# Relinquishing rank when transferring to reg force (inf)



## Jarnhamar (28 Jul 2014)

When reservists were returning from Afghanistan in the later years there was a moratorium put on members relinquishing their rank when taking offers to transfer to the regular force.  MCpls for example were not able to try and transfer over as a cpl, it was explained that this wasn't fair to cpls trying to compete for cpl positions with someone of a higher rank.

Is that still the case or can MCpls drop down to the rank of cpl when going from res infantry to reg infantry?


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## dapaterson (28 Jul 2014)

That initiative is no longer in place, as far as I know.  Each case is assessed individually for a CT in trade.  There are a number of variables at play, including qualifications, experience, state of the PML of the Reg F occupation...

That said, I know of one person who recently CT'd to the Reg F (in a support trade) who entered in rank as a WO.  (And I know that the plural of anecdote isn't data).


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## Franko (28 Jul 2014)

I know of one that CT'd in as a Sgt when he wasn't qualified. Don't ask me how it happened, but it was sorted out rather quickly.

Regards


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (29 Jul 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> When reservists were returning from Afghanistan in the later years there was a moratorium put on members relinquishing their rank when taking offers to transfer to the regular force.  MCpls for example were not able to try and transfer over as a cpl, it was explained that this wasn't fair to cpls trying to compete for cpl positions with someone of a higher rank.
> 
> Is that still the case or can MCpls drop down to the rank of cpl when going from res infantry to reg infantry?



It depends on the offer you get from the occupation manager. They look at your qualifications and experience, the state of the trade and shortages in rank, and then the positions they are going to put you into.

Also depends on the training scheme, some trades have the same qualification courses for regular and reserve (lately I've seen alot of courses that are combined with a mix of reg and reserve on them), where as other trades have abreviated courses for the reserve. Typically if the courses are less in the reserve then it's more likely the CT candidate will drop in rank, all other things the same.


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## DAA (29 Jul 2014)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> When reservists were returning from Afghanistan in the later years there was a moratorium put on members relinquishing their rank when taking offers to transfer to the regular force.  MCpls for example were not able to try and transfer over as a cpl, it was explained that this wasn't fair to cpls trying to compete for cpl positions with someone of a higher rank.
> 
> Is that still the case or can MCpls drop down to the rank of cpl when going from res infantry to reg infantry?



Have a look at CF MILPERSCOM Instr 03/08, it will lay out most of the details with regards to a CT from PRes to Reg F.

Basically at the end of the day, "rank" is at the discretion of the Occupation Manager and DMCPG 5-2 as to what is contained in the offer.  If there is a vacancy in the target MOSID available at the targeted rank, then you just might retain your rank.  If there is no vacancy, then the offer maybe at a lower rank.  Also, there is no GUARANTEED pay protection on transfer from Res F to Reg F.


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## brandon_ (29 Jul 2014)

Almost 3 years ago, I completed a CT to the reg force, and I am currently in a battalion that with the last couple of months has received a large amount of reservists, some have stayed jacks, but a majority of them lost the leaf, and are now PLQ and ASA qualified CPLS, IMO this isn't fair because now these guys are getting merited higher then some of the boys who have spent 5+ years in battalion.


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## PuckChaser (29 Jul 2014)

brandon_ said:
			
		

> IMO this isn't fair because now these guys are getting merited higher then some of the boys who have spent 5+ years in battalion.



Maybe they're earning it? You'd probably have the same people pissed if they CT'd with 4 years in the PRes as MCpls and kept their appointment.


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## George Wallace (29 Jul 2014)

brandon_ said:
			
		

> Almost 3 years ago, I completed a CT to the reg force, and I am currently in a battalion that with the last couple of months has received a large amount of reservists, some have stayed jacks, but a majority of them lost the leaf, and are now PLQ and ASA qualified CPLS, IMO this isn't fair because now these guys are getting merited higher then some of the boys who have spent 5+ years in battalion.



What is fair in your mind?  Is it fair to rank these guys with the qualifications, but not the rank, lower than others who don't have the qualifications?  Are all those Cpls you speak of going to become "streamers" or are some of them perhaps "Career Cpls"?

