# Relevance and Usefullness of Police Foundations?



## Thompson_JM

I started to think as I was responding to a comment on the firefighters thread about the vast difference between the College Programs, Fire, Paramedic, and Police. 

to my understanding both the Fire and EMS courses require alot more discipline and fitness and encompass a much greater level of hands-on Direct training. by that i mean, what you learn in school you will use directly in your job. whereas I found that the Police Foundations Course focused on alot of theoretical information, or on things you will simply re-learn, or on things that are outside your arcs as a Uniformed Police Constable (ie: Forensics.)

So I guess my real question goes out to those who have been there and now wear the T-Shirt.

How usefull was the Course compared to the training you recieved at your respective academy (Depot, OPC, CPC, etc...)

and i guess this one is kinda loaded... Other then being used for resume padding is Police Foundations a Better course to take over say a different college level course? 

Your Opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Also, If you have/are taking the program, how do you feel about it? Relevance, level of training recieved, quality of instructors, etc...

Thanks!

 - Josh


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## Bruce Monkhouse

I can give you [and please tell your friends] one course NOT to take....do not, I repeat, do not waste your time taking the 2 year Corrections course. I don't know how the instructors on those courses can look at themselves in the mirror in the morning for stealing some poor kids money.


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## zipperhead_cop

My experiences with college were pretty good.  It was called Law and Security Foundations at the time but it was a good overview of law enforcement.  Per Se I could have learned everything that I needed to at OPC, but it sure made OPC a breeze.  As well, it afforded me the opportunity to get involved in some law enforcement specific volunteer work ie) fund raising for Crime Stoppers, being a "bad guy" in uniform officer training scenarios (nothing says dedication like getting your ass kicked at your own request for a day).  
Also, a big factor is who will be teaching you.  My instructors included an ex-Ident officer, three Detective Sergeants and a city counsellor.  Since the college class is small and interactive, they actually get to know you and will remember your name.  That is a big bonus once you get past your interview.  Our department sends out a list of hopefuls at the very end of the application process to all officers and asks if anyone has had any contact, good or bad, with the person. *ding* Easy good reference.
No doubt there is some filler crap that you wont need, but at St. Clair College here in Windsor the program was great.  I have been told that Fanshaw in London is good, and Seneca up in King City around the GTA is one of the first and best ones.  
Conversely, the recent hires around these parts that are university educated tend to be book smart and street dumb (kind of a theme on this site too, actually ;D).  I would have to say, at least in Windsor, college is an advantage over university.  
There is a saying "if you want an education, go to university.  If you want a job, go to college".


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## The_Falcon

Humber has a good program, Centennial needs work.  From the recruiters perspective, post-secondary education of any kind is just a tick in the box.  That said many agencies that employ Special Constables (like the TTC, most universities, Toronto Housing)  require you to have a police foundations diploma as a minimum requirement.  Something to keep in mind.


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## Sappo

See my reply in the firefighters thread for more insight... 

But this is what I want to see, some discussion to help me decide if they want to keep my $1300 for this semester or give it back 



I can agree with alot said so far, namely from the course itself, they TALK alot about 'being police officers' but never teach you anything near it, except the criminal code. Mostly it is 'who is going into corrections, who is going into security'. Mind you my campus (Georgian College) has some great teachers, ex OPP, ex RCMP, ex Local Police etc etc. But I just cant get over the fact that they teach such mind-numbing theory that they could spend their time much better teaching more needed subjects... the OPC can teach us what the rest.

I know of... at least 2 people who I work with currently, doing security. I wont tell you where, but suffice to say it is not the most glamorous security job and it is probably the one that people dispise the most  Anyways, at least 2 of my co-workers have completed PFP or Law&Security, and they are both still security guards... the one person I know of has failed their ATS testing at least 3 times so far.. and the other fellow simply got tired of it and lazy after taking the 2-3 years for college to finish.

I am kind of leaning now towards dropping this program where it stands now, and moving on towards armored car services, or even just applying directly for a force (or the OPP cadet program).

I am honesty I have alot of volunteer work under my belt, I am working security currently, and 031R... I dont really think that a PFP diploma is going to help me THAT much, and I would be better spend using the time to prepare myself and get more experience.

Thoughts comments?


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## zipperhead_cop

Sappo said:
			
		

> I can agree with alot said so far, namely from the course itself, they TALK alot about 'being police officers' but never teach you anything near it, except the criminal code. Mostly it is 'who is going into corrections, who is going into security'. Mind you my campus (Georgian College) has some great teachers, ex OPP, ex RCMP, ex Local Police etc etc. But I just cant get over the fact that they teach such mind-numbing theory that they could spend their time much better teaching more needed subjects... the OPC can teach us what the rest.



What are you under the impression that you should be being taught?  The idea is that you have a good theoretical base so you can ultimately go out and apply the law.  Don't expect to see vehicle pursuits and tactical hostage rescue being taught in a community college.


			
				Sappo said:
			
		

> I know of... at least 2 people who I work with currently, doing security. I wont tell you where, but suffice to say it is not the most glamorous security job and it is probably the one that people despise the most  Anyways, at least 2 of my co-workers have completed PFP or Law&Security, and they are both still security guards... the one person I know of has failed their ATS testing at least 3 times so far.. and the other fellow simply got tired of it and lazy after taking the 2-3 years for college to finish.



Okay, and their lack of career progression is the programs fault....?  Failing testing and "tired and lazy" are not two marketable qualities in police candidates.  Liberal MP's, but not police.



			
				Sappo said:
			
		

> I am kind of leaning now towards dropping this program where it stands now, and moving on towards armored car services, or even just applying directly for a force (or the OPP cadet program).


Sure.  Hey, if you aren't busy this weekend, why don't you win a Nobel prize?  Just fer fun.  Getting hired is quite a bit more difficult than you think.  If you can pull it off, then just get hired with no education.  ATS will be thrilled to take your money.



			
				Sappo said:
			
		

> I am honesty I have alot of volunteer work under my belt, I am working security currently, and 031R... I dont really think that a PFP diploma is going to help me THAT much, and I would be better spend using the time to prepare myself and get more experience.



Failing to complete something you chose to start never looks good on a resume.  If you start a two year course, finish it.  In two years.  If you are that unhappy with the course, switch to something else and transfer the credits.  Just leaving it hanging will not be helpful for you.


			
				Sappo said:
			
		

> Thoughts comments?



Yer Welcome ;D


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## GO!!!

As I understand it, the PF course was a requirement by one of the higher levels of government to justify paying police officers more than entry level labour wages. (which is a good idea)

It was a hard sell to explain why a police officer should make more than the other uniformed services (corrections/paramedics/firefighters) when their training was often of a shorter duration, even though they have far greater responsibilities.

I would also point out that these colleges are often not looking out for the best interests of the students, like Monkhouse said, they often teach useless classes under the premise that they will land you a good job later, or will somehow help your applications. These are businesses after all! (2 year office administration course anyone?) I know five RCMP officers, they said that aside from the character and security clearance, life experience was paramount, a University degree was excellent, and PF was last, and somewhat redundant, given that you learn everything you need to know at depot.

In all fairness, they did say that taking a semester of PF might be a good idea so that you would know if you liked it or not, but that it was far from the "key" to get you a job as a cop.


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## Sappo

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> What are you under the impression that you should be being taught?  The idea is that you have a good theoretical base so you can ultimately go out and apply the law.  Don't expect to see vehicle pursuits and tactical hostage rescue being taught in a community college.



Granted... but they should be leaning more towards police.. instead of security work and corrections (which seems to be the focus) provide co-op terms with police forces, the chance to do volunteer work WITH police instead of just dances and fundraisers, have daily or bi-daily fitness classes instead of the 2 a week we get now. And I also feel there should entrance requirements for the course... much like the Fire Fighters courses. Way too many people have I seen who are morbidly overweight doing PFP, take the time to get fit BEFORE wasting your money on the course.



> Okay, and their lack of career progression is the programs fault....?  Failing testing and "tired and lazy" are not two marketable qualities in police candidates.  Liberal MP's, but not police.



Not saying it is the programs fault, but alot of people get discourged easily... if they brought more interactivity into the course people might get more energized about contiuing. Basically people are getting the impression that if you take PFP, you can graduate and sit back afterwards while waiting for the call from the local police sgt. doing recruiting saying you're hired.



> Sure.  Hey, if you aren't busy this weekend, why don't you win a Nobel prize?  Just fer fun.  Getting hired is quite a bit more difficult than you think.  If you can pull it off, then just get hired with no education.  ATS will be thrilled to take your money.



Oh come on... there is no need to belittle me and present it as a near impossible task to get hired without taking a " community college" course as you said earlier. I have spoken to many a police officer, retired and active who see PFP as a great inital step if you are fresh out of high-school... since they will not be getting hired for another 4-5 years regardless. And I know again from speaking to people, that there are certain police services who will look at a candidate WITHOUT PFP over someone with PFP, simply because they want a person with live experience and not a fancy looking resume. 



> Failing to complete something you chose to start never looks good on a resume.  If you start a two year course, finish it.  In two years.  If you are that unhappy with the course, switch to something else and transfer the credits.  Just leaving it hanging will not be helpful for you.



This is true and I do agree on that part... starting something and not finishing it will look bad, I am looking into changing to a different course that will offer more of what I am looking for (I noticed a firearms instructor course). However there is NO good reason for spending large sums of money on something you do NOT want to do. If that is the case I would like your life savings in mostly $50's and some $20's 


> Yer Welcome ;D



At least you put a smilie, no sense to turn this into an argument... the starter of the thread wanted constructive criticism on the usefullness of PFP... and that is my .2 

So more comments to think about from me... I just get the feeling that, and this might be my campus in particular... but there is so much more they could offer the students to really boost them ahead for the job. Things like the restricted and non-restricted firearms license... which has been offered to the students, through an outside source. Why doesnt the school just offer this every year to all the students? They all end up taking it anyways... seems kind of pointless to have to say 'go talk to this guy for that training'.  Also on that thought... I noticed that my campsus' law and security course offers a co-op placement... mind you its more money, but its there none-the-less. Why on earth would the law and security course (which would appear to be tailored more towards corrections and security) offer a co-op with police, and the POLICE FOUNDATIONS course (figure it out) not do the same... it just baffles my mind really. There is such a wealth of knowledge from a co-op placement that students are missing out on.

