# Survey on Future Remembrance Ceremonies



## dangerboy (23 Jun 2021)

Veteran Affairs Canada is looking for input on how we conduct Remembrance Day. They have a survey asking questions as they want to change the traditional service. Here is a link to the survey, please provide your vital input.

The future of remembrance in Canada


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## Kilted (23 Jun 2021)

Not everything needs to be changed for the sake of being changed.


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## dangerboy (23 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> Not everything needs to be changed for the sake of being changed.


I agree and it sounds like they want to combine Remembrance Day, which is to honour the fallen with Armed Forces Day whose purpose is to honour those serving, and throw in Peacekeeping  Day.


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## stoker dave (23 Jun 2021)

Thanks, dangerboy.  I think this survey is important.  Please share widely.


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## Remius (23 Jun 2021)

I filled out the survey.   In particular about the Cold War service.


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## Infanteer (23 Jun 2021)

Good pick up DB.  I submitted my response.

1.  Remembrance Day isn't about Veterans, its about those who were killed in the service of their country, so don't make it about veterans.  It doesn't need to be about those who served in Germany or those who were on a Peacekeeping Mission because that's not the point of le jour du souvenir.
2.  Too many wreaths - the Legion's tired old programme takes so long because every Shriner, MLA, and great-grand-niece of some Veteran has to go lay a wreath.  Put two or three up by suitable representatives and leave it at that.  I feel like 75% of my time at a Remembrance Day ceremony is watching random people go put a wreath up on a cenotaph.


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## dapaterson (23 Jun 2021)

Were you looking over my shoulder?


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## Infanteer (23 Jun 2021)

Yes, do you see me?  Creepy, eh!


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## dapaterson (23 Jun 2021)

My closing comment of "Cut the VAC commemoration budget and put the money into solving the claims backlog" will not make me many friends in Charlottetown...


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## SeaKingTacco (23 Jun 2021)

I missed commenting on ”wreathapolluza”, but did forcefully make the point it is about the dead, not the living.


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## Underway (23 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> I missed commenting on ”wreathapolluza”, but did forcefully make the point it is about the dead, not the living.


But, but but... I want to flagellate myself in front of the masses to virtue signal my support to the cause.


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## mariomike (23 Jun 2021)

Infanteer said:


> Remembrance Day isn't about Veterans, its about those who were killed in the service of their country, so don't make it about veterans.


That is the way it was taught to us in public school in the 1960's. 

Back then, Canada still had many, many, Silver Cross Mothers. 









						Grief’s geography: Mapping 6,160 Torontonians killed in three wars - Toronto | Globalnews.ca
					

Using data from card files and archives, Global News plotted Torontonian war casualties from World War One, World War Two and the Korean war.




					globalnews.ca
				




I remember my grandmother wore her Silver Cross to church. And she was younger than I am now.




> They have a survey asking questions as they want to change the traditional service.



Good luck with that.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Jun 2021)

Infanteer said:


> Good pick up DB.  I submitted my response.
> 
> 1.  Remembrance Day isn't about Veterans, its about those who were killed in the service of their country, so don't make it about veterans.  It doesn't need to be about those who served in Germany or those who were on a Peacekeeping Mission because that's not the point of le jour du souvenir.
> 2.  Too many wreaths - the Legion's tired old programme takes so long because every Shriner, MLA, and great-grand-niece of some Veteran has to go lay a wreath.  Put two or three up by suitable representatives and leave it at that.  I feel like 75% of my time at a Remembrance Day ceremony is watching random people go put a wreath up on a cenotaph.










I continue to rail against the self-promotional behaviour of some groups on Remembrance Day, who tend to use the piles of dead (mostly) Infantry from (mainly) WW1 as a pulpit.


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## kratz (23 Jun 2021)

I found about one-third of the questions were leading in one direction. 

After the non-political answers to the RCN's rank change survey, I'm surprised VAC opted to bother with a survey if they already have their mind made up.


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## Good2Golf (23 Jun 2021)

Yup, keep them separate.


> I think the focus of Remembrance Day should remain to remember those killed or injured in service (to include those lost to suicide from PTSD from service).  There is already a separate day for appreciation of serving and past serving CAF members, and to revise Remembrance Day to include living current and past service members would be to dilute the important message of November 11 - it is to remember past sacrifice, not to try and make ourselves feels good about what the CAF did, or does throughout the spectrum of operations today.


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## dangerboy (23 Jun 2021)

I think you are correct that they already have a plan and shaped the survey to try and get the answers they want to support their idea.


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## rmc_wannabe (23 Jun 2021)

added my two cents:



> I have served in Afghanistan on Combat Operations, I have served in the Sinai on Peace Support operations, I served as in support of humanitarian efforts in Lebanon, and I served in Eastern Europe as part of the NATO Assurance efforts against Russia. I have a good breadth of experience when I say this:
> 
> Please for the love of god stick to honouring our war dead. Peacekeeping is a noble effort. NATO deterrence missions and the warm and fuzzy things we do around the world and at home are of note, however, use Peacekeeper's Day and Armed Forces Day to highlight those efforts. Remembrance Day is solemn and commemorates the loss of life in conflicts by those called to the service of their nation. I have buried friends and comrades who have died in Afghanistan; I would be livid if they turned the focus of Remembrance Day annually to highlight Op DANACA 1973-? because it was "their turn"


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## Underway (23 Jun 2021)

I have two opinions or takes on Remembrance Day that is perhaps different from others.  I tried to make them clear in the survey.

1)  Remembrance day isn't necessarily about the dead.  It's about sacrifice.  Actually, the dead's sacrifice may have been the easiest in many cases.  Sacrifice comes from the families who have to go on.  The kids with no parent. The wounded in mind and body who are still suffering, and the families who bear the financial, mental, and physical strain of caring for them or in many cases can't, thus destroying that family.  The mental damage to the kids with a parent in a war zone.  Focus on the sacrifice.

2)  Remembrance Day is about taking responsibility for your decisions.  It's no surprise that people run away from responsibility.  It's always happened and it always will.   When a government takes the hard decision to send troops into harm's way, they are making that decision on behalf of the voters.  The voters, in a democracy, are essentially responsible for that decision.  This means the people of Canada are responsible for the results of sending troops into harm's way.  We asked our fellow Canadians to do something for us.  We need to acknowledge that.

Remembrance Day is the only day of the year, we Canadians, collectively take responsibility for our decisions.  We acknowledge and recognize that in an act of mourning.  Who takes responsibility for the dead and the suffering?  We do.  All of us.


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## mariomike (23 Jun 2021)

> I think the focus of Remembrance Day should remain to remember those killed or injured in service (to include those lost to suicide from PTSD from service).





> Remembrance day isn't necessarily about the dead.



Is that what they are teaching in school now?

From what I recall as a school-boy ( long ago ) it was pretty simple. To remember CAF members who died in war.


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## dimsum (23 Jun 2021)

I basically said "copy what the Aussies and Kiwis do for communication efforts for ANZAC Day".  Obviously we don't need to copy the services, but ANZAC Day is firmly ingrained in their national psyches.


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## FSTO (23 Jun 2021)

kratz said:


> I found about one-third of the questions were leading in one direction.
> 
> After the non-political answers to the RCN's rank change survey, I'm surprised VAC opted to bother with a survey if they already have their mind made up.


I’ll be forever annoyed at that farce of a survey.


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Jun 2021)

dapaterson said:


> My closing comment of "Cut the VAC commemoration budget and put the money into solving the claims backlog" will not make me many friends in Charlottetown...


That was my reply also


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## Underway (23 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> Is that what they are teaching in school now?
> 
> From what I recall as a school-boy ( long ago ) it was pretty simple. To remember CAF members who died in war.


No and yes.  Only the youngest of kids are taught this, which is the most straightforward interpretation of Remembrance Day.  I've spoken to those kids at their schools to give some context.  Older children and high schoolers have more complex opinions and emotions.  Given that Remembrance Day means different things to different people when they are older they should be allowed to explore those thoughts.  My kids have a more complicated relationship with Remembrance Day than I ever did.  They remember when dad was in a war zone.  It's personal to them.

