# Canadian Manoeuvre Training Centre (CMTC), Wainwright



## Gunner (30 Jun 2005)

Game on for Wainwright training facility for troops

By BROOKES MERRITT, EDMONTON SUN


Military officials in Alberta are quietly readying to open one of the world's most sophisticated armed forces training centres. 

Brig.-Gen. Stu Beare will oversee development of the Canadian Manoeuvre Training Centre in Wainwright - a state-of-the-art war games facility. 

"By next year, more than 4,000 members of the Canadian army will be trained in combat tactics ranging from direct-fire weapons to chemical contamination, all in a live environment," Beare said. 

The $500-million facility will train two groups of 1,000 soldiers each, twice per year. Special reserve forces will use it in the summer. 

Beare said the facility is part of a larger strategy to transform the Canadian Armed Forces, preparing troops for foreign theatres in which terrorism and urban warfare are more prevalent. 

"Two years ago we had 6,000 troops overseas; our military couldn't sustain that," Beare said. "By next year we'll be at 4,000. They'll be better-trained and we'll be acting in better accordance with our size." 

Month-long training at the CMTC will see troops using a state-of -the-art laser tag system to simulate combat operations in populated areas, complete with non-English-speaking civilians, insurgent and coalition forces. 

"This will be the jewel in the Canadian Forces crown," Beare said. "A posting in Wainwright will take on a whole new meaning."


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## Infanteer (30 Jun 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> "This will be the jewel in the Canadian Forces crown," Beare said. "A posting in Wainwright will take on a whole new meaning."



Does this mean that JD's will be expanding their bar and dance floor?


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## MJP (30 Jun 2005)

That was included in the CMTC budget


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## McG (30 Jun 2005)

It seems like the army really started the publicity blitz for the CMTC during the 1 CMBG/LFWA CoC yesterday.  It was all over the local news.


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## Gunner (30 Jun 2005)

McG, you are correct.  The CF is pumping alot of money into the local economy of Wx and they want to raise its profile among local, provincial and federal politicians.  Were you at the CoC yesterday?


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## TCBF (30 Jun 2005)

I spent $160 on a window for my 1983 Civic in The Town of Wainwright today.  It's not DND money YET, until I can get the MPs convince  Roads and Grounds that one of their riding mowers launched a rock into my car in the parking lot of bldg 18. (Former German POW barracks, now Cdn Warrants and Sergeants).

I also bought $28.34 of gas.  Cheaper there than in Edmonton.

Tom


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## JasonH (30 Jun 2005)

Try and convince the provincial government (whoever does the auto there) that your vehicles is for work purposes (Military/DND) and ask for tax rightoff on your gas  

My dad goes through 100$'s a week on gas because we do floor installing and we need to go all over BC.  So it's nice that he gets the rightoff


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 Jun 2005)

Crown made of tin.

Well at least we'll have all the assests to train with once a year as they raped the BN to stand this thing up.  Wonder how long before international units push us out entirely.


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## Gunner98 (30 Jun 2005)

Can you imagine describing Wainwright in this manner to a new recruit or young officer. "This will be the jewel in the Canadian Forces crown," Beare said. "A posting in Wainwright will take on a whole new meaning."     

From armpit to jewel - there must be a storyline there somewhere.

When we drove through Douglas on the way to Shilo in 1994. my wife said, "where the heck are you taking us.   I said, "Wait dear, were not there yet."

I will spend Sep & Oct in sunny Wx for BTE, I will see how much tarnish is on or how many cracks there are in this jewel in the CF crown."

Stu and I were young Gnr offrs together, he has always had a knack for colourful media-friendly quotes.   Keep in mind he will oversee the construction of the crown Jewel from Kingston not Denwood.


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## TCBF (1 Jul 2005)

"From armpit to jewel - there must be a storyline there somewhere."

You don't actually expect the Camp to look much different, do you?   I suppose I could put a flower in my window.  Maybe we could get a shrubbery for Bldg 152, somethig not too big, not too small....

