# Canada's Black Watch (history - merged)



## RoyalHighlander

Short History
While the American Civil War and the creation of a large American Federal Army were creating a necessity of establishing a united Canada, Canadian citizens were demanding the creation of local militia units to guarantee the fundamental rights of British North America. Montrealers were no exception, and early in 1862 the 5th Battalion Royal Light Infantry, the forbear of The Black Watch Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada, came into existence. From the beginning in 1862, Canada‘s senior Highland Regiment, has been privileged to serve Canada in its obligations not only to the Empire and Commonwealth, but also to international organizations such as NATO and the United Nations.

The Black Watch of Canada‘s birth and growth is thus analogous to that of the Parent Regiment, which was formed in 1739 to guarantee peace in the highlands of Scotland and eventually to fight for Monarch and Country in conflicts throughout the world. It is therefore not surprising that both Regiments share a common heritage and spirit and a distinctive highland dress. The tartan of the Black Watch and the Royal Stewart tartan of its pipers, are known the world over as hallmarks of outstanding service in peace and war.

Although members of the Regiment served side by side with the Black Watch of Scotland in the Boer War, the formal alliance between Regiments did not occur until 1905. The great battles of World War I and World War II served to strengthen the alliance, and constant liaison and exchanges of officers and other ranks are fitting expressions of our wish to maintain this valuable affiliation. 

During World War I, 11,954 officers and enlisted men fought in the three battalions of the Canadian Regiment, winning twenty-six battle honours. Of those who served, 2,163 were killed, 6,014 were wounded and 821 were decorated. Six of the decorated members were awarded the Victoria Cross.

During World War II, the Canadian Regiment joined with battalions of the Black Watch from all parts of the Commonwealth in the struggle to defeat the Axis Powers. The Regiment first saw action at Dieppe, where it‘s "C" Company and Mortar Platoon were an essential element of the raid. Landing in Normandy shortly after D-Day, the Black Watch participated in some thirty battle actions throughout France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany. Members of the Regiment won 211 honours and awards for the campaign. 

The designation "3rd Battalion" has now been removed from the Militia Unit and The Black Watch (RHR) of Canada has reverted to its traditional role as being a Militia Regiment in Canada‘s Armed Forces. In August 1992, the Regiment was granted the Freedom of the City of Montreal. The towns of Ormstown and Huntingdon, Quebec granted the Regiment the Freedom of their cities in 1997 and 1998, respectively. 

And in the fall of 1999, the City of Verdun, Quebec, bestowed the Freedom of the City upon the Regiment. Verdun has provided many Black Watch soldiers from the First War onwards. 





Today the Black Watch is a modern infantry battalion providing trained soldiers to augment regular force units and to aid civil authorities in times of crises. Currently, the Regiment has soldiers involved in peacekeeping activities in the former Yugoslavia. To fufill these tasks, the soldiers undergo extensive infantry and more specialized training.


Battle Honours (43)
EARLY 

SOUTH AFRICA, 1899, 1900 

THE GREAT WAR

Ypres, 1915, 1917 
VIMY, 1917 
Gravenstafel 
Arleux 
ST. JULIEN 
Scarpe, 1917, 1918 
Festubert, 1915 
Hill 70 
MOUNT SORREL 
PASSCHENDAELE 
SOMME, 1916 
AMIENS 
Pozieres 
Drocourt-Queant 
Flers-Courcelette 
Hindenburg Line 
Thiepval 
CANAL DU NORD 
Ancre Heights 
PURSUIT TO MONS 
Ancre, 1916 
FRANCE AND FLANDERS, 1915-1918 
ARRAS, 1917, 1918 

World War Two

BOURGUEBUS RIDGE 
Woensdrecht 
FAUBOURG DE VAUCELLES 
South Beveland 
VERRIERES RIDGE -- TILLY-LA-CAMPAGNE 
WALCHEREN CAUSEWAY 
THE RHINELAND 
Falaise 
THE HOCHWALD 
Clair Tizon 
Xanten 
FORTE DE LA LONDE 
The Rhine 
Dunkirk, 1944 
Groningen 
Antwerp-Turnhout Canal 
OLDENBURG 
THE SCHELDT 
NORTH-WEST EUROPE, 1944-1945 


  Copyright © 2003 The Black Watch (RHR) of Canada - All rights reserved.


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## RoyalHighlander

THE STORY OF THE RED HACKLE

Since 1795 the soldiers of the 42nd have worn a red feather or "hackle" in their bonnets, being in this respect distinguished from all the other Highland regiments. The following is the story of the "glorious old red heckle", as told by Lieutenant-Colonel Wheatley, who, we believe, had his information directly from those who took part in the exploit on account of which the Black Watch is entitled to wear the plume. 

In December 1794, when the Forty-Second were quartered at Thuyl, as above mentioned, they received orders for the night of the 31st to mark upon Bommell, distant some miles on the opposite side of the river Waal, which they reached by four o‘clock on the morning of 1st January 1795. Here they were joined by a number of other regiments, and lay on their arms until daybreak, when they attacked the French army, and drove them across the river on the ice. The British held their position on the banks of the river until the evening of the 3d, when (the French having been reinforced) a partial retreat took place early on the morning of the 4th. The British retired upon the village of Guildermalson, where the 42d, with a number of other regiments, halted, and formed up to cover the retreat through the village. The French cavalry, however, cut through the retreating picquets, and made their way up to the regiments stationed at the village, where they were met and repulsed, and a number of them taken prisoners. Two field-pieces were placed in front of the village to protect the retreat of the picquets; but instead of resisting the charge of cavalry, they (the picquets) retreated to the rear of the village, leaving their guns in possession of the French, who commenced dragging them off. An A.D.C. (Major Rose) ordered Major Dalrymple, commanding the 42nd, to charge with his regiment, and retake the guns; which was immediately done, with the loss of 1 man killed and 3 wounded. The guns were this rescued and dragged in by the 42d, the horses having been disabled and the harness cut.

There was little or no notice taken of this affair at the time, as all was bustle; but after their arrival in England, it was rumored that the 42d were to get some distinctive badge for their conduct in retaking the guns on the 4th of January; but the nature of the honor was kept a profound secret. On the 4th of June 1795, as the regiment, then quartered at Royston, Cambridgeshire, was out on parade to fire three rounds in honor of his Majesty‘s birthday, the men were surprised and delighted when a large box was brought on to the field, and a red feather distributed to each soldier. This distinctive ornament has ever since adorned the otherwise funereal headdress of the old Black Watch.

In 1822, from a mistaken direction in a book of dress for the guidance of the army, some of the other Highland regiments concluded that they also had a right to wear "a red vulture feather". The 42d, however, remonstrated, and their representations at headquarters called forth the following memorandum:-

"For Officers commanding Highland Regiments.

"Horse Guards, 20th Aug, 1822.
"The red vulture feather prescribed by the recent regulations for Highland regiments is intended to be used exclusively by the Forty-Second Regiment: other Highland corps will be allowed to continue to wear the same description of feather that may have been hitherto in use.

"H. Torrens, Adjutant-General".

CANADIAN BLACK WATCH

At Vimy Ridge in April 1917--a battle always associated with the Canadian forces--their Divisional Commander told the 13th Battalion that " not a battalion of The Black Watch could deserve better to wear the Red Hackle than this battalion." The right to wear the Hackle was granted to The Black Watch of Canada during the war.


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## RoyalHighlander

Regular Force - Our 1st and 2nd Battalions
In the inter-war years Canada had made do with a minuscule force of between three and four thousand men. Their job was little more than to train the Militia both for direct national defence and for the tasks associated with the provision of expeditionary forces overseas should the mother country ask for assistance and should Canada decide to answer its call. In 1947, however, permanent armed forces of some 25,000 men in peace-time were formed. Of these, 2,299 officers and 13,586 other ranks were to be in the Active Force of the army. This army was no longer to be merely a trainer of the Militia but would be available for more swift-moving international events to which Canada might have to respond. While the Militia remained the larger force numerically, its training would no longer be the first priority of the Regular Army.

The formation and reinforcement of NATO in 1949-1951, and the beginning of the conflict in Korea in 1950 added further urgency to the peace-time armed forces of Canada which were expanded in these contexts, and in the wider one of the "cold war", to over 120,000 personnel. Of these, some 5,400 officers and 44,600 other ranks were in the Army.

Canada‘s Armed Forces were completely reorganized at the end of World War II. When NATO was formed for Western Europe and the Korean War, the forces were expanded, resulting in the creation of three additional infantry regiments in the regular force. The Black Watch (RHR) of Canada was one of these regiments, with two regular battalions. From 1953-1970, these battalions saw service in Korea, in Germany with the NATO forces, and regular tours of duty with the UN Peacekeeping Force in Cyprus.

Disaster struck the regiment in 1969. IN that year it was decided to combine the resources of six existing Regular Force regiments to form three regiments of three battalions each. The seniority of The Black Watch in the order of battle as a regular force unit only went back as far as 1953 in an unbroken lineage and therefore suffered under the government ax. The 1st and 2nd Battalions were reduced to nil strength and the combined manpower was amalgamated to form the new 2nd Battalion of the Royal Canadian Regiment on 1 July 1970. Once again the regiment was survived by its Militia battalion, the 3rd at the time, in Montreal.

Former members of these two Regular Force Battalions still play a very strong role in Regimental life to this day and continue to wear the Red Hackle proudly. Their legacy is embodied in the strength of the Black Watch Association, and in particular the Atlantic Branch, which still draws over a thousand members at regularly held reunions.

See A Short History of the Regiment




 Copyright © 2003 The Black Watch (RHR) of Canada - All rights reserved.


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## RoyalHighlander

The Black Watch is the oldest highland regiment in Canada. Volunteers have served since the regiment‘s inception in Montreal on January 31st, 1862 as 5th Battalion, Royal Light Infantry. The rise of American military strength during the Civil War concerned Canada. The government authorized formation of militia regiments. Each of six Montreal Scottish chieftains responded by raising an infantry company for the 5th Battalion. Eventually, eight companies were raised for border service. Since then, thousands of Canadian citizens have served in the Black Watch. 

In addition to Canadian border security, they have fought in the Boer War, WW1, WW2, Korean War; bolstered NATO operations in Europe and UN peacekeeping worldwide; and provided aid-to-the-civil-power, most recently during the Quebec and Eastern Ontario ice storm disaster. 


In the year 2000, the Black Watch battalion earned the distinction of being selected as the best unit in Québec‘s 34 Brigade.
To celebrate this lengthy service and sacrifice of kith and kin, The Black Watch will mark its 140th anniversary at various events throughout the country.


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## Michael Dorosh

One is tempted to add several not so flattering elements of the Black Watch history - 

a) on the way to Dieppe, a Royal Highlander priming hand grenades aboard a troop ship accidentally detonated one (a not so difficult mistake to make, unfortunately, when concerning the No. 36 hand grenade),killing and wounding several Canadians

b) at Verrierres Ridge, the battalion‘s  fighting strength was practically wiped out during a head long attack over open ground and into the teeth of enemy tanks and machine guns

c) the Black Watch was wiped out again on Black Friday, 13 October 1944, while attacking over hundreds of yards of open beet fields near Woensdrecht at the neck of the South Beveland peninsula.  One company of 90 men was reduced to 4.  Canadian officers later found it impossible to walk along the railway embankment there without stepping on the dead of the Black Watch.

d) at Walcheren on 31 Oct 1944, Charlie Company of the Black Watch was shot up trying to cross the 1600 metre long causeway.  The task was passed on to the Calgary Highlanders, who had to try twice - the second time with decent artillery support - to cross over.  They eventually created a bridgehead, but it was lost after the Maisonneuves relieved them on the island.

e) by war‘s end, the Black Watch had suffered the highest casualty rate of any infantry battalion in NW Europe.  They suffered 1777 casualties in 10 months, or an average of 177 a month. By way of contrast, the Chaudieres, who landed one month earlier than the Watch, had the lowest monthly casualty rate with 92 a month (or 1014 in 11 months of action). A battalion at full strength had approximately 801 officers and men, with just over half of those being in the rifle companies where the most casulaties were suffered.  (Stats from THE LONG LEFT FLANK by Jeffrey Williams)

In many cases, the brigade mates of the Black Watch (Calgary Highlanders and Regt de Maisonneuve) had to pick up the slack in the wake of the many disasters that befell the RHC.  If the Second Division was the "hard luck" outfit of the Canadian Army, one could make a convincing case that the Black Watch was the "hard luck" outfit of the Second Division.

Not to denigrate the bravery of the Watch, but suicidal frontal attacks seem to have been the order of the day on many occasions.


