# Ribbons



## caocao (17 Apr 2012)

I have a member due for his CD 3  at the end of the month and he will probably be out of the CF (CRA) later this summer.  My question is can he wear his CD 3 ribbon based on eligibility date or does he have to wait until he is presented with it at an H&A ceremony?  The reason i am asking is because of his upcoming retirement and by the time his "official" ribbon arrives he might be out of uniform already.

Thanks


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## Pusser (17 Apr 2012)

Simply being eligible does not mean the award has been made.  The Instrument conferring the award still has to be signed and won't be signed until the member has completed the time.  Your best bet is to contact the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (through your chain of command) to see what you can do to ensure the process goes as quickly and smoothly as possible.  As for the presentation itself, it doesn't have to be a big parade, the CO can do it privately (which is quicker and easier to organize).  It's up to the unit, but policy dictates it should be done with as much dignity as possible.


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## eurowing (17 Apr 2012)

CD's being presented a year late has always pissed me off.  There is no excuse for it at all.  12 years notice for the CD and 10 years notice for each bar.  Seriously, this should be the slickest system in NATO.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch.....  I wait for my 3 bars for Afghanistan service, which will be at least a year late...  just for the last one.


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## fraserdw (17 Apr 2012)

During the rule of Comrade Jean Creeptan, all awards of CDs were 3 to 4 years off due to budget!


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## Pusser (17 Apr 2012)

A lot of the administration used to be done in advance for CDs, but too many folks were p***ing in the pickles at the last minute and they had to be retracted (after Instruments being signed, medals being engraved, etc). A policy decision was made that full eligibility had to be established before the process of actually issuing the medal would begin.


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## Danjanou (17 Apr 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> During the rule of Comrade Jean Creeptan, all awards of CDs were 3 to 4 years off due to budget!



Ah that's why mine was late, and here I thought it was because..........er never mind. >


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## 211RadOp (17 Apr 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> During the rule of Comrade Jean Creeptan, all awards of CDs were 3 to 4 years off due to budget!



I received mine about a month after I was due (Mar 96), so I don't think this is totally accurate.


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## MJP (17 Apr 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> During the rule of Comrade Jean Creeptan, all awards of CDs were 3 to 4 years off due to budget!



I hardly think that was the case.  Despite what some think not everything is as nefarious as the rumour mill makes it out to be.  Pusser's explanation makes much more sense than a broadbrush statement like yours.


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## aesop081 (17 Apr 2012)

I receive mine one week after i was due, and that was during the time where the Liberals formed government.


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## Rifleman62 (17 Apr 2012)

I am assuming the slang phrase "CD 3"  actually means the CD and two bars representing 32 years and not the CD with three bars representing 42 years.

Pusser: 





> Simply being eligible does not mean the award has been made.


  Yes. If the member has served the full 32 years and there has been no incident that would result in not receiving the award, then the criteria has been met but the paper work is incomplete.

caocao: 





> due for his CD 3  at the *end of the month* and he will probably be out of the CF (CRA) *later this summer*



Pusser:





> * The Instrument conferring the award still has to be signed and won't be signed until the member has completed the time.*


  And who is this responsible authority who actually puts pen to paper and signs a document, or who does the administrative computer input. Not rocket science no matter who does it. Is there a system in place to ensure that action is taken to confirm the member has met the criteria and this lofty person whose job it is, does use a pen or press a key board on a timely basis.

Pusser: 





> Your best bet is to contact the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (through your chain of command) to see what you can do to ensure the process goes as quickly and smoothly as possible.


 Correct. And you could ask for a favor to have the box expedited. (See if there is another CWO around to confab with)

Pusser: 





> As for the presentation itself, it doesn't have to be a big parade, the CO can do it privately (which is quicker and easier to organize).  It's up to the unit, but policy dictates it should be done with as much dignity as possible.


 I cannot believe you wrote that in reply to a CWO!

When a decoration is gazetted, the member is authorized to wear the undress ribbon. The CD and campaign awards are not gazetted. IMHO the practice is the same. Criteria met, wear the undress ribbon (the very few times anyone wears undress ribbons).

Option: See the base tailor. She will make up a ribbon and sew two rosettes on it. Someone has a CD box around. Additionally you can get the CD ribbon with two rosettes and slide in on the members medal bar (most likely the last ribbon on the bar) during or after the presentation.

We make life to difficult; we should be commonsensical.  Administrative Masturbation. We beat ourselves to death with paperwork.


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## aesop081 (17 Apr 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> I am assuming the slang phrase "CD 3"  actually means the CD and two bars representing 32 years and not the CD with three bars representing 42 years.



Why would you assume that ?

Someone joining at 17 and serving until CRA 60 would have 43 years of service.


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## Michael OLeary (17 Apr 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> I am assuming the slang phrase "CD 3"  actually means the CD and two bars representing 32 years and not the CD with three bars representing 42 years.



It's not exactly slang since that is how the level of award received is expressed on the Member's Personnel Record Resume (MPRR). That adds to the confusion over how post-nominals should be written, but the post-nominal has not changed from "CD" no matter how many bars are worn.



			
				Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Pusser:  I cannot believe you wrote that in reply to a CWO!



The audience for any reply is seldom only the original poster. Cryptic answers which assume the person doesn't need a clear response only leads to questions when someone else wants the full answer anyway.


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## George Wallace (17 Apr 2012)

eurowing said:
			
		

> CD's being presented a year late has always pissed me off.  There is no excuse for it at all.  12 years notice for the CD and 10 years notice for each bar.  Seriously, this should be the slickest system in NATO.  Meanwhile, back at the ranch.....  I wait for my 3 bars for Afghanistan service, which will be at least a year late...  just for the last one.



SO?  After 10 years, what would have happened if you had punched out your WO?   No CD in 12.  Then why would the Government waste money on your CD.  Minting a personalized medal is a lot different than one that comes without any personalized engravings.  Heck, there are still hundreds of 125 Medals sitting in drawers of Members of Parliament that are past their expiry date......Want to be a Frontiersman?   Go for it.


