# Reserve DEO Questions



## humint (11 Apr 2003)

I‘ve been having this discussion with some people, and everyone seems to have a different opinion or experience. Anyway, I wanted to get some feedback on this.

When you first get enrolled as an officer, you come in as an OCdt. However, you can (should be??) be bumped-up immediately (i.e. that day) to 2LT (or another rank, depending on your trade/speciality, etc) if you have a university degree.

But, some people have reported that they have not been bumped-up while others have. 

I know what the CF policy statement says, but is there a protocol/unwritten rule that the CO follows? 

It doesn‘t seem like this bumping-up is automatic. 

Do some CO‘s wait until you‘ve passed BOTP, etc?

Anyone have insight into this?


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## Zoomie (11 Apr 2003)

If we‘re talking the Reserve world, then I can only tell you what I have seen in the past.
Those officer candidates that have a university degree should be inducted into the CF and take all their courses as a 2Lt.  Those candidates lacking a degree will remain an OCDT until MOC qualified.
Reg force world is completely different, but I won‘t go into that unless requested.


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## humint (11 Apr 2003)

I‘m talking Res world -- and those who have already completed a degree.

I know the Reg force all depends on MOC and specialization.


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## ggranatstein (11 Apr 2003)

Humint,

I had been told that those with a degree would be bumped up to 2Lt. immediately most of the time.

However, discretion lies completely with the CO.

Upon completion of BOTP(R) and CAP(R) you are promoted to 2lt regardless - as you are a qualified to be an officer. MOC training is not necessary to be a 2Lt.

This is coming from the WO of a reserve regiment in Ottawa. 

If you are going into a differnet speciality, i.e  JAG, you are given a different rank.

Hope this helps,
Gabriel

p.s. Humint - looks like I‘ll be joining you for the BOTP and CAP in Gage!


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## ProPatria05 (11 Apr 2003)

Here‘s another twist on this.

I had applied to enter as an Officer, and was sworn in on Jan 24, 2002. A BMQ course was starting on 14 Feb, before any officer board could be convened (usually done locally with Reserves). So, to get me on the course (rather than have to wait until the fall), they asked me if I would mind enrolling as an NCM, with commission to come later, since one option for new Reserve Officers is to take BMQ with NCMs (usually as an OCDT or 2LT, mind you), with a leadership week to follow.

I had no problem whatsoever with this, so I actually started my stint with the Reserves as a Private. Toward the end of the BMQ, I did my Officer Board, and shortly after the BMQ I was promoted to Officer Cadet, the rank I held while completing the BOTP(2) 5-day leadership course. Following this, I was commissioned to 2LT.

The only problem with this is that even if you do well on the course, many of your course-mates, and especially the Cpl/MCpl instructors on the course, still see you as Private Bloggins after you are commissioned. There is a bit of an uphill battle to get the respect that the commission (not the man) is owed. But with time and good demonstration of leadership, both you and your commission will gain the respect of the troops.


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## ProPatria05 (11 Apr 2003)

<deleted by originator -- message posted twice>

MURPH


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## Illucigen (11 Apr 2003)

Reg force wise: 

Degree or not, you cant be a 2LT until you pass BOTP.

Period.

Once you have your BOTP, if you have a degree, you are commissioned and sent on phase. 

I have yet to see a 2Lt do a basic here in St jean (at the reg force level) except for : Doctors/lawyers. Some of them are given a 6 month-year extension.


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## humint (13 Apr 2003)

The terms of service are outlined here:

Reg Force:
 http://www.dnd.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/006-01_e.asp 

Most are Ofcdt until Moc qualified -- the exception is for specialities such as Theology, Docs, etc. 

Res Force:
 http://www.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/049-10_e.asp 

As mentioned above, it looks like the CO has complete discretion about promotion to 2Lt at anytime after enrolment. Higher ranks are attainable depending on speciality.


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## william (19 Oct 2004)

I want to get some opinions about joining. I did some reading on the net about the Canadian Army and it said that if get a bachelors degree in colledge and join the Army you get to start off as a lieutenant.

Well I want to know if its true and if its worth while.


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## MikeM (19 Oct 2004)

You can't get a degree from a college.. do you mean a diploma? Or do you mean a degree from a university?.

Also, upon entering the Canadian Forces as an officer, you will start at the rank of Officer Cadet. Someone can correct me if I am wrong on any of this.


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## Eowyn (19 Oct 2004)

MikeM said:
			
		

> Also, upon entering the Canadian Forces as an officer, you will start at the rank of Officer Cadet. Someone can correct me if I am wrong on any of this.



