# Foreign Postings



## zorro (20 Feb 2008)

Just wondering if anyone here has any experience with foreign postings such as embassies, NATO HQ, exchange postings. That type of thing. 

Are these positions equally available to all members of the CF? IE. Would an Airforce Officer have the same opportunities as a Navy Officer given their qualifications were similar?


----------



## dapaterson (20 Feb 2008)

Each posting is different.  Exchanges are 1 for 1  - we give, say, an ARtillery officer to the Brits and get one of the same in return.  Embassies have a variety of positions - some trade specific, some environment specific, others for any trade at a particular rank.  NATO or UN postings are the same - it depends on the requirement.  If it's the Canadain Naval Attaché in London, England, you can bet an Army Logistics officer won't hold the position.


----------



## Redeye121 (20 Feb 2008)

Yeah I am currently posted in Belgium where NATO HQ and SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) is. I know for NATO postings the jobs usually relate to something you have a lot of knowledge about, or something related to your trade. Because lets face it they are not going to send a unqualified guy over here to represent Canada at NATO HQ.  For example right now there are a lot of admin and support trades over here. You wont see very many infantry guys over here, even though one RCR guy is here.


----------



## zorro (20 Feb 2008)

Very interesting..

Dapaterson, at what rank/level of experience are individuals generally eligible for such positions? I assume it again relates to the position being applied for, but is there a general rule of thumb? Captain and up?

Thanks for the input.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Feb 2008)

There are MPs at many embassies, mostly Sgt/WOs as I recall.  The senior liaision officers are LCols and above, with some staff - mostly majors, as I recall, though some RMS clerks and Capts for support as well.  The Canadian Defence Attachés are different ranks depending on a number of factors, all LCol and above (I think). 

The exchange positions vary; your career manager would be best placed to advise you on what positions are out there, when they will be free, and what you can do to best position yourself for one.  (Sometimes, it's just dumb luck)


----------



## Nfld Sapper (20 Feb 2008)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are MPs at many embassies, mostly Sgt/WOs as I recall.  The senior liaision officers are LCols and above, with some staff - mostly majors, as I recall, though some RMS clerks and Capts for support as well.  The Canadian Defence Attachés are different ranks depending on a number of factors, all LCol and above (I think).
> 
> The exchange positions vary; your career manager would be best placed to advise you on what positions are out there, when they will be free, and what you can do to best position yourself for one.  (Sometimes, it's just dumb luck)



Wonder what chance a Reservist would have in snagging one of these positions.


----------



## Redeye121 (20 Feb 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Wonder what chance a Reservist would have in snagging one of these positions.



I would guess that there would be a very small chance, if any at all.


----------



## zorro (20 Feb 2008)

For those fortunate enough to secure these types of positions, what consideration is given to family members? Does the CF move your spouse/dependents? What about housing? A car?

I'm probably getting way too specific for where I'm at right now, just really interested in the potential.


----------



## BernDawg (20 Feb 2008)

I know a couple of guys that were posted to Moscow and their families went as well.  They lived in a secured compound and the kids went to the "American School" via secured bus.  All in all they both enjoyed it very much and travelled all over Europe on their time off.
One was an MP and the other was an electrician.


----------



## dapaterson (20 Feb 2008)

Like everything in the military, it depends.  Some are proper postings with all the benefits that accrue; others are restricted postings, where you can't bring family or F&E.  In some housing is provided, in others you're on the economy.  Depending on the security situation you may be completely autonomous (think New York City), or restricted to a guarded compound.

Reservists whose work or studies take them to the UK, Australia on New Zealand may be able to continue parading with the Reserve forces of those countries; a variety of agreements are in place.  For the full-time positions, again, everyone now "It Depends".  If a Reservist holds particular skills that would be required they may well be considered for a position.  There is also one Reserve exchange position with the United States Army Reserve where reserve majors are swapped.


----------



## aesop081 (21 Feb 2008)

zorro said:
			
		

> For those fortunate enough to secure these types of positions, what consideration is given to family members? Does the CF move your spouse/dependents? What about housing? A car?
> 
> I'm probably getting way too specific for where I'm at right now, just really interested in the potential.



I think you are getting way ahead of yourself here......


----------



## zorro (21 Feb 2008)

Granted.

Hence; "I'm probably getting way too specific for where I'm at right now, just really interested in the potential."

Key: really interested.


----------



## Redeye121 (21 Feb 2008)

They're a great posting to come by. You get to experience another culture and travel the world. If you ever did get presented with an opportunity like a overseas posting it is so worth it I cannot describe it.

