# Sterling



## Black Watch (2 May 2005)

Did anybody used the Sterling smg???? If so, how was it?


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## George Wallace (2 May 2005)

I didn't use the Sterling.  I used the SMG C1 and loved it.  Was easy to strip.  Easy to carry.  Fit well into a Vehicle.  I was fairly proficient up to 100m with it.  10 and 30 rd mags.  It was a very 'simple' wpn.


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## Crazy_Eyes (3 May 2005)

Can someone provide a picture or a link to a picture of this weapon?


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## Michael OLeary (3 May 2005)

http://www.eme421.com/9mmC1.html


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## Slim (3 May 2005)

Good weapon for room clearing...Just cock it, then toss it in the room needing to be cleared and close the door. The gun would do the rest. (famous for accidental discharges) ;D

I did enjoy shooting and carrying that weapon though.

Slim


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## TCBF (3 May 2005)

Is this deja vu, or what?  We had a thread on this, I thought.  The Sten you might have been able to toss into a room and roll the whole mag, not the Sterling, and especially not after the trigger group mods after that poor guy shpt himself jumping off a truck in the October 1970 crisis.


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## Slim (3 May 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Is this deja vu, or what?   We had a thread on this, I thought.   The Sten you might have been able to toss into a room and roll the whole mag, not the Sterling, and especially not after the trigger group mods after that poor guy shpt himself jumping off a truck in the October 1970 crisis.



Sorry Bro...Gotta disagree with you there. I have had plenty of the weapons "jump" on me from time to time. They fired from an open bolt and were notorious for AD's.

I seem to remember that the dirty secret to carrying one was not to carry it cocked. When you wanted to fire you just held the trigger down and cocked the weapon, and away she went... 

On the bright side they were very dependable and tough as a rock.

I did enjoy using them very much.

I also remember that the mags everybody wanted were the 32 round British "roller" mags that did seem to work just a bit better...

Slim


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## TCBF (3 May 2005)

By "jump" you mean one round, not the whole mag, right?


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## x-grunt (3 May 2005)

Ah, I enjoyed the SMG.

Not certain just how it was different from the Sterling. It was a simple little short range weapon, used 9 mm rounds so it would sort of rattle around in my hands instead of kick like a rifle. 

I remember being trained to hold the butt against my stomach as one way of shooting straight "from the hip". Not much kick, so easy to do. Sight had 100 and 200 yard settings, and past that you may as well throw rocks. I was pretty good with it. Easy to maintain, very simple weapon. Basically a barrel on a pipe,  with a spring and a bolt inside. (Okay it was a little more complex - but not by much.)

Stock could fold up, which was handy in tight spaces. I hated firing it with the stock folded, felt wrong and harder to aim. Fun to use overall. Kind of felt like a toy beside the FN's.

Crazy_Eye's, here's another SMG C1 photo http://www.rcafp.ca/cgi-bin/pg/displayimage.php?album=10&pos=0

FYI,the stormtroopers in the original star wars are using sterlings with "raygun" stuff glued on them.

Slim, what was different about the 32 rd mags? I heard about them, but never knew why they were considered better.


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## Slim (3 May 2005)

x-grunt said:
			
		

> Slim, what was different about the 32 rd mags? I heard about them, but never knew why they were considered better.



There was a small roller-type thingie that sat on top of the spring, onto which you loaded the ammo. I don't know that thye were any better, although they didn't seem to jam at all like the Cdn ones occasionally did...may have just been the cool factor, not sure as I'ts been quite sometime since I used that weapon.

I too remember the shooting from the hip and tummy stances. I tried it with an MP-5 one time...Not quite the same.

As for "jump" I mean that i can remmeber cocking the weapon one time and an entire mag blew off...Made me very popular that day! (MILCON '86 I think)

Still a great piece of kit though...It always blows me away to see the Stormtroopers using the Sterling with optical sights on it. Does anyone know what the larger weapons were that they had in the dessert? (Tatooine)


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## TCBF (3 May 2005)

"As for "jump" I mean that i can remmeber cocking the weapon one time and an entire mag blew off...Made me very popular that day! (MILCON '86 I think)"

I have never seen that in a Sub-Machine Gun, 9 mm, C1.


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## garb811 (3 May 2005)

In my experience, the biggest problem were with the guys who figured just because the weapon wasn't cocked there was no need for the safety to be on.

As for a multi-round jump, I'm shamed to admit it but it happened to me due to less than satisfactory cleaning.  The open bolt let all manner of crud and corruption fall into the action and my trigger mech became heavily contaminated by sand due to a little too much oil.  When I cocked the weapon and let go the...errr...thingee (trust me, it's really a highly techincal term for the part)...that held the bolt back didn't engage when the bolt came forward.  Fortunately it was blank.


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## Lance Wiebe (3 May 2005)

> When I cocked the weapon and let go the...errr...thingee (trust me, it's really a highly techincal term for the part)..



The sear?

The SMG was a very simple, very cheap weapon.  There was nothing extra-ordinary about it, except for the fact that it could be operated by the simplest of people with the minimum of training.  Great for dropping off behind enemy lines and so on.  

There was, and still is, many better examples of machine guns out there, that are both much safer and much more accurate, and many of us have fired them.

I can still never figure out why we put a bayonet stud on it though.  It's not as if I would jump out of my Lynx and attach a bayonet to the stupid thing.

One of the many things that puzzle me...........

Having said all that, it was fun.  Not a great weapon, but it was fun.


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## garb811 (3 May 2005)

Lance Wiebe said:
			
		

> The sear?



Doah!  Yeah, the sear, doesn't roll off the tongue the way thingee does but much more descriptive!


