# Shooting prisoners and Canadian Army war crimes



## Michael Dorosh (13 Mar 2006)

I realize this may be a contentious issue, but my purpose is not to rile anyone up.

I am having a discussion on another board with a fellow who is convinced that shooting prisoners of war was commonplace in the Canadian Army in the Second World War, and so commonplace that divisional commanders were aware of the practice and condoned it.

I find it a little shocking that anyone could be let to believe this, but one can't combat sweeping generalizations with the same, so I am trying to look at what evidence we have.

Buddy has quoted Barry Broadfoot, a social historian, who published interviews of veterans done many years after the fact. I haven't read the appropriate chapters yet so can't comment.

I know of the following sources as far as "war crimes" and if anyone can help out with some more, I would appreciate it.  The goal is to determine how widely prisoners were killed in Canadian hands.

Incidentally, the official historian, C.P. Stacey, writes in his autobiography that he was only aware of one single Canadian war crime, and it involved no deaths. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada rousted German civilians out of the village of Friesoythe in Apr 1945 when it was believed their beloved CO had been shot dead by a civilian - the Argylls then burned several houses down as a reprisal.  It was illegal, but no one was - AFAIK - prosecuted for the crime.

Other references:
* Gwilym Jones, a TRR trooper in Italy noted in his book THE GREEN FIELDS BEYOND that he witnessed a sergeant of the Van Doos marching prisoners off, then returning a short time later with Tommy Gun slung, chuckling that they had 'tried to escape'.  I consider this anecdotal evidence.
* Max Hastings (and later, the Valour and the Horror) quote a British seaman on Juno Beach who wanted a "tin hat" from some German prisoners he saw marched behind a dune, allegedly by Canadian troops.  His account noted that when he came around the dune, the men were lying dead, with throats cut ear to ear, and he "turned away, sick as a parrot. I never got my tin hat."
* Jacques Dextraze, in the film Valour and the Horror, talks about running prisoners down to a river where many drowned after being forced to ford it.  Anecdotal?
* Ross Munro quoted a Royal Winnipeg Rifles corporal after news of the 12th SS murders spread through 3 Cdn Div in Normandy, who said "any SS man we meet, we just give him the business now."  Anecdotal - no name given.

I think there is a difference between killing a man in the heat of battle - even if he has his hands up - and deliberate shootings.  The 12th SS murders of Canadians involved both types of circumstances - some were deliberately killed well after surrender, others in the act of surrender (technically still a war crime). Still, the 12th SS were inculcated in the idea that the war was one of ideology, and the Russian Front cadre of the division infused that formation with the no-quarter mentality that reigned on the Eastern Front, where surrender usually meant death for SS troops. After the first few days of the Normandy campaign, the 12th SS eased off on the illegal killings, as it became clear (according to a postwar divisional historian) that things were beginning to go badly for them.

The argument my colleague puts forward is that if Canadian killings were systemic (which he argues was the case), there would be no written record.  It bothers me that he is then free to besmirch the record of Canadian troops without apparently having to prove it.

So what is the truth?  Were Jones' recollections just wild talk to sell books or impress people down at the Legion?  Were killings like Jones saw occasional occurences that were not condoned (something I consider most likely) ?  Did Canadian battalion, brigade and division commanders give unwritten orders to exterminate prisoners on a regular basis and/or turn a blind eye to illegal killings?

Given the importance placed on prisoners for intelligence purposes, I find the latter hard to swallow, never mind the moral and professional implications.

Can anyone point me to any books or articles on this phenomenon?  Or other recorded instances of such killings?

Then there is the case of civilian crimes - like the US troops who opened fire at that culvert early in the Korean War. I suspect Canadians are legitimately free and clear in this regard, but stand to be enlightened.  Graves reported in the SAR history that one single case of rape in Holland received an inordinate amount of attention (inlcuding a ceremonial drumming out of two troopers by the RSM in full view of the Regiment, slicing regimental insignia off their battle dress with a razor blade) even though the case was not open and shut (the men claimed the sex was consensual until the woman's husband arrived home).  Find it hard to believe that Canadians would have had cause to kill civilians in France - Italy would have been another story but have never read of anything occurring there, either.  I guess the only documented case we have in the 20th Century is Somalia, which was an isolated incident despite the media's attention paid to other elements of the CAR which are probably best left not discussed here in any event.

