# IDF Back Into Gaza for Kidnapped Cpl.



## 54/102 CEF (26 Jun 2006)

This is as good a war threat as I`ve seen so far http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/26/060626081817.kfhkbz2g.html

Take out the perpetrators then take out their base areas - then take out their sponsors - won`t happen you say? 

Lets hope not - but keep your helmets handy


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## Canadian.Trucker (27 Jun 2006)

I'm not saying that Israel doesn't care for it's soldiers lives, but I wonder if they're using this as a reason to pull the trigger on Hamas.  It's no secret how Israel feels about the new Palestinian government.  I hope the soldier is returned unharmed, but I fear that if he isn't things are going to turn extremely nasty.  Things haven't been quiet in the region lately, but they aren't as bad either as they once were.  If Israel makes good on it's threat, there are international reprecussions that are going to come down, not to mention giving a rally cry for many palestinians sitting on the fence.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Jun 2006)

I wonder if Hamas is using this as a planned excuse to get out of the box presented by Abbas’s referendum idea? If the IDF comes in guns blazing, the average pal might not be keen to set up talks with them for awhile.


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## The Bread Guy (27 Jun 2006)

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3268283,00.html#n

''Operation "Summer Rains" begins: At around 2:30 a.m. (1930 EDT) Israeli tanks and troops rolled into the southern Gaza Strip on Wednesday, the army said, after mediators said hope of recovering kidnapped soldier Cpl. Gilad Shalit through talks was running out.  The incursion came shortly after Palestinian security forces deployed near the Gazan border town of Rafah said they were ordered out by the Israeli military.  Israeli Air Force planes targeted missiles at two bridges in the central Gaza Strip shortly before midnight Tuesday. After completing the deployment of forces to the area, the army entered “battle regulations” – or the state of preparation to launch an offensive.  At around 1:30 a.m. (1830 EDT) five missiles were fired at an electricity plant in south Gaza; blackouts were reported in some Gaza areas. ''

Best of luck!


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## 1feral1 (27 Jun 2006)

Would Tamouh care to comment on this?

 :

Wes


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## The Bread Guy (27 Jun 2006)

Ouch - that was quick  ;D


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## Jordan411 (27 Jun 2006)

Anyone else folowing this on TV and internet like crazy?


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## Infanteer (27 Jun 2006)

Get some.


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## The Bread Guy (28 Jun 2006)

There's GOTTA be at least one planner on the PSE side saying, "Once Israel comes back into Gaza, tanks in the streets will be all you'll see in the media, and we get to message about our oppression."  For example:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060628/wl_mideast_afp/mideastunrestpalestinianabbas
''Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas has slammed an Israeli ground offensive in the Gaza Strip "collective punishment" after civilian infrastructure was damaged in air strikes. ''

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3268484,00.html
''Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas condemned Israel's operation in the Gaza Strip, saying the IDF's first incursion into Gaza since last year's pullout is a war crime and constitutes collective punishment for thousands of Palestinians.''

In fact, ISR has set a pretty clear benchmark to turn the Merkava's around:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3268491,00.html
''Vice Premier Shimon Peres said Wednesday that the Palestinians could halt Israel's military operation in the Gaza Strip if they release Gilad Shalit, the soldier kidnapped in an attack on IDF troops near Gaza.''

BTW, here's the IDF news release on OP Summer Rains, with some (dark) video:
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=53481&Pos=1&last=1&bScope=True


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## tamouh (28 Jun 2006)

I'm back! The first thing Israel does is knock out all bridges, water and electricity. As if Hamas has tanks or heavy machinery to fight back. I also find the statements from Hamas funny, they'll "defend" Gaza. C'mon give me a break, we've seen what Israel did in Jenin. There is no way Hamas or for that matter of fact any arab army be able to defend the city at this stage.

Interesting news though just couple of hours ago, IAF planes fly over Damascus and precisely the Assad palace:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/28/israel.soldier/index.html

I like the Syrian response: "We chased off the Israeli Airplanes"......duh! After what ? They were already above damascus. I guesss the guy sitting at his radar station was taking a nap o rsomething! (If they ever showed up on radar)


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## Infanteer (28 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> I'm back! The first thing Israel does is knock out all bridges, water and electricity.



Tends to happen when you vote for Hamas....


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## I_am_John_Galt (28 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> C'mon give me a break, we've seen what Israel did in Jenin.



They sacrificed their own soldiers to try to reduce Palestinian casualties only to be accused by most of the world of a massacre ...


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## enfield (28 Jun 2006)

Interesting reaction from Israel. I think it reflects the place of the IDF and its personnel in society.
Few other countries would go to such ends over a captured soldier (or citizen) - as much as we would like to believe they would. But where every citizen is essentially a soldier, and where that kidnapped corporal could literally be anyone's 19 yr old child, the Government is willing and able to go to bat. 

This could be big - Israel is pointing directly at Hamas and Syria here, and expecting answers. There is a lot more than just a captured soldier at stake here:
The IDF could solve the Palestinian power struggle and in the end do Fatah a favour by making Hamas a non-viable entity. As Fatah is more pro-peace than Hamas, knocking Hamas out of the political struggle is in Israel's interests. (note: by "knock-out" I mean disable the logistics and leadership of Hamas to the extent it can't govern or compete against Fatah, not be erased completely. If that was possible, Israel would have done it a long time ago)

Hamas needs to win the internal struggle, and the best way is to unite behind popular resistance against Israel - say, by kidnapping a young conscript and forcing something dramatic by the IDF. Remember that before this kidnapping Palestine was moving to civil war, and Israel was largely just watching. Forcing Israel into the picture again changes the dynamic and popular feeling.


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## Shec (28 Jun 2006)

> Interesting reaction from Israel. I think it reflects the place of the IDF and its personnel in society.
> Few other countries would go to such ends over a captured soldier (or citizen) - as much as we would like to believe they would. But where every citizen is essentially a soldier, and where that kidnapped corporal could literally be anyone's 19 yr old child, the Government is willing and able to go to bat.



And that cuts to the heart of the matter:

This operation IS NOT about re-occupying Gaza,  

This operation IS NOT about de-stabilizing the quest for Palestinian statehood, 

Recent political actions and concessions point to the contrary.

This operation IS about taking direct and decisive military action to rescue Israelis who have fallen into the hands of their people's enemies. 

In that regard it is no different from the raid on Entebbe and in that regard it is unequivocally justifiable. 

Go IDF!!!  Rescue the two who have been kidnapped or,if they have been murdered, get them some justice.


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## ArmyRick (28 Jun 2006)

I hope the IDF lays the boots to those pr*cks


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## Spencer100 (28 Jun 2006)

CNN reporting the hostage has been killed.  No link up let just an alert on the main page.

RIP


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Jun 2006)

Perhaps they wil clean up Syria as well.


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## 1feral1 (28 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> I'm back! The first thing Israel does is knock out all bridges, water and electricity. As if Hamas has tanks or heavy machinery to fight back.



