# Seeking advice and feedback on ideal personal CF career path



## jmlane (1 Feb 2012)

Hello,

I am a nearly-25 year old male who is reasonably fit. I have been, for the last 6 years, an university student and employed in the IT field. My long-time girlfriend and I are getting married this August. I have a strong background in IT and a keen interest in both the theoretical and applied components of various technologies and media. I have also recently rediscovered my passion for math due to some university classes I have been taking.

I have been putting serious consideration in beginning a career in the CF for the last two years. Previous to these last two year, I've had an interest in the CF, military life, and most of the various aspect of soldiering, so I have always known that I would enjoy and take pride in being a member of the CF. I believe now is right time for me to challenge myself with a career in the CF and I wish to make the best possible choices on my application to ensure my career begins on the right path.

I sincerely wish to serve in an NCM combat or embedded combat support trade for the initial period of my CF career. I believe I have what it takes to be calm under fire and perform my duties efficiently during combat, therefore I wish to be in a position where these skills will best used while I am still young and physically able. I hope to gain the training, knowledge, and experience of proper operations in a combat situation, to better prepare myself for the possibility of leading men and women in similar situations later in my career. I hope to also prove that I have the leadership abilities required to lead and take responsibility in combat, however I know that this opportunity will come as I prove myself capable as an individual solider and as part of a team in my unit foremost.

Now, to my questions:

Upon completion of my training and having accumulated a mastery of my initial trade and having received field experience, I will most likely wish to apply for 1) a commission and (possibly) 2) an occupational transfer to what will likely be an ICT/EW trade where I can apply and further develop my technological skills. Knowing that to be considered for most career progressions or moves in the CF, I should be making an effort to be a good soldier and good at my current job, what other factors should I be mindful of when planning on applying for UTPNCM and/or VOT out of a combat arms/combat support trade and into an ICT/EW trade?

Is it reasonable to consider these objectives highly obtainable in my CF career path? Is UTPNCM and/or VOT to CELE likely in 3–10 years of my swearing-in, if my file is in good standing as a combat arms or combat support NCM? Nothing is guaranteed of course, but I rather not sign a contract for a trade where I will have negligible chance at my ideal career objectives.

Thank for you reading my post and for posting any possible advice or feedback you may have to offer.


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## RCDtpr (1 Feb 2012)

Keep in mind that getting an OT or commission from the ranks is FAR from a guarantee.  When Afghanistan was still going strong...combat arms guys were laughed out of the BPSO's office when they tried for an OT.

Obviously nobody knows what the situation will be like down the road...but be aware the possbiility that you might never get a commission or OT is there if you join as an NCM.


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## jmlane (1 Feb 2012)

Thanks RCDcpl for the informative response.

If no opportunity presents itself for an OT or commission from the ranks for the duration of my contract, would the CF look negatively at "civilian" applicants who apply for a different trade? Would applicants with former service in CF gain any benefit over civilians without that experience in the case I describe?

I hope I don't come off as wanting to game the system or cheat the CF in any way. I just want to know what my options are before I make any commitments that could limit future possibilities.

Thanks again.


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## RCDtpr (1 Feb 2012)

Sure, down the road releasing for the CF and walking right back into a CFRC is an option but keep in mind that the wait could be a while before you get back in.

I've contemplated releasing and trying to get back in in a different trade (as OT's are tough to get these days).....but at this point in my life it's not financially viable.  So my options are basically get an OT (which is far from a guarantee) or continue working hard, and spend my career as a crewman.


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## AmmoTech90 (1 Feb 2012)

Keep in mind technical skills are extremely perishable.  I know a member who joined to pay off student loans following a masters in computer science.  Once his obligatory service was over he looked around and realized he would have to retrain in order to secure even an entry level position on civvie street.  He's still in.  If you want to work in your field, join in your field.

As far a learning to lead as a NCM before becoming an officer, it isn't required, thousands have gone directly on to become officers.  Some have even become leaders.


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## jmlane (1 Feb 2012)

RCDcpl said:
			
		

> I've contemplated releasing and trying to get back in in a different trade (as OT's are tough to get these days).....but at this point in my life it's not financially viable.  So my options are basically get an OT (which is far from a guarantee) or continue working hard, and spend my career as a crewman.


Sorry to hear that. Useful to know that this is your reality since crewman is near the top of my list of preferences. Thanks for your replies and best of luck!



			
				AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Keep in mind technical skills are extremely perishable.  I know a member who joined to pay off student loans following a masters in computer science.  Once his obligatory service was over he looked around and realized he would have to retrain in order to secure even an entry level position on civvie street.  He's still in.  If you want to work in your field, join in your field.


