# Smaller NATO Navies Struggle with Recruitment, Awareness



## OceanBonfire (12 Jan 2022)

> Three senior NATO navy officers said their countrymen have cases of “maritime blindness” and don’t understand how their navies operate.
> 
> Speaking at an international navies session at the Surface Navy Association symposium in Arlington, Va., Capt. William Quinn, naval attache at the Canadian Embassy, said despite his nation’s extensive coastlines on the Atlantic, Pacific and Arctic oceans, “I run into many Canadians that don’t know we have a navy.”
> 
> ...











						Panel: Smaller NATO Navies Struggle with Recruitment, Awareness - USNI News
					

Three senior NATO navy officers said their countrymen have cases of “maritime blindness” and don’t understand how their navies operate. Speaking at an international navies session at the Surface Navy Association symposium in Arlington, Va., Capt. William Quinn, naval attache at the Canadian...




					news.usni.org


----------



## dimsum (12 Jan 2022)

It might be just me, but the line about the NAVRES components inland makes it sound like it's a recent thing, when most units have been around since WWII.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (12 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> It might be just me, but the line about the NAVRES components inland makes it sound like it's a recent thing, when most units have been around since WWII.


The 1920s, to be precise.


----------



## FSTO (12 Jan 2022)

SeaKingTacco said:


> The 1920s, to be precise.


You beat me to it. The establishment of the RCNVR was in response to an attempt by the Army to take all the funding of defence (Post WWI) and shut down the Navy.


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Jan 2022)

Automating the systems to make up for smaller crews only works if you maintain the automated systems and make sure they work. We don't even allow enough time to do the maintenance right now, let alone actually do it. That will take a big adjustment from the Ops side to actually schedule 8 weeks of real time alongside for an 8 week short work period (without having 4 ships at the same time).

Our OPSCHED is the underlying issue that is killing us, and no point recruiting people if we do nothing about the issue that is driving people out and causing the ships to fall apart.


----------



## FSTO (12 Jan 2022)

The big heads are looking for the silver bullet that right now seems to be unmanned systems. While I am not a complete luddite I'm of the opinion that unmanned warships are a bridge too far. This article points out the shortcomings of LCS as one of the bell ringers to relying too much on this type of tech.









						The Unplanned Costs of an Unmanned Fleet - War on the Rocks
					

Two subjects are nearly inescapable in commentary about the U.S. Navy today. The first is the much-maligned, 15-year saga of the littoral combat ship



					warontherocks.com


----------



## stoker dave (12 Jan 2022)

I was part of a large cohort that started their education and careers in the Navy, then left at about age 30.  This was in the mid-1990's (a time of limited opportunity, force reduction programs, etc.).  Of my cohort that left, they went on to all kinds of different professions:  engineering, law, medicine, business, teaching, academics, etc.).   What is interesting now is if you look at their CVs, very, very few even mention ever having been in the Navy.  It's like that part of their life didn't exist or had no bearing on what they do now.   To me, that is one small aspect of how the Navy remains invisible.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Jan 2022)

stoker dave said:


> I was part of a large cohort that started their education and careers in the Navy, then left at about age 30.  This was in the mid-1990's (a time of limited opportunity, force reduction programs, etc.).  Of my cohort that left, they went on to all kinds of different professions:  engineering, law, medicine, business, teaching, academics, etc.).   What is interesting now is if you look at their CVs, very, very few even mention ever having been in the Navy.  It's like that part of their life didn't exist or had no bearing on what they do now.   To me, that is one small aspect of how the Navy remains invisible.



To be fair, given all the adverse media, I also try to play down my military background in my current occupation especially in some particular settings.

It's not worth losing clients who, after all, pay my staff's wages - and the mortgage


----------



## stoker dave (12 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> To be fair, given all the adverse media, I also try to play down my military background


Hmmm, you raise and interesting point.  

Not to take this too far off topic (it is related to Navy recruiting) but you allude to the idea that in the civilian workplace, former military service is a bit embarrassing.  

So instead of listing military service on a CV as a sign of pride, service to country, leadership experience, discipline, focus on mission, enduring hardship (or whatever trait we think civilian employers look for) should it be omitted because its not something in which there is pride?  

This opens up a whole new thought.  If (in general) former service people are acting this way, it really shows had bad things have become.


----------



## Good2Golf (12 Jan 2022)

…or the previous time in the Navy just isn’t relevant.  CV’s should be tailored to the opportunities being sought, and if something’s not relevant, it’s taking up room for something that is.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Jan 2022)

stoker dave said:


> Hmmm, you raise and interesting point.
> 
> Not to take this too far off topic (it is related to Navy recruiting) but you allude to the idea that in the civilian workplace, former military service is a bit embarrassing.
> 
> ...



