# MP Unit Re-Org



## garb811 (11 Jan 2007)

SUB: ORGANIZATION MESSAGE - MILITARY POLICE UNITS

PAGE 2 RCCPJAW4005 UNCLAS
1. THE MND HAS AUTHORIZED THE DISBANDMENT OF THE FOLLOWING UNITS AS 
UNITS OF THE CANADIAN FORCES:
A. 1 MILITARY POLICE PLATOON DEPT ID 2122 MOO 2006057
B. 2 MILITARY POLICE PLATOON DEPT ID 2123 MOO 2006058
C. 5 MILITARY POLICE PLATOON DEPT ID 2124 MOO 2006059 AND
D. 2 MILITARY POLICE COMPANY DEPT ID 6321 MOO 2006060
2. THE MND HAS AUTHORIZED THE ORGANIZATION OF THE FOLLOWING AS UNITS 
OF THE CANADIAN FORCES EMBODIED IN THE REGULAR FORCE:
A. 1 MILITARY POLICE UNIT DEPT ID 6476 ALLOCATED TO 1 AREA SUPPORT 
GROUP
B. 2 MILITARY POLICE UNIT DEPT ID 6477 ALLOCATED TO 2 AREA SUPPORT 
GROUP
C. 3 MILITARY POLICE UNIT DEPT ID 6478 ALLOCATED TO LAND FORCE 
ATLANTIC AREA AND
D. 5 MILITARY POLICE UNIT DEPT ID 6479 ALLOCATED TO 5 AREA SUPPORT 
GROUP
3. CHANGES ARE EFFECTIVE ON RECEIPT. LFC STAFF SHALL SUBMIT DRAFT 
ROLES FOR THE NEW UNITS TO DDSM 2 FOR CFOO PROMULGATION.
4. THIS ORDER IS ISSUED ON BEHALF OF THE CHIEF OF THE DEFENCE STAFF
END OF ENGLISH TEXT/DEBUT DU TEXTE FRANCAIS

This will affect all Land Force MPs, including the Reserves, as each respective MP Unit will assume Command of all Land Force MP resources in its Area with the Field Platoons being OPCON back to their Brigades.

This is truly a sad day in my book.  For what it's worth, not that the CFPM ever seems to listen to my advice, I think this yet another step in the wrong direction by the Branch.


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## Screw (11 Jan 2007)

Hey MP,

I dont really see a difference. Although Ive never been any good at reading this stuff. What is your objection?

Screw


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## Poppa (11 Jan 2007)

MP 00161 said:
			
		

> This is truly a sad day in my book.  For what it's worth, not that the CFPM ever seems to listen to my advice, I think this yet another step in the wrong direction by the Branch.



Funny, I (and some others) have been saying this all along. BTW the CFPM dosen't listen to me either.


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## George Wallace (11 Jan 2007)

Looks a little like there is something in the pipes about forming 3 Bde or 3 CMBG.


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## Mortar guy (11 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Looks a little like there is something in the pipes about forming 3 Bde or 3 CMBG.



Why do you say that? LFAA has had 3 ASG for a while so maybe the number is related to that rather than to some new Bde.

MG


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## George Wallace (11 Jan 2007)

For the same reason that 3 ASG has shown up in the organization lists.  Slowly we are recreating a Bde org.  Sort of streamlines things when an official announcement comes down the tubes.  No confusion who will be members.  Just a logical step.  Perhaps the Cdn Gds are coming back..... ;D

Perhaps, if we start to see the recreation/reorg/renaming of some other Units to become 3 Svc Bn or 3 CS Bn and 3 GS Bn, 3 CER, 3 Fd Amb, 3 HQ & Sigs, 3 RCHA, etc. in Gagetown, the obvious will happen.


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## dapaterson (11 Jan 2007)

George:

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one...

and re: The MPs: These changes will present a challenge, particularly in creating a single unit with dispersed elemetns, some Regular Force and some Reserve.  I hope that the recent successes in growing MPs within the Reserve will not be lost as the new units attempt to find thier footing.


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## PQLUR (11 Jan 2007)

Would 30 MP Coy, in Halifax (Lower Sackville) still be 30 MP Coy?


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## MPSHIELD (12 Jan 2007)

PQLUR said:
			
		

> Would 30 MP Coy, in Halifax (Lower Sackville) still be 30 MP Coy?