Anyone else done any research into this or know where I could go for more info?  I'd as soon not battle buddy's innuendo with more of my own.


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## Old Sweat (13 Mar 2006)

This is one of those things that can be debated till the cows come home. Undoubtedly one can find statements that prisoners were killed by Canadian troops in both wars. However most are second hand at best. If one is looking for a perspective, read Major General Chris Vokes' perspective when he commuted the death sentence awareded to SS-Brigadefuhrer Kurt Meyer to life imprisonment. I cannot recall reading any primary source that documents the killing of prisoners by Canadian troops. However, I am sure it happened on occasion, but it was not systemic.

If I can go on a tangent, there was a supposed incident of 12 Boer prisoners being lynched by C Squadron, Lord Strathcona's Horse on 15 August 1900. The story flew around the South African Field Force and was subsequently cited by Breaker Morant in his defence at his court martial. About ten years, and several computers, ago I wrote the 
South African Military History Society as well as a number of military museums in that country in an effort to confirm or deny the incident. No one had ever heard of it. Furthermore, the Boer casualty records were both complete and accurate. and the Boers did not record either any deaths in the area on that day or murders of prisoners at any time that could be attributable to Canadian troops. In short, the old army rumour mill did its thing once again.


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Mar 2006)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> This is one of those things that can be debated till the cows come home. Undoubtedly one can find statements that prisoners were killed by Canadian troops in both wars. However most are second hand at best. If one is looking for a perspective, read Major General Chris Vokes' perspective when he commuted the death sentence awareded to SS-Brigadefuhrer Kurt Meyer to life imprisonment. I cannot recall reading any primary source that documents the killing of prisoners by Canadian troops. However, I am sure it happened on occasion, but it was not systemic.
> 
> If I can go on a tangent, there was a supposed incident of 12 Boer prisoners being lynched by C Squadron, Lord Strathcona's Horse on 15 August 1900. The story flew around the South African Field Force and was subsequently cited by Breaker Morant in his defence at his court martial. About ten years, and several computers, ago I wrote the
> South African Military History Society as well as a number of military museums in that country in an effort to confirm or deny the incident. No one had ever heard of it. Furthermore, the Boer casualty records were both complete and accurate. and the Boers did not record either any deaths in the area on that day or murders of prisoners at any time that could be attributable to Canadian troops. In short, the old army rumour mill did its thing once again.



I suggested to buddy that if he wanted to prove Canadians murdered prisoners, he should have a look at personnel records - as you did with the Boers.  Unfortunately German records are incomplete and their "missing" soldiers may have remained so had anything untoward happened to them.  But I think your latter anecdote says a lot of different valuable things, so thanks.  Vokes was ... invoked ... by buddy also, though I haven't read his statements.  I should pull out my book on Meyer's trial again and have another look, I guess.  Vokes was recognized as something of a blowhard though - a tough soldier, don't get me wrong, but not a scholar or someone I'd associated with strong moral principles, so it wouldn't suprise me either to hear he made offhand comments not necessarily accurate.  He tried very hard I think to give off the man's man image so I have a hard time knowing how much weight to put on anything he might have said on the matter.


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## Patrolman (13 Mar 2006)

I have talked to a former veteran (now deceased) who told of prisoners being killed on more than one occasion. He said in his unit which I will not mention ,there was an individual who whenever on guard duty would kill the prisoners. Let them run then shoot them kind of thing. Second hand account on my part,first on his. He was a very religious guy who wouldn't lie about this type of thing. Maybe the last part doesn't hold much weight for some but, I believe his story.


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Mar 2006)

Patrolman said:
			
		

> I have talked to a former veteran (now deceased) who told of prisoners being killed on more than one occasion. He said in his unit which I will not mention ,there was an individual who whenever on guard duty would kill the prisoners. Let them run then shoot them kind of thing. Second hand account on my part,first on his. He was a very religious guy who wouldn't lie about this type of thing. Maybe the last part doesn't hold much weight for some but, I believe his story.



Without a unit name, why bother telling the story.

I just posted again on the other forum.  Incidentally what is "guard duty"?  If you mean guarding prisoners, how often was this done in an infantry unit - wouldn't PWs be assembled in a collection point and quickly moved back to a battalion or brigade PW cage?

This is what I got to thinking - the system is set up to prevent this kind of thing.  The CSM and RSM are responsible for prisoners.  They don't take part in the fighting, they administer the company or battalion.  It is their duty to ensure that prisoners don't get shot.  They're also warrant officers, not a job you just step into without any experience, most of the time anyway.

