnel.

Speaking as an admin here for a second, I see no need to lock this thread. Other admins may disagree. I think it serves more value as a source of accurate information, and once in a while as a forum for one person to say to another 'give your head a shake'.


----------



## Jungle

AirDet said:
			
		

> As a Sr NCO I have to bring some resolution to things. This is what leaders do. We support our people to meet the needs of the CF.



I can see your Troops being frustrated if you told them about the assumptions you made above:



> Lets do some math:
> - approx 20 pay clerks in the cell
> - 4 months of work (20days*4months) = 80 days
> - 1600 man days (80*20) or 12800 man/hrs
> - approx 75,000 CF Mbrs
> - Suppose half applied = 37500
> That means that so far .341 hrs should have been invested per member (on average).
> 
> Are you telling me it takes more than 20 minutes per mbr to do a review when the Local ORs have already assembled the files?



_"Yeah, the sarge said it only takes 20 minutes per file... WTF are these clerks doing with my money over there ??"_

Lead by example; be patient, and explain to them that they should be too.


----------



## George Wallace

Just back to this one:



			
				AirDet said:
			
		

> Several of them put in their election on the first day back in December and were thinking they'd be at the top of the pile when payments begin.



Many have done that prior to Christmas, and had to redo them in the New Year, so that top of the pile is quite large; probably in the number of 60K.   

I have been lucky to have a couple of very knowledgeable RMS Clerks brief us as to how, when, etc. the process will be carried out and how priorities are set depending on the members circumstances.  Suffice it to say, anyone anticipating their PIL payout to be in close proximity to 1 Apr 2013, should go and buy a Loto ticket as well.  Their dreams are unrealistic at most.


----------



## AirDet

You guys really miss the point of forums. They are for discussion. I love your assumptions that I told my guys the math above. If you think they haven't run the numbers themselves then you've truly underestimated the intelligence of those coming in to the service these days.

My comments above were only my opinion as a Canadian citizen. What I say while in uniform is always supported and IAW policy.

Perhaps if the Admin branch understood the pressure (spousal or otherwise) our members are feeling they wouldn't be so callous. Perhaps if they explained how many steps each file must go thru...

I can tell you that one of the best leaders our service has had in the last few years was Rear Admiral Buck. He wasn't popular with the admin branch because he demanded they treat CF mbrs as people.


----------



## George Wallace

If you haven't told them the math, perhaps you should.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

recceguy said:
			
		

> This fiasco appears to be a product of the same wizards that brought us the Reserve Pension :


I can definitely relate to this statement.

Right from the start I put myself in the boat that it would take a long time and to not even have it in my mind to expect this money until 2014 and beyond, this way if it does somehow come earlier it's a nice surprise.

The sad reality is that even after all of the briefings and discussions that were given to the clerks and then passed onto us information was still incorrect.  It's to be expected though due to the very large nature of this entire undertaking.  Example: Member has 10 years service but a 5 day break at roughly the 5 year mark because of a transfer from the RegF to the PRes and the dates didn't match up side by side.  We were told that the member would still get the full 10 years for their PIL because only the few days in between would not be counted.  Unfortunately this turned out to be wrong and all service prior to that break is now lost because the exemption for a break in service (ED&T etc.) did not apply.  Still looking into this, but the end result is that everyone needs to be patient and understand the significant workload there could be in processing and understanding all pieces of the jigsaw puzzle.


----------



## brihard

AirDet said:
			
		

> You guys really miss the point of forums. They are for discussion. I love your assumptions that I told my guys the math above. If you think they haven't run the numbers themselves then you've truly underestimated the intelligence of those coming in to the service these days.
> 
> My comments above were only my opinion as a CF member. What I say while in uniform is always supported and IAW policy.
> 
> Perhaps if the Admin branch understood the pressure (spousal or otherwise) our members are feeling they wouldn't be so callous. Perhaps if they explained how many steps each file must go thru...
> 
> I can tell you that one of the best leaders our service has had in the last few years was Rear Admiral Buck. He wasn't popular with the admin branch because he demanded they treat CF mbrs as people.



So it does not suffice to tell them 'because of how the system works, it may take a year or two to get this'? And our troops aren't big boys and girls who can tell their spouse 'we'll see this money when we see it, and not until then'? When a shortage of clerks is causing the CF to hire infantry reservists on Class B to process pay in lieu of severance, perhaps it's inappropriate to dump blame on the 'admin branch'. 

I assure you I'm well aware of the intelligence of our troops, and I sure as hell get the point of a forum. _Not_ among the points of a forum is to have a place where you can dump your thoughts and not have them challenged if other equally informed members think you're missing something.


----------



## AirDet

You know George, I think that's all people want to know... those steps you spoke of. People know it won't happen over night. They're just trying to understand the process. I guarantee 90% of the frustration would vanish if someone explained the whole process to them. If payments take 2 months or 2 years most people would be ok with it as long as they understand why.

That in a nutshell is all I'm trying to say. The suggestion by one of the posters that they're tired of reading this post so it should be shut down shows complete disregard for our people.


----------



## AirDet

Brihard said:
			
		

> _Not_ among the points of a forum is to have a place where you can dump your thoughts and not have them challenged if other equally informed members think you're missing something.



Agreed. But it does go both ways.


----------



## stokerwes

I think pers with straight time be put in priority files to be processed first. Then pers that have a little more complicated situation will be looked after a little more quickly, and by quickly I don't mean two months from now.
I think the biggest dissatisfier about this whole evolution is that they had already sent out the time served (like a convict  ) calculations. If people had issues they could bring them to the BOR and get it sorted out. But if someone, for example, has served 24.36 years consecutively as it states on the calculation that was sent out I really don't see the need to reevaluate that yet again if it is already complete. I am not sure why or where this three year time frame has come about. It may be the fact for a few complicated situations, and yes the reserves are going to be a majority of that group, but the majority of RegF and Class B/C members that have unbroken time are a straightforward calculation.
Years ago my pay was audited. The first audit came out I owed something like $75.00 I asked to have it checked again. The second audit ended up the CF owing me around $700.00, so a third audit was done because of the large discrepancy and the third audit showed I was owed $1200.00. Then my file was yet again audited by a "Tiger Team" and they discovered I owed the CF $75.00. I paid and it was done with. The point I am trying to make is that the original audit was the same as the fourth audit the only difference was that it took three more times to get there. I find the CF likes to overcomplicate things when it comes to pay. 
If the initial time calculation is/was correct it should be a simple matter of placing the time served into the formula along with your monthly pay rate on the cut off day and a review by senior staff and then your money should show up in the bank.
Last I have heard is that just a bit more than 30% of CF members elected for PIL. As most either had too little time in for it to be any great amount, or they were getting close to retirement and knew they would be getting it soon regardless if they applied for PIL or not.


----------



## George Wallace

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> I can definitely relate to this statement.
> 
> Right from the start I put myself in the boat that it would take a long time and to not even have it in my mind to expect this money until 2014 and beyond, this way if it does somehow come earlier it's a nice surprise.
> 
> The sad reality is that even after all of the briefings and discussions that were given to the clerks and then passed onto us information was still incorrect.  It's to be expected though due to the very large nature of this entire undertaking.  Example: Member has 10 years service but a 5 day break at roughly the 5 year mark because of a transfer from the RegF to the PRes and the dates didn't match up side by side.  We were told that the member would still get the full 10 years for their PIL because only the few days in between would not be counted.  Unfortunately this turned out to be wrong and all service prior to that break is now lost because the exemption for a break in service (ED&T etc.) did not apply.  Still looking into this, but the end result is that everyone needs to be patient and understand the significant workload there could be in processing and understanding all pieces of the jigsaw puzzle.



So?  Imagine my surprise to find out that I am only entitled to 2 out of the 8 years as a Reservist, because I already have a pension for 28 years service as a Reg.  30 years is the max number that anyone is entitled to.......And yes, recceguy is probably correct in his deductions of whom is responsible.


----------



## dapaterson

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So?  Imagine my surprise to find out that I am only entitled to 2 out of the 8 years as a Reservist, because I already have a pension for 28 years service as a Reg.  30 years is the max number that anyone is entitled to.......And yes, recceguy is probably correct in his deductions of whom is responsible.



Incorrect.  Your 28 year pension is irrelevant.  Your 28 years of previously-paid severance, on the other hand...


----------



## jollyjacktar

For those of us who are taking 50% our PIL has been processed at the unit and it will be in the bank at the end of this month.


----------



## Halifax Tar

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Incorrect.  Your 28 year pension is irrelevant.  Your 28 years of previously-paid severance, on the other hand...



He would have received his severance for his 28 years of previously-paid severance upon release from the Reg Force, no ?


----------



## AirDet

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> For those of us who are taking 50% our PIL has been processed at the unit and it will be in the bank at the end of this month.



That's exactly the sort of thing our people would love to her from the CofC. People just want to know that the system is moving forward.


----------



## dapaterson

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> He would have received his severance for his 28 years of previously-paid severance upon release from the Reg Force, no ?



Yes - I'm just pointing out that it's not the 28-year pension that disqualifies him, it's the prior receipt of severance for those 28 years.


Pedantic, but precision is important.


----------



## DAA

AirDet said:
			
		

> That's exactly the sort of thing our people would love to her from the CofC. People just want to know that the system is moving forward.



Well not really love to hear.  It only leads to the banter of "Why did they get their's and we haven't got ours?"  Which I am sure will be the next round of complaints.

Things could be much much worse!  They could have just said "Severance entitlements are frozen.  But don't worry, your accumulated time will be paid out when you retire."


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So?  Imagine my surprise to find out that I am only entitled to 2 out of the 8 years as a Reservist, because I already have a pension for 28 years service as a Reg.  30 years is the max number that anyone is entitled to.......And yes, recceguy is probably correct in his deductions of whom is responsible.


Don't understand the "So?" part of your post. You received a severance for your 28 years and are getting an additional 2 years, you haven't really lost anything (although Im sure you disagree because of the 6 years over the 30 year cap). In my example those 5 years are totally lost money that should be included in the calculation.


----------



## DAA

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Don't understand the "So?" part of your post. You received a severance for your 28 years and are getting an additional 2 years, you haven't really lost anything (although Im sure you disagree because of the 6 years over the 30 year cap). In my example those 5 years are totally lost money that should be included in the calculation.



I can "one up you" on that one.  I asked that specific question, broken service, service that involved component transfers, etc.  My interpretation of it was that it wouldn't be counted but was told it would all be counted,

And that was from someone "well" up the food chain and in a position to determine that.

Can you say "blind leading the blind".....    :facepalm:


----------



## ARMY_101

AirDet said:
			
		

> That's exactly the sort of thing our people would love to her from the CofC. People just want to know that the system is moving forward.



The system is moving forward. I've posted regular updates from the PIL team as they've become available...


----------



## brihard

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> The system is moving forward. I've posted regular updates from the PIL team as they've become available...



Yup, but you're not the CoC, and most troops don't spend time here.

Believe me, your updates are appreciated, even if most of us probably don't think to say thanks for the info. But at the same time, this information should all be coming clearly, forthrightly, and through proper channels so that all the troops are receiving the same messaging. 

There will be MANY troops who have random issues delaying their payout beyond simply being in the queue. However I'd contend that exceptionally few of those issues will be of such a nature that there oughtn't be *policy* uncertainties at play that would preclude quick, accurate answers to 'will this or that service count?'

Me, I'm all for 'shut up, leave them alone, let them process applications', however I accept that I'm probably in the patient minority...


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Sooooooooooo, I heard if you wait to take it all, with or without a tax deferral, upon retirement, it is guaranteed to be in your hand within six weeks.

That's the rumour I want clarification on.


----------



## DAA

recceguy said:
			
		

> Sooooooooooo, I heard if you wait to take it all, with or without a tax deferral, upon retirement, it is guaranteed to be in your hand within six weeks.
> 
> That's the rumour I want clarification on.



Is it possible to receive it that quickly?  Yes.  Would it actually happen that quickly?  Probably not.   The timeline for payout on retirement is dependant upon how many files the Release Section in Ottawa (DMCA) is working on at any given time.  They usually try and shoot for 8-12 weeks which I believe is their "optimal" target but I have seen it go as long as 6 months or more in some instances.


----------



## pross182

recceguy said:
			
		

> Sooooooooooo, I heard if you wait to take it all, with or without a tax deferral, upon retirement, it is guaranteed to be in your hand within six weeks.
> 
> That's the rumour I want clarification on.



If you elect not to take the PIL then the payment you receive at release is severance and follows the same procedure as a normal severance payout. It doesn't go to the PIL team in Ottawa.


----------



## pross182

DAA said:
			
		

> I can "one up you" on that one.  I asked that specific question, broken service, service that involved component transfers, etc.  My interpretation of it was that it wouldn't be counted but was told it would all be counted,
> 
> And that was from someone "well" up the food chain and in a position to determine that.
> 
> Can you say "blind leading the blind".....    :facepalm:




http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/sg-ig/sg-ig/pi-as-eng.asp

Points 6,7,8

Also processsing timelines can be found http://admfincs.mil.ca/rppo-brpl/intro_e.asp?sel=rppo-brpl But it's an intranet site. 

I don't know about your ORs but ours attached a printout of the Q&A irt PIL to our election forms so everyone has a reference.


----------



## George Wallace

pross182 said:
			
		

> If you elect not to take the PIL then the payment you receive at release is severance and follows the same procedure as a normal severance payout. It doesn't go to the PIL team in Ottawa.



And your source for this info is?

There is no Severance.  You have three choices for you PIL; one of which is to collect it on RELEASE.


----------



## dapaterson

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And your source for this info is?
> 
> There is no Severance.  You have three choices for you PIL; one of which is to collect it on RELEASE.



No, PiL stands for "Payment in lieu of severance".  If taken at release, it's severance, not PiL.  Still gets audited, though.

It is an important distinction: there are certain tax provisions for severance payments that do not apply to a payment in lieu.  For me, the key consideration is that for severance an individual may transfer up to $2000 per year or partial worked in 1995 or before into RRSPs, above and beyond the RRSP contribution limit.  

Thus, by taking a portion as severance, I will be able to defer taxes on that amount, and likely draw it our slowly, over time, once my income has been reduced, so my marginal tax rate will be less, and any growth will be shielded from tax until withdrawn.  Taking it immediately would have had it taxed at my marginal rate, and I really wasn't in the mood to see 40%+ disappear.


----------



## George Wallace

Thanks for the clarification.....Wish that this whole matter was clearly presented to us so we wouldn't be doing all this now....If I wanted to be an accountant, I wouldn't have joined.


----------



## AirDet

There we go. That's exactly what I hoping for. People are talking about what's really on their minds.

Thank-you George, DAA, Brihard, Army101, etc.

As George so aptly put it, "Wish that this whole matter was clearly presented to us so we wouldn't be doing all this now....If I wanted to be an accountant, I wouldn't have joined."

There's little doubt in my mind that there are still tonnes of questions out there.


----------



## DAA

AirDet said:
			
		

> As George so aptly put it, "Wish that this whole matter was clearly presented to us so we wouldn't be doing all this now....If I wanted to be an accountant, I wouldn't have joined."
> 
> There's little doubt in my mind that there are still tonnes of questions out there.



Now if we actually presented something to you in a clear and understandable fashion, how the heck are we going to impress the senior management and get "Mastered" PERs when we have to step in to help you?


----------



## jollyjacktar

I, and the rest of the 50%ers here on board will be seeing the money on the end month pay.  And holy crap did they ever take a arm and a leg for tax etc.  The good news is that it maxes out the CPP & EI contributions now instead of the fall so I'll see a bit more money each pay in that respect.


----------



## AirDet

DAA, you're a man with purpose.  :nod:

I might just take a page from your play book.


----------



## kratz

AirDet said:
			
		

> DAA, you're a man with purpose.  :nod:
> 
> I might just take a page from your play book.



Here I thought Montgomery Scott popularized DAA's suggested method.  ;D


----------



## winks2872

I dont know if it's of any value to anyone but last week in the NCR we received an email stating that only 3148 PIL applications were received in the NCR out of a possible 15,000. That number is much lower than I think anyone was expecting. I'm thinking the payments will happen much faster than expected, that being said i'm not expecting it in any time frame and will be pleasantly suprised one payday


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Why a max of 15,000 and what is NCR?


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Why a max of 15,000 and what is NCR?


NCR = National Capital Region


----------



## winks2872

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Why a max of 15,000 and what is NCR?



I should have expanded on that. there are apx 15,000 pers posted within the National Capital Region, only 3148 PIL applications were received from those pers. The remainder having not made an election will receive payout as severance at retirement / release.


----------



## Monsoon

winks2872 said:
			
		

> I should have expanded on that. there are apx 15,000 pers posted within the National Capital Region, only 3148 PIL applications were received from those pers. The remainder having not made an election will receive payout as severance at retirement / release.


To answer the question of "why", I have a hunch that if you drilled down into the numbers you'd find that a lot of people posted to the NCR are relatively close to retirement, say perhaps within 10 years, and being late-career officers and senior NCOs would have already maxed out their RRSP contributions. In that case, it would make sense for them to wait to take the payment as non-taxable severance at retirement.

But you're right that PiL uptake has been less than expected: I heard the number for reservists nationally was sub-50% as of the week before deadline.


----------



## pross182

winks2872 said:
			
		

> I dont know if it's of any value to anyone but last week in the NCR we received an email stating that only 3148 PIL applications were received in the NCR out of a possible 15,000. That number is much lower than I think anyone was expecting. I'm thinking the payments will happen much faster than expected, that being said i'm not expecting it in any time frame and will be pleasantly suprised one payday



If NCR is treating this in any way like our regimental orderly room, they're taking their time with it to ensure everything is in order so they don't get sent back. Our PIL folders are complied by the Sqn Clks, forwarded to a MCpl and Sgt who both vet them before having them photocopied and mailed off. Under 1/3 of ours have been sent out.


----------



## Jungle

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> In that case, it would make sense for them to wait to take the payment as non-taxable severance at retirement.



Non taxable ?? Did I miss something ?



> there are apx 15,000 pers posted within the National Capital Region



Do they include Petawawa in the NCR ?  8)


----------



## AmmoTech90

If you take the payment as severance, you get a $2000/year per year of employment prior to, I believe 93 or 94 that you can shelter.  And if you were not building a pension during that time (say reserves) there is another 1500.


----------



## Occam

Jungle said:
			
		

> Non taxable ?? Did I miss something ?



http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/rrsp-reer/trnsfrrng/lgbl-eng.html

If you take your severance at retirement (from the CF), as a true retiring allowance, you can tax shelter some of it in accordance with the above provisions.  This is in addition to any unused RRSP headroom that you've accumulated over the years.


----------



## winks2872

Jungle said:
			
		

> Non taxable ?? Did I miss something ?
> 
> Do they include Petawawa in the NCR ?  8)



I do not believe Pet is part of the NCR. It would include everyone under CFSU(O)


----------



## ARMY_101

Jungle said:
			
		

> Do they include Petawawa in the NCR ?  8)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:National_Capital_Region_Borders_-_Greater_Ottawa.png


----------



## once a gunner

So, has anyone actually started to receive their payout yet?


----------



## GnyHwy

There is plenty of talk about it here. http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/105269.600.html

I believe the simplistic, not requiring an audit (i.e. less than 50% payout and all reg force time) applications are being paid out soon.  

As for the ones that need auditting (everyone else), who knows?  Anyone willing to narrow it down any better than between 3 months and 3 years?


----------



## Jungle

winks2872 said:
			
		

> I do not believe Pet is part of the NCR. It would include everyone under CFSU(O)



I know it isn't... I was being sarcastic, wondering if we really need to have close to 25% of our regular force in Ottawa.


----------



## dapaterson

Jungle said:
			
		

> I know it isn't... I was being sarcastic, wondering if we really need to have close to 25% of our regular force in Ottawa.



That number does not correspond to any Reg F stats I've seen for the NCR.  It's oversize, yes, but not that oversize.


----------



## Occam

dapaterson said:
			
		

> That number does not correspond to any Reg F stats I've seen for the NCR.  It's oversize, yes, but not that oversize.



http://www.cfsuo-usfco.forces.gc.ca/au-ns/index-eng.asp

"The Unit provides administrative support to approximately 10,000 Regular and Reserve Force personnel employed in the NCR and to 500 military members serving outside Canada."

Way under 25%...


----------



## BinRat55

once a gunner said:
			
		

> So, has anyone actually started to receive their payout yet?



Nothing yet. I'm told _possibly_ end of the month, _maybe_ June...


----------



## PuckChaser

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> _maybe_ June...



June 2015?  >


----------



## BinRat55

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> June 2015?  >



Lol!! No, this June (for us 50 percenters...)


----------



## Jungle

Occam said:
			
		

> http://www.cfsuo-usfco.forces.gc.ca/au-ns/index-eng.asp
> 
> "The Unit provides administrative support to approximately 10,000 Regular and Reserve Force personnel employed in the NCR and to 500 military members serving outside Canada."
> 
> Way under 25%...



Yeah... I was quoting the number in an earlier post.


----------



## AirDet

A little good news, several RCAF bases have announced payment for the 50%-ers. Theirs have been processed to the banks. They did note that the numbers were rather low.


----------



## DAA

AirDet said:
			
		

> They did note that the numbers were rather low.



Kind of makes me wonder if something went amuck along the way....


----------



## George Wallace

Interesting.

Got this email today:



> From: FinanceCanadaAlert_AlerteFinancesCanada@smtp.fin.gc.ca
> To: me@me
> Subject: New Finance Canada document notification
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:32:23 -0400
> 
> The following Audits and Evaluations has just been posted on the Finance Canada Site.
> 
> Audit of Payments in Lieu of Severance Pay
> http://www.fin.gc.ca/treas/audit/plsp-pvtid-eng.asp
> 
> 
> Vérification des paiements versés à titre d'indemnités de départ
> http://www.fin.gc.ca/treas/audit/plsp-pvtid-fra.asp
> 
> 
> 
> Please DO NOT REPLY to this message.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## honestyrules

Georges, 

What I get from this email/link you got is that the Public Service got their payments somewhat quickly and flawlessly on average. Do we know how long they waited after they submitted their paperwork until they got their payments?


It would be nice to get an update on the MIL side of the house. At least knowing that one member received payment already, or some clerk telling us that some will receive it at the end of the month...
I called the BOR a few weeks back and all I got was "we told everybody it would take a long time". I understand their point of view. The clerks don't want to create more expectations from members.

Regards,


----------



## George Wallace

delavan said:
			
		

> Georges,
> 
> What I get from this email/link you got is that the Public Service got their payments somewhat quickly and flawlessly on average. Do we know how long they waited after they submitted their paperwork until they got their payments?
> 
> It would be nice to get an update on the MIL side of the house. At least knowing that one member received payment already, or some clerk telling us that some will receive it at the end of the month...
> I called the BOR a few weeks back and all I got was "we told everybody it would take a long time". I understand their point of view. The clerks don't want to create more expectations from members.
> 
> Regards,



Before you ask again; have you read the previous posts?


----------



## honestyrules

Although I did read thru the whole topic, I managed to miss the one relevent post answering my question :-[ Let me facepalm myself :facepalm:


----------



## Good2Golf

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> Got this email today:







> 1. Breakdown of Population Versus Sample Size by Employee Category and Group:
> Category and Group  Population / (Number of Employees) Sample Size / (No. of Cases and % of Employees)
> 
> PA category (AS, IS, PM, CR, ST groups at Finance)  227  11 (5%)
> EB category (LS group at Finance)                     3   1 (33%)
> PE group                                             22   2 (9%)
> EX group                                            161  24 (15%)
> *Totals                                        413  38 (9%)*




Scrolling to the Conclusion of the report linked by Mr. Wallace, did anybody think that 161 of 413 people in the Dept. of Finance being EX-level is a bit top heavy?  How many EX does DND have for 100,000+ Mil/Civ?   ???

Using Finance Canada's ratios, would we not have 39,000+ Col/Gen/Civ EX1+


----------



## Monsoon

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Scrolling to the Conclusion of the report linked by Mr. Wallace, did anybody think that 161 of 413 people in the Dept. of Finance being EX-level is a bit top heavy?  How many EX does DND have for 100,000+ Mil/Civ?   ???
> 
> Using Finance Canada's ratios, would we not have 39,000+ Col/Gen/Civ EX1+


It seems like the files examined were chosen so that they _"struck a balance between employee groups, options chosen and high-value payments._" I would guess that EX1s would have both high salary rates and long years of service, meaning that their PiLs would be very large. That would be sure to trigger the audit risk assessment profile they used to choose who they audited, so I expect that proportionally many more EX1 payouts were audited than worker-bee payouts.


----------



## Good2Golf

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> It seems like the files examined were chosen so that they _"struck a balance between employee groups, options chosen and high-value payments._" I would guess that EX1s would have both high salary rates and long years of service, meaning that their PiLs would be very large. That would be sure to trigger the audit risk assessment profile they used to choose who they audited, so I expect that proportionally many more EX1 payouts were audited than worker-bee payouts.



My point wasn't about the relatively high number of the sample size of  the EX population payouts audited, but rather that the actual population of the EX branch (161) to the overall Fin C population.

Either the EX population is over a third of the Fin C personnel, or the legend in not well written and there are more employees in Fin C that were not even identified.


----------



## Rheostatic

Finance has 756 employees. 413 is just the population used for the audit. Don't ask me why, though.


----------



## Good2Golf

Still, that's 25% of the entire Dept at the EX level!


----------



## dapaterson

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Still, that's 25% of the entire Dept at the EX level!



And their mandate and work likely justifies that, as a knowledge-centric organization.  Very different from DND/CF.


----------



## BinRat55

AirDet said:
			
		

> A little good news, several RCAF bases have announced payment for the 50%-ers. Theirs have been processed to the banks. They did note that the numbers were rather low.



Do you think this has something to do with the fact that they are "RCAF" or that they are smaller in population? Generally speaking, AF bases are smaller in population (not all obviously - Cold Lake is a rather large base) and when I was in Gander, our RMS were quite on the ball and very quick...


----------



## Loachman

Some of our people are getting theirs at the end of this month.


----------



## AirDet

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Do you think this has something to do with the fact that they are "RCAF" or that they are smaller in population? Generally speaking, AF bases are smaller in population (not all obviously - Cold Lake is a rather large base) and when I was in Gander, our RMS were quite on the ball and very quick...



I'm not willing to say there is any particular reason why. My personal observation has been that RMS are all the same. As for RCAF bases being smaller I don't think that applies either. 8 Wing Trenton is a huge base and they've started paying out already. 12 Wing Shearwater is also sending to the banks.

No matter, I think our people are just glad that there is progress.


----------



## dapaterson

AirDet said:
			
		

> I'm not willing to say there is any particular reason why. My personal observation has been that RMS are all the same. As for RCAF bases being smaller I don't think that applies either. 8 Wing Trenton is a huge base and they've started paying out already. 12 Wing Shearwater is also sending to the banks.
> 
> No matter, I think our people are just glad that there is progress.



For an air base, Trenton is big.  It's smaller than either Naval base, smaller than Borden, and smaller than seven Army bases.  "Air Force Big" is still less than half the size of Valcartier or Halifax.


----------



## DAA

AirDet said:
			
		

> I'm not willing to say there is any particular reason why. My personal observation has been that RMS are all the same. As for RCAF bases being smaller I don't think that applies either. 8 Wing Trenton is a huge base and they've started paying out already. 12 Wing Shearwater is also sending to the banks.
> 
> No matter, I think our people are just glad that there is progress.



Based on my own personal experience, I find that the Air Force has a tendancy to make processes "simple" while involving the least amount of people as possible.  Whilst the Army tends to place too many layers of approval in the Admin process.


----------



## Loachman

DAA said:
			
		

> I find that the Air Force has a tendancy to make processes "simple" while involving the least amount of people as possible.



Not on the command and control side. No, not at all.

I just saw the worst op order in forty uniformed years today.


----------



## honestyrules

I noticed today it's showing on my end-of-april pay statement on EMAA. I'm in Saint-Jean, Qc.


----------



## Good2Golf

The Air Force makes justifying hotels easy....C2, not so much.



			
				Loachman said:
			
		

> Not on the command and control side. No, not at all.
> 
> I just saw the worst op order in forty uniformed years today.



  :nod:


  Pretty spectacular, non?


----------



## technophile

in a awesome show of " stick it to you "  I was just informed by my OR that they will not be processing any 50% PIL payments until at least June.   Apparently, they are too busy.   ( I am in a unit of approx 500 pers with one of the largest ORs I have ever seen )


----------



## ARMY_101

technophile said:
			
		

> in a awesome show of " stick it to you "  I was just informed by my OR that they will not be processing any 50% PIL payments until at least June.   Apparently, they are too busy.   ( I am in a unit of approx 500 pers with one of the largest ORs I have ever seen )



My OR administers 900 pers and we finished the last week of March. Priorities...


----------



## vandoos283

Hi, is this for the 50% and below or for everyone? Thanks.


----------



## AirDet

I was at a party this weekend and had a conversation with one of our OR clerks. They told me that several bases including this one didn't bother sending the PIL Applications to Ottawa as they came in like the CANFORGEN specified. Instead they sent them all in at once at the very end. 

That's a pretty good kick in the teeth for those who had their crap together and submitted early. I guess those ones will be waiting till next near before they see any cash.

Then again, the clerk may have been mistaken.  :


----------



## George Wallace

"I was at a party".....

Say no more.


----------



## kratz

The next time you want help, insert your teeth.   :facepalm:

Your posts here continue to bash an understaffed trade compared to their duties assigned and 
carring on with additional mandated work.

You are bitching on a private forum, anonymously maligning a hard working trade to your heart's delight.
Venting your frustration and offering logical fallacy 'proof' to make clerical efforts sound worse than the actually are.

Yet if a clerk were to stand near you during your duties and call your work into question
as "an expert" because 'I know how I would do it', those same comments would never be 
accepted, compared with the crap you are intent on posting here.

There is a phrase, if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

- Don't tell a trade how to do it's job outside of work is a good start.
- Ask the Chief Clerk if the rumour is true, because that is what really what you heard. Working clerks do NOT know it all.
- Find out why that choice was made? Because pay increase / allowances reviews (audits), claims and other admin take time,
- Along with other CF mandated training like PT standards, CRRs and the fact everyone thinks all clerks are experts in the trade from
QL3 on, but do not consider we need time for training. 

Crap, I vented. Shrug, it was cathartic after reading AirDet's vendetta posts.


----------



## JesseWZ

AirDet said:
			
		

> I was at a party this weekend and had a conversation with one of our OR clerks. They told me that several bases including this one didn't bother sending the PIL Applications to Ottawa as they came in like the CANFORGEN specified. Instead they sent them all in at once at the very end.
> 
> That's a pretty good kick in the teeth for those who had their crap together and submitted early. I guess those ones will be waiting till next near before they see any cash.
> 
> Then again, the clerk may have been mistaken.  :



One of the cardinal rules of money management (particularly within the CF) is *Don't spend money that is not already in the bank*.
This goes for promotion money (bomb an express test, fail medical, etc), TD money (injured and sent home early from course?), or in this case, payment in lieu of severance. 

If you weren't planning on getting out this year why does it matter so much? At the risk of sounding like I drink the corporate kool-aid, I would expect hope current deployments, (ie. the Mission), is the highest priority of everyone in the CF. Yes, we do have organizational inefficiencies, and possibly too many levels of HQ, but your complaints are turning into whining and I already have tinnitus.


----------



## AirDet

I certainly hope you "gentlemen" are not indicative of your unit's attitude.

For the record, I'm a 50%er. My payment is already posted.

Where I have a problem is the institutionalized inefficiencies in certain professions and trades. Our people deserve better than the callous attitudes of some of the bitter old timers that should've retired years ago. 

To think both the army and navy can't figure out why all their bright young people are leaving...  :facepalm:


----------



## JesseWZ

AirDet said:
			
		

> Our people deserve better than the callous attitudes of some of the bitter old timers  that should've retired years ago.
> 
> To think both the army and navy can't figure out why all their bright young people are leaving...  :facepalm:



I'm 25. I'm not even bitter, maybe a little sour, but not bitter. You probably don't spend a lot of time in the recruiting forum to know we have many many more bright young people applying then we need.

Also, I'm just going to call it like I see it, this isn't just the CA and RCN's problem.

 But, I'm still in the army and obviously must be neither young nor bright, as those lucky few have all departed for the heavenly blue shores of the RCAF.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

AirDet said:
			
		

> I certainly hope you "gentlemen" are not indicative of your unit's attitude.
> 
> For the record, I'm a 50%er. My payment is already posted.
> 
> Where I have a problem is the institutionalized inefficiencies in certain professions and trades. Our people deserve better than the callous attitudes of some of the bitter old timers that should've retired years ago.
> 
> To think both the army and navy can't figure out why all their bright young people are leaving...  :facepalm:



Pull in your horns and put the big paintbrush away.

---Staff---


----------



## George Wallace

AirDet said:
			
		

> I certainly hope you "gentlemen" are not indicative of your unit's attitude.
> 
> For the record, I'm a 50%er. My payment is already posted.
> 
> Where I have a problem is the institutionalized inefficiencies in certain professions and trades. Our people deserve better than the callous attitudes of some of the bitter old timers that should've retired years ago.
> 
> To think both the army and navy can't figure out why all their bright young people are leaving...  :facepalm:



It appears to me that you are a member of what I used to call the "Mcdonald's Generation".....You know; the ones who want to get in and get their burger/money/Trade/whatever fast and get out without putting in any effort/dedication/etc.  You give off an aura of one who has that great sense of "entitlement" that is so rampant amongst the younger generation these days.  So don't talk about others who have been there and have a very good idea of how slow bureaucracy moves in this nation.  Say......This has the makings of a great T-Shirt.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

AirDet said:
			
		

> I certainly hope you "gentlemen" are not indicative of your unit's attitude.
> 
> For the record, I'm a 50%er. My payment is already posted.
> 
> Where I have a problem is the institutionalized inefficiencies in certain professions and trades. Our people deserve better than the callous attitudes of some of the bitter old timers that should've retired years ago.
> 
> To think both the army and navy can't figure out why all their bright young people are leaving...  :facepalm:



I think what the Gentlemen were referring to was your blanket statements, such as "institutionalized inefficiencies".  The Logistics trade, on a day to day basis, deals with more (IMHO of course) than does the average "troop".  I could just as easily discuss the institutional inefficiencies of the Air ops, or any other trades.  Can you prove that any delays were caused by callous, bitter old timers, or are you making assumptions? In reality, this is "free money" which no one should have considered into their annual income or spent.... it's an allotment that had been held aside previously for when a member got out, but is now being paid out in lieu of a change in systems.  Unless the pers spent the money already under the assumption that they were getting it, than it shouldn't matter when they get it.  Sure, it would be nice to get it sooner rather than later, but as a over 50%er who hasn't received the payment, I focus my attention on the 50 things in my life that are more important than spending money that I never had.

Also, your statement of the best and brightest leaving is slightly ignorant of reality.  Not all the people getting out are the "best and brightest" and I would suggest factors such as re-adjustment to garrison routine from the pace of deployments, opportunities in the west, etc etc etc.  

As your source of information is "from a party" I'll assume that you're rank is in the Gnr-Bdr (Pte-Cpl) range.  You need to consider the bigger picture, particularly if you're going to post such schlock on a forum with some of the callous, bitter old timers on it.  Or have your facts straight.


----------



## BinRat55

What confuses me, simply, is... 



			
				AirDet said:
			
		

> I was at a party this weekend and had a conversation with one of our OR clerks. They told me that several bases _*including this one *_didn't bother sending the PIL Applications to Ottawa as they came in like the CANFORGEN specified. Instead they sent them all in at once at the very end.
> 
> That's a pretty good kick in the teeth for those who had their crap together and submitted early. I guess those ones will be waiting till next near before they see any cash.
> 
> Then again, the clerk may have been mistaken.  :



(See MY bolded)

And further down he says...



			
				AirDet said:
			
		

> For the record, I'm a 50%er. My payment is already posted.



 ???


----------



## George Wallace

He was at a party.


Probably had a few so that his thought processes did not process the fact that what the "clerk" said and what he had in the bank did not equate to result in a logical conclusion.

 ;D


----------



## BinRat55

That... is ... just... frickin... profound!!


----------



## Fishbone Jones

All right kids. back on topic.

---Staff---


----------



## AirDet

You guys are rather bitchy today. I'm guessing you're all Toronto fans.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

AirDet said:
			
		

> You guys are rather bitchy today. I'm guessing you're all Toronto fans.



You don't get it, do you.

---Staff---


----------



## PAdm

I love reading these threads. You never know where the ride will take you. My thanks to those who understand and defended the support world in this thread.


----------



## ARMY_101

Good news: PIL payment is on my 30 Apr 13 pay statement
Bad news: they withheld the taxes even though I filed the form to NOT withhold taxes :facepalm:


----------



## BinRat55

Any 50%ers from Gagetown see their PiL yet?


----------



## technophile

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Any 50%ers from Gagetown see their PiL yet?



If you are in a unit like mine, you will get your 50% when the clerks are good and ready to give it to you.  Although authorized to pay out as of 1 apr, more pressing issues such as inter-section golf day, Sqn BBQs, and standing down at noon on Fridays take priority.


----------



## BinRat55

Hmmm... you sound a little bitter? I was just curious - I know that MY very awesome RMS clerk is quite over worked and under appreciated...