Unless they decide to change the number designation. My unit is 15 MP Coy which falls under 1 ASG. With this new MP formations (effect i guess now), It will be a sub unit. I will now belong to 12 of 15 of 1 MPU (12 PL 15 COY of 1 MPU). My understanding is that our Coy is keeping our number and that they are keeping 30 MP Coy's number as Coy designator but the "new unit" will be 3 MPU. In other words, when someone within 30 MP Coy is asked what unit they are with, they will now respond with 3 MP unit. The sub unit will be 30 MP Coy. Hope that make sense- it is way to late right now.

Edit: With to Will


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## dapaterson (12 Jan 2007)

TACMP - that's exactly the case.  15 MP and 30 MP were not "units" in the legal sense of the word; they lacked ministerial organizational orders (MOOs) and CFOOs.  Only 2 MP Coy in LFCA was a unit in the Reserve Force (legally speaking).

Now Reserve MPs are part of the MP Units, which are vested in the Regular Force.  Which leads to a number of interesting implications in terms of the applicability of the Code of Service Discipline, among other issues...


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## MPSHIELD (12 Jan 2007)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> TACMP - that's exactly the case.  15 MP and 30 MP were not "units" in the legal sense of the word; they lacked ministerial organizational orders (MOOs) and CFOOs.  Only 2 MP Coy in LFCA was a unit in the Reserve Force (legally speaking).
> 
> Now Reserve MPs are part of the MP Units, which are vested in the Regular Force.  Which leads to a number of interesting implications in terms of the applicability of the Code of Service Discipline, among other issues...



dapaterson -yes you are correct, 15 and 30 were technically non existant. 2 MP Coy (Res Field) was the only "real reserve field Company" or "legal" unit. Despite having a name and a flag, on paper, we don't really exist. Even the archives at NDHQ might not mention our unit cause we did not have a UIC, CFOO etc. We have been "borrowing" UIC's etc. We have been waiting for our CFOO to get signed.

It will be very interesting to see what the future holds.


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## garb811 (15 Jan 2007)

Screw said:
			
		

> Hey MP,
> 
> I dont really see a difference. Although Ive never been any good at reading this stuff. What is your objection?
> 
> Screw


Well, the short answer, put mildly, is the majority of the MP Branch treats the field with an attitude of beneficial indifference for the Reg Force Pls and one of outright neglect and disdain with regard to the Militia.  The majority of the Branch isn't interested in this for any reason other than bringing all MP under the direct Command and Control of the Branch, it's a people and power grab.

In the past, the Pls greatly benefited by being a full fledged member of the Bde family, although small in size and with a Capt as the CO, the Pl was a Unit and the CO was a CO.  Now, instead of a CO of a Bde Unit at the table, it is going to be an OC of an Attached Unit, hardly the same thing.  The Pls will also find that it they are no longer included in many of the activities and conferences they formerly benefited from (ie.  No reason to have the Pls attend the Bde Adjt conferences anymore yet that is where a huge amount of information was passed and you can bet the equivalent info (and support) won’t be flowing from MPU HQ).  Other losses are direct control over tasks, individual training and access to the Career Manager to name a few of the more significant ones.

The big winner in this is going to be the APM shop (now MPU HQ), which is sure to see yet another increase in numbers for no real reason, much as happened when the G MP Coys stood up.  The Pls aren't gaining anything out of this other than a layer of HQ which will not even be remotely interested in the field as the vast majority of their day to day issues are going to be related to Garrison policing; its input into Pl life is mainly going to be Administrative burden.   If you get the wrong personalities posted into the MPU, life is going to become very interesting indeed for the Pl... 

My forecast (and I pray that I'm wrong but since it was continually tried before the merge I'm not really hopeful) is that it won't be long before the MP Pls become dumping grounds and "reserve" Pls for the Guardhouses of the respective Garrisons.  It’s not like the Pls have anything to do while in Garrison but PT, vehicle maintenance and mopping floors so the Guardhouse might as well benefit from all those idle bodies to send folks on course and leave... 

As for the prognosis of how this is going to impact the Militia MP, I'll leave that to Poppa, should he feel up to it.


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## 17thRecceSgt (15 Jan 2007)

Do  you really still call them Militia MPs?

Most everyone else is Reserve's now.  Army Reserve, Naval Reserve, AF Reserve.  Primary Reserve.  Supplementary Reserve...

Militia to me is those anti-government folks that hid out in the woods down in the US with BDUs on and stuff like that...

