# Pistol Replacement



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Geoff Tyrell" <paraprimadonna@hotmail.com>* on *Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:41:40 PDT*
does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF?  i know that 
Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small  of SiGs for aircrew use.  
the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Sun, 25 Jun 2000 19:58:24 -0600*
Why would the air force need SiGs?  I don‘t think the pistols are
allowed in 5 star hotels while the air force is on "operations".
I‘ve heard the Brownings are to be replaced, however, I haven‘t seen any
timelines.  The Browning IMHO is an adequate combat pistol.  Easy to use
and if you fire enough rounds, you may hit something.
Geoff Tyrell wrote:
> 
> does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF?  i know that
> Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small  of SiGs for aircrew use.
> the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
> ________________________________________________________________________
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:28:58 -0600*
I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
> Sent:Sunday, June 25, 2000 7:42 PM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subjectistol Replacement
> 
> 
> does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF?  i know that 
> Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small  of SiGs for aircrew use.  
> the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:15:59 PDT*
The probem with the current pistol is the great variety of performance.  
Some of the pistols are in great shape... some of them aren‘t.  I‘m told by 
one of my WO who is most definately a fire-arms expert that this is common 
for this particular pistol.
Interestingly enough, when I was still in the Regs, and posted to St. Jean 
for french-language training, the former air force base had some incredibly 
accurate pistols, and an unbelievable amount of amunition.  We fired the 
pistols at least once a week for almost 10 months, most of us did it twice a 
week.
Steve
>From: Derrick Forsythe 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:28:58 -0600
>
>I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
> > Sent:Sunday, June 25, 2000 7:42 PM
> > To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subjectistol Replacement
> >
> >
> > does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF?  i know that
> > Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small  of SiGs for aircrew use.
> > the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:48:04 -0400*
The accuracy of each Browning aside from the competence of the firer is
pretty well a function of age and wear on the pistols‘ moving parts. I
remember Battalion pistol teams in the mid-eightys scouring base weapon
vaults for late series 7Ts ? weapons with little wear for transfer to
unit accounts. No rattle in the slide and clean rifling meant smaller groups.
In the hands of the average user mostly officers, of course the true
effective range of the pistol was directly proportional to the length of
the lanyard.
Officer used to carry pistols because their hands were then free for the
other tools of their trade: maps, compass, binos, radio handset, walking
stick, white china mug of rum at the Ortona crossroads   
And they weren‘t tempted to participate in the firefight like they may be
with a rifle.
Platon Warrants liked them too, you could tie a pistol to a tired
Lieutenant and he  could do his job and wouldn‘t wander off without it.   
mike
At 11:15 AM 6/26/00 PDT, you wrote:
>The probem with the current pistol is the great variety of performance.  
>Some of the pistols are in great shape... some of them aren‘t.  I‘m told by 
>one of my WO who is most definately a fire-arms expert that this is common 
>for this particular pistol.
>
>Interestingly enough, when I was still in the Regs, and posted to St. Jean 
>for french-language training, the former air force base had some incredibly 
>accurate pistols, and an unbelievable amount of amunition.  We fired the 
>pistols at least once a week for almost 10 months, most of us did it twice a 
>week.
>
>Steve
>
>>From: Derrick Forsythe 
>>
>>I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
>> > Subjectistol Replacement
>> >
>> > does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF?  i know that
>> > Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small  of SiGs for aircrew use.
>> > the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a replacement?
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:51:12 EDT*
Just like every other piece of kit in the CF, if they are maintained 
properly they will work.  Yes because it‘s a weapon, barrels will wear out, 
and sights will break/bend etc... but that is what we have Gun Plumbers for. 
  As for the Airforce carrying SIG Sauers, It doesn‘t really matter if you 
give those guys SIGs or Musket Pistols they couldn‘t hit the a barn if they 
standing inside it.  I‘d be more apt to believe that the "wind" have the 
Sigs.  Not because it‘s a better pistol, but because it has more firepower 
not to be confused with stopping power, both are 9mm.
>From: "Steve Kuervers" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:15:59 PDT
>
>The probem with the current pistol is the great variety of performance.
>Some of the pistols are in great shape... some of them aren‘t.  I‘m told by
>one of my WO who is most definately a fire-arms expert that this is 
>common
>for this particular pistol.