In the Reserves, as a DEO Officer, you could be enrolled as an OCdt and promoted to 2Lt the same day.


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## shootergurl (19 Oct 2004)

I was told by a recruiter yesterday that having a bachelor's degree would entitle me to enter the reserves as an officer with the rank of second-lieutenant .


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## Inch (19 Oct 2004)

Yes you are correct, it's just a paper thing. You have to enroll before you can get a commission, you need to have a commission in order to be a 2Lt. To you it'll all happen instantaneously, but on paper it'll follow that sequence.


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## humint (19 Oct 2004)

Here's the deal:

Yes, as a DEO (Direct Entry Officer) with a BA or more, you come into the ResF as a 2Lt, or at almost any Officer rank the CO appoints (but 2Lt is the most common). 

For example, someone with a PhD could, in theory, enter as a Capt. 

Generally, those entering as a DEO as a Medical Officer, Padre, or Legal Officer come into the unit as a Capt.

Often, people come into the ResF as a Ocdt and then are promoted to 2Lt the same day -- but, as mentioned above, this is merely on paper.

There is an odd exeption to the this rule for the RegF. If you look at Personnel Selection Officer or Public Affairs Officer, you will notice that the pers in those trades are promoted to LT after completing the first section of training (i.e. before MOC training).  

I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I believe pers entering the RegF as a DEO are given the rank of 2Lt immediately upon enrollment.

As for is it worth it? Well, it all depends on what you are measuring the worth of a Commission as a 2Lt. If you are looking for big bucks, you should be looking elsewhere. But, if you are looking for a challenging career that you can't find on civvie street, than look no further -- 'cause yes, it's worth it.

What you need to do is ask yourself this question: If money is not a concern, would you still join the CF as an NCM? 

If you answer 'no' because you think that such a role is beneath you, than you should look for employment elsewhere. The simple fact is this: if you think NCMs are beneath you, than you have no right leading them in battle -- and that's what this job is all about. 

My humble opinion, that's all.


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## BLACKBERRY (20 Oct 2004)

I am sure what William meant was a university-college like the university-college of the Fraser Valley. Anyways, I am in my third year of BA in sociology  at the British Columbia Open University soon to be Thompson Rivers University B.C newest University. William, one piece of important info
no matter what anyone on here tells you about just getting in with a degree you also have to have math and chem or phyis 12. Some people do biology 12 and math 11 to graduate in BC. Make sure you have those courses along with your degree. I am 100 percent sure about this.


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## ReadyAyeReady (20 Oct 2004)

Blackberry,

I'm a little confused about your note regarding Math 12 and Physics or Chem 12.  If you need those courses to qualify for a Commission then that's news to me.  The recruiting centre in Vancouver never told me that when I applied.  I think it all depends on what career path you are applying for (why would a Public Affairs Officer need Math 12 and Phys 12, on the other hand a pilot or a signals officer wouldn't be able to survive without Math and Phys).  It would seem absurd to discount an applicant simply because they don't have Phys or Chem 12...then you'd get situations where perfectly qualified persons are getting rejected simply because they weren't interested in Phys or Chem in high school. If the CF is doing that then they are automatically discoounting a whole whack of intelligent people (Thats my opinion anyway).  I'd double check with the recruiting centre...I know I'm going to.  I did Math 12 but not Phys or Chem and that hasn't hindered my application for Infantry, Armour and Artillery.  According to the CF website, to qualify as an infantry officer all it says regarding educational qualifications is this:

Entry applicants must hold a Bachelor's degree from an accredited Canadian university.

Anyway, that's what I've been told and it would be good to clarify the issue.


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## humint (20 Oct 2004)

You only need grade 12/OAC Math and Chem, plus an appropriate degree, for certain trades such as Combat Engineers. 

However, since you normally need an OAC or senior level Math credit to get into university in the first place, by default you will have some sort of math credit under your belt. For example, I have OAC Finite Math, but I didn't take Bio or Chem after grade 10.

For those joining the Combat Arms, don't worry, just check with a CFRC recruiter.

In fact, ALWAYS check with a CFRC recruiter regarding the academic qualifications for the trades you may be interested in joining. They will let you know exactly what you need, and don't need, to qualify.


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## tree hugger (20 Oct 2004)

When I was in reserves, (just 2 years ago) you had to have university and BOTP finished before you got promoted to 2Lt or finish your first MOC course.  Didn't hear of people coming in off the street getting their 2Lt's.