So if your friend knew of a guard that shot prisoners whenever he felt like it, whatever happened to his sergeant major?  I have a hard time believing stories like that since they tend to grow in the telling.  I can understand a PW being shot here and there on the way back to a PW collection point.  Hell, I could even understand a CSM in extreme circumstances doing the shooting himself.  But wasn't the system set up to prevent that, by making PWs a very specific responsibility of individuals - and senior individuals at that?  Once in the hands of the sergeant major, I have a hard time believing it would be very easy to do away with anyone.


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## parkie (16 Mar 2006)

I  have been following this for a couple of days trying to decide if this needs my response or not.I feel I should say something in defence of my brothers in arms since many aren't here to speak for themselves any longer. First-never in my whole tour in Italy did  I ever hear An officer or anyone in a command position say it was okay to shoot prisoners. In ortona we were sniped,ambushed,shot from balcony's,booby trapped you name it. it was like hell on earth but still prisoners were taken although the 1st paratroop division was not big on surrendering.Ask to define prisoner-Do we define prisoner who someone after being ordered in German to drop his arms a number of times,shoots the man to the left of you and the man to the right then drops his weapon.Has you say, I would consider this the heat of battle not a captured pow. They could fill hundreds of libraries with books written by men with first hand knowledge of what went on overseas you Will probably find that not many of them were packing a gun.but after the war many were looking for something written that gave them a feeling of retribution having either lost loved one's or has the nation suffering has a whole in the war effort.Mr Jones's report of the soldier marching off german soldiers then returning  with a thompson slung over his shoulder,it's funny  this is mentioned because I can remember the same story myself in Italy,one story had him shooting fifty men with a thompson another was about two dozen this story circulated for sometime with different numbers of prisoners being shot each time it was told.i myself used a thompson and you couldn't shoot fifty men with it even if they were all standing in one pail.Italked with men while we drove up through Italy on different occasions that said they shot men indifferent situations pretty well just for something to do.but I know for absolute certainty that they were lying because you know the men who are in the action with you and the one's just trying to fit in or be one of the boy's in the, I killed a man club, The men doing the fighting and having to kill most don't gloat or brag about killing another man and those that have it changes you forever most turn Into walking shells of men,if you serve or have served you know yourself the traditions of the Canadian army and the grounds on which it was founded we answered a call from a free and democratic society not a fascist oppressive one,if  things were done that some might deem not in the proper code of conduct for the most part they  would probably have been out of retaliation for what had been done to us.I know tempers were pretty hot after word of the shootings in France
but our officers never told us to kill prisoners ever to hear someone say that the Canadians condonned murders of prisoners is someone's pipe dream.I hope this helps in what your looking for


                                                                                                                     Ac parkie  
                                                                                    Canadian 1st division
                                                                                   39-45


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## 54/102 CEF (16 Mar 2006)

Its well known in WW1

Look for the 4th Div pep talks before 8 Aug Operation Llandovery Castle - named after the Hospital SHip that was sunk and survivors machine gunned.

read "50th Bn in No Man`s Land" or "Only This" - when the guy throws his hands up - it may not be possible to accept his offer to quit.

Many after action reports about prisoners capotured on patrols getting too rambunctious so they were dealt with.

At the same time there are many more that show the kindness soldiers will show each other.

And that`s why we remember - isn`t it?


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## Michael Dorosh (16 Mar 2006)

Thanks for the reply, parkie - very valuable stuff.


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## reccecrewman (22 Mar 2006)

I'm rather surprised this hasn't been mentioned before.  I've been following this thread since it opened, and one particular incident jumped into my head I remember reading about a few years back. 

On 13 July 1943, men of the PPCLI captured 2 Italian men wearing civvies and carrying rifles.  Brigadier (at the time) Vokes later recorded this event in his memoirs: "Lindsay (CO of the PPCLI) got on the blower, 'We got sniped at' he reported to me....... 'and we caught three of them, what will I do with them?'"  Apparently believing (or knowing) that the men were in civilian clothes and thus subject to immediate execution by Geneva Convention rules, Vokes decided the men ought to be shot.  But since he and Lindsay were conversing over the radio in the clear, Vokes did not want to order Lindsay to outright shoot the prisoners. Vokes replied to Lindsay's question "Use your head" Lindsay wouldn't take the bait "What will I do with them?" he asked again.  Again, Vokes told him "Use your bloody head!"  After a minute or two of futile conversation, Vokes ordered the men brought up to Brigade HQ.  Just after they arrived, Simonds came up.  By Vokes' account, he explained that he wanted the men shot, Simonds agreed, then Simonds changed his mind and the Italians were given a good beating instead.

