# Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address)



## ggranatstein

Can anybody explain saluting to me?

How? When? Who to Who? Under what circumstance? Finally, why?

I know this might be an easy question, but I searched the forum and it isn‘t already answered.

I am to be sworn in tomorrow as a 2Lt. and am a but nervous about the whole thing!

Thanks!


----------



## Gunnar

I can tell you why.  Because the salute originated as the gesture for opening the face plate of a medieval helm so your commander could see your face.  I‘ll leave the how to the experts.  But I believe in the CF, not indoors, and not when not wearing headdress.


----------



## Marti

i remember reading that it was good form for an officer to return a salute with something like ‘good evening‘ rather than a ‘thank you‘. something to keep in mind, but in the grand scheme it probably doesn‘t make much of a difference.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

We just had a huge discussion of this not to long ago on this very forum.


----------



## Sundborg

basically if an NCO greets you or walks past you outside, they must salute you, and you can return the favour; that is, if the NCO is in uniform.  If you are not wearing a head dress, then you do not salute back.  No saluting is done in doors, unless, correct me if I‘m wrong, an NCO is reporting to an officer, or an officer is reporting to one of higher rank.  Saluting is basically showing respect to the officer and the queen.  Saluting is also done during any country‘s colours.  There are other reasons too, but I can‘t think of them at the moment, but that is basically the scoop.


----------



## Korus

You do salute indoors. At my armouries, there are certain hallways where you must salute any officers when you‘re comming to work, and when you‘re leaving for home.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

The thing to remember is that you are saluting the Queen (i.e. the "commission") therefore if the officer hasn‘t been commissioned, then coming to attention will suffice as paying respects to that officer.  Here at CTC gagetown, it‘s rare that we salute anything that is an Ocdt. or 2Lt.

Bzz


----------



## shaunlin41

Saluting indoors totally depends on the unit.
In LFCA TC Meaford saluting is done indoors unless it is a designated no saluting zone i.e the mess.  If  no headdress coming to attention will due.  This is a question you will have to ask the unit where you are posted.


----------



## Korus

And if you do it wrong, some people won‘t hesitate to let you know..


----------



## Jarnhamar

In the field you find someone you don‘t like and you salute them to see if there‘s any snipers around    

The form of saluting we use started with knights etc.. but didnt saluting start with the romans or something?


----------



## Pikache

Romans did salute with right hand over heart thumping jesture thing.


----------



## Proud Civilian

I know this may seem odd but, if you rent the Robert Reford movie The Last Castle (it‘s a newer film) he gives quite a good explanation of saluting. Also the act of saluting wether Roman, Greek (they raised their hand to their shoulder) or modern has a history in paranoia, it was done so that a lower ranking soldier or officer could display their hands thus showing that they were not in possesion of a weapon that could be used to kill the superior officer.


----------



## ronjeremiesdong

Maybe I have seen too many movies, but I had the assumtpion that you didn‘t salut outdoors, not indoors due to and enemies attention being drawn to a target of opportunity, e.g. an officer. I remember having to salut our officers anywhere in the regiment except the mess of course. I always thought that as a recruit, one should be informed of all these nuances in the form of a book similar to the ‘warrior‘s pam‘, which was indispensible in regards to field and war craft. Recruits shouldn‘t have to learn things little by little and sometimes the wrong way - maybe I‘m a bit anal, but I like carved in stone protocol, not by way of mouth which seems to always contradict the next person.


----------



## Michael Dorosh

The best advice, in all seriousness, is to stop thinking about it.

If you are in doubt, salute.  I‘ve never gotten in trouble for saluting "when I shouldn‘t."  On the other hand, I have been corrected for not saluting, though that hasn‘t happened in many years.

If anyone is really oh so concerned that "gee, I don‘t want to look stupid", you may as well give up on a career in the Forces right now.  Your first years are all about paying dues and learning things the hard way at times.

Salute often, salute with pride, and don‘t be too chicken to salute because it makes you feel uncomfortable.  Paying respect isn‘t something we‘re supposed to be afraid of.

And when you walk past the National Flag flying outside the building you work in, salute that too - every time.

Salute the flag outside of Wendy‘s when you stop for a hamburger on the way to parade.

Okay, don‘t salute the flag on the back of that **** ‘s Angel, but you get the idea.

I can‘t imagine anyone getting in too much trouble for having "too much respect."

And once you‘ve been in longer than ten minutes, you will start to get an appreciation for where and when to salute; as pointed out, every station or base is a bit different.


----------



## Pikache

Question: When two guys are walking by an officer, do both of them salute, or only one of them salute?


----------



## MikeM

If one is a higher rank then they are to salute as I have been told, or if theres just 2 people walking and are the same rank, usually the one walking closest to the officer will salute while the other checks his arms to his side. Or they both can salute.


----------



## Caz

All the info you need to know about saluting is found in A-PD-201-000/PT-000 (CF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial).

From Chapter 1, Section 2:  





> FORMED MILITARY GROUPS
> 6. Compliments on behalf of a formed military
> group are normally given by the person in command
> of the group.
> 
> 7. At the halt:
> a. The person in command will order the group
> to attention before saluting.
> b. When the group is armed, it shall be brought
> to attention and then may be brought to the
> shoulder arms position before the person in
> charge gives the appropriate salute.
> 8. On the march:
> a. The person in charge of a formed military
> unit shall personally salute when passing
> junior officers (Captains and Lieutenants)
> superior to himself in rank. When passing
> senior officers superior to himself in rank, the
> person in charge shall order EYES
> RIGHT/LEFT and salute with the hand while
> turning head and eyes in the required
> direction.
> b. When bearing arms at the trail, the person in
> command shall shoulder arms before
> proceeding as detailed in subparagraph a.
> above.
> 
> INDIVIDUAL
> 
> 9. Officers shall salute all officers of higher rank
> and shall return all compliments paid them. Senior
> officers receiving compliments from marching troops
> on a ceremonial parade shall hold the salute as each
> individual component passes directly by in review.
> 10. Non-commissioned members shall salute all
> commissioned officers.
> 11. Officers and non-commissioned members
> not part of a formed military group shall pay individual
> compliments to an approaching higher ranking officer
> (see also paragraph 12). The senior officer receiving
> the salute shall return the compliment, while military
> persons accompanying that officer give an eyes
> right/left in the same manner as saluting without
> headdress (paragraph 15) during the exchange of
> compliments or greetings.
> 
> 12. When an officer approaches a group of noncommissioned
> members, the senior of the group or
> the person who recognizes the officer first shall take
> command and call the group to attention: the senior
> or person in charge shall then alone salute. Junior
> members shall draw their seniorâ€™s attention to
> approaching officers if the circumstances require and
> allow.
> 13. Individual compliments to a formed military
> group on the march and under the command of an
> officer shall be paid by halting, turning to face the
> group and saluting. The salute should be maintained
> until the entire group has passed.
> 14. While bearing arms, individuals shall pay
> compliments to officers by saluting at the shoulder
> arms position. Sentries shall pay compliments
> accordance with Chapter 10, Section 4.
> 15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress,
> compliments shall be paid by standing at attention.
> on the march, arms shall be swung and the head
> turned to the left or right as required.
> 16. Nurses white caps are considered marks of
> qualification rather than headdress. Officers wearing
> this cap shall pay and receive compliments as if they
> had no headdress.


----------



## Caz

CFP 201, continued:   





> CIVILIAN DRESS
> 17. Appropriate compliments shall be paid when
> recognizing an officer dressed in civilian clothing.
> 18. When dressed in civilian clothes, all
> members shall stand at attention and male members
> (less Sikhs) shall remove headdress, on any
> occasion when a salute would be correct in uniform
> and extreme winter weather conditions allow. On the
> march, the headdress is raised or removed, if
> applicable, and the head turned right or left. When
> headdress is not worn, it is correct to turn the head
> as required and offer a polite greeting.
> 
> SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
> 
> 19. Buildings. Salutes are not given indoors in
> either public or service buildings except on parades,
> ceremonial occasions, in areas so designated by
> commanders, or when entering or leaving the office
> of an officer who should be paid compliments by
> virtue of his rank or appointment. Further:
> a. it is correct to turn the head and offer a polite
> greeting when meeting an officer in the
> common area of a public or service building;
> and
> b. it is not customary for those other than Sikhs
> working in a building to wear headdress
> when visiting another office in the same
> building. In this circumstance, compliments
> are paid by briefly coming to attention at the
> office door.
> 20. Cenotaphs. Officers and men shall salute
> individually and formed military groups shall pay
> compliments when passing the National War
> Memorial and cenotaphs to military dead.
> 21. Colours. Individuals and formed military
> groups shall pay compliments to uncased Colours,
> except when the Colour is part of an escort to the
> deceased during a funeral (see subparagraph 23a.).
> a. Halted armed groups shall present arms.
> b. Military groups marching past uncased
> Colours shall give eyes right/left.
> c. See also paragraph 30.
> 22. Religious Services and Buildings.
> Conventional marks of respect and courtesy shall be
> observed during religious services and in places of
> worship, depending on the customs of the religion
> involved and the faith of the member (see A-AD-265-
> 000/AG-001, CF Dress Instructions, Chapter 2,
> Section 3 for further explanation).
> 23. Funerals. The following compliments shall
> be paid at state, military and civilian funerals:
> a. The remains of the deceased take seniority
> and alone receive compliments during a
> funeral.
> b. Members shall wear headdress and pay
> respects by saluting when passing the casket
> at a vigil.
> c. Formed military groups shall be halted and
> turned to face a passing funeral procession,
> and the officer or member in charge will
> salute the deceased while passing. Individual
> compliments shall be paid in a similar
> fashion.
> d. Individuals and formed military groups
> bearing arms shall salute a passing funeral
> procession by presenting arms.
> e. Salutes, as above, shall be accorded the
> casket during interments.
> f. At the end of a Service funeral, the officiating
> chaplain will proceed to the foot of the grave
> to pay his respects. Service members should
> then proceed to the foot of the grave, in order
> of seniority, to pay individual respects by
> saluting. When numbers warrant, members
> may approach in small informal groups.
> g. See also paragraph 26.
> 24. Guards and Sentries. Detailed instructions
> for paying compliments by guards and sentries are
> found in Chapter 10.
> 25. Courtesy Salutes
> a. Foreign officers shall be saluted in the same
> manner as Canadian officers unless the
> circumstances clearly dictate otherwise.
> b. Service members may express their respect
> for individual civilians by using a salute as a
> formal means of greeting or farewell.
> 26. Memorial Services and Funerals.
> Compliments to the dead shall be paid during the
> sounding of the calls â€œLast Postâ€ and â€œRouseâ€ when
> they are used in memorial services and funerals.
> Compliments will commence on the first note and
> terminate on the last of each call when sounded.
> Compliments shall be paid as follows:
> a. All ranks who are not part of a formed
> military group shall salute.
> b. Formed military groups will be brought to
> attention and all officers shall salute. A Royal
> or General Salute will be ordered if
> appropriate. The funeral guard will present
> arms, the escort will remain at the order,
> officers that form part of the escort will salute
> with the hand. In the latter case the salute
> shall be held for the silent interval between
> â€œLast Postâ€ and â€œRouseâ€.
> c. On defence establishments, all vehicles in
> the vicinity shall be stopped and the
> occupants shall dismount and pay
> compliments.
> 27. Lecture Rooms
> a. When a visiting officer or dignitary senior to
> the instructor enters a lecture room, theatre,
> etc., the instructor or senior member present
> shall call the group to attention. All members
> of the class shall sit at attention, arms
> straight at the side, head and eyes to the
> front and heels together.
> b. Where it may be impracticable or hazardous
> to call the group to attention, the order,
> STAND FAST, will be given. Members of the
> group shall suspend all possible action,
> without causing physical danger to
> themselves or others, or damage to
> equipment, until the order CARRY ON is
> given.


There‘s a couple of more pages on this, but this covers the brunt of it.

-R


----------



## P Kaye

A couple of points of protocol I've always been a little unsure of.

1) Suppose an officer with head-dress on passes by an NCM without head-dress.  The NCM checks his arms to pay a complement.  Should the officer return the compliment with a salute, or should he simply check his arms back (he has a head-dress on, but he wasn't actually saluted).

2) Suppose an officer joining a new unit introduces himself (or herself) to an NCM working at his unit (say a clerk).  Is it appropriate for the officer to shake the NCM's hand when the introduction is made?

3) When an NCM salutes an officer, is it appropraite for the officer to say "thank you"?  Really the NCM was just following protocol and saluting the commission, so I am inclined to think that thanks are not appropriate, but I know some officers who do say "thank you". Comments?

Subtleties like this aren't really taught at BMQ or BOTP.


----------



## Meridian

> Suppose an officer with head-dress on passes by an NCM without head-dress.  The NCM checks his arms to pay a complement.  Should the officer return the compliment with a salute, or should he simply check his arms back (he has a head-dress on, but he wasn't actually saluted).



I was told that checking of the arms IS paying a compliment...  You just do not pay it via salute when you yourself are not wearing headdress.

Given the story of the knight raising his armour to show respect (and himself), it wouldn't make much sense if you weren't wearing any covering at all, I guess.

Could be wrong, but thats what I was taught.


----------



## George Wallace

P Kaye said:
			
		

> A couple of points of protocol I've always been a little unsure of.
> 
> 1) Suppose an officer with head-dress on passes by an NCM without head-dress. The NCM checks his arms to pay a complement. Should the officer return the compliment with a salute, or should he simply check his arms back (he has a head-dress on, but he wasn't actually saluted).




Yes, the officer should return the compliment with a salute.




> 2) Suppose an officer joining a new unit introduces himself (or herself) to an NCM working at his unit (say a clerk). Is it appropriate for the officer to shake the NCM's hand when the introduction is made?



In most circumstances it may be the courteous thing to do.




> 3) When an NCM salutes an officer, is it appropraite for the officer to say "thank you"? Really the NCM was just following protocol and saluting the commission, so I am inclined to think that thanks are not appropriate, but I know some officers who do say "thank you". Comments?
> 
> Subtleties like this aren't really taught at BMQ or BOTP.



Again, a courtesy would be nice......Usually both would use a courtesy, such as "Good Day, Sir"...."Good day,_______"

GW


----------



## Inch

GW already answered the first question.

For the second one, there is nothing wrong with shaking  hands, I always shake hands with someone the first time I meet them, be it the CO, XO, Chief Clerk or a one hook apprentice technician.

Third, for saluting, I usually use a compliment, Good Morning, Good Afternoon, Good Evening, whatever the case may be if I don't know the individual, if I do, then I'll say "Good Morning Jim", (first name since I'm Air Force and that's how we operate   ). I'd have to say that salutes are pretty rare where I work since most of the people I meet are on the hangar floor or on the flight line and headdress is no-no in those locales.  Sometimes you're just thinking about something else or they catch you by surprise and all you can manage to say is Thank you. I don't think it's a sign of disrespect or anything like that, there's usually more factors in play than what meets the eye.

Don't sweat it, just watch the guys that have been around for a while and mimic them until you get a feel for it.


----------



## tomahawk6

As far as a handshake I think that would be initiated by the senior man. If none is offered then the junior shouldnt initate.


----------



## Armymedic

I concur with all above.

Remember, as an officer extending courtesy will always ensure people see you in a positive light.


----------



## Sailing Instructor

The checking arms thing seems to be a myth (or perhaps an old custom) as it is not mentioned in the drill manual, ch 1, s 2. 



> 15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress,
> compliments shall be paid by standing at attention. If
> on the march, arms shall be swung and the head
> turned to the left or right as required.
> 
> 18. When dressed in civilian clothes, all
> members shall stand at attention and male members
> (less Sikhs) shall remove headdress, on any
> occasion when a salute would be correct in uniform
> and extreme winter weather conditions allow. On the
> march, the headdress is raised or removed, if
> applicable, and the head turned right or left. When
> headdress is not worn, it is correct to turn the head
> as required and offer a polite greeting.



I.e. just like civilians are supposed to do (but don't as it seems we need strict rules to continue formalities in society).   The checking arms is a compliment to be paid while at the double, as far as I know.

I've two questions of my own, though: 

1: para 13. of chapter, section 2 reads as follows:


> 13. Individual compliments to a formed military
> group on the march and under the command of an
> officer shall be paid by halting, turning to face the
> group and saluting. The salute should be maintained
> until the entire group has passed.



Does this mean, for example, that I would halt, turn, & salute a group being marched around base by a commissioned officer?   Or would this only apply to a squad of commissioned officers (e.g. a supernumerary division)?   I've never seen this done save on the march past & that is already covered in the manual (not to mention that the gp salutes the Reviewing officer 1st.   Certainly I've saluted officers marching formed military groups around--but only in the same manner as if they were alone.

Second question: para 28, part d reads as follows:


> 28. d. anthems are not sung when played as part of
> a salute, or on a parade other than a church
> parade (remembrance or commemorative
> service/ceremony). If ordered to sing on a
> drumhead or remembrance ceremony, the
> parade will be brought to attention and all will
> join in the singing of the National Anthem,
> officers do not salute.



Does this mean that one does not sing God save the Queen & O Canada only during the Royal salute/vice-regal salute?  Or does one not sing O Canada also when the flag is hoisted/lowered & a band is playing (because you are saluting but it's not the same sort of salute as the royal & viceregal salutes.


----------



## Armageddon

Paying respects as you would if it were just the one officer is generally acceptable as I have never heard anything nor have I ever seen/done anything to the contrary.


----------



## George Wallace

Sailing Instructor

You quoted "Para 15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention."   This after you made this comment: 





> The checking arms thing seems to be a myth (or perhaps an old custom) as it is not mentioned in the drill manual, ch 1, s 2.



May I ask you how you come to attention?

Most people I know come to attention by bringing their heels together, with their feet at approx a 45 degree angle and "checking their arms" to their sides...... 

GW


----------



## pbi

I agree fully with all of George W's original post.

However, on the issue of officers saying "thank you" in response to a salute or the paying of complements from subordinates, I have to side with our former Area Comd, (then) BGen Fenton, who was much opposed to this practice. His point was that even in civilian clothes there are correct ways to acknowledge complements, and saying "thank you" is not one of them. What are you thanking the subordinate for? The salute is not for you: it is for your commission. You have no actual business thanking them for anything. Thanking a person for saluting HM commission is presumptious (although rather common). IMHO, if you feel compelled to say something, try "Good Day" or "Carry on" or something else, but not "thank you".

Cheers.


----------



## Scott

OK, to throw a bit of a wrench in the gears - To you Officers...

You are out and about, on foot, and are approached by an NCM, you can tell he's trying to spot your rank and is getting a bit apprehensive, would you initiate contact with something like "Lovely Morning, isn't it?" or "How do you like this weather?" 

I have always found that the more "seasoned" Officers used to give us this little hint. Is this something you consider a practice or was I just dreaming it all? Having said this I only ever observed this happening in Gagetown, Greenwood and Shearwater, the latter two being air bases. 

Inch's comments struck a chord, I once had to escort a buddy to Greenwood to see the Dentist and was very surprised to be asked my first name by a Colonel and then have him shake my hand and give me his! Upon the standard, "Nice to meet you, Sir" I got back a big grin and, "No, it's Mike!" Took me a while to get used to that. Good thing I was thinking when I got back to Aldershot, it would have been a good one to see the Duty Officer's face when I called out, "Back with your man, Dave!!" I'm sure someone would have gotten a laugh out of it.

Sorry for the small hijack.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

For me I think its just good manners for an officer to say thank you or at least acknowledge your paying compliments other then a grunt which is what I get half the time.


----------



## Meridian

I suppose, PBI, the counter-argument is that you are thanking the member for respecting the commission.. As a representative of it, surely you are aloud to thank someone on behalf of it for respecting it?

If a foreigner is going on and on about how they love Canada, and how nice all "you  people are".. good manners would suggest saying something like "Thank you". While you  are not "all of canada", you do represent Canadians in the situation, and thus, thank you is warranted.

Just another p-o-v I guess...


----------



## Edward Campbell

Ivan Fenton passed on the wisdom which he learned about 30 years ago ... people who learned it 60 years ago passed it on to him, and they, in their turn, learned it from people who did their soldiering about 90 years ago, and so on.


----------



## P Kaye

Another twist:

Two officers walking down a hallway, one behind the other.  A Lt in front, and a 2Lt a few paces behind.  They pass some troops, who salute.  The Lt in front returns the salute.  What does the 2Lt behind do?  I don't think he should also return the salute (should he?), but should he check is arms, or do anything at all?


----------



## Meridian

I was told you check your arms.. Just as you do if there are three Captains walking together, they dont all salute, one will (usually the leading one, or hte one closest to the group) and the others will check.

But I could be entirely wrong.Just what I was taught and what I observed.


----------



## Sandbag

Sailing Instructor, no you do not sing during the Royal or Vice-Regal Salute.  My background on this is based upon three years as an HADC to LGov of Manitoba.  Regarding the Vice-Regal, this is practical as well as customary because near of the two anthems are completely played.  On many occasions I have seen the consternation of many civilian dignitaries when "all of sudden the music stops".

Regarding who salutes in the hallway, or whenever a group of officers are moving from one place to another, it should be the senior person return the compliments.  This seniority is determined by rank, position, commissioning date.


----------



## George Wallace

Depending on the spacing, he may return the salute also.  He should, if close to the other officer, do as he would in a group;  the senior salutes and the junior(s) come to attention cutting their arms smartly to their sides.

GW


----------



## Sailing Instructor

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Sailing Instructor
> 
> You quoted "Para 15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention."   This after you made this comment:
> May I ask you how you come to attention?



Pardon my ambiguity in quoting the drill manual. I was commenting that checking the arms _while on the march_ was not within the manual (& now that I've checked more thoroughly, it's not while double-marching either).  This would also suggest that when the sr officer returns the salute, other officers do not check their arms.  Perhaps verbally greeting the saluter would be good?

It seems to me that, as much as one salutes the commission not the individual, the exercise of saluting is extremely interpersonal.  One could justify saluting the individual officer by saying that he's earned the commission, so any respect contained within that commission is therefore transferred to him.  No?

Regarding the anthem-playing/singing: so I don't sing during the regal/viceregal salutes, but do I when the flag is hoisted & a band plays O Canada?  I did in sea cadets but that does not justify the practice, unfortunately.


----------



## Marauder

Mr. Kaye, I don't think you should go so far as to thank your troops for doing something we do to pay our respect to the commisson you have earned. However, it is nice when an officer will acknowledge your existence beyond returning the high five. If Bloggins gives a "Good evening, Sir" while passing by and saluting, it's nice if you, as an officer, give a little something back while returning the salute, like "good evening, Bloggins" as he passes by. Nothing huge, but it's a good way to show the troops you're paying attention and care enough to ackowledge them.

And the whole Air Force first name thing would drive me buggy. The mini-MCPL (RCR type, of course) that rides shotgun in my head while in uniform would bitch slap me if I ever tried that. LMAO


----------



## Meridian

Well if the troop says something to you, I can't imagine the officer not saying something equivalent back!

IMHO, that would be tantamount to the OFFICER disrespecting the commission.


----------



## PeterLT

Salute, or not to salute......that is the question. 

I used to tell my troops that if they are in a situation where they are in doubt what is the proper thing to do, then salute. Better to be a bit embarrassed at saluting a Corporal, then not to salute an Officer. I would imagine that rule could also apply to the 2nd Lt following someone of higher rank. Better to be thought a bit overzealous due to inexperience by the troops (they will forgive). If the senior Officer has an issue with it, they can sort it out in private.

As far as Officers being addressed by their first name, I would not only frown on it, I'd discourage it very heavily amongst any troops. It's a very bad habit to get into. While it may be socially acceptable at the ball diamond, it will be deadly on the battlefield. As a now retired soldier, I would advise any serving Officers regardless of branch or element not to fall into that trap, lest you pay for it in some desolate place when you need instant action. By allowing the troops to address you by your first name you give up your authority over them and that can be very costly indeed.

Peter


----------



## Pikache

The rule of thumb I go by is if you're on duty, rank and last name as per.

Off duty, if you're friends, first name.


----------



## Inch

PeterLT said:
			
		

> As far as Officers being addressed by their first name, I would not only frown on it, I'd discourage it very heavily amongst any troops. It's a very bad habit to get into. While it may be socially acceptable at the ball diamond, it will be deadly on the battlefield. As a now retired soldier, I would advise any serving Officers regardless of branch or element not to fall into that trap, lest you pay for it in some desolate place when you need instant action. By allowing the troops to address you by your first name you give up your authority over them and that can be very costly indeed.



Point taken, but allow me to explain a little. I believe the Air Force is the only place that that happens and it happens for the simple fact that in 99% of the situations that would require instant action, it's all Officers present and at that, usually all Capts sometimes with a Maj or two present. A Sea King crew consists of two pilots, one TACCO and one AESOp. The only NCM onboard is the AESOp and he's not in a position that would require "immediate action" as you put it. All he does is lock his harness and wait for instructions from the front end about what we want him to do. The aircraft captain has the authority WRT the aircraft regardless of rank, still though, the AESOp has every right to speak up if something seems out of the ordinary. It's very open to communication in an aircraft and I highly doubt that any fatalities would have been prevented if we used Rank and Surname vice first names.

The simple fact is that everytime we go flying we face stressful and potentially hazardous situations, our job can still kill us even during "normal" everyday ops. I dare say that the same can't be said for most other trades in the CF on a daily basis.


----------



## pbi

I guess I'm getting misunderstood here.

I agree fully and completely that if a subordinate salutes an officer (or otherwise pays complements) that the officer should reply in a polite and pleasant way: no questions on that: that is the way I like to be treated too by my superiors.

What I do NOT agree with is that officer saying "thank you", for the reasons I stated. He acknowledges the salute by saluting, or if he has no headdress or is in civvies or PT gear, by adopting a position approximating "attention" and turning his head and eyes in the direction of the subordinate. That, IMHO, is how he "thanks" (don't like that word in this case...) the subordinate for saluting.

The comment on the Air Force is understood and I know  first name basis is part of aircrew culture and has been for years. Seen. However, a former Inf Offr I knew who became a pilot years ago told me that where it can cause problem is amongst all those thousands of Air Force people who will never set foot in a plane except as a passenger. Particularly, he said, in situations like BDF, and ground search and rescue under demanding conditions, where they are called upon to do things that may be more "Army" than "Air Force" he stated that he had seen situations in which the "buddy" approach started to come undone.

However, I am a strong believer in separate services, each with their own culture for their own reasons. We Army (esp Cbt A) act the way we do for our own reasons, as do the "blue guys". Where the problem arises IMHO is when Joe the Supply Tech who just came off three years in Wing Supply arrives in Admin Coy of an Inf Bn and wants to call the CSM "Jim". This does not work,  but IMHO is an example of one of the inherent failings of Unification: the attempt to deny that there are separate military cultures for good reasons. As evolution since 1967 has shown us, these cultures are still strong and have survived the attempt to mush us all into one purple blob. Cheers.


----------



## thorbahn

While on this topic, I have a similar question. My question is regarding proper protocol when an NCM crosses paths with an officer in regular civilian life. I thought about this because when I went to get a haricut today, the barber informed me that a Major from my unit had been in just a few minutes prior. If I had walked in and he was sitting down getting his hair cut, would it have been appropriate for me to come to attention?


----------



## pbi

If you are a Class A Res, you are not subj to the Code of Service Discipline except at certain specific times, so the answer could be "you don't have to" depending on the circumstances. However, as a courtesy you could. If, on the other hand you are on full time service, then you must pay compliments at all times unless your unit/HQ/base has issued specific "no salute zone" instructions. For us RegF types, you don't stop being subject to the Code just because you are in civvies or downtown.

Cheers.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

In the armoured vehicle crews that I have been a part of there is a certain informality when on the tank, especially when on the IC (Intercom).  First names are not always used (although they often are), but nicknames or abbreviations come in.  It makes it faster to talk and is also a product of being in an AFV crew.  Once we are back in garrison, however, ranks and titles come back.  I'm sure each crew is a little different and this is just my own experience.

The whole rank and first names issue outside of unit time can be tricky in the reserves when superiors and subordinates can be peers in their civilian lives.  Go with your gut, but freely using first names is a step down a potentially slippery slope.  I went to school with many of my soldiers in my Troops in the Reserves and it was tough to strike a balance.  As for me, I addressed my superiors as "sir" regardless.

Looking at saluting, I'll fully support those here who have already stated that saying "thank-you" is not the way to return the paying of compliments.  Say something sincere (except for thankyou) and look the person in the eye.  If you know the person then try and say something like "Good morning Corporal Bloggins."  That being said, it can be a challenge to come up with original things to say if you get caught against the flow of traffic during lunchtime on the "yellow brick road" at the language school in St-Jean.  A simple "good morning etc" should suffice in these situations (I learned to carefully time my walks at meal times).

Cheers,

2B


----------



## Inch

pbi said:
			
		

> The comment on the Air Force is understood and I know first name basis is part of aircrew culture and has been for years. Seen. However, a former Inf Offr I knew who became a pilot years ago told me that where it can cause problem is amongst all those thousands of Air Force people who will never set foot in a plane except as a passenger. Particularly, he said, in situations like BDF, and ground search and rescue under demanding conditions, where they are called upon to do things that may be more "Army" than "Air Force" he stated that he had seen situations in which the "buddy" approach started to come undone.
> 
> However, I am a strong believer in separate services, each with their own culture for their own reasons. We Army (esp Cbt A) act the way we do for our own reasons, as do the "blue guys". Where the problem arises IMHO is when Joe the Supply Tech who just came off three years in Wing Supply arrives in Admin Coy of an Inf Bn and wants to call the CSM "Jim". This does not work, but IMHO is an example of one of the inherent failings of Unification: the attempt to deny that there are separate military cultures for good reasons. As evolution since 1967 has shown us, these cultures are still strong and have survived the attempt to mush us all into one purple blob. Cheers.



pbi, that's a great post. I agree, first names have a place and in most instances, the military isn't the place with the exception that I noted in my last post.  Even though I was on the "farm team" as an armoured crewman, I fully understand how and why the army does things the way they do and I wasn't criticising it at all.


----------



## Pikache

2Bravo said:
			
		

> The whole rank and first names issue outside of unit time can be tricky in the reserves when superiors and subordinates can be peers in their civilian lives. Go with your gut, but freely using first names is a step down a potentially slippery slope. I went to school with many of my soldiers in my Troops in the Reserves and it was tough to strike a balance. As for me, I addressed my superiors as "sir" regardless.