----------



## Fishbone Jones

technophile said:
			
		

> If you are in a unit like mine, you will get your 50% when the clerks are good and ready to give it to you.  Although authorized to pay out as of 1 apr, more pressing issues such as inter-section golf day, Sqn BBQs, and standing down at noon on Fridays take priority.



Yeah, like you wouldn't take the rest of the day off on Friday if offered. Or miss the BBQ. Or a sport you were interested in just to hang about and do your job. :


----------



## technophile

recceguy said:
			
		

> Yeah, like you wouldn't take the rest of the day off on Friday if offered. Or miss the BBQ. Or a sport you were interested in just to hang about and do your job. :



I'm all for time off, and morale building.  However, the direction on Friday was  "stand down if there is nothing else going on " . I know the OR shut down, because I was one of the pers who still stayed to 1600 as I had work to finish up.

Our OR is closed to " walk ins" every Wednesday so clerks can catch up. This week, they were also minimum manned on tues due to golf, then stood down on Friday afternoon at 1300.   I asked one of the clerks at the gym on Monday if PIL payments were going o be on the May pay, and he replied  " not likely because they are too busy"
Hmmmm. Sounds like a busy week to me. 

On a slightly different rant, although related to my above example.  I am seeing more and more supervisors  pat themselves on the back for " looking after the troops" by giving time off and coming up with the " undermanned" excuse every time a tasking comes up.   Looking after the troops is fine, but only after the work is done.

I'm not a " newbie " Sigs  MCpl either for those that may suggest I need more time in to develop leadership skills and see " the other side of the coin" .  I was a Sgt in 2 RCR before remustering. I know all about making tough leadership decisions, and looking after my troops. We worked hard, played hard. Experienced extreme highs, and the lowest of lows. I never put myself before my troops, but I can't get over the attitude of garrison life. Especially in Ottawa.


----------



## upandatom

@Technophile....

By the way you are talking it sounds like JSR? surprised in great Alberta on ex if that's the case,

The rest;

On this topic, 
The only issue I can see coming with this is "HE/SHE has his? why don't I have mine?" As in the case with me, a buddy did his basic at approximately the same time as I did, no prior reserve for either of us, but he has his. 

In a perfect world they would of had them all completed and done at once. Its not though, its understandable that it will be scattered because of the pure amount of people. 

I do agree, that actual work takes precedence. Although, when someone is given permission to play on a Intersection team, that becomes a parade. The Chain of Command gave them the permission to participate. They should of said, listen we need you here, talk to the team/organizer see if you can sit this one out. 

It is also not "Free" money as was stated earlier. This is an entitlement. The only reason why you would not get, or receive this money is if you quit. Retirement, contract ending, you get this. This is a change in the system that is allowing this *not free * money to be given early. Severance pay is a reward and thank you for your hard work and dedication and to set you up in your future endeavours. 

I saw earlier about the "McDonald's generation." The Military is not for everyone, after QL3, QL5, PLQ, people may realize this and want to have a more stable home life. They are not taking an education and running. Many of us currently serving have gotten worn down with constant deployments and courses and exercises  over the past 5-10 years of service. Look at that, a member can go 5-10 from a recruit to QL6 member in ten years. They have done their duty, filled their contracts, done the work, and more often then not been through some f*cked up $h!t overseas. 

Cut them some slack, thank them for their help and shake their hands on their last day.


----------



## technophile

ummm K

If posted to JSR, (and currently on EX in Wainwright), you might want to have a nap because your thought process is all over the place. LOL

If you are in garrison right now, (and got a good sleep last night ), you might want to cut down on the redbull.  


all kidding aside.  I get ( I think ) what you are saying.


----------



## SupersonicMax

The CF has to be the worst organisation at admin.  Waiting for claims for 6 MONTHS is not acceptable.  Neither is waiting for 3 years for you PiL.  It seems everything is being dumped onto the members (green procurement courses, ECC, CCC, etc) in order for the organisation to absolve itself if any wrongdoing.  Next time I bring a clerk/Log O/Admin O for a backseat flight, I will make sure he/she understands that the tactical employment and handling of the aircraft and its systems are going to be shared between myself and him/her and that if we die that he/she will be blamed.


----------



## dangerboy

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Next time I bring a clerk/Log O/Admin O for a backseat flight, I will make sure he/she understands that the tactical employment and handling of the aircraft and its systems are going to be shared between myself and him/her and that if we die that he/she will be blamed.



So you are blaming the poor clerks and Log Officers that do not write policy but have to try and understand and implement it?


----------



## OldSolduer

dangerboy said:
			
		

> So you are blaming the poor clerks and Log Officers that do not write policy but have to try and understand and implement it?



Not only that, but RMS clerks are in high demand. There is not enough of them to go around.


----------



## SupersonicMax

dangerboy said:
			
		

> So you are blaming the poor clerks and Log Officers that do not write policy but have to try and understand and implement it?



It was a tongue in cheek comments. I get it, they don't have much power.  However, they will eventually get up through the ranks and remember.  I actually jokingly tell them that when I fly with one, just to see their reaction.

My trade is short and we respond to the demand.  Yes, often it means working 10-12-14 hrs days.  I have yet to see clerks working past 1600.  Yet, claims are still 6 months behind.


----------



## Teager

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It was a tongue in cheek comments. I get it, they don't have much power.  However, they will eventually get up through the ranks and remember.  I actually jokingly tell them that when I fly with one, just to see their reaction.
> 
> My trade is short and we respond to the demand.  Yes, often it means working 10-12-14 hrs days.  I have yet to see clerks working past 1600.   Yet, claims are still 6 months behind.




Hmm must be an airforce thing   ;D On the army side I see plenty in the office at 0600 hrs and there till 2100hrs.


----------



## captloadie

MAX, while I agree in part with your argument, don't try to fool the masses with the whole 10-12-14 hour days. You do that maybe twice a week, on the weeks you get to fly. You spend the rest of your days working 8 hour days (maybe) just like everyone else.

And before you go off on how the hell would I know, I work across the street from your kind, and am well aware of the daily routine.


----------



## SupersonicMax

captloadie,

I work on average 10hrs a day.  On days I fly, I'll be at work for at least 12.  I fly on average 3 days a week (flew 305 hrs last year)

That does not include the 24 hrs shits in the QRA followes by a regular working day (shift in the QRA as in you sleep there and cannot get out for 24 hrs).  You see 20% of what we do.  In the last 4.5 months, I have been home 5 weeks.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The Hardest Working Man in Show Business

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEICsXpTTcU


----------



## 392

Teager said:
			
		

> On the army side I see plenty in the office at 0600 hrs and there till 2100hrs.



Absolutely. Clerks are short in supply, long in demand. They cannot all be painted with the same brush. They have to follow CF procedures, no matter how messed up they may be, just like the rest of us.


And while we're taking our d*cks out and moaning about time home or lack thereof, I'll see the 5 weeks home in 4.5 months and raise a "from the period of 2005 - 2010, I spend a grand total of 10 non-consecutive months home" (i.e. summer, Xmas and HLTA leave periods only) :  It's part of my job to be away, just like it is for every CF member, so please leave  irrelevant information like this out of it.


----------



## Teager

Max, I don't know how long you've been flying for or how many tours you've gone on but maybe your just startin to feel the burn a bit or perhaps family has become a more bigger part in your life since joining so the smaller things can start to frustrate you. For your claims that are outstanding I suggest you talk to your clerks about what the exact delay is. There can be a ton of reasons why its taking so long. I currently work as a clerk and I try to prioritize my work so that pay and claims are at the top of my list. Hopefully it can all be worked out and the delays won't take as long in the future.

A little tip if you pop by your clerks office even just to say a quick hello and hows everyone doing they will notice that and you might notice that your paper work gets done a little quicker  :nod:


----------



## NavalMoose

hey Teager, are you at work now and if you are, shouldn't you be processing claims instead of surfing the internet...lol?


----------



## Remius

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> captloadie,
> 
> I work on average 10hrs a day.  On days I fly, I'll be at work for at least 12.  I fly on average 3 days a week (flew 305 hrs last year)
> 
> That does not include the 24 hrs shits in the QRA followes by a regular working day (shift in the QRA as in you sleep there and cannot get out for 24 hrs).  You see 20% of what we do.  In the last 4.5 months, I have been home 5 weeks.



May I suggest, with respect, that perhaps you apply the same train of thought to clerks.  You likely only see 20% of what they do as well.  And likely don't even know what kind of crap they also have to put up with.


----------



## Teager

NavalMoose said:
			
		

> hey Teager, are you at work now and if you are, shouldn't you be processing claims instead of surfing the internet...lol?



I'm on a return to work from injuries oversease I don't work full days and had medical appointments early this morning. I am a combat engineer and still badged as one but do have a clerks QL3.


----------



## NavalMoose

Fair enough, I hope you get better as quick as possible


----------



## technophile

Teager said:
			
		

> A little tip if you pop by your clerks office even just to say a quick hello and hows everyone doing they will notice that and you might notice that your paper work gets done a little quicker  :nod:



so, I need to butter up the clerks in order for them to process my paperwork ?  Interesting.    The sad part is, I am sure you are not joking.  Real professional.


----------



## George Wallace

technophile said:
			
		

> so, I need to butter up the clerks in order for them to process my paperwork ?  Interesting.    The sad part is, I am sure you are not joking.  Real professional.



You sound so professional in commenting in such a manner as well.  That in itself is quite interesting.  Wouldn't you say?


----------



## technophile

ok George, I guess we could go back and forth with the " your comment about me being unprofessional was unprofessional. Wouldn't you say? " merry go round.


----------



## Remius

technophile said:
			
		

> so, I need to butter up the clerks in order for them to process my paperwork ?  Interesting.    The sad part is, I am sure you are not joking.  Real professional.



I think what Teager was saying is that if you create an interpersonal relationship with the people that do the work it is likely to create a sense of investment in what they do.  it's easy to look at numbers and lists as exactly that but when you can put a face to it in a positive light it can help.  I know with my work, if I meet people at the other end it motivates me a bit more to go the extra mile. 

Having dealt with clerks I find I get way more out of the experience by investing a bit in them.  Whether it's saying hi and discussing what they are up to or just asking how things are going, making small talk etc.  When I need something, I find they are more receptive and accomodating and I get my calls returned.  It's not a question of buttering up anyone, it's called social interaction.  If act like a jerk they'll remember that.  Act like a nice guy/gal when you don't have to and they'll remember that too.


----------



## dapaterson

Treating people like shit and dumping on them constantly is not, generally, a valid leadership technique, nor does it result in optimal results.

Taking interest in them and supporting them, on the other hand, tends to have effective results.


Your milage may vary.


----------



## technophile

Never once did I say I treated anyone like crap. Sure I'm bitching online, but I don't stand outside the OR stamping my fist and demand service.  
I do my job, I expect everyone to do theirs.   To the clerks, I should just be a number on a page, and everyone is to be treated the same.  To think that I need to make anyone smile when they read my name in order to get my paperwork processed in a timely manner is ridiculous.

In my line of work, I don't get to choose who I provide expert service to and who I don't. Regardless of my opinion of them.


----------



## Teager

Never did I say that everyone elses paper work would not get done in a timely fashion. At the end of the day a clerks job is to support the member and get the paper work processed. People do do there jobs but if you develop a rapport with your clerks chances are things just go more quickly and smoothly. If you talk with them and you start to learn about each other maybe they know something that is very high importance to you that needs to get done more quickly then normal but if you hadn't developed that rapport it would just be another piece of paper work to be processed sitting in the pile.

I've been on the combat arms side of things and have seen the s*** pumps and guess what they get poorer treatment but when in combat or in the field we still have there back and we know they have ours.

In any line of work some politeness and cheerfulness can go a long way and makes business run a lot smoother for both parties.

The "do it regardless because its your job" attitude doesn't go very far. Yes, i'll do it but now you've put me in a more negative mood and if it doesn't need to be done right away chances are it won't. You may think differently but thats just how the game is played.


----------



## OldSolduer

technophile said:
			
		

> so, I need to butter up the clerks in order for them to process my paperwork ?  Interesting.    The sad part is, I am sure you are not joking.  Real professional.


And you are?

What does it hurt to be polite and courteous?


----------



## DAA

I used to teach my Clerks, regardless of how the customer presents themself, politeness and respect to that person goes much further than you can imagine.  Listen to what they have to say and then help them where you can.  They are NOT pissed at you, they are pissed at an idea they have in their head.  Take the extra time to talk to them, explain things to them and try to make your answers clear and helpful.  Never let them leave the office without an answer that you yourself would want to hear or know if you were sitting on the other side of the desk/counter.

I had a Cpl who said "If I did that for everyone that came in, I would not get any work done".  I responded by saying "try it on one of your repeat customers and see what effect it has".

The Cpl came back to me a week later and said "I tried it like you said but now, everyone coming into the OR, is asking to talk to me".........

It caught on pretty quick and next thing you know, there was no one coming into the OR, because everyone had the answers and help that they deserved the first time around.

So if your PIL or whatever is not being processed, it's not the Clerks fault.  They are only following directions from up above as to what is or what isn't a priority......

Edit - if my CoC told me PIL was not high on the priority list, I would tell them that "Money is always a priority, whether or not you consider it to be a bonus.  It tends to have an adverse effect on morale, so let's just get this done and out of the way".  If they can't figure that one out, then their head is in the clouds........


----------



## Halifax Tar

I don't get it.  I was told from the very beginning of this that the pay our for the 100%'ers would take some time.  Were people told different ?  

We are taught from BRT up that you should never spend money you don't have, YET, and don't use allowances in financial decision making; have people forgot about this ?  

Fill out the paper work, submit it on time or before, and sit back and forget about it until it that was and still is my COA.


----------



## DAA

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> I don't get it.  I was told from the very beginning of this that the pay our for the 100%'ers would take some time.  Were people told different ?
> 
> We are taught from BRT up that you should never spend money you don't have, YET, and don't use allowances in financial decision making; have people forgot about this ?
> 
> Fill out the paper work, submit it on time or before, and sit back and forget about it until it that was and still is my COA.



You are entirely correct, payout for the 50% plus crowd will take more time!  This is all about the "less than 50%er's" and the fact that their submissions have been staffed at local level, forwarded, approved by HICON and the approval for payment has been given back to their local supporting orderly room.

So the paperwork was filled out on time, they have sat back and now the people they staffed it to have the approval to action it.  But it's not being actioned.

It's kind of like, applying for leave, having it approved but then when the time comes being told you can't take your leave, because the OR doesn't have the time to process it.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I am never rude with people that are not rude to me.  I will always try to take 2 minutes to ask how the person is doing and chat about things before going into business.  

This is not on the clerks or even the units Log Os.  It's very much a leadership and system issue.  Leaders are sometimes afraid to make unpopular decisions that are going to maybe negatively affect the morale of 1 group but increase the overall morale of the organization.  Here's an example.  

We do night flying.  The night shift for technicians get into work at 1730.  That's for the full week.  Every support organization on base or at the units close at the latest 1600.  So no service possible for that shift unless the come in early and have to spend 10+ hours at work in order to do some admin before work.  How about shifting the schedule for the support units too?  Not until 2AM but let's say from 1200-2000.  Night flying is known ahead of time and is a base wide thing. 

The organization, in my years in the military has become more and more micromanaging.  To the point everything has to be vetted by the leadership.  It has become "procedures" over the years that people will blame for inefficiencies.  There is no more trust in the training and judgment of subordinates and in consequence, delegation of authority is a rarity.  Both in the operational and admin sides of the house. 

Example:  Generals are making tactical decisions in theater.  CAOC is hooked up to Predator/Rover feeds all day long.  Yup.  Technology is great, however you still need to trust your men.  Give the tactical leaders a mission and an intent and let them run with the plan.  If it succeeds, reward them.  If it fails, make them responsible.

Halifax Tar:  Because you are told something before hand doesn't make it right.  You could be told that from now on, every claim is going to be a minimum of 1 year for processing (that's essentially what the PiL is).  Does that make it right?  Sitting back and forgetting about it is the way that will make the system go deeper and deeper into the hole it's digging up now.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Is it time to go back to when the trade was split between finances and the rest of the clerk world?


----------



## Teager

I agree with everything there Max. Since your on a shift schedule there should be at least one or two clerks that overlap into night shifts so that you guys have a chance to get your admin done. You should propose this idea up through your CoC and explain the reasons. You might actualy get what your asking for and if not well at least your no worse off.


----------



## garb811

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> We do night flying.  The night shift for technicians get into work at 1730.  That's for the full week.  Every support organization on base or at the units close at the latest 1600.  So no service possible for that shift unless the come in early and have to spend 10+ hours at work in order to do some admin before work.  How about shifting the schedule for the support units too?  Not until 2AM but let's say from 1200-2000.  Night flying is known ahead of time and is a base wide thing.


Contrary to your small view of the world, the aviation community is not the only ones who work weird and wonderful hours and the rest of that world gets along just fine.

But, just to humour you, how many people are actually working these shifts and, out of that comparatively small number, how many actually really *need* to do Admin during that shift (when they really should be doing the job they are scheduled to be doing anyways instead of spending time doing admin) as opposed to normal opening hours?  And knowing that, on the very, very small chance that someone just might walk into the OR to conduct admin means a clerk should be there "just in case" which means they are unavailable to serve clients when the vast majority of the customers actually attend?  Reality is this is not an issue for anyone who has any ability to organize their life at the level expected of a kid in Grade 6 particularly since, as you point out, the times there is night flying is known ahead of time.  

To be clear, I know of what I speak having lived the life of working 12 hour shifts on a rotating basis for a good part of my early and middle career.  I have also been posted to Embassies where my Admin support was completely out of synch with my working day and I got along just fine through some creative thinking and adult problem solving skills.  Don't look for a problem where there really isn't one just because you think it makes you sound like you're "looking out for the troops".


----------



## SupersonicMax

garb811 said:
			
		

> Contrary to your small view of the world, the aviation community is not the only ones who work weird and wonderful hours and the rest of that world gets along just fine.



Have I said anything like that?  No, I gave 1 example I am familiar with.  Given I am in the RCAF, well I gave an Air Force example..



			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> But, just to humour you, how many people are actually working these shifts and, out of that comparatively small number, how many actually really *need* to do Admin during that shift (when they really should be doing the job they are scheduled to be doing anyways instead of spending time doing admin) as opposed to normal opening hours?  And knowing that, on the very, very small chance that someone just might walk into the OR to conduct admin means a clerk should be there "just in case" which means they are unavailable to serve clients when the vast majority of the customers actually attend?  Reality is this is not an issue for anyone who has any ability to organize their life at the level expected of a kid in Grade 6 particularly since, as you point out, the times there is night flying is known ahead of time.



Actually, the whole operational side of the house is on shifts of some sort.  When the base does night flying, the whole operational side moves it's schedule right by 6-8 hours.  I believe it would be worthwhile moving the support schedule right as well.  Not only for giving time for admin (which by the way should be done during your working hours, not on your own time).  Also for making them part of the whole "kill" chain.  Shifting the focus to operations.  There is nothing more frustrating for the operational folks than seeing support folks operationally disconnected.  Support the operations.  Not the other way around.  We have a no fail mission.  We need support to execute that no fail mission.  All our training is geared towards that mission.  Why should the support be different?  Because they need an 8-4 schedule?



			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> To be clear, I know of what I speak having lived the life of working 12 hour shifts on a rotating basis for a good part of my early and middle career.  I have also been posted to Embassies where my Admin support was completely out of synch with my working day and I got along just fine through some creative thinking and adult problem solving skills.  Don't look for a problem where there really isn't one just because you think it makes you sound like you're "looking out for the troops".



Good for you.  You were one of few people dealing with a very specific and acute issue.  This issue is actually affecting hundreds of people on this base.  Why is the onus always placed on the member and almost never with the system to provide sufficient support?  What is it, if there is something wrong with your pay, it's your responsibility, your claims, your schedule, your training,  you quals....  Right?  Are we providing our people (our most important ressource) enough support?  I'd argue that we are not and when all the small things add up, it turns people off from this line of work and they look elsewhere.  HR, in my experience, is not the forte of the CF.


----------



## Monsoon

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Actually, the whole operational side of the house is on shifts of some sort.  When the base does night flying, the whole operational side moves it's schedule right by 6-8 hours.  I believe it would be worthwhile moving the support schedule right as well.  Not only for giving time for admin (which by the way should be done during your working hours, not on your own time).  Also for making them part of the whole "kill" chain.  Shifting the focus to operations.  There is nothing more frustrating for the operational folks than seeing support folks operationally disconnected.  Support the operations.  Not the other way around.  We have a no fail mission.  We need support to execute that no fail mission.  All our training is geared towards that mission.  Why should the support be different?  Because they need an 8-4 schedule?


That sounds like a fairly compelling case. Have you put it together (with references and supporting examples from other units/environments) into a briefing note for your unit to pass up to the BComd?


----------



## SupersonicMax

I did.  It is somewhere up the chain I imagine.


----------



## AirDet

For a change, I'd like to weigh in on the RMS clerk's behalf. Our OR is staffed by a great bunch and I'm sure that's typical of the majority of them. There aren't enough of them though for the ever increasing levels of bureaucracy that's piled upon them and all the CF.

This PIL for instance should be a straight forward job. Even if 100% of the CF applied for it the timeline should've been short as with our cousins in the RCMP or CRA. However, we have so many more layers of checks and balances then we did 30 years ago when I joined. Factor in the fact that the RMS trade has been shrinking and you're getting to see a systemic problem.

From my little window of the CF world I see treasury board this and treasury board that. In many cases our old CFAOs have been replaced by DAODs that link to multiple treasury documents. The layers just keep coming.

What I'd like to know is when is someone going to clue in and reduce the levels of redundancy to only a few?


----------



## BinRat55

DAA said:
			
		

> It's kind of like, applying for leave, having it approved but then when the time comes being told you can't take your leave, because the OR doesn't have the time to process it.



I like that analogy!

BTW, for those who are actually tracking (not berating, condescending, holier-than-thou peoples) - I'm in Gagetown, a 50%er and nothing yet. Close though!


----------



## ARMY_101

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> The CF has to be the worst organisation at admin.  Waiting for claims for 6 MONTHS is not acceptable.  Neither is waiting for 3 years for you PiL.



Sounds like a unit problem. I've already mentioned earlier that my unit sent all our PIL forms to the PIL team in Ottawa, and they/we have since been paid out. Simple as that. Have your unit get the PIL data to Ottawa and it will be sorted out quickly.


----------



## Halifax Tar

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Sounds like a unit problem. I've already mentioned earlier that my unit sent all our PIL forms to the PIL team in Ottawa, and they/we have since been paid out. Simple as that. Have your unit get the PIL data to Ottawa and it will be sorted out quickly.



Surly you don't include the 100%ers in this statement ?


----------



## BinRat55

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Simple as that. Have your unit get the PIL data to Ottawa and it will be sorted out quickly.



Really? Gee, I don't think our clerks here got that particular directive. Ottawa you say? Simple, huh? What a needless thread this has been when the answer was right there in front of us the whole time. Thanks ARMY_101 - I might just get looked at for promotion for sharing this info with my OR - Imagine what my OC will say when I march right into the OR and demand they send stuff to Ottawa - I'm a free thinker i'll say...

Too much?

Sheesh.


----------



## ARMY_101

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Surly you don't include the 100%ers in this statement ?



_*All *_of our members who elected *any *amount of PIL had their files passed to the PIL team months ago. The files are now with them, so from our unit's side of things, we've done our part.


----------



## ARMY_101

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Really? Gee, I don't think our clerks here got that particular directive. Ottawa you say? Simple, huh? What a needless thread this has been when the answer was right there in front of us the whole time. Thanks ARMY_101 - I might just get looked at for promotion for sharing this info with my OR - Imagine what my OC will say when I march right into the OR and demand they send stuff to Ottawa - I'm a free thinker i'll say...
> 
> Too much?
> 
> Sheesh.



My point is to look at specific units and their work ethics (or lack thereof) rather than painting an entire trade as lazy, selfish, and focused on what's for dinner rather than helping their members get paid.


----------



## BinRat55

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> ...and they/we have since been paid out...



You are a little lost my friend. Find the park ranger and have him escort you back out to the tree with the ribbon on it...



			
				ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> ... The files are now with them, so from our unit's side of things, we've done our part...



Which is it??


----------



## ARMY_101

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> You are a little lost my friend. Find the park ranger and have him escort you back out to the tree with the ribbon on it...
> 
> Which is it??



Both. Our unit has passed all files to the PIL team in Ottawa, which have been processed. Any issues (which I have not heard of any) rest with the PIL team and not our unit. I, for example, elected for 100% payout and received mine on 15 Apr.


----------



## BinRat55

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Both. Our unit has passed all files to the PIL team in Ottawa, which have been processed. Any issues (which I have not heard of any) rest with the PIL team and not our unit. I, for example, elected for 100% payout and received mine on 15 Apr.



Umm... Golden shovels all round!!


----------



## BinRat55

That is to say **cough** bull*** cough...


----------



## ARMY_101

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> That is to say **cough** bull*** cough...



I've no reason to BS about the performance of the PIL team, nor about receiving money. They (my unit's Clerks and the Ottawa PIL team) have done an excellent job processing the files far faster than the projected 2015 completion date, and they've been very open to questions via telephone and email.


----------



## vandoos283

Hi Army 101,  do you still have their email address, thanks.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Keep in mind, *someone/a unit/etc* will be the first to receive the +50%ers.  When they say "possible for 2 years to receive" they didn't mean everyone.  Seems to me they (DMCA PIL Team) are like a lot of us; _plan for the worst, hope for the best_.  With that in mind I've always suspected the '2 years' was the worst case scenario which wouldn't apply to all of us.   :2c:


----------



## stokerwes

Makes sense. They kind of have to protect themselves a bit. If MWO X and MWO Y both applied for 100% PIL and one of them had 25 yrs straight Reg time and the other had mixed Res and Reg time they would not get processed at the same time. I am sure there are some interesting calculations with some pers getting out and back in a few times over the last number of years.
I do however really hope they tried to arrange these files in order of complexity prior to processing. Rather than just one large pile and take whats on the top and carry on.
Some people may take up to two years or longer but I would suspect most will not have to wait nearly that long.


----------



## dapaterson

My understanding is that they are doing them first come, first served.  That said, I know of at least one 100% person who has received their payout, so the system is slowly grinding forward.

My bank account, however, remains lean.


----------



## halifax sailor

I also thought that when you do receive your PIL, it will be seperate from your pay, a few people i know have received there 50% with there pay and not a seperated deposit. As well, i have not heard of anyone except for Army101 receiving their 100%. anyone know of anyone personnally?


----------



## upandatom

technophile said:
			
		

> ummm K
> 
> If posted to JSR, (and currently on EX in Wainwright), you might want to have a nap because your thought process is all over the place. LOL
> 
> If you are in garrison right now, (and got a good sleep last night ), you might want to cut down on the redbull.
> 
> 
> all kidding aside.  I get ( I think ) what you are saying.



Yeah I was a bit all over, so is this thread lol. So its not just me hopped up on redbull and cheap canteen coffee.


----------



## upandatom

The Base Chief in Borden recieved his.........

and apparently some Pte and Cpls as well, but it was noted the Base Chief received his at an O Group


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Was that more or less then 50%


----------



## Remius

About  a dozen or so from my unit have already received theirs.  I was told they would be coming in batches like that at every pay cycle.  As well it seems that only 17% of those eligible to opt did so.  Meaning far less to process.


----------



## MeanJean

I know a sailor here in Halifax that got his 100% payment with his last pay.  He was the first in line at the pay office on the first day with his file in hand.  I also elected for the 100% but got my paperwork in on the first day back from Christmas leave.  My bank account is on the lean side too.


----------



## BinRat55

Has anyone gotten their PiL  as a separate payment, not associated with the pay run?


----------



## jollyjacktar

No.  Mine was included in the payment at the end of last month.


----------



## upandatom

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Was that more or less then 50%



Not sure, 
from what has been going around noone in the St. Jean/Montreal Garrison region has received. 

I guess it depends on if units/Areas/Groups did them all at once or sent in groups. Here ours apparently went from one garrison to the other, then back to the first one then sent to the team in ottawa. Mind you that is gossip, so who knows, given enough time the rumour is gonna say that the files were all lost. 

For the straight forward cases, it should be pretty clear cut. I think they made it a bit more complicated then what they needed to do. If you have reserve time, prove it, if you have a break in service, sort it out. Although I am sure someone had their reasons for doing it that way....


----------



## EME101

MARPAC has a PIL team site that states "The current direction is that the Pay in Lieu of CFSP, regardless of a member’s election choice, will be paid out during the fiscal year 2013/2014, so everyone can expect to be paid out this fiscal year."  So, possibly, it will not be a 3 year wait.


----------



## halifax sailor

and what site would that be, and which fiscal year? 13 or 14? lol


----------



## Good2Golf

FY2013/2014 is a fixed fiscal accounting period -- 1 Apr 13 to 31 Mar 14.   We are in FY13/14 for the next 10 months.

Regards
G2G


----------



## EME101

halifax sailor said:
			
		

> and what site would that be, and which fiscal year? 13 or 14? lol



On the DIN: http://esquimalt.mil.ca/badm/BPAdm/Pay_in_Lieu/PiL%20Home%20Page.htm


----------



## halifax sailor

Anyone have or heard anymore of the progress for the PIL for 100%?


----------



## vandoos283

I did managed to speak with someone from the PIL Team in Ottawa, I've been told my file was processed however, payment could take up to 1 year to reach my bank account, I did elect for the full amount.....Puzzling.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Maybe they aren't using DFT for your payment and are trying a new system, as pictured below.  However the new system can only process a $5 bill at a time to be covered by the insurance...


----------



## vandoos283

I wish that what I can see on that pigeon is a rocket propeller....Nha, highly doubt it...


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> I did managed to speak with someone from the PIL Team in Ottawa, I've been told my file was processed however, payment could take up to 1 year to reach my bank account, I did elect for the full amount.....Puzzling.



How did you get a hold of them?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

If you go onto the DIN search and type in _DMCA PIL TEAM _ you should find the info; IIRC they fall under DMCA 4.


----------



## vandoos283

Its exactly how I did it, had a reply the same day.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I have a feeling Base Shilo sent theirs at one time in bulk.


----------



## BinRat55

Nothing here either. I'm still a 50%er too. I know of more than a few 100%ers who received theirs - one of which had broken service and reserve time! Oh well, like it was said earlier - someone has to be first, right? My biggest beef is when I ask (which has only been twice) I was told - oh, it's in the pile - a day or two max. That was three weeks ago.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Who did u ask?


----------



## BinRat55

Many reasons. Never rudely, never disrespectful. Regardless of my situation, RMS has a job (many jobs) to do and I am somewhat of a "situational control" freak. You get respect when you give respect I always say!


----------



## BinRat55

Oooohh... WHO... I read WHY!!!

My bad.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Lol I wasn't sure if u were posting in the right thread.


----------



## halifax sailor

Not sure why they said to anyone that its in the pile etc.....
this is what i was told when enquiring....

"Due to the excessive volume of PDF files being sent we are requesting that if you have any more than 5 files to send that you send them via mail.  This will greatly increase the amount of time the audotors have to review files and ultimately decrease wait times.  Your cooperation is greatly appreciated. 

You have reached the DMCA 4 PIL Team.  Due to the high volume of emails we receive, it may take a few days for our staff to respond.  Please be patient your email will be responded to.  Please note that we are unable to provide information regarding the status of your file or date of payment and these requests will go unactioned. Thank-you."

"
Due to the high volume of files we have received (over 42,000 and counting) we are unable to provide updates as to the status of files.  Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the DMCA  4 PIL Team in Ottawa.  We are working on files that were received in January.  It is important to note, that files requiring archives access, and/or back and forth to the units for missing substantiating documentation require more time to complete the audit.

PARA 7 of CANFORGEN 241/12 CMP 115/12 122017Z DEC 12
States: NO INFO WILL BE PROVIDED REGARDING THE STATUS OF A MEMBER S FILE OR DATE OF PAYMENT 

For payments of 100% or for those with mixed service payments began the same time as the less than 50% on April 2, 2013.
To date we have sent for payment approx 3,500 files."

anyone else have any info to add?


----------



## upandatom

I thought I had read that no updates would be given, and "received in January" Still a while to go I take it. Still impressed, thats a tonne of files to go through. 

Thanks for the info, 

Be nice to have it early but gonna get it regardless,


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Which email +DMCA 4 PIL PROCESSING@CMP DMCA@Ottawa-Hull or +DMCA 4 PIL Team@CMP DMCA@Ottawa-Hull


----------



## halifax sailor

the one i used is +DMCA 4 PIL Team@CMP DMCA@Ottawa-Hull


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

You didn't get jacked up?


----------



## BinRat55

halifax sailor said:
			
		

> Not sure why they said to anyone that its in the pile etc.....
> 
> anyone else have any info to add?



The "pile" I am referring to is the one in my Base OR that never had to be "processed" off base (i.e. Ottawa). And I know there is a large "pile" of 50% or less files. Make sense now? Before the obvious is pointed out to me, I know that even the 50% or less still had to go to Ottawa, but not for vetting. They all came back good (well, most...)...


----------



## AirDet

Trenton paid out "all' 50% last month. One of my guys sent an email inquiry as to whether or not his file had made it. He applied on day one in December. The team's reply was polite and stated that his file arrived at "end April" and they are currently working on January files. Obviously Trenton sat on them and sent in one batch. :facepalm:

I was quite impressed with the nice reply he received.


----------



## DAA

AirDet said:
			
		

> Trenton paid out "all' 50% last month. One of my guys sent an email inquiry as to whether or not his file had made it. He applied on day one in December. The team's reply was polite and stated that his file arrived at "end April" and they are currently working on January files. Obviously Trenton sat on them and sent in one batch. :facepalm:
> 
> I was quite impressed with the nice reply he received.



The process with regards to the submission of applications for PiL was delegated to local URS's.  So if they "chose" to squirrel away the applications and send in bulk at a later date, then now your paying for that decision......


----------



## AirDet

While I personally don't agree with that process I can see the benefit on a large base. Getting thru a thousand or more applications with a small staff could be a pain. Not spending time packaging and submitting would mean getting thru the stack a little quicker.

It just sucks for those who had their collective crap together though.


----------



## halifax sailor

Bin Rat - i thought you meant in Ottawa that it was in the pile! 

Sheep Dog - No, didnt get jacked up, was a professional email with proper signature block, no where does it say you cannot send an email asking questions, the canforgen just states that they wont tell you about your file. And if i was about to be "JACKED UP" I had a back up plan to follow!


----------



## BinRat55

halifax sailor said:
			
		

> Bin Rat - i thought you meant in Ottawa that it was in the pile!



Seen!


----------



## BinRat55

Got it! Well, almost... it was DFT'd on Monday. 

 ;D


----------



## Drag

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Got it! Well, almost... it was DFT'd on Monday.
> 
> ;D



How do you know?


----------



## BinRat55

D3 said:
			
		

> How do you know?



Our... MY (no, you can't have her...) RMS clerk is a Goddess! She looked and it's in my pay notes.


----------



## halifax sailor

100 per cent Bin RAT? did you do the rrsp thing? or did they take tax? if so approx what per cent? sorry for the questions! and where are you working? lol

never mind, i just read up, your a 50 percenter! lol


----------



## vandoos283

Can someone who already received their %100 indicate how much taxes were taken away from their payment, thanks.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I was getting $21,00 before tax, almost $13,000 after tax

This is the repsonse I recieved from the PIL team:

Good Afternoon,

Wow - it is comments such as the one you just provided that makes this job so worthwhile.  We have received over 43,000 files to date and sometimes this task seems a little overwhelming.

I will pass your words of appreciation and gratitude to my entire team and I can say in advance how much they will appreciate it.

Unfortunately I am unable to provide sit reps to individuals, I can tell you that we are auditing files based on the date they were received in our office.  We are currently reviewing files that were sent to us in early February.

Hopefully you receive your file soon.

Again thank you for your kind words.

Thank you,


----------



## MeanJean

Sheep Dog, thanks for posting the email.  It is good to know that they are working on February.  I submitted mine in January and still no sign yet.  Looks like I will have to drop by the orderly room and see if I can get any info.


----------



## vandoos283

Thank you.


----------



## vandoos283

Mine was submitted back in December, I guess it depends when my unit sent it to the PIL Team anyway, I was told 2 weeks ago by them (PIL) my payment could take up to another year, I'm just hoping they gave me that time line in order to make me happy if it comes early ?? I'm in Ottawa.


----------



## vandoos283

I did ask my OR a few weeks ago and they told me they had nothing to do with the PIL. Apparently by submitting your paperwork it should of made it directly to the PIL Team, I might be wrong on this.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

halifax sailor said:
			
		

> Hi, what was it that you said to them? am wondering, when they are done reviewing/auditing a file, what happens next? does it go back the unit? mine was emailed as per instructions 18 Jan 13. So now they say they are looking at files in early feb, so really, mine should be back by now you would think! right? wonder which method they use to send them back to the units?!



Capitalization, grammar and punctuation are a requirement on this site. Please start following the guidelines by using them. It will make your posts much more comfortable for the readers. Thanks.

---Staff---


----------



## ARMY_101

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> Can someone who already received their %100 indicate how much taxes were taken away from their payment, thanks.



About 40%.


