# A Question I Must Ask ...



## Bart905 (28 Sep 2011)

Hello everyone my name is Bart I'm 19 years old . Now that we got that out of the way I was originally born in Turkey, and as a family we immigrated to Canada when I was 9. I'm a Canadian citizen and proud to be one. I tried telemarketing , sound engineering , pizza delivery , construction and school but its not for me. Since I'm also a Turkish citizen at the age of 19 males that are not attending school must serve time in the Turkish military for year and a half . I could simply cancel my Turkish citizenship but it might be useful later in life. My military papers are already has been mailed to my grand parents therefor soon as I step foot in Turkey no ifs or buts I will be taken to a training camp. I'm still working on finishing my high-school soon as I get my diploma I want to go serve my time in the military in Turkey cause all my relatives live there and I want to be able to visit freely. After I'm done my time in Turkey I want to come back and join the Canadian Forces. The training in Turkey is advanced considering the fact its the second largest army in the NATO. My question is will it be a problem for me to join the Canadian Forces after I come back.?  I know for a fact that I will be physically, and mentally ready, plus my marksman skills will be above average. What worries me is that after the background check they might think I'm some sort of spy. Canada and Turkey has good relations but I would like your input. Will they accept or reject me ?


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## Rogo (28 Sep 2011)

Visit a recruiter, they will probably know better than a bunch of people on here.


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## Allgunzblazing (28 Sep 2011)

If your intention is to ultimately join the CF, then why not do so without the long-winded approach? I have dual citizenship as well (non NATO country). However, I intend to give up my former country's citizenship immediately after enrolment in the CF. The recruiting staff have told me that I was not required to do so. 

I had the same dilemma as you. The way I look at this is - I'm a Canadian citizen, living in Canada. I intend to live here forever. My loyalty is with Canada, so why should I remain the citizen of another country? 

As far as your security clearance is concerned - be prepared for a very long wait. Turkey was not among the first member states of NATO. So the fact that Turkey is a NATO country now, does not mean anything. You will still be required to undergo Pre-Enrollment Security Screening. Now if you decide to serve in the Turkish military, then... You do the math as far as security clearance is concerned. 

This is just my take. Your best bet is to the staff in the recruiting centre and see what they say. 

All the best to you.


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## Bart905 (28 Sep 2011)

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> If your intention is to ultimately join the CF, then why not do so without the long-winded approach? I have dual citizenship as well (non NATO country). However, I intend to give up my former country's citizenship immediately after enrolment in the CF. The recruiting staff have told me that I was not required to do so.
> 
> I had the same dilemma as you. The way I look at this is - I'm a Canadian citizen, living in Canada. I intend to live here forever. My loyalty is with Canada, so why should I remain the citizen of another country?
> 
> ...



Reason is because i want to have experience before I join. I want to apply as a Infantry Officer or work my way up to special ops


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## Redeye (28 Sep 2011)

Shouldn't be an issue at all - just be prepared for a longer background check process. You'll need to prove you completed your service in Turkey and have no further obligations there as well.


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## PMedMoe (28 Sep 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> Reason is because i want to have experience before I join. I want to apply as a Infantry Officer or work my way up to special ops



Experience can't hurt, however, without a university degree, you won't be joining as an Officer.


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## Allgunzblazing (28 Sep 2011)

I stand corrected - dual citizenship no longer implies foreign implications. http://www.forces.ca/en/page/theapplicationprocess-106#step2-2

It wasn't this way when I had applied.


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## MikeL (28 Sep 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> Reason is because i want to have experience before I join. I want to apply as a Infantry Officer or work my way up to special ops



Don't even think about SOF at this point in time you aren't even in yet.  Also experience can be easily gained in the CF. Don't need to goto Turkey for it, also experience in the Turkish military may have little value for the CF or any better then if you went straight into the CF. If your goal is to be in the CF I would say join the CF and not delay it by going to Turkey which will delay your security check even more. Also since you want to be an officer are you planning on geting a university degree?  Or joining under a program in the CF to get one?


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## Allgunzblazing (28 Sep 2011)

Bart, do you really think that being another country's citizens looks good especially if you aim to be an officer or be Special Operations? One of the questions asked in the form 330-60 is if you're a citizen of another country and if so why? 

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/330-60-eng.pdf

Now, I realize that no one in the CF is going to tell you renounce your Turkish citizenship. But if this matter was a non-issue, then why would they even have it on the form? 

If I was originally from a Commonwealth Realm (not just a member state), I would not relinquish my citizenship. Because in my view, these countries are all loyal to a common Constitutional Monarch. 

Again, I am saying all this in the nicest way possible and this is just my opinion. Serving in another country's military will certainly expand your knowledge base. 