It's not news that it's been bad for quite awhile. Decades.

Especially when some of the people I've worked for in the CAF, as a reservist, might be described (in any other walk of life) as dangerous socio-paths who, had I associated myself too closely with them in the small community in which I live, might find me painted with their psycho coloured tar brush.

If the CAF doesn't regularly 'clean house' and get rid of the dross, especially at the Senior Officer level IMHO, people like me will continue to keep their involvement in the CAF either a 'dirty little secret', or leave.


----------



## Halifax Tar (12 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> It's not news that it's been bad for quite awhile. Decades.
> 
> Especially when some of the people I've worked for in the CAF, as a reservist, might be described (in any other walk of life) as dangerous socio-paths who, had I associated myself too closely with them in the small community in which I live, might find me painted with their psycho coloured tar brush.
> 
> If the CAF doesn't regularly 'clean house' and get rid of the dross, especially at the Senior Officer level IMHO, people like me will continue to keep their involvement in the CAF either a 'dirty little secret', or leave.



Could this be regional ?  I know here on the right coast my service is a huge plus.  In fact I was head hunted last week, specifically because of my military experience.  I turned it down though.


----------



## Halifax Tar (12 Jan 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Panel: Smaller NATO Navies Struggle with Recruitment, Awareness - USNI News
> 
> 
> Three senior NATO navy officers said their countrymen have cases of “maritime blindness” and don’t understand how their navies operate. Speaking at an international navies session at the Surface Navy Association symposium in Arlington, Va., Capt. William Quinn, naval attache at the Canadian...
> ...



I'm not sure what more we can do... Press gangs anyone ?


----------



## KevinB (12 Jan 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Could this be regional ?  I know here on the right coast my service is a huge plus.  In fact I was head hunted last week, specifically because of my military experience.  I turned it down though.


Regional and Career Specific. 
    Certain jobs can generally require prior service - while others don't.   Plus depending what field and where it is, the lens they look at Mil service might not be rosy in some areas.


----------



## Kirkhill (12 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> The big heads are looking for the silver bullet that right now seems to be unmanned systems. While I am not a complete luddite I'm of the opinion that unmanned warships are a bridge too far. This article points out the shortcomings of LCS as one of the bell ringers to relying too much on this type of tech.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



FSTO

Would you operate a flotilla of patrol boats the same way that you operate a modern frigate?   What happens if you look at the LCS, and other lightly crewed vessels in the same manner as patrol boats?  Not as long ranging independent commands but as parts of flotillas tied to a deployment base with the navy's versions of MRT and MRV vehicles operating within the flotilla?

Also could there be better use of the Crew and a Half concept?  Three Divisions with one of them always ashore and regularly swapped out for sea duty?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (12 Jan 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm not sure what more we can do... Press gangs anyone ?


1.  Take an incredibly hard look at the sailing schedule and do a proper troops to tasks analysis, also decide what is critical to core business and what isn't.  Sorry, but a dog and pony sail with bureaucrats for a week, immediately after a deployment, is not a good use of sailors who just got back from seven months away.

2.  Actually follow pers management policies and implement a proper rest and rotation cycle (aka eliminate jetty jumping).

3.  Do some actual validation of the way the Navy does things.  There is so much confirmation bias in Navy it is almost comical.  The default answer to every time to someone asks "Why?" In the Navy is always "Because we've always done it this way!"

100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress is a real thing.  The problem is people are too educated and to smart for the BS now.

4.  Actually strive to certify people to Civilian Standards instead of reducing standards in a vein attempt to reduce people's ability to find employment elsewhere.

I thoroughly believe the CAF has a duty to make  Canadians better but also impart skills on them so that they can continue to serve in other ways once they transition out of the service.  Perhaps that Tech who was a rock star leaves the service with a Red Seal, starts his own business and becomes a leader in his community and speaks highly of what the Navy gave him. 

Instead, what we currently have is people getting pissed off and never speaking of or supporting the institution once they leave.


----------



## dimsum (12 Jan 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> 100 years of tradition unimpeded by progress is a real thing. The problem is people are too educated and to smart for the BS now.


Wasn't it 200 years?  Progress already!  



Humphrey Bogart said:


> I thoroughly believe the CAF has a duty to make Canadians better but also impart skills on them so that they can continue to serve in other ways once they transition out of the service. Perhaps that Tech who was a rock star leaves the service with a Red Seal, starts his own business and becomes a leader in his community and speaks highly of what the Navy gave him.
> 
> Instead, what we currently have is people getting pissed off and never speaking of or supporting the institution once they leave.