This does not address the issue of when an officer and a NCO are friends. 

I just think if a soldier is professional, he'd know the boundaries and ensure that the boundaries between friendship and professionalism is known between the two.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

RoyalHighlandFusilier,

You are certainly correct that friendship between ranks is a dynamic that must be considered.  

As an aside, I play hockey (on the Regimental C team) and our coach is a Trooper.  With regards to the team he is in charge and rank is certainly not an issue on the ice and in the dressing room.  Outside the arena the normal rules prevail.  This supports your comment about boundaries, although sports has more clear boundaries than friendship.

Cheers,

2B


----------



## pbi

I have a good friend who is now a CWO. We have known each other since before we joined the RegF, and I was best man at his wedding. His wife and mine are friends from high school days. When the CWO and I see each other on duty, it is by the rules. When we are at each others' houses or I am out shooting gophers with him, it is as friends. Professionals know where the line is.

Cheers.


----------



## BernDawg

AN interesting aside to the Army AF name thing. I re-mustered 5 years ago and found my self as a tradesman on an air base (after 15 yrs as a ground pounder).  When an officer or snr NCO introduces themself as "Bob" or "Larry" the most informal response I can bring myself to use at work is Boss as in "Yes boss" or "Good morning Boss" for snr NCO's. Officers are still Sir or Ma'am.  The whole first name thing just doesn't feel right at work. 

I guess you can take the man out of the grunts but you can't take the grunt out of the man.


----------



## Radop

pbi said:
			
		

> I have a good friend who is now a CWO. We have known each other since before we joined the RegF, and I was best man at his wedding. His wife and mine are friends from high school days. When the CWO and I see each other on duty, it is by the rules. When we are at each others' houses or I am out shooting gophers with him, it is as friends. Professionals know where the line is.
> 
> Cheers.


I agree fully with you especially with your use of professionals.  The unfortunate thing is that there are a lot of unprofessional soldiers in at the moment.  The worst part is Pte or Cpls calling Snr NCOs by their first name at work because they use it on the ice.  My wife has several friends of high commanders in Kingston and personally I feel uncomfortable calling them anything other than sir.  I call them by their first name at their place or at church, etc but definitely not at work.


----------



## pbi

> The unfortunate thing is that there are a lot of unprofessional soldiers in at the moment.  The worst part is Pte or Cpls calling Snr NCOs by their first name at work because they use it on the ice.



Yes-you are right, but I can assure you it is not just "at the moment"-this has been around for a while in some places. The problem with it in an Army environment is that there is a much higher risk in an Army unit that the superior will have to order the subordinate to do something nasty or dangerous-a "first name" basis can break down the discipline needed to make that work. Of course, as we have discussed at length on other threads, we have a number of people in the Army who never imagine they will have to do anything along those lines. IMHO the superior who alllows and encourages it at the wrong time and place  is just as bad (in fact, worse...) than the subordinate who does it. 

Cheers


----------



## mdh

When we are at each others' houses or I am out shooting gophers with him, it is as friends.

PBI,

Were those gophers armed? Can you verify that with certainty? Did they approach you with hostile intent? Otherwise I would watch what you say in public lest you may end up in the dock at the Hague,   8) cheers, mdh


----------



## Meridian

Also, were those gophers uniformed and seeminly professional? Might cause some issues in the media


----------



## mdh

My best advice sir is to insist that you discovered a network of spiderholes/tunnels used cleverly by a fifth column of jihadist gophers working their way toward and under the US border.


----------



## George Wallace

Then they should call in the USAF and carpet bomb....  ;D

GW


----------



## pbi

I applied "reasonable grounds". And I didn't shoot any of them when they were running away.






OK-well....I did, but......what if they came back? When I wasn't looking?


Cheers


----------



## Sailing Instructor

It seems my question has been overlooked due to the other posts being of a far more interesting nature.  However, I must ask once again:

When O Canada is played while the flag is hoisted (i.e. the time known as 'colours' in the Navy), shall I sing?  I ask because there is a rule saying 'one does not sing the anthem as part of a salute' & I am slightly confused as to whether saluting as the flag is hoisted counts as a salute.  I expect that it does not count: the rule refers only to the regal/viceregal salutes & the reason for not singing O Canada & God save the Queen is that they cut off: it would sound awful with a fraction of the words sung.

Are my reasoning & conclusion correct?


----------



## George Wallace

Sandbag said:
			
		

> Sailing Instructor, no you do not sing during the Royal or Vice-Regal Salute. My background on this is based upon three years as an HADC to LGov of Manitoba. Regarding the Vice-Regal, this is practical as well as customary because near of the two anthems are completely played. On many occasions I have seen the consternation of many civilian dignitaries when "all of sudden the music stops".
> 
> Regarding who salutes in the hallway, or whenever a group of officers are moving from one place to another, it should be the senior person return the compliments. This seniority is determined by rank, position, commissioning date.



Sailing Instructor

I guess you must have fallen off the top rack and never read this post from back on 26 January 2005.

GW


----------



## Sailing Instructor

I did read that, but I was rather hoping for an explicit statement that, _yes, you sing O Canada when it is played during colours_.  Anyway, thanks for the answer, Her Majesty's forces shall delight in my wonderful rendition of O Canada henceforth.


----------



## Big Bad John

In the Marines, God help you if you don't sing...enthusiastically!!!


----------



## J0HN

Do you have to go to attention everytime you talk to a higher superior? Even if your not on duty?

Thanks alot, 

John


----------



## paracowboy

depends on the unit you're in, the superior you're addressing, and how much poop you've gotten in lately.


----------



## Acorn

Yes. Unless told otherwise.

Acorn


----------



## The_Falcon

J0HN said:
			
		

> Do you have to go to attention everytime you talk to a higher superior? Even if your not on duty?
> 
> Thanks alot,
> 
> John



Depends, if you are on course than yes.  If not then no, at least I never have unless entering an office of thiers.  I have saluted officers when I go to speak to them but other than that I was standing relaxed while I spoke with them.


----------



## Brad Sallows

"Go to attention"...is this a down east thing, like "stay where you're at and I'll come where you're to"?

Here in the west we "come to attention".


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> "Go to attention"...is this a down east thing, like "stay where you're at and I'll come where you're to"?
> 
> Here in the west we "come to attention".



Its _Come to Attention _ here (as in the east) as well


----------



## Zoomie

Semantics aside - the young private asks a good question.

As a member of the Primary Reserve, you are not subject to the CSD when not in uniform or on military property.  Therefore, if you were to encounter a superior while at a movie with friends, it would not be necessary to stomp your feet and adopt the position of attention.  I would not recommend being rude, as your actions will be remembered the next parade night, just be polite and civil.


----------



## FastEddy

J0HN said:
			
		

> Do you have to go to attention everytime you talk to a higher superior? Even if your not on duty?
> 
> Thanks alot,
> 
> John




Just a tip, if its to the RSM, I'd highly reccommend it. ;D


----------



## Pikache

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Just a tip, if its to the RSM, I'd highly reccommend it. ;D


Or anyone with a high degree of accuracy with a pace stick.


----------



## the 48th regulator

> Semantics aside - the young private asks a good question.
> 
> As a member of the Primary Reserve, you are not subject to the CSD when not in uniform or on military property.   Therefore, if you were to encounter a superior while at a movie with friends, it would not be necessary to stomp your feet and adopt the position of attention.   I would not recommend being rude, as your actions will be remembered the next parade night, just be polite and civil.



This sums it up quite nicely.   Coming to attention when off duty is as bad as giving the high five in the field.   You become a sniper check, or garnish the weird looks of those around you.   Being polite and civil is the way to go, as they Will remember you if you are an ass.

hmm what am I saying?? I should have heeded that advice last night!!...Ah Pacino day soirees..

nuff said

dileas

tess

btw, I too say the going to atteniton, not coming.


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

when in doubt stand at attention.  or do it the PTE OPIE way, lean on doorframes in your office as you stand there and talk to the CO, and then have the Padre come and tell you Pte Opie , only  you  would get away  with leaning on the door frame talking to the LCOL  like that  and  only  you  would do it again. 

I was the Pte OPIE and leaned on the door frame talking to the LCOL. Nothing happened to me. 
But common manner is come to attention when you know the person outranks you . then wait for direction to stand at ease or stand easy or as you were.


----------



## OHara

It really all depends on what it is about. If you are casually discussing something with a officer then there isnt much need to stand at attention. The only Officer that would tell you otherwise would be one who has his head to far up his ass or his/her wife/husband isnt putting out! I have done lots of things with a Brig General (Kilby) When I was the CSM of my Army Cadet Corps (2510 RMRang Sicamous B.C) And he didnt like it when I stood at attention to talk to him. So it all depends on who you are talking too, how you are talking, and if you want to do it for the hell of it out of respect then do it.


----------



## reccecrewman

I would definitely agree that it all depends on the situation & the rank of the individual you're speaking to.  Generally speaking, most officers & sergeant majors are fairly relaxed when not on duty (some even when on duty unless you're the object of their anger)  I see my CO & RSM quite frequently when out and about around Petawawa and Pembroke and for them, they don't expect their troops to come to attention when speaking to them.  I will say it's in your very best interests to use "Sir" when addressing them no matter what the situation though.


----------



## oftengone

I say that if you are working yes come to attention, if you're not then no need to be.  Unless if you enter the office of an officer that is a higher rank. :-\  Not fun but it's life...


----------



## George Wallace

Coming to attention is a form of paying a compliment or showing respect.   It is common practice to come to attention, and saluting when wearing headdress, prior to entering any office.   I have had officers, senior to me, pay such compliments prior to entering my office in the past.   Some of these become habits and at times you will see 'military' guys doing it out of habit while in civies.


----------



## Manimal

got jacked at BMQ last weekend. 
two of us came up to a group of soldiers, it was dark, unlite, and at 2230. could not see ranks, or even faces! 
i pointed out to my higher educated friend, that the one guy looked like a captain i met three weeks earlier. we came up to them, checked arms, and my friend in front started the salute.
part way thru (his hand still coming up) one of the soldiers asked "you don't sulute?" so getting scared, i also saluted.
which i believed that only one of us were to do it. so we got jacked for that as well.

if you are in a group, and an officer comes in, one person calls 'group' and he/she should be the one to salute.
if you are walking, someone, first person, or the closest should do it. others come to attention. but ONLY ONE salutes.
if there are other rules about where and when i don't know, but only one saluting was made very clear on our course.


----------



## Daidalous

The highest rank will salute yell "Group!" and the rest will come to attention check there arms.  Or the first person to notice the officer.    This drill squad and class lecture is one of the first you do during basic.   If someone in uniform is asking this question they need to start taking this job seriously and start opening ears and engaging there brain when being taught something.  

However if someone is a civvy,  thats what we do.


----------



## Soon2binfantry

You salute to your superior officers, every provincial flag and especially the Canadian flag.

(Edited by Moderator, compliments are not paid to provincial flags.)


----------



## Drummie

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> The thing to remember is that you are saluting the Queen (i.e. the "commission") therefore if the officer hasn‘t been commissioned, then coming to attention will suffice as paying respects to that officer.  Here at CTC gagetown, it‘s rare that we salute anything that is an Ocdt. or 2Lt.
> 
> Bzz



Last time I checked, a 2Lt. holds a Queen's commission...not saluting them is just plain wrong  Whether they've been a 2Lt. for 10 mins or 10 yrs., one must remember the act of saluting is to demonstrate ones alliegance and loyalty to the Sovergien, and not so much as to the individual officer in question. 



> basically if an NCO greets you or walks past you outside, they must salute you, and you can return the favour; that is, if the NCO is in uniform.


I beg to differ on that, if an officer is saluted, they must return the compliment, it's not an issue of 'can'.


----------



## Neill McKay

Soon2binfantry said:
			
		

> You salute to your superior officers, every provincial flag and especially the Canadian flag.
> 
> (Edited by Moderator, compliments are not paid to provincial flags.)



You salute the Canadian flag if it passes by you on parade, or if it's being raised or lowered, but otherwise not (e.g. you don't salute the flag if you're walking by a flagpole from which one is flying).


----------



## Gayson

Habitant said:
			
		

> Can anybody explain saluting to me?
> 
> How? When? Who to Who? Under what circumstance? Finally, why?
> 
> I know this might be an easy question, but I searched the forum and it isn‘t already answered.
> 
> I am to be sworn in tomorrow as a 2Lt. and am a but nervous about the whole thing!
> 
> Thanks!



I wouldn't worry about it because:

1)  You likely haven't been issued a uniform yet and thus won't have the proper dress to do one.
2)  You likely have not been formally taught how to do it, thus it won't be expected of you.

I suggest just standing at attention with the best posture that you can and act as professional and as curteous the officer as you possibly can.


----------



## George Wallace

J. Gayson said:
			
		

> I wouldn't worry about it because:
> 
> 1)  You likely haven't been issued a uniform yet and thus won't have the proper dress to do one.
> 2)  You likely have not been formally taught how to do it, thus it won't be expected of you.
> 
> I suggest just standing at attention with the best posture that you can and act as professional and as curteous the officer as you possibly can.


I wouldn't worry either....you are commenting on a post that is three years old and either he has learned all about saluting or has failed that PO/EO and is now a Retired Service Member (RSM).


----------



## ZipperHead

The Fighting 47th said:
			
		

> Last time I checked, a 2Lt. holds a Queen's commission...not saluting them is just plain wrong  Whether they've been a 2Lt. for 10 mins or 10 yrs., one must remember the act of saluting is to demonstrate ones alliegance and loyalty to the Sovergien, and not so much as to the individual officer in question.
> I beg to differ on that, if an officer is saluted, they must return the compliment, it's not an issue of 'can'.



I know where you are coming from, but it is very impractical in a training environment (with a very large population of 2nd Lt's) to salute every one that you see. I know I may burn in hell for this, but I know I don't. There is also an "attitude" (if you will) that until that 2nd Lt is trained (ie finishes his/her Phase 4 or equivalent) they aren't "worthy" of a salute. And, apparently, in the day an officer wouldn't get their 2Lt's until they were fully qualified, but it seems to have changed due to the various policies that have changed since then.

I'll put it this way, when I see a 2Lt wearing only the Armour fist (indicating that they are still in training) I, as a general rule, don't salute them. I do, however, when I see them struggling with an armful of books, or are carrying something in their right hand. I'm kidding about those examples, but not the following: there are some 2Lt's that I know that "deserve" to be saluted, whether it is because they have Been There Done That as a soldier, or they are someone I particularly respect (through actions that I have witnessed). Is that right (to be selective)? Probably not, but c'est la vie. I haven't been charged yet (for my selective saluting), and don't imagine I will be anytime in the near future.

Al


----------



## the 48th regulator

You are showing respect for the commission, not the experience of the person carrying it.....

Great concept to carry and put forward Al.......

dileas

tess


----------



## Michael OLeary

We've been down this road before. The regulations are there and it is up to the professionalism of serving officers and NCOs to apply them as intended, without personal editorializing.

Locked.


----------



## FMRWO

I asked the moderators to unlock this topic so I could contribute my 2c ....

This oldtimer has served with many nations (as a CF soldier), in many countries, on many bases. A professional soldier *will salute all national flags, period!* *Will salute all officers*, all the time, period, if in doubt because of lighting, uniform, nationality ... *salute anyways*. 

On the UN bases around the world (I've been to) everybody salutes everybody (beats learning all the rank structures of every UN military). It is a greeting, even Canadian nco's, privates, corporals ... salute each other. 

Some units & HQ's have a once in the AM once in the pm policy, which got me thinking: " have I seen him today yet ?" Nobody, except old tired SrNCO's are gonna give you a hard time if you salute them and you shouldn't have (ok I've done that too). In which case an appology is usualy accepted  

End of my 2c ...


----------



## Michael Dorosh

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> You salute the Canadian flag if it passes by you on parade, or if it's being raised or lowered, but otherwise not (e.g. you don't salute the flag if you're walking by a flagpole from which one is flying).



What's the reference for this - I'd like a definitive answer.  I was under the assumption, as the last poster is, that the Canadian flag is always saluted when you walk past it.


----------



## Michael OLeary

> National Défense
> -AD-200-000/AG-000
> THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE
> CANADIAN FORCES
> (BILINGUAL)
> (Supersedes A-AD-200-000/AG-000 dated 1988-09-28)
> Issued on Authority of the Chief of the Defence Staff
> 
> OPI: DHH 1999-01-04
> 
> 
> CEREMONIAL PARADES AND OCCASIONS
> 
> 34. Only the following Canadian flags may be carried on parade:
> 
> a. consecrated Colours (see Chapter 5);
> b. official commemorative (Royal) banners (see Section 7, paragraphs 1 and 2);
> c. the National Flag;
> d. the CF Ensign; and
> e. command flags.
> 
> 38. Compliments (salutes) shall only be paid to consecrated Colours and the National Flag. They shall not be paid to any other Canadian flag.
> 
> 
> 
> CHAPTER
> SECTION 4
> THE NATIONAL FLAG
> 
> 1. The National Flag of Canada, commonly called the Canadian Flag, became the country's official flag on 15 February 1965. Its colours, red and white, are the colours of Canada, and the maple leaf is a traditional Canadian emblem.
> 
> *COMPLIMENTS*
> 
> 10. *When the National Flag is being hoisted or lowered at a defence establishment, all military personnel within view shall halt, face the flagstaff and pay compliments* as prescribed in A-PD-201-000/PT- 000, CF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial.
> 
> 11. *When carried on parade in lieu of consecrated Colours, the National Flag shall be saluted as for such Colours*.
> 
> 12. The National Flag shall not be dipped or lowered as a means of paying a salute or compliment. (A National Flag worn as a Ship's Ensign shall return courtesy salutes. See Section 3, paragraph 9.)


----------



## Centurian1985

Im prettyy sure that by regulation, you must salute the Canadian flag is you pass it by.  Most soldiers consider it a nuisance to do so, so dont do so unless someone in authourity is watching, or when the standard is not kept at the unit you were at.  (Yes, it is very shameful, I admit falling into the habit myself on occasion!)

For example, the flag flies in front of 1 CAD HQ but noone salutes it unless it is being raised or lowered (which rarely happens, it is lit 24 hours a day), but is saluted if you are in parade uniform.  The AF also does not salute inside buildings while the Army does in most buildings.  There are numnerous differences like these depending on the unit. 

Reference the history of saluting, my reading incicated that the Romans used an pen palm salute to indicate they bore no weapons, which later became the 'visor lift' salute (as another person stated), which staill later became the open palm salute to the forehead after the disappearance of the metal helm, which was changed to a horizontal palm after 1900-1950 (depending on the country involved I think).


----------



## Michael OLeary

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Im prettyy sure that by regulation, you must salute the Canadian flag is you pass it by.  Most soldiers consider it a nuisance to do so, so dont do so unless someone in authourity is watching, or when the standard is not kept at the unit you were at.  (Yes, it is very shameful, I admit falling into the habit myself on occasion!)



Then perhaps you can identify that regulation you seem to remember that makes you "pretty sure."  The above extract is from the current publication THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES and it seems pretty clear.


----------



## paracowboy

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Im prettyy sure that by regulation, you must salute the Canadian flag is you pass it by.


well, I'm pretty sure that the regulation is posted directly above your post.


Geez, Mike! That's three consecutive times, today alone you've beat me to the punch!


----------



## Michael OLeary

And from the Drill Manual:



> Canada
> National Défense
> A-PD-201-000/PT-000
> THE CANADIAN FORCES MANUAL OF DRILL AND CEREMONIAL
> (Supersedes A-PD-201-000/PT-000 dated 1993-10-27)
> 
> 1-2-1
> SECTION 2
> COMPLIMENTS
> 
> 29. National Flag. *When the National Flag is hoisted or lowered at defence establishments, all ranks in or out of uniform within view shall face the flagpole or mast, stand at attention and pay compliments* as follows:
> 
> a. All who are not part of a formed military group shall salute.
> 
> b. Unarmed military groups shall be halted facing the flagpole and the officer or non-commissioned member in charge of the group shall salute;
> 
> c. Armed parties shall present arms.
> 
> d.  Motor vehicles in view shall be stopped and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments.


----------



## Praying Mantis

Hehe.. my friend saluted with her left hand once..

And, once, I was standing outside of the armoury, and a second lieutenant walked in front of me, and I wasn't paying attention, I was looking out for my ride...therefore, I didn't salute. Then he said to me, "pay attention to detail." of course, he didn't walk away without being saluted..not only was that disrespectful, I felt pretty bad afterwards.

so, to avoid anything unneccessary like that in the future..hehe, pay attention  ;D!!


----------



## Michael OLeary

It is spelled like this: "Second Lieutenant"

And yes, attention to detail is a good thing.


----------



## a_majoor

<RANT>
Please do *NOT* say "Thank you" when you are receiving a salute. It isn't a gift (I'll send you a card if you like, or a nice fruit cake at Christmas) but a compliment and a sign of respect for the Sovereign, the comission and all the crap you went through in phase training to earn it.

Thank you
</RANT>


----------



## Centurian1985

I am in error then; probably a holdover in my head from some exuberant senior NCOs who was also in error.  

Hmm, not to confuse the issue, but I recall during my Cyprus tour that while on sentry duty we were expected to salute every passing vehicle (which we considered only a mechansim for making sure sentries werent asleep), regardless of whether there was an officer present or not.  Anyone else encountered this?  whats the official ruling on that?


----------



## paracowboy

Centurian1985 said:
			
		

> Hmm, not to confuse the issue, but I recall during my Cyprus tour that while on sentry duty we were expected to salute every passing vehicle (which we considered only a mechansim for making sure sentries werent asleep), regardless of whether there was an officer present or not.  Anyone else encountered this?  whats the official ruling on that?


varies from tour to tour, and sometimes from Camp Sgt-Maj to Camp Sgt-Maj. Last time I was anywhere exciting, we saluted everything on wheels.


----------



## chrisf

I recall being asked once what you do when you're marching a column of troops and an Colonel or better approaches...

The reply I gave being "What are you supposed or what would I do? Because personally, I'd just dive into the bushes and wait till he goes by"


----------



## GAP

Picture this: 
Typical Canadian lad, in 1967, recently arrived (about 2 weeks before Christmas) in San Diego MCRD. Here I am didy-bopping along the MCRD parade square at sunset watching these people sing Christmas carols around a flag pole, with the temperature about 75 degrees F. There was this music playing, and I was trying to fit the words of "Good King Wencheslass" to the music and it was working quite well. That is, until this Lieutenant stopped me and pointed out the errors of my way. 
It seems that the "Star Spangled Banner" does fit the words to "Good King Wencheslass", and politely inquired as to why I was still moving and not saluting the flag as it was being lowered. 

For some strange reason, he did not understand my confusion, even after I explained that I was Canadian, I thought they were singing Christmas carols, the words fit, etc. , etc..

this memory is only good from a great distance.....


----------



## Michael OLeary

Well, now that we've solved saluting again - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/812/post-321684.html#msg321684


----------



## baudspeed

Okay i have a weird question... what happens when you are standing behind the counter or in the driver seat of the taxi and a CO comes up. Do you have to salute? (i am currently a civilian applicant so i have no background).


----------



## Sig_Des

Lost Cargo said:
			
		

> Okay i have a weird question... what happens when you are standing behind the counter or in the driver seat of the taxi and a CO comes up. Do you have to salute? (i am currently a civilian applicant so i have no background).



You don't salute in civvies.


----------



## George Wallace

Lost Cargo said:
			
		

> Okay i have a weird question... what happens when you are standing behind the counter or in the driver seat of the taxi and a CO comes up. Do you have to salute? (i am currently a civilian applicant so i have no background).



You DO NOT SALUTE when 1) You are not in uniform; 2) You are in the Driver's Seat of a Vehicle; 3) You are not wearing Headress; and 4) normally when you are inside a building.


----------



## NL_engineer

George Wallace said:
			
		

> 4) normally when you are inside a building.



I bet the RSMs would love to see this  :


----------



## Pte_Martin

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> I bet the RSMs would love to see this  :



I don't know if your joking or not, but yes some buldings you don't have to Salute in, I know there is a couple of them in Kingston at the PSTC.


----------



## Journeyman

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> 4) normally when you are inside a building.
> 
> 
> 
> I bet the RSMs would love to see this  :
Click to expand...


Perhaps he meant "when the taxi you're driving has ended up inside a building, saluting is not required"   ;D


----------



## NL_engineer

Infantry_ said:
			
		

> I don't know if your joking or not, but yes some buldings you don't have to Salute in, I know there is a couple of them in Kingston at the PSTC.



I meant it as more of a joke.  Most buildings I have been in are salute when wearing a head dress, or YOU WILL SALUTE. (head dress must be worn when outside office (schools, depending on the RSM of curse))


----------



## Neill McKay

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> You don't salute in civvies.



Right, but it is correct to tip your hat if you meet an officer when you are in civvies.

(I realize that this is by no means universally done, even by the minority of men who wear hats in civvies.)


----------



## Trinity

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Right, but it is correct to tip your hat if you meet an officer when you are in civvies.
> 
> (I realize that this is by no means universally done, even by the minority of men who wear hats in civvies.)



You have a regulation for that?


----------



## navymich

Trinity said:
			
		

> You have a regulation for that?



From the CF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial Chapter 1, section 2, para 17 and 18:



> CIVILIAN DRESS
> 
> 17. Appropriate compliments shall be paid
> when recognizing an officer dressed in civilian
> clothing.
> 
> 18. When dressed in civilian clothes, all
> members shall stand at attention and male
> members (less Sikhs) shall remove headdress, on
> any occasion when a salute would be correct in
> uniform and extreme winter weather conditions
> allow. On the march, the headdress is raised or
> removed, if applicable, and the head turned right or
> left. When headdress is not worn, it is correct to
> turn the head as required and offer a polite
> greeting.


----------



## Trinity

WOW

cause I've never seen that done or had it done to me


----------



## George Wallace

So.....we have found a sure fire way of sorting out the FNG's   ;D


----------



## rmacqueen

George Wallace said:
			
		

> normally when you are inside a building.


When you are in a more common sense trade like armoured you don't salute inside a building, when you are TD'd to the RCR Battle School you do (not to mention saluting people behind you, as I found out the hard way) ;D


----------



## George Wallace

OK

Some courtesies when wearing headdress and paying compliments inside of buildings:

Salute before entering an Officer's office, even if you outrank them.  (The reason is it is a courtesy, and also, they may hold a higher 'delegated' position than you.  Just leave it as being polite.)

Salute your officers first time and last time during the work day....."Good Morning and Good Afternoon/night".......you don't have to constantly be saluting them everytime you turn around.  Remember, that this is 'Indoors', not when you see them outside......where you will pay the proper compliments at all times......except in the Field (unless doing a Sniper Check.   ;D)

Salute when in "Designated Attention Areas" (Usually in all Trg Schools and in many Inf Regimental Lines, etc.).  Remember rules that apply to Groups.

When in doubt.  (Should be Safe, rather than Sorry......the catch all.)


----------



## mysteriousmind

well It has happened in the past..were a cadet...saw me in a shopping mal..and went standing attention to me...


I do not like it.

Showing respect and courtesy is ok...but to the point of getting to attention in a public place.... sorry...but I am not comfortable with it.  :-\


----------



## Nfld Sapper

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> I meant it as more of a joke.  Most buildings I have been in are salute when wearing a head dress, or YOU WILL SALUTE. (head dress must be worn when outside office (schools, depending on the RSM of curse))



Using your vodoo magic?  ;D


----------



## armyvern

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> Showing respect and courtesy is ok...but to the point of getting to attention in a public place.... sorry...but I am not comfortable with it.  :-\



Well, if you joined the military, and you are in a public place, you'd better get used to saluting if you're in uniform. That's the way it is.

Telling the BComd, for example, in the Tim Horton's parking lot, that you neglected to salute his commission because you "just aren't comfortable with it" WILL NOT fly.

Word up.


----------



## navymich

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> well It has happened in the past..were a cadet...saw me in a shopping mal..and went standing attention to me...
> 
> 
> I do not like it.
> 
> Showing respect and courtesy is ok...but to the point of getting to attention in a public place.... sorry...but I am not comfortable with it.  :-\



But look at who was doing it, a cadet.  It goes back to what George was saying "when in doubt".  They salute anything that moves because they are scared not to.  And this is not just cadets, but new recruits too.  (and not all of them, I am not trying to start a bash-cadet/recruit thing here).  But when they get more used to their surroundings, they will learn more about this too.  Personally, I only do the checking of arms (when I'm in civvies) to an officer when I am on the base/dockyard.  In a public place, I simply acknowledge them with a sir or ma'am.

(I had more written here too, but I was a bit slow today, so I'll just say to the Librarian's post -- +1)




			
				rmacqueen said:
			
		

> When you are in a more common sense trade element like armoured navy you don't salute inside a building...



MacQueen, just amending your post to my liking.


----------



## mysteriousmind

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Well, if you joined the military, and you are in a public place, you'd better get used to saluting if you're in uniform. That's the way it is.
> 
> Telling the BComd, for example, in the Tim Horton's parking lot, that you neglected to salute his commission because you "just aren't comfortable with it" WILL NOT fly.
> 
> Word up.



No I meant...in civilian clothing....

I do not have a problem saluting someone if im in uniform...or I did not have trouble being saluted if I was in uniform....I is totaly normal to do so.

I undertand and have the upmost repsect for the salute and rules... I missed expressed my self sorry.


----------



## George Wallace

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> No I meant...in cilian clothing....



Now you're being completely silly..... ;D


----------



## armyvern

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> No I meant...in civilian clothing....



Well yes, now that's a whole 'nother story.  >


----------



## Neill McKay

airmich said:
			
		

> Personally, I only do the checking of arms (when I'm in civvies) to an officer when I am on the base/dockyard.  In a public place, I simply acknowledge them with a sir or ma'am.



Where were you told to check your arms when meeting an officer?  I've looked for an instruction or explanation without success, and had put the practice down to a persistent "cadetism".  This is the first time I've heard of a CF member doing it.  I'm interested in finding out where it comes from.


----------



## George Wallace

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Where were you told to check your arms when meeting an officer?  I've looked for an instruction or explanation without success, and had put the practice down to a persistent "cadetism".  This is the first time I've heard of a CF member doing it.  I'm interested in finding out where it comes from.



Funny how you have never heard of this before.  I am positive that you did indeed get taught this and subsequently have forgotten it.  

