# Canadian Sniper Quits Military



## JasonH (21 Aug 2005)

> Canadian Sniper Quits Military
> Josh Pringle
> Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:16 AM
> 
> ...



Ugh, if he thinks he was feeling abandoned after all that crap I'm glad the fella's gone.  Goodjob for supporting and doing your dutie, but otherwise he loses all respect for all that shit.

This isn't vietnam where collecting ears was the thing, you'd think you'd be a little different some decades later.  I see things on the battlefield never change.  Takeing a finger just goes beyond that, it's disrespectful to the lowest denominator.  But that's just me, sorry for venting.


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## vangemeren (21 Aug 2005)

What's the source, I want to read the whole article if possible.


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## garb811 (21 Aug 2005)

You need to read the article more carefully before going off.



> Perry was later accused...



Nowhere does it say he was charged and convicted of these allegations so your rant is unwarranted at this point.


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## NavComm (21 Aug 2005)

Here's a Canadian Press story that says he was cleared of those allegations, it's dated 2003. 

Forces investigated allegations that a soldier desecrated bodies 
  
Master Cpl. Arron Perry, a Canadian sniper who was on the front lines of fighting the war of terrorism in Afghanistan, is shown examining the remains of a dead al-Qaida fighter in this photo taken March 3, 2002 in Eastern Afghanistan. (CP/Stephen Thorne)  
STEPHEN THORNE



OTTAWA (CP) - An internal Canadian Forces investigation has been looking into allegations that a front-line soldier in the war on terrorism in Afghanistan desecrated the bodies of two dead al-Qaida fighters. 

The 10-month probe by the military's National Investigation Service concerned allegations that the soldier cut the finger off one body and defecated on another, sources told The Canadian Press. Military officials say the investigation is completed and none of the allegations have been proved. The soldier at the centre of the investigation returned to full duty at Canadian Forces Base Edmonton on Friday after his 10-month paid suspension was lifted. 

"The investigation has ceased for the time being due to (lack of) evidence," said Lieut. Walter Moniz, a Defence Department spokesman in Ottawa. 

"But if other evidence is brought forth in the future, they can reopen the investigation." 

A National Investigation Service spokesman confirmed a probe was conducted based on alleged violations of Section 182 of the Criminal Code - improperly or indecently interfering with or offering any indignity to human remains. 

"The allegations were along those lines," said Capt. Mark Giles. 

"The NIS did investigate this one very thoroughly. They take these sorts of allegations very seriously. There wasn't deemed to be adequate evidence to proceed with charges. At this point, the case is concluded." 

A senior officer at CFB Edmonton said the soldier is back on duty and won't face internal discipline. 

"There is no further disciplinary action that will take place in regards to the matter overseas." 

Military officials have said the investigation concerned allegations against Master Cpl. Arron Perry, a member of Edmonton's 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. He led a three-man sniper detachment through some of the Afghan campaign's fiercest fighting. 

Perry acknowledged in an interview that he was the focus of the probe but has denied all of the allegations "100 per cent." 

"These allegations were false from the beginning. A 10-month investigation went on and they are still false." 

Perry returned to work Friday but was there just an hour - long enough to collect his orders. 

He said he plans to take some leave. The suspension didn't allow him to leave the Edmonton area and now he needs to take care of personal business, he said. 

"I'm just taking care of my mind right now," said Perry. "Because when I go on that base, I don't feel myself. So I'm making sure that I am mentally OK." 

Perry was also accused of setting up a so-called trophy photo of one of the bodies days after the Canadians led a March 14 attack in eastern Afghanistan. 

Previous reports of the Perry investigation have focused on an allegation that he placed a cigarette in a dead man's mouth and a sign on his chest reading Fuck Terrorism. He at one time had also been facing court martial for allegedly threatening a military chaplain, but the charge was dropped last July. 

But several sources have told The Canadian Press the investigation was looking into far more serious allegations. 

Sources said the investigation started after other soldiers came forward with the accusations that two al-Qaida corpses had been desecrated. 

One was killed by an American air strike and the other by U.S. soldiers who stormed a cave-and-bunker complex that had been discovered by Canadian reconnaissance troops. Perry and two other Canadian snipers were part of the attack. 

