# Committment Needed



## IN HOC SIGNO (19 May 2007)

Saw a great commercial for Marine Corps recruiting today while I was watching NBC coverage of the Buffalo and Ottawa hockey game. the commercial focussed on those things that make the Marine Corps an elite group....the silent drill team...the fitness...the espirit de corps.....then the slogan at the end ...."the Marine Corps...we're not taking applications...we're looking for commitments."
wow....exactly...this is what we should be looking for too in the CF. This is not a job...this is a lifestyle...and if you're joining so you can learn to fly and then go make bucks with Air Canada (lots of pilots on my basic used to say this) or get a trade so you can go to Alberta and make big bucks then you're joining for the wrong reasons. I have always felt that we sell ourselves short in the CF. The RCMP has a waiting list of people lining up to join because they have maintained that they are special....not like any other job or police force....similar to the message that the Marine Corps is putting out.
this is what we should be doing in the CF. Make it an organization that people want to join because of it's uniqueness not for what people can get from the system to enable them to go on to something else.


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## deedster (19 May 2007)

Precisely why I started the process even though I'm going on 50+ Padre. (slow learner  )
Good point!


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## conqueror (25 May 2007)

yea but if every one becomes soldiers and there like a million canadian soldiers and there only soldiers and they have no trades or no other specialties what happens when war stops? basically these soldiers get fucked over and thrown in the garbage. and the the depression happens all over again


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 May 2007)

Son, that temporary timeout I gave you last night is becoming close to a full-time one.....


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## Vash13 (25 May 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Saw a great commercial for Marine Corps recruiting today while I was watching NBC coverage of the Buffalo and Ottawa hockey game. the commercial focussed on those things that make the Marine Corps an elite group....the silent drill team...the fitness...the espirit de corps.....then the slogan at the end ...."the Marine Corps...we're not taking applications...we're looking for commitments."
> wow....exactly...this is what we should be looking for too in the CF. This is not a job...this is a lifestyle...and if you're joining so you can learn to fly and then go make bucks with Air Canada (lots of pilots on my basic used to say this) or get a trade so you can go to Alberta and make big bucks then you're joining for the wrong reasons. I have always felt that we sell ourselves short in the CF. The RCMP has a waiting list of people lining up to join because they have maintained that they are special....not like any other job or police force....similar to the message that the Marine Corps is putting out.
> this is what we should be doing in the CF. Make it an organization that people want to join because of it's uniqueness not for what people can get from the system to enable them to go on to something else.



Excellent point man... This is exactly what I have always thought about the CF.  When I put in my application, it wasn't because I wanted to get paid, or wanted to use the forces for my own reasons.  In fact I had completely forgotten that I would get paid in the reserves.  I didn't know anything about benefits or incentives or anything like that.  I applied because I wanted to be part of something bigger.  A way of life.  A brotherhood or family.  I still have no idea how much I will be paid.  And I don't even care.  I am ready to commit 110%.


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## aesop081 (25 May 2007)

conqueror said:
			
		

> yea but if every one becomes soldiers and there like a million canadian soldiers and there only soldiers and they have no trades or no other specialties what happens when war stops? basically these soldiers get fucked over and thrown in the garbage. and the the depression happens all over again



 :rofl:

.......This is your brain on drugs......


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## GAP (25 May 2007)

Always care about what and when you are going to be paid. That said, it's not necessarily the main motivation. (otherwise, I would not have served in Viet Nam for $265.00/month with $65.00 of that being combat pay, and the rest was, luckily, tax free)


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## Vash13 (25 May 2007)

For sure.  It's not like I completely don't ever care if a cheque comes or not.  Obviously hard work done deserves compensation (a 'job' *laugh*) but it wasn't even a factor in my deciding to enlist.  That being said, I will most certainly expect a cheque every pay cycle   If I didn't care at all about pay etc. then I wouldn't be going through all this bloody trouble to try and track down my cadet file.  (oops, used a taboo word )


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## Bobby Rico (25 May 2007)

I just saw that commercial the other night actually, and it was impressive----far more so than some of the other cheesy Marine Corps recruiting commercial they've had in the past.  I think its message is fundimentally universal for all branches of the military in any country really.  Military service should never be viewed as a job.  It shouldn't even be viewed as a career really.  As someone else already said, it's a lifestyle choice you're making when you enlist, less of an employment opportunity.  Of course, you should always be compensated for your efforts.