It reallly is odd that you don't know this.   ???


----------



## armyvern

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Where were you told to check your arms when meeting an officer?  I've looked for an instruction or explanation without success, and had put the practice down to a persistent "cadetism".  This is the first time I've heard of a CF member doing it.  I'm interested in finding out where it comes from.



This too is normal. If I am in civvies, and I come across an Officer who is either in uniform, or out of it (if I recognize him/her), this is a proper and expected practice of respect.

Ever wonder just exactly why it was that we stare at all those pictures of the MNDs, CDS, COs etc etc. So you remember them, recognize them, and pay the proper respects when you run into them, in or out of uniforms.

Hey, I remember in Cornwallis, Basic Trg, being flashed pictures of all these guys and having to name off who they were. I couldn't remember Gen Mason...NOT GOOD!! But, I'm sure that my instructors 'correction of my problem' has ensured that I'd recognize him even today!!


----------



## NCRCrow

I would not check my arms to an Officer at the Mic Mac Mall...sorry 

My 5 years in Petawawa at the Canex for sure.


----------



## armyvern

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> I would not check my arms to an Officer at the Mic Mac Mall...sorry
> 
> My 5 years in Petawawa at the Canex for sure.



Just remember that if one of them ever decides to call you on it. Their commission doesn't magically disappear just because they happen to be in the MicMac Mall, or wherever actually.


----------



## NCRCrow

Call me on what!!

Check my arms to my CO at the Mic Mac , he would laugh..
 ;D


----------



## armyvern

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Call me on what!!
> 
> Check my arms to my CO at the Mic Mac , he would laugh..
> ;D



OK, so are you insinuating that you would do this in Petawawa because you know the Officers there will call you on it if you don't; but that you wouldn't in Halifax because those Officers wouldn't call you on it?

Interesting. Be careful though, I know a whole bunch on Army Officers posted to that location too....


----------



## career_radio-checker

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> well It has happened in the past..were a cadet...saw me in a shopping mal..and went standing attention to me...
> 
> 
> I do not like it.
> 
> Showing respect and courtesy is ok...but to the point of getting to attention in a public place.... sorry...but I am not comfortable with it.  :-\



Now, you see, that just makes me want to do it even more... and louder.  ;D


----------



## NCRCrow

Quit it your scarin me!


----------



## armyvern

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Quit it your scarin me!



You must have been one of the guys in Stad back during my October visit then:

But perhaps that does explain the look of dread on so many faces as us Army folk made our way up the road in Stad during an LFAA conference to visit Timmies. Never seen so many people remeber that they must have forgot something and have to turn around and go the opposite direction to go get it.  ;D


----------



## Haggis

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Check my arms to my CO at the Mic Mac , he would laugh..
> ;D



I wouldn't check my arms while in civvies in civvie world, but I'd certainly politely acknowledge the officer.  That meets the spirit and intent of the Drill Manual.


----------



## NCRCrow

I agree with Haggis..

I was on tour in October, sorry to disappoint you


----------



## armyvern

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> I agree with Haggis..
> 
> I was on tour in October, sorry to disappoint you



Well funny how that happens eh? The above is contradictory to what you said here:



> My 5 years in Petawawa at the Canex for sure.



Tours have nothing to do with it!! Saluting on an Op tour...is a whole 'nother ballgame my friend.

And Haggis, I was referring to us being in uniform and the officer in civvies.


----------



## BernDawg

Well....  Being from a hard army background and now being a different trade on an air base I can certainly say that I've shocked a few of our officers by paying "proper" respects in public either in uniform or out.  It's rather odd to see a slightly embarrassed look on their faces as they return the compliments.  Not all of them but some of them.


----------



## George Wallace

Now that is quite comical.

I remember being 'Army' and saluting an 'Air Force' officer while walking down the sidewalk (two foot wide with 1.5 foot high curb) on CFB Summerside and had a hard time trying to keep a straight face as he looked at me in shock and nearly fell off the sidewalk trying to remember how to salute.


----------



## Remius

I saluted an officer in a parc outside NDHQ.  She was having lunch and was seated on a bench.  Maybe it she was suprised by the salute or my voice saying "Ma'am!"  but she saluted with her left hand (the right one was holding an awkward looking sandwich and her mouth was full) she also had her headress off for obvious reasons.  I had to smile.  I think she was more in shock realising what just had happened, you could see it on her face the moment her hand went up. ;D


----------



## Neill McKay

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Funny how you have never heard of this before.  I am positive that you did indeed get taught this and subsequently have forgotten it.
> 
> It reallly is odd that you don't know this.   ???



Will you show me where in the 201 it says to do such a thing, then?  (Coming to attention while standing is one thing; checking one's arms while walking is quite another.)


----------



## mysteriousmind

crantor

On a Leadership course in Borden in 1999

I once saluted a Bgen with no berret on, I was kind of stressed out and tired....He just smiled at me and gave a understanding smile...he returned my salute...and he approached me and spoke to my ear in a paternal tone that I was not to salute if I did not have my berret on. I felt so ashamed...and...of course  I was the laughing stock for the remainder of the cours...


----------



## armyvern

Well mysteriousmind, of course you don't salute if you have no headdress on (I did that one too...back in my younger years).  ;D

Neill McKay...it is times like this that you would indeed check your arms (even while walking up a hallway...whatever) if some General happened by and you had no head dress on.

Wow.


----------



## NL_engineer

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> crantor
> 
> On a Leadership course in Borden in 1999
> 
> I once saluted a Bgen with no berret on, I was kind of stressed out and tired....He just smiled at me and gave a understanding smile...he returned my salute...and he approached me and spoke to my ear in a paternal tone that I was not to salute if I did not have my berret on. I felt so ashamed...and...of course  I was the laughing stock for the remainder of the cours...



I have seen a number of people do that to my units CO, in the mess, when they were called up for promotion  ;D, needless to say everyone got a laugh.


----------



## mysteriousmind

The Librarian

I know that....but..hey what can I say...it was on the spur of the moment...I was impressed...youngh and stupid...


----------



## George Wallace

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> Will you show me where in the 201 it says to do such a thing, then?  (Coming to attention while standing is one thing; checking one's arms while walking is quite another.)



I'm sorry.  After checking your profile, I realized that I forgot that you may not have been taught correctly.  I will endeavor to find you the correct references.


----------



## navymich

Here's another situation.  You are in uniform, but the officer is not.  What do you do?  I just checked the Drill manual again, and I don't see it right off.  I was taught years ago that you still salute them and they should acknowledge by checking their arms.  The fun times are when the officer forgets that they are in civvies and returns the salute!


----------



## Pte_Martin

I was taught to salute if the officer is in civvies and you are in uniform


----------



## mysteriousmind

You DO have to Salute an officer who is in civvies. They will acknoledge...if not, you did what you have to according rules period.


It is always better to salute then not salute when you should have.


----------



## George Wallace

And as promised:

From:  CANADIAN FORCES MANUAL OF DRILL AND CEREMONIAL

A-PD-201-000/PT-000




> 123. CIVILIAN DRESS
> 
> 1. Appropriate compliments shall be paid when recognizing an officer dressed in civilian clothing.
> 
> 2. When dressed in civilian clothes, all members shall stand at attention, and male members (less Sikhs) shall remove headwear, on any occasion when a salute would be correct in uniform and extreme winter weather conditions allow. On the march, the headwear is raised or removed, if applicable, and the head turned right or left. When headdress is not worn, it is correct to turn the head as required and offer a polite greeting.


----------



## 211RadOp

airmich said:
			
		

> Here's another situation.  You are in uniform, but the officer is not.  What do you do?  I just checked the Drill manual again, and I don't see it right off.  I was taught years ago that you still salute them and they should acknowledge by checking their arms.  The fun times are when the officer forgets that they are in civvies and returns the salute!



Chapter 1 Section 2 Para 17

"17. Appropriate compliments shall be paid when recognizing an officer dressed in civilian clothing."


----------



## SupersonicMax

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And as promised:
> 
> From:  CANADIAN FORCES MANUAL OF DRILL AND CEREMONIAL
> 
> A-PD-201-000/PT-000



That, my friends, is too intense for me...

Max


----------



## navymich

211RadOp said:
			
		

> Chapter 1 Section 2 Para 17
> 
> "17. Appropriate compliments shall be paid when recognizing an officer dressed in civilian clothing."



Duh (that duh is to myself btw, not to you).  That would be the same para that I quoted on the first page of this thread.  Completely skipped by it this time.  Thank you. 

(I am blaming all of this to my onset of corporalairforceitis )


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I've been paying compliments that way for over 40 years. If it was wrong, I'm sure someone would have told me by now.


----------



## armyvern

OK folks,

Here it is in a nutshell!!  ;D Yeah right, like it's _ever_ that easy in this outfit!! 

http://www.drillpad.net/Regs/201.doc



> CANADIAN FORCES MANUAL OF DRILL AND CEREMONIAL
> 
> A-PD-201-000/PT-000
> 
> (Supersedes A-PD-201-000/PT-000 dated 1976-02-10)
> 
> Issued on Authority on the Chief of the Defence Staff
> 
> (Other Chapters at the link above)
> 
> 
> SECTION 2 - COMPLIMENTS
> 
> 120. GENERAL
> 
> 1. Compliments are formal marks of respect and courtesy, i.e., salutes.
> 
> 2. The military salute is a traditional demonstration of trust and respect. Although the method of saluting varies with circumstances, the paying of compliments is a fundamental requirement that is indispensable to service discipline.
> 
> 3. In general, military compliments are paid to the Sovereign; the Sovereign's representative in Canada, the Governor General; the Head of Government, the Prime Minister of Canada; Cabinet members for defence, the Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence; Lieutenant-Governor; commissioned officers; and consecrated colours. See also article 124.
> 
> 4. Service individuals receiving a compliment shall acknowledge it.
> 
> 5. Detailed instructions on the techniques of paying individual compliments are found elsewhere in this publication as follows:
> 
> a. at the halt - Chapter 2;
> 
> b. on the march - Chapter 3;
> 
> c. when bearing arms:
> 
> 1. rifle - Chapter 4,
> 
> 2. carbine - Chapter 5,
> 
> 3. sword - Chapter 6; and
> 
> d. when carrying pace stick or cane - Chapter 6.
> 
> 121. FORMED MILITARY GROUPS
> 
> 1. Compliments on behalf of a formed military group are normally given by the person in charge of the group.
> 
> 2. At the halt:
> 
> a. The person in charge will order the group to attention before saluting.
> 
> b. When the group is armed, it shall be brought to attention and then may be brought to the shoulder arms position before the person in charge gives the appropriate salute.
> 
> 3. On the march:
> 
> a. The person in charge of a formed military unit shall personally salute when passing junior officers (Captains and Lieutenants) superior to himself in rank. When passing senior officers superior to himself in rank, the person in charge shall order EYES RIGHT/LEFT and salute with the hand while turning head and eyes in the required direction.
> 
> b. When bearing arms at the trail, the person in command shall shoulder arms before proceeding as detailed in sub-paragraph a. above.
> 
> 122. INDIVIDUAL
> 
> 1. Officers shall salute all officers of higher rank and shall return all compliments paid them. Senior officers receiving compliments from marching troops on a ceremonial parade shall hold the salute as each individual component passes directly by in review.
> 
> 2. Non-commissioned members shall salute all commissioned officers.
> 
> 3. Officers and non-commissioned members not part of a formed military group shall pay individual compliments to an approaching higher ranking officer (see also paragraph 4). The senior officer receiving the salute shall return the compliment, while military persons accompanying that officer give an eyes right/left in the same manner as saluting without headdress (paragraph 7) during the exchange of compliments or greetings.
> 
> 4. When an officer approaches a group of non-commissioned members, the senior of the group or the person who recognizes the officer first, shall take command and call the group to attention: the senior or person in charge shall then alone salute. Junior members shall draw their senior's attention to approaching officers if the circumstances require and allow.
> 
> 5. Individual compliments to a formed military group on the march and under the command of an officer shall be paid by halting, turning to face the group and saluting. The salute should be maintained until the entire group has passed.
> 
> 6. While bearing arms, individuals shall pay compliments to officers by saluting at the shoulder arms position. Sentries shall pay compliments in accordance with article 1030.
> 
> 7. When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention. If on the march, arms shall be swung and the head turned to the left or right as required.
> 
> 8. White nurses caps are considered marks of qualification rather than headdress. Nursing officers and medical associates wearing this cap shall pay compliments as if they had no headdress.
> 
> 123. CIVILIAN DRESS
> 
> 1. Appropriate compliments shall be paid when recognizing an officer dressed in civilian clothing.
> 
> 2. When dressed in civilian clothes, all members shall stand at attention, and male members (less Sikhs) shall remove headwear, on any occasion when a salute would be correct in uniform and extreme winter weather conditions allow. On the march, the headwear is raised or removed, if applicable, and the head turned right or left. When headdress is not worn, it is correct to turn the head as required and offer a polite greeting.
> 
> 124. SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES
> 
> 1. Buildings.    Salutes are not given indoors in either public or service buildings except on parades, ceremonial occasions, in areas so designated by base commanders, or when entering or leaving the office of an officer who should be paid compliments by virtue of his rank or appointment. Further:
> 
> a. It is correct to turn the head and offer a polite greeting when meeting an officer in the common area of a public or service building.
> 
> b. It is not customary for those other than Sikhs working in a building to wear headdress when visiting another office in the same building. In this circumstance, compliments are paid by briefly coming to attention at the office door.
> 
> 2. Cenotaphs.    Officers and men shall salute individually, and formed military groups shall pay compliments when passing the National War Memorial and cenotaphs to military dead.
> 
> 3. Colours.    Individuals and formed military groups shall pay compliments to uncased colours, except when the colour is part of an escort to the deceased during a funeral (see subparagraph 5 a.).
> 
> a. Halted armed groups shall present arms.
> 
> b. Military groups marching past uncased colours shall give eyes right/left.
> 
> c. See also paragraph 12.
> 
> 4. Religious Services and Buildings.    Conventional marks of respect and courtesy shall be observed during religious services and in places of worship, depending on the customs of the religion involved. In particular, female members are not required to remove their headdress in a church, synagogue or other place of worship, male members of the Jewish faith may wear the yarmulke, and Sikhs are not required to remove headdress.
> 
> 5. Funerals.    The following compliments shall be paid at state, military and civilian funerals:
> 
> a. The remains of the deceased take seniority and alone receive compliments during a funeral.
> 
> b. Members shall wear headdress and pay respects by saluting when passing the casket at a vigil.
> 
> c. Formed military groups shall be halted and turned to face a passing funeral procession, and the officer or man in charge will salute the bier as it passes. Individual compliments shall be paid in a similar fashion.
> 
> d. Individuals and formed military groups bearing arms shall salute a passing funeral procession by presenting arms.
> 
> e. Salutes, as above, shall be accorded the casket during interments.
> 
> f. At the end of a Service funeral, the officiating chaplain will proceed to the foot of the grave to pay his respects. Service members should then proceed to the foot of the grave, in order of seniority, to pay individual respects by saluting. When numbers warrant, members may approach in small informal groups.
> 
> g. See also paragraph 8.
> 
> 6. Guards and Sentries.    Detailed instructions for paying compliments by guards and sentries are found in Chapter 10.
> 
> 7. Courtesy Salutes:
> 
> a. Foreign officers shall be saluted in the same manner as Canadian officers unless the circumstances clearly dictate otherwise.
> 
> b. Service members may express their respect for individual civilians by using a salute as a formal means of greeting or farewell.
> 
> 8. Memorial Services and Funerals.   Compliments to the dead shall be paid during the sounding of the calls Last Post and Reveille when they are used in memorial services and funerals. Compliments will commence on the first note and terminate on the last of each call when sounded. Compliments shall be paid as follows:
> 
> a. All ranks who are not part of a formed military group shall salute.
> 
> b. Formed military groups will be brought to attention and all officers shall salute. A Royal or General Salute will be ordered if appropriate. If the group is armed, the troops shall present arms. In this latter case the salute shall be held for the silent interval between Last Post and Reveille.
> 
> c. On defence establishments, all vehicles in the vicinity shall be stopped and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments.
> 
> 9. Lecture Rooms.
> 
> a. When a visiting officer or dignitary senior to the instructor enters a lecture room, theatre, etc, the instructor or senior member present shall call the group to attention. All members of the class shall sit at attention, arms straight at the side, head and eyes to the front, and heels together.
> 
> b. Where it may be impracticable or hazardous to call the group to attention, the order, STAND FAST, will be given. Members of the group shall suspend all possible action, without causing physical danger to themselves or damage to equipment, until the order CARRY ON is given.
> 
> 10. Anthems.    When the Royal Anthem, Vice Regal Anthem, National Anthem (see A-AD-200-000/AG-000) or the national anthem of a foreign country is played, all shall stand and:
> 
> a. All ranks who are not part of a formed military group shall salute. The salute shall commence with the playing of the first note of music and shall be cut away at the end of the last note.
> 
> b. Formed military groups shall be called to attention and all officers or the person in charge shall salute; formed military groups bearing arms shall present arms.
> 
> c. On defence establishments, all vehicles within hearing distance shall be stopped and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments.
> 
> 11. National Flag.    When the National Flag is hoisted or lowered at defence establishments, all ranks within view shall face the flagpole or mast, stand at attention and pay compliments as follows:
> 
> a. All who are not part of a formed military group shall salute.
> 
> b. Unarmed military groups shall be halted facing the flagpole, and the officer or non-commissioned member in charge of the group shall salute.
> 
> c. Armed parties shall present arms.
> 
> d. Motor vehicles in view shall be stopped, and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments.
> 
> 12. Parades.    Officers and men who are spectators at a parade shall:
> 
> a. Stand at the arrival and departure of a reviewing officer or dignitary. When troops on parade are armed, the signal to stand at the arrival shall be the parade commander's order to SHOULDER ARMS. At the departure all ranks will remain standing after the last Royal/General Salute until the reviewing officer or dignitary leaves the parade area.
> 
> b. Salute when uncased colours pass directly in front of them. Guns are the colours of formed artillery units and will be treated as such when they roll past in review on formal ceremonial parades.
> 
> c. Salute during the playing of National Anthems and Royal Salutes.
> 
> d. Stand at attention during the playing of the General Salute.
> 
> 13. Personal Attendants.    Officers in personal attendance on a dignitary shall not salute during a Royal or General Salute to that dignitary or when a National Anthem is played as a salute for that dignitary. Those in personal attendance are defined as aides, equerries and the like closely accompanying a dignitary at a reviewing stand, parade, etc.
> 
> 14. Reporting.
> 
> a. When reporting to an officer or dignitary the following procedure shall be observed:
> 
> 1. march forward, halt two paces in front of the officer or dignitary;
> 
> 2. salute, remain of attention, await acknowledgement;
> 
> 3. deliver the message, receive instructions, etc, (see subparagraph b. below);
> 
> 4. salute, await acknowledgement; and
> 
> 5. turn right and march off.
> 
> b. At an investiture, or when receiving a decoration, take one pace forward to receive the award and one pace back following the presentation.
> 
> c. When a non-commissioned member reports to someone senior, other than an officer, the procedure outlined above shall be followed without the salute.
> 
> 15. Vehicles.
> 
> a. Compliments shall be paid to passengers in staff cars bearing distinguishing flags or general officer car plates.
> 
> b. The senior passenger in a staff car and the passenger in the front seat of other vehicles shall salute.
> 
> c. Service personnel driving a vehicle, motorcycle or bicycle shall not salute.
> 
> d. Passengers riding in the rear of trucks shall pay compliments by sitting at attention.
> 
> 16. Other Occasions.    Compliments shall be paid on other occasions as notified from time to time in the appropriate regulations, orders and instructions.
> 
> 125. MILITARY HONOURS AND GUN SALUTES
> 
> 1. Further information on this subject is contained in A-PD-200-000/PT-100.
> 
> 2. Gun salutes are normally paid independent of other honours, and need not accompany or be accompanied by other honours.
> 
> 3. Gun salutes shall normally commence at an appropriate time so as to terminate with the receiving dignitary's arrival in location.
> 
> 4. If the location is one in which troops have been drawn up for review or a guard of honour has been mounted, the point of arrival is normally the dais.
> 
> 5. When gun salutes and arms drill salutes are connected in the same ceremonial event, the event commander can coordinate the two, as well as the musical salute, for best effect. When circumstances prevent adequate warning of the dignitary's approach, it may be most effective to render the gun and arms drill salutes together. On these occasions, the gun salute shall normally commence on the final movement of the present arms, and the arms salute shall be concluded in the normal manner and the parade continued regardless of the fact that the gun salute may still be underway.
> 
> 6. Gun salutes shall not be fired so as to cause aural discomfort to the receiving dignitary.
> 
> 126. COMMISSIONED WARSHIPS AND BOATS
> 
> 1. Service personnel shall salute when:
> 
> a. boarding or leaving a commissioned warship; and
> 
> b. mounting the quarter deck.
> 
> 2. Compliments in boats shall be paid as follows:
> 
> a. The officer in charge of a boat or the coxswain shall salute. One member of the boat's crew shall be detailed to salute if the design of the boat places the officer or coxswain in an inconspicuous position.
> 
> b. In service whalers under oars, compliments are paid by giving the order, OARS. One stroke after the order is given, the crew sit to attention with their oars horizontal and at right angles to the fore and aft line of the boat with blades feathered. In service boats under sail, the sheets are let fly. In service boats under power, engines are throttled down to idle and the propeller drive disengaged to take way off the boat.
> 
> c. When a boat is alongside a landing place or accommodation ladder, or is made fast, the boatkeepers shall sit to attention and the senior occupant shall salute. All passengers and crew who are not engaged in keeping the boat alongside shall:
> 
> 1. in a decked-in power boat, stand at attention facing the officer or dignitary being saluted; and
> 
> 2. in an open boat, sit at attention.
> 
> d. Salutes shall not be exchanged when boats carrying officers of equal rank pass each other.
> 
> e. All compliments paid by or in boats shall be discretionary having due regard to safe seaman-ship practices.
> 
> 3. The Side shall be piped when the following personnel board HMC ships between the hours of colours and sunset:
> 
> a. the Sovereign;
> 
> b. member of the Royal Family of equivalent rank of Captain (N) or above when in naval uniform;
> 
> c. the Governor General of Canada and the Lieutenant-Governors of Provinces within their areas of responsibility;
> 
> d. Canadian and Commonwealth officers of the rank of Commodore or Brigadier-General and above when in uniform;
> 
> e. all officers in uniform holding an appointment in command of a formation or group of ships, or an officer in command of a single ship;
> 
> f. members of a court martial attending or leaving the court;
> 
> g. the officer of the guard when flying his pennant;
> 
> h. all naval officers of other than Commonwealth nations in uniform at all hours; and
> 
> i. a body when being brought aboard or sent out of ship, at all times.
> 
> 4. The Side is normally piped for an officer entitled to it even though accompanying an officer holding a senior rank or appointment who is not so entitled.


----------



## Sig_Des

My favourite thing to do was always salute officers on a bicycle...I know I'm not supposed to, but it's funny as hell.


----------



## George Wallace

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> My favourite thing to do was always salute officers on a bicycle...I know I'm not supposed to, but it's funny as hell.



15. Vehicles.    

    c. Service personnel driving a vehicle, motorcycle or bicycle shall not salute.  


As is so often the case, it is those who are ignorant of this, who are the most comical.

[Edit to add.]
However, you are still to salute the officer.  The same goes if the officer has his/her arms full of boxes or other items.  You will salute, and they will verbally acknowledge your compliment.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Is this discussion really happening??


----------



## armyvern

George Wallace said:
			
		

> [Edit to add.]
> However, you are still to salute the officer.  The same goes if the officer has his/her arms full of boxes or other items.  You will salute, and they will verbally acknowledge your compliment.



Geez George, I just sent him a PM saying the same thing!! You must be my long lost identical twin!!  ;D

And Bruce, yes, indeed it is!!


----------



## George Wallace

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Is this discussion really happening??



Yes!

It appears some did not pay attention to their introductory classes when they joined the CF.


----------



## navymich

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Is this discussion really happening??



No it's not.  You're just imagining things.  You have been working too many night shifts.  Go have a beer then a nap, and it will all go away.  ;D


----------



## tank recce

I notice there's nothing there about AFVs. I remember being up in Meaford, shuttling Cougars from the VLA to Andrews for a weekend course, when the morning Anthem was played. All the pedestrians around stopped & saluted; I ordered my driver to halt, and my gunner to traverse & depress towards the BOR while I saluted. Got some -weird- looks from the RCR-types floating about...  ;D

Funniest thing I ever saw - young 2Lt loitering about the verges of the square is approached by a senior MCpl; said MCpl slams firmly to attention, twitches his right arm, but doesn't salute. Young officer, sucked in by the deke, salutes first. The salute was returned smartly, with a loud "Thank you, sir!" thrown in for good measure...  >


----------



## SupersonicMax

tank recce said:
			
		

> I notice there's nothing there about AFVs. I remember being up in Meaford, shuttling Cougars from the VLA to Andrews for a weekend course, when the morning Anthem was played. All the pedestrians around stopped & saluted; I ordered my driver to halt, and my gunner to traverse & depress towards the BOR while I saluted. Got some -weird- looks from the RCR-types floating about...  ;D
> 
> Funniest thing I ever saw - young 2Lt loitering about the verges of the square is approached by a senior MCpl; said MCpl slams firmly to attention, twitches his right arm, but doesn't salute. Young officer, sucked in by the deke, salutes first. The salute was returned smartly, with a loud "Thank you, sir!" thrown in for good measure...  >



I don't see why one would do that... Don't salute me, I don't really mind... But don't make fun of me that way!

Max


----------



## armyvern

tank recce said:
			
		

> I notice there's nothing there about AFVs. I remember being up in Meaford, shuttling Cougars from the VLA to Andrews for a weekend course, when the morning Anthem was played. All the pedestrians around stopped & saluted; I ordered my driver to halt, and my gunner to traverse & depress towards the BOR while I saluted. Got some -weird- looks from the RCR-types floating about...  ;D


You wouldn't have gotten any weird looks from the RCRs in Gagetown for this. They'd be too used to disembarking their vehicles on Broad Road outside the main gate of the Base to salute the raising or lowering of the Canadian Flag (as we should) to be thrown off by this.  


			
				tank recce said:
			
		

> Funniest thing I ever saw - young 2Lt loitering about the verges of the square is approached by a senior MCpl; said MCpl slams firmly to attention, twitches his right arm, but doesn't salute. Young officer, sucked in by the deke, salutes first. The salute was returned smartly, with a loud "Thank you, sir!" thrown in for good measure...  >


Wow, what an excellent display of leadership and professionalism by that MCpl;  :

He'd have been thanking me for the extras when he left my office too had I witnessed it.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

airmich said:
			
		

> No it's not.  You're just imagining things.  You have been working too many night shifts.  Go have a beer then a nap, and it will all go away.  ;D



Nappy sounds good right now........maybe when I wake this whole thread will have been a sad, sad dream.


----------



## George Wallace

tank recce said:
			
		

> I notice there's nothing there about AFVs. I remember being up in Meaford, shuttling Cougars from the VLA to Andrews for a weekend course, when the morning Anthem was played. All the pedestrians around stopped & saluted; I ordered my driver to halt, and my gunner to traverse & depress towards the BOR while I saluted. Got some -weird- looks from the RCR-types floating about...  ;D
> 
> Funniest thing I ever saw - young 2Lt loitering about the verges of the square is approached by a senior MCpl; said MCpl slams firmly to attention, twitches his right arm, but doesn't salute. Young officer, sucked in by the deke, salutes first. The salute was returned smartly, with a loud "Thank you, sir!" thrown in for good measure...  >



That is a new one for me.  Seeing as you are not on Parade doing a Roll Past, I would think that the proper thing for you to have done is:

10. Anthems.     When the Royal Anthem, Vice Regal Anthem, National Anthem (see A-AD-200-000/AG-000) or the national anthem of a foreign country is played, all shall stand and: 

   a. All ranks who are not part of a formed military group shall salute. The salute shall commence with the playing of the first note of music and shall be cut away at the end of the last note. 

   b. Formed military groups shall be called to attention and all officers or the person in charge shall salute; formed military groups bearing arms shall present arms. 

   c. On defence establishments, all vehicles within hearing distance shall be stopped and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments. 

11. National Flag.    When the National Flag is hoisted or lowered at defence establishments, all ranks within view shall face the flagpole or mast, stand at attention and pay compliments as follows: 

   a. All who are not part of a formed military group shall salute. 

   b. Unarmed military groups shall be halted facing the flagpole, and the officer or non-commissioned member in charge of the group shall salute. 

   c. Armed parties shall present arms. 

d. Motor vehicles in view shall be stopped, and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments.  



And I say again......Apparently many have not paid attention to their Introductory Lectures on Saluting and Paying of Compliments, when they joined the CF.   :


----------



## cplcaldwell

> I don't see why one would do that... Don't salute me, I don't really mind... But don't make fun of me that way!



Not to worry Max, OR's _never_ make fun of Offrs, and Army types_ never _ make fun of the blue suited mob.

You're doubly safe my friend... it could never happen 


PS 
Seriously though, 
Why would one do it ? 
Stupidity comes to mind.


----------



## tank recce

George Wallace said:
			
		

> That is a new one for me.  Seeing as you are not on Parade doing a Roll Past, I would think that the proper thing for you to have done is:
> 
> 10. Anthems.     When the Royal Anthem, Vice Regal Anthem, National Anthem (see A-AD-200-000/AG-000) or the national anthem of a foreign country is played, all shall stand and:
> 
> a. All ranks who are not part of a formed military group shall salute. The salute shall commence with the playing of the first note of music and shall be cut away at the end of the last note.
> 
> b. Formed military groups shall be called to attention and all officers or the person in charge shall salute; formed military groups bearing arms shall present arms.
> 
> c. On defence establishments, all vehicles within hearing distance shall be stopped and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments.
> 
> 11. National Flag.    When the National Flag is hoisted or lowered at defence establishments, all ranks within view shall face the flagpole or mast, stand at attention and pay compliments as follows:
> 
> a. All who are not part of a formed military group shall salute.
> 
> b. Unarmed military groups shall be halted facing the flagpole, and the officer or non-commissioned member in charge of the group shall salute.
> 
> c. Armed parties shall present arms.
> 
> d. Motor vehicles in view shall be stopped, and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments.


