# Pace Sticks and Drill Canes



## GGHG_Cadet

I was wondering who carries what. At camp the camp RSM, the cadet RSM, and all the CSMs carried pace sticks so I was wondering who the heck carries a drill cane then?


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## MikeM

Well I beleive the DSM and RSM carry the pace sticks. In my corps I‘m a CSM and I carry a drill cane, as well as the other sergeant majors in my corps.

The RSM is the only one in our corps who carries the pace stick. It would make sense for a DSM and RSM to carry pace sticks because they are directly involved with overseeing drill, and doing pacings, etc..


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## GGHG_Cadet

Then what is the drill cane for?


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## Matt0304

Beating people...hehehe


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## army_chicky

Do they really beat people with the drill canes? what do they beat them for? is canada‘s army cadets more stricter than australia‘s?


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## chriscalow

Ok.  In cadets the RSM and the DSM only should have pace sticks.  A CSM or SSM should have a drill cane.  In my corps the RSM has a drill cane but that is because we are poor.  I am 2799.  The Sargeant Majors are unfortunately not allowed to beat people with their canes/sticks.  But If a Leader finds it necessary to hit a cadet with his or her stick, well then they are not much of a leader are they?  

The reason that an RSM or DSM should have a "PACE STICK" is because they are responsible for the DRILL Dress and Deportment of the Corps, squadron or Regiment.  Thus facilitating the need for a pace stick.

I actually retired from cadets tonight but would still hope to be corrected if I am wrong, but if not I hope this helps.


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## leader

> Originally posted by qy rang cdt:
> [qb]
> 
> The reason that an RSM or DSM should have a "PACE STICK" is because they are responsible for the DRILL Dress and Deportment of the Corps, squadron or Regiment.  Thus facilitating the need for a pace stick.
> 
> [/qb]


Does anybody know about sea cadets and pace sticks? I‘m the chief gunner of my corps which is equivlent to the DSM. At camp a pace stick used to be given to the best gunner, but has been since replaced with a drill cane, so I figure we may be allowed to use them at LHQ. Is there a CATO anywhere that outlines/restircts the use of pace sticks for sea cadets that you know of?


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## chriscalow

I wish I could find an awnser to this question.  In all honesty, I‘ve seen pretty much everyone from master corporal and up carry a pace stick.  Not always in cadet world of course.  I really dont know the exact rules about this.


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## GGHG_Cadet

Thanks for clearing that up for me. My DSM doesn‘t carry anything but my RSM carries a sword. Does anyone else‘s carry a sword.


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan

RSM‘s should only carry a sword on a Change of Colour parade.  Officers carry swords.


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## leader

I was under the impression that cadets carried cutlasses and officers swords.


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## Danjanou

qy rang cdt  

A pace stick is a teaching aid for drill, therefore it is theoretically possible for M/Cpl or even a Cpl to carry one presuming that he/she was engaged in instructing drill and had a need for it at the time. It would also help if they actually knew how to use it too.

For more formal parades it (depending on unit) is looked on more as a "badge of office" and therefore will probably only be carried by the RSM and DSM or (RQMS) and/or CSM/SSM.

Sometimes you‘ll also see and RSM and more rarely a CSM carrying a sword too. IIRC this is fairly common in Highland Regiments (at least the two I served with). Often the pace stick is also carried as the sword will remain sheathed throughout the parade. 

On my QL7 (MWO) course we had drill mutuals in ceremonial drill requiring the use for both swords(Who do you think teaches junior officers) and pace sticks. Naturally this meant taking both from the shacks to the classrooms every day. We also had plenty of classroom lectures and homework. 

You really haven‘t lived until you‘ve seen a platoon of Warrant Officers marching from point A to B all wearing sword belts, carrying pace sticks and with briefcases and QRO Vol 1-3 under our arms.


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## elscotto937

As most of the people commenting, are from various Cadet units and units across Canada, everyone must appreciate that there are regimental differences in the cerimonial carrying of the Drill cane or the Pace stick. It is interesting that some regimental traditions are held easier in the Cadet unit than the unit that they are supported by.