Despite Vokes' account, there is substantial evidence that Lindsay did in fact order the execution.  This shooting was the central event of Colin McDougall's 1958 novel _EXECUTION_.  Other Patricia's who were there can confirm McDougall's version of event's.  According to Maj. Clark;

"The Italians were obviously deserters because they had army boots on.  They were carrying a suitcase with all their army identification in it.  They were very pleasant little fellows and the lads used them as flunkeys.......... Brigade Headquarters heard about these two men and they got on the blower and said they had to be executed.  The CO objected....... but anyways the order had to be carried out, much to my regret."

Sydney McKay remembered: "Colonel Lindsay at the time sentenced them to death and was going to have them shot in the town square of Modica to set an example.  He chose not to, and had them taken out to a field, had them dig their own graves and they were shot"

Given the conflicting accounts of this incident, no one can say for sure whether or not Vokes had the men executed, and if he did, whether the that execution was either legal or moral.

The bulk of this information is directly from the book "THE PATRICIA'S - THE PROUD HISTORY OF A FIGHTING REGIMENT" by David J. Bercuson.  It brings to light that there is recorded evidence that some things may have happened, but there are many different and distorted accounts by numerous Patrica's who were there.


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## parkie (22 Mar 2006)

This brings back a lot of memories for me,a lot of the men in the regiment had little or no use for the Italian army.many felt they were just sitting on the fence to go with who ever showed the most muscle you know.If we look at how things went at that time,Hitler invaded France around the beginning of June and while we were still on our heels from dunkirk, they declare war,sort of like, well we better jump in bed with these guys, things don't look to good for the British right now. so ya, that's what we'll do.shooting of a Italian.if you dress in plain clothes and carry a gun, around what the hell do you need the gun for,you know so sure your just looking for it.sniping  ,wouldn't put it past them a bit.you know somebody that jumps sides so easy,how can you trust them.I have no doubt it very well could have happened.we wouldn't consider them prisoner's of war.I think your bang on with that one.In my diary ( a soldiers story I have notes that will go into it when we get to that part)

                                                                                                           A C (parkie)
                                                        Princess Patricia's Canadian Light infantry


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## parkie (23 Mar 2006)

Had to think on this one,boy,you guys are going to get your 85 years worth out of this old noggin'.I don't want to look to one sided on this,
If you take a prisoner,He is generally considered bound to the same rules you have,in your Head?Am I right? name,rank,number,nothing more.And get back to the friendly's if you can.your rules you have ,get that name and rank for intelligence purposes,detain.
 We enter into an agreement.I'm your captor.your my prisoner,I'm going to try and keep you from escaping,your going to try and escape.
 I have already risked my neck to capture you,when you decide to fight back we will then be back at war with one another.I don't know maybe to much wwII in my head.
 Voke's gave us speech in Italy.He was certainly not a timid commander.Perhap's he knew more of the enemy them we did,At the time,we thought hard word's,week's later.word's at least to think about.


                                                                                                     A C (parkie)
                                                              Princess Patricia's Canadian Light infantry


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## reccecrewman (23 Mar 2006)

Brigadier Vokes was certainly a commander with a fire burning within.  He was by no means perfect, he had his follies, but all in all, he was a good Brigade Commander.  It certainly would be interesting to know the absolute truth behind this episode, but for the most part, these secrets are lying with the men who the truth is known only to.


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## j moore (9 May 2006)

I too, heard an anecdotal third-party report of a shooting of German prisoners in Normandy just after the Juno landings. This report featured the traditional "i gave them a cigarette and...etc". The story was communicated twenty years after the war by a factory hand who alleged that as a wartime soldier, he had been instructed by his sergeant to commit this act, as prisoner escorts were not possible.  We will never know if this, or similar tales are factual, however I would issue a note of caution in your research.