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## aesop081 (17 Apr 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Heck, there are still hundreds of 125 Medals sitting in drawers of Members of Parliament that are past their expiry date......Want to be a Frontiersman?   Go for it.



I don't think that any of your comment quoted here has to do with anything being discussed.


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## jollyjacktar (17 Apr 2012)

211RadOp said:
			
		

> I received mine about a month after I was due (Mar 96), so I don't think this is totally accurate.


You're lucky, I was due in 96.  Did not see mine presented until late 97 early 98.  Had to put in my own paperwork to get my first GCS, after I came home.  

The system is only as good as the Admin staff who are part of the process.  Yours apparently were on the ball, others apparently could not find theirs with both hands, instructions a mirror and flashlight.  I do object to medals sitting in a OR file cabinet  for an unspecified period of time so that it suits the presenter's timings for a big dog and pony show.  Awards should be decided upon, ordered and presented in a timely fashion.  It's 8 months and counting since I earned the OSM, bet that will take some time coming too.


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## Fishbone Jones (17 Apr 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I don't think that any of your comment quoted here has to do with anything being discussed.



Yeah, like threads haven't been totally derailed by some others in this thread before, right?


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## aesop081 (17 Apr 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Yeah, like threads haven't been totally derailed by some others in this thread before, right?



Whatever.

Eurowing's comment had nothing to do with "medal-seeking" and George's comment was nothing but trolling.


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## Rifleman62 (17 Apr 2012)

Cdn Aviator: 





> Someone joining at 17 and serving until CRA 60 would have 43 years of service.



Or getting in underage, and serving 45 years.


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## fraserdw (17 Apr 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> You're lucky, I was due in 96.  Did not see mine presented until late 97 early 98.  Had to put in my own paperwork to get my first GCS, after I came home.
> 
> The system is only as good as the Admin staff who are part of the process.  Yours apparently were on the ball, others apparently could not find theirs with both hands, instructions a mirror and flashlight.  I do object to medals sitting in a OR file cabinet  for an unspecified period of time so that it suits the presenter's timings for a big dog and pony show.  Awards should be decided upon, ordered and presented in a timely fashion.  It's 8 months and counting since I earned the OSM, bet that will take some time coming too.



Thats what I was on about due in 97 and did not see it til 99.  In 96 we were told in the CO's O Grp that there was a hold on CD's due to budget constraints.


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## Rifleman62 (17 Apr 2012)

That may have been the period there was quality control problems with the supplier. Happened in the late eighties also. The bars to the CD, the raised bar on the base, were crooked at one point.

There are ways to recognize service people on a timely basis, even if not all the "t" are dotted and the "i" crossed.


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## caocao (18 Apr 2012)

Just to clarify, by CD 3 i meant 42 years of service.  The member will be eligible on the 30 Apr and i have told him that he could wear the ribbon at that time.  When/if the box shows up before he retires it will be presented at one of our quarterly H&A ceremony.


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## Danjanou (18 Apr 2012)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Heck, there are still hundreds of 125 Medals sitting in drawers of Members of Parliament that are past their expiry date......



Can we hand them out to those that didn't get a QDJM? >


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## medicineman (18 Apr 2012)

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Can we hand them out to those that didn't get a QDJM? >



The problem there might be that you'd have to come up with a bar for the Can125, as alot of the folks getting the QDJM might already have it...

MM


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## 2 Cdo (19 Apr 2012)

Talking about late awards, I was due my CD in 97 and received it in 2002.  

But when I was due my first bar I was presented it within days of my eligibility.


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## Journeyman (19 Apr 2012)

I suspect that someone would have to have some mighty cajones to jack-up a guy with 42 years in, on retirement, because the paperwork is not yet through for his latest CD bar/rosette. Just do it.



But in the past I may have, on occasion, contravened the odd CFAO......to say nothing of legal statutes, common sense, and possibly even some laws of physics.   :nod:


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## NSDreamer (19 Apr 2012)

:goodpost:


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## dapaterson (19 Apr 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> But in the past I may have, on occasion, contravened _*the odd-numbered CFAOs and the even-numbered CFAOs*_......to say nothing of legal statutes, common sense, and possibly even some laws of physics.   :nod:



FTFY.


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## Pusser (19 Apr 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> When a decoration is gazetted, the member is authorized to wear the undress ribbon. The CD and campaign awards are not gazetted. IMHO the practice is the same. Criteria met, wear the undress ribbon (the very few times anyone wears undress ribbons).
> 
> Option: See the base tailor. She will make up a ribbon and sew two rosettes on it. Someone has a CD box around. Additionally you can get the CD ribbon with two rosettes and slide in on the members medal bar (most likely the last ribbon on the bar) during or after the presentation.
> 
> We make life to difficult; we should be commonsensical.  Administrative Masturbation. We beat ourselves to death with paperwork.



Actually, individuals are often entitled to wear the undress ribbon long before a decoration is gazetted.  Gazetting is simply the official government announcement, not the actual conferment of the award.  The actual conferment is often the Instrument (signed by the GG for those decorations that require it).  In the case of the CD, there is no Instrument (I correct my earlier statement somewhat).  HOWEVER, the member's CO still has to confirm honourable service to DH&R before the award is made.  Simply going to the Base Tailor to have a new ribbon made up with a second rosette would be inappropriate.  It may even be in violation of Sect 419 of the Criminal Code:

_419. Every one who *without lawful authority*, the proof of which lies on him,...

(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,...

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction._

You can call me officious and pedantic all you like, but if I was the CO in question, I would be very uneasy about doing as you suggest.  I would be calling DH&R and greasing the skids to make sure everything was done properly and as quickly as possible, rather than simply ignoring the "administrative masturbation."  Common sense is a wonderful thing and we would have a lot less bureacracy in this outfit if folks could actually be trusted to use it occasionally.  Most rules exist because someone failed to use common sense in the past and so we now need a rule to force it.


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## Journeyman (19 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> You can call me officious and pedantic all you like, but if I was the CO in question, I would be very uneasy about doing as you suggest.


You are officious and pedantic. 

"Know your men and promote their well-being," and "seek out and accept responsibility," are not mere clichés, even though they're not likely to be found in CFAOs. 

