# Do you ever get treated like a human?



## Moosy (24 Jul 2008)

I have been in training almost 2 years now. And I'm curious of some experienced members of the CF could tell me when I can expect to be treated like a human. It seems as though no matter how hard you try and good you do you still get in trouble, while the real trouble makers weasle their way out of things. 

I never expected training to take this long but that is another story I just want to stop getting screwed around, do my job, train and go over seas.


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## dangerboy (24 Jul 2008)

Not knowing your trade or specifics I can only generalize; but once you finish all your training and report to your unit you will find it to be different.  Unfortunately there will always be scammers   but they eventuality get caught.  the only thing you can do is continue to do your best and think of your goal to be a qualified soldier (or sailor or airman).


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Jul 2008)

Moosy.

PM inbound.


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## Moosy (24 Jul 2008)

Thank you, I'm a vehicle tech by the way. 

I keeping hoping that posted life will be different, it is a long way a way (hopefully December)

It is just times like right now that it can be hard to stay motivated, just when i am doing all my best (great PT scores, college honour roll, 3.96gpa, and great inspections) that things seem to go wrong. Oh and it's always the weekends I want to go home.

But thank you for lifting my spirits a little.


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## Run away gun (24 Jul 2008)

Yes posted life is alot different than any school. And your peers who are screwing around at the school will be sorted out sooner or later. 

Trouble making might be tolerated at the school you are at now, but I know a few veh techs and have worked with a few as well, and they expect you to be checked out from day one. 

Don't worry, once you get to your posting and show you are checked out alot more opportunities will open for you than those who just show up.


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## Greymatters (25 Jul 2008)

In a lot of ways, basic is like an extension of high school, or at least quite a few candidates act like they are still in high school.  Like previously posted, they get sorted out quickly when the BGDT ('big man during training') gets to the unit and finds out he will get his ass handed to him by older more experienced members who wont put up with their BS....


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## Eye In The Sky (25 Jul 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> In a lot of ways, basic is like an extension of high school, or at least quite a few candidates act like they are still in high school.  Like previously posted, they get sorted out quickly when the BGDT ('big man during training') gets to the unit and finds out he will get his *** handed to him by older more experienced members who wont put up with their BS....



From the PM I have received from the OP, this is not the case.  But yes it is the case sometimes.

This is not one of them though.   8)


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## Moosy (25 Jul 2008)

Run away gun said:
			
		

> Yes posted life is alot different than any school. And your peers who are screwing around at the school will be sorted out sooner or later.
> 
> Trouble making might be tolerated at the school you are at now, but I know a few veh techs and have worked with a few as well, and they expect you to be checked out from day one.
> 
> Don't worry, once you get to your posting and show you are checked out alot more opportunities will open for you than those who just show up.



Thank you, I think this is what I needed to hear, I'm sure everyone has had the feelings I am having and wonder what they are doing here.

I really love the army, so I hate feeling negativity towards it, I'm glad I found a place to talk to people that will treat me like a human.


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## RCDtpr (25 Jul 2008)

Training sucks, simple as that.  Don't know how your course is, but when I was in armoured school, I was the scum underneath the boots of any qualified person in the CF.  We got c.o.c.k.e.d HARD on that course by brutal brutal instructors.  But I think grad day summed up what it's like when you finish.  One of the Mcpls came upto me and said congratulations on passing your course.  I said thank you Mcpl and he repsonded that I have a springbok on my head now, and therefore I was to call him Chris.  I'll never forget that.

So to sum it up, life gets much better when you're done you're course.  The mechs in our bays all joke around with each other, call each other by first names, and all seem to get along..........be it a no hook or a Warrant.  So keep your head up and stay positive.  In the long run you'll look back and think it wasn't THAT bad and was all worth it.


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## Delta (31 Aug 2008)

Moosy said:
			
		

> It seems as though no matter how hard you try and good you do you still get in trouble, while the real trouble makers weasle their way out of things.