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## RoyalHighlander

points well made. the Watch had a reputation of never retreating, and did , at the cost of many lifes be part of some baddly planned assults. But the Watch never shirked thier duties.
One of the members was a founder of the Devils Brigade, he jusr recently passed away Here is his obit from the Daily telegraph


Colonel Johnny Bourne 
(Filed: 11/02/2003) 


Colonel Johnny Bourne, who has died aged 84, commanded a force of Canadian and American soldiers in southern Europe; later, in the face of separatism, he nurtured the loyalty of Quebecers to the Crown. 

As a battalion commander of the Canadian/United States First Special Service Force, Bourne saw his first action in Italy in January 1944 on Mount Majo, south east of Monte Cassino. After fighting their way to its summit, his men held out against a series of determined counter attacks. When ammunition ran low, their training in German weapons paid off as they poured fire from captured MG42s into the enemy. Their practice of attacking with blackened faces at night led the Germans to nickname them "Black Devils". 

In a further month of bitter weather Bourne led his men in clearing stubborn enemy rearguards from the mountain slopes until the force had virtually eliminated opposition east of the Rapido River. On February 1, they landed at Anzio and entered the line next day. From then until the breakout from the bridgehead took place, the lightly equipped force, which was roughly the same strength as a British brigade, held a seven-mile front along the Mussolini Canal, almost a quarter of the entire bridgehead perimeter. Denied a normal defence in depth, Bourne kept the enemy off balance by active patrolling and large scale raids out into the Pontine flats. Although the inevitable German counter attacks failed to breach their defences, these resulted in heavy casualties. 

The force attacked north-eastwards toward the Via Appia, then led an armoured task force toward Rome. Five miles below the city, Bourne received orders to seize six main bridges across the Tiber. Driving toward the central railway station, his battalion‘s attack was hampered at first by an exuberant population and then by stiff enemy resistance. Thanks to his determination and skill in forcing the pace of the attack, the bridges were secured. 

Bourne next led his battalion ashore by rubber boat during the Allied landings in the south of France. As part of the force, they then began a series of rapid advances along the Riviera coast which in three weeks brought them almost to the Italian border, a distance of 45 miles. Pushing eastward on foot against light opposition, they drove aside stiffened resistance in the mountains behind Nice. 

Three days later, their patrols entered Menton, only two miles from the international boundary. There the German 34th Division was firmly ensconced in the fortifications of the Little Maginot Line, from which the French had defeated Italian attacks in 1941. Aided by the fire of warships, Bourne and his men took part in the reduction of these forts one by one. When the force was disbanded in December, Bourne commanded a Canadian reinforcement training battalion at Aldershot, then returned home to civilian life. 

There was some resentment among the force‘s Canadian members that, while the Americans‘ contribution was recognised, there were no Military Crosses or Distinguished Conduct Medals for them. 

The feelings of the Canadians were not assuaged by a poor Hollywood film which was made about them in 1968, entitled The Devil‘s Brigade; Bourne‘s innate modesty was offended by it. 

John Gilbert Bourne was born in Montreal on March 25 1918, and educated at Selwyn House and Westmount High School. At McGill University he became a keen skier and a member of the Quebec junior golf team. 

In 1937, Bourne was commissioned in the Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada, and after mobilisation was sent with them to England in 1940. He was sent back to Canada as an instructor in 1942, then volunteered for the 2nd Canadian Parachute Battalion, which became the Canadian component of the First Special Service Force formed at Helena, Montana, under an American, Colonel Robert T Frederick. Although the Canadians took a sterner view of discipline, the officers and men of both armies successfully intermingled. 

Highly trained in mountain warfare and other "commando" skills, the force was intended to take part in operations in snow-covered areas in Europe, the objectives being the Romanian oil-fields and hydro-electric plants in northern Italy and Norway. Operation Plough (conceived by an Englishman, Geoffrey Pyke) caught the imagination of both Winston Churchill and Lord Louis Mountbatten, but foundered on such practicalities as lack of airlift. Nevertheless it was kept in being for use in the Mediterranean theatre. 

Shortly after joining, Bourne was appointed to command the 2nd battalion of its 3rd Regiment, which took part in the unopposed landing on the supposedly Japanese-held island of Kiska in the Aleutian Islands. 

After the war, he rejoined the militia battalion of the Black Watch and was appointed Colonel of the regiment in 1968. With the disbandment of its regular battalions in 1973, he became its honorary Colonel, which brought an enduring friendship with its Colonel-in-Chief, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother. 

In civilian life, Bourne was the president of a major construction company and was engaged actively in charitable works. For 17 years, he served on the National Council of the Duke of Edinburgh‘s Award Scheme and was responsible for organising the programme in Quebec and for enabling 15,000 young people of the province to participate. To raise such interest in a fundamentally British scheme during a time of anti-English-Canadian political upheaval in the province was a considerable feat. 

In 1985, he was appointed CVO. 

Johnny Bourne, who died on December 8, married, in 1942, Joan Elspeth Dawes; she survives him with their son and daughter. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## sgtdixon

Royal Highlander
I recently had the pleasure of renting a kilt for my Grade 12 Graduation and i thought i‘d ask you, would it be improper for me to wear the Black Watch tartan? I chose it because it A is close to my Clan tartan(Keith) and because My Grandfather was with the Black Watch for a time
Any help would be great


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## Michael Dorosh

There is no "Black Watch" tartan.  It is properly called Government Tartan and is worn by soldiers in the employ of the Crown.  If you‘re in the Canadian Army, I think that means you qualify...


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## RoyalHighlander

> There is no "Black Watch" tartan. It is properly called Government Tartan and is worn by soldiers in the employ of the Crown. If you‘re in the Canadian Army, I think that means you qualify...


Well thats debatable, yes its called the Govt  Tartan,or Sett but if you ever do a search for the "Black Watch Tartan" you‘ll see what you get. Its also known as the Watch Tartan too. And you dont even need to be in the military to wear it either.

 http://www.men-in-kilts.com/mill/tartans-b/black-watch.html 
 http://www.angelfire.com/biz3/SolidFashionGuide/blackwatchlinks.html 

Lt. Col. Ian McCulloch comments on the so-called "Tartan of the Black Watch Regiment": 

"Just a friendly point from a former commanding officer of the Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada. The tartan‘s name is commonly "Black Watch" or more appropriately the Government Sett or Tartan (when I say government I mean British). The tartan doesn‘t belong to the Regiment, it belongs to Her Majesty and she grants the right to various regiments around the world to wear it. 

"The first, of course to wear early variations of it was The Black Watch of Scotland, but many other fine regiments are also entitled to wear the British "Government Sett" including the Canadian Black Watch, The Calgary Highlanders, The Lanark & Renfrew Scottish, and the now defunct PEI Highlanders, all right here in Canada. The Black Watch tartan is also very much their regimental tartan and not the sole right or possession of the Imperial Black Watch.


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## greeves

> they have fought in the Boer War, WW1, WW2, Korean War


Perhaps I am nit-picking - but I believe that while the Black Watch served in Korea, like the Queen‘s Own, they arrived after the cessation of hostilities.  No disrespect to this fine regiment intended...just wanted to clarify.


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## patrick666

I was just looking through the photo gallery and saw a picture from Korea with the comment, "could be members of the Black Watch". Now my question is, who or what exactly were the Black Watch?


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## Danjanou

The Black Watch is the more commonly used name for the Royal Highland Regiment. 

There are actually two such regiments, the parent British one and the Canadian one. The British regiment was the first unit raised from the Highlands of Scotland in the 17th century. Until then only Lowland Scots were recruited into regiments. Originally it was the 42nd Regiment of Foot.

The term Blackwatch refers to the dark tartan that the regiment wore  and/or the idea that they as loyal government soldiers were recruited to "watch" over the Highlands.

The Canadian Regiment dates form the late 19th Century (Michael will be on here in a minute witht he exact dates and corrections, I‘m typing from memory as I‘m at work) and is one of the oldest Canadian Militia Regiments. It‘s based in Montreal.

During the expansion of the Canadian Army for the Korean conflict and for service in West Germany,in the 1950‘s three "new" regular infantry regiments were "created." The Queens Own Rifles, The Canadian Guards and The Royal Highland Regiment of Canada. 

Initially all three regiments were made up of drafts from the militia including the regiments listed: Guards, QORS and RHR. The RHR was made up of called up volunteer contingents from the Nova Scotia Highlanders, the RHR, 48 Highlanders, and Seaforths (probably missed a couple)

THE RHR had two regular Bns and served in West Germany and in Korea toward the end of the conflict there. Home station was initially Aldershot Nova Scotia and then later Gagetown.

The regular Bns of the RHR, and the other two regiments, were reduced to nil strength with the cut backs instituted by Trudeau in the 1970‘s (1972?)


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## Michael Dorosh

The short answer was "the buggers who kept getting wiped out in WW II while the Calgary Highlanders carried the 5th Brigade load".     

Danjanou needs no corrections from me, he has well stated the case.  Their distinctions of dress include the Red Hackle worn in the headdress from the late 1700s by the Imperial regiment, replacing the cap badge in 1822 and adopted by the Canadian regiment after the First World War in honour of their splendid conduct (the Canadian Black Watch raised several battalions for World War One, including the 13th, 42nd and 73rd).

The proper name of the Black Watch tartan is "Government Tartan", though it is almost universally referred to as Black Watch tartan anyway.  The idea of a tartan belonging to one specific group never existed until the kilt was banned in Scotland following Culloden, and the only troops permitted to wear it were (British) Government soldiers recruited in the Highlands.  After the ban on kilts was lifted, clan tartans evolved - before that time, the number of colours in your kilt was a recognition of your rank and/or wealth status in the clan.  Poor clansmen could probably afford two colours only, while a chief may have many more.

Talk about going off on a tangent...

I believe the regular force battalions were reduced in 1970.  Their final parade was in July - the majority of the men went into the RCR if I recall correctly, including their pipe band.






Final Parade of the Regular Black Watch in Canada.


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## Garry

Germans called them the "ladies from **** ", didn‘t they? (despite Michael‘s tongue in cheek reply, they were well respected)

In the UFI column, the last (to my knowledge anyway) serving reg force black watch was in CFB Gagetown. I ran into him from time to time in the late ‘70‘s. He was employed as the Base Commanders driver when the Reg‘t was disbanded, and since he was supernumery at the time, refused to take the hat badge off. As he had friends in high places (the Base Commander) he wasn‘t pushed too hard, and eventually wasn‘t pushed at all. When I returned to Gagetown in the early ‘80‘s he was gone.

Cheers-Garry


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## Danjanou

High praise from the good Mr. Dorosh, I’ll think I’ll take it, thanks Michael

Any way now that I’m at home I can fill in the gaps. According to my trusty copy of  * DUCIMUS, The Regiments of The Canadian Infantry *

Royal Highland Regiment of Canada (Blackwatch) 
4th in order of precedence for militia Infantry regiments
Formed in 1862 in Montreal from 6 volunteer militia rifle companies
43 Battle Honours including South Africa 
6 Victoria Cross Winners
3 Bns in the CEF in WWI (13th, 42nd & 73rd)
(Michael has already covered their WWII exploits)

May 4, 1951 1st Canadian Highland Bn formed for NATO service in W. Germany from Militia volunteer contingents from the North Nova Scotia Highlanders, Royal Highland Regiment of Canada, 48th Highlanders, Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, and the Canadian Scottish (see I did forget one earlier). 2nd Canadian Highland Bn was formed April 10, 1952. 

Both of these units re-designated 1st and 2nd Bns The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment of Canada) October 16, 1953. The Militia Bn was at that time re-designated the 3rd Bn. regimental Depot established at Camp Aldershot Nova Scotia

1st Bn initially served in 27 Brigade in West Germany and then back in Canada before going overseas again to serve with 4CMBG. 2nd Bn were sent to 25 Brigade in Korea in October 1953 and remained there for a year before coming back to the regimental depot at Aldershot. Later they went to Germany for a tour.In 1958 the regiment was moved from Aldershot to Gagetown.

The regular regiment was reduced to nil strength effective July 1, 1970, members being transferred into 3rd Bn RCR. At that time the Militia Bn dropped the 3rd Bn prefix.

Garry I also heard about a couple of Blackwatch who were posted away from the Bn at the time of the reduction including an officer, and who by hook and/or crook managed to avoid rebadging. If it isn‘t true then it should be.


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## GhostRecce

Blackwatch parade square in Aldershot.

plus the monument


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## patrick666

I had no idea they were part of Canadian military history. Very interesting stuff, and thanks for the in-depth replies.

Michael, you said they were constantly being wiped out by germans during WW2.. Were they not an effective fighting force then? Do you know of any specific battles they fought in?

Don‘t tell me they wore the kilts to war too.


