# Re: Mortars



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:38:15 -0600*
Mike, Mike, Mike, you‘ve been in Meaford too long:
There is an old adage within "indirect fire circles" that any monkey can
"shoot".  To compare a MFC to a FOO is like comparing pioneers and
engineers, etc, they can‘t be compared.  I could take a private from St
Jean and in the manner of 30 mins to an hour, teach him the basics of
indirect fire theory up to and including hitting the target.  Picking
a grid isn‘t rocket science...which is why the Artillery allows Infantry
to use mortars....
Mortars are an excellent weapon, for what it was designed for, that
being to provide a limited indirect fire resource the Bn Comd can draw
upon.  Used for smoke missions and limited preparatory fire is fine,
but, if you are going into a battle based on a mortar fire plan, you
might as well start writing letters to the families of your soldiers....
The disadvantages of Mortars are many, however, too name a few off the
top of my head....Mortars don‘t have the logistical tail ammunition to
maintain a high rate of fire.  Secondly, it is not flexible enough
indirect wpn to fireplan.  Third, it is inaccurate for Gods sake how
long does it take to adjust a target! and has a long time of flight. 
Fourth, mortar baseplates are extremely vulnerable to Counter Battery
fire.  Fifth a mortar pl doesn‘t have the arty comd and con framework to
enable it to easily tap into resources of the CS Regts, GS Regt, and GSR
Regts...as well as Naval Gun Fire, Attack Avn, and Fast Air.
Unfortunately, most officers in the CF don‘t realize the benefit a FOO
or BC is to them. Indeed they have your attitude of a MFC does the same
thing a FOO does...definitely not the case at all.  
The Artillery brings one thing to the battlefield and that is MASSIVE
AMOUNTS OF FLEXIBLE FIREPOWER.  No other element does this with the
degree of flexibility the Artillery can. No one doubts the shock action
of modern MBTs.  The defensive capability of a dug in Inf Bn.  No one
should doubt the Firepower of the Artillery.
As an aside, only the Russians realized the benefit of Artillery
Firepower based on their experiences during WWII.  The US, after the
Persian Gulf War, realized their mistake in not having enough artillery
and reorganized many Regular and National Guard Units into the
Artillery.
I don‘t know if you were ever on RVs/BC Fireplanning Crses/Divisional
shoots in Canada or the US, but if you have ever seen a Division of Guns
or more fire on one concentrated target...THATS FIREPOWER!...and in
the space of 30seconds you can move that FIREPOWER to different targets
that are kilometers apart.  Just like achieveing air supremecy, if you
have Artillery supremancy on the battlefield, you control what moves and
what dies!
Up the Guns!
Gunner sends.....
Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> 
> Hear, hear,
> 
> As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills that
> can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
> Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time and
> again.
> 
> PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
> 2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
> If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
> 
> Mike
> 
> At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
> >
> >What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
> >>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
> >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >>To: 
> >>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
> >>
> >>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it lands.... even
> >>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
> >>completely
> >>different story....
> >>Scott
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Wyn van der Schee 
> >>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> >>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
> >>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
> >>
> >>
> >> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
> >> >
> >> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one cavalry
> >> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these days.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence, but a
> >> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it should
> >> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black magic, I
> >> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the indirect
> >>role
> >> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to remember.
> >>We
> >> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so to learn
> >> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they were
> >>all
> >> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
> >> >Wyn van der Schee
> >> >Calgary
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >> >message body.
> >> >
> >>
> >>--------------------------------------------------------
> >>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >>message body.
> >
> >______________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
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> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
> >
> >
> 
> Michael O‘Leary
> 
> Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> 
> Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
> improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
> leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
> end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:28:44 -0400*
Ah Gunner, I‘ve argued up and down that road too many times before. Some of
your points I would concede, others I might argue to last call in a real,
old-style, St. Andrews Mess happy hour like wrestling with a pig, eh?.
With limited training time and ammo available to the platoons now, there is
a great variance in the overall degree of skill and experience among the
platoons. In my own platoon many years ago, the average Sr NCO had 15-20
years in Mortars in Germany and Canada, they were damn good and they
proved themselves time and again shooting alongside various Regimental and
Arty School FOOs. So, let‘s retire gracefully from this particular
engagement and save the remainder of the list from a never-ending debate. 
Pro Patria and Ubique, here‘s to Saint Barbara from us all.
Mike
At 06:38 PM 4/12/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Mike, Mike, Mike, you‘ve been in Meaford too long:
>
>There is an old adage within "indirect fire circles" that any monkey can
>"shoot".  To compare a MFC to a FOO is like comparing pioneers and
>engineers, etc, they can‘t be compared.  I could take a private from St
>Jean and in the manner of 30 mins to an hour, teach him the basics of
>indirect fire theory up to and including hitting the target.  Picking
>a grid isn‘t rocket science...which is why the Artillery allows Infantry
>to use mortars....
>
>Mortars are an excellent weapon, for what it was designed for, that
>being to provide a limited indirect fire resource the Bn Comd can draw
>upon.  Used for smoke missions and limited preparatory fire is fine,
>but, if you are going into a battle based on a mortar fire plan, you
>might as well start writing letters to the families of your soldiers....
>
>The disadvantages of Mortars are many, however, too name a few off the
>top of my head....Mortars don‘t have the logistical tail ammunition to
>maintain a high rate of fire.  Secondly, it is not flexible enough
>indirect wpn to fireplan.  Third, it is inaccurate for Gods sake how
>long does it take to adjust a target! and has a long time of flight. 
>Fourth, mortar baseplates are extremely vulnerable to Counter Battery
>fire.  Fifth a mortar pl doesn‘t have the arty comd and con framework to
>enable it to easily tap into resources of the CS Regts, GS Regt, and GSR
>Regts...as well as Naval Gun Fire, Attack Avn, and Fast Air.
>
>Unfortunately, most officers in the CF don‘t realize the benefit a FOO
>or BC is to them. Indeed they have your attitude of a MFC does the same
>thing a FOO does...definitely not the case at all.  