Is it really your place to question how your leadership look at and merit their personnel?  If you are lucky, perhaps some day you will be in the position to judge which person, the one with five years in or the one with three years in has the most potential to be put on a course or promoted.  Then perhaps you will have some lowly member question your choices.


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (29 Jul 2014)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Maybe they're earning it? You'd probably have the same people pissed if they CT'd with 4 years in the PRes as MCpls and kept their appointment.



Frankly, I would think they'd be more pissed if they were CT'd at MCpl than dropping back to Cpl. Some people are never happy.


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## George Wallace (29 Jul 2014)

I wonder if you factored in the fact that a unit can only fill so many positions of each rank level.  

We all can't be LCols......or MCpls.....or CWO's....or whatever rank you choose to fill in the blanks.


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (29 Jul 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I wonder if you factored in the fact that a unit can only fill so many positions of each rank level.
> 
> We all can't be LCols......or MCpls.....or CWO's....or whatever rank you choose to fill in the blanks.



Exactly, if they CT'd to Cpl then there's still a chance one of the guys that have been there for 5 years can work hard and merit higher next year in hopes of promotion. If they CT to MCpl then they instantly fill the position that would have been up for grabs.


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## Jarnhamar (29 Jul 2014)

Great information, thank you very much.


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## Eye In The Sky (29 Jul 2014)

brandon_ said:
			
		

> Almost 3 years ago, I completed a CT to the reg force, and I am currently in a battalion that with the last couple of months has received a large amount of reservists, some have stayed jacks, but a majority of them lost the leaf, and are now PLQ and ASA qualified CPLS, IMO this isn't fair because now these guys are getting merited higher then some of the boys who have spent 5+ years in battalion.



This mentality has been around for decades and shows that some people don't get the concept of a merit list/system.  Units don't have a union structure, where Bob is senior to Jim because he has been with the company for 2 more months, etc.

You were a PRES type before, right?  Didn't your TI, training and experience counts towards your 'worth' to the CAF when you CTd?  I was never a fan of the "you're just a quick-pick" mentality, and I was _especially_ least fond of the Reg Force guys who had it that were in the 'Mau just a few years ago themselves and also "quick picks".  

Of all the discussion, fights, whatever over Reg and Res BS I've heard over the years, I've personally always liked the way CWO Van Iderstine put it in the 1997 Armour Bulletin (page 37 of 50 on the PDF).  *"Who gives a rat's ass?"*


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## trustnoone73 (29 Jul 2014)

brandon_ said:
			
		

> IMO this isn't fair because now these guys are getting merited higher then some of the boys who have spent 5+ years in battalion.



5+ years in Bn is not the same as five years in rank.  2nd year Cpl's, yeah, this might push them a notch lower but not far or long.  Three or more PER's in rank at a unit vs zero PER's will come out in the scoring at the Unit/Regimental/Corps level sooner before later.  Real people do watch this and the system is designed so that short term blips should have minimal impact on long term careers.

Yes, there are exceptions.


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## trustnoone73 (30 Jul 2014)

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> Exactly, if they CT'd to Cpl then there's still a chance one of the guys that have been there for 5 years can work hard and merit higher next year in hopes of promotion. If they CT to MCpl then they instantly fill the position that would have been up for grabs.



quite likely, the Cpl at year 5 in the unit is not in the promotion zone and doing what he is already doing will move his career along at the same pace regardless of the static of ins and outs of other Cpls.

I would be surprised if a career manager on the cusp of promoting MCpl's would then CT MCpl's in from the PRes to save himself the hassle.  If PRes are coming in at rank it is more likely that the merit list of qualified pers was not going to fill the promotion forecast.  Therefore no one is getting passed over.  Perception may not be reality.  Pay attention to career manager briefs.   When in doubt ask.


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## ModlrMike (30 Jul 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Is MCpl still an uncontrolled rank in the Inf? By which I mean driven solely by national merit boards and lists like support trades are.


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## DAA (30 Jul 2014)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Is MCpl still an uncontrolled rank in the Inf?



CF MILPERSCOM Instr 03/08, Art 4.7  "In the Reg F and PRes, ranks are either uncontrolled or controlled.  Uncontrolled ranks are Corporal and below for NCMs and Captain and below for Officers.  All other ranks are controlled."

