# BCAS Job Action delays Med Tech QL3 quals



## EDS334

Well, I was hoping to come onto the site here and find a volume or two on the subject matter, but my searches brought up nothing.  So I figure a proactive and informative approach is better than nothing, and I would like to get some seasoned opinions on the matter as well...

The Justice Institute of British Columbia (JIBC) has been contracted out over the past several years (don't have an exact number) by DND to provide Primary Care Paramedic (PCP) training for the anglophone Med Tech QL3 program.  The instructors provided are members of British Columbia's Ambulance Service (BCAS), which is the sole Ambulance-Service provider for the entire Province.  A critical element in this phase of training is putting classroom practice to work under the direct supervision of a preceptor out in the real world; where each student gets signed off on all the competencies required to achieve accreditation from JIBC, which in turn allows "medics" to write the appropriate licensing exam in any Province.  This is typically been done near the end of the program.

The current situation however has put a wrench in the workings of the CFMSS to produce "qualified" medics.  The employees of BCAS are out on job action, and being deemed "Essential Services" are not allowed to just stop working all together.  However, they have stopped precepting (providing teaching opportunities or military and civilian medics alike).  And yes, there are now rumors of BCAS escalating the strike action, but I say again, "rumors".

4 whole courses (~100 pers) are now directly affected, and all training hence forth could be delayed until the backlog of training is completed.  If the strike ends sooner rather than later, we play the catchup game (something I think we're all willing to do).  1 course is wrapping up here in BC, heading home to Borden.  2 Courses remain, to compelete whatever they can do, and then follow suit.  The last course (that I've heard of) has finished their first phase of training and is now delayed indefinitely - sitting on PRETC.

_*What implications do you think a civil strike should have on the ongoing training of military members?*_

Personally, regardless of the reasons for the job action (as I agree BCAS employee's are getting the short end of the stick) I think it's BS.  While having a piece of paper on civvy street saying I'm a medic or w/e would be real nice - so nice that it's used as a selling point at the CFRC's for the trade - I'm a CF Medic (or want to be one).  Training should be done in house, even if that involves bringing in all civilian instructors on a contract basis.  I mean the CF brings in civvy nurses into Borden to teach the Medics while there, why couldn't we bring in the paramedics?  My Chain has informed our course that should the strike not be resolved by the time our turn comes up to bat or sooner (since there is already a back log in training) we will be heading back to the infamous PRETC where we can then hope for more OJE.


----------



## Armymedic

To answer your question directly;

what do you expect to be done?

The strike is a povincial authority matter. Training of Med Techs is a federal matter. 

As for your personal situation, it is my opinion that DND sees the strike as a short term inconvenience for which any solution is not worth the effort it would take to actions (to post in more instructors or renegotiate new contracts with a different college) to complete the courses that are on hold. 

BTW which QL 3 course are you on?


----------



## PMedMoe

If the medics are finished their QL3 course, why send them to PRETC if no PCP courses are being run?  When I got in (and SFB as well), there was no PCP course and we were still considered "qualified" medics.  Maybe the PCP is prerequisite for deployment, I don't know, but that medic could still be posted to their unit and not sit rotting on PRETC until the strike is resolved.  Just my opinion.

PCP is not the be-all, end-all.  We had (have?) many medics who have deployed without the course.


----------



## ModlrMike

PCP is part of the QL3, you're not actually QL3 if you don't complete PCP. While there have been MedTechs who deployed without it, I don't remember any recently among the young Pte/Cpl group. PCP is also the deployment standard for RegForce MedTechs at the Pte/Cpl level.


----------



## PMedMoe

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> PCP is part of the QL3, you're not actually QL3 if you don't complete PCP. While there have been MedTechs who deployed without it, I don't remember any recently among the young Pte/Cpl group. PCP is also the deployment standard for RegForce MedTechs at the Pte/Cpl level.



That still doesn't mean that without PCP they can't be posted to a unit to actually learn something (Comms, Dvr Wheeled) instead of sitting on PRETC.

You're right, there haven't been too many young Pte/Cpl types deployed without PCP.  When I was a Pte, you couldn't deploy as a QL3 at all.  That's _only_ 13 years ago.   :-\


----------



## ModlrMike

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> That still doesn't mean that without PCP they can't be posted to a unit to actually learn something (Comms, Dvr Wheeled) instead of sitting on PRETC.



Absolutely right, but I recall that the units would have to pay for these courses, which they're loath to do. Particularly if there's no guarantee that the member will return to them after completing the QL3, which frequently happens.


----------



## Armymedic

It makes more sense for everyone but the poor QL3 student who is awaiting training to be patient and wait for the end of the strike. There is no wasting time and money scrambling and scraping to find a solution to a temporary problem that is entirely under someones control and time line.

Yes, it sucks to be them (QL3 students) but not having them will hurt the units less than having them posted in UNqualified and then pulled back for course to earn their most basic level of training.

ps- Moe, PCP is now a requirement for all QL3-QL6A med techs....and a condition any future granting of Med Tech spec pay.


