# How hard can an english course for a french guy???



## mysteriousmind (3 Jan 2008)

I know from the back of my head somewere that the subject has probably been discussed, but I cannot pin point it in a search function. 

As allot of you guys know, I'm a french Quebecois, who happens to be not so bad in English. I have a few glitch but, I think I'm OK. I was wondering, how hard would it be to follow my QL3 as a supply tech in Borden on a English course. The reason I'm considering this is quite simple, The french course are hard to get on for a Pres guy due to the short number of place available on course.  And, I would like to get it done this winter, instead of waiting to do it next summer. 

Do you think A. Would I get myself into hell for a french to be on a English course???
                   B. That is would give me better chance to get in a course this winter???

Or should I wait to the Pres Summer course??


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## GUNS (3 Jan 2008)

From reading your post, I would think you would not have any problem. You command of the English language is very good.

As for being a French speaking Canadian on a English speaking Canadian course.

There is no issue here, we are all Canadian.


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## mysteriousmind (3 Jan 2008)

GUNS said:
			
		

> As for being a French speaking Canadian on a English speaking Canadian course.
> 
> There is no issue here, we are all Canadian.



Perhaps speaking out of my lane, but I have heard/read about francophone people ending up in a English environment and having a hard time there. Allot of people got laugh at, got ranted about, etc, etc, etc,

But thanks for your wisdom GUNS


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## George Wallace (3 Jan 2008)

You shouldn't worry about it.  Many Francophones, with English skills, have been placed on English Trades Courses.  The Instructors and Standards people will take language problems into account and if necessary provide the extra time and effort to assist them.  This is not new.  It has been happening for ages.  

As for jokes and laughing at, the same can be found when Anglos attend Franco Courses (and it does happen).  At the end of the Course, much of that is over with and good friendships are usually made.  

I have seen many instances where long lasting bonds have been made on such courses and postings.


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## armyvern (3 Jan 2008)

We have a trick that we use MM in the Supply trade for francos who end up in an english enviornment, but do not have a good command of the english language.

1) We throw you on the front counter of clothing stores to work, where you have the opportunity to develop those english language skills on a continual basis; (we would also attempt to have you loaded on the next possible SLT);

2) After we have sent a francophone on an SLT -- we throw them on the front counter of clothing stores to work!! Ergo ensuring that those language skills that you have been taught become comfortable for you.

I'm not sure about the PRes course loading, but in the RegF (here anyway), SLT for our franco suppies is a priority. You won't be completely immersed in english however, we are a bilingual Unit and many of our customers (staff & course candidates) are francophone.

Your personal command of english is very good BTW and I have no doubt that you would succeed on an english course.


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## mysteriousmind (3 Jan 2008)

Thanks Vern, 


I will ask to be loaded on a QL3 ASAP even if its in English  ;D, I would like to get all this course thing done faster then having to wait until may... So i can start working at the clothing in Valcartier right after.  8)


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## armyvern (3 Jan 2008)

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> Thanks Vern,
> 
> 
> I will ask to be loaded on a QL3 ASAP even if its in English  ;D, I would like to get all this course thing done faster then having to wait until may... So i can start working at the clothing in Valcartier right after.  8)



Our courses are "open book" -- they need to be due to the vast number of publications/regulations that we deal with. That being said, all our publications are en francais as well.

Your answers need to be direct quotes from the books, and properly reffed to their pub location (ie CFSM) right down to the sub-para. Copy & paste.

The CFSS Sup system itself works in the NATO standard language -- english. The screens would be identical on both franco and english courses as would the input that you are required to make. The factor that you must consider however -- is will you understand the instructions on how and what to do if you are taught each blocks meaning and significance in english? That's a big consideration -- given that this is a career course; do not ask for an anglo course if you are not 110% certain that you will understand what your instructors are teaching you.


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## Sig_Des (3 Jan 2008)

On a couple of my courses there were Franco's on Anglo courses.

They did allright, though some translation was required.

On my 3's confirmation Ex, they assigned the French guy to my Det so that if there was any confusion, I could translate for him. Worked out OK.