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## william (20 Oct 2004)

I've done some


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## william (20 Oct 2004)

I had some technical difficulties with that last post.
 I've done some more research and you need to have a bachelors degree level in an acretitted Canadian Colledge or University to join as an officier.

Thats all it said though, it didn't say anything about having highschool qualifications. 
What would you say that I do when I'm eligible to join if I just wanted to be in the army and didn't care about the pay. What would give me a better experience.


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## PPCLI Guy (20 Oct 2004)

> What would give me a better experience.



That depends.  In your first three years in the Military, do you want to lead or be led?


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## Torlyn (20 Oct 2004)

MikeM said:
			
		

> You can't get a degree from a college.. do you mean a diploma? Or do you mean a degree from a university?.
> 
> Also, upon entering the Canadian Forces as an officer, you will start at the rank of Officer Cadet. Someone can correct me if I am wrong on any of this.



You can get degrees from Colleges...  They're just applied degrees, and the CF takes them at par.

Also, I was under the impression that you start as an OCdt, then after the 7 week IAP you are commissioned as an acting 2Lt, until you complete BOTC & language, then 2Lt and your posting.  Could be wrong though...  (DEO)

T


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## Eowyn (20 Oct 2004)

In the Reserves, specifically Log, you can get commissioned without any training.


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## BLACKBERRY (21 Oct 2004)

I was told by 2 recruiters at the CFRC Vancouver that you need chem or phys and math 12 along with the degree to go infantry officer. Also to clear some things up in B.C when I graduated high school in 1995 you needed to have math 11 and a science twelve in order to graduate. SFU, BCOU my school, UNBC, UVIC, AND UBC ask for math 11 and English twelve if you are going for an BA degree Soci, Crim, Political sciences etc. Other provinces have different requirements. You can also do four years at Capilano College in North Vancouver an earn a full degree in BUSINES ADMIN, OR MUSIC the degree is granted through the British Columbia Open University. University-Colleges this last year also grant full degrees and applied. For example, Kwantlen offers a degree in applied psychology as well as a degree in psychology and history as of last year. If you are like me and work full time and you have to discipline get your degree through correspondence through the BCOU soon to amalgamate with UCC to form BC's newest full university THOMPSON RIVERS UNIVERSITY in April 2005. Anyways, I was shown the recruiters manual by a 2Lt and in it it states that they want a well rounded officer so Math 12 Chem or phys is a go. Go down to the CFRC Vancouver and go upstairs to processing and ask to see this book to satisfy your curiosity.


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## pbi (21 Oct 2004)

> What you need to do is ask yourself this question: If money is not a concern, would you still join the CF as an NCM?
> 
> If you answer 'no' because you think that such a role is beneath you, than you should look for employment elsewhere. The simple fact is this: if you think NCMs are beneath you, than you have no right leading them in battle -- and that's what this job is all about.
> 
> My humble opinion, that's all.




Well said, argylls recruiting. Well said. Now-about Res officers needing a degree(as one poster mentioned)-since when has this been a requirement? Maybe I'm out of the loop. (well....probably) Cheers.


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## william (21 Oct 2004)

I think I want to be led more than I want to lead.


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## william (21 Oct 2004)

Well thanks guys you've helped me make up my mind.

 I think  I'll start from the bottom.


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## Tracker (21 Oct 2004)

Some people prefer starting as a follower and working their way into a leadership position, others want to start in the middle.  There is always the opportunity for you to move upward depending on your ability and ambition.  I have met all kinds of leaders in the CF, Officers and NCMs some with degrees and some without, some were good and some were not.  You are the best judge of where you should start.


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## DVessey (22 Oct 2004)

argylls_recruiting said:
			
		

> ...
> I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I believe pers entering the RegF as a DEO are given the rank of 2Lt immediately upon enrollment.
> ...



I don't believe that's true. From my own experience, a friend of mine on IAP this past summer was DEO (Originally ROTP, then got switched to DEO) and she wasn't promoted(she was just an OCdt like the rest of us).  I'm pretty sure that for Reg Force DEO you get commisioned after you finish BOTC (IAP and BOTP).

william: good luck!


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## darwin (6 Mar 2011)

Hey CF personnel and hopefuls!

I want to apply via DEO to the queens york rangers, is this possible? if not are there any reserve companies, brigades, etc. or what have you that do accept DEO applications?

thank you very much for your time and wish everyone luck in April when positions start to open up (yay for random start of fiscal year!)


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## PMedMoe (6 Mar 2011)

You've been on this site since 2009.  I'm pretty sure you know about the search function.  I'm also sure that you've had your grammar, punctuation, capitalization, etc remarked upon as well.