Oh well, let me know what else you think and hey, criticism is good. Considering I am heading in on monday to discuss my options with the co-ordinator.


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## Sappo

Oh and also for cpl. thompson's first question... the instructors I have had are all top notch... they enhance the course.. but if they are just teaching shit content than they cant help it.

I have had 4 ex police officers, 1 university grad with years and years in psychology and other fields, 1 or 2 possibly current police officers... our fitness teacher has taught numerous swat/tactical teams and is highly regarded in her field. 

So suffice to say our teachers are a cut above.

Let me leave it at that


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## Thompson_JM

im with Sappo on his last comment. Our instructors at humber were, for the most part a good cross section in qualified persons, with several retired and still serving police officers, as well as a couple of other related jobs, ie social worker, parole officer, etc.. my complaint has always been more with the content being taught, and the lack of any kind of co-op program. Zipperhead does make a valid point, obviously there will be certain things that simply cannot be taught to a PFP class due to legal reasons, or simply for common sense. though it would have been nice to not just hear about arrest procedures but maybe see an example of it. though, if each service has different protocal then obviously that wouldnt work....  I also had/have a major problem with the lack of PT on the course... it should be an every day class.... if you have a problem with exercise, then policing is not a career you should get into... I remember talking to a former member of the Toronto ETF who is now with Int. and he told me in the ETF's Gym there is a big poster up showing a gym in a prison with several very large criminal looking men on it with the slogan "For every day you dont work out, They do."   I have yet to graduate, due to financial problems (ran out of money) but at the same time I am still in the process of trying to get  hired. I wouldnt say no to going back to school, but if the police asked me if they thought I needed the program to be a better Cop, I dont think I would say yes. It gave me a great insight into the world of policing but I feel that with the experiance I have now, combined with the Training I would recive at the Academy, I would be qualified to do the job. and do it well. however, if that doesnt work out then, hey, save up some coin and go back to finish what i started once I pay off some of my debt.

regards
 - josh


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## zipperhead_cop

I guess I should count myself as lucky for the course I took.  Your complaints of non relevance and lack of physical fitness training were not a problem at St Clair College.  It is unfortunate that the course is not more interesting there.
Ultimately, life experience will be the deciding factor.  Education is good, but you should keep up your volunteer work.  Don't just do stuff that is fun, either, such as coaching hockey etc.  That is great if you do, but so do the other 5000 applicants.  Try to get stuff that makes your qualifications stand out.  Look into working in a continuing care or palliative ward at a hospital.  Serving mush food to dying people is a very humbling experience.  
Second language is good, too.  Everybody has some French, but most colleges have a decent sign language course available, and you will come across a lot more deaf people than Francophones in your career (unless you are in Quebec) ;D
The Nobel comment was just pulling your ya-ya's.  I failed to put a smiley icon with it so:  
Self motivation will be key as you apply to places.  Don't get discouraged.  Decide that you will be hired and you will not settle for anything less.  It's just up to whatever force who gets to have you first.
Good luck.


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## The_Falcon

Sappo, in regards to your comments about what community colleges should offer as part of the curriculum (daily PT, more dynamic class)  you have to realize that in order for a program to be subsidized by the province they have to follow a set standard curriculum that varies very little from college to college.  Also some colleges may not have the facilities to offer the kind of classes you enivision.  If you are really interested in taking in taking highly Police oriented program save your money and go to that private college that has the ads on tv (thier site is www.policefoundations.org).  Since they are a private institution they offer a few things community colleges can't or won't (firearms training, DT).


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## Baloo

To anyone who is seriously considering a career in policing, law, security, customs, etc., I am going to plug the University of Guelph-Humber, and their Justice Studies program. Its a four year course, where student will earn a Bachelor of Applied Science (Justice Studies), along with a Diploma in either Police Foundations (what I am taking) or Law and Security. Even though it is only my second semester at this school, I have nothing but the highest kudos for the staff and professors at this institution. Most of my profs that deal directly with justice, law, policing courses all have substantial experience (with either police, corrections, lawyer, etc) and are very immersed in their fields. The classes are small, with most being no bigger than 50 - 60 people (for a university...that is quite rare), and you can get on a name-to-name basis with your prof. 

I've had my little spiel. Carry on...


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## zipperhead_cop

But wouldnt that mean you would have to spend time in Guelph?  No career is worth that
 :dontpanic:


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## Baloo

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> But wouldnt that mean you would have to spend time in Guelph?  No career is worth that
> :dontpanic:



Sir, you have dropped the gauntlet, and I call you out on the field of honour.  

But actually, the campus is on Humber North, so its in Etobicoke. Which might be worse than being in Guelph.


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## zipperhead_cop

I agree.  Guelph is better.  I actually had one brilliant night in Tundra Lower 2 at U of G back in the fall of 1988.  Ahh, lovely farm girls.  How ample are thee?


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## Baloo

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> I agree.  Guelph is better.  I actually had one brilliant night in Tundra Lower 2 at U of G back in the fall of 1988.  Ahh, lovely farm girls.  How ample are thee?



Ever been to the Stampede Ranch? I don't know if you like country, but...


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## Sappo

Hatchett Man you bastard... why are you springing this private college one me NOW 

I forgive you... but seriously... look at those students! Those students want to learn... want to become police officers... uniformity. I LIKEY.

Anyone looking for a roomate in mississauga? 

Although I take it from the 'we will discuss the fee when you speak with a counsellor' that the fee would make most people run for cover?

Any thoughts on that?

I know the first private college I went to for computer network engineering... cost me a BUTTLOAD, and I am still paying that one off too.

Although the 10 month as opposed to 2 year is REALLY eye-catching.

OOh, and firearms training.. dear lord.

*salivates*


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## zipperhead_cop

Baloo said:
			
		

> Ever been to the Stampede Ranch? I don't know if you like country, but...



Yup, I like both kinds of music...but, yes, we hijack...

Sappo--don't worry too much about the firearms stuff.  Fun to be sure, but you don't want to come off over eager.  Try to seem like the "firm-yet-community-conscious" officer that just cares so damn much about every damn thing.  Once you are on, you get a free gun and (at least around here) unlimited ammo.  You can go join an IPSC club and shoot yer brains out.  Ok, not literally.


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## Thompson_JM

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> ...(at least around here) unlimited ammo...



Thats Because youre on the Detroit Border... Detroit.... the only city I drove through in a military vehicle, with weapon and still felt i was underequipped......

still couldnt get over how there was litteraly a liquor store or fried chicken stand every block and a half......


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## Sappo

Now im being told over-eager is a bad thing... ? I can understand what you're saying about not wanting to look like a gun nut... but my understanding is bring all the skills you can to the table. Which I intend to do


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## Bruce Monkhouse

MOD HIJACK....Gryphs Sports Bar this Friday, 2200 hours, 1 beer[ cause then I play at 2230]...always lots after ....
Look for a big old guy wearing a black army.ca golf shirt.......


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## Sappo

While on this particular topic too.... does anyone have any working information of armoured car services? As far as job training.. pay.. getting your foot in the door for a law enforcement job?

The company I work for right now, Group 4 Falck, which is now Group 4 Securicor, I am looking into transferring to the Securicor side for armoured car work.... I know the pay is better than what I am making now (its not hard to beat my pay). 

Anyone work FOR them? Worked for them?

Lets see what info you guys have


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## zipperhead_cop

Sappo said:
			
		

> While on this particular topic too.... does anyone have any working information of armoured car services? As far as job training.. pay.. getting your foot in the door for a law enforcement job?
> 
> The company I work for right now, Group 4 Falck, which is now Group 4 Securicor, I am looking into transferring to the Securicor side for armoured car work.... I know the pay is better than what I am making now (its not hard to beat my pay).
> 
> Anyone work FOR them? Worked for them?
> 
> Lets see what info you guys have



All I know is that getting shot for someone else's money is a bad idea.  I used to work along side of the Brinks guys when I worked at the casino, and they all pretty much hated their job, although I think it had more to do with the local managment.


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## zipperhead_cop

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> MOD HIJACK....Gryphs Sports Bar this Friday, 2200 hours, 1 beer[ cause then I play at 2230]...always lots after ....
> Look for a big old guy wearing a black army.ca golf shirt.......


What city is that in?


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## zipperhead_cop

Back to the Guelph memories!  If only I could remember her name...or knew it in the first place. ;D


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## The_Falcon

Sappo said:
			
		

> While on this particular topic too.... does anyone have any working information of armoured car services? As far as job training.. pay.. getting your foot in the door for a law enforcement job?
> 
> The company I work for right now, Group 4 Falck, which is now Group 4 Securicor, I am looking into transferring to the Securicor side for armoured car work.... I know the pay is better than what I am making now (its not hard to beat my pay).
> 
> Anyone work FOR them? Worked for them?
> 
> Lets see what info you guys have



Don't bother. I worked for Brinks, armoured car work has NOTHING to do with the law enforcement field.  It is a COURIER service that just happens to specialize in high value goods.  Because of that you carry a firearm to protect YOURSELF in case of robbery.  Do people who work at Brinks/Securicor get hired by the police. Yes, but so do teachers, secretaries, catererers, computer specialists.  Stay where you are at.


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## blacktriangle

Darn. Not relavent?

I wanted to take a police foundations course at humber after high school. I have talked to several young cops around here, and they both had police foundations under their belts...They also mentioned that a few officers have university degrees and military experience.

What about the paramedic course


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## Sappo

ShawnSmith,

This is why the thread is here... As I said young people who just finished highschool etc and are looking into law enforcement would be best suited to take this course.

Dont take what we say for 100% truth, my experiences will be different than yours.. also depending on the school you choose.

And on the flip side, you say several cops have police foundations, I know several who dont have police foundations 

It is what you decide to do, not everyone else.


