# A junior officer looking for some advice.



## Uberirdisch

Dear Milnet.ca,

I have been a long time reader of these forums, but due to the search function I have had my questions answered quite thoroughly each time they arose, thank you. I come to these forums today seeking some advice and honest opinions regarding my current situation. I do not wish to waste anyone's time so this post will be as brief as possible, and I want thank all of you in advance for reading this. I also want to apologize if I misplaced where this should have been posted.

I was recently sworn into my current Unit, and out of respect for the Unit and its Directing Staff (which has been tremendous in my application process, thank you) they will remain unnamed, but I was not given the rank of Ofcd, rather I was allocated as a 2Lt. I am 24, currently finishing a psychology degree, I have no prior military experience, a spoonful of knowledge regarding the military, and I am not BMQ qualified. My concern here is not why I was given the rank 2Lt, life is as wonderful as it is painful so it is not my place to question the reasoning behind that decision whatsoever, this is just a premise to my situation. 

My superiors explained that the opportunity presented to me here is unique. Since my enrollment process was hiccuped many times (like everyone else) to which my Unit Directing Staff felt a need to intervene, and literally force my enrollment into completion. The opportunity to enter a summer BMQ was missed, and am now currently scheduled for a Fall BMQ. Concurrently the Unit also is receiving a large influx of new untrained members who are also scheduled for a Fall BMQ. The CO told me that the men and women who I will have the absolute honor and privilege of leading in the future will be with me in the BMQ directly, and many eyes will be watching how I conduct myself during this test. The entire Unit is aware of my situation, so it is clear to me that the way I conduct myself by dress, speech, and overall conduct in these times before my trial by fire will be watched with a close eye by everyone, especially the Senior NCO's. To be fair this is the military, my conduct, dress, etc. will always be watched from now on.

What I am asking of Milnet.ca is for any personal advice on this situation. Everything is an asset here, and I assure all of you that all replies will be considered and heavily weighed upon. Perhaps if the situation is to be repeated in the future, they will be passed along. I give credit where credit is due, I assure all of you that I will not claim any of your ideas as my own for future reference. I swore allegiance to the Queen, Canada, its citizens and their interests, my intentions here are to learn and to do my best to fit into a magnificent system, and to assist others to succeed and do the same.  

The way I tend to view things is like this: 

The military will do absolutely fine with or without me, I am not a special character, I am just a man. That being said, I believe if someone else can accomplish a task then to some degree, whether for better or worse, I should be able to accomplish it as well. I accommodate to the system of the military, not the other way around. If in my career I show military intelligence, put my best foot forward, then perhaps after a long and dedicated career I my have the opportunity to put my opinion on the table. The bottom line here is that I know very little, and as a post I read a while ago put it "I don't even know how to lace my boots right." 

However the point is I can learn. Knowledge and a willingness to learn is one of the best tools anyone can have, among other things, especially when given for free. When someone speaks to me with the intention to teach, I shut up, pay full attention, and always keep what they say in mind.

I will be put through my paces through training, that is just the way it is, and I am fairly certain even more so because of my situation. I am a firm believer that all things desired and given must be earned. I was very fortunate to have this opportunity and I do not wish to embarrass the people who decided it was my opportunity to have. 

With that being said I am a people first type of leader and a team player, and I must give thanks to the men and women of Soldiers of Fitness Boot camp who helped me cultivate that style of thinking. I must recommend that program to anyone considering any sort of career that involves leadership. 

This post went much longer than anticipated to which I apologize, and I appreciate your time reading this, and look forward to any and all responses. 

Thank you.


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## Infanteer

As you said, the eyes are always upon you.  Just be quiet, do what is asked of you and set the example for your subordinates and you should do fine.


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## Sythen

Not meaning to step out of my lane here, but if you're an Officer you should be doing BMOQ and not BMQ, therefore you won't be on the same course as your future subordinates. Maybe I misread your post though.


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## frank1515

Reserve Officers do BMQ with the NCMs and the leadership portion of BMOQ. His assessment is correct.

_Edited for typos_


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## Sythen

frank1515 said:
			
		

> Reserve Officers do BMQ with the NCMs are the leadership portion of BMOQ. His assessment is correct.



oh I see. Ignore my post then.


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## Blackadder1916

My first word of advice would be to closely follow the principles of military writing:

Accuracy
Brevity
Clarity
Relevance
Logic

My intent is not to insult you but I did find it a little difficult to ascertain the specific advice you are seeking.  My assumption is you are seeking wisdom on how you should conduct yourself differently as an untrained 2nd Lieutenant vice an untrained Officer Cadet (or the expectations of your superiors, subordinates and peers).  The simple answer is - no difference.  You already seem to have some sense of what will be expected of you.

