# CIC branch buttons for army CIC officers ... what do you think?



## ctjj.stevenson (7 Feb 2005)

Good evening everyone!

I know that I am not an army CIC officer, and therefore am not in the best position to have a recommendation for them, however, I would think that the army CIC officers should follow their traditions from their element, and have a set of CIC branch brass buttons for their uniforms.

I know that an army CIC officer could be spotted from a kilometre away seeing that they have everything to mark them as a CIC officer as compaired to naval and air force CIC officers, however I would believe that this could be a nice idea to show some branch pride. 

However, seeing that cost is also an issue in everything that has to do with uniforms, I would probably propose that these buttons be sold from the CIC regional kit shops (like www.joedrouin.com for the Eastern Region's CIC Officer's Circle) so that military spending will not go nuts by adding new uniform parts for the CIC.   

Do this seem like a good idea.... (an example can be found attached with this message)

Thank you kindly and have a nice day!


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (7 Feb 2005)

I've seen that people are equally interested and not interested by this proposition. I would like to read your reasons please. 

Thank you kindly and good day!


----------



## George Wallace (7 Feb 2005)

Are you out to advertise for Droin Enterprises?


----------



## my72jeep (7 Feb 2005)

As A CIC Officer I have no desire or right to wear buttons, badges, or other affiliated unit stuff if I wanted to wear it I would have joined that unit not the CIC. Every time I turn around  some one is comming up with a new way to show the Military who the Army CIC Officers are. I'm proud to be CIC but please no more CIC branch crap that I must buy.


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (7 Feb 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Are you out to advertise for Droin Enterprises?



Not in so may words ... however, I do believe that it is a great service that is offered by Joe Drouin Enterprises, and I think that it could not hurt anyone really to take a look. They do have some great stuff. 

As for army CIC officers wearing affiliated unit accoutrements, this was a discussion during the late 1970s (as I recall from my CIC history book). It was decided that CIC officers should have their own accoutrements because they a knowledgable in training cadets, and not in the duties of their affiliated units. 

On this note, good day!


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (7 Feb 2005)

As for the CIC history book that I mentioned, it is called _Par devouement_ and it is offered in the Eastern Region's RCIS and I believe that it is in French only. 

The CIC cap badge did not come into existance until 1975 (if I am not mistaken) and before then, CIC officers would wear any insignia that they "wanted," including the old RCN, RCAF or Cadet Services of Canada insignias, the CF recruit cap badge or affiliated unit cap badges. 

In 1975 the badge was large an wasn't liked by CIC officers because of it's look ... and therefore, CIC officers refused to wear it. Later on, the authorities changed them for how they look today. During the time were they changed the CIC cap badge for the present one, an offer was placed on the table to allow army CIC types to wear afflilated unit insignias. However, seeing that the Navy and Air Force CIC officer would have to continue wearing the CIC cap badge, this was seen as unfair. For a little time, army CIC officer did wear affiliated unit insingias, however from 1980 onwards, all CIC officers had to wear the CIC branch insignias. 

I will look back at the book and come back an post more accurate information. This was done from memory therefore I want to double-check my info (as the good student of history that I am).

Good day!


----------



## primer (8 Feb 2005)

ctjj.stevenson  you must really like these buttons here and in cadet-world.com give it up Like MY72jeep said the more I have to buy from the Kit shop the more I hate the Kit Shop


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (8 Feb 2005)

Good morning!

I read the comments of Capt "Primer" and I wanted to say the following to him...

With all due respect sir or ma'am, I had an idea that could have maybe let army CIC officers have something new for themselves. From what I've read in my CIC officer history book, it said (more of less) that CIC army officers should probably one day have their own branch buttons for their uniforms instead of using the general service buttons. That is why I've spent some time to see the opinions of people before I try to learn how I can maybe make a formal request for it. It is understood that I would not have to live through any change because as a naval CIC officer, I would not have to live through the consquences of this change. 

As for Mr. Taylor, here are some of the few points that I could find in my book:

1) It was in 1973 that Rear Admiral Falls wrote a memo discussing about the subject that Army CIC officers were still wearing the Cadet Services of Canada insignia, and that organisation disappeared in 1968 with the creation of the then Cadet Instructors List. 
2) The first CIC cap badge was created by June 1975, however it was the tri-force CIC badge for everyone, and the collar insignias were elemental. This insignia did not please to most CIC officers, and refused to wear it. 
3) In 1977, seeing the discontent within the ranks of the CIC, the first signs were seen that the authorities would change the insignias of CIC officers. 
4) However the same year, after a proposition made, CIC army officers were permitted to wear the affilitated unit badges. However this is for a very short time, because the decision was reversed and now no CIC officer could wear any insignia that is not their own. 