The only possible exception to this rule is for some Officer Specialist Occupations, such as Legal Officer, where the rank of Major may be considered an uncontrolled rank.

Part of the CT Process, also involves the members previous PRes Unit Merit File (ie; PERs), making photocopies of all previous PERs and sending these to the PER Processing Centre along with a copy of the CT message.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Jul 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> CF MILPERSCOM Instr 03/08, Art 4.7  "In the Reg F and PRes, ranks are either uncontrolled or controlled.  Uncontrolled ranks are Corporal and below for NCMs and Captain and below for Officers.  All other ranks are controlled."



I can`t recall the exact CANFORGEN, but didn`t the one that detailed the changes to CFPAS-PER policy decentralize MCpl promotion authority from DMCA-D Mil C to the C Army...


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## dapaterson (30 Jul 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I can`t recall the exact CANFORGEN, but didn`t the one that detailed the changes to CFPAS-PER policy decentralize MCpl promotion authority from DMCA-D Mil C to the C Army...



For Army managed occupations, yes.

CANFORGEN 011/14 discusses, and was discussed at: http://army.ca/forums/threads/25156.375


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## brandon_ (30 Jul 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> You were a PRES type before, right?  Didn't your TI, training and experience counts towards your 'worth' to the CAF when you CTd?  I was never a fan of the "you're just a quick-pick" mentality, and I was _especially_ least fond of the Reg Force guys who had it that were in the 'Mau just a few years ago themselves and also "quick picks".


Yes, I was also CT, and if you got the impression from my comment that I wasn't a fan of 'Quick Picks' that is not the case, some of my best friends are from the Militia, I do not hold them in low regard, they bring more life experience to the table.





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> What is fair in your mind?  Is it fair to rank these guys with the qualifications, but not the rank, lower than others who don't have the qualifications?  Are all those Cpls you speak of going to become "streamers" or are some of them perhaps "Career Cpls"?
> 
> Is it really your place to question how your leadership look at and merit their personnel?  If you are lucky, perhaps some day you will be in the position to judge which person, the one with five years in or the one with three years in has the most potential to be put on a course or promoted.  Then perhaps you will have some lowly member question your choices.



First you're right, it is not my place to question how leadership merits, the point I was making wasn't that the guys from the Mo' aren't deserving of being Mcpls, hell I'd prefer some if some of them were. 


I want to be clear, I am not trying to start a Reg VS Pres argument.   The only reason I stayed a CPL is because of this, so it has directly, benefited me, but I will explain, where I think it is unfair, this is very mech world specific. 

The boys from my battle school almost 3 years ago, are now on their second contracts, some have their hooks, most do not, most have spent the last 3 years driving, or gunning vehicles, some have been trying to be the best they can, so they can move on to Crew Commanding, now for example CPL bloggins from the mo is coming with 3-4 years in, qualified PLQ (which is a prerequisite to crew command), the platoons don't need to send one of the soldiers spending a good amount of time in the hatches learning the ins and outs of the vehicle, when they can just send the militia soldier, and take the spot, with no real experience of the vehicle.      

Do you think this is fair?    Perhaps i've gone off topic, perhaps i'm babbling about something totally irrelevant to the original question, I just wanted to clear that up, that as vehicle crew I expect the CC, or the MCPL in charge of the vehicles to be the most knowledgable, I don't think that's fair not only for the crew, but for the un-experinced CC.


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## George Wallace (30 Jul 2014)

brandon_ said:
			
		

> Do you think this is fair?    Perhaps i've gone off topic, perhaps i'm babbling about something totally irrelevant to the original question, I just wanted to clear that up, that as vehicle crew I expect the CC, or the MCPL in charge of the vehicles to be the most knowledgable, I don't think that's fair not only for the crew, but for the un-experinced CC.



