# The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic



## Kirkhill (29 Oct 2022)

*As with Andrew Coyne, I have often found myself at odds with Jeffrey Simpson's views.... but I can't say I disagree with him here.*​
A long read.
​


> Decline of the Liberal empire in Canada​Under Justin Trudeau, the Liberals have lost many of the values and stabilizing influences that kept his predecessors connected to Canadians
> JEFFREY SIMPSONSPECIAL TO THE GLOBE AND MAILPUBLISHED OCTOBER 29, 2022
> 
> _Jeffrey Simpson is the author of eight books and the former national affairs columnist for The Globe and Mail. This essay is adapted from a speech delivered at St. Francis Xavier University on Oct. 20._
> ...











						Opinion: Canada’s Liberals are an empire in decline with a leader in trouble
					

Under Justin Trudeau, the Liberals have lost many of the values and stabilizing influences that kept his predecessors connected to Canadians




					www.theglobeandmail.com
				




Mr. Simpson is half way there in his appreciation of Poilievre's appeal.

He points to the young, disaffected males (coincidentally the recruiting pool for the CAF), noting that 66% of 18 to 34 year olds disapprove of the Trudeau Liberals.  He fails to note that 46% of 18 to 34 year old females also disapprove of the Trudeau Liberals.  That compares to 45% that approve.

Trudeau apparently polls most strongly with Boomer women with 50% approval.  But 46% of Boomer women disapprove.

In Britain we might have said he is batting on a losing wicket.


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## RangerRay (29 Oct 2022)

Another rare time I have agreed with Jeffrey Simpson. 

Reading his columns in the Globe and Mail used to make me throw it in the garbage in disgust. They were dripping with Laurentian contempt. 

Some years ago I bought his book, “The Friendly Dictatorship”. In it he called out the dysfunctional system that allowed power to concentrate in the PMO. He also discussed how a PM with a majority faces no checks and balances, hand picks the Upper House of Parliament and Supreme Court and is basically an elected dictator. He also discussed how this system feeds Western alienation. He blamed both Liberals and Tories, but put the lions’ share at the feet of St. Pierre.


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## Halifax Tar (29 Oct 2022)

Long, but good read. Thanks for sharing.


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## Kirkhill (29 Oct 2022)

Belated thought 

Summary of Trudeau's appeal 


half of all women and one third of all men approve  - 42% of the population
half of all women and two thirds of all men disapprove - 58% of the population


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## ArmyRick (29 Oct 2022)

Following. I really believe Trudeau needs a good spanking and humbling. He is politically cocky and is very ego driven. The country has suffered because of it.


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## Remius (29 Oct 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> Following. I really believe Trudeau needs a good spanking and humbling. He is politically cocky and is very ego driven. The country has suffered because of it.


I was convinced he wouldn’t run again.  He seems to have indicated he will.  Some people don’t know when they are past their best before date.


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## brihard (29 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> I was convinced he wouldn’t run again.  He seems to have indicated he will.  Some people don’t know when they are past their best before date.


Indeed. I still hope he hangs up his gloves, but it looks less and less likely.

What remains to be seen is how much is the approval/disapproval of Trudeau going to carry across to party voting intentions, and also how it stacks up against the respective palatability of the alternatives. Sometimes elections are won by those that simply are believed to suck less in the balance. Can the CPC offer a sufficiently compelling alternative? Will Poilievre be seen as sucking less than Trudeau? What I _don’t_ think we’re in for is an election where any of them are particularly inspiring.


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## Brad Sallows (29 Oct 2022)

Oh, come on.  Just LOOK at Jagmeet.  How can you not be inspired by such sartorial excellence?


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## Haggis (29 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Indeed. I still hope he hangs up his gloves, but it looks less and less likely.


He's stated publicly that he will run again.  No walk in the snow for him.


brihard said:


> What remains to be seen is how much is the approval/disapproval of Trudeau going to carry across to party voting intentions, and also how it stacks up against the respective palatability of the alternatives. Sometimes elections are won by those that simply are believed to suck less in the balance. Can the CPC offer a sufficiently compelling alternative? Will Poilievre be seen as sucking less than Trudeau? What I _don’t_ think we’re in for is an election where any of them are particularly inspiring.


Trudeau and his Liberals campaign far better than they govern.  They understand that election promises are meant to be broken and only those that will get them re-elected are worth fulfilling.  Trudeau can promise the moon knowing he won't really have to deliver much of substance, particularly if (when) he gets his majority.


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## Kirkhill (29 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> I was convinced he wouldn’t run again.  He seems to have indicated he will.  Some people don’t know when they are past their best before date.



This is the relevant sentence.  In particular the word "seems".


> He seems to have indicated he will.



I was astonished by the Freeland Doctrine.  I am equally taken by the pivoting on China.  I am holding my breath on Joly's Indo-Pacific Strategy.

I don't think sudden change is impossible and one of those sudden changes could be Trudeau following his father into a snow-drift.   Especially if the Globe and Simpson and Coyne are starting to mutter darkly.

I think it is likely that Trudeau is making the right noises to hold the line even as a withdrawal occurs behind him.   "I'm staying ... until I'm not."


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## Furniture (29 Oct 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> This is the relevant sentence.  In particular the word "seems".
> 
> 
> I was astonished by the Freeland Doctrine.  I am equally taken by the pivoting on China.  I am holding my breath on Joly's Indo-Pacific Strategy.
> ...


I have been thinking along the same lines, I suspect Freeland is angling to force Trudeau out.


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## Kirkhill (29 Oct 2022)

Furniture said:


> I have been thinking along the same lines, I suspect Freeland is angling to force Trudeau out.



It wouldn't surprise me to hear she has friends urging her forwards.


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## OldSolduer (29 Oct 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> It wouldn't surprise me to hear she has friends urging her forwards.


First thing dump the eco terrorist they call the Environment Minister.


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## RangerRay (30 Oct 2022)

With the current line up, I am convinced we will see a flood of NDP voters rush to the Liberals.  Pollievre is going to scare the shit out of them and Trudeau will be more than happy to run to the left of the NDP. 

Blue-collar workers have abandoned the NDP long ago.


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## brihard (30 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> With the current line up, I am convinced we will see a flood of NDP voters rush to the Liberals.  Pollievre is going to scare the shit out of them and Trudeau will be more than happy to run to the left of the NDP.
> 
> Blue-collar workers have abandoned the NDP long ago.


I think you may be right that Poilievre will motivate some strategic voting on the left.


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## rmc_wannabe (30 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I think you may be right that Poilievre will motivate some strategic voting on the left.


Hell, Scheer and O'Toole both caused strategic voting amongst the left ; and they were far more moderate than PP (and aboutbas charismatic as a wet sock). 

The LPC has done a great job of branding themselves as the only option for folks who "have a social conscience, but also know how much things cost." We all know that is blatantly false, but the polling shows the messaging works(ed) with voters.

I would love to see Freeland stage a coup in caucus. I would see it as having at least one grown up in the room, until the CPC can figure out Canadians don't want social conservatism anymore than they like the eco-socialism they've been living under for 8 years. 

The NDP are a distraction, much like the Greens and the PPC. When push comes to shove, we are Blue or Red voters. Until we change our electoral processes, this will continue indefinitely.


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## Edward Campbell (30 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> With the current line up, I am convinced we will see a flood of NDP voters rush to the Liberals.  Pollievre is going to scare the shit out of them and Trudeau will be more than happy to run to the left of the NDP.
> 
> Blue-collar workers have abandoned the NDP long ago.


I* fear* you are right, but it may to be quite as bad as that.

First, a lot of the NDP vote went Liberal in 2015 and it stayed there: 

2011: Con - 39.6%  *NDP - 30.6% * Lib - 18.9%​2015: Con - 31.9% * NDP - 19.7%*  Lib - 39.4%​2018: Con - 34.3%  *NDP - 15.9%*  Lib - 33.1%​2021: Con - 33.7%  *NDP - 17.8%*  Lib - 32.6%​
The Liberals are and were, under Trudeau, below their historic 'normal' levels of 40+% when they win. The Conservatives are just below their 'normal' historic levels and the NDP is back (after Le Bon Jack) at something very near its normal historical level of support.

*I agree* fully that the blue collar vote has abandoned the NDP, but it is, I think, at least in Ontario, shifting to the Conservatives, even under Poilievre. _My guess_, based on the UK's and Ontario's recent elections, is that the blue collar voters are inclined to the populist messages that Poilievre is sending. Mr Simpson is right about the_ pink collar_ vote in Canada, even if _I suspect_ he was unwise to express his views as he did. The Liberals still, _it seems to me_, have a firm grip on their female/feminist vote but inflation might be Poilievre's best friend because Canadian women also, traditionally, vote with their pocket books. If the shifting blue collar vote and inflation combine then the next election (2023/24/25) could see this:

Con - 36% (125± seats) / NDP - 17% (50± seats) / Lib - 32% (120± seats) / Others - 25% (40± seats)​
In this situation the Liberals would, likely, still be allowed to form a government with explicit NDP support, but it might force Trudeau to accept a formal coalition with a few NDP ministers in key roles. That might NOT bother the Trudeau wing of the Liberal Party because they are comfortable with a well left of centre policy base. But it will bother the so-called Manley Liberals, the social moderates and fiscal conservatives, who are already restless, _I think_. That could mean a serious split of the Liberal Party and that is something that might make most Liberals back away.

_My guess_ - maybe just a_ feeling_ - is that Chrystia Freeland is, already, 'yesterday's woman.' _I think_ she is too closely tied to the Trudeau faction and _I suspect_ that there isn't enough 'wiggle room' for her sudden "Freeland Doctrine" to make any difference._ I think_ the Manley Liberals abandoned her long ago. _I also suspect_ that IF Pierre Poilievre fails to win a solid minority (one that a Liberal/NDP coalition, no mater how in formal, cannot prevent or overthrow, quickly) then he is done. 

Here is what _I could see_ as a left-right spectrum for Canada in the second half of the 2020s:


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## Remius (30 Oct 2022)

I did hear something along that vein of of blue NDP types.  Tom Mulcair was talking about it last week I believe.

I also agree with Mr. Campbell’s assertion that Freeland is yesterday’s woman.  If they wanted her as leader they should have done it by now and the longer JT stays on the longer the taint.  I say this with respect to her though as I also think she’s one of the adults in the room as well.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> In this situation the Liberals would, likely, still be allowed to form a government with explicit NDP support, but it might force Trudeau to accept a formal coalition with a few NDP ministers in key roles. That might NOT bother the Trudeau wing of the Liberal Party because they are comfortable with a well left of centre policy base. But it will bother the so-called Manley Liberals, the social moderates and fiscal conservatives, who are already restless, _I think_. That could mean a serious split of the Liberal Party and that is something that might make most Liberals back away.



I always love your posts in these talks. 

The part I have quoted honestly scares me.  Not a formal Liberal-NDP coalition, but the knock on effects to our country.

And it's systematic of our broken seat distribution IMHO.

Western and Conservative alienation is growing. And the chunk of the popular vote they are winning is growing as well.  For the good of the country I think it would be best to let them form a minority Gov and let it live or die organically. 

If we have to go through a cycle of frequent elections until we can get a leader/majority gov the country can truly get behind, so be it.  From where I sit that's probably what's best for the country.  We need to work through this period of instability and division.

Just the musings of a bored hunter watching a sun rise


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## dimsum (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Western and Conservative alienation is growing.


Growing?  Has it ever stopped?  I think, like everything else, social media has just made it easier to reach a global audience whereas before, it'd have to be on the news.

I have family in the west.  Ever since I was born (and I'm not really young), they were complaining that "Ottawa doesn't care about AB/BC".


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## Weinie (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Just the musings of a *bored hunter* watching a sun rise


I was never bored while hunting, and I am incredibly jealous of you right now.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Weinie said:


> I was never bored while hunting, and I am incredibly jealous of you right now.



Maybe bored was the wrong word  

Sitting quietly.  Waiting.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Growing?  Has it ever stopped?  I think, like everything else, social media has just made it easier to reach a global audience whereas before, it'd have to be on the news.
> 
> I have family in the west.  Ever since I was born (and I'm not really young), they were complaining that "Ottawa doesn't care about AB/BC".



Ummmmm.  Sure, ok.


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## Weinie (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Maybe bored was the wrong word
> 
> Sitting quietly.  Waiting.


Good luck. Take a 12 pointer.


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## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I always love your posts in these talks.
> 
> The part I have quoted honestly scares me.  Not a formal Liberal-NDP coalition, but the knock on effects to our country.
> 
> ...


Yes, heaven forbid that the largest geographical region in Canada with all the good stuff in it should get a voice, that's just crazy talk!  Any of you people east of Kenora ever spend time out here? I don't mean surfing in Tofino, or skiing in Whistler, BC is just Ontario's rec room, but actually lowered yourself to live out here with us primitives? You might have a better appreciation of what we're talking about. "I'm not an Easternist! Why, I have a cousin who retired to Kelowna!" doesn't quite give you the picture. It's real.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Seen a really nice 8 and 4 traveling together. But I'm out with my .30 Carbine, so I want to keep my shots very short.

I'll send a pic of I get a good one!


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Yes, heaven forbid that the largest geographical region in Canada with all the good stuff in it should get a voice, that's just crazy talk!  Any of you people east of Kenora ever spend time out here? I don't mean surfing in Tofino, or skiing in Whistler, BC is just Ontario's rec room, but actually lowered yourself to live out here with us primitives? You might have a better appreciation of what we're talking about. "I'm not an Easternist! Why, I have a cousin who retired to Kelowna!" doesn't quite give you the picture. It's real.



I don't think any region should be allowed to dominate the country politically.


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## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't think any region should be allowed to dominate the country politically.


Tough to rationalize that when the election is won before the polls in Nanaimo are even open. I didn't say dominate, I said have a voice.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Tough to rationalize that when the election is won before the polls in Nanaimo are even open. I didn't say dominate, I said have a voice.



I understand where you're coming from. 

What I meant was I would like a redistribution of seats to take the power away from Central Canada and even the playing field.

I'm a fan of the American electoral college.

Also the Atlantic provinces are just the pregame show, while the west is the post game show.


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## FSTO (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Growing?  Has it ever stopped?  I think, like everything else, social media has just made it easier to reach a global audience whereas before, it'd have to be on the news.
> 
> I have family in the west.  Ever since I was born (and I'm not really young), they were complaining that "Ottawa doesn't care about AB/BC".


Thunder Bay and Winnipeg gets some love from the LPC from time to time but the rest of old Rupert’s Land and Oregon Territory? It’s only to be used for exploitation and demonization by the Family Compact and the Château Clique!


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## Retired AF Guy (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> In this situation the Liberals would, likely, still be allowed to form a government with explicit NDP support, but it might force Trudeau to accept a formal coalition with a few NDP ministers in key roles. That might NOT bother the Trudeau wing of the Liberal Party because they are comfortable with a well left of centre policy base. But it will bother the so-called Manley Liberals, the social moderates and fiscal conservatives, who are already restless, _I think_. That could mean a serious split of the Liberal Party and that is something that might make most Liberals back away.


 May be in the next election PP can used that as part of his platform?


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## dimsum (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Yes, heaven forbid that the largest geographical region in Canada with all the good stuff in it should get a voice, that's just crazy talk!  Any of you people east of Kenora ever spend time out here? I don't mean surfing in Tofino, or skiing in Whistler, BC is just Ontario's rec room, but actually lowered yourself to live out here with us primitives? You might have a better appreciation of what we're talking about. "I'm not an Easternist! Why, I have a cousin who retired to Kelowna!" doesn't quite give you the picture. It's real.


I spent just shy of 16 years posted in Vancouver Island, so I have an inkling of the sentiment out there.  

I've also heard similar complaints from the east too - PEI, NL, etc saying Ottawa doesn't listen to them.  

But, your comments actually made me look up the latest Statscan listing of population by province. These are all projections for Q3 2022 (millions):

Canada - 38.9 
ON + QC - 23.7
West (MB-BC) - 12.4

So yeah it sucks, but the truth is that ON+QC has double the population of the west.  So, is it weird that ON+QC would have an outsized voice in Canadian politics?  Or am I misinterpreting your comments?


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## Good2Golf (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Growing?  Has it ever stopped?  I think, like everything else, social media has just made it easier to reach a global audience whereas before, it'd have to be on the news.
> 
> I have family in the west.  Ever since I was born (and I'm not really young), they were complaining that "Ottawa doesn't care about AB/BC".


And SK and MB….

Hopefully voters don’t fall for JT’s electoral reform BS…


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## dimsum (30 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> And SK and MB….
> 
> Hopefully voters don’t fall for JT’s electoral reform BS…


Nobody cares about them.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> I spent just shy of 16 years posted in Vancouver Island, so I have an inkling of the sentiment out there.
> 
> I've also heard similar complaints from the east too - PEI, NL, etc saying Ottawa doesn't listen to them.
> 
> ...



I know you didn't address this to me.

I think the word weird you used is the wrong word.  I would say incorrect.


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## dimsum (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I know you didn't address this to me.
> 
> I think there word weird you used is the wrong word.  I would say incorrect.


Yeah, that's what I meant.  Thanks for the catch!


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## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> I spent just shy of 16 years posted in Vancouver Island, so I have an inkling of the sentiment out there.
> 
> I've also heard similar complaints from the east too - PEI, NL, etc saying Ottawa doesn't listen to them.
> 
> ...


This is too big a country to think we are just one big homogeneous mass of people. Someone in High Level AB isn't likely to have much sympathy with someone in Toronto who's toughest thing in their life was that Canada Post stopped dropping their mail in a slot in the door, since reversed as I understand it. People in Kingston give less than two fucks, polished side down, that oil and gas workers in Estevan, Ft Mac, or Fort St John have to decide between the mortgage payment or feeding their kids thanks to the decisions of your duly elected government. You lived on Vancouver Island, the leftest of all leftist enclaves, with a guaranteed pay cheque twice a month? How did you ever survive? I bet you have a friend that lives in Calgary too.


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## FSTO (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Nobody cares about them.


The provinces you’re from, not that you go to. 😑


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Yeah, that's what I meant.  Thanks for the catch!



And yes, to me, the seat distribution is incorrect.


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> This is too big a country to think we are just one big homogeneous mass of people. Someone in High Level AB isn't likely to have much sympathy with someone in Toronto who's toughest thing in their life was that Canada Post stopped dropping their mail in a slot in the door, since reversed as I understand it. People in Kingston give less than two fucks, polished side down, that oil and gas workers in Estevan, Ft Mac, or Fort St John have to decide between the mortgage payment or feeding their kids thanks to the decisions of your duly elected government. You lived on Vancouver Island with a guaranteed pay cheque twice a month? How did you ever survive? I bet you have a friend that lives in Calgary too.



Bingo. 

Population density should not equate to priority of representation.


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## FSTO (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Someone in High Level AB isn't likely to have much sympathy with someone in Toronto who's toughest thing in their life was that Canada Post stopped dropping their mail in a slot in the door, since reversed as I understand it.


Man, that really ground my gears when that twit Denis Coddere lost his mind over that. Most people outside of large cities NEVER had home mail delivery, even the shut ins.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Population density should not equate to priority of representation.


But isn't that democracy??


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## dimsum (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> This is too big a country to think we are just one big homogeneous mass of people. Someone in High Level AB isn't likely to have much sympathy with someone in Toronto who's toughest thing in their life was that Canada Post stopped dropping their mail in a slot in the door, since reversed as I understand it. People in Kingston give less than two fucks, polished side down, that oil and gas workers in Estevan, Ft Mac, or Fort St John have to decide between the mortgage payment or feeding their kids thanks to the decisions of your duly elected government. You lived on Vancouver Island with a guaranteed pay cheque twice a month? How did you ever survive? I bet you have a friend that lives in Calgary too.


Hold on - are you insinuating that just because I was working for DND in BC, I don't understand how western Canadians would feel that they're not being heard?  I can have empathy even though I'm not in that situation myself.  



Halifax Tar said:


> Population density should not equate to priority of representation.


Honest question to both of you then - if population isn't the metric, then what is?


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## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> But isn't that democracy??



I would argue Ont and Que dictating to the country is not very democratic. 



dimsum said:


> Hold on - are you insinuating that just because I was working for DND in BC, I don't understand how western Canadians would feel that they're not being heard?  I can have empathy even though I'm not in that situation myself.
> 
> 
> Honest question to both of you then - if population isn't the metric, then what is?



I've discussed this before on here.  I would divided the country into regions and spread the seats in the HOC as evenly as possible across the country. 

Right now our politicians can ignore issues that don't lay in vote rich territory, and that's wrong. And they can ignore the wishes of vote poor territories, and that's wrong. 

I repeat, population density should not equate to priority of representation.  

It's a pipe dream, I know.


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## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Hold on - are you insinuating that just because I was working for DND in BC, I don't understand how western Canadians would feel that they're not being heard?  I can have empathy even though I'm not in that situation myself.
> 
> 
> Honest question to both of you then - if population isn't the metric, then what is?


I'm not insinuating anything. I'm saying you lived in a place that has more in common with Peterborough than Ponoka.
   Easy. You let AB, SK, MB go, give us the northern half of BC, coastline included. we give you a ten mile wide corridor along the southern border so your surfing and skiing can continue. You enjoy your socialist workers paradise and we get back to the business of earning money.


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## GR66 (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I would argue Ont and Que dictating to the country is not very democratic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What you seem to be describing is an elected and effective Senate.


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## FSTO (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Honest question to both of you then - if population isn't the metric, then what is?


Rep by population - HoC
Rep by area - Senate

The problem is that the Senate is appointed and doesn’t have credibility in the eyes of many. Hence the cry of  “Triple E” Senate to make it relevant. 
That would cut into the power of the HoC and therefore will never see the light of day.


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## dimsum (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I'm not insinuating anything. I'm saying you lived in a place that has more in common with Peterborough than Ponoka.
> Easy. You let AB, SK, MB go, give us the northern half of BC, coastline included. we give you a ten mile wide corridor along the southern border so your surfing and skiing can continue. You enjoy your socialist workers paradise and we get back to the business of earning money.


I mean if you're talking Wexit, I don't see the reason for the 10-mile buffer.  Folks from ON aren't driving to BC to ski/surf.

I also think Wexit will turn out about as good as Brexit is going, but that's a discussion for another thread.


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## Jarnhamar (30 Oct 2022)

In 2015 the LPC were able to capitalize on the image of a drowned 2 year old Syrian boy and haven't looked back since.

I'm not sure if the party is in decline or not but they sure as hell did a great job poisoning the well.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I would argue Ont and Que dictating to the country is not very democratic.



So if we divide Ont and Que into 7 more little provinces you're satisfied?


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## mariomike (30 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> Most people outside of large cities NEVER had home mail delivery, even the shut ins.



Coupons in the mail are one thing.

Some people on our street are still reeling over having to wheel their garbage to the end of the driveway.  

Instead of having it picked up around back, like they used to.


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## daftandbarmy (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> I mean if you're talking Wexit, I don't see the reason for the 10-mile buffer.  Folks from ON aren't driving to BC to ski/surf.
> 
> I also think Wexit will turn out about as good as Brexit is going, but that's a discussion for another thread.



Luckily the Western provinces can't agree on anything, sometimes in a spectacular fashion, so the divide and rule principle that underpins Canada's Confederation should ensure that we remain whole for the foreseeable future 

Viz:

Alberta enacted Bill 12, dubbed the “turn off the taps act” in May, after it was passed by the previous provincial government in retaliation for British Columbia opposing the expansion of the Trans Mountain oil pipeline.









						Court blocks Alberta law curbing energy flows to British Columbia
					

A Canadian court on Tuesday temporarily blocked legislation enabling the province of Alberta to restrict oil and gas flows to British Columbia, leaving the constitutionality of the measure to be decided at a later trial.




					www.reuters.com


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## Brad Sallows (30 Oct 2022)

BC is a bit like California; there are noticeable political differences between people along the coast and people in the interior.  In assessing "the West", coastal BC'ers don't fit.  (Vancouver Islanders are so far out of tune that they think it reasonable to impose their environmental preferences on the entire province, while demanding the entire body of provincial taxpayers help to subsidize ferry service.)  But even if the West is only 20 to 25% of total population, that's large enough to require collective dissatisfaction to be satisfactorily addressed by the dominant faction, which means it's also large enough that deliberate antagonism ought be avoided.


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## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> I mean if you're talking Wexit, I don't see the reason for the 10-mile buffer.  Folks from ON aren't driving to BC to ski/surf.
> 
> I also think Wexit will turn out about as good as Brexit is going, but that's a discussion for another thread.


Northern half of BC includes an all year, deep water port, from which to ship all our nasty natural resources that you folks don't need or want as long as that stalwart of human rights and environmental concern that is the Most Noble House of Saud keeps selling it to you. Fine, we'll keep our ten miles, makes it easier to drive to Vegas to spend all our filthy oil money. And wheat money. And Canola money. And potash money. And...


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## Remius (30 Oct 2022)

Just add a popular vote % factor to the current system and let parties assign what they get as they see fit or as equally as possible between regions.


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## Fishbone Jones (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I would argue Ont and Que dictating to the country is not very democratic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Almost half the population lives in Ontario. Do you expect them to be represented by the same amount of votes as PEI? PEI has a population of 170,688. Ontario has a population of 15,007,816. How do you ensure fair representation if both PEI and Ontario have, say, six votes each?


----------



## Good2Golf (30 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Just add a popular vote % factor to the current system and let parties assign what they get as they see fit or as equally as possible between regions.


Like was implied in PMJT’s 2915 electoral reform promise, then….well….2016, 2017, 2018….etc.

#itsoktolie


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Oct 2022)

I doubt there are any small solutions which would work.  Our intractable problem is that our executive and legislative design is ill-suited to a geographically large country with highly concentrated pockets of voters.  All the political power of the victorious plurality rolls downhill into the PMO after every election.  If we had written stuff down to prevent that, then we wouldn't be here.  But not everything was written down, and customary practice is a weak pillar.

At minimum, we'd essentially have to restructure to be like the US, and the language defining the limits of federal responsibility would have to be even plainer and stronger than theirs.  There can't be any wiggle room, because over time the wiggles gradually expand.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't think any region should be allowed to dominate the country politically.


As long as we want too retain a Westminster type of Parliamentary Democracy where people are represented in defined constituencies on a roughly equitable "rep by pop" basis then ON and QC will "dominate the country politically," because:


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I would argue Ont and Que dictating to the country is not very democratic


But Ontario and Quebec dont vote the same representation in


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> As long as we want too retain a Westminster type of Parliamentary Democracy where people are represented in defined constituencies on a roughly equitable "rep by pop" basis then ON and QC will "dominate the country politically," because:
> 
> View attachment 74539View attachment 74540


Huh, I never realized it before, but apparently The Hunger Games was a documentary.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

GR66 said:


> What you seem to be describing is an elected and effective Senate.



Perhaps.



Bruce Monkhouse said:


> So if we divide Ont and Que into 7 more little provinces you're satisfied?



Thats not what I said.  All I am saying is redistributing the seats in the HOC. All provinces maintain their current existence. I'm simply using geography.

*84 Seats Atlantic Region:*
NFLD
PEI
NB
NS

**86 Seats Central Region:*
Ont
Que

*84 Seats Prairie/Pacific Region:*
Man
Sask
AB
BC

*84 Seats Norther Region:*
Yuk
NWT
Nun

*I'm giving the decimal points to Central for population.  And this should be reviewed every electoral cycle.

The regions have no office or individual representation they are just dividing lines on a map.

Those 84/86 seats are divided withing the individual regions.



Remius said:


> Just add a popular vote % factor to the current system and let parties assign what they get as they see fit or as equally as possible between regions.



Not a bad idea.  Sort of Proportional Representation ?



Fishbone Jones said:


> Almost half the population lives in Ontario. Do you expect them to be represented by the same amount of votes as PEI? PEI has a population of 170,688. Ontario has a population of 15,007,816. How do you ensure fair representation if both PEI and Ontario have, say, six votes each?



See above post.  This empowers all regions.



Edward Campbell said:


> As long as we want too retain a Westminster type of Parliamentary Democracy where people are represented in defined constituencies on a roughly equitable "rep by pop" basis then ON and QC will "dominate the country politically," because:
> 
> View attachment 74539View attachment 74540



Maybe its time to change or mod what we have ?  Remember "This will be the last FPTP election" ?



suffolkowner said:


> But Ontario and Quebec dont vote the same representation in



See above post.  This empowers all regions.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Northern half of BC includes an all year, deep water port, from which to ship all our nasty natural resources that you folks don't need or want as long as that stalwart of human rights and environmental concern that is the Most Noble House of Saud keeps selling it to you. Fine, we'll keep our ten miles, makes it easier to drive to Vegas to spend all our filthy oil money. And wheat money. And Canola money. And potash money. And...



Why do you keep saying "you folks"?
I want your energy, I want your canola, I want your potash.

Your anger is so misdirected its criminal.  You're talking about a populace who think we should only get meat from a store so we can stop killing animals for it.

Tell the Prarie govts to do some media work instead of just getting elected at home by feeding your anger.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seem like you are just trying to recreate the Senate in the HofC. Rural areas are already over represented in the HofC


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Oct 2022)

Part of the reason Canada is in a pickle is that our big shifts happen when people are in a hurry (1867, 1982) and the results are inevitably inflected by the politics of the moment.  Any formulas proposed for reform can't merely work for now; they have to work for all kinds of possible future distributions of people around the country.

A separately elected executive shouldn't be a hard lift, but the universe will either reach maximum entropy or collapse back to a singularity before Canadians could come to agreement on a triple-E senate, given the starting position of a country that contains Ontario and PEI.  The fruitful ground for reform mostly lies in redefining the powers the federal government has, not redefining how it is composed.  The more the power to interfere is limited, the less the squabble over how it is won matters.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> It seem like you are just trying to recreate the Senate in the HofC. Rural areas are already over represented in the HofC



I would argue urban areas are just as over represented.  And ridiculously skew national issues in their favor. 

So, even things out.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Why do you keep saying "you folks"?
> I want your energy, I want your canola, I want your potash.
> 
> Your anger is so misdirected its criminal.  You're talking about a populace who think we should only get meat from a store so we can stop killing animals for it.
> ...


I guess by "you folks" I mean the apathetic fucks who keep electing a government that has open, virulent contempt for the portion of the country that would gladly keep them warm and fed if they'd only let us. Also, the equally culpable assholes who's only knowledge of the west comes from CBC, CTV and Global, who feed them a steady diet of how awful we all are out here. Criminal?? Gimme a fucking break man...


----------



## YZT580 (30 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> Rep by population - HoC
> Rep by area - Senate
> 
> The problem is that the Senate is appointed and doesn’t have credibility in the eyes of many. Hence the cry of  “Triple E” Senate to make it relevant.
> That would cut into the power of the HoC and therefore will never see the light of day.


and the senate terms are 6 years so they overlap the commons:


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> . Also, the equally culpable assholes who's only knowledge of the west comes from CBC, CTV and Global, who feed them a steady diet of how awful we all are out here.


Thank you for confirming my post...


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I would argue urban areas are just as over represented.  And ridiculously skew national issues in their favor.
> 
> So, even things out.


How do?  Urban areas have population.

Your model gives two thirds of Canadians one quarter of representation.

Indeed, if you look at the population per riding, urban areas are generally under represented in the HoC, with more people in urban ridings than in rural


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I guess by "you folks" I mean the apathetic fucks who keep electing a government that has open, virulent contempt for the portion of the country that would gladly keep them warm and fed if they'd only let us. Also, the equally culpable assholes who's only knowledge of the west comes from CBC, CTV and Global, who feed them a steady diet of how awful we all are out here. Criminal?? Gimme a fucking break man...


I dont think that this is an accurate reflection of voting intentions in the non west of Canada


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Thank you for confirming my post...


Happy to help


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> Rep by population - HoC
> Rep by area - Senate
> 
> The problem is that the Senate is appointed and doesn’t have credibility in the eyes of many. Hence the cry of  “Triple E” Senate to make it relevant.
> That would cut into the power of the HoC and therefore will never see the light of day.


I would prefer a more active Senate as well but it is difficult to know how to get there. They have all the power they require but not the moral authority in the eyes of the public or themselves to use it. At present they are a break glass in case of emergency check on the HofC which is ok too


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> How do?  Urban areas have population.
> 
> Your model gives two thirds of Canadians one quarter of representation.
> 
> Indeed, if you look at the population per riding, urban areas are generally under represented in the HoC, with more people in urban ridings than in rural



As I see it, because we have equated volume of person with priority of issue. 

I talking about making things equal.  The problems in Corner Brook NFLD or Medicine Hat Alberta are no less important to this country than those in Toronto or Montreal.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> Rep by population - HoC
> Rep by area - Senate
> 
> The problem is that the Senate is appointed and doesn’t have credibility in the eyes of many. Hence the cry of  “Triple E” Senate to make it relevant.
> That would cut into the power of the HoC and therefore will never see the light of day.



How about: 

PRep - HOC
Rep by area (elected on a fix term) - Senate


----------



## Remius (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> How about:
> 
> PRep - HOC
> Rep by area (elected on a fix term) - Senate


I would make the senate proportional rep by popular vote by region with term limits. Make it more relevant.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> I would make the senate proportional rep by popular vote by region with term limits. Make it more relevant.



That would create some interesting dynamics.  I like the cut of your jib. 

Make the monkeys fight.


----------



## Remius (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> That would create some interesting dynamics.  I like the cut of your jib.
> 
> Make the monkeys fight.


Or compromise.  Either way it could bring a bit more balance to the system. 

It would not really solve the provincial issues though, things like blocking pipelines and such.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> ...
> Thats not what I said.  All I am saying is redistributing the seats in the HOC. All provinces maintain their current existence. I'm simply using geography.
> 
> *84 Seats Atlantic Region:*
> ...



So, all notions of equality - you know that principle we've been fighting for for about 1,000 years - are to be tossed on the rubbish heap of history because people don't want to live in Atlantic Canada, is that right?

People in Nunavut should get enormous political power because they live in a vast, frozen wasteland and the 35% of the people who produce 40% of Canada's wealth get about 15% of the political representation ... does that sound fair to you?

I think someone else said it - you're proposing that we make the Senate the model for the House of Commons.

I understand - I was raised in the West - that a lot of people are upset by the notion of representation by population, by the notion of equality. Maybe, while we're at it, we should take the right to vote away from women and indigenous people and those who don't pay property taxes. Yeah, 1264 was a really great year.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Thank you for confirming my post...


Allow me to get to the meat of the topic this devolved into. Western anger and alienation.  If ANY of you have lived out here and made your living in an industry that *our *(lol) government has done all but declare outright war on, ie oil and gas, and now going after the farmers too, and don't understand the very real anger, I can't help you. A four year posting to Edmonton, Dundurn, or god help me, Comox, with a rock solid guaranteed income in your pocket doesn't equip you to get it. I understand why all those people think it's just whining, having never lived it. Sucks to be a westerner, I guess.  Maybe the best thing is to split the sheets so we can start calling Winnipeg "back east". We really aren't feeling like part of the family out here.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> As I see it, because we have equated volume of person with priority of issue.
> 
> I talking about making things equal.  The problems in Corner Brook NFLD or Medicine Hat Alberta are no less important to this country than those in Toronto or Montreal.


I understand where you are coming from as there is something inherently wrong with 80% of the people in 20% of the country dictating to 20% of the people in 80% of the country but any proposal i have seen appears to be even more unfair. It is also why the Federal and Provincial governments exist and have their areas of responsibility. Whether those areas are distributed correctly for our time is another question.

On the Senate Ive often though we should just pick people off the voter rolls and appoint them. 6 yr terms pensioned off with one third coming in every 2 yrs. An experiment for sure


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Allow me to get to the meat of the topic this devolved into. Western anger and alienation.  If ANY of you have lived out here and made your living in an industry that *our *(lol) government has done all but declare outright war on, ie oil and gas, and now going after the farmers too, and don't understand the very real anger, I can't help you. A four year posting to Edmonton, Dundurn, or god help me, Comox, with a rock solid guaranteed income in your pocket doesn't equip you to get it. I understand why all those people think it's just whining, having never lived it. Sucks to be a westerner, I guess.  Maybe the best thing is to split the sheets so we can start calling Winnipeg "back east". We really aren't feeling like part of the family out here.


You do know there is oil and gas and farmers outside Alberta right?