I hope this answers any questions that you may have. 

Good day.


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (8 Feb 2005)

Intelligere said:
			
		

> Intelligere is not a Pte.   Pte Turvey was the "hero" of a book of the same name by Earle Birney which many regard as the "unofficial" history of the branch to which I belong.   I didn't have any questions, Mr. Stevenson.   I surely can't compete with the official history book you have cited, as all I can offer is the 30-yr old perspective of one who was with the CIL in the 1970's.



I am sorry for the mistake, and I made the modification to my original message Mr. Taylor (and this explains how come someone was a officer for many years, and became a private ... it did not seem right). 

Well, that is all. Have a nice day!


----------



## HollywoodHitman (8 Feb 2005)

How would buttons or insignia do anything but signify membership in an organisation or Regiment that they are not a part of?

If you were to wear the insignia, cap badge or Regimental accoutrements of an infantry regiment, people would think you were an infantry officer.........If you were not, but people thought you were, that could be considered dishonest; at any rate you would be misrepresenting yourself. CIC officers wear the same uniform as a commissioned officer in the CF Regs or Reserves. The CIC insignia is designed so that they may be identified as a CIC officer.

I was a cadet years ago. I was quiet happy with and respectful of the officers I had. I could also argue that when I was in Army Cadets, it was still an 'Army' organisation, designed to promote awareness and stimulate an interest in the CF.........

Anyway, I digress.

My $.02


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (8 Feb 2005)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> How would buttons or insignia do anything but signify membership in an organisation or Regiment that they are not a part of?
> 
> If you were to wear the insignia, cap badge or Regimental accoutrements of an infantry regiment, people would think you were an infantry officer.........If you were not, but people thought you were, that could be considered dishonest; at any rate you would be misrepresenting yourself. CIC officers wear the same uniform as a commissioned officer in the CF Regs or Reserves. The CIC insignia is designed so that they may be identified as a CIC officer.
> 
> ...



This is my arguement Master Corporal. CIC officers should be recognised as CIC officers, and should be proud and honoured by this heritage. There was a time in the past were CIC officer wore what they could find, however that was before that they were permitted to have the new green (at the period) CF uniform. And it took 7 years for the CIC insignia to be created. 

I believe that CIC officers should follow the traditions from within the element of their uniform "colour." This is why I am proposing CIC buttons for army CIC officers. Even though it will not do much, I do think that "regimental" buttons looks better on the uniform as compaired to the general service buttons. 

Thank you for your comments, and have a nice day!


----------



## HollywoodHitman (8 Feb 2005)

Your element is denoted by the colour of your uniform. Green for Army, Blue for Air Force etc.

Yes, the generic buttons look less appealing than Regimental insignia, but again, my point is, if you are not for example a member of an Infantry Regiment, why would you want to let people believe that you are? If you join a Regimental Association, you do not become a member of the Regiment, you become an associate member. 

Many units dont let their soldiers or officers wear the cap badge until they have passed their specific qualifications to be in their job. They work very hard to get there and maintain their qualifications, which is what their uniforms in some ways signify. The dress uniform for instance bears witness through trade badges, collar dogs, medals and the likes, your trade quals, branch of service (Inf etc) and tours of duty.

That you wear a uniform and are given a Queens Commission is a fairly big honour and one that is bestowed upon you with very little military training overall......I have seen many CIC officers who do not look professional in their uniforms because there are for instance no fitness requirements that I am aware of.....Or if there are, they are bare minimum standards at best with no mandate to monitor their maintenance.........I know there are CIC officers who are former serving soldiers / officers, however in my experience most are not.

The existing uniform and insignia for the CIC is issued as is because someone in the military establishment felt it was distinct enough and represented the position accordlingy. 

I think CIC Officers hold a valuable position in the community. I spent 5 years in the Cadet system and I look back on them with fondness and am glad for the experiences I had. I think what you do is very important, if done right. That being said, I don't believe you should be allowed to wear the insignia of my Regiment unless you are or were a serving member........

The Cadets on the other hand, should embrace the traditions and values of the Regiments they one day may join. Thats a different topic altogether.


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (8 Feb 2005)

Hi again!

I am wondering one thing on what you said.  Are you thinking that I want the CIC to wear the buttons of affiliated units? That is how I am understanding your text, and that was not what I was proposing. I was proposing a distinict button for CIC army officers, instead of the general service button. 