Did you ever think that might have been done to discourage and/or prevent the kidnapped IDF member being transported in, say a vehicle (by the murdering cowards you obviously support) outside the perimiter?

You make me wanna VOMIT Tamouh. Your comments are fast becomming very un-Canadian to say the least.


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## 1feral1 (28 Jun 2006)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> CNN reporting the hostage has been killed.  No link up let just an alert on the main page.
> 
> RIP



Personally, I would not be suprised if they murdered this hostage. Remember we are dealing with sub-human creatures worse than a rabid animal, and if the IDF stays around for a while to at least try to sort out these dog turds, they have my blessing.

Regards,

Wes


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## big bad john (28 Jun 2006)

Wesley 'Down Under' said:
			
		

> Personally, I would not be suprised if they murdered this hostage. Remember we are dealing with sub-human creatures worse than a rabid animal, and if the IDF stays around for a while to at least try to sort out these dog turds, they have my blessing.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Wes



You echo my thoughts on the subject fully.  ALWAYS look after your own!


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## tomahawk6 (29 Jun 2006)

The 18 year old civilian who was kidnapped was found dead in a shallow grave. Evidently killed shortly after his kidnapping.

Gaza had become a terrorist training base which threatened Israel. This operation will destroy Hamas and the Fatah terror groups in the Gaza. The Israelis have captured over 30 top Hamas political leaders as leverage in getting their man back. I dont see Gaza being returned to the control of the PA anytime soon.


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## The Bread Guy (29 Jun 2006)

Some of the latest, as of 0644EDT:

IDF Nabs Hamas Deputy PM, MPs, Cabinet Members
http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/zones/sundaytimesNEW/basket7st/basket7st1151575062.aspx

ISR Air Force Buzzes Jordan's Bosses
http://story.irishsun.com/p.x/ct/9/id/d55149cc2587b122/cid/2411cd3571b4f088/

Even RUSSIA Says Cpl. Should be Released!
http://mosnews.com/news/2006/06/29/russiaslamspalestine.shtml

IDF:  More to Come...
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=106234
...But Endgame Not in Sight Yet
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1150885876417&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

French ForMin Criticizes ISR, Saying "Diplomacy" is the Answer
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885878440&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


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## Zell_Dietrich (29 Jun 2006)

Okay,  maybe off topic here,  I find the argument of "collective punishment" kind of ... well invalid.  They chose to elect people who would take military actions against Israel.  Those elected leaders chose to order those actions.  If Canada elected a leadership that then attacked America,  how could we say "oh don't hurt us that's collective punishment".  This isn't a group of simple criminals bent on provoking Israel into action,  this was an action taken by one Government against another.

On a really off colour comment ...(to balance out my seemingly pro Israel paragraph) I find it ironic that Israel was created because of the efforts to ethnically cleanse them in Europe - ghettos, walls,  seizing of land/property.  Now they have a country of their own,  what do they do,  build walls,  seize land and then periodically raid the ghetto...errr Gaza... err Golan ... err (space reserved for next incursion)  like the old saying "The meek shall inherit the Earth... but how meek will they be once they have it."


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## Shec (29 Jun 2006)

Why was infrastructure knocked out?   Here is an interesting and strategically sound rationale:



> Analysis: Lebanese rules of war
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Herb Keinon, THE JERUSALEM POST Jun. 29, 2006
> 
> ...


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## Colin Parkinson (29 Jun 2006)

Interesting article
The tunnel used in the raid would have taken at least 6 months to dig, perhaps longer to do it undetected. Hamas either ordered the raid or allowed it to happen. I suspect that they used the tunnel at this time to avoid the referendum being proposed by the PA. They expected a response by Israel which would effectively remove any desire to create a ceasefire and peace with them. The current state of affairs is much more in the comfort zone of Hamas than running the day to day affairs of government.

I have concerns about the long term impacts of the IDF strikes on the average Pal, many who would rather live and let live, but at the same time I understand the Israelis position, they give up land and are attacked even more, why bother negotiating.


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## I_am_John_Galt (29 Jun 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> I find it ironic that Israel was created because of the efforts to ethnically cleanse them in Europe - ghettos, walls,  seizing of land/property.  Now they have a country of their own,  what do they do,  build walls,  seize land and then periodically raid the ghetto...errr Gaza... err Golan ... err (space reserved for next incursion)



Interesting (and unfortunately rather popular) interpretation of history ...


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## Colin Parkinson (29 Jun 2006)

milnewstbay 

They buzzed the Syrians, not Jordon, but thanks for the links.

the zoomies must love doing that stuff.


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## The Bread Guy (29 Jun 2006)

DOOOOH!  Thx, Colin!


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Jun 2006)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19645805-2703,00.html

Israel warns: free soldier or PM dies
Middle East correspondent Martin Chulov 
July 01, 2006
ISRAEL last night threatened to assassinate Palestinian Prime Minister Ismael Haniyeh if Hamas militants did not release a captured Israeli soldier unharmed.
The unprecedented warning was delivered to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in a letter as Israel debated a deal offered by Hamas to free Corporal Gilad Shalit. 

It came as Israeli military officials readied a second invasion force for a huge offensive into Gaza. 

Hamas's Gaza-based political leaders, including Mr Haniyeh, had already gone into hiding. 

But last night's direct threat to kill Mr Haniyeh, a democratically elected head of state, sharply raised the stakes. 

The bid to free Corporal Shalit was brokered by Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, who last night warned Hamas it faced severe consequences if it did not curb its "extreme stance" and described the growing conflict as a lightning rod for Palestinian vengeance. 

Jerusalem has made no official comment, but Egyptian state media said Israel had found the offer unacceptable. Israel has not spelt out the terms demanded by Hamas, but earlier this week it refused to buy into talk of a prisoner swap. 

Thousands of Hamas supporters protested in Gaza City late on Thursday over the arrest by Israeli forces of up to 32 Hamas MPs on the West Bank that day. 

A Hamas spokesman said the group would never recognise Israel, in spite of a deal its leaders signed this week offering implicit recognition of the Jewish state in return for easing an economic blockade. 

Israeli fighter jets bombed 20 targets in Gaza, including the Interior Ministry, which it said had been used by militants to stage meetings, while artillery hit the northern strip with 500 shells in the 24 hours until yesterday morning. 

Jewish settler Eliyahu Asheri, who was murdered by militants this week, was buried on Thursday as leaders of the Popular Resistance Committees pledged to seize more hostages in the West Bank. No further word has emerged about another suspected Jewish hostage, Noach Moskowitz, who Israeli police said was found dead hours after Mr Asheri's remains were found. 

Much of Gaza, including two main hospitals, was without power and running water as a UN aid chief warned that the 1.4 million residents of the strip were three days away from a humanitarian crisis. 