----------



## vandoos283

This is what I received from the PIL Team: 
Good day.
We have conducted initial verification, and have calculated that you have xx.xx yrs of qualifying service for a total gross amount of $xxxxx.xx
Your file will now be sent to DMCA 4 - PIL TEAM for final verification prior to payment. We will notify you when your file is returned from DMCA 4 - PIL TEAM to inform you we will be processing payment.''  Following this email, I asked them how long the process could take from now on, I was told up to a year. Here's my question and hopefully someone can answer it. Can someone indicate how long it took them to receive their $$$, after their file was sent to DMCA $ for final verification (I'm a 100%), thank you.


----------



## ARMY_101

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> This is what I received from the PIL Team:
> Good day.
> We have conducted initial verification, and have calculated that you have xx.xx yrs of qualifying service for a total gross amount of $xxxxx.xx
> Your file will now be sent to DMCA 4 - PIL TEAM for final verification prior to payment. We will notify you when your file is returned from DMCA 4 - PIL TEAM to inform you we will be processing payment.''  Following this email, I asked them how long the process could take from now on, I was told up to a year. Here's my question and hopefully someone can answer it. Can someone indicate how long it took them to receive their $$$, after their file was sent to DMCA $ for final verification (I'm a 100%), thank you.



As I've posted: December 2012: applied for 100%
15 April: Received payment


----------



## brihard

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> As I've posted: December 2012: applied for 100%
> 15 April: Received payment



Thanks for the update. Hopefully the 'one to two years' prognostication turns out to have been worst-case CYA. This will be a low income/high deduction tax year for me, so hopefully it hits my account by December... I'll need it for my damned pension buyback in the fall.


----------



## stokerwes

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> This is what I received from the PIL Team:
> Good day.
> We have conducted initial verification, and have calculated that you have xx.xx yrs of qualifying service for a total gross amount of $xxxxx.xx
> Your file will now be sent to DMCA 4 - PIL TEAM for final verification prior to payment. We will notify you when your file is returned from DMCA 4 - PIL TEAM to inform you we will be processing payment.''  Following this email, I asked them how long the process could take from now on, I was told up to a year. Here's my question and hopefully someone can answer it. Can someone indicate how long it took them to receive their $$$, after their file was sent to DMCA $ for final verification (I'm a 100%), thank you.



Why would they have to re-verify the verification that was sent out last year? Seems a bit redundant. If people had issues with the number of years that the initial verification there was instructions on how to get that corrected. Then again what do I know? I just hope they don't have to do a final verification of the final verification and then verify that the final final verification is correct. >


----------



## 392

Probably the same reason why I had to have a couple of my subordinates' PiL amounts redone as they were wrong after being "verified". In all fairness, when dealing with that amount of paperwork moving around, it should be expected that a couple of issues may pop up. In my case, after a quick phone call, everything was corrected and the new numbers emailed right off (with a bcc to me for my own guys' records).


----------



## halifax sailor

I am wondering how, if Ottawa (PIL Team) states they have just finished processing all files that they had in January, and are now starting on files that they received in Feb. How is it possible that someone that put in for 100% in december, and their OR sent the file in Feb that it was paid out already. Either we are being given wrong information from the PIL team in Ottawa or this person is not being truthfull.


----------



## ARMY_101

halifax sailor said:
			
		

> I am wondering how, if Ottawa (PIL Team) states they have just finished processing all files that they had in January, and are now starting on files that they received in Feb. How is it possible that someone that put in for 100% in december, and their OR sent the file in Feb that it was paid out already. Either we are being given wrong information from the PIL team in Ottawa or this person is not being truthfull.



Who said files were being processed in the order they're received in Ottawa? Clearly they're going to process easy files first, which means one guy (with complex periods of engagements and service) who submitted his request in December could be waiting longer than the guy (with simple service) who applied in March.


----------



## stokerwes

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Who said files were being processed in the order they're received in Ottawa? Clearly they're going to process easy files first, which means one guy (with complex periods of engagements and service) who submitted his request in December could be waiting longer than the guy (with simple service) who applied in March.



I really hope that is the way they are processing them. Is that the way they are being processed? Or are is it just take a file off the top of the pile and process as they come? 
I think the easy files should be done first as the more complex files may take a lot of time to sort out.


----------



## MikeL

Well, I just got a good surprise in the mail, a letter regarding my severance pay info and another envelope containing my cheque.  I opted for the full cash pay out, and I believe I signed off on the severance pay form with my company clerk in early/mid March.

Taxes deducted was 20%


----------



## Eye In The Sky

A real, paper cheque???     I  thought that was considered witchcraft in the CF in the age of DFTs.


----------



## halifax sailor

That one is hard to believe! Everything is direct deposit now, unless you are retired and have been out for awhile, I can maybe see that, but not if your still in. That would mean your pay is sent by cheque as well. The brief on the DMCA page shows what the clerks do when they get the go ahead to proceed to pay. So I honesty have to say BS to getting it in the mail.


----------



## halifax sailor

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Who said files were being processed in the order they're received in Ottawa? Clearly they're going to process easy files first, which means one guy (with complex periods of engagements and service) who submitted his request in December could be waiting longer than the guy (with simple service) who applied in March.




According to the email sent from Ottawa. They state they have finished processing files received in JAN. Now they have begun files they have received in FEB. So if my OR sent my file in FEB, that means the PIL team in Ottawa received it in FEB and just started working on that group. No where did they say that they processed easy ones first. This is why I am questioning that if someone said their file was sent in FEB and the team in Ottawa just finished files they received in JAN. How is one sent in FEB paid out 100% already.  Is the PIL Team with their emails full of BS then? Just asking!


----------



## MikeL

You can call BS all you want halifax sailor, but I did get a cheque in the mail. 


Some extra detail, I released from the Regular Force(transferred to Sup Res, if you checked my profile you would see this) in April.  On retirement leave I got a pay deposit, and a couple weeks later I got another deposit from the CF; my banking info never changed, the Gov't knows what is is as I get direct deposit from Canada Revenue as well, etc.  

Today, I received the letter and cheque from the Released Personnel Pay Office Regular Force.

Correction to last, I submitted the severance pay election form mid February.


----------



## GnyHwy

Are you one of those persons that writes to fan club and thinks that the person responding is that actual star?

Dude, there are a lot of things that can make each case unique and to think that anyone has a special eye on your one specific case is not only naïve, but also arrogant, even if your case is indeed simple.  

You will see as you move up in rank that things that use to be the most important things will turn out to be of so little importance that you won't even think it was you that thought it.


----------



## halifax sailor

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> You can call BS all you want halifax sailor, but I did get a cheque in the mail.  Want a photo/scan of everything they sent me as proof?
> 
> 
> Some extra detail, I released from the Regular Force(transferred to Sup Res, if you checked my profile you would see this) in April.  On retirement leave I got a pay deposit, and a couple weeks later I got another deposit from the CF; my banking info never changed, the Gov't knows what is is as I get direct deposit from Canada Revenue as well, etc.
> 
> Today, I received the letter and cheque from the Released Personnel Pay Office Regular Force.



See, now that makes sense now, no where in youroriginal post did you mention you were not a serving member anymore. You are released now. Your process was different obviously.  Appologize if I offended you.


----------



## Good2Golf

Well...you could have just said politely "Why a cheque?" instead of jumping to a claim of BS...


----------



## vandoos283

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Well...you could have just said politely "Why a cheque?" instead of jumping to a claim of BS...



Indeed.


----------



## Greenman

Are the payouts only being attached to the pay cycles? Or any day of the month as they are processed? 

I like a few others here fear that my Unit held onto early submissions to submit bulk. Unfortunate if that is the case.


----------



## AirDet

Greenman said:
			
		

> Are the payouts only being attached to the pay cycles? Or any day of the month as they are processed?
> 
> I like a few others here fear that my Unit held onto early submissions to submit bulk. Unfortunate if that is the case.


It appears that it's your local pay office that releases the payment. This, I assume makes it easier to manage the taxes (if you got CRA permission to direct all of it to your RRSP)

Be careful posting that opinion here about the bulk submissions. The OLD guard may call you a troll and award you -300 MP points. While it's fact this did happen in many cases they will put the company spin on it and assign blame where none is due.

However, I'll state the PiL team in Ottawa has been awesome. If you email them they'll tell you when your file arrived and even which month they're currently working on. They were very polite with a couple of my guys when they asked. They won't tell you anything other than that about your file but that's often enough to keep the guys happy.

Keep up the good work, PiL Team.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

PIL team told me they couldn't tell me anything.  I know my base sent things in bulk.  They had appoints starting in Jan going to Mar for people taking the severance.


----------



## AirDet

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> PIL team told me they couldn't tell me anything.  I know my base sent things in bulk.  They had appoints starting in Jan going to Mar for people taking the severance.



That's pretty odd. They've been excellent with all my guys. They told them when their files arrived and which month they're currently working on. Of course if they were to give great detail on every inquiry they'd never get to processing any files.

What "appoints" are you talking about? I wasn't aware they actually met with clients. Are you talking about your Base OR?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Sorry, Orderly room held appointments to ensure all info was correct before sending it off to Ottawa.


----------



## Greenman

Thanks for the info, I didn't want to bother the PIL Team, as I figured every email they answered took a little bit of their time away from processing files. I am sure they are working very hard to get this done, and by all accounts are moving pretty quickly through the stacks. At least the 2-3 years seems to be an outside estimate.

I will wait patiently like a good soldier


----------



## AirDet

Greenman said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info, I didn't want to bother the PIL Team, as I figured every email they answered took a little bit of their time away from processing files. I am sure they are working very hard to get this done, and by all accounts are moving pretty quickly through the stacks. At least the 2-3 years seems to be an outside estimate.
> 
> I will wait patiently like a good soldier



Agreed. I was still impressed with the fact they did respond and even offered more info than the guys were asking. Most of them just wanted to make sure their app arrived. What they got back was the date it arrived and what month they were currently working on.

The last reply said they were working on March. I expect that will slow down as posting and vacation season is now upon us. Still, the 2 year estimate may only be in a few rare cases now.


----------



## MeanJean

Here is a question, is there any way to tell that your application has been sent and received?  I just have that funny feeling that mine is sitting in a pile of paperwork on someone's desk.  I am in the UTPNCM program and the ULO was out on the first day back from leave but I handed it to another officer who works with him and, of course, he said he would give it to him.  I handed in two pieces of correspondence and they misplaced one of them.  This was back in January.  

I elected for 100% payout.  When you say they are now processing March applications, does that mean that everyone before has been paid or do they just have their applications entered into the system?  Is there anyway to check on it?

Thanks


----------



## MJP

MeanJean said:
			
		

> Here is a question, is there any way to tell that your application has been sent and received?  I just have that funny feeling that mine is sitting in a pile of paperwork on someone's desk.  I am in the UTPNCM program and the ULO was out on the first day back from leave but I handed it to another officer who works with him and, of course, he said he would give it to him.  I handed in two pieces of correspondence and they misplaced one of them.  This was back in January.
> 
> I elected for 100% payout.  When you say they are now processing March applications, does that mean that everyone before has been paid or do they just have their applications entered into the system?  Is there anyway to check on it?
> 
> Thanks



Check with your OR.  They would have sent the file(s) with a 728 so they would have a record of what was sent and when.  The other thing you can check is if the OR created their own database for tracking purposes.  That would have the info you seek on it.


----------



## MeanJean

Thanks, MJP.  I will drop by the OR tomorrow and hopefully get the answers I am after.


----------



## sidemount

So just so everyone is aware, I just got an email from my OR with a list of people getting their PiL payout on the july midmonth pay.....there was about 20 names.

So the long and short of it is, its on its way, and in way better time than the 2-3 years we have all been hearing


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Were any of the payouts 100%?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

sidemount said:
			
		

> So just so everyone is aware, I just got an email from my OR with a list of people getting their PiL payout on the july midmonth pay.....there was about 20 names.
> 
> So the long and short of it is, its on its way, and in way better time than the 2-3 years we have all been hearing



As I said before the "up to 2 yrs" was (likely) a worst case scenario time appreciation that would apply to the last files done or the 'most complicated'.  Payouts are like HLTA, not everyone will be first and not everyone will be last.

I'm waiting for mine as well, and with taking the cash to help offset costs of building a new home, etc, I sure could use it *right now!* but I'm not the only person in this lineup.  If I gotta wait my turn at Walmart I guess I'll wait my turn for my payout.


----------



## stokerwes

I sent the PIL team an email asking them about my file. I received an email the same day. Very nice person however she stated that they had yet to receive my file??? It was submitted in Feb. I had all the receipts for my package being mailed and the OR receiving it. So off to my OR to see what's going on. They let me know my file was sent to the PIL team in Feb. I asked for a copy of my file as proof. After a few moments I get my file. I then scanned the file and sent it to the PIL team in Ottawa. After about an hour I get another email from Ottawa asking me to have my OR get in touch with the PIL team ASAP. There are some issues with my file and they want to walk the OR at my base through the process so my file can get processed.
This all came about through my email to the PIL team. I was wondering what would have happened had I patiently waited. Would my file still have not been inputted in the Ottawa system? I most likely would not have been aware of this until much later as I am sure they place files that have issues aside to process the straightforward ones. Which mine is 23.8 years Reg Force no broken or reserve time.
I highly encourage pers to get in touch with the PIL team just to ensure that they have in fact received your file.
Hopefully this is just a simple error that can be fixed rather easily. My job was done after I signed the form and submitted it. Even though according to CAF it is still entirely my responsibility. That's another rant all together. >


----------



## AirDet

stokerwes said:
			
		

> I highly encourage pers to get in touch with the PIL team just to ensure that they have in fact received your file.
> Hopefully this is just a simple error that can be fixed rather easily. My job was done after I signed the form and submitted it. Even though according to CAF it is still entirely my responsibility. That's another rant all together. >



I agree totally with Stoker. Here's the PIL Team info. Heather is the team lead and very easy to deal with. 

+DMCA 4 PIL Team@CMP DMCA@Ottawa-Hull

Heather (PIL Team Leader)

If any of you are told what month they are currently working on, I encourage you to post that here for all to see. I'm sure lots of people are interested.

Good luck.


----------



## Greenman

I am not sure how or who you are all speaking to, unless this is new today. Here was my response from my inquiry. 

_Due to the excessive volume of PDF files being sent we are requesting that if you have any more than 5 files to send that you send them via mail.  This will greatly increase the amount of time the audotors have to review files and ultimately decrease wait times.  Your cooperation is greatly appreciated. 

You have reached the DMCA 4 PIL Team.  Due to the high volume of emails we receive, it may take a few days for our staff to respond.  Please be patient your email will be responded to.  Please note that we are unable to provide information regarding the status of your file or date of payment and these requests will go unactioned. Thank-you.

Vous avez rejoint l'équipe DACM 4 du PTLI.  En raison du volume élevé de courriels que nous recevons, il peut prendre quelques jours avant que notre personnel puisse répondre. S'il vous plaît, prière d'être patient votre courriel sera répondu. Veuillez aussi prendre note que nous ne sommes pas en mesure de vous fournir des informations concernant l'état de votre dossier ou la date de paiement, donc ces demandes demeureront sans réponse. Je vous remercie.


DMCA PIL Team Website:

http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmc/engraph/dmca4_pil_team_e.asp

DACM 4 site web de L’équipe du PTLI:

http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmc/frgraph/dmca4_pil_team_f.asp_

Clearly they are working diligently on the packages, and as I suspected do not want to be dealing with every person who opted for the PIL. 

If anyone else has better luck, good on ya.


----------



## AirDet

Greenman said:
			
		

> I am not sure how or who you are all speaking to, unless this is new today. Here was my response from my inquiry.
> 
> _Due to the excessive volume of PDF files ..._


_

Don't worry. That's thier automatic reply. They'll get back to you. They've been excellent to deal with.

Don't forget to post what month they tell you they're currently processing._


----------



## Greenman

Unfortunately I did get a response. The only info offered was that my file arrived. 

The e-mail continued on to elaborate why they would not give details regarding what month they were working on etc. and I am in complete understanding.

Patience is the only way now my friends.


----------



## vandoos283

This is what I received this morning:
Your file has been received

Due to the high volume of files we have received (over 43,000 and counting) we are unable to provide updates as to the status of files.  Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the DMCA 4 PIL Team in Ottawa.  We are working on files that were received in early February.  It is important to note, that files requiring archives access, and/or back and forth to the units for missing substantiating documentation require more time to complete the audit.

PARA 7 of CANFORGEN 241/12 CMP 115/12 122017Z DEC 12
States: NO INFO WILL BE PROVIDED REGARDING THE STATUS OF A MEMBER S FILE OR DATE OF PAYMENT 
Thank you.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

All I really care is whether or not they received my file.


----------



## The_Falcon

Does anyone have any inkling if this PiL cluster.... is effecting severance payouts?


----------



## MikeL

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any inkling if this PiL cluster.... is effecting severance payouts?



What do you mean?

I released in April, and a few weeks ago I received my severance.


----------



## The_Falcon

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> What do you mean?
> 
> I released in April, and a few weeks ago I received my severance.



My release became official in Feb and to date, nothing has shown up at my mailing address back home in Canada, so I was curious if this PiL payout bottleneck is/was having an effect on regular severance.  I would call my old unit, but since it's summer most people will have been tasked out or on leave.


----------



## PuckChaser

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> My release became official in Feb and to date, nothing has shown up at my mailing address back home in Canada, so I was curious if this PiL payout bottleneck is/was having an effect on regular severance.  I would call my old unit, but since it's summer most people will have been tasked out or on leave.



AFAIK, the PiL Team is separate from regular severance payouts. Your delay may be caused by the fact you were a reservist. Anyone currently/formerly in the reserves looks forward to a lifetime of delays in having anything processed.


----------



## MikeL

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> My release became official in Feb and to date, nothing has shown up at my mailing address back home in Canada, so I was curious if this PiL payout bottleneck is/was having an effect on regular severance.  I would call my old unit, but since it's summer most people will have been tasked out or on leave.



Are you in the Sup Res?  If so, you could contact them and perhaps they can help?  If you don't have their contact info I can PM it to you, plus I may still have the phone numbers for the severance and pension people in Ottawa.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Just got word back they have my file.  Whoot whoot


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Got an email reply back they have mine as well, and that they are working on *early Feb* files at this time.


----------



## PuckChaser

Are they able to confirm when they received specific files, or just that they have them?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

They didn't confirm when it was received; I replied back asking.  I do have the email from the POC at my unit from when it was sent in though.


----------



## MasterInstructor

Does the payment show up on a pay statement thats on EMMA? Or is it a separate deposit on its own?


----------



## AirDet

MasterInstructor said:
			
		

> Does the payment show up on a pay statement thats on EMMA? Or is it a separate deposit on its own?



I can't speak for all bases, but mine showed up on my pay statement in the email. (I ticked the email statement box in EMMA). On our base, only the 50%s have seen any PiL because our base chose to send all the requests in at once a month after the last election day. I can tell you that's been a very sore point with members and their families on this base.


----------



## stokerwes

AirDet said:
			
		

> I can't speak for all bases, but mine showed up on my pay statement in the email. (I ticked the email statement box in EMMA). On our base, only the 50%s have seen any PiL because our base chose to send all the requests in at once a month after the last election day. I can tell you that's been a very sore point with members and their families on this base.



Yes they could have sent them bi-weekly as they came in. If a MBR elected on the first day it should have been submitted in short order after that. Not three months later.


----------



## AirDet

stokerwes said:
			
		

> Yes they could have sent them bi-weekly as they came in. If a MBR elected on the first day it should have been submitted in short order after that. Not three months later.



The unit ORs on this base are great but the BOR has no regard for such common sense. Then again it could just be they figured it would allow them to get thru the pile easier.


----------



## kratz

While sharing information online has become an accepted practice. 
Regulations still stand under NDA and QR&Os regarding inciting, or gathering for communal interests.

At CFNOS,  I have witnessed staff and students who have been reminded of what they post online, 
within 30min of their posting….even from a private ISP. Some of the reminders have included orders to amend posts. 
A number of comments, heartfelt and well meaning, through this thread might be considered to be skirting close to the above.


----------



## Halifax Tar

kratz said:
			
		

> While sharing information online has become an accepted practice.
> Regulations still stand under NDA and QR&Os regarding inciting, or gathering for communal interests.
> 
> At CFNOS,  I have witnessed staff and students who have been reminded of what they post online,
> within 30min of their posting….even from a private ISP. Some of the reminders have included orders to amend posts.
> A number of comments, heartfelt and well meaning, through this thread might be considered to be skirting close to the above.



How ?  Is there a level of secrecy or protection to this PIL situation ?  Or do mean at the criticism that has been levelled at some ORs for their handling of the PIL program ?


----------



## AirDet

kratz said:
			
		

> While sharing information online has become an accepted practice.
> Regulations still stand under NDA and QR&Os regarding inciting, or gathering for communal interests.
> 
> At CFNOS,  I have witnessed staff and students who have been reminded of what they post online,
> within 30min of their posting….even from a private ISP. Some of the reminders have included orders to amend posts.
> A number of comments, heartfelt and well meaning, through this thread might be considered to be skirting close to the above.



First off, I miss tanning stations followed by the usual banyan.  :nod:

Secondly, and more to the point, I hadn't realized that stating an already published fact could be considered insighting anything other than understanding. I remember Admiral Buck's speech when he first noticed his OR making rash calls against members. He stated that it was everyone's responsibility to do their part to help each other. Saying "no" just because it's "always been the answer" doesn't mean it's right.
For a naval officer he was an amazing leader. I like to think enough of his converts are still around and can help bring about positive change for our members and their families.
My comment about the BOR holding on to them held no judgement. It was a mere statement of facts they have already publicly stated. How others view their actions are for the individual to determine.
Is it that perhaps, in retrospect those who made this call regret the choice? Personally I hope they don't as we make decisions with the information available to us at the time. I may have made the very same call had I been in that position. We'll never know. It's always easy to evaluate decisions after the events have transpired. As always, if someone makes a logical call based on the available information it should be supported. This is how we develop leaders.


----------



## kratz

I can quote CDS General Mackenzie...and for today's defense, his comments do not hold water.

From your posts 10 June through 13 July, 9 of your 12 posts have dealt with how this PILL has been
handled.

I'm not a fan of beating people over the heads with references, but if needed:




> QR&O 19.10: Combination Forbidden
> No officer or non-commissioned member shall without authority:
> 1.	combine with other members for the purpose of bringing about alterations in existing regulations for the Canadian Forces;
> 2.	sign with other members memorials, petitions or applications relating to the Canadian Forces; or
> 3.	obtain or solicit signatures for memorials, petitions or applications relating to the Canadian Forces.
> 
> QR&O 19.14: Improper Comments
> (1) No officer or non-commissioned member shall make remarks or pass criticism tending to bring a superior into contempt, except as may be necessary for the proper presentation of a grievance under Chapter 7 (Grievances). (15 June 2000)
> (2) No officer or non-commissioned member shall do or say anything that:
> a. if seen or heard by any member of the public, might reflect discredit on the Canadian Forces or on any of its members; or
> b. if seen by, heard by or reported to those under him, might discourage them or render them dissatisfied with their condition or the duties on which they are employed.



While no one person is meant to be mentioned, AirDet asked, so:



> [quote author=AirDet]
> Ref: http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/105269.775.html
> Reply # 789: I agree totally with Stoker. Here's the PIL Team info. Heather is the team lead and very easy to deal with.
> 
> +DMCA 4 PIL Team@CMP DMCA@Ottawa-Hull
> 
> Heather (PIL Team Leader)
> 
> If any of you are told what month they are currently working on, I encourage you to post that here for all to see. I'm sure lots of people are interested.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Ref: http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/105269.775.html
> Reply # 776: It appears that it's your local pay office that releases the payment. This, I assume makes it easier to manage the taxes (if you got CRA permission to direct all of it to your RRSP)
> 
> Be careful posting that opinion here about the bulk submissions. The OLD guard may call you a troll and award you -300 MP points. While it's fact this did happen in many cases they will put the company spin on it and assign blame where none is due. + more
> 
> Ref: http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/105269.775.html
> Reply # 789: …”If any of you are told what month they are currently working on, I encourage you to post that here for all to see. I'm sure lots of people are interested.
> 
> Good luck.”
> 
> Ref: http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/105269.775.html
> Reply 791: Don't worry. That's thier automatic reply. They'll get back to you. They've been excellent to deal with.
> 
> Don't forget to post what month they tell you they're currently processing.
> 
> Ref: http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/105269.800.html
> Reply # 805:
> I can't speak for all bases, but mine showed up on my pay statement in the email. (I ticked the email statement box in EMMA). On our base, only the 50%s have seen any PiL because our base chose to send all the requests in at once a month after the last election day. I can tell you that's been a very sore point with members and their families on this base.


----------



## captloadie

Well, Mike had better shut down this site before any more of us fall afoul of the QR&Os.

Maybe Kratz instead of just quoting the regs, you should also provide the intent of the regulation, interpretted for modern day times.


----------



## Halifax Tar

kratz said:
			
		

> I can quote *CDS General Mackenzie*...and for today's defense, his comments do not hold water.



Who ?  Are you referring to Mr. Lewis Mackenzie a retired Canadian General ?


----------



## AirDet

@Kratz, it's too bad this site doesn't have a thumbs up. Good post. I would challenge relevance of a coupe of your quotes within the modern CF context. As we're both on the same base, I'd be prepared to buy you a timmies and enjoy a debate in person.

You're right in that the majority of my posts are in this thread. Simply put, it's because very little else on this site interests me.

I honestly believe that RMS clerks like every other member go into work with the intent of doing the best they can.


----------



## AirDet

I'm thinking my observations may be better listed and discussed in a separate thread.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Thumbs up/down are Milpoints here


----------



## AirDet

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Thumbs up/down are Milpoints here



Understood, but I'm unable to award points or I would've. Perhaps I'm missing something in the switchology.


----------



## mariomike

AirDet said:
			
		

> Understood, but I'm unable to award points or I would've. Perhaps I'm missing something in the switchology.



This may help.

Q:
 How do I "assess" another member's conduct? 

A:
 Simply click on the  logo above that user's post and you will be taken to a screen where you can classify the user's post, choose how many points to award or deduct, and add some notes. 

Milpoints FAQ
http://army.ca/MilPoints/faq.php


----------



## misratah500

So that's what those points are for


----------



## stokerwes

Just received an email from the PIL team letting me know that my file has been corrected and is entered in the PIL system.
I thanked them and let them know I would be patiently waiting now that I know it is being in the queue for processing.
 :nod:


----------



## Prometheus74

Can anyone confirm if anyone who has elected 100%, recieved their buyout yet?


----------



## ARMY_101

Prometheus74 said:
			
		

> Can anyone confirm if anyone who has elected 100%, recieved their buyout yet?



Yes, as has already been answered...


----------



## Loachman

misratah500 said:
			
		

> So that's what those points are for



And just wait until you cash them out on retirement from this fine Site.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Yes, as has already been answered...



Perhaps you can remind the guy asking.


----------



## Good2Golf

Loachman said:
			
		

> And just wait until you cash them out on retirement from this fine Site.



Could we ask for half our MPs now, and half when we leave?


----------



## kratz

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Could we ask for half our MPs now, and half when we leave?



Can I lock part of my MPs in the Afghan Ops game instead of investing in RRSPs?  ;D


----------



## AirDet

kratz said:
			
		

> Can I lock part of my MPs in the Afghan Ops game instead of investing in RRSPs?  ;D



Yes but you're choice will be irreversible... :bowing: ;D


----------



## Prometheus74

Anyone know what month they are working on?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I just retired.

Let's see how long it takes to show up. 8)


----------



## Eye In The Sky

recceguy said:
			
		

> I just retired.
> 
> Let's see how long it takes to show up. 8)



A small thanks from me for your many years of service.


----------



## AliG

recceguy said:
			
		

> I just retired.
> 
> Let's see how long it takes to show up. 8)



I retired at the beginning of September last; it came in the last week of December.


----------



## George Wallace

AliG said:
			
		

> I retired at the beginning of September last; it came in the last week of December.



Merry Christmas recceguy   ...   ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Merry Christmas recceguy   ...   ;D



Tick, tock 8)


----------



## Arctic Acorn

Just spoke with the cell supposedly handling severance pay for released members. I released in January of this year. My file was audited and sent to them on 22 July. 

The clerk I spoke with informed me that they are currently processing files for members who released in July...of 2012. It could be quite awhile before they get to my month.


----------



## vandoos283

Does anyone know what month the PIL Team is currently working for active members?


----------



## jollyjacktar

0tto Destruct said:
			
		

> Just spoke with the cell supposedly handling severance pay for released members. I released in January of this year. My file was audited and sent to them on 22 July.
> 
> The clerk I spoke with informed me that they are currently processing files for members who released in July...of 2012. It could be quite awhile before they get to my month.



That is not the impression we were given in all the briefs leading up to the election of the PIL.  We were told that yes, there was a separate chain for releasing members which was to be streamlined and fast in delivery and therefore those of the audience who were getting out over the next year or so (which would be you Otto) were better served to let it come at release as it would be quick.  Someone obviously over estimated their performance capabilities.


----------



## Arctic Acorn

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Someone obviously over estimated their performance capabilities.



Because _that's_ never happened before with a project...


----------



## jollyjacktar

:rofl:


----------



## vonGarvin

I put in for my 100% in January, or whenever.  It's being delivered to me on the 15th.


----------



## stokerwes

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I put in for my 100% in January, or whenever.  It's being delivered to me on the 15th.


How do you know this?


----------



## dapaterson

stokerwes said:
			
		

> How do you know this?



Either mental telepathy, or an on-the-ball pay clerk told him, I'd guess.


----------



## AirDet

stokerwes said:
			
		

> How do you know this?



It'll show up on your pay slip if you use EMMA.


----------



## vonGarvin

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Either mental telepathy, or an on-the-ball pay clerk told him, I'd guess.


A little from column A, and a little from column B. ;D

(It was the clerk)


----------



## Sparkplugs

Technoviking said:
			
		

> A little from column A, and a little from column B. ;D
> 
> (It was the clerk)



Pfft, jealous! You guys and your on-the-ball-ness.  ;D


----------



## ArmyGuy99

I was released 5 March 2013.  I got my check about 14wks later.

Call the pension office and leave a message, takes about 2weeks for them to call back.  They can tell you where you are on the list.  For those of us released they can't process it until your severance pay is paid out (12 weeks for me).  Then someone in severance forgot to push a button on the computer so they would have had to wait for the paperwork to catch up.  But I called and ruined it for them. 

Cheers.

Contact info: 
◾E-MAIL: 
observationsoldemilitairesretraites@forces.gc.ca

◾	MAIL:
 National Defence Headquarters
 101 Colonel By Drive
 Ottawa, ON
 K1A 0K2
 Attention: DMPAP/Released Personnel Pay Office 

◾PHONE:
 National Capital Region : 613-971-6006 
 Toll free number: 1-800-773-7705

◾FAX:
 613-971-6177


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Is this phone call for just released members?


----------



## jollyjacktar

The 100%ers here have also already been getting their deposits as of late.  Lots of new motorcycles being purchased from what I've been told.


----------



## ArmyGuy99

Yes that's the contact info for released members.  Just Google CF Pension Plan and the links pop up right away.

I'm not sure what the contact info is for serving members as I'm out.


----------



## Sunnyns

I did not get mine in until the end of March, so I guess I'll be waiting a while.


----------



## AirDet

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> Pfft, jealous! You guys and your on-the-ball-ness.  ;D



I don't know about Greenwood, but in Trenton they didn't submit any of the 100%s until end April.

They should have their money just in time to have a really good Christmas... maybe.


----------



## Sparkplugs

AirDet said:
			
		

> I don't know about Greenwood, but in Trenton they didn't submit any of the 100%s until end April.
> 
> They should have their money just in time to have a really good Christmas... maybe.



That's what I heard too. Little disappointed, not gonna lie, but what can ya do? It was money I never expected to get, so bonus anyway!


----------



## kwade242

Im 100%er as well and I am in Camp Aldershot......Anybody know what month they are worning on?


----------



## eastcoast99

Hello, does anyone on here know when or about when the CSOR in the Halifax Dockyard may have sent PIL election forms in for 100% and is thier anyone here can confirm that they may have received 100% payout. Thanks


----------



## AirDet

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> Hello, does anyone on here know when or about when the CSOR in the Halifax Dockyard may have sent PIL election forms in for 100% and is their anyone here can confirm that they may have received 100% payout. Thanks



I think you'll find that nobody will answer because there's just so much conflicting information out there. We had good intentions in the beginning sharing what info we had but that may have led to more frustration in the end.

I think the best advise is just to ask your friendly clerk if they've heard anything. Other than  that people have been having good replies from the PiL team. You'll see the email earlier  in this thread. They won't tell you any status info but they will let you know when they received your election form from your base.

Sit back, have a beer and continue to dream of what you'll do when it finally arrives.


----------



## eastcoast99

AirDet said:
			
		

> I think you'll find that nobody will answer because there's just so much conflicting information out there. We had good intentions in the beginning sharing what info we had but that may have led to more frustration in the end.
> 
> I think the best advise is just to ask your friendly clerk if they've heard anything. Other than  that people have been having good replies from the PiL team. You'll see the email earlier  in this thread. They won't tell you any status info but they will let you know when they received your election form from your base.
> 
> Sit back, have a beer and continue to dream of what you'll do when it finally arrives.



Thanks, i wasnt aware that the PIL team would offer any info, especially when the received my Election Forms.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

As of Monday this weeek, the team was working on files recieved on 21 Feb.  They have comp0leted over 9K of the 44K total files that have been submitted.


----------



## vonGarvin

And today I received my 100% payout.


----------



## ballz

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> As of Monday this weeek, the team was working on files recieved on 21 Feb.  They have comp0leted over 9K of the 44K total files that have been submitted.



If that means that 35k or so were submitted in March... that's gonna be a long-@$$ wait for everyone who submitted in March. Unfortunate for those who's units took it upon themselves to wait...

I just worked it out that if the PIL team has been working on this since 1 Apr, they are pumping out about 67 per day, that's including holidays, leave, and weekends... I don't know how many people are on the team (they are undermanned of course, just like everything in the CAF), but I'll bet they are going to throw one hell of a party when that last file is complete.


----------



## kwade242

Technoviking said:
			
		

> And today I received my 100% payout.



Where r u located? I am still waiting!!


----------



## AirDet

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> As of Monday this weeek, the team was working on files recieved on 21 Feb.  They have comp0leted over 9K of the 44K total files that have been submitted.



Awesome update. I don't doubt the numbers provided (it sounds realistic) but I'm wondering your source for this info. We've had so many conflicting posts that now people are looking for a reliability factor, if you know what  I mean.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

AirDet........just take my word for it that his sources would be the best available.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

AirDet said:
			
		

> Awesome update. I don't doubt the numbers provided (it sounds realistic) but I'm wondering your source for this info. We've had so many conflicting posts that now people are looking for a reliability factor, if you know what  I mean.



My source is unimpeachable and irrefutable, and I understand that the info above has been issued on the command net in 1 CMBG.


----------



## Loachman

lulu said:
			
		

> Where r u located?



Proper English, please. No MSN-speak.


----------



## GnyHwy

Was there ever any indication to how many % of the 44K were 50%ers, how many were 100%ers (all reg time), and how many were "complex" i.e. mixed or all res time?


----------



## vonGarvin

lulu said:
			
		

> Where r u located? I am still waiting!!



(Reading through the "msn speak", I think you're wondering as to my location.  With this assumption, I make my reply below.)


I'm at a school at CTC in Gagetown.


----------



## AirDet

Thanks for the update, Gents. I have a few guys with wives that are  bugging them daily WRT the PiL. I'll be sure to pass that update. It may not be the information many of them are hoping for but it shows them that some solid progress has been made (almost 25%  complete).

I think the worst part of this is the lack of updates. That tends to lead to frustration. If you could post each time they start a new month I'm sure you'd make a lot of happy people.

Thanks again. You guys  (PPCLI and Bruce M) rock.


----------



## George Wallace

AirDet said:
			
		

> ......... I have a few guys with wives that are  bugging them daily WRT the PiL.



That really brings back memories of Field Pay and why one should not be telling spouses about monies above and beyond normal pay.  There is that other matter of "not spending the money until it is in your bank account" that we also tell people deploying: "Don't go out and buy things with Tour money, until you actually have gone."  It happened to me where I was bumped off Tour, the day before I was to get on the plane.  Telling your spouse that you have a large amount of cash coming (ie. PIL) with no due date is just asking for complications, as witnessed here.


----------



## kratz

[quote author=AirDet]
Awesome update. I don't doubt the numbers provided (it sounds realistic) but I'm wondering your source for this info. We've had so many conflicting posts that now people are looking for a reliability factor, if you know what  I mean.
[/quote]

Observing my roomate conducting the East Coast SDA audits 7 years ago, I agree PPCLI Guy numbers would be bang on.


----------



## AirDet

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Telling your spouse that you have a large amount of cash coming (ie. PIL) with no due date is just asking for complications, as witnessed here.



Totally agree. The thing is they all chat on the "spouses" site. While that can be a good thing I'm also sure it's started a few arguments.  :facepalm:


----------



## NavalMoose

I received an email on June 11 stating that my file had passed first verification and gave me the gross amount. It stated that my file would be sent on to the next stage for final verification and issuing of funds....it's been 2 months since that email, just curious, does this seem the right time frame? Anyone have any info on this, from their experience perhaps?  Thanks


----------



## vandoos283

I received the same email a few days ahead of you (first week of June 12). My file was first sent on 14 Dec 12 which was the first day you could do so....I'm afraid that means it took a very long time for our OR section to send our file to the PIL Team. I'm in Ottawa.