>
>Interestingly enough, when I was still in the Regs, and posted to St. Jean
>for french-language training, the former air force base had some incredibly
>accurate pistols, and an unbelievable amount of amunition.  We fired the
>pistols at least once a week for almost 10 months, most of us did it twice 
>a
>week.
>
>Steve
>
>
>>From: Derrick Forsythe 
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
>>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:28:58 -0600
>>
>>I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
>> > Sent:Sunday, June 25, 2000 7:42 PM
>> > To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>> > Subjectistol Replacement
>> >
>> >
>> > does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF?  i know that
>> > Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small  of SiGs for aircrew 
>>use.
>> > the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a 
>>replacement?
>> > 
>>________________________________________________________________________
>> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at 
>>http://www.hotmail.com
>> >
>> > --------------------------------------------------------
>> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> > message body.
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>message body.
>
>________________________________________________________________________
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:57:21 EDT*
The drawback to officers carrying pistols of course are,  it alows them to 
use the map/compass, and it gives the enemy a great idea of whom the 
"leader" is In case of some Jr. Subalterns with not a bad idea, but as a 
hole it draws a lot unwanted attention to those of whom routinely are co 
located with the unfortunate pistol carrier.
>From: "Michael O‘Leary" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:48:04 -0400
>
>The accuracy of each Browning aside from the competence of the firer is
>pretty well a function of age and wear on the pistols‘ moving parts. I
>remember Battalion pistol teams in the mid-eightys scouring base weapon
>vaults for late series 7Ts ? weapons with little wear for transfer to
>unit accounts. No rattle in the slide and clean rifling meant smaller 
>groups.
>
>In the hands of the average user mostly officers, of course the true
>effective range of the pistol was directly proportional to the length of
>the lanyard.
>
>Officer used to carry pistols because their hands were then free for the
>other tools of their trade: maps, compass, binos, radio handset, walking
>stick, white china mug of rum at the Ortona crossroads   
>
>And they weren‘t tempted to participate in the firefight like they may be
>with a rifle.
>
>Platon Warrants liked them too, you could tie a pistol to a tired
>Lieutenant and he  could do his job and wouldn‘t wander off without it.   
>
>
>mike
>
>
>At 11:15 AM 6/26/00 PDT, you wrote:
> >The probem with the current pistol is the great variety of performance.
> >Some of the pistols are in great shape... some of them aren‘t.  I‘m told 
>by
> >one of my WO who is most definately a fire-arms expert that this is 
>common
> >for this particular pistol.
> >
> >Interestingly enough, when I was still in the Regs, and posted to St. 
>Jean
> >for french-language training, the former air force base had some 
>incredibly
> >accurate pistols, and an unbelievable amount of amunition.  We fired the
> >pistols at least once a week for almost 10 months, most of us did it 
>twice a
> >week.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >>From: Derrick Forsythe 
> >>
> >>I haven‘t heard anything - but if it ain‘t broke - why fix it
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From:Geoff Tyrell [SMTParaprimadonna@hotmail.com]
> >> > Subjectistol Replacement
> >> >
> >> > does anyone know the current status of pistols in the CF?  i know 
>that
> >> > Browning 9mm‘s are used, and there is a small  of SiGs for aircrew 
>use.
> >> > the Browning has been in service since 1943...any word on a 
>replacement?
>
>
>
>Michael O‘Leary
>
>Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
>
>The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
>Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
>new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:33:51 EDT*
All that may be true, but is the pistol still standard issue for officers?
-Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"S. Brent Warne" <sbw@netidea.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:58:32 -0700*
Matt
I think unit SOP"S play a big part in who carries what.
I would suggest that most CP bound staff officers would carry a pistol 
and most line officers would carry a C7/C8.  Most OC‘s / CO‘s prefer to 
carry a C7 to show the members of the unit they are soldiers too.  It 
goes without saying that Platoon Commanders carry a C7.  Anything else 
would be a bullet catcher.
The previous 1 CMBG comd, Col Leslie, carried a C8.
My thoughts on the pistol are they only need to issue one round. 
-----Original Message-----
From:Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
Sent:Monday, June 26, 2000 12:34 PM
To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject:Re: Pistol Replacement
All that may be true, but is the pistol still standard issue for 
officers?
-Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 16:14:57 -0400*
Which of course begs the question:
Does the burden and awkwardness of the rifle sufficently compensate for
anticipating a poor standard of personal fieldcraft and concealment?   :
I carried a pistol as a platoon commander and it didn‘t diminish my
capabilities. I have seen more junior officers tripping over themselves
trying to keep the rifle out of the way while they are learning/doing their
job. It‘s not because they‘re clumsy well, not all of them, the rifle can
just get in the way. 