Bingo.  I'm actually surprised no one (even in the bitch-fest that is CAF Reddit) has mentioned that.  If people are pissed off, they're going to leave anyway.  

At least with a Red Seal or whatever, they can say "well the RCN gave me this", which may inspire someone to at least join up for a bit to get the same.


----------



## KevinB (12 Jan 2022)

dimsum said:


> Wasn't it 200 years?  Progress already!


100 years since they stopped with Rum, Sodomy and the Lash (at least publicly) 


dimsum said:


> Bingo.  I'm actually surprised no one (even in the bitch-fest that is CAF Reddit) has mentioned that.  If people are pissed off, they're going to leave anyway.
> 
> At least with a Red Seal or whatever, they can say "well the RCN gave me this", which may inspire someone to at least join up for a bit to get the same.


Nothing is too good for the troops, so that exactly what they get, nothing...


----------



## Halifax Tar (12 Jan 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> 1.  Take an incredibly hard look at the sailing schedule and do a proper troops to tasks analysis, also decide what is critical to core business and what isn't.  Sorry, but a dog and pony sail with bureaucrats for a week, immediately after a deployment, is not a good use of sailors who just got back from seven months away.
> 
> 2.  Actually follow pers management policies and implement a proper rest and rotation cycle (aka eliminate jetty jumping).
> 
> ...



100% in agreement but I think we both knew that.  Desolee, I had compartmentalized this into separate recruitment and retention and was more aiming at recruitment, I should have been more specific.


----------



## FSTO (12 Jan 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> FSTO
> 
> Would you operate a flotilla of patrol boats the same way that you operate a modern frigate?   What happens if you look at the LCS, and other lightly crewed vessels in the same manner as patrol boats?  Not as long ranging independent commands but as parts of flotillas tied to a deployment base with the navy's versions of MRT and MRV vehicles operating within the flotilla?
> 
> Also could there be better use of the Crew and a Half concept?  Three Divisions with one of them always ashore and regularly swapped out for sea duty?


The MTBs in the English Channel and the PT Boats in the Western Pacific worked that way. So that is nothing new. The LCS were sold as a multi-mission platform (by using interchangeable pods - a concept that never worked) with minimum crewing costs. It failed in that mission spectacularly.

As I said above, I'm not a luddite. There is a place for unmanned or minimally man vessels, but in conjunction with fully booted and spurred vessels and with a full realization that there will be no major savings by going min-manned or un-manned. There is no panacea, but an integrated set of units will work and maybe in the far future (long after I'm dead) the tech will match the concepts.

Also I haven't even touched trying to operate autonomous vessels in the EM denied environment.


----------



## Kirkhill (12 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> The big heads are looking for the silver bullet that right now seems to be unmanned systems. While I am not a complete luddite I'm of the opinion that unmanned warships are a bridge too far. This article points out the shortcomings of LCS as one of the bell ringers to relying too much on this type of tech.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thinking more about my "LCS Flotilla" response.

I have heard positive comparisons made between the billets in the Asterix to those in the CPFs.  Is there a way to exploit that when sailing in a Task Force?  Could crew assignments include a few days of rotation out of the CPFs for a short "decompression" in the Asterix?

Also, when the Task Force is at sea the Asterix supplies fuel and food and ammo.   I assume she supplies spares as well?  How about a senior engineering det of techs that can be put aboard the Task Force's ships when there is an immediate crisis, or even just an intractable problem?  To take the load off the watchkeepers and to mentor youngsters without the same experience?


----------



## Kirkhill (12 Jan 2022)

FSTO said:


> The MTBs in the English Channel and the PT Boats in the Western Pacific worked that way. So that is nothing new. The LCS were sold as a multi-mission platform (by using interchangeable pods - a concept that never worked) with minimum crewing costs. It failed in that mission spectacularly.
> 
> As I said above, I'm not a luddite. There is a place for unmanned or minimally man vessels, but in conjunction with fully booted and spurred vessels and with a full realization that there will be no major savings by going min-manned or un-manned. There is no panacea, but an integrated set of units will work and maybe in the far future (long after I'm dead) the tech will match the concepts.
> 
> Also I haven't even touched trying to operate autonomous vessels in the EM denied environment.



Points taken.


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Jan 2022)

OceanBonfire said:


> Panel: Smaller NATO Navies Struggle with Recruitment, Awareness - USNI News
> 
> 
> Three senior NATO navy officers said their countrymen have cases of “maritime blindness” and don’t understand how their navies operate. Speaking at an international navies session at the Surface Navy Association symposium in Arlington, Va., Capt. William Quinn, naval attache at the Canadian...
> ...



