# Officer going NCM... does IAP BOTP CAP count for anything?



## Goose (9 Jan 2009)

Hi- before I get my head chewed off, I HAVE searched quite thoroughly for answers to these questions and haven't been able to find them. What I have found seems to be either seriously outdated or from the wrong perspective, so if anyone has the information that I am looking for, it would be greatly appreciated. All of the information I could find in other threads were PLQ to IAP/BOTP, but I am wondering what the current course equivalencies are right now for IAP BOTP if one were to resign commission (please, no rants on what a 'bad idea' this is, I've heard it all) and go NCM. At the same time, is it a good idea to do CAP before you do this and get the leadership training under your belt? Is CAP equivalent to anything NCM' side? I don't need an analysis of 'goals and life direction' here, I'm genuinely curious about how the two sides of this coin line up, if they do at all. Thanks so much anyone who can help... I've been asking around for quite some time but no-one seems to know the answers, just their opinions. - sorry, just read over a few things, this thread should be under the training umbrella- i don't know how to move it, my apologies


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## Lard of the Dance (9 Jan 2009)

I have to ask, why exactly is it a bad idea to become an NCM?


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Jan 2009)

To keep this on topic...if you are able to access the DIN/DWAN, this link might be helpful:

Accreditation and Equivalency program 

If you go to the PLQ link, you will see where it says *For example, it is also possible for NCMs to be granted CF PLQ equivalency after having successfully completed BOTP.* 

There is contact info for CDA listed, if you don't have DIN access, I PMd you it.


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## Goose (9 Jan 2009)

I definately didn't say it was a bad idea to be an NCM- in fact, I said that I was thinking of doing just that. Thanks eye-in-the-sky. Im not able to get on the DIN just yet, but will be able to sometime next week. What I'd really like to know though is if someone were considering this, should they throw in the memo before or after CAP- would it just be a rediculously hard waste of time, or would it help in the long run.


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## CFR FCS (9 Jan 2009)

Jane~Doe,
Logically if BOTP is usually found to be equivalent to PLQ then CAP would along the lines of Solider Qualification plus. If you are NOT thinking about remaining in the Army  then CAP is kinda useless for you. Why learn to camp when you will be aboard ship or in hotels? If you are looking at an Army NCM trade then  it might be useful.  Try to get into the BPSO to discuss than they may have better info for you. PM if you need some research done.

CFR FCS


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (9 Jan 2009)

JLC/JNCO (PLQ now I guess), deployment experience and a nicely crafted memo allowed me to skip CAP, if this helps at all for what worked. BOTC/BOTP was in my experience equivalent to the JLC portion of the JLC/JNCO course - finishing with Small Part Taskings, whereas the JNCO portion took it up a notch with section attacks, recce planning/orders/patrols, defensive and withdrawal ops. CAP from what I have read and heard from peers who did the course is equivalent in content to the JNCO portion. Now, will BOTP (being JLC equivalent) be enough to be exempt PLQ, I don't know for certain (given that PLQ Mod 6 deals with section-level offensive/defensive tactics), but with CAP, you should be more than qualified to skip having to do PLQ.

Long story short, it's worth investigating, but in my opinion BOTP may not be enough to cover PLQ complete (being a modular course). You may be able to skip portions, much like CLS' plan to allow combat-experienced Ptes and Cpls to skip most of PLQ (only admin bits) to get their masterjacks.


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## Goose (9 Jan 2009)

thanks. it sounds like it might be in my best interest, but I was just reading a thread about how medics don't have to do SQ anyways... but it was from 2005.... can anyone put a more recent spin on that one?


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## Brasidas (10 Jan 2009)

Jane~Doe said:
			
		

> thanks. it sounds like it might be in my best interest, but I was just reading a thread about how medics don't have to do SQ anyways... but it was from 2005.... can anyone put a more recent spin on that one?



Knew a reservist doing BMQ summer 2007.  While the remainder of his course continued to SQ the following month, he went home as his trade didn't require it.  Don't know about reg force.


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (10 Jan 2009)

OK - My take on this:

BMQ = QL2 (old title)
SQ = QL3 (old title)
Not sure about QL4 (MOC qual)

PLQ (Mods 1-5) = JLC (CLC) (old title)
PLQ (Mod 6) = JNCO (CLC) (old title)

BOTP = JLC (CLC)
CAP = JNCO (CLC)


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## Brasidas (10 Jan 2009)

QL3's trade-specific, SQ's not an equivalent.