IMHO Remembrance Day shouldn't be proscriptive, it should be reflection, healing, exploration, and education.  It should mean different things to different people.  That's what makes it personal and valuable.


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## Remius (23 Jun 2021)

So the survey wasn’t just about Remembrance Day.  It was about remembrance as a whole.


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## Remius (23 Jun 2021)

Can we change the title of this thread as it is misleading.


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## kratz (23 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> Can we change the title of this thread as it is misleading.



Changed.


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## mariomike (23 Jun 2021)

Underway said:


> Given that Remembrance Day means different things to different people when they are older they should be allowed to explore those thoughts.


Which also leads to this question,









						Remembrance Day:  National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged)
					

Arbor Memorial video.  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=remembrance+day+video&&view=detail&mid=4B3D110C8E984DF4DFE44B3D110C8E984DF4DFE4&&FORM=VDRVSR




					army.ca


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Jun 2021)

Done, also sent the link out to all my Cadet families as well.


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## Loachman (24 Jun 2021)

Underway said:


> I have two opinions or takes on Remembrance Day that is perhaps different from others.  I tried to make them clear in the survey.
> 
> 1)  Remembrance day isn't necessarily about the dead.  It's about sacrifice.  Actually, the dead's sacrifice may have been the easiest in many cases.  Sacrifice comes from the families who have to go on.  The kids with no parent. The wounded in mind and body who are still suffering, and the families who bear the financial, mental, and physical strain of caring for them or in many cases can't, thus destroying that family.  The mental damage to the kids with a parent in a war zone.  Focus on the sacrifice.
> 
> ...



No.

It is to *remember* those who *died* in wars and conflicts.

Dilution is unjustifiable, inexcusable, and wrong, wrong, wrong.


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## Underway (24 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> No.
> 
> It is to *remember* those who *died* in wars and conflicts.
> 
> Dilution is unjustifiable, inexcusable, and wrong, wrong, wrong.


No.  Trying to codify this so rigidly is wrong.  Doctrinally trying to enforce how I deal with something as personal as this is well, intrusive.  It runs contrary to the entire point of the sacrifice. Many of them died so_* I can choose*_ instead of having choices forced upon me by others.  You experience Remembrance Day your way, I'll experience it mine.  It doesn't invalidate either approach. Either way, we'll end up at the same place.  Heads bowed in respect, in quiet reflection with a poppy on to show that respect.  And then at the Legion, for a pint to swap stories.


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## Loachman (24 Jun 2021)

It has long been codified.

Remembrance Day - Wikipedia

Remembrance Day (sometimes known informally as Poppy Day owing to the tradition of the remembrance poppy) is a memorial day observed in Commonwealth member states. Remembrance Day has been observed since the end of the First World War to *remember armed forces members who have died in the line of duty*.

Importance of Remembrance

Importance of Remembrance

Canadians often associate The Royal Canadian Legion with Remembrance ceremonies and events. Through these initiatives, *we honour and remember Canada’s fallen Veterans* and help ensure Canadians never forget.

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/history/a-day-of-remembrance/why

Why Remember?

We must remember. If we do not, the sacrifice of those one hundred thousand Canadian lives will be meaningless. *They died for us*, for their homes and families and friends, for a collection of traditions they cherished and a future they believed in; they died for Canada. The meaning of their sacrifice rests with our collective national consciousness; our future is their monument.1

Remembrance - Remembrance Day | Canada and the First World War

Remembrance Day rejuvenated interest in recalling the war and military sacrifice, attracting thousands to ceremonies in cities large and small across the country. It remained *a day to honour the fallen*, but traditional services also witnessed occasional calls to remember the horror of war and to embrace peace.

I have no objection to you doing whatever else you want to do, but the historical and official purpose of Remembrance Day is to *honour our war dead*.

Anything else that a government body or other random committee seeks to do to dilute that or combine it with something else is *extremely disrespectful* to their memory.

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
*Between the crosses*, row on row,
    That mark our place; and in the sky
    The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

*We are the Dead*. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
    Loved and were loved, and _*now we lie,*_
*        In Flanders fields*.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
    The torch; be yours to hold it high.
*If ye break faith with us who die*
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
        In Flanders fields.


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Jun 2021)

How the government and veterans organisations deal with Remembrance day, is something to be careful with and lean to Loachmans view, but how individuals and families deal with it is personal and flexible as Underway mentions, being respectful is all that is asked.


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## mariomike (24 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> I have no objection to you doing whatever else you want to do, but the historical and official purpose of Remembrance Day is to *honour our war dead*.


"All gave some. Some gave all."


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## SupersonicMax (25 Jun 2021)

Loachman said:


> No.
> 
> It is to *remember* those who *died* in wars and conflicts.
> 
> Dilution is unjustifiable, inexcusable, and wrong, wrong, wrong.


Actually, according to the VAC site, “[e]very year on November 11, Canadians pause in a moment of silence to honour and remember the men and women who _have served_, and _continue to serve Canada_ during times of war, conflict and peace. We remember the more than 2,300,000 Canadians who have served throughout our nation’s history and the more than 118,000 who made the ultimate sacrifice.”

In a similar vein, the legion site mentions “Remembrance Day is a day for all Canadians to remember the men and women who served and sacrificed for our country. It is a day we encourage every individual, young and old, to pause, to give thanks and to remember,” although it also says “every year, at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, we gather in memorial parks, community halls, workplaces, schools and homes to stand in honour of all who have fallen.”

It is not clear to me that we would dilute the intent of Remembrance Day by putting more emphasis on all people who served/are serving.


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## daftandbarmy (25 Jun 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Actually, according to the VAC site, “[e]very year on November 11, Canadians pause in a moment of silence to honour and remember the men and women who _have served_, and _continue to serve Canada_ during times of war, conflict and peace. We remember the more than 2,300,000 Canadians who have served throughout our nation’s history and the more than 118,000 who made the ultimate sacrifice.”
> 
> In a similar vein, the legion site mentions “Remembrance Day is a day for all Canadians to remember the men and women who served and sacrificed for our country. It is a day we encourage every individual, young and old, to pause, to give thanks and to remember,” although it also says “every year, at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, we gather in memorial parks, community halls, workplaces, schools and homes to stand in honour of all who have fallen.”
> 
> It is not clear to me that we would dilute the intent of Remembrance Day by putting more emphasis on* all people who served/are serving*.



Sounds a little too 'self-serving' for my liking, at various levels


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## Kilted (25 Jun 2021)

Ultimately the individual Legions are going to do whatever they want.  Normally that's doing things the way they have always done them.  I've been on a cenotaph guard for a few different Remembrance Day services and I've seen (well more realistically heard) things done different ways in regards to wreaths. In one location they read out the name of every single organization/business/family that laid a wreath.  The other location laid the wreaths while reading the names of the dead, which went much faster.  Then the hard part afterwards is trying to march off the cenotaph without knocking over/stepping on the wreaths. The fact that no one tried to hang them off parts of our uniforms is a miracle.


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## SeaKingTacco (25 Jun 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Actually, according to the VAC site, “[e]very year on November 11, Canadians pause in a moment of silence to honour and remember the men and women who _have served_, and _continue to serve Canada_ during times of war, conflict and peace. We remember the more than 2,300,000 Canadians who have served throughout our nation’s history and the more than 118,000 who made the ultimate sacrifice.”
> 
> In a similar vein, the legion site mentions “Remembrance Day is a day for all Canadians to remember the men and women who served and sacrificed for our country. It is a day we encourage every individual, young and old, to pause, to give thanks and to remember,” although it also says “every year, at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, we gather in memorial parks, community halls, workplaces, schools and homes to stand in honour of all who have fallen.”
> 
> It is not clear to me that we would dilute the intent of Remembrance Day by putting more emphasis on all people who served/are serving.


That maybe what the VAC and the Legion want Remembrance Day to be, but, historically it is not true.

Obviously, Remembrance Day is about people, because people served and people died. It should be a day for reflection and I prefer to reflect on those who did not come home.


