# Posting within PLD Zone HELP



## RyanC (8 Jan 2020)

Good Day All

I was hoping an admin guru could help me out. It is the dreaded posting season and I like many others have received a promotion and posting that I am none too happy with and I was wondering if anyone can help me out. Long story short is that I have been posted to Esquimalt for the past two years and purchased a home in Duncan well within the geographical boundary and a long yet tolerable commute for me (Roughly an hour one way with morning traffic ) The problem is that I did not get posted out of the area only my position changed to another base in the city which almost doubles my commute time! Best case Ontario is that my 1.5 hour daily commute which I signed on for is now going to be well above three hours.

Is there any entitlements I should be looking out for? Any administrative mumbo jumbo I can find? I hate to be that guy who is bitching about a posting and I never had in the past.( I have had some shitty ones) I find that I have done all reasonable due diligence in choosing where to live two years ago and I find it unreasonable for the crown to have me predict and prepare for such a move.

I am at a lose it will be a struggle financially as well as within the family unit. I am ready to move anywhere, get deployed anywhere but I am not ready for this, 

Found this interesting and fairly relevant ( https://www.canada.ca/en/military-grievances-external-review/services/case-summaries/case-2014-171.html )


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## dapaterson (9 Jan 2020)

Start with current CFIRP definition per below.  If a cost move would bring you over 40km closer, you may have justification.

https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/dnd-mdn/documents/military-benefits/cfirp/a-pp-005-irp-ag-001-cfirp-eff-19-april-2018.pdf

1.1.03 Eligibility application

The following are entitled to relocation benefits under the CFIRP:
• Regular Force members who are posted --- and Reserve Force members who accept a period of Class “B” or “C” service employment as per Chapter 13 --- who are also authorized to move their (D) HG&E from one place of duty to another only when the new residence is at least 40 kilometres closer to the new place of duty than the current residence.

The formula for calculating the distance is as follows:
1. Distance in kilometres between current residence and new place of duty = ______ km.

2. Distance in kilometres between new residence and new place of duty = ______ km.

3. Line 1 minus line 2 = ______ km.

When the difference is 40 km or more, relocation benefits are payable.


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## captloadie (14 Jan 2020)

But, unless the policy document has changed recently, a posting within the geographical boundaries of a location does not entitle a member to a subsidized move (unless they elect their IRP and their new residence is a minimum of 40km from their old residence). There have been several grievances (Ottawa area and Montreal area) and none have been resolved in the member's favour.


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## ballz (14 Jan 2020)

Have any been put up beyond the IA-level yet?


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## CountDC (20 Jan 2020)

as I recall, yes.


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## winds_13 (20 Jan 2020)

What is the geographic boundary of Esquimalt that you can reside over 50km outside the city and still be eligible for PLD?


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## dapaterson (20 Jan 2020)

winds_13 said:
			
		

> What is the geographic boundary of Esquimalt that you can reside over 50km outside the city and still be eligible for PLD?





			
				Occam said:
			
		

> It's only available on the DWAN.  A listing of the geographical boundaries for various cities is at http://cmp-cpm.forces.mil.ca/dgcb/dcba/travel/engraph/geographical_boundaries_e.asp?sidesection=2&sidecat=7
> 
> I'm guessing you're in Esquimalt.  The boundaries for Esquimalt are:
> 
> ...


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## ballz (21 Jan 2020)

CountDC said:
			
		

> as I recall, yes.



Couldn't find one on the grievance committee's website but I could be searching wrong. I'd be curious to see it.

What I notice here is that IRP benefits are outlined for people who are authorized a cost move, but I don't ever recall seeing anything which states when a cost move ought to be authorized / who authorizes / under what conditions / etc.

I do find it a bit egregious that they could conceivably move your office 50,60, 80 km away and not owe you a move.


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## Eye In The Sky (21 Jan 2020)

winds_13 said:
			
		

> What is the geographic boundary of Esquimalt that you can reside over 50km outside the city and still be eligible for PLD?



