# Conflicting Information - Is there a good way to sort it out?



## Hollanr (11 Dec 2008)

Hi,

Over the past two days, I've received some rather confusing information.  I'd like to know the best way to confirm either 'case' so that I can plan accordingly.  I wasn't able to find the information I'm looking for in the forum, but if I missed it , please send me in the right direction and feel free to lock/delete this thread.  

First the backstory:

I applied for the Pilot trade (DEO entry plan) back in April, and had finished my medical, eye exam, CFAT, and interview by the end of the month.  I then waited until mid September to be sent for aircrew selection (the long delay likely caused by the medical lab sending my results to the recruiting center 2 months late), where I "met the standard for Pilot", and passed the aircrew medical.  So far so good.  I submitted my expense claim back at the recruiting center and when I asked what was next,  was told once they received the aircrew medical results, I would be merit listed and then would be in for a wait.  I asked a few questions regarding the merit list, was satisfied and went on my way.  So far so good.

*Conflicting Information #1*
I was back in the recruiting office Nov. 5th to deliver a money order (I had been given too much money for Air crew selection), and while I was there, I asked for an update on where I stood.  I was told at this time that the medical results were in, and that I was now on the merit list.  They reiterated that all pilot positions for the year had been filled and that the earliest I would see an offer (If selected) would be May of 2009.  I was told my file would stay open, and that I would need to do an updated interview and medical in April (as the originals done in April of this year would expire).  I left the office excited about being on the merit list, and went home to start playing the waiting game.

*Conflicting Information #2*
This part began with a phone call from the recruiting office on Monday, during which I was told I had not been selected for a pilot position this year.  I was asked if I would like to change my application to another trade.  I assumed this was just an 'official notice' of what I had been told back in November (regarding all spots being filled);  I told the gentleman I was not interested in any other trades at this time, and I asked if what I had been told back in November (about waiting until the next fiscal year) still applied.  He said yes, and asked me to confirm that I would like to keep my file open for consideration in the next year, reminding me that I would need to do an updated interview and medical sometime in April.  I agreed that this was the course of action I wanted to follow (nothing had changed in terms of how the rest of the process would play out), I thanked him and the conversation was over.

I then received a second call a few hours later (missed it unfortunately), informing me that he had come across some more information regarding my file, and asking that I call back when I get a chance.  I called back first thing Tuesday morning, and was told that under no circumstances would I considered for a pilot position, and again was offered an opportunity to change trades.  To my understanding, my being on the merit list meant just the opposite (that I would be considered for a position), and would stay on the merit list until I withdrew my application, or was eventually selected for a position; I asked for some clarification on the matter and he agreed; although he informed me that I was at no time on the merit list, due to a low interview score (causing a low mp score).  According to the Captain who interviewed me, there is nothing about myself I need to change (ie. education, experience, fitness, community service, and activities are all great), it's just that the interview could have been better.  I was unable to get him to elaborate further

*My Questions*
I had one person in November telling me face to face, that I had been merit listed, and now have another telling me the opposite.  I figure there is an equal chance both of them are mistaken, so:
1. What is the best way to go about confirming this one way or the other?  
2. Is there an ideal third party to talk to in such a situation?
3. I have been warned by a former CF pilot that recruiting center's can be rather ruthless in steering applicants from Pilot, to other 'vacant' trades, is that possibly what is going on here?
4. If my interview score was too low, why would I have been passed along the line and sent for ACS?  If there is nothing else I could do to offset the interview score, would they not have known I was ineligible back in April?
5. Any other suggestions in how to proceed?

In any case, it seems this will not really affect the time line of getting (or not getting) an offer; I have to redo the interview and medical in April either way, and am under the impression that ACS and CFAT results will still be valid when I reapply in April.  The only difference seems to whether my file stays open (in case#1) or if my file is closed, requiring me to reapply (in case #2).  

I am a little frustrated at the moment, but still 100% dedicated to becoming a CF Pilot.  I'm sure the trouble/wait will be worth it in the end.

