# Naval Combat Dress (NCD) uniform [Merged]



## Scoobie Newbie

CANFORGEN 130/06 CMS 044/06 161215Z AUG 06
NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) UPDATE
UNCLASSIFIED


REFS: A. CANFORGEN 141/02 ASST CMS 003 041300Z DEC 02 
B. CANFORGEN 109/02 ADMHR-MIL 062 171020Z OCT 02 
C. CANFORGEN 093/01 CMS 074/01 221555Z AUG 01 
D. CANFORGEN 084/01 CMS 006 241119Z JUL 01 
E. CANFORGEN 017/01 CMS 012/01 011416Z FEB 01 
F. CANFORGEN 110/00 CMS 077/00 250910Z SEP 00 
G. CF DRESS INSTRUCTIONS - A-AD-265-000/AG-001 
H. SCALE OF ENTITLEMENT 
I. NAVAL DRESS COMMITTEE MEETINGS - VARIOUS 
J. MARCORD 17-3 - REVISED JUN 06 (NOTAL) 



THE AIM OF THIS CANFORGEN IS TO CONSOLIDATE EARLIER MESSAGES AND REEMPHASIZE A NUMBER OF DRESS ISSUES PERTAINING TO NCD S. IN ADDITION, A NUMBER OF MARGENS PERTAINING TO NAVAL DRESS WITHIN THE CMS ORGANIZATION HAVE BEEN CONSOLIDATED INTO THE JUN 06 REVISION OF MARCORD 17-3. 


CANFORGENS AT REFS A TO F ARE CANCELLED AS CHANGES HAVE BEEN INCORPORATED INTO REFS G AND H, OR UPDATED HEREIN 


CARE AND CLEANING: NCD S SHALL BE CLEANED AND PROPERLY PRESSED/IRONED. MAINTENANCE AND CARE IS CLEARLY STATED ON THE MANUFACTURERS TAGS ATTACHED TO THE GARMENTS 


INSIGNIA: UNTIL REF G CAN BE AMENDED, ON THE NCD JACKET: 


THE NAME TAPE IS TO BE CENTERED ON THE RIGHT BREAST WITH THE BOTTOM OF THE NAME TAPE IN LINE WITH THE BOTTOM BREAST SEAM, 


ONLY CLOTH FLYING/SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES ARE TO BE WORN. THE FIRST BADGE WILL BE CENTERED AND 0.6 CM (1/4 INCH) ABOVE THE LEFT TOP BREAST SEAM, AND THE SECOND BADGE CENTERED AND 0.6 CM (1/4 INCH) BELOW THE LEFT BREAST LOWER SEAM, LEAVING A SPACE OF APPROX 4 CM (1.5 INCH) BETWEEN THE TWO BADGES. THE ORDER OF WEAR IS AT THE MEMBER S DISCRETION, AND 


CHAPLAIN S INSIGNIA. NOTWITHSTANDING CHAP 7 PARA 35 OF REF G, THE CHAPLAIN CLOTH INSIGNIA SHALL BE CENTERED 0.6 CM (1/4 INCH) BELOW THE NAMETAPE ON THE JACKET.


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## CallOfDuty

Grrrr.......I was hoping your post was going to say us navy types are all getting the new Navy CADPAT!!!!!     >


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## Cloud Cover

DueyT said:
			
		

> CARE AND CLEANING: NCD S SHALL BE CLEANED AND PROPERLY PRESSED/IRONED. MAINTENANCE AND CARE IS CLEARLY STATED ON THE MANUFACTURERS TAGS ATTACHED TO THE GARMENTS



Does the army iron its combat dress? LOL.


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## IN HOC SIGNO

DueyT said:
			
		

> CANFORGEN 130/06 CMS 044/06 161215Z AUG 06
> NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) UPDATE
> UNCLASSIFIED
> 
> 
> REFS: A. CANFORGEN 141/02 ASST CMS 003 041300Z DEC 02
> B. CANFORGEN 109/02 ADMHR-MIL 062 171020Z OCT 02
> C. CANFORGEN 093/01 CMS 074/01 221555Z AUG 01
> D. CANFORGEN 084/01 CMS 006 241119Z JUL 01
> E. CANFORGEN 017/01 CMS 012/01 011416Z FEB 01
> F. CANFORGEN 110/00 CMS 077/00 250910Z SEP 00
> G. CF DRESS INSTRUCTIONS - A-AD-265-000/AG-001
> H. SCALE OF ENTITLEMENT
> I. NAVAL DRESS COMMITTEE MEETINGS - VARIOUS
> J. MARCORD 17-3 - REVISED JUN 06 (NOTAL)
> 
> 
> 
> THE AIM OF THIS CANFORGEN IS TO CONSOLIDATE EARLIER MESSAGES AND REEMPHASIZE A NUMBER OF DRESS ISSUES PERTAINING TO NCD S. IN ADDITION, A NUMBER OF MARGENS PERTAINING TO NAVAL DRESS WITHIN THE CMS ORGANIZATION HAVE BEEN CONSOLIDATED INTO THE JUN 06 REVISION OF MARCORD 17-3.
> 
> 
> CANFORGENS AT REFS A TO F ARE CANCELLED AS CHANGES HAVE BEEN INCORPORATED INTO REFS G AND H, OR UPDATED HEREIN
> 
> 
> CARE AND CLEANING: NCD S SHALL BE CLEANED AND PROPERLY PRESSED/IRONED. MAINTENANCE AND CARE IS CLEARLY STATED ON THE MANUFACTURERS TAGS ATTACHED TO THE GARMENTS
> 
> 
> INSIGNIA: UNTIL REF G CAN BE AMENDED, ON THE NCD JACKET:
> 
> 
> THE NAME TAPE IS TO BE CENTERED ON THE RIGHT BREAST WITH THE BOTTOM OF THE NAME TAPE IN LINE WITH THE BOTTOM BREAST SEAM,
> 
> 
> ONLY CLOTH FLYING/SPECIALIST SKILL BADGES ARE TO BE WORN. THE FIRST BADGE WILL BE CENTERED AND 0.6 CM (1/4 INCH) ABOVE THE LEFT TOP BREAST SEAM, AND THE SECOND BADGE CENTERED AND 0.6 CM (1/4 INCH) BELOW THE LEFT BREAST LOWER SEAM, LEAVING A SPACE OF APPROX 4 CM (1.5 INCH) BETWEEN THE TWO BADGES. THE ORDER OF WEAR IS AT THE MEMBER S DISCRETION, AND
> 
> 
> CHAPLAIN S INSIGNIA. NOTWITHSTANDING CHAP 7 PARA 35 OF REF G, THE CHAPLAIN CLOTH INSIGNIA SHALL BE CENTERED 0.6 CM (1/4 INCH) BELOW THE NAMETAPE ON THE JACKET.