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## stoker dave (25 Jun 2021)

I also used the survey as an opportunity to suggest that the Royal Canadian Legion's monopoly on the use of the poppy symbol should be reviewed.


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## Blackadder1916 (25 Jun 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> That maybe what the VAC and the Legion want *Remembrance* Day to be, but, *historically* it is not true.
> 
> Obviously, Remembrance Day is about people, because people served and people died. It should be a day for reflection and I prefer to reflect on those who did not come home.



Those who fail to remember history are doomed to change it to suit their narrative.  Pardon my butchering of an oft repeated maxim.

I remember the day as "Armistice Day" though the official name changed, depending on what source you use, either before or after the Second World War.  However, at least in Newfoundland, it was still called Armistice Day in the year of my birth.



And how did The Canadian Press characterize the purpose of the day in 1955?



But being Newfoundlanders, we have to be different and have another day on which we also honour our war dead.  Next week, on the day that the rest of Canada holds a birthday party (or will/would depending on public health restrictions), Newfoundland will take a moment to remember those who gave their lives in service of King and Empire, or Queen and Country, or in the service of peace.  Come Memorial Day I'll have a thought about those I've known and served with and who are no longer with us, as well as those I've never known but didn't get home.  I recently came across an interesting bit of trivia.  Of the seventeen (17) soldiers (all gunners of 2 RCHA) who died in the Canoe River train crash on 21 Nov 50, five (5) were Newfoundlanders.  A significant contribution from a province that had only joined Canada the previous year.


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## Loachman (25 Jun 2021)

stoker dave said:


> I also used the survey as an opportunity to suggest that the Royal Canadian Legion's monopoly on the use of the poppy symbol should be reviewed.



I believe that they only hold copyright over their particular depiction. A small number of people in Canada have used the British poppy in defiance.


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## Furniture (28 Jun 2021)

I'm in agreement with Underway on this one, Remembrance Day is a personal day of reflection. I think the ceremonies should stick to honouring the dead, but the day as a whole is about more than that. 

I think most of us here have a personal connection to either family, friends, or co-workers who have died in service to Canada, so remembering their sacrifices will always be paramount for us. The average Canadian is quickly reaching a point where they have no connection to anyone that served, or died for Canada.  My generation (millennials) are the last generation to grow up with grandparents who served in WWII, I remember sitting on my grandfather's knee hearing stories about his time in Europe, and about his brother who died in Italy in '44. In my experience Remembrance day has mostly focused on WWI(the tragic war), WWII(the good war), Korea (the "war?"), and Afghanistan(the recent war). Only 40K of us served in Afghanistan, and the veterans/family of veterans from the other wars are quickly fading. If we stick to only remembering the war dead we risk losing connection with Canadians. If we shift the remembrance marketing/events outside of the ceremony on the 11th to include not just the dead, but those that served, we might be able to make it more relevant to Canadians in the future, when the the "war veterans" are all gone.


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## tonykeene (28 Jun 2021)

dangerboy said:


> Veteran Affairs Canada is looking for input on how we conduct Remembrance Day. They have a survey asking questions as they want to change the traditional service. Here is a link to the survey, please provide your vital input.
> 
> The future of remembrance in Canada


This is a good idea and I plan to respond.  However, the main problem is that VAC does not control Remembrance Day, the Royal Canadian Legion does.  In 90 per cent of Canadian Communities, it is run as a Christian church service.  Where I live it is a full half-hour of prayers, blessings and invocations, hymns, Bible passages and a full-blown sermon.  It isn't about the dead, or veterans.  It is entirely about Jesus Christ.  I believe they do this deliberately, as a kind of invisible dog fence, to keep out people they don't want.  Would be nice if they were all like the one in Ottawa, but they are not in any way close.


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## tonykeene (28 Jun 2021)

I've just completed the survey and I stressed that the day should be secular, in order that all may feel included.  The Legion won't like it, but then again, they don't seem to like much.

During my speaking engagements for Historica Canada I often put forth a scenario in which three people join the CF and end up in the same unit.  When the unit is warned for operations they go out to Wainwright and while undergoing realistic and intense training, a vehicle goes off the road, rolls over, and one of them is killed.

They then go into theatre, and during an operation under fire, a vehicle goes off the road, rolls over, and another of them is killed.

The third member, who witnessed the deaths of the other two, comes home and after six months of nightmares shoots himself.

I really can't see any difference in the loss, the pain, and the grief.  

Thoughts?


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## Remius (28 Jun 2021)

tonykeene said:


> This is a good idea and I plan to respond.  However, the main problem is that VAC does not control Remembrance Day, the Royal Canadian Legion does.  In 90 per cent of Canadian Communities, it is run as a Christian church service.  Where I live it is a full half-hour of prayers, blessings and invocations, hymns, Bible passages and a full-blown sermon.  It isn't about the dead, or veterans.  It is entirely about Jesus Christ.  I believe they do this deliberately, as a kind of invisible dog fence, to keep out people they don't want.  Would be nice if they were all like the one in Ottawa, but they are not in any way close.


Is that an an actual fact?  That in 90 percent of communities these are run as Christian services?  Legit question.  

Would it not make sense though if the majority of communities conducting Remembrance Day ceremonies or services are actually strongly Christian in population make up?

where do you live if you don’t mind me asking?


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## dimsum (28 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> Would it not make sense though if the majority of communities conducting Remembrance Day ceremonies or services are actually strongly Christian in population make up?


You're probably right, but the RCL isn't specifically a Christian organization.  So, there is no need for their services to have a Christian aspect to it.


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## tonykeene (28 Jun 2021)

Remius said:


> Is that an an actual fact?  That in 90 percent of communities these are run as Christian services?  Legit question.
> 
> Would it not make sense though if the majority of communities conducting Remembrance Day ceremonies or services are actually strongly Christian in population make up?
> 
> where do you live if you don’t mind me asking?


I live in a small rural community in south central Ontario, between two medium-sized cities.  The Legion in both has a lock on all commemorative events such as RD, Battle of Britain etc and they all consist of a endless program of prayer, blessings, invoations and Bible readings, often with a benediction at the end.  In one of these cities, RD resembles a good old southern tent revival.  The Legion chaplains would look good in expensive three-piece white suits with pinkie rings.  In 2017 I was on parade for 25 minutes for the 100th anniversary of Vimy Ridge.  The only person who mentioned Vimy was the MPP; everyone else talked about Jesus.


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## Good2Golf (28 Jun 2021)

tonykeene said:


> I live in a small rural community in south central Ontario, between two medium-sized cities.  The Legion in both has a lock on all commemorative events such as RD, *Battle of Britain *etc and they all consist of a endless program of prayer, blessings, invoations and Bible readings, often with a benediction at the end.


I assume that there is not an RCAF Association Wing in your community, then?  RCAFA BoB ceremonies are, for what you have described in your community, notably less religiously flavoured.


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## tonykeene (28 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> You're probably right, but the RCL isn't specifically a Christian organization.  So, there is no need for their services to have a Christian aspect to it.


This is the problem, actually.  The Legion consists of about 240,000 people, only a relative handful of whom have any Canadian Forces service.  The average member is a blue-collar white male, high school grad and social conservative.  They only know one way to run things, and that is with opening prayers and so on.  I was a member of a small city Legion for 20 years, and quit after failing to even move them off square one on this.  In fact, my requests for inclusivity was often met with the piling on of even more, to put me in my place.  The end came in 2004, after I returned from my fourth operational deployment.  I had asked for the Grace at the annual veterans dinner to be more inclusive, and the past-president (all 275 pounds or more of her) stuck her finger in my medals (I was in scarlet mess dress) and said: "If you don't like the way we do things, you can wit in the hall until we're finished."  So I went out into the hall, down the stairs and out the door.  And I'm not going back.


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## Blackadder1916 (28 Jun 2021)

While tonykeene may be overstating the percentage of ceremonies that turn into full blown religious services (but perhaps not by much), if one did a look through of the RCL's Ritual, Awards and Protocol Manual, you would find in their ceremonial protocols a liberal sprinkling of prayers, hymns, benedictions, blessings, graces, scripture readings and invocations.  To be honest, they do make the suggestion that a divine service "should" be ecumenical.