 (changed colour in your quote to highlight the parts that I think support MY case)

Roll past or no, is it not appropriate to Present Arms as an AFV, when mounted as a crew? How large a group is a "formed military group bearing arms"?


----------



## IN HOC SIGNO

Crantor said:
			
		

> I saluted an officer in a parc outside NDHQ.  She was having lunch and was seated on a bench.  Maybe it she was suprised by the salute or my voice saying "Ma'am!"  but she saluted with her left hand (the right one was holding an awkward looking sandwich and her mouth was full) she also had her headress off for obvious reasons.  I had to smile.  I think she was more in shock realising what just had happened, you could see it on her face the moment her hand went up. ;D



Sorry but I think that is unreasonable for you to have done that. I once had an RCR soldier salute my back while I was paying for stuff and counting out change in the Drug Store in the Oromocto Mall...sorry but that's just stupid. He was trying to embarrass me rather than being respectful. I said thank you but certainly didn't return the salute I wouldn't have returned your salute while eating in a park with my right hand occupied either. 
I think you might cut people a little slack. The saluting is a sign of respect for the commission the person holds but he or she is a person and doesn't deserve to be embarrassed.


----------



## George Wallace

tank recce said:
			
		

> (changed colour in your quote to highlight the parts that I think support MY case)
> 
> Roll past or no, is it not appropriate to Present Arms as an AFV, when mounted as a crew? How large a group is a "formed military group bearing arms"?



Armed parties, means persons bearing arms; ie. Small Arms.  An AFV does not fall into that category.  Can you physically lift an AFV, ie. bear it?

It is a vehicle.  You dismount, exactly the same way as if you were all in a car or MLVW, and pay your respects that way.  

A group bearing arms could be as small as two men standing on guard at the gate.  After all, one person is not a group.   :


----------



## TN2IC

The Librarian said:
			
		

> OK, so are you insinuating that you would do this in Petawawa because you know the Officers there will call you on it if you don't; but that you wouldn't in Halifax because those Officers wouldn't call you on it?
> 
> Interesting. Be careful though, I know a whole bunch on Army Officers posted to that location too....



Vern, some of these Navy officers march to their own drum. They frown apond saluting in buildings. But if you are across the road and he is walking the other day.. you better high 5 them. I learned the hard way...  ???


----------



## George Wallace

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Sorry but I think that is unreasonable for you to have done that. I once had an RCR soldier salute my back while I was paying for stuff and counting out change in the Drug Store in the Oromocto Mall...sorry but that's just stupid. He was trying to embarrass me rather than being respectful. I said thank you but certainly didn't return the salute I wouldn't have returned your salute while eating in a park with my right hand occupied either.
> I think you might cut people a little slack. The saluting is a sign of respect for the commission the person holds but he or she is a person and doesn't deserve to be embarrassed.



I find nothing wrong with that RCR saluting you while you were partially turned, as you obviously saw him.  As for being embarrassed, there is no need to be, but a simple verbal acknowledgement of "Thank you" would have sufficed had you been busy with a transaction at the counter.  It is the same as the officer on the bicycle or carrying an armload.  Obviously they can not return the salute with their hands, but they can still say "Thank you" or "Good Day."  Nothing embarrassing with that.  Nothing improper with that either.

I have driven a General, who actually stopped the car and had his Major get out and ream out soldiers who did not Salute a Flagged and Plated Staff Car.


----------



## armyvern

TN2IC said:
			
		

> Vern, some of these Navy officers march to their own drum. They frown apond saluting in buildings. But if you are across the road and he is walking the other day.. you better high 5 them. I learned the hard way...  ???



See below regulations. If the building IS NOT a designated saluting area then you do not salute in it, whether it's on an Army, Navy or Air Base doesn't really matter.


----------



## George Wallace

TN2IC said:
			
		

> Vern, some of these Navy officers march to their own drum. They frown apond saluting in buildings.



Read the POSTED INSTRUCTIONS, right out of the CANADIAN FORCES MANUAL OF DRILL AND CEREMONIAL
.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

I think I hear the sound of the rusty lock closing on this topic..................................


----------



## armyvern

IN HOC SIGNO said:
			
		

> Sorry but I think that is unreasonable for you to have done that. I once had an RCR soldier salute my back while I was paying for stuff and counting out change in the Drug Store in the Oromocto Mall...sorry but that's just stupid. He was trying to embarrass me rather than being respectful. I said thank you but certainly didn't return the salute I wouldn't have returned your salute while eating in a park with my right hand occupied either.
> I think you might cut people a little slack. The saluting is a sign of respect for the commission the person holds but he or she is a person and doesn't deserve to be embarrassed.



Padre,

Base Gagetown Standing Orders direct that personnel WILL remain wearing their head-dress in the Oromocto mall, and that they WILL salute; that would mean that any Comissioned Officer who was saluted in the Mall is *required* to return that salute.

I'd say this soldier was obeying directives and most certainly was not trying to embarass you.

And as for the Officer eating her lunch, the member who saluted her acted IAW the regulations which direct that he *will* pay her that compliment (regardless of her activity) if the member was in uniform. Given, she would not be required to return the salute as she had her head-dress off, nor would she be required to orally return the compliment due her commission as her mouth was full.  A simple nod of her head would have sufficed as acknowledging the compliment that the member in uniform was required to pay to her.

In both cases, the saluting member obeyed the regulations regarding the proper paying of compliments to those holding comissions of Her Majesty. Any embarrassment suffered should not be placed at the feet of the members in these two cases.


----------



## NL_engineer

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> I think I hear the sound of the rusty lock closing on this topic..................................



I think the mods are having to much fun with this one ;D


----------



## armyvern

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> I think the mods are having to much fun with this one ;D



No, I just think it's quite interesting that even once the Regulations are posted right there in black & white....people still can't read them.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> I think the mods are having to much fun with this one ;D



........and it's taking to much of their time. If you don't understand what's written here, go ask your RSM (or equivilent) to explain it for you. I'm fairly positive, they'll be more than happy to explain it to you. This one's done.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Ok....awake now..............well it wasn't a sad, sad dream but at least its out of its misery.

Thanks Recceguy, I salute y................aww poop.


----------



## iw2gf

What is the proper way to address a Chief Warrant Officer? Do officers address them differently from the NCM's?


----------



## RHFC_piper

iw2gf said:
			
		

> What is the proper way to address a Chief Warrant Officer? Do officers address them differently from the NCM's?


For NCO / NCM's

'Sir'

Officers would address them by appointment (RSM) or just Chief Warrent.

simple enough?  ;D


----------



## Roy Harding

NCM's - "Sir" or "RSM" (if that is his appointment.)

Officers:  "RSM" or "Mr. Bloggins"


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

it really depends on your rank and what the CWO wants to be called .....if you are below him in rank, usually they are SIR,  CWO or RSM

and if you outrank him still called CWO or RSM, how hard does it get?
I think they cover this in training  on rank structure

only trouble i had after the rank system was explained to me......they never said what the urinal rules were......what does a Cpl do when a MGen wants to use the only urinal in the room...and your standing there and what do you say as he is standing waiting.....
( true event besides hurry yup and get out of there )


----------



## gaspasser

MWO's and CWO's are addressed as SIR, or by thier appointment.  i.e.CSM or RSM, BSM. 
In the Air Force, they are sometimes referred to by Mister as a sign of respect, or by their designator, FE would be FLIGHT and LOADIE would be the loadmaster. ( I'm not sure if a high rank Traffic Tech would be designated a loadmaster)
You would call all of them SIR or MISTER if you meet them on the street.
I'm VERY sure that if you ever addressed any of them incorrectly, you will be quickly corrected! 



"what does a Cpl do when a MGen wants to use the only urinal in the room...and your standing there and what do you say as he is standing waiting"
Hmm, I'd finish my business and flush, wash my hands and say good day sir, then walk out...simple?? 

Urinal Etiquette stipulates that very few words and maybe only a nod are accepted means of communication in or near the urinal.  Under no circumstances is it acceptable to depress your line of sight more than 1 degree below level.  (Yes, most General Officers are men with the same equipment you have, so don't bother looking and they put their pants on one leg at a time)  So Stop freaking out. :


----------



## Zoomie

Officer's call CWO's  "Chief" or "RSM".  Only the Commanding Officer will ever call him/her "Regimental Sergeant Major".


----------



## Shamrock

iw2gf said:
			
		

> Do officers address them differently from the NCM's?



No.  Junior officers will address CWO's with just as much fear and trepidation as NCM's do.


----------



## 2 Cdo

As FHG said, you address a CWO however he wants to be addressed. ;D If in doubt, use the fallback position and call him/her sir/maam.


----------



## 211RadOp

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Officer's call CWO's  "Chief" or "RSM"...



Never call an army or airforce CWO "Chief". A "Chief" is a CPO1 or CPO2.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Some of this depends on branch/Corps etc.

As we were a "calvary" unit, we were to follow the traditions and ways of one.  All officers called the RSM "RSM" and all NCMs called him "sir".

Maybe I am wrong but....I am not sure too many RSMs would like being called "Chief", seeing as that is what the CPO1/CPO2's in the Navy are called?


----------



## George Wallace

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Some of this depends on branch/Corps etc.
> 
> As we were a "calvary" unit, we were to follow the traditions and ways of one.  All officers called the RSM "RSM" and all NCMs called him "sir".
> 
> Maybe I am wrong but....I am not sure too many RSMs would like being called "Chief", seeing as that is what the CPO1/CPO2's in the Navy are called?



Remember, there is only one RSM Appointment in a Regiment, but there may be more than one CWO.  In the case that (s)he is not the RSM, they are addressed as Chief Warrant Officer (seldom as 'Chief'), or by their Appointment.  That 'Appointment' in an Armour Regiment may be as ETSM (or ET); the TQMS (or TQ); or in the QM as the RQMS (or RQ, the QM being the Officer).


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

roger, over


----------



## time expired

I remember when the new rank system came in the CWO as opposed to WO1 people started to
call them chief unless of course he happened to be the RSM or had some other appiontment,there
was one Master Gunner in the Artillery who under no circumstances was ever to refered to as chief
as he was a fullblooded Indian, Cree  I believe.
                            Regards


----------



## Gunner98

211RadOp said:
			
		

> Never call an army or airforce CWO "Chief". A "Chief" is a CPO1 or CPO2.



Unless of course he asks you to.  I have met a few HSS CWOs (Army & AF) who preferred to be called Chief.


----------



## a_majoor

I always find "Sir" works very nicely........


----------



## FredDaHead

Whatever you do, don't translate "Chief" to "Chef." ...That means MCpl, NOT CWO. (It's especially bad if said CWO is a Vandoo)

But maybe the only people silly enough to make that mistake are at RMC, I dunno...


----------



## x-zipperhead

Yeah "Chief Warrant Officer" is a mouthful. I  keep it simple and call them Sir/Ma'am.  I am still getting use to calling MWO and CWO in the airforce "Chief" (at least in the MPA/MH communities.  It must be the naval roots.)  It just doesn't come naturally after 12 years in the combat arms but I'm working on it.


----------



## Franko

Topic answered. Thread locked.

Anyone have anything to add PM a mod or the original posting member.

Regards

*The Army.ca Staff*


----------



## Lumber

Searched and could not find an answer to my specific question.

I was at Transport today up at CFB Kingston having something changed on my 404s, and the MCpl kept addressing me as Sir. This is actually common place up on base, whether at Supply, CDU 3 or wherever, the NCMs as high as Master Warrants (that I've seen) address us as Sir or Ma'am.

I know that the proper way to address on OCdt/NCdt is "Mr/Mrs Bloggins". 

But how are we suppose to be addressed when the OCdt/NCdts name is not known? 

Should the MCpl have left out my name and said "Good day Mr, what can I do for you?"


----------



## Michael OLeary

There is nothing wrong with the use of "Sir/Ma'am" in such as situation.


----------



## Lumber

Michael O`Leary said:
			
		

> There is nothing wrong with the use of "Sir/Ma'am" in such as situation.



I did not know that, thank you.


----------



## Shamrock

Source: THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES (A-AD-200-000/AG-000)

FORMAL ADDRESS 
9. In formal address, either written or spoken, the correct form of address shall be as follows:
a. Officers shall be addressed 
(1) by officers of higher or equal rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment;
(2) on parade, or when in keeping with authorized environmental or branch usage –
(a) by officers of higher rank or higher parade appointment, by rank and surname, or by appointment; and
(b) by officers of equal rank but lower parade appointment by Sir or Ma'am as applicable; and
(3) by all other officers and noncommissioned members, by rank and surname, or by Sir or Ma'am as applicable.

b. Chief Petty Officers 1st Class and Chief Warrant Officers shall be addressed by all ranks –
(1) by rank, by rank or surname, or by appointment; or
(2) for army and air force chief warrant officers –
(a) by officers and ranking peers, by Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate, followed by surname, and
(b) by lower ranks, by Sir or Ma'am as appropriate.

c. Other non-commissioned members shall be addressed – by all ranks, by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment.


----------



## ChaosTheory

We are officers, we may not have our commission yet so I do not see a problem with being called sir/ma'am.

Expecting it is a whole different story.

Then again I found when on EWAT at ASU Chilliwack that no one knew what to address me and a higher ranking NCO was referring to me as the "2Lt" tell I told him I was just an OCdt.


----------



## Shamrock

QR&O, CHAPTER 3

RANK, SENIORITY, COMMAND AND PRECEDENCE

Section 1 – Rank and Seniority

3.01 – RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK

(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides: 
I
OFFICERS

1. General
2. Lieutenant-General
3. Major-General
4. Brigadier-General
5. Colonel
6. Lieutenant-Colonel
7. Major
8. Captain
9. Lieutenant
10. Second Lieutenant
11. Officer Cadet

II
NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS
12. Chief Warrant Officer
13. Master Warrant Officer
14. Warrant Officer
15. Sergeant
16. Corporal
17. Private

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member who, on or after the date this article comes into force (18 September 1986), holds a rank in the Canadian Forces set out in paragraph (1) and who, in accordance with orders and instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff wears a naval uniform, shall use and be referred to by the designation of rank set out in Column II of the Schedule to the National Defence Act having the same serial number as that of his rank in paragraph (1), and reference in this paragraph to the rank held by an officer or non-commissioned member includes any rank to which the member may be promoted, reduced or reverted from time to time. 

(3) Except in accordance with paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member shall, after the coming into force of this article, use or be referred to by a designation of rank other than as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act. 

In others' defence, I was 'taught' that "Mr." was a proper form of address for OCdts.  I've found some evidence that this is an acceptable use of informal address, but the regs look as though "Mr." is properly reserved for CWO's; if this is the case, "Mr." is an earned appelation and should be very selectively used.


----------



## Lumber

benny88 said:
			
		

> I consider hearing things from Instructors and/or Superiours "being taught"
> 
> 
> We'll move on, then. I have been instructed and witnessed an OCdt be addressed as "Mr." as have others in this thread, but it could be a geographic/element thing and is really not worth getting worked up over.
> 
> Cheers.



I've never read the regs on the matter, but I come from a unit/institution that has not only the largest number, but largest concentration of O/NCdts in all of the CF, by FAR. We have all been taught (both here and at the MEGA on IAP/BOTP) that the proper way that we are suppose to be addressed is Mr/Mrs Bloggins. Not only is that what we were taught, but it is what we experience. I have been addressed as Mr. Bloggins by my Squaddie, the DSM, our Division Warrants and the Commandant the one time I had the opportunity to speak with him one on one (former Commandant albeit).

If this is unacceptable incorrect, then we have several thousands RMC cadets and graduates, as well as a plethora of NCOs, Warrants and Officers, to correct on the matter.

If addressing us as Sir/Maam is appropriate and acceptable in certain situations, so be it. It has a nice ring to it. 

The purpose I see in keeping this thread open is to try and determine the origin of this "incorrect" addressing of O/NCdts as Mr/Mrs.


----------



## Michael OLeary

We're done here, this is obviously one subject that some people have an inability to actually discuss without gravitating into bickering.  Do not ask for the thread to be reopened.  Do not be surprised if any posts not specific to the original question are removed.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Blackadder1916

The form of address used is based as much on custom, tradition and proper etiquette as it is on regulation.  During my career (NCM and officer) I was instructed, taught, told, or simply absorbed that it is proper to call officer cadets “Sir” or affix “Mister” to their surname, as well as using their rank when addressing them.  But the requirement was *situational* and changed depending on a number of factors; the rank relationship to the cadet, the work or social milieu, the unit or corps, the stupidity level of the cadet.  Of course, the use of ‘honorifics’ much more horrific is also common when dealing with the (ahem) young ladies and gentlemen, particularly those who don't get the point when justifiably hit with an idiot stick.  

Yes, at that great congregation of officer cadets known as RMC, the common practice is to refer to cadets as “Mister ****” and the NCMs who interact with them on a day to day basis refrain from calling them “Sir”.   That is the situation of a training establishment where the local custom (and perhaps local regulation) permits such.  It will not always be so depending on the time and place.  Ill-advised attempts by some junior (and occasionally senior) members to publicly treat subordinate officers as whale **** when inappropriate to do so has sometimes resulted in consequences for such members.  However, let’s not forget more than one cadet has (justifiably?) incurred ridicule and wrath when succumbing to fantasies of self-importance.  While a humbling experience, it can be a useful part of an officer’s education.

The use (military or civilian) of the title "Mister" was historically applied to "gentlemen".  At one time the inmates at RMC (like their Sandhurst cousins) were referred to as "Gentlemen Cadets".

In The Moon's a Balloon, David Niven related some of his experiences at Sandhurst.


> "...We were called "Gentlemen Cadets".  The officers and non-commissioned officer instructors were the pick of the whole British Army and the drill instructors were exclusively, the pick of the Brigade of Guards.  Knowing that you were due to become an officer in eighteen months' time, the N.C.O.'s could call you anything they liked provided they prefaced it with a 'Mr. So-and-So, Sir.'
> 
> .  .  . we smiled nervously at each other as we awaited the ministrations of 'Robbo' [Company Sergeant Major Robinson, Grenadier Guards].
> 
> Rapidly and with the minimum of trimmings, Robbo explained that although it looked unlikely at the moment, we were supposed to be officer material and it had fallen to his unfortunate lot to try, within eighteen months, to transform this ' 'orrible shower' into being worthy of the King's commission.
> 
> "I shall address you as "Sir" because that's the orders but when you speak to me you'll stand to attention, look me right in the eye and call me Staff...got it?"
> 
> Scattered murmurs of ‘yes’, ‘right-ho’ and ‘jolly good’ were silenced by one of the mightiest roars in the British Army.
> 
> ‘GOT IT!!!??? Now let me hear the answer, Gentlemen . . . ONE, TWO, THREE’ . . . ‘GOT IT STAFF,’ we roared back.



However the use of  “Mister” is not reserved exclusively for Officer Cadets and Chief Warrant Officers.  The title was applied in lieu of rank to subalterns in the Army (and similarly in the Navy) because these officers were gentlemen.  In the case of RSMs (WO1/CWO) use of “Mister” probably evolved as a sign of respect for a ‘man’ who had reached such a high professional station that the ‘gentlemen’ (officers) of his regiment could speak to him on an almost equal footing.

And from a dusty old box of things I've retained over a career.  When I attended BOTC at CFOCS Chilliwack the Warrant Officer and NCO instructors did not call the candidates “Sir”.  Like most officer basic training establishments, they tended to segregate the OCdts (and 2Lts aka Thick Officer Cadets) from the serving soldiers.  That is an appropriate way of doing things and perhaps one of the reasons why there is no readily available and singularly quotable reference on the subject of what to call cadets.  There are no great herds of Gentlemen Cadets roaming at will in the CF, therefore there is little cause to think much of them.

CFOCS Officers' Handbook Edition 1 July 1985


> Chapter 9 Forms of Address
> 
> 1.  On parade, an officer always addresses other officers senior to him, whether by rank or appointment as “Sir”.  When a subaltern is addressed or referred to in an unofficial way, he is spoken to as "Mr. Smith" but in an official way he is referred to by his actual rank, i.e. "Lieutenant Smith”.  Female officers should always be paid the same compliments as male officers of equivalent rank.  The correct form of address for female officers is 'ma'am'.
> 
> 2.  When on parade a subaltern will address a captain as "Sir".  At other times he may address him by his first name at the invitation of the captain being addressed .  In some units the use of christian names and nicknames is customary but this should be very carefully indulged in by new officers.  For equals in rank, be guided by the age of officers and length of acquaintance.  Field officers should be addressed as "Sir" by captains and subalterns but it should not be laboured on or used so frequently as to make the conversation sound ridiculous.
> 
> 3.  Chief Warrant Officers, are addressed on parade by the title of their appointment, but off parade they are usually addressed as "Mr." and their surname.  Squadron/Company Sergeant Major is a position, and only Master Warrant Officers holding such positions should be addressed as "Sergeant Major".  They are also addressed as "Sir" by their juniors in rank.
> 
> 4.  In answering an Officer or Warrant officer, other ranks always say sir.  Do not allow "Yes, Major", Yes, Lieutenant, or any other bizarre form to be used by your subordinates.
> 
> 5.  When entering the anteroom before dinner say “Good Evening Sir” to the senior officer present. Also if your Commanding Officer or any General or Field Officer enters after you, stand up and say “Good Evening Sir.”   Do not click your heels at anytime nor stand to attention on entering the anteroom, or dining room.
> 
> 6.  Today there is a closer bond of comradeship between officers and men than ever before.  A clearer understanding has grown up under modern democratic principles which in no way impairs discipline or the respect of the men for their officers.  Danger will arise only if officers fail to learn to be friendly with their men without loss of dignity or respect, always realizing that "undue familiarity breeds contempt".  Officers will not be on a first-name basis with any other rank.
> 
> "Speech is a mirror of the soul; as a man speaks, so is he."



And something that is (not surprisingly) similar.

"This is a re-print of the JUNIOR OFFICER’S GUIDE put out in 1959." . . .
http://army.ca/info/junior_officers_guide.php


> Section IV
> 
> FORMS OF ADDRESS
> 
> (a) When entering the ante room before dinner say “Good Evening Sir” to the senior officer present. Also if your Commanding Officer or any General or Field Officer enters after you, stand up and say “Good Evening Sir.”
> 
> Do NOT click your heels at anytime nor stand to attention on entering the ante room or dinning room.
> 
> (b) On parade an officer should always address other officers senior to him, whether by rank or appointment as “Sir.”
> 
> (c) When a subaltern is addressed on parade or referred to in an unofficial way he is mentioned as “Mr. Smith,” but in an official way he is referred to by his actual rank, i.e. “Lieutenant Smith” or “2nd Lieutenant Smith.”
> 
> (d) Except on parade it is advisable to avoid addressing a Captain as “Captain Jones.” However if it is desirable for any reason to address an officer by his rank this form may be used. It is quite wrong to address a Captain as “Captain” without using his surname.
> 
> (e) Field Officers should be addressed as “Sir” by Captains and subalterns, but it should not be laboured, or used so frequently as to make the conversation sound ridiculous. It is not incorrect to address a Colonel or Major by his rank alone, but the possibility of appearing unduly familiar makes it advisable for junior officers to adopt this habit only after considerable length of service, and more than an ordinary acquaintance with the Senior. Obviously a subaltern is rarely in a position to do so.
> 
> (f) It is customary when meeting any officer of the Armed Forces in the street to bid him “Good Morning” whether you know him or not. It is for the junior to speak first. If he is of field rank he should also be saluted.
> 
> (g) Warrant Officers Class I are addressed on parade by the title of their appointment e.g. “Sergeant-Major Brown” but off parade they are usually addressed as “Mr.”
> 
> (h) Other Warrant Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers are always addressed by their rank.
> 
> (j) Private soldiers are always addressed by their surname only.
> 
> (k) Other Ranks address Officers by their rank and name except subalterns whom they address by using “Mr.” and their name. In answering an Officer or Warrant Officer, Other Ranks always say “Sir.” Do not allow “Yes, Major,” “Yes Lieutenant,” or any other bizarre form to be used by your subordinates.



But there are still corps differences.

http://regimentalrogue.com/srsub/army_customs_1956_sect5.htm


> 1. The R.S.M.
> In some regiments, corps or units it is customary to address the R.S.M. as " Mr. ----," while in others he is addressed as "Sergeant-Major." An officer on joining his regiment or new unit should find out which custom is in use by asking the Adjutant or some other officer of the unit.
> . . .
> 4. Address-by rank
> When addressing a warrant officer, an officer should do so by using his military rank or appointment. That is to say a Company Sergeant-Major should be addressed as "Company Sergeant-Major." For procedure when addressing a Regimental Sergeant-Major see sub-para. 1
> 
> When addressing a non-commissioned officer, an officer should do so by using the N.C.O's rank and name. For example, a Corporal should be addressed as "Corporal Snooks."



CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS OF THE CME A-JS-007-003/JD-001
http://www.admie.forces.gc.ca/dgcps/CME_customs_Split_internet/English/Chapter_5_Customs_Service.pdf


> FORMS OF ADDRESS
> 8.  In all military organizations, there is a strict code on how members should address both superiors and subordinates. This formal code has been developed over many centuries and was once commonly utilized but, since society has become much more relaxed, it is rarely used today to the full extent once practised. The military has found that, especially in combat situations where people are living closely together and orders must be followed without hesitation, it is imperative that the hierarchical culture be maintained. For this reason, the CME and all military branches continue to use this form of courtesy that stems from an awareness of people and a respect for others rights and feelings. It is not one-sided and should be observed by all, and extended to all. The guidelines for addressing both superiors and subordinates are explained in the following paragraphs.
> 
> 9.  All ranks shall address a more superior officer as “Sir” or “Ma’am” or by the appropriate rank; however, “Sir” and “Ma’am” should not be used so frequently as to make conversation awkward. Even during sporting events or relaxed social functions, proper forms of address are used unless permission is granted to use a superior’s first name. It should be remembered that these privileges are usually only granted for the duration of the event and that once a normal work routine is resumed the proper forms of address will again be used.  Superior officers normally address junior officers by their first names.
> 
> 10.  Officers address all NCMs by their rank or, in the case of a Chief Warrant Officer, “Mister” as a preface to the surname. NCMs address other NCMs by rank, with the exception of Chief Warrant Officers. Chief Warrant Officers are not called “Chief” or “Warrant” but “Sir” by all subordinate NCMs. Only Chief Petty Officers may be addressed as “Chief,” with or without using the surname. Sergeant Major is an appointment and Master Warrant Officers and Chief Warrant Officers should be addressed as “Sergeant Major” only if they hold that appointment.
> 
> 11.  Following retirement, particularly in social and sporting events within the CME associations, CME Family members are encouraged to address one another on a first name or more relaxed basis. The use of former ranks is reserved for formal occasions such as parades in direct association with serving members, where retired members continue to respect the protocols of serving members, for obvious reasons.
> 
> 12.  Civilian spouses do not hold the rank of their military spouse. It is, however, polite to address the spouse of a superior as “Sir” or “Ma’am” until permission is granted to use given names.


----------



## brian_k

How are warrants and PO's usually addressed? I found this on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_Officer#Forms_of_address
Is this accurate? 

Also,


> Master Warrant Officer – initially as "Master Warrant Officer Bloggins", thereafter as "Sir" or "Ma'am" by subordinates


 As an Ocdt I have used both Sergeant Major and Sir but was never really sure which I should be using. I assume Sir would be the correct way for an Ocdt to address a CSM but Im not sure at what rank using Sir would no longer be appropriate.

Does the airforce have different appointments then the arm for warrants? Appointments for PO's? Are they referred to by their appointments?


----------



## BinRat55

Just to clarify, the appointment of CSM or RSM carries the title Sergeant Major. CSM/RSM, Sir/Ma'am or Sergeant Major is acceptable. Just because a member has the rank of MWO or Chief does not automatically make them a Sergeant Major. So, unless you know that person IS a CSM or RSM, safe bet would be Sir / Ma'am.

UNLESS - you are trying to piss of a SWO in a hangar somewhere - just a note: they don't like that very much!!

And for the lad that started this thread - they are addressed just as you did in your question - PO1 or PO2 are both addressed as "PO".


----------



## Old Sweat

*As an Ocdt * I have used both Sergeant Major and Sir but was never really sure which I should be using. *I assume Sir would be the correct way for an Ocdt to address a CSM * but Im not sure at what rank using Sir would no longer be appropriate.

While it certainly does not reflect the differences in knowledge, ability and responsibility, it is not correct for an officer cadet to address any warrant officer, no matter how high or prestigious the apointment, as sir, especially in day to day situations. Simply, the officer cadet is higher in rank than the warrant officer, and the sir should come the other way. (There are many ways of saying 'sir' but that is another story.)

I am a military dinosaur and I may be wildly out of step with today's norms, but that is how it was practiced when the number of hairs on my head numbered more than my waist size. One Monday morning in Petawawa a million years ago I yes sirred the sergeant major on morning parade; ninety minutes later I suddenly was an officer cadet and he had no problem greeting me with "good morning, sir."


----------



## Michael OLeary

Before this thread goes any further, I would like to advise all that this thread WILL NOT be allowed to turn into one more anti-OCdt slamfest.  Discuss the proprieties of forms of address IAW published regulations and openly accepted practice.  Anyone's personal views on the roles and addressing of OCdts which do not conform to CF practices are unnecessary additions that may see your posts removed without further warning.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## BinRat55

It's not correct for any rank - OCdt or otherwise - to call a WO or below "Sir". It is, however, correct for anyone - no matter the rank, to address any ranks above WO (MWO, CWO, ALL officer ranks including OCdt) Sir... just don't salute a chief - they don't like that either...

That being said, years ago (don't know if it's still practiced today) I noticed reservists would call WO's "sir". Why was / is that?


----------



## MedCorps

I have a funny sorry about this... 

When was was a newly minted Lieutenant (6 months after being an OCdt) I had the chance to meet the CF CWO for lunch at the Sr. NCO's mess in Ottawa. 

When introduced, I nodded by head and said, "Thank you for the kind invite to your mess, Sir".  

Well... it did not go over so well... I got this look from him and then turned so our back were both away from the others in the group and made it clear that despite what I may have been told, felt, seen on TV, or otherwised imagined that he WILL be addressed at CWO Soandso or Mr. Soandso.  

Embarrassing to say the least, and honestly it was not a lack of knowledge that led me to call him Sir (as I knew better) but rather just the awestruck  nature of a young officer being the the Sr. NCO's mess and meeting the CF CWO. 

