# Charges dropped against Canadian soldier who was allegedly playing quick draw?



## GAP (11 Jun 2008)

Charges dropped against Canadian soldier who was allegedly playing ?quick draw?
THE CANADIAN PRESS June 11, 2008, EDT.
Article Link

TRENTON, Ont. - The Canadian military has abruptly ended court martial proceedings against a soldier from CFB Trenton, Ont., who was charged with playing "quick draw" while serving in Afghanistan.

Cpl. Sterling Strong was charged in 2007 with three counts under the National Defence Act after allegedly refusing to stop playing "quick draw" in his sleeping quarters at the Kandahar airfield.

A court martial was held at the Trenton base in May.

Sterling was charged with careless use of a firearm and disobeying a lawful command from a superior officer.

He was also charged with committing an act to the prejudice of good order and discipline.

The military hasn't given a reason for why the charges against Sterling were dropped.
More on link


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## Red 6 (11 Jun 2008)

Do ya'll have a process/system for non-judicial punishments in the Canadian Forces? Down here, something like this would most likely be handled as an Article 15 by the Soldier's commander instead of through a court martial.


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## dapaterson (11 Jun 2008)

Red-6:  Unit COs (and officers they delegate) can conduct summary trials, subject to limitations in the National Defence Act and some associated regulations.

However, certain charges must be tried by court martial, and with certain others the individual charged may elect for a court martial - that is, the unit CO would have the accued in front of them, and the accused would ask for a court martial instead of a summary trial.

Not enough details here to know what happened - either in theatre or at the court martial.


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## Navy_Blue (11 Jun 2008)

We have the right to opt for a courtmartial as far as I know.  I have never had the pleasure of any disciplinary action taken against me.  I know many guys that have done the hatless dance after a run ashore goes longer than expected.


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## vonGarvin (11 Jun 2008)

Navy_Blue said:
			
		

> We have the right to opt for a courtmartial as far as I know.  I have never had the pleasure of any disciplinary action taken against me.  I know many guys that have done the hatless dance after a run ashore goes longer than expected.


As stated previously in this thread, some charges are automatically done as a court martial (sometimes due to the charge and sometimes due to the rank of the accused).  Some charges can be elected by the accused, and others the accused has no choice: it's summary trial.


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## Red 6 (13 Jun 2008)

It sounds like ya'll have a similar system to what we have down in the USA. When a Soldier is charged with a minor offense, he always has the right to request a trial by court martial, even for something as simple as being AWOL. By waiving the right to trial by court martial, he then is processed for NJP. When a Soldier is charged with an offense under the UCMJ, he always has the right to consult with a JAG officer, although he can waive this right. Just like in the CF, some offenses, by their nature or severity, automatically go straight to court martial proceedings.


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## medicineman (13 Jun 2008)

I'm thinking the careless use of a firearm is what brought it to court martial - unless things have changed since I took mil law, disobeying a lawful command is  supposed to be tried by summary trial - I think the firearm charge is Criminal Code is it not?

MM


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## Pte_Martin (13 Jun 2008)

medicineman said:
			
		

> I'm thinking the careless use of a firearm is what brought it to court martial - unless things have changed since I took mil law, *disobeying a lawful command* is  supposed to be tried by summary trial - I think the firearm charge is Criminal Code is it not?
> 
> MM



disobeying a lawful command can be tried by a court martial too


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## meni0n (13 Jun 2008)

The media didn't do their research. You can see the decision on the JAG website. It was stopped due to a technicality as the accused wasn't offered the choice of a court martial.


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## geo (13 Jun 2008)

Some individuals think they are being a "smart a$$" when they chose to go the Courts Martial way... little consideration going to the fact that the power of punishment in Courts Martial is greater than what is reserved to the CO / OC in a Summary trial.

When Afghanistan started, we had a fairly high level of Negligent discharges.  As time and experience has progressed, things have ironed themselves out & I don't believe it is such a big problem any more... at least from what I heard about ROTO4.