"They are heading for the abyss unless they get electricity and fuel restored," said emergency relief co-ordinator Jan Egeland, who urged militants to free Corporal Shalit and stop firing rockets into Israel. 

Residents complain that sonic booms caused by Israeli jets traumatise children and that shelling confines families to their homes. 

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has vowed the military will do all it can to avoid civilian deaths if a full-scale assault is launched. 

Mr Olmert said the decision to invade northern Gaza had already been delayed to allow Mr Mubarak's negotiations to continue. 

The arrested Hamas legislators have been sent to security prisons and many will stand trial on terrorism offences. The detentions have hurt Hamas's already limited ability to govern and are likely to force a regime change. 

Israel claims it has intelligence about the area where Corporal Shalit is held, but has been unable to pinpoint the exact location. Mr Olmert said the military would leave the strip if he was unconditionally and safely returned. 

Egypt and the neighbouring Arab states of Jordan and Lebanon fear a war between Israel and the Palestinians could lead to uprisings within their own borders, which house many Palestinian refugees.


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Jun 2006)

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11486

Israel threatens to assassinate Hamas PM 
6/12/2006 10:00:00 AM GMT


Israel’s Defense Minister Amir Peretz warned that Israel could target top Hamas officials as an armed confrontation between the two sides escalated in the Gaza Strip with more air strikes and cross-border attacks, The Chicago Tribune reported. 

Hamas ended a 16-month truce on Friday after an Israeli air strike on a Gaza beach killed seven members of a Palestinian family. 

Israel resumed its attacks on Gaza despite the civilian deaths, killing two Hamas fighters and wounding three others on Sunday.  

Also Sunday, Hamas fired a number of homemade Qassam rockets at Israel, wounding an Israeli in the southern town of Sderot. 

A Hamas lawmaker vowed to continue the attacks on Israel. 

“Blood for blood and resistance for violence," said Hamas lawmaker Mushir al-Masri. “The occupation will realize that the blood of the martyrs is dear. ... The enemy will pay a price."

On the other hand, Peretz warned that Israel could target senior Hamas figures, including Palestinian Prime Minister Ismael Haneya.  

“No one has an insurance policy," Peretz said. “No framework, no title, no status will provide protection for an element that we find is involved in planning or execution of the firing," he added. 

A top member of Israel’s Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's Kadima party also threatened Haneya with assassination if the movement continues attacks on Israel, Reuters reported. 

"Yassin and Rantissi are waiting for you, Haneya, if you implement the same stance of liquidating Jews,” said Tzachi Hanegbi, chairman of parliament's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee. 

Hanegbi was referring to Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a co-founder of Hamas, and Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi, another leader of the resistance group, who were both assassinated by Israel in Gaza in 2004.

Hanegbi is not a member of the prime minister’s inner circle. But his comments, including a prediction that "confrontation between Israel and Hamas is inevitable", followed a threat from Olmert, who told his cabinet last week that Israel “will know when and how to deal” with Hamas’ recent attacks. 


Speaking to reporters in Gaza, Prime Minister Ismail Haneya dismissed Hanegbi's threat as indicative of "a type of political madness from some Israeli leaders."

Hamas, which formed the Palestinian government in March after winning a January election, is locked in a struggle with President Mahmoud Abbas over a statehood plan, devised by jailed Palestinian resistance fighters, that implicitly recognizes Israel.

To overcome Hamas’ opposition to a two-state solution, Abbas called a national referendum on the document on July 26. 

But Hamas said it would ask parliament on Monday to declare the referendum illegal, a move that would escalate tensions between the government and Abbas, who was scheduled to hold more talks with Haniyeh to resolve the dispute. 

Meanwhile, two prisoners who helped draft the manifesto, Abdel-Khalez al-Natsheh of Hamas and Bassam al-Saadi of Islamic Jihad, withdrew their support for the plan, saying that it had been exploited by Abbas to promote his political agenda, according to a statement issued in Gaza.  

In a seperate development, an Israeli government agency offered for sale 54 plots of land for the construction of homes near the large West Bank settlement of Ariel. 

The move is in line with Israel's plan to strengthen major Jewish settlements in the occpied West Bank,  which contradicts the U.S.-backed peace "road map" that calls for a halt to such construction in all lands needed by the Palestinians for a future state.


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## warpig (30 Jun 2006)

When Shec quoted that Jerusalem Post article, he completely reversed the rationality of Israel’s incursion, or invasion if you will, by inferring, as has others here, that this is a problem solving action of some forethought. If the Captured Corporal is found alive, then most will argue that there has been a justified rational for the violence. If the Corporal is not found, or found dead after the military pressure got close, then what?

Shec allowed a lot of incorrect opinions regarding the Israeli incursion into Lebanon go when he allowed the article in. Because of the Israeli incursion, Lebanon fell under direct Syrian rule for over 20 years. It can be argued that the resulting Islamic domination of Lebanon, the collapse of the Christian Militias sponsored by Israel, the costly, bloody and futile occupation that left nearly 20.000 dead, including nearly 700 Israeli soldiers, and the immergence of Hamas and Hezbollah are all the result of the aborted invasion, which lasted nearly 2 years. 

I ask, what will Israel do after the Corporal is found? With most of the moderates in the PA cabinet “arrested” and held in Israeli jails, what control of the radical Palestinian factions will be exercised? And why should the Palestinians await the return of their kidnapped elected officials in humiliation? It will rightly seem to them that after starving the PA of funds, and now rubbling their infrastructure, the West will demands the Palestinians to just sit on their hands and wish for better times. I can give a fair guess as to how this is going to play out. Badly.

What is Israel to do now, that it has assumed responsibility for Palestine? Public opinion in Israel will not tolerate a long, bloody occupation. It can only be a matter of days before the Islamist factions begin to target Israeli soldiers with suicide bombs. Its very hard to kill Israelis inside their defences and extremely easy to do it when they expose themselves. This is the exposure Israel’s enemies have been looking for.

Too many commentators here have engaged a rather thoughtless attitude here, and a bravado “Kick-Their-Scum-Sucking-Butt” attitude is fine when watching Red Dawn but hardly rational in this case.

Think I’m the only one who thinks this?
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Harris_Michael/2006/06/30/1660870.html


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## tamouh (30 Jun 2006)

> Think I’m the only one who thinks this?



You're pretty much right on the point. In the end, when Israeli army does something, they truly do it in the sense of strategic military point of view. They really don't care or consider the fall out politics afterwards nor they calculate the results of their actions. This is a major criticism of the IDF even from inside Israel.


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## 1feral1 (30 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> They really don't care or consider the fall out politics afterwards nor they calculate the results of their actions.



Well, at the end of the day if HAMAS or some other cowardly organisation to blame, would not have dug the tunnel under the border, atatcked and deliberatly killed some soldiers and did this kidnapping, the IDF would not be doing what thye are doing right now, would they!

The cowards of Hamas have only themselves to blame, no one else.

lets hope the IDF shows no mercy, and pounds these sub-humans into dust. I have No sympathy for them at all.


