# CANFORGEN on proper wear of new Bush Cap



## Highland Laddie (2 Sep 2004)

Has anyone seen the CANFORGEN that spells out the proper wear of the new Bush Cap / Soft Cap that replaced the old 'Robin Hood' style hat (their words)? It states that the brim is to be worn downwards, and is not to be pushed upwards a la Aussie style. Can you believe someone actual got worked up on this issue, and then actually spent the time to issue a CANFORGEN?? And we have no other more pressing matters in DND?? :


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## Michael OLeary (2 Sep 2004)

> The easiest and quickest path into the esteem of traditional military authorities is by the appeal to the eye rather than the mind. The 'polish and pipeclay' school is not yet extinct, and it is easier for the mediocre intelligence to become an authority on buttons than on tactics. (March 1925.) - Liddell-Hart, Thoughts on War, 1944



(It doesn't asnswer the question, but it's still a great quote from my files.)


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## The_Solecist (2 Sep 2004)

Highland Laddie said:
			
		

> Has anyone seen the CANFORGEN that spells out the proper wear of the new Bush Cap / Soft Cap that replaced the old 'Robin Hood' style hat (their words)?



No yet.

The only time I was ever jacked up for the Robin Hood Style wearing of the old bush cap, was at CFSCE in the field.  At my unit, they would be happy enough to see me wearing it at all.

Given that it is field kit, I'd think the personal comfort of the soldier comes into play somewhat... like sleeves rolled up/down.


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## G .Dundas (2 Sep 2004)

During the 3 VP's Afgan tour as soon as it   seemed safe enough the brass arrived and during one of those infamous morale boosting talks so beloved   by the Brass .When one troop made the mistake of complaining of ammo shortages He got reamed for wasting same and then one of the sr. officers present starting roasting the troops for destroying Govt property ( field hats) by shortning the brims.
 A friend who was there described as so surreal   as to defy belief.It would seem that Afganistan is considered a combat zone by everybody except NDHQ. For futher reference   read the the lessons learned   document put out by 3 VP and then (if memory serves came out a week after it) the Canforgen On modifying feild equipt. esp webbing.
 Repeat after me, there are no problems ! Repeat   twice more. Any thing I tell you three times is true!        : ??? :dontpanic:


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## childs56 (2 Sep 2004)

seems that the combat desk jockeys are doing their evaluation of field kit for use in the office again.  it always amazes me when your told what you can and cant do with your kit, yet when you ask about more ammo or equipment they dodge the question and turn it around in that because of you modifying your field cap or cutting stings off your CBTs that you are causing the equipment shortage. I havnt seen the Canforgen but it realy doesnt shock me at all. keep up the good work. Ubique


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## Michael Dorosh (2 Sep 2004)

G .Dundas said:
			
		

> For futher reference  read the the lessons learned  document put out by 3 VP and then (if memory serves came out a week after it) the Canforgen On modifying feild equipt. esp webbing.



Could you post some relevant quotes for those of us without access to these documents?  Sounds interesting.

Nothing new under the sun; I have in my possession copies of Canadian Army Routine Orders from WW II, which I used in the research of my second book, expressly forbidding the use of the anti-gas cape as a rain garment.  The order had to be repeated many times during the war, mainly because troops in the field just ignored it utterly.  I also have seen many great photos of the anti-gas cape being used as a rain poncho.  Considering that poison gas was never used during WW II (well, outside of Suffield, I mean  ) I think it was damn nice of those soldiers to use the anti-gas capes so cost-effectively, saving the gummint from having to buy rain ponchos over and above.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Sep 2004)

I've seen some guys cut the brim on their combat hats. I was going to do it because i find the brim is just too big but i havent got around to it yet. Some people are really stupid about it and cut it WAY too short which often leads them to requiring a new one. I can see how this is considered a waste of funds.

I can also see why it's on the books as to how to wear something. Other wise someone is going to take it too far or just do something stupid, IE wearing the old field cap like a baseball hat and you just know someone is going to argue "Show me in the books where it says i have to wear it a certain way".


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## Jungle (2 Sep 2004)

I remember reading something about the wearing of the field hat in a CANLANDGEN. And from what I remember, you can wear it just about any way you like... but you can't cut it !!!


