# Inclusion during BMQ



## Nuge74 (28 Feb 2011)

Hi all, I have my CF medical and interview coming up in the next week or two. However I have a question regarding BMQ if and when I am enrolled into the forces (Army).
I am current high school graduate who is doing an extra semester (gr. 13) to upgrade some courses. Obviously the reason I am here is because I want to join the forces as a Sig Op.
The question: I have what is called an IEP (Individual Education Plan) which is a legal document which states my strengths and weakness along with accommodations I need in order to be successful. The only thing I have trouble with is hand writing (motor deficiency), so for this reason I have always been provided a computer/ laptop in order to provide a even playing field. My hand writing (it is *speed *not legibility) problem cannot be fixed I just do long writing assignments/ note taking via a computer. So... my concern is not being able to bring this to BMQ, because I understand that everyone in the military is a team member and there are no accommodations. I only need this for long pieces of writing, ex: in class theory that i would be learning in BMQ.
If I enter the communications branch it won't be an issue becasue it is very technological anyways, like i said it would only be neccessary for note taking during BMQ.
Does anyone have a similar situation or know someone in the Forces that has? I do not want this to be the sole prevention that stops me from being deemed  qualified, if so I will tough it out and hand write but it may upset instructors on the length of time it would take me to complete notes.

Thank you for your future responses I appreciate it very much, I will probably bring it up during my medical


----------



## ModlrMike (28 Feb 2011)

Wait for the medical and the ensuing answers. Make sure you disclose EVERYTHING. 

None of us here are going to guess what the answer will be.


----------



## Sig_Des (28 Feb 2011)

Nuge74 said:
			
		

> Obviously the reason I am here is because I want to join the forces as a Sig Op.



Why would this be obvious?



> I have what is called an IEP (Individual Education Plan) which is a legal document which states my strengths and weakness along with accommodations I need in order to be successful



Legal document from who? Federal, Provincial, School system? Regardless, don't go into a recruiting center saying "You have to let me in and allow me these exceptions because I have a legal document". They don't. Let them know about it, but don't expect that anyone has to kowtow to it.



> I only need this for long pieces of writing, ex: in class theory that i would be learning in BMQ



Last I heard, they still weren't allowing recruits to have laptops during BMQ. Notes are all done by hand. You won't have a laptop with you in the field to take your patrol orders, or on your 3's when getting your detachment orders. That's all squiggles in a little notepad.



> If I enter the communications branch it won't be an issue becasue it is very technological anyways



Don't assume. We still use paper, and lot's of it. Paper communications logs, which MUST be filled out quickly and accurately as reports come in over the radios. You will not always be able to type on a laptop.

As for the official answer, people here can talk until their faces are blue, but you need to bring it up with the Recruiting Center staff.


----------



## Nuge74 (28 Feb 2011)

Thanks for your responses. To Beadwindow 7- I meant it is obvious my interest is in joining the military (otherwise I probably wouldn't post) and it is a legal document written by the Ministry of Education that is applicable federally to any job or educational institution and is protected under my Charter Rights (equality, etc). I only stated it is a legal document so they know that it is legitimate and authorized by doctors/ specialists and not just some piece of paper.
That being said of course I would not tell the recruiters that they "have too" oblige, quite the opposite in fact, I am very hesitant and concerned about bringing up such topic for fear of coming across in that manner.
Also I understand that recruits are unable to use computers during BMQ that is my concern because unfortunately for me it is an extenuating circumstance. I in NO way want special treatment but this is a building block for me to be successful. I am capable of writing, like you said I will have to many times in the field and I know that, it will just be extremely difficult to keep up to the pace (speed) of others if were comparing.
All in all I will do whatever I am told because I want this more than anything and will work as hard as I have to, to get in; even if I have to go above and beyond the effort other would have to put in to the same task.

Thank you for your response, I hope i didn't come across as "you have to let me", because the reason I am here is to find information. I will discuss this during my interview

thanks


----------



## canada94 (28 Feb 2011)

http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/elemsec/speced/iep/iep.html

Im guessing it is "Provincially" provided as it is, the province that supports education; and from reading this, I don't want to be mean or blunt, but your making it seem as though this document protects you/ gives you the right to use a computer at BMQ. The document states "To ensure that an appropriate range of methods and strategies is used to give the student the opportunity to demonstrate the full extent of his or her achievement of the learning expectations". It also goes on to state that this is under the Education Act.

I don't believe BMQ is  involved in the Education Act. 

I am not a member just giving an opinion; that being said all the best to you and good luck! 

Mike


----------



## ballz (28 Feb 2011)

I'm not a recruiter but I have some HRM education. When it comes to the Employment Equity Act and reasonable accomodations, safety generally takes precedence over accomodation.

I suspect that when the medical folk look at different medical histories, that they are first and foremost looking to see if it would pose a hazard to you or somebody else you are working with. I am not educated in the medical field so I have no idea about you specifically.

