# Canada and the cold war



## Nick1stJ (15 Dec 2003)

Hi,

I was looking for info,links or books on Canada‘s involvement in the cold war and I thaught that the canadian armed forces would probably be the best place to ask and I was wondering if you could help me.

I seek info on these specific aspects but anything on the canadian involvement in the cold war would be fine:

-The canadian contribution to the vietnam war
-the impact of canada‘s financial aid on the colombo plan 
-the impact of canadian involvement through the UN and peacekeeping missions in the fight against communism
-Anything on canadian military involvement in the cold war

Thanks in advance.


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## winchable (15 Dec 2003)

Nick,
During the Vietnam war, roughly 30,000 men came to Canada to avoid the draft. So in that sense there was some involvement. Also men from Canada joined the US armed forces (although I cannot give you an exact number as to how many), and faced just as much hostility upon their return to Canada as the American soldiers did, without any support from the government like the Us soldiers did. They formed groups and eventually got a start in informing people about their roles, and raising money for support.
There is a wall in Windsor Ontario dedicated to the Canadians who fought in the vietnam war, I believe it is called the North Wall, or something like that.

I‘m not very familiar with the colombo plan, here is a lesson plan created by the Canadian Department of Foreign affairs and international trade regarding that.
 http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/ciw-cdm/6divid_lesson_plan-en.asp 

As for the last two topics, there are alot of people on this forum who have served in the cold war and would know alot more specifics about how canada was involved in the fight against Communism. Ie, our bases in West Germany ((I‘m pretty sure some posters were posted there.)

Canada contributed in general, by providing an early warning system to the defence of the continent by protecting the route over the arctic circle from russia, with the DEW line.

 http://www.lswilson.ca/dewline.htm 

A link to some information about the DEW line.

Our navy played quite a large role, I know on a personal note my father joined the navy to, among other reasons, fight the communists.
The navy was into anti soviet submarine, anti soviet surveillance warfare etc. As well as simply providing a visible force in the Atlantic, part of a Detente type of situation i believe.

As for the army‘s involvement like i said, many posters on this forum served in the army during the cold war and would be much better help then I was here, but this is a start.


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## Danjanou (15 Dec 2003)

An excellent starter book on Canadian‘s in Vietnam
is *Unknown Warriors Canadians in the Vietnam War * by Fred Gaffen (Dundurn Press Toronto 1990 ISBN 1 55002-073-0). It covers accounts of the estimated 12,000 to 30,000 Canadians who enlisted in the US military during the war in SEA and those who fought there. 

By the way Che your numbers regarding US citizens who came north to avoid the draft are probably a little high.

Another good book worth looking at is *War Without Battles Canada‘s NATO Brigade in Germany 1951-1993* by Sean M. Maloney(McGraw-Hill Ryerson 1997  ISBN: 0-9680441-0-7 / 0968044107)

I‘ve read the first and can recomend it. Have yet to sit down and read the second, but a glance at it suggests it may be a good read.


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## winchable (15 Dec 2003)

Yeah I couldn‘t find a good solid number on that, 30,000 was the one I came across the most.


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## winchable (15 Dec 2003)

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0617-03.htm  

It‘s a pretty left wing website, but it gives an even higher number.

Here‘s another one that puts people who dodged the draft all together at 20,000 and people who deserted the military at 12000

  http://www.pressrepublican.com/Archive/2001/05_2001/05182001pb.htm  

With the internet in general you have to be careful, the best idea is just to look into the books Danjanou suggested, definetly more concrete.


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## Michael Dorosh (16 Dec 2003)

Check with your local chapter of the Vietnam Veterans of Canada - there is an active branch in Calgary, for example - they may be able to provide more info.

WE STAND ON GUARD is a good book covering the Canadian military from before Confederation up to the end of the Cold War.


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## Danjanou (16 Dec 2003)

Che you have to realize that even the books I noted probably have bias inherent in them.

Gaffen‘s work could probably considered right wing and therefore the numbers he presents in regards to both Canadian‘s who served in SEA and draft dodgers who came north may be suspect (the first number inflated, the second minimized). He is after all trying to prove his arguments as are the left wing sources you noted.

Also remember Canada was not the only preferred destination for Americans avoiding the draft. Sweden and Morocco were also popular destinations. Mexico, most European nations and several Central American countries also had there share too.


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## Gunnar (16 Dec 2003)

Just remember, * bias * isn‘t a political viewpoint.  If you are right-wing, but restrict yourself to provable facts to prove your points, your arguments may be wrong (because you may not be using the data correctly), but you aren‘t biased.

Simply because a political argument is being expressed doesn‘t make the data suspect.  It is even possible for those on the left wing to make the occasional observation based on facts.  It doesn‘t happen often        . **Biased** reporting is reporting which mis-quotes, misuses or takes data out of context in order to prove a pre-determined conclusion.  A good example of biased "reporting" would be Bowling for Columbine.

