# The CF policy on laser eye surgery for Pilots? Unfair?



## mdh (19 Jan 2005)

I recently noticed that the US Navy allows its pilot candidates to get laser eye surgery in order to qualify as a pilot and it's led me to question the CF's policy on it.  Lots of potentially excellent pilot candidates are being turned away because of it, and I wonder if you guys feels it's time to revisit the Air Force's position? IIRC serving pilots in the CF are in fact authorized to undergo the surgery to maintain their visions standards - yet potential applicants aren't. I know life ain't fair but sometimes you gotta wonder. Just curious as to what the board's take on it is?


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## aesop081 (19 Jan 2005)

In relative terms, this is a new issue for the CF and i am sure that i due time , the policy will change. Even though the US is forging ahead, i don't think we know enough about the long term effects, if any, that are involved, to rush into anything. I know that for myself, if i was to get it done, i would be grounded for 6 months at least.

i don't think that the policy is unfair, just prudent, but i do think that in time, it will all change.

Inch, your take ?


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## mdh (20 Jan 2005)

Hi Aesop081,

I see your point on the "prudence" of the CF's current policy - it's an argument I can accept (I could even understand it if it's a traditional way to narrow down the considerable list of folks who want to be military pilots) - except that it's not applied consistently. If it's prudent not to let recruits in with eye surgery, why is it prudent to let serving pilots get the operation? If anything you could argue that it's less prudent for serving pilots/air crew (in some cases flying high performance CF-18s) to be allowed to get an operation deemed experimental or lacking in sufficient research. I guess my question boils down to this: what does the US Navy know that the CF doesn't?


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## Inch (20 Jan 2005)

Actually, we're not permitted to get it done, ever. We can wear corrective lenses and contacts, but laser surgery is out of the question at this point. I'm not too sure where you heard that but it's wrong.

I agree with aesop, the long term effects of it aren't known and we're just being prudent and cautious. The effects of low pressure (ie altitude, and before you mention it, airliners are pressurized to about 8,000ft) or the effects of "G" aren't known either, or at least to the point to satisfy DRDC and the CF. I've also heard that night vision is not all that good for people after the surgery, thus it's not perfect and will not be permitted for CF pilots until it is further researched.

To answer your question, I have no idea what the USN knows that we don't. I do know that I can't even take Advil and go flying while they allow their pilots to take "uppers" to keep them awake which is a strict no-no here.


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## Zoomie (20 Jan 2005)

mdh said:
			
		

> <snip>(I could even understand it if it's a traditional way to narrow down the considerable list of folks who want to be military pilots) -



Bingo, you hit the nail on the head there MDH.  Even if tests and data come back from the USN stating that LASIK is OK for aircrew, I think that the CF will continue to screen out anyone who has had the surgery. My father has had the surgery and he still needs glasses, it isn't perfect, which is what the CF wants of its potential pilot candidates.


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## mdh (20 Jan 2005)

Actually, we're not permitted to get it done, ever. We can wear corrective lenses and contacts, but laser surgery is out of the question at this point. I'm not too sure where you heard that but it's wrong.

Thanks for clarifying that Inch - thought I got that tidbit off another thread on this site but I probably misread it.

Bingo, you hit the nail on the head there MDH.  Even if tests and data come back from the USN stating that LASIK is OK for aircrew, I think that the CF will continue to screen out anyone who has had the surgery. My father has had the surgery and he still needs glasses, it isn't perfect, which is what the CF wants of its potential pilot candidates.

Right Zoomie, I get it, 

Thanks for your insight guys, cheers, mdh


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## Armageddon (23 Jan 2005)

It is of my understanding that at the present time there are a limited number of aircrew members that have had it done and are being allowed in to roles such as navigator.  From what I know they are being studied as to what the effects actually are on these people.  Right now this is only second hand information as I know of one person personally that has had it done.  But I will check into it and get you more detailed info as soon as I can.  Either way I think it is still a long long way off before the CF reverses their decision on the matter for pilots and aircrew in general.


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## Torlyn (23 Jan 2005)

Armageddon said:
			
		

> It is of my understanding that at the present time there are a limited number of aircrew members that have had it done and are being allowed in to roles such as navigator.   From what I know they are being studied as to what the effects actually are on these people.   Right now this is only second hand information as I know of one person personally that has had it done.   But I will check into it and get you more detailed info as soon as I can.   Either way I think it is still a long long way off before the CF reverses their decision on the matter for pilots and aircrew in general.