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## ModlrMike (2 Sep 2004)

Jungle said:
			
		

> I remember reading something about the wearing of the field hat in a CANLANDGEN. And from what I remember, you can wear it just about any way you like... but you can't cut it !!!



Actually, according to the CANLANDGEN you can wear it any way that it comes out of the box... but you can't cut it *or* shape it. Contrary to the many pictures you see of "brims up, strings on top" type of wear.


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## 12alfa (2 Sep 2004)

Durning the past Arcon I wore mine backwards, you know , with the illum thingee's up front. My tp Ldr said" you know your hat is on backwards", I said yes sir!.
 There is not a said method of wearing them by what I saw in the field, but some SSM's will still ream you out if it does not conform to "their" standard.

I'll wear mine backwards to push a few more buttons, lol.


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## George Wallace (3 Sep 2004)

12Alfa said:
			
		

> Durning the past Arcon I wore mine backwards, you know , with the illum thingee's up front. My tp Ldr said" you know your hat is on backwards", I said yes sir!.
> There is not a said method of wearing them by what I saw in the field, but some SSM's will still ream you out if it does not conform to "their" standard.
> 
> I'll wear mine backwards to push a few more buttons, lol.



Don't tell us.......John Cretin is your hero. ;D

GW


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## Scoobie Newbie (3 Sep 2004)

Its always good to have a shizen magnet in any unit.  Keeps the flack of the rest of us.


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## Infanteer (3 Sep 2004)

As Mr O'Leary clearly pointed out, these types of things are a sad indicator of level of professionalism possessed by the bureaucracy that commands us....


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## Pencil Tech (3 Sep 2004)

Interestingly enough, the very first page of the reserves section on the official Army web site, "The Armoury", shows a soldier wearing it up Aussie cowboy style.


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## 12alfa (4 Sep 2004)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Don't tell us.......John Cretin is your hero. ;D
> 
> GW



Not quite.

this is the 1st time I've worn mine, I prefer the beret when dismounted, and a helmet when mounted. It's hard to drop the black beret after 30+ years.


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## Spr.Earl (4 Sep 2004)

Highland Laddie said:
			
		

> Has anyone seen the CANFORGEN that spells out the proper wear of the new Bush Cap / Soft Cap that replaced the old 'Robin Hood' style hat (their words)? It states that the brim is to be worn downwards, and is not to be pushed upwards a la Aussie style. Can you believe someone actual got worked up on this issue, and then actually spent the time to issue a CANFORGEN?? And we have no other more pressing matters in DND?? :



What a stupid question!!
It comes as is and there is only one way to wear it!


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## Fraser.g (4 Sep 2004)

OK so would that be with the strap to the front under the chin or to the back a la Sam Brown?


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## BDTyre (4 Sep 2004)

I find this odd because:

a) When wearing a headset, the brim is naturally forced down over the ears, thus muffling the sound.  Therefore, when wearing a headset, it makes more sense to push the brim up.

b) The CF used to issue Tilley hats (forget the model -T3, maybe?), which oddly, have snaps to snap the brim up.  Did anyone ever complain about that?

Maybe the solution is to have two hats: one left as it is issued for parade use, wearing around higher ranks, etc. and one for field use.


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## Spr.Earl (4 Sep 2004)

RN PRN said:
			
		

> OK so would that be with the strap to the front under the chin or to the back a la Sam Brown?


It's too fit the back of you head so it stays on!!
Wait till I tell Demo!!


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## BDTyre (4 Sep 2004)

Maybe they should have just issued the Tilley.  It comes in Olive green.  There is no problem reverting the brim back to down style after having worn it up.  There's two straps -one for behind the head, one for under the chin.

And from what I understand, they are cheaper than the CADPAT bush hats.


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## Bartok5 (4 Sep 2004)

Show me an $18 CAD Tilley Hat, and I'll buy it.  That is the current replacement cost of the Wide-Brim Combat Hat (WBCH).  For those of us who paid $83 for a replacement WBCH a couple of years ago, apparently that was just a stock-keeping "glitch".  Get over it, and move on......