Keep in mind though, that if you are going to be working in a French environment, it may be easier to have your trades training in French.


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## armyvern (3 Jan 2008)

That being said, one will not usually find himself loaded onto a course not in their primary language if one does not have a valid language profile.

I've seen it happen in a couple of cases where pers volunteered for it -- but you MUST consider the implications of a "fail" (I've seen that too -- not good.) -- it IS a career course, don't take it lightly.


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## Greymatters (3 Jan 2008)

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> Do you think A. Would I get myself into hell for a french to be on a English course???
> B. That is would give me better chance to get in a course this winter???



Im interested in how you got the impression that taking an English course would be hell.  Is that a personal impression, a friends advice, or is someone in your chain feeding you this information?


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## armyvern (3 Jan 2008)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Im interested in how you got the impression that taking an English course would be hell.  Is that a personal impression, a friends advice, or is someone in your chain feeding you this information?



I think it's more a ref to his wondering whether or not his grasp of english is good enough to successfully complete an english language QL3 ...

I certainly don't get the impression that he thinks the course "would be hell".


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## aesop081 (3 Jan 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That being said, one will not usually find himself loaded onto a course not in their primary language if one does not have a valid language profile.



Some trades have courses only offered in English. Staff provide assistance as able.


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## Sig_Des (3 Jan 2008)

Forgot to mention, on more technical courses, it's very much preferable to get the course in the language you will be operating in.


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## armyvern (3 Jan 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Some trades have courses only offered in English. Staff provide assistance as able.



Absolutely agreed. In that case however, they would also _have_ to provide translation services if/when requested by the non-primary language pers as per the Official Languages Act.

That's not the case for a member who volunteers to attend a course not within his primary language where the course is run in both official languages. MOST will provide the assistance necessary to the member (but this would be minimal as they would much expect someone volunteering for an english career course vice a french one to at least be capable in that language that he has REQUESTED to do the course in), however he has chosen to take the course outside of his mother tongue, thus he must consider the implications a "fail" would bring on this career course if the instructor can not provide the member with language translation and assistance at his leisure.


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## Roy Harding (3 Jan 2008)

When I (re)joined the CF as an Adm Clk back in 1982, my first posting was to an English Language Unit in Calgary.  One of my fellow privates was a francophone, who despite having attended SLT (a requirement for all Franco tradesmen at that time) did not have a _STRONG_ grip on English.  He and I became buddies, and he soldiered on in his second language - and steadily improved.  He made a request to our Career Manager that he attend all courses in English.  As it turned out, a few years later we attended QL6A together.  By that time, his English was impeccable, he was fully bilingual (unlike me), and he had far more options when it came to postings than I did.

We remained buddies throughout the years and when we've talked about those early years, he admits they were tough at first - but there was no way he was letting us English bastards get the best of him!

The point being - my buddy fully immersed himself in his second language - going so far as to request all trade courses in it.  His ability in English _may_ have had an effect on his academic performance on his 5's (he did well enough, but I thought he'd do better), but by the time we were on our 6's together, language was no longer an issue.  His second place finish on that course was purely the result of being course loaded with an English bastard (me), who was _ever so slightly_ ahead of him in a couple of areas - a fact I never let him forget.

Your written English seems fine to me, mysteriousmind - I think if you want to go the English route for your trade courses you'll be opening horizons for yourself which were not visible to a monophone like myself.

Best of luck to you, you're a better man than I, Gunga Din.


Roy


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## aesop081 (3 Jan 2008)

And another hugfest comes to a close.....I hope


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## Roy Harding (3 Jan 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> And another hugfest comes to a close.....I hope



Just for you, CDN Aviator - wouldn't want you to feel left out of the hugfest.

 :-* :-* :-*


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## 284_226 (3 Jan 2008)

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> Forgot to mention, on more technical courses, it's very much preferable to get the course in the language you will be operating in.



