# Helmet upgrades ?  MICH / ACH style pads in CAF style kevlar, any one done one?



## pappy (21 Jul 2005)

I know (http://www.militarymorons.com/) MM's site did a review of Oregon Aero replacement BLU MICH style pad upgrade, but just wondering if anyone has done on here?

Most of the time I'm just down the road from these guys, might be able to get some type of group buy going if anyone (enough) are interested.  Looks like they don't have a problem selling one-iezes / two-iezes so I'm problably going to up grade my CG634 pod here in a few weeks.  I've already contacted Ben there to see if thier full system will work as well, thier BLISS system inculdes the same MICH style pads and chinstrap system.  Not cheap for the BLISS system, but the BLU system is less then $100 bucks.  I would imigine anyone wearing a pod for a extended period of time wishes for something more comfy.  Check out thier site to see the details.

http://www.oregonaero.com/p81_2001.html


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## Scoobie Newbie (21 Jul 2005)

I'm sure Kev has.


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## Scoobie Newbie (21 Jul 2005)

Would it work in the CAN helmet though?


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## Infanteer (21 Jul 2005)

It would be nice if it did.


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## MJP (22 Jul 2005)

http://lightfighter.net/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/440107306/m/6371051841/r/1091013841#1091013841


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## Scoobie Newbie (22 Jul 2005)

Well of course I should have never doubted my initial instinct.


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## KevinB (22 Jul 2005)

Actually Andy C was the first to do it here - I worse his for 5 min and had the CC out ordering it.

















I wore a MICH when trying to loot a buddies basement in Ottawa - but he made me give it back - but this the next best thing - and does not cost $500 USD that the MICH/ACH does...


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## KevinB (22 Jul 2005)

If you have a four hole (drilled for the NV bracket) it fits perfectly - if not you need to zapstrap the front headband - Andy's and mine are (mine is a four hole but I zapstrapped it too) the fourhole is easier to wrok with - but the zap only method seems plenty secure


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## Infanteer (22 Jul 2005)

Far out - another thing to add to the kit-slut list....


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## Kal (22 Jul 2005)

How well does it work in conjunction with the gas mask?


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## KevinB (22 Jul 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> How well does it work in conjunction with the gas mask?


 ???

Works well with Peltor eardefenders.  I did not notice any problems with the gasmask, I cant see why it would affect it in anyway...


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## Kal (22 Jul 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Works well with Peltor eardefenders.   I did not notice any problems with the gasmask, I cant see why it would affect it in anyway...



     From the pictures it looked as if the pads are mounted very close to the edge and in some pictures off the 'net they looked even lower.  I was wondering in the gas mask would make too much contact with the low sitting pads and push the mask down or the helmet up.  Thanks for the tips, though.


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## KevinB (22 Jul 2005)

Ah - I did not really figure out your question.

The pads are pretty much level with the previous suspension system.  

Admittedly I wear my gasmask once a year (hut refresher) so...


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## pappy (22 Jul 2005)

Nice job Andy / Kev....
The pads are mounted on velcro and are adjustable to fit different conditions, helmet liner, more ventilation, comm gear, gas mask, etc.

I got into contact with one of the folks at Oregon Aero, only a couple of hour drive from me here in Oregon.  They didn't know too much about this mod, but think it would work fine as Andy and Kev have proved to us already.  The factory boys @ Oregon Areo want to do a mode correctly for this helmet and are looking to purchase a one from the factory.  But I offered to send them mine and have them do the hands-on-touchie-feelie on it.  I'm thinking this might encourge them to offer me a nice discount for the R&D.  Either way it appears to be worth the cash to make it more comfy.  

Kev / Andy, so you guys did the complete BLSS kits - pads and 4-point chinstrap? the BLU kit is just the pads.  The 4-point harness looks nicer then the standard CAF 3-point.
So you liked the MICH huh Kev?  much different fromt he CG634? I've yet to get my hands on one (MICH) so hard to tell from the pics I've seen.

I'll keep everyone up to date on what Oregon Areo has to say.  Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Pappy


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## Scoobie Newbie (22 Jul 2005)

"I worse his for 5 min and had the CC out ordering it."

and you hack on others for spelling. ;D


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## KevinB (23 Jul 2005)

;D Easier to criticise than compliment...


 The MICH/ACH is lighter and a wee bit smaller - yet sits lower than the issue Gallet (CG634?) I just cant justify spending $500 plus USD for a helmet when I am issued one I can make 80% as good with only $120 USD output.  The MICH is also better ballistically...

 AndyC only lurks Army.ca and does not post.

Yes complete BLSS kit 2 days from order to delivery   very impressive.


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Jul 2005)

"I just cant justify spending $500 plus USD for a helmet"

whaaaaaa, I'm losing faith in you.  

If they ever send 2VP anywhere I think I may look into that.


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## pappy (23 Jul 2005)

Thanks Kev / AndyC  

I grew up wearing the old steel pots, and for all you old timers the "really special"  M1957 body armor....  those old fasion Vietnam Era p.o.s.  the ones with the multiple 4"x4" loose plates on a vest body of pre-kelvar.  oh boy those where the days...  So when Uncle Reagan started spending money like a drunken sailor, well compared to Catrer... the Corps started getting the first issue PASGT gear, man we thought that was the cats meow..... now we fast forward to today... 

I "ran across" a CAF pot at a buddies house and a few scotchs later it was mine, lgihter then the USGI PASGT and a lil stronger too.  The MICH well I too would like to own one too but I'll deal with the Canadian and IDF kelvar I've got.  A couple of mods and it will serve me fine.

Kev, being the squaredaway individual you are, I'm sure you've see the IDF "Mitznefet" / Clown hat; floppy helemt cover.  For those that never seen these thier a reversiable mesh type cover, with an elastic band around the opening to attact to you helmet or you can pull down over your head with out a helmet on, you can see though them, but they break up your heads shape very well.  Sort of like CND individual camo screen, but a little denser mesh.  Sort of a bownish green camo pattern on one side and more arid the other.  The IDF also makes a helmet cover out of the same material.  The clown hats are kinda handy....  The human head is very reconigizible and breaking up the shape is a handy habit.  a simple bit of elastic cord and peice of CND Individual Camo screen would allow someone to make thier own.  The CND don't mind you cuting these up do they?

