# Sailors don't wear CADPAT direction by CANFORGEN



## gwp

CANFORGEN 198/09 VCDS 031 191500Z NOV 09
WEARING OF NAVAL COMBAT DRESS
UNCLASSIFIED

THE WEARING OF CADPAT BY CF PERS IN LODGER AND INTEGRAL UNITS IN GARRISONS, BASES AND DOCKYARDS ACROSS CANADA REMINDS US EVERYDAY THAT THE CF IS A GLOBALLY DEPLOYED FORCE. IT ALSO REMINDS US, AS WELL AS THE CANADIAN PUBLIC WE SERVE, THAT THE FOCUS OF ALL OUR EFFORTS IS TO SUPPORT OUR MEN AND WOMEN IN CF OPERATIONS AT HOME AND ABROAD 


THIS INITIATIVE HAS BEEN A TREMENDOUS SUCCESS IN HELPING THE CF AS WHOLE TO CONNECT WITH CANADIANS. AT THE SAME TIME, HOWEVER, THE WEARING OF CADPAT HAS MADE THE NAVY LESS VISIBLE TO THE PUBLIC. CANADIANS MUST SEE MORE OF THEIR NAVY IF WE ARE TO SUPPORT THE VERY SUBSTANTIAL EFFORTS NOW UNDERWAY ACROSS THE DND / CF TO REVERSE THE TRENDS OF THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS AND ATTRACT CANADIANS TO A CAREER IN THE NAVY. MOREOVER, AS THE NAVY PREPARES TO CELEBRATE 100 YEARS OF SERVICE TO CANADA NEXT YEAR, IT IS TIMELY THAT THE CF VISIBLY DEMONSTRATES ITS SUPPORT FOR OUR MEN AND WOMEN AT SEA 


ACCORDINGLY, CF MEMBERS ENTITLED TO THE NAVAL DISTINCTIVE ENVIRONMENTAL UNIFORM (DEU) ARE HEREBY DIRECTED TO WEAR NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) IN LIEU OF CADPAT, WHERE THE CADPAT IS PERMITTED BY COMDS AND CO S AS THE DRESS OF THE DAY. EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CANFORGEN ARE PERMITTED FOR VALID OPERATIONAL REASONS ONLY, INCL EMPL IN ACTUAL FIELD OPS, FIELD TRG ACTIVITIES OR OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS


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## medicineman

:rofl:   I think I'm going to start wearing my NCD's  again with all my CADPAT accoutrements...Love mixing and matching uniforms...

MM


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## FDO

I know a few sailors in Armyland that are happy now. CPM has had this in effect for the last couple of years. Glad to see the rest finally caught up!


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## medaid

Waste of time and energy.


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## Occam

Wait for it....I won't be surprised in the slightest if the next announcement will be for sailors to be wearing salt and peppers as mandatory walking out rig, just like they did for the 75th in 1985.


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## gcclarke

MedTech said:
			
		

> Waste of time and energy.



Waste of time and energy issuing sailors CADPAT whenever they're posted anywhere where they actually don't need it due to field exercises and the like? Yes, I agree. 

Frankly, the habit of the various commands forcing their sailors to wear CADPAT into the office was definitely one of my pet peeves. I'm glad to see it's being rectified.


			
				Occam said:
			
		

> Wait for it....I won't be surprised in the slightest if the next announcement will be for sailors to be wearing salt and peppers as mandatory walking out rig, just like they did for the 75th in 1985.



That sounds to me to be the type of move that could quickly escalate into a bun-fight between CMS and whoever is the Level 1 for whatever CO issued that particular order. I'd like to think that our organization has developed enough in the last 24 years that a CO wouldn't go out of his way to punish sailors under his command just for the fact that they are sailors.


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## Michael OLeary

MedTech said:
			
		

> Waste of time and energy.



Not at all, think of the time saved explaining scuffed boots and poor drill to Sergeants Major all across the country.   >


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## Occam

gcclarke said:
			
		

> That sounds to me to be the type of move that could quickly escalate into a bun-fight between CMS and whoever is the Level 1 for whatever CO issued that particular order. I'd like to think that our organization has developed enough in the last 24 years that a CO wouldn't go out of his way to punish sailors under his command just for the fact that they are sailors.



I actually meant that I wouldn't be surprised if CMS issued the order for salt 'n peppers....and it extends to all those in the Naval uniform, wherever they may be (except, of course, those in CADPAT for operational reasons).


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## Halifax Tar

Thank god! 

Can anyone PM me directions to find a hard copy of this message ?


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## kratz

On a DIN computer follow this link: http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2009/198-09_e.asp


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## medaid

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Not at all, think of the time saved explaining scuffed boots and poor drill to Sergeants Major all across the country.   >



 > AGREED!


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## gcclarke

Occam said:
			
		

> I actually meant that I wouldn't be surprised if CMS issued the order for salt 'n peppers....and it extends to all those in the Naval uniform, wherever they may be (except, of course, those in CADPAT for operational reasons).



Considering that he just recently authorized ball-caps for walking out gear for all personnel wearing NCDs as the Dress of the Day, this hardly seems to be the trend. Seems to me that the message is to emphasize the sea-going aspect of our job, rather than make us all wear gear suitable only for working in an office.

Of course, wait a year and everything could change again


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## armyvern

FDO said:
			
		

> I know a few sailors in Armyland that are happy now. CPM has had this in effect for the last couple of years. Glad to see the rest finally caught up!



No worries, it'll still be taking up space in their closets for wear during those couple days a week tac vest marches and ruck marches for PT, 10 weeks of WU for BFTs, BFTs, stints of a couple weeks doing their annual range quals, IBTS trg etc etc. All those in 1st line units, in the Army are considered "operational" ... after all, then you've got those ASU/ASG folks ... they are indeed collecting that brand spanking new Field Operational Allowance - be hard to collect that "entitled to it because I'm employed in an operational field position" money on one hand while attempting to argue with the other that they aren't "field" wouldn't it?

I think it'd be even more interesting if this followed through to an actual ... be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Need more visibility of the Navy? How about posting some of those black DEU wearing purple trades to the rest of Canada for a change instead of having a whole lot of them linger around two coast-specific confined areas for the duration of their careers ...


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## armyvern

Next on the Agenda: Brand spanking new blue cadpat for the AF (because apparently blue berets [nor black ones, nor white peak caps ... for the Navy folk] and wedges may not be enough, or the blue DEU [or black DEU for the Navy] they wear during times they actually are on parade in front of the general public ...) ... they must have an anniversary coming up too ... as does the Army. I think all 3 elements have one of those each annually.

But good on the CMP for timing this announcement for the big 100th, makes it just that wee bit more justified.


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## Halifax Tar

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> No worries, it'll still be taking up space in their closets for wear during those couple days a week tac vest marches and ruck marches for PT, 10 weeks of WU for BFTs, BFTs, stints of a couple weeks doing their annual range quals, IBTS trg etc etc. All those in 1st line units, in the Army are considered "operational" ... after all, then you've got those ASU/ASG folks ... they are indeed collecting that brand spanking new Field Operational Allowance - be hard to collect that "entitled to it because I'm employed in an operational field position" money on one hand while attempting to argue with the other that they aren't "field" wouldn't it?
> 
> I think it'd be even more interesting if this followed through to an actual ... be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
> 
> Need more visibility of the Navy? How about posting some of those black DEU wearing purple trades to the rest of Canada for a change instead of having a whole lot of them linger around two coast-specific confined areas for the duration of their careers ...



You sound a little Jealous Vern! All the more reason to encourage an end to this ridiculous experiment we call unification that's gone on for what 40 years ? Finally put some meaning back into our CHOSEN elements wouldn't you agree ? Probably not but alas the day is coming, can  you feel it ? I can! 

Besides the way I read that message is its for people who are posted to a 2nd or 3rd line unit, not first... Some place like an area HQ or depot of sorts.


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## Halifax Tar

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Next on the Agenda: Brand spanking new blue cadpat for the AF (because apparently blue berets [nor black ones, nor white peak caps ... for the Navy folk] and wedges may not be enough, or the blue DEU [or black DEU for the Navy] they wear during times they actually are on parade in front of the general public ...) ... they must have an anniversary coming up too ... as does the Army. I think all 3 elements have one of those each annually.
> 
> But good on the CMP for timing this announcement for the big 100th, makes it just that wee bit more justified.



Seriously Vern ? Come on... Does this really bother you that much ? What effect does it have on your daily life ? Except that perhaps you have no reason to mistake a LS for a CPL anymore ?

Embrace the change Vern! Embrace the change!


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## armyvern

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Seriously Vern ? Come on... Does this really bother you that much ? What effect does it have on your daily life ? Except that perhaps you have no reason to mistake a LS for a CPL anymore ?
> 
> Embrace the change Vern! Embrace the change!



I've never mistaken a LS for a Cpl ... I can read, and tell colours, and know and respect my subordinates. But thanks. That is also reciprocal ... no more mistaking Cpls for LS on those naval bases eh?

However, from personal experience (and stated by me on this forum before) - sailors (supervisors included) used to love calling my OD (I'm sure you know that slang), then AB, then killick back in the days of my posting at a certain naval establishment. That was back in the days of course when we had to wear our DEU to and from the workplace and switch into our work dress upon arrival and prior to departure ... apparently my blue uniform wasn't a big enough hint that I wasn't "an Ordinary Dummy" nor an "Able Seaman." <--- and that is the story that had me bringing up the blue/black comments below ...

Funny that you quote the jokey bit ... but don't feel it necessary to comment on the other bits:

No the policy doesn't bother me at all. So what do you think about the "Field Operational Allowance" bit? Are they ... or aren't they?

Or, about the bit where if the Navy wants "visibility to Canadians", then start posting some of those black DEU wearing purple trades to locations other than Halifax/Esquimault (with the odd 1 or 2 at an Army base, and some at HQs etc) ... I know a purple Sup tech who wears black who was with me in Halifax in 88 and he's been there ever since ... hard to get visibility of your element out to "Canadians" that way n'est pas?


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## Halifax Tar

I didn't bother quoting as I think it would have been just to lengthy but I will answers your Qs 

1) I did quote the serious bits and comment just to to the bottom of page 1 to read them. 

2)"So what do you think about the "Field Operational Allowance" bit? Are they ... or aren't they?"
I like this because it means while I'm posted to a "field unit", like now, my sea time counts and I get the extra benefit for putting up with the extra crap that come along with a first line posting. And It works in reverse for the Sup Tech who's spent umpteen years in the field he doesn't start at the bottom for sea pay nor should he. I think this is a move in the right direction! 

3) I personally think we should all be posted our elements. I would like to see the services separated and the Royal put back into the Canadian Navy. I would like to see the MS and below go to a more traditional square rig for a DEU. 

BUT 

That's not the way it is, is it ? I don't want to comment on anyone careers. There is such thing as the Nova Scotia Armed Forces I know. And truly I cant blame them completely. If the CM is going to leave people in one spot for 10+ years how do expect them to be able to move easily in all reality. 

Think about the CMS. He has invested 10 years of training and experience dollars in me to become a valuable member of the Maritime service.  Now at the whim of someone in Ottawa he will loose that experience for no better reason than because. Now multiply that by the amount of people posted, times years at sea and in the naval area of supply and that a good sized number. 

It works both ways for the CLS, CAS and CMS. One more reason for environmental postings I think. Think of the money saved too! And think of each environments ability to now wash away those unwilling to fulfill the requirements of that service! No sailing = No pay check, no field time = no pay check. This giving the ability to lose the dead weight and let the able and willing to move ahead should their competence so decide. 


I can feel it coming I really can.


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## Sub_Guy

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Or, about the bit where if the Navy wants "visibility to Canadians", then start posting some of those black DEU wearing purple trades to locations other than Halifax/Esquimault (with the odd 1 or 2 at an Army base, and some at HQs etc) ... I know a purple Sup tech who wears black who was with me in Halifax in 88 and he's been there ever since ... hard to get visibility of your element out to "Canadians" that way n'est pas?