Generally, the leader in a group is picked out by the way s/he‘s waving and
shouting, and the reactions of those in the tight group of people around
him/her. While I‘m not strongly pro or con on the issue, I believe that by
the time a rifle company officer needs to use a rifle, there will be plenty
of spares lying around. 
As to what the present standard is, it seems to be more of a unit SOP
thing, the current flavour-of-the-month is that they carry rifles. Although
I am sure someone can quote the chapter and verse of Section and Platoon in
Battle, likely showing the Platoon Commander‘s personal weapon to be a
rifle at least in this edition. Nobody actually reads a publication until
it can be used to support their argument anyway.  
mike
At 02:57 PM 6/26/00 EDT, you wrote:
>The drawback to officers carrying pistols of course are,  it alows them to 
>use the map/compass, and it gives the enemy a great idea of whom the 
>"leader" is In case of some Jr. Subalterns with not a bad idea, but as a 
>hole it draws a lot unwanted attention to those of whom routinely are co 
>located with the unfortunate pistol carrier.
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 13:19:45 PDT*
Personnally, I believe that most officer‘s should have both a C7 and a 
pistol.  The C7 can be turned in or locked up when the officer is doing CP 
duties if necessary short shifts, it isn‘t worth it.  I carry a pistol in 
the field if I‘m acting as the Arty safety officer, just because I don‘t 
like going to the field without a weapon, and the C7 gets in the way of the 
safety job, where a lanyarded pistol doesn‘t.
But the image of an officer leading his men by waving his map in one hand 
and his pistol in the other has got to bring a smile to any snipers out 
there.
Brings back memories... Phase 2... "Mr Kuervers, take over the section, Mr. 
Bloggins just dies..." as I watch one of my unsuccessful compatriots 
attempt to lead us to the target waving a big white map over his head.
Steve
>From: "S. Brent Warne" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:58:32 -0700
>
>Matt
>
>I think unit SOP"S play a big part in who carries what.
>
>I would suggest that most CP bound staff officers would carry a pistol and 
>most line officers would carry a C7/C8.  Most OC‘s / CO‘s prefer to carry a 
>C7 to show the members of the unit they are soldiers too.  It goes without 
>saying that Platoon Commanders carry a C7.  Anything else would be a bullet 
>catcher.
>
>The previous 1 CMBG comd, Col Leslie, carried a C8.
>
>My thoughts on the pistol are they only need to issue one round.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:Juno847627709@aol.com [SMTP:Juno847627709@aol.com]
>Sent:Monday, June 26, 2000 12:34 PM
>To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject:Re: Pistol Replacement
>
>All that may be true, but is the pistol still standard issue for officers?
>-Matt
>--------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:13:34 -0600*
I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle be it a
C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a rifle
just gets in the way.
My personal philosophy was that my pistol was for close in personal
protection..hence I carried mine in a shoulder holster...very much more
convenient than webbing in a CP. I always believed that if the situation I
was in required a rifle there would probably be some available from
casualties.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:19:30 -0600*
I disagree - both the FOO and the Recce officer are pretty much useless
without a rifle - and they don‘t really get in the way
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Bruce Williams [SMTP:Williabr@uregina.ca]
> Sent:Monday, June 26, 2000 3:14 PM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:Re: Pistol Replacement
> 
> I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle be it
> a
> C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a rifle
> just gets in the way.
> 
> My personal philosophy was that my pistol was for close in personal
> protection..hence I carried mine in a shoulder holster...very much more
> convenient than webbing in a CP. I always believed that if the situation I
> was in required a rifle there would probably be some available from
> casualties.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:01:46 PDT*
As usual Derrick and I agree on this one.  Just for interest, the CF has a 
new standard issue holster for the pistol.  An off-the-shelf from the States 
can‘t remember the manufacturer.  It can be setup to work as a shoulder 
holster or a belt holster, and it comes with an extension that allows it to 
be belt holstered, but down on the hip with room to tie around the leg.
I tried it in the shoulder mount, works OK, but definately takes time to 
configure for preference.  Translation:  Get one permanently issued and get 
it set up so it fits for you!  It appears to be designed to fit with the 
new load-bearing vest, and ruck sacks.  Unfortunately, it doesn‘t work with 
webbing, but since most of us try to wear pistols separate from the webbing, 
that‘s probably OK.
