# Immigrant groups fear dual-citizenship review



## GAP (19 Oct 2006)

I have read many comments about this issue during the Lebanon Crisis. Now that things have settled down and things are calmer, what do you think about the issue?

Immigrant groups fear dual-citizenship review
PETTI FONG From Thursday's Globe and Mail
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061018.wxpassports19/BNStory/National/home

VANCOUVER — A number of Canadian immigrant groups say fear is building in their communities over whether a federal review of dual citizenship will lead to people having to choose which passport to keep.

They say Canadians with dual citizenship will face excruciating personal decisions if the government revokes the practice.

“I think the majority of the members of our community are very concerned,” said Svetlana Litvin, a leader with the Russian-speaking community in Montreal
More on link


----------



## 043 (19 Oct 2006)

What is wrong with having one of your citizenships revoked? Sounds good to me actually. That way the Canadian Government won't be on the dime during the next crisis in Lebanon when all the dual citizenshippers (LOL) are piss moaning about not getting evacuated fast enough.


----------



## FredDaHead (19 Oct 2006)

The choice shouldn't be excruciating. They came here on their own volition, didn't they? They applied for citizenship in Canada, didn't they?

Where's the problem?

If their own hellhole of a country is so great they want to keep their old citizenship and go back there until the next crisis, then they don't need Canadian citizenship. On the other hand, if they left their hellhole of a country for a valid reason, then they don't need that citizenship, do they?


----------



## sigpig (19 Oct 2006)

Just to be contrary....

My family and I are Canadians who are currently permanent residents in the US. We could apply for citizenship in 3 years. I have no idea how long we will stay in the US; until the kids finish school, until we retire, forever?

If we stay for some time, it would be nice to become citizens to more fully participate in the goings on of the country - ie, voting. At the same time I would never give up my Canadian citizenship. I will always love Canada and having the option to move back is very important.

Note that I would never consider it the responsibility of the Canadian government to do anything for my family while we are residents of another country. If we get crushed by a hurricane I don't expect Ottawa to send a ship or plane for us, we will deal with our local governments just like anyone else here.

I too disagree with the thought that Canadians who chose to live abroad expect the government to bail them out like in the Lebanon situation. Helping tourists or those on business who are caught up in something is one thing, but there should be no reason to have to help those who have chosen to live elsewhere at the current time.

If that can be agreed on then there should be no reason to remove the privilege of having dual citizenships. What would it hurt then?


----------



## DBA (19 Oct 2006)

It's not really possible to have other countries change the citizenship status of people based on Canada's wishes or laws. Some countries even have laws that make citizenship not subject to revocation. What Canada can do a bit easier is add requirements and limitations on Canadian citizenship. Like a base tax or surtax regardless of country of residence or revocation if a person acquires landed immigrant status in another country. Multiple citizenship is growing and benefits only a portion of all Canadians sometimes at rather large expense to the public purse. If they wish to be Canadian citizens while living in other countries then they should also contribute to the Canadian tax system in some way in addition to taxes in the country of residence.


----------



## GAP (19 Oct 2006)

While in the US military, they insisted that I apply for US citizenship in regards to security clearance. I would not give up my Canadian citizenship, and they told me that dual citizenships were out, so I told them to keep their security clearance. They simply shut up about the citizenship thing, and told me to fix the equipment.

Losing my Canadian citizenship is not an option.


----------



## Teflon (19 Oct 2006)

I don't know,... I'm pretty much of the opinion that a person has one nation he/she owes allegiance too. No divided loyalties in the event of poor relations etc, but I am born and bred in the same country that I live and serve same as my entire living family so I have never been in the postion where duel citizenship was even a consideration.  If you moved to Canada, intend to live in Canada, Work in Canada, and only visit your old homeland then be Canadian, if Canada decides to do away with the duel citizen practice then a person will have to make the choice. Well that's my 2 cents anyways.



> It's not really possible to have other countries change the citizenship status of people based on Canada's wishes or laws.



Canada can also choose to not recognize one of a duel citizenship persons citizenships, or revoke Canadian citizenship to someone holding another.


----------



## William Webb Ellis (19 Oct 2006)

I have dual-citizenship...UK and Canadian, infact it was only near the end of my time in the army that I became a "Canadian". As an aside I was no a Canadian when I went to Yugo..  I am Canadian, only have the UK by birth my parents escaped when I was young (thank god).

However, I will be renewing my passport, and will look into a passport for my kids.  Why?  The world is shrinking.  No longer is it odd to work in other countries, UK/Euro passport opens doors and gives  them more options


----------



## FredDaHead (19 Oct 2006)

sigpig said:
			
		

> I too disagree with the thought that Canadians who chose to live abroad expect the government to bail them out like in the Lebanon situation. Helping tourists or those on business who are caught up in something is one thing, but there should be no reason to have to help those who have chosen to live elsewhere at the current time.



What did the pretend-Canadians said when they were bitching to get out of Lebanon? "We are just tourists on vacation!" I don't even think we should help full-blown Canadians who only have this citizenship, when they're stupid enough to go to dangerous places the government explicitly tells them not to go to.

Now, NGOs or businesses in other countries are another thing: it's not like they just packed their bags and said "hmm, let's go to this war-torn country, it sounds like fun!" We should help humanitarian workers or businesspeople caught up in bad situations.

In short: on that point, I think tourists who left after a travel advisory was in effect should have no right to any kind of assistance. If they went to the country and while they were in, a situation developped where they got in trouble, fine. But if the government tells them "don't go" and they go anyway, it's their own problem and they can deal with it.


----------



## Kat Stevens (19 Oct 2006)

"Multiple citizenship is growing and benefits only a portion of all Canadians sometimes at rather large expense to the public purse."


  What, exactly, does my dual citizenship cost the Canadian taxpayer?  Other than 23 years of Canadian Army paycheques, of course.


----------



## Big Foot (19 Oct 2006)

I will be watching this situation with great interest as I hold dual citizenship. I am Canadian, first and foremost, and I suppose it can be said that I am Irish by convienience. That being said, I am equally proud of my roots, Canadian and Irish. However, if the government says one or the other, I will be a Canadian first. Canada is the country that gave me the opportunity to serve, Canada is the country of my birth and Canada is, and always will be, my home. I've already made my decision for when the government makes theirs; Canada first.


----------



## William Webb Ellis (19 Oct 2006)

Big Foot said:
			
		

> I will be watching this situation with great interest as I hold dual citizenship. I am Canadian, first and foremost, and I suppose it can be said that I am Irish by convienience. That being said, I am equally proud of my roots, Canadian and Irish. However, if the government says one or the other, I will be a Canadian first. Canada is the country that gave me the opportunity to serve, Canada is the country of my birth and Canada is, and always will be, my home. I've already made my decision for when the government makes theirs; Canada first.



Agreed


----------



## warrickdll (19 Oct 2006)

Iterator said:
			
		

> I believe that allowing Canadians to hold multiple citizenships to be a mistake.
> 
> There is no practical way to be completely and equally loyal to separate entities with separate agendas. This might not be much of a problem when the cultures are very similar, as in the US or UK, but that is only a happy coincidence - not a demonstration of the soundness of the principle.
> 
> *What is needed is something more than Permanent Resident (Landed Immigrant) status, with its inherent restrictions on the time allowed outside of Canada, but still less than full citizenship. Maybe give "Honourary Citizenship" a real meaning.*



I agree that there are many people who travel and work in many countries; having multiple citizenships helps them do business. But some form of Honourary Citizenship (or whatever it would be called) would solve that problem and stick to the logical principle of 1 person 1 citizenship (Full). 

Honourary Citizenship would solve the many problems that would be faced by those who are (hopefully) going to have to decide what their true nationality is.


----------



## Kirkhill (19 Oct 2006)

I fall into the same box as Kat, Webb Ellis and Big Foot.  I carry a UK passport for tribal reasons.