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## zipperhead_cop

ShawnSmith said:
			
		

> Darn. Not relevant?
> 
> I wanted to take a police foundations course at humber after high school. I have talked to several young cops around here, and they both had police foundations under their belts...They also mentioned that a few officers have university degrees and military experience.
> 
> What about the paramedic course


No education is ever going to count against you.  What kind of learner were you in high school?  Were you good with books, or were you more hands on?  University is more pure theoretical knowledge at first and college is more directly applied.  
If paramedic interests you, go for it.  You will still get to deal with the crappiest elements of society (nobody calls for ambulances like the ghetto) and drive fast.  You just have to decide if you want to be the blood maker, or the blood patcher. ;D


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## little ruddiger

If you are already in PFP, finish it. You will get a since of accomplishment out of that diploma and it can't hurt regardless of what you do after. As far as the revelance and usefulness of PFP, it isn't. 

I took it and had some fun, met some good friends, learned a few things but that is all it is good for. It doesn't teach you how to do security work or police work. If you are a security guard and can find another job, do it immediately! With rare exception security work is low pay, low respect, thankless, dangerous, you work for idiots and police recruiters don't really care.

I hate to say it but if you are white, male, and unilingual Anglophone look elsewhere for employment, the police don't want you and you are a dime a dozen. If you can get over that handicap and still really want to be a cop. I recommend RCMP and Peel because they do their own testing. ATS is an expensive scam and the OACP should be ashamed of themselves for supporting them. 

The only thing that will get you into a police service is unfortunately bootlicking and persistence. I used to want to be a cop and I know a great deal about the hiring process. It is very negative and designed to intimidate and discourage you at every turn, not to mention the fact that the process repeatedly violates your charter rights.


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## Sappo

little ruddiger, no offence but it sounds like you had a really poor time trying to get recruited.... no sense in trying to discourage everyone from being a police officer simply because you couldnt get hired.

it seems that there is always people who are bitter from being rejected, once again.. no sense in discouraging other people who want to succeed.

if you look around hard enough, you know there are many avenues... goto school, enter an auxillary or cadet program, be the son of a high-ranking official 

take it easy ruddiger


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## little ruddiger

I was not really trying to discourage people from pursuing their dreams I just want to point out how flawed the recruiting system and PFP are. I feel that policing and security are of vital importance in this country and the way it is being conducted is ridiculous.

When I was in PFP there was thousands of others in the same boat as me granted the majority weren't really that serious about a career in law enforcement and\or, as pointed out by others here, not physically or mentally up to the task.

It seemed to me then and now what a waste it was for these young people showing the dedication to pay for and attend school for two years and were left flopping in the wind at the end. The same way I felt when attending ATS testing, here are people obviously showing at least some interest in law enforcement and the police services themselves showing no interest in them and removing themselves from their own hiring process.

The OACP, police services and Ministry of CSCS should be taking a more active role in PFP at community colleges because that is where you pick the apples from the tree. If the recruiting process began with college admission and there was interaction with recruiters, students and instructors over the two years before graduation that would be a much better assessment of the applicants skills, abilities and dedication. 

The current recruiting process is arbitrary and fickle decision are being made by an NCO who doesn't want to work nights and who doesn't  have to justify there actions to anyone especially not the applicant. The security industry is worse because it is public safety provided by the lowest bidder, and in many cases it shows. Security companies have no standards other than be 18, no record and entitled to work in Canada. That is why in most cases you can make more money at McDonald's or Tim Horton's and I am dead serious about that.

Police services in this country are shrinking, look it up. At the same time that security guards now out number police by about 5 to 1 in Canada and that number is growing. I gave up on being a police officer because I was tired of giving ATS $70.00 every 6 months to keep my PREP up to date, while police recruiters were telling the newspaper that their are no good applicants left. So I re-entered the reserves and went back to get my masters degree, it has worked out for the best for me. Having said all that give it your best shot but beware that there are many pit-falls. And good luck.


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## zipperhead_cop

Somebody is a bitter boy! :crybaby:
The "I'm a white guy I don't have a chance" faded about five years ago.  It is simply a question of competition.  Who are you, the amazing Kreskin?  You don't know anything about the other applicants so who are you to say you should have been hired over them?  
Just because you showed up and got a diploma, you think that there should be a cadre of recruiters pounding at your door?  You need volunteer work, life experience and you have to ace the interview.  The interview is the most difficult part of the process, so if anyone wants to concentrate their efforts anywhere, work on your interview skills.  If you are under 25 years old, you should just be patient.  Most hires now are on average 28 years old plus or minus a year.  

*"The only thing that will get you into a police service is unfortunately bootlicking and persistence. I used to want to be a cop and I know a great deal about the hiring process. It is very negative and designed to intimidate and discourage you at every turn, not to mention the fact that the process repeatedly violates your charter rights." * 

Wow, super bitter boy!  What is the Charter violation?  You are ASKING them to examine you!  I don't recall ever being ordered to take applications into the community and making people fill them out on pain of arrest for failing to.  No one is going to spoon feed you a job.  Get over it.  The people who make it are the ones who say "I will be an officer, it's just a matter of when" the go on to do whatever it takes.  I took me four years of constant applying and improving my resume.  A guy I got hired with took ten years and he was a jail guard (he kept getting crushed in the interview).  Out of the last fifty odd people that got hired to our service, there were about eight women and maybe five vis-mins.  

*"Police services in this country are shrinking, look it up."*

Okay, I'll look it up when you show me where to look.  However, I don't see me examining the inside of your ass, because that is where you pulled that tidbit up.  All over the country we are EXPANDING especially in Ontario.  This is the time to get on, because all of the baby boomer's are retiring and there is more money being sent to the police from the Ontario government.

* "I gave up on being a police officer because I was tired of giving ATS $70.00 every 6 months to keep my PREP up to date, while police recruiters were telling the newspaper that their are no good applicants left. "*

Way to hang in there and pursue your dreams.  Maybe the paper was right in your case.

You are being handed a $67,000 a year (plus overtime)  job with top shelf benefits and a huge responsibility to the community.  Of course it is hard to get in.  Everyone wants to be "in the game".  But only the people who demonstrate that they deserve to be in will get the brass ring.


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## Sappo

To say that police and law enforcement are shrinking is a big no no... everyone and their dog has heard about the plan to hire # of officers across ontario in the next few years.

I know personally our local small town police service has already hired 1 officer due to this hand out of money.


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## missing1

Reference zipperhead cop above, how true, even the age you stated is true. My youngest went through Law & Security in Kanata. The white boy bit was very prevalent when he finished his course but he hung in there and like you say perseverance paid off.
 Ruddiger, hiring in the police service is on the rise not the decline and if you have what they require (not what you think you have) but what they require you may get the chance to prove yourself.  Five years is a long wait, but worth it. Don't warn others off because you didn't make it.


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## little ruddiger

Slow down zipperhead we are on the same side here.  No need to be nasty. In answer to your delicately worded queries; it is a violation of the Charter to discriminate based on ethnicity or gender, if you are a cop you should know that. After all the Charter is the paramount law of the land. The little "voluntary" questionnaire that asks you to self-identify based on race should be removed Under S.15. 

I do believe that under represented segments of the population should be encouraged to apply. It is true the majority of hires, despite all the efforts to attract others, are white males and that is because the vast majority of applications are from white males. The numbers you quote from your service are not in line with most the services I have read about as far as tint and genitals of their new recruits but that is neither here nor there.

I also feel that those getting the jobs should be the best applicants and should have the character, skills and aptitudes that will serve them well on the street. My contention is that the police services are being lazy when it comes to determining this. Having more meaningfull involvement in the community college programs is a better way to see the potential in candidates. Contracting out your hiring process and a panel interview designed to scare them are not the best practices. 

You are part right the police services in Ontario are hiring but they are not expanding. They have to hire because they have a serious staffing crisis. They barely hired any cops through the 80's and 90's and their staffing levels are critically low. Yet they act as though they have all the time in the world to sort it out. The RCMP is short 400 front-line officers a year right now. That is not a new or even all time high level of attrition for them and they are short by thousands. But don't take my word for it http://www.stevenfletcher.com/archives/000162.php

Toronto even worse off proportionately, but I am still looking for that article, I will find it. As for being bitter I am not I just see a very real problem that is not being dealt with intelligently by police managers. As for giving up on dream, yes I did because, I made a choice not to participate any further in a process I see as extremely flawed and arbitrary. If you want to be a cop giver' I am not deliberately tryin to discourage anyone, I am just callin 'em the way I see 'em. I am happy doing what I do, I still think about doing police work but there are other things in life.


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## Sappo

I can understand how you see it as being a violation of the charter rights... but it IS voluntary... says so right on the form (I have one infront of me). It also states that this is used to determine just how many of their applicants are of a minority... this would help them to see if their recruiting practices are drawing the diversity they will need.


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## The_Falcon

little ruddiger said:
			
		

> It seemed to me then and now what a waste it was for these young people showing the dedication to pay for and attend school for two years and were left flopping in the wind at the end. The same way I felt when attending ATS testing, here are people obviously showing at least some interest in law enforcement and the police services themselves showing no interest in them and removing themselves from their own hiring process.
> 
> The OACP, police services and Ministry of CSCS should be taking a more active role in PFP at community colleges because that is where you pick the apples from the tree. If the recruiting process began with college admission and there was interaction with recruiters, students and instructors over the two years before graduation that would be a much better assessment of the applicants skills, abilities and dedication.



Please tell me where its says that a potential applicant MUST take police foundations to get on a service in Ontario.  Oh whats that you can't, because there is NO requirement for anybody to waste thier money on police foundations training.  Yeah thought so. Its NOT the responsibility of any police service to make sure you have a job waiting for you when/if you graduate from a PFP/LASA program.  Also do you even know why most police services follow the OACP testing.  It is to ensure a STANDARD test across the board, so an applicant can apply to many services without having to take a dozen different tests for each one.  It also ensures the smaller services don't have to spend limited resources on administering these test on a regular basis.  You may not like the fact that you have to redo a fitness every six months and pay ATS, but the simple fact is physical fitness is perishable.  As well ATS charges the same amount for testing as the OPP does (and Toronto when they did OACP testing).  Don't like testing with ATS go test with the OPP.



