# Log Officer and Supply Tech



## dapachec (24 Sep 2013)

Hi guys,

I'm currently in the process of filling out my application for the reserves, and my choices were as follows:
Logistics Officer
Vehicle Technician
Supply Technician


Those were my selections as I'm studying in Supply Chain Management at university, and I've had previous training as an auto mechanic.

However, spots for vehicle tech and log officer have filled up for the fiscal year. I spoke with the Recruiting Warrant Officer in the region who stated that those positions may not even be available next year as they are not in very high demand on the reserve side. Since I will have a university degree though, he did recommend *Artillery, Armour, or Infantry Officer positions.*

So, my question: Would it be easier to transfer from another Officer position to Log Officer or from NCM Supply Tech to Log(Is this a natural career progression) officer, given that the trade becomes available. Or should I just wait and enter directly as a Log.

I still think Supply Tech would be an interesting position without having to move to Log Officer, though. Are there opportunities for leadership staying as an NCM?

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for reading.


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## GreenMarine (24 Sep 2013)

Speaking as a Cpl Supply Tech, Commissioning from the Ranks is available for us at the QL6 level (MCpl/Sgt) to LogO.

As your Studying Supply Chain Management I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get in as a LogO the recruiters are probably just trying to fill some Combat arms quota.  If your grades and references are high then you'll get what you want provided you have the degree req'd for the job.

LogOs vary in there jobs from Foods, to finance, admin, Supply, Ammo and Transport, etc.

Snr Supply Techs have some leadership roles but at the top they get blended into the rest of the CPO1/CWO mix and require Senior Courses. Secession programs start as low as MCPL, and become more noticeable as you progress in rank. By the MWO/CPO2 level there are few jobs that keep you in trade as you'll be more likely working an acting position or doing platoon/company admin as a SgtMjr or Department Coordinator.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Sep 2013)

dapachec said:
			
		

> Are there opportunities for leadership staying as an NCM?



For the record, not only Officers are 'leaders'.  Corporal is a Junior NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) rank and leadership experience and training can and has started at that level for many many years.   Junior Officers are mentored and developed not only by more senior/experienced Officers, but also by the Jnr NCOs (Cpls and MCpls), Senior NCOs (Sgts) and Warrant Officers(WO, MWO and CWO) that they work with.

Just something to keep in mind....


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## dapachec (24 Sep 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> For the record, not only Officers are 'leaders'.  Corporal is a Junior NCO (Non-Commissioned Officer) rank and leadership experience and training can and has started at that level for many many years.   Junior Officers are mentored and developed not only by more senior/experienced Officers, but also by the Jnr NCOs (Cpls and MCpls), Senior NCOs (Sgts) and Warrant Officers(WO, MWO and CWO) that they work with.
> 
> Just something to keep in mind....



I guess I meant more within the supply tech trade, didn't clarify that(ie managing warehouse inventory, personnel, etc). Wasn't clear about that.


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## Eye In The Sky (24 Sep 2013)

Supp Tech NCOs and WOs are also 'leaders'.  Different ways and levels but leaders just the same.


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## Pusser (25 Sep 2013)

Based on my observations (from over 30 years of service, over 20 as a Log officer) it is easier to change occupations (e.g. artillery officer to log officer) than to achieve a commission as an NCM.

A large part of gaining a commission is to prove your suitability to function as an officer (i.e. it's not just about your technical skills or degree applicability to the chosen occupation).  As a serving NCM, they have your service record and the recommendations of your chain of command upon which to base your perceived potential.  The down side of this in my experience is that the "system" is much more critical of what is frankly, a proven commodity and they almost seem to be looking for reasons NOT to commission somebody.  Admittedly, I'm a tad jaded as I once watched a top-notch petty officer leave the CF because he felt the mob no longer offered him the challenge he was seeking.  In my view, he would have made an amazing Log Officer, but the Personnel Selection Officer (PSO) who assessed him didn't see it that way.  Oddly enough, PSOs are not directly involved in officer candidate selection at the recruiting centre.   In short, my observations over the years have been that it is much harder for a serving NCM to prove his/her suitability for commissioning than for an unknown entity off the street.