>
>The Artillery brings one thing to the battlefield and that is MASSIVE
>AMOUNTS OF FLEXIBLE FIREPOWER.  No other element does this with the
>degree of flexibility the Artillery can. No one doubts the shock action
>of modern MBTs.  The defensive capability of a dug in Inf Bn.  No one
>should doubt the Firepower of the Artillery.
>
>As an aside, only the Russians realized the benefit of Artillery
>Firepower based on their experiences during WWII.  The US, after the
>Persian Gulf War, realized their mistake in not having enough artillery
>and reorganized many Regular and National Guard Units into the
>Artillery.
>
>I don‘t know if you were ever on RVs/BC Fireplanning Crses/Divisional
>shoots in Canada or the US, but if you have ever seen a Division of Guns
>or more fire on one concentrated target...THATS FIREPOWER!...and in
>the space of 30seconds you can move that FIREPOWER to different targets
>that are kilometers apart.  Just like achieveing air supremecy, if you
>have Artillery supremancy on the battlefield, you control what moves and
>what dies!
>
>Up the Guns!
>
>Gunner sends.....
>Michael O‘Leary wrote:
>> 
>> Hear, hear,
>> 
>> As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills that
>> can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
>> Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time and
>> again.
>> 
>> PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
>> 2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
>> If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
>> >
>> >What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
>> >>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
>> >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>> >>To: 
>> >>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
>> >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
>> >>
>> >>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it lands....
even
>> >>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
>> >>completely
>> >>different story....
>> >>Scott
>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>From: Wyn van der Schee 
>> >>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
>> >>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
>> >>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
>> >> >
>> >> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one cavalry
>> >> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these days.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence, but a
>> >> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it
should
>> >> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black magic, I
>> >> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the indirect
>> >>role
>> >> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to remember.
>> >>We
>> >> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so to
learn
>> >> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they were
>> >>all
>> >> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
>> >> >Wyn van der Schee
>> >> >Calgary
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >--------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >> >message body.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>--------------------------------------------------------
>> >>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >>message body.
>> >
>> >______________________________________________________
>> >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
>> >
>> >--------------------------------------------------------
>> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >message body.
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> Michael O‘Leary
>> 
>> Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
>> 
>> Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
>> improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
>> leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
>> end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> message body.
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
>
>
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John A. Poh" <johnpoh@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Wed, 12 Apr 2000 21:25:09 -0500*
Gunner:
As an old, old IG and Counter Bombardment type, I couldn‘t have expressed the
difference any better. Well said.
Good Shooting
Ubique
John
Gunner wrote:
> Mike, Mike, Mike, you‘ve been in Meaford too long:
>
> There is an old adage within "indirect fire circles" that any monkey can
> "shoot".  To compare a MFC to a FOO is like comparing pioneers and
> engineers, etc, they can‘t be compared.  I could take a private from St
> Jean and in the manner of 30 mins to an hour, teach him the basics of
> indirect fire theory up to and including hitting the target.  Picking
> a grid isn‘t rocket science...which is why the Artillery allows Infantry
> to use mortars....
>
> Mortars are an excellent weapon, for what it was designed for, that
> being to provide a limited indirect fire resource the Bn Comd can draw
> upon.  Used for smoke missions and limited preparatory fire is fine,
> but, if you are going into a battle based on a mortar fire plan, you
> might as well start writing letters to the families of your soldiers....
>
> The disadvantages of Mortars are many, however, too name a few off the
> top of my head....Mortars don‘t have the logistical tail ammunition to
> maintain a high rate of fire.  Secondly, it is not flexible enough
> indirect wpn to fireplan.  Third, it is inaccurate for Gods sake how
> long does it take to adjust a target! and has a long time of flight.
> Fourth, mortar baseplates are extremely vulnerable to Counter Battery
> fire.  Fifth a mortar pl doesn‘t have the arty comd and con framework to
> enable it to easily tap into resources of the CS Regts, GS Regt, and GSR
> Regts...as well as Naval Gun Fire, Attack Avn, and Fast Air.
>
> Unfortunately, most officers in the CF don‘t realize the benefit a FOO
> or BC is to them. Indeed they have your attitude of a MFC does the same
> thing a FOO does...definitely not the case at all.
>
> The Artillery brings one thing to the battlefield and that is MASSIVE
> AMOUNTS OF FLEXIBLE FIREPOWER.  No other element does this with the
> degree of flexibility the Artillery can. No one doubts the shock action
> of modern MBTs.  The defensive capability of a dug in Inf Bn.  No one
> should doubt the Firepower of the Artillery.
>
> As an aside, only the Russians realized the benefit of Artillery
> Firepower based on their experiences during WWII.  The US, after the
> Persian Gulf War, realized their mistake in not having enough artillery
> and reorganized many Regular and National Guard Units into the
> Artillery.
>
> I don‘t know if you were ever on RVs/BC Fireplanning Crses/Divisional
> shoots in Canada or the US, but if you have ever seen a Division of Guns
> or more fire on one concentrated target...THATS FIREPOWER!...and in
> the space of 30seconds you can move that FIREPOWER to different targets
> that are kilometers apart.  Just like achieveing air supremecy, if you
> have Artillery supremancy on the battlefield, you control what moves and
> what dies!
>
> Up the Guns!
>
> Gunner sends.....
> Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> >
> > Hear, hear,
> >
> > As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills that
> > can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
> > Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time and
> > again.
> >
> > PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
> > 2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
> > If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
> > >
> > >What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
> > >>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
> > >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >>To: 
> > >>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> > >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
> > >>
> > >>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it lands.... even
> > >>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
> > >>completely
> > >>different story....
> > >>Scott
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: Wyn van der Schee 
> > >>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > >>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
> > >>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
> > >> >
> > >> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one cavalry
> > >> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these days.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence, but a
> > >> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it should
> > >> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black magic, I
> > >> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the indirect
> > >>role
> > >> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to remember.
> > >>We
> > >> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so to learn
> > >> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they were
> > >>all
> > >> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
> > >> >Wyn van der Schee
> > >> >Calgary
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >> >message body.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>--------------------------------------------------------
> > >>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >>message body.
> > >
> > >______________________________________________________
> > >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Michael O‘Leary
> >
> > Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
> >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> >
> > Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
> > improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
> > leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
> > end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Wed, 12 Apr 2000 20:53:15 -0600*
True we could argue until last call.
