# What would change if (when) we had a King



## thorbahn (8 Apr 2005)

So I guess eventually we'll have King Charles to replace Queen Elizabeth II, how might this effect the CF?

Would we have the KR&O's? 

Have to change all those pictures hanging up in messes?


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## Big Foot (8 Apr 2005)

The crown on everything would change from a Queen's Crown to a King's Crown.


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## thorbahn (8 Apr 2005)

Ah yes, they better start sewing new WO epaulette's  ;D


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## marshall sl (8 Apr 2005)

No more Queen's Colours either.


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## Infanteer (8 Apr 2005)

Actually, IIRC, it is not "King's Crown" and "Queens Crown" - I believe that there are a few Crowns in the Tower of London and that when Charles becomes King Charles III he has his choice of which Crown he will wear.   Can someone confirm this?


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## Big Foot (8 Apr 2005)

Infanteer, I was refering to the style of crown on top of the cap badges. I imagine we'd go back to the crown style that is found on top of WWII era badges.


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## Pte. Bloggins (8 Apr 2005)

And we would always do one extra push-up for the King, instead of the Queen.   ;D


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2005)

Infanteer is correct, the current crown used on badges, etc., is not explicitly a "Queen's Crown." There would not be a requirement to change.

The crown colloquially known as the "King's crown" as found on badges of the Second World War is properly the "Tudor Crown."

The current crown, in all of its derivations of the past six decades is the British Imperial Crown, applicable to British monarchs of both genders. The alternate version that may be seen on some current badges as well as some pre-1900 helmet plate patterns, is the St Edward's crown, which was a proper Victorian era crown as well.


Badges of The Royal Canadian Regiment; Crowns, Cyphers and Stars
http://regimentalrogue.com/rcrbadges/rcr-badges_crowns.htm


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## Danjanou (8 Apr 2005)

Good thing you posted that clarification . I was just thinking, new Colours & Guidons, new rank badges, new cap badges and new books, all that could use up most of that 12.5 Billion we've been promised pretty fast.


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## Big Foot (8 Apr 2005)

Wouldn't units that have the cypher EIIR in their unit crest (eg: RCHA) also have to change? As well as all band commanders sashes, etc?


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## marshall sl (8 Apr 2005)

What if Charles decides that He wants the so called "King's Crown"? Would we have to change everything then?


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## Infanteer (8 Apr 2005)

I don't think units with Royal Cyphers necessarily have to change.  We have units (Queen's Own Rifles, King's Own Calgary Regiment) that use lineage based upon the Monarch who was sitting at the time of their creation (Am I right on this one?).


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## HItorMiss (8 Apr 2005)

To the best of my limited knowledge any unit that does not wear a monarchs crest in perpetuity (ie the RCR's VRI) will have to change their cypher to match Charles when he becomes King.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Actually, IIRC, it is not "King's Crown" and "Queens Crown" - I believe that there are a few Crowns in the Tower of London and that when Charles becomes King Charles III he has his choice of which Crown he will wear.   Can someone confirm this?



The King's Crown is a Tudor Crown, the Queen's is a St. Edward's Crown.

It is possible it won't change when Charles ascends to the throne, and our cap badges will stay the same.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I don't think units with Royal Cyphers necessarily have to change.   We have units (Queen's Own Rifles, King's Own Calgary Regiment) that use lineage based upon the Monarch who was sitting at the time of their creation (Am I right on this one?).



Yes - I see Mr. O'Leary beat me to my other reply.

Yes, you are correct - some units use a coronet instead of a crown.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Apr 2005)

HitorMiss said:
			
		

> To the best of my limited knowledge any unit that does not wear a monarchs crest in perpetuity (ie the RCR's VRI) will have to change their cypher to match Charles when he becomes King.



Only if Charles changes first, though.


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## thorbahn (8 Apr 2005)

I'm quite confident King Charles might want to have the "ER II" which is inscribed on top of the barrel of the 105 Howitzer changed.


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## Old Sweat (8 Apr 2005)

The Master Gunner can probably correct me, but the crest on the barrels signifies that it has been accepted into service. One of the first things we did when we took delivery of both the M109s and L5s was to etch the cypher on each piece after it was test fired. I believe there is an EME instruction that outlines the procedure. As a mark of acceptance into service, it need not be changed, and frankly I can not imagine how it could be.

The Royal Canadian Regiment has proudly born VRI through several generations of descendants of Queen Victoria without changing, and I am sure they will continue to do the same after we are all dead and gone.


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## HItorMiss (8 Apr 2005)

The Royal Canadian Regiment wears HM Queen Victoria's cypher because we were granted the right to wear it in perpetuity, which means monarchs come and go but our VRI will remain forever on our cap badge for as long as the regiment exists.


