# Pay Freeze



## Sh0rtbUs (17 Mar 2004)

My entire course hasnt been paid yet, and we‘re going on our 4th week (been several ‘pay days‘ past) and apparently the reason is some guys havent handed in their blood type. Im not trying to stir the pot here and get something going, Im patiently awaiting it to be sorted out, but when can the Army freeze ones pay over something such as this? Is this scenario common?

It‘s a pain, but when i DO get paid..its gonna be a nice wad of cash


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Mar 2004)

Never heard of it getting held up for that! Sounds like a bogus excuse. The two don‘t tie in. Mind, most of the people here can tell you that the Reserve pay system sucks. It‘s one of those things you live with in the Reserves. If you have a good pay clerk, you‘re all set. If they really don‘t care, you‘ll have to push it up top to the Colonel, through the chain. Most times it‘s some sort of glitch, either computer or personnel. (If your mother was to call her Member of Parliment, complaining her son wasn‘t getting paid, it may jog them into action). Just make sure that you check your pay statement when you get it and everything is correct, they have a habit of overpaying, a little at a time, then jerking it all back at once.


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## slickguy1986 (17 Mar 2004)

I tend to agree with recceguy, because I have been in over a year and for the first five months I did not say what my blood type was: I was still paid.

Shortbus, what likely is happening is you are going to be paid by cheque, my first few pay periods were by check which took a couple of weeks to filter down.  Have patience, if $$ doesn‘t start filtering down maybe you will have to send a memo up the Chain and through your course staff.

Make sure, you mention to your Section Cmdr you‘re having pay problems - maybe s/he can sort it out.


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## Sh0rtbUs (17 Mar 2004)

thanx for that. Im definatly checking my pay statements more carefully when i get them


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## Gayson (17 Mar 2004)

ShortBus, you recruit for Qyrang?

I am.

It took 4 months to get paid, due to paper work problems at ottawa or something.  

I believe the blood type is needed primarily for your dog tags, which should have no effect on your pay?


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## Spr.Earl (17 Mar 2004)

It‘s sound‘s like some one has not done the paper work in the pay office or your Unit‘s have not passed on your pay doc.‘s
The excuse of "no blood type" is crap!!

Have any of gone to the pay office?
Go and enquire,you are entitled to.
Bug them untill you get paid.


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## Phillman (17 Mar 2004)

I‘ve been in over a year and still don‘t know what my blood type is, and this has not affected my pay. If you are going to be getting cheques, then just be patient. On my first course I didnt see a penny for the first while then I seemed to be handed a cheque everytime someone on the course staff walked by.


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## Righty (17 Mar 2004)

I started on Feb 7.... Didn‘t get paid until Mar 15


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## GhostRecce (17 Mar 2004)

yeah i didnt know my blood type when i first got in and i still got paid. i‘d be a little upset at this mainly because some people need money for bills etc. i know i would


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## bossi (17 Mar 2004)

Grrr ... must ... control ... fist ... of ... death ...
(IMHO, the "blood type" excuse is either somebody incredibly stupid trying to make noises that sound like intelligent speech, or somebody incredibly stupid proving just that - the pay system and the medical records are NOT so closely intertwined that somebody‘s ELSE‘s missing blood type would interfere with your pay cheque ... grrr ...).

Once upon a time, recruit courses were invited by their NCO‘s to donate blood (at a nearby civilian blood clinic, not in the parking lot behind the armoury ...) - a civic-minded contribution to the local community, the local newspapers were normally quite happy to publish a photo of all the fresh new recruits lined up to serve their country albeit in a novel way, and a cheap way to find out everybody‘s blood type.  Anybody that didn‘t want to donate was NOT forced to do so, and everybody went home happy.

Having said all of the above, I‘ve heard horror stories of recruits waiting anywhere between one and four months for their first pay cheque (or direct deposit, which is more automatic once your banking details are in the system, but again ... "cut-off" dates are the modern day manifestation of the "gremlins" that plague computerised payrolls ...)
Hang in there.


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## Bulvyn (17 Mar 2004)

I think in part it‘s to see how you will react to not getting paid. To see if you are in it for the money or if you just want to learn. It‘s somewhat of a test just like everything else. Many of the horrifyingly stupid things that go on are tests. Don‘t get me wrong, they all arent.