Tom


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## Gunner (1 Jul 2005)

I think wainwright, both the base and town, have come a long way since I first started training there in the mid 80s.  Would it be my posting of choice?  No, but I can't say I would go there kicking and screaming.


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## Scoobie Newbie (1 Jul 2005)

I'll be there in Oct as well.  I wonder if we will be kitted up with all the gear?


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## TCBF (1 Jul 2005)

If it's for SAT2/3, hopefully.


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## McG (1 Jul 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Were you at the CoC yesterday?


I was in amongst the spectators to the north side.



			
				Gunner said:
			
		

> The CF is pumping alot of money into the local economy of Wx and they want to raise its profile among local, provincial and federal politicians.


I just got the same information this morning.  It seems this is an attempt to respond to the typically "supportive" town of Wainwright (the one that will not even allow a Timmies).


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## Gunner (1 Jul 2005)

> It seems this is an attempt to respond to the typically "supportive" town of Wainwright (the one that will not even allow a Timmies).



There is both an internal to the CF campaign as well as external to the CF campaign going on.  The addition of 100s of PYs has placed a burden upon the camp and the town and it is causing problems, not the least of which is higher real estate prices.  A lot of CF members do NOT want to go to Wx and it is causing problems posting the right people to CMTC. 

CMTC is termed "Cape Canaveral" as it will "launch" BGs upon international operations.


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## Gunner98 (1 Jul 2005)

I have no doubt that Wx has come a long way since the 80s. I still can't imagine it as a jewel.  Does that mean that Gagetown, Sufffield and Shilo are also jewels in the CF crown.  If Wx is Cape Carnaveral, I guess Suffield is the dark side of the moon.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Jul 2005)

8)


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## McG (2 Jul 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> Shilo is the asshole.


To get out of there, you may only need ask for an OPFOR job in Wainwright.


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## TCBF (2 Jul 2005)

In Wainwright, EXCON is no longer the big hole on the hill it was a year ago, it is now a real building behind the Officers Mess.  The top end of CMTC will move into it , and leave the Obsever/Controllers in the Korean War vintage Building 152. OPFOR has already moved into the tan coloured Brit lines.  A new hole has been dug NW of the WSM (former WW2 6 Cdn Inf Div , later German POW barracks).  This is the start of two 92 (+ -) person barracks for Officers and Warrants and Sergeants.

Don't expect newly paved roads with curbs, a swimming pool, or any of the amenities of a large CFB.  As well, a rather parochial commercial mentality among the local denizens of the town means a one hour drive to the nearest Timmies.  DND money apparently went into the town pool, but the alleged 'free use by off duty mil pers and families' appears to have been a rumour, or conveniently forgotten.  Probably just another urban myth.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Jul 2005)

oh go from a place with no spousal employment to a new place without spousal employment.  I'd rather try to get in on the TUA transfer.  Edmonton is looking real nice now.


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## Gunner (2 Jul 2005)

> Edmonton is looking real nice now.



Edmonton is a good posting...   ;D

Sorry to hear you haven't warmed up to Shilo...


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## GENOMS Soilder (2 Jul 2005)

So with this place opening up for training, is the only way to get to train in it is with Reg forces that are based out west?
Could there be a chance of training there for somebody in Guelph at the 11th Field?
This sounds cool, and helpful for our negelected soldiers.


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## Gunner (2 Jul 2005)

CMTC has summer serials for Reserve Company Groups to go through but I haven't seen many details on how this will happen.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (2 Jul 2005)

There is now some doubt that the summer serials will actually be used by the Res F, especially given that the Res F will have a component being put through with each Reg F rotation.  The latest I have is that there is no plan at present to use the contracted August serials and that the Res community is currently re-examining this whole thing.  The serials could well go to small Reg F sub-units or not used at all.

There are a variety of problems connected with the summer serials:

-  How to decide which Coy Gps (1 per Area) will go through?
-  Who pays for transport, Class A, etc.?
-  Which has the higher priority - CMTC serials or individual summer training?
-  What standard are the Res units to be held to?
-  What role does OPFOR play?
-  What do the Reserves get by way of benefit, particularly when we realize that most of the instrumented kit isn't used by the Reserves?