I don't doubt you'll post a pic of yours Kev,  ;D I'm irish, we're a little slow, but I'm starting to get the impression you know pretty much all the tricks.

Semper Fi
Pappy


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## Britney Spears (23 Jul 2005)

> all you old timers the "really special"  M1957 body armor....  those old fasion Vietnam Era p.o.s.  the ones with the multiple 4"x4" loose plates on a vest body of pre-kelvar.  oh boy those where the days...



Are you talking about the same one the Israeli fellows in the first pic are using? Because we're STILL using those....


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## KevinB (23 Jul 2005)

That Vietnam era 'lead weave' vest is out of service.  I think some units that are not entitled (which is another assinine story) to PBA keep them - but.  ???
I did 10years in the old M1 pot helmet - I was so sad I had to exchange my Jump Helmet for the Gallet in '97 (call me a prick I liked have a different helmet than the L@^'s  ;D


pappy -I've seen those pics - but I always wondered why they brought the Swedish Chef on patrol...
 The TW CADPAT Screen is easily altered - the AR CADPAT ones are one time environemntal/operational issue only (and I've been saving mine to sell on EBay   )


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## pappy (23 Jul 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Are you talking about the same one the Israeli fellows in the first pic are using? Because we're STILL using those....



not the same, that one your thinking of is the soft "newer" version M1967 if my memory holds, I believe those where out in like 1967 and up, we had like one of those, the rest of us had the older M1957 versions.  The '57 had multiple overlapping 4"x4"x1/4" hard plates (not like todays hard plates) around bottom, waist area.  The plates where in nylon pouches under the outer cover.  Under these over lapping plates was the soft-ballistic nylon, not sure I'd call it Kelvar, that made up the majority of the vest, upper chest, back etc.  No Velcro, just an metal zipper and snaps.... no collar... the M1967 had a collar, that was a sytlist vest back it's day....

Only the helo crews had the big ass plates that are the grand daddy of todays chest/back hard plates.

25 pounds of crap that didn't stop much more then shrapnel.  We tested a few with pistol ammo, it sort of worked, but no one wanted to test it while wearing it... 5.56mm cut right on through. oh so much fun doing PT it those....

The USMC used them up into the late very early 80's.  Thats when the PASGT (early IDF Clone body armor) first came out first issued to MEU's and grunts.
The USMC has a long history of using old US Army gear long after the Army gives up on it,  Nice to see that tradition is ending or pretty much stopped today.

The IDF still uses the M1967 soft vest, mostly reservists...  not sure why, maybe some sort of cult following, or punishment...


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## pappy (23 Jul 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> pappy -I've seen those pics - but I always wondered why they brought the Swedish Chef on patrol...
> The TW CADPAT Screen is easily altered - the AR CADPAT ones are one time environemntal/operational issue only (and I've been saving mine to sell on EBay    )



Wanna trade two new in the bag TW's for a AR screen?   hahaha I got some of them winter ones too, I hear it snows a bit in Canada...  ;D  j/k I know no member of the CND would dream of selling thier kit on ebay....

lol, chefs hat, my first impression too    ;D seems the folks the IDF spend most of this time shooting at in Lebenon got real good at reconigzing the IDF helmet poking up from behind a rock.


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## COBRA-6 (23 Jul 2005)

Wow, and I thought using the $0.99 US donut-shaped foam pad was high speed...   ;D


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## pappy (19 Aug 2005)

progress pics...

Pads set up for comm gear / headsets


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## pappy (19 Aug 2005)

Standard BLU kit


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## pappy (19 Aug 2005)

BLSS kit


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## Kal (19 Aug 2005)

Pappy, how does the BLSS chin strap compare to the standard one?


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## PhilB (19 Aug 2005)

I have two questions 1) When you say zap strap for attaching the suspension system what exactly do u mean. Im having trouble visualizing how it works. 2) I have a BLU kit in my helmet but they are number 4 pads. I need one size bigger pads. How good is Oregon Aero with exchanges or will I just have to buy the whole new kit


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## MJP (19 Aug 2005)

There is one small zap strap holding in the suspension system in the front IIRC.

I do believe you guys are coming over to 1VP lines around the 28th of Aug, if you want I can show you exactly what it looks like.


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## Bzzliteyr (19 Aug 2005)

Would it be too much to ask if I could see some pictures with this kit ON someone?  I have been drooling over the inside pics and am considering a purchase if I ever go on tour so I'd like to see... thanks.

Bzz


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## pappy (20 Aug 2005)

Kal said:
			
		

> Pappy, how does the BLSS chin strap compare to the standard one?



Kal, I can only describe it from the pics, Oregon Aero is still doing some strength testing to see if the BLSS suspension system will work with the standard 3-screw system the CG has.  I believe the MICH / ACH use 4 screws.

To me it looks like an easyer main connection, rather then the metal prong system the CG uses the BLSS uses a fastex slide-lock buckle.  Look like a pad on the back / neck strap, for fat head guys like me it looks like it would be more comfortable.

The BLSS if I see the detail correctly is a 4-point suspension chin strap system vs. the 3-point one on the CG634.


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## KevinB (20 Aug 2005)

Take a drill make a hole - and mount your NOD plate while your at it...

 Simple  ;D

Bzz - I dont actually wear a helmet it migh crimp my hair...
  I will see if I can get one up when my kit arrives back here.


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## pappy (20 Aug 2005)

KevinB might pose for a pic   haha

OA still has mine so I have no pics other then what they have sent me.   These off there website may help a little on the stap configuration.   lots of good info on thier site.

Shoot them off an email Ben and Tony have been great to deal with.


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## KevinB (25 Aug 2005)

To fit the comtacs I had to alter the left and right side pad position from the postion without (no biggies the pads velcros on so just pop it off and realign it for more space)

Okay so I look like a cracked out weirdo - sue me...


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Aug 2005)

Is that porn star mustache issued?