I joined in Dec and didn‘t get paid until Feb. I heard through the grape vine that they were testing to see how recruits would act. As far as I know this is only done for reserves. I could be wrong however.

Everything I just mentioned is heresay and could quite possibly be a load of crap. I am only mentioning what I heard and what makes the most sense.


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## Sh0rtbUs (17 Mar 2004)

well..Im certainly not in it for the money...but it would be nice to pay my dad back his 200 bucks that he lent me for bus fare to get to the Armouries.

Im just gonna stick it out and wait... I‘ve got all the time in the world (unfortunatly, my disgruntled father doesnt)  Pte. Gayson, Im just a homely recruit for now.


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## chrisf (17 Mar 2004)

I got my first pay through means of an actual physical cheque... though it took some 3 months to get to me (Apparently, there was another person with the same last name and initials as myself in another unit in the area, and it went to her first).


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## Dara (18 Mar 2004)

What a load of crock.  Don‘t kill me, I am Air, but also a RMS Clk.  I don‘t think the pay system between the two elements, army and air are that different.  When we first load you in RPSR, which is the system we use to pay our mbrs, we need your SIN and Svc Number, once your validated, which usually takes a day, we can enter your information and get you in the system.  During the month there are due dates for when the the Class A sheets should be handed in.  Rule of thumb is if you hand in your sheets the first part of the month, you‘ll get paid end of the month.  There are specific cut off dates that we get from RPSR though, which my unit actually publishes in the Routine Orders. Once a month there is a cut off for Class B, if you miss that, you can be paid contingency, at least on the air side and still get paid on pay day right into your account.  I don‘t know what kind of bull their trying to give you, but blood type has nothing to do with it.  Plus, if there is a legitimate reason, like not getting paid for 4 months, you can ask for that contingency payment through your chain.


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## RCA (19 Mar 2004)

There was a time when it was well-known that the two things you didn‘t screw around was a sodliers‘ food and his pay. Times have changed. The give-a-**** factor seems to be a lot lower, and I don‘t give a **** is taking over.

Rumour control - no unit/crse would withhold mbrs pay to see their reaction, and if for some very strange reason its true, someone should swing for that gross violation. You parade, you have already earned and are entitlled. When first joining, you have to be entered with the proper details onthe RPSR system. If its near the middle or end of the month, you‘ll miss the cut off date but will make the next one (which within the next 15 days, not month ( so you will have to wait a month not two)like it use to be. The same applies for summer taskings, if it starts just after a cut off date, there will be almost a month‘s wait for the first pay - take note so there are no surprises.

 The blood type thing sounds like someone is too lazy and not looking after the troops. Your chain should be handling it and if not, they are not doing thier jobs either.


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## Danjanou (19 Mar 2004)

Ok let me get this straight. You and others on your course haven't been paid and some idiot has given you a pile of bovine excrement that it has to do with not having blood types? 

Please is there some Snr NCO or Officer involved with this course lurking on the forum who has seen this, and is now having a â Å“chatâ ? with whatever numpty pulled this stunt. 

As Dara, RCA and others have said there is a system, sure it is often slow and inefficient but it should work and this is one thing one does not screw around with. Start using the chain of command to have this dealt with, now. 

Ok war story time, so bear with me here. About 12-13 or so years ago there was a similar incident in a certain Toronto unit (no names no pack drill) They didn't have a Fin Clk, but the ad hoc system of admin clerks and what not somehow made it work. Then they got a shiny new Fin Officer trained and everything that transferred in. Well all of a sudden pay came to a screaching halt. 

Now that's not a big thing for those with civy careers hey it's just beer money in the mess. But a lot of Militia, students and the like, need that cheque, and can't afford any delays. Now this particular officer and I'm not dissing females, officers, or fin types here, had a bit of an attitude. To her Reserve duty was more of a social thing. She didn't need her monthly cheque and couldn't really comprehend the fact others did. 

Anyway, an unnamed CSM was advised that several of his troops hadn't been paid and in a couple of cases for some time, (1-2 months, said CSM had been away for a month on pers leave). He paid a social visit to the Finance Office and politely enquired as to what the problem was. 

When he got a rather dismissive answer from a rather insincere 2/Lt, he politely enquired as to why prior to her arrival there didn't seem to be any pay problems.