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## tamouh (30 Jun 2006)

> lets hope the IDF shows no mercy, and pounds these sub-humans into dust. I have No sympathy for them at all.



Ya sub-humans living in a sub-society under the control of a sub-state that has a sub-army....that is israel.


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## 1feral1 (30 Jun 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> Ya sub-humans living in a sub-society under the control of a sub-state that has a sub-army....that is israel.



Well Tamouh, yet again you have acheived a new high in low.

You take your pro-islamcic terrorist attitude and shove it!

Remember, if you are so passionate in your beliefs, as said before, vent your frustrations out over there, and take your culture of hatred, violence, and your anti-westrern mentality with you.

Canada is the wrong country and this is the wrong site to advertise where your loyality TRULY is.


Wes


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## tamouh (30 Jun 2006)

> Well Tamouh, yet again you have acheived a new high in low.



I'm not the one who is labelling human as sub-human and 'pounds these sub-humans into dust'. 



> Canada is the wrong country and this is the wrong site to advertise where your loyality TRULY is



Buddy, keep your extreme ideology to yourself. I live here and contribute to this society as much as you do. I also don't believe there were a label on this forum for 'right-wing extremists only'.

Enough with the personal attacks, you have your opinion on a matter and I have mine.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Jun 2006)

Actually I'm locking this untill morning and giving both of you a "shot across the bow".

Both of you must be more specific in who you are labeling............

EDIT: and this goes for any other thread this evening.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Jul 2006)

Re-opened


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## paracowboy (2 Jul 2006)

warpig said:
			
		

> Shec allowed a lot of incorrect opinions regarding the Israeli incursion into Lebanon go when he allowed the article in. Because of the Israeli incursion, Lebanon fell under direct Syrian rule for over 20 years.


nice revisionism. The Israeli incursion was a direct result of the Syrian-backed Palestinian invasion.


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## tomahawk6 (2 Jul 2006)

Israel will end up having to crush Hamas to the advantage of Fatah.


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## GAP (2 Jul 2006)

Does nobody remember the dire predictions of Israel and the world when Yassir Arafat and the PLO became the legitmate government of the Palestinians?


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## tomahawk6 (2 Jul 2006)

Arafat never stopped directing attacks on Israel and Hamas certainly has been doing the same.The abduction of the corporal was an act of war by Hamas and is being treated as such by the IDF. The indecision by the political leadership has cost the IDF a week and helped Hamas plan a defense.


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## Shec (4 Jul 2006)

With respect Warpig, and as Paracowboy points out the Syrians occupying Lebanese soil before Israel was,  not before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

http://www.cedarland.org/war.html#intervention

So the Jerusalem Post editorial's contention is a valid one.


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## CanadaPhil (4 Jul 2006)

There is no one to blame for this whole situation but Hamas. 

They have shown how politically inept they are right out of the starting gate. In this current situation, they obviously misjudged what Israel's reaction was going to be. What is quite clear at this point is that this attack had been planned for many, many, months and Hamas has admitted their involvement in what essentially is an OPEN ACT OF WAR.

I have to give Israel credit. Many governments give lip service to the phrase "not leaving anyone behind", but they put their money where their mouth is. 

I don't know what the Palestinian people were thinking when they "voted" (containing laughter) for a party that is sworn to the destruction of the country that they want "peace" with????? and has been sponsoring and planning suicide attacks against civilians for years. What do the Palestinian people want exactly?? It sure doesn't appear that they want peace. 

I therefore will give the benefit of the doubt to Israel every time.


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## Colin Parkinson (5 Jul 2006)

I think they voted for the only option other than Fatah, hoping that Hamas would grow up, but they were wrong.

Actually arresting the moderates, may have been a good thing, it raises their stature in Gaza and it seems that the Israelis allow a fair bit of dialogue and politicking to go on in their jails. This may turn out to be a chance for them to develop a new plan to limit conflict. By being kept out of the mess and kept safe, they can return and hopefully wrestle control from the hard liners who’s goals are not going to be met.


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## GAP (6 Jul 2006)

12 Palestinians, Israeli killed in bloody day
Last Updated Thu, 06 Jul 2006 13:21:14 EDT
CBC News
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/06/israel-gaza.html

As many as 12 Palestinians and one Israeli soldier were killed Thursday amid some of the heaviest military exchanges between the two sides since the abduction of an Israeli soldier and the invasion of Gaza


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## tamouh (6 Jul 2006)

> As many as 12 Palestinians and one Israeli soldier were killed Thursday amid some of the heaviest military exchanges between the two sides since the abduction of an Israeli soldier and the invasion of Gaza



I'm telling you, neither side will learn! Israel went to free a soldier, they just lost another one. Palestinians wanted to free 100s of prisoners, well they're losing 10s every day and their whole infrastructure is destroyed.

There is no hope in that part of the world......


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## Fry (6 Jul 2006)

tamouh,




> Hamas
> 
> n : a militant Islamic fundamentalist political movement that opposes peace with Israel and uses terrorism as a weapon; seeks to create an Islamic state in place of Israel; is opposed to the PLO and has become a leading perpetrator of terrorist activity in Israel; pioneered suicide bombing [syn: Hamas, Islamic Resistance Movement]



Read that over, and before you post, consider where you're posting, and what the above definition refers to.

I have to agree with Wes here tamouh. Hamas are infact sub-humans, knowing full well that keeping that soldier will incur the wrath of Israel. Not only are they being brazen about it, they're not giving up the soldier that was kidnapped, putting the lives of their people at risk. God pray that he's still alive and returns in one piece.

Tread lightly, because you're soon going to break through.



> There is no hope in that part of the world.......



Do you mean Israel, Gaza... or the Middle East in general? I'd like for you to specify, because I'm sure it would anger many who've shed blood, sweat and tears over there to try to make a difference, to see that posted on such a reputable website.

Do us all a favor and cease your infamous babbling.


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## Fry (6 Jul 2006)

> I don't believe in something called "peaceful islam" , "peaceful christianity" or "peaceful judasim" or even "peaceful world". Everyone interprets things the way they like them to be and act based on what they think is right or wrong. This is why there is left and right !



Hmm... not believing in in a peaceful world. Terrorists do not believe in a peaceful world. So, logically thinking, if tamouh doesn't believe in a peaceful world, and terrorists do not believe in a peaceful world... what does that make tamouh?

I really think that your terrorist-like views should really not be posted on a website that represents an organization that is dedicated to the defense of our Country or bringing worldwide peace.


That's my $0.02 .


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## tamouh (6 Jul 2006)

> Fry:
> Hmm... not believing in in a peaceful world. Terrorists do not believe in a peaceful world. So, logically thinking, if tamouh doesn't believe in a peaceful world, and terrorists do not believe in a peaceful world... what does that make tamouh?
> 
> I really think that your terrorist-like views should really not be posted on a website that represents an organization that is dedicated to the defense of our Country or bringing worldwide peace.
> ...