*Getting this guy the CD bar for his retirement parade is the right thing to do*. 

That 42 years of service could be addressed by someone shrugging, saying, "I tried to hurry up DHH; it was the CFAOs that screwed him over, not me...but _~whew~_  my butt is covered," makes me hope that such a person would never be 'the CO in question,' for the sake of the subordinates.



Mind you, that fact that all this hand-wringing is being bandied about on an internet forum by someone whose profile claims he's a CWO, also leaves me to wonder what happened to old-school CWOs.


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## Pusser (19 Apr 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> You are officious and pedantic.
> 
> "Know your men and promote their well-being," and "seek out and accept responsibility," are not mere clichés, even though they're not likely to be found in CFAOs.
> 
> ...



I'm not saying don't do it.  Nor do I accept the argument that it's acceptable to blame a lack of action on the regulations.  I'm saying, do it properly and force the system to work.  This way, you don't create messes that need to be cleaned up later (with much embarrassment all around - especially for the person we're trying to honour.  Backdoor solutions often backfire.  From what I can gather from the original question, there is still plenty of time to do it right.  A phone call to the right desk can often do wonders.  On that note, you would wait a long time to get DHH (Directorate of History and Heritage) to deal with this as they have *nothing* to do with it.  It is the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DH&R) that handles this.  They are a separate organization and have been for several years now.  Oops, there goes that pedantry again...

Why is there never time to do things right, but always time to do them over?


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Apr 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Mind you, that fact that all this hand-wringing is being bandied about on an internet forum by someone whose profile claims he's a CWO, also leaves me to wonder what happened to old-school CWOs.



Last situation I saw like this, the 'person' made up his ribbon and two rosettes, put it into the CD box he had on hand, gave it to the RSM, the RSM to the CO.

The CO came out and presented it.

Yes, it is overdue, for no other reason than 'paperwork kerfuffles'. Still waiting on the official one, 3\4 of a year late so far, but was indented for last June......or not, depending on which person in the OR you speak to.

So, to answer your question Journeyman, there is some of us still around that know how to cut through clag


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I'm not saying don't do it.  Nor do I accept the argument that it's acceptable to blame a lack of action on the regulations.  I'm saying, do it properly and force the system to work.  This way, you don't create messes that need to be cleaned up later (with much embarrassment all around - especially for the person we're trying to honour.  Backdoor solutions often backfire.  From what I can gather from the original question, there is still plenty of time to do it right.  A phone call to the right desk can often do wonders.  On that note, you would wait a long time to get DHH (Directorate of History and Heritage) to deal with this as they have *nothing* to do with it.  It is the Directorate of Honours and Recognition (DH&R) that handles this.  They are a separate organization and have been for several years now.  Oops, there goes that pedantry again...
> 
> Why is there never time to do things right, but always time to do them over?



It's a CD rosette, not a Victoria Cross.  :facepalm:


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## Danjanou (19 Apr 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Mind you, that fact that all this hand-wringing is being bandied about on an internet forum by someone whose profile claims he's a CWO, also leaves me to wonder what happened to old-school CWOs.



Not sure about others but some of us are herding cats with Alzheimer's down at the local Legion hall and bemoaning what happened to our beloved army ( or navy or airforce)



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> It's a CD rosette, not a Victoria Cross.  :facepalm:



And can you imagine the goat rodeo involved if it were with some of the players involved here.


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## Pusser (19 Apr 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It's a CD rosette, not a Victoria Cross.  :facepalm:



Has anyone considered that the individual might feel slighted because someone only had the forethought to go to Clothing Stores?

Be it a bar to the CD or a VC, they're both honours from the Crown and should be treated with respect.  Anything worth doing is worth doing properly.  I still argue that there is sufficient time and that a band-aid solution is neither required nor appropriate.  

I'm not against band-aid solutions, when necessary, but you better be pretty darn sure they're necessary before I sign on.  I'm not a big fan of cleaning up messes because others didn't do their jobs properly.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Has anyone considered that the individual might feel slighted because someone only had the forethought to go to Clothing Stores?
> 
> Be it a bar to the CD or a VC, they're both honours from the Crown and should be treated with respect.  Anything worth doing is worth doing properly.  I still argue that there is sufficient time and that a band-aid solution is neither required nor appropriate.
> 
> I'm not against band-aid solutions, when necessary, but you better be pretty darn sure they're necessary before I sign on.  I'm not a big fan of cleaning up messes because others didn't do their jobs properly.



I'll guarantee the individual wasn't feeling slighted then, when the CO presented it, or now.

Got important stuff to go do now.


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## dogger1936 (19 Apr 2012)

At the JPSU in Gagetown you get your CD sent by mail. Many warm wonderful feelings from our injured guys there getting a medal presented by Canada post.


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## armyvern (19 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Has anyone considered that the individual might feel slighted because someone only had the forethought to go to Clothing Stores?
> 
> Be it a bar to the CD or a VC, they're both honours from the Crown and should be treated with respect.  Anything worth doing is worth doing properly.  I still argue that there is sufficient time and that a band-aid solution is neither required nor appropriate.
> 
> I'm not against band-aid solutions, when necessary, but you better be pretty darn sure they're necessary before I sign on.  I'm not a big fan of cleaning up messes because others didn't do their jobs properly.



42 years of service!! Word up from a CSM point of view: a Member of the CF should _*also*_ be treated with respect ... I'd even say that, after 42 years of service, the system should go out of it's way to be respectful to that member and get their process' in line to ensure that this member is recognized on time. Period.

Yep, anything worth doing is worth doing properly (that proper_ness_ also includes "efficiently and effectively"). So when the system seems to be incapable of pulling that "proper" thing off in all it's glory in an effective and efficient manner that respects the dignity of the member, then let the RSM and CO do what they need to do to ensure that happens themselves. If going to clothing and having a rosette mounted onto a ribbon bar preserves that respectfulness of the member and his service --- so be it and AWESOME on them. I`d back them up every single time.


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## jollyjacktar (19 Apr 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> At the JPSU in Gagetown you get your CD sent by mail. Many warm wonderful feelings from our injured guys there getting a medal presented by Canada post.