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## jollyjacktar (13 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Some individuals think they are being a "smart a$$" when they chose to go the Courts Martial way... little consideration going to the fact that the power of punishment in Courts Martial is greater than what is reserved to the CO / OC in a Summary trial.



Maybe so, but there is method to the madness.  The punishments are more severe with a Courts Martial Trial (CM) vs Summary Trial (ST), true.  But, the burden of truth upon the Crown is greater as well.  This means it is harder to get a conviction in a CM than it is in a ST.  The risk can be worth the reward for some.


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## geo (13 Jun 2008)

Overall, I've found that the CO had a principal vision of dealing with the "crime" quickly and getting the soldier back to work ASAP...  COs punishments I've seen have been "examplary" but, more than fair.....

But those are the COs I've dealt with.


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## GeorgeD (13 Jun 2008)

Really Stupid question, but what is a "quick draw"


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## geo (13 Jun 2008)

Think Wild west "B" movies.....

Pistol in an open holster at your hip and someone yells.... DRAW!! (and we ain,t talking pencil sketches)


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## GeorgeD (13 Jun 2008)

Thank You


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## khawk006 (13 Jun 2008)

What a waste of time to charge this guy. Just some guy having a little harmless fun.


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## Franko (13 Jun 2008)

khawk006 said:
			
		

> What a waste of time to charge this guy. Just some guy having a little harmless fun.



Ummm....no. The whole point is the moron was playing around with a weapon and was ordered to stop.

He didn't and was charged for it.

Past instances of this "harmless fun" resulted in NDs.

Regards


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## Trinity (13 Jun 2008)

khawk006 said:
			
		

> What a waste of time to charge this guy. Just some guy having a little harmless fun.



Do you know something about the situation that we don't???


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## X-mo-1979 (14 Jun 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Ummm....no. The whole point is the moron was playing around with a weapon and was ordered to stop.
> 
> He didn't and was charged for it.
> 
> ...



Agreed.
Makes me wonder who the heck he thinks he is being told to stop by someone senior to him,and carrying on being a twit.I'm sure if he stopped when he was told it maybe would have ended there with a "talking to".Obviously not only is he childish and irresponsible,he's insubordinate.
Was he regular or reserve?Unit?


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## Haggis (14 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Was he regular or reserve?Unit?



Does it really matter?  He was DAGed "Green" and declared OPRED by his chain of command, who then deployed him.  After that, cap badges matter very little.


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## medicineman (14 Jun 2008)

khawk006 said:
			
		

> What a waste of time to charge this guy. Just some guy having a little harmless fun.



When I was on tour in '94, a guy doing just that put a bullet through the roof of the trailer he was in - lucky nobody was in the office above him at the time.

MM


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## Franko (14 Jun 2008)

medicineman said:
			
		

> When I was on tour in '94, a guy doing just that put a bullet through the roof of the trailer he was in - lucky nobody was in the office above him at the time.
> 
> MM


In Bosnia a soldier let a drunk civie play with his weapon in Banja Luka and shot a round through the van and the trailer beside the van.

In '05 we had several NDs that nearly ended in tragedy. A Sgt hitting a WO in the leg, a CWO nearly killing a Snr Officer and a Pte shooting himself in the hand....

The list goes on and on. 

There is a reason why screwing around with a weapon is not tolerated.

Regards


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## khawk006 (14 Jun 2008)

People get killed and wounded - its the army. Deal with it like a nation.


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## old medic (14 Jun 2008)

khawk006 said:
			
		

> People get killed and wounded - its the army. Deal with it like a nation.



Give your head a shake.  
Or let them practice at your house.

There are rules and laws for a reason.


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## KevinB (14 Jun 2008)

khawk006 said:
			
		

> People get killed and wounded - its the army. Deal with it like a nation.