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## TCBF (3 May 2005)

"Canada Evidence Act" doesn't roll off the tongue either... ;D


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## 1feral1 (3 May 2005)

The Canadian Arsenals Limited Sterling (SMG 9mm C1) differed from it's UK counterpart in many ways such as:

- C1 had a one piece bolt, the UK one had a two piece
- different recoil springs
- the mags as ours had a basic follower (10 and 30 rd capacity) and the UK one a roller which is mentioned on here in another post, and the UK one is a 34rd mag, not 32rd. STENs had 32 rd mags though, and the Cdn 9mm Ball ammo used to come in boxes of 64rds, which was carried over from the STEN days. I have no idea how its packed now.
- trigger groups are different, and trigger guards
- rear butts are slightly different (the UK one is lighter with more holes in the strut)
- mag releases are different
- front and rear sights are different (C1 SMG used the same front sight as the FN C1 and C2 family of small arms, and the front sight adjusting screw was the same as the arctic trigger guard retaining screw on the C1 and C2.
- different bayonets are used (FNC1 on ours and the No5 jungle carbine bayonet on the UK one) 
- end caps are different
- on some UK versions even the protective surfaces were painted, while teh C1 SMG was phosphated
- The UK had a version which was even suppressed called the L34A1.

About the C1 SMG, with the safety catch on 'S' the bolt was also locked in the forward position to prevent any   'drop fire' incidents. With the change lever on R or A, if dropped or when jumping from a vehicle with the bolt forward (wpn not cocked) there acan be enpough inertia to bring the bolt back far enough to pick up a cartridge (but no enough usually to cock it) from the mag and fire it, thus re-cocking the weapon. with the change lever on 'S' and cocked, the action again could not be fired as it was locked to the rear. 


Cheers,

Wes


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## baboon6 (3 May 2005)

Wasn't the Australian F1 SMG also based on the Sterling? Few more modifications though, such as the top-loading mag, similiar to the Owen gun of WW2 (which I've seen pictures of being used as late as Vietnam in 1966).


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## 1feral1 (3 May 2005)

About the only thing the F1 SMG and the C1 SMG/Sterling is the calibre, and both the mags interchange. The F1 uses some SLR parts, that being the rear sling swivel, modified pistol grip, and the butt plate.

The F1 used the standard L1A1 SLR bayonet (basically the same bayonet as the FNC1), and had NO provison for a BFA. The F1 SMG along with the L1A1 SLR were in service well into the early 1990's, and were still around in 1995 at some Units.

Another Sterling fact is the 32 rd STEN mag will interchange, but the Sterling mags will NOT fit into a STEN.

Go figure.


Cheers,

Wes


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## Slim (4 May 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> I call (self-edited for politeness) on that one.



PM inbound

Slim


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## George Wallace (4 May 2005)

Just a point......the bolt had a fixed firing pin.  So if dropped enough to pick up a round........well 50/50 chance of firing....depends on amount of return pressure I guess.


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## 1feral1 (4 May 2005)

Common with open bolt firng SMGs, the cartridge is actually fired before its totally chambered, called pre-ignition, and hence why you can physically see a swelled case from the back to about 1/3 up from the end of it.

This is totally normal, and can be seen on STEN, and C1 SMG's spent caseings.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 May 2005)

Slightly away from the topic on hand but I always thought the Mk7 variant of the Sterling was pretty interesting. Brings to mind what the MP5K is to the MP5N (and family).


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## Black Watch (4 May 2005)

So, I see that the Sterling(C1 SMG) was a popular wpn. As i can see, it was good, reliable and easy to use. But one more question: why was it issued to signals rather than plt commander or sct commender?


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## TCBF (4 May 2005)

1.   It was, at one time, issued to Sect Comds, and Pl Comds carried pistols.   But, "Watch my tracer!" is a great fire control order, unavailable to to our SMG holders*.   Since Sect Comds and Pl Comds do a lot of fire control, they were given rifles.   Pl Comds will carry a rifle and a pistol, Crew Comds will carry a rifle/carbine and a pistol.

2.   Another reason: Try not to look conspicuous.

3.   Always lots of 7.62 mm around.

* Yeah, I know, there IS 9 mm tracer.   Some where on the planet.   Got a NATO Stock Number for it?   Ever seen any in Cdn stock?


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## Bartok5 (5 May 2005)

Wes,

You will be glad to know that I still have "your" C1 SMG within my collection, along with the full EIS and spare parts kit.  The gun has been refinished, and now looks Cdn Arsenals Ltd factory-fresh      The only down-side is that unless the latest sensesless "edict" from the firearms bureaucracy can be reversed, it will be legally fired for the last time on 22 May using my final, valid Special Authority to Posses permit....

As an interesting aside, I have been able to determine that there are indeed only 3 converted-auto C1 SMGs in private hands in Canada - the one you sold me those many years ago being one of the trio.  I have tracked down the owners of the other two SMGs which were listed on the importation invoice from SIDEM.  No one else has stepped forward to claim ownership of a C1 not on that invoice.  Aside from the few additional 12(2) Full-Auto C1s still in grandfathered hands, it would seem that they are a rare Canadian collector's item indeed.

In addition to the points noted in your post above, the key difference between the C1 SMG and the British Sterling is in the method of manufacture.  In keeping with the simplified (and therefor less expensive) manufacturing techniques employed for the C1 SMG, all of the permanent receiver parts have flanges which are spot-welded to the tube.  In comparison, the Sterling has smooth, seamless welds without the flanges.  The more sophisticated (but time-consuming and needless) welding employed on the Sterling gives the C1 a much more "utilitarian" appearance when the two are compared side-by each.  The C1 SMG also employs more sheet-metal stampings than the Sterling does - the Trigger Mechanism Housing being one case in point.  