If you are serious about applying for DEO, I suggest you start using your initiative to seek the answers you need.

For a start:  http://www.qyrang.ca/contact/


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## darwin (6 Mar 2011)

I did the search. I use forums for research so I can be informed when I do speak with the recruiter at the specific unit.

I have taken initiative in applying to the CF, hence being on this forum since 2009, this is me looking for answers. I don't mean to be a dick, but it is a waste of time to reply to a question by complaining about someone's grammar. I generally want an answer, because most people on here would know the answer.

I understand why people get annoyed over bad grammar and spelling, as I do when I get some emails from customers or suppliers at work. But this is not work, its an online forum.


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## PMedMoe (6 Mar 2011)

darwin said:
			
		

> I have taken initiative in applying to the CF, hence being on this forum since 2009, this is me looking for answers. I don't mean to be a dick, but it is a waste of time to reply to a question by complaining about someone's grammar. I generally want an answer, because most people on here would know the answer.



The only one who would know the answer to your question for sure, is the recruiter at the unit.  I provided you the contact info.  I've looked at your posting history and don't see much initiative.  You've wavered around Reg and Res, the Navy, MPO and Int O, and of course, your first post asking if you could pull your application at the last minute.



			
				darwin said:
			
		

> I understand why people get annoyed over bad grammar and spelling, as I do when I get some emails from customers or suppliers at work. But this is not work, its an online forum.



So you've read the Conduct Guidelines, right?



> Please use English or French to the best of your ability



As Good2Golf (Moderator) stated to you in July of 2009:



> Darwin, the problem here is that we could ask you, "Well, when would you put emphasis on grammar, or punctuation?"
> 
> In the Canadian Forces, you will be expected to communicate effectively and professionally.  Communication is incredibly important in military affairs and professionalism in its execution is a mark of the calibre of the men and women that serve in the military.  No, not everyone is a laureate; however, we all try to be clear, concise and accurate, both in our written and verbal communication.
> 
> By fobbing off grammar and punctuation as not necessary in a forum, you rob yourself of the opportunity to better your communication skills.  To do so also gives folks reason to wonder what other efforts are not being made for your own convenience.


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## George Wallace (6 Mar 2011)

darwin said:
			
		

> I did the search. I use forums for research so I can be informed when I do speak with the recruiter at the specific unit.
> 
> ..........
> ..........
> ...




Have you given any thought to the fact that your poor use of English, and that of so many others, makes a SEARCH next to impossible as incorrectly spelled words will not bring results?  

You have been informed many times now as to why we expect you to start your "professional" training now, and learn to correctly use good writing skills to communicate.  You will need them in your future in the CF if you do have one; and it helps us to easily SEARCH more accurately here on this site.


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## ltmaverick25 (7 Mar 2011)

Yes you can apply as a DEO provided that you have completed a university degree.  I dont know which units are looking for guys, you will have to contact them directly.  Go visit them on a parade night and ask to talk to a recruiter.


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## roughneckrico (15 Dec 2013)

Good afternoon,

2 part question:

1st part;

I recently enrolled as an Armour Officer with the local reserve unit and was under the impression I was to start at the 2Lt rank.

However, I am a OCdt. 

Some of my fellow officers seem to think this is a mistake.

I am starting my BMOQ next month and wanted to know if I and my fellow officers are correct in my rank designation to be 2Lt? And if so what is the way forward to getting this corrected?

Background:
I have a Bachelor of Science honours and a Bachelor of Applied Technology honours.

I have my bilingual EEE designation.

Any insight is appreciated.

2nd part;

What should my career training/crouse progression be as an armour officer? Which courses should I be taking and in what sequence (BMOQ, ROTP, CAP)?


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## George Wallace (15 Dec 2013)

First question is; "some of my fellow officers seem to think this is a mistake" are your peers and not more senior?

Second question is: What previous military experience do you have?

As a Reservist, with no military experience, you will most likely be enrolled as an OCdt.  On successful completion of your BMOQ (and CAP) you would then be promoted 2 Lt and then onto your Armour Crses.  Once you have successfully passed the crses to make you a Troop Ldr, you would become a Lt.    Armour is not one of the occupations like the special occupations of Lawyer or Doctor, that would give you special compensation for holding a relevant Degree.

Times have changed quite a bit since I did ROUTP, and the Crses have changed as have their names dozens of times since.  In those days, one was an OCdt and went on a twelve week Phase 1 (now the first two phases of BMOQ, I believe) to be promoted 2 LT.  Twelve weeks of Phase II qualified you LT.  Phase II ROUTP became Phase II and Phase III RESO.  Phase IV RESO qualified you to Capt.  Many courses have come and gone under the bridge and many name changes have happened.   