You have referenced Barry Broadfoot as a source of some allegations of widespread Canadian Army atrocities.  Mr. Broadfoot is a writer who possesses a strongly-held socialist perspective and cannot be considered in any way objective. He is certainly entitled to his opinions and some of the material he reports in his works may be in fact historically accurate. However he relies primarily on the verbal reminiscences of individuals which are seldom documented, and which chracteristically support his perspective of a society dominated by class struggle between the universally benign and oppressed working classes and the inherently corrupt and incompetent capitalists and their bourgeois lackeys.   

In his view, the military is therefore nothing less than a crypto-facist tool of capitalist domination, and those that served in its ranks the unwitting tools of a corrupt political system. His writings lack the credibility of the objective historical researcher and serve primarily as a means of advancing his own political agenda (that of the Canadian left) through his use of a polemical approach. He would likely admit to this in private conversation if you bought him a beer or two.

 Conservative U.S. Presidential candidate (1964) Barry Goldwater once said "Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice".  The left today uses the deconstructionist historical model to re-write history to advance its agenda. Both tactics are unsound and unnacceptable.  What happens in the heat of action or its immediate aftermath is seldom systemic unlike the planned killings of paramilitary death squads, and I don't believe that the Canadian military has ever had any of those! War is an unnatural state and despite our pretence that it is governed by "rules" men and women will behave as they will in response to a broad range of causative factors. Which means that sometimes the innocent will be killed. That fact hardly translates into systemic and rampant evil.


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## Centurian1985 (9 May 2006)

In the material I have read over the past 20 years, I have never read of a single documented case of a Canadian soldier having committed a war crime against an enemy soldier or members of a population. 

Three exceptions:
Internment of Japanese during WW2 (viewed as a national/political crime rather than an individual)
Investigation of an incident in Bosnia involving hospital inmates (of which I did not hear whether they were found guilt or innocent) 
Incident in Somalia where soldiers acted individualy (and were prosecuted).   

Yes, there have been references to incidents having been done by Canadian soldiers.  Such incidents refer to a World War 2 time frame and are not highly publicised.  They're certainly not easy to find documented incidents via the internet (I tried and found nothing).  Of all the references in books and publications that I can recall over the years having read, allegations have been made and were extremely situational, but had no supporting documentation.  These incidents involved one or several of the following factors:
A member acting on their own initiative without approval of higher command and in contravention of standing orders.
Acts committed against civilians that would normally be considered criminal acts (i.e. theft, assault, etc.) but became war crimes because they were committed by soldiers against a civilian.
The prisoner had attempted to escape after surrenduring.
The prisoner had attacked a soldier or attempted to overpower a soldier after surrenduring.
The soldiers involved were in a highly unstable emotional state due to the recent death of one or more close comrades/friends and refused to let the enemy surrender.
The soldiers were driven to a highly unstabel emotional state by the acts of an enemy that was using a particularily heinious act or weapon, specifically having used flamethrowers, sniper attacks, killing civilians, or other inhumane attacks.   

These allegations have been made, but I dont know if any of them were true as no one had stood forward from that era to say 'that is true".  Based on what we know of war, it is certainly possible that these events could have happened - we all have a breaking point at which we might say "this person deserves to die for what they did" - but this does not mean it is part of an established policy or higher command order (i.e. like the actions of Nazi SS units or Russian KGB units) and it is completely unjustified for people to insinuate that we such acts have been committed and left unpunished based on rumour, inuendo, insinuation, misinformation, or propoganda.


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## 3rd Horseman (12 May 2006)

Michael D,

     Some good locations for accurate info is the law library at the local JAG office. I spent some time(many hours) during one of my soldiers trials reading the law cases for the military tribunals of WW2 and Korea, very interesting reading. In particular the crimes against the civilians and prisoners that were not charged as war crimes but as breaches of the code such as rape, shootings and other violence.

    The other good source is the transcripts of Volks and the trial of Kurt Myer in it it appears clear that Canadians are guilty of prisoner deaths.

  Lastly the other good source is the Freiburg University in Germany ,Histroy department. I did a battlefield study of Italy and we were lucky to have a scholar of the germany actions with us. He gave a detailed and very accurate brief of the German perspective of the battles in Italy. It was a real eye opener for me and changed my complete view of the Italian battles that I had heard for years from western scholars. In those details you will find I suspect very good details of the info you are seeking. The details of Ortona are quiet revealing.

