# This may be sensitive so please inform me if it is



## multihobbist (6 Mar 2011)

Hi, I just wanted to know if the CF reports non-fatal training accidents into the public
I know the Personal Informations are protected but is there a published reference we could look up?

I've witnessed number of training accidents and I'm quite anxious to know what kind of adjustments to the training are being done and why the same accidents repeat.

i.e. people who lose their teeth to the field stripping lmg (i agree it is personal unawareness, but wouldn't a simple adjustment to make sure the soldier is on the side of the gun instead of behind it and lying down when the field strip being done?)

or 64mm mortars vs fingers/hand (again i agree with personal awareness but I think it could be avoided by muscle memory of using only 4 fingers like the older artillery loading drill.)

and repel tower vs tac vest + rucksack with rifle I've seen troops trying standard arms out and back and realizing they can't put their hand on their lower back when they're already 2 feet away from the ground. I modified my drill by lowering the rope to the back of the thigh but it's not standard to my knowledge.

You probably get my point by now.
I would like to know if the CF publish these small/big accidents within the system and adjust for prevention.

Again, I am aware this maybe sensitive please delete the post and PM me if it is sensitive to the CF.


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## Veiledal (6 Mar 2011)

Wouldn't that just be all the CF 98s? I have not yet filled one out yet but would it not be protected A since it has Name Rank Service number therefor making it not accessible to the public

I think your thinking of the 60mm mortar


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## multihobbist (6 Mar 2011)

yes 60mm mortar, not 64, thanks i haven't used one in a while.

Yes I think it would be CF98 and will be protected A
but I just wish to know where I could learn what is being done to prevent the accidents as I stated.

I personally am quite concerned about 16, 17 and 18 year old recruits living the rest of their life with permanent injury just because
he/she was tired and sleep deprieved and and couldn't think straight.

I'm not demanding but I am personally concerned if there is anything being done for prevention.
If yes, where could I see them?


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## medicineman (6 Mar 2011)

Try reading the Safety Digest in the Maple Leaf - there are several things that show up in there.  And many of these things end up with summary investigations, especially if there is lost time as a result.  This would result in a safety issue being pushed through the chain of command.

MM


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## chrisf (6 Mar 2011)

Each CF98 should be accompanied by a DND663.

These are both collected, and information and statistics are collected from such. Changes to training and operational safety are partially based on these statistics.

One of the biggest challenges faced by our safety people is the absurd cultural fear of these forms. The general fear of paperwork.

 If these forms aren't filled out, changes won't be made. From an individual perspective, CF98s are extremely important, to prove injuries happened, in the event compensation is required, a CF98 is some of the most important documentation.

In my "younger" days, I had a supervisor berate me for asking to fill out a CF98. This was following a rather large chunk of out my eye. His exact words were "Oh come on you pussy, you think a form is going to make you feel better?". In retrospect, he was terrified at the thought of asssisting me with the paperwork, and being the easily irritated NCO I am today, my boot would swiftly be inserted into said supervisors rectum for such a reply.

Fill out the paper. Everyone loves to piss and moan about how things don't get done. Solve the problem, and fill out the paper work, it's not that complicated.


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## medicineman (6 Mar 2011)

People would be less afraid of the 663 if it weren't a slightly condensed version of "War and Peace"...and of covering their own arses.

MM


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## chrisf (6 Mar 2011)

Quite true.

It all goes back to the cultural fear of paperwork.

If a 663 is being filled out properly, there shouldn't be any finger pointing, and as such, no need for "CYA" (cover your arse).

If it were "up to me", properly filling out a CF98 and a DND663 would be a module of itself on a PLQ course (including the HOIC).

Filling out of a 663 should (IMHO) be a "push" action from a safety rep after receiving a CF98, with a HOIC qualified individual being designated... really, the supervisors only responsibilty should be filling out the CF98 (which itself is two pages, if you can't manage to fill it out, turn in all your hooks and leaves above corporal).

I've spoken with our higher safety people, and their view on it was, if you don't have  an HOIC qualified individual, designate a "competent" individual to fill out the 663, they'd rather have the 663 and need to review it than not have it at all.


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## medicineman (6 Mar 2011)

When I did my JLC, we actually had a discussion about just that...but no formal module.

MM


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## multihobbist (6 Mar 2011)

So, I understand what DND 663 is for but who fills it out though?
The CoC or the injured member?
I recall filling out a CF98 for an injury and my DND 663 said "the member was given a proper stretching instructions for the physical activity. The member should stretch as instructed to avoid further injury."

I was also very curious when the **** I was given a stretching instructions for a section attack.
I also wondered why the personal statement from a medical staff and a witness at the site disappeared from the file.

Also basically I was given "You will not speak of the incident until the end of the investigation" while my CoC went on and spread a rumour about my injury.