----------



## Sunnyns

George Wallace,  I am a military spouse and former serving member and I can tell you that there are plenty of military members who have already run up credit cards or taken out loans because they are getting this money even though there is no date for anyone as to when they are getting it.  Also a lot of serving members spend their claims WAY before they get it finalized, and yes risk coming back early and having to somehow pay it back.  Don't just blame the wives, the guys do a great job as well on their own.  Anyone pre-spending this money is asking for trouble.  If they are only at 9 k and have not even 25% to go, it will be a long time till us for one sees it.  There is nothing wrong with telling your spouse there is extra money coming in, both should be responsible.  

I am not trying to start up a conversation about spouses knowing what, but this irritated me.  I like this thread and want to see it continue, it's great information to know kind of where they are at.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Even though George may not have said it, he is VERY aware troops can be their own worst enemy.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

He was also not blaming spouses. He was saying the best way to avoid conflict with your spouse is to not even discuss the matter which in my experience is sound advice.


----------



## Sunnyns

I took his not telling the spouse about money coming is as blaming them for possibly pre-spending, I don't see why telling your spouse that extra money coming in would cause a conflict since it shouldn't.

I will leave it at that since a can of worms is starting to open.  Everyone is different and has different experiences.


----------



## eastcoast99

I still dont understand the whole process, My file was sent to Ottawa in Jan, middle of Jan, I was CC'd in the email however, my counterpart has seen his 100% come and gone last month and his was sent end of Jan. I enquired to my OR and they stated if there was a problem with my file, they would of heard and in which they havent. Now I am to believe that they are going in some sort of payout order, as in, more money, longer it takes considering my counterpart had only half the time in for receiving his.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Unless your counter part has the exact same employment history as you date for date etc you can't really compare your file to anyone else's. There are far too many variables to figure out why.


----------



## eastcoast99

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Unless your counter part has the exact same employment history as you date for date etc you can't really compare your file to anyone else's. There are far too many variables to figure out why.



No, he doesnt, he has less time in, I thought how the process was, the PIL team did them as they came in, so in other words, ones that came in on 16th were done before the 17th for example. Maybe sooner or later, someone from the PIL team will see this forum and give us some insight!


----------



## Sunnyns

Your file could have just ended up in a different box then his when sent.  Some units have their clerks divided into last names.  A-K L-Z.


----------



## eastcoast99

Sunnyns said:
			
		

> Your file could have just ended up in a different box then his when sent.  Some units have their clerks divided into last names.  A-K L-Z.



You mean in Ottawa where the PIL team is?


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> No, he doesnt, he has less time in, I thought how the process was, the PIL team did them as they came in, so in other words, ones that came in on 16th were done before the 17th for example. Maybe sooner or later, someone from the PIL team will see this forum and give us some insight!


There are a lot of questions on where everyone's file sits.  I've resolved myself to just be patient and when I get my PIL I get it.  My file was given to my OR on 14 Dec 12 and they emailed my filed to the PIL office on 12 Feb 13.  I know of others that were sent after mine and they recieved a payout, so like I said questions abound.


----------



## eastcoast99

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> There are a lot of questions on where everyone's file sits.  I've resolved myself to just be patient and when I get my PIL I get it.  My file was given to my OR on 14 Dec 12 and they emailed my filed to the PIL office on 12 Feb 13.  I know of others that were sent after mine and they recieved a payout, so like I said questions abound.



Thank you for your insight.


----------



## AirDet

Sunnyns said:
			
		

> Don't just blame the wives, the guys do a great job as well on their own.  Anyone pre-spending this money is asking for trouble.  If they are only at 9 k and have not even 25% to go, it will be a long time till us for one sees it.  There is nothing wrong with telling your spouse there is extra money coming in, both should be responsible.
> 
> I am not trying to start up a conversation about spouses knowing what, but this irritated me.  I like this thread and want to see it continue, it's great information to know kind of where they are at.



SunnyNS,

Don't blame George. It was me that first breeched the spouses comment. My intent was not to point any fingers, nor to say one was better than the other. It was merely to point out that members and spouses don't always translate the things said on Military Admin matters the same. 

I have a rather large section. A few of the members have reported "heated" discussions at home over this money.

I totally agree with your point that both mbrs and spouses are equally capable of driving up debts within the relationship.

George was just relating his personal experience and the lesson he learned. I think we've all done it in one way or another.

The real point is none of us should spend money until it is physically in our bank account. (I know this should be common sense, but there is nothing common about good sense.)

I hope you will forgive my comment as no judgement was attached. It was merely an observation based of feedback from the people I work with.


----------



## Good2Golf

AirDet said:
			
		

> The real point is none of us should spend money until it is physically in our bank account. (I know this should be common sense, but there is nothing common about good sense.)



This!  :nod:

That said, many chickens are counted before the eggs are hatched -- I and no doubt others here have seen folks do things, for example, with TD advances even before they started their travel, so it should come as no surprise that folks may have leaned forward on future money, even though repeated advice is to never count on money until it's in the bank.

Nothing wrong with talking things out between member and spouse, if the intent is to plan the most appropriate use of monies, once they are received.  The reality is, however, that no matter how many times such advice is provided, the "here and (soon to be) now" factor often kicks in and folks commit, before the money is in the bank.

On topic, the issue remains that unforeseen complexities can delay files that people thought would be relatively simple.  For example, I just received a partial-PIL that I thought was a simple <50% case, until it turned out that half my pers file (with the important enrollment info) was missing and without it, things slowed down a 'wee bit'...seeing a number of 100%'ers get paid before me.  Things may not be as simple as folks think, even if paperwork was handed in the day after the election could be made.

Regards
G2G


----------



## Sunnyns

AirDet,  I know the door swings both ways.  My dad who was military was always in debt and yup, I've seen really bad spouses spend the money.

I've seen a few neighbours who have already spent the money, they think it's coming soon when the clerks here sent the paperwork at the end of March.

Sorry if I seemed heated, everyone's experiences make them who they are and I've seen women come into the pay office crying because their spouse did not leave them any money when they left and they had no access to the bank account.  I've also seen wives take some poor bugger to the cleaners when they were gone on tour.  

Anyway, sorry to take away from the main thread. 

Hope the young guys/gals are smart and put a good down payment on a house.


----------



## AirDet

Sunny,

It would seem we share the same opinion. Have a great evening.


----------



## Tibbson

So, how did the process all work for everyone here?  I guess I'm concerned there was an issue.  I completed my forms, went with a colleague and we both dropped ours off at the OR well within the required time frame.  Neither of us have heard a word from anyone yet but a few people in this thread have mentioned having received emails when their files hit Ottawa (or perhaps I read it wrong).

I'm not saying I wondering when we will get it paid out.  I know it will take the time it takes but nobody in my office has mentioned any sort of confirmation email that their files were in Ottawa.  Maybe I read it wrong but would that have been local to their Base or is it standard that the forms get dropped off at the OR and you don't hear anything until they have processed the PIL?

I've heard here there is an email address for general inquiries but I don't want to bog them down with inquiries I can make elsewhere.  Thanks


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> Thank you for your insight.


Not sure if that was sarcasm, but you're welcome?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Sunnyns said:
			
		

> Your file could have just ended up in a different box then his when sent.  Some units have their clerks divided into last names.  A-K L-Z.



That sounds painful.

Oh you mean "cell clerks".  Bloggins does A to Mac, Smith does Mac to P, etc.   ;D


----------



## eastcoast99

Canadian.Trucker said:
			
		

> Not sure if that was sarcasm, but you're welcome?
> [/quo
> 
> It was sincere!


----------



## eastcoast99

So I got some answers today, found out when my file actually made it to Ottawa, apparently it was screwed up the first time when it was sent in January and my OR never found out until end of Feb. It was immediately re-submitted and I have proof now when  Ottawa took possession of it! I also found out as of today, they are working on files they have received 22 Feb. All this has come from a very reliable sources, as well, was told a new message has been drafted on the PIL process, not sure what is in the message though. Now my new question, I wonder how long a cut and dry file takes to do, as in, a file that was opened today, wonder if its a matter of hours or days to process, again, this is on a easy file, no reserve time or in and out time.


----------



## EME101

Latest date status from the PIL office:


> Due to the high volume of files we have received (over 44,000 and counting) we are unable to provide updates as to the status of files.  Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the DMCA 4 PIL Team in Ottawa.  We are working on files that were received in the last week of February.  It is important to note, that files requiring archives access, and/or back and forth to the units for missing substantiating documentation require more time to complete the audit.


----------



## eastcoast99

Has anyone have a guess on how long it takes the PIL Team to complete one file? a easy one that is, straight time, no breaks or reserve time.


----------



## armyvern

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> Has anyone have a guess on how long it takes the PIL Team to complete one file? a easy one that is, straight time, no breaks or reserve time.



I really am beginning to get the feeling that you spent your money already heh?  Relax, it's only yours once you receive it and it is coming.  No amount of questions on this, that or the other thing are going to get it to you one second sooner.  Save yourself an aneurysm --- find something to do with yourself and realize it could be a month or it could be much longer and there isn't a darn thing anyone, anywhere can do about it.


----------



## eastcoast99

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I really am beginning to get the feeling that you spent your money already heh?  Relax, it's only yours once you receive it and it is coming.  No amount of questions on this, that or the other thing are going to get it to you one second sooner.  Save yourself an aneurysm --- find something to do with yourself and realize it could be a month or it could be much longer and there isn't a darn thing anyone, anywhere can do about it.



No, I haven't, but I am thinking that my questions, and only questions seem to be bothering you for some reason. Another thing, you are wrong by saying its only yours once you receive it, We were told , well I was over 20 years ago I would be entitled to this severance package, baring jail etc...as of last March, it stopped making money for me and with my investments over the years..this will be the tip of the iceburg and I am loosing money daily. So once again, if my questions are bothering you, ignore them and carry on!


----------



## ARMY_101

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> Has anyone have a guess on how long it takes the PIL Team to complete one file? a easy one that is, straight time, no breaks or reserve time.



Assuming the home unit has properly organized the files and given the PIL team all the documentation so the service is easily verifiable and the calculations have already been done properly? 10-30 minutes. Of course, that's a huge assumption.


----------



## eastcoast99

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Assuming the home unit has properly organized the files and given the PIL team all the documentation so the service is easily verifiable and the calculations have already been done properly? 10-30 minutes. Of course, that's a huge assumption.



thank you.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Assuming the home unit has properly organized the files and given the PIL team all the documentation so the service is easily verifiable and the calculations have already been done properly? 10-30 minutes.



Really.  

Are you one of the pers who were hired to do this task?  Or do you know someone who is processing the files?  Are you familiar with all of the steps of the process?  Where the source documents are stored and how they are accessed?



> Of course, that's a huge assumption.



Unless you have answers for all of the questions above, then we can definitely agree on the huge assumption part of your post............


----------



## AirDet

I have no idea how valid Army's numbers are but if we examine them we get an idea of how huge this task is. If his lower estimate of 10 minutes is accurate, when multiplied by the 44,000 applications we get 440,000 minutes or 7,333 man hours. Don't forget that's using the shortest timeline. Imagine if he was off by a factor of 2; 14,667 man hours. How about if it takes an hour per file on average? =44,000 man hours or 27 man years.

I don't envy the task set before the team. It's monumental!

Our guys are so much happier after they published where the team is in the process.


----------



## ARMY_101

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Really.
> 
> Are you one of the pers who were hired to do this task?  Or do you know someone who is processing the files?  Are you familiar with all of the steps of the process?  Where the source documents are stored and how they are accessed?
> 
> Unless you have answers for all of the questions above, then we can definitely agree on the huge assumption part of your post............



I do know several Clerks and supervisors working on the PIL team, and yes, the per-file work required when the files are complete, accurate, and straightforward is minimal.


----------



## Sunnyns

Maybe the question should be.  If they are working on the last week of Feb, how long till those guys get theirs?  I know March might be different since it seems like some units waited until the last week of March to send theirs in.


----------



## dapaterson

Sunnyns said:
			
		

> Maybe the question should be.  If they are working on the last week of Feb, how long till those guys get theirs?  I know March might be different since it seems like some units waited until the last week of March to send theirs in.



It depends on the individual, the complexity of their file, whether the clerk handling their file just got answers to a bunch of questions they sent out on difficult files and have returned to finalize those ones...  in short, it will be deposited when it is deposited, and not a day sooner.


----------



## Good2Golf

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> ...We were told , well I was over 20 years ago I would be entitled to this severance package, baring jail etc...as of last March, it stopped making money for me and with my investments over the years..this will be the tip of the iceburg and I am loosing money daily.



I'm certain that ArmyVern's words were intended to reiterate what many here have said...don't count on having it until you have it.  

You have described how you have an entitlement to the severance money.  Prior to the 'payment in lieu', you only had the entitlement once you released, so you would have not yet been entitled to that money.  With the 'payment in lieu', the entitlement to take up to 100% of your earned severance had the caveat stated up front, that processing would take time and that payments would not be immediate.

For you to describe the situation such that you are "loosing (sic) money daily" is overly dramatic.  If you don't think so, then why don't you calculate how much investment interest you are losing, and start preparing a grievance?  Whether you chose to grieve 'losing money' or not will indicate the validity or lack thereof of your complaint of entitlement un-honoured...

Regards
G2G


----------



## eastcoast99

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> I'm certain that ArmyVern's words were intended to reiterate what many here have said...don't count on having it until you have it.
> 
> You have described how you have an entitlement to the severance money.  Prior to the 'payment in lieu', you only had the entitlement once you released, so you would have not yet been entitled to that money.  With the 'payment in lieu', the entitlement to take up to 100% of your earned severance had the caveat stated up front, that processing would take time and that payments would not be immediate.
> 
> For you to describe the situation such that you are "loosing (sic) money daily" is overly dramatic.  If you don't think so, then why don't you calculate how much investment interest you are losing, and start preparing a grievance?  Whether you chose to grieve 'losing money' or not will indicate the validity or lack thereof of your complaint of entitlement un-honoured...
> 
> Regards
> G2G



You are obviously missing my point, and to be honest, I really don't have the time to try and make you understand it....This forum is really starting to look a lot like facebook, too much drama, when you want to state an opinion or ask a question...there is always someone looking to argue. So this is my last post. To the others on here that are sincere and understand a question or opinion , I say Thank You! To the rest, good luck!


----------



## Good2Golf

So what exactly is it you want anyone to tell you?

Yes, you were entitled to the money.

You stated that because you haven't yet received the money to which you are entitled, that you have lost money (investment value).  Are you making a case that you should be compensated?

The fact is that you and I and anyone else who so choses to take part or all of their severance pay is entitled to it.  It just happens that it will take some time to get it.  Some have it already.  Others are still waiting.  Based on the uncertainty of when it will be received, common advice has been to not plan on anything that needs the money by a certain date, for which there can be no assurances as to when the money will be received.

Is there something in that advice with which you do not agree?

Regards
G2G


----------



## eastcoast99

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> So what exactly is it you want anyone to tell you?
> 
> Yes, you were entitled to the money.
> 
> You stated that because you haven't yet received the money to which you are entitled, that you have lost money (investment value).  Are you making a case that you should be compensated?
> 
> The fact is that you and I and anyone else who so choses to take part or all of their severance pay is entitled to it.  It just happens that it will take some time to get it.  Some have it already.  Others are still waiting.  Based on the uncertainty of when it will be received, common advice has been to not plan on anything that needs the money by a certain date, for which there can be no assurances as to when the money will be received.
> 
> Is there something in that advice with which you do not agree?
> 
> Regards
> G2G




I agree.....have a nice day!


----------



## ballz

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> This forum is really starting to look a lot like facebook, too much drama, when you want to state an opinion or ask a question...there is always someone looking to argue.



The best part of "freedom of expression," of course, is that others are free to criticize if they see a weakness in your argument.


----------



## JesseWZ

100% from Esquimalt, dropped my paperwork off right as they began collecting, no broken service, etc and I just received 5ish large this pay.

 8)


----------



## TCM621

How are you guys getting the info on your files? I sent an email to the PiL team and got an automated response saying they are unable to provide updates. I just want to ensure they got it.


----------



## Old EO Tech

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> How are you guys getting the info on your files? I sent an email to the PiL team and got an automated response saying they are unable to provide updates. I just want to ensure they got it.



I got that email too, but the team leader still responded to my query promptly.

Jon


----------



## exgunnertdo

So here is some good news!  My husband's OR got his file back from Ottawa last week.  He's got Reserve and Reg time and is taking 100%.  OR said it could be paid out by end-Sept or mid Oct.  The only glitch in his is that he's been posted, so his old unit has to forward it to his new unit for payment.


No word on mine, I'm a mix of Reserve and Reg and taking 100% too.  But it came from a different OR, so it went to Ottawa at a different time.


----------



## The_Dictat

I am surprised nobody mentionned it before, I just got an official update via a PIL of CFSP Update message dated 291407Z AUG 13:

"1. SINCE THE IMPLEMENTATION OF PIL (PAYMENT IN LIEU) OF CFSP (CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY), THE PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 44000 FILES FOR AUDIT
  2.  AT THIS TIME WE ARE AUDITING THE FILES RECEIVED BY OUR OFFICE ON 22 FEB 13."


----------



## AirDet

The_Dictat said:
			
		

> I am surprised nobody mentionned it before, I just got an official update via a PIL of CFSP Update message dated 291407Z AUG 13:
> 
> "1. SINCE THE IMPLEMENTATION OF PIL (PAYMENT IN LIEU) OF CFSP (CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY), THE PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 44000 FILES FOR AUDIT
> 2.  AT THIS TIME WE ARE AUDITING THE FILES RECEIVED BY OUR OFFICE ON 22 FEB 13."



If you check out page 35 (around 15 Aug) you'll see PPCLI Guy told us that this info was released on the Command net.


----------



## Almostthere

This topic is going dead, everyone has received their payment ? 

For my part im in Valcartier and if the 50% have received their payment the 15th of May, nothing so far for the 100%.

Any news ?


----------



## ARMY_101

Almostthere said:
			
		

> This topic is going dead, everyone has received their payment ?
> 
> For my part im in Valcartier and if the 50% have received their payment the 15th of May, nothing so far for the 100%.
> 
> Any news ?



Yes:



> "1. SINCE THE IMPLEMENTATION OF PIL (PAYMENT IN LIEU) OF CFSP (CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY), THE PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 44000 FILES FOR AUDIT
> 2.  AT THIS TIME WE ARE AUDITING THE FILES RECEIVED BY OUR OFFICE ON 22 FEB 13."


----------



## Almostthere

Yup i am able to go on that site too, but this updated is from the 2013/08/28...So it`s not quite new.


----------



## PMedMoe

Almostthere said:
			
		

> Yup i am able to go on that site too, but this updated is from the 2013/08/28...So it`s not quite new.



Two weeks old.  You want them to provide updates or work on files?   :


----------



## ARMY_101

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Two weeks old.  You want them to provide updates or work on files?   :



Live camera feed of the PIL team it is!  :


----------



## TwoTonShackle

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Live camera feed of the PIL team it is!  :



...and electric shock collars if they spend too much time at the water cooler.   :stars:


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I think the team should be given carrots and not sticks.  It's a monumental task and they are progressing at a good pace.


----------



## Almostthere

Sarcasm ? Really ? My question was legit and I was expecting to inform myself and other peoples who still wonders about it.

Maybe you have too much spare time....


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Almostthere said:
			
		

> Sarcasm ? Really ? My question was legit and I was expecting to inform myself and other peoples who still wonders about it.
> 
> Maybe you have too much spare time....


Maybe you should go use the official chain of command then, instead of relying on faceless people on a non official internet forum, if your trying to update your pers as to the goings on of their payments.


----------



## Sunnyns

Anyone know if they've started working on March yet?
I'm sure the PIL team is under stress and must be happy to see an end in site.


----------



## McG

The_Dictat said:
			
		

> ... I just got an official update via a PIL of CFSP Update message dated 291407Z AUG 13:
> 
> "1. SINCE THE IMPLEMENTATION OF PIL (PAYMENT IN LIEU) OF CFSP (CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY), THE PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 44000 FILES FOR AUDIT
> 2.  AT THIS TIME WE ARE AUDITING THE FILES RECEIVED BY OUR OFFICE ON 22 FEB 13."


44000 files for audit.  How many had been received by 22 Feb (or, what percentage of the total are they at)?
The information is not really there to make an apples to apples comparison.


----------



## Sunnyns

I've seen that post, I was only asking if anyone knew what week they are one.  I am going to assume that the last couple of weeks they are going to be swamped.  The OR at our base waited till the last week to submit their stuff.


----------



## Spring_bok

How does Revenue Canada get through all those tax returns and still manage to get my return back to me in less than 3 weeks.


----------



## George Wallace

Spring_bok said:
			
		

> How does Revenue Canada get through all those tax returns and still manage to get my return back to me in less than 3 weeks.



Because they have programs that pick out only the relevant entries on your tax forms.  Now why didn't you ask about Canada Pensions, or some other organization that you want to get money back from......a university, Ontario Hydro,  the bank......???


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Sunnyns said:
			
		

> I've seen that post, I was only asking if anyone knew what week they are one.  I am going to assume that the last couple of weeks they are going to be swamped.  The OR at our base waited till the last week to submit their stuff.



Why not use your real name and see how good RevCan is about checking tax returns ;D


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

Sent an email to the PIL team today, was very pleasantly surprised to get a phone call from Heather (the team leader).  She said that they are now working on files received on the 27th of Feb 2013, so for those of you that have emails stating when your file was sent to Ottawa, keep in mind it might be a little off (as mine stated it was submitted on 12 Feb 13).

They are working hard though.


----------



## NavalMoose

So it looks like it is taking 6 months plus.  I put mine in to my OR in January, got the magical email in June, so it looks like Christmas or beyond. Not impressed with the timeline from my OR to PIL team.  I am sure they are working hard, maybe there should have been more of them.


----------



## PuckChaser

NavalMoose said:
			
		

> So it looks like it is taking 6 months plus.  I put mine in to my OR in January, got the magical email in June, so it looks like Christmas or beyond. Not impressed with the timeline from my OR to PIL team.  I am sure they are working hard, maybe there should have been more of them.



Keep in mind there are probably a lot of units who dumped files at the deadline, or filed everyone together so it's going to bog the system down when they get closer to that deadline.


----------



## Prometheus74

They are making progress.  The PIL Team website:

http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmc/engraph/DMCA4_PIL_Team_e.asp

It was updated on the 17th and said:
"The PIL Team has been fully operational for some months now and has received over 44,600 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 11,642 files comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.
Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 26 February 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in."


----------



## Tibbson

NavalMoose said:
			
		

> So it looks like it is taking 6 months plus.  I put mine in to my OR in January, got the magical email in June, so it looks like Christmas or beyond. Not impressed with the timeline from my OR to PIL team.  I am sure they are working hard, maybe there should have been more of them.



What is meant by "got the magical email in June"?  I know my forms were dropped off at the OR but I've never received any sort of follow up email or anything.   I had just assumed they were sent off with everyone else's when the OR sent them in.  I don't really give it all that much thought and just figured I'd hear something when I heard but I'm wondering if I should be concerned.


----------



## DAA

Had a member of our unit who is on Class B who elected Pil and it looks like he just might get the big shaft......

He applied for Pil and provided his letter from CRA for the Tax Waiver.  His Pil was processed/authorized and when his supporting pay office applied it to his pay, they did it as "taxable income".  The tax hit was over $4K and on top of that, if they can't reverse the transaction, he gets the double wammy...........it will push him into the next "tax bracket" which means everything he earns this year, will have a 26% Federal Tax rate as opposed to a 22% rate because his income will exceed the CRA threshold ($87,123).


----------



## ARMY_101

DAA said:
			
		

> Had a member of our unit who is on Class B who elected Pil and it looks like he just might get the big shaft......
> 
> He applied for Pil and provided his letter from CRA for the Tax Waiver.  His Pil was processed/authorized and when his supporting pay office applied it to his pay, they did it as "taxable income".  The tax hit was over $4K and on top of that, if they can't reverse the transaction, he gets the double wammy...........it will push him into the next "tax bracket" which means everything he earns this year, will have a 26% Federal Tax rate as opposed to a 22% rate because his income will exceed the CRA threshold ($87,123).



There seem to be a few of those waivers that must have gotten lost en route...


----------



## SupersonicMax

DAA,

Only the part above $87,123 will be taxed at 26%.  Everything else ($87,123 and below) will be taxed at 22%...


----------



## The_Dictat

Got word that a bunch in Montreal are getting their PILs on their next pay or/ mid-october.


----------



## DAA

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> DAA,
> 
> Only the part above $87,123 will be taxed at 26%.  Everything else ($87,123 and below) will be taxed at 22%...



Yes, you are correct.  Sorry, my bad......


----------



## once a gunner

so I  rec'd my PiL.  I had submitted on the day we were allowed to submit date fails my memory now, my unit in Germany sent them in as we submitted them.  I had reserve time and broken service and reg F time and took the 100% option.  I rec'd an email from the clerk in CFSU(E) asking which bank account I'd like my PiL deposited to, then the next day i rec'd an email from the clerk in the BOR in North Bay informing me my PiL would be deposited in the bank at the end of the month.  Didn't think anything of it.  Couple days ago i check my bank online and saw my pil was DFT'd to my account.  Yesterday I got a phone call to come over to the BOR.  Turns out I was DFT'd my PiL and it went in my pay guide...so I was going to get it twice! but now they recalled my end month pay so I don't receive it twice...but i also have to wait a couple of days for a manual DFT of my end month pay....no biggie, just glad i rec'd it...one way or another!


----------



## PPCLI Guy

I am a 100%er with previous PRes service.  My file was rec'd by the PIL office on 1 Mar.  The full amount has just arrived on my Pay Guide for payment on 15 Oct.

It sounds like they are making great progress.


----------



## eastcoast99

Congrats...wonder what day they are working on now, not sure how long it takes from the team sending your file to your OR to process it to your pay.


----------



## PuckChaser

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> Congrats...wonder what day they are working on now, not sure how long it takes from the team sending your file to your OR to process it to your pay.



They're at least on or past 1 Mar 13, which should mean a large number of files are complete. Unless of course lots of units dumped files all on the last day (It was 15 Mar 13, correct?), then they're about to hit the backlog wall.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I'd say the later


----------



## Almostthere

Correct me if im wrong, but from what i have read forms as to be fill and received at you`re OR unit no later than 28 March 2013 at 23H59. After that OR had until the 15 of April to send them to PIL team in Ottawa.

Base on the last update, 2013/09/17,PIL teams as review 11 642 files and has received over 44 600, so looks like at least 30 000 files left for audit. My guess is that pretty much all OR waited this the last week or so to send them...

New updates from this morning, Audits have been completed on 15,246 files and has received over 45,000 files to be audited, looks like they are still receiving files....Im starting to think that all info are pretty much BS


----------



## EME101

New update on the PIL site.
"The PIL Team has been fully operational for some months now and has received over 45,000 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 15,246 files comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 5 March 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in."


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Any word on the rumour about being bumped to the front of the line on retirement?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Looks like Almostthere was spot on.


----------



## Sunnyns

WOW, that's about 1200 files a week.  Those poor clerks must be going blind.


----------



## dapaterson

A file with only Reg F service is very straightforward to review & audit.  Similarly, a file with exclusively Res F service is straightforward, but not quite as simple as a Reg F file.

The files with a mix of both are more complex, and care is needed to ensure no time gets counted twice  For example, a Reservist with 12 years in joins the Regs, and received RFRG for those 12 years, and now claims PiL; those 12 years must be deducted from the calculation, but any fractional time left over in their Res service would be counted.


----------



## AirDet

One third complete! That's quite a milestone for the team. At this rate just over half will have their cash in time for Christmas. Hopefully Santa treats the team well this Christmas.


----------



## Quirky

I really hope I get mine before tax season this year for RRSP's.  :-X


----------



## PuckChaser

Going to be fun to see all the people who took over $10,000 have to file another letter to CRA for next tax year if they don't get it done by 31 Dec 13, and then get it up to PIL team to withhold tax at source. Part of the reason why I elected just under $10,000, no need for letters every year.


----------



## eastcoast99

I thought it was your unit OR that enters the PIL into your pay, thus taking off the tax and not the PIL team in Ottawa.  One member where i work was told yesterday that his 100% was authorized to be payed via phone call for OR and not email and will show up in mid october pay but its not on his pay guide.


----------



## Almostthere

From what i have seen so far, but i only know 2 peoples who has received PLI, the amount will show on you`re pay guide.


----------



## ARMY_101

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> I thought it was your unit OR that enters the PIL into your pay, thus taking off the tax and not the PIL team in Ottawa.  One member where i work was told yesterday that his 100% was authorized to be payed via phone call for OR and not email and will show up in mid october pay but its not on his pay guide.



It's entered by RPPO, not the unit's Clerks.


----------



## TCM621

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't they state that this would be complete by the end of the year? May be time to send some clerks on TD to help out.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

They said it may take up to 3 years.


----------



## Almostthere

I dont see that happens, so far in close to 6 months they did little bit more than 15000 files, huge works, and with the amounts of files left to work on, my guess is that if you are in the last one  you`re file might be audit in Feb/march 2014.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Agreed but I think that was their initial assessment.


----------



## ARMY_101

The PIL team Clerks were given contracts until 17 November 2014, so it's safe to assume they think their work will take until ~ October 2014, with an extra month left for problem files.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Almostthere said:
			
		

> From what i have seen so far, but i only know 2 peoples who has received PLI, the amount will show on you`re pay guide.



That has to be the hardest, single sentence to read, that has been posted here in some time.

Please pay attention to what, and how, you are writing things to post.


----------



## fake penguin

I found this online http://www.familyforce.ca/sites/Edmonton/EN/Documents/The%20Bottom%20Line%20on%20Severance%20PayV4.pdf. It says if a part-time soldier who was continuously enrolled and worked 60 days a year for 8 years will now earn 8 years' worth of benefits: 7 days of pay x 8 years. So if you have 5 years in but have less then 60 days in the last year because of school, you only get paid for 4 years?


----------



## dapaterson

No.  For a reservist with only Reserve service, the formula to determine entiltlement is "Total enrolled time - NES time - ED&T time (except for MATA/PATA)".  (Enrolled time, of course, limited to the cut-off date for CFSP).  Fractional years are paid.

Days worked is irrelevant.


----------



## ARMY_101

dapaterson said:
			
		

> No.  For a reservist with only Reserve service, the formula to determine entiltlement is "Total enrolled time - NES time - ED&T time (except for MATA/PATA)".  (Enrolled time, of course, limited to the cut-off date for CFSP).  Fractional years are paid.
> 
> Days worked is irrelevant.



Hmm... My original post disappeared?  :-\

Unfortunately this means the guy who enrolled in 2008 and who attends every parade night and weekend exercise is paid the same as the guy who enrolled in 2008, who attends one parade night per month, and doesn't know what an exercise is.


----------



## George Wallace

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> The PIL team Clerks were given contracts until 17 November 2014, so it's safe to assume they think their work will take until ~ October 2014, with an extra month left for problem files.



Don't fret your little heart out over the length of their SOU's.  That is no indication as to the end date of that task.  They can not be hired for a period that exceeds more than three years at a time.  If they have been hired for a period that ends on 17 November 2014, that does not mean the end of that tasking.  It only means that for that task, they will have to be hired under a new SOU for another fixed period that can not exceed three years.


----------



## George Wallace

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Hmm... My original post disappeared?  :-\
> 
> Unfortunately this means the guy who enrolled in 2008 and who attends every parade night and weekend exercise is paid the same as the guy who enrolled in 2008, who attends one parade night per month, and doesn't know what an exercise is.



So?  Do you work every minute, of every day, of every year?   You are trying to compare apples to oranges.  Get over it.


----------



## dapaterson

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> Hmm... My original post disappeared?  :-\
> 
> Unfortunately this means the guy who enrolled in 2008 and who attends every parade night and weekend exercise is paid the same as the guy who enrolled in 2008, who attends one parade night per month, and doesn't know what an exercise is.



Yes.  It's imperfect.  Because the admin work required to do otherwise would have been immense and employed an elevated level of subjectivity.

Besides, the chain of command has tools to cull the herds of the "once a month wonders" in the Reserves.  That they may choose not to employ them is another issue.


----------



## ARMY_101

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Don't fret your little heart out over the length of their SOU's.  That is no indication as to the end date of that task.  They can not be hired for a period that exceeds more than three years at a time.  If they have been hired for a period that ends on 17 November 2014, that does not mean the end of that tasking.  It only means that for that task, they will have to be hired under a new SOU for another fixed period that can not exceed three years.



They were hired in December 2012. Seems a little odd to give them 23-month contracts if the November 2014 end date wasn't the target they had in mind, doesn't it?


----------



## George Wallace

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> They were hired in December 2012. Seems a little odd to give them 23-month contracts if the November 2014 end date wasn't the target they had in mind, doesn't it?



Now that is a question you can ask the "Bean Counters".  There often is no rhyme, nor reason, it seems, to some of their operating procedures.    ;D


----------



## GAP

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> They were hired in December 2012. Seems a little odd to give them 23-month contracts if the November 2014 end date wasn't the target they had in mind, doesn't it?





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now that is a question you can ask the "Bean Counters".  There often is no rhyme, nor reason, it seems, to some of their operating procedures.    ;D



Why lock yourself into a 3 year contract when you can give a contract for 18 months, then keep extending in 3 or 6 month increments?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

ARMY_101 said:
			
		

> They were hired in December 2012. Seems a little odd to give them 23-month contracts if the November 2014 end date wasn't the target they had in mind, doesn't it?



Why are you even concerned with this?

I mean, who really cares, so long as they're getting the job done?


----------



## George Wallace

GAP said:
			
		

> Why lock yourself into a 3 year contract when you can give a contract for 18 months, then keep extending in 3 or 6 month increments?



Anything under 180 days Class B exempts you from Medical and Dental coverage by the CAF. 








.......................and the paperwork involved in constantly renewing SOU's....(often at the very last minute, resulting in really qualified and ambitious individuals finding a better, higher paying job elsewhere)....  ;D


----------



## Monsoon

GAP said:
			
		

> Why lock yourself into a 3 year contract when you can give a contract for 18 months, then keep extending in 3 or 6 month increments?


So, what you're saying is that you think this process would have been made a whole lot more efficient _by giving the people running it an incentive to take as long as possible doing it_? That's Incentives 101.


----------



## Stoker

Well received my severance which was taxed. No mention of it in my pay statement and it seems was lumped into my mid month pay as well.


----------



## eastcoast99

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Well received my severance which was taxed. No mention of it in my pay statement and it seems was lumped into my mid month pay as well.




Did you put the tax exemption form from CRA with it? Also, do you know when your paperwork hit Ottawa?


----------



## Stoker

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> Did you put the tax exemption form from CRA with it? Also, do you know when your paperwork hit Ottawa?



I did initially but my severance buy back wiped out my what room I had, forcing me to pull my letter and be taxed. I have no idea when it went in, but other naval reserves in Halifax is starting to get theirs.


----------



## jollyjacktar

More of the 100%ers are seeing the money come in this month at my unit.  I'm happy for them as they seem happy.


----------



## fake penguin

dapaterson said:
			
		

> No.  For a reservist with only Reserve service, the formula to determine entiltlement is "Total enrolled time - NES time - ED&T time (except for MATA/PATA)".  (Enrolled time, of course, limited to the cut-off date for CFSP).  Fractional years are paid.
> 
> Days worked is irrelevant.



Thanks dapaterson.


----------



## med711

Has there been any other recent updates?  Curious as I submitted first week in March so it's nice to hear that they are getting close.


Sorry I don't want to be a pain with my questions it is just that I am away with little admin support and no DWAN access so I can't check out DMCA's site for any potential update -- just curious if anyone has any new news!

thanks!


----------



## Almostthere

Base on the last update, 15-10-2013, they are working on files received on 5 March 2013..

Also I dont want to ruin your day but the fact that you submit you`re paper in the first week of March mean that they have received you`re file . Its all about when your OR send it.. 

You can, if you want, send an email here. +DMCA 4 PIL Team@CMP DMCA@Ottawa-Hull and they can tell you if they have you`re file in hands.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Almostthere said:
			
		

> Base on the last update, 15-10-2013, they are working on files received on 5 March 2013..
> 
> Also I dont want to ruin your day but the fact that you submit you`re paper in the first week of March mean that they have received you`re file . Its all about when your OR send it..
> 
> You can, if you want, send an email here. +DMCA 4 PIL Team@CMP DMCA@Ottawa-Hull and they can tell you if they have you`re file in hands.



Anyone got a civvie email address for them? Not all of us have access to the DIN.


----------



## eastcoast99

recceguy said:
			
		

> Anyone got a civvie email address for them? Not all of us have access to the DIN.



They last stated to me that every two weeks the website would be updated, the last update was two weeks on the 7th October  ago with the same numbers as appears today with last weeks date.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> They last stated to me that every two weeks the website would be updated, the last update was two weeks on the 7th October  ago with the same numbers as appears today with last weeks date.



Here, I'll rephrase that last part for you.

