# Pay deduction for tour kit not returned...



## theoldyoungguy (15 Oct 2009)

OK, long story short. I was on tour in 2008. I returned the bulk of the kit right after I came home. The remaining kit I have, stores is now asking me to return it. I have 0 issue returning the kit, my problem is I work during the week(as I am a reservist) and cannot make it into stores during regular hours. I, as well as others, have been informed that if said kit is not returned by end of october, base clothing will begin to deduct the cost of the items from our pay. So my problem lies in the fact that I cannot return this kit when they need me too. Can clothing stores actually deduct my pay? Penelizing us reservists who physically cannot return this kit in the timeframe stores is saying is completely unfair, in my mind.

I will return the kit as soon as I have a day off, but that might be months away considering I have already used up my vacation time for this year. Also, I currently am in a financial situation where having the little pay I do get from parading, on wednesday nights, being deducted would put me in a tough position.


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## Roy Harding (15 Oct 2009)

Can you get it to a trusted friend, or someone in your CofC who could take care of it for you?

I assume the kit needs to be returned to Base Clothing.  Can you arrange to turn it in to your unit QM on a Wednesday night, and have them do the necessary paperwork?

Can your CofC intercede on your behalf?

Yes - Supply can do that.  Whether it's "fair" in your case or not is immaterial - they can do it.


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## Belaj (15 Oct 2009)

patriot1112 said:
			
		

> cannot make it into stores during regular hours



Valcartier's clothing store is open every other Tuesday evening. I would assume other bases have a similar arrangement.


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## MikeL (15 Oct 2009)

Belaj, not all Base Clothing stores do that.


patriot1112, you were on tour in 2008 an it's now nearing the end of 2009.. you've had a lot of time to turn the kit in. Just because you've now been given a deadline isn't "unfair". I dunno about you, but when we got back after tour we had a list of all the kit that had to be returned to clothing stores.

As for getting someone else to turn the kit in, not sure if that would work as you would have to sign the clothing docs. Dunno if your Reserve unit CQ can take care of this but it'll be something to look into an find out.

Also, have you asked your civilian employer if you can take an afternoon off or is it possible to say take a longer lunch to return the kit?


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## McG (15 Oct 2009)

patriot1112 said:
			
		

> Can clothing stores actually deduct my pay? Penelizing us reservists who physically cannot return this kit in the timeframe stores is saying is completely unfair, in my mind.


It is possible.  If you should have known any of this kit was due to be returned, then this is partially your fault.  Doesn't really matter if it is or is not though. Here is what you need to do:

Immediately contact your clothing stores and request more time or if there is away for them to accomodate your schedual.  Advise them that, because of tight timelines, if you don't recieve a prompt & satisfactory answer that you will have no recourse but to redress the situation.

At the same time inform your chain of command of your intent to redress, and then staff a formal redress as soon as possible (don't wait for them to try and take the pay if you & your CoC cannot negotiate a solution).  In the redress emphasis the unreasonableness of an organization with bankers' hours to place this demand on Class A reservists with no accommodation for schedule and with such tight time lines  ... argue that the approach lacks procedural fairness in that you are not given the flexibility to meet the demand nor the option to make representations for your specific case to be considered.  You want to return the kit, but "they" are making it difficult.

... I do stress to try the negotiated path first (you and/or your CoC talk to clothing stores).


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## theoldyoungguy (15 Oct 2009)

I was told at the time all the kit that needed to be returned, was returned. It has been quit some time, however, if Im not privvy to the information needed to return the kit, I hardly see how this should be made into a financial issue for me, but it is being made as such. But none the less, I guess I will be taking time off work to do this. I just wanted to know if there were other better ways to go about doing this, and if stores couldn't take my money then I would of course have waited until the new year when I could take paid time off.


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## theoldyoungguy (15 Oct 2009)

@MCG, solid advice.

I will follow up as you have suggested. Thank you


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## Pusser (16 Oct 2009)

Does your Reserve Unit have a Stores Section?  If so, you can return it there and your unit Sup Tech (probably with the help of the RSS) can get it returned to the Base.  Don't let them tell you they can't.  Yes they can (there's a big difference between "can't" and "I don't feel like getting off my lazy ass and actually reading, understanding and following my branch motto of "Service Second to None").  Just make sure you get a receipt (you're entitled to that).