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## cdhoult

> Originally posted by leader:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by qy rang cdt:
> [qb]
> 
> The reason that an RSM or DSM should have a "PACE STICK" is because they are responsible for the DRILL Dress and Deportment of the Corps, squadron or Regiment.  Thus facilitating the need for a pace stick.
> 
> [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody know about sea cadets and pace sticks? I‘m the chief gunner of my corps which is equivlent to the DSM. At camp a pace stick used to be given to the best gunner, but has been since replaced with a drill cane, so I figure we may be allowed to use them at LHQ. Is there a CATO anywhere that outlines/restircts the use of pace sticks for sea cadets that you know of? [/qb]
Click to expand...

(Yes, I know this post is old...but it seems the answer isn‘t lying around...)

To answer your question in short: No, you cannot use a Pace Stick or Drill Cane. While I‘m aware than HMCS Ontario DOES award this, it does not mean it can be used. Much like every TG3 Gunner is issued a Gunners Chain, however, being a TG3 Gunner does not entitle you to wear it (Ref: CATO 35-01 Annex E Para 23 [I think that‘s the right para..]).

The Pace Stick and Drill Cane would fall under the, "If it‘s not mentioned, it‘s not authorized" segment that most dress regs contain. I believe the background that that is that it‘s simply not naval. Much like Air Cadets don‘t use cutlasses, and Army Cadet don‘t wear lanyard around our necks. Each element has it‘s own proud traditions.

As for Sea Cadets and Swords/Cutlasses...Sea Cadets will only carry a cutlass, as on the nautical side of things, a sword is a sign of a commission, and that of a gentleman. The Cutlass, more used a close combat/thrasing, etc, was more for the NCM‘s to use. Only a Sea Cadet in charge of a group of Men Under Arms may use a cutlass (It‘s the last para in 35-01 Annex E...can‘t remember the number).

As for the army side, well, I‘m still learning    I just came from Sea Cadets, so I‘m green for the last year or so of my cadet career. It was hard giving up the Coat of Arms...but I‘ll get over it. It‘s been quite the experience already!

CH


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## Franko

Well here it goes for cadets who are affilliated to a Armoured Regiment.

RSM...Pace stick/Blackthorne
SSM...drill cane/Blackthorne
Troop WO...drill cane/Blackthorne
Troop Sgt...Drill cane only

The Blackthorne canes were given to the 8CH by the Irish Hussars as a gift by the sister Regiment. As I recall the 8CH cadets were given permission for special occasions only to use these canes. It was only done once to my recollection.

The RSM NEVER carries a sword...only a pistol holster(painted black...goes to our calvery heritedge)

Sword bearers are the colour party escorts ONLY.

And of course in keeping with our calvery heritege, the calvery halt is performed whilst on parade.

Hope this answers some of your question.

Regards


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## GGHG_Cadet

Thanks for all of your very imformative posts. I guess my corp is a bit strange because our troop WOs and DSM never carried drill canes or pace sticks and my RSM wears a sam brown with a sword attached. Our current RSM knows proper sword drill which he learned from a former commanding officer, Major McCabe.


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## Franko

Is your affiliated Regiment GGHG?


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## GGHG_Cadet

Yes it is.


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## Franko

I‘m quite sure that those traditions aren‘t part of your afil Reg traditions(Armour)

Can‘t understand why the GGHG would allow this to happen.

Oh well. As long as th troops are having fun...that‘s all that matters.   

Regards


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## GGHG_Cadet

They‘d rather not have anything to do with us. The CO and Rsm come to our annual inspections and that‘s the only time we have contact with the Horse Guards. Guess it‘s cause there are two corps and the other one parades at the armoury with the Horse Guards.


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## chalk1

I was always under the impression that Amd corps used drill canes, and Inf etc used pace sticks.

BTW Franko, were still giving 8CH cadet RSM‘s Black thornes, something Peter started. CSM at our corps use the black drill cane with the bullet-thingy at the end. Can you fill me in on that one? I know its a Reg Force thing, but is it Amd only? And what caliber is it?


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## Franko

20mm aircraft ammo. No every drill cane(for the most part) in the CF has it. Mind you ours are ALWAYS painted black   

Regards


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## chalk1

But of course...thats a good song, too (paint it black).


