# A Unique Situation, Course Failure, Removal from ROTP



## Ed Art (31 Jan 2010)

Good Evening,

I have spent the last several months researching this and have talked to everyone that could help me, now Ive turned to these forums.

I was enrolled under the ROTP in 2007.  I have completed two years subsidized education along with my BMOQ qualification.  Last summer, I failed the final exercise on CAP, I attribute this to personal reasons, ie. the death of a parent, etc.  I was removed from subsidized education and given the option of release, NCM reversion, or remaining as an OCdt and serving my time.  I am currently working at an ASU since the course as on OCdt.
I have continued taking school full time, distance education.  I will have a general BA degree at the end of August.  My question is this, will I be eligible for a commision.  From what I have researched what is required for a commision is the completion of BMOQ and a university degree, soon I will have both.  

In my current situation, I no longer have a MOC, I am working as "untrained".  Will I automatically receive my commision once I receive my degree or will a be stuck working as an officer cadet until my time expires.

Thank you for any insight.

E.S.


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## Zoomie (31 Jan 2010)

Hi Ed,

There are a few gaps in your story.  You say you failed the final field ex of CAP - this does not immediately mean that you are kicked out of the ROTP program, what happened next?  Did you inform the PRB committee about your death in the family?

To answer your question - once you have a degree and successful completion of BMOQ, you have met the requirements for a Commission in CF.  However, if your status in the CF is in doubt, you may not be eligible for any sort of advancement.

Fill in the gaps and we can help.  Where do you want to go from here?  Did you want to leave the CF?  What did your PSO counsel you to do?


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## Ed Art (1 Feb 2010)

A Career review was initiated, I was successful until the final field portion, patrolling.  The Career Review resulted in removal from the ROTP program.  My PL Commander stated the death shouldn`t have been an issue because it happened a few months prior, Im serious he said that.  Other factors also affected me mentally, families finances, etc.

I was training to be an artillery officer, I was doing well im school.  The PSO wanted  to make me a vehicle technician.  I did not want to do this, thus this is why Im doing OJT until further notice.  Essentially my failure of CAP resulted in the removal from the ROTP through a Career Review.  I have been working in Logistics since that course.  My goal is to become a commisioned officer, even if it isn`t through the original route I had hoped.

I have submitted a grievance regarding the issue but have not received a response as of yet.


			
				Zoomie said:
			
		

> Hi Ed,
> 
> There are a few gaps in your story.  You say you failed the final field ex of CAP - this does not immediately mean that you are kicked out of the ROTP program, what happened next?  Did you inform the PRB committee about your death in the family?
> 
> ...


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## captloadie (1 Feb 2010)

I had a good friend who encountered the same situation as you did. He actually failed Phase III armour, not CAP, and had completed three years. He was allowed to release after about six months to continue his education elsewhere, and last I heard is happy on civvy street. He wasn't given an option to change trades, because in the opinion of the CRB, he did  not have the leadership skills required to succeed as an officer in the CF, or something to this effect. It was basically a kiss of death, and no PSO was going to recommend him another Officer trade.

Hopefully your CRB didn't make the same recommendations. IMHO, you might have been better off to release, finish your education, and then re-enrole DEO. I'm not sure there is a commissioning plan that will let you go from OCDT to 2Lt, unless there is some kind exception to the DEO plan.


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## Ed Art (1 Feb 2010)

Thanks for your input,

Unfortunately that is pretty much exactly what was said.  The phrase, "not holding the qualities of an officer" was mentioned.  I had hoped to be transfered to another officer trade.  Right now where it's standing I plan on speaking to the PSO a few months down the line.  If I can't transfer to another officer trade I would like to check out the options to become an MP, NCM.  Essentially every month I work reduces my debt.  I agree though it would be best to release once I learn these options.  Im confident I should be aable to find somesort of job that pays more than 18,000 per year when I receive my bachelors degree.



			
				captloadie said:
			
		

> I had a good friend who encountered the same situation as you did. He actually failed Phase III armour, not CAP, and had completed three years. He was allowed to release after about six months to continue his education elsewhere, and last I heard is happy on civvy street. He wasn't given an option to change trades, because in the opinion of the CRB, he did  not have the leadership skills required to succeed as an officer in the CF, or something to this effect. It was basically a kiss of death, and no PSO was going to recommend him another Officer trade.
> 
> Hopefully your CRB didn't make the same recommendations. IMHO, you might have been better off to release, finish your education, and then re-enrole DEO. I'm not sure there is a commissioning plan that will let you go from OCDT to 2Lt, unless there is some kind exception to the DEO plan.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Feb 2010)