As for whether they can deduct money from your pay, yes the CF can, but Base Supply cannot.  Deductions from your pay are not as simple as a Sup Tech waving a magic wand.  The Chain of Command has to approve it and you have to be given a chance to answer it.  You have the right object on the grounds that such a deduction is unwarranted or excessive (QR&O Chapt 38 refers).  If you object, the CO cannot order you to pay a dime (it has to go to higher levels and even the CDS can only order a maximum deduction of $250 - this nonsense should stop long before it gets to him).  Furthermore, Chapt 38 is pretty clear that your kit would have to be lost or destroyed AND that it was due to your negligence.  If it's sitting in your house, none of those criteria apply.

My recommendation is that you read the QR&O (available here:http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-01/doc/chapter-chapitre-038.pdf - unfortunately it's a bit convoluted) and then engage your unit Chain of Command to help you sort this out.  There is no reason folks can't be reasonable about this and either cater to your schedule or wait until you have a free moment.  For that matter, if you end up returning the kit at any time other than your regular parade night, you should be able to sign a pay sheet and get paid for it.

I'm a loggie and I hate other loggies on power trips pulling crap like this!  It gives us all a bad name.


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## armyvern (16 Oct 2009)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Does your Reserve Unit have a Stores Section?  If so, you can return it there and your unit Sup Tech (probably with the help of the RSS) can get it returned to the Base.  Don't let them tell you they can't.  Yes they can (there's a big difference between "can't" and "I don't feel like getting off my lazy ass and actually reading, understanding and following my branch motto of "Service Second to None").  Just make sure you get a receipt (you're entitled to that).
> 
> As for whether they can deduct money from your pay, yes the CF can, but Base Supply cannot.  Deductions from your pay are not as simple as a Sup Tech waving a magic wand.  The Chain of Command has to approve it and you have to be given a chance to answer it.  You have the right object on the grounds that such a deduction is unwarranted or excessive (QR&O Chapt 38 refers).  If you object, the CO cannot order you to pay a dime (it has to go to higher levels and even the CDS can only order a maximum deduction of $250 - this nonsense should stop long before it gets to him).  Furthermore, Chapt 38 is pretty clear that your kit would have to be lost or destroyed AND that it was due to your negligence.  If it's sitting in your house, none of those criteria apply.
> 
> ...



Wow. You ceratinly read a lot into a post that wasn't stated in it.

As for the QR&O - it's all good.

So is the scale of entitlement for Operational deployment kit. As part of the AAR and scale for those returning from Theatre of Operations, there is a requirement to return all mission specific kit "within 30 days of repatriation". Most Units have this return process built right into the post deployment AAR ... I highly suspect that is when the OP returned "most" of his deployment kit. Now, member obviously can't turn in any deployment kit that was sent back via UAB during this AAR process ... but he is fully expected to return it ASAP after receiving his UAB. After one year has lapsed, we start running hasteners ... I suspect, that in this case, it has been over one year since his return and that hasteners to return have been issued. He currently has no time off left from work - apparently, over the course of the last year, has not had time enough to get into clothing stores (or ResF Unit QM as a _very_ last resort - they are not authorized by reg to hold deployment kit) to make the return.

I also suspect that Supply didn't tell him that "they personally" would make an Admin deduction against his pay, but, after a year, they most certainly probably advised him, IAW regulations, that they would begin Admin action to have recovery action taken should the kit NOT get returned by date "X" - it's already long overdue. I certainly would have.

One year. Not a 1/2 hour? No leave left. Fine. But, one certainly had time off over the past year no?

For the OP: Have you advised your RQ staff of your predicament? If not, I suggest doing so forthwith so that they can contact the supporting base in question to advise them of the circumstances and so that they can seek authority to process the return of said deployment kit to their location with a further redirection of that kit by them to the supporting base.

If no go, send me a PM with your location and I'll find you a contact pers at the supporting base ... and will assist with explaining your sit.


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## ajp (16 Oct 2009)

"Immediately contact your clothing stores and request more time or if there is away for them to accomodate your schedual.  Advise them that, because of tight timelines, if you don't recieve a prompt & satisfactory answer that you will have no recourse but to redress the situation."

I wouldn't threaten redress on an issue that appears to have taken a year.  You do need to talk to your CoC and get the matter resolved.  Formal redress can go both ways, and if you are at fault you could be dealt with accordingly.  It has been a year.


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## kincanucks (16 Oct 2009)

Ever try thinking for yourself?