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## SupersonicMax (25 May 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> and if you're joining so you can learn to fly and then go make bucks with Air Canada (lots of pilots on my basic used to say this)



Well, you will certainly be happy to learn that in the new OD program on Pilot Training put the emphasis on the fact that this is not the Air Canada Training Program.  We are warrior, whatever we fly.  In my opinion (from what I see), there are less and less people in for the ACTP.  There is, however an other problem.  Some people "don't want to go to war and kill people" so they only want to fly domestic SAR.  I guess this mentality was possible in the 80-90, but in the future (even now), I wouldn't be surprise to see every type deployed (including SAR).

Max


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## Bobby Rico (25 May 2007)

It's funny you mention people not wanting to go to war SupersonicMax.  Many of my civilian friends who I talk to about being in the military say the same thing "Oh, I'm thinking of joining, but I don't want to go to war."

My answer to them is invariably "Then don't enlist."

I honestly don't understand what compels people to wanting to join the forces if they don't want to go to war.  Not to suggest anyone wants to go to war, but I think people that do join should understand that it's a real possibility and if there is any doubt whatsoever about going to war, they should just stay out.


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## Staff Weenie (25 May 2007)

What compels people? Many reasons, some noble, others crap.

I can look through dozens of Res F units, and find people who only want that education subsidy of $2K per year, plus whatever they make on Class A.

I've had troops that were doing great on QL2 (now BMQ) until it came time to fire the rifle, then they jumped up and down about their objection to 'guns', and how they didn't think Medics would have to use them. Well, how the hell are ya going to protect that wounded soldier? With your good intentions and a Red Cross?

I've also had soldiers who joined to serve Canada, learn a trade, sometimes to turn their lives around become something.

You can tell, within a few minutes of meeting a new recruit, exactly why they joined.


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## kratz (25 May 2007)

Naval Reserve completed a survey of their sailors and found nearly 95% released within the first 5 years after enrollment. This is on par with finishing high school and completing an undergraduate degree. If there is to be more of a commitment encouraged, there would probably need to be a shift in recruitment and retention.


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## Brett (25 May 2007)

The Canadian Forces commercial, the one with the very dramatic colour-tone and the low-key "thumping", is an inspirational commercial as well. I've never seen the U.S. Marine Corps. commercial, and I probably don't want to see it. The CF recruiting commercial is basically asking for the same thing, minus the words. The flood aid in that commercial was cf personnell. In afghanistan, cf personnell. On the high seas, rescuing civilians, the cf personnell. All of those clips on that commercial are not "asking" people to join because of a job, or because of decent pay, or even because of the extra windows that open when you leave; it's basically asking people to * commit * their lives not only for the defence of the country, but also for the defence of other people's lives when they're threatened by natural things like floods, famine, etc.

You can't simply join the canadian forces for just one reason as well. There's usually many different reasons as to why one wishes to join. Commitment is obviously one as well because you spend a lot of time in the forces.

Now, there is also nothing wrong with having a pay check your most valuable motivation for joining the forces. It may not reflect the ethic of your work done, and it may reflect it.

Regardless, I'd have to say the guys in my regiment are pretty determined to fulfill the expectations of the Canadian Forces in a manner befitting a * true Canadian solder*. and that's just in _ my regiment_. there's thousands out there probably just like them.


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## retiredgrunt45 (25 May 2007)

When I joined in the late 70's most people joined for economic reasons, but most stayed on and made a career out of it, very few released after their first hitch. Also back then a university degree wasn't as sought after as it is today, seems today we have young people joining just for the post graduate education funding, once its completed, they leave. The CF is starting to reflect the civilian job market, young people don't stay in one job for very long anymore, their always looking for greener pastures somewhere else. Sometimes they find it and sometimes they don't. 