The Fin Officer in question pointed out that the adhoc system the semi-trained clerks had been using was not the correct manner to do things and she had put a stop to it. As to delays in the poor (literally) soldiers pay, there was nothing, she or for that matter the CSM could do about it.

The CSM, smiled, saluted and returned to his hovel, er office and made a couple of phone calls. Then he had a wee chat with his OC and the RSM, they in turn had a wee chat with the CO. The CO was advised that the CSM had checked into things and the said unpaid soldiers, there were about a dozen, including one just recently back from a peacekeeping tour, had an appointment at a local City of Toronto Welfare office the next morning. 

It appears that they may be eligible for welfare pending pay under Ontario law. Interviews had been set up and they would of course need to show up in uniform with supporting documentation. It also appeared that someone may have (not the CSM of course) called CITY TV and the Toronto Sun who in turn may have been interested in events happening the next morning. 

Well the upshot is that the CO had another wee chat with his Fin Officer, and mysteriously some cheques were sent via courier to the armouries rather quickly. 

Drastic measures perhaps, but effective. The moral of the story never mess with a soldier's pay and never play poker with a CSM.


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## Marauder (16 Sep 2004)

Just to share horror stories, I'm still waiting to get paid for my participation at Stalwart and the set up for the five days before it started, and my travel claim is still being held up. So I called today, learned that I should have been payed yesterday, but for some gremlin reason wasn't. I need the cash (apartment hunting, living at my fiancee's parents place for now), so they agree to see what can be done. I call back later in the afternoon and learn that I will get paid tomorrow. The kicker is, when I asked how much, they gave me a number way more than what I should be paid for Stalwart and the setup, which I told the clerk, and she told me "No problem, just bring in a check next week after we learn how much we have to deduct back from you" :grrr: And someone in Pet fucked up by not signing where they should have signed or some other lameass excuse on my travel claim, so God knows when I'll get that. On top of all this, they already fucked up my pay while I was in Pet back in June. I've always tried to play nice with the clerks, never hassled them or screamed at them when my pay got screwed up before, but this last little "incident" is really trying my damn nerves. The one time I have needed my pay to be non-FUBAR, and here we are. The worst part is, I probably can't even complain, because the accountability will just be shifted around endlessly. Chances are there's a synergistic fuck up between Pet, the local BOR, AND the clowns up at Brigade, but it still pisses me off non-the-less. Oh well, FIDO I suppose.


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## Raptor (16 Sep 2004)

Anthrax said:
			
		

> I think in part it's to see how you will react to not getting paid. To see if you are in it for the money or if you just want to learn. It's somewhat of a test just like everything else. Many of the horrifyingly stupid things that go on are tests. Don't get me wrong, they all arent.
> 
> I joined in Dec and didn't get paid until Feb. I heard through the grape vine that they were testing to see how recruits would act. As far as I know this is only done for reserves. I could be wrong however.
> 
> Everything I just mentioned is heresay and could quite possibly be a load of crap. I am only mentioning what I heard and what makes the most sense.



No...they dont "TEST" recruits by not paying them.  Not paying somebody for work done is illegal unless there is a valid reason.  Besides...course staff have enough to worry about and things to test recruits on instead of worrying about low moral due to lack of pay.  You have to realize that recruits (even though they are on course) need money to get essentials like boot polish, toiletries and haircuts...if they are not getting paid then the course staff have to deal with pay advances.

I was in the reserves for 6 years (a Mcpl for 4) and have tought on many recruit courses.  Not once did I ever hear (even rumours) about pay being with-held for any reason.  lol...if staff wanted to test recruit, all they need to do is give no opportunity for them to spend their pay.


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## Highland Laddie (17 Sep 2004)

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> My entire course hasnt been paid yet, and we're going on our 4th week (been several 'pay days' past) and apparently the reason is some guys havent handed in their blood type. Im not trying to stir the pot here and get something going, Im patiently awaiting it to be sorted out, but when can the Army freeze ones pay over something such as this? Is this scenario common?
> 
> It's a pain, but when i DO get paid..its gonna be a nice wad of cash



Well, many others have addressed this issue, but I have another potential solution. Talk to your chain of command about the situation, and if nothing improves have everyone on course who is experiencing a pay problem submit a redress of grievance. Those babies can be pushed ALL the way up the chain of command until the issue is resolved. Trust me, if multiple redress of grievances hit the Brigade Comd's or COS's desk, the "stuff" will seriously start to fly and the problem will be resolved ASAP (PBI may be able to share a COS perspective on this).