Occupation transfers between officer occupations seem in some ways to be a little easier.  You don't have to prove your potential as an officer.  You just have to prove your professional suitability, which seems easier.

Having said all of this and THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT:  *ANY change to your career path will be difficult.*  In order to move from one occupation to another, the management authority of the old one has to let you go and the management authority of the new one has to accept you.  The reason you are being steered toward the combat arms is because that is where the shortages are.  Those shortages may exist for some time.  If an occupation is critically short, they won't let you leave.  Furthermore, occupations only want to accept the ones with the most potential.  No one wants to take on any one else's cast-offs, so if you are not doing well in your current occupation, the chances of another one accepting you are slim.  So, in spite of the fact that it is difficult to do something well if you don't enjoy it, if you want to change, you will have to.

In summary, if you are honestly interested in doing any one of the occupations they are offering you and you can accept that you could end up doing them for a long time (including your entire career), then go for it, but be careful about treating them as simply a stepping stone to what you really want.  Making changes later is possible, but not without hurdles that can sometimes be significant.


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## OblivionKnight (29 Sep 2013)

I'm just wondering, if you are able to choose the combat arms officer trades, does that mean they have opened up? 



			
				dapachec said:
			
		

> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm currently in the process of filling out my application for the reserves, and my choices were as follows:
> Logistics Officer
> ...


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## dapachec (30 Sep 2013)

Thanks for your input Pusser. Considering the fact that combat roles seem to have more of a shortage, I think it may be extremely difficult to move from a position that is in demand. I've just been informed that artillery is taken, which I was most interested in from the combat roles. 

If I was unable to move to Logistics Officer, I think Supply Tech would be more rewarding for me than the other combat roles. Just personal preference I suppose.

Thanks.



			
				OblivionKnight said:
			
		

> I'm just wondering, if you are able to choose the combat arms officer trades, does that mean they have opened up?



From what I was told, the fiscal year is comprised of three recruiting phases, where applications of a certain type are prioritized. Phase A involves mostly the recruiting for administration positions, while Phase B looks at other technical non combat roles. Phase C emphasizes artillery, armour,  infantry, and combat engineering positions.


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## OblivionKnight (30 Sep 2013)

Oh I see, I did not know that. Thanks for the information. 



			
				dapachec said:
			
		

> From what I was told, the fiscal year is comprised of three recruiting phases, where applications of a certain type are prioritized. Phase A involves mostly the recruiting for administration positions, while Phase B looks at other technical non combat roles. Phase C emphasizes artillery, armour,  infantry, and combat engineering positions.


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## DAA (30 Sep 2013)

dapachec said:
			
		

> From what I was told, the fiscal year is comprised of three recruiting phases, where applications of a certain type are prioritized. Phase A involves mostly the recruiting for administration positions, while Phase B looks at other technical non combat roles. Phase C emphasizes artillery, armour,  infantry, and combat engineering positions.



Never heard this one before........wonder what creative mind made this story up?      :facepalm:


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## dapachec (1 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Never heard this one before........wonder what creative mind made this story up?      :facepalm:



They presented a document at the unit showing this information :/


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## armyvern (2 Oct 2013)

GreenMarine said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Snr Supply Techs have some leadership roles but at the top they get blended into the rest of the CPO1/CWO mix and require Senior Courses. Secession programs start as low as MCPL, and become more noticeable as you progress in rank. By the MWO/CPO2 level there are few jobs that keep you in trade as you'll be more likely working an acting position or doing platoon/company admin as a SgtMjr or Department Coordinator.