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## ArmyRick (6 Mar 2011)

Multihobbist,

What is the point you are trying to make here?

Seriously? I have 20 years in the CF and I have seen some ugly accidents (on ranges, in training or simpl around garrison). You make it seem like the CF is right out of 'er.

People make mistakes, it happens. We use dangerous kit and do dangerous training at times. Unplanned for casualties will happen time to time. I would see almost all, if not all, of these accidents happen as a result of human error. 

60mm Mortar (and 81mm Mortar), drills are very simple and easy to employ but people forget their drills and do not do them rpoperly.

I have no clue what your talking about in rappelling? I have done it numerous times (helicopters, mountains, tower) and with full kit, weapons and even "mock Casualties" (basic mountain ops. Do the drills properly and you should be good to go.

The CF does follow up on accidents and some times they order investigations such as BOI (board of Inquiry). The aim of these investigations are to determine what happenned and how to avoid a repeat of the same incident.

HOWEVER, when it comes to human error, that is one that each one of us must watch ourselves and our subordinates or fire team partners.

Your profile BTW, please fix it up. At this point you come off as someone with no/minimal expirience and people here will not take you seriously.


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## aesop081 (7 Mar 2011)

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> It all goes back to the cultural fear of paperwork.



On the flip side, i have been in multiple units where this kind of paperwork has not been a problem. My current unit even has a full-time general safety officer and CF98s are routinely filled out as well as 663s. Doing these things are not only encouraged but is indeed "pushed" by the CoC.

As far as publishing accident details in a way that benefits the organization as a whole, the wider CF should take a page from the flight safety program.


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## chrisf (7 Mar 2011)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> On the flip side, i have been in multiple units where this kind of paperwork has not been a problem. My current unit even has a full-time general safety officer and CF98s are routinely filled out as well as 663s. Doing these things are not only encouraged but is indeed "pushed" by the CoC.



Excellent! Development of a safetey culture, and fear of safety related paperwork is an uphill battle, but the top of that hill gets closer every day.

The CF as a whole (in my experience) is fairly good about safety. It's as good, or better than the other federal government department I work for at the moment, who shall remain un-named. But we can aways get better. We just need to get better at demonstrating to the junior NCM level the importance of safety. It's no different then the difficulties the civillian workforce has with building safety culture in new (particularly young) employees.

The thicker my own pers file gets with CF98s, the more I realise the importance of them.


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## multihobbist (7 Mar 2011)

armyrick, my point is, I would like to know what we're doing to prevent some of the common injuries that cause permanent de-figuration to young recruits if it is not a sensitive topic to the CF.

I agree with that everyone makes mistakes but if you do what you're taught properly you wouldn't get hurt.
I do not mean disrespect to you or the CF but i think tiny mistakes that i provided above shouldn't cost a hand, teeth or spinal injury.

I'm not suggesting that the CF is right out of 'er, I wish to know what we're doing for prevention outside my experience which is far less than yours.
I personally had to see a padre to have a better understanding of the system when I was under investigation for an injury.

Also I would like to keep my personal information secure.


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## ammocat (7 Mar 2011)

The CF has numerous safety programs that have various avenues of distributing information with regard to safety policies, new information, etc. In the ammunition world DAER is once again compiling statistics on incidents/accidents involving ammunition and explosives. Incidents/accidents can result in the modification of drills, clarification of information by distribution of messages, etc. DAER also produces Vignettes that identify a fault in training, handling, or lack of user knowledge and provides information on corrective action. Unfortunately these are only available on the DWAN. 

Information and passage of information is the key. I work in a training establishment with 10 permanent staff, all ranks, and just within our building we have a Safety Board with information on the CF98/DND663, numerous safety posters on ammunition, alcohol and drugs, information on WHIMS/Hazmat/PPE. Overall there is a very proactive approach.


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## multihobbist (7 Mar 2011)

okay thank you ammocat and MM, that's all I needed to know.
Just one more thing.
I was told many different things but who so I speak to about the change in regulations and rules in vehicles and equipments?
For example.
I recall being told the MLVW is unfit for ammo/troop transportation and must go under 60kph but I was also told it can be used normally after a torque tube test by the base mechanic and the vehicle passing the test.

Where can I look for those changes?


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## Fishbone Jones (7 Mar 2011)

multihobbist said:
			
		

> okay thank you ammocat and MM, that's all I needed to know.
> Just one more thing.
> I was told many different things but who so I speak to about the change in regulations and rules in vehicles and equipments?
> For example.
> ...



Call MSE Safety or Base Transport. They're the ones that deal with the trucks and what can be done with them. If you want to know maintenence issues, go talk to the mechs.


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## ArmyRick (7 Mar 2011)

Every unit/base/wing etc, etc has Transport reps, ammo reps, safety board etc, etc.  Address your concerns in writing (via memo) if you really want to know the answers. These reps are responsible for keeping update. Also start digging your nose into the CF safety digest.

