# OPFOR weapons



## 421 EME (4 Mar 2009)

Looking for some feedback into if OPFOR on Ex here in Canada should be using weapons other then the C7 family. My reason for asking is we are all so familiar to the the sound of the C7 being fired with blanks that we tend not to react to it very well to it.

 Maybe if we use a different weapon with blanks this will increase the training value for our troops.

Any feedback, good or bad will help.


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## dapaterson (4 Mar 2009)

There are limited holdings of other weapons available for soem trainign activities.

That being said, it is easier to support an exercise when there is less concern about the natures of ammunition being used.  Stocks of non NATO standard ammunition, cartridge or blank, are not held everywhere; we would have to add yet another item to hold at ammo depots.

For CMTC this might be an option; spreadign it out to every base would be a significant increase in cost and complexity for limited return.

My 2c.


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## 421 EME (4 Mar 2009)

OK lets say we bring the FN C1A1 out of storage in small numbers for OPFOR use. We use the C2A1 30rd mags to give it the same capacity as the AK-47 (the weapon of choice by are friends in the sandbox).
 For ammo its just 7.62mm blank, and we have lots of that in the system and when that blank is fired it sounds different then the C7 with blanks.
 The WES system should be able to mount on it.
 The one thing it cant do is automatic fire like the AK-47.


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## dapaterson (4 Mar 2009)

(1) I don't think we bought kit calibrated for the FN C1 when we bought WES.  

(2) I believe we've disposed of the FNs, as maintaining them in preservation was expensive and did not meet any future requirement.

(3)  As a gun plumber, you should know about the FNC1A1 matchstick automatic technique


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## 421 EME (4 Mar 2009)

(1) No we did not buy the WES calibration kit for the FN C1,but that's something that can be worked around. 

(2) There are still small numbers of FN C1's being held by the CF and spare parts for them.

(3) I have never done the matchstick technique on the FN C1 nor would I re comend it to any one. When a weapon is made to work other than what it was made to do, bad things can happen.


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## Danjanou (4 Mar 2009)

What is this matchstick you speak of? Never heard of it. >

A relative and former troopie of mine who has gone on to bigger and better things since I dumped his 17 year old but in a firing position on the Lawfield Corridor with a C2 and a pile of mags and said cover our withdrawal FNG, told me his last pre deployment foreign weapons fam training included the FN.  

I really feel old.


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## chrisf (4 Mar 2009)

Adapting the WES system to the C1 would be no problem. As of right now, any weapon can be programed to be any other weapon, example, you can have a C7 rifleman who's weapon has the effects of a SPG-9 if you want.

That being said, as last spring when I was attached to OPFOR in Wainwright for a Maple Guardian exercise, the weapons situation was thus...

They were using standard Canadian small arms, and they had a variety of soviet weapons which were deactivated (And of course purchased for a ridiculous price, thus is the nature of government suppliers) for use in weapons caches  and such.

At the time, they were looking at purchasing Ak-47 style weapons, however, as they couldn't obtain 7.62 soviet blank, they had to purchase said Ak-47 style weapons chambered for 5.56mm round, if I remember correctly, they were awaiting some sort of certification before purchase.


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## 421 EME (4 Mar 2009)

I cant comment on the matchstick thing, because I dont know how its done.

 The FN C1A1 was taken out of mainstream service with the CF once the C7 came into service and yes a large number where disposed of (this brings a tears to my gun plumbers eye's because it was and still is a great rifle). But there are still some in service with the CF. I still have parts for the FN in my weapons shop and so do many other shops across the forces. We can still order some parts to do repairs. I have all the CFTO's for the FN still to help me with any repairs that I need to do.
 The FN C1A1 was one of the last rifles where weapons techs did real repairs and not just replaced the bad parts. Something goes bad in the C7A2, just replace the parts, something goes bad in the FN you have to hand fit the replacement part to the weapon. Hand fitting parts is a skill that is slowly disappearing in our trade, even my hand fitting skills are out of pratice.


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## dapaterson (4 Mar 2009)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Adapting the WES system to the C1 would be no problem. As of right now, any weapon can be programed to be any other weapon, example, you can have a C7 rifleman who's weapon has the effects of a SPG-9 if you want.



It's not a programming issue, but rather (1) getting clamps and gear to attah the kit to an FN vice a C7; (2) aligning the laser properly; and (3) an FN blank has more kick than a C7 blank (even more kick than a C7 live).



> At the time, they were looking at purchasing Ak-47 style weapons, however, as they couldn't obtain 7.62 soviet blank, they had to purchase said Ak-47 style weapons chambered for 5.56mm round, if I remember correctly, they were awaiting some sort of certification before purchase.