A memorable quote from one of the Warrants instructing on my Phase 2  (decades ago) to the number of DEO 2nd Lts (as opposed to the remainder of us who were OCdts from OCTP) was " . . . 2nd Lts are just thick OCdts".

_edited to correct typo_


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## Uberirdisch

Thank you all, and this is exactly what I was referring too. 



			
				Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> My assumption is you are seeking wisdom on how you should conduct yourself differently as an untrained 2nd Lieutentant vice an untrained Officer Cadet (or the expections of your superiors, subordinates and peers).


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## FSTO

frank1515 said:
			
		

> Reserve Officers do BMQ with the NCMs and the leadership portion of BMOQ. His assessment is correct.
> 
> _Edited for typos_



Naval Reserve Officers do BMOQ only.


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## frank1515

FSTO said:
			
		

> Naval Reserve Officers do BMOQ only.



Ack.


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## OldSolduer

Infanteer said:
			
		

> As you said, the eyes are always upon you.  Just be quiet, do what is asked of you and set the example for your subordinates and you should do fine.



Good advice from a man that's been there, done that and has several T Shirts.

I'll offer my  :2c:

You have NCOs to do business for you. Tell them what you want done, their lefts and rights of arc and get out of their way.
Your 2 I/C should be a senior Sgt or WO - he/she should have the wherewithall to direct you, gently, with words of advice and on occassion...some "counselling". Once again, tell him/her what to do and get out of the road. 
Don't be a follower, be a leader.


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## Redeye

I will echo Mr. Seggie's advice - seek the advice of the NCOs, they will give it freely, and if they see that you are a man of integrity they will do whatever it takes to help you succeed.  Their counsel is priceless.

Don't worry about the OCdt/2Lt thing - both ranks are treated relatively equally - as people in the training system with varying levels of knowledge who can safely be assumed to know absolutely nothing.  Every officer you will ever see in the CF was there at some point.


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## ballz

On another note, about your conduct during BMQ, I will say this:

While you are on BMQ with your future subordinates, they are your peers. There is no difference between any of you. Do you best to perform, in all aspects, and carry as much weight (figuratively... and sometimes literally) as you can, because that is what everyone expects of everyone in the military anyway. If you can prove to them that you can be a good fireteam partner, a good teammate, and a good soldier, they will be much more willing to let you lead them when the times comes that they are your subordinates.

I would look at this as an opportunity to prove to your future subordinates that you can do the things you expect of them. You're pretty lucky in some ways there, so don't bomb it 

And I hope some of the more experienced members who have already commented will shed light on what I just said, as my 2 cents is only worth a fraction of theirs.


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## Dissident

http://regimentalrogue.com/


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## MedCorps

Do the course.  Make sure you do well and place as close to the top as possible.  This is your chance to shine. People have long memories, especially your future troops and if you are a lazy wanker on course they will remember it and bring it up in the future at the most unkind of moments when you are responsible for leading them. 

Treat them like your peers whilst training but I would remain somewhat reserved and careful in social situations as to avoid photo's from the weekend course Jagermister shooter party getting back to your Adjutant or CO. If things start to get *truly*  dodgy (i.e. jimmy is doing drugs in the washroom or a directing staff member is banging one of the candidates, rather than the regular low level soldier will be soldier BS)  just request to your section commander to speak with the first officer in your chain of command and abdicate your QR&O 4.02(e) responsibility by reporting the issue to someone in rank superior to you.  No matter how many course-romances I have seen start on basic training... do not, I say again, do not fall into this trap for all sorts of good reasons. 

At the end of the course they should say... hell, 2Lt XXX is not such a bad guy.  I think he will make a good officer once done his training and I would follow him.  Rather than.  2Lt XXX is a tosser... he is a drunken, lazy, womanizing dog fornicator who lacks any true military insight....  I hope he buys it on phase training. 

Good luck.  Train hard. You have been given an excellent opportunity.  I have been in a similar situation  and I survived  :nod:

MC


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## Pusser

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Good advice from a man that's been there, done that and has several T Shirts.
> 
> I'll offer my  :2c:
> 
> You have NCOs to do business for you. Tell them what you want done, their lefts and rights of arc and get out of their way.
> Your 2 I/C should be a senior Sgt or WO - he/she should have the wherewithall to direct you, gently, with words of advice and on occassion...some "counselling". Once again, tell him/her what to do and get out of the road.
> Don't be a follower, be a leader.