So if you‘re claiming a probable "bias", what do you base this probability on?

It bothers me that today anyone can claim that someone‘s arguments are "biased" without proof, thereby dismissing their viewpoint without answering or attempting to address the facts which underlie that opinion.

Cheers!


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## Nick1stJ (17 Dec 2003)

Thanks guys,that truly helped me out.

But
I‘d just like to know if canada have participated in any peacekeeping missions that had any real impact on the cold war(or at least against communist expansionism).

Hearing about the canadian contribution to the european defense and the role of canada‘s navy in the cold war would be nice too.

have canada had any role in the nuclear scene?Did we ever get the bomb?


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## winchable (17 Dec 2003)

We never had a need for the bomb, the Americans had and still have more then enough for us.
We do have nuclear powerplants as well as, don‘t quote me, an advanced nuclear research center at Chalk River.

The navy in the cold war, was as I said, very much involved in anti submarine warfare (I think that the ships we still have are all equipped primarily for anti-submarine warfare); As I believe that the soviets had a huge, huge submarine force, and that was the biggest fear at the time.
Ex-dragoon is navy right now, so he would be more help as to defining the role of the navy, but that‘s all I can recall from memory.


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## Ex-Dragoon (17 Dec 2003)

Our primary role is ASW but we have really gotten away from that with the CPFs and the 280s. Where we once basically only studied one aspect of naval warfare (which is all we could) we now have the Harpoon for ASuW (anti surface warfare) the SM-2 for AAW (anti air warfare). We became a jack of all trades navy instead of a master of one.


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## Jungle (17 Dec 2003)

Canada did have nuclear weapons in the past:  





> When Canada purchased the Honest John surface-to-surface missile system to equip its brigade in Europe, it also took the opportunity to upgrade its interceptor forces in Canada with the CF-101 Voodoo and the Bomarc surface-to-air missile.  Controversy erupted when it was discovered that all three weapons systems would be  *fully capable of launching nuclear tipped warheads* .


See here:   Cold war 
Nick1stJ, I suggest you visit that site, there is a lot of information about Canada‘s involvement in the cold war.


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## winchable (17 Dec 2003)

That is the first I‘ve heard of that jungle, thankyou!
Is that common knowledge that I missed out on because of birth date? Or is it something that is relatively unknown to most?
Also after reading, the site doesn‘t seem to mention where we got the nuclear warheads from, or where they went after we decided against arming with them, does anyone know?


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## Jungle (18 Dec 2003)

Everything was American-made; warheads and delivery systems.
It‘s not comon knowledge, because people don‘t like to think of Canada as a Military power. But there was a time when Canada played with the big boys...


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## winchable (18 Dec 2003)

Oh, that‘s probably my mistake, I was recalling my info from memory, I should have worded it: "canada never developed nuclear weapons."
That much is true, correct?


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## muskrat89 (18 Dec 2003)

I had a couple of very close friends working with the Honest Johns


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## jrhume (18 Dec 2003)

I found a couple of interesting bits about the development of the atomic bomb and Canada.

1.  At least some of the uranium ore used to produce the bombs used on Japan was mined in the Great Bear Lake region.

2.  One article I ran across said that the Manhattan project coordinated activities in 39 sites in the US and Canada.  The article has no listing of the sites, so I don‘t know how many were in Canada.

3.  Another article says the project was a joint effort of Britain, the US and Canada.  Again, no hard information beyond that.

I think it should be recalled that Canada was a very important ally, contributing large numbers of troops, equipment and technical expertise.  It‘s hard to imagine that Canada would not have been part of a project this large.  Some 140,000 civilians worked on the project, in one manner or another.  Some of them were probably Canadian.

I‘m sure there are books which would provide much more information.

Jim


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## Spr.Earl (20 Dec 2003)

Jim in Trail,B.C. up untill 2 yrs ago the building where the heavy water was produced for the Bomb in WW2 was still standing.

They brought in a contractor to tear it down,but alas the old construction method‘s of the day were to much.I heard the wall‘s were 6‘ thick and the floor‘s were 3 to 4‘ thick and it was literaly built like a brick s@#t house!

Also during the Cold War,Comox here on the West Coast did have Nuke‘s on the base.


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## Art Johnson (20 Dec 2003)

A number of Canadian Soldiers were involved in A Bomb testing during the Cold War. During one exercise they were required to proceed through the area where a bomb had been detonated a short time after the explosion. At least one soldier, Cpl., Ken McOrmand MM, of 2 Bn The RCR claimed he developed cancer from the experience. It took a long time but the government finally accepted his claim and he received a pension.


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## Nick1stJ (24 Dec 2003)

Ok thanks.

Does anyone know the exact role of the armed forces in case of communist invasions? 
Like if the USSR decided to invade west germany before the 60s,what would be the role of Canada‘s Army?


