# K-Bars and Cadets



## Cpl.K Soomro (24 Oct 2005)

Im wondering, are cadets allowed to have K-Bars. I just did SIC and was planning to get one but i don't know if ill get in trouble or not. Thanx.


----------



## D-n-A (24 Oct 2005)

Most likely depends on your unit. I've seen lots of cadets with ka-bars aswell as other knifes. Honestly, you don't need one, its a fighting knife. The best all around tool you need is a multi-tool.


----------



## Burrows (24 Oct 2005)

Manuals reccomend a folding blade knife, blade being no longer than 6 inches.

I personally can't see any need for a cadet to have a Ka-bar as I doubt they do any knife fighting.  Any practical use for a Ka-Bar can be done with an axe, for a few hundred bucks cheaper.


----------



## PViddy (24 Oct 2005)

It's a valid question.  

The SIC course in Air Cadets trains the cadets on various uses and protocals on a multitude of tools.

KS, i am pretty sure it's a "CO's descretion thing"  My Sqn. will only let NCO's carry folding knives, not to exceed 6 inches.  Best bet would be to check with your staff before you drop the bucks.  A swiss army knife or Gerber multi=plier would definately be of more efficient and sensible use.


regards

PV


----------



## condor888000 (24 Oct 2005)

Second the Gerber multitool. SI at my unit has a Ka-bar(folding one though) and she took it out once last weekend, and that was to teach a class on tools. Other than that it stayed on her belt. My little Gerber got plenty of use though. Multitools are the way to go in my books. I find them so much more usefull than a fixed or folding blade knife. I've never needed anything more than the 3" blade on my Gerber. And I find I use the pliers just as much if not more then the knife.


----------



## PPCLI MCpl (24 Oct 2005)

Multi-tool is the way to go. But my hatred of the Gerber prompts me to mention my personal favorite, the Victorianox Swisstool.
One of the best investments I have ever made.


----------



## condor888000 (24 Oct 2005)

PPCLI MCpl said:
			
		

> Multi-tool is the way to go. But my hatred of the Gerber prompts me to mention my personal favorite, the Victorianox Swisstool.
> One of the best investments I have ever made.


Why do you hate Gerber? I've had no problems with mine at all over the past 2 years.


----------



## PPCLI MCpl (24 Oct 2005)

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Why do you hate Gerber? I've had no problems with mine at all over the past 2 years.



I have found all three issued versions of the Gerber flimsy, prone to corrosion and tend to fold back on your fingers when subjected to any forceful use.  Also, I dislike that you have to open the pliers to access the tools, and when you attempt to pull out one tool, you get a clump you have to sort through. 

The new SOG is no better. I've had my Swisstool for almost 8 years, and it's never let me down yet.  

Having said that, some of the new Leatherman's are not that bad.


----------



## PPCLI MCpl (24 Oct 2005)

A little off topic, but here is a thread discussing the pro's and con's of various multi-tools.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27809.0.html


----------



## PViddy (24 Oct 2005)

> No its not. The only thing a Ka-Bar would be useful for in cadets is to be used as a machete



Guess what ? better he/she get clarrification here in the *cadet forum* . 

 I agree that the ka-bar knife would not have a particular use on a cadet FTX, as i mentioned my unit wouldn't even allow it.  Maybe you could be the mentoring example instead of the smart $%#.

PV


----------



## condor888000 (24 Oct 2005)

PPCLI MCpl said:
			
		

> I have found all three issued versions of the Gerber flimsy, prone to corrosion and tend to fold back on your fingers when subjected to any forceful use.   Also, I dislike that you have to open the pliers to access the tools, and when you attempt to pull out one tool, you get a clump you have to sort through.
> 
> The new SOG is no better. I've had my Swisstool for almost 8 years, and it's never let me down yet.
> 
> Having said that, some of the new Leatherman's are not that bad.


Alright cool. Is it possible that the issue Gerbers just aren't up to snuff though? I had a bit of minor surface rust that stopped once I actually started to make sure it was clean every night after I used it, right after I read some of the stuff in the other thread as a matter of fact. I never have had mine fold back when I'm using the tools, and I find the flip down pliers are really easy to access and get out in a hurry. Clump thing I noticed too when it was new. Playing with it right now.......no, none of mine clump together when I pull them out. Interesting. Maybe once it gets broken in they come out easier or something.......Interesting. Each their own I suppose. For me, I love my Gerber. Wouldn't trade it without making sure I'm getting a far better tool before hand. 

And the sound it makes when you flip out the pliers is just so cool sounding! 8)


----------



## Peace (25 Oct 2005)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> There's no use for one, although it might come in handy for certain things and certain weekends.   However, I have a Gerber Multi-Tool and a 6-inch floding blade pocket knife, and that's all you'll need



The issued gerber sucks....  Folding knife is the way to go.


----------



## the 48th regulator (25 Oct 2005)

toss the K-Bar,

if you want LCF, then here is what I carried in my years, not cadets, but reserves, and I got the biggest chunk of butter for the bread!!

SOG Desert Dagger and,

My "big Birtha" an Old Grohmann & D.H. Russell Survival Knife

wear with pride, pose with honor..... 

dileas

tess


----------



## alan_li_13 (25 Oct 2005)

> A real man carries a dirk, or better yet, a claymore.



Men can carry claymores...but a GENTLEMAN carries a Wilkinson...yes, even into the field.