> The current recruiting process is arbitrary and fickle decision are being made by an NCO who doesn't want to work nights and who doesn't  have to justify there actions to anyone especially not the applicant. The security industry is worse because it is public safety provided by the lowest bidder, and in many cases it shows. Security companies have no standards other than be 18, no record and entitled to work in Canada. That is why in most cases you can make more money at McDonald's or Tim Horton's and I am dead serious about that.



Right : How about you fill in your profile, or at least explain how it is that you came to the conclusion the recruiting process is "arbitrary" and the "fickle decisions" are being made by lazy NCO.  Do you know any recruiters personally? (I do, a former D/Sgt from TPS recruiting is one of my college profs)  Have you ever worked in police recruiting?  Until you tell us who you are, no one is going to take anything you say seriously, because you just sound like someone who is bitter about not being hired by a police service.  Get over yourself and just deal with the fact that you were simply not good enough to get hired.  The fact is the recruiters DO have to justify thier actions to those who are above them (thier immediate supervisor usually a Sgt/SSGt, who then has to get approval of the HR manager).  

As to the security angle, again what is your experience working in this field?  Because again your generalizing, and do not know what you are talking about.  Are there some companies that have very low standards as you describe.  Yes there are, but they are in the minority.  I have worked for a few companies and each one had thier own internal training programs that covered a wide range of areas (use of force, powers of arrest, TPA, handcuffing, baton training, K9 training, etc.) as well their is legislation in the works that will make training a mandatory requirement  (its in third reading I believe and should be passed in a few months).




> Slow down zipperhead we are on the same side here.  No need to be nasty. In answer to your delicately worded queries; it is a violation of the Charter to discriminate based on ethnicity or gender, if you are a cop you should know that. After all the Charter is the paramount law of the land. The little "voluntary" questionnaire that asks you to self-identify based on race should be removed Under S.15.



Like you said voluntary, you don't like it, don't fill it out.



> I do believe that under represented segments of the population should be encouraged to apply. It is true the majority of hires, despite all the efforts to attract others, are white males and that is because the vast majority of applications are from white males. The numbers you quote from your service are not in line with most the services I have read about as far as tint and genitals of their new recruits but that is neither here nor there.



Wait now you are contridicting yourself, becuase you earlier stated that white males have no chance of getting on (based on your own failed attempts), but now you have come to the realization that is not in fact the case.



> I also feel that those getting the jobs should be the best applicants and should have the character, skills and aptitudes that will serve them well on the street. My contention is that the police services are being lazy when it comes to determining this. Having more meaningfull involvement in the community college programs is a better way to see the potential in candidates. Contracting out your hiring process and a panel interview designed to scare them are not the best practices.



Again what experience do you have to make the statement that police services are not selecting the best candidates for the job?  The fact that you weren't hired?  That doesn't cut it.  Have you researched/compared other recruiting methods and how they relate to the current methods in use now ?  Have you studied officers who have made it through this process and compared them (on the basis of any number factors like how many civillian complaints lodge against them over time, arrest and clearance records, commendations received etc.) to officers who have gone through other recruiting processes.  Again until you can show us your experience as it relates to designing/studying/implement recruiting policies your opinions and statements will come off as nothing more than a bitter, failed applicant.


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## little ruddiger

First to Sappo, because he has been polite. I am skeptical as to the "voluntary" nature of the questionnaire because I would suspect that not returning that portion of the application would likely land your application in the garbage. Can I prove this, no but as been pointed out again and again this is a highly competitive process limited space and tons of applications. Surely this is a quick way to thin the pile of "qualified" applicants.

As for Hatchet Man's thoughtful and articulate comments; nowhere did I indicate that PFP is a pre-requisite for being hired by a police service. So stop dancing because I don’t know where you got that from.

I do know the history behind the Constable Selection System and it makes some sense, my objection is to the price of testing and the fact that it is contracted to ATS. Yes the OPP do it too but the cost is the same. RCMP testing is similar and is given at no cost to an applicant. Peel Regional Police do there own tests, at no charge, which is superior and more involved. RCMP or Peel is scored instead of a pass/fail and neither look at OACP certificates.

Yes, I have known Police Recruiters and one admitted to me that under the current policies he would not get hired. As to the belaboured issue of visible minorities and your assertion that I am contracting myself, I am not. The vast majority of applications are from white males but the level of successful applications from people other than that segment of the population is disproportionately higher, good or bad that is the way it is. Again I never said you had no chance I said you are a dime a dozen and you are.

As for the new Security Guard and Private Investigators Act in Ontario it received third reading and Royal Assent on December 15, 2005 but has yet to be proclaimed (please do your research before you come talk to me). The old act stands until then so I hope you are not carrying a collapsible baton that’s a no no. The reason you have cuffs is because they weren’t regulated before and once training is mandatory your boss will yank them from your belt. Whether they return or not is up to your boss, but I would like to know did your boss pay for the all that impressive training or did you?

Although there are a few good parts to the new act, like portability of licences, there are no guarantees of decent and safe working conditions of front-line staff. No standard living wage and no recognition that private firms, who are not accountable to the public, are taking over more and more responsibility from the public police. 

If you continue in private security (perhaps with another company because it sounds like you have trouble holding down a job) the new act may very well have you wearing pleaded polyester pants and a tweed jacket with elbow patches and a giant reflective patch on back that says “NOT A COP KICK ME”. That is what groups like the OACP want because I am sure that your current uniform is too "police-like" and that is a big problem to them. 

But we have gotten off topic here the fact is that I have presented an alternative to what happens now with PFP at Community Colleges. As yet no one has made an argument against what I proposed. The Paramedic Program that was in the same building as us impressed me and the local EMS were up to there elbows with those guys. They were uniformed tons of field placement, very hands on and a tough course to pass. When they did pass they had everything they needed to apply right out of college. Why is it so far fetched to see some real improvement in PFP and graduate with pride, ready to apply because the course was relevant and useful to the student and the police? The fact that some people have attacked my post here only because I freely admitted having withdrawn my application indicate to me they believe my idea is sound. If it isn’t than tell me where you think my proposition is wrong or needs improving.

As for looking into different variables affecting recruiting and employment out-comes in policing. Thanks sounds like a great idea maybe I can work that into my thesis.

As to me filling in my profile.

*Like you said voluntary, you don't like it, don't fill it out.*

If people don’t take what I say seriously how is that my problem after all they are only opinions in space.


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## Sappo

Well, I'm just going to ignore the huge quagmire that has started and continue on the discussion.


As per ruddiger your comments about the EMT course.... I agree and have always agreed that PFP needs to put a 'foot down' we'll say... for their course.

I'm sure other schools run their courses different, but they really need to work on getting the classes into real life mode, career mode... not party and drink all night until next class mode.

Personally I would NOT want anyone I have had in my PFP classes as a partner... well let me rephrase that, a SELECT few. And that is simply because they were at least 25, and did not act like complete jackasses at every chance they got. They understood that a job was theres if they wanted it, and put forth the effort as such.

And also for the Security side of things, right now training is provided for us by our company (handcuff, arrest, use of force). Mind you I wish they would hurry up and implement some testing as well for Security employment. Fitness testing, that sort of thing... get rid of all those 80 year old's that sleep all night at the factories and plants.


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## The_Falcon

little ruddiger said:
			
		

> As for Hatchet Man's thoughtful and articulate comments; nowhere did I indicate that PFP is a pre-requisite for being hired by a police service. So stop dancing because I don’t know where you got that from.



I stand corrected you never said it is pre-req, but based on your comments you seem to indicate you would like it to be.



> I do know the history behind the Constable Selection System and it makes some sense, my objection is to the price of testing and the fact that it is contracted to ATS. Yes the OPP do it too but the cost is the same. RCMP testing is similar and is given at no cost to an applicant. Peel Regional Police do there own tests, at no charge, which is superior and more involved. RCMP or Peel is scored instead of a pass/fail and neither look at OACP certificates.


  

Then who would you want to conduct the tests?  Again, it comes down to resources (equipment, facilities, qualified testing personnel)  Services are stretched as it.  I already mentioned that the costs for the tests done by the OPP are the same as ATS.  The costs were the same when Toronto did the testing as well.  Paying for tests is not uncommon Calgary/Edmonton/Winnepeg are some of the other services that require you pay a fee in the applicant stage.  Also when you say the Peel tests are superior, what are you basing that on? Which components?  The physical is more challenging yes, but does that does not necessary translate as making it superior to the PREP.  If you make statements back them up.



> Yes, I have known Police Recruiters and one admitted to me that under the current policies he would not get hired. As to the belaboured issue of visible minorities and your assertion that I am contradicting (*fixed the spelling for you) myself, I am not. The vast majority of applications are from white males but the level of successful applications from people other than that segment of the population is disproportionately higher, good or bad that is the way it is. Again I never said you had no chance I said you are a dime a dozen and you are.



Really and what numbers are you looking at?  Toronto puts out the class stats for every one of their graduating classes, and if you go their website you can see that they just graduated a new class of 144 officers.  The stats for this class 16% women and 22% minorities.  Hmm, my math is a little fuzzy but that says to me that 84% of the class were MALE and 78% of the class were NON-MINORITIES.  That equals a lot  of WHITE MALES, becoming officers.  These numbers are pretty much the same for everyone of thier classes, if you don't believe me contact TPS and ask for the stats.  White males may be a dime a dozen, but the simple fact is, white males still make up significant portions of the classes.



> As for the new Security Guard and Private Investigators Act in Ontario it received third reading and Royal Assent on December 15, 2005 but has yet to be proclaimed (please do your research before you come talk to me). The old act stands until then so I hope you are not carrying a collapsible baton that’s a no no. The reason you have cuffs is because they weren’t regulated before and once training is mandatory your boss will yank them from your belt. Whether they return or not is up to your boss, but I would like to know did your boss pay for the all that impressive training or did you?