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## KevinB (25 Aug 2005)

Nothing I have is issued  ;D


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Aug 2005)

How silly of me.  You know I wouldn't be surprised if you brought your own flash bangs etc to your next shin dig.


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## Big Red (25 Aug 2005)

Just installed mine. 'Tis sweet compared to the CF issued suspension.


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## KevinB (25 Aug 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> How silly of me.   You know I wouldn't be surprised if you brought your own flash bangs etc to your next shin dig.



I tried the AF would not let them on the plane...  :'(


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## Scoobie Newbie (25 Aug 2005)

I don't even want to know how you customized your personal vehicle.


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## Good2Golf (25 Aug 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I tried the AF would not let them on the plane...   :'



Kevin, don't worry....I'll let you bring them on my MH-47G when I get it!  ;D

Cheers,
Duey


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## Bzzliteyr (25 Aug 2005)

Wow, quite the "deer in the headlights" look there.. nice rig.  I think I might have to procure myself one.. what was the total cost? Cause I know it can't be expensive seeing as you are strapped for cash.. NOT!  Thanks for the pic.

Bzz


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## KevinB (30 Aug 2005)

IIRC the total cost was $120 USD - plsu shipping.


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## Bzzliteyr (30 Aug 2005)

The big question is:  is it worth it?


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## Bomber (30 Aug 2005)

Read all of the "happy customer" testimonial on their site, it seems worth it.  I have done the pads and think it is time to order the strap now.  The stuff feels like some kind of a memory foam and really takes the shape of your head well.


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## KevinB (30 Aug 2005)

Bomber - SteveS had pics etc taken when out for the shirts - given the nature of wearing helmets more It is a great improvment (even non kit guys are buying it...)

 Secondly - I heard, from other Gallet users, that the styrofoam pad is actually not even supposed to be worn withthe helmet that it was a packing item - and it stops the issue suspension system from doing its job   ???


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## Bomber (31 Aug 2005)

That is definitely worth looking into, packing material, oh man.  When I pulled it our, it seems to be the same foam as it in a bike helmet, and I believe you are supposed to toss your bike helmet after a hard impact, so do I toss my helmet after I heave it into the back of a truck?  Or just replace my packing material?

Hmmm, T-shirts, I'm so glad people finally saw that the only way for a moisture management system to be viable is to have a good base layer.  

Was he taking pictures of the BLU stuff?


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## mover1 (31 Aug 2005)

I can't wait untill someone says its too hot. Or they don't like it.  
What are the repercussions  WRT pensions if you modded you helmet on your own, and it was deemed unnaceptable.
A hemet is considered safety equipment isn't it?

Just a thought.


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## MJP (31 Aug 2005)

They aren't changing the protection capabilities of the helmet itself, thousands of Americans are using them in Iraq and Afghanistan as we speak.  The pads just make it way more comfortable.

Bomber yes Steve took photos of the helmet.


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## Big Red (31 Aug 2005)

The liner upgrade is the cat's ass. With other helmets I have the problem of sweat pouring down my forehead and into my sunglasses which is annoying when you are trying to concentrate on more important things. The padding seems to act as a sweat band and minimizes this happening.  The new straps are also superior to the CF one.


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## Gramps (31 Aug 2005)

Does this helmet come with a bite plate or a neck brace by chance?


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## mover1 (31 Aug 2005)

MJP said:
			
		

> They aren't changing the protection capabilities of the helmet itself, thousands of Americans are using them in Iraq and Afghanistan as we speak.   The pads just make it way more comfortable.
> 
> .



No you are just changing how it would sit on your head.   And how it would deflect or take a glancing blow. Not being a naysayer or anything, I would just be really sure about any repercussions that may come back on any users who are modifying their ballistic protection. 
you know what the DVA is like when it comes to pensions

More questions were raised on a fatal flying accident on why the pilot was sitting on bubble wrap then why the nose wheel was twisted on landing.


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## MJP (31 Aug 2005)

mover1 said:
			
		

> No you are just changing how it would sit on your head.    And how it would deflect or take a glancing blow. Not being a naysayer or anything, I would just be really sure about any repercussions that may come back on any users who are modifying their ballistic protection.



Well you are correct...with the pads in it actually sits properly on the head and therefore is better for protection...but I digress.   But don't take my word for it, I kinda rely on what the guys actually fighting are wearing and saying but what do they know?  ....


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## mover1 (31 Aug 2005)

MJP said:
			
		

> Well you are correct...with the pads in it actually sits properly on the head and therefore is better for protection...but I digress.   But don't take my word for it, I kinda rely on what the guys actually fighting are wearing and saying but what do they know?   ....



That Saddam Hussein attacked america in 911. ;D
Saw that line in a documentary sputed from the mouth of a National Gaurdsmen. Heard a couple of other zingers too.
All I was implying is BEWARE OF THE SAFETY POLICE.


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## Good2Golf (31 Aug 2005)

At the end of the day, we're not talking anything that changes the ballistic protection of the helmet...just increases comfort from the cookie-cutter, lowest bidder suspension rig.  If you guys think the ground kit nazis are bad, you ought to see what the ALSE (avn life sp eqpt) folks will get bent over...folks go bonkers on you trying to sew a Velcro loop & closure fastener patch onto a flight suit...without NOMEX thread!    Oh, the humanity!


 :


This helmet "mod" is exactly the kind of stuff I would OK in ops, and do my best to cover the lads' rears if anything happened.  Like we've seen in other threads, notwithstanding the best intentions of folks in CTS, DSSPM, and other clo/kit orgs, there are somethings (well, many actually...   ) that NDHQ ends up not being able to get for the folks up front.  These kinds of QOWL (qual of work life) things should actually be procured at whatever level has the resources (vice adding extra spaces to the parking lots at HHQs) to help out the front line's lot in life.  Sometimes the CoC does well by the boys, I saw a LCol go head to head with a 2-leaf so that he could get his boys wearing t-shirts only in the cockpit in some hot-arse weather.  Wasn't pretty, but he succeeded in making his case for the "good kind" of risk avoidance...avoid a sit (in this case heat exhaustion through wearing dual-layer fly clo and LPSV, etc... in close to 50c+ wx) in the very first place, such that you don't have to depend on such legislated clo in the even of an actual crash that might realistically happen were the aircrew actually wearing the double(+)-layer of FR clothing.  It's all about  "probability of occurance" vs. "consequence of occurance".  Personally, I would take "let the guys rig their helmets far more comfortably so they don't hate wearing them" rather than "keep a non-optimized rig where guys might be tempted to pop the dome off every once in a while to regain some comfort and potentially get fragged while the chapeau is not on the kopf..."