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## axeman (26 Dec 2003)

Well lets see there was the OP REFORGER in Germany
ARRAY ENCOUNTER in Norway
and others  all this was done in the NATO
umbrella. Canadian Forces were deployed to Europe  as part of NATO   :fifty:


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## Roger (29 Dec 2003)

The Canadian brigade was on 24 hour notice at all times, you had to have your ruck ready to go when ever there was an alert called, the alert was called "snowball" all the sirens on the base would go off and you would hear "snowball, snowball" over the loud speakers, You then got dressed and ran to your track vehicle, formed up and went to a hide to prepare for the Soviet invasion. Our job was to slow the Soviet advance until reinforcements would arrive and also to give time for all of the NATO countryâ€™s to mobiles. This was also was practiced every year on a fall exercise called â€œreforgerâ€; a whole US division would be transported to Germany. I was told that the Canadian Brigade was given a life expectancy of 24 hours.


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## Art Johnson (29 Dec 2003)

Huh, that‘s not the story I got from my buddies who where there. What tracked vehicles are you speaking of, Oxford Carriers? They did things the Old Fashioned way trucks and shanks mare. You are right about the exercises a friend of mine broke his leg walking across a railway tressel. Eventualy had to have his leg amputated, never did get a pension for it. I don‘t know about sirens and snowball but a US Engineering Unit camped across the road from the Highland Battalion onone of these exercises and couldn‘t stand the Pipe Band playing "Johny Cope" for revalle, they got used to it. Then one morning the Pipe Band didn‘t play "Johny Cope" and the Engineers all slept in. The band was away in England playing at the Coronation of Queen  Elizabeth II, apparently the CO of the Engineering Unit was quite upset.

 http://dileas.mapleleafup.org


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## Strath (31 Dec 2003)

There are 2 books that I know of that have been published on Canada‘s Nato Bde in Germany.  The 1st one was a limited edn published by 4CMBG in 1983, entitled "Canada‘s NATO Brigade: A History."  It is not a scholarly work & has lots of pix.  The 2nd one is "War Without Battles: Canada‘s NATO Brigade in Germany 1951-1993" by Sean Maloney published by McGraw-Hill Ryerson in 1997.  It is an excellent work, covering all aspects of the 4 Bde‘s existence from start to finish, with particular reference to the Bde‘s role in the Cold War.  The many maps are particularly good at illustrating the Bde‘s job.


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## Roger (31 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by Art Johnson:
> [qb] Huh, that‘s not the story I got from my buddies who where there. What tracked vehicles are you speaking of, Oxford Carriers?  [/qb]


Well your buddies are a lot older than me because I do not know what an Oxford is, we where in M113‘s. And I was talking about the 70‘s. My life there was not at all like your buddies and I never saw any bagpipes unless it was a special ceremony. My message was quite accurate of my time, sounds like it was more of a party when they were there.


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## logau (3 Jan 2004)

You want this book

Canada and UN Peackeeping: Cold War by Other Means 1945-1970
Author: Sean M. Maloney, Sean Maloney
Published By: Vanwell Publishing Ltd,
Trade Paperback
ISBN:1551250888
Published: November 2002

Our first peackeeping msns were to help scout out recovery airfields for returning bombers after they had nuked the Soviet Union. One of these airfields was in SURPRISE! Kabul Afghanistan.

Canadians were up to their noses in the COLD WAR and we did very well. 

We were NUKE capable in ARTY - Honest John Missle and air to air missiles aka the GENIE which were phased out when the CF 18 came in. I believe we also had NUKE depth charges.

See 

DAM The Torpedoes
Author: Paul T Hellyer
Published By: Chimo Media Limited
Hardcover
ISBN:077104061X
Published: July 1990

He was Minister of DND in the Pearson Government and he talks briefly how we had the slectable yield NUKEs on the CF 104 in Germany.




> Originally posted by Nick1stJ:
> [qb] Thanks guys,that truly helped me out.
> 
> But
> ...


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## East Side Soprano (4 Jan 2004)

Were these Canadian developed and manufactured nukes, or did we buy them off the Americans. I‘m asking because I never knew Canada had any nuclear capability and would be surprised if we even had our own nuclear program.


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## Danjanou (4 Jan 2004)

Trap,

From the sounds of it Art‘s buddy was there in the 1950‘s-early 1960‘s when the brigade was up north near the Brits. From pictures I‘ve seen they didn‘t have the M-113s in the 1950‘s and looks like they used 3/4 trucks as training APC‘s (any old timers out there onfirm or contradict that?). The 1st Highland Bn (composite militia bn later redesignated the Black watch) went over in the 1950‘s so the pipers makes sense.

I have less than fond memories of snowballs too, but some fairly good memories of Hugelsheim (sp?)

Getting back to the original question. It seems to me that as East-West tensions rose the alert level of the 4CMBG went up. I was there when the Iran Iraq war broke out in 1980 right at the end of Reforger and if I remember the number of snowballs seemed to increase. Played havoc with post ex drills and leave.  :crybaby:


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