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## Inch (8 Apr 2005)

The crowns don't always change. Here's the 1st Hussars capbadge with none of the 4 crowns shown in M O'Leary's link.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Apr 2005)

Inch said:
			
		

> The crowns don't always change. Here's the 1st Hussars capbadge with none of the 4 crowns shown in M O'Leary's link.



That's what I meant when I said "coronet".


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## Inch (8 Apr 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> That's what I meant when I said "coronet".



Gotcha, you were speaking in tongues, I thought next you were going to say that the King wears wears a peaked collar vice a shawl.


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## thorbahn (8 Apr 2005)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> The Master Gunner can probably correct me, but the crest on the barrels signifies that it has been accepted into service. One of the first things we did when we took delivery of both the M109s and L5s was to etch the cypher on each piece after it was test fired. I believe there is an EME instruction that outlines the procedure. As a mark of acceptance into service, it need not be changed, and frankly I can not imagine how it could be.



I was going by what my BC (Bty Commander) talked to us about last Parade night. He said that when the new monarch takes over, all the new barrels for the guns that are made will have the new cypher. Before long the old barrel comes off and the new one takes it's place.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> That's what I meant when I said "coronet".



A coronet is also found on the badge of the Princess Louise Fusiliers.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2005)

thorbahn said:
			
		

> I was going by what my BC (Bty Commander) talked to us about last Parade night. He said that when the new monarch takes over, all the new barrels for the guns that are made will have the new cypher. Before long the old barrel comes off and the new one takes it's place.



I know of no precedent for the replacement of ordnance based on the change of sovereign.


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## Tpr.Orange (8 Apr 2005)

The entire EME branch would have to change cap badges, buttons on Deus, collar dogs and lappel pins.


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## Michael OLeary (8 Apr 2005)

CFN. Orange said:
			
		

> The entire EME branch would have to change cap badges, buttons on Deus, collar dogs and lappel pins.



Why? Did you read through this thread before posting?


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## a_majoor (9 Apr 2005)

What would really throw things in a tail spin is the fact that Charles will be likely be king for a short period of time before William acsends the throne (This is a bit like Prince Edward being King for a few short years after Victoria's death).

After the mad dash to determine the "proper" crown and get CIIIR on everything, we will have to scrape off the paint, pull out the sewing kits and do it all over again for HRH William III....


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Apr 2005)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> What would really throw things in a tail spin is the fact that Charles will be likely be king for a short period of time before William acsends the throne (This is a bit like Prince Edward being King for a few short years after Victoria's death).
> 
> After the mad dash to determine the "proper" crown and get CIIIR on everything, we will have to scrape off the paint, pull out the sewing kits and do it all over again for HRH William III....



Wouldn't that be HM William III?


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## muskrat89 (9 Apr 2005)

The cypher on the barrel is due to the fact that the Guns are our Colours. There is also some kind of "proof mark" or similar engraving on the barrel, Old Sweat - that signifies test and acceptance. If I remember correctly, it may be a small crown...


From the Standing Orders of the Regiment, page 4-1



> When, in 1893, Queen Victoria conferred the title â Å“Royalâ ? on the artillery in Canada, the
> honour included the right to engrave on artillery equipment the Imperial Cypher VRI surmounted
> by the Imperial Crown. The honour is perpetuated today by inscribing the Royal Cypher of the
> reigning monarch on each artillery piece



I don't have access to it, but  





> Instructions concerning the application of the Royal Cypher are found in Canadian
> Forces Technical Order (CFTO) C-71-010-021/MN 000.


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## a_majoor (9 Apr 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Wouldn't that be HM William III?



I believe either will do.

The correct form of address for Infanteer is "Imperator"


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## Old Sweat (9 Apr 2005)

Muskrat,

Thank you very much for your clarification.

Ubique,

Old Swaet


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## patrick666 (10 Apr 2005)

I was watching the news today about how more than half of Canadians would like to seperate from the Monarchy and it was said that Prince Charles has taken "a keen interest in the Canadian regiments". 

What do you think this means for the Canadian Forces? Good, bad?

Think he'll be interested in "lending" us some billions of dollars?  :

Cheers


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## a_majoor (11 Apr 2005)

From a purely constitutional point of view that is impossible. One outcome of the English Civil War was that the Army belonged to Parliament, so the King would not have an instrument to oppress the people or usurp Parliamentary prerogatives. The Navy was still "Royal" in the sense it was the duty of the crown to defend the realm from foreign invasions (and this analogy applies to the Air Force as well).

The British Army was never a "unitary" army like that of France or Germany, but was considered in theory and practice (at least until the mid 1800s) to be a collection of more or less independent regiments. Some of these regiments were associated with the Crown ("Household" troops), and others could have the Royal Warrent bestowed upon them for exemplary service. We have evolved from the same pattern and maintained some of the same customs. 

Apologies to the historians out there who know I have painted this with a very broad brush, but this is the quick and dirty answer to why Charles (or HRH Elizabeth II, for that matter) cannot "loan" money or otherwise directly become involved in the units of the commonwealth armies.