Once again, listen up and listen good. HUMAN ERROR happens. It happens every where in life, not just the military. How do you suppose sober people get into deadly or injury causing car accidents every day? HUMAN ERROR is almost always the cause.

Yes accidents happen. people get hurt, they lose fingers, they lose toes, they lose eyes and sometimes they lose their life. It takes vigilance on every member's part and proper supervision of all leadership to MINIMIZE accidents. Note the use of the word minimize, it means accidents will still happen.

You claim you were under investigation for an injury to you? Every time I have filled out a CF98 and CF663, I take the time to ask lots of questions and if in doubt, I bring it to my higher for their attention.

All we can do is minimize the injuries and deaths in the CF, we will never totally stop it. Same goes for life in industrial sector, construction, transportation jobs, etc, etc.


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## BDTyre (7 Mar 2011)

Throughout my short career, it has been made very clear to me that any injury should be reported immediately and a CF98 filled out immediately once the form is available.

I received a minor wrist injury on ex and was told that as soon as it happened, I should have alerted range staff and had myself sent to the MIR, as opposed to finishing the serial and reporting to the MIR that night.

Overseas, I was given a very thorough talking to by my Platoon WO because I waited a day to fill out a CF98 following an incident on the range that affected my hearing.

In terms of what effect this might have on training, I can't say. But I do know that in my two cases, I was "anonymously" mentioned soon after the incidents to ensure all troops knew what to do if they experienced injuries.


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## Rifleman62 (7 Mar 2011)

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/83816/post-809669.html#msg809669 

Posted Feb 09. I don't think anything has changed.

Extract from a Bde Risk Management Instruction:

ACCIDENT/INCIDENT INVESTIGATIONS

18.   Commanding Officers shall insure that all accident/incident are investigated and documented using the DND 663 GENERAL SAFETY HAZARDOUS OCCURRENCE INVESTIGATION REPORT (HAZOR). The DND 663 is used to identify recommendations to prevent re-occurrence and to record remedial action taken.

19.   A DND 663 is completed electronically or in hardcopy, at Annex I, for the following:

a.   Accident, (Non-disabling, disabling and fatality); Incident; Contamination; Ergonomic; Exposure; Hazardous Condition; Spill/Release; and Other Types: Vehicle/Equipment Accident (The DND 663 is used to capture the injury and any days lost/restricted workdays) Violent Act (injuries inflicted on purpose by another person, self-inflicted injuries, or attempted suicides) Dangerous Occurrence (a serious accident that resulted in death, fire/explosion, loss of consciousness, multiple injuries, emergency procedure, or involved a pressure vessel or elevating device.)

20.     All incidents of injuries, exposure, or suspected exposure to a toxic substance will be recorded ASAP on a CF 98 REPORT ON INJURIES AND EXPOSURE TO TOXIC SUBSTANCES, at Annex J. The CF 98 is used to report these injuries, and to record evidence that will be useful should the member suffer a disability and an application is made for a pension under the Pension Act.


                                    
CF 98 REPORT OF INJURIES AND EXPOSURE
TO TOXIC SUBSTANCES Template

GENERAL

1.   All incidents of injuries, exposure, or suspected exposure to a toxic substance will be recorded ASAP on a CF 98 REPORT ON INJURIES AND EXPOSURE TO TOXIC SUBSTANCES. The CF 98 is used to report these injuries, and to record evidence that will be useful should the member suffer a disability and an application is made for a pension under the Pension Act.

2.   The form CF 98 is used to permanently record injuries suffered by members of the CF.  While completion is often given lip-service, its importance cannot be overemphasized.  No matter how minor an injury may initially appear, it must be reported. A correctly completed CF 98 supports:
      
   a.   Veterans Affairs Canada in determining entitlement to a disability
         pension under the Pension Act;
       
          b.   determination of entitlement to a disability compensation (Reserve
         Force);
       
        c.   Judge Advocate General in clarifying if there is a claim by or against
         the Crown; or
       
         d.   the provision of useful information for the conduct of any subsequent
         and more detailed investigation if required.

3.   Forms should be completed in detail at the time of injury and whenever possible, must be accompanied by corroborating witness statements.

CLARIFICATION ON THE CF 98 PROCESS

4.    In the event of a workplace/field/authorized sports injury, it is not enough that a supervisor completes the CF 98.  A DND 663 must be completed for all accidents and incidents in accordance with the DND Safety Policy and Program.

RESPONSIBILITY FOR COMPLETION

5.   The injured member’s supervisor shall initiate the completion of the CF 98 when he/she learns about the injury, an exposure or suspected exposure or when a member requests that a CF 98 be completed.