Steve
>From: Derrick Forsythe 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
>Subject: RE: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 15:19:30 -0600
>
>I disagree - both the FOO and the Recce officer are pretty much useless
>without a rifle - and they don‘t really get in the way
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:Bruce Williams [SMTP:Williabr@uregina.ca]
> > Sent:Monday, June 26, 2000 3:14 PM
> > To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subject:Re: Pistol Replacement
> >
> > I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle be 
>it
> > a
> > C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a rifle
> > just gets in the way.
> >
> > My personal philosophy was that my pistol was for close in personal
> > protection..hence I carried mine in a shoulder holster...very much more
> > convenient than webbing in a CP. I always believed that if the situation 
>I
> > was in required a rifle there would probably be some available from
> > casualties.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Geoff Winnington-Ball <gwball@sympatico.ca>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:24:50 -0400*
Pistols New  Old, and Hofficers
Interesting subject! The fact remains, our Brownings were manufactured before
most of us were born, and while superb weapons at the time, are no longer
state-of-the-art. Not only that, but they are mostly worn out. Trust an old
handgunner - there‘s nothing worse than trying to hit something man-sized - at
any range - with a loose slide, worn locking lugs and mediochre sights. Not only
that, but frankly, the Browning HP ISN‘T the most sophisticated design on the
market any more. They were REALLY good when the standard was the Enfield .380
break-top revolver, but now....
Regards your various comments on the efficacy of having officers and selected
NCOs carrying pistols, I can only draw your attention to the magnificent works
of George Blackburn The Guns of Normandy, etc... anything which distinguishes
one man from another becomes a bullet magnet in a war zone. Contrary to many of
the PR pictures taken during WW2, most officers and NCOs at the sharp end
carried their pistols or revolvers in their pockets. With the relative
sophistication of riflry and basic tactics nowadays, I would think this kind of
deception is more valid than ever. Besides, a field officer willing to carry a
rifle into battle inspires his troops, in that it suggests he‘s going to be down
in the mud beside them, using his *superior* skills to help them take the day.
And speaking of which, it is oft said that the most dangerous being on any
battlefield is a 2LT with a map... I‘m inclined to agree... I once was one...
:-
--
Regards,
Geoff Winnington-Ball
MAPLE LEAF UP! ==>
Zephyr, Ontario, Canada
Maple Leaf Up - The Canadian Army Overseas in WW2
 http://www.mapleleafup.org 
1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment
 http://www.1cacr.org 
TankNet Military Forums
 http://www.tanknet.org 
Chrid Loveridge wrote:
> The drawback to officers carrying pistols of course are,  it alows them to
> use the map/compass..........
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:27:45 -0400*
At 06:24 PM 6/26/00 -0400, Geoff Winnington-Ball wrote:
>Pistols New  Old, and Hofficers
>
>And speaking of which, it is oft said that the most dangerous being on any
>battlefield is a 2LT with a map... I‘m inclined to agree... I once was one...
And this, of course, opens an another worthwhile thread while we are
slagging our younger selves and identifying the related equipment and
training shortfalls that led us to be sush an endless source of amusement
for our NCOs. 
Perhaps that old observation wouldn‘t be so true if we had a standard
navigation package which culminated in something more that "set the
bearing, and follow the needle to the next checkpoint." I am continually
amazed when I compare our present map-using standards and publication to
any earlier renditions from the late 1800s to the 1960s.
It seems that map-using is the ultimate OJT event, with foreseeable
results. And as a rule, it is those officers or NCOs who are required to
use their maps in everyday execution of their duties that eventually learn
the necessary skills to do it well: gunners and mortarmen usually, recce
when they‘re being recce and not just posing with a tank-hunting knife
strapped upsidedown to their web gear, the air observers were damn good at
it but only at 120 kph. Too many others depended on the few naturals in
their midst, content to follow in convoy or to simply follow the well-worn
tracks from "Square Wood" to the "Scotty Dog" beacuse that‘s where the next
objective always is, without concsiously following the contours or reading
the ground.