Happy hunting


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## FormerHorseGuard (12 May 2006)

i first joined a highland unit that was a D Day dodger, and one year I was doing parade duty at a local legion for Nov. 11 . Over a beer  a former soldier told me a story about how the medics from my unit were being used as target practice by the German snipers. He was not from my unit, he was from another unit.  He said after the battle and the snipers were lined up and shot, because that was what the Germans were doing to Canadian troops captured.  
I tend to believe the man as I heard the same story  during the history lesson on the unit during basic training. I do not like to think that Canadian went running around machine gunning POWs everyday, but I am sure it happened , sometimes because of facts that are never quite clear, or as pay back or because the soldiers did not want to deal with or had time to deal with pows. I recall Pows being tied up on Dieppe raids with wire and Canadians being tied up everyday with wire in the Pow  camps after the raid as pay back from the Germans.

I read the book about General Myers while on my call out to LFCA HQ years a go, i found it in the office and I decided to read it. ( i read a lot of Military history books about Canadians and that was my  first book I read about the view from the other side. interesting read and very educational I thought at the time. 


War crimes aside i have always thought there were different rules during and after wars and battles. One set of rules for the losers and one set for the winners.


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## Genetk44 (12 May 2006)

I don't understand what all the angst is about.......nasty stuff happens everyday, more so dureing war and even more so dureing and just after battle. Seems to me that common sense, if nothing else, dictates that Canadian soldiers probably did things, that we,in hind-sight, might call a war crime or an illegal act. Personally I think our guys probably  did, on occasion shoot prisoners, especially ones from the Hitler Jugend Division dureing and after the Normandy battles...but I don't think it was on the wholesale scale or accepted practise as much as it  supposedly was on the Eastern Front. I know that if I was a soldier and was present at the liberation of a place like Buchenwald  I probably would have shot some of the guards if they had surrendered to me,  and not lost a bit of sleep about it.
just my 2 cents worth of a bit of a rant ;D
Gene


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## Michael Dorosh (12 May 2006)

Genetk44 said:
			
		

> I know that if I was a soldier and was present at the liberation of a place like Buchenwald  I probably would have shot some of the guards if they had surrendered to me,  and not lost a bit of sleep about it.



And had I been your commanding officer, I would have seen you prosecuted for murder and punished according to the laws that we live by.  Seems to me the whole point of the war was that we objected to the way the Nazis were treating people - arrest without warrant, trial without jury, judgement without law.  Sounds like you would have fit right in.


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## 2 Cdo (13 May 2006)

> And had I been your commanding officer, I would have seen you prosecuted for murder and punished according to the laws that we live by.  Seems to me the whole point of the war was that we objected to the way the Nazis were treating people - arrest without warrant, trial without jury, judgement without law.  Sounds like you would have fit right in.



For someone who wasn't there you have all answers.  : The truth is, without the comfort of sitting behind your computer and 60+ years of hindsight, you MIGHT have acted exactly like Genetk44 stated. I know I probably would!

Your moral sermonizing is starting to get old. It seems that every thread is an invite to spout "The Michael Dorosh Code of Conduct" claiming some higher moral ground. 

As a side note, if you were my CO, with your morally superiour attitude, I think I would ask for a transfer, posting anywhere to be free of your self-righteousness!


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## Jacktheknife (13 May 2006)

hello all
been watching this subject for quite a while,This is a real hard subject for me,Since most of the lads that the SS executed ,I knew them.We all know from the stories after the war,about how bad the germans were treated by us,
I think the easiest way to put a good perspective on this without causing anybody a lot of grief,Is by looking at who we were,and look at who we were against,We were for the most part just farm boy's and young men who had no notion of trying to exterminate everybody that we came across or put them under our boot,We went to set things right with those that tried this.I find it quite absurd that a people who did such terrible things to others,can have the nerve and total blind Ignorance to complain ,because they didn't get treated right.I know men who had to go in and clean up the death camps,it totally ruined their lives,they will never be the same.Even the panzer divisions were extremely fanatical.I find it funny they mention Ortona has a subject of Canadian war crimes.After some of the crap they pulled in Italy,Ask An Italian campaign veteran what went on.You might or might not get an answer,depending on how many nightmares the subject might cause.You will find that for a lot of vet's,it wasn't the death that get's to you so much,in most instances it's the manner of it.


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## Hot Lips (13 May 2006)

Well put Jacktheknife...my grandfather would have echoed similar words.