----------



## Edward Campbell (19 Oct 2006)

There is a problem for some Canadians, including those who have renounced their citizenship of birth.  When they travel to their country of birth *it* may not recognize their new Canadian citizenship.  It may decide – and some do, I believe, that once a _Geffuffian_, always a _Geffuffian_, regardless of what passport one now carries.  I have read/heard that some Canadians have had problems with this.

There is a Canadian citizen named Husein Dzhelil who is currently being held in jail in China – accused of terrorism* – and the Chinese, thus far, refuse to recognize his Canadian citizenship because he cannot produce his Canadian passport – it was seized in Uzbekistan which, subsequently, deported him to China. http://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions_details.asp?ActionID=157 

----------

* His family says he is an Uighur _nationalist_, by which they mean a _separatist_.  For the Chinese separatism = terrorism.


----------



## Cardstonkid (19 Oct 2006)

What should happen is that Dual Citizenship should be available if the other country is an ally. The term ally could be defined as the gov't wished, but logically it would be countries with a democratic system, a respect for human rights and military/ economic/ cultural connections. In the name of political correctness that will never happen though. Heaven forbid if we recognized that some people come to Canada for the money not for the citizenship.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 Oct 2006)

My wife is a PR here, as Malaysia will not allow their citizens to hold dual citizenship. She only came here because of me and still has a deep love of her home country but knows that with our daughter her future is here. It would be very difficult for her to give up the citizenship and would likely cause us problems for visiting family. Many people handle dual citizenship responsibly, some however do not.


----------



## GAP (19 Oct 2006)

At the same time all this was going on he never renounced his Chinese citizenship, thus, if he cannot produce a Canadian passport and is a Chinese Citizen...then he's theirs. Not saying it right or wrong, but I keep having a feeling not all is being told here, by all parties. Kinda like Cretian and the Kadar rescue.


----------



## Edward Campbell (19 Oct 2006)

GAP said:
			
		

> At the same time all this was going on he never renounced his Chinese citizenship, thus, if he cannot produce a Canadian passport and is a Chinese Citizen...then he's theirs. Not saying it right or wrong, but I keep having a feeling not all is being told here, by all parties. Kinda like Cretian and the Kadar rescue.



I think it is incumbent on the individual who has acquired another, foreign nationality to prove it to the Chinese government, under §9 of the Chinese Nationality Law: http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/ceindo/eng/lsqw/t87388.htm . If he cannot prove it then the Chinese have no way of knowing that he is no long a Chinese national.  Catch 22, sort of.


----------



## FredDaHead (19 Oct 2006)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> I think it is incumbent on the individual who has acquired another, foreign nationality to prove it to the Chinese government, under §9 of the Chinese Nationality Law: http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/ceindo/eng/lsqw/t87388.htm . If he cannot prove it then the Chinese have no way of knowing that he is no long a Chinese national.  Catch 22, sort of.



Even if he did prove he had Canadian citizenship, he'd still count as a Chinese national, considering he didn't give up that citizenship, wouldn't he? Or maybe I should just go and read the law itself... bah, after supper, I say!


----------



## warrickdll (19 Oct 2006)

Full Canadian Citizenship, should require renouncing all other Citizenships (Full). 

This must also be shown in actions: Canadians must not vote in foreign elections and must not serve in foreign militaries or as members of foreign governments.


----------



## DBA (21 Oct 2006)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> "Multiple citizenship is growing and benefits only a portion of all Canadians sometimes at rather large expense to the public purse."
> 
> What, exactly, does my dual citizenship cost the Canadian taxpayer?  Other than 23 years of Canadian Army paycheques, of course.



The evacuation of a large number of holders of dual citizenship from Lebanon cost a lot of money from the public purse. Make note of the word "sometimes" in my statement. Another trend is coming back to Canada for social support like welfare and medical care when things go wrong and heading back to a native country when times are good. I think dual citizenship is a fact of life these days but we should not let it be a free meal ticket on the backs of Canadian taxpayers. Most aren’t using Canadian citizenship in this way currently but the trend is starting.


----------



## Kat Stevens (21 Oct 2006)

DBA said:
			
		

> The evacuation of a large number of holders of dual citizenship from Lebanon cost a lot of money from the public purse. Make note of the word "sometimes" in my statement. Another trend is coming back to Canada for social support like welfare and medical care when things go wrong and heading back to a native country when times are good. I think dual citizenship is a fact of life these days but we should not let it be a free meal ticket on the backs of Canadian taxpayers. Most aren’t using Canadian citizenship in this way currently but the trend is starting.



Their DUAL citizenship isn't what cost, it was their CANADIAN (only) citizenship that made Canada obligated to evac them.  It did not cost one dime less for a "full" (more entitled?) Canadian, than a "partial" (not so entitled?) Canadian to get out. Did Canada help to evacuate its citizens from the tsunami zone?  If so, would it have mattered what other passports were in their pockets?  After paying taxes in Canada since I was 17, I think I'd be entitled to a boat ride if the fewmets struck the oscilator in the places I find myself.  *Before anyone misreads me, if you get a passport just as a get out of jail card, that's one thing.  Because I contribute to Canada every day, yet choose to retain citizenship of the land of my birth, is quite another.*


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Oct 2006)

Hey Kat - you're heading down Heinlein's road - A citizen is a soldier and a taxpayer.  Without meeting those obligations you don't merit rights.  ;D


----------



## Cardstonkid (21 Oct 2006)

Taliban Jack and his merry band of dim-wits has asked the Conservatives to stop this whole review. Apparently it is stressing out immigrants! What a guy. If we cannot review the rules for entering our country because it might upset potential citizens, what does that say about the agenda of these individuals? The NDP obviously feel a Canadian citizenship is like a big UN citizenship entitling everyone from around the world the right to dip in and take what they want from Canada without any regard of contributing anything back. If immigrants really are "concerned," then there are many other more "liberal" countries more than happy to let them come there.


----------



## Redeye (21 Oct 2006)

Whether it's stressing out immigrants or whatever is immaterial, a discussion regarding policy on dual citizenship is effectively pointless.  I wouldn't be opposed to seeing more difficult rules for obtaining Canadian citizenship to make it less likely to become a "citizenship of convenience", but in practical terms it's basically impossible to prevent someone from holding multiple citizenships.  The reason is simple - a Canadian law has no impact on any other nation, or how it determines its citizens.  In practice renouncing citizenship of many countries is extremely difficult, and in most cases there's no real way to do so.  Ask anyone who holds American citizenship who has tried to renouce their US citizenship on permanently emigrating.

I wish there was a way to recoup some of the money pissed away on rescuing those folks from Lebanon.  In theory, I don't see why it would have been impossible to refuse to evacuate individuals who were also Lebanese citizens who could not prove residential ties to Canada.


----------



## RangerRay (22 Oct 2006)

I think we should only allow "dual-citizenship" for a small circle of countries.  For instance, allowing dual-citizenship for all Commonwealth nations with Queen Elizabeth II (UK, Canada, Australia, Jamaica, etc.) would makes sense since we have the same Sovereign.  Then perhaps expanding that to other allied countries that we have significant cultural and economic ties to (US, Ireland, South Africa, India, possibly France).  But I think it's asanine that we allow dual-citizenship to countries that have no relevant ties or are hostile to this country.  If they want to be Canadian citizens, lose the other citizenship.


----------



## youravatar (22 Oct 2006)

The aptly named "Canadians of Convinience" should all have their citizenship revoked. Honestly? They do nothing but sit around and wait for something bad to happen? You don't love Canada enough? Get out.


----------



## Redeye (22 Oct 2006)

RangerRay said:
			
		

> I think we should only allow "dual-citizenship" for a small circle of countries.  For instance, allowing dual-citizenship for all Commonwealth nations with Queen Elizabeth II (UK, Canada, Australia, Jamaica, etc.) would makes sense since we have the same Sovereign.  Then perhaps expanding that to other allied countries that we have significant cultural and economic ties to (US, Ireland, South Africa, India, possibly France).  But I think it's asanine that we allow dual-citizenship to countries that have no relevant ties or are hostile to this country.  If they want to be Canadian citizens, lose the other citizenship.