Well the Navy does have a reserve unit in nearly every major Canadian city, so visibility is a non issue.  I agree with Tar, Purple trades should be posted to their elements and only moved out upon request of the member.


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## COBRA-6

Just in time for the Olympics, hmmm....


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## medaid

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> Well the Navy does have a reserve unit in nearly every major Canadian city, so visibility is a non issue.  I agree with Tar, Purple trades should be posted to their elements and only moved out upon request of the member.



I don't agree with Halifax Tar one single bit. The reason is that the Purple trades don't belong to anyone but their BRANCH. That's why the CSS trades all wear BRANCH insignia NOT element insignia. They are a clerk, doc, nurse, medtech, PSEL, PAFF, MP etc etc etc FIRST. Their uniform is SECONDARY. Want to be in the Navy? Join a hard sea trade. You can't have the best of both worlds.


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## Monsoon

MedTech said:
			
		

> I don't agree with Halifax Tar one single bit. The reason is that the Purple trades don't belong to anyone but their BRANCH. That's why the CSS trades all wear BRANCH insignia NOT element insignia. They are a clerk, doc, nurse, medtech, PSEL, PAFF, MP etc etc etc FIRST. Their uniform is SECONDARY. Want to be in the Navy? Join a hard sea trade. You can't have the best of both worlds.


So what is the dress of the day for people in the "purple" trades? According to VCDS, it's NCDs if you've opted for the Navy DEU. Want to be in the Army? Join one of the Combat Arms... or opt for the Army DEU when you join. But no one who decided to wear the Navy DEU should be surprised that they have to wear the uniform they chose.


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## PuckChaser

To further increase recruiting potential, Navy pers will now be required to sell their cars, and can only get to work using bass boats.


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## FDO

A couple of comments first I would like to know what ASU's are getting FDA? My wife works at ASU Toronto and doesn't get it! She was told she would HAVE to wear CADPAT when she got here because ASU Toronto was an "Operational Unit" just no FDA. Now she's a happy camper or will be when she digs her NCDs out of the bottom of the closet and shakes out the wrinkles. 

Also Mabe if the sailors get back to wearing something more fitting with their chosen element you'd see more sailors inland. The next problem we have is getting the NCDs inland. I have had an order in for 3 months for NCDs. I got a message from the Binrats yesterday saying that all the NCDs have gone out west for the Olympics so I'll have to wait a little longer.

It's going to be shock to some of the purple trade folks when they actually have to put on NCDs for the first time. I know a couple here in TO that have been "Navy" for several years and never seen saltwater. It's going to be fun. I know how much CADPAT people HATE having to iron!


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## Neill McKay

MedTech said:
			
		

> I don't agree with Halifax Tar one single bit. The reason is that the Purple trades don't belong to anyone but their BRANCH. That's why the CSS trades all wear BRANCH insignia NOT element insignia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such thing as element insignia.  All CF members wear branch (or regimental) insignia.  (Hard sea trades wear the Naval Operations Branch cap badge, e.g.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They are a clerk, doc, nurse, medtech, PSEL, PAFF, MP etc etc etc FIRST. Their uniform is SECONDARY.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose that's a matter of opinion, but the usual rhetoric is that one is a sailor (or soldier) first, tradesman second, regardless of where one serves.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## medaid

N. McKay said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as element insignia.  All CF members wear branch (or regimental) insignia.  (Hard sea trades wear the Naval Operations Branch cap badge, e.g.)



So I guess you just said what I said again? My point was that there is no such thing as element accouterments. As purple is purple.


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## CountDC

ok two ways to go with this

a fourth uniform for the purple trades!!  Maybe Donnie Osmond will design it. 

Go back to the old way of navy scribe, combat arms clerk and air force secretary.

Personnally I think it is about time they did this.  Absolutely no reason that a member of the Navy can not wear NCDs for their regular work day and CADPAT when needed.  Ranges - CADPAT is not needed, I have worn my NCDs everytime.  As for posting inland - if all the "sailors" were to wear NCDs instead of CADPAT you may actually find there are more than you realize.  Black Beret does not make one stand out as navy if wearing CADPAT.

Now if I could just convince them to let the NCR wear ballcaps I would be really happy.


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## medaid

Funny we're only hearing from those who've got such a BIG problem with wearing CADPAT. I've met more then my share of sailors who LOVE wearing CADPAT. Stating that they don't have to iron the damn things, it's good to go even if it's a little dirty, and feels that their OD with BLACK threaded accouterments, along with their BLACK t-shrits, BLACK berets, and a generally happy outlook makes them stand out amongst their Army peers. 

I personally think ironing NCDs have got to be the dumbest thing ever, and yes I wear NCDs... and I think they're of the poorest design. But that's another thread all together. 

I will reiterate that purples do not belong to the element, they belong to their BRANCH! I HIGHLY doubt that they'll EVER split up the BRANCHES into their individual elements again. It's pointless and we gain nothing from it, other then more ignorance from people in the same MOC who've never done anything their peers have. 

Its a freaking work dress. I don't hear this much griping from Army/Air Force pers in NCDs  : maybe they're just more savvy at adaptation and change then the Naval element and understands that despite being Army/Air Force by uniform, they're their MOC first.


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## Monsoon

MedTech said:
			
		

> I will reiterate that purples do not belong to the element, they belong to their BRANCH! I HIGHLY doubt that they'll EVER split up the BRANCHES into their individual elements again. It's pointless and we gain nothing from it, other then more ignorance from people in the same MOC who've never done anything their peers have.
> 
> Its a freaking work dress. I don't hear this much griping from Army/Air Force pers in NCDs  : maybe they're just more savvy at adaptation and change then the Naval element and understands that despite being Army/Air Force by uniform, they're their MOC first.


The purple branches are "owned" by CMP. CMP has decided that the uniform for people within his L1 is the DEU _that they chose when they joined the CF_. Why would the work dress of people in the purple trades would be anything other than the work dress of their DEU? Specific operational requirements notwithstanding, of course - but I don't buy that a militia brigade HQ is an "operational" unit by mere virtue of some mindset that they may wish to encourage.

While some purple folk may be upset that they had to join the Navy to get their chosen MOS, most people picked the Navy DEU because they wanted to identify with the Navy, and will be happy to wear the Navy combat dress. This is nothing but good news for this silent majority.


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## dapaterson

Of course, most should be wearing DEUs (short sleeve) vice NCD or CADPAT; the dot COMs and Land Staff in Ottawa are the worst.

NCD and CADPAT are significantly more expensive than DEU, and look less absurd as office wear.  Of course, the hard-luck staff would have to start taking pride in their appearance, buy and iron and some shoe polish, but that's a small price to pay.

(And nothing looks as bad as CADPAT bursting at the seams)


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## McG

My solution to the whole navy visibility thing would be that every L1 and L2 staff or HQ should be in DEU.  For the Army, that mean the Bdes & CTC would be in combats but that LFDTS & the area HQs would be DEU.

Operational clothing would be dictated by the unit one is attached to.  Therefore, Army guys required to wear operational clothing at a MARCOM unit in Halifax would be in NCDs.  Sailors required to wear operational clothing in an Air Command uniform in Cold Lake would wear the Air Force Cadpat. Etc.

Operational clothing is not about showing one's environment's flag.  The clothing exists to fit an operational function.  Wearing the clothing in an environment other than what we bought it for could result in risk to operations (FOD from uniforms not designed for an airfield), risk to personnel safety (static electricity or burns in uniforms not designed to protect for these), higher costs (as uniforms wear in places that extra durability was not designed), risk to personnel health (as boots not designed for marching chew apart feet), and so on.  If none of this is a concern to you, then you might be in a job that could be wearing DEU instead.


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## Monsoon

MCG said:
			
		

> Operational clothing would be dictated by the unit one is attached to.


The tricky part is when you get to the "purple" units - SJS, 4 HSvcGp HQ, or 3 CSG, for instance. The dress would have to be mix-and-match because the unit is inherently joint.


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## Fishbone Jones

CountDC said:
			
		

> Black Beret does not make one stand out as navy if wearing CADPAT.



Especially when that beret properly, and traditionally, belongs to the Armoured Corps :



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> Now if I could just convince them to let the NCR wear ballcaps I would be really happy.



So would us tankers.


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## McG

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> The tricky part is when you get to the "purple" units - SJS, 4 HSvcGp HQ, or 3 CSG, for instance. The dress would have to be mix-and-match because the unit is inherently joint.


SJS= L1 HQ  - Not an issue here as they can all be in DEU.
4 H Svc Gp - Do these pers not wear "traditional" hospital clothing when operating within the clinics?  Those working behind desks can then switch to DEU.   

Yes, there will be a few odd-ball units (like the supply depots) which are purple yet require a working dress.  If one wants to set a policy that in these few locations a person will wear the working dress of their environment, then fine.  However, for the most part, a unit fits within (and operates within) a specific environment and that unit should therefore be wearing the clothing designed for that environment.


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## armyvern

recceguy said:
			
		

> Especially when that beret properly, and traditionally, belongs to the Armoured Corps :
> 
> So would us tankers.



So it does; I fully agree with you on that point - I'm still amazed that the black beret was ever authorized to be worn by those of the naval enviornment as are many tankers that I know. 

I can though, despite the protestations of some, still distinguish (quite easily) between soldiers, sailors and airmen/airwomen wearing olive drab, blue or black t-shirts ... they are quite obviously different in colour and are actually very conducive to figuring out who is "what" ... as are the slip-ons, nametapes etc etc.

It just seems to me that the only purple trades that are "really" purple are the Army and AF sporting DEU ones ... being that we wear and continue to wear NCDs when posted aboard ships etc ... apparently, it's not reciprocal.

For the poster who said Donny Osmond could design us purple folks a uniform (how's that for respecting someone's uniform/Branch??) ... It's really a quite simple problem to solve - given that your sailor Sup Tech is a Logistician who is and will continue to be subject to posting to any of the three enviornments "as part and parecl of the job description he voluntarily enrolled into the CF under" ... simply do the same for us purple folk as we do for band members ...

Issue us all three. We all get a "home" enviornment DEU to wear for those times when we're posted with HQs or 3rd line Depots etc; and, when we get posted to a Naval establishment, or Air, or Land - we get the uniform of that particular enviornment to wear for the duration of our employment there only while we are employed there ... as they do NOT "own" us (just as neither the LF, nor the AF, nor the Navy "owns" the CFSS system program so can not direct any changes to it) - we are purple. It really is that simple. We retain the other DEUs/Op dress for career just in case we do 2 tours with the navy etc.


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## vonGarvin

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Some might say the "red headed step child."  ;D


Isn't it "kick a Ginger" day?   >


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## armyvern

A history lesson ...

http://www.dragoons.ca/historicalsummary.html

These 'guys' existed long before the first "tank" was introduced in Canada ... I believe that the tankers of the Essex Regiment were the 1st to commence wearing the black beret circa '36 - and they chose the black beret because it was the colour of the beret worn by the Royal Tank Corps of the British Army ... it had nothing to do with sailors manning tanks during WW1 - at which time sailors didn't wear berets, nor did Armoured folk wear black berets. 

I'm curious as to how you link the authorization to wear black berets by Naval pers (which occured in the 1990s and long after the Armoured Corps had been granted authority for such headdress) to such?  A "traditional" head-dress of the Navy?

Perhaps, it was correct earlier, & a point I'll agree on - a return to the days of the tradtional naval square-rigs/head-dress (the round cap, sans peak) would bring even greater "visibility" to the Cdn Navy and would most certainly be in keeping with actual Naval traditions. I liked those hats, and the square rig upon the men were defintely eye-catching.