----------



## primer (25 Oct 2005)

I agree with 2332Piper its the C.L.F. with the younger cadets. Why would anyone need a K-bar any multi-tool could do the job. I have seen one cadet from my unit who had more knives on him than in my kitchen 2332 Piper was a cadet with him at the sametime.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (25 Oct 2005)

every  cadet needs a fighting knife of some kind.  so when they have to do that  after bed time stand to and fight that  commie pinko, long hair hippie freak coming over the wire in serious hand to  hand , tooth to tooth, after they have used up every means of defending themselves  at camp. they  know they  will come out on top.  I am sure some cadets see the need for such a knife, and could tell you all sorts of reasons why  they need it , how they  will use it and where they  would use it.

i spent 12 years in scouting,  7 years in the military  and never found a need for anything bigger then a pocket knife  most days. do not even think i used the issue knife ever other then on kit inspections. 

a simple pocket knife will get you thru cadets and most of your life.
learned from boy scouts, the bigger the knife, more likely the injury being a big one


----------



## geo (25 Oct 2005)

Have made good use of my Gerber.
If I want a good sheath knife, have a trusty old "russell boat knife".... 
though I have had very little use for it over the last umpteen years.


----------



## redleafjumper (25 Oct 2005)

I agree that a folding knife or multi-tool is generally more practical for most uses around camp.   The sheath knives do have their uses, and it is worthwhile to provide some instruction in those uses.   For example, sheath knives are better for dressing and skinning wild game.   In desperation, the Swiss Army knife will work for awhile, but a nice sharp sheath knife is much better. Innovations for handling game such as the excellent Wyoming knife, which are both sheath knives and compact, are special purpose and thus of limited utility. In areas frequented by predatory wildlife, cougars, bears, etc., a sheath knife can be a life saver.   Many a person working or recreating outdoors has found such a knife their only means of defense from an animal attack, this is not something that a folder can do.   Another important use for a sheath knife is for cutting rope in climbing or rescue work; certainly decisions like that require some training.   Folders are problematic when one hand is belaying or controlling a safety line.   For that purpose, I like a sheath knife tied to me with a bit of 550 cord - the Russell belt knives are a good choice for that sort of work.   Tying your knife to you also prevent is getting lost or leaving your presence when someone else doesn't have a knife.   Sheath knives have other uses.   Before people had utensils to eat with, knives, even big sheath ones, were used like forks.   Certainly any knife used should be kept sharp, as the dull knives are the ones that slip and cut people.   Never cut towards yourself, you might need those appendages later!

I am not recommending that everyone go around with a big knife everywhere all the time on a cadet exercise - it simply is not usually necessary.   However, these knives do have their uses and it is worthwhile to consider those uses and train for them.   If you show people what works best for different situations, they will usually make the best choice.   My advice is to choose the right tool for the job, and use it properly.


----------



## geo (25 Oct 2005)

If you're going to teach people about using sheath knives, I figure it's best to teach em with a "normal" sheath knife(ie; not a big honking blade).
The Russel is a good knife for that purpose, strong and reliable, it keeps a good edge but it is "not impressive" as a trophy knife... it's all business - and it's good at it.

With respect to having knives to defend yourself from bears and cats..... having one might prompt you to a false sense of security and encourage you to do something silly like becoming agressive... not a wise move at the best of times - IMHO


----------



## redleafjumper (25 Oct 2005)

Geo, fighting a bear or cat with a knife is far from the ideal circumstance.  In my part of the world, people working, or more usually hunting, in the great outdoors have had to do just that.  The idea is that if something like a fight with a predator comes up that one is mentally prepared to use the resources that they have available to defend themselves.  Once a martial artist friend told me that he was quite comfortable fighting even a grizzly with a katana sword.  I told him he was nuts, as that sort of talk displayed a lack of respect for the animal and, in my opinion a rather high regard for his own ability.  On the other had there has been at least one incident of a hunter killing a grizzly with his sheath knife when the bear knocked his rifle out of his hands and began the mauling process.  He certainly had no false sense of security making him aggressive.  He was sure glad he had his knife, though!  As for a cadet trying to justify packing a k-bar so that they can fight a bear, hmmmm.  Highly unlikely, but anyone packing a sheath knife should have the thought in their mind if such a circumstance should arise.


----------



## PViddy (25 Oct 2005)

A prominent Doctor from my community.  
It's hard to say if having a bigger knife in this situation would have helped at all, in all, a tragic story.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/09/07/killer_black_bear20050907.html

Black bear kills woman camper north of Chapleau, Ont.
Last Updated Wed, 07 Sep 2005 22:00:44 EDT 
CBC News
A black bear -- that may have learned to prey on humans -- killed a woman and injured her husband at a provincial park in northern Ontario. 

  
Jacqueline Perry in this family photo. (CP PHOTO/Brantford Expositor - HO)  
Police and wildlife officials were on the hunt for the wounded bear Wednesday and campers have been ordered out of the back country of Missinaibi Lake Provincial Park.

30-year-old Jacqueline Perry and Mark Jordan, also 30, were attacked at a campsite in the provincial park, about 80 kilometres north of Chapleau. 

Ontario Provincial Police said that while the bear was attacking Perry, *Jordan managed to stab it a few times with a Swiss Army knife * in a frantic effort to keep it from dragging his wife into the woods. Jordan was flown to hospital in Sudbury. 

Perry was a family doctor at Grandview Medical Centre in Cambridge, Ont. 

The couple were on a two-week holiday, camping and kayaking at a remote campsite when the black bear attacked.