Moniz wouldn't confirm specifics of the investigation, but said any such alleged incident would be reprehensible. 

"I can tell you, this is certainly not something that we condone." 

Lt.-Col. Pat Stogran, commander of Canadian Forces in Afghanistan, asked for the NIS investigation into the allegations after the troops finished a five-day sweep of a mountain known as the Whale at the tail end of the U.S.-led mission called Operation Anaconda. 

The call for an investigation came within a day of the troops returning to Bagram in northern Afghanistan after at least one soldier came forward with information about indignities to corpses. 

Investigators, including forensic and DNA experts, along with security and burial details, returned to the mountain site about 35 minutes' flight from Bagram several days after the main assault force had returned March 17. 

Giles said investigators had just two hours on the site. They collected DNA and took photographs. 

A week later, Perry's tent at the battle group's base in Kandahar was searched and a knife, a pocket tool and other objects were seized. Giles said they didn't link DNA from the seized items with the dead men. 

"The NIS took this seriously and believed there to have been a likelihood that an offence had occurred," said Giles. "But during that time frame there were as many as 100 Canadian and American soldiers that passed by. 

"Who knows who could potentially have been involved?" 

Investigators were told the alleged incident occurred when most Canadian troops had been taken off the mountain, leaving five snipers and a few other soldiers alone without air support. 

The corpses lay about 40 metres away, out of sight, along with the rotting carcass of a donkey. 

Investigators were told that at some time during the evening, Perry returned to the group with a finger from one of the bodies. 

"He had it in a Baggie - a Ziploc Baggie - and held it up in front of the guys," said one soldier, who spoke on condition of anonymity. 

The snipers, said the soldier, had joked with some American troops before they were deployed that the Canadians would bring them back a souvenir. 

"It was all on the pretense that (Perry) was bringing it back as a joke," said the soldier, who was questioned by military officials conducting the investigation. 

"It crossed a lot of moral boundaries." 

Investigators were also told Perry bragged that he had defecated on the body of another al-Qaida fighter whose head had been blown off during the fighting. 

A military source who spoke with the men who were present that night said they were disturbed by what they saw. 

"They were just grossed out by the thing." 

Perry admitted there was some joking with American soldiers about the headless body, but he vehemently denied doing anything to the corpse. 

"There was a joke about it," he said. 

"I said . . . 'You know the slogan I'll rip your head off and shit down your neck?' We joked about that." 

Perry also denied allegations put to him by investigators that he used a shovel to hack off the finger of the other body. 

"I did not do that. To the best of my knowledge, no one . . . did anything like that. In fact, I think that's part of the way he died, honestly. There was a big chunk out of the side of his hand. There was a wound to his midsection." 

Another soldier who was present during the time of the alleged incident supported Perry's version of events. 

"Nobody took any parts off of anyone," said the soldier, who was also questioned by investigators. 

Perry was charged with misconduct and sent back to Edmonton on April 4 after he was alleged to have sworn at a chaplain at the base in Kandahar. 

Perry has said publicly he was merely venting frustration with fellow soldiers near his tent when the chaplain walked by. He admitted he swore, but said it was in conversation with his compatriots and was not aimed at the chaplain. 

Perry also denied any involvement in placing the cigarette or the anti-terrorism sign on the dead body of an al-Qaida fighter or taking pictures of the body. 

The Canadian Alliance defence critic, Leon Benoit, expressed confidence in the military justice system and praised officials for acting quickly and decisively to investigate allegations. 

"I'm thrilled that the investigation has been dropped," said Benoit. "Something like this would reflect badly on his whole unit, so it was really important that it was cleared up. 

"I think the military handled it right in calling an investigation right away because allegations had been made. It's too bad it wasn't handled like that in Somalia." 

The Canadian military has been sensitive to any allegations of misconduct by its soldiers ever since a civilian was tortured and killed by members of the Canadian Airborne Regiment during a 1992-93 peacekeeping mission to Somalia. Before killing the teenage Somali who was caught on the base, soldiers took "trophy photos" of the victim - pictures that later became public and sparked a high-profile investigation. 

