# Difference?



## gosho4 (29 Dec 2003)

Why such a visual difference in The C7,C8 Vs C9?

And what is the main difference in all those guns?

Pros/Cons?


Does the Canadian army have Assault Rifle For close quorter/House to House fighting?


----------



## Fusaki (29 Dec 2003)

The C8 is the shorter (carbine) version of the C7. Apparently it loses accuracy over longer distances, but the benefit is that its easier to handle in confined spaces. The C8 is probably what you‘d want for house-to-house (FIBUA) fighting, but soldiers arn‘t issued the weapon for this specific task.

The C9 is a Light Machine Gun (LMG) used at the section level to provide a higher volume of fire at longer ranges then the C7.

You can fire pictures of the C7 at  The Diemaco Website. I wouldnt know where you‘d get pictures of the C9, but it looks enough like the American M249 SAW that you‘d get the idea if you searched the net a bit.


----------



## Slim (29 Dec 2003)

Good post Fusaki. Good explanation and well thought out.


----------



## gosho4 (29 Dec 2003)

Thanx


----------



## pvandoremalen (29 Dec 2003)

If you go to DND.ca and find the Army website. It has pictures and descriptions of all the weapons used by the CF it will have what your looking for.


----------



## leopard11 (29 Dec 2003)

C9 - Made By FN Herstal (sold under name of minimi (for mini mitrailleuse)) - 5.56mm Light Machine Gun  http://www.fnherstal.com/html/Index.htm 

C7A1 - Made by Diemaco  -   5.56 Rifle  http://www.diemaco.com/sal-rifle%20C7FT.htm 

C8 - Made by Diemaco - 5.56 Carbine  http://www.diemaco.com/sal-carbine%20C8FT.htm


----------



## chrisf (29 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by GD:
> [qb] Why such a visual difference in The C7,C8 Vs C9?
> 
> And what is the main difference in all those guns?
> ...


- The visual difference is because they‘re different weapons.

- C7 = Standard personal weapon across the armed forces weapon when operational requirements don‘t nessiscitate a different weapon.

  C8 = Shortened version of C7, issued to people operating within confined spaces, such as armored vehicle crews, and to anyone who needs a lighter or shorter weapon.

  C9 = Light machine gun. Designed to provide automatic fire support, more geared towards offensive fire (Though perfectly capable of defensive fire), as opposed to the C6 light machine gun, which is geared more towards defensive fire.

As to CQB (Close quarter battle) that‘s different the FIBUA (Fighting in a built up area, house to house fighting). 

The C7 (And I assume the C8, though to be honest, I‘ve never used one) can be fixed with a bayonet when nessascary for close quarters battle. It‘s also capable of automatic fire for dispersing and ambush. That being said, assuming it‘s a situation you have sufficient time and planning to prepare for (Say search and seizure operations by the navy) MP5 Sub-machine guns are used assuming it‘s ONLY short term.

For FIBUA, the C7 is perfectly effective, though a C8 might be preferable.

All around the C7 is an excellent and capable general purpose weapon. Capable of accurate fire out to 300 metres, effective section fire out to 600 meters, it‘s also light weight, has a reasonably large magazine, capable of automatic fire. The only real flaw is the lack of stopping power of the 5.56MM NATO round, but it works.

The only common situation where it‘s difficult to use is from vehicles, and a C8 would definitly be preferable here.


----------



## Thompson_JM (30 Dec 2003)

Especially in an Iltis...  

I personally wish Truckers could get C-8s they would definatly be usefull to us, but combat arms do get priority for obvious reasons.


----------



## chrisf (30 Dec 2003)

Well, it‘s simple lack of planning that everyone who should have a C8 doesn‘t have a C8 (We sig ops ought to have them, MSE ops ought to have them, etc). From what I understand, there are no where enough in the system. But that‘s life... if everything we needed was in the system, where‘s the fun in that?


----------



## ArmyAl (30 Dec 2003)

The M4 with the R.I.S sytem is all that we need,
this new upgrade they are talking about is a waste of time and it‘s a joke, you want the rifle‘s cammed up, well paint it yourself, 20 inch barrel with a colapsable stock is the worst idea I have ever heard, never knew someone could come up with an idea like that!
The mounting points for lasers and all that, don‘t want to go there, R.I.S is a better option!
As for people talking about range with a 16 inch barrel, have you people ever fired the weapon?
I have one myself and I do fine with it at 300m, I‘ll have to post a pic one day.
Wellthat‘s my 2 cents


----------



## axeman (30 Dec 2003)

The mid life up grade is what you might be thinking about . with that the C7/C8 combo are getting new funiture and sight upgrades. They include green plastic,new slings in the digital cam and other mods . With some research there should be a web page that staes them all internal mods and external but i‘ve only seen the cover page.
  :fifty:


----------



## 311 (30 Dec 2003)

Boy, I can‘t wait for that CADPAT sling, i‘ll be really invisible then !!


----------



## chrisf (31 Dec 2003)

Forgot to note before, but for the sake of being anal, to "GD", the C7 and C8 are not guns.


----------



## gosho4 (31 Dec 2003)

So In the CF you can use MP5s to?