However, I still think that if you want to join the CF, then why not join the CF! The more time you get under your belt as a CF member, be it as an OCdt, Recruit, whatever, will all be time well spent. You'd have gained valuable and relevant experience. Turkey and Canada are very different countries. I don't think their militaries can be compared.


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## aesop081 (28 Sep 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> The training in Turkey is advanced considering the fact its the second largest army in the NATO.



The size of an army is not an indication of the quality of it's training. You, as a short service conscript will not receive much more than the most basic of training. Having worked with ellements of the Turkish military myself, I do not share your high opinion of them.


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## Redeye (28 Sep 2011)

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> Now, I realize that no one in the CF is going to tell you renounce your Turkish citizenship. But if this matter was a non-issue, then why would they even have it on the form?



I wish you'd preface this with "speaking as an applicant, and having no idea what I'm talking about...", but alas, you didn't.

It's not really an issue. I'm a dual citizen, and had no trouble upgrading my clearance. They just want to know the whole story, that's really all there is to it.


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## Allgunzblazing (28 Sep 2011)

Thanks for pointing that out Redeye. But my post was simply expressing my opinion. I am not in the CSIS or DPM Secur, so what I said was from an applicant's view point. Now, I realize that you've undergone Security Clearance. But are you a background investigator yourself, or have you ever been assigned someone's file and asked to process their form 330-60? 

I am a law enforcement officer. Apart from this, my wife used to do this very same job (security clearance) for a police department. I can say with surety that the more straightforward a person's background is (lived in Canada for the part 10 years, no dual citizenship, no family living abroad, etc), the more easy it is for the background investigators.


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## Bart905 (28 Sep 2011)

Ok lets say I did not go to Turkey and applied full time to Canadian Forces for Infantry. How long would it take for me to attend the training camp. I have no criminal record , I don't have a credit card or debt . The house bills are under my name and my moms, she pays it off but I think it adds to my credit score. ?


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## Redeye (28 Sep 2011)

Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> Thanks for pointing that out Redeye. But my post was simply expressing my opinion. I am not in the CSIS or DPM Secur, so what I said was from an applicant's view point. Now, I realize that you've undergone Security Clearance. But are you a background investigator yourself, or have you ever been assigned someone's file and asked to process their form 330-60?



No. However, going through a clearance process, I asked, in detail, about it. Certain countries raise flags, obviously, but I had quite a chat with one of the parties involved and there's little likelihood of an issue in moost cases.



			
				Allgunzblazing said:
			
		

> I am a law enforcement officer. Apart from this, my wife used to do this very same job (security clearance) for a police department. I can say with surety that the more straightforward a person's background is (lived in Canada for the part 10 years, no dual citizenship, no family living abroad, etc), the more easy it is for the background investigators.



Well, that's basically common sense. It has no bearing on the issue though, ease of doing the check doesn't really determine anything.


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## Container (28 Sep 2011)

The issue would be how quickly and how well the agency in the other country responds and whether their checks are considered thorough enough. 

Being a duel citizen is not an issue. Being outside of the country for years on end is- and will slow down your application. Especially if its a country that doesnt have usual contact with the country doing the check.


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## brihard (28 Sep 2011)

I'd caution you that relations with Turkey may not continue to be quite so peachy- it's a country I'd place high on my list of ones that are becoming more troublesome, and particularly that will attract more attention from our security services. Our government is very close to Israel, and Israel and Turkey are very much at odds these days.

I'd advise that if you intend to go CF, just do it.


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## Allgunzblazing (28 Sep 2011)

Bart, first off as anyone here or any recruiter will tell you that it is impossible to tell what the approximate time it will take in your case from application to enrolment. 

That being said, this is what my experience has been: application, reliability screening, CFAT, medical, interview, selection board - eight months. Now, if I didn't have to undergo Pre-enrolment Security Clearance I'd have been attending BMOQ right now. However, that is not the case so all I can do is wait and hope that there are still openings for the occupation that I have been selected for. Some people have told me that their form 330-60 was processed by BackChek. Not so for me. Mine is going to be done by CSIS. Every application is different. 

As a 19 year old, you have numerous entry options in the CF. Spend some time on the CF website researching jobs and jot down any questions that you may have. Then go to a recruiting centre. I can say nothing but praise for the recruiting staff. They will point you in the correct direction.


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## Bart905 (28 Sep 2011)

Brihard said:
			
		

> I'd caution you that relations with Turkey may not continue to be quite so peachy- it's a country I'd place high on my list of ones that are becoming more troublesome, and particularly that will attract more attention from our security services. Our government is very close to Israel, and Israel and Turkey are very much at odds these days.
> 
> I'd advise that if you intend to go CF, just do it.