I just want to clarify what you've stated for Sup Techs and Succession Planning:

By far, the great majority of Sup Tech MWOs are employed in Sup Tech posns that directly relate to the trade (Supply Managers etc; -  If you want proof of that, open up your EMAA and scan the employment positions list for that rank level).  A few Sup Techs are then streamed into *Succession* Planning at the MWO rank and the keen WOs become watched.  Those MWOs who are deemed suitable for Succession Planning posns are then sent out the Succession Planning Proforma that they must fill in and submit to national --- they have the option of signing "on" or not (and to "which" SP stream they'd be interested in).  If they sign "on", their files are sent to the applicable Succession Boards when they sit (in our trade there is Trade Succession Plan, Logistics Branch Succession Plan, Army/RCN/RCAF Succession Plan or Pan-CF Succession Plan.

Choosing one does not mean that one will be found suitable for the stream you've chosen nor does being found suitable for a stream mean that you will be _selected_ into it.   If Super Sup Tech A decides he wants to go Cdn Army Succession Planning Stream, national may very well agree that he is a super sup tech, but will make a shitty CSM or RSM, Cox'n etc --- In his case, Army/RCN Succession Planning is probably a no-go as his file (ie:  him) would not be selected from the files at the selection boards (if anyone even bothered to send it to the Cdn Army/RCN selection boards). He, being super sup tech would most likely find himself in trade stream and possibly Log Br planning if his diversity of experience within the purple Br (ie - not one environment his whole career) is found to be sufficient.

Snr Sup techs are definitely employed "in trade" as they are dealing with Sup techs careers. Admin yes, but most certainly directly trade related/employed.  Most Snr Techs are double-hatted - ie:  CSM/Snr Tech, RQ/Snr Tech etc.

In short, the percentage of MWO & above Sup techs employed in Succession Plan Streams is only a small percentage of them and that is only after national identifies them, they sign on, and then actually make it through the applicable selection boards and become "chosen" for one of the SP posns. And yes, if they chose "Cdn Army SP" and their file goes to selection board for that stream, they then must compete against every Cdn Army MWO of every Cdn Army Trade (or purple Army wearing uniform types) whose files are at that board for whatever posns are being filled.


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## dapachec (5 Oct 2013)

If spots are filled in the army reserve, is it possible they are open in another environment? Or are applications normally processed undee one quota?


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## DAA (7 Oct 2013)

dapachec said:
			
		

> If spots are filled in the army reserve, is it possible they are open in another environment? Or are applications normally processed undee one quota?



All "primary reserve" positions are managed at the Unit level.  So you would need to contact each unit individually.


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## l.viita (14 Oct 2013)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Based on my observations (from over 30 years of service, over 20 as a Log officer) it is easier to change occupations (e.g. artillery officer to log officer) than to achieve a commission as an NCM.
> 
> A large part of gaining a commission is to prove your suitability to function as an officer (i.e. it's not just about your technical skills or degree applicability to the chosen occupation).  As a serving NCM, they have your service record and the recommendations of your chain of command upon which to base your perceived potential.  The down side of this in my experience is that the "system" is much more critical of what is frankly, a proven commodity and they almost seem to be looking for reasons NOT to commission somebody.  Admittedly, I'm a tad jaded as I once watched a top-notch petty officer leave the CF because he felt the mob no longer offered him the challenge he was seeking.  In my view, he would have made an amazing Log Officer, but the Personnel Selection Officer (PSO) who assessed him didn't see it that way.  Oddly enough, PSOs are not directly involved in officer candidate selection at the recruiting centre.   In short, my observations over the years have been that it is much harder for a serving NCM to prove his/her suitability for commissioning than for an unknown entity off the street.
> 
> ...




Thanks a lot for the input! 

I originally applied as a Logistic Officer in the reserve here in Quebec City, but, although many recruiters told me I had the degree it took for the job, my application was judged not competitive enough. I could still leave my trade choices as it was, but my application as a Log Officer would have been set in second choice rather than another applicant who studied a whole 3 years in management (I studied 2 years communications and 1 year management, so it's a bidisciplinary bachelor degree) (not sure that's the correct term in English for baccalauréat par cumul or baccalauréat pluridisciplinaire :/ sorry).