HL


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## Jacktheknife (13 May 2006)

Yes,hot lips 
I think a lot of grandfathers out there would say the same or similair,we started out just a bunch of kids,whatever we became,they made us into that.Soldiers.killers.murderers.whatever the nazis want to call some of us,well,we're a product of your evil.I often think of malmedy.according to many nazi soldiers,even panzer soldiers.it never happened.It just didn't,How in the world can all those american soldiers lying side by side in the snow executed,not have happened,We must have been seeing things,I guess.


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## TCBF (13 May 2006)

"It was a real eye opener for me and changed my complete view of the Italian battles that I had heard for years from western scholars. In those details you will find I suspect very good details of the info you are seeking. The details of Ortona are quiet revealing."  

- I have a Freiburg University Library Card from my days in Lahr, but:  I ain't going back anytime soon.  If you have the time, kindly start a new thread with any points you found interesting.

Tom


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## blacktriangle (13 May 2006)

We had a presentation at school not long ago from a war veteran, who mentioned that certain people in his unit from post d-day would kill prisioners, but usually only if they had really pissed off the canadians. For instance, they once lost a couple leadership types to a machine gun nest. They captured the machine gun nest, and shot the prisioners they took there. Who knows, but war is war as he said.


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## Infanteer (13 May 2006)

Enough with the personal mud-slinging - go to the politics forum if you want to do it.  The History forum tends to be calm and civilized, so lets keep it that way.


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## Michael Dorosh (14 May 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> For someone who wasn't there you have all answers.  : The truth is, without the comfort of sitting behind your computer and 60+ years of hindsight, you MIGHT have acted exactly like Genetk44 stated. I know I probably would!
> 
> Your moral sermonizing is starting to get old. It seems that every thread is an invite to spout "The Michael Dorosh Code of Conduct" claiming some higher moral ground.
> 
> As a side note, if you were my CO, with your morally superiour attitude, I think I would ask for a transfer, posting anywhere to be free of your self-righteousness!



Personal attacks aside, it's always mystified me to read the comments on here by those who feel we are too soft on criminals, insist they take responsibility for their crimes, defend the death penalty for capital cases - but when it comes to a soldier commiting crimes, there are those who figure it is okay to just shrug and put it down to stress - or worse, just being able to get away with it. 

Anyway, the whole point was to discuss the problems of documentation and corroboration and I've gotten a handful of good answers. Thanks to those who went the extra mile.


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## 2 Cdo (14 May 2006)

Michael, you missed the point completely! 


> Personal attacks aside, it's always mystified me to read the comments on here by those who feel we are too soft on criminals, insist they take responsibility for their crimes, defend the death penalty for capital cases - but when it comes to a soldier committing crimes, there are those who figure it is okay to just shrug and put it down to stress - or worse, just being able to get away with it.



In regards to your complete and total leap of logic, please find where I said it was okay to commit these acts! Without seeing, hearing, smelling all that was a Nazi Concentration camp, one cannot say with 100% clarity how one would act! You, in fact, might have become overwhelmed with emotion and reacted in such a manner. Well, maybe not you, with your moral clarity and feeling of superiority of us lesser human beings! :


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## Franko (14 May 2006)

Alrighty......24 hour cooling period.

LOCKED.


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## Franko (15 May 2006)

Well that's long enough and now it's open for buisness.

Keep it civil gents.

Regards


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## Michael Dorosh (15 May 2006)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Michael, you missed the point completely!
> In regards to your complete and total leap of logic, please find where I said it was okay to commit these acts! Without seeing, hearing, smelling all that was a Nazi Concentration camp, one cannot say with 100% clarity how one would act! You, in fact, might have become overwhelmed with emotion and reacted in such a manner. Well, maybe not you, with your moral clarity and feeling of superiority of us lesser human beings! :



And if I did act in such a manner, I would expect to face trial. If the court felt that my experiences were mitigating factors, so much the better for me, eh.  Hopefully the court would take it into consideration, but I wouldn't expect to get off scot free.

Is there any reason I should?

Anyway, what is the suggestion here?  Should shooting and torture of prisoners be made legal, or would simple decriminalization suffice to satisfy those who feel trials for said conduct are unfair?