The C1 SMGs / Sterlings are great little sub-guns, and are unquestionably one of the best (if not the best) 2nd-generation SMG designs.  Having said that, they are now decidedly obsolete in the context of military service for all of the reasons previously noted.  Even within the SMG genre, the C1/Sterling design must accede to the more refined 3rd-generation (telescoping bolt) and 4th generation (system-based) designs.  The Uzi would be the most prolific of the 3rd-gen designs resulting in a more compact package due to 2/3 of the barrel length being contained within the "over-hung" bolt.  The ubiquitous MP-5 is the best-known (and most popular) of the 4th gen designs, featuring extensive commonality of handling drills, parts, and accessories with its rifle-calibre siblings.  Owning both an Uzi and an MP-5, I would unquestionably choose to carry either of those in preference to a C1 SMG or Sterling.  

Just my $.02 CAD....

Mark C


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## medicineman (5 May 2005)

I miss the old go fast guns - certainly alot easier to bring to bear in the tight confines of an ambulance cab, don't get in the way as much when looking after sick people, and just plain simple to shoot and maintain.  They're also fun for close quarters use - toss it into a room, and let it rock and roll.

MM


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## TCBF (5 May 2005)

"They're also fun for close quarters use - toss it into a room, and let it rock and roll."

Oh, No, not this again!  :

Slim, you must be laughing your head off!


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## Freddy Chef (5 May 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> ...Still a great piece of kit though...It always blows me away to see the Stormtroopers using the Sterling with optical sights on it. Does anyone know what the larger weapons were that they had in the dessert? (Tatooine)



Optical sights were just for the LCF, Lucas does that well.

The larger weapons? MG-42's by the looks of them. (Going by the original trilogy, that is.)


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## 1feral1 (5 May 2005)

Good to hear, Mark. I do remember our gathering (Jack, Craig, me, you) at a rifle range near Edmonton on my first trip back to Canada in late 1997. Hard to believe that was almost 8 yrs ago.

That C1 SMG came out of Zaire if I remember correctly, thru Wilkie.

Is this CA shooting ban a Canada wide thing?


Cheers,

Wes


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## TCBF (5 May 2005)

Wes, 

The govmint says that Bill C10A has removed their ability to legally issue SAPs for taking Prohibs to the range.  Bill C10A does not say that at all, and a Library of Parliament Research Paper backs us up. C10A limits ATTs, not SAPs.  Bunfight.  My SAP ends 29 May, after that, my two FN C1A1 s and my three Lithgow L1A1 s dont get happy any more.  Some SAPs go to 31 Dec 05.  It's one big MCF.

Stay tuned.

Fired 50 rounds from my 10 mm DE Tue night.  A pleasant evening.


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## 1feral1 (5 May 2005)

So, its Canada wide? Pretty bloody sad, and just what are they trying to do? too bad you did not live on a farm.


Cheers,

Wes


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## TCBF (5 May 2005)

We all know what they are trying to do. Disarm Canada.  But, that's another thread.


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## Black Watch (5 May 2005)

ok, I didn't know that this thread would be that hot. It was for info. However, why SMG was so popular with signals?


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## Michael OLeary (5 May 2005)

Black Watch said:
			
		

> However, why SMG was so popular with signals?



It wasn't a matter of 'popularity' with the signallers, the SMG was the designated weapon for the platoon signaller. Most likely selected as such because it was smaller and lighter than the service rifle (the FN C1) and gave the signaller more flexibility in handling his radio. Perhaps one of the signallers on the forum can give some insight into the radios in use leading up to and during the SMG's service years to present an idea of the signaller's responsibilities and combat load.


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## Black Watch (5 May 2005)

realy??? But how was the FNC1? I only have experience on the C7 or the C9


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## Michael OLeary (5 May 2005)

A good rifle for its day, heavy and solid with a good punch in 7.62 calibre. Try this thread for a wide range of comments and opinions:

 The FN C1 - Service Rifle of the Past (and C7A1 vs FN C1A1) 
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/22220.0.html


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## 1feral1 (6 May 2005)

Canada was the first country to adopt and mass produce the rifle, followed by the UK and Australia. The C1 and L1 are of the 'inch pattern' design and differ very slightly from one another with all parts interchanging, many as complete components only, smaller parts are identical.

It was rifle that you could butt-stroke someone with, and not worry about the rifle breaking.

Today the L1A1 is still in service in other countries (usually former British colonies, and Commonwealth nations, or where there was/is British influence) throughout the world, but as for the C1A1, well, as far as I know it was used only by the CF, RCMP, and some regional Police within Canada. Samples were sold to other countries, as I have seen at least two here in Australia alone, and I am sure the UK has some also.

Cheers,

Wes


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## redleafjumper (6 May 2005)

The Sterling Mk 4 police carbine (and SMG) is one of my favourite firearms.  I find it to be a much more solidly constructed firearm than the C1 SMG as it is more machined and not stamped as much..  It isn't CA, as it was made with a semi-auto trigger pack and as the letter from Dagenham says, "not converted".  The old SMGs were a very great piece of kit - George Patchett's baby was the state of the art in advanced primer ignition.  Apparently the reason that the Sten mags fit in Sterlings but not vice versa was purely and simply that the manufacturers wanted people to buy Sterling to replace the Stens and not just replace the Sten mags with Sterling ones - the Sten mags are notoriously difficult to reload (a loading tool that was issued helps) while the Sterling mags are a dream in comparison. 

The Sterlings are reliable in difficult conditions (I have used the C1 in winter exercises down to minus 54 degrees without any problems) and surprisingly accurate for a firearm that fires from an open bolt.  A truly excellent book on the Sterlings from Collector Grade Publications is called:  The Guns of Dagenham: Lanchester, Patchett, Sterling.  It is by Peter Laidler and David Howroyd.  If you are as I am, a fan of these handy little weapons then you really need that book.  It has good sections on Sterlings from around the world, including the Canadian C1.  
Like others, I prefer the British mags as they are much better made, even if they didn't fit in the Canadian mag pouches.  I have also fired the MP5 and it was nice, but I still prefer the Sterling - I am probably being a bit of a romantic here, but the MP5 strikes me as being more susceptible to problems with dirt and extreme conditions, and besides you can get closer to the ground with that sterling side mag.  Perhaps others who have used the MP5 and the Sterling more than I can comment; likely there is already a thread that covers the topic.