OPP Const. Karen Farand said after fighting off the bear, the injured Jordan carried Perry to their kayak and began to paddle to the nearest campsite. He yelled for help and a father and his 30-year-old son from Pennsylvania, heard him. Jordan put his wife into their boat.

About a kilometre away, they flagged down another boat, which carried a doctor from North Carolina and an off-duty police officer. The doctor tried to treat Perry while the boat continued on to the park office, about 10 kilometres away. But by then Farand said Perry had succumbed to her injuries.

"I've lived here all my life and this is a first for me," said Farand. "I can't even imagine what (Perry and Jordan) went through."

Keith Scott, a bear expert with the Ministry of Natural Resources, said such attacks are "very rare. There's only been four fatalities in Ontario through black bears dating back to about 1978," he said. "This one in this particular case, it's early in the investigation, but it appears to be a predatory-type bear. These bears have learned to and often prey on humans." 

There have been a number of bear attacks across Canada this summer. 

A Manitoba man fended off a black bear in early September, just one week after a black bear killed another man in the province. There have been four grizzly bear attacks in Alberta since June, including a fatal one on a female jogger near Canmore. And a woman in British Columbia was mauled by a bear in May.


----------



## Kat Stevens (25 Oct 2005)

Well, living here in the Free Republic of Central Alberta, Slave Lake/Westlock Prefecture,  when I go out in the boonies, this is never far away.  


http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=CS97KMS

18 inches long, and all business. Nothing to do with look cool, everything to do with great tool.


----------



## the 48th regulator (25 Oct 2005)

Nice Very nice,

You would get at least two thirds of the slab of butter...

do you hang it on yer belt so it hangs just below your shirt, ever so nonchalantly, or do you tie it to y our pack so all can see?

dileas

tess


----------



## Kat Stevens (25 Oct 2005)

Sling it across the chest.  It's flippin' huge, but when I'm all bundled up in my fluffy stuff for snowshoeing, it needs to be accessible, toot sweet (I know it's spelled wrong).  Strapped to the side of the pack in summer, but it blends in nicely, tough to spot until up close.


----------



## PPCLI MCpl (25 Oct 2005)

In 5 years of cadets, 2 years of reserves and 8 years in the Regs, I have never found a use for anything larger than a multi-tool or 4 inch Spyderco/Benchmade.   I broke down and bought a Timberland Zambezei for Op Apollo in 2002.   I never got the chance to use it on that tour, and I have never had an opportunity to use it since.   

If a multi-tool or folding blade doesn't satisfy you, I would recommend the Cold Steel Kukri.   It is multi purpose, can be used for cutting, skinning, chopping and whittling and above all... IT LOOKS REALLY COOL!!!  :threat: :skull: :bullet: >


----------



## redleafjumper (26 Oct 2005)

The buck page has some examples of useful sheath knife incidents:  http://www.buckknives.com/knife_tales.php


----------



## ryanmann356 (26 Oct 2005)

I think this is one of those "it doesnt have to work just as long as it looks cool" moments.  I mean if the CO says its cool then go ahead and bring it.  Theres some cadets in my corps that have combat helmets  :warstory: ( the Vietnam ones)  it depends if your CO is cool with it I guess.


----------



## D-n-A (26 Oct 2005)

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> I think this is one of those "it doesnt have to work just as long as it looks cool" moments.   I mean if the CO says its cool then go ahead and bring it.   Theres some cadets in my corps that have combat helmets   :warstory: ( the Vietnam ones)   it depends if your CO is cool with it I guess.



I've seen the lil rambo's in your unit. Guys with k-bars and field dressings tapped to their webbing, helmets, etc.


----------



## Chang (26 Oct 2005)

Peace said:
			
		

> The issued gerber sucks....   Folding knife is the way to go.



but the issued gerber is freeeee (although it does suck)


----------



## ouyin2000 (26 Oct 2005)

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> I think this is one of those "it doesnt have to work just as long as it looks cool" moments.   I mean if the CO says its cool then go ahead and bring it.   Theres some cadets in my corps that have combat helmets   :warstory: ( the Vietnam ones)   it depends if your CO is cool with it I guess.


HAHA I had a helmet issued to me for some odd reason when I was a Cpl. I brought it on one FTX, never used it, and handed it back in the next week.


----------



## Bergeron 971 (27 Oct 2005)

"My knife is bigger then yours!" Brings back memories. lol
Ya, I was a cadet for 10 years and wear or carried alot of diffrent knives during that time. 
once i hit the M/Cpl level it was who had the koolest and/or biggest knife, guess who won   untill my budy bought him self a marine Ontario Knife. as I grew up and matured, I carried the Jump Knife. more as a tradition then anything, cuting rope, etc. 
As a CI now. I laugh at my past in cadets regarding knives, 
I still carry a police duty. However my gerber could have been helpfull fiting the colmen stoves.
The police duty knife I also carry for work as a security officer. Cheap and to the day my fav knife i have. last weekend I sawed through 1.2inch rope we use to build rope bridges in like 10 seconds. *To fix the end, as it was al mest up. It really impressed me.