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## Rowshambow (10 Jan 2009)

What trade are you thinking of going, this could also help your decision, and if I may ask, why do you want to transfer?


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## Soldier1stTradesman2nd (10 Jan 2009)

Ack. Been too far removed from the recruiting process to have the latest skinny on what each qual entails. Did some searching and got the listing of the new quals.
Back to the topic at hand.


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## ltmaverick25 (11 Jan 2009)

There was a guy in my old unit that initially started off as an officer.  He completed the IAP and BOTP, then he chose to transfer to Int.  He was forced to go Int NCM first (long story, and rediculous IMO).  He requested to have the PLQ equivalency granted based on his completion of the IAP/BOTP and it was granted.  A few years later he became a MCpl.  If you take it upon  yourself to complete the CAP then I would say you are guarenteed to have it written off.

On another topic, just out of curiosity, what trade are you, and what inspires you to switch from officer to NCM?  Im not saying its a terrible idea, but am curious as to why.


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## Pea (11 Jan 2009)

Jane~Doe said:
			
		

> thanks. it sounds like it might be in my best interest, but I was just reading a thread about how medics don't have to do SQ anyways... but it was from 2005.... can anyone put a more recent spin on that one?



Medics are definitely doing SQ, as we are a "purple trade" and can be posted to any environment. (it is just not a requirement to be QL3 qualified is all. But it is something we do afterwards if we haven't done it before)


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## Griffon (20 Jan 2009)

Jane,

I just finished my PLQ before Christmas, and on my course was a Cpl who transfered back to NCM from the UTPNCM program.  He completed his IAP/BOTC in the summer of '07, however due to the new PLQ course material he no longer had equivalency and therefore had to take the new PLQ course.  With that being said, I cannot say for certain whether CAP will give you the PLQ equivalency or not, contact CDA and they will be able to answer that for you.


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## TCM621 (10 Dec 2012)

Does anyone have any new info of this? I am in a similar boat, as I have recently come back to the NCM ranks after completing CAP/BMOQ(L). I am pretty sure PLQ is a write off but I am curious to see what else. With the old system of JLC/JNCO(ISCC) that I remember, it would have been a MCpls course. As it stands BMOQ(L) is a section commander's course aka a sergeant's course. Before anyone says anything, I am not equating a BMOQ(L) graduate to an experienced Sergeant, I am just saying the skills taught are sergeant level skills. Wouldn't that give you some credit to ILQ?

If I look at the infantry officer track which is what the army bases everything off of. BMOQ is PLQ, BMOQ(L) is your 6A and phase 3 is your Warrants course. In terms of skills anyway. Following that logic, a CAP/BMOQ(L) graduate would be "qualified" as a infantry section commander or SGT. 

Anyway, just curious as I want to provide the right info to my CoC when I write my PLAR memo.


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## DAA (10 Dec 2012)

BMOQ or BOTC completion automatically grants the PLQ on reversion to NCM as part of the PLAR process.  For ILP/ILQ qual you need to have been a commissioned officer fully ODP 2 qualified including the OPME program (6 OPME Credits).


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## Shamrock (10 Dec 2012)

It is not an automatic.

Source: http://cda-acd.mil.ca/j3ops/milequiv/plq-eng.asp



> CDA has the authority to grant equivalency to the Primary Leadership Qualification (CF PLQ), code AINR, to members who initially took leadership training with the Regular Force and/or the Primary Reserve Force. For example, it is also possible for NCMs to be granted CF PLQ equivalency after having successfully completed BMOQ.(AIPB)
> 
> The following documents are required to submit a request for CF PLQ Equivalency:
> 
> ...


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## DAA (10 Dec 2012)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> It is not an automatic.
> 
> Source: http://cda-acd.mil.ca/j3ops/milequiv/plq-eng.asp



References shown at the bottom of that Website are out of date!  Refer to CDA Directive 01/12 which provides more current info (ie; Equivalency Validation Matrix) with regards to "common" NCM PD equivalencies.


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## Brasidas (10 Dec 2012)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Does anyone have any new info of this? I am in a similar boat, as I have recently come back to the NCM ranks after completing CAP/BMOQ(L). I am pretty sure PLQ is a write off but I am curious to see what else. With the old system of JLC/JNCO(ISCC) that I remember, it would have been a MCpls course. As it stands BMOQ(L) is a section commander's course aka a sergeant's course. Before anyone says anything, I am not equating a BMOQ(L) graduate to an experienced Sergeant, I am just saying the skills taught are sergeant level skills. Wouldn't that give you some credit to ILQ?
> 
> If I look at the infantry officer track which is what the army bases everything off of. BMOQ is PLQ, BMOQ(L) is your 6A and phase 3 is your Warrants course. In terms of skills anyway. Following that logic, a CAP/BMOQ(L) graduate would be "qualified" as a infantry section commander or SGT.
> 
> Anyway, just curious as I want to provide the right info to my CoC when I write my PLAR memo.