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## Fishbone Jones (6 May 2005)

They were a great piece of kit. Safe and dependable. Simple, stupid to train on and use. Capable and robust. Safe as any other firearm when learned on and used properly. During trials they were drenched, frozen and buried in a variety of substances, and never failed. Cheap to manufacture and maintain. Used a common NATO round, and could take the overloaded 9mm we produced. There was no need to replace them, outside of political considerations. They can still hold there own today and would still be effective. 500 rounds per minute? It only takes one or two of the hot 9mm they used to put someone down. They were perfect for overloaded Sig types, Infanteers and vehicle crews. Biggest problem I see in bringing them back, is that IVI can't, and I doubt ever will, be able to produce quality ammunition to feed them. Same as the rest of the crap that they provide to us, by way of our Gov't contracts. Offer me the chance to carry one again as an Armoured Crewman, and I'll....... OK we won't go there. In most cases we didn't carry it as an assault weapon. It was used for defence, lots of big rounds laid down fast. Used and handled properly, it was hard for the bad guy to grab because of the size and carry. Quick to bring into action, reload, if needed and cleared relatively easy if jammed. What's not to like about it? 

BTW, a Sten MAY drop a whole mag, if you toss it into a room, depending how it lands. A Sterling or C1 SMG won't (barring a mechanical failure) due to design of the sear and trigger mech (safety). Besides, who in their right mind would throw their primary weapon away? Better HOPE it does clear the room, and you can recover it. As opposed to the bad guy killing you with your own issue. DUH!


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## Black Watch (6 May 2005)

OK this htread is popular. According to many documents I red, all three branches were using it: army for armoured crw memebers, navy for bording parties and RCAF for air force police (I have a pic of my uncle standing by the ammo dump at RCAF station St-Hubert, qc) But could annyone tell me more about the open bold thing?


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## MG34 (6 May 2005)

Despite all the moaning and folks singing the praises of the C1 SMG,it is gone and for the better.Pistol caliber SMGs are soon to be as extinct as the dinosaurs in military circle,and indeed in most police forces. They cannot penetrate targets with  body armour,nor can the p[enetrate soft skin vehicles with any reliability. The rifle caliber carbine is the way to go and has been for quite some time,espescially in military circles,Canada is just waking up to this and did something about it with the introduction of the C8. Yes the SMG was coll to carry and what not but it fired a FMJ 9mm round one of the most ineffective wounding projectiles out there today.
(BTW IVI 9mm ammo has not changed    : )


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## TCBF (6 May 2005)

That's why I own a 10 mm Colt DE.  ;D


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## MG34 (8 May 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> That's why I own a 10 mm Colt DE.   ;D



Wow a obsolete round in and equally obsolete pistol,you must be so pround. ;D Too bad we are talking service weapons here not personal collections,I'd still rather have 5.56mm carbine than any pistol caliber,but hey what ever floats yer boat so to speak.


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## TCBF (9 May 2005)

"Wow a obsolete round in and equally obsolete pistol,you must be so pround"

- I like old things.  ;D.  

"I'd still rather have 5.56mm carbine than any pistol caliber..."

- Me too.  Something AKR/AKSU/Whatever.  Too bad Gene Stoner had to put that spring in the darn butt!


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## MG34 (9 May 2005)

The collapsing butt is better than a folder for any number of reasons,such as the folder is a constant length and is non adjustable,it is either folded or fully extended.A collapsable stock can be adjusted for body armour,different firing positions,and extra clothing. You can keep your  AKSU scrap metal,I would like to actually hit what I'm aiming at beyond 50m.


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## TCBF (9 May 2005)

I will reserve my opinion until my firing trials are done. ;D


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## Colin2 (13 May 2005)

I carried one as a Gun commander, normally with the 10 rd mag in it. The cocking handle (got one at home to remind me, along with a few mags) used to stick you in the back or any other place it could. Also the folding stock could pinch the unwary finger.

It was a great little weapon and with a little training you can be quite deadly with it. The biggest problem we had with them was the mags, they were getting old and beat up. For all the people talking about how good their replacements are, perhaps better to compare a new SMG against your favorite weapon or wait 30 years, I bet the SMG will still work well when it is 80 years old!

Funny to watch someone smack the base of the mag like they saw in the movies and have their bullets fall out of the ejection port. Also people that would hold the mag rather than the forestock caused themselves problems

As for the bayonet, well a soldier just had to have a bayonet right? Good for crowd control. Mind you even my  Webely .455 had a bayonet for fighting in 1914


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## sasquatch (30 May 2005)

I have fired the sterling SMG on several occassions ( albeit 28 years ago) and there are a few things that I did not like. First the weapon had a tendancy to climb up when you were shooting on full auto. The models that my unit were equipped with had a 30 round magazine. This is OK on a firing range but not so great in the field. 

 The damn thing also had a tendancy to jam!  
 But I will say that it was pretty damned good weapon under 50 yards.


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## Black Watch (30 May 2005)

Does anyone have the field manual for it, as well as the fnc1 (I turned out to be a collector)


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## Spr.Earl (30 May 2005)

Black Watch said:
			
		

> Did anybody used the Sterling smg???? If so, how was it?


Fun,but very dangerous as it could fire a whole 30 rnds off if you knocked it the wrong way when cocked!!
Been there and had it happen. : 

Easy to clean,simple to use.
It's a house clearing,trench weapon.
Easy to fix for our use,just up date the trigger mechanism,lengthen the barrel a bit for range and voila a good piece of kit.
It's just a blow back system with out all the fancy gas regulators,pistons,etc.
Just up date it and we have a good weapon.