Cheers, 

MC


----------



## Edward Campbell

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> It's not correct for any rank - OCdt or otherwise - to call a WO or below "Sir". It is, however, correct for anyone - no matter the rank, below the rank of MWO to address any ranks in the army or air force above WO (MWO, CWO, ALL officer ranks including OCdt) Sir... just don't salute a chief - they don't like that either...
> 
> That being said, years ago (don't know if it's still practiced today) I noticed reservists would call WO's "sir". Why was / is that?



Please note my corrections. I believe it is still incorrect to address navy CPOs as sir, but I'm happy to be corrected.


----------



## armyvern

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Please note my corrections. I believe it is still incorrect to address navy CPOs as sir, but I'm happy to be corrected.



Oh you are correct: Naval CPOs should most certainly be addressed as "Chief."

I've got 5 extras from my youth that back that up.  ;D


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I find that within the Cbt Arms, most will address a WO as Warrant, or maybe by his station SQ, CQ, for example. However, on many occasions I've heard purple trades address a WO as Sir.


----------



## Blackadder1916

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> It's not correct for any rank - OCdt or otherwise - to call a WO or below "Sir". It is, however, correct for anyone - no matter the rank, to address any ranks above WO (MWO, CWO, ALL officer ranks including OCdt) Sir... just don't salute a chief - they don't like that either...



Despite the amendments of E.R.C., it is not correct for subordinates to address MWOs as "sir".  It may have been an informal practice in the past (I think it came from the Air Force), but is not correct according to A-AD-200-000/AG-000.



> FORMAL ADDRESS
> 
> 9. In formal address, either written or spoken, the correct form of address shall be as follows:
> 
> a. Officers shall be addressed -
> (1) by officers of higher or equal rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment;
> (2) on parade, or when in keeping with authorized environmental or branchusage
> (a) by officers of higher rank or higher parade appointment, by rank and surname, or by appointment; and
> (b) by officers of equal rank but lower parade appointment by Sir or Ma’am as applicable; and
> (3) by all other officers and noncommissioned members, by rank and surname, or by Sir or Ma’am as applicable.
> 
> b. *Chief Petty Officers 1st Class and Chief Warrant Officers shall be addressed* by all ranks -
> (1) by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment; or
> (2) for army and air force chief warrant officers
> (a) by officers and ranking peers, by Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate, followed by surname, and
> (b) *by lower ranks, by Sir or Ma’am as appropriate*.
> 
> c. *Other non-commissioned members shall be addressed – by all ranks, by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment*.
> 
> INFORMAL ADDRESS
> 
> 10. Normally, short forms of address (see Annex A) are limited to informal speech and in the salutation of informal correspondence.
> 
> 11. Nothing in this order prohibits the continued use of given names in a social setting within the bounds of normal etiquette and traditional military discipline.


----------



## MedCorps

A fine publication.  

And to think I am normally the fellow to pull out the publication of choice.  

Good to see that someone else did <smile>.

MC


----------



## Edward Campbell

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Despite the amendments of E.R.C., it is not correct for subordinates to address MWOs as "sir".  It may have been an informal practice in the past (I think it came from the Air Force), but is not correct according to A-AD-200-000/AG-000.



Sorry about that, but in the past, _waaaaay_ in the past I hasten to add, it was more than just "informal practice." A WOII was a "sir," no ifs, ands or buts. It changed sometime, obviously - probably when I wasn't looking or no longer had to care very much.


----------



## Blackadder1916

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Sorry about that, but in the past, _waaaaay_ in the past I hasten to add, it was more than just "informal practice." A WOII was a "sir," no ifs, ands or buts. It changed sometime, obviously - probably when I wasn't looking or no longer had to care very much.



Since my gluteus may not sag as much yet as yours, I will bow to your greater experience.  In fact, I should have reviewed a reference I used in another thread.



> CFOCS Officers' Handbook Edition 1 July 1985
> 
> Chapter 9 Forms of Address
> 
> 1.  On parade, an officer always addresses other officers senior to him, whether by rank or appointment as “Sir”.  When a subaltern is addressed or referred to in an unofficial way, he is spoken to as "Mr. Smith" but in an official way he is referred to by his actual rank, i.e. "Lieutenant Smith”.  Female officers should always be paid the same compliments as male officers of equivalent rank.  The correct form of address for female officers is 'ma'am'.
> 
> 2.  When on parade a subaltern will address a captain as "Sir".  At other times he may address him by his first name at the invitation of the captain being addressed .  In some units the use of christian names and nicknames is customary but this should be very carefully indulged in by new officers.  For equals in rank, be guided by the age of officers and length of acquaintance.  Field officers should be addressed as "Sir" by captains and subalterns but it should not be laboured on or used so frequently as to make the conversation sound ridiculous.
> 
> *3.  Chief Warrant Officers, are addressed on parade by the title of their appointment, but off parade they are usually addressed as "Mr." and their surname.  Squadron/Company Sergeant Major is a position, and only Master Warrant Officers holding such positions should be addressed as "Sergeant Major".  They are also addressed as "Sir" by their juniors in rank.*
> 
> *4.  In answering an Officer or Warrant officer, other ranks always say sir*.  Do not allow "Yes, Major", Yes, Lieutenant, or any other bizarre form to be used by your subordinates.
> 
> 5.  When entering the anteroom before dinner say “Good Evening Sir” to the senior officer present. Also if your Commanding Officer or any General or Field Officer enters after you, stand up and say “Good Evening Sir.”   Do not click your heels at anytime nor stand to attention on entering the anteroom, or dining room.
> 
> 6.  Today there is a closer bond of comradeship between officers and men than ever before.  A clearer understanding has grown up under modern democratic principles which in no way impairs discipline or the respect of the men for their officers.  Danger will arise only if officers fail to learn to be friendly with their men without loss of dignity or respect, always realizing that "undue familiarity breeds contempt".  Officers will not be on a first-name basis with any other rank.
> 
> "Speech is a mirror of the soul; as a man speaks, so is he."



That chapter is unsurprisingly similiar (perhaps someone copied it) to Section IV of the JUNIOR OFFICER’S GUIDE put out in 1959.  That may be the explanation of the reference to Warrant Officers in para 4.  Back in 1959 they would have been WOI, WOII and Staff (Flight) Sergeant.


----------



## armyvern

recceguy said:
			
		

> I find that within the Cbt Arms, most will address a WO as Warrant, or maybe by his station SQ, CQ, for example. However, on many occasions I've heard purple trades address a WO as Sir.



In calling out the roll prior to Friday's ruck march --- I heard "Ma'am" as a response twice ... and cringed a little inside. After I had completed the call, I made the simple, yet clear statement "from now on ... Warrant will suffice." Followed by an "Understood?" ... Dammit it all to hell if I didn't get one little "Yes Ma'am" amongst the others' "Yes Warrant" response.


----------



## 1feral1

With WO1's and WO2's here in Terra Australis, and as a Sergeant, they are always SIR, never used the term 'Warrant' since I first got here, and I was nearly bitch slapped for it! Ha!

On the lighter side, I work as 'peers' with many, and its usually a first named basis when were are on our own.

RAEME is an incestous Corps at the best of times.

Gotta love the RAEME mafia, they do exist, and you are either hated or loved. Needless to say I am one of the loved ones, ha! Although I have made a few enemies the past going on 14 yrs, but they are in harmless positions, and those who really know me throughout the Corps, know what I am like.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> In calling out the roll prior to Friday's ruck march --- I heard "Ma'am" as a response twice ... and cringed a little inside. After I had completed the call, I made the simple, yet clear statement "from now on ... Warrant will suffice." Followed by an "Understood?" ... Dammit it all to hell if I didn't get one little "Yes Ma'am" amongst the others' "Yes Warrant" response.



I've only heard Sir used in response to rollcall if the highest ranking person is an officer/MWO etc milling about with us but not giving the roll call.


----------



## armyvern

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> I've only heard Sir used in response to rollcall if the highest ranking person is an officer/MWO etc milling about with us but not giving the roll call.



That is the standard should a higher rank be present on the parade at which the roll is taken.

But, for some reason, it has become _de riggeur _ within the purple bunch in the past few years to call a WO by "Ma'am" or "Sir" even when they are the highest rank in attendance. That's exactly what makes me cringe.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Ahh roger that.


----------



## armyvern

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Ahh roger that.



No worries, I'm taking corrective measures (at least at my Unit)!!  >


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Drill canes and pace sticks help with that on this end.  LOL


----------



## armyvern

Lone Wolf Quagmire said:
			
		

> Drill canes and pace sticks help with that on this end.  LOL



Perhaps I'll wait for my next jaunt as the A/CSM (with pace stick) to sort them out then ...  >


----------



## Kat Stevens

A bunch of us Sappers did our light track course in the early '80s in Floodypeg with 2VP.  We were constantly in shit, as there was much indoor saluting and calling WOs sir going on, all quite contrary to what we were doing in our own building at home.  Also apparently we were RTFO at drill, especially the right dress.


----------



## armyvern

Yeah, their drill is just a 'lil different eh??  >

The halt of The RCR is a 'lil tricky to get used to as well.


----------



## Shamrock

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That is the standard should a higher rank be present on the parade at which the roll is taken.
> 
> But, for some reason, it has become _de riggeur _ within the purple bunch in the past few years to call a WO by "Ma'am" or "Sir" even when they are the highest rank in attendance. That's exactly what makes me cringe.



Well, that's what you get for letting de riggers be in charge.


----------



## armyvern

Shamrock said:
			
		

> Well, that's what you get for letting *de riggers * [SIC] be in charge.



Nah, they pack ... and they do it well. Not too many WO being called "Sir" in their halls.


----------



## BinRat55

Ok, so it's been a DAY, my response was chewed to bits and everyone moved on. I'm hurt!! Oh well, that's the way the WARRANT crumbles, huh?  Sorry to the Navy, as of course Vern was correct (but I have not been corrected ever for calling a CPO1 "sir") and the same goes for certain air people too - SWO's like to be addressed as SWO (pronounced SWO!!).

Vern - i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that I know who called you "ma'am"... SHE doesn't work in H110, am I right?


----------



## armyvern

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Vern - i'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that I know who called you "ma'am"... SHE doesn't work in H110, am I right?



Well, I guess she doesn't, seeing as how H110 is in Pet.  >

Nor does she work here in B10. You'd probably be correct.


----------



## Thompson_JM

As bad as i feel about asking this? Could someone remind me what SWO is again?


----------



## Mike Baker

Tommy said:
			
		

> As bad as i feel about asking this? Could someone remind me what SWO is again?


I may be out of my lane here, but would it be Senior Warrent Officer?

 ???
Baker


----------



## armyvern

Baker said:
			
		

> I may be out of my lane here, but would it be Senior Warrent Officer?
> 
> ???
> Baker



Squadron Warrant Officer; or

Station WO in Alert's case.


----------



## Mike Baker

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Squadron Warrant Officer; or
> 
> Station WO in Alert's case.


Seen.

 :-[

Baker


----------



## BinRat55

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, I guess she doesn't, seeing as how H110 is in Pet.  >
> 
> Nor does she work here in B10. You'd probably be correct.



OMG!!! Vern, i'm having flashbacks!! I did say H110, didn't I? Holy CRAP, I need a vacation. Vern, I need to get posted back there with you guys.

B10.


----------



## XtremeEuph

Hello my fellow friends, my apologies if this is in the wrong location, I could not find an affiliated topic.

Ive heard several arguments discussion around my regiment lately as to whom we salute.

Anyone have a "list"? 

: Commissioned officers
Canadian Flag
Foreign Officers
Fallen Comrades
War Memorials
Prime Minister
MLA 's ?? ......here is where a few arguments come in...

Do we salute veterans at per say a Legion Hall in their dress??
Any others?

Thanks for any clarification


----------



## Michael OLeary

> THE CANADIAN FORCES MANUAL OF DRILL
> AND CEREMONIAL
> 
> 
> COMPLIMENTS
> 
> GENERAL
> 
> 1. Compliments are formal marks of respect and courtesy, i.e., salutes.
> 
> 2. The military salute is a traditional demons tration of trust and respect. Although the method of saluting varies with circumstances, the paying of compliments is a fundamental requirement that is indispensable to service discipline.
> 
> 3. In Canada, military compliments are only paid to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence; lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers. Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to 23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 et 41.
> 
> 4. Service individuals receiving a compliment shall acknowledge it.
> 
> 
> 20. Cenotaphs. Officers and men shall salute individually and formed military groups shall pay compliments when passing the National War Memorial and cenotaphs to military dead.
> 
> 
> 21. Colours. Individuals and formed military groups shall pay compliments to uncased Colours, except when the Colour is part of an escort to the deceased during a funeral (see subparagraph 23a.).
> 
> a. Halted armed groups shall present arms.
> 
> b. Military groups marching past uncased Colours shall give eyes right/left.
> 
> c. See also paragraph 30.
> 
> 22. Religious Services and Buildings. Conventional marks of respect and courtesy shall be observed during religious services and in places of worship, depending on the customs of the religion involved and the faith of the member (see A-AD-265-000/AG-001, CF Dress Instructions, Chapter 2, Section 3 for further explanation).
> 
> 23. Funerals. The following compliments shall be paid at state, military and civilian funerals:
> 
> a. The remains of the deceased take seniority and alone receive compliments during a funeral.
> 
> b. Members shall wear headdress and pay respects by saluting when passing the casket at a vigil.
> 
> c. Formed military groups shall be halted and turned to face a passing funeral procession, and the officer or member in charge will salute the deceased while passing. Individual compliments shall be paid in a similar fashion.
> 
> d. Individuals and formed military groups bearing arms shall salute a passing funeral procession by presenting arms.
> 
> e. Salutes, as above, shall be accorded the casket during interments.
> 
> f. At the end of a Service funeral, the officiating chaplain will proceed to the foot of the grave to pay his respects. Service members should then proceed to the foot of the grave, in order of seniority, to pay individual respects by saluting. When numbers warrant, members may approach in small informal groups.
> 
> g. See also paragraph 26.
> 
> 
> 25. Courtesy Salutes
> 
> a. Foreign officers shall be saluted in the same manner as Canadian officers unless the circumstances clearly dictate otherwise.
> 
> b. Service members may express their respect for individual civilians by using a salute as a formal means of greeting or farewell.
> 
> 26. Memorial Services and Funerals. Compliments to the dead shall be paid during the sounding of the calls “Last Post” and “Rouse” when they are used in memorial services and funerals. Compliments will commence on the first note and terminate on the last of each call when sounded. Compliments shall be paid as follows:
> 
> a. All ranks who are not part of a formed military group shall salute.
> 
> b. Formed military groups will be brought to attention and all officers shall salute. A Royal or General Salute will be ordered if appropriate. The funeral guard will present arms, the escort will remain at the order,
> 
> officers that form part of the escort will salute with the hand. In the latter case the salute shall be held for the silent interval between “Last Post” and “Rouse”.
> 
> c. On defence establishments, all vehicles in the vicinity shall be stopped and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments.
> 
> 
> 28. Anthems and Salutes (see also paragraph 30). When the Royal Anthem, Royal Salute, Vice-Regal Salute, National Anthem (see A-AD-200-000/AG-000, Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces) or the national anthem of a foreign country is played, all shall stand and:
> 
> a. all ranks who are not part of a formed military group shall salute. The salute shall commence with the playing of the first note of music and shall be cut away at the end of the last note;
> 
> b. formed military groups shall be called to attention and all officers or the person in charge shall salute; formed military groups bearing arms shall present arms;
> 
> c. on defence establishments, all vehicles within hearing distance shall be stopped and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments; and
> 
> d. anthems are not sung when played as part of a salute, or on a parade other than a church parade (remembrance or commemorative service/ceremony). If ordered to sing on a drumhead or remembrance ceremony, the parade will be brought to attention and all will join in the singing of the National Anthem, officers do not salute.
> 
> 
> 29. National Flag. When the National Flag is hoisted or lowered at defence establishments, all ranks in or out of uniform within view shall face the flagpole or mast, stand at attention and pay compliments as follows:
> 
> a. All who are not part of a formed military group shall salute.
> 
> b. Unarmed military groups shall be halted facing the flagpole and the officer or non-commissioned member in charge of the group shall salute;
> 
> c. Armed parties shall present arms.
> 
> d. Motor vehicles in view shall be stopped and the occupants shall dismount and pay compliments.
> 
> 
> 41. Service personnel shall salute when:
> 
> a. boarding or leaving a commissioned warship;  and
> 
> b. mounting the quarter deck.


----------



## gaspasser

Slap me if I'm wrong, but I remember some time ago that you were to salute a veteran with a VC.  Much like the Americans and their CMH.  If not, I'll be hell bent if I don't if I ever see one on a live person.
ORs are to salute an officer out of uniform IF they recognize said officer.
Wrong??!!


----------



## kratz

You are not entirely wrong. There may be some mixing of policy with some tradition and custom IMO. 

I would consider the current policy quoted above para 25b to cover VC winners. 

If I was jacked up for not saluting an office in civvies who thought I should recognize them, I'd never leave the Coxn's office. Some trades see so many people it is hard to keep track of who everyone is.

I'm confident as a professional member it is sharp to salute an office out of uniform should you recognize them as such. That is just an opionion.


----------



## danchapps

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Slap me if I'm wrong, but I remember some time ago that you were to salute a veteran with a VC.  Much like the Americans and their CMH.  If not, I'll be hell bent if I don't if I ever see one on a live person.
> ORs are to salute an officer out of uniform IF they recognize said officer.
> Wrong??!!



I've heard stories of Smokey Smith jacking up officers from his chair for not saluting his VC. Of course he always did have a hate on for officers and authority figures if the stories were true.


----------



## Michael OLeary

And he was wrong if he did, there is no requirement to salute a VC recipient (unless they are to receive compliment for other reasons, such as being a commissioned officer).

I think we can be confident that if there was such an expectation that it would be firmly entrenched in the Manual of Drill and Ceremonial.


----------



## medaid

I saluted Smokey... Out of respect for him.


----------



## kratz

I never had the privilege of meeting Smokey, but I would have saluted him out of respect as well. He was a legend who lived life without accepting people's garbage.


----------



## Michael OLeary

MedTech said:
			
		

> I saluted Smokey... Out of respect for him.



Which is not the same thing as saluting because you are required to.  The original poster was seeking factual guidance on when he is expected to pay compliments. 

I met Smokey too, and chatted with him on the occasion of a VC commemorative conducted by the Nova Scotia Tattoo a few years ago, and there was no appearance on his part that he expected all and sundry to salute him.


----------



## Blackadder1916

I also met Smokey once - in Normandy during the 50th anniversary of D-Day.  I don't think he stood on ceremony too much, though he didn't mind it.  He may have (mischieviously) jacked up naive junior officers on occasion; he seemed the sort.  I doubt he expected salutes, he seemed to prefer a different method of recognition - being treated to free drinks.


----------



## a_majoor

> 4. Service individuals receiving a compliment shall acknowledge it.



Does not mean saying "_Thank you_" when receiving (and returning) a salute. This is the number one pet peeve of mine, since the salute is an acknowledgment of the Queen's commission, not the recipient of the salute....


----------



## gcclarke

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Does not mean saying "_Thank you_" when receiving (and returning) a salute. This is the number one pet peeve of mine, since the salute is an acknowledgment of the Queen's commission, not the recipient of the salute....




Ooooh god yes, that is quite annoying. The proper bloody response is to return the salute and say either "Good Day", "Good Morning", or "Good Evening", or some variation thereof. 

As for the concept of saluting officers who are out of uniform, from what I've seen, that regulation being enforced varies from element to element. The navy pretty much ignores it completely, the sole exception being when an officer is crossing the ship's brow. The army NCO's I've worked with since coming to Ottawa have definitely made a point to do so. Of course, your milage may vary.


----------



## PPCLI Guy

I have always liked the custom of "saluting ladies of one's acquaintance".

They seem to as well  :-*


----------



## medaid

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Which is not the same thing as saluting because you are required to.  The original poster was seeking factual guidance on when he is expected to pay compliments.
> 
> I met Smokey too, and chatted with him on the occasion of a VC commemorative conducted by the Nova Scotia Tattoo a few years ago, and there was no appearance on his part that he expected all and sundry to salute him.



He didn't expect it. I just tossed that in there  since everyone else was talking about VC winners and Smokey


----------



## mariomike

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Much like the Americans and their CMH.



"Snuffy" Smith proved "You Don't have to be a Saint To Become A Hero":
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:_1mHvYdVe1gJ:www.homeofheroes.com/wings/part2/06_smith.html+snuffy+smith+maynard&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca&client=firefox-a

Regarding the V.C., King George V  wrote in 1920: "Even were a VC to be sentenced to be hanged for murder, he should be allowed to wear the VC on the scaffold".


----------



## kratz

[quote author=mariomike]Regarding the V.C., King George V  wrote in 1920: "Even were a VC to be sentenced to be hanged for murder, he should be allowed to wear the VC on the scaffold".
[/quote]

Imagine if such a thing were to have to happen today. The public would be offended and screaming to have said person stripped of the VC before the hanging.  :tsktsk:


----------



## medaid

kratz said:
			
		

> Imagine if such a thing were to have to happen today. The public would be offended and screaming to have said person stripped of the VC before the hanging.  :tsktsk:



Its a good thing that the public has no say over the presentation and awarding of the VC, and who it is awarded to, or what to do with it.


----------



## mariomike

kratz said:
			
		

> Imagine if such a thing were to have to happen today. The public would be offended and screaming to have said person stripped of the VC before the hanging.  :tsktsk:



I think know I would be happy to hand it back to them, if they would let me off the hook "for old times sake".
http://www.entertonement.com/collections/6141/Abe-Vigoda


----------



## Pelorus

Somewhat silly question, but does one generally salute a superior officer who is walking in their direction, but on the other side of the street?


----------



## Edward Campbell

boot12 said:
			
		

> Somewhat silly question, but does one generally salute a superior officer who is walking in their direction, but on the other side of the street?



It certainly was if you were within "range" of the current CLS' father, BGen EMD (Teddy) Leslie DSO, CD.


----------



## George Wallace

boot12 said:
			
		

> Somewhat silly question, but does one generally salute a superior officer who is walking in their direction, but on the other side of the street?



I remember "Joe the Buck" the Camp RSM in Aldershot enforcing the rule that if you were within 100 m of the Parade Square, you would salute all officers, even if they were 100 m on the opposite side of the Parade Square.


----------



## Loachman

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> I have always liked the custom of "saluting ladies of one's acquaintance".
> 
> They seem to as well  :-*



Quite. It seems to have been replaced by the gender-neutral "individual civilians", which sounds far too boring.

I am pretty sure that neither the PM nor MND were entitled to a salute when I was last receiving saluting lessons. I do not think that any politician should be automatically accorded a salute.


----------



## gcclarke

boot12 said:
			
		

> Somewhat silly question, but does one generally salute a superior officer who is walking in their direction, but on the other side of the street?



I have only once been on the receiving end of one of there, and I wouldn't think of offering up one. The Chief who initiated the salute also did not accompany his salute with any verbal cue, so it was pretty much sheer luck / good peripheral vision that allowed me an my compatriot to notice that we had a salute that needed returning. 

Needless to say, I believe this to be somewhat overkill, the opinion of BGen Leslie notwithstanding.


----------



## Edward Campbell

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I have only once been on the receiving end of one of there, and I wouldn't think of offering up one. The Chief who initiated the salute also did not accompany his salute with any verbal cue, so it was pretty much sheer luck / good peripheral vision that allowed me an my compatriot to notice that we had a salute that needed returning.
> 
> Needless to say, I believe this to be somewhat overkill, the opinion of BGen Leslie notwithstanding.




At one point in his career Brig Leslie, then a colonel, if memory serves, rode a bicycle. Needless to say we all kept an eye peeled for red tabs on two wheels. The neat thing was that Brig Leslie, seated on his bike, returned a salute in a manner that could hardly be beat by any Guards sergeant major: seated, quite erect, left hand on the handle bars, right hand *snapped* up to a salute and head and eyes turned to the soldier whose salute he was returning. Damned sharp!


Edit: added a bit of text


----------



## ajp

As for Saluting Smokey Smith - I doubt any professional soldier I know would not have saluted him under any circumstance, and suspect a few RSM, SSM types would have corrected the issue under any situation.  As for Officers, I don't know of any that missed the salute, required or not.  I met him on his last two visits to PEI. 

I do know that if I recognize a superior officer walking, out of uniform, that I certainly take the opportunity to salute.  I missed one recently as a BGen drove by in his civy car, but had I known I would have saluted, not that he was looking for it...but respect for his rank is certainly there.


----------



## 1911CoLt45

Do Mp's salute officers while on duty as policemen?  
Ex.  A major comes to the gate of a Cf base and is greeted by a mp check point, what is the protocol?
I am a civy, that’s more or less obvious, but what just wondering how situations like these and others play out.


Thanks again.


----------



## Dissident

Yes.


----------



## catalyst

Even if they're in trouble..............I got pulled over in the canex parking lot (in the out, whoops) and the MP got out and saluted once he realized I was a Lt.


----------



## 1feral1

1911CoLt45 said:
			
		

> Do Mp's salute officers while on duty as policemen?



My two bob.

What makes you think they would not? 

Sure, there is a time and place for the paying compliments, but generally MPs as much as other Corps within Army are held pretty much in common with the rules and regs that govern an army.

Now that being said, on my time in Iraq, I did not chuck one boxer. Like I said a time and a place. 

Regards,

OWDU


----------



## Jarnhamar

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> My two bob.
> 
> What makes you think they would not?


He's not a soldier, I'd say doesn't know either way.




> Now that being said, on my time in Iraq, I did not chuck one boxer. Like I said a time and a place.


Weird. I saluted my platoon commander EVERY chance I got in Afghanistan...


----------



## Snakedoc

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> Even if they're in trouble..............I got pulled over in the canex parking lot (in the out, whoops) and the MP got out and saluted once he realized I was a Lt.



I'm assuming you were still in your car?  Are MP's supposed to salute commissioned officers when the officer is still sitting in the car (ie. at a base checkpoint or after pulling over an officer).  In the very few ( ;D ) times I've encountered this situation, the answer has been no but I've seen it done in the US.


----------



## 1feral1

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Weird. I saluted my platoon commander EVERY chance I got in Afghanistan...



Not wierd here, its the norm. In the Australian Army when deployed in hostile environments, there is no saluting. Iraq was considereed this. Even at JTF 633 HQ at Australia Island at Victory, still no salutes. 

Its a long tradition here, going back almost 100 yrs.  In FOB Union III (Camp Al Tahweed- where we were based out of) in some of the same areas US Forces actually had signs "This is a Saluting Zone".  Australians also did not salute Coaltion officers either, which when a new contingent  of US Forces arrived, kind of put their noses out of joint.  ;D

I had noticed US Forces chucking a boxer with a slung rifle, which I thought was different.

Cheers (its 34C here today),


OWDU


----------



## armyvern

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Not wierd here, its the norm. In the Australian Army when deployed in hostile environments, there is no saluting. Iraq was considereed this. Even at JTF 633 HQ at Australia Island at Victory, still no salutes.
> ...



 OWDU, it's the norm here too to not salute in hostile enviornments.  I think perhaps Flawed was simply dreaming of performing a sniper check.


----------



## CountDC

Thanks for posting that Vern - I was beginning to think old age was fogging my brain and I was just imagining the sniper checks in the field.


----------



## daftandbarmy

CountDC said:
			
		

> Thanks for posting that Vern - I was beginning to think old age was fogging my brain and I was just imagining the sniper checks in the field.



Geez... is THAT why my guys always saluted me on patrol? I guess there were no snipers around....


----------



## xena

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Geez... is THAT why my guys always saluted me on patrol? I guess there were no snipers around....


I wondered why the guys in my section did that to me too.  Of course, it really made me curious since I was only a Corporal...


----------



## KingofKeys

I don't know if this is relevant, but I really want to say it:

In the words of Richard Winters "We salute the rank, not the man"


----------



## Gandhi

I have searched the forums to the best of my ability and still cannot find any explicit answer.  I was instructed more then once so far in my training that a drill faux pas is saluting while wearing a rucksack. So, my question to the forums,  can anyone give a solid answer with official reference as to whether or not it is to be done.  The last thing I want to to is not salute a LCol when I am supposed to or look like a jerk by telling someone not to salute me while they are wearing theirs.  Thank you in advance for your replies.


----------



## Michael OLeary

There is no reference that I am aware of that precludes saluting while wearing a rucksack.  Whoever told you this is spending far too much time thinking up excuses not to pay proper respects when they should.


----------



## Haggis

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> There is no reference that I am aware of that precludes saluting while wearing a rucksack.  Whoever told you this is spending far too much time thinking up excuses not to pay proper respects when they should.



Agreed.  There is nothing in the Manual of Drill and Ceremonial that would prevent you from rendering a salute (tactical considerations aside) while wearing a rucksack.  You can never go wrong if you err on the side of caution and salute if you believe the situation calls for it.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Frig,

I used to salute officers out in the field too.  In my day we called that a sniper check.....

We also tied an onion on our belt, as that was the fasion.

More stories often used by tess

dileas

tess


----------



## Occam

I agree, there's nothing in the Dress or Drill manuals precluding marks of respect being paid while wearing a ruck of any kind.

A rule of thumb dealing with the issue is that nobody has ever been jacked up for paying marks of respect when they weren't absolutely necessary.


----------



## gcclarke

I've been berated for saluting someone before. "Subbies don't salute Subbies!" That is to say, A/SLts typically do not salute SLts and SLts don't typically salute Lt(N)s. 

Of course, this is a fine Naval tradition, and as such is not actually outlined in any manual or regulation or order. Something similar might be the case at the unit that Gandhi is it. But I'd still say keep throwing the high fives until told otherwise by someone of that rank. IE, if a Capt tells you to not do so, I'd still give one to the next Major walking by.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

gcclarke said:
			
		

> But I'd still say keep throwing the high fives until told otherwise by someone of that rank. IE, if a Capt tells you to not do so, I'd still give one to the next Major walking by.



I'd second that opinion.


----------



## Greymatters

Gandhi said:
			
		

> I was instructed more then once so far in my training that a drill faux pas is saluting while wearing a rucksack.



Never heard of that before.  Sounds like someone took a field procedure and applied it to the parade square. Granted it can at times be difficult to stand at attention and deliver a proper salute if your ruck is too heavy or your arms are full...