Good advice, but I'll add a caveat.  You must learn and understand what it is your subordinates (including the NCOs and warrant officers) do.  I don't mean get down in the weeds and try to do it better than they can.  You will have too much on your plate to do that anyway.  However, you need to learn the technical aspects of your profession so you can tell whether your subordinates are doing it right.  Just because you don't actually dig the latrine doesn't mean you don't have to know how it's supposed to be dug.  Although there is a great deal of truth to the idea that NCOs are the backbone of the organization, the reality is that some parts of that backbone are not as strong as perhaps they should be.  It will be your job to identify and correct the weaknesses.  Not all of your NCOs will be God's gift to the Army (gasp! I said it!  ;D) and you may have to deal with a few lesser ones (WARNING:  2Lts are not normally in a position to make this judgement, so be careful!!!).  Learn from them, but remember that you are still in charge.  Be flexible and receptive to advice and your NCOs will respect you for it.  However, don't be a puppet.  They won't respect you for that.


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## Tow Tripod

Here is some free advice from somebody that has been "exposed" to the flawed training system by witnessing what happens to some junior reserve officers on the BMQ(R) courses. Listen to orders. React to orders. Ask intelligent questions. Don't make the same mistake twice and for the love of God don't try to tell a SNCO that you can do the whole course on a medical chit. Believe me it happened again summer! Valiant effort though.(sarcasm) Some did well others not so much. Good luck and be fit!


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## daftandbarmy

Uberirdisch said:
			
		

> Dear Milnet.ca,
> 
> I have been a long time reader of these forums, but due to the search function I have had my questions answered quite thoroughly each time they arose, thank you. I come to these forums today seeking some advice and honest opinions regarding my current situation. I do not wish to waste anyone's time so this post will be as brief as possible, and I want thank all of you in advance for reading this. I also want to apologize if I misplaced where this should have been posted.
> 
> I was recently sworn into my current Unit, and out of respect for the Unit and its Directing Staff (which has been tremendous in my application process, thank you) they will remain unnamed, but I was not given the rank of Ofcd, rather I was allocated as a 2Lt. I am 24, currently finishing a psychology degree, I have no prior military experience, a spoonful of knowledge regarding the military, and I am not BMQ qualified. My concern here is not why I was given the rank 2Lt, life is as wonderful as it is painful so it is not my place to question the reasoning behind that decision whatsoever, this is just a premise to my situation.
> 
> My superiors explained that the opportunity presented to me here is unique. Since my enrollment process was hiccuped many times (like everyone else) to which my Unit Directing Staff felt a need to intervene, and literally force my enrollment into completion. The opportunity to enter a summer BMQ was missed, and am now currently scheduled for a Fall BMQ. Concurrently the Unit also is receiving a large influx of new untrained members who are also scheduled for a Fall BMQ. The CO told me that the men and women who I will have the absolute honor and privilege of leading in the future will be with me in the BMQ directly, and many eyes will be watching how I conduct myself during this test. The entire Unit is aware of my situation, so it is clear to me that the way I conduct myself by dress, speech, and overall conduct in these times before my trial by fire will be watched with a close eye by everyone, especially the Senior NCO's. To be fair this is the military, my conduct, dress, etc. will always be watched from now on.
> 
> What I am asking of Milnet.ca is for any personal advice on this situation. Everything is an asset here, and I assure all of you that all replies will be considered and heavily weighed upon. Perhaps if the situation is to be repeated in the future, they will be passed along. I give credit where credit is due, I assure all of you that I will not claim any of your ideas as my own for future reference. I swore allegiance to the Queen, Canada, its citizens and their interests, my intentions here are to learn and to do my best to fit into a magnificent system, and to assist others to succeed and do the same.
> 
> The way I tend to view things is like this:
> 
> The military will do absolutely fine with or without me, I am not a special character, I am just a man. That being said, I believe if someone else can accomplish a task then to some degree, whether for better or worse, I should be able to accomplish it as well. I accommodate to the system of the military, not the other way around. If in my career I show military intelligence, put my best foot forward, then perhaps after a long and dedicated career I my have the opportunity to put my opinion on the table. The bottom line here is that I know very little, and as a post I read a while ago put it "I don't even know how to lace my boots right."
> 
> However the point is I can learn. Knowledge and a willingness to learn is one of the best tools anyone can have, among other things, especially when given for free. When someone speaks to me with the intention to teach, I shut up, pay full attention, and always keep what they say in mind.
> 
> I will be put through my paces through training, that is just the way it is, and I am fairly certain even more so because of my situation. I am a firm believer that all things desired and given must be earned. I was very fortunate to have this opportunity and I do not wish to embarrass the people who decided it was my opportunity to have.
> 
> With that being said I am a people first type of leader and a team player, and I must give thanks to the men and women of Soldiers of Fitness Boot camp who helped me cultivate that style of thinking. I must recommend that program to anyone considering any sort of career that involves leadership.
> 
> This post went much longer than anticipated to which I apologize, and I appreciate your time reading this, and look forward to any and all responses.
> 
> Thank you.