I also believe that no CIC officer should wear items that is not theirs to wear. We should not pretend to be Canadian Fighter Pilots, or a member of the R22eR or a submariner. We should be proud CIC officers, and respect the job that we do, and I respect what you are saying. 

I am sorry if I used any terminology that could have misrepresented my main point.

Good day Master Corporal!


----------



## HollywoodHitman (8 Feb 2005)

Well said,

I may have read more into your post that you intended. Your argument is well thought out and your intention is much more clear now.

Good Day to you too


----------



## my72jeep (8 Feb 2005)

OK army CIC officers wear brass CIC shoulder tiles on DEU's, cloth CIC's on combats and dress shirts and a CIC cap badge what do we need buttons for. I'm CIC now, I know that, why put on one more useless piece of kit just so every one else knows.this is just my thoughts.


----------



## primer (9 Feb 2005)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> OK army CIC officers wear brass CIC shoulder tiles on DEU's, cloth CIC's on combats and dress shirts and a CIC cap badge what do we need buttons for. I'm CIC now, I know that why put one more useless piece of kit just so every one else knows.this is just my thoughts.



Well said


----------



## PViddy (10 Feb 2005)

I'm quite happy with my unifrom the way it is.  Mind you, us air types don't have "CIC" on our DEU's just our elemental CIC cap badge for distinction.


regards

PV


----------



## Excolis (10 Feb 2005)

the only reason you the air and sea types dont have CIC on their shoulder boards or shoulders, is because it is an army tradition.  as for the phitness testing for CIC, it has changed now.  New applicants wanting to join the CIC have to do the same express test as the reserves.


----------



## PViddy (10 Feb 2005)

> the only reason you the air and sea types dont have CIC on their shoulder boards or shoulders, is because it is an army tradition.  as for the phitness testing for CIC, it has changed now.  New applicants wanting to join the CIC have to do the same express test as the reserves.



I believe that is incorrect. 

 The reason the Army branch wear the CIC accoutrements is because it is tradition (maybe where you got confused) that they wear the same cap insignia as there affiliated units.  The CIC badges help distinguish them from the that unit.  Air and Sea wear CIC cap insignia (rather than an affiliated units), therefore it is not necessary for Air and Sea to wear CIC on epaulettes, collar brass etc. as Reg. and Pres will be able to identify us by that cap insignia.  I am not Army so you Army CIC ladies and gents pound on me if i am wrong  .


New applicants joining the CIC have to go through various courses, same as any other branch of the Military.  The "express test" that you may be referring to is called the Basic Officer Course - Pre Programmed Instructional Package (BOQ - PIP for short).
Every candidate muct study the PIP thten write the PIP test before going on the BOQ course.  Completing the BOQ course with a passing grade is mandatory in order to recieve a Queen's Commision and consequent promottion to 2Lt.  You have 3 years from being enrolled to complete the BOQ course, most do it as soon as they can.


regards

PV


----------



## Bean (10 Feb 2005)

Actually the Express Test is not the PIP but it is a physical fitness evaluation that is required of CF personnel.


----------



## PViddy (10 Feb 2005)

I wish i got to do the fit test that all Reg and Pres get to do at CFRC.  I'd be interested to see how well i do.

PV


----------



## big_castor (10 Feb 2005)

PViddy said:
			
		

> The reason the Army branch wear the CIC accoutrements is because it is tradition (maybe where you got confused) that they wear the same cap insignia as there affiliated units.   The CIC badges help distinguish them from the that unit.   Air and Sea wear CIC cap insignia (rather than an affiliated units), therefore it is not necessary for Air and Sea to wear CIC on epaulettes, collar brass etc. as Reg. and Pres will be able to identify us by that cap insignia.   I am not Army so you Army CIC ladies and gents pound on me if i am wrong



Pviddy,

Army CIC Officer ARE NOT authorized to wear the cap badge of their affiliated units.  Some do it but it's wrong.  A CIC Officer should only wer the insignias of his Branch.

Navy and Air CIC Officer don't wear any other CIC Branch insignias because collar badges and shoulder titles are traditionally not worn on the Navy and Air Force DEU.


----------



## my72jeep (10 Feb 2005)

No CIC officer is authorized to wear any thing from their affiliated unit. the only thing the same is the uniform.I even got flack wearing a EME shirt at PT once but that was just an DS being an idiot.


----------



## PViddy (10 Feb 2005)

Thank you gentleman.  I am an absorbant Ocdt. knowledge sponge!  