As far as the conflict with Israel , Turkey wants Israel to apologize and ship the 10 aircraft that is over due. I don't see Turkey and Israel going to war because both nations needs each others support to survive in the middle east . I see where your coming from and your 100% correct that it might not be the smartest move for me to make at this point. I'm considering going straight to the CF . First I have to quit smoking start working out again. I will be starting St Charles October 19 which is an Adult School to finish my high-school diploma. My question now is can I apply now for CF and as I'm waiting I can finish my credits or do I have to get my diploma first and then apply ?


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## RCDtpr (28 Sep 2011)

You can apply without your diploma....but with the recruiting situation these days I wouldn't hold your breath on being offered a job without a diploma.


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## gawnewiththewind (28 Sep 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> I will be starting St Charles October 19 which is an Adult School to finish my high-school diploma. My question now is can I apply now for CF and as I'm waiting I can finish my credits or do I have to get my diploma first and then apply ?



As a current applicant through ROTP, I was informed that I need to have my diploma and transcripts before I even submit my initial application. However, my 17 year-old brother who is currently in grade 12 (and also applying to ROTP) was able to submit his application right away, but has to update his transcripts as soon as he has his marks. I would suggest giving your local recruiter a call and asking for clarification.


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## Bart905 (28 Sep 2011)

Ok I made up my mind . Turkey is not an option anymore . I started my first work out today . I ran a little bit did pull ups and push ups . After my packs are done I'm quitting smoking get my self in serious shape. I'm going to go talk to a recruiter soon ask bunch of questions. How many years does it take to move up ranks in the military.? Lets say I signed up as a infantry and later on in life I want to become a Infantry officer can I take programs to achieve that or do I get stuck being an infantry soldier all my life .


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## MikeL (29 Sep 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> Ok I made up my mind . Turkey is not an option anymore . I started my first work out today . I ran a little bit did pull ups and push ups . After my packs are done I'm quitting smoking get my self in serious shape. I'm going to go talk to a recruiter soon ask bunch of questions. How many years does it take to move up ranks in the military.? Lets say I signed up as a infantry and later on in life I want to become a Infantry officer can I take programs to achieve that or do I get stuck being an infantry soldier all my life .



Search around the forums, there is info on promotions.  But nothing is set in stone, though so don't expect to read something and expect your promotions to go exactly like that.  Also your abilities/actions, etc will effect how fast or slow you are promoted.

Yes, you can start off as a Pte and then later on after getting your education become a officer.  You might want to look into the Reserves and joining as a Pte/NCM while going to university and once you have your degree then OT/CT into the Reg Force as a Infantry Officer if that is your ultimate goal.


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## Bart905 (29 Sep 2011)

thanks a lot guys you helped me out a lot with this topic. I will be more then happy to serve my country once I get in and going


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## Blackadder1916 (29 Sep 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> Ok I made up my mind . Turkey is not an option anymore . . . . . .



Perhaps you should also check with the Turkish Embassy/Consulate about how service in another NATO country's forces will affect your Turkish military service obligation.  Though my knowledge may be outdated, most (but not all) NATO countries that have (or had) compulsory military service recognized service in another NATO country's military as fulfilling that obligation.  However, sometimes there are certain notification/reporting requirements in order for that service to be acknowledged and then, hopefully, you will avoid the possibility of being summarily inducted into the Turkish Army (even if you are in the CF) while on a visit to the "old country".  And sometimes relinquishment of the other citizenship will not be actioned until compulsory military service is completed.  While unusual, it has happened - one notable incident was a few decades ago when an Italian-Canadian was conscripted into the Italian Army while he was on leave in Italy visiting relatives.


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## Allgunzblazing (29 Sep 2011)

Blackadder, you've brought up a very good point. It almost seems unreal that compulsory conscription exists in this day and age! That too in supposedly democratic countries.


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## Bart905 (3 Oct 2011)

Do I need to make an appointment or can I randomly walk in the recruitment center ?


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## Sadukar09 (3 Oct 2011)

You can walk in, first time they'll probably give you the needed application forms. You can also apply online, or download the forms and bring it with you.


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## Thompson_JM (4 Oct 2011)

Bart905 said:
			
		

> Do I need to make an appointment or can I randomly walk in the recruitment center ?



Just walk in.... 

It's on the Second floor of the Government Building on Bay St, Across from Copps.... 

Tell them you are interested in Joining the CF, give them all the details you have given us, and they should be able to tell you exactly what you need to do, say, write, etc... as far as joining the CF goes... 

Seriously.... every day you spend here asking anonymous internet folks, is another day you could have started the ball rolling with the people who can actually get you enrolled....

Just my .02, but seriously man.... Be like Nike..... Just do it.

Good luck.


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## Bart905 (4 Oct 2011)

Your rite I should just do it but first I need a haircut .  I Know exactly where that is I went and got my citizenship there a year ago


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