# My situation (RMC)



## Yasha (31 Mar 2008)

I am in my second year at a civi- university.My grades in highschool were incredible. However first uni school year I did very poorly, and this year I did quite poorly. I became very tired of this school as I was doing something that I did not enjoy. 

I joined the reserves awhile back and right away instantly I wanted to do this for the rest of my life. Therefore I applied for RMC B.A. Military and strategic studies. I completed the application and revealed my dedication and will on it. Believe me I did. I got a call from the recruiting centre today for RMC offering me a 13 year contract for army. 
I am confused about two things. Why 13 year contract? Not that I care, but 13 year kind of tripped me out. I am happy however.

As well, with my poor university grades I was surprised I got an offer. Why?

From what I understand if I accept the offer, I must start my uni career over again, is this correct?

thanks for the info and advice.


----------



## SMP (31 Mar 2008)

First of all, congratulations on getting an offer!

I believe (and will be corrected if I am wrong) that initial contracts are 13 years, but your obligatory service depends on how many years of your education is subsidized. So if you have a four year program, you must stay in the CF for an additional four years (I think it is 2 months service for every month of school subsidized). You may sign up for the 13 years, but be eligible for release after completing your period of obligatory service. 

I would call or visit your CFRC tomorrow and get things straightened out, they are the best people to talk to.


----------



## Yasha (31 Mar 2008)

If this is correct, I understand. I am happy with that.
However with regards to my grades in university(?) any comments

I am very thankful as I view this as a chance to start again. A clean slate.


----------



## GGHG_Cadet (31 Mar 2008)

The 13 year contract is your obligatory service that you owe the CF for them paying for your education. That includes the 4 years you are at school, so that 13 years is 4 years at school, and 9 serving. 

The length of your contract depends on your trade. For example, I've been accepted as a land operations officer and my contract is 9 years- 4 years at school and 5 serving, where as people selected as pilots sign for 13 years, 4 years schooling and 9 serving.


----------



## DVessey (31 Mar 2008)

if you're going into RMC through ROTP, you're contract should only be 9 years (unless you're a pilot or nav). As someone else already stated, the recruiting center should be able to clear this up for you.


----------



## Lumber (1 Apr 2008)

GGHG_Cadet said:
			
		

> The 13 year contract is your obligatory service that you owe the CF for them paying for your education. That includes the 4 years you are at school, so that 13 years is 4 years at school, and 9 serving.
> 
> The length of your contract depends on your trade. For example, I've been accepted as a land operations officer and my contract is 9 years- 4 years at school and 5 serving, where as people selected as pilots sign for 13 years, 4 years schooling and 9 serving.



Wrong.

Your contract is for 13 years. During that 13 years, it takes 9 years (4 at RMC or Civi-U and 5 in unit) to "work-off" your free education. You can VR (voluntary release) from the forces at anytime. If you VR before 9 years is up, then you owe the Canadian Forces for the money they spent educating you. So, foo example, if I was to quite now, I would have to pay the government the full price of 2 years of education. If I quit in year 6, I would owe them all that less what I had worked off in my two years post-grad. If I decide I want to leave after the 9 years, then it's just paperwork, no owing the gov. any money. 



			
				DVessey said:
			
		

> if you're going into RMC through ROTP, you're contract should only be 9 years (unless you're a pilot or nav). As someone else already stated, the recruiting center should be able to clear this up for you.



Again, as I said, your contract IS 13 years (12 for some), and slightly longer for pilots (and airnavs I think)


			
				Yasha said:
			
		

> As well, with my poor university grades I was surprised I got an offer. Why?
> 
> From what I understand if I accept the offer, I must start my uni career over again, is this correct?



1. People are accepted at RMC who have highschool grades in the 60s and 70s. They look at multiple factors when deciding who to accept. Besides, they have quotas to fill. If they need 5 people from Saskatchewan but their grades are just barely passable, well congrats you're in. Obviously, there is still a minimum, but apparently that minimum can be surprisingly low.

2.Yes, and because we have a very comprehensive curriculum, a lot of your credits won't count towards your degree here. If you're Arts though don't fret, you'll have PLENTY of free time.


----------



## Yasha (1 Apr 2008)

Thanks very much Lumber. That cleared up a lot for me! I have accepted the offer and am very excited for a fresh start at RMC.


----------



## GGHG_Cadet (1 Apr 2008)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Wrong.
> 
> Your contract is for 13 years. During that 13 years, it takes 9 years (4 at RMC or Civi-U and 5 in unit) to "work-off" your free education. You can VR (voluntary release) from the forces at anytime. If you VR before 9 years is up, then you owe the Canadian Forces for the money they spent educating you. So, foo example, if I was to quite now, I would have to pay the government the full price of 2 years of education. If I quit in year 6, I would owe them all that less what I had worked off in my two years post-grad. If I decide I want to leave after the 9 years, then it's just paperwork, no owing the gov. any money.



Seen. Thank you for the correction.