----------



## medic65726 (27 Oct 2005)

Aside from the macho/showoff issues, which affect us boys of all ages, there should be some utility in the tools we carry.
Throughout my time in Scouting and cadets, I carried a Victorinox (Swiss Army) Rucksack, that my dad picked up for me on a trip to Geneva (great prices over there by the way).
http://www.vtarmynavy.com/victorinox-rucksack.htm
I would have to say it is the best all around folding knife I have ever found. Sturdy lock, and great steel. Very rust-resistant and takes and holds a fine edge very well. I still have it, but it doesn't meet all my needs these days. I would however HIGHLY reccomend this knife to anyone.
Day to day at work I carry a Spyderco Rescue (in Orange), in a pocket in my flight-suit. Great for cutting seatbelts and restraints. As a safety feature it has a Sheepsfoot (not-pointed) tip, so as not to injure a patient, if you are running it up the inside of their clothing, to cut it off. Personally I find Trauma Shears are better for most of these purposes.
http://tackledirect.com/spydreskniv.html
In my kit bag, in a pack I take when we do calls in the bush, I have a Cold Steel SRK. It is a little big to wear to a car accident on the highway, but something I'd much rather have if spending a night in the bush, up north, especially as we are unlikely to have all the supplies we'd like (axe/saw/tent). Rather large and a little pricier than the other knives. But a solid, well made, utility knife.
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/coldsteel_SRK.htm
I've owned others, but these are my favourites.


----------



## geo (27 Oct 2005)

as an engineer I like the chain saw
but that's for another thread 
(won't fold & won't fit in most pockets )


----------



## redleafjumper (27 Oct 2005)

Chainsaws are great, I especially like them when you use vegetable oil as chain lube.  In that situation, petroleum-based oil doesn't get into the moose meat.  The chainsaw is way faster than handsaws axes, or any knife that I've yet found.  But, hey, don't forget to wear the safety boots, pants, gloves and helmet with face shield!


----------



## medic65726 (27 Oct 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> In my cadet days they didn't trust me with knives, I had to use a spork for everything.


Seeing as Cadets is become much ............Safer? Well, more politically correct....... Perhaps all Cadets sould be issued Tye-dyed uniforms....with Birkenstocks.....
and a SPORK!!!! 
I think the spork is a good idea...and much safer than all the other options discussed here.

 Should I submit these ideas to DCdts.?????


----------



## condor888000 (27 Oct 2005)

Theres a slew of different civvie gerber models out there. I'd imagine that some would be closer to the issue one than others.


----------



## ryanmann356 (27 Oct 2005)

Helmets are ok for cadets though.  I remember a master corporal was setting up a mod tent wearing his 'Nam helmet.  He lost his grip on the pole and it came down on his head.  He would have been hurt bad if he werent wearing it.  But the spork is a good idea theres alot of little cadets that I know that like, run with their knives out and other horrible things lol.  Issue them a spork and make them hunt with it. ;D


----------



## Slim (27 Oct 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> In my cadet days they didn't trust me with knives, I had to use a spork for everything.



K-Bar combat knives, CADPAT, helmets, C-7's...Why don't you people just join the army instead of posing around with military equipment?

Cadets should not have knives of any sort. I never did as a cadet and managed to get though all the cadet ex's that I did without suffering too much...The only difference is that the instructors i had didn't let us make asses of ourselves by *allowing us to dress up like soldiers! *


----------



## D-n-A (27 Oct 2005)

ryanmann356 said:
			
		

> Helmets are ok for cadets though.   I remember a master corporal was setting up a mod tent wearing his 'Nam helmet.   He lost his grip on the pole and it came down on his head.   He would have been hurt bad if he werent wearing it.



Upper body strength is good to. 

How did the pole come down an hit him? Were you all raising the mod, he didn't have the strength to lift it up an he dropped it on himself?

I love how lots of cadets refer to everything as 'nam this and 'nam that


----------



## Slim (27 Oct 2005)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> It's our right to do that.



The one major diference is that the reg force and reserves are not populated with children.

People under the age of 18 years old are not to be in possession of knives, guns or any of that stuff without a direct adult presence. That is Canadian law.

Can you tell me that an adult is present 24 and 7 when you're aon your 'exercises?!' I thought not.

Children are not responsible under the law if they hurt themselves or someone else with a weapon...The CF would be liable (and your cadet corps) and, after the media got done with you people the cadet program would be history!

Want that too happen...What about al the good cadets...You know the ones who are really there to learn and not pose for the cameras in their newest military getup!

You people do not think! Get rid of the army stuff and go back to being what you are...Children who are learning to be cadets, not soldiers.

Slim
STAFF


----------



## condor888000 (27 Oct 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> K-Bar combat knives, CADPAT, helmets, C-7's...Why don't you people just join the army instead of posing around with military equipment?



You want a 12-15 year old in a reserve unit? Cause thats what many cadets are. In my unit at least 50% are 12-15. Too young. Cadets gives them something to do in the meantime. Does it train them? Not really. Hopefully it will help a bit, not a huge bit mind you, but a bit. And hey, every little bit helps.



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> Cadets should not have knives of any sort.



Now I really disagree.   I take little on a bush ex. However, I will never go on a bush ex without a knife, multi-tool or some other *SMALL* blade on my person. Reasons? Never can tell what might happen. When you might need a knife. By that, I don't mean everyone should walk around with a Ka-bar. But a small folder? For the senior cadets who hopefully know how to handle it? Heck yes. Especially since it will certainly come in useful. Thankfully a few seniors are starting to come around to my view point so that I am no longer the only person with a knife on ex. Theres now 2 of us.   :



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> I never did as a cadet and managed to get though all the cadet eex'sthat I did without suffering too much...