Thanks in advance for your replies.


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## Rec Centre Toronto CO (11 Dec 2008)

Let me start off by saying that the merit list is a list of applicants who were found to be 'suitable and competitive' for the limited Pilot positions.  'Competitive' could mean you are the ideal person for the job, or you're like the Maple Leafs competing for the Stanley Cup.  The merit list ranges from those who have just barely made the standard to those who have thousands of commercial flying hours.  The demand for these pilot positions is obviously high and competition is stiff.  This means that if you are low on the merit list, as you indicated, then the chances of you scoring one of these positions is slim to none.  The recruiter that called you is really trying to do you a favour by telling you to consider another occupation in the forces and likely the Air Force.  This way you get close to the flying community, learn what pilots really do, get CF experience and make yourself that much more competitive if you decide to transfer to being a pilot later on.  NOTE: These transfers are difficult to achieve, move at the speed of Ottawa and are not guaranteed.  There are plenty of great officer occupations in the Air Force that allow you to do this - Aerospace Controller, Air Weapons, Aerospace Engineer.  If you decide not to consider these options, then you will be waiting a long time for a position that may never come.
Good luck with your decision.


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## koopa (11 Dec 2008)

> 4. If my interview score was too low, why would I have been passed along the line and sent for ACS?  If there is nothing else I could do to offset the interview score, would they not have known I was ineligible back in April?



It is possible that they raised the minimum score sometime in between your interview and merit listing, which happened to me. Since my score was just a wee bit under following the change, they allowed me to redo my interview in June 2007. Following that successful interview, I was only then given approval for ACS but by that date (September) to go they cancelled all further testing due to a large influx of commercial pilots who lost their job. Never got my chance as well but theres always next year.


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## Marshall (11 Dec 2008)

Sorry to go off course, but would they let you know if your interview was insufficient for your trades before finalizing your application process for the review board? (although I am ROTP, not DEO). 

I also find it odd how you would be passed to do your ACS if you were at a score that you could never obtain the pilot position you applied for.. Unless ACS is given to all Air Force positions? and you had a score suitable for some lesser positions. (I am not too educated in Air Force processing.. sorry)


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## Hollanr (11 Dec 2008)

Marshall said:
			
		

> Sorry to go off course, but would they let you know if your interview was insufficient for your trades before finalizing your application process for the review board? (although I am ROTP, not DEO).
> 
> I also find it odd how you would be passed to do your ACS if you were at a score that you could never obtain the pilot position you applied for.. Unless ACS is given to all Air Force positions? and you had a score suitable for some lesser positions. (I am not too educated in Air Force processing.. sorry)



This is one of the parts I find odd.  Why waste the money sending me to Trenton/Toronto, paying for food and transportation etc if I would never be eligible for a spot.  If I had put air navigator as second choice I could see it, but only pilot was on my app.


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## Marshall (11 Dec 2008)

Hollanr said:
			
		

> This is one of the parts I find odd.  Why waste the money sending me to Trenton/Toronto, paying for food and transportation etc if I would never be eligible for a spot.  If I had put air navigator as second choice I could see it, but only pilot was on my app.



Do you take the course no matter the air force trade tho? Or is it pilot specific


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## Hollanr (12 Dec 2008)

To my understanding, the course is specific to Pilots and Air Navigators.


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## Rec Centre Toronto CO (12 Dec 2008)

If you are found suitable and competitive and you have passed the medical, you go to ACS as a further step of the screening process.  You go on the merit list after being found suitable and competitive, and you will be further processed conditional upon successful completion of ACS.  ACS is only for pilots and Air Systems Control Officer (new name - it used to be called Air Navigator).  This is the regular processing methodology.


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## aesop081 (12 Dec 2008)

Rec Centre Toronto CO said:
			
		

> Air Systems Control Officer (new name - it used to be called Air Navigator).



Air Combat Systems Officer.......starting Jan 1st 2009.