This is why the RV series was so good for the army‘s small unit comanders
section/TC/detachment to coy/sqn/bty. It put pretty well everyone on new
terrain. And when it was run in Suffield, they old pros didn‘t have the
luxury of just driving from one treeline to the next. As a young mortar
platoon second-in-command on RV 85 doing recce, baseplate preparations, and
leading in the OP parties when necessary, it was where I suddenly realized
I was reading my map, rather than just following the roads and woodlines a
lucky combination of nervous sweat, hard work and damn good NCOs in the
platoon to watch over me. I certainly wasn‘t taught that degree of
map-using in training, and the package hasn‘t changed since then.
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 20:10:31 -0600*
> Perhaps that old observation wouldn‘t be so true if we had a standard
> navigation package which culminated in something more that "set the
> bearing, and follow the needle to the next checkpoint." I am continually
> amazed when I compare our present map-using standards and publication to
> any earlier renditions from the late 1800s to the 1960s.
There is another major threat to the learning of competent map using...the
dreaded GPS. The technology is wonderful but I believe from my reading that
there is a tendency to rely on it totally. I hate to say it but GPS is the
only navigation system in human history where we can‘t guesstimate if we
have to..the old Mark I eyeball just doesn‘t triangulate satellites in orbit
really well. Well I guess thetas not the only thing...tough to locate North
with the sun and a digital watch.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:55:55 EDT*
Now, I apologize to all those on the list for just asking question after 
question, but I have to know this stuff really soon .
    Now, I know a little bit about the C7  \  C7A1, but I have a question 
about the C8‘s.- They are just like a smaller version of the C7, but use the 
same 30 rd. clip, right?
    And secondly, would it be an infantry officer‘s perogative whether to 
carry a C7 or a C8?
    Once again, sorry for the ignorance,
                                        -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:54:39 -0600*
Ahh...fond memories as a recce officer carrying six gun markers, a
radio, webbing and that wonderful FNC1.  When you stopped at each gun
platform, you had to literally drop everything, plant the gun marker and
dig into your coat and grab you‘re prismatic compass.  Once the gun
marker was on the centre of arc, pick it all up, run 50 metres and
repeat.  
WRT the FOO carrying a rifle.  I remember our SOP for occupying an OP. 
I jump out of my 113, grab my webbing, shooting kit, radio, shovel and
my trusty rifle a trusty C7 by now.  Why carry the rifle?  The FOOs
job isn‘t to shoot the rifle, it‘s to call in indirect fire in all its
wonderous forms and advise your company commander.  No more, no less.  
Nope, god forbide an officer should have a pistol...I shake my head at
some of the stupidity we inflict on ourselves.  I‘m a firm believer the
officer is there to lead and if he is carrying too much stuff, or,
trying to fight the battle, he can‘t command.  Pistols were good enough
for officers in all the major wars and its good enough now. 
I‘m not sure what I‘ll make my officers carry when I have my own battery
or regiment...hmm...i got screwed around as a young guy...maybe I‘ll do
it to my junior officers!
Put my 2 cents in for officers carrying a pistol!  If you want to carry
a rifle, hand in your commission and become a rifleman no offence
Mike.
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
> 
> I disagree - both the FOO and the Recce officer are pretty much useless
> without a rifle - and they don‘t really get in the way
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bruce Williams [SMTP:Williabr@uregina.ca]
> > Sent: Monday, June 26, 2000 3:14 PM
> > To:   army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > Subject:      Re: Pistol Replacement
> >
> > I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle be it
> > a
> > C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a rifle
> > just gets in the way.
> >
> > My personal philosophy was that my pistol was for close in personal
> > protection..hence I carried mine in a shoulder holster...very much more
> > convenient than webbing in a CP. I always believed that if the situation I
> > was in required a rifle there would probably be some available from
> > casualties.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:44:49 PDT*
Geoff:
If the  scariest thing on the battlefield is an officer with a map and 
compass, what about an officer with GPS??
I can say it, I is one.
Steve
Mud Gunner
Locating Gunner one of the few
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com>* on *Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:51:27 PDT*
Agree totally Michael.
You may be sad to find out that Scotty Dog wood no longer looks like it‘s 
namesake after the new maps have come out.  Just sort of a blob of trees 
nowadays.
Steve
PS:  Locating gunners have to know our way around by contours extremely 
well.  I was taught by my NCOs... "OK Sir, you‘ve been in the back of the CP 
for this hour-long road move, get out and tell me where we are within 3 
minutes".  Amazing what being put on the spot will do for you.
