# Buying/selling Medals Superthread [merged]



## Bulvyn

I went to a military surplus store to see if there is any important kit I may want extra of. While I was at the store I noticed they had medals for sale. Mind you they weren‘t Canadian medals so I am not even sure on the laws regarding it however most of us know it is possible to sell or buy most medals from stores.

My question is how does that make you feel? Being in the military myself (although not far along) I still have much respect for anyone who has earned a medal and the fact that some civilian who has no idea of what that means to someone could just go out and purchase one. I felt kinda angry at the thought but I suppose it could just be my way of thinking. What do you think?

The same question goes out to people who would sell their medals. Now I didn‘t see any Canadian medals so I am not sure if Canadians really do sell their medals but if it does happen, why would you want to?


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## Art Johnson

If you are like me they get sold because some ******* stole them.

Pro Patria


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## Michael Dorosh

There are plenty of medal collectors in the world; I‘d rather see medals get bought, framed, and displayed with respect than simply thrown out.  Many widows or sometimes even vets themselves simply pitch them after many years thinking them worthless.

They‘re not, they‘re a testament to somebody‘s service and dedication to our country.

The more visible, tangible signs we have of past servicemen, the better.  They are regarded as serious collectibles, and can be used to start conversations and dialogue about many subjects; bravery, heroism, sacrifice, the state of the military, etc.

I‘ve done a few re-enactment displays in WW II uniform, and a friend of mine had his replica medals on a display board, showing the various WW II medals.  No bravery medals, just the campaign medals, and quite often we got more questions and comments about them than we did the uniforms, vehicles, weapons or equipment we had on display.  Usually along the lines of "my dad had that one and that one - what do they mean?"

That said, it is an offence under the Criminal Code to wear medals that one is not entitled to, with certain exceptions, including stage work, acting, possibly re-enacting, etc.  You are not permitted to wear medals of a relative.  It used to be an unofficial practice, where you wore the medals of a relative on the right side on Rememberance Day, but this has never been "legal" and has pretty much fallen from use altogether.

There‘s no reason buying medals should be illegal, and it isn‘t.  Wearing them is.

In the United States, it is illegal to buy or sell replicas of the Medal of Honor.  Germany has laws against displaying medals with the swastika.  So other nations have different views.

As to why people would want to sell their medals, I would imagine there are two main reasons

a) destitution
b) ignorance


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## winchable

I was recently at a flea market and there was a medal collector, and I asked how he had managed to get so many medals. He said that he had gotten most of them from surplus stores, but some people sell them to him because they need the money desperately (As was the case with most of the foreign medals sadly IE. Former Soviet Union medals, and other CIS Countries) while some are sold because the person who owns them dies and the relatives don‘t care about them, which is really sad.

Personally I would rather someone buy my medals at a flea market and have them framed and treated with respect than have my relatives who don‘t care about them stuff them in a sock drawer.


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## John Nayduk

Quite a few years ago the price of silver went through the roof.  Many World War 1 & 2 medals were sold for scrape metal value and melted down to be lost forever.   Better that a collector buy them and treat them with respect that the medals get thrown out, lost or destroyed.


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## AlphaCharlie

I collect WW2 German medals, and I have a lot of respect for the men (even though they were enemies) who earned the medals.

I have them displayed in a glass case, and I plan on getting more when my seller gets back from Op. Croc....

I currently have:
Eastern Front medal (russian vs german, 1942)
3 Hindenburg crosses (given to ww1 vets in Germany)
1 Silver Wound badge
1 black wound badge
1 Atlantic Wall medal (for those who build the AW)
1 cross that I forget the name of.

Once the reserves start to pay I will be purchasing more. The history behind each medal is what keeps me buying them...

I also own links of allied 20mm AP shells and a german K98 bayonette...

Basically, I have a lot of respect for people who have earned medals...

And about buying medals: I dont think its bad if they are Old (ww1, ww2, etc) because they are more antiques...


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## Roger

Be carefull with medals, for one the Government does not sell them as surplus. And there is many companies that make copies. I had a company make a set for my uniform for me, they had all of the copies in stock, even many of the top bravery medals. The reason I wanted to wear the copies is that I did not want to loose my originals.


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## L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan

Purple Hearts (Enemy Marksmanship Awards) are a dime a dozen.  Everyone gets one.


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## Roger

> Originally posted by L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan:
> [qb] Purple Hearts (Enemy Marksmanship Awards) are a dime a dozen.  Everyone gets one. [/qb]


Well I do not want to get drawn into a argument, but only those who are wounded get the purple heart, we do have chapionship shot in Canada. I am a good shot but I would never get one, the men and woman who get the medal are outstanding shots


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## Michael OLeary

Argyll, campaign medals are given to "everyone" who qualified by being in theatre during the dates of a conflict. Awards denoting having been wounded, either a Purple Heart (US) or wound stripes (Cdn), are only received by those individuals who have been unfortunate enough to merit them. 

Wound Stripes FAQ 

The Purple Heart 

Flippant comments regarding the awards to injured soldiers will seldom be regarded well by other soldiers.

Mike


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## portcullisguy

I own one medal.  It is a Commander of the Order of the British Empire miniature.

My intention is to mount it in a box frame with a picture of the recipient of the original - my late grandfather.

I had a British Golden Jubilee miniature, but sold it to someone from my regiment who collects medals (I thought it was a Canadian jubilee, and that this person would wear it as they had a full-size jubilee.. but turns out I was wrong!)

That‘s it for me for medals.

My uncle holds several.  One is his (South Atlantic Medal, 1982), with oak leaf and rosette.  The others belonged to forefathers.  The oldest is an Arctic Medal 1818-1855.  There is a China Medal (1901), Khedive‘s Medal (1896) the only foreign one, and three WWI medals, the 1914-1915 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal.  They are all neatly framed, except for his Falklands one.

They are well cared for, and if I have anything to say anout it, will remain in the family possession and be passed down to my children, when the time comes.


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## Spr.Earl

A lot of the medal‘s you see in store‘s are the result of old Vet‘s selling them because they need the money or Families who don‘t care and just think they are junk.

Pretty sad in my opinion.


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## Bulvyn

I can understand your point of view. I would rather have someone I don‘t know cherish it then someone I do know treat it with complete disregard for how great it is. I suppose I didn‘t consider the point of view because I don‘t understand what it would be like to not care about a medal. Perhaps when I have one (assuming I ever do) I will understand more.

It is nice to hear that collectors who havn‘t earned the medal can‘t wear them. At least there is still something we can hold onto.


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## Michael Dorosh

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4795/index.htm 

Scroll down for a look at what Michael Jackson is wearing these days.

Also an interesting bit about Canadian reservists getting US achievment medals but not being allowed to wear them.


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## Infanteer

> Also an interesting bit about Canadian reservists getting US achievment medals but not being allowed to wear them.


Good, I am a firm believer in that a medal should be earned.  Doing your job on a training exercise doesn‘t warrant a gong.  For some reason the US military seems to have a "medal culture."


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb]   http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4795/index.htm
> 
> Scroll down for a look at what Michael Jackson is wearing these days.
> 
> Also an interesting bit about Canadian reservists getting US achievment medals but not being allowed to wear them. [/qb]


Also Mike look what badge is he wearing on the pocket of his blazer?Look‘s like the British Guard‘s Cap Badge?


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Spr.Earl:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
> [qb]     http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4795/index.htm
> 
> Scroll down for a look at what Michael Jackson is wearing these days.
> 
> Also an interesting bit about Canadian reservists getting US achievment medals but not being allowed to wear them. [/qb]
> 
> 
> 
> Also Mike look what badge is he wearing on the pocket of his blazer?Look‘s like the British Guard‘s Cap Badge? [/qb]
Click to expand...

I think one of the articles mentions he was wearng a blazer crest of the Royal Army Service Corps. It‘s not illegal, but I think it does the RASC discredit.  You don‘t _have_ to earn the right to wear a blazer crest....but you should!  Good catch.

EDIT - you are right about it looking like a Guards badge; the same star was used as the basis for both designs.


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## Spr.Earl

Mike you are a Cornucopia of knowledge


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## muskrat89

The guys getting the US medals... I know every single one of them! I served in 3 RCA for 13 years...  Interesting story


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## dwild40

Many years ago, while I was on tour with some band in Northern Ontario. I was longing in my hotel room on a Remeberance Day watching TV and CBC broadcast an old movie, 1970‘s where a Vet was returning to his boarding house room after Rememberance Day ceremonies was mugged and his medals stolen.  The last prized possessions of his life.  Anyway the crook tried to sell them and in the process learned what they were for.  He tracked the Vet down and returned them with an apology.  Wish I could remember the name of the movie.  It made me misty...


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## Bill Smy

On numerous occasions, I have read that in Canada it is not illegal to sell military decorations or medals. Although this is true as far as the Criminal Code is concerned, individuals subject to the Code of Service Discipline conduct an illegal act if they do so. 

The National Defence Act states:

"s116. Every person who...

(c) sells, pawns or otherwise disposes of any cross, medal, insignia or other decoration granted by or with the approval of Her Majesty,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment."

 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/N-5/index.html 

Now the question. On first reading, it would seem that this would apply to someone disposing of a medal granted or awarded to him. But when you read it a second or third time, it does not state that. Could it be that a person subject to the Code could be charged if he sold his grandfather‘s medals?

Hope this keeps the Barrack Room Lawyers busy (at least for the time it takes to bang back a reply).

  :rocket:


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## Old Cent Hand

Oh My God! I sent my Queen‘s Jubilee Medal, along with the certificate, to my Mom. My CD2, is still in the box!They are " Give Me‘s". Now if I had a Bravery Medal, something that meant I had "Exeeded Expectations", that would be a different story. I have enough "Been Away From Home" medals.


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## Old Cent Hand

After all , going overseas is part of the job. I can‘t wait until we get a medal for passing Basic, or passing our Trades Training. We knock the American Army ,for getting recognition , for every little thing they do, we are becoming the same way ,get a "Gong" or a ribbon for showing up.A guy "in the rear wth the gear", who never leaves the base camp ,gets the same benefits , same medal, as a Combat Engineer , clearing mines, digging up mass graves,etc,that‘s wrong. And if anyone out there doesn‘t like my attitude , " Bite Me".


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## Michael Dorosh

> Originally posted by Old Cent‘ Hand:
> [qb]And if anyone out there doesn‘t like my attitude , " Bite Me". [/qb]


Best way to get rid of a troll is to ignore him.  So my response to you is as follows:


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## Old Cent Hand

I got bad news for you " Sunshine " , I just stated my "point of view", and " If the shoe fits , wear it" .


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## Infanteer

> A guy "in the rear wth the gear", who never leaves the base camp ,gets the same benefits , same medal, as a Combat Engineer , clearing mines, digging up mass graves,etc,that‘s wrong. And if anyone out there doesn‘t like my attitude , " Bite Me".


I remember sitting with an old veteran at a unit dinner who had quite an impressive salad bar from Italy and Northern Europe.  He was a truck driver; nothing more, nothing less.  

Who are you to tell this old guy "Hey pogue, you don‘t deserve s**t because you weren‘t at the front...."

A campaign ribbon is precisly that, a campaign ribbon.

PS - The rear ech guys in Iraq running convoys and getting rocketed everyday appreciate your support.  Bite me.


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## Gunner

> I remember sitting with an old veteran at a unit dinner who had quite an impressive salad bar from Italy and Northern Europe. He was a truck driver; nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> Who are you to tell this old guy "Hey pogue, you don‘t deserve s**t because you weren‘t at the front...."
> 
> A campaign ribbon is precisly that, a campaign ribbon.
> 
> PS - The rear ech guys in Iraq running convoys and getting rocketed everyday appreciate your support. Bite me.


Amen to that, Infanteer.  It‘s nice to have a cold beer, fresh rations, fuel and ammunition for your weapons and vehicle, travel assistance, hardship, risk, FSP bonuses, etc, etc.  They are all provided by the rear echelon guys.  

Old Cent Hand seems to be simply a troll.  Reminds me of Recce41 until he smartened up.


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## Old Cent Hand

Hey guys , I said a " Guy in the rear with , the gear", I mean‘t a guy who never leaves the the safety of the base. I have alot of respect, for MSE OPS, Supply Techs, Mechs, etc, that came under fire.Read between the lines. I hate the " Bin Rat " that says " Combat Arms" guys are Dummies, and that his trade should get " Spec Pay". Call me a " Troll", look in the mirror " Loser.


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## Gunner

> Call me a " Troll", look in the mirror " Loser.


Old Cent Hand, you are a ******* new guy to this forum.  You have pissed off many long time and respected contributors to this site.  Give and show respect and you will slowly earn respect at this site.  Until you do this, your infantile name calling simply diminishes the esteem I hold for Sr NCOs.  As you were probably told many years ago, think before you speak.


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## Old Cent Hand

Just stating my opinion, sorry, I am very opinionated by the way.I will go to the UMS , and seek , " stress management". As for the negative comments, I will be punished,I will place myself in a burlap bag , and have my peers beat me.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Lets nip this one in the bud before it gets out of control. 
Old Cent Hand, I am VERY opininated also but I wait untill I‘m called out before I would ever spout a line like "and if anyone does‘nt like my attitude they can bite me". Next time just try stating your opinion and save the remarks for a better time and place. Trust me they do[and will] occur here.
OK back to the topic.......


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## Old Cent Hand

You‘re right! Thank God , for the Guns.You gunners have a habit of , showing up , when we need you most!
UBIQUE!


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## Spr.Earl

> Originally posted by Old Cent‘ Hand:
> [qb] Just stating my opinion, sorry, I am very opinionated by the way.I will go to the UMS , and seek , " stress management". As for the negative comments, I will be punished,I will place myself in a burlap bag , and have my peers beat me. [/qb]


ROTFLMAO!!
Don‘t worry son us old timers always get stick.   
I can call you son because I‘m 1yr 3 months and 1 day older    .
To all we where born when a Centurion was a Tank not a Rank.


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## Old Cent Hand

CHIMO !


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## Bill Smy

I wonder if this is enforceable. Section 116 of Part III of the National Defence Act states:-

"Every person who...

(c) sells, pawns or otherwise disposes of any cross, medal, insignia or other decoration granted by or with the approval of Her Majesty,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment."

To me it does not seem to specify that the medals, etc, need be the individual's own.

It would appear from the interpretation of persons subject to the Code of Military Discipline that this would apply to all regular force members at all times, and to reserve force members when:

Section 60 (1)

(c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is

(i) undergoing drill or training, whether in uniform or not,

(ii) in uniform,

(iii) on duty,

(iv) [Repealed, 1998, c. 35, s. 19]

(v) called out under Part VI in aid of the civil power,

(vi) called out on service,

(vii) placed on active service,

(viii) in or on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft of the Canadian Forces or in or on any defence establishment or work for defence,

(ix) serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, or

(x) present, whether in uniform or not, at any drill or training of a unit or other element of the Canadian Forces"

Just some thoughts and questions from a bored old man.   :boring:


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## Michael Dorosh

If you really want to help enshrine Mr. Trudeau's concept that private property does not exist under the Canadian Constitution, go for it.

And do the regulations specify what the desired disposition of a medal upon the termination of the awardee's life is?


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## Michael OLeary

The associated article in the Queen's Regulations and Orders, article 103.48 
(http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/qr_o/vol2/ch103_e.asp#103.48) has this specific example under Specimen Charges:



> Para. 116 (c) N.D.A.
> 
> SOLD A DECORATION GRANTED BY HER MAJESTY
> 
> Particulars: In that he, on (date), at (indicate place of offence), sold to (name and address), the George Cross *granted to him by Her Majesty*.



Also, I suspect if you sold someone else's, then a charge of theft would take precedence, if that were the case. But I rather doubt the interpretation is meant to exclude any member of the CF from dealing in medals as a collector.


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## jfladeroute

Michael OLeary said:
			
		

> Also, I suspect if you sold someone else's, then a charge of theft would take precedence, if that were the case. But I rather doubt the interpretation is meant to exclude any member of the CF from dealing in medals as a collector.



I always suspected it was meant to exclude serving soldiers from pawning their medals for beer money.  ;D


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## Infanteer

Like to see the charge stick; the press would have a field day....


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## Bill Smy

If you really want to help enshrine Mr. Trudeau's concept that private property does not exist under the Canadian Constitution, go for it.

Michael. Did I say this? Sometimes your responses appear to me to be arrogant and condescending!

And do the regulations specify what the desired disposition of a medal upon the termination of the awardee's life is?

No. But what does that have to do with the original question?


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## julia_gulia

Hi everyone, 

What are your opinions on selling war parafernelia and veterans medals and awards? I noticed there were some posted on ebay for 25$. Do you think this is ethical and do you really feel you can put a price on this?


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## Michael Dorosh

Yes it is ethical.

Yes, a price can be put on them.  Generally, it is a buyer's market, meaning a seller can charge whatever he thinks someone is willing to pay.


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## dutchie

I think it's really sad. I hate seeing medals for sale (war medals, I mean), especially if you consider that not all are being sold by third parties (ie-surplus store). I find it most sad when I hear of vets selling their medals so they can eat.

Mind you, if I was to see a CPSM for sale, somehow I wouldn't be bothered as much by that.


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## Michael OLeary

So, what would you like to see done with such medals? Sent to museums to sit in dusty back rooms (more often than not) because there's already one on display? Thrown away by families who have lost interest, or by the estate when the last descendant dies, which may well be the result without a 'market' that gives them 'value.' Collectors take care of these medals, they research them and they help to protect and share the heritage they represent. Many of these items, including many currently in museums, would not exist if there wasn't a prevailing interest in collecting them. 

And if a current CPSM, which may well have been awarded to a living soldier, doesn't bother you, what about a medal presented to someone long dead, who's family didn't bother to protect and save it?

There are enough comments on this board deploring the lack of interest and concern in our military and our military history by the public. Let's not denigrate a group that* is *interested and is willing to spend their own money to collect and protect the memoribilia of that heritage.


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## dutchie

Whoa! I didn't mean to strike such a nerve Michael.

I was thinking more of 2 scenarios:

1-vet sells medals to eat. It's not what happens to the medals that bothers me, it's the fact he couldn't afford to keep them. 

2-Either a vets family hawks them to a pawn shop thinking their worthless, or a vet has his home broken into, and the shitrat hawks them.

I wasn't clear enough, obviously.

I obviously don't have a problem wiht the legitimate aquisition of medals by museums or Regimental Associations, and I do appreciate the interest the public has in their nations heros. 

'nuff said.


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## beach_bum

When my Grandmother was in a hursing home she had a number of things stolen from her by the staff, which we didn't discover until she died.  Things like her jewelry (which really wasn't valuable, just sentimental) money....and my Grandfather's medals.  Nice huh?  Nothing you would fetch a large sum of money for, but things that meant something to the family.


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## Bill Smy

Veterans back MP's move to protect war medals

Canadian Press  Halifax â â€ It's been almost 60 years since Second World War veteran Reid Myers felt the heat of combat.

But his voice breaks with emotion when he tries to explain what the row of carefully polished war medals on his chest means to him.

â Å“I carry a lot of respect. . . . I know that I'll always remember my fallen comrades,â ? he said.

Mr. Myers, 82, of Fall River, N.S., was among 13 war veterans who turned out Wednesday to support Halifax-area MP Peter Stoffer's quest to make the sale of war decorations illegal.

Mr. Myers, who served in Europe with the 4th Armoured Division, said his medals mean more to him now than they did when he was younger.

â Å“It seems to affect you more later in life because you were too busy back then to think about it â â€ being young and vibrant,â ? he said.

Mr. Stoffer, a New Democrat, plans to introduce a private member's bill in the House of Commons in February to coincide with the Year of the Veteran.

He said the move was inspired by a recent public campaign to prevent the sale of a Victoria Cross to a British collector.

Canadians raised $300,000 to keep the medal at home.

Mr. Stoffer said preventing the sale of symbols is a matter of respect for veterans and their service to Canada.

â Å“The medals that the men and women wear are not currency,â ? he said at a news conference.

While private members' bills rarely succeed in becoming legislation, Mr. Stoffer said he's optimistic this one will gain the support of all MPs.

â Å“There's nothing wrong with the idea being taken by the government and have them run with it, which is something I would encourage,â ? he said.

George Atwood, 84, also a veteran of action overseas with the 4th Armoured Division, knows it's an uphill battle to get a new law in place.

â Å“Canadians are more aware than they were even six months ago, but I think it's still going to take a lot of education,â ? said Atwood, of Sackville, N.S.

Under current legislation, veterans are not permitted to sell their medals, but they can be sold by family members who inherit them.


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## Roger

It sounds like a good idea but what happens if people go underground to sell them, and then no one would know. The way we have it now at least we can stop medal sales by purchasing them.


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## 1feral1

I cherish my relitives medals which I jealously guard (from both WW1 and WW2), Even down to the German EKII's taken off PWs, sometime after D-Day. I will never sell them.

Personally, I think its in bad taste to sell such things, but in reality we cannot stop the sale of private property like medals and war souviners can we? However we can regulate the wearing of them, to stop posers and wannabees, but these blokes are all in their late 70's and 80s now, and should their families decide to sell/donate/give their medals after they have passed on, to another party, thats just how it is. 

Sometimes it ensures they go to a proper private collection, rather than to a dirty pawn shop. Not all museums etc will buy generic war medals, with the exception in certain cases. If I remember right WW2 campaign medals are un-named, as compared to WW1 and before, which are all named, so tracking the WW2 ones would be very difficult. Look at Canada's gun registry for example, and we all know the disaster that is.

I can genuinely understand the concern from these Veterans, and I have the highest respect for them at all times, no matter what their opinions are, after all they moulded our Canada and other countries from a war not so long ago, and its because of them, we are here today.

I do not believe this law will be passed, but I understsand the genuine concern for the Vets. 

My 2 cents.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Michael Dorosh

Surprised no one posted about this; much coverage in the papers and on CTV last night.  *EDIT by Moderator - this is the merge point; obviously this had been posted previously by Bill Smy but I missed it.  *

Here is the scoop, as I see it.

A little fish in the NDP was approached by some WW II veterans to ask about a bill to prohibit the sale of Canadian medals.

Now, the NDA does have a clause where serving members cannot sell their medals (a holdover from the days of guys selling kit for beer money, I suppose), but says nothing about veterans.  (The news seem to have gotten this wrong, saying that vets are prohibited from selling their medals; I don't see that as being the case).

The bill proposed by this NDP dude will prevent families from selling medals.

Why?

This NDPer went on TV with 13 veterans (all 80 years old it looked like) and tried to present this as a great service for the veterans.

Let's read between the lines here.  Topham's VC g0es up for grabs, and a public outcry tries to raise 300,000 to keep it in Canada.  They suceeded, but at some point the Government stepped in to pledge to top up the fund.  I believe it wasn't necessary in the end, but how would the NDP feel about that?

What happens next time there is a hue and cry about something like this?  Take 300,000 dollars and promote the military with it?  That's money they could spend on furthering their ideas of a social utopia!

Worse, the Topham family benefited directly from the sale - the money did not go into a trust fund, it went into the Topham family pockets!  What if government money had been used?

Solution:  ban the sale of medals outright!  End of problem.

My question is - how would the veterans benefit from such legislation?  They have the option to sell, or keep, their own medals.

What harm could come from this?

Plenty.

a) loss of freedom, for one, plus a slipperly slope where other types of militaria may be similarly "protected".  Want to buy a cap badge from your grandfather's regiment?  Might be against the law next.

b) if there are no outlets for "disposal" of medals when veterans die, simply may simply get pitched out by families unaware of what they represent or uninterested

c) giving away medals would still be protected, but to whom would you give them?  Museums have piles of 5-medal WW II racks (39-45 Star, Defence Medal, War Medal, CVSM, France-Germany Star).  Let's not forget the Canadian War Museum in fact LOST one of our Victoria Crosses.  Collectors care for medals just as well as museums; sometimes even more, as they will go and do the research on medal groups, get photos and documents - museums don't have the time to do what with all their medal groups

I can't see a single reason to ban the sale of medals, nor do I think this legislation would help veterans one single iota.  It seems to me to be a way to get the Government off the hook for future medal buying obligations forced on them by the public who want to see VCs and other important artifacts remain in Canadian hands.

Other opinions?


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## vangemeren

Possibly change it to only include racks (I don't know the proper term) that include certain medals such as the Victoria Cross.


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## Michael Dorosh

vangemeren said:
			
		

> Possibly change it to only include racks (I don't know the proper term) that include certain medals such as the Victoria Cross.



Why have a ban at all?


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## Bograt

Much a do about nothing. I am amazed at the speed these meaningless bills get developed and passed. 

It would be nice to see the NDP stand beside current members of the CF and demand better base housing. Alas, the veterans were merely a backdrop for a photo op and press release.


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## Infanteer

A ban on the sale of personal property is fundamentally wrong.

Typical NDP "diaper" politics; you don't know any better so big government will do it for you.

I hope Jack Layton comes to try and take my guns too.... :threat:


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## Armymedic

I agree that certain medals should not be for sale. The US has decreed that the Congressional Medal of Honour (CMH) can not be sold, why can we not have the same law here.

The gimme medals such as UN, NATO, and Service medals (CD, 125, Queen Jubilee) that there are hundreds of, can and should be traded for currency.

More prestigious medals like the VC, Star of Courage, Medal of Bravery, IMO should not.


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## Infanteer

Again, why not?  Should Ford Tempo's be permitted for sale at the auction, but Ferrari's restricted by the government?

These medals are the personal property of whoever is awarded them - why the government needs to tell them how they are to be able to with their personal effects is beyond me.  If I felt like throwing my two gongs in the garbage today, I don't see why it should be a matter of government legislation.


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## 48Highlander

Exactly.  The medals are awarded to individuals in reckognition of their performance.  They're not a loan, they're an award.  Saying that the government should have control over them cheapens the whole idea behind then.  It's like they're saying "yeah you did a wonderful job, so here you can hang on to this piece of metal for a while".


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## Michael Dorosh

Armymedic said:
			
		

> More prestigious medals like the VC, Star of Courage, Medal of Bravery, IMO should not.



Why?  As the other two posters have asked.


----------



## George Wallace

Having a little experience here, but not much, I'd like to point out that not many "Medal Recipients" have sold their medals for 'profit'.   A few, some of relative significance, have done so in hard times, but on a whole, most have not sold their medals and/or awards.   I have seen cases where the immediate family, the children of an Award Winner, have seen no value in keeping the medals or awards, but the Grand children have.   

I look on these medals and awards as being part of our nations history.   As Canada has signed an International Treaty on the protection of Cultural Property, I believe that we should be protecting these medals and awards and keeping them in Canada.   Should they be put up for sale, they should not be sold outside of Canada.

To me the sale of medals for profit just rubs me the wrong way, but I can see where Infanteer is coming from also.   In many cases, museums do not have the funding to give medals the attention that a few collectors may.   It is a tough call.

GW


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## Infanteer

If the Government of Canada wishes to make medals some form of cultural property, they should award themselves the Victoria Cross and put it on display for all to see....


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## Michael Dorosh

That's just it, George; since they are pieces of history, there are many people out there prepared to pay for them - and share them by displaying them proudly, researching the original owner, etc.  Better to do that than see them thrown out with old uniforms and bumph because an aging widow or slacker offspring don't know what they are.

Someone on another board I frequent got hysterical about how veterans were selling medals to pay for operations or some such nonsense.  Most medals wouldn't be worth grocery money for a week.  This is simply not an issue, as you rightly point out.


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## vangemeren

I just found another thread on this topic that was started yesterday here.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/24110.0.html


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## Michael Dorosh

Okay, I went ahead and merged the two topics - hope this doesn't cause confusion.  Really belongs in Current Affairs anyway, not History.


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## Armymedic

I believe that medals as such I mentioned, are part of a person's and the countries history and legacy. If I will my medals to my children or grandchildren, I do not want them to sell part of their families history to the highest bidder. 

By allowing them to sell an honour awarded due to bravery or valour, cheapens the value of that award in the eyes of the public.

What was once an act of bravery becomes just another piece of metal attached to cloth once it sold. I saw a news article today about a collector who researches the medals and attempts to keep the history of the honours he purchased alive at least in his archive. This I can respect. But its not the place for that....

Why can't the Canadian War Museum have a wall of honour where all Canadian VC winners and their medals be displayed?

Just my humble opinion. I for one, want to see good come of this.


----------



## 1feral1

Armymedic said:
			
		

> I
> Why can't the Canadian War Museum have a wall of honour where all Canadian VC winners and their medals be displayed?



Don't they have this already?

At the AWM in Canberra they have a whole area dedicated to VC 'winners' from the humble beginnings of this nation to Viet Nam. Very inpressive display I might add.

Try www.awm.gov.au

Regards,

Wes


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Armymedic said:
			
		

> I believe that medals as such I mentioned, are part of a person's and the countries history and legacy. If I will my medals to my children or grandchildren, I do not want them to sell part of their families history to the highest bidder.



But how do you know they will have any interest in them?  Odds are good they will want to dispose of them.  If they can't sell them, guess what that means - either a museum, where your run of the mill awards will just collect dust, or the dumpster.



> By allowing them to sell an honour awarded due to bravery or valour, cheapens the value of that award in the eyes of the public.



How so?  It's not like collectors wear these things to the mall; the serious collectors put them behind glass, with photos and personal documents to flesh out the history of the medal and its recipient.



> What was once an act of bravery becomes just another piece of metal attached to cloth once it sold.



See above.  Far from it; we are not talking about bravery medals, but ALL medals.  300 CDs sitting on a shelf in a museum are just that - ribbon and metal.  A CD behind glass in someone's home, with a picture and a name to put to it, bring it to life.  Museums cannot do that for every artifact they have donated to them - probably 10 percent of any museum's holdings ever see the light of day.



> I saw a news article today about a collector who researches the medals and attempts to keep the history of the honours he purchased alive at least in his archive. This I can respect. But its not the place for that....



This is exactly what we are talking about - who else would buy medals, if not a collector?



> Why can't the Canadian War Museum have a wall of honour where all Canadian VC winners and their medals be displayed?



Because all Canadian VCs are owned by different people; museums, private collections, even foreign collections.  There is no law stating the CWM has to receive the medal after the VC holder passes on.  One of those freedom thingies they sacrificed for in the first place, if you ask me.