----------



## PMedMoe

SFB said:
			
		

> ps- Moe, PCP is now a requirement for all QL3-QL6A med techs....and a condition any future granting of Med Tech spec pay.



Yeah, I knew that.  Looks like I switched trades at the right time.


----------



## EDS334

Thanks for the replies so far.

For those sent back to PRETC there is the chance to do OJE or to get onto any available courses offered (think Driver Wheel) as some of you have mentioned.  I sure wouldn't turn down that the DW crse; however last time I was on PRETC I was denied that course as "my unit would put me through that when the time comes."  We have also been told that PRETC is aware of our 'unique' situation and that they will be as accomodating as possible, and I'm sure we're all greatful on some level, but no one is holding their breath for miracle work.

I understand the big green won't flinch at the first sign of a disruption of service.  It has it's protocols to run through just like anyone else does.  I did state though that I would like to see inhouse training completed since I believe we have more than capable medics, nurses, and doctors to complete this ourselves (here it becomes a cost effectiveness vs. dependence issue imo).  More to that point, we contract civvy staff to come to our bases to teach, and like today, members of reserve units teach at civilian schools.

Ultimately I still get the same tools to do the job, they just come at me in a different order.  What bothers me though is the seeming dependence upon a civilian authority for a critical component of what we need to practice.  No license, means no real practice.  I don't expect Infanteers to go without doing Live Fire exercises, and I don't expect our Medics to go without real world experiences either.

When I hear that all QL3 Med Tech courses are now off the schedualing board, and no training is planned to start up until AFTER the Olympics - as BCAS has no intention of precepting during that time (need to find a source for that rumor) - I begin to think of sheer retention of existing pers and how long our "Red Trade" will be able to wait out.

So my question remains around the issue of should we rely on civvies for courses?  If so, to what level?  

First time a strike has directly effected me, so I'm just the curious sort.  And yes I am in Chilliwack atm, and intend to stay for as long as I can.   ;D

TIA


----------



## Neon

I did some discrete asking around at Borden. Now this is subject to confirmation, but I believe that the school is hoping to post newly graduated Med Techs to their first units from PCP as 'provisionally qualified'. As soon as the 'on car' portion is available, units will send the Med Techs off to complete it and the 'provisional' will be lifted. Also I believe there is a move in hand to include the Dvr Trg as part of the pre-requisite training at PRETC for the QL3s which will be great for the gaining units and should help with the on car training too. Hope that helps

Neon


----------



## mariomike

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Yeah, I knew that.  Looks like I switched trades at the right time.



But Moe, look at all the fun you missed on the streets! You could have rode with me prior to May 31.


----------



## PMedMoe

mariomike said:
			
		

> But Moe, look at all the fun you missed on the streets! You could have rode with me prior to May 31.



I did my ambulance ride along in downtown Toronto (Queen Street - the crappy end) in Jan-Feb of 1996.  What fun!   :  NOT!   :-\


----------



## MedTechStudent

Hello everyone,

I am one of those Medics "rotting on PRETC".  So I'm gonna try to give some info, and then ask for some as well.  As of right now I am working in the treatment room at the Borden Base hospital along with another woman from my course.  We were the last course to finish our clinical phase, and then stopped from going out to BC at all.  Now, the courses that went out and did there class room and hospital portion of BC *are* being sent to do their field portion and then sent to their units.  As for my course, we are not too sure.  I have been *told* that the JI is CLOSED, until at least 2010.  No more courses coming in, nothing.  Yes, this sucks.  

Thing is, what me and most of my course mates (who've been sent around Canada) are doing, is just our jobs in these treatment rooms.  This includes triage, sick parade, physical exams, injections, IVs, wart parade, wound irrigation, and so on.  Of course this is all done under the supervision and is signed off by a QL5 or other supervisor.  SO me personally, and the rest of us I'm sure, would love to be posted, and then deal with the JI later on.  At least that way, I know where I'm going to live, and I can tell my better half where she will buy her plane ticket to.

As for the JI being a requirement of the QL3-QL6s...I knew that was true but at the same time, two of my instructors on my clinical course had only actually completed it *this* year.  Perhaps some flexibility will be granted.  Things are already being flexed when you consider that the JI *usually* makes you re-do your schooling if you are away for 3 months without doing your on car.  This is obviously being waived for the medics who were there, sent back to PRETC, and will be sent back in the future.

Anyways, I just wanted to put in my situation and opinion from right in the middle of it.  Any information or opinions on the matter, I'd love to hear them.  

Hopefully I'll get this damn cornflake off soon, cheers!  Kyle


----------



## nocknee

I won't be enrolling before spring 2010, hopefully as Med Tech. My question concerns how the BC strike is affecting incoming recruits in this trade. Are recruits piling up on PRETC, or at the recruiting centres? Is there going to be a backlog of applications in the spring that would delay my own application? My aim ultimately is to have a shot at the SAR tech trade, and I would be happy as a Med Tech in any case...but there are other trades I would consider if there is going to be a very long wait to start PCP training as a consequence of this action.
Thank you.


