# Replacement Ambulances



## Dale Turner (21 Jul 2005)

I've been lookoing at our vehicle lines lately and I see four vintage (80's) cucv ambs.   As a member of our units amb pl. I've worked with these ambs quite a bit.   I'm just wondering if and by what are these vehicles going to be replaced with.(I'm wise enough not to ask when they will be replaced). 

Maybe someone can give me some insight.   IMHO we need a all terrain vehicle that can get over tank ruts etc. can cross small streams/creeks and have some limited armour against small arms. What about reworked Grizzlies? I know they're almost just as old as cucv ambs but I think it would be a huge improvement for the reserve fd ambs replacement vehicle.


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## mover1 (21 Jul 2005)

we had them once. The Mecedes unimog in germany.


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## Donut (21 Jul 2005)

Well, it's pretty much universally acknowledged that LSVWs are pieces of shite, and the Amb variants worse.

I've worked out of the Land Rover Wolf ambulance, on exchange in the UK and in Bosnia, and they're far superior to what we've got on the road now, although I've never worked with a Bison amb, which I've heard good things about.

The G Wagon can be had in a Amb variant, I know the Danes had them, http://www.armyvehicles.dk/merc290gdambu.htm   
that would be better for spares and service for them, too.


I wouldn't even mind the Fords (I think) sitting in 1 CFH lines in Pet, although not so much for the field or overseas.  Even a Milverado with a box would be better then what we've got now, but I wouldn't want one overseas.  

And while we're at it, we can do some crazy things like building in suction and oxygen systems, a decent seat for patient access, better storage, and some decent lighting (internal and external), too.

I think this could be a place where a milcots solution might be viable, I've seen enough robust 4x4 ambs out there, that it shouldn't be that hard to find a contender.

DF


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## Dale Turner (21 Jul 2005)

If we're just talking 4 wheeled vehicles you can add an ambulance box compartment to any chassis.   With all the bells and whistles pretty much standard equipment.(ie; lights, suction, seating and storage). The hard part is deciding which chassis to go with.   However if the christmas wish list is to be consulted I'd ask for a Mamba type vehicle. :

I just think though that if we're to be called fd ambs we should have ambs that can GO in the field.


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## Brad Sallows (21 Jul 2005)

The term "field ambulance" goes back quite a ways, prior to the era of widespread motorization.  "Field ambulance" is now a handy term for a hybrid formation close support unit which provides a mix of treatment and evacuation services (ie. a mix of "medical" and "ambulance" elements).  The field ambulance operates over a road network.  The vehicles don't need to have much more all-terrain capability than to cope with poor quality, chewed-up roads and short bits of cross-country on the in-route/out-route circuit of a facility.  An argument can be made for protection against small arms and shell splinters.  True cross-country capability belongs with the vehicles integral to manoeuvre units.  An additional argument can be made for a few such vehicles to be held by the field ambulance to accommodate exceptionally poor evacuation legs and as a replacement pool for vehicles in the manoeuvre units.

A reasonable design goal is a 4-litter pod sufficiently adaptable and of appropriate weight and size to be fitted to any vehicle chassis of nominal load capacity of 3/4 tons or more.

Except for the jump seat (useless) and protruding overhead pod light (annoying to dangerous) I thought the CUCV was decent.  We didn't seem to have the electrical problems on the coast of which I heard complaints from prairie users (cold weather).


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## medic2ic (21 Jul 2005)

My unit, which is a Svc Bn (Reserves) has one of the old CUCV ambs... and we still use it to this day. Its a good piece of machinery, just getting a little old and clunky. And is getting harder and harder to keep clean as the years go by. But I fully agree, we do need a replacement. Apperently there are plans out there in someones inbox for the CUCV box to adapt onto the Milverado. I've heard mention about that before. And keep those damn LSVW Ambs away, total piles of crap. Except for the patient loading system for the two upper litters, I fancy those compared to the CUCV. But nevertheless, the CUCV is our baby at our unit, you may have to keep her running for the entire weekend on exercise (tactical or not) because she won't start up again if you turn her off... but she's always gotten me from point A to point B with a short stop off for fuel and moderate repairs in the middle. All joking aside though... we need to find a replacement for us medics... and replacement equipment, or just a more workable amb all together. And I know we don't transport a lot.... but just for fun, can we have some kicken lights and sirens too? lol I'm a civi paramedic, and I like our civi lights and sirens.


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## Donut (23 Jul 2005)

In reply to Sqn Medic, we have an ambulance that has all those capabilities and then some, it's the Bison, there just aren't enough of them, and they're getting a little long in the tooth. (what ever happened to the air conditioning they were going to install, anyway?)

Any off the shelf amb body isn't going to be rigged for 2-pole litters, and certainly not for 4 of them with 6-pt bench seating, too. 24 V electrical is a problem, too.