> Just my humble opinion. I for one, want to see good come of this.



What possible good could it do?  I can't think of a single thing.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Much as I don't like the thought of the medals being sold I have to agree with Michael on this. Someone who puts out money to acquire the medal is more likely going to care for it than someone who, by law, must inherit it but in reality didn't even like Grampa and just wants the cash....everything else goes in that mouldy box in the basement.


----------



## GGboy

First of all, the Topham family had to sell his VC because his widow died intestate, meaning his medals (including the VC) weren't willed to anyone in particular. Since they couldn't split up the collection, they had to convert it into something they could divide, ie: money.
Much as I hate to give credit to the current government, they appear to be doing something sensible about the prospect of Canadian VCs (or other significant medals, such as those of John McRae which were auctioned off year before last). They're supposedly considering changing the cultural heritage regulations to make it nigh impossible to export such medals. The War Museum or Heritage Canada would be given the first right of refusal to buy such medals before they could be shipped out of the country.
A much more realistic solution it seems to me. Vets or relatives could still sell medals if need be, even VCs, but they couldn't sell them outside Canada without government approval.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

GGboy said:
			
		

> First of all, the Topham family had to sell his VC because his widow died intestate, meaning his medals (including the VC) weren't willed to anyone in particular. Since they couldn't split up the collection, they had to convert it into something they could divide, ie: money.



Well, they could have just donated the medals to the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion Association, too.  But I guess getting donations from across Canada to pocket was just as good...I will admit 300,000 dollars is a lot of money, even when split (how many ways), but I can see where the NDP (or anyone) would be horrified at paying out to private individuals in such a case.  Banning sales is not the answer, unfortunately.  I'd rather see the medals leave Canada than see family members of intestate widows blackmailing taxpayers.


----------



## 48Highlander

It's not exactly blackmail.  They had an offer for $300,000 from an overseas investor but agreed to let it go for $275,000 if the funds could be raised within Canada.  If they really wanted to blackmail the government they could have waited untill the $275,000 was raised, and then started a bidding war between the government and the foreign investor.


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## XHighlander

i have five generations of medals.......... spanning 88 years of service to this nation (1916-2002) and i will be dammed if they are ever to be sold for profit.......... they are family history......... not a bargaining chip to be held for ransom to the highest bidder.... if my nest of kin does not want them then they are to be given to the respective regiments for use in their museums.


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## Infanteer

...and that is completely within your right to do so.

Wouldn't we consider it unfair if the law was the opposite and all medals became property of the government once their owner was deceased - preventing you from inheriting an important part of your heritage?

Private property is an important privilege that we've gone to war to protect.  It's not surprising that the NDP would run it asunder.....


----------



## Recce41

I agree with the Ban. But it should be fore external sales only. I collect Militaria, and would not sell for profit. Medals such as VCs should go to the War Museum. I would even go as far as a tax brake, for a true collector. I have friends that have complete Regts medals. I have my fathers and been give a number of uniforms. Some that are worth a couple of thousand. But will not part with.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Recce41 said:
			
		

> I agree with the Ban. But it should be fore external sales only. I collect Militaria, and would not sell for profit. Medals such as VCs should go to the War Museum. I would even go as far as a tax brake, for a true collector. I have friends that have complete Regts medals. I have my fathers and been give a number of uniforms. Some that are worth a couple of thousand. But will not part with.



The same War Museum that lost Konowal's VC?  

So they can sit on a shelf collecting dust?


----------



## Long in the tooth

Now that these threads have merged, I'll remake a point that didn't make the transfer.

When these medals were awarded they were not meant to be transferable and certainly not to become a treasure trove to the winner's survivors.  I had thought that there were legal prohibitions against the original recipient selling decorations, all of them from the VC to CD.  I couldn't find any reference but perhaps looked in the wrong locations.

If the original member was prohibited, then it is no leap to infer that any monetary transfer by anyone should be illegal as well.

So perhaps there's some merit to the NDP's proposed legislation....


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> Now that these threads have merged, I'll remake a point that didn't make the transfer.
> 
> When these medals were awarded they were not meant to be transferable and certainly not to become a treasure trove to the winner's survivors.  I had thought that there were legal prohibitions against the original recipient selling decorations, all of them from the VC to CD.  I couldn't find any reference but perhaps looked in the wrong locations.
> 
> If the original member was prohibited, then it is no leap to infer that any monetary transfer by anyone should be illegal as well.
> 
> So perhaps there's some merit to the NDP's proposed legislation....



The only legislation is the NDA; and it only applies to serving members.

*
116. Every person who:

(c) sells, pawns or otherwise disposes of any cross, medal, insignia or other decoration granted by or with the approval of Her Majesty,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to imprisonment for less than two years or to less punishment.*

Source/link: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/n-5/84849.html


----------



## Infanteer

I think too many of you are letting emotion get in the way of common sense.

You value your medals and treat them accordingly, but this doesn't mean that everybody must also view these little pieces of ribbon and metal with the same veneration.   It is the private property of whoever is awarded it - so why must we insist on hammering people with legislation on how they shall dispense with what they earned?  What happens if the guy didn't like the things and just chucked them in the garbage (or lost them)?  Would you put him in the brig for "destroying Canadian heritage and culture"?  Sheila Copps would love to have you on her team.

Should we put legislation on what I can do with my Grade 11 honor roll certificate as well?   Unless the government decides to start issuing medals and having a soldier sign is MMM out from the QM, people (and the NDP) should back off and mind their own business.

If it really bothers you, give your medals to a museum - then you can have the satisfaction that Canadian "heritage" has somehow been preserved....


----------



## George Wallace

Infanteer

You are trivializing the matter a bit too much.

What part of history I may have played with my CD1 may in fact be insignificant in the whole of the Nations' history, however, should I have been a VC winner, then the significance of my contributions to the Nations' history would be all that more important to preserve.  There is a graduated scale by which we must look at this matter.  Some will naturally have more precedence over the majority of other more common awards.  

Medals or Awards presented for some significant act in our history should be of National importance and pride and preserved as such.  They transend the 'Family' historical value and become more of a 'National treasure' in a way.

It is a bit of an "old guy thing' to start to worry about our history, as the young seem to think more about themselves and not worry too much of the changes they want to inflict on the world.   

GW


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## Michael Dorosh

Infanteer made the Honour Roll?  ???

The poor dear has been waiting 5 years to brag about that on this board; I admire his restraint...only 3600 posts first...  ;D


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## Michael OLeary

If the sale and trade of any medals are restricted in Canada, that law will only be effective in Canada. As Mike D. notes, many medals wll then end up sitting in dusty back rooms of museums across the country abd be forgotten because of the lack of resources and space to research and display them. Others, perhaps too many others, will then leave the country by whatever means to places where there are still collectors that assign them monetary value, collectors who wil not be bound by Canadian law. The ones that go will be those that any such legistaltion will be aimed at keeping in place. 

How then, would the proponents of such a scheme to limit the sale of medals control this? Shall we register them as was done with firearms? 

I suspect the number of medals that were sold by vets to pay for medicine, etc., is very small. Many others that circulate, divorced from the documents that would provcide them a place, time and serviceman's name in our collective history, would not be out there if the average Canadian had felt any sentimental value attributed to them because of Dad's or Granddad's service.

It is sad that the history of so many of these medals has been lost. It would be even sadder of the collecting community had not preserved the many medals that it has, and continued to do the research to bring more of them, and their associated history to light. 

Banning trade in medals or other militaria would weaken the collective understanding of our history, not strengthen it. If Parliament wants to support the memory of Canadian veterans and their collective sacrifice, better a motion to aid and support the return of medals to Canadian soil, for example; making the importation of Canadian medals exempt from import duties. Assisting the repatriation of medals is a far stronger statement of commitment to their memory than invoking legislation that will drive the collecting markets underground.


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## Michael Dorosh

Importing Canadian goods is already exempt from duties, is it not?   I believe uniform collectors have discussed this at my board before.  if you are repatriating Canadian uniforms, for example, there should be no import fees, if you can demonstrate they were made in Canada.


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## the 48th regulator

Is there a website or info board where I can check out private collectors and thier displays.  I would like to  check out the items since they maintian them better than our museums.

cheers
tess


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## Walt

Many valid points have been presented in this thread, both pro & con. Consider this issue from another perspective.

The fate of a veteran's medals should remain their personal decision. I have had the pleasure to know many vets over the years, some of whom were family members. Sadly, all have sinced passed on. For some, it was their wish to have their medals burried with them. For others, their medals were willed to an individual or organization. One sold his to a jeweller, because in a difficult financial situation, the monetary value of the silver was more valuable to him than having the medals stuffed away in a shoe box. Another veteran even refused to accept his medals upon returning to Canada after WWII. He was so horrifed by what he had witnessed to the extent that he wanted no reminder. Four very different choices. Nevertheless, they had the freedom for which they fought to make their own personal decisions.   

Walt


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## Long in the tooth

I have four humble gonges, 11 from my father and father in law. 6 from my grandfather.   These are not ones that should be for sale.


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## Michael Dorosh

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> I have four humble gonges, 11 from my father and father in law. 6 from my grandfather.  These are not ones that should be for sale.



So don't sell them.  Problem solved.... ???


----------



## STONEY

Why is it necessary to ridicule the NDP member and call it idiocy because he and some vets believe strongly about something ,they too have a right to opinions on the subject. I value their opinion more than some others.  A lot of you would probably have argued against seat belt legislation because it infringed on your right of choice, despite having been proven over and over to save countless lives. Sometimes the GOV. has a duty to save the masses from themselves. I've no love for the NDP but maybe Peter Stouffer just believes strongly on the subject , you probably know nothing of him or his family history. Everyone has a opinion pro, con or ambivilant but its no reason to call them idiots.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

STONEY said:
			
		

> Why is it necessary to ridicule the NDP member and call it idiocy because he and some vets believe strongly about something ,they too have a right to opinions on the subject. I value their opinion more than some others.  A lot of you would probably have argued against seat belt legislation because it infringed on your right of choice, despite having been proven over and over to save countless lives. Sometimes the GOV. has a duty to save the masses from themselves. I've no love for the NDP but maybe Peter Stouffer just believes strongly on the subject , you probably know nothing of him or his family history. Everyone has a opinion pro, con or ambivilant but its no reason to call them idiots.



Can we call you an idiot instead?

Name one single way in which a veteran would be benefitted by this bill, should it become law.  It's not about the veterans, it's about the NDP skiving from having to put up money in the future for Canadian medals.


----------



## Infanteer

STONEY said:
			
		

> I've no love for the NDP but maybe Peter Stouffer just believes strongly on the subject , you probably know nothing of him or his family history. Everyone has a opinion pro, con or ambivilant but its no reason to call them idiots.



I've met him on multiple occasions.  Although he has a real interest in the Canadian Forces, his knowledge is next to zero.  I remember listening to him explain why we should ban pistols and semi-automatic weapons from Canada - so you can guess how seriously I took him from there.


----------



## Ghost

The NDP is retarded

If you really care so much about medals then friggin cough up the money to buy them off the people who are selling them and take care of them yourself.

If somebody wants to keep them than they will,  if they don't want them then they can do what ever they like with them,  why can they do that you ask?  Because the medal belongs to the person who owns it not the NDP.

I hope that if I win a war medal its nice and pointy so it will really hurt the person who tells me what I and can't do with it when I shove it up their ass.


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## Michael Dorosh

I see another MP is planning a private member's bill which will soften this considerably, instead giving the Canadian government the right of first refusal on any medal sales including a Canadian Victoria Cross.  A much better compromise, I think.


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## Highland Lad

To all those of you who have issues with what to do with your medals, or medals you currently have custody of, my response is simple: *Leave a will*, so that everyone knows what is to be done.

As was pointed out above, in this specific case, the widow died intestate (had no will), and the family could not agree amongst themselves as to the correct action to be taken. IMHO, any legislation about restrictions, first refusals, or whatnot, would have to include some caveat stating that, _*in the absence of clear instructions to the contrary*_, the federal government or its institutions should have first refusal on any sale of medals or historical militaria (perhaps followed by the relevant regimental organizations/museums).

Cheers.


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## kellywmj

Considering what it takes to be awarded a VC, or any similar award of valour, who the f&!# has ANY right to tell that vet what he can or can't do with it!


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## Bruce Monkhouse

That vet is dead and if he had left a will, his wishes would have been respected.  But, he did not, therefore......


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## Cloud Cover

The sale of the medals does not erase the history that went into the awarding of the honour.The medal is private property, the history is public knowledge and it seems to me that should properly satisfy the principal participants: the public, historians and the recipient. 

I agree with Michael re the NDP's goals on this matter. 

Incidentally, it is not impossible for a Canadian court to have Canadian law enforced in a foreign jurisdiction, this happens frequently in commercial disputes. In addition,we also permit foreign courts to interpret, apply and enforce Canadian law for certain disputes which might not have even taken place in Canada, for example illegal trading in war medals contrary to Canadian law. A person who sells a medal to a foreigner could draw up a simple contract stating the contract is governed by the laws of Canada, or even the laws of the Province of Ontario, Alberta or B.C.


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## 1feral1

Medals are infact personal private property, and if any government want to toy with DICTATING or governing what you own, and what you can do with it, thats going towards 'Stalinism' as far as I am concerned. 

Look at the gun laws for example, and we all know what a disaster that is.

My '2 Bob'

Beers,

Wes


----------



## dutchie

I used to be very much against the sale of medals, primarily due to a misguided belief that a lot of callous children/grandchildren of vets sell off the valour medals of their Grandfathers when they either die or when they become infirm.

I now have a completely different opinion - they are private and personal property. Those men earned (not won) those medals, and if they choose to sell them, or allow their children etc to sell them, so be it. If their kids see no value in them (as they obviously should), forcing them to keep them will not change that. In fact, in that case, I would rather they be sold to someone (or some organization) that DOES see value in them.

Either way, it's none of my bees-wax (nor the Govt's) what hthe Vet or his family does with them.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Caesar said:
			
		

> Those men earned (not won) those medals, and if they choose to sell them, or allow their children etc to sell them, so be it.



Some medals were "won", however (just to pick flyshit from pepper for a second); periodic awards (as opposed to immediate awards) were sometimes pulled out of a hat in cases where many men participated in an action and it was decided that only a fraction of them would be entitled to an award.   In such cases, the recipient could count on luck as much as individual bravery.   We really didn't have a fool-proof system for giving out awards in Canada (I doubt one is possible), though the Germans in WW II, for example, were much more generous with not only giving out awards, but also meaningful ones.   

Whereas some American awards are for marksmanship, completing basic training, and other service-oriented awards (we did the same thing, to a lesser degree, with the 39-43 (later 45) Star and CVSM), the Germans tended to reward combat skills and experiences - a badge for participating in three infantry assaults, tank battles, or general engagements; another badge for singlehanded destruction of an enemy AFV, another for wounds received in action, plus three basic grades of the Iron Cross (about 1 in 4 German soldiers had the II Class award by the end of the War - some vets simply say "everyone got one") which you couldn't be awarded without the lower class already being in your possession (though concurrent awards were possible in rare cases).

Guy Simonds - Corps Commander and fill-in Army Commander in WW II - was of the opinion that campaign medals "would suffice" and that other awards were unnecessary.   I think a system somewhere in between the German and the Canadian system would be in order; the Americans may have actually gotten it right.   Certainly the Combat Infantry Badge is an elegant design and means more to many veterans than any of their ribbons.

For the most part, though, you are correct that there are no "winners" - I always make a point of saying Victoria Cross holder or Victoria Cross recipient.   They didn't "win" anything.

There are, just for interests' sake, one or two MMs and MiDs that were drawn by lots as mentioned above. 

Oh, I have nothing against service awards, incidentally - the Germans had a medal for being in 4 years, and another for 12; I am quite proud of my CD.   The CPSM was a bit silly, but good intentioned (I call it the medal you get for getting a medal) and fits in well with the series of CVSM and the service medal for Korea.   I think it too bad, though, that we were so stingy with medals in WW II (I have a list of VC nominees on my site that would have done the medal proud) and never really designed any kind of meaningful recognition of combat service.   Staff clerks at Army Headquarters got the exact same 5 ribbon bar that the frontline infantrymen got.

Another reason that museums have so many redundant medals; everyone got the same thing.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Angry hero's war medals go on block

By TU THANH HA

MONTREAL -- Dollard Ménard was once the country's most famous French-speaking soldier, lionized as a hero after he continued to direct his men despite being wounded five times during the bloody 1942 raid on Dieppe.

Now, eight years after Brigadier-General Ménard's death, his youngest son is auctioning off his father's medals, saying he is frustrated with his attempts to sell them to federal and provincial officials.

The medals and other possessions go on the block at Empire Auctions in Montreal Jan 23-27.

Brig.-Gen. Ménard held, among other awards, the Distinguished Service Order, the French Legion of Honour and the United Nations Bronze Medal for Peacekeeping.

He was only 29 at Dieppe, but "those boys would follow Colonel Ménard to Hell if he told them to," one of his men said after the raid.

But his later years were marred by quarrels after he said he would vote Yes in the 1980 referendum.

He wasn't a separatist but wanted Quebec to have more bargaining power.

Other generals mocked him, with one even suggesting that his mind had been clouded by his war injuries. He sued them for libel, then settled out of court. In 1992, he wasn't invited to the 50th anniversary of the Dieppe raid, telling his family that he was snubbed because of his politics.

He died in 1997 at age 83.

Storage of the soldier's belongings costs hundreds of dollars a month, said his son, Charles Ménard, who is the executor of the estate. "In the end, I had no choice."

Mr. Ménard said he first approached the Canadian War Museum four years ago. Discussions lasted several months.

The museum gives tax credits, but "we typically don't buy artifacts. We don't have the budget for that," museum director Joe Geurts said.

Also, Mr. Geurts said, the museum was reluctant to accept the entire collection. It ranges from flintlock muskets to a carved head Brig-Gen. Ménard found at the Khyber Pass while with the Army of India.

"Our family can't live on a tax credit," Mr. Ménard said, adding that he had a mandate to liquidate the estate.

He said federal officials are being stingy toward the estate of a war hero who raised millions of dollars in a war bonds drive. "I'm not after political gains or other gains."

He was celebrated in front-page newspaper articles and his heroics were used to promote the war effort, especially since Quebec opposed conscription.

News of the auction shocked retired Lieutenant-Colonel Gilles Bissonnette, curator of the Fusiliers Mont-Royal museum, Brig.-Gen Ménard's Dieppe unit. 

"This makes no sense. It should be kept in our patrimony," he said. "He's got medals that not too many people have."

The museum should try to purchase the medals, said Cliff Chadderton, chairman of the National Council of Veteran Associations. "This is what I'd call a slap to the faces of French-speaking soldiers who were at Dieppe."

A DSO fetches anywhere from $2,500 to $3,000 but is worth more when sold with other medals, said Stu Christie, curator of the War Amputees Museum.

After talks with the War Museum came to a dead end, Mr. Ménard turned to Parti Québécois Leader Bernard Landry in 2002.

Mr. Landry, who was then premier, thought that the province's Culture Department might acquire some items, his press secretary, Annick Bélanger, said.

A spokeswoman said the department looked at the file and referred Mr. Ménard to a federal military museum in Quebec City.

Mr. Ménard said his dealings with officials became too much of a struggle. 

He said he hoped the eventual buyer "will finally lay to rest my father's soul by putting the medals on a Canadian flag."

His misgivings date from his father's referendum views. After the general's death, Mr. Ménard said, the military insisted on organizing the funerals, but wouldn't honour his father's wish to have his coffin draped with the flags of Canada, Quebec and the United Nations.

Empire Auctions president Abraham Rogozinsky said: "Anything military like this will generate interest across Canada. It's not like you're selling a batch of medals of nobody of importance."

The DSO ranks just below the Victoria Cross, the Commonwealth's top award for bravery. Two Canadians earned VCs at Dieppe but were both captured.

Brig.-Gen. Ménard, who was a lieutenant-colonel, evaded capture. He later said that his experiences at Dieppe affected him so much that he shunned barbecues because he couldn't stand the smell of burning flesh.


----------



## George Wallace

Now this line really rubbed me the wrong way:



> "Our family can't live on a tax credit," Mr. Ménard said, adding that he had a mandate to liquidate the estate.



Most Museums operate this way.  They do not have millions of dollars to purchase artifacts.  They issue Tax Receipts whereby the donors can claim it towards their taxes at 'Tax Time'.  This makes Mr Ménard look like a money grabbing opportunist.

I also find it interesting that it is costing him $100 a month to store these artifacts.  Doesn't the family have any higher respect and value for these artifacts than to put them away in a commercial storage facility?

GW


----------



## Infanteer

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I think a system somewhere in between the German and the Canadian system would be in order; the Americans may have actually gotten it right.   Certainly the Combat Infantry Badge is an elegant design and means more to many veterans than any of their ribbons.



I am in agreement here with you Michael.  Van Crevald had an interesting point on the same topic in his book Fighting Power in that there was an award system that rewarded consistent and repeated acts of independent leadership under fire.  While the award wasn't intended to reward soldiers for doing their job, it was seen as something that recognized stellar performance under fire.  It was something different then our own system which intends to recognize extreme acts of courage in the face of danger.


----------



## Bill Smy

Another story on sale of medals:-

 CNews 12 January 2005

*WWII hero's medals go on auction block*

By LES PERREAUX
  
QUEBEC (CP) - Foreign bidders are expected to line up for a chance to buy the medals of a Canadian hero from the Second World War who became a controversial figure in the Quebec sovereignty debate. 

The family of Dollard Menard will auction off a dozen of his decorations at the end of the month after abandoning hope of getting a decent price for them - and a truckload of other memorabilia - from federal or Quebec museums. 

Menard, a young senior army officer from Quebec, was wounded five times during the disastrous Dieppe Raid in 1942 but carried on leading his troops. 

The war-time hero sparked controversy later in life. He was mocked by fellow former army generals when he said he would vote for Quebec sovereignty in the 1980 referendum to boost the province's bargaining power. Some hurtfully suggested his war wounds affected his judgment. 

"Was he separatist? I never heard it," said Cliff Chadderton, chairman of the National Council of Veteran Associations, who served with Menard. 

"He did say the Canadian government failed to recognize what French-Canadian troops did. If that's separatism, I've got it all wrong." 

Chadderton noted a Canadian flag hung prominently in Menard's office when he was a general at a base near Shilo, Man. 

Menard's medals are expected to draw up to $20,000 from private bidders. 

"These medals will most likely end up in England or in the United States," said Abraham Rogozinsky, the head of Empire Auctions, the house that will handle the sale Jan. 23-27 in Montreal. 

"If they were French or American or British, they'd be priceless. But Canada treats its heroes a little differently than most countries in the world. And it's sure a shame." 

The Canadian War Museum negotiated with Menard's son, Charles Menard, for several years but could not reach an agreement. The museum does not have a budget to pay cash for acquisitions, though it does offer tax receipts. 

They also could not agree on what to do with hundreds of other items collected by Menard during his military career. 

The museum automatically accepts and preserves the service medals of any Canadian soldier, according to Joe Geurts, director of the museum. 

"We serve as the repository for many thousands of medals, but that doesn't mean we buy them," Geurts said. 

Menard's medals are not the first decorations of high-profile Canadian war heroes to face the uncertainty of sale. 

Most recently, a British collector tried to buy the Victoria Cross paratrooper Cpl. Fred Topham received near the end of the Second World War. 

Decorations awarded to John McCrae, author of In Flanders Field, were auctioned off in 1997. The medals of Sgt. Tommy Prince, one of Canada's most decorated soldiers, were sold in an auction in 2001. Fredrick Banting's Memorial Cross was sold in 2003. 

In each case Canadians rallied to come up with thousands of dollars to buy the medals and hand them over to Canadian museums. Almost $1 million was spent in the combined efforts. 

Export rules would prevent the medals from immediately leaving the country and Geurts said he believes a movement to buy them might take place if they go to a foreign bidder. 

"My guess is some forces would come together to probably raise the money to keep them here," Geurts said. 

"I think if citizens of the country come together and everybody including school children gets together and does this, I think it's a good thing. There is adequate protection in our policy framework to protect items of Canadian national significance." 

Menard was promoted at age 29 to become one of the youngest lieutenant-colonels in the history of the British Empire in 1939. 

After he was wounded and returned to Canada, Menard toured the country raising funds for the war effort. He was a hero in Quebec. Posters were printed in French bragging Menard embodied "what it takes to win." A street is named after him in Dieppe, France. 

"He was the bravest of the brave and his troops would follow him anywhere," said Chadderton. 

Menard died in 1993 at 83. His medals included the Distinguished Service Order and the French Legion of Honour, but he always felt the Canadian government robbed him of a Victoria Cross, according to Chadderton. 

"And he was right, there is no doubt about it," Chadderton said. "It was a real insult, a slap in the face." 

The cross, the highest military honour available to Canadian troops for acts of bravery, was awarded to two English-speaking soldiers for the Dieppe battle.


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## 2 Cdo

The bottom line is that the medals were awarded to the recipients, not loaned to them!
The idea that I or my family cannot sell MY personal possessions is ridiculous. The idea that a member of parliament even forwarded that idea shocked me! Are we still a democratic country or are we sliding down the path to a totalitarian state(like the old USSR). 
If I choose to sell my medals that is my choice, not the governments! :threat:


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## George Wallace

This topic was started by Bill Smy and is seven pages long already which you can find in the POLITICAL BOARD.


----------



## Michael OLeary

More on Brigadier-General Menard's  medals from the Globe and Mail:

GLOBE AND MAIL 
DATE: 2005.01.14 

Family split over sale of medals Relatives up in arms as youngest son of
Dieppe hero plans to auction father's wartime artifacts 

TU THANH HA MONTREAL 

Descendants of Dieppe war hero Dollard Menard are
furious with his youngest son's plans to sell his father's medals and are
trying to find ways to stop the coming auction. 
Brigadier-General Menard's possessions will be put on the block in Montreal,
starting Jan. 23, at the behest of Charles Menard, 52, who is the executor
of his father's will. 
The prospect of the general's medals, especially the Distinguished Service
Order he earned for bravery at Dieppe, ending up in the hands of a foreign
collector has upset other relatives and veterans groups. 
"He's never discussed this with the family and under no circumstances would
we agree to this," Marie Carrigan, a granddaughter, said. 
But Charles said yesterday he is confident a wealthy benefactor will
purchase the medals and donate them to a museum in return for a tax credit. 
The general's other children say they weren't consulted about the auction
and are trying to talk their brother out of selling the medals and other
items. 
"The rest of the family is quite upset," the eldest son, Jacques Menard, 63,
said. 
He said the rest of the family is scrambling to find a lawyer in Quebec in
an effort to obtain a court injunction. 
However, Charles said, the medals were directly willed to him so that his
relatives' legal recourses would be limited. 
Charles lived with his father in his later years, when controversy
surrounded the general after he voted Yes in the 1980 referendum to give
Quebec more negotiating powers. 
The ensuing acrimony marked the youngest son, who said the sale of the
medals is a way to indict federal officials for failing to tend properly to
his father's legacy. He wanted to sell the medals to the Canadian War
Museum, but it would offer only a tax credit. 
Brig.-Gen. Menard died in 1997. His wife, Charlotte Joncas, died in 2002.
While Charles is the estate's executor, the will stipulates that he must
consult the other relatives, Jacques said. 
He urged his brother to donate the medals to Kingston's Royal Military
College, from which their father graduated in 1936. 
Charles said the medals are a key part of the auction, enhancing the value
of the other artifacts. 
He said he was weary of tending to his father's belongings and said his
other relatives had contributed little to that duty. 
"We didn't even know he was negotiating in the first place to place the
medals somewhere," Jacques said. 
With the other siblings living in British Columbia, Ontario and Spain,
Charles is the only one of the general's children still residing in Quebec.
Contacts among him and other relatives have been infrequent, they said. 
"He must consult and he has not done that. Instead, we find out through
other parties that our heritage is up for sale," Jacques said. 
"If my grandfather was alive, he'd be horrified," Ms. Carrigan said. 
The scheduled auction will go ahead as planned, Empire Auctions president
Abraham Rogozinsky said, because Charles is the rightful executor of the
estate. 
He said he had obtained a legal opinion that "the person who gave Empire
this consignment is the person who has the right to do it." The DSO sits
just one rung below the Victoria Cross, the Commonwealth's most coveted
award for bravery. 
Brig.-Gen. Menard earned his DSO at Dieppe, where he was a 29-year-old
lieutenant-colonel, one of the youngest commanding officers in the Canadian
army. 
Despite being wounded five times during the bloody 1942 raid, he kept
directing his infantry unit, the Fusiliers Mont-Royal. 
Other medals he earned include the French Legion of Honour and the United
Nations Bronze Medal for Peacekeeping.