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## Art Johnson

Re Black Watch, you forgot the 48th Highlanders of Canada in your second mention of the units of the Highland Battalion. Michael I got the impression that the Black Watch only had one bad battle in WW II and I can‘t remember the name of the ridge. They were not the only ones to take a pasting, the RCR came out of the Gully Battle at Ortona with less than 200 all ranks, they may well have been under strength before they went in. I believe the Hasty Ps didn‘t do much better.


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## westernarmymember

The pictures referred to are of members of the Black Watch while serving in Korea. I posted them a short time ago. I have since received confirmation on the identities of the soldiers (one of them my Father) who were originally members of the Seaforth Highlanders. Glad to see it generate some discussion.


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## Art Johnson

Try this site for some interesting reading about Verrieres Ridge.

 http://www.valourandhorror.com/DB/CHRON/July_25_May.htm


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## Danjanou

I think Michael is referring to the battle of May-sur-Orne (25/07/44) in the Normandy campaign. The RHR took very heavy casualties trying to take an enemy held position with a frontal assault up a slope.

The CBC "documentary" The Valour and The Horror by the infamous McKenna brothers  a few years back covered the battle and with their particular anti military slant made it worse out than it probably was. Not to say the casualties weren‘t high though.

Ghost recce, know both that parade square and monument well.

Art, funny I did put them in my original post, but left them out when I was checking facts from the book for the second post. Sorry about that, now corrected.


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## westernarmymember

Interesting, thanks. I have been doing some research into the unit for a project I am working on for my Father. If anyone else has any info/sites (especially leading up to & during their deployment to Korea) I would be very interested. E-mail is also available.


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## Michael Dorosh

The Black Watch was wiped out again on Friday the 13th in October 1944 - Black Friday.  One company of 90 men was reduced to just 4!  They were attacking a railway embankment at the neck of the South Beveland Peninsula.  They had a tough time in Holland, not just Normandy.

By the way, the last Regular Force QOR dude served in Calgary into the 1980s; an MWO also supernumery, IIRC; I joined in 1987 and he was still a fixture here with his black badges.  I seem to recall he was not a transfer from the Toronto militia regiment, but an honest-to-God regular who never rebadged.  (The QOR were busted from a regular force regiment at about the same time as the Black Watch).

The kilt was banned in late 1939 as unsuitable for modern war; small quantities were taken to England (1/3 of Canada‘s infantry battalions in the fighting divisions in WW II were Highland or Scottish) for wear on leave or parades.

The Black Watch sent a company to Dieppe (to Blue Beach to fight alongside Toronto‘s Royal Regiment of Canada); on the boat over a grenade was incorrectly primed and killed a number of men, and then the ****  of the landings (Blue Beach was a devastating rout, 500+ Canadians were held off by only 60 Germans in concrete positions on top of a cliff).

The Watch landed in Normandy in July - Verrierres Ridge is the battle the other posters have correctly mentioned - 325 troops from the rifle companies went forward, 15 answered the roll the next day.

The battalion was reconstituted, fought with 2nd Division at Falaise in August, the September on the Channel Coast and into Belgium, then Black Friday in October.  No time to stop, though, they fought down the South Beveland Isthmus and sent a company across the Walcheren Causeway, which was repelled with terrible losses.

November to February was a quiet spell in the Nijmegen Salient, then the Rhineland fighting and into northern Holland and Germany in March and April 1945.

The Black Watch suffered more casualties than any other Canadian infantry battalion in NW Europe (excepting those that had also fought in Italy, as Art points out).


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## westernarmymember

You seem quite knowledgeable on the subject. An interest of yours?


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## pyro_208

I had a grandfather who was part of The Black Watch, He got shot a Vimy and gased at Ypres. In total I think the regiment holds 43 Battle Honours.


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## Danjanou

> You seem quite knowledgeable on the subject. An interest of yours?


Not really, but as the Military History Forum moderator I should at least be able to answer questions here and take 5 minutes to do research.


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## Spr.Earl

I know of Retired Sapper‘s when they joined went through the Black Watch Training Depot before moving on to Chilliwack for Engineer Trade‘s Training.


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## Steel Badger

Interesting point re the RHR of Canada

Since that awful moment in 1970 when the RHRofC was reduced to nil str (With the exception of the Rsv Bn); the Toronto Maple Leafs have failed to win the Stanley Cup.


Just something else we have to hate Trudeau and Hellyer for! >


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## a_majoor

> The kilt was banned in late 1939 as unsuitable for modern war; small quantities were taken to England (1/3 of Canada's infantry battalions in the fighting divisions in WW II were Highland or Scottish) for wear on leave or parades.



Highlanders wore kilts to battle until the Boer war, when Boer sharpshooters decided the coulourful kilts made excellent aim points. Either during the second Boer War or after, it became common for Highlanders to wear a leather "apron" over the kilt, both to provide a sort of camofllage function, and protect the fabric of the kilt when crawling around on the ground. (lying prone was not possible or practical as a fighting position until the advent of breech loading rifles).

While Kilts may no longer be considered suitable for modern war, Bagpipes still seem to make an appearence from time to time, during pre-training for ROTO 13 my platoon deployed a piper while acting as enemy force with salubrious effects on our stunned counterparts (getting piped in the pre dawn hours while in a defensive position would be rather unnerving....)


----------



## Michael Dorosh

a_majoor said:
			
		

> The kilt was banned in late 1939 as unsuitable for modern war; small quantities were taken to England (1/3 of Canada's infantry battalions in the fighting divisions in WW II were Highland or Scottish) for wear on leave or parades.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Highlanders wore kilts to battle until the Boer war, when Boer sharpshooters decided the coulourful kilts made excellent aim points. Either during the second Boer War or after, it became common for Highlanders to wear a leather "apron" over the kilt, both to provide a sort of camofllage function, and protect the fabric of the kilt when crawling around on the ground. (lying prone was not possible or practical as a fighting position until the advent of breech loading rifles).
> 
> While Kilts may no longer be considered suitable for modern war, Bagpipes still seem to make an appearence from time to time, during pre-training for ROTO 13 my platoon deployed a piper while acting as enemy force with salubrious effects on our stunned counterparts (getting piped in the pre dawn hours while in a defensive position would be rather unnerving....)
Click to expand...


And an exercise in Gagetown has what to do with modern war, exactly... 

Actually, the US Marines fielded a piper in Iraq; the military.com messageboard had a whole thread devoted to buying him a kilt.  I do believe the major wire services carried a story about him.  I doubt very much he was foolish enough to play into action.


----------



## Steel Badger

My Company Piper was on hand during EX SG 04. He played the COY in on the Coy Raid and on the blocking range. Apparently some Golf Callsign members of the landed gentry were quite offended and asking what relevance pipes had on a modern battlefield.

1. Morale of the troops 
2. Morlae of the troops, and;
3. Irritating those who pitch fits over such minor issues rather than why the COY did not possess the requisite number of SF kits, radios, 84's etc; not to mention adequate green fleet tpt.
4. Frightening the US Engineers attached to the Coy.

I would like to ask those gents what relevance they have carrying 81mm vice field guns?


----------



## the 48th regulator

In our Sgt's mess we still have a Black Watch veterans association hold meetings and a dinner.   Some show up to our parade on remembrance day.

And as an adder a very good friend and Piper from my regiment, actually went down south to teach the marines how to properly play the pipes.   pipertoad  can attest to that (remember when F.C went down) I think you were down there too right?

anhoo sorry to deviate from the topic, a shame what is happening too to the regiments on the other side of the pond.

Dileas

tess


----------



## bossi

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> And an exercise in Gagetown has what to do with modern war, exactly...
> 
> Actually, the US Marines fielded a piper in Iraq; the military.com messageboard had a whole thread devoted to buying him a kilt.   I do believe the major wire services carried a story about him.   I doubt very much he was foolish enough to play into action.



The Desert Rats also fielded a piper in Iraq - I've got a photo somewhere ...


----------



## pbi

Here is another theory I have read concerning the origin of the designation "Black Watch". It comes (IIRC) from a small book I have (somewhere...) titled " _Regiments at Waterloo _ " which I believe was published (Almarks?) in the early 1970's.

This version offers the following genesis.

The Highlands were known for various illiicit activities, including extortion or illegal taxation. One form which this extortion took was in demanding quantities of coarse meal, known as "black meal". The explanation further suggests this as the origin of the term "black mail" as a form of extortion. At any rate, the RHR was employed as a "Watch" to combat this illicit practice, thus winning the name "Black Watch".

I have no idea of the accuracy of this theory. Comments? Cheers.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

_Am Freiceadan Dubh_ baby....


----------



## Steel Badger

Black Watch......is actually a reference to the dark sett of the tartan........

As the regiment was raised to pilice the highlands... it was given a darker tartan to aid in concealment..(tho how about those red coats...)
Like being given the hunting sett of a family tartan.....


----------



## Kirkhill

The story I have heard most often is of the lads in the Dark Tartan being put on Watch over the Highlands, specifically the spaces between the roads that General Wade built to allow his slow, lethargic, cumbersome and ENGLISH flatfoot heavy infantry to get from point A to B.

As to the issue of Black Mail.  Mail originally meant any tax, often as in a toll for using a bridge, ford or road to speed your travel.  Some of my less civically inclined brethren dispensed with the need for the improvements and transportation and just issued a charge for safe passage.  Often the threat was from fellow members of the clan.  Brother Donal on accepting your donation would do his best to convince brother Hamish not to help himself to your cartload of wool heading to Germany.

Some of these Mails were approved by higher authority, not necessarily central, but had the force of law behind them.  Others were more entrepreneurial - and just as some entrepreneurs create Black Markets, others created Black Mails.

And on the subject of pipers at war.

When the Brit Commandos raided Narvik in Norway in 1940, their 2ic Maj Mad Jack Churchill played them ashore.  There was apparently a piper playing with Lord Lovatt's men when he assaulted either Dieppe or at Sword.  I have picture of a piper leading a platoon through Bocage country in Normandy, unit unidentified, no kilt worn.  And most recently, when the Black Watch deployed to back up the Fallujah assault a few of the Watch were killed and the base was under mortar and rocket fire.  To buck up spirits after a memorial service the CO requested a piper to play.  The Pipe Major took the job himself and parade the length and back of a bridge in plane sight of the enemy.  I wouldn't doubt but what there were a few threeps and screeks during his recital.

There is never a wrong time for the pipes.


----------



## Steel Badger

Ah weel, takin money from ra sassenach the noo......

Ye cannae call it ra crime, its ra national sport laddie!


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Kirkhill - at Sword Beach, Bill Millin played Lord Lovat ashore; the scene was immortailized in the film The Longest Day, but it really happened - see the book by the same name by Cornelius Ryan!


----------



## Veterans son

pyro_208 said:
			
		

> I had a grandfather who was part of The Black Watch, He got shot a Vimy and gased at Ypres. In total I think the regiment holds 43 Battle Honours.



My grandfather served with the Black Watch in WW1 also(He was in 13th Battalion, CEF).


----------



## Kirkhill

> Ah weel, takin money from ra sassenach the noo......
> 
> Ye cannae call it ra crime, its ra national sport laddie!



Nivver said it wuz Wull.  They're ay guid fur a wee bit spiling frae time tae time.  Aw in guid fun o' coorse. 

And Michael, thanks for the confirmation on Bill Millin.  But now you have reminded me of his name was it not spelt Milne?


----------



## Infanteer

Bagpipes seem like the most military of instruments....


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Bagpipes seem like the most military of instruments....



Ladies and Gentlemen, may I present....

Number 3500.

(Round of golf claps erupts from the Peanut Gallery).


----------



## Infanteer

You just wait - I'm expecting to get piped into my 4,000th post.... :warstory:


----------



## Veterans son

Infanteer said:
			
		

> You just wait - I'm expecting to get piped into my 4,000th post.... :warstory:



 8)


----------



## Michael OLeary

Back to the topic, rather than post count padding. ;-)

One historical explanation of the origin of the title "Black Watch":

The Black Watch: The Black Watch (Royal Highlanders). Through the 1st Battalion, as the 42nd Highlanders. From the dark tartan worn by the battalion on its organization in George II's reign--1739. "The Watch" (i.e., police), or "Highland Watch," a semi-military border force to keep the King's peace in the North of Scotland, was the original title of a force supplied by certain clans during the 17th Century. Each company wore its own clan tartan. When reorganized in 1725 in six Independent Companies they were uniformed in kilts of one pattern, a dark tartan, a combination in black, green, and blue, known as the "Government tartan." From that they were popularly called in the Highlands "The Black Watch", in Gaelic " Am Frieceadan Dubh." When, in 1739, the companies were brought together into a regiment of Highlanders, renumbered a little later as the "42nd" the popular sobriquet was transferred to the new corps. All other infantry regiments at the time wore red coats, waistcoats and breeches, and were spoken of in Scotland as the "Seidaran dearag" or "Red Soldiers." "The Black Watch" is now the official title of the regiment. - Edward Fraser and John Gibbons, Soldier and Sailor Words and Phrases, 1925


----------



## Danjanou

Adding to information on this esteemed regiments history (or just showing off the wealth of otherwise useless military trivia I've collected over the years, and how's that for post padding?) IIRC for a brief period the Blackwatch was originally the "43rd" Shortly after their incorporation as a Regiment another more senior unit left the OOB and they "moved up" one in the seniority list.