I just don't get why every other order of dress has my cross above the nametape yet this one has it below. I think this is bad theology....ha ha.....exalting the person over the Diety...it's just not right!! 

Whiskey you are a crap disturber!!  ;D Don't even get me going on CADPAT for sailors!! :rage:

Anyway I'm on leave what am doing obsessing about this stuff :


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## Missile Man

Does this mean the new NBP badge goes in the same place Ship's divers wear theirs?  I recall when the badge first came out it was sewn on in a weird spot, really low on the left side.


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## IN HOC SIGNO

Missile Man said:
			
		

> Does this mean the new NBP badge goes in the same place Ship's divers wear theirs?  I recall when the badge first came out it was sewn on in a weird spot, really low on the left side.



I saw a guy wearing one in the CSOR the other day and it was realy low down on the left hand side...looked kinda odd.

Aplogies Whiskey...its' Call of Duty who is the crap disturber...CADPAT for sailors indeed!!


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## CallOfDuty

I'm sorry padre...I can't help myself......I'm in the Navy and I like the CADPAT!  I'm so ashamed,lol...


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## IN HOC SIGNO

CallOfDuty said:
			
		

> I'm sorry padre...I can't help myself......I'm in the Navy and I like the CADPAT!  I'm so ashamed,lol...



lol...I'm just joshing you. Don't you think that CADPAT would look a tad out of place on a ship? And a lot out of place when you stand beside sailors of other countries as we do when we go on NATO deployments etc?
Oh well...it's probably that St Jean brainwashing that gets sailors to like "green stuff"...ha ha :


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## jollyjacktar

CallofDuty you are not alone in wanting CADPATs.  There are several others here on my ship who have lost all reason too.... >


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## Sub_Guy

Fools..... CADPAT will never be worn on ship, only if we are giving tours to zoomies or grunts!

Baseside CADPAT yes!

Sea going NO

If you are in the Navy and think otherwise you should think twice before taking those pills from the unmarked bottle............


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## CallOfDuty

Sounds good Sub_Guy!  Any idea when we can expect this?
 I forget who said it in the other Navy cadpat thread, but basically I agree with the idea that NCD's look horrible as a walking in dress and almost always look sloppy. 
  Cheers
Steve


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## Franko

Hmmm...CADPAT on ship.

That's a novel idea. Can't see you at all....except the honkin' ship that carries you around is a dead giveaway     ;D

Regards


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## CallOfDuty

.........not for the ship..........for baseside.


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## navymich

This was supposed to be an update on NCD's (thank you btw Quaqmire, for posting that information), not a continuation of the  CADPAT thread .  Not even sure if some of you can agree to disagree or not, because obviously this "discussion" will continue on for what seems like forever.  Everyone has their opinion FINE, and here's mine: *enough already hashing it out over and over again*!


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## Springroll

Not going to start a new thread, but I am loking for a reference to the colour of tshirt permitted to be worn with NCD's. 
I am aware we can wear the white one, but the storeman I saw yesterday was wearing a black tshirt and when i asked him about it, he said that there was a canforgen out saying we can. 

I found it and by the way it reads to me, it is only permitted when wearing cadpat.

Is this correct or not??


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## PO2FinClk

From what understand, correct!

I believe it was a MARGEN which authorized the wear of the white T-Shirt in NCD's. A CANFORGEN last year authorized the wear of black T-Shirt's in CADPAT.

Edit to add:
MARGEN 033/04 Para 1.E. - White T-Shirt
CANFORGEN 027/07 Para 2.C. - Black T-Shirt


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## RickDevlieger

For those personnel in MARPAC (West Coast), MARPACGEN 005/08 DRESS INSTRUCTION UPDATE is very clear. Para 13 reads a follows:


13. ORDERS OF DRESS:
A. NAVAL COMBAT DRESS:
(1) NAVY - WHITE TEE SHIRTS ONLY MAY BE VISIBLE AT THE NECK UNTIL
BLACK ONES BECOME AVAILABLE THROUGH LOGISTIK
AIR - BLUE TEE SHIRTS ONLY MAY BE VISIBLE AT THE NECK
ARMY - GREEN TEE SHIRTS ONLY MAY BE VISIBLE AT THE NECK
(2) NCD JACKET CUFFS SHALL BE SECURED AT THE WRIST
(3) NCD SHIRT COLLARS ARE TO BE WORN INSIDE THE NCD JACKET
(4) SAFETY KNIVES MAY BE ATTACHED TO BELT OF NCD HOWEVER, THEY ARE
NOT AUTH AS WALKING OUT DRESS
(5) NCDS SHALL BE CLEAN AND IRONED
(6) NAME TAPES - ALL PERSONNEL WHO WEAR THE NAVAL COMBAT DRESS
REGARDLESS OF THEIR ELEMENT SHALL WEAR THE BLACK CLOTH NAME TAPE
(7) RANK INSIGNIA SLIP-ONS - PERSONNEL SHALL WEAR THEIR OWN ELEMENTS
RANK INSIGNIA SLIP-ONS
(8) SHIP/UNIT CRESTS SHALL BE WORN ON THE NCD JACKET
(9) NAVAL BOARDING PARTY BADGE.  WEAR OF THE BADGE IS AUTHORIZED FOR
QUALIFIED MEMBERS OF THE SHIP S BOARDING PARTY, ONLY WHILE SERVING
AS MEMBERS OF THE BOARDING PARTY, AND ONLY ON THE NCD JACKET.  IT
SHALL BE WORN IN THE LOCATION FOR A SECOND FLYING/SPECIALIST BADGE,
WHICH IS CENTERED AND 0.6 CM (1/4 INCH) BELOW THE LEFT BREAST LOWER
SEAM. IT IS ALSO AUTHORIZED FOR QUALIFIED BOARDING PARTY
INSTRUCTORS WHILE PERFORMING BOARDING PARTY INSTRUCTOR DUTIES
BOARDING PARTY INSTRUCTORS WILL WEAR THE BADGE ON THE BOARDING PARTY
COVERALL ONLY, AND IT SHALL BE PLACED ON THE LEFT SIDE CENTERED
ABOVE THE BREAST POCKET 0.6 CM (1/4 INCH) ABOVE THE NAVAL BOARDING
PARTY INSTRUCTOR INDICATOR TAPE
B. CADPAT:
1. APPROVED NAVY IDENTIFIERS FOR ALL NAVY DEU PERSONNEL WHO ARE
REQUIRED TO WEAR CADPAT/LWCC ARE AS FOLLOWS:
A. DISTINCTIVE RANK INDICATORS (SLIP-ONS). BLACK THREAD ON CANADIAN
AVERAGE GREEN (CAG) BACKGROUND, DISTINCTIVE NAMETAPE. BLACK THREAD
ON CAG BACKGROUND AND THE NAVY INSIGNIA (ANCHOR) WORN ON THE LEFT OF
THE NAMETAPE, AND BLACK TEE SHIRT. THESE IDENTIFIERS WILL COMPLEMENT
THE CURRENT NAVY BLACK BERET APPROVED FOR WEAR WITH CAPDAT/LWCC
1. DISTINCT NAVY IDENTIFIERS ARE APPROVED FOR WEAR WITH CADPAT/LWCC
IN CANADA DEPENDENT ON THE OPERATIONAL CONTEXT OF THE UNIT - IE. IN
NON-TACTICAL SITUATIONS AS DEEMED BY THE OPERATIONAL COMMANDER.
AUTHORIZATION ON OVERSEAS OPERATIONS WILL BE AT THE DISCRETION OF
THE THEATRE COMMANDER BASED ON THE OPERATIONAL SITUATION
2. NAVY IDENTIFIERS ARE ONLY AUTHORIZED FOR WEAR WITH THE TEMPERATE
WOODLAND (TW) CADPAT/LWCC AND SHALL NOT BE WORN WITH OTHER CADPAT
DESIGNS (I.E. ARID)
3. THE ACQUISITION OF DISTINCTIVE RANKS, DISTINCTIVE NAMETAPE, AND
THE BLACK TEE SHIRT IS IN PROGRESS AND WILL EVENTUALLY BE MADE
AVAILABLE TO AUTHORIZED PERSONNEL THROUGH EXISTING CLOTHING
DISTRIBUTION OUTLETS. THE QTY OF NAMETAPES, RANK SLIP-ONS AND TEE
SHIRTS TO BE ALLOTTED FOR WEAR WITH CADPAT/LWCC WILL ALSO BE
PROMULGATED IN DUE COURSE
4. IN THE INTERIM, AS AN OPTIONAL MEASURE, NAVY PERSONNEL WHO SO
WISH, ARE AUTHORIZED TO ACQUIRE AND WEAR, AT NO COST TO THE CROWN, A
CREW NECK TEE SHIRT WITHOUT LOGOS, JET BLACK IN COLOUR, 75 PERCENT
COTTON (PLUS/MINUS 5 PERCENT) / 25 PERCENT POLYESTER (PLUS/MINUS 5
PERCENT)