Personally speaking, it gets frustrating after a while when the entire course is punished because one or two individuals refused to put out. I know that comradeship is important, but while bother bonding the screw-ups to those who try their best? The argument might be that hopefully the screw-ups will raise to the top.


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## Franko (31 Aug 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> Personally speaking, it gets frustrating after a while when the entire course is punished because one or two individuals refused to put out. I know that comradeship is important, but while bother bonding the screw-ups to those who try their best? The argument might be that hopefully the screw-ups will raise to the top.



They usually get the boot if they don't smarten up. We had a few in the same boat on an SQ course I taught on in the summer of 06 and we failed one.

Mind you it took an act of Jeebus to do it.

Regards


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## armyvern (31 Aug 2008)

Moosy said:
			
		

> I have been in training almost 2 years now. And I'm curious of some experienced members of the CF could tell me when I can expect to be treated like a human. It seems as though no matter how hard you try and good you do you still get in trouble, while the real trouble makers weasle their way out of things.
> 
> I never expected training to take this long but that is another story I just want to stop getting screwed around, do my job, train and go over seas.



Oh boy.

I don't know how to explain it. "Look after your buddies - your buddies look after you?" The CF needs you to learn to work like a team, because our success overseas and on missions depends upon that teamwork being second nature. It's quite frustrating while in the training system I know.

Really, are the "real" trouble makers really weaseling out of anything, or is it that you are all getting in trouble for their screw ups?

I know when I went through -- one of the guys in my section got shit on royally for having crappy boots. Three mornings in a row with zero improvement to them. On day three --- the instructor took a glance at his boots again then walked over to my bedspace and tore a strip off me. "You &%$#@# idiot!! You have the best *((^%*) boots in this **^^$P) section -- yet his STILL suck. When the ()*(&^$%# are you going to learn some teamwork and get them ^**$$ done!!??" With that, the instructor walked out with nary a word to the boot's owner.

That night ... guess who was doing the boots? I was. Guess what he was doing? Ironing my damn uniform.

Find something that your "trouble-makers" are good at. Make them do that. Your instructors aren't about to make them do it. They are trying to instill leadership and discipline into you and your fellow trainees. You guys find something that they're good at, and while they do that --- you do the stuff you are good at. At the end of the day, everything is done ... and done well. All because you acted like a team. When you start doing that, and it has become habit --- you'll find that your instructors will begin treating you more like the adults and team that you've become. 

If buddy still doesn't want to play the game despite your best attempts at "teamwork" ... _then_ the instructors will kick his ass into gear -- or he'll be gone. They DO notice these things ... it's part of their job.


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## brihard (31 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> They usually get the boot if they don't smarten up. We had a few in the same boat on an SQ course I taught on in the summer of 06 and we failed one.
> 
> Mind you it took an act of Jeebus to do it.
> 
> Regards



There's half the problem right there... It's getting bloody hard to fail candidates. I've only taught on one course (reserve BMQ), but most of those I worked with echoed my belief that you had to go through far too many hoops to get someone off course who simply should not be there. I'm not talking dumb mistakes, but serious issues of performance and integrity. They need to ease up on the mechanisms to recourse candidates who just aren't there yet, and maybe need a swift kick as a reality check.


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## Kat Stevens (31 Aug 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> Personally speaking, it gets frustrating after a while when the entire course is punished because one or two individuals refused to put out. I know that comradeship is important, but while bother bonding the screw-ups to those who try their best? The argument might be that hopefully the screw-ups will raise to the top.



The theory behind this is rock solid, if a little antiquated.  If the rest of the course gets tired of paying for the few screwups, they'll take matters into their own hands and sort out the offenders.  As far as I know, collective punishment was done away with years ago.