----------



## George Wallace

An update on Menard story; an editorial by Peter Worthington:

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Peter_Worthington/2005/01/16/900597.html



> Mon, January 17, 2005
> 
> DSO is far from a VC
> 
> By Peter Worthington
> 
> Another set of WWII medals is up for auction.
> 
> These ones are in Quebec, and include a Distinguished Service Order (DSO) and French Legion of Honour won by the late Brig.-Gen. Dollard Menard when he was a lieutenant colonel and commanded the Fusiliers Mont Royal at Dieppe in WWII.
> 
> Some have wondered if the Sun is interested in raising money for them. This question was clearly inspired by the Sun's campaign to help the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion Association raise over $300,000 to prevent the Victoria Cross won by paratrooper Fred Topham from being auctioned in Britain.
> 
> Is the Sun concerned? The short answer is "No."
> 
> Noteworthy
> 
> Brig. Gen. Menard's medals, although noteworthy, don't meet the criteria of "rare" or significant to our heritage.
> 
> As executor of his father's estate, Charles Menard, is anxious to sell the medals, apparently over the objections of other members of the family.
> 
> The National War Museum offered a tax deduction for them, but has insufficient cash to bid. Charles Menard wants greenbacks, not tax credits.
> 
> Some have noted that the DSO is "one rung" below the VC in prestige. Nonsense. It ranks next to the VC as an award, yes, but it's a distant second -- maybe 100 rungs below the VC in esteem. Make that 1,000 rungs below.
> 
> For example, 94 Canadians have won the VC in over 150 years; 1,220 Canadians have won the DSO in its 120 years of existence. No Canadian has won the VC twice (only three of 1,354 VC recipients have a VC and bar), while 119 Canadians have a bar to the DSO, and 20 Canadians have two bars. (Col. Jim Stone of the PPCLI was the last triple-DSO winner at the battle of Kapyong in Korea, 1951).
> 
> At Dieppe, Col. Menard was wounded several times, and was one of several commanding officers who got the DSO in that action.
> 
> In fact, the DSO is generally regarded as an award to commanding officers whose units perform well. If one is awarded to a junior officer it means he was likely recommended for a VC.
> 
> One never knows
> 
> It is doubtful that Menard's medals will attract $20,000, but one never knows at auctions.
> 
> What makes most sense for disposing of these medals yet keeping them in Canada -- assuming money is the goal of Menard's son -- is to sell them to the regimental museum of the Fusiliers Mont Royal, presuming they have one.
> 
> Newfoundland MP Peter Stoffer (NDP) has talked about sponsoring a Private Member's Bill to forbid the sale of war medals, because it is selling part of our heritage.
> 
> While one can sympathize with Stoffer's desire to keep such symbols in Canada, it is difficult to see how such sales can be forbidden.
> 
> When a soldier (or sailor, or airman) is awarded medals, either for valour or service, surely they are his, and if he or his relatives want to dispose of them, that is their right.
> 
> Defeated U.S. presidential contender John Kerry once pretended to throw his medals away in a symbolic gesture of disgust at his country -- a Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts.
> 
> It was a fake gesture. The medals are now mounted in a frame in his office, but throwing them away was his right. He earned them fighting for his country in a war that was about freedom of choice.
> 
> That also applies to Canada. While we deplore the selling of valuable medals, the law should not be imposed to prevent it.
> 
> Menard's DSO means something, but so many commanding officers in WWII got it, it isn't worth much.
> 
> For what it's worth, every Canadian commanding officer except one in the Korean War emerged with a DSO. It was harder for a CO not to get a DSO than it was to win one.


----------



## COBRA-6

I think the worst thing about this issue is that many Canadians have almost no interest or knowledge in our military history to begin with, but would be quick to support a warm and fuzzy idea such as banning the sale of decorations. Collectors on the other hand, are genuinely interested and vastly knowledgeable in our fighting heritage, and actively take steps to preserve it. I know many who could teach university history classes if given the chance. So many artifacts and items of significance would have been lost if it weren't for the efforts of these people. They spend years doing research, aquiring individual pieces, assembling collections and even publishing books. Removing the monetary value from these decorations would only ensure that most ended up in the garbage or attic instead of in a collection or museum. Unfortunately the War Museum does not have the resources to buy every piece that comes up for sale, but that is reality. Don't forget that in many instances they keep their efforts secret to avoid inflating the price, especialy the high-profile cases, something the papers don't consider in their articles... 

Cheers!


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## the 48th regulator

One thing that I have realized, is that although we beat up the civvies for "not recognizing the military"  there was quite a bit of enthusiasm for the saving, if you will, of  Cpl. Fred Topham's gongs.

Ya, a collector's  passion, matched with his knowledge, helps to preserve our history.  But, maybe  the intentions of some politicians aren't that far off either.  Hey I am a big fan of bashing any good week kneed PONTI willing to ride on the coattails of all this, but at least it is firing up the recognition from our public that has remained dormant for so long.

dunno, I should just stop having a pint at dinner, then settling down to log on here....

tess


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## Gizmoboy

Canadian Armed Forces Military Medal Set,
Certificate of Service, and Ribbon Set Included !!
9 pieces !!
MINT CONDITION !!

NATO Special Service Medal - United Nations Peacekeeper - United Nations Cyprus - Commemorative Decoration
** Complete with framed Certificate of Service and Ribbons
**I am selling my medals just to survive while Canadian Veteran Affairs plays the part of insurance adjuster, and takes 2+ years to review disability claim, while I go broke & hungry.
***Please accept this as my negative statement on how Canadian Veterans sometimes were/are, and are going to be Mal Treated in Canada.

**Not all, but many are being allowed to fall through the cracks. Particularly those with no families to cry out in anger for them.
**It has to do with Liberal Party budget restraint, and Liberal Party distaste for the Distinguished Canadian Armed Forces, its Non Commissioned Members, and their Families.

Background....

My entire family was injured while I served NATO and the CAF in Germany in 1989, and we have been neglected, mistreated, mismanaged, and ignored, all while suffering the effects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and other physical injuries from a terrible motor vehicle accident on the autobahn in Germany; that cost my mother her life, and me my family, as I knew it. I was driving my mother, wife, and little 6 year old daughter to our base from Brussels airport, to visit us for Christmas . Now, if it hadn't been for my service, I wouldn't have been there in Germany, or on the world's fastest super-highway, and my mother and my family could have had Christmas at home, safely in Canada. My family has paid a dear price for this country â Å“Canadaâ ? and NATO. Families aren't supposed to have to pay the price. I've asked for help for us many times, just to be forgotten and never receive any help as individuals or as a family unit, whatsoever. PRO PATRIA.
Be sure to add me to your favorites list!

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On 14-Feb-05 at 13:23:55 EST, seller added the following information: 

If wouldn't mind, please fwd this link to your address book in order to raise public and political awareness for myself, my family, and my comrades. Thank you and God Bless You All for taking the time for my precious family and I.

Cpl(Ret) Marc W MacLean CD

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On 15-Feb-05 at 23:26:14 EST, seller added the following information: 

A Bit More Background......

My family has been serving Canada almost concurrently since WWI, almost a century now, as Infantryman, Artilleryman, Technicians, Medics, and Sailors. 
My Grandfather Cpl Kenneth MacLean was a Military Medal holder for dragging a mortally wounded comrade to safety while under heavy enemy fire on the Somme. He was also the victim of mustard gas that day. My Grandfather suffered and his family and future generations would suffer for only ever having returned to us a shell of a man. It sure was our loss as well as Grampy's. 

Most of his sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters, served all over, from Korea to the Congo, Cyprus, and The Former Yugoslavia and area. Everyone of us served with distinction and were released or retired honorably. We have a coffin full of medals between us.
We also have an extra ordinary burden to carry, with many ghosts. As a family with all this service we have been disadvantaged and devastated. Nobody is doing well but those that didn't serve, and even some of them feel the heavy toll.

My father was a Military Policeman during the FLQ crisis at St. Hubert. He was there for the discovery of Pierre Laporte's body. He was also stationed in Germany, like me, when he had to clean up an accident scene at a multi fatality Canadian school bus accident. Dad was affected by these 2 almost concurrent events, but in those days there was nothing being done for PTSD sufferers at all. He suffered terrible, and we kids lost our dad early because he couldn't handle the ghosts. Much like his father. Much like my children are missing thier Father.
This family has suffered a pile for the service of this country, and we have never been satisfactorily treated by Canada or the VA.

I get the part about "Liberal distaste" because I have a brother in law who serves the liberal bench and has on several occassions in several conversations demonstarted his disdain for my family's service.
I have theory on that; His family is Italian and left the homeland to avoid conscription, and our distinguished military past embarrases him. He has never demonstarted a kind heart or any sort of concern for what my family went through. In fact, his major concern during our traumatic event and my mother's passing was my mother's estate. Far too involved he was.

Another fact, while we were struggling in Germany immediately post accident, he was pilfering my mothers home. He also on purpose withheld her desperatly needed medical insurance papers untill it was too late.
This is the sort of folks that make up our liberal leadership today, and that is why I'm so harsh.
I've written MP Peter Mackay who deleted my e-mail without reading, the same applies for MP Scott Brison of my own riding. Mrs McDonough did bother to tell me in a backhand sort of way that what I was doing was wrong and she would forward my e-mail to MP Peter Stoffer. I wonder if to bolster their case against selling medals. 

If MP Peter Stoffers private members bill passes, making it illegal for me to sell my medals, what would they have me do? Eat them!!
Please pass this link on to your address books and ask them to do the same. A family was injured and it is unconscionable that we would be so neglected and then ignored, as if told to go away.

Cpl(Ret) Marc W MacLean CD

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 16-Feb-05 at 15:00:15 EST, seller added the following information: 

**UPDATE

Well, I don't have to wonder any more how far one has to push the man before he takes your life away.

I listed these medals & made my statement 4 days ago.

Yesterday I recieved an eviction notice to leave my base housing. Keep in mind I'm fairly ill.
Today, my car was repossesed. Now going to be much more difficult to reintegrate, find new place, get medical help, find new job, fight this thing......
When I cried "injustice" for my family while serving, The CF took my job and support system.

The CF promises continuing care after release. I was released without a family doctor and follow up. I was told to use emegency rooms.
PS. I have so far reinvested any bid money into more eBay advertisment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 17-Feb-05 at 14:22:14 EST, seller added the following information: 

***Example of how CF members of the same unit and of similar rank/seniority are treated differently according to how much they are liked by the Brass.

Airman 1 has served 18 years with not a tour under his belt and only a CD on his chest. He develops throat cancer; heavy smoker all his life. He is retained for 7 years so that he can reach a pension of 25 years. Airman 1 was well liked as a yes man to his Brass. Not much respect amongst his peers. The medical officer puts much effort into and sees to it that Airman 1 is retained till 25 years and receives also a very handsome VA pension. They blamed it on workplace chemicals. He was liked by the Brass and got more support than most anybody. So all his traveling expenses & non covered medical bills have been paid for him. He and his family did so well they built a new home.

Airman 2 has served 18 years with several tours and a nice rack on his uniform. I grew up with this airman and know that his back was injured as a young man while working the family farm. He manages to join the CF in mid life and hide his injury successfully because there was never a medical report. Several years later the injury crops up again while improperly heavy lifting a 45 gal drum. A medical injury report is filed,â Å“Form CF98â ?. Airman 2 files a VA claim and on the 1st attempt is successful in being pensioned for an extra $1500 a month on top oh his pay as a CF member still allowed to serve, although he can't lift his own feet. Very average Supply Tech. So he gets to carry on his career building pension benefits while collecting handsome VA pension. His bills and medical expenses are also completely covered by the VA.

Myself, I've served 17 years when I am diagnosed with PTSD; 10 years after the fact, because the Doctor who handled me didn't believe in PTSD It took a non military doctor to recognize my symptoms. This lady Dr. had to argue my case with the non believing Base Surgeon, and finally got me a referral to the OTSSC, that was ultimately referred 1 year later. Most of my referrals usually took about 6 months to see a specialist. All the while my career is disappearing. The lady Dr. was soon out of a job with the base hospital. I'm placed on a sick list when I really want to work. I'm told by my case manager that they will work on finding me a less stressful psn/trade out of my confirmed toxic workplace. I'm assigned one social worker after another, and when I get to the final one I ask him specifically what his role and responsibilities are. He's such a newbie, â Å“and in charge of the base officeâ ?, he has no idea what his role as a base social worker was. He does tell me he's going to also try to find me a new psn. New psn never happens. I develop pancreatic cancer from benzene in the fuel we handled, and cervical/lumbar deterioration from years as an infanteer carrying 100 pound loads on a 130 lb frame. They change course of action while in my hospital bed after cancer surgery, and begin to process my release. I asked for my entitlement of a representing officer to plead my case for retention. I was told there was none for me, all the officers were to busy. I would have to beg and plead on my own to never succeed in retaining one. The release went through. I was too weakened from surgery and PTSD to fight it. I was incredibly well respected by my mates but not my brass for my ways of speaking out against injustice within the CF. So I was released almost immediately compared to the other. I received no base medical support in pressing the VA. I have been waiting twice as long for my files to be reviewed, and I have been refused twice. In my case a family was truly injured while serving NATO overseas? Just don't get it. I swear to my shrink that I died that day on the autobahn, and this is my heck. I served with the utmost of distinction. I was praised by all my superiors and advanced in rank at an unheard of speed, but as soon as I was diagnosed with PTSD, and became a sore spot for the Base Surgeon Dr. Mark Allan. He realized his error when the Lady Dr. insisted I be referred against his will, and he began a campaign to medically release me. I recieve no support as far as paying my expenses, and I'm sure a few of you still reading this story will easily admit; being sick is EXPENSIVE! I am whithout limit completely flabergasted at how these goddamn people get away with this sort of Neglect with Malice, and Abuse of the weakest within thier ranks. I was once the strongest amongst them.

Marc

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On 17-Feb-05 at 14:30:20 EST, seller added the following information: 

****I Should Have Said.."According to How Far a Soldier Has His Nose Up His Superior's Butt."

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On 18-Feb-05 at 09:58:26 EST, seller added the following information: 

Here Are A Couple E-Mail Addresses If You Kind Readers Would Like To Write Someone To Raise Awareness

Massimo Pacetti pacetm@parl.gc.ca

 His riding contact alfonso.carnavale@fbn.ca

 Alexa McDonough alexa@hfx.eastlink.ca

 Alexa McDonough mcdonough.a@parl.gc.ca

 Peter MacKay mackay.p@parl.gc.ca

 Scott Brison brisoS@parl.gc.ca

 Scott Brison don.bureaux@acadiau.ca

 Bill Twatio (Esprit De Corps Mag) Esprit de Corps espritdecorp@idirect.com

 Veterans Affairs Appeal Board VRAB_TACRA@vac-acc.gc.ca

 VAC Minister Albina Guarnieri Guarnieri.A@parl.gc.ca 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 18-Feb-05 at 16:06:16 EST, seller added the following information: 

A Bit About the Accident and Immediate Events â â€œ A Picture of Failure, and Breakdown of Responsibility by Those With the Sworn Responsibility to Care for CF Dependants While Stationed Overseas...

It's a sunny but windy day in Baden Solingen this winter day. My young family and I have reached our long sought after goal of a posting to Germany serving NATO. Just like my father 25 years earlier and similar to his father almost a hundred years ago. Three generations serving Canada on foreign soil. All return injured, and all are neglected.

Were all excited for Christmas and my mother's arrival for the holidays. My mother, a European orphan of the WWII had just retired and closed her business after single handedly raising us 3 kids. Mom was excited I was stationed in Germany just as much as we were. This was her home, and she was after all, coming home. 

The only affordable flight for Mom was into Brussels. It would mean a 7 hr drive from my base to the airport. With not an inkling of the danger facing us on this superhighway we get on our way. The first stop is the base fueling station, and I meet up with my supervisor who has graciously allowed me the day off to go get mom. We chat for a moment and as we part I can remember myself saying to John that I didn't feel good about the drive, a bit nervous. The autobahn for the first time is a bit like your first solo flight as a pilot. The pucker factor is quite high. Really, we should have been briefed as to the dangers and given some sort of familiarity course. Must not have either been the foresight or the available budget.

All is uneventful on the trip there, and there's a happy reunion with Mom at the Brussels airport. We about face and begin the trip home at about 9 am. The sun is gaining strength and so are the gale winds that are plaguing Europe this winter of 89. Much of the Black Forest was blown down in the storms. Holland was flooding badly and the Berlin Wall had just come down. All this made the highway even more dangerous with wind and an overabundance of east German traffic that didn't drive very much like us.

We were blown sideways suddenly into another car. In correcting the unfamiliar front wheel drive to successfully avoid the other car I lost control of our Ford Escort. We left the road at about 80 mph. These speeds are necessary on this highway. The car spun into a very deep ditch and rolled and flipped until there was just a ball of metal left of the car and it came to rest. Then the glass came to rest all over the metal of the car leaving me with these sounds of squealing tires, falling glass, and the pitiful moans of my injured family. I was in perfect shape, but for light cuts and much later discovered cervical injuries. The first thing I saw when I dared open my eyes was my 6 year old daughter walking towards me along the ditch. I looked to my right and my wife was leaning forward moaning and holding her head. Then I look back for mom and to confirm my daughter is not in her seat. No, that was her in the ditch. My mom is lying on the rear deck out of her seat and in very much pain. She's broken her back and a couple ribs. One of the ribs has punctured her lung. The smoke and dust is clearing, and I unbuckle to climb out the front windscreen to go to my daughter and bring her to her mom. All this is happening in a very dreamy state and slow motion. My training is of benefit to me in organizing the scene until help arrives.

The German police arrive before the ambulance and tell me to leave my injured family to go climb the ditch and sit in the back of their car. At first I was not leaving my family until they were in ambulances, but the police insisted, and I had not much choice. I didn't see my family again for about 6 hrs. In those 6 hrs, not a soul would try to explain to me where they were or what had become of my family. I was being held in a room with a nurse and a police officer. I begged and frustratingly pleaded for news and a phone to call my base Duty Officer for help, â Å“Standard Operating Procedureâ ?. As I was saying, after those horrific 6 hrs I was allowed a telephone and was told what was going on. My mom was in ICU, and my wife and daughter were taken to another hospital. I used the phone to call WO John Hawley at the base, expecting him to notify the Base Duty Officer who would activate emergency procedures for my family. Not a hope in heck would I receive any support from my base!! My Family and I must have been too insignificant. Not a soul was notified and not a single SOP was acted upon.

This story you can imagine makes me relive and become PTSDed out.... So I'll leave you for now and take a break to return later with the continuing tragedy my   family would experience unnecessarily, and I'll outline further the breakdown of chain of command in this case


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## Blakey

That sure is a horrible story but, forgive me for being frank, what does his PTSD of the accident have anything to do with the Military and VA giving him a pension?
Sorry, but I just don't see the relevance here. *Granted*, he just might have PTSD, but why should he receive a pension through the military or VA for it?
Maybe I missed something in the post......


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## Gizmoboy

The member is certainly pensionable because while serving in Europe overseas he/she is covered 24/7. There are many good example of this. The most recent is of 2 airman who while driving a rental fr base to get personal supplies where involved in an accident that was quite serious. All the results aren't in yet, but at first impression, it seems the CF is going to accept responsibly for the event usually resulting in VA entitlement.

The member is also entitled on the point of aggravation where standard SOP was not followed, resulting in aggravated symptoms. The CF medical system has absolute and an unarguable responsibly to the member and his CF Dependants while stationed overseas. It's not a stretch to see how dropping the ball and allowing this member and his family to fall through the cracks, would seriously cause aggravation.


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## Gizmoboy

Right, I should have mentioned the 2 Airman's MVA was in Italy.


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## Blakey

Gizmoboy said:
			
		

> The member is certainly pensionable because while serving in Europe overseas he/she is covered 24/7.



Why would serving "Europe" and getting injured "off duty" be any different than say serving in (just to throw out a location) CFB Shilo, and getting injured "off duty"? Or are you saying that in Euorpe your on duty 24/7?.
Something seems askew here, something just doesn't add up for me. In cases like this the outsider "me" never gets to here the whole story.


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## Michael Dorosh

Ok, a link will suffice, you don't have to spam the entire pathetic story into your post.  Start another thread, and provide the link next time.


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## Gunner

Just another example of PTSD being the flavour of the day and everyone that has ever had something bad happen to them wants to climb aboard and milk the system.  I find these types of self-pity displays very frustrating.  Those that could really use the help usually suffer in silence.


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## Gizmoboy

The Link so graciously requested by the staff here at Army.ca......there funny.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=6513434252&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT


giz


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## Gizmoboy

The retired member would like to publicly offer the proceeds of the sale to Army.ca's donation fund to show a lack of need for profit and honorable intent.

Please keep in mind, the medals are of no interest to anyone but of course the member and maybe a collector. The member would like to have them in safe careing hands.

Would Army.ca accept?


giz


----------



## Gizmoboy

If you read the article you'd notice this happened 15 years ago. The comments so far by the staff of Army.ca demonstrates the ignorance that has left this issue festering for 15 years, and the FAMILY WITHOUT HELP!! It's really not often a family is injured while overseas, and a reader should really be focusing on the lack of care this family received after such a traumatic event. Or maybe as I suspect this staff member will see it; the only sort of service injury deserving support would be one incurred on a battle field. Do some reading of the VA act sir.

This is a family who was silent for 10 years so as not to ruin the chances of serving again. You remember those days when a member couldn't serve and collect VA benefits. And who said this was about a pension. That's another demonstration of the "pension" paranoia that permeates the ones in charge. Maybe just some counselling and therapy would be in order. This family only ever received first aid from German doctors who weren't going to provide more until proof of insurance was provided. Read CFAOs & QR&Os to see the command and medical staff had a responsibility, and they dropped the ball horribly. What a larger crime sir? Quote me one?

the link..... http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=6513434252&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

Giz


----------



## George Wallace

Gizmoboy

You have SPAMMED this Forum with this topic.  Give it a bit of a rest and see what will transpire.  As it stands now, you are becoming quite annoying and you are turning people off.

Wait it out and see if someone can think of a REASONABLE solution or suggestion.  'Till then Wait and learn.

GW


----------



## Gizmoboy

Wilco wait out....


----------



## Franko

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Gizmoboy
> 
> You have SPAMMED this Forum with this topic.   Give it a bit of a rest and see what will transpire.   As it stands now, you are becoming quite annoying and you are turning people off.
> 
> Wait it out and see if someone can think of a REASONABLE solution or suggestion.   'Till then Wait and learn.
> 
> GW



TANKS George   

Regards


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Gizmoboy said:
			
		

> The retired member would like to publicly offer the proceeds of the sale to Army.ca's donation fund to show a lack of need for profit and honorable intent.
> 
> Please keep in mind, the medals are of no interest to anyone but of course the member and maybe a collector. The member would like to have them in safe careing hands.
> 
> Would Army.ca accept?
> 
> 
> giz



Honorable intent?  To do what, smear the entire Army?  He cries about how he is selling his medals for food, and now you are saying you are in communication with this lowlife who is now realizing his medals are pretty much worthless and so he will donate his money to army.ca to make some kind of point?

If there is a lack of need for profit, as you say, why does the auction listing say the exact opposite?

I get the feeling this is some sad little fellow who picked up the medals at a thrift shop and thought he could make a profit playing on the generousity of others - throw in some made up story about how bad the government treated him, and bob's your uncle.

That would be great, if it wasn't bringing discredit to all the ones, like Gunner noted, that have borne legitimate hardship from their service.

I would advise the scam artist in this case to come up with something more original - like the biker dude who sold his ex-wife's wedding dress for thousands of bucks, then went on Jay Leno to talk about it.

Oh, and why are the feedback comments for the seller private?  They are all positive, so what is he hiding?  Maybe 80 other sets of "his" personal medals?


----------



## Blakey

> Now, if it hadn't been for my service, I wouldn't have been there in Germany, or on the world's fastest super-highway,





> I have reached our long sought after goal of a posting to Germany serving NATO



Like I said in my previous post, something is askew here, at at a glance these two quotes from the ebay site seem to contradict themselves, the former member is trying to give the impression that he was forcibly posted to CFE (Germany), while in the second quote it reads much differently.

I'm not a SME on the subject so, if you could provide links to the VA website that hold any like information to your claims it wold be greatly appreciated.

Please, do not get me wrong here, _certain protocols_ within the military might have been overlooked at the time of the accident, but I just don't see the relevance here (WRT VA/Pension Bennifits). 
To go through that kind of an experience would be horrible, for anyone.

There is much more I wish to write but, i will leave it at that for now and give anyone else a chance to respond.


----------



## Gizmoboy

Folks, comments like that are not helpful to this family who was once one of you.

giz


----------



## Blakey

Gizmoboy said:
			
		

> Folks, comments like that are not helpful to this family who was once one of you.
> 
> giz



Please specify a quote and, any luck with digging up the the pertinent info that i eluded to in my previous post?


----------



## Gizmoboy

Too sick at this point to play this game with you. Please read amongst yourselves, research amongst yourselves, and be helpful. Thanks.

giz


----------



## Blakey

Gizmoboy said:
			
		

> Too sick at this point to play this game with you. Please read amongst yourselves, research amongst yourselves, and be helpful. Thanks.
> 
> giz


Im not about to to your _homework_ for you.


----------



## Gizmoboy

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Honorable intent?   To do what, smear the entire Army?   He cries about how he is selling his medals for food, and now you are saying you are in communication with this lowlife who is now realizing his medals are pretty much worthless and so he will donate his money to army.ca to make some kind of point?
> 
> If there is a lack of need for profit, as you say, why does the auction listing say the exact opposite?
> 
> I get the feeling this is some sad little fellow who picked up the medals at a thrift shop and thought he could make a profit playing on the generousity of others - throw in some made up story about how bad the government treated him, and bob's your uncle.
> 
> That would be great, if it wasn't bringing discredit to all the ones, like Gunner noted, that have borne legitimate hardship from their service.
> 
> I would advise the scam artist in this case to come up with something more original - like the biker dude who sold his ex-wife's wedding dress for thousands of bucks, then went on Jay Leno to talk about it.
> 
> Oh, and why are the feedback comments for the seller private?  They are all positive, so what is he hiding?  Maybe 80 other sets of "his" personal medals?




You just don't need to know about the sex toys I've been buying to keep myself occupied.

giz


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## Torlyn

Gizmoboy said:
			
		

> You just don't need to know about the sex toys I've been buying to keep myself occupied.



wtf?  "How to ensure you're not taken seriously 101"


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Ok, so am I getting this correctly?  Giz is actually the ebay vendor?

I suggest that if you want to advertise your medals, you go post in Buy/Sell/Trade.  Locking this up now.


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## military granny

OK Guys and Gals here's a good question for all. What do you all think about people selling the Memorial Crosses on e bay? The following is a story in the papaer I found this morning, the widow is still living and family members found the cross on eBay. Now the question is...should it be illegal to sell historic war medals on on-line auctions?


http://www.thewhig.com/webapp/sitepages/content.asp?contentID=223486&catname=Local+News


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## Brads MM

Memorial Crosses should never be sold...it would only be proper that if a person selling one on ebay was contacted by a deceased soldiers relatives that He would end the auction and make arrangements to return the M.C. to the family. It would be the ethical thing to do. Much like the one seller on ebay who is selling found dog tags from Vietnam, He should be returning them to family members if he is contacted. There are some heirlooms which shouldnt be sold .It is my feeling that these types of sellers are driven by dollar signs instead of values. Just my opinion.


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## military granny

Brad 
I have noticed a few of them on eBay in the last couple days and it sickens me to think there are families out there that don't have the memorial crosses they were given. I have two that were given to my great grandmother and I treasure them and the history the signify.


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## wotan

I've collected various medals for a number of years.  I have the majority of them mounted in a tasteful display and I have used them to educate people about what each means and how the soldier it was awarded to may have earned it.  Otherwise, they are displayed in my home along with my own memorabilia.  Therefore, my opinion here is somewhat biased.

  I cannot understand why families would sell off the medals of their loved ones, but it does happen.  I would suspect that in a good number of cases, that as the medals are passed down within families, the story behind the medal is lost, hence the family members have no real idea as to what they have inherited.  I would also assume they don't have much interest, as a simple internet search will reveal at least the general parameters of what a medal was awarded for.  As well, there are those veterans that pass away and who have no one left in the world.  Perhaps they never had children, perhaps they have lost touch with any of their family members that may have survived.  Whatever the case, a wide range of medals are regularly coming onto the market.

  I don't particularly approve of people buying medals as an investment, however, it does happen.  Various countries have laws regarding these activities (for example in the US it is illegal to sell or buy a Congressional Medal Of Honor), but again, unless the laws are enforced, sales will continue.

  I have seen a variety of buyers of medals over the years do some very nice things with them.  One young collector I knew managed to get the War Medal, Victory Medal and Dead Man's Penny of a WW1 soldier.  He contacted the descendants of the soldier's siblings and passed these items to them, along with what each meant.  The family was duly grateful and now cherishes these items.  Other collectors have donated items to museums (both Regimental and public), as well as Legion Branches and other veteran's organizations.  

  Essentially, from my perspective, buying or selling medals isn't an inherently nasty thing, but I believe a certain degree of common sense and decorum ("ethical" behaviour, but a definition on that would vary widely) needs to be exercised.

  Just my .02.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Please keep in mind that if there was no 'collector's market' for these medals, then the families who did not want to keep them (or the estate where there is no remaining family) would most likely have discarded them as worthless junk.  Many collectors actively research the soldiers whose medals they have acquired, and accept it as a personal responsibility to keep their memory alive.

I also collect medals, specifically to soldiers of my own regiment.  And in similar respect to surviving families, I participated with an online group of collectors who mutually agreed not to bid on an e-bay auction to allow the surviving family to acquire the medal. 

This article relates the result of one line of research I followed regarding a Memorial Cross: http://thercr.ca/individual_submissions/tnlfe_oleary/their_name_liveth_for_evermore.htm
Note the locations of the photographed gravestones.

I think you might agree that it was hardly an unethical pursuit.

(Edit: spelling)


----------



## military granny

Mr. O'Leary and Wotan
I commend you for doing research on the men named on the memorial crosses you both have acquired.I do know one other person who does this before he purchases any named medals, or does it shortly after he buys them. The thing I am saying here is, there are people out in the world that are just medal dealers, that do this for the money. Yes there are times when military medals end up in estate sales, when no family members are left to claim them. But don't you think that conscientious people should find a museum to give them to.
 The thing that gets me is that these memorial crosses as well as all WWI and II medals are a very big part of our history. And for some medal dealer to have them on eBay or any other on-line auction site is IMPO degrading the service these soldier did for our country.How can you put a price on their service and death.


----------



## Yrys

military granny said:
			
		

> How can you put a price on their service and death.



Mr. O'Leary didn't put a price on their services and death.
But some people do, and it is seen in every activities in most country.
Accidents happens, companies or individuals are blame for it, 
and a price for a leg, an arm or a life is reaches, either through agreement
or court.

It is sad, but it is part of our lives.

Personally, I don't posse any medals, but I have the buttons that my mother
keeps from her RCAF uniform. This thread is beginning to impact on me.
Maybe I should do something with them, beside keeping them in a box...


----------



## Michael OLeary

military granny said:
			
		

> Mr. O'Leary and Wotan
> I commend you for doing research on the men named on the memorial crosses you both have acquired.I do know one other person who does this before he purchases any named medals, or does it shortly after he buys them. The thing I am saying here is, there are people out in the world that are just medal dealers, that do this for the money. Yes there are times when military medals end up in estate sales, when no family members are left to claim them. But don't you think that conscientious people should find a museum to give them to.
> The thing that gets me is that these memorial crosses as well as all WWI and II medals are a very big part of our history. And for some medal dealer to have them on eBay or any other on-line auction site is IMPO degrading the service these soldier did for our country.How can you put a price on their service and death.