Lots of questions and few answers.  This hasn't moved at all since I first became involved with this (on the peripheries) two years ago.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Jul 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> There is now some doubt that the summer serials will actually be used by the Res F, especially given that the Res F will have a component being put through with each Reg F rotation.   The latest I have is that there is no plan at present to use the contracted August serials and that the Res community is currently re-examining this whole thing.   The serials could well go to small Reg F sub-units or not used at all.



The points seem valid. Even worse, I'm not shocked or suprised by it.


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## pbi (2 Jul 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> There is now some doubt that the summer serials will actually be used by the Res F, especially given that the Res F will have a component being put through with each Reg F rotation.   The latest I have is that there is no plan at present to use the contracted August serials and that the Res community is currently re-examining this whole thing.   The serials could well go to small Reg F sub-units or not used at all.
> 
> There are a variety of problems connected with the summer serials:
> 
> ...



Our point of view in 38 CBG once the Managed Readiness (TF) program stood up was that we were probably not going to see these former "Res" serials anyway. We fully expected that the pri for Res slots would go to those Res Coy Gps doing DLOC trg(as it should). But, to be honest, if all we were going to get out of it was a single coy gp anyway, it wasn't much of a loss. Summer remains the time for us to fight the IT fight-as the death of ACTIVE EDGE showed, the conflict with IT and CT in the Res is hard to resolve if we try to cram everything into the summer-IT just takes too long and consumes too many of our resources. We traditionally do our Bde Lvl 4 FTX in early May.

Cheers.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (2 Jul 2005)

Exactly - and this has been going round and round since 2002, when the only area really interested in using the allocated Res F summer serials was LFWA.  The others saw it (as I recall) as being of very limited value.  There remains, though, much potential for the dismounted company suites of kit procured by the project.


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## McG (2 Jul 2005)

Thoughts on CMTC from the thread "Modular Manoeuvre Battalion."


			
				Michael Shannon said:
			
		

> CMTC has an interesting dilemma. How far to you dumb down the enemy? A clever enemy combat team fighting on it's own ground and armed with simulated MBTs and ATGW will be able to crush a LAV equipped bn in the attack. It's quite possible that even a force armed only with RPGs, mines and small arms will be able to fight the LAV force to a standstill. The results could be counter productive. Your unit is going on ops and you spend three weeks being pummeled, how's your morale?
> 
> How much lee way will the enemy force have? How much deception can they use? Who has the initiative? What is the force ratio? How are Cdn commanders to react to casualties? We've seen what casualties actually do to Cdn ops in Afghanistan. I assume we will suspend reality on this score.
> 
> Can you imagine the mayhem a hundred keen troops given free rein will play? I must admit free play enemy would be fun but I think there will be considerable constraints placed on the enemy. We can't embarrass the CO can we.


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## pbi (2 Jul 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> Exactly - and this has been going round and round since 2002, when the only area really interested in using the allocated Res F summer serials was LFWA.   The others saw it (as I recall) as being of very limited value.   There remains, though, much potential for the dismounted company suites of kit procured by the project.



Can that gear be used outside the CMTC environment? Because if it can, we'd much rather use it in our Bde AO than go through all the hassle of dragging people to Waimwright to do Lvl 3/4 trg. We can (and regularly have...) do that type of trg quite well ourselves. If we can do the trg locally, we will be able to do it more often and get more people through it.

Cheers.


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## Scoobie Newbie (2 Jul 2005)

Not that I'm personally interested (and this may have been brought up before) but is the Enemy force going to be a posting like in Kalifornia or a tasking?