I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but in principle it's really possible to enforce such a law.  Dual citizenship exists and isn't really going to go away.


----------



## sober_ruski (23 Oct 2006)

Problem with dual citizenship is... the motherland (guess  ) will give me the defaul citizenship when i go there for vacation. I left, with my parents, a year before recieving my passport at the age of 14. Now when i go back there i will be faced with a challenge such as... being drafted into the russian army  , so personally for me, question of the dual citizenship is a non-issue. I will submit papers to cancel my default Russian citizenship as soon as i know when i'm going... in a couple years.


----------



## George Wallace (23 Oct 2006)

sober_ruski said:
			
		

> Problem with dual citizenship is... the motherland (guess  ) will give me the defaul citizenship when i go there for vacation. I left, with my parents, a year before recieving my passport at the age of 14. Now when i go back there i will be faced with a challenge such as... being drafted into the russian army  , so personally for me, question of the dual citizenship is a non-issue. I will submit papers to cancel my default Russian citizenship as soon as i know when i'm going... in a couple years.



As you are over the age of 18, you can (in most cases 'must') make a choice.  One of my brothers was born in France.  When he turned 18 he had to make a choice of which Citizenship he was going to take.  As he didn't want to be conscripted in to the French Armed Forces, should he ever have returned to France, he choose his Canadian Citizenship.  However, that was not the end of his problems, as was discussed in another Topic:  Military Brats Born Oversea's Not Canadian's?! Even if in a Canadian overseas hospital!?!    Beware Government Regulations.........and the lack of communication between the different Government Departments.


----------



## BillN (23 Oct 2006)

Speaking as an immigrant to this great country.......

My family came here 40 years ago this year from the UK.  My 4 brothers and sisters will tell you that it was the best decision my father and mother ever made, especially for we kids.  Having been back to the UK and the city of my birth to visit relatives etc, I can tell you that under no circumstance would I want to live there.  

In 1974 I took out Canadian Citizenship so I could join the Militia (as it was then called), and in 1977 I returned to the UK and served 4 years in the RAF.  It was a great time, and I certainly learned to appreciate Canada a hell of a lot more.  BUT, for my 4 years in the RAF I served as a Canadian Citizen, not British.  I even wore "Canada" flashes on my best blues    In 1981 I transferred to the CF as a Traffic Tech, along with a pile of drunken RN Submariners who were needed to man the old O Boats.

I'm very proud of the fact that I have served both of my countries.  I wouldn't have had it any other way.  

However, in 2001 I returned to the UK for a holiday and entered the country on a Canadian passport, which clearly showed my place and country of birth.  I was harassed for over 30 minutes about why I didn't have a UK passport.  The customs guy didn't get any happier when I told him that I had never held a UK passport.

My Father, although very proud to be British, was the first in our family to take out Canadian Citizenship.  I remember asking him why.  His answer is one that I think a lot of our recent immigrants should listen to.  He said that "if this country was good enough to accept me, then it is my duty to accept this county". 

In 2002 I sent the UK Commonwealth and Foreign Office a registered letter totally renouncing my UK citizenship.  I have a framed copy of that letter on my office wall.

Some people may disagree with me, but I firmly believe that if you emigrate to any country, not just Canada, then dual citizenship should not be an option.  I do not understand these people that emigrate to Canada and hold on to what they left behind.  They, like my family, obviously left their country of origin to find a better life, and my friends trust me, you ain't going to find a better place than Canada to live.

Me?  I'm Canadian  and when I die, I have instructions that my grave marker is to have a maple leaf on it.

Bill
Kingston


----------



## medaid (23 Oct 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> The choice shouldn't be excruciating. They came here on their own volition, didn't they? They applied for citizenship in Canada, didn't they?
> 
> Where's the problem?
> 
> If their own hellhole of a country is so great they want to keep their old citizenship and go back there until the next crisis, then they don't need Canadian citizenship. On the other hand, if they left their hellhole of a country for a valid reason, then they don't need that citizenship, do they?



I STRONGLY disagree and RESENT your comment with regards to individuals holding dual citizenships. I will not pose a question to you, and you dont have to answer this if you dont want to, but do YOU hold another citizenship? Not everyone who owns a dual citizenship comes from a 'hellhole of a country'. I hold dual citizenship, however, I wasnt born here. I am a Canadian in everyway possible. However, I am also a national of the country I came from. Canada as a country is made up of diverse people who come from all over the world, and most do still hold the citizenship of their origin country at the same time as their Canadian one. Does that make them less Canadian then you or me? They pay the same taxes, they work at some of the same jobs, and some of them may have even bled for this county... now honestly what gives you the right to belittle their country of origin? or protesting their privilige of being a Canadian citizen? By your own theory based on the probability of human stupidity, (when you made the comment of about how stupid some Lebanese were and others to go to dangerous countries when our government told them not to) does that mean we should stop rescuing mountain climbers and hikers because they were too stupid to pack properly or get better training? How about the homeless? stop caring about them why dont we? and the idiots who speed and crash and inure themselves, whould we tell our paramedics and hospital personnel to stop their care to them? STUPIDITY right? 

Canada was never based on 1 culture. From the beginning it had been a mix of cultures, and now it is merely a bigger mix. Did any of the British think they were Canadian when this country first started? I dont think so...they were British foremost... Yes I will agree with some that there are freeloaders who come here to enjoy the good life and abuse the system, but there are countless honest legitimate business people, trained profesionals who come here to truely search for a good life who would rather not give up their citizenship because they have families, business ties and sorts that they will have hard time to maintain if they did give it up. There are countries with laws which PROHIBIT foreign nationals from owning businesses there... so by default, revoking their citizenship means you cut their life line. So...will YOU give them a job? give them money to survive? give them food to eat?? WILL YOU? If we did that would these people not go on wellfare? and 'ABUSE' the system? 


ugh!....I'm sorry but I have a hard time sometimes when people who are 'Canadians' claims that those who have dual citizenships are unloyal and unpatriotic to our nation because they refuse to give the other one up. Dont forget, our economy is based LARGELY on trade and export...think how silly it would be if you slashed your own wrists by forcing one citizenship...some of your best business ppl right now might just up and leave. Economy...remember?


----------



## sigpig (23 Oct 2006)

MedTech said:
			
		

> ugh!....I'm sorry but I have a hard time sometimes when people who are 'Canadians' claims that those who have dual citizenships are unloyal and unpatriotic to our nation because they refuse to give the other one up.



Exactly. If and when I obtain my American citizenship I have no intention of giving up my Canadian citizenship and don't think I have to. I will not impose on the country I'm not living in at the moment, but I don't see any reason to give up my current citizenship.


----------



## Brad Sallows (23 Oct 2006)

Holding multiple citizenship doesn't make one disloyal or unpatriotic, although the real test is to ask oneself: if the nations of which I am a citizen were at war, for which would I take up arms?  If you can't say with self-honesty (those who can lie to themselves have my scorn but not my pity) that you'd go to the wall rather than fight for either against either, then obviously your loyalties must be stronger in one direction.

The real issue isn't loyalty or patriotism.  The plain fact is that people migrate for self-advantage.  In some cases, the migration is temporary - regardless whether it is measured in months or years - and the question of taking out citizenship in the host country isn't compelling except to a person who is motivated by some intangible feelings for the host country.  Leaving those exceptions aside, to seek residency and citizenship in a foreign nation is nearly always a bid to improve one's own circumstances.  So the question is prompted: what do you owe for what you receive?

Canadian citizenship is accompanied by a hefty package of privileges, which translates into hefty obligations on the part of those who pay.  At the least, it's reasonable to prevent Canadian citizenship from being used as a passport of convenience.  At the least, it's reasonable to expect each Canadian citizen to minimize the burden he might impose on others.