Ferrcrissakes.... don't think too much.


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## ModlrMike

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> My first word of advice would be to closely follow the principles of military writing:
> 
> Accuracy
> Brevity
> Clarity
> Relevance
> Logic
> 
> My intent is not to insult you but I did find it a little difficult to ascertain the specific advice you are seeking.  My assumption is you are seeking wisdom on how you should conduct yourself differently as an untrained 2nd Lieutenant vice an untrained Officer Cadet (or the expectations of your superiors, subordinates and peers).  The simple answer is - no difference.  You already seem to have some sense of what will be expected of you.
> 
> A memorable quote from one of the Warrants instructing on my Phase 2  (decades ago) to the number of DEO 2nd Lts (as opposed to the remainder of us who were OCdts from OCTP) was " . . . 2nd Lts are just thick OCdts".
> 
> _edited to correct typo_



I would agree completely with the above. I can only add the old saying "two ears, one mouth - to be used in that ratio".


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## hauger

I'm pretty sure the recruiting centre made a mistake.  Are you going to St. Jean for your course?  Here's the thing, 2Lt is a Commissioned rank, where Ocdt is not.  Here's what I think happened:

- You're a DEO hire (you have a degree).  That entitles you to enter, after basic training, as a 2Lt.

- As a DEO hire, you are supposed to be signed up as an Ocdt, but paid at the rate of 2Lt.  If you complete basic training, you are then promoted to 2Lt retroactive to the date you signed on the dotted line.

- Your recruiting staff probably saw the bit about you being a 2Lt effective your hire date and assumed that meant your a 2Lt.

The simple fact is, if you don't have a commission, or one hasn't been ordered for you, you shouldn't be wearing the rank of 2Lt.  It's something that will get sorted out really quickly at St. Jean, so I wouldn't worry too much about it right now, but it would be worth mentioning to someone.


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## JesseWZ

He is a reservist, doing a weekend fall BMQ. Their entry plans are different.


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## hauger

Fair, but 2Lt is still a commissioned rank.  No commission = no 2Lt.


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## Michael OLeary

hauger said:
			
		

> The simple fact is, if you don't have a commission, or one hasn't been ordered for you, .....





			
				hauger said:
			
		

> Fair, but 2Lt is still a commissioned rank.  No commission = no 2Lt.



Are you aware that being presented a Commissioning Scroll is not the actual act of being commissioned?


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## Redeye

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Are you aware that being presented a Commissioning Scroll is not the actual act of being commissioned?



I'd be in trouble if it was.  I still don't have mine, should have gotten it in 2005.


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## hauger

Yes, I'm aware of that.  I'm also aware that the commission is not granted until successful completion of the basic training course (even if it's post dated to before when the course began).  Listen, I don't really care if this guy wears the rank of 2lt or not, but as an untrained hire he should be going through basic as a Ocdt.  Whatever though, if his unit wants to do it this way, that's their call.


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## Pusser

Redeye said:
			
		

> I'd be in trouble if it was.  I still don't have mine, should have gotten it in 2005.



Ask your Chain of Command to request it from the Director of Honours and Recognition (DH&R).


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## Pusser

hauger said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm aware of that.  I'm also aware that the commission is not granted until successful completion of the basic training course (even if it's post dated to before when the course began).  Listen, I don't really care if this guy wears the rank of 2lt or not, but as an untrained hire he should be going through basic as a Ocdt.  Whatever though, if his unit wants to do it this way, that's their call.



Going through basic training as an OCdt/NCdt is by no means universal.  About half of my Reg Force course were 2Lts and there were two captains.


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## Eowyn

hauger said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm aware of that.  I'm also aware that the commission is not granted until successful completion of the basic training course (even if it's post dated to before when the course began).  Listen, I don't really care if this guy wears the rank of 2lt or not, but as an untrained hire he should be going through basic as a Ocdt.  Whatever though, if his unit wants to do it this way, that's their call.



The Army Reserve can be different.  There are quite a few officers enrolled as 2Lts with their commission before ever taking a single military course.


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## hauger

People enrol and are promoted immediately to the rank of Capt. frequently because for all purposes they are MOC qualified.  Examples are Doctors and Lawyers.  After Basic, they do some military familiarization and head off to do the job they already know how to do.