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## armyvern

Technoviking said:
			
		

> Isn't it "kick a Ginger" day?   >



Nah, that was last Friday ( ), but I'm willing to be your red-headed stepchild.  ;D


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## Fishbone Jones

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I know some of the foregoing was said in jest, however the black beret belongs to both the Navy and Armoured Corps. During WWI tanks were originally crewed by Naval Gunners and stokers (Churchill was responsible for the wpn's development and was 1st Sea Lord). When the tank corps was finally formed, the black head dress worn during the war was continued as the beret.
> 
> I know there are fables about Belgian school girls and other such nonsense, but history is quite clear that the Armoured Corps is a child of the Navy.
> 
> Some might say the "red headed step child."  ;D
> 
> 
> Edited for format.



That is a pretty tenuous stretch. The black beret, as stated, was originally brought into use, in Canada (1937), by the Essex Regiment (Tank), now the Windsor Regiment (RCAC) and has absoulutely nothing to do with the navy. Being the first newly formed tank regiment, it did not have a precursor headress like the ones formed from reroled infantry units. As such, they were allowed to pick their own headress and chose that of the Royal Tank Regiment. An Army unit.


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## tango22a

Army Vern:

BZ!! You are 100% correct about the black Beret, Having been a member of The Essex Regiment (Tank)'s successor The Windsor Regiment (RCAC), thank you very much!

Cheers,


tango22a


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## Monsoon

MCG said:
			
		

> SJS= L1 HQ  - Not an issue here as they can all be in DEU.
> 4 H Svc Gp - Do these pers not wear "traditional" hospital clothing when operating within the clinics?  Those working behind desks can then switch to DEU.


You'd be surprised how few clinicians there are in the H Svcs branch in comparison to everyone else, but you point is well taken about SJS. In fact, I'll do you one better and suggest that anyone who works in an office and calls themselves a professional should dress like a professional dresses in an office - in a jacket and tie. But I'm sure I'm one of a very few people who feel that way. In any case, there are probably more "oddball" units than you realize, and it's not really reasonable to default to army dress for all of them.

[quote author=ArmyVern]
It just seems to me that the only purple trades that are "really" purple are the Army and AF sporting DEU ones ... being that we wear and continue to wear NCDs when posted aboard ships etc ... apparently, it's not reciprocal.
[/quote]
They wear NCDs on ship because they don't want to be burned alive in the event of a fire. Navy guys wear CADPAT in Afghanistan/Sudan/Golan/where ever because they don't want to stand out. Those are environmental considerations. At Navy shore establishments Army and Air Force types have always worn the combats associated with their DEU; the latest CANFORGEN just makes that reciprocal for Navy pers posted elsewhere in the joint-iverse.

[quote author=ArmyVern]
I'm still amazed that the black beret was ever authorized to be worn by those of the naval enviornment as are many tankers that I know.
[/quote]
And now that ball caps are authorized as walking-out dress, Navy folks can look forward to never wearing that ridiculous scrap of fabric again. Sounds like a win-win!


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## Fishbone Jones

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> And now that ball caps are authorized as walking-out dress, Navy folks can look forward to never wearing that ridiculous scrap of fabric again. Sounds like a win-win!



Yup, just like Skippy, the pump jockey.


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## Monsoon

recceguy said:
			
		

> Yup, just like Skippy, the pump jockey.


While we're trading head dress jibes:






 ;D


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## Fishbone Jones

Pretty close except for the shirt. Stripes make me look fat.

Now for MARS, including the requesite long Lt (Navy) hair..............and NCD hat


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## FDO

Have a look at this MARGEN. NCR and all other units will have to not only allow sailors to wear ballcaps but have to go out and get them (yeah right). What's going to be interesting is what kind of crest are the different units going to come up with to wear on the NCD jacket. And yes If I had my way I'd give my black beret to the Zipperheads, giftwrapped even. It's their tradition not the Navy's. A ballcap and a peakedcap is all I really need. Besides the new berets don't have enough material to form properly. 

http://marcom-comar.mil.ca/Repository/margens/2009/034-09.pdf


----------



## tango22a

FDO:

Thanks, we'll take 'em.....Gift wrapped or not!

This may seem a trivial thing to some of you non-Armour people, but it's a really BIG thing to us zipperheads. Especially when a person calls the Black Beret a "ridiculous scrap of fabric"! It may be ridiculous to you but it's HERITAGE to us!


tango22a 

Edited for quotation and text.


----------



## CountDC

MedTech said:
			
		

> *Funny we're only hearing from those who've got such a BIG problem with wearing CADPAT*.
> 
> Its a freaking work dress. *I don't hear this much griping from Army/Air Force pers in NCDs*  : maybe they're just more savvy at adaptation and change then the Naval element and understands that despite being Army/Air Force by uniform, they're their MOC first.



The only BIG problem with wearing CADPAT that some of us have is that it is not our dress.  If I am not going to the field why do I need it .  Does it make me more productive in the office?  No, so I should be wearing my NCDs. If all these people want to wear CADPAT for no valid reason other than they like it then they should change to army.

As for army/air force in NCDs - I have never seen either posted to a navy base and made to wear NCDs.  Even when the ship was in for refit they wore their blue/green into the shore office. They only wore the NCDs when actually in the ship.  The WO I worked with continued to wear his CADPAT after the ship came out of refit until we were actually scheduled to sail. Should be the same for the Navy - wear the CADPAT when in the field.


----------



## CountDC

recceguy said:
			
		

> Especially when that beret properly, and traditionally, belongs to the Armoured Corps :
> 
> So would us tankers.



Exactly - made that mistake when I was army - asked the PO what armoured unit he belonged with, didn't know anything about navy at the time.


----------



## CountDC

FDO said:
			
		

> Have a look at this MARGEN. NCR and all other units will have to not only allow sailors to wear ballcaps but have to go out and get them (yeah right). What's going to be interesting is what kind of crest are the different units going to come up with to wear on the NCD jacket. And yes If I had my way I'd give my black beret to the Zipperheads, giftwrapped even. It's their tradition not the Navy's. A ballcap and a peakedcap is all I really need. Besides the new berets don't have enough material to form properly.
> 
> http://marcom-comar.mil.ca/Repository/margens/2009/034-09.pdf




ummm no.

Did you miss para 2?

2. THIS POLICY APPLIES TO ALL UNITS CURRENTLY AUTHORIZED BY MARCOM TO ISSUE
BALLCAPS FOR WEAR WITH NAVAL COMBAT DRESS

As for jacket crests - the units aren't going to come up with ones.  For example I am currently at a unit that does not have one so we do not wear a crest and as it is NCR we do not have ballcaps.  It would continue that way if posted to an army unit in Calgary - no ballcap or crest.


----------



## gcclarke

I just love how the whole unification debacle is still managing to bite us in the arse 41 years later. Thanks a lot Mr. Hellyer!


----------



## Navy_Blue

On the being “more visible” note.  The submariners in the mix are expected to be able to wear our covies as walking out dress.  We are planning on dolphins for our ball caps and we might be able to wear our white sweaters through out the dockyard.  I think its far overdue myself.  

Up until now we could only wear our coveralls on NC jetty around the MOG or between the lift and the MOG.


----------



## McG

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> In any case, there are probably more "oddball" units than you realize, and it's not really reasonable to default to army dress for all of them.


If you reread my post which you partially quoted, you will note that I did not sugest people default to "army dress" in the "oddball" units.  In fact, I stated that for those units alone it makes sense to have a policy of wear your environment's operational dress.



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> The only BIG problem with wearing CADPAT that some of us have is that it is not our dress.  If I am not going to the field why do I need it .  Does it make me more productive in the office?  No, so I should be wearing my NCDs.


In the office?!  I think both you and the Army guy beside you should be in DEU if your employment keeps you in an office.


----------



## SeanNewman

I think at the end of the day it's just going to exclude people and make them not feel like part of the team.

Here you've had people acting like and dressing like everyone else they work with (assuming it's mixed company), and now all of a sudden you'll have the oddball standing out like a sore thumb.

I don't think it has anything to do with being proud of your trade more than it does being part of a team.  I'm about as hardcore proud of being in the Army as one can be, but if I for whatever reason were on a sub I would be more than happy to wear the sub's dress of the day.

There is plenty of time to show your affiliation on formal days like parades and mess dinners...why break up the team like this?


----------



## Poppa

dapaterson said:
			
		

> (And nothing looks as bad as CADPAT bursting at the seams)



Ummm, I'd have to say 3B's look worse


----------



## FDO

There should be absolutly NO reason to have anything busting at the seams! You can exchange Operationaol kit at clothing stores (6 month wait for some) and DEUs can be had from Logisik. If it doesn't fit suck it up and either get a larger size or push away from the trough sooner! No having the proper fit is not a valid excuse.

Wearing CADPAT when required is not a problem. If I was posted to a unit and in the field then it's a no brainer. My NCDs are NOT the proper kit for the field. Same as making Army and Air Force wear NCDs on a ship. It's a safety thing. CADPAT will leave a nasty mark when it melts to your skin. NCDs are designed for wear in emergency situations like fire!! However, If I'm sitting in an office then NCDs or DEU could be worn.

There is one unit I know of and probably several others that have issued a "wait" on NCDs until it can be checked out or whatever. Funny how a MWO or Maj can just disregard an order from VCDS because they don't like it!


----------



## kratz

FDO said:
			
		

> There is one unit I know of and probably several others that have issued a "wait" on NCDs until it can be checked out or whatever. Funny how a MWO or Maj can just disregard an order from VCDS because they don't like it!



I have heard of this "wait" in two units this week, both at different bases.


----------



## McG

kratz said:
			
		

> I have heard of this "wait" in two units this week, both at different bases.


It is not only units directing pers not to action the CANFORGEN.  I am aware of at least one formation to have passed this direction to subordinate formations & units.


----------



## gcclarke

And the bun-fight begins.

...

I'm fairly certain that I know who will win this one.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

So, this directive is being taken to help to expose the navy to Canadian citizens, to increase (hopefullY) the number of people who are recruited into the Navy?

You are fuckin joking right?  They think this will make people want to join the navy?

Man...there really are some dumb people in decision making roles aren't there?

 :

This is the BEST they could come up with?  The word "weak" just doesn't seem to cover it.

I think the Navy just has to come to terms that people aren't attracted to life at sea the same way as life in the army or life in hotels (Go Air Force!)  > and I am going to have to point out the obvious here...seeing some (usually) out of shape guy in (frequently) wrinkled NCDs and poorly polished boots with a ball hat on is NOT going to "turn that around".

Someone should be embarassed about this "recruiting plan" IMO.

Maybe the Navy wouldn't have to recruit so much if their people were happier?  Just a thought....


----------



## gwp

MCG said:
			
		

> It is not only units directing pers not to action the CANFORGEN.  I am aware of at least one formation to have passed this direction to subordinate formations & units.


This will be interesting to watch. 

Eventually people will begin to realize how serious the Navy is about this.   

Other scuttlebutt is that after following up compliance disciplanary action will be offered for disobeying the directive?  

Would seem that supervisors who advise to disregard the directive are potentially standing themselves and their subordinates into danger. 

The service Chiefs are likely on side this VCDS directive.


----------



## PuckChaser

gwp said:
			
		

> Would seem that supervisors who advise to disregard the directive are potentially standing themselves and their subordinates into danger.



By danger I'll assume you mean administrative or disciplinary danger. I hardly doubt subordinates are going to take any heat for this if the chain of command above them tells them to "wait out".

Being that I'm in a very purple unit, its going to start looking awfully silly around the lines. Especially when troops are having to bring in CADPAT everyday just incase they have to do some field training or crawl under a Bison. If you're posted to a unit that gets LDA, you should be wearing CADPAT. Although it would just serve to screw over the young OS, AB, and LS, if you're wearing NCD you're not in the field and should be drawing Casual LDA, IHMO.


