# CAF with 2% GDP



## ringo (5 Sep 2014)

What would CAF be like with a budget of 2% GDP?


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## Remius (5 Sep 2014)

More GOFOs, more bureaucracy, special projects like repainting  our vehicles to ww2 patterns and plenty of commemoration ceremonies.  Troop levels, ammo and training would remain the same though in order to pay for all of that.


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## Lightguns (5 Sep 2014)

Much like now except all the furniture at NDHQ and the fact that NDHQ would be basically every empty space between Bank St and the Canal.  There is a whole cohort of retired military contractors with a life style to maintain out there!


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## Old Sweat (5 Sep 2014)

CDS would be upgraded to Admiral of the Fleet / Field Marshal / Marshal of the RCAF and the rest of the GOFOs would advance to conform.


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## SeaKingTacco (5 Sep 2014)

The snowbirds would have a new aircraft and everyone in the RCAF would be issued a leather jacket.

Each MOC in the CF would have their own HQ.

Other than that, not much would be different.


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## Swingline1984 (5 Sep 2014)

NDHQ would look like this (only not so shabby):


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Sep 2014)

Reserve armour would have actual wheeled armour, reserve artillery would have real guns again and full battery of 6 with 2 CP's again. Support units would actually have working towtrucks and field kitchens.

 Naval reserve units could open up in the Arctic, Prince Rupert and likely a Northern East coast large town that does not have one. Regular Navy could have 2 support ships and 1 Mistral class or similar. 

Infantry can have a mortar platoon with 81 and 60mm's, heavy weapons platoons with .50cals, grenade launchers and a anti-armour platoon with Carl G, and atgm's 

Regular artillery can get one Self-propelled gun battery to work with the tanks and we could have a real AD battery armed with real weapons. Plus several functioning UAV troops. War stocks can be built up.

Air force can issue 2 flying jackets to each pilot, 5 star instead of 4 star hotels, self heating box lunches and 2 more F35's


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## blackberet17 (5 Sep 2014)

G-Wags don't count as "actual" wheeled armour?


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Sep 2014)

better than nothing but not exactly that useful. Better to give them to the MP's for convoy escort. A modern VBL would be best. Small, protected not as top heavy. In larger units have a light troop with open top G-wagons with a GPMG and armoured troop with the VBLish vehicle, 6 vehicles per troop. Get them to deploy with the Reserve arty units to learn the OP trade and provide security to the OP's as well. So your friendly arty unit is going to the range, send 2 cars to accompany the OP's. The OP can learn some recce skills and the Armoured can learn some Op skills. If they are near an airbase like Coldlake, they can even work with FOO's.


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## Tibbson (5 Sep 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> better than nothing but not exactly that useful. Better to give them to the MP's for convoy escort. A modern VBL would be best. Small, protected not as top heavy. In larger units have a light troop with open top G-wagons with a GPMG and armoured troop with the VBLish vehicle, 6 vehicles per troop. Get them to deploy with the Reserve arty units to learn the OP trade and provide security to the OP's as well. So your friendly arty unit is going to the range, send 2 cars to accompany the OP's. The OP can learn some recce skills and the Armoured can learn some Op skills. If they are near an airbase like Coldlake, they can even work with FOO's.



The MPs already had them and handed them back as unsuitable for the task.


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## dapaterson (5 Sep 2014)

To double defence spending would take at least 10 years to achieve if we want it to be meaningful.

Quick estimate:

Take Reg F Trained Strength to 80K (from 60K); paid strength to 95K (from 68K).  Those 20K (trained) would add 5K to the RCN - JSS, the two cheap Mistral carriers from France, and increasing the CSC fleet to 20 hulls would absorb 5K sailors quickly (including support); 4K to the RCAF - 2K for UAV sqns (4x 500), 1K for deployable support, 500 for two more Chinook Sqns in Edmonton and Gagetown; 500 for more Maritime Helicopters; 8K Army - 5K for a full CMBG in Gagetown (bring back the Black Watch!), 2K for Reserve support (heavy on Sup Techs and maintainers to keep equipment operating), 1K for Div troops - signals etc; 2K for a cyber capability (rather than the current ad hoc); 1K for CANSOF (I'd tell you why, but then I'd have to kill you).  (All those numbers include "purple" enablers, so the new CMBG, for example, would have to pay for the positions for the Fd Amb)

Take Res F strength and double it - probably more like a 20 year proposition for that.

Those two actions would consume about 20% of the increase.  Remaining increase would go to acquisition and O&M.

The Army (in my model) no longer has managed readiness.  All four CMBGs would be equipped and ready.  Similarly, ships would spend more days at sea, and YFR would increase.  Some of that readiness spending would translate into increased civilians to support maintenance.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2014)

500 pers for ea UAV sqn?


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## dapaterson (5 Sep 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 500 pers for ea UAV sqn?



Estimates may be on the high side - so maybe 400 each for five instead? 

Besides, stick a sqn in Goose Bay (for example) and you'll need lots of additional pers to keep a base running for the sqn.


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2014)

Copy.   I wonder what the hiking, snowshoeing, fishing and camping is like there.  Hmmmmmm......