FWIW,
Duey


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## Bzzliteyr (29 Sep 2005)

Well, I sent them (Oregon Aero) an email and got a response with about 6 pictures.  They mentioned that they are in the process of doing some strength testing with the "3 bolts" configuration, and are trying to decide if it's the best option.  I think I am going to go the distance and order the full kit as I have a Leo C2 drivers course starting next week and I'll be using my helmet pretty often during that.  Only negative feedback I can say right now:  I asked if they offered military discount and got a "At this time we do not have a military discount or bulk order discounts" reply.  

Too bad, I was going to see if we could do a bulk order here on Army.ca, would anyone be interested in ordering a kit?? Maybe if I have enough interest, they might flex a bit?  Send me a message!!

Bzz


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## KevinB (1 Oct 2005)

I'm guessing 99% of their orders are MIL/LE so I cant see why they would offer a discount to their primary customers.


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## Bzzliteyr (1 Oct 2005)

True.. I suppose.. but I am so darn cheap that I have to ask any chance I get.  Pizza Hut gave me 10% today, so I guess it pays sometimes.  I will be ordering my "kit" on monday, and hope that it gets here as quick as someone said earlier in the thread.  I can 't wait to be comfortable.  If only i had ordered before we did our recent ELOC training...

Bzz


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## ZipperHead (1 Oct 2005)

For those that have ordered (or test-drove it, so to speak) this true bit of Gucci-ness ;D, is it possible/feasible to just get the padding (i.e. just order the replacement pads) and put them in the issue helmet/suspension, or do you have to do the full-meal deal???? I went to the lightfighter forum as per the link given at the beginning of the thread, and someone posted that they went with the Canadian chin-strap. 

I'm looking from a cost-saving point of view, and as well as from the point of view that if some anal-retentive type see's the non-issue straps, they are more than likely going to say "sh!t can the piece of gear". But if they can't see the comfy padding, they would be blissfully unaware of the reason for my smile.

Anyway, any input would be appreciated, as I am going to have to fly this one past my RSM (residential sgt major......) for funding clearance, and seeing as how she wears combat boots too, I may be able to convince her to buy one too (the lengths us married guys have to go to.......) so I can get one......

Al


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## Bzzliteyr (1 Oct 2005)

Al, get a hold of me.  I can show you the pics I have that the company sent me, I'll bring them in to work on monday if you want.  I think that with the pad set in, and the old chinstrap being use (the BLU kit as opposed to the BLSS kit) no one would even be able to tell you had the comfiness in there.  However, with the chin strap upgrade, it would be obvious.  

I think it's the better way to go for full comfort, how many people actually scrutinize a chinstrap??  ELOC is the only time we get to be "seen" wearing helmets by mommy and daddy, other than that it's in the field and easily hidden?  I am going to go "full package deal" on it and try it both ways...wish me luck.

See you at work monday
Bzz


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## KevinB (2 Oct 2005)

If you want you can use the CF suspension and chin strap -- a friend of mine in the US mil uses one that way (He's a Col so he can...) as he had to turn in his MICH when he left SOCOM.  Someone   acquired him a CF helmet (from the Soldier Shop in Calgary) and he modded it - Dave was the first to do so AFAIK, then Cass for his Military Moron Site.

Al you still in Strat land or are you in Gag?

 If your Edmonton local - I am sure some can show you theirs -- if you in Gagetown - sorry.


Secondly CTS I believe is interested in this setup - just consider it a field trial if others ask... (I've bsed my career on the theory "its easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission..." - of course look where its got me  ;D )


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## ZipperHead (2 Oct 2005)

Kevin, I'm still stuck in Gagtown, but should hopefully (knock on wood) be out in Edmonton next year. 

I'm glad to hear that CTS is looking at alternatives, particularly ones that are already in field use, and ones that guys are willing to fork out their own money for (which is almost always a good indicator).

I'm just wishing I had heard of this rig 2 years ago (or even longer), as I was wearing a helmet a fair bit while teaching on tactics courses. I'm a carpet commando now, but it will prove useful when I get back to the Regt and get back to field ops and overseas. The current suspension system gives me a headache..... and even if/when CTS procures it, I will probably be retired, so no point in waiting for Uncle Paul to provide for me.....

Al


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## Bzzliteyr (4 Oct 2005)

Question for those that have purchased a kit:  how much did you pay for duty?? Or brokerage fees?

Bzz


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## KevinB (4 Oct 2005)

Zero for me - they shipped it to the base.


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## Bzzliteyr (14 Oct 2005)

I am sure Allan will be posting soon, but let me stea a little of his thunder... We got our kits today.. I bought the full meal deal (BLSS) while he bought the BLU kit.   I have just finished installing it into my helmet, to make up for the missing front screw I simply used three small tie wraps to hold the front plastic band together (pics to follow).   Once I positioned the pads and put the helmet on my head, all I had to say was "WOW!!!"   I find the chin strap fits a little off center, but apart from that, the comfort is incredible.   The pads squeeze ever so lightly on my head and make the helmet snug.   I have been wearing my crew helmet for the last two days (instructing tank driving) and I am looking forward to try this out on Monday!   I will be taking comparison pics with the one Kev posted earlier in the thread, hopefully Allan will too!

Bzz
Edit: pictures!


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## ZipperHead (14 Oct 2005)

Since Bzz beat me to the punch (I have 3 kids and I'm stupid enough to bring work home with me, I am just know settling down to do "fun" stuff (at 2215hrs)), I will weigh in with my initial view.