Even the VAC suggestion has a strong hint of religion.


			https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/people-and-stories/get-involved/guide-to-commemorative-services
		



> A Suggested Service of Remembrance
> 
> Opening Remarks
> Poems
> ...


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## tonykeene (28 Jun 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> I assume that there is not an RCAF Association Wing in your community, then?  RCAFA BoB ceremonies are, for what you have described in your community, notably less religiously flavoured.


Essentially RCAFA here has collapsed.  The Legion runs everything; they include CAVUNP but those guys are just as white and out of sight as the Legion.


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## tonykeene (28 Jun 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> While tonykeene may be overstating the percentage of ceremonies that turn into full blown religious services (but perhaps not by much), if one did a look through of the RCL's Ritual, Awards and Protocol Manual, you would find in their ceremonial protocols a liberal sprinkling of prayers, hymns, benedictions, blessings, graces, scripture readings and invocations.  To be honest, they do make the suggestion that a divine service "should" be ecumenical.
> 
> Even the VAC suggestion has a strong hint of religion.
> 
> ...


That's interesting.  In 2015 the Surpeme Court of Canada ruled in the Saguenay case that government (all levels) in Canada must remain neutral on the subject of religion.  This means government cannot conduct religion, promote it, or even suggest it, and all government functions and services must be completely secular.  This is resulting in a slow but steady change in military ceremonies such as Colours etc, and recently I believe the Army Commander ordered an end to regimental church parades.  I wonder if the Saguenay decision might mean VAC shouldn't even be putting this format out there.


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## daftandbarmy (28 Jun 2021)

tonykeene said:


> This is the problem, actually.  The Legion consists of about 240,000 people, only a relative handful of whom have any Canadian Forces service.  The average member is a blue-collar white male, high school grad and social conservative.  They only know one way to run things, and that is with opening prayers and so on.  I was a member of a small city Legion for 20 years, and quit after failing to even move them off square one on this.  In fact, my requests for inclusivity was often met with the piling on of even more, to put me in my place.  The end came in 2004, after I returned from my fourth operational deployment.  I had asked for the Grace at the annual veterans dinner to be more inclusive, and the past-president (all 275 pounds or more of her) stuck her finger in my medals (I was in scarlet mess dress) and said: "If you don't like the way we do things, you can wit in the hall until we're finished."  So I went out into the hall, down the stairs and out the door.  And I'm not going back.


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## Weinie (28 Jun 2021)

tonykeene said:


> That's interesting.  In 2015 the Surpeme Court of Canada ruled in the Saguenay case that government (all levels) in Canada must remain neutral on the subject of religion.  This means government cannot conduct religion, promote it, or even suggest it, and all government functions and services must be completely secular.  This is resulting in a slow but steady change in military ceremonies such as Colours etc, and recently I believe the Army Commander ordered an end to regimental church parades.  I wonder if the Saguenay decision might mean VAC shouldn't even be putting this format out there.


Did that include smudging/tobacco burning ceremonies, or was that considered a third rail? 🍿


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## mariomike (28 Jun 2021)

> Every year, at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, we gather in memorial parks, community halls, workplaces, schools and homes to stand in honour of all who have fallen.



No one gathered in our workplace. That's for sure. It was a day off with pay for the office staff. 
I think most gathered at the mall to get a start on their Christmas shopping. 

For those of us on operations, we wore our poppies. But, the hits kept on coming, and there were no gatherings.



> If the employee works on the actual holiday the employee will be paid two (2) times his regular rate of pay for the time so worked and in addition shall be paid for the full day or night at his regular rate of pay.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Jun 2021)

Here in North Van , there is a "Veteran Council" that plans Remembrance day, yes the legion runs it and thee is one prayer in the whole time, but a lot is about the sacrifice involved. The big topic has been to make it more inclusive to Korean and Afghanistan vets. We have a speech by Cadets, the French Consulate and several others. The other big issues are who is in front of who.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> Did that include smudging/tobacco burning ceremonies, or was that considered a third rail? 🍿


LOL, every consultation meeting generally starts with a prayer. Really funny at a big meeting with about 60 people and some of are more senior people and they ask the chief to do a prayer, so he does a full on Christian one and I enjoyed watching my management squirm. they are so hypocritical it's not funny.


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## dimsum (28 Jun 2021)

Weinie said:


> Did that include smudging/tobacco burning ceremonies, or was that considered a third rail? 🍿


Honest question - aren't they more "cultural" vice "religious" ceremonies though?


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## tonykeene (28 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> Honest question - aren't they more "cultural" vice "religious" ceremonies though?


The point is not whether they are religious or cultural.  The court decision does not ban any ceremonies; it simply says government doesn't do them.  COs and chaplains are supposed to assist members in holding such ceremonies, but don't run them under command authority any more.  Theoretically personnel should not be coerced into attending, but we all know the guys with the pacesticks don't always understand.
In other words "soldier driven" is OK; "command driven" is not.


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## tonykeene (28 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> You're probably right, but the RCL isn't specifically a Christian organization.  So, there is no need for their services to have a Christian aspect to it.


Again, religion isn't determined by the majority.  It's determined by the individual.  A Sikh in Kamloops is still a Sikh in Restigouche.


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## Weinie (28 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> Honest question - aren't they more "cultural" vice "religious" ceremonies though?


I don't know. 

When I google it I get several responses.

One from "Smudging Meaning and Ceremony: Spiritual Cleansing | Gaia states:

As the smudging ceremony is practiced, the smoke rises and so do *the prayers to mother earth, father sky,* to the sun and the moon, to the plants, the animals and the water. The burning of the sacred plants- sage, cedar, sweetgrass and palo santo- to name a few, *support the connection to the sacred realms between the earth and spirit.* Through this connect to spirit the smoke bath lifts negative feelings and energy and creates an opening for prayers and intentions to be heard, therefore bringing positive intention into practice.

I guess you pick the name of your "gods' or who you worship/pray to based on your own particular cultural slant on what constitutes religion/faith within your group. I am interested in whether the SC decision above addressed this, and if they rendered a decision, why.


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## Kilted (28 Jun 2021)

tonykeene said:


> The point is not whether they are religious or cultural.  The court decision does not ban any ceremonies; it simply says government doesn't do them.  COs and chaplains are supposed to assist members in holding such ceremonies, but don't run them under command authority any more.  Theoretically personnel should not be coerced into attending, but we all know the guys with the pacesticks don't always understand.
> In other words "soldier driven" is OK; "command driven" is not.


I wonder if we may start seeing Regimental Colours handed over to Regimental Associations, who in turn entrust them to the Regimental Churches. 

Or perhaps we might see some sets of colours get "stolen" and magically appear in Regimental Churches.


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## tonykeene (28 Jun 2021)

As a journalist, soldier and veteran I have been tracking the Legion for several decades.  Here are some of the things I've discovered:

The Legion has about 240,000 members, and has been losing about 10,000 members every year, for the past 30 years, or even longer.

The Ordinary membership, which includes veterans, totals about 50,000.  However, many of these are police (The Legion is a natural cop hangout; they can go there and party without running into anyone they've run in, if you get my meaning.) Coast Guard, foreign military and so on.  It is statistically likely that only about 30,000 of these members have Canadian military service.  Remember our Coast Guard is not an armed service.

The Legion is overwhelmingly white, and male.  The average member is a blue-collar white guy with no post-secondary education.

The Legion maintains, in the third decade of the 21st Century, something called a "Ladies Auxiliary."  This should make any female CF member squirm, and no doubt does.

Over the past four decades the Legion has been involved in an ever-increasing number of racist and intolerant incidents, well documented in the media, including a branch that allied itself with a skinhead group called The Warriors of Odin, and a branch that mocked and insulted Sikh men who were taking part in a billiards event.  These incidents involve Blacks, Sikh, Native people and gays.

In Campbellford, Ont. a Halloween contest was won by a guy in Klan robes towing an Al Jolson lookalike on a rope.  The branch president was chief judge.  I'm not making this up.