One of my first dealings with the Mortars was in the early to mid 80s. 
3 RCHA was Regimental fireplanning and C/S 0 asked I51 PPCLI or RCR out
of Wpg...not sure to send target records for a target they had just
recorded...after much hesitation on their part, they had to ask what it
meant.  The Tech WO G Bty I believe and I had a good chuckle.  
Anyway, last call....suffice it to say, mortars are good for what they
were designed for...no more, no less.
Rounds Complete.
Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> 
> Ah Gunner, I‘ve argued up and down that road too many times before. Some of
> your points I would concede, others I might argue to last call in a real,
> old-style, St. Andrews Mess happy hour like wrestling with a pig, eh?.
> With limited training time and ammo available to the platoons now, there is
> a great variance in the overall degree of skill and experience among the
> platoons. In my own platoon many years ago, the average Sr NCO had 15-20
> years in Mortars in Germany and Canada, they were damn good and they
> proved themselves time and again shooting alongside various Regimental and
> Arty School FOOs. So, let‘s retire gracefully from this particular
> engagement and save the remainder of the list from a never-ending debate.
> 
> Pro Patria and Ubique, here‘s to Saint Barbara from us all.
> 
> Mike
> 
> At 06:38 PM 4/12/00 -0600, you wrote:
> >Mike, Mike, Mike, you‘ve been in Meaford too long:
> >
> >There is an old adage within "indirect fire circles" that any monkey can
> >"shoot".  To compare a MFC to a FOO is like comparing pioneers and
> >engineers, etc, they can‘t be compared.  I could take a private from St
> >Jean and in the manner of 30 mins to an hour, teach him the basics of
> >indirect fire theory up to and including hitting the target.  Picking
> >a grid isn‘t rocket science...which is why the Artillery allows Infantry
> >to use mortars....
> >
> >Mortars are an excellent weapon, for what it was designed for, that
> >being to provide a limited indirect fire resource the Bn Comd can draw
> >upon.  Used for smoke missions and limited preparatory fire is fine,
> >but, if you are going into a battle based on a mortar fire plan, you
> >might as well start writing letters to the families of your soldiers....
> >
> >The disadvantages of Mortars are many, however, too name a few off the
> >top of my head....Mortars don‘t have the logistical tail ammunition to
> >maintain a high rate of fire.  Secondly, it is not flexible enough
> >indirect wpn to fireplan.  Third, it is inaccurate for Gods sake how
> >long does it take to adjust a target! and has a long time of flight.
> >Fourth, mortar baseplates are extremely vulnerable to Counter Battery
> >fire.  Fifth a mortar pl doesn‘t have the arty comd and con framework to
> >enable it to easily tap into resources of the CS Regts, GS Regt, and GSR
> >Regts...as well as Naval Gun Fire, Attack Avn, and Fast Air.
> >
> >Unfortunately, most officers in the CF don‘t realize the benefit a FOO
> >or BC is to them. Indeed they have your attitude of a MFC does the same
> >thing a FOO does...definitely not the case at all.
> >
> >The Artillery brings one thing to the battlefield and that is MASSIVE
> >AMOUNTS OF FLEXIBLE FIREPOWER.  No other element does this with the
> >degree of flexibility the Artillery can. No one doubts the shock action
> >of modern MBTs.  The defensive capability of a dug in Inf Bn.  No one
> >should doubt the Firepower of the Artillery.
> >
> >As an aside, only the Russians realized the benefit of Artillery
> >Firepower based on their experiences during WWII.  The US, after the
> >Persian Gulf War, realized their mistake in not having enough artillery
> >and reorganized many Regular and National Guard Units into the
> >Artillery.
> >
> >I don‘t know if you were ever on RVs/BC Fireplanning Crses/Divisional
> >shoots in Canada or the US, but if you have ever seen a Division of Guns
> >or more fire on one concentrated target...THATS FIREPOWER!...and in
> >the space of 30seconds you can move that FIREPOWER to different targets
> >that are kilometers apart.  Just like achieveing air supremecy, if you
> >have Artillery supremancy on the battlefield, you control what moves and
> >what dies!
> >
> >Up the Guns!
> >
> >Gunner sends.....
> >Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> >>
> >> Hear, hear,
> >>
> >> As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills that
> >> can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
> >> Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time and
> >> again.
> >>
> >> PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
> >> 2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
> >> If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
> >> >
> >> >What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
> >> >>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
> >> >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >> >>To: 
> >> >>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> >> >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
> >> >>
> >> >>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it lands....
> even
> >> >>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
> >> >>completely
> >> >>different story....
> >> >>Scott
> >> >>-----Original Message-----
> >> >>From: Wyn van der Schee 
> >> >>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> >> >>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
> >> >>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one cavalry
> >> >> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these days.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence, but a
> >> >> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it
> should
> >> >> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black magic, I
> >> >> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the indirect
> >> >>role
> >> >> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to remember.
> >> >>We
> >> >> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so to
> learn
> >> >> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they were
> >> >>all
> >> >> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
> >> >> >Wyn van der Schee
> >> >> >Calgary
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >> >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >> >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >> >> >message body.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>--------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >> >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >> >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >> >>message body.
> >> >
> >> >______________________________________________________
> >> >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> >> >
> >> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >> >message body.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Michael O‘Leary
> >>
> >> Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
> >>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> >>
> >> Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
> >> improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
> >> leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
> >> end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
> >> --------------------------------------------------------
> >> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >> message body.
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
> >
> >
> 
> Michael O‘Leary
> 
> Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> 
> Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
> improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
> leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
> end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Carl DINSDALE <joscol@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:35:04 -0500*
Gunner,
I won‘t debate your obvious expertise in the area of indirect fire, but I have vast
respect for mortars and soldiers who know how to use them effectively. The Serbs
and the Bosnians were expert with them and could be on in two or three and switch
targets in the blink of an eye. Spent several days watching them work as they
fought around us in Kiseljak in ‘93. Of course the big guns have more bang, but
there is much to be said for indirect fire you can carry on your back and deploy in
seconds. I was always glad the guns were there for us, I just always prayed they
had the same map as I did!