I think if you speak to Francophones who have attended technical courses conducted in French, the consensus will be that they would never do it again.  Back when I was an instructor in Halifax, they conducted a couple of French serials for the apprentice Naval Electronics Techs.  The overwhelming opinion of the students and the instructors was that it was a flop, and I don't think they've attempted it again since then.

Back in the days when tech manuals were printed one page English, and then one page French - it would be the Francophones that would tear out the French pages.  Useless, they said - they used terminology that was virtually unknown in common French.  None of the French guys wanted to hear or read générateur de signaux, it was a sig gen.

Then somebody wised up to the fact that all the French pages were getting thrown out of the manuals at the end units, and they went to printing the left column of a page in English, and the right column in French.


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## vonGarvin (3 Jan 2008)

I echo the previous comments: Immersion is the best way to learn a second language.  That's how I learned German.  That's also how I improved my French:  I taught on francophone serials at the Infantry School (albeit in the "bilingual section" of the platoon, but I still had to speak much more French there during those courses than probably in my entire service life before and since)


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## GUNS (5 Jan 2008)

Consider yourself fortunite to be able to speak French and English. To be so lucky.

When I  was posted to 5 RALC in Valcartier, I had to learn Canadian English and Canadian French. You see I am from Newfoundland and both English Canadians/French Canadians had a hard time understanding me. :warstory: ;D





			
				mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> Perhaps speaking out of my lane, but I have heard/read about francophone people ending up in a English environment and having a hard time there. Allot of people got laugh at, got ranted about, etc, etc, etc,
> 
> But thanks for your wisdom GUNS


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## mysteriousmind (6 Jan 2008)

OK I think I should Clarify the question about me. 

When I asked the Questions, i was just wondering if I would to much of a challenge to follow my QL3 as a Supply in English as I am a Franco. The reason I was asking this is that If I wait for a french course, ill have to wait until may for the Summer training to begin in Valcartier for the Pres. I was considering asking my chain of command if it was possible to be putted on a course in (name base here) on a English course this winter as the 2 french course were full (the one starting on the 15Th of January in Borden and the one in April). 

I was doubting my English skills to be good enough for me to follow a course in English, thus adding a stress more. Upon today, Allot of people on this fine website, gave some cue's that my skills seemed to be OK enough to be able to follow the course if my chain of command was able to nominate me on a English course. 

Ill add that it would possibly give me even a better control of a important skill to my opinion. 

Thanks for all of the info I got. If would have been a much more technical course (Like AVN tech), I would not even try. But as Vern pointed out, the supply system is often worked with the English terms anyway.


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## Roy Harding (6 Jan 2008)

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> OK I think I should Clarify the question about me.
> 
> When I asked the Questions, i was just wondering if I would to much of a challenge to follow my QL3 as a Supply in English as I am a Franco. The reason I was asking this is that If I wait for a french course, ill have to wait until may for the Summer training to begin in Valcartier for the Pres. I was considering asking my chain of command if it was possible to be putted on a course in (name base here) on a English course this winter as the 2 french course were full (the one starting on the 15Th of January in Borden and the one in April).
> 
> ...



I'm one of those who think you'd be fine on an English course, based upon your posts here.

One thing to consider - I know that I have better comprehension of French in written form as opposed to verbal.  This is because I can concentrate and take my time when something is written down - not possible when someone is speaking to me.  Just something to think about.

In other words - I _COULD_ (slowly and painfully) struggle through a post here written in French - and be able to get the general gist of what was being put across (although I'd miss the nuances) - but I'd be completely unable to hold a conversation on the same subject.

I don't think such is the case for you - but all opinions here have been based on your facility in written English.  If your oral English is as good - you won't have a problem on course, and I think you'll be doing yourself a favour in the long run.

Good luck to you.


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## Col.Steiner (9 Jan 2008)

I think you would do just fine! I remember a lot of French guys in my course who chose an English course to improve their language skills. However, reverse the roles and put an English guy in an all French course and I am not so sure that would go over well.


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## geo (9 Jan 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> That being said, one will not usually find himself loaded onto a course not in their primary language if one does not have a valid language profile.
> 
> I've seen it happen in a couple of cases where pers volunteered for it -- but you MUST consider the implications of a "fail" (I've seen that too -- not good.) -- it IS a career course, don't take it lightly.