----------



## medaid (23 Oct 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Holding multiple citizenship doesn't make one disloyal or unpatriotic, although the real test is to ask oneself: if the nations of which I am a citizen were at war, for which would I take up arms?  If you can't say with self-honesty (those who can lie to themselves have my scorn but not my pity) that you'd go to the wall rather than fight for either against either, then obviously your loyalties must be stronger in one direction.
> 
> The real issue isn't loyalty or patriotism.  The plain fact is that people migrate for self-advantage.  In some cases, the migration is temporary - regardless whether it is measured in months or years - and the question of taking out citizenship in the host country isn't compelling except to a person who is motivated by some intangible feelings for the host country.  Leaving those exceptions aside, to seek residency and citizenship in a foreign nation is nearly always a bid to improve one's own circumstances.  So the question is prompted: what do you owe for what you receive?
> 
> Canadian citizenship is accompanied by a hefty package of privileges, which translates into hefty obligations on the part of those who pay.  At the least, it's reasonable to prevent Canadian citizenship from being used as a passport of convenience.  At the least, it's reasonable to expect each Canadian citizen to minimize the burden he might impose on others.




Agreed on that.


----------



## sober_ruski (24 Oct 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> stuff


As i said in my post, papers to cancel my default Russian citizenship will be submitted as soon as i know that i'm going there for vacation.


On the other hand... if S really HTF, i might end up having old school friends of mine (one is a military (navy) uni in Vladivostok there right now) in my sights... or be in theirs. Kinda screwed up, eh?


----------



## Kirkhill (24 Oct 2006)

Sir John A. MacDonald, First Prime Minister of Canada:

"A British subject I was born. A British subject I will die." 

Good enough for him. Good enough for me.


----------



## warrickdll (24 Oct 2006)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Sir John A. MacDonald, First Prime Minister of Canada:
> 
> "A British subject I was born. A British subject I will die."
> 
> Good enough for him. Good enough for me.



I assume you mean by having 1 citizenship?


----------



## Kirkhill (24 Oct 2006)

Iterator said:
			
		

> I assume you mean by having 1 citizenship?



Caught, dammit.  ;D


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Oct 2006)

I raised this point here - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49914/post-456710.html#msg456710  on 2006-10-05; here it is again, as reported in a _Globe and Mail_ article which is reproduced here under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20061025.ITAR25/TPStory/?query=U.S.+rules+limit+hiring  


> U.S. rules limit hiring at Montreal firm
> *Dual citizens barred from certain positions at aerospace services provider CAE Inc.*
> 
> DANIEL LEBLANC
> ...



This is a very human dilemma for employers and employees alike.

Now, I, personally, am inclined to believe that when a new Canadian accepts Canadian citizenship (s)he should, formally, renounce the citizenship of his or her birth and surrender any other passport and should refrain from applying, ever again, for another passport.  But, I recognize that:

•	Some nations do not care if you renounce citizenship – they still say: “You were born here, you’re one of us, regardless of that useless scrap of paper called a Canadian passport.  We’ve got you, we’ll do with you or to you as we please and there’s nothing Canada can do about it.”

•	There might be good reasons for loyal, tax paying, contributing Canadians to want use another passport, now and again.

I also believe that companies should be able to use ITAR (and similar foreign programmes) to discriminate in hiring and employment; but I think firing should not be allowed on that basis, alone – if José cannot be employed on this contract because he was born in Cuba then, I believe, the company must find him a new job at equal or higher salary.


----------



## warrickdll (25 Oct 2006)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> ...
> This is a very human dilemma for employers and employees alike.
> 
> Now, I, personally, am inclined to believe that when a new Canadian accepts Canadian citizenship (s)he should, formally, renounce the citizenship of his or her birth and surrender any other passport and should refrain from applying, ever again, for another passport.  But, I recognize that:
> ...




The formal renunciation should be part of the Canadian Citizenship program. If the former nation still insists that it will not recognize Canadian Citizenship then this should be strongly pursued by the Foreign Affairs department. If Canada does not have the clout to have its own Citizenship recognized as such then that person must be mindful of where they travel. As long as the renunciation is on record then this should not be a problem in gaining Canadian Citizenship.

Perhaps Canada chose the dual citizenship course to avoid the embarrassment of not having its own Citizenship fully recognized?  




			
				Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> ...
> •	There might be good reasons for loyal, tax paying, contributing Canadians to want use another passport, now and again.
> ...



To want to be something other than Canadian I think is from one of two reasons: either they are not yet fully Canadian; or they fear that their ability to reside in Canada will be lost. For the former there isn't anything to be done, you either feel that you are more Canadian than anything else, or you don't - and so you should not be a Canadian Citizen. For the latter, I have proposed a way to allow someone the ability to frequent Canada without constant vetting. 




			
				Iterator said:
			
		

> ...
> What is needed is something more than Permanent Resident (Landed Immigrant) status, with its inherent restrictions on the time allowed outside of Canada, but still less than full citizenship. Maybe give "Honourary Citizenship" a real meaning.


----------



## Kat Stevens (25 Oct 2006)

Iterator said:
			
		

> The formal renunciation should be part of the Canadian Citizenship program. If the former nation still insists that it will not recognize Canadian Citizenship then this should be strongly pursued by the Foreign Affairs department. If Canada does not have the clout to have its own Citizenship recognized as such then that person must be mindful of where they travel. As long as the renunciation is on record then this should not be a problem in gaining Canadian Citizenship.
> 
> *And you think getting those people out of Lebanon was expensive?  I can imagine the tab for this idea.*
> 
> ...


----------



## warrickdll (25 Oct 2006)

Iterator said:
			
		

> ...
> The formal renunciation should be part of the Canadian Citizenship program. If the former nation still insists that it will not recognize Canadian Citizenship then this should be strongly pursued by the Foreign Affairs department.
> ...





			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> ...
> And you think getting those people out of Lebanon was expensive?  I can imagine the tab for this idea.
> ...



It is what Canada must do as a sovereign nation.






			
				Iterator said:
			
		

> ...
> To want to be something other than Canadian I think is from one of two reasons: either they are not yet fully Canadian; or they fear that their ability to reside in Canada will be lost. For the former there isn't anything to be done, you either feel that you are more Canadian than anything else, or you don't - and so you should not be a Canadian Citizen. For the latter, I have proposed a way to allow someone the ability to frequent Canada without constant vetting.





			
				Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> ...
> Neither of the above, but thanks for playing.  My reasons for retaining British citizenship are my own, and, quite frankly, none of your frackin'  business.



I believe in single citizenship, and I do not want to have Canadians who do not feel more Canadian than they do a foreign nationality - this is, I believe, the threshold that must be overcome.

There are alternatives to dual-citizenship; I have proposed one.


----------



## Edward Campbell (25 Oct 2006)

Iterator said:
			
		

> It is what Canada must do as a sovereign nation.



I don't agree.

Despite my preference for unitary citizenship, I think there is little we can do or even want to bother trying to do about e.g. Iran.  We should, as I believe DFAIT does, caution all Canadians with dual citizenship, including, *especially* the *involuntary* kind, about the risks they take when they return to the country of their birth.

It seems to me that satisfies all our concerns.  Our sovereignty does not depend on ensuring that another country obeys our laws.  That's extraterritoriality and we oppose it when others try to apply it to us and we should avoid doing the same to others.  Our sovereignty ends at our borders.  Those Canadian citizens who leave our borders have a legitimate claim on our assistance when they are overseas but neither they nor we have any legitimate right to tell any other country how to make and apply their own laws.  When I enter China, as a Canadian, I break Chinese laws at my peril.


----------



## Brad Sallows (25 Oct 2006)

>if José cannot be employed on this contract because he was born in Cuba then, I believe, the company must find him a new job at equal or higher salary.

If a company has no contracts/projects against which to bill Jose's time, then Jose should be laid off.  If the company's contracts/projects have ITAR conditions and effectively there is no contract/project against which to bill Jose's time, Jose should be laid off.  Jose isn't entitled to a job.


----------



## warrickdll (25 Oct 2006)

Iterator said:
			
		

> ...
> If the former nation still insists that it will not recognize Canadian Citizenship then this should be strongly pursued by the Foreign Affairs department.
> ...