PV


----------



## Michael Dorosh (10 Feb 2005)

HollywoodHitman said:
			
		

> How would buttons or insignia do anything but signify membership in an organisation or Regiment that they are not a part of?



But they ARE a part of the Regiment, just like the ladies' auxiliary and the Honourary Colonel.  The latter wears a uniform - wanna tell him he doesn't have a right to it because he's not an infantry officer?

Tell the Quartermaster and the Transport Officer that they shouldn't be in regimental kit as well, while you're at it...

Let's not confuse "battalion" with "regiment"


----------



## my72jeep (10 Feb 2005)

Sorry but I wear the cap badge the shoulder titles now please explain how wearing the buttons are going to make any difference how good of a CIC officer I am. now I break a button I go to supply and get a new one if we go to the CIC buttons thats a private purchase and will cost x$$$$ at the kit shop. sorry I don't make any money doing the cadet thing so will some one stop spending it for me.


----------



## big_castor (10 Feb 2005)

Intelligere,

I can understand you obvious pride in your previous service and you Regiment and you desire to continue to wear the insignias of that unit during your  « second CIC career  ». 

Bt the majority of CIC officer's don't have this kind of career and will for the most part only be members of the CIC Branch. Maybe it's because I'm teaching at the RCIS but I tend to see our Branch in a more  « purplish  » hue, but if I put side by side a Navy, Army and air CIC officer, why should the Army guy be wearing a R22R, Engineer or Medical cap badge ?   He has the same role, the same training has the two other guys.   Except for the colour of the uniform, they do exactly the same thing.   

Some people might feel (I'm not saying that your opinion) that they will lessen the stigma of being a CIC officer if they wear the badge of their affiliated unit.   I think the message it send is that our Branch is so worthless we should hide....   I am proud of my Branch and I accept all the gods an bad thing that go with it.   Being part of (and proud of) a Regimental family doest exclude also being proud on one's particular Branch and displaying that pride.


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (11 Feb 2005)

Squadron CO said:
			
		

> Intelligere,
> 
> I can understand you obvious pride in your previous service and you Regiment and you desire to continue to wear the insignias of that unit during your  « second CIC career  ».
> 
> ...



I just wanted to say that these are inspiring words sir. CIC officers should be proud of what we do because I believe that our job is probably one of the most important in the CF because : a) we are able to shape the lives and help teenagers for the better, b) in smaller areas the CIC officers has to represent the good manners of the CF as a whole, and c) even though it is not our primary duty, we can help the beginnings of a CF career for many young women and men.

Good day!


----------



## Excolis (11 Feb 2005)

Pviddy  if you read my last post i stated that the collar dogs and shoulder titles are not worn by sea and air because it is an army tradition.  that is what i said.   and all CIC will have to go through the express test.  Yes the express test, they have to meet the PT requirments for the CF.  that is a new rule being implimented this year.  CIC will also have a MOC change right now it is 92A 92B 92C.  they will now have an acctuall MOC so when ppl come to write the CF apptitude test, CIC will come up on the list of jobs available.


----------



## Excolis (11 Feb 2005)

PViddy, are you saying your officers wear your affliated units cap badge?  or head dress


----------



## Bean (11 Feb 2005)

H.A.S. just a couple minor corrections, the curent MOC's are 91A, 92A, 93A, but as I understand it you are correct that a new single MOC/MOS for CIC officers is the plan.  As for the Express test and CFAT being a new rule, I think its an old rule re-visitied.  I know when I went from PRes to CIC they had me re-do the CFAT and the full medical like any other officer and that was a good number of years ago.  I'm not sure if that's an issue from one CFRC to another but I think its the right way to go.  I've seen far too many of our fellow officers who can't carry their ruck from a support vehicle to their hooch, let a lone run somewhere, and I think its a bit of a disgrace quite frankly.  

Now on the topic of the buttons, I can't see them making a big enough difference to making a CIC officer feel more part of thier branch than they already do.  I think the general service button is more appropriate to represent our connection the larger CF.  There is always the financial aspect as many have pointed out, but generally, it doesn't seem practicle.  You have to get pretty close to see what the button has on it, and if its a CIC branch button or the gernal service button probably won't be noticed by the majority of those around you if the two are the same colour.  I don't think I've ever looked at an officers buttons other than on an inspection at RCIS.


----------



## PViddy (11 Feb 2005)

> PViddy, are you saying your officers wear your affliated units cap badge?  or head dress



Negative.  I am an Air type.  My only unit is the CIC, wearing authorized acoutrements accordingly.  Our affiliated unit (if we had one) would be a highland infantry regiment that owns the armoury etc. that we parade out of.