Pro Patria
Carl
Gunner wrote:
> Mike, Mike, Mike, you‘ve been in Meaford too long:
>
> There is an old adage within "indirect fire circles" that any monkey can
> "shoot".  To compare a MFC to a FOO is like comparing pioneers and
> engineers, etc, they can‘t be compared.  I could take a private from St
> Jean and in the manner of 30 mins to an hour, teach him the basics of
> indirect fire theory up to and including hitting the target.  Picking
> a grid isn‘t rocket science...which is why the Artillery allows Infantry
> to use mortars....
>
> Mortars are an excellent weapon, for what it was designed for, that
> being to provide a limited indirect fire resource the Bn Comd can draw
> upon.  Used for smoke missions and limited preparatory fire is fine,
> but, if you are going into a battle based on a mortar fire plan, you
> might as well start writing letters to the families of your soldiers....
>
> The disadvantages of Mortars are many, however, too name a few off the
> top of my head....Mortars don‘t have the logistical tail ammunition to
> maintain a high rate of fire.  Secondly, it is not flexible enough
> indirect wpn to fireplan.  Third, it is inaccurate for Gods sake how
> long does it take to adjust a target! and has a long time of flight.
> Fourth, mortar baseplates are extremely vulnerable to Counter Battery
> fire.  Fifth a mortar pl doesn‘t have the arty comd and con framework to
> enable it to easily tap into resources of the CS Regts, GS Regt, and GSR
> Regts...as well as Naval Gun Fire, Attack Avn, and Fast Air.
>
> Unfortunately, most officers in the CF don‘t realize the benefit a FOO
> or BC is to them. Indeed they have your attitude of a MFC does the same
> thing a FOO does...definitely not the case at all.
>
> The Artillery brings one thing to the battlefield and that is MASSIVE
> AMOUNTS OF FLEXIBLE FIREPOWER.  No other element does this with the
> degree of flexibility the Artillery can. No one doubts the shock action
> of modern MBTs.  The defensive capability of a dug in Inf Bn.  No one
> should doubt the Firepower of the Artillery.
>
> As an aside, only the Russians realized the benefit of Artillery
> Firepower based on their experiences during WWII.  The US, after the
> Persian Gulf War, realized their mistake in not having enough artillery
> and reorganized many Regular and National Guard Units into the
> Artillery.
>
> I don‘t know if you were ever on RVs/BC Fireplanning Crses/Divisional
> shoots in Canada or the US, but if you have ever seen a Division of Guns
> or more fire on one concentrated target...THATS FIREPOWER!...and in
> the space of 30seconds you can move that FIREPOWER to different targets
> that are kilometers apart.  Just like achieveing air supremecy, if you
> have Artillery supremancy on the battlefield, you control what moves and
> what dies!
>
> Up the Guns!
>
> Gunner sends.....
> Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> >
> > Hear, hear,
> >
> > As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills that
> > can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
> > Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time and
> > again.
> >
> > PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
> > 2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
> > If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
> > >
> > >What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
> > >>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
> > >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >>To: 
> > >>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> > >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
> > >>
> > >>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it lands.... even
> > >>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
> > >>completely
> > >>different story....
> > >>Scott
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: Wyn van der Schee 
> > >>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > >>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
> > >>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
> > >> >
> > >> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one cavalry
> > >> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these days.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence, but a
> > >> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it should
> > >> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black magic, I
> > >> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the indirect
> > >>role
> > >> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to remember.
> > >>We
> > >> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so to learn
> > >> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they were
> > >>all
> > >> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
> > >> >Wyn van der Schee
> > >> >Calgary
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >> >message body.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>--------------------------------------------------------
> > >>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >>message body.
> > >
> > >______________________________________________________
> > >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Michael O‘Leary
> >
> > Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
> >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> >
> > Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
> > improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
> > leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
> > end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"John Pullman" <jpullman@bserv.com>* on *Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:44:22 -0700*
Good one Sir!
Being a MFC and FOO tech trained, I don‘t wanna go on who is better, but I
appreciate the confidence.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael O‘Leary 
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
Date: April 12, 2000 5:14 PM
Subject: Mortars was Re: Dropshorts and RMC
>Hear, hear,
>
>As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills that
>can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
>Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time and
>again.
>
>PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
>2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
>If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
>
>Mike
>
>At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
>>
>>What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
>>>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
>>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>>To: 
>>>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
>>>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
>>>
>>>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it lands....
even
>>>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
>>>completely
>>>different story....
>>>Scott
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Wyn van der Schee 
>>>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
>>>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
>>>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
>>>
>>>
>>> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
>>> >
>>> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one cavalry
>>> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these days.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence, but a
>>> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it
should
>>> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black magic, I
>>> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the indirect
>>>role
>>> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to remember.
>>>We
>>> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so to
learn
>>> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they were
>>>all
>>> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
>>> >Wyn van der Schee
>>> >Calgary
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >--------------------------------------------------------
>>> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>> >message body.
>>> >
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>>message body.
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>message body.
>>
>>
>
>
>Michael O‘Leary
>
>Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
>
>Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
>improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
>leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
>end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Thu, 13 Apr 2000 07:22:32 -0600*
Thanks Carl, 
I too have a healthy respect for mortars as well as I said in my second
paragraph, they are an excellent weapon, for what they were designed for
and recognizing their limitations.  
Indeed the flexibility of a smaller mortar ie the 81 mm as a tool
within guerrilla armies worldwide is well known.  The harassing quality
of one or two men with a mortar and 10 bombs cannot be understated. 
While the Hezbollah sp? in Souther Lebanon usually use rockets, the
principle is the same, that being, to quickly set up a launcher, fire
your missles at Israel, and by the time the Israeli Artillery conducts a
CB, the hezbollah and launcher are gone.
I guess it comes down to the follow "It really doesn‘t matter if it‘s an
indirect mortar bomb, artillery shell, CBUs, MRLS Bomblets, MBT....if it
hits you, your still dead!" 
We‘re all part of a team and must work together to maximize the combat
synergy! 
Gunner sends....