I was slid my CD1 across the dutch door top as a favour by the Swain, and just had to sign for it.  The other one which was my GCS I had to dog and pony for as it was fairly rare in the Fleet at the time.  Frankly I was very pleased with the sign and go.  They could mail my next coming medal to me too and I would be very happy with that.  I hate being the centre of attention, even when it's not because I'm in shyte.


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## medicineman (19 Apr 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I hate being the centre of attention, even when it's not because I'm in shyte.



Most normal folks don't...however, the military does like to ensure that things we take for granted, like people sticking around for a long time, doing their job and doing it (hopefully) well, are recognized.  And as the decoration is from the Sovereign via the Government of Canada, a suitable presentation is actually expected to be made - they're showing you appreciation for what you've done on their behalf...and at the same time, your unit should do you the same common courtesy on the government's behalf.  It's also a way of showing the young'ens what they get for doing good work and hopefully someone to emulate.  Getting a medal in the mail is complete BS as far as I'm concerned - even if it is a CD or bar for it, since you did something to deserve it.  The person getting it deserves to get it on time as well - kind of takes the whole "we appreciate what you've done and are looking out for you" out of it when you get your rosette at the same time you get the original medal.  I think someone else mentioned it earlier - it's just plain, good old fashioned leadership. 

 :2c:

MM


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## jollyjacktar (19 Apr 2012)

I hear what you're saying and can appreciate the need on behalf of the machine to do the right thing by the member.  Most folks appreciate the recognition of a job well done and the spirit in which it's made too.  After all that's why Depart with Dignity came about.  I'm just not one of those individuals who needs or thrives on the recognition.  Rather the opposite for me, my time of departure is in sight or at least I can hear the footsteps down the hall.  I have made it crystal clear that when the last day comes, I walk out the door at the end of the day without a DWD fuss or beer call etc.  I'm not bitter, don't get me wrong but I don't wish to receive the letters of thanks from all and sundry or have a shadow box with the ensign in.  I think I'm more of the Macarthur vein "old soldiers sailors never die they just fade away".


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## medicineman (19 Apr 2012)

That's kind of how my retirement went  .  My DWD was a pretty short and intimate affair, which I liked.  My last day at work was one nobody really noticed because it was Graduation Parade for the QL5A CD course, so I snuck out after the celebrations, cleaned out my office and locker, managed to avoid getting tossed in the drink, went home and packed to leave.  My last day in uniform was after that weekend, cleared out of the BOR, said goodbye to some friends and colleagues, went home and packed the car and drove off the next day.

MM


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## Old Sweat (19 Apr 2012)

Way back in the bad, old days, 1RCHA in Germany circa 1969 was saying good bye to a bombardier ( actually he had remustered to cook, so he was a corporal) with a jillion years in the regiment, at least as far back as Korea. In fact his service was almost as long as his conduct sheet. He was one of the troops who never blew his own horn, but was there all the time no matter how crappy the conditions. Anyway, he came out of the shack to leave the regiment to go into the big, green machine back in the land of Hockey Night in Canada. To his surprise, he was met by the CO and the RSM who escorted him to the saluting base. The senior regular regiment in the Canadian Army was formed up on the square with its Colours on parade and rolled past this soldier leaving his home as he stood, saluting and bawling like a baby.

Surely we can thank somebody for his years of service without calling the NIS!


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## jollyjacktar (19 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Has anyone considered that the individual might feel slighted because someone only had the forethought to go to Clothing Stores?
> 
> Be it a bar to the CD or a VC, they're both honours from the Crown and should be treated with respect.  Anything worth doing is worth doing properly.  I still argue that there is sufficient time and that a band-aid solution is neither required nor appropriate.
> 
> I'm not against band-aid solutions, when necessary, but you better be pretty darn sure they're necessary before I sign on.  I'm not a big fan of cleaning up messes because others didn't do their jobs properly.


Pusser, if you don't watch it you'll slide from being a noun to an adjective.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Apr 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> At the JPSU in Gagetown you get your CD sent by mail. Many warm wonderful feelings from our injured guys there getting a medal presented by Canada post.



I've had my CD and a SSM delivered that way, by Canada Post. Took them into the Regiment, turned them over and had them presented properly.


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## Pusser (20 Apr 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Pusser, if you don't watch it you'll slide from being a noun to an adjective.



I refuse to accept being the bad guy here just because I expect every possible avenue to do something properly be exhausted before resorting to a bandaid solution.  Sometimes folks are far too quick to run for the backdoor as soon as they hit one snag, rather than sort the problem and force the system to do its job.  The OP stated that the bar was due at the end of this month, but that the member was not retiring until later this summer.  To me, that is at least two, if not three months to sort this.  That is plenty of time to make a phone call to DH&R to try and expedite the issue.  In short, there is still plenty of time to do it right, so I would argue that immediately resorting to a half-a$$ed solution is not only unnecessary, it's unprofessional.  Furthermore, I would hope that any CWO who is dealing with this is keeping his/her CO in the loop and giving the CO a chance to make a phone call if necessary.  The desired result here is not an unreasonable request and the folks at DH&R want to do right by people.  If you ask, you just might get what you want, but in all fairness, if you want something out of the norm, you have to let people know.

In all my reading on leadership over the years, I have never found that "know your troops and promote their welfare," has a caveat that says, "regardless of any relevant law, policy or regulation."  Just about anything can be accomplished in this outfit.  It's a leader's job to figure out how to do it right (saves embarrassing courts martial in the long run).


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## caocao (20 Apr 2012)

I'm in the NCR so the dress of the day is 3B; the member in question wear ribbons everyday.  We are getting him the 3 rosette ribbons from the clothing store and starting 30 Apr (that's when he will be eligible according to his MPRR) i gave him the go ahead to start wearing it.  Once we get the "official box" we will present it in a formal setting and at that time he can get his medals court mounted.

Case closed...


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## aesop081 (20 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> It's a leader's job to figure out how to do it right



"Managers do things right.

Leaders do the right thing"


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## Pusser (20 Apr 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> "Managers do things right.
> 
> Leaders do the right thing"



Doing it right and doing the right thing are not mutually exclusive.  Leaders should strive to do both.