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## carcajou (20 May 2006)

I have had personal conversations with a member of the Canadian forces who was in Normandy. Here are a few of the stories that he told me:

"When you were on recce you would just lay there and watch. Sometimes you'd just watch for hours. Say you were watching a house. Whenever you saw someone come out of that house you'd look for certain things. Did he have his hat tilted a certain way? Was there something different about him? All so that you wouldn't count him twice. After you were fairly sure that you knew how many there were you'd throw a couple of grenades through the windows but you never pulled the pins. While they were scurrying about trying to avoid the grenades that were rolling around inside we'd just kick the door in and open up on them. Just house cleaning."

Now that is an ambush...not really even close to 'questionable' handling of prisoners but it is difficult to draw the line and everyone interprets things differently. 

While discussing the 'executions' at the Abbey and the surrounding area he said "We came upon some of our boys hands tied behind their backs and shot in the head. The Gerries paid for that boy! Did they ever pay for that!" 

Now you may think that he meant that they fought extra hard for having seen what they saw but I know what he meant...he meant that they killed any German soldier that they got their hands on.

In another discussion he told me "We were on some farm land and a sniper was taking our boys down one at a time. The commanding officer ordered that a small squad go out and find the sniper. They returned but couldn't find anyone. The commanding officer pointed to a haystack and said 'fire an incendiary bomb into that haystack'. When the bomb was fired into the haystack a French girl came running out. She was 19 and had been having an affair with a German soldier so she was hiding in the hay with a rifle shooting the Germans' enemies. The commanding officer said 'strip her and search her clothing for maps'. None were found. He said 'cut her throat, hang her up and put a sign around her neck saying this is what will happen to anyone who helps the Germans'. It was an order. Nineteen."

Once again...it is open to interpretation slightly because he never stated that he cut her throat but the statement about "it was an order" definitely left me no doubt that her throat was cut by himself or one in his group.


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## pbi (1 Jun 2006)

> I recall Pows being tied up on Dieppe raids with wire and Canadians being tied up everyday with wire in the Pow  camps after the raid as pay back from the Germans



Really? Are you sure that the German didn't actually capture a copy of the JUBILEE Op Order that gave directions to tie up German PWs? I certainly stand to be corrected, but I didnt know we actually wired up any PWs at Dieppe.

Cheers


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## Old Sweat (1 Jun 2006)

PBI,

I believe you are correct in that the tying of Canadian prisoners in PW camps was in reaction to the capture of an operation order that referred to shackling German captives. If I recall correctly, the order was taken ashore despite orders to the contrary by 6 Brigade Headquarters. A member of the headquarters staff attempted unsuccessfully to destroy it before being forced to surrender.


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Jun 2006)

Brigadier Southam was the culprit, I think. And Canadian POWs were then handcuffed (not tied) in German Stalags. The Canadians found they could take the handcuffs off with the keys from cans of condensed milk and meat they got in Red Cross parcels; after a while the handcuffing was a ceremonial thing only for 15 minutes a day IIRC.

Robertson discusses it in depth in The Shame and the Glory. And the KOCR have a life size diorama in their regimental museum showing the handcuffs on Canadianprisoners.


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## Old Sweat (1 Jun 2006)

Michael,

You are absolutely correct. I just looked it up in the Shame and the Glory and on page 380 we find, 'After a swift glace at the enemy on the sea wall, Southam bent down quickly in an attempt to bury his precious package under the pebbles." [end of statement by an eyewitness] His action had not escaped a German officer scanning the beach. In copy 37 of the military plan was the fateful clause: "Where ever possbile, prisoners' hands are to be tied. . . ."'


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Jun 2006)

I also seem to recall the document was like a phone book in size and went into ridiculous amounts of detail...so much for KISS.


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## pbi (7 Jun 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I also seem to recall the document was like a phone book in size and went into ridiculous amounts of detail...so much for KISS.



Ahh, yes. And thus was founded another fine Canadian miltary tradition: the love of large chunks of paper.

Cheers


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## Old Sweat (7 Jun 2006)

pbi

I have found references to the Canadian army's love affair with paper in a Boer War book, From Quebec to Pretoria with the Royal Canadian Regiment. Much of the credit/blame lies with Otter, whose guide was full of the minutiae of petty administration but woefully short of any discussion of matters tactical.


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## pbi (7 Jun 2006)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> pbi
> 
> I have found references to the Canadian army's love affair with paper in a Boer War book, From Quebec to Pretoria with the Royal Canadian Regiment. Much of the credit/blame lies with Otter, whose guide was full of the minutiae of petty administration but woefully short of any discussion of matters tactical.



Don't get me going....(as I look around our "paperless" office).

Cheers


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