----------



## Kirkhill

Just to add to the tale,

Those independent companies, supplied mainly by the Campbell's, that were tasked with supplying the Watch after the '15 originally replaced the Cameronians, (One of ROJ's favourite units).  The Cameronians, a bunch of Lowland Presbyterians that were officially recognized as a formed unit after the protestant King William of Orange won the Battle of the Boyne, were not particularly welcomed by the Highland Catholics they were sent to look after.  Their reception may have had something to do with the treatment the Highlanders meted out to their families when the Highlanders were billeted on the guid folks of Ayrshire and Lanarkshire to keep them in line and suppress their seditious nonsense against the Catholic Stewarts - after the fashion of Louis's Dragonades.

Every history has another.


----------



## Caleix

Hello there,
    I've tried searching the websites search engine on the Regiment but couldn't come up for answers to a question of mine. I'm moving to Montreal in the near future and was wondering what the majority language spoke at the Regiment is, French or English. This is a concern for me because I've struggled through highschool trying to learn French and am not very..."accustomed" to speaking it properly. If anyone can tell me if its a 50:50 ratio of French and English spoke there or if it is different, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks, 
Caleix


----------



## CallOfDuty

Hey there Cailex.................came across this in the recruiting part of the Black Watch website..........

Requirements
a Canadian citizen or landed immigrant (conditions apply) 
at least 16 years old as of July 1 and must have parental permission if a minor 
have completed Grade 9 (Secondary III - Math, English, French) with 24 credits, or Canadian Provincial Government equivalency. 
in good physical health 
be of good character 
  

Cheers
Steve


----------



## Redeye

Caleix said:
			
		

> Hello there,
> I've tried searching the websites search engine on the Regiment but couldn't come up for answers to a question of mine. I'm moving to Montreal in the near future and was wondering what the majority language spoke at the Regiment is, French or English. This is a concern for me because I've struggled through highschool trying to learn French and am not very..."accustomed" to speaking it properly. If anyone can tell me if its a 50:50 ratio of French and English spoke there or if it is different, I would greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks,
> Caleix



Most Black Watch members I've met are anglophones, so you should be fine.


----------



## Lost_Warrior

Don't worry.  It's a 95% english regiment.  There are a couple of officers who are french, but the vast majority of the regiment is english.  

It's a good group of guys too, you're going to like them.


----------



## big bad john

Try this site: http://www.blackwatchcanada.com/en/index.htm


----------



## Caleix

Thanks a bunch fellas, one more question though, I'm in the West Nova Scotia Regiment right now as a Private, so can i just transfer to the Black Watch when i get to Montreal or do i have to redo all my testing? Cause I thought I could just transfer....

Many thanks,
Caleix


----------



## spoon man

Let your chain of command know what you plan to do, and you shouldn't have any problems. You won't have to redo your application.


----------



## Caleix

thankyou kindly

Caleix


----------



## George Wallace

If anyone is interested:

Hello all and happy holidays! Just a reminder that an encore presentation of Black Watch Massacre at Verrieres Ridge will air this Thursday night (December 21st) at 9pm on History Television in Canada (channel 522 on Star Choice).


----------



## time expired

Although I was RCEME, during my the early part of my career I kept running into members,of this for me,
Canadas finest inf. regt.First on leave in Copenhagen on those wonderful leaves that I remember very 
little about,unfortuneatly,then again in the bars in Soest,a great bunch of guys.Also I will never forget
the best army hockey games ever played between the Black Watch and the Ft. Chambley Huskies,the
 Watch always had their Pipes at the games and whenever they scored the pipes would break into The
Black Bear,unforgetable!.From Germany I was posted to Gagetown and of course met many old friends
from the Watch,I was lucky enough to be invited to the Trooping of the Colours for the Queen Mother
in 1967 all three Bns. on parade.Fortunatley I was not present for the final parade as I heard it was a
very sad ,angry, and tearful end to this proud Regiment.Thanks Mr.Trudeau for your arrogant disregard


for our military traditions.
          Thought it was all over for my connection with the Watch, but no, when I joined the Airborne 
Regt.in 1976 Col Fraser was the CO and Don Reekie the RSM. both former members of the Watch a
very Highland flavour in the mess pipers always present at mess dinners I really enjoyed serving with
these fine gentlemen.
           My last connection with this Regiment was as a civilian driver in Lahr after my retirement,I was 
tasked to pick up a WW1 vet at Le Bourget airport and escort him to the Commemoration services at
Vimy Ridge.It turned out that this gentleman was a member of the Black Watch,Regretfully I do not remember his name,he enlisted at the age of 15 and was 16 when he took part in the Vimy battle.
 We had only one official funtion to fullfil so we spent the rest of the time visiting his fallen comrades
all the way to Mons where the Regiment ended its war,as you can imagine it was a very emotional
journey for and as it turned out for me too,it ended as I mentioned in Mons,and in this small Belgian
town is a small museum in the Marie in which is a room dedicated to the Black Watch,well worth a  
visit if you are in the area.
                                Regards


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Operation Spring
I have been to the ridge where they got wiped out on the 25th july 44
It is important to note that this was at the same time the US was doign Cobra and our job was to keep the Germans busy.
A Company Commander, Major Phillip Griffen had to take over as the Lt. Col and his second were killed eariler that day.
The tanks were late so he had to advanced (did not want to lose the artillery)
We did not have enough air units.
These troops were new to war.
the Germans were not.
they held their fire until our boys were on top of them and then they let go with everything.
Bit more complex than that but still....
See Stacey vol 3 for a good overview and some of his most heartfelt writing (in regards to this eposide)

I have also been to Blue Beach/Puys where they landed at Dieppe, whoever decided on that beach had never been there and looked at arieal photos.
Puys was the worst day for a can infantry batt in ww2, the Black watch on the 25th was the 2nd worst.


----------



## Hawk

Kirkhill-better not mention the Campbells to any other clan!!! I'm a Cameron by birth-a cousin told my girl-chasing teen-age son-"she can nae be a Campbell". We don't hold grudges or anything-stems from the Campbells supporting the English at the Battle of Cullodin Moor in 1746.


Hawk


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Didn't the Cambells kill a bunch of McDonalds when they were staying at the Cambells castle and thats why their name is dirt? Thats the story I heard........


----------



## Hawk

Could well be. . .

All the Clans were blood-tirsty in one way or another. I heard a story where Lady Gordon invited all the Clan Chiefs to dinner and poisoned them. Sir Ewen Cameron is credited with killing the last wolf in Scotland. He's also said to have bitten out the throat of a MacGregor foe- the quote is something about the sweetest taste he'd ever had. On the up-side, commandos trained at Achnacary-the clan seat of Clan Cameron during the war, and nearly burned his house down!


Hawk


----------



## Kirkhill

Hawk said:
			
		

> Kirkhill-better not mention the Campbells to any other clan!!! I'm a Cameron by birth-a cousin told my girl-chasing teen-age son-"she can nae be a Campbell". We don't hold grudges or anything-stems from the Campbells supporting the English at the Battle of Cullodin Moor in 1746.
> 
> 
> Hawk



Hawk, I'd tread lightly on the Campbell name.  About the only clan that got the best of them, and that only occasionally, were the Hamiltons.  My mother's aunt married a Cameron. Not much to choose between the Camerons and the Campbells, crooked noses or crooked mouths. >

You might recall that there used to be southern Regiment of Covenanters, the Cameronians, that stood alongside the Hanoverians.  Just as did the Regiment from my home town, Marr's Grey Breeks or the Royal Scots Fusiliers (Now 2 RRS I believe).  Interesting that the Grey Breeks were raised with the Scots Greys to put down the Cameronians and their ilk.  Then the Greys, Grey Breeks and Cameronians were used to put down the Camerons of Lochiel and those other Stewart supporters.

And FL - you are right.  The incident happened at Glencoe in 1692 over whether to support the new Dutchman and the Covenanting Presbyterians, or the Stewart King James II, the Old Religion and the Pope.

But most days the Campbell's can be trusted.  

The Government Tartan is actually the Campbell tartan.  The Campbell Tartan is the first one and the Black Watch the second.  Aside from the lighting the colours are the same and the pattern is the same.

The Independent Companies, the 6 that were raised in 1725 were raised by the Campbell, the Earl of Argyll.  In 1739, when the Companies were regimented Lindsay, the Earl of Craufurd raised another 4 Companies to round out the establishment of the Regiment.  Independent Companies of the watch had been raised and disbanded for the Crown since 1660.  But the Regiment's real history began as a Regiment in 1739 once the Highlands had been pacified by General Wade and the Watch Companies could be put to regular service in the War of Jenkin's Ear.

Yer Guid Health.


----------



## Hawk

I'm so sorry-I didn't mean to offend anyone. I really must learn to mind my lip online! They still take the animosity toward the Campbells somewhat seriously in the Highlands-more a joke in Canada. My husband's niece married a Campbell-his uncle was at the wedding in full regalia-he looked amazing. 

As long as you remember the Cameronians and Locheil's men are two different peoples!!!

Incidently-we have the typical Cameron bump on our noses!!


Hawk


----------



## Kirkhill

Hawk said:
			
		

> I'm so sorry-I didn't mean to offend anyone. I really must learn to mind my lip online! They still take the animosity toward the Campbells somewhat seriously in the Highlands-more a joke in Canada. My husband's niece married a Campbell-his uncle was at the wedding in full regalia-he looked amazing.
> 
> As long as you remember the Cameronians and Locheil's men are two different peoples!!!
> 
> Incidently-we have the typical Cameron bump on our noses!!
> 
> 
> Hawk



Aw that's alright Tcheuchter  > - as you say - over here its not the issue it is back there.  The tribal lines were drawn long before the Romans showed up. As the Highland/Lowland Camerons show as well.  

Funny you should mention about the Cameron nose.  As well as the Campbell mouth I remember a book that I was reading about the British Royals and they commented how all the portraits of the Stewart kings show the same droopy eyelids.    A mate of mine that I met over here, had that same cast to the eye.  When I met him I asked him if he had any Stewart blood in him he said his name was Shand - a sept of the Stewarts.  Those genetic traits seem to be pretty hardwired sometimes.

PS - Just to let you know, we have the occasional Campbell show up on this site.


----------



## Hawk

Boy I'm glad I apologized! 

We also have a droopy eye lid-but fom the English side of our family-and a look at a picture of my Father, and you can picture him in a Centurian's helmet! Interesting.

The biggest problem they had on the Highlands, all through their history was the fact that the Clans couldn't get along. When Dundee managed to unite them at the battle near Blair Atholl in 1689 - it was a bloody route of the English. Our Sir Ewan was there, too!!

I was somewhat concerned when they got home rule-there is still at least some animosity between the clans (thence my Campbell comments) but they're managing to keep a lid on it. Maybe they've finally grown up!


Hawk


----------



## Kirkhill

Hawk said:
			
		

> ... Maybe they've finally grown up!
> 
> 
> Hawk



Aye......anything's possible.  Although from my last trip to Ayrshire a year or so ago I have my doubts.


----------



## Hawk

I just heard the noon news on CBC. Tony Blair has asked (pleaded?) with Scotland not to vote for independence. In discussion with my Sassanach husband, neither of us think it would be good for Scotland. Its interesting to contemplate, but could they be a separate, self-supporting country? They seem to be succeeding as a sort-of province on England.


----------



## FascistLibertarian

If you ask an English person what nationality they are they will say British but if you ask a Scottish person they will say Scottish.
Kind of like the Canadian/Québécois thing here I guess…..
Yeah I don’t think people take it seriously over here, we have a lot of Rabbie Burns Day Scottish, kinda similar to the Green Beer Irish that will be around tommorow.  I am a MacKay and we are supposed to hate the Sutherlands (they took our land) but the only Sutherland I know is a good guy.
Mind you I thought he was a good kid before I learned his last name, otherwise who knows!


----------



## Kirkhill

English father, Scottish mother, Scots and English grandparents, born in Scotland, raised in Scotland and England - I am not in the best position to offer an unbiased opinion.  Personally, I think they would be daft to declare independence.  The Union made Scots and Scotland.  Until this oil issue came to the fore separation was background noise heard at Murrayfield rugby pitch.  Now the Scots think the English are getting too much Scots oil.  The English think the Scots are getting too much of the money earned from British oil.