A report by a public inquiry offered 160 recommendations for reform, including improved leadership training and a better selection process for leaders. 

The Airborne Regiment was disbanded as a result of the Somalia debacle, although many former Airborne members served with the Patricias in Afghanistan. Perry, 31, is a former Airborne member who served four overseas tours with the military but never in Somalia. 

Perry is one of the Canadian snipers being considered for U.S. Bronze Star medals for saving dozens of Americans during Anaconda. 

The five snipers faced intense combat for days on end. After eight days taking enemy mortar and machine-gun fire with American 101st Airborne troops, they returned to Bagram for a day before heading out again with the Canadians. 



© The Canadian Press, 2003


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## garb811 (21 Aug 2005)

Thanks NavComm, couldn't remember exactly what was public domain when I posted so I didn't want to get too specific.


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## NavComm (21 Aug 2005)

and here's another one...http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/838784/posts

I found the source of this Josh Pringle story. A quick search of Josh Pringle shows he "is the weekday overnight anchor on 580 CFRA, Reporter for CFRA and frequent contributor to CFRA.com." Wow, what credentials.   :

His 'article' - and that is it in it's entirety -   is irresponsible crap journalism. To make the statement that someone was 'later accused of' when you know full well the charges were investigated and he was cleared of them, is horsesh*t IMHO.

Let's give the MCpl some respect for what he's done for this country instead of slagging him based on the writings of one misinformed or lazy journalist.

Don't swallow whole everything you read on CHUM RADIO websites that was written by CHUM RADIO lackeys employees.

Edited - charges may not be dropped, he was cleared of them, so my edit on that- NavComm


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## NavComm (21 Aug 2005)

MP no problem


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## KevinB (21 Aug 2005)

Not wanting to lead this down the path - but ever wonder why no Patricia's have been vocally supporting him?

and FWIW he did not take the record shot.


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## NavComm (21 Aug 2005)

I hadn't wondered that. I don't know the guy at all and seeing as this thread only started this morning and the only news item I could find on it (using google) was this Josh Pringle one, maybe it's not widely out-there yet?

Time will tell.

Even if it's true that he's been 'sent home in disgrace' I still think the reporting of his previous conduct was sensationalized.


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## McG (21 Aug 2005)

In related news . . . 


> *New military ombudsman ready to clash with the brass*
> Yves Cote takes over as military watchdog
> _Mike Blanchfield
> CanWest News Service
> ...


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## Mineguy (21 Aug 2005)

Proffessional jealousy or feelings of another kind, or somthing that doesnt exist it will be nice to see what substanciates the complaint here after investigation!....


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## The Bread Guy (21 Aug 2005)

Here's something from Sunday's Edm Sun (I highlighted some things that jumped out at me):

http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2005/08/21/1182056-sun.html

Tarred with ugly brush
Top Canadian sniper quits in frustration 

By JEREMY LOOME, EDMONTON SUN

A Canadian Forces sniper who set a distance record by killing an al-Qaida fighter from more than two kilometres away has quit in frustration and may go into mercenary work. 

Master Cpl. Arron Perry made national headlines twice in 2002: the first was anonymous, after he shot an al-Qaida fighter in Afghanistan from 2,430 metres, a world record. 

The second was public and ugly. Perry, 33, and a 13-year veteran, was accused of discreditable conduct after he allegedly cut the finger off an al-Qaida corpse, defecated on another and then had his picture taken with a corpse that had a lit cigarette hanging from his lips and a sign around his neck reading "F**k Terrorism." 

The investigation was eventually dropped and no charges were ever laid, but Perry's reputation was left in tatters. 

A military ombudsman's investigation was launched into whether Perry and other snipers, who were seconded to an American unit to provide cover fire and support, were unfairly treated after their return from Afghanistan. 

Five of the snipers received the Bronze Star from the U.S. military for their efforts, which included killing about 20 members of al-Qaida. 

Perry, originally from Newfoundland, quit at the end of April. 

"I retired because I didn't feel that I was being treated properly and I felt abandoned by the military," he said. "I don't trust anyone. " 

Perry is still surprised at how upset some people got after his picture ran in a national newspaper next to the corpse. 