I am not sure, other than say, loosing the title of CO for the MPO, how this is necessarily a bad thing.  I am not an MP, so the obvious stuff doesn't jump out at me, but it seems like the MPO will be acting much a a Support Arms commander then?


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## garb811 (15 Jan 2007)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Do  you really still call them Militia MPs?
> 
> Most everyone else is Reserve's now.  Army Reserve, Naval Reserve, AF Reserve.  Primary Reserve.  Supplementary Reserve...



The Branch?  No.  Me? Yep.  >


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## Poppa (15 Jan 2007)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Do  you really still call them Militia MPs?





			
				MP 00161 said:
			
		

> The Branch?  No.  Me? Yep.  >



Well, to be honest..most of the branch does as well.
I'll post my objections later from a mil....sorry PRes POV


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## George Wallace (15 Jan 2007)

Colloquialisms will always be there.  Long used terms are often used, although there are newer terms.  Why are we still using the term RcEME when we talk about Gun Plumbers', Veh Techs, Welders, etc.?


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## garb811 (16 Jan 2007)

Agreed, particularly when the term "Militia" has a long and honourable history in Canada, notwithstanding the wingnuts south of the border 

Using Militia MP is particularly useful for me on here because there are very distinct differences between our Air Reserve MP and the vast majority of our Army Reserve MP and how we train and employ them.  It’s much faster for me to type "Militia" than "Army Primary Reserve" when focusing on that particular element of our Branch; call me a lazy traditionalist.


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## 17thRecceSgt (16 Jan 2007)

Ahh.  Ok, that makes sense now.

 ;D


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## Poppa (17 Jan 2007)

I'll try now and expand a bit on what MP00161 was saying from our point of view. Although, when the last Army PM broached this subject and people far smarter than me were uncomfortable we were told that we weren't team players and if you don't want to be a part of it then quit.

Big thing is succession. We are no longer in command of our own destiny. There is very little progression. For example I cannot be as a reservist the CO of my unit. Full Stop. This is due to the fact that I am not specially appointed under 156 of the NDA. Now some on this site may say "big deal, I won't be the CO of my unit." However, the chance is there regardless of how small every officer cadet has a chance to be the CO. My command will top out at the Coy level. The issue of a SM still needs to be worked out and there is the possibility of a reserve MWO being the Sergeants Major but that will come down the pipe.

Budget. As a reserve MP Coy we had our own budget and we were responsible for paying for O&M, courses etc... just like every other unit out there. Now all monies are pooled into this MP Unit (which let's be honest is a sneaky way of calling us a MP battalion). Will we have enough for exercises, trg, etc...etc...? Or will some cash emergency at a local guardhouse put the kibosh on a ex being planned? I doubt it I hope not but the possibility is there.

We do different jobs..our roles are different. They just are. I'm not going to spout off about us putting the M into MP or the Regs being little m big P. We're different. Different mind set and unless our role is clarified there will be friction. I don't want us to become an auxiliary police force. That's not why I joined the Army. What it comes down to is this we are MP soldiers and we need to train as such and we need a chain of command committed to that end.

Now all is not doom and gloom. Some of the pluses are now I have more resources to draw on. Like the MP variant G-Wagons, guns..etc...More hockey players for the Brockville Tournament.

Regardless of my misgivings, I'm an Army Officer and will carry on to the best of my abilities all the while keeping my soldiers best interest at heart.

Hopefully, I've shed some light on this. Any specific questions just ask.

I'll actually sign my name to this
Jason Croswell


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## CombatMP265 (6 Feb 2007)

Poppa said:
			
		

> Big thing is succession. We are no longer in command of our own destiny. There is very little progression. For example I cannot be as a reservist the CO of my unit. Full Stop. This is due to the fact that I am not specially appointed under 156 of the NDA. Now some on this site may say "big deal, I won't be the CO of my unit." However, the chance is there regardless of how small every officer cadet has a chance to be the CO. My command will top out at the Coy level. The issue of a SM still needs to be worked out and there is the possibility of a reserve MWO being the Sergeants Major but that will come down the pipe.


The idea is that the Area Provost Marshall will be the CO. Namely, all area MP's fall under the same boss, just like the Regular Force. As for reserve OCdts, they can aspire to be OC's. Sorry to say but reserve training is very ill equipped to train a CO for a "MP Battalion".