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## Rec Centre Toronto CO (12 Dec 2008)

My mistake - absolutely correct and thank you.


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## Marshall (12 Dec 2008)

Rec Centre Toronto CO said:
			
		

> If you are found suitable and competitive and you have passed the medical, you go to ACS as a further step of the screening process.  You go on the merit list after being found suitable and competitive, and you will be further processed conditional upon successful completion of ACS.  ACS is only for pilots and Air Systems Control Officer (new name - it used to be called Air Navigator).  This is the regular processing methodology.



Hmm, then that would further make us question why they made him do the ACS if his interview score was so terrible that he never had the chance anyways. Someone must of error'd? :/


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## Rec Centre Toronto CO (12 Dec 2008)

No error - there is a massive difference between a small chance and no chance.  This one has a small chance and it appears he was given due process.  I'll add that he continues to have access to a great many other trades, and/or if the pilot community wanted to select more, then they can do so - and this one could still get picked up - but I suspect not soon.
Try not to personalize or individualize this issue.  I suspect there is a question of 'why did this happen to me?'  Well, it didn't just happen to you.  It happens to everyone who goes through this process.  Everyone gets a chance to qualify.  At every stage of the selection process, some make it and some don't.  At each stage, someone has to be on the top of the list and someone has to be at the bottom.  There is no conspiracy against one individual to 'screw someone over.' At each stage of the process, which takes time, policies can change, directives can be promulgated, criteria modified and efforts reinvigourated.


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## Marshall (12 Dec 2008)

Rec Centre Toronto CO said:
			
		

> No error - there is a massive difference between a small chance and no chance.  This one has a small chance and it appears he was given due process.  I'll add that he continues to have access to a great many other trades, and/or if the pilot community wanted to select more, then they can do so - and this one could still get picked up - but I suspect not soon.
> Try not to personalize or individualize this issue.  I suspect there is a question of 'why did this happen to me?'  Well, it didn't just happen to you.  It happens to everyone who goes through this process.  Everyone gets a chance to qualify.  At every stage of the selection process, some make it and some don't.  At each stage, someone has to be on the top of the list and someone has to be at the bottom.  There is no conspiracy against one individual to 'screw someone over.' At each stage of the process, which takes time, policies can change, directives can be promulgated, criteria modified and efforts reinvigourated.



Ah good response, I guess that clears that question up.

Thanks.


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## Folgers (13 Dec 2008)

I've applied for Pilot as a DEO, and am now just waiting for my medical to come back and hopefully will get a date for ACS. I remember during my interview, the Captain told me that if I had applied one year earlier (meaning Sept 2007), he wouldn't even have interviewed me, as they had a surge of applicants with CPL's and ATPL's and 1000's of hours, making my PPL with 100 hours look pretty weak. However, he said my timing was good because this is not necessarily the case anymore, and that I should do my best to move things along quickly in case things turn again. I had PRK laser eye surgery 3 months ago so until very recently, my application was frozen. Anyways, just goes to show you how the criteria is in constant flux, and while you may be fairly competitive at one point, you could find yourself lower on the totem pole if things don't go your way. 

On that note, can anyone provide any info on what the situation is looking like now in terms of competitiveness? (ie is it high or ridiculously high? - I don't think the competition is ever low for this trade) You gotta wonder with how the economy is now, there may be some pilots out of work that are suddenly attracted to the relative job security in the CF should they make it in. Also is it true that all Pilot postions are filled for this fiscal year? 

Thanks


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## Hollanr (14 Dec 2008)

Folgers said:
			
		

> Also is it true that all Pilot postions are filled for this fiscal year?


They told me all spots had been filled back in November, I'm assuming that is indeed the case.



			
				Rec Centre Toronto CO said:
			
		

> and/or if the pilot community wanted to select more, then they can do so - and this one could still get picked up - but I suspect not soon.


This would only hold true if I was on the merit list correct?  Last I talked to them my application will be closed and I'll be removed from he system unless I take another trade.