I was kind of hoping I'd still have chances to becoming a Log Officer if I applied as a supply tech.


Since there has been lot of helpful answers here, maybe someone could clarify this for me? What if, I do get a job offer as a supply tech in the reserve, and complete a master degree in business management (MBA), would I be able to apply as a Log Officer in the regular?
Is it something that could be possible?


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## mariomike (14 Oct 2013)

l.viita said:
			
		

> What if, I do get a job offer as a supply tech in the reserve, and complete a master degree in business management (MBA), would I be able to apply as a Log Officer in the regular?



Changing from reserve to regular force application  
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/109809.0


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## l.viita (14 Oct 2013)

mariomike said:
			
		

> Changing from reserve to regular force application
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/109809.0



I don't know if it's me but I did not find an answer on the subject, and there are only 3 posts on the link you just sent on wether you can apply for the Reserve and Regular at the same time, which is not what I want to do. I want to work with the reserve for the time being, while completing a MBA, and if I like it, I would like to apply in the Regular, but have been wondering if it's possible to apply as a Log Officer even if I'd be a supply tech (given I get the job).


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## mariomike (14 Oct 2013)

l.viita said:
			
		

> I want to work with the reserve for the time being, while completing a MBA, and if I like it, I would like to apply in the Regular, but have been wondering if it's possible to apply as a Log Officer even if I'd be a supply tech (given I get the job).



Sorry, I misunderstood your original post. It was not clear ( to me ) that you intended to accept the Reserve NCM job offer. 

It said, "What if, I do get a job offer as a supply tech in the reserve, and complete a master degree in business management (MBA), would I be able to apply as a Log Officer in the regular?"

Component Transfers (Reserve to Regular): Q&A
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/12797.0.html

From Reserves(NCM) to Regular Force(Officer)
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/65253.0/nowap.html


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## dapachec (17 Oct 2013)

I did some digging, and found the following information regarding different ways to change to Officer from an NCM trade.



> 1) CFR-Commision From the Ranks, you should be min Sgt but will accept outstanding MCpl's
> 2) CEOTP- Continuing Education Officer Training Program, you only need to be a Cpl, and have to finish a degree (on your own time) before your IE is finished
> 3) UTPNCM- University Training Plan NCM, Cpl's and above, apply to go to school and then trade training in summer etc, kinda like ROTP, can go to civi or RMC
> 4) SCP- Special Commissioning Plan, Cpl's and up, once you have a degree (we see more people coming in with degree's now) then you can go Officer after you do the NCM time.


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## DAA (17 Oct 2013)

dapachec said:
			
		

> I did some digging, and found the following information regarding different ways to change to Officer from an NCM trade.



Actually, based on todays standards and your quote.....

CFR - you must be "nominated" by your Chain of Command and must be QL6A qualified in your present occupation
CEOTP - currently NOT available this year and not likely in the future
UTPNCM - always an available option for NCM's who don't currently possess an under-grad degree
SCP - currently OPEN, all you need to do is meet the requirements and submit an application

So if you originally applied DEO, didn't get selected, took the NCM route, got accepted and are now looking to go officer.....competition is tough!  Not to mention, the occupations are very limited.


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## dapachec (19 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Actually, based on todays standards and your quote.....
> 
> CFR - you must be "nominated" by your Chain of Command and must be QL6A qualified in your present occupation
> CEOTP - currently NOT available this year and not likely in the future
> ...



Great, thanks for the update.

How exactly do the QL courses work? After your initial trade training, is it simply the amount of courses you choose from the list below(Specialty/Advanced)? IE completing 6 courses on top of your initial training would have you qualified as a QL6A?