  

Ok then, I hadn't checked the status of the act in while.  But as for the rest of your comments, you are way off.  Please do YOUR RESEARCH.  1) I am aware that carrying a collapsible baton is not allowed (and that only applies to contract guards at the moment, inhouse security can still use them until the new act goes into effect), I never said I carried one either.  I did mention baton TRAINING, which is for the STRAIGHT and PR24 styles.  Which contract guards can carry if trained, and authorized by both the OPP (who handles licencing) and the local police in the jurisdiction which the guards work. 2)Cuffs may not have been stringently regulated in the old act, but you can be damn sure the companies I worked/work for (Intelligarde/Carecor) made sure you were trained to use them before you carried them, as they where liable in civil court if I or anyone else screwed up while using handcuffs. I can't speak for all companies but thats how it worked/works for these companies and few others that I know of (Intercon for one).  And no the training I recieved at Intelligarde was conducted in-house by a S/Sgt from TPS who also worked for Intelligarde, so I didn't pay a thing.  Carecor I don't carry handcuffs, cause I don't need them at the moment.



> Although there are a few good parts to the new act, like portability of licences, there are no guarantees of decent and safe working conditions of front-line staff. No standard living wage and no recognition that private firms, who are not accountable to the public, are taking over more and more responsibility from the public police.
> 
> If you continue in private security (perhaps with another company because it sounds like you have trouble holding down a job) the new act may very well have you wearing pleaded polyester pants and a tweed jacket with elbow patches and a giant reflective patch on back that says “NOT A COP KICK ME”. That is what groups like the OACP want because I am sure that your current uniform is too "police-like" and that is a big problem to them.


  

There are no guarantees in the Police Service Act of decent or safe working conditions for front line staff.  That kind of thing is covered under various labour/workmans comp laws.  The standard living wage is covered under employment law.  Except for a few companies security whole deal in housing security, I don't see much responsibility being eroded from the police.  And security is accountable to the police and the civil courts if they screw up.   And I have no problems holding down a job, I left Intelligarde voluntarily (like all my jobs, I leave when I find something better)to start a Class B contract.  In fact I won't be working much longer in private security as I am going in-house with the OLGC.



> But we have gotten off topic here the fact is that I have presented an alternative to what happens now with PFP at Community Colleges. As yet no one has made an argument against what I proposed. The Paramedic Program that was in the same building as us impressed me and the local EMS were up to there elbows with those guys. They were uniformed tons of field placement, very hands on and a tough course to pass. When they did pass they had everything they needed to apply right out of college. Why is it so far fetched to see some real improvement in PFP and graduate with pride, ready to apply because the course was relevant and useful to the student and the police? The fact that some people have attacked my post here only because I freely admitted having withdrawn my application indicate to me they believe my idea is sound. If it isn’t than tell me where you think my proposition is wrong or needs improving.



In terms of building bridges between the colleges, TPS is doing exactly that.  But until the PROVINVIAL GOVERNMENT changes PFP curriculum to include the hard skill set of policing (firearms training, DT, handcuffing, PVO), then you won't see the police "up to their elbows" with college students.  Thats why paramedic students go out on field placements, to practice the hard skills they have been trained in(placing IVs/airways, C-collars, performing rapid assesments etc), when they are hired by an EMS they don't require training in these areas. They do a couple of tests, and they are out on the road with a preceptor who monitors and coaches them.   As well, the liability and safety issues WRT to field placements are very different when comparing Paramedic with Police.  For one, paramedics don't get shot at, nor are they required to be in dangerous situations on a continual basis. 



> As to me filling in my profile.
> 
> *Like you said voluntary, you don't like it, don't fill it out.*
> 
> If people don’t take what I say seriously how is that my problem after all they are only opinions in space.



Filling out a profile is voluntary yes, but it is strongly encouraged if you had taken the time to read the post in Admin area called Army.ca Conduct Guidelines http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html  Like it says people are hesitant to take others seriously if we know nothing about that person.  You want your opinions to matter, let us know who you are.


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## Thompson_JM

to echo Sappo's Post. I had the same feeling in my class. there were a SELECT few whom I would want as a partner. several of them are already in the process and one has already been hired by TPS. 

heres the shocker.... THEY'RE White MALES!!!  

its not that I didnt get along with anyone from that class who was a visable minority. in fact there were several who will also no doubt go on to excell in the law enforcement feild as they were also great people and more then suitably qualified. 
but the reality is that most of the students in the class were more or less Caucasian. 

black, white, yellow, red, purple, green, or pinstripped, it doesnt matter. youre either qualified or you arnt. If you are qualified, then you will get hired. maybe not the 1st round, but you will make it eventually. I know I will one day be a police officer. and I know what I have to do to get there. 

lastly for Ruddiger, I echo hatchet mans comment about the profile. 

youre talking to a group of military, police, emergency serivices workers who deal with anything and everything.... we are not the type to accept things at face value very often.. the same goes for posts... it is voluntary to fill out the profile. but if you want us to take you seriously then you might want to add a few details about your "Life Experience"

Regards
  Josh


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## Sappo

Hey thompson... I never did ask did you complete? or are you still in a PFP program?


And yea... I was just talking to my boss the other day from work (security) and was telling him about my future goals.. he was all gun-ho to go calling up police recruiters and giving a phone-reference for me right then and there... god I love him in a non-sexual way 

But he was telling me that he knows of 3-4 people who just got hired on police services (TPS being one of them) and they did not had a PFP course under their belt... they just simply put in the effort.

I will reinterate once again, if you are YOUNG (fresh outta highschool lets say) take the course... if anything you will meet some good contacts in the law enforcement world that can be to your benefit. If you are a bit older, I would highly suggest training... PT... OTHER courses (such as firearms courses, 2nd language skills dependant on where you want to work) things that will only help to make you shine above the rest, and all the while build up your references, work and life experience. 

I have moved past the PFP stage... as I found it lacking in the direction I was trying to take myself... Now I am taking firearms courses instead, I am PT'ing my little ass down the block, I am talking to people I have worked with (arn't Mcpl's great!) and getting letters of reference, and finally I am shooting for a Cadet position... to get my foot in the door. I could apply straight for a constable position, but I think that this way will give me even more time to 'grow' for the position before I undertake it.


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## Thompson_JM

thats sort of where I am at right now... 

Its not that ive given up on Police Foundations, Its just that I feel that between my life experience, my military time, and the time i did spend in college, I'm ready for that job, and there isnt anything new I need to learn at Humber that I cant Learn at OPC or Depot. In the meantime like Sappo I plan to be PT-ing myself to the point where I can crack Walnuts with my Pecs... okay maybe not that extreme, but you get the idea. 

Would I go back? If it made the difference between being hired and not being hired, then yes absolutly, but as i said, I feel confident in my abilities and dont feel that a college Diploma is going to be that much of a difference at this point in time. 

Regards
   Josh

*modified to spell my name properly...... *


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## Sappo

Aye... so you're not in PFP right now then I take it?

Phew, at least you said Pecs and not something else!

But Yea, I dont really care if the run is only a 1.5m, in my opinion if I see someone do 1.5m then collapse because thats ALL they can do... they dont really deserve to be wearing that badge. They should say 1.5m is the SUGGESTED run... if you want to get hired run that 3-4 times


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## little ruddiger

I think that a re-rolled community college program should be a pre-requisite for employment with police. I know that in Quebec that is the case and maybe looking at the CEGEP program is a good place to start from. 

I advocate much more involvement by Police, Ministry of CSCS and why not the Feds while were at it. The Constable Selection System could be build right into the program. It would make the College Diploma and OACP certificate more than just a fancy receipt for services rendered. 

As for testing it should be a part of tuition and conducted jointly by police and the college. The facilities and faculty for the most part are set up around the province already so a lot of the infrastructure already exists. I am saying start using the potential that is already there. 

You can’t tell that me ATS running their gear and proctors in cube-vans from one end of the province to the other is an efficient way of doing things. Not to mention the fact that $300.00 is rent to a lot of people and $70.00 is groceries, are we saying that we don’t want the poor in our police services. If the required testing is included in tuition at least it is tax deductible.

I’ll go you one further, if you want to apply outside of Ontario or just want the experience for a little extra you could do the RPAT, PARE or whatever other tests maybe required by other police services, MNR, CBSA, Corrections, you name it. Why not load up the bus with interested students and head down to Mississauga and try out for Peel one weekend. Can anyone say “PFP field trip!” All tax deductible educational expenses.


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## Sappo

Well see, I think the police services should really be more involved in the PFP programs... but this is something that will probably never happen.. at least not anytime soon.

Something similar to the way the US does their testing/hiring process would be a good idea... you can goto any of the local training schools, get your certificate and then apply to a police service, thats it.


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## The_Falcon

The problem with making PFP a pre-req for hiring rudiger is that you WILL be discriminating at against those who are poor.  $300 (OACP testing) vs over $4000 (tuition and books) for a college diploma.  You tell me which is more affordable for those on low income?  As well seeing how many police services are trying to attract more applicants with life experience (ie older applicants in the their late 20s and early 30s), many who have families, taking time off to go to school would place undo strain on those families/applicants.  Are there people in that age group go back to school.  Sure there are, but the reason for doing so are not always because they are related to finding a new line of work, some do it for the hell of it or because their employer will pick up the tab.  But to target a certain population and then say you have to spend x amount of money on a piece of paper but have no guarantee of getting a job with that paper is a little unfair and not necessary.


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## Sappo

Well Hatchet Man my idea behind the 'link' between police services and PFP would be that it would be such a intensive POLICE oriented course, that it would almost eliminate the need for ATS etc... you could take the course... and pretty much walk right into the recruiting Sergeants officer afterwards and say "We worked together, will you hire me" type of deal.