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## aesop081 (20 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Doing it right and doing the right thing are not mutually exclusive.



Just like they are not always the same thing.

Leaders know the difference.


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## dapaterson (20 Apr 2012)

Honours, Awards and Recognition (HAR) are badly broken in the CF.  

Reflect on the raid on Dieppe: within a month and a half, LCol Merritt's VC for that action was gazetted (raid: 19 August; gazetting: 02 October).  Meanwhile, a CANFORGEN came out this week awarding CDS commendations for work in 2010.

So, highest honour for valour in the Commonwealth: 45 days.  For CDS recognition: 500+ days.  The modern CF is obscenely bureaucratic, with excess staff churn to little or no result at all levels.


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## armyvern (20 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> ... Just about anything can be accomplished in this outfit.  It's a leader's job to figure out how to do it right (saves embarrassing courts martial in the long run).



Just to be clear then, you simply *must* be well aware that it is the member's Commanding Officer who signs off on the proforma noting that criteria has been met for the CD and authorizes it's issue; that is then sent to DHH for them to issue.

Ergo, when it does not arrive, that CO (and the member's RSM) are, despite your protestations otherwise, well aware as to whether or not member has met the criteria for the CD and bars to that CD. If it is not yet received, then they, certainly have the where-with-all to know their troops, promote their welfare, and go to clothing to get a ribbon to present. As the CO is the one who certified that criteria was met, I'd put that under the heading of "outstanding leadership".


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## armyvern (20 Apr 2012)

caocao said:
			
		

> I'm in the NCR so the dress of the day is 3B; the member in question wear ribbons everyday.  We are getting him the 3 rosette ribbons from the clothing store and starting 30 Apr (that's when he will be eligible according to his MPRR) i gave him the go ahead to start wearing it.  Once we get the "official box" we will present it in a formal setting and at that time he can get his medals court mounted.
> 
> Case closed...



Good on you.


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## Pusser (22 Apr 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Just to be clear then, you simply *must* be well aware that it is the member's Commanding Officer who signs off on the proforma noting that criteria has been met for the CD and authorizes it's issue; that is then sent to DHH for them to issue.
> 
> Ergo, when it does not arrive, that CO (and the member's RSM) are, despite your protestations otherwise, well aware as to whether or not member has met the criteria for the CD and bars to that CD. If it is not yet received, then they, certainly have the where-with-all to know their troops, promote their welfare, and go to clothing to get a ribbon to present. As the CO is the one who certified that criteria was met, I'd put that under the heading of "outstanding leadership".



Alright, I'll concede that.  However, has the CO signed the pro forma?  There's no indication in the original post to indicate that.  The OP is simply going off the CD forecast on the member's MPRR.

For everyone who thinks I'm being a stick in the mud over this.  I'm not saying that I think we should knuckle under and accept bureaucratic delays.  I have never believed that and in fact, I have spent my career trying to sort through the BS and get things done in spite of the bureaucracy.  However, I've also had to clean up messes numerous times, because someone thought they were smarter than the system and tried to use the back door.  Frankly, there are some folks out there who have me to thank for not being in jail.  All I have been trying to get across is that there are things that have to be done to make things work.  The system can be expedited, but it sometimes requires positive control.  What disappoints me here is that too many folks simply leap to the apparently easy bandaid solution, without even trying to make sure it's done right.

I ask you this.  What would all you CSMs, Coxswains, RSMs do if some young private/AB decided to promote himself  and start wearing his single chevron on his own accord?  After all, it's an automatic promotion, there's no pay involved, and it's based strictly on time in and qualifications.  If he'd met all the criteria, but the unit had not gotten around to actually presenting the guy with his new chevron, would it be OK for him to start wearing it?


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## Jarnhamar (22 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I ask you this.  What would all you CSMs, Coxswains, RSMs do if some young private/AB decided to promote himself  and start wearing his single chevron on his own accord?  After all, it's an automatic promotion, there's no pay involved, and it's based strictly on time in and qualifications.  If he'd met all the criteria, but the unit had not gotten around to actually presenting the guy with his new chevron, would it be OK for him to start wearing it?



Would many units even notice a no hook private giving himself a hook and wearing it?


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## Pusser (22 Apr 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Would many units even notice a no hook private giving himself a hook and wearing it?



That's beside the point.  I have actually seen this happen.


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## aesop081 (22 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I have actually seen this happen.



I've not only seen it done, but i have done it myself.

Most units *I* have been a member of never made a formal presentation of the first hook. It is only in recent years that *I* have seen this become common.


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Alright, I'll concede that.  However, has the CO signed the pro forma?  There's no indication in the original post to indicate that.  The OP is simply going off the CD forecast on the member's MPRR.
> ...



Well, original poster seems to be the RSM; he wouldn't be much of one of he didn't have the COs ear now would he?  

(Nor much of one either if he hadn't been involved in the official process providing input as to "conduct sheet" etc)

Really, COs do know what's up with their RSMs who, in tune, keep the CO up on what's up with the troops. Just sayin'.


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## Nfld Sapper (22 Apr 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I've not only seen it done, but i have done it myself.
> 
> Most units *I* have been a member of never made a formal presentation of the first hook. It is only in recent years that *I* have seen this become common.



Same in my unit, first hook is put up after MOD 7 of Section Member Course no formal presentation. Cpl's on up are formaly presented in a Sqn Parade...


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## Pusser (22 Apr 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, original poster seems to be the RSM; he wouldn't be much of one of he didn't have the COs ear now would he?
> 
> (Nor much of one either if he hadn't been involved in the official process providing input as to "conduct sheet" etc)
> 
> Really, COs do know what's up with their RSMs who, in tune, keep the CO up on what's up with the troops. Just sayin'.



Agreed, but he doesn't say that.  He said that HE told the member to simply put up the new ribbon based on the MPRR.  At no point has the OP said that he's even mentioned it to the CO.


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## Pusser (22 Apr 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I've not only seen it done, but i have done it myself.
> 
> Most units *I* have been a member of never made a formal presentation of the first hook. It is only in recent years that *I* have seen this become common.