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## dimsum (5 Sep 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Estimates may be on the high side - so maybe 400 each for five instead?
> 
> Besides, stick a sqn in Goose Bay (for example) and you'll need lots of additional pers to keep a base running for the sqn.



Shhhh....someone in the Good Idea Fairy club will think we aren't being sarcastic!   :

400 pers for a UAV sqn isn't ridiculous, depending on what capability you want.  If you're looking at UAVs with 24h+ endurance time, you'd need multiple crews of Pilots, Sensor Operators, IAs, etc. just for one plane, plus extra crews to allow for leave, career courses, training of new crews, postings, etc.


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## BadgerTrapper (5 Sep 2014)

ringo said:
			
		

> What would CAF be like with a budget of 2% GDP?



New Amb's, potentially a replacement for the MSVS or start modifying some LAV III's to fill the role. . . Oh how one can dare to dream 


(Don't misinterpret me as not liking the Bison, however if the budget was 2% then they could probably afford to start replacing some kit. )


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## OldSolduer (5 Sep 2014)

New rank structure and fedoras for all combat troops!!!


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Sep 2014)

Change from pips and crowns to 1990s type officer ranks.   Executive curl removed from navy officer ranks.  

As a taxpayer I would want to see where the money will be spent before agreeing to it.  We waste too much now of what we are given.   Example there should be NO money spent on stupid stuff like DEU changes and boots the troops hate and wont wear.  That is the start of IMO a very long list of wasted dollars.


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## Bird_Gunner45 (5 Sep 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Reserve armour would have actual wheeled armour, reserve artillery would have real guns again and full battery of 6 with 2 CP's again. Support units would actually have working towtrucks and field kitchens.
> 
> Naval reserve units could open up in the Arctic, Prince Rupert and likely a Northern East coast large town that does not have one. Regular Navy could have 2 support ships and 1 Mistral class or similar.
> 
> ...



If we are living in this dream world, we should have an independent air defence regiment at the Div leve (C-RAM, radar, SHORAD) and a MANPAD battery in each CMBG. We could then augment the GS regiment to have an actual CB radar, halo, MLRS, and a battery of SP howitzers for teh divisional "reinforcing" battery. 1 x AD Battery, in any sort of real world, wouldnt allow for any real rotation of personnel or capability.


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## Dissident (5 Sep 2014)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> The MPs already had them and handed them back as unsuitable for the task.


I don't remember being consulted about this, I would have taken them! Woukd be a sight better than training for convoy escorts using MilCOTS with a C9 out of the back window.

As far as the original question goes: probably not nearly as much from our wish list as we would think.


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## OldSolduer (5 Sep 2014)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> I don't remember being consulted about this, I would have taken them!
> .



We don't get "consulted" on quite a number of problems.


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## Dissident (5 Sep 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> We don't get "consulted" on quite a number of problems.



I am being facetious, of course. I'll paraphrase someone else: Non end user dictating end user requirements. Drives me up the fucking wall, but I refuse to give up and be silenced.


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## OldSolduer (5 Sep 2014)

NinerSix said:
			
		

> I am being facetious, of course. I'll paraphrase someone else: Non end user dictating end user requirements. Drives me up the ******* wall, but I refuse to give up and be silenced.



I figured that 

Like rucksacks...every time we get a new one, the bright ones equate that to "the troops can carry MORE kit now".


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## BadgerTrapper (5 Sep 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I figured that
> 
> Like rucksacks...every time we get a new one, the bright ones equate that to "the troops can carry MORE kit now".



Then at least they'd start acquiring and looking for kit to issue. I'd also like to propose a replacement of the beloved Coleman stoves and lanterns! *ducks to avoid the rocks and tomatoes*


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## PuckChaser (5 Sep 2014)

I figure with a 2% GDP boost, we'd actually be a first world Army and be able to provide $#%@#$ boots in the system for all our soldiers. Nope, new tunics for pips and crowns.


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## a_majoor (6 Sep 2014)

I'd want to leverage that as much as possible. Bulk buys of all ammunition natures to get economies of scale (imagine if we were ordering in sufficient quantities to get rifle bullets for $.50 each, or Excalibur rounds for $35,000 rather than $70,000 each). We would then actually have enough to shoot so soldiers can be qualified and trained. You could probably extend that idea to lots of other consumables and training as well.

Bring manning up at least to the point that units are actually manned rather than skeleton formations (including HM's ships and Air Force units, of course).

And agree that before we even get a single new dime we need to identify and eliminate lots of waste in the system, especially the bottlenecks that slow down decision making. If we did that, raising defense spending to 2% of GDP would actually look more like raising it to 2.5%.


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## Scoobie Newbie (6 Sep 2014)

I'd have to check but I think 5.56mm Ball clipped is around $0.67 each.


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## a_majoor (6 Sep 2014)

Been quite a while since I priced it out, but my impression is it is more than a dollar a round.

Even if your price is correct, saving even $.10/round over millions of rounds adds up.