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## theoldyoungguy (16 Oct 2009)

I freely admit I had time to do this over the past year. However If I don't know this kit needs to be returned than I hardly see how I should be frowned upon for it. I did not parade all that much due to work so said information would not have made its way to me. I was told previously the little kit I had left was not needed to be returned, hence I never worried about it. Were talking a couple small items here, and stuff that i previously thought were next of skin items and disposable. But now the situation is as was explained and I must deal with the reprocussions of the decisions of others. 

Ill take a couple hours off from work to get this done and lose the pay. I'm not gonna become an administrative burden nor pi$$ people off. I know the RQ staff very well and they are extremely busy and hard working. I'm not gonna comment on it further as I will just be griping and moaning about the system. It is what it is, it's just infuriating when decisions like this are made and paint all of us with the same brush of perceived negligence. A lot of this type of stuff would never happen in the civi world. Its the same type of BS that runs A LOT of experience out the door post tour.  

I was more so thinking as to whether or not I could get an extension on returning the kit and if they actually could deduct my pay, I really don't want to trouble other people, who are already busy, with my issues.

I thank you all for your advice though, it is much appreciated.


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## Michael OLeary (16 Oct 2009)

patriot1112 said:
			
		

> OK, long story short. I was on tour in 2008. I returned the bulk of the kit right after I came home. The remaining kit I have, stores is now asking me to return it.





			
				patriot1112 said:
			
		

> I freely admit I had time to do this over the past year. However If I don't know this kit needs to be returned than I hardly see how I should be frowned upon for it.



I am confused.  Seldom is financial recovery action mentioned the very first time kit returns are requested.

1. When were you told these items of kit you have at home were to be returned?  When was the requirement provided to the unit, in case you own infrequent parading resulted in a delay of you personally getting that information?

2. When were you informed that financial recovery might be taken if the kit wasn't returned?


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## theoldyoungguy (16 Oct 2009)

@ Michael O'Leary

1. Apparently we were supposed to retun this kit sometime ago, however because I was told at base supply Im good to go, I assumed I was squared away and not needed to return the little bit I have left. I assumed base was trying to get a hold of those individuals that still had all of their kit. However I only heard about this about a month and a half ago.

2. I was only informed about the financial recovery last week


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## Michael OLeary (16 Oct 2009)

patriot1112 said:
			
		

> @ Michael O'Leary
> 
> 1. Apparently we were supposed to retun this kit sometime ago, however because I was told at base supply Im good to go, I assumed I was squared away and not needed to return the little bit I have left. I assumed base was trying to get a hold of those individuals that still had all of their kit. However I only heard about this about a month and a half ago.
> 
> 2. I was only informed about the financial recovery last week



So, after you realized their communications did actually include you (despite what you claim to have been told previously), you still ignored it for almost a month and a half before being warned of the possibility of financial deductions.  And only now that there may be financial implications are you seeking a solution other than just turning in the kit as requested?

Edit to add:

What kit, exactly, are you talking about?  If you identify it, it will help to clarify what you should have known about requirements to turn it in on return.


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## Chanada (16 Oct 2009)

So...QM is basically open from now to the end of Oct...during the day and depending on where you parade some evenings and weekends...and you just have to find an hour to get there...Turn in the kit so it can be used on the next tour. This is the Army in  2009...and it is a heck of a lot easier to do these days than it once was!    Just do it...You still have two weeks to find 20 minutes!


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## Roy Harding (17 Oct 2009)

patriot1112 said:
			
		

> ... A lot of this type of stuff would never happen in the civi world. ...



I've been a civi for 5 years now, and I take exception to this particular remark.  However, we'll leave that for another time.

Hopefully, you can make arrangements to get the kit back without losing time at work, AND without incurring the admin deduction previously discussed.  Of course, if you're not parading, you don't have any pay for the deduction to be made from - so I can't see that you'd take a financial hit for a while.

As far as "burdening" your QM staff, I see that as less of an evil than having the admin deduction go through all the hoops it will have to go through - unless the system has changed, it will need to be approved by your CO, or higher, depending upon the amount involved.  So, the entire chain of command will get involved as it wends its' way up to him.  

If I'm wrong regarding approving authority, I'm sure someone will correct me - the point being that at SOME point, your CoC is _going_ to get involved, if you can't resolve this quickly.  Getting them involved BEFORE they are blind sided by administrative action seems to me the wiser course.

Good luck to you.


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## westernarmymember (17 Oct 2009)

As Vern previously stated, this simply requires some communication from your RQ to the supporting base. If I am reading your story correctly, you deployed on TF-108? Feel free to shoot me a PM telling me some details and I will assist you with finding a resolution.


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