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## Mortar guy (2 Jul 2005)

> Can that gear be used outside the CMTC environment? Because if it can, we'd much rather use it in our Bde AO than go through all the hassle of dragging people to Waimwright to do Lvl 3/4 trg. We can (and regularly have...) do that type of trg quite well ourselves. If we can do the trg locally, we will be able to do it more often and get more people through it.



pbi,

You may already be aware of this but as part of the WES contract, we are buying the following:

- Instrumented BG WES suite + OPFOR for CMTC
- Non-instrumented Cbt Tm WES suite + OPFOR for CTC
- 13 x non-instrumented dismounted infantry company suites + OPFOR

Those 13 dismounted coy suites are available for local training and, in my opinion, would be ideal for those Res Bdes that aren't sending Coy Gps to CMTC in any particular year. I know that DAT and DLSP have not yet worked out exactly where these 13 suites will go but my infantry math tells me it works out to one suite for each Reg and Res Bde.

MG


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## Teddy Ruxpin (2 Jul 2005)

You're bang on.   The original non-instumented suite was meant for Gagetown (if I recall correctly).   The other suites were added later.

The problem is that they have not worked out who will control the new dismounted suites.   LFDTS wishes central control (ie: allocation by CMTC), while others want them permanently distributed.   Once that's worked out, it's all good.

By the way, CFL:  there are a significant number of pers posted to the OPFOR (can't remember the numbers right now).  It will be augmented by taskings as required.  If you need specifics, I can provide them on Monday from work.

TR


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## McG (3 Jul 2005)

CFL said:
			
		

> Not that I'm personally interested (and this may have been brought up before) but is the Enemy force going to be a posting like in Kalifornia or a tasking?


There are permanent OPFOR positions.  I think it is a rifle coy, tank tp, engr tp, and a few other elements.  Posting messages have already been cut for guys to start filling it this summer.


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## TCBF (3 Jul 2005)

Some interesting points above.  lets see;

1. Reserve serials:  Time to pee or get off the pot here, lads.  we are paying CUBIC 10 million bucks a year for the privledge of giving us a game of laser tag second to none.  If the Militia decides they don't want to play, because the troops they purport to be able to lead might lose confidence in their leaders once they all end up with little red lights flashing on their harnesses, it might be time to evaluate the money spent on the Militia.  An individual would have to be an IDIOT to turn down a learning experience that a fully instrumented serial would provide.  Don't bother asking CUBIC for the money back, either. (C, U, Bastids In Court=CUBIC).

2. OPFOR will be task tailored for the TF, msn, and BTS.  Last fall, at Suffield, upon hearing that a BG could only launch 13 of 24 Challenger 2s across the LOD, the Brit Bde Comd immediately adjusted the OPFOR to keep the exercise realistic.  OPFOR is a trg tool - no more, no less. This ain't a total freeplay 'CERTAIN CHALLENGE 88' in Bavaria.  OPFOR will be given orders and missions to accomplish as well.  OPFOR will include Terrorists, COB (Civillians on the Battlefield) and all kinds of nasty stuff.  It might not be 3rd Guards Tank Army of the GSFG, but it will still give you a hard time.

3.  The non-instrumented gear is just a teaser, the full meal instrumented deal is the way to go.  why seetle for less?  

4. "The others saw it (as I recall) as being of very limited value."  I admit, there are a lot of people out there who think anything more than signing in and going straight to the Mess is of limited value.  Hopefully, as we put the next generation through a fully instrumented mnvr box, they will identify all of their slackers and non-hackers and cull their respective herds.  One can only hope.  eventually, people will be joining because of the stories they heard of how great those summer serials could be.  We will have two Militias: One made up of those who have done it, and one made up of ythose who walk in their shadow.

Tom


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## Teddy Ruxpin (3 Jul 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Some interesting points above.   lets see;
> 
> 1. Reserve serials:   Time to pee or get off the pot here, lads.   we are paying CUBIC 10 million bucks a year for the privledge of giving us a game of laser tag second to none.   If the Militia decides they don't want to play, because the troops they purport to be able to lead might lose confidence in their leaders once they all end up with little red lights flashing on their harnesses, it might be time to evaluate the money spent on the Militia.   An individual would have to be an IDIOT to turn down a learning experience that a fully instrumented serial would provide.   Don't bother asking CUBIC for the money back, either. (C, U, Bastids In Court=CUBIC).