I've seen hundreds of acres of very productive fruit belt land turned into townhouses for the GTA, and the remaining farmers struggling to keep their heads above water. Similarly there are about 100,000 manufacturing jobs gone from my hometown of Hamilton, and many tens of thousands more along the corridor. A lot of that is provincial/local, but definitely a federal component there to neglecting the self-sustaining part of national security.

The urban/rural & blue/white collar divide drives down to the micro level, and the feds seems to be the convenient spot in a lot of cases to shift the blame upwards to an even more faceless entity.

Definitely federal failings, but a reasonable amount of blame should land on the provincial side as well.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Allow me to get to the meat of the topic this devolved into. Western anger and alienation.  If ANY of you have lived out here and made your living in an industry that *our *(lol) government has done all but declare outright war on, ie oil and gas, and now going after the farmers too, and don't understand the very real anger, I can't help you. A four year posting to Edmonton, Dundurn, or god help me, Comox, with a rock solid guaranteed income in your pocket doesn't equip you to get it. I understand why all those people think it's just whining, having never lived it. Sucks to be a westerner, I guess.  Maybe the best thing is to split the sheets so we can start calling Winnipeg "back east". We really aren't feeling like part of the family out here.



Or I could say get your Govt off it's ass and start actually fighting for all these things instead of whining and sniveling to keep you mad and voting as they wish.

Also curious, what makes "your" farmers more important then "our" farmers?  You don't think k "ours" have the same issues?  Please explain...

And I'd love for your oil to fow here....maybe we could get some jobs also.  Or is just "The West" allowed to hurt??


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Or I could say get your Govt off it's ass and start actually fighting for all these things instead of whining and sniveling to keep you mad and voting as they wish.
> 
> Also curious, what makes "your" farmers more important then "our" farmers?  You don't think k "ours" have the same issues?  Please explain...
> 
> And I'd love for your oil to fow here....maybe we could get some jobs also.  Or is just "The West" allowed to hurt??


Fuck me. Never mind.


----------



## Remius (30 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> You do know there is oil and gas and farmers outside Alberta right?
> 
> I've seen hundreds of acres of very productive fruit belt land turned into townhouses for the GTA, and the remaining farmers struggling to keep their heads above water. Similarly there are about 100,000 manufacturing jobs gone from my hometown of Hamilton, and many tens of thousands more along the corridor. A lot of that is provincial/local, but definitely a federal component there to neglecting the self-sustaining part of national security.
> 
> ...


Was in Oshawa not too long ago.  Was pretty depressing.  Same with the Welland area.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> *(1)* So, all notions of equality - you know that principle we've been fighting for for about 1,000 years - are to be tossed on the rubbish heap of history because people don't want to live in Atlantic Canada, is that right?
> 
> *(2)* People in Nunavut should get enormous political power because they live in a vast, frozen wasteland and the 35% of the people who produce 40% of Canada's wealth get about 15% of the political representation ... does that sound fair to you?
> 
> ...



*(1)  *I am not an Atlantic Canadian, I am a proud Ontarian who currently resides, and will probably die in Atlantic Canada, please do not equate me with these sea insect eating savages  

My attempt is to empower regions and make them all equally politically important.  Right now, they are not. 

*(2)*  The North is an excellent example.  Its an area of massive potential wealth and international importance.  And It needs more of a voice in demanding attention. 

I think your 35% of the people should get the same power to promote their regions issues as Nunavut, yes.  Your "Golden Horseshoe" folks are no more important to Canada than Johnny 2x2 in Resolute Bay. 

*(3)*  You're being unusually disingenuous here EC.  And you're now suggesting that I think we should take away whack of our civil rights away ?  This is highly disappointing from you. 

Again, all I am trying to do is give every Canadian region and equal play in our confederation.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> You do know there is oil and gas and farmers outside Alberta right?
> 
> I've seen hundreds of acres of very productive fruit belt land turned into townhouses for the GTA, and the remaining farmers struggling to keep their heads above water. Similarly there are about 100,000 manufacturing jobs gone from my hometown of Hamilton, and many tens of thousands more along the corridor. A lot of that is provincial/local, but definitely a federal component there to neglecting the self-sustaining part of national security.
> 
> ...


Did I say “Alberta” or did I say “Western”? Western anger, not just Albertan.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Was in Oshawa not too long ago.  Was pretty depressing.  Same with the Welland area.



I had family in the auto industry there.  Its very sad what's happened that town. 

I would love to see Canada create our own brand of E Cars and Trucks.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I* fear* you are right, but it may to be quite as bad as that.
> 
> First, a lot of the NDP vote went Liberal in 2015 and it stayed there:
> 
> ...



At the risk of sounding all conspiratorial and such I find myself thinking that there are forces in operation that are not captured by conventional politics.

The first issue is the ancient one of money - and who controls it.  Since Richard Nixon in 1973 or possibly since Bretton Woods money has been what the US said it was.  Stocks, Bonds, Gold, Oil and Wheat all reacted to the US economy.   I can't help but wonder if Biden's policies have busted the trust - however you choose to think of that word.

Covid and Ukraine have put paid to a lot of long term trends that the planners were counting on.   

Trump, Brexit, Johnson and Truss, and even Corbyn have frightened and angered the planners of Wall Street and the City.  They have been terrified (is that too strong a word?) by Canadian Truckers, Kiwis and Aussies rebelling against lockdowns, Dutch Farmers and the Jacksonian Republicans.  

I feel - and I know that isn't proof - I feel that in the west there is a fight going on between those forces chucked into the populist categories and the forces of the planners, the City, Wall Street, the State Department and the EU - dare I say the capitalists?

But this is no longer an old fashioned Marxist struggle.  The old classes no longer apply.  The old parties no longer apply.  All governments have elements of all factions within their mix.   We can't talk about hard lines separating parties.   We can only talk about net tendencies.   The rainbow may not be a bad analogy.  Kids draw rainbows in primary colours but a real rainbow is the full spectrum, literally.  You can find blue in the spectrum but you can't tell where it begins and where it ends.  Likewise with red and yellow. Likewise with the secondary colours of orange, green and violet.  And all the invisible "colours".

We continue to focus on that which we know, with which we are familiar and ignore the unseen.

One of the "unseens", I think, could be that 18 to 34 demographic.  I'm going to call them the Starbucks generation.  They do not fit into the standard party matrix.  They are looking to be politically engaged.  They are looking for someone to stand up and represent them.  They have been let down by the existing institutions dominated by boomers who grew up in a world the youngsters don't recognize.  No more than we recognize the world of WWI and the Great Depression.  They know of it but they don't know it.  They don't know the hopes and fears of the boomers.   They just know that they have their own hopes and fears.   And they aren't the same.

They have chased after Bernie and been disappointed.   They have chased after Trump and Johnson and Corbyn and been disappointed.  Trudeau and Ardern had their own fan clubs - apparently heavily influenced by boomer factions but tied into the Establishment - the capitalists.

Those youngsters are not blue collar unionists.  They are not establishmentarians.  They are not particularly libertine or libertarian.  They have no institutions they trust in.  They trust to their own luck and in large part they trust in their own generation that they have come to know on-line.  They share the same hopes and fears regardless of borders.

I think that Poilievre appeals to a large portion of those youngsters.  They are aspirational.  They are capitalists in the sense that they all know the value of a dollar and a bitcoin and want more of them.  They are liberal in the classic sense.  Socially you could define them in "laissez-faire" terms.  Live and let live.  They aspire to a home and a family of their own they just can't figure out how to get there on MacDonald's wages and delivering pizzas and Amazon packages.

Where am I going with this?

Blue collar unionists are a spent force in the private sector.  They don't exist.
Public sector unionists are a creature of the Establishment, along with the Civil Service, Academia, the Media and the Parties.
Churches are no more.  The Church has split so many times, Unitarian, Trinitarian, Orthodox, Catholic, Roman, Coptic, Protestant, Lutheran, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, Mormon, Mennonite, Quakers......Deists, Non-Subscribing, Free Thinkers, Agnostics, Agnostics..... Individuals seeking their own way.   Protestant countries have become Agnostic countries.
Civic organizations have morphed from Masons, Elks, Rotarians, Lions and Knights of Columbus, through NGOs like Medecins Sans Frontiers to virtual on-line organizations that can accomplish things like this


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/xoojsk


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ygrpw4




Summing up - Governments, as always, are at heart of power struggles.   Parties, as institutions represented the keys to power.   There is an Establishment that has successfully co-opted those institutions to the benefit of the Establishment.   That Establishment, as happens from time to time, loses touch with its environment as success breeds complacency and it turns inwards and creates its own bubble.  Eventually though, the external environment notices and starts doing its own thing.  The Establishment is left playing catch up.

My sense is that this is one of those moments.

Freeland and Biden and Sunak could be representative of the Establishment trying to adjust their familiar institutions to play catch up.

Trudeau is a busted flush.  Singh is window dressing.  

Poilievre, Trump, DeSantis, Truss, Johnson, Zelensky are disruptors.  

This puts them at odds with the entire Liberal Order of Wall Street, The City, the EU, The State Department.


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Again, all I am trying to do is give every Canadian region and equal play in our confederation.



Then you 'don't get' Confederation.

A tiny bit of background as to why we will never be 'equal' Provinces in Canada:






						Confederation
					

Confederation refers to the process of federal union in which the British North American colonies of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and the Province of Canada joine...




					www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Did I say “Alberta” or did I say “Western”? Western anger, not just Albertan.



No, you got that right first time around.

Most people in BC aren't angry. It's mainly just the noisiest ones


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Oct 2022)

The heart of the problem/grievance is populations in urban centres effectively controlling policy that affects populations elsewhere.

Possible solutions:
1. Redistribute representation.
2. Shorten the reach of voters (limit government power/authority).

(2) has the advantage of not requiring severe imbalances in the worth of one vote.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> *(1)  *I am not an Atlantic Canadian, I am a proud Ontarian who currently resides, and will probably die in Atlantic Canada, please do not equate me with these sea insect eating savages
> 
> My attempt is to empower regions and make them all equally politically important.  Right now, they are not.
> 
> ...


OK ... disingenuous ... hmmm.

I'm looking at the the last 750+ years of social and political history and saying that they matter a whole helluva lot more than Canada';s petty political problems.

-----

Off topic, but ...

I'm not sure that Canada can exist, as a coherent political nation-state for another 50 years, much less another 150. I'm not so sure that we, Canadians - 60±% of us, anyway, are sufficiently politically mature to have a country of our own.

I'm also slightly worried about whether or not the USA has the national will to remain united.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> No, you got that right first time around.
> 
> Most people in BC aren't angry. It's mainly just the noisiest ones


They've got nothing to be angry about, at least in the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island, they're good little comrades in the Great Struggle. BC isn't the west, it just got drawn on the wrong side of the map.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I* fear* you are right, but it may to be quite as bad as that.
> 
> First, a lot of the NDP vote went Liberal in 2015 and it stayed there:
> 
> ...



I think with respect to the NDP-Liberal vote it is more that the Liberal vote went NDP in 2011 in protest and has since reverted to its "natural" home


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Oct 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The heart of the problem/grievance is populations in urban centres effectively controlling policy that affects populations elsewhere.
> 
> Possible solutions:
> 1. Redistribute representation.
> ...


I can't resist quoting Lao Tzu


----------



## daftandbarmy (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> They've got nothing to be angry about, at least in the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island, they're good little comrades in the Great Struggle.



And paradoxically, just like any other spoiled brat, we BC folks are statistically the least happy 









						The happiest provinces in Canada in 2022 were revealed, according to StatCan
					

Canadians generally reported a higher level of life satisfaction in early 2022 compared to the previous year, as shown in recent survey data from Statistics Canada.




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## mariomike (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> I can't resist quoting Lao Tzu





> One of these days the people are going to get good government - and they aren't going to like it.



Huey Long


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> OK ... disingenuous ... hmmm.
> 
> I'm looking at the the last 750+ years of social and political history and saying that they matter a whole helluva lot more than Canada';s petty political problems.
> 
> ...


My interpretation was you were being accusatory. 

I have stated elsewhere I don't expect Canada to out live my 9 year old daughter. 

And the better portion of the blame for that could be laid squarely at the feet of Ont and Que.


----------



## FSTO (30 Oct 2022)

Does everyone know which level of government has the most influence on your day to day lives? 
Municipal 

Know which level of government that everyone bitches the most about?
Municipal

Know which level of government that people are less and less willing to get off their ass and vote or put their names up to run for council?
Municipal


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> Does everyone know which level of government has the most influence on your day to day lives?
> Municipal
> 
> Know which level of government that everyone bitches the most about?
> ...


one of the many problems I've had with municipal elections is the paucity of information on the candidates. It can be almost impossible to find out what their positions are. You have to reach out an email them directly and often receive generalised crap in return


----------



## mariomike (30 Oct 2022)

No party politics in municipal.  

No Liberal / Conservative way to fix a sewer.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> I spent just shy of 16 years posted in Vancouver Island, so I have an inkling of the sentiment out there.
> 
> I've also heard similar complaints from the east too - PEI, NL, etc saying Ottawa doesn't listen to them.
> 
> ...



Not weird - but it does make the case for federalism, regional representation, local autonomy and the value of institutions like the senate and the US Electoral College that are not majoritarian.


----------



## Remius (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I had family in the auto industry there.  Its very sad what's happened that town.
> 
> I would love to see Canada create our own brand of E Cars and Trucks.


I was referring to the many Leafs fans….

Kidding.  

It’s a sad state in those areas.  And yes.  I think Ford has the right idea in trying to harness the manufacturing power Ontario still has.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

dimsum said:


> Honest question to both of you then - if population isn't the metric, then what is?



Population is one metric.   

The priority of the Federal Government is "Peace, Order and Good Governance".   Problem resolution is supposed to be their forte.  Sometimes democratic means lead to resolution.  Sometimes they result in more problems.

That's why we pay Government the big bucks.   To decide when and how to do what is necessary to maintain "Peace, Order and Good Governance".

We use democratic means selectively, occasionally, to elect some individuals to maintain "Peace, Order and Good Governance".


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> So if we divide Ont and Que into 7 more little provinces you're satisfied?


Actually I kind of like that.  It might even gain some traction in Ontario and Quebec.  Divide by Area Codes.



Interesting if the country were politically divided into those zones.....


----------



## brihard (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> Thats not what I said.  All I am saying is redistributing the seats in the HOC. All provinces maintain their current existence. I'm simply using geography.
> 
> ...



This is absurd.

You’re dividing seats evenly for:
23 million Canadians in ON and QC;
12 million Canadians in BC, AB, SK, MB;
2.4 million Canadians in NB, NS, Nfld, PEI, and;
125 thousand Canadians in YT, NWT, NU.

It sounds like what you really want is an effective senate. The hard reality is that the prairies are already over represented in parliament by MPs per capita. Don’t expect that to swing further in favour of rural ridings.

If Alberta wants more seats in Parliament, it can leverage its wealth - which it very much still has - to attract more people to live there. More population will mean more seats.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Luckily the Western provinces can't agree on anything, sometimes in a spectacular fashion, so the divide and rule principle that underpins Canada's Confederation should ensure that we remain whole for the foreseeable future
> 
> Viz:
> 
> ...



But it didn't block the BC and Federal laws turning off the taps that allowed Alberta and Saskatchewan to export internationally across BC.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Just add a popular vote % factor to the current system and let parties assign what they get as they see fit or as equally as possible between regions.



Get knotted.   

The last thing we need is Parties deciding who my representative is going to be.  My representative then becomes my Gauleiter.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> So, all notions of equality - you know that principle we've been fighting for for about 1,000 years - are to be tossed on the rubbish heap of history because people don't want to live in Atlantic Canada, is that right?
> 
> People in Nunavut should get enormous political power because they live in a vast, frozen wasteland and the 35% of the people who produce 40% of Canada's wealth get about 15% of the political representation ... does that sound fair to you?
> 
> ...



We are not one country.  We are what, a dozen tiny city-states with hinterlands?  That are represented internationally by one government.  What is so wrong with each city-state doing things in the manner that best pleases them?  We manage to allow other countries to do things their own way while trading and travelling.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Then you 'don't get' Confederation.
> 
> A tiny bit of background as to why we will never be 'equal' Provinces in Canada:
> 
> ...


1864 were a long time back...


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> OK ... disingenuous ... hmmm.
> 
> I'm looking at the the last 750+ years of social and political history and saying that they matter a whole helluva lot more than Canada';s petty political problems.
> 
> ...




One big problem I see with that map.  None of the urban centres selected have anything in common with any of the hinterlands described.   The Urban-Rural problem would still exist.  

Atlanta doesn't represent Dixie.  Detroit doesn't represent the Foundry.  Etc.  The cities vote blue.  The hinterlands vote red.  Except in Canada where the colour scheme is reversed - because we are Canadians.


----------



## RedFive (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> They've got nothing to be angry about, at least in the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island, they're good little comrades in the Great Struggle. BC isn't the west, it just got drawn on the wrong side of the map.


So you're complaining at length about how the east doesn't understand the struggles of the west, and then you come out with a broad stroke brush and label all of BC as a homogenous block that also somehow hates the prairies and should be next to Ontario on the map.

Your lack of understanding of the province of BC in pretty obvious at this point. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


----------



## Remius (30 Oct 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Get knotted.
> 
> The last thing we need is Parties deciding who my representative is going to be.  My representative then becomes my Gauleiter.


They already decide that btw lol.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> They already decide that btw lol.


Not wrong - which brings us back to Kat's anger.


----------



## CBH99 (30 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> You can't have your cake and eat it too.


Not to detract from any of the posts in this thread, but I’ve never understood this saying.  

Even as a child, when I would hear it, I’d always ask “What’s the point in having cake if we aren’t allowed to eat it?”


Nobody has ever explained to me what this saying actually means.  🧐🤨


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> No party politics in municipal.
> 
> No Liberal / Conservative way to fix a sewer.


I might argue that a Conservative would contract it out and a Liberal would do it in house


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> So you're complaining at length about how the east doesn't understand the struggles of the west, and then you come out with a broad stroke brush and label all of BC as a homogenous block that also somehow hates the prairies and should be next to Ontario on the map.
> 
> Your lack of understanding of the province of BC in pretty obvious at this point. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


Yes, that's exactly what I said. What? Waaaaiit a minute... You must have missed this part..."at least in the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island". I was raised on the Sunshine Coast. All my family except me stayed within a three mile radius of the house we grew up in. My siblings are both classical big money socialists. I've lived it first hand, not like the people I'm trying, and abjectly failing, to address here.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> Not wrong - which brings us back to Kat's anger.


It's not necessarily my anger, I'm doing okay. I'm trying to give it some clarity, but cratering hard. The last thing I want is the country I gave 23 years of my life to falling apart, but that's where we're headed. Never mind, let us eat cake. Apparently, we like cake.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> It's not necessarily my anger, I'm doing okay. I'm trying to give it some clarity, but cratering hard.


well for one thing there is no Ontario vote or Quebec vote. Each riding is independent the area where I am has basically been Conservative since Confederation. I remain of the opinion that there is a greater urban/rural divide than interprovincial. This comes from someone who thinks Toronto starts at Hwy 9 and thinks I should be able to have a shotgun or rifle on me when on horseback and is irritated that newcomers come up and complain about cows mooing and the smell of manure


----------



## RedFive (30 Oct 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Not to detract from any of the posts in this thread, but I’ve never understood this saying.
> 
> Even as a child, when I would hear it, I’d always ask “What’s the point in having cake if we aren’t allowed to eat it?”
> 
> ...



You can't eat the cake and still have more cake to eat, is how I've always understood it.



Kat Stevens said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I said. What? Waaaaiit a minute... You must have missed this part..."at least in the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island". I was raised on the Sunshine Coast. All my family except me stayed within a three mile radius of the house we grew up in. My siblings are both classical big money socialists. I've lived it first hand, not like the people I'm trying, and abjectly failing, to address here.





Kat Stevens said:


> BC isn't the west, it just got drawn on the wrong side of the map.



I didn't miss it, I'm focused on the statement that came after.

I agree with you for the record. I hate the fact the election is over before I even cast my vote. I hate the fact that the interests of the west in general and the prairies specifically are often ignored in order to please the voters who put the government in Ottawa. My family is from the prairies, and most still reside there.

But you can't in the same breath accuse "the east" of not understanding then turn around and dismiss an entire province as misplaced on the map and also against the interests of the prairies. Yes, BC is run by idiots. But there's a lot of people here who don't fit your broad brush strokes, which it seems like you know.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> This is absurd.
> 
> You’re dividing seats evenly for:
> 23 million Canadians in ON and QC;
> ...



What's absurd is this:



suffolkowner said:


> there is something inherently wrong with 80% of the people in 20% of the country dictating to 20% of the people in 80% of the country



Equal representation, regardless of population density, will bring parity for all regions and force politicians to work for all and compromise. 

Again, for example, Ontario's problems shouldnt hold more political value, because they happen to have a high population density.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> No party politics in municipal.
> 
> No Liberal / Conservative way to fix a sewer.



Come to NS, party politics is definitely involved in municipal politics.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

RedFive said:


> You can't eat the cake and still have more cake to eat, is how I've always understood it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which is why I want the fringe element with unacceptable views from the northern half of BC...


----------



## brihard (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> What's absurd is this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No; hectares don’t get votes. Humans do. Trees and factories and lobsters and mineral deposits aren’t represented in Parliament. Humans are.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

I think one of the underlying elements in this discussion is "INSECURITY".

I don't think those living in cities with assured incomes and pensions can fully appreciate the level of angst associated with living in a resource based economy.  You focus on roughnecks  with hundred thousand dollar pay checks.  You don't see the five years of hard scrabble when the price of oil,or grain  tanks or government policies change.

And I will agree that it is not just a western thing but the West seems to lack the level of cushion the government affords the east, including the Atlantic.


----------



## Remius (30 Oct 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I think one of the underlying elements in this discussion is "INSECURITY".
> 
> I don't think those living in cities with assured incomes and pensions can fully appreciate the level of angst associated with living in a resource based economy.  You focus on roughnecks  with hundred thousand dollar pay checks.  You don't see the five years of hard scrabble when the price of oil,or grain  tanks or government policies change.
> 
> And I will agree that it is not just a western thing but the West seems to lack the level of cushion the government affords the east, including the Atlantic.


The problem with bust and boom vs diversified economies. Especially one that relies on external factors as much as internal ones. 

The gold rush, lumber industry, coal mining etc is a good example of that…


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Oct 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Not to detract from any of the posts in this thread, but I’ve never understood this saying.
> 
> Even as a child, when I would hear it, I’d always ask “What’s the point in having cake if we aren’t allowed to eat it?”
> 
> ...


Wedding cakes.

People want to save their wedding cake but they also want to eat it at the wedding.  Can't eat it and save it.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> I think one of the underlying elements in this discussion is "INSECURITY".
> 
> I don't think those living in cities with assured incomes and pensions can fully appreciate the level of angst associated with living in a resource based economy.  You focus on roughnecks  with hundred thousand dollar pay checks.  You don't see the five years of hard scrabble when the price of oil,or grain  tanks or government policies change.
> 
> And I will agree that it is not just a western thing but the West seems to lack the level of cushion the government affords the east, including the Atlantic.


Ontario has a diversified economy much harder for other areas to approach that level. Saskatchewan has the same population it did 100 yrs ago theyre just not driving a bunch of horses anymore


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> No; hectares don’t get votes. Humans do. Trees and factories and lobsters and mineral deposits aren’t represented in Parliament. Humans are.


the problem with that is eventually I am going to be eaten by a bear because some idiot in Toronto thinks all guns should be banned and thinks chocolate milk comes from brown cows


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Cities and government jobs
Cities and the Urban/Rural divide
Red/Blue Cities and Blue/Red Hinterland
Cosmopolitan cities
Capital (Capital Cities) Capitalists....

A bit of free association there.

Cosmopolitan Culture - cities all over the world, cities with airports and internet connection - one culture
Cosmopolitan  Colonialism
Cosmopolitan Colonies
Cosmopolitan Factories - Moose Factory, York Factory, New Amsterdam, Calcutta
Trading centers that dominate their hinterlands

The hinterlands low density and tied to the land
The cities high density with a split population - low income residents tied to the city block and high income nomads.


----------



## Jarnhamar (30 Oct 2022)

mariomike said:


> Some people on our street are still reeling over having to wheel their garbage to the end of the driveway.
> 
> Instead of having it picked up around back, like they used to.


First world problems. I hope they complained to the neighborhood manager


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> No; hectares don’t get votes. Humans do. Trees and factories and lobsters and mineral deposits aren’t represented in Parliament. Humans are.



Absolutely and they should be represented equally.  High population density should not be dictating to low population density. 

Treat them equally.  They both provide different capabilities to our society and both have intrinsic value.  Equal value, treat them as such.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> Ontario has a diversified economy much harder for other areas to approach that level. Saskatchewan has the same population it did 100 yrs ago theyre just not driving a bunch of horses anymore



100 years ago the farmer and his team of horses struggled to make a living off of a quarter section of 160 acres out west.  Plowing "around 40 acres" wouldn't support a family.   Now a farmer and his wife driving tractors, combines and trucks can manage a township - and need to to make a living.

The area of Saskatchewan is a lot more productive but won't support a larger population.

The reverse side of the productivity coin.   Similar things could be said for Alberta and Manitoba, for mining and forestry and for fishing.  Even for secondary industries like foundries.  

Capital beats labour.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> 100 years ago the farmer and his team of horses struggled to make a living off of a quarter section of 160 acres out west.  Plowing "around 40 acres" wouldn't support a family.   Now a farmer and his wife driving tractors, combines and trucks can manage a township - and need to to make a living.
> 
> The area of Saskatchewan is a lot more productive but won't support a larger population.
> 
> ...


Saskatchewan is not a super attractive place in a lot of ways it just a viscious circle of not enough people to drive the economy thus not attracting more people. We remain tied to the greater US economy.


----------



## CBH99 (30 Oct 2022)

Jarnhamar said:


> Wedding cakes.
> 
> People want to save their wedding cake but they also want to eat it at the wedding.  Can't eat it and save it.


40 years old, and I just understood that saying now... thanks guys 😉


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Absolutely and they should be represented equally.  High population density should not be dictating to low population density.



Actually, HT, it's the low density that is over represented in Canada. They don't want to have ridings that cover huge areas so the rural-low-density areas get more ridings per capita than urban high density ones.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Actually, HT, it's the low density that is over represented in Canada. They don't want to have ridings that cover huge areas so the rural-low-density areas get more ridings per capita than urban high density ones.



Sure.  What ever makes you happy.  I'm not really talking about an urban rural divide, that's a talking point others have espoused. 

I will quote myself:



Halifax Tar said:


> *84 Seats Atlantic Region:*
> NFLD
> PEI
> NB
> ...



Whatever is happening right now isn't working well.  

And a split like that forces everyone to play together.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (30 Oct 2022)

Except what you put in your "proposal" isn't based on "density" but on "regional" representation without proportionallity to population at all. You unilaterally define, for instance the Prairies/Pacific  and   Nothern Regions as having an existence that requires us to look at their density of population as a whole, but in "density" terms, there is no difference between the Vancouver/Northern BC divide and the Toronto/Northern Ontario one.

Your proposal may, or may not have validity as a regional representation system, but dont call it something based on "population density".


----------



## FSTO (30 Oct 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Actually, HT, it's the low density that is over represented in Canada. They don't want to have ridings that cover huge areas so the rural-low-density areas get more ridings per capita than urban high density ones.


Yes rural areas have more seats per capita. That is countered by cabinet positions that are overwhelmingly populated by the heavy urban ridings. And in the ever more concentration of power within the cabal of the PMO that distinction is even more stark. Those rural seats could send in Labrador puppy for all the influence they have.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Im not sure we have the ability to change much of our political system in terms of representation, division of powers or political units.
The Senate seems to be the easiest target. Currently 

West/24
Central/48
East/30
North/3


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Oct 2022)

CBH99 said:


> Not to detract from any of the posts in this thread, but I’ve never understood this saying.
> 
> Even as a child, when I would hear it, I’d always ask “What’s the point in having cake if we aren’t allowed to eat it?”
> 
> ...


I found that confusing as well; I think it's meant to imply you can't retain possession of a whole cake and eat it at the same time, ie you can't simultaneously have two conflicting things (like more government services with less taxes). So you need to sacrifice the cake to enjoy eating it.

"Pull yourself up by your bootstraps' is another funny one, but it actually means you can't do something impossible (like lift yourself up by your bootstraps yourself), but somehow has come to mean you need to unf&ck yourself by yourself.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Except what you put in your "proposal" isn't based on "density" but on "regional" representation without proportionallity to population at all. You unilaterally define, for instance the Prairies/Pacific  and   Nothern Regions as having an existence that requires us to look at their density of population as a whole, but in "density" terms, there is no difference between the Vancouver/Northern BC divide and the Toronto/Northern Ontario one.
> 
> Your proposal may, or may not have validity as a regional representation system, but dont call it something based on "population density".



The point is to address the regional divides in our country.  Equalize regional representation.  Give each region equal political value in our confederation.  

I couldn't care less about population density.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> The point is to address the regional divides in our country.  Equalize regional representation.  Give each region equal political value in our confederation.
> 
> I couldn't care less about population density.






I am starting to like the Area Code system more and more - Each one represents a significant community in similar environments with similar wants and needs.

Primary City States 
416
514
604

Suburbs
905
613
519

Exurbs
250
403
780
306
204
807
705
450
506
902

Hinterlands
867
468
367
709

Plus or minus a bit on the estimates.

24 Regions


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

More people live in Calgary than in all of Nova Scotia.  Alberta has nearly double the population of NB, NL, NS and PE combined.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (30 Oct 2022)

Fair enough, HT.

But it leads to at least two questions:

1) Why is equal regional representation of any importance in this country? And,

2) Who gets to define the regions?

I mean, I'm not sure that B.C. wants to be considered as part of a region that includes Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba instead of it's own region all by itself (not sure about how Manitoba feels about SA and AB either, for that matter), or how NFLD & Lab feels about being put in the same basket as the other Atlantic provinces. And I am pretty sure that neither Quebec nor Ontario wants to be sadlled with the other in the same "region", but would rather claim (with good historical basis) to be their own region by themselves.

P.S: We already have such a system of "equal" regional representation. It's called the Senate.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Fair enough, HT.
> 
> But it leads to at least two questions:
> 
> ...



1) Because our country has massive regional disenfranchisement.  Both politically and socially. 

2) I do, it's my scenario. 

Putting some opposing groups together in the same cart is a good thing. It should help balance out the extremes.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> More people live in Calgary than in all of Nova Scotia.  Alberta has nearly double the population of NB, NL, NS and PE combined.



Blah blah blah blah. 

Just because 1 million people live at point A and 250K at point B doesn't mean the concerns or issues of the lesser population should be less important politically.


----------



## FSTO (30 Oct 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> (not sure about how Manitoba feels about SA and AB either, for that matter),


OGB. Don’t confuse Winnipeg attitudes with the rest of the province. In fact there are 3 distinct regions within the province. The shield, rural, and Winnipeg. 
Also Western Manitoba and Eastern Saskatchewan are totally the same in attitudes, geography and politics. 

Same with western Saskatchewan and Eastern Alberta. You can toss the Peace River  country of both BC and Alberta as homogeneous regions.


----------



## suffolkowner (30 Oct 2022)

Kirkhill said:


> View attachment 74556
> 
> 
> I am starting to like the Area Code system more and more - Each one represents a significant community in similar environments with similar wants and needs.
> ...


going to take more work I think Windsor doesnt have much to do with Owen Sound or the area in between


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Blah blah blah blah.
> 
> Just because 1 million people live at point A and 250K at point B doesn't mean the concerns or issues of the lesser population should be less important politically.


Who said that?


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

FSTO said:


> OGB. Don’t confuse Winnipeg attitudes with the rest of the province. In fact there are 3 distinct regions within the province. The shield, rural, and Winnipeg.
> Also Western Manitoba and Eastern Saskatchewan are totally the same in attitudes, geography and politics.
> 
> Same with western Saskatchewan and Eastern Alberta. You can toss the Peace River  country of both BC and Alberta as homogeneous regions.



Maybe some provincial borders should be redrawn?


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Who said that?



You did, you just put it between your lines. 

We discussed this before. Unless you've changed your mind  ?


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (30 Oct 2022)

Well, I guess I haven't travelled far and wide in this great country of ours lately, but I don't see disenfranchisement on a regional scale in the regions you mention. I see a big divide on a provincial versus federal level between two specific provinces - Alberta and Saskatchewan - over the way the Oil and Gas industry is being treated by Ottawa, and all provinces and territories against Ottawa  in matters relating to Health Care spending. But I don't see regional disenfranchisement  otherwise by regions as you define them. BC, Man, ON, and even QC currently, or the Atlantic provinces don't seem to have a big "disenfranchisement" problem with the Canadian federation as it is now.


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> You did, you just put it between your lines.
> 
> We discussed this before. Unless you've changed your mind  ?



Never did.  Never said that the voices of the group of (in your example) 250,000 should not be heard.

But where do you draw your lines?  How do you form your groups?

We have systems that are imperfect but better than alternatives.  You're advocating that living in an area with a large population should strip you of equality.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Oct 2022)

Or we could just be happy we live in the best country in the world by a long mile......


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Never did.  Never said that the voices of the group of (in your example) 250,000 should not be heard.
> 
> But where do you draw your lines?  How do you form your groups?
> 
> We have systems that are imperfect but better than alternatives.  You're advocating that living in an area with a large population should strip you of equality.



We certainly have.  I've brought this up before in another thread.

Ive posted and quoted the way I would do it.  You can read back and see.

I'm advocating that living in an area with a large population shouldnt make you more equal.


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We certainly have.  I've brought this up before in another thread.
> 
> Ive posted and quoted the way I would do it.  You can read back and see.
> 
> I'm advocating that living in an are with a large population shouldnt make you more equal.


One person one vote.

Don't see how that's unequal.

On the other hand, using arbitrary lines to claim "this group is equal to that group" strikes me as singularly unfair; who makes those decisions?  Who decides that "two million Atlantic Canadians get the same weighting as twenty four million central Canadians"?


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Fair enough, HT.
> 
> But it leads to at least two questions:
> 
> ...



Equally I'm not sure that NE BC and the Crows Nest Pass want to be considered in the same sentence as Victoria and Point Grey.   Etc.

And wrt the Senate - That is the problem child.  It needs to be fixed.  And Bert Brown's EEE senate is the right answer.  The problem is neither the parties, the government nor the provinces want an EFFECTIVE senate.  It would only make life harder for them.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> One person one vote.
> 
> Don't see how that's unequal.
> 
> On the other hand, using arbitrary lines to claim "this group is equal to that group" strikes me as singularly unfair; who makes those decisions?  Who decides that "two million Atlantic Canadians get the same weighting as twenty four million central Canadians"?



The inequality is in the distribution of seats.  

Distribute them equally.  I used regions, someone else likes an area code idea. 

I know that's a scary idea for those in central Canada as admittedly they are giving up the power.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Oldgateboatdriver said:


> Well, I guess I haven't travelled far and wide in this great country of ours lately, but I don't see disenfranchisement on a regional scale in the regions you mention. I see a big divide on a provincial versus federal level between two specific provinces - Alberta and Saskatchewan - over the way the Oil and Gas industry is being treated by Ottawa, and all provinces and territories against Ottawa  in matters relating to Health Care spending. But I don't see regional disenfranchisement  otherwise by regions as you define them. BC, Man, ON, and even QC currently, or the Atlantic provinces don't seem to have a big "disenfranchisement" problem with the Canadian federation as it is now.



You could add farmers, which make up a substantial part of the population and economy out west, to the disgruntled  - carbon and fertilizers pretty much defines their livelihoods.  

On the other hand you could probably make them happier with income averaging over 7 years and granting them carbon credits for all the roots, straw, hay and bran they grow and the CO2 they pump into the atmosphere that gets consumed by grass for pasture, for marshes and peat bogs and trees for the lumber industry.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> One person one vote.
> 
> Don't see how that's unequal.
> 
> On the other hand, using arbitrary lines to claim "this group is equal to that group" strikes me as singularly unfair; who makes those decisions?  Who decides that "two million Atlantic Canadians get the same weighting as twenty four million central Canadians"?



Its not about this group being equal to that group.  Its about this group's needs being different to that one's.  Wants we can work around.   Needs are different.  Needs start affecting food, shelter, warmth, mobility.