As I am only an anonymous entity on the internet, check with the OR in the Queen Charlotte Armoury and verify what Pay you are receiving.  That will give you your answer.  If not satisfied, request a conversation with the OC of A Sqn or the CO as to what rank they accepted you into the unit as.  


Approximately what you can expect (as crses are constantly changing): 
As an Armour Reservist you will be required to do the two parts of BMOQ, CAP and then the Armour Phase Crses.  BMOQ is two parts of two weeks each.  CAP has had its name changed, but it is broken down into five modules of two weeks each.  Your Armour Crses will be twelve weeks long.


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## ModlrMike (15 Dec 2013)

DEO is commonly understood to pertain to civilian professions that are directly employable by the CF with little in the way of training. Think MD, Nurse, Physio etc. Perhaps this is part of where your misunderstanding comes from . The rest, as laid out by George is correct.


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## EME Hopeful (15 Dec 2013)

Should be pretty much the same thing for both Reg Force and Reserve so no its not a mistake that you were entered in as an officer Cadet.  You don't make 2Lt until you successfully complete BMOQ.  That is what I was told multiple times while applying for DEO Regular force


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## roughneckrico (15 Dec 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> First question is; "some of my fellow officers seem to think this is a mistake" are your peers and not more senior?
> 
> Second question is: What previous military experience do you have?
> 
> ...



Thank you for your quick answer. 

First question, yes these are peers, junior officers. To me it makes no difference, whether I am OCdt or 2Lt or Lt, I am eager and willing to go through the paces I require to get there. 

Second, I have no experience in the military apart from when I worked as a civilian (for half a decade for DND) in Logisitics, Fleet Maintenance and Construction Engineering divisions.


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## DAA (16 Dec 2013)

You would think that the enrolment standards would be the same across the board but I believe there are some differences given the training "timelines" between Reg F and Res F officer applicants.  Nevertheless, every DEO officer is enrolled as an "OCdt" and generally promotion to 2Lt is backdated to the date of enrolment, once certain requirements have been met.  Reg F DEO Officers require completion of BMOQ but Res F DEO Officers I believe are treated differently.

CFAO 49-10 (Terms of Service - Officers - Primary Reserve)

CFAO 49-10, Annex A, paragraph 9. (Rank on Enrolment)

9.  An officer applicant shall be enrolled in the Primary Reserve in the rank of officer cadet and may be promoted on the same day to a higher rank in accordance with Appendix 3

CFAO 49-10, Annex A, Appendix 3 (Rank following Enrolment)

Serial 5 - Direct Entry - 2Lt - An applicable degree for the desired classification

You should only remain at the OCdt rank, if you do NOT meet the degree requirements for your chosen occupation.  So if you meet the academic requirements, you should be enrolled as an "Officer Cadet" and subsequently promoted to "Second Lieutenant" on the same day.  I believe that the promotion would have to be processed by your Res F Unit but this I am not entirely certain about, so your unit would need to answer this.


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## Bluebulldog (16 Dec 2013)

Seem to recall a pair of new officers coming into my past Regt. 

One was still in University and went off to BMOQ as an OCdt. The other had his degree and went there as a 2Lt.


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## Shamrock (16 Dec 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> You would think that the enrolment standards would be the same across the board but I believe there are some differences given the training "timelines" between Reg F and Res F officer applicants.  Nevertheless, every DEO officer is enrolled as an "OCdt" and generally promotion to 2Lt is backdated to the date of enrolment, once certain requirements have been met.  Reg F DEO Officers require completion of BMOQ but Res F DEO Officers I believe are treated differently.
> 
> CFAO 49-10 (Terms of Service - Officers - Primary Reserve)
> 
> ...



You missed the honking big "MAY" at Para 9.  One can meet the requirements and still not be promoted because the CO does not desire it.


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## DAA (16 Dec 2013)

Shamrock said:
			
		

> You missed the honking big "MAY" at Para 9.  One can meet the requirements and still not be promoted because the CO does not desire it.



No, I saw the "may" but the prerequisites are "having an acceptable degree for the classification".  What I am not certain of (out of my area of expertise) is just who is responsible for initiating/approving the promotion and when?  For Reg F DEO, they are promoted to 2Lt by CFLRS on completion of BMOQ, as they have met the requirements/prerequisites.  As far as I can see, for Res F DEO, if they have the academic requirements for the occupation, then promotion to 2Lt should be somewhat a given.