*"Not all of us have access to the DIN."*


----------



## eastcoast99

recceguy said:
			
		

> Here, I'll rephrase that last part for you.
> 
> *"Not all of us have access to the DIN."*



I am so sorry!, I hit the wrong quote, I hit yours by mistake, sure hope it didn't put you out to much!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Maybe if someone is at work they can look up that mailbox in the GAL and see if there is an associated SMTP email address.  And PM it to him.   :nod:


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Maybe if someone is at work they can look up that mailbox in the GAL and see if there is an associated SMTP email address.  And PM it to him.   :nod:



Already done, but thanks.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> I am so sorry!, I hit the wrong quote, I hit yours by mistake, sure hope it didn't put you out to much!



Nope, I just consider the source.



			
				eastcoast99 said:
			
		

> You are obviously missing my point, and to be honest, I really don't have the time to try and make you understand it....This forum is really starting to look a lot like facebook, too much drama, when you want to state an opinion or ask a question...there is always someone looking to argue.* So this is my last post.* To the others on here that are sincere and understand a question or opinion , I say Thank You! To the rest, good luck!


----------



## eastcoast99

recceguy said:
			
		

> Nope, I just consider the source.



Changed my mind, I am more mature then playing your game, I love this site!


----------



## med711

Almostthere said:
			
		

> Base on the last update, 15-10-2013, they are working on files received on 5 March 2013..
> 
> Also I dont want to ruin your day but the fact that you submit you`re paper in the first week of March mean that they have received you`re file . Its all about when your OR send it..
> 
> You can, if you want, send an email here. +DMCA 4 PIL Team@CMP DMCA@Ottawa-Hull and they can tell you if they have you`re file in hands.



Thanks Almost there appreciate the update - yes I realize that there is a delay between the OR and Ottawa (luckily files at ASU Toronto were sent as mbrs filled them out and were not left to collect like in other units) 

I appreciate the email address and would have gone directly to the sources however like I mentioned I have no DWAN access at this time -- oh well it will be a nice surprise when it happens however i had hoped it would be before the end of the year only because i filled out all the tax forms and that was part of my original delay in submitting my PIL


----------



## Almostthere

There you go !!

dmca-pil_of_cfsp-dacm-ptl_de_idfc@forces.gc.ca


----------



## med711

thank you Chtulhu - very kind!!

It is not easy not having DWAN access even trying to get info on the xmas flight for families was a challenge today that now requires me to call the Adj of the movement company in Trenton - seems some CF mbrs are just isolent and lazy!

thanks again!


----------



## Gramps

med711 said:
			
		

> thank you Chtulhu - very kind!!
> 
> It is not easy not having DWAN access even trying to get info on the xmas flight for families was a challenge today that now requires me to call the Adj of the movement company in Trenton - seems some CF mbrs are just isolent and lazy!
> 
> thanks again!



If you need info on these flights, ask me via PM and I can help you out.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Gramps said:
			
		

> If you need info on these flights, ask me via PM and I can help you out.



Always helping out those in need...just like The Littlest Hobo!   ;D


----------



## Gramps

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Always helping out those in need...just like The Littlest Hobo!   ;D



Well, you know me. Theres a voice that keeps on calling me, down the road that's where I'll always be............


----------



## med711

Thanks everyone I actually got the flight info from a colleagues who's deployed - but did speak to someone in Trenton today about the staff and how insolent they were.   The individual I spoke to was great and are going to address the staff issues.

As for the PIL thankfully I emailed Ottawa -- turns out my sheet was lost and never made it to Ottawa despite the OR saying it was sent.  Now they have to make sure only my election was lost and not the whole lot that was sent at the same time...  Oh well...nothing can be done about it now...I believe I am now file #46704


----------



## stokerwes

med711 said:
			
		

> As for the PIL thankfully I emailed Ottawa -- turns out my sheet was lost and never made it to Ottawa despite the OR saying it was sent.  Now they have to make sure only my election was lost and not the whole lot that was sent at the same time...  Oh well...nothing can be done about it now...I believe I am now file #46704


Same thing happened to me, I wonder how far back that will but us? It will come eventually now though as its at least in their system.
Here's hoping its sooner rather than later.


----------



## upandatom

It seems in the St. Jean area full payouts have been coming out since the 31 of September (well at least for one of my guys last name F), from what our clerks say it looks like St. Jean is doing it alphabetically and as of the 15th people with M from my unit were getting it, only deposited with your pay, after recieving an email from IDFC saying how much etc.


----------



## dapaterson

When does September have 31 days?


----------



## Almostthere

upandatom said:
			
		

> It seems in the St. Jean area full payouts have been coming out since the 31 of September (well at least for one of my guys last name F), from what our clerks say it looks like St. Jean is doing it alphabetically and as of the 15th people with M from my unit were getting it, only deposited with your pay, after recieving an email from IDFC saying how much etc.



I wonder if PIL teams send an email to everyone that as been paid out ? Or is it just a random thing ?
Because it is the first time I hear about that.


----------



## Almostthere

Last Modified: 2013-10-29 

The PIL Team has been fully operational for some months now and has received over 45,000 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 18,353 files comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Currently the team is auditing files received on 11 March 2013

The last update was from the 2013-10-15 and audits on files was at 15,246, so it is like 1500 files per week, average.


----------



## EME101

Bad news for that estimate.  That update was actually Oct 7 at 15,246.  October 15 update was just a link to Windows 7 SOP. So they averaged approx 1000 a week.


----------



## Almostthere

Well my bad.

So +/- 27 000 files left, at a +/- 1000 per week..... 27 weeks before files # 45 000 gets audit


----------



## Tibbson

Chtulhu said:
			
		

> Well my bad.
> 
> So +/- 27 000 files left, at a +/- 1000 per week..... 27 weeks before files # 45 000 gets audit



Its a huge job for sure and one I wouldn't want to do.  With that having been said it's hard to sit back and wait but thats what needs to be done.  I feel like I'm a kid again trying to wait patiently until Santa comes.  lol


----------



## GnyHwy

1000 a week?  Unacceptable!!!  What are they doing taking breaks, eating and/or sleeping? 

Let's see... 1000/wk/5/day/wk/8hr/day/60min/hr= 0.42/min or 2min 23sec/file.  Unacceptable!!!

I am sure then can do better.  Who is writing their PER?


----------



## Almostthere

Or we can try to calculate it this way...

Since the start of the pay out, 1st April, we had close to 150 working days.

18353 files complete / 150 = 122 files per day / 610 files per weeks...

OMG it`s worst that way.... delete, delete... 

Wonders how many people are on that team, i hope that the dude is not alone


----------



## Sunnyns

Oh this is funny.

Tibbson said it so well, it's like kids counting the days till Christmas making their wish lists months in advance.

 ;D


----------



## dapaterson

Chtulhu said:
			
		

> Or we can try to calculate it this way...
> 
> Since the start of the pay out, 1st April, we had close to 150 working days.
> 
> 18353 files complete / 150 = 122 files per day / 610 files per weeks...
> 
> OMG it`s worst that way.... delete, delete...
> 
> Wonders how many people are on that team, i hope that the dude is not alone



Or, better yet, 18353 complete; none of them are mine; therefore mine will never be done.


----------



## Transporter

I opted for 100% payout with a letter from CRA allowing for non-deduction of income tax. I plan to contribute 100% of it to a spousal RRSP as I have the unused contribution room to do this. After 3 calendar years, my wife can start taking the money out of her RRSP and declare it as her income (assuming no other contributions made in the interim). Given she does not work, as long as she does not take out more than the maximum allowable before having to pay income tax, which varies by province but is usually @ 10K, I can get all my severance tax-free (plus whatever amount the RRSP has grown by in that time). Options for the funds thereafter include mortgage pay-down, kid's post-secondary education, top-up TFSA (withdrawls from which don't count as taxable income), big ass boat, etc. This is 100% legal per CRA rules. Only downside is having to wait for the money, but if time is on your side needs-wise, I see it as a good way to go.

The 31 Dec 13 date is significant to my plan.  If I get my PiL by 31 Dec, my wife can start taking funds out of her RRSP as early as 1 Jan 2016. If I get it after 31 Dec, we have to wait another calendar year, so funds can't be taken out until 1 Jan 2017 at the earliest (not without my having to declare it as income anyway).

I'm starting to get the feeling that 31 Dec will come and go without me seeing my PiL. Does anyone know if the PiL team accepts "gratuities" for all their hard work?


----------



## SupersonicMax

You also lose that contribution room when you cash out.


----------



## Transporter

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You also lose that contribution room when you cash out.


  That is correct. Not too worried about that though as there are other equally-effective places to put the money for investment purposes. For example, TFSA's can offer certain benefits over RRSPs, particularly when you start taking money out in retirement. Either way, without having to pay any income tax on it, I'm getting a far better rate of return... but I get your point.


----------



## Almostthere

I'm starting to get the feeling that 31 Dec will come and go without me seeing my PiL. Does anyone know if the PiL team accepts "gratuities" for all their hard work?  

You gotta believe my friend ....Believe.


----------



## DrSize

I elected for 100% and I received mine with the end of Oct pay.  I passed it to my OR the first day possible in Dec 12 but they held the files and didn't send until 22 Feb 13.  I was notified around mid Oct that I would be receiving it.....hope this helps for timelines


----------



## vandoos283

Thats pretty good, I also submitted my form on the first day here in Ottawa.....My file was then sent to the PIL Team in June...


----------



## Almostthere

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> Thats pretty good, I also submitted my form on the first day here in Ottawa.....My file was then sent to the PIL Team in June...



They give us time frame, obviously some OR didnt follow them.

How did you find out youre file was send in June ?


----------



## Transporter

I submitted mine in late Feb as I needed to wait for my CRA letter but not sure when my OR sent it upwards. I'm guessing they probably had it for at least several weeks after that.


----------



## vandoos283

Chtulhu said:
			
		

> They give us time frame, obviously some OR didnt follow them.
> 
> How did you find out youre file was send in June ?



I received a email from the PIL Team informing me my file was received, this was at the end of June.


----------



## TCM621

I wish I knew when my stuff went in. They are on 11 Mar already and my stuff what signed and submitted to the orderly room before then. I hate not knowing. I wonder at what point one can inquire about problems.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

You can ask.  I did.  I said I wasn't concerned if it was processed or not just curious if they had it at all.


----------



## Almostthere

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> I received a email from the PIL Team informing me my file was received, this was at the end of June.



Ik now that PIL teams received my file, I send an email to the teams, but never in the whole process I have received something from them with any info from my case. My guess is that their is no standard in that process.


----------



## Almostthere

Chtulhu said:
			
		

> Ik now that PIL teams received my file, I send an email to the teams, but never in the whole process I have received something from them with any info from my case. My guess is that their is no standard in that process.



I wish, and im sure im not alone, to know how exactly does it work. I mean the whole process, how are they doing a file...

Anybody here that as received their payout can tell me/us how the process when for them, step by step  

Im asking that cause i have been reading a lots of things here, people receiving email from the teams, people who dont and money just show up on their accounts, amounts show up on EMAA and people who dont .

For my part the only thing i know for sure is that the teams got my files, i dont know when they got it because on reply to my mail i got from them the team leader told me that they cant tell me that informations....


----------



## George Wallace

Chtulhu

Do you think that you are somehow special?  Your sending emails to the PIL team to query your personal situation is only adding to their workload and deflecting them from that work.  Read what is posted here and find the answers to the questions you just posed, and rest assured that when they finally do get to your file, you will get your money.  Until such time, do not make any plans to spend money that you do not have in your pocket.


----------



## Almostthere

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Chtulhu
> 
> Do you think that you are somehow special?  Your sending emails to the PIL team to query your personal situation is only adding to their workload and deflecting them from that work.  Read what is posted here and find the answers to the questions you just posed, and rest assured that when they finally do get to your file, you will get your money.  Until such time, do not make any plans to spend money that you do not have in your pocket.



My bad. I was under the impressions that forum where a place to give and finds informations about differents matters. Be assure "My Lord" that asking a questions that myself and 99% of peoples that are wandering about it will never happen again, and that if i have informations on that subject i will keep them to myself...


----------



## George Wallace

Chtulhu said:
			
		

> My bad. I was under the impressions that forum where a place to give and finds informations about differents matters. Be assure "My Lord" that asking a questions that myself and 99% of peoples that are wandering about it will never happen again, and that if i have informations on that subject i will keep them to myself...



 :


What part of:





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Chtulhu
> 
> .........  Read what is posted here and find the answers to the questions you just posed, and rest assured that when they finally do get to your file, you will get your money.  ........



did you not understand?


----------



## Almostthere

...Like i said and write on my other messages, I HAVE read the forum and find alot of differents informations on how the process when for peoples that have received payouts.

My goal was just to try to make the process clear for peoples that are still wandering about that issues.

But thanks for the help and nevermind, i have found the informations needed from 4 differents OR here on base and they all told me the same, so the process is now clear as water....

Again thank you for youre help on that matters......


----------



## George Wallace

Chtulhu said:
			
		

> ...Like i said and write on my other messages, I HAVE read the forum and find alot of differents informations on how the process when for peoples that have received payouts.
> 
> My goal was just to try to make the process clear for peoples that are still wandering about that issues.



You do realize that each and everyone posting has a different set of circumstances and therefore will not have the same answers reference the PIL.  THERE IS NO ONE ANSWER FITS ALL.  You, yourself, took FIVE (5) visits to FIVE (5) DIFFERENT  ORDERLY ROOMS to get an answer that made you happy.  Hopefully it was a correct one.  Not everyone joined on the same day as you, and are making a career exactly the same as you.  Everyone will be different, and will have different issues.

This thread is a GUIDE as to what may possibly lead you to YOUR particular answers.


----------



## Ottawabound

Chtulhu said:
			
		

> ...Like i said and write on my other messages, I HAVE read the forum and find alot of differents informations on how the process when for peoples that have received payouts.
> 
> My goal was just to try to make the process clear for peoples that are still wandering about that issues.
> 
> But thanks for the help and nevermind, i have found the informations needed from 4 differents OR here on base and they all told me the same, so the process is now clear as water....
> 
> Again thank you for youre help on that matters......



1. English please.

2. I have the top-secret never-before-seen answer to your question on what the process is for PIL payments. For ease of learning, this process is broken down into three squads:

*Squad one:* on squad one, your Orderly Room gathered paperwork into neat and organized files and sent said files to Ottawa.

*Squad two:* on squad two, the Ottawa PIL team received said files, performed a file audit, and sent the results of said audit for payment.

*Squad three:* on squad three, the Payments Processing Office received said audit results from the Ottawa PIL team and paid out monies in accordance with said file audit.

Are there any questions with this process?


----------



## Almostthere

Ottawabound said:
			
		

> 1. English please.
> 
> 2. I have the top-secret never-before-seen answer to your question on what the process is for PIL payments. For ease of learning, this process is broken down into three squads:
> 
> *Squad one:* on squad one, your Orderly Room gathered paperwork into neat and organized files and sent said files to Ottawa.
> 
> *Squad two:* on squad two, the Ottawa PIL team received said files, performed a file audit, and sent the results of said audit for payment.
> 
> *Squad three:* on squad three, the Payments Processing Office received said audit results from the Ottawa PIL team and paid out monies in accordance with said file audit.
> 
> Are there any questions with this process?



English ??

1- I im French, and doing my best to write in both language, because i want to.
2- Everything you just said was clear to everyone, not saying that your thread was useless.....
3- Maybe you should have read the whole thread instead of just the last couple of pages.

Again my thread was about trying to make it clear for everyone still wandering about it.

Some peoples are saying that before they get their moneys they received an email from the PIL teams saying that their files was complete and the amount will be deposit on the mid-month pay.

Other people are saying that the money just show up on their account without any noticed.

Again, feeling like chasing my tail here, i was trying to see if there is a pattern on how its done.

And like i said on earlier thread, i have found my answer from others source, and even better i know exactly when i will get my deposit.

But i do appreciate the fact that you just create an account and try to help by being......funny.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

All right children take it to pm's or the fun police will drop in.....

Bottom line WRT PIL timelines will vary so your particular answers may not suit the next individual or vice versa.....


MILNET.CA MENTOR


----------



## stokerwes

Latest from the PIL team;

working on files that were received _*March 12th*_.  It is important to note, that files requiring archives access, and/or back and forth to the units for missing substantiating documentation require more time to complete the audit.  We are happy to report that we have returned for payment over 19,400 files and are _*averaging 1000 files completed a week.  

*_


----------



## brihard

Ottawabound said:
			
		

> 1. English please.
> 
> 2. I have the top-secret never-before-seen answer to your question on what the process is for PIL payments. For ease of learning, this process is broken down into three squads:
> 
> *Squad one:* on squad one, your Orderly Room gathered paperwork into neat and organized files and sent said files to Ottawa.
> 
> *Squad two:* on squad two, the Ottawa PIL team received said files, performed a file audit, and sent the results of said audit for payment.
> 
> *Squad three:* on squad three, the Payments Processing Office received said audit results from the Ottawa PIL team and paid out monies in accordance with said file audit.
> 
> Are there any questions with this process?



You will check your attitude at the door. You will do so immediately or your time here will likely prove to be short lived. Nothing you have to offer in terms of knowledge offsets being a raging douche and making this an unpleasant site for others to visit and to try to seek information. You are welcome here as long as you can abide by the site guidelines. Do I make myself clearly understood?

Milnet.ca admin


----------



## upandatom

dapaterson said:
			
		

> When does September have 31 days?



Meant End of month pay, last day of month that kinda deal. Sorry for a mistype.


----------



## EME101

Latest update from PiL site:

_The PIL Team has been fully operational for some months now and has received over 45,000 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 20,572 files comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 14 March 2013._

So still about 1000/week.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

Received my PIL on the end October pay run.  File was submitted in the latter part of February.

As a pleasant surprise I was also given my RegF time even though I had a 7 day break in service from my release to my transfer into the PRes.  So if others are in a similar position you may get a nice surprise.


----------



## stokerwes

stokerwes said:
			
		

> Latest from the PIL team;
> 
> working on files that were received _*March 12th*_.  It is important to note, that files requiring archives access, and/or back and forth to the units for missing substantiating documentation require more time to complete the audit.  We are happy to report that we have returned for payment over 19,400 files and are _*averaging 1000 files completed a week.
> *_


_*
The dates they are working on is what concerns me. Ottawa received my file end Feb, I checked with my OR and had them photocopy the DND749(?) it has the date Ottawa received it. I tried to get some info from PIL team and I just got the auto reply. Hoping it didn't get misplaced somewhere. I'll give it another month before I enquire again. If I get the auto reply I will try and call. I really hope that it doesn't come to that.
In the meantime if anyone out there has an inside source to at least find out if they still have my file, please PM me.
Thanks*_


----------



## George Wallace

stokerwes said:
			
		

> The dates they are working on is what concerns me. Ottawa received my file end Feb, I checked with my OR and had them photocopy the DND749(?) it has the date Ottawa received it. I tried to get some info from PIL team and I just got the auto reply. Hoping it didn't get misplaced somewhere. I'll give it another month before I enquire again. If I get the auto reply I will try and call. I really hope that it doesn't come to that.
> In the meantime if anyone out there has an inside source to at least find out if they still have my file, please PM me.
> Thanks



Yet another person trying to contact the PIL team.  I wonder if all the people trying to do so and you can start by counting the numbers in this thread alone, not to mention the thousands who do not come onto this site, were added up to see how many thousands of calls the PIL team must receive of members wondering about their payments.  How many thousands of calls does the PIL team receive that distract them from their actual work of working on the PIL?

How much work would you get done in your job if you are being called up by every serving and recently retired Service Member asking about their particular problems?


----------



## EME101

Definitely true.  All of the people contacting them must slow them down, however they could have mitigated that somewhat at the beginning by providing the updates that they now provide on the PiL site.  Odds are that very few people would have contacted them at all, until the first few tried and where successful.  I bet the number of enquiries have dropped substantially since they started providing those status updates.


----------



## stokerwes

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yet another person trying to contact the PIL team.  I wonder if all the people trying to do so and you can start by counting the numbers in this thread alone, not to mention the thousands who do not come onto this site, were added up to see how many thousands of calls the PIL team must receive of members wondering about their payments.  How many thousands of calls does the PIL team receive that distract them from their actual work of working on the PIL?
> 
> How much work would you get done in your job if you are being called up by every serving and recently retired Service Member asking about their particular problems?


I'm not sure how much work I would get done, if I received so many calls and emails probably not much, but I have never had a job that didn't have milestones or keep all parties involved updated on a regular basis. I agree the PIL team most likely receive many calls and emails and this will slow them down and likely frustrate them as it is more than likely the same question over and over. They should get less now that there are regular updates.
My concern is that they are working on files received mid-March yet my file was received by them mid-Feb. So I think that would justify a call. Seeing as any mistakes that are made in my pay is my responsibility.


----------



## Tibbson

stokerwes said:
			
		

> IMy concern is that they are working on files received mid-March yet my file was received by them mid-Feb. So I think that would justify a call. Seeing as any mistakes that are made in my pay is my responsibility.



You can call them all you want but the only info you will get is "yes, we have your file and we are now working on files received as of [insert date here]"  Since you already know that info it seems like a waste of your time and theirs to have someone call them again just for the same answer.


----------



## dapaterson

Depending on your past service (Reserves?  Broken Reg F service?) they may have returned for more info, and can't proceed until it's returned to them.


----------



## Tibbson

Emails are starting to be received by those of us in Halifax stating we'll get it on our end Nov pay.  Ours were received by Ottawa at the start of March.


----------



## stokerwes

That's great news, I hope that the people that really need it do get it before Christmas. 
I know it shouldn't be counted before its actually in the bank but I think some people might be counting on that extra cash for the holidays.


----------



## Tibbson

stokerwes said:
			
		

> That's great news, I hope that the people that really need it do get it before Christmas.
> I know it shouldn't be counted before its actually in the bank but I think some people might be counting on that extra cash for the holidays.



I'll count on it only when it's deposited but it sure would be a nice surprise if it showed up.


----------



## Prometheus74

My file was recieved by Ottawa on 13 March.  My PIL payment is showing up on my EMAA statement for end November pay.


----------



## Sunnyns

Here is a question now that we are into December.  Do we need to resubmit the forms for the 2014 year?  If so, that is another 6 weeks till we get the paperwork back.  I'd like to get it sent in before I leave.  I am quite sure I won't see the money for quite a while since mine was not sent in until the last week of March.


----------



## dapaterson

If you submitted the request for no taxes to CRA then you must resubmit for 2014.  CANFORGEN soon in that topic, or so I have heard.


----------



## Sunnyns

Thank you Dapaterson.

Have a good one.


----------



## Transporter

dapaterson said:
			
		

> If you submitted the request for no taxes to CRA then you must resubmit for 2014.  CANFORGEN soon in that topic, or so I have heard.


 The letter I received from CRA refers to Reduction of Income Tax Deductions at Source for "Calendar Year: 2013 or 2014 as applicable". I believe if the letter you received from CRA is also worded similarly, then if you receive your PiL in either 2013 or 2014 you should be G2G without requiring another letter. A CANFORGEN - if one is indeed forthcoming - would be helpful to alcon.


----------



## Sunnyns

On the T2131 I put 2013 at the top and it is only good for one year, so I am sure I will have to do another.  Yes a CANFORGEN will really help.


----------



## Transporter

Sunnyns said:
			
		

> On the T2131 I put 2013 at the top and it is only good for one year, so I am sure I will have to do another.  Yes a CANFORGEN will really help.


  I did too, and I'm betting everyone else did also. But, my letter from CRA (which is what accompanies the PiL request, not the T1213) specifies that my employer is authorized to reduce taxes paid on income for either 2013 or 2014 as applicable. So, if your letter from CRA says the same, the pay office already has CRA approval for 2014 - you don't need to submit another T1213 and/or obtain another letter. My guess is that CRA already knew that not everyone would get their PiL before the end of CY13, so they authorized for CY14 also, probably based on lessons learned from the PS severance payout.


----------



## dapaterson

It may depend on your Tax Office, or on when it arrived at CRA.  My letter says "2013" six times, and never 2014.

My "Hey, 2014 please" form is being dropped at their office on Monday.


----------



## Transporter

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It may depend on your Tax Office, or on when it arrived at CRA.  My letter says "2013" six times, and never 2014.
> 
> My "Hey, 2014 please" form is being dropped at their office on Monday.


 Interesting... I guess I just gave CRA too much credit that they'd have their collective act together on this. My letter says "Calendar Year: 2013 or 2014 as applicable" in the subject line, and then never mentions a date/year anywhere thereafter. References the lump sum payment which it says I will "receive shortly". Probably as you say, depends on the tax office issuing the letter perhaps. If I were in your shoes I'd do the same.


----------



## Tibbson

We got into a discussion with a member of my Unit the other day who has served for quite a number of years, including 4 years in the Reserves back in the 1980s.  We figured he would be waiting some time for his payout because they would have to go back into the archives for his reserve service but he didn't think it would be a factor since they didn't have severance packages in the reserves back then.  

It got me wondering, how does reserve time factor into all of this if its not "broken service" (reg/reserve/reg) but a situation where someone was in the reserves, released and then eventually joined the regs.


----------



## Sunnyns

I know many will not be happy that I have bothered the PIL team, I know they are quite busy and I would post what they said so it could help others.  I wanted clarification on needing to fill out a new T2131 and it can take up to 6 weeks to get a response.  This was their reply cut from the email, I also thanked them for all their hard work, realize they are quite busy and sorry for interrupting their work.

Good Morning

For all payments not received in 2013 and the member wishes to have income tax with held at source a new form from Revenue Canada must be submitted.


----------



## PuckChaser

Sunnyns said:
			
		

> Good Morning
> 
> For all payments not received in 2013 and the member wishes to have income tax with held at source a new form from Revenue Canada must be submitted.



Is that above or below $10,000? I seem to remember under $10,000 just needed one form that worked for any year...


----------



## tootlepj

What's funny is that my husband applied on December 15th, 2012 when the cut off to apply was December 14th, 2012 and after waiting 11 months he decided to contact Ottawa and they informed him that his file did not reach their location.  So just because you think they have your file does not make it true.  Also, because his file was stamped December 15th, 2012 and the military lost his file does that mean his goes to the bottom of the pile?  When reading the CFB website it stated the processing of said files was a two year process not three and it was on a first come first serve basis, posted on CFB website regarding severances.  Thanks.


----------



## Sunnyns

We applied for over 10,000 so I don't know about under, but thought that anything under 10,000 was paid out.  I really did not pay much attention to what applied to under.

If your husband calls the orderly room they should have a record as to when it was sent so I would start there if you are not sure they've received it.

I only passed on information that I got so that others could get their stuff in order for next year.


----------



## PuckChaser

Sunnyns said:
			
		

> We applied for over 10,000 so I don't know about under, but thought that anything under 10,000 was paid out.  I really did not pay much attention to what applied to under.



People with former reserve service still get screwed by the pay system, even after we've run far away from RPSR.


----------



## Transporter

Sunnyns said:
			
		

> I know many will not be happy that I have bothered the PIL team, I know they are quite busy and I would post what they said so it could help others.  I wanted clarification on needing to fill out a new T2131 and it can take up to 6 weeks to get a response.  This was their reply cut from the email, I also thanked them for all their hard work, realize they are quite busy and sorry for interrupting their work.
> 
> Good Morning
> 
> For all payments not received in 2013 and the member wishes to have income tax with held at source a new form from Revenue Canada must be submitted.


 Firstly, the form is a T1213 (not T2131) and secondly, the reply from the PiL office makes no sense. Nobody is asking to have income tax withheld at source - that's what the pay office does anyway. They're asking to NOT have income tax withheld at source. Also, the need to submit another T1213 to obtain another letter from Revenue Canada for 2014 assumes that the original letter you received didn't already authorize this for 2013 or 2014, as applicable, as did mine. Double-check your letter.


----------



## Canadian.Trucker

My payout that I received was over $10,000 and I had put in the Revenue Canada form to have $10,000 and less not taxed as I was planning to put it into an RRSP.

So all they did was tax me on the money that was over $10,000 and the rest was not taxed at source.


----------



## Sunnyns

I did re-read the paperwork.  I was told to only put 2013 on the tax form which I and I'm sure many did.  No where on my letter does it say anything about 2014 and the form is only good for that tax year.  The form does say you can put up to 2 years on it which according to this forum some did but what I was told was to only put 2013.  I'm sure the wording in the email was a miss print asking to with hold taxes, we are rolling it into RRSP's.  Anyway, take what you will from what I've said.  I sent in a second request for next year so things are not held up too much.  If it does turn out it was not necessary then at least I will have covered my bases.


----------



## PMedMoe

tootlepj said:
			
		

> What's funny is that my husband applied on December 15th, 2012 when the cut off to apply was December 14th, 2012 and after waiting 11 months he decided to contact Ottawa and they informed him that his file did not reach their location.  So just because you think they have your file does not make it true.  Also, because his file was stamped December 15th, 2012 and the military lost his file does that mean his goes to the bottom of the pile?



Am I reading this right?  He applied _after_ the deadline and you're b*tching about issues with it?     ???

I stand corrected.


----------



## dapaterson

For clarity, the dates to apply were mid-Dec through mid-March, so it sounds like that person applied the day after you were permitted - not the day after it closed...


----------



## PMedMoe

dapaterson said:
			
		

> For clarity, the dates to apply were mid-Dec through mid-March, so it sounds like that person applied the day after you were permitted - not the day after it closed...



Well, that certainly makes more sense....   :nod:


----------



## stokerwes

tootlepj said:
			
		

> What's funny is that my husband applied on December 15th, 2012 when the cut off to apply was December 14th, 2012 and after waiting 11 months he decided to contact Ottawa and they informed him that his file did not reach their location.  So just because you think they have your file does not make it true.  Also, because his file was stamped December 15th, 2012 and the military lost his file does that mean his goes to the bottom of the pile?  When reading the CFB website it stated the processing of said files was a two year process not three and it was on a first come first serve basis, posted on CFB website regarding severances.  Thanks.


Similar thing happened to me. Submitted paperwork Dec 15, left base orderly room Feb 24, I sent Ottawa an email in July just to find out my file was not submitted correctly on the OR side of the house. This was sorted out within a few days but  I still haven't received my PIL so I am assuming my file went to the bottom of the pile. Hope this is not the case for you.
My file was pretty straight forward 23.6 years all RegF no broken time.
Two things I don't understand is 1. Why did it take 2 months(ish) before my file even left the OR? 
2. How can my file be so difficult that the OR submitted it incorrectly? I really feel for someone with a complicated file or someone that is really counting on the money for Christmas ( I know don't spend or count on money you don't have).
Good luck
Good luck.


----------



## DAA

stokerwes said:
			
		

> Similar thing happened to me. Submitted paperwork Dec 15, left base orderly room Feb 24, I sent Ottawa an email in July just to find out my file was not submitted correctly on the OR side of the house. This was sorted out within a few days but  I still haven't received my PIL so I am assuming my file went to the bottom of the pile. Hope this is not the case for you.
> My file was pretty straight forward 23.6 years all RegF no broken time.
> Two things I don't understand is 1. Why did it take 2 months(ish) before my file even left the OR?
> 2. How can my file be so difficult that the OR submitted it incorrectly? I really feel for someone with a complicated file or someone that is really counting on the money for Christmas ( I know don't spend or count on money you don't have).
> Good luck



1.  The OR probably had direction from their higher power on just how to manage PiL applications. (ie; submit in bulk, etc, etc)
2.  It's not the complication factor that's critical, it's the exactness of the "pay out".  It needs to be "exact" with NO further review.  There is nothing worse, than being paid that money and a few years down the road you decide to retire, only to find out, "oooooopppppsss"  a boo boo was made and now we have to take some of that money back.


----------



## stokerwes

I understand the first part, we all have to do what were told.
The payout part? 23.xx years ( can't remember exactly I got the calculation in the mail it was correct) rate of pay the day severance stopped divided by 30 then multiplied by 7 and that value multiplied by 23.xx.
Time served x (Rate of pay/30 x 7) = Payout
 Is there something I'm missing?


----------



## DAA

stokerwes said:
			
		

> I understand the first part, we all have to do what were told.
> The payout part? 23.xx years ( can't remember exactly I got the calculation in the mail it was correct) divided by seven and then multiply rate of pay on the severance stopped. Is there something I'm missing?



Nope, there shouldn't be.   If you agreed with the "initial" calculations, then you should be fine.  But those calculations were "system" generated, so in some cases they may not be entirely accurate, hence, the requirement for a complete audit which is what is taking all the time.


----------



## stokerwes

I know just venting.


----------



## Transporter

IMHO, there is absolutely no justifiable defence or explanation for having something like this take in excess of a year to finalize... doesn't matter how you cut it. It's quite pathetic actually. Sure, you can say things like "Well, it's money you weren't going to have otherwise so don't worry about how long it's going to take to get it." But when you really think about how long this is taking, and why, it's pitiful. Not trying to slight the hard work being done by the 3 or 4 clerk Task Force we've established in Ottawa to tackle this (it's not their fault), but in this day and age, if this is the best we can do, we're in a heap of trouble. Again, IMHO.


----------



## Tibbson

Transporter said:
			
		

> IMHO, there is absolutely no justifiable defence or explanation for having something like this take in excess of a year to finalize... doesn't matter how you cut it. It's quite pathetic actually. Sure, you can say things like "Well, it's money you weren't going to have otherwise so don't worry about how long it's going to take to get it." But when you really think about how long this is taking, and why, it's pitiful. Not trying to slight the hard work being done by the 3 or 4 clerk Task Force we've established in Ottawa to tackle this (it's not their fault), but in this day and age, if this is the best we can do, we're in a heap of trouble. Again, IMHO.



You make a good point and it's only my lack of understanding on the full scope of the task that stop me from jumping in whole heartedly with your sentiment.  For me though it's the thought that, in this climate of budget cuts and fiscal house cleaning, I would have thought they would have thrown more resources at the issue just to be able to say "its done and dusted...the matter is now closed".  Some more clerks in the "task force" as you call it, regionalize the process, pay out 90% immediately for the "normal" cases and use the time to tweak the rest.....    In any event, it's getting done and anyone's feelings on the process are dependent upon the status of their files.


----------



## DAA

Hot off the presses as of yesterday.....

THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM HAS BEEN FULLY OPERATIONAL FOR MONTHS NOW AND HAS RECEIVED OVER 45 THOUSANDS FILES TO AUDIT. AUDIT HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND PAYMENT AUTHORIZED ON OVER 23 THOUSAND FILES.  THE TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON FILES RECEIVED MARCH 18TH


----------



## Transporter

DAA said:
			
		

> Hot off the presses as of yesterday.....
> 
> THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM HAS BEEN FULLY OPERATIONAL FOR MONTHS NOW AND HAS RECEIVED OVER 45 THOUSANDS FILES TO AUDIT. AUDIT HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND PAYMENT AUTHORIZED ON OVER 23 THOUSAND FILES.  THE TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON FILES RECEIVED MARCH 18TH


So, only about half way complete... wow. At this rate, should probably ask CRA for a letter to cover 2015 as well  ;D


----------



## PPCLI Guy

The Army chain of command is passing on that it is expected that all files will be paid out by May 2014.


----------



## DAA

Transporter said:
			
		

> So, only about half way complete... wow. At this rate, should probably ask CRA for a letter to cover 2015 as well  ;D



If you haven't been notified and or received payment as yet, I would definitely encourage you and anyone else to send a second request to CRA just to cover off calendar year 2014.  It definitely can't hurt to have that letter in advance just to be on the safe side.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Well, the rumour that you'll be paid out within 16 weeks upon retirement, appears to be just that.

Coming up on 20 weeks for me so far.

Oh well, it'll come eventually.


----------



## DAA

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well, the rumour that you'll be paid out within 16 weeks upon retirement, appears to be just that.
> 
> Coming up on 20 weeks for me so far.
> 
> Oh well, it'll come eventually.



Far as I know, once you are in the release process, a copy of your RTNM is suppose to be forwarded (once it is issued), so that your severance get's pushed to the top of the pile.


----------



## kratz

Sun of a Beaver !!!!  >

I've seen some NavRes RTNM issued 12 to 18 months after the release date.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

DAA said:
			
		

> Far as I know, once you are in the release process, a copy of your RTNM is suppose to be forwarded (once it is issued), so that your severance get's pushed to the top of the pile.



Yeah, well that's another of those 'rumours' I heard, hence the 16 week timeline 

I'd like to see something official on this. Alas, I'm no longer in a position to rattle chains or cruise the DWAN.


----------



## rstokes02

I have both reserve and reg force time, i was notified via email about 2 days ago that i should be getting my PiL payment 15 Dec, the issue i have is that my initial assessment of time in was wrong, as it only had my reg force so it went for audit or what have you, but i never received anything further stating how much time they were crediting me with.  Do i just address this my unit OR, the pay office or what? any suggestions?


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Any member with time in both is auto 100% audited.


----------



## 63 Delta

Quick question about how long it will take PIL Payment to hit my bank account after it shows up on my Pay Statement?

It showed on my last pay statement, and I received an email stating: "Note: Payment will be received Mid/End Nov 13 along with your normal pay." It seems to imply that the PIL payment is synced with the regular pay. Is this true, or will it be a separate DFT?


----------



## dapaterson

Lesson learned (and ntoe to take for Class A reservists):  Even if you've got your "no taxes, please" letter on file, the payment will be subject to CPP and EI decutions if you haven't maxxed them out for the year.  So the amount of your deposit may be less than 100%.