I agree 100%.  However, as I pointed out, there are some serious problems with the execution of a serial consisting of a single company per year, dismounted, in Wainwright.  Until they're worked out, I wouldn't be counting on seeing Res F rotations anytime soon.  I know that gets various people connected with LFDTS and CMTC riled up, but there is.  A more constructive approach would be of assistance to everyone. 

As an aside, this isn't entirely Res F driven.  There's a school of thought that believes a "break" between rotations two and three would be a good thing and that believes the Reserves shouldn't be using CMTC independently anyway.  Thus, Reserve sub-units are embedded with their affiliated Reg F "task force".  The Col Blimps would be staying home regardless, doubtless harumphing to Reserves 2000 about the "old days".

As for the "two tier" Res F, I could argue that there's been one for at least ten years...we're already there.


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## Infanteer (3 Jul 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> As for the "two tier" Res F, I could argue that there's been one for at least ten years...we're already there.



No kidding - it droved me up the wall to come home from tour only to be dealing with troops that were telling me and the section commander that they couldn't make it for training because of the need to study for tests or because their other job was more important.... :threat:


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## TCBF (3 Jul 2005)

"As an aside, this isn't entirely Res F driven.  There's a school of thought that believes a "break" between rotations two and three would be a good thing and that believes the Reserves shouldn't be using CMTC independently anyway.  Thus, Reserve sub-units are embedded with their affiliated Reg F "task force". "


-Sadly true.  if we DON'T use CMTC for the summer serials, the Militia could rapidly fall behind the curve on this.  Not all reservists will end up in a Regular TF, and we have to find some way for the folks who have been holding the unit together for the last 1,000 Tuesday nights to come out and experience this.

As to the "break", the mtd eqpt fleet may be in pieces, but there is no reason we should not be able to field the WES kit and the Observer/Controllers. We ARE paying for the gear and the serial, one way or another.

The biggest stumbling bloch I can see is that we just plain run out of Mo, either from to many TFs, or some funding dispute where the summer serials start to come out of annual man-days, or some other idiocy.

Other than that, I think this is pretty well a case of "Build it, and they will come."

Tom


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## Donut (3 Jul 2005)

A couple of points I'd like to add to this, not trying to hijack it or dispute what's been said here already:

TCBF, when the US openned their NTC, they initially relieved commanders who failed on the exercises.  This practice was stopped, IIRC, because it's a learning experience, it's where commanders are supposed to make their mistakes, learn from them, and improve.  I agree it's going to be pretty crappy for morale, but I think a lot of troopies can already identify the tactically-impaired among their leadership.  Perhaps this will cement that opinion, but it may also dispell some of it, too.  If it's a pre-depolyment validation ex, that might be something else entirely.

Infanteer, there ARE jobs more important then the Mo.  What about the Com Res who also works for CSCE monitoring chatter, the Infantry WO who's also a Fire Dept battalion chief, or (cough) the medic who puts in 22 shifts a month in a real patient care environment.  They make greater contributions in a peace-time nation in their civilian employment then in their cadpats.  I know, from experience, how frustrating this is to junior leadership, but it's a bigger issue then at the coal face, and requires a national solution.

That being said, those people who are incapable of foresight in scheduling their work and school lives should reevaluate their commitments to the CF, or have it reevaluated for them.

Now, if we can commit to Mo training time at CMTC well in advance, and stick to it, perhaps attendance can become a litmus test of the reservist and the unit's abilities.

DF


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## Pikache (3 Jul 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> "As an aside, this isn't entirely Res F driven.  There's a school of thought that believes a "break" between rotations two and three would be a good thing and that believes the Reserves shouldn't be using CMTC independently anyway.  Thus, Reserve sub-units are embedded with their affiliated Reg F "task force". "
> 
> 
> -Sadly true.  if we DON'T use CMTC for the summer serials, the Militia could rapidly fall behind the curve on this.  Not all reservists will end up in a Regular TF, and we have to find some way for the folks who have been holding the unit together for the last 1,000 Tuesday nights to come out and experience this.
> ...