You gotta have a pretty good reason not to promote someone.

I was hoping that there was someone from a Res Unit up to speed on this, who could answer it.


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## Rocky Mountains (16 Dec 2013)

In my limited experience some years ago, the only rank of entry for officers in the reserves I saw for university graduates was 2LT and  Officer Cadets were usually commissioned long before they got their degree.  Regardless, I don't think there is any difference in treatment.


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## glahaye (16 Dec 2013)

I enrolled this past Thursday as an Engineer Officer in a reserve squadron and was 2LT from my first day.

What the recruiting officer at my squadron told me is that it is customary for DEO officers who already have their bachelor's degree to get an immediate promotion to 2LT on enrollment.

However, I do know of one 2LT in my squadron who already did have his bachelor's on enrollment last year and remained an officer cadet for a few months (I believe until he completed his BMOQ) before being promoted to 2LT.  He told me that's how it used to be and that all the newly enrolled officers who came after him got to be 2LT from day 1.

If I were you, I would simply ask whether your current rank was assigned as intended.  It may just be a clerical error.  My enrollment papers were filled with errors that we corrected as we went through.  For instance, some papers had me as a private.

There is nothing wrong in asking.  I encourage you to do so as there is a slight pay increase from officer cadet to 2LT.

Hope this helps.


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## George Wallace (16 Dec 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> You gotta have a pretty good reason not to promote someone.



One reason, would be that until they have successfully completed BMOQ, there is no need to give them a Commission.  In the past three years, my unit has had at least three OCdts enrolled.  None of them successfully completed BMOQ.  The longest serving unqualified OCdt stayed with us for three years and was needless to say, of no benefit to the unit.  All three have since left.  To have commissioned any of them would have been quite improper and a waste.


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## George Wallace (16 Dec 2013)

Rocky Mountains said:
			
		

> In my limited experience some years ago, the only rank of entry for officers in the reserves I saw for university graduates was 2LT and  Officer Cadets were usually commissioned long before they got their degree.  Regardless, I don't think there is any difference in treatment.



Under the University entry plans, Reserve officers started as OCdts, parading with the unit during the school year and earning tuition money by attending BMOQ, Cap and Occupational Training during the summers.  It was not uncommon for them to be commissioned before they earned a Degree.  Often, by the time they earned a Degree they would have been qualified to become Captains.  See below about the special dispensations of awarding 2Lt rank to persons already holding a Degree as being an archaic throwback to the 18th Century. 

Rocky Mountains and glahaye

Of these three OCdts who joined my unit, one held three Law Degrees from three prestigious universities and is now teaching Law in the US, after less than a year in the unit and not attaining any military training.  Another was/is an Associate Professor at U of O, being employed teaching at RMC and NATO Schools abroad, and completed the first part of BMOQ only and remained in the unit for three years without any further training.  The third was unable to complete any of the training necessary and lingered in our unit and another in another city and back to us, to finally be Released.  None of the three who showed such promise on enrolment successfully finished the basic officer courses, thus never qualifying to progress onto occupation training.

On another take on this, not related to our three unsuccessful OCdts, I have witnessed some cases where people are joining the Reserves for the only reason as to pad a Resume.  This could be in the form of posting on their resume/CV that they were "Commissioned Officers in the CAF" or perhaps were in a 'special' Trade.  Some of these people never achieve any success in becoming trained and qualified in a military occupation as an officer or an NCM.  To automatically enrol someone into the Reserves and give them a Commission due to their social or education circumstances, without their becoming qualified in any way shape or form in a military occupation, is an archaic custom that has no relevance in today's military (other than the Medical, Legal, or Chaplaincy occupations).   As seen in my examples above, what guarantee is there that a candidate will successfully complete their military courses and become qualified in a military occupation?  Handing out 'Commissions' like a 'Canada 125' medal is criminal.  

For the most part those joining the Reserves will have the best of intentions, but circumstances in their lives or employment may intervene and not allow them to fulfill those intentions.  Those who buck the system in attempts to pad a resume/CV or attain some social distinction from being affiliated with the Reserves are very rare.


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## Quaz (16 Dec 2013)

Roughneckrico - I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about your rank. During your initial training (BMQ, BMOQ, BMOQ-L) you'll be mixed in with a variety of Pte(for BMQ) and OCdt/2Lt ranks. It will make no difference what your rank is during your courses. You will be equals and will need to work as equals or you will not be successful. Some of you will be getting $9.92 a day more in pay and that is about all. When you are back in your unit, your CoC will assign you a job based on your abilities, training and the needs of the unit. Again, it probably won't matter what your rank is. You'll be employed and it will be your duty to carry it out to the best of your abilities regardless of your rank. The difference in pay again will be a whopping $4.96 on your average parade night. Don't sweat it, man.