Carl DINSDALE wrote:
> 
> Gunner,
> 
> I won‘t debate your obvious expertise in the area of indirect fire, but I have vast
> respect for mortars and soldiers who know how to use them effectively. The Serbs
> and the Bosnians were expert with them and could be on in two or three and switch
> targets in the blink of an eye. Spent several days watching them work as they
> fought around us in Kiseljak in ‘93. Of course the big guns have more bang, but
> there is much to be said for indirect fire you can carry on your back and deploy in
> seconds. I was always glad the guns were there for us, I just always prayed they
> had the same map as I did!
> 
> Pro Patria
> 
> Carl
> 
> Gunner wrote:
> 
> > Mike, Mike, Mike, you‘ve been in Meaford too long:
> >
> > There is an old adage within "indirect fire circles" that any monkey can
> > "shoot".  To compare a MFC to a FOO is like comparing pioneers and
> > engineers, etc, they can‘t be compared.  I could take a private from St
> > Jean and in the manner of 30 mins to an hour, teach him the basics of
> > indirect fire theory up to and including hitting the target.  Picking
> > a grid isn‘t rocket science...which is why the Artillery allows Infantry
> > to use mortars....
> >
> > Mortars are an excellent weapon, for what it was designed for, that
> > being to provide a limited indirect fire resource the Bn Comd can draw
> > upon.  Used for smoke missions and limited preparatory fire is fine,
> > but, if you are going into a battle based on a mortar fire plan, you
> > might as well start writing letters to the families of your soldiers....
> >
> > The disadvantages of Mortars are many, however, too name a few off the
> > top of my head....Mortars don‘t have the logistical tail ammunition to
> > maintain a high rate of fire.  Secondly, it is not flexible enough
> > indirect wpn to fireplan.  Third, it is inaccurate for Gods sake how
> > long does it take to adjust a target! and has a long time of flight.
> > Fourth, mortar baseplates are extremely vulnerable to Counter Battery
> > fire.  Fifth a mortar pl doesn‘t have the arty comd and con framework to
> > enable it to easily tap into resources of the CS Regts, GS Regt, and GSR
> > Regts...as well as Naval Gun Fire, Attack Avn, and Fast Air.
> >
> > Unfortunately, most officers in the CF don‘t realize the benefit a FOO
> > or BC is to them. Indeed they have your attitude of a MFC does the same
> > thing a FOO does...definitely not the case at all.
> >
> > The Artillery brings one thing to the battlefield and that is MASSIVE
> > AMOUNTS OF FLEXIBLE FIREPOWER.  No other element does this with the
> > degree of flexibility the Artillery can. No one doubts the shock action
> > of modern MBTs.  The defensive capability of a dug in Inf Bn.  No one
> > should doubt the Firepower of the Artillery.
> >
> > As an aside, only the Russians realized the benefit of Artillery
> > Firepower based on their experiences during WWII.  The US, after the
> > Persian Gulf War, realized their mistake in not having enough artillery
> > and reorganized many Regular and National Guard Units into the
> > Artillery.
> >
> > I don‘t know if you were ever on RVs/BC Fireplanning Crses/Divisional
> > shoots in Canada or the US, but if you have ever seen a Division of Guns
> > or more fire on one concentrated target...THATS FIREPOWER!...and in
> > the space of 30seconds you can move that FIREPOWER to different targets
> > that are kilometers apart.  Just like achieveing air supremecy, if you
> > have Artillery supremancy on the battlefield, you control what moves and
> > what dies!
> >
> > Up the Guns!
> >
> > Gunner sends.....
> > Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> > >
> > > Hear, hear,
> > >
> > > As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills that
> > > can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
> > > Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time and
> > > again.
> > >
> > > PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
> > > 2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
> > > If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
> > > >>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
> > > >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > >>To: 
> > > >>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> > > >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
> > > >>
> > > >>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it lands.... even
> > > >>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
> > > >>completely
> > > >>different story....
> > > >>Scott
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: Wyn van der Schee 
> > > >>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > > >>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
> > > >>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
> > > >> >
> > > >> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one cavalry
> > > >> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these days.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence, but a
> > > >> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it should
> > > >> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black magic, I
> > > >> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the indirect
> > > >>role
> > > >> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to remember.
> > > >>We
> > > >> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so to learn
> > > >> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they were
> > > >>all
> > > >> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
> > > >> >Wyn van der Schee
> > > >> >Calgary
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > >> >message body.
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > >>message body.
> > > >
> > > >______________________________________________________
> > > >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > >
> > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > >message body.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Michael O‘Leary
> > >
> > > Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
> > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> > >
> > > Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
> > > improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
> > > leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
> > > end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@HOTMAIL.COM>* on *Thu, 13 Apr 2000 17:12:03 EDT*
True, but as a Recce crewman, I can call fire just as well.
>From: Gunner 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: Mortars was Re: Dropshorts and RMC
>Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:38:15 -0600
>
>Mike, Mike, Mike, you‘ve been in Meaford too long:
>
>There is an old adage within "indirect fire circles" that any monkey can
>"shoot".  To compare a MFC to a FOO is like comparing pioneers and
>engineers, etc, they can‘t be compared.  I could take a private from St
>Jean and in the manner of 30 mins to an hour, teach him the basics of
>indirect fire theory up to and including hitting the target.  Picking
>a grid isn‘t rocket science...which is why the Artillery allows Infantry
>to use mortars....
>
>Mortars are an excellent weapon, for what it was designed for, that
>being to provide a limited indirect fire resource the Bn Comd can draw
>upon.  Used for smoke missions and limited preparatory fire is fine,
>but, if you are going into a battle based on a mortar fire plan, you
>might as well start writing letters to the families of your soldiers....
>
>The disadvantages of Mortars are many, however, too name a few off the
>top of my head....Mortars don‘t have the logistical tail ammunition to
>maintain a high rate of fire.  Secondly, it is not flexible enough
>indirect wpn to fireplan.  Third, it is inaccurate for Gods sake how
>long does it take to adjust a target! and has a long time of flight.
>Fourth, mortar baseplates are extremely vulnerable to Counter Battery
>fire.  Fifth a mortar pl doesn‘t have the arty comd and con framework to
>enable it to easily tap into resources of the CS Regts, GS Regt, and GSR
>Regts...as well as Naval Gun Fire, Attack Avn, and Fast Air.