Why do you feel the need to state that collectors and dealers are putting "a price on their service and death" when in the same breath your "commend" us for our actions?

What do you think happens to medals at Museums once they feel they have enough on display?

Would these medals be better off in the hands of a collector who will research and protect them, or would they be better off being the 500th identical set of medals in a box in the Canadian War Museum warehouse for eternity?  Which of those possible end states would best achieve your desire to see them treated with reverence in the memory of the soldiers?

Yes, there are some whose primary interest lies in the trade (and profit) of medals and militaria - but that's how they move towards the collectors (or even searching families) who will give them the care and treatment you wish to see given them.


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## 1175CMR

Here is my two cents.

I collect medals and memorial items to a specific battalion.  My main interest in collecting these items is to eventually donate them to a museum with connections to the battalion.  

I am a firm believer that medals should remain as part of a family's history.  However, these items often find their way out of the family, sometimes lost, stolen, or sold.  I also attempt to repatriate these items to descendants of the original owner.  However, it is easier said then done.  I have been successful once in returning found medals to a family member.  I have also been told to keep the medals as the family did not like the soldier and wanted nothing more to do with him.  In fact, they told me they were the ones who sold them in the first place.  Also, in 1935, my great uncle sold his for a bottle of scotch.  A tragic story but I am still searching for his medals.  So, there are many reasons why medals get into the hands of others.

In the end, many collectors do so to keep memories alive and if families are not willing to do so then it is a good thing.

I guess we all have differing opinions


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## wotan

Mr. O'Leary,

  I would see your actions as not only entirely ethical, but also highly commendable.  If there was a particular point in my previous post that caused offence, I do apologize as none was intended.


Military Granny,

  I believe I understand your point and your concern for honouring this nation's dead is absolutely laudable.  But when the families of the soldiers don't value these items (either they don't know or understand their value or, as you put, they are certainly able to put a price on their loved one's service), why should dealers or collectors be held to a higher standard than the families themselves?  Regarding the Memorial Cross in particular, I personally cannot fathom why a family would part with it, other than perhaps to donate it to a Regimental Museum or similar.  Yet, it still happens for a variety of reasons.

  As for donating private collections to Museums, that has to remain up to the individual collector, in my opinion.  I have considered allowing my collection to be displayed by my Legion Branch, but I have hesitated for several reasons.  My Branch is a smaller Branch, physically, so there isn't necessarily the space to display these items properly.  As well, insurance companies are very good at assigning a value to these types of collections and the Branch would be required to purchase extra insurance.  A nominal amount to be sure, but for a small Branch, every dollar counts.

  Again, just my .02.  I believe your sentiments are completely on target, but reality and human nature simply indicate that medals will continue to be bought and sold for years to come.  I can only account for those that are in my possession and I try to treat them with the reverence they deserve.  Personally, I don't think even a change in the Criminal Code would have any true effect on the current level of trading in these items.  And, sadly, as more of our WWII and Korea vets pass, I foresee their descendants losing touch with their military service and continuing to part with these medals via e-mail, garage sales, etc.  Sad, but there you have it.


----------



## Gunplumber

Micheal,
Well written. 

Most medal collectors I know take great pride in researching the recipient of the medal. One collector I know has more information on mebers of a Regiment than the Regiment itself. They even contact him when they need information. I really doubt that the War Museum cares about half the stuff they have in their collection and as Michael says it would most likely get stuck in a box never to be seen again.


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## military granny

Mr. O'Leary
I didn't mean to offend anyone here, and if I did I'm sorry. That was never my intention.


----------



## wotan

Granny, 

  I certainly can't speak for Mr. O'Leary or anyone else here.  But, I certainly have not been offended.  Your question seems perfectly legitimate and I believe your sentiment is an admirable one.  I just believe that a more pragmatic view will hold sway in practical reality, regardless of what our sentiments may be.  Cheers.


----------



## military granny

Thank you Wotan.


----------



## Michael OLeary

The population on army.ca is a very diverse one with broad ranges of personal interests.  Generalizations in any such forum is likely to contradict another's persoanl views of their own chosen vocation, hobbies or activities.  We have discussed past proposals for restriction of dealings in medals, and have seen views ranging from defence to disinterest.  I have yet to see a credible argument for denying collectors their hobby that would result in a similar level of protection and interest being shown in these precious artifacts.  

Don't picture it as defence of the trade in medals, but of the opportunity to research their owners, to 'know' these soldiers, rather than to have them lost in an attic or museum basement.  The 'trade' is the necessary evil that gives us the chance to do so, the range of pricing on any particular items is simple free market economics - supply and demand. And if that interest and its resulting demand did not exist, we would have far less knowledge compiled and collected about those soldiers who served before us.  While it would certainly be possible to research a randomly selected soldier, it becomes far more realistic when the start point is a medal that is named to him and you know he held it in his hands, all the while knowing you may be the first person to show any interest in him in decades.


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## military granny

Mr. O'Leary

I agree with the researching of the soldiers from days gone by 110%, I did it for my uncles that were KIA long before I was thought of. And yes I know there is a very big difference in collectors and dealers. You gents that are collectors have my total support in what you do, you take a piece of metal and bring life to it. You find the man behind the name, who he was,what he was, and where he was when he was killed. I will never say that is a bad thing.


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## HItorMiss

military granny said:
			
		

> How can you put a price on their service and death.



$2900 a month with a 400k life insurance was my price, See that's the going rate now day's ;D

As for the Issue at hand, people will make money at anything but eventually those of pure intent will guide or get a hold of those even from unscrupulous dealers so that the reverence deserved of the deed's those men did to get the medals will be properly remembered.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> What do you think happens to medals at Museums once they feel they have enough on display?
> 
> Would these medals be better off in the hands of a collector who will research and protect them, or would they be better off being the 500th identical set of medals in a box in the Canadian War Museum warehouse for eternity?  Which of those possible end states would best achieve your desire to see them treated with reverence in the memory of the soldiers?



In agreement.  If the preservation of this heritage was left solely in the hands of the CWM, much would probably be lost to the nation.  One episode that comes to mind is the Topham V.C.  
http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/bbtopham.htm





> For a number of years the Victoria Cross and campaign medals awarded to Corporal Fred Topham had been on loan to the Canadian War Museum, but, unfortunately, they were mostly kept in storage. When Topham's widow Mary found out they were not on display, she changed her mind about leaving the medals to the CWM and as a consequence left instructions in her will that the VC medal group be sold for her beneficiaries.


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## larry Strong

I read this thread with interest as I have never heard from the other side of the coin so to speak. I have a medals and militaria collection that is global in scope.
I agree with most of the statements about how it would all end in the garbage if not for collectors.

If we don't collect and keep them alive, who will pass on the history, a lot of collectors I know spend a fair amount of time going to schools etc and "show and tell". As to looking at it as an investment, I might make some people mad here, however with my being long past the six figures US$'s I have to look at it as an investment, I buy for the history but also keep in mind the monetary side of things.

I try to avoid E-Bay as much as possible, however you can find some sweet deals, especially if the sellers is totally clued out or missnames things . What really irks me are the dealers who flog a fake as a real item even when they know the difference.

Here is my latest from Evil-Bay:

A Pakistani medal bar to a 1214303 Dvr Haq Nawaz. RPA


----------



## 1feral1

The buying and selling of military medals began long long ago before ebay, even before gun shows and militaria shows too. A far as I am concerned, if a person wants to sell a family member's medals, that his right ( I am not in favour of such BTW - many are not). WE cannot control the sale of private items, can we.

If that family has no interest, at least these medals can be appreciated by someone else.

I think of the few WWII German EKII's I have and one WW1 EKII also. These items were removed from the corpses and wounded German PWs (along with their watches) by my family members. Now, was that in bad taste? does one approve of that? Anyways, I inherited them after my father passed on. I treasure them with the other memoribilia I have from that period. All safely guarded in a locked box back in dear ole Australia.

I also have a Mother's Cross I got from my Aunt. It was from her Grandmother, who lost a son in Passchendaele in November, 1917. Search on here for 267104 PTE Robert Allen, as I wrote about his story a couple of yrs backon this site. I'll never sell that. Its still in its box, a little tattered with a faded King's Crown on it, but once the box is opened that cross, bearing my Great Uncle's name and number, with purple ribbon, as as new as the day it was first opened.

Meanwhile I am expanding my collection of Iraqi Army memoribilia too. A few medals, badges, rank insignia, yes and the ever collectable bayonets from a variety of Kalashnikovs too, ha! 

Regards,

Wes


----------



## the 48th regulator

I use eBay, quite extensively where I have found some great gems in my 48th Memorabilia collection.

I too at time also sell these items, to help generate funds for my passion.  In fact I acquired a Medal, dog tag, and research papers acquired from the Canadian archives (photocopies) of a member of The 15th Battalion (48th Highrs).  I am actually contemplating selling it there as I have my eye on something else that will complete a smaller collection I have.

I know someone could use these items to complete their collection.  In essence it is a type of bartering system, in my opinion, between collectors.  Am I callous for doing it?  I think Micheal O nailed my exact feelings.

dileas

tess


----------



## Hardrations

It's with interest I've been reading this article and all the replies. I totally agree that it is a shame for medals to be sold on when family forget just what and how they were earned. In my case I had my former father-in-laws medals mounted after getting DND to pass on his SSM and CD clasp (they were very helpful) . I went to a local framing shop who mounted the medals with appropriate photo's and on the back of the picture frame, the framer mounted an envelope into which appropriate records, letters etc could be put. In there is a note telling the family if they lose interest, it would be best to pass the medals onto his Regimental Museum, ( not the Canadian War Museum we're not all Billy Bishops) even though they may not display it they could use it in a traveling display on Remembrance times etc. This suggestion came from the former Mjr. John McKenzie RC Sigs (deceased) who was a leader in reorganizing the ( RC Sigs Museum )  Communications and Electronics Museum in Kingston. This is how I plan to handle my medals when I pass on.

Might I also mention that I have come into possession of two sets of WW1 medals that were hidden in  a house in River Heights here in Winnipeg. A fellow I worked with knew my military past and asked me to trace them for him.  It's been very interesting tracing family on these. Which I'm still in the process of doing. I've had assistance from the UK in this matter and have had a lot of fun connecting the dots on these medals (ends up the owners were brother-in-laws) now to just find family. In one case all the family in the UK have died out, this included one brother who died in the Somme in 1917. The other I don't think ever married. 

Another point of interest, is that I've noticed that often some one in the UK will advertise in the Last Post in the Legion Magazine on finding a set of WW 1 Cdn medals. Often these were of a British born soldier who enlisted in Canada but stayed in the UK after the war.


----------



## wotan

Since this topic came up, I figured I would check out www.parl.gc.ca to see what's new with The Honourable Audrey McLaughlins Bill (C-231) regarding the issuance of a Special Service Medal For Domestic Emergency Relief Operations (SSM-DERO).  But, as I was checking that out, I came across Bill C-210 by the Honourable Peter Stoffer.  It is a proposed bill to prohibit the sale of CF and Canadian police medals.  Both bills have only passed first reading, however, it would appear that there is at least some political will to cease the trading in Canadian medals, at least within Canada.  

So, if this bill were to pass, it would be illegal for a Regiment to bid on the sale of a VC, MM or CD of one of it's soldiers, but some Heritage Front enthusiasts would be legally able to bid on the Party Badge, EKI or Deutsche Kreuz of a war criminal.  Odd, but there you have it.


----------



## Hardrations

So, if this bill were to pass, it would be illegal for a Regiment to bid on the sale of a VC, MM or CD of one of it's soldiers, but some Heritage Front enthusiasts would be legally able to bid on the Party Badge, EKI or Deutsche Kreuz of a war criminal.  Odd, but there you have it.  
[/quote]

So there you have it. If our laws were to make any sense at the best of times, it would be very scary.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Great article on the news today

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

War medal given to black Nova Scotia soldier sells for C$7,435 on eBay  

STEVE MACLEOD
Fri Feb 23, 9:48 PM ET



HALIFAX (CP) - A medal awarded to a Nova Scotia soldier from Canada's only black battalion in the First World War has found its rightful home.

A Victory Medal given to Percy Fenton of Arcadia, N.S., about 90 years ago was bought on eBay late Friday for C$7,435.40 by a Canadian bidding on behalf of the Black Cultural Centre in Dartmouth, N.S. "It's a God-send," said Henry Bishop, the centre's curator.

"We're still reeling from the cost it went to. That's why these things should never have been up for auction."

Dave Thomson of St. George, Ont., placed the winning bid with nine seconds to spare.

Thomson, who has helped purchase and return more than 30 medals listed on eBay, said the seller has agreed to give the cultural centre the time to gather enough donations to pay for the decoration.

"It won't be a problem," said Thomson, who placed the winning bid under the eBay name, "hotrodsandhockey."

"They've already got plenty of donations offered to them, plenty of pledges."

Bishop didn't know exactly much money has been pledged but was also confident that people will make good on their promises.

"It's a miracle that we were able to get it in this way, even though it cost at that level," he said. "It's worth it to have it back where it belongs.

"There's a lot of good people out there. I received a lot of great calls from people I've never met in my life but who came to the aid of the party."

Victory Medals were given to every Allied soldier who served in the war. Canadians received 350,000 of the nearly six million that were handed out.

Bids for other Victory Medals on eBay are as low as $10, but the media coverage and the significance of the battalion drove up the price.

Fenton was a member of the No. 2 Construction Battalion, Canada's first black battalion.

The Nova Scotia-based battalion provided logging, forestry and general construction services overseas. All of the more than 600 regular soldiers were black, while all but one of its commanding officers were white.

Fenton's enlistment papers indicate that he was 17 years old when he enlisted in the battalion in 1916.

After serving as a sapper, a type of military engineer, Fenton returned home after the war and was discharged. He later died after falling ill.

Fenton's relatives have objected to the sale, saying the medal belongs in a museum.

"I don't think it's right," Leslie Fenton, one of Percy Fenton's nephews who is now in his 70s, said from Yarmouth this week. 

"I didn't even know that you could sell medals. I didn't even know you were entitled to sell them." 

New Democrat MP Peter Stoffer introduced a private member's bill last year that would forbid the sale of medals. 

He raised the issue in the House of Commons again Friday, urging the anonymous seller from Nova Scotia to cancel the auction and give the medal to the Black Cultural Centre. 

"It is despicable that in this great country somebody would try to financially profit from the valour of other people," said Stoffer. 

Bishop expressed thanks for the efforts of Thomson, who he called "a genius in eBay work." 

"Our history should not be up for grabs," he said. "Every culture has a right to protect what they think is valuable."




Copyright © 2007 Canadian Press


Copyright 2007 © Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.​dileas

tess


----------



## darmil

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070223/medal_blacksoldier_070224/20070224?hub=TopStories


First World War medal nets $7400 on EBay

Updated Sat. Feb. 24 2007 9:29 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

A medal awarded to a soldier from Canada's first and only black battalion in the First World War has found its rightful home after being bought for $7,400 on EBay Friday night.

With nine seconds to spare before bidding was closed, an Ontario man bidding on behalf of the Black Cultural Centre in Dartmouth, N.S. bought the Victory Medal awarded to soldier Percy Fenton.

Fenton was a member of the No. 2 Construction Battalion.

The cultural centre was working with Dave Thomson of St. George, Ont., who has helped buy and return more than 30 medals listed on EBay -- including an Order of Canada medal that was put up for auction last month.

Henry Bishop, the cultural centre's curator, called it a God send. He said he has been touched by offers from across the province, including from a call centre in Yarmouth that has said it raised more than $2,000.

"We believe in the power of human nature. It's a coming together of community,'' he said on Friday.

The Victory Medals were given to every Allied soldier who served in the war. Canadians received 350,000 of the nearly six million that were handed out.

Other Victory Medals on EBay have been won for as low as $10. But Bishop said media coverage and the significance of the battalion drove up the price.

Fenton's Nova Scotia-based battalion did logging, forestry and general construction work overseas. While all of 600-plus regular soldiers were black, all but one of its commanding officers were white.

Fenton's enlistment papers indicate that he was 17 years old when he enlisted in the battalion in 1916.

After serving as a sapper, a type of military engineer, Fenton returned home after the war and was discharged. He later died after falling ill.

Fenton's relatives have objected to the sale, saying the medal belongs in a museum.

"I don't think it's right," Leslie Fenton, one of Percy Fenton's nephews who is now in his 70s, told CP from Yarmouth this week.

"I didn't even know that you could sell medals. I didn't even know you were entitled to sell them."

The case has also renewed calls from New Democrat MP Peter Stoffer, who introduced a private member's bill last year that would forbid the sale of medals.

He raised the issue in the House of Commons on Friday, urging the anonymous seller, who he called a "profiteer," to cancel the auction and give the medal to the Black Cultural Centre.

"It is despicable that in this great country, somebody would try to financially profit from the valour of other people," said Stoffer.

With files from The Canadian Press


----------



## Michael OLeary

How, exactly, is the seller a profiteer?  He doesn't make people bid.  He doesn't pit special interest groups and vigilantes like Thomson against one another.  I suspect the seller was as shocked as anyone to see this medal sell for about 100 times it's estimated market value.


----------



## Michael OLeary

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Bishop expressed thanks for the efforts of Thomson, who he called "a genius in eBay work."
> 
> "Our history should not be up for grabs," he said. "Every culture has a right to protect what they think is valuable."



The "culture" had found a way to protect what it thinks is valuable, and that is the collectors.  Except for those who collect, research and protect such items, many of these medals, once considered unwanted by the families, would have ended up being discarded.  Don't denigrate the collectors who have preserved these objects until now, just because people like Thomson and Stouffer have come along with a different interpretation that has begun to skew the results and opinions of such auctions.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> The "culture" had found a way to protect what it thinks is valuable, and that is the collectors.  Except for those who collect, research and protect such items, many of these medals, once considered unwanted by the families, would have ended up being discarded.  Don't denigrate the collectors who have preserved these objects until now, just because people like Thomson and Stouffer have come along with a different interpretation that has begun to skew the results and opinions of such auctions.



Here Here Michael,

Once again I will say this our "culture" of collectors, often use funds in sale of items to expand our collection.  Our collection is an admiration of our culture as Canadians.

dileas

tess

p.s, it looks like I said that quote....


----------



## larry Strong

Thank you both. You put my thoughts into words better than I can..


----------



## slowmode

I dont believe its right to sell any medals that were earned during war.


----------



## Michael OLeary

slowmode said:
			
		

> I dont believe its right to sell any medals that were earned during war.



What, may I ask, do you consider acceptable fates for medals?


----------



## slowmode

This is just my opinion but I believe medals should be either kept in the family, going through generation to generation. If not that, the families should give them to a musiem to show the Canadians. I dont dont feel its right to buy a medal that was worked hard for. A soldier works hard to earn the medal. Thats just my opinion, everyone else believe somthing different.


----------



## Michael OLeary

slowmode said:
			
		

> This is just my opinion but I believe medals should be either kept in the family, going through generation to generation. If not that, the families should give them to a musiem to show the Canadians. I dont dont feel its right to buy a medal that was worked hard for. A soldier works hard to earn the medal. Thats just my opinion, everyone else believe somthing different.



Families, great if they actually keep them.  Not all have done so.

Museums, a nice thought but don't for minute believe that every group of medals in a museum's collection is on display.  The remainder will sit in boxes and drawers, never seen by the public, never researched, their history and original owners forgotten.

Soldiers do 'work hard' for those medals, they do deserve to be remembered.  In many cases where families no longer exist to retain the medals, or have lost interest, it is the collectors that treasure, value, save and research these medals, the soldiers and their history.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

How about giving them to members unit? or maybe to any unit I'm sure the regimental museum would take care of them.


----------



## slowmode

I totally agree with you. I collect WW2 items, I have been doing so for 2 years now. I've been trying to avoid buying an medals because its just somthing I dont believe should be bought. Maybe later I will buy one but currently I dont believe in doing so. But you have a really good point.


----------



## larry Strong

I might be wrong (the article didn't go into detail) but the sad thing is that this medal probably found it's way into a militaria dealers shop from some relative who didn't give a rat's tail about his relatives military service. Now everyone is feigning indignation.......... I guess the world will become a better place if all us collectors simply boxed up everything we own and turn it in to our local governmental re-distribution center (down the street from the re-education center) where they will determine whether or not it is politically correct to display in a museum or just destroy it for the betterment of civilization.........


----------



## slowmode

Good point, I guess its not always bad to buy medals, keep them preserved instead of them becoming destroyed.


----------



## reccecrewman

No matter what, it is absolutely sickening that a family member be it wife, mother or any other that was presented with a Memorial Cross could have the audacity to sell it.  At the very least, if it brings back painful memories of the deceased, give it to another family member that wants it rather than use it to make a quick buck.  Our men and women that have given their lives in service of their Country deserve at least that.  Not to mention that troops generally max out their SISIP policies prior to departing.  It is a prudent action to take to ensure that your family is taken care of should the worst occur, so what's a few extra bucks when SISIP has already presented you with a cheque for $500,000 as well as the money the Military gives. (Not 100% sure, but I think I remember seeing someplace they get two years of the member's pay......... someone feel free to correct me on this, but in any event, the SISIP policy alone should be more than sufficient)

In any event, to hell with someone who has no respect for the fallen that they are willing to sell off a medal that can only be earned by dying for your Country.  And when you look at it in that sense, the MC carries a value that surpasses any bravery medal.  A bravery medal can be won and the recipient can still be alive to wear it (Not always of course, but quite often)  The MC costs a soldier their life.  So, sweet dreams to someone who feels their loved one is worth $200 (Just a number) because in a sense, when they sell that medal, they are placing a dollar value on that life, and that's just nauseating........... I could rant about this one forever, but I think I've said the point of my thought's on this subject.

Regards


----------



## Michael OLeary

I think you are confusing a number of separate issues.  The principal direction of the discussion thus far has not been the surviving mothers/spouses selling Memorial Crosses or other medals, and to direct strong indictments against them is, perhaps, unneeded.

Families may let medals go to the market for various reasons, it could be a disinterested granddaughter or great-nephew that never knew the soldier, had no emotional connection to the medals, and was required to clean up an estate after the death of a preceding heir to the items.  Despite what our personal feelings are to medals and Memorial Crosses, there are times when there's no-one left in the recipient's family who can, or wants to, care for them.  

The question then becomes, what should happen to them?  Museums (whether national, regional, local or regimental) do not display every artifact they take into their collections.  If they were required to, most would soon close for lack of space and funding to meet such an expectation.  Similarly, few museums have the resources to conduct additional detailed research into every artefact (medals or other) that they receive.

If these items had "no value", then even auctioneers and dealers wouldn't take them off the last owner’s hands.  They would then end up going to the dump with the other unsold bits of the estate.  And that would be a true tragedy.  Similarly, I believe that if any such law was enacted "outlawing" the sale of medals, then those who now let an auctioneer sell them may not even bother to find an alternate resting place for them, and they would as often be discarded.

Collectors get involved in medals not because of their market value, but because of their interest in, or connections with the medal recipients, their regiments, campaigns and services.  Many collectors spend time and money researching the soldiers, sailors and airmen who received the medals.  These collectors become, for lack of any better description, the de facto “family” of the medal recipient, preserving the memory that the family didn't (or couldn't by virtue of there being no further descendants).


----------



## orange.paint

Question would be Mr Leary:
Do you currently have a plan for what happens to the medals on your passing?Or will they hit the cycle of your family putting them back on E bay?
This is where I believe they should be sent to the units,museum's etc.At least then interested per's as yourself could study it there,provide a history of the item,and allow it to remain for those who appreciate these things.

But that's just my opinion.

How about donating to local legions when the history is confirmed?


----------



## Michael OLeary

As for the medals in my own collection, it is my intention that they will pass to the Regimental Museum on my passing.  With them will go any associated research and collected documents.

I have confidence in their storage and display at the regimental museum as they are very specific to the Museum's collection aims and the Museum has an endowment of funds that will help to shelter them in the long term. 

With regard to Legions, I applaud the various Legion Branches for holding the artifacts that they do, but I do wonder what happens when a Branch closes, as many already have.  What is the RCL's overall plan (if there is one) for protecting these items when a Legion Branch closes?


----------



## reccecrewman

> The following is a story in the papaer I found this morning, the widow is still living and family members found the cross on eBay. Now the question is...should it be illegal to sell historic war medals on on-line auctions?



Mr. O'Leary, this was the original post on this thread and thus what my reply was directed at.  I am aware that the bulk of this thread strayed from the original post, however, I was responding to the original post about an MC being placed on ebay when the widow is still living.

Regards


----------



## the 48th regulator

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Mr. O'Leary, this was the original post on this thread and thus what my reply was directed at.  I am aware that the bulk of this thread strayed from the original post, however, I was responding to the original post about an MC being placed on ebay when the widow is still living.
> 
> Regards



Then what has happened was theft, has nothing to do with the actual item, it could be any heirloom taken from the widow.  It is then considered illegal if it was taken against her will or knowledge and sold.

Therefore, if in interest of the original post we should discuss the sale of stolen goods.

dileas

tess


----------



## Michael OLeary

reccecrewman said:
			
		

> Mr. O'Leary, this was the original post on this thread and thus what my reply was directed at.  I am aware that the bulk of this thread strayed from the original post, however, I was responding to the original post about an MC being placed on ebay when the widow is still living.
> 
> Regards



Thank you for the clarification, without a referring quote or comment, replies are normally considered to be in response to immediately preceding remarks.

As for the Memorial Cross (an "MC" is a quite different article), was the one on e-Bay the Cross issued to the widow?  Or were two issued and perhaps it was the one issued to the serviceman's mother?  Since the story link is now empty and we know how the media drifts away from a story once they can no longer kindle anyone's sense of outrage, we will probably never know the full history of the Memorial Cross(es) and how that one got to a public auction.


----------



## reccecrewman

Seen..........

My bad as well.......... I've been here long enough and should have had the original post quoted.  

Regards


----------



## the 48th regulator

There, now people can also take a hobby and help others by it;



> 'Medal detector' reunites veterans with war medals
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave Thomson appearing on Canada AM on June 28, 2007.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hugh Gale appearing on Canada AM on June 28, 2007.
> 
> CTV.ca News Staff
> 
> Updated: Thu. Jun. 28 2007 12:16 PM ET
> 
> A man who has been reuniting the families of war veterans with medals through the use of the Internet has been nominated for a Governor General's Award.
> 
> 
> Dave Thomson, of St. George, Ont. who has been nicknamed the 'medal detector' for his work, has been obtaining the medals using the online auction website eBay.
> 
> 
> The website has acknowledged Thomson's work and has nominated him for the Governor General's Caring Canadian award recognizing his efforts to preserve Canada's war heritage.
> 
> 
> "It's quite an honour, unexpected," Thomson told CTV's Canada AM on Thursday. "I appreciate eBay's interest in what I'm doing because it's their website that makes it possible to do."
> 
> 
> Thomson, an auto parts salesperson by trade, actually became involved in returning the medals almost by accident.
> 
> 
> "On eBay one day I just happened to troll over to (the) militaria (area of the web site) and found a medal from a fellow named Huff from Princeton, Ontario which is just outside of Brant County and I bought it and donated it to the museum and it sort of spiraled from there," Thomson told CTV's Canada AM.
> 
> 
> After retrieving this medal, Thomson continued with the practice. He has now bid on and won more than 65 medals and has returned them to soldiers' families or community museums. His work is clearly being appreciated by the families of the soldiers.
> 
> 
> Hugh Gale received a call from his cousin in North Bay, Ont. who had found out that a local newspaper was looking for Gale's mother because the medals of her first husband, Tony Eaton, were being auctioned on eBay. They were able to retrieve their medals through Thomson.
> 
> 
> "Well, for my mother it's been quite an emotional experience," Gale told Canada AM. "She hadn't seen the medals for over 60 years. So that was quite exciting and it certainly brought back some wonderful memories of her relationship and of course it came at a cost, with some pain as well, because it is a memorial."
> 
> 
> Eaton, who was a soldier from 1940 to 1945, was killed in an accident over England during a training exercise when his plane collided with another aircraft.
> 
> As well as using local newspapers, Thomson has tracked down a number of families through local Royal Canadian Legion branches and genealogical societies.
> 
> Thomson spends over 20 hours a week tracking down medals and spends 2-3 hours on any medals he locates.
> 
> The reason war medals become available for sale on online auction web sites are because they have been lost, stolen or sold by families.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> © 2007  All Rights Reserved.



Canada AM Video

dileas

tess


----------



## villecour

Nice to read about such a story, he is a great guy.


----------



## Reccesoldier

Medals also get sent back to the origin.  Where I work we have a box in our vault of returned medals, some were returned by the member themselves (out of anger) and others were returned by families who didn't want them or didn't know what to do with them.

We are supposed to destroy them all, but somehow we keep on forgetting to do that. 

I had the opportunity to return a members medals (he had been one of the angry ones, a post Somalia casualty), a nice rack of 5.  He was very grateful to have them, and that they were the originals without (R) for replacement engraved on the appropriate medals.

Although our vault isn't that big, I think it would take quite an influx of returns for the people here to follow the letter of the policy and melt them down.


----------



## Greymatters

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> ...  for the people here to follow the letter of the policy and melt them down.



I didnt see that on this thread.  Do you have a link?


----------



## Reccesoldier

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> I didnt see that on this thread.  Do you have a link?



I think you're misunderstanding me.  At the Directorate of Honours and Recognition the policy for medals returned by members or families of members who expressly state that they do not want them any more is that the medals be destroyed.  But as I stated earlier, somehow we keep on forgetting to do that.


----------



## Greymatters

Ah, my mistake...


----------



## Michael OLeary

Nice to know I am held in such high regard by a federal politician.


----------



## geo

Well, what is one to do?
Families sell off their heritage all the time.
While I surrendered my granddad's medals to the R22R museum at La Citadelle, I hung on to his miniatures. Suitably framed with a couple of pictures of him in uniform... hope those who follow will look after the heritage that I leave them


----------



## armyvern

Unpatriotic scum at that you both!!

tsk tsk.  :


----------



## COBRA-6

What a POS!  