Good for you. However I and others apparently feel differrent. I having a knife on a cadet ex a life or death thing? Of course not. However, it is a usefull *tool.* When required it is usefull. That is why I have one. 



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> The only difference is that the instructors i had didn't let us make asses of ourselves by *allowing us to dress up like soldiers! *



Complete agreement. OD's are one thing, but thats about all you need in my opinion.

Now that I'm done with that post........



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> People under the age of 18 years old are not to be in possession of knives, guns or any of that stuff without a direct adult presence. That is Canadian law.



Makes good sense to me. As it should.



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> Can you tell me that an adult is present 24 and 7 when you're aONyour 'exercises?!' I thought not.



No, but I am always at least in contact with said adult. As are all other seniors. We are also in contact with at least 1 medic from 28 Field Am when on our exs. The miracles of FRS radios...... 



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> Children are not responsible under the law if they hurt themselves or someone else with a weapon...The CF would be liable (and your cadet corps) and, after the media got done with you people the cadet program would be history!



Very true point. However, I have a feeling that that would very much depend on the parents of said injured cadet. As well as age. If I cut myself a mere 3 months before my 18th, with a knife, my mum won't flip out, but if 12 year old Bloggins did, bigger issue in the eyes of the parents if not the law. This is a heck of an arguement to restrice who can carry the knives. 



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> Want that too happen...What about al the good cadets...You know the ones who are really there to learn and not pose for the cameras in their newest military getup!



They can do so. Some of the best prefer to do so. Or prefer to wear old military get up.



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> You people do not think! Get rid of the army stuff and go back to being what you are...Children who are learning to be cadets, not soldiers.



Thank you very much for insulting the entire cadet orgainzation. While you may have strong feeling on this, as you've demonstrated. Please. Treat us with respect. Not as a punching bag. Thank you for your help in the future.


----------



## Slim (27 Oct 2005)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Present in what way?   Within one metre?   Ten Metres?   One hundred Metres?
> Sure, if this cadet was to go on a killing rampage with their 3-inch Swiss Army Knife blade : That's totally blown out of proportion - a small cut resulting from an accident would never be enormously publicized as you're explaining it.



Cadets are not soldiers. Cadets are children. And correct me if I'm wrong but isn'tthis thread about *K-Bar COMBAT knives*?!



> Are you suggesting that men and women in the military never make mistakes?   There's NEVER been a young recruit that's done something wrong with a grenade, or even an experienced Corporal who's left their safety off?   Stop trying to make ridiculous statements because we're cadets - fact is that mistakes will happen, whether it's with a cadet or with someone in the Canadian Forces.
> The good cadets *are* the ones who come as recommended in the proper attire of Combat clothing for the weekend.



Why do you people children have to wear COMBAT unifroms!? You are not soldiers, Not sworn members of the armed forces and not entitled to them. Get over it and go back to wearing what you're supposed to...Not COMBAT unifroms. there's no reason for it!

And as for serving soldiers making mistakes...Of course they do. However they are part of a system that can deal with hurt of killed people, broken equipment or lost members on exercise.

Here we have cadets, carrying knives, dressed like soldiers and wearing helmets. There's no reason for it!


----------



## condor888000 (27 Oct 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> Cadets are not soldiers. Cadets are children. And correct me if I'm wrong but isn'tthis thread about *K-Bar COMBAT knives*?!


Yes but it seems to have morphed into more of a general knife thread.



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> Why do you people children have to wear COMBAT unifroms!? You are not soldiers, Not sworn members of the armed forces and not entitled to them. Get over it and go back to wearing what you're supposed to...Not COMBAT unifroms. there's no reason for it!



Ok, but yet what would you have us wear in the bush? Combats are avaible, cheap, and durable enough for our purposes. They fit the bill, and if Joe Civvie wears them with a anarchy smybol on them, whats wrong with us having a set too? And wasn't this thread about knives?  



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> Here we have cadets, carrying knives, dressed like soldiers and wearing helmets. There's no reason for it!


Carrying knives to assist them in their jobs, wearing combats so as not to destroy their oun clothes which are more expensive are wearing helmets beacause htey can. Even though the helmets serve no purpose. Sound about right? Cause it does to me.


----------



## Slim (27 Oct 2005)

Sorry guys, but I have a tough time getting my head around the whole thing.

When I was a cadet we were never allowed to wear combat uniforms over and above a shirt and pants. We wern't even allowed to blouse the pants into boots.

I realize that kids are always pushing to do more and its coll to dress up like real soldiers...But to my mind you have to be careful about what sort of image and mindset the kids get from that and portray to others. All we need is an accident of some sort and for the media to show and and see a bunch of kids dressed in CADPATwith helmets and big knives and the like...


----------



## D-n-A (27 Oct 2005)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> We have the same ranks, the same basic outline of training



Same rank structure, sure but you don't have to go through any real leadership courses to get them though

Also, the same basic outline of training? Not even close.



			
				ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Should I just sit at home and wait for the time to come, or should I join cadets, learn the drill, ranks, and what to expect, and go to the military Reserves prepared?



Cadets won't really prepare you for the military. Yea, your know some drill and the rank structure, but thats about it. Plus you learn most of that in the first week of basic.


----------



## condor888000 (27 Oct 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> When I was a cadet we were never allowed to wear combat uniforms over and above a shirt and pants. We wern't even allowed to blouse the pants into boots.



Sounds like a great way to go about it. Same general rules as at 51, only we can wear the boots are are encouraged to blouse if we so chose. While wearing cadet insgnia of course. Anything else gets in the way in my opinion.