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## blacktriangle (31 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> They usually get the boot if they don't smarten up. We had a few in the same boat on an SQ course I taught on in the summer of 06 and we failed one.
> 
> Mind you it took an act of Jeebus to do it.
> 
> Regards



Having helped out a few BMQ/SQ courses (though not in an official instructor position) I know exactly what you mean, it is extremely hard to fail a candidate at the BMQ/SQ level. I think that should be where the decision is made, do we keep this pers and they smarten up, or do we give them the punt. 

On my SQ course two years ago we started with 43 and graduated about 27, most that left VRed or were injured, and only one was actually failed. The number should of been higher as several people slipped through the cracks to go on to such glorius feets as falling asleep at the wheel of a vehicle (yes the co-driver too, from the same course) and having mental breakdowns on a 2 day field ex. To make things even better I was told they COULDN'T fail anyone on the BMQ/SQ this year, and apparently the whole course including several shitpumps passed with like 5 chances at passing a wep handling test etc... and to top it all off some of these individuals think they are going to go overseas and drive a tank with the RCD. Have fun.  :


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## Franko (31 Aug 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> ... and to top it all off some of these individuals think they are going to go overseas and drive a tank with the RCD. Have fun.  :



They won't....there are checks and balances in place to stop and get rid of them.

We're rather picky as to who we let crew a 70 ton killing machine.

Regards


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## aesop081 (31 Aug 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> There's half the problem right there... It's getting bloody hard to fail candidates.



Sounds like a problem specific to certain training establishments only. CFANS doesnt seem to have that problem. My trade only gradutes 50% of those who arrive for course. Process is simple. You fail a PC, you get a retest. Fail another one and you get to chat with the staff. If you are deemed worthy you get to do a retest. fail one more and you are gone. Thats it. Fail the same sim session twice = gone, fail the same flight twice = gone


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## brihard (31 Aug 2008)

To be fair, that school is a very different context from a BMQ or an SQ.

Hell, even the leadership courses out of Pet this summer could not fail anyone off the mod 6. There were isntances of troops getting their fourth shot at a recce patrol- recce from the Warrior Support Center to the 1RCR lines. I wish I were making that up.

One or two may have failed the course, of the instructors, staff, and candidates at Leadership Coy this summer, all that I have spoken to have said the same. It is apparently the same on this summer's basic and trades courses. Granted, several of these are reserve courses. that may be part of the equation.


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## blacktriangle (31 Aug 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> They won't....there are checks and balances in place to stop and get rid of them.
> 
> We're rather picky as to who we let crew a 70 ton killing machine.
> 
> Regards



Good to hear. On the upside you guys got the best troop off our course last I heard, so stuff works out in the end. 

Good luck out there.


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## Franko (31 Aug 2008)

popnfresh said:
			
		

> On the upside you guys got the best troop off our course last I heard, so stuff works out in the end.



Time will tell. Some guys do well on courses and fall apart on tour or a long exercise.



> Good luck out there.



TANKS!


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## aesop081 (31 Aug 2008)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Hell, even the leadership courses out of Pet this summer could not fail anyone off the mod 6.



Sure they can. If there is no institutional will do do the work required to remove someone from course, thats another story. I know this from painful experience.


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Aug 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> Personally speaking, it gets frustrating after a while when the entire course is punished because one or two individuals refused to put out. I know that comradeship is important, but while bother bonding the screw-ups to those who try their best? The argument might be that hopefully the screw-ups will raise to the top.



Every BMQ and QL3 course I ever taught on ran into this.  I used to give the following speech to explain why we just don't kick out the weak links.  Maybe this will make some sense to you...