After taking my helmet apart (to remove issue suspension system) and cleaning it (to aid in sticky sided Velcro to actually adhere), I did a "dry" run to try out the fit/comfort. It seems very comfy on first impression, and I will be wearing it on Tuesday for a ruck-march, so I will be able to give a more thorough review then.

One issue that I MUST mention is the cost: it ain't cheap, brutha!!! Just for the pads (I bought the lesser version, as I am content with issue chin-strap, and also concerned with fashion-police, err, people who notice when things kit-wise are amiss (WO's, SSM's, etc)) it came to well over $100 Cdn (I haven't totalled the damage done to my Visa yet (Bzz and I combined our order to save on shipping costs), but it's up there. One of the costs that kind of burned my ass was the fact that the CCRA (customs) people charged us for GST, and Canada Post charges $8 for "handling priority courier" parcels. Those two things totalled $45.80. 

I'm sure if I were to live with my helmet on, like the fellas overseas do, I would complain less about the price, and I'm just wishing that I had this riggin's 2 years ago when I started teaching tactics courses and I wore a helmet 10 - 14 hrs a day, 5 days a week for 5 week stints (3 or 4 courses per year). Oh well, it won't go bad in the next year while I sit in my comfy chair, playing computer games for a living (one of my new jobs is to evaluate existing computer games for use in instruction (tactics, situational awareness, etc)..... life is rough  8)

Al


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## UberCree (30 Oct 2005)

How do you secure the helmet cover or is it a non issue.  I am also wondering the exact placement of the fourth hole if I drill one.


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## Bzzliteyr (31 Oct 2005)

I had no need to put the fourth hole in.. so I will wait until I have to.  As for the cover, I simply slid it in after the suspension was put in.


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## Grunt (1 Nov 2005)

Aww man now I have a new piece of kit I have to have lol 8)


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## ZipperHead (1 Nov 2005)

Just a quick testimonial for the pads, as I did the 13km the other day: they are very comfy, and easy (due to the velcro system) to move around to get the "right" fit. They do get fairly hard in the cold, but soften up pretty quick to conform to yer pumpkin. I don't think I'd want to be putting this thing on after it sat outside in -40 conditions after sweating like a pig the day before, but seeing as they come out super-easy, keeping them warm (i.e inside tent/building/inside sleeping bag (after drying them out, of course)) etc) shouldn't be a problem. It would probably only take one occasion of forgetfullness to hammer the point home.

Anyway, for the potential "kit whore", this is definitely something to think about, especially if you wear your helmet a lot (i.e overseas).

Al


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## PhilB (20 Nov 2005)

Hi, just a couple questions. First off, I have the BLU kit in my helmet currently, however the pads are slightly to small, i.e. the helmet is a lil to big. A am considering buying one size larger pads, however I am also considering the chin straps. So, background over 2 questions:
1) Does having the Oregon Aero chinstrap add any size to the helmet, does it make it smaller than with just the pads in?
2) Just to clarify the install of the chinstrap, three of the holes on the chinstrap line up with the three pre drilled holes on the helmet. The fourth hole, is just attached with zap straps? Is this all correct?

Thanks for the help. Also if there is anyone that is in Edmonton that would'nt mind showing me their helmet with the chinstrap setup maybe we can set something up? Im sure theres a beer in it for you, if so pm me. Thanks guys


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## danny1222 (20 Nov 2005)

philB:    i ordered the BLSS kit and have not installed the chinstrap.  i have just used the pads because I'm afraid of the fashion police.  if you want to try out the chin strap or buy it then PM me and we can set something up,  as i live in Edmonton.


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## KevinB (20 Nov 2005)

Phil -- you move the pads up and down to create a better fit -- to align with my Peltors, Big Red gave me some pointers and we angled the pads.  -- Add in you will at least have a PRR headset overseas...


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## PhilB (20 Nov 2005)

The main issue is that is sits to low on my head, id like the helmet to sit about half an inch higher


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## ZipperHead (20 Nov 2005)

PhilB said:
			
		

> The main issue is that is sits to low on my head, id like the helmet to sit about half an inch higher



Get promoted: it makes your head swell-up!!!!

Seriously though, I think that you may have to play with the pads, and if that doesn't work, you may have to order the thicker pads from Aero, assuming you got the thinner ones. If that doesn't rub you the right way (i.e you don't want to spend any more money, and personally, I wouldn't blame you as it is already a significant amount of cabbage that you have put out), I would think about building up the areas that you are going to place the velcro with some type of tape (gun tape?) or a spacer type of thing (gasket material, maybe). I would make it considerably wider than the velcro, for stability reasons. 

Let me know how you make out.

Al


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## KevinB (20 Nov 2005)

How low is too low -- can you see?

 By adjusting my pads - I have easily a 1/2" degree in fit up and down...


Failing that by some thin foam and put it in the helmet first velco to both sides and you have a removeable spacer...


OR go to a unit that allows you to grow hockey hair


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## pappy (1 Dec 2005)

I have been using mine for a lil while, wow... so much nicer then the older kevlar suspensions, lets not even bring up the old steel pots....

Oregon Aero treated me great, I sent them my helmet, they did some testing, and sent it back with a kit installed... free of charge.  Can't beat that.
They installed a more prototype universial style chin strap, I think I'll order up the standard one that comes with the BLSS kit.  The prototype is a three point mouning system but still a four-point stap.  Rear two straps mount into a mounting peice that attaches with only one screw.  Still works with the standard CDN chin strap system.

Oh so much more comfy... hell I'm planing on buying a spare standard BLSS, might as well since this first one was free


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## Farmboy (18 Feb 2006)

We are now stocking the Oregon Aero  BLSS kits    ;D


http://www.oneshottactical.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=oneshot&Product_Code=PW-OABLSS&Category_Code=PW


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## Bzzliteyr (19 Feb 2006)

Farmboy.. I am heading to the field this week, but if you want I can get you some "real life" pictures of the system installed on a CDN helmet...


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## Farmboy (19 Feb 2006)

Hey that would be great!

 They can be sent to info@oneshottactical.com

I am still trying to get a photo page up on my site for stuff like this!