The majority of our military heritage antiques would have been lost long ago had it not been for the efforts of private collectors! It would be great if everyone treated the items with the respect and care they are due, but I shudder to think the amount that would have ended up in the dump had some family member not brought them in to a dealer or militaria show to see what they were worth instead of tossing them.

My father is one of the largest dealers of military antiques in the country, who started off as a collector himself. I have been surrounded by the industry since birth. To call people who pour their heart and soul into preserving military heritage the "scum of the earth" is reprehensible! As Tess said how many hundreds or thousands of hours has this MP put into researching Canada's military past, preserving and restoring items, publishing articles and books, etc etc... Mr Stoffer is either grossly ignorant of collecting, a political opportunist, or both.


----------



## Brad Sallows

Stoffer is evidently another one of the poster children for the cause to eviscerate powers of the federal government.  He may be fit to govern some people, but is unfit to govern many.  His power of reason just doesn't meet standard.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Whoa boys! I gotta tell you Peter Stoffer is one of your biggest supporters.  I was at the dinner for the UN vets in August with him and he loves the CF and the Vets. He is against the sale of medals for profit...is that a sin? You are reading a press report and we all know how they warp the facts to suit their agenda to sell papers. Peter is against people making profit from selling medals won with blood...is that a bad thing?


----------



## the 48th regulator

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Whoa boys! I gotta tell you Peter Stoffer is one of your biggest supporters.  I was at the dinner for the UN vets in August with him and he loves the CF and the Vets. He is against the sale of medals for profit...is that a sin? You are reading a press report and we all know how they warp the facts to suit their agenda to sell papers. Peter is against people making profit from selling medals won with blood...is that a bad thing?



Then he does not know the true feeling of people who respect our history, for him to use such strong words.

Totally unacceptable, and unless he has an alternative method of preserving historical memorabillia, my challenge is still up.

A prohibition of the sale of all medals, historical memorabillia and such?

Ignorant, in my opinion.

dileas

tess


----------



## Michael OLeary

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Whoa boys! I gotta tell you Peter Stoffer is one of your biggest supporters.  I was at the dinner for the UN vets in August with him and he loves the CF and the Vets. He is against the sale of medals for profit...is that a sin? You are reading a press report and we all know how they warp the facts to suit their agenda to sell papers. Peter is against people making profit from selling medals won with blood...is that a bad thing?



Then what does he expect to happen when a family member doesn't want to keep those items?  Will he also have it legislated that they must be donated to a Museum?  How will that be enforced?  Will he have it legislated that Museums must research and display every medal they get?  How will he ensure that is done, and funded?  Or will thousands of medals simply sit in boxes in museums all over the country, because they don't have the resources to research them?

He has tried to push through a members bill which would prevent the sale of medals.  What is his plan for what happens after that?  Until he presents a complete plan, he is simply a moral menace threatening the willing activities of many diligent researchers and collectors who spend countless hours and dollars pursuing their hobbies?

If he thinks he can separate the "scum of the earth" speculators from the 'honest' collector/researchers, how exactly does he propose to do that?

If we have been misled by the papers, as you allude may have happened, where is his retraction and explanation?


----------



## the 48th regulator

In the same Paper on the same date....
  
*Painting sells for $475,000
Ottawan plans to invest heirloom's auction price in her children's futures
  *  

Geoff Nixon The Ottawa Citizen 


Saturday, November 24, 2007



CREDIT: Bruno Schlumberger, The Ottawa Citizen 
Kaileigh Richter says she was drawn to a Tom Thomson painting because of the artist's alliterative name, not his art. She was 10. 

An Ottawa woman sold a painting she inherited from her grandmother at auction in Toronto last night for $475,000 -- only months after discovering it was an authentic work from famed Canadian painter Tom Thomson.

Kaileigh Richter decided to sell the painting after having it appraised and learning that it would cost an estimated $10,000 per year to insure.

She told the Citizen last night that parting with the painting was a "bittersweet" affair, but that she would put the money she received from the sale to good use.

"We're going to invest in our kids' future," she said.

The painting was the subject of intense bidding from six suitors for "about 20 seconds, maybe a minute," she said.

Ross Sullivan, spokesman for Heffel Fine Art Auction House, said the purchaser would pay a 15-per-cent "buyer's premium" on top of the $475,000 "hammer price," and then pay taxes on the combined total. The auction house fully restored the work before it went on the block.

The price well exceeded the estimated selling price of $350,000 to $450,000, he said, demonstrating the level of interest art collectors have in acquiring a Tom Thomson work.

"Because his work is so scarce and he died so young, his work is in demand," he said.

Mrs. Richter said she believed the buyer would enjoy the painting and would probably display it more prominently -- until recently, it had been hanging behind a piano and under a heating vent in her mother's living room.

"It was not a very good place for fine art," she joked.

The 1915 work, recently titled Woodland Interior, Algonquin Park, was given to Mrs. Richter's great-grandfather, Albert H. Robson, by Mr. Thomson.

At the time, Mr. Robson was Mr. Thomson's boss at a Toronto advertising agency.

It was later held by her grandmother, Georgina Robson, who died when Mrs. Richter was only 10.

Mrs. Richter picked the painting out of a lot of her grandmother's belongings because she liked the sound of the artist's alliterative name.

"They had pulled out a series of paintings and there was a discussion of some sort ... and when I heard the name Tom Thomson, I said, 'Oh, I'll take that one!'" Mrs. Richter told the Citizen in a previous interview. "I hadn't even seen it, really. I picked it because I liked his name." with files from Jessey Bird

*© The Ottawa Citizen 2007
  
Copyright © 2007 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.*
  

Next step, stop the sale of Historic Canadiana art given to ancestors of Canadians......

dileas

tess


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin

If Stoffer is one of our "biggest supporters", he wouldn't be a member of a party that has such an antipathy towards the Armed Forces and such a brainless position on our current mission in Afghanistan. 

I've collected Victorian Campaign medals myself - medals awarded to soldiers long passed on.  Where does this end?


----------



## X-mo-1979

I believe what he was getting at are those collectors who rip people off.Those medals are pretty common,or their not worth much being famous quotes.Taking advantage of people looking for enough money to get by.

Did you ever think some of those medals you hold are only in your hands due to a family needing money?Looking around their houses and the most valuable thing they can find is some medals.Sell's them to a collector for a fraction of the price he sells them for.

Some people have good reasons for collecting medals.Regimental museums etc.However people buying and selling peoples decorations for profit is a tad much in my opinion.


----------



## armyvern

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I believe what he was getting at are those collectors who rip people off.Those medals are pretty common,or their not worth much being famous quotes.Taking advantage of people looking for enough money to get by.
> 
> Did you ever think some of those medals you hold are only in your hands due to a family needing money?Looking around their houses and the most valuable thing they can find is some medals.Sell's them to a collector for a fraction of the price he sells them for.
> 
> Some people have good reasons for collecting medals.Regimental museums etc.However people buying and selling peoples decorations for profit is a tad much in my opinion.



So, you -- like Mr Stoffer, assume that anyone buying or selling medals (ie collectors who are scum of the earth) who are not doing so for Regimental Museums etc, are only buying & selling medals for profit?? That just means you haven't read the posts from the collectors who've commented below and that you too are a presumtuous ass on this issue.


----------



## X-mo-1979

Sorry that's my opinion.Being a presumptuous *** or not.
Having a differing view on this site than others deserves personal attacks?

Bravo you.

Again it all depends on how its collected and why its collected.
And yes I can understand Mr Stoffer's view.


----------



## the 48th regulator

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Sorry that's my opinion.Being a presumptuous *** or not.
> Having a differing view on this site than others deserves personal attacks?
> 
> Bravo you.
> 
> Again it all depends on how its collected and why its collected.
> And yes I can understand Mr Stoffer's view.



Having a differing view on this site than others deserves personal attacks?

I was considered a Scum of the earth, by a member of Parliament, and you agreed with him.

Sorry, didn't read the guidlines of "this site" that elevated your opinion above those that I hold.

dileas

tess


----------



## the 48th regulator

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> What a POS!
> 
> The majority of our military heritage antiques would have been lost long ago had it not been for the efforts of private collectors! It would be great if everyone treated the items with the respect and care they are due, but I shudder to think the amount that would have ended up in the dump had some family member not brought them in to a dealer or militaria show to see what they were worth instead of tossing them.
> 
> My father is one of the largest dealers of military antiques in the country, who started off as a collector himself. I have been surrounded by the industry since birth. To call people who pour their heart and soul into preserving military heritage the "scum of the earth" is reprehensible! As Tess said how many hundreds or thousands of hours has this MP put into researching Canada's military past, preserving and restoring items, publishing articles and books, etc etc... Mr Stoffer is either grossly ignorant of collecting, a political opportunist, or both.



And might I add, Your father is one of the finest sources of items for us collectors.  This may sound like a cheap advert, but check out;

http://www.medalsofwar.com/

http://stores.ebay.com/E-G-URSUAL-MILITARY-ANTIQUARIAN

Mr. Stoffer, you will see each of this gents items are pure history, and he is providing a service to those that wish to preserve it.

Rather than worry about the sale of medals, why not work on the reasons why they are sold from the family.  Were the vets cared for when alive?  Oh, I see that you like to work on the aspects of vets, but why not search for methods to aid collectors who labour on preserving our history?

dileas

tess


----------



## armyvern

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Sorry that's my opinion.Being a presumptuous *** or not.
> Having a differing view on this site than others deserves personal attacks?
> 
> Bravo you.
> 
> Again it all depends on how its collected and why its collected.
> And yes I can understand Mr Stoffer's view.



Good, and like I said below -- then you too are being a presumtuous ass on* THIS issue*. That doesn't mean I think you're a presumtuous ass on ALL matters. That'd be very presumtuous of me now wouldn't it; and, THAT would be a personal attack.


----------



## X-mo-1979

"I believe what he was getting at are those collectors who rip people off.Those medals are pretty common,or their not worth much being famous quotes.Taking advantage of people looking for enough money to get by."

These are the people I BELIEVE Mr Stoffer is calling "scumbags".And those are the people I also dislike.I'm sure you have seen the car dealers who tell you "well its not worth 5000,that type of car is hard to sell...however I'll TAKE IT OF YOUR HANDS for YOU..."

Not once did I call anyone on this site a scumbag.Unless you openly admit to ripping people off.


----------



## armyvern

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> "I believe what he was getting at are those collectors who rip people off.Those medals are pretty common,or their not worth much being famous quotes.Taking advantage of people looking for enough money to get by."
> 
> These are the people I BELIEVE Mr Stoffer is calling "scumbags".And those are the people I also dislike.I'm sure you have seen the car dealers who tell you "well its not worth 5000,that type of car is hard to sell...however I'll TAKE IT OF YOUR HANDS for YOU..."
> 
> Not once did I call anyone on this site a scumbag.Unless you openly admit to ripping people off.



No, it was this part of the post you've again quoted (but left this bit out -- funny that)



> Some people have good reasons for collecting medals.Regimental museums etc.However people buying and selling peoples decorations for profit is a tad much in my opinion.



Tess isn't collecting for a Regimental Museum etc ...

so I guess he falls into your "scumbag" category.

A lot of those who are buying and selling those medals for PROFIT are putting those profits right back into RESTORING & PRESERVING those medals, and it's very presumtuous of Mr Stoffer to label them as "scumbags" and for you to agree with him simply based on the fact that they are not collecting for some "Regimental Museum etc"..


----------



## X-mo-1979

"Some people have good reasons for collecting medals.Regimental museums etc.However people buying and selling peoples decorations for profit is a tad much in my opinion"

Yes.As I said,its not really worth much.....but I'll give you 50 bucks for the collection.
Making profit off of peoples lack of knowledge of what they actually have itsnt right in my opinion.

not trying to be shady by leaving that out sorry.Just really didnt see its importance.However it is also now explained.

I apparently made some people angry on the issue,i'll back away from it now.You guys have been here for a while,and are most likely right on the subject.

Sorry for that,I'll try to keep my opinions to facts I can back up.


----------



## the 48th regulator

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> "Some people have good reasons for collecting medals.Regimental museums etc.However people buying and selling peoples decorations for profit is a tad much in my opinion"
> 
> Yes.As I said,its not really worth much.....but I'll give you 50 bucks for the collection.
> Making profit off of peoples lack of knowledge of what they actually have itsnt right in my opinion.
> 
> not trying to be shady by leaving that out sorry.Just really didnt see its importance.However it is also now explained.
> 
> I apparently made some people angry on the issue,i'll back away from it now.You guys have been here for a while,and are most likely right on the subject.
> 
> Sorry for that,I'll try to keep my opinions to facts I can back up.



Meh,

I totally agree with your sentiment, but until we can find a filter for the all of the Used Car Salesmen, there is no need for a prohibition of the sale of historical items.  Mr. Stoffer's statement is only a method to gain press time.  Is he ready to ban Christies, Bonhams or Sotheby's for selling historical items?  What are his parameters of "Sacrificing for ones Country"?  Shall we block the works of Farley Mowat from eBay for the fact that he served, therefore not receiving residuals from every sale of his books?

Where do we draw the line?  What is Mr. Stoffer's agenda, or his plan for such a strong statement to be used?

dileas

tess


----------



## 1feral1

There are collectors (like me too), and scum sucking dealers, not all dealers are scum sucking, but they are only chasing the dollars, putting emotion and sentinementality aside.

My 2 bob,

Wes


----------



## COBRA-6

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Yes.As I said,its not really worth much.....but I'll give you 50 bucks for the collection.
> Making profit off of peoples lack of knowledge of what they actually have itsnt right in my opinion.
> 
> not trying to be shady by leaving that out sorry.Just really didnt see its importance.However it is also now explained.



Undoubtedly there have been and are shady dealers who would rip people off if the opportunity arose, as there are in every field of trade... I can tell you that those businesses and individuals are quickly found out, blacklisted and drummed out of the business. 

Just like any other business you can expect to sell at a lower price and see the item sold at market value unless you have a buyer lined up on your own. That is how business works. 

My father built his business not by ripping off old ladies, but by knowing the fair value of every item presented to him (or knowing who would know) and then knowing who was looking to purchase such an item. 

The fact that the individual specifics of an item is what makes it valuable in the militaria field also make it very hard to hock stolen or forged goods in this industry. Stolen/fraudulent items are not like auto and stereo parts, the only reason they are valuable are because they were awarded to Pte Bloggins of xyz Battalion during such and such a battle on this date etc etc... 

Mr. Stoffer may think his heart is in the right place, but he has not done his homework and is WAY OFF in his proposed solution!


----------



## Reccesoldier

Working at Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DH&R) we used to get medals sent to us from time to time, some pretty impressive racks.  they were sent to us by families that didn't want them and had no idea what else to do with them.  To a person all these well families believed that it was _wrong_ to sell their family members honours to a collector, because somehow that word has become synonymous with crook.

It was enough to make you weep.  You see DH&R's policy with regard to returned medals is to destroy them.  Yep, rip the ribons off and melt them down into slag.  That's the honour they are supposed to receive.

Luckily, my predecessor, myself and my replacement (so far as I know) have refused to do this.  However, all those medals are just sitting in a cardboard box in our vault, for all intents and purposes their history has been lost.  The story behind the medals has been lost and will remain lost until some direct relative of that soldier decides that he/she does care and asks for them to be returned or replaced.

I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to return a mans medals to him.  He had shipped them to DH&R after the Somalia incident in disgust of the governments treatment of the whole thing.  He was astounded to get them back.  I considered it one of the best things I did there.

Mr Stouffer apparently doesn't understand what makes these medals valuable either.  Collectors want provenance with the medals.  They want to know the story because it is *THE* history behind the thing that makes its value.  There are hundreds of thousands of Atlantic Stars but only one that was awarded to my Grandfather Able Seaman Henry Furness Leggett who was mentioned in dispatches for actions when the HMCS Fraser was sunk.

This is a stupid idea.  On another note I think the whole thing could be stopped if someone pointed out that the NDP is just riding the coattails of the American "Stolen valour" law.  :-\


----------



## Old Sweat

I am not a medal collector, but do appreciate the preservation of history done by legitimate collectors. As noted, not all dealers are ethical; the following story is offered as an example. A few years ago a friend in the UK emailed me for help in validating a medal being offered for sale. (At this time he was not aware that the Boer War files and medal roll had recently been put on line.) The medal was a Queen's South Africa Medal (QSAM) with three bars, including the Relief of Mafeking. This would make it quite rare as only about 75 Canadians, all members of C Bty, were awarded that bar. Unfortunately the soldier - a member of 2 RCR - whose name and number was engraved on this medal was not one of them. The dealer had removed one of the existing three bars and replaced it with the Relief of Mafeking bar, thus artifically inflating the price.

My friend recently contacted me with a rather odd tale. He had come across a QSAM awarded to a member of B Sqn, RCD which included the Paardeberg Bar. We both independently examined his records on line and confirmed that he was at sea in transit to South Africa while Paardeberg was being fought. Anyway, a few years after the war he concocted a story and was able to convince the Department of Militia and Defence to award him the Paardeberg Bar. I am not sure if my friend purchased the medal, but it should have some extra value for its illicit nature.

I am sure serious medal collectors have lots of similar tales.


----------



## Reccesoldier

An RCD concoct a story?  During the Boer war!! Never!  I won't hear it!!!

History buffs, check your sarcasm meter. ;D


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Peter is against people making profit from selling medals won with blood...is that a bad thing?

His feelings on the matter are not a bad thing; his desire to legislate his feelings is the bad thing.

Medals won with blood (or otherwise) are the property of the people awarded the medals, and subsequently the property of those to whom the original owners transfer title.  Stoffer's proposal is basically to say: "That medal you won with your blood?  It's really the collective property of Canada."  He is treating the medals as property as much as does the veteran or family or collector; but rather than trade openly he proposes in a sense to appropriate.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

I respectfully suggest that you folks who feel strongly about this should send Peter an email. I don't have any time for the party he belongs to...many people have pointed out they feel the same way. Peter is a staunch supporter of Veterans and serving members....he probably had more CF members in his riding of Sackville than any other MP in Canada. I have met him several times and every time I meet him I tell him he is working for the wrong party because his views on Defence are not those of his Party and their leader. As pointed out by others here I believe his intentions are honourable but he may not realize the full impact of his position.....here's how you can tell him

Parliament Hill: 
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6
Tel: 613-995-5822 
stoffp@parl.gc.ca 

 Constituency: 
2900 Hwy #2 
Fall River, N.S. B2T 1W4 
Tel: 902-861-2311 
Fax: 902-861-4620 
stoffp1@parl.gc.ca


----------



## geo

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> I believe what he was getting at are those collectors who rip people off.Those medals are pretty common,or their not worth much being famous quotes.Taking advantage of people looking for enough money to get by.
> 
> Did you ever think some of those medals you hold are only in your hands due to a family needing money?Looking around their houses and the most valuable thing they can find is some medals.Sell's them to a collector for a fraction of the price he sells them for.
> 
> Some people have good reasons for collecting medals.Regimental museums etc.However people buying and selling peoples decorations for profit is a tad much in my opinion.



X Mo 1979
You should know that many medals are sold off by the recipients themselves.  Not necessarily because they need the cash but to dispense with some of the memories they bring back.

So long as "market" establishes a "fair" price for the decoration, I don't have a particular problem with the practice of selling the medal to someone with an interest in collecting/researching the items AND the funds to do so properly.


----------



## Greymatters

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Where do we draw the line?  What is Mr. Stoffer's agenda, or his plan for such a strong statement to be used?



You made 'flavour of the week'.  No different than Dellaire's comments earlier this year that anyone who sells their military skills is a low form of life etc...


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Did any of you email him and continue the democratic process or are you all just going to sit back and take the media's word for what he said and go on grumbling in your beer? :


----------



## the 48th regulator

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Did any of you email him and continue the democratic process or are you all just going to sit back and take the media's word for what he said and go on grumbling in your beer? :



It's an open forum, feel free to send him the link.

dileas

tess


----------



## Jammer

....museums anyone????
Do they not collect and make a profit by admission fees?
Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## armyvern

Jammer said:
			
		

> ....museums anyone????
> Do they not collect and make a profit by admission fees?
> Ignorance is bliss.



Some museums already have drawers full of them. 

...

There's no ignorance involved there at all.

_Realisticly,_ how many do you suggest _they_ purchase, only to not research and restore and to stow away forever unseen? Should this be the responsibility of Museums -- to pay for and collect medals for infinite storage because the original owner/family, for whatever their reasons were, has decided to part with them? What are you going to do in the future when those museums run out of space -- make them use those admission fees to build a larger storage vault too?

I'm sure those museums would appreciate being mandated as to what & how they spend their money. What happens when a very rare artifact comes along (I'm thinking RCAF Museum Trenton & it's Halifax Bomber -- very expensive to acquire & restore it was) -- and that Museum would love to have it, but can't afford to due to buying up people's _no-longer-wanted _ medals? 


_Edited to add:

Reading your post again ... and can see it in the context that it was made now ...

Yep, like 99% of the collectors out there -- they are certainly collecting & making a profit, and -- like 99% of the collectors ... put much of those profits out to restore and research the artifact. Good on them._


----------



## geo

Jammer said:
			
		

> ....museums anyone????
> Do they not collect and make a profit by admission fees?
> Ignorance is bliss.



Museums do not profit from admission fees.  Between staff costs AND maintenance expenses, they don't have much left at the end of the day.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Did any of you email him and continue the democratic process or are you all just going to sit back and take the media's word for what he said and go on grumbling in your beer?

If he's going to climb down from the private member's bill the "media's word" says he has in the works, I'd rather he do it via the media and wear it publicly than in the comfortable political anonymity of personal email.  If he's not going to back off, what is there to talk about?


----------



## Michael OLeary

I am collector, and among others I remember Private Henry William Krimmel.  Private Krimmel died in the First World War, his unit of record is the 7th Light Trench Mortar Battery, a unit which has no perpetuating unit to represent him and his sacrifice to Canadians.

A while ago I acquired Henry Krimmel's Memorial Plaque, which would have been sent to his family after the War to commemorate his loss.  I didn't buy this plaque simply to profit from it or because he was a mortarman, but because I recognized his service number (477501) as a soldier of The Royal Canadian Regiment.  I knew this because my own research to date into my Regiment gave me the knowledge to watch for such clues.

After Krimmel's plaque came into my collection, I requested (and paid for) a complete copy of his service record from Library and Archives Canada to learn more about the service and death of this soldier.  The narrative I constructed from his file is posted below, I would encourage all to read it.  If Krimmel's plaque (for certainly it is as representative of his sacrifice as his medals) had been required to go to a Museum, he would have been forgotten.

Allow me to introduce you to 477501 Private Henry William Krimmel, may he rest in peace and always be remembered by those for whom he gave his life.

*477501 Private Henry William Krimmel*

Introduction

Henry William Krimmel attested for overseas service with the CEF at Halifax, NS, on 22 August 1915.  He was a Canadian Permanent Force soldier who had previously served in the British Army and in Bermuda with The RCR. He served overseas with The RCR until late 1917 when he transferred to the 7th Light Trench Mortar Battery. In late March 1918, Krimmel was badly burned in an accidental fire, and died of shock a few days later on 4 April 1918.


Henry William Krimmel

Slightly below average sized for the era at 5 ft 5 1/2 in and weighing about 118 pounds, Henry William Krimmel was recorded as having a fair complexion, blue eyes and brown hair.  An experienced soldier when he joined the Canadian Army, he carried tattoos gained during his earlier service in the British Army  - St George and the Dragon on his chest, a parrot and butterfly on his left forearm and a peacock and birds on right forearm. 


Family

Henry William Krimmel was born 11 March 1883 at Bethnal Green, London, England. His father, H.W. Krimmel, lived at 285 Corfield St, Bethnal Green during Henry's CEF service.  Henry's service record notes in 1922 that his mother was deceased.

Later in his service Henry gave a next of kin and address as c/o Mrs R. Simmonds Mission House, Glasgow Terrace, Lupus St, London S.W., England.  He also identified one sister, Mrs L. Chubb living at 34 Harcourt Rd., Stratford, England.


Prior Service

Krimmel served in the British Army for 8 years, 46 days with the Royal Sussex Regiment from 4 Oct 1901 to 18 Nov 1908. 

There is no indication in his Canadian service records whether he served in the 1st or 2nd Battalion of the Royal Sussex.  During this period the 1st Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment served at Sitapur  (1902), Rhaniket (1904), Rawalpindi (1905), Umballa (1906), and Solon (1908). The 2nd Battalion, The Royal Sussex Regiment served at Shorncliffe  (1902), Malta (1904), Crete (1905) and Ireland: Belfast (1907).

Henry William Krimmel was taken on strength The Royal Canadian Regiment (The RCR) in Toronto, ON, on 17 September 1913.  He was assigned regimental number 12217. 

His character on release from the British Army was recorded by The RCR as "exemplary" and was likely transcribed from his discharge certificate.

Henry William Krimmel was in good health during his early years of service.  He was noted as requiring no hospital admissions in either Toronto or Halifax or while in Bermuda during his Permanent Force service.


CEF Service

Henry William Krimmel served with the Regiment in Bermuda (1914-15) and, after returning to Halifax, NS, with the Regiment, attested for overseas service with the Canadian Expeditionary Force (CEF) on 22 August 1915.  His regimental number was replaced with the CEF service number 477501.

Krimmel disembarked at Boulogne with The RCR on 1 Nov 1915.  He served continuously with the Regiment and was briefly hospitalized from 29 April to 5 May 1916 for a laceration of the left wrist.

On 23 Jul 1916 he was attached to the 7th Light Trench Mortar Battery, the brigade mortar battery for the 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade, to which The RCR belonged.  While serving with the Battery, he was granted a "Good Conduct Badge" for 2 years service on 20 Nov 1916.  He also enjoyed a 10-day leave period between 20 Dec 1916 when the leave was granted and 3 Jan 1917 when he returned to his unit. 

On 1 Oct 1917, Krimmel was finally struck off the strength of The RCR and officially transferred to the 7th T.M. Bty.  He was granted a further 14-day leave period which ran from 30 November to 15 December 1917.   

Krimmel was attached to the 1st Army School of Cookery at Bethune from 21 Mar 1918. On the night of 28/29 March 1918, Henry William Krimmel suffered severe burns to his hands, face and head.  This occurred accidentally in a storeroom in which he was sleeping while at the 1st Army School of Cookery.  Krimmel was admitted to 8 Canadian Field Ambulance and also the 57th Casualty Clearing Station.  He died from the shock of his injuries on 4 Apr 1918. 


CEF Pay

Henry Krimmel was paid $1.00 per day as a Private.  In addition to this pay he received 10 cents daily Field Allowance. Krimmel had Assigned Pay to his sister, Mrs L. Chubb, 34 Harcourt Rd., Stratford, England. (Sister).  This assignment of $15 per month commenced 1 April 1918 and only one payment was made on his behalf before his death.


Court of Inquiry into Death of 477501 Pte H.W. Krimmel

On 6 April 1918, by order of G.O.C. 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade, a Court of Enquiry was assembled "In the Field" for the purpose of enquiring into and reporting upon the circumstances surrounding the injuries occasioned by fire to No. 477501 Pte. Krimmel H. 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery on 29 Mar 1918

The officers of the Court were Capt L.M. McCarthy; Cdn. Railway Troops (President), Lieut E.W. Duval; P.P.C.L.I. and Lieut. G.S. Ashby; 42nd Cdn. Battalion.

Evidence heard included the following statements:

No. 136165 Pte J.E. Webb, 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery -  _"On the night of March 28/29th, I was on gas guard from 12 midnight to 3.00 a.m. at CROSS STREET, and at about 2.00 a.m. when passing [the] storehouse door I smelt smoke. Upon opening same the storehouse burst into flames and No. 477501 Pte. Krimmel, H. staggered out of the storehouse, making some comment about his tunic.  I immediately roused others in the hut adjacent to the storehouse."_

No. 455223 Pte. F.E. Stewart, 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery -  _"At or about 2.00 o'clock on the morning of the 29th March I was awakened by Pte. J.E. Webb and told that the storehouse immediately adjacent was on fire.  I, along with others, grabbed fire buckets and assisted to extinguish the fire.  I have no knowledge or opinion as to the cause of the fire. Pte. Krimmel had spent the evening with us playing cards in our bunk room and left about 12 o'clock.  There was no liquor consumed during the evening in our hut."_

No. 475775 Cpl. J.H. Blair, 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery -  _"About two o'clock on the morning of the March 29, I was awakened by Pte. J.E. Webb and told the storehouse was on fire.  I supervised the extinguishing of the fire.  On examining the storehouse later in the morning I noticed that with the exception of two at the bottom a pile of roughly 24 mens' packs was entirely destroyed.  There was an old fireplace in this storehouse but never, to my knowledge, was the fireplace used since the 7th Cdn. Trench Mortar Battery took over the storehouse.  I saw Pte. Krimmel at 10.00 p.m. 28th March; he was quite sober.  There was no liquor in the camp, nor do I think he had left the camp that evening."_

Lieut. J.F. McNeill, Royal Canadian Regiment, attached 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery - _"As Officer i/c. 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery (Rear), in my rounds on the 28th March I noted that the fire buckets were properly filled.  The men had received proper instructions as to action in event of fire.  The fire which occurred in the storeroom at about 2.00 a.m. 29th March was quickly extinguished.  We had no oil in the camp this date.  Pte. Krimmel was not using lamps in either cookhouse or the storeroom in which he slept."_

Lieut. J.F. McNeill, The RCR, attached 7th Cdn T.M. Battery, on being recalled, produced a copy of the unit's Fire Orders which were not preserved in Inquiry file.