This is a classic marketing issue.

The Navy doesn't suck. The way the Navy is being marketed sucks, IMHO.


----------



## KevinB (12 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> This is a classic marketing issue.
> 
> The Navy doesn't suck. The way the Navy is being marketed sucks, IMHO.


Maybe both?
  Judging from comments from both the O and E ranks here and elsewhere - the Navy seems intent on making it suck for those fit to sail.
 Okay who am I kidding, the RCN doesn't have a monopoly on that (well sailing I guess, but the CA and RCAF seem to enjoy putting the screws to folks too).


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Jan 2022)

I can't put my hands on it, but there was a CIA guide from the 50s/60s that went into how to bring down a system from inside (which I believe was meant for self motivated dissidents in a Cold War country).

If I was a foreign agent embedded in the RCN required to render the organization ineffective over a long period of time I would probably sit back and just watch. Adding the DPS committee on top of the existing major procurement approval process was really just the cherry on top.

My $0.02 is that there is a lot of really good work being done to do more with very little, under unreal timelines with not enough resources and we so far keep dodging bullets while burning people out. Eventually we'll stop being able to do both/either, and the wheels will just fall right off. We've been burning the operational candle at both ends (and in the middle) for a couple of decades and the heroic efforts of the forgotten few can't paper over the cracks anymore. Not sure if the senior leadership is genuinely unaware of the real state of the ships, or if the are just all senior members of the Pollyanna Optimist Order of Canada, but the disconnect from reality is Cronenbergian.

(I could probably come up with some more cliched sayings but I'm still easing back from some much needed time off; I think I just used up my week's allotment of poetic license though).


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Jan 2022)

KevinB said:


> Maybe both?
> Judging from comments from both the O and E ranks here and elsewhere - the Navy seems intent on making it suck for those fit to sail.
> Okay who am I kidding, the RCN doesn't have a monopoly on that (well sailing I guess, but the CA and RCAF seem to enjoy putting the screws to folks too).



I'm guessing that if you were having to fight people away from the recruiting centres with clubs, some of the bigger 'over stretch and burnout' issues in the organziation might go away.


----------



## FSTO (12 Jan 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Thinking more about my "LCS Flotilla" response.
> 
> I have heard positive comparisons made between the billets in the Asterix to those in the CPFs.  Is there a way to exploit that when sailing in a Task Force?  Could crew assignments include a few days of rotation out of the CPFs for a short "decompression" in the Asterix?
> 
> Also, when the Task Force is at sea the Asterix supplies fuel and food and ammo.   I assume she supplies spares as well?  How about a senior engineering det of techs that can be put aboard the Task Force's ships when there is an immediate crisis, or even just an intractable problem?  To take the load off the watchkeepers and to mentor youngsters without the same experience?


When I was on my MARS IV we had 4 Squadron. Yukon, Saskatchewan, Mackenzie, and Qu'appelle were the old DDE's tasked to support training MARS/CSE/MSE officers and all the hard sea trades. 3 ships were always available for training with the 4th in refit. It was a fantastic capability but was unsustainable due to the age of the ships. 

Anyway with this background my MARS IV course involved sailing to New Zealand to participate in the celebrations of the 75th anniversary of the RNZN. Yukon, Mackenzie and Saskatchewan sailed in company with HMCS Provider (our first AOR) and we stopped in Tahiti, NZ, Sydney Aus, Tonga and Pearl Harbor on our trip. As I recall, the OPSKED was fairly light. We stood regular watch routines (1 in 4) coupled with our training during the working day. We'd have scream ex's (exchanging stations around the guide PRO during the night watches) and conducting RAS's as required and gunnery serials. Most of the work was done during daylight hours and even though I was immersed in training props and training itself it seemed the crew's work was not over whelming. Sunday routine was a real Sunday routine and the SOA was low enough that we had several chances for Swimming Stations and Banyans.
So there was really no need for "decompressing" on the tanker. 
It seems that once we got the CPF's there was a need to have the FLEX packed to the gunnels and Big Navy saying "YES SIR" to every opportunity to "do something" 

Anyway that's my two cents on how it used to be in the old Maritime Command.


----------



## KevinB (12 Jan 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> I'm guessing that if you were having to fight people away from the recruiting centres with clubs, some of the bigger 'over stretch and burnout' issues in the organziation might go away.


CATCH-22, who wants to join an entity that burns its folks out.


----------