>From: "Michael O‘Leary" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Map-Using, was Re: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 21:27:45 -0400
>
>It seems that map-using is the ultimate OJT event, with foreseeable
>results. And as a rule, it is those officers or NCOs who are required to
>use their maps in everyday execution of their duties that eventually learn
>the necessary skills to do it well: gunners and mortarmen usually, recce
>when they‘re being recce and not just posing with a tank-hunting knife
>strapped upsidedown to their web gear, the air observers were damn good at
>it but only at 120 kph. Too many others depended on the few naturals in
>their midst, content to follow in convoy or to simply follow the well-worn
>tracks from "Square Wood" to the "Scotty Dog" beacuse that‘s where the next
>objective always is, without concsiously following the contours or reading
>the ground.
>
>This is why the RV series was so good for the army‘s small unit comanders
>section/TC/detachment to coy/sqn/bty. It put pretty well everyone on new
>terrain. And when it was run in Suffield, they old pros didn‘t have the
>luxury of just driving from one treeline to the next. As a young mortar
>platoon second-in-command on RV 85 doing recce, baseplate preparations, and
>leading in the OP parties when necessary, it was where I suddenly realized
>I was reading my map, rather than just following the roads and woodlines a
>lucky combination of nervous sweat, hard work and damn good NCOs in the
>platoon to watch over me. I certainly wasn‘t taught that degree of
>map-using in training, and the package hasn‘t changed since then.
>
>mike
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:16:17 -0400*
Matt, the C8 is issued to the Armour for tank crews. Infantry officers and
troops are issued the C7. No word yet on whether there will be an issue of
C8s for LAV crews - but I doubt it.
mike
At 10:55 PM 6/26/00 EDT, you wrote:
>Now, I apologize to all those on the list for just asking question after 
>question, but I have to know this stuff really soon .
>    Now, I know a little bit about the C7  \  C7A1, but I have a question 
>about the C8‘s.- They are just like a smaller version of the C7, but use the 
>same 30 rd. clip, right?
>    And secondly, would it be an infantry officer‘s perogative whether to 
>carry a C7 or a C8?
>    Once again, sorry for the ignorance,
>                                        -Matt
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:09:14 -0400*
At 10:54 PM 6/26/00 -0600, Gunner wrote:
>
>Put my 2 cents in for officers carrying a pistol!  If you want to carry
>a rifle, hand in your commission and become a rifleman no offence
>Mike.
>
>Derrick Forsythe wrote:
>> I disagree - both the FOO and the Recce officer are pretty much useless
>> without a rifle - and they don‘t really get in the way
>> 
>> > From: Bruce Williams [SMTP:Williabr@uregina.ca]
>> > I believe that most infantry platoon commanders should carry a rifle
be it
>> > a C7 or the trusty old C1A1 I carried. For most other officer jobs a
rifle
>> > just gets in the way.
You‘re going to have to work harder than that to offend me Gunner. I firmly
believe that the most important weapon system on the battlefield is the
infantry rifleman. But he needs someone to "tell him what to do, and
how/when/where/why to do it." Insert applicable politically correct gender
switching pronouns as appropriate. That leadership role is the officer‘s
principal responsibility and the extra weight and bother of a long arm
could make the difference between good and mediocre leadership and
decision-making when stress and fatigue levels rise for all involved.
The rifle is the tip of an iceberg when it come to load-bearing. Don‘t
forget the basic load of rifle ammo, then why not a few grenades or even a
LAW. 
We have to keep in mind that fatigue has two interdependent components -
physical and psychological. We need our officers to be switched on all the
times and prepared to motivate tired troops. This is much more difficult if
they have been carrying the same load over the same terrain for the same
distance. That‘s why we gave them signallers to carry radios and
batman/runners with rifles for close-in protection.
Unfortunately, the impression of political correctness has crept into how
we equip our officers. We get away with it in an army where campaigns
exercises have a 4-5 day activity cycle and battles are 2-3 hours
duration. Similarly with a mainly mechanized force we aren‘t habitually
subject to the effects of load-carrying under the stresses of combat real
or simulated for any length of time.
I am continually amazed when we repeatedly circle these arguments. Many of
these issues would be resolved if commanders and staff would review the
"Canadian Army Training Memoranda" and Notes Form Theatres of War"
published during the Second World War. We need to give more credit for
research and less for originality in politically correct justification. 