My vision of such a closly knit college+police program will never ever happen, but it is nice to dream


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## The_Falcon

Sappo said:
			
		

> Well Hatchet Man my idea behind the 'link' between police services and PFP would be that it would be such a intensive POLICE oriented course, that it would almost eliminate the need for ATS etc... you could take the course... and pretty much walk right into the recruiting Sergeants officer afterwards and say "We worked together, will you hire me" type of deal.
> 
> My vision of such a closly knit college+police program will never ever happen, but it is nice to dream



Don't get me wrong I have taken PFP at two colleges and I would love to see more of the hard police skillset integrated into the program.  But I don't think that will happen either, but probably for a different reason.  When I was at Humber, one of profs (R Stansfield) was telling a group of people in my ethics class that original idea behind the PFP was it was going to be a pre-req to being hired but all it would teach is what is taught now (ie all the laws and theories).  And that OPC would be free to concentrate on hardskills.  This as we know has not happened, for whatever reason.  Given that the PFP was solely created to impart all the soft skills a potential officer would need, and that the teaching of ALL the hard skills would be left to OPC (to candidates fully vetted by their respective services I might add), I highly doubt public colleges will be allowed to teach those hardskills.  Private Career Colleges can those skills if they wish and still grant you a PFP diploma so long as they teach all the compulsory course mandated by the government. Of course you pay through the nose to go to a private career college.

As well, even if colleges were permitted to teach those hard skills, you would/should need to do thorough background and psychological tests on potential students (especially if those colleges were conducting DT, and firearms training).  Some of the people here at Centennial I hope NEVER become police officers (either they are dimwitted in-conpentent nitwits, or they are criminals).  This would definitely jack up the tuition.  Also I don't care how "involved" police recruiters get, their would still be no job guarantees, as any service looking to avoid liability issues (cough Toronto cough) would still do their own interviews/medicals/psych tests just to cover their asses.  All of which you could still potentially FAIL. 

The current system in Ontario may not be perfect, but I personally believe it is better than most (how many other systems are out their that allow you to apply to many different police services at the same time without having to do a test for each individual service?).  Some of you (rudiger), just need to face facts. Not everyone is going to be hired and there is NO law that says you have a right to be a Police Officer, it is a PRIVILEGE plain and simple.  $300-500 (depending on how many times you redo the tests like the PREP) is not whole lot to pay for that privilege all things considered.  Its cheaper than a 2 year diploma, and way cheaper than a 4 year degree, in the States many services REQUIRE a degree (think of how much a degree costs down there) or X number of years of ACTIVE duty MILITARY experience (considering Iraq and Astan, and how many US servicemen are killed and injured each day, the costs you could incur are far beyond any monetary value you might pay for school).  So I will continue to pay my $67 every 6 months, and I won't stop trying to get onto a service until I get a letter telling me that I should stop because I will never get on.


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## little ruddiger

Thompson and Sappo, I would strongly urge you to finish what you started at PFP. If you don't finish it I can tell you right now that one of the big questions in the interview will be why not and they will use it to rattle you. If you need to take time-off, do it but going back and getting your diploma is the right move.

With the way that PFP is currently set-up some universities have articulation agreements that get you a year's worth of university credits for your college diploma. If your marks are good you can also get Academic Excellence Scholarships that save you even more if you choose to go to university. With university tuition and books running at about $6000 per year it is an excellent avenue for higher education. The CF also will pick-up up to $2000 for every school year. I believe that this bursary is available to NCM's as well as Officer Cadets but your recruiter can tell you. Add to this a decent B-Class in the summer and your laughing as far as the cost of a university degree.

After I finished PFP I had these facts staring me in the face at the same time I was spinning my wheels waiting to hear back from police services. I said "fornicate this" I am going to university and getting my commission, I liked it so much I stuck around. I know that being an officer and getting degrees is not for everyone but you can see how the option to keep throwing my money down the ATS pit was a less attractive.

I assume you guys have been through CF recruiting and they treat you like you are an adult. They show mutual respect to their applicants and seem to genuinely appreciate that you show an interest in joining. Police services, in comparison, act like they wouldn't give you the steam off their pee. Hatchet Man what you wrote is well worded and you have put thought into what you say and I respect that but, if you honestly think that all police applicants are on any even field and get a fair deal, than I have some property I would like to sell to you . 

One of the reason that I see the RCMP and Peel systems as superior is that members of the service you apply to are actually in the room. You have to admit that seeing your applicants perform the tests and their reactions and interactions with others should be important to recruiters. Not to mention what they can learn about you if they are in the college watching how you progress through a two year program. 

You are right that dollar for dollar college is more expensive than ATS but it is no secret that post-secondary education is becoming more and more essential for good employment. You are not going to OSAP, bursaries, scholarships or a line of credit to do ATS you will either put it on your credit card or mom and dad pay.

To Zipperhead I am not trying to offend but come on, 4 and 10 years for the police to hire you is crazy, I bet that you and your buddy were likely not that much more employable in the end then when you started the process. A lot of people who would be good cops will pull-up stakes and move on and it is a shame. Yes it shows dedication to keep it at for so long but some people get hired within weeks and that is what I am talking about when I say the process is fickle and arbitrary.


----------



## Baloo

Hey, Hatchet Man, Ron Stansfield (if we're talking about the same guy...most likely, we are indeed) is the head of the Justice Studies program at the University of Guelph-Humber. Really good guy.


----------



## GO!!!

rudigger,

I think that police forces are already having some problems meeting their recruiting goals. Edmonton wants to hire something like a hundred officers this year, and they are having real problems with recruiting, even with an army base of 5600 in the city, and a median age far below the national average.  

I think that the institutional arrogance that police forces exhibited in terms of recruiting for the last 10-15 years is coming back to bite them in the a$$ now, because no keen, employable young man is going to work a shyte job for five years while waiting for the EPS to realise he is worth hiring. I recently watched a friend of mine apply, to the EPS and the RCMP. He jumped through all of the hoops for both, was given an offer of employment, and waited, and waited and waited. While he was waiting, he started working as an apprentice plumber. By the time the course date came (RCMP, then EPS) within a week of each other, he was making 27.50hr, with full benefits, more raises every 3 months and all the overtime he could handle. He told the police to stuff it, and is now starting his own company.

The days of the depressed economy, and quality recruits waiting months and years for a job are over. If our police forces are going to recruit the best, they will have to be alot more trasparent and timely in their processes, or they will be left with the candidates who are unemployable in other areas.


----------



## The_Falcon

Baloo said:
			
		

> Hey, Hatchet Man, Ron Stansfield (if we're talking about the same guy...most likely, we are indeed) is the head of the Justice Studies program at the University of Guelph-Humber. Really good guy.



Yup, same guy when I was at Humber in Fall 02 he taught the ethics course in first semester. This was before Guelph-Humber started. That course was amazing, way better than Centennial.  I sat in on the ethics classes (had the transfer credit, but since I already paid for the course in my tuition, I opted to audit the class), and man did it suck.  Some of my other instructors at Centennial know Stansfield as well, and they all same the same thing.  That he is one hell of a prof and knows his stuff inside and out.  I happen to agree with them.  I really wanted to stay at Humber but the commuting distance from the East side of Scarborough (ie near Pickering) to either Humber campus was to much for me.


----------



## Sappo

Rudiger, the problem right now is mainly money for me.

I cant force myself to sit in these classes and watch my bank account get lower and lower... as it is I'm about 15k INTO my line of credit.

Working to try and repay that loan is enough in itself.. and if and when I get the loan paid off I cant see myself dropping another 6k just to take the course.

I am happy with my choice thus far, and already I am making new contacts and things are looking up.

Everyone is different, I plan on making it work this way


----------



## little ruddiger

I totally understand what student debt is all about, it sucks. I try my best not to think about my own debt because it is scary and I am by no means the worse off student I know. Being a police officer is not a privilege it is a job and being treated fairly is a right. Plain and simple.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

little ruddiger said:
			
		

> After I finished PFP I had these facts staring me in the face at the same time I was spinning my wheels waiting to hear back from police services. I said "fornicate this" I am going to university and getting my commission, I liked it so much I stuck around. I know that being an officer and getting degrees is not for everyone but you can see how the option to keep throwing my money down the ATS pit was a less attractive.



So you are telling us that you hold a commission from Her Majesty, yet you refuse to complete the profile that all of the honourable real CF members on this site have?  My BS-O-meter is screaming in the red.



			
				little ruddiger said:
			
		

> Police services, in comparison, act like they wouldn't give you the steam off their pee. Hatchet Man what you wrote is well worded and you have put thought into what you say and I respect that but, if you honestly think that all police applicants are on any even field and get a fair deal, than I have some property I would like to sell to you .


Ugh!  To go through life so bitter!  You quit the process.  Get over it.  You failed.



			
				little ruddiger said:
			
		

> To Zipperhead I am not trying to offend but come on, 4 and 10 years for the police to hire you is crazy, I bet that you and your buddy were likely not that much more employable in the end then when you started the process. A lot of people who would be good cops will pull-up stakes and move on and it is a shame. Yes it shows dedication to keep it at for so long but some people get hired within weeks and that is what I am talking about when I say the process is fickle and arbitrary.


Wow!  To late.  If only I could have your magic eight ball to do my job I would have my city sewn up overnight.  I hope you use mouth wash for your enema's because you do a lot of talking out of your ass.
We both did a tonne of stuff to improve ourselves from start to finish.  And I probably didn't deserve the job the first time I applied, when I see what the guys that have that many more years on me had at the time I applied.   IF you really have what it takes, you *will* get on.  



			
				little ruddiger said:
			
		

> I totally understand what student debt is all about, it sucks. I try my best not to think about my own debt because it is scary and I am by no means the worse off student I know. Being a police officer is not a privilege it is a job and being treated fairly is a right. Plain and simple.


No, it is a priveledge.  You have to earn it, and most do not.  

Sappo, do whatever is best for you.  Of the seven that I got hired with:  I had Law and Security, Queens Commission and lots of volunteer work.  Next guy:  five years jail guard, tonnes of volunteer work, BSc, next female with firefighter courses and security experience, no post secondary, next female:  Ms. Fitness Canada winner with paramedic job, next male:  owned his own landscaping business with a Masters of Kinesiology, next male:  BA in history, some volunteer, next female: no volunteer, no secondary, only ever worked as a waitress, next male:  dancer in an international dance troupe and volunteer with the RCMP.  The one thing we had in common--we can pass an interview.  That is the only thing that matters.  All this other crap is what gets you through the door and to an interview.  If you can't pull that off, then it won't matter if you are a brain surgeon and personally captured Osama Bin Laden.  (Oh, and we are all white)


----------



## Sappo

But... I got osama in my basement right now... DANG


----------



## zipperhead_cop

;D

Stop letting him use your Barbie Sing'n'Record.  Yer gonna get caught.