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## TCBF (31 May 2005)

"Fun,but very dangerous as it could fire a whole 30 rnds off if you knocked it the wrong way when cocked!!
Been there and had it happen"

- A clean, serviceable, SMG 9mm C1, would not do that on 'Safe' with the finger off the trigger.

Tom


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## George Wallace (31 May 2005)

Four pages on the Sterling and we have bounced from one extreme to the other and mix and matched a lot of rumours and facts.   :warstory:


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## Spr.Earl (31 May 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> "Fun,but very dangerous as it could fire a whole 30 rnds off if you knocked it the wrong way when cocked!!
> Been there and had it happen"
> 
> - A clean, seviceable, SMG 9mm C1, would not do that on 'Safe' with the finger off the trigger.
> ...


Tom it was on safe,and thank god it was blanks!


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## TCBF (31 May 2005)

"Four pages on the Sterling and we have bounced from one extreme to the other and mix and matched a lot of rumours and facts."

- Hey, you want sacrilege?   I just posted that we should have bought the M48 rather than the Centurion on the MGS thread.   See you in Pet next Monday night.   ;D

"Tom it was on safe,and thank god it was blanks!"

- Another bloody NS SMG!     ;D

Tom


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## Black Watch (18 Jun 2005)

was the firing pin that sensitive?


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## 1feral1 (18 Jun 2005)

Black Watch said:
			
		

> was the firing pin that sensitive?



The FP on the C1 SMG is fixed, that being machined on to the bolt. All one piece, with the only moving part on the entire bolt is the extractor.


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## TCBF (20 Jun 2005)

"I once dropped my M242 25mm autocannon, and it ran dry both the primary and secondary bins - 150 rounds of C-137 APFSDS-T and 60 rounds of C-138 FAPDS-T."

There, beat THAT you Sterling Story Commandos!

 ;D

(The above was typed with a 120mm TPDS-T dart, used pointy end first.)

Tom


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## KevinB (20 Jun 2005)

Bored aren't you...

 You need a C8CQB  ;D


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## Danjanou (20 Jun 2005)

Old Soldiers + Boredom + Internet access = bad combination ;D


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## Black Watch (20 Jun 2005)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Old Soldiers + Boredom + Internet access = bad combination ;D


new soldiers+CFLRS food+air force instructors=weird bmq


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## TCBF (21 Jun 2005)

"new soldiers+CFLRS food+air force instructors=weird bmq"

-Don't you mean 'weird BMI'?

Tom


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## redleafjumper (21 Jun 2005)

It is a great dis-service to George Patchett and the engineers at Dagenham to imply that the Sterling's reliable trigger system and the Ruffel pattern Canadian trigger would fail like that of the Sten gun when dropped or tossed when that failing is something that they were precisely designed to prevent.  While mechanical parts can fail, it would be a great surprise to me that a Sterling would disharge its entire mag when tossed into a room.  I do prefer the British built magazines to the Canadian ones, the British ones just seem to feed better, as well as hold more rounds.
The Sterling C1, or Mark 4 if you prefer, with its fixed firing pin is state of the art in advanced primer ignition (API) and a very reliable as well as accurate firearm.


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## Lance Wiebe (21 Jun 2005)

Redleafjumper, I couldn't agree more!

The SMG could fire off a round unintentionally.  Notice the "a" before round.  With the action forward, the bolt could be forced backward by a sharp enough blow, far enough to pick up a round and fire it.  After the first round, however, the bolt would recoil far enough to engage the sear.  There was at least one fatality caused by this, in 1970.

The SMG would not, could not, empty its mag with nobody pulling the trigger, barring a catastrophic and total breakdown of the trigger mechanism.  Also, the British mags were superior to ours in terms of reliability, ours were cheaper, and it showed.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Jun 2005)

Exactly what I said on Page 3. Round and round we go!  ;D


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## AmmoTech90 (21 Jun 2005)

As an FYI, there were also certain lots of 9mm Cdn Mk1 that could result in double taps (when the weapon was on repetition).  Don't have the blue sheets infront of me so I can't give the exact cause but it was from some (not all) lots.
I do know that some trigger mechs were quite worn.  In 1990 a fellow standing next to me had an AD when he cocked his SMG.  It may or may not have been on safe, but that still doesn't excuse the three round burst of blank that happened when he released the cocking handle.  I know he didn't have his finger on the trigger though.


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## 1feral1 (21 Jun 2005)

Lance Wiebe said:
			
		

> Redleafjumper, I couldn't agree more!
> 
> The SMG could fire off a round unintentionally.   Notice the "a" before round.   With the action forward, the bolt could be forced backward by a sharp enough blow, far enough to pick up a round and fire it.   After the first round, however, the bolt would recoil far enough to engage the sear.   There was at least one fatality caused by this, in 1970.
> 
> .



The C1 SMG when the changer lever was to 'S', locked the bolt in the forward position to avoid any ADs, but if the change lever was at R or A, with the bolt closed and rds in the mag, yes a sharp blow would enable the bolt to go back by inertia, sometimes far enough to spick up a rd, and fire it, then re-cock itself waiting to dischargge antoerh rd.

As I have mentioned in another post, the trigger mechs for the Cdn C1 and the UK L3A3 are two different things, and interchange only as complete components in each wpn.

As for advanced primer ignition, basically all open bolt firing SMGs with fixedd firing pins have this, including the STEN. The ctg is fired before being seated fully into the chamber.
Cheers,

Wes


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## CH1 (26 Jun 2005)

As to adressing muzzle climb,  Why on God's green earth did this person forget his auto wpns drill?

Wesley, correct me if I'm wrong, but sop's for auto wpns, was to squeeze & release in bursts, not hold till mag is MT.  It's hard enough to support auto wpns in the field, not ot mention BBl heat, muzzle climb, etc.