"It's a dead body. Who cares? You know what, I was glad about that picture. Remember what that sign said? 'F**k Terrorism.' And I still say, 'f**k terrorism.'  

"I saw the sign up there before the picture, and if I didn't like it, I would've taken it off." 

Unlike some of his peers, Perry says he suffered no emotional problems following the mission and his conscience has never been bothered by the killing. 

"It's never overly bothered me. I like what I do."  

He said he seldom thinks about death. 

"I was carrying this wounded American to safety once and he was bleeding real bad, and I don't know whether he lived or died. It never really occurred to me."  

Perry, who was in charge of his sniper unit while in the field, said he'd like to have been made an instructor with the Forces after returning. 

Despite his lengthy service, he'd never even picked up a sniper rifle, or even gone hunting in civilian life, before enrolling in the snipers in 1999. 

His unit was so effective that their American counterparts wanted to work with them whenever possible, and some observers have credited them with almost single-handedly getting Canada onto the list of countries targeted for al-Qaida revenge. 

Perry said he just has a natural talent for gathering intelligence and killing from distance. There's not much call for that in Canada so he is looking abroad for work. 

"My passion is the military and what I was doing. I would want to carry on with that kind of role somewhere in the world, maybe in security or mercenary work," he said.

The ombudsman's office continues to investigate and expects to have a report ready this fall. 

"We continue to have some issues with getting information from Defence but the ombudsman has indicated it will be a top priority," said spokesman Isabelle Rodier.


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## Mineguy (21 Aug 2005)

Thats good for him. Once he gets hired, and no doubt hes already made some contacts with PMCs (or what they like to call mercenaries and wrongly make everyone think they work for a dictator) long ago from word of his exploits. He will get 5 or more times the pay and probably be alot happier away from these types he hates... i know i was. I got out too as a result of the organisation and did the same ( but in my line of work) and im happy as a lark doing what they wouldnt dream letting my old trade do in for fear somebody might get hurt :'( All the power to this guy.


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## Britney Spears (21 Aug 2005)

I saw the good Mcpl on a TV appreance, being interviewed by a female journalist. This was before it was revealed that he was the one with the world record shot. He sounded like a top notch soldier and a great guy, but darn he needs an agent. All through the thing I was yelling "SHUT UP!! SHUT UP!! FOR GOD'S SAKE YOU'RE ON NATIONAL TLELEVISION!!" at the TV, the reporter wasn't even goading him on or anything, just sitting there in horrified silence while listening to him dig himself into a mineshaft. At some points she was even trying to help him and try to steer the conversation away, to no avail.  I don't think he would even be in any trouble today if wasn't so brutally honest with the press  .


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## FastEddy (22 Aug 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> Not wanting to lead this down the path - but ever wonder why no Patricia's have been vocally supporting him?
> 
> and FWIW he did not take the record shot.




Yes, thats a good question, perhaps you could answer that ?


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## Mineguy (22 Aug 2005)

Wow ,

I thought i was wrong about who I heard took the shot by this new article. I know an uncle of one of these snipers back home in nfld who said it was his family member that did that...maybe thats true?


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## NavComm (22 Aug 2005)

If Perry didn't do it,  I'll wager the guy who did must be pretty po'd about it. Sounds like a book deal in the making to me.


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## dutchie (22 Aug 2005)

Now, my memory is fading a bit here, but is this MCpl Perry the same Perry that was injured at Tarnak Farms? I doubt it very much, but I seem to recall there was a Jr rank named Perry injured.

Could someone confirm this? Sort me out?


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## Infanteer (22 Aug 2005)

NavComm said:
			
		

> If Perry didn't do it,   I'll wager the guy who did must be pretty po'd about it. Sounds like a book deal in the making to me.



Or maybe, like most professionals, he isn't really preoccupied with it and just wishes to get on with things?



			
				Caesar said:
			
		

> Now, my memory is fading a bit here, but is this MCpl Perry the same Perry that was injured at Tarnak Farms? I doubt it very much, but I seem to recall there was a Jr rank named Perry injured.
> 
> Could someone confirm this? Sort me out?