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

One person one vote.

You still haven't countered that.

Your definition of "equality" is where I have an issue - you're using an arbitrary, impossible to measure standard that somehow a "region" (not defined) deserves to be equal to other, equally arbitrary "regions". 

So does that mean a swamp on a grid in Gagetown deserves the same representation in Parliament as, say Vancouver Island?

Or does Cape Breton deserve a veto over anything done in the provincial legislature in Halifax?  Can Flin Flon dictate the agenda for all of Manitoba?


I return to a foundational principle of one person, one vote.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> One person one vote.
> 
> You still haven't countered that.
> 
> ...



I assume this is to me ?

Who's arguing against 1 person 1 vote ?  Why do I need to counter it ? 

I'm talking about the redistribution of the seats in the HOC.


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I assume this is to me ?
> 
> Who's arguing against 1 person 1 vote ?
> 
> I'm talking about the redistribution of the seats in the HOC.



You are arguing that one vote in Atlantic Canada should be the equivalent of twelve in Central Canada.  You're abandoning the concept that votes are equal.


----------



## Navy_Pete (30 Oct 2022)

Our current electoral system is deliberately set up to give greater say to rural issues than what they would get on a 'one-for-one' basis for the votes, which is why most provinces/territories are over represented on a per capita basis.

I don't think we need to change it, I think it's basically the fault of MPs (in all parties) that think they represent only their riding's interest, vice the entire federation.

Even living in the city, it's in my best interest to make sure the farmers across the country can keep growing food, we can be self sufficient with O&G and other key resources. But on the flip side, something impacting 8 million people in the GTA is still a big deal, as it's a quarter of the population of the country.

Sure there will be individual issues in a riding where an MP should be concerned about, but a lot of it actually isn't in their swimlane for federal responsibilities.

ALl of this drives towards more government though, not less, as things like strategic management of resources requires a lot more people than just letting the market do it's thing. And when big projects cross provincial borders and federal lands, they can't avoid responsibilities or ignore the impact.

Get a lot more flies with honey, so AB/SK would maybe have better luck if they sold it to the rest of the country as 'what's in it for them' and also didn't completely ignore the emissions concerns.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> You are arguing that one vote in Atlantic Canada should be the equivalent of twelve in Central Canada.  You're abandoning the concept that votes are equal.



No, I agree with you. 1 person 1 vote.  I know the numbers game you're playing through.  You've played it before.  You should whip out some equation next.

Those votes are exactly equal to each other in my scenario.  As the volume of seats up for grabs are the same. 

As I said, I know thats scary for central Canada. But it's time we all played on the same field in this county.  And right now we are not.  Only a small portion of the country needs to be paid attention to because they are seat and votes rich. 

EQUAL REPRESENTATION


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Eight four seats for Atlantic Canada would be one seat for every 24,000 people.

Eighty four seats for Central Canada would be one seat for every 279,000 people.

Explain equality to me again - how the equivalent of a sold out home game for the Maple Leafs would get a seat in Parliament if in Atlantic Canada, but the full population of Kingston ON would get less than half a seat to represent them.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Oct 2022)

Democracy on my terms


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Half of the House of Commons for Tisdale SK (for inspiring Ministry), and the rest for the remainder of Canada.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Eight four seats for Atlantic Canada would be one seat for every 24,000 people.
> 
> Eighty four seats for Central Canada would be one seat for every 279,000 people.
> 
> Explain equality to me again - how the equivalent of a sold out home game for the Maple Leafs would get a seat in Parliament if in Atlantic Canada, but the full population of Kingston ON would get less than half a seat to represent them.



Man, you are predictable.  See I told you we've been over this before. 

It's spreading the seats equally.  I used regions someone else used area codes.  Maybe that's a better idea ? 

279K people with a problem does not Trump 24K people with a problem.  Even out the seats so they can all come to the table and work together instead of dictating.



Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Democracy on my terms



Arguably, it's been democracy on Ont and Que terms for some time.


----------



## Halifax Tar (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> Half of the House of Commons for Tisdale SK (for inspiring Ministry), and the rest for the remainder of Canada.



I have no idea what you're on about with this one.


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Oct 2022)

The notion that municipal government has greater effect on people than higher levels is a quaint myth.

Given what I could do with the amount of money the federal government taxes away, the way that money is used to buy votes, and the constant social fiddling the feds like to do, there's no question the federal government is the most intrusive and influential.  I do live in a municipality which hasn't the luxury of worrying about more than basic infrastructure, though, which might set me apart from people living in places where councils are obsessed with social engineering.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Oct 2022)

It's petty, not exactly diplomatic and proper, or maybe no truth to it. However, similar to Kat, I'm sick and tired of the west blaming their woes, slings and arrows, on Ontario. They bitch and whine about their oil. All the time forgetting that if it wasn't  for Ontario, our tool making, machining, smelting and production in Ontario, the west would still be scraping in the dirt. Most of the rig tooling comes from here. Tons of the roughnecks come from the east. It's  a symbiotic existence. One side can't do their jobs without the other. Quit blaming each other and understand this isn't  a provincial problem. It's  the fault of the federal government and their archaic policies, to divide us and bankrupt us. Put the blame where it belongs. Try and figure how to vote? You won't do it with 17,000 people (PEI) driving policy for 15 million (ONT). I don't  care how you try divide it.


----------



## brihard (30 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> So does that mean a swamp on a grid *hill* in Gagetown deserves the same representation in Parliament as, say Vancouver Island?



FTFY


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> FTFY


Doesn't narrow it down by much.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Democracy on my terms


Now you sound like trudeau.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Now you sound like trudeau.


Not unless I typed in 7 or 8 hmm's and haw's...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> Not unless I typed in 7 or 8 hmm's and haw's...


Drink box water bottle thingies


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> It's petty, not exactly diplomatic and proper, or maybe no truth to it. However, similar to Kat, I'm sick and tired of the west blaming their woes, slings and arrows, on Ontario. They bitch and whine about their oil. All the time forgetting that if it wasn't  for Ontario, our tool making, machining, smelting and production in Ontario, the west would still be scraping in the dirt. Most of the rig tooling comes from here. Tons of the roughnecks come from the east. It's  a symbiotic existence. One side can't do their jobs without the other. Quit blaming each other and understand this isn't  a provincial problem. It's  the fault of the federal government and their archaic policies, to divide us and bankrupt us. Put the blame where it belongs. Try and figure how to vote? You won't do it with 17,000 people (PEI) driving policy for 15 million (ONT). I don't  care how you try divide it.


The federal government that Ontbec keeps putting in power.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> It's petty, not exactly diplomatic and proper, or maybe no truth to it. However, similar to Kat, I'm sick and tired of the west blaming their woes, slings and arrows, on Ontario. They bitch and whine about their oil. All the time forgetting that if it wasn't  for Ontario, our tool making, machining, smelting and production in Ontario, the west would still be scraping in the dirt. Most of the rig tooling comes from here. Tons of the roughnecks come from the east. It's  a symbiotic existence. One side can't do their jobs without the other. Quit blaming each other and understand this isn't  a provincial problem. It's  the fault of the federal government and their archaic policies, to divide us and bankrupt us. Put the blame where it belongs. Try and figure how to vote? You won't do it with 17,000 people (PEI) driving policy for 15 million (ONT). I don't  care how you try divide it.


For the umpteenth, and last time. I'm trying to explain here that people who dismiss western displeasure do so from a position of either not knowing, or not caring, that the federal govt has launched a steadfast campaign of biting the hand that feeds them. That's it. That's all. I've already explained where I stand, as I don't work in any of those industries under attack, but I live right in the middle of all the people that do. I understand it. Others clearly don't. Good enough for me, I'll drop out of this because I'm clearly pissing in the wind.


----------



## brihard (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> The federal government that Ontbec keeps putting in power.


Fun facts: the CPC got more votes in Ontario than they did in any other province, and got nearly half their seats east of the MB/ON border.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> Fun facts: the CPC got more votes in Ontario than they did in any other province, and got nearly half their seats east of the MB/ON border.


Clearly not enough,  Also fun fact: As everyone keeps reminding me, Ontario has all the people, it stands to reason there would be more blue votes. QED, innit? Numbers are fun!


----------



## brihard (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Clearly not enough,  Also fun fact: As everyone keeps reminding me, Ontario has all the people, it stands to reason there would be more blue votes. QED, innit? Numbers are fun!


I’m just glad someone in this thread grasps parliamentary representation being proportionate to population.


----------



## Kat Stevens (30 Oct 2022)

brihard said:


> I’m just glad someone in this thread grasps parliamentary representation being proportionate to population.


Fuck it, I knew I should have just walked away from this. My point has the square root of fuck all to do with ridings and population and who's ass warms what seat. People are angry and other people don't see why and never will. That's it. G'bye now.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (30 Oct 2022)

SOME people are angry.....


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> It's petty, not exactly diplomatic and proper, or maybe no truth to it. However, similar to Kat, I'm sick and tired of the west blaming their woes, slings and arrows, on Ontario. They bitch and whine about their oil. All the time forgetting that if it wasn't  for Ontario, our tool making, machining, smelting and production in Ontario, the west would still be scraping in the dirt. Most of the rig tooling comes from here. Tons of the roughnecks come from the east. It's  a symbiotic existence. One side can't do their jobs without the other. Quit blaming each other and understand this isn't  a provincial problem. It's  the fault of the federal government and their archaic policies, to divide us and bankrupt us. Put the blame where it belongs. Try and figure how to vote? You won't do it with 17,000 people (PEI) driving policy for 15 million (ONT). I don't  care how you try divide it.



For the record, we can buy tooling from the States and Germany.  Ontario and Quebec have benefited from Sir John A. MacDonald's National Policy.









						National Policy - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				







> The *National Policy* was a Canadian economic program introduced by John A. Macdonald's Conservative Party in 1876. After Macdonald led the Conservatives to victory in the 1878 Canadian federal election, he began implementing his policy in 1879. *The protective policy had shown positive responses in the economy with new industries flourishing Canada's economy in the 1880s. *John A. Macdonald combined three elements as a strategy for the post-Confederation economy. First, by *calling for high tariffs on imported manufactured items to protect the manufacturing industry. *Second, by calling for a massive expansion of physical infrastructure, such as roads and railroads. Finally, enabled and supported by the former two, by promoting population growth, particularly in western Canada.






> Macdonald influenced Canadians to buy Canadian products to promote Canada's economy.* The problems were that the railways were easily importing goods and products from the United States that were much cheaper than Canadian-made goods. Macdonald proposed to put tax or tariffs on American imported goods and products.*



You might want to also consider the tale of Massey-Harris and the effects of the Crow Rate on development of industry on the prairies.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (30 Oct 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The notion that municipal government has greater effect on people than higher levels is a quaint myth.
> 
> Given what I could do with the amount of money the federal government taxes away, the way that money is used to buy votes, and the constant social fiddling the feds like to do, there's no question the federal government is the most intrusive and influential.  I do live in a municipality which hasn't the luxury of worrying about more than basic infrastructure, though, which might set me apart from people living in places where councils are obsessed with social engineering.


The Federal government barely knows you exist. the Provincial government is aware that you live somewhere in the Province. The Muncipal government knows what the colour of your house is, if you have a dog, how much water you use, number of cars, etc, etc. So yes people feel the impact more.


----------



## Kirkhill (30 Oct 2022)

Bruce Monkhouse said:


> SOME people are angry.....



No.   A fair number of people are angry.  Some are just discontent. Some are reaching their tipping point.  And despite the general distribution across the country there is a shared sense of discontent in the non-Vancouver West (Rupert-George-The Crow-Edmonton-Red Deer-Calgary-Lethbridge-The Hat-Regina-Saskatoon-Winnipeg-The Lakehead).  Different places have different degrees of dissatisfaction but Rupert's Land, by and large, has a shared identity so they tend to cluster around the same issues.

I know there are folks in Ontario dissatisfied as well.  And in Quebec.  And the Atlantic.  And the North.  They tend to have separate identities and separate issues.  And it is that separation that keeps a minority in power.


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Honest question: has there ever been a federal government with a majority of the popular vote?


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Oct 2022)

"Know" and "impact" are two different things.  Local government doesn't conduct a census.  Mine doesn't even have metered water.


----------



## Brad Sallows (30 Oct 2022)

Conservatives in '58 and '84 managed to get over 50% of votes cast.


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Absolutely and they should be represented equally.  High population density should not be dictating to low population density.
> 
> Treat them equally.  They both provide different capabilities to our society and both have intrinsic value.  Equal value, treat them as such.


Remember Paul Martin?

“The minority will not be dictated to by the majority “

In Canada that will never happen


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Conservatives in '58 and '84 managed to get over 50% of votes cast.


In the latter case, resulting in manilla envelopes full of cash to the PM.


----------



## Grimey (30 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> You lived on Vancouver Island, the leftest of all leftist enclaves, with a guaranteed pay cheque twice a month? How did you ever survive? I bet you have a friend that lives in Calgary too.


Leftist?  You forget that the island was represented by the Refoooorrrm Party (stand fast Victoria) from 1993 to the mid oughties.  So maybe more contrarian than left.  I would say though that Mr. Garrison and the rest of Van Isle Team Dipper aren’t going anywhere soon.  Why Liz is still ensconced in Saanich and the islands beggars belief.


----------



## YZT580 (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Come to NS, party politics is definitely involved in municipal politics.


and in Toronto for sure.  It has had a solid NDP input municipally for years


----------



## dapaterson (30 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Come to NS, party politics is definitely involved in municipal politics.


From what I have seen, you can tell who a riding voted for based on the condition of the roads.


----------



## Lumber (31 Oct 2022)

This is all kind of for not, isn't it? I mean, scream and reveal all you want, but even if the Liberals are as bad as everyone says they are, and the Liberals lose and we see another 8-10 years of Conservative governments, the Liberals will be back soon enough. They aren't going anywhere.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> The federal government that Ontbec keeps putting in power.


Sigh. You mean Toronto, Ottawa and Kingston. Not Ontario.


----------



## mariomike (31 Oct 2022)

YZT580 said:


> and in Toronto for sure.  It has had a solid NDP input municipally for years


I've never seen party politics on the municipal ballot.

John Tory is on his third term as mayor. Rob Ford did a term before that.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Remember Paul Martin?
> 
> “The minority will not be dictated to by the majority “
> 
> In Canada that will never happen


I knew Paul Senior. Delivered his paper and coffee when he was home. He used to come and sit in my dad's garage and shoot the shit for hours. He is the last honest Liberal I knew.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> In the latter case, resulting in manilla envelopes full of cash to the PM.


Which has what to do with votes? But if you want to talk payoffs and bribes, Mulroney was an amatuer. The real pro is the one that takes our tax money, launders it through third world despots and projects with no paperwork. Then collect their portion either off shore or donated into their favourite Foundation. Or use it to buy standing at WEF.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> From what I have seen, you can tell who a riding voted for based on the condition of the roads.


Feds don't fix the roads in my city. Our city does.....and my taxes. It doesn't matter who is sitting on the Iron Throne.

Our municipal council, professionally, has zero party affiliation. There are no red, orange or blue signs during our municipal elections. Nor do they receive any support from the provincial and federal riding associations


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## RangerRay (31 Oct 2022)

In the Senate, give each province an equal number of seats regardless of size. Give each territory a smaller number. Would be better if it was elected, but baby steps. 

Next, make the House of Commons a truly representation by population body. End special exemptions for provinces like Prince Edward Island and Quebec (except for the territories, they get one each). Rural ridings have equal populations as urban ridings. Use the population of PEI as a benchmark for riding population so they have at least one MP not shared with another province. 

The biggest (insurmountable?) roadblock would be the provincial governments because they have the most to lose.  The premiers like their Council of the Federation to be a de facto Senate, but can anyone think of anything useful they have done?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

RangerRay said:


> In the Senate, give each province an equal number of seats regardless of size. Give each territory a smaller number. Would be better if it was elected, but baby steps.
> 
> Next, make the House of Commons a truly representation by population body. End special exemptions for provinces like Prince Edward Island and Quebec (except for the territories, they get one each). Rural ridings have equal populations as urban ridings. Use the population of PEI as a benchmark for riding population so they have at least one MP not shared with another province.
> 
> The biggest (insurmountable?) roadblock would be the provincial governments because they have the most to lose.  The premiers like their Council of the Federation to be a de facto Senate, but can anyone think of anything useful they have done?


You have to remove the power of the PM to solely decide, on their own, who will be a SC judge or senator.


----------



## IKnowNothing (31 Oct 2022)

When I read @Halifax Tar 's proposal, my first thought was to dismiss it out of hand as fundamentally undemocratic.  But as the various challenges and defenses came up a couple words kept sticking out.

Interests.  Problems.  Very interesting word choices, which, depending on how you define them actually lend credence to a departure towards a more regional, population based approach to certain portfolios.

If we draw a hard red line between *regional interests and problems  *and _regional views on national issues and values_ I can see where the proposal has merit.  It's completely pie in the sky hypothetical, and next to impossible to implement, but it would be interesting to see if a more regionally weighted body could do a better job steering the ship on the economy/ business taxation/regulation so that regional livelihoods are protected from tyranny by the majority, and a collaborative approach is taken to pursue and achieve a thriving economy that is better for all Canadians.

That being said, imposing religion/values/personal view on morality is NOT a *regional interest*. It would only work if the majority had ironclad protection from the minority dictating _regional views on national issues and values._


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Oct 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> When I read @Halifax Tar 's proposal, my first thought was to dismiss it out of hand as fundamentally undemocratic.  But as the various challenges and defenses came up a couple words kept sticking out.
> 
> Interests.  Problems.  Very interesting word choices, which, depending on how you define them actually lend credence to a departure towards a more regional, population based approach to certain portfolios.
> 
> ...



I appreciate your input.

I completely recognize its "pie in the sky", and will never happen.

All I want to see is all areas of this country get equal representation for our interests and concerns.  

I voted for JT in 2015.  Because of his stance to decriminalize marijuana and his statement that that election was to be our last FPTP.  Since then he's been nothing but a disappointment.  And his 180 on FPTP has soured me for the foreseeable future against the LPC.


----------



## Remius (31 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I appreciate your input.
> 
> I completely recognize its "pie in the sky", and will never happen.
> 
> ...


Both were good reasons to vote for something as opposed to against.  I voted against the CPC in 2015 because of the procedural shenanigans, omnibus bills, tired government and the gradual centralisation of power in the PMO.   But at least the opposition LPC were offering some things I was on board with.

I voted against the LPC last time in the hopes that the CPC could become a decent alternative again.  Trudeau also continued to centralise power in the PMO and also employed procedural shenanigans. Not much to vote for either way but was voting for a moe centrist CPC.

Next time is a toss up.  Not seing much to vote for but campaigns matter and we’ll see.  Not a fan of PP or JT.  But I have a liking for a few LPC ministers but haven’t identified any CPC critics I like just yet.  So maybe leaning red slightly in the hopes they right themselves towards the middle.  I have my doubts that PP will move to the Center. 

Time will tell but in 2024 the LPC will be a very tired party.


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Both were good reasons to vote for something as opposed to against.  I voted against the CPC in 2015 because of the procedural shenanigans, omnibus bills, tired government and the gradual centralisation of power in the PMO.   But at least the opposition LPC were offering some things I was on board with.
> 
> I voted against the LPC last time in the hopes that the CPC could become a decent alternative again.  Trudeau also continued to centralise power in the PMO and also employed procedural shenanigans. Not much to vote for either way but was voting for a moe centrist CPC.
> 
> ...



I try to find a party that best represents me.  

Currently, that's nearly impossible.


----------



## IKnowNothing (31 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> All I want to see is all areas of this country get equal representation for our interests and concerns.


As a lifelong rural Ontarian I sympathize. 

And as I said, I think there's merit to re-evaluating how regional economic and infrastructural interests are weighted in our system.  But unless those can be separated from values/issues  I think what we have is by far the "less bad"


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Oct 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> As a lifelong rural Ontarian I sympathize.
> 
> And as I said, I think there's merit to re-evaluating how regional economic and infrastructural interests are weighted in our system.  But unless those can be separated from values/issues  I think what we have is by far the "less bad"



Part of democracy is allowing discussion on topics we don't agree with.   

Can you expand on your statement ?


----------



## Haggis (31 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I voted for JT in 2015.  Because of his stance to decriminalize marijuana and his statement that that election was to be our last FPTP.  Since then he's been nothing but a disappointment.  And his 180 on FPTP has soured me for the foreseeable future against the LPC.


Which of the following probable Liberal election promises would bring you back to Team Red?


Decriminalization of soft drugs?
An end to civilian firearms ownership?
Universal Basic Income?
Pardons for "returning foreign travellers"?
National moratorium on hydrocarbon fuel exploration and production?
Reduced sentences for crime against the person committed by offenders from marginalized communities?
Ending detentions and deportations of Roxham Road refugees?
Strengthening ties with China and reciprocal policing arrangements between the RCMP and the Chinese FSB?
National Internet content management standards?


----------



## Halifax Tar (31 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> Which of the following probable Liberal election promises would bring you back to Team Red?
> 
> 
> Decriminalization of soft drugs?
> ...



His 180 on FPTP elections was fairly early in his mandate.  This almost instantly alienated me from them.

But I am happy with what they have done with marijuana and MAID.

As I have said, he (JT) and by extension the LPC, have been a disappointment.  I am not sure they have the ability to walk back their stance on various items for me vote for them ever again.


----------



## IKnowNothing (31 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Part of democracy is allowing discussion on topics we don't agree with.
> 
> Can you expand on your statement ?


 Whether you define the power dynamic as interprovincial or rural/urban an unfortunate byproduct of vote concentration is that certain less peopled places are disadvantaged politically.  In an ideal world the "regions" would be better equipped to advocate for their wellbeing on economic and infrastructure interests.   

But in said ideal world rectifying the above cannot come at the cost of enabling a minority to dictate to the majority on social issues, the overall direction of the nation etc.


----------



## Haggis (31 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> His 180 on FPTP elections was fairly early in his mandate.  This almost instantly alienated me from them.
> 
> But I am happy with what they have done with marijuana and MAID.


More regulation is coming on cannabis.  The likely outcome is that it will be more controlled and more taxed.

MAID, while well intentioned, is spiraling out of control.  It is, IMO, more available than it should be.  However, it is now endorsed by at least one staffer at VAC as a solution.


----------



## Navy_Pete (31 Oct 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Whether you define the power dynamic as interprovincial or rural/urban an unfortunate byproduct of vote concentration is that certain less peopled places are disadvantaged politically.  In an ideal world the "regions" would be better equipped to advocate for their wellbeing on economic and infrastructure interests.
> 
> But in said ideal world rectifying the above cannot come at the cost of enabling a minority to dictate to the majority on social issues, the overall direction of the nation etc.


I think that's why we need multiple levels of government, so you can let local orgs deal with just local things. The problem is that very few issues are just local, and locals don't have resources to deal with really big problems. Similarly, building a big industry that dumps stuff into a river impacts everyone down stream so a lot of things aren't really local.

Even locally you run into urban/rural divide, especially in the big cities that cover huge regions.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (31 Oct 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> . People are angry and other people don't see why



I get it now Kat, just cracked my last bottle of Saskatoon Berry Moonshine.....I'm angry that I'm not heading back out there until next summer.🤠


----------



## Infanteer (31 Oct 2022)

This thread is epic.


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## Halifax Tar (31 Oct 2022)

Haggis said:


> More regulation is coming on cannabis.  The likely outcome is that it will be more controlled and more taxed.
> 
> MAID, while well intentioned, is spiraling out of control.  It is, IMO, more available than it should be.  However, it is now endorsed by at least one staffer at VAC as a solution.



We will see what happens with cannabis.  Also I am all for higher sin taxes, and we should do the same with sex work.  Open it up, regulate it and tax the crap out of it.  

As for MAID, like it or not, it is what some people want.  As long as it stays the sound mind choice of the patient I am happy.  Who am I to tell someone no you aren't allowed to die yet ?  Your body your choice, right ?


----------



## Edward Campbell (31 Oct 2022)

These three articles might be of interest:


Country, Province, and Nation: How Saskatchewan is right and wrong in its bid to end asymmetrical federalism   - The Hub
Howard Anglin: Country, Province, and Nation: What makes the Québécois a nation? - The Hub
Country, Province, and Nation: Canada is not a nation - The Hub

My, personal, view is that Canada never was and never can be a nation. A stake was driven through that notion in 1774.

Canada is a geographic\cal expression ... little else, _in my opinion_.

So often in the last century and a half we have seen that 'crises' large and small can pull the country apart and nothing much - not e.g. Expo '67 in Montreal or the Montreal Olympics ever seemed to pull it together. The two conscription crises left political scars from which Canada never has and, _in my opinion_, never can recover.

Can Canada continue as a viable state? _<shrug> _Who knows? Maybe more importantly, who cares?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

I'm probably wrong, but it sounds like that was a great time to start to establish the Laurentien Elitists. Secret plots to ensure that England would never dominate the French and continued on after Confederation. All with the goal of dominating the country politically and financially.

I've often thought that if we could cut out Quebec and float them out to the Atlantic Ocean, we'd be much better off.


----------



## daftandbarmy (31 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> These three articles might be of interest:
> 
> 
> Country, Province, and Nation: How Saskatchewan is right and wrong in its bid to end asymmetrical federalism   - The Hub
> ...



Any country that can produce such a character is worth keeping, IMHO 

[_Sir John A. Macdonald was well known for his wit and also for his love of drink. He is known to have been drunk for many of his debates in Parliament. Here is a story from an election debate in which Macdonald was so drunk he began vomiting while on stage_. _His opponent quickly pointed this out._]  

The opposing candidate said: “Is this the man you want running your country? A drunk!” Collecting himself, Macdonald replied “I get sick … not because of drink [but because] I am forced to listen to the ranting of my honourable opponent.”






						10 Favourite Quotes of Sir John A. Macdonald | By George Journal
					






					www.bygeorgejournal.ca


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Oct 2022)

Unfortunately, MAID in Canada is not solely the choice of sound minds.  It can be used as an exit point for people in mental or emotional distress.


----------



## mariomike (31 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Even locally you run into urban/rural divide, especially in the big cities that cover huge regions.



In a big city,  local ratepayers associations "Reflecting the interests of the community" have influence.

In particular, that only single detached houses are permitted.

Couldn't serve alcohol - not even a glass of wine or bottle of beer with your dinner in a restaurant - until after 2000. That was a local thing.  Except at the Legion.

Our street doesn't have a sidewalk.

If the city wants to install a sidewalk, it must go through the local councillor for the area. He or she must complete a consult of the neighbourhood about who supports a sidewalk and who doesn't.

Our ratepayers association says   .

Tradition unimpeded by progress.


----------



## Edward Campbell (31 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I'm probably wrong, but it sounds like that was a great time to start to establish the Laurentien Elitists. Secret plots to ensure that England would never dominate the French and continued on after Confederation. All with the goal of dominating the country politically and financially.
> 
> I've often thought that if we could cut out Quebec and float them out to the Atlantic Ocean, we'd be much better off.


1774 was an attempt to do _on the cheap_ what probably, otherwise, would require considerable (expensive) force to accomplish: pacify the French population of Canada. In 1763 the plan had been to assimilate '_les habitants_' ... but assimilate into what? There was no large, dominant English society in the region - there was in Southern New York, but not up near the St Lawrence Vally. After a decade it was obvious that the 'elites' in 'Canada' - essentially a few priests, a few school teachers and a few merchants and traders - were more or less united in wanting too retain two things: the French language and the supremacy of the Roman church through which they could keep their own control of the colony. 1774 simply recognized that there was no cheap way to prevent that.

There was an expensive way: expand the Highland Clearances, which the Duke of Argyll had begun after1745, and move a mix of Scots crofters and tack-men and soldiers into 'Canada,' taking, by force, land away from the French-Canadians and the aboriginals and giving it to the Scots and then enforcing those acts with a few regiments of Scottish troops. I suggest, with about 99% certainty, that would have worked. But it woulds have cost money and Lord North and Pitt the Younger were both focused on establishing British financial security, not on 'wasting' money on an unproductive colony.


----------



## Infanteer (31 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> Canada is a geographic\cal expression ... little else, _in my opinion_.
> ....
> Can Canada continue as a viable state? _<shrug> _Who knows? Maybe more importantly, who cares?



Canada is not a nation state. We don't define our nationhood by shared ethnic background, religion, or language. I guess this evolved from that 18th century decision you pointed at where the British would "live and let live" with the French-speaking Canadiens. It started a trend or an ideal that has crept forward, unequally and in fits and starts, to the modern day.

I'd argue that being Canadian means sharing a geographic area with people committed to a shared set of values and ideals. I think these values are broadly defined by concepts such as to live and let live, ensure political equality and rule of law, associate with whomever you choose, seek out a livelihood and prosperity, etc. Do we live up to these values as individuals or as a country? Not all the time, but they do act as a lodestone, and should define what slapping on a Maple Leaf flag to a uniform or backpack means.

I think this is important moving forward, where nation states feel pressure in increasingly globalized world. Canada is better able to absorb, say, 100,000 Syrians as new Canadians when compared to somewhere like Sweden or Czechia, where a different language and religion is contrary to the idea of being from that nation state. Not being a nation state will make us more competitive as the world gets smaller and smaller.

I also think language will matter less and less in terms of being Canadian. 10-20 years from now, three Canadians will be able to have a conversation in Cree, Punjabi, and French and all be understood because they'll have smartphones with earbuds that do instantaneous translation of the spoken word. Who cares what language someone else speaks if we can all be understood?

As for the cries to change Parliament and our Constitution (and your question as to whether Canada can continue as a viable state) - to what end?  We have a system that has given us 155 years of continuous peace, order, and good (enough) governance. We get up, and the power works, our kids go to school, and we can go to work without worrying about getting blown up en route. We can practice our faith while someone else practices theirs down the road, and we don't firebomb each other for doing so.  In terms of political rights and civil liberties, we are amongst the freest in the world. According to the OECD, our average disposable income, level of employment, level of higher education, and life expectancy are all above the average of OECD countries, and quite high in general. Our country brings in hundreds of thousands of newcomers a year, and the fact that 401,000 humans decided last year alone that here was a better place for their children than wherever they came from tells us we are doing something right.

Again, there are glaring inconsistencies in the narrative; a trip to a small Reserve will reveal this, but these are exceptions that we must fix, and not indictment of an ineffective system that needs to be overhauled or torn down. Do we need to change the carpet and update the drapes? Probably, but the foundations are solid. It's a good house.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Oct 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> ... My, personal, view is that Canada never was and never can be a nation. A stake was driven through that notion in 1774.
> 
> Canada is a geographic\cal expression ... little else, _in my opinion_ ...


Careful, there - some would say you're agreeing with those saying Canada has no "core identity" 


Infanteer said:


> ... Not being a nation state with cast-in-concrete features used just to shut people out as "those people" will make us more competitive as the world gets smaller and smaller ...


Finessing some of your already-great summary, Infanteer - thanks for the detail.

And great discussion from all posters, BTW.


----------



## KevinB (31 Oct 2022)

Axe your Senate to a Provincially Elected one, and give it a bit more teeth, and you don't need to worry so much about the imbalance in the HoC with Ontario and Quebec, and the urban population.

That and burn down the PMO...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> We will see what happens with cannabis.  Also I am all for higher sin taxes, and we should do the same with sex work.  Open it up, regulate it and tax the crap out of it.
> 
> As for MAID, like it or not, it is what some people want.  As long as it stays the sound mind choice of the patient I am happy.  Who am I to tell someone no you aren't allowed to die yet ?  Your body your choice, right ?


Exactly. If they want it badly enough, they'll do it themselves. Nobody is going to make that decision for them before they are ready. I also wonder what these deaths will be classed as. Technically, it is suicide. However that is a term that would be to harsh when the numbers come in. So what do they class it as? Assisted death I suppose, but that would just be more government bafflegab and bullshit. It's still suicide. Just with help.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Drink box water bottle thingies


Good Lord that was embarrassing…and he wanted a seat on the UN Security Council… 🤦🏻

It’s still Harper’s fault…the part of him that came from Ontario… 😉


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Good Lord that was embarrassing…and he wanted a seat on the UN Security Council… 🤦🏻
> 
> It’s still Harper’s fault…the part of him that came from Ontario… 😉


Happens every time he opens his mouth without a script from butts or telford.


----------



## Good2Golf (31 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Sigh. You mean Toronto, Ottawa and Kingston. Not Ontario.


Well…not the Ottawa part that continues to vote in the CPC’s now leader.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> You have to remove the power of the PM to solely decide, on their own, who will be a SC judge or senator.


I was thinking a bit further on this. What I would like to see for these positions is the same type of Congressional hearings for those positions as the States. With input from every elected politician on the committee. Then have the committee vote the position to the candidate. It is the only way to expose the candidates ties, lies and malfeasance before we give them one of the highest jobs in the land that will affect the majority of the population.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Well…not the Ottawa part that continues to vote in the CPC’s now leader.


A pleasant change.


----------



## KevinB (31 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I was thinking a bit further on this. What I would like to see for these positions is the same type of Congressional hearings for those positions as the States. With input from every elected politician on the committee. Then have the committee vote the position to the candidate. It is the only way to expose the candidates ties, lies and malfeasance before we give them one of the highest jobs in the land that will affect the majority of the population.


You mean like how well it works down here?


----------



## OldSolduer (31 Oct 2022)

The solution is simple - Hockey. We need a Team Canada representative of every gender (how many?), region and official languages. 

They may win nothing - but it will be diverse and inclusive!!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

KevinB said:


> You mean like how well it works down here?


Not exactly Kev. We'd inevitably rip the system down there apart and make it 'Canadian.' However, instead of His Nibs deciding what friend to give the job to, all Canadians can see who the person is, where their loyalties lay and decisions they have made in the past. These people are making laws that bind us. Every Canadian should be intimately informed on who this is that is putting these laws in place that affect us. Not just a press release from the PMO congratulating someone most of us have never heard about.


----------



## The Bread Guy (31 Oct 2022)

One problem with introducing _partisan_ politics into choosing judges is that it's all well and good when you agree with the politicians putting them into place.  I suspect there might be calls for changes if a government one _doesn't_ like gets its turn to pack the bench.  

There _has_ to be a more arms-length system for picking judges, but be careful what you wish for re:  parliamentary committee interrogations of would-be jurists.


----------



## dapaterson (31 Oct 2022)

My proposal would be a restructured Senate, with each province guaranteed six seats, each territory three, and forty more divided by population (always rounding up - so more like 53 additional seats).  Senators would be elected in provincial elections - based on popular vote of the provincial parties, with half at risk every provincial election.

Puts provincial representation in Parliament, plus gives some security of tenure for a longer term perspective.  Plus encourages provincial participation in elections - even if your riding is guaranteed to elect a party you disagree with, your vote is counted to determine your Senate representation.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> One problem with introducing _partisan_ politics into choosing judges is that it's all well and good when you agree with the politicians putting them into place.  I suspect there might be calls for changes if a government one _doesn't_ like gets its turn to pack the bench.
> 
> There _has_ to be a more arms-length system for picking judges, but be careful what you wish for re:  parliamentary committee interrogations of would-be jurists.


Why? If they are good, proper and fair, then they have nothing to hide. I feel that it is our right to know the intimate details about what drives their decisions. They aren't special or omnipotent. They are just another person applying for good high paying government job. We are paying them, they work for us, not the PMO, they affect the way we live and how we live. I want to know everything professional about the person that holds the keys to my freedom and laws. A simple look at their latest decisions give me cause to worry. Especially when our vaunted, hand picked justices just said that paedos and other sex offenders no longer have to be registered as sex offenders when convicted. What next? No DNA data bank of violent and sexual predators? Now you can have a paedo, rapist, peeping Tom next door to your young family and you have no idea what danger lives there anymore. That's why they should be vetted by committee. Exactly because of those  judges we knew nothing about. It's a stretch, but trudeau and the grits have connections to people convicted of these crimes. Maybe they said they don't like the scrutiny they get and asked trudeau to look into it?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

And term limits on senators, maybe MPs and SC Judges also.


----------



## Navy_Pete (31 Oct 2022)

I'm going to go out on a limb and go the other direction; democracy isn't working at all, bring on Zog for PM! No partisan political divisions, no federal/provincial/local splits of responsibility, just one leader backed up by overwhelming power and literal invincibility.