The pay and benefits in the CF are very attractive, compared to the civilian sector were making good money often means having somekind of specialty training or a university degree and even then, doesn't always guarantee good wages. 

 Also with the uncertainty of the civilian market, you are always fearful of downsizing, layoffs, closures. 
 In the CF, your wage is guaranteed no matter what. 

 I'll be the first one to admit the military is not for everyone and for the ones who have the staying power good for you, we need more just like you. 

 And yes of course there is serving your country, pride in what you do and accomplish, and belonging to something bigger than yourself.

 If I hadn't of got hurt, I would be still in and I don't regret one day of my service, I enjoyed every day, good and bad. 

For me the most memorable experience was the wonderful people who I served with and the people I met along the way, great, wonderful  bunch every one of them. 

 Pro Patria.


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## SupersonicMax (25 May 2007)

Having said that, and after reading all that, I have nothing against people that come to the end of their contract and will release and take a better opportunity (whatever it might be for... Pay, Family, Quality of Life, Etc...)  As long as they respect their contract.

Max


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## Good2Golf (25 May 2007)

As society changes, so does the general flavour of commitment.  It's probably a fair statement that society today is used to more change and so one shouldn't necessarily assume someone would decide to dedicate an entire life/career to something, especially when they are still sorting things out for themselves as they continue to mature.

I too, have absolutely nothing bad to say about folks who serve the time of their contract and decide to leave the military and do other things.  That's entirely their right and they should be thanked for their service to Country, no matter how short their contract.

p.s. We could also do with a few commercials with a bit more energy, maybe some 30sec/60sec versions of one like this (made with released vid clips from DND).

G2G


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## niner domestic (25 May 2007)

I think Dr Franklin Pinch summed up quite nicely the need of the CF to continue to have room to be flexible: 

Human resources specialists may disagree about whether the nature of military work calls for long-term commitment. But since the Cold War, the needs of the armed forces have fluctuated more, says Dr. Franklin Pinch, a human resources consultant and an adjunct professor at the Royal Military College in Kingston.

"You basically would like to have what the military calls a 'surge requirement,' " says Pinch, or to be able to get a lot of people when the need arises. "The military does need long-term members, and they also need short-term members." http://www.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/19012001/n6.htm


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## IN HOC SIGNO (25 May 2007)

I agree with a lot that has been said. In my original post I didn't mean that short term contract people were less important or not desired. Committment is committment for however long you have signed up. I'm glad to hear that the Air Force is adapting a warrior attitude again...it is needed.
When I joined on my initial 9 year (SSE) I saw it as an oportunity to try the lifestyle and see if it fit me. After finding that it did I took a further commitment (IE then an IPS).

I just get tired of hearing in the Reg Force of folks who use the system for their own purposes but never put out when it's time to make a sacrifice or show commitment by giving back. We are well compensated in most of our trades and the reason is because we have signed a contract which states that we are available to do tough things that our civilian equivalents don't have to do...like maybe give up our lives should the need arise. We should not soft sell this aspect of our service when we advertise. It is what makes us different. If you make your organization attractive by saying that you give a trade or a degree or whatever but downplay the aspect of sacrifice and service then you are starting people on the wrong foot by giving them the impression that this is a "make work or glorified welfare organization." 

I can't tell you how many folks I get in my office who have an overblown "sense of entitlement" simply because they belong to the organization...yet don't have the same "sense of responsibility" when it comes to performance of their duty. As a Padre I don't mince my words when I get whingers sitting in the chair, I gotta tell you.
I have all kinds of compassion for those in need but not those who are "players."


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## Good2Golf (25 May 2007)

IN HOC, that's a valid point about folks and entitlement...it's not a new phenomenon either.  I f think we'll find that with the reality of CF operations today, very few new members of the CF would be surprised about having to deploy.  Somewhere between the pullout of CFE and the Balkans (or thereabout) it was still relatively easy not to be one of the few hundred folks not supporting operations (i.e. happy to draw a paycheck but anywhere from not thrilled to actively avoiding anything beyond a 9-to-5'er in the CF.)  I would fully support your distaste for mincing words...treat people straight up and they generally get on with things they'd otherwise try and find an excuse to not deal with...