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## Armymedic (14 Jun 2008)

khawk006 said:
			
		

> What a waste of time to charge this guy. Just some guy having a little harmless fun.





			
				khawk006 said:
			
		

> People get killed and wounded - its the army. Deal with it like a nation.



Wow. You really have no clue who your audience is here, do you?


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## geo (14 Jun 2008)

khawk,
harmless fun ended when he was told to stop and he chose to ignore the direct order of his superior by continuing with his imature play... 

You receive a legitime order from your superior - It's the army - deal with it!


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## Franko (14 Jun 2008)

Strange that you registered about 2 years ago and this is the first topic you respond to.

Your tone speaks volumes.

Regards


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## armyvern (14 Jun 2008)

khawk006 said:
			
		

> People get killed and wounded - its the army. Deal with it like a nation.



Listen asshole, when "guys just having a bit of harmless little fun" can kill thier buddies ... we sort that shit out - yes, that's right: we deal with it.

Their buddies are at enough risk of death doing their jobs to be put at unneccessary risk by fucking idiots such as this member was being ... or by idiots like you who'd profess we should be OK with that.

Mirror is that way ... go sort yourself out. You're in a class of your own right now - and I honestly hope to gawd ... that you are NOT a soldier.


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## Garett (14 Jun 2008)

On the Court Martial vs Summary Trial, on my MOSC a JAG lawyer told us 90% of people at Summary Trial are found guilty.


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## Jarnhamar (15 Jun 2008)

khawk006 said:
			
		

> People get killed and wounded - its the army. Deal with it like a nation.



Ban plz K thks


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## GeorgeD (15 Jun 2008)

On the whole Court Martial vs Summary Trial, does Summary Trial remain in your record? In SQ we had a trial for theft, is it a Summary Trial or Court Martial if the guy got kicked out?


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## geo (15 Jun 2008)

George
Minor charges are purged from your disciplinary file after a few years.... the major stuff will only gy bye-bye if you apply for a pardon.

Recommending a person for dismissal from the service is neither a Summary trial or a Courts Martial.
The man was found guilty of theft and punished for it.  A parallel administrative review determined that the individual was unsuitable for military service due to shortcomings that were entirely of his own doing - and released - probably under a 5 (f)


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## Franko (15 Jun 2008)

GeorgeD said:
			
		

> On the whole Court Martial vs Summary Trial, does Summary Trial remain in your record? In SQ we had a trial for theft, is it a Summary Trial or Court Martial if the guy got kicked out?



If it happened in St Jean it was as summary trial with an administrative review at the same time. 

I know someone who is a Plt WO there and it happens all the time, resulting in a 5F if it's serious enough and the individual isn't considered salvageable.

Regards


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## GeorgeD (15 Jun 2008)

Thank You


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## Col.Steiner (15 Jun 2008)

The story lacked detail, so I am wondering if the man is playing quickdraw with a loaded handgun or not? Was there people around when the man was doing this? If the answer is yes to both, then I would imagine that would be very serious indeed. Nonetheless, if ordered to stop something by superiors, then stop it if you're not too thick to understand. I kind of remembering gun safety courses being a little touchy about treating firearms like a toy though, so the man can't be too bright and at the very least be officer material.


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## armyvern (15 Jun 2008)

OberstSteiner said:
			
		

> The story lacked detail, so I am wondering if the man is playing quickdraw with a loaded handgun or not? Was there people around when the man was doing this? If the answer is yes to both, then I would imagine that would be very serious indeed. Nonetheless, if ordered to stop something by superiors, then stop it if you're not too thick to understand. I kind of remembering gun safety courses being a little touchy about treating firearms like a toy though, so the man can't be too bright and at the very least be officer material.



Loaded or not ...

One does not fuck around with their weapon. Pers are taught that from day one, always treat it as loaded. It's when people ignore that ... that shitty things tend to happen.

ALWAYS keep control of your weapon - it's the proper and safe thing to do.