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## Spr.Earl (4 Sep 2004)

Mark C said:
			
		

> Show me an $18 CAD Tilley Hat, and I'll buy it.   That is the current replacement cost of the Wide-Brim Combat Hat (WBCH).   For those of us who paid $83 for a replacement WBCH a couple of years ago, apparently that was just a stock-keeping "glitch".   Get over it, and move on......



Thank you ! 
Its a good hat and I have used the back flap to protect the back of my neck in the sun.
I also made sure my hat was 1/8 th. larger when it came to hot weather!!

Over come and adapt and shut the F' up!!

There again who are complaing?


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## BDTyre (4 Sep 2004)

I wasn't aware the replacement price on the CADPAT hats had dropped...that puts things in a different light! 

I've not got the WBCH (not actually in the CF yet), but I do have similar hats, and I've got friends who have been issued their WBCH, and I've heard no complaints.

I just think its silly that they need to issue an order on how to wear a hat.


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## Fraser.g (4 Sep 2004)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> It's too fit the back of you head so it stays on!!
> Wait till I tell Demo!!



That would be Sam Brown not Sammy D although the picture of Demo with his bush cap strap firmly strapped under his chin in a wind storm is somewhat humorous.

I agree that the strap should be in the back and that is how I wear it because it just makes sense but I was playing devils advocate with my comment. 

In any group, when given the option of doing it incorrectly, you will find those whose imagination far outweighs common sense and logic.

GF


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## pegged (4 Sep 2004)

"Your headlights are on..."


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Sep 2004)

when the wind blows from the front I wear it as a chin strap.
From the rear I wear it at the base of my skull


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## childs56 (4 Sep 2004)

I use to wear mine folded up at the front when i wasnt wearing my helmet. It kept getting in the way of looking through the sight on the old howitzer, also when I fired the c9 I wore it with the brim up, also when I fired my rifle with the brim up. when the wind blew the brim moved up on its own. any ways some like it worn aussie style, some like it flat, some iron the brims so the look nice in the field, others have put a coat hanger in the brim to hold it straight, some fold it up in the front and back what ever your method we must make sure that this is for the field only and not in garrison, how you dress in the field taking in consideration operational requirements should be up to the comfort of the individual. COMFORT is paramount when engaged in operations. no desk jocky should ever tell a field soldier how to wear field kit no matter what.


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## Scoobie Newbie (4 Sep 2004)

Well how about the RSM who tells members of Recce platoon to get new hats after they cut them because they were too wide?


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## excoelis (5 Sep 2004)

"Some men you just can't reach"   :

Let me put it to you this way:

I'm (edit).   Do you think I will get to do that if I 'fall on my sword' over an issue like the modification of bush hats?   The troops have to realise the same thing.   If they walk around flaunting the dress regs then they are drawing attention to themselves(and their unit) unnecessarily.   Not quite in line with the stealth, cunning, and mental agility you would expect from a Recce ptlmn is it?   Or any 'Quiet Professional' for that matter.

Treat it like a Pathfinder immediate action drill.   If you have a chance contact your priority is to break contact as quickly and efficiently as possible, regroup, and push on with your mission.   You can't afford to attrit your force when every man is crucial to the success of the higher mission.   So, in the case of my example, as much as you would like to kick ass, it is not the aim of the patrol.   The aim of your small force is to set up the means of insertion necessary to bring in a much larger force as safely and efficiently as possible.   This follow-on force can then make a much larger impact by virtue of their numbers and eqpt. 

IMO, If you wish to operate in the field with some leeway and credibility then display a high level of decorum in garrison, when in the public eye, or when under scrutiny.   'Fight the good fight', if you will.   If there are members in your chain of command that you feel judge your competency by how 'proper' you look in garrison then play the Heartbreak Ridge game, and think of it in the same humurous light as you did when you first saw all of Gunny Highway's troops out there on PT with a handful of different coloured shirts.

If you can't survive the challenges that are inherent to dress and deportment issues, and operate with some flexibility in these matters, then you are in for a long and frustrating career.   Try to treat it like a field problem.   You don't complain about changing your scrim and camouflage to adapt to the changing environment in the field, do you????


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## G .Dundas (5 Sep 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Could you post some relevant quotes for those of us without access to these documents?   Sounds interesting.