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## Franko

Darn straight

Regards


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## madchicken

Tonight I got the corps' pace stick for a socials project.   On the way from cadets I was admiring it, and really began wanting to know how to do pace stick drill.   So I tried to look for it on the internet and failed.   So I was wouwondering any of you could direct me in the right direction.

Also, I'd like to just give a shout out to the 29 cadets that recently went on the New Brunswick exchange in Feb 24-28.   You guys were effing awesome, I feel like 250 Rocky Mountain Rangers has become a part of me.   As I hope 903 British Columbian Dragoons has become a part of you.

And just one last thing.  I'm starting pipes in my highland/mill band.  So I was wondering if anyone could give me a website with some good music (Black Bear, Scottland the Brave, Amazing Grace, Wings) and other stuff like that.  Or just find the music itself and e-mail it to me would great also.  I also play snare so if you guys could find it in drum music too that'd be great.  Thanks alot.


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## Zedic_1913

Pace stick drill can be found in the CFP 201 (Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial), I don't have my CD copy handy anymore ... but I'm sure someone else around here might.

As for the music ... ask your Band O (if you don't have a Band O then possible Trg O) to contact the RCMA (Regional Cadet Music Advisor), they might be able to acquire you the music you want.


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## madchicken

Awesome!  Thanks alot.  Would my training officer have the Drill Manual?  And yeah I never thought to talk to our band officer.  Lol.


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## TCBF

When you first start practicing, you will find that the "shoes" of the stick will slide on indoor concrete and wooden floors much more than on asphalt.  Remember the plugs to the old "rubbewr lady" air matresses? Cut the handle part of the plug off, and use it as an "overshoe" for a foot of the pace stick.  You need two plugs to do both feet.  It will stop the stick from skidding around as much.

Brings back memories - not all of them good.

Tom


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## madchicken

Lol awesome!  Thanks for the great tip...only it's not my pacestick, it's the corp's.  But I am gonna get a pace stick when I go to Vernon so that'll be a usefull tip.  And I think I know what you're talking about for plugs.  You can buy those in camping stores right?  Anywho thanks alot.


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## Jibbles

Wow...it's been years since I've held and used that pace stick. We must be going back about ten years ago when it was presented to me. I was the corps Regimental Sergeant Major at that time and I was also in charge of the drill team for a couple of years before that. Came in handy. If you want some imput on your project, I guess I'd be a good person to ask. I'd be happy to help. 8)


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## catalyst

madchicken said:
			
		

> And yeah I never thought to talk to our band officer.



I am your band officer. Yes, I have your music



			
				madchicken said:
			
		

> Would my training officer have the Drill Manual?



I have that one too.


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## madchicken

Heh lol.  ma'am it's so funny how you have like everything I have ever needed.  Lol...yes yes.  Anywho...hmmm...would you be able to bring music with you on tuesday?  OH!  I think we (Me, Jones, and White) should meet with you on monday and begin to think how things will be planned out.  Unless thats to soon.  I dunno.  I guess I should've PMed this eh?  Oh well


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## madchicken

Jibbles said:
			
		

> Wow...it's been years since I've held and used that pace stick. We must be going back about ten years ago when it was presented to me. I was the corps Regimental Sergeant Major at that time and I was also in charge of the drill team for a couple of years before that. Came in handy. If you want some imput on your project, I guess I'd be a good person to ask. I'd be happy to help. 8)



Wow this is so cool!!  So like....10 years then would be about 1995?  Heh was Routledge and Beager in the corps at the time?  Now it's 2lt. Routledge and OC Beager


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## q_1966

Take D&C and you will learn all about it  Trust me...but if you wanna know now, here is the all mighty drill bible, in all its glory

http://142.59.159.170/pams/cfp201_b.pdf


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## babin.j

Does anyone know of a good place to buy pace sticks?

Not the league one.


JB
Capt


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## Dane

The League stopped making them. They are very hard to find, I ended up getting my Corps' at another Corps.


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## Jonny Boy

you can always get one custom made. that would be the best bet. go and try and find a carpenter that would want the job.