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## Farmboy (20 Feb 2006)

OH MY GOD!!!

 I just installed mine!!


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## UberCree (21 Feb 2006)

Has anyone out there been getting away with wearing a MICH ACU helmet with a CADPAT cover on it?


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## CS51 (29 May 2009)

COBRA-6 said:
			
		

> Wow, and I thought using the $0.99 US donut-shaped foam pad was high speed...   ;D



Does anyone know of a Canadian retailer or kit shop that sells these? I'm looking for a cheap and temporary way to make the helmet more comfortable. I see that bulletproofme.com has them but I don't know yet if they're willing to mail them to Canada...


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## MikeL (29 May 2009)

CS51 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know of a Canadian retailer or kit shop that sells these? I'm looking for a cheap and temporary way to make the helmet more comfortable. I see that bulletproofme.com has them but I don't know yet if they're willing to mail them to Canada...




I don't know of any Canadian Retailers that sell them.  If you want one you will most likely have to get it from the US.  I've ordered lots of stuff from the states an no retailers have had any issues with shipping to Canada. With the exception of ISTAR(?) restricted items.


Couple Canadian Retailers that sell Spydex an BLSS kits though.


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## Gandhi (14 May 2010)

CS51 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know of a Canadian retailer or kit shop that sells these? I'm looking for a cheap and temporary way to make the helmet more comfortable. I see that bulletproofme.com has them but I don't know yet if they're willing to mail them to Canada...



I know CP gear has helmet pads, they even have them installed into a helmet you can try on.  But, I was wondering if anyone had tried it and could say whether or not they are a good buy?


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## brihard (21 May 2010)

Gandhi said:
			
		

> I know CP gear has helmet pads, they even have them installed into a helmet you can try on.  But, I was wondering if anyone had tried it and could say whether or not they are a good buy?



LOL, friendly reminder here: Check the date of the post you're replying to.

You just Zombie'd a thread that had been dead for a year.


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## Gandhi (25 May 2010)

I realize that, yet why start a new post when there is 90% of the info I need, just looking for the extra bit that wasn't included.


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## Loachman (25 May 2010)

Do a search for Skydex. Reviews, comments, photos...


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## DirtyDog (28 Feb 2011)

Gandhi said:
			
		

> I know CP gear has helmet pads, they even have them installed into a helmet you can try on.  But, I was wondering if anyone had tried it and could say whether or not they are a good buy?


I had Skydex pads in for a few years but really wasn't happy with it.  I went with an Oregon Aero setup and was very happy.  There was someone selling Skydex pads for about $30 around here, which is a good value.  But at there regular price (90ish?) I would definitely opt for the BLSS.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/58196/post-961067.html#msg961067


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## Infanteer90 (5 Mar 2011)

The use of the "American" style helmet pads is forbidden by the Canadian Forces. Don't get caught using them....


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## Dissident (5 Mar 2011)

Infanteer90 said:
			
		

> The use of the "American" style helmet pads is forbidden by the Canadian Forces. Don't get caught using them....



RCR?


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## DirtyDog (5 Mar 2011)

Infanteer90 said:
			
		

> The use of the "American" style helmet pads is forbidden by the Canadian Forces. Don't get caught using them....


I've been using them for almost 4 years now, including (especially) on operations.  As has a lot of my CoC.

Yes, certain folks don't want you using them, so do so at your own risk....


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## Illegio (5 Mar 2011)

I can speak for 2VP in that they were A-OK for TF 1-08, but they are _verboten_ around the battalion these days. Most of the CoC turns a blind eye, but keep the innards of your lid out of sight while the Q or the RSM are around...


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## Dissident (5 Mar 2011)

Frankly, if I can get away with using the pad kit on PLQ, it should not be too hard to sneak it by their CoC with a minimum of effort.


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## PuckChaser (5 Mar 2011)

Illegio said:
			
		

> Most of the CoC turns a blind eye, but keep the innards of your lid out of sight while the Q or the RSM are around...



Best advice here, out of sight out of mind.


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## CombatDoc (6 Mar 2011)

Infanteer90 said:
			
		

> The use of the "American" style helmet pads is forbidden by the Canadian Forces. Don't get caught using them....


The reason that they are forbidden for use in the CF is because they decrease the level of head protection, not due to the "dress regs" or the "never pass a fault" philosophy.  Although they look to be superficially the same on the outside, apparently the US helmet system is significantly different from the Canadian helmet system.  Therefore, aftermarket items like the Oregon Aero pads which are designed for the US helmet won't offer the same level of protection with our helmet, which is designed to work as a system with the sometimes uncomfortable string/leather suspension.  Something to do with the memory foam transmitting the shock of a blast directly to the skull rather than attenuating it due to the stand-off distance.  This according to our BIO who is working with the DRDC folks.


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## Infanteer (6 Mar 2011)

Have a bioscience officer give you the presentation on what aftermarket kits do in an IED explosion - if your Pl 2IC is smart, he'll inspect helmets.  I have since went back to my original helmet lining.


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## Dissident (6 Mar 2011)

Not an IED, but my personal anecdotal evidence has shown the Skydex pad kit to be more effective than the issued suspension system. I can laugh off blows to the head that are painful to others not wearing a pad kit. Think helmet to helmet contact.

If someone has the presentation, I would love to look at it. As it is, I am cynically skeptical about the bioscience officer results. Would he/she be from the same crew that designed the new rucksack?


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## Infanteer (6 Mar 2011)

Dissident said:
			
		

> Not an IED, but my personal anecdotal evidence has shown the Skydex pad kit to be more effective than the issued suspension system. I can laugh off blows to the head that are painful to others not wearing a pad kit. Think helmet to helmet contact.
> 
> If someone has the presentation, I would love to look at it. As it is, I am cynically skeptical about the bioscience officer results. Would he/she be from the same crew that designed the new rucksack?



No, but they are from the same crew that peels blasted pieces of kit out of vehicles and examines how they acted in a critical incident like an IED blast.  Kit is compared to injuries and recomendations are made to the chain of command.  When it becomes a genuine safety issue for my soldiers, I'd rather be a d**k then see him more hurt than he need be if s**t goes south.  Same with the UnderArmour T-shirt issue before.