----------



## MARS

/off topic rant/


			
				gcclarke said:
			
		

> I've been berated for saluting someone before. "Subbies don't salute Subbies!" That is to say, A/SLts typically do not salute SLts and SLts don't typically salute Lt(N)s.
> 
> Of course, this is a fine Naval tradition, and as such is not actually outlined in any manual or regulation or order. Something similar might be the case at the unit that Gandhi is it. But I'd still say keep throwing the high fives until told otherwise by someone of that rank. IE, if a Capt tells you to not do so, I'd still give one to the next Major walking by.



That (is?) used to be an East Coast thing - and widely enough adopted.  I was once told it was because the East Coast was the "operational" coast while the west coast was the "training coast".  Garbage.  I used to happily jack up any subbie that neglected to pay proper marks of respect to a superior officer.  The looks on some of their faces was memorable.  But pure and utter BS, nonetheless.  It was like a by-law or something...like the Halifax by-law that cars must stop when a pedestrian steps on to the road, even when nowhere close to a crosswalk.  Wait, what?  Yeah, try that in any other city -  like my current city of Toronto-  and see how that works out for you.

So yeah, if your right hand is free, bang off a salute for sure.

/rant ends/


----------



## Edward Campbell

MARS said:
			
		

> /off topic rant/
> That (is?) used to be an East Coast thing - and widely enough adopted.  I was once told it was because the East Coast was the "operational" coast while the west coast was the "training coast".  Garbage.  I used to happily jack up any subbie that neglected to pay proper marks of respect to a superior officer.  The looks on some of their faces was memorable.  But pure and utter BS, nonetheless.  It was like a by-law or something...like the Halifax by-law that cars must stop when a pedestrian steps on to the road, even when nowhere close to a crosswalk.  Wait, what?  Yeah, try that in any other city -  like my current city of Toronto-  and see how that works out for you.
> 
> So yeah, if your right hand is free, bang off a salute for sure.
> 
> /rant ends/




And further to that, if your right hand is not free come to attention and, if appropriate give and eyes right or left. An officer's commission does not go away just because you have a rucksack on your back or are carrying something in your hands. There are occasional _operational_/safety reasons not to salute (see the 48th regulator's comments above) but, in garrison and in general, salutes are obligatory.


----------



## Occam

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> And further to that, if your right hand is not free come to attention and, if appropriate give and eyes right or left. An officer's commission does not go away just because you have a rucksack on your back or are carrying something in your hands. There are occasional _operational_/safety reasons not to salute (see the 48th regulator's comments above) but, in garrison and in general, salutes are obligatory.



And further to that, a personal pet peeve of mine - if a subordinate with both hands occupied (such as with a carried jacket and a gym bag) approaches you , and they crank you off a smart eyes right/left, the proper response is not a nod of the head, it's a hand salute!


----------



## Edward Campbell

Occam said:
			
		

> And further to that, a personal pet peeve of mine - if a subordinate with both hands occupied (such as with a carried jacket and a gym bag) approaches you , and they crank you off a smart eyes right/left, the proper response is not a nod of the head, it's a hand salute!




Very true and correct; rendering smart, correct compliments and returning them in a equally smart and correct manner is a *duty* for all ranks.


----------



## PMedMoe

Well, I almost didn't salute a Major today, seeing how his building pass (which is not supposed to be worn exposed outside of buildings) was hanging right over his rank slip on.   :  My keen eyes caught it at the last minute.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I wish that my life was so simple that I had nothing better to worry about ;D


----------



## the 48th regulator

recceguy said:
			
		

> I wish that my life was so simple that I had nothing better to worry about ;D





 :dileas:

dileas

tess


----------



## Bzzliteyr

So, what's everyone's opinion on the 'Thanks" some officers offer when they receive your salute?  As if it were directed to them and not the rank?


----------



## rifleman

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> So, what's everyone's opinion on the 'Thanks" some officers offer when they receive your salute?  As if it were directed to them and not the rank?



Does he have a rucksack on?


----------



## MARS

rifleman said:
			
		

> Does he have a rucksack on?



 :rofl:


----------



## medicineman

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> So, what's everyone's opinion on the 'Thanks" some officers offer when they receive your salute?  As if it were directed to them and not the rank?



Nothing wrong with good manners on Her Majesty's behalf...would you rather they told you to F^&k your hat?

MM


----------



## Nuggs

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> So, what's everyone's opinion on the 'Thanks" some officers offer when they receive your salute?  As if it were directed to them and not the rank?



Personally its always bothered me. IE:

"Good day Sir"
"Thanks"

I was always told that it was incorrect, as the salute was a mark of respect to the commission not necessarily the individual. But at the same time I believe that's one of those customary ettiquette bits rather than a rule.

I have witnessed a Chief jacking A/Slts for doing it.


----------



## 1feral1

Come to think of it, after going on with 35 yrs of military service in two armies, in both peace and war, I have (to the best of my knowledge) never "chucked a boxer" (slang for paying a compliment - shy of a "G'Day Sir" or "How 'ya goin' Sir", which in 99.999% of  cases is recieved as a compliment and treated as such - afterall, there is more than one way to skin a cat) to any officer whilst rucked up, nor have I ever seen such a thing done.

With a ruck on, one is either in PT gear, or trousers w/unit PT shirt and joggers (slang for runners) and no hat etc, or kitted up along w/patrol order and skid lid (Rabintex kevlar), fully loaded up with a weapon and etc, all in a tactical environment or about to be.

Common-sense prevails. On that, methinks this tread has truly ran its course.

OWDU


----------



## Gandhi

Thank you all.  I'm sure someone in Ottawa will catch this and right 40 pages of rules now about it.  It just seems odd to me that with how detailed everything in the military is, there is not some place in the manuel that flat out explains when not to do drill or compliments.  I guess that's why RSMs have so much fun.


----------



## Haggis

Gandhi said:
			
		

> Thank you all.  I'm sure someone in Ottawa will catch this and right 40 pages of rules now about it.  It just seems odd to me that with how detailed everything in the military is, there is not some place in the manuel that flat out explains when not to do drill or compliments.  I guess that's why RSMs have so much fun.



For the record, I am in Ottawa and I am an RSM.  So, your fears have already come true.  Now, ruck up and go do some drill!


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Occam said:
			
		

> And further to that, a personal pet peeve of mine - if a subordinate with both hands occupied (such as with a carried jacket and a gym bag) approaches you , and they crank you off a smart eyes right/left, the proper response is not a nod of the head, it's a hand salute!



Unless, its an air force base where the proper response is, "Hi, Bob. Good workout?"


----------



## rifleman

Gandhi said:
			
		

> Thank you all.  I'm sure someone in Ottawa will catch this and right 40 pages of rules now about it.  It just seems odd to me that with how detailed everything in the military is, there is not some place in the manuel that flat out explains when not to do drill or compliments.  I guess that's why RSMs have so much fun.



There is already direction in the Drill and Ceremonial manual.


----------



## Neill McKay

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> So, what's everyone's opinion on the 'Thanks" some officers offer when they receive your salute?



I don't like it and never do it.  If I'm saluted when unable to return it (e.g. because of being without headdress in my office or carrying things in both hands) I respond with what I hope is a reasonably cheerful "Good morning PO" (or similar according to the rank of the individual and the time of day).



> As if it were directed to them and not the rank?



Often said but never convincingly.  You will find references to saluting officers, but none to saluting a rank.


----------



## dapaterson

I will on occasion say "Thank you", but only as an opening before asking about them, their family, their recent course, their plans for the near term... in short, when possible, it's an opening to a conversation (though some do get twitchy, and I try not to keep them too late).

Of course, I also have memories of a certain Cpl I used to be looking around, seeing a gaggle of officers solving all the world's problems, then somehow having business on the other side of them, walking past with an eyes right or left, a 6" up, 12" down foot stop, a salute with a loud "SIR!" called out - and said gaggle seeing their papers go flying and eyes go wide.


----------



## brihard

Heh. My personal favourite was the day I was crossing the bridge outside NDHQ. Someone with an artillery capbadge was coming my way, but I had the sun right in my eyes and for the life of me could not see what was on his slip on (combats). With my sunglasses on he couldn't see my fixed stare and desperate attempt to read the rank. I got to within about three feet of him and saw him pause slightly in his step, begin to turn ,and open his mouth to give me a (deserved) LGen Leslie Blast'O'Shit. I was able to see his rank at the last second, and fired up the five just in time to save my hide, with an apology for not being able to see it.

Had I been smart I would have simply noticed the cloth cap badge. Good lesson in attention to detail.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Ah yes.. the cloth cap badge.  Not always a good indicator.  I have gotten salutes on numerous occasions due to my unit having one.  And I think the Jimmy's have em too now?  Along with all the shiny thread?


----------



## MikeL

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> And I think the Jimmy's have em too now?  Along with all the shiny thread?



Sigs have had clothe capbadges for awhile. Sigs NCM capbadge is all clothe, the officer Sigs capbadge is clothe except that the Jimmy and lightning bolts are metal.. pretty much looks like a collar dog was attached to the capbadge.


----------



## REDinstaller

For the Gunners it is an excellent indication of Rank, only Officers wear a cloth cap badge, all other ranks wear a Metal cap badge.


----------



## Snakedoc

I always find the cadpat slip-ons impossible to read until the last second.  Much easier to spot the ranks when they're gold on black for most pers on a naval base  :nod:


----------



## Journeyman

Hey, I'm still coming to terms with why anyone would salute a Jimmy





			
				Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> .....And I think the Jimmy's have em too now?


----------



## VIChris

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> I always find the cadpat slip-ons impossible to read until the last second.  Much easier to spot the ranks when they're gold on black for most pers on a naval base  :nod:



This seems appropriate:
http://terminallance.com/?p=277


----------



## exgunnertdo

Tango18A said:
			
		

> For the Gunners it is an excellent indication of Rank, only Officers wear a cloth cap badge, all other ranks wear a Metal cap badge.



I've been in Ottawa a while, and haven't seen an Arty CWO in nearly 5 years...but I believe Arty CWOs still wear a cloth hat badge?

They did when I left the guns in 2005.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Don't they wear the forage cap or is that only for the master gunners?


----------



## Old Sweat

Assistant Instructors in Gunnery wear a forage cap with a red band and a white cap cover when employed in the artillery school. The latest course graduated last Friday morning; part of the ceremony was the presentation of caps as above.

Hijack ends.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Crockett said:
			
		

> Personally its always bothered me. IE:
> 
> "Good day Sir"
> "Thanks"
> 
> I was always told that it was incorrect, as the salute was a mark of respect to the commission not necessarily the individual. But at the same time I believe that's one of those customary ettiquette bits rather than a rule.
> 
> I have witnessed a Chief jacking A/Slts for doing it.



You have to keep the "salute" and the "greeting" separate when dealing with them.

The Salute is a mark of respect for the commission (hence the Queen). It requires no "form of word, prayer or incantation" of any kind by either the saluter or the saluted: Thus you can and should just do it in silence.

If the saluter decides to address the officer she is saluting with a greeting, such as "Good morning M'am", then that is addressed to the individual - not the commission - and the proper and polite thing to do for the officer is to return the greeting " Good morning Master Seaman".

Nothing wrong with a salute and a greeting being given simultaneously though!

We just have to keep in mind that one is military etiquette while the other one is simple courtesy.

Those in the Navy know of our tradition that the first salute given the Captain on the bridge in the morning is given in silence so the Captain, at her own discretion, can decide to return it equally in silence, or accompany it with a greeting (which you may then return), or engage in conversation, or chew your head off, according to his mood, which has not yet been ascertained until then.


----------



## gcclarke

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Those in the Navy know of our tradition that the first salute given the Captain on the bridge in the morning is given in silence so the Captain, at her own discretion, can decide to return it equally in silence, or accompany it with a greeting (which you may then return), or engage in conversation, or chew your head off, according to his mood, which depends on how often silly Officers-of-the-Watch woke him up in the middle of the night for silly little things.



Fixed that for you.


----------



## Bonko

Another quick hijack here,

I was taught that if an officer has neither head dress on or has his arms full it is acceptable to smartly snap your hands to the side and pay compliments that way. I was told by one of my buddies that you still salute no matter what. What's the correct procedure for that? Just want to fix something before someone of higher rank makes it known in more vocal words. Thanks.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

If you have headdress on then salute, no headdress then check arms................ doesn't matter if the officer has headdress on or has his/her arms full....


----------



## Bonko

Excellent, thanks for the clarification.


----------



## Neill McKay

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> If you have headdress on then salute, no headdress then check arms.



Checking arms as a means of paying compliments is not mentioned in the drill manual.  This might apply:

"15. When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention. If on the march, arms shall be swung and the head turned to the left or right as required."

Or this:

"18.	When dressed in civilian clothes, all members shall stand at attention and male members (less Sikhs) shall remove headdress, on any occasion when a salute would be correct in uniform and extreme winter weather conditions allow. On the march, the headdress is raised or removed, if applicable, and the head turned right or left. When headdress is not worn, it is correct to turn the head as required and offer a polite greeting."


----------



## hantzu

So I'm pretty new to the Forces. Enrolled a month ago, and haven't started BMQ yet. Learning the ins and outs of how things work at a good pace at my unit every week, but I have a few questions.

Since I haven't been trained almost at all, I've been asking my fellow soldiers in my section/platoon about various things yet keep coming up with more questions. 

1. I can identify between Commissioned and Non-Commissioned officers, but how should I address a NCO in the event I can't identify their rank? 

2. How do you address an Officer-Cadet? Male or Female.

3. If I ever encounter military superiors that know me, in my civilian life (I meet lots of Forces personnel regularly), how do I address them to be polite and keep things as business-like as possible?

Thanks for the help.


----------



## lethalLemon

hantzu said:
			
		

> So I'm pretty new to the Forces. Enrolled a month ago, and haven't started BMQ yet. Learning the ins and outs of how things work at a good pace at my unit every week, but I have a few questions.
> 
> Since I haven't been trained almost at all, I've been asking my fellow soldiers in my section/platoon about various things yet keep coming up with more questions.
> 
> 1. I can identify between Commissioned and Non-Commissioned officers, but how should I address a NCO in the event I can't identify their rank?
> 
> 2. How do you address an Officer-Cadet? Male or Female.
> 
> 3. If I ever encounter military superiors that know me, in my civilian life (I meet lots of Forces personnel regularly), how do I address them to be polite and keep things as business-like as possible?
> 
> Thanks for the help.



1. Commissioned Officers wear bars (straight and flat across the shoulder slip-ons/chest slip-on and sleeve of DEU jacket). Non-Commissioned Members wear chevrons (like exaggerated "Vs") and crowns, crowns with maple wreath, and the Coat of Arms of Canada. Best bet is to just read up on the ranks and how to address them (Master Warrant Officers - Crown with Maple Wreath are addressed as sir/ma'am as well as Chief Warrant Officers who wear the Coat of Arms).

2. Officer Cadets, are addressed as sir/ma'am

3. If you're working or in the place of work/business, you address them appropriate as any work day. Outside of that time, I personally still address the officers as sir/ma'am unless they say otherwise (but even then I'm reluctant). As for NCMs... same deal really.


----------



## CEEBEE501

2. Mr/Miss also works depending on the individual

Also I thought we where not suppose to be addressed as Sir/Ma'am as we dont have a commission.


----------



## hantzu

Well now I'm confused, haha.

I was asking about the Officer Cadets, because I heard they should be addressed Mister/Miss, and not Sir/Ma'am.


----------



## lethalLemon

CEEBEE501 said:
			
		

> 2. Mr/Miss also works depending on the individual
> 
> Also I thought we where not suppose to be addressed as Sir/Ma'am as we dont have a commission.



Yes, sorry, you are correct


----------



## ballz

I've never been called "Mister," I always thought that was for superiors officers referring to a Sergeant-Major.

Generally, I get called Sir by random clerks calling or emailing me, but I always thought it was a mistake, as my superiors just call me "OCdt ________" and so did all my instructors on my courses. 

Quite frankly, call an OCdt whatever you want. We're just bags of hammers at the bottom of the food chain like yourself. I would just refer to an OCdt as "OCdt _______," or better yet, just their last name, if I were you. And if the said OCdt says anything to you about not calling him "Sir," give him a serious slap verbal slap upside the head for being a tit. No one will care, we're right at the bottom with ya.

For question #1, study this http://army.ca/info/ranks.php and if you get caught on the spot and don't know, explain and ask. Nobody's going to jack you up for being brand new, not having done BMQ, and putting in a genuine effort to learn.


----------



## Michael OLeary

ballz said:
			
		

> I've never been called "Mister," I always thought that was for superiors officers referring to a Sergeant-Major.



Calling a Regimental Sergeant Major or other CWO "Mister" is a usage best left to senior officers and the occasional Captain who's been around long enough to remember when that RSM was a Corporal or Private soldier.  Company Sergeant Majors and MWOs are not addressed as "Mister".



			
				ballz said:
			
		

> Quite frankly, call an OCdt whatever you want. We're just bags of hammers at the bottom of the food chain like yourself. I would just refer to an OCdt as "OCdt _______," or better yet, just their last name, if I were you. And if the said OCdt says anything to you about not calling him "Sir," give him a serious slap verbal slap upside the head for being a tit. No one will care, we're right at the bottom with ya.



The addressing of Officer Cadets is not a simple matter, and deprecating it as such is not appropriate.  There's a big difference between brand new OCdts on course who are still learning the basics and individuals of that rank who are a few years into their training who may actually be on the strength of units and appointed to hold positions while awaiting their return to the appropriate training establishment. Some Officer Cadets may have extensive prior service, in their current Corps or another, and do not deserve to be referred to as "bags of hammer" or to be dealing with the impression that they do not deserve to be treated civilly as members of the Canadian Forces.

As with anyone else, if you're not sure how to address someone, err of the side of caution and politeness, and ASK someone what is appropriate. Lastly, keep in mind that the opinion of the nearest and most outspoken individual is not always the most accurate advice.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

Point to note:
DO NOT call Navy CPO2s or CPO1s (MWOs and CWOs respectively) Sir. They are referred to simply as "Chief" when addressing them; no distinguishing between the two. Failure to do so may result in a little more than the proverbial 'slap upside the head'!


----------



## jollyjacktar

Further to clarify on Pat's point.  The same treatment goes for PO1 and PO2 (Warrant Officer and Sergeant respectively) as well.  They are both addressed as "PO" in the same manner as Chiefs are.  Makes things a little easier think.


----------



## Neill McKay

In all cases it's correct to refer to a member by his or her rank and last name: "I was talking to Captain Bloggins yesterday." or "Do you know where I can find Corporal Smith?".



			
				hantzu said:
			
		

> 1. I can identify between Commissioned and Non-Commissioned officers, but how should I address a NCO in the event I can't identify their rank?



The first step is to learn the rank structure (and it will be one less thing you have to do on BMQ).  Here's a good source: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/acf-apfc/Insig/army-armee-eng.asp  (I assume you're in the army, but the naval equivalents are shown on this page as well.  Air force ranks are the same as army ranks.)  If you know an NCM's rank, that's what you call him, as in "Good morning Master Corporal".  If you don't know his rank then my advice is not to call him anything unless told otherwise -- which you might be rather quickly!  (As a recruit you should anticipate being corrected frequently, and not always gently.)

I understand that Master Warrant Officers and Chief Warrant Officers are called "sir" in the army by those of lower rank.  Certain ones are addressed by their position, as in "Good afternoon RSM" if you happen to be talking to the Regimental Sergeant Major.



> 2. How do you address an Officer-Cadet? Male or Female.



Officer cadets are officers so you call them "sir" or "ma'am" just as you would any other officer.  

The difference between officer cadets and higher-ranking officers is that the latter have a commission, which is a document from the Queen that confers certain responsibilities and authority on them.  When you meet a commissioned officer (2Lt and above) you salute or, if in civilian attire and wearing a hat, tip your hat.  (That's what the book says to do, but in practice it's not universally observed -- probably at least in part because men rarely wear hats now compared with the past.)



> 3. If I ever encounter military superiors that know me, in my civilian life (I meet lots of Forces personnel regularly), how do I address them to be polite and keep things as business-like as possible?



If you work or have another similar relationship with someone who is also a higher-ranking CF member it's not necessary to keep a parade-ground level of formality when you're both off duty.  In the reserves it's understood that you may have a different working relationship on civvie street than in the Service.  But if you happen to pass an officer you recognize in the street when you're both off duty a cheeerful "Good evening sir" would probably not be out of place.


----------



## Neill McKay

ballz said:
			
		

> Quite frankly, call an OCdt whatever you want. We're just bags of hammers at the bottom of the food chain like yourself. I would just refer to an OCdt as "OCdt _______," or better yet, just their last name, if I were you. And if the said OCdt says anything to you about not calling him "Sir," give him a serious slap verbal slap upside the head for being a tit. No one will care, we're right at the bottom with ya.



This is not especially sound advice.  Despite a lot of similarities, an officer cadet is not the same thing as a private, and they do outrank privates by a significant margin.

In the unique situation in the militia of having officer cadets and privates on the same BMQ course it makes sense that the lines would be blurred somewhat and an OCdt who seeks to flex his or her authority in that situation would, I imagine, be setting himself or herself up for a very rough time.  But my advice is to leave the verbal slapping upside the head to the course staff.

I say this not having done a mixed BMQ, so perhaps someone who has taught one may have some useful advice for that situation.  I've been on one course that was mixed junior officers (Lt[N] and SLt) and NCMs (MS, PO1, and CPO2) and we quickly settled into an informal style among the candidates with first names used outside of working hours.


----------



## Snakedoc

Well the good (bad?) thing about the CF is that there is a publication for everything.  Chapter 11 in The Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces publication (the 200) details forms of address for CF members.  I've included the parts most people will probably find useful.  The table in the attached Annex A of the chapter will probably be most clear:

CHAPTER 11
MILITARY FORMS OF ADDRESS
GENERAL POLICY

1. This chapter: 
a. amplifies the National Defence Act, Section 21, and Queen's Regulations and Orders (QR&O), Article 3.01;
b. prescribes the correct forms of address for members of the Canadian Forces (CF) and establishes the standard for use by CF members, but
c. does not preclude the local use of terms or titles based on traditional establishment appointments, e.g., gunner, sergeant-major.

2. In general, CF members may be addressed by either:
a. Rank and surname; 
b. Rank; 
c. Appointment (including parade appointments);

FORMAL ADDRESS
9. In formal address, either written or spoken, the correct form of address shall be as follows:
a. Officers shall be addressed – 
(1) by officers of higher or equal rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment;
(2) on parade, or when in keeping with authorized environmental or branch usage –
(a) by officers of higher rank or higher parade appointment, by rank and surname, or by appointment; and
(b) by officers of equal rank but lower parade appointment by Sir or Ma’am as applicable; and
(3) by all other officers and noncommissioned members, by rank and surname, or by Sir or Ma’am as applicable.

b. Chief Petty Officers 1st Class and Chief Warrant Officers shall be addressed by all ranks –
(1) by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment; or
(2) for army and air force chief warrant officers –
(a) by officers and ranking peers, by Mr, Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate, followed by surname, and
(b) by lower ranks, by Sir or Ma’am as appropriate.

c. Other non-commissioned members shall be addressed – by all ranks, by rank, by rank and surname, or by appointment.

INFORMAL ADDRESS
10. Normally, short forms of address (see Annex A) are limited to informal speech and in the salutation of informal correspondence.
11. Nothing in this order prohibits the continued use of given names in a social setting within the bounds of normal etiquette and traditional military discipline.


----------



## lonnieg3

Hello,

New here to the forums, so I apologize if this has been covered before. Here is my Issue.
I've been in the Cf for almost 17 years as an NCM and Officer. I remember that as a junior that you always addressed
your MWO, CWO, Officer superiors as either Sir or Ma'am.

Over the last decade or so, I have been noticing a trend where subordinates or junior ranks have
been addressing superiors as simply , MWO, CWO, Lt or Capt in email greetings or phone calls, sometimes without even using a last name.
I have never found a solid reference for exactly how protocol should be for this.

Today, I got an email from a MCpl whom I have never met addressing me simply as my rank acronym. Am I over reacting here
or is this something that should be a tad more formal, that I should be addressing.

Thank You


----------



## ModlrMike

FWIW, I don't think you're out of line here.

I see it as evidence that the formality that most of us expect, is being allowed to slip. I'm still very much of the opinion that when you're addressing correspondence to someone you don't know, using their rank and name is the polite thing to do. If they outrank you, then sir or ma'am as the case may be is appropriate. The only time that I use someone's rank only is when my message is directive in nature. Otherwise, my tone is more collegial.


----------



## Tibbson

I've always been of the mind that in conversation you use the rank/name the first time and Sir/Ma'am after that.  At the same time though Sir/Ma'am is a good all around default.  When it comes to written comms I personally start off an email with something along the lines of "Good day Sir" but really, I don't see a problem with it starting "Good day Capt" although it's not my personal writing style.  

The majority of the emails I get start off with "Sir" however a few have a simple "MWO" instead and its never something I've ever taken offence with since both are essentially correct.


----------



## OldSolduer

MWO = Sir (or Sergeant Major if appointed) Navy MWO are CPO2 and addressed as "Chief" RCN please correct me.
CWO = Sir or RSM (If you are appointed RSM). Navy CWO = CPO 1 and addressed as "Chief" or "Cox" if so appointed. RCN again, please set me straight if I am f**ked up.

Officers are "Sir" for ALL NCMs. Junior to senior should always address as "sir".


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> Officers are "Sir" for ALL NCMs. Junior to senior should always address as "sir".



What about O/Cdts?


----------



## lonnieg3

All good input, thank you.

It's always been a big questions mark in terms of the official way to do things.
But I agree with ModlrMike in the sense that the respect is starting to slip with the newer generations and I feel most of it is due to some superiors lax attitude towards it. if I don't correct them and maintain standard who will?
Too many juniors simply walk by their seniors with a "high five, what's up" attitude and I disagree with this trend.

And Is there not a CF reference for this?


----------



## lonnieg3

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> What about O/Cdts?



There is a reference for this and what I remember it's either "Officer Cadet, or Sir/Ma'am" is acceptable.
Same thing with salutes: mbrs do not typically salute Cadets being subordinate officers, however they may salute if desired and you will return it.

Although I'm sure most have their own names for cadets they would like to use lol


----------



## lonnieg3

mariomike said:
			
		

> https://army.ca/forums/threads/71686/post-684515.html#msg684515
> Reply #3
> 
> Addressing OCdts/NCdts
> https://army.ca/forums/threads/71686/post-684476.html#msg684476
> 
> Proper protocol for Officer Cadets
> http://army.ca/forums/threads/29679.0/nowap.html



Damn you're good, and fast. Thank You


----------



## lonnieg3

mariomike said:
			
		

> My pleasure! It's an interesting subject.



I've been looking for that reference forever, you have no idea lol.


----------



## OldSolduer

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> What about O/Cdts?



In my mind its still "sir".


----------



## cupper

One of the references provided by Mariomike makes a very good point about situational circumstances when addressing OCdt. Generally in a training situation where an instructor is addressing a student, the form of address should be Mr./ Mrs., but in other circumstances one should use Sir / Ma'am.


----------



## Blackadder1916

lonnieg3 said:
			
		

> Today, I got an email from a MCpl whom I have never met addressing me simply as my rank acronym. Am I over reacting here
> or is this something that should be a tad more formal, that I should be addressing.



I preface my comments by admitting that I am long retired from the CF and thus not familiar with the CF's current usage of electronic messaging.  I'm sure that it is more widespread and less rigid in terms of who could communicate with whom than it was when I was serving. That being said, your primary examples are related to emails.  To my aging Staff School trained mind, emails are the modern version of the memorandum, or more specifically, a round-trip memo.  It is written communication, more informal than formal and traditionally would have been addressed to the "position".  I would not have had any problem with receiving from subordinates emails addressing me as "Ops O", "Adjt", "DCO" or "CO" (all positions that I've held), or even being addressed by rank alone by someone outside my unit.  In face to face conversation, however, if someone was deliberately avoiding calling me (or someone else entitled to that courtesy) "Sir", then they would be corrected, either by me immediately or by their Sgt Major after he received a call.  Why are you only wondering if this is proper?  Why haven't you corrected those who've strayed?


----------



## lonnieg3

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I preface my comments by admitting that I am long retired from the CF and thus not familiar with the CF's current usage of electronic messaging.  I'm sure that it is more widespread and less rigid in terms of who could communicate with whom than it was when I was serving. That being said, your primary examples are related to emails.  To my aging Staff School trained mind, emails are the modern version of the memorandum, or more specifically, a round-trip memo.  It is written communication, more informal than formal and traditionally would have been addressed to the "position".  I would not have had any problem with receiving from subordinates emails addressing me as "Ops O", "Adjt", "DCO" or "CO" (all positions that I've held), or even being addressed by rank alone by someone outside my unit.  In face to face conversation, however, if someone was deliberately avoiding calling me (or someone else entitled to that courtesy) "Sir", then they would be corrected, either by me immediately or by their Sgt Major after he received a call.  Why are you only wondering if this is proper?  Why haven't you corrected those who've strayed?



Good insight, and rest assured I will  helps that I have the insight and a reference now.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

A few additions.

-  As a former black beret type, we (NCMs) were educated that NCMs never should address the RSM as "RSM" but use Sir.  Officers would address the RSM or SSM as RSM/SSM.  I have also heard COs refer to the RSM as RSM or Mister Xxxxxxxx.  

-  Nowadays I call the SCWO "chief" or "sir".  Like alot of Corps, branches, and trades we have our own little terms that are acceptable within the Sqn such as Skipper, Tac, Lead, etc.  Emails inside the Sqn I refer to the crew commander as skipper but external I would use the official term for clarity.  

- OCdts did not yet hold a comission and were not saluted.  It was common to hear them addressed as OCdt Bloggins or Mr/Mrs Bloggins.

- in my current unit, if I have to email an officer, I usually start usinng their position, then first line first word is Sir/Ma'am.

eg

AFC,

Sir, this email ......


I like this format especially if there are multiple To's and CC's and makes it easy in the email to identify action and info addressee's.

Using the Memo vice letter rules for writing seems like a good rough guidance for internal/external email comms and has never backfired on me.


----------



## Old Sweat

Now my service goes back to the end of the last ice age, but as an officer cadet and later as a junior officer in the nobody wore a name tag days, it was normal to address a WO1 (CWO) as Mister and RSM was not acceptable back then. If you did not know the gentleman's name a dragging out of "Misterrrr" or a pause or change in inflection would usually elicit something like "Mister Smith, Sir."