A Legion branch newsletter a few years ago contained a brutal racist "joke" about Native people, and in B.C. a decorated Sikh veteran ( a retired lieutenant-colonel) was denied entry to a Branch because he wouldn't take off his turban.

The Legion bitterly opposed the introduction of the Sikh turban into the RCMP and CF uniform.

The Legion embraced the former government's decision to strip veterans of their lifetime commitment to care.  To quote the president:

"It must be understood that this is something we (the Legion) can get behind.  We want this legislation."

She might as well have picked up a set of pompoms and gone "Sis, Boom, Bah!"

None of this of course detracts from the fact that the Legion provides invaluable service to veterans.  I am a recipient of this and will be forever grateful.

But nonetheless a loss of 10,000 members per annum means a loss of about $500,000 each year in membership dues alone, not to mention the loss of the people themselves.  The Legion will probably wink out of existence in fewer than 20 years.  As Thomas Andrews said to Capt. Smith:  "It's a mathematical certainly.  She will founder."

The numbers are as inexorable as they are irrefutable.

This means that the 700,000 former CF members in this country (and more to come) will no longer have anyone to intercede for them with VAC.

Then what?


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## dapaterson (28 Jun 2021)

I'll risk pre-empting @mariomike, but there's a lengthy thread on the legion at:









						Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?
					

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.   Missing funds close P.E.I. legion hall  Last Updated: Monday, April 19, 2010 | 7:29 AM AT CBC News   Article Link   A Royal Canadian Legion hall on P.E.I.'s North Shore closed for good Saturday, unable to recover from an...




					army.ca


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## lenaitch (28 Jun 2021)

In terms of Remembrance day, if not the Legion then who?  Government?  Local community committees?   With federal funding or one their own?  At least with the Legion - like them or not - ceremonies take place in thousands of communities across the country, simultaneously, in (roughly) the same format.  If left up to each community, possibly with corporate 'help' and a commitment to why the ceremony is taking place, I can image what some would turn into.  Heck, most would be hard pressed to know basic flag protocols.


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## quadrapiper (28 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> I wonder if we may start seeing Regimental Colours handed over to Regimental Associations, who in turn entrust them to the Regimental Churches.
> 
> Or perhaps we might see some sets of colours get "stolen" and magically appear in Regimental Churches.


Hope retired Colours start finding their way into local municipal buildings, library main branches, arenas, etc. For that matter, unless a given church is entirely and absolutely on board with CAF values re: equality, etc., pull any laid-up Colours from their facilities.


tonykeene said:


> The Legion maintains, in the third decade of the 21st Century, something called a "Ladies Auxiliary."  This should make any female CF member squirm, and no doubt does.


I thought the LA had died out. In some ways it's the most peculiar on the list: most of the rest's whack-a-mole local bigotry, where the LA is something the RCL could simply stand down.


lenaitch said:


> In terms of Remembrance day, if not the Legion then who?  Government?  Local community committees?   With federal funding or one their own?  At least with the Legion - like them or not - ceremonies take place in thousands of communities across the country, simultaneously, in (roughly) the same format.  If left up to each community, possibly with corporate 'help' and a commitment to why the ceremony is taking place, I can image what some would turn into.  Heck, most would be hard pressed to know basic flag protocols.


Off the top of my head, the only outfit as geographically pervasive as the RCL is cadet corps/squadrons. Not terribly useful for some aspects (really not enough pay to cover off dealing with permits, police, wreaths, PA, etc.), though for others, they're already pretty well embedded (sentries, flag party either wholly or in part, band, etc.) in rural areas. Biggest ceremonial hassle would likely be (if a non-Legion option were chosen) the bunfight over parade commander and to a lesser extent MC. Veteran? If so, then who? CAF member? If so, then senior locally resident (which'll mean CIC in a lot of places), or selected in some other way?

Community organized means probably ending up with local politicians getting a speaking part.

Entirely agreed on getting rid of the religious aspect at the cenotaph: if someone wants to host a service earlier in the day, whether single or multifaith, go for it. The Silence serves quite well enough for whatever form of reflection and connection with the infinite each person attending might prefer.


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## Kilted (28 Jun 2021)

quadrapiper said:


> I thought the LA had died out. In some ways it's the most peculiar on the list: most of the rest's whack-a-mole local bigotry, where the LA is something the RCL could simply stand down.


Most Legion's couldn't survive without the LA.  They put in a lot of work behind the scenes.  My unit (including female members) have a good relationship with them.  It should be noted that women can be members of the Legion without being members of the LA.


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## Good2Golf (28 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> Most Legion's couldn't survive without the LA.  They put in a lot of work behind the scenes.  My unit (including female members) have a good relationship with them.  It should be noted that women can be members of the Legion without being members of the LA.


Can males, or non-binary gendered people be part of the Ladies Auxiliary?


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## Kilted (28 Jun 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Can males, or non-binary gendered people be part of the Ladies Auxiliary?


I'm sure they could.  The Legion is not a government organization, they don't have to bow to every politically correct notion of the day.  It is a good thing that the Legion is responsible for the majority of Remembrance Day services, it is a way to insolate them from the government.  As much as everyone on here hates the Legion, there are a lot of important jobs that they do.  I don't think that the average person would nearly be as knowable about Remembrance Day and in extension the CAF itself.  The Legion is a significant asset.  Maybe people don't like them because they are full of old people, which apparently it isn't politically correct to have been born before 1960 anymore.  It is true that the majority of Legion members have never served, but the Legion couldn't survive without them.  Maybe if everyone who complained about the Legion actually joined their local branch, that ratio would be much different and they could actually express their concerns.


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## Fishbone Jones (29 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> Maybe if everyone who complained about the Legion actually joined their local branch, that ratio would be much different and they could actually express their concerns.


I complain about the Legion, but I'm not a member.........anymore. After 37 years of fighting the old boys club, then the civies that replaced them, I'd  had enough. Toward the end, after switching legions three times because of closures, that was it.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Jun 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Can males, or non-binary gendered people be part of the Ladies Auxiliary?


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## Furniture (29 Jun 2021)

tonykeene said:


> As a journalist, soldier and veteran I have been tracking the Legion for several decades.  Here are some of the things I've discovered:
> 
> The Legion has about 240,000 members, and has been losing about 10,000 members every year, for the past 30 years, or even longer.
> 
> ...


1) That's a pretty broad brush you are painting with. I'm sure the average Legion member who is former/current police is there entirely for the purpose of drug fueled raves with no local "ruffians" present, then add in the local "Coast Guard" and it's essentially a hive of scum and villainy. 

2) The CAF was overwhelmingly white, male, and uneducated... Sorry we don't meet your expectations. Oddly enough, nobody ever said "don't do that tour, you're too white, and lack a university degree". 

3) Find a single organization that hasn't had issues with racism, or intolerant behavior over the last four decades. If that is the bar we are setting, you'd best form a new group every year, as any group made up of tens of thousands of humans will have a$$holes, and bigots. Should we ban the CAF, and government from Remembrance Day for past bigoted/racist/homophobic actions? 

4) Who do you propose to represent us? The government that fights against us? 

I'm not a fan of the RCL, it's a dumpsterfire in it's own fun ways, but your problems with it are either ridiculous, or universal.


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## stoker dave (29 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> Maybe if everyone who complained about the Legion actually joined their local branch, that ratio would be much different and they could actually express their concerns.


I have no interest in joining the local legion branch.  However, if there was ever a committee to review the fundamental operating principles of the RCL, establish a new charter and "re-boot" the organization completely, sign me up now.


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## Edward Campbell (29 Jun 2021)

I'm not going to comment. Some of you know my views all to well and I will not restate them.

I think Remembrance Day is, slowly ~ and not all that gracefully ~ morphing into Veterans' Day. I think that's understandable. There are almost no widows and only a few children of those killed in action in WWII and Korea left alive. There are only a few tens of thousands people touched, very directly, by the few thousand Canadians who have died in operations ~ or as a direct result of the stress of operations ~ in the past 70 years, post Korea. Veterans Affairs Canada and the RCL are veterans organizations, aiming to serve veterans. Those killed in action are not veterans ... they have no voice and the voice of those who remember them is dying out. Maybe it is time for Remembrance Day to "go gentle into that good night" and, as with so many other things, we can become a pale imitation of the USA. 