It's been a long day since the day of watching .50 rnds go up the spout, & melting down BBLs.

There was a question about 9mm trace.  It used to be quite common in Canada.  For fun, against RO's, we used to even put the odd 1 thru the Hi-power (not advisable).  Last ones I used, were on an open house demo, in the Patchett @ CFS beaverlodge.

Cheers


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## 1feral1 (26 Jun 2005)

Short bursts, three to five rds, no more. Anything longer than that would get you spanked by the RSO/RCO without hesitation.

Most of a standard range prac was on R anyways, with a few bursts on A, and up close 25M or less, but the wpn was designed for close range personal protection anyways, like a pistol, even though one could get rds on NATO Fig 11's at 100 metres if he tried and the wpn was zeroed to him.

For history's sake the front sight used on the CAL designed C1 SMG was the same on the rifles C1 and C2, and the adjusting screw was the same one used for the arctic trigger guard on the rifle also.

I still have a 1970's dated SMG pam (thick green covered one) in my 'pam' library, which has all the range pracs still in it, and all the other info too. Simialr to the same type for the C1 and C2 rifles, remember the one that has the bayonet drills in it   ;D

As for the UK 34rd (not 32) mags, these did NOT appear in the CF supply system until the last few yrs when the C1 SMG was still in service. The Cdn 30rd mags stocks (reserves/war stock etc) were depleted, so units would end up with Cdn 10, 30, and 34 rd mags the CF had obtained from the UK. Before that anyone with UK mags had obtained them thru the UK system by either trading or scrounging or 'off beat' issue.

None of the mag parts wre interchangeable, and had to be used as complete components only. However another freaky C1/Sterling fact. STEN 32rd mags would fit in the Sterling, but Sterling mags of any size would NOT fit into the STEN. I may have mentioned this before somewhere on here.

Cheers,

Wes


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## redleafjumper (26 Jun 2005)

The reason for the lack of magazine interchangeability was that since the Sterling magazine was such a tremendous improvement over the STEN mag, the folks at Dagenham were afraid that armies with STENs would just buy new Sterling mags to use in old STENS and not new Sterlings.  Conversely, they wanted people to see the Sterling as more flexible than the STEN, so the Sterling was, as Wesley stated, designed to take the STEN mags.


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## mainerjohnthomas (27 Jun 2005)

It may be unprofessional, but I loved the Stirling.  That was the neatest toy the CF ever gave me to play with.  The FN was a better weapon, and yes when the C7 came out you could get better accuracy with a similar fire rate, but I will always love the Stirling.  You could fire it like a pistol, for a 3 round burst it was rock steady, the recoil on it may as well have been from a pellet gun.  It had barely more moving parts than a brick, and you could abuse the heck out of it and it would still fire (except that one notable gentleman who left his on the pavement for the M113 to run over).  It was the most fun of all the weapons I've ever used.  Its accuracy was better than a pistol, but I always thought that the 200m sight was really gilding the lilly.  The CF introduced far deadlier submachine guns before I got out, but none of them were as much fun as the Stirling.  PS- anybody else do the beer can drill?  The one where you shoot below the beer can so the gravel  chases the beer can up the hill, but without popping the can?  Like I said, it was a fun little toy, and great for close quarters.


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## TCBF (27 Jun 2005)

Easy to jump with:  Fold the stock, 80lb test cord the sucker to your ruck, and off you go.

Tom


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## CH1 (28 Jun 2005)

Ah! For the days when there was ammo to play with.  Used to chase cans with both FN's, & on occasion when nobody was looking the .30 GPMG.  Oh yeah don't forget cutting firewood.

What a rush!

Cheers


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## Pearson (1 Aug 2005)

all it takes is a very very dirty weapon, then the sear cant engage......
I have had it happen with a .22 semi-auto

see hear the results of a dirty or broken sear

[Moderator edit - not an appropriate link]

the look in his eyes.............priceless


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## Bartok5 (2 Aug 2005)

Frankie said:
			
		

> all it takes is a very very dirty weapon, then the sear cant engage......
> I have had it happen with a .22 semi-auto



Frankie,

No offence, but I call utter bull-shite.   If any member of the CF within my sphere of influence ever allowed a C1 SMG to become so filthy that it suffered a catastrophic failure of the trigger mechanism, then that soldier would have been in a serious world of hurt.   It would take quite literally unfathomable volumes of fire under field conditions to render the trigger mech on a C1 SMG unreliable due to fouling (vice parts wear).   The only time I personally came close (in 6 years of using an issued SMG) was in Yakima in the early 1980's after Mount St Helens had blown and the training area was covered in abrasive volcanic ask.   A helicopter rotor-wash would blow all kinds of unwelcome grit into a weapon's working parts.   Even under those conditions, the trigger mech of my C1 SMG never failed.   True, the bolt would not slam forward when the trigger was pressed (it ground to a halt half-way forward), but the trigger mech was fine.   After all, there was only 1/4" of access around the receiver's sear cut for fouling to enter the trigger mechanism.

Some folks here seem to be confusing personal C1 SMG experience with unsubstantiated wives-tales concerning the "c@ck and throw" Sten SMG.   Even the notion that you could c@ck the latter and throw it into a room expecting a trigger mechanism failure and a 30-round "party favour" are patently ludicrous.   I own a Canadian Long Branch Sten Mk 2, and it's trigger mechanism is utterly reliable.   The sear is rock-solid.

This business of slamming the butt-stock of a C1 SMG on the ground and having the bolt travel back under inertia just enough to pick up a round from the mag and fire it?   Absolutely true.   BUT - only if you were such a poorly trained idiot that you did not engage the "Safe" setting on the trigger mech, which would infallibly lock the bolt in either the forward (closed) or rear (open) positions.   In other words, the ONLY way that the C1 SMG could unintentionally fire from a closed bolt (eg. loaded/made ready) is if the operator was sufficiently dense or untrained that the selector switch were not properly placed on "Safe" IAW the extant handling drills.