			
				Iterator said:
			
		

> It is what Canada must do as a sovereign nation.
> ...





			
				Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> I don't agree.
> 
> Despite my preference for unitary citizenship, I think there is little we can do or even want to bother trying to do about e.g. Iran.  We should, as I believe DFAIT does, caution all Canadians with dual citizenship, including, *especially* the *involuntary* kind, about the risks they take when they return to the country of their birth.
> 
> It seems to me that satisfies all our concerns.  Our sovereignty does not depend on ensuring that another country obeys our laws.  That's extraterritoriality and we oppose it when others try to apply it to us and we should avoid doing the same to others.  Our sovereignty ends at our borders.  Those Canadian citizens who leave our borders have a legitimate claim on our assistance when they are overseas but neither they nor we have any legitimate right to tell any other country how to make and apply their own laws.  When I enter China, as a Canadian, I break Chinese laws at my peril.





Having any issue "strongly pursued" by DFAIT isn't the kind of "extraterritoriality" I would think Canada opposes. If you don't pursue a diplomatic objective, how would it be obtained?

I do believe that it is an issue for any nation to have its citizens recognized as *its* citizens. After all, if you did break the law in China, how would Canada know unless China informed it (which China would/should do if it arrested a Canadian)?


What other nations do isn't the stumbling block in having Canada return to a single-citizenship system:



			
				Iterator said:
			
		

> ...
> As long as the renunciation is on record then this should not be a problem in gaining Canadian Citizenship.
> ...


----------



## Kirkhill (25 Oct 2006)

Just curious - does anybody believe that removing dual-citizenship will end the problem of divided loyalties?

How about when Catholic-Canadians are advised to vote against the government on abortion and same-sex marriage?
How about Muslim-Canadians who see their home countries' governments, indeed the whole concept of a country, as an affront to the establishment of Dar-al-Islam?
How about those naturally born Canadians who are so adamantly opposed to the policies of the Government of the Day that they take Direct Action against it? Litton Industries? Oka? FLQ? General Strikes I have known?

As noted previously I swore allegiance to HM on British soil and Canadian soil.  The good news is I can't foresee the time when the governments of those two countries will get to the point where I have to go and invade Ayr or my cousins come visiting Aldergrove with guns.   The bad news is that if I had had to make a choice - I don't know what the outcome might have been.  It would have been a different contract I was being asked to sign.

As it stands now - I would end up defending Canada because my kids are Canadians as are my in-laws.  Those aren't the same reasons I had when I signed up with the Canadian Militia over 20 years ago (after having been turned down by the regular Canadian Navy for eyesight).   

As to carrying a Brit passport - I enjoy being able to flash it and bypass the line-ups at Heathrow.  It also gives me speedy passage at Copenhagen and Amsterdam.  Beyond that, like most immigrants, as soon as I open my mouth people know I am not from here.  By contrast the folks in Ayr don't need me to show a passport to be able to place me within five miles of the hospital I was born in.  Until I get within that five mile circle I am a furriner.

Cheers.


----------



## warrickdll (25 Oct 2006)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Just curious - does anybody believe that removing dual-citizenship will end the problem of divided loyalties?
> ...



I do not believe so. Nor do I believe it would fix everything concerning the other topic on Lebanon. Divided loyalties are natural. I see this more as a commitment, a choice that must be made. 

The Lebanon situation brought out the fact that, when the going gets tough, hard decision will need to be made. Canada has a singular responsibility to its citizens, and in turn they have the reciprocal singular responsibility to Canada. That responsibility to Canada cannot be equally shared across multiple nations.





			
				Kirkhill said:
			
		

> ...
> As noted previously I swore allegiance to HM on British soil and Canadian soil.  The good news is I can't foresee the time when the governments of those two countries will get to the point where I have to go and invade Ayr or my cousins come visiting Aldergrove with guns.
> ...



You would be swearing allegiance to the Queen of GB and N. Ireland for the British forces and then the Queen of Canada for Canadian forces, so it isn't technically the same HM (this grieves me to no end - but that is a different topic). 

The similarities between UK and US cultures to Canada do not require a special circumstance for dual-citizenship. There are other ways to allow someone the ability to reside and benefit from Canada without full Citizenship, what is required is a status above Permanent Resident (which restricts your time allowed outside of Canada), and this should be developed prior to switching back to the single-citizenship system. 




			
				Kirkhill said:
			
		

> ...
> As to carrying a Brit passport - I enjoy being able to flash it and bypass the line-ups at Heathrow.  It also gives me speedy passage at Copenhagen and Amsterdam. ...



There are, as others have mentioned, very practical reasons why someone, who feels very Canadian, would not want a single-citizenship system for Canada (travel/family/pensions/etc.).  And, if I had multiple citizenships, I would hold onto them for as long as possible; but in the end a choice should have to be made.


----------



## Redeye (25 Oct 2006)

All, but Iterator in particular:

Trying to outlaw dual citizenship is a pointless exercise for a fairly simple reason.  I am a loyal, ferociously patriotic Canadian citizen by birth.  I hold citizenship of the United Kingdom by ancestry.  There is no way I would ever renounce that citizenship, nor surrender my UK passport.  No Canadian law could force me to do so and if any law attempted, I'd go to court and win.  Canada has no legal right or means to have any impact on my other citizenship.  Since a lot of the dual citizens you want to deal with are similar in circumstances to me (ie Canadian born).  

Further, the idea that DFAIT (it would be Citizenship and Immigration Canada, but that's a moot point)  pursue the renunciation of foreign citizenships by naturalized Canadians would also be a pointless waste of time, since most countries would tell them to pound salt.  Never mind the idea introducing another class of residency in Canada (Permanent residence and citizenship is more than enough).  The fact is that the situation of the evacuation of all those individuals from Lebanon, which is what touched this all off, is a rare occasion.  Dual citizens retain connections to their other country for any of a number of reasons, the vast majority of which should be of no concern to us.  The whole debate remains utterly pointless.


----------



## Brad Sallows (26 Oct 2006)

There are two distinct parts to the debate:

1) Status.

2) Privileges.

Canada has full control over the latter.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (26 Oct 2006)

Frankly Canada should be offering citizenship to Gurkha's willing to serve in the Canadian Army for 5 years and be able to bring over immediate family, they would make a good contribution to our society.


----------



## warspite (8 Nov 2006)

Well dual citizenship back in the news.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/07/dual-citizenship.html


> Ottawa reviewing rules of dual citizenship: Solberg
> Last Updated: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 | 1:56 PM ET
> CBC News
> Ottawa is reviewing the rules governing dual citizenship and whether Canadians living abroad should qualify for social programs when they return, Citizenship and Immigration Minister Monte Solberg confirmed Tuesday.
> ...


----------



## Redeye (8 Nov 2006)

This isn't a dual citizenship issue, then.  It's an access to services based on residency issue, and that's alright.  Health care already works like this: if you are an expatriate and return to Canada, even if you are a citizen you face a 90 day waiting period before you're eligible to access public health insurance benefits.  That system is designed so that people can't just run for the border to get health care they haven't been paying into.  Makes sense to me to restrict access in that way - although a broad stroke isn't necessarily a good idea.  I would suggest a mechanism that gives a more diligent review to applications for social program access by returning Canadians to see if the need for them is legitimate or a result of poor planning or attempted exploitation - ie did they plan for their return properly or have they hit a spell of hard luck.  I don't know how such a system could be effectively managed though, that's the trick.


----------



## TCBF (11 Nov 2006)

"divided loyalties? How about when Catholic-Canadians are advised to vote against the government on abortion and same-sex marriage?"

- Since when is voting against a government considered disloyal?

"Canada has no legal right or means to have any impact on my other citizenship."

- Well, not quite.  Canada could pass a law stating that a Canadian citizen may not hold citizenship of any other nation.  It would have a grandfathering clause, of course. After that, you can be a landed immigrant, but unless your country of birth lets you relinquish, you cannot become a Canadian.  As well, from that point, acquiring another citizenship would immediately nullify your Canadian one. 