G2G


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## kratz (25 May 2007)

IN HOC SIGNO;

One of the best 'Padre Hour' that I attended, had the visiting Padre tell it like it is and he pulled no punches to the young OS and AB in the crowd.  He made it clear to those entering the service what commitment would be expected of them. Keep up the good work.


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## Vash13 (25 May 2007)

The thing that really ticks me off, is people who join, who at their very core, whether they can admit it or not, are there for themselves, not for their brothers and sisters, and not for their country.  Of course you always need to look out for yourself, you gain much from the training and all that jazz, but I don't know about anyone else, but I am joining the CF to get away from all this 'me me me' B....S.... that has plunged our world into the state it is in now.  I am not saying that you have to put your life on the line for something you don't believe in, it's all our individual freedom, but I am so sick of this self-serving attitude that seems to be plaguing EVERYTHING in EVERY aspect of life.  If you sign on, and fulfill your contract, and decide to discharge, that's completely fine.  But what gets me is the fact that you wear the uniform, you bear your country's flag, and you represent the core of your country's beliefs, and if you are wearing that uniform under false pretenses, well...  Whether you fulfill the contract or not.  It's just a piece of paper, a political (I don't mean politics of government) agreement.  If you aren't there for the right reasons, contract or not, you should not be in the forces.  Maybe I am blinded by my own sense of selflessness, my attitude towards commitment, but it's my .02, for whatever it is worth.  To me, the forces are a way of life, job, career, and money play only an indirect role.  The man/woman beside me is what really matters.


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## SupersonicMax (25 May 2007)

Vash13 said:
			
		

> The thing that really ticks me off, is people who join, who at their very core, whether they can admit it or not, are there for themselves, not for their brothers and sisters, and not for their country.  Of course you always need to look out for yourself, you gain much from the training and all that jazz, but I don't know about anyone else, but I am joining the CF to get away from all this 'me me me' B....S.... that has plunged our world into the state it is in now.  I am not saying that you have to put your life on the line for something you don't believe in, it's all our individual freedom, but I am so sick of this self-serving attitude that seems to be plaguing EVERYTHING in EVERY aspect of life.  If you sign on, and fulfill your contract, and decide to discharge, that's completely fine.  But what gets me is the fact that you wear the uniform, you bear your country's flag, and you represent the core of your country's beliefs, and if you are wearing that uniform under false pretenses, well...  Whether you fulfill the contract or not.  It's just a piece of paper, a political (I don't mean politics of government) agreement.  If you aren't there for the right reasons, contract or not, you should not be in the forces.  Maybe I am blinded by my own sense of selflessness, my attitude towards commitment, but it's my .02, for whatever it is worth.  To me, the forces are a way of life, job, career, and money play only an indirect role.  The man/woman beside me is what really matters.



I don,t totally agree with you there.  Yes, you need a certain level of dedication to be in the military.  However, if your only option is the military, that is kinda foolish.  You always have to keep your options open.  And the CFs knows that and they provide you with the tools so that if one day you can't do/don't want to be in the military anymore, you'll have something to revert to.  It's a balance. You NEED to take care of yourself.  The day you won't be happy anymore in the Forces is the day you'll become a burden rather than a usefull ressource.  This is at that time that you need to reconsider your career.

On the same note, if at the end of your contract, you find something better for yourself or your family, you would be foolish not to take an opportunity that will be better for you.

Max


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## Vash13 (25 May 2007)

I agree fully.  My argument is not about the people who change/mature etc. throughout their time in the forces, but rather those who join strictly for the benefits and not the duty/sense of honour/the life itself, initially.  I totally agree that the military hones you and changes occur within a person all the time, it is a fundamental part of being a human, and you are completely correct in regards to opportunity etc.  I hate leeches, period.  That's my only argument


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## IN HOC SIGNO (26 May 2007)

Vash13 said:
			
		

> I agree fully.  My argument is not about the people who change/mature etc. throughout their time in the forces, but rather those who join strictly for the benefits and not the duty/sense of honour/the life itself, initially.  I totally agree that the military hones you and changes occur within a person all the time, it is a fundamental part of being a human, and you are completely correct in regards to opportunity etc.  I hate leeches, period.  That's my only argument



And then there's the "pension prisoners" 15 years into a 20 or 25 year contract who are miserable and non productive but stay to get the pension making everyone else miserable too.