			
				Slim said:
			
		

> I realize that kids are always pushing to do more and its coll to dress up like real soldiers...But to my mind you have to be careful about what sort of image and mindset the kids get from that and portray to others. All we need is an accident of some sort and for the media to show and and see a bunch of kids dressed in CADPATwith helmets and big knives and the like...



Once again I agree. Which is why it would make sense at least in my mind, for there to be a limit on what sorts of knives that could be brought, ie: a little multi-tool of folding pocket knife is a go, but a big fixed blade hunting knife isn't. Lets say a folding blade of no bigger than 3". Should be big enough for most jobs, and though it is possible to injure someone, hopefully a slip if one did happen wouldn't be very serious. 

The whole helmet thing......... :-\ Doesn't seem smart at all to me. Not at all. Neither does the wearing of webbing/tac vests. Even though I own webbing. That I no longer use as I grew up a bit and realized a backpack works just as well. And is more comfortable.


----------



## medic65726 (27 Oct 2005)

Back to the Knife thread.............
To suggest that cadets should not be able to carry knives at all, I think is ridiculous. Should they be restricted in what they carry? Yes. Should thye be instructed on proper use? Yes.
When I joined Scouts, at 11 years old, I was allowed to carry a folding knife, after I had been instructed in safe use and care of it. Multiple (4) minor infractions or blatant unsafe behaviour, resulted in revocation of that priviledge. After your 1st year, for the remaining 2 years or so, you would be allowed to carry a fixed blade/sheath knife (maximum 6" blade) with those same restrictions. 
Perhaps a similar idea would be good within Cadets. I have carried a folding pocket knife, every day of my life, since about the age of 12. Have I ever cut myself, yes, but use any tool enough and you may hurt yourself with it. It is a matter of due care and dilligence. Things that are well within the scope to be taught to cadets. Teach responsible useage, not restrict it.
And as for a Cadet on a murderous rampage........could be done with anything, not just a knife.....Hell I've seen tents torched by accident.........
A knife is not necessarily a weapon...... as per the Criminal Code, a weapon is anything i) used, ii) designed to be used, iii) or intended to be used........... to injur or harm others.
Many things fall into this category.......................
as well as taking knives away from cadets....why don't we create a national registry of all knives......hell anything that could be used as a weapon........... 
I am presently brandishing a very dangerous looking toothbrush......maybe I should give it up, or register it..........


----------



## Slim (27 Oct 2005)

Medic65726 said:
			
		

> When I joined Scouts, at 11 years old, I was allowed to carry a folding knife, after I had been instructed in safe use and care of it. Multiple (4) minor infractions or blatant unsafe behaviour, resulted in revocation of that priviledge. After your 1st year, for the remaining 2 years or so, you would be allowed to carry a fixed blade/sheath knife (maximum 6" blade) with those same restrictions.



Great idea. I'm all for teaching rather than restricting. My point was focused on the fact that the above comments were beig made about carrying a knife that was manufactured as a (damn good) working tool but has the image of a fighting knife. This seems to be the whole point in this thread...Almost like they want to carry something for its 'coolness' rather than safety and functionality.

When I was serving in the Armoured Corps I carried one of thse kinives while on ex. It was probably the greatest working tool I ever had and damn near indestructable...In fact if you did break it all you had to do to get a new one free of charge was to send both halffs of the thing back to the company that made it. 

I had a good and justifyable reason to carry the thing...these kids aren't doing that type of work and if they are fully supervised as someone claimed above then the powers that be can have the great big knife/machete/ sword/whatever. My parents would have gone off the deep end if they'd seen me with one of those things!




> Teach responsible useage, not restrict it.
> And as for a Cadet on a murderous rampage........could be done with anything, not just a knife.....heck I've seen tents torched by accident.........



Good idea, great idea in fact...Is anyone doing it for cadets?




> A knife is not necessarily a weapon...... as per the Criminal Code, a weapon is anything i) used, ii) designed to be used, iii) or intended to be used........... to injur or harm others.
> Many things fall into this category.......................



I'm going to assume that you meant me with the above comments. I wasn't thinking of one of them going postal. Not even the worst helmet wearing mirror sunglass wearing CADPAT wannabe would do something like that...But what if one gets lost, or gets in a confrontation with other local kids who don't like army people and can't/won't tell the difference! You know who's side the public will take...especially after the media gets hold of the story!

Now add a fighting knife to the above situation! 




> why don't we create a national registry of all knives......heck anything that could be used as a weapon...........
> I am presently brandishing a very dangerous looking toothbrush......maybe I should give it up, or register it..........



Please don't waste my time with comments like that.


----------



## condor888000 (27 Oct 2005)

Closest thing for air cadets is one 35 min class if you do aircrew that covers knife safety, axe safety, saw safety, and believe it or not, shovel safety. We also do that class at 51 to level 3+ on bush weekends. So 14-15 year olds are when they are introduced at my unit. As I said, only 2 cadets in my unit bother to carry any form of knife at all during bush exs. Myself and a cadet that did the SI course. So not a problem here, but I like the idea of limiting what they could carry until certain criteria have been met. I'm not sure a fixed blade knife would be required at my unit, but I could see that varying so the option does make sense.


----------



## Burrows (28 Oct 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> In my cadet days they didn't trust me with knives, I had to use a spork for everything.


I chopped down a tree with a spoon.


----------



## condor888000 (28 Oct 2005)

Was it a plastic one?