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## Sub_Guy

So when the black one becomes available the white one will have to go?   Sounds like fun!   I imagine it is going to get pretty hot working down south or in the Gulf wearing the black t-shirt under the NCD shirt.


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## jollyjacktar

I don't agree totally with you on that one DH.  It's already hot down south anyhow, a bit of black showing won't make too my difference overall I think.  I am happy to see white going out the door, it is a bloody stupid colour to have on a ship especially the Tanker.  Hard to keep looking respectible shiny white, black is a better colour to go with.


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## Springroll

Chief Tech said:
			
		

> For those personnel in MARPAC (West Coast), MARPACGEN 005/08 DRESS INSTRUCTION UPDATE is very clear. Para 13 reads a follows:
> 
> 
> 13. ORDERS OF DRESS:
> A. NAVAL COMBAT DRESS:
> (1) NAVY - WHITE TEE SHIRTS ONLY MAY BE VISIBLE AT THE NECK UNTIL
> BLACK ONES BECOME AVAILABLE THROUGH LOGISTIK



This was exactly what I read, but what didn't make sense is that the white one's are not even available on Logistik, why would we have to wait until the black one's are available? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the same "no logo's etc" rules apply to the black ones as they do for the white ones?


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## Sub_Guy

Springroll said:
			
		

> This was exactly what I read, but what didn't make sense is that the white one's are not even available on Logistik, why would we have to wait until the black one's are available? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the same "no logo's etc" rules apply to the black ones as they do for the white ones?



Interesting I know the AF issued me with blue t-shirts and spiffy under-roos, but they are not on Logistik.  If you want the black t-shirt you probably could go buy them from Canex, or see if supply is handing them out.


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## PO2FinClk

Wonder how long it will be nefore a MARGEN/CANFORGEN to this effect is released as now you will have 2 different standards of dress for NCD's.


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## medaid

I wish they'd just get rid of the damn NCDs... 

But that's just me.  ;D


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## Radar114

New here.

Question while dragging this up from the depths...anyone know where to find out any info about the N.I.C.E. project?  Stupid name I know.  I have seen the rain suit (jacket) and that's about it.  I have heard about the new NCDs with perma-crease cause ya know we have to have creases.  

Army has an entire website on "Cloth the Soldier", sailors can't find anything on our new uniforms.  But yesterday I did find in a dress committee minutes that they did vote themselves new cardigans to wear around the office but stomped the old zippered boots right out of existence again.


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## aesop081

Radar114 said:
			
		

> New here.
> 
> Army has an entire website on "Cloth the Soldier", sailors can't find anything on our new uniforms



There is indeed a N.I.C.E. website on the DIN.........so the information is there. I even posted pictures of the boots on this site at one point. Sounds like sailors cant look for information haha.


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## Radar114

More than likely that our DIN site sucks and really nothing interesting there.  The army / air force sites seem to be updated more on a regular basis.


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## Sub_Guy

The Navy has a hate on for zipper boots...

There is a DIN site for the N.I.C.E project, I was just looking at the other day, I was thanking my lucky stars that I will never have to wear that great looking hat.  I think Aviator is on to something regarding sailors searching for information.


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## armyvern

Radar114 said:
			
		

> New here.
> 
> Question while dragging this up from the depths...anyone know where to find out any info about the N.I.C.E. project?  Stupid name I know.  I have seen the rain suit (jacket) and that's about it.  I have heard about the new NCDs with perma-crease cause ya know we have to have creases.
> 
> Army has an entire website on "Cloth the Soldier", sailors can't find anything on our new uniforms.  But yesterday I did find in a dress committee minutes that they did vote themselves new cardigans to wear around the office but stomped the old zippered boots right out of existence again.



Another thread on the N.I.C.E project already (that this thread should probably just be merged with) ...

http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/79706.0

N.I.C.E. Intranet site


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## Snakedoc

I just read the other thread... unisex underwear  

Just to be clear with the MARGEN, if a t-shirt is worn then it must be a black t-shirt, but a t-shirt is still not necessarily necessary, correct?


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## Ex-Dragoon

With NCDs wearing the T shirt is optional.


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## George Wallace

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> I just read the other thread... unisex underwear
> 
> Just to be clear with the MARGEN, if a t-shirt is worn then it must be a black t-shirt, but a t-shirt is still not necessarily necessary, correct?



So?  When you have to take off your shirt when you are doing some 'heavy' work, and you are not close to your room and dresser drawer, what are you going to wear?