----------



## EDS334

nocknee said:
			
		

> I won't be enrolling before spring 2010, hopefully as Med Tech. *My question concerns how the BC strike is affecting incoming recruits in this trade. Are recruits piling up on PRETC, or at the recruiting centres?* Is there going to be a backlog of applications in the spring that would delay my own application? My aim ultimately is to have a shot at the SAR tech trade, and I would be happy as a Med Tech in any case...but there are other trades I would consider if there is going to be a very long wait to start PCP training as a consequence of this action.
> Thank you.



If I were you... I would call up the recruiting center nearest you, have them get you a contact number for the recruiting center in Victoria BC, and ask a for the facts and their opinions.  Not that other recruiting centers can't tell you what they know, just that those in Victoria may or may not have additional "Provincial updates".

If I were you... I would not be worried about a back log of Med Techs at the CFRC, but in rather sitting in Borden awaiting training.  Simply because you have to: Be selected, Swear In, do BMQ, do SQ, do your clinical portion of your QL3's.  That is many moon's away...  And even then, while awaiting training, there are many things to do, like dress up and shoot some blanks at forces preparing to deploy (it's fun watching the bugs scurry away!! lol jk)

It's not that I foresee the job action taken by BC's paramedics to end anytime soon (the union is imo a lame duck, and the provincial gov't is focused on politically bigger fish), but rather that JIBC is currently in the works negotiating with other Provinces to have us complete our "On Car" portion outside of BC.  There are many more details to this, however given what I've learned to date, nothing is fact, so it's not worth mentioning.  

I wonder if any JAG Officer has looked into the possibility of JIBC being in breach of contract...   :threat:


----------



## medaid

EDS334 said:
			
		

> It's not that I foresee the job action taken by BC's paramedics to end anytime soon (the union is imo a lame duck, and the provincial gov't is focused on politically bigger fish), but rather that JIBC is currently in the works negotiating with other Provinces to have us complete our "On Car" portion outside of BC.  There are many more details to this, however given what I've learned to date, nothing is fact, so it's not worth mentioning.
> 
> I wonder if any JAG Officer has looked into the possibility of JIBC being in breach of contract...   :threat:



Ah... I'm glad that there's someone else who has an opinion on the strike by the Service. JIBC's ability to negotiate will have to be seen, and you have to realize that the protocols of BC is not the same as other provinces. Not to mention that the other provinces all have their OWN service to worry about, so why should one service ditch their own recruits/student PCPs and take on a bunch of CF ones? 

You have to realize that CF PCP students is only a DROP of water in a VERY big pond. Please don't think that their thoughts of out of province precepting has anything remotely to do with you. It has everything to do with the civi PCP students which out number you 5:1. 

Why would JAG Officers look into a breach of contract? BCAS does NOT work for JIBC Paramedic Academy. When they became separate entities way back in the day (when the service stopped training their own), the only thing left in agreement was that all paramedics will be precepted in BC, because they will work in BC, and they will adhere to BC protocols. So another words JIBC being a civilian body (yes JIBC is actually a business) has no control over what the Ambulance does or does not do.


----------



## old medic

I suspect we'll see serious job action / government embarrassment during the Olympics.


----------



## medicineman

old medic said:
			
		

> I suspect we'll see serious job action / government embarrassment during the Olympics.



CUPE represents alot of paramedics - they've backed BCAS up by advising against members going to BC to work during the Olympics...

Sat across from the COO of BCAS the other night at a mess dinner strangely enough...

MM


----------



## medaid

old medic said:
			
		

> I suspect we'll see serious job action / government embarrassment during the Olympics.



Oh ho ho... you don't know the half of it... and the impact that's already having right now.


----------



## Armymedic

nocknee said:
			
		

> Is there going to be a backlog of applications in the spring that would delay my own application? My aim ultimately is to have a shot at the SAR tech trade, and I would be happy as a Med Tech in any case...but there are other trades I would consider if there is going to be a very long wait to start PCP training as a consequence of this action.
> Thank you.



It is my personal and professional opinion that you would be an idiot to not take the job you want if and when you are offered it. This little "hick up" is only a year or so of pain, for which you are being paid, clothed, housed and fed during.

There is a saying: "Its all pensionable time".


----------



## EDS334

MedTech said:
			
		

> Ah... I'm glad that there's someone else who has an opinion on the strike by the Service. JIBC's ability to negotiate will have to be seen, and you have to realize that the protocols of BC is not the same as other provinces. Not to mention that the other provinces all have their OWN service to worry about, so why should one service ditch their own recruits/student PCPs and take on a bunch of CF ones?
> 
> You have to realize that CF PCP students is only a DROP of water in a VERY big pond. Please don't think that their thoughts of out of province precepting has anything remotely to do with you. It has everything to do with the civi PCP students which out number you 5:1.
> 
> Why would JAG Officers look into a breach of contract? BCAS does NOT work for JIBC Paramedic Academy. When they became separate entities way back in the day (when the service stopped training their own), the only thing left in agreement was that all paramedics will be precepted in BC, because they will work in BC, and they will adhere to BC protocols. So another words JIBC being a civilian body (yes JIBC is actually a business) has no control over what the Ambulance does or does not do.