But, if it gets past that point, then reasonable accomodations for you can be considered. I suspect your legal document doesn't state exactly what is required to accomodate your problem. It probably just acknowledges that you have it and considerations must be given?

Here's a question. Most (almost all in BMQ that I can remember) lecture classes are taught via powerpoint. Instead of having a computer, is there a reason that printing off the powerpoint slides with 3 slides per page and the little lines for taking notes beside it would be insufficient for you? This is a lot easier to accomodate, and doesn't really "outcast" you either. In fact, your course mates would probably love to have that stuff back in the barracks. I remember our staff often provided our platoon with a copy for some lessons anyway.

As to notes in the field, what's required for Sig Ops, etc... I have no idea, but for BMQ, I personally would suggest you follow that route (powerpoint slides all printed off for you at the start of the course). That certainly fits the definition of a reasonable accomodation.


----------



## ballz (28 Feb 2011)

canada94 said:
			
		

> I don't believe BMQ is  involved in the Education Act.



No, but it would be included under the Employment Equity Act, which is a piece of federal legislation. One of the groups included in the EEA are people with disabilitis, and the EEA "requires employers to engage in proactive measures to improve the employment opportunities" yada yada yada.

http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/publications/ee_faq_ee-eng.aspx


----------



## canada94 (28 Feb 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> No, but it would be included under the Employment Equity Act, which is a piece of federal legislation.



The Eduction Act is provincial legislation.


----------



## ballz (28 Feb 2011)

Thanks tips, and nowhere in any of my posts did I mention the Education Act.


----------



## MikeL (28 Feb 2011)

Not to be a dick, but Sig Op but not be the career for you, unless you just go to the IS side.  The field/tac rad side you are going to have to be able to keep up with radio traffic and write down what's being said. If you can't keep up, you shouldn't be there.  If you are in a built up CP/TOC then you most likely will have a computer.  But if you are working out of a LS on course at CFSCE it's pen and paper.  At a unit if you are working out of a LS, Bison, etc there may be a laptop, maybe not, if there isn't enough power then it's pen and paper.  Dismounted.. it's pen and paper.  Going to an O group for orders.. pen and paper.  

Even in a place with computers, there might not always be enough power, and computers can always go down.. pen and paper is always the back up.

If you could get all the powerpoints printed out on course, in the real world you won't have that luxary.


----------



## canada94 (28 Feb 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> Thanks tips, and nowhere in any of my posts did I mention the Education Act.



His "legal document" is issued by the Education Act. 

The Employment Equity Act, has specific guidelines for members of the Forces;

 http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/SOR-2002-421/page-1.html#anchorbo-ga:s_1.

Mike


----------



## Sig_Des (28 Feb 2011)

Wrt to Humand Rights arguments, Charter protection and the CF is something that a lot of people are not well-informed about. I suggest to anyone making this argument look up some of the decisions of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal where the Canadian Armed Forces is the respondent.



> Counsel for the Respondent directed the Tribunal to
> Sections 15 and 27 of the Canadian Human Rights Act.  The
> relevant portions of Section 15 read as follows:
> 
> ...



Eyesight and requirements of visual acuity are a great example. Universality of Service and all that.

To the OP, what has been said to you about our trade is straight from the horse's mouth with regards to the occupation of Sig OP. Handwriting is instrumental.

I wish you the best on the your recruiting process, but once again, the RC is where you need to go for your answers.


----------



## ballz (28 Feb 2011)

You're really starting to frustrate me.



			
				canada94 said:
			
		

> His "legal document" is issued by the Education Act.



His legal document was issued by the Minister of Education. That is probably because at the time, he was in school, and that was the purpose of him using it. Plenty of people with disabilities get their legal documentation when they're in school, because that is where the accomodations start to occur (they are usually similar to the accomodations they will require in the workplace, e.g. a wheelchair ramp). Just because they finish school doesn't mean they're no longer disabled, so why would the document no longer hold water? It still went through the proper legal and medical channels to prove there was a legit disability that required accomodation, the Minister's signature is only to verify that. There are numerous people that could sign off on that document, just like there are numerous people that can stamp and sign my leave pass when I want to claim LTA. The Minister of Education is one of them.



			
				canada94 said:
			
		

> The Employment Equity Act, has specific guidelines for members of the Forces;
> 
> http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/SOR-2002-421/page-1.html#anchorbo-ga:s_1.
> 
> Mike



Thanks, your link basically says that the EEA applies to the Forces except when it would affect operational effectiveness. That's what these questions and answers are all about, whether he can be operational effective as a Sig Op. That is not my call or judgement to make, I am merely pointing out the CF's legal obligation to make reasonable accomodations for him and his training and employment *IF* it is deemed that he is not a liability to himself or someone else. So what's your point?