IMHO, someone is being lazy, or not doing their job, or both. If this happened to my troops, there would be a very quick "motivational" talk with the individual about sorting out the problem ASAP. Definitely bring this issue up with your Course WO & Course O (through your chain of command, of course). Platoon Commander's hour was specifically created to deal with issues like this.

As for the Reserve pay system, they have been talking about fixing it since I enrolled as a troop in the early 1990's......    Out.


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## ackland (17 Sep 2004)

Sh0rtbUs said:
			
		

> My entire course hasn't been paid yet, and we're going on our 4th week (been several 'pay days' past) and apparently the reason is some guys haventhaven'td in their blood type. Im notI'mrying to stir the pot here and get something going, Im patI'mntly awaiting it to be sorted out, but when can the Army freeze ones pay over something such as this? Is this scenario common?
> 
> It's a pain, but when i DO get paid..its gonna be a nice wad of cash



I am livng with someone from your unit and tells me all the time of the pay issues at your unit. trust me your last pay person was a lazy f***. She was experiencing all sorts of pay problems and has been in for 5 years. Now you have a new pay Sgtwho is supossedly much better, but the problems still are occuring.Follow the greivence path. that's my 2 cents.


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## Sh0rtbUs (17 Sep 2004)

I did eventuaklly get paid, but your right, the regiment has some major issues with pay. pretty much every pay day that comes around, I go to the bank to check how badly my pay has been messed up. its so common that I've gotten used to it, but what if I were reg force? Paying bills has got to be an issue if you cant rely on a pay cheque...


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## ackland (17 Sep 2004)

Problems on the scale that we see them in the reserve rarely occurs in the regs. They have a bit more dedicated staff then most reserve OR's. The way that The RPSR works for us is different. We don't get paid 24/7 unless on class B and even that contract needs to be started. The regs get paid from day one and only get the IPC's adjusted as they go up in rank nad TI. That is the simplified version.


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## jfladeroute (17 Sep 2004)

Highland Laddie said:
			
		

> As for the Reserve pay system, they have been talking about fixing it since I enrolled as a troop in the early 1990's......    Out.



It's facile to blame these issues on the RPSR; I am currently responsible for running a Garrison Orderly Room where, in the last three years, we have had exactly four problems with pay.

Of those, two were soldiers switching to long-term Class C contracts, and the error was caused by the Regular Force ASU. Both of the two involving the RPSR could be traced to an individual FTSO not returning paysheets for input by the cut-off date for pay. Not one problem was an actual RPSR issue. I would go so far as to state categorically that anyone blaming the "pay system" is merely attempting to cover up for the errors of individuals.

The "blood type" excuse is patently untrue - the only item of administration that is delayed by an unknown blood type is the ordering of dog tags. We have a lot of pers in that situation as the recruit medicals no longer cover routine blood typing - every one of them, however, is being paid.


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## Arctic Acorn (17 Sep 2004)

Gawd, who hasn't had at least one pay issue with the RPSR...

Let this be a lesson to the more junior members out there. Personal observation here, but I've seen instances where some poor sod is being jerked aorund by the system, and they're afraid to say anything because they feel that they're not entitled, or that they're being 'tested' in some way. 

Don't get me wrong, they're certainly a time and place for FIDO, but pay issues are _not_ one of them. Be aware that if you signed the paysheet, and you did the time, you are _entitled_ to pay for that day. Granted, there are mistakes sometimes, but that money is yours. If you can't get paid on the pay date, you can request a contingency payment. I'm not the only one who uses my reserve pay for more than just beer money. 

Anyway, please keep in mind that you have alternatives. Don't be scared to use the chain of command to make sure that you get what you're due...it's their job to make sure that you're 'fed and watered', as it were. They can't help you if you don't tell them. Remember troops, memos are your friend!


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## jfladeroute (17 Sep 2004)

Arctic Acorn said:
			
		

> Gawd, who hasn't had at least one pay issue with the RPSR...