Acquiring firearms for the military is an involved process, to be sure...


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Mar 2009)

I have seen simunition ak47 upper receivers for the C7/C8.  This adds some realism but only in the simunition world.


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## 421 EME (4 Mar 2009)

Now someone correct me if I am wrong, but the WES laser transmitter that is used on the C7, C9 and C6 all have the same clamp on them so as to mount them on the barrel just forward of the front sights on all 3 of these weapons. If that is so, then they should be able to mount it on the barrel of the FN just forward of the front sight also.

YES / NO / KICK TO THE GROIN


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## Greymatters (4 Mar 2009)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> What is this matchstick you speak of? Never heard of it. >



One of the old 'forbidden' topics - everybody was shown how to do it, but you were never supposed to admit doing it...


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## chrisf (4 Mar 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It's not a programming issue, but rather (1) getting clamps and gear to attah the kit to an FN vice a C7; (2) aligning the laser properly; and (3) an FN blank has more kick than a C7 blank (even more kick than a C7 live).



It's not that hard to buy/fabricate new clamps.

Regardless, the process is underway to buy new weapons.


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## 1feral1 (5 Mar 2009)

421 EME said:
			
		

> (1) No we did not buy the WES calibration kit for the FN C1,but that's something that can be worked around.
> 
> (2) There are still small numbers of FN C1's being held by the CF and spare parts for them.
> 
> (3) I have never done the matchstick technique on the FN C1 nor would I re comend it to any one. When a weapon is made to work other than what it was made to do, bad things can happen.



The matchstick/tinfoil ball method is unreliable and dangerous.

There was the C1A1D, and in the final yrs of these wpns in catalogue, they ended up in Army Units.

At days end, the C1A1/L1A1 was a selective fire rifle, with the CF/UK/NZ and Aussies opting out for S and R only. The C1 was easily converted to automatic with C2 parts, hence the C1A1D, originally to be used by Navy. No big deal.

In Australia we use Romanian AKMs (not battlefield PUs). Plenty of legit Eastern Bloc suppliers out there with rifles/LARs c/wBFAs and 7.62mm M43 blanks for trg, etc. Realistic and decent spare parts packages and armourer's tools such as HS gauges and PBG's etc. IMHO the CF should utilise this method of trg. 

EMEIs (CFTOs) are in use for maintainance of this equipment.  A small national fleet of these weapons (say 250 AKMs, and 40 RPKs) for trg use is within ecomomic reason, and easy to maintain, but try telling that to the bean counters, and those that think they know what they are talking about  :nod:.

OWDU


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## dapaterson (5 Mar 2009)

Getting a sm,all training fleet and maintaining it in one location = easy.  Doing the CF thing where we hand out a dozen here, a dozen there, don't provide tech with adequate training, don't provide ammo in the right natures in the right place, and don't keep enough together to provide any good, solid collective training is a waste of resources.

CMTC OPFOR with +/- 300 AK family weapons?  ASU Wx techs can get up to speed, all the ammo in Wx = good idea.

Handing a few over to everyone and his brother because trhey want some look-cool toys to show off? = Usual CF method  (and Not a Good Idea)


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## 1feral1 (5 Mar 2009)

Perhaps these then should be kept at some main trg centres in the east and west, and not issued out to any units who want a quality En force for an exercise.

Call it a Trg Eqpt Pool.

I am not expert in this field, but it sounds easy, and thats how its done here, and it works.

Cheers,

Wes


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## dapaterson (5 Mar 2009)

Oh, I like that concept, and maybe now we'd be ready to do it here... but too often everyone wants the new toys, so no one gets enough to do anything useful.

Besides, where can we find AK PAMs in French?
 >


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## chrisf (11 Mar 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Getting a sm,all training fleet and maintaining it in one location = easy.  Doing the CF thing where we hand out a dozen here, a dozen there, don't provide tech with adequate training, don't provide ammo in the right natures in the right place, and don't keep enough together to provide any good, solid collective training is a waste of resources.
> 
> CMTC OPFOR with +/- 300 AK family weapons?  ASU Wx techs can get up to speed, all the ammo in Wx = good idea.



Ammo shouldn't be a problem, as I said, they were purchasing an AK-47 varient in 5.56mm, with the specific intent of using C79 blank in it.


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## EMEGUY421 (24 Mar 2009)

The Chinese make an AK variant in 5.56MM for export into civilian sales. Shot one, same as the full bore variant.  CMTC should have a stock of these for OPFOR and famil requirements. Some units hold dewat samples for int and trg for deployments, but not all units are lucky. The FNC1A1 would be a good alternative, and the WES kit will work with it, after all, we use it on the C6, no? 7.62MM blanks are in the system, even if we would have to delink them,( don't tell the ammo techs!!!). Food for thought.