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## Ex-Dragoon

Depending on the ship, you may not be allowed to go down to a t shirt....


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## Radar114

T-shirts are optional since they aren't issued yet other than to boarding team and if a sailor is doing heavy work, the NCD shirt stays on.  The jacket comes off but that is usually it.


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## Snakedoc

Yes I'm aware going down to t-shirt only is not permitted...at least I've never seen it authorized on any ship I've been on and it's technically not an order of dress.  I just wanted to make sure t-shirts under NCD shirts were still considered optional as the MARGEN was not too clear.  Thanks!


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## Radar114

I see it as being optional.  I have never seen anything on we have to wear a tshirt.  I have yet to be issued one other than the speed greys from Cornwallis.


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## PingTech

IMHO, if you're a sailor in a purple trade (cook/medic/clerk/etc) posted to a land or air unit, wear cadpat.  If you're a hard sea trade, wear those comfy hull tech pj's at sea and a pusser set of NCD's alongside.  Sailors should look like sailors..not like a condiment. ;D


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## Radar114

Agree on the coveralls and zippered boots but of course ya can't have zippers, it takes away from the money allocated for cardigan sweaters.


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## gwp

PingTech said:
			
		

> IMHO, if you're a sailor in a purple trade (cook/medic/clerk/etc) posted to a land or air unit, wear cadpat.  If you're a hard sea trade, wear those comfy hull tech pj's at sea and a pusser set of NCD's alongside.  Sailors should look like sailors..not like a condiment. ;D


Your right, but you don't take it far enough.  The Navy's point of view is "Sailors don't wear CADPAT" unless they are working in the field.  Sailors posted to land or air units in office, classroom training environments etc. dress as sailors.


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## Nfld Sapper

gwp said:
			
		

> Your right, but you don't take it far enough.  The Navy's point of view is "Sailors don't wear CADPAT" unless they are working in the field.  Sailors posted to land or air units in office, classroom training environments etc. dress as sailors.



Negative they wear the dress of the day of the unit they are posted to.

My unit has a PO as a CC and she wears our dress of the day, CADPAT.


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## Snakedoc

Though I seem to remember hearing about a directive somewhere that Navy pers working on Army bases shall wear CADPAT (can someone clarify?), just going strictly on the NFLD Sappers comment that navy pers wear the dress of the day of the unit, isn't dress of the day promulgated by order of dress?

Ie. If dress of the day is No.5's, for army pers this would be CADPAT whereas the Navy equivalent would be NCD's?


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## Radar114

gwp said:
			
		

> Your right, but you don't take it far enough.  The Navy's point of view is "Sailors don't wear CADPAT" unless they are working in the field.  Sailors posted to land or air units in office, classroom training environments etc. dress as sailors.



Not necessarily only in the field.  If the unit is to wear CADPAT as dress of the day then the sailors will wear CADPAT with the element color nametag and slipons.  Sailors who are ashore in Halifax and Esquimalt at Navy shore positions continue to wear Naval dress.


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## FSTO

Radar114 said:
			
		

> Not necessarily only in the field.  If the unit is to wear CADPAT as dress of the day then the sailors will wear CADPAT with the element color nametag and slipons.  Sailors who are ashore in Halifax and Esquimalt at Navy shore positions continue to wear Naval dress.



Purple trades wear the dress of the day of the element they are working for. Hard Sea trades will only wear Cadpat if they are sent on an operation such as A-stan (like the clearance divers)


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## Radar114

Personal experience here and I still have the leftovers from my posting as a hard sea trade to a inland posting.  CADPAT as dress of the day.


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## Sub_Guy

Does that mean that Army/AF types have to wear NCD's while working in Halifax/Esquimalt?

Obviously they don't.


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## gwp

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Though I seem to remember hearing about a directive somewhere that Navy pers working on Army bases shall wear CADPAT (can someone clarify?), just going strictly on the NFLD Sappers comment that navy pers wear the dress of the day of the unit, isn't dress of the day promulgated by order of dress?
> 
> Ie. If dress of the day is No.5's, for army pers this would be CADPAT whereas the Navy equivalent would be NCD's?


Exactly.  There is no authority to issue Maritime Command Personnel Reg or Res with CADPAT except if there is an operational requirement.  I.E. crawling in the mud.

If you doubt this.  Take it up with the Command or the Formation CPOs.  The response will be "Sailors don't wear CADPAT"

The following two pieces of the discussion may be useful. 



> Subject: ISSUE OF CADPAT TO NAVAL PERSONNEL
> Sir:
> The Navy does not want their personnel wearing CADPAT, just for the sake of wearing it. Obviously, if a Navy member is deployed, or employed in field work, where they are down in the dirt, crawling around on their bellies, or requires the camouflage elements of the kit, then it's required. For instruction duty in the field, on the range, etc, it is not required...
> 
> CPO1
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Good afternoon:
> 
> A short time back, the issue of the wearing of CADPAT as a field dress for sailors (PLQ/BRT/BOTC staff) and which sailors have the authority to wear CADPAT, when, where and under which circumstances.
> The excuse of uniformity in dress [everyone being in CADPAT], the soldier first training concept etc, I see as nothing more than *an ill-conceived attempt for one to disguise the fact that the person wishes to appear different than those around them (the other sailors) or the person blatantly does not wish to take the time and effort to maintain their DEU (Naval uniform).*The type of uniform a person wears does not assist or detract from the training task at hand. More importantly having staff members in different DEU would clearly demonstrates to our newly recruited candidates that personnel in all three elements are capable, willing and able to execute the same duties, responsibilities and training, thereby enforcing a sense of unity, equality, commonality and unified capability of all members of the CF regardless of element affiliation.
> 
> I see absolutely no reason for sailors to be in CADPAT when in garrison. To that end NOTC VENTURE has established the fol policy.
> 
> 203: DRESS AND DEPORTMENT
> References: A. A-AD-265 CF Dress Instructions
> B. VENTURE Standing Orders
> 
> The VENTURE dress of the day is designated as:
> a. Petty Officer Second Class / Sergeant and above shall wear the DEU order  of dress; and
> b. Master Seaman / Master Corporal and below shall wear Operational dress (NCD/CADPAT in the field), with the personal choice to wear DEU;
> The only exceptions to this directive are:
> · at sea and when working or training on board HMC Ships or Submarines;
> · during weapons instructional training, seamanship and DC/FF training periods;
> · when attending training in NABS;
> · during operational and field exercises; and
> · when required to work on equipment, in storerooms, or in an unclean environment.
> 
> All ceremonial events, including Colours and Sun Set shall be conducted in the DEU order of dress.


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## Radar114

So, then what about the 3 years I wore CADPAT in ON?  I wasn't crawling in the mud everyday.  How about the guys working at CEFCOM?  The old CFJHQ in Kingston?