​
Those who want to remember, privately, can still do so ... November  11th is not the only day you can visit a cenotaph and stop, just for a minute, to consider what might have been for so many.


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## daftandbarmy (29 Jun 2021)

Edward Campbell said:


> I'm not going to comment. Some of you know my views all to well and I will not restate them.
> 
> I think Remembrance Day is, slowly ~ and not all that gracefully ~ morphing into Veterans' Day. I think that's understandable. There are almost no widows and only a few children of those killed in action in WWII and Korea left alive. There are only a few tens of thousands people touched, very directly, by the few thousand Canadians who have died in operations ~ or as a direct result of the stress of operations ~ in the past 70 years, post Korea. Veterans Affairs Canada and the RCL are veterans organizations, aiming to serve veterans. Those killed in action are not veterans ... they have no voice and the voice of those who remember them is dying out. Maybe it is time for Remembrance Day to "go gentle into that good night" and, as with so many other things, we can become a pale imitation of the USA.
> 
> ...



The ceremonies at Vancouver Island cenotaphs are always well attended by the public, and not because everyone wants to see the military march around. Vancouver too, in general.

The Legion runs the Poppy Campaign and that always gets a good response too, IMHO.

I'm pretty sure that the whole R-Day thing will continue here.... despite our best efforts to Eff it up every once in awhile


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## Colin Parkinson (29 Jun 2021)

Yea I think the West Van legion raised about $75,000 from poppy sales just prior to Covid. We just had two local legion donate a decent chunk of money to our Navy League Corp, we were surprised as we had assumed that they would not be able to give the Cadets any funding this year.


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## quadrapiper (29 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The ceremonies at Vancouver Island cenotaphs are always well attended by the public, and not because everyone wants to see the military march around. Vancouver too, in general.
> 
> The Legion runs the Poppy Campaign and that always gets a good response too, IMHO.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the whole R-Day thing will continue here.... despite our best efforts to Eff it up every once in awhile


Agreed on the Island: the Cobble Hill ceremony where I pipe every year has excellent turnout regardless of weather. They're certainly not turning out for the sight of Signals and RCMP troops (IIRC) and a mixed squad of cadets following the flag party and veterans around the corner from the community hall. Same at the other village and town memorials in the Cowichan Valley.


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## Kilted (29 Jun 2021)

Edward Campbell said:


> I'm not going to comment. Some of you know my views all to well and I will not restate them.
> 
> I think Remembrance Day is, slowly ~ and not all that gracefully ~ morphing into Veterans' Day. I think that's understandable. There are almost no widows and only a few children of those killed in action in WWII and Korea left alive. There are only a few tens of thousands people touched, very directly, by the few thousand Canadians who have died in operations ~ or as a direct result of the stress of operations ~ in the past 70 years, post Korea. Veterans Affairs Canada and the RCL are veterans organizations, aiming to serve veterans. Those killed in action are not veterans ... they have no voice and the voice of those who remember them is dying out. Maybe it is time for Remembrance Day to "go gentle into that good night" and, as with so many other things, we can become a pale imitation of the USA.
> 
> ...


And what about the 40,000 who served in Afghanistan?  Remembrance Day isn't meant to just remember those who left people had home. How many did we lose who had no one waiting for them at home? Do they deserve to be remembered any less then the rest. Just because more time has passed dosent mean that we should stop remembering people. 1812 has largely been added to our memory when it comes to Remembrance Day and arguably the American Revolution should be as well. If it was not for those who fought in both wars, there would be no Canada. 
Also, we are going to have more wars in the future, hopefully distant future, but Remembrance Day is for them as well.


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## Edward Campbell (29 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> And what about the 40,000 who served in Afghanistan?  Remembrance Day isn't meant to just remember those who left people had home. How many did we lose who had no one waiting for them at home? Do they deserve to be remembered any less then the rest. Just because more time has passed dosent mean that we should stop remembering people. 1812 has largely been added to our memory when it comes to Remembrance Day and arguably the American Revolution should be as well. If it was not for those who fought in both wars, there would be no Canada.
> Also, we are going to have more wars in the future, hopefully distant future, but Remembrance Day is for them as well.



I hope you're right ... but I'm sensing (guessing, really) that the societal impulses that gave rise to and then sustained Remembrance Day for about a century have changed in ways that mean that the very idea of remembering sacrifice is no longer sustainable. I suspect that one of the reasons that VAC and the RCL want to "repurpose" Remembrance Day into some sort of Veterans" Day is because that's what people ~ our neighbours and friends and even our families ~ want to happen.


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## lenaitch (29 Jun 2021)

quadrapiper said:


> Hope retired Colours start finding their way into local municipal buildings, library main branches, arenas, etc. For that matter, unless a given church is entirely and absolutely on board with CAF values re: equality, etc., pull any laid-up Colours from their facilities.
> 
> I thought the LA had died out. In some ways it's the most peculiar on the list: most of the rest's whack-a-mole local bigotry, where the LA is something the RCL could simply stand down.
> 
> ...



Using the cadets or various private military associations would be limiting for the majority of small scattered rural communities which simply lack any kind of organizing entity let alone one that has some kind of commonality across the country (there are roughly 1400 Legion branches).

As a copper in a small town, the local Branch was a favoured social venue.  Not only was it free of the local numpties that filled ones working day, you could generally relax without being put in a compromising position with criminal activity going on.  The clientele was generally 'pro-establishment' and understood the concept of service.  It also offered basic of decent food (in some cases) and a place to play cards, shoot pool or listen to sometimes questionable entertainment that wasn't a dive bar or a place where you couldn't hear yourself think. 

I can't say I've ever been to a Remembrance Day ceremony that was overly religious.  I actually don't mind the odd prayer or invocation; I'm not from the school that if it doesn't speak to me then it offends me.  I stand quietly and respectfully by while those portions carry on.  Nor do I refuse to attend or stomp out of a wedding or funeral at the mere mention of a deity.   I did lobby once during planning for a conference when a smudge ceremony was proposed.  The organization and event was completely secular (didn't even include an opening prayer), and I felt that the cultural-spiritual link of the aboriginal ceremony was clear.

A lot of cenotaphs have religious symbols on them.  I hope we don't get to the point of demanding that they be removed.

It is clear that many are not enthralled with the RCL, probably for good reason, but it seems that Remembrance Day and the Poppy program are a couple of things they do rather well.


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## quadrapiper (29 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Using the cadets or various private military associations would be limiting for the majority of small scattered rural communities which simply lack any kind of organizing entity let alone one that has some kind of commonality across the country (there are roughly 1400 Legion branches).


I wouldn't be particularly keen on the cadet organization getting tasked with it: was just casting around for the next-best-distributed single organization with a military bent. There's 145 JCR patrols and 1088 cadet corps/squadrons, though some of the latter are doubled or tripled up in a community (Sea/Army/Air), though the same thing might be said for Legion branches in some areas.


lenaitch said:


> I can't say I've ever been to a Remembrance Day ceremony that was overly religious.  I actually don't mind the odd prayer or invocation; I'm not from the school that if it doesn't speak to me then it offends me.  I stand quietly and respectfully by while those portions carry on.  Nor do I refuse to attend or stomp out of a wedding or funeral at the mere mention of a deity.   I did lobby once during planning for a conference when a smudge ceremony was proposed.  The organization and event was completely secular (didn't even include an opening prayer), and I felt that the cultural-spiritual link of the aboriginal ceremony was clear.
> 
> A lot of cenotaphs have religious symbols on them.  I hope we don't get to the point of demanding that they be removed.


Agreed as far as existing memorials with religious symbols. I'm also game, on principle, to do the respectful silence thing; however, I'm not a fan of either a singular religious voice, especially if they're without military or RCL links, _or_ every local officiant having a go at the cenotaph.