Too easy.

But the issue here is "services".  I think dual citizens should have a primary nation based on geography:  when I go back to my fatherland of Elbownia, I am able to access Elbownian services, ergo, Canada does not have to provide for me in the way of consular support, legal issues, evacuation and so on.  This would eliminate those gangsters who become Canadians so their home country will not execute them.

I say phoeey.  If I spend half of each year in Elbownia, Elbownia can execute me, and Canada should not have to shed a single tear or penny.

Tom


----------



## Kirkhill (11 Nov 2006)

> I say phoeey.  If I spend half of each year in Elbownia, Elbownia can execute me, and Canada should not have to shed a single tear or penny.



As a dual citizen I say "Hear! Hear!"


----------



## The Bread Guy (12 Nov 2006)

A bit more of the latest on this one....

*Solberg reviews dual citizenship but larger issues loom, say experts  * 
Bruce Cheadle, Canadian Press, 12 Nov 06
Article Link

The Canadian government has no idea how many Canadian citizens live abroad - and isn't trying to find out - but independent researchers say the number is close to three million and growing. That's a figure that could swamp Canada's relatively generous social programs if this pool of non-tax-paying citizens were to spill back into the country in retirement. Yet the government response to date has been limited to vague musing about a review of dual citizenship - an approach that experts say totally misses the mark ....

(R)estricting or ending dual citizenship might make it more difficult for Canada to attract or retain skilled immigrant workers from the 90 or so countries that permit it. That means a government review of dual citizenship misses the mark, according to senior researcher Kenny Zhang of the Asia Pacific Foundation of Canada. "From my point of view, that's the wrong medicine for the issue," Zhang said in an interview. If the Canadian government has a problem with citizens living abroad for the balance of their working lives, and then returning in retirement for medical care and other social services, the solution has little to do with dual citizenship ....

Don DeVoretz, an economist at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, is another researcher specializing in migration and citizenship issues.  He agrees with Zhang that dual citizenship in the current debate is a red herring. But he's much less sanguine about the impact of Canada's huge population abroad.  "People talk about the benefits of the Canadian diaspora. I don't see them," DeVoretz said in an interview.  "The policy question is, can we rig it better so that the benefits accrue to Canadians? That's the nub of the matter.  "And if we have any policy, it has to be (directed) to everybody living abroad, not just for the Chinese. And I don't think any government has the nerve." ....


*Economist wants Canada to show 'more self interest' in treatment of nationals abroad*
Canadian Press, 12 Nov 06
Article Link

For the record, Don DeVoretz doesn't criticize immigrants who come to Canada, stay long enough to become citizens, then leave to sow greener pastures in the world's economic hothouses.  "Nobody's breaking any law here," the economist and immigration researcher said in an interview from Simon Fraser University in Vancouver, where he's co-director of Research for Immigration and Integration in the Metropolis, or RIIM.  "If we set up the policy to encourage people to come here, get citizenship and leave without paying taxes, I would do it. You would. It's not evil."  But DeVoretz does take issue with some of Canada's current immigration and citizenship policy.  In an increasingly mobile world, Canada's generous social programs, platinum passport and low threshold for naturalization make this country an attractive way-station.  Whether that is a good or bad thing for the country depends on who you talk to ....


----------



## rregtc-etf (23 Nov 2006)

If people are so concerned about divided loyalties, why do we accept landed immigrants (non citizens) into the CF, police forces and political parties.  In theory the landed immigrants in a political party can elect the party leader that you the Canadian citizen vote to be PM.   In today's shrinking world dual citizenship makes a lot of sense and can also have a stabilizing effect of Canadian ex-pats pushing for services in other countries to at least Canadian standards. I think the President of Latvia or Lithuania is a Canadian. There are more benefits overall to dual citizenship in the long run.  Incidentally, i have only ever held Canadian citizenship


----------



## The Bread Guy (8 Dec 2006)

Not JUST immigrant groups - shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

*Harper suggests Governor General set precedent on dual citizenship *  
Canadian Press, 8 Dec 06
Article Link

 Stephen Harper took a thinly disguised jab at Stephane Dion, subtly suggesting Friday the new Liberal leader might want to surrender his French citizenship. 

The prime minister noted Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean gave up her French citizenship shortly after being named to the vice-regal post. 

"As you know the Governor General was faced with a similar decision and I certainly supported her decision when she gave up her (French) citizenship," Harper said when asked about the matter. 

"Obviously, I think everyone has a right to select options under the law, they have to use their own political judgment." 

Dion, who holds French and Canadian citizenship, has responded testily to suggestions he renounce the former, saying he has proved his loyalty to Canada. 

Former Liberal prime minister John Turner also holds dual citizenship, having been born in Britain. 

An estimated 700,000 dual citizens live in Canada, though many more - the numbers are unclear - live abroad. 

Dion says he has maintained his French citizenship out of respect for his mother. 

"It's part of me. It's my mother who gave that to me. And like all sons, I love my mother and I love what she gave to me. And so to remove that from me, I'd be sad," Dion said in a TV interview this week. 

"This being said, if I see that it's a liability for our winnability, I will do it." 

Earlier in the week Dion said his loyalty to Canada can't be questioned - not after he was vilified by many people in his own province while standing up for national unity. 

"I'm proud of who I am, and I am fully loyal to my country, and nobody will question that," he said. 

"I'm 100 per cent loyal to Canada, and I believe I've more than demonstrated that in my life."


----------



## Old Sweat (8 Dec 2006)

This subject is fubared amazingly. Turner was born in the UK, so he could apply for a British passport. This probably leads to the assumption that he is a dual citizen. This also applies to the other public figures who were born abroad. However, if they do not opt for the foreign citizenship, then they are exclusively Canadian.

Other countries do  not accept this. I had a soldier in my troop in Gagetown who had a warning in his personnel file that, as he had been born in Belgium and had received a call up notice from the Belgian army, he should not set foot in that country, as he would be suject to arrest for 'draft dodging.'

Now, to toss a red herring into the debate, I was not originally a Canadian citizen, although I was first saw the light of day in Fort Erie, Ontario. I was born a British subject, and it was not until 1947 that I became a Canadian citizen, thanks to a long overdue act of the Canadian parliament.


----------



## niner domestic (27 Feb 2007)

I've added this development in the ever increasing debates on Canadian citizenship to this thread. 

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/lost_citizens

I'm torn on this one especially with the particular references to the CF membership and DFAIT staffers.  While my personal history has had to deal with the issues of dual citizenship with my kid being born in the UK and making sure she had the right paperwork completed, and having to deal with my issue of my convoluted citizenship, I can see both sides of this issue. The UK has had some major changes to it's citizenship laws in which both the kid and I got caught in and it's taken some time to sort it all out.  

However, I'm having some difficulty with the connection that the article has made to the fathering of children out of wedlock by CF personnel and diplomats.  While only the most naivest of persons would not believe there are children born to CF personnel and diplomats (especially during WWII), I'm offended that these two services have been singled out as opposed to merely giving reference to any Cdn who is travelling abroad who fathers a child.   

I'm torn with this issue with the direct implication that children whose parents were not married at their birth or have since birth not married, should be assumed to have citizenship of the father.  Perhaps I am a little jaded with the overarching assumption that patriarchy is alive and well in the world of citizenship as I discovered with my own kid's birth that being a Cdn mother, did not give her the right to citizenship in Canada and we had to apply for it as if this 3 month old kid was a full fledged immigrant (it was actually quite humourous that I had to sponsor my own 3 month old child).  Or perhaps it's just a point that a child born out of wedlock are using a point of connection to gain access to a quick immigration solution.  If your read the Citizenship Act, once the child's parents were married they had no fear of not remaining a citizen - this applies to the UK as well.  