I'll tell you mine since you clearly don't get it. You're waiting for your high school diploma, and I'm waiting a few more months for my Bachelor's of Business Administration. I've already completed the Human Resources courses required for my degree, and my major project on my last course was about Occupational Health & Safety, and guess what? The EEA and OH&S are always bumping heads, so it involved all this type of babble.

My point, I probably know what I'm talking about and you probably don't.


----------



## canada94 (28 Feb 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> You're really starting to frustrate me.
> 
> His legal document was issued by the Minister of Education. That is probably because at the time, he was in school, and that was the purpose of him using it. Plenty of people with disabilities get their legal documentation when they're in school, because that is where the accomodations start to occur (they are usually similar to the accomodations they will require in the workplace, e.g. a wheelchair ramp). Just because they finish school doesn't mean they're no longer disabled, so why would the document no longer hold water? It still went through the proper legal and medical channels to prove there was a legit disability that required accomodation, the Minister's signature is only to verify that. There are numerous people that could sign off on that document, just like there are numerous people that can stamp and sign my leave pass when I want to claim LTA. The Minister of Education is one of them.
> 
> ...



No I guess not.

Mike


----------



## Nuge74 (28 Feb 2011)

ballz said:
			
		

> is there a reason that printing off the powerpoint slides with 3 slides per page and the little lines for taking notes beside it would be insufficient for you?



ABSOLUTELY! that is also one of the preferred  methods of accommodation, i just didn't bring it up, thank you.
Although after looking over the files I will be giving the medical officer, what technically is the legal binding document is the IPRC (Identification, Placement and Review Committee) Statement of Decision. To canada94 I am in no way trying to make it seem like a have a right over others towards using technology, if possible I would simply like to utilize what is going to make me the most successful solider I can be for myself and the Canadian forces, and to -Skeletor- not offense taken but the reason I want to enter Sig Op is because aside from hand writing (which i CAN do if neccessary) it is taylormade towards my strengths.

thank you everyone for your input all comments are appreciated and thanks to those who posted links. I will keep this thread informed on what the CFRC tells me.


----------



## ballz (28 Feb 2011)

Beadwindow 7 said:
			
		

> Wrt to Humand Rights arguments, Charter protection and the CF is something that a lot of people are not well-informed about. I suggest to anyone making this argument look up some of the decisions of the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal where the Canadian Armed Forces is the respondent.
> 
> Eyesight and requirements of visual acuity are a great example. Universality of Service and all that.
> 
> ...



Yes, they are great examples of bona fide occupational requirements, especially because within the CF they vary from trade to trade. This writing disability may be acceptable for "x" trade but not "y" trade, or it might be unacceptable or all trades. 

I would assume the OPs disability is not a safety issue like the medical problems we are prone to hearing about (aka diabetes), but whether or not he meets those bona fide occupational requirements. Since those requirements can vary from trade to trade, he may be able to join the CF, but maybe not as a Sig Op (based on the Sigs guys posting in this thread and that handwriting is instrumental in their trade).... or, it could be that a certain level of writing skills is considered a bona fide occupational for ALL trades, and he could be denied on that basis.

If he can join the CF, then the reasonable accomodations come in. 

I don't know anything about the medical/recruiting areas, but that's the basics of the legal stuff that needs to be considered by those in said areas.

As always, apply and find out :-\


----------



## exgunnertdo (1 Mar 2011)

I'll throw a few things in here, from the training system's perspective.

True, we are not required to accommodate in the same manner as other employers due to bona fide occupational requirements based on Universality of Service. How much we must accommodate on this particular issue (learning difficulties/challenges) is still grey. Other aspects of EE like physical disabilities, it's more clear. We have medical standards that describe where the line is (like the eyesight example).

Learning difficulties don't fall neatly into a medical category like vision or hearing do, for example.  Someone can have a learning difficulty and still pass the medical and the CFAT.  The next hurdle is passing the training. While training establishments may provide you some support to overcome learning challenges, in the end you must pass various performance checks that prove you can do the job. Without accommodations. If the performance check says that you must transcribe a message by hand (because when you go to do the real job you won't have a computer) then you must be able to do it by hand. If you must be able to take down verbal orders onto a notepad, then that's the test. You can't pull out the IEP for testing. You might be able to get support in the classroom but not for the test. Our training system is performance oriented - meaning the proof is in the "doing", not the "knowing."  If you can't meet the standard required to perform the job, you will not pass the training. 

In short - the system can accommodate you to learn how to do the job, but cannot accommodate you in doing the job itself.


----------



## Nuge74 (1 Mar 2011)

exgunnertdo said:
			
		

> You might be able to get support in the classroom but not for the test.



Thank you for your answer... I am trying to make it very clear that ALL i need is IN CLASSROOM support. Along with my motor deficiency i am also identified gifted in verbal comprehension, so I have many talents to bring to the team to make up for others. Ultimately I want to serve, where ever I am needed in whatever way possible


----------