You're avoiding the question.  The fact is, regardless of what has happened in the past, we now see this done as a parade.  In those units where this is normally done on parade, would an RSM or Coxswain be OK if the member simply chose to put it up on their own?


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Would many units even notice a no hook private giving himself a hook and wearing it?



I would think so.

During work-ups to deploy, we had an augmentee go home on Christmas Leave and come back wearing the new rank. When asked, he said that he had been presented it at his Men's Christmas Dinner (Yes, that's what I call it - kittens are dying right now). Verified - of course (this shit does not just "appear" on people out of the blue without paperwork having to occur). Busted.

And he was an augmentee; I'd wager that CSMs are even more familiar with their full-time, permanent staff.


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Agreed, but he doesn't say that.  He said that HE told the member to simply put up the new ribbon based on the MPRR.  At no point has the OP said that he's even mentioned it to the CO.



Nor does he say that it isn't done does he Pusser?

Keep digging.

He's the freaking RSM; not a cyberspace RSM quoting "without lawful authority" regulations when his CO *is* the signer of the lawful authority docs.

His troop; his CO; his Unit. Funny how you allegedly know it better than he does.


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## jollyjacktar (22 Apr 2012)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> "Managers do things right.
> 
> Leaders do the right thing"



"Zing!!"


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## aesop081 (22 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> You're avoiding the question.



Wasn't trying to answer it. In fact, i was not even responding to a question.


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## Pusser (22 Apr 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Nor does he say that it isn't done does he Pusser?
> 
> Keep digging.
> 
> ...



No, he doesn't say he didn't discuss it with his CO, but he does say he's in the NCR and knowing how things work in the NCR...

There are no RSMs in the NCR.  There is the CFSU(O) Chief, but I don't think he's involved in this, nor do I suspect that the CFSU(O) Cmdt (who is the CO for all NDHQ pers) is involved either.  I could be wrong, but I still think something's amiss.  The sad part is that it doesn't need to be.

You have conceded that a private should not be promoting himself and putting up a chevron without proper authority, despite being fully qualified.  So how can you then accept the wearing of a national honour based solely on a forecast (which is not a definitive statement of entitlement) in a document that is infamous for being inaccurate?  Is it not virtually the same?  So far, all the OP has said he's done is consult an MPRR.  I would argue that this is insufficient.  If he's done more, then let him say so.


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## dapaterson (22 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> _*There are no RSMs in the NCR. *_ There is the CFSU(O) Chief, but I don't think he's involved in this, nor do I suspect that the CFSU(O) Cmdt (who is the CO for all NDHQ pers) is involved either.  I could be wrong, but I still think something's amiss.  The sad part is that it doesn't need to be.



The GGFG has no RSM?  The CH of O has no RSM?  30 Fd Regt (RCA) has no RSM?  The R de Hull has no RSM?  There are no units of the Canadian Forces in the NCR?


Wow.  Lots of people I have to tell that they and their positions don't exist.


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## aesop081 (22 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> There are no RSMs in the NCR.



You want to reconsider that statement ? There's a whole world outside of NDHQ you may not be aware of. Time to step outside the cube farm.



> the CFSU(O) Cmdt (who is the CO for all NDHQ pers)



You know there are units in the NCR other than NDHQ ? I am in the NCR, do not belong to NDHQ and the CFSU(O) Cmdt is not in my CoC at all.


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## Nfld Sapper (22 Apr 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The GGFG has no RSM?  The CH of O has no RSM?  30 Fd Regt (RCA) has no RSM?  The R de Hull has no RSM?  There are no units of the Canadian Forces in the NCR?
> 
> 
> Wow.  Lots of people I have to tell that they and their positions don't exist.



Don't forget 33 CER......


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## armyvern (22 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> You have conceded that a private should not be promoting himself and putting up a chevron without proper authority, despite being fully qualified.  So how can you then accept the wearing of a national honour based solely on a forecast (which is not a definitive statement of entitlement) in a document that is infamous for being inaccurate?  Is it not virtually the same?  So far, all the OP has said he's done is consult an MPRR.  I would argue that this is insufficient.  If he's done more, then let him say so.



Concede this Pusser:

The Pte has NO f'ng idea or knowledge as to whether his CO has signed off and authorized that promotion or not does he? Oh, and being that one of the pre-reqs for promotion is "Recommendation of the CO" ... the Pte could never state that "I Know I meet all the pre-reqs", so I'll just give it to myself (as you are suggesting is the situation in your quote above).

See the difference yet? The RSM is damn well aware though.

Not so the RSM, Div CWO, Section CWO, Directorate CWO etc (I'll list a whole bunch of CWO positional names off for you, as the RCN and RCAF do not have any "RSMs" either  : ) But you are well aware of that factoid and are well aware that CWO's have their COs ear --- *whatever* their position happens to be named in the location of their posting. It sure is not the CFSU(O) CWO signing off on _their_ paperwork.

You really need to get over your air of self-superiority and pusserness in all areas of regulation and properness; sometimes, your need to be right is just wrong ... as is your belief in how you are the one who knows how everything, and I do mean everything, should operate/occur.


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## LineJumper (22 Apr 2012)

Today must be my day, as I have nothing to contribute to ribbons, just a minor recolection of 'the hook'.

When I was provided my 'hook'(sounds kinda navy) I was jacked on a Force COC practice parade for not having it sewn on.(approx 5 months after the fact) 'It will be there after lunch' I was told. Back to The regimental lines(L103 if memory serves) to do the task (velcro nametags would have saved all kinds of time then, oh yeah, slip-ons on a smock would've been nice as well). For all my lunch break, it was fingers and thumbs'a'fury sewing on 'the hook'. The next practice I was promoted. 

At the beercall, I asked the RSM what would have happened if I didn't sew on the Tpr's rank. "You would be a Cpl on appointment." says he. "I don't understand Sir." "In 2 years, like everyone else in the CF, you would be appointed to the rank of Cpl due to time in. To this day except for pay, which still wasn't good yet at that time, I've not quite understood the difference between a Pte with or without anything. I did learn that a Cpl does throw an assist for the old potato peeling done on KP  >


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## RCR Grunt (22 Apr 2012)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Would many units even notice a no hook private giving himself a hook and wearing it?