----------



## gwp

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Being that I'm in a very purple unit, its going to start looking awfully silly around the lines. Especially when troops are having to bring in CADPAT everyday just incase they have to do some field training or crawl under a Bison. If you're posted to a unit that gets LDA, you should be wearing CADPAT.



Does the last line of the directive cover the circumstance described? 

"EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CANFORGEN ARE PERMITTED FOR VALID OPERATIONAL REASONS ONLY, INCL EMPL IN ACTUAL FIELD OPS, FIELD TRG ACTIVITIES OR OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS "


----------



## combatbuddha

MedTech said:
			
		

> .
> 
> I will reiterate that purples do not belong to the element, they belong to their BRANCH! I HIGHLY doubt that they'll EVER split up the BRANCHES into their individual elements again. It's pointless and we gain nothing from it, other then more ignorance from people in the same MOC who've never done anything their peers have.



The EME Branch has been a hard and fast member of the Army for a few years now. Our school even falls under the CTC CoC, and not CFSTG like the other schools in Borden. We are not purple, but still support the Army kit and equipment used by all elements and branches.


----------



## meni0n

gwp said:
			
		

> Does the last line of the directive cover the circumstance described?
> 
> "EXCEPTIONS TO THIS CANFORGEN ARE PERMITTED FOR VALID OPERATIONAL REASONS ONLY, INCL EMPL IN ACTUAL FIELD OPS, FIELD TRG ACTIVITIES OR OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS "



No it doesn't, as being in garrison doesn't fit in any of those situations.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I see nothing wrong with them wanting to wear NCDs. What? Wrong uniform for the range\ vehicle\ outside\ \training\ etc? 

Here's your coveralls.


----------



## Sub_Guy

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If you're posted to a unit that gets LDA, you should be wearing CADPAT. Although it would just serve to screw over the young OS, AB, and LS, if you're wearing NCD you're not in the field and should be drawing Casual LDA, IHMO.



Interesting, so they could be sitting around not working in the field, but as long as they are wearing CADPAT they should collect LDA?  

When the Naval types are told they are going in the field they will be wearing CADPAT, but to deny them LDA because they are wearing NCD's is just plain stupid. 

How about this, if you are not in the field, you shouldn't collect LDA, regardless what you are wearing. 

I really don't see what the big deal is, seems to me that there are a few army types who can't handle being told what to do from someone in a Navy uniform.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

> and I am going to have to point out the obvious here...seeing some (usually) out of shape guy in (frequently) wrinkled NCDs and poorly polished boots with a ball hat on is NOT going to "turn that around".


I have been around Halifax since 94 and there are some CADPAT wearing types wearing various coloured berets with various regimental cap badges that look pretty fat themselves. Its not just a naval problem. Just because you wear cadpat does not make you the poster boy for fitness.


----------



## Loachman

meni0n said:
			
		

> No it doesn't, as being in garrison doesn't fit in any of those situations.



"OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS", depending upon how tightly/loosely it's interpreted, and who can "approve", could cover a lot.


----------



## PuckChaser

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> I really don't see what the big deal is, seems to me that there are a few army types who can't handle being told what to do from someone in a Navy uniform.



If there was an actual decent reason for this NCD change, I would agree with it. However, it just seems like a far-fetched idea to try to fix recruiting. Instead of just making a blanket uniform change, why don't the pers making the big bucks sit down and actually figure out why they can't attract recruits?


----------



## Pil

I think I've solved the majority of problems people have on this thread:

P = Naval Ranks will have to be addressed by their rank, no more excuses if you get the rank wrong.
S = Try really hard to remember the naval rank. If you are in the navy and someone get's your rank wrong either ignore it, because no one actually makes a big deal of it. Or, if you feel you must, politely correct them. Don't take it personally.

P = But those sailors wear the same colour beret as me! It's an outrage.
S = The decison was made long ago and isn't going to reverse itself. It's probably worth moving on now. We all know you tankers just wanted to raise your LCF by copying Che Guevera and looking like the Croatian Military Police.

P = There is no reason for people to collect Field Pay just because they are serving in a field unit. They don't do field work!
S = Neither do the Ops, Canteen Queens, Kit shop guys, Perma duty Sgts, QMSI and a billion other people in my unit, but they still get the pay. At the end of the day one, someone who probably works just as hard as you do (I know, hard to beleive, but there are others who work just as hard as you) get's a little extra cash to buy the baby some diapers, familiy some food OR give a portion of their field pay to families of the fallen or troops in need. 

P = The sailors are a bunch of fat asses. 
S = True. So's the rest of the military. 

P = This isn't going to help recruiting at all.
S = Nope. But some high up sailors were feeling bad about their job because "No one recognized them for their hard work. "(because like you, they think they're the hardest working people). Then they complained enough and someone disguised it as a recruiting initative. Lesson learned = complaining works.


Sorry, back on topic. Just wanted to get in on the dick stepping over an innocuous issue.


----------



## NCRCrow

Outstanding post..PIL here is all my posting points!!!

The wearing of NCD's may have something to do with the senior services 100 year centennial celebration. Last time we had to wear our DEU's as our dress of the day. Hope this does not happen!

and don't lump us Navy guys as fat asses! I did OP ATHENA Roto O and boy oh boy some of you Army folk should have said no to dessert!

nice post PIL!


----------



## Pil

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> and don't lump us Navy guys as fat asses! I did OP ATHENA Roto O and boy oh boy some of you Army folk should have said no to dessert!



Hey dude, I wasn't ragging on ya! I've managed to gather a large belly while keeping my legs and arms skinny. I'm the worst kind of fat, skinny fat. But my wife still manages to lie and say she'd rather have my soft mid section to Jason Stathams hard abs any day.


----------



## PMedMoe

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> How about this, if you are not in the field, you shouldn't collect LDA, regardless what you are wearing.


By that reasoning, sea pay shouldn't be collected unless one is actually at sea, not just posted to a ship.


----------



## meni0n

Loachman said:
			
		

> "OTHER APPROVED TRG SITUATIONS", depending upon how tightly/loosely it's interpreted, and who can "approve", could cover a lot.



Sitting around the lines is not a training situation and I don`t see how it can be justified as one.


----------



## Loachman

meni0n said:
			
		

> Sitting around the lines is not a training situation



Which is probably why it says "TRG SITUATIONS" rather than "sitting around the lines".


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Pil said:
			
		

> P = But those sailors wear the same colour beret as me! It's an outrage.
> S = The decison was made long ago and isn't going to reverse itself. It's probably worth moving on now. We all know you tankers just wanted to raise your LCF by copying Che Guevera and looking like the Croatian Military Police.



You should really know what you're talking about before you start running your gate.


----------



## Pil

recceguy said:
			
		

> You should really know what you're talking about before you start running your gate.


 : Just one mans light hearted opinion. No need to sulk.

Have a good night.


----------



## sm1lodon

Petamocto said:
			
		

> I think at the end of the day it's just going to exclude people and make them not feel like part of the team.
> 
> Here you've had people acting like and dressing like everyone else they work with (assuming it's mixed company), and now all of a sudden you'll have the oddball standing out like a sore thumb.
> 
> I don't think it has anything to do with being proud of your trade more than it does being part of a team.  I'm about as hardcore proud of being in the Army as one can be, but if I for whatever reason were on a sub I would be more than happy to wear the sub's dress of the day.
> 
> There is plenty of time to show your affiliation on formal days like parades and mess dinners...why break up the team like this?



I disagree. It doesn't break up a team to allow people from whatever branch of the service in which they enlisted to proudly wear the uniform that readily visibly identifies them as such. If you are in a team environment, everyone is going to know what branch everyone is from anyway, if they work together on a day-to-day basis, so sailors actually looking like sailors and army guys looking like army guys isn't going to hurt ANYTHING, least of all, morale. Being proud to be army doesn't automatically mean you think everyone you work with who is not wearing a full Afghanistan combat loadout is somehow genetically, somatically, and congenitally inferior.

I always thought it looked kind of ridiculous to see a sailor in a non-land-combat situation walking around in army combat dress. What for?

I have to agree that adding visibility to the navy personnel isn't going to do anything to impede recruiting, either, in my opinion. Like I heard someone say once "Canadian navy? What navy?" Our navy will profit, I think, from increased visibility.


----------



## tree hugger

I know there are plenty of sailor types here at Pet, however I have yet to see a set of NCD's walking about.


----------



## CallOfDuty

sm1lodon said:
			
		

> I have to agree that adding visibility to the navy personnel isn't going to do anything to impede recruiting, either, in my opinion. Like I heard someone say once "Canadian navy? What navy?" Our navy will profit, I think, from increased visibility.


     Funny thing about the navy's visibility.  When I had my naval uniform on and riding the bus back and forth to work, I would have people ask me what kind of outfit I had on.  When I would tell them Navy...they would ask if I meant coast guard?  Or is the navy part of those grey boats that are in the harbour?
  This is in HALIFAX!!!!!!!!


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Don't get me started on that "Isn't the Navy part of our Coast Guard?" thing.
Different topic - Was visiting in Barrie (Yes, in that 'have not' province) over the weekend and a freind posted to Borden came home after his work day in his CADPAT (Yes, he is a hard sea trade) - apparently Base Commander's orders?????
I guess CAFORGENs (read as "orders from CDS") don't apply at Borden????


----------



## Neill McKay

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> Different topic - Was visiting in Barrie (Yes, in that 'have not' province) over the weekend and a freind posted to Borden came home after his work day in his CADPAT (Yes, he is a hard sea trade) - apparently Base Commander's orders?????
> I guess CAFORGENs (read as "orders from CDS") don't apply at Borden????



Not at CFB Gagetown, where naval personnel in the NB/PEI Cadet Detachment were still wearing combats yesterday.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Same here for navy folks working for LF units at CFS ST.JOHN'S (which happens to fall under MARLANT)


----------



## catalyst

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> Funny thing about the navy's visibility.  When I had my naval uniform on and riding the bus back and forth to work, I would have people ask me what kind of outfit I had on.  When I would tell them Navy...they would ask if I meant coast guard?  Or is the navy part of those grey boats that are in the harbour?
> This is in HALIFAX!!!!!!!!



Its OK in Victoria, in cadpat, they ask me what part of the navy I'm in


----------



## tree hugger

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I guess CAFORGENs (read as "orders from CDS") don't apply at Borden????


Doesn't seem as they apply anywhere... 
Seriously, do you think the CDS is going to catch on that no one is following this direction?


----------



## medaid

My question is who cares? 

I don't understand why so many people are getting bent out of shape about CADPAT vs NCD. What ever is practical when performing tasks should be good to go! 

I STILL see divers from FDU (P) wear their CADPAT around, woe be to them! GET OVER IT.


----------



## George Wallace

:

Did the CDS actually sign this CANFORGEN or perhaps some General lower in the foodchain?







.........Such as the VCDS whose listed in the title of the Msg.


----------



## gcclarke

MedTech said:
			
		

> My question is who cares?
> 
> I don't understand why so many people are getting bent out of shape about CADPAT vs NCD. What ever is practical when performing tasks should be good to go!
> 
> I STILL see divers from FDU (P) wear their CADPAT around, woe be to them! GET OVER IT.



Well, frankly, if I, as a sailor, am posted somewhere where I *should* (Read: SHALL IAW CANFORGEN 198/09) be wearing my NCDs, and am instead forced to wear those relish getups called CADPAT, simply because some Army officer up in my chain of command decided that he didn't like sailors being able to look like sailors, I would be somewhat miffed. Especially when that decision is made contrary to orders from higher command. 

And there is honestly no other valid reason. Yes, "whatever is practical when performing tasks should be good to go!" That means NCDs for anything other than field operations, field exercised, and other approved training situations. IAW REF A.

I know the reason that was given for this particular order was for recruitment efforts, and I do think that is indeed a valid argument. But I think it will (or would if people didn't decide to completely ignore it) have an ever greater impact upon retention. Forcing sailors to dress in army gear, for no bloody reason, is bad for morale. I think the whole post-Unification debacle proved that point. The only time they should ever be forced to wear NCDs is when they have a valid operational reason for doing so. 