I agree with you.  I saw Reserve Armour members CT as MCpls into our unit.  They had NO skill sets and knowledge on the Coyote, nor any real experience as a Troop MCpl.  At the same time, there are Reservist in other Trades that DO have skill sets and knowledge, not only from the Reserves, but from their civilian work and education, that are well above those held by their Reg Force peers.   It all boils down to the individuals and what Trade they are going into.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Jul 2014)

brandon_ said:
			
		

> The boys from my battle school almost 3 years ago, are now on their second contracts, some have their hooks, most do not, most have spent the last 3 years driving, or gunning vehicles, some have been trying to be the best they can, so they can move on to Crew Commanding, now for example CPL bloggins from the mo is coming with 3-4 years in, qualified PLQ (which is a prerequisite to crew command), the platoons don't need to send one of the soldiers spending a good amount of time in the hatches learning the ins and outs of the vehicle, when they can just send the militia soldier, and take the spot, with no real experience of the vehicle.
> 
> Do you think this is fair?    Perhaps i've gone off topic, perhaps i'm babbling about something totally irrelevant to the original question, I just wanted to clear that up, that as vehicle crew I expect the CC, or the MCPL in charge of the vehicles to be the most knowledgable, I don't think that's fair not only for the crew, but for the un-experinced CC.



How do you/the boys feel about the Platoon Leaders then; they have little knowledge or experience 'in the hatches'.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Jul 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I agree with you.  I saw Reserve Armour members CT as MCpls into our unit.  They had NO skill sets and knowledge on the Coyote, nor any real experience as a Troop MCpl.  At the same time, there are Reservist in other Trades that DO have skill sets and knowledge, not only from the Reserves, but from their civilian work and education, that are well above those held by their Reg Force peers.   It all boils down to the individuals and what Trade they are going into.



Some of the zipperhead quick-picks I know did really well, others...not so much.  Their troop time in the 'Mau helped them a lot, if they used it as a stepping stone to build on.  

How would a Res MCpl keep his/her rank on a CT with no PCFs?  At least the boat folks had their gnr quals, AVGP dvr, etc.


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## George Wallace (30 Jul 2014)

Same same.


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## Eye In The Sky (30 Jul 2014)

Rog that for the boat people, but I was thinking along the line of the Jeep Jockey Sqns.  We couldn't even get AVGP/LAV driver courses until the mid to late 90s.  My first tasking to TSS I ended up in 1 Tp (track tp at the time).  The look on people's faces when I tried to explain to them I couldn't get a track or Cougar dvr course.


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## brandon_ (30 Jul 2014)

the Pl





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> It all boils down to the individuals and what Trade they are going into.


agreed.




			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> How do you/the boys feel about the Platoon Leaders then; they have little knowledge or experience 'in the hatches'.



The Platoon Commander is always going to be in his own little world,  thats why we've got the LAV SGT up there with him.


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## trustnoone73 (1 Aug 2014)

brandon_ said:
			
		

> now for example CPL bloggins from the mo is coming with 3-4 years in, qualified PLQ (which is a prerequisite to crew command), the platoons don't need to send one of the soldiers spending a good amount of time in the hatches learning the ins and outs of the vehicle, when they can just send the militia soldier, and take the spot, with no real experience of the vehicle.



There are a few things going on here.  First, PLQ is a pre-req for CC (assuming CTC won't waiver) and your buddies don't have PLQ.  The reserve CTs are irrelevant.  The CC course is going to be run and for the money and time your unit is going to need to qualify as many as possible.  If your unit is as busy as every other unit in the army, just hitting the min course load on a PLQ pre-req course is hard enough.  Next year your unit will run another CC course, and the year after.  Your buddies will get qualified sooner than later.  A mech unit with twice as many CC's as required is a happy unit.  

Secondly, PLQ is career manager loaded.  One part of this is where the Cpl merits regimentally.  Also a factor is how many are qualified but not yet promoted.  For example if a Cpl is merited 60th and 20 above are PLQ qualified he is going on PLQ very very soon.  Heck, anywhere is the double digits is going to start getting PLQ vibes.  

PLQ courses are going to be run, even when we stopped recruiting we still ran leadership courses and your CM and RSM will drill down pretty deep on the merit list to get guys on course.  They may not drill down the list much past the 150+'s and first years in rank but give it a year. 

Once qualified, It may not lead to promotion immediately, but it knocks off the pre-requisite for nearly every advanced course in the army. 

Patience,  there will come a time when your buddies will miss being Cpls


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