My promotion to private with a hook...

Me: CQ, do you have any blank slip on's for my rain jacket?
CQ: How effing long have you been here?!
Me: I dunno CQ, bout a year and a half I guess.
CQ: Here's one with a hook, now get the eff out of my stores!!!

I'm quite certain the RSM had no knowledge of this, nor was the proper pro forma filled and filed.


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## Good2Golf (22 Apr 2012)

Pusser, the only thing similar about the two different situations you have described is that the CO has failed in both cases to ensure that their soldiers, sailors or airmen and airwomen are appropriately acknowledged for their service and/or qualification either through decoration or promotion.

If I were to play your game of "there's a limit to how far we should go to do the right thing," I would look at the young private's initiative and balance that with the missing factor of my recommendation, as ArmyVern pointed out, and have a chat with the SCWO to determine what our best course of action was; likely something like the SCWO having a chat with them to take down the "not yet authorized rank insignia", but noting that the boss appreciates the initiative demonstrated and hope that such initiative can continue in other areas to better the unit as a whole.

The point remains that a Canadian Decoration is something that is supposed to be a demonstration of the organization's appreciation of the individual's cumulative good service to the Nation, and if some ribbon and a few rosettes acquired from clothing stores presented to the member by the CO on or very close to the qualifying date keeps the faith of member recognition, even if not "100% by the book" then I'm okay with being a part of that.

BZ to the folks a bit earlier in the thread who did just that.   

Regards
G2G


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Apr 2012)

Stop right here!

We didn't start talking about promotion to anything.

Let's stick with the OP's original subject, that of the presentation of CD honours.

No more talk of one hook Privates promoting themselves.

Pusser,

Deny, complain, quote regs, do whatever. You have been outnumbered by your peers.

Time to call it a day and give it up. 

Rules and regs have their place. We get to our (and your) station by knowing when and where to accept them, bend them, or ignore them. For the betterment of the troop or organization.

Knowing when to work outside, or bending those rules, how to do it, and keep everyone happy is what we do. Keeping our CO advised and accepting tacit approval is all part of our job.

I would really like to see this end here and now. This is about as polite a request as will be made. 

Be stubborn as you wish, but most of your peers here disagree with your point of view.

And yes, most in disagreement, are your peers.


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## Pusser (23 Apr 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> The GGFG has no RSM?  The CH of O has no RSM?  30 Fd Regt (RCA) has no RSM?  The R de Hull has no RSM?  There are no units of the Canadian Forces in the NCR?
> 
> 
> Wow.  Lots of people I have to tell that they and their positions don't exist.



Most people who belong to units outside of NDHQ, despite being in the Ottawa/Gatineau area, do not refer to themselves as being "in the NCR."  I'll surrender on this point.  I meant NDHQ.  Sorry for the lack of clarity.

On another note, perhaps the following CANFORGEN will settle this:

CANFORGEN 003/09 CMP 002/09 081950Z JAN 09
APPLICATION FOR SERVICE/CAMPAIGN MEDALS
UNCLASSIFIED
REF: A. CANFORGEN 106/00 ADMHRMIL 064 081930Z SEP 00 
B. CANFORGEN 080/02 ADMHRMIL 045 221800Z JUL 02 
C. CDS LETTER APPLICATION FOR AND PRESENTATION OF SERVICE/CAMPAIGN MEDALS DATED 3 DEC 08 
1.	THE PURPOSE OF THIS MSG IS TO ADVISE ALL CF UNITS, AS DIRECTED BY THE CDS AT REF C, THAT EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, SERVICE AND CAMPAIGN MEDALS, AS WELL AS THE CD, ARE NOT TO BE ORDERED UNTIL CANDIDATE HAS FULLY MET THE MEDAL S ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA. THE CO S SIGNATURE ON THE APPLICATION CONFIRMS THE FILE HAS BEEN VERIFIED AND THE CRITERIA IS FULLY MET  
2.	UNITS THAT ORDER ANY MEDALS BEFORE THE MEMBER HAS MET THE ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA WILL SEE THEIR APPLICATIONS REJECTED AND RETURNED TO THE ORIGINATING UNIT 
3.	MEDALS SHALL ALWAYS BE PRESENTED IN DIGNIFIED CIRCUMSTANCES. IN THE CASE OF WOUNDED MEMBERS, THE PRESENTATION SHOULD NOT OCCUR IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE INCIDENT BUT RATHER WHEN THE MEMBER IS SUFFICIENTLY STABLE, BOTH EMOTIONALLY AND PHYSICALLY, TO RECEIVE THE AWARD. THE PROPER TIME WOULD BE AT THE HOME UNIT WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS, OR IN THE CASE OF EXTENDED HOSPITALIZATION, ONCE THE MEMBER S CONDITION HAS STABILIZED 
4.	CF MEMBERS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO WEAR UNDRESS RIBBONS FOR SERVICE OR CAMPAIGN MEDALS AND THE CD UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN PRESENTED WITH THE ACTUAL MEDAL. THE WEARING OF UNDRESS RIBBON AND MINIATURE AS WELL AS THE USE OF POSTNOMINALS IS AUTHORIZED FOR ORDERS AND DECORATIONS (MSM AND ABOVE) FROM THE MOMENT THE RECIPIENT IS OFFICIALLY NOTIFIED 
5.	EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY REF A, PARA H AND I AND REF B ARE CANCELLED. ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA FOR ALL ORDERS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS CAN BE FOUND ON THE DH R DIN WEBSITE HTTP://HR.OTTAWA-HULL.MIL.CA/DHR-DDHR/ 
6.	OPI IS DH R 
7.	SIGNED BY MGEN W SEMIANIW, CMP


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## armyvern (23 Apr 2012)

Right.

So, the CO has authorized it (as per your first yellow); then
The RSM (or CWO depending upon posting location) goes to clothing and picks up a ribbon with the rosettes; and
The CO then issues them to the member (as per your second yellow).