What I think I'm seeing in these cases, are instances of persons who had been fathered by a Cdn, their parents never married and the appropriate paperwork was never completed.  Now with the requirement of having to have a passport to head to the US, these persons are finding they did not have the appropriate paperwork completed.  While i can appreciate that the citizenship requirements do not include children born out of wedlock as having an automatic claim to citizenship, I am questioning why those who have been in residence in Canada since their birth or shortly after, why they do/did not simply apply for their citizenship? In my own experience the paperwork wasn't all that difficult to complete, it just took some extra visits to the High Commission and then a trip to what was then, Immigration and Citizenship to get the kid's final papers filled out and pay the 5 bucks.  I'm curious as to why these persons have never taken the steps to ensure their citizenship other than simply not being aware.  If it is simply a matter of having to apply from outside of Canada as everyone else applying has to, then so be it, or simply applying now and paying the fees, taking the test and being sworn in.  I mean come on, for the last 25 years, my kid has had to carry her citizenship ID, it didn't take being a rocket scientist to figure out that she was born outside Canada, and needed proof of citizenship to get back in.  Is this article suggesting that these 100,000 estimated persons have never once travelled out of Canada?


----------



## Sassy (28 Feb 2007)

Redeye said:
			
		

> This isn't a dual citizenship issue, then.  It's an access to services based on residency issue, and that's alright.  Health care already works like this: if you are an expatriate and return to Canada, even if you are a citizen you face a 90 day waiting period before you're eligible to access public health insurance benefits.  That system is designed so that people can't just run for the border to get health care they haven't been paying into.  Makes sense to me to restrict access in that way - although a broad stroke isn't necessarily a good idea.  I would suggest a mechanism that gives a more diligent review to applications for social program access by returning Canadians to see if the need for them is legitimate or a result of poor planning or attempted exploitation - ie did they plan for their return properly or have they hit a spell of hard luck.  I don't know how such a system could be effectively managed though, that's the trick.



I agree, I have no issue with dual citizenship but I do have a problem when Canada as a country goes into a war torn country to evacuate people who haven't live in Canada for years.  Canada should inform dual citizens that you will  not be protected by Canada in the event of conflict or war.  If someone chooses to reside outside of Canada than you except the consequences of your decision not the Canadian Tax Payer.  In the for seeable future I can only think of Lebanon as another example where Canada has to rescue supposed Canadians from a war zone.  Most are already living back in Lebanon, inform them we won't evacuate you again and all social safty nets will be negated upon your leaving Canada and they will  be restored if you return to Canada as a tax payer for a period of five years.


----------



## CrazyCanuk4536056919 (1 Mar 2007)

Only just saw this thread, and found it very interesting.

I am a UK Citizen and a Candian Citizen..in that order. Why? Born in the UK, then moved to Canada at 5 years old. No disrespect to anyone, or anypalce on here. I hold both my home, in the UK, and my Home in Canada as equal. I love them both, and I am proud of both, and proud to have lived and be apart of both. If the government wants to remove dual citizenship, thats fine. I will still retain my Canadian Citizenship, obviously, my daughter and wife live here, and I work here. But I cannot denouce my British Citizenship. I still will alwyas hold a UK Birth Certificate, and therfore, will always be a British Citizen. That they cannot take that away from me. 

If they did go ahead with this, what would happen, to me, for instance? Born in the UK, citizenship by birth, yet hold Canadian Citizenship?


----------



## 1feral1 (1 Mar 2007)

Just a little bit of rambling on.......

Shyte, I feel like I am repeating myself, but here it goes....

In my instance, I left Canada for greener pastures in Jan 1995. I thought I'd return one day. I love Canada, and my home province of Saskatchewan. I am in touch with family and friends often, and still read the local Leader Post and Star Phoenix often on the Net.

I had recieved my Australian citizenship in May of 1997, and my last Cdn passport expired 6 yrs back. I solely travel on an Australian passport since then. It probably was not til after my Mom died in 2000 that I realised that I would not be coming back to reside. I do however have a plot in the local boneyard at the vill of Quill Lake, 19km straight east of Watson, so I know that one day I will be coming home for good ;D. 

For me, the gamble coming to Australia paid off, but after a dismal 5 yr marriage which started in Canada (1991-96 split in 1995, 9 months into Australia), I had to start over again, literally from scratch with nothing, and it was not easy being totally alone in a new country, but I made it work. I earned everything, and I am content where I am in my life. I feel I have excelled more in Australia then I ever could in Canada.

As for dual nationality, I am certainally NOT a Canadian by convenience, and I really do not intend to return to live, but anything is possible I guess, but I have a love for two countries, and although I feel close to Canada, by heart is in Australia. If it came down to choosing, I would keep my adopted country. Don't get me wrong or be offended, thats just how it is. I hope that day never comes. In Australia, I have earned the right to vote and have the same privilages as one born there, and I am bloody proud of my citizenship certificate, as of the many others I have, its the only one framed. I served Canada for over 18 yrs, and served Australia for 12 yrs, in peace and in war, recieving the Australian equivilant of the US CIB, so I feel I have earned my right in passage.

I have not paid tax in Canada since 1994, I don't know the Hockey or CFL anymore. Most of my family are dead. Many friends have moved on. I have no clue on politics both local, regional and federal, and when I was home last in 2004, I found myself daily on the INet reading Aussie newspapers. People move on, I've lost touch with many. The city of Regina evolves, and now I feel like a vistior when I am home. I guess I have become Australianised, ha! 

I do miss those prairies, but there is something about the cane fields around McKay on a hot humid January night, or the dusty endless outback near Winton, popping into The Gregory Hotel for a beer and dinkum pub lunch when its 45C. The Top End of the Northern Territory, Darwin and region is so isolated, yet inviting. One can't forget the crocs of the Adelaide River. Australia for me is a magical place, but it is not Misinippi north of LaRonge, or Banff at the Rockies, and those parts of Canada I often think of, and remember the days (and the mosquitos) of life there that I took for granted, now only relived in memory, or the odd holiday. I hope to be back again later this year.

What do I miss? Aside from family, friends, certain favourite foods etc, its things like a distant ski-doo on a crisp winter still night, or the honking of Canada geese migrating every fall. A call of a loon on a northern lake, a Saskatchewan summer sunset, or the crunching of snow as yo walk on it. The stale smell of beer in the Quill Lake Hotel, with a sizzling steak cooking in the steak pit, while CCR plays on the juke box in the background. Grid roads and the simple farm life, the hunting, just memories now. When I think of home, thats what comes to mind. 

Whatever Canada has to do to clean house will happen one day, but its a shame a bunch of thankless 'Canadians by convenience' have to spoil it for the rest of us who choose, yes choose to live overseas for whatever reasons. Why anyone would choose to live here in the Middle East over Canada is beyond me. Its the dark ages here, rife with centuries of violence, tribal hatred, and government corruption at all levels, and it always will be. Its just part of the culture. I've been in four Me countries. The UAE, Qatar, Kuwait and of course here in Iraq, and I'll see another one before our we RTA. There are no true rights or freedoms as we know it in the ME. I hate it, and more so now for sure.

Ramblings off,

Cheers from Baghdad,

Wes


----------



## Boxkicker (1 Mar 2007)

Sassy said:
			
		

> I agree, I have no issue with dual citizenship but I do have a problem when Canada as a country goes into a war torn country to evacuate people who haven't live in Canada for years.  Canada should inform dual citizens that you will  not be protected by Canada in the event of conflict or war.  If someone chooses to reside outside of Canada than you except the consequences of your decision not the Canadian Tax Payer.  In the for seeable future I can only think of Lebanon as another example where Canada has to rescue supposed Canadians from a war zone.  Most are already living back in Lebanon, inform them we won't evacuate you again and all social safty nets will be negated upon your leaving Canada and they will  be restored if you return to Canada as a tax payer for a period of five years.



  This is something I agree with whole heartedly, I am a dual citizen. I hold US and Canadian I have kept my US citizenship and complied with all US laws IE: Selective Service ACT, so I may continue to see my family there, with minimal hassles. I live here and serve here, I would not expect the government to save my but, if I went to a country that has been a war zone for the last 1,000 years.