I would not expect JAG to look at BCAS with a microscope, but rather JIBC.  BCAS facilitates JIBC's requests for preceptors, however JIBC is on the hook for a contract with DND afaik.

As a contracted institution, JIBC has made commitments (somewhere on paper I presume) that were made prior to this latest disruption in BCAS employee's accepting JIBC students for precepting.  While the crux of the situation rests in BC with the members of CUPE Local 873, BCAS, and the Provincial government (to settle issues), the Justice Institute of BC is no longer able to meet their scheduled training plan for their students (military and civilian alike).  

Once we've completed all we can out here in BC, we're heading back to Borden to complete our QL3 field phase ASAP, and then get posted to our units.  This is a huge plus for everyone, for the time being as we get to move on with our lives and careers.  I can only start to imagine the administrative burden this will cause, since those of us that are posted will do so with a footnote beside our name...  Pte. Bloggins Med Tech1

And yes, just like you mentioned about DND vs Civ. students, JIBC has reminded us Military folk almost every day that "Fee for Service" students definitely capture the schools attention... "on a different level".  What I find interesting is that while DND students are looked at as free loaders compared to civvies, DND still floats the bill.  But... uggg...I digress.



			
				SFB said:
			
		

> It is my personal and professional opinion that you would be an idiot to not take the job you want if and when you are offered it. This little "hick up" is only a year or so of pain, for which you are being paid, clothed, housed and fed during.
> 
> There is a saying: "Its all pensionable time".



And that pensionable time is quite good.   ;D

1.  Special Case.


----------



## medaid

EDS334 said:
			
		

> I would not expect JAG to look at BCAS with a microscope, but rather JIBC.  BCAS facilitates JIBC's requests for preceptors, however JIBC is on the hook for a contract with DND afaik.



...... BCAS does not facilitate their "request". BCAS IS THE ONLY PRECEPTING ENTITY IN BC. This comes from the fact that they are the ONLY AMBULANCE SERVICE, and to restate what I said before "BC PROTOCOLS ARE DIFFERENT FROM OTHER PROVINCES" so even if the PCP students were precepted somewhere else it would not be recognized, and when you get to licensing you'll be all fracked up. 



			
				EDS334 said:
			
		

> As a contracted institution, JIBC has made commitments (somewhere on paper I presume) that were made prior to this latest disruption in BCAS employee's accepting JIBC students for precepting.  While the crux of the situation rests in BC with the members of CUPE Local 873, BCAS, and the Provincial government (to settle issues), the Justice Institute of BC is no longer able to meet their scheduled training plan for their students (military and civilian alike).



Again... this is the JI's fault... how? Despite the NOCPs every province still controls their own health care, which includes paramedicine, and as such every province has DIFFERENT PROTOCOLS! Unless some other service uses the SAME protocols as BCAS (which I doubt) down to the T, then the preception is useless! JIBC can't make others do things their way, and as such it doesn't work to precept with anyone else. BCAS is the only place... so... unless the JI can some how convince the province to smarten the frack up (which I doubt) you are all in a pickle. But hey... look at it this way, at least you still have a job. 



			
				EDS334 said:
			
		

> And yes, just like you mentioned about DND vs Civ. students, JIBC has reminded us Military folk almost every day that "Fee for Service" students definitely capture the schools attention... "on a different level".  What I find interesting is that while DND students are looked at as free loaders compared to civvies, DND still floats the bill.  But... uggg...I digress.



This maybe because the "Fee for Service" students don't get PAID to go to the JI. Maybe because the "Fee for Service" students didn't get their seats paid for by the CF. Maybe because when these "Fee for Service" students fail this course, they don't have a job to go back to, and they don't get to try it again, since $6000 is allot of money for those who don't have the CF to foot the bill? Even if you're not licensed it's not that big of a deal is it? It is to all those who wanted to be a Paramedic. You've got a job... they're starving, and will continue to starve on the current contract even if the job action is over. 

I'm sorry to say but I've seen some pretty atrocious MedTechs in the PCP program (clarify not the old timers getting their PCP, but the brand new off the street applicants). Sometimes I think that maybe this "oh if I fail I'll still have a job" mentality is getting to the instructors... not to mention the rest of the JIBC students.


----------



## EDS334

MedTech said:
			
		