Benevolent dictatorship for everyone!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (31 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and go the other direction; democracy isn't working at all, bring on Zog for PM! No partisan political divisions, no federal/provincial/local splits of responsibility, just one leader backed up by overwhelming power and literal invincibility.
> 
> Benevolent dictatorship for everyone!


We already have that. You spelled trudeau wrong.


----------



## brihard (31 Oct 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Why? If they are good, proper and fair, then they have nothing to hide. I feel that it is our right to know the intimate details about what drives their decisions. They aren't special or omnipotent. They are just another person applying for good high paying government job. We are paying them, they work for us, not the PMO, they affect the way we live and how we live. I want to know everything professional about the person that holds the keys to my freedom and laws. A simple look at their latest decisions give me cause to worry. Especially when our vaunted, hand picked justices just said that paedos and other sex offenders no longer have to be registered as sex offenders when convicted. What next? No DNA data bank of violent and sexual predators? Now you can have a paedo, rapist, peeping Tom next door to your young family and you have no idea what danger lives there anymore. That's why they should be vetted by committee. Exactly because of those  judges we knew nothing about. It's a stretch, but trudeau and the grits have connections to people convicted of these crimes. Maybe they said they don't like the scrutiny they get and asked trudeau to look into it?


Uh… That’s not what that SCC case realy means at all. The decision struck down 2011 legislation that took away crown and judicial discretion to seek registration and made it mandatory for any and all sexual offences. Have we not had previous discussions on this board about how ‘sexual assault’ as a criminal offence may be getting applied in an overly broad manner? All this decision does is allow judges or crown prosecutors to make judgment calls when the facts fit. This doesn’t mean paedophiles will be off the hook to register.






						Supreme Court of Canada - 39360
					






					www.scc-csc.ca
				




As for appointments to the SCC, beginning with the most recent appointee (and she is, IMHO, _very_ highly qualified), SCC justices are now recommended by an independent advisory board who publish various records including the candidate questionnaire. I encourage anyone concerned about the process to give this a read.






						Supreme Court of Canada Appointment Process - 2022
					

Office of the Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs Canada




					www.fja.gc.ca
				




I’m not convinced that taking our essential appointments and subjecting them to the same nonsense partisan theatrics that we see in ‘Question’ Period will be to our country’s advantage. The utter gong show America makes of such proceedings is, to me, far more cautionary than inspirational.


----------



## Remius (31 Oct 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb and go the other direction; democracy isn't working at all, bring on Zog for PM! No partisan political divisions, no federal/provincial/local splits of responsibility, just one leader backed up by overwhelming power and literal invincibility.
> 
> Benevolent dictatorship for everyone!


Plato would agree with you.

Aristocracy with benevolent philosopher king being his gvt of choice


----------



## Kirkhill (31 Oct 2022)

Remius said:


> Plato would agree with you.
> 
> Aristocracy with benevolent philosopher king being his gvt of choice



And where are Athens and the Tyrants now?  Meanwhile the Barbarians are still with us.

Up the Barbarians!


----------



## KevinB (31 Oct 2022)

dapaterson said:


> My proposal would be a restructured Senate, with each province guaranteed six seats, each territory three, and forty more divided by population (always rounding up - so more like 53 additional seats).  Senators would be elected in provincial elections - based on popular vote of the provincial parties, with half at risk every provincial election.


You have the HoC for population.  
   Besides with the 6 / province and 3 for territory, if you dropped the 40 others you could get rid of a few million a year with them and their staff. 



dapaterson said:


> Puts provincial representation in Parliament, plus gives some security of tenure for a longer term perspective.  Plus encourages provincial participation in elections - even if your riding is guaranteed to elect a party you disagree with, your vote is counted to determine your Senate representation.


----------



## Brad Sallows (31 Oct 2022)

Subjecting appointments to review by a body other than the House would be more democratic and would safeguard against abuse (of any parts of the process that aren't "written down").


----------



## Fishbone Jones (1 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Subjecting appointments to review by a body other than the House would be more democratic and would safeguard against abuse (of any parts of the process that aren't "written down").


I agree Brad, but who would decide who to employ, what parameters and what info would they be privy to? Currently, we know what the makeup would be and that a liberal shell company would be benefitting from millions of our tax dollars.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (1 Nov 2022)

Lumber said:


> This is all kind of for not, isn't it? I mean, scream and reveal all you want, but even if the Liberals are as bad as everyone says they are, and the Liberals lose and we see another 8-10 years of Conservative governments, the Liberals will be back soon enough. They aren't going anywhere.


100% true. The Conservatives are also not that different fundamentally from the Liberals, more a couple differences on a few talking points than a overall huge difference. Historically the Liberals and Conservatives were closer on platforms than the Liberals to the NDP, it is only the current PM which has shifted the Liberal party so far from center.

The hope would be if the Liberals get thrashed at elections they dump JT and realign themselves back to the center instead of this out lefting the NDP thing they have going on. As much as the left likes to point out that 60% of Canadians voted 'left' I would argue it is more 60% voted center with 10-30% respectively voting left or right. I know several people who are diehard Liberal supporters and have voted Liberal for years talking about voting Conservative just because they do not like where JT is bringing that party.


----------



## The Bread Guy (1 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Why? If they are good, proper and fair, then they have nothing to hide ...


Well, a lot of politics, like the meaning of "good, proper and fair", is in the eye of the beholder.

How many people who, say, hate PMJT would trust questions & interpretations from Liberal or NDP committee members vs. those from Conservative members?   And how many of those haters would be OK with a Liberal-stacked committee ok'ing someone the haters didn't like?

How many Anything But Team Blue people would trust or believe questions/interpretations from Conservative members?  And how many of those haters would be OK with a Conservative-stacked committee ok'ing someone the haters didn't like?

Think of any other appointment that's already done this way - winning team boosters'll say it's all on the up-and-up, winning team haters'll say it's all biased & crooked.  Just like politics runs now.


----------



## brihard (1 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Subjecting appointments to review by a body other than the House would be more democratic and would safeguard against abuse (of any parts of the process that aren't "written down").


So again, like the Independent Advisory Board for Supreme Court appointments that I linked to a few posts up? The product of their work in the appointment of Justice O’Bonsawain is available to look at, and the product of that independent advisory’s first use has been the appointment of an excellent jurist.


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Nov 2022)

Darth Vader please.


----------



## torg003 (1 Nov 2022)

I sense a disturbance in the "Force".


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Nov 2022)

torg003 said:


> I sense a disturbance in the "Force".


With Darth at least you know where you stand. 👍🏻


----------



## torg003 (1 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> With Darth at least you know where you stand. 👍🏻


Or kneel, as the case may be.


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Nov 2022)

No, not an independent advisory board.  The Senate.


----------



## Navy_Pete (1 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> No, not an independent advisory board.  The Senate.


So replace the  all part advisory board made up of elected (and theoretically accountable) MPs with an advisory board from the unaccountable all party Senators? 

The Senate is a bit less accountable/transparent than HoC so not sure how that will be an improvement.

Honestly think the current advisory board does a pretty good job, our judiciary similarly does a good job at keeping whatever political leanings they have out of their decisions.


----------



## Brad Sallows (1 Nov 2022)

The criteria for designing government should never be "this does a pretty good job right now".  Any small group is liable to capture by special interests, given enough time.

The whole point is to require two core pieces of the government - in this case Parliament (via the PM) and Senate - to come to agreement on major appointments.  That Senate is unelected is still a weakness, but it's a lot harder to co-opt a Senate majority than a small majority of some board.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> So replace the  all part advisory board made up of elected (and theoretically accountable) MPs with an advisory board from the unaccountable all party Senators?
> 
> The Senate is a bit less accountable/transparent than HoC so not sure how that will be an improvement.
> 
> Honestly think the current advisory board does a pretty good job, our judiciary similarly does a good job at keeping whatever political leanings they have out of their decisions.



It's OK, our national policies have already been hijacked by several unelected, unaccountable, self-appointed international organizations that have been roundly criticized (for decades) for their ineffectiveness and borderline criminality.

Here's just two.... off the top of my head....

UNDRIP:


			United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples | United Nations For Indigenous Peoples
		


The Paris Climate Agreement:


			https://unfccc.int/process-and-meetings/the-paris-agreement/the-paris-agreement


----------



## Navy_Pete (1 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> It's OK, our national policies have already been hijacked by several unelected, unaccountable, self-appointed international organizations that have been roundly criticized (for decades) for their ineffectiveness and borderline criminality.
> 
> Here's just two.... off the top of my head....
> 
> ...


Well, not really, none of those commitments mean anything until they get implemented by legislation, and it's still entirely within Canada's decision in how they meet it. The UN can just scold us if they don't like it, and can otherwise be ignored with no consequence.

The current independent advisory board is working well, and is an actual useful function being performed by MPs, so I would think we would want to actively encourage that and hope it's catching.


----------



## OldSolduer (1 Nov 2022)

torg003 said:


> Or kneel, as the case may be.


Or get Force choked. That would not be fun 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Colin Parkinson (1 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I agree Brad, but who would decide who to employ, what parameters and what info would they be privy to? Currently, we know what the makeup would be and that a liberal shell company would be benefitting from millions of our tax dollars.


Well that wouldn't change much.


----------



## daftandbarmy (1 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Well, not really, *none of those commitments mean anything until they get implemented by legislation*, and it's still entirely within Canada's decision in how they meet it. The UN can just scold us if they don't like it, and can otherwise be ignored with no consequence.
> 
> The current independent advisory board is working well, and is an actual useful function being performed by MPs, so I would think we would want to actively encourage that and hope it's catching.



Like in BC?






						Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Act
					

The Declaration Act (2019) establishes the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples as the Province’s framework for reconciliation, as called for by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s Calls to Action. The Act creates a path forward that respects the human rights of...



					www2.gov.bc.ca


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## torg003 (1 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Or get Force choked. That would not be fun 🤦‍♂️


Depends on what someone's into, they might like it.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (2 Nov 2022)

I wasn't sure where this should go. Mods can move if required. Black and Rex destroy the liberal and NDP narrative and point fingers exactly where they should be pointed. They lay out some of the policies and idiocy that are plaguing us and other countries. Stopping us from prospering and moving ahead technologically, education and  puts a dagger in the heart of today's legacy media. Much of what they discuss, is also in this thread. It's about an hour and a half, and well worth the watch if you think we are going to hell in a handbasket. They explain why.


----------



## Halifax Tar (3 Nov 2022)

This is good news. 









						Federal student loans to become interest free, Freeland says in fiscal update
					

Eliminating the interest on the federal portion of government  student and apprentice loans would save the average borrower $410 a year, the federal government said in its fall fiscal update




					www.theglobeandmail.com


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## Brad Sallows (3 Nov 2022)

It's terrible news.  Why should the taxpayer make gifts to people who are the most likely to have a high lifetime earning potential?  There's no magic wall between money students spend on education expenses and money spent on liquor, cell phones, etc.


----------



## Remius (3 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> It's terrible news.  Why should the taxpayer make gifts to people who are the most likely to have a high lifetime earning potential?  There's no magic wall between money students spend on education expenses and money spent on liquor, cell phones, etc.


It isn’t debt forgiveness.  Just making the debt interest free.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (3 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> It isn’t debt forgiveness.  Just making the debt interest free.


Not from a bank. Someone has to pay the interest.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> It's terrible news.  Why should the taxpayer make gifts to people who are the most likely to have a high lifetime earning potential?  There's no magic wall between money students spend on education expenses and money spent on liquor, cell phones, etc.



That's what votes cost these days


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Not from a bank. Someone has to pay the interest.


The Govermnent will.  They are taking on the debt so we don’t have to.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> The Govermnent will.  They are taking on the debt so we don’t have to.


Bahahahahahahaha you are a wit, sir!!!


----------



## Good2Golf (4 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Bahahahahahahaha you are a wit, sir!!!


And I keep “drink box paper bottle thingy like a bottle but a box in paper” in reserve when people think the logic is less flowing than the “we took on the debt for them” assininity.


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> The Govermnent will.  They are taking on the debt so we don’t have to.


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> It's terrible news.  Why should the taxpayer make gifts to people who are the most likely to have a high lifetime earning potential?  There's no magic wall between money students spend on education expenses and money spent on liquor, cell phones, etc.



I don't agree with free post secondary education, but I also don't think 21 year old's should be starting out life 6 figures in debt, because they tried to make a good choice. 

Part of the fix could be looking at what actually needs to be a university degree IMHO.  Medical/Dental, Law and Engineering that should pretty much be it.


----------



## Remius (4 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Not from a bank. Someone has to pay the interest.


I thought they said federal student loans?   I am pretty sure those loans are not bank loans.  And it’s only the the federal portion of interest that is being eliminated.   (The loans are jointly funded by fed and prov funding).

This is a good thing even on a good day.   It’s isn’t free tuition nor is it debt forgiveness.  But it will help a bit for those servicing debt to government.


----------



## Edward Campbell (4 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> I thought they said federal student loans?   _I am pretty sure those loans are not bank loans._  And it’s only the the federal portion of interest that is being eliminated.   (The loans are jointly funded by fed and prov funding).
> 
> This is a good thing even on a good day.   It’s isn’t free tuition nor is it debt forgiveness.  But it will help a bit for those servicing debt to government.


The Gov't of Canada is running multi-billion dollar deficits for as long as anyone can imagine. Most of what it spends is funded by loans and all those loans (bonds) have interest due.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (4 Nov 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> The Gov't of Canada is running multi-billion dollar deficits for as long as anyone can imagine. Most of what it spends is funded by loans and all those loans (bonds) have interest due.


The sovereign debt burden in the West needs to be reigned in.  It was fine when GDP growth was still outpacing the debt burden but that time is over.

The Debt Burden has actually been slowly creeping up everywhere since 2008 as Central Banks used historically low interest rates to stimulate economic growth.

The problem was, they had an opportunity to turn off the taps but they never did because people got addicted to cheap debt:






The US Government has been walking the tightest of margins since around 2012 when they should have been reigning in stimulus.

We have been doing the same in Canada but our situation is even more precarious because of our high levels of Household Debt:






They've just stopped talking about it at this point but it's gotten way worse during COVID.  The HH Debt to GDP Ratio is now sitting at 181% in Canada:









						Canada’s Household Debt Ratio Is Climbing Once Again, Here’s Why It’s A Problem - Better Dwelling
					

Canadian household debt is climbing much faster than income, and that's going to limit their ability to respond in a crisis.




					betterdwelling.com
				





The irony of all of this is that many of the current issues in the World:  Ukraine, Taiwan, sabre rattling by OPEC+, Russia, China, etc. Is all basically a direct consequence of our economic weakness.

IMO, we've reached the point of decadence and our enemies see blood in the water and feel emboldened.  

I am not hopeful for our future.


----------



## KevinB (4 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I don't agree with free post secondary education, but I also don't think 21 year old's should be starting out life 6 figures in debt, because they tried to make a good choice.


1) Gap Year working 
2) working in the summer. 



Halifax Tar said:


> Part of the fix could be looking at what actually needs to be a university degree IMHO.  Medical/Dental, Law and Engineering that should pretty much be it.


Teachers? 
Various researchers/Statisticians? 

The issue isn’t who should have post secondary education, the issue is young adults need to make choices like real adults.


----------



## suffolkowner (4 Nov 2022)

The interest free loan covers apprenticeships as well does it not? Its not just for university?


----------



## Remius (4 Nov 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> The interest free loan covers apprenticeships as well does it not? Its not just for university?


Yes


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> 1) Gap Year working
> 2) working in the summer.
> 
> 
> ...



I am not sure summer jobs can cover the costs of a "higher education" anymore.  But I have not don't a cost analysis. 

I don't think Teachers need to be trained by universities.  They used to be done by provincial teachers colleges.  Universities need to reigned in too.  They have become a business. 

Depending on the sciences behind the research some could be trained through CCs.  And I have no idea why statisticians need a university degree.


----------



## dapaterson (4 Nov 2022)

A secondary effect is to make military service less attractive.  Getting education or training paid by the military is less of a selling point now that the d by will be interest free (although being paid to receive that ed / trg remains a carrot to dangle).


----------



## KevinB (4 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I am not sure summer jobs can cover the costs of a "higher education" anymore.  But I have not don't a cost analysis.
> 
> I don't think Teachers need to be trained by universities.  They used to be done by provincial teachers colleges.  Universities need to reigned in too.  They have become a business.
> 
> Depending on the sciences behind the research some could be trained through CCs.  And I have no idea why statisticians need a university degree.


Why does a Lawyer need a degree, just have them solely go to a Law College… Why get a degree prior to Law School? 

The entire concept of post secondary education is designed around building a more well rounded individual.  There is nothing wrong with that as a general principle, the fact that post secondary education is expensive isn’t by itself an issue either.  

Compared to schools down here, Canadian Universities are cheap, so I’m really not seeing the issue with the costs of Canadian Post Secondary education.  

When you factor in that most University graduates earn more than non University educated personnel, the initial upfront cost is a small drop in the bucket.  


Most Universities run a Fall/Winter Sept-April curriculum, and some also have a Summer . 
   Ignoring Summer so one can work full time you have May - Aug or 4 months.  
   Then 8 months during the school year where one can have a part time job.   I’m not saying one would be revenue neutral doing that, but one could make a decent dent in the costs by doing that.  

That is also assuming that there is no parental assistance.  

Frankly I don’t see an issue with people needing to work to gain money to get post secondary education, and yes I do think that private education facilities do need to be run as a business, with the goal of any profits being used to better develop the University/College (but I also think that those facilities should be non-profits, and not allowed to run as a for profit business).


----------



## dimsum (4 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> Why does a Lawyer need a degree, just have them solely go to a Law College… Why get a degree prior to Law School?


This is a North American thing - and even then, you only need 3 years of a 4 year degree.  You don't need to have a completed degree.  Same with the LSAT (by and large).

Law school is undergrad (well, it's "undergrad" here too but I mean straight out of high school) in the UK and Australia for sure, and I think most of the rest of the world.  That is one of the big reasons why several Australian universities advertise so heavily to Canadians - they have "Canadian Law" courses at Bond University, for example - and they don't require an LSAT or a degree.  



Halifax Tar said:


> I don't agree with free post secondary education, but I also don't think 21 year old's should be starting out life 6 figures in debt, because they tried to make a good choice.


Isn't the the fed govt talking about not charging _interest_ on the fed student loans, not giving people free post-secondary?  Those are two very different things.


----------



## Halifax Tar (4 Nov 2022)

dimsum said:


> Isn't the the fed govt talking about not charging _interest_ on the fed student loans, not giving people free post-secondary?  Those are two very different things.



You are correct.  I was just stating my position.


----------



## Remius (4 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> Why does a Lawyer need a degree, just have them solely go to a Law College… Why get a degree prior to Law School?



Agreed.  I mentioned this in another thread about how this current generation got screwed over because a previous generation decided we needed to accredit everything and moved away from OJT style training and learning.  Also making some professions requiring masters when undergraduate degrees were acceptable before.  Physiotherapy for example.  But yes,  maybe we can remove a layer of undergraduate study time and energy.  But…undergraduate programs are cash cows for universities.


KevinB said:


> The entire concept of post secondary education is designed around building a more well rounded individual.  There is nothing wrong with that as a general principle, the fact that post secondary education is expensive isn’t by itself an issue either.
> 
> Compared to schools down here, Canadian Universities are cheap, so I’m really not seeing the issue with the costs of Canadian Post Secondary education.


Canadian universities aren’t cheaper per say, just more subsidized.


KevinB said:


> When you factor in that most University graduates earn more than non University educated personnel, the initial upfront cost is a small drop in the bucket.


Might depend on the program.


KevinB said:


> Most Universities run a Fall/Winter Sept-April curriculum, and some also have a Summer .
> Ignoring Summer so one can work full time you have May - Aug or 4 months.
> Then 8 months during the school year where one can have a part time job.   I’m not saying one would be revenue neutral doing that, but one could make a decent dent in the costs by doing that.
> 
> That is also assuming that there is no parental assistance.


True.  I’m a firm believer that students should be entering the job market even on apart time basis.


KevinB said:


> Frankly I don’t see an issue with people needing to work to gain money to get post secondary education, and yes I do think that private education facilities do need to be run as a business, with the goal of any profits being used to better develop the University/College (but I also think that those facilities should be non-profits, and not allowed to run as a for profit business).



At the end of the day, I’m not a supporter of free tuition but I don’t see a problem with no interest loans to get students educated.


----------



## KevinB (4 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> At the end of the day, I’m not a supporter of free tuition but I don’t see a problem with no interest loans to get students educated.


The money comes from somewhere - in this case it just kicks the can down to the taxpayer, and in the long run isn't beneficial to anyone.

If you didn't have massive government debt and a spiraling deficit, then yes, I would agree that Government no interest loans with the surplus would not be a bad thing.  

BUT...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Nov 2022)

If they are going to give interest free loans for university, they should also drop the tax on those that don't use the loans. There are forward thinking people out there that actually plan their career, starting in high school and put money aside. Why should they be penalized because they worked and pay cash? Those are the students that actually take engineering, medical, law or others of the like. These people don't protest, take interpretive dance or how Lucy's albino monkey brother started slavery and oppression of the others. They are too busy learning.

If we want to stop our headlong hurdle off the cliff, universities have to stop offering useless liberal art programs for university credits.

My cousin paid for all his post secondary education, as a teacher, by riding a garbage truck all summer in our 90F weather.


----------



## Brad Sallows (4 Nov 2022)

Interest is what covers risks (defaults) and opportunity cost (something else profitable or more useful that might be done).  Interest-free is a gift.

Not many people in Canada graduate "6 figures" in debt.  If they do, they've either made very poor decisions or embarked on a career with a high lifetime earning potential.  We don't really need to provide more comfortable young adulthoods for people who are going to end up living in the finer neighbourhoods of Canada's cities.

First thing for governments to do is stop throwing money at people who don't urgently need it.  What a help it would be if more Canadians were fiscally/economically literate and could recognize the idiocy of these policies.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (4 Nov 2022)

Our daughter has done most of her courses online through Thompson River University and now is doing some inperson at Cap U. We started putting money aside before they were born. My plan was to send my youngest to RMC, do a stint in the military and then do whatever she wanted, but diabetes squashed that. When we were doing the parenting courses and told people that was our plan they looked at us if we had two heads. The Professional Associations work hand in hand with the universities here to exclude people who come from aboard from working. Also I see so many jobs that require a degree, but don't pay enough to warrant. A lot of people who write the job specs come from university and they can't fathom any other form of education. Having spent the last 20 years in environmental reviews and permitting, which is dominated by university types, they are very discriminatory to anyone that does not have a degree. 
Funny when were reviewing shipping, I suggested the Ships Pilots tell the review panel (100 people) what it takes to become a Ships Pilot. The room was in shock in how much more difficult and time consuming it was over any degree.


----------



## Remius (4 Nov 2022)

It isn’t implausible that some people could accrue 5 figure debt levels for schooling in Canada.

That can be crippling enough for some.


----------



## Brad Sallows (4 Nov 2022)

Max out your student loans.
Live responsibly and invest whatever is left (make a profit).
Pay back the loans in future, depreciated, dollars (make a profit).

Nice teat if you can latch onto it.


----------



## RangerRay (6 Nov 2022)

This might be relevant to this topic in that one of the things indicating the decline in the Liberal Party is the lack of state capacity to deal with even the most mundane things that are out of the ordinary. Andrew Potter posits that lack of state capacity is correlated to how much people trust each other and trust their government in a society. 









						Andrew Potter: Trust, state capacity, and the meaning of ArriveCAN
					

The crisis of state capacity can’t be separated from the more general crisis of expertise and of the legitimacy of the state and the rule of law.




					theline.substack.com


----------



## Navy_Pete (6 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Depending on the sciences behind the research some could be trained through CCs.  And I have no idea why statisticians need a university degree.


 Stats is a specialization of higher maths, and also incorporated into a lot of other fields (engineering, business, medicine etc). You also really need to understand the subject to understand what stats are meaningful for whatever you are doing. People get doctorates in stats for a reason.

The mechanics of taking a standard data set and spitting something out is pretty easy; it's the science behind creating a data set, trying to remove bias from data collection, and then manipulating the data to output the data you need is hard. College gets into some of that for some specific applications, but it's a lot more general in university so you can take it and apply it to whatever application you need it for, and sometimes that gets pretty heavy.


----------



## Navy_Pete (6 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> Interest is what covers risks (defaults) and opportunity cost (something else profitable or more useful that might be done).  Interest-free is a gift.
> 
> Not many people in Canada graduate "6 figures" in debt.  If they do, they've either made very poor decisions or embarked on a career with a high lifetime earning potential.  We don't really need to provide more comfortable young adulthoods for people who are going to end up living in the finer neighbourhoods of Canada's cities.
> 
> First thing for governments to do is stop throwing money at people who don't urgently need it.  What a help it would be if more Canadians were fiscally/economically literate and could recognize the idiocy of these policies.


Doctors have 8 years of school, with the tuition being pretty crazy for med school, and will routinely hit six figures in debt. Undergrad alone is 40-60k in costs, and that's a lot more than you can earn working full time in the summer. And for people that don't have a hometown school that can't live at home it's even higher.

I'm a big fan of things like forgivable student loans for doctors if they do things like set up family practices for a certain amount of time in communities with shortages though, vice arbitrarily giving everyone free education. I think there are options now for everyone to have the opportunity, but people old enough to go to college/university are old enough to take the consequences of their decision, which should include the costs.


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> It isn’t implausible that some people could accrue 5 figure debt levels for schooling in Canada.
> 
> That can be crippling enough for some.



For thousands....

"I think we have to remember there's a cost to graduating a generation into debt. The costs are just sort of downloaded on the students and their families, many of whom are far less in a position to actually bear that cost than the federal government," she told CTV's Your Morning on Friday.

Shaker pointed to the findings from a 2018 study in Ontario, which found that one of six bankruptcies in the province involved student loans.

"So, if you extrapolate that across the rest of the country, we're talking about 22,000 former students declaring bankruptcy in 2018 alone, at least in part because of student debt," Shaker said.

A 2019 report from the Parliamentary Budget Officer found that in order to eliminate tuition and forgive debt for graduates earning less than $70,000, it would cost $16 billion in the first year, $13 billion in the second year and $10 billion annually after that.









						Should Canada forgive student loans?
					

Last week, U.S. President Joe Biden announced his administration would be forgiving up to US$20,000 in student loans for low- and middle-income borrowers. The move has sparked debate over whether Canada should do the same, but experts are divided over whether cancelling student debt is the best...




					www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## suffolkowner (6 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I am not sure summer jobs can cover the costs of a "higher education" anymore.  But I have not don't a cost analysis.
> 
> I don't think Teachers need to be trained by universities.  They used to be done by provincial teachers colleges.  Universities need to reigned in too.  They have become a business.
> 
> Depending on the sciences behind the research some could be trained through CCs.  And I have no idea why statisticians need a university degree.


There is a lot of program purging that could be done from universities IMO


Navy_Pete said:


> Stats is a specialization of higher maths, and also incorporated into a lot of other fields (engineering, business, medicine etc). You also really need to understand the subject to understand what stats are meaningful for whatever you are doing. People get doctorates in stats for a reason.
> 
> The mechanics of taking a standard data set and spitting something out is pretty easy; it's the science behind creating a data set, trying to remove bias from data collection, and then manipulating the data to output the data you need is hard. College gets into some of that for some specific applications, but it's a lot more general in university so you can take it and apply it to whatever application you need it for, and sometimes that gets pretty heavy.


We always ran our novel research work through a statistician to develop the proper analysis. Its CYA gives you somone to blame


----------



## Navy_Pete (6 Nov 2022)

suffolkowner said:


> We always ran our novel research work through a statistician to develop the proper analysis. Its CYA gives you somone to blame


Having a specialist do peer review on the analysis bit never hurts; sometimes correlation can be a bit more tenuous than people think.

Predictive analytics and all kinds of other applications though can get massively complicated as well so it's a lot more complicated than what most people see outputs for in newspaper articles with basic population info.


----------



## Rifleman62 (7 Nov 2022)

How about removing School Taxes on the Property Taxes of those over 65 YOA?


----------



## Weinie (7 Nov 2022)

Rifleman62 said:


> How about removing School Taxes on the Property Taxes of those over 65 YOA?


Except those folks that you fund in school eventually  get jobs and consequently pay taxes that fund our pensions. It's a giant Ponzi scheme, but it keeps food on your table.


----------



## Rifleman62 (7 Nov 2022)

Agree, but a lot of 65+ having been paying with after tax dollars for decades and decades. If you where fortunate to own a residence at age e.g. 30, you paid school taxes for 35 years plus the longer you live.

It will never happen anyway.


----------



## dapaterson (7 Nov 2022)

Does that mean I can stop paying taxes to cover OAS for seniors, since I'm not benefiting from it...


----------



## FSTO (7 Nov 2022)

A fairy tale view from the Tuffnel Saskatchewan.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1589614126078521344


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## Eaglelord17 (7 Nov 2022)

Rifleman62 said:


> Agree, but a lot of 65+ having been paying with after tax dollars for decades and decades. If you where fortunate to own a residence at age e.g. 30, you paid school taxes for 35 years plus the longer you live.
> 
> It will never happen anyway.


Considering that same generation never fully paid its way and is why we have national debt in the first place, they can keep paying until they day they die. 

Just because you’ve paid taxes for decades doesn’t mean you paid enough to break even.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> Considering that same generation never fully paid its way and is why we have national debt in the first place, they can keep paying until they day they die.
> 
> Just because you’ve paid taxes for decades doesn’t mean you paid enough to break even.


Could you get any more snarky? Please this not what this is about. "Never fully paid its way? " Really? 

It was a legitimate question and that response is undeserved.


----------



## Rifleman62 (7 Nov 2022)

> Does that mean I can stop paying taxes to cover OAS for seniors, since I'm not benefiting from it...



No, speaking about School Taxes only. 

You are paying taxes to cover OAS for seniors and yourself, as a future recipient, now as it is included in your income tax.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (7 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Could you get any more snarky? Please this not what this is about. "Never fully paid its way? " Really?
> 
> It was a legitimate question and that response is undeserved.


It is also a legitimate answer. If I borrow 20$ and pay back 15$, just because I have spent a long time paying back that 15$ should I not still have to pay the other 5$? 

Before Trudeau Sr. got in we had very little national debt. After we added all these social programs to our government and didn’t raise taxes enough to pay for them all we got our national debt. So yes didn’t pay their way is how I word it as if there is more debt after your done than when you showed up, you never paid it all off. 

I will admit I am more than a little bitter with the boomer generation. They screwed up a lot of stuff which my generation shall have to fix, but its going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The trades, the healthcare system, the housing market, we are going to see complete collapses of these systems most likely in the next 20 years unless drastic action is taken. And I am not seeing anyone leading the charge on fixing them, only attempting bandaids on a large flesh wound. 

When they start suggesting tax cuts for the things they never paid off, I don’t look too kindly upon it.


----------



## Kat Stevens (7 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> It is also a legitimate answer. If I borrow 20$ and pay back 15$, just because I have spent a long time paying back that 15$ should I not still have to pay the other 5$?
> 
> Before Trudeau Sr. got in we had very little national debt. After we added all these social programs to our government and didn’t raise taxes enough to pay for them all we got our national debt. So yes didn’t pay their way is how I word it as if there is more debt after your done than when you showed up, you never paid it all off.
> 
> ...


Holy bat, fuck man! When exactly is it do you think you’ll pay off all the social engineering experiments your generations government has conjured up over the last couple of years? My great grandkids will be old before there’s even a dent in the current load. WE didn’t make the mess, THEY (politicians) did. Grip yourself ffs…


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Nov 2022)

If we don't get our financial house in order, anyone receiving pensions, OAS, CCP or government pensions can look forward to clawback or loss. When they go broke, so do we. No government payment are safe.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> It is also a legitimate answer. If I borrow 20$ and pay back 15$, just because I have spent a long time paying back that 15$ should I not still have to pay the other 5$?
> 
> Before Trudeau Sr. got in we had very little national debt. After we added all these social programs to our government and didn’t raise taxes enough to pay for them all we got our national debt. So yes didn’t pay their way is how I word it as if there is more debt after your done than when you showed up, you never paid it all off.
> 
> ...


Who is responsible for all the crap happening today then? The out of control spending, social engineering, etc? Should we blame that then, on your generation who are currently in control? Or do we skip yours and blame it on the up and coming.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (7 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Holy bat, fuck man! When exactly is it do you think you’ll pay off all the social engineering experiments your generations government has conjured up over the last couple of years? My great grandkids will be old before there’s even a dent in the current load. WE didn’t make the mess, THEY (politicians) did. Grip yourself ffs…


And who voted THEY in? The answer? WE did. 

Look I take responsibility for the garbage the current government is doing even though they didn’t get my vote. Its a democracy and as such as a voter we are responsible for the actions of said government. I am also one of the few who directly advocate for a increase in taxes or a cut in services until we start paying off debt. 

The reason being is people don’t get mad and demand change until they start actually paying for it. This pushing it off on the next generation is a garbage mentality that should go the way of the dodo. 



Fishbone Jones said:


> Who is responsible for all the crap happening today then? The out of control spending, social engineering, etc? Should we blame that then, on your generation who are currently in control? Or do we skip yours and blame it on the up and coming.



Yours and mine, both are able to vote and control what is happening currently. Though my generation is just starting to move into the government (Millennial) its Gen X and the boomers who are mainly in it currently. 

Too many people dismiss the blame for the actions of government. If people saw it more as our problem to fix instead of just pretending we only deal with the consequences things might go a lot smoother and we might actually find solutions to problems.


----------



## mariomike (7 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I will admit I am more than a little bitter with the boomer generation.



"We didn't start the fire
It was always burning since the world's been turning"


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Nov 2022)

The Boomers' answer has already been provided by progressives.  All that spending was investment, and made things the awesome way they are today!  You're welcome!  (I am skeptical, but it's beyond proof or disproof anyways.)  It's not as if the people inheriting the situation they deplore are not themselves spending future revenues today.

Each new proposal for more spending (at any level of government) seems to have a cheering section, few of whom ask how much it will cost, and fewer who ask how it will be funded.  "Those poor people deserve X!"  It's trivially obvious that wants exceed means and that existing accumulated deficits (debts) are high and that interest rates may not be going back to the ahistorically low range we recently enjoyed.


----------



## daftandbarmy (8 Nov 2022)

Let them cancel Disney subscriptions....



KINSELLA: Out-of-touch Chrystia Freeland and her Disney gaffe​ 
Minister of finance thinks cutting cartoons will help Canadians with cost of living

It’s the cost of living, Ms. Freeland. And not Simpsons reruns on Disney. Canadians, from coast to coast to coast, are focused on how hard it is to get by.

Nanos: The top issue for Canadians is the state of the economy, far ahead of any other issue, with inflation not far behind. Abacus: 73% say the cost of living is the most important issue they’re facing — followed by economy (45%) and housing affordability (36%).

Also Abacus: When asked what inflation and rising interest rates have made “much more difficult” to get, half said food. Thirty-five per cent said housing. And 34% said energy — heating their home or fuelling their vehicle.









						KINSELLA: Out-of-touch Chrystia Freeland and her Disney gaffe
					

Let them eat cake. In fairness to Marie Antoinette, she probably didn't even say that.




					torontosun.com


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Let them cancel Disney subscriptions....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Let them eat cake.


----------



## Gunplumber (8 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Let them eat cake.


So why cant we just get every voter to spoil their ballot and no one can get voted in until there is a set of UNBREAKABLE rules that they have to abide by or the next party that got the most votes take over. We can make it so that they have to keep 50% of their promises that they made during the election or, yup, you guessed it, they are booted and the next party steps in to take over. No costly elections continuously and maybe they might start to take things seriously. Yeah I know I'm dreaming and the only thing that happens is that we will go bankrupt, and it will happen. Now i need to get a coffee and wake up and talk sensibly......


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## The Bread Guy (8 Nov 2022)

Rifleman62 said:


> ... You are paying taxes to cover OAS for seniors and yourself, as a future recipient, now as it is included in your income tax.


And as someone who has to live in a society tomorrow filled with/run by people being educated today, there's a case to be made that you're a "future recipient" of the education system.  Agree or disagree with how well the education system is working, there's a reason a lot of people say "young people are the future" - a future _we'll_ be living in, too.