> I've seen far too many of our fellow officers who can't carry their ruck from a support vehicle to their hooch, let a lone run somewhere, and I think its a bit of a disgrace quite frankly.



here here!


PV


----------



## ciccapt (14 Feb 2005)

I think that CIC branch buttons for us army CIC officers is a great idea.  Every army unit in the CF, both RegF and PRes, that I have seen have their own regimental buttons, so why not us?  Are we not as proud to be members of the CIC, as others are proud to members of their units?  Are we not good enough, or important enough to have accoutrements the same as our counterparts in the RegF and PRes?

I think by not having our own branch buttons, and displaying the same pride in our chosen branch, that we are purpetuating the myth that we are a sub-standard unit, and therefore sub-standard officers as compared to everyone else.  I say that we should have our branch buttons approved and wear them with pride.


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (15 Feb 2005)

Thank you Captain for your support. 

In about two months, the Eastern Region's CIC Officer Circle will have a meeting of its members, and I will try to see if I can not make the proposition. However, I will propose that these buttons will be an opinional item for Army CIC officers that really want them. I could be wrong, however from some comments that I've heard, it would seem that regimental buttons are usually bought by the regiment's members, and therefore I would think that that would be the same for the CIC. Therefore, to keep harmony with people that are not too interested in having CIC "plastered" all over their uniform, or for those who could not afford them at the moment (seeing that many CIC officers are in school), I think that having this as an opinional item will be the best proposition. 

However, if anyone out there could confirm that regimental buttons have to be bought at a kit shop, I would appreciate that (or I will just have to go to ASU Longue-Pointe's tailor to find out)!

Have a nice day!


----------



## my72jeep (15 Feb 2005)

All non issue regimental accoutrement's are to be payed for out of non public funds( IE out of your pocket or the mess canteen funds, not government money) and if buttons are brought in it will be all wear or none the military does not go for if you want to wear them go ahead if you don't thats ok to.


----------



## Eowyn (15 Feb 2005)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> All non issue regimental accoutrement's are to be payed for out of non public funds( IE out of your pocket or the mess canteen funds, not government money) and if buttons are brought in it will be all wear or none the military does not go for if you want to wear them go ahead if you don't thats ok to.



I don't know if that's the way of the world with the CIC, but in the Reserves, troops are encouraged to buy their branch buttons (Log/EME) but they don't have to.  It is common to see the issue LFC buttons and the Branch button on different people.


----------



## Zedic_1913 (15 Feb 2005)

I've heard some braches (specifically Log) are hard to acquire buttons for.  A friend of mine is a cadet Log RSM (with CF DEUs) she just got her log buttons for it recently (and has had the DEUs for sometime now).


----------



## Eowyn (15 Feb 2005)

Zedic_1913 said:
			
		

> I've heard some braches (specifically Log) are hard to acquire buttons for.   A friend of mine is a cadet Log RSM (with CF DEUs) she just got her log buttons for it recently (and has had the DEUs for sometime now).



Log buttons aren't that hard to get.  If you're not close to a base, try the Log Branch kitshop.  http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/logbranch/Kitshop/kitsh_e.asp


----------



## ctjj.stevenson (15 Feb 2005)

I had to go by Longue-Pointe today, and I did ask the question to a Corporal at the supply store. He did tell me that regimental buttons have to be bought with non-public funds. Therefore, when I will make my proposition, I will ask that it is not an obligation to get them. It would not be fair for Army CIC officers to have to buy kit that Navy or Air Force CIC officer do not need. And seeing that we are only paid 23 days a years for 150 days of work, well it could not be obligied on people too. 

Good day!


----------



## my72jeep (15 Feb 2005)

Eowyn said:
			
		

> I don't know if that's the way of the world with the CIC, but in the Reserves, troops are encouraged to buy their branch buttons (Log/EME) but they don't have to.   It is common to see the issue LFC buttons and the Branch button on different people.



Read the CF dress regs it states what I just said I've had this argument when we went to the cloth and brass shoulder titles and they told me to wear them and tyred to make me pay for them. same thing as with the cannex wind breakers its a cash item and no one can order you to buy and wear them.


----------



## Zedic_1913 (15 Feb 2005)

Eowyn said:
			
		

> Log buttons aren't that hard to get.   If you're not close to a base, try the Log Branch kitshop.   http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/logbranch/Kitshop/kitsh_e.asp


Interesting, looks like she didn't know where to look.  Fortunatly I was able to get my ONT R buttons easily from my regiments kit shop.


----------