Unfortunately, reservists seldom have a valid language profile unless they chase after Class "B"s for a long time.


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## stealthylizard (1 Feb 2008)

Glad to see I am not the only one with that Roy.  Must have been all those years of reading the french on the back of cereal boxes at breakfast.


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## Roy Harding (1 Feb 2008)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> Glad to see I am not the only one with that Roy.  Must have been all those years of reading the french on the back of cereal boxes at breakfast.



Bingo.

And I imagine the same is true of our francophone cohorts (but in reverse).


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## benny88 (5 Feb 2008)

Mysteriousmind, ditto to you being fine on an English course, I can't wait to have better control of French, looking forward to SLT very much.

Funny story along the bilingualism lines...almost all of my Platoon staff was Francophone (on an English serial) and while they all spoke good English, sometimes they needed help with a specific word, luckily there was a bilingual OCdt who was often called upon to help:


Platoon CO: ...and try not to make it look like a.....OCdt ********, what is the english word for "gagglef*ck?"
Voice from the back of ranks:.....Uuuuhhh.....gagglef*ck ma'am.


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## mysteriousmind (5 Feb 2008)

Well, It wont happen, a Pres guys wanting to go on  a Reg Force course isn't likely to happen. Its a money thing..if I go on a reg force course, my battalion is paying for it...and if I wait for the summer training it is the brigade paying...money wins over the guy wanting to pursue his career.


Altought I was lucky enough to get myself a B class until march 31 with a possible renew until may. I cannot cry or regret.


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## logan7979 (18 Mar 2008)

First of all you need a basic understanding of your 2nd language.

After that, you need to make sure your course staff acquire reading material for you in your 1st language.

Ive done all my courses in french, now the last time i spoke french was grade 8, and let me tell you at the beginning you will get the `` is he an idiot`` look. Dont worry, the beauty of this is that as your training goes on, no matter what you will at least improve your communication skills, you cant really plateau! 

Just remember its the army. Nothing is that difficult in class, and outside of the class most people can understand a message being distributed, whatever the language is, as long as it is done cofindantly


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## PMedMoe (18 Mar 2008)

logan7979 said:
			
		

> Just remember its the army. Nothing is that difficult in class



Really?  I wonder how people fail courses taken in their primary language then.  :
Be careful about the reading material in your language as well, I know of some publications that are not translated well and some that are not even the same as the English one.


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## Yrys (18 Mar 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I know of some publications that are not translated well and some that are not even the same as the English one.



There are some hardcore French translations out there. Enough that my friends and I, when we're stumbling into
one, we don't ever wonder if we have feeble mind, not comprehending simple buildup instructions, just go automatically 
for the original English, and it do wonder  !

It's look sometimes like if someone put the English version in an old translation program and never checked the results...
The "French" part is often hilarious.


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## geo (18 Mar 2008)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Really?  I wonder how people fail courses taken in their primary language then.  :
> Be careful about the reading material in your language as well, I know of some publications that are not translated well and some that are not even the same as the English one.


I usually hang on to both versions AND refer to the other when it does not make sense OR when the manual goes against what I remember / what is common sense


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## vonGarvin (18 Mar 2008)

From my experience, the offical translations are junk.  "Gunnery" is usually translated as "artillerie".  Junk.
For the courseware for the Turret Operator Course, it was developed concurrently in English and French.  Side by each by two IGs, one native anglo, the other native franco.  Too bad it can't all be done like that


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## AirCanuck (20 Mar 2008)

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> Perhaps speaking out of my lane, but I have heard/read about francophone people ending up in a English environment and having a hard time there. Allot of people got laugh at, got ranted about, etc, etc, etc,
> 
> But thanks for your wisdom GUNS



I think more and more people in the military are learning to work together regardless of language background.  This has at least been what I have seen in my very limited experience.  Sure, everyone likes to bust balls a bit, but I think for the most part it's goodhearted.


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