"Every course, every troop, or platoon, or Orderly Room, will have someone who is labled the weakest link, the slowest soldier.  And what does everyone want to do with that person?  Get rid of them, kick them out, something like that.  Ok, so we'll do that with this course.  We will get rid of the poorest performing recruit.  Now guess what happens?  That person is gone...in an hour, a day, a week...at SOME point in time...you dumb bastards will label someone else as the weakest troop.  So again, we'll do our job...we'll punt THAT soldier.  And then guess what?  Starting to see a pattern?  Now, lots of you are all for getting rid of people you see as weaker than you....and luckily for you...so am I.  I see all of YOU as weaker than me, and the entire staff...so we'll just get rid of the fuckin' lot of you.  Get the point yet?  If we constantly get rid of the 'weakest' person, pretty soon this course will be down to 2 recruits...one of which will of course be the strongest of the 2.  So if we follow your mentality, every course and unit would consist of one goddamn soldier.  But you' better stop and ask yourself, the whole self centered lot of ya...when it is gonna be YOUR turn to be labelled the weak one and get the boot?"

Maybe that makes sense...maybe you think its BS.  But the point still stands...where do we stop?  The people who CAN'T meet the standard are weeded out...and every unit has poor and strong performers...its always been that way...I suspect it always will be.  Even JTF2 has SOMEONE who is the slowest runner, the worst shot...there are some SAR Techs that are better than others...some Leo gnrs are better gnrs than others...some clerks know the pay system better than others.  We're human, after all.


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## Ex-Dragoon (31 Aug 2008)

> We're human, after all.



CDN Aviator isn't...the dude is a machine. The Aviatnor.  
Instead of "I'll be back"...is "I'll have another beer"


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Aug 2008)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> CDN Aviator isn't...the dude is a machine. The Aviatnor.
> Instead of "I'll be back"...is "I'll have another beer"



 :cheers:  I'll drink to that!!


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## Jorkapp (31 Aug 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Every BMQ and QL3 course I ever taught on ran into this.  I used to give the following speech to explain why we just don't kick out the weak links.  Maybe this will make some sense to you...
> 
> "Every course, every troop, or platoon, or Orderly Room, will have someone who is labled the weakest link, the slowest soldier.  And what does everyone want to do with that person?  Get rid of them, kick them out, something like that.  Ok, so we'll do that with this course.  We will get rid of the poorest performing recruit.  Now guess what happens?  That person is gone...in an hour, a day, a week...at SOME point in time...you dumb bastards will label someone else as the weakest troop.  So again, we'll do our job...we'll punt THAT soldier.  And then guess what?  Starting to see a pattern?  Now, lots of you are all for getting rid of people you see as weaker than you....and luckily for you...so am I.  I see all of YOU as weaker than me, and the entire staff...so we'll just get rid of the ******' lot of you.  Get the point yet?  If we constantly get rid of the 'weakest' person, pretty soon this course will be down to 2 recruits...one of which will of course be the strongest of the 2.  So if we follow your mentality, every course and unit would consist of one goddamn soldier.  But you' better stop and ask yourself, the whole self centered lot of ya...when it is gonna be YOUR turn to be labelled the weak one and get the boot?"



Well said. If standards were relative, this would be the case, and we would hardly have anyone graduate a course let alone be in the CF. Our objective standards have their place, and have thusfar given us an effective military. As a result, you'll find ****-pumps no matter where you go, be it civvy jobs, courses, or even on the road, yet they continue to hold their jobs, pass their courses, and be barely functional drivers. Just wait for SHTF, and natural selection will take it's course.


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## Delta (1 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> But the point still stands...where do we stop?  The people who CAN'T meet the standard are weeded out...and every unit has poor and strong performers...its always been that way...I suspect it always will be ... We're human, after all.


Two thoughts after reading your reply.
1. If someone puts out their best and it is still not good enough, I am willing to be punished along with that individual because I know he gave his efforts. What pissed me off is, actual event, the staff says that no inspection will be done tomorrow. Some individuals slack off and make a mess of their rooms (beds not made, dirty laundry everywhere ...). Duty Sgt comes by, WHAM, puts everyone into the 'inspection twice-a-day' drill. I don't know, should we have argued with the Duty Sgt, (being reservists) "But Sgt, (insert rank) (insert name) said there no inspection will be done, so what you saw shouldn't count." or "Sgt, go check out the reg force guys down the hall, their rooms are also sht, why ain't they getting jacked up then?" By the way, I made my bed on that morning by waking up earlier as usual.