SPECIALTY TRAINING
Supply Technicians may be offered the opportunity to develop specialized skills through formal courses and on-the-job training, including:

Instructional Techniques
Parachute Packer/Rigger
Control of Hazardous Material
Hazardous Material Packaging
Storage and Packaging
Special Packaging

Top of page
ADVANCED TRAINING
As they progress in their career, Supply Technicians who demonstrate the required ability and potential will be offered advanced training. Available courses include:

Military Contracts
Internal Audit Procedures
Personnel Management
Material Management
Budget Management
Business Planning Process


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## l.viita (19 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Actually, based on todays standards and your quote.....
> 
> CFR - you must be "nominated" by your Chain of Command and must be QL6A qualified in your present occupation
> CEOTP - currently NOT available this year and not likely in the future
> ...




I also saw those informations, but wasn't sure if it applied to switching from NCM reserve to officer in the regular.

I do have a bachelor degree already, so I guess in my case that would be with the SCP program.  I still could have left my application for the officer trade but as there was no urgent need my application wasn't going to be enough compared to someone who had 3 years in administration program, while I only had 1 out of 3. 


I took a chance and asked the captain who interviewed me the other day. I'm not sure if he is 100% sure of what he said (cause no one is anyway in recruiting centers). But if for example I complete a M.B.A. (master degree in business administration) while serving as a NCM supply tech, I could transfer in the regular and apply as a logistic officer. 

Honestly, I don't want to believe it as I've believed many things being said to me in recruiting centers while they were bullshit and nobody gave me the same answer.

It's a bit frustrating to see many people can't answer you with the correct answer, but I will deal with it. 


I just need to do something with my life and feel useful at something. I think that giving my time for my country is a good way to do so.


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## AmmoTech90 (19 Oct 2013)

dapachec said:
			
		

> Great, thanks for the update.
> 
> How exactly do the QL courses work? After your initial trade training, is it simply the amount of courses you choose from the list below(Specialty/Advanced)? IE completing 6 courses on top of your initial training would have you qualified as a QL6A?



You do a QL3 course immediately after basic.  After 2 to 4 years at your unit being employed as a supply tech you should have completed an on the job training package.  Once you have done that you can go on your QL5 course.  Around this time you should also be hitting the 4 year mark and are then eligible for promotion to Cpl (with a valid medical and CO's concurrence).

Sometime after this you may be selected to attend a Primary Leadership Qualification course.  This qualification (along with medical/merit board standing) allows you to be appointed a substantive Master Corporal.  After this you could go a QL6A course.  So you are looking at 6 years minimum, maybe up to 20 years, maybe never if you don't get past Cpl.

And you don't select courses, you either get sent on them, or in some case can volunteer (parachute packer for example) and perhaps be selected by your chain of command.  Most of the speciality training you mentioned is carried out at the Pte to MCpl level.  It is quite possible to hold all the qualification you mentioned as a MCpl.  The advanced training you mentioned is usually at the Sgt plus level.


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## AmmoTech90 (19 Oct 2013)

l.viita said:
			
		

> I also saw those informations, but wasn't sure if it applied to switching from NCM reserve to officer in the regular.



Yes you can do it

That is all the answer you need now seeing as you plan on joining the reserves, getting trained, and getting an MBA before doing that you have 3 to 4 years to figure out the nuts and bolts.  Focus on getting through basic first is that is your plan.


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## l.viita (19 Oct 2013)

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> Yes you can do it
> 
> That is all the answer you need now seeing as you plan on joining the reserves, getting trained, and getting an MBA before doing that you have 3 to 4 years to figure out the nuts and bolts.  Focus on getting through basic first is that is your plan.



Alright! Thanks for the advice!  

I still need to do the physical test and further examinations for visual and auditory acuity.

My only fear is the auditory acuity. I know I have a slight hearing loss, but nothing scary. The most frustrating part is that I have had a tinnitus for a couple of days already (also during the small audigram during medical, which didn't exactly help my cause).


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