I had laser surgery done, and have had no problem applying for ANAV, the recruiting office told me that it only applies to pilot applicants.

T


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## mdh (23 Jan 2005)

Good afternoon gents,

Appreciate your comments on the topic.  I think Zoomie has highlighted the real reason for this policy - it's a performance restriction (based on real tangible concerns as noted by Aesop and Inch) that helps shrink the gene pool of pilot applicants - not that's there anything wrong with that since standards are standards in my view.  However I'm not sure that it's going to be a defensible policy over the long run. As more research becomes available (assuming it shows a clean bill of health) the policy might look more and more archaic and arbitrary.  The US Navy's air service is hardly a second-rate outfit, and I suspect a barrack-room lawyer out there will challenge the CF policy one day and force a re-evaluation. Perhaps that would lead to an opening up of additional talent applying to the MOC who would otherwise not qualify? Would that not be a good thing?


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## Inch (23 Jan 2005)

mdh, you may see some barrack room lawyers try to make a play at this, but unless they can produce verifiable medical evidence that no hazards exist for pilots receiving laser treatment, you'll continue to see it as a block to any would be pilots who've had the procedure.

If they do open it up, it can't be a bad thing, it'll be far more competitive in the application process since there would logically be more applicants, thus you'd end up with better people getting the job (theoretically).


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## saintjoseph (1 Feb 2005)

I have the understanding that DRDC has recently finished with a study on the possibility of allowing laser eye surgery for pilots and decided that for now it will not be allowed, for the aforementioned reasons of how such a surgery will affect the eyes at low pressure and under high strain and forces. i think they primarily looked at older types of laser surgery though. A flight surgeon in edmonton was also mentioning that there is some uncertainty about how laser surgery affects the structural integrity of the eyeball, and whether it heals well enough to be able to withstand the stresses inherent in combat flight.

I was told by my opthamologist (former eye-sight tester for CF, and apparently a laser eye surgery pioneer in Canada) that it isn't only the USN that allows pilots with laser surgery, but that many other coutries allow it too...Australia, I think the UK does, and other european nations. I can also see the CF's point...they are allowing us to fly multi-million dollar aircraft, and they don't want to have such an unknown messing those aircraft up. Plus, maybe the number of applicants that have had laser surgery is only a fraction of pilot applicants anyways, even if they could be top notch pilots.

It is amazing what the laser surgery can do though....a buddy of mine had terrible eyes, and after surgery he now has 20/15 vision...amazing!


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## mdh (1 Feb 2005)

Hi Saintjoseph,

I don't want to be seen flogging a dead horse on this since I really have no personal stake in this whatsoever, but if it's true that several airforces have given a green light to eye surgery beyond the USN, then the CF's policy could be declared at best "extraordinarily conservative" in its estimation of the potential risk. 

But as has already been noted on this thread, I suspect it may have less to do with science than convenience - if you can demand physical perfection in candidates, and still get a good number of applicants, then why not?   

But I would go a step further and posit this radical proposition - I don't think it matters one iota if you wear glasses (assuming they're not coke bottles of course) as a pilot flying modern military aircraft including fighters (although I know my pilot friends may strongly disagree).   My father eventually wore glasses while flying CF104s and it didn't impact his capabilities in the slightest (in fact he claimed to be able to see bogies well before his wingmen since he was corrected to better than 20/20, how's that for irony?). 

Infantry guys, for example, are much more likely to get smacked around in the mud and ooze and they are allowed to have corrected vision. And although having the ability to see the Hun in the Sun is still a vital skill for for combat pilots a lot of visuals are right in front of your nose in the cockpit HUD.

Certainly in the commercial flying world it's no longer an issue (even though at one time Air Canada insisted on candidates having 20/20 IIRC) - and yes I realize that military flying has other physical demands. 

I would sugges that the days of open cockpit flying are long over, and even though the air force insists on 20/20 - it could be described as a quaint holdover from the past, and - as a requirement in its pilot candidates - not much more justifiable than insisting on all candidates having a tailwheel endorsement or knowing how to handprop your machine. 