----------



## Burrows (28 Oct 2005)

paper.


----------



## condor888000 (28 Oct 2005)

I bow to the all holy mod of the cadets!


----------



## sgt_mandal (28 Oct 2005)

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Closest thing for air cadets is one 35 min class if you do aircrew that covers knife safety, axe safety, saw safety, and believe it or not, shovel safety.



419.01 level 1.... 8)


----------



## redleafjumper (28 Oct 2005)

This is getting really silly.  A knife is not exactly high technology and quite frankly the 'mommy democracy', 'safety police' attitude in this country is getting way out of hand.  When I was in cadets, granted a while ago, I did all sorts of wonderful things with sharp toys, rifles and even machineguns.  One of the key successes of the cadet programme was that young people are given responsibility and limited authority and react well with it.  Teach them well, and support them and they will do just fine.  Slim, implying that just because a cadet is carrying a knife on an exercise is an invitation to trouble is far overstating the case.  Is it reasonable to discourage packing fighting knives and commando daggers at cadet training? - well, sure it is; teach them to use something appropriate useful for the purpose.  It is very important that the adults set an example.  But banning knives? That's 'over the top' (pardon the pun).  

It is, however, important to remember that a key part of the aim of the Cadet programme is to "...encourage an interest in the land, air and sea elements of the Canadian Armed Forces."  Using real army equipment and dressing the part is how that interest is developed.  If it wasn't for the cool uniforms, swords, bayonets and rifles that my old corps used to use when I was an army cadet, I would have stayed in the scouts.  In my experience, trust and responsibility work well with young people.  It all builds respect - hey, it worked for me and it has worked for several tens of thousands of cadets for many decades.


----------



## Slim (28 Oct 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> But, but Mr. Slim...I did join the army.
> 
> See?



...And swore an oath, and can now be considered responsible, and now have a legal reason to wear CADPAT.


----------



## Slim (28 Oct 2005)

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Survival - one of the biggest parts to know what to do, includes carrying a small knife which would allow you to strip bark, cut small branches, cut clothing or material, and cut through rope.   Not to mention a safety factor, as well as hunting should survival become extreme.



I agree 100%



> I'm also under the agreement that we don't need to have Cadets walking around in CADPAT - save it for the men and women in the armed forces who would like to wear it.   It's not necessary to fight over it when some people will wear it, and some people won't.



They don't have much of a choice. Its the CF land uniform. 



> However, using the excuse "cadets don't need to be wearing camouflage" isn't valid.   If you think about it, do the men and women in the military even need to be in camouflage while they're attending a classroom seminar, or training around the armoury?   Do you need to be in CADPAT while you're doing small tasks where camouflage isn't essential?   No, but you're wearing it for what purpose?   Probably ones that are similar to that of the cadets who would like to wear the older OD Combats - uniformity, to look professional, and it's general handiness when it comes to carrying around a day's worth of things.



Back before you started cadets there was a uniform called workdress, which is what cadet uniforms are in fact based on. It was meant as a uniform to be worn in areas other than the field, which would allow the CF to save the combat or 'operational ' dress for field ex's.

The CF has done away with workdress for the land element (maybe the Airfoce as well, I don't know) in order to save money. The members are told what to wear and don't have a choice in the matter. Its not a questin of like or dislike. the simple fact is that its their job to wear those clothes and assume the responsability that goes with it...


----------



## WO2 Gubbels (28 Oct 2005)

In my unit I was aloud knife, and if we had any other SI grads they could as well.  Before I was swo, the swo used to carry a knife too.  Other then that any knifes were confiscated.  A knife does come in handy sometimes especially if you are teaching a class where you need it for stuff, but they are not needed by most people.  I do have a survival knife and ka-bar at home but i never bring those on a cadet ex, I always bring a smaller choice.  

      JG


----------



## Peace (28 Oct 2005)

Any tool bigger than a pocket knife that would be nessissairy SHOULD be provided to you in the means of a pioneer tools store.

As for the air force work dress, it is not being issued anymore BUT if you were around when it was here i think you can still wear it. other than that airforce wear flightsuits and EME's (land) wear overalls sometimes. So Airforce now have the same workdress as us (land) with the blue ranks and name tapes. Im not possitive on the exact rule of the old workdress but i do still see it on occasion in Borden at the JR mess. never on anything less than a cpl tho.


----------



## PViddy (28 Oct 2005)

It will still be an order of dress for us CIC types until (or if) we get authorization to draw CADPAT like our Army counterparts.  So you see some Officer types around, you'll know why.

cheers

PV


----------



## ryanmann356 (28 Oct 2005)

I have never seen any pictures in any branch of the media that depicted cadets with knives, helmets, combats and other soldier like things.  The *ONLY* pictures I have seen in the media of any cadet in any of the branches are young good mannered children selling poppies in FULL DRESS UNIFORM.  Whether or not the cadets are allowed to have kabar knives or helmets is entirely up to the CO.  I highly doubt that a cadet would injure himself with a knife so horribly that it would be depicted on the news.  Most cadets have a little bit of common sense, to not run with a knife and stab themselves or buddy.  In my corps if an officer saw you playing around with a knife and endangering buddy, you'd be in the truck getting RTU'd faster than you can say "yes sir" and you would probably have a stripe ripped off your brassard and the cadets are made FULLY aware of this fact.  Cadets wear combats because we are allowed too.  They are perfect for the field and are practical.  If there was a persistan problem with this then they would not issue it at CSTCs or in some cases at the LHQ.  Cadets wear big huge brassards that say C-A-D-E-T for a reason on their combat uniforms.