It is really of no value to actually argue against your posts. They lack intellect, dialogue and moreover any sense of appreciation of content. I'm a contributing part of the defense of this Country, its values and society. In fact, much more than you can imagine. But since you lack the intellect to comprehend what i say, there is no reason to explain it to you any further. 

If you're here to bring such useless talks, then you may want to take your thoughtless desires to a place that suits it.


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## CanadaPhil (6 Jul 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> well they're losing 10s every day and their whole infrastructure is destroyed.



Well that's GREAT!. Maybe this can serve as a lesson then.


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## Fry (7 Jul 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> It is really of no value to actually argue against your posts. They lack intellect, dialogue and moreover any sense of appreciation of content. I'm a contributing part of the defense of this Country, its values and society. In fact, much more than you can imagine. But since you lack the intellect to comprehend what i say, there is no reason to explain it to you any further.
> 
> If you're here to bring such useless talks, then you may want to take your thoughtless desires to a place that suits it.



So... you think that posts backing Hamas, saying that you do not believe in world peace and providing 'excuses' for the actions overseas involivng the Hamas' actions gives you a right to strut all around here thinking that you're providing posts that have 'intellect' ? 

You're so full of yourself, more than you can believe. You're treading on thin ice, keep it up and I wouldn't be surprised if you get a PM from a mod because your 'terrorist-like views' aren't welcome here. I've already proved what your intent is.


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## Infanteer (7 Jul 2006)

In all fairness, tamouh said Palestinians and Israelis.  It is you, Fry, who decided to launch into some rant about the "sub-human nature of Hamas".  Cool it.


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## Gunnar (7 Jul 2006)

Further, Fry...that's really bad logic.

A does not believe in peace.
B does not believe in peace.

Therefore, A=B.

Umm...doesn't work.

If you had at least said, "Only terrorists don't believe in peace, therefore anyone who doesn't believe in peace is a terrorist" the logical structure would work, even if the assumptions are crap.  I mean, I truly believe you're entitled to believe in wrong ideas...but  you can't justify them with faulty logic...that just plain annoys me.   

Besides, soldiers don't usually believe in peace.  They know better.


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## tamouh (7 Jul 2006)

Infanteer, Gunnar, Thanks for the clarification.

Regarding the peace post, it was meant there is no peaceful world when there are wars. In my opinion true peace is total serenity. What we have is not peace. Throughout human history there were never peace, peace is a relative term to a situation but not general to the whole world. I'm NOT saying because there is no peace we should start more wars.

Regarding my comments on Palestinians and Israelis, as Infanteer mentioned, they are clear. I've decided to be on nobody's side in this conflict because both sides are real ignorants. If anything, I think this incident is a great opportunity for Hamas to play politics. Imagine Hamas delivering the soldier safe and sound themselves to the door steps of his Father's home. I mean this is the greatest publicity Hamas can pull off and Israel is giving them a great opportunity here. But you need a smart mind to do something like that! (and NO, i'm NOT meaning Palestinians nor Israelis are stupid).


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## CanadaPhil (7 Jul 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> If anything, I think this incident is a great opportunity for Hamas to play politics. Imagine Hamas delivering the soldier safe and sound themselves to the door steps of his Father's home. I mean this is the greatest publicity Hamas can pull off and Israel is giving them a great opportunity here. But you need a smart mind to do something like that!



WOW!! If that statement isn't twisted on a variety of levels I don't know what is. 

So, the group who's members actually planned and orchestrated an act of war, killing 2 soldiers and kidnapping a third in the process can use this whole thing as a great publicity opportunity???

Tuning out Tamouh...... * NOW *


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## paracowboy (7 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> So, the group who's members actually planned and orchestrated an act of war, killing 2 soldiers and kidnapping a third in the process can use this whole thing as a great publicity opportunity???


actually, it would be brilliant. HAMAS returns the soldier to Israel, with some decapitated heads, and says "Here you are, Jewish Oppressors. Here is your murdering pig-dog returned safely, with the heads of those who took him. Unlike you, *we* are dedicated to Peace, and have shown it to the world."
Then, Israel ends up looking like the Bad Guy. Especially in the eyes of the Muslim community. Beautiful tactics.


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## tamouh (7 Jul 2006)

> So, the group who's members actually planned and orchestrated an act of war, killing 2 soldiers and kidnapping a third in the process can use this whole thing as a great publicity opportunity???



Yes, Indeed! The Art of Politics. If they've treated the kidnapped soldier very well and 'brain wash' him with pictures of how bad the Palestinians living under their conquerors, they could pretty much guarantee a future advocate for the Palestinians sufferings afterwards. Twisted maybe, but so is life!


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## paracowboy (7 Jul 2006)

they'd never pull it off, though. They've spent so much time and effort into brain-washing their children into worshipping at a cult of Death, that they no longer have any control over their own populace. Palestine is lost. It can never be civilized again.


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## zipperhead_cop (7 Jul 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> Yes, Indeed! The Art of Politics. If they've treated the kidnapped soldier very well and 'brain wash' him with pictures of how bad the Palestinians living under their conquerors, they could pretty much guarantee a future advocate for the Palestinians sufferings afterwards. Twisted maybe, but so is life!



That would be some pretty impressive mind altering, since any Israeli has been raised on a steady diet of Palestinian murder and terror.  
Hamas won't compromise because they don't want to look weak.  They also want to look like victims to the other Arab countries, and thus draw in some more support.  If some tool is willing to strap a pack of C-4 and ball bearings and detonate on a bus, what do they care if the tanks are rolling through the camps blowing stuff away?  Being a martyr is a state to be pursued, not avoided.


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## Clément Barbeau Vermet (8 Jul 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> I think this incident is a great opportunity for Hamas to play politics. I mean this is the greatest publicity Hamas can pull off and Israel is giving them a great opportunity here.


I think that Hamas should make this last as long as possible. They are getting great puplicity now by all our incompetant medias... "9 Palestinian 'activists' [no no, they are not islamic terrorists, but 'activists'] were killed by the IDF wich also destroyed 3 Palestinian 'schools' [no no, these schools are not some terrorist trainning centers, but some normal schools] today..."


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## tamouh (8 Jul 2006)

> they'd never pull it off, though. They've spent so much time and effort into brain-washing their children into worshipping at a cult of Death, that they no longer have any control over their own populace. Palestine is lost. It can never be civilized again.



Agree completely, in fact, I believe the whole Hamas movement was the direct result of 1980s Intifida and most likely the people who are running the military wings now were young teens or early 20s in the 1980s. So look 20 yrs from now if the situation continues at this pace, you'll expect the next generation to be more tactical and persistant.