I'm over 70km road distance from my current unit and still within the geo area.  Circa 2014-15 IIRC, there was an amendment in the 'reasonable commuting distance' or whatever the term is from a unit in terms of recall response and it was expanded to something closer to 1hr and/or 100km.  I know one geo boundary that was expanded because of this in Oct 2015 (Halifax).  The geo area is also the PLD area.


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## Sub_Guy (22 Jan 2020)

Anonymous333 said:
			
		

> Long story short is that I have been posted to Esquimalt for the past two years and purchased a home in Duncan well within the geographical boundary and a long yet tolerable commute for me (Roughly an hour one way with morning traffic ) The problem is that I did not get posted out of the area only my position changed to another base in the city which almost doubles my commute time! Best case Ontario is that my 1.5 hour daily commute which I signed on for is now going to be well above three hours.



I was posted to Esquimalt from 99 to 2007. 

I lived in Duncan (loved it) from 2002 - 2007.  My morning commute was 40mins, but it was getting worse before I left for Comox.  I don't know where your new location is, but Pat Bay is only 31km from Esquimalt and if I'm not mistaken that is the furthest spot from Esquimalt.  Albert Head and Workpoint all less than 31km from the base.  

Prior to leaving I was working at Pat Bay and I'd commute with a fella who lived in Crofton.  We were entitled to commuting assistance, which wasn't much, but it was better than nothing.

The commute time you are talking about has to refer to time in traffic and not distance.  I don't think you will find anything to support a cost move.


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## Navy_Pete (22 Jan 2020)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> I was posted to Esquimalt from 99 to 2007.
> 
> I lived in Duncan (loved it) from 2002 - 2007.  My morning commute was 40mins, but it was getting worse before I left for Comox.  I don't know where your new location is, but Pat Bay is only 31km from Esquimalt and if I'm not mistaken that is the furthest spot from Esquimalt.  Albert Head and Workpoint all less than 31km from the base.
> 
> ...



This is happening in Ottawa right now with the move out to Carling Campus; people in my neighbourhood went from working downtown (with a 45 minute commute on public transit) to a two hour slog (each way) across the city. Think the total change in distance is something like 25 km to about 35 km. Some pretty happy people, and civvies are just transferring out to other departments if they can.  Because of the lack of parking, driving isn't really an option unless you win the lottery.  It's coincided with the new LRT falling apart as well, so generally a good time to try and get posted out of Ottawa and come back later if you don't want to do the commute.


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## CountDC (5 Feb 2020)

Navy-Pete - bicycle on the wonderful trail system would probably be quicker.


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## dapaterson (5 Feb 2020)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Navy-Pete - bicycle on the wonderful trail system would probably be quicker.



The trail leads to the south of the campus.  They're removing the stop signs on the road at the crossing, so you now have to beware of drivers careening around the south access road if you decide to risk driving /walking in along the path.


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## CountDC (7 May 2021)

Just got better on the PLD front for some people:

 DPPD 006.21 

NDHQ CMP OTTAWA/DPPD             

UNCLAS  DPPD 006.21  
SUBJ: PAYMENT OF PLD ON ENROLMENT TO CEASE EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY REF: CBI 205.45(3) POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL - POLICY 

1. A POLICY REVIEW FOR POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL (PLD) HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY ALL PAYMENT OF PLD ON ENROLMENT IS TO CEASE  

2. THE PLD POLICY IS TO RETURN TO ITS ORIGINAL INTENDED PURPOSE. PLD IS INTENDED TO EASE THE FINANCIAL BURDENS PLACED ON MILITARY MEMBERS AND THEIR FAMILIES WHEN POSTED TO NEW LOCATIONS WITH MEASURABLE DIFFERENCES IN THE COST OF LIVING AS PER REFERENCE. CERTAIN AREAS, NAMED POST LIVING DIFFERENTIAL AREAS (PLDA), WERE IDENTIFIED AS HAVING A HIGHER COST OF LIVING THAN THE NATIONAL AVERAGE. MEMBERS POSTED TO A PLACE OF DUTY THAT IS WITHIN A DETERMINED PLDA RECEIVE COMPENSATION TO OFFSET THESE NEW COSTS  