This is what I want to get sorted out, was I merit listed (as told in november) or not merit listed (as told last week)?  Can you be removed from the list? If so maybe he meant I had been removed from the list, rather than never having been on it in the first place.

If on the list with my interview score preventing me from truly being competitive for a spot, would the interview required again in April to keep my file current not present an opportunity for improvement in this area? (According to the guy I talked to, this is the only weak area of my file...)

Since I've decided to pursue this the wait has been:
4 years for school
1 year after realizing my eyesight wasn't perfect (right before i graduated of course)
1 year after the eyesight regulations were changed (Went in the work day after the announcement, waited till the end of the week for HS transcripts.  By then the office was no longer accepting pilot app's.... Wait till April '08)
If I waited this long already, I can tough it out for another year.

My plan as it stands:
If on the merit list and my file stays open - Wait until April, do an update interview and medical, and wait some more.
If not on the merit list and my file closes - Wait until April, submit a new application, do the interview and medical, and wait some more.

At the end of the day, the time line with either option doesn't really seem to change.

Thanks again for all your input


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## Marshall (14 Dec 2008)

Hollanr said:
			
		

> They told me all spots had been filled back in November, I'm assuming that is indeed the case.
> This would only hold true if I was on the merit list correct?  Last I talked to them my application will be closed and I'll be removed from he system unless I take another trade.
> 
> This is what I want to get sorted out, was I merit listed (as told in november) or not merit listed (as told last week)?  Can you be removed from the list? If so maybe he meant I had been removed from the list, rather than never having been on it in the first place.
> ...



I hope you the best which ever way you must take.


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## Folgers (14 Dec 2008)

Hollanr - I hope things eventually work out for you and wish you all the best. Sounds like you have the right attitude about it.


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## Rec Centre Toronto CO (7 Jan 2009)

Hollanr said:
			
		

> Since I've decided to pursue this the wait has been:
> 4 years for school
> 1 year after realizing my eyesight wasn't perfect (right before i graduated of course)
> 1 year after the eyesight regulations were changed (Went in the work day after the announcement, waited till the end of the week for HS transcripts.  By then the office was no longer accepting pilot app's.... Wait till April '08)
> If I waited this long already, I can tough it out for another year.



A comment on waiting times here:
4 years for school: your choice - not the military - you could have taken other occupations or entered under other programs at any time.
1 year for eyesight: fact of life - not the Rec centre's fault.
1 year after eyesight regulation changes: if there are no positions, there are no positions.

Don't make it look like the centre has been keeping you waiting for 6 years when they haven't.  
Be honest with yourself and "tough it out", like you said, if you like, but consider all the factors and what your realistic chances may be.
By the way, did you consider that during those 6 years you could have pursued your own commercial pilot's licence to help you along and improve your chances?  Something to think about if you're really keen to fly.
Good luck.


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## Hollanr (7 Jan 2009)

Rec Centre Toronto CO,
I Guess I should have been clearer and instead said It's been a 6 year 'path' to get to this point rather than a 'wait'.  I did not mean to imply the recruiting center has been keeping me waiting (In fact the opposite is true, I've felt they have been moving the things in their power along as quickly as possible). I instead meant that 'in my mind' I have been trying to get to this point for 6 years, and that being the case, I am not willing to change my mind and move on to something else just yet. The staff at the recruiting center has been very supportive and helpful from the get go.  I in no means feel I'm getting screwed out of a spot, it's just discouraging since I had allowed myself to believe i was closer than I was (no one to blame there except myself).  I will indeed keep pushing towards my goal despite the inconveniences, confusion, setbacks etc.

Also, I didn't mention earlier, but  I am a licensed pilot already and am currently working towards my commercial permit.  With any luck (weather and $ permitting), I'll have finished my commercial license early enough to skip PFT, or if my number hasn't yet been pulled, will be out of engineering and into commercial aviation within the year.

Thanks again for your reply


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