 I guess you can start flogging me now instead of that dead horse  cheers all, mdh


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## George Wallace (1 Feb 2005)

mdh

The days of "open cockpit flying" aren't really over.  As many of our pilot candidates do not move on to Fighters, most land up in Transport or Helicopters.  To this day we still fly a lot of missions in our choppers without doors - not exactly the "open" that you may have ment, but still open.

With regard to corrective lenses, it is a good question.  Many pilots wear sunglasses, so how would corrective lenses be any great problem?

GW


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## Inch (1 Feb 2005)

mdh said:
			
		

> I would sugges that the days of open cockpit flying are long over, and even though the air force insists on 20/20 - it could be described as a quaint holdover from the past, and - as a requirement in its pilot candidates - not much more justifiable than insisting on all candidates having a tailwheel endorsement or knowing how to handprop your machine.



Not too sure what you mean by open cockpit, care to elaborate before I respond? Tailwheel endorsements? Never heard of it, in fact I'd never flown one before the Sea King and hand propping really ceased once we started getting bigger engines. Try hand propping a 12 cylinder RR Merlin and hand propping a turbine is pretty futile. Maybe those were requirements in the 20's, but certainly not much later than that.

Speaking of getting smacked around, try doing low level nav in a helo at 250ft on a summer day. Those glasses better be well fitted to your head because they will get bumped around.

George, not too many people wear sunglasses, only multi guys cruising around at 15,000+ ft. All helo pilots wear helmets as do the fast movers and our helmets have 2 visors, a clear one and a tinted one. Sunglasses are a pain and I've never seen anyone wear them while wearing a helmet.


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## George Wallace (1 Feb 2005)

Inch

Those visors used to be quite popular with us Tankers, when we had the old AFV helmets.

GW


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## Inch (1 Feb 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Inch
> 
> Those visors used to be quite popular with us Tankers, when we had the old AFV helmets.
> 
> GW



They do have a high LCF! I thought you guys would be more in favour of goggles due to the dirt blowing around, I guess it's no different than walking under the windstorm that is rotorwash.


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## mdh (1 Feb 2005)

Try hand propping a 12 cylinder RR Merlin  

Ahhh yes Inch... the sound of a 12 cylinder RR Merlin - now that's enough to make a man blind with sentiment.   Brings to mind one of my first flying experiences as a child in an RCAF Dakota back in the day in Gimli, Man. now a sad and crumbling relic of past glories - if only we could bring back the Dak...


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## huskot (23 May 2005)

According to the Canadian Forces website, all pilots have to have 20/20 vision UNCORRECTED. This is probably a stupid question, since getting laser eye surgery is CORRECTING your vision, but would laser-corrected vision be acceptable?

Thanks for any and all replies!


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## nULL (23 May 2005)

unfortunately, no.


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## CBH99 (23 May 2005)

Thats too bad, I'm sure the Canadian Forces lose a lot of good candidates that way.  Very few people still have 20/20 vision at the average age of application for a pilot, especially in the modern world of computer monitors and TV's.  We SHOULD be a bit more accomodating, like the US Armed Forces, who allow their pilots to have had laser-eye surgery.


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## Badanai (23 May 2005)

Why would you tell them you had it done???? If you are just joining the military!!!!! just a thought

I had my laser eye surgery done when I was in the infantry. my vision cat as a V3 and dropped to a V4 After my surgery I was up to a V1
and no problems ever since


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## nULL (23 May 2005)

The problem, as i understand it, is a practical one. The effects of a sudden loss of pressure or ejection sequence on a "surgically enhanced" eye are not completely understood. (Just imagine your corneas peeling off...!) When one considers the high cost of training a military pilot, it would only make sense for the CF to pick the candidates most likely to succeed - no doubt this is why the inital personal, educational, and physical qualifications are so high.


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## nULL (23 May 2005)

Cutter2001ca said:
			
		

> Why would you tell them you had it done???? If you are just joining the military!!!!! just a thought
> 
> I had my laser eye surgery done when I was in the infantry. my vision cat as a V3 and dropped to a V4 After my surgery I was up to a V1
> and no problems ever since



Not a good idea. My father is a physician who has performed air force medicals. (My "big goal" in life is to be a military aviator, but due to be own V3 vision will not be able to accomplish this in Canada.) Anyway, he told me that pilots have a whole battery of medical tests thrust upon them, including photographs of their corneas - presumably for comparison "before" and "after" shots for use following something as traumatic as an ejection sequence. Like most types of surgury, I would imagine that laser eye surgury leaves behind some type of mark, making it difficult to conceal. At any rate, you don't really want to intentionally lie on your medical; I've heard that it is grounds for dismissal.