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## Sgt_McWatt

You could also go to your affilieated unit's kit shop? I know mine's sells them.
Regards,


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## 3rcr_duhamel

I never knew you could buy them!!!  That's awsome!!!

 Fallschirmjager


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## c4th

The real deal:

http://www.egframes.co.uk/paceindex.htm


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## Jonny Boy

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> http://www.pennys.ca - identical to the ones the CF uses.  Myles Penny is an Officer with the cadet corps down there.



how do you get to the Drill canes and pacesticks? i cant seem to find them


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## axeman

try a reg foce kit shop  you can find em in the  ppcli and rcr kit shops


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## Blakey

axeman said:
			
		

> try a reg foce kit shop   you can find em in the   ppcli and rcr kit shops


Our BN Kitshop doesnt sell them (2VP)...but our trade guys..umm i mean FST makes them for the unit.


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## Burrows

-Hutch- said:
			
		

> how do you get to the Drill canes and pacesticks? i cant seem to find them


  Email him.  He has them in stock but said he doesn't put it on the website.  I'm going up to t-bay so I'm paying him a visit..the corps needs some new ones.


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## axeman

http://www.thercrkitshop.com/index.php?page=products/index.php&indid=393


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## Bergeron 971

I was part of three Cadet corps during my time in Cadets.
One being a private cadet corps, now shut down.
One being, 2360 Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa, Disbanneded.
and the 2644 Le Regiment de Hull
I am a Civilian Instructor at the 2644.
its a Armoured regiment.
Our traditions are as follows.

RSM, Regimental drill cane. Every RSM and his/her reign is added ontn it.
DSM's and CSM's carry black pace sticks.

We're at the point of retiring the Regimental Drill cane and turning it into a trophy. I am resoncable of building an exact replica of the old cane to replace the old one.
If this thread lasts, I'll post pictures on the old Cane and the trophy that it'll be built out of, and the new drill cane being built.
Thats if poeple are interested,


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## Dane

Just justification for CSMs carrying pace sticks at the CSTC was because they were running a lot of the drill oriented training as opposed to the RSM. This differs from the CF model, so we differed who carries which accruement. That said, in Vernon CSMs used to be presented drill canes.


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## medic65726

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> Thanks for all of your very imformative posts. I guess my corp is a bit strange because our troop WOs and DSM never carried drill canes or pace sticks and my RSM wears a sam brown with a sword attached. Our current RSM knows proper sword drill which he learned from a former commanding officer, Major McCabe.



Then things have changed. We used to have Drill Canes for RSM and DSM. Sword was only for Ceremonial purposes. Other days.....THE CANE...........


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## solid1191

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> Thanks for clearing that up for me. My DSM doesn't carry anything but my RSM carries a sword. Does anyone else's carry a sword.



i get a sword and a pace stick, but my sword stays in my scabard


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## GGHG_Cadet

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Of course not   They were just joking around.  People aren't beaten in cadets - they can't be touched without permission.
> 
> With our Corps, the RSM is the only one who carries a pace stick.  We're not big enough of a corps (currently around 50 cadets) to have the DSM or a CSM with a pace stick.  The one is enough to pace anything out when it's required.  During camp, the RSM had a Drill Cane this year, while last year the RSM used a Pace Stick.



For the past two years the RSM of Blackdown has carried a drill cane and all the CSMs pace sticks.


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## gunner56

I'm a C.I. with 1292 LdSH RCACC,and in our Corps,The RSM carries a pace stick,CSM and troop commanders (W.O.'s or Sgt.'s)have drill canes.


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## GGHG_Cadet

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly CWO Holmes carried a Pace Stick during our Graduation, as well as Batallion Parades.


Nope it was a drill cane that he made for himself. Were you not a basic that year? If you were you would not have been on Battalion parade. The drill cane he did make was passed on to CWO Sheppard this year.


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## Zedic_1913

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Oh, alright, must have been thinking of someone else from another time.   Sorry about posting Batallion Parade - I know weren't on it then because of being on Basic course - I meant the time that we were posing for the Batallion picture, but couldn't think of it.