And as others smarter than me have said up thread, statistically speaking, younger cohorts don't use as much health care as older cohorts.  If we believe the Canadian Medical Association, _"The average per-person spending on health care for Canadians aged 64 and below is $2,700. The average per-person spending on Canadians aged 65 and over is more than four times higher at $12,000."  _So, do we prorate health care costs by age?


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Nov 2022)

Rifleman62 said:


> No, speaking about School Taxes only.
> 
> You are paying taxes to cover OAS for seniors and yourself, as a future recipient, now as it is included in your income tax.



Let's keep our tax rates but let people select what they want their money going too  

We seem reasonable and well adjusted enough to have that option


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## Kat Stevens (8 Nov 2022)

The Bread Guy said:


> And as someone who has to live in a society tomorrow filled with/run by people being educated today, there's a case to be made that you're a "future recipient" of the education system.  Agree or disagree with how well the education system is working, there's a reason a lot of people say "young people are the future" - a future _we'll_ be living in, too.
> 
> And as others smarter than me have said up thread, statistically speaking, younger cohorts don't use as much health care as older cohorts.  If we believe the Canadian Medical Association, _"The average per-person spending on health care for Canadians aged 64 and below is $2,700. The average per-person spending on Canadians aged 65 and over is more than four times higher at $12,000."  _So, do we prorate health care costs by age?


Modified Logan's Run.  Mandatory MAID at 65, yeah baby! Get all us annoying old fucks who ruined everything out of the way before we start costing some REAL money. Shame we killed all the ice floes. I'm just about ready to pack 'er in anyway, the world isn't fun anymore.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> Modified Logan's Run.  Mandatory MAID at 65, yeah baby! Get all us annoying old fucks who ruined everything out of the way before we start costing some REAL money. Shame we killed all the ice floes. I'm just about ready to pack 'er in anyway, the world isn't fun anymore.



Ridiculous.

What does need to be accepted by the older generations is that they established various social systems and chronically underfunded them.  It doesn't matter who you voted for. 

Now that they really need these social systems they expect the working demographic to fix the problem for them. 

Personally, I think we have a demographic problem.  We have an upside down triangle WRT age.  

We should make the ageing generations comfortable and offer what we can to support and weather this storm.  But as the older generations disappear the financial and resource drain will subside.

It's a sad fact of life.  The world continues to spin after you're gone.  And we shouldnt be leveraging the future for short term solutions.


----------



## Weinie (8 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Ridiculous.
> 
> What does need to be accepted by the older generations is that they established various social systems and chronically underfunded them.  It doesn't matter who you voted for.
> 
> ...


I'm entitled to my entitlements.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Nov 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> It is also a legitimate answer. If I borrow 20$ and pay back 15$, just because I have spent a long time paying back that 15$ should I not still have to pay the other 5$?
> 
> Before Trudeau Sr. got in we had very little national debt. After we added all these social programs to our government and didn’t raise taxes enough to pay for them all we got our national debt. So yes didn’t pay their way is how I word it as if there is more debt after your done than when you showed up, you never paid it all off.
> 
> ...



Ever consider you’ll be if that age one day? Like many of us?

You’re quick to lay blame but many of us on here we’re not of voting age when PET introduced his “just society”.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Ever consider you’ll be if that age one day? Like many of us?
> 
> You’re quick to lay blame but many of us on here we’re not of voting age when PET introduced his “just society”.



Perhaps.  But you were voting age to help right the ship for decades, I assume.  

And now here we are.


----------



## Kat Stevens (8 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Perhaps.  But you were voting age to help right the ship for decades, I assume.
> 
> And now here we are.


I’ve lived in the west most of my life, my vote has never mattered.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I’ve lived in the west most of my life, my vote has never mattered.









You have a point.


----------



## Navy_Pete (8 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Let them cancel Disney subscriptions....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



For a site where people bitch a lot about Canadians not being financially literate, weird seeing some basic suggestions for cutting extras to pay for the basics being met with derision. If you see the quote in full context, she was saying 'every little bit helps' not this fixes things. Doing the same to all your expenses is part of balancing your cheque book.

Lots of things the government can be doing to (but not consistent with being small government) but smart phones, entertainment etc are all padding if you need to cut expenses to pay for food.


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## daftandbarmy (8 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> For a site where people bitch a lot about Canadians not being financially literate, weird seeing some basic suggestions for cutting extras to pay for the basics being met with derision. If you see the quote in full context, she was saying 'every little bit helps' not this fixes things. Doing the same to all your expenses is part of balancing your cheque book.
> 
> Lots of things the government can be doing to (but not consistent with being small government) but smart phones, entertainment etc are all padding if you need to cut expenses to pay for food.



It doesn't appear that many Canadians agree with you... or Freeland herself  

Chrystia Freeland backs away from ‘out of touch’ comment about Disney+​Freeland admitted her own privilege as she acknowledged Canadian families’ struggles with the cost of living.​
Deputy PM Chrystia Freeland admitted her own privilege Monday as she acknowledged Canadian families’ struggles with the skyrocketing cost of living, after facing criticism over her family’s cost-cutting decision to cancel its Disney+ subscription.

“I am a very privileged person, for sure. Like other elected federal leaders, I am paid a really significant salary. I really recognize that it is not people like me, people who have my really good fortune, who are struggling the most in Canada,” said Freeland in Milton, Ont.

The deputy prime minister said the struggles of Canadians shaped the fall economic statement released last Thursday and prompted the federal government to prioritize helping vulnerable people with measures such as the permanent elimination of interest on the federal portion of student loans, the enriching and redesign of the Canada Workers Benefit, and some housing measures.

“They are people across the country who earn a low income, who really do find that today’s high prices mean they have to make difficult choices about what food to buy, about whether to buy groceries or pull together the money to pay the rent,” she said.

“It is that recognition that the people in Canada who are struggling for whom inflation really is a direct, personal challenge.”

Following the government’s economic update last week, Freeland appeared on Global News’ “The West Block” hosted by Mercedes Stephenson. Asked if Ottawa is open to reviewing programs for wasteful spending, Freeland said the government announced in April it was looking for $9 billion in savings in the federal budget. She added the fall economic statement revealed that more savings were found than the April budget had anticipated.

To drive her point home, Freeland cited an example of her family’s own living choices: cancelling the children’s Disney+ subscription to save $13.99 per month.

“I said to the kids, ‘You’re older now. You don’t watch Disney anymore. Let’s cut that Disney+ subscription. So, we cut it. It’s only $13.99 a month that we’re saving, but every little bit helps,” she said.

“I believe that I need to take exactly the same approach with the federal government’s finances because that’s the money of Canadians.”

Social media users jumped on her comment, calling it “insulting,” “tone-deaf” and “out of touch.” Her critics in the opposition parties echoed those sentiments.

“The finance minister, just like the prime minister, is out of touch with the realities of the hardships they have caused and continue to cause for Canadians. Many Canadians are cutting back on basic necessities and don’t need a tone-deaf lesson from the finance minister on how to stretch a dollar,” Conservative MP Jasraj Singh Hallan, the party’s finance critic, told the Star.

“Canadians are struggling because of the Trudeau government’s greed and their out of control inflationary borrowing and spending.”

NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh said Freeland’s admission shows how disconnected the Liberal government is from ordinary Canadians.

“It is clearer than ever, that Minister Freeland and her government don’t understand what families are going through. Asking families to cut costs, instead of asking billionaires to pay what they owe, shows how out of touch the Liberals are with Canadians,” Singh said.

The NDP leader said the government “chose not to” make things easier on families by waiving the GST on home heating and putting in place a windfall tax on the oil industry and big grocery chains — both of which are making record profits.

A windfall tax refers to higher tax rates on above-average profits that are a result of unexpected events, such as the war in Ukraine which has led to record revenues for oil and gas companies.

The fall economic statement introduced a number of measures to help businesses and employees cope with the rising cost of living as the economy slows down. Freeland’s comments come as the Liberal government’s Bill C-11, or the Online Streaming Act, is making its way through the Senate. 

The proposed legislation seeks to amend Canada’s outdated Broadcasting Act to bring streaming giants, such as Disney+, under the same regulations that already apply to traditional broadcasters in this country. While the bill has generated its fair share of criticisms, one of the government’s stated goals in passing the legislation is to support the creation and promotion of Canadian content on platforms like Disney’s.











						Chrystia Freeland backs away from ‘out of touch’ comment about Disney+
					

Freeland admitted her own privilege as she acknowledged Canadian families’ struggles with the cost of living.




					www.thestar.com
				



​


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Nov 2022)

We just went through a period of unusual limitations on private liberty and severe (and continuing) economic pain in order to save the lives of old people - that was how many people phrased their support for the mitigation - and now there's muttering about the customary costs of old people that we've had to deal with all along?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Perhaps.  But you were voting age to help right the ship for decades, I assume.
> 
> And now here we are.


That is a ridiculous premise. Blaming a generation for your woes. There was a surplus of cash in our coffers, that appeared to be keeping up with things.

In 2015, your generation was voting age. Your generation elected a liberal government, that in seven years has totally wiped out our cash reserves and ruined us financially. We have no money, it's all a big ballooning credit bubble. You believed a charlatan, who wiped us out and left us nothing but financial and individual pain for the next generations. You had the opportunity, and were in a position to stop that. But you didn't. That all your generations fault. 

See how that works?


----------



## Kilted (8 Nov 2022)

KevinB said:


> Axe your Senate to a Provincially Elected one, and give it a bit more teeth, and you don't need to worry so much about the imbalance in the HoC with Ontario and Quebec, and the urban population.
> 
> That and burn down the PMO...


The Senate has considerable power as is. People will complain that it's unelected, but it's unelected for a reason. Hopefully the next government will get ride of this senator nominating committee and just start appointing them on partisan grounds. The system worked before, there was no reason to make the current arrangements.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2022)

Gunplumber said:


> So why cant we just get every voter to spoil their ballot and no one can get voted in until there is a set of UNBREAKABLE rules that they have to abide by or the next party that got the most votes take over. We can make it so that they have to keep 50% of their promises that they made during the election or, yup, you guessed it, they are booted and the next party steps in to take over. No costly elections continuously and maybe they might start to take things seriously. Yeah I know I'm dreaming and the only thing that happens is that we will go bankrupt, and it will happen. Now i need to get a coffee and wake up and talk sensibly.....



I like the idea broadly. I'd be afraid though, that would just lead to promising bigger and bigger things. Which would result in a party spending billions, just to gain the edge in a game of one upmanship.
Or what about a government that says something like "We'll supply clean drinking water on Reserves." and keeps promising the same thing election after election after election. Yet fails to do anything substantial.

Maybe a rule along the lines of, once you promise something and fail to deliver during your mandate, you can never use that talking point again as bait during any election.


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> We just went through a period of unusual limitations on private liberty and severe (and continuing) economic pain in order to save the lives of old people - that was how many people phrased their support for the mitigation - and *now there's muttering about the customary costs of old people that we've had to deal with all along*?


Speaking for myself only, I've only presented the question in terms of "if you're OK with not paying taxes for services you don't use, are you OK with others not paying for services they don't use."  I stand to be corrected, but I haven't seen anyone say it _*should*_ be done.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (8 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Lots of things the government can be doing to (but not consistent with being small government) but smart phones, entertainment etc are all padding if you need to cut expenses to pay for food.


To be fair, without the phone, your not getting a job, everyone assumes you have a phone and all sorts of systems require the employee to have a phone and no, many businesses will not pay for one. Only my youngest has data on her phone, so we can monitor her blood sugars, people are surprised that we don't have data. But it saves us a lot of money each month. I gave up many subscriptions and membership fees, haven't bought a steak in a year, fill up when gas is down, turned down the heat, skimp on a lot of things and don't have any debts at all. Yet with two incomes we are just surviving here in Vancouver. Walmarts sale prices are what Save on Foods normal price on items was 8 months ago.


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## lenaitch (8 Nov 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> To be fair, without the phone, your not getting a job, everyone assumes you have a phone and all sorts of systems require the employee to have a phone and no, many businesses will not pay for one. Only my youngest has data on her phone, so we can monitor her blood sugars, people are surprised that we don't have data. But it saves us a lot of money each month. I gave up many subscriptions and membership fees, haven't bought a steak in a year, fill up when gas is down, turned down the heat, skimp on a lot of things and don't have any debts at all. Yet with two incomes we are just surviving here in Vancouver. Walmarts sale prices are what Save on Foods normal price on items was 8 months ago.


Fair points all, but do people need the $1000 latest iPhone and data package that allows them to game and surf the Interweb at will?  Or multiple streaming services?  When I see people wandering the dollar store with a phone I can't afford in one had and a Starbucks in the other, I wonder about priorities.


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## Colin Parkinson (8 Nov 2022)

True enough, my assistant always went to the fancy coffee shop (that made Starbucks look like a deal) and wondered why she had no money. People laughed at me for drinking instant coffee, but I told them "That's how I bought my house". But these days I see a lot of couples who do their very best and can't afford to live. My friend is RCMP and his wife is a nurse, they could not afford a two bedroom apartment in North Vancouver. So had to move further out to find something they could afford. At this point it almost does not matter what you do as inflation outstrips your ability to save costs.


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## Halifax Tar (8 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> That is a ridiculous premise. Blaming a generation for your woes. There was a surplus of cash in our coffers, that appeared to be keeping up with things.
> 
> In 2015, your generation was voting age. Your generation elected a liberal government, that in seven years has totally wiped out our cash reserves and ruined us financially. We have no money, it's all a big ballooning credit bubble. You believed a charlatan, who wiped us out and left us nothing but financial and individual pain for the next generations. You had the opportunity, and were in a position to stop that. But you didn't. That all your generations fault.
> 
> See how that works?



I'm talking about our social programs.

Which generations since the 60s have paid lip service to while trying to avoid paying cash money to support.  Now that they need them it's a panic and a crisis.

The boomers had no foresight.  How they couldn't have foreseen thier massive demographic impact on our services is beyond me.  But fail to plan, plan to fail.

Reminds me of the aging folks who I used run into in college.  Pissed their life away until they were 45+ and then, late in life, wondered why they had nothing and had to start from the bottom all the while having a false aire of superior wisdom.  I used to love debating with these aged hippies in my social work program.  Hilarious folks with no sense of personal responsibility.  But my goodness they had one hell of a sense of entitlement.

I'm not really a generational blamer, I just think that's the truth.  The shit policies from 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, social and financial, are coming back to haunt us.


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## OldSolduer (8 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Perhaps.  But you were voting age to help right the ship for decades, I assume.
> 
> And now here we are.


Perhaps and yes I voted in every election. -Do you trust your peers to do the same?  I get it - anyone older than 60 is to blame. 




Perhaps those under 60 need to ask themselves the same question.


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## OldSolduer (8 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I’ve lived in the west most of my life, my vote has never mattered.


I have a very longwinded letter written that deals with this very matter. I will post on here later tonight.


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## Halifax Tar (8 Nov 2022)

OldSolduer said:


> Perhaps and yes I voted in every election. -Do you trust your peers to do the same?  I get it - anyone older than 60 is to blame.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know I have nothing but love for you homie. 

But the world we're in a product that the preceding generations have provided. 

And I don't think my generation will be some glowing example of how act. 

As I've said before, we need better options for politicians.  I know I'm asking for too much.


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## Remius (8 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I'm talking about our social programs.
> 
> Which generations since the 60s have paid lip service to while trying to avoid paying cash money to support.  Now that they need them it's a panic and a crisis.
> 
> ...


This is the thing.

And you hit the nail on the head.  I mentioned a few things in another thread the Boomer generation did that messed up future generations and in particular the millennials (and a specific cohort that was really messed up because of it).

And it’s not Boomers per se but they policies that were enacted after inheriting a solid foundation from previous generations.

1) moving to increased educational accreditation.  And raising that as well.  We moved away from an OJT model workforce to one that requires more education than is really required.  This makes us less productive and we lose potential early on.

2) Focusing on short term gains and consequences.  Essentially they stopped long term planning.  And unfortunately they’ve passed on that habit to subsequent generations.

3) reduced investment in businesses and increased investment in real estate specifically homes

None of this should be taken as a statement that boomers didn't or don't work hard.  But it's an inconvenient truth that is being borne out


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2022)

From 2015 when this government got elected.
from Abacus. It could well be from these figures, that Millennials are responsible for our government and politics today. Trudeau has created tons of social programs costing billions. The problem was he  did them in other countries, not here. Millenials outnumber Boomers or will very soon. They've  already decided on their parties. You've had since 2015 to address the social problems you say we screwed up, with the leaders you picked. And two more elections since, with little change in how the government does business. You never called on the government to revamp the previous social programs you have a heartache with. As much blame can be placed on Millennials now as Boomers for the government. You're placing blame when you should be sharing it. As mariomike likes to say, "we get the government we deserve." We have passed that responsibility to Millennials.  Hope you learn fast. As I said earlier, the poll is dated. Perhaps someone can find something more current Abacus Data |   Canadian Politics: A Generational Divide?


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## Remius (8 Nov 2022)

Generational divide in politics is one thing.  Unfortunately that isn't the the main factors that affect the trends we are seeing.  Otherwise they would have been doing great during the Harper years but they weren't.  

Millennials are unable to accumulate wealth to the same degree that past generations have been able to.  I posted a few reasons why.  Boomers are also impeding home ownership due to certain trends as well. 

All if this is well documented.  And it isn't just Canada.


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## Kat Stevens (8 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> This is the thing.
> 
> And you hit the nail on the head.  I mentioned a few things in another thread the Boomer generation did that messed up future generations and in particular the millennials (and a specific cohort that was really messed up because of it).
> 
> ...


I wish I could be here to see the day when your kids and grandkids turn on you and put the blame on you for everything you’ve ever said, done, or thought that left them a different world to unfuck. It’s a horrible day, but it’s coming for you, just like us.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Generational divide in politics is one thing.  Unfortunately that isn't the the main factors that affect the trends we are seeing.  Otherwise they would have been doing great during the Harper years but they weren't.
> 
> Millennials are unable to accumulate wealth to the same degree that past generations have been able to.  I posted a few reasons why.  Boomers are also impeding home ownership due to certain trends as well.
> 
> All if this is well documented.  And it isn't just Canada.


Too bad we never had the crystal ball you technologically advanced millennials have. Hindsight is always 20/20.
It'll be interesting to see how the Millenials, now in charge, get to fixing 'our' mistakes. You've had 7 years so far. Personally, I've only seen Miillennials make things worse with your choice of government. Give us a timeline and let us know when you decide to make your red and orange liberals tow the line listen to you. Oh wait, you can't, that crystal ball only works on the past, it can't see the future. Much the way our programs were designed by the conditions of the day.


----------



## IKnowNothing (8 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Fair points all, but do people need the $1000 latest iPhone and data package that allows them to game and surf the Interweb at will?  Or multiple streaming services?  When I see people wandering the dollar store with a phone I can't afford in one had and a Starbucks in the other, I wonder about priorities.


It's tricky. There are people struggling to keep their heads above water. And there's people struggling to keep their heads above water with some combination of
-a late model pickup truck that's never seen dirt/shit/sawdust  or used its hitch (or equivalent vanity vehicle) as a daily driver
-most/all of Netflix/Prime/Crave/Disney+ and a cable package
-a pack a day
-a case a week
-several restaurant/takeout/delivery meals per week

It's across all classes.  There's a lot of mindless baseline spending that is in people's power to change and better their situation.

The latter doesn't want to hear it and gets defensive. The former (rightfully) gets touchy/offended when associated with the latter.


----------



## Remius (8 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Too bad we never had the crystal ball you technologically advanced millennials have. Hindsight is always 20/20.
> It'll be interesting to see how the Millenials, now in charge, get to fixing 'our' mistakes. You've had 7 years so far. Personally, I've only seen Miillennials make things worse with your choice of government. Give us a timeline and let us know when you decide to make your red and orange liberals tow the line listen to you. Oh wait, you can't, that crystal ball only works on the past, it can't see the future. Much the way our programs were designed by the conditions of the day.


I’m not a millennial.  I also didn’t vote liberal last election.  That’s immaterial.  

Stop taking this personally as this isn’t a personal attack. 

It’s well documented and I’ve provided examples.  

I’m happy to discuss or provide sources.


----------



## Remius (8 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> I wish I could be here to see the day when your kids and grandkids turn on you and put the blame on you for everything you’ve ever said, done, or thought that left them a different world to unfuck. It’s a horrible day, but it’s coming for you, just like us.


I wish you could actually discuss without taking this personally.  No one is turning on you so relax.  

I’m pointing to certain factors.  Feel free to dispute but maybe take a time out as you seem upset.


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> 2) Focusing on short term gains and consequences.  Essentially they stopped long term planning.  And unfortunately they’ve passed on that habit to subsequent generations.
> 
> 3) reduced investment in businesses and increased investment in real estate specifically homes


No point trying to out-guess government long term or invest in business.  Not if people are going to vote for parties who can and do turn long-term business investments into confetti by changing rules abruptly or suddenly deciding how profits ought be committed.

Real estate has the advantage of being hard to inflate away.  Also, leisure time isn't really taxable.  Clear your debts, save, and retire as early as you can.  Let the people who want to "green" the world (they're not entirely oldsters) pay the cost, especially since they're determined to strangle the energy economy we have before we have another one ready.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> It's tricky. There are people struggling to keep their heads above water. And there's people struggling to keep their heads above water with some combination of
> -a late model pickup truck that's never seen dirt/shit/sawdust  or used its hitch (or equivalent vanity vehicle) as a daily driver
> -most/all of Netflix/Prime/Crave/Disney+ and a cable package
> -a pack a day
> ...


I enjoy my one year old pickup. It pulls a 20 ft Cargo trailer, that I live in when running around on my UTV.  I spent a couple of grand in gas this year travelling. I own my house outright. I also own my wife's car. I have a collection of 'tools' worth about $80 grand. I'm not going further. I'm not trying to rub noses. My point is, if you want it, work for it. The only people I owe money to, is the government, once a year. Nothing was ever given to me except hard lessons and disappointment. I pulled myself out. Nobody else did it for me. I was never afforded any social programs, except one year when when I used EI for a few weeks. I was never afforded opportunity by the government except to be allowed to join our military. I have grade10. I had to go to work. I went to College, 20 years ago, which I paid for, to become a general machinist, as a hobby. I worked for 50 years. I'm entitled to anything I want to pay for without paying for stangers to have what I have. But they want to use my money to reach parity. So please excuse me if your having a hard time, but trying to blame me for your self described social problems and missing opportunities is bullshit. Full stop. I doubt you'll  reach where I am, by doing it the way I did. However, I'd have to think if you fail, it your own fault. That's a big part of the problem today. Nobody will take responsibility for their actions and when they screw the pooch, they want us to pay for it. 
You've  had seven years of your government. Plenty of time to of had your grievances heard. You failed to do that.

Only you are responsible for your position in life.

This is your fault, not the Boomers.


----------



## Remius (8 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> No point trying to out-guess government long term or invest in business.  Not if people are going to vote for parties who can and do turn long-term business investments into confetti by changing rules abruptly or suddenly deciding how profits ought be committed.
> 
> Real estate has the advantage of being hard to inflate away.  Also, leisure time isn't really taxable.  Clear your debts, save, and retire as early as you can.  Let the people who want to "green" the world (they're not entirely oldsters) pay the cost, especially since they're determined to strangle the energy economy we have before we have another one ready.


None of that changes the facts as to why we are where we are as I listed them.


----------



## Remius (8 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> You've  had seven years of your government. Plenty of time to of had your grievances heard. You failed to do that.
> 
> Only you are responsible for your position in life.
> 
> This is your fault, not the Boomers.


Just a note on this.  Boomers are still the largest voting block by generation.  millennials won’t surpass them until 2029 according to census data.   And Gen X will never surpass either as a larger generation.


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## Colin Parkinson (8 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Just a note on this.  Boomers are still the largest voting block by generation.  millennials won’t surpass them until 2029 according to census data.   And Gen X will never surpass either as a larger generation.


Each voting block is a mixed bag and it's likley the millennials dominate the urban seats.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Just a note on this.  Boomers are still the largest voting block by generation.  millennials won’t surpass them until 2029 according to census data.   And Gen X will never surpass either as a larger generation.


Doesn't matter. It was them that had a hand in electing the government they wanted. They failed to have their greivances addressed because they never tried. Whatever pickle they believe themselves in. It is their own fault.

And I do take it personal. I'm a Boomer. It is part of an identifiable group I belong to. A group that has been openly attacked as the cause of all the Millenials broken dreams in this thread. Hey, you attack my team, you attack me. So don't try tell me not to take it personally. You just keep doing you,  and I'll (we'll) will continue doing what we've been doing.

Fin


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## Halifax Tar (8 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I enjoy my one year old pickup. It pulls a 20 ft Cargo trailer, that I live in when running around on my UTV.  I spent a couple of grand in gas this year travelling. I own my house outright. I also own my wife's car. I have a collection of 'tools' worth about $80 grand. I'm not going further. I'm not trying to rub noses. My point is, if you want it, work for it. The only people I owe money to, is the government, once a year. Nothing was ever given to me except hard lessons and disappointment. I pulled myself out. Nobody else did it for me. I was never afforded any social programs, except one year when when I used EI for a few weeks. I was never afforded opportunity by the government except to be allowed to join our military. I have grade10. I had to go to work. I went to College, 20 years ago, which I paid for, to become a general machinist, as a hobby. I worked for 50 years. I'm entitled to anything I want to pay for without paying for stangers to have what I have. But they want to use my money to reach parity. So please excuse me if your having a hard time, but trying to blame me for your self described social problems and missing opportunities is bullshit. Full stop. I doubt you'll  reach where I am, by doing it the way I did. However, I'd have to think if you fail, it your own fault. That's a big part of the problem today. Nobody will take responsibility for their actions and when they screw the pooch, they want us to pay for it.
> You've  had seven years of your government. Plenty of time to of had your grievances heard. You failed to do that.
> 
> Only you are responsible for your position in life.
> ...



I generally agree with your sentiment that life is what you make it.  

But I can also recognize that anyone starting out with a grade 10 these days will probably never achieve what you did.  That includes if they go to college later in life.

Also we can't look at the situation today without looking to past and what brought us here.  I just wish we would look back on the mistakes, recognize them and take action right the ship.

Alas people want quick fixes.  Not long term long gain fixes.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> And I do take it personal. I'm a Boomer. It is part of an identifiable group I belong to. A group that has been openly attacked as the cause of all the Millenials broken dreams in this thread. Hey, you attack my team, you attack me. So don't try tell me not to take it personally. You just keep doing you,  and I'll (we'll) will continue doing what we've been doing.



That's because the boomer generation is responsible for alot of what ails us now.  Like it or not that generation's selfishness is not only leaving a mess behind them they've created successive selfish generations in their wake.


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> None of that changes the facts as to why we are where we are as I listed them.


True.  And none of that will change as the Boomers age out and the generations after them persist in following the same paths, which makes all the lamentations about the state of affairs kind of pointless.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> That's because the boomer generation is responsible for alot of what ails us now.  Like it or not that generation's selfishness is not only leaving a mess behind them they've created successive selfish generations in their wake.


Well, real simply then. If the Millennials don't take responsibility for their own lazy attitude in not getting things changed. Boomers aren't responsible either. Your criteria, not mine


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I generally agree with your sentiment that life is what you make it.
> 
> But I can also recognize that anyone starting out with a grade 10 these days will probably never achieve what you did.  That includes if they go to college later in life.
> 
> ...


Grade 10, late 60's early 70's probably equates to Gr 12 or 13 today. That point is moot. I also went to  Technical School and learned a basic knowledge of many trades at the time. Enough to be hired in any of them. Instead of complaing about the shitty stick we left. Get to work on the governments to quit shoving University in everyone's face. If all those whiners had a trade, they wouldn't  need social programs. Open trade schools for high schools and get to work. It is a rare bird, that ends up living their dream job. Most have to take what they can get. Nothing wrong in having a grounding in the trade. You'll make more money than many, most, university graduates. But physical work is hard, so it won't  likely happen.
 We can look back and make improvements. That's what drives civilization, but you don't  see Boomers blaming the Greatest Generation for the war.

You want dialogue? Quit looking for someone to blame and spend your frustration on solutions. So far, for all their complaining about Boomers fucking up their lives, I haven't  heard the Millenials offer a single solution to fix it yet. Just complain, and they haven't offered a real problem. 'Social programs' cover an awful lot of territory and they've  not identified one single program that irks them. Just pages of blame.

You Boomers ruined everything.
What did we ruin? What have you done about it and what solution do you expect? How do we get there?

If you can't articulate that, shut this topic down. Millennials might feel some sort of catharsis blaming Boomers for it all, but it really is shit because you are accomplishing nothing, just playing the blame game. Like children complaining it's not fair, but can't say why.


----------



## IKnowNothing (8 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I enjoy my one year old pickup. It pulls a 20 ft Cargo trailer, that I live in when running around on my UTV.  I spent a couple of grand in gas this year travelling. I own my house outright. I also own my wife's car. I have a collection of 'tools' worth about $80 grand. I'm not going further. I'm not trying to rub noses. My point is, if you want it, work for it. The only people I owe money to, is the government, once a year. Nothing was ever given to me except hard lessons and disappointment. I pulled myself out. Nobody else did it for me. I was never afforded any social programs, except one year when when I used EI for a few weeks. I was never afforded opportunity by the government except to be allowed to join our military. I have grade10. I had to go to work. I went to College, 20 years ago, which I paid for, to become a general machinist, as a hobby. I worked for 50 years. I'm entitled to anything I want to pay for without paying for stangers to have what I have. But they want to use my money to reach parity. So please excuse me if your having a hard time, but trying to blame me for your self described social problems and missing opportunities is bullshit. Full stop. I doubt you'll  reach where I am, by doing it the way I did. However, I'd have to think if you fail, it your own fault. That's a big part of the problem today. Nobody will take responsibility for their actions and when they screw the pooch, they want us to pay for it.
> You've  had seven years of your government. Plenty of time to of had your grievances heard. You failed to do that.
> 
> Only you are responsible for your position in life.
> ...


Sir this is Tim Hortons.


----------



## Halifax Tar (8 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Well, real simply then. If the Millennials don't take responsibility for their own lazy attitude in not getting things changed. Boomers aren't responsible either. Your criteria, not mine



The millenials are playing the hand their dealt.  Wanna know who dealt that hand ?  I don't think you'll like the answer.

I'm a Gen X'er so I get the ability to laugh at both the Boomers and the Millenials. 



Fishbone Jones said:


> Grade 10, late 60's early 70's probably equates to Gr 12 or 13 today. That point is moot. I also went to  Technical School and learned a basic knowledge of many trades at the time. Enough to be hired in any of them. Instead of complaing about the shitty stick we left. Get to work on the governments to quit shoving University in everyone's face. If all those whiners had a trade, they wouldn't  need social programs. Open trade schools for high schools and get to work. It is a rare bird, that ends up living their dream job. Most have to take what they can get. Nothing wrong in having a grounding in the trade. You'll make more money than many, most, university graduates. But physical work is hard, so it won't  likely happen.
> We can look back and make improvements. That's what drives civilization, but you don't  see Boomers blaming the Greatest Generation for the war.
> 
> You want dialogue? Quit looking for someone to blame and spend your frustration on solutions. So far, for all their complaining about Boomers fucking up their lives, I haven't  heard the Millenials offer a single solution to fix it yet. Just complain, and they haven't offered a real problem. 'Social programs' cover an awful lot of territory and they've  not identified one single program that irks them. Just pages of blame.
> ...



Suck back and reload homie.  No one is saying we should tar and feather Fishbone Jones for what his generation did.

Para 1: I'm generally in agreement with you.  But it's the boomers who instilled the necessity higher education and down played the value of the trades.  I remember my guardians doing just that.  And thier disappointment when I left college to join the CAF.

The boomers created the social, economic, political and educational current playing field. 

Para 2: The boomers can and should be blamed for the setting we are in, but they shouldn't be blamed for actions on, negative or positive, by follow on generations, no matter how much they had a hand in raising said follow on generations.

All I can say is I can empathize with people starting out now, they are being dealt a shitty deal.  And I'm glad I am about 15 years ahead of them.  And I also fear for my daughter's future.

Last Para: See above.


----------



## mariomike (8 Nov 2022)

> The boomers created the social, economic, political and educational current playing field.



I didn't make the world. I barely exist in it.


----------



## FJAG (8 Nov 2022)

I'm coming somewhat in the middle of this conversation so no shade on anything said before but I just want to address a couple of things from this Boomer's point of view.


Halifax Tar said:


> Para 1: I'm generally in agreement with you.  But it's the boomers who instilled the necessity higher education and down played the value of the trades.  I remember my guardians doing just that.  And thier disappointment when I left college to join the CAF.


I'm a 1949 kid so right in the Boomer stream. I recall my high school years clearly. We started with Grades 9A to 9T and graduated a Grade 13A and 13B. That's a lot of dropouts along the way who went to work at things not requiring a university education. There was a ton of construction and a ton of manufacturing jobs available. The question was never can I get a job? but which of several jobs do I want? 

There's no doubt that things changed subsequently. Over the years, attitudes turned to the value of higher education and "soft" jobs. Where I disagree is that this was somehow "instilled" by the Boomers. 


Halifax Tar said:


> The boomers created the social, economic, political and educational current playing field.


Societies change over time for many complex reasons. There is revolutionary change and there is gradual change. The only revolution the Boomers claim responsibility for is the sexual revolution. Everything else was a gradual change brought about by reaction to changing circumstances sometimes by outside factors, at other times because some good-idea fairy like JT's father (Not a Boomer - technically one of the Greatest Generation) came up with it. In fact if you take a close look, much of the change which started to snowball by the 80s was done under the management of the Greatest Generation.


Halifax Tar said:


> Para 2: The boomers can and should be blamed for the setting we are in, but they shouldn't be blamed for actions on, negative or positive, by follow on generations, no matter how much they had a hand in raising said follow on generations.


I have trouble understanding what "setting we are in" is attributable to the "generation of the Boomers". Maybe it's the lawyer in me but for there to blame there needs to be factual causation (i.e. something that the "generation" did or allowed to happen which directly caused the complained of situation) as well as a measure of moral blameworthiness. It's not enough that we were merely around as adults when the paradigm shifted.


Halifax Tar said:


> All I can say is I can empathize with people starting out now, they are being dealt a shitty deal.  And I'm glad I am about 15 years ahead of them.  And I also fear for my daughter's future.


Me too. I've got two grandkids in university. I've got a daughter with a Master's in a field that makes her overqualified for the jobs in her field. (Go figure) Like many Boomers, we're helping out our descendants to ensure that they can get the best education that they can so as to maximize their opportunities.

There are dozens of reasons why young folks are in the situation that they are in starting with heightened expectations that life will be easy and they get to start at the top (just a reminder that this Boomer's job as a RegF officer paid a whopping salary of $600.00 per month-which wasn't much even in 1970 dollars-and it wasn't until I got out twelve years later that my wife and I on our joint salaries could afford to buy a 1,000 sq ft bungalow) all the way to high domestic salaries that drove the bulk of our manufacturing jobs offshore leaving behind very little beyond the service sector.

In summary, I, as a Boomer, feel neither causal nor moral responsibility for the current state of the country.


----------



## YZT580 (8 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> I generally agree with your sentiment that life is what you make it.
> 
> But I can also recognize that anyone starting out with a grade 10 these days will probably never achieve what you did.  That includes if they go to college later in life.
> 
> ...


actually I believe that the best earning potential is with folks that have secondary education or less but have served a major apprenticeship.  University is vastly overrated


----------



## mariomike (8 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> The only revolution the Boomers claim responsibility for is the sexual revolution.



Nice to be blamed for something fun.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (8 Nov 2022)

I'm a Millennial, very close to GenX but still in the Millennial cohort.

I believe the vast majority of Millennials, Boomers, GenX   Canadians, nowadays, are all mostly lazy and entitled.  I don't even think it's an age thing, I think it's a Canadian Society thing.

This is now a Country where everyone wants a piece but nobody thinks they have to put in any elbow grease to get it.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, you gotta work at it, probably harder than anyone in the recent past has.



Remius said:


> Generational divide in politics is one thing.  Unfortunately that isn't the the main factors that affect the trends we are seeing.  Otherwise they would have been doing great during the Harper years but they weren't.
> 
> Millennials are unable to accumulate wealth to the same degree that past generations have been able to.  I posted a few reasons why.  Boomers are also impeding home ownership due to certain trends as well.
> 
> All if this is well documented.  And it isn't just Canada.