			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> :
> Did the CDS actually sign this CANFORGEN or perhaps some General lower in the foodchain?
> 
> .........Such as the VCDS whose listed in the title of the Msg.



Does it matter? Until cancelled, CANFORGENs apply to the entire CF, not merely the subset of the CF that falls under the OPI. If this had been issued as, for example, a MARGEN, then yes, army units could feel free to ignore it. This isn't the case.


----------



## Journeyman

MedTech said:
			
		

> My question is who cares?


While I can't speak _for_ the Navy, or Air Force, I can understand their pride in being readily identified as sailors or....or, zoomie-persons. 

I know I take pride in being a soldier, and if I could work up the interest I would likely feel pity that you don't know that pride. 

For the rest of the sailors, give 'em their NCD.


----------



## MARS

It is all about identity MedTech.  

Let’s look at the issue from another perspective.  I have only had occasion to get to know two members of the Airborne, but I know they were darn proud of their maroon beret.  I presume SAR techs are equally as proud.  Earlier in this thread, it was noted that Dragoons are apparently quite proud of their black beret.  Now, imagine for a second that in some bizarro, alternate universe, they were required to wear a different beret.  No big deal, right?  After all, the colour of your beret has no impact on someone’s operational effectiveness.  But I would assume there would be all sorts of upset folks.  And I would certainly understand why – their identity has been stripped from them.  I would also hazard that telling one of them to “get over it” would not be very well received.  

Certainly NCDs lack that same prestige if you will, but when you reduce the argument to first principles, it is all about identity, one which most of us in the Navy are justifiably proud of.  And, working in an office is equally practical in either CADPAT or NCDs, so why not NCDs?  

(Journeyman said it better and more succinctly than I)


----------



## medaid

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Well, frankly, if I, as a sailor, am posted somewhere where I *should* (Read: SHALL IAW CANFORGEN 198/09) be wearing my NCDs, and am instead forced to wear those relish getups called CADPAT, simply because some Army officer up in my chain of command decided that he didn't like sailors being able to look like sailors, I would be somewhat miffed. Especially when that decision is made contrary to orders from higher command.
> 
> And there is honestly no other valid reason. Yes, "whatever is practical when performing tasks should be good to go!" That means NCDs for anything other than field operations, field exercised, and other approved training situations. IAW REF A.
> 
> I know the reason that was given for this particular order was for recruitment efforts, and I do think that is indeed a valid argument. But I think it will (or would if people didn't decide to completely ignore it) have an ever greater impact upon retention. Forcing sailors to dress in army gear, for no bloody reason, is bad for morale. I think the whole post-Unification debacle proved that point. The only time they should ever be forced to wear NCDs is when they have a valid operational reason for doing so.
> 
> Does it matter? Until cancelled, CANFORGENs apply to the entire CF, not merely the subset of the CF that falls under the OPI. If this had been issued as, for example, a MARGEN, then yes, army units could feel free to ignore it. This isn't the case.



Great post! Tell it all to the Divers, because they don't care, and you can't tell me that they're commanded by an Army officer who feels that they shouldn't look Navy. They're NAVY, plain and simple, and they are NOT wearing NCDs as often as they should be. On all of the Ex I've seen Divers have been in CADPAT, walking around and forming up on parade in CADPAT. I don't see many trees around the jetty, and around the massive gray coloured sheds, do you?



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> I know I take pride in being a soldier, and if I could work up the interest I would likely feel pity that you don't know that pride.



Oh yes, great one JM, I don't know that pride. My pride is in my DEU, that's why it's there. To distinguish myself from an Airman or a Solider. Until you've worn my element's uniform, kindly keep your comments about pride to yourself and about yourself. 



			
				MARS said:
			
		

> It is all about identity MedTech.
> 
> Let’s look at the issue from another perspective.  I have only had occasion to get to know two members of the Airborne, but I know they were darn proud of their maroon beret.  I presume SAR techs are equally as proud.  Earlier in this thread, it was noted that Dragoons are apparently quite proud of their black beret.  Now, imagine for a second that in some bizarro, alternate universe, they were required to wear a different beret.  No big deal, right?  After all, the colour of your beret has no impact on someone’s operational effectiveness.  But I would assume there would be all sorts of upset folks.  And I would certainly understand why – their identity has been stripped from them.  I would also hazard that telling one of them to “get over it” would not be very well received.
> 
> Certainly NCDs lack that same prestige if you will, but when you reduce the argument to first principles, it is all about identity, one which most of us in the Navy are justifiably proud of.  And, working in an office is equally practical in either CADPAT or NCDs, so why not NCDs?
> 
> (Journeyman said it better and more succinctly than I)



Again, I feel pride in my uniform. But I could care less if my sailors are dressed in CADPAT or NCDs, because at the end of the day they still do the same jobs regardless of what they're wearing! That is what I'm saying here. 

You want to increase visibility? Then start going to more recruiting events with COMPETENT Naval pers that can answer questions about the Naval MOCs. I will almost say that joe blow on the street can give less of a crap what our sailors are dressed in. Either NCDs or DEUs make us look like bus drivers and security guards. At least a CADPAT uniform will identify you as a member of the armed forces.


----------



## Monsoon

MedTech said:
			
		

> Oh yes, great one JM, I don't know that pride. My pride is in my DEU, that's why it's there. To distinguish myself from an Airman or a Solider. Until you've worn my element's uniform, kindly keep your comments about pride to yourself and about yourself.


And until you've worn this DEU for more than a handful of dogwatches, you might consider doing the same. For my part, Journeyman's independent assesment is spot on. 



> But I could care less if my sailors are dressed in CADPAT or NCDs, because at the end of the day they still do the same jobs regardless of what they're wearing! That is what I'm saying here.


Your somewhat overheated response to this topic suggests that you do indeed care quite a bit - and that you specifically resent having to wear NCDs. Fortunately, the way forward is clear: VCDS has made a decision and you - and all the mid-level managers holding up this CANFORGEN's implmentation - are the ones that need to get over it and move on.



> At least a CADPAT uniform will identify you as a member of the armed forces.


Sure. Just the wrong armed force; that's the point. CADPAT is a perfectly lovely thing in its context and I certainly didn't resent wearing it when I deployed. There's a difference, though, between not wanting to wear something because you disrespect it (which isn't the case here) and not wanting to wear something because there's something more appropriate for you to wear.


----------



## medaid

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> And until you've worn this DEU for more than a handful of dogwatches, you might consider doing the same. For my part, Journeyman's independent assesment is spot on.



Good for you and JM then. 



			
				hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Your somewhat overheated response to this topic suggests that you do indeed care quite a bit - and that you specifically resent having to wear NCDs.



Really? Overheated? Have you READ the pages of drivel with people going back and forth?  Where have I indicated that I resent wearing NCDs? 



			
				hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Fortunately, the way forward is clear: VCDS has made a decision and you - and all the mid-level managers holding up this CANFORGEN's implmentation - are the ones that need to get over it and move on.



As I've said I don't care what they wear. The VCDS wants everyone in salt and peppers be my guest, and I'll continue to follow those directions and orders. However, my comments were meant to point out how silly this all is. 



			
				hamiltongs said:
			
		

> Sure. Just the wrong armed force; that's the point. CADPAT is a perfectly lovely thing in its context and I certainly didn't resent wearing it when I deployed. There's a difference, though, between not wanting to wear something because you disrespect it (which isn't the case here) and not wanting to wear something because there's something more appropriate for you to wear.



Again, our NCDs and DEUs have brought on more comments about it looking like a security guard, Brinks guard, and so forth then people asking me if I was in the Navy. I can honestly say within the past 2 and something years of interacting with the public in my naval environment uniforms, I have NEVER been identified as a Navy pers. It's always Army guy/ airline pilot/ security guard etc. 

I agree with your statements on appropriateness. However who determines that appropriateness to a greater impact on the pers that wear them? The commander on the ground or the commander no where to be seen miles away? 

Anyways, I'm done with this. This topic is as silly as those about TacVests and boots. Things aren't going to change that quickly, and when they do, it'll be time to change back again.


----------



## Neill McKay

MedTech said:
			
		

> Again, our NCDs and DEUs have brought on more comments about it looking like a security guard, Brinks guard, and so forth then people asking me if I was in the Navy. I can honestly say within the past 2 and something years of interacting with the public in my naval environment uniforms, I have NEVER been identified as a Navy pers. It's always Army guy/ airline pilot/ security guard etc.



More widespread wearing of naval uniforms might be a step in solving this problem, though.

I've been mistaken for a pilot and a Commissionaire (once each, that I know of) but each time has been an opportunity to educate someone on what a naval uniform is.  (I've also been correctly identified as a naval officer several times, so all hope is not lost!)

Once upon a time, everybody knew what a sailor looked like, including ours.  Everybody still knows what a sailor looks like -- except ours.  It will take some effort on our part to educate them.


----------



## Lumber

MCG said:
			
		

> It is not only units directing pers not to action the CANFORGEN.  I am aware of at least one formation to have passed this direction to subordinate formations & units.



Dittio. We wear CADPAT once a week here (no.5s every other day ), and during exam time (read: now) we wear CADPAT as our DOD. 

We've been told, however, that those of us in the Navy will continue to wear CADPAT and not NCDs. 

Funny thing though, the UTPNCMs were told that they can wear NCDs...


----------



## armyvern

I'm wondering if the Navy's own scale of entitlement has anything to do with some sailors not yet being seen in NCDs.

IAW their own SOE, we can't issue NCDs to anyone not posted into a Naval-owned Posn, thus - there's a whole lot of purple sailors in Army Units (or Air Units) who've never been issued NCDs, nor do they have any current entitlement to be issued NCDs. Perhaps, the top acted without consulting the bottom to ensure the Admin was in place down here where shit actually happens to make (or ensure) this CANFORGEN implementation actually doable. It wouldn't be the first time ...

Also, am aware of two "Navy" purple people who've since submitted requests for change of enviornment to Land since this msg was cut. Seems they are among many purple people who didn't get their choice of enviornmental uniforms (because, let's face it - one joins the CF, not the Navy or the army or the AF) but figured what the hell because they were a "purple" trade anyway and serving in the Army where they wanted to be ... but now, want to be in the uniform of the enviornment they prefer because it will now be making a difference to them. 

Anyway, until the Navy amends it's scale of entitlement (which are issued, authorized and in effect on authority of the CDS) - I can not issue NCDs to any pers of the Naval enviornment who is not posted into an establish "Naval position".

_That_ little tidbit may have a whole lot to do with what's occuring (or not occuring in this case) too.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Hmmm.  Well, our Navy-DEU people were wearing NCDs just a bit ago at the Sqn brief.   ???


----------



## armyvern

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Well, our Navy-DEU people were wearing NCDs just a bit ago at the Sqn brief.   ???



Sure.

I once had a sailor working for me at the last Army base I was at who had been posted in from a ship to us; he has NCDs already that he could wear - having had an entitlement and having had been issued them as part of his prior job ...

Not so the sailors that I had working for me who were in their first posting (Army) of their career, or who had not had previous opportunity to be posted into a "naval" position where they would have had entitlement. And, as the Naval Scale of entitlement currently reads (according to the Sup Tech who checked for me), they still don't have an entitlement to be issued them. If the scale (the OPI is Naval - the scale is owned by the Navy) still isn't ammended, there isn't much a suppie can do to issue NCDs to pers not posted in Naval Establishment posns.


----------



## Journeyman

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If the scale ....isn't ammended, there isn't much a suppie can do...


And you _know_ how that will play out at the counter.....damn bin rats, refusing to issue stuff.  :nod:


----------



## FDO

The one thing I saw with ArmyVern's post was that Purple people did not get their chioce of element. I'm not sure what went on severasl years ago but since I've been in recruiting everyone gets a choice of element. If there are no positions in the elemnt they chose then they will be asked if another element is ok. If they say yes then that's where they go. If they say no they only want a certain element then they will wait for an opening. 