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## Torlyn (23 May 2005)

nULL said:
			
		

> including photographs of their corneas



Yuppers.  They do this during the Medical portion of your Aircrew selection, and yes, they can tell.  Myself and the WO had a great chat about what a good job they did on my eyes...  Can't fly the damned things, but apparently I'm okay to navigate them.  

T


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## I_Drive_Planes (23 May 2005)

They actually do a test called Corneal Topography specificaly to see if you have had laser eye surgery (because it is impossible to tell by just looking at your eye).   They essentially take a sort of photo of your cornea, and when you look at it it looks like a topo map of a hill (with different colours for different elevations), you can see as it tapers and get higher and becomes a peak.   If an eye which has had laser surgery the image tapers up to a point, and then flattens right out, or even dishes in a bit.   That was a really neat test to see the results of.   If you lie and say you've never had laser surgery they will find you out, and you will probably lose a chance at any other military career because for some reason they have a particular distaste for dishonesty.



			
				Cutter2001ca said:
			
		

> Why would you tell them you had it done???? If you are just joining the military!!!!! just a thought



If I'm not mistaken you are required to divulge your complete medical history, and IIRC other army.ca members have been slapped for counselling prospective recruits to be dishonest (and yes failure to disclose=dishonesty) on their applications.   I'm sure we don't want people lying on their applications, getting thrown out of the process and saying "But some guy on army.ca told me I should."   Be careful about the advice you give, someone might just take it!

Planes


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## huskot (23 May 2005)

Nah, I'd never lie during my physical. Hell, I never lie... period. I'm the worst liar on the face of the earth.
Thanks so much for your advice, guys. I guess becoming a pilot isn't possible then... in that case, I'm NOT getting laser surgery. It's glasses for me!


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## Sam69 (23 May 2005)

This used to be a policy that I ardently supported. However, given the advances in laser eye surgery, the fact that the majority of CF pilots will not fly fast air, and our growing problems attracting new pilot applicants, I think it is time to start considering those who have corrected 20/20 vision. Of course, you would still likely need some reasonable limits on how great of a correction that you would accept. At the very least, it is time to recruit a few people with corrected vision to start to collect data on the effects their surgery has on their performance in the cockpit (if any).

To mitigate the risk to the individual and the system (i.e. we pay $5M to train them on the CF-188 and then lose them when they degrade to V3), we could simply restrict entrants who have corrected vision to non-fast air cockpits.

Sam


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## FSGT Lampkin (24 May 2005)

My recruiter told me "we're letting our NATO allies test it first (laser eye surgery for pilot), and then may potentially bring it in".......would it be worth going to to States for pilot if you couldn't do it up here for eyes? i really have no knowledge on the US Airforce training program and how it relates to ours.

Thanks


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## Bo (24 May 2005)

FSGT Lampkin said:
			
		

> My recruiter told me "we're letting our NATO allies test it first (laser eye surgery for pilot), and then may potentially bring it in".......would it be worth going to to States for pilot if you couldn't do it up here for eyes? i really have no knowledge on the US Airforce training program and how it relates to ours.
> 
> Thanks



You have to be a US citizen to join their military.


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## mdh (3 Jun 2005)

For those interested in the US Navy's policy on laser eye surgery here is a link that provides details - PRK is deemed acceptable for pilot candidates:  

http://navymedicine.med.navy.mil/bumed/index.cfm?docid=12108

cheers, mdh


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## FSGT Lampkin (17 Jun 2005)

During my aircrew medical at DRDC yesterday i saw on the doctors desk a report about 20 pages long entitled "A Comprehensive Report of the Effects of Refractive Laser Surgery on Aircrew: Feb 2005". In hindsight i probably should have asked him if i could read it lol, but ill have a look online to see if i find anything


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## Hunter911 (17 Jul 2005)

Apparently there is also a problem with constant high altitudes after having laser eye surgery... something about how it starts to wear off? Thats just something i hear from a friend of mine... 

Another question Ive asked time and time again and have been told to use the "search" function is...Do you need 20/20 vision to become a sniper? And if so, is Laser eye surgery acceptable?