>
>Unfortunately, most officers in the CF don‘t realize the benefit a FOO
>or BC is to them. Indeed they have your attitude of a MFC does the same
>thing a FOO does...definitely not the case at all.
>
>The Artillery brings one thing to the battlefield and that is MASSIVE
>AMOUNTS OF FLEXIBLE FIREPOWER.  No other element does this with the
>degree of flexibility the Artillery can. No one doubts the shock action
>of modern MBTs.  The defensive capability of a dug in Inf Bn.  No one
>should doubt the Firepower of the Artillery.
>
>As an aside, only the Russians realized the benefit of Artillery
>Firepower based on their experiences during WWII.  The US, after the
>Persian Gulf War, realized their mistake in not having enough artillery
>and reorganized many Regular and National Guard Units into the
>Artillery.
>
>I don‘t know if you were ever on RVs/BC Fireplanning Crses/Divisional
>shoots in Canada or the US, but if you have ever seen a Division of Guns
>or more fire on one concentrated target...THATS FIREPOWER!...and in
>the space of 30seconds you can move that FIREPOWER to different targets
>that are kilometers apart.  Just like achieveing air supremecy, if you
>have Artillery supremancy on the battlefield, you control what moves and
>what dies!
>
>Up the Guns!
>
>Gunner sends.....
>Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> >
> > Hear, hear,
> >
> > As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills 
>that
> > can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
> > Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time and
> > again.
> >
> > PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
> > 2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
> > If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
> > >
> > >What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
> > >>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
> > >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >>To: 
> > >>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> > >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
> > >>
> > >>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it lands.... 
>even
> > >>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
> > >>completely
> > >>different story....
> > >>Scott
> > >>-----Original Message-----
> > >>From: Wyn van der Schee 
> > >>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > >>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
> > >>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
> > >> >
> > >> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one 
>cavalry
> > >> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these 
>days.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence, but 
>a
> > >> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it 
>should
> > >> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black 
>magic, I
> > >> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the 
>indirect
> > >>role
> > >> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to 
>remember.
> > >>We
> > >> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so to 
>learn
> > >> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they 
>were
> > >>all
> > >> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
> > >> >Wyn van der Schee
> > >> >Calgary
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >> >message body.
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>--------------------------------------------------------
> > >>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >>message body.
> > >
> > >______________________________________________________
> > >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > >
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Michael O‘Leary
> >
> > Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
> >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> >
> > Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
> > improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An ineffective
> > leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
> > end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
--------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Thu, 13 Apr 2000 15:23:04 -0600*
true - but probably not as efficiently as a trained FOO - in addition you
probably don‘t have as much tactical training on the role of indirect fire
within the Combat team/ Battle Group context - likewise, you don‘t have
access to the same resources resident within the arty chain - including the
RCPO who can. upon receiving a target description, allocate fewer or greater
resources keeping in mind other considerations.
In short the FOO is not an island out there and brings to the table
knowledge and resources not available to the Mortarmen or Recce crew - the
FOO operates from a wider perspective and considers factors not normally
part of other arms estimate processes.   
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Chrid Loveridge [SMTP:cloveridge@hotmail.com]
> Sent:Thursday, April 13, 2000 3:12 PM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:Re: Mortars was Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> 
> True, but as a Recce crewman, I can call fire just as well.
> 
> >From: Gunner 
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >Subject: Re: Mortars was Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:38:15 -0600
> >
> >Mike, Mike, Mike, you‘ve been in Meaford too long:
> >
> >There is an old adage within "indirect fire circles" that any monkey can
> >"shoot".  To compare a MFC to a FOO is like comparing pioneers and
> >engineers, etc, they can‘t be compared.  I could take a private from St
> >Jean and in the manner of 30 mins to an hour, teach him the basics of
> >indirect fire theory up to and including hitting the target.  Picking
> >a grid isn‘t rocket science...which is why the Artillery allows Infantry
> >to use mortars....
> >
> >Mortars are an excellent weapon, for what it was designed for, that
> >being to provide a limited indirect fire resource the Bn Comd can draw
> >upon.  Used for smoke missions and limited preparatory fire is fine,
> >but, if you are going into a battle based on a mortar fire plan, you
> >might as well start writing letters to the families of your soldiers....
> >
> >The disadvantages of Mortars are many, however, too name a few off the
> >top of my head....Mortars don‘t have the logistical tail ammunition to
> >maintain a high rate of fire.  Secondly, it is not flexible enough
> >indirect wpn to fireplan.  Third, it is inaccurate for Gods sake how
> >long does it take to adjust a target! and has a long time of flight.
> >Fourth, mortar baseplates are extremely vulnerable to Counter Battery
> >fire.  Fifth a mortar pl doesn‘t have the arty comd and con framework to
> >enable it to easily tap into resources of the CS Regts, GS Regt, and GSR
> >Regts...as well as Naval Gun Fire, Attack Avn, and Fast Air.
> >
> >Unfortunately, most officers in the CF don‘t realize the benefit a FOO
> >or BC is to them. Indeed they have your attitude of a MFC does the same
> >thing a FOO does...definitely not the case at all.
> >
> >The Artillery brings one thing to the battlefield and that is MASSIVE
> >AMOUNTS OF FLEXIBLE FIREPOWER.  No other element does this with the
> >degree of flexibility the Artillery can. No one doubts the shock action
> >of modern MBTs.  The defensive capability of a dug in Inf Bn.  No one
> >should doubt the Firepower of the Artillery.
> >
> >As an aside, only the Russians realized the benefit of Artillery
> >Firepower based on their experiences during WWII.  The US, after the
> >Persian Gulf War, realized their mistake in not having enough artillery
> >and reorganized many Regular and National Guard Units into the
> >Artillery.
> >
> >I don‘t know if you were ever on RVs/BC Fireplanning Crses/Divisional
> >shoots in Canada or the US, but if you have ever seen a Division of Guns
> >or more fire on one concentrated target...THATS FIREPOWER!...and in
> >the space of 30seconds you can move that FIREPOWER to different targets
> >that are kilometers apart.  Just like achieveing air supremecy, if you
> >have Artillery supremancy on the battlefield, you control what moves and
> >what dies!