 My personal view is, if I am working in an office then DEUs should be the dress of the day. Why do I need to wear operational clothing sitting in an office? I am not working out in the field or on a ship where I need it. Chances of me having to hide behind a plant in the office is slim (except when I screw something up) or having to fight a fire or plug battle damage. Plus now with being able to order new DEUs it's never a problem to keep my kit in good repair.

The Army and Air Force in my office are miffed right now because we do have to wear DEUs. This means no more wash and wear. They have to actually put an iron to their clothes and polish on their boots. 

 My advice to anyone who has a problem with having to spend a few extra minutes making themselves look professional is find a Combat Engineer, build a bridge and get over it.


----------



## Edward Campbell

FDO said:
			
		

> ...
> My personal view is, if I am working in an office then DEUs should be the dress of the day. Why do I need to wear operational clothing sitting in an office? I am not working out in the field or on a ship where I need it. Chances of me having to hide behind a plant in the office is slim (except when I screw something up) or having to fight a fire or plug battle damage. Plus now with being able to order new DEUs it's never a problem to keep my kit in good repair.
> 
> The Army and Air Force in my office are miffed right now because we do have to wear DEUs. This means no more wash and wear. They have to actually put an iron to their clothes and polish on their boots.
> ...




BZ!

+300 Mil Points


----------



## gcclarke

The way I see it, there's two main issues. Firstly, at the HQs of the various Dot Coms. Yes, they probably should be wearing DEU, but when the LGen or VAdm decides that your dress of the day should reflect an "operational focus", I don't have a problem with that. But sailors working in those commands should at least be able to reflect a naval tinged operational focus. 

And then there are other places that are both non-office environments, but are also not in "the field". Places like warehouses and workshops where the wear of DEUs are, frankly, rather inappropriate. Again, in accordance with the CANFORGEN, those sailors working in those environments (who are entitled to or already have NCDs issued to them) should be wearing them. 

As for wear in the office, that's a bit of a no-brainer in my opinion. In the office, most sailors should probably be wearing DEU, but if they're not, they sure as heck shouldn't be wearing CADPAT en lieu.


----------



## armyvern

FDO said:
			
		

> The one thing I saw with ArmyVern's post was that Purple people did not get their chioce of element. I'm not sure what went on severasl years ago but since I've been in recruiting everyone gets a choice of element. If there are no positions in the elemnt they chose then they will be asked if another element is ok. If they say yes then that's where they go. If they say no they only want a certain element then they will wait for an opening.



I'll clarify for you:

One of the two was posted to Halifax when DEU CiF, the first & only non-Army posting of his career; he didn't get a choice - he was "assigned" the naval uniform because he was posted to the navy when the DEU CiF.

The other of the two was asked which enviornment he preferred - he stated land. AF was well over-strength at that time, and land was at-strength. He was therefore offered Navy and took it because he was "purple" and could go work with the Army anyway given that he is "purple". With this CANFORGEN - he wants to be identify with the Army because that's what he wanted in the first place and that's where he's always served.

Myself, I was aked too for a preference (I chose Land); but, I was given blue. I never knew I was slotted "AF" (I was CF)until I was issued thos DEU during my QL3s. I started writing memos to change my DEU as soon as I saw & became addicted to the red ink that my Master Seaman (my first posting was with the navy) was writing all over everyone else's memos. It took me 6 hard years of trying, and I finally had to tell them that I'd pay out of my own pocket to purchase Army DEU, before that message from NDHQ came through authorizing me to switch to land. It was a happy day for me.

Your comment about those not wanting to iron uniforms everyday is ohhhh so true. Should have heard the bitching from the AF and naval folks who had to iron and do boots every night during QLs and leadership courses while we Army folk could spend time out drinking etc ... likewise, I've had many a sailor and an airman/woman (back in the day when both of those still wore workdress) who absolutely welcomed the respite they got from wearing their enviornmental uniforms and thus didn't have to do ironing every day/night; they were quite happy to be able to throw on combats each day.

I rue the day I am posted to HQ and get to wile away the hours doing footwear and DEU every day ... I think that's what parades are for.

Edited to add: And, now that I'm an MWO --- crusty old me will ensure that all my personnel in future will have ample "parading" opportunity just to ensure that ironing & boot-polishing skills are kept up-to-date.  > _Just kidding folks, just kidding._


----------



## CallOfDuty

Seeing the new  NCD's that the navy types have been wearing lately seem to be pretty good to me.  They have the cargo style pants, and the Canadian flag on the shoulder is a nice touch.  Quite military, as compared to the older ones.  
  Just my opinion.
Cheers


----------



## Eye In The Sky

The "mall cop" pants?   ;D


----------



## NavyShooter

Actually, the pants were described to me as being the same ones used by the Military Police.

NS


----------



## Edward Campbell

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Actually, the pants were described to me as being the same ones used by the Military Police.
> 
> NS




Which makes them "mall cop" pants, right?


----------



## BlueJingo

From what I read, Even more so now that he's confirmed it! LOL


----------



## CallOfDuty

yup...I think the mallcop pants are better than the old ones .  It's Peanut-Blart and jelly time!...peanut-Blart and jelly time!!!.......
  Thats from Paul Blart. Mall cop. lol.


----------



## gwp

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if the Navy's own scale of entitlement has anything to do with some sailors not yet being seen in NCDs.
> 
> IAW their own SOE, we can't issue NCDs to anyone not posted into a Naval-owned Posn, thus - there's a whole lot of purple sailors in Army Units (or Air Units) who've never been issued NCDs, nor do they have any current entitlement to be issued NCDs.
> ......
> Anyway, until the Navy amends it's scale of entitlement (which are issued, authorized and in effect on authority of the CDS) - I can not issue NCDs to any pers of the Naval enviornment who is not posted into an establish "Naval position".



That is being questioned and checked by the Formation Chiefs.


----------



## armyvern

gwp said:
			
		

> That is being questioned and checked by the Formation Chiefs.



I had my tunic down to clothing the other day, so I asked what it read. I haven't seen the scale myself for 2 years, but recalled that it used to read the entitlement for those posted into naval posns.

If it's not changed yet, an update done 1st thing tomorrow should show up on the scale as they are usually updated versions on Fridays. Once it's updated, a message from the scale OPI to all Clothing Support groups would make them immediately aware of the change in entitlement, and one to all SupOs reminding of the recent CANFORGEN may see both the change of policy and the "new entitlement" being distributed 'up' the CoC from the lower level.

When I was the CSG supr, I'd always bring up scale changes during the weekly O Gp, noting to whom the change was applicable and why; that way it (the info) got distributed back down via the CoC to those entitled and their CoC were aware of the authority and no one was walking about in the dark.

I did the same thing when "OD undies & T-shirts" became exchangeable years ago ... and we had a rush in clothing stores a couple of days later because the info was passed on like it should have been. Apparently, it was passed on to everyone except Technoviking because he freely admitted on this site a few days ago that he's been walking around in dirty undies since he was originally issued them circa 2000 having only just learned of their exchangeability.  >


----------



## Halifax Tar

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if the Navy's own scale of entitlement has anything to do with some sailors not yet being seen in NCDs.
> 
> IAW their own SOE, we can't issue NCDs to anyone not posted into a Naval-owned Posn, thus - there's a whole lot of purple sailors in Army Units (or Air Units) who've never been issued NCDs, nor do they have any current entitlement to be issued NCDs. Perhaps, the top acted without consulting the bottom to ensure the Admin was in place down here where crap actually happens to make (or ensure) this CANFORGEN implementation actually doable. It wouldn't be the first time ...
> 
> Also, am aware of two "Navy" purple people who've since submitted requests for change of enviornment to Land since this msg was cut. Seems they are among many purple people who didn't get their choice of enviornmental uniforms (because, let's face it - one joins the CF, not the Navy or the army or the AF) but figured what the hell because they were a "purple" trade anyway and serving in the Army where they wanted to be ... but now, want to be in the uniform of the enviornment they prefer because it will now be making a difference to them.
> 
> Anyway, until the Navy amends it's scale of entitlement (which are issued, authorized and in effect on authority of the CDS) - I can not issue NCDs to any pers of the Naval enviornment who is not posted into an establish "Naval position".
> 
> _That_ little tidbit may have a whole lot to do with what's occuring (or not occuring in this case) too.



Vern I think you may be incorrect here. For all Naval DEU personnel are issued an initial SOA for Naval dress at basic which is there's to keep and care for for their entire careers. I think you may be getting confused with an order many moons ago that stressed the shortages of NCDs and restricted their issue to only sea going positions. This was also back in the day when we in the navy had our work dress too, remember that postman blue shirt and black polyester pants with the sweater you could wear with it. 

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that any Naval DEU personnel are entitled to the initial issue of NCDs as it is our environmental work dress now.


----------



## armyvern

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Vern I think you may be incorrect here. For all Naval DEU personnel are issued an initial SOA for Naval dress at basic which is there's to keep and care for for their entire careers. I think you may be getting confused with an order many moons ago that stressed the shortages of NCDs and restricted their issue to only sea going positions. This was also back in the day when we in the navy had our work dress too, remember that postman blue shirt and black polyester pants with the sweater you could wear with it.
> 
> I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that any Naval DEU personnel are entitled to the initial issue of NCDs as it is our environmental work dress now.



Purple Naval pers have not always been afforded the opportunity to retain their NCDs upon completion of Basic Trg. This may have been the case for hard sea trades, but not purple trades of your enviornment. I'm still not sure it is the case for purple people who wear the navy uniform. Much like hard army trades kept army op kit when they departed St Jean - not so army purple types (and not even most hard-army types these days due to shortages).

CFSAL kitlist used to read for Navy pers reporting to QL trades courses that daily dress while attending course was "Naval Operational dress" for naval envir pers. We had to advise CFSAL that our pers coming on course would not be wearing NCDs as they had zero entitlement to them - having not been allowed to retain (because they were not hard sea trades) once they left St jean, nor did they have any current entitlement to them having served with the Army for the past 3 years (never in a Naval owned posn). This was with the new dress.

Naval pers from all over Gagetown would show up at clothing looking for NCDs when proceeding on career courses - and we'd have to turn them down each time due to their lack of entitlment. We had to advise CFSAL that their placing an item on a kitlist did not an entitlement to it create...

I had to tell some of the LF schools the same thing regarding some of the items they put onto their own kitlists ... 

I think I'll try to hunt down an avail computer demain matin and get to the scale sites to download to ascertain if/when there has been a change for myself.


----------



## Halifax Tar

> Purple Naval pers have not always been afforded the opportunity to retain their NCDs upon completion of Basic Trg. This may have been the case for hard sea trades, but not purple trades of your enviornment. I'm still not sure it is the case for purple people who wear the navy uniform. Much like hard army trades kept army op kit when they departed St Jean - not so army purple types (and not even most hard-army types these days due to shortages).



Operational kit (IE Rucksack, webbing etc etc) Is different than one's daily dress. Unless you are hearkening back to the days of Work Dress/Base Dress/OP dress then I think you may be mistaken. For the OS Sup Tech who leaves St Jean for Borden will retain the NCDs for that will be the DOTD while at CFSAL.



> CFSAL kitlist used to read for Navy pers reporting to QL trades courses that daily dress while attending course was "Naval Operational dress" for naval envir pers. We had to advise CFSAL that our pers coming on course would not be wearing NCDs as they had zero entitlement to them - having not been allowed to retain (because they were not hard sea trades) once they left St jean, nor did they have any current entitlement to them having served with the Army for the past 3 years (never in a Naval owned posn). This was with the new dress.