----------



## seirra

Hoping someone will be able to help me out.  I am looking and haven't yet found the reference on how to address ranks.  It is understood that practice that you will always address by rank (IE Good day Warrent or whatever rank) but I haven't actually found something in writing the explicitly required to do so.

I guess the quickest way would be to call everyone buddy.  Eventually at my summary trial someone would mention it to me  ;D

Thanks in advance for the assistance


----------



## Pusser

The reference is: A-AD-200-000/AG-000 (THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES), Chapter 11 (Military Forms of Address)

You will note that nowhere does it say anything about addressing naval lieutenants or captains as "Lieutenant Navy Bloggins," or "Captain Navy Bloggins."  That's because those "ranks" don't exist!  It's simply "Lieutenant Bloggins,"or "Captain Bloggins."  Their uniforms should make it obvious that they are naval officers.


----------



## mariomike

seirra said:
			
		

> I am looking and haven't yet found the reference on how to address ranks.



Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/812.250
11 pages.

Proper way to address a WO, MWO, CWO or Officer  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/57227.50
3 pages.


----------



## Lumber

Pusser said:
			
		

> The reference is: A-AD-200-000/AG-000 (THE HONOURS, FLAGS AND HERITAGE STRUCTURE OF THE CANADIAN FORCES), Chapter 11 (Military Forms of Address)
> 
> You will note that nowhere does it say anything about addressing naval lieutenants or captains as "Lieutenant Navy Bloggins," or "Captain Navy Bloggins."  That's because those "ranks" don't exist!  It's simply "Lieutenant Bloggins,"or "Captain Bloggins."  Their uniforms should make it obvious that they are naval officers.



A good friend of mine was serving with Op Impact last year. They gave him an ultimatum; he could either be Capt Bloggins or Lieutenant Navy Bloggins. I told him to tell them to go F*** themselves because he earned his rank. He said he would, but that the ultimatum came from a Major (or maybe even higher; can't remember, but it was higher ranking than him).


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

To make it stop, your friend could use a little trick I've used before: Start calling the sergeants and above PO or Chief only, and then tell them you'll stop calling them that when they get your rank right.

Of course, in your friend's case, he could have started calling the "higher ups" Major Army Bloggins or Lieutenant-colonel Air Force Bloggins: after all their uniform doesn't give away the one that they are and it can't be the same rank: they are from different elements  [. I bet that would have stopped the insanity right there and then.


----------



## Lightguns

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> To make it stop, your friend could use a little trick I've used before: Start calling the sergeants and above PO or Chief only, and then tell them you'll stop calling them that when they get your rank right.
> 
> Of course, in your friend's case, he could have started calling the "higher ups" Major Army Bloggins or Lieutenant-colonel Air Force Bloggins: after all their uniform doesn't give away the one that they are and it can't be the same rank: they are from different elements  [. I bet that would have stopped the insanity right there and then.



Call Lieutenant Commander!  That will shut em up!


----------



## daftandbarmy

Lumber said:
			
		

> A good friend of mine was serving with Op Impact last year. They gave him an ultimatum; he could either be Capt Bloggins or Lieutenant Navy Bloggins. I told him to tell them to go F*** themselves because he earned his rank. He said he would, but that the ultimatum came from a Major (or maybe even higher; can't remember, but it was higher ranking than him).



How rude.

These are Army people who we normal Army people call f%cktards


----------



## Sub_Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I bet that would have stopped the insanity right there and then.



I'd take that bet.  There's something about Camp Canada that brings out the best in people.  Maybe it's the piss warm water? :dunno:


----------



## Zoomie

Navy doesn't have arid ranks - so no executive curl.  Quite easy to mistake a Lt(N) for an Air Force Captain.


----------



## ModlrMike

Ditch said:
			
		

> Navy doesn't have arid ranks - so no executive curl.  Quite easy to mistake a Lt(N) for an Air Force Captain.



Depends on how resourceful you are. For the sake of watching someone's head spin, I'd spend the $30.

http://cpgear.com/create_products/CF-Navy-Slip-ons?n=41312542


----------



## dimsum

Ditch said:
			
		

> Navy doesn't have arid ranks - so no executive curl.



Of all the random buttons and bows things to overlook, the Navy really dropped the ball on that one.  It would have actually done something.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Ditch said:
			
		

> Navy doesn't have arid ranks - so no executive curl.  Quite easy to mistake a Lt(N) for an Air Force Captain.



They do now, at least some do.  I've seen 2 x LCdr with them in brown jammies.   Maybe they got them made "up the hill" at the shop next to the phone dude.

Hope you're treating your liver well!    :subbies:


----------



## Lightguns

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> How rude.
> 
> These are Army people who we normal Army people call f%cktards



Where are these "normal" army people of which you speak?


----------



## George Wallace

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Where are these "normal" army people of which you speak?



Can you define "normal"?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> They do now, at least some do.  I've seen 2 x LCdr with them in brown jammies.   Maybe they got them made "up the hill" at the shop next to the phone dude.
> 
> Hope you're treating your liver well!    :subbies:



Jack wears this rank in all forms of 'combat' dress', including when serving with RM Cdo units.


----------



## Furniture

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> To make it stop, your friend could use a little trick I've used before: Start calling the sergeants and above PO or Chief only, and then tell them you'll stop calling them that when they get your rank right.



I ended up doing the opposite back when I first got the ships. My boss kept calling me "Sarge", so I started calling them "LT". Got the point across rather quickly.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Jack wears this rank in all forms of 'combat' dress', including when serving with RM Cdo units.



I didn't want to say anything because I've been out for awhile (before arid existed) and when I looked it up in the current dress regulations, I did not find it anymore, but it certainly used to be the case here too. When (very, very rare occasions) we were issued army combats, we always wore our "Navy" slip-ons - black with gold thread - on them.

But in the present case, even with the general purpose subdued slip-ons, it should be easy to figure the person is from the Navy: We are dealing with an officer. He is wearing standard subdued slip-ons showing bars. They are not pale blue so he is not Air Force, neither do they show pips and crowns so he is not Army. That sorts of limit the choices left over, doesn't it  [.


----------



## jollyjacktar

And if the viewer is still confused about which of the three elements the wearer belongs with, they can have a gander at the nametape and look for the anchor, eagle or swords.  It's not Rocket Science.

At least I would hope they (viewer) would have an IQ above room temperature readings, especially if an Officer and could suss it out.


----------



## George Wallace

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> And if the viewer is still confused about which of the three elements the wearer belongs with, they can have a gander at the nametape and look for the anchor, eagle or swords.  It's not Rocket Science.
> 
> At least I would hope they (viewer) would have an IQ above room temperature readings, especially if an Officer and could suss it out.



It all depends.  Capt Obvious is not always around to correct.


----------



## The Bread Guy

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> At least I would hope they (viewer) would have an IQ above room temperature readings, especially if an Officer and could suss it out.


Fahrenheit or Celsius?   >


----------



## George Wallace

Some of this is just  :rofl:

OK.....Then you have this:



			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> CDS drops by (via UKR MoD info-machine)...
> 
> 
> 
> Chief of Defence Staff of Canada Colonel General Jonathan Vance arrived to Ukraine ......
Click to expand...



 [


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

George: Colonel-General is the actual UKR Army rank for an officer just above Lieutenant-General, but below General of Army (which in most countries would be called a Field-Marshall). So, it certainly conveys Vance's status properly.


----------



## dimsum

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> But in the present case, even with the general purpose subdued slip-ons, it should be easy to figure the person is from the Navy: We are dealing with an officer. He is wearing standard subdued slip-ons showing bars. They are not pale blue so he is not Air Force, neither do they show pips and crowns so he is not Army. That sorts of limit the choices left over, doesn't it  [.



That works in the green CADPAT since the bars are blue (on olive drab background) for the RCAF, black (with Exec Curl) on olive drab for the RCN, and Pips/Crowns on CADPAT for the CA.  On Arid, the bars for RCAF and RCN are exactly the same - tan on CADPAT arid.

But yes, you can look to see if that person has an anchor or an eagle on their nametape.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Honest question is it rude to address a left-tenant as LT?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I don't know if it is rude or not, it is just not done. 24 years in the Navy, I just have never heard a two ringer addressed as anything else than lieutenant. Just like I've never heard "light" used for addressing a Lieutenant-commander.

I think those are Army ways of addressing people, and American Army at that. 

Actually, Jarnhamar, there is another aspect here: In the Navy, we tend to refer to officers by their job. So it is not very common to address a lieutenant by his/her rank since at that level, they all have defined "jobs".

You are more likely to hear "Get this to the Navo/deckO/ORO/LogO", etc. rather than "get this to Lieutenant Bloggins".


----------



## George Wallace

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> George: Colonel-General is the actual UKR Army rank for an officer just above Lieutenant-General, but below General of Army (which in most countries would be called a Field-Marshall). So, it certainly conveys Vance's status properly.



I assumed that it was a UKR publication, using their terminology; but can still be applied to this whole discussion.  Different nations will see a rank and associate it to what they "know" and use that/their term.  Much the same can be said when referring to the different Services within that nation.  This whole kerfuffle is great for descussion over beers, but not as serious as some make it out to be.


----------



## Journeyman

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Honest question is it rude to address a left-tenant as LT?


If the Lt is offended and doesn't speak up, there are other leadership issues to worry about.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Honest question is it rude to address a left-tenant as LT?



It depends on the subaltern (or the lieutenant if he is in the navy - it's irrelevant in the air force due to their casual nature  [).  The required form of address would be "Sir", if you are talking to him directly ("Ma'am" if a she) and you are of a lower rank.  However, what is the personal relationship?  What does he/she permit or expect?  I've been called a lot of things by subordinates and happily acknowledged the spirit by which they so addressed me (I am also sure that some of the things I've been called behind my back were less than flattering and not meant to portray respect or affection).

edited to add

My favourite anecdote about an OR making rude and obscene comments to an officer comes from David Niven in his autobiography "The Moon's a Balloon".  He relates meeting an RSM shortly after he rejoined the army.



> Volunteers of all ranks came from every conceivable outfit and were a tough adventurous group prepared for any hardship. Mixed with us, for a while, were the semi-mutinous remains of the independent companies, defeated in Norway and now awaiting either absorption into the Commandos or disbandment. The Regimental Sergeant Major of this rugged conglomeration was a huge man, brought by Brian Mayfield and Bill Stirling from their parent regiment, the Scots Guards. The first morning I was at Lochailort, this splendid creature passed me, ramrod straight and moustache bristling. He let fly a tremendous salute which I acknowledged. He replied to this with an unmistakable and very loud Bronx cheer or common raspberry.
> 
> I spun round as if shot and shouted after him,
> ‘Sergeant Major!’
> 
> ‘SAH!’
> 
> ‘Come back here!’
> 
> ‘SAH!’
> 
> He came back, halted and snapped off another salute.
> 
> ‘Did you make that rude noise?’
> 
> ‘YESSIR!’
> 
> ‘Why, may I ask?’
> 
> ‘Because you look such a c*nt in a Rifle Brigade hat – SAH!’
> 
> Only then did I catch on – it was John Royal of Green Beer fame!
> 
> While I gaped at him he said,
> ‘I heard you were coming … I have a room in a crofter’s cottage, name of Lachlan, just behind the kirk in the village – see you there this evening … SAH!’
> 
> Another Scots Guards salute and he was gone.
> 
> John’s cottage was a godsend. Every evening, I repaired there and tried to forget my aching, bruised body and my ‘fleabag bed’ on the hard wooden floor of a loft, shared with forty or fifty others.
> 
> John, after his problems in India, had found it impossible to obtain a commission so he had joined the Scots Guards as a guardsman and within a few months had risen to his present dizzy height. Later he became a parachutist and at last got back his commission as a glider pilot. He was killed at Arnhem.


----------



## Pusser

No w I want to know more about "John Royal of Green Beer fame?"


----------



## jollyjacktar

Pusser said:
			
		

> No w I want to know more about "John Royal of Green Beer fame?"



Read the book.  Niven's time at Sandhurst and the Regiment afterwards is delightfully funny.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Pusser said:
			
		

> No w I want to know more about "John Royal of Green Beer fame?"



Though Niven misspells his name in his book (it is actually Royle), the "green beer" story is from when both served together as subalterns in the Highland Light Infantry.  An inkling of (later) Major Royle's activities during the war can be found here http://www.pegasusarchive.org/normandy/john_royle.htm .


----------



## Rifleman62

Great book which I read years ago. Will have to find it again. Another funny anecdote was Mess Dinner in Malta in the 30's. The dinners, old rules, were held late at night due to the heat and would last for hours. The subalterns would pass wine (empty) bottles around to relieve themselves under the table.

Spike Milligan, Irish comic anecdote along the same lines.  Sleeping in tents one of the gun crew got an cycle inter tube to wrap around so he did not have to get up in the night to piss. Spike tied a knot in it with the resulting hilarity . 



> During the Second World War, Milligan served as a signaller in the 56th Heavy Regiment Royal Artillery, D Battery (later 19 Battery), as Gunner Milligan, 954024. The unit was equipped with the obsolete First World War era BL 9.2-inch howitzer and based in Bexhill on the south coast of England. Milligan describes training with these guns in part two of Adolf Hitler: My Part in His Downfall, claiming that, during training, gun crews resorted to shouting "bang" in unison as they had no shells with which to practise.



Good books.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Figured this would be the best place to post this.

I need to know if I am missing something here.  Currently in a training establishment and we have been instructed to call room when the instructors enter the room.  Which is isn’t a big deal, however, my issue is that I have a classmate who is the same rank as the instructors at the school.  Maybe I’m missing something, but I always associated calling a room to attention with saluting (same rank = no salute).


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Actually, I've always associated calling "room" with a sign of deference to authority, so to speak.

In the Navy, we call room for the entrance of the XO or the CO (for example) , yet, in many instances, these people are of lower rank that some other officers in the room. Similarly, we call it for instructors at HMCS VENTURE even if some students (particularly in command courses) may be senior officers to such instructors, but just not specialists in the instructor's field.

Just saying that  I never really associated such action with a "salute".


----------



## Sub_Guy

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for!  I guess the comparison to saluting was a bad example.  I had always associated it with someone of a higher rank (or executive position) entering the room.


----------



## Journeyman

Irrelevant tangent....



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> In the Navy, we call room for the entrance of the XO or the CO (for example)…


Once upon a time while on course at FDU(P), several of us were watching TV in the shacks during the weekend when three Navy uniformed people walked in;  the MS announced "Rounds."

Of course, the lot of us responded with "Rounds? Great, I'll have a beer.... rum & coke over here....etc"

The A/SLt and the MS looked flustered, the grizzled PO ushered them out, and turned on us, "you're not Navy are you?"  After explaining that we were definitely not sailors, but just in town for the dive course, he nodded, explained 'rounds' and said, "no worries, I'll keep the duty officer away."


 [   war story ends


----------



## ChicknBone

When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
Thank you


----------



## OceanBonfire

ChicknBone said:
			
		

> When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
> Thank you



The former is the correct protocol.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> The former is the correct protocol.



The CAF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial, Chapter 2, Saluting At The Halt Without Arms is the 'correct protocol', actually.

37.  On the command TO THE FRONT SALUTE BY NUMBERS, SQUAD – ONE, squad members shall: 
a.bend the right elbow and open the palm of the right hand as it passes the shoulder; and

b.force the right hand by its shortest route to the front of the headdress (Figure 2-8) so that: 
1.the palm of the hand is facing down, 
2.the thumb and fingers are fully extended and close together,
3.the tip of the second finger is in line with the outside of the right eyebrow and touching the outside edge of the headdress or arm of glasses, if worn,
4.the hand, wrist and forearm are in a straight line and at a 45 degree angle to the upper arm,
5.the elbow is in line with the shoulders, and
6.the upper arm is parallel to the ground.

38.  On the command SQUAD – TWO, the hand is brought sharply to the position of attention by the shortest route, without slapping the thigh. The hand is closed after the forearm is lowered below shoulder level.

39.  On the command TO THE FRONT – SALUTE, the two movements are combined. *The standard pause shall be observed between movements.*

40.On the command TO THE RIGHT (LEFT) SALUTE BY NUMBERS, SQUAD – ONE, saluting shall be executed as detailed in paragraph 37, except that: 

a.the head and eyes shall be turned smartly to the right (left) as far as possible without straining;
b.when saluting to the left, the right hand, wrist and arm are brought further over to the left to the correct position in line with the outside edge of the right eyebrow; and
c.when saluting to the right, the arm is moved to the rear, with the tip of the second finger remaining in line with the outside edge of the right eyebrow.

41.On the command SQUAD – TWO, the hand is brought sharply to the position of attention, and simultaneously the head and eyes are turned smartly to the front.

42.On the command TO THE RIGHT (LEFT) – SALUTE, the two movements are combined. The standard pause shall be observed between movements.

From Ch 1:

TERMINOLOGY
7.In this manual, “shall”, “will”, “is” and “are” are to be construed as imperative

STANDARD PAUSE
45.The standard pause between each drill movement is two beats of quick time.

43.When wearing headdress other than a cap with a peak, the second finger is 2 cm above and in line with the outer tip of the right eyebrow.

Chickenbone, you're not actually holding your salute up 'to your brow'...just for clarity/accuracy.


----------



## OceanBonfire

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The CAF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial, Chapter 2, Saluting At The Halt Without Arms is the 'correct protocol', actually.
> 
> 37.  On the command TO THE FRONT SALUTE BY NUMBERS, SQUAD – ONE, squad members shall:
> a.bend the right elbow and open the palm of the right hand as it passes the shoulder; and
> 
> b.force the right hand by its shortest route to the front of the headdress (Figure 2-8) so that:
> 1.the palm of the hand is facing down,
> 2.the thumb and fingers are fully extended and close together,
> 3.the tip of the second finger is in line with the outside of the right eyebrow and touching the outside edge of the headdress or arm of glasses, if worn,
> 4.the hand, wrist and forearm are in a straight line and at a 45 degree angle to the upper arm,
> 5.the elbow is in line with the shoulders, and
> 6.the upper arm is parallel to the ground.
> 
> 38.  On the command SQUAD – TWO, the hand is brought sharply to the position of attention by the shortest route, without slapping the thigh. The hand is closed after the forearm is lowered below shoulder level.
> 
> 39.  On the command TO THE FRONT – SALUTE, the two movements are combined. *The standard pause shall be observed between movements.*
> 
> 40.On the command TO THE RIGHT (LEFT) SALUTE BY NUMBERS, SQUAD – ONE, saluting shall be executed as detailed in paragraph 37, except that:
> 
> a.the head and eyes shall be turned smartly to the right (left) as far as possible without straining;
> b.when saluting to the left, the right hand, wrist and arm are brought further over to the left to the correct position in line with the outside edge of the right eyebrow; and
> c.when saluting to the right, the arm is moved to the rear, with the tip of the second finger remaining in line with the outside edge of the right eyebrow.
> 
> 41.On the command SQUAD – TWO, the hand is brought sharply to the position of attention, and simultaneously the head and eyes are turned smartly to the front.
> 
> 42.On the command TO THE RIGHT (LEFT) – SALUTE, the two movements are combined. The standard pause shall be observed between movements.
> 
> From Ch 1:
> 
> TERMINOLOGY
> 7.In this manual, “shall”, “will”, “is” and “are” are to be construed as imperative
> 
> STANDARD PAUSE
> 45.The standard pause between each drill movement is two beats of quick time.
> 
> 43.When wearing headdress other than a cap with a peak, the second finger is 2 cm above and in line with the outer tip of the right eyebrow.
> 
> ...



Those are for drill. Saluting a superior passing by would be saluting first and then drop the salute after the superior has drop his/her salute. I've had members lock to attention and salute me as I pass by which I find it's overkill.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> Those are for drill.



 :facepalm:  

No there, sunshine...that is how we, in the CAF, salute...at the halt...without arms (as in _without weapons_ ).  It is a DRILL MOVEMENT.  And why did I select that particular part of CFP 201?  Because of this little thing called 'attention to detail'.



			
				ChicknBone said:
			
		

> When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
> Thank you



The yellow part suggests they are 'at the halt' vice "walking/marching" to me.



> Saluting a superior passing by would be saluting first and then drop the salute after the superior has drop his/her salute.



Well, luckily for you, the CAF thought of a scenario like this many years ago and also came up with a drill movement for it!    

CFP 201, Chap 3, SALUTE ON THE MARCH WITHOUT ARMS

80.When a service member salutes on the march, he shall commence the drill movement five paces before reaching an officer, look directly into the officer’s eyes by turning his head in the required direction on the commencement of the salute, and complete the salute one pace beyond him. This permits the officer to return the salute before the member has passed (Figure 3-12).

You can read and practice the rest for your own professional development.



> I've had members lock to attention and salute me as I pass by which I find it's overkill.



Unfortunately, Basic Training for both NCMs and Officers isn't what it once was, as you're demonstrating in this thread.  CFLRS has cut out a sizeable portion of drill and ceremonial knowledge from what was done in yester-years.

- if the "member" is stationary as you approach, that is basically what they're supposed to do if they are an NCM or you're a higher ranking Commissioned Officer. 
- if they are walking...they should be following the part from Chap 3 above.

Either way, saluting is a drill movement and should be done IAW CFP 201 _and_  the application of some common sense.  If I'm in the parking lot and I see a few Officers in 'saluting range' and they're talking, I usually give them a 'good morning! etc' to get their attention before I give them the high-5.  As I am approaching them, I am 'walking' not 'marching' as I would be on a parade, but that's about the only real difference.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

ChicknBone said:
			
		

> When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
> Thank you



Chicknbone...so the answer doesn't get lost on you here.  As you were likely (hopefully) taught during Basic, you hold the standard pause of "2, 3" between the "up" (Squad 1) and "cut" (squad 2) part of the movement.  You salute, the Superior Officer returns the salute, you return to the position of attention, the Superior Officer cuts their salute.  There is no need to observe anything other than the standard pause (2,3) or anything.

Reading your question, I was envisioning a situation where you are on a parade, and march up in front of the Officer to receive something;  in that case, they will be expecting the salute.  In a situation like you are standing outside the CANEX or something and you see an Officer approaching, you can always offer a verbal "good morning sir/ma'am" to them to attract their attention and begin your salute as they make eye contact.

If ever in doubt, just refer to CFP 201 (Manual of Drill & Ceremonial).


----------



## OceanBonfire

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Chicknbone...so the answer doesn't get lost on you here.  As you were likely (hopefully) taught during Basic, you hold the standard pause of "2, 3" between the "up" (Squad 1) and "cut" (squad 2) part of the movement.  You salute, the Superior Officer returns the salute, you return to the position of attention, the Superior Officer cuts their salute.  There is no need to observe anything other than the standard pause (2,3) or anything.
> 
> Reading your question, I was envisioning a situation where you are on a parade, and march up in front of the Officer to receive something;  in that case, they will be expecting the salute.  In a situation like you are standing outside the CANEX or something and you see an Officer approaching, you can always offer a verbal "good morning sir/ma'am" to them to attract their attention and begin your salute as they make eye contact.
> 
> If ever in doubt, just refer to CFP 201 (Manual of Drill & Ceremonial).



The way I read the question is s/he isn't on parade. S/he will have to clarify that. However, you're going hard here like a salty senior NCO. I understand that it is a drill movement but I understand his/her question from the point of view as him/her not "drilling" around.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> The way I read the question is s/he isn't on parade. S/he will have to clarify that.



I'll say this as plainly as possible so you can hopefully understand it.

Even if you are not on parade, saluting (i.e. - paying a compliment) is a drill movement.  It doesn't matter if it is done on a parade square, or not. 

I'll back up a little bit to an earlier part of the Manual (201).  

CFP 201, Chap 1, Section 2 - Compliments.

*SECTION 2 COMPLIMENTS*

GENERAL

1.  Compliments are formal marks of respect and courtesy, i.e., salutes.

2.  The military salute is a traditional demonstration of trust and respect. Although the method of saluting varies with circumstances, the paying of compliments is a fundamental requirement that is indispensable to service discipline.

3.  In Canada, military compliments are only paid to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence; lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers. Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to 23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 et 41.

4.  Service individuals receiving a compliment shall acknowledge it.

5.  _Detailed instructions on the techniques of paying individual compliments _are found elsewhere in this publication as follows:

a.  at the halt – Chapter 2;
b.  on the march – Chapter 3;

(these are the parts of CFP 201 I was referencing earlier)

INDIVIDUAL

9.Officers shall salute all officers of higher rank and shall return all compliments paid them. Senior officers receiving compliments from marching troops on a ceremonial parade shall hold the salute as each individual component passes directly by in review.

10.Non-commissioned members shall salute all commissioned officers.

11.  Officers and non-commissioned members not part of a formed military group shall all pay individual compliments to an approaching higher ranking officer (see also paragraph 12). The senior officer receiving the salute shall return the compliment, while military persons accompanying that officer give an eyes right/left in the same manner as saluting without headdress (paragraph 15) during the exchange of compliments or greetings.

12.When an officer approaches a group of non-commissioned members, the senior of the group or the person who recognizes the officer first shall take command and call the group to attention: (GROUP, ATTEN-TION) the senior or person in charge shall then alone salute. Junior members shall draw their senior’s attention to approaching officers if the circumstances require and allow.

13.Individual compliments to a formed military group on the march and under the command of an officer shall be paid by halting, turning to face the group and saluting. The salute should be maintained until the entire group has passed.

14.While bearing arms, individuals shall pay compliments to officers by saluting at the shoulder arms position. Sentries shall pay compliments in accordance with Chapter 10, Section 4. 

15.When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention. If on the march, arms shall be swung and the head turned to the left or right as required.



> you're going hard here like a salty senior NCO



I think the term 'salty' is one usually used with Navy Petty Officers and Chief Petty Officers, not so much Army or Air Force Snr NCOs and Warrant Officers.  

What is 'going hard'?  Telling you you're wrong, but then taking the time to show you the actual references for your knowledge and understanding?  



> I understand that it is a drill movement but I understand his/her question from the point of view as him/her not "drilling" around.



 :waiting:  

This is the part that you're not understanding, that I'm trying to help you understand. 

- there is no way to "pay compliments on the parade square" and a separate one for "when an officer is walking by me outside the Tim's at Stadacona".  It is done the same way, and the references to 'how to do it' are the ones I'm providing you.  

- the minor differences, usually, are (1) people aren't always marching formally everywhere leading up to the 'paying a compliment' situation, and (2) the movements are usually a little more relaxed when not on 'parade' but the way compliments are paid doesn't change.


----------



## RocketRichard

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I'll say this as plainly as possible so you can hopefully understand it.
> 
> Even if you are not on parade, saluting (i.e. - paying a compliment) is a drill movement.  It doesn't matter if it is done on a parade square, or not.
> 
> I'll back up a little bit to an earlier part of the Manual (201).
> 
> CFP 201, Chap 1, Section 2 - Compliments.
> 
> *SECTION 2 COMPLIMENTS*
> 
> GENERAL
> 
> 1.  Compliments are formal marks of respect and courtesy, i.e., salutes.
> 
> 2.  The military salute is a traditional demonstration of trust and respect. Although the method of saluting varies with circumstances, the paying of compliments is a fundamental requirement that is indispensable to service discipline.
> 
> 3.  In Canada, military compliments are only paid to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence; lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers. Exceptions, such as compliments paid to deceased service members, are as detailed in paragraphs 20 to 23 and paragraphs 25, 26, 28, 29 et 41.
> 
> 4.  Service individuals receiving a compliment shall acknowledge it.
> 
> 5.  _Detailed instructions on the techniques of paying individual compliments _are found elsewhere in this publication as follows:
> 
> a.  at the halt – Chapter 2;
> b.  on the march – Chapter 3;
> 
> (these are the parts of CFP 201 I was referencing earlier)
> 
> INDIVIDUAL
> 
> 9.Officers shall salute all officers of higher rank and shall return all compliments paid them. Senior officers receiving compliments from marching troops on a ceremonial parade shall hold the salute as each individual component passes directly by in review.
> 
> 10.Non-commissioned members shall salute all commissioned officers.
> 
> 11.  Officers and non-commissioned members not part of a formed military group shall all pay individual compliments to an approaching higher ranking officer (see also paragraph 12). The senior officer receiving the salute shall return the compliment, while military persons accompanying that officer give an eyes right/left in the same manner as saluting without headdress (paragraph 15) during the exchange of compliments or greetings.
> 
> 12.When an officer approaches a group of non-commissioned members, the senior of the group or the person who recognizes the officer first shall take command and call the group to attention: (GROUP, ATTEN-TION) the senior or person in charge shall then alone salute. Junior members shall draw their senior’s attention to approaching officers if the circumstances require and allow.
> 
> 13.Individual compliments to a formed military group on the march and under the command of an officer shall be paid by halting, turning to face the group and saluting. The salute should be maintained until the entire group has passed.
> 
> 14.While bearing arms, individuals shall pay compliments to officers by saluting at the shoulder arms position. Sentries shall pay compliments in accordance with Chapter 10, Section 4.
> 
> 15.When in uniform and not wearing headdress, compliments shall be paid by standing at attention. If on the march, arms shall be swung and the head turned to the left or right as required.
> 
> I think the term 'salty' is one usually used with Navy Petty Officers and Chief Petty Officers, not so much Army or Air Force Snr NCOs and Warrant Officers.
> 
> What is 'going hard'?  Telling you you're wrong, but then taking the time to show you the actual references for your knowledge and understanding?
> 
> :waiting:
> 
> This is the part that you're not understanding, that I'm trying to help you understand.
> 
> - there is no way to "pay compliments on the parade square" and a separate one for "when an officer is walking by me outside the Tim's at Stadacona".  It is done the same way, and the references to 'how to do it' are the ones I'm providing you.
> 
> - the minor differences, usually, are (1) people aren't always marching formally everywhere leading up to the 'paying a compliment' situation, and (2) the movements are usually a little more relaxed when not on 'parade' but the way compliments are paid doesn't change.


EITS is bang on and backs this up with references. This is a drill movement and is taught to every member of the CAF. Not very difficult to figure out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Round and round we go with this.... when in doubt about anything there is always a reference or publication which tells you what to do... you should look it up....


What is with this newer generation that wants everything handed to them...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> What is with this newer generation that wants everything handed to them...