*THE WEARING OF UNDRESS RIBBON AND MINIATURE AS WELL AS THE USE OF POSTNOMINALS IS AUTHORIZED FOR ORDERS AND DECORATIONS (MSM AND ABOVE) FROM THE MOMENT THE RECIPIENT IS OFFICIALLY NOTIFIED    *

For the CD+3, I'm guessing that the DHH tracking system shows it being officially issued in the status (I know it does actually). So, if it's not received in time for presentation, the member is still officially notified via that system that it is indeed issued (note: not the member himself, but the OR who  is tracking on behalf of RSM on behalf of CO). Therefore, notification has been made as has the confirmatiobn that it has been issued by DHH. Issued, yet not yet received.


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## ModlrMike (23 Apr 2012)

Do we really need to pick the fly**** out of the pepper when the question is about recognizing 42 years of service? 75 messages in a thread that could probably have been settled in 3. Sheesh  :facepalm:


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## Occam (23 Apr 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> *THE WEARING OF UNDRESS RIBBON AND MINIATURE AS WELL AS THE USE OF POSTNOMINALS IS AUTHORIZED FOR ORDERS AND DECORATIONS (MSM AND ABOVE) FROM THE MOMENT THE RECIPIENT IS OFFICIALLY NOTIFIED    *



I think the part in red limits the applicability of this statement.


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## Journeyman (23 Apr 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> CANFORGEN 003/09 CMP 002/09 081950Z JAN 09


We'd already agreed on "officious," "pedantic," and the fact that you're never likely to be "_that_ CO," right?

So yes, your butt is covered; in similar circumstances you could wave the CANFORGEN and point to the CFAO saying your hands are tied. Happy?

 :



Thankfully, the original poster is doing _what's right_ for the 42-year veteran, despite the heartache and angst this apparently causes the chair-warmers.


Pusser, feel free to have the last word, coming back with some pithy "oh.....oh _ya_?!"  I'm done.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (23 Apr 2012)

OK folks,....the urinals are overflowing and I don't feel like mopping today.

Lets keep it civil.................or I will.

Bruce
army.ca staff


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## Good2Golf (23 Apr 2012)

Not sure how others might interpret CANFORGEN 003/09, but here is how I would look at the original topic situation using the following portion of the CANFORGEN:



> ...
> 4.   CF MEMBERS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO WEAR UNDRESS RIBBONS FOR SERVICE OR CAMPAIGN MEDALS AND THE CD UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN PRESENTED WITH THE ACTUAL MEDAL. THE WEARING OF UNDRESS RIBBON AND MINIATURE AS WELL AS THE USE OF POSTNOMINALS IS AUTHORIZED FOR ORDERS AND DECORATIONS (MSM AND ABOVE) FROM THE MOMENT THE RECIPIENT IS OFFICIALLY NOTIFIED
> ...



The member in question was already issued his MEDAL thirty years prior...on completion of the twelth year of qualifying service.  

So, I read paragraph 4. and I see no restriction that would keep me from presenting the member with a DEVICE to the medal which he had already been issued in years past.  I signed the paperwork noting the member's qualification, and if DHR has not yet provided me with the formal material, I still present (with the help of my SCWO who tracked down some rosettes, a bar and some ribbon) the member with the devices representing the 42 years of qualifying service that the CANFORGEN in no way restricts me from doing.

IMO, that's how leadership should interpret, and in this case follow to the letter, the policies and directives that were intended to ensure that a member's service is appropriately acknowledged.


Regards
G2G


_edit: correction for grammar _


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## Danjanou (23 Apr 2012)

:goodpost:


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## armyvern (23 Apr 2012)

Occam said:
			
		

> I think the part in red limits the applicability of this statement.



Right; it says that it must be "issued" for the CD, not "received by Home Unit". That was my point. The tracking system can show that it is indeed issued, but not recd. Therefore, picking one up at clothing and presenting it has - technically - complied with his quoted message. 

If the "issued" is by DHH, the system shows it's issue (yet not recd). If it's meaning is "issued" by the CO _*to*_ the member ... --- either way: it's "issued".


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## Pusser (23 Apr 2012)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> We'd already agreed on "officious," "pedantic," and the fact that you're never likely to be "_that_ CO," right?
> 
> So yes, your butt is covered; in similar circumstances you could wave the CANFORGEN and point to the CFAO saying your hands are tied. Happy?
> 
> ...



Please point out where I have ever said that recognizing a veteran's 42 years of service is NOT the right thing to do.  My position all along has been that there is a way to do the right thing AND to do it right (for those who seem to insist that these concepts are mutually exclusive).  I too want to do right by the individual in question, but I also believe that there is still plenty of time to do it properly (i.e. make sure all the administrative aspects are taken care of).  That's ALL I'm saying here.  There is no need for a bandaid/backdoor solution.

On more than one occasion, I have locked horns with my superiors, to the detriment of my career (and I have the PERs to prove it) because it was the right thing to do.  I sleep very comfortably at night knowing that I have always tried to do the right thing irrespective of the personal consequences to me.  No one has the right to state or imply otherwise.


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## OldSolduer (23 Apr 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Honours, Awards and Recognition (HAR) are badly broken in the CF.
> 
> Reflect on the raid on Dieppe: within a month and a half, LCol Merritt's VC for that action was gazetted (raid: 19 August; gazetting: 02 October).  Meanwhile, a CANFORGEN came out this week awarding CDS commendations for work in 2010.
> 
> So, highest honour for valour in the Commonwealth: 45 days.  For CDS recognition: 500+ days.  The modern CF is obscenely bureaucratic, with excess staff churn to little or no result at all levels.




Bravo! Well said!


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## Danjanou (23 Apr 2012)

At the rate we're going in some better go make up another ribbon with enough rosettes on it to pay homage to 52 years service, and tell the poor schmuck he has to stick around that long because the same mouthbreatehrs are also in charge of his release.

Cudos to the Jimmy CWO who started this by noting he's actually gone and had the ribbon made up for presentation before all the "i" s were dotted, thus ensuring the job gets done, and to hell with the consequences. More kudos would have been due if he'd just done that in the first place instead of moaning on the Internet no matter how entertaining this has become.  :


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## Fishbone Jones (23 Apr 2012)

All done on the merry-go-round.

Milnet.ca Staff


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