The directive in the ref is aimed at pers in Esquimalt / Halifax, not at sailors working in other establishments.  Also the directive is from NOTC VENTURE and could be applied for MARCOM pers while employed in MARCOM units.


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## Sailorwest

Personally, I've never quite figured out why the Army and now the Air Force type seem fixated on wearing the most expensive clothing issued by the CF to wear around an office and push paper around. You spend $$$$ on coming up with a sophisticated camoflauge pattern and special cloth and then choose to wear it every day in an office environment so it can fade and have to become unservicable sooner than it should be. 
Regardless, it is up to the employing unit how it wants its staff to be dressed. Navy pers attached to an Army unit will typically be issued CADPAT and will be compelled to wear it as dress of the day. Army pers attached to a shore based Navy unit will almost never be issued with NCD's and would follow the order of dress determined by that unit. Although I'm not sure about the air Det in a FFH, who I assume wear their own specialized dress (flight gear), any non-Navy types posted in a ship would be issued NCD and follow the order of dress for the ship. Navy guys posted to a Navy shore based unit should be only wearing CADPAT if they are in fact going to be doing field related work. At least in my opinion.


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## gwp

Radar114 said:
			
		

> So, then what about the 3 years I wore CADPAT in ON?  I wasn't crawling in the mud everyday.  How about the guys working at CEFCOM?  The old CFJHQ in Kingston?



And that is one aspect of why the Navy has an image problem in inland Canada.  If no one dresses as a sailor there are no sailors and then there is no Navy as far as Canadians are concerned.


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## Sailorwest

gwp said:
			
		

> And that is one aspect of why the Navy has an image problem in inland Canada.  If no one dresses as a sailor there are no sailors and then there is no Navy as far as Canadians are concerned.


You are maybe overlooking the presence of NRD's throughout the major inland cities. None of the sailors at those units should be wearing CADPAT and are supposed to be the Naval presence in the inland cities. Granted, they are typically only working one or two evenings a week but that image problem in inland areas is the reason why there are NRD's in places like Saskatoon and Calgary.


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## CountDC

IMO Navy should only wear cadpat if they are going into the field. Just because you are posted to Gagetown, Kingston, Petawawa, etc does not mean you need or should wear them.  Why should I wear cadpat to go into an office the same as I do now?


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## PMedMoe

Let's just go back to tri-service work dress.  That will solve all the "confusion"..... :


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## CountDC

That was a bad move the first time around.  How about a fourth uniform for purple trades - anyone up for wearing a purple tunic?   ;D


----------



## M Feetham

I think the best answer to this question was that each base and unit will decide what it's personnel will wear depending on situation. When I was teaching in ST Jean I wore Cbts for the entire course until the troops returned theirs and then I wore environmental specific dress, IE... NCD's or DEU's. Personnaly if I'm working ashore, even on an army base I should be wearing my salt and peppers, and only changing to cbt's if I go in the field.
Feet


----------



## NavyShooter

As a member of a shooting team, I can speak on sailors in CADPAT a bit.

I was the last person to wear OD at CFSAC two years ago.  I got jacked up by MGen Beares, (sp?) over it.

Here in Halifax, we received permission to trade our OD's in for CADPAT about 2 years ago.  (for the shooting team)

I get some interesting looks when I change at the end of the day before I head to the range and walk out of the office in CADPAT.

That said, my regular dress of the day is a white short sleeve shirt, and black pants.

NS


----------



## Loachman

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> Personally, I've never quite figured out why the Army and now the Air Force type seem fixated on wearing the most expensive clothing issued by the CF to wear around an office and push paper around.



Because it reduced the number of different uniforms bulking out personal closets and supply facilities. Units also looked like units again instead of three-ring circuses.

Of course, somebody had to go and ruin that with different coloured T-shirts and unreadable nametags and rank insignia.

There is more expensive clothing than combat, too. And the combat uniform could be produced far more cheaply with some common-sense simplifications.


----------



## Lil_T

Loachman said:
			
		

> Because it reduced the number of different uniforms bulking out personal closets and supply facilities. Units also looked like units again instead of three-ring circuses.
> 
> Of course, somebody had to go and ruin that with different coloured T-shirts and unreadable nametags and rank insignia.
> 
> There is more expensive clothing than combat, too. And the combat uniform could be produced *far more cheaply with some common-sense simplifications*.



Like colourfastness perhaps?  I'm sure there would be a decent coin saved if uniforms didn't need to be replaced as often due to fading.  How can the CADPAT be considered effective if it's grey?
Also, nothing looks more stupid than a new CADPAT shirt and busted, washed out CADPAT pants.  Saw that way too much working at Scotia Square when we were in Halifax.


----------



## Loachman

Lil_T said:
			
		

> Like colourfastness perhaps?  I'm sure there would be a decent coin saved if uniforms didn't need to be replaced as often due to fading.  How can the CADPAT be considered effective if it's grey?
> Also, nothing looks more stupid than a new CADPAT shirt and busted, washed out CADPAT pants.  Saw that way too much working at Scotia Square when we were in Halifax.



The old combat faded. Everything fades. It happens quicker on the uniforms worn outside more, though - more sun and more washings. Office workers can expect the dyes to last longer.

I was referring to the over-complication of the design. Every seam costs money, and there are far too many of them. Pockets within pockets, complicated pockets, interior pockets that nobody uses, tabs for flags, and if we absolutely have to wear our rank insignia a foot and a half above our genitalia rather than the shoulders were it belongs, just stick it on a velcro patch instead of another unnecessary tab.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Loachman said:
			
		

> The old combat faded. Everything fades. It happens quicker on the uniforms worn outside more, though - more sun and more washings. Office workers can expect the dyes to last longer.



And don't forget the OG107's also turned into "combat lingerie" over time.


----------



## Lil_T

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> And don't forget the OG107's also turned into* "combat lingerie" * over time.



sexy.  

I'll agree about the multitude of pockets/ seams/ superfluous stitching etc.  I'll never understand the pocket-within-a-pocket thing.  I mean, if you're going to do that, why not go whole hog and give the pants a jogging pant hem instead of using boot bands while keeping the mudflap portion.  What's one more little bit of sewing - right?


----------



## medaid

Loachman said:
			
		

> The old combat faded. Everything fades. It happens quicker on the uniforms worn outside more, though - more sun and more washings. Office workers can expect the dyes to last longer.
> 
> I was referring to the over-complication of the design. Every seam costs money, and there are far too many of them. Pockets within pockets, complicated pockets, interior pockets that nobody uses, tabs for flags, and if we absolutely have to wear our rank insignia a foot and a half above our genitalia rather than the shoulders were it belongs, just stick it on a velcro patch instead of another unnecessary tab.