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## medaid (15 Jun 2008)

Want to play quick draw? Get yourself a bluegun or a redgun or some form of weapons emulator, do it on your own time and do it out of sight or if you wish, video tape it and post it on youtube for everyone to see and laugh. 

Otherwise, smarten the f^ck up and obey your damn orders. What are people thinking?



			
				OberstSteiner said:
			
		

> so the man can't be too bright and at the very least be officer material.



and this means... what?


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## PMedMoe (15 Jun 2008)

OberstSteiner said:
			
		

> The story lacked detail, so I am wondering if the man is playing quickdraw with a loaded handgun or not? Was there people around when the man was doing this?



He was in Afghanistan, your weapon is always loaded there.  Besides, as Vern said, loaded or not, it shouldn't matter.


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## geo (16 Jun 2008)

UnteroffizierSteiner has limited experience.... very limited experience


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## Jarnhamar (16 Jun 2008)

OberstSteiner said:
			
		

> so the man can't be too bright and at the very least be officer material.



I bet you would scream to high heaven if an officer made a comment about a 'stupid troop' and question his professionalism and ability to lead blah blah blah

Very stupid comment, smarten up.


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## X-mo-1979 (16 Jun 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> He was in Afghanistan, your weapon is always loaded there.  Besides, as Vern said, loaded or not, it shouldn't matter.



Not in KAF IIRC anymore.Weapon doesnt even have to be carried.

But as vern said it doesnt freakin matter.It's idoits like him who kill good soldiers.

Haggis your right it doesnt matter reg or reserve.Just trying to picture what kind of idoit would be doing this.And from a previous roto it was a young dumb reservist who got charged for the same type of thing.He's a sgt now....
And not saying it couldnt happen to the reg force either.Seen my share of young and dumb there as well.

Why doesnt this army like making examples of people anymore......remember when we use to do that?? :rage:


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## geo (16 Jun 2008)

Hmmm... not making examples... 
Apply discipline fairly & never pass a wrong
If others see what has been done to the guilty ba$tard.... then that's a bonus


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## PMedMoe (16 Jun 2008)

X-mo-1979 said:
			
		

> Not in KAF IIRC anymore.Weapon doesnt even have to be carried.



Geez, can't wait to go back then!


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## Franko (16 Jun 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> He was in Afghanistan, your weapon is always loaded there.  Besides, as Vern said, loaded or not, it shouldn't matter.



Moe,

That was on it's way out when we left due to so many NDs by the oncoming Roto. 

As for what they do in KAF, we only see that shyte hole inbound or outbound.

Regards


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## PMedMoe (16 Jun 2008)

Recce By Death said:
			
		

> Moe,
> 
> That was on it's way out when we left due to so many NDs by the oncoming Roto.



Were you on the same Roto as me?  There were an awful lot of NDs when the new pers came in...... :-\


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## Franko (16 Jun 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Were you on the same Roto as me?  There were an awful lot of NDs when the new pers came in...... :-\



WH B5....3 rows down from Canada House....right next door to you.

Good to see you were paying attention.     ;D

Regards


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## Col.Steiner (24 Jun 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> UnteroffizierSteiner has limited experience.... very limited experience
> [/quote
> 
> Ahh, I can always find you nipping at my heels.


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## Arctic Acorn (24 Jun 2008)

For those out there who seem to wonder why we take this stuff so seriously:

Our weapons are not toys, and those who treat them as such need a rapid sorting out. The ability to apply deadly force is serious business. 

As past incidents have shown us, stupid crap like this can result in serious injuries or, at worst, ramp ceremonies.


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## aesop081 (24 Jun 2008)

Let me see.........

The charges were dropped

Nobody was found guilty of anything

Did i miss why this thread is still going on ?


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## mover1 (24 Jun 2008)

Don't you have the ability to lock it or is this guy the going to be the Army.ca/DND version of OJ Simpson.


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## Good2Golf (24 Jun 2008)

AS noted, charges dropped due to procedural technicality with election of trial.

Locked.

Milnet.ca Staff


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