That's because Millenials don't know how to accumulate wealth.  They don't understand cashflow, they live off credit and are in constant debt.

There are plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money.  I work as a Switchman/Conductor right now for a Class 1 Railroad, the average Conductor at my terminal makes over $100,000.00 a year with the top earners making arouns $140,000.00.  Locomotive Engineers (the direct promotion) make between $160,000.00 and $200,000.00 a year.

Want to know what the qualifications are to get in to the trade?  High School GED and you show up to work when they call you and do your work safely and without complaint.

We actually can't hire anyone right now because nobody wants to do the work.  Don't get me wrong, it's hard work, I just got called in and am going to work from midnight until probably 10am tomorrow morning in 0 degree temperatures and rain, but we are well compensated for it.

The only people we are actually able to hire seem to be immigrants.  The average Canadian youth seems to think this type of work is beneath them.


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Nov 2022)

I’ll post my thoughts tomorrow- The Jets are giving the Dallas Stars a lesson in how to play hockey.


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## mariomike (8 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> There are plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money.  I work as a Switchman/Conductor right now for a Class 1 Railroad, the average Conductor at my terminal makes over $100,000.00 a year with the top earners making arouns $140,000.00.  Locomotive Engineers (the direct promotion) make between $160,000.00 and $200,000.00 a year.



It's a great job. Very happy for you. Dad was a VIA Rail locomotive engineer. So was his father, with CNR. They loved it.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Nov 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> The millenials are playing the hand their dealt.  Wanna know who dealt that hand ?  I don't think you'll like the answer.
> 
> I'm a Gen X'er so I get the ability to laugh at both the Boomers and the Millenials.
> 
> ...


.


----------



## Remius (9 Nov 2022)

Clearly some are upset.   I posted three well documented changes that had an impact.  You don’t have to like it or believe it and I frankly don’t really care but they are what they are.


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## FJAG (9 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Clearly some are upset.   I posted three well documented changes that had an impact.  You don’t have to like it or believe it and I frankly don’t really care but they are what they are.


I looked through upthread and couldn't find those. Not saying they aren't there; just that I didn't find them.

Link me back to them, please.


----------



## Remius (9 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm a Millennial, very close to GenX but still in the Millennial cohort.



There are actually several cohorts within the millennial grouping.  And to be honest I would probably classify them as almost three separate distinct groups but I digress.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> I believe the vast majority of Millennials, Boomers, GenX   Canadians, nowadays, are all mostly lazy and entitled.  I don't even think it's an age thing, I think it's a Canadian Society thing.


Quite so.  I’m not debating laziness or entitlement though.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> This is now a Country where everyone wants a piece but nobody thinks they have to put in any elbow grease to get it.
> 
> There is no such thing as a free lunch, you gotta work at it, probably harder than anyone in the recent past has.



Exactly.  It’s actually harder now than it was.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> That's because Millenials don't know how to accumulate wealth.  They don't understand cashflow, they live off credit and are in constant debt.


Again, this points to one of the issues I pointed out.  Student debt is a big thing in this country.  Why?  Because as I peresented, the boomer gen shifted to increased accredited education for everything.  Meaning more debt earlier in life and less productive working years earning wealth sooner.   


Humphrey Bogart said:


> There are plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money.  I work as a Switchman/Conductor right now for a Class 1 Railroad, the average Conductor at my terminal makes over $100,000.00 a year with the top earners making arouns $140,000.00.  Locomotive Engineers (the direct promotion) make between $160,000.00 and $200,000.00 a year.


Sure.  But we went through and are still going through the mentality that university is the only gateway to success and we don’t promote those jobs enough.  A product of an education system create by the previous generation. 


Humphrey Bogart said:


> Want to know what the qualifications are to get in to the trade?  High School GED and you show up to work when they call you and do your work safely and without complaint.


Glad to hear that your sector offers what used to be the norm.  OJT style system vs what we have developed over the decades in terms of over education and accreditation. 


Humphrey Bogart said:


> We actually can't hire anyone right now because nobody wants to do the work.  Don't get me wrong, it's hard work, I just got called in and am going to work from midnight until probably 10am tomorrow morning in 0 degree temperatures and rain, but we are well compensated for it.


The problem is that salary no longer motivâtes like it once did.


Humphrey Bogart said:


> The only people we are actually able to hire seem to be immigrants.  The average Canadian youth seems to think this type of work is beneath them.


Again, it’s isn’t so much that (albeit I am sure it is for some). But goes to what motivates them.

I don’t understand millennials and I suspect I will keep struggling to understand them but what motivates them to get to  where they will get  is not the way you or I did it.


----------



## Remius (9 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> I looked through upthread and couldn't find those. Not saying they aren't there; just that I didn't find them.
> 
> Link me back to them, please.


Post in thread 'The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic'
The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic


----------



## daftandbarmy (9 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> There are actually several cohorts within the millennial grouping.  And to be honest I would probably classify them as almost three separate distinct groups but I digress.
> 
> Quite so.  I’m not debating laziness or entitlement though.
> 
> ...



If it helps, it appears that generational labels are about as meaningful as astrological signs:


‘Gen Z’ Only Exists in Your Head​The dividing lines between generations are a figment of our collective imagination.

Generational labels capture some of the basic fact that people who are born in different eras lead meaningfully different lives. But these labels are clumsy and imprecise—and getting more so all the time. They flatten out the experiences of tens of millions of very different people, remove nuance from conversations, and imply commonality where there may be none. The social scientists are right: Generational labels are stupid.

First of all, they are essentially made-up. _Baby Boomers_ are the only currently living cohort defined by an actual demographic event—in this case, the postwar baby boom. As Cohen pointed out in his open letter, the rest have arbitrary parameters and lengths: The Silent Generation was born over a span of 18 years before the end of World War II; Millennials entered the world over a span of 16 years from 1981 to 1996. No official body certified these categories and verified the rationale behind them—they just eventually became accepted after getting repeated over and over.

In a sense, generational labels have gotten even less real in the past few decades. The average age at which Americans become parents has been rising, meaning that generations have technically been lengthening—and yet, Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z span shorter lengths of time than Baby Boomers and the Silent Generation. Although this could reflect the sense that social and technological changes are happening more quickly than in the past, another possible explanation, Cohen thinks, is that as marketers and pundits have observed the profits and attention that come with labeling a generation, they scramble to be the first to do so.









						‘Gen Z’ Only Exists in Your Head
					

The dividing lines between generations are a figment of our collective imagination.




					www.theatlantic.com


----------



## FJAG (9 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Post in thread 'The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic'
> The Decline of the Liberal Party- Swerved Into a Confederation Topic


Thanks for that.



Remius said:


> ... And it’s not Boomers per se but they policies that were enacted after inheriting a solid foundation from previous generations.
> 
> 1) moving to increased educational accreditation.  And raising that as well.  We moved away from an OJT model workforce to one that requires more education than is really required.  This makes us less productive and we lose potential early on.


I don't disagree that this happened. And I'm a strong advocate that we waste entirely too many resources "educating" people in useless "careers" that provide no net benefits for society as a whole. I don't blame the generation for this. I blame the higher education system for this as well as the "don't fail anyone" syndrome within the public education system. That is compounded by a young society that prefers to languish in school under the care of their parents rather than finding work they are capable of doing with the education that they already have.


Remius said:


> 2) Focusing on short term gains and consequences.  Essentially they stopped long term planning.  And unfortunately they’ve passed on that habit to subsequent generations.


Once again I agree with the result but not the source. My generation focused on long term goals and consequences which is evidenced by the fact that the Boomer Generation is one of the wealthiest and in large measure continues to support their adult offspring. I might go so far as to agree that perhaps we were too permissive with our offspring and supported them longer than we had to as youth rather than kicking them out to the curb and as a result the next few generations found life too easy and formed that as a habit.


Remius said:


> 3) reduced investment in businesses and increased investment in real estate specifically homes


And yet again we see things differently. Again I point at the wealth of the Boomers. See here e.g.


> Census Bureau: Baby boomers have almost 9 times wealth of millennials
> 
> 
> The U.S. Census Bureau (USCB) reports based on the latest survey of American incomes, baby boomers have almost nine times the wealth of millennials.
> ...


You can see that excluding home equity the wealth of Boomers doubles that of Millennials and with equity it is 9 times. You have to remember too that home equity is not only a form of investment but also a form of an economic multiplier in the funds invested in urban infrastructure creation (through lot development costs),  building trades salaries and material for construction and municipal tax revenue. The fact that home equity has risen is immaterial to the fact that the money Boomers initially spent in acquiring the original cost base of their home equity at then fair market rates was an economic stimulator.

I can say categorically that I, like many of my peers, lived very frugal day-to-day lives in our early years while working at modest paying jobs and putting much of the paycheck aside collecting enough savings to invest in a down payment and at the same time rolling moneys into RRSPs (which coincidentally funded businesses and industry). I still live frugally in many ways. I don't use a cell phone. I have one for emergencies on a 7/11 plan that costs me roughly $25.00 a year. Most young folks run a $90.00 monthly bill or more for theirs. I use a dirt cheap internet home phone that piggybacks on my internet system.

The real issue is that many young people today do not wish to go through a period of living frugal lives but want the gratification of a McMansion and costly entertainment right now and have assumed vast quantities of debt to do so. Up until very recently, long periods of low interest loans fed that desire and also resulted in escalating home prices as supply fell short of demand. That's not a Boomer thing. When I bought my first home in 1981, interest rates were nearing 18-19% and I was damn happy to buy that small bungalow with an assumable 9.25% mortgage which lasted long enough until rates fell back to a manageable 10%. They basically had run in the 7-8% range before 1980 and dropped into the 5-7% range during the late 1980s and 1990s. A lot of the Millennial problem comes from the 2-3% rates after 2000 and other easy credit access which fuels lazy savings habits and facilitates over reaching.

So. Still don't feel any causal or moral blame for the current millennials' situation although I do feel sorry for the next generation coming up.

🍻


----------



## dimsum (9 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> There are plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money.  I work as a Switchman/Conductor right now for a Class 1 Railroad, the average Conductor at my terminal makes over $100,000.00 a year with the top earners making arouns $140,000.00.  Locomotive Engineers (the direct promotion) make between $160,000.00 and $200,000.00 a year.
> 
> Want to know what the qualifications are to get in to the trade?  High School GED and you show up to work when they call you and do your work safely and without complaint.
> 
> ...


I think there is a commonality between what you said and why the CAF isn't getting the recruiting numbers.

Many (I won't say most) folks don't want to leave where their families, etc live.  Those of us in the CAF obviously have moved so we know it's not a big deal, but for many people it is.  I shrug off moving every 3-4 years and my family/civ friends are still surprised how I do it - having to rebuild friends networks, etc.  

This extends to many folks not wanting to travel much for work either.  Especially now, with remote work being "the thing", it will be even harder to convince some people to do a job like yours, despite the pay.


----------



## Remius (9 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> 
> I don't disagree that this happened. And I'm a strong advocate that we waste entirely too many resources "educating" people in useless "careers" that provide no net benefits for society as a whole. I don't blame the generation for this. I blame the higher education system for this as well as the "don't fail anyone" syndrome within the public education system. That is compounded by a young society that prefers to languish in school under the care of their parents rather than finding work they are capable of doing with the education that they already have.
> ...


Unfortunately it’s not about how boomers planned individually for their own well-being long term.  In that regard they are probably even better at it than any generation but they were given the tools and opportunity that others have not,  no, what is meant by the second bullet is failure to plan long term from a societal perspective and what the political class decided to do.  


FJAG said:


> And yet again we see things differently. Again I point at the wealth of the Boomers. See here e.g.
> 
> You can see that excluding home equity the wealth of Boomers doubles that of Millennials and with equity it is 9 times. You have to remember too that home equity is not only a form of investment but also a form of an economic multiplier in the funds invested in urban infrastructure creation (through lot development costs),  building trades salaries and material for construction and municipal tax revenue. The fact that home equity has risen is immaterial to the fact that the money Boomers initially spent in acquiring the original cost base of their home equity at then fair market rates was an economic stimulator.
> 
> ...


All of this proves my point.  

See here:  








						Aging in place: How Baby Boomers are breaking Canada's real estate market
					

In one of the tighest real estate markets ever recorded in Canada, Boomers are not letting go of their homes




					nationalpost.com
				












						Millennials vs. baby boomers: Why the cost of living has skyrocketed for young Canadians  | Globalnews.ca
					

The reality for a typical young person is they have to go to school longer, land jobs that pay thousands of dollars less and face skyrocketing housing costs, one expert said.




					globalnews.ca
				




The fact is that it was easier to get into home ownership despite high interest rates of that time also shows that the boomers had several advantages in order to do so. 

Also:  NIMBY attitudes of Boomers has led to issues in real estate.  









						When Millennials Battle Boomers Over Housing
					

In Generation Priced Out, Randy Shaw examines how Boomers have blocked affordable housing in urban neighborhoods, leaving Millennial homebuyers in the lurch.




					www.bloomberg.com
				







FJAG said:


> So. Still don't feel any causal or moral blame for the current millennials' situation although I do feel sorry for the next generation coming up.
> 
> 🍻



And no one is expecting you or others to feel any moral blame.  Causal blame and recognizing that maybe the way boomers ran things though is another issue.  And yes of course it is hindsight.  But there was little foresight.  I am just stating facts that have led to where millennials are sitting.   You did what you did and why not?  Those were the rules or opportunities of the time. 

* But let’s not pretend that millennials were given the same opportunities that Boomers had.*

More on some of what I mused about.  Like I said it’s well documented.  People don’t have to like it but it is what it is.  And history is already judging and I suspect when the millennials finally take the lead they won’t be too kind in their assessment of the world that Boomers left them.  











						A billionaire boomer blames his generation for ruining the economy for millennials
					

Boomers left future generations with debt and a broken economy, billionaire Howard Marks said. It says a lot about millennials' affordability crisis.




					www.businessinsider.com
				












						The Theft of a Decade: How The Baby Boomers Stole The Millennials' Economic Future | Manhattan Institute
					






					www.manhattan-institute.org
				




This article talks about how millennials never recovered from the Great Recession.  We can argue what caused that…it also debunks a bit how millennials spend more than they earn.



			https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/05/27/millennial-recession-covid/
		


Also plenty of literature on it.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Nov 2022)

The nerve of me to buy a home to raise my children in and then not want to sell it to someone younger when they're gone. Ice floe shortage rears it's ugly head again. My Dad pounded into me to buy land when you can cos god ain't making any more of it. I stupidly led a hand to mouth existence on a Cpl's pay with four kids and wife who refused to get a job and help out. Only after I retired could I get a real job, in 2003, that paid enough to afford a home, 25 KM from a grocery store and 80 KM from a decent sized population centre. By then I had four teenagers at home, one autistic, and no wife crammed into a 980 sq ft home. I told them I couldn't afford university and pushed the trades on them. Livin the boomer dream baby!


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## IKnowNothing (9 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> You can see that excluding home equity the wealth of Boomers doubles that of Millennials and with equity it is 9 times.


Uncontrolled for age, that data is simply showing that in aggregate for the average person wealth is a function of years of workforce participation.


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## IKnowNothing (9 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> My Dad pounded into me to buy land when you can cos god ain't making any more of it.


You're inadvertently making the point.   It's not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty that there was cheap land/housing available when you were coming up.  Just as it's not a failing of millenials/Z that there isn't when they are, and you shouldn't feel superior to them because of it.

Over the last 6 years real estate has completely decoupled from income.  There's a planning issue on a societal level. This isn't about intergenerational conflict, just simple financial reality.  The calculus has changed.  Barring a complete collapse of the housing market there is a fundamental divide in expected lifetime wealth between those that got into the housing market in 2016 or prior (depending on sub region you could take that as far as 2019), and those that didn't.   A lot (the majority in rural areas) of millenials actually fall into the "have" category.  Older millenials that played the game well are actually exceptionally well set, if they avoided the temptation to overreach they've built multiple lifetimes worth of equity since buying homes in the mid-late oughts. 

The ones that are being screwed are the 96's and later.  It's no way their fault that a fixer upper starter home in rural Ontario is 400k plus.

Edit- timelines vary by province and region, but the trend is pretty consistent


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## Weinie (9 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> Unfortunately it’s not about how boomers planned individually for their own well-being long term.  In that regard they are probably even better at it than any generation but they were given the tools and opportunity that others have not,  no, what is meant by the second bullet is failure to plan long term from a societal perspective and what the political class decided to do.
> 
> All of this proves my point.
> 
> ...


Suck it up princess. Life is live.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Nov 2022)

No offence, but you and everyone like you fucked the world for everyone else. Nothing personal.


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## Remius (9 Nov 2022)

Kat Stevens said:


> No offence, but you and everyone like you fucked the world for everyone else. Nothing personal.


I wouldn’t blame the Boomers for that specifically but I understand why millennials are angry at those that did. 

And no I take nothing in this thread personally and neither should you lol.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> I wouldn’t blame the Boomers for that specifically but I understand why millennials are angry at those that did.
> 
> And no I take nothing in this thread personally and neither should you lol.


I guess I should have put that in quotations


----------



## Fishbone Jones (9 Nov 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> You're inadvertently making the point.   It's not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty that there was cheap land/housing available when you were coming up.  Just as it's not a failing of millenials/Z that there isn't when they are, and you shouldn't feel superior to them because of it.
> 
> Over the last 6 years real estate has completely decoupled from income.  There's a planning issue on a societal level. This isn't about intergenerational conflict, just simple financial reality.  The calculus has changed.  Barring a complete collapse of the housing market there is a fundamental divide in expected lifetime wealth between those that got into the housing market in 2016 or prior (depending on sub region you could take that as far as 2019), and those that didn't.   A lot (the majority in rural areas) of millenials actually fall into the "have" category.  Older millenials that played the game well are actually exceptionally well set, if they avoided the temptation to overreach they've built multiple lifetimes worth of equity since buying homes in the mid-late oughts.
> 
> ...


There is a planning issue. Know who was in charge of the countries finances, economy, taxes, and a myriad of other ridiculous ventures, for those six years? 

We Boomers took advantage of the fact that we had disposable income and governments that actually wanted to govern. Now there is none of that. We had governments that wanted lift us up and help us fend for ourselves, not make us destitute and needy on the government.
I will admit to one faux pas we made, that still echoes horribly in todays society. We made it impossible to get a job as a fry cook, unless you had Gr 12. We spent a generation trying to take labourers and make them doctors, lawyers and engineers. We failed ourselves on that issue. As the Greatest Generation died off, many Boomers took over the family businesses. Now that the Boomers are disappearing, the family businesses are disappearing fast also. There's too much red tape, filings, tax hoops, like inheritance tax, which strips survivors of their family property because the tax and government demands are ridiculous. So you sell the family business to pay your taxes, and when you've done that, the government still bankrupts you. We created a gap and a class system of white collar and blue collar. A real, identifiable gap. We lost our penchant for good physical labour. You don't need Gr 12 to work on an assembly line.  Am I laying a lot of blame on the current holders of the Iron Throne? Damn right I am. Millennials problems, wealth and support have all dwindled at a staggering rate since 2015. We could have a massive influx of labourers, working for good pay. However, I will accept the blame for the education level Boomers imposed on workers that don't need it. People learned how to do well paying work, in trades by placing apprentices under a master, who decided when you were ready to go off on your own. You can learn highly skilled jobs, without Grade 12, by osmosis. But that decision is up to the apprentice to do it and the masters are dying off. We have an apprentice program now that doesn't serve the need of the market. Unions and government red tape and rules have ruined the relationship by strangling the apprentice system. We got those jobs by walking around worksites and asking "Hey, need any help?" If they liked your work ethic and you liked the job, you could learn a trade without Grade 12. Can't do that now.

BUT:

Millennials helped elect their own demise.

 It's not their fault, but they should be looking to the government they helped elect, who have destroyed the economy, the housing market, innovation and threw thousands upon thousands of Millennials out of work in the high paying oil and gas sector

And now we circle back to the Decline of the Liberal Government.

You will own nothing and you will be happy.


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## FJAG (9 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> We made it impossible to get a job as a fry cook, unless you had Gr 12.


Fortunately, the education system ensures that everyone who sits in a chair in school long enough graduates with a grade twelve "education".

😖


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## Brad Sallows (9 Nov 2022)

While they exist, I doubt that the well-paying jobs in trades exist in large numbers.  Higher education in worthwhile subjects still yields a large financial payoff.  Over-education, or education in subjects not well-regarded, does not.  Pursuing an education and career path of choice is a right, but a payoff is not.  I suspect perceptions of the way things are, are coloured by what are merely poor individual choices in a time when social programs and society mitigate the fallout of poor individual choices.  The difference is stark between a society in which living with parents well past the age of 20 is possible, and one in which leaving school means leaving home.

The generation which raised the Boomers had experienced the Depression and WWII.  They were frugal, and passed that on.  Although the postwar economic boom changed habits, Boomers didn't become spendthrifts.  At least as young adults their consumption habits never came close to what people spend today on luxuries and entertainment.  Everything about their lives was comparatively modest.  I suspect part of their ultimate financial strength came from marrying young and staying married - raising kids when you don't have a lot of money is cheaper because there's no money to spend.

Real estate costs depend mainly on land costs.  It is simply the case that most of the land close in to the places people want to live and work is occupied.  That was always going to happen.  The only real fixes are to aim for zero population growth rate and stop transferring money to people who are already reasonably well off.  Either you vote for that if you can, or you don't.


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## Colin Parkinson (9 Nov 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> You're inadvertently making the point.   It's not your fault and you shouldn't feel guilty that there was cheap land/housing available when you were coming up.  Just as it's not a failing of millenials/Z that there isn't when they are, and you shouldn't feel superior to them because of it.
> 
> Over the last 6 years real estate has completely decoupled from income.  There's a planning issue on a societal level. This isn't about intergenerational conflict, just simple financial reality.  The calculus has changed.  Barring a complete collapse of the housing market there is a fundamental divide in expected lifetime wealth between those that got into the housing market in 2016 or prior (depending on sub region you could take that as far as 2019), and those that didn't.   A lot (the majority in rural areas) of millenials actually fall into the "have" category.  Older millenials that played the game well are actually exceptionally well set, if they avoided the temptation to overreach they've built multiple lifetimes worth of equity since buying homes in the mid-late oughts.
> 
> ...


People also forget that places like North Vancouver were not as desirable when I was growing up here, it was far rougher and more blue collar, hence the lower property prices. If you want to cast blame, it was the people with money and developers that drove out the average worker and made things to expensive. Coupled with policies that allowed overseas money to flood the market and drive prices beyond the average wage. Tie landownership to being a PR or a Citizen, remove numbered companies and have peoples professions listed on property documents.


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## mariomike (9 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> We moved away from an OJT model workforce to one that requires more education than is really required.



From a purely selfish point of view, as a possible future client, rather than a provider, I am thankful the new breed is better educated than we were.


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## IKnowNothing (9 Nov 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> People also forget that places like North Vancouver were not as desirable when I was growing up here, it was far rougher and more blue collar, hence the lower property prices. If you want to cast blame, it was the people with money and developers that drove out the average worker and made things to expensive. Coupled with policies that allowed overseas money to flood the market and drive prices beyond the average wage. Tie landownership to being a PR or a Citizen, remove *numbered companies and have peoples professions listed on property documents*.


I don't want to cast blame, just trying to point out the financial reality people are facing and take the temperature down a bit.  I like the bold a lot.

@Fishbone Jones , you missed the point of my post.  Regardless of whether a fry cook or assembly line worker has grade 12, it's damn near impossible for them to get ahead at those wages.


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## Brad Sallows (9 Nov 2022)

The financial reality is downstream from who people choose to vote for and the policies they support.  There's a direct line from things like tax cuts and government-paid daycare to increasing real estate prices.


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## YZT580 (9 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> Fortunately, the education system ensures that everyone who sits in a chair in school long enough graduates with a grade twelve "education".
> 
> 😖


A side note to the system:  high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making.  All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed.  There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10.  We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers.  Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> A side note to the system:  high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making.  All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed.  There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10.  We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers.  Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.


Q; Know what the Ontario teachers union says when the Russian mob in Toronto flexes it’s muscles? 
A; “Cute. Hold my beer.”


----------



## IKnowNothing (9 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> A side note to the system:  high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making.  All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed.  There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10.  We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers.  Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.


Somewhat correct.  Tech is still alive and well in many schools, bolstered by co-op programs.  And while there is an accreditation requirement it has been streamed for tech/vocational to enter with HS and 5 years paid in the trade in question instead of undergrad.   Good tech teachers and programs are absolute gold for the schools that have the space and funding to establish shops, off-site work busses etc.


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## FJAG (9 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> A side note to the system:  high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making.  All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed.  There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10.  We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers.  Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.


That's too bad. I actually started Grade 9 in Scarborough in what was then called "Science, Technology and Trades" which gave me six shop classes: wood, metal, automotive, electrical, machine and design - it was 100% male. The other two choices were "Arts and Science" which took you to Grade 13 and was the university prep stream, and Business and Commerce which was basically typing, bookkeeping and secretarial - the latter being 100% female. Both ST&T and B&C were Grade 12 level and the best you could do with that was Ryerson at the time which was then a polytechnical. 

I transferred to A&S for Grade 10 primarily because a new high school was opening up just down the street from where I lived (rather than a 15 minute bus ride for the one I was in previously) and it didn't have an ST&T program but it did have A&S  with a shop option which I took for my remaining years and which led me to joining the school's stage crew.

I think the thing for many boards and schools is that shop classes were much harder to manage and fund (not to mention safety issues) then a history or English class. That of course is short sighted in the extreme but a reality amongst bureaucracies. I went briefly to work as an electrician apprentice after high school before transferring from the ResF to the RegF. The shop experience has served me well in life. My wife and I do all our own home renovations from fine cabinet work to building an addition onto our house including drafting and wiring and plumbing. I simply can't comprehend folks that have no idea which end of a hammer to strike a nail with.

ST&T was a great career stream which probably covered a good part of what community college teaches now during first year. It got young folks earning a paycheck much earlier in life then they do now. Most of the guys I had started Grade 9 with had been on the job somewhere for two or three years before I joined the Army after Grade 13.

🍻


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## OldSolduer (9 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> A side note to the system:  high schools used to offer an introduction to trades with industrial arts classes including electric, electronic, drafting, design, automotive, small engines, carpentry including framing and cabinet making.  All vanished in the early 90's, at least in Ontario as the teacher's union ganged up on the boards and refused to allow tradesmen to be teachers without the prerequisite B.Ed.  There were even commercial courses with people graduating with a marketable skill after grade 10.  We lost those skills due to the Bob Rae and Mcginty's stints as premiers.  Strange how it was labour that screwed labour isn't it.


My mum - who was 100 when she passed - told me in Scotland/UK there were three streams:

The Professions - Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers etc

The Trades - Electric, Gas, Plumbing, Carpentry etc

The Laborers - those that would not fit anywhere else.


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## Nightingale93 (9 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> I'm a Millennial, very close to GenX but still in the Millennial cohort.
> 
> I believe the vast majority of Millennials, Boomers, GenX   Canadians, nowadays, are all mostly lazy and entitled.  I don't even think it's an age thing, I think it's a Canadian Society thing.
> 
> ...


And where on earth do people get these jobs in the first place? It isn’t as simple as just have a “high school diploma and show up”. Pretty much every job out there that isn’t a fast food joint wants you have “MiNiMuM tHrEe yEaRs ExPiErEnCe” or some bogus crap like that, even though a 10 year old can do it. Literally no on the job training at all since they want all the workers to have “past experience”
So no, there aren’t exactly “plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money”


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## Brad Sallows (9 Nov 2022)

If ordinary "shop" classes as they existed when I knew them have been degraded, someone has really f*cked up.  Probably someone with one or more degrees.


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## Humphrey Bogart (9 Nov 2022)

Remius said:


> There are actually several cohorts within the millennial grouping.  And to be honest I would probably classify them as almost three separate distinct groups but I digress.


Agreed.  I was born in the Mid-80s so I think my experiences are different than say, someone born in 1996 (the later generation of Millenial)


Remius said:


> Quite so.  I’m not debating laziness or entitlement though.


I understand what you're saying, the point I was trying to make was the following:

1.  There are the way things ought to be; then
2.  There are the way things are.

We seem to be focused on trying to make the imaginary/aspirational possible while ignoring the realities on the ground.


Remius said:


> Exactly.  It’s actually harder now than it was.


I don't agree that it's harder.  Harder is the wrong word, it's that the strategies being employed are no longer working as well as they once did.

The housing issue in Canada is classic "law of diminishing returns" in that as more and more money is spent, the less benefit is incurred.

The old strategies employed by our Parents and their generation are no longer working, they've essentially run their course.  

We have advantages and new ways of making money that our Parents never had though:

1.  The Internet + Media
2.  The Speed at which we are able to obtain and process information
3.  Near Instantaneous Access to Global Financial Markets
4.  Alternative Investment Vehicles like Cryptocurrency, etc.
5.  Ability to travel and relocate relatively cheaply.

The problem is that very few people are creating new strategies to take advantage of these significant advantages, they are instead relying on what their parents and those before them did.



Remius said:


> Again, this points to one of the issues I pointed out.  Student debt is a big thing in this country.  Why?  Because as I peresented, the boomer gen shifted to increased accredited education for everything.  Meaning more debt earlier in life and less productive working years earning wealth sooner.
> 
> Sure.  But we went through and are still going through the mentality that university is the only gateway to success and we don’t promote those jobs enough.  A product of an education system create by the previous generation.


Again, this is just poor financial literacy and a lack of understanding of the concept of dollar value.

If you go to School for basket weaving and are willing to take on enormous amounts of debt to learn to weave baskets, are you:

A.  A poor & hard done by soul that has been wrongfully robbed of their future?  Or

B.  An idiot who doesn't understand the value of a dollar?

You may think something is worth something, that doesn't mean it actually is.  

The sense of entitlement of my generation and those younger than me seems to be getting worse as the years go by.  I tell people all the time:  Nobody owes you anything.  The sooner you realize it, the better off you'll be.



Remius said:


> Glad to hear that your sector offers what used to be the norm.  OJT style system vs what we have developed over the decades in terms of over education and accreditation.


This is actually the norm in a lot of industries.  Mining, Oil & Gas, Railroads, etc all work off OJT style systems.  I just drove by a trucking company the other day who was advertising paid training and starting salaries of $48.00 an hour.  

Ironically, these are also jobs that pay some of the highest salaries in Canada and that nobody seems to want to do.



Remius said:


> The problem is that salary no longer motivâtes like it once did.


The only people who aren't motivated by money are again, people who don't understand the value of a dollar.  My grandmother (RIP) said two things to me about money that have stuck with me:

1.  I've been rich and I've been poor and rich is better; and

2.  Money can't buy happiness, but it sure helps!

I don't know why someone wouldn't want to have more money?  I personally want to accumulate as much of the stuff as humanly possible.

I'm willing to quit whatever I am doing and move anywhere if it means I can potentially make more of it.  I quit the CAF on a whim about 6 months ago, threw most of my stuff away and moved with my spouse to take a shot at a new career.  I am not done yet, this is the beginning and there will be much more to come after this.



Remius said:


> Again, it’s isn’t so much that (albeit I am sure it is for some). But goes to what motivates them.
> 
> I don’t understand millennials and I suspect I will keep struggling to understand them but what motivates them to get to  where they will get  is not the way you or I did it.


I don't think anything motivates most Millenials and younger people.  A lot of them suffer from what I call, learned helplessness.

They were coddled their entire life and now instead of their parents coddling them, they want the Government to do it.


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## RangerRay (9 Nov 2022)

Is it possible to move the intergenerational bun-fight to a different thread?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Nov 2022)

Nightingale93 said:


> And where on earth do people get these jobs in the first place? It isn’t as simple as just have a “high school diploma and show up”. Pretty much every job out there that isn’t a fast food joint wants you have “MiNiMuM tHrEe yEaRs ExPiErEnCe” or some bogus crap like that, even though a 10 year old can do it. Literally no on the job training at all since they want all the workers to have “past experience”
> So no, there aren’t exactly “plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money”


I had no prior Railroading experience prior to applying.  

I work with a few guys that got kicked out of School for being "the bad kids"  🤣 and they are now making more than 95% of Canadians.

Approximately 60% of new hires at the railway quit or get fired prior to qualifying.  Some get qualified then quit because they don't actually want the responsibility of running a train carrying $$$millions of dollars of goods.

Again, nobody owes you anything, if you want something bad enough, go get it.  Stop being so negative.  A lot of people fail because they don't even try.

I work with guys that initially got declined by the railway HR but didn't quit, went to a job fair in person, and the Superintendent happened to like them and offered a job.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Nov 2022)

It's OK, the post national global state will provide for your needs. You just have to do what you're told and don't make waves. You'll get a sleep cubicle and three squares of some processed plants and crickets. Taco Tuesdays will be something to tell the kids about the old days. Soylent Green anyone? 😂


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## Edward Campbell (9 Nov 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Is it possible to move the intergenerational bun-fight to a different thread?


I like the title: "*Intergenerational bun-fight.*"


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## Brad Sallows (9 Nov 2022)

One of the "old strategies" that probably still works: buy undeveloped lot on outskirts of town or even outside the town; build on it.  (This is the reality of what some people call the "good luck" of an earlier generation.)


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Nov 2022)

Through out the thread, we've heard tales of woe. Where's my house, where's my $100,000 job where I'm entitled to tell my boss, when I'll work, for how long and how hard? Where's my new truck? Why can't I have what Boomers have? I don't stand a chance in todays world.  And then the inevitable, when they don't get the answer they want, they blame someone else🥺

It's out there. Go find it and earn it. 

I'm starting to rehash.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Nov 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Is it possible to move the intergenerational bun-fight to a different thread?


I can think of one or two places to put it. You might need to roll it in a little ball and use some lube, but it'll fit there.


----------



## YZT580 (9 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> One of the "old strategies" that probably still works: buy undeveloped lot on outskirts of town or even outside the town; build on it.  (This is the reality of what some people call the "good luck" of an earlier generation.)


Except that the land on the outskirts of town is now 45 km. or further out.  One thing though is I don't see anyone building 1100 sq. ft. basic homes anymore.  They are all opting for 2000 plus on 30 to 50 ft. lots and all advertised by the preface "luxury".  Building costs for a basic home are still around 350000 plus land value from what my local hardware tells me so 5000000 total except that no one is building them


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## Remius (9 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> I can think of one or two places to put it. You might need to roll it in a little ball and use some lube, but it'll fit there.


Wow.  This whole thing really has triggered you lol.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Except that the land on the outskirts of town is now 45 km. or further out.  One thing though is I don't see anyone building 1100 sq. ft. basic homes anymore.  They are all opting for 2000 plus on 30 to 50 ft. lots and all advertised by the preface "luxury".  Building costs for a basic home are still around 350000 plus land value from what my local hardware tells me so 5000000 total except that no one is building them


Lease to own the land and build your own tiny house until you can afford better maybe?

If you don't want to listen to me, Pierre explains pretty well what is going on. And why most people are having a hard time making ends meet. Not just Millennials. One cheque away from poverty. And trudeau wants that paycheque as well.

And I'll keep pounding the point, that Millennials aren't blameless in this current government's place in history. I don't know a single Boomer that gave trudeau a second glance. Boomers knew communism and what it looks like, thanks to us knowing Pierre. And Justin is proud to say he learned his politics at his father's knee. And it shows. Now he's in a dick measuring contest with Dad's ghost and legacy and we are his edge.

You reap what you sow.

I just want to make one more quick observation. The Greatest Generation and Boomers put man on the moon in 1969. It was done with slide rules, physics and a pencil and paper. Today, a simple burner phone has more computer power than the mission in 69. But we kept going up there. 11 more astronauts until 72. What happened to the drive, innovation, the dreams and the just plain guts that allowed us to do that? I don't see that anymore.