We have to approach these questions of dress and equipment from the right
point of view, that of practicality and effectiveness under the most trying
conditions:
"If you wish to decide on the most practical way of dressing the soldiers,
you ought to banish from your mind the vision of how they look drawn up on
parade on some splendid square, and instead imagine how they must appear
when they are marching across fields, climbing hills, crashing through
woods, fording rivers and digging in the ground, in all probability at a
time when they are crushed by exhaustion, and exposed to rain, wind or
appalling cold." Breze, Marquis, Reflexions sur les prejuges militaires,
Turin, 1779 - Christopher Duffy, The Military Experience in the Age of
Reason, 1987
Also, be careful how you equip commanders, lest they be tempted to
participate in the battle rather than to remain a dispassionate director of
the forces under their command:
"Commanders who actively engaged the enemy with their weapons systems were
three times more likely to be killed than those who fought with their unit
and only fired as a last resort." - Command Continuity on the Airland
Battlefield, US Army Centre for Army Lessons Learned CALL, Newsletter No.
88-1
I have seen officers trying to use their rifles and LAWs during
platoon/company field firing and have the assault grind to a halt because
no-one was leading the attack.
We have to remain aware that if we teach our commanders that they must do
everything their riflemen do as well as be the leader, it places an
incredible amount of extra physical and psychological stress upon them. Our
leaders are not superhuman, we want them to be able to make good decisions
at a time when most others are incapacitated by fatigue and stress, for
that reason we have to protect our combat leaders from themselves and/or
the effects of teaching poorly justified practices which increase their own
work loads and stress levels:
"Some commanders, during periods of stress, work themselves to a standstill
and refuse all offers of food and drink and other creature comforts. At
such times it may be the duty of the staff to insist tactfully that the
commander is looked after properly and fed and rested. The care and
maintenance of the commander is sometimes a difficult task." - From an
article in "The Tank," quoted in Current Reports From Overseas, No. 64, The
War Office, 22nd November, 1944
Well-trained officers who remain alert will stay out of the enemy‘s line of
fire whether they carry a rifle or a pistol. Those who are poorly trained
usually by their own poor attention during training, tired, stressed or
practicing bad habits learned in dry training they will do something to
attract an enemy‘s fire more readily than what type of weapon they are
carrying. 
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:23:54 -0400*
At 10:44 PM 6/26/00 PDT, Steve Kuervers wrote:
>Geoff:
>
>If the  scariest thing on the battlefield is an officer with a map and 
>compass, what about an officer with GPS??
>
>I can say it, I is one.
>
>Steve, Mud Gunner, Locating Gunner one of the few
Steve, I agree. The fundamental problem, however, is not that the
technology is evil, but that many people allow the fade of the skills it
replaced both from lack of practice as well as dropping them from training
altogether. I remember when we tried to develop the Mortar Fire Data
Calculator to replace the now returned mortar plotting board. Young NCOs
and officers were enamoured of the high-tech approach to calculating fire
data. But they also failed to gain the one critically important skill that
the plotting baord provided over time - the ability to ‘see‘ a fire mission
and automatically know if the relationship between the observers adjustment
and the change to bearing and elevatuion was appropriate.
That understanding of the geometry went a long way to catching errors
before data went to the mortars. With the calculator too many were willing
to believe anything it told them, even when a crippled system or finger
problems on entry could  provide obviously wrong data.
Simultaneously, those who embraced the new technology too eagerly ignored
the maintenance of the manual skills. They were, therefore much less
effective when batteries or calculators died.
There is the very real danger of similar hazards with GPS. Good instruction
and thorough practice of non-electronic navigation skills becomes more
important, because the day you need them you‘ll have to get it right the
first time. 
DS - "Mr. Bloggins, your GPS batteries just died, who is the back-up
navigator for your patrol."
Bloggins - in a very small voice I didn‘t think I needed one Warrant. The
course officer said we could use the GPS to navigate on our patrols.
mike 
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:27:19 -0400*
At 10:51 PM 6/26/00 PDT, you wrote:
>Agree totally Michael.
>
>You may be sad to find out that Scotty Dog wood no longer looks like it‘s 
>namesake after the new maps have come out.  Just sort of a blob of trees 
>nowadays.
>
>Steve
I guess I‘ll see it in August when I deploy for ARCON with the Princess
Louise Fusiliers. As well as a few other swamps and sites I either sank my
M-113 in or spent the night swatting mosquitos as a pl comd.
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:30:19 EDT*
great. thanks mike
-matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Steve Kuervers" <skuervers@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 27 Jun 2000 07:37:11 PDT*
Boy oh boy do I agree with you Michael.