> Budget. As a reserve MP Coy we had our own budget and we were responsible for paying for O&M, courses etc... just like every other unit out there. Now all monies are pooled into this MP Unit (which let's be honest is a sneaky way of calling us a MP battalion). Will we have enough for exercises, trg, etc...etc...? Or will some cash emergency at a local guardhouse put the kibosh on a ex being planned? I doubt it I hope not but the possibility is there.


Way off, depending on your funding model and your conditions of unit service etc. the reserve training funding budget can only increase if your using just the IBTS budget 37.5 days/year. If anything, your gaining experienced policing instructors and "pooled" equipment/material resources/OJT opportunities. 


> We do different jobs..our roles are different. They just are. I'm not going to spout off about us putting the M into MP or the Regs being little m big P. We're different. Different mind set and unless our role is clarified there will be friction. I don't want us to become an auxiliary police force. That's not why I joined the Army. What it comes down to is this we are MP soldiers and we need to train as such and we need a chain of command committed to that end.


Maybe instead of looking as it as a negative, lets look at it as a positive. Lets look at the facts: Most Reg Force MP's join because they wanna be cops (hence all the releases when lateral transfers are accepted), most young reservists join because they eventually want to be cops. So as a military member I see it as this. I train them as a functional soldier capable of doing field skills while introducing them to basic military policing skills. Result? Above average recruit for Regular Force MP selection that benefits the service the most. 



> Now all is not doom and gloom. Some of the pluses are now I have more resources to draw on. Like the MP variant G-Wagons, guns..etc...More hockey players for the Brockville Tournament.


G-Wagon/Nyala Training is available to reservists, its a matter of funding from your CO to send people to train.



> Regardless of my misgivings, I'm an Army Officer and will carry on to the best of my abilities all the while keeping my soldiers best interest at heart.
> 
> Hopefully, I've shed some light on this. Any specific questions just ask.
> 
> ...


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## lawandorder (7 Feb 2007)

CombatMp265 I guess you haven't looked at the Reserve MP QL3 course, the policing skills learned are VERY limited.  While we may have gained a good asset in terms of policing instructors, WHY do we need them? I don't carry Tin.  I as a reserve MP have no additional power then say a Infantrymen or a Cook when it comes to the law or military law. 

 You mention that introducing us to basic military police skills will create better candidates for Regular Force MP selection.  Perhaps, although most of the law portions of the RQL3 I already new from my diploma program which is required for consideration for a Reg force MP selection (Yes and I know the buts and exceptions to that rule as well)

Who say I even want to be a Reg Force MP???  Not many people I know in the trade want to make the jump from reserve to reg.  The Reserve Platoons are CS platoons, not garrison units.  Nor should the pretend to be.  So we may have gained a whole lot of assets, I'd say 80% of them are moot to the reservists world.


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## garb811 (7 Feb 2007)

CombatMP265 said:
			
		

> The idea is that the Area Provost Marshall will be the CO. Namely, all area MP's fall under the same boss, just like the Regular Force.


Actually, prior to this, all Reg Force MP did not work for the same boss.  MPs in MP Pls worked for the CO of the MP Pl who worked for the Bde Comd who reported to the Area Commander…  The only link the MP Pls had to the MP Branch was via the Tech Net.  The APM/CO Grn MP Coy did not exercise Command over MP Pls, and until Spring 2005, the APM only acted as an advisor to the Area Commander, s/he had no command authority over any MP resources other than the personnel in his shop…  Same for the LF PM, he acted in an advisory capacity and didn’t have the staff to exercise Command and Control even if he wanted to.  I know that one Area was operating under a different model where the APM “controlled” all the LF MP in the area but that arrangement had no official authority, much like when Samson assumed command of the Borden Guardhouse while she was the Commandant of CFSIS.



			
				CombatMP265 said:
			
		

> As for reserve OCdts, they can aspire to be OC's. Sorry to say but reserve training is very ill equipped to train a CO for a "MP Battalion".


I don’t want to put words into his mouth but I don’t recall Poppa saying a Reserve MPO should be the CO of the MPU.  What he did say was he couldn’t be the CO of his Unit, which used to be a Reserve MP Coy.  Of course (current) Reserve MPO training is unable to train a Reservist to be the CO of a Reg Force unit because he is legally unable to provide oversight on police duties being performed by personnel in his unit (notwithstanding the deployment of a Reserve MPO to Bosnia as the TFPM…).  An OC is a much different beast than being a CO and I don’t blame him for feeling a bit put out that the rug has been pulled out from under him in regards to that.  