Anyway, back to our regular programming.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=5662718310463937


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## YZT580 (9 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Lease to own the land and build your own tiny house until you can afford better maybe?
> 
> If you don't want to listen to me, Pierre explains pretty well what is going on. And why most people are having a hard time making ends meet. Not just Millennials. One cheque away from poverty. And trudeau wants that paycheque as well.
> 
> ...


it worked for the veterans coming home in '45.  None of them had any savings to speak of.  If you drive through the boroughs around Toronto you will see hundreds of 800 sq. ft. brick bungalows on 30 ft. lots.  Elsewhere there are storey and a half frame or insulbrick (when built) with two bedrooms up, one on the main floor and only one bathroom and that was on the ground floor as well.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Nov 2022)

Not a huge fan of this guy, but even he's starting to see the poop on the wall.


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## lenaitch (9 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> From a purely selfish point of view, as a possible future client, rather than a provider, I am thankful the new breed is better educated than we were.


Your former profession is a prime example.  Back in the day, your predecessors, particularly in the rurals, were rightly called 'ambulance drivers' or 'ambulance attendants'.  Scoop and run with basic first aid, probably an orderly at the local hospital who's pager went off.  First responder care, auto extracation and better vehicle design are part of the reason our provincial vehicle fatality rate is about 1/3 it was in the '70s.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (9 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> One of the "old strategies" that probably still works: buy undeveloped lot on outskirts of town or even outside the town; build on it.  (This is the reality of what some people call the "good luck" of an earlier generation.)


Unless of course you have a mountain there or a ocean. Anything around here that is undeveloped, is because it's in the ALR, Flood zone or has major geo-technical issues.


----------



## lenaitch (9 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> That's too bad. I actually started Grade 9 in Scarborough in what was then called "Science, Technology and Trades" which gave me six shop classes: wood, metal, automotive, electrical, machine and design - it was 100% male. The other two choices were "Arts and Science" which took you to Grade 13 and was the university prep stream, and Business and Commerce which was basically typing, bookkeeping and secretarial - the latter being 100% female. Both ST&T and B&C were Grade 12 level and the best you could do with that was Ryerson at the time which was then a polytechnical.
> 
> I transferred to A&S for Grade 10 primarily because a new high school was opening up just down the street from where I lived (rather than a 15 minute bus ride for the one I was in previously) and it didn't have an ST&T program but it did have A&S  with a shop option which I took for my remaining years and which led me to joining the school's stage crew.
> 
> ...


Wow, did that bring back some memories!  I went to a North York high school that had every shop imaginable plus a computer that they had to build an addition to house.  I was a 'pioneer'(?) in a 5-year ST&T program.  We were destined for university; engineering, Architecture, BSc, etc. so weren't allowed to take most of the shops.  We were limited to electricity/electronics and machine/architectural drafting and looked enviously at our peers who got to take the cool shops.  I never went to university, or Grade 13.

You are right about the 4-year program intended for the trades, but forgot about the 2-year programs.  Those programs were to accommodate the kids who intended to stay in school only as long as the law required - or it was a condition of their probation.

The wife went to D&M Thompson BTW. 😁


----------



## lenaitch (9 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> There are plenty of jobs out there that pay very good money.  I work as a Switchman/Conductor right now for a Class 1 Railroad, the average Conductor at my terminal makes over $100,000.00 a year with the top earners making arouns $140,000.00.  Locomotive Engineers (the direct promotion) make between $160,000.00 and $200,000.00 a year.
> 
> Want to know what the qualifications are to get in to the trade?  High School GED and you show up to work when they call you and do your work safely and without complaint.
> 
> ...


I was part of a discussion on another thread with a poster who is a running trade for a carrier in the GTA and he said exactly the same thing.  When recruits find out they have to start on the spare board with inconsistent hours and - gasp - have to work weekends, they walk.  It seems the concept of seniority and starting at the bottom aren't recognized much anymore.  I suppose money isn't the same motivator when you still get to live with your folks.

My brother was in the hospitality industry all of his career and part of it was managing a group of restaurants in the GTA.  The biggest frustration for managers, and this is in the 80s and 90s, was staffing.  Servers, et al worked until they had enough for their rent, vacation, or whatever else they had their eye on, then just stopped showing up.  Their immediate needs of the moment satisfied, they would find another job.

I don't know if it is a generational thing or an urban thing - or a combination of the two, but I don't get the concept of not being willing to move to earn a living or follow a career.  Heck, some downtown Toronto urbanites wouldn't even consider moving north of Bloor.  The apparent need to be near family, friends, you favourite club or restaurant, seems to override everything else.


----------



## Nightingale93 (9 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> I was part of a discussion on another thread with a poster who is a running trade for a carrier in the GTA and he said exactly the same thing.  When recruits find out they have to start on the spare board with inconsistent hours and - gasp - have to work weekends, they walk.  It seems the concept of seniority and starting at the bottom aren't recognized much anymore.  I suppose money isn't the same motivator when you still get to live with your folks.
> 
> My brother was in the hospitality industry all of his career and part of it was managing a group of restaurants in the GTA.  The biggest frustration for managers, and this is in the 80s and 90s, was staffing.  Servers, et al worked until they had enough for their rent, vacation, or whatever else they had their eye on, then just stopped showing up.  Their immediate needs of the moment satisfied, they would find another job.
> 
> I don't know if it is a generational thing or an urban thing - or a combination of the two, but I don't get the concept of not being willing to move to earn a living or follow a career.  Heck, some downtown Toronto urbanites wouldn't even consider moving north of Bloor.  The apparent need to be near family, friends, you favourite club or restaurant, seems to override everything else.


Moving isn’t as simple as “just move”.
The costs associated with moving are not cheap at all, and from what I hear from people in the CAF, it’s takes a toll having to move every 3-4 years especially if you have a spouse and kids.


----------



## mariomike (9 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Your former profession is a prime example.  Back in the day, your predecessors, particularly in the rurals, were rightly called 'ambulance drivers' or 'ambulance attendants'.  Scoop and run with basic first aid, probably an orderly at the local hospital who's pager went off.  First responder care, auto extracation and better vehicle design are part of the reason our provincial vehicle fatality rate is about 1/3 it was in the '70s.



I don't know how they did it out of town.

The Metropolitan Toronto Department of Emergency Services (D.E.S.) ran a mandatory 160 hour recruit training program since 1967.

In 1973, that was expanded to 1,400 hours. Then expanded to two years. Before you can even apply.

Now, there is an Honours Bachelor of Science degree program at U of T.

That's in addition to in-service training, and 12-18 months probation.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (9 Nov 2022)

Nightingale93 said:


> Moving isn’t as simple as “just move”.
> The costs associated with moving are not cheap at all, and from what I hear from people in the CAF, it’s takes a toll having to move every 3-4 years especially if you have a spouse and kids.


It cost me under $4500.00 to move halfway across the Country.  Moving is also something you can claim on taxes at the end of the year if you move for work.

My Company also gave me a $5000.00 signing bonus so it actually didn't cost me anything.

I planned the move over six months.


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## lenaitch (9 Nov 2022)

Nightingale93 said:


> Moving isn’t as simple as “just move”.
> The costs associated with moving are not cheap at all, and from what I hear from people in the CAF, it’s takes a toll having to move every 3-4 years especially if you have a spouse and kids.


True, but not moving and not earning a decent income, or at least setting yourself on the road to a decent income or career, comes with a cost.  Typically, the younger you are, the less stuff you have so less the cost.  If the distance isn't nuts, the younger you are, you can often pick on friends, beer and pizza to git 'er done.  We in our current house now 12 years - longest I've been in one place since I left home at 22,  and I'm kinda-sorta normal.  🤪 

The military is a bit of an outlier in today's world, but it earlier times probably wasn't typically unique.  Bank managers and those on the manager track used to be moved, a lot, and many small branches had a house or apartment you just took over.  A buddy was a career IBMer and the inside joke was IBM stood for 'I've Been Moved'.

As well, a lot of the trades involved in commercial, public infrastructure, mining or an area that is particularly specialized, are constantly chasing work.  Often, not pulling up stakes and moving, but being away from home, a lot.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> True, but not moving and not earning a decent income, or at least setting yourself on the road to a decent income or career, comes with a cost.  Typically, the younger you are, the less stuff you have so less the cost.  If the distance isn't nuts, the younger you are, you can often pick on friends, beer and pizza to git 'er done.  We in our current house now 12 years - longest I've been in one place since I left home at 22,  and I'm kinda-sorta normal.  🤪
> 
> The military is a bit of an outlier in today's world, but it earlier times probably wasn't typically unique.  Bank managers and those on the manager track used to be moved, a lot, and many small branches had a house or apartment you just took over.  A buddy was a career IBMer and the inside joke was IBM stood for 'I've Been Moved'.
> 
> As well, a lot of the trades involved in commercial, public infrastructure, mining or an area that is particularly specialized, are constantly chasing work.  Often, not pulling up stakes and moving, but being away from home, a lot.


UXO tech enters the chat


----------



## IKnowNothing (9 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> Except that the land on the outskirts of town is now 45 km. or further out.  One thing though is I don't see anyone building 1100 sq. ft. basic homes anymore.  They are all opting for 2000 plus on 30 to 50 ft. lots and all advertised by the preface "luxury".  Building costs for a basic home are still around 350000 plus land value from what my local hardware tells me so 5000000 total except that no one is building them


Fair numbers, maybe a little low.  Sticking points-
->acquiring said lot for said number- good luck. If it exists (and is buildable) developers and custom home builders are going to be all over it
->financing. Vacant land transactions skew towards 50% down, construction mortgages another 20%. 135k down (plus ~10k in permitting and development), full mortgage payments on the vacant land, interest only on the construction as progress draws are being released, while still paying for somewhere else to live

Harder to swing than just buying the overpriced 500k house.  And that 1st sticking point is the big one.  Freehold residential building lots are unicorns in populated areas.


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## Brad Sallows (9 Nov 2022)

As we speak, there is land being redeveloped from "acreages" into condos and townhouse complexes (and a few detached homes) near where I live, much less than 45 km outside of "town" (Vancouver).


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## YZT580 (9 Nov 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Fair numbers, maybe a little low.  Sticking points-
> ->acquiring said lot for said number- good luck. If it exists (and is buildable) developers and custom home builders are going to be all over it
> ->financing. Vacant land transactions skew towards 50% down, construction mortgages another 20%. 135k down (plus ~10k in permitting and development), full mortgage payments on the vacant land, interest only on the construction as progress draws are being released, while still paying for somewhere else to live
> 
> Harder to swing than just buying the overpriced 500k house.  And that 1st sticking point is the big one.  Freehold residential building lots are unicorns in populated areas.


The notion was to buy a lot and build your own home not development land.  Just did a quick search centred on Milton, Ontario.  No single lots showed up within any town limits.  Found only one less than two acre lot under a million.  Acreage for development can be had for 2 million plus per acre.  I don't know what it costs to fully service a lot but I think they can put about 6 singles on a one acre lot so that would be a base price of 333000.  Construction costs for a modular home are approximately 160 a square foot so 500000 or close to it should be doable which brings me back to my point.  No builder seems to be constructing small, basic homes.  To make things worse, the trend here is to buy an older home in need of repair, so-called handyman's special, rip it down and build either build two semis or more if you can sweet talk the town into approving it, or option B, construct a 3000 square ft. plus for the high end market.  This has driven the price of older homes through the roof.  Towns love it 'cause the tax base goes up but the poor clerk in the local variety store can't afford to live in his own town anymore.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Nov 2022)

Why does it have to be Milton? There's lots of small towns with lots and homes available. Or like I said, build a tiny house and start out living some what within thier means. He'll, you can turn a $3000 sea container into some pretty nice digs. They are building 3 level homes with those now. Nobody needs a fancy house to start. You want heat and shelter. Niceties can be added as you go. We've also printed some 3D homes down here recently.


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## YZT580 (10 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Why does it have to be Milton? There's lots of small towns with lots and homes available. Or like I said, build a tiny house and start out living some what within thier means. He'll, you can turn a $3000 sea container into some pretty nice digs. They are building 3 level homes with those now. Nobody needs a fancy house to start. You want heat and shelter. Niceties can be added as you go. We've also printed some 3D homes down here recently.


If you can get the land.  And Milton was just a for-instance to avoid talking about Toronto or some other major city.  Town zoning can also require minimum square footage or dictate the materials used.


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## Brad Sallows (10 Nov 2022)

Builders will want to max out the resale value of whatever they put on a piece of land, but subject to what people will buy.  People who buy are essentially saying they want large homes with fancy (but costly) architectural quiffs - gables, bay windows, pot lamps in every overhanging surface...

Of course, when you build on your own land (or hire a contractor), you build what you want.

Very little of what goes on in local zoning and provincial building codes can be laid at the feet of federal political parties, though.


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Nov 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> As we speak, there is land being redeveloped from "acreages" into condos and townhouse complexes (and a few detached homes) near where I live, much less than 45 km outside of "town" (Vancouver).


The ALR is no match for a developers and their pet politicians.


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## IKnowNothing (10 Nov 2022)

YZT580 said:


> The notion was to buy a lot and build your own home not development land.  Just did a quick search centred on Milton, Ontario.


Yup, that was the premise I was working on.  Still dinged with development charges in many jurisdictions.  Truth be told I didn't even consider looking at Barrie over to Tri-City down into the greater Golden Horseshoe.  The chance of any private individual getting a single building lot free and clear of a developer or community development plan is slim to none.

500k is likely fair, the mix might just change. Scanning midwestern Ontario (Grey/Bruce/Perth/Wellington) single building lots seem to float in the 150-300k range (generally skewing higher), people in the area tend to use 200/ft for single level (unless you're your own general and getting some work done cash). If you're out of town looking at a 5-15k well, 10-20k septic.

Overall point is that there's not a glaring market innefficiency just waiting to be exploited by anyone with the gumption to do it instead of complaino g about the cost of a home


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Nov 2022)

You all sound like defeatists 🙂

Everyone is complaining, but nobody is offering solutions. I hear Boomers offering comment on what to do, but it is immediately pooh poohed with no counter other than, "It cost too much."

Again, why Barrie. Why not Barrys Bay? Or North Bay? Or Kapuskasing? Lots of land in those places.

I had two young Corporals, at separate times, that went north to Red Deer. To start their careers. One became a Mining Engineer and the other started as security at the mine and ended up as OPP there. Neither had anything when they went there. Both are still there with families and homes now. They love it there. And this was in the near , not to distance past. Why did they go? Because they heard there was work to be had, and they had the guts to take a chance.

If it's too expensive where you are, to live and make a living, move to where it's not.

Starting , oh let's say around Sudbury and north of that. There's tons of unincorporated township areas. When you are in one of those, you need no permits, inspections or anything else, except time and fortitude, to build. Buy a partial lot and get at it. Go for a job, that you can do from there, by computer. Or better yet, start your own cottage industry.

Forget instant gratification and do it the old fashioned way. It is already a proven way, by millions that went before.

Pioneers got their land, started by living in a lean to, or similar, and constantly improved and added on over time to where they had something the family could call home.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> You all sound like defeatists 🙂
> 
> Everyone is complaining, but nobody is offering solutions. I hear Boomers offering comment on what to do, but it is immediately pooh poohed with no counter other than, "It cost too much."
> 
> ...



Our average age is the highest it's ever been and we're getting older.

'Little House on the Prairie' isn't much of a thing anymore....


Canada's population estimates: Age and sex, July 1, 2021​

While the pandemic affected population growth in 2020/2021, its impact on the age structure of the Canadian population was not as pronounced.

Canada's population continues to age, with the average age increasing from 41.4 years on July 1, 2020, to 41.7 years on July 1, 2021. Almost one in five (18.5%) Canadians are now aged 65 and older, and the number of centenarians rose 1,100 year over year to 12,822 as of July 1, 2021.





__





						The Daily — Canada's population estimates: Age and sex, July 1, 2021
					

Canada's population growth has slowed following border restrictions to curb the spread of COVID-19. Although the population continued to grow during the 12-month period ending on June 30, 2021 (year 2020/2021), the pace of growth (estimated at +0.5%) was less than half the growth measured a year...




					www150.statcan.gc.ca


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Nov 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Our average age is the highest it's ever been and we're getting older.
> 
> 'Little House on the Prairie' isn't much of a thing anymore....
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure we were talking Millennials and beyond. You don't have to be Laura Ingals. That was an example of the pioneer spirit only. Unless you're infantry, nobody is expected to live in a hole in the ground.

People can and are, doing exactly as I said.

You can build a Tiny House instead of a sod shack. There's not much, if any, in the south. But there's lots of Crown Land up north. A 99 year lease is cheap.

Food? It's there. You just have to catch it, grow it or find it. None of the supermarket animals that come in styrofoam and plastic.

Here's a great traininig aid. And it's on film. So no effort expended watching it.  😁


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## IKnowNothing (10 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> The housing issue in Canada is classic "law of diminishing returns" in that as more and more money is spent, the less benefit is incurred.
> 
> The old strategies employed by our Parents and their generation are no longer working, they've essentially run their course.


I'm not sure if the bill is well thought out in it's entirety, but removing the restrictions on adding a 2nd/3rd unit to the same property could have an absolutely huge impact for those that have the space and make use of it.


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## Furniture (10 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> You all sound like defeatists 🙂
> 
> Everyone is complaining, but nobody is offering solutions. I hear Boomers offering comment on what to do, but it is immediately pooh poohed with no counter other than, "It cost too much."
> 
> ...


What do you propose people do for employment in those places? Most of the mining, forestry, milling, etc., that brought those towns to life has gone away. People aren't moving to the cities because they necessarily want to live in cities, they are moving there because the industries that kept people more rural have dried up, in many cases due to cheap foreign labour, automation, and regulation.


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> What do you propose people do for employment in those places? Most of the mining, forestry, milling, etc., that brought those towns to life has gone away. People aren't moving to the cities because they necessarily want to live in cities, they are moving there because the industries that kept people more rural have dried up in many cases due to cheap foreign labour, automation, and regulation.


Maybe that's the problem. No imagination. There's lots people can do to make money.

Nobody is guaranteed  their dream job. Sometimes, you just gotta finally stop demanding and asking questions. Sometimes, you have to do research and use your imagination. Sometimes, you need to buckle down, create some finances so you can gain a foothold. You do that by doing what is hard and not being afraid to do something you may not want to. Tough. If you need to start somewhere, start by believing, you can do whatever you need to, and get moving. Or you can beat the pavement in Toronto. I'm sure, eventually after doing that for a decade or so, you will land your middle management, $90,000 job with benefits. Or not. That's a recipe for ending up with a career packing boxes at an Amazon hub.

Private entrepreneurs have been around forever, offering things others don't and providing services. Individual opportunity and drive to do the hard, unpopular thing, built this country. Maybe they can take a marketing class to get started.

Life is hard. Everyone knows the rest. I won't finish the phrase as it doesn't apply. I won't hang a 'stupid' moniker on people stuck in a bad situation. Sometimes you have to make hard choices. If you can't, you'll never be successful in life as someone able to make their own direction in the world. You will just be another worker bee and have other people tell you what to do after all. Accepting whatever wage they decide to give you and being unsatisfied your whole life.

I am not offering any more opinion or solutions. Or answering questions that start with yabut. If you want discussion you'll  have to start the conversation. It's easy. Give me one good solid idea how Millennials, et al, can make their way in the world and how they can do it individually, without leaning on or blaming someone else. How they can stand on their own two feet and become a hard charger with guts and gumption to take the bull by the horns. We can discuss your solution. We've offered enough suggestions and the reasons for our points. The other side just keeps blowing them off, because they didn't like the option offered.

Let us Boomers here know, what you are planning to do, individually. What can the individual do, to make it in life instead of asking us what we can give/owe you or offering excuses. The only thing anyone in this country, is entitled to is whatever is in the Constitution and Charter. Although that has been questionable lately.

So, no more questions or blame. You tell us, how you are going to solve the problem. You have to end your solution with the person making a living wage themselves. No social financing.


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## Colin Parkinson (10 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> What do you propose people do for employment in those places? Most of the mining, forestry, milling, etc., that brought those towns to life has gone away. People aren't moving to the cities because they necessarily want to live in cities, they are moving there because the industries that kept people more rural have dried up, in many cases due to cheap foreign labour, automation, and regulation.


In BC right now, three projects employ between 10-15,000 skilled workers. When those projects are done. There is nothing on the books for them. Thanks to a large part on the Liberal policies.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Nov 2022)

Colin Parkinson said:


> In BC right now, three projects employ between 10-15,000 skilled workers. When those projects are done. There is nothing on the books for them. Thanks to a large part on the Liberal policies.



Interestingly enough, having speaking to some of the folks running very big projects like those, they say that they would like to hire more BC residents but, sadly, they can't find enough who are properly qualified.

One guy said 'my office looks like the United Nations' because he had to hire people from South America, the USA, Africa, Europe and Asia when he couldn't find enough suitable candidates here.


----------



## Furniture (10 Nov 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Maybe that's the problem. No imagination. There's lots people can do to make money.
> 
> Nobody is guaranteed  their dream job. Sometimes, you just gotta finally stop demanding and asking questions. Sometimes, you have to do research and use your imagination. Sometimes, you need to buckle down, create some finances so you can gain a foothold. You do that by doing what is hard and not being afraid to do something you may not want to. Tough. If you need to start somewhere, start by believing, you can do whatever you need to, and get moving. Or you can beat the pavement in Toronto. I'm sure, eventually after doing that for a decade or so, you will land your middle management, $90,000 job with benefits. Or not. That's a recipe for ending up with a career packing boxes at an Amazon hub.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of words to say, "young people are dumb and lazy". 

What built Canada was a need for a large labour force to harvest raw materials, and to then process those raw materials into things. That large labour force needed support services, and entrepreneurs could find ways to provide services to those labourers. 

I'm not blaming anyone for anything, I'm simply pointing out that what you suggested is not a realistic solution. Perhaps argue my point, rather than lumping me into some broader generational bunfight.


----------



## IKnowNothing (10 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> That's a lot of words to say, "young people are dumb and lazy".
> 
> What built Canada was a need for a large labour force to harvest raw materials, and to then process those raw materials into things. That large labour force needed support services, and entrepreneurs could find ways to provide services to those labourers.
> 
> I'm not blaming anyone for anything, I'm simply pointing out that what you suggested is not a realistic solution. Perhaps argue my point, rather than lumping me into some broader generational bunfight.


Yeah, when the issue is this,  "stop pointing out objective reality, fuck off to the bush if you don't like it" isn't really a solution.


----------



## lenaitch (10 Nov 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Yup, that was the premise I was working on.  Still dinged with development charges in many jurisdictions.  Truth be told I didn't even consider looking at Barrie over to Tri-City down into the greater Golden Horseshoe.  The chance of any private individual getting a single building lot free and clear of a developer or community development plan is slim to none.
> 
> 500k is likely fair, the mix might just change. Scanning midwestern Ontario (Grey/Bruce/Perth/Wellington) single building lots seem to float in the 150-300k range (generally skewing higher), people in the area tend to use 200/ft for single level (unless you're your own general and getting some work done cash). If you're out of town looking at a 5-15k well, 10-20k septic.
> 
> Overall point is that there's not a glaring market innefficiency just waiting to be exploited by anyone with the gumption to do it instead of complaino g about the cost of a home


I doubt you will find a builder's lot in an urban area in Ontario unless it is an in-fill in an older area (or a tear-down) or a toney area of +acre lots.  When your talking about a tract of urban lots (typically 40'-60' these days), developers want to develop their land as quickly and cheaply as possible, and councils want cohesive communities, at least in appearance.  Site plans and restrictive covenants or go so far. Trades come in, work on multiple similar or plan book houses, then move on.  General contractors get to coordinate trades on a large scale and the per-unit cost is a lot less than a bespoke build.  

We live in a 'rural estate' subdivision of about 150 houses that has been around since 1995.  None of the lots remain unsold but some are still vacant.  I suppose some bought them as an investment, for retirement or whatever.  When everything is 2 acres and up, if somebody builds next door, it's disruptive, but no where near what it would be if we were 40 or 50' lots.

The thing with moving to the boonies is employment and kids.  Not everybody can WFH for an employer, set up a home business or become a social media influencer, and kids either need to be on a bus route, be driven, or home schooled.  Rural connectivity is still a major problem, although Starlink may be on the road to solving that (not cheap).  Major resource or infrastructure projects take a whole lot more people to develop than they do to operate.  I don't know about other provinces, but Ontario will not approve new townsites at mines, etc. since they know they will inherit a ghost town down the road.

I'm all for living in the rurals; I left Toronto and never looked back, but I recognize it's not for everyone.


Fishbone Jones said:


> Again, why Barrie. Why not Barrys Bay? Or North Bay? Or Kapuskasing? Lots of land in those places.
> 
> I had two young Corporals, at separate times, that went north to Red Deer. To start their careers. One became a Mining Engineer and the other started as security at the mine and ended up as OPP there.


We're thinking of moving to the North Bay area next year (kid's there).  Not cheap, even the outskirts which, like many northern communities, are limited.

Living in Red Deer and working for the OPP - quite the commute!


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Nov 2022)

Furniture said:


> That's a lot of words to say, "young people are dumb and lazy".
> 
> What built Canada was a need for a large labour force to harvest raw materials, and to then process those raw materials into things. That large labour force needed support services, and entrepreneurs could find ways to provide services to those labourers.
> 
> I'm not blaming anyone for anything, I'm simply pointing out that what you suggested is not a realistic solution. Perhaps argue my point, rather than lumping me into some broader generational bunfight.


That is your interpretation, not mine.
I'm not addressing your post further.You offered no solutions. 
Only misplaced and ignorant blame. I only used your post to preface my post, with zero to do with you personally.
That's as far as I go with your post.
Try this stuff.


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## torg003 (10 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> Living in Red Deer and working for the OPP - quite the commute!


I live in Red Deer, and I feel sorry for them.


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## Fishbone Jones (10 Nov 2022)

torg003 said:


> I live in Red Deer, and I feel sorry for them.




Sorry I meant Red Lake, Ontario. My mistake. I had been reading about Red Deer earlier.


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## FJAG (10 Nov 2022)

lenaitch said:


> You are right about the 4-year program intended for the trades, but forgot about the 2-year programs. Those programs were to accommodate the kids who intended to stay in school only as long as the law required - or it was a condition of their probation.


 I didn't know about any 2 year program but that didn't matter. Two of the kids that started Grade nine with me disappeared after the first week. They came back after one and two months respectively after having spent the interval in some youth correctional facility or other. They, of course, became the class heroes. A lot of the guys in that class never made it far beyond two years as it was.



lenaitch said:


> The wife went to D&M Thompson BTW. 😁


I know it well. I did my first year at RH King and finished off at Birchmount Park.

🍻


----------



## mariomike (10 Nov 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> I'm not sure if the bill is well thought out in it's entirety, but removing the restrictions on adding a 2nd/3rd unit to the same property could have an absolutely huge impact for those that have the space and make use of it.



First I heard of that. It would have an "absolutely huge" impact on our neighbourhood.

We don't have consistent elevation levels. Our streets are not straight or even. They follow paths of green and open space. Very winding with steep hill sides and ravines. There are no sidewalks. Surrounded by the Humber River, Grenadier Pond, Rennie Pond, Catfish Pond and Lake Ontario. Directly beside these bodies of water tends to be a lot of open space, allowing for wildlife to thrive and also keeps the residential area a safe distance away in case of a flood, or other natural disaster.

If it comes from Queen's Park, I do not suppose our local ratepayer's association will have any say in the matter.


----------



## IKnowNothing (11 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> First I heard of that. It would have an "absolutely huge" impact on our neighbourhood.
> 
> We don't have consistent elevation levels. Our streets are not straight or even. They follow paths of green and open space. Very winding with steep hill sides and ravines. There are no sidewalks. Surrounded by the Humber River, Grenadier Pond, Rennie Pond, Catfish Pond and Lake Ontario. Directly beside these bodies of water tends to be a lot of open space, allowing for wildlife to thrive and also keeps the residential area a safe distance away in case of a flood, or other natural disaster.
> 
> If it comes from Queen's Park, I do not suppose our local ratepayer's association will have any say in the matter.


Vague but some info

Not carte blanche- set backs, maximum lot coverage, OBC septic requirements etc. still apply.  It doesn't do much for the adults on the outside looking in now.  But for those of us that have gotten ours and are more worried about our children it does present an option to plan for, work towards, and take a multi-generational approach without having to share a space or buy separate properties.


----------



## mariomike (11 Nov 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Vague but some info
> 
> Not carte blanche- set backs, maximum lot coverage, OBC septic requirements etc. still apply.  It doesn't do much for the adults on the outside looking in now.  But for those of us that have gotten ours and are more worried about our children it does present an option to plan for, work towards, and take a multi-generational approach without having to share a space or buy separate properties.



Thanks for that, IKN. 









						Ontario announces sweeping housing changes that allow three units on one property
					

The Ontario government announced sweeping housing changes on Tuesday that will override municipal zoning laws in some situations and allow for the construction of up to three units on each residential lot.




					toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## lenaitch (11 Nov 2022)

mariomike said:


> Thanks for that, IKN.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The way I understand it, the change to the provincial law was enabling legislation, and much of the site plan rules were left up to the muncipalities.  I know in Barrie they had to go back to  the drawing board to clean up some of their rules after a couple of 'tertiary' builds really pissed off neighbours and damaged or impaired adjoining property


----------



## lenaitch (11 Nov 2022)

FJAG said:


> I didn't know about any 2 year program but that didn't matter. Two of the kids that started Grade nine with me disappeared after the first week. They came back after one and two months respectively after having spent the interval in some youth correctional facility or other. They, of course, became the class heroes. A lot of the guys in that class never made it far beyond two years as it was.
> 
> 
> I know it well. I did my first year at RH King and finished off at Birchmount Park.
> ...


The 2-year tech guys were the better pool players and the 2-year business (clerical) girls were the 'fun girls'.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Nov 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> For a site where people bitch a lot about Canadians not being financially literate, weird seeing some basic suggestions for cutting extras to pay for the basics being met with derision. If you see the quote in full context, she was saying 'every little bit helps' not this fixes things. Doing the same to all your expenses is part of balancing your cheque book.
> 
> Lots of things the government can be doing to (but not consistent with being small government) but smart phones, entertainment etc are all padding if you need to cut expenses to pay for food.


Which is fundamentally true about having one’s financial house in order, but the very same government that arguably set many up contrary to such wisdom, by vomiting CERB and other manna from heaven monies like it’s flowing from an endless fountain not tied to national debt.


----------



## Good2Golf (11 Nov 2022)

Humphrey Bogart said:


> My Company also gave me a $5000.00 signing bonus so it actually didn't cost me anything.


Ah, I’d love to be in your 10% tax bracket! 😉


----------



## daftandbarmy (12 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Which is fundamentally true about having one’s financial house in order, but the very same government that arguably set many up contrary to such wisdom, by vomiting CERB and other manna from heaven monies like it’s flowing from an endless fountain not tied to national debt.



Which may have, coincidentally, done a good job of moving people at the lower end of the income spectrum out of 'job finding' mode.


----------



## Navy_Pete (12 Nov 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> Which is fundamentally true about having one’s financial house in order, but the very same government that arguably set many up contrary to such wisdom, by vomiting CERB and other manna from heaven monies like it’s flowing from an endless fountain not tied to national debt.


I don't know, I saw a lot of people who would have been completely foxed without CERB as they were out of work due to COVID.

If the various level of governments are going to shutter businesses for pandemic reasons, just see it as a cost of the health policy. I'm sure there are smart people that can crunch the numbers between things like CERB and loss of future earnings from the 'do nothing and let COVID rip' option, which likely would have completely broken the health care system which has been neglected for ages.



daftandbarmy said:


> Which may have, coincidentally, done a good job of moving people at the lower end of the income spectrum out of 'job finding' mode.


CERB was pretty short term, but given that schools were gone remote, for any family it takes a lot to pay for day care. If it is going to cost someone income to go to work, have to scramble to find day care etc plus the risk of catching COVID why would they?

Some people will be parasitic wastes on any kind of social safety net, but lot of working poor/borderline folks that needed the lifeline.


----------



## dapaterson (12 Nov 2022)

Most business folks I knew complaining "nobody wants to work because of CERB" were complaining months after it had ceased.

The challenge industries like hospitality had were that they traditionally have high rates of staff turnover; they did not hire when public health measures were in / out because they did not want to get saddled with cost of personnel if they didn't know what the future held; and then all tried to hire to fill their multiple vacancies at the same time, and discovered that finding and holding quality staff was more challenging.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Dec 2022)

Canadians have a skewed, pablum fed view of Canadian politics. Very few watch anything that resembles foreign news or what goes on outside our borders. They rely on legacy MSM to educate and explain things to them. They see nothing to contradict these views. So they believe them. When legacy media says he's making great decisions and looking after Canada. Well, that's not how the EU sees him. These are people that have seen what dictators look like and are capable of. Not enough Canadians know what the world really thinks. And he hasn't even passed his internet censorship bill. There will be less knowledge allowed to Canadians.

This is not the first time he's been called out. An earlier instance had our legacy media describing the audience on their feet as a standing ovation for trudeau. In fact, they were on their feet and walking out on him in protest of his dictoral stance of Canadians.

But you can watch for yourself the respect his style of oppression garners from Europe. You can also see the narcissistic descriptions where he skews the narrative and heaps all the credit on himself, implying he is an elder statesmen amongst those attending. Someone who thinks only his measures and solutions are the way to prosperity and unity. The internet is full of instances where he is called out by prominent people for being a dictator, but it never shows up on the news here. Does it? Now ask,yourselves why.


----------



## IKnowNothing (5 Dec 2022)

Fishbone Jones said:


> Canadians have a skewed, pablum fed view of Canadian politics. Very few watch anything that resembles foreign news or what goes on outside our borders. They rely on legacy MSM to educate and explain things to them. They see nothing to contradict these views. So they believe them. When legacy media says he's making great decisions and looking after Canada. Well, that's not how the EU sees him. These are people that have seen what dictators look like and are capable of. Not enough Canadians know what the world really thinks. And he hasn't even passed his internet censorship bill. There will be less knowledge allowed to Canadians.
> 
> This is not the first time he's been called out. An earlier instance had our legacy media describing the audience on their feet as a standing ovation for trudeau. In fact, they were on their feet and walking out on him in protest of his dictoral stance of Canadians.
> 
> But you can watch for yourself the respect his style of oppression garners from Europe. You can also see the narcissistic descriptions where he skews the narrative and heaps all the credit on himself, implying he is an elder statesmen amongst those attending. Someone who thinks only his measures and solutions are the way to prosperity and unity. The internet is full of instances where he is called out by prominent people for being a dictator, but it never shows up on the news here. Does it? Now ask,yourselves why.


This interaction was widely reported in the Canadian media when it happened in March.  That reporting also came with context and factual reporting of the EU members backgrounds, so most reasonable Canadians were able to accurately infer that those voices were not in any representative of the "how the EU (in aggregate) sees him"

There's plenty of reason's to dislike Trudeau. No need to ignorantly (or dishonestly) misrepresent the opinions of Europe's Randy Hilliers to be more than they are.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Dec 2022)

Navy_Pete said:


> Some people will be parasitic wastes on any kind of social safety net, but lot of working poor/borderline folks that needed the lifeline.



Sidebar-wise:

Once upon a time I was hired to help a researcher look at 'welfare', and how long people tended to stay on social assistance.

Despite claims to the opposite, more than 90+% of clients accessed social assistance for less than 18 months. It was actually operating as intended: as a social safety net.

There was a very small % that you could call 'generational' welfare recipients.

Also, counter-intuitively, most welfare recipients were identified as single men under 35 years of age. A good reflection of the 'boom and bust' cycles of a natural resource focused Canadian economy.


----------



## Navy_Pete (5 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Sidebar-wise:
> 
> Once upon a time I was hired to help a researcher look at 'welfare', and how long people tended to stay on social assistance.
> 
> ...


For sure, I think that was consistent with what they found in the Ontario basic income pilot program before it was shut down early, and that most people used it to try and go back on re-training, or were at least healthier because they weren't worried about where money was coming from to pay the bills (so less trips to ERs because they also usually had no family doctor).

If I hadn't been living at home at the time I would have been on welfare before I joined after getting laid off with zero notice when one of the US tarriffs on softwood kicked in. I think most of the marginal general labour jobs in factories and elsewhere is typically young males in that sub 35 age range. And it's not that people didn't want to do something different, but when you need to work 60 hours a week to pay your bills, can be a challenge to get out of that. Especially for folks that made bad decisions when they were younger (like dropping out of school or getting a criminal record) where it really limits your options to move forward.

Combine that with the gig economy where you can work a lot but never qualify for unemployment for when things take a downturn, and the real inflation massively outpacing wages and can get pretty bleak.