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## chrisf (24 Mar 2009)

I think the varient they were looking at was Ukrainian or Polish or somthing to that effect....

OPFOR already has plenty of DEWAT AKs and RPGs, but no firing versions (As of last year at least)


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## 1feral1 (24 Mar 2009)

EMEGUY421 said:
			
		

> The Chinese make an AK variant in 5.56MM for export into civilian sales.



Don't forget they also made them for export sales to client countries, selective fire versions w/spike bayo, and also an AKS version. Nigeria was one of these countries. The rifles had unique threads and a special cap (unlike the usual muzzle brake/muzzle nut) for a grenade launcher.

The PRC did away with the muzzle nuts when they went from machined AK47 style recievers to the stamped AKM style. The only advantage to these were the use of a BFA in those days (post 1975). 

Problems encountered with these 5.56 x 45mm (M193 twist was 1/12in) were severe trigger vibrations, so much it actually hurt when squeezing the trigger. Mods were made in the gas piston, as a channel (length ways) was machined on each side of the pistol head, allowing more gas to escape through the relief holes on the tube assembly. I do not know if this mod was done on the semi only versions. 


Cheers,

Wes


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## NavyShooter (25 Mar 2009)

I'll Check my Norinco 84-S when I get home for those gas piston mods.  It's one of the Semi-Only rifles in 5.56mm.  Alas, I can't shoot it, as all 12(5) rifles are now safe queens.

Oh, and I suppose I could have a peek at my C1A1, or maybe compare it to my L1A1 (Brit) or my L1A1 (Aus) or my 1A1 (Ind) to see what they look like....I just picked up the Lithgow L1A1 last night.  Alas, it has the Canadian Topcover, so it's not fully original (dang) but it's in good shape!

Back to the original point about weapons for OPFOR, I think having a de-centralized approach would be a bad idea.  

Shipping them to all different units across the country would be a nightmare, and supporting them would be a huge issue.  

How many ammo depots would have to get stocks of 7.62x39 ammo?  How many weapons techs would need to get trained on maintaining them?  How long would that take, and who would do the training?

The better solution would be a single set of weapons.

Get a CONEX setup as an armoury for a set of AK/RPK type weapons, and move it to the main training location for the next roto, have an OPFOR cadre move with it, and you have only 1-2 Weapons Techs that'd need to get trained up, and the cadre could the the weapons handling training for the on-site OPFOR groups that would join them from the local units.

Just an idea, but I think a centralized approach would be far better than a de-centralized from the logistical stand-point.  

NS


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## MG34 (26 Mar 2009)

The last plan on this I heard of was the CF was purchasing at least a Coy sized suite of live Non Service Weapons ofr use during high readiness training. The plan as laid out was to purchase a number of live weapons in 7.62x 39mm for use on live fire ranges and as effects on Lvl 4 and up ranges, a number of weapons in 5.56mm for use during high readiness trng, and a number of deactivated weapons for use to simulate insurgent caches for training. No word on how soon or where they would be kept at this time by the purchase is ongoing.


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## Eric_911 (26 Mar 2009)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> I'll Check my Norinco 84-S when I get home for those gas piston mods.  It's one of the Semi-Only rifles in 5.56mm.  Alas, I can't shoot it, as all 12(5) rifles are now safe queens.
> 
> Oh, and I suppose I could have a peek at my C1A1, or maybe compare it to my L1A1 (Brit) or my L1A1 (Aus) or my 1A1 (Ind) to see what they look like....I just picked up the Lithgow L1A1 last night.  Alas, it has the Canadian Topcover, so it's not fully original (dang) but it's in good shape!



Why you gotta be "that guy" NavyShooter?? lol.... 

Yes, you have lots of shiny toys... dont dangle them infront of the poor non-grandfathered, mere-mortals like myself... its just mean. 

Cheers,
Eric


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## dapaterson (26 Mar 2009)

MG34 said:
			
		

> The last plan on this I heard of was the CF was purchasing at least a Coy sized suite of live Non Service Weapons ofr use during high readiness training. The plan as laid out was to purchase a number of live weapons in 7.62x 39mm for use on live fire ranges and as effects on Lvl 4 and up ranges, a number of weapons in 5.56mm for use during high readiness trng, and a number of deactivated weapons for use to simulate insurgent caches for training. No word on how soon or where they would be kept at this time by the purchase is ongoing.



We'll get all the kinks worked out, and have a fully-kitted out Taliban OPFOR sometime after we've left the country.  Probably start year-long Pastun language courses in 2014 or so...


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