Good advice. A few people have shared similar advice with me. I feel confident (perhaps foolishly so) that I could keep my fundamental knowledge current in my downtime. I do not have any specialized certification or education near that of a Master's degree, so that would mean less investment lost due to evolving industry trends. In fact, the timing of joining the CF in a non-IT role is best now before I attempt to complete any costly certifications or post-graduate programs.



			
				AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> As far a learning to lead as a NCM before becoming an officer, it isn't required, thousands have gone directly on to become officers.  Some have even become leaders.


Yes, you are quite right. I do appreciate you raising this point. I should clarify that I am interested in the opportunities present in both corps, but as a very hands-on person, I am not in a rush to get a commission. I'd be willing to go finish my degree as a civilian and apply for an officer trade at that point, should commission from the ranks not be in the cards.

Edit: I should add that NCO leadership roles could be just as, if not more, rewarding for me than any officer positions. I am hesitant to join immediately as an officer unless I determine that the one, true MOC for me is an officer MOC. I do not wish to limit my opportunities so early on in my career, considering I have no military experience yet. My caution stems form a good friend regretting joining as a junior officer because he discovered he preferred the NCM duties.

Thanks for the great comments so far.


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## MedCorps (1 Feb 2012)

You might consider joining a combat arms unit or Signals unit as a Reserve Force Pte.  Continue to work in IT on civi street and hone the skills you want to present to the Regular Force as an officer (Sig O, or CELE ?) when the time is right.  

After you learn the ropes as a NCM, master the basic soldier skills, do some cool stuff, hump around the bush playing silly bugger, maybe get some overseas time, and accomplish what you want you can then you can apply to commission in the Regular Force, using both the skills you have mastered in the civilian world with the skills you have acquired through time in the ranks as a reservist. 

Count on spending a few years in the Reserves and committing the maximum time and effort allowable by your civilian occupation so you can get the greatest return on investment. 

Something to think about. 

MC


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## jmlane (1 Feb 2012)

Thanks MC. You do describe an appealing plan of action. I will give it consideration. Do you suggest that I pursue the Reserves because you do not think I sound like a good fit for the RegF or is there some other specific reasons?


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## MedCorps (1 Feb 2012)

No reason, I think you would do fine in the Regular Force from civilian street, based on what you have posted here.  I do however know how hard it is to commission from the ranks as I have seen really good NCM's, who would make really good officers not manage to get selected for commission for a whole bunch of not really good reasons.

I also think that the person who noted that you may suffer from IT skill fade while in the Reg F as a NCM is a real concern. This is a fast moving field, and think of all the things that have happens in your profession in the past five years. After a few years of working in the combat arms, the CF might not as be interested in your six year old computer skills as a Sig O / CELE, which might be problematic. They may see you as a 30 something Cpl / MCpl  in the combat arms (with whatever experience you have managed to obtain), as opposed to a mid-twenties, university educated, currently working IT professional. This would not pose as much of a problem if you were thinking of staying in the combat arms as an officer I suspect, but might be more difficult for you to go from the combat arms as an NCO to the Signals Branch as an officer.

MC


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## Melbatoast (1 Feb 2012)

Some excellent advice in this thread.  I would lean, in your case, toward finishing your degree if possible, and then commissioning - being in the reserves while going to school would certainly help.  Why not try ROTP?

As others have said, commissioning from the ranks is not a sure thing.  I was number one in my trade at my rank level over consecutive years, promoted in the minimum amount of time to all my NCM ranks (ending at PO2/Sgt after less than 9 years), had 2+ years of university credit, and it still took three attempts for me to get picked up.  It is intensely competitive (plus some luck and circumstance), but also to a degree a matter of not robbing Peter to pay Paul, so they really limit the numbers.  Intakes for in-service selection are normally in the single-digits per year, per occupation.

It's perfectly OK to join as an NCM, keeping an open mind about commissioning via the various in-service plans, but joining as an NCM because you're banking on getting picked up for officer eventually is more likely to lead to a bad attitude and voluntary release.  I'm not saying the latter is your attitude, but I'm trying to provide some food for thought.


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## jmlane (1 Feb 2012)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> No reason, I think you would do fine in the Regular Force from civilian street, based on what you have posted here.  I do however know how hard it is to commission from the ranks as I have seen really good NCM's, who would make really good officers not manage to get selected for commission for a whole bunch of not really good reasons.