I personally was an OCdt on enrollment and only was commissioned upon completion of BMOQ-L despite having a degree and working on a MA. It didn't bother me in the slightest except for when I couldn't do certain jobs (DutyO, RSO) despite being qualified. A commission is a pretty important thing. It places responsibilities and special trust in you and getting one should be a highlight in your life. It is my opinion that it will feel like an even bigger deal if you have put a few courses down range before you get.


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## Shamrock (17 Dec 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> No, I saw the "may" but the prerequisites are "having an acceptable degree for the classification".  What I am not certain of (out of my area of expertise) is just who is responsible for initiating/approving the promotion and when?  For Reg F DEO, they are promoted to 2Lt by CFLRS on completion of BMOQ, as they have met the requirements/prerequisites.  As far as I can see, for Res F DEO, if they have the academic requirements for the occupation, then promotion to 2Lt should be somewhat a given.
> 
> You gotta have a pretty good reason not to promote someone.
> 
> I was hoping that there was someone from a Res Unit up to speed on this, who could answer it.



The initiation is the CO's but approval is formation.

Reserve promotions are different than RegF - the "may" is very much a may.  PRes Officers will spend much more time in their lieutenancy than their RegF counterparts.  Incidentally, it's also a "may" for a promotion to Cpl.


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## northernboy_24 (17 Dec 2013)

No one should get a commission before they at least have BMOQ.  I know in the reserve artillery world the COs tend not to promote someone to 2Lt until they have completed BMOQ-L.


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## RedcapCrusader (17 Dec 2013)

There's a DEO officer on my BMQ course right now, they are being paid as a 2Lt but they wear the OCdt rank until completes this course and BMOQ then can wear the 2Lt bar from that point.


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## glahaye (17 Dec 2013)

I agree that commissioning an individual right off the bat doesn't make sense.  At the very least, individuals should complete BMOQ before getting a commission.  But that's just an opinion I share with many who wrote in this thread.

The reality is that immediate promotion to 2LT is commonplace.  Given this reality, roughneckrico, I again suggest that you confirm whether your rank was assigned as intended.  Of course, if your superiors in fact wanted you to be OCdt, then that is that.


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## roughneckrico (17 Dec 2013)

Quaz said:
			
		

> Roughneckrico - I wouldn't get too bent out of shape about your rank. During your initial training (BMQ, BMOQ, BMOQ-L) you'll be mixed in with a variety of Pte(for BMQ) and OCdt/2Lt ranks. It will make no difference what your rank is during your courses. You will be equals and will need to work as equals or you will not be successful. Some of you will be getting $9.92 a day more in pay and that is about all. When you are back in your unit, your CoC will assign you a job based on your abilities, training and the needs of the unit. Again, it probably won't matter what your rank is. You'll be employed and it will be your duty to carry it out to the best of your abilities regardless of your rank. The difference in pay again will be a whopping $4.96 on your average parade night. Don't sweat it, man.
> 
> I personally was an OCdt on enrollment and only was commissioned upon completion of BMOQ-L despite having a degree and working on a MA. It didn't bother me in the slightest except for when I couldn't do certain jobs (DutyO, RSO) despite being qualified. A commission is a pretty important thing. It places responsibilities and special trust in you and getting one should be a highlight in your life. It is my opinion that it will feel like an even bigger deal if you have put a few courses down range before you get.



Thanks for the info. I'm not sweating it. I'm just enjoying as things develop.

I'm mostly asking, since my IC was concerned he wasn't able to task me for anything officially around the unit until I got my commission. Sure that extra pay would be nice, but at $4 difference on parade night, it just pays for the beer in the mess after,  ;D


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## RADOPSIGOPACCISOP (17 Dec 2013)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> There's a DEO officer on my BMQ course right now, they are being paid as a 2Lt but they wear the OCdt rank until completes this course and BMOQ then can wear the 2Lt bar from that point.



There's nothing more annoying to a BMQ/BMOQ instructor than having a 2Lt in the course. I've seen course officers/school sqn officers that were insistent that a commissioned officer would not march in the ranks. I've seen other courses where they were required to march around with everyone else. 

Personally I don't think they would get the same training value as 2Lt than as a OCdt. It's easier for the course staff and other students as well. Keeping the 2Lt pay or backdating it afterwards is a good fix.