Even the hope of a Reserve MP becoming the Sergeant Major of the MPU is really only a faint and unrealistic hope, as the way it “should” work is the CSM should be the senior technical expert for the area, although many MPO like to think that their vast policing experience makes them the true experts.



			
				CombatMP265 said:
			
		

> Way off, depending on your funding model and your conditions of unit service etc. the reserve training funding budget can only increase if your using just the IBTS budget 37.5 days/year.


Admittedly I’m not an expert on funding for the Reserve world but isn’t 37.5 days per year the norm?  If so, how is the Reserve training budget going to increase with the amalgamation?  The MPU certainly isn’t going to get any more funds than that to train it’s Reserve component and you can certainly bet the CO isn’t going to sacrifice his Reg Force Police Ops O&M and Capital budget to increase the training days for his Reservists.



			
				CombatMP265 said:
			
		

> If anything, your gaining experienced policing instructors and "pooled" equipment/material resources/OJT opportunities.


Agreed, but…  The implication that you will have much greater access to those items is tenuous at best.  For instance, 1 MP Pl equipment is not going to be of much benefit to 12 MP Pl as they will be unable to easily access it.  Instructors, “pooled” equipment/material resources/OJT opportunities are great in theory but much harder to pull off in reality.  Although I had nothing but good experiences in lending equipment to Reserve Pls, kit breaks even with the best care and it won’t take long for resentment to build within Reg Force Pls when their kit starts being returned broken from weekend Ex’s.  It was hard enough to build a sense of ownership of the vehicles and kit when the Reg Force Pls were the sole users, imagine how much harder that is going to be when the Pl is continually being ordered to lend their stuff to successive Reserve Exs?  Of course, the same will be true in Reverse when 1 MP Pl returns busted Milverados which they had borrowed to move the Bde down to Shilo and there is suddenly a shortage of vehicles for the weekend Ex.  



			
				CombatMP265 said:
			
		

> Maybe instead of looking as it as a negative, lets look at it as a positive.


We could but that wouldn’t be half as much fun.  >



			
				CombatMP265 said:
			
		

> Result? Above average recruit for Regular Force MP selection that benefits the service the most.


How to put this delicately…although I can think of several outstanding Reserve MPs who I would bring into the Reg Force in a heart beat, I can also think of many more who I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole.  The unfortunate thing is most of the ones I think would be outstanding candidates usually didn’t want to transfer to the Reg Force whereas the other ones…

You've got some very valid points and maybe I will be proven wrong when this shotgun marriage produces beautiful offspring.  Of course, I could also be sitting in my chair in the T-Bird 20 years from now going, "Ahh yeah, bringing back independent MP Pls eh?  I remember back when I was young..."



			
				Poppa said:
			
		

> I'll try now and expand a bit on what MP00161 was saying from our point of view. Although, when the last Army PM broached this subject and people far smarter than me were uncomfortable we were told that we weren't team players and if you don't want to be a part of it then quit.


Ahh, the good ol’ Patricia Samson motivational leadership lecture!  Didn’t know any of her disciples were still around.


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## dapaterson (7 Feb 2007)

There are a raft ideas that were not fully considered in creating combined Reg/Res units.  Two immediately spring to mind:

(1) Honoraries.  Since the new units are embodied in the Regular Force, the Res MP Coys will have no entitlement to Honorary Lieutenant Colonels (CFAO 3-4, Annex D for those who are interested).

(2) Code of Service Discipline.  Since the Reserve MPs will now be serving with a Regular Force unit. the National Defence Act stipulates that they are now subject to the CSD at all times... a significant increase in their liability.

Interesting issues to be resolved, to say the least...


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## CombatMP265 (7 Feb 2007)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> (2) Code of Service Discipline.  Since the Reserve MPs will now be serving with a Regular Force unit. the National Defence Act stipulates that they are now subject to the CSD at all times... a significant increase in their liability.
> 
> Interesting issues to be resolved, to say the least...


I think your refering to the Military Police Code of Conduct (MPCC)? The QR&O's still are in effect under the label of "Primary Reservist. Correct me if I'm Wrong.