Agreed. It would see our current CADPAT uniforms mimic the design of US ACU pattern shirts. Forgoing the lower pockets which aren't accessible with body armour on, and no to mention the useless bulging chest pockets that once again, aren't accessible with armour on. Move pockets to arms with large velcro panels sewn on the outside. 

It's not Americanized... its practicalized...


----------



## CorporalMajor

CountDC said:
			
		

> That was a bad move the first time around.  How about a fourth uniform for purple trades - anyone up for wearing a purple tunic?   ;D









It would also mean, purple berets, purple linings on tags, purple undershirts. 

Hmmm.


----------



## gwp

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> You are maybe overlooking the presence of NRD's throughout the major inland cities. None of the sailors at those units should be wearing CADPAT and are supposed to be the Naval presence in the inland cities. Granted, they are typically only working one or two evenings a week but that image problem in inland areas is the reason why there are NRD's in places like Saskatoon and Calgary.


Not overlooking it at all.  Every sailor has a stake in the public presence of the Canadian Navy everywhere in Canada.  The Command and Formation Cheifs can't be everywhere to jack people up.  Every sailor needs to take a stand ... that unless you are crawling in the mud ... "sailors don't wear cadpat"



> The Navy does not want their personnel wearing CADPAT, just for the sake of wearing it. Obviously, if a Navy member is deployed, or employed in field work, where they are down in the dirt, crawling around on their bellies, or requires the camouflage elements of the kit, then it's required. For instruction duty in the field, on the range, etc, it is not required...


----------



## Radar114

I'm glad that the NCDs don't turn green or purple anymore when they fade out.


----------



## tabernac

Now with RMC getting a new Commandant in September, who just happens to be of the Naval variety, I wonder if that means all NCdts will no longer be forced to wear CADPAT.


----------



## Monsoon

Loachman said:
			
		

> I was referring to the over-complication of the design. Every seam costs money, and there are far too many of them. Pockets within pockets, complicated pockets, interior pockets that nobody uses, tabs for flags


They all have reasons for being there - and those reasons are founded in the fundamental purpose of CADPAT being an order of dress for people working in field environments. Rather than customizing CADPAT so that it can be cheaply issued to people working offices (at the expense of the pockets 'n stuff that the combat arms guys need), why don't we just wear office clothing in offices? It's not like the CF stopped issuing DEUs when they came up with CADPAT.

I'm sure the Sergeants-Major out there can repress the bile that rises to their throats at the sight of someone wearing Air Force or Navy DEUs.


----------



## Loachman

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> They all have reasons for being there - and those reasons are founded in the fundamental purpose of CADPAT being an order of dress for people working in field environments. Rather than customizing CADPAT so that it can be cheaply issued to people working offices (at the expense of the pockets 'n stuff that the combat arms guys need), why don't we just wear office clothing in offices? It's not like the CF stopped issuing DEUs when they came up with CADPAT.



No, they don't all have reasons for being there - certainly not logical ones, anyway.

Most of what I am talking about is irrelevant to the utility of the uniform as combat dress. Combat Arms guys do not need the current pockets  on the chest or the interior breast or lower interior pockets, and nobody needs the flag tab.

Look at the US Army ACU or Marine uniforms to see a much more practical design.

The breast pockets on combat clothing are vestiges from the olive green version, and they existed to carry twenty-round FN magazines (a stupid idea to begin with. The box design is complicated and expensive to produce. It is useless for those wearing body armour and tac vests. The buttons are uncomfortable when wearing body armour. The interior pocket is also inaccessible when wearing body armour and tac vests, and stitching a pocket on either side of a single piece of fabric is especially complex and expensive. The US pockets are flat and close with velcro. While some advocate that the lower pockets on our combat clothing be done away with as the Americans have done, due to the body armour/tac vest issue, I find them useful but again, the design could be simplified and the interior pockets dispensed with. Nobody here has them in their AR CADPAT, as they've been removed and sewn onto the sleeves, something that should be standardized.

The flag tab contributes nothing to the combat utility either. Velcro patches are stitched to the sleeve pockets on the AR combat clothing, and various patches are attached to them. The US ACU uses this. Dispense with the tab, move the sleeve pockets a little higher than they are (mine interfere with bending my arm if I have anything in them) and put the flag on velcro stitched to the pocket flap.

Again, if we are going to wear rank insignia in the centre of the visible mass, just stick a square patch onto velcro as per the name tape. It's simpler and cheaper to produce than slip-ons and buttoned tabs, and there's no button to be pushed into one's sternum.

See MedTech's post above as well.

I would never push for a CADPAT version of Garrison Dress as you seem to think that I am. I am suggesting, however, a more practical field uniform that reflects the reality of our current and likely future combat operations, that would also end up costing less to produce.


----------



## CountDC

CorporalMajor said:
			
		

> It would also mean, purple berets, purple linings on tags, purple undershirts.
> 
> Hmmm.



Then we can have  a vote for our HCol - Prince or Donnie Osmond - king of the purple socks.


----------



## PMedMoe

CountDC said:
			
		

> Then we can have  a vote for our HCol - Prince or Donnie Osmond - king of the purple socks.



And, of course, there's always......






Try and lose that dinosaur nickname now!  ;D


----------



## Messmom

Well, the pics are finally up at the NICE site and they don't look too bad.

BUT!!!

There is always a but, the name tapes have got to go. Navy/Marine sewn into the tape? I have no interest in answering the question I will be asked most. Wether I am in the Navy or the Marines. And you KNOW that is what most civies are going to think.

Last name with a fouled anchor either side of it. Loose the Navy/Marine.


----------



## Snakedoc

There are some pictures up on this thread (I believe pg6):

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/79706.90.html

I've personally become a fan of the 'camou' style that both the US and Royal Australian Navy's are moving towards (pictures of both also in the thread link).


----------



## Messmom

Camo? For what purpose? What do we have to blend into? Ship side grey? Mess deck red?

Camo on sailors makes absolutely zero sense. About as much sense as the Air Force wearing it.


----------



## Sailorwest

Messmom said:
			
		

> Camo? For what purpose? What do we have to blend into? Ship side grey? Mess deck red?
> 
> Camo on sailors makes absolutely zero sense. About as much sense as the Air Force wearing it.


I agree. no value at all in having another set of uniform with a pointless camoflague pattern just to avoid having to wear NCD's in non-sea going roles. I thought the point was to minimize the number of orders of dress that need to be maintained.


----------



## Sailorwest

Messmom said:
			
		

> Well, the pics are finally up at the NICE site and they don't look too bad.
> 
> BUT!!!
> 
> There is always a but, the name tapes have got to go. Navy/Marine sewn into the tape? I have no interest in answering the question I will be asked most. Wether I am in the Navy or the Marines. And you KNOW that is what most civies are going to think.
> 
> Last name with a fouled anchor either side of it. Loose the Navy/Marine.