> ...... BCAS does not facilitate their "request". BCAS IS THE ONLY PRECEPTING ENTITY IN BC. This comes from the fact that they are the ONLY AMBULANCE SERVICE, and to restate what I said before "BC PROTOCOLS ARE DIFFERENT FROM OTHER PROVINCES" so even if the PCP students were precepted somewhere else it would not be recognized, and when you get to licensing you'll be all fracked up.
> 
> Again... this is the JI's fault... how? Despite the NOCPs every province still controls their own health care, which includes paramedicine, and as such every province has DIFFERENT PROTOCOLS! Unless some other service uses the SAME protocols as BCAS (which I doubt) down to the T, then the preception is useless! JIBC can't make others do things their way, and as such it doesn't work to precept with anyone else. BCAS is the only place... so... unless the JI can some how convince the province to smarten the frack up (which I doubt) you are all in a pickle. But hey... look at it this way, at least you still have a job.
> 
> This maybe because the "Fee for Service" students don't get PAID to go to the JI. Maybe because the "Fee for Service" students didn't get their seats paid for by the CF. Maybe because when these "Fee for Service" students fail this course, they don't have a job to go back to, and they don't get to try it again, since $6000 is allot of money for those who don't have the CF to foot the bill? Even if you're not licensed it's not that big of a deal is it? It is to all those who wanted to be a Paramedic. You've got a job... they're starving, and will continue to starve on the current contract even if the job action is over.
> 
> I'm sorry to say but I've seen some pretty atrocious MedTechs in the PCP program (clarify not the old timers getting their PCP, but the brand new off the street applicants). Sometimes I think that maybe this "oh if I fail I'll still have a job" mentality is getting to the instructors... not to mention the rest of the JIBC students.



First off, what's with the SHOUTING?   >

Yes, BCAS is the only Ambulance service in the Province, and as such is the source to obtain preceptorship.  And while I would love to think that given the option the Paramedics of BC would precept irregardless of their own job disputes, I do not confuse the fact that BCAS and their Employee's made no promises (afaik) to DND.  Since they are an essential service, and the only supplier of that service - like us - they too are "in a pickle".  I digress though.

To the point of Protocols, "Licensing" and the like, JIBC has informed my course, that should they find us out of province ambulance shifts, they (JIBC) will ensure we are able to meet the host Provinces Protocols.  Given that most Provincial standards are above that of the NOCP's like you mentioned, we are left to use the AIT (Agreement of Internal Trade) Tool to have a rough guess on what we might need to study up on.  And I'm sure that a finer comb through will be done by JIBC to ensure that the PCP-Student licenses are also reviewed so much as to ensure that the simple status of being a student would still allow us ample opportunities.  Otherwise what's the point eh?  

I personally don't consider the "BC license" to be critical, given the facts that I probably won't be posted to a unit residing in BC, and (I hope) it'll be a few years before I seriously need to consider my career options.  Even if I were to return to BC immediately I believe that eventually I'll be granted the chance to achieve it.  What does irk me though, like I've already mentioned somewhere on this forum, is that as of this moment JIBC will not recognize our having completed their program.  As a Federally accredited Institution, the program outline has 33 university level credits which can be applied (or submitted for acceptance) to any other Educational institute.  And I would love to continue my education onwards up the food chain.  More to point, having completed the JIBC PCP Program, I would be able to challenge the Provincial licensing exams (most likely after hours of review and study of local practice) so that I could obtain a useful license; thereby allowing me more opportunities (if approved by my CoC) to upkeep essential skills - such as basic airway management.  Granted, we can practice on dolls.  Hell, we can practice on live dummies too (if risks are deemed appropriate).  But there ain't nothing like the real deal.  And being Provincially registered to perform the delegated medical acts required to upkeep those skills is not only in keeping with the MCSP, but common dog, no?


----------



## aesop081

EDS334 said:
			
		

> I would not expect JAG to look at BCAS with a microscope, but rather JIBC. 1.  Special Case.



I would say it would be more likely that the lawyers would be civillians and not JAG.

PWGSC is not part of the military. They are the ones doing the contracting.


----------



## EDS334

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I would say it would be more likely that the lawyers would be civillians and not JAG.
> 
> PWGSC is not part of the military. They are the ones doing the contracting.



Public Works?  Google-Fu to the rescue.  Cool beans Aviator, thanks.

The whole aspect of JAG/Lawyers/Contracts is just more a note of curiosity on my point, but it's good to know where to start looking should I determine to make the CF my life long career.


----------



## mariomike

MedTech said:
			
		

> Oh ho ho... you don't know the half of it... and the impact that's already having right now.



I just know what I read in the papers. I received this today. FYI, if interested:
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Canadian-Union-Of-Public-Employees-Cupe-Bc-1063368.html


----------



## hlss_h513

just out of the blue here but couldent find a forum for it but what highschool credits are required to become a medic on the CF and what grade level should they be in. 11, 12? both? college/university?


----------



## mariomike

hlss_h513 said:
			
		

> just out of the blue here but couldent find a forum for it but what highschool credits are required to become a medic on the CF and what grade level should they be in. 11, 12? both? college/university?



You may find this link of interest. See "Qualification Requirements":
http://www.forces.ca/html/medicaltechnician_reg_en.aspx


----------



## medaid

EDS334 said:
			
		

> First off, what's with the SHOUTING?   >



Those were emphasis not shouting.


----------



## old medic

This is an older article from Oct 18th 2009. Not directly related to the job action at BCAS,
but related. Looks like they are cutting their Instructor trainer programs to fire departments
that first respond. 