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## CombatMP265 (7 Feb 2007)

MP 00161 said:
			
		

> Admittedly I’m not an expert on funding for the Reserve world but isn’t 37.5 days per year the norm?  If so, how is the Reserve training budget going to increase with the amalgamation?  The MPU certainly isn’t going to get any more funds than that to train it’s Reserve component and you can certainly bet the CO isn’t going to sacrifice his Reg Force Police Ops O&M and Capital budget to increase the training days for his Reservists.


With the integration of the Reg's/Reserves you give more ammo to the reserve unit to turn around and justify to higher that you are indeed part of a regular force unit. But most importantly their role in the current system. In my units case, we are part of a Immediate Response Unit for natural disasters, etc. So that further justify's our funding to better train our people to respond to emergencys.


> Agreed, but…  The implication that you will have much greater access to those items is tenuous at best.  For instance, 1 MP Pl equipment is not going to be of much benefit to 12 MP Pl as they will be unable to easily access it.  Instructors, “pooled” equipment/material resources/OJT opportunities are great in theory but much harder to pull off in reality.  Although I had nothing but good experiences in lending equipment to Reserve Pls, kit breaks even with the best care and it won’t take long for resentment to build within Reg Force Pls when their kit starts being returned broken from weekend Ex’s.  It was hard enough to build a sense of ownership of the vehicles and kit when the Reg Force Pls were the sole users, imagine how much harder that is going to be when the Pl is continually being ordered to lend their stuff to successive Reserve Exs?  Of course, the same will be true in Reverse when 1 MP Pl returns busted Milverados which they had borrowed to move the Bde down to Shilo and there is suddenly a shortage of vehicles for the weekend Ex.


Ok, kit breakage, etc. is an issue of leadership. Military kit, is military kit regardless of designation. While reservists are seen as 'weekend warriors' and 'kids' from the reg force. A condition is conventionally given to to Officers/NCO's from higher that they are not to be treated like so. I know it sounds confusing, but my theme is that "they should be no different" and that if a reservist or even reg force treats equipment without "inherent task risk" associated with that equipments role they should be held accountable for its breakage, etc.


> How to put this delicately…although I can think of several outstanding Reserve MPs who I would bring into the Reg Force in a heart beat, I can also think of many more who I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole.  The unfortunate thing is most of the ones I think would be outstanding candidates usually didn’t want to transfer to the Reg Force whereas the other ones…


Apples and Oranges. I've been trying to avoid this debate but its enevitable. Reg Force are know to exert superior policing skills and the reserve force is known the exert superior soldiering skills (from the LF PM himself when I talked to him). But its an issue of assigned task that goes well into the history and varying roles of MP's across all branches over the years. I think this deserves a thread of its own myself and will leave it at that.[/quote] 



> You've got some very valid points and maybe I will be proven wrong when this shotgun marriage produces beautiful offspring.  Of course, I could also be sitting in my chair in the T-Bird 20 years from now going, "Ahh yeah, bringing back independent MP Pls eh?  I remember back when I was young..."


 You've had some good points yourself, infact I don't think I can answer evey question. So I'm offering any MP here to give questions they'd like answered by the Provost Marshall himself as I'm attending the MP Symposium this month in Cornwall, ONT where there is an open forum. Although I'll run them by my OC first, to see if I get the answer sooner.


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## garb811 (8 Feb 2007)

DAP:  That is an excellent point and there is also Sec 33, Liability to Serve, to consider.  I didn't even think any of these issues before you brought them up and I'm inclined to let the legal boffins ponder them as they're making my brain hurt.



			
				CombatMP265 said:
			
		

> I think your refering to the Military Police Code of Conduct (MPCC)? The QR&O's still are in effect under the label of "Primary Reservist. Correct me if I'm Wrong.


The Code of Conduct only applies to MP appointed pursuant to Sec 156 of the NDA.  In essence, DAP has pointed out there is a very strong possiblity that once the merge is official, all Army Res MP will be subject to the CSD 24/7, anywhere in the world, just like Reg Force pers.  Another possible consequence which the legal folks will need to figure out is if you will also gain the Liability to Serve inherent with Reg Force service as the Sec 33 of the NDA reads, in part,:



> 33. (1) The regular force, all units and other elements thereof and all officers and non-commissioned members thereof are at all times liable to perform any lawful duty.


This might seem like a bit of a stretch but I've seen other changes have just as many unintended consequences, ie.  the MPCC suddenly thinking it may have jurisdiction to investigate treatment of persons detained by the CF during combat because their mandate includes oversight of "custody" even though said custody is not being performed pursuant to Police Ops.