From what I've read of the TP, CAP/BMOQ(L) sounds an aweful lot like PLQ mod 6. Section attacks, defensives, and patrols. What do you see on there that are "sergeant level skills" that aren't covered in PLQ?


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## DAA (10 Dec 2012)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> From what I've read of the TP, CAP/BMOQ(L) sounds an aweful lot like PLQ mod 6. Section attacks, defensives, and patrols. What do you see on there that are "sergeant level skills" that aren't covered in PLQ?



Nothing.  The table makes reference to PLQ, PLQ-L, JLC, CLC, BOTC and BMOQ.  There are no credits listed for any type of occupational training.  In the case of prior BOTC or BMOQ, you must first complete your NCM QL3 training (OFP).  Once qualified in the new occupation, then and only then are you to submit a PLAR for the PLQ qual...I don't believe it can be granted in advance of the OFP.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Dec 2012)

Hmm, maybe it is different for Officer -> NCM stuff, however on the NCM side, I know a mbr who CTd/OTd and the PLAR granted him his PLQ, and he was QL0 in his new MOC.  

Could be apples and oranges though.


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## PuckChaser (10 Dec 2012)

Part of the CT process is a PLAR conducted by CDA to determine which reserve courses carry into the RegF. That would explain why it was done in advance of DP1 training in the new MOC. I don't think a PLAR is automatically done with just an OT.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Dec 2012)

Yes, but I was more leaning toward the "PLQ cannot be granted before being QL3 quald or at OFP [not all MOCs have their OFP at QL3].


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## DAA (10 Dec 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Yes, but I was more leaning toward the "PLQ cannot be granted before being QL3 quald or at OFP [not all MOCs have their OFP at QL3].



That's exactly what the PD Validation Matrix states "PLAR for PLQ to be submitted after reaching the OFP".


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## brihard (10 Dec 2012)

With BMOQ(L) done you should be credited BMQ(L), and once you hit OFP you should be able to have the entirety of the new Army-PLQ written off; the new system being comprised of Mods 1-4.

What MOS are you transferring from/to?


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## Shamrock (10 Dec 2012)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> From what I've read of the TP, CAP/BMOQ(L) sounds an aweful lot like PLQ mod 6. Section attacks, defensives, and patrols. What do you see on there that are "sergeant level skills" that aren't covered in PLQ?



For a good comparison, read the QS for BMOQ-L, BMOQ, and PLQ.  You'll notice, mostly, they overlap but there are some areas where one course lacks elements of the other.  For example, instructional techniques isn't really present during BMOQ-L, nor do officers learn how to give a drill class.  On the other hand, PLQ only teaches up to function as an ARSO whereas BMOQ-L requires students to conduct a range.

It's the alignment of POs that permit easy PLARs.


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## TCM621 (10 Dec 2012)

Brasidas said:
			
		

> From what I've read of the TP, CAP/BMOQ(L) sounds an aweful lot like PLQ mod 6. Section attacks, defensives, and patrols. What do you see on there that are "sergeant level skills" that aren't covered in PLQ?



To be honest, I am not sure how it stacks up. I am referencing the old JLC/ISCC model, so I know it is out of date. My thought process is that it is a section commander's course and section commander are sgts. You also qualify as an RSO and have to do range orders and the like. Like I said, I am curious because I am having a hard time finding references. I will look at the CDA directive mentioned.


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## goodreed (11 Dec 2012)

Not to derail, but I am currently trying to decide between pursuing the DEO or NCM route for infantry.  I was wondering what the OP (and others) reasons are for switching to NCM after attaining your commission?


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## SentryMAn (11 Dec 2012)

Less thinking, more doing.


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## brihard (11 Dec 2012)

goodreed said:
			
		

> I was wondering what the OP (and others) reasons are for switching to NCM after attaining your commission?



Usually they have failed in training and have been told that if they wish to continue their service it will not be as an officer. It happens that some officers voluntarily relinquish commission, but it's rare, and normally they're moving into something quite specialized it they do.


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