AFAIK, we've got 5 ambs in use right now: Bison, LSVW, CUCV, E350s at 1CFH, and the road ambs held by some bases and CDUs.  None of them provide an all-around capability the field force needs.

As for the rest of the requirements, I think we're just looking at what we have now, and saying we need the same thing, but newer, when we should be seriously re-evaluating our equipment in light of our current standards of care, and our actual requirements, domestically in both a training and operational context, and overseas on deployments.

Do we actually need a 4-litter pod?  Should we think about doing away with the 2-pole litter altogether? Something we can decontaminate readily springs to mind.  An NBC filter system with HVAC?  A transport vent?  Infusion pumps? Telemed capable patient monitoring? temperature stable fluid & drug storage? An on-board water reservoir?  Integral decontam?

I don't think we should just buy a new chassis and throw our old stuff onto it, lets rethink the chain of evac, in light of the new, fluid battlespace, and design a new ambulance accordingly.  Maybe this time they might even ask some operators for design input.

What are the need to haves versus the nice to haves?  

DF


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## Gunner98 (23 Jul 2005)

At 1 Cdn Fd Hosp - we have Ford F450s - 15 of them, 2 x LSVWs (one of which is being refurbed), our 1 x CUCV is on permanent display up on metals blocks at the front entrance.   We are slated to receive 2 x Bison ambs sometime, somewhere over the rainbow.   The Ford will make its debut at BTE SP 05 and is being considered for use inside KAF camp.

I would prefer to have dedicated hel sp (Blackhawk) and Bison ambs for Role 1,2 with my F450s to take you from hospital to air head where rotary and fixed wing support was waiting.

The answer to the future of field amb vehs may lay with what the Army is willing to buy, as I don't know of anything in the works from the HSS side.   The Army was committed to buy 20+ Bisons which are expected off the assembly line in the near future.


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## Donut (23 Jul 2005)

I stand corrected, F450s then.

It's good to hear there are new Bison in the production chain, too.


DF


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## medicineman (24 Jul 2005)

I was part of the demo tream for the new Bison amb when the first was rolled out in Miramichi.  They are a bit behind sched for delivery right now - TFK were getting first dibs.  We finally got our first one here in Gagetown very recently, about 4 months behind sched.  Having said that, it is a great improvement over the older version.  There is more room, the litter system is set up so the patients are off set from eachother, so that the lower patient's head is clearly visible and accessible, the benches are designed to rotate centrally to allow for smoother loading and less wear and tear on the back, and lastly, there is wonderful, glorious AC in it.  Another good aspect is that with the armour upgrades done, it also got a bigger powerpack, so the "not so deployed" version (ie no bolt on armour) will cruise that much faster.  There are a whole pile of extra electrical outlets inside as well for all the extra medical equipment that's been added.  All in all, I was really quite pleased with the machine, having been a crew commander on an older one for a couple of years.  Now if they could just speed up production...

MM


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## Donut (25 Jul 2005)

Extra medical equipment?  Could you elaborate on that a bit, please?

DF


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## Dale Turner (26 Jul 2005)

I think that the Bison is the best vehicle we have so far for field evacs etc. and for road use I can see the arguement for another cucv type amb. but on a milcot frame. Maybe a two tiered system would work where the Bison would move cas. from the field or in battle zone areas to a UMS and then from there take the cucv amb. to the next UMS or BMS or hosp. I also believe that the reg force should be first in getting these vehicles but make them available to reserve Fd ambs to familiarize ourselves with them and so we can have some continuity of training. 

Another really good point was made reguarding ops in an NBC environment. The new vehicle, whatever it will be, should have NBC capabilities such as air filters/cleaners, a secure water source and decontamination equipment on board.  I know the US and Germany and I think the UK have a six wheeled vehicle Fuchs or Fox that is designed for NBC detection. Now I dont know if you could convert that vehicle into an amb. or not but surely some of the NBC technology could be incorporated into our amb.


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## Gunner98 (26 Jul 2005)

The RCMP Emerg Response Tm has a variant of the Ford F450 amb with NBCD or CBRN decon and over-pressure filtration capability.  They put 15 canisters of CS underneath the veh and no impact was felt inside.


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## Allen (26 Jul 2005)

> AFAIK, we've got 5 ambs in use right now: Bison, LSVW, CUCV, E350s at 1CFH, and the road ambs held by some bases and CDUs.



I could be mistaken, but is there not an M113A3 or MTVL ambulance on the way? Or at least planned?


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## medicineman (2 Aug 2005)

New gear includes an LP500, 2 x LSU electric suction units, a portable refrigerator, external bins for litters and boards, and better lighting equipment on board.

MM


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