Training cuts anger fire chiefs
B.C. commission ends contract, jeopardizing first-aid programs
By Rob Shaw, Times ColonistOctober 18, 2009
http://www.timescolonist.com/health/Training+cuts+anger+fire+chiefs/2117004/story.html



> B.C.'s fire chiefs say they're angry and confused by cuts to a provincial program that trains firefighters to provide medical aid before an ambulance arrives at the scene of an emergency.
> 
> The chiefs say they were blindsided last week when the province's Emergency Health Services Commission abruptly announced it will end a contract to pay for advanced first aid training for firefighters at the B.C. Justice Institute.
> 
> The move is effective March 31, 2010, but the Justice Institute has already started cancelling programs that certified senior firefighters, who then returned to train their own departments.
> 
> That's left fire departments asking tough questions about who will pay for future training, and whether it's worth cutting actual firefighting services in order to pay for what's supposed to be a voluntary program to help the B.C. Ambulance Service.
> 
> "Right now, the reality is the answer would probably be no, and I have to look at the program and look at the affect of us getting out of it," said Victoria fire chief Doug Angrove.
> 
> "If they are relying on the goodwill of some of the departments, well that could be a problem because goodwill only goes so far."
> 
> Under the first-responder program, fire halls dispatch firefighters to certain medical emergency calls -- such as unconscious collapses, shortness of breath and severe chest pain -- because they can often get to the scene more quickly than an ambulance and begin lifesaving first-aid procedures.
> 
> Traditionally, the B.C. Emergency Health Services Commission has helped to pay to train the firefighters at the Justice Institute in exchange for departments voluntarily helping the paramedics.
> 
> Cutting the training saved the Emergency Health Services Commission $250,000 a year and was part of a "very difficult decision" to find budget savings ordered by the provincial government, said Jim Christensen, vice-president for emergency and health services.
> 
> "We came to this year with the budget crunch and there was clear government direction that we will not be allowed to go over our budget, and with increased demand from all sorts of areas we were seriously at risk of doing that," he said.
> 
> The commission doesn't want to lose the first-responder program and is trying to find an alternative way to train firefighters, said Christensen.
> 
> But he admits it may cost fire departments more money for future training and he realizes, to them, it looks like downloaded costs.
> 
> Paramedics, who are locked in a lengthy labour dispute with the commission, say they support the firefighters.
> 
> "I agree with the fire chiefs, why would they continue?" asked BJ Chute, spokesman for the Ambulance Paramedics of B.C. union.
> 
> "If we had the appropriate number of ambulances and the appropriate number of paramedics, we wouldn't have to rely on the fire departments."
> 
> The lack of clear answers is frustrating, said Angrove, chairman of the Greater Victoria Fire Chiefs. The Victoria Fire Department has already submitted its budget to city council and there's little wiggle room to find extra money to train 23 firefighters whose certification as level three advanced first responders expires next year.
> 
> "If you pass on these costs to volunteer fire departments, or any fire departments, and they can't afford to stay in the business, and the B.C. Ambulance Service isn't well-resourced in those communities, then I think ultimately the patient is going to suffer," said Angrove.
> 
> The cuts come as numerous municipal councils renew liability agreements for the first-responder program. Firefighters call it providing "pre-hospital care."
> 
> "I think you'll find some communities will be asking that question, should we be involved in pre-hospital care?" said Stephen
> 
> Gamble, president of the Fire Chiefs' Association of B.C.
> 
> "Pre-hospital care right now really needs the fire service to assist. At this point, the capacity isn't there to just be run by B.C. Ambulance.
> 
> "So whether people come to the table willingly or not, they need to come to the table and talk about it. I'm confident they will. Cooler heads will prevail."
> 
> rfshaw@tc.canwest.com


----------



## mariomike

old medic said:
			
		

> Training cuts anger fire chiefs
> B.C. commission ends contract, jeopardizing first-aid programs



Quote from the story posted by Old Medic:
"If we had the appropriate number of ambulances and the appropriate number of paramedics, we wouldn't have to rely on the fire departments."
That's unlikely to happen until the four to one ratio of Firefighters versus to Paramedics is evened out a little bit.
"When seconds count, we're 15 minutes away."


----------



## old medic

Olympics reason for back-to-work legislation: union
Tue Nov. 03 2009
The Canadian Press
copy at: http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091103/bc_strike_end_reason_091103/20091103/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome



> The union representing B.C. ambulance paramedics says it has information showing the Olympics are the real reason the provincial government has introduced legislation to end a seven-month strike by the workers.
> 
> CUPE points to a memo from Vancouver Games medical director Dr. Mike Wilkinson to Ambulance Service CEO Lee Doney and other government officials.
> 
> The union says the memo asks for a guarantee from the government that all ambulance services will be available during the Games and says the guarantee could come through either a settlement of the strike or a legislated solution.
> 
> CUPE B.C. president Barry O'Neill says it's obvious the memo is at the heart of the reason for the legislation, which would impose a three per cent wage increase in a one-year contract.
> 
> When Health Minister Kevin Falcon introduced the legislation on Monday, he didn't mention the Olympics, but said the strike had dragged on too long and was putting people's health at risk with the approach of winter and in the face of the H1N1 virus.
> 
> O'Neill says blaming the H1N1 pandemic when paramedics have been calling on the government to address the issue for more than a year is despicable, and he accuses the government of having a "shameful disregard" for the workers.