Lesson learned #2: Since it looked like I wouldn't get mine until 2014, on Monday I dropped off my letter to CRA requesting a 2014 exemption as well.  Last night I was told that my payment will be the next payrun.  Therefore, if you want things to happen, engage in staff work that will be overtaken by events.


----------



## ajp

Mine showed up in the same pay as the statement it appeared on.  SPENT Already.


----------



## 63 Delta

Hmmm... Anyone have a suggestion on how long I should wait tell I make an inquiry? And where would my inquiry start? My OR Clerk, or is the PIL team? They seem like they are probably pretty busy.


----------



## 63 Delta

Does anyone have an idea on this? I just found out tonight that a family member has passed, and have to fly out to Alberta on short notice.


----------



## Transporter

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> Quick question about how long it will take PIL Payment to hit my bank account after it shows up on my Pay Statement?
> 
> It showed on my last pay statement, and I received an email stating: "Note: Payment will be received Mid/End Nov 13 along with your normal pay." It seems to imply that the PIL payment is synced with the regular pay. Is this true, or will it be a separate DFT?


If it showed on your pay statement for a Nov pay period and you received an email saying to expect it either mid or end Nov pay and it hasn't showed-up in your account yet, I think you'd be well within your rights to check with your OR clerk and/or pay office to ensure nothing has gone awry. Should be a simple question for them to answer. Don't bother the PiL team as it appears their work is done on your file.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

I don't think you meant to post this here. In any case contact your immediate supervisior.


----------



## George Wallace

HULK_011 said:
			
		

> Does anyone have an idea on this? I just found out tonight that a family member has passed, and have to fly out to Alberta on short notice.



Just pretend that the PIL didn't exist.  What would you do?

Now do it.


----------



## Sunnyns

I sent a fax requesting info for next year, I was planning on handing in that and a copy of the Estimate of Eligible Years of Service form to my clerk.  Just to cover the bases.
May sounds about right if you look at them completing 1000ish files a week.


----------



## Transporter

Submitted my paperwork on/about 20 Feb 13 for 100% payout. All Reg F (no Res time) and no broken service. Received email today that my PiL was ready for payment and should be in the bank in 7-10 business days. So, roughly 10 months to process. Merry Christmas to me.


----------



## dapaterson

And a new CANFORGEN for Christmas:


CANFORGEN 208/13 CMP 092/13 202033Z DEC 13
PAYMENT IN LIEU(PIL) OF CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY(CFSP)
UNCLASSIFIED

THE TAX WAIVER FORM IS CONTAINED IN THE CFSP/REHABILITATION LEAVE ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVE AND MUST BE APPLIED FOR A SPECIFIC YEAR. IF YOU DID NOT RECEIVE PIL PAYMENT BEFORE 31 DEC 2013, YOU WILL HAVE TO SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST TO CRA AND FORWARD THE NEW FORM TO THE PIL TEAM. IF YOU DO NOT SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST, THE PROCESSING OF YOUR PIL REQUEST WILL BE DELAYED. YOU ARE REMINDED TO INCLUDE YOUR SERVICE NUMBER ON ALL DOCUMENTS. YOU CAN SEND YOUR NEW FORM DIRECTLY TO THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM ATPLUS)DMCA 4 PIL TEAM(AT SIGN)CMP DMCA(AT SIGN)OTTAWA-HULL 

THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 45 THOUSAND FILES TO AUDIT. THE AUDIT HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND PAYMENT, AUTHORIZED FOR OVER 23 THOUSAND FILES. THE TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON FILES RECEIVED 18 MAR 13. DMCA EXPECTS COMPLETION OF THE PIL OF CFSP PROJECT BY JUN 2014 

THE PIL TEAM PROVIDES A BI-MONTHLY SITREP LOCATED ON THEIR WEB SITE TO FIND OUT WHAT DATE THE PIL TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON AND HOW MANY FILES HAVE BEEN PROCESSED. PLEASE VISIT HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/DGMC/ADMIN/PIL-PTLI/INDEX-ENG.ASP 

YOUR PATIENCE IS APRECIATED


----------



## Fishbone Jones

dapaterson said:
			
		

> PLEASE VISIT HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/DGMC/ADMIN/PIL-PTLI/INDEX-ENG.ASP



It would be nice if they provided an INTERNET address. There are tons of people, retired, Reserve, etc that are entitled to know what's happening, with their accounts, but have no access to the DIN.

There also seems to be too many http://'s in that link.


----------



## PuckChaser

Terribly worded CANFORGEN. Which tax waivers do they require resent? You needed a tax waiver for amounts paid out under $10,000, that is valid for any year. Are they changing rule now?

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/rehab-leave.page#sec-0312

I realize they are busy, but some clarity in CANFORGENs could probably reduce the volume of members calling the PiL team directly, or bugging their ORs on a constant basis.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I called the PiL team to ask about my retirement severance.

They said they would get back to me in two days.

They never did.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Got mine this last pay. 100% with Reg and Res time. 




			
				Transporter said:
			
		

> Submitted my paperwork on/about 20 Feb 13 for 100% payout. All Reg F (no Res time) and no broken service. Received email today that my PiL was ready for payment and should be in the bank in 7-10 business days. So, roughly 10 months to process. Merry Christmas to me.


----------



## Sunnyns

Since I'm no longer in the military and the husband is deployed and does not have access to a computer most of the time.  Could someone post the fax number?  With my luck I would look up the number and it would be the wrong one.

Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas!


----------



## vandoos283

> Facsimile/Telecopieur 613-996-1169


----------



## Sunnyns

Thank you!  ;D


----------



## The_Dictat

Got mine on 15 dec pay!!!  ;D Full-time reserve 100% over 10000K


----------



## AliG

The_Dictat said:
			
		

> Got mine on 15 dec pay!!!  ;D Full-time reserve 100% over 10000K



10 millions? Darn, those really inflated since I was in...    ;D

Nice Christmas gift to put into some other saving instrument. - The 10 thousands or so anyway! - and hopefully not get hit at income tax time.


----------



## The_Dictat

AliG said:
			
		

> 10 millions? Darn, those really inflated since I was in...    ;D
> 
> Nice Christmas gift to put into some other saving instrument. - The 10 thousands or so anyway! - and hopefully not get hit at income tax time.



LOL, very interesting typo... I wish


----------



## brihard

This is bloody ridiculous. For those of you keeping track, the rest of the federal organizations / departments got theirs with minimal delay- mere weeks in many cases. I'm now stuck getting mine in a subsequent year where I'll face substantially more tax liability because the CF takes a year to process something that should be exceptionally straightforward. Nowhere else would this kind of delay in a benefit worth thousands of dollars be tolerated.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Agreed, it's a farce and BS.  There's no way this should have taken this long for anyone.  Excuses from the RMS world be dammed.  We're living in the age of electronics.  This exercise should be no more than a few key strokes and have it done and over with tout suite.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

There's a saying. Speak about stuff which you are knowledgeable. You don't know the process. For example they may need to look at physical records which is more then a few electronic key strokes. They already gave notice at the beginning it would take up to 3 years. They also have no bearing on when your file was received. Maybe you should request to help them out and report back just how easy the work load is.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Goes hand and glove with the Reserve pension. No other federal department would have been subjected to the terms and interest rates that that plan is, not to mention the ongoing administrative nightmares that are the hallmark of the program.


----------



## dapaterson

Until senior leaders and managers are held accountable, nothing will change.  The electronic copies of the Reserve pay records from 1976 - 1996 were discarded, yet no one was held accountable.  That one failure continues to reverberate nearly 20 years later, impacting the pension buyback and PiL for Res and for Reg with former Res service.

Yet no one has ever been called to account for it.  Instead, efforts are made to restore archaic colonial symbols of rank.  Great place to concentrate efforts...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

As someone I work with noted, if we owe the federal coffers $, say for income tax owing, etc we pay fees and interest.  Funny how that isn't a two way street.

I was told at my last BOR PIL Section that the only reason they weren't allowed to process payments for those who elected more than 50% was because someone decided that if that was allowed, and the BOR staff screwed up their audit and payment, then it would be more difficult to recover the overpayments.  So it was decided to go the way they did.  

:

On top of that, my last unit didn't forward my paperwork until March, despite the fact that I had it in on the first day of the submission period (mid Dec).


----------



## Sunnyns

I would not really say it is the clerks faults, I'm sure a few have made mistakes but looking at the whole picture.  It depends how many clerks were assigned to work on the files.  If they had doubled the allotted amount of clerks it would be done by now assuming they are at the halfway point.  We are chomping at the bit only because we want to put the money into RRSP and then use it to buy a house.  It has to sit in the RRSP for 90 days so if we got the money in May, it would almost be at the end of posting season and we'd be left with a smaller selection of houses.  BUT, it will get done in the next few months. Everyone has a reason for wanting/needing the money.  Hope everyone has a great New Year!!!  Cheers   ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I don't think anyone is blaming the clerks. All they can do is the job they are told to do, as best they can, with what they've got.

The blame sits squarely on the reptilian shoulders of the massive gits that launched these programs without doing their battle procedure.

They were given a task and ran out the door Monty Pythonesque throwing useless paper and issuing even more useless orders.

Treasury Board is not blameless in all of this either. They had the power to issue clear direction and timelines, and failed to hold up their end of the bargain and people's feet to the fire.

That's how I see it anyway.


----------



## brihard

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> There's a saying. Speak about stuff which you are knowledgeable. You don't know the process. For example they may need to look at physical records which is more then a few electronic key strokes. They already gave notice at the beginning it would take up to 3 years. They also have no bearing on when your file was received. Maybe you should request to help them out and report back just how easy the work load is.



Or maybe the military should have gotten its poop in a group from the outset. The 'up to three years' was a decision the military made; the CF decided that that was an acceptable benchmark, and staffed the cell doing it accordingly.

The *work* is, undoubtedly, quite easy, even if some files present a challenge due to how fractured someone's service is and how the CF can suck at maintaining records. The work *load* is greatly disproportionate to the resources allocated to it, and we get bent over a barrel because of it. I am not blaming the clerks processing files. I'm saying that only in the military is this sort of hamfisted approach to compensation and benefits acceptable. The rest of the federal sector was able to accomplish this in a few weeks to a few months. The military puts together a shoddy approach, and many of thsoe who haven't worked outside the military think it's acceptable simply because they don't realize that it's far from the norm.


----------



## Tibbson

Brihard said:
			
		

> I am not blaming the clerks processing files. I'm saying that only in the military is this sort of hamfisted approach to compensation and benefits acceptable. The rest of the federal sector was able to accomplish this in a few weeks to a few months. The military puts together a shoddy approach, and many of thsoe who haven't worked outside the military think it's acceptable simply because they don't realize that it's far from the norm.



Since seeing this comment about other government departments mentioned more then once I took some time while home on vacation and spoke to two relatives of mine who work for other federal government departments.  One works for the passport office and he told he his took 22 months from notice to payment.  Another cousin works for PWGSC and hers took over 18 months.  Yes, shorter then ours but hardly "a few weeks to a few months".


----------



## Eye In The Sky

A friend of mine, ex-CAF now RCMP got his just before Christmas 2012.  His wife, also RCMP, had hers abou a month before him.


----------



## vandoos283

So some went faster that others......Looking forward for mine!


----------



## brihard

Tibbson said:
			
		

> Since seeing this comment about other government departments mentioned more then once I took some time while home on vacation and spoke to two relatives of mine who work for other federal government departments.  One works for the passport office and he told he his took 22 months from notice to payment.  Another cousin works for PWGSC and hers took over 18 months.  Yes, shorter then ours but hardly "a few weeks to a few months".



What are extreme cases in other department are largely the norm in the CF. I figure if the RCMP were able to get all of their within a couple of months - and that's with a force of 22,000 spread more widely across Canada than, I would contend, any other federal agency - then it's indicative of what should be possible. The fact that for the CF it was not suggests that there are some serious deficiencies in record keeping if something this straightforward could not be figured out and paid out reasonably quickly.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

CAF also has to deal with Reserves and combined service which no other federal service has and is the largest government agency with people coast to coast and internationally.


----------



## brihard

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> CAF also has to deal with Reserves and combined service which no other federal service has and is the largest government agency with people coast to coast and internationally.



Crazy thought- maybe have more people working in the cell processing it? Not hard toget people for that kind of work.

I ran the numbers for my case; receiving my severance this tax year vice last will cost me ~$500 more of my severance lost to taxes. That's a bit of a kick in the nuts given that mine was in well on time.


----------



## ballz

Brihard said:
			
		

> Crazy thought- maybe have more people working in the cell processing it? Not hard toget people for that kind of work.



I agree with you that the machine is not well-oiled. The unfortunate part is... somewhere from the ground, I am sure, someone was probably pushing info up that "we need more people and more resources to do this within the constraints you've given us." And that info got shut down some at a certain level, a level which I'd rather not openly guess at on a public forum :-\


----------



## Pusser

I find it interesting that many of the complaints here centre around the idea that there are obviously not enough people working on what is proving to be a particularly labour-intensive process.  Now where would those people come from?  Another common theme on this forum is that there are too many people in HQs doing seemingly "pointless" staff work and not enough folks in the front line units (i.e. our "tooth to tail" ratio is all screwed up).  The sad reality is that if we want to reduce the "tail" in the organization and put more resources into the "teeth," that's fine, but we also have to recognize that our staff functions (which are still necessary), will become less efficient and will take longer.

PS:  Anyone who thinks that this kind of problem is unique to the CF/DND is dreaming.  Inefficiency and delay are rife throughout both the public and private sectors as everyone wants to concentrate on their "core" functions, thinking that their "support" will just kind of happen.


----------



## brihard

Pusser said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that many of the complaints here centre around the idea that there are obviously not enough people working on what is proving to be a particularly labour-intensive process.  Now where would those people come from?  Another common theme on this forum is that there are too many people in HQs doing seemingly "pointless" staff work and not enough folks in the front line units (i.e. our "tooth to tail" ratio is all screwed up).  The sad reality is that if we want to reduce the "tail" in the organization and put more resources into the "teeth," that's fine, but we also have to recognize that our staff functions (which are still necessary), will become less efficient and will take longer.
> 
> PS:  Anyone who thinks that this kind of problem is unique to the CF/DND is dreaming.  Inefficiency and delay are rife throughout both the public and private sectors as everyone wants to concentrate on their "core" functions, thinking that their "support" will just kind of happen.



It's an exceptional manning need, not something that will endure. Perfect instance to hire some reservists full time, or some public servants from the pools on term contracts. Let's not pretend for a second that there isn't massive headquarters bloat- and not on necessary _staff_ functions, but on largely redundant _bureaucratic_ ones- a different beast entirely.


----------



## PuckChaser

Pusser said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that many of the complaints here centre around the idea that there are obviously not enough people working on what is proving to be a particularly labour-intensive process.  Now where would those people come from?  Another common theme on this forum is that there are too many people in HQs doing seemingly "pointless" staff work and not enough folks in the front line units (i.e. our "tooth to tail" ratio is all screwed up).  The sad reality is that if we want to reduce the "tail" in the organization and put more resources into the "teeth," that's fine, but we also have to recognize that our staff functions (which are still necessary), will become less efficient and will take longer.



Why did we need a PIL team in the first place? They should have been there for extraordinary cases, and let unit ORs do the auditting (which they had to do anyway) for the vast majority of cases. Its not about "tooth to tail" ratio, its effectively leveraging the skills of the "tail" we have integral to all units in the CF.

I think you're misreading what sort of pointless staff work a lot of members on this forum want gone, and RMS clerks aren't one of them...


----------



## dapaterson

A few thoughts:

1.  Many other departments had delays due to the contract agreements to implement PiL not being reached.  Indeed, within DND the payout was staggered, depending on the collective agreements - the PA group were first, PGs only recently received it, and the FIs are only now getting the option.  Not quite apples to apples.

2.  Units could not implement this on their own; there's too great a potential for miuse of authority in a situation involving a large amount of public money.  "Hey there, Cpl RMS clerk.  I'm the LCol in command who can control your future career or lack thereof.  Now that you understand that, remember that my daily rate of pay for PiL was $10000.".  That said, there could have been decentralized models for managing the PiL payment; unfortunately, mission command is something discussed on courses but rarely implemented in the real world.


----------



## Navy_Pete

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And a new CANFORGEN for Christmas:
> 
> 
> CANFORGEN 208/13 CMP 092/13 202033Z DEC 13
> PAYMENT IN LIEU(PIL) OF CANADIAN FORCES SEVERANCE PAY(CFSP)
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> THE TAX WAIVER FORM IS CONTAINED IN THE CFSP/REHABILITATION LEAVE ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVE AND MUST BE APPLIED FOR A SPECIFIC YEAR. IF YOU DID NOT RECEIVE PIL PAYMENT BEFORE 31 DEC 2013, YOU WILL HAVE TO SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST TO CRA AND FORWARD THE NEW FORM TO THE PIL TEAM. IF YOU DO NOT SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST, THE PROCESSING OF YOUR PIL REQUEST WILL BE DELAYED. YOU ARE REMINDED TO INCLUDE YOUR SERVICE NUMBER ON ALL DOCUMENTS. YOU CAN SEND YOUR NEW FORM DIRECTLY TO THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM ATPLUS)DMCA 4 PIL TEAM(AT SIGN)CMP DMCA(AT SIGN)OTTAWA-HULL


Can someone confirm I am reading this correctly?  So if I've yet to get the PIL payout, I have to email a new form to the email included for the 2014 tax year, that I can presumably get at the included DWAN site?




			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 45 THOUSAND FILES TO AUDIT. THE AUDIT HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND PAYMENT, AUTHORIZED FOR OVER 23 THOUSAND FILES. THE TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON FILES RECEIVED 18 MAR 13. DMCA EXPECTS COMPLETION OF THE PIL OF CFSP PROJECT BY JUN 2014
> .....



Is that received by date for when it was submitted to the BOR or when DMCA received it?  I know when I dropped it off, but no idea when it was forwarded to DMCA.

Also, did they not preaudit everyone's files to determine how much eligible time would be put against the payout, and then do a quick data pull from the pay system at that point to have the pay rate to figure out the amount, so they would know how much to create the PAYE for that fiscal for all PIL payments?  I really can't wrap my head around why they need to audit anything at this point, as it should have already been done.

As an aside, when are we transitioning to to sentence case messages (vice all capitals)?  I always have a hard time reading them in all caps, regardless of how many I go through.

Putting this out on 24 Dec was just dirty pool though; pretty much guarantees no one will see it until around now.  It's not like they didn't know about this in November (and earlier).  It would have been pretty easy to have the forms in once you confirmed it wasn't on the mid december pay if you were one of the 23k still being processed.


----------



## Tibbson

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Can someone confirm I am reading this correctly?  So if I've yet to get the PIL payout, I have to email a new form to the email included for the 2014 tax year, that I can presumably get at the included DWAN site?
> 
> 
> Is that received by date for when it was submitted to the BOR or when DMCA received it?  I know when I dropped it off, but no idea when it was forwarded to DMCA.



Yes, you will need to get a new form to them and it is available from the DWAN site.  Also, the date the PIL team uses is the date their received it, not the date it was received at your BOR.  Some BOR's sent them in at regular intervals as they received them from the member and some held them all till the end and sent them in all at once.  Your BOR should be able to tell you when it was sent to Ottawa.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Putting this out on 24 Dec was just dirty pool though; pretty much guarantees no one will see it until around now.  It's not like they didn't know about this in November (and earlier).  It would have been pretty easy to have the forms in once you confirmed it wasn't on the mid december pay if you were one of the 23k still being processed.



It was sent on 20 Dec (and likely drafted 3-5 days earlier than that) - when the PiL Team was still at work, unlike most of the rest of us, who were on leave.


----------



## George Wallace

Tibbson said:
			
		

> Yes, you will need to get a new form to them and it is available from the DWAN site.  Also, the date the PIL team uses is the date their received it, not the date it was received at your BOR.  Some BOR's sent them in at regular intervals as they received them from the member and some held them all till the end and sent them in all at once.  Your BOR should be able to tell you when it was sent to Ottawa.



So?  With all the screwing around with priorities, what do the guys and gals who retired in the meantime do?  Not having access to the DWAN anymore, I am sure they are curious as to what procedures they are to follow?


----------



## Pusser

Brihard said:
			
		

> It's an exceptional manning need, not something that will endure. Perfect instance to hire some reservists full time, or some public servants from the pools on term contracts. Let's not pretend for a second that there isn't massive headquarters bloat- and not on necessary _staff_ functions, but on largely redundant _bureaucratic_ ones- a different beast entirely.



First off, they did bring in extra people.  Apparently, just not enough.  Although, from where are all these extra people supposed to come?  There seems to be this belief that there are thousands of reservists out there just chomping at the bit and ready to jump in for this sort of thing (If you call them, they will come?).  This just isn't the case.  Specific skill sets are needed for this sort of work.  You can't hire just anyone.

On another note, this audit is not something newly created for PIL.  This audit has always been done for every member releasing from the CF (PIL is essentially a release benefit).  PIL has only created the requirement to do a massive amount of files all at once.  It is to confirm that the member has been paid correctly over the course of their career and includes a look at all allowances, rates of pay and leave.  It's the final opportunity to ensure that everything is in order as once the member leaves, it can be difficult to track them down to recover overpayments OR underpayments (yes, those happen too).  Could it have been done better?  Probably.  It is beyond me why we don't conduct periodic audits over the course of a member's career to make it go quicker at the end, but then again, they never asked me (although I did mention this to DMPAP once over a beer).  The staff answer is that they never saw a huge need to do so because at one time, it only took a few weeks to do the audit, but with staff cuts over the years (getting rid of that HQ bloat), the processing time has gotten longer...


----------



## George Wallace

Pusser said:
			
		

> First off, they did bring in extra people.  Apparently, just not enough.  Although, from where are all these extra people supposed to come?  There seems to be this belief that there are thousands of reservists out there just chomping at the bit and ready to jump in for this sort of thing (If you call them, they will come?).  This just isn't the case.  Specific skill sets are needed for this sort of work.  You can't hire just anyone.



There are; and they did hire almost anyone.  They trained them on what was required.



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> On another note, this audit is not something newly created for PIL.  This audit has always been done for every member releasing from the CF (PIL is essentially a release benefit).  PIL has only created the requirement to do a massive amount of files all at once.  It is to confirm that the member has been paid correctly over the course of their career and includes a look at all allowances, rates of pay and leave.  It's the final opportunity to ensure that everything is in order as once the member leaves, it can be difficult to track them down to recover overpayments OR underpayments (yes, those happen too).  Could it have been done better?  Probably.  It is beyond me why we don't conduct periodic audits over the course of a member's career to make it go quicker at the end, but then again, they never asked me (although I did mention this to DMPAP once over a beer).  The staff answer is that they never saw a huge need to do so because at one time, it only took a few weeks to do the audit, but with staff cuts over the years (getting rid of that HQ bloat), the processing time has gotten longer...



Not to mention that the Fin Clk and Admin Clk Trades were merged and now neither knows the others job to the level necessary to fully run an OR efficiently and effectively, especially when they are the only RMS Clk in a unit.  I am sure, had we still had Fin Clks, the PIL would probably not become such an administrative Jug F ______ .


----------



## Navy_Pete

I guess my mind just boggles at the level of effort (and associated cost) for auditing all 45k files.

They have already put all the money aside for the PILs in the form of a PAYE, so they have accepted their initial calculations are more or less correct, which they probably have done a sanity check on anyway.  Is there any particular reason they could not have farmed this out to the individual BOR teams for the final audit?  The time in could have been confirmed by the divisional system, with a pretty simple process to fix any discrepancies, and the payments processed at the units.

They could have done a central check on anything over a certain value (to confirm the rate of pay makes sense), but this current process is a bit excessive.

The general level of effort we put into auditing things numerous times drives me crazy.  Don't doubt the folks doing the work are working hard at it, but it seems like unrequired work based on poor high level decisions.  (insert clever comment about that being a common theme here).


----------



## Tibbson

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> I guess my mind just boggles at the level of effort (and associated cost) for auditing all 45k files.
> 
> They have already put all the money aside for the PILs in the form of a PAYE, so they have accepted their initial calculations are more or less correct, which they probably have done a sanity check on anyway.  Is there any particular reason they could not have farmed this out to the individual BOR teams for the final audit?  The time in could have been confirmed by the divisional system, with a pretty simple process to fix any discrepancies, and the payments processed at the units.
> 
> They could have done a central check on anything over a certain value (to confirm the rate of pay makes sense), but this current process is a bit excessive.
> 
> The general level of effort we put into auditing things numerous times drives me crazy.  Don't doubt the folks doing the work are working hard at it, but it seems like unrequired work based on poor high level decisions.  (insert clever comment about that being a common theme here).



I'm no RMS expert but when I think of the following it starts to become clearer to me why they did not just "farm it out":

- those members with broken service;
- those members with prior reserve service, keeping in mind for some of us it was quite some time ago when reserve gratuities and/or may or may not even have existed.  
- reg force members working with reserve Units who may not have the capability to do the audit and verification properly.
- reg force members working with small or distributed Units.  My own Unit consists of about 200 persons in 5 locations across the country.  Detachment wise we don't have a clerk and the two clerks we DO have are located with our HQ and are part time JPSU augmentees.
- members who are deployed or otherwise posted out of country during some or all of this process
- members who signed up to cash out and then, for what ever reason, released during the process.

I could see where there are just too many variables to make this work by farming it out.   Our spending is under so much (too much) scrutiny as it is, I can just see how it would have looked if we had overspent by 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars for something that could have been done right in the first place.


----------



## PuckChaser

Tibbson said:
			
		

> - those members with broken service;
> - those members with prior reserve service, keeping in mind for some of us it was quite some time ago when reserve gratuities and/or may or may not even have existed.
> - reg force members working with reserve Units who may not have the capability to do the audit and verification properly.
> - reg force members working with small or distributed Units.  My own Unit consists of about 200 persons in 5 locations across the country.  Detachment wise we don't have a clerk and the two clerks we DO have are located with our HQ and are part time JPSU augmentees.
> - members who are deployed or otherwise posted out of country during some or all of this process
> - members who signed up to cash out and then, for what ever reason, released during the process.



That sounds like a small fraction of the total number of files. I have prior reserve service (no broken time, and my ROR simply printed out my RPSR and my current RegF pay guide. What Ottawa needs to look at for my file is beyond me. Do I have secret time hidden somewhere? Or maybe a special pay entry that is only visible to NDHQ? No. Yes there are reservists with time in that was before online pay systems, and they're the unique 1% that would need PiL Ottawa to sort it out.

A special team is for special cases. Vast majority of members should have gotten their paperwork completed at home unit, vetted by Chief Clerk, and filled for payment. No need for quadruple auditting for someone getting under $10K.


----------



## stokerwes

Even after 25+ years it continues to baffle me on how the audits need to be audited by the auditors and then audited again by another special team formed.
I agree the "Tiger Team" ??, should only be required for special circumstances. The majority of personnel should be pretty straight forward.
Yet because all files are in Ottawa the special cases are appearing to hold up the straight forward cases, I may be wrong but that is my perception. To add to this  some unit BOR's somehow found it prudent to hold files until given direction, or until the final day of the election period, on when to send them to Ottawa. I can only hope that there will be some lessons learned from this as this process will still be in effect for personnel that chose to receive their PIL/severance upon release.
Saying that it may take up to  three years shouldn't mean that it is going to take three years, it should be the exception.
But having said all of this it is always easier to stand back at look for faults in anything. Being directly involved is always a different perspective.
I hope that the few people that are diligently working on this project continue to keep up the good work and get done as soon as they are able to.


Until then I'll not so patiently waiting for my PIL.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Tibbson said:
			
		

> I'm no RMS expert but when I think of the following it starts to become clearer to me why they did not just "farm it out":
> 
> - those members with broken service;
> - those members with prior reserve service, keeping in mind for some of us it was quite some time ago when reserve gratuities and/or may or may not even have existed.
> - reg force members working with reserve Units who may not have the capability to do the audit and verification properly.
> - reg force members working with small or distributed Units.  My own Unit consists of about 200 persons in 5 locations across the country.  Detachment wise we don't have a clerk and the two clerks we DO have are located with our HQ and are part time JPSU augmentees.
> - members who are deployed or otherwise posted out of country during some or all of this process
> - members who signed up to cash out and then, for what ever reason, released during the process.
> 
> I could see where there are just too many variables to make this work by farming it out.   Our spending is under so much (too much) scrutiny as it is, I can just see how it would have looked if we had overspent by 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars for something that could have been done right in the first place.



Every unit has a URS.  You're looking for the ways it would NOT have worked vice the reasons it would have.

If the clerks at my Sqn and URS aren't able to handle a PIL payment task, should I trust they can handle any other admin?

Comparing this to say, a maintenance task, it would be like sending all veh's to 3rd line maintenance *because 1st and 2nd line might screw it up*.


----------



## PuckChaser

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Comparing this to say, a maintenance task, it would be like sending all veh's to 3rd line maintenance *because 1st and 2nd line might screw it up*.



Perfect example.


----------



## Pusser

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Every unit has a URS.  You're looking for the ways it would NOT have worked vice the reasons it would have.
> 
> If the clerks at my Sqn and URS aren't able to handle a PIL payment task, should I trust they can handle any other admin?
> 
> Comparing this to say, a maintenance task, it would be like sending all veh's to 3rd line maintenance *because 1st and 2nd line might screw it up*.



I would disagree.  First line does 1st line maintenance.  Third line does 3rd line maintenance.  PIL is akin to 3rd line.  In terms I'm familiar with, the pay office does 1st line stuff like the day to day handling of pay records, payments, etc in the same way that the ship's company does 1st line maintenance and repair in the ship.  The PIL is doing 3rd line like stuff in the same way that the Fleet Maintenance Facility or even a civilian contractor does a refit.

Auditing is not as simple as reading a file and checking the arithmetic.  Every line has to be compared to the regulations (some of which have changed over the years, so they have to ensure that it was applied correctly IAW with the regulation of the day.  The audit also involves everything that can be calculated in terms of money (e.g. leave), not just pay.  It reminds me of a file I once had to work on where I had to research eight different regulations that had each changed at least three times during the 15 year period in question - all of which affected how the member was supposed to be paid.  As I recall, it took me about a month to sort it all out and I wasn't working on anything else at the time.

Maybe the whole process has been handled badly, but it is certainly not as simple and quick a process as some have made it out to be.  Keep in mind that hiring more people to work the files costs money - tax dollars (remember we're all taxpayers) that could be used for other things.  Keep also in mind that the government was under no obligation to pay it out at all at this time.  They simply could have said that we all stop accumulating credit for it, but we would still have to wait to retirement to collect it.  Perhaps we should be rather grateful that we all have the opportunity to collect what is essentially a windfall and invest it and hopefully turn a profit.  Before last year, we weren't expecting it at all.  So what's the rush?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Pusser said:
			
		

> I would disagree.  First line does 1st line maintenance.  Third line does 3rd line maintenance.  PIL is akin to 3rd line.  In terms I'm familiar with, the pay office does 1st line stuff like the day to day handling of pay records, payments, etc in the same way that the ship's company does 1st line maintenance and repair in the ship.  The PIL is doing 3rd line like stuff in the same way that the Fleet Maintenance Facility or even a civilian contractor does a refit.



But not ALL maint is 3rd line and not ALL the PIL payments over 50% had to go to "3rd line" IMO.


----------



## dapaterson

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> But not ALL maint is 3rd line and not ALL the PIL payments over 50% had to go to "3rd line" IMO.



Correct.  Planners assessed the situation and put in place mechanisms to reduce the immediate audit work required, taking on an acceptable level of risk.

At then end of the day any payment must be made IAW the FAA.  The PiL plan permitted easy ones to be handled at the local level.


----------



## PuckChaser

Where was severance calculated prior to its removal, the base release section?


----------



## dapaterson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Where was severance calculated prior to its removal, the base release section?



Severance would be calculated at the base, then audited in Ottawa prior to being paid.

In other words, exactly the same system used for the PiL.


----------



## PuckChaser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Severance would be calculated at the base, then audited in Ottawa prior to being paid.
> 
> In other words, exactly the same system used for the PiL.



But with the same level of staffing used for normal FY releases to process the entire CF. Good call, NDHQ.


----------



## dapaterson

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> But with the same level of staffing used for normal FY releases to process the entire CF. Good call, NDHQ.



No.  Additional pers were brought in to deal with the increased workload.


----------



## SupersonicMax

What is it again?  Centralized Control, Decentralized Execution?

Where is the faith in our middle management?  Why do we need to swamp 1 office and make the process incredibly slow?


----------



## stokerwes

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> What is it again?  Centralized Control, Decentralized Execution?
> 
> *Where is the faith in our middle management?*  Why do we need to swamp 1 office and make the process incredibly slow?



That is my question as well. If there is no faith in unit middle management why have them? 
I know I may be simplifying this but it appears to me as micro management on a grand scale. Unit management should have the skills and leadership to asses their "special" cases that maybe had to go to a "special" team. They should have been granted authority to authorize payment on any applications that were straight forward or within their skill set.

I don't think this situation is unique to the RMS world either. I see often where supervisors and managers are very limited in their authority to manage (do thier jobs). From my experience this leads to a level of dissatisfaction for these personnel as they have worked very hard to get these positions and aren't able to do what they should be allowed to do.


----------



## dapaterson

Units do not have specialist knowledge and training on the details of severance pay.  All RMS clerks do not have that knowledge; and even when we had both Fin and Admin clerks not all Fin clerks had that knowledge and those skills.  Just like all Crewmwen are not qualified on tanks.  And all Pilots are not qualified on helicopters.


----------



## vandoos283

Here is the last update from 25 Nov 13, is there a new update?

The PIL Team has been fully operational for some months now and has received over 45,000 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 24,945 files or 55% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 21 March 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

THE TAX WAIVER FORM IS CONTAINED IN THE CFSP/REHABILITATION LEAVE ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVE AND MUST BE APPLIED FOR A SPECIFIC YEAR. IF YOU DID NOT RECEIVE PIL PAYMENT BEFORE 31 DEC 2013, YOU WILL HAVE TO SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST TO CRA AND FORWARD THE NEW FORM TO THE PIL TEAM. IF YOU DO NOT SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST, THE PROCESSING OF YOUR PIL REQUEST WILL BE DELAYED. YOU ARE REMINDED TO INCLUDE YOUR SERVICE NUMBER ON ALL DOCUMENTS. YOU CAN SEND YOUR NEW FORM DIRECTLY TO THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM ATPLUS)DMCA 4 PIL TEAM(AT SIGN)CMP DMCA(AT SIGN)OTTAWA-HULL 


THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 45 THOUSAND FILES TO AUDIT. THE AUDIT HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND PAYMENT, AUTHORIZED FOR OVER 23 THOUSAND FILES. THE TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON FILES RECEIVED 18 MAR 13. DMCA EXPECTS COMPLETION OF THE PIL OF CFSP PROJECT BY JUN 2014 


THE PIL TEAM PROVIDES A BI-MONTHLY SITREP LOCATED ON THEIR WEB SITE TO FIND OUT WHAT DATE THE PIL TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON AND HOW MANY FILES HAVE BEEN PROCESSED. PLEASE VISIT HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/DGMC/ADMIN/PIL-PTLI/INDEX-ENG.ASP 


YOUR PATIENCE IS APRECIATED


----------



## Navy_Pete

recceguy said:
			
		

> It would be nice if they provided an INTERNET address. There are tons of people, retired, Reserve, etc that are entitled to know what's happening, with their accounts, but have no access to the DIN.
> 
> There also seems to be too many http://'s in that link.



The intranet side has an internet link, which was broken... :facepalm:

Anyway, found it here; http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/rehab-leave.page?

I did notice while reading through it, if the form isn't included, they will simply deduct all the taxes from the payment, and this form is specifically for those that want to put some or all of the money directly into RRSPs.

I'm assuming then that the delay would only apply to those that had filled in the form for the 2013 tax year, vice everyone.  But then I could be wrong, as that is the logical conclusion vice the DND way.

For more, see the PiL FAQ http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/pay-increase-faq.page?#Q50


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> The intranet side has an internet link, which was broken... :facepalm:
> 
> Anyway, found it here; http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/rehab-leave.page?
> 
> I did notice while reading through it, if the form isn't included, they will simply deduct all the taxes from the payment, and this form is specifically for those that want to put some or all of the money directly into RRSPs.
> 
> I'm assuming then that the delay would only apply to those that had filled in the form for the 2013 tax year, vice everyone.  But then I could be wrong, as that is the logical conclusion vice the DND way.
> 
> For more, see the PiL FAQ http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/pay-increase-faq.page?#Q50



Cheers


----------



## SupersonicMax

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Units do not have specialist knowledge and training on the details of severance pay.  All RMS clerks do not have that knowledge; and even when we had both Fin and Admin clerks not all Fin clerks had that knowledge and those skills.  Just like all Crewmwen are not qualified on tanks.  And all Pilots are not qualified on helicopters.



Not a good analogy.  I doubt it costs millions and takes years to train someone to audit Severance Pay.  I would compare to a pilot staff job.  I am pretty confident that with minimal training, any pilot can do any pilot staff job. 

Why not train a few individual at each wing/base?  Knowing that this was coming from the Budget (9 months before we got the official word that we had to elect), it would have been easy to lead turn this by training the individuals and when times for PiL comes, we don't have a 2-year turn around time...  But I guess being proactive is not allowed...