The Court's conclusions, based on the presented statements and evidence, were as follows:

_"In the matter of the circumstances concerning injuries occasioned by fire to No. 477501 Pte. Krimmel, H. 7th Canadian Trench Mortar Battery, 29-3-18, the Court, having heard the evidence of available witnesses, are of the opinion that the testimony given is not such as would be able to form a definite opinion as to the cause of the fire.  The Court regrets its inability to secure evidence from No. 477501 Pte. Krimmel.  It is of the opinion that no negligence on the part of others contributed to the injuries sustained by Krimmel or loss of property as a result of the fire."_

The findings of the Court of Inquiry received concurrence from Brigadier General Hugh M. Dyer, Commanding 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade on 9 April 1918.  The recommendations prepared for his signature stated: _"I concur in the findings of the Court, and recommend that, in the view of the fact that all necessary precautions for the prevention of fire appear to have been taken, the articles destroyed to be replaced at the expense of the public."_

The Report on Accidental or Self-Inflicted Injuries prepared following Krimmel's injury and death described his injuries as _"Burns, face, head and hands. Fairly severe."_

The brief description of events was recorded as _"Gas Guard discovered fire in room where the above was sleeping. He immediately gave the alarm and went to the assistance of the injured man.  Other men put out the fire."_  

The Commanding Officer's  opinion was given that Krimmel was off-duty at the time of the accident, but that neither he nor others were to blame for Krimmel's injuries.  No disciplinary action against any member of the unit was recommended.


Krimmel's Will

477501 KRIMMEL, Henry William Krimmel had completed a will leaving all his "real estate" and his "personal estate" to Mrs Krimmel (93 Field Rd. Forest Gate, Essex Eng.).  This will was completed on 13 Oct 1915.  The will form included the annotation that "Personal estate includes pay, effects, money in bank, insurance policy, in fact everything except real estate."


Canadian Virtual War Memorial

The Record in the Canadian Virtual War Memorial for Krimmel reads:

In memory of Private HENRY WILLIAM KRIMMEL who died on April 4, 1918. 


Service Number: 477501
Age: 37
Unit: Canadian Light Trench Mortar Battery
Son of Henry William and Emma Krimmel, of London, England.


Krimmel is commemorated on Page 443 of the First World War Book of Remembrance. The seven Books of Remembrance lie in the Memorial Chamber in the Peace Tower on Parliament Hill. Together, they commemorate the lives of more than 118,000 Canadians who, since Confederation, have made the ultimate sacrifice while serving Canada in uniform. The First World War Book of Remembrance  was the first Book of Remembrance created, and is the largest of the Books, containing more than 66,000 names.

Krimmel is buried in the Aubigny Communal Cemetery Extension, Pas de Calais, France. (Grave Reference: III. D. 55.) The cemetery is south of the village of Aubigny-en-Artois and the Cemetery Extension is behind it. Aubigny-en-Artois is approximately 15 kilometres north-west of Arras on the road to St. Pol. After turning into the village from the N.39 on the D.75, the Cemetery lies south on a road leading from the centre of the village. 

*Pro Patria*


----------



## Greymatters

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> ...The Report on Accidental or Self-Inflicted Injuries prepared following Krimmel's injury and death described his injuries as _"Burns, face, head and hands. Fairly severe."_...



A salute to your inquiries, surprising how much information can be had for a person who served and died so long ago.  

Interesting bit on the report (above).  Accidents and self-inflicted injuries were pretty much treated the same?  However, anyone who truly did have an accident would be forever have to explain the implication that their accident might not really have been an 'accident' ...


----------



## Michael OLeary

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Accidents and self-inflicted injuries were pretty much treated the same?



I do not believe the were treated the same, they just had a common form.


----------



## TCBF

- Not that long ago, before it became de rigeur to support the troops, much of the Canadian 'left' viewed all military memorabilia as capitalistic trinkets perpetuating colonialism.   Revolutionary wars and 'progressive' peoples liberation struggles were, of course, untouchable.

- These feelings were apparent in the subordination of the Canadian War Museum and the short shrift given Canadian military history by our educational bureaucracies.

- Those times WILL return with a vengeance, and the goal of 'securing' medals and accoutrements is a step on the way to demilitarizing Canadian families.  Once the medals have been donated and collections siezed from collectors, families will lose the culture perpetuating a military ethos.  Museums will then rotate the collections into storage and replace them with more 'relevant' items.

- Ten years from now there will be demands that the weapons be melted off the National War Memorial, the Northwest Rebellion Monument, the South African War Memorial (these just in Ottawa) etc., because of the 'trauma caused to our children' by seeing them.

- Wait for it...


----------



## Jammer

Ergo...
It falls upon us and those of like mind to lobby, badger,and do what it takes to continue to educate the masses about our history as a nation.
Canada as we all know has a rich and proud military history. Let us continue to peretuate that by doing what we are doing.
Private collections very often fill in the gaps of days that once were. 
Well done to all


----------



## redleafjumper

Here is the letter that I sent:

Dear Mr. Stoffler,

I am more than a little concerned with your comments as reported in the Ottawa Citizen on November 24 regarding those of use who collect medals.  While I recognize by your other published comments that you are a strong supporter of the military and the Canadian soldier I find these comments, though possibly well-intentioned, to be somewhat misguided.  

As a former soldier and a person interested in history I collect these artifacts of our country's heroes for purposes of historical display and to use in education of students. I put on an annual Remembrance display in the college where I teach and that display includes medals so as to bring some humanity to the message.  Most collectors that I know do a tremendous amount of research regarding particular individuals and put together small displays, often including photos, with all of the historical information about those medals and the recipient.  There are often tremendous efforts taken to put collections of medals belonging to individuals back together when they have been separated.

Collecting medals is an important part of preserving and conserving our history.  To outright prevent buying and selling of these medals would in effect remove this ability to make use of these items for the preservation of history.  Medals have value because of the deeds done to obtain them, and it is a sad fact that not all families that inherit medals truly respect and appreciate the significance of these items.  Some people do sell their ancestor's medals to collectors and quite bluntly most collectors treat these items with great if not more respect than they had when they sat unappreciated at the bottom of a shoe box in the basement.  

A blanket banning of the buying or selling of these items is simply unreasonable.

Yours truly,

etc.


----------



## the 48th regulator

BILL C-415 An Act to prohibit the sale of Canadian military and police medals

Hot topic on other forums as well...

http://www.cefresearch.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4082&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

dileas

tess


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> It's an open forum, feel free to send him the link.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Go ahead...you're the guy who's bitching about his position and the Private Members bill. If you're concerned take action....Members of Parliament respond to voters concerns otherwise they risk losing their mandates. If you think his constituents would be upset with his stance then let him know. His riding is Lower Sackville where half the military population of Halifax live and a lot of Veterans as well. This is your issue which you identified first by calling the guy a POS....so do something more constructive than name calling and send him an email or a letter.


----------



## the 48th regulator

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Go ahead...you're the guy who's bitching about his position and the Private Members bill. If you're concerned take action....Members of Parliament respond to voters concerns otherwise they risk losing their mandates. If you think his constituents would be upset with his stance then let him know. His riding is Lower Sackville where half the military population of Halifax live and a lot of Veterans as well. This is your issue which you identified first by calling the guy a POS....so do something more constructive than name calling and send him an email or a letter.



He feels the public airwaves are suitable for his name calling, I returned the favour and voiced my views in a public forum, using my real name.

Sorry if that doesn't meet your standard.

If you feel so strongly that he must be made aware, as I said to you before;

It's an open forum, feel free to send him the link.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/68342/post-640282.html#msg640282

Politicians, Members of other Government groups, Journalists, and many have made an appearance, don't see why he can't.

Didn't realize you are his public affairs spokesman.

dileas

tess


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## armyvern

I find it really ironic that it's being deemed _OK_ for the MP in question to put forth a very public motion which is being tracked by the media, and for him to make ill-advised comments to the media (a VERY public forum) about those collectors ...

Yet, those collectors who choose to bitch publicly (ie here on this site) and correct his misguided thoughts on the matter and on his calling them "scum" ... are being knocked for defending themselves in a public forum (less public mind you than the media outlets this member is using). Yet, they are only doing the same thing that it seems is acceptable for the "esteemed member" to do -- defending themselves publicly against his very public accusations of them as "scumbags."

Too funny. He can knock them publicly -- yet they can't defend themselves publicly?? What a crock.

Pot -- kettle -- black.


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## armyvern

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Go ahead...you're the guy who's bitching about his position and the Private Members bill. If you're concerned take action....Members of Parliament respond to voters concerns otherwise they risk losing their mandates. If you think his constituents would be upset with his stance then let him know. His riding is Lower Sackville where half the military population of Halifax live and a lot of Veterans as well. *This is your issue which you identified first by calling the guy a POS....so do something more constructive than name calling and send him an email or a letter.*



What!!??

Have you overlooked the fact that he publicly deemed them to be the scum of the earth and they have simply defended themselves against those accusations??

How quickly we forget -- or white-wash over that the issue that actually "identified first". The labelling of all collectors as "Scumbags" certainly seems to be an opening shot in my books. Speaking out about the erroneous application of THAT label -- is called defending ones self ... (vice your personal take of them firing the opening salvo).


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## IN HOC SIGNO

Both of you missed my point. My point was if they feel strongly that the MP in question has or is misrepresenting the situation then they should write to him and let him know.
I'm surprised at you Vern, you're the one in another forum who told a guy to stop complaining about poor service at clothing stores and put it in writing to the proper authority...that's what I suggested this person do too....put it in writing to the guy who made the statement. 

I didn't overlook the quote in the newspaper Vern I'm just sceptical of most of what they use as quotes, having been misquoted myself before. If he said it then it wasn't a very good thing to say and maybe if he was asked about it he might like to rephrase or rethink his position.

I'm not the guy's spokesman nor did I ever say I was. I have met the man on several occasions at official functions and found him to be a staunch supporter of the military and veterans. I'm suggesting to you that you make him aware of your displeasure, I doubt he's a subscriber to Army.ca. and therefore I would suggest he's not reading your mind on this one. 
As this isn't my issue and obviously is yours the ball is in your court not mine.


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## armyvern

It was this forum ... another thread.

I told him that besides whining here ... he needed to put it in writing as it would have to be put officially into writing to have another government department fix a _policy and procurement matter and a failure of a contractor to meet it's contract agreement_.

Apples/oranges.


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## IN HOC SIGNO

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> It was this forum ... another thread.
> 
> I told him that besides whining here ... he needed to put it in writing as it would have to be put officially into writing to have another government department fix a _policy and procurement matter and a failure of a contractor to meet it's contract agreement_.
> 
> Apples/oranges.



No it's not. 
We had a guy who was complaining about something and then said he couldn't be bothered to do anything about it. You suggested he write to the appropriate person to point out the deficiency or nothing would get done.
I just suggested the same thing in this thread and provided him with the addresses, links and phone numbers where he could do it. 
Peter Stoffer is proposing a Private members bill which if it is supported will set a government policy that will discriminate against him and his friends, according to him. If he does nothing other than complain about it then nothing will get done.
Same thing.


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## bdog

this are going back to the family anyways
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=ad0d08a1-d3ce-42f0-861e-5a31e5628daa&k=43492


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## the 48th regulator

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Did any of you email him and continue the democratic process or are you all just going to sit back and take the media's word for what he said and go on grumbling in your beer? :





			
				IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Go ahead...you're the guy who's bitching about his position and the Private Members bill. If you're concerned take action....Members of Parliament respond to voters concerns otherwise they risk losing their mandates. If you think his constituents would be upset with his stance then let him know. His riding is Lower Sackville where half the military population of Halifax live and a lot of Veterans as well. This is your issue which you identified first by calling the guy a POS....so do something more constructive than name calling and send him an email or a letter.



So does he represent himself and those that vote for him, or all Canadians?  Do you really understand the democratic process that you are beating your chest about?  By the way I am drinking red wine, not beer tonight.



			
				IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Both of you missed my point. My point was if they feel strongly that the MP in question has or is misrepresenting the situation then they should write to him and let him know.




What point of view was that?  The fact you met him and like him, and don’t feel the same ire I have towards someone insulting me?  You want me to privately contact Mr. Stoffer, who uses such strong words scum in media in describing me, to hide behind PMs and Letters?

You found his contact info, and obvioulsy feel strong with our reaction to his attacks, invite him here yourself.




			
				IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> I'm surprised at you Vern, you're the one in another forum who told a guy to stop complaining about poor service at clothing stores and put it in writing to the proper authority...that's what I suggested this person do too....put it in writing to the guy who made the statement.
> 
> I didn't overlook the quote in the newspaper Vern I'm just sceptical of most of what they use as quotes, having been misquoted myself before. If he said it then it wasn't a very good thing to say and maybe if he was asked about it he might like to rephrase or rethink his position.



Nice, now reverting to personal attacks, what next call her an accociated scum, paid in full member?



			
				IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> I'm not the guy's spokesman nor did I ever say I was. I have met the man on several occasions at official functions and found him to be a staunch supporter of the military and veterans.



Neat, I am both of the type of person he likes to champion, however he felt strongly to use negative words to insult what I like to do in my free time to continue the dedication to my fellow brothers in arms, to preserve their sacrifice to our Country.

You are sympathetic to someone who was elected, to insult me, over my efforts to my country.  Not only in my service, but my dedication to the members who’s items I chose to preserve and research.  To bring to me, and others a human face to a piece of medal attached to some cloth.



			
				IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> I'm suggesting to you that you make him aware of your displeasure, I doubt he's a subscriber to Army.ca. and therefore I would suggest he's not reading your mind on this one.
> As this isn't my issue and obviously is yours the ball is in your court not mine.



I suggest you get off of your pulpit, and stop preaching to the quire.  Do as you suggest, and invite him here yourself.  The ball is in your court, and obviously you do not feel that this is a forum that dignifies the presence of Mr. Stoffer to clarify wha he has been misquoted, considering you have been in that situation, what better place than to guide us “Scum” in the right direction and understand his agenda.

Dileas

Tess


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## armyvern

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> No it's not.
> We had a guy who was complaining about something and then said he couldn't be bothered to do anything about it. You suggested he write to the appropriate person to point out the deficiency or nothing would get done.
> I just suggested the same thing in this thread and provided him with the addresses, links and phone numbers where he could do it.
> Peter Stoffer is proposing a Private members bill which if it is supported will set a government policy that will discriminate against him and his friends, according to him. If he does nothing other than complain about it then nothing will get done.
> Same thing.



No, we had a guy who was, besides complaining, advising others to go outside of CF guidelines and policy due to a failure of the medal mounting contractor to meet the specs of the government contract.

I told him that it was his RESPONSIBILTY to the taxpayers paying that contractor to put it officially in writing so that the contractor could be forced to comply.

Apples/oranges.


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## IN HOC SIGNO

48th.....you are barking up the wrong tree my friend. I never personally attacked anyone and I did not say I agreed with this person's position. I also didn't say he wouldn't dignify this forum. I said he probably isn't a subscriber. As stated I am not a fan or a suppporter of his. I met the man at official military and veteran functions where he spoke passionately about his support for us. 
The way a democracy works is that we elect people to make laws....if we don't like the laws they make we vote them out...if we don't like the laws they are proposing we let them know about it. In a democracy that means writing or protesting or some other nonviolent form of registering ones displeasure
Speaking of personal attacks your allusion to my profession of preaching to the "CHOIR" is an interesting one. I'm not preaching to anyone. I made a suggestion and even provided you with the addresses to do it....by Googling it.
I wish you all the best in your business endeavors.


----------



## the 48th regulator

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> 48th.....you are barking up the wrong tree my friend. I never personally attacked anyone and I did not say I agreed with this person's position. I also didn't say he wouldn't dignify this forum. I said he probably isn't a subscriber. As stated I am not a fan or a suppporter of his. I met the man at official military and veteran functions where he spoke passionately about his support for us.
> The way a democracy works is that we elect people to make laws....if we don't like the laws they make we vote them out...if we don't like the laws they are proposing we let them know about it. In a democracy that means writing or protesting or some other nonviolent form of registering ones displeasure
> Speaking of personal attacks your allusion to my profession of preaching to the "CHOIR" is an interesting one. I'm not preaching to anyone. I made a suggestion and even provided you with the addresses to do it....by Googling it.
> I wish you all the best in your business endeavors.



Open forum.

Can't get any more democratic than that.

Personal attacks, well, I too wish you all the best in _your business endeavors_.

dileas

tess


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## X-mo-1979

Either way you look at it I think we can all agree on one thing.
A few scumbags make a bad name for all collectors.And unfortunately we do not hear stories such as micheals,we only hear of the scams and rip off's.

Not in defence of the NDP member,however I think his intentions were sincere,and was going on the poor reputation that the albeit few collectors make for the rest.

And on another note...how does the NDP get voted into an area with large amounts of military......how?


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## armyvern

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> And on another note...how does the NDP get voted into an area with large amounts of military......how?



Because most military members vote in advance polls in their "home" ridings ... and a heck of a lot of them never switch their riding from where their "hometown" actually is ... to the place where they are posted to.

I live here in NB, yet, since my enrollment I have voted federally in the riding of Sackville-Eastern Shore (Nova Scotia).


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## Roy Harding

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Did any of you email him and continue the democratic process or are you all just going to sit back and take the media's word for what he said and go on grumbling in your beer? :



Yes I did.

Still waiting for the response (which, to be fair, I don't expect for another few days - based upon past correspondence with MPs/MLAs)

In the meantime - I'm still grumbling in my beer.


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## IN HOC SIGNO

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Either way you look at it I think we can all agree on one thing.
> A few scumbags make a bad name for all collectors.And unfortunately we do not hear stories such as micheals,we only hear of the scams and rip off's.
> 
> Not in defence of the NDP member,however I think his intentions were sincere,and was going on the poor reputation that the albeit few collectors make for the rest.
> 
> And on another note...how does the NDP get voted into an area with large amounts of military......how?



Exactly.
Actually in the Navy a lot of NCMs stay in the same place for most of their career and get posted from ship to ship rather than around the country. It's not unusual for kids to grow up in the same spot and not have to move around. There is a lot of Veterans in that riding and they vote there.
My impression is that Stoffer is working for his constituents and is a populist. His positions on Defence and VA are more in line with the Cons than the NDP. I don't live in that riding nor do I support his party, especially given the position of his leader on military matters. Strangely enough the MP for where the Base is situated is Alexa McDonagh a former leader of the NDP. There are not many military who actually live in that riding though.
Both those MPS show up at all the military functions that they are invited to, along with the Mayor and the local MLAs.


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## TN2IC

Okay, I'm a late bloomer on this topic, so please excuse me. But even if Mr Stoffer is NDP, his views are pretty "fair" for the CF. I remember in my Res. days, him visiting the hide, and of course, I was there at the in route. Too bad he didn't give the correct  password.  ;D

My first PW.... a NDPer!


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## TCBF

The Firearms Regisytry 'crats will tell you that you cannot control the disposition of items unless you REGISTER them first.  So, 

We need a National Awards and Decorations Registry!  I recommend Cuidad Mirimichi for the location...

 8)


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## armyvern

Oh my ...

You are going to give them ideas!! NOooooooo ....


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## Greymatters

TCBF said:
			
		

> The Firearms Regisytry 'crats will tell you that you cannot control the disposition of items unless you REGISTER them first.  So, We need a National Awards and Decorations Registry!  I recommend Cuidad Mirimichi for the location...



And look how well THAT turned out.  

Will this Awards and Decorations Registry also fine owners if they dont lock up theur medals properly, or if they transport them without a movement permit?  ;D


----------



## X-mo-1979

As collectors have you ever had "weird" request for medals?I would suspect some impostors etc would be looking to collect medals of today's era (CPSM non art 5,campain star,CD etc).


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## larry Strong

Why would that be cosidered weird?


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## TCBF

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Why would that be cosidered weird?



- Some freaks want to wear medals that were awarded to other people.  That is a violation of the Criminal Code.


----------



## aesop081

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Some freaks want to wear medals that were awarded to other people.  That is a violation of the Criminal Code.



Oh god...i hope we dont have this dicussion again !!!

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33376/post-250767.html#msg250767


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## Michael OLeary

TCBF said:
			
		

> - Some freaks want to wear medals that were awarded to other people.  That is a violation of the Criminal Code.



A common term among some collectors for the type is a Walter Mitty, or "Walt".


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## larry Strong

Understood, Thanks


----------



## 1feral1

First they came for our guns, attacked the bad ones, restricted some prohibited some, and are trying to have all the rest registerered for their next grab. Then they wanted your handguns, prohibited some, now they want to ban them all.

Now they want your medals, and who knows what is next on the agenda.

Can't wait for my POML (Possession Only Medals License), and the $$$ of that. One billion on the gun registry, 200 million on cancer resaerch, and now how much money will be wasted on this venture if it ever comes to fruition.

That MP has issues, and I have some tissues for his issues.

Shakes head.

JAFSOTEC,

Wes


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## Bigrex

I think the whole idea is more about the selling of medals by those who do not have any legal right to them. A thief steals a set of medals and cannot just pawn them, so up on ebay they go. A veteran dies while in a nursing home, but instead of his medals being given to his family, the staff contact a collector. If the veteran or his descendants want to sell them, that is their business but I think anyone profiting off those medals, like from the above examples, should be heavily fined or jailed. So , to me any legislation requiring proof of ownership, or lineage to the medals recipient before selling medals and placing blame on collectors who turn a blind eye when they can't, isn't a bad thing.

As far as Peter Stoffer being for the men and women if the CF and Veterans, he is, he is the ONLY MP that regularly stands up in the house of Commons and demands action on behalf of veterans, from SISIP, to Agent Orange and VIP, so you may not agree with him on his stance on this one issue, but he does have the best interest of all of us who have worn the uniform, past or present.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Bigrex said:
			
		

> I think the whole idea is more about the selling of medals by those who do not have any legal right to them. A thief steals a set of medals and cannot just pawn them, so up on ebay they go. A veteran dies while in a nursing home, but instead of his medals being given to his family, the staff contact a collector. If the veteran or his descendants want to sell them, that is their business but I think anyone profiting off those medals, like from the above examples, should be heavily fined or jailed. So , to me any legislation requiring proof of ownership, or lineage to the medals recipient before selling medals and placing blame on collectors who turn a blind eye when they can't, isn't a bad thing.



I'm curious, how would you propose the ownership or lineage for the many medals that have legally been in collectors' hands for months/years/decades be established?  Why cannot the same rules that deal with the theft and illegal sale of other private property apply to medals as well?


----------



## Greymatters

Bigrex said:
			
		

> As far as Peter Stoffer being for the men and women if the CF and Veterans, he is, he is the ONLY MP that regularly stands up in the house of Commons and demands action on behalf of veterans, from SISIP, to Agent Orange and VIP, so you may not agree with him on his stance on this one issue, but he does have the best interest of all of us who have worn the uniform, past or present.



There's looking out for our best interests and just being stupid.  To me this falls into the category of a stupid idea, regardless of his best intentions.  Its a waste of our tax money for an unnecessary measure, the only result of which would be to make criminals out of legal medal collectors and rive them underground (oh boy, does that line ever sound familiar!).  The only one who wins would the bureaucrats when I pay for some twit to be a member of the board of directors for the program, pay some other twit to be a manager of policy for this program, etc, etc,...   There are so many reasons against this bill, most of which are self-evident, that its pointless to argue abut it.


----------



## Bigrex

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> I'm curious, how would you propose the ownership or lineage for the many medals that have legally been in collectors' hands for months/years/decades be established?  Why cannot the same rules that deal with the theft and illegal sale of other private property apply to medals as well?



Simple really, a grandfather clause, as I'm sure every legit collector has some form of paperwork on current purchases, so if a someone approaches a collector after the bill comes into effect, and they are not the veteran or their family, and that person cannot provide proof of ownership, then no sale and police are notified. And the problem with medals falling under existing laws, is when a veteran passes, their medals are part of their estate, and unless there is family to collect those belonging immediately, a stranger will often take possession of those belonging and sell whatever they can. It isn't stealing, so not illegal, but it is morally wrong, and Stoffer is merely trying to place legality alongside the morality of not selling medals. You can't sell a car, no matter how old or beat up it is without some proof of ownership, so why not provide the same considerations for the medals of our elder soldiers.

Also, anyone trying to sell medals on Ebay is purely looking for a quick buck, and not interested in preserving the memory of the person who earned those medals. It also reminds me of a story I heard last year, of a conman who would go into legions across the country  passing himself off as a disabled veteran, just back from Afghanistan, and he wore medals which either stole or purchased off ebay, and the old vets would but him drinks and give him money for food and lodging, he was eventually arrested, but I don't think there are any laws to prevent people from wearing someone elses medals or lying about being a vet, or even a soldier.


----------



## bdog

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Oh god...i hope we dont have this dicussion again !!!
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33376/post-250767.html#msg250767


 I was wondering about statements of service under 419.(c) my Grandfather passed away in the 1970's at that time he left to my dad a number of documents relating to his serivce with the Lincolnshire Regiment  of the British Army is it legal for me and my dad to own those? (sorry if this goes of topic but I didn't want to open a new one)

As for the topic at hand there is another Catagory of people who may want to optain medals  Those of us who wish to honour member of the family who were fought sometimes the medal may have gone out of the family or gone to another line yet we wish to Honour them. At this time I am trying to track down a 1914 star a British War medal and Victory Medal to honour and have a very real conection to  my great uncle.


----------



## 1feral1

Bigrex said:
			
		

> Also, anyone trying to sell medals on Ebay is purely looking for a quick buck, and not interested in preserving the memory of the person who earned those medals. It also reminds me of a story I heard last year, of a conman who would go into legions across the country  passing himself off as a disabled veteran, just back from Afghanistan, and he wore medals which either stole or purchased off ebay, and the old vets would but him drinks and give him money for food and lodging, he was eventually arrested, but I don't think there are any laws to prevent people from wearing someone elses medals or lying about being a vet, or even a soldier.



If someone wants to sell medals on ebay or at a coin show, its his business, shy of being stolen etc. The dealers know there is a good market for medals to serious collectors, who are willing to pay top $$ even though they may have got them for a song.

As for posing, like the guy we heard about was, replica medals has the same results. Many returned vets wear replicas now to protect and preserve their originals. I still wear my originals (as seen in my avatar).

There is a difference beteween collectors, some cut-throat dealers, and posers.

Posers are scum of the earth, so no need to go there.

We really have no control over what a person sells privately with or without good intentions, and the goods are not stolen. We live in a democracy, not the Stalin years.

Don't be hoodwinked by this Stoffer clown.

Yes, there are laws in Canada and other countries to prevent posers from wearing medals which they have not earned.

Here, posers have been caught outright wearing Viet Nam medals, and have been charged in the past, adn publically humiliated with their names and pics in the paper. Yes followed with a court appearance. Our Korea vets are now in their 70s at least, and our WW2 Vets are well into their 80s and beyond, so not many posers there now.

Australia has it the our criminal code, but allows the medals of family who are now gone, to be worn on the right hand side in respect by surviving family, and only on ANZAC Day and 11 Nov. That is another kettle of fish, and the KEY words are 'right hand breast', as we all know medals are worn on the left side. There is never a problem or abuse here with this, as its part of our culture of rememberance here 'down under'


Regards,

Wes


----------



## Michael OLeary

Bigrex said:
			
		

> Simple really, a grandfather clause, as I'm sure every legit collector has some form of paperwork on current purchases, so if a someone approaches a collector after the bill comes into effect, and they are not the veteran or their family, and that person cannot provide proof of ownership, then no sale and police are notified.



And I suppose you have records of every purchase you’ve ever made?  Everything you’ve picked up at a yard sale, collector’s meet, or acquired in a trade?  Receipts and records kept forever of every store purchase and online transaction? All perfectly documented by you and the seller to prove when and how it came into your possession?   How can you possibly justify the expectation that every “legit collector” would have done this throughout their entire collecting history?

How do you propose compensating collectors for lost value?  These medals are also an investment, in some cases quite a considerable investment.  One day, if all goes well, I hope to see my collection go to the regimental museum.  But, they do have a value as an investment.  God willing, I will never face a family emergency of such a magnitude that I may have to consider liquidating any or all of my collection to mitigate the effects.




			
				Bigrex said:
			
		

> And the problem with medals falling under existing laws, is when a veteran passes, their medals are part of their estate, and unless there is family to collect those belonging immediately, a stranger will often take possession of those belonging and sell whatever they can. It isn't stealing, so not illegal, but it is morally wrong, and Stoffer is merely trying to place legality alongside the morality of not selling medals. You can't sell a car, no matter how old or beat up it is without some proof of ownership, so why not provide the same considerations for the medals of our elder soldiers.



Do you really believe that if someone dies and the family isn’t right there, that some form of “salvage rights” exists for the next passer by?  There are very few things that require transferral of registration for purchases and sales.  Shall we have a special government office where medal sales would then have to be recorded?  

You presume it is “immoral” to sell medals?  Why?  




			
				Bigrex said:
			
		

> Also, anyone trying to sell medals on Ebay is purely looking for a quick buck, and not interested in preserving the memory of the person who earned those medals.



eBay is just an online marketplace, one that reaches a broader range of possible customers than any other option.  Sellers use it because it’s easy, convenient and it works – your presumption that medals plus eBay only equals greed without any of the participants being concerned with the historical value is nonsense.  Regardless of the seller’s intention, which you are painting with far too broad a brush, is it not good if the buyer is acquiring the medal because he or she does believe in preserving the memory?




			
				Bigrex said:
			
		

> It also reminds me of a story I heard last year, of a conman who would go into legions across the country  passing himself off as a disabled veteran, just back from Afghanistan, and he wore medals which either stole or purchased off ebay, and the old vets would but him drinks and give him money for food and lodging, he was eventually arrested, but I don't think there are any laws to prevent people from wearing someone elses medals or lying about being a vet, or even a soldier.



This is a red herring.  As far as laws about wearing unearned medals, I think you need to research that one a little more.

Controlling medal sales has nothing to do with maintaining and enforcing laws and regulations about the illegal wear of medals.  If anything it will make the situation worse, by reducing the awareness and understanding of medals, entitlements and meaning as more and more medals disappear from public view (into a underground economy created by the criminalization of the medal trade or into museums to lie in dusty basements once available display space is filled).


----------



## Bigrex

Well for one thing, any serious collector will have his collection insured, or at least cataloged for insurance purposes, I collect knives and swords and I have pictures and serial numbers of each ( or other identifiable markings), as like you said, they are an investment and people like to protect their investments, so if needed to I could prove that they were my possessions. And selling Medals on Ebay, is disgraceful, IMHO, if you need to or want to sell medals, contact a museum, they will know collectors, or look online, it can't be that hard to find collectors, but by selling them online to an anonymous buyer, you can't say you care about those medals, and I know if someone sold my medals that way, I would be pissed.