----------



## mariomike

old medic said:
			
		

> Olympics reason for back-to-work legislation: union
> Tue Nov. 03 2009
> The Canadian Press



Found this in my in-box today. FYI, if interested:
"November 3, 2009
Dear concerned citizen,
Yesterday (November 2nd), the BC Liberal government introduced legislation that forces B.C.’s 3,500 ambulance paramedics “back to work” in the middle of collective bargaining. The Ambulance Services Collective Agreement Act (BILL 21), introduced by Health Services Minister Kevin Falcon, is unprecedented in Canadian labour history. This is the first time a government has forced public employees to accept a collective agreement while the union is in the middle of voting on an offer from that same government.
Falcon has used the H1N1 virus to justify this outrageous assault on collective bargaining, and he continually denies that the Olympics are driving the government’s strategy. But we now know that in September the BC Ambulance Service received a memo from VANOC demanding a guarantee of ambulance services, “through either settlement or legislated ‘détente’ for the Games.”
This only compounds the outrage of Bill 21. The government is lying about its reasons for imposing a settlement.  If the Liberals had negotiated a fair collective agreement for B.C.’s hardworking ambulance paramedics, this issue would never have been raised.
This legislation is currently being debated in BC’s Provincial Legislature and could pass as early as Thursday.  It is thus critical that your MLA hear from you immediately, prior to voting on it.  We are asking you to e-mail your MLA with a copy to Premier Campbell and Minister Falcon.
For those of you in Liberal constituencies, please put pressure on your MLA with  the message that this legislation is regressive and shameful and that, as their constituent, you demand that they oppose Bill 21 and further demand that they urge the government to allow the collective bargaining process to continue.
If you live in an NDP constituency, please thank your MLA for their opposition to Bill 21 thus far and ask them to use all means at their disposal to defeat this legislation.
For those who live in the Victoria area, we encourage you to visit the legislature tomorrow (Wednesday) from 1:30 pm until 7 pm to witness debate on the bill.
Thank you for your support.
Ambulance Paramedics Of BC
www.saveourparamedics.com
www.apbc.ca

"MLAs battle over paramedic strike:
VICTORIA – Debate heated up Tuesday on the B.C. Liberal government's surprise move to impose a contract on ambulance paramedics and dispatchers on the eve of a membership vote on their latest contract offer.":
http://www.bclocalnews.com/bc_cariboo/quesnelobserver/news/68957802.html

Province of British Columbia: Commission To Review Ambulance Service Bargaining
VICTORIA, Nov 04, 2009 (M2 PRESSWIRE via COMTEX) -- Labour Minister Murray Coell today announced that he will appoint an Industrial Inquiry Commission to put forward options for a new bargaining structure for ambulance paramedics and dispatchers in the province.":
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/11/04/4463513.htm

"BC’s Health Services Minister has admitted his decision to propel striking medics back to work was motivated by needing to secure EMS coverage during the upcoming Olympic Games. That is the word from the Vancouver Sun (November 4) which quoted Kevin Falcon as admitting the fact shortly after the prehospital union revealed covert discussions between Olympic organizers and BC Ambulance. According to labour reps, Games bureaucrats sent a September memo to EMS brass strong-arming for a strike settlement or legislated resolution.  Along with citing the Olympics as a factor, Falcon also said the H1N1 flu was also a motivator in his decision. Under the proposed legislation mandating the strike’s end, medics would receive a one year contract involving a 3 per cent wage hike retroactive to April 1."


----------



## lavoie020

Anyone as any info on what this means for all the unqualified QL3 sitting in the units... Cause I know 17 pte that are anxious to know what's going with that.


----------



## aesop081

lavoie020 said:
			
		

> Cause I know 17 pte that are anxious to know what's going with that.



You also know 17 Privates who have a chain of command that is there to answer those questions.


----------



## Cansky

lavoie020 said:
			
		

> Anyone as any info on what this means for all the unqualified QL3 sitting in the units... Cause I know 17 pte that are anxious to know what's going with that.



I realize your anxious to finalize your training but this legistlation was passed just this past friday.  The school now has see BCAS is going to start training again.  If you read the reports out of BC you'll find that BCAS has little intention of rushing back to work.  So for now patience and let us at the school figure things out.


----------



## mariomike

FYI, if interested:
http://www.cfax1070.com/newsstory.php?newsId=11267


----------



## mariomike

In today's paper.
"B.C. Ambulance warns of delays due to staff shortages":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-ambulance-warns-of-delays-due-to-staff-shortages/article1363389/


----------



## EDS334

http://www.jibc.ca/paramedic/index.htm said:
			
		

> Update on Paramedic Job Action – November 10, 2009
> 
> On Saturday, November 7th, 2009, Bill 21 was passed into law, which legislated the BC Paramedics back to work.
> 
> Over the coming weeks we will be working closely with all stakeholders to resume paramedic practicum, and to select tentative dates for resuming paramedic courses in 2010.
> 
> We will continue to provide you with updates via this website as new information becomes available.