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## Dissident (6 Mar 2011)

Understandable. Maybe the pad kits will go the same way Dragon Skin armor went. 

I am still interested in the presentation and the data before I change my mind.


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## Infanteer (6 Mar 2011)

Your local Field Amb can likely arrange for that if you ask for it.


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## DirtyDog (6 Mar 2011)

The only presentation I saw about the helmet was how pad kits were inferior because you lost that extra space that the suspension put between your head from the exterior.  The evidence (as presented to us) was anectdotal at best.  I can see how it *might* be superior in certain situations, as it is the same concept as a construction safety helmet.  However, I'm not convinced the cumbersome design is superior in all or most aspects.  I could be wrong, I don't know.  I do know, without a doubt, they are a million times more comfortable.  What type of IED explosions have they studied the effects of on a modified helmet?  Are they talking mounted or dismounted?  How many times have they actually been able to study the effects on a modified helmet to a regular one?  I'm feeling somehow doubtful about the science of it all, especially after hearing some of the stuff they tell you in those briefings.

The system i use (BLSS) isn't a suspension, but it does have a band that removes most of the pads from direct attatchment to the interior of the helmet.  Probably superior to the Skydex slap in system in terms of protection.  I know I found it to be better at everythign else.

I have yet to see a Pl 21/C inspect helmets.


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## DirtyDog (6 Mar 2011)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> The reason that they are forbidden for use in the CF is because they decrease the level of head protection, not due to the "dress regs" or the "never pass a fault" philosophy.  Although they look to be superficially the same on the outside, apparently the US helmet system is significantly different from the Canadian helmet system.  Therefore, aftermarket items like the Oregon Aero pads which are designed for the US helmet won't offer the same level of protection with our helmet, which is designed to work as a system with the sometimes uncomfortable string/leather suspension.  Something to do with the memory foam transmitting the shock of a blast directly to the skull rather than attenuating it due to the stand-off distance.  This according to our BIO who is working with the DRDC folks.


Like I said, I'd like to see the science before I make a judgement.  I have a feeling it's more about what someone thinks about something, not what has been proven through studies/testing.

Until it can be shown to me it is unequivocally superior under most probable threats, I won't be switching back anytime soon. Unless, of course, directly ordered to. It's like being forced to drive a K-car after having been in a Cadillac for the last 3 years.

It's not like I'm in an IED enviroment these days anyway.  I'm pretty sure the pads will get me by for most threats I face in garrison.


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## Infanteer (6 Mar 2011)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Probably superior to the Skydex slap in system in terms of protection.



Yes - that's the one I've seen refered to.


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## PuckChaser (6 Mar 2011)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Have a bioscience officer give you the presentation on what aftermarket kits do in an IED explosion - if your Pl 2IC is smart, he'll inspect helmets.  I have since went back to my original helmet lining.



Do you have this powerpoint saved somewhere, or a POC to get the brief? I've seen some reporting about pad kits in post-blast situations, but never any hard evidence to counter their use.


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## McG (6 Mar 2011)

Illegio said:
			
		

> I can speak for 2VP in that they were A-OK for TF 1-08, but they are _verboten_ around the battalion these days. Most of the CoC turns a blind eye, but keep the innards of your lid out of sight while the Q or the RSM are around...


Anyone at any level in the CoC who turns a blind eye to soldiers modifying PPE should be charged.  They are being absolutely stupid and putting their soldiers lives at risk.  Helmet pads impare the ability of our helmet to protect & they are a modification to PPE.  This is not new information & it has been posted on this site before:


			
				MCG said:
			
		

> Our helmets were designed to work with a suspension system and it is known that pads will significantly impair protective characteristics.


There are differences between the material properties, protection mechanisms, and accepted risks between the our helmet and helmets of our allies.   If you don't believe me, then ask higher through your CoC.  The details do not belong out for public consumption, but the information is available within DND.


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## Illegio (6 Mar 2011)

I know guys that have been charged for modifying PPE (specifically, leaving the Kevlar out of the vests and just wearing the strike plates.) People I know that turn a blind eye to the helmet kits do so because they believe the pad system is not a detriment, and we've been given no information that suggests otherwise. If you have that information, I would be happy to PM you my DWAN address.


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## Infanteer (6 Mar 2011)

Information regarding the performance levels of PPE and how it reacts in certain situations tends to be protected/classified to some extent - it could reveal certain vulnerabilities.  Your chain-of-command is likely the best to talk to in getting this info through the proper channels.


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## CombatDoc (6 Mar 2011)

As Infanteer points out, OPSEC considerations preclude posting the details of how our PPE reacts to various threats.   It should suffice that our experts advise against helmet modifications.  However, for those who need to "understand the science" i.e. physics before going back to the issued suspension, all I can say it that it's your brain and brain cells don't regenerate.   :stars:


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## DirtyDog (6 Mar 2011)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> As Infanteer points out, OPSEC considerations preclude posting the details of how our PPE reacts to various threats.   It should suffice that our experts advise against helmet modifications.


Understandable.

But also understand we've been told by "experts" things like how the CTS ruck is ergonomically superior or a certain pair of boots they've designed is the be all end all.

Of course our people with advise against any modification of PPE.  I get that.  They have to and it makes sense.  But have they truly examined this particular issue in depth or are they just saying "Don't do it, it's a modification to a specifically designed system and will result in inferior protection"?


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## PuckChaser (6 Mar 2011)

The only testing I've seen IRT helmet pads was a G-load test, to see if the pads provided the same protection for parachutists that the suspension system did. I even believe it was on these forums. The results concluded the pads were only 2-5G worse, and still well within spec.


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## Dissident (6 Mar 2011)

[I was about to say something akin to what DD said, and:]

Let me share a personal experience:

One Wednesday night before trg started my troops were shooting the shit, talking about this new awesome armor: Dragon Skin. At the time I already had heard about the shortcomings of Dragon Skin, so I told them I would not use it and why. Although they were a bit skeptical, I had well articulated information (Thank you KevinB) as to why. The next week I had some of that info with sources on the cork board. That killed the debate and helped my credibility. The next trg night I informally talked to the guys/girls about being careful about new gadgets and new gear, told them to do some research and ask around. End result is I have no issues with troops using crappy kit and we are not afraid to try new stuff and admit when we made mistakes (Serpa holsters being one for example).