This in my opinion is just laziness on the members part. Such as all Air and Army personnel retain the CADPAT while employed on ship (But wearing NCDs as DOTD). Naval personnel should have retained and up kept the NCDs for situations like career courses. As well I think hiding behind the "non naval position" is thin at best. You and I both know as Sup Techs the NCDs could have been provided had the correct time been allotted. Lastly on my 5s we had 2 Navy pers. Myself from Halifax and 1 other LS from Edmonton. This LS having spent his time thus far in hard army central managed to show up in NCDs. 

I know while in Kingston I was able to provide a PO1 Coms Research type with NCDs because he was entitled to them as Navy pers in an instructional environment. That was in 1999. 

One last thing about Scales and our "rules" governing supply, don't let them get in the way of providing the best support possible. Your cap badge reads "Service Second to None", try to uphold that for all elements eh. I sometimes get the feeling you resent your Naval counterparts.


----------



## armyvern

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Operational kit (IE Rucksack, webbing etc etc) Is different than one's daily dress. Unless you are hearkening back to the days of Work Dress/Base Dress/OP dress then I think you may be mistaken. For the OS Sup Tech who leaves St Jean for Borden will retain the NCDs for that will be the DOTD while at CFSAL.



I say again - one last time - I say again: I *am* speaking of the NCDs. Last year, purple pers leaving Saint Jean were still *not* entitled to leave basic with their NCDs as a retention item because, as purple people, there was no guarantee they'd be posted into a "naval establishment posn" upon grad from QL3. Two OS's were posted into me, they had NO NCDs - nor did they have an entitlement to them.



> This in my opinion is just laziness on the members part. Such as all Air and Army personnel retain the CADPAT while employed on ship (But wearing NCDs as DOTD). Naval personnel should have retained and up kept the NCDs for situations like career courses. As well I think hiding behind the "non naval position" is thin at best. You and I both know as Sup Techs the NCDs could have been provided had the correct time been allotted. Lastly on my 5s we had 2 Navy pers. Myself from Halifax and 1 other LS from Edmonton. This LS having spent his time thus far in hard army central managed to show up in NCDs.



I'm not hiding behind anything; the navy's scales are the Navy's scales, not mine. Naval pers will retain their NCDs once they have become entitled to their initial issue of them; as the scale read, that entitlement "commences upon first posting into a naval establishment posn". Now, why is it that the Navy implemented a change to their dress regs that (apparently) did not match their own scale of entitlement, but that is somehow mine (or my trades) fault? Very interesting concept you have of what my job is vice what the navy's job is in this circumstance. The irony in your statement is that YOU are the naval Sup tech working within the Naval CoC at this point in time, but that you addressed SFA - just bitched at me - while another Naval non-Sup pers here on the site actually took the time to address the navy's conflict (as did I) through their CoC.



> I know while in Kingston I was able to provide a PO1 Coms Research type with NCDs because he was entitled to them as Navy pers in an instructional environment. That was in 1999.



That's nice, but that's not what we're talking about here; we're talking about purple people who by the Navy's own scale of entitlement were not entitled to an initial issue of NCDs as they were/had never been posted into or working for on a temp task a Naval establishment posn. Besides the fact that we are also discussing the current navy scale - which I guarantee you has changed at least 20 times since 1999 and your given example - and the current NCDs, not the old shrinking crap that we used to have in the dockyard circa 91/92 ... or 99. As a suppie you and I both know full well that how a scale read circa 99 means absolutely SFA as to how that scale reads today - or at least you should ... given your apparent TI.



> One last thing about Scales and our "rules" governing supply, don't let them get in the way of providing the best support possible. Your cap badge reads "Service Second to None", try to uphold that for all elements eh. I sometimes get the feeling you resent your Naval counterparts.



One last thing about "my job"; right now, my job is to attend classes and be a student. As for "service second to none", one day, while being a student, I had to visit the tailor shop. While there, I asked the suppie to check the scale to see if it still read the same - according to that suppie it did. I told the suppie about the new CMS message and asked them to bring it (and the conflict with the scale) to the attention of their supr. I did my job, even though I didn't have to (& what, exactly, have you - the navy Sup tech in a naval CoC done to address it [ie: have YOU done YOUR job?]). And, because of comments such as yours slamming all the other environments about "not letting" sailors wear NCDs despite the new message --- I pointed out the conflict here too. One Naval pers actually took it upon themselves to take that info and address that conflict through the Naval CoC (who are the ones, after all, who can ammend that scale; me nor any other suppies can), unlike yourself who just chose to slam someone else and another trade for a possible oversight on the navy's part. 

Pointing that out means I am biased and not doing my job? _Ri-iiight. _ As for slamming me with the "resent your naval counterparts" comment ... you'll get over yourself one day I'm sure (hopefully soon).  : Here's a link below to a pic of me & my sailor dad ... and my brother is sailing on the Freddy these days. Have a happy new year, hope your sky turns from purple haze back to blue soon.  :

http://milnet.ca/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=16928


----------



## Halifax Tar

Easy fix if you can get access get onto the Web Query Tool go to MA Documents and follow the lead to Scales of issue following it to the various different scales. You will find the basic uniform entitlements for all people of all elements. This will solve it. I cant as I am on leave but once *I am back in Petawawa* in the new year I will again verify something I am quite aware of.

I don't know what SFA means... (Sweet F All I think) Please enlighten me

So what does the OS Sup Tech/Cook/Clerk wear as dress of the day while on his/hers 3 course ? Seeing as that is not a "naval establishment posn" you would see them in CADPAT ? Or some version of the CF dress ? (i.e. Salt and peppers) 

"That's nice, but that's not what we're talking about here; we're talking about purple people who by the Navy's own scale of entitlement were not entitled to an initial issue of NCDs as they were/had never been posted into or working for on a temp task a Naval establishment posn. Besides the fact that we are also discussing the current navy scale - which I guarantee you has changed at least 20 times since 1999 and your given example - and the current NCDs, not the old shrinking crap that we used to have in the dockyard circa 91/92 ... or 99. As a suppie you and I both know full well that how a scale read circa 99 means absolutely SFA as to how that scale reads today - or at least you should ... given your apparent TI."

First Comm Research is a "Purple Trade" I have sailed with them and know they are employed in all other environments. This PO1 was instructing some Comm Rsch course in Kingston hardly a Hard Naval Established Position and was entitled to NCDs. 

And again refer to the WQT which will give you scales, basic or operational or an combination there of for all personnel out there. Basic scales are to be issued, maintained and carried by the member so long as they remain part of that entitled environment. 

If you saw my post as "slamming" that's fine but it was just an observation made over this limited window called the internet and I stand buy it. If you disagree good for you, you know you best right ? I know I can still sleep at night not worrying about what is said on Army.ca, i sure hope you can too. 

Who and who's trade did I "slam" ? You could marginally argue I slammed our's but I could just as easily argue the other.

Criticism is a good thing Vern I hardly think "I sometimes get the feeling you resent your Naval counterparts" is a heinous "slamming" of ones self wouldn't you ?


----------



## armyvern

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Easy fix if you can get access get onto the Web Query Tool go to MA Documents and follow the lead to Scales of issue following it to the various different scales. You will find the basic uniform entitlements for all people of all elements. This will solve it. I cant as I am on leave but once *I am back in Petawawa* in the new year I will again verify something I am quite aware of.
> 
> I don't know what SFA means... (Sweet F All I think) Please enlighten me
> 
> So what does the OS Sup Tech/Cook/Clerk wear as dress of the day while on his/hers 3 course ? Seeing as that is not a "naval establishment posn" you would see them in CADPAT ? Or some version of the CF dress ? (i.e. Salt and peppers)
> 
> "That's nice, but that's not what we're talking about here; we're talking about purple people who by the Navy's own scale of entitlement were not entitled to an initial issue of NCDs as they were/had never been posted into or working for on a temp task a Naval establishment posn. Besides the fact that we are also discussing the current navy scale - which I guarantee you has changed at least 20 times since 1999 and your given example - and the current NCDs, not the old shrinking crap that we used to have in the dockyard circa 91/92 ... or 99. As a suppie you and I both know full well that how a scale read circa 99 means absolutely SFA as to how that scale reads today - or at least you should ... given your apparent TI."
> 
> First Comm Research is a "Purple Trade" I have sailed with them and know they are employed in all other environments. This PO1 was instructing some Comm Rsch course in Kingston hardly a Hard Naval Established Position and was entitled to NCDs.
> 
> And again refer to the WQT which will give you scales, basic or operational or an combination there of for all personnel out there. Basic scales are to be issued, maintained and carried by the member so long as they remain part of that entitled environment.
> 
> If you saw my post as "slamming" that's fine but it was just an observation made over this limited window called the internet and I stand buy it. If you disagree good for you, you know you best right ? I know I can still sleep at night not worrying about what is said on Army.ca, i sure hope you can too.
> 
> Who and who's trade did I "slam" ? You could marginally argue I slammed our's but I could just as easily argue the other.
> 
> Criticism is a good thing Vern I hardly think "I sometimes get the feeling you resent your Naval counterparts" is a heinous "slamming" of ones self wouldn't you ?



Yes, once you get back here to Pet (I am here now) - go ahead and verify what the scale reads now. But, no - it isn't "an easy fix" - YOU can't change the scale - even being a navy sup tech who can access them via WQT & homepage - rather, you can just look them up. Hell, even an SM(f) can't change the scale. I can assure you that I am very well familiar with their workings ... We'll perhaps meet one day soon ... this is my posting choice number one & 9erD is here. You can show me how to read scales. And you can tell me how Comm Rsch is a purple trade ... and you can tell me how THAT relates to how a scale reads today as opposed to 10 years ago? It doesn't. Two years ago, 043s weren't entitled to safety boots either, but they are now. Scales change. Your example has SFA (yes, you got that right) to do with now. 

Oh, and when you teach me how to use the scales, make sure you teach me how to read the *notes that accompany them ...  :  But really, there's no need for you to look anything up actually -- another Naval pers on this thread has already brough the conflict between the scale and the message to their CoC for invest. And I've already made sure it was brought up on the Supply side. Because, the Sup tech who works in clothing stores looked up the scale for me the first week of December (I have pretty-much non-existant DIN access as a student on a French course; I certainly don't have a computer) and they still read then "upon first posting into a naval establishment posn"; It'll have been a month and, as already noted in this thread, that conflict was then brought up through the supply and naval side of the house, so perhaps it'll be fixed by the time you're back to work.

My OS' came in to me ... with cadpat. They were also in cadpat and/or word dress last fall/winter (2008) when I was tasked to CFSAL as staff ... One of them went to work in clothing, another into the MSA (which also fell under me in the CoC) ... neither were, at that point in time last fall, entitled to NCDs.

I guess I'm wrong. You must be right. In 91/92* I * was entitled to the old NCDs ... I was NOT entitled to the new NCDs a couple years ago even had I been working in the exact same posn (in CSG in the Halifax dockyard) that I had been in in '91. Because until a couple years ago, the new NCDS were for "shipboard" use only and that is when entitlment kicked in. Guess what the other sailors wore? Their work dress. With the new NCDs entitlement was at first for "hard sea" posns first, then "navy establishment posns" ... and it keeps evolving & evolving ...


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## Nfld Sapper

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Two years ago, 043s weren't entitled to safety boots either, but they are now. Scales change. Your example has SFA (yes, you got that right) to do with now.



And as an Instructor at CFSME during that time I thank you for helping get the scales changed.