Thanks


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Jul 2005)

Hunter911 said:
			
		

> Another question Ive asked time and time again and have been told to use the "search" function is...Do you need 20/20 vision to become a sniper? And if so, is Laser eye surgery acceptable?



Use the "Search" function.


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## Hunter911 (18 Jul 2005)

I suppose i deserved that...


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## CF-22 Raptor (26 Jul 2005)

I've been told you need perfect vision to be a sniper, but IMO i think that laser would be ok since you wouldn't be flying planes or choppers if you're a sniper.


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## dk (26 Jul 2005)

Don' know if you have the answer for the sniper question, but here's a good thread that helped me with my Vision questions...

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31590.0.html

There is a link to to see what each military occupation requires for vision on the first post of that thread.


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## Hunter911 (26 Jul 2005)

Thank you both very much for your input


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## Grunthor (29 Aug 2005)

What i've never understood is why we can't just wear glasses or contacts.   I can see for fast air that they would probably get in the way but for any other plane we fly i just don't get it.  Anyone care to explain this to me?


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## Inch (29 Aug 2005)

Grunthor said:
			
		

> What i've never understood is why we can't just wear glasses or contacts.   I can see for fast air that they would probably get in the way but for any other plane we fly i just don't get it.   Anyone care to explain this to me?



You can wear glasses, once you're trained.


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## medicineman (29 Aug 2005)

I seem to remember the Brits were having problems with their chopper pilots with NVG's and the laser surgery - they were having problems with some of the subtle colour/shade differences you get.  As you can imagine, that could become a bit of a problem during NOE flight, since there are only really shades of green/black for your background - if you misjudge something, it could be a career detriment so to speak.  Mind you, this study was going on in the mid 90's - they may have changed their "view" as it were on things.

MM


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## Grunthor (30 Aug 2005)

Inch said:
			
		

> You can wear glasses, once you're trained.


Ya but that doesn't exactly help me because I'm not trained yet, and I need glasses.  Sadly I think I'm going to have to move to Britain or the States in order to become an air force pilot .  Oh well, maybe by the time i finish university Canada's policy will have changed  :-\.


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## Bograt (30 Aug 2005)

Grunthor,

I think you would have a better chance if you grew wings. I can't even image in the timeframe or hurdles you would have to undergo to get into this trades with other nations. I'm sure it can be done, but there are easier ways to slip the bonds of Earth. If you really want to fly, here are my suggestions:

1. Civilian ticket. 
2. Apply for other aircrew trades (NAV, FE, or join and later remuster as a ASEOP etc...)
3. Infantry- They are always flying somewhere.


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## dearryan (31 Aug 2005)

Grunthor said:
			
		

> Ya but that doesn't exactly help me because I'm not trained yet, and I need glasses.  Sadly I think I'm going to have to move to Britain or the States in order to become an air force pilot .  Oh well, maybe by the time i finish university Canada's policy will have changed  :-\.



Remember years ago you could be found medically unfit by the CF if you had laser surgery done prior or during employment. However now many of the restricted trades (air crew, SAR, etc) will allow people whom have had the surgery done. So....your statement of,"by the time I finish university" is a possibility....a very slim one. You never know. I heard our friends to the south are doing some testing regarding the situation. Evolution!!!

I think the recommendations from other members would be your best bet.

Ryan


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## medicineman (31 Aug 2005)

I'm pretty sure that the aircrew restriction on laser eye surgery while you're in the service only applies to back end crew - those that require A2/4 medical categories.  I'm pretty sure that if you're a front ender at the controls, it's still a no no.

MM


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## dearryan (31 Aug 2005)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure that the aircrew restriction on laser eye surgery while you're in the service only applies to back end crew - those that require A2/4 medical categories.  I'm pretty sure that if you're a front ender at the controls, it's still a no no.
> 
> MM



It depends on whom you talk to and or what time of day it is. But I have asked soem "ranking" members that SOULD know the restrictions and there does not SEEM to be many. Could change by tomorrow. ;D

Thanks

Ryan


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## medicineman (31 Aug 2005)

This is an excerpt from the most current Flight Surgeon's Guidelines.