One of my biggest shocks was just after I finished Phase 3 Arty, and found 
out that they were taking the majority of the ‘manual‘ mission training out 
of it for Officers.
The concept is that officers only need to know how to manually fire AN, and 
they are taught how to double-check the other ‘specialty‘ missions. But I 
found that my extended training ie the ‘old way‘ allowed me to fully 
understand the process going on in the Milipac and, nowadays, the BFCS.  In 
fact, it was even more helpful as I continued my training ‘out-of-school‘ 
and learned about things like Mapping Geods and stuff.  Just for interest, 
did you realize that the Milipac was never updated to the WGS84 Geod? This 
means that at extreme distances 16  km it would be quite a bit out of 
whack with the actual maps because the old Geod was quite a bit smaller than 
WGS84.
Of course, MITCP officers never get this anyway.  I believe they have always 
only done AN area neutralization missions.  Derrick, can you shed any 
light on this?
Ah well, in my not so important opinion, I believe this is a mistake.
Steve
>From: "Michael O‘Leary" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Technology versus Skills, Re: Pistol Replacement
>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 09:23:54 -0400
>
>At 10:44 PM 6/26/00 PDT, Steve Kuervers wrote:
> >Geoff:
> >
> >If the  scariest thing on the battlefield is an officer with a map and
> >compass, what about an officer with GPS??
> >
> >I can say it, I is one.
> >
> >Steve, Mud Gunner, Locating Gunner one of the few
>
>Steve, I agree. The fundamental problem, however, is not that the
>technology is evil, but that many people allow the fade of the skills it
>replaced both from lack of practice as well as dropping them from training
>altogether. I remember when we tried to develop the Mortar Fire Data
>Calculator to replace the now returned mortar plotting board. Young NCOs
>and officers were enamoured of the high-tech approach to calculating fire
>data. But they also failed to gain the one critically important skill that
>the plotting baord provided over time - the ability to ‘see‘ a fire mission
>and automatically know if the relationship between the observers adjustment
>and the change to bearing and elevatuion was appropriate.
>
>That understanding of the geometry went a long way to catching errors
>before data went to the mortars. With the calculator too many were willing
>to believe anything it told them, even when a crippled system or finger
>problems on entry could  provide obviously wrong data.
>
>Simultaneously, those who embraced the new technology too eagerly ignored
>the maintenance of the manual skills. They were, therefore much less
>effective when batteries or calculators died.
>
>There is the very real danger of similar hazards with GPS. Good instruction
>and thorough practice of non-electronic navigation skills becomes more
>important, because the day you need them you‘ll have to get it right the
>first time.
>
>DS - "Mr. Bloggins, your GPS batteries just died, who is the back-up
>navigator for your patrol."
>Bloggins - in a very small voice I didn‘t think I needed one Warrant. The
>course officer said we could use the GPS to navigate on our patrols.
>
>
>mike
>
>
>
>
>
>Michael O‘Leary
>
>Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
>
>The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
>Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
>new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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>NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Geoff Tyrell" <paraprimadonna@hotmail.com>* on *Tue, 27 Jun 2000 08:18:04 PDT*
good point...im applying to RMC this september, by the way.  how tough is 
BOTC?  im an Air Cadet Flight Sergeant not the real thing, i know and one 
of my......useless officers is going on it this summer.  any pointers?
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Tue, 27 Jun 2000 14:23:27 -0400*
At 08:18 AM 6/27/00 PDT, Geoff Tyrell wrote:
>
>good point...im applying to RMC this september, by the way.  how tough is 
>BOTC?  im an Air Cadet Flight Sergeant not the real thing, i know and one 
>of my......useless officers is going on it this summer.  any pointers?
Geoff, BOTC is only as tough as the individual makes it.
In a nutshell, the best and most succinct words of advice for anyone with
some prior experience is this:
"Keep your mouth shut."
"Keep your ears and eyes open."
"Help others with the mundane stuff i.e., the chicken****: boots, weapon
maint, bedspaces, etc. so you can all focus and cooperate on the core
though not necessarily obvious aspects of basic officer training:
leadership, problem-solving, teamwork, etc."
"When you‘re getting frustrated watching someone having trouble catching on
to something you think is easy, remember you had to learn it for a first
time once yourself."
Good luck in your training. Just remember over the next few years that RMC
is not to be confused with reality.   
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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