It took me all of 5 minutes to find DAOD 5031-8 (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5031-8-eng.asp) which spells out some officer development milestones in very general terms.  More pertinent is CFAO 11-06 (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/011-06-eng.asp) which is pretty clear about enrolment to Ocdt, however, an applicant can be enrolled and immediately commissioned to the rank of 2Lt or higher **IF** the applicant _ " possesses special qualifications gained through civilian or former military training or experience, shall be enrolled in the rank of officer cadet and may immediately be commissioned in the rank of second lieutenant and promoted to such rank or granted such acting rank as is authorized by NDHQ."_  |This is where Doctors, Lawyers, CFR's all come in with the higher rank.

Otherwise....Ocdt it is until such time as he graduates from basic training.

So, unless you can sell to someone that a degree in psychology = "special qualifications", someone screwed up and the applicant should be wearing the Ocdt strap for his time in basic.  Usually there's some pretty strong push back from the 2Lts out there that know deep down they shouldn't be wearing that bar (I knew quite a few CEOTP's that insisted they were 2lt's).


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## Blackadder1916

hauger said:
			
		

> It took me all of 5 minutes to find DAOD 5031-8 (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5031-8-eng.asp) which spells out some officer development milestones in very general terms.  *More pertinent is CFAO 11-06* (http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/cfa-oaf/011-06-eng.asp) which is pretty clear about enrolment to Ocdt,  . . . . .
> 
> Otherwise....Ocdt it is until such time as he graduates from basic training.
> 
> So, unless you can sell to someone that a degree in psychology = "special qualifications", someone screwed up and the applicant should be wearing the Ocdt strap for his time in basic.  Usually there's some pretty strong push back from the 2Lts out there that know deep down they shouldn't be wearing that bar (I knew quite a few CEOTP's that insisted they were 2lt's).



Perhaps if you had taken a little more time than the five minutes you would have realized that the references you provided are not applicable to the situation as described by the OP.  DAOD 5031-8, as you have already indicated, only discusses general requirements as relating to development periods, not requirements for promotion.  CFAO 11-16 . . . well, the title says it all “Commissioning Policy – Officers – *Regular Force*”.  The OP is in the Militia (oops, sorry) Primary Reserve.  Perhaps you should have found the CFAOs that deal with that component - CFAO 49-12 Promotion Policy - Officers - Primary Reserve which states:


> INITIAL RANK
> 
> 5. The rank to be granted on transfer to or enrolment in the Primary Reserve is prescribed in CFAO 49-10.



CFAO 49-10 Terms Of Service - Officers - Primary Reserve includes the following in its Annex A



> RANK ON ENROLMENT
> 
> 9. An officer applicant shall be enrolled in the Primary Reserve in the rank of officer cadet and *may be promoted on the same day to a higher rank in accordance with Appendix 3*.



Appendix 3 is a table titled “RANK FOLLOWING ENROLMENT” that would be a pain for me to recreate here but the line serial for the entry plan that (I assume) the OP enrolled under indicates the qualifications needed for immediate promotion to 2nd Lt from OCdt on enrolment.



> 5 Direct Entry other than in Serial 9.     An applicable degree for the desired classification.



By my interpretation of the “applicable” references (_though there may be other directives, CANFORGENS, or command policies that modify them_) no one screwed up, no one deliberately did  anything contrary to regulations and the OP is not wearing a rank which he shouldn’t be wearing.  Does it clash with sometimes narrow Regular Force sensibilities (I’m assuming you’re Reg Force) about appropriate rank and qualifications?  Perhaps, but he is in the “mo” and as stated in CFAO 49-12:



> 2. The Primary Reserve promotion policy governing officers is patterned on the policy applicable to the Regular Force but is *modified to accommodate the different conditions in Primary Reserve activities*.


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## BadEnoughDudeRescueRonny

Eowyn said:
			
		

> The Army Reserve can be different.  There are quite a few officers enrolled as 2Lts with their commission before ever taking a single military course.



How is that even possible? I'm really dumbfounded as to how an officer can be commissioned without having undergone any training.


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## Maxadia

BadEnoughDude said:
			
		

> How is that even possible? I'm really dumbfounded as to how an officer can be commissioned without having undergone any training.



Because the entire training system in the military doesn't just involve Basic.  If someone has some previous education qualifications that warrant a higher rank upon enrollment, then why not make it more attractive to recruit those people?

For myself, I would be interested in know some examples of qualifications, outside the realm of medical or legal, that would qualify someone for a higher rank than OCdt.  Any certain types of degrees?  Former management experience of x number of years?  Previous completion of a Basic course?  

Appendix 3 is kind of ambiguous, and for good reason - to allow the CO more flexibility.


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