----------



## blacktriangle

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> No education is ever going to count against you.  What kind of learner were you in high school?  Were you good with books, or were you more hands on?  University is more pure theoretical knowledge at first and college is more directly applied.
> If paramedic interests you, go for it.  You will still get to deal with the crappiest elements of society (nobody calls for ambulances like the ghetto) and drive fast.  You just have to decide if you want to be the blood maker, or the blood patcher. ;D



I don't feel like going to university for the hell of it, like most of my friends. After four years I'll graduate with a degree in basketweaving and be no more employable then I could be with a "useless" PF diploma.

However, I wouldn't mind being an officer in the military...the only thing that would really push me to go for a degree. Does anyone here know about mature applicant status with universities? I think I read once that if I complete a college program, even if I didn't take all university prep courses in school, I would still be considered?

I'm thinking police foundations would be a place to start. Hell, my friend's mom is a cop and said the criminals sometimes take it for kicks.

P.S I know all about the ghetto. There are paramedics at my school frequently, and I swear they might as well set up a police station in the parking lot.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

If you can get in as a DEO (do they have that anymore?) then go for it.  You can get your 20 years in and still be pretty marketable when you retire.  They you get a salary and draw your pension.  We hired a 43 year old guy that was an ex PPCLI and Canadian Parachute team member (I apologize for forgetting the teams name...SkyHawks?) and he is having a great time.  Makes enough jake to be a small aircraft instructor in his part time.  Then you can have the best of both worlds.  
Or be a bitter unemployed security guard advocate lobbing posts from your moms basement.  
Your choice. ;D


----------



## Thompson_JM

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Or be a bitter unemployed security guard advocate lobbing posts from your moms basement.




why do i get the feeling he also runs a comic book store....... (simpsons reference for you numptys out there)


----------



## Renkluaf

Hey there everyone, I apologize for the noobishness right out of the gates, I tried to sign up on blueline but they don't accept hotmail or gmail email addresses. 

Anyways, I'm starting school this January, I narrowed down my options and I have chosen to pursue a life in policing or investigation (RCMP, TPS or OPP if possible)

I was curious if anybody knew the differences between those two courses offered? Under my schools programs page, the jobs that are listed for both programs are exactly the same so I just want to make sure I'm clear on my choice before I go ahead with it. 

Thanks in advance and hopefully talk to some of you soon. Thanks


----------



## brihard

Jesus dude, don't do either. They're very nearly worthless programs. If you can't register for Blueline, you can at least read the 'police foundations' thread in LEApplicants sub forum. Or google "police foundations site:blueline.ca".

Those college programs are useless money grab and are exceptionally limiting if for whatever reason you do not get accepted into the police (most don't) or you find it not to your liking.

Police forces want to see *an* education- not merely an attempt to shoddily duplicate the training they'll give you anyway. The RCMP needs only six months to take a raw civilian and make him a constable. Ontario forces do it in theee. How can you possibly think a two year college program will give you your money's worth? Police aren't looking for people who think they already have been trained how to do the job.

None of the people I know who are now cops did PF. None of them. Police forces were interested that they had some sort of schooling but it disn't matter what. Job experience, a real education, and community involvement bring more to the table.

It's not too late to reevaluate your approach. Those money-grab college programs are a waste, and you can never get your two years back.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Even worse is  Sir Sandford Fleming College's 2-year Correctional Worker course..............back when I started it was 3 weeks paid and you were good to go and even nowadays you're hired and then pay for a 6 week course that isn't very much money.

In 23 years I honestly don't know A CO who took the Corrections course at a college.


----------



## ArmyRick

My mother was a provincial corrections officer 28 years ago, back then you joined and they trained you, no money paid. 

Different now. I did not realize they had a college program for corrections officer. Personally I am guessing (note use of the word since I have no direct experience) that careers and training in Police, corrections officer are best run by the organizations themselves.

Maybe next they will create a "Military Foundations Program" at a college for aspiring future members of the CF!


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> My mother was a provincial corrections officer 28 years ago, back then you joined and they trained you, no money paid.



Hmm,.......I believe you're in the same province as I am and 23 years ago we got paid from the first moment we walked through the doors.....and my boss just did his tour [35 years] and he confirms that.

EDIT:  I may have screwed up what you meant by "paid".



			
				ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Maybe next they will create a "Military Foundations Program" at a college for aspiring future members of the CF!



If they think they could rip off the kids there is a "need" for it.


----------



## Renkluaf

It can't be literally useless can it?    I appreciate the quick replies, I am not using this course as a stepping stone as a guarantee to get into a force, but I think after the two years are done I will be more mentally and physically prepared wit this course then without. 

Specifically though does anybody know the difference between the two courses?


----------



## ArmyRick

Bruce, 

I will re-phrase carefully. My sentence structure can really out to lunch at times. Yes my mother did get paid from first moment of joining.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Thanks.


----------



## mariomike

Renkluaf said:
			
		

> I narrowed down my options and I have chosen to pursue a life in policing or investigation (RCMP, TPS or OPP if possible)



You mentioned TPS.

Q: Do I need a Police Foundations diploma or a Law and Security diploma to be hired?

A: There is no requirement by the Toronto Police Service for a candidate to attend any Police Foundations or Law and Security program. The only requirement in regards to education is that a candidate possess’ a minimum grade 12 diploma or equivalent certificate.
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/uni_faq.php#q30

Depending on your age ( "be at least 18 years of age" ), you may wish to consider joining TPS as a Cadet.

TPS Cadets receive a base salary of $54,398.66 ( not including overtime ), and are included in the OMERS Supplemental Pension Plan for Police, Firefighters and Paramedics.


----------



## GAP

Is that not what all these "Volunteer Police Cadet" programs are for? To take the most likely and introduce them them early to the misc grind of policing, to develop the mindset?


----------



## brihard

Renkluaf said:
			
		

> It can't be literally useless can it?    I appreciate the quick replies, I am not using this course as a stepping stone as a guarantee to get into a force, but I think after the two years are done I will be more mentally and physically prepared wit this course then without.
> 
> Specifically though does anybody know the difference between the two courses?



As close to literally useless as any college course I'm aware of. You would be competitive, at best, for a mall security job. I was in a lecture given by Senator Vern White when he was still chief of Ottawa Police. 10% of PF grads at most are ops within a year of grad. 30% will ever be, and that's with all subsequent education and experience. Learn a trade or get a degree- something to give you fallback options, as well as something that will offer you some interesting knowledge or capabilities on the side. You'd be surprised at what specialties can exist in policing.


----------



## RCDtpr

I have police foundations and got hired.  I don't regret taking it at all.  I'm not the university type as I don't place a lot of importance on reading books and coming up with theories.  Being more of a hands on kind of person, I chose the college route.  Policing was something I was very interested in and because of the fact I was learning something I enjoyed, I put a lot more effort than I would have in a course I didn't care about.

In the end, regardless off what the diploma is in, nobody can take away the fact that I'm college educated.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Thirty years ago I graduated from a law enforcement program from a college in Alberta.  All of my classmates who wanted to continue onto a career did.  All of them.  That being said, at the time the course I took was one of the best available outside of an in-house training program.  I can't say that in today's world that same education would still be as valuable or recognized by a law enforcement entity but back then, it was.


----------



## garb811

I will echo the refrain, be very, very wary of a Police Foundations (or similar) course.  I have been exposed to pers enrolled in quite a few different programs as they come to us for the work experience hours and there are very few that are worth the money but even then, they do not guarantee any employment at the end.

*IF* you are going to take one, do the research.  Go and see the facilities, talk to current students about what they are actually learning.  I was giving a presentation at one and was told by one of the students that one of their courses had essentially devolved into the instructor coming in and talking about his former career each day and that was it.  Also, find out if police services are sending recruiters to them to make recruitment presentations in person, that's a pretty good indication that they have a worthwhile program in and of itself (ie. a friends kid went to Atlantic Police College in PEI and they had Edmonton, Medicine Hat, Calgary and I believe Winnipeg, come out to try to recruit.  A fairly good number of that course ended up going to Medicine Hat).

It is pretty sad to be talking to someone who has gone $30k into debt for a course who has come to the realization that their chances of getting a job in their desired professional have not been helped, and perhaps have been hindered, by doing it.

A friend of mine had some interesting advice from a recruiter when she inquired with CPS before going to college about 10 years ago.  The recruiter told her to avoid police foundations at Mount Royal as the applicants from that program were a dime a dozen.  The advice given to her was to go for something like accounting or computer science to make her stand out from the crowd and to bring in a skill set that was lacking within CPS at the time.


----------



## brihard

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Thirty years ago I graduated from a law enforcement program from a college in Alberta.  All of my classmates who wanted to continue onto a career did.  All of them.  That being said, at the time the course I took was one of the best available outside of an in-house training program.  I can't say that in today's world that same education would still be as valuable or recognized by a law enforcement entity but back then, it was.



Yup, this would be a then/now thing. These days everyone and their dog has an education, and a unviersity degree is no remarkable at all.




			
				RCDcpl said:
			
		

> I have police foundations and got hired.  I don't regret taking it at all.  I'm not the university type as I don't place a lot of importance on reading books and coming up with theories.  Being more of a hands on kind of person, I chose the college route.  Policing was something I was very interested in and because of the fact I was learning something I enjoyed, I put a lot more effort than I would have in a course I didn't care about.
> 
> In the end, regardless off what the diploma is in, nobody can take away the fact that I'm college educated.



Fair points- although your time in uniform likely had at least as much to do as the specific nature of your education. And the problem is that if policing doesn't end up working out for you, your education has negligible value anywhere else. College programs of a technical nature are often excellent for the field in which they are in, but are narrowly applicable if at all outside of it. The value of education to the police is seldom in exactly *what* you learned, but rather as a metric of your ability to be a self starter academically and to be teachable/trainable.