The question is how long will these serials be? More importantly, how many people can actually show up to form a company? 

The ever present res problems...


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## Teddy Ruxpin (3 Jul 2005)

RoyalHighlandFusilier said:
			
		

> The question is how long will these serials be? More importantly, how many people can actually show up to form a company?
> 
> The ever present res problems...



If I recall correctly, the serials ended up to be nine days _actually training_ - one per LF Area in the summer time - after the deployment, redeployment, etc. are factored in (using the well-known Res F "two week" rule).  The force structure was/is for a dismounted company "group", fully instrumented (which means that CUBIC provides all the feedback, weapons effect simulation, etc.).

Attendence is one major issue.  The Res F is already to have a group go through as part of each Reg F serial.  These will be the "sharp end" guys, IMHO.  Then, if the other serials are to see any use, the Res F will have to generate four more company groups.  The serials aren't large enough to act as an Area concentration, so the sub-units proceeding through CMTC would have to be selected somehow.  This complicates things even more - who gets to go?  For Roto 12, we had to go national to generate a single company for deployment.

Finally, funding is (as far as I know) an Area/Bde/unit responsibility.  Factor in pay, airlift, etc. and it becomes quite expensive - all to train a very select group of Reservists.

There is no doubt that we are building an amazing facility in Wainwright and that the training value will be enormous for those soldiers given the opportunity to participate.  Getting the Reserves involved is a "must", but the mechanics of actually doing so are more complicated than meets the eye.

Cheers,

TR


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## Mortar guy (4 Jul 2005)

Perhaps a solution to the reserve question could be found in those 13 dismounted suites we bought. They could be controlled centrally by the LFAs (or the regional JTFs soon, I guess  ;D ) and could be used for summer concentrations for those reservists not lucky enough to go to CMTC with a CRIC or a an augmentee. Each area would then have 2-3 suites they could use to run reserve coy gps through force-on-force training. It isn't ideal but it would go a long way to improving mo' training.

MG


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## Infanteer (4 Jul 2005)

ParaMedTech said:
			
		

> Infanteer, there ARE jobs more important then the Mo.   What about the Com Res who also works for CSCE monitoring chatter, the Infantry WO who's also a Fire Dept battalion chief, or (cough) the medic who puts in 22 shifts a month in a real patient care environment.   They make greater contributions in a peace-time nation in their civilian employment then in their cadpats.   I know, from experience, how frustrating this is to junior leadership, but it's a bigger issue then at the coal face, and requires a national solution.
> 
> That being said, those people who are incapable of foresight in scheduling their work and school lives should reevaluate their commitments to the CF, or have it reevaluated for them.
> 
> Now, if we can commit to Mo training time at CMTC well in advance, and stick to it, perhaps attendance can become a litmus test of the reservist and the unit's abilities.



I know, but I am (seriously) talking about swapping Starbucks for the area concentration.

You said what I said, time to reevaluate priorities.  If your job is really important (like the one you mentioned) and your attendence is going to be spotty, then perhaps it is time to get out and quit taking up the position.


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## TCBF (4 Jul 2005)

Some good thinking on the dismounted WES gear.    Hopefully, it can be booked by and delivered to local units for some of their training during the year.   Advantages: The normal WES ones, plus building interest and familiarity with the kit.   Disadvantages: Could become the sole focus ('Lets have a WES-EX'), rather than just a trg tool, and actually detract from trg if used improperly.   You know what I mean: Serials to Fort Knox being devised solely as a PX visit, etc.

Tom


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## Teddy Ruxpin (4 Jul 2005)

Mortar guy said:
			
		

> Perhaps a solution to the reserve question could be found in those 13 dismounted suites we bought. They could be controlled centrally by the LFAs (or the regional JTFs soon, I guess   ;D ) and could be used for summer concentrations for those reservists not lucky enough to go to CMTC with a CRIC or a an augmentee. Each area would then have 2-3 suites they could use to run reserve coy gps through force-on-force training. It isn't ideal but it would go a long way to improving mo' training.