3. UNITS ARE TO DETERMINE WHICH OF THEIR MEMBERS ARE CURRENTLY RECEIVING PLD BASED ON THEIR ENROLMENT CIRCUMSTANCES. FOR MEMBERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY RECEIVING PLD BASED ON THEIR ENROLMENT LOCATION AND HAVE NOT BEEN POSTED TO THAT LOCATION, THEIR ENTITLEMENT IS TO CEASE EFFECTIVE 30 APRIL 2021. ALL FUTURE REQUESTS FOR PLD ON ENROLMENT ARE TO BE DENIED. ANY OUTSTANDING REQUESTS FOR PLD ON ENROLMENT ARE TO BE DENIED, EVEN IF THEY WERE INITIATED PRIOR TO THE RELEASE OF THIS AIG 

4. NO RECOVERY ACTION AGAINST MEMBERS WHO RECEIVED PLD ON ENROLMENT WILL BE TAKEN AT THIS TIME. HOWEVER, THIS ASPECT WILL BE THE OBJECT OF FURTHER REVIEW  

5. QUESTIONS MAY BE DIRECTED TO THE ADMINISTRATIVE RESPONSE CENTRE (ARC): (PLUS SIGN)CMP ARC - CRA CPM(AT SIGN) CMP DGMP(AT SIGN) OTTAWA-HULL CMPARC.CRACPM(AT SIGN)FORCES.GC.CA

Mbrs are being told that their PLD is now ceased IAW with this message.  I do see some issues and do not believe the message is well worded.   

Para 2 has the issue of "return to its original intended purpose"   intended has no bearing, it is what the policy actually says in black and white that matters.
 Para 3 has the issue of  "and have not been posted to that location"  as it is not really clear and will lead to confusion.  Reg F are all posted.  Do they mean the mbrs getting PLD based on residence location and not posting location?  Maybe they mean those that did not get a cost move? How about the person that joins, is posted restricted to St Jean then Borden and after a year of training in those locations is posted back to their home town?  They have been posted to that location so get the PLD?

Para 4 on recovery action will be a big issue if they try to do recovery as it will require review of policy in effect at the time.  Just because you change the policy to suit your intended goal does not mean you get to make it retro-active.    Current CBI 205.45 is effective 1 Sep 2017 so may have changes that do not apply to prior.    It also states:

205.45(4) (Entitlement – Regular Force) Subject to paragraphs (7) to (19), a member of the Regular Force whose principal residence is located within a PLDA is entitled to the PLD rate for that location established in the Table to this instruction for that area.

Here is what the perceived intent apparently is:

"If you are living in Halifax, enrol and after completing your training are posted to Halifax (your first "real" posting) you are not paid PLD as you have not incurred an increase in cost of living. " 

Not even arguing that point but the wording and method is not great.  Note that the msg does not even have a date time group on it making it seem a sloppy rush job.  The only place a date is reflected is with the digital signature which was 30 Apr, same date the PLD was to cease.   Mbrs are just finding out now that their pld stopped at the end of April.  

Let the redresses start on another screw up.


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## Halifax Tar (7 May 2021)

CountDC said:


> Just got better on the PLD front for some people:
> 
> DPPD 006.21
> 
> ...


That's the way I see that too.  But if you've been posted away and then back to Halifax again you should be getting PLD ?


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2021)

Example I can think of;  AES Ops who join via CFRC Hfx and reside in the Hfx PLDA on enrolment.  They will end up on the BTL and pre-positioned to a unit at 12 Wg until they are MOAT or OTU qualified (OFP).  They're first posting will be on reaching OFP;  if they are posted to 423 Sqn in 12 Wing, they will not be entitled to PLD.

If the same member enrolled from Kentville, and was posted to Shearwater...they'd be eligible for PLD.

Well...at least submitted grievances will be reviewed the MGERC IAW QR & O, Vol 1, Ch 7, Art 7.21(c).


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## kev994 (7 May 2021)

I think they were targeting people who left their stuff in their parents’ basement while on basic.