> >
> >Up the Guns!
> >
> >Gunner sends.....
> >Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> > >
> > > Hear, hear,
> > >
> > > As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills 
> >that
> > > can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
> > > Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time
> and
> > > again.
> > >
> > > PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
> > > 2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
> > > If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
> > > >>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
> > > >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > >>To: 
> > > >>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> > > >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
> > > >>
> > > >>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it
> lands.... 
> >even
> > > >>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
> > > >>completely
> > > >>different story....
> > > >>Scott
> > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > >>From: Wyn van der Schee 
> > > >>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > > >>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
> > > >>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
> > > >> >
> > > >> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one 
> >cavalry
> > > >> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these 
> >days.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence,
> but 
> >a
> > > >> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it
> 
> >should
> > > >> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black 
> >magic, I
> > > >> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the 
> >indirect
> > > >>role
> > > >> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to 
> >remember.
> > > >>We
> > > >> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so
> to 
> >learn
> > > >> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they
> 
> >were
> > > >>all
> > > >> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
> > > >> >Wyn van der Schee
> > > >> >Calgary
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > >> >message body.
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >>--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > >>message body.
> > > >
> > > >______________________________________________________
> > > >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > >
> > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > >message body.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Michael O‘Leary
> > >
> > > Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
> > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> > >
> > > Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
> > > improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An
> ineffective
> > > leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
> > > end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > message body.
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Thu, 13 Apr 2000 16:32:32 -0600*
Well said Derrick.
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
> 
> true - but probably not as efficiently as a trained FOO - in addition you
> probably don‘t have as much tactical training on the role of indirect fire
> within the Combat team/ Battle Group context - likewise, you don‘t have
> access to the same resources resident within the arty chain - including the
> RCPO who can. upon receiving a target description, allocate fewer or greater
> resources keeping in mind other considerations.
> 
> In short the FOO is not an island out there and brings to the table
> knowledge and resources not available to the Mortarmen or Recce crew - the
> FOO operates from a wider perspective and considers factors not normally
> part of other arms estimate processes.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chrid Loveridge [SMTP:cloveridge@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 3:12 PM
> > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subject:      Re: Mortars was Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> >
> > True, but as a Recce crewman, I can call fire just as well.
> >
> > >From: Gunner 
> > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > >Subject: Re: Mortars was Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> > >Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 18:38:15 -0600
> > >
> > >Mike, Mike, Mike, you‘ve been in Meaford too long:
> > >
> > >There is an old adage within "indirect fire circles" that any monkey can
> > >"shoot".  To compare a MFC to a FOO is like comparing pioneers and
> > >engineers, etc, they can‘t be compared.  I could take a private from St
> > >Jean and in the manner of 30 mins to an hour, teach him the basics of
> > >indirect fire theory up to and including hitting the target.  Picking
> > >a grid isn‘t rocket science...which is why the Artillery allows Infantry
> > >to use mortars....
> > >
> > >Mortars are an excellent weapon, for what it was designed for, that
> > >being to provide a limited indirect fire resource the Bn Comd can draw
> > >upon.  Used for smoke missions and limited preparatory fire is fine,
> > >but, if you are going into a battle based on a mortar fire plan, you
> > >might as well start writing letters to the families of your soldiers....
> > >
> > >The disadvantages of Mortars are many, however, too name a few off the
> > >top of my head....Mortars don‘t have the logistical tail ammunition to
> > >maintain a high rate of fire.  Secondly, it is not flexible enough
> > >indirect wpn to fireplan.  Third, it is inaccurate for Gods sake how
> > >long does it take to adjust a target! and has a long time of flight.
> > >Fourth, mortar baseplates are extremely vulnerable to Counter Battery
> > >fire.  Fifth a mortar pl doesn‘t have the arty comd and con framework to
> > >enable it to easily tap into resources of the CS Regts, GS Regt, and GSR
> > >Regts...as well as Naval Gun Fire, Attack Avn, and Fast Air.
> > >
> > >Unfortunately, most officers in the CF don‘t realize the benefit a FOO
> > >or BC is to them. Indeed they have your attitude of a MFC does the same
> > >thing a FOO does...definitely not the case at all.
> > >
> > >The Artillery brings one thing to the battlefield and that is MASSIVE
> > >AMOUNTS OF FLEXIBLE FIREPOWER.  No other element does this with the
> > >degree of flexibility the Artillery can. No one doubts the shock action
> > >of modern MBTs.  The defensive capability of a dug in Inf Bn.  No one
> > >should doubt the Firepower of the Artillery.
> > >
> > >As an aside, only the Russians realized the benefit of Artillery
> > >Firepower based on their experiences during WWII.  The US, after the
> > >Persian Gulf War, realized their mistake in not having enough artillery
> > >and reorganized many Regular and National Guard Units into the
> > >Artillery.
> > >
> > >I don‘t know if you were ever on RVs/BC Fireplanning Crses/Divisional
> > >shoots in Canada or the US, but if you have ever seen a Division of Guns
> > >or more fire on one concentrated target...THATS FIREPOWER!...and in
> > >the space of 30seconds you can move that FIREPOWER to different targets
> > >that are kilometers apart.  Just like achieveing air supremecy, if you
> > >have Artillery supremancy on the battlefield, you control what moves and
> > >what dies!
> > >
> > >Up the Guns!
> > >
> > >Gunner sends.....
> > >Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hear, hear,
> > > >
> > > > As an "old" mortarman, I can certainly attest to the levels of skills
> > >that
> > > > can be acheieved in infantry indirect fire. I would have put my Fire
> > > > Controllers up against any FOO any day. They proved themselves time
> > and
> > > > again.
> > > >
> > > > PLFus mortars - 1979-1982
> > > > 2RCR Mortars - 1984-1986
> > > > If Sch Adv Mor Cell - 1988-1990
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > At 10:45 PM 4/11/00 EDT, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >What about a mortar pl?  Food for thought.
> > > > >>From: "Scott Lloyd" 
> > > > >>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > >>To: 
> > > > >>Subject: Re: Dropshorts and RMC
> > > > >>Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:55:23 -0300
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Anyone can point a tanks barrel in the air and see where it
> > lands....