Insh'allah.


----------



## Hawk

My point exactly-along the lines of "if it works, don't fix it".

To my mind, it would be a disaster any way but the way it is now.


Hawk


----------



## FascistLibertarian

Well the scottish and english might both feel the other is getting too much oil but its not going to be as bad as
Nigeria/Iraq/Sudan
At least they will solve their problem civially
It can get ugly when countries have both natural resources and differnt ethinc groups
Esp when their country got created by Europeans 

so on that topic lets nationalize the oil fields and spread that wealth from Victoria to Newfoundland!


----------



## Kirkhill

FascistLibertarian said:
			
		

> Well the scottish and english might both feel the other is getting too much oil but its not going to be as bad as
> Nigeria/Iraq/Sudan
> At least they will solve their problem civially
> It can get ugly when countries have both natural resources and differnt ethinc groups
> Esp when their country got created by Europeans
> 
> so on that topic lets nationalize the oil fields and spread that wealth from Victoria to Newfoundland!



Fascist...you've obviously never been to a football match ;D  You might consider your optimism misplaced.

As to your last suggestion - you really do want to stir the pot, don't you?  >


----------



## Hawk

Aye - but football hooligans are another subject entirely!!! >


Hawk


----------



## FascistLibertarian

I have been to one football match that was a very low division in France, in the burbs, it was so much fun!
And i was in a bar in Paris when Arsenal lost to Barcelona. I was scared it would "kick off" lol, not my fight.
Now if the Leafs won


----------



## Red Hackle

There are some very short rare videos of the Black Watch during the last parade at Camp Gagetown . Maybe there is a generation out there that never knew we had other Regiments than what we have today . This great Regiment and it's sad demise along with  others during the early 70's . The 3rd Battalion (Reserve) is still going .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3c9EPCICTI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCZbItYlpvs


----------



## The Bread Guy

At least according to the Canadian Press' French wire....


> Pour la première fois de l'histoire du Canada, un francophone dirigera bientôt un régiment écossais du pays.  Un gros cadeau attend le lieutenant-colonel Bruno Plourde à son retour d'Afghanistan: le commandement de son régiment de réserve, le Royal Highland Regiment du Canada, couramment appelé the Black Watch, une institution établie en plein centre-ville de Montréal, rue Bleury.  Bruno Plourde ne savait même pas, à l'origine, qu'il allait créer ainsi un précédent, jusqu'à ce que ses camarades le lui fassent remarquer, a-t-il confié tout bonnement, au quartier-général de la police où il est posté, non loin de la ville de Kandahar ....



If I've read the lead correctly, CP is not correct - this is not the FIRST time a Francophone has commanded a Scottish regiment in Canada.  Then-Major Daniel Lapointe (of the Royal 22e Regiment) was CO of the Lake Superior Scottish Regiment in the late 1990s/early 2000s (news release attached).


----------



## off126

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> At least according to the Canadian Press' French wire....
> If I've read the lead correctly, CP is not correct - this is not the FIRST time a Francophone has commanded a Scottish regiment in Canada.  Then-Major Daniel Lapointe (of the Royal 22e Regiment) was CO of the Lake Superior Scottish Regiment in the late 1990s/early 2000s (news release attached).




Unofficial translation  ;D

For the first time in Canada's history a french-Canadian will command a scottish regiment. A big surprise awaits LCOL Brune Plourde when he returns from Afghanistan: command of his own reserve Regiment, the Royal Highland Regiment of Canada, usually called the Black Watch, an institution based in downtown Montreal, Bleury street. Bruno Plourde did not know he would be setting such a precedent until his colleagues told him so, he says cheerfully from the Police HQ (not sure what's being referred to here) where he is posted, not far from Kandahar City...


----------



## The Bread Guy

off126 said:
			
		

> Unofficial translation  ;D
> 
> For the first time in Canada's history a french-Canadian will command a scottish regiment. A big surprise awaits LCOL Brune Plourde when he returns from Afghanistan: command of his own reserve Regiment, the Royal Highland Regiment of Canada, usually called the Black Watch, an institution based in downtown Montreal, Bleury street. Bruno Plourde did not know he would be setting such a precedent until his colleagues told him so, he says cheerfully from the Police HQ (not sure what's being referred to here) where he is posted, not far from Kandahar City...



Merci pour votre assistance - I'm correct, and CP is wrong.


----------



## dapaterson

It's Bruno, not Brune.  Other than that, a good translation.


----------



## dapaterson

And, I should also add, a great guy and an asset to the Royal Highland Regiment of Canada (The Black Watch).


Even if he does drink Irish beer...


----------



## bwatch

Going on a road trip to Montreal next year for the 150 Anniversary of the Black Watch. Anyone wishing to tag along who might be in the Lower Mainland, give me a shout.


----------



## bwatch

Next your is our Regiments 150th Anniversary. Lots of stuff going on, like the Trooping of the Colors, Church Parade, ETC.  One one of the weekends, HRH will be there, not yet sure which weekend.  I will have a full months vacation and I was thinking about driving from Vancouver to Montreal for one of the major weekend's and would like if someone could come along for the ride. It's a long drive when your alone, I already did it once.  So if your in Vancouver or at least be living in places on my way, give me a shout and we can chat.


----------



## D Day Piper

Concerning Campbell's and McDonald's, just read "Massacre of Glencoe".

The Black Watch tartan is in fact the governmental tartan , but was named after the Police force kilted like this. From far, blue and green seem black. And they watch .....


----------



## Ex-SHAD

This comes from the now defunct "Regiments.org":


1862.01.31	5th Battalion Volunteer Militia Rifles, Canada
formed with HQ and six coys at Montreal by regimentation of independent Vol. Militia Rifle Coys

No. 1 Company, raised 22 Jan. 1862
No. 2 Company, raised 22 Jan. 1862; disbanded 1865; re-formed 9 Jan. 1866 by redesignation No. 2 Coy, Montreal Light Infantry; transferred back Sep. 1866 to Montreal Light Infantry
No. 3 Company, raised 22 Jan. 1862
No. 4 Company, raised 22 Jan. 1862
No. 5 Company, raised 22 Jan. 1862; disbanded by 1869
No. 6 Company, raised 22 Jan. 1862
No. 7 Company at Montreal
No. 8 Company at Montreal
No. 9 (Highland) Company at Montreal, transferred 9 Oct. 1863 from 1st Bn; disbanded by 1869
1862.11.07	5th Battalion, The Royal Light Infantry of Montreal
186u	5th Battalion "The Royal Light Infantry"
 	1871.06.02	disbanded
 	1872.04.12	re-formed
1875.11.19	5th Battalion "Fusiliers"
1876.01.14	5th Battalion "Royal Fusiliers"
1880.02.27	5th Battalion "Royal Scots Fusiliers"
1884.02.29	5th Battalion "Royal Scots of Canada"
1900.05.08	5th Regiment "Royal Scots of Canada"
1904.05.02	5th Regiment "Royal Scots of Canada, Highlanders"
1906.08.15	reorganised in two bns at Montreal

1st Battalion
2nd Battalion
1906.10.01	5th Regiment "Royal Highlanders of Canada"
1914	5th Regiment (Royal Highlanders of Canada)
1914.08.06	volunteers formed 13th Battalion CEF
1914.12.15	reorganised in four-company establishment
1920.04.01	The Royal Highlanders of Canada
1920.12.01	reorganised to perpetuate CEF:

1st Battalion, perpetuating 13th Battalion CEF
2nd Battalion, perpetuating 42nd Battalion CEF
3rd (Reserve) Battalion, perpetuating 73rd Battalion CEF
4th (Reserve) Battalion
1930.01.01	The Black Watch (Royal Highlanders of Canada)
1935.07.01	The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada
1940-1945	reorganised for war:

1st Battalion
2nd (Reserve) Battalion, redesignation 15 Aug. 1943 of 4th Bn
1946	reconstituted in Militia
1951.05.04	volunteers raised A Company (BWC), 1st Canadian Highland Battalion
1952.04.01	volunteers raised A Company (BWC), 2nd Canadian Highland Battalion
1953.10.16	Regular Force component added to establishment by redesignation of 
1st and 2nd Canadian Highland Battalions

1st Battalion
2nd Battalion
3rd (Reserve) Battalion
1970.07.01	Regular Force battalions disbanded, and regiment reverted to Reserve


----------



## Chispa

Hi, The Royal Highlanders of Canada were supposedly raised as "5th Bn. Volunteer Militia Rifles, Canada" Jan. 31 1862. However research clearly shows the Regiment, The Black Watch RHR origins can be traced to the 1837-38  Rebellion., 3rd Brigade, 1st Bn. "The Montreal Light Infantry" or MLI & 2nd Bn. "The Montreal Rifles or "The Rifles" from 1837-40-54. In 1849,  a new volunteer Force in Montréal were raised, from the city volunteer fire companies authorized into a volunteer Militia battalion under the command of the Hon. James Ferrier, then Mayor of Montréal, and John Fletcher being gazetted as Lieutenant and Adjutant.

"The 1st Battalion, Volunteer Militia Rifles of Montreal" 1855-56. " The Lyman's "Rifles", under the command of Hon. Lt.-Col. C.S. De Bleury in which is the name of the street the Regiments armoury main entrance. The Montreal No.3 Fire Brigade "PROTECTOR" on Notre Dame Street, being Fletcher's, "Old" Montreal Light Infantry was authorized on 2th Sept. 1855, as the "2nd Volunteer Militia Company of Montreal. " Fletcher's " Fire Brigade Militia Battalion of Montreal in Dec. 1861 was disbanded. Fletcher left 2nd Coy., in 1858  returning to Montreal to raise 5th BATT., after spending Few years with the 100th Prince of Wales Royal Canadian Regiment.    

Their Nickname is "The Ladies From Hell" also know as "The Ladies" of Montreal, and "The Royals".

Their Motto is  NEMO ME INPUNE LACESSITE, meaning..... I  Will Not be provoked without impunity. 

They have an other Motto which is the Biggest Myth, since many today in the Regiment still believe. "The Black Watch Never Retreats", which is Utter Nonsence, in hindsight that miss information and arrogance got many killed in the SWW. If the Officers and Sergeants would of read the War Diaries and books, archives written concerning the 42nd and the Infamous 13 BATT., instead of believing all that drunken patting on the back glorification, in the Officers and Sergeants Mess of Past Victories & Exploits. In Op.... Spring, Major Griffin would of known The Black Watch has Retreated manytimes in True Regimental form, indeed. The expression is when heavily outnumbered and gunned he who fights and runs away can Retreat, reorganise, Rally and fight with heroic Gallantry the very next day. The Black Watch of Canada 13th BATT., as our beloved, Sir Frederick Fisher VC., is a fined example of Retreating, Reorganizing & Perseverance, against all odds.

The Word "Retreat" or "Withdraw". Definition; Retreat=The forced or strategic withdrawal of an army or an armed force before an enemy, or the withdrawing of a naval force from action.


----------



## 57Chevy

My father served with The Blackwatch during WWII



			
				Chispa said:
			
		

> Their Motto is  NEMO ME INPUNE LACESSITE, meaning..... I  Will Not be provoked without impunity.



Not quite right; 
It is often translated as "No one attacks me with impunity" and,
is alternatively translated as "No one can harm me unpunished".



			
				Chispa said:
			
		

> They have an other Motto which is the Biggest Myth, since many today in the Regiment still believe. "The Black Watch Never Retreats", which is Utter Nonsence,



Actually it is not so much nonsence, it refers to the last words of Alaster Mackenzie in the late 1760s, " Stand by your colours, comrades, till death ! "

Which means to never retreat.  But I could be wrong.


----------



## Chispa

Hi I also served with them. Yes I know, that's true often translated as "no one attacks me with impunity."


Also  translated as "No one (Harms, wounds, hurts, provokes) me with impunity."




 The Black Watch never retreats ....
Those words were uttered by Major Griffin as he was going to attack V Ridge in Op. Spring, when many complained, attacking the Ridge was madness, or as Copp's stated "Ill considered."

In the seven year war, In 1759, at the Battle of Fort Carillon, out of all the British regiments, that the Black Watch were “the first at the front, the last to retreat”. 


Was your father in Op Spring or Black Friday the 13th., did he serve with RSM Finney in Germany after the War. Do U have his hackel, just asking with good reason.


----------



## 57Chevy

Chispa said:
			
		

> Was your father in Op Spring or Black Friday the 13th., did he serve with RSM Finney in Germany after the War. Do U have his hackel, just asking with good reason.



I have a limited file concerning my fathers' service due to the surviving spouse protocol.

I can tell you that he served in the UK and was wounded while serving in Northwest Europe.

Over the years he shared a number of stories, mostly the good times he had, but now and again

he would mention some that were hard, and sometimes some others that were even harder.