----------



## MedCorps

Brihard said:
			
		

> Yup, this would be a then/now thing. These days everyone and their dog has an education, and a unviersity degree is no remarkable at all.



I would disagree.  Having an undergraduate university degree is indeed remarkable as only apx 1 in 4 Canadian adults have one. It is just more common than it used to be.  I have seen a number of young adults struggle to get a an undergraduate degree over the years (due to finances, intellect, drive, socio-economic situation, etc, etc).  It is a long three year struggle for some people, even if it was a piece of cake for you.  

MC


----------



## brihard

MedCorps said:
			
		

> I would disagree.  Having an undergraduate university degree is indeed remarkable as only apx 1 in 4 Canadian adults have one. It is just more common than it used to be.  I have seen a number of young adults struggle to get a an undergraduate degree over the years (due to finances, intellect, drive, socio-economic situation, etc, etc).  It is a long three year struggle for some people, even if it was a piece of cake for you.
> 
> MC



Among serious and competitive applicants to police forces it is entirely unremarkable for someone in my age bracket to have at a minimum a college diploma, and a university degree raises no comment or remark whatsoever. There may be a small number of applicants still squeaking in with only high school, but that's quite rare, and they normally have considerable other life experience to offset that.

If you want to be a competitive police applicant, you get a post secondary education. That's just how it is. The majority of police forces I've ever spoken to on the matter have considerable disdain for police foundations programs, as they're viewed as completely redundant when the recruit will do full training anyway, and the quality of training at a number of them is deemed quite questionable by some forces. There are a handful of actual police *academies* in Canada, in the sense of being formal police training institutions that are credited as acceptable pre-service training by police forces. The RCMP Depot, the Ontario Police College, Atlantic Police Academy, Saskatchewan Police College... Only in Quebec have I ever come across Police Foundations equivalents (Techniques Policiers) being requisite for admission to a police academy.

If the OP is insistent on taking his PF diploma, or law and security, so be it. It's a shame he can't get access to Blueline- if he's not willing to believe me, he might find the similar opinions of the many serving police officers there to be enlightening.


----------



## mariomike

Police Foundations in the news.

Dec 4, 2012 

TPS Public Safety Alert:
http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/release.php?id=25171
"they stated they were Police Cadets and were wearing Police Foundations Training shirts and also wore Toronto Police Service buttons" 

"One of the men was in a police foundations program at a Toronto college":
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/12/04/two-men-pose-as-police-cadets-prowl-high-rise-building-asking-for-donations/


----------



## The_Falcon

A Guy in the PF program at Centennial College when I was there beat the crap out of his girlfriend on campus.  It was really easy to tell, since at Centennial uniforms are mandatory.  Unless you are set on joining the MPs, or an organization which requires it as a hard and fast requirement (most special constable agencies in Ontario for example), don't bother with PF.


----------



## brihard

That's one of the problems with PF right there. It's proven to be such a money maker for the colleges that some programs are very unselective about who gets admitted. That in turn has greatly hindered the regard with which the programs are held by many police forces.


----------



## The_Falcon

Brihard said:
			
		

> That's one of the problems with PF right there. It's proven to be such a money maker for the colleges that some programs are very unselective about who gets admitted. That in turn has greatly hindered the regard with which the programs are held by many police forces.



Well to be fair to the point, most programs are offered by publicly subsized colleges, beyond vetting your academic/credentials, there isn't much else they are going to screen for (and it's possibly the only thing they are allow to screen for).  Some even have disclaimer that in order to get hired by a police force, one must still complete that services screening process.


----------



## noneck

I have to agree with Brihard and his advice. I've been a LEO for 13 years, I think you'd be a more competitive applicant with a tech diploma,financial certificate or trade behind you. If you want to add relevant policing experience I would suggest getting involved in a volunteer program with the agency you aim to join such as victims services, crime watch or at a community policing office. These are great try before you buy options for both you the applicant and also a future employer....it can make or break your application!

Noneck


----------



## mariomike

Police auxiliary may also be an option worth considering. 

You gain volunteer hours wearing the uniform of the service you hope to be employed by.


----------



## Dissident

Reserve Military Police might be a good place to start looking. I sadly do not have contact info for 2 MP Regt recruiting.


----------



## Thompson_JM

noneck said:
			
		

> I have to agree with Brihard and his advice. I've been a LEO for 13 years, I think you'd be a more competitive applicant with a tech diploma,financial certificate or trade behind you. If you want to add relevant policing experience I would suggest getting involved in a volunteer program with the agency you aim to join such as victims services, crime watch or at a community policing office. These are great try before you buy options for both you the applicant and also a future employer....it can make or break your application!
> 
> Noneck



I echo all of these guys before me. I'm in a weird place, as I am actually going back to finish my PFP Diploma, however I am doing it, as it will open up more doors into the secondary LE type jobs such as Courts, Campus and transit Cop jobs. All of which are a good stepping stones, and/or alternate law enforcement career options.  It's easier for me to go back for a semester and finish up, than it would be to start all over in a new program at 31. 

To anyone young, and new, do what these guys are saying. Get a different program. Do some labour market research and see where the job and career trends are. Find something in-demand, that you think you would enjoy and learn that.  

PFP is a useless waste of time at 17. You'll come out of there at 19 and end up having to go to uni or whatnot to build more life experience, before the services will look at you.  

If you've got it in your heart to do it, I wont stop you, but you're better off learning a fallback career, and doing some solid volunteer work. 

Just my .02


----------



## The_Falcon

I am almost in the same situation as you Tommy. I started taking PF 10 years ago, and learned very quickly how useless it is.  And once I got into the working world I really didn't want to go back full time to finish because I can't stand wasting my time in classrooms.   But I really didn't want to leave it unfinished, which means I have been completing it off and on when I have the time and money part time.  Perhaps now that I am in the sandbox as a civy I will finally finish.


----------



## Renkluaf

These posts are unfortunately and reasonably disheartening, haha. 

I strongly believe if you put in the work you will get hired. 

thanks for all the advice, I have decided to take the course, I am going to try and get "into the system" asap, unfortunately the victim services unit in my city just closed (really unfortunate) and I am going to benefit from this course as much as possible, I mean if anything in policing doesn't open up, I would gladly try to get into MP or Corrections as an alternate. I also have 0 problem relocating to anywhere for a job. 

I mean, does anybody think that this is a bad plan? 

Thanks for the all the insight guys, all the information is appreciated.


----------



## Container

you are not in the system because you are in police foundations. No matter what you learn in the program.

As has been said- police foundations is a cash grab. I have the diploma as well. I moved it over into a degree program- it did zero to assist me in getting hired.

This is the same as the Blueline thread. A bunch of people in the biz say its a waste......and then people keep asking for the answer they are shopping for.


----------



## brihard

Renkluaf said:
			
		

> These posts are unfortunately and reasonably disheartening, haha.
> 
> I strongly believe if you put in the work you will get hired.
> 
> thanks for all the advice, I have decided to take the course, I am going to try and get "into the system" asap, unfortunately the victim services unit in my city just closed (really unfortunate) and I am going to benefit from this course as much as possible, I mean if anything in policing doesn't open up, I would gladly try to get into MP or Corrections as an alternate. I also have 0 problem relocating to anywhere for a job.
> 
> I mean, does anybody think that this is a bad plan?
> 
> Thanks for the all the insight guys, all the information is appreciated.



Yeah man. Respectfully, any plan incorporating police foundations or law and security adminsitration that doe snot culminate with rising through the ranks of a mall/institutional security organization is not a sound plan. If you want to be a cop there's been a bunch of good advice offered already.

Victim services is far from the only thing out there. See if there's a boys and girls club affiliated with your local police force, or any other community programs- police are often big into that. Look at any youth diversion programs. There may be cadet or auxillary programs for police forces present in your area. And there are a broad range of services working with the vulnerable sector who always need dedicated volunteers.

'Into the system' doesn't need to mean being formally tied to a police force. There is a lot out there that's of great value. And there's always opportunities in policing, especially if you're willing to relocate (Calgary, Edmonton), but you need to be very competitive. Police foundations simply will not contribute more than negligibly to that competitiveness.

Here's the Police Foundations thread at Blueline. There's nothing need be added to what experienced officers there have already said. Choose to take them at face value or not. http://forums.blueline.ca/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=28831


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## RCDtpr

Renkluaf said:
			
		

> These posts are unfortunately and reasonably disheartening, haha.
> 
> I strongly believe if you put in the work you will get hired.
> 
> thanks for all the advice, I have decided to take the course, I am going to try and get "into the system" asap, unfortunately the victim services unit in my city just closed (really unfortunate) and I am going to benefit from this course as much as possible, I mean if anything in policing doesn't open up, I would gladly try to get into MP or Corrections as an alternate. I also have 0 problem relocating to anywhere for a job.
> 
> I mean, does anybody think that this is a bad plan?
> 
> Thanks for the all the insight guys, all the information is appreciated.



The mps are just as competitive to get into as civvie police.  I don't know why people have this notion that the mps are somehow easier to get on with.

Cold hard facts are this.....the mps for this fiscal year had 8 spots for external hires and received over 900 applications.


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## Dissident

And I'll mention again that reserve MPs are recruiting. My platoon has ~20 positions to fill and we are doing better manpower wise than the rest of the LFWA PRes MP platoon and probably one of the better ones across Canada. In a time of fiscal restraint where positions are difficult to get, the reserve MPs are actively looking to hire/recruit.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/107314.0.html


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## Container

NinerSix said:
			
		

> And I'll mention again that reserve MPs are recruiting. My platoon has ~20 positions to fill and we are doing better manpower wise than the rest of the LFWA PRes MP platoon and probably one of the better ones across Canada. In a time of fiscal restraint where positions are difficult to get, the reserve MPs are actively looking to hire/recruit.
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/107314.0.html



It is unfortunate that RCMP members are excluded. Oh well!


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## Dissident

I'm pretty sure that changed recently. As it is I have two good troops who are Auxiliaries with the RCMP. Post the question in the thread I linked and let ResMP do the leg work...


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