> zipperhead_cop
> That would be some pretty impressive mind altering, since any Israeli has been raised on a steady diet of Palestinian murder and terror.
> Hamas won't compromise because they don't want to look weak.  They also want to look like victims to the other Arab countries, and thus draw in some more support.  If some tool is willing to strap a pack of C-4 and ball bearings and detonate on a bus, what do they care if the tanks are rolling through the camps blowing stuff away?  Being a martyr is a state to be pursued, not avoided.



Agree, though Hamas is not gaining any significant support from the Arab nations. They're gaining support in the Arabic and Muslim streets, but little it any government except to the Egyptians attempting to defuse the situation.


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## zipperhead_cop (9 Jul 2006)

tamouh said:
			
		

> Agree, though Hamas is not gaining any significant support from the Arab nations. They're gaining support in the Arabic and Muslim streets, but little it any government except to the Egyptians attempting to defuse the situation.



I thought they never enjoyed support from the other Arab nations, even when they were the PLO?
IMO what they have there is a government that was elected for the wrong reasons, and now that someone was trying to actually settle things out, they have to get back to what they know (and love).  I have every belief that Hamas could give a rats arse about the well being of the Palestinian people.  To them, anyone that isn't an active militant is just cannon fodder, only useful in as much as they can get a photo of a dead child on the news to outrage people.  As well, we all know that Hamas gets funding from other terrorist supporters, so they have to "stick it to the Jews" to keep up their end of the bargin.  
For that matter, if they eventually recognized Israel and got around to the business of peace, then the regular people would perhaps see Israel as not the big enemy next door.  If life started to improve over there, and the normal citizens were able to think in terms of actually expecting happiness, that would be counter productive to Hamas.  
I agree that there is a cyclic nature of this situation.  Every time Israel reacts by sending in the tanks and annexing an area (even for a short time) that goes towards supporting Hamas' objective of vilifying them and focusing attention on how terribly brutal their tactics are.  I don't understand why no one ever says "maybe those fu^kwits shouldn't have nabbed the soldier in the first place".  Everyone gets so hung up on Israels reaction but why isn't anything said about what they are reacting to?  And why does it seem that every time this happens (terrorist act, massive retaliation) that people seem shocked and amazed for the first time, every time.  "Hellooo!  Mr. Hamas/Dumass?  Simple cause and effect, fella".  
I feel bad for that poor troop that is bound and blindfolded somewhere.  He is a pawn in a big game right now, and I am afraid no good with come of this for him.  However, that doesn't change the fact that Hamas needs to be stomped into the dust and erased from existence.  Palestine would be better off with a helium balloon running it.


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## paracowboy (9 Jul 2006)

in fairness, HAMAS funds/runs hospitals and schools. They provided a fairly reasonable political and legal infrastructure in areas they controlled. They built playgrounds, and assisted in the economies of the areas under their control. One could almost believe they care about the welfare of the average Palestinian.

Until you realize they brainwash their children into committing murder and suicide.


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## tomahawk6 (10 Jul 2006)

Interesting article that for me anyway reinforces my own view of the conflict. PM Barak offered Arafat 95% of the territory he demanded and yet it wasnt enough,because Arafat wanted Israel. Sharon gave Gaza back unilaterally. The Palestinians failed to establish civil control of the area and began to use it as a launching pad for rocket attacks on Israel. We should stop negotiating with people that want nothing less than the complete surrender of Israel. Let Israel defend themselves and get out of the way.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1150885956191


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## tamouh (10 Jul 2006)

This is Barak's Generous Offer in map details :

http://www.gush-shalom.org/generous/generous.html


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## CanadaPhil (10 Jul 2006)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> .......... PM Barak offered Arafat 95% of the territory he demanded and yet it wasnt enough,because Arafat wanted Israel. Sharon gave Gaza back unilaterally. The Palestinians failed to establish civil control of the area and began to use it as a launching pad for rocket attacks on Israel. We should stop negotiating with people that want nothing less than the complete surrender of Israel. Let Israel defend themselves and get out of the way.
> 
> http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1150885956191



That has been the best 4 line summary of the TRUE FACTS I have read in a long time.


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## CanadaPhil (10 Jul 2006)

The CBC is just posting comments from the leader of Hamas in which he is stating that Cpl. Shalit is a POW and will be kept as a prisoner.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/10/hamas-pow.html?ref=rss

So then I suppose that Hamas should not be acting surprised that the IDF is now conducting operations back in Gaza. Afterall, if you admit to planning an attack and abduction, the Israeli's are well within their rights to retaliate right?? I mean, that's WAR right Hamas?


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## Infanteer (11 Jul 2006)

Interesting that Hamas can decide when and when not to apply the Laws of Armed Conflict....


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## Clément Barbeau Vermet (12 Jul 2006)

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> PM Barak offered Arafat 95% of the territory he demanded and yet it wasnt enough,*because Arafat wanted Israel.*


Not exactly, they have *FAAAR* greater ambitions:
http://www.pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_yasserghalban.asx
Or maybe they just abused from from the Afghan opium...  ;D


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## tamouh (12 Jul 2006)

> Or maybe they just abused from from the Afghan opium...



LOL...this is the worst propoganda clip i've ever seen in my life, laying on a couch and giving a "victorious" like sppech.


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## Scoobie Newbie (12 Jul 2006)

Israel sends tanks into Lebanon after Hezbollah attack

Wednesday, July 12, 2006; Posted: 2:57 p.m. EDT (18:57 GMT) 

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Hezbollah guerrillas killed seven Israeli soldiers and captured two more Wednesday, triggering Israeli airstrikes and military raids inside southern Lebanon, Israeli officials said.

The Israeli military said its land, air and naval forces had hit at least eight Hezbollah bases and five bridges in the southern Lebanon.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's Cabinet was expected to approve more military action Wednesday evening, as Israel warned it would unleash its "utmost power" to retrieve its soldiers. 

Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah told reporters that "direct negotiations" would be the only way to return the soldiers and that their capture was "our natural, only and logical right." 

He demanded the soldiers be swapped for "our prisoners" held by Israel. A demand for Israel to release Palestinians from its jails has been made by Palestinian militants who captured another Israeli soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit, last month. (Watch gunfire and smoke as Israeli troops enter southern Lebanon -- 2:55)

Nasrallah said the two soldiers taken Wednesday had been moved to "a faraway place." 

Israel has exchanged prisoners with Hezbollah before, most recently in 2004. But this time, Israeli leaders have said there will be no deals. 

Olmert told reporters that the killings and abductions were "not a terror attack but an operation of a sovereign state without any reason or provocation."

Olmert said the Hezbollah attacks were an "act of war" and blamed the Lebanese government, which he said would be held responsible.

The prime minister promised a "very painful and far-reaching" response, The Associated Press reported.


There have been only sporadic border clashes since Israel withdrew its forces from southern Lebanon in 2000 after 22 years of occupation.

Three of the seven soldiers who were killed Wednesday died during fighting with Hezbollah along the Israeli-Lebanese border, and four were killed later as Israeli troops moved into southern Lebanon, said Israel Defense Forces. 