No.


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## dutchie (22 Aug 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> No.



Thanks.....it didn't seem right, but it was buggin me, so I had to ask.

I think I know (very, very vaguley from R & R) the fella I was refering to (and maybe even the infamous Perry, too). Got the 2 confused, me thinks. Thanks for sorting me out, Infanteer.

Cheers.


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## NavComm (22 Aug 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Or maybe, like most professionals, he isn't really preoccupied with it and just wishes to get on with things?
> 
> No.



That's very true. I know it might seem insignificant in the great scheme of things but personal rewards from one's jobs are often what a person has too look back on and be proud of in later, reflective years.

It's a pet peeve of mine when someone steals someone else's thunder. I'm not saying that is what's going on in this case but if KevinB's statement "and FWIW he did not take the record shot." is true, then my sense of fair play is offended.

Of course, having said that, the people who need to know the truth probably do and so your analysis is probably far more on the money than mine.


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## McG (22 Aug 2005)

Caesar said:
			
		

> Now, my memory is fading a bit here, but is this MCpl Perry the same Perry that was injured at Tarnak Farms? I doubt it very much, but I seem to recall there was a Jr rank named Perry injured.


That was a B. Perry, not an A. Perry.


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## KevinB (22 Aug 2005)

And B does not like to be confused with A...

A Lot of Patricia's (and other worldy posters here too) know who made that shot.  It was not Aaron, the shooter in question got out of the CF to do a different job that he hold dear.  He has let it known he does NOT want to be identified.

 This ends my discussion.


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## NavComm (22 Aug 2005)

Kevin that's good enough for me. Thank you.


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## dutchie (22 Aug 2005)

MCG said:
			
		

> That was a B. Perry, not an A. Perry.





			
				KevinB said:
			
		

> And B does not like to be confused with A...



Thanks guys. Didn't seem right. No offence intended to 'B'.


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## JasonH (22 Aug 2005)

van Gemeren said:
			
		

> What's the source, I want to read the whole article if possible.



http://www.cfra.com/headlines/index.asp?cat=2&nid=31104

That was the whole article


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## vangemeren (22 Aug 2005)

Thank you. I want to get the whole article so when I read something "sensational", that I get the whole context. From reading this thread, it seems the situation/story is different depending on who reports it.


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## Fry (23 Aug 2005)

yeah, quite funky indeed. I read in a local paper that it was infact the same perry that was accused of taking a finger, that made the approx 2500m shot...


I'll take your word(s) for it.


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## FastEddy (23 Aug 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> And B does not like to be confused with A...
> 
> A Lot of Patricia's (and other worldy posters here too) know who made that shot.   It was not Aaron, the shooter in question got out of the CF to do a different job that he hold dear.   He has let it known he does NOT want to be identified.
> 
> This ends my discussion.




Putting aside who made the shot or who did not. Also that DND does not seem to dispute the published articles.

My question to you still remains, why hasn't any PAT rallied around M/Cpl. Perry since the NIS's case findings.

Everybody seems to want to throw him to the Dogs, including his fellow comrades with some exceptions.

It almost appears that doing your Duty for thirteen years (and well it seems) doesn't count for squat.

Regardless of M/Cpl. Perry's up front and abrasive attitude, maybe if we had more like him we might have more dead Terrorist to worry about._


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## Old Ranger (23 Aug 2005)

When are journalists going to be accountable for inaccurate or half truth stories.
How it is worded to get the best Head line, no matter who it affects?
Who are the unnamed sources? If your going to accuse without evidence;
you obviously don't have 2 swinging in the wind!
Too bad they don't have Army.ca Mods!

Soldier on Perry's, It sucks being accused. But if you did right, that is all that matters!


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## garb811 (23 Aug 2005)

FastEddy:

There is more to this situation than is ever going to come out in this forum but from Kevin's posts, and critical reading of the newspaper articles with those posts kept in mind, you should be able to see some of the issues surrounding Mr Perry and why/how he has alienated himself from his Regiment.