----------



## Kruggle (1 Apr 2008)

Hi there,

I am just curious as to how poor your grades at University are? I had an 85-90% average in grade 12, but my grades in University are really bad. My average is probably around B- and I am in my last year. I would love to start out fresh as well, but I guess I have too many credits already. If I knew I had the option to go for RMC, I really would have done so no matter how far into the program I was. I think the requirement for graduation is 120 credits and I might be less than 30 credits short if I fail everything this semester. Congrats on starting out fresh.


----------



## brian_k (4 Apr 2008)

Kruggle said:
			
		

> ... but my grades in University are really bad. My average is probably around B- and I am in my last year. I would love to start out fresh as well, but I guess I have too many credits already.



You say your grades are really bad and you have a B-? I think you are being a touch hard on yourself. Also why would you want to start all over, you have worked to get to your final year, it seems like it would be a waste to start a new degree without finish your current one. Even if you did another degree later on at least there would be something to show for the time already spent at the university.


----------



## dwalter (4 Apr 2008)

OK everyone, there is still a common misconception going around that you would be able to alleviate if you did a search and read any of the RMC topics about applications, or a bunch of the personal stories. Grades do not count for everything. Your grades only count for a portion of the application process. Other parts includes your extra curricular activities and current leadership experience. 

As for university grades, a B- average is not a bad average. A is not even an average listed on the application form, it is just B+ or above. Basically if you have any kind of B, you are just dandy. In university you should not be expecting to get the same grades as in high school. Usually people figure that out in first year...


----------



## ChaosTheory (4 Apr 2008)

I find, at least in my university (Simon Fraser), that the average grade is a C, if you get average you get a C, if you do better you get a higher grade, if you do worse you get a worse grade.  So definitely, if you are in the B range you are doing good and should not worry and if you are getting an A average all I have to say to that is wow.


----------



## dwalter (5 Apr 2008)

SFU's average is a C? That's not very high. The averages at UBC are usually B-, at least in arts.  Sciences seem to have lower averages.


----------



## ChaosTheory (5 Apr 2008)

I mean they make the average a C.

Arts is easy anyways hence why the higher grades there.


----------



## Lumber (5 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Wrong.
> 
> Contracts vary. It depends on the offer you received. Mine is for 10 years (4 at school, 6 after). I know people with 9 year contracts, 13 year contracts and everything in between, both at RMC and Real-U. This '9 year' theory you have re: working off your education is just plain wrong. If you have a 13 year contract and you try to leave in year 12, you're owing the government money.
> 
> I had to address this before anyone else got the wrong idea. If you have a 13 year contract and leave before year 13, you owe money. You can't have a 13 year contract, serve for 9 to 'work it off' then VR. Whoever told you this is WRONG and should be corrected immediatly to prevent admin problems down the road for whomever believed him/her.



Sorry Piper, but you should have done some research,

While contracts do vary, the typical contract is 12-13 years? How do I know that? Because I go to school with 1000 O/NCdts whose contracts are all 12-13 years, with the exception of Pilots and AirNavs whose contracts are slightly longer.

MY 9 years to "work off your education" is not a theory, it's fact. For every month of subsidized education, you are required to serve two month post-gradutation up to a maximum of 5 years. 8 Month of school a year means 64 months of required service which is slightly more than 5 years, so they cap it at 5 years. If you were enrolled into ROTP while in first year at Civi-U and only needed to complete three more years to get your degree, then you would have to serve 4 years after to "work off" your education. 

As I said, this isn't a theory, it's right in the paperwork you filled out to get accepted. It's in the *DAOD*s. The staff at the CFRC had all 9 of us do the math ourselves just so we understood fully how the system works. If you get out after this period, but before your contract is up, you owe nothing.

Still don't believe me?

*Obligatory Service*

*Subsidized Education or Training*

*Calculation of Obligatory Service*

The duration of a course of study is counted in calendar months to the nearest half-month. Obligatory service will normally be incurred when a course of study is six months or longer, *and will be calculated on the basis of two months’ service for each month of education or training, *using the start and end dates of the course of study.

Example:

Course of study starts 6 Sep 1998 and ends 21 Apr 2000

Obligatory service will be calculated from 1 Sep 1998 to 15 Apr 2000 (rounded to the nearest half-months) = 19.5 months

Total period of obligatory service = 39 months (19.5 x 2) starting 22 Apr 2000

*The maximum period of obligatory service that can be incurred for a course of study leading to a specific qualification is 60 months.* Where further education or training is required to attain an additional specific qualification, that education or training incurs obligatory service. The total period of obligatory service may, therefore, exceed 60 months. (See the heading entitled Simultaneous Periods of Obligatory Service). <---IE PILOTS

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/DAOD/5049/1_e.asp

TDV

Cheers


----------



## ChaosTheory (5 Apr 2008)

Lumber said:
			
		

> ... the typical contract is 12-13 years...



As a CELE officer, when I enrolled back in '06, my contract only goes till 16 July 2015.  That is nine years, not twelve and I am doing full four years at Real-U.