2. Wasn't the US Navy SEALs known for their 75% failure rate? So looking down on people is not as bad as you think.


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## Kat Stevens (1 Sep 2008)

Even if you're told no inspection, ALWAYS be prepared for an inspection.


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## aesop081 (1 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> should we have argued with the Duty Sgt, (being reservists)



What does reservist have to do with anything ?



> "But Sgt, (insert rank) (insert name) said there no inspection will be done, so what you saw shouldn't count."



That the course staff does not require an inspection does not absolve you from obeying base standing orders, most of which require that quarters be maintained in an acceptable state at all times.



> or "Sgt, go check out the reg force guys down the hall, their rooms are also sht, why ain't they getting jacked up then?" By the way, I made my bed on that morning by waking up earlier as usual.



"but Sgt, the other course gets to do......." 

That come under the heading of whiney little b***h !


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## Michael OLeary (1 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> 2. Wasn't the US Navy SEALs known for their 75% failure rate? So looking down on people is not as bad as you think.



You're missing the point.

Each course has a standard, a "bar" that students are expected to achieve.  That bar is a set by the Course Training Plan, which was developed by experienced members of the trade who understood what was necessary to meet the expectations to perform at the training level required of a course graduate (and often assuming further development on the job for later career progression).  Where the system gets fucked up is when staff, or student cliques, decide that the bar is too low and arbitrarily raise it.  This changes the standard, and students can fail that otherwise would have passed and may well have developed into credible and worthy soldiers.  Changing the standard, whether by staff or fellow students' expectations cheats the victims of that approach of their own potential career achievements, and cheats the system that chose eligible trainees - it's one reason that in some areas we may be losing training capacity with higher than necessary failure rates.  If someone honestly doesn't meet the official standard, then by all means they should fail, but when training and test standards are fucked with and students fail, its a failure of integrity in a serous way that cheats all of us.  There will always be "marginal" candidates, no matter what standard is set, but every new recruit is only enlisted for a basic engagement, with no promise of further advancement, that advancement comes with demonstrated competence and potential.

(And as for your example (assuming the statistic is correct), that is a function of where the SEALS have set their "bar", and they then accept that 75% of applicants don't make the grade.  It's not supportive of the premise that it's the "OK" to look down on people.)


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## Franko (1 Sep 2008)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Even if you're told no inspection, ALWAYS be prepared for an inspection.



That's the best advice I've seen in a while.       

Regards


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## armyvern (1 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> Two thoughts after reading your reply.
> 1. If someone puts out their best and it is still not good enough, I am willing to be punished along with that individual because I know he gave his efforts. What pissed me off is, actual event, the staff says that no inspection will be done tomorrow. Some individuals slack off and make a mess of their rooms (beds not made, dirty laundry everywhere ...). Duty Sgt comes by, WHAM, puts everyone into the 'inspection twice-a-day' drill. I don't know, should we have argued with the Duty Sgt, (being reservists) "But Sgt, (insert rank) (insert name) said there no inspection will be done, so what you saw shouldn't count." or "Sgt, go check out the reg force guys down the hall, their rooms are also sht, why ain't they getting jacked up then?" By the way, I made my bed on that morning by waking up earlier as usual.
> 
> 2. Wasn't the US Navy SEALs known for their 75% failure rate? So looking down on people is not as bad as you think.



RULE #1 in the field, on ops, in garrison:

PERSONAL HYGIENE.

We stress that for a reason. Even if there's "no inspection" coming ... you need to keep your shit clean. Ever heard of "shack hack"? Or any other myriad of medical issues? We live, work, fight, and sometimes die ... in close quarters. A soldier NEEDS to ensure that he looks after his personal hygiene because he can take an army down with him and his illness when he doesn't. Fit to fight. That doesn't refer to just physical fitness.