Ed Art said:
			
		

> Thanks for your input,
> 
> Unfortunately that is pretty much exactly what was said.  The phrase, "not holding the qualities of an officer" was mentioned.  I had hoped to be transfered to another officer trade.  Right now where it's standing I plan on speaking to the PSO a few months down the line.  If I can't transfer to another officer trade I would like to check out the options to become an MP, NCM.  Essentially every month I work reduces my debt.  I agree though it would be best to release once I learn these options.  Im confident I should be aable to find somesort of job that pays more than 18,000 per year when I receive my bachelors degree.



Call me crazy, but shouldn't the CF decide that someone already has 'Officer like qualities' before they spend a fortune on them through the ROTP program? I assume that you passed some kind of test like that early on in the process?


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## Fide et Fortitudine (1 Feb 2010)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Call me crazy, but shouldn't the CF decide that someone already has 'Officer like qualities' before they spend a fortune on them through the ROTP program? I assume that you passed some kind of test like that early on in the process?



Yes, it's the same process performed for an NCM, you do your aptitude test, medical, fitness test, interview, and then you write an intent paper on why you want to be in ROTP etc... But hopefully your thinking the same as me, there are some unsuitable who possess no real leadership qualities that fall through the cracks. How can anyone be judged to contain any leadership abilities when they are evaluated only on what they say to the PSO? Sure being competent in expressing oneself verbally and having confidence is important, but that isn't the whole picture. You put the picture together and you see that a whole lot of unsuitable people slip into the system... not that all are bad, but there is the same proportion of bags that slip through.

Just my 2 cents,

MPF


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## Zoomie (1 Feb 2010)

Something smells...  I am intimately involved in MOC training where I work.   There are specific CF rules in place that outline the conduct of what is to happen when a candidate meets course fail criteria.  The first such step is a Progress Review Board - not a Career Review Board.  Also - it doesn't really matter what your platoon commander thinks about the death in your family - the board's chairman is an independent entity that is not biased by having worked with you in the past.  Was this the only PO that you failed on CAP?  Was recourse mentioned?  Did they send you to talk to a CF counselor?  If any of these steps were missed in any way - you have cause for redress.

That being said, if you have already given up on the idea of ROTP and your career as an Artillery Officer - sobeit.


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## PanaEng (1 Feb 2010)

I know of at least 2 cases of pers that failed BOTC or ph II (BOMQ or CAP), transfered to NCM and after a few years - usually after doing the JLC or PLQ and getting promoted to Cpl, MCpl or higher - go CFR or UTPNCM.
The key was that they had to prove that they had leadership capabilities, not just potential.

cheers,
Frank


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## Ed Art (2 Feb 2010)

Sorry for not being clear.  A PRB was initiated right after the failure.  It was "recommended" that I be removed from further officer training and thus removed from subsidized education.  I was unsuccessful in the first attempt for 2 other PO's, but I passed them on the second try.  Recourse was never brought up during the PRB.  After the PRB, when I returned to London I received an email outlining the Career Review Boards decision.  This was really weired because it took place just days after my PRB and I was never given the option to give my 2 cents on the issue.  I was never sent to a counsellor, however when I returned I took the initiative and sought out the PSO myself.  I submitted a redress back in October.  I have yet to get back word back because they redress has boucnhed from Gagetown, to Borden, and now it is at the training academy in Kingston (this was due to the fact Gagetown and Borden weren't able to act as the initial authority).  
The whole thing is extremly frustrating and confusing, I struggled on one course, CAP and everything I have been working towards has ended.  I am essentially in limbo still awaiting whether my redress will be granted or denied.  
I am having difficulty grasping the CF standards on training.  This course was my only shortfall and BMOQ and academics up to that point was going well.  I know two other OCdt's fairly well from my old school.  One has had two attempts at BMOQ and still has not been successful.  She was told that if she fails again, she will not be allowed to enter her final year of subsidy until she completes the course. :S  Another also had a death in the family, he failed several courses, literally an entire semester of school.  They are both still in the ROTP.  