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## roughneckrico (18 Dec 2013)

RADOPSIGOPACISSOP said:
			
		

> There's nothing more annoying to a BMQ/BMOQ instructor than having a 2Lt in the course. I've seen course officers/school sqn officers that were insistent that a commissioned officer would not march in the ranks. I've seen other courses where they were required to march around with everyone else.
> 
> Personally I don't think they would get the same training value as 2Lt than as a OCdt. It's easier for the course staff and other students as well. Keeping the 2Lt pay or backdating it afterwards is a good fix.



That makes sense. Thanks for the input.


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## Avro (24 Jan 2014)

I have been lurking around the forum for a awhile trying to find as must information as possible but I finally decided to make an account and ask some questions.

I'm a recent university graduate with a bachelors of commerce currently completing an accounting designation looking to join the Reserve Force.
I have always had passion for aviation and planes and would love to serve in the Air Reserve. I live in Winnipeg so with Wing 17 I feel that it isn't a dream too far fetched  ;D I'm also interested (albeit less) in MARS officer or signals officer. However, as a reservist MARS officer or signals officer I'm not sure how much time I would get to spend at sea or in the field. But with an airbase in the city I feel that I will be able to contribute and have a job to do. Do my concerns have any basis? What do MARS/signals officers do on their regularly scheduled parades?

I am also concerned about the time commitment required for training - I have a full time civilian job and generally cannot take more than 3 weeks of vacation at a time, but I think that my employer would be more lenient in allowing me time off since it's for a good cause!

I read that BMOQ can be completed part-time on weekends, how about trade specific training? What are the training time commitments for reserve officers?
How do the duties for Logistics Officers, Signals Officers, and MARS Officers differ from regular to reserve? I have an idea about those jobs for regular forces based on information found on forces.ca
I haven't spoken to a recruiter yet because I don't plan on applying until I'm nearing completion of my designation (in 2015). I wish I could apply now but I know I won't be able to handle the workload.
I appreciate your help in taking time to answer my questions.


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## DAA (24 Jan 2014)

Avro said:
			
		

> I have been lurking around the forum for a awhile trying to find as must information as possible but I finally decided to make an account and ask some questions.
> I'm a recent university graduate with a bachelors of commerce currently completing an accounting designation looking to join the Reserve Force.
> I have always had passion for aviation and planes and would love to serve in the Air Reserve. I live in Winnipeg so with Wing 17 I feel that it isn't a dream too far fetched  ;D I'm also interested (albeit less) in MARS officer or signals officer. However, as a reservist MARS officer or signals officer I'm not sure how much time I would get to spend at sea or in the field. But with an airbase in the city I feel that I will be able to contribute and have a job to do. Do my concerns have any basis? What do MARS/signals officers do on their regularly scheduled parades?
> I am also concerned about the time commitment required for training - I have a full time civilian job and generally cannot take more than 3 weeks of vacation at a time, but I think that my employer would be more lenient in allowing me time off since it's for a good cause!
> ...



If your interested in joining any of the Reserve elements (Land, Sea or Air) you need to speak to those specific units "directly" even before submitting an application.  Speaking to them doesn't involve a commitment, other than a few minutes of your time.  

Here is the link to locate Reserve Units in your area  -  http://www.forces.ca/en/centres/findarecruiter-110#na-1#ar-2#af-3#he-4#na-1


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## Brasidas (25 Jan 2014)

Avro said:
			
		

> I have been lurking around the forum for a awhile trying to find as must information as possible but I finally decided to make an account and ask some questions.
> 
> I'm a recent university graduate with a bachelors of commerce currently completing an accounting designation looking to join the Reserve Force.
> I have always had passion for aviation and planes and would love to serve in the Air Reserve. I live in Winnipeg so with Wing 17 I feel that it isn't a dream too far fetched  ;D I'm also interested (albeit less) in MARS officer or signals officer. However, as a reservist MARS officer or signals officer I'm not sure how much time I would get to spend at sea or in the field. But with an airbase in the city I feel that I will be able to contribute and have a job to do. Do my concerns have any basis? What do MARS/signals officers do on their regularly scheduled parades?
> ...



I can't speak to the whole of officer trades, but I can assure you that trade-specific training for Signal Officers and MARS officers can not be completed on weekends.

Figuring something out for this training is on you, but I know that if I had to spend all of my vacation time to go on military training, I would have had trouble at home. There is a reason why many of those who have time to go on course at my unit are students or public servants who have flexible LWOP options, and why there are a handful of aged corporals who may never go on a leadership course despite the desires of their CoC.


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