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## Bobby Rico (28 May 2007)

Well, if I might play Devil's Advocate with regards to Vash's statement about joining for personal reasons-

I think there HAS to be a personal motivating factor to wanting to join the Forces.  I can't speak for everyone, but I know there was one for me- I wanted to better myself by joining an organization greater than me, and give myself a higher calling in life than the average Joe.  That's a very personal reason for wanting to join.  Additionally, my father, whose also a currently serving member of our forces, served as another personally motivating factor- I wanted to follow in his footsteps.  I've always revered my father, and he's one of the most grounded and honorable men I've ever met, and is an example as the kind of man I want to be- and he became that man through his career with the military.

So in a way, I am in the military for personal reasons.  Not completely, but there should be a personal factor for wanting to join.


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## deedster (28 May 2007)

Bobby,
Very commendable aspirations, you sound like you're well on your way to becoming the man your father is...the CF are lucky to have you (both)!  And then there are people like myself who suddenly get "the calling" after spending most of their adult years as civilians. It's never too late to serve our great country and I hope to have the opportunity in whichever way I can.


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## medaid (28 May 2007)

Vash13 said:
			
		

> I agree fully.  My argument is not about the people who change/mature etc. throughout their time in the forces, but rather those who join strictly for the benefits and not the duty/sense of honour/the life itself, initially.  I totally agree that the military hones you and changes occur within a person all the time, it is a fundamental part of being a human, and you are completely correct in regards to opportunity etc.  I hate leeches, period.  That's my only argument



Huh.. and you are so experienced in this field with regards to retention, and applicant reasons for joining because? In the Primary Reserves, there will always be those citizen soldiers who join for the benefits. That is plain and simple. Yes we would like to see more dedication and commitment from them, but in the case of Primary Reserves, it is not possible. Why? Because Reservists do NOT sign contracts. Other then the 1 night a week one weekend a month initial commitment, there is nothing else you can expect from some of these individuals. 

Most Reservists do volunteer overseas, or operations. However, remember 1 thing, the Primary Reserve is a PART-TIME job. Read that again, PART-TIME job. If you want commitment, give the willing ones all Class B contracts and then work with those who are 'dedicated'. If you do that, I guarantee you that most units would downsize at a drastic rate. Please, think before making generalized comments. There are more things involved then simply 'commitment'.



> guys in my regiment are pretty determined to fulfill the expectations of the Canadian Forces in a manner befitting a  true Canadian solder.



Okay, what defines one as a TRUE Canadian soldier? Please think about that. I'm sure there are members of your Regiment who've never participated in an Operation, or have heard a shot fired in anger. Are they less then true Canadian soldiers?


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## IN HOC SIGNO (28 May 2007)

I must say that my original post was purely directed at Reg Force. I know many committed Reservists but you are quite right that they do not owe the same kind of committment that one who signs a Reg Force contract owe.


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## medaid (28 May 2007)

IN HOC, my comments weren't directed at you   I merely wanted to generate more critical analysis on these points.

Currently PRes retention, and commitment is a serious issue at my unit, and in my branch of service in some parts of the country. It is sad to see that some units are greatly reduced in strength, due to a variety of reasons. However, it always seem to come back to commitment, and the higher ups like to cite THAT as the main problem, and not willing to look at other things that may be direct causes to these commitment issues.


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## Greymatters (28 May 2007)

"what defines one as a TRUE Canadian soldier"

Good question: the definition is not the same for every one.


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## medaid (28 May 2007)

GreyMatter said:
			
		

> "what defines one as a TRUE Canadian soldier"
> 
> Good question: the definition is not the same for every one.



and THAT is exactly my point. It is rather too broad and too general and could potentially infuriate some members.


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## Vash13 (29 May 2007)

of course there are personal reasons.  If there wasn't ANY personal reason nobody would join... There is a difference between a personal reason and a selfish reason.


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