----------



## alan_li_13 (28 Oct 2005)

> Whether or not the cadets are allowed to have kabar knives or helmets is entirely up to the CO.  I highly doubt that a cadet would injure himself with a knife so horribly that it would be depicted on the news.  Most cadets have a little bit of common sense, to not run with a knife and stab themselves or buddy.



You'd be surprised. Blackdown CSTC 2003, Delta Company CL, week 4 ftx. A kid got stabbed in the ribs because another kid was playing with his little gerber. He was lucky he hit bone instead of the space in between. I had to do first aid. Imagine if that WAS a K-bar.



> I have never seen any pictures in any branch of the media that depicted cadets with knives, helmets, combats and other soldier like things.  The ONLY pictures I have seen in the media of any cadet in any of the branches are young good mannered children selling poppies in FULL DRESS UNIFORM.



How can you say that when you have as your avatar a picture of (presumably) you in combat dress holding a weapon?  :


----------



## Burrows (28 Oct 2005)

aspiring officer said:
			
		

> How can you say that when you have as your avatar a picture of (presumably) you in combat dress holding a weapon?  :


 Well, it wasn't published by the media was it?


----------



## Cpl.K Soomro (28 Oct 2005)

Aight you guys, thx for all your great advice, i see that i created a bit of conflict. that wasn't what  i meant to do. I figured out a solution and am planning to get a 4 inch still blade knife that looks cool and is functional for bush ex's. one again thx

KS


----------



## alan_li_13 (29 Oct 2005)

> Well, it wasn't published by the media was it?



Media does not only mean main stream newspapers, evening news, etc. The Internet is also a medium. It's on a forum that can be viewed by anybody.


----------



## Burrows (29 Oct 2005)

I'm pretty sure he meant a newspaper, or television.


----------



## Slim (29 Oct 2005)

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure he meant a newspaper, or television.



I meant any form of communication that calls *negative attention * to the cadet program.


----------



## Slim (29 Oct 2005)

Yes we do...Why do you think I'm trying so hard to discourage cadts asking about CADPAT, knives and other military goodies...


----------



## Slim (29 Oct 2005)

OK...The below post is from 2332Piper and is relevant to what we're discussing hereSo I decided to post it.

As long as they are clearly ID'd as cadets and are wearing a different uniform (which is what we have now) then everything is just hunky-dory.

If cadets upped up their policy regarding dress and deportment and really enforced it, then we wouldn't have this issue. American cadets can wear the same uniform as their military because (I have met many US cadets when I was in) their D&D standards far exceed what we have here (and I mean everyone in general, yes there are always the cadets who take pride etc). Therefore, there is no issue if a cadet is confused with a military member down there because the is no real difference in dress standards. But here...a cadet corp in the woods looks like a rebel army (don't worry, I wore a mix-match too when I was a cadet...OD combats, garrison jacket...OD tilly hat...those were the days) and when they are wearing combats in 'garrison' it isn't much better (the only exception being at summer camp where standards can actually be truely enforced).

Bring every single cadet's D&D standards to what you have at cadet camp (uniform worn properly, blackened boots and no mix-match of civvie vs. military kit) and maybe it would be alright for everyone to wear CADPAT and whatnot. Thats the issue at hand (re: the uniforms), at least in my case. I look back at pics of me at cadets and I wonder what people on the street thought of us when they saw us (again, minus summer camp).

Cadets is a great org and I'm all for a military-styled org for youth (I was in it...duhh). However, if you want to all look like soldiers and play like soldiers (or sailors, airmen etc) then you have to act like them too. We in the CF have a few bad apples but they are mostly cancelled out by the good ones. Cadets on the other hand...the good ones (dress-wise) are cancelled out by the many crummy ones. People doing the real thing take pride in a good issued uniform (unless your KevinB and replace all your kit with non-issue stuff  ) and it irks them to see a bunch of kids running around playing soldier looking like a ragtag bunch of Taliban.

There is a challenge for all cadets on this site, start writing D-Cadets asking for stricter rules on D&D and some sort of method to enforce it (two warnings...third your out of cadets for good as an example), start enforcing uniformality at the corp level, for example, when in the bush, either proper uniform (all kit is OD, all boots are black/brown etc) or all civvie gear...no mix-match etc. And EVERYONE wears the big cadet brassard at all times (no trying to get away with wearing nothing, or OD rank slip ons etc, something the seniors usually like to do because they can get away with it). Something like that. The in a few years, once CADPAT maybe loses its controlled status and there is no OD left and they start issuing old CADPAT gear at summer camps because there is nothing else, then hey, knock yourselves out with the CADPAT. But first, increase the standards to what the CF has and then you may start wearing the same kit the CF does.

Just my two cents and as usual I take it WAY off topic.


And now me... 

There are many sides to this issue and we all seem to have some strong feelings about this rather hot topic.

I think we're all going to have to agree to disagree.

the cadets see one side of this topic and do not have the perspective that the CF regular and reserve emebrs do.

The reg and reserve members for their part seem to recognize the pitfalls of having the cadets dressed like them.

I am now going to lock this one as I think that it's gone as far sas it can go without re-degenerating into chaos.

If anyone has a further point then PM me and we'll see where we stand.

But I think, personally, that tis all been covered.

Cheers

Slim

STAFF


----------