...and when it's handed to them, then says "nope, that's not it..."   :dunno:


----------



## Blackadder1916

ChicknBone said:
			
		

> When saluting a superior, should you keep your right hand up to your brow until the person you are saluting has saluted back and their hand has gone back down to their side? At which point your hand would then go down. Or is it better to simply keep your hand up for about a second and wait at attention until the superior salutes back?
> Thank you



No discussion about saluting should overlook this.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzKTOUkroU0

I salute EITS for his explanation of saluting.

"Wait", there's no waiting in drill.  It's all about timing.  And the timing in the army is "1,2,3".  Whether it's square bashing with officers falling in and taking over from WOs/SMs, or someone falling out of ranks and reporting to an officer making a presentation, or even in the course of a normal days work if it is appropriate to the situation to salute the same timing is always used.  The individual moving (regardless if it is the senior or junior) comes to a halt, both parties "should" observe the standard pause and the saluting movement should appear coordinated.  I know that anytime that I was on parade as an officer and on falling in I repeated silently (and sometimes not so silently) the same counting that I learned in Cornwallis.  Halt, 2,3, Up, 2,3, Down, 2,3, and then accepted the report from the WO or CSM or RSM (or DCO) depending on the stage of my career.  Sometimes you could see the lips move as both of us would silently be doing the same count.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ...and when it's handed to them, then says "nope, that's not it..."   :dunno:



So true...


----------



## Bzzliteyr

And just a pet peeve, if you've got the motivation to write "he/she" you can save type and just write "they" until you've figured out someone's gender. 

You can also apply this to real life when unsure of someone's gender in emails, at a party, saluting at the halt, saluting while marching, etc...


----------



## Somerandomfellow

Is there a specific distance in the pubs which tells us an appropriate distance to salute someone while passing by? It’s always been “a judgement” call which can vary from person to person.

Is there an actual “minimum or maximum distance”? I took a look through the drill manual and didn’t see anything. I could have sworn I saw a distance before though. 

A few people in the office are having a debate so I decided to take this to the forums for answers!

Thanks! Hope everyone had a safe and enjoyable long weekend.


----------



## 211RadOp

From the Drill Manual Chapter 3:

80. When a service member salutes on the march, he shall commence the drill movement five paces before reaching an officer, look directly into the officer’s eyes by turning his head in the required direction on the commencement of the salute, and complete the salute one pace beyond him. This permits the officer to return the salute before the member has passed (Figure 3-12).


----------



## Blackadder1916

Somerandomfellow said:
			
		

> Is there a specific distance in the pubs which tells us an appropriate distance to salute someone while passing by? It’s always been “a judgement” call which can vary from person to person.
> 
> Is there an actual “minimum or maximum distance”? . . .



Does 211RadOp's reply answer your question or are you wondering if you have to salute someone only if they are within a certain radius?  Is your question more along the lines of situations such as, a member is walking on a sidewalk and there is an officer approaching on another pathway that is 90 degrees to the sidewalk - if the member will have passed the sidewalk/pathway intersection before the officer reaches it, how far away does the officer have to be before the member is required/expected to salute?  Or the other common situation, member is walking on the sidewalk and an officer is approaching on the sidewalk on the other side of the roadway, do you salute?  What if it is a really wide roadway, more than two lanes, there is traffic?  I've seen NCMs (and officers) very obviously and deliberately cross the street in an attempt to avoid saluting.


----------



## Pieman

I recall getting jacked up because a group of us did not salute a group of officers who drove by in a van with tinted windows. Doesn't exactly garnish respect for higher ranks when stuff like that happens.


----------



## dapaterson

I recall a gaggle of officers discussing some critical issue of the day (likely hockey playoff scores or some such) and a cabal of corporals marching past, one every thirty seconds or so, planting their right foot about 6" below the surface, loudly yelling "Sirs!" and delivering a drill-manual perfect salute as they passed.

After the first ten or so, the gaggle of officers retreated to a better place for their discussion.


----------



## Old Sweat

Common sense should prevail on the part of the saluter(s) and the saluted. Two stories of how ridiculous things can get from the distant past, aka the 1950s.

First, as told to me from a member of 1 RCHA circa 1957 on a divisional concentration in Gagetown. The division had been loaned a RCN helicopter to ferry the GOC around. Some moron decreed tat as it was the equivalent of a staff car, it would be saluted on sight by all ranks. (It was the only helicopter in Gagetown that summer.)  Anyway, the certain gunner subaltern was in the battery CP when he heard a helicopter. Following SOP he ran out of the CP towards their helicopter pad in case the great man was dropping in on them. Partway there he came across two of his soldiers, lying flat on their backs and presenting arms skyward. Probably fortunately for all involved below the rank of major general, the helicopter had proceeded on its way.

Second, I was serving in 4 RCHA as a gunner under a battery commander, whose stupidity was legendary, especially for a permanent force RMC graduate. Anyway, on a ceremonial drive past he fell out of his jeep and broke his right wrist. This resulted in him wearing a large plaster cast on his wrist and forearm. We took great delight in ambush saluting him, that is jumping out from places of concealment and braking "Good morning, sir" while doing the up-2-3-down drill movement. He would reflexively return the salute, bashing himself in the head with his cast, much to our delight.

The old adage, if it moves, salute it may be a useful guide.


----------



## Kirkhill

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> No discussion about saluting should overlook this.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzKTOUkroU0
> 
> I salute EITS for his explanation of saluting.
> 
> "Wait", there's no waiting in drill.  It's all about timing.  And the timing in the army is "1,2,3".  Whether it's square bashing with officers falling in and taking over from WOs/SMs, or someone falling out of ranks and reporting to an officer making a presentation, or even in the course of a normal days work if it is appropriate to the situation to salute the same timing is always used.  The individual moving (regardless if it is the senior or junior) comes to a halt, both parties "should" observe the standard pause and the saluting movement should appear coordinated.  I know that anytime that I was on parade as an officer and on falling in I repeated silently (and sometimes not so silently) the same counting that I learned in Cornwallis.  *Halt, 2,3, Up, 2,3, Down, 2,3*, and then accepted the report from the WO or CSM or RSM (or DCO) depending on the stage of my career.  Sometimes you could see the lips move as both of us would silently be doing the same count.



Same count I learned at Cubs, the Sea Cadets, the Fort Henry Guard (ca 1867) and mucking around with you lot.  Essentially waltz-time.  So why can't I dance?


----------



## Pusser

Bzzliteyr said:
			
		

> And just a pet peeve, if you've got the motivation to write "he/she" you can save type and just write "they" until you've figured out someone's gender.
> 
> You can also apply this to real life when unsure of someone's gender in emails, at a party, saluting at the halt, saluting while marching, etc...



Except that's not actually grammatically correct.  "They" is a third person plural pronoun, whereas "he" and "she" are third person singular pronouns.  English does not have a gender-neutral third person singular pronoun.  "They" is only correct if you are referring to more than one person.


----------



## Pusser

Pieman said:
			
		

> I recall getting jacked up because a group of us did not salute a group of officers who drove by in a van with tinted windows. Doesn't exactly garnish respect for higher ranks when stuff like that happens.



They're just being idiots.  The only vehicles that need to be saluted are those that are marked for that purpose (flags/plates).


----------



## garb811

Pusser said:
			
		

> Except that's not actually grammatically correct.  "They" is a third person plural pronoun, whereas "he" and "she" are third person singular pronouns.  English does not have a gender-neutral third person singular pronoun.  "They" is only correct if you are referring to more than one person.


The use of "they" in that situation is correct, as per the Oxford Dictionary:


> Definition of _they_ in English:
> ...
> 2 _third person plural singular_ Used to refer to a person of unspecified gender.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Meanwhile, one of my pet peeves, demonstrated often in TV images of the US Presidency....


A Senseless Salute

Soon after Ronald Reagan assumed his presidency, something new appeared with his image on the television screen. When given a salute by uniformed military personnel, Mr. Reagan would return it, shooting his right hand up to his bare head, his smile suggesting that this was something he liked to do. This unnecessary and unseemly habit was adopted by Mr. Reagan's successors, including Bill Clinton and especially George W. Bush, who steps off his plane and cocks a jaunty salute.

This gesture is of course quite wrong: such a salute has always required the wearing of a uniform. But there is more to this than a decline in military manners. There is something puerile in the Reagan (and now Bush) salute. 


https://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/14/opinion/a-senseless-salute.html


----------



## Pusser

garb811 said:
			
		

> The use of "they" in that situation is correct, as per the Oxford Dictionary:



I concede!  I guess I paid too much attention to the voices in my head (those of my Grade 7 English teacher and my father the English professor).  However, a little research reveals that using "they" (and them and their, etc.) actually dates from the 14th Century and that it was only in the 19th Century that some scholars tried to change the rules.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

Pusser said:
			
		

> I concede!  I guess I paid too much attention to the voices in my head (those of my Grade 7 English teacher and my father the English professor).  However, a little research reveals that using "they" (and them and their, etc.) actually dates from the 14th Century and that it was only in the 19th Century that some scholars tried to change the rules.



I accept your apology.


----------



## Jarnhamar

What happens if someone prefers to use he/she?


----------



## garb811

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What happens if someone prefers to use he/she?


S/he, she/he, he/she can all be considered acceptable as well given some or all of those variations can be found in most mainstream dictionaries.


----------



## Bzzliteyr

I





			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> What happens if someone prefers to use he/she?



If they mention their preferred pronouns then sure, use them. But if you're going to guess it's much more polite to say "they/them".


----------



## FSTO

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, one of my pet peeves, demonstrated often in TV images of the US Presidency....
> 
> 
> A Senseless Salute
> 
> Soon after Ronald Reagan assumed his presidency, something new appeared with his image on the television screen. When given a salute by uniformed military personnel, Mr. Reagan would return it, shooting his right hand up to his bare head, his smile suggesting that this was something he liked to do. This unnecessary and unseemly habit was adopted by Mr. Reagan's successors, including Bill Clinton and especially George W. Bush, who steps off his plane and cocks a jaunty salute.
> 
> This gesture is of course quite wrong: such a salute has always required the wearing of a uniform. But there is more to this than a decline in military manners. There is something puerile in the Reagan (and now Bush) salute.
> 
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/14/opinion/a-senseless-salute.html



What really grinds my gears is the Officer who salutes the PM as they get off the plane. FFS the PM is a minister of the crown, not the head of state and certainly not our Commander in Chief!


----------



## Ostrozac

FSTO said:
			
		

> What really grinds my gears is the Officer who salutes the PM as they get off the plane. FFS the PM is a minister of the crown, not the head of state and certainly not our Commander in Chief!



But our current policy is that we salute both heads of state and heads of government, foreign and domestic. The Prime Minister of Canada is a Head of Government, therefore rates a salute from a Canadian serviceman, as does the President of the USA, the President of Russia, Chairman Kim Jong-Un of North Korea, etc...

_In Canada, military compliments are only paid to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence; lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers. _ (the CAF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial)

Although this appears to be a rather recent innovation, historically. The 1883 version of the UK Queen's Regulations and Orders is pretty clear that compliments are for Royalty, Governors/Viceroys, etc, but Ministers of the Crown are not mentioned. Same thing for the 1917 version of King's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Militia.

At some point after 1917 compliments were removed from KR&O/QR&O and placed in the Drill and Ceremonial Pam, and Prime Ministers/Presidents/Comrade Chairmen were added to the list alongside royalty.


----------



## Petard

Never knew something so simple could get so twisted; then again, paying compliments can even get bent out of shape where the run a pretty tight ship
https://youtu.be/LowVhCfLm68


----------



## FSTO

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> But our current policy is that we salute both heads of state and heads of government, foreign and domestic. The Prime Minister of Canada is a Head of Government, therefore rates a salute from a Canadian serviceman, as does the President of the USA, the President of Russia, Chairman Kim Jong-Un of North Korea, etc...
> 
> _In Canada, military compliments are only paid to the Sovereign; the Governor General; members of the Royal Family; recognized foreign royalty; foreign heads of state or government; the Prime Minister; the Minister and Associate Minister of National Defence; lieutenant-governors; and commissioned officers. _ (the CAF Manual of Drill and Ceremonial)
> 
> Although this appears to be a rather recent innovation, historically. The 1883 version of the UK Queen's Regulations and Orders is pretty clear that compliments are for Royalty, Governors/Viceroys, etc, but Ministers of the Crown are not mentioned. Same thing for the 1917 version of King's Regulations and Orders for the Canadian Militia.
> 
> At some point after 1917 compliments were removed from KR&O/QR&O and placed in the Drill and Ceremonial Pam, and Prime Ministers/Presidents/Comrade Chairmen were added to the list alongside royalty.



I stand corrected then.  :not-again:
(I still don't like it though)


----------



## Furniture

Somerandomfellow said:
			
		

> Is there a specific distance in the pubs which tells us an appropriate distance to salute someone while passing by? It’s always been “a judgement” call which can vary from person to person.
> 
> Is there an actual “minimum or maximum distance”? I took a look through the drill manual and didn’t see anything. I could have sworn I saw a distance before though.
> 
> A few people in the office are having a debate so I decided to take this to the forums for answers!
> 
> Thanks! Hope everyone had a safe and enjoyable long weekend.



If it's past a distance that you would hold a conversation across, it's likely far enough away to not worry about paying compliments. If you're stopped simply throw a "high five", appologize, and be on your merry way. 

Funny story(to me at least);

This happened back when CADPAT was still fairly new('04-'06), and I was a young Cpl posted to Halifax. I worked out of the MARLANT HQ (D201), which also housed LFAA HQ. One morning before sunrise I was walking out to my car after a  12 hour shift, and noticed someone walking toward me with no rank on their slip on. In my slightly dazed mind I was thinking about how odd it was for a no hook Pte to so old... Just as I casually strolled past him I saw that he was BGen, I was already past by the time my mind processed the information. Nothing was ever said about it to me, but I imagine the look on my face as realization dawned gave the BGen a good chuckle.


----------



## Pusser

Furniture said:
			
		

> If it's past a distance that you would hold a conversation across, it's likely far enough away to not worry about paying compliments. If you're stopped simply throw a "high five", appologize, and be on your merry way.
> 
> Funny story(to me at least);
> 
> This happened back when CADPAT was still fairly new('04-'06), and I was a young Cpl posted to Halifax. I worked out of the MARLANT HQ (D201), which also housed LFAA HQ. One morning before sunrise I was walking out to my car after a  12 hour shift, and noticed someone walking toward me with no rank on their slip on. In my slightly dazed mind I was thinking about how odd it was for a no hook Pte to so old... Just as I casually strolled past him I saw that he was BGen, I was already past by the time my mind processed the information. Nothing was ever said about it to me, but I imagine the look on my face as realization dawned gave the BGen a good chuckle.



If you're wearing clothing specifically designed to remain unnoticed, don't be surprised when people don't notice you...


----------



## dimsum

Pusser said:
			
		

> If you're wearing clothing specifically designed to remain unnoticed, don't be surprised when people don't notice you...



Almost like the folks who get pissed off when you don't salute them while they're wearing backpacks that cover their shoulder epaulettes.  Ask me how I know this.


----------



## Pusser

For whatever reason, the Navy does not (or at least didn't as late as 2007) wear rank on its weather jackets (floater coats and all round operational cold-weather wear).  As a result, there is a always a good chance you will see a multitude of  folks running around the dockyard in uniform in cooler weather, whose rank cannot be identified unless it is on their Velcro nametag (they generally state ship, name, rank and position, but it's all written out without the use of rank badges).  One day, many years ago, I was jacked up by a sub-lieutenant who shouted, "don't you salute officers?"  "Not my subordinates as a general rule, " I replied as I pulled my weather jacket off to reveal my lieutenant(N) stripes... ;D


----------



## Blackadder1916

Furniture said:
			
		

> If it's past a distance that you would hold a conversation across, it's likely far enough away to not worry about paying compliments.  . . .



I suppose conversational distance depends on the individual.  Back in the dark ages, I recall a PPCLI Sergeant Major who not only saluted officers who may be passing by on the other end/side of the Currie Barracks parade square, but could be plainly heard demanding that the officer return the salute.  And then there was the Field Ambulance RSM who (as the story is told) would begin any telephone communication with an officer by popping to attention and saying "SIR, I AM SALUTING YOU".


----------



## daftandbarmy

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> And then there was the Field Ambulance RSM who (as the story is told) would begin any telephone communication with an officer by popping to attention and saying "SIR, I AM SALUTING YOU".



True story... about RSM Ronald Brittain, Coldstream Guards, apprently:

"RSM Brittain of the Coldstream Guards and RSM Brand of the Grenadiers were media figures. They had such authority on the parade ground and such a repertoire of invective that one terrified guardsman wet himself when he became the object of the RSMs holy wrath. There were stories of RSMs so besotted with bulshit that they saluted the telephone when an officer was speaking and did a smart 'left turn' drill movement when pushing a pram round a corner during an off-duty stroll." https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/80/a2875980.shtml

Always picked up the phone with his left, so he could salute with his right, hand as required, apparently 

https://books.google.ca/books?id=ZOLNAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=rsm+brittain+saluting+the+phone&source=bl&ots=wFZqHP5NS4&sig=ACfU3U3-atT4dmJmDaNTzYoENkxjS7QY9A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdvs6WqsHiAhVRCTQIHXyHDRIQ6AEwFXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=rsm%20brittain%20saluting%20the%20phone&f=false


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> And then there was the Field Ambulance RSM who (as the story is told) would begin any telephone communication with an officer by popping to attention and saying "SIR, I AM SALUTING YOU".



Funny one in that line: When I was a young subbie on PROTECTEUR, there was a C2 who had taken a dislike to a particular Lt on board. One day, I am walking with this Lt on the edge of the parade square (it wasn't a parking lot in those days) on A-Block side and that C2 happens to be on the other side, by the Fleet School buildings. He yells across the square "I AM SALUTING SIR!" so my friend the Lt replies, just as loudly, "AND YOU BLOODY WELL SHOULD BE TOO, CHIEF!". That stopped that nonsense real quick.



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> For whatever reason, the Navy does not (or at least didn't as late as 2007) wear rank on its weather jackets (floater coats and all round operational cold-weather wear).  As a result, there is a always a good chance you will see a multitude of  folks running around the dockyard in uniform in cooler weather, whose rank cannot be identified unless it is on their Velcro nametag (they generally state ship, name, rank and position, but it's all written out without the use of rank badges).  One day, many years ago, I was jacked up by a sub-lieutenant who shouted, "don't you salute officers?"  "Not my subordinates as a general rule, " I replied as I pulled my weather jacket off to reveal my lieutenant(N) stripes... ;D



Actually, Pusser, I don't know if things changed (must have by now) from my days, but, before this baseball cap madness struck, in the Dockyard in Halifax we used to wear as follows with our Floater jackets/rain gear (the "canary" suits): Officers wore their P. caps and the C&PO and seamen wore their berets. As a result, you could tell who was or not an officer, and within the officer corps, who was a subaltern, junior, senior or flag officer. So as a result, we had developed the rule that you saluted only out of your group. For instance, a A/SLt would not salute a LT, but would salute a Cdr. Or a Lcdr would not salute a Capt but would salute a VAdm.

Worked fine for everyone.


----------



## Loachman

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> The Prime Minister of Canada is a Head of Government, therefore rates a salute from a Canadian serviceman



The first time that I remember seeing this travesty was during the Chretien years.

Somebody either had an ego problem, or was trying to suck up.

There was certainly no such "entitlement" during the early part of my career.

It's wrong, and revolting.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Loachman said:
			
		

> It's wrong, and revolting.



... as are many of our politicians


----------



## mariomike

For reference to the discussion,

Compliments (Including Salutes)
http://www.army-armee.forces.gc.ca/en/honoraries/annex-g-compliments.page


----------



## garb811

Loachman said:
			
		

> The first time that I remember seeing this travesty was during the Chretien years.
> 
> Somebody either had an ego problem, or was trying to suck up.
> 
> There was certainly no such "entitlement" during the early part of my career.
> 
> It's wrong, and revolting.


I was present when Mulroney was saluted in the late 80s, pretty sure he predates Chretien... The MND was definitely being saluted at that time as well, a friend of mine was jacked up for not doing it.


----------



## dimsum

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> And then there was the Field Ambulance RSM who (as the story is told) would begin any telephone communication with an officer by popping to attention and saying "SIR, I AM SALUTING YOU".



I immediately thought of John Cleese for some reason.


----------



## Furniture

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I suppose conversational distance depends on the individual.  Back in the dark ages, I recall a PPCLI Sergeant Major who not only saluted officers who may be passing by on the other end/side of the Currie Barracks parade square, but could be plainly heard demanding that the officer return the salute.  And then there was the Field Ambulance RSM who (as the story is told) would begin any telephone communication with an officer by popping to attention and saying "SIR, I AM SALUTING YOU".



The long range salute isn't limited to the army... I had a Capt speak with me when I was a Pte in Cold Lake because I didn't salute him from across the road in the dark(I didn't even see him there). He waited in the hallway of the hangar to jack me up while I was returning from collecting my data for an observation.


----------



## mariomike

garb811 said:
			
		

> I was present when Mulroney was saluted in the late 80s, pretty sure he predates Chretien...



Wasn't there a news item about the RCMP having to politely explain to Mrs. M. that she was not entitled to a salute?

Is it customary in the US to salute FLOTUS?


----------



## OldSolduer

Who doesn’t like my little scheme of marchin up and down the square?


----------



## Blackadder1916

garb811 said:
			
		

> I was present when Mulroney was saluted in the late 80s, pretty sure he predates Chretien... The MND was definitely being saluted at that time as well, a friend of mine was jacked up for not doing it.



Agreed.  While it may not have been in the book [I checked CAMT 2-2 Drill (All Arms) (1959) and a CFOCS "Officers' Handbook Jul 1985"] it was probably always the accepted protocol to salute the PM and MND on appropriate occasions, (e.g. arr/dep military functions, establishments, or vehicles).  I think (but cannot be sure) that when I went through Cornwallis in the 1970s we were told that we were to salute those who were in that "chain of command" list that we had to memorize (the PM and MND of the day were in the list along with the Queen, GG, CDS and the BComd among others).  As for when such a practice began, I think this pre-dates Mulroney, Chretien or any other holder of the office that most here would have come into contact with.  What's that happening as he exits the vehicle? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaODHPGxV-I

Though British Army regulations don't specifically state that serving soldiers will (or will not) salute their PM and Defence Minister, it does very clearly say what level of honours (size of guards, no of gun salutes, etc) such office holders may receive when ceremony coincides with their job.

In one response to a (British) FOIA request the following was the reply.  It seems eminently civilized.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/758963/05935.pdf


> (iii) Is it incorrect for the armed forces personnel to salute members of Her Majesty's Government?
> 
> In short it is rarely wrong for anyone to pay a compliment to another and while there is no stated requirement to salute a member of Her Majesty’s Government, it is customary to do so in appropriate circumstances.



The world being the place it is and people being people, I can understand some on these means who have objections rendering any sort of honours to any individual with a political connection.  Thankfully, I no longer am compelled to render compliments to anyone; if I still was, my objection would be to the blanket requirement to salute any member of the Royal Family.  If one had to choose whom was more deserving of honours, which would it be - photo 1 or photo 2?


----------



## Jarnhamar

#2


----------



## Furniture

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The world being the place it is and people being people, I can understand some on these means who have objections rendering any sort of honours to any individual with a political connection.  Thankfully, I no longer am compelled to render compliments to anyone; if I still was, my objection would be to the blanket requirement to salute any member of the Royal Family.  If one had to choose whom was more deserving of honours, which would it be - photo 1 or photo 2?



With a functioning arm I never have to choose just one, but if forced to do so it would be #2. 

My reasoning is the whole tradition of saluting is anachronistic, so it is more appropriate as a form of showing respect to a member of the Royal Family. If the civilian world goes back to it being common to tip your hat to people as a way of showing respect I'dll be glad to revise my opinion.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I don't think something that is done, today, in every military of every nation can be considered anachronistic. And I don't think it came from the tip of the hat that was a British thing in its days - and not a French or continental European, or Asian , or Middle eastern thing at any time. The fact that the British justified the salute on that basis does not extend to everybody else who'd it. We must conclude that military saluting has a different basis therefore.


----------



## Furniture

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I don't think something that is done, today, in every military of every nation can be considered anachronistic. And I don't think it came from the tip of the hat that was a British thing in its days - and not a French or continental European, or Asian , or Middle eastern thing at any time. The fact that the British justified the salute on that basis does not extend to everybody else who'd it. We must conclude that military saluting has a different basis therefore.



Military fashion and tradition comes from the culture that the military is from, or the culture/military that is being copied or imitated. 

That other militaries around the world have adopted the western standard for saluting doesn't make it's origins any less "from another time". 

That said I'm not against tradition or anachronishms (like some people consider the Monarchy), quite the opposite actually. I believe that traditional practices help keep us rooted to our history and culture, and I think our history and culture are well worth preserving and honouring.


----------



## garb811

Another take on the origin of the salute from The Met's website under their Misconceptions and Questions Relating to Armor:


> ...
> Be that as it may, English seventeenth-century military records indicate that “the formal act of saluting was to be by removal of headdress.” By about 1745, an English regiment, the Coldstream Guards, appears to have amended this procedure, being instructed to “clap their hands to their hats and bow as they pass by.” This practice was quickly adopted by other English regiments and may have spread from England to America (via the War of Independence) and Continental Europe (through the Napoleonic Wars). Accordingly, the truth may lie somewhere in the middle, with the military salute originating as a gesture of respect and politeness parallel to the civilian custom of raising or tipping one’s hat, possibly in combination with the warrior’s custom of showing an unarmed right hand.


If you consider the salute to be anachronistic, I suppose you'd consider the entire idea of what we do for drill to be as well. After all, the entire point of drill was to train and execute tactical maneuvers on the battlefield, not for pomp and circumstance.


----------



## daftandbarmy

I'll just leave this right here 

"If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?" General George S. Patton


----------



## Blackadder1916

One story of the salute

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/video-gallery/video/8082


----------



## Pusser

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> If one had to choose whom was more deserving of honours, which would it be - photo 1 or photo 2?



This is actually a tough choice.  Currently, the MND is also a commissioned officer, so he actually rates a salute on two counts.  Officers' commissions are generally for life (only one Canadian officer has actually been stripped of his commission) and so they carry it into retirement.


----------



## Drallib

I've been searching for this answer for a while now and have asked many people with different answers.

Do you salute when you're not on base?

For example, you go out for lunch and in the parking lot of Tim Hortons or the grocery store, do you salute an officer? (both in uniform obviously)

Thanks.


----------



## FSTO

Drallib said:
			
		

> I've been searching for this answer for a while now and have asked many people with different answers.
> 
> Do you salute when you're not on base?
> 
> For example, you go out for lunch and in the parking lot of Tim Hortons or the grocery store, do you salute an officer? (both in uniform obviously)
> 
> Thanks.



Yes.


----------



## 211RadOp

Drallib said:
			
		

> I've been searching for this answer for a while now and have asked many people with different answers.
> 
> Do you salute when you're not on base?
> 
> For example, you go out for lunch and in the parking lot of Tim Hortons or the grocery store, do you salute an officer? (both in uniform obviously)
> 
> Thanks.


Easy to find, even using the wonderful DWAN search engine.

From Chapter 1 Section 2 of the Manual of Drill and Cerimonial:



> INDIVIDUAL
> 9. Officers shall salute all officers of higher rank and shall return all compliments paid them. Senior officers
> receiving compliments from marching troops on a ceremonial parade shall hold the salute as each individual
> component passes directly by in review.
> 10. Non-commissioned members shall salute all commissioned officers.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> CIVILIAN DRESS
> 16. Appropriate compliments shall be paid when recognizing an officer dressed in civilian clothing.



http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-201/dhh_manual_drill_cermonial.pdf


----------



## Drallib

211RadOp said:
			
		

> Easy to find, even using the wonderful DWAN search engine.
> 
> From Chapter 1 Section 2 of the Manual of Drill and Cerimonial:
> 
> http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/ins-201/dhh_manual_drill_cermonial.pdf



Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't read anything about being out in the public. Public buildings, turn your head and offer a polite greeting. Edit: But outside in a public setting it doesn't say whether to offer just a polite greeting or to salute the officer.


----------



## 211RadOp

Para 10. Non-commissioned members shall salute all commissioned officers.

There is no distinction on public/private/military property.


----------



## Burrows

Drallib said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't read anything about being out in the public. Public buildings, turn your head and offer a polite greeting. Edit: But outside in a public setting it doesn't say whether to offer just a polite greeting or to salute the officer.



You aren't missing it - the expectation does not change based on venue so it doesn't need to be stated.


----------



## Drallib

Kyle Burrows said:
			
		

> You aren't missing it - the expectation does not change based on venue so it doesn't need to be stated.



Thanks


----------



## Colin Parkinson

For someone who is very fond of being saluted, it's always good to have a large number of recruits walk by them individually as the officer is talking to his girlfriend and have the recruits salute him, forcing him to turn and return the salute, after about 30 times in a row he was getting tired of being saluted and retreated to an office. We noted that the glamour had faded from the idea after that. I saluted an Air Force officer at CFB Trenton who didn't bother to return the salute which he clearly saw. The General behind him did see it and stopped us both and schooled the Officer on the importance of returning the salute, making him practice it. The General thanked me for my time in the instruction. I don't think the Officer was as happy.


----------



## 211RadOp

Walking to work when I was at 101, I saluted an Air Force Maj one day.  He was carrying a briefcase and talking on his cell phone.  It was funny watching him trying to juggle everything to return it.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Colin P said:
			
		

> For someone who is very fond of being saluted, it's always good to have a large number of recruits walk by them individually as the officer is talking to his girlfriend and have the recruits salute him, forcing him to turn and return the salute, after about 30 times in a row he was getting tired of being saluted and retreated to an office. We noted that the glamour had faded from the idea after that. I saluted an Air Force officer at CFB Trenton who didn't bother to return the salute which he clearly saw. The General behind him did see it and stopped up both and schooled the Officer on the importance of returning the salute, making him practice it. The General thanked me for my time in the instruction. I don't think the Officer was as happy.



He pulled a 'Chesty Puller' 

"Puller insisted upon good equipment and discipline; once he came upon a second lieutenant who had ordered an enlisted man to salute him 100 times for missing a salute. Puller told the lieutenant, "You were absolutely correct in making him salute you 100 times, Lieutenant, but you know that an officer must return every salute he receives. Now return them all, and I will keep count."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesty_Puller


----------