Red


----------



## garb811 (21 Feb 2008)

Some Embassy info based on the "usual" loadout.  Different Embassies may vary:

CDA and ACDA:  BGen/Col/LCol.  BGen and LCol are normally at Embassies with multiple Defence Attaches, although it has happened where LCols go to a one CDA Embassy if a Col isn't available and the LCol is doing a cross-posting.  The huge Embassies like Washington and London have a bigger staff but I've never been to either so can't comment on exact ranking there.  Any MOS can fill the CDA and ACDA positions, I've been at missions with Cbt Arms, CSS, Navy, Air Force...
CDA AA:  Sgt - huge missions have more than one, probably reflecting a normal OR setup
CDA Ops:  Sgt - not all posts

MSG:  Single man post - WO although Sgts may fill if WOs are not available.  Multi-man posts - WO, MCpl OR WO, MCpl, Cpl(s).  Kabul is a different beast than the rest

CE:  Two positions I know of, 1 Sgt and 1 MWO

Tour Lengths:  For CDA it appears 2 years with the possibility of 2 x 1 year extensions is the norm.  For MSG, 2 + 1 + 1 is the norm unless you go to a high risk missions at which point it is 1 year, period.

Family:  99% of the Embassies you can take your family.  This may or may not include same sex partners.  Extended family who are dependent may also be eligible for diplomatic accreditation.

Spousal Employment:  This is not guaranteed.  Many posts have no jobs available to spouses due to language, local laws or non-portability of professional credentials.  The Embassy is also unable to provide any real meaningful employment in most locations except for perhaps 1-2 positions.  Most spousal positions available at Embassies are generally at the entry level (such as preparing Immigration files) or menial level (such as escorting local contractors).

Accommodation:  If you go to the US you are responsible to secure your own accommodation.  Anyplace else you live where the Housing Committee assigns you.  As stated this can be a lone apartment in a building, a guarded compound (maybe located with the Embassy, maybe not) or a house.  It is possible to go to an Embassy on IR.  You pay Shelter Share and Utility Share.

Schooling:  If the local public school system is similar to what your kids would get in Ottawa, you use the public system.  If it is so dissimilar that your kids would be unable to integrate into it or would not be able to reintegrate into Canada, DND will pay to have your kids attend a school which will allow them to do this.  If a suitable school isn't available at your post, you can send your kids to boarding school in Canada or a 3rd location.

Language Training:  CDA staff get 8-10 months in Ottawa prior to posting if going to a non-English or French location.  Spouses are eligible to attend a certain amount of that.  MSG do not receive any language training prior to posting.  Once on post, MSG language training is dependent upon the post funding it.  Some posts do, some don't.

Car:  You can apply for permission to send a vehicle but the Ambassador must sign off on it.  Some countries do not allow you to bring a car as a matter of policy.  You can also purchase a car tax exempt locally and there are normally a ton of "diplomatic sale only" used cars on the block.  The problem with taking a North American car with you is availability of parts and qualified personnel to repair it.  Adds a bit to the repair bill to have a quarter panel shipped around the world after an accident.  You are also required to either take any car you have not paid duty and taxes on, sell it to another diplomat OR pay the duty and taxes prior to disposal before you depart the post.  This may also apply to foreign brand vehicles which are assembled in Canada.  The parts may or may not be the same even though you have the same model of vehicle.

Pets:  Subject to local laws, you can bring pets and CFIRP will pay for that out of your custom portion.

Medical/Dental:  If not to the Canadian standard (or too expensive) you will be Medevaced out for serious issues.  Same goes for your family.  You have to front the money for medical treatment you receive anyplace which is not a CF or Allied facility and seek reimbursement through DND or PSHCP.  This can be VERY expensive (particularly if it is a MedEvac) and DND will give you an advance when possible.

Mail:  All Embassies are eligible to have legal documents, bills etc to post via white bag.  Some posts are eligible to receive mail via unclassified diplomatic shipments.  For those posts with this privilege this includes a set weight for parcels and unlimited letters.  They can also send letters, photographs and cards back postage free to anywhere in Canada.  Unlike the CF postal system, you are unable to send parcels, CDs/DVDs back via white bag.  Posts without "parcel privileges" must have personal mail sent via the International postal system.  If you are lucky enough to be posted close to a Unit with a CFPO address, you can make use of that.

PT:  As just announced via CANFORGEN, no longer exempt.  If the Embassy has a fitness facility of ANY sort, that is what you use.  If no facilities are present then you will be reimbursed the cost of a gym membership.

Taxes:  You are not subject to local taxes such as VAT.  In most cases you pay up front then submit a claim to the host government

AOR:  Many posts are responsible for more than one country.  In these instances you would be accredited in each of those countries and do TD there as required.

Promotion:  If you get promoted on Post and it would result in an over-ranking, you are normally posted that APS, even if you are only completing your first year.  There have been instances where appointments to MCpl have been deferred until Dec to allow the member to complete their 2nd year and members of the CDA staff MAY be allowed to stay over-ranked with the concurrence of their Career Manager.

PERs:  If you have a CF supervisor, they write your PER.  If you have a DFAIT supervisor, they write your PER which can be...interesting to say the least.

Chain of Command:  The CDA is not within the MSGs chain of command.  MSGs are seconded to DFAIT and report to the Head Of Mission via the Mission Security Officer.  MSGU does have an HQ element located in DFAIT in Ottawa and MSGU now belongs to the CFMP Group.  