I agree. Who came up with that idea and to what end? Is the answer to developing a better naval identity in this country to put our organization's name on our jackets? Should we also do that on our DEU as I have had numerous questions about what organization I belong to while wearing that kit. Will our Air Force and Army comrades have to have the same added to their name tapes?


----------



## aesop081

Messmom said:
			
		

> About as much sense as the Air Force wearing it.



Yeah because the AF doesnt have to fly things over land or fix helicopters in the field eh ?

How about aircrews having to abandon their aircraft over hostile territory ? They would do just fine in bright blue uniforms wouldn't they ?


----------



## Sailorwest

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yeah because the AF doesnt have to fly things over land or fix helicopters in the field eh ?
> 
> How about aircrews having to abandon their aircraft over hostile territory ? They would do just fine in bright blue uniforms wouldn't they ?


Well, what uniform would you be wearing when you're flying over water or have to fix helicopters on a ship?


----------



## Sub_Guy

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> Will our Air Force and Army comrades have to have the same added to their name tapes?


No, I highly doubt I need to add Air Force to my name tape, I think the wedge and "flying" suit is a dead giveaway as to what I do.


----------



## Teflon

Most of us in the Army side of the house don't need to look at our name tapes to remember what element we are in (and the crossed swords are there for the few who do)


----------



## aesop081

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> Well, what uniform would you be wearing when you're flying over water or have to fix helicopters on a ship?



Because the Air Det never goes to work ashore right ?

Camo. Works in all situations.


----------



## hugh19

I agree cam working uniform for the air force makes sense, hence why most countries do it. But for sailors please f@%$ off with it unless we are in the field. We are sailors not soldiers.


----------



## gwp

MARGEN May 8
1.  A NEW VERSION OF NAVAL COMBAT DRESS IS IN PRODUCTION. THE
CURRENT NAVAL COMBAT DRESS ENSEMBLE PROVIDED TO ENTITLED PERSONNEL
IAW REF SCALE OF ISSUE FOR NAVAL OPERATIONAL CLOTHING WILL BE
REPLACED ON AN ATTRITION BASIS THROUGH FAIR WEAR AND TEAR.  STOCK OF
THE NEW VERSION NAVAL COMBAT DRESS WILL SOON BE RECEIVED BY
BASE/WING/AREA SUPPORT UNIT CLOTHING STORES.  THIS MESSAGE IS
DIRECTION FOR THE INTRODUCTION OF THE NEW NAVAL COMBAT DRESS
2.  THE NEW NAVAL COMBAT DRESS WILL BE ISSUED SUBJECT TO STOCK/SIZE
EXHAUSTION OF THE PREVIOUS NAVAL COMBAT DRESS.  THE NEW NAVAL COMBAT
DRESS CONSISTS OF THE FOLLOWING ITEMS:
A.  SHIRT, UNISEX, NAVAL COMBAT
B.  JACKET, UNISEX, NAVAL COMBAT
C.  TROUSERS, MENS, NAVAL COMBAT
D.  SLACKS, WOMENS, NAVAL COMBAT
3.  BASE/WING/ASU CLOTHING STORES ARE TO CONTINUE ISSUE OF THE
EXISTING STOCK OF SUPERSEDED NCD ITEMS UNTIL SIZING STOCK IS
EXHAUSTED, AND THEN COMMENCE ISSUE OF NEW VERSION NCDS
4. WEARING OF SUPERSEDED AND NEW VERSION ITEMS TOGETHER IS
PERMITTED.  FOR EXAMPLE, WEARING OF SUPERSEDED JACKET VERSION WITH
NEW VERSION PANTS


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Well, that probably won't look as stupid as the mix-match of OD and CADPAT the army went thru for a few years.

Now...if only they would get rid of the CADPAT rank slip-ons worn on NCDs for Army DEU types posted to a HMCS...I'd be happy.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Now...if only they would get rid of the CADPAT rank slip-ons worn on NCDs for Army DEU types posted to a HMCS...I'd be happy.



I agree it looks totally ridiculous, even more so when worn as a walking out rig.  This is where a Naval type of CADPAT for shipboard wear could work, all that would separate the various elements on ship would be the name tapes and the slip-ons.


----------



## Messmom

Brass tacks? The Army did not spend the big bucks and the years of design that went into Cadpat to look more military. They designed it to disrupt the view of the enemy of our soldiers. A camouflage uniform for an outfit that has zero operational requirement for it is nothing more than an incredible waste of money.


----------



## Loachman

The reasons that at least two Western Navies are moving towards a disruptive pattern uniform can be found in this post and others in the same thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/79706/post-829478.html#msg829478

The apparent intent of the disruptive pattern is not to blend in with the background, but for dirt, paint, and whatever other stains to blend in with the uniform. Overall, they are a lighter tone than NCD, and therefore likely to a little more comfortable in blazing sun.

Maybe a compromise is in order to keep traditionalists happy: square rig style in a blue/grey disruptive pattern fabric.


----------



## Snakedoc

Loachman said:
			
		

> The reasons that at least two Western Navies are moving towards a disruptive pattern uniform can be found in this post and others in the same thread: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/79706/post-829478.html#msg829478
> 
> The apparent intent of the disruptive pattern is not to blend in with the background, but for dirt, paint, and whatever other stains to blend in with the uniform. Overall, they are a lighter tone than NCD, and therefore likely to a little more comfortable in blazing sun.
> 
> Maybe a compromise is in order to keep traditionalists happy: square rig style in a blue/grey disruptive pattern fabric.



As I had illustrated in the other thread, I used to like the NCD's more and in fact have no problem with the current version that we have.  However, when I saw a picture that was posted in the other thread of the new NCDs, I thought they looked even more sloppy and as others put it, 'like a mall security guard' uniform...quite literally.  Comments about how the shoes look like bowling shoes or about the terrible looking name tag were definitely not off the mark.

The reason I like the shift of some other navies towards the camou version of shipboard dress is that it does not look sloppy, hides some of the stains well, is practical (various pockets etc.), looks professional, and gives a strong military presence  both at home and abroad.  This also gives the Navy a practical uniform that can be worn on ship or in the field with no doubt the individual is a CF member.  I'm not saying we need to look like the army or air force but why does the 'camou' style need to be reserved for those elements?


----------



## Snakedoc

A picture for everyone's reference.



			
				QAD said:
			
		

> New NCD in picture !!
> 
> ... :-\
> 
> http://www.forces.gc.ca./admmat/nice-ehma/itemsclothing-articleshabillement-eng.asp


----------



## Snakedoc

New RAN and USN uniforms...let me know what you guys think.