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## kev994 (7 May 2021)

I had a buddy on ROTP civi u in Vancouver getting more PLD than pay while living with his parents at his enrolement city.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 May 2021)

Then, in that case, they should amend the CBI;  change "occupy a principle residence" to "maintain" and define it so the criteria locks it down that the member must "own or lease/rent" the residence....


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## ballz (7 May 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> Then, in that case, they should amend the CBI;  change "occupy a principle residence" to "maintain" and define it so the criteria locks it down that the member must "own or lease/rent" the residence....



They just get their parents to do up a fake lease showing they pay rent... this ROTP scam has been going on forever. If you're ROTP civie U, you get to choose any university in Canada you want. They should just not give ROTP ppl at university PLD and it'll sort itself out real quick.


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## McG (7 May 2021)

CountDC said:


> UNITS ARE TO DETERMINE WHICH OF THEIR MEMBERS ARE CURRENTLY RECEIVING PLD BASED ON THEIR ENROLMENT CIRCUMSTANCES. FOR MEMBERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY RECEIVING PLD BASED ON THEIR ENROLMENT LOCATION AND HAVE NOT BEEN POSTED TO THAT LOCATION, THEIR ENTITLEMENT IS TO CEASE


I don't see what is ambiguous about this. If you are receiving PLD because of your enrollment circumstances, you should not be.
If you are currently receiving PLD based on having been enrolled in a particular location AND you HAVE NOT BEEN POSTED to that location, then you don't get PLD.
If you are currently receiving PLD based on having been enrolled in a particular location AND you HAVE BEEN POSTED to that location, then you keep getting PLD.
If you have never had a posting message, you have never been posted.


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## Eye In The Sky (8 May 2021)

_fake lease_  Then CHARGE THEM.  lol


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## SupersonicMax (8 May 2021)

Eye In The Sky said:


> _fake lease_  Then CHARGE THEM.  lol


How do you prove it is fake?  It could be a legitimate lease.  Son pays X to parents.  Parents give X to son as a gift each month. That would be called exploiting a loophole, which is unethical but not illegal.


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## PuckChaser (8 May 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> How do you prove it is fake?  It could be a legitimate lease.  Son pays X to parents.  Parents give X to son as a gift each month. That would be called exploiting a loophole, which is unethical but not illegal.


I would argue that it's not a loophole but it's actually fraud, but good luck proving it.


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## ballz (8 May 2021)

That's right, it'd be impossible to prove, but everyone has known it's going on.

PLD needs a fix, I would just tie it to the consumer price index, updated every 2 years. Nice and simple and at least based on something that makes sense.

And ROTP pers would not eligible (or people in other similar programs). It's already a gold-mine of a program, they'll even give you a full-cost move to where ever you choose as long as you've been accepted to the school. If you choose downtown Toronto because you really really really wanna go to U of T, that's fine, but you're not getting PLD. You're already getting a full-cost move, a generous salary for someone who does nothing 8 months of the year, free tuition, free books, free supplies... if you can find a better deal than that somewhere else, fill your boots.

I'm pretty confident it wouldn't effect recruiting... how many officer candidates come in asking about how much PLD they are gonna make? They don't even realize it until they're already enrolled FFS.


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## kev994 (8 May 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> How do you prove it is fake?  It could be a legitimate lease.  Son pays X to parents.  Parents give X to son as a gift each month. That would be called exploiting a loophole, which is unethical but not illegal.


Might be simpler to just write the lease for $1.


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## CountDC (12 May 2021)

well it has happened.  Have a JR that has been informed that he will not receive PLD anymore.  Quite a kick as they bought a house recently and had a baby.


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## CountDC (12 May 2021)

What has happened is mbr enrolled and was posted to St Jean for basic with no move.  Mbr then posted to Borden for trade training again with no move as they were going directly into R&Q until end of course.  At end of course mbr was posted back to the community they were living in prior to enrolment.   That was 3 postings, posting msg was received but as he was posted back his PLD was ceased.   Still waiting on the possible recovery once that review is done.


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