In June 1999, a panel of highly qualified specialists from across North America met at DRDC Toronto (formerly DRDC Toronto (CFEME)) to discuss the issue of laser refractive surgery within the context of Canadian Forces air operations. As a result of these deliberations, the following revisions to the Flight Surgeon Guidelines has been implemented:


Laser refractive surgery will continue to be medically disqualifying for either entry into or retention in the Pilot classification. Quality of vision and the response of the altered cornea to ambient flight conditions continue to be a concern. Ongoing research in the United States Navy and the United States Air Force will be monitored closely with the view of revising this directive for pilots in the future.


Laser refractive surgery is considered acceptable for entry into and retention in all non-pilot aircrew classifications providing certain criteria are met. These criteria are:

1.  The member must accept financial responsibility for the procedure and any career implications resulting from a less than desired outcome. 
2.  The member must obtain permission from his or her Commanding Officer for any absences or temporary employment restrictions resulting from the procedure (see below). 
3.  There must be a mandatory six-month observation period from the time of surgery until return to flight status or entry into training. 
4.  The Central Medical Board at CFEME Toronto must assess each member's refractive surgery documentation (current status as assessed by an ophthalmologist and report to be at least 6 months post-op) prior to entrance into training or resumption of aircrew duties. If in the opinion of CMB further ophthalmology consultation is required, the member will be assessed at CMB by the CMB consultant in ophthalmology. Travel for members, to and from CFEME for these assessments, will be treated as medical referrals. The cost's associated with these referrals will be born by the member's medical section as per Unit SOP's. 
5.  The member's post-surgical refractive correction must not vary more than 0.50 diopters over the six-month observation period. 

It is recognized that with current surgical techniques, a small number of patients have a loss of Best Corrected Vision (BCV). The current aircrew standards require correction to 6/6 in one eye and 6/9 in the other. If a member's BCV is below these standards after surgery, they would be rendered unfit for flight duties.


For purposes of data collection and in order to establish a longitudinal study group, the first 50 non-pilot aircrew members and/or aircrew candidates taking advantage of this revised policy will return to CFEME at 18, 30 and 42 month intervals (post-surgery) for a full ophthalmologic reassessment. 


As I said - if you are A2 or A4, no biggy after your category is up.  For an A1 slot (Pilot) - still a no go.  You can slip in V category  - all it does is either changes that you may need corrective lenses or have restricted status applied to flight (ie  - no solo missions).  But for pilot, you must meet V1 upon enrollment.

Here is the link for the Flight Surgeon's Guidelines for Visual requirements: http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medical/visreq_e.html#_Toc30396231

MM


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## dearryan (31 Aug 2005)

Them's the facts. But just so we are clear...I did not mean pilots when I said,"air crew". "Can I be a pilot if I have had laser surgery" has been and will continue to be discussed at nauseom.

thanks for the facts. I probably had to call 10 members to get that info 2 months ago. 

Ryan


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## koss78a (7 Sep 2005)

hello in regards to lasik eye surgery , if someone is in the military and wants to get lasik done?
would the military accomodate a schedule for the person to get it done? would the military pay for it?
thank you


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## medicineman (11 Sep 2005)

If you want it, it's out of your own pocket and your own time - most friends of mine who had it done did it on annual leave, since it's a totally elective thing.

MM


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## Melbatoast (19 Jan 2007)

We all know that laser vision correction is currently disqualifying for pilot candidates, but a personal situation has recently made the situation a little more important to me.

This document - http://www.toronto.drdc-rddc.gc.ca/medical/visreq_e.html - is the only thing I can find anywhere on the subject.  Note that the document is dated 2003, and that the laser correction review was conducted in 1999.

This is important to me because I just wrote the aircrew selection test for ANAV.  I didn't pass for that occupation (not unexpected, my BPSO says he's never seen anyone pass), but did pass for pilot.  Not only that but it was like I had a strong pilot aptitude, so much so that the BPSO was excited and even though I wear glasses right now, said I could be considered at a lower V-level.  Then we got to the laser surgery thing, and it so happens I had no-touch laser PRK done 13 (thirteen) years ago.  I don't regret it because I wouldn't be doing anything worthwhile (to me) in the military right now without it, but it's still a kick in the ass because I would very likely kill anyone to be a pilot.

At any rate I'll re-write the test later this year, with some preparation this time, and hopefully get flying soon-ish as a navigator.  But if anyone has heard anything, it may be small comfort and hope.

p.s. I'm worse than 20/20 right now because I had the surgery done when I was too young, 18 years old.  I've never had any effects.