Let me clarify here ... Holmes did not make the drill cane he used in 2004, it was an old one that they gave him that year, he stripped and repainted it though.  For some large parades in 2004, the RSM did use a black pacestick.  This past summer Blackdown had a pacestick and sword donated by I believe a former RSM of the RCDs.  As such the RSM used that drill cane only for ceremonies and parades (had a silver end with the RCD insignia), and the other drill cane the rest of the time (brass end).  Also I believe the CSM of A Coy used the sabre for the Sunset Ceremony, however I wasn't there at that point to verify that.


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## Zedic_1913

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> He did use a sword, not sure if it was the one you're thinking of though.


He obviously used a sabre, as the guard commander does every year.  From the pictures it resembles the sabre that was kept in the HQ, however my memory of the details isn't that accurate.


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## Big Foot

No, only officers carry swords.


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## Dane

Big Foot said:
			
		

> No, only officers carry swords.



NCOs can carry sheathed swords. I'm not sure if it's just CWOs (thats all I have seen, and only Infantry CWOs as a matter of fact)....


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## MWO.Bovie

CWO. Holmes did not make his drill cane or get it issued ..it was given to him by the RSM as it was his When he was a cadet  :warstory:  :threat:


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## geo

The Cane.... 
Canes are handed down from RSM to RSM and in some units from SSM to SSM. These canes will usually have silver heads and bands with the names of past RSM/SSM. They're heirlooms and should be well cared for.

Pace stick.... is a tool, a training tool. Any Sgt or above who requires this measuring aid is entitled to / should be using it.


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## Burrows

geo said:
			
		

> Any Sgt or above who requires this measuring aid is entitled to / should be using it.



I disagree, setting a rank makes it look like an accoutrement.  Anybody who needs it, should be issued it.


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## GO!!!

geo said:
			
		

> The Cane....
> Canes are handed down from RSM to RSM and in some units from SSM to SSM. These canes will usually have silver heads and bands with the names of past RSM/SSM. They're heirlooms and should be well cared for.
> 
> Pace stick.... is a tool, a training tool. Any Sgt or above who requires this measuring aid is entitled to / should be using it.



This is not the case in the infantry.

ALL of the SNCOs in my unit have drill canes, and are expected to carry them on certain occasions.


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## GO!!!

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> Just to inquire, why would a Sergeant (for example) need to carry a pace stick if they were acting as a Platoon's 2IC.  Could they not use the Platoon WO's (if they were to carry one) instead?



All PPCLI SNCOs carry drill *canes*- pace sticks are an affliction that we have thankfully seen fit to do without!!

Usually the cane is only carried for ceremonial drill. Some of the NCOs in the schools also carry the cane on a daily basis.

I've never heard of the canes being handed down - but other units may do it.


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## ouyin2000

Generally, the drill canes and pace sticks would be returned to supply, and then re-issued to the next person to hold the position. The purpose of the "handing over" is purely ceremonial.


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## geo

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> I disagree, setting a rank makes it look like an accoutrement.  Anybody who needs it, should be issued it.


you're welcome to your opinion - most times, Sgt's teach drill and the MCpl assists... therefore Sgt has a need for a pace stick.

The pace stick is not a decoration, it has a very specific use and should not be "bastardized" into being a "status symbol" or "chain of office". 
If anyone has it but does not have a clue on how to properly use it, then it should be returned to QM where it belongs.


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## geo

GO!!! said:
			
		

> All PPCLI SNCOs carry drill *canes*- pace sticks are an affliction that we have thankfully seen fit to do without!!
> Usually the cane is only carried for ceremonial drill. Some of the NCOs in the schools also carry the cane on a daily basis.
> I've never heard of the canes being handed down - but other units may do it.


Pace sticks are DND property and are returned to QM after they are no longer required.
RSM and some SSM canes are Regimental Heirlooms that do not belong to the individual and which the Unit Fund should pay to have maintained.
Sr NCO canes... something like the old officer "swagger sticks" are personal property. Most units require that Sr NCOs carry weapons on ceremonial occasions - same as all ORs .... so those canes (which NCOs are made to purchase) never see much use.


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## George Wallace

ARMYboi69 said:
			
		

> So would they carry them onto parade and form up with them?  Or were they only for use with the drill classes?