In my first post I was pointing out that accusations, which do not lead to charges and a conviction, are just that, accusations and as such shouldn't be the sole basis for pillorying someone.   This is particularly true when those accusations come from an incomplete article, which, as has been pointed out, was written to be sensational, vice informative in nature.   Now that more information is available, again, do the critical reading and interpret the issue for yourself.


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## NavComm (23 Aug 2005)

Speaking of book deals, we have an author on the forum today


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## FastEddy (23 Aug 2005)

MP 00161 said:
			
		

> FastEddy:
> 
> There is more to this situation than is ever going to come out in this forum but from Kevin's posts, and critical reading of the newspaper articles with those posts kept in mind, you should be able to see some of the issues surrounding Mr Perry and why/how he has alienated himself from his Regiment.
> 
> In my first post I was pointing out that accusations, which do not lead to charges and a conviction, are just that, accusations and as such shouldn't be the sole basis for pillorying someone.   This is particularly true when those accusations come from an incomplete article, which, as has been pointed out, was written to be sensational, vice informative in nature.   Now that more information is available, again, do the critical reading and interpret the issue for yourself.




I'm not following the above reasoning, i.e;

I feel the accusations are unfounded due to the NIS findings and the DND accepting them, which I outlined in my original post. Am I suppose to read something different into those findings ?

I do not credit or deny the statements or claims in the Marksman issue. And by that token I hesitate to accept KevinB's statement that he knows something all of us do not and we all should accept that as fact.

As to Mr. Perry's alienating his Regiment, could it be they alienated him first during the NIS investigations ?

My question was, why has there not been one supporting post by a PAT since this post.

Please point out and list the critical reading that I have seemed to have missed.

Cheers.


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## S McKee (23 Aug 2005)

MP 00161 said:
			
		

> FastEddy:
> 
> There is more to this situation than is ever going to come out in this forum but from Kevin's posts, and critical reading of the newspaper articles with those posts kept in mind, you should be able to see some of the issues surrounding Mr Perry and why/how he has alienated himself from his Regiment.
> 
> In my first post I was pointing out that accusations, which do not lead to charges and a conviction, are just that, accusations and as such shouldn't be the sole basis for pillorying someone.    This is particularly true when those accusations come from an incomplete article, which, as has been pointed out, was written to be sensational, vice informative in nature.    Now that more information is available, again, do the critical reading and interpret the issue for yourself.




As you stated MP their is a lot more to the story than what is reported. Shortly after they're return from Afghanistan I listened to a national radio call in show where one of MCpl Perry's fellow snipers was a guest , he had a very different view of this individual and his conduct.


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## 2 Cdo (23 Aug 2005)

Fast Eddie as a serving Patricia who knows Perry, has worked in the past with Perry, and read some rather self-inflated articles on him, there is a reason for not supporting him. I do think that some of our snipers were treated with disdain by some of our fellow Patricias when we returned from Afghanistan, but Perry has managed to further alienate the people around him. If you act like an ass you will be treated as such.

Also in regards to the longest shot, take it from someone who was there Perry did NOT take the shot!


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## Canadian Caesar (23 Aug 2005)

EDIT: Changed my mind.

I support the findings of the NIS.

Just beacause they guy has slightly underdeveloped interpersonal skills does not mean we should throw him to the dogs.

But what he allegedly did in that picture... and what he even admits to...

I'm not sure that is the best example of soldierly conduct.


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Aug 2005)

After what 2Cdo wrote this thread should be stood down as nothing new will come out of it.  He's not supported because from accounts of others who have worked with him and for him he is an ass.  Enough said.  I'm a new thread will come out when the keystone cops come up with nothing.  Out.


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## dutchie (23 Aug 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> After what 2Cdo wrote this thread should be stood down as nothing new will come out of it.   He's not supported because from accounts of others who have worked with him and for him he is an ***.   Enough said.   I'm a new thread will come out when the keystone cops come up with nothing.   Out.



That was your 3000th post CFL.

And a good one at that.


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## Danjanou (23 Aug 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> After what 2Cdo wrote this thread should be stood down as nothing new will come out of it.



Fair enough any objections, going once... twice... three times. Locked.


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