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## Furniture (6 Sep 2014)

A CAF with twice the budget might eventually be able to have a fleet of ships and aircraft capable of patrolling our borders, maybe we could even have a combat capable Navy and Air Force. You know, able to sustain a few loses and still keep up the fight.

In reality we would have very nice chairs in our workspaces and likely several more pay raises, maybe a new scheme added on top of Spec Pay and PLD to help retention in very select trades.


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## OldSolduer (6 Sep 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> And agree that before we even get a single new dime we need to identify and eliminate lots of waste in the system, especially the bottlenecks that slow down decision making. If we did that, raising defense spending to 2% of GDP would actually look more like raising it to 2.5%.



I agree with this philosophy. It might....would be painful but worth it in then long run.

Having said all this, the PM has said NO.


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## Journeyman (6 Sep 2014)

Music lessons for troops busking to make ends meet get the posting they want.


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## Kat Stevens (6 Sep 2014)

Pith helmets and cross belts for the army, square rig for the navy, and long leather dusters and flying helmets for the fly guys.  Martini-Henry SARP project finally gets off the ground.


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## Edward Campbell (6 Sep 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Pith helmets and cross belts for the army, square rig for the navy, and long leather dusters and flying helmets for the fly guys.  Martini-Henry SARP project finally gets off the ground.




Quite right, Kat, we need to get back to real soldiering.






By the way, the fellow in the pith
helmet is Air Chief Marshal Sir Henry
Robert Moore Brooke-Popham, the
other fellow was one of the tiny handful
of truly brilliant generals of the 20th
century - a select group that does not
include Currie, Haig, Foch, Hindenburg,
Pershing, Patton, Montgomery, MacArthur
or even Brooke.


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## Lightguns (6 Sep 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Quite right, Kat, we need to get back to real soldiering.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sitting here in my misery of Base Duty officer and you leave me hanging, who is it?  I remember the pic but not the man!


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## Edward Campbell (6 Sep 2014)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Sitting here in my misery of Base Duty officer and you leave me hanging, who is it?  I remember the pic but not the man!



Does this help?


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## Lightguns (6 Sep 2014)

Thank you, now I remember the name and shall wiki him for a bit.


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## Edward Campbell (6 Sep 2014)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Thank you, now I remember the name and shall wiki him for a bit.



Most base libraries ought to have John Connell's two volume biography: _Wavell: Solider and Scholar_ and _Wavell: Supreme Commander_.


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## Colin Parkinson (8 Sep 2014)

Sheep Dog AT said:
			
		

> I'd have to check but I think 5.56mm Ball clipped is around $0.67 each.



5.56 retails at around .50cents a round for normal bulk ammo in 1,000 lots
http://www.reliablegun.com/en/federal-american-eagle-rifle-ammo-223-rem-55gr-fmjbt-1000rds-army-can-ar223


If the army can't beat that, then it's doing it wrong.


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## dapaterson (8 Sep 2014)

Colin P said:
			
		

> 5.56 retails at around .50cents a round for normal bulk ammo in 1,000 lots
> http://www.reliablegun.com/en/federal-american-eagle-rifle-ammo-223-rem-55gr-fmjbt-1000rds-army-can-ar223
> 
> 
> If the army can't beat that, then it's doing it wrong.



Keep in mind that the Army may be paying more to keep guaranteed sources of supply in operation via the Munitions Supply Program.  It may be easy enough to buy ammo now, but in the event of a major conflict, unless you've got your own factory (or got a factory committed to you) you may well be SOL.

Lowest cost is not always the best choice for military supplies if it means you can't get them when you really need them.


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## Humphrey Bogart (8 Sep 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that the Army may be paying more to keep guaranteed sources of supply in operation via the Munitions Supply Program.  It may be easy enough to buy ammo now, but in the event of a major conflict, unless you've got your own factory (or got a factory committed to you) you may well be SOL.
> 
> Lowest cost is not always the best choice for military supplies if it means you can't get them when you really need them.



Great point and this goes hand in hand with other stuff such as equipment procurement etc... industrial capacity is one of the major considerations when you invest in a new piece of equipment.


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## Colin Parkinson (8 Sep 2014)

I wonder how much those agreements are really worth as you are competing directly with the US government? A ample war stock of properly stored small arms ammunition can alleviate much of that issue for the short term, even more so when you buy when demand is dropping. Looking at some of the modern machinery for ammo plants displayed at SHOT means building a assembly plant for ammo is much cheaper than it used to be. One machine I looked at can QC cases using lasers at around 100 per second. The real choke point will be primer manufacture as the compounds are not the friendliest to work with. Mind you a million primers is about 1 40' container


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## MarkOttawa (8 Sep 2014)

_The Viceroy's Journal_ of his tenure before Dicke Mounbatten messed things up in India is well worth the read:
https://www.google.ca/search?num=100&client=firefox-a&hs=q9m&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=sb&q=wavell+%22viceroy%27s+journal%22&oq=wavell+%22viceroy%27s+journal%22&gs_l=serp.3..0i22i30l2.44065.47473.0.48926.2.2.0.0.0.0.192.363.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.53.serp..0.2.361.CQMHeOUM1nY

Mark Collins


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