----------



## Lumber (5 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Finally, I challenge you to release before the end of your contract without incurring a penalty, even if you've served for your very prescious 9 years and think you're good to go to release without penalty.



I never mentioned a penalty or lack thereof, I said you wouldn't owe the government for your education, and I stand by that.


----------



## Lumber (5 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> *The total period of obligatory service may, therefore, exceed 60 months.*
> 
> Also;
> 
> *For example, postgraduate training and the Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP) are programs that each incur obligatory service. In cases where postgraduate training immediately follows training completed under the ROTP, the periods of obligatory service will be cumulative and the total period will exceed 60 months.*



See table at the bottom of the aforementioned DAOD. The period of obligatory service for ROTP will not exceed 60 months, or 5 years. If you undergo further training following ROTP then you incur more obligatory training. Pilots are an example of this. The rest of us, Infantry, MARS etc., don't, so we only accumulate 60 months of obligatory service. 



			
				Piper said:
			
		

> So, like I said, unlike your claim that after 9 years you are free to release without financial commitment with no exceptions, you can in fact be obliged to serve longer then 9 years. Contract lengths also very, as has been said before to you here, just because you see something at RMC does not mean it applies to everyone else.



I never said contracts don't vary in length, I said the typical contract is 12-13 years. After 9 years, if your contract isn't finished, then of course you are "obliged" to finish it unless there are extenuating circumstances:



> *Special and unforeseen circumstances are circumstances that are:
> 
> * compelling in nature; and
> 
> * unique or extraordinary to the member.*



But will you have to pay the government back for your subsidized education? No.

And stop calling it "my special 9 years" or whatever. First of all it's condescending and you should be mature and not make this personal. Second, as I have already stated, the 9 years is for a typical RMC cadet who is subsidized for 4 years of education. Those who don't have to complete 4 years will have a shorter period of obligatory service, a "special 8 years" or 7 or whatever it works out to.

And the QR&Os you provided don't further your argument whatsoever.

In a nutshell, all that it says is that if your are less then 12 months into your obligatory service, you will have to pay the crown back for all of your education, but if you are more than 12 months into your obligatory service, then they will take into account how much you have "worked off" and you will pay the difference.

I'm not sure we're even arguing the same thing anymore Piper. I'm saying that your subsidized education is paid for (typically) after 5 years of service, as well that the typical contract is 12-13 years. You seem to be arguing that if one tried to release after their period of obligatory service it would not be very easy, but I never said it was?


----------



## Lumber (14 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Lumber, your "13 years" comment is now 'officially' wrong.



Seriously, do you have some personal vendetta against me or something?

That list provides 35 different MOCs and their typical VIEs for ROTP. What it does not provide is the actual number of cadets in each MOC. If only one MOC with a VIE of 13 years had 1000 cadets and all the other 34 MOCs had only 300 combined, then the typical '13' years would be correct. 

However, since it does not provide these number this does not prove me right, but it does not prove me _wrong_ either. 

Nonetheless, the trades with 12-13 year contracts (remember you made up the term 'special 13' or whatnot, I always said 12-13) include ARMD, INF, ARTY, ENGR, PLT, MARS, SIGS, among others. 

Are not these the trades with some of the highest number of personnel? Maybe your post does prove me right...


----------



## NCS_Eng (14 Apr 2008)

Not that I don't enjoy a good Ocdr/Ncdt slap fight...

The "thirteen year" comment comes from the old SE/SSE (Short Engagement / Short Service Engagement) that we officers signed on under back before the Variable Initial Engagement (VIE) which was, unsurprisingly, 13 years (for the most part, there were exceptions, as have been pointed out). Actually to be more specific it was 9 years + subsidized school years, which for most 4-year ROTP types was 13 years.

So, you've got 4 years of school (RMC or Civy U) + 5 years of "obligatory" service (again, this can go down if you've spend less than four years at school or go up if you do a Masters degree right after, but 5 years is the overwhelming average) and then another 4 years to round out the contract. If you left at the end of your contract you would get a firm handshake, a pile of cash in the form of return of contributions from your RRP + officer gratuities ( no longer offered) and a job well done. If you left *AFTER* your obligatory service but *BEFORE* your contract ended, you got nothing but your life back and a sensation of vertigo.

If you left during your obligatory service, or during your 2nd-4th years of school, you'd end up having to repay the government a prorated amount based on months of education - months served post graduation.

My understanding is that under the VIE this is still very much the case, only the engagement (contract) period varies from person to person and from trade to trade. In any case when dealing with subsidized education the VIE cannot be shorter than the obligatory service period. 'Course I'm no admin type so maybe there have been a few more changes with which I'm not familiar.

In any case, I hope this stops further pointless arguing, as both of you should be into exam period by now and have more important things to occupy your time.


----------



## Lumber (14 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Surely you jest (I'm a BA student).



Ditto.


----------



## benny88 (14 Apr 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Surely you jest (I'm a BA student).



  I, as well. I guess that explains why I've been following these shenanigans  : Good luck with exams guys.


----------