 :brickwall:
What planet are you from?


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## Pronto123

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> I was wondering who carries what. At camp the camp RSM, the cadet RSM, and all the CSMs carried pace sticks so I was wondering who the heck carries a drill cane then?


Ok, camp is different than CC. As a GGHG CC you are affiliated to an Armoured Unit, which by tradition caries Drill Canes. As an ex-GG (2402) I can tell you that no one carries pace sticks. All Snr Ranks SSMs, RSM, others have drill canes.

In camp, they are all considered Inf. so Pace Sticks for all (as far as I know. (Blackdown))

if you have anyother questions about the GGHG Reg. or Corps. Let me know.


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## GGHG_Cadet

Don't worry Kenchin I think I know my stuff about the Horse Guards now, I was pretty new when I posted that. I'm a Master Warrant Officer now so I should be ok, but thanks for trying to help.

GO, thanks for answering that question for me. I had a PPCLI WO as the Reg. Force CSM of my company this summer and he carried a drill cane and I was wondering why.


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## Buschgirl427

This also simply depends on what the corps has available to them. Some corps only have drill canes because they're cheaper, and others only pace sticks. It's also at the CO's discretion.


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## bms

At our corps, its like this:

 RSM/CWO -> Pace Stick
 CSM -> Black Pace Stick
 DSM -> Pace Stick
 Platoon Commander -> Drill Cane
 Guard Commander -> Drill Cane

 The Black Pace Stick doesn't make much sense, unless its symbolism from something in the RnR(Royal Newfoundland Regiment). Plus, we have extra pace sticks(normal ones).

 We are affiliated with C Company of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment, which are Light Infantry Reserves.


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## geo

black pace sticks is an RCR thing....


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## tabernac

Oddly enough, my corps' used to parade with Drill Cane and Pace Sticks. Only in the last year have we stopped. And yes I am a SEA Cadet. The corp was given the Drill Cane and Pace Sticks in 2000 when we went to Britian. A Royal Marine cadet unit gave our Cox'n the Drill Cane, and the 2 Parade Gunners, Pace Sticks. The Drill Cane and Pace Sticks were only used for our ACRs and Ceremonial Divisions.


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## quadrapiper

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> Oddly enough, my corps' used to parade with Drill Cane and Pace Sticks. Only in the last year have we stopped. And yes I am a SEA Cadet. The corp was given the Drill Cane and Pace Sticks in 2000 when we went to Britian. A Royal Marine cadet unit gave our Cox'n the Drill Cane, and the 2 Parade Gunners, Pace Sticks. The Drill Cane and Pace Sticks were only used for our ACRs and Ceremonial Divisions.


Not cool... that said, RCSC cadets aren't prohibited from using pace sticks, any more than tape measures. If you have one around the place, and wish to use it to mark out the square, use it. Just not "on parade." Then, the guard PO and flag party commander carry cutlasses (I've seen a reference where the cox'n, if there are armed groups on parade, will carry a sheathed cutlass - in one of the old Vol I/II manuals  - but that doesn't seem to be current practice), while all others content themselves with what accoutrements they are entitled to - which doesn't include pace sticks or drill canes.


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## Danjanou

bms said:
			
		

> The Black Pace Stick doesn't make much sense, unless its symbolism from something in the RnR(Royal Newfoundland Regiment). Plus, we have extra pace sticks(normal ones).
> 
> We are affiliated with C Company of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment, which are Light Infantry Reserves.



Not that I'm aware of or they changed or added something to the regs. I carried a regular natural wood coloured patchfinder pacestick while I was in A Coy 1st Bn RNFLDR. Someone in the late 1980's had a idea that all Pacesticks (1st Bn never had drill cans at least then) would be painted Burgundy, fortunately nothing ever came of it.



			
				geo said:
			
		

> black pace sticks is an RCR thing....



Among other Regiments. I had to paint mine Black when I transferred to the Toronto Scottish.


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## Rick031

Im PPCLI and I use the Drill cane on form ups Coy or BN.I bought my cane so it is mine. I bought mine so I keep it. I do not see it being abused......1 VP  Red Devils


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