----------



## PPCLI Guy

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Not a good analogy.  I doubt it costs millions and takes years to train someone to audit Severance Pay.  I would compare to a pilot staff job.  I am pretty confident that with minimal training, any pilot can do any pilot staff job.



You even sweat awesomeness, don't you....


----------



## SupersonicMax

I actually piss excellence in the morning


----------



## Pusser

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I doubt it costs millions and takes years to train someone to audit Severance Pay.  I would compare to a pilot staff job.  I am pretty confident that with minimal training, any pilot can do any pilot staff job.
> 
> Why not train a few individual at each wing/base?  Knowing that this was coming from the Budget (9 months before we got the official word that we had to elect), it would have been easy to lead turn this by training the individuals and when times for PiL comes, we don't have a 2-year turn around time...  But I guess being proactive is not allowed...



You just don't get it.  They're not auditing or calculating Severance Pay (or in this case Payment in Lieu - PIL).  That calculation is actually pretty simple (one week's pay at applicable rate X number of years of service).  What they're doing is confirming financial transactions over a member's entire career in order to ensure that the entire pay account is correct prior to final payout.  The system is trying to prevent a situation where they have to hunt someone down at a later date to either recover or return money from/to a former member.  The audit includes looking at pay, allowances, leave, any other thing to which one can attach a dollar sign.  Think this is simple?  Think again:

1) Misapplied pay incentives, incorrect effective dates, changes in regulations that were not properly applied can all affect this - and those are just the simple ones. 

2) Being on a specialist pay scale adds to the mess, especially if you became an officer before we introduced pay protection and you continued to receive your former trade's incentives and increases

3)  At one time at least, there were over 100 different ways to enter the CF as an officer, all of which affected pay.  Officers' pay accounts were notorious for being regularly screwed up, especially in the early years.

4)  Remember that week's leave you took 10 years ago that seemingly never got recorded, so you got a few extra days that year?  Well the leave pass has been found and so your leave account is now in deficit - those days of pay have to be recovered. 

Although a lot of these problems have been corrected over the years, anyone with any length of service will still be affected by some of these things and it all has to be checked.  We do it centrally to ensure consistency, because if you get it wrong, you can't just write it off.  The write-off regulations under the FAA are very strict (basically the recipient of an overpayment has to be dead with no estate in order to approve a write-off).  Also, won't you be pleased if the audit discovers an underpayment?  This happens too.

Perhaps a larger PIL Team could have speeded up the process, but that takes more people (of which there is not an endless supply to start with)  and costs more money.  A compromise had to be made.  Remember also that although the government is obligated to pay us the money, because we've earned it IAW the the terms of service to which we agreed upon enrolment, an argument could be made that they were under no obligation to pay us now.  They could have made us wait until release, because that too was part of the terms of service to which we all agreed upon enrolment.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Pusser said:
			
		

> They could have made us wait until release, because that too was part of the terms of service to which we all agreed upon enrolment.



Some of us are released................and still waiting.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Pusser said:
			
		

> You just don't get it.  They're not auditing or calculating Severance Pay (or in this case Payment in Lieu - PIL).  That calculation is actually pretty simple (one week's pay at applicable rate X number of years of service).  What they're doing is confirming financial transactions over a member's entire career in order to ensure that the entire pay account is correct prior to final payout.  The system is trying to prevent a situation where they have to hunt someone down at a later date to either recover or return money from/to a former member.  The audit includes looking at pay, allowances, leave, any other thing to which one can attach a dollar sign.  Think this is simple?  Think again:



So, they are verifying the calculation was correct iaw with what were actually entitled?  In other words, auditing our pay and benefits for our entire career.  And you are telling me that only a handful of people in Ottawa are qualified or can be qualified to do it?  There is absolutely no way to delegate the responsibility down to the bases in order to speed up the process (and train people in the process)?  I get it, there is a finite amount of ressource (people). Bit the more people are qualified, the faster it is going to go, even if it means they each dedicate less than their whole day, every day, to the process. Yup, they COULD have us waiting until release.  

It goes back to a decentralized execution.

I don't think it is acceptable by any standard to wait 2 years to see the money you are entitled to (that you could make interest on, and a lot of it).  Nor do I think it is acceptable to wait 6 months for a claim, but this is a separate issue...


----------



## dapaterson

So, let me see if I have this straight.

Your clerks are so far behind that it takes six months to be reimbursed for your claims.

Therefore, your solution for PiL is to add additional tasks to their workload, tasks for which they are not trained.


----------



## SupersonicMax

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, let me see if I have this straight.
> 
> Your clerks are so far behind that it takes six months to be reimbursed for your claims.
> 
> Therefore, your solution for PiL is to add additional tasks to their workload, tasks for which they are not trained.



Unit clerks are behind.  Not the Wing clerks.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> .  I am pretty confident that with minimal training, any pilot can do any pilot staff job.



Sorry - I tried - but I can't let this one go by.

I get it that you have been trained to operate a complex piece of machinery, and that you are justifiably proud of having mastered your craft.  Having said that, throughout your career, your lasting impact and true influence will be exercised while you are employed in non-flying jobs, or in true leadership roles.  Roles where your skill and effectiveness will affect more than just your self, your wingman, or the members of your six pack.  Roles where the needs of the institution and your subordinates trump your own.  Roles where you suborn your own ego and needs to serve the greater good.

I am not an operator of machinery like you, less my LAV of course.  I have spent my career bouncing between command and staff jobs, with the odd bit of education and professional development thrown in to round me out.  On reflection, I have had greater impact and substantially more influence in staff jobs than I have while in command, a truth that makes me slightly uncomfortable.  Uncomfortable or not, it is however true.  

Let us not sink to mindless and knee-jerk denigration of staff officers - they serve the institution to a greater extent than "operators" are willing to admit.


----------



## George Wallace

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Unit clerks are behind.  Not the Wing clerks.



 ???

If the originating source (Unit clerks) are behind, then the whole process will be behind.


----------



## 211RadOp

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> Here is the last update from 25 Nov 13, is there a new update?
> 
> The PIL Team has been fully operational for some months now and has received over 45,000 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 24,945 files or 55% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.
> 
> Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 21 March 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in.



Check you pay statements.  The PIL for some is on the Mid-Jan pay.


----------



## SupersonicMax

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Sorry - I tried - but I can't let this one go by.
> 
> I get it that you have been trained to operate a complex piece of machinery, and that you are justifiably proud of having mastered your craft.  Having said that, throughout your career, your lasting impact and true influence will be exercised while you are employed in non-flying jobs, or in true leadership roles.  Roles where your skill and effectiveness will affect more than just your self, your wingman, or the members of your six pack.  Roles where the needs of the institution and your subordinates trump your own.  Roles where you suborn your own ego and needs to serve the greater good.
> 
> I am not an operator of machinery like you, less my LAV of course.  I have spent my career bouncing between command and staff jobs, with the odd bit of education and professional development thrown in to round me out.  On reflection, I have had greater impact and substantially more influence in staff jobs than I have while in command, a truth that makes me slightly uncomfortable.  Uncomfortable or not, it is however true.
> 
> Let us not sink to mindless and knee-jerk denigration of staff officers - they serve the institution to a greater extent than "operators" are willing to admit.



I don't disagree with you.  Staff jobs are essential, but in the end, they are in support of the pointy end.  

I am pretty confident any infantry officer could do any infantry officer staff jobs, any MARS officer could do any MARS officer staff job, just like any pilot could do any Pilot staff jobs.

GW: PiL was actually procesed rather quickly at our unit and base.  Most are still waiting for the money.  My point is that delegation of tasks down to the base level would increase efficiency in the process.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> GW: PiL was actually procesed rather quickly at our unit and base.  Most are still waiting for the money.  My point is that delegation of tasks down to the base level would increase efficiency in the process.



I have to agree; the decision flowchart for "does file go to Ottawa" should have included more than "is member requesting more than 50% now?".  Also, Units should have been given direction to submit completed files weekly/semi-monthly/something; mine 'held onto mine' for 4 months.  :


----------



## stokerwes

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I have to agree; the decision flowchart for "does file go to Ottawa" should have included more than "is member requesting more than 50% now?".  _*Also, Units should have been given direction to submit completed files weekly/semi-monthly/something; mine 'held onto mine' for 4 months.  :*_



I think that may be the largest source of grief with this process. I still haven't been able to find/figure out why unit OR's kept files until the last day of election. People that elected on the first day should have had their files submitted in short order after that. Not several months later. I understand the OR has to put together a package for the team in Ottawa prior to a file being sent out but it shouldn't have taken four months for that to be done.
When personnel see or hear about the updates from Ottawa saying they are processing files received in March and they submitted their form in January to their unit OR. They are understandably confused as to why their file hasn't been processed. Then when they ask about it and find out the file sat in an inbox for three months before it even left the base. That just makes them angry.


----------



## Navy_Pete

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I don't disagree with you.  Staff jobs are essential, but in the end, they are in support of the pointy end.
> 
> I am pretty confident any infantry officer could do any infantry officer staff jobs, any MARS officer could do any MARS officer staff job, just like any pilot could do any Pilot staff jobs.


 ff topic:

I would strongly disagree, based on some of the pilots and MARS officers (and engineers and logs and...) that are currently employed in staff jobs.

Some people are fantastic operators or otherwise working at hands on but terrible at doing policy and procedural kind of stuff, or thinking in terms of 5, 10 years or longer time frame.  Alternately, some people are useless at the helm but excellent at thinking about how to set up an organization over 20 years to do things better.... Good leadership recognizes that and employs people properly.

Back on topic, I just don't think a full audit of every members service record is an effective use of resources.  The number of over/under payments should be minimal.  They've probably now spent years and millions to prevent hundreds of thousands in cumulative overpayments, most of which would never be noticed or worth the effort to recover.  Not very effective use of tax payer dollars.


----------



## Tibbson

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> ff topic:
> 
> Back on topic, I just don't think a full audit of every members service record is an effective use of resources.  The number of over/under payments should be minimal.  They've probably now spent years and millions to prevent hundreds of thousands in cumulative overpayments, most of which would never be noticed or worth the effort to recover.  Not very effective use of tax payer dollars.



I don't necessarily disagree with you however even minimal over payments can make big headlines in the Ottawa Citizen.  Since this topic of full audits came up I asked around and it was also done in other departments.  The fact they seemed to be able to do them faster could be due to a number of factors.


----------



## AirDet

I have to admit, my guys have been much happier since the updates have been published. This base will likely be one of the last to get paid out but at least they know there's a light at the end of the tunnel. I think their wives have stopped pestering them too. Thanks to the team for making everyone's lives a little easier.


----------



## RParachoniak

Hello all, I was just wondering about the Sev pay. I'm in Pet, Reg force, no disruption in service. Waiting on my 100% pay out still. I'm seeing things and not sure if its rumors and the confusion is overwhelming. I hear that anything under 10K was paid out already, if this is true, I have not yet been paid. What should I do? Or is this normal? Most my friends and neighbors have been paid out already.


----------



## vonGarvin

RParachoniak said:
			
		

> Hello all, I was just wondering about the Sev pay. I'm in Pet, Reg force, no disruption in service. Waiting on my 100% pay out still. I'm seeing things and not sure if its rumors and the confusion is overwhelming. I hear that anything under 10K was paid out already, if this is true, I have not yet been paid. What should I do? Or is this normal? Most my friends and neighbors have been paid out already.


Hi
Have a read up through this thread.  There is a lot of good info it in.  As far as I can read, they weren't paying out based on value.  So, in short, this is normal, and may be dependant upon your unit.  (For example, they may be processing e.g. 1 RCR long before starting with e.g. 3 RCR)


----------



## RParachoniak

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Hi
> Have a read up through this thread.  There is a lot of good info it in.  As far as I can read, they weren't paying out based on value.  So, in short, this is normal, and may be dependant upon your unit.  (For example, they may be processing e.g. 1 RCR long before starting with e.g. 3 RCR)



TY


----------



## AirDet

RParachoniak said:
			
		

> Hello all, I was just wondering about the Sev pay. I'm in Pet, Reg force, no disruption in service. Waiting on my 100% pay out still. I'm seeing things and not sure if its rumors and the confusion is overwhelming. I hear that anything under 10K was paid out already, if this is true, I have not yet been paid. What should I do? Or is this normal? Most my friends and neighbors have been paid out already.



Step 1)  Don't worry.

Step 2)  Take a quick trip to your OR and verify they sent your package and what date they sent it on. 

Step 3)  Logon to the DIN and go to the PiL Site. See what date they are currently working on. Remember they are processing by the order in which they received your application... in Ottawa. If your OR can't tell you when they sent your package then step 4.

Step 4) Send a short email to the Pil Team. They'll tell you if it was received and when. If they didn't receive it return to Step 1 and ask where it is in Step 2.

When in doubt look at Step 1.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Was told at our O-Group last night that we (my guess LFAA/37 CBG) should see the majority (50+1%) of us should see the Severance by May...all I would say is "Watch and Shoot"


----------



## Tibbson

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Was told at our O-Group last night that we (my guess LFAA/37 CBG) should see the majority (50+1%) of us should see the Severance by May...all I would say is "Watch and Shoot"



Yes, but did they state which May?  lol


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> Yes, but did they state which May?  lol



Actually yes....this year......


----------



## winks2872

Update:

As of January 22, 2014, the PIL Team has received over 45,000 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 29,951 files or 65.8% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 28 March 2013.


----------



## lcis00110

The CANFORGEN that was released 20 December states that it is expected the PiL project be completed by June 2014.  I'm still waiting for my payment as well as the vast majority of my unit.  Our clerk sent in the files as she received them.  This is a VERY slow process, and as an esteemed colleague had forementioned... Don't Worry!!!


----------



## CountDC

hmmm - most of ours have been paid.  Why the clks in some units held onto them baffles me as both briefings I attended by the Ottawa staff they did mention to send the files and not hold onto them.  Maybe those units that didn't listen were the ones that didn't consider it important enough to send a clerk to the briefings?


----------



## DAA

CountDC said:
			
		

> hmmm - most of ours have been paid.  Why the clks in some units held onto them baffles me as both briefings I attended by the Ottawa staff they did mention to send the files and not hold onto them.  Maybe those units that didn't listen were the ones that didn't consider it important enough to send a clerk to the briefings?



I get the feeling that retention of the applications and submission in bulk at a later date was a local CoC decision, obviously not well thought out.


----------



## AirDet

I know some of the clerks in our BOR were feeling overwhelmed with the volume of work thrust upon them. It would make sense for their supervisors to develop a plan to mitigate the stress on their staff. This is part of the reason they bulk submitted end of April.

Personally, I think it's unfair to assign any blame to this base or any other for waiting so long. They made a call based on the situation at the time. This is the nature of what we do.


----------



## vandoos283

As of February 3, 2014, the PIL Team has received over 45,000 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 31,754 files or 69.76% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 4 April 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in.


----------



## lcis00110

Well, for myself... it really does not feel good and the feeling keeps getting worse each month I don't get paid.  The reason the feeling is bad is because constant questions to myself that don't have answers.  Questions such as: Did I fill out my election form correctly?  Did my clerk file the proper paperwork?  Is there a problem with my file that the PiL Team received.... etc etc etc.  Without bothering the Team, and without pestering the clerks for an update, what's a guy to do but to keep on waiting with patience?  As I'm still the 30% that's not paid yet... patience continues to grow thinner and thinner.

My question to everyone else who has not been paid out yet is.... how are you feeling about this at this point in the process?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

lcis00110 said:
			
		

> Well, for myself... it really does not feel good and the feeling keeps getting worse each month I don't get paid.  The reason the feeling is bad is because constant questions to myself that don't have answers.  Questions such as: Did I fill out my election form correctly?  Did my clerk file the proper paperwork?  Is there a problem with my file that the PiL Team received.... etc etc etc.  Without bothering the Team, and without pestering the clerks for an update, what's a guy to do but to keep on waiting with patience?  As I'm still the 30% that's not paid yet... patience continues to grow thinner and thinner.
> 
> My question to everyone else who has not been paid out yet is.... how are you feeling about this at this point in the process?



Paranoid man, paranoid. I can't sleep. I'm breaking out in sweats. Bad dreams. Overmedicating. Depressed and snapping at people. My skin is crawling. I'm hearing voices but they're not answering my questions the way I want.

Oh wait, sorry, thought I was in the Recruiting threads.

As to the PIL. I can't change the process. I can't speed it up. I can't get emails and phone calls returned. So I wait.

It's out of my hands, there's nothing to be done but wait for my number to come up. 

Ergo, I don't worry about something that's not in my control.


----------



## AirDet

recceguy said:
			
		

> Paranoid man, paranoid. I can't sleep. I'm breaking out in sweats. Bad dreams. Overmedicating. Depressed and snapping at people. My skin is crawling. I'm hearing voices but they're not answering my questions the way I want.
> 
> Oh wait, sorry, thought I was in the Recruiting threads.
> 
> As to the PIL. I can't change the process. I can't speed it up. I can't get emails and phone calls returned. So I wait.
> 
> It's out of my hands, there's nothing to be done but wait for my number to come up.
> 
> Ergo, I don't worry about something that's not in my control.



4 of the 5 voices in my head agree with you. >


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> Paranoid man, paranoid. I can't sleep. I'm breaking out in sweats. Bad dreams. Overmedicating. Depressed and snapping at people. My skin is crawling. I'm hearing voices but they're not answering my questions the way I want.......................................



Yup!  You have heard it before:  "Your Cheque is in the Mail."


----------



## lcis00110

Sarcasm... LOVE IT!!!   ;D


----------



## upandatom

lcis00110 said:
			
		

> Well, for myself... it really does not feel good and the feeling keeps getting worse each month I don't get paid.  The reason the feeling is bad is because constant questions to myself that don't have answers.  Questions such as: Did I fill out my election form correctly?  Did my clerk file the proper paperwork?  Is there a problem with my file that the PiL Team received.... etc etc etc.  Without bothering the Team, and without pestering the clerks for an update, what's a guy to do but to keep on waiting with patience?  As I'm still the 30% that's not paid yet... patience continues to grow thinner and thinner.
> 
> My question to everyone else who has not been paid out yet is.... how are you feeling about this at this point in the process?



I agree, 
As i am one of the 4 left at my unit that hasnt been paid yet, and its not an alphabetical issue. ( Several "Y"s have recieved it) 

IT is a piss off and annoying, and hopefully some lessons were learned from this.......

this was received recently;

Total Reg Force Payments:  22,449 authorized - $264,206,993.24				
Total Res Force Payments: 8,951 authorized - $80,114,936.76				

Total of 31,400 Payments authorized - $344,321,930.00				

There are 10,541 Reg Force files to be reviewed with an estimated payout of $146,687,241.02				
There are 3,568 Res Force files to be reviewed with an estimated payout of $36,175,887.83				
Total of 14,109 payouts remaining for a estimated $182,863,128.85				

All files should be out for payment by end May 2014.


Thats umm so pretty heavy numbers there.......


----------



## PPCLI Guy

Those numbers tell me that we had a $525M unfunded liability on the books, which is generally a bad thing.  

Does anyone know the source of these funds?  Does this come out of in-year monies?


----------



## dapaterson

The liability was greater, as many folks did not take the PiL.  So there is still a multi-million future bill out there.

In the past, severance was done on a pay as you go basis from in year funds.  I believe last FY a large amount was set aside for PiL, but I do not know the details.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

So, PiL is about paying down debt so we have more money for groceries.  I like it.


----------



## DAA

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> So, PiL is about paying down debt so we have more money for groceries.  I like it.



Not paying down debt but rather falling inline with the Public Service while reducing future liabilities, which is what Severance pay amounts to.  So by establishing an advanced payout, based on a fixed date, the long term liability is reduced.  People who elected PiL, receive their payments based on their individual pay rate in effect on 28 Feb 12 (I think, correct me if I am wrong).  Those who decided not to elect PiL, will still receive "earned" severance pay, however, it will be paid out at the time of release, based on their rate of pay when they release.

As this is paid through the members pay accounts, I can only assume it would come from the "payroll" allocation budget, unless a separate fin coding was used.


----------



## dapaterson

Different fin coding.  Though the individual who manages the Reg F pay account was involved, as was the individual who manages the corproate Res F accounts.


----------



## upandatom

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The liability was greater, as many folks did not take the PiL.  So there is still a multi-million future bill out there.
> 
> In the past, severance was done on a pay as you go basis from in year funds.  I believe last FY a large amount was set aside for PiL, but I do not know the details.



You are right with that, I remember hearing/reading about how the MND was made to look like a dumbass in front of parliament because one of his staff made a mistake with the paperwork/reasoning for asking for some money to pay severance pay or whatever.


----------



## AirDet

For those who haven't received their PiL yet the team published another update today. As of 17 Feb 2014 they are working on files received on 9 April 2013. They are now 3/4 complete.


----------



## vandoos283

As of February 17, 2014, the PIL Team has received over 45,500 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 33,428 files or 73.4% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

At their current rate, they will have completed 45116 out of 45500 files ( 99.22%) on 26 May 14.


----------



## George Wallace

Nice.  Now when are they going to empty out their mail boxes?  I have a letter from them and phoned to ask why my particulars are incorrect, such as my initials and whether they are indeed handling my file or someone else's?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Nice.  Now when are they going to empty out their mail boxes?  I have a letter from them and phoned to ask why my particulars are incorrect, such as my initials and whether they are indeed handling my file or someone else's?



There were a number of things wrong in my letter also. Like getting through to one of the phone #'s at the bottom, only to be told the number is for an incorrect department and isn't supposed to be on the letter, my release date was wrong, etc :

They also tried to tell me that my 'return of pension contributions' from the 80's was a severance payout and not my own money :facepalm:


----------



## stokerwes

My file was received in Feb 2012 by the PIL team, I have the 729.
I recently sent them an email after their routine update stating they were processing files received in April 2012.
The reply I received was that they indeed had my file and it is either being processed or has been processed.
Then in the same paragraph I was told I should receive payout NLT than June.
That followed by the canned PIL response, we have completed XXX files and on and on.
So now I am really confused. My file is there. It may have been processed or not processed? Wouldn't that be in their data base?
And if they are working on files received in April, why hasn't mine been completed?
I contacted my BOR and the PIL team has not asked for any additional information regarding my files so I am assuming everything is in order.
I really hope that my file, along with many others I know in similar situations, is not sitting in some outbox forgotten about.
Alas all I can do is wait until June and then I might receive my payout.
The fact that there is no recourse or a way to find a definitive answer, from anyone, is the most frustrating thing.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I retired in July 13. I was told last week, by the team, not to expect a cheque until at least Sept 14.

That was before I mentioned all the mistakes they had in my audit letter. Now they are in the process of requesting all of my paperwork and records from the archives again, to review and reaudit.

That has pushed my payout further. I'll be lucky to get it now in 2014.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

;D


----------



## AirDet

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> At their current rate, they will have completed 45116 out of 45500 files ( 99.22%) on 26 May 14.



I'll bet those last 400 will be some really pee'd off troops!  :clubinhand:


----------



## Loachman

I expect to be one of them. I am being a little bit annoyed every day, in order to avoid being a lot annoyed on one day.


----------



## Tibbson

Loachman said:
			
		

> I expect to be one of them. I am being a little bit annoyed every day, in order to avoid being a lot annoyed on one day.



Yeah, as much as I've tried to be patient and wait its getting harder when everyone else in my workplace has theirs but I'm still waiting for mine to be completed.  I understand because it's quite large, essentially max'd out, but for the same reason (and an impending posting and home purchase) I'd like it to be over soon.


----------



## stokerwes

recceguy said:
			
		

> I retired in July 13. I was told last week, by the team, not to expect a cheque until at least Sept 14.
> 
> That was before I mentioned all the mistakes they had in my audit letter. Now they are in the process of requesting all of my paperwork and records from the archives again, to review and reaudit.
> 
> That has pushed my payout further. I'll be lucky to get it now in 2014.


Let the audits of the audits begin  ;D, I have been stuck in that cycle before. Good luck hope you get it sooner rather than later.


----------



## kratz

I retired this month. 
I suspect that I'll be lucky to see my PIL by 2020.


----------



## George Wallace

kratz said:
			
		

> I retired this month.
> I suspect that I'll be lucky to see my PIL by 2020.



It may not even buy a case of beer by that date.


----------



## dapaterson

kratz said:
			
		

> I retired this month.
> I suspect that I'll be lucky to see my PIL by 2020.



Did you elect PiL, or are you taking severance?  If it's severance, not PiL, you can roll over $2K per year into RRSPs above your limit for each year orpartial year of service prior to 1996.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Just got mine today, credited with 12.25 years of servance and was taxed at 22%...not too bad....


----------



## SupersonicMax

Wait for the taxman this time next year!  Don't spend it all...


----------



## Nfld Sapper

I have the OR take more taxes out than I really need to cover for extended Class B time so according to them I should be OK.


----------



## Sparkplugs

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I have the OR take more taxes out than I really need to cover for extended Class B time so according to them I should be OK.



According to the OR, I had them take out extra taxes while I was on MATA leave, and they said it would be plenty. Funny thing, I ended up owing four grand come tax time. That stung with a new baby!

Someday, my PIL will come....


----------



## stokerwes

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> I have the OR take more taxes out than I really need to cover for extended Class B time so according to them I should be OK.


I would go to the CRA website or an accountant to see how much taxes need to be deducted, rather than rely on the OR, no offence to any OR, but taxes are not their specialty.

And someday I might get my PIL it's only been 14 months I don't want to rush things.  :-\


----------



## AirDet

Petawawa told their people to expect 45 to 50 % withheld to prevent people having to owe come tax time.


----------



## George Wallace

I am still waiting for the usual "Your Cheque is in the Mail", so I guess I have even longer to wait.


----------



## AirDet

Okay... your check is in the mail.

Feel better now? >


----------



## vandoos283

As of March 4, 2014, the PIL Team has received over 45,500 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 35,818 files or 78.6% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 19 April 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in.


----------



## dapaterson

Sparkplugs said:
			
		

> According to the OR, I had them take out extra taxes while I was on MATA leave, and they said it would be plenty. Funny thing, I ended up owing four grand come tax time. That stung with a new baby!
> 
> Someday, my PIL will come....



Just saw this - given that a good chunk of your income was EI, I suspect that's why you took the hit - the tax held back from your EI wouldn't have considered your military pay in the calendar years you received it, so they withheld too little - even the extra tax from the top-up wasn't enough.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> As of March 4, 2014, the PIL Team has received over 45,500 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 35,818 files or 78.6% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.
> 
> Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 19 April 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in.



I took the full amount payable on retirement.

I released in July 13. I've already been audited....twice. My paperwork is totally complete, except for the payout.

My last call to them, they indicated that I would probably receive payment in Sept 14, however, because of the second audit, that may get pushed back even further. :rofl:

The ridiculousness of the whole fiasco amazes me and makes me giggle.

.............and apparently, according to my source there, all the Reservists that were supposed to work at Christmas to clear the Reserve backlog, didn't materialize. :dunno:

Funny dat.


----------



## vandoos283

.............and apparently, according to my source there, all the Reservists that were supposed to work at Christmas to clear the Reserve backlog, didn't materialize. :dunno:

 Shocking!!! I feel you pain.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> .............and apparently, according to my source there, all the Reservists that were supposed to work at Christmas to clear the Reserve backlog, didn't materialize. :dunno:
> 
> Shocking!!! I feel you pain.



No worries. I don't have any pain, at least from this clusterfuck. I've also learned, long ago, that dealing with the CAF financial bureaucracy is like pushing a string up a sandy hill. It's even worse when you are no longer in uniform. No one is going to move any faster, so there's no sense getting upset about it.


----------



## Sparkplugs

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Just saw this - given that a good chunk of your income was EI, I suspect that's why you took the hit - the tax held back from your EI wouldn't have considered your military pay in the calendar years you received it, so they withheld too little - even the extra tax from the top-up wasn't enough.



I had them take off an extra few hundred on top of what they suggested, because I knew EI was only taxed at 10%. Still wasn't enough, obviously! Bah well, you live, you learn, and one kid is enough for me, so I won't have to go through that again!


----------



## George Wallace

recceguy said:
			
		

> I took the full amount payable on retirement.
> 
> I released in July 13. I've already been audited....twice. My paperwork is totally complete, except for the payout.
> 
> My last call to them, they indicated that I would probably receive payment in Sept 14, however, because of the second audit, that may get pushed back even further. :rofl:
> 
> The ridiculousness of the whole fiasco amazes me and makes me giggle.
> 
> .............and apparently, according to my source there, all the Reservists that were supposed to work at Christmas to clear the Reserve backlog, didn't materialize. :dunno:
> 
> Funny dat.



I wonder if you and I will receive those $.01 cheques from Supply and Services two years after the PIL is paid out......   >


----------



## Fishbone Jones

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I wonder if you and I will receive those $.01 cheques from Supply and Services two years after the PIL is paid out......   >



They found a $2000 dollar severance, for 11 years served, that they gave me when I got out in '83. I was looking at 23 years Reserve x MWO(3), so around $31,000. However, as you may not exceed 30 years of severance they docked my Reserve time.

They reduced my 23 years Res down to 19 (+ 11 = 30 years).

So, 11 years Reg service grossed me a grand total of $2000 in severance.

The reduction from 23 down to 19 has cost me $5370

11 years _was _worth $2000, now 4 years is worth $5370. Even with inflation it's comical :facepalm:

C'est la vie, c'est la guerre, c'est la pomme de terre  :dunno:

 ;D


----------



## Nfld Sapper

recceguy said:
			
		

> They found a $2000 dollar severance, for 11 years served, that they gave me when I got out in '83. I was looking at 23 years Reserve x MWO(3), so around $31,000. However, as you may not exceed 30 years of severance they docked my Reserve time.
> 
> They reduced my 23 years Res down to 19 (+ 11 = 30 years).
> 
> So, 11 years Reg service grossed me a grand total of $2000 in severance.
> 
> The reduction from 23 down to 19 has cost me $5370
> 
> 11 years _was _worth $2000, now 4 years is worth $5370. Even with inflation it's comical :facepalm:
> 
> C'est la vie, c'est la guerre, c'est la pomme de terre  :dunno:
> 
> ;D



Wow... I got over 12k for 12.25 yrs of reserve service .......


----------



## Fishbone Jones

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Wow... I got over 12k for 12.25 yrs of reserve service .......



That 11 years that they gave me $2000 for was '71 to '83.

A little different back then.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

touche... ;D


----------



## jollyjacktar

recceguy said:
			
		

> That 11 years that they gave me $2000 for was '71 to '83.
> 
> A little different back then.



Hold on... Was your time between Res and Reg broken or continuous?  I was told by my RMS folks that as my Res time was from 80-85 and my Reg time was from 89-present I couldn't get Jack for the Res time.  Were they mistaken and do I have some recourse perhaps?


----------



## dapaterson

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Hold on... Was your time between Res and Reg broken or continuous?  I was told by my RMS folks that as my Res time was from 80-85 and my Reg time was from 89-present I couldn't get Jack for the Res time.  Were they mistaken and do I have some recourse perhaps?



Different issues.  CFSP is for continuous service, but you are capped at a maximum of 30 years lifetime.  Your 4 year hiatus means the 80-85 period doesn't count.

On the other hand, if you end up released medically (or due to some future FRP) you'd get additional CFSP up to your release date or 30 years.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Yes, I know that if I leave broken I will be topped up to the end date.  I _was_ hoping that perhaps my RMS Clerk of the time was mistaken, but, alas my luck still holds.   :'(   Thanks for the confirmation anyhow.


----------



## winks2872

recceguy said:
			
		

> That 11 years that they gave me $2000 for was '71 to '83.
> 
> A little different back then.



Yes but in 1983 you could have bought a new car for 2000$   ;D ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones

winks2872 said:
			
		

> Yes but in 1983 you could have bought a new car for 2000$   ;D ;D



Actually, I bought a new Cordoba in 77 and it cost $6700.


----------



## winks2872

recceguy said:
			
		

> Actually, I bought a new Cordoba in 77 and it cost $6700.



That is awesome! If only today... Of course we couldn't afford the gas


----------



## smale436

winks2872 said:
			
		

> That is awesome! If only today... Of course we couldn't afford the gas



That's but a minor detail when you are surrounded in soft, rich, corinthian leather.


----------



## Tibbson

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Hold on... Was your time between Res and Reg broken or continuous?  I was told by my RMS folks that as my Res time was from 80-85 and my Reg time was from 89-present I couldn't get Jack for the Res time.  Were they mistaken and do I have some recourse perhaps?



When I went from the Reserves to the Regs back in the 80s I didn't transfer.  I find out now that I technically released from the Reserves and rejoined the Regs a full 11 days later.  Because of that they told me my reserve time wouldn't count.  Doesn't make much of a difference though because I've almost maxed out at 30 in reg force time anyway but it would have been nice to hit that number.  

Still waiting too so I figure I'll need to put a rider on my will for where the money goes because I have a feeling old age will get me before the cheque does.


----------



## mariomike

Schindler's lift said:
			
		

> Doesn't make much of a difference though because I've almost maxed out at 30 in reg force time anyway but it would have been nice to hit that number.



I thought Regular Force members can accumulate up to 35 years of pensionable service?
http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pensions/peserv-servpe-eng.asp#eli-adm4


----------



## DAA

mariomike said:
			
		

> I thought Regular Force members can accumulate up to 35 years of pensionable service?
> http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/pensions/peserv-servpe-eng.asp#eli-adm4



I do believe he is referring to "severance" benefits, which are capped at "30 years of service".


----------



## mariomike

DAA said:
			
		

> I do believe he is referring to "severance" benefits, which are capped at "30 years of service".



Thanks, DAA.


----------



## misratah500

Due to deployment my PIL paperwork only got into my OR a week prior to the deadline last year. They swore it wasn't an issue so close to the deadline cause as long as it was stamped on a date before the deadline it was good. I've seen almost everyone from my previous unit paid out and I still don't have a whiff yet.

Is there anyway to contact the Severance pay people to make sure they got my file. I have a buddy at work who's OR in Gagetown said they put the paperwork in and they didn't and he had to re do it all. I'm just worried my stuff didn't get to Ottawa. 

I don't have alot of faith in my current OR considering they told me I just need to wait. And they tend to screw up other things like memo's for my guys constantly go misisng. 

Do they have an email or anything. I just want to know they got it.


----------



## Occam

I'm fairly certain I read a message or two on the subject of contact with the PIL cell, and what I took away from it was that members are not to contact the PIL cell directly.  Even ORs have very specific criteria for contacting the PIL cell.  It's clear they want to be processing applications, and not answering phones unless it's absolutely necessary.

Mods, good candidate for a move to this thread.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

You can contact them to confirm your file was received.  I did, others I know have.  They will confirm receipt but not any payment info.


----------



## Occam

Well, there ya go.   ;D

From http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/pay-increase-faq.page

64. Where can members find more information?

Supplemental information may also be available by contacting the DMCA 4 PiL Team at: dmca-pil_of_cfsp-dacm-ptl_de_idfc@forces.gc.ca.


----------



## Tibbson

misratah500 said:
			
		

> Due to deployment my PIL paperwork only got into my OR a week prior to the deadline last year. They swore it wasn't an issue so close to the deadline cause as long as it was stamped on a date before the deadline it was good. I've seen almost everyone from my previous unit paid out and I still don't have a whiff yet.
> 
> Is there anyway to contact the Severance pay people to make sure they got my file. I have a buddy at work who's OR in Gagetown said they put the paperwork in and they didn't and he had to re do it all. I'm just worried my stuff didn't get to Ottawa.
> 
> I don't have alot of faith in my current OR considering they told me I just need to wait. And they tend to screw up other things like memo's for my guys constantly go misisng.
> 
> Do they have an email or anything. I just want to know they got it.



I emailed and asked them and they were able to confirm they had my file and it would eventually be processed.  They won't provide details or anything but they will at least confirm they have it.


----------



## misratah500

Thanks. I don't care about payment info, I just want to know that they received it.


----------



## vandoos283

As of March 17, 2014, the PIL Team has received over 45,500 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 37,671 files or 82.6% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 26 April 2013.


----------



## AirDet

For the members who belong to bases that mass submitted at the very end, these updates are amazing. With only 8 thousand file left the team must be getting excited.


----------



## Tibbson

AirDet said:
			
		

> For the members who belong to bases that mass submitted at the very end, these updates are amazing. With only 8 thousand file left the team must be getting excited.



As one of the 8000, they are not half as excited as I'm getting.  lol


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Just because they complete your audit, doesn't mean you'll be seeing anything soon 

I also wouldn't be looking at their posting saying they are up to April now. Mine went in last July and it's been done twice. The last time, it was completed on 31 Jan 2014.

They told me not to expect payment until sometime after Sept 2014. Left bracket but no right  :alone:


----------



## DAA

AirDet said:
			
		

> For the members who belong to bases that mass submitted at the very end,



Given the direction provided and the writing on the wall, I just can't believe that anyone did that.

You must be.............     :facepalm:


----------



## AirDet

DAA said:
			
		

> Given the direction provided and the writing on the wall, I just can't believe that anyone did that.
> 
> You must be.............     :facepalm:



What can I say; Trenton has a different way of doing things. I've been here 3 years, 11 months, and 22 days and I still haven't gotten used to their ways.