As I recall, that was the original idea:   1 suite for CTC, 9 x CBGs, 3 x CMBGs = 13 suites...   I gather, though, that LFDTS is reluctant to lose control of both the equipment and the training.   The suites may well be available for "sign out".   Watch and shoot.

As for two types of Reservists, my experience tells me that the problem is MUCH worse with Sr NCOs and officers than with the soldiers.   There's still a lot of "Old Militia" out there who seem (for reasons that escape me) to look down on those with tours, etc..   Where it becomes an issue is when one of these "old" guys suddenly realizes - after 20+ years flopping - that having a tour is a good thing for promotion and begins to clamour to go overseas - without the experience or ability to be gainfully employed on operations.   But I digress...    ;D


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## Haggis (4 Jul 2005)

Teddy Ruxpin said:
			
		

> There's still a lot of "Old Militia" out there who seem (for reasons that escape me) to look down on those with tours, etc..   Where it becomes an issue is when one of these "old" guys suddenly realizes - after 20+ years flopping - that having a tour is a good thing for promotion and begins to clamour to go overseas - without the experience or ability to be gainfully employed on operations.   But I digress...    ;D



I am one of those "Old Militia" types who screamed to get a tour for over 10 years but, because of my rank, I was always denied.  Finally I got one and was surprised to see the reaction of my peers: envy.  I think a lot more senior Reservists would go on tour if they had a guarantee that they would be coming home to thier old civvie job.  I know this has been discussed to death in other threads, but that is the single biggest reason I've heard from my peer group for not going on a tour. (No. 2 is "My wife would kill me!)

Taking this one step farther, I'd bet that many more senior reservists would go to CMTC as Coy/Sqn/Bty HQ staff if there was more incentive to be there.  Remember the old CRE?  The Unit Viability Assesments?  Regiments would pull out all the stops to get soldiers out on those because thier futures hung in the balance.  There was incentive not to fail, but there was little to no reward for success (other than survival).  It was not a fun time in the Reserves to be constantly living in the shadow of the sword, even if you aced your CRE the previous year.

Failure at CMTC should be a warning that things need to be imporved.  Continued failure should result in a change of leadership.  Success, however, should be rewarded.  That's something we're not very good at.


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## Donut (4 Jul 2005)

Infanteer, the surest sign of intelligence is the degree to which someone agrees with you  ;D

Haggis, spot on...

We can have all the jammy training available to the reserves, if we can't get our people out to it, it doesn't make a lick of difference.


DF


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## McG (4 Jul 2005)

I know that BTE 05 is supposed to be the last BTE and from then on it will be BG lvl validations.  However, if in 5 years the army decides it needs Bde exercises again, will CMTC have the resources to sp such a large scale ex?


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## Donut (4 Jul 2005)

Another concern with reducing the size of these ex is that we lose the institutional experience in moving, feeding, supplying, and otherwise supporting those numbers of pers.  We've already lost a fair amount here in the west with the demise of Western Challenge, which I think was probably reflected on Active Edge 04.  

While we're training up the pointy end with these, are we letting our tail whither away in capability?  Once we've lost this knowledge as an institution, how costly is it going to be to regain it?

Can we simulate supporting a larger force with these serials in any meaningful way, and are the serials going to be long enough to tax the logistics support these troops are going to need in places like Kandahar, without the option of sending CQ's running down to Canadian Tire for more widgets?

Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics 


DF


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## TCBF (4 Jul 2005)

"Another concern with reducing the size of these ex is that we lose the institutional experience in moving, feeding, supplying, and otherwise supporting those numbers of pers.  We've already lost a fair amount here in the west with the demise of Western Challenge, which I think was probably reflected on Active Edge 04"

-We lost most of that in 1993, When we pulled 4CMBG out of Germany.  No longer would we deploy sub-units as part of units operating in a Bde that was operating in a (US or GE) Div operating in a (US or GE) Corps.  We no longer mnvr with the adult Armies, and it shows.  (Some of those formerly 'Adult'armies aren't doing so good either).