And If you are 2nd LT and in command of your platoon do you destribute the Weapons?(C7,C8,C9?)


----------



## 311 (31 Dec 2003)

I don‘t think their would be wide demand for a weapon with effective range of 100m. Thats more a weapon for a specialized unit like say JTF-2. Good for house clearing but not for over-all fighting. Secondly i‘ve never seen anyone with an MP5.



> Forgot to note before, but for the sake of being anal, to "GD", the C7 and C8 are not guns.


Just remember Full Metal Jacket, this is my rifle, this is my gun     .


----------



## combat_medic (31 Dec 2003)

GD: The CF does not use MP5s as a service weapon. A unit like JTF2 might use them, but (to my knowledge) there are no longer any submachine guns in the CF. 

As for being a Platoon Commander (2Lt or Lt), no, they would not distribute the weapons. The section commanders would decide who in their section will be riflemen (C7) and who will be machine gunners (C9). They will then be issued their weapons from the Quartermaster. C8s are not often used in the CF, and you would be hard pressed to find them. Armoured crews in the Reg Force have them, as do Naval crews. Other than that, not a lot of people are issued them (Sigs/MSE Ops etc are "supposed" to have them, but there just aren‘t enough in the system).


----------



## Thompson_JM (31 Dec 2003)

accually the Navy use MP5‘s Alot for ship boarding, but apart from, Navy, JTF-2 and possibly a few other specialized uses, they are not very common.. as Thunder said. they just arnt good in the feild when you need to be able to reach out and touch someone at 200-300m!


----------



## Mogrok (31 Dec 2003)

The reason why we all don‘t have C-8‘s that need them is that on the initial order of weapons only enough C8‘s were ordered for Armoured Regiments.  The weapon is designed for personal defence not engaging the enemy.  Therefore tankers need them.  Truckers and Rad OPs since they don‘t have the big guns to stop the enemy need the engagement range of the C7 and there isn‘t a vehicle out there besides armoured vehicles that doesn‘t fit a C7.  I spent 7 years in an iltis doing recce and the C7 fits.  Sure for ease of carrying a c8 is nice but, the scope comes in handy on patrol at night.  And I would prefer to be able to engage the enemy at maximum range as opposed to letting him pick me off from his range.


----------



## Armymedic (31 Dec 2003)

More C8‘s are out there, its no just and Armour wpn. Inf sect comd and 2iC‘s in Afghan are using them, also most recce platoons tend to issue them as well. 

MP 5‘s are more of a Navy boarding party thing, then in the army. (they also use shotguns, C8‘s and have even heard of teams using C9‘s for it)


----------



## chrisf (31 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by combat_medic:
> [qb](Sigs/MSE Ops etc are "supposed" to have them, but there just aren‘t enough in the system). [/qb]


On that note, it just struck me that if they can‘t issue C8s, it might make sense to issue an MP5 to a rad det as well in addition to the personal weapons. And a C9 might be nice as well. Say a mix of 1 MP5, 3 C7s, and 1 C9 to a four man rad det. C9 would definitly be an asset if you had to pull out under fire, and the MP5 would provide at least some prayer of defending yourself if you were attacked while in the cab.


----------



## scm77 (31 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by combat_medic:
> [qb]
> The section commanders would decide who in their section will be riflemen (C7) and who will be machine gunners (C9). They will then be issued their weapons from the Quartermaster.[/qb]


Say you were on a tour overseas.  Do the sections change everyday and do they stay the same all through the tour?  Also would the section commander decide who was going to have each weapon before going on a patrol or again would that be decided at the begining and it would stay the same?


----------



## Slim (31 Dec 2003)

> Originally posted by Thunder:
> [qb] Boy, I can‘t wait for that CADPAT sling, i‘ll be really invisible then !! [/qb]


I have a role of camo tape made for rifles at home. That‘s really all that‘s required...


----------



## Jarnhamar (31 Dec 2003)

You‘ll play the switch the weapon game a lot. C9s and M203s stay in your locker, gunners carry around the section commanders C7 (in bosnia)
in afghanstan it looks like you carry everything including the kitchen sink


----------



## Spr.Earl (31 Dec 2003)

C7 good weapon but need‘s T.L.C. v‘s the F.N.
range not bad in my opinion but I still like the F.N. C.1 for hitting power!! 7.62 v‘s 5.56

C8 good for F.I.B.U.A. and crew served vehicle‘s other wise useless for general infantry use and is usely used by Section commander‘s,replacing the S.M.G.(no range)

C9 very good for assault and in the defensive roll,easy to clean and maintain.Good rate of fire and light v‘s the old C2 with 4 30 round mag‘s carried in a bra across your chest.  :crybaby: 
heavy S.O.B.


----------



## gosho4 (31 Dec 2003)

How much Ammo are you allowed to carry when on Patrol?And what other weapons do LTs carry?


----------



## dbrock (7 Jan 2004)

Heck, I still remember the good old days of the SMG. Now if you want a submachine gun that could clear a room, that was the one. Sorry, I had to represent the old timers in the room.  :soldier:


----------



## Ruthless4Life (7 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by Just a Sig Op:
> [qb]- The visual difference is because they‘re different weapons.[/qb]


Cannot have said it better.


----------