The Israel Defense Forces urged citizens in northern villages to take shelter as the violence escalated. Four Israeli civilians and six soldiers have been wounded in the fighting so far, the IDF reported. 

In a claim broadcast on Hezbollah's television channel, Hezbollah said it had "destroyed" an Israeli tank crossing into the region. 

Thunder and smoke
The valleys along the Israeli-Lebanese border thundered with artillery fire and clouds of blue-gray smoke could be seen rising above Lebanese positions.

Israeli forces, observers said, were bombing roads, bridges and guerrilla positions in southern Lebanon in an attempt to prevent guerrillas from moving the troops deeper into Lebanon.

Israeli forces are also responding to rocket attacks fired by Hezbollah into northern Israel, according to the army.

Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, the chief of Israel's Northern Command, told reporters that Israel had "expanded and comprehensive plans" to battle Hezbollah in Lebanon, and said dozens of Hezbollah targets had been hit already.

"This affair is between Israel and the state of Lebanon," he said. "Where to attack? Once it is inside Lebanon, everything is legitimate -- not just southern Lebanon, not just the line of Hezbollah posts." 

Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria and Iran
U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice condemned Hezbollah for its action and singled out Syria, which she said has a "special responsibility to use its influence to support a positive outcome."

State Department officials said the United States recognizes that there is little the Lebanese government can do to control Hezbollah. 

While the United States sees Lebanon's government, which includes Hezbollah in its Cabinet, as an important interlocutor with Hezbollah, State Department officials have said they recognize that Lebanon does not have the capacity to expand its authority into the south, where Hezbollah has control.

These officials said the United States is holding Syria and Iran responsible for support of Hezbollah. 

'We will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years'
Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Dan Halutz told Israeli Channel 10, "If the soldiers are not returned we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years." 

It is the latest skirmish between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon, whose forces traded cross-border fire in late May following the assassination of an Islamic Jihad official in the southern Lebanese city of Sidon.

Mahmoud Majzoub, also known as Abu Hamza, was killed in a car bombing, which Islamic Jihad blamed on Israel. Israel denied any involvement in the incident.

Hezbollah is designated a terrorist group by the United States and Israel but is a significant player in Lebanon's fractious politics.

Israel set up a security buffer zone in southern Lebanon from 1978 until 2000.

CNN's Elise Labott contributed to this report.

Copyright 2006 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.


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## Colin Parkinson (12 Jul 2006)

They should start bombing Syrian infastructure as well.


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## Clément Barbeau Vermet (13 Jul 2006)

In English, we say 
pin them down
pound them up
That's it?


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## Zell_Dietrich (13 Jul 2006)

gee,  does escalating the conflict play exactly into some people's plans?  Yes.  Can the Israelis respond in any other way? Not really.  (they could take off the kid gloves and level every building in Gaza - after giving notice but that's just bad PR)  Is Israel showing a hundred thousand times more restraint than Canada would?  More than we would and more than we have.  I say the hawks on both sides are itching for this conflict,  but I don't think it will happen full scale... with that said I'm still glad we're not in the Golan Heights any more  ;D  

Am I a bad person for not feeling too sorry for the Palestinians, as a group,  who elected that government that brought this on them?  I want to cheer for the under dog so much, (the Irish in me)  but I just can't in this case.  With that said,  every time I want to go  "wow" at the fireworks on TV I remember http://www.rootsweb.com/~fianna/history/east1916.html


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## Clément Barbeau Vermet (13 Jul 2006)

Hezbollah lunched about 100 rockets today on civilian targets in Israel, killing 2 and wonding about 100. Israel said it will bomb Beirut if the terrorists want to test Tzahal's will.

http://www.infolive.tv/index.php?chgLang=40


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## Colin Parkinson (13 Jul 2006)

Consider this

The snatch likely took months of planning.

The tunnel used in Gaza to attack the post would also take months to dig and plan.

Egypt’s President was quoted as saying that “other unnamed parties” were pressuring Hamas not to accept a deal to hand over the prisoner just a day so before the Hezbollah attack.

Syria just signed a pact with Iran to help each other, Iran is god father of Hezbollah, who also wants to gain a foothold in Palestine. If the IDF weakens Hamas, they could step in.

So one could suppose that:

A)	Hamas and Hezbollah planned this whole thing.
B)	Hezbollah launched a previously planned attack to take advantage of the situation


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## paracowboy (13 Jul 2006)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Consider this
> 
> The snatch likely took months of planning.
> 
> ...


don't be absurd. Only the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy could create a plan that machiavellian. It's obviously Halliburton's fault.


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## zipperhead_cop (14 Jul 2006)

Colin P said:
			
		

> A)	Hamas and Hezbollah planned this whole thing.
> B)	Hezbollah launched a previously planned attack to take advantage of the situation



One could also suppose that Hamas and Hezbollah have a burning desire to be bombed back into the stone age.


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## KevinB (14 Jul 2006)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> don't be absurd. Only the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy could create a plan that machiavellian. It's obviously Halliburton's fault.



 ;D


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## Scoobie Newbie (14 Jul 2006)

Aren't they already in the stoneage.


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## CanadaPhil (14 Jul 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> .......Am I a bad person for not feeling too sorry for the Palestinians, as a group,  who elected that government that brought this on them?  I want to cheer for the under dog so much, (the Irish in me)  but I just can't in this case.



Yep... For me it's this....

One of the VIVID memories etched into my mind on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, was a live news piece showing thousands of Palestinians with smiles from ear to ear dancing and singing in the streets over the news that 3,000 Americans and westerners (including 2 dozen of our own) had just been brutally murdered by Islamic terrorists. 

An embarrassed Arafat then sent out his paramilitary armed with riot battons to disperse them so that he wouldn't be embarrassed. This was then followed by the usual meaningless paper fluff  stating "We condemn this terrible act".


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## couchcommander (15 Jul 2006)

People's Daily is reporting that activities in central Gaza have ended:

Source: http://english.people.com.cn/200607/15/eng20060715_283258.html



> The Israeli army has completed its activities in central Gaza Strip, the army said in a statement Friday night.
> 
> The statement said the army has been operating in Khan Yunis and Dir El-Balah areas in central Gaza Strip since July 12 to create conditions for the return of abducted soldier Gilad Shalit and preventing rocket attacks launched from the areas against Israel.
> 
> ...


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## couchcommander (15 Jul 2006)

Above confirmed by reuters. Activities continuing in the north.  Palestinians are reporting tanks entering the area.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-07-15T205805Z_01_L15445283_RTRUKOC_0_UK-MIDEAST-TANKS.xml


> GAZA (Reuters) - Several Israeli tanks on Saturday entered the northern Gaza Strip, often used by militants for firing rockets into Israel, Palestinian witnesses said.
> 
> The Israeli army said it did not have forces in northern Gaza.
> 
> ...