Aside from just supporting fellow human beings, I think the social safety network probably reduces all kinds of expenses elsewhere; emergency healthcare, criminial justice etc are all aggravate by poverty and that costs huge amounts already, so suspect on just basic financial grounds it has a lot of secondary/tertiary benefits that are hard to directly link to, but intuitively make sense.


----------



## mariomike (13 Dec 2022)

Saw this in the news,
Contest was 1st under Pierre Poilievre's Conservative leadership​


			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/byelection-mississauga-lakeshore-sousa-chhinzer-1.6682803
		




> By Tuesday morning, with 233 of 234 polls reporting, Sousa had secured 51.2 per cent of the vote. His Conservative opponent, Ron Chhinzer, came away with 37.3 per cent, and the NDP's candidate, Julia Kole, secured 4.9 per cent of the vote. The Green Party was not far behind the NDP with 3.2 per cent, while the People's Party of Canada earned the support of 1.2 per cent of votes cast.


----------



## Remius (13 Dec 2022)

Results so far here…






						Election Night Results - Electoral Districts
					

Election results by electoral district, for federal elections in Canada.




					enr.elections.ca


----------



## ArmyRick (13 Dec 2022)

Winning a by-election in a Liberal strong hold is nothing to lose sleep over.


----------



## Remius (13 Dec 2022)

It’s pretty much a nothing burger for now.  The CPC downplayed it a bit and PP was nowhere to be seen. 

Losing it by a worse margin than your predecessors though is probably going to illicite some reaction behind the scenes. 

I am still of the opinion that PP is going to try and win a general election without Ontario.


----------



## ArmyRick (13 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s pretty much a nothing burger for now.  The CPC downplayed it a bit and PP was nowhere to be seen.
> 
> Losing it by a worse margin than your predecessors though is probably going to illicite some reaction behind the scenes.
> 
> I am still of the opinion that PP is going to try and win a general election without Ontario.


I actually believe in the next election, the results for Ontario will stay more or less the same. 
The Liberal ridings will stay Liberal because Harper was bad.
The Conservative ridings will stay Conservatives 'cause they ain't no stinkin' commy loving Liberals (I am in one of those ridings)
There may be a few grey area ridings that could go either way. 

For now, I support the Conservatives (I have voted Con, NDP, Green and on several occasions Independents). However, IF they form government and blow it hard, I will drop them faster than grade 10 french class. I did it before. Harper lost me when I saw what the new veterans act did to my friends coming back from Afghanistan. 

I really wish people in this country would stop with the sports team nonsense when it comes to politics. Vote every election as though your part of a hiring board and 36 million investors depend on you to make the right choice. Not the popular choice, the right choice. Not the "we always vote.." choice but the right choice. Not vote "strategically" but vote for what is right. Not vote out of fear the other person might win but vote for what is right. 

One thing that would get on my nerves is if next election PP wins more so by people being fed up with Trudeau than having faith in PP (I am a PP supporter as you all know). 

I feel a lot of this country think and act as people who have grown up and lived in "fortress North America" in other words they are oblivious to the realities of how most of the world and its politics works (and the results)


----------



## IKnowNothing (13 Dec 2022)

ArmyRick said:


> I actually believe in the next election, the results for Ontario will stay more or less the same.
> The Liberal ridings will stay Liberal because Harper was bad.
> The Conservative ridings will stay Conservatives 'cause they ain't no stinkin' commy loving Liberals *(I am in one of those ridings)*
> There may be a few grey area ridings that could go either way.


I doubt that the Liberals are going to find another Ovid Jackson, and Ruff would have to have make a major major and (out of character) oopsie to lose the seat.

It's unfortunate that Ruff and Nater are being sidelined.  If the CPC ran a slate of similar candidates and adopted their tone and style they'd have a majority.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Dec 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> I doubt that the Liberals are going to find another Ovid Jackson, and Ruff would have to have make a major major and (out of character) oopsie to lose the seat.
> 
> It's unfortunate that Ruff and Nater are being sidelined.  If the CPC ran a slate of similar candidates and adopted their tone and style they'd have a majority.


What indications are there that either are being sidelined? Honest question.


----------



## IKnowNothing (13 Dec 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> What indications are there that either are being sidelined? Honest question.


Honest answer, I'm probably reading to much into them being omitted from  80 of 121 sitting MP's being named to shadow cabinet + lack of committee roles, combined with where they stood on the leadership/ some other things.


----------



## ArmyRick (13 Dec 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> I doubt that the Liberals are going to find another Ovid Jackson, and Ruff would have to have make a major major and (out of character) oopsie to lose the seat.
> 
> It's unfortunate that Ruff and Nater are being sidelined.  If the CPC ran a slate of similar candidates and adopted their tone and style they'd have a majority.


I know Alex personally (Former CO 2RCR).. Before we heap more on his plate, remember he is an MP and a single father, things are busy for him.


----------



## Good2Golf (13 Dec 2022)

IKnowNothing said:


> Honest answer, I'm probably reading to much into them being omitted from  80 of 121 sitting MP's being named to shadow cabinet + lack of committee roles, combined with where they stood on the leadership/ some other things.


It could be because they’re trusted and depended upon for close support to PP himself, vs running around shadowing things.  Ruff actually sits/sat on a number of Committees (AFG-past, National Security and Intelligence- current), was past Deputy Party Whip, currently member of CANUS Inter-Parliamentary Group and the Can-NATO Parliamentary Association.

I’d take that over Shadow Cabinet Minister for Canadian Heritage and Safe Sport in Canada…


----------



## ArmyRick (13 Dec 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> It could be because they’re trusted and depended upon for close support to PP himself, vs running around shadowing things.  Ruff actually sits/sat on a number of Committees (AFG-past, National Security and Intelligence- current), was past Deputy Party Whip, currently member of CANUS Inter-Parliamentary Group and the Can-NATO Parliamentary Association.
> 
> I’d take that over Shadow Cabinet Minister for Canadian Heritage and Safe Sport in Canada…


And I keep Alex busy everytime he drops by my farm to pick up his meat package (Picking up a newborn calf, walking a bottle calf, showing him hot the sheep fencing works)....

In all seriousness, he does some good work


----------



## IKnowNothing (13 Dec 2022)

Good2Golf said:


> It could be because they’re trusted and depended upon for close support to PP himself, vs running around shadowing things.  Ruff actually sits/sat on a number of Committees (AFG-past, National Security and Intelligence- current), was past Deputy Party Whip, currently member of CANUS Inter-Parliamentary Group and the Can-NATO Parliamentary Association.
> 
> I’d take that over Shadow Cabinet Minister for Canadian Heritage and Safe Sport in Canada…


Like I said, I'm probably reading too much into stuff  but given Alex's qualifications and ability as a leader he should be a rising star with a couple very clear portfolio's where the country would benefit greatly from his experience. 

Hopefully Rick is right and it's moreso by choice,  but my impression is that there's more at play and he's not on the "inside" in this caucus.
@ArmyRick - can't say I know him personally, but I we've been back and forth.  Has my support until he loses it by his own action.


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Dec 2022)

I think both Alex Ruff (who is, also, an old friend) and Michelle Rempel-Garner were flagged by Team Poilievre as being too close to Erin O'Toole.


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s pretty much a nothing burger for now.  The CPC downplayed it a bit and PP was nowhere to be seen.
> 
> Losing it by a worse margin than your predecessors though is probably going to illicite some reaction behind the scenes.
> 
> I am still of the opinion that _*PP is going to try and win a general election without Ontario.*_


_I suspect_ that there are a number on people on Team Poilievre who believe that can be done ... _I also suspect_ that they all got bare passes on the one compulsory Stats course when they took their PoliSci degrees at Carleton.


----------



## RangerRay (13 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> It’s pretty much a nothing burger for now.  The CPC downplayed it a bit and PP was nowhere to be seen.
> 
> Losing it by a worse margin than your predecessors though is probably going to illicite some reaction behind the scenes.
> 
> I am still of the opinion that PP is going to try and win a general election without Ontario.


Yup. From what I hear, it’s a solid Liberal riding and PP didn’t campaign there once.


----------



## Remius (13 Dec 2022)

RangerRay said:


> Yup. From what I hear, it’s a solid Liberal riding and PP didn’t campaign there once.


Solid is a bit deceiving.  

1979 to 1993.   Conservative
1993 to 2011.  Liberal
2011 to 2015.  Conservative (Liberals finished 3rd)
2015 to present Liberal.

Most contests have been tight margins.  If there is a GTA riding that could be flipped it’s that one. 

But bi elections are what they are.  If there was a mood for change it didn’t manifest itself this time.  Plus add low voter turn out and holiday season.  But the margin of the loss is probably the only stand out thing that might warrant some looking at by the party war rooms.


----------



## brihard (13 Dec 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> _I suspect_ that there are a number on people on Team Poilievre who believe that can be done ... _I also suspect_ that they all got bare passes on the one compulsory Stats course when they took their PoliSci degrees at Carleton.



They only have to do research methods if they take the Honours program.


----------



## Edward Campbell (13 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> They only have to do research methods if they take the Honours program.


You, dear gods, it gets worse every year.


----------



## brihard (13 Dec 2022)

Edward Campbell said:


> You, dear gods, it gets worse every year.


 Carleton, where the K stands for Quality.


----------



## ArmyRick (13 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Carleton, where the K stands for Quality.


Ummm, Quality is spelt with a Q not a K. Everyone at Karleton Universy knows it.


----------



## QV (13 Dec 2022)

Chinese influence in Canadian elections

_A February 2020 Privy Council Office national security memo documented China's alleged "*subtle but effective* foreign interference networks" that targeted the 2019 federal contest, said MP Michael Cooper._

By "subtle but effective" I take that to mean they achieved outcomes they were seeking. Should we start an office pool on which party the MPs belonged to who "*knowingly cooperated with the clandestine interference schemes*"... ?


----------



## Eaglelord17 (14 Dec 2022)

The part I wonder is if the PPC will split the vote again or if the PPC voters have decided that they would rather a Conservative government over a Liberal government. In several ridings their existence was the difference between a Conservative MP and a Liberal one.


----------



## Remius (14 Dec 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> The part I wonder is if the PPC will split the vote again or if the PPC voters have decided that they would rather a Conservative government over a Liberal government. In several ridings their existence was the difference between a Conservative MP and a Liberal one.


My take is that PP was courting that vote during his leadership run.  But he’s become quiet on that front now that he’s leader.  Time will tell but bet that Maxime Bernier will be around to remind his supporters of that fact.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Dec 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> The part I wonder is if the PPC will split the vote again or if the PPC voters have decided that they would rather a Conservative government over a Liberal government. In several ridings their existence was the difference between a Conservative MP and a Liberal one.



Playing the what if card, if we assume all the PPC votes would have gone to the Cons, how much impact would that actually have had ?


----------



## brihard (14 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Playing the what if card, if we assume all the PPC votes would have gone to the Cons, how much impact would that actually have had ?


Approximately 13 seats I think? I crunched the numbers on exactly this a while ago… Can’t remember if 13 was my ‘every vote’ or my ‘2/3’ estimate. But even if all PPC votes went CPC, it would not have altered the Parliamentary balance of power.


----------



## Remius (14 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> Playing the what if card, if we assume all the PPC votes would have gone to the Cons, how much impact would that actually have had ?


In some ridings it may have played a part.  21 riding total last election.  But that is using the assumption those PPC voters would vote CPC.  That may not actually be the case though.


----------



## Halifax Tar (14 Dec 2022)

brihard said:


> Approximately 13 seats I think? I crunched the numbers on exactly this a while ago… Can’t remember if 13 was my ‘every vote’ or my ‘2/3’ estimate. But even if all PPC votes went CPC, it would not have altered the Parliamentary balance of power.



Ya I didn't think so.  I know a lot has been said about that vote split, but I thought it was actually pretty hollow. 



Remius said:


> In some ridings it may have played a part.  21 riding total last election.  But that is using the assumption those PPC voters would vote CPC.  That may not actually be the case though.



Absolutely, just playing the game.  As people tend to think all PPC votes came from the Cons.


----------



## Eaglelord17 (14 Dec 2022)

I wouldn’t say all votes would go conservative just the majority of the PPC votes. 

I know in my riding it would have been the difference between a Conservative MP over a Liberal one.


----------



## Remius (14 Dec 2022)

Eaglelord17 said:


> I wouldn’t say all votes would go conservative just the majority of the PPC votes.
> 
> I know in my riding it would have been the difference between a Conservative MP over a Liberal one.


Éric Grenier wrote a good analysis here just before the last election. 









						Who is voting for the PPC — and will they cost the Conservatives a win?
					

The People's Party is on the rise, but it's unclear what its impact will be




					www.thewrit.ca


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> In some ridings it may have played a part.  21 riding total last election.  But that is using the assumption those PPC voters would vote CPC.  That may not actually be the case though.


I have friends that went from NPD to PPC, and one that went Liberal to PPC.  So I don't think its as cut and dry.


----------



## QV (14 Dec 2022)

QV said:


> Chinese influence in Canadian elections
> 
> _A February 2020 Privy Council Office national security memo documented China's alleged "*subtle but effective* foreign interference networks" that targeted the 2019 federal contest, said MP Michael Cooper._
> 
> By "subtle but effective" I take that to mean they achieved outcomes they were seeking. Should we start an office pool on which party the MPs belonged to who "*knowingly cooperated with the clandestine interference schemes*"... ?



Curious how fast an election will be called to attempt to minimize the impact of these details should they escape.


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Dec 2022)

QV said:


> Curious how fast an election will be called to attempt to minimize the impact of these details should they escape.


This is nothing burger to the Canadian electorate.  Not one vote would change even if the names are released. 

Majority of Canadians believe Covid came from a bat that flew through a pangolin into a dog or an zebra or elephant....so China is where we get cheap stuff.....so no worries.  American bad....

I have never seen a national security issue ever matter much in election.  Good looking hair, or he has a mean eyes, or  I don't like his smile etc. those are things that matter.  Plus what am I getting or what is the government give way so I can feel better about myself?  Those are the issues.


----------



## Remius (14 Dec 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> This is nothing burger to the Canadian electorate.  Not one vote would change even if the names are released.
> 
> Majority of Canadians believe Covid came from a bat that flew through a pangolin into a dog or an zebra or elephant....so China is where we get cheap stuff.....so no worries.  American bad....
> 
> I have never seen a national security issue ever matter much in election.  Good looking hair, or he has a mean eyes, or  I don't like his smile etc. those are things that matter.  Plus what am I getting or what is the government give way so I can feel better about myself?  Those are the issues.


The CPC had a whole campaign message about hair.  I hope they don’t go back to that again,


----------



## Spencer100 (14 Dec 2022)

Remius said:


> The CPC had a whole campaign message about hair.  I hope they don’t go back to that again,


And the Liberals about Harper's "mean" eyes.

That was my point.....its all BS


----------



## QV (14 Dec 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> This is nothing burger to the Canadian electorate.  Not one vote would change even if the names are released.
> 
> Majority of Canadians believe Covid came from a bat that flew through a pangolin into a dog or an zebra or elephant....so China is where we get cheap stuff.....so no worries.  American bad....
> 
> I have never seen a national security issue ever matter much in election.  Good looking hair, or he has a mean eyes, or  I don't like his smile etc. those are things that matter.  Plus what am I getting or what is the government give way so I can feel better about myself?  Those are the issues.


Too true.


----------



## Kirkhill (14 Dec 2022)

Spencer100 said:


> I have friends that went from NPD to PPC, and one that went Liberal to PPC.  So I don't think its as cut and dry.



I am aware of more than one Right Wing NDPer.  Very strong Union members and equally strong Nationalists - from exactly the same motives.


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## daftandbarmy (18 Dec 2022)

Another own goal... blatant, preventable, inevitable:

Rex Murphy: Plumbing the depths of a Liberal cabinet minister's 'high standards'​ 
Did Trade Minister Mary Ng forget she was a personal friend of the media adviser given contracts by her ministry?


How then, Minister Ng, did this slip-of-the-mind happen? Was there a momentary, unfortunate mental “burp” when you forgot Amanda Alvaro was your friend, forgot she was also a Pomp and Circumstance co-founder and consultant, and a regular presence on tedious CBC panels where she was most dutiful in exhuming the Liberal talking points of the day? Is that how her firm came to be awarded a contract just under $17,000 by your ministry in the spring of 2020?









						Rex Murphy: Plumbing the depths of a Liberal cabinet minister's 'high standards'
					

Did Trade Minister Mary Ng forget she was a personal friend of the media adviser given contracts by her ministry?




					nationalpost.com


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## Halifax Tar (18 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Another own goal... blatant, preventable, inevitable:
> 
> Rex Murphy: Plumbing the depths of a Liberal cabinet minister's 'high standards'​
> Did Trade Minister Mary Ng forget she was a personal friend of the media adviser given contracts by her ministry?
> ...



It doesn't matter.  As we continually here from their supporters on this website, this current government is the only option.


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## Good2Golf (18 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It doesn't matter.  As we continually here from their supporters on this website, this current government is the only option.


Ha ha…only 5-figures of graft.  Amateur!  Ng must be on OJT.  She’ll have to up her game to be a senior cabinet member.


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## Humphrey Bogart (18 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It doesn't matter.  As we continually here from their supporters on this website, this current government is the only option.


The opposition are just "too extreme" 🤣

Meanwhile, we're doing REAL GOOOOD 🤣.  Look at that corruption index trendline, solid downward trend!



Canadians like to think we are like the Germans and Scandinavians, the reality is we are trending closer to the Greeks, Italians and Iberians:


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## FSTO (18 Dec 2022)

daftandbarmy said:


> Another own goal... blatant, preventable, inevitable:
> 
> Rex Murphy: Plumbing the depths of a Liberal cabinet minister's 'high standards'​
> Did Trade Minister Mary Ng forget she was a personal friend of the media adviser given contracts by her ministry?
> ...


Matt Gurney and Jenn Gerson are must listen to on the government of the day. 








						Dispatch from the Front Lines: Of course Canada's broken
					

Comfortably broken is still broken, folks.




					theline.substack.com
				




This is a great line regarding Eng and Alvaro and the politicos in general. 

“What we are actually more annoyed by is what those contracts were for. Media training. Why in the hell does anybody in this government need _more_ media training? Honestly, at this point the surfeit of media training has reduced the cabinet to a line of wooden nutcrackers. We wouldn't be terribly shocked if Alvaro was getting well paid to perform ice-pick lobotomies or some sort of brain washing that fully replaces independent thought with approved LPC talking points ”


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## dimsum (18 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It doesn't matter.  As we continually here from their supporters on this website, this current government is the only option.


I've said it before that I've been holding my nose in the past few elections.  

If the CPC has any hope of winning, they need to get back to the middle somehow.  Poilievre doesn't seem to trend that way - and I don't think the party is either given O'Toole's ousting - and I don't think there are enough CPC and farther-right supporters to give them the lead.

I'm fine with the fiscal conservative aspect of their party, not the social conservative aspect.  But, the current CPC knows that they need that SoCon vote, so I don't see them turning back.


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## FSTO (18 Dec 2022)

dimsum said:


> I'm fine with the fiscal conservative aspect of their party, not the social conservative aspect. But, the current CPC knows that they need that SoCon vote, so I don't see them turning back.


Is the CPC advocating banning abortions? Stopping immigration? Banning gay marriage? What LPC iterations of the “Hands Maid Tale” are you thinking of?


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## Halifax Tar (18 Dec 2022)

FSTO said:


> Is the CPC advocating banning abortions? Stopping immigration? Banning gay marriage? What LPC iterations of the “Hands Maid Tale” are you thinking of?



The whole "fear of conservatives" thing is so 2015.  And at this point it's a red herring.  

Look into PP.  Jesus, his father is a member of the LGBTQ+ community and he's married to an immigrant woman of the Latin community.  

Why can't people just admit they are ok with the corrupt and broken politics of the current Gov ? Just be honest.


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## Quirky (18 Dec 2022)

Liberal Logic: PP/CPC don't have any ideas of their own to fix the problems our dear leader created, so we will keep voting for dear leader. 

Love it.


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## RangerRay (18 Dec 2022)

Halifax Tar said:


> It doesn't matter.  As we continually here from their supporters on this website, this current government is the only option.


As I said in another thread:



RangerRay said:


> It doesn’t matter what (you or) I think of which party or leader. As long as the suburbs think the CPC is full of cranks and hicks, they will vote for incompetence and corruption.


Perception beats reality every time.


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## Halifax Tar (18 Dec 2022)

RangerRay said:


> As I said in another thread:
> 
> 
> Perception beats reality every time.



You'll get no argument from me.  

The Liberals have been brilliant in painting their main opposition in one shade and the getting away with being, probably the most, terribly corrupt and ineffective government we will see in our lifetime.

As we've seen, Canadians will easily give into unreasonable and unsubstantiated fear.


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## Brad Sallows (18 Dec 2022)

I've explained it a few times here; what the heck, once more.

The socon fraction of the CPC is a minority.  There aren't enough socon-leaning ridings in Canada to elect enough socon CPC members to effect the kind of social change that some people here keep wringing their hands over.  It is mathematically improbable that any elected CPC majority would also contain a socon majority (as in, majority of the entire House, not merely the party's share).  Watching private members' bills go down to defeat may antagonize pundits who think there is a politics which dare not speak its name, but the end state is still status quo.

I don't know whether the current CPC iteration contains people in it with the fiscal competence of Harper/Flaherty, but there's no point complaining about inflation, interest rates, rust-out, counterproductive market-meddling economic and environmental policies, etc, unless you're willing to vote the party least likely to aggravate all those things.


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## dimsum (18 Dec 2022)

FSTO said:


> Is the CPC advocating banning abortions? Stopping immigration? Banning gay marriage? What LPC iterations of the “Hands Maid Tale” are you thinking of?


None.  The CPC knows that any of the above would pretty much doom it as a party.

The reason I believe what I said is when O'Toole (a moderate) got turfed, they didn't pick another moderate.

Or if Poilievre is a moderate, he isn't really showing it.


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## Good2Golf (18 Dec 2022)

Brad Sallows said:


> The socon fraction of the CPC is a minority. There aren't enough socon-leaning ridings in Canada to elect enough socon CPC members to effect the kind of social change that some people here keep wringing their hands over. It is mathematically improbable that any elected CPC majority would also contain a socon majority (as in, majority of the entire House, not merely the party's share). Watching private members' bills go down to defeat may antagonize pundits who think there is a politics which dare not speak its name, but the end state is still status quo.



While entirely true, it matters not a whit.  The CPC does not have the collective maturity to appreciate that it matters not.


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## Good2Golf (18 Dec 2022)

FSTO said:


> Is the CPC advocating banning abortions? Stopping immigration? Banning gay marriage? What LPC iterations of the “Hands Maid Tale” are you thinking of?


The CPC need only state that it won’t stop any of its MP’s from putting forward legislation to restrict abortions in any way.

That the LPC is led by a Roman Catholic who has clearly separated his personal, religious-based views of the issue, yet has established a clear pan-party position could be a lesson to the CPC, but won’t be.


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## Brad Sallows (18 Dec 2022)

The same thing is happening in Canada as the US.  Progressives are moving left a lot faster than conservatives.  Centrists hoping that conservatives are going to catch up by leaps and spurts to become centrists are on a fool's errand.  The CPC isn't going to become the Centrist Party of Canada to suit centrists.  But it might become the fiscally responsible party of Canada.  Some will argue the LPC is capable of that, but the federal NDP is not and the LPC is pulled by the NDP.

To me, everything else other than finances is what you do after you secure your finances, and by all means argue far and wide about what those secure finances should be put to.  So that's my "single issue".  Hoping the situation is somehow going to sort out while supporting or even merely not opposing parties with ideologically rigid anti-market policies is not a strategy.


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## RangerRay (18 Dec 2022)

I haven’t heard the socon boogeyman being dredged up recently. It’s more the populist/nationalist/Trumpist/conspiracy theorist bogeyman I hear about. Tories, federal and provincial, don’t help the cause when they snuggle up to those elements. Despite their own press releases, that kind of stuff turns off normie voters in the suburbs.  It might go well in Fort Bumfuck, SK where everyone is reading Facebook posts Uncle Bob is sharing from EaglePatriotMAGAnews.ru, but not in the 905. 

I remain convinced that had Erin O’Toole was given a second chance, he could win the next election (although his sucking and blowing during the Convoy didn’t help).  Harper was given a second chance after his first defeat and enough voters saw that he wasn’t what the Liberal press releases said he was. Constantly changing leaders isn’t helping making Canadians comfortable with them either.


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## dimsum (18 Dec 2022)

RangerRay said:


> I haven’t heard the socon boogeyman being dredged up recently. It’s more the populist/nationalist/Trumpist/conspiracy theorist bogeyman I hear about. Tories, federal and provincial, don’t help the cause when they snuggle up to those elements. Despite their own press releases, that kind of stuff turns off normie voters in the suburbs.


You said it better than I did.


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## CBH99 (Monday at 04:26)

dimsum said:


> None.  The CPC knows that any of the above would pretty much doom it as a party.
> 
> The reason I believe what I said is when O'Toole (a moderate) got turfed, they didn't pick another moderate.
> 
> Or if Poilievre is a moderate, he isn't really showing it.


I've always enjoyed reading your posts & appreciate your opinions.

I know out east, Poilievre is definitely being taken as 'not a moderate' - as you put it.


My question is why?  

Why is he not coming across like a fairly moderate person?

(To me, he's come across as pretty moderate, with common sense solutions to silly problems that shouldn't exist in the first place. And he asks a lot of the same questions that I have of the current government.

But how he's coming across to a lot of people out west is apparently different than how he's coming across to people out east.  

Genuinely curious is all.  (Open question btw...)


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## dimsum (Monday at 07:28)

CBH99 said:


> I've always enjoyed reading your posts & appreciate your opinions.
> 
> I know out east, Poilievre is definitely being taken as 'not a moderate' - as you put it.
> 
> ...


I don't know if it's a "east v west" party thing.  

But, I agree with the article below.  









						Pierre Poilievre, political arsonist
					

Pierre Poilievre has been starting political fires all across the country over the last year, columnist Max Fawcett writes.




					www.nationalobserver.com


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## FSTO (Monday at 08:46)

dimsum said:


> I don't know if it's a "east v west" party thing.
> 
> But, I agree with the article below.
> 
> ...


Max Fawcett is the Brian Lilley of the centre left.


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## Halifax Tar (Monday at 09:26)

dimsum said:


> I don't know if it's a "east v west" party thing.
> 
> But, I agree with the article below.
> 
> ...



It's a bit of a head scratcher.  So it's not the actions/inactions of the sitting government that has caused the anger it's PP. 

That's a bit of a stretch for me.  Biases, of course, admitted.


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## Good2Golf (Monday at 10:02)

dimsum said:


> I don't know if it's a "east v west" party thing.
> 
> But, I agree with the article below.
> 
> ...


Spin, spin, spin.

Throwing some critical thought at Fawcett’s parroting of the Trudeupian take on the infamous pre-Christmas Angus Reid poll, one could assess how bad, or not at all, Poilièvre truly is.

Let’s look at Fawcett’s view of PP as stated in his article:



> Canadians seem to be taking notice. The most recent Angus Reid Institute poll showed more than half of Canadians (54 per cent) have a negative view of Poilievre, while only one-in-three like what he’s offering. “These levels of unfavourable sentiment are much higher than those of previous leaders Andrew Scheer, Erin O’Toole, and Stephen Harper at the beginning of their own leadership ventures.”



Do Canadians hold such a disparate view of Poilièvre relative to Trudeau?  From Fawcett’s words, one would think so.

As critical thinkers, why don’t we take a look at the data in the poll that Fawcett quotes…



‘Over half’ have an unfavorable view of Poilièvre.
38% v.unfav + 15% unfav = 53% overall unfav.  Okay, that math checks out (well, Fawcett can’t add, it’s 53% not 54%, but he’s not a mathematician I suppose; I’m willing to cut him some slack to see where he’s going with things).

Just taking a quick moment to check out Trudeau’s numbers…
36% v.unfav + 17% unfav = 53% overall unfav.
Hmmm 🤔 …that’s strange, I must have missed the sentence in Fawcett’s article where he noted that Trudeau had the exact same “more than half of Canadians view him unfavorably” as Poilièvre…53%.  Funny that.  Let’s keep thinking critically…

Favourable.  …”only one-in-three like what [Poilièvre] is offering.”  17% + 16% = 33%.   Okay, I’ll buy that.

Quick check at Trudeau’s numbers…33% + 9% = 42%.  Oh, so only slightly more than four-in-ten people like what Trudeau’s doing?  Rewording Poilièvre’s approval to slightly more than three-in-ten Canadians.  That’s only one more per ten people for Trudeau than Poilièvre….or just 10% more popular (9% to be precise) than Poilièvre.

Heck, it appears by the numbers that more people disapprove of Trudeau, than approve.  I must have also missed that part of Fawcett’s article as well.

So in unbiased language, Poilièvre and Trudeau have identical unfavourable views by Canadians (53%).  Both are also viewed more unfavourably by Canadians than favourably.

Check.

Where were we again?  Oh right, Poilièvre bad. I mean, not as bad as Harper…clearly, but still bad. 😉


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## Remius (Monday at 10:12)

Halifax Tar said:


> It's a bit of a head scratcher.  So it's not the actions/inactions of the sitting government that has caused the anger it's PP.
> 
> That's a bit of a stretch for me.  Biases, of course, admitted.


Fareed Zacharia had an interesting OP Ed this weekend on the decline of populism across the globe.  It may be that PP’s entry late in the game is what is driving it.






						2023 could be the year that exposes populism for the sham that it is — Fareed Zakaria
					

It’s hard not to be fixated on the drama unfolding in the House of Representatives, where the Republican Party is having a nervous breakdown in full public view. This crisis is entirely of the party’s own making. For decades it has whipped its base into a righteous fury by promising radical policies




					fareedzakaria.com
				




(Could be behind a paywall, apologies)

While looking for a few other articles on that I came across one that claims that the pandemic sowed deep distrust in populism and populist ideas.  It does specify though that it did not reinforce liberal democracy (in fact it also showed distrust in it)









						Support for populist politics 'collapsed' during the pandemic – global report
					

Support for populist parties and politicians, and agreement with populist sentiment, has diminished during the pandemic, according to a “mega-dataset” taking in attitudes of over half a million people across 109 countries since 2020.




					www.cam.ac.uk
				




It could be that PP’s embrace of a populist approach is what is the issue.  It would explain why he hasn’t said a word on the convoy in some time and said nothing about anything regarding the inquiry into the EA.


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## IKnowNothing (Monday at 10:13)

Good2Golf said:


> So in unbiased language, Poilièvre and Trudeau have identical unfavourable views by Canadians (53%).  Both are also viewed more unfavourably by Canadians than favourably.


Which is fitting, because they're opposite sides of the same ambitious, vapid, political animal coin.


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## CBH99 (Monday at 10:31)

dimsum said:


> I don't know if it's a "east v west" party thing.
> 
> But, I agree with the article below.
> 
> ...


Given our options, I’d personally like to give Pierre a chance to do what he says he will do.  

Will he let us down in the end?  Maybe, maybe not.  But I’m hopeful.  

(Heck if it helps me to not see or hear Freeland ever again…)


Good article though, helped me view it from a different angle.  Cheers 🥂


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## Good2Golf (Monday at 10:34)

^ this, on all points, IMO.


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## Halifax Tar (Monday at 10:51)

Remius said:


> Fareed Zacharia had an interesting OP Ed this weekend on the decline of populism across the globe.  It may be that PP’s entry late in the game is what is driving it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think we have fully seen the damage that the pandemic did to our institutions.  And much of it was self inflicted by the institutions IMHO. 

The fact people blindly fell in behind big pharma and big government, so willingly, even after there are so many examples of them both being rotten to the core is shocking to me, and its shocking that it came from the left.  As they are traditionally the most skeptical of big government and big pharma (or any business), and rightly so.  The left used to be about asking questions, now it seems to be about blind obedience to the supreme overlords. 

As for populism, Canadians are too politically lazy for populism to gain traction here, en masse.


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## Remius (Monday at 11:02)

Halifax Tar said:


> As for populism, Canadians are too politically lazy for populism to gain traction here, en masse.


That, at least in part, should answer the question you were asking.


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## Halifax Tar (Monday at 11:07)

Remius said:


> That, at least in part, should answer the question you were asking.



You lost me, what question did I ask ? 

First day back and digging out, I may be missing something I said/asked...


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## ArmyRick (Monday at 11:09)

Boring is good. 

What we need is boring in Canada. We don't have it. We have panic, anxiety, division, hate, spite, fear, dread. And I can assure its NOT the work of PP. Try inserting Trudeau and his merry band of cronies as being responsible. 

Too many people overthink it and try to blah, blah, blah why PP is "just not the right fit".... FFS, wake up. My deceased cat could do a better job of running the government than Trudeau. Every time it people start looking more critically at PP, it makes me wonder if they are not closet Trudeau supporters. Trudeau is INCOMPETENT. Narcissistic and an egomaniac. Nothing logical about what he does. The worst of it though is when he does screw something up badly, he takes NO ownership and instead doubles down or deflects on the conservatives. 

If PP gets in and can slightly imrpove the economy (opening up O & G), reduce government nonsensical bills (gender pronouns, the 88th anti-hate bill I am sure is coming and censorship/control bills) and allow Canadians to go about their business. Knock it off with Carbon tax this and that (Everything he said the carbon tax would do, has not happened other than make Canadian poorer), things will get better. Ohhh and fire about 20-30% of federal government employees and kill the CBC. 

Basically if 80% or more Canadians can go to work, afford their bills (god forbid have some change left over for something fun), feed and shelter their families and basically be left alone, then the so called "populist movement" (AKA pissed off Canadians) will NOT happen. Talk of wetsren seperation will die down. People can go back to getting pissed off at their hockey team not making the play offs. 

Heres another one to consider (division amongst the Libs)


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## ArmyRick (Monday at 11:14)

And another one to consider. Again, a Liberal calling out the Trudeau dictatorship


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## Remius (Monday at 11:23)

Halifax Tar said:


> You lost me, what question did I ask ?
> 
> First day back and digging out, I may be missing something I said/asked...


Sorry, I misinterpreted your post about it being a head scratcher.  Only had one coffee.


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## Halifax Tar (Monday at 11:26)

Remius said:


> Sorry, I misinterpreted your post about it being a head scratcher.  Only had one coffee.



I feel ya... I'm knocking the cobwebs off too.


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## QV (Monday at 11:54)

Canada officially buying F-35 fighter jet for $19B to replace CF-18s
					

Defence Minister Anita Anand says Canada is officially buying the F-35 fighter jet to replace its aging CF-18s, ending the years-long search where it first began. Canada had announced plans to buy the F-35 back in 2010, before politics and government mismanagement scuttled that decision.




					www.ctvnews.ca
				




Is this not another stick to beat Trudeau with? I guess after 8 years of LPC dithering we now know the Harper Government was correct after all?


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## ArmyRick (Monday at 11:59)

QV said:


> Canada officially buying F-35 fighter jet for $19B to replace CF-18s
> 
> 
> Defence Minister Anita Anand says Canada is officially buying the F-35 fighter jet to replace its aging CF-18s, ending the years-long search where it first began. Canada had announced plans to buy the F-35 back in 2010, before politics and government mismanagement scuttled that decision.
> ...


He will be made out to be a hero out of this. "Trudeau buying new jets to deter Putin's aggression..." or something like that. and the average fence post (Canadians these days) will completely forget or ignore the fact Trudeau shut this purchase down.

Kind of like Chretein "No 'elicopters.." cancel the EH101 and then buy the Ch149 Comorant (An EH101)


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## Good2Golf (Monday at 18:15)

QV said:


> Canada officially buying F-35 fighter jet for $19B to replace CF-18s
> 
> 
> Defence Minister Anita Anand says Canada is officially buying the F-35 fighter jet to replace its aging CF-18s, ending the years-long search where it first began. Canada had announced plans to buy the F-35 back in 2010, before politics and government mismanagement scuttled that decision.
> ...


Harper didn’t have the insight, wisdom and courage to beef up the existing CF-18 fleet with a batch of broke Aussie jets ridden hard and put away wet, so that each Cf-18 pilot could have his/her/their name/call-sign painted onto two aircraft each…


----------