   
     It's been a while since I seen the document .I think it might be found either the Army's lessons learned or by doing a google search.Wish I could be of more help.
 The only reason   I remember the documents was the utter absurdity of what I perceived to be NDHQ 's responce to a valid   action by troops to wartime realties.


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## Acorn (7 Sep 2004)

excoelis said:
			
		

> IMO, If you wish to operate in the field with some leeway and credibility then display a high level of decorum in garrison, when in the public eye, or when under scrutiny.   'Fight the good fight', if you will.   If there are members in your chain of command that you feel judge your competency by how 'proper' you look in garrison then play the Heartbreak Ridge game, and think of it in the same humurous light as you did when you first saw all of Gunny Highway's troops out there on PT with a handful of different coloured shirts.
> 
> If you can't survive the challenges that are inherent to dress and deportment issues, and operate with some flexibility in these matters, then you are in for a long and frustrating career.   Try to treat it like a field problem.   You don't complain about changing your scrim and camouflage to adapt to the changing environment in the field, do you????



The oft-misused quote: "no parade-ready troops are ever ready for combat and no combat-ready troops ready for parade" is all too often used as an excuse for sloppy dress and deportment in garrison. The fact is that good field soldiers have the discipline to be good garrison soldiers - if you can put up with the BS of bad weather, infrequent rest, spotty feeding and having some bugger periodically shoot at you, you can certainly put up with someone telling you how to wear your hat. 

And, as someone implied, if you want to cut off the brim, at least get yourself a second one for garrison wear. Hell, I remember getting a second razor for my TQ3 infantry so I'd always have a clean one for the DS to throw across the room.

Yeesh, will people be complaining about blackened boots next?

Acorn


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## NMPeters (7 Sep 2004)

I can't seem to find a CANFORGEN or CANLANDGEN pertaining to this. Not from 2004 anyway. If you can give me an approximate time frame when it was issued, I can look it up and copy and paste it on here for you. Cheers!


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## Bzzliteyr (7 Sep 2004)

Yeah.. I was noticing that as I browsed here at work..odd..no CANFORGEN to speak of.. could this be a RUMOURGEN message?


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## ModlrMike (7 Sep 2004)

Brangwyn Jones said:
			
		

> Yeah.. I was noticing that as I browsed here at work..odd..no CANFORGEN to speak of.. could this be a RUMOURGEN message?



I remember seeing a message in 2003 or 2002 regarding wear and care of the Wide Brimmed Combat Hat. I can't remember if it was a CANFORGEN or not. What I do remember is that there was to be no alterations and no forming. Regardless, it is a piece of uniform... and the word uniform means... all the same. If folks are unhappy with the way a piece of kit performs they can put in a UCR (Unsatisfactory Condition Report).


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## G .Dundas (7 Sep 2004)

Brangwyn Jones said:
			
		

> Yeah.. I was noticing that as I browsed here at work..odd..no CANFORGEN to speak of.. could this be a RUMOURGEN message?


   Could be but I know I saw something on unauthorised mods to equipment.Just after the release of the 3VP report which spent a great deal of ink of the mods necassary to current issue gear.
 As far as I can remember the canforgen was on basicily to do with looking like a cdn soldier and the undesireabilty of using either forgien   or commercial products


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## Canadian Patriot (7 Sep 2004)

Ever notice when you wear the hat, the brim is always wavy? 
When was the last time any of you saw a perfectly horizontal line in nature?
Coincidence? The reason the brim is long and floppy is, get this, TO BREAK UP THE SHAPE OF YOUR HEAD. Thats why you shouldn't lop off the brim, or wear it Aussie style, or put a coat hanger in it. All those things make the brim straighter, which gets you caught, which gets me shot.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't wear it straight out of the box either; I long ago got rid of that neck flap that's tucked in the top...I used it as a hankerchief one cold ex. I keep the drawstring tucked up in the top pouch, because it chaffs the backs of my ears, I only use it at night when moving through the woods because the branches knock it off, and in the wind. I also tuck the top of the hat in the front down to make it ride a little higher. None of this compromises its basic function though.