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## Michael OLeary (19 Jan 2007)

If this requirement ever changes, I expect it will be posted here before th ink on the approving signature dries.


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## Strike (8 Apr 2008)

Reviving a dead topic to save bandwidth from starting a new thread...

CANFORGEN 069/08 CAS 014 081205Z APR 08
LASER (EYE) REFRACTIVE SURGERY IN CF AIRCREW
UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. 6600-1 (CAS) 20 MAR 08 
HTTP://VCDS.MIL.CA//CAS/DMCS2005/FILES0/DMCS-17864.PDF 
B. 1150-1 (SSO AV MED) 22 OCT 07 
C. RODS 1150-1 (CAS MED ADV) OCT 07 
D. AMA DIRECTIVE 400-02 LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY FOR CF AIRCREW 
HTTP://WINNIPEG.MIL.CA/1CDNAIRDIVSURG/FLTSURG/GUIDELINES.HTM 
E. FSG 400-01 VISUAL STANDARDS FOR CF AIRCREW 
F. A-GA-005-000/AG-001 CHAP 7 - MEDICAL STANDARDS FOR CF AIRCREW 



THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO COMMUNICATE RECENT CHANGES MADE TO CF POLICY ON LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY IN AIRCREW 


IN THE PAST, PILOT APPLICANTS WHO HAD UNDERGONE CORRECTIVE LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY WERE NOT ELIGIBLE FOR ENTRY INTO AIRCREW OCCUPATIONS. SERVING PILOTS WERE ALSO DENIED THE OPPORTUNITY TO UNDERGO LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY TO CORRECT FOR REFRACTIVE ERRORS 


AT REF A, CAS ENDORSED THE RECOMMENDATION FROM THE AEROMEDICAL POLICY AND STANDARDS COMMITTEE (REF B) TO APPROVE LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY FOR CF AIRCREW INCLUDING PILOTS. THE RECOMMENDATIONS WERE MADE FOLLOWING THE CF REFRACTIVE SURGERY SYMPOSIUM (REF C) AND ARE CAPTURED IN THE AEROSPACE MEDICINE AUTHORITY DIRECTIVE 400-02 LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY FOR CF AIRCREW (REF D) 


REFER TO REF A OR REF D FOR THE FULL LIST OF APPROVED/NON-APPROVED PROCEDURES 


IN ALL CASES, APPLICANTS AND SERVING MEMBERS MUST STILL MEET THE VISION STANDARDS DETAILED AT REFS E AND F 


AS THE CF DOES NOT YET INCLUDE LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY IN ITS SPECTRUM OF CARE, BOTH THE DECISION TO UNDERTAKE SUCH SURGERY AND THE ADMINISTRATIVE ARRANGEMENTS ARE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CF MEMBER. PLEASE NOTE HOWEVER THAT WRITTEN CHAIN OF COMMAND APPROVAL IS STILL REQUIRED BY SERVING MEMBERS PRIOR TO THE COMMENCEMENT OF ANY LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY. FOR DETAILS CONCERNING ELIGIBILITY AND STANDARDS, INDIVIDUALS ARE ENCOURAGED TO CONTACT EITHER THEIR LOCAL RECRUITING CENTRE OR THEIR LOCAL FLIGHT SURGEON. 


FUNDING: A CF FUNDING POLICY FOR LASER REFRACTIVE SURGERY IS UNDER DEVELOPMENT. UNTIL THIS POLICY IS PROMULGATED, EXPENSES FOR THESE PROCEDURES MUST BE BORNE BY THE CF MEMBER 


QUESTIONS ON THIS MATTER CAN BE DIRECTED TO CAS MED ADVISOR CAPT (N) COURCHESNE AT 613 995-4742 AND MAJOR T. SARDANA AT 613 943-6917 OR LCOL BAIN, HEAD OF THE AEROSPACE AND UNDERSEA MEDICAL SCIENCES CENTRE AT CFEME TORONTO AT 416 635-2024


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## WannaBeFlyer (8 Apr 2008)

That's good; perhaps now the CF will no longer be short of Pilot applications.  

Wow. First they revive CEOTP, then they lower the vision requirements, and now they have approved LASIK. Good news for those who have been waiting for this policy to change!