----------



## GR66

My uncle was also with the Black Watch in WWII.  He landed with them in Normandy as a Lance Sergeant in the support company and thus was not with the forward companies when they attacked V Ridge.  He was sent back to England and rec'd his commission at Sandhurst while the regiment was being reformed and rejoined them in NE Europe in time for the Sheldt.  At the end of the fighting in Europe he volunteered for service in the Pacific and as a result managed to get home earlier than most when the A-bombs ended the fighting on that front.  

Interestingly my father (only 16 at the end of the war) knew very little about his brother's war service until I saw "The Valour and the Horror" documentary about V Ridge, put a couple of pieces together and began to ask some questions.  My uncle was quite close friends with Phil Griffin and my dad remembers him coming to the house many times before the war. 

I also understand that my uncle (along with another officer) initially helped set up the Black Watch cadet corps after the war but I don't know any details of that.

Edited to Add:  My dad's cousin was also in the Black Watch and served as a CANLOAN officer with the 1st Battalion, Black Watch in the 51st (Highland) Division.  He was wounded in action and died of wounds 23-Aug-1944.  I'm also understand that his father (my dad's uncle) was a Black Watch officer before the war and served as a staff officer (with the brigade?) rather than with the regiment throughout the european campaign.


----------



## Chispa

Hi, "57Chevy" & GR66 I'm at work, Lunch , Lol I will reply later tonight or in a few days very busy, Thank U for the info u have provided, I can assure U it's appreciated.

 "Who or what was Black Watch?" First I should of asked Canadian or Scottish Black Watch.

I've been research the Black Watch of Canada for over 3 decades, been privileged to interview many Second World War vets from the Regiment.



Just in case this is a link to the Black Watch of Canada  SWW O.R. War diaries. If U know kindly disregard.

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/laird.niven/public_html/index.htm


Now for that Motto, check this from DND www.forces.gc.ca

MOTTO

NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT (No one shall touch me with impunity)
http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/ol-lo/vol-tom-3/par2/bwc-eng.asp

That Motto can be quite confusing at times, however no big deal on the translation,lol. 


I have the list of all the heroes aka KIA by date and added 4 more that I found by Family members that contacted me.
For Verrières Ridge for the 25th still missing 10+ names, or Copp, OO'Keefe, ect, ect got the numbers wrong.


Thank you for your time, and any bread crumbs on my Regimental Brothers in the SWW, will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Old Sweat

As someone who has been a student of the Canadian operations south of Caen for a considerable time, let me make a couple of comments.

The first one may seem to fly against the conventional wisdom, but in my opinion Phil Griffin has got a bad rap over the ill-fated attack. Cantlie was killed before he really could have appreciated that the FUP and start line (line of departure) were not secure and Griffin found himself in a very confused situation with, all at once, no one to turn to for advice. Maybe he should have called off the attack, but there is no indication the brigade commander would have concurred. He had, as have we all, developed in a culture where "don't just stand there. Do something" was a mantra and the only course of action as he saw it was to march up the hill.

To build on my first comment, when I was a junior officer in 3 CIBG in Gagetown in the early sixties we studied Operation Spring at one of the monthly officer study sessions. This included a first hand account by a warrant officer serving in 1 RCHA who was member of a FOO party with the RHC and who crawled back to our own lines that night. Based on the information imparted that day, and on my own study, I have concluded that the real culprits were the division commander and the commander of 5 Brigade, whose command skills and staff work was second rate at best. Their collective miscarriages put a Canadian battalion in a situation where once launched into battle, the conclusion was disaster. Neither officer was a tactical genius, but they both were permanent force officers who managed to avoid serious censure throughout their service in action.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Interestingly enough, a pal of mine (COS with a UK based Divsion) used the Canadian Operations in the Scheldt as a learning tool for the development of a higher standard of combined operational skills with his staff. 

Following this activity, he decided to go back on his own with some friends. He's an avid Historian in his own right with family ties in Holland and, along with his buddies from Cambridge (i.e., all friggin' brilliant) they led one of the most interesting battlefield tours I've ever been part of, entirely for their own interest. I was completely humbled to see how much detailed knowledge these British guys (only one of whom was a soldier) had accumulated about a Canadian operation.

We each had to sign up for a 'stand' and I picked Operation Angus, Oct 13th 1944: The attack by the Black Watch onto the elevated railway line at the entrance to Walcheren. Terry Copp does an excellent job explaining it here:

http://legionmagazine.com/en/index.php/2001/09/the-battle-north-of-antwerp/

We walked the ground from the start line to the objective on Oct 13th 2004: 60 years to the day - but at a slightly more respectable hour - after the actual battle. The only thing I could compare it to would be trying to attack the rim of a saucer from the centre. It was dead flat, and the only high ground was occupied by well entranched Germans. I was astonished that anyone could have survived that.

Later in the trip, we were mooching around the Walcheren Causeway (which is now all reclaimed land and no longer a causeway of course) and heard a 'beep beep'. We turned around and a WW2 era Canadian Army jeep, full of immaculately dressed Canadian 2nd Division Dutch re-enactors, sped by flying a huge Canadian Flag (post-1964 version) and waving like idiots.  

All in all I felt very fortunate to have been part of that experience.


----------



## Chispa

I'm having problems posting or inserting info from my PDF, ect






			
				Old Sweat said:
			
		

> As someone who has been a student of the Canadian operations south of Caen for a considerable time
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Old Sweat; just asking are you a historian? Do You have CHMQ report 150? No not appendix A.
> 
> Lets see if I can fill your plate and make you ponder, as for O'keefe's assessment in this matter is Very Black Watch Indeed.
> I wont let my pride get in the way of the Truth.
> 
> 
> Quote O’keefe; “320 Men of the Black Watch attacked the Ridge, only 20 made roll call that night.”
> 
> Terry Copp’s Op Spring a historians View, states The Black Watch suffered 307 casualties on 25 July. Five officers and 118 other ranks were killed or died of wounds, 101 were wounded and of the 83 taken prisoner, 21 were wounded.
> 
> Zuehlke, p. 168. Bercuson, p. 225. Of the 325 men that left the assembly area, 315 of them were either killed, wounded, or captured. Only 10?
> 
> Mckenna aka the Mckenna Brothers; Out of 325 men, 123 are killed, and 183 wounded or captured, some 16 soldiers stager back to the Start-Line.
> Your Math = 322?
> 
> 
> The first page States; CHMQ 150
> 
> 
> 
> 
> THE BLACK WATCH (ROYAL HIGHLAND REGIMENT)
> 0F.' CANADA IN OPERATION "SPRING", 25 JULY
> 1944.
> 
> 10 Apr 46..
> CANADIAN. MILITARY HEADQUARTERS.
> 
> MEM0RANDUM
> 
> On instructions from the Chief of Staff,
> the paper prepared by Lt.-Gen. G.G. Simonds to
> which reference is made in paragraph 4 and 5 of Report
> No. 150, Historical Section, C.M.H.Q., and appended
> thereto as Appendix "C" , was extracted and destroyed
> on 9 Apr. 46.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on the information imparted that day, and on my own study, I have concluded that the real culprits were the division commander and the commander of 5 Brigade, whose command skills and staff work was second rate at best.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Old Sweet I agree foolhardily with you. Your talking about the 3 wise men, Simonds, Foulkes, and Bloody Megill. Second rate is an understatement.
> 
> It's true Maj. Fredrick Philip Griffin and the Regiment took the blunt of blame for their " Detailed Execution "
> However Griffin is still to blame for the death of his men and the casualties they endured that day, according to my research, and I can assure you I have recived a Regimental Flogging for that assessment, and Black listed, per-say. However the Doors of the Regiment are always open to me.
> 
> En passant, Cantlie's Father in the First World War, gave Birth to the 42nd.
> 
> 
> Nobody till this date has mentioned or Explored the "Psychological Factor,"  PTSD. Was Maj.Griffin firing on all cylinders? Conclusive evidence shows No. By Griffin’s "ill-considered. reckless actions" later on the Jump of Point as through the battle, has reviled he was suffering from "Deep Depression" "Battle Exhaustion" & "Shock" as the pressure of acting C.O. It’s clear Griffin was manipulated by the General's taking advantage of the injuries to his personal friends and the death of Lt.-Col. Cantlie, his "young age and inexperience." Remember the Battle for Verrières Ridge, was the first battle 2 division participated in, since the landing on D-Day. Griffin was Green with only 6 days off Battle experience, even though he participated leading to Caen in house to house clearing Operation. While his grief only 2 hours old, for the lost of C.O. Lt. Col. Cantlie a Father Figure, which a personal bond excited, weighted heavily on Maj. Griffin. The death of Lt. -Col. Cantlie as the serious injuries of both close friends, Major Eric Modzfeldt, the senior second in command, and I.O. Lt. Duffield.
> 
> The Meeting with Griffin and Magill.
> 
> Brigadier Megill and Griffin debated as how the attack should proceed. The two men stood on a porch over looking May as Griffin explained his intentions of this new plan to bypass May. According to Megill, Griffin insisted that they had “patrols into May” he doubted that it was not held on “a continuous basis.” Megill went on record; recalling he suggested it might be better to stick to the original plan and move first to May, but Griffin insisted “they had patrols into May, as little activity was seen.” Once the Black Watch attack went in, he argued, the Calgary’s “would fill in behind” once they passed their start-line {not "Jump of Point."} At this point some Black Watch overheard Megill tell Griffin, “I'm giving the orders here.” since Griffin was being persistent. Griffin replied; bypassing May would save a considerable amount of time reaching their objectives. Insuring the Regimental Honour would be at stake if his objectives weren’t met or carried out. As The Black Watch would not disappoint The General an attack would be carried out with no further delays on the Word & Honour of The Regiment, The Black Watch never retreats! The Documents show a new artillery fire plan was agreed upon and tank support arranged with Major Walter Harris, the commander of 1st Hussars B SQN, which was not part of the original plan. 1st Hussars were originally intended to advance on the open left flank, would be switched to the right assisting the Calgarian’s in May then advance “ would fill in behind” at the Black Watch start-line on the reverse side of the ridge, supporting the attack of The Black Watch on the Back gentle sloped side of the ridge to the Top Crest.
> 
> Diary of Private W.T. Booth Intelligence H.Q., 1st Batt. Black Watch states; we assumed that the rifle companies began their advance about mid-morning, though we had no communication with them. The Watch had been strung out along the walls and hedgerows on the eastern side of St. Martin and were to advance to their “start line, a road running out of May” and up to the crest of the ridge, where they were to follow a creeping barrage onto their objective, Fontenay-le-Marmion.
> 
> That Road is called "Le Chemin des Mineur"  which is on the back side of the ridge connecting May and Fontenay.
> 
> 
> 
> The Start Line, you mean the Jump-off point to the Start Line, mistake many have made. O'keefe, Copp ect. That was Not the start line according to ALL first hand accounts  ect., ect.
> 
> 
> Do you have the Aerial Photo's ? I have 10.
> 
> 
> 
> Darn with this page going wako on me,  Ill add more later.
Click to expand...


----------



## Old Sweat

Keep the info coming, and I don't think we are too far apart in our thinking. There was more to Spring than the RHC attack. It essentially was a two division attack which saw only one battalion - the RHLI of 4 Bde commanded by LCol John Rockingham - capture and hold its objective. Spring also featured something very close to a mutiny as the commander of 9 Brigade and two of his battalion commanders refused to follow the order to attack. They all were sacked, and Rockingham got command of 9 Brigade.

The plan was ill-conceived, especially as it was conceived as a holding attack to keep the German panzer divisions south of Caen in place while the US First Army launched Operation Cobra. Bad as the plan was, its execution by the divisions and brigades was worse, and that was a failure in command by people a few pay grades above Griffin. As an aside, reflect upon Stacey's oft-quoted comment in the official history about Canadian command in Normandy, where he was most critical of the battalion and regimental commanders, but complimentary on those higher up the chain. There are those, myself included, that suspect he was parroting the party line.

I digress, however, and the RHC role is the part that gets all the attention for a number of reasons which I suspect you understand. Should Griffin have attacked? The smart answer is no, but he was unlikely to do so and it cost him and his men a terrible price.


----------



## Chispa

Still having problem posting, must be the severe is slow? 

You got that right, that attack did not solely revolve around the RHC or Griffin for that matter.

Many have stated for his actions he should of been Gazzeted the V.C., I think Not.