Anything I missed you're interested in for use in 15 years time?


----------



## benny88 (21 Feb 2008)

Great post garb. Perhaps I'll be searching the archives for it in 15 or 20 years, thanks.


----------



## bartbandyrfc (21 Feb 2008)

zorro said:
			
		

> Granted.
> 
> Hence; "I'm probably getting way too specific for where I'm at right now, just really interested in the potential."
> 
> Key: really interested.



zorro,

I see you're air log and an OCdt, so I can tell you about a few more options beyond exchanges and attaché billets.  However you must realize that you have a very long way to go before you can compete for one of these jobs.  First a caveat.  I am not air log, but I served some five years in Europe so I know about some of the bean counter positions over there ;D

There are a number of positions you can compete for with NATO or as part of the staff at CF Support Unit Europe (CFSUE).  First I will speak about one job I know of in NATO, at the Canadian Contingent, NATO Airborne Early Warning Force (CCNAEWF).  There is a job there as a Log Major that is an extremely good position for the air loggies.  It is highly competitive to get this posting, as every air log major wants it.  The position is very interesting on a professional level, and you enjoy the great experience of living in Europe.  Those posted to this position can take their families and there are very good benefits that go along with it (benefits provided under the provisions of Military Foreign Service Regulations).  You can consult these benefits here:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/engraph/cbi_chapter-10_e.asp?sidesection=6

The positions at CFSUE include a Captain's position in the role of CFSUE Ops O.  Again, competitive and hard to get.  Other loggie positions are available as the Commander of CFSUE, which is at the LCol/Cdr rank, and a full Colonel's billet at SHAPE in Casteau Belgium as the Senior Staff Officer Movements.  Obviously you have some years to go before you get to this rank level.

These are the positions that I know of.  As a point of advice: if you want these jobs you are going to have to wait a while, and work really hard while you wait.  Each of these jobs require you to be experienced, highly competitive in your peer group, and lucky.

I wish you the best of luck in your future.

BB


----------



## benny88 (22 Feb 2008)

Zorro,

    Pretty decent answers in this thread eh? Hopefully not Air Log for too much longer , but if so, these sound like some sweet postings. Good luck dude.


Benny


----------



## dwalter (22 Feb 2008)

On the topic of specific trades on foreign postings; what kinds of postings abroad would be available down the road for an INT O? I would guess something at the embassy level more than likely, but what about UN missions?


----------



## dapaterson (22 Feb 2008)

I believe the INT branch are considered specialist officers, who receive GSO pay. That means that you can only be posted to INT O positions, not to positions labelled for ANY trade. That limits the number of possible positions to fill.


----------



## garb811 (22 Feb 2008)

CFAO 15-3  defines a specialist officers as Chaplain, Dental, Dental Associate, Legal, Medical, Medical Associate, Music, Nursing, Social Work, Personnel Selection, and Training Development.  To fill an ATR slot though your Branch has to be in agreement and it does happen that some "specialized" nonspecialist officers are sent as CDAs when it benefits the Branch in question.  ie. we have a MPO in Berlin as the CFA, but the reason for that is he merited a promotion to Col but he did not win the competition for CFPM.  He applied for and was selected for the CDA position which solved a problem for the Branch so they were more than happy to release him.

Of more importance in the case of an Int O is whether or not the host country would accept one as the CDA.  Not too many would be keen on that for obvious reasons and, to be honest, it would be a waste of the Int Os skills and training as their primary purpose is not collection.


----------



## zorro (22 Feb 2008)

Haha.

Thanks garb, great info.

BB very same to you. Gives a good idea of whats out there, even if it is years of experience away...good to have something to work towards.

Though I do actually have a couple of questions after that...

What do CDA and MSG stand for? I'm getting better, but still a little rusty on all the acronyms.


----------



## garb811 (22 Feb 2008)

CDA - Canadian Defence Attache
MSG - Military Security Guard


----------



## zorro (22 Feb 2008)

Thanks again Garb.

BB, in reference to your post, where in Europe is that NATO LOG Major job located? Are all NATO positions generally held in Belgium?

I would assume there are more opportunities for postings with countries that make up the commonwealth, however, can you secure placements pretty much worldwide?

Thanks again for all the info, very inciteful.


----------



## bartbandyrfc (23 Feb 2008)

zorro said:
			
		

> Thanks again Garb.
> 
> BB, in reference to your post, where in Europe is that NATO LOG Major job located? Are all NATO positions generally held in Belgium?
> 
> ...



The NATO log position is with the Canadian Contingent NATO Airborne Early Warning Force (CC-NAEWF).  The posting is to the NATO Airbase at Geilenkirchen Germany. See this: 

http://www.e3a.nato.int/

and this

http://www.cfsue.de/Personnel_Services/WelcometoGk/CCNAEWF_e.htm


I don't have any idea about other locations.  I suggest that you go on the log career manager's on the DIN and search the position list.  Every log position will be listed by title, rank, and location.

BB


----------



## zorro (23 Feb 2008)

Thanks!


----------