Have you guys had ANY PMed briefings as part of your training yet? This was a point made abundantly clear to us during my training years. It's an important lesson. A priority lesson. And, judging by your post -- it's a lesson that you and your buddies haven't quite grasped yet. I'm sure, that after the actions of your instructional staff to correct your "not getting it" --- that you probably do now and that it won't happen again. Your staff was correct in the actions they took. Lessons learned. And, BTW, it's not a lesson that should be forgotten after your training is done. Just ask the guys who live in the shacks here what happens to them if the RSM should find their singles quarters room to be a mess during one of his routine, but random, inspections of the singles quarters on base. <--- and those guys aren't in training any more. It's not pretty, nor should it be.

Apparently your course still has much to learn in the way of "look after your buddies - your buddy looks after you." When they don't clean up their shit - it's up to YOU guys to make sure they do, that's your jobs as team members. Not the instructors.


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## Jungle (1 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> Personally speaking, it gets frustrating after a while when the entire course is punished because one or two individuals refused to put out. I know that comradeship is important, but while bother bonding the screw-ups to those who try their best? The argument might be that hopefully the screw-ups will raise to the top.


Reminds me of an old saying:

"Mixing the good with the bad is like mixing crap with ice cream; it doesn't help crap any, but it sure screws your ice cream"


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## TN2IC (1 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> And, BTW, it's not a lesson that should be forgotten after your training is done. Just ask the guys who live in the shacks here what happens to them if the RSM should find their singles quarters room to be a mess during one of his routine, but random, inspections of the singles quarters on base. <--- and those guys aren't in training any more. It's not pretty, nor should it be.



It bought me 8 extras for having a pair of dirty socks on the floor. Of course, this was after I was told to keep my room clean the week before. Lesson learn. And the wife doesn't mind me cleaning now.  ;D


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## Shamrock (1 Sep 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> It bought me 8 extras for having a pair of dirty socks on the floor. Of course, this was after I was told to keep my room clean the week before. Lesson learn. And the wife doesn't mind me cleaning now.  ;D



Your wife gives you extras?


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## Strike (1 Sep 2008)

Sgt  Schultz said:
			
		

> And the wife doesn't mind me cleaning now.  ;D



I was about to lay in on you for that comment...but re-read it and saw "me" in it.  Amazing how the mind sees what it wants, huh?   ;D


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## Delta (1 Sep 2008)

Jungle said:
			
		

> Reminds me of an old saying:
> 
> "Mixing the good with the bad is like mixing crap with ice cream; it doesn't help crap any, but it sure screws your ice cream"


Here is what I am trying to relay. Some will not be able to handle the 'policy' any longer; sooner or later, some will give in, will it be the better ones or the bad ones.

If those who can't take the initiative to ensure their own responsibilities are done, how can you expect them to help out others?

I guess the two others and I should have stayed longer to ensure the last one made his bed. I guess it really is the course senior's problem when he has to go room-to-room to make sure everyone has left for breakfast (something never heard of in BMQ and SQ).


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## armyvern (1 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> I guess the two others and I should have stayed longer to ensure the last one made his bed. I guess it really is the course senior's problem when he has to go room-to-room to make sure everyone has left for breakfast (something never heard of in BMQ and SQ).



Yep. It is.

That's called Leadership and responsibility. It starts immediately upon your entering the CF ... not after your training is complete.

Get some. And when you have it --- you pass it on to others --- even if you have to fight long and hard to get it through their heads. That's what teamworkers do.


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## Armymedic (1 Sep 2008)

Here is the final answer to your original question:

You will be treated like a human, and then treated as an adult, once you prove that you deserve to be.

Until then, shut up and do what you are told.