----------



## CountDC

DAA said:
			
		

> Given the direction provided and the writing on the wall, I just can't believe that anyone did that.
> 
> You must be.............     :facepalm:



I can - my support unit was doing absolutely nothing until I mentioned it to them and from checking around there are several reserve units that did the bulk send too.  Mine came in taxed at approx 30% with a minor error of 12 days time credit missing (for some reason they have a lwop that they created out of nothing).  In the big scheme I decided I was lucky and it wasn't worth the effort to fix such a small point. Besides I am curious to see if the release audit down the road will pick it up.


----------



## AirDet

We now know that 8Wing submitted their people's PiL documentation between 20 April and June. I can't imagine how peeved those that submitted on day one must feel. That means that at least half of the 8000 remaining files to process are from Trenton. :brickwall:

For an air force base I would have expected better for our people. :deadhorse:


----------



## DAA

AirDet said:
			
		

> We now know that 8Wing submitted their people's PiL documentation between 20 April and June. I can't imagine how peeved those that submitted on day one must feel. That means that at least half of the 8000 remaining files to process are from Trenton. :brickwall:
> 
> For an air force base I would have expected better for our people. :deadhorse:



And it wasn't like it was rocket science here.  The briefings, emails and updates that were sent around, were pretty specific, especially when they emphasized the point "Submissions will be processed in the order they are received."

Shoot, even I can figure out just what that means.      :facepalm:


----------



## vandoos283

As of March 31, 2014, the PIL Team has received over 45,500 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 40,065 files or 87.8% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 7 May 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the


----------



## SpyGuy999

Just received notice today that my PIL is ready to be paid out. I submitted in St-Jean on the last day possible and asked for 100% payout.  I have a reserve-regular-reserve-regular service record, so was fairly complicated but provided all material requested to confirm continuous service. I had done an ATI pull of my former service documents held in the National Archives a few years ago for another matter, so was able to act as if prepared.

Only issue: PIL printout identified almost 3 years of denied eligible service because of time with the Canadian Rangers. Except I never served with the Canadian Rangers. I did however serve with the Queen's York Rangers in Toronto and can only assume at this stage, someone has confused the two.

Waiting to find out if rectifying this error is going to significantly delay my payout.


----------



## ArmyRick

Too bad it has taken this long. Still waiting. Only a few from my regiment have received payout. Sometimes I admire the way private businesses function better and more efficiently than government.


----------



## George Wallace

SpyGuy999 said:
			
		

> Only issue: PIL printout identified almost 3 years of denied eligible service because of time with the Canadian Rangers. Except I never served with the Canadian Rangers. I did however serve with the Queen's York Rangers in Toronto and can only assume at this stage, someone has confused the two.
> 
> Waiting to find out if rectifying this error is going to significantly delay my payout.



Not impressed.  I received a letter from them that they had amended my payout to four years, which is more than I expected.  I do believe they are making a great deal of errors, as the letter and envelope both had my initials wrong.  I tried calling their number to verify that they had the correct person in dealing with me and not have mistaken me with someone else, but all their voice mail boxes are full.  Then last night, I was informed that there are some serious issues within the PIL team, and several members of the team have left.  Not encouraging news on any of level as to their doing a thorough job.  Some day, perhaps, my cheque will be in the mail...........I have had a long military career, so I know what this all means.


----------



## x_para76

I contacted the PIL folks this week and was told that they were just wrapping up files from December 2012. With my release date being Feb 2013 I'm not anticipating any payout before the summer.


----------



## Tibbson

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not impressed.  I received a letter from them that they had amended my payout to four years, which is more than I expected.  I do believe they are making a great deal of errors, as the letter and envelope both had my initials wrong.  I tried calling their number to verify that they had the correct person in dealing with me and not have mistaken me with someone else, but all their voice mail boxes are full.  Then last night, I was informed that there are some serious issues within the PIL team, and several members of the team have left.  Not encouraging news on any of level as to their doing a thorough job.  Some day, perhaps, my cheque will be in the mail...........I have had a long military career, so I know what this all means.



I was just talking to my CO today and he was shocked that two of us are still waiting since everyone else he knew of had gotten theirs already.  Mind you, to be fair to him, we are a distributed Unit across the country and he was visiting for the week so it's not like he has sight of individual matters.  Since he's situated within the Borg he was able to confirm that there are a lot of grown ups who are not impressed with the way things have gone with the payouts but at the same time it's not like any lessons learned will be of use since I can't see a similar exercise taking place in the future.  Oh well, when it finely comes in I'll either have the executor of my estate distribute it to my kids or, if I haven't died of old age by the time I get it, I'll treat my wife and I to a nice trip.


----------



## dapaterson

Given the tax rates,



			
				Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> I'll treat my wife and I to a nice trip.



I'm assuming you mean to Timmies.


----------



## Tibbson

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Given the tax rates,
> 
> I'm assuming you mean to Timmies.



I'm not overly concerned.  I've maxed out at the 30 year top payment level so I WILL send her out to Timmies but only while I search online for a nice cruise or something.  lol


----------



## stokerwes

Has anyone in Kingston recieved their PIL yet? I submitted mine in Dec, it made it to Ottawa in Feb due to mass submission. I tried to contact the PIL team but just keep getting the canned response.


----------



## Sparkplugs

Spoke to the OR in Trenton on Thursday, they told me they had about four thousand files back from the PIL team, and that they were about halfway through inputting them into the pay system here. My husband is getting his Mid-April, mine's still nowhere to be seen. Mine was simple, under 10 G's, so my fingers are still crossed.


----------



## PuckChaser

stokerwes said:
			
		

> Has anyone in Kingston recieved their PIL yet? I submitted mine in Dec, it made it to Ottawa in Feb due to mass submission. I tried to contact the PIL team but just keep getting the canned response.



Got mine in January.


----------



## vandoos283

As of April 14, 2014, the PIL Team has received over 45,500 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 42,268 files or 92.6% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 4 June 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the


----------



## vandoos283

Kindly if someone can answer this: Does the Pil team send some kind of email when they actually done auditing the files and,  they are sent for payments? Do they provide a time frame such as; you payment will be made within X amount of days, thank you.


----------



## dapaterson

No.  The PiL team will not contact you.


----------



## vandoos283

Ack, thank you!


----------



## Tibbson

vandoos283 said:
			
		

> Kindly if someone can answer this: Does the Pil team send some kind of email when they actually done auditing the files and,  they are sent for payments? Do they provide a time frame such as; you payment will be made within X amount of days, thank you.



From what I have seen in the case of others in my ofice (I'm one of he lucky 7.4% that are waiting still) once they they are finished doing the voodoo they do you may hear from them but you most likely will not.  Most in my office were just pleasently surprised when checking their pay statement because notice for payment went right to the pay office.  In the case of two of our pers the notice was mistakenly sent to our OR so they heard about it that way but thats the anomaly.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

They completed my audit some time ago. They also told me not to expect any money until, at least, September 2014.


----------



## vandoos283

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> From what I have seen in the case of others in my ofice (I'm one of he lucky 7.4% that are waiting still) once they they are finished doing the voodoo they do you may hear from them but you most likely will not.  Most in my office were just pleasently surprised when checking their pay statement because notice for payment went right to the pay office.  In the case of two of our pers the notice was mistakenly sent to our OR so they heard about it that way but thats the anomaly.




Many thanks!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I received notification from the WOR folks, as well, vice the PIL team.  Likely that the PIL team folks don't have global access to CCPS or "alt pon" to your pay or whatever it is called, so sending to BOR/WOR/URS makes sense for actual payment via CCPS.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Same with RPSR, the pay clerks will see who is getting PIL on the pay runs......


----------



## dapaterson

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Same with RPSR, the pay clerks will see who is getting PIL on the pay runs......



Actually, completely different.

In CCPS, it is the local Pay Office that inputs the transaction to pay out PiL.

In RPSR, the transaction is input centrally at DMPAP in Ottawa.


----------



## Tibbson

recceguy said:
			
		

> They completed my audit some time ago. They also told me not to expect any money until, at least, September 2014.



Hmmm, curious.  I was at the BOR a few weeks ago when some PIL docs came in and the clerk noted they do their best to get it on the next pay.  The lack of consistency never ceases to amaze.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Actually, completely different.
> 
> In CCPS, it is the local Pay Office that inputs the transaction to pay out PiL.
> 
> In RPSR, the transaction is input centrally at DMPAP in Ottawa.



Ok, all I know is that my pay clerks knew before I did that....


----------



## winks2872

Recieved my payout email today. Also the PIL site has been updated as below:

As of April 30, 2014, the PIL Team has received 45,652 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 44,364 files or 97.14% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received in September 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in.


----------



## Tibbson

My pay office got my PIL docs back, of course two days befor mid month pay was done, so I have to wait till end month but at least the end is in sight.


----------



## Crispy Bacon

Update today:



> CANFORGEN 075/14 CMP 033/14 051526Z MAY 14
> PIL OF CFSP PROCESS - REMINDERS
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 45 THOUSAND FILES TO AUDIT. AUDIT HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND PAYMENT AUTHORIZED ON OVER 44 THOUSAND FILES, OR MORE THAN NINETY EIGHT PERCENT. THE TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON FILES RECEIVED ON 30 SEPTEMBER 2013
> 
> THE PIL TEAM PROVIDES A BI-MONTHLY SIT REP LOCATED ON THEIR WEB SITE. TO FIND OUT WHAT DATE THE PIL TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON AND HOW MANY FILES HAVE BEEN PROCESSED. PLEASE VISIT http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgmc/admin/pil-ptli/index-eng.asp
> *
> IF YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED YOUR PAYMENT OR AN UPDATE REGARDING YOUR PIL, PLEASE CONTACT YOUR UNIT ORDERLY ROOM SO THEY CAN DETERMINE WHEN YOUR PIL FILE HAS BEEN SENT FOR AUDIT
> *
> ONCE THE PIL TEAM COMPLETES THE AUDIT, THE FILE IS RETURNED FOR PAYMENT PROCESSING TO THE MOST RECENT POSTED UNIT (FOR REG F PERS), OR DMPAP (IF MBR WAS SERVING IN THE P RES ON 29 FEBRUARY 2012). PAYMENTS WILL APPEAR ON THE MEMBER S REGULAR PAY. IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THERE WILL BE A LAG TIME FROM THE DATE THE PIL TEAM COMPLETES THE AUDIT PROCESS AND THE DATE THE PAYMENT IS PROCESSED. THE PIL TEAM HAS NO CONTROL OF OR ACCESS TO HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE FOR A PAYMENT TO BE PROCESSED
> 
> THE PIL TEAM IS EXPECTED TO COMPLETE THE AUDIT OF ALL FILES BY THE END OF MAY 2014, SUBJECT TO CHANGE DUE TO UNFORSEEN CIRCUMSTANCES (COMPLEX FILES/MISSING PAPERWORK), AND ALL PAYMENTS ARE EXPECTED TO BE PROCESSED BY NOVEMBER 2014
> *
> IF YOU NEED TO CONTACT THE PIL TEAM PLEASE SEND AN EMAIL TO (PLUS)DMCA 4 PIL TEAM(AT SIGN)CMP DMCA(AT SIGN)OTTAWA-HULL OR EXTERNALLY VIA DMCA-PIL(UNDERSCORE)OF(UNDERSCORE)CFSP-DACM-PTL(UNDERSCORE)DE(UNDERS CORE)IDFC(AT SIGN)FORCES.GC.CA. INCLUDE YOUR SERVICE NUMBER WITH YOUR QUERY
> *
> YOUR CONTINUED PATIENCE AND SUPPORT ARE APPRECIATED.


----------



## EME101

New Update.  100%

As of 30 May 2014, the PIL Team has completed the audit of 100% of all received files. Contact your orderly room so they can determine the status of your file. Please do not contact the PIL team directly.

Once the PIL team completes the audit, the file is returned for payment processing to the most recent posted unit (for Reg F pers), or DMPAP (for Res F pers). Payments will appear on the member’s regular pay. Please note that there will be a considerable lag time from the date the PIL team completes the audit process and the date the payment is processed.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

EME101 said:
			
		

> New Update.  100%
> 
> As of 30 May 2014, the PIL Team has completed the audit of 100% of all received files. Contact your orderly room so they can determine the status of your file. Please do not contact the PIL team directly.
> 
> Once the PIL team completes the audit, the file is returned for payment processing to the most recent posted unit (for Reg F pers), or DMPAP (for Res F pers). Payments will appear on the member’s regular pay. Please note that there will be a considerable lag time from the date the PIL team completes the audit process and the date the payment is processed.



Mine was completed some months ago and I was told not to expect anything in my account until, at least, Sept 14.

That's not lag time. That's mollasses running uphill in the winter. :


----------



## noneck

So if a svc mbr did not receive the PIL for say a year....are they not then disadvantaged by not being able to have collected that interest on the principal ,which their brothers and sisters who have been paid out were able to? Is this not grievable?

My civvy job (Also Fed) was able to pay out the PIL in less than 8 weeks and it has a strength of approx 1/3 of the CAF.......so what's the excuse? Troops out here in BC are getting a tad pissed about this, as we seem to be the last to be paid!


----------



## DAA

noneck said:
			
		

> So if a svc mbr did not receive the PIL for say a year....are they not then disadvantaged by not being able to have collected that interest on the principal ,which their brothers and sisters who have been paid out were able to? Is this not grievable?
> 
> My civvy job (Also Fed) was able to pay out the PIL in less than 8 weeks and it has a strength of approx 1/3 of the CAF.......so what's the excuse? Troops out here in BC are getting a tad pissed about this, as we seem to be the last to be paid!



Can't grieve something, that hasn't yet been "approved".  Just because you applied, doesn't give you an immediate entitlement based on application date, especially in a case such as this.

Problem is.......record keeping, change of the way records are kept (ie; paper or electronic) and trying to pull/verify that information.  It's all about the "verification" process, nothing more.

If your "troops" in BC are/were the "last" to be paid.  My first question would be directed to whom ever it was that your paperwork was submitted to and it would be "When did you submit my request higher?".  That should pretty much answer your question......


----------



## dapaterson

Given my past experience looking at Reserve Admin, the worst was generally to be found in BC (with Alberta a close second).  Perhaps if Commanders in the Army Reserve treated it seriously issues like this would be better managed.


----------



## stokerwes

Still haven't received mine and I don't live in B.C.  
I did receive an email from my BOR asking if I wanted the full amount or if it was going into an RRSP a few weeks back. So I would think it should be showing up soon.
This whole evolution has been lacking to say the least. 
Time served and rate of pay were the only items required, yet a full audit was done on all members. And one will be done again at release regardless of when the PIL audit was done.


----------



## dapaterson

stokerwes said:
			
		

> Time served and rate of pay were the only items required, yet a full audit was done on all members. And one will be done again at release regardless of when the PIL audit was done.



Time served has to be confirmed against both Reg and Res, and then verified that no prior severance or RFRG had been paid.

Rate of Pay on the date had to be confirmed - individuals holding acting rank, or Reservists on class C service on the date were all special cases that had to be addressed.

Full audit was done only on individuals with any Res F service, or Reg only service asking for 50% or more.


I don't see many RMS clerks telling stokers how to do their jobs...


----------



## dapaterson

Interesting grievance at: http://mgerc-ceegm.gc.ca/cs-sc/2013-066-eng.html

Short version: Sgt in 2005; A/L WO in 2010 pending ILQ; got ILQ in June 2012.  Thus, when the severance deadline occurred, he was still a substantive Sgt and got his cashout as a Sgt.

His grievance says, essentially, the CAF had more than six years to train me and didn't - and I'm being financially penalized now because of it.

The Military Grievance External Review Committee is supporting this; it will be interesting to see how the CDS responds...


----------



## PuckChaser

Very interesting, I was denied being paid out as a Sgt despite being WSE to that rank, held quals to be substantive and was selected for promotion.


----------



## Brasidas

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Very interesting, I was denied being paid out as a Sgt despite being WSE to that rank, held quals to be substantive and was selected for promotion.



My wife would probably inform me that we were filing a grievance the next day if and when we were at a party/mess dinner/bbq and that story came up. $230 a month adds up to a servicable car at 10 years service.


----------



## PMedMoe

Guess he shouldn't have taken the payout then.  That's why I didn't.  Not to mention, yes the ILQ is needed for substantive WO rank, however, there would be no need to send a newly promoted Sgt on the course.  But there is definite delays.  It took me over two years to get my course too.


----------



## jollyjacktar

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Guess he shouldn't have taken the payout then.  That's why I didn't.  Not to mention, yes the ILQ is needed for substantive WO rank, however, there would be no need to send a newly promoted Sgt on the course.  But there is definite delays.  It took me over two years to get my course too.


One of my supervisors, who had just returned from his ILQ, said that it was wasted on him as a P1 as he already knew/had a grip on the materials presented.  He was of the opinion that it would have been beneficial to get the course when he was a P2.  I tend to agree with him on that point.  Just as PLQ should be given to junior members who will be coming into a junior supervisory role in the near future and not necessarily when you're already in the hot seat.


----------



## PMedMoe

I kind of thought the ILQ was a waste of time.  Just my  :2c:

 :dunno:


----------



## George Wallace

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> ........  Just as PLQ should be given to junior members who will be coming into a junior supervisory role in the near future and not necessarily when you're already in the hot seat.



I have always been against the idea of certain Trades promoting their people to MCpl without a PLQ.  Many of us have witnessed MCpls who have held the rank for several years without ever being on a PLQ.  

This is a matter for all the CMs and Corps/Branch Advisors to get a grip on and sort out.  Many Trades follow the rule that they will not promote without qualifications, while some Trades totally ignore qualifications in their promotion strategies.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

In the army it seems, except for Cmbt Arms, a lot of trades promote without the leadership course.


----------



## Old EO Tech

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> In the army it seems, except for Cmbt Arms, a lot of trades promote without the leadership course.



Because we can't afford to wait for Div TC's to load Cpl's on PLQ's.  With the attrition rate we have the TC's can't keep up.  So it's not just a CM/Corp problem, I know in my RCEME shop I have been loading AL/MCpl on a PLQ within 6 months which is not bad, and in the mean time the MCpl are certainly earning their extra pay


----------



## Good2Golf

[slight OT]As Old EO Tech notes, many of the AL/MCpls are working hard while they wait for their (currently backlogged) PLQ.  The CoC should be keeping a close eye on AL/MCpls' progress as well as the flow of upcoming PLQ courses to ensure they do not surpass the 12-month maximum waiver and force a reversion back to Cpl.
[/slight OT]

Regards
G2G


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Are you sure 12 months OS accurate?  I went way past that.


----------



## Good2Golf

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> Are you sure 12 months OS accurate?  I went way past that.



SDAT, I haven't seen the hard copy policy so I can't provide the ref. per se, however, one of my troop's PLQ course was rescheduled from within 12 months to beyond 12 months and the CM called my RSM to voice his concern that the MCpl would have to relinquish his rank.  CM helped to get him re-loaded within 12 months, so we didn't actually see a relinquishment situation, just the warning/concern.  Good on the CM for: a) being on the ball, and b) caring about the member to warn us of the situation.  

Regardes
G2G


----------



## PuckChaser

I have heard of this as well, but was informed it was a 2 year policy before a CM could request relinquishment, however it had to be the member that was dodging the PLQ course. In some cases, there are so few spots that members are waiting those full 2 years or more to be course loaded.

I do know of the CANFORGEN/CANARMYGEN outlining PLQ mod dates, and a PLQ Mod 1 will expire if the remainder of the PLQ isn't completed within 1 year from completion date.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I did my SLC in Gagetown in 2002; at the same time there were 2 PLQs running.  Every single candidate was an A/L jack.  And here we are 12 years later SSDD (or year).   I am not a fan of prmotion before qual crap.


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## Scoobie Newbie

I was in that boat myself. My course was probably 1/3 A/L. You can't blame the soldier though. They won't allow a pers to do the PLQ if they don't have SQ for the Army PLQ


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## TCM621

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I did my SLC in Gagetown in 2002; at the same time there were 2 PLQs running.  Every single candidate was an A/L jack.  And here we are 12 years later SSDD (or year).   I am not a fan of prmotion before qual crap.


I agree with this.  It doesn't happen a lot but some of these A/L MCpls fail PLQ.  You then have to reload them as soon as possible so they can keep the rank and do the job they are posted into. This pushes more people back. Occasionally a mbr fails two or three times and losses the rank.  You have now wasted a promotion on someone who wasn't deserving, denying one to someone who may have been. 

Occasionally one may have to be promoted A/L but it should be pretty rare.  If the CM can't promote enough guys because he doesn't have enough qualified pers then that is some pretty good ammo to get some courses run. What happens more often is that unqualified pers are promoted over qualified pers because the system overvalues subjective attributes and undervalues quantifiable things like qualifications.  A person who has passed the leadership course has been evaluated and found to be an acceptable leader, rarely should someone who hasn't score higher in leadership.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> I agree with this.  It doesn't happen a lot but some of these A/L MCpls fail PLQ.  You then have to reload them as soon as possible so they can keep the rank and do the job they are posted into. This pushes more people back. Occasionally a mbr fails two or three times and losses the rank.  You have now wasted a promotion on someone who wasn't deserving, denying one to someone who may have been.
> 
> Occasionally one may have to be promoted A/L but it should be pretty rare.  If the CM can't promote enough guys because he doesn't have enough qualified pers then that is some pretty good ammo to get some courses run. What happens more often is that unqualified pers are promoted over qualified pers because the system overvalues subjective attributes and undervalues quantifiable things like qualifications.  A person who has passed the leadership course has been evaluated and found to be an acceptable leader, rarely should someone who hasn't score higher in leadership.



Interesting way of thought..............so the qualifications of leadership are far more important then actual leadership??    What a course staff of 5/6 people think is more important then what the individual units know?


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## TCM621

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Interesting way of thought..............so the qualifications of leadership are far more important then actual leadership??    What a course staff of 5/6 people think is more important then what the individual units know?


Then why have it? If the opinion of the people we task with evaluating leadership isn't relevant then save some money and get rid of it. 

The potential for leadership, as judged by ones superiors, gets you on the course. You are then formally evaluated for leadership skills. From that pool of qualified individuals you choose who is ready for promotion.  In this way,  you get both a formal evaluation by an outside agency and an informal opinion based on day to day observations. They work together to provide the best candidates for the next rank level.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Oh I get the way it should work,.......but it's just "hinky" to me that someone was impressive enough to promote even before being loaded on a course but because they fail that course they are "undeserving".

Didn't mean to derail this thread though.........


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## TwoTonShackle

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Interesting way of thought..............so the qualifications of leadership are far more important then actual leadership??    What a course staff of 5/6 people think is more important then what the individual units know?



It is not what the staff thinks, it is the QS they are held to.  If there is any leeway or wiggle room that the staff can use, 9 times out of 10 the decision goes in benefit of the student, and that 1 out of 10 usually has good reason behind it.


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## 392

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> It doesn't happen a lot but some of these A/L MCpls fail PLQ.  You then have to reload them as soon as possible so they can keep the rank and do the job they are posted into. This pushes more people back. Occasionally a mbr fails two or three times and losses the rank.



This is an interesting comment. Failure of a career course should be triggering an AR, so how are these individuals being reloaded added ASAP? And failure two or three times? Huh? 

Every PY in the CAF has competencies, language profile and minimum ranks attached to them. If a member doesn't have the courses that are a requirement of that position, they should not be posted into it.


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## armyvern

In my trade, those who wear the Cdn Army uniform are constantly waiting up to 18 months just to get loaded onto the DL portion of their PLQ.  Meanwhile, my new MCpls who wear the RCN and RCAF uniform have usually completed both the DL and Attendance portions by 18 months post-promotion date.

So, it ain't a careers problem.  Seems to be an Army problem to me and, it seems, they are who need to sort their shit out.  Pretty hard for our career managers to make it a pre-req to be required PRIOR to putting up the rank when most of those Cdn Army uniform wearing guys of mine are actual higher on the ML and due for promotion ahead of those RCAF and RCN wearing uniform troops.  Do the RCAF and RCN get promoted ahead of guys higher on the list (because they get their courses loaded quicker) because the Army can't sort it's shit out?

How is that fair to the one's whose potential and performance was actually higher?


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## PMedMoe

Thinking this thread needs a split....


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## ballz

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Interesting way of thought..............so the qualifications of leadership are far more important then actual leadership??    What a course staff of 5/6 people think is more important then what the individual units know?



I just got back from Petawawa as a Course O for a PLQ-A. Over half of my course was an A/MCpl. 

Overall, I'll say the CSS pers on my course earned a healthy dose of respect from me. The new command team at Leadership Coy is willing to hold the bar high and we ran a tough course. I thought we would end up seeing a lot more RTUs than we did just from the stress we put on the candidates, and by the the end of the course they were in a lot rougher shape than I would have guessed because I thought a lot of them would have quit before getting to that point. Some weren't all that strong with the course material but they did show a lot of drive and stepped up to the plate in their leadership tasks, so we could look past the fact that they couldn't plan the perfect recce patrol or what have you.

But, with some of the candidates we saw, it showed me that there is certainly merit in having a third-party mentor, develop, and evaluate the leadership abilities of these folks, and that the units can't be 100% relied upon to do this themselves. Some of the candidates could be great at their trade, whether its fixing vehicles or what have you, but shouldn't ever be put in a leadership position... 

It would have been nice if the units took care of that part and ensured they weren't loaded on the course, maybe those with leadership potential who are in the queue could have been loaded instead if the units did that part of their job. So I guess the question is, what measures are in place for a unit to do this? Other than the PER system which we've completely ruined (at least in my trade)? To me the only thing available is administrative action, which really can't be justified if the person is doing a good job as a follower.



			
				TwoTonShackle said:
			
		

> It is not what the staff thinks, it is the QS they are held to.  If there is any leeway or wiggle room that the staff can use, 9 times out of 10 the decision goes in benefit of the student, and that 1 out of 10 usually has good reason behind it.



Pretty accurate assessment from the one experience I had running this course.



			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Thinking this thread needs a split....



Agreed, and it is a topic worth discussing...


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP

ballz said:
			
		

> I just got back from Petawawa as a Course O for a PLQ-A. Over half of my course was an A/MCpl.
> 
> Overall, I'll say the CSS pers on my course earned a healthy dose of respect from me. The new command team at Leadership Coy is willing to hold the bar high and we ran a tough course. I thought we would end up seeing a lot more RTUs than we did just from the stress we put on the candidates, and by the the end of the course they were in a lot rougher shape than I would have guessed because I thought a lot of them would have quit before getting to that point. Some weren't all that strong with the course material but they did show a lot of drive and stepped up to the plate in their leadership tasks, so we could look past the fact that they couldn't plan the perfect recce patrol or what have you.
> 
> But, with some of the candidates we saw, it showed me that there is certainly merit in having a third-party mentor, develop, and evaluate the leadership abilities of these folks, and that the units can't be 100% relied upon to do this themselves. Some of the candidates could be great at their trade, whether its fixing vehicles or what have you, but shouldn't ever be put in a leadership position...
> 
> It would have been nice if the units took care of that part and ensured they weren't loaded on the course, maybe those with leadership potential who are in the queue could have been loaded instead if the units did that part of their job. So I guess the question is, what measures are in place for a unit to do this? Other than the PER system which we've completely ruined (at least in my trade)? To me the only thing available is administrative action, which really can't be justified if the person is doing a good job as a follower.
> 
> Pretty accurate assessment from the one experience I had running this course.
> 
> Agreed, and it is a topic worth discussing...



The units can develop, mentor, coddle and evaluate leadership potential all we want, but at the end of the day, it's the career manager's call who gets put on career courses. 

It's really a problem with the system. I have to honestly evaluate someone on performance, and there are many people who perform incredibly at their rank, but likely won't make good leaders.
The potential side of the PER becomes the issue, and if someone shows up to your unit with a high immediate PER, there's not a whole lot you can do. If you disagree with the leadership potential and try to correct the score downwards they will argue that potential shouldn't change downwards year to year (an argument that has definite merit, if they had potential last year they have the same potential this year, barring anything extraordinary). They can grieve it, and they'd likely win, but the grievence will likely be stopped at the OC/CO level and the potential changed back, especially if the person had decent performance.

Long story short, the PER system, despite all the cosmetic changes, hasn't changed. People will see their points gradually move right year to year and eventually the career manager will promote and load them on a PLQ, regardless.


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## George Wallace

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> The units can develop, mentor, coddle and evaluate leadership potential all we want, but at the end of the day, it's the career manager's call who gets put on career courses.
> 
> It's really a problem with the system. I have to honestly evaluate someone on performance, and there are many people who perform incredibly at their rank, but likely won't make good leaders.
> The potential side of the PER becomes the issue, and if someone shows up to your unit with a high immediate PER, there's not a whole lot you can do. If you disagree with the leadership potential and try to correct the score downwards they will argue that potential shouldn't change downwards year to year (an argument that has definite merit, if they had potential last year they have the same potential this year, barring anything extraordinary). They can grieve it, and they'd likely win, but the grievence will likely be stopped at the OC/CO level and the potential changed back, especially if the person had decent performance.
> 
> Long story short, the PER system, despite all the cosmetic changes, hasn't changed. People will see their points gradually move right year to year and eventually the career manager will promote and load them on a PLQ, regardless.



In a way I agree with you.  However, it still is up to you to evaluate your pers as you see fit (being honest and truthful in doing so).  Although the person in your example may have had a glowing PER in their last Posting, when matched up with their current peers under you, they may not shine so well.  It is up to you to be fair to all your subordinates and rank them fairly.  There should therefore be no potential of someone grieving a PER if it is well documented through the PDRs leading up to it.  Unit Merit Boards should also be a means to control pers without the leadership qualities desired from progressing and being promoted ahead of their more deserving peers; and a means to stop inflated PERs for pers simply for the reason that their previous PER was higher.  There is nothing stating that a person's PER MUST BE higher than their last one.


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## Bird_Gunner45

I agree that there is a belief (within the army at least) that PER scores have to always improve. But, as you stated, the PER process is a yearly evaluation, and past PERs are to have no bearing on the current years scores. I've seen cases where people came in over-inflated (an example being a unit that had almost all their captains, including those not DP 2 qualified as MOI) and had to be busted down afterwards to a level more fitting their abilities at that moment in time. As noted, it's the supervisors reponsibility to put out PDRs that justify WHY the member is decreasing in their meriting for that year.

[/quote]

The potential side of the PER becomes the issue, and if someone shows up to your unit with a high immediate PER, there's not a whole lot you can do. If you disagree with the leadership potential and try to correct the score downwards they will argue that potential shouldn't change downwards year to year (an argument that has definite merit, if they had potential last year they have the same potential this year, barring anything extraordinary). They can grieve it, and they'd likely win, but the grievence will likely be stopped at the OC/CO level and the potential changed back, especially if the person had decent performance.

[/quote]

People's potential changes all the time. Sometimes the progress they made in the past plateau's, sometimes they degress, and sometimes the potential of their peers grows at a faster rate than their own, pushing the individual down. Same goes for their performance. That's why this is a yearly evaluation.


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## ballz

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> The units can develop, mentor, coddle and evaluate leadership potential all we want, but at the end of the day, it's the career manager's call who gets put on career courses.



But based on what? The PERs? The units have control of the PER system. The PDR/PER system is not as much broken as the leaders who are supposed to use it. All the tools are there to ensure that junk pers do not get promoted, but requires the leadership to have some _spine_.

I have an example coming up this year. I have a person who is about to receive their first PER in their current rank. They haven't been pure junk, but they sure have proven that they shouldn't be in the rank they are in and they must never, EVER, be promoted again. They have 3 PDRs now, first was "good" and the last two "standard" with a 5b section that was stronger than the 5a section. Given that they are not responding at all feedback from all sources (subordinates, peers, and superiors) and have decided that the problem is really their superiors (me), I'll be surprised if they aren't on IC for performance by the time 31 March rolls around.

Their PER score just came back as an ESAAR because of the pure _weakness_ that exists outside of my control. I can quite confidently assure you that they will get an SND. Not because I've got it out for them, but because their shortcomings have been documented and the direct and honest feedback they have received has been documented. Although my OC is tracking his shortcomings, when I go to him to get the score changed, he will want to see what we've got, and it will be provided to him.

I didn't enjoy issuing those PDRs, I didn't enjoy the tough conversations, and I didn't enjoy having to look another person in the face and tell him he's not performing very well. It was even less enjoyable because I didn't feel like he *could* improve, because he never should be at the rank level he is at. 

But I did all of those things, because it's the tough part of being a leader and I knew it was the right thing to do. The fact that all those before me passed the buck meant they put him in this position where he is in way over his head. The buck they passed landed on my desk and at some point someone has to grow a set or this person will end up as RSM of the CAF.

Having failed to do this properly last year, I've been a little wiser this year. I learned from my failure and forced myself to have the tough conversations and issue the tough PDRs. For some reason, too many people find it easier to sleep at night knowing they are passing the buck on this responsibility.



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unit Merit Boards should also be a means to control pers without the leadership qualities desired from progressing and being promoted ahead of their more deserving peers; and a means to stop inflated PERs for pers simply for the reason that their previous PER was higher.  There is nothing stating that a person's PER MUST BE higher than their last one.



In my unit, its the unit merit board that causes the most problems from what I've seen... We have the scores *dictated* to us by the Bn. Last year one of my corporals was ranked #1 in the company and no one disagreed. The OC/CSM went to the unit merit board and were happy with where he placed Bn-wide. Then the scores got sent back and our #1 Corporal was now #7 within our own company!  :clubinhand:


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## kratz

As an LS, I had to fail MCpl(MedAs), PO1s, CPO2(Divers) and LCdrs in my role as a First Aid Instructor-Trainer.
Nobody ever enjoyed hearing they did not pass the standard. As a junior rank, if I was ensuring the safety and standards are met, why can't the annual assesment at least do it job?


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## sidemount

ballz said:
			
		

> In my unit, its the unit merit board that causes the most problems from what I've seen... We have the scores *dictated* to us by the Bn. Last year one of my corporals was ranked #1 in the company and no one disagreed. The OC/CSM went to the unit merit board and were happy with where he placed Bn-wide. Then the scores got sent back and our #1 Corporal was now #7 within our own company!  :clubinhand:



I ran into the same problem, I had a top Cpl but during boards some of the junk leadership played other people way up.....with absolute BS. and my arguments were tossed aside as I was younger and fairly new to the unit. My member was put down. I had a WTF moment with my bosses....didn't get anywhere.
Because my PDRs were very detailed, and showed the areas where the member should have been M and O, I encouraged the member to grieve it.....the member put in their NOI to grieve.....and sure enough, didn't even have to grieve it, the NOI was enough to get the CoC sorted and get the member the points they deserve.


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## upandatom

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> In my trade, those who wear the Cdn Army uniform are constantly waiting up to 18 months just to get loaded onto the DL portion of their PLQ.  Meanwhile, my new MCpls who wear the RCN and RCAF uniform have usually completed both the DL and Attendance portions by 18 months post-promotion date.
> 
> So, it ain't a careers problem.  Seems to be an Army problem to me and, it seems, they are who need to sort their crap out.  Pretty hard for our career managers to make it a pre-req to be required PRIOR to putting up the rank when most of those Cdn Army uniform wearing guys of mine are actual higher on the ML and due for promotion ahead of those RCAF and RCN wearing uniform troops.  Do the RCAF and RCN get promoted ahead of guys higher on the list (because they get their courses loaded quicker) because the Army can't sort it's crap out?
> 
> How is that fair to the one's whose potential and performance was actually higher?



It took me 18 Months to complete All Portions, and while on the MOD 3/4 we had 8 Reg Force of 48 Candidates. (Army PLQ.) There are more army reserve units, they take up a large amount of course spots available to candidates.


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## BinRat55

kratz said:
			
		

> As an LS, I had to fail MCpl(MedAs), PO1s, CPO2(Divers) and LCdrs in my role as a First Aid Instructor-Trainer.
> Nobody ever enjoyed hearing they did not pass the standard. As a junior rank, if I was ensuring the safety and standards are met, why can't the annual assesment at least do it job?



Interesting. In my 10+ years of teaching First Aid I have taught children (cadets) Ground Search and Rescue to groups over 60 years old, nurses and doctors... I could go on... I have never failed anyone. Let alone a LCdr!! Sometimes if you have to fail people, you need only look as far as the instructor. SOMETIMES...


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## CountDC

nice hijacking   ;D

Just recieved an email from an associate that was questioning a rumoured pay increase for civilians.  Of course I have to check.  Has anyone heard anything?


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## BinRat55

You like that?  

I have heard rumours of a slightly possible strike... only rumours tho...


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## jollyjacktar

No whispers in my place of work in that regard.  The ratio of civ/mil is high.  I'll keep my ears cocked.


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## dapaterson

Under the Caretaker Convention, it;s unlikely that any agreement with any PS union would be signed during an election period.


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## Old EO Tech

I'd just be happy if we got any sort of moderate cost of living increase for the past two years....I don't think the TB would be injuring it's fight with the PS over sick days by doing this...


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## BinRat55

Old EO Tech said:
			
		

> I'd just be happy if we got any sort of moderate cost of living increase for the past two years....



I know, isn't it terrible!! I can barely afford my BMW payments and we have been reduced to one trip to Mexico now   . I may have to get a real job...


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## CountDC

bloody sick days again.  So tired of that.  Came across it looking around late last night and couldn't believe it.  Same crap all over again.  Fight everything, change almost nothing then issue everyone the back pay adjustments, start all over from behind.  Have to slam negotiaters on both sides - keeps their jobs intact.


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