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## McG (6 Mar 2011)

DirtyDog said:
			
		

> Understandable.
> 
> But also understand we've been told by "experts" things like how the CTS ruck is ergonomically superior or a certain pair of boots they've designed is the be all end all.
> 
> Of course our people with advise against any modification of PPE.  I get that.  They have to and it makes sense.  But have they truly examined this particular issue in depth or are they just saying "Don't do it, it's a modification to a specifically designed system and will result in inferior protection"?


Yes.  They have examined this in depth.  Canada has a ballistics & munitions experimentation centre that has extensively tested terminal effects of various things against our PPE and against many sorts of PPE that we have rejected for use.  They have experimentally proven, several years back, that pads impare the function of our helmet and increase the chances of significant head injury & death.

It is also no secret that every soldier killed in Afghanistan (and the soldier's PPE) are medically/sceintifically examined in Toronto.  The CF biosceinces community has developed an unfortunate wealth of knowledge of how our PPE functions through this process.

The ballistics & medical communities in the CF are saying not to use pads.  That is a pretty significant backing, and any leader turning a blind-eye to the use of pads is being negligent.


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## MedCorps (6 Mar 2011)

If you look here at this Maple Leaf article:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/commun/ml-fe/article-eng.asp?id=6692

You will find the name of a fellow CFMS officer Major Natalie.  I know him well.  He is a ex-Infantry Officer now a Bioscience Officer with first hand experience on looking at armour post strike in the sandbox. The article mentions that he is now the OIC for the entire project within the Directorate of Soldier Systems Program Management in Ottawa so he still in the know. 

He is also a straight shooter and will tell you how it is.  If he does not have the science/stats he will let you know. I would strongly recommend for CF members who have an interest in this matter (especially those commanding personnel who maybe recommending IPE modifications) to drop him a line on the DWAN to see what his feeling / the science is on the matter.  You owe it to your troops. 

Good luck.  Post back and tell us how you make out, of course keeping OPSEC in mind. 

MC


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## PMedMoe (7 Mar 2011)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> You will find the name of a fellow CFMS officer Major Natalie Natale.



Fixed that for you.    

He was in KAF when I was there.  Super nice guy!   :nod:


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## Illegio (7 Mar 2011)

I emailed Maj. Natale in regards to the issue, and suffice it to say that the response was more than satisfactory. The concept is sound, and while it is publicly available information, I'll forgo posting it here in case there are any OPSEC issues. Anyone interested in a copy of the email, PM me your DWAN address and I will be more than happy to pass it along.


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## KevinB (14 Mar 2011)

Of course I found out about Dragon Skin after buying a set and running them for a about three weeks in Iraq...
  I also ran poly plates for a long time in Afghan and Iraq, and found the heat was delaminating them, so sometimes the next best newest thing is not always the right thing.

I'm curious about the Pad issue, as the BLSS kit effectively comes in a very similar helmet to the CF issue helmet from the OEM, the melon cover I currently have, that I wore for about 6 months in Afg, and 2 years in Iraq.  While I agree that some PPE issues are moronic (leaving out the soft armor with a non stand alone plate...) the pad issue does strike me as odd.


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## PuckChaser (14 Mar 2011)

Maj. Natale's explanation was very good, and made some sense. I may experiment with a hybrid system between suspension and pads, and see if I can get a comfortable fit with the proper mechanics of protection that he outlined.


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## Illegio (14 Mar 2011)

> I'm curious about the Pad issue, as the BLSS kit effectively comes in a very similar helmet to the CF issue helmet from the OEM, the melon cover I currently have, that I wore for about 6 months in Afg, and 2 years in Iraq.  While I agree that some PPE issues are moronic (leaving out the soft armor with a non stand alone plate...) the pad issue does strike me as odd.



Kevin, I think you're right in that not all pad systems are created equal - BLSS vs. Skydex being the prime example. However, suffice it to say that the pad systems are, for now at least, under a blanket ban. Having gone street-legal, I personally don't feel the urge to buck the system on my own dollar again, but Maj. Natale did extend the possibility of a follow-up from his helmet expert. I'm as curious as you to learn the specifics.



> Maj. Natale's explanation was very good, and made some sense. I may experiment with a hybrid system between suspension and pads, and see if I can get a comfortable fit with the proper mechanics of protection that he outlined.



Ech... The only issue that arises here is that an objective comparison between a stock helmet and one fitted w/ a pad/hybrid system requires destructive testing. The "tests" on the Oregon Aero website fail to address the key issue that was brought up, and so without a definitive analysis, everything is just supposition.

I'd do it myself, but I imagine the folks at clothing might get a bit squirrelly if I started bringing in the results for exchange.


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## Illegio (14 Mar 2011)

Anybody interested in the issues surrounding helmet protection - and the possible road ahead - might get something out of this article.

http://www.army.mil/-news/2011/02/18/52093-brain-experts-meet-to-further-soldier-head-protection/?ref=news-health-title5


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## Bzzliteyr (15 Mar 2011)

I had a discussion with the human factors officer overseas when I hit the ground last November.  I can see their point on the pad systems but I am not sure if they take into account the different pad systems that are out there.  I have seen the skydex pads which definitely do not give any stand off distance however I have had the BLSS kit in my helmet (I think I posted pics here) and it has a rigid headband that wraps around the whole inside of the helmet and the pad system velcros on to it.  The stand off of this system is greater than that of the skydex pad kit simply velcroed in. 

It'd be interesting to see what "system" they tested and caution against and what factor the screws or bolt system would play.

And on a side note, Military Moron's site has an interesting new helmet by Crye industries with a review, discuss.


http://www.militarymorons.com/gear/crye5.html#airframe


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## KevinB (17 Mar 2011)

Several top end entities down here have recently issues the Crye helmet


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