The cog slowly turns.


----------



## medaid

Don't be too happy.
Back to work doesn't mean they have to do jack all that's out of their primary function.

Guess where precepting is under? Give you one guess.


----------



## EDS334

MedTech said:
			
		

> Don't be too happy.
> Back to work doesn't mean they have to do jack all that's out of their primary function.
> 
> Guess where precepting is under? Give you one guess.



No where did I say I was extactic.  I guess the smiley face was a little too much then?  

Given the fact that JIBC has some public data showing dates for precepting in 2010, with little other detail to them, I suggest the system that be, is indeed moving in a positive - albeit slow - direction for those of us who are QL2.9.

It's not "hurray I get to work" news.  It's just simple intel that keeps us informed.  Those who wish to make up their own minds can follow the link:  http://learning.jibc.ca/TPOnline/TPOnline.dll/Public%20Course/COURSENO=COUR2003090212343001463104

Might want to read the entire thread before you take my smiley face to mean anything more.  I mean my cynicism is near record levels now.  But hey, it is the Christmas seasons, so I guess I am happy..  Anyone who is currently out in JIBC, please help this thread and post what you know... Or what you don't know!  

Merry Ho Ho!   :christmas happy:

And FYI, my new nick name suggests my trade... Just Another Military Medic..  Let's keep our spirits up!


----------



## mariomike

JAMMED said:
			
		

> Anyone who is currently out in JIBC, please help this thread and post what you know... Or what you don't know!



All I know about JIBC is what I read in the papers: "The union has also systematically disrupted paramedic training, refusing practicums and causing the Justice Institute of B.C. to turn away hundreds of students.":
http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/keremeosreview/opinion/73004987.html


----------



## EDS334

mariomike said:
			
		

> All I know about JIBC is what I read in the papers: "The union has also systematically disrupted paramedic training, refusing practicums and causing the Justice Institute of B.C. to turn away hundreds of students.":
> http://www.bclocalnews.com/okanagan_similkameen/keremeosreview/opinion/73004987.html



Thanks MM.  It would appear that some reporters are now finally tackling the larger question of "what does this all mean?"  Kudos to them for starting to take a real role in investigative journalism.  

 :christmas happy:


----------



## medaid

JAMMED said:
			
		

> No where did I say I was extactic.  I guess the smiley face was a little too much then?



Nope, but I was putting a halt on the soon to be happy people. 



			
				JAMMED said:
			
		

> Given the fact that JIBC has some public data showing dates for precepting in 2010, with little other detail to them, I suggest the system that be, is indeed moving in a positive - albeit slow - direction for those of us who are QL2.9.



Not to dampen your holiday spirits here, but AFAIK the majority of the preceptors have turned in their coats and said no more. So... yeah. 




			
				JAMMED said:
			
		

> It's not "hurray I get to work" news.  It's just simple intel that keeps us informed.



It's INT in the Canadian Forces. Intel's a processor company for computers  >



			
				JAMMED said:
			
		

> Might want to read the entire thread before you take my smiley face to mean anything more.  I mean my cynicism is near record levels now.  But hey, it is the Christmas seasons, so I guess I am happy..  Anyone who is currently out in JIBC, please help this thread and post what you know... Or what you don't know!



I think you need to read the entire thread, since I've been posting the most up to date info here for many re: precepting both during the job action, and well... now, with my most recent reply to you. I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but I will say now what I've said before. JIBC PCP Students may have more priority over QL3 MedTech Students.


----------



## medaid

JAMMED said:
			
		

> Thanks MM.  It would appear that some reporters are now finally tackling the larger question of "what does this all mean?"  Kudos to them for starting to take a real role in investigative journalism.
> 
> :christmas happy:



Make sure you take that attitude you've gotten from the article to your preceptors, when you get to a preceptor. You'll fit in really well. Make sure you also quote things from that article, and ask them it it'll be okay to use the new Primary Survey:

Airway
Breathing
Can You Drive To the Hospital?

Investigative reporting my ass. 

 :


----------



## EDS334

MedTech said:
			
		

> I think you need to read the entire thread, since I've been posting the most up to date info here for many re: precepting both during the job action, and well... now, with my most recent reply to you. I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but I will say now what I've said before. JIBC PCP Students may have more priority over QL3 MedTech Students.



Well I just went back and read my thread, and I would say Mariomike has been posting the most up-to-date information.  But I don't think anyone is shooting for recognition.  I merely figured you were confusing me as a new guy to the thread, when in fact I started it (forum name change).

I tell you this:  My mk1 eyes have seen "on strike" stickers still across ambulances here in BC (yesterday iirc).  Likewise, I asked a few ambulance crews who were on break if they knew of any precepting (scheduled or ongoing) and they said no. 

Whether this is just them playing cautious in informing some "Joe" off the street, or a failure in communication from BCAS to its employee's, or JIBC has yet to amend their course calendar, it would seem something remains amiss.

MedTech, what's your JIBC course number?   :christmas happy:


----------