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## George Wallace (8 Apr 2008)

MG said:
			
		

> ........... Good news for those who have been waiting for this policy to change!



 ;D

For some.  Others are now too old.   ;D


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## Kruggle (9 Apr 2008)

MG said:
			
		

> That's good; perhaps now the CF will no longer be short of Pilot applications.



I thought the CF had way too many Pilot applications?


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## cp140tech (9 Apr 2008)

He tacked that winking smiley in there to indicate sarcasm I think.


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## Kruggle (9 Apr 2008)

Aw. I was happy for a second as I am still trying to figure out whether I want Pilot or Aerospace. I was told today that my CFAT qualified for both and I need to know my first choice before my interview.


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## dwalter (9 Apr 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> ;D
> 
> For some.  Others are now too old.   ;D



And some of us are still too young... To get LASIK surgery a person has to be over 21 years old, and go through a better of tests to determine suitability for the surgery. Not everyone who says "I want to get laser surgery" can actually get it. Not unless they feel like going into their dark basement and getting a friend to shine a laser pointer in each eye for a while. =P


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## benny88 (9 Apr 2008)

Intelligent Design said:
			
		

> Not unless they feel like going into their dark basement and getting a friend to shine a laser pointer in each eye for a while. =P



   I am at your service IntD.  >

   What are everyone's opinions on Lasik/corrected vision in different types of aircraft? I am in no way knocking people who fly different types, but I would think that glasses/contacts would be more appropriate flying multi-engine than say fast jets or Tac Hel, for safety reasons (Yankin and bankin, could lose a contact? And yes, I know multi-engines do tactical descents and what-not, please don't jump on me.) Also, how do contacts or laser treated eyes react to pressurized cockpits found in fast jets and multi-engines? (and training a/c, for that matter.)
   Do you think they should differentiate and restrict people with different types of correction to different types? I have no firm opinion because I don't have enough experience, but it's something I've been thinking about. Your thoughts would help.

Cheers.


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## belka (11 Apr 2008)

Lazer Eye Surgery now approved.



> Aircrew - including pilots - will now be permitted to undergo certain types of Laser Refractive Surgery (LRS). In the past, pilot applicants who had undergone corrective LRS were not eligible for entry into aircrew occupations and serving pilots not able to undergo LRS.
> 
> The policy change resulted from an in-depth study and review of LRS procedures - advances in technology, outcomes of research and community standards of practice are among the reasons for the policy change.
> 
> ...



http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/news_e.asp?cat=114&id=5838


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## Nfld Sapper (11 Apr 2008)

News Release

News Release
New Policy on Laser Refractive Surgery for CF Aircrew
NR 08.002 - April 11, 2008

OTTAWA – Canada’s Air Force has recently approved a new policy that permits serving and potential aircrew to undergo certain types of Laser Refractive Surgery (LRS). 

The Chief of the Air Staff approved the new policy based on a recommendation by the Aeromedical Policy and Standards Committee. This recommendation came as a result of an in-depth study and review of LRS procedures. Advances in technology, outcomes of research and community standards of practice in the field of LRS are some of the primary reasons for the adoption of this new policy. 

“I am very pleased with the decision to allow serving and potential aircrew to undergo Laser Refractive Surgery,” said the Medical Advisor to the Chief of Air Staff, Navy Captain Cyd Courchesne. “It is an effective procedure that will make it possible for many talented individuals, who would otherwise not have met the aircrew visual standard, to pursue an exciting career operating CF aircraft.”

This new policy applies to all CF aircrew occupations including pilots.

The new policy requires that serving members and applicants who have chosen to undergo LRS meet standard aircrew vision requirements before flying in CF aircraft and that their vision be monitored throughout their flying career. As well, the policy permits only specific types of laser eye surgery that have a very successful track record. It should be noted that the decision to undergo LRS and the cost of the procedure, at this time, rests with the individual. 

The Canadian Forces has not had any difficulty attracting aircrew applicants in the past several years. However, having an even larger pool of applicants may result in a more competitive selection process, thus ensuring the Air Force has the best aircrew responding to the demanding security environment of the 21st Century.

-30-

MEDIA REQUIRING FURTHER INFORMATION, PLEASE CONTACT: 

National Defence Media Liaison Office at 1-866-377-0811


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