-On the minus side as well, we now have commanders who have never had to do their operational ('Real" as compared to garrison/administrative) job with several levels of bosses breathing down their necks, in an environment and at a pace they themselves do not control.  That is much more alarming than Johnny not getting enough C77 Ball last year.

Tom


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## Donut (4 Jul 2005)

I'm not saying this is a new phenomenon, but it's another sign of the ongoing degredation of capabilities.

DF


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## McG (5 Jul 2005)

> *'Laser tag' prepares troops for front lines*
> Training program at CFB Wainwright means more troops, $500 million in improvements
> Jim Farrell
> The Edmonton Journal
> ...


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## cbt arms sub tech (21 Nov 2005)

Anyone know the status of CMTC, haven't heard much of it as of lately, with all the chats about task force's & army transformation....

Thanks in advance....


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## TCBF (21 Nov 2005)

I guess we are still here. SAT II is in full bloom.  Ran right through the wknd, and I go on shift up the hill at EXCON in 24 minutes... gotta go.

Tom


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## cbt arms sub tech (21 Nov 2005)

Thanks Tom, how are the trials going?


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## ZipperHead (21 Nov 2005)

I know a tiny bit (received a briefing from an MWO from there as part of Professional Development last week), but you should wait for TCBF to weigh in, as he is "in the sh!t", so to speak. In other words, he works there, so it won't be a post of "I know a guy, who knows a guy, who HEARD.....".

From what I heard/saw, it's pretty impressive, and I think it'll bring our military (joint ops are possible) up more than a few notches in the ability scale. Should be interesting to see in action.

Al


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## mustang82 (23 Nov 2005)

I'm sure it will eventually be a great place for training, but so far, it doesn't hack.  I was there for the validation of FO 01-06 (1 PPCLI) and FO 02-06 (2 R22R).  The FIBUA training was in sea containers, the scenarios were poorly set up, the organization was brutal.  You can see that there was a lot of effort to get this going, but there's a long way to go yet...Hopefully it will be better for the next groups that pass through in April


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## Gunner (23 Nov 2005)

> Insert Quote
> I'm sure it will eventually be a great place for training, but so far, it doesn't hack.  I was there for the validation of FO 01-06 (1 PPCLI) and FO 02-06 (2 R22R).  The FIBUA training was in sea containers, the scenarios were poorly set up, the organization was brutal.  You can see that there was a lot of effort to get this going, but there's a long way to go yet...Hopefully it will be better for the next groups that pass through in April



Thanks for you 2 cents Mr First Time Poster.


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## Infanteer (23 Nov 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Thanks for you 2 cents Mr First Time Poster.



...with an empty profile.


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## TCBF (23 Nov 2005)

"I'm sure it will eventually be a great place for training, but so far, it doesn't hack.  I was there for the validation of FO 01-06 (1 PPCLI) and FO 02-06 (2 R22R).  The FIBUA training was in sea containers, the scenarios were poorly set up, the organization was brutal.  You can see that there was a lot of effort to get this going, but there's a long way to go yet...Hopefully it will be better for the next groups that pass through in April "

- A brutal assessment, but not entirely without merit. 

I Just got off shift at EXCON as the HICON/TFHQ desk.  Some pretty vigorous genetic selection going on west of the Battle River as we speak.   Good points collected all around.  Do some of the scenarios still need a bit of work?  Yep. Are there still tech issues?  Yep.  Will it be frustrating at times for soldiers coming through (and the ones posted here)? Yep.

But as every week goes by, it gets a bit better.

Tom


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## Sandbag (23 Nov 2005)

Are you going to be ready for SAT III?  Is it still the intention to test the system to the max in vehicles and personnel? Final stupid question, how much does the weather affect the system, in that I mean are there restrictions to when you can run TFs through and when you can't?

Sandbag


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## TCBF (23 Nov 2005)

SATIII? 

"A crystal ball, he needs,  hmmnnghh!" - Yoda

The gear is contractually obligated to function at -18C

Tom


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