You can almost manage the latter if a community has a relatively sparse religious selection: around here, there's Sikhs, Buddhists, IIRC Hindus, a patchwork of First Nations, _and _a comprehensive sampling of Christians, with physical places of worship in the Cowichan Valley, and a few more without. Best to consign that to a separate event.

Actually, as a "displease almost everyone equally" choice, if there _must _be a religious element, let it be a CAF chaplain and/or someone from the local First Nation. Neither available? Strike prayer from the program.


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## lenaitch (29 Jun 2021)

quadrapiper said:


> I wouldn't be particularly keen on the cadet organization getting tasked with it: was just casting around for the next-best-distributed single organization with a military bent. There's 145 JCR patrols and 1088 cadet corps/squadrons, though some of the latter are doubled or tripled up in a community (Sea/Army/Air), though the same thing might be said for Legion branches in some areas.
> 
> Agreed as far as existing memorials with religious symbols. I'm also game, on principle, to do the respectful silence thing; however, I'm not a fan of either a singular religious voice, especially if they're without military or RCL links, _or_ every local officiant having a go at the cenotaph.
> 
> ...



Most of my Remembrance Day experience has been in small town Ontario which are generally pretty white-bread.  In more recent years, they have often included an Aboriginal invocation (since there is no such thing as Aboriginal clergy, it is usually an elder or the chief). I think the community where I most recently attend, the 'religious part' is delivered by the Legion Chaplain, which is fair.

I also enjoyed the recently-late Rabbi Bulka at the National Memorial.  As is often the case with Jewish clergy, it often struck me more a quick philosophical presentation than a sermon.

Like you, I have more issue with the parade of local nabobs who feel compelled to speak, and the parade of wreathes from some of the darndest organizations.  Good for contributing but do it before or after.  November weather here can be crappy and I recall being frozen or wet or both and looking at the vets and figuring if they can do it, so can I, but it's gotta be tough on them standing while somebody drones on or the local Remax agent places a wreath.


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## Weinie (29 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Most of my Remembrance Day experience has been in small town Ontario which are generally pretty white-bread.  In more recent years, they have often included an Aboriginal invocation (since there is no such thing as Aboriginal clergy, it is usually an elder or the chief). I think the community where I most recently attend, the 'religious part' is delivered by the Legion Chaplain, which is fair.
> 
> I also enjoyed the recently-late Rabbi Bulka at the National Memorial.  As is often the case with Jewish clergy, it often struck me more a quick philosophical presentation than a sermon.
> 
> Like you, I have more issue with the parade of local nabobs who feel compelled to speak, and the parade of wreathes from some of the darndest organizations.  Good for contributing but do it before or after.  *November weather here can be crappy and I recall being frozen or wet or both *and looking at the vets and figuring if they can do it, so can I, but it's gotta be tough on them standing while somebody drones on or the local Remax agent places a wreath.


I have tried to inculcate into my two oldest boys (14 and 9) the rationale and understanding why it is important to celebrate Nov 11th. For the last three years, it has been yadda,yadda,yadda at the microphone, followed by an interminable amount of wreath layings; to the point where my second oldest boy said " Who are all these people"? Neither of them expressed any interest in attending again. It really has no relevance to them.

The only thing that has captivated them has been the F-18 flypast, after the national ceremony in downtown Ottawa.


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## dangerboy (28 Jul 2022)

Here is info from Veterans Affairs on the survey that they did. The future of remembrance in Canada


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## Kilted (28 Jul 2022)

dangerboy said:


> Here is info from Veterans Affairs on the survey that they did. The future of remembrance in Canada


It's not as horrible as I thought it was going to be, it doesn't look like they are trying to change anything fundamental.


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## rmc_wannabe (28 Jul 2022)

Kilted said:


> It's not as horrible as I thought it was going to be, it doesn't look like they are trying to change anything fundamental.


I put my two cents in. A lot of this looks as though it's more of a revamp than a complete remodel. Good to see.


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## Navy_Pete (28 Jul 2022)

I hope they don't make it a holiday; I think the status quo works much better for all the kids to do participate in something at school, where they can actually learn something. Otherwise they are just generally freezing outside and impatient. A lot of employers shut down anyway to let people attend, so I think it's more meaningful currently.


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## Kilted (28 Jul 2022)

rmc_wannabe said:


> I put my two cents in. A lot of this looks as though it's more of a revamp than a complete remodel. Good to see.


Yeah, no rainbow poppies, removal of battle honours, or directions not to have arms in public, it's a lot better than I thought.


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## mariomike (29 Jul 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I hope they don't make it a holiday;











						Remembrance Day:  National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged)
					

Arbor Memorial video.  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=remembrance+day+video&&view=detail&mid=4B3D110C8E984DF4DFE44B3D110C8E984DF4DFE4&&FORM=VDRVSR




					army.ca
				




It was a Stat Holiday where I worked. Not sure how many attended services.


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## Navy_Pete (29 Jul 2022)

mariomike said:


> Remembrance Day:  National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged)
> 
> 
> Arbor Memorial video.  https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=remembrance+day+video&&view=detail&mid=4B3D110C8E984DF4DFE44B3D110C8E984DF4DFE4&&FORM=VDRVSR
> ...


That was great, thanks for sharing. 

Unfortunately I don't think BC mainland's weather is representative of most of the country in mid November. 

Only heard through the grapevine that in the US a lot of the Memorial weekend is just a long weekend party, with the commemoration being forgotten by most. I think what we do now is serving the intended purpose, and I think if we had it as a stat holiday a lot of people who aren't going now wouldn't participate anyway.

At least with Remembrance Day there are cermonies etc, with the Reconcilation Day there wasn't really anything, so was a bit weird.  I attended a virtual reconciliation talk earlier in the month that was pretty well done with a number of survivors sharing their stories, which was at least something.

Just my $0.02, but I think most kids across the country that are in school doing something on Remembrance Day learn something from it, and there are usually a few currently serving parents as guests as well to make it a bit more concrete for the kids that it's not just something from the past.


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## OldSolduer (29 Jul 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Just my $0.02, but I think most kids across the country that are in school doing something on Remembrance Day learn something from it, and there are usually a few currently serving parents as guests as well to make it a bit more concrete for the kids that it's not just something from the past.


In my granddaughter's school they put a Power Point together with all the veterans who had relatives in the school. It was very nice of the staff of the school to do that. 
Last Remembrance Day one of Mike's former teachers invited us to the ceremony at his old school. The bugler - a 14 year old boy - played for the same team my grandson did. Small world.


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## Furniture (29 Jul 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I hope they don't make it a holiday; I think the status quo works much better for all the kids to do participate in something at school, where they can actually learn something. Otherwise they are just generally freezing outside and impatient. A lot of employers shut down anyway to let people attend, so I think it's more meaningful currently.


9 of the 13 provinces and territories already have it as a holiday... 

I think it's a bit bizarre that Ontario hasn't made it a provincial holiday. If it stays on 11 Nov there is less chance of it becoming a Memorial Day type of shopping holiday.


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## ueo (30 Jul 2022)

dangerboy said:


> Veteran Affairs Canada is looking for input on how we conduct Remembrance Day. They have a survey asking questions as they want to change the traditional service. Here is a link to the survey, please provide your vital input.
> 
> The future of remembrance in Canada


Obviously not well advertised. Just heard about it today, went to the site to find it closed 16 Jul. Why such a poor PR job? If it was on HR or gun ctl would have been all over everywhere. Guess I'm feeling disenfranchised.


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## Fishbone Jones (1 Aug 2022)

The RCL are in control of Remembrance Day. The government needs to keep their nose out of it. The government provides us politicians (which we can do without) to babble about unceded land and some old Veteran that lived down the street. The trudeau liberals have started this initiative of intruding government on Remembrance Day. If it was started by him, it won't  bode well. We know there's an alternative reason he pushing it. We'll 
just have to wait til he drops it on us to,find out what it is. Veterans are Veterans are Veterans. Not black Veterans, not aboriginal Veterans, not oriental ones or white ones. We are Veterans period and that day is reserved for ALL Veterans and the Fallen. Not for meddling grits to push their woke agenda on Remembrance Day


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## Remius (1 Aug 2022)

I’ve done 25 remembrance days in Ottawa,  the PM, MND, GG etc have always been there.  Not one of them speaks.  