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## Halifax Tar

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Yes, once you get back here to Pet (I am here now) - go ahead and verify what the scale reads now. But, no - it isn't "an easy fix" - YOU can't change the scale - even being a navy sup tech who can access them via WQT & homepage - rather, you can just look them up. Hell, even an SM(f) can't change the scale. I can assure you that I am very well familiar with their workings ... We'll perhaps meet one day soon ... this is my posting choice number one & 9erD is here. You can show me how to read scales. And you can tell me how Comm Rsch is a purple trade ... and you can tell me how THAT relates to how a scale reads today as opposed to 10 years ago? It doesn't. Two years ago, 043s weren't entitled to safety boots either, but they are now. Scales change. Your example has SFA (yes, you got that right) to do with now.
> 
> Oh, and when you teach me how to use the scales, make sure you teach me how to read the *notes that accompany them ...  :  But really, there's no need for you to look anything up actually -- another Naval pers on this thread has already brough the conflict between the scale and the message to their CoC for invest. And I've already made sure it was brought up on the Supply side. Because, the Sup tech who works in clothing stores looked up the scale for me the first week of December (I have pretty-much non-existant DIN access as a student on a French course; I certainly don't have a computer) and they still read then "upon first posting into a naval establishment posn"; It'll have been a month and, as already noted in this thread, that conflict was then brought up through the supply and naval side of the house, so perhaps it'll be fixed by the time you're back to work.
> 
> My OS' came in to me ... with cadpat. They were also in cadpat and/or word dress last fall/winter (2008) when I was tasked to CFSAL as staff ... One of them went to work in clothing, another into the MSA (which also fell under me in the CoC) ... neither were, at that point in time last fall, entitled to NCDs.
> 
> I guess I'm wrong. You must be right. In 91/92* I * was entitled to the old NCDs ... I was NOT entitled to the new NCDs a couple years ago even had I been working in the exact same posn (in CSG in the Halifax dockyard) that I had been in in '91. Because until a couple years ago, the new NCDS were for "shipboard" use only and that is when entitlment kicked in. Guess what the other sailors wore? Their work dress. With the new NCDs entitlement was at first for "hard sea" posns first, then "navy establishment posns" ... and it keeps evolving & evolving ...



All right I think I'm lost now. I was only trying to show how all Naval DEU personnel are entitled to NCDs as it is the work dress of that environment, but not always the DOTD. I have no Idea what you think I should have been trying to change to address up through my CoC. What exactly should I be trying to change or address ? I believe the scales on the WQT all show the basic issue for naval personnel male and a separate one for female, and on those scales is the basic issue of NCDs. 

I'm glad you like Pet its good to see people be where they want to. When the career shop has the chance to make someone happy the should. I'm only in Pet on TD until we leave for Afghanistan. Enjoy it, I know its been eye opening for me.

What is your definition of a purple trade ? Mine is one who is employed in all environments regardless of uniforms. Com Rsch is one, in my books as they sail, go to the field and do air stuff too as a part of their primary duties. Also the fact that I have seen and worked with Navy and Army Comm Rsch people further supports my belief that they are purple as well but by arguing this I feel its petty I don't think this has much to do with the point. 

I am quite sure all Naval personnel are entitled to have NCDs and now with that message will be allowed to wear them in all environments which is good. If you are working on a base establishment like and MSA or Clothing Stores you wear the directed DOTD. That does not mean that those Naval personnel were not entitled to have on charge to there docs a complete set of NCDs. 

Don't get all bent out of shape over this with all the *"Oh, and when you teach me how to use the scales, make sure you teach me how to read the *notes that accompany them ...  :  But really, there's no need for you to look anything up actually"*kind of talk. I simply believe, to the best of my knowledge, that all Naval DEU personnel, whether hard sea or support, are entitled to a basic issue of NCDs issued during BRT that will be theirs to up keep and maintain for as long as the Naval DEU is that which they wear. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong I can deal with that but until proven I am I will go on believing I am not. 

When back in Pet, with access to a DIN computer, I will check this out and post my findings if you get to it first by all means have the pleasure. Until then relax have a beer and enjoy Petawawa. Merry Christmas right ?


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## McG

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> One last thing about Scales and our "rules" governing supply, don't let them get in the way of providing the best support possible. Your cap badge reads "Service Second to None", try to uphold that for all elements eh.


I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting not to let the rules governing supply get in the way of providing the best service?

Those scales are produced by the ECSs (in the case of MARCOM, I assume it would be N4 something or other) in consultation with the supply manager (in the case of NCDs that would be in DSSPM).   The ECS assesses needs, wants & benefits; the SM is consulted on item availabilities and costs; the ECS then make a decision on entitlement.

If you are handing out items to individuals that are deemed not-entitled, then you are disobeying an order.  I could find understanding for operational reasons, but not just so that little Johnny won't be the only un-cool guy without item X on his course.  If you issue out items to individuals that are deemed not-entitled, then you are consuming/wasting resources that you are not authorized to consume (because lets face it, the SM is going to have to spend money to replace that on the shelf).  Sure, maybe it is small dollar value in the big scheme of things, but aggregate that cost across on the supply techs "just trying to be a nice guy" across the country for the year ... the dollar values add up.  It is a lot of waste when one considers that those responsible for the resource (Navy HQ & DSSPM) have determined it was not required; and it would be especially worse in a time when we are hacking training & cutting reserve employment to save every dollar we can.

I'm sure that is not what you were suggesting though.


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## Halifax Tar

MCG said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting not to let the rules governing supply get in the way of providing the best service?



*I mean that when someone is in real need of something and you know that need is justified then issue the required item(s).* I have never once in 10 years in the CF as a Sup Tech seen anyone get in any trouble minor or major for ensuring that they provided the highest level of support. 

PS A shiny piece of kit to look cool on course X is not a real need its a want something very different.


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## armyvern

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> *I mean that when someone is in real need of something and you know that need is justified then issue the required item(s).* I have never once in 10 years in the CF as a Sup Tech seen anyone get in any trouble minor or major for ensuring that they provided the highest level of support.
> 
> PS A shiny piece of kit to look cool on course X is not a real need its a want something very different.



No see, the correct way to handle your situation above would be to adress the _real_ problem; amend the scale. You see, if 'common sense' dictates that individual "X" should have a piece of kit, but is not entitled to it ... odds are that there are more than individual "X" out there in the exact same circumstances. 

You, as a Cpl/LS have ZERO authority to issue that non-entitled item regardless of the situation, but what you do have is authority to handle the situation appropriately & to advise your CSG supervisor. You provide them with the details of such so that the CSG supr can then advise the SM (in writing) of ALL the pertinent facts and particulars & obtain written authorization back from the SM to "issue outside of entitlement" - a hard copy of which (the email auth from NDHQ) is placed into the member "x"s clothing docs for auditing purposes. That written auth also covers your butt when the auditors go through and begin firing questions at you as to why you are issuing nonauthorized items (I HAVE seen those auditors' invests happen too, more than once). This authority can be obtained in a matter of minutes. I've done it, and it was common for my staff to provide this customers reporting to our front counter looking for nonentitled items that "made sense". One quick call to the SM to explain the sit, and an email authorizing the issue 2 minutes later.

I then took the email and forwarded to the scale OPI along with all the relevant facts & details. The scale OPI then consults with applicable trade and/or environmental contacts to effect a change to the scale of entitlement so that there are no more "member Xs" out there in the exact same sit who experience the exact same problem each and every time they visit clothing. You FIX the problem, you don't simply ignore it's existance while accomodating "member X" by (illegally) issuing outside of entitlement & allowing all the others' to go through the same heartache at clothing stores' accross the country because the scale still does not reflect "common sense". 

In the case of the engineers not being entitled to safety footwear, the problem (along with "common sense" substantiation) was written up by me, by the RSM of CFSME, and by the Base Gen Safety O and all three of our reports were filed simultaneously with the scale OPI - who then did his appropriate consultations & the scale of entitlement was then amended within the week to show their entitlement to safety footwear. Thing is, when it was changed, there was still no entitlement for Engineering Officers to the safety footwear - so that issue itself was then re-addressed by us and their entitlement followed the next week.

When the new SOGs came CIS, entitlement was by Unit (by UIC); thing was, there was no entitlement for 4ESR to be issued the SOG despite them being an Engineer Unit and despite the SOG being intended as an Engineer knife. We noticed this problem while reviewing the PIP when we received it. The (then) RQ and I both drafted our substantiation to the project team immediately via email that very day ... and the scale was amended by 1600hrs that very same day. Therefore, not one individual "X" had a problem obtaining this item when we recd it into stock for initial issues and they will not have any future problems obtaining it either. And there certainly would have been problems had we not done our jobs and had the scale changed as we wouldn't have recd anywhere near the qtys required to issue to pers who required this item to do their jobs. Never again will engineers have problems obtaining their safety boots either (no matter who or where they are served at whatever front counter of clothing stores) because the problem itself was corrected ... not shuffeled off under the carpet as non-existant by ignoring "common sense" in that there are "others out there". And, the best part of it all, my troops' butts are covered!! They acted legally. The item was issued "with authorization" and they won't have to answer to anything/anyone should their issuing of a non-entitled item come to light. All because they took the extra 2 minutes to do something the proper way. The process exists for a reason and it does work.

As for you verifying the scale when you get back, have fun with that. It's been a month since (as stated how many times already in this thread) that the conflict between the scale of entitlement and the message was adressed - so hopefully it DOES read the way you wish it to now.

Oh yeah, I am well aware that Comm Rsch is a purple trade. I have enough TI & experience to fully grasp that despite what you may believe. The point of my statement (go ahead and read it again) was that what purple trades were entitled to, and in which posn, on an old scale and having been entitled to the old NCDs in '99 while in non-naval posns" has absolutely SFA to do with "purple trades and their end-Nov '09 entitlement to new NCDs in non-Navy posns". What an old scale on an old item of kit read in '99 does NOT mean that current scales of current dress items read same ... as a Sup tech, I'd think you'd have enough TI & experience to be able to grasp that yourself - apparently not.

You have a Happy New Year too.


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## Loachman

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> ... One of them went to work in clothing



I had to read that a couple of times, and then the next few words, to realize what you meant because my first thought was "That's good, because he/she would have been getting a lot of funny looks and comments otherwise".

My second thought was "What other unconventional dress policies does Vern inflict upon her subordinates?"


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## armyvern

Loachman said:
			
		

> My second thought was "What other unconventional dress policies does Vern inflict upon her subordinates?"



I do my very best to enforce "Chaps Saturdays" during riding season.


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## chief_of_da_fence

If they came up with a cad pat for urban environment,  which the NAVY typically works in while ashore I might be receptive considering that the colours typically used for urban environment might be appropriate for the marine environment.. I always think its kinda funny seeing that talking tree in the middle of the dock yard oh wait that a person Waring cadpat. there is one trade in the navy that always tries to pretend they are special forces and  always try to ware cad pat on naval exercises. inevitably they allways look like a bag of hammers.  and confuse people  leaving people to say why are those underwater hump bosun's out of the dress of the day lol.


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## CallOfDuty

chief_of_da_fence said:
			
		

> there is one trade in the navy that always tries to pretend they are special forces and  always try to ware cad pat on naval exercises. inevitably they allways look like a bag of hammers.  and confuse people  leaving people to say why are those underwater hump bosun's out of the dress of the day lol.


  Who are you talking about...Clearance divers?


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## chief_of_da_fence

No not Clarence diver I have respect for the Clarence divers.


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## armyvern

chief_of_da_fence said:
			
		

> No not Clarence diver I have respect for the Clarence divers.



Ahhhh, yet another one for the [/ignore] list this week ...  :

What's been dumped into our drinking water supply?


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## chief_of_da_fence

Sorry I sincerely have respect for the clearance  divers . I have a couple of clearance diver buddies.


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## Pat in Halifax

I am still stumped wrt the trade to which you are referring??? As for the original post, there are still Bases whose CO's are blatantly ignoring the CANFORGEN and whether 'Walt from Winnipeg" has personally seen this or not - It is a directive, no, an ORDER from the office of our highest ranking individual in uniform. 
What if one of us blatantly ignored dress Regs and showed up at work in whatever we wanted because we didn't "like" NCDs (or whatever your dress of the day is)????? I know Spike (Halifax's Base Chief) would tear the individual's and his divisional system a new one.


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