During the whole four days the infantry battalions of the 3rd Division suffered a total of 386 casualties, of which 89 were fatal. For the 2nd Division the comparable figures were 1149 casualties, with 254 men losing their lives. The units suffering most were, the Essex Scottish, with 244 casualties 37 dead. The South Saskatchewan, with 215 casualties, 62 dead. The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders had 81 casualties, 29 dead. The 3rd Division the heaviest toll had fallen upon The Queen's Own Rifles of Canada 77 casualties 23 dead. And Le Régiment de la Chaudière 72 wounded 20 dead. almost all suffered on 18 July-21st in Op. Atlantic. They all fought with Gallantry and heroics against incredible odds IMHO.

Awarding the “Victoria Cross” for Heroic Gallantry and great leadership to just one individual, for the Battle for Verrières Ridge. Would be like handing out a speeding ticket, just to one driver at the Daytona 500!  All Infantry Regiments fought with determination Heroic Gallantry and great leadership above and beyond the call of Duty, with the odds numerously stacked against them.



As for Cobra don't get me started :

Got To Go, emergency call.

After years of DND404 error fixed the problem last year, go to CMHQ reports you should be able to download Report 150, if Not I'll send to you plus the Aerial pictures


----------



## Chispa

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Keep the info coming, and I don't think we are too far apart in our thinking. There was more to Spring than the RHC attack. It essentially was a two division attack which saw only one battalion - the RHLI of 4 Bde commanded by LCol John Rockingham - capture and hold its objective. Spring also featured something very close to a mutiny as the commander of 9 Brigade and two of his battalion commanders refused to follow the order to attack. They all were sacked, and Rockingham got command of 9 Brigade.
> 
> The plan was ill-conceived, especially as it was conceived as a holding attack to keep the German panzer divisions south of Caen in place while the US First Army launched Operation Cobra. Bad as the plan was, its execution by the divisions and brigades was worse, and that was a failure in command by people a few pay grades above Griffin. As an aside, reflect upon Stacey's oft-quoted comment in the official history about Canadian command in Normandy, where he was most critical of the battalion and regimental commanders, but complimentary on those higher up the chain. There are those, myself included, that suspect he was parroting the party line.
> 
> I digress, however, and the RHC role is the part that gets all the attention for a number of reasons which I suspect you understand. Should Griffin have attacked? The smart answer is no, but he was unlikely to do so and it cost him and his men a terrible price.





I'm very rusty, since it's been a longtime I've discussed this.

I remember Gen. Keller aka yeller got his Arse fragged by USAF Carpet bombing his sector in Op. Tantalize, around Aug 8th however other sources say it was in Operation Tractable ;D. At the end of Aug. Simonds fired 3-4 CF. Gen. ect. If I remember correctly.

.
Many high ranking Canadian officers complained to high command concerning Simonds incompetence since he entered the battle filed.


Montgomery wrote the following opinion: General Crerar was to have difficulties and has started off his career as an Army Commander, by thoroughly upsetting everyone...he had a row with Crocker the first day and asked me to remove Crocker. I have spent two days trying to restore peace...As always there are faults on both sides, but the basic cause was Harry; I fear he thinks he is a great soldier...I now hope I can get on with fighting the Germans -- instead of stopping the generals fighting amongst themselves. The more I think of Harry Crerar, the more I am convinced that he is quite unfit to command an army in the field at present. He has much to learn and he will have many shocks before he has learnt it properly. He has already started to have rows with Canadian generals under me.””

  Bernd “Monty’ was not pleased when his Canadian Division Commander fired Brigadier Howard Graham, commander of the 1st Canadian Infantry Brigade. Montgomery wrote to Corps Commander Oliver Leese: “This is a great pity. Graham is an excellent fellow and much beloved in his brigade. I expect Simonds lost his temper. Simonds is a young and very inexperienced divisional general and has much to learn about command. In my highest opinion of Simonds...[although he] tried to go off the rails once or twice when he first went into action with his Div. Simonds must therefore be handled carefully and trained on.



The plan was presented to BIMBO as a Holdout Attack by Simonds, and Lucky approved it. Then Simonds changed the plan without telling Lt.-Gen. Dempsey, all reasch by O'keefe, Copp's, ect ect cleary shows it was not, by original documentation. Simonds in a 1946 reports writes, declaring that Operation Spring was designed not as a breakout battle. But merrily a “Holding Attack” to distract the Germans, allowing the US to breakout. {Sounds like a bunch of Hogwash to me.}


The heroic gallantry of the Black Watch has been chiseled deeply in granite, and by King`s proclamation the Regiments reputation will never be at stake, due to unsurvivable circumstances, or by any General`s order.

All the Regiments in Support of the Watch in Op. Spring failed to hold on a continuous bases or never reached their objectives, leaving the Black Watch  to attack the Ridge by themselves.

And I`m not aware that Harris 1st Hassarse and B SQN.  The Calgarians, Camerons and Simonds infamous artillery when they all dropped the ball and retreated out of May ect.. No one paid the price and the blunt of blame went to Griffin and the Black Watch for their ``Detailed Execution, according to Simonds`Accounts


----------



## Old Sweat

Chispa said:
			
		

> _There is a lot of material here, but I'll try to address it._
> 
> I'm very rusty, since it's been a longtime I've discussed this.
> 
> I remember Gen. Keller aka yeller got his Arse fragged by USAF Carpet bombing his sector in Op. Tantalize, around Aug 8th however other sources say it was in Operation Tractable ;D. At the end of Aug. Simonds fired 3-4 CF. Gen. ect. If I remember correctly.
> 
> _Keller was wounded by the USAAF on 8 August in the Phase 2 bombing in Operation Totalize. I am not sure what that has to do with Simonds firing generals after the end of the Normandy Campaign, but he relieved the Commander of 4th Canadian Armoured Division at that time. The Commander of 6th Canadian Infantry Brigade was promoted and sent home to take up a staff job in army headquarters. It is thought by some that he was kick upstairs. In all two division commanders (Keller wounded and Kitching fired) and seven brigade commanders (Cunninghasm fired, Blackader to temporary command of 3 Div, Lett and Wyman wounded, Foster promoted to replace Kitching, Young promoted and posted and Booth killed) were changed as a result of the operations south of Caen. That is hardly wide scale firing._
> 
> .
> Many high ranking Canadian officers complained to high command concerning Simonds incompetence since he entered the battle filed.
> 
> _That is the first I have heard of it. Please provide names, dates and primary sources._
> 
> 
> Montgomery wrote the following opinion: General Crerar was to have difficulties and has started off his career as an Army Commander, by thoroughly upsetting everyone...he had a row with Crocker the first day and asked me to remove Crocker. I have spent two days trying to restore peace...As always there are faults on both sides, but the basic cause was Harry; I fear he thinks he is a great soldier...I now hope I can get on with fighting the Germans -- instead of stopping the generals fighting amongst themselves. The more I think of Harry Crerar, the more I am convinced that he is quite unfit to command an army in the field at present. He has much to learn and he will have many shocks before he has learnt it properly. He has already started to have rows with Canadian generals under me.””
> 
> _You have parroted Montgomery's version of events and are not alone in doing so. I suggest you consult my No Holding Back: Operation Totalize, Nomandy, August 1944 pp 49-51 for a discussion of the matter based on both Montgomery's and Crerar's version of the events._
> 
> Bernd “Monty’ was not pleased when his Canadian Division Commander fired Brigadier Howard Graham, commander of the 1st Canadian Infantry Brigade. Montgomery wrote to Corps Commander Oliver Leese: “This is a great pity. Graham is an excellent fellow and much beloved in his brigade. I expect Simonds lost his temper. Simonds is a young and very inexperienced divisional general and has much to learn about command. In my highest opinion of Simonds...[although he] tried to go off the rails once or twice when he first went into action with his Div. Simonds must therefore be handled carefully and trained on.
> 
> _Irrelevant as it happened over a year before and in a different theatre._
> 
> 
> 
> The plan was presented to BIMBO as a Holdout Attack by Simonds, and Lucky approved it. Then Simonds changed the plan without telling Lt.-Gen. Dempsey, all reasch by O'keefe, Copp's, ect ect cleary shows it was not, by original documentation. Simonds in a 1946 reports writes, declaring that Operation Spring was designed not as a breakout battle. But merrily a “Holding Attack” to distract the Germans, allowing the US to breakout. {Sounds like a bunch of Hogwash to me.}
> 
> _Did Simonds change his plan or did he plan for exploitation in case success had been achieved? This is an open question that is subject to interpretation._
> 
> The heroic gallantry of the Black Watch has been chiseled deeply in granite, and by King`s proclamation the Regiments reputation will never be at stake, due to unsurvivable circumstances, or by any General`s order.
> 
> All the Regiments in Support of the Watch in Op. Spring failed to hold on a continuous bases or never reached their objectives, leaving the Black Watch  to attack the Ridge by themselves.
> 
> And I`m not aware that Harris 1st Hassarse and B SQN.  The Calgarians, Camerons and Simonds infamous artillery when they all dropped the ball and retreated out of May ect.. No one paid the price and the blunt of blame went to Griffin and the Black Watch for their ``Detailed Execution, according to Simonds`Accounts
> 
> _I have no idea what you are trying to say here_.


----------



## Chispa

“Spring also featured something very close to a mutiny” 

The Mutiny was with Foulkes & Simonds, which goes back many moons before Op. Spring and continued postwar. Rockingham got 
command of 9 Brigade Aug. 8 same time Keller got bombed in Op. Totalize.  Keller is part of the picture, and that’s how I make the 
connect for those dates when Rockinghan got command of 9th Brigade. However for the Sacking,  and his participation in the Operation, 
according to Accounts. Cunningham of 9th infantry Brigade was sacked by Simonds and awarded the Distinguished Service Order for 
gallantry and distinguished services in the field of battle.





> Brigadier D.G.B. Cunningham and the commanding officers of two of his Ninth Brigade battalions were fired for refusing to press the attack against Tilly.1 Major-General Keller, whom the British had suggested replacing in early July,2  retained command, since he was on Simmonds side in Op.Spring  and demanded, Cunningham mount a new attack.
> 
> 1. "Interview Brig. D.G. Cunningham," 1983.
> 2. Letter Dempsey to Montgomery, 6 July 1944, Crerar Papers, vol. 3.







> After the failure of the attack and consultation among divisional command staff, The Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders were warned to reinforce the North Novas, but the order was never given "presumably because it was felt that they would accomplish little" according to the official Army history. The battalion's war diarist confided relief and confessed the need for a rest after long periods in the line since D-Day. Both the North Novas and the SDG, along with the 9th Brigade, had their commanders replaced following the attack.
> 
> Source ; Stacey, C.P. Official History of the Canadian Army in the Second World War: Volume III: The Victory Campaign: The Operations in North-west Europe 1944-45







> Accounts of Maj-General George Kitching. Concerning Simonds and Op Spring.
> 
> In Operation Spring Simonds wanted desperately to get rid of Foulkes after Spring. ``On at least three occasions Kitching wrote. Guy Simonds  confided in me that he was going to get rid of Charles Foulkes. I can only assume that General Crerar must have intervened and insisted that Charles remain because nothing happened. Foulkes was not the only division commander to be in Simonds dog house after Spring. The other Canadian divisional commander Maj.-General RF.L. Keller whose 3rd Division had been fighting continually since it hit the beaches on June 6 th., was under review for dismissal Simonds at the request of 2nd British Army- commander General Miles Dempsey.
> 
> Source; Stacey, Date with Kistorv: The Memoirs of Canadian Historian.
> (Onaua: 1982) P. 147.. J.A Englisb., Failwe in Hi& Command: The Canadian Army and the Normandy& Cariulaim. (Toronto: 1991) P. 132
> 9 NAC, RG24 Vol. 13,712.2nd Canadian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Simonds. the fact that Maj. Gen Charles Foulkes's 2nd Canadian Infantry Division was new to the Normandy battlefield spared its commanders from becoming the scapegoat for Springs failures. Instead, the axe fell on the long-suffering 3rd Canadian Infantry Division as a result of their actions at Tilîy-la-Campagne. After meeting with Second British Army Commander General Miles Dempsey., and later with 3rd Canadian Infantry Division  Commander Maj.-GeneraI Rod Keller. Simonds convened a court of inquiry removing the commanders of the 9th Canadian Infantry Brigade and the North Nova Scotia Highlanders. As an indirect result of this inquiry. The commander of the Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry Highlanders was also removed from command. Simonds also gave serious consideration to ending the careers of both his divisional commanders but refrained for morale Considerations.
> 
> 
> 
> *In Operation Spring. Stacey historical investigation, conducted over the next eighteen months, reviled a controversy between Simonds and Foulkes over the conduct of the operation  * an operation that Stacey would later refer to as ``the costliest in a single-day operation for the Canadian Army in the Second World War.''
> 
> According to Stacey the costly and meagre results of Spring led to a heated debate in the immediate postwar years between the two commanders most associated with the operation ,,Simonds & Foulkes.
> 
> Source;
> Stacey, The Victory Campaign P.194
> D Hist. "AHQ Report No.95: Historical Activities Within the Canadian Army "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Did Simonds change his plan or did he plan for exploitation in case success had been achieved? This is an open question that is subject to interpretation*
> 
> Spring, was planned and presented by Simonds to Dempsey as a “holding attack”  Simonds in a 1946 reports writes, declaring that Operation Spring was designed not as a breakout battle. But merrily a “Holding Attack” to distract the Germans, allowing the US to break out.   I’ll give you this angle.
> 
> However on 22 July Montgomery changed his plans. He explained a new scheme to Eisenhower in a letter which stated that he was not going to "hold back or wait" for the Americans. Instead, II Canadian Corps, reinforced with two British armoured divisions, was to attack on 25 July, capturing Verrieres Ridge and advancing south to secure the next high ground at Point 122 near Cranmesnil. Two days later XII British Corps, west of the Orne, would once again try to capture Pt. 112. (Something that should have been done before Op Atlantic was launched IMO.)
> 
> 
> Source;
> The directive and the letter to Eisenhower are in C.P. Stacey, 181-83 The Victory Campaign. The letter to Eisenhower is dated 23 July but Lieut.-General Miles Dempsey discussed the operation with Simonds on the morning of the 22nd. Dempsey Papers PRO WO 285/9.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is hardly wide scale firing & Irrelevant as it happened over a year before and in a different theatre.
> 
> 
> Yes that was not from Op. Spring, and irrelevant, showing a pattern with the sacking of Graham and Montys comments . Simonds called them his “Insubordinates” and fired many. Simonds In January 1944 was made GOC II Corps and made numerous personnel changes: The Chief Engineer, Chief Medical Officer and the Commander  CCRA were sacked, and F. F. Worthington was replaced as commander of 4th Canadian Armoured Division {Granatstein (2005) p.163}
> 
> Many ranking officers sent letters and vigorously complained concerning Lt.-Gen Guy Granville Simonds,  arrogance stature, hot tempered and ignorant incompetence, far worse, his zealous reckless carelessness with complete utter disregard, for the lives of the men under his command, and own personal gains in reputation and career.
> 
> It’s my understanding H. Crerar received many complaints, concerning Simonds…. Megill and especially Foulkes included.
Click to expand...