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## Michael Dorosh (7 Sep 2004)

G .Dundas said:
			
		

> Could be but I know I saw something on unauthorised mods to equipment.Just after the* release of the 3VP report which spent a great deal of ink of the mods necassary to current issue gear.*



What the hell would 3VP know, they only served on combat operations in a theatre of war.  It's not like they paraded for the Queen or something important.  How _dare they!!!!!_

Is there a copy of that report floating around cyberspace somewhere, incidentally?  I know Mark C has posted extensively (and to a warm reception, at least among the infantrymen I've talked to) on what his company did in Afghanistan vis a vis weapons and kit, would love to read more, if it is available.


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## Matt_Fisher (7 Sep 2004)

Lasagna said:
			
		

> Ever notice when you wear the hat, the brim is always wavy?
> When was the last time any of you saw a perfectly horizontal line in nature?
> Coincidence? The reason the brim is long and floppy is, get this, TO BREAK UP THE SHAPE OF YOUR HEAD. Thats why you shouldn't lop off the brim, or wear it Aussie style, or put a coat hanger in it. All those things make the brim straighter, which gets you caught, which gets me shot.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, I don't wear it straight out of the box either; I long ago got rid of that neck flap that's tucked in the top...I used it as a hankerchief one cold ex. I keep the drawstring tucked up in the top pouch, because it chaffs the backs of my ears, I only use it at night when moving through the woods because the branches knock it off, and in the wind. I also tuck the top of the hat in the front down to make it ride a little higher. None of this compromises its basic function though.



 :

Sorry to come across as a jerk, but this has to be one of the biggest donkey comments that I've heard in a while.   If you're all bent-up (quite literally here) about avoiding straight lines, maybe you might want to avoid the one that's approximately a metre long:   Your rifle?

First of all, if somebody is so close that they can see that the brim of your hat is wavy as opposed to straight, chances are that they already see you which means that they're already in the process of shooting at you if they intend on doing so.   Unless you're a sniper, on some Long-range Recce. det (ie. pathfinder) or are a sneaky-beaky JTF type, all ghillie suited up and blending in with your environment in a semi-static hide location, your survival in battle is probably more dependent on your ability to use effective fire & maneuveur skills than your camo.

If you find that the big sombrero type brim doesn't obscure your field of vision, then fine.   However I think that something like the bush hat should be available for personal purchase so troops can modify it (to a reasonable extent) so it works effectively for them.   That way the issue ones don't "get destroyed".   

The Marpat boonie caps that we use have huuuuge sombrero flaps on them and the first thing that most of us did was take them down to the tailor shop and get them chopped and resewn so that they wouldn't flop down in front of our eyes.   So far we haven't had anyone freak out on us, especially seeing as how the boonie is only authorized for field use.


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## NMPeters (7 Sep 2004)

CANLANDGEN 033/02

271310Z SEP 02

SUBJ: INTERIM DRESS POLICY CLOTHE THE SOLDIER (CTS) â â€œ WIDE
BRIMMED COMBAT HAT (WBCH)

REF: CANLANDGEN  ½ 171600Z JAN 02

1. IN PARA 5 OF REF, I PROVIDED DIRECTION FOR THE WEARING
OF THE NEW CTS WBCH. THE FOL REPLACES PARA 5 OF REF IN ITS
ENTIRETY:

5. THE CADPAT WBCH REPLACES THE CURRENT GREEN QUOTE ROBIN
HOOD UNQUOTE STYLE COMBAT HAT NSN 8415-21-114-2995. THE
WBCH PROVIDES CONSIDERABLE IMPROVEMENT IN CAMOUFLAGE AND
CONCEALMENT CAPABILITY AS WELL AS SUN AND PRECIPITATION
PROTECTION INCLUDING AN ADD-ON NECK SCREEN. AS PER
PREVIOUS INSTRUCTIONS REGARDING THE WEAR OF THE QUOTE ROBIN
HOOD UNQUOTE STYLE COMBAT HAT, WHEN IN COMBAT CLOTHING THE
WBCH SHALL BE WORN IN OPERATIONS AND FIELD TRAINING AS THE
HEAD- DRESS OF PREFERENCE OVER ALL OTHER HEAD-DRESS WHERE
SAFETY RELATED IMPACT/BALLISTIC PROTECTIVE HEADWEAR IS NOT
REQUIRED. THE WBCH SHALL NOT BE ALTERED OR MODIFIED. NO,
REPEAT NO UNIT/BRANCH IDENTIFICATION SUCH AS IN THE FORM OF
A HATBADGE WILL BE AFFIXED TO THE WBCH. FOR MAXIMUM
PROTECTION AGAINST THE ELEMENTS, IN THE FIELD, THE WBCH
SHOULD BE WORN WITH THE BRIM DOWN; HOWEVER, SOLDIERS MAY
WEAR THE BRIM UP OR DOWN WITH OR WITHOUT THE RETENTION
STRING SECURED BASED ON THE TACTICAL SITUATION. IN
GARRISON, THE BERET SHALL CONTINUE TO BE WORN WITH THE
DRESS OF THE DAY THAT INCLUDES FIELD COMBAT CLOTHING.
SHOULD THE WBCH BE WORN IN GARRISON IN PREPARATION FOR A
FIELD DEPLOYMENT OR AT THE END OF A FIELD DEPLOYMENT, FOR
STANDARDIZATION AND MAXIMUM PROTECTION AGAINST THE
ELEMENTS, THE HAT SHALL BE WORN WITH THE BRIM DOWN WITH OR
WITHOUT THE RETENTION STRING SECURED UNDER THE CHIN

2. I ASK THAT THIS AMENDMENT MESSAGE BE GIVEN THE WIDEST
DISTRIBUTION WITHIN LFC

SIGNED LGEN MK JEFFERY, CHIEF OF THE LAND


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## Highland Laddie (7 Sep 2004)

Brangwyn Jones said:
			
		

> Yeah.. I was noticing that as I browsed here at work..odd..no CANFORGEN to speak of.. could this be a RUMOURGEN message?



I don't have the link, but I do have the CANFORGEN in print version in my office. I'll dig up the hard copy and post the CANFORGEN date / time group and #.

EDIT: looks like someone already beat me to it.


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## Armymedic (7 Sep 2004)

I read the CANLANGEN msg as posted here...

*AND SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH IT!!!*

Now, quit your bitchin or we can give you back your Robin Hood hat so you can wear it with the flaps up and backwards on your head...


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## Scoobie Newbie (7 Sep 2004)

Matt_Fisher you know about the JTF.  I tought only playstation weenies and select CF members knew about them.


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## Matt_Fisher (7 Sep 2004)

CFL...didn't you know?  All us super-mall ninja silent sniper commando types that are worried about straight brims on our Wide Brimmed Combat Hats giving away our position know all about the JTF... ;D


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## George Wallace (7 Sep 2004)

Way to go CFL!.....Now you've gotten that topic started up again.........Incoming :warstory:

GW


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## Scoobie Newbie (7 Sep 2004)

Well if you put it that way then I was wondering.  I've heard about these JTF guys (I play Rainbow Six a lot) and how they are as good if not better then the SAS and was wondering how to go about asking the recuiter about getting me posted there right after basic.  Do I even need to do basic if I want to go to the JTF?


Shot over. :warstory:


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## Scott (7 Sep 2004)

They have to have a DE plan for the properly qualified....Rainbow Six oughtta be enough!! ;D


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## George Wallace (7 Sep 2004)

Step One:

Go to your local DOJO and purchase a nice pair of black silk pajamas.........TOF 65 SEconds


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## Scoobie Newbie (7 Sep 2004)

George I almost fell out of my chair.  With that said I've always admired Snake Eyes.  You know from GI JOE.  I bet he was also a excellent sniper in addition to being a first rate ninja.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Sep 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> George I almost fell out of my chair.  With that said I've always admired Snake Eyes.  You know from GI JOE.  I bet he was also a excellent sniper in addition to being a first rate ninja.



Skilled recce patrolman, too.  But if I recall my comic books correctly, he didn't wear his boonie cap according to regulations in NAM when he was on that final mission with Wade and Storm Shadow....


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## Armymedic (8 Sep 2004)

Rainbow Six is for infantry wannabes who need a team to accomplish the mission...

Real JTF ninja warrior wannabes get thier basic tng playing Delta Force, Land Warrior.


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## Scoobie Newbie (8 Sep 2004)

I RULE SOCOM II!


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