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## 043 (12 Apr 2005)

Hopefully nothing would change............IMHO we don't need a King or a Queen for that matter.


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## Highland Laddie (12 Apr 2005)

Well, the good old former Guardsman will have to throw his 2 cents here...

The Queen or King is referred to as Her / His Majesty - hence HM

All other promenant Royals (ie Prince Charles, etc) are referred to as His / Her Royal Highness - hence HRH

All minor Royals (ie Duchess of Kent, etc) are referred to by their title.

I knew all that protocol training for the Royal visit in 1997 would come in usefull some year 

On the cap badge note, the Canadian Grenadier Guards would definitely change. As a Guards regiment their 'grenade fired proper' always has the Royal Cypher of the current Monarch. I imagine any other regiments that follow this 'tradition' would also change, but I have no idea who they might be. All the other regiments I can think of do not change their names with a change in monarch (ie King's Own, etc.).


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## Gunnar (12 Apr 2005)

Actually, you can refer to Dukes or Duchesses as "His Grace" or "Her Grace".  I believe there are few level-specific titles lower than that....


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## Highland Laddie (12 Apr 2005)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> Actually, you can refer to Dukes or Duchesses as "His Grace" or "Her Grace".   I believe there are few level-specific titles lower than that....



Gunnar, I think your right. My bad for trying to give too simplistic an answer.

If anyone here has ever been an ADC to the Governor General or the various Lt-Governors, they would know for sure.


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## JBB (12 Apr 2005)

This would be the perfect time to get the crown off the Capbadges, and for the country to move on.


JBB


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

But would "PPCLI" now become "CLI" (and still be 2/3 mech).  ;D

Time for Numbered Regiments (that's how they started out, anyways....)  8)


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## Kat Stevens (12 Apr 2005)

Yeah, LOVE those numbers.... "I'm from the 4th of 12th of the 109th of the 6th Oil Change Division".  That's a thing to be proud of..... ;D


CHIMO,  Kat


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Yeah, LOVE those numbers.... "I'm from the 4th of 12th of the 109th of the 6th Oil Change Division".   That's a thing to be proud of..... ;D



Hey, I'm looking at my Regimental History of the "Fighting" 5th Marines Regiment right now.   They have a unit lineage that surpasses most of our units.

As well, we seem to do well with our numbered CEF battalions.

Name or number is not important.


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## Edward Campbell (12 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> 
> Time for Numbered Regiments (that's how they started out, anyways....)   8)



If you insist; I suppose we wouldn't mind being know, far and wide, as Canada's First  and Finest


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## Infanteer (12 Apr 2005)

That's not a number, Edward - it would have to be "Canada's 1st and Finest".   ;D


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## Edward Campbell (12 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> That's not a number, Edward - it would have to be "Canada's 1st and Finest".     ;D



I guess we would have to revert to 1st  of Foot and 1st of Sitting on Arse in Saddle (or someting like that), because the black-hats will likely want to be 1st of something or other, too.


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## muskrat89 (12 Apr 2005)

The most professional and dignified Units *already* use numbers.....

M MacFarlane
89th Fd Bty, 3 RCA

It's about time the crass caught up..      ;D


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## Young KH (18 Jul 2005)

The Coins and bills mostly.
Other then that who cares?


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## ibilola (18 Jul 2005)

If the Monarchy is replaced by a Republic, the rank crowns will probably be replaced altogether.


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## FormerHorseGuard (19 Jul 2005)

we would have to stand at attention for god save the king,  kr&o s his Mcs  for the navy, the cap badges  other then that  not much, and lots of paper things


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## Bill Smy (19 Jul 2005)

The crown used on many of Canadian regimental badges and the amorial bearings of Her Majesty in the Right of Canada (commonly referred to as the Canadian coat of arms) is St Edwards Crown, the official crown of the coronation although Queen Victoria and Edward VII chose not to be crowned with it due its weight.

The crown commonly referred to as the "King's Crown" is the Imperial State Crown. Not all Kings, however, chose this crown in their insignia.

Charles will make the decision.


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## TheNomad (20 Sep 2005)

Point to note at it stands at the moment the line of succession is:

C III R
W V R

Bearing in mind it is also possible that the Prince of Wales could change his name on accession to the throne and decide to be another Edward (XIX in this case) or George VII.  He can pick any of the crowns from the Crown Jewels as his crown, and indeed could elect to use the St Edwards Crown the same as HM The Queen.


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## bdog (25 Jan 2007)

TheNomad said:
			
		

> Point to note at it stands at the moment the line of succession is:
> 
> C III R
> W V R
> ...



because this is link from a major page the Prince of Wales as all but offical stated that he will be George VII in honour of his Grandfather and because of the history linked to Charles 
so it likly that 
G VII R
W V  R


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