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## Eye In The Sky (1 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> Here is what I am trying to relay. Some will not be able to handle the 'policy' any longer; sooner or later, some will give in, will it be the better ones or the bad ones.
> 
> If those who can't take the initiative to ensure their own responsibilities are done, how can you expect them to help out others?
> 
> I guess the two others and I should have stayed longer to ensure the last one made his bed. I guess it really is the course senior's problem when he has to go room-to-room to make sure everyone has left for breakfast (something never heard of in BMQ and SQ).



You know, supervising soldiers is something NCOs do every minute of every day.  Kit inspections, wpn inspections, etc etc etc.  It doesn't stop.  Get used to it.  If you are sick of covering other people's ass, I hope you realize your SUPPOSED to be doing that.


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## George Wallace (1 Sep 2008)

Prairie Dog said:
			
		

> Here is the final answer to your original question:
> 
> You will be treated like a human, and then treated as an adult, once you prove that you deserve to be.
> 
> Until then, shut up and do what you are told.



Actually, I was beginning to think along the same lines, and that this topic has the wrong title.  Perhaps it should have been: "Do you ever get treated as an Adult?"; and the answer will vary on the attitudes of your "Leadership".  Some, so called, leaders believe that all below them are children (and treat them that way) and that is their "leadership style".  The more experienced know that their subordinates are adults, and respect them for what they are capable of, giving them due recognition of that fact, and these are the true Leaders.  They know that their position of good standing is due to the hard work and dedication of their subordinates.  These are the Leaders, NCM or Officer, who's subordinates will follow to Hell and back.


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## aesop081 (1 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> I guess the two others and I should have stayed longer to ensure the last one made his bed. I guess it really is the course senior's problem when he has to go room-to-room to make sure everyone has left for breakfast (something never heard of in BMQ and SQ).



Is that the click of a lightbulb comming on i just heard ?


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## George Wallace (1 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> .............(something never heard of in BMQ and SQ).



Well.  That says a lot.  Looks, now, like a failure of the Instructors to Teach, not the Students to Learn.


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## Delta (1 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Well.  That says a lot.  Looks, now, like a failure of the Instructors to Teach, not the Students to Learn.


Well, back then in BMQ/SQ, everyone figured it that the instructors will know who skipped breakfast, so noone risked it; however some on DP1 thought otherwise. DP1 staffs' response, make the course senior check each room before he is to go for breakfast.


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## George Wallace (1 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> Well, back then in BMQ/SQ, everyone figured it that the instructors will know who skipped breakfast, so noone risked it; however some on DP1 thought otherwise. DP1 staffs' response, make the course senior check each room before he is to go for breakfast.



Crse Senior on every Crse, BMQ, SQ, DP1, PLQ, QL5, etc. always have the same duties.   They must insure that the Crse is all ready and all present.  That includes making sure everything in the Shacks is good to go.  

Sorry that this comes as such a shock to you, but your instructors from the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada must have let you down from the 'get go'.  That is just another poor reflection on them.


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## Delta (2 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Crse Senior on every Crse, BMQ, SQ, DP1, PLQ, QL5, etc. always have the same duties.   They must insure that the Crse is all ready and all present.  That includes making sure everything in the Shacks is good to go.
> 
> Sorry that this comes as such a shock to you, but your instructors from the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada must have let you down from the 'get go'.  That is just another poor reflection on them.


1. I don't know, given that everyone who replied has more life experience than me, I'll just turn on soldier mode and accept everything that is being fed to me.

2. Where you get Seaforth Highlanders of Canada from?


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## aesop081 (2 Sep 2008)

Delta said:
			
		

> 1. I don't know, given that everyone who replied has more life experience than me, I'll just turn on soldier mode and accept everything that is being fed to me.



Accept it because its a fact. In my 16 years in the CF, the duties of course senior have been the same regardless of what course i was on, in both the army and the air force.

Leadership: Learn it, love it, live it.


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