The selling of someone else's medal is immoral, it's bad enough to sell something that someone else paid for, but medals have to be earned with the Veterans blood and sweat, and by treating those medals in a disgraceful way is degrading to all Veterans. How would you feel if someone stole your medals and then profited off them by selling them to a collector or online, i have a feeling you would wish the law could do more than just charge him with a misdemeanor crime, or wish there had been a way to prevent the sale, like legislation requiring proof of ownership. As long as things stay the way they are, we will continue to hear stories of medals being stolen, as a way to make a quick buck, but as long as it isn't your medals, you don't care, in fact each of you collectors may have at least one item in your collection that may have been sold under less than legit circumstances, and you would never know, but what would you do if a veteran approached you and said you had purchased his medals that had been stolen or wrongfully sold by a family member. would you return those medals at a loss to you or would you expect the Veteran to pay you.

Either  way, I don't think this will come to fruition, as it is a private member motion, and the Tories have proven that they do not honor the will of the house, when it doesn't suit them, as Peter Stoffer's Veterans First motion was passed last November, with every opposition MP voting yes, while every Conservative voted no, but in spite of it passing, the Tories haven't acted on a single element of that motion to better veterans and our survivors lives, so why would they care about our medals, or what happens to them after we die.

As far as laws about impersonating soldiers and veterans, I merely said I didn't think there were any, not stating a fact, just that I haven't heard of any in effect or enforced.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Bigrex said:
			
		

> And selling Medals on Ebay, is disgraceful, IMHO, if you need to or want to sell medals, contact a museum, they will know collectors, or look online, it can't be that hard to find collectors, but by selling them online to an anonymous buyer, you can't say you care about those medals, and I know if someone sold my medals that way, I would be pissed.



Oh c'mon BigRex, what you are saying is akin to claiming writing an e-mail is an immoral way to send someone a message.  One should put pen to paper and mail it through the post office.

It is just another method to sell items.  You as a collector know full well that one does not keep every single item they sell.  If I were to see an item, which is not part of my particular subject, however I find at a good price, I will purchase it.  I will then use this item to either barter, or sell, so that I may attain the particular item I want.

You collect knives and swords, which are instruments of death.  Sure I see the beauty and craftsmanship of your collection, however they were made for one purpose only; Killing.  You don't see the irony of your statement in that the collecting of medals is immoral?  But I digress, and only want to use this as a sample (I too love subject of knives and swords, so just playing the devil's advocate )

Now if we use this analogy, what would happen if a MP put forth a member's bill prohibiting the sale of Knives or Swords so that we may stop the killing of someone by stabbing?  But you will argue that edged weapons don't kill people do.

Same with our passion;  Just because someone deals in stolen good, or impersonates a veteran does not justify nullifying the passion that we have in collecting, trading, or selling medals.  What would be next banning the sale of cap badges and uniforms?  Articles of war?  When does the line get drawn?

Let me reiterate the Governments current policy, thanks to Reccesoldier's post;



			
				Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> It was enough to make you weep.  You see DH&R's policy with regard to returned medals is to destroy them.  Yep, rip the ribons off and melt them down into slag.  That's the honour they are supposed to receive.



You would rather see this happen?  Where is the honour and respect in that?

dileas

tess


----------



## Bigrex

Let me set the record straight, I have no problem with the collectors themselves, as long as they are doing it legitimately, my biggest issue is the people who sell those medals for a quick buck, treating them on equal or less status as trading cards, especially by those who do not have the right to sell the medals. Personally, I want my medals buried with me, they are my last link to my time in the CF. As a person who always knew he would enter the military, to have my career cut short due to injury, my medals are a part of me that is already dead, and they will stay with me when the rest goes.


----------



## armyvern

Bigrex,

Personally, you can do what you want with your own medals. Why are you so against others making their own personal choices wrt to their own medals then?

What would you have to say though if someone like Mr Stoffer arbitrarily decided that you could not be buried with your medals? That once you pass on -- they revert to Crown property so that their never leaving your family or falling into the 'evil clutches' of some collector is guaranteed?

So you want buried with yours. That's your choice. Others obviously don't want buried with theirs -- that's their choice. Eventually, some family members who've received those medals -- want to part with them -- that's their choice.

Funny that you don't mind speaking out when it's not your own personal choice that the government is interfering with. You paint a mighty wide swatch with that e-bay/collector/quick-buck statement of yours.

BTW, that poser they nabbed last year -- has some threads dedicated to him right on this very site -- I just reviewed them all because your scarey arguement bringing him up made me think -- I certainly didn't recall a single peep about him actually wearing ill-gotten/unearned medals.

Maybe I just missed it, but in reviewing the previous threads regarding this poser on this forum ... I can't seem to find any mention of him wearing medals. It seems that he was usually in civvies -- telling very good (but very untrue) war stories and preying upon the unsuspecting. But I can't find any mention of him doing that with medals he managed to obtain from "scum of the earth collectors" (or ANY collector for that matter).

Another search of this site will also give you the very quote from the criminal code for charges pertaining to those who would impersonate soldiers, either by action (as in the poser aboves case), or by the wearing of a unauthorized uniform.

Yet another search, will reveal the nitty-gritty pertaining to the wearing of honours and awards which were never earned by the wearer. Short? If you personally didn't earn them -- you can't wear them ... it's that simple.


----------



## Reccesoldier

Bigrex said:
			
		

> Let me set the record straight, I have no problem with the collectors themselves, as long as they are doing it legitimately, my biggest issue is the people who sell those medals for a quick buck, treating them on equal or less status as trading cards, especially by those who do not have the right to sell the medals. Personally, I want my medals buried with me, they are my last link to my time in the CF. As a person who always knew he would enter the military, to have my career cut short due to injury, my medals are a part of me that is already dead, and they will stay with me when the rest goes.



And my biggest issue is with another level of bureaucracy and big government ideas screwing with our most basic freedoms.  

If someone steals something then charge them with theft.  

Operating on the premise that "collectors are scum of the earth" and deciding that their transactions are so shady/illegal that they should be restricted is contrary to basic democracy and rule of law.  But then I wouldn't expect anything else from the scary socialists in the NDP.


----------



## Brad Sallows

>Simple really, a grandfather clause, 

Would supporters of Stoffer's idea please stop dressing it up as anything other than a property seizure to suit their own aesthetic preferences?  It doesn't matter how medals were earned: it's not given to you to decide how the recipients, or their assignees, or subsequent owners, may dispose of their property.

I do not collect medals and have no interest in doing so, but the proposed measure is insulting, asinine thievery.


----------



## larry Strong

How would they prove who the medals belong to, since the majority of the medals issued to Canadians are "un-named" as opposed to other nations.


----------



## the 48th regulator

I have to learn when to keep my trap shut....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20071203/ca_pr_on_na/sword_attacks

I am not mocking you Bigrex, just bad karma on my part.

dileas

tess


----------



## Michael OLeary

Published in the Halifax Daily News, Wednesday 7th March 2007

http://www.rusi.ca/ns/Selling%20medals%20isn't%20wrong.pdf



> *Selling medals isn't wrong
> People can do whatever they want with their private property*
> 
> JOHN BOILEAU
> The Daily News
> 
> Military medals - more properly termed medals, orders and decorations - symbolize a number of events. Some -the most common - denote participation in a war, campaign or peacekeeping/peacemaking mission. Others represent long or distinguished service, while still others - the most rare of all - signify battlefield valour.
> 
> Medals on a soldier's chest tell a story - how long that soldier has served, campaigns in which he or she participated and any acts of courage for which the soldier was recognized.
> 
> The Black Cultural Centre's recent quest for the 1914-1919 Victory Medal awarded to Percy Fenton of No. 2 Construction Battalion has brought the issue of selling medals back into the public eye.
> 
> Many - including NDP MP Peter Stoffer - contend that selling military medals should be illegal. Stoffer even introduced a private member's bill in Parliament in 2005 to outlaw such sales.
> 
> Unfortunately, neither Stoffer nor others who believe selling medals should be a criminal act really understand the subject - or the total impracticality of what they suggest.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with selling medals, and such acts should not be illegal.
> 
> Unenforceable
> 
> In the first place, such a law is unenforceable. It would have no legal force outside this country and would do nothing to prevent medal sales internally. Selling certain drugs is also illegal, and law-enforcement agencies have been spectacularly unsuccessful in preventing this.
> 
> There are thousands of medal collectors in this country. Countless medals are bought and sold daily, in full public scrutiny.
> 
> Outlawing medal sales would simply move them to the underground.
> 
> For most of Canada's wars, campaign medals awarded to our service personnel were not Canadian medals, but British ones. Millions of them were given to soldiers across the British Empire/Commonwealth.
> 
> Beginning with the Second World War, war and campaign medals issued to Canadians were no longer engraved with the recipient's name, making it impossible to tell the nationality of the recipient.
> 
> Similarly, UN, NATO, European Union and other organizations' peacekeeping medals awarded to Canadians do not have the recipients' names inscribed. Soldiers around the world wear them, and one cannot be distinguished from the other.
> 
> Another problem is the silly notion that people are profiting from someone else's valour. While I would much rather see profit being made from someone's valour instead of their misery, this belief is misguided.
> 
> Take Fenton's medal, for example. It, like most other medals, was not awarded for valour. It simply indicates that he participated in the First World War.
> 
> More than 5.7 million Victory Medals were issued worldwide. Fenton's service was no greater or no less than the other 351,289 Canadians who received it.
> 
> The bronze Victory Medal was never issued alone, but always with the silver British War Medal. For some reason, Fenton's War Medal was not with his Victory Medal. It likely shared a fate in common with many other war medals.
> 
> Several years ago, when the value of silver exceeded the normal value of a war medal, thousands of them were irretrievably lost - melted down for their metal.
> 
> Possessions
> 
> Another criticism leveled against selling medals is that they rightfully belong in the soldier's family, not with some collector. If I sell or give away any of my possessions - from my house to a book - my descendants no longer have any claim on that item. It legally belongs to whomever I sold or gave it.
> 
> In Fenton's case, at some time either he or a family member started this chain by selling or giving away his Victory Medal - all perfectly legal. That ended his relatives' right to it.
> 
> The cost to the taxpayer of such a law must be considered. Dealers have invested millions of dollars in their stocks of medals. If selling them suddenly became illegal, these individuals would have a rightful claim against the government for reimbursement.
> 
> Additionally, what would dealers and collectors be expected to do with their current holdings? Trace the recipients' families and give them back?
> 
> That is clearly an impossible task.
> 
> Much of our military history would have been irrevocably lost without medal dealers and collectors.
> 
> They have saved thousands of medals from being discarded, traced their provenance and carefully safeguarded them.
> 
> In fact, if it weren't for dealers and collectors, it is unlikely Percy Fenton's medal would ever be close to finding its rightful home in the Black Cultural Centre.
> 
> johnboileau AT eastlink.ca
> John Boileau was awarded five medals during his military career - all for just being there.


----------



## larry Strong

The scum of the earth, are those that break up groupings and sell the individual parts.



Young trooper goes overseas in 1941, marries a Brit girl and is KIA 3 weeks before the end of the war. They come up on E-bay in Ireland. 2nd high bidder lives in Liverpool, highest is a Canadian. Under Mr Sotfers law that little piece of histroy would have been lost forever.


----------



## TCBF

Because they don't want to preserve history - they want to re-write it!

Medals are evil - think the Left:  they see them as trinkets celebrating the glory of our evil Western Civilazation.  They are reminders of foriegn colonial/globalist wars against heroic liberation fronts and proletarian revolutionaries.

Medals held by a collector or family always bring a story.  With the family or collector - that story is often an honourable truth.  Once those medals have been siezed by the state, the truth is replaced by a more 'relevant' protocol and the medals 'stored' in a convenient melted format.

Wait for it.


----------



## Navy_Blue

Well I got to this kinda late.  

Let me first say that Peter Stoffer is a uncommon supporter and loud voice speaking for all things military.  Unfortunately he is in the Taliban.... Oops I mean NDP party   ;D.  I have seen him on TV and at public events countless times and (more than most defence ministers) in support of what we do and regardless of what party he is in, we need it.  It is probably more important in the party he is in.  As far as him labeling all collectors as scum I think its a bit overboard.   Mr Stoffer is miss guided but means well.  I plan to respectfully E mail him and inform him after this post is complete.

My father is an avid collector of all things military and he goes to plowing matches, schools and any where he can get a table to try and share our history.  Its not uncommon for countries with many more years of history to protect their antiques and not allow them to be exported.  Also in many cases those same countries fight and win to have antiques repatriated.  Our war medals should be in the same boat.  It pains me to think any of our Victoria Crosses might have found homes over seas.  Legislation (not allowing export) of this type may be toothless but it might encourage some families to put the effort into finding homes for our heritage that will respect display and share it in this country, including private collectors.


----------



## George Wallace

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> ...........  Legislation (not allowing export) of this type may be toothless but it might encourage some families to put the effort into finding homes for our heritage that will respect display and share it in this country, including private collectors.




There is Legislation.  Canada has signed an agreement with several nations, and passed legsislation in the form of the Cultural Properties Act.


----------



## Navy_Blue

Do our medals fall into such legislation?


----------



## George Wallace

Cultural Property 
Export and Import Act 

*CANADIAN CULTURAL PROPERTY EXPORT CONTROL LIST*

Establishment of Control List 

4. (1) The Governor in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister made after consultation with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, may by order establish a Canadian Cultural Property Export Control List.

Inclusions  

(2) Subject to subsection (3), the Governor in Council may include in the Control List, regardless of their places of origin, any objects or classes of objects hereinafter described in this subsection, the export of which the Governor in Council deems it necessary to control in order to preserve the national heritage in Canada:

(a) objects of any value that are of archaeological, prehistorical, historical, artistic or scientific interest and that have been recovered from the soil of Canada, the territorial sea of Canada or the inland or other internal waters of Canada;

(b) objects that were made by, or objects referred to in paragraph (d) that relate to, the aboriginal peoples of Canada and that have a fair market value in Canada of more than five hundred dollars;

(c) objects of decorative art, hereinafter described in this paragraph, that were made in the territory that is now Canada and are more than one hundred years old:

(i) glassware, ceramics, textiles, woodenware and works in base metals that have a fair market value in Canada of more than five hundred dollars, and

(ii) furniture, sculptured works in wood, works in precious metals and other objects of decorative art that have a fair market value in Canada of more than two thousand dollars;

(d) books, records, documents, photographic positives and negatives, sound recordings, and collections of any of those objects that have a fair market value in Canada of more than five hundred dollars;

(e) drawings, engravings, original prints and water-colours that have a fair market value in Canada of more than one thousand dollars; and

(f) any other objects that have a fair market value in Canada of more than three thousand dollars.

Exclusions 

(3) No object shall be included in the Control List if that object is less than fifty years old or was made by a natural person who is still living.

Deeming provision  

(4) For the purposes of this Act, an object within a class of objects included in the Control List is deemed to be an object included in the Control List.

R.S., 1985, c. C-51, s. 4; 1995, c. 5, s. 25.


----------



## TN2IC

I know this may be an old thread. But I thought it would be good to raise it from the dead for a tad.

Anywho today, I had the chance to talk to Peter Stoffer at one of the levee spots. I ask him into his views about his collectors bill. It seems to me, he does make sense. I agree with that. And only that of the NDP Party. He gave an example stating a few weeks ago, an older veteran sold his medals to a "collector" which then sold it on eBay behind the veterans back.

Peter gave me his idea on what to do with the medals. He said that he seen a school in Yarmouth NS. And in there, one wall is full of shadow boxes with medals and history on these veterans. To educate the kids on what the veterans gave up for us. Very touching idea if I say. I would love to visit it someday.

But one thing that surprised me was how he places the names of the "collector". Today he refer to them as "monsters" to me. Seem a tad biases. But I like to try to keep an open mind.

I was going to ask him his personal view of Afghanistan. Not the NDP view, but his own. *Stir the pot* But I ran out of time and had to get back to work. 


Disclaimer: I'm not a supporter of the NDP... I just felt it was a moment to shoot a question out there.


----------



## Michael OLeary

I am a collector, so I guess that makes me a "monster" in the views of one Member of Parliament.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Hi,

I in line with Mr. O,

I too am a monster.

dileas

tess


----------



## TN2IC

I can understand to be a collector. But to make major profit off somebodies medals? May be I'm not thinking clear. Don't get me wrong guys. I just wanted to add that little part, last post there.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?


----------



## the 48th regulator

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> I can understand to be a collector. But to make major profit off somebodies medals? May be I'm not thinking clear. Don't get me wrong guys. I just wanted to add that little part, last post there.
> 
> Do you understand where I'm coming from?



Please start from here, already been hashed ad nauseum, and no I don't understand....

dileas

tess


----------



## Michael OLeary

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> I can understand to be a collector. But to make major profit off somebodies medals? May be I'm not thinking clear. Don't get me wrong guys. I just wanted to add that little part, last post there.
> 
> Do you understand where I'm coming from?



If the issue is profiteering, why limit it to medals?  Why target the collectors of medals?

Is profiteering on "Grandma's china" more ethical when the purpose is to cheat the original owner?

Are you trying to support that profiteering is unethical, or that medal collecting is?  Peter Stoffer certainly seems to have confused the two issues?


----------



## TN2IC

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> Are you trying to support that profiteering is unethical, or that medal collecting is?  Peter Stoffer certainly seems to have confused the two issues?



It's hard for me to say. I'm more in the dark on it. 50/50 let's say. Peter's case is a tad in the confused zone. This thread does open a lot of doors.
Please do forgive me if you found I was referring to you or 48th regulator as "unethical monsters".  That was not my intentions. 

Edit to add a few words.


----------



## 1feral1

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I in line with Mr. O,
> 
> I too am a monster.
> 
> dileas
> 
> tess



Monster's Inc - AKA Bastards Inc (army.ca chapter)

Yes I too am a collector, a Frankenstein, or should I say Freakenstein.

Yes ,I am in the possession of some medals and commemortive WW1 plaques which do not belong to me, and along with other memoribilia from WW1 to present.

I am a criminal in the eyes of some, right Mr Stoffer?


Wes


----------



## the 48th regulator

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> It's hard for me to say. I'm more in the dark on it. 50/50 let's say. Peter's case is a tad in the confused zone. This thread does open a lot of doors.
> Please do forgive me if you found I was referring to you or 48th regulator as "unethical monsters".  That was not my intentions.
> 
> Edit to add a few words.



But you see the point we are making, by using his strong words and his political savvy he has made a voter out of you.

By using Big scary words like Monster and scum, and giving cute little examples of children being the wee heroes, he has used every tactic to convince people that he is supportive of our Vet's.  Therefore, he appears to actually care, and wins votes.

When in actuality, he does not have a clue what he is fighting for.  Is he going to go through all of the items that the vet has sold, and ensure the other buyers will not  profit from those items?  Is he targetting the reason behind the Vet's motive to selling the medals?  

Why does he not do that?  Because that would take money, and he would have to address that as well.

All propaganda to win him voters.

dileas

tess


----------



## TN2IC

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> It's an open forum, feel free to send him the link.


Done. I told him about this site today, face to face.



> But you see the point we are making, by using his strong words and his political savvy he has made a voter out of you.


He is in my riding. But is doesn't mean I'm a supporter. My views are Conservative. I'm just intrested into Peter's view on the collectors concept. He still won't get my vote.



> By using Big scary words like Monster and scum, and giving cute little examples of children being the wee heroes, he has used every tactic to convince people that he is supportive of our Vet's.



And that is why I find him a tad biases on the issue. 

I'm just rereading the thread here, over and over.
Wait one... I guess.  ;D



Edit to add last quote phrase.


----------



## George Wallace

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> Anywho today, I had the chance to talk to Peter Stoffer at one of the levee spots. I ask him into his views about his collectors bill. It seems to me, he does make sense. I agree with that. And only that of the NDP Party. He gave an example stating a few weeks ago, an older veteran sold his medals to a "collector" which then sold it on eBay behind the veterans back.



So?  The Veteran SOLD his medals.  Done.  Over with.  Transaction complete.  They no longer belong to him.  If he sold his house or car to someone and they sold it in turn for a profit, would he still have the same opinion?  Get real.  A LEGAL transaction took place.  The new owner sold property that they legally owned for a profit.  It happens everyday, in every walk of life.  




			
				Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> Peter gave me his idea on what to do with the medals. He said that he seen a school in Yarmouth NS. And in there, one wall is full of shadow boxes with medals and history on these veterans. To educate the kids on what the veterans gave up for us. Very touching idea if I say. I would love to visit it someday.



Very nice.  I know of some of these displays.  One in fact in an Armouries Mess in Ottawa (Walkley).  The Mess Committee or PMC decided to redo their Mess, and in the process threw out "donated" limited edition prints signed and dated by the artist, numerous plaques, and other mementos into the garbage bin out back.  Some more 'historically' minded members were able to rescue some of these objects and find better homes for them.  Do you think these displays in the school won't face a similar fate in some future date?


----------



## TN2IC

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So?  The Veteran SOLD his medals.  Done.  Over with.  Transaction complete.  They no longer belong to him.  If he sold his house or car to someone and they sold it in turn for a profit, would he still have the same opinion?  Get real.  A LEGAL transaction took place.  The new owner sold property that they legally owned for a profit.  It happens everyday, in every walk of life.



I fully understand your last. It was a "story" that Peter told me.



> Very nice.  I know of some of these displays.  One in fact in an Armouries Mess in Ottawa (Walkley).  The Mess Committee or PMC decided to redo their Mess, and in the process threw out "donated" limited edition prints signed and dated by the artist, numerous plaques, and other mementos into the garbage bin out back.  Some more 'historically' minded members were able to rescue some of these objects and find better homes for them.  Do you think these displays in the school won't face a similar fate in some future date?



Now this is the part that does scare me. That makes an excellent point. What will happen after the display is removed? I sure wonder if Peter Stoffer may come on here and pipe up. That would be intresting.


----------



## Roy Harding

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> I fully understand your last. It was a "story" that Peter told me.
> 
> Now this is the part that does scare me. That makes an excellent point. What will happen after the display is removed? I sure wonder if Peter Stoffer may come on here and pipe up. That would be intresting.



He's _your_ MP - invite him:   	StoffP@parl.gc.ca


----------



## Michael OLeary

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> Now this is the part that does scare me. That makes an excellent point. What will happen after the display is removed? I sure wonder if Peter Stoffer may come on here and pipe up. That would be intresting.



When he does, perhaps he'd like to bring the following information:

1.  How many medals are in the Canadian War Museum's collection?
2.  How many soldiers do they represent?
3.  How many are on public display?
4.  Of those on public display, how many are to valour award winners, and, more importantly, how many are not?
5.  Of those on public display, how many are singles or other medals from broken groups?
6.  Can any member of the public ask to see any of the other medals, and expect to have their request met in a reasonable time frame at no cost to themselves?
7.  Is there currently a publicly accessible list of all the soldiers whose medals are in the Museum's collection?
8.  How many of those soldiers have been researched?


----------



## TN2IC

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> He's _your_ MP - invite him:   	StoffP@parl.gc.ca




I did.  

Watch and shoot guys.. ;D


Michael O`Leary~ You do make good questions there. May be we are some how misinterpreting his concept. It does seem there are a few holes that need to be fill before it goes a head.

This is what I love about milnet.ca! It makes you think.

Edit to add last part.


----------



## 1feral1

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> I sure wonder if Peter Stoffer may come on here and pipe up. That would be intresting.



That will never happen. He is a politican.

The accronym LEG comes to mind  ;D. 

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## TN2IC

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> That will never happen. He is a politician.



Why do you have to say it so bluntly?  ;D


Oh, on the medal story here. Does anyone know where I can find a copy of a U-boat War Badge? Or an Iron Cross? Canadian store prefere.


----------



## 1feral1

Massa, "I's calls 'em as I's sees 'em."

I have little or no faith or hope in ALL politicians, and they fall into the same catagory as lawyers, bankers, and used car salesmen.

EDIT: the above paragraph is now to include ex-wives  ;D

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## TN2IC

Wesley  Down Under said:
			
		

> Massa, "I's calls 'em as I's sees 'em."
> 
> I have little or no faith or hope in ALL politicians, and they fall into the same catagory as lawyers, bankers, and used car salesmen.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes




God love Ya! Amen!   :rofl:


----------



## TN2IC

Well here is an email I got from their office. Still no real reply.



> Thank you for taking the time to contact our office with your recent e-mail message.
> Peter would welcome the opportunity to speak directly with you concerning this matter.
> Please forward your phone number(s) indicating the most convenient time to contact you.
> Thank you in advance.
> Matthew Godwin
> Constituency Assistant
> Peter Stoffer, MP Sackville - Eastern Shore Tele: 902.861.2311
> Toll Free in Nova Scotia: 1.888.701.5557
> Fax: 902.861.4620Stoffp1@parl.gc.ca
> <mailto:Stoffp1@parl.gc.ca>
> CEP 232


----------



## George Wallace

Looks like you were given the "courtesy" of a Form Letter.


----------



## TN2IC

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Looks like you were given the "courtesy" of a Form Letter.




That's what I figure Mr. Wallace. We"ll have to wait one.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> That's what I figure Mr. Wallace. We"ll have to wait one.



That's standard practice for any MP, they get a lot of email. To sift out the spammers and trolls they ask you for a good time to contact you and generally they will get a hold of you to discuss the matter. The first real person will likely be an aide as well. the members are often up in Ottawa and they maintain an office in the riding and one in Ottawa. With Parliament about to resume I would think he's back up there at the moment.


----------



## Bigrex

I can personally attest that Peter Stoffer will call you directly if you give your phone number. I am in his constituency and have talked with him on the phone several times about Veterans issues. People may not like his party, but Peter is genuinely interested in the welfare of everyone who has worn the uniform, past or present. Whether or not he will have the time to come on here and speak directly, remains to be seen.


----------



## Trooper Hale

Just one little thing here. The last medal here http://www.medalsofwar.com/camp4.html is a 2003 Iraq gong that someone is selling. I think thats a crying shame. I feel dead sorry for the bloke to think that he's got to the stage where he would perhaps have to sell that.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Haleyest of Hales! said:
			
		

> Just one little thing here. The last medal here http://www.medalsofwar.com/camp4.html is a 2003 Iraq gong that someone is selling. I think thats a crying shame. *I feel dead sorry for the bloke to think that he's got to the stage where he would perhaps have to sell that.*



I agree, but the conditions that brought him to that decision can range from PTSD related factors all the way to pure and simple greed. If it had been stolen and reported as such, it would have been picked up on the net by now. Without the soldier's input, we have no way of knowing why he sold it. Without that input, we have little choice but to believe that he chose to sell it.  Once he is out of uniform, the medal is his personal property to dispose of as he wishes.

If the medal trade was criminalized in Canada that medal just wouldn't have ended up in this country. The soldier still would have sold it.  The government can't control the sale of illegal guns, who cold possibly think that a law against selling medals would be in any way effective?


----------



## X-mo-1979

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> I agree, but the conditions that brought him to that decision can range from PTSD related factors all the way to pure and simple greed.



Or not wanting to remember,and putting that piece of your life behind you.

My grandfather was overseas for near 4 years during WW2 and came home with no medals uniform anything.Proably in a ditch somewhere.


----------



## 1feral1

Bigrex said:
			
		

> I can personally attest that Peter Stoffer will call you directly if you give your phone number. I am in his constituency and have talked with him on the phone several times about Veterans issues. People may not like his party, but Peter is genuinely interested in the welfare of everyone who has worn the uniform, past or present. Whether or not he will have the time to come on here and speak directly, remains to be seen.



Interested in CF welfare or not, he wants your vote, and either way, he still must tow the party line. The NDP are a national disgrace, and his proposed medals bill is nothing but toilet paper, infringing on our basic rights to sell private property.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Or not wanting to remember,and putting that piece of your life behind you.
> 
> My grandfather was overseas for near 4 years during WW2 and came home with no medals uniform anything.Proably in a ditch somewhere.



I inherited both my Grandfather's WW1 medals. they received them in the mail after the war and they were both in their original boxes, unmounted and in great shape. They never talked about it and never even looked at the medals after they got them....my mother gave them to me after my Dad died and she was trying to downsize. I mounted them and put them in a shadow boxe with their pictures and regimental history. They just wanted to forget in their life times.


----------



## Reccesoldier

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> I inherited both my Grandfather's WW1 medals. they received them in the mail after the war and they were both in their original boxes, unmounted and in great shape. They never talked about it and never even looked at the medals after they got them....my mother gave them to me after my Dad died and she was trying to downsize. I mounted them and put them in a shadow boxe with their pictures and regimental history. They just wanted to forget in their life times.



Ironic isn't it that they spent their lives trying to forget what they wanted us to remember.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Reccesoldier said:
			
		

> Ironic isn't it that they spent their lives trying to forget what they wanted us to remember.



Indeed. they lived through the horrors of trench warfare, mustard gas attacks and huge artillery barrages. They were British Army conscripts; one was a Sapper and the other Infantry.....they were treated as canon fodder by the British aristocratic leadership. they saw a lot of their mates sacrificed in futile "over the top" assaults into withering machine gun fire and brutal artillery barrages...not to mention those who perished of disease in the trenches. I imagine witnessing such senseless slaughter would leave a bitter taste in one's mouth.
I think the slogan of "Lest we Forget" was borne of the sense that they never wanted to see such flagrant waste of human life again.


----------



## Edward Campbell

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Indeed. they lived through the horrors of trench warfare, mustard gas attacks and huge artillery barrages. They were British Army conscripts; one was a Sapper and the other Infantry.....they were treated as canon fodder by the British aristocratic leadership. they saw a lot of their mates sacrificed in futile "over the top" assaults into withering machine gun fire and brutal artillery barrages...not to mention those who perished of disease in the trenches. I imagine witnessing such senseless slaughter would leave a bitter taste in one's mouth.
> I think the slogan of "Lest we Forget" was borne of the sense that they never wanted to see such flagrant waste of human life again.