In summary, there was NOTHING unsafe about the C1 SMG other than ill-trained operators.   Full-stop.   I happen to personally own one, and had the pleasure of carrying one on repeated occasions during my 6 years in the Reserves.   It was a fine 2nd Generation SMG.   The only "accidents" that I ever saw were a sole function of user inadequacy.

For what it's worth....


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## mudgunner49 (3 Aug 2005)

Mark C said:
			
		

> Frankie,
> 
> No offence, but I call utter bull-shite.   If any member of the CF within my sphere of influence ever allowed a C1 SMG to become so filthy that it suffered a catastrophic failure of the trigger mechanism, then that soldier would have been in a serious world of hurt.   It would take quite literally unfathomable volumes of fire under field conditions to render the trigger mech on a C1 SMG unreliable due to fouling (vice parts wear).   The only time I personally came close (in 6 years of using an issued SMG) was in Yakima in the early 1980's after Mount St Helens had blown and the training area was covered in abrasive volcanic ask.   A helicopter rotor-wash would blow all kinds of unwelcome grit into a weapon's working parts.   Even under those conditions, the trigger mech of my C1 SMG never failed.   True, the bolt would not slam forward when the trigger was pressed (it ground to a halt half-way forward), but the trigger mech was fine.   After all, there was only 1/4" of access around the receiver's sear cut for fouling to enter the trigger mechanism.
> 
> ...



...Thus endeth the lesson...

And to think, it only took us 5 pages to get to this point!!!



blake


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## Danjanou (3 Aug 2005)

mudgunner49 said:
			
		

> ...Thus endeth the lesson...
> 
> And to think, it only took us 5 pages to get to this point!!!
> 
> ...



Yeah Blake but it was a nice stroll down memory lane for some of us old farts. ;D

Mark, small world must have just missed you in Yakima, I was there doing the final part of my Mortar course there just before Mount St Helen's blew.


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## Slim (3 Aug 2005)

Slim said:
			
		

> Good weapon for room clearing...Just cock it, then toss it in the room needing to be cleared and close the door. The gun would do the rest. (famous for accidental discharges) ;D
> 
> I did enjoy shooting and carrying that weapon though.
> 
> Slim



 ;D


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## Old Ranger (4 Aug 2005)

Unless I missed it, anyone make the mistake of utilising the "winter" trigger?

Waiting to drive onto a dog and pony, thought I'd rest my SMG on my lap...thank God for Blanks.

Almost became a Tropperette.  Stupid is as Stupid does...

Luckily my RSM lookin for Blood bought "the Iltis Backfired bit." ;D


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## TCBF (4 Aug 2005)

"Unless I missed it, anyone make the mistake of utilising the "winter" trigger?

Waiting to drive onto a dog and pony, thought I'd rest my SMG on my lap...thank God for Blanks."

-I never had any problem with it.  I put it on 'SAFE'.  Try it.

Tom


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## mainerjohnthomas (4 Aug 2005)

The Stirling SMG is a beautiful weapon, and I loved using it.  It was an idiot simple utterly reliable weapon system when it came to firing.  When it came to not firing, its safety had its blond moments.  You could always rely on the Stirling to fire when you wanted it to.  You could rely on the Stirling not to fire when on safe unless you a) dropped it, b)drove over a bump c)dropped prone d)had broken a mirror in the last seven years and/or incurred the wrath of the RSM in the last month.  When the Stirling decided to have a blond moment, you get to find out what a randomly directed 9mm can do for curing boredom, attracting attention from enemy troops and the (more dangerous) senior NCOs.


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## Old Ranger (6 Aug 2005)

-I never had any problem with it.   I put it on 'SAFE'.   Try it.

Tom

[/quote]

Never had a problem with the safety after that, it was a good wake up call.


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## geo (6 Aug 2005)

Visited the 12RBC last week. Their museum was open and lo and behold..... a chrome plated SMG!!! the only thing that was missing was the Imperial startrooper body armour from Star wars 

SMG as some have pointed out did have it's moments. in 70, Cpl on sentry in Ottawa jumpod over the tailgate of a 3/4, weapon fired and the sentry was toast (RIP)

On the range, in the hands of a recruit, the damn thing was dangerous. Had one fella think he had a jam, je started to turn around with the SMG leveled - as people scrambled to take cover the dang thing went off........ saw a Sgt flying horizontal & brought said defective Recruit down to the ground.


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## Bartok5 (6 Aug 2005)

Old Ranger said:
			
		

> -I never had any problem with it.   I put it on 'SAFE'.   Try it.



For every purported "horror story" involving the C1 SMG, I refer you to the above quote.   Couldn't have said it better myself.   With very (and I mean VERY) few exceptions, every non-intentional discharge with the C1 SMG was a case of operator-induced error.   Whether those incidents were due to inadequate user training or fundamental ineptitude is not for me to say.   What I can say (personally owning a C1 SMG to this day), is that it is one of the safest open-bolt SMGs in the world.   

If you have/had an unintentional discharge that cannot be traced to the EXTREMELY RARE mechanical dysfunction of the trigger mech?   Well then, you were an arse-clown with no clue about handling automatic weapons.   The C1 SMG is the safest open-bolt SMG in history.   The "Safe" setting on the selector-switch locks the bolt either closed on an empty chamber, or open on a loaded gun.   There is no "middle ground".   If your bolt rode back under inertia as the result of a butt-end impact and chambered/fired a round?   You were a negligent idiot who did not have the firearm on "Safe", but had a magazine loaded.   How frigging stupid is that?!?   