NDA reference for DAP's comment is:



> Persons subject to Code of Service Discipline
> 
> 60. (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:
> 
> ...



May you live in interesting times...


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## garb811 (3 Mar 2007)

CombatMP265 said:
			
		

> With the integration of the Reg's/Reserves you give more ammo to the reserve unit to turn around and justify to higher that you are indeed part of a regular force unit. But most importantly their role in the current system. In my units case, we are part of a Immediate Response Unit for natural disasters, etc. So that further justify's our funding to better train our people to respond to emergencys.


I'm still not sure how this supports your contention that this is going to increase the training budget as you would (could/should?) have made a similar case while the unit was independent.  At the end of the day, "x" number of dollars is going to be assigned to the MPU to complete "y" tasks and training and those are going to be the sum of the previous indepndent amounts, if not a little less due to the MPU taking on some of the administrative burden of the independent units and therefore a bit of the pie to fund that.



> While reservists are seen as 'weekend warriors' and 'kids' from the reg force. A condition is conventionally given to to Officers/NCO's from higher that they are not to be treated like so.



Really?   :    I had extensive dealings with Reserve MP for quite a few years and not once did I get direction like this “from higher”, either from inside or outside my unit.  The only time Army Res MP were ever treated like “weekend warriors” or “kids” was when they deserved it.  Those who came out and gave their all were treated as professionals and with respect by myself and, by extension, the rest of the unit.  We did have our share of problems, particularly in relation to Res MP not being able to understand that they were essentially "ride-alongs" for Police Ops as well as some others, but for the most part everyone worked together as a team without too much fuss and at the end of the day, most people learned a little something from everyone. 



> Ok, kit breakage, etc. is an issue of leadership. Military kit, is military kit regardless of designation. …I know it sounds confusing, but my theme is that "they should be no different" and that if a reservist or even reg force treats equipment without "inherent task risk" associated with that equipments role they should be held accountable for its breakage, etc.



Agreed, kit will indeed break, even under the best care and maintenance.  My point was that members are more apt to take "personal responsibility" for the kit when they have a sense of "personal ownership" with it.  I have seen both ends of the spectrum in a unit; when vehicles and equipment are treated as a “pool” with anyone and everyone using it, the effort spent on preventative maintenance is very low because the feeling is “why should I put the effort in when I’m not even going to be using the thing…”  On the other hand, when Bloggins knows he is responsible for CS 12C and that’s his ride for the next 12 months, suddenly Bloggins takes a very active interest in how 12C is maintained.  As an added benefit for Bloggins, he also has the ability to put some TLC touches in there…



> Apples and Oranges. I've been trying to avoid this debate but its enevitable. Reg Force are know to exert superior policing skills and the reserve force is known the exert superior soldiering skills (from the LF PM himself when I talked to him). But its an issue of assigned task that goes well into the history and varying roles of MP's across all branches over the years. I think this deserves a thread of its own myself and will leave it at that.



This issue was not inevitable and was being avoided.  I was not comparing the soldiering and/or policing ability between a Reservist and a Reg Force member.  What I was doing was stating that whereas in your view this amalgamation would result in a pool of above average recruits for the Reg Force, my experience had been that most Army Reserve MP who had expressed an interest about joining the Reg Force were, in my opinion, less than attractive candidates.  Other than that, I will only point out that I would hardly consider the LF PM as the font of knowledge in relation to who has superior soldering skills as in all my time in a Field Pl, I never saw a LF PM anywhere near an Ex or Op I was involved in and I would posit that his comments were either made to be dipolomatic or were based upon third and/or fourth hand knowledge.

Edit:  Spelling.


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## Dissident (9 Mar 2007)

There is no doubt in my mind that we are loosing more than we are gaining, as members of reserve Coy now attached to a reg force unit.

It is pretty easy to picture something like this:"You plan on spending how much on a one week training event down in South Dakota? Hmmm, this money would be much better spent on [insert reg MP pet project or duty]. Don't worry, we will make it up by having you train for 3 weeks in Wainright with [cast of unenthusiastic, unwilling or field untrained reg MPs]. 
[me=Dissident]shudders[/me]

Again, a leader must accept change and be a positive force. I will make the most of it. 

And really, I would much ratter be a second class citizen in an all MP organization, than be part of the SVC Bn again... (At least on the Vancouver side, apparently Victoria fared much better)


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