You're missing the point. The issue is *not* with the RPSR itself; the program works very well in and of itself. There *are* pay issues, granted - but those are caused by individuals failing to do their jobs properly.  If the people do their jobs, soldiers get paid effectively and efficiently. Remember that there is a significant chain of events required before RPSR even comes into play - the member must sign in, the paysheets must make it to the authorizing officer, the authorizing officer must get it to the pay clerk, the pay clerk must enter the data, the authorizing officer must confirm the payment amounts... and then the RPSR can schedule the deposit. A break at any stage of that chain can cause problems. 

I've yet to see a pay problem that did not come down to a single individual not doing their job, although it's easier to blame the RPSR (understandably, because the alternative is to admit both fallibility and responsibility. People in general aren't very good at that). Blaming the program has become the 21st century equivalent of "the dog ate my homework".  :

I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your statements.  It is the right of every soldier to demand accountability from the system.


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## Arctic Acorn (17 Sep 2004)

Thats a fair cop, so... I'll amend by saying that most reservists have had pay problems at one point or another. 

However, please don't take offence by me (or anyone else) bemoaning "The RPSR" when they don't get their hard earned swag every two weeks.   For us non-administrative/finance types, the whole process is a black box. We insert a signed pay sheet into one end of the box, and money comes out the other side in regular, bi-monthly intervals. That box is called 'The RPSR" to us (which is spelled out right on the top of every pay statement). There is a significant chain that gets people paid, but my point here is that no one sees it, no one explains it to the members, and as such it doesn't exist in the perceptions of the non-admin troopies. When there's a problem, folks don't blame an individual, they blame the whole process. As I'm sure you're aware, most members never really see the work that goes into making sure that they are paid on time. No one cares when things are running smoothly, but watch the fur fly when someone _doesn't_ get paid! I know quite a few finance types, and it never fails to get their backs up when that happens. In fact, they get pretty bloody defensive about it. As an intelligence operator, I can totally relate to that. People can only remember our mistakes, but no one remembers/cares when we do things right. 


Here's an idea...In appreciation for all the hard work done by overworked unit admin staffs everywhere to ensure that common soldier gets their due, lets make Monday, 20 September "Hug A Clerk Day".   

Come on Lads/Lasses, who's with me!


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## jfladeroute (18 Sep 2004)

Arctic Acorn said:
			
		

> Thats a fair cop, so... I'll amend by saying that most reservists have had pay problems at one point or another.



Well, I can admit that I've had pay problems - but that was back in the bad old days of manual checks.

Your point about the mystery inherent in the RPSR is well taken, but that is exactly why it is important to never accept "it's an RPSR problem" as an explanation. It's also why it is important for admin types to follow the same basic after action review process that we do operationally. When my OR fails, I want to know where that failure occurred, and why. Accepting that there are pure mistakes, there are also systemic failures that can be addressed. For example, when that FTSO missed his deadline for the second time, we put in place a system whereby the pay clerk broadcast a "last call" message to all unit FTS the day prior to the deadline. He hasn't missed one since.

The bottom line is that one should never simply accept what has become an all-too common excuse. Shrugging and blaming the RPSR will do nothing to prevent the problem from recurring. Making people responsible for their actions, or lack thereof, will.



			
				Arctic Acorn said:
			
		

> Here's an idea...In appreciation for all the hard work done by overworked unit admin staffs everywhere to ensure that common soldier gets their due, lets make Monday, 20 September "Hug A Clerk Day".
> Come on Lads/Lasses, who's with me!



I'm not entirely sure my clerks would thank you for that.   :-\ Thankfully, we're stood down Monday, so I shan't have to risk my SHARP certification.


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## Acorn (20 Sep 2004)

Just a point to try to show our Militia siblings that it isn't a problem unique to their pay system:

The whole thing is computer driven, and thus "garbage in - garbage out" comes into play. The brain-keyboard interface is the weak point regardless of the system. I'm hoping my own pay woes, two months old and completely unecesssary (IMO), will be sorted come the next month. They are totally related to SU-generated errors.

I'd like to note that the SU can't bear all of the blame. The e-mail driven system seems to have way too many holes in it.

In any case, I've had pay problems pop up through my whole career - 20+ reg and 4+ res. The only helpful words I can offer are: "it eventually sorts itself out." Not much help when you have to pay the bills.

Acorn


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