Thanks MC. That is nice of you to say. It is a shame to hear that many who show promise are passed up for opportunities from which they and the CF would mutually benefit.



			
				MedCorps said:
			
		

> I also think that the person who noted that you may suffer from IT skill fade while in the Reg F as a NCM is a real concern. This is a fast moving field, and think of all the things that have happens in your profession in the past five years. After a few years of working in the combat arms, the CF might not as be interested in your six year old computer skills as a Sig O / CELE, which might be problematic. They may see you as a 30 something Cpl / MCpl  in the combat arms (with whatever experience you have managed to obtain), as opposed to a mid-twenties, university educated, currently working IT professional. This would not pose as much of a problem if you were thinking of staying in the combat arms as an officer I suspect, but might be more difficult for you to go from the combat arms as an NCO to the Signals Branch as an officer.


Good points re: the jump from NCO to Officer whilst also changing into a tech trade. I don't want to appear overconfident in my ability to keep up with a field I wouldn't be actively working in. I suspect that the training your receive from the CF at DP1 onward for your trade in Signals would be vastly more important that anything you did in your undergrad degree. The benefits of a degree (relating to technology) are usually that this trains you to learn something new and slightly different that builds off your previous theoretical understanding, as time efficiently as possible. I find I am pretty good at that.

That being said, I will consider the possibility of getting left behind in my own field carefully before signing up for a combat arms trade for 5+ years.



			
				Melbatoast said:
			
		

> As others have said, commissioning from the ranks is not a sure thing.  I was number one in my trade at my rank level over consecutive years, promoted in the minimum amount of time to all my NCM ranks (ending at PO2/Sgt after less than 9 years), had 2+ years of university credit, and it still took three attempts for me to get picked up.  It is intensely competitive (plus some luck and circumstance), but also to a degree a matter of not robbing Peter to pay Paul, so they really limit the numbers.  Intakes for in-service selection are normally in the single-digits per year, per occupation.
> 
> It's perfectly OK to join as an NCM, keeping an open mind about commissioning via the various in-service plans, but joining as an NCM because you're banking on getting picked up for officer eventually is more likely to lead to a bad attitude and voluntary release.  I'm not saying the latter is your attitude, but I'm trying to provide some food for thought.


Thanks Melbatoast. Your last paragraph identifies the reason I asked these questions about CFR via UTPNCM and other routes, simply because I wanted to have a good idea how feasible this would be in reality before I got my hopes up or counted on it. I am very appreciative of all the stellar advice and frank talk about the realities of some of these opportunities that the CFRC or recruiting materials may misrepresent.



			
				Melbatoast said:
			
		

> Some excellent advice in this thread.  I would lean, in your case, toward finishing your degree if possible, and then commissioning - being in the reserves while going to school would certainly help.  Why not try ROTP?


Two years ago I nearly submitted an ROTP application but decided to not follow through as the slight chance of being sent to RMC as a mature student in a committed relationship was extremely unappealing to me. I did not want to reject an offer at risk of wasting CF's time and jeopardizing future applications to the CF. After this, I was convinced by friends in the Reserve unit to apply there instead of ROTP, since the Reserves did reimburse OCdts some of their tuition costs. At this point, my main concern with joining the Reserve unit is that I'm still leaning toward submitting an application for RegF in the next month and the local CFRC won't accept an application for both PRes and RegF from me at the same time. I did not want to delay my RegF application as that ultimately seems to be the path I would like to pursue.

A Corporal friend mentioned that you can still work toward a degree in your downtime via Individual Learning Plans and get your education (slowly) subsidized in that manner. If I undertake a 3-5 year contract with no change of UTPNCM, I am still looking at a few semesters worth of credits off an already over half complete degree. DEO is always a possibly after my contract elapses if worst comes to worst. Was he misinformed or is an ILP for a few university classes pretty much accessible to any member at any after getting posted to your unit?

I am very grateful for all your contributions to this thread.


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## Melbatoast (1 Feb 2012)

Your thoughts concerning RMC are entirely reasonable and something _I_ hadn't considered in making the suggestion.

Yes, you can pursue university on your own time, and be reimbursed costs via an ILP.  Many people do it, although it's a balancing act with training and operations.

If you finish your degree while serving you can apply for the Special Commissioning Plan, although it is still a competition.  I don't know actually how "competitive" it is beyond establishing your suitability as an officer in your chosen occupation.  Maybe very, maybe not so much.  Others may weigh in.


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## jmlane (1 Feb 2012)

Interesting. I had not heard of the Special Commissioning Plan prior to your post. Thanks for new options to consider, Melbatoast.


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