----------



## CrazyCanuk4536056919 (2 Mar 2007)

> Whatever Canada has to do to clean house will happen one day, but its a shame a bunch of thankless *'Canadians by convenience*' *have to spoil it for the rest of us* who choose, yes choose to live overseas for whatever reasons.



+10


----------



## GAP (2 Mar 2007)

Another case of "Canada, I need help" !!

Egypt's `spy' case and Ottawa's duty
 TheStar.com March 02, 2007 
Article Link

When Canadian dual citizens get into serious trouble abroad, often in their countries of origin, Ottawa invariably faces public pressure to "do something" to bail them out.

That is happening in the case of Mohamed el-Attar, an Egyptian Canadian on trial in Egypt for espionage. They allege he is a confessed Israeli spy who worked out of a Toronto bank, gathering data with three other Israeli spies on Arabs and Muslims here and trying to recruit them. They built a detailed case and arrested him Jan. 1 in Cairo while on a family visit.

During a chaotic courtroom hearing this week, Attar appealed directly to the Canadian government to help him out. He shouted that he had been tortured into giving a false confession, and that he is innocent. The Israelis say they don't know him. His current Egyptian lawyer is begging for more time to prepare a defence. A previous lawyer withdrew, saying he could not defend a traitor. If convicted, he faces 25 years at hard labour.

While Canadian officials are rightly treating Egypt's claims with skepticism, the sad truth is they can offer only limited help, given Attar's dual citizenship. The Egyptians view him as one of their own.

Canada's security services, meanwhile, have been left scrambling to determine whether the Israelis and Egyptians indeed have been spying here, whether Canadian banking data has been compromised, and whether Attar is the innocent he claims to be. It is a mess.

And Attar is not unique. Huseyin Celil, a Chinese Canadian, is being held in China on suspicion of terrorism. He, too, says he was tortured. A Chinese Canadian businessman, Jimmy Chen Jian Yuan, is being held following a business dispute. Iranian Canadian photojournalist Zara Kazemi was murdered in an Iranian prison four years ago after being detained at a student protest. Another Iranian Canadian, scholar Ramin Jahanbegloo, was held last year on suspicion of espionage before being released
More on link


----------



## TCBF (3 Mar 2007)

We need a new policy: How about in the case of Dual Citizens, your 'New" Canadian Citizenship takes second place to your old country citizenship when you are back in old country?

Why not?

In other words, if you go back to Zamboniland and get in trouble, the Zambonis are responsible for looking after you.  After all, you went back on your own, right?

All 'Duals' should have to sign a statement saying that, when out of Canada, the country that they are closest to will look after their intersts.  If you are in Mexico, Canada takes care of you.  If you are in the Smegman Peoples Republic, Zamboniland looks after you.

Problem solved.


----------



## orange.paint (3 Mar 2007)

I find that most people who complain about the dual-citizenship are the same folk who say "My great-great granddad was the first person in Pembroke Ontario" or"My family has been here since 1822."

Lets face it unless your a Canadian Native (Innu,micmac etc) your family were immigrants.Why did they come here?For a better life for themselves and sometimes their families.To escape the law.To make money to one day return home to start a better life.Some went back "home" some remained and reproduced you a "Canadian."

So what is the difference of a Lebanese person coming here to gain enough money to improve his family life back "home"?Come here work in a restaurant and save enough money to improve his social standing in his home country.To maybe buy a business back home and return.I personally don't see the problem with that.

For some strange reason if it was a man from Devon,white I think things would be different.What about the English guys who come here for work and then return home to retire?What about England got attacked?Would we feel the same way about bringing these people back "home"?As they are dual citizens?I am willing to say no.As they speak English and are for the most part white.

We were discussing immigrants at work.Some people were getting quite colourful in the discussion until I said my wife's family were all landed Immigrants from Wales.
First response:Well that's different.

I think sometimes people just have to put themselves in other peoples shoes.Would you want your family who is living in England rescued?(Of course there will be some hardliners on this site who say "No there not Canadian anymore IMHO!"If you think that lightly of your family,your outlook on humanity is proably lacking as well.

I have family and friends working all around the world.I would want Canada to step up and help.

BTW I'm English,white and my family had been in Newfoundland since late 1800's,and Canadian since 1949.

Just a point,as for them coming here to work and going back home....look at Newfies.
What do they do?Go to the "mainland" work to make money and move back to their home.They are benefiting off places like Alberta what is the difference?


----------



## TCBF (3 Mar 2007)

I agree with you to a point.

When my people got off the boat, we may not have been considered a part of high society.  The vast majority of immigrants today fall into the same category.  They also work hard and do well. 

I do have a problem with those who view Canadian citizenship as a passport of convienience, just so they can return to their native land and commit crimes, knowing that Canada will ensure they don't get executed.

Issues of loyalty are not allways so black and white.  It is impossible during a 'war on terror' to intern 'Enemy Aliens' for example.  Even though some may desparately need interning.

I also think we should draw the line at people who are in there old country when an emergency occurs, then expect us to drop everything and fund their extraction.  Why?  They have citizenship there, they can ride it out.  Did Zamboniland offer to extract all of the Zambonis from Quebec during the ice storm? Why not.

Methinks we are too soft.  There should be limits to dual allegiance, and if Canada becomes one's second favourite side during a conflict, one should either leave or submit to internment.

But: That does not mean we cannot be forgiving.  When the war is over - it's over.  Look at all of the Germans who came to Canada after WW2, many had fought the allies in the war.  They then came to Canada and helped with the further development  of this country.


----------



## riggermade (3 Mar 2007)

CrazyCanuk in a TrailerPark said:
			
		

> Only just saw this thread, and found it very interesting.
> 
> I am a UK Citizen and a Candian Citizen..in that order. Why? Born in the UK, then moved to Canada at 5 years old. No disrespect to anyone, or anypalce on here. I hold both my home, in the UK, and my Home in Canada as equal. I love them both, and I am proud of both, and proud to have lived and be apart of both. If the government wants to remove dual citizenship, thats fine. I will still retain my Canadian Citizenship, obviously, my daughter and wife live here, and I work here. But I cannot denouce my British Citizenship. I still will alwyas hold a UK Birth Certificate, and therfore, will always be a British Citizen. That they cannot take that away from me.
> 
> ...


----------



## Avor (10 Mar 2007)

Just a through, allow duel citizenship from countries Canada is allies with or on very good terms. ie- Commonwealth and NATO 

We know the people of UK are our friends, and always will be. But the guy comming from Iran, we're on shaky terms with Iran at best. So if an Iranian wants to be Canadian, make him pick on nationality, to prove loyaly to this country.

I know somebody is going to jump up and sceam racist, but it's not about that, it's about our traditional and current allies. Think of it like this, you have something realy good, you share it with your friends and family first, not strangers.


----------



## Sassy (10 Mar 2007)

TCBF said:
			
		

> We need a new policy: How about in the case of Dual Citizens, your 'New" Canadian Citizenship takes second place to your old country citizenship when you are back in old country?
> 
> Why not?
> 
> ...



I like the idea principle, excluding prisoners of politics i.e. journalist and reporters.

Avor I like your ideas as well, but let us be honest the left/left in Canada would go ballistic if a system such as you described were implimented.  I can hear the screams of outrage in my head.


----------



## 1feral1 (11 Mar 2007)

Sassy said:
			
		

> I  I can hear the screams of outrage in my head.



Too right!

Bloody hell, I can hear those 'lefty snivel libertarian' screams from Canuckistan all the way up the Tigris here in Baghdaddy!

Seriously, something will only happen if we (Canadians) get our nose seriously bloodied on our own soil, and then it will be too little too late, but wait, then they'll cry, moan and drip and say 'why did you not do something  : .

The left are dangerous.



Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Avor (11 Mar 2007)

Don't get to caught up on the "Left" and "Right" of politics, I honestly gave up a long time ago. People are all over the place with their values, it just doenst matter.

The kind of people who would dislike what I just recomended would be those overly policitaly correct bastards, and those people who call everybody but themselves a racist.

I just say and do things that offend people across the whole specrum  ;D


----------