We're drifing off topic, but:

The phrase "Lest we forget" is from Rudyard Kipling's Recessional



> Recessional
> 
> God of our fathers, known of old--
> Lord of our far-flung battle line
> Beneath whose awful hand we hold
> Dominion over palm and pine--
> Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
> Lest we forget - lest we forget!
> 
> The tumult and the shouting dies;
> The captains and the kings depart:
> Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
> An humble and a contrite heart.
> Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
> Lest we forget - lest we forget!
> 
> Far-called, our navies melt away;
> On dune and headland sinks the fire:
> Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
> Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
> Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
> Lest we forget - lest we forget!
> 
> If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
> Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe--
> Such boasting as the Gentiles use
> Or lesser breeds without the law--
> Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
> Lest we forget - lest we forget!
> 
> For heathen heart that puts her trust
> In reeking tube and iron shard--
> All valiant dust that builds on dust,
> And guarding, calls not Thee to guard--
> For frantic boast and foolish word,
> Thy mercy on Thy people, Lord!
> 
> _Rudyard Kipling_
> 1897 - Composed for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

ER...yes I know the hymn well...and love it. I was referring to the fact that the Great War cenotaphs all seemed to coin this phrase/ quote and of course our Legions too adopted the phrase. I was always told by the old vets that the phrase was particularily meaningful to them because they didn't want people to forget either their comrades or the conditions under which they perished.


----------



## redleafjumper

While this discussion has drifted away from the topic, it might be useful to mention that Kipling's words adorn a great deal of remembrance material.  His son was killed in the First World War while serving with the Irish Guards.  Young Lt. John Kipling's body was never found in his father's lifetime despite an exhaustive search.  Lt. Kipling's body was located in 1992 and he is now buried  in plot VII  D. 2 of ST. MARY'S A.D.S. CEMETERY, HAISNES.  

The senior Kipling was heavily involved in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and he was responsible for many of the standard cenotaph quotations as well as the standard stone altar phrase in the larger cemeteries of "Their Name Liveth for Evermore".  His "Lest We Forget" from the aforementioned poem was quickly adopted as part of the ritual in the Act of Remembrance of the British Empire Ex-Services League  which later became in this country the Royal Canadian Legion.   His epitaphs are also quite touching:

Two Canadian Memorials
1
We giving all gained all.
Neither lament us nor praise.
Only in all things recall,
It is fear, not death that slays. 

2
From little towns in a far land we came,
To save our honour and a world aflame.
By little towns in a far land we sleep;
And trust that world we won for you to keep


It is important to remember, and those many small collections of medals help to do just that.


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> While this discussion has drifted away from the topic, it might be useful to mention that Kipling's words adorn a great deal of remembrance material.  His son was killed in the First World War while serving with the Irish Guards.  Young Lt. John Kipling's body was never found in his father's lifetime despite an exhaustive search.  Lt. Kipling's body was located in 1992 and he is now buried  in plot VII  D. 2 of ST. MARY'S A.D.S. CEMETERY, HAISNES.
> 
> The senior Kipling was heavily involved in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and he was responsible for many of the standard cenotaph quotations as well as the standard stone altar phrase in the larger cemeteries of "Their Name Liveth for Evermore".  His "Lest We Forget" from the aforementioned poem was quickly adopted as part of the ritual in the Act of Remembrance of the British Empire Ex-Services League  which later became in this country the Royal Canadian Legion.   His epitaphs are also quite touching:
> 
> Two Canadian Memorials
> 1
> We giving all gained all.
> Neither lament us nor praise.
> Only in all things recall,
> It is fear, not death that slays.
> 
> 2
> From little towns in a far land we came,
> To save our honour and a world aflame.
> By little towns in a far land we sleep;
> And trust that world we won for you to keep
> 
> 
> It is important to remember, and those many small collections of medals help to do just that.



Thank you this is excellent stuff. I didn't realize Kipling was so involved with the War Graves Commission...this explains a lot.


----------



## TCBF

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> .....they were treated as canon fodder by the British aristocratic leadership. ...



- That's a bit harsh, wot?


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

TCBF said:
			
		

> - That's a bit harsh, wot?



No I don't think so.


----------



## Old Sweat

IHS

Regardless of social status, senior officers of all ranks had to make decisions that caused a terrible toll in human lives and suffering. To suggest that they were not aware of the consequences and did not carry a terible burden is going too far. 

War is a brutal, rotten business. Once engaged, however, one should not pull the punches or look for an exit strategy.


----------



## Curious Boy

This discussion is very enlightening professionally as I live in the military museum world.  I, as a citizen, have a few comments regarding MP Stoffer's bill to limit the sale of medals and decorations.
a] government participation in the legitimate use, sale, donation, destruction or disposal of private property that is harmless to the owner and the community is blatant and intolerable interference.  Invasive breaches in the foundations of democracy are created in the name of ' for the good of all,' which starts with small issues typically voiced as "That bugs me . . . there ought to be a law."
b]the costs of enforcing the unenforceable saps our national economy and moral distracting us from creating a viable future.

As an worker in cultural resource management I have this to say.  Museums today require more than moral support.  They need quality volunteers to participate in the work of preserving and interpreting our history.  Several references in this thread allude to the proverbial, and sometimes ashamedly real, dusty and forgotten areas of museum storage where artefacts and their stories are abandoned.  The Internet opens the way for improved access to collections and a resurrection of these stories that may not be physically interpreted within the confines of a gallery.  Collectors and curators have similar motivations, tools, objectives and audiences.  We both measure the value of an artefact against a criteria which includes its provenance or story.  It has been stated here that the value of the medal(s) are not as important culturally or financially as the interpretation of the stories about them.  As an exhibitor, educator, writer, these stories are what give substance to our museum's mission statements.  Our collections policy requires me to ask specific questions of the donor, and the item to see if the donation is compatible with our mission.  Many people think that museums are there as repositories of whatever they deem to be valuable, an unwittingly forces us to thin our resources to accomadate them.  Every artefact and archival item requires specific storage, handling, exhibiting, transporting , etc., considerations.  These issues are not make work procedures, but proven techniques that balance the best interests of the artefact, the audience, the institution, etc., for perpetuity.  Museum staff and volunteers take their duty as serious as serving members do and aspire to do the right thing for the right reasons.

Back to the medals.  I often encounter people wishing to donate medals, especially in the course of their chore of settling an elders estate.  I've heard the sentiments expressed in this thread, that " dad, or uncle, didn't talk about the war.  I asked him once as a kid and he told me some story, but never anything deep.  We found his medals in his drawer.  I never saw him wear his medals."  I feel for them.  I have come to understand why the vet never communicated more and why they filed it away.  I also know that when they are gone, their contribution lives on in our communities, our society.  This job illuminates the blessing we all enjoy and I am challenged in my task to interpret this heritage to our youth. So, to those donors who say there is no one in the family interested in the medals, I say "try harder!"  For reasonable cost they could assemble a portrait of the vet, some insignia, reseach and write a summary caption and mount it all in a shadow box for display in the family home during Veterans' Week in November, and maybe other holidays, like Canada Day and Thanksgiving.  This achieves several important things.  It shows family leadership.  It demonstrate gratitude to the youth in the family.  It exemplifies the values of Remembrance.  It puts a face to the words 'those who served, those who died' and the symbols found on our memorials.

I am sorry if some find this comment lengthy.  I studied this thread over many months and its themes resonate strongly with me.  As a newbie to this social net I beg your patience.  As my nickname implies, I strive to ask and learn and I can think of few sectors of society to learn from than the examples set by our vets and serving members.  Thanks.


----------



## Blackadder1916

I'll resurrect this thread for this story as it does mention the MP of the topic title and continues the theme of many (out there) who feel that medals shouldn't be sold on the open market contrary to the opinion of many (in here) who feel that collectors often celebrate the history of what these items represent when the family of the recipient of the medal fails to do so or loses track.

*Possible medal sale irks legion * 


> By AMY SMITH Staff Reporter The Chronicle Herald  Sun. Sep 21 - 5:41 AM
> 
> The president of the Waverley legion says there is no way military medals are going to be sold there today.
> 
> A posting on the Internet classified ad site kijiji.ca, called Military Medals for Sale, is promoting the sale of various medals, including Memorial Crosses and a First World War medal given to a black soldier.
> 
> "Remember this Sunday at Waverley Legion Militaria Show from 9 to 1," the ad says.
> 
> But legion president Jim MacLeod said he had no knowledge of such a sale and was going to contact the show’s organizer Saturday night to make sure it doesn’t go ahead.
> 
> "I am going to tell him it’s a no-no," Mr. MacLeod said in a telephone interview Saturday afternoon. "We’ve never had them before. That’s not what we’re there for."
> 
> Mr. MacLeod said he was very disappointed.
> 
> "I don’t see where they should be selling them," he said. "Somebody earned them, and then to find that (someone is) just flogging them all around. . . . There’s guys that don’t care, as long as they get their hands on them."
> 
> The advertised sale of the medals was spotted by Dave Thomson, an online military-medal hunter from St. George, Ont. He said he has been able to return 160 groups of medals to families, museums and other groups over the years, including 52 Memorial Crosses.
> 
> Mr. Thomson said it was "galling" that someone would try to sell medals in a legion and added that he’s had several calls and e-mails from people upset about it.
> 
> "It’s not sitting well with some of your fellow Nova Scotians," he said.
> 
> One of those people is MP Peter Stoffer (Sackville-Eastern Shore), veterans affairs critic for the New Democrats.
> 
> Mr. Stoffer, who has introduced a private member’s bill to ban the sale of military medals, said he thinks those who sell them for profit are "not what I would call the highest form of humanity."
> 
> "Those medals are given to people in act of courage and remembrance, especially for those who never got a change to wear theirs because they died, also (for) service, duty, honour," he said.
> 
> Andrew Moss, the show’s organizer, could not be reached for comment. A woman who answered the telephone at his home said he was travelling and wouldn’t be home until late Saturday.


----------



## Michael OLeary

I just thought I would reopen this thread to share my latest "scum-of-the-earth-profiteering" collecting exploit.

In May 2007, I purchased a single Victory Medal to a soldier of The Royal Canadian Regiment.  Medals to The RCR don't come on the collector's market very often and they are relatively highly sought after.  This leads to minor bidding wars and an expected premium price (although a few other units can sell for more on a regular basis).

The Victory Medal was being sold on eBay by a very well respected Canadian dealer who was known for bringing many Canadian medals back to Canada from auctions in the UK. Victory Medals to "less collectible" (i.e, a better balance between supply and demand) can sell for anywhere in a $40-70 range. The same medal to an RCR soldier can usually be found in the $60-100 range of pricing. Against the competition for the auction, I ended up winning.  With the necessary taxes and shipping included, my costs for that single medal were $133.

And I knew the soldier's British War Medal might still be out there, if it didn't land in a silver smelter's pot in the dirty thirties or during the silver boom of the 70s. when the scrap value of these medals for a while exceeded their market value as collectibles.

And so a single VM entered my collection.  As I did with each such acquisition, I sent away for a complete copy of the soldier's First World War service record from Library and Archives Canada.  34 pages of records were received, at a cost of $18.81

Last week, an RCR British War Medal appeared on e-Bay, for a price ($154.89 Cdn) that was high even when considering that medals to the Regiment often sell at a premium. I'd flagged the auction, but passed it over a few times, thinking "who's going to pay that for a single BWM."  An upper price of $100 for a single BWM to The RCR would have been more reasonable.

After a few days (it was a 30-day listing), I decided to look up the man and, at least, add him to my notes on regimental medals. As soon as I started typing his regimental number I had an odd feeling. Reaching into the file boxes under the desk I found out why it seemed familiar. I'd bought the man's Victory Medal in early 2007.

Well, now I knew who was going to pay well over market value for a single BWM to a late war enlistment. After paying the necessary shipping costs, my credit card was charged $166.21.

And so, another Royal Canadian's widely separated medals are being rejoined, by a collector.  All this, for a cost of $318.02 (so far, well see if I have to pay Duty to get it into Canada from the US). Not bad for a pair of medals that might sell for a maximum of $200, eh?

I'd never make a profit on this pair of medals, even if i decided to sell them.  But the cost is nothing compared to the opportunity to reunite these medals after however many years they have been separated.

A quick check of his service record shows that the soldier "proceeded overseas for service with The RCR" on 30 Oct 1918. He left the Canadian Corps Reinforcement Camp (CCRC) on 8 November and is recorded as joining the unit on 13 Nov 1918. Possibly one of the last men eligible for the Victory Medal in the unit. (His date of service for entering the Theatre of War is given as 30 Oct.)

And so, all this for a man who didn't even get to the front line trenches before the Armistice.  And yet, he too deserves to be remembered and honoured, even if his own family has decided not to do so. As a collector, I have willingly paid for the privilege to do it as a member of his regimental family.


----------



## George Wallace

It really is a shame that someone has broken up a set.  Hopefully, it wasn't someone who figured that they could collect more if they sold parts off piecemeal, not realizing that a complete set would bring in more money.  These are not the acts of a 'true' collector.   

Good work on your part Michael.


----------



## Michael OLeary

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It really is a shame that some nutjob has broken up a set.  Hopefully, it wasn't someone who figured that they could collect more if they sold parts off piecemeal, not realizing that a complete set would bring in more money.
> 
> Good work on your part Michael.



Thanks George.

Broken groups are quite common and not always, perhaps even seldom, originally for nefarious purposes.  Families, in particular, may see a father's or grandfather's medal group as a special (but not necessarily cohesive) group of personal memorabilia.  Breaking up the group by the surviving family members gives a number of children or other relatives a special reminder of the soldier and a keepsake. In such a form they may have greater collective personal value to family members, and the "market value" of the medal group is seldom a factor in such cases.  Once a medal group has been broken in this fashion, the mobility of family members, and differing opinions on the further retention of each medal by successive generations means they may find their way to the market widely dispersed in time and location.

I also recently reunited two medals to another soldier, returning his British War Medal to rest beside his 1914-15 Star.  He's still got two other medals out there somewhere and I believe they all went to family as described above.  The Star was with his brother's medals (and  represented the one First World War medal the brother himself didn't receive). The BWM was accompanied by regimental sports awards.  In each case, they must have been kept by people who understood the significance of these items and their relationships within each small groups of items.

With luck, one day, I'll complete the second brother's set of medals.


----------



## George Wallace

Yes.  I agree that it is not always a nefarious or malicious act, and often done by the family or even the member themself.  I can not fault them for whatever reason that they may do so.  It usually is out of ignorance or desperation or an attempt to give survivors an 'equal' share in those awards.

I was in the frame of mind when posting the previous post, where I was thinking of brokers/dealers/speculators who dealt in memorabilia for pure profit.  I am sorry, that my blanket statement was made to overlook the often innocent actions of members and family.

I am of the opinion that honest collectors, who strive to preserve our military heritage are acting in the interests of us all in bringing these awards together, and preserving them in a fashion that will keep them safe for the future.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> And yet, he too deserves to be remembered and honoured, ....


----------



## The Bread Guy

Here's the last bit of discussion on this one - didn't think I should revive a necropost that old, mods, but feel free to merge if you see fit.

For fair use and research purposes only....

*NDP want sale of war medals outlawed*
The Canadian Press, 30 Apr 09
Article link

OTTAWA - The federal NDP want Ottawa to ban the sale of all war medals, saying the heroics of Canadian soldiers and police officers don't belong on the auction block.

Nova Scotia New Democrat Peter Stoffer, the party's veterans affairs critic, is upset about the pending sale of a Victoria Cross awarded to a First World War soldier.

Robert Shankland was one of three soldiers who all lived on the same street in Winnipeg and who all won Commonwealth's highest decoration for military valour.

The city renamed the street Valour Road.

His medals are expected to be auctioned off privately very soon and Veterans Affairs Minister Greg Thompson has already said that the federal government will not allow them to leave the country.

Stoffer, who has lobbied for 10 years to ban the sale of war medals, says the federal government must go further and simply halt such sales.


----------



## Michael OLeary

No doubt the Government will be all over this issue as soon as they have guns sorted out.    :

I am a collector of medals and badges to my own regiment, in which I have also served for over 25 years. So many of these medals came to the market because they had lost their families, either through the lack of heirs, or through lack of interest. In my opinion, the saving grace is that someone at least decided to see them into the hands of an auctioneer or collector, else so many would be gone forever. If there was broad interest in society for the history, the soldiers and their medals we would see fewer medals on the market, and much stronger groups and methods supporting those who seek to restore medals to the families. For the medals I collect, the soldiers' families may no longer be in the picture, but their regimental family is. I am working to bring their stories back to the Regiment. For now, I am their family. 

This private member's bill seems to crop up annually. It is one man's opinion bolstered up by uninformed emotional support.  I have yet to see any credible (or incredible) plan for how it would be put into effect, without that its best description is "silly".  

If the bill was passed what, exactly, would be the outcome?  What would be the true value to Canada and Canadians once the War Museum has a couple of sea containers full of medals in storage that would never see the light of day again.  How is that a better end result than the status quo?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

If the veteran or their family needs the money, they are not allowed to sell their own goods? Such a nice socialist utopia we would live in, but of course the NDP has never been big on private property rights. How about we support the bill, but the government must buy the medal back at 15% above market value and the money must come from a social program.


----------



## PMedMoe

*The medal detector: Ottawa collector hunts down rare decorations then gives them to museums*
*Article Link*

OTTAWA — People who sell military medals are the “scum of the earth,” says Nova Scotia MP Peter Stoffer.

But Stoffer doesn’t feel that way at all about Andrew Cadzow, a 32-year-old Ottawa “medal detector” who dips deeply into his own modest income to buy medals at auction, then donates them to military museums.

Stoffer, a New Democrat, has been campaigning for a decade to outlaw the sale of military honours. 

“Medals are presented to people who dedicate their lives to the country,” he says. “That’s not currency they have on their chest. I don’t believe they should be turned into money.”

But collectors like Cadzow, who buy medals and give them to museums, “they’re the salt of the earth,” Stoffer says admiringly. “Two thumbs up for that gentleman.”

Since he started acquiring medals a couple of years ago, Cadzow — a freelance audio-visual technician who, among other things, triggers the deafening “goal horn” at Ottawa Senators’ games — has purchased more than three dozen from auction houses and on eBay.

More on link


----------



## George Wallace

Having worked a bit in the Museum field, I wonder if Mr Stoffer has ever made a donation to one of these fine institutions?  If he has, did he read the donation form at all?  The majority of museums are limited in space, both for display and for storage.  As such, and the fact that some donations do not fit into their mandates, the donation form will usually have a clause that the museum can display, store, trade or dispose of the artefact as it see fit.  Usually the trading and disposal of artefacts will be a decision made by the Museum Board of Governors.  Artefacts held by museums will have little significance at times if they have no “history (story behind them)” or their ‘providence’ doesn’t have some significant history.  So, the following may be an example:  If a museum has fifty Canadian Forces Decorations in its collection, it may decide to get rid of some.


----------



## 40below

Once a medal is presented, it is no longer property of the government but it belongs to an individual who may do with it as he/she sees fit, except in rare circumstances where the government either forbids export (VC) or sale (OC) of the decoration. 

As George points out, the storage rooms of even small regimental museums are swimming in common decorations donated by well-meaning families and veterans that have little historical or even regimental interest. Banning the sale of them will only ensure that the only thing families can do if they no longer want them is donate even more of them to a museum that neither wants or needs them or have them melted down.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Is it OK to collect Nazi memorabilia? 



> A row has blown up over an officer at a human rights group that monitors Israel. He is accused of collecting "Nazi memorabilia". But is it unacceptable to collect material from the Third Reich?



OK, let me see if I have this straight from the media presentations on the whole subject.

It's bad to collect medals of Canadian soldiers because it dishonours them.

It's bad to collect German stuff because it might be construed as honouring or admiring them.

Damn, this is confusing.   ???

Guess I'll just sick with being branded "Scum" for collecting Canadian medals, and continue to bring their stories back to the Regiment's knowledge.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Is it OK to collect Nazi memorabilia?
> (....)
> It's bad to collect German stuff because it might be construed as honouring or admiring them.


More specifically, it's bad to collect German stuff because it might suggest you have a bias against Israel in your day job as a human rights monitor/analyst.

On the original thread issue, the MP is out of line with his remarks, painting with a pretty broad brush - maybe there are other trees up which the Member can bark?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Reviving necrothread with yet another try by the MP in question....

"Peter Stoffer to Re-introduce Bill To Restrict Sale of Veterans' Medals"


> The recent auction of a World War II allied veterans’ medals shows why the federal government should step up and restrict the sale of veterans’ medals says Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore), the New Democrat’s Official Opposition Veterans Affairs Critic.
> 
> “I am angered that the medals of a WWII allied veteran, who fought at the Battle of Monte Cassino, have ended up at an auction for sale to the highest bidder,” said Stoffer.  “Veterans’ medals should not be sold for profit at auctions, flea markets, on Ebay, or anywhere else,” said Stoffer. “It really cheapens the significance and meaning of these medals when someone profits from their sale.”
> 
> “These are the medals of our heroes and they should be proudly displayed at someone’s home, at a museum, or legion hall. They should not be displayed or sold for profit. I urge the federal government to act now and restrict the sale of veterans’ medals.”
> 
> Stoffer will re-introduce a bill in the House of Commons that would prohibit the sale of veterans’ and police medals. He noted that a Conservative MP introduced a bill in the last parliamentary session that would protect military medals with cultural significance from leaving the country.
> 
> “I urge the federal government to move quickly to restrict the sale of war medals for financial profit.”


----------



## aesop081

Humm.....'scuse me....Mr Stoffer.....



> “These are the medals of our heroes and they should be proudly displayed at *someone’s home*, at a museum, or legion hall. They should not be displayed or sold for profit. I urge the federal government to act now and restrict the sale of veterans’ medals.”



I am "someone" and i do have a "home" so why should i not be allowed to buy medals at auctions for display in my private "little museum of all things military" i seem to have going on here. I invite people over regularly, they get to see all this stuff...........


----------



## Journeyman

Peter Stoffer -- the Right Honourable One-trick Pony.

Are any veterans or serving members pushing for this, or does it just appeal to some vague nationalist sentiment? For someone not born in Canada, and without a day's military service (that I could find), he's sure become repetitive on this non-issue.


----------



## jollyjacktar

If, his intent is to prevent the overseas purchase of Canadian medal sets in a similar vein as the US ( and I think that is what he wants to accomplish ), I am not necessarily opposed to the idea in principal.  

But, this is a thorny issue as well.  Your or your ancestors medals are of course your property and you should be able to divest yourself of them is you need/want to.  Where the US IIRC want to protect their heritage is the thought of any MOH going out of the country to foreign private ownership.  I would be saddened to see any Canadian VC leave the country for much the same reasons as they are an important part of our military heritage.  If there could be a standard program put in place for the CWM to purchase (if need be) at FMV any medal sets of historical importance were they to come on the market or at least have right of first refusal.  This might be more of what Mr. Stoffer is intending, in principal.


----------



## Journeyman

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> This might be more of what Mr. Stoffer is intending, in principal.


Legislation shouldn't be tabled with a requirement to figure "what he _really_ meant."

If he can't clearly enunciate his thoughts, he really shouldn't be formulating _more_ unnecessary laws for this country, let alone representing his constituents.....but then, the NDP have outshone themselves with this current slate.


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## Michael OLeary

Before this can be discussed as anything other than an emotional issue, there are a few pieces of information I'd like to see made public. For example:

1.  How many medals (ie., single or groups to individual Canadians) are held by the Canadian War Museum and other national museums?

2.  Where are these catalogued and is the information openly available to Canadians that are interested in knowing which pieces of this important cultural heritage are being kept safe for us? (I.e., without requiring special requests for information or guessing who and how to ask.)

2.  How many of these medals are currently on display?

3.  How often will each of the other medals be placed on display for the average Canadian to view them?

4.  How many of these medals have never been on display anywhere, and for which there is no plan to display them publicly?

Let's establish exactly what happens after all the medals are donated to museums or forced into some sort of black market economy to determine if we are somehow suddenly "better off" because of this proposed piece of legislation.


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## a_majoor

On another practical note, if a verteran should decide to leave Canada, does this mean he is not allowed to take his medals with him? How would you prevent someone from disposing of their medals to (say) a foreign museum or collector if they are now residents of the United States or the Dominican Republic, for example?


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## Michael OLeary

Reminiscent of the $7400 Victory medal awarded to Percy Fenton, a sale brokered by the media antics of Dave Thomson (i.e., the self-proclaimed medal detector), another implausible medal deal is being brought to light.

This time, he's trying to get $15,000 for two medals attributed to Regina native Edward Lyman "Hick" Abbott. 


> *Bid to take Reginan's valour off the market
> Ontario man aims to raise $15,000 for war medals*


 STORY

The catch: the rational assessment of value falls far short of $15K. See this thread at the CEF Study Group for a detailed discussion: Another medal rescue. In partucular this post by member mons14:



> All this group really is, is a named single BWM - missing the Victory, Memorial Plaque and Cross. (The MC if of course an unnamed medal). A cost breakdown should look something like this:
> 
> MC - $800 - 1000 CDN
> The Bar - $300 - 350 CDN
> BWM - $500 range CDN
> 
> We can add a $500 - 1000 premium for historic value of the man, and the matter of the Vimy Ridge award.
> 
> I would guess based on above that a realistic market value in auction should have us at approx: 2500 - 2800 CDN - and that's at the very, very high end. (In a real medals auction, like at DNW or otherwise, you would be lucky to get as high as that.)
> 
> However at the end of the day it will come down to how badly someone wants the group...but keep in mind this is really about a single NAMED BWM, missing the rest of the named medals.
> 
> The Victory medal could very well appear on the market a year from now with another MC and Bar....now there's two groups! This kind of thing has happened before.



But these medals (an incomplete group) aren't being auctioned to determine the market value, now Thomson wants to set the value he expects to see a Museum or other group pay.


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## dogger1936

I've been thinking of selling off my small set. fmr yugo, peacekeeper, afgan with multi roto bar, CD, and sacrifice medal. What kind of price could I get for those?

Any place besides ebay anyone suggest?


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## Fishbone Jones

If your talking miniatures, I'd say they were worth the replacement value. Anyone could order the same ones and have the same set for what it cost to purchase them from a vendor.

 :2c:


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## Stoker

Found this on ebay and the member is current serving, I have contacted the member and was informed it was stolen. The MP's have been contacted as this may be a case of stolen property.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CANADIAN-OPERATIONAL-SERVICE-EXPEDITION-MEDAL-to-JONES-HMCS-DONNACONA-/251783912463?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3a9f7d9c0f


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## jollyjacktar

Well, it is Jones' property to sell or give away if he so desires.


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## Stoker

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Well, it is Jones' property to sell or give away if he so desires.



Actually I don't think it is, I believe their is a rule saying you are not allowed to sell it while serving.  He claims it was stolen last year, i'll report it to the MP's and let them deal with it


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## Nfld Sapper

MPRR in the ebay link shows member is release....or am I reading it wrong?


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## Stoker

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> MPRR in the ebay link shows member is release....or am I reading it wrong?



Its an old one, the member is indeed still in.


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## Nfld Sapper

ack


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## Fishbone Jones

Before this turns into another parsing of the regulations thread, let's wait until Chief Stoker comes back with some more detail.

---Staff---


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## Stoker

recceguy said:
			
		

> Before this turns into another parsing of the regulations thread, let's wait until Chief Stoker comes back with some more detail.
> 
> ---Staff---



Hi, I know the member is still in and he has been contacted. The medal was apparently stolen last year. The matter has been reported to the MP's as it could be stolen property. As for the regs I will check at work tomorrow, I would be surprised if you are allowed to sell it while still in.


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## PuckChaser

Odd that it was stolen with the paperwork for the award....


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## George Wallace

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Odd that it was stolen with the paperwork for the award....



Yes indeedie.  No one would go through that much trouble in stealing medals.  Very odd indeed.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Yes indeedie.  No one would go through that much trouble in stealing medals.  Very odd indeed.



Unless it was a "friend" with access....


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## George Wallace

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Unless it was a "friend" with access....



Still looks fishy.  Most would totally ignore any irrelevant 'paperwork' as a MPPR when stealing an object of value.

Interesting to note that whoever 'censored' the documents, failed to censor the CRA date.   >


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## Nfld Sapper

Ribbon seems very worn too... also if member was awarded this medal in 2000-ish why wasn't it court mounted in the last 14 years?


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## Stoker

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Ribbon seems very worn too... also if member was awarded this medal in 2000-ish why wasn't it court mounted in the last 14 years?



The seller replied that a friend gave it him to sell on consignment and the medal came from a flea market. He won't give up the medal unless he has proof, I told him the MP's will be contacting him soonest with the proof. Hopefully the member gets the medal back.


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## larry Strong

The listing is gone so I can't see what was offered. Most collectors will pay a premium for the award docs that go with a set of medals 

Larry


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## Stoker

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> The listing is gone so I can't see what was offered. Most collectors will pay a premium for the award docs that go with a set of medals
> 
> Larry



It was a named OP Service medal awarded a few years ago for OP Caribbe. Before it was taken down, it has a bid of $375


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## larry Strong

Thanks for that. Did it have the award doc as well, or am I misreading things?


Cheers
Larry


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## Tibbson

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> It was a named OP Service medal awarded a few years ago for OP Caribbe. Before it was taken down, it has a bid of $375



Actually, the poster was asking for a starting bid of $375 but at the time it was taken down there was no bids registered.


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## PuckChaser

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Thanks for that. Did it have the award doc as well, or am I misreading things?
> 
> 
> Cheers
> Larry


It had the single sheet substantiation form (not a clerk, no idea what it's called) with all the dates for eligible service, tombstone data, etc.


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## larry Strong

Thanks



Larry


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## Pusser

A few points:

1)  The CF does not issue/award medals from the Canadian Honours system (they all emanate from the Crown and the Chancellery manages that); therefore, the CF has no say on the disposition of an individual's medals.
2)  There is no regulation that says you must accept and/or wear them.  It is up to the recipient.  However, there is a rule that says IF you decide to wear them (in CF uniform), they must be real ones (i.e. not replicas).
3)  The recipient is free to sell them if they want.  I've never seen it in Canada, but I have seen ads for the sale of members of the British forces selling their medals virtually on the day they retired (money is worth more than memories I guess)
4)  Named medals are worth more than unnamed ones.
5)  Complete groups are worth more than the sum of the individual medals (collectors prefer complete groups as they often value the stories that go with them.
6)  Other than those that have been stolen, most medals that end up for sale have been discarded by the heirs of the recipients.  Collectors often actually save medals that otherwise would have disappeared (Google Lord Ashcroft's VC collection at the Imperial War Museum, many of which would never have been seen again if he hadn't purchased them).


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