*** I also have another question which, through researching and questioning do not have a clear answer.  If my redress is denied I intend to release and apply for DEO. (I have been taking courses online, full time while working at an ASU).  I will have a 3 year degree by the end of April.  I owe roughly 36,000 dollars for two years of school and was told if I released I would have to pay it back.  As an OCdt now I owe 36 months, in rank, in order to leave with no financial obligation.  I intend to be released at the end of August, at which time I will have served 38 months in the regular force, 16 months of that thus being subsidized education.  The other 22 months I have been employed either at an ASU or on course.  When you leave the military and have not yet completed your obligatory service are you required to repay the FULL amount.  Or will this 22 months served be used in reducing my debt.


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## dapaterson (2 Feb 2010)

QR&O 15.07 discusses your situation:

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/chapter-chapitre-015-eng.asp#cha-015-07


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## Ed Art (2 Feb 2010)

Thank you, can periods of obligatory service be reduced when the member conducts normal service duties in between periods of subsidized education.


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## Brasidas (2 Feb 2010)

Ed Art said:
			
		

> Thank you, can periods of obligatory service be reduced when the member conducts normal service duties in between periods of subsidized education.



Where's the second period of subsidized education come into play? You've got a BA in august 2010.

I thought the operative question was whether you may be allowed another shot at an officer MOC?


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## Ed Art (2 Feb 2010)

The first two years of my degree were subsidized, my CAP course was last summer.  I have been doing OJT as an officer cadet since August.  Thus if im not given another chance at an officer MOC I intend to release and re apply for DEO.  I just was curious as to whether training and work, in between semesters, during the summer, would be used in reducing my obligatory service, or if the 36 months is set to when I was removed from the ROTP, officially at the end of August, just before school.


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## BK (4 Feb 2010)

I find this hard to believe from the surface.

I mean your parents died, yet you perservered which alot of people would choose not to do.  You were up to date with your degree(and your are still pursueing it under your own strength).  You finished BMOQ, something people still are trying to do.  And you made it to the end of CAP.

A true leader is not one that wins every situation, but i think a leader knows how it is loose and feel pain.  Taking a step back in life in order to move forward creates an empathetic leader, one that could help motivate his collegues and CF personnel couterparts to improve on their weakness.  And it will be real because you are not reading it out of a motivation book, you know how it is to struggle.

From what i read from your attitude you seem like a good Ocdt with more than just potential if that means anything.  Keep your chin up, hopefully your situation is clarified.


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## IntlBr (4 Feb 2010)

I don't believe that a PSO worth his or her weight would arbitrarily cast someone aside (in a red trade no less), unless there was more of a history to all of this that we're not getting.  Were there no other mitigating circumstances? E.g. A history of transgressions throughout the course?  Its easy to convince everyone here of one version which places them on your side - but why was your course staff, and the PSO so eager to see it in a different light?

These are honest questions...


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## George Wallace (4 Feb 2010)

BK said:
			
		

> I find this hard to believe from the surface.
> 
> I mean your parents died, yet you perservered which alot of people would choose not to do.  You were up to date with your degree(and your are still pursueing it under your own strength).  You finished BMOQ, something people still are trying to do.  And you made it to the end of CAP.
> 
> ...



 ???

Talk about bizarre.



			
				Ed Art said:
			
		

> The first two years of my degree were subsidized, my CAP course was last summer.  I have been doing OJT as an officer cadet since August.  Thus if im not given another chance at an officer MOC I intend to release and re apply for DEO.  I just was curious as to whether training and work, in between semesters, during the summer, would be used in reducing my obligatory service, or if the 36 months is set to when I was removed from the ROTP, officially at the end of August, just before school.



 ???

You failed in your officer training: specifically CAP.   What makes you think that somehow releasing as a "Training Failure" will magically make you a good candidate for reentry into the CF as a DEO?  Get over your feeling of self entitlement.  Not everyone is a Leader, and even more are not officers.  Having an Degree does not an officer make.


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## Pusser (19 Feb 2010)

From my experience, I would argue that your chances of being able to enroll as a DEO after releasing under these circumstances would be slim to nil.  If your training was ceased due to failure, your release article (the section of the QR&O under which you're released) is likely to be along the lines of "unsuitable for further service" or "not advantageously employable."  These are death blows to future service and make it pretty hard to re-enroll (Chief of Defence Staff approval required).  Your best bet at this stage is to pursue the reasons why you were removed from ROTP and try to have that decision reversed or converted into another commissioning plan.  Another option is to take service as an NCM, spend a few years building experience and credibility and trying for a commission later.


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