The C1 SMG is/was a highly reliable and very safe weapon in the hands of TRAINED users.   Perhaps that was the fundamental problem that some folks here are talking about - untrained users weilding lethal automatic weapons.   If that is the case, then it seems that some things haven't changed much in the past 20 years....


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## Black Watch (7 Aug 2005)

"personally owning a C1 SMG to this day"

Where did you get it?


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## 1feral1 (8 Aug 2005)

Not to devulge too much personal info here, as this is the INet, but Mate, he bought it from me back in 1994 as I was moving to Australia, and that is NO bullshit! I had bought it from the dealer OGT in Swastika Ontario about 1985, and the wpn had came out of Africa before that, but first passing thru an arms clearing house in the UK, then to Canada Customs for inspection, etc. Although it was made by Cdn government's CAL in Ontario in 1959, the serial number 0S8XXX had never been issued to the CF, as this was checked on more than one occasion.

It is/was one of three LEGALLY privately owned C1 SMGs in Canada. All legal and happily registered, yes it had been examined by the RCMP crime lab in Regina initally upon registration and again in 1991 when an over zealous CPL MOC421 from Moose Jaw found out I owned one, so after a bit of a shit fight with some IGNORANT and over confident SIU types (and an incompetant hellbent antigun Regina City Policeman) even the 15 Wg MPs finally realised that such can be legally owned along with Cdn T series Inglis Brownings and FN C1A1 rifles. I got an apology from the MCPL who conducted the investigation, and had my property returned.

So, Black Watch (a 21 yr old former Cadet?), by your tone, you sound that owning such is doubtful, well my friend, think again. Try reading the thread as Mark explains some history of the SMG on here. If you would have read the thread in the first place you would not have asked such a stupid question.

Sorry Mark, I had to bite on this, as I hate when people think one is bullshittng, and tend to think that one cannot LEGALLY obtain Canadian government manufactured firearms, as they were not just made for the CF. There is even such firearms privately owned in NZ and in Australian and UK museums. I am sure there are plenty of others in various countries worldwide.

Regards,

Wes


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## geo (8 Aug 2005)

There was always something about the SMG. In the field, many were hung up on tree branch while you took a crap... and subsequently were never found.... searches and SI's were frequent...
Know of one instance where an SMG was lost - our unit was in the same area about 4 wks later -"rusty" weapon chose to show itself. 

With a slew of lost weapons over the years; I can understand SIU & MPs jumping to conclusion about the "appearance" of a Cdn pattern SMG. (can also appreceate concept of making MP eat crow / humble pie) 

Over the years, have seen a number of Aussie FALs in circulation. I thought it was a better weapon with it's heavier barrel.... and you could use the FNC1 body cover/BB Carrier & Breach block. Always prefered our Body cover VS the small ejection port the standard FAL used.

So back to the SMG - a good improvement over the old STEN "plumbers nightmare"
as with any weapon - dangerous in the hands of an amateur BUT entirely serviceable in the hands of someone who knows what he's doing.... IMHO


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## Ex-Dragoon (8 Aug 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> There was always something about the SMG. In the field, many were hung up on tree branch while you took a crap... and subsequently were never found.... searches and SI's were frequent...
> Know of one instance where an SMG was lost - our unit was in the same area about 4 wks later -"rusty" weapon chose to show itself.
> 
> With a slew of lost weapons over the years; I can understand SIU & MPs jumping to conclusion about the "appearance" of a Cdn pattern SMG. (can also appreceate concept of making MP eat crow / humble pie)
> ...



What surprises me is you would actually have been let out of the field without finding this or any weapon lost.....


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## geo (8 Aug 2005)

As I pointed out.... t'was not my unit that lost it..............  we just happened to occupy an area that had been used some weeks/months prior.

This goes back an awful long time ago (sigh) I know the SMG was returned to the unit in question and someone did pay big time..... for the loss of what is now a prohibited weapon and the Ummm.... finder's fee.


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## Acorn (9 Aug 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> Over the years, have seen a number of Aussie FALs in circulation. I thought it was a better weapon with it's heavier barrel.... and you could use the FNC1 body cover/BB Carrier & Breach block. Always prefered our Body cover VS the small ejection port the standard FAL used.



Control of non-serialed wpn parts was shakey "in the day." I know a guy that basically "Canadianized" his Aussie FAL in the early '80s - body cover, BB carrier, handgurds and - erm - C2 change lever and trigger parts. A 7.62 NATO rifle on full auto is hard to control (I think  ;D)

Of course he no longer has it if he's living in Canada as it is a prohibited weapon and he doesn't have the appropriate documentation.

The SMG is, as others mention, a safe weapon when properly handled. Unfortunately there are some who can't seem to handle it properly. I had the old "recruit waving SMG with finger on trigger and change lever on A" happen to me as a range NCO once. It focusses the mind, I'll tell you. 

I have some other stories, but I'll save them for another time and place.

Acorn


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Aug 2005)

Well Mark C only reiterated, in somewhat stronger terms, what a couple of us have been saying all along. If you treat it right, no problems. If you play with it, and don't know what your doing, be prepared for the consequences. I think the points been proven, in all the years with the Corps, I've NEVER seen an ND with a SMG, as long as the person was trained properly and followed procedures.


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## Slim (9 Aug 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Well Mark C only reiterated, in somewhat stronger terms, what a couple of us have been saying all along. If you treat it right, no problems. If you play with it, and don't know what your doing, be prepared for the consequences. I think the points been proven, in all the years with the Corps, I've NEVER seen an ND with a SMG, as long as the person was trained properly and followed procedures.



Well thank you all very much...Now I (sniff sniff) fell quite inferior to everyone else, will probably (sniff, sniff) develope a complex and come down with PTSD...All becasue you people think I'm either (sniff, sniff) incompitent or inexperinced!

I don't like you all anymore (sniff,sniff)

Slim ;D


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