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## CanadaPhil (18 Jul 2006)

For anyone who would like a truthful backgrounder into the real nature of Hamas.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UgzB5n3Cuv0&search=hamas

I find the scenes with the brainwashed children particularly repugnant.

Its no wonder they are on our TERRORIST LIST.


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## zipperhead_cop (23 Jul 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> For anyone who would like a truthful backgrounder into the real nature of Hamas.
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=UgzB5n3Cuv0&search=hamas
> 
> ...



In the face of that, how could anyone seriously argue that diplomacy has any place in this mess?  They have to fight it out.  Pure and simple.  Keep fighting until there is a clear winner, and put an end to this.


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Jul 2006)

Gotta love the sheep that call themselves Canadians that feel the gov't took the same stance as the Americans just to appease Bush.


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## zipperhead_cop (24 Jul 2006)

Quagmire said:
			
		

> Gotta love the sheep that call themselves Canadians that feel the gov't took the same stance as the Americans just to appease Bush.



I'm sure the ostrich feels very safe and secure with his head jammed in the ground as well.


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## ArmyRick (24 Jul 2006)

Watching that one idiot rant and yell in front of an audience about martyrdom and all that crap (too bad the leaders don't lead by example and blow themselves up).

It reminds me of Hitler stirring up my ancestors in Germany. Similar tone, same angry movements and resolve. However, my family looks at Hitler for what he was, an EVIL dictator. 

I will probably be flame broiled for comparing that ranting idiot to Hitler but hey, he is embracing absolute and total violence agaisnt an ethnicity (Israelis who are Jewish).

It is not the west who is full of hate and unable to accept other cultures, it is these religous zealots.


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## I_am_John_Galt (25 Jul 2006)

ArmyRick: I'm sure you must be mistaken ... they are just all waving at the same time:  http://www.time.com/time/photoessays/2006/inside_hizballah/


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## CanadaPhil (27 Jul 2006)

Its 11:15am on Thursday the 27th.

CNN has just reported that the Associated Press is claiming the release of Cpl. Shalit may be IMMINENT!

I have not found any links about this on the web yet.


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Jul 2006)

Found one story.  Here are some excerpts

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292014326&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
However, the armed wing of Hamas, Izaddin al-Kassam, which is believed to be holding Shalit together with other groups in the Gaza Strip, denied that it had agreed to release the soldier. The group said it did not know what Abbas was talking about and that Shalit would be released only after Israel meets all the demands of the kidnappers. 

Former PA security commander Jibril Rajoub, who serves as an advisor to Abbas, said he expected Shalit to be released sometime next week. 
Rajoub claimed that Hamas has agreed to release Shalit on condition that Israel stopped its military operations and freed a number of Palestinian prisoners.

I wouldn't hold your breath if Hamas is asking for much more than a cease fire.  I think Israel already ruled out prisoner exchange.


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## Scoobie Newbie (28 Jul 2006)

They have thus far ruled out a prisoner exchange.  I wonder if they got there boys back if they would leave immediately.


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## I_am_John_Galt (28 Jul 2006)

Nope.



> *Hamas clarifies Abbas remarks on Israeli soldier*
> Updated Thu. Jul. 27 2006 11:33 PM ET
> 
> Associated Press
> ...


 http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060727/mideast_shalit_060727/20060727/


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Jul 2006)

What is there to negotiate?  Give the guys back.  Period.  
If nothing else, once they were back that would be a big chip off the table.  IMO Israel is going to settle this once and for all, regardless of those guys that got grabbed.  However, in the court of public opinion it would work in the terrorists favor, since they would have done "their part" and everyone could get back to screaming and whining about Israeli "aggression" when they didn't pull out.  
Cripes, it must suck to be those guys, if they aren't dead already.


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## I_am_John_Galt (28 Jul 2006)

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> What is there to negotiate?  Give the guys back.  Period.



100% 



> If nothing else, once they were back that would be a big chip off the table.  IMO Israel is going to settle this once and for all, regardless of those guys that got grabbed.  However, in the court of public opinion it would work in the terrorists favor, since they would have done "their part" and everyone could get back to screaming and whining about Israeli "aggression" when they didn't pull out.



I suspect that there's something about rockets being shot at you for few decades that makes you no longer give a crap about public opinion in other countries.


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## zipperhead_cop (28 Jul 2006)

I_am_John_Galt said:
			
		

> I suspect that there's something about rockets being shot at you for few decades that makes you no longer give a crap about public opinion in other countries.



Agreed.  But these terrorists have such a swell of support from the crybaby left, that would be a good psychological tactic.  You and I both know that there would be heaps of people who would say "Okay, you got your guy back, now stop everything and leave".


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## CanadaPhil (3 Aug 2006)

No posts in this thread for sometime. Poor Hamas must be feeling so left out right now.

Here is what a Hamas member had to say on July 27th. 

Muhammad Nazzal, Hamas Political Bureau Member: If Al-Qaeda Wants to Come to Palestine, They Are Welcome

http://www.memritv.org/view.asp?P1=1215


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## Fishbone Jones (3 Aug 2006)

It's reopened, but if it starts going like the other it won't be for long. Don't just make links to blogs and propaganda sites, make a point. One that can be backed up and verified with fact.


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## CanadaPhil (4 Aug 2006)

?? Propaganda site?

That was a clip of what Middle Easterners are watching on a daily basis on networks such as Al Manar, Al Arabiya, Al Jezeera, Palestine TV, etc. 

It has been translated into English (Very accurately, btw), for the benefit of those of us here in North America who have ONLY heard the "propaganda" until now. 

It has to be backed up?? . It is a prominent member of Hamas, saying in his own words, on live Arabic TV (only a few days ago), that Hamas WELCOMES AL QAEDA to Gaza in order to launch terror operations against Israel. 

That's what he said. I don't know what spin can be put on it. 

It wasn't an American or Israeli or European reporter misquoting him in print. It was straight from the horses mouth. 

Perhaps Tamouh should chime in on this one so that we can debate the clip. Afterall, only a few weeks ago when this all started, he was posting in this very thread taking the Hamas point of view.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Aug 2006)

Get off your high horse. I was setting general parameters for the thread. If I was going to single you out for something, you'd be the first to know about it.


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## zipperhead_cop (4 Aug 2006)

CanadaPhil said:
			
		

> No posts in this thread for sometime. Poor Hamas must be feeling so left out right now.
> 
> Here is what a Hamas member had to say on July 27th.
> Muhammad Nazzal, Hamas Political Bureau Member: If Al-Qaeda Wants to Come to Palestine, They Are Welcome
> http://www.memritv.org/view.asp?P1=1215



Wow.  I thought the Yemeni president had shifty eyes!  That guy would be hilarious for a polygraph interview.  

Wouldn't it be ironic justice if they welcomed Al Qaeda, only to find the they had lost control of their own area and were eliminated by a bigger rat?  Some nice inter-terrorist organization fighting would go nicely right about now.


----------