What do you mean by government intrusion?


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## rmc_wannabe (1 Aug 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> The RCL are in control of Remembrance Day.


Actually it's VAC, with support locally by the RCL. The RCL is about as much of a veteran run organization as the Rotary Club or the Masonic Order.



Fishbone Jones said:


> The government needs to keep their nose out of it.


Seems as if it's definitely within their wheelhouse... seeing as VAC is a federal department and the CAF/RCMP yield to civilian authority



Fishbone Jones said:


> The government provides us politicians (which we can do without) to babble about unceded land and some old Veteran that lived down the street.


Actually, the Canadian people provide us with elected politicians to represent ALL Canadians, not just the ones who bark the loudest. Sometimes it's the person you want, sometimes it's who everyone else wanted and you're SOL. If they have the support and feel like that unceded land and veteran down the street are worth their attention, they're acting on behalf of the majority who voted for them.


Fishbone Jones said:


> The trudeau liberals have started this initiative of intruding government on Remembrance Day.


This is blatantly false. Governments of every political stripe have been involved in Remembrance Day since it's inception. The fact I am ordered to put on boots and support Small Town Ontario's cenotaph ceremony is a testament to that. 



Fishbone Jones said:


> If it was started by him, it won't  bode well. We know there's an alternative reason he pushing it. We'll
> just have to wait til he drops it on us to,find out what it is.


If history has shown anything, it's that the CAF and VAC issues are the furthest thing from Mr. Trudeau's priority list, just above a Canadian Moon Landing and finding Big Foot.



Fishbone Jones said:


> Veterans are Veterans are Veterans. Not black Veterans, not aboriginal Veterans, not oriental ones or white ones. We are Veterans period and that day is reserved for ALL Veterans and the Fallen.


You have me in agreement on this point, right up until...



Fishbone Jones said:


> Not for meddling grits to push their woke agenda on Remembrance Day


It's not a woke agenda to encorporate recognition of VETERANS that have historically been shut out of the itineraries. 

Being marched into a Church Parade with the majority of a Regiment being practicing Muslims, Sikhs, or  Hindus seems like it's not catering to ALL Veterans. Hell most of my Regiment are either NRE, Norse Pagan, or something other than an OPD, Catholic, or Anglican. 

Canada has become less secular, more heterogeneous, and it's reflected in both the CAF and therefore in the veteran population. Singing "O God Our Help In Ages Past" and giving the Benediction at the cenotaph seem like pandering to a minority now. The shoe is on the other foot now.


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## Kilted (31 Oct 2022)

So, I haven't seen a CANFORGEN yet, but have the new biodegradable Poppy's been authorized for wear in uniform?


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## brihard (31 Oct 2022)

Kilted said:


> So, I haven't seen a CANFORGEN yet, but have the new biodegradable Poppy's been authorized for wear in uniform?


If they’re the poppy distributed by the Legion, why wouldn’t they be? The dress regs say “The Royal Canadian Legion Poppy”.


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## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

Furniture said:


> 9 of the 13 provinces and territories already have it as a holiday...
> 
> I think it's a bit bizarre that Ontario hasn't made it a provincial holiday. If it stays on 11 Nov there is less chance of it becoming a Memorial Day type of shopping holiday.


Ontario doesn't do it for a couple of reasons. Our population and industry here would lose large millions of dollars, in shutting down industry and paying millions of workers for the day if it were a stat holiday. Our population, of a small country, and workforce is too large to entertain it. Second, a large part of our population would just treat it as a holiday. Most other provinces don't have anywhere near our population, so they can decide they can afford it. Ontario can't ignore that kind of loss. Which, incidentally, is a reason Ford killed the protest at the Ambassador Bridge. He let them have their fun.  Until too many companies had to close due to loss in supplies affecting their production along with the layoff of thousands of workers. It was costing Ontario taxpayers millions every day. Problems less populous province didn't  have to contend with.

Ontario has nine public holidays:


New Year's Day
Family Day
Good Friday
Victoria Day
Canada Day
Labour Day
Thanksgiving Day
Christmas Day
Boxing Day (December 26)    Many companies and unions have agreed to trade out Family Day for Remembrance Day. Chrysler gave it to us without penalty as do a number of companies in Ontario. However, that is their decision, not the governments


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## mariomike (4 Nov 2022)

It is a tradition in France to place chysanthemums on graves on All Saints Day.

The seven members ( 5 RCAF and 2 RAF ) of the Lancaster crew my uncle was KIA with are buried in the communal cemetery nearest to where they were shot down.

They are the only non-French war graves in it. But, it was very nice to see photos of chysanthemums the townsfolk placed on their graves too. 

Can not speak highly enough of the people in that town.

Although there we no survivors ( it was a shrage muzik attack, returning with a full bomb load ) there were other survivors among the 41 Lancasters shot down over occupied France on the Revigny raid in July 1944, and the people helped them evade and escape. Some were captured.

In the book _Rendez-vous 127, The Diary of Anne Brusselmanns_, ACM Sir Basil Embry wrote:


> It is perhaps difficult for anyone who has not lived under the oppression of German occupation and witnessed first-hand the frightful evil of Gestapo police methods to appreciate fully what it meant to work in direct opposition to them.
> The married man or woman caught harbouring an Allied airman brought reprisals on the whole family - even small children were put to death. This was the price for patriotism, and as the Gestapo held most of the cards, the odds were strongly in their favour.
> Their peril was far greater than that of the airman whom they helped, because if the evader was caught, he would merely become a prisoner of war, but if they were found helping or sheltering him they were tortured and shot.


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## dimsum (4 Nov 2022)

Kilted said:


> So, I haven't seen a CANFORGEN yet, but have the new biodegradable Poppy's been authorized for wear in uniform?


I haven't seen them - do they look visibly different than the "standad" RCL ones?  Would anyone notice?


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## mariomike (4 Nov 2022)

Mapping Canada’s war dead, house by house​








						Mapping Canada’s war dead, house by house  | Globalnews.ca
					

Five interactive maps show Canada's war dead at the intimate scale of individual homes.




					globalnews.ca
				




Maybe some of us have walked these streets.


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## dangerboy (8 Nov 2022)

I am just putting this here because I don't know if it is worthy of its own thread (mods if it is do your thing).

So DND released a video to explain Veterans' week to young children and it is interesting. Watching the video I can understand why they choose Vimy Ridge but of all the events that the CAF has been I think they could have chosen something other than the Ice Storm.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1590042718650208256


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## FSTO (8 Nov 2022)

^^
What is a CTRC?


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## dangerboy (8 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> What is a CTRC


The Royal Canadian Corps of Signals (RCCS ) French: Corps des transmissions royal du Canada, (CTRC)


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## MARS (8 Nov 2022)

FSTO said:


> ^^
> What is a CTRC?


deleted since dangerboy beat me to it

This DWAN link refers if you can access it:

http://materiel.mil.ca/assets/MAT_I...rmes-legeres/normal-manchon-depaule-armee.pdf


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## The Bread Guy (8 Nov 2022)

dangerboy said:


> ... I think they could have chosen something other than the Ice Storm.


Curious - what would you have chosen instead?


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## dimsum (8 Nov 2022)

dangerboy said:


> but of all the events that the CAF has been I think they could have chosen something other than the Ice Storm.


My guess would be it has to be something that won't have kids asking uncomfortable questions (SAR, Long Term Care Homes...), nor something that's too recent in case said kids remember it.


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## quadrapiper (9 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> My guess would be it has to be something that won't have kids asking uncomfortable questions (SAR, Long Term Care Homes...), nor something that's too recent in case said kids remember it.


SAR seems reasonably safe, given the amount of firefighter and police content floating around kids.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Nov 2022)

Most kids these days are probably asking "_what's a letter_???"...

"It's an old-fashion email or SnapChat that had to make it to the other person by plane, or car or boat".

"That's silly!"


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