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## Old Sweat

The Keller-Cunningham affair is interesting. Brigadier PAS Todd, who was the artillery commander of the 3rd Division at the time, told Simond's biographer that on his death bed, Simonds told him that he still agonized over the matter, as he felt he should have sacked Keller, and not Cunningham.

The British had wanted Keller relieved much earlier in the campaign, but for whatever reason, Simonds demurred. It may have been that he wanted to observe him before making a decision. By the time Spring had concluded, Simonds probably had decided that Keller was the lesser of two evils. Foulkes probably should have gone, to be replaced by whoever - Spry from Italy or Foster from 7 Brigade or Blackader from 8 Brigade. 

Leaving the Graham affair aside, although Simonds was wrong here, there is little other than gossip to indicate that (many, if any) senior officers complained to Crerar about Simonds. Foulkes got the last laugh here, as he became the Chief of the General Staff (CGS) after the war, while Simonds commanded the UK Imperial Defence College. Simonds replaced Foulkes circa 1951 and was a highly effective CGS.

In any case, the Black Watch affair has been treated rather unfairly over the years, perhaps because of the militia regiment's influence and status in Montreal's Anglo society, which was very powerful in what was Canada's largest and most important city at the time. By that I mean, people tried to find a way out of the mess, and coulld not find one. The bottom line was that Griffin was not the only officer to make mistakes that day, but he was unable to defend himself.


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## Chispa

Biography of General H.D.G. Crerar, can be found online free to read.

Around P.273-75 -81 and so on, discusses  Keller’s sacking, Monty, Croker, Cunningham  Simonds ect.

I fined it hard to swallow, Simonds showed remorse, guilt. Without Keller the Simonds witchhunt aka inquiry, to lay blame for his failures 
and the sacking of many would be hard for Simonds without Keller, Crerar gives his version of events, meeting with both as he was contacted 
twice to have him removed early July and around the 18th.

7th July, Monty wrote a long letter to the Canadians and made it known to Brooke he wanted Keller sacked.

However not knowing, on July 9th  Keller lost his chance in replacing Burns. Keller contacted Army HQ to report he wanted the 
CO of 9th Inf. Brigade, Cunningham removed.


Keller wanted pay back for the complaints he received, and the unjustified stick poking from others. Keller had issues with Lt. -Gen. Croker  
and Cunningham. The letter and rumours among the division that “Keller was yeller” a drunk, incompetent ect ect, must of been hard to swallow. 
However the USAF precision bombing took care of Monty’s problem on the 8th.


I knew them as rumours longtime ago, then led to believe it was documented or should I say account. What about the complaints concerning 
daylight open field Op’s., or attacks, causing high casualties, which were supposedly very critical of Simonds incompetence? 






> The Black Watch role (and other Regiments) in Operation Spring is largely based on survivor testimony compiled by C.P. Stacey’s historical
> section during and after the war. Stacey and his, team faced a significant challenge understanding what happened to the Watch on 25 July 44
> using recollections almost exclusively. Or the challenge understanding was lost in the clutter of incoherent contradiction in the “accounts,”
> as Col. A. Duguid stated.
> 
> 
> “Colonel A.F. Duguid acknowledged a need to be conscious
> of contradictions within those accounts and between memories
> and the written record. Stacey and his team encountered both of these
> challenges in their work on Operation Spring.”







> The battalion memory of the event insisted that Griffin had been ordered to proceed directly to the objective { On the reverse side of
> the crest facing Fonetany.} This incident later became a central feature in the Normandy episode of Brian McKenna’s doc.. The Valour and
> the Horror in which it was alleged that there had been a cover up. McKenna later accused C.P. Stacey, the official historian, of having a role
> in this scheme to obscure the truth.
> 
> { No startline?  Attack the front of the ridge for the Watch} which rises 37 metres over a distance of 1,000m, the point where they would
> All assemble and follow a creeping barrage towards the wooded area leading to Fontenay, after all had “Fill in behind” once clearing May?
> On the crest facing Fonetany after the Calgary’s advanced down route D162 S into May turn left at the crossroads, where the houses end
> the road turned into a small dirt path, called “the minors road” leading to Fonetany,  pass the two quarries where the start-line, to  attack
> the reverse to, crest.}







They found Griffin on Aug. 8th on the reverse side of the crest, lying among his men. The Watch and Griffin received the brunt of blame 
for the “detailed execution” as failures of the infantry Regiments and C.O’s, in Op. Spring. Even though some mistakes were made by 
Battalion’s and Coy C.o’s.  ect.  There’s no evidence that I’ve found to support that Griffin was responsible nor The Regiments or C.O’s ect., 
In Op. Atlantic or Spring. 

It’s evident by Jerries overwhelming force from the start. The Cameron’s had one hell of a time in St. Andrea, Calgarians in St. Martine, 
Factory Aera, their forward Coy’s and 1st H chopped down in May ect., not counting all the friendly fire the Regiments endured from Simonds’s 
infamous artillery.

By 09:00hrs Spring, should of been called–off,  Megill and many other Officers voice same opinion according to accounts and by action taken by 
many, that’s the Foulkes & Megill mutiny. Megill is also the only one I belive from Brigade that went forward to asses the situating, which he stated 
was hopeless. Simonds and the Brigadiers lacked C-3 and in Us against them, the regiments were seriously outnumbered and outgunned.


However the evidence clearly show’s Griffon, is responsible for the casualties the Watch endured when he lead the attack. For his reckless actions, 
resembling the battle of Magersfontein Dec. 1899. Once all were back many survivors where critical of Griffins actions, his young age, inexperience, 
and lack of judgement led many to their graves needlessly, however praised his courage. Many concluded that a more seasoned leader, 
the Watch would of not suffered such high casualties, and should of retreated while many were still alive ect. However all that, was sweep 
immediately under the rug by the Watch’s highbrows and brass. It’s evident since survivors would only discuss the matter in privet or 
away from other ears at the regiment.


 At the end around 60 reached the crest and many instantly became casualties. Finally when the front gentle slopes of V Ridge laid littered with 
bloody red stain hackles… Griffin got a reality check, and gave the order to retreat,,, Too little too late. He should of listen when others saw 
the reality of the matter and hopeless to continue the attack. survivor, Private Montreuil, reported that Capt. Kemp, C.o. "D" Coy, urged Maj. 
Griffin to call off the attack but Griffin replied "that the orders were to attack and that the battalion would therefore carry on.


Megill went on record concerning Op. Spring: "To attack uphill into a strong enemy position was bad enough, but it seemed suicidal when 
every step forward exposed your flank to enemy tanks, mortar and artillery from the west bank of the Orne"


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## Old Sweat

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what points you are trying to make.

However, Keller was not doing well and when Simonds confronted him, he replied that his health was not good and requested a medical board which, Keller believed, would find medically unfit for command. This did not happen and he remained in command until he was wounded on August 8th.

As for criticism of Simonds, since you are unable to provide sources, I suggest you drop the matter.

I think we may be in agreement re Spring and the RHC's part in it, but it is hard to define your logic. Foilkes and Megill are the culprits for doing nothing to influence the operation, which is within their brief as commanders.


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## Chispa

You stated the mutiny of Spring,  and interesting between both. Just showing that Keller wanted Cunningham sacked long before Spring and the bad blood between them and others.

After Monty requested twice for Kellers removal due to Crocker's complaints to Dempsey concerning, Keller was unfit Physically and mentally ect ect. Keller retained command because Carera ordered no official action be taken and if so it should be by a Canadian General not British. Keller helped Simonds with the sackings, he fallowed orders during the Op., and demanded Cunningham mount a new attack, which he did not since orders were ignored. And with so many sacked, if Keller’s medical problems continued eventually he would be removed according to Crerar Bio.  


As for hard to define my Logic, yes that comment might hold water. Could be I look at all 3 sides. Case and point, Foulkes and Megill are the culprits 
for doing nothing to influence the operation. 

Megill always gets stick poked for Spring.  He was the only one from Brigade that went forward, and not only once. Megill “discussed” (more like vigorous debate) with Foulkes, after a 7th Armoured Div. liaison officer had advised, “that his men did not seriously believe that their part in Phase II of "Spring" was possible.” Megill met with Foulkes and argued the case, Foulkes assured him they would go all out. Megill left having to accept the assurance. Once the battle began all his fears materialised,  just passing orders down from Faulkes since Simonds was ordering “to press on.”  

In the July 88 interview Megill stated; 
It was perfectly clear that the attack should have been called off at a very early stage In the morning. “I suggested” this not later than perhaps 8:00 or 9:00 o'clock. Instead the Corps commander was pressing the divisional commander and he was pressing us to get on with an attack which we knew was almost hopeless.


Later Megill found out Foulkes was going to attack again, using the Maisonneuves. At 5th Brigade HQ they meet with others and Foulkes began the discussion by reporting that Simonds was "furious at the failure which had occurred."

 Megill protested the decision to order the Maisonneuves into battle and a “shouting match erupted” with Foulkes demanding to know if Megill was challenging his orders. 


Megill tried to change the outcome and voiced his concerns to continue the attack was hopeless.


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## Old Sweat

Fair enough. Remember Spring was supposed to keep Panzer Divisions in place at the east end of the front. Given that, along with the doctrine that taught that commanders were to monitor the situation from their headquarters, and Simonds' reaction was obvious in that the battle was still in its early stages. He really did not have enough information to call off the attack, and given the communications available and sheer time and space, he probably could not have influenced the battle in time. 

This policy could lead to debacles like Spring and missed opportunities like the situation at first light on 8 August during Totalize. In the latter case the better part of two armoured and two infantry brigades were on their objectives, and there was perhaps one German infantry battalion and a few armoured vehicles along with a large number of disorganized and demoralized stragglers facing them. 

Nothing was done to exploit the breakthrough and within a few hours, the Germans had rigged a hasty defence. Personally I believe Simonds would have stayed with his original plan, but we will never know what he would have done, had he been forward to assess the situation.

The other unanswered question is what would he had done if he had been forward with Foulkes and Megill to see the situation shortly after H Hour on Spring? Given the way the situation was developing, he might, repeat, might have ordered a halt and reordering of the operation. 

We probably have reached the point where the deceased equine has been flogged to Taco meat. I think we have differing opinions on Keller, but agree Griffin and his men have gotten more than their fair share of blame.


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## MilEME09

While browsing videos on youtube I found this video apparently made by someone who's father was in the Black Watch before the Reg force component was disbanded. The video is 58 minutes long containing a brief regimental history and has the complete disbanding ceremony at CFB Gagetown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOdOJa9BeN4


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