6.   When a member on Temporary Duty is injured the host unit shall complete a
CF 98 and distribute the CF 98 and send an information copy to the parent unit.

7.   The completed CF 98 will be forwarded to the G1, who will advise the Fmn GSO.

                                    
DND 663 GENERAL SAFETY HAZARDOUS OCCURRENCE INVESTIGATION REPORT (HAZOR) Template

GENERAL

1.   Commanding Officers shall insure that all accident/incident are investigated and documented using the DND 663 GENERAL SAFETY HAZARDOUS OCCURRENCE INVESTIGATION REPORT (HAZOR). The DND 663 is used to identify recommendations to prevent re-occurrence and to record remedial action taken.

2.   A DND 663 is completed electronically or in hardcopy for the following:
a.   Accident, (Non-disabling, disabling and fatality); Incident; Contamination; Ergonomic; Exposure; Hazardous Condition; Spill/Release; and Other Types: Vehicle/Equipment Accident (The DND 663 is used to capture the injury and any days lost/restricted workdays) Violent Act (injuries inflicted on purpose by another person, self-inflicted injuries, or attempted suicides) Dangerous Occurrence (a serious accident that resulted in death, fire/explosion, loss of consciousness, multiple injuries, emergency procedure, or involved a pressure vessel or elevating device.)

CLARIFICATION ON THE DND 663 PROCESS

3.    In the event of a workplace/field/authorized sports accident or incident it is not enough that a supervisor completes the CF 98.  A DND 663 must be completed for all accidents and incidents in accordance with the DND Safety Policy and Program.

COMPLETING THE DND 663

4.   The DND 663 form with check boxes with this annex provides reminders for the investigator (Box 1 & 6) of the type and direct causes of the hazardous occurrence. Each numbered box on the form has the panels listed in BOLD print that provide guidance to which panel screen in the HRMS system the information should be entered. Once the information is entered into the HRMS system, the DND 663 can be printed, signed and distributed.

5.   It is important to have all supporting documentation, notes, diagrams, pictures, etc. placed on file with the completed DND 663 form.

RESPONSIBILITY FOR COMPLETION

6.     It is the responsibility of the Supervisor to complete the DND 663 within 14 days of the reported accident or incident.  In the event that the supervisor is unsure or
unaware of the proper procedure for completing the form, they must consult the UGSO for correct completion.

7.   The completed DND will be forwarded to the Fmn GSO.


Note that you can type onto the attached CF 98 PDF and print off copies. It cannot be saved with typed info.


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## gcclarke (19 Mar 2011)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Note that you can type onto the attached CF 98 PDF and print off copies. It cannot be saved with typed info.



Ummmm... huh? Why not. I mean, it's a Protected A form. Why would one be prevented from saving it? I ask because I've got the soft copies of about 348204 kicking around along with the hard copies I'm required to archive.


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## Michael OLeary (19 Mar 2011)

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Ummmm... huh? Why not. I mean, it's a Protected A form. Why would one be prevented from saving it? I ask because I've got the soft copies of about 348204 kicking around along with the hard copies I'm required to archive.



I suspect he's talking about the particular format of the referenced pdf file. It may not allow retention of the inserted data on saving it.


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## chrisf (19 Mar 2011)

There's copies floating around you can save data into... not sure off hand, may be a newer or older format. 

I've got one here somewhere, shall check.


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## chrisf (19 Mar 2011)

Yep, I've got it in Word 97 format. Checked it against the PDF copy I have, looks the same, minus the second page "instructions for filling out".

If anybody wants a copy, let me know.


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## Rifleman62 (19 Mar 2011)

> I suspect he's talking about the particular format of the referenced pdf file. It may not allow retention of the inserted data on saving it.



Correct. Fill it in on line, print it off, but inserted info cannot be saved. Same as many forms such as a Sun Life claim. The forms in my post are available on the DWAN.


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## Rifleman62 (25 Mar 2011)

Attached are the CF 98 and DND 663 that can be typed into. Also attached is the template explaining how to complete.

Note that this is now three years old. Probably still current, but check.

I have an example of a complete Unit/Bde Safety program if anyone needs it. Includes Field Safety Aide Memoire, new member orientation, SPEDT, sample FTX Safety Instruction, etc, etc. Approx 6.5 MB. 

See next post for the DND 663 Aide Memoire for completion.


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## Rifleman62 (25 Mar 2011)

Att is the DND 663 Aide Memoire for completion.

Previous post has the CF 98 and DND 663 "type into"forms.


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## CanadaGirl (28 Aug 2021)

> If it were "up to me", properly filling out a CF98 and a DND663 would be a module of itself on a PLQ course.


Ten years later, it is. I am on a DL PLQ right now, googling for an example of a completed DND663 (because the DLN isn't working properly and the instructional material is missing). It's the very first assignment.


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