> > >even
> > > > >>the infantry can do that with 50 cals...but to make it count is a
> > > > >>completely
> > > > >>different story....
> > > > >>Scott
> > > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > > >>From: Wyn van der Schee 
> > > > >>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
> > > > >>Date: April 11, 2000 1:24 AM
> > > > >>Subject: Dropshorts and RMC
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >Ian Edwards wrote on Mon, 10 Apr 2000 20:47:48
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >>No, just the pbi. The taste is all in my mouth. I expected one
> > >cavalry
> > > > >> >>buff on this net to respond but he has much on his plate these
> > >days.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >I‘m not going to get into this pissing contest about precedence,
> > but
> > >a
> > > > >> >check of CFAOs should settle the argument. Perhaps whoever does it
> >
> > >should
> > > > >> >share the infoprmation with the rest of us. As to gunner black
> > >magic, I
> > > > >> >recall learning to fire a squadron of Centurion tanks in the
> > >indirect
> > > > >>role
> > > > >> >at Meaford on a warm autumn day more years ago that I care to
> > >remember.
> > > > >>We
> > > > >> >didn‘t do AA or SSM stuff it would have taken another day or so
> > to
> > >learn
> > > > >> >that. The instructor was an IG RCAC. Didn‘t see any gunners - they
> >
> > >were
> > > > >>all
> > > > >> >nine miles back - but there lots of pbi who liked what we did.
> > > > >> >Wyn van der Schee
> > > > >> >Calgary
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > >> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > >> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > >> >message body.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >>--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > >>message body.
> > > > >
> > > > >______________________________________________________
> > > > >Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> > > > >
> > > > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > >message body.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Michael O‘Leary
> > > >
> > > > Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
> > > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> > > >
> > > > Change is not to be feared. Simultaneously, change is not necessarily
> > > > improvement. An effective leader improves through change. An
> > ineffective
> > > > leader seeks improvement through change. The first is sure of his
> > > > end-state, the latter never is. - MMO
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > > > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >--------------------------------------------------------
> > >NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > >message body.
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian  McGregor" <imcgrego@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 23 Mar 2001 23:37:14 -0500*
The US uses the 120 mm.  The LAV III they signed GM to build have a 120 mm
mortar carrier variant.
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Gow" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: Re: 60 mm trench
> The 60‘s still in service, Ian...
>
> The 4.2 is long gone, the heavy is the 81mm, "Warsaw Pact" types may
> continue the use of the 120 mm...not sure about that
>
> John
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ian Edwards" 
> > > To: 
> > > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 1:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Re: 60 mm trench
> > >
> > >
> > > > Yes, interesting/worthy topic. I read recently but can‘t recall
> > details
> > > > that infantry 4.2 inch mortars were employed as integral part of the
> > large
> > > > arty barrages used by First Canadian Army during the closing battles
> of
> > > WW2
> > > > in Germany/Holland.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: 
> > > > To: 
> > > > Cc: 
> > > > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 9:46 AM
> > > > Subject: RE: Re: 60 mm trench
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Finally, a topic worth following - infantry mortars. As long
> > > > > as we stay away from superfluous comparisons between mortarmen
> > > > > and artillerymen, it is worth exploring what the Army is doing
> > > > > right and wrong with mortars. I‘d be happy to jump on this
> > > > > one once I get home and clean up ten weeks of dust.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > > travelling correspondent now at an internet cafe in London
Ontario
> > > > > - back in ‘Slackers‘ by the end of the month
> > > > >
> > > > >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Original Message ---
> > > > > "Joan O. Arc"  Wrote on
> > > > > Fri, 23 Mar 2001 05:55:02 -0000
> > > > >  ------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Mason. Everything I wanted to know about mortars but was
> > > > > afraid to
> > > > > ask. Am *not* being sarcastic - the depths of my ignorance are
> > > > > shocking as
> > > > > you perhaps have figured out by now!.
> > > > >
> > > > > They sound kinda cool - like great big spitball machines, or
> > > > > something.
> > > > > Please - Hold the derisive laughter - and posts - to a minimum,
> > > > > if you
> > > > > can!.
> > > > >
> > > > > Glad to know there‘s a Private or two on the list BTW. Since
> > > > > no one ever
> > > > > mentions them, I was starting to think they were mythical
beasts...
> > > > >
> > > > > - Joan
> > > > >
> > > > > ----Original Message Follows----
> > > > > From: "Mason" 
> > > > > Reply-To: army-list@CdnArmy.ca
> > > > > To: 
> > > > > Subject: Re: 60 mm trench
> > > > > Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 01:14:18 -0500
> > > > >
> > > > > The 60mm he is referring to has to do with the bore of the motar,
> > > > > I know how
> > > > > you could get confused though... he didn‘t mean that the
dimensions
> > > > > of the
> > > > > trench were 60 mm.  I thought the wording could be a little
> misleading
> > > > > as
> > > > > well.
> > > > >
> > > > > The 60 mm mortar is a weapon used in the infantry to hurl
explosive
> > > > > projectiles a moderate distance ahead of the the body of infantry.
> > > > >  It‘s
> > > > > basically a tube 60 mm wide with a firing mechanism at the
> > > > > bottom, which
> > > > > when a mortar round is dropped in fires a charge that sends the
> > > > > projectile
> > > > > out and hopefully onto the enemy.  The round takes a high
> trajectory
> > > > > the
> > > > > weapon is normally fired pointed at an angle somewhere between
> > > > > 45 and 80 ish
> > > > > degrees.  That‘s all I really know about the mortar... some
> > > > > of it could be
> > > > > wrong but it gives you the basic idea in case you wanted to
know...
> > > > > I‘d ask
> > > > > one of the more experienced soldiers on the list if you want
> > > > > to know more.
> > > > >
> > > > > Apparently one can dig a trench to accomodate the mortar and
> > > > > the firer, but
> > > > > I don‘t know anything about that... **** , I‘m only a Private!
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope that helped a little Joan!
> > > > > Fraser
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > message body.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> _________________________________________________________________________
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> > > > >
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