----------



## tabernac

Aesthetically, maybe we're basing too much off the pictures from the CTS(ailor) site. While the picture seems the convey the look of a mall cop, perhaps the uniform does not fit the good Chief well.

Just a thought.


----------



## Snakedoc

cheeky_monkey said:
			
		

> Aesthetically, maybe we're basing too much off the pictures from the CTS(ailor) site. While the picture seems the convey the look of a mall cop, perhaps the uniform does not fit the good Chief well.
> 
> Just a thought.



I don't see anything wrong with the fit on the Chief...seems to be the right sizing etc.


----------



## Sailorwest

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> The reason I like the shift of some other navies towards the camou version of shipboard dress is that it does not look sloppy, hides some of the stains well, is practical (various pockets etc.), looks professional, and gives a strong military presence  both at home and abroad.  This also gives the Navy a practical uniform that can be worn on ship or in the field with no doubt the individual is a CF member.  I'm not saying we need to look like the army or air force but why does the 'camou' style need to be reserved for those elements?



So what does it matter what colour the uniform is then? We want a uniform in Camo so that it will hide grease and paint stains better? Lets just buy into the Army/Air Force pattern and save a lot of time and energy coming up with a new pattern. Or is this more about our sailors looking like the Yanks when we go to US ports or do joints ops with them? For me, the naval combat is a utilitarian uniform that should never have been approved as a walking out form of dress. Dockyards and shipboard wear only. It was designed for function not presentation.


----------



## gcclarke

The same argument can of course be made for CADPAT, or any uniform other than DEUs. Whether or not they happen to look cool is secondary to the function that they provide. As to them being walking out dress... do we really want to start forcing everyone to change before and after work? Don't get me wrong, whilst aboard ship I generally do anyways, but I see no problem with people having the options. I realize it may not look the "sharpest", but I'm also fairly certain that Joe Q. Public is also smart enough to figure out that it's working dress, and not what the honour guard is wearing. 

And if you do feel that a strong military presence is important, well then letting people wear their NCDs to and from work certainly gives a stronger presence than making them wear civvies en route.


----------



## tabernac

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> I don't see anything wrong with the fit on the Chief...seems to be the right sizing etc.



Pants are too long, giving them a sagging look. Perhaps the pant creases weren't pressed before the pictures were taken.


----------



## Sub_Guy

Aren't the pant creases sewn in?


----------



## Sailorwest

gcclarke said:
			
		

> The same argument can of course be made for CADPAT, or any uniform other than DEUs. Whether or not they happen to look cool is secondary to the function that they provide. As to them being walking out dress... do we really want to start forcing everyone to change before and after work? Don't get me wrong, whilst aboard ship I generally do anyways, but I see no problem with people having the options. I realize it may not look the "sharpest", but I'm also fairly certain that Joe Q. Public is also smart enough to figure out that it's working dress, and not what the honour guard is wearing.
> 
> And if you do feel that a strong military presence is important, well then letting people wear their NCDs to and from work certainly gives a stronger presence than making them wear civvies en route.



Well, I think the decision to make combats a walking out dress was before the new CADPAT was adopted and it was really an Army oriented decision. The Navy chose to allow NCD's as a walking out dress to allow the sailors to have a similar work wear that they could wear in public. In reality, I don't think the NCD provides a very good public image for the Navy and should be restricted to dockyards and on ships. 

The Army can argue that the combats and the new CADPAT uniforms were generally what the public thinks about when they see soldiers. I don't think the same is true for the Navy and NCDs. Even less so, should we adopt some form of camo working uniform. We then become soldiers in some weird blue camouflage. What sailors should be wearing in public is not the same as what soldiers should be wearing. I guess that I am lumping the Air Force in with the Army as they have adopted the CADPAT uniform as a common dress of the day. Sorry for any offence to those in the light blue.


----------



## gcclarke

This still leaves unanswered the question of what to use as a walking out dress. Re-inventing work dress to look better is an option, but I highly doubt we could justify spending the money, especially nearing the tail end of a project designed to revamp NCDs. As well, doing so would likely have a negative impact upon the functionality of the work dress. 

The other option is to simply make DEUs the only authorized work dress. The only effect would be that everyone who has NCDs as dress-of-the-day and currently commutes in them, would now commute in civvies. Thus decreasing the visibility of the Navy. While NCDs may not be the best possible public image for the Navy, and I'm not sure I agree with you on this point, they are A public image for the Navy, which is better than no public image for the Navy. 

The only way to have functional work dress and increased public exposure to a sharper uniform would be to force everyone to commute in DEUs, and have those who need to wear NCDs change at work. I know I sure as heck don't want to do this, and I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of sailors would agree with me on this point.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want a work dress that works, it's going to look like a work dress. And if you want public exposure of the Navy, that exposure is going to include that work dress. 

But I also don't see why that's a bad thing. This is what we work in. I don't see why it is a bad thing to give the public a glimpse of what we actually do. You said that CADPAT works because it's generally what the public thinks about when they see soldiers. I see no reason why it would be a bad thing for the public to see NCDs and think about sailors as people who work in NCDs for a living. It's certainly a better perception of us than if they were only to see us in Mess Kit and have people think we do nothing but cocktail parties.


----------



## Sub_Guy

gcclarke said:
			
		

> The only way to have functional work dress and increased public exposure to a sharper uniform would be to force everyone to commute in DEUs, and have those who need to wear NCDs change at work.



It wasn't that long ago when this was the case.  You had to change at work, and NCD's were only authorized for wear while posted to a sea going unit.


----------



## Snakedoc

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I guess what I'm trying to say is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want a work dress that works, it's going to look like a work dress. And if you want public exposure of the Navy, that exposure is going to include that work dress.



I wholeheartedly agree with this.  In fact, didn't our former CDS say that all members should be going to work in their dress of the day in order to increase exposure for the CF as part of OP Connection?



			
				Sailorwest said:
			
		

> The Navy chose to allow NCD's as a walking out dress to allow the sailors to have a similar work wear that they could wear in public. In reality, I don't think the NCD provides a very good public image for the Navy and should be restricted to dockyards and on ships.
> 
> The Army can argue that the combats and the new CADPAT uniforms were generally what the public thinks about when they see soldiers. I don't think the same is true for the Navy and NCDs. Even less so, should we adopt some form of camo working uniform. We then become soldiers in some weird blue camouflage. What sailors should be wearing in public is not the same as what soldiers should be wearing.



Would you have an ideal uniform in mind that would be suitable as work dress but still allow the public the right image of a Sailor?  I personally think the camou style uniform conveys to the public that we are military members of the CF and either the grey or 'navy blue' style coinciding with our 'grey hulls' or the navy's colors.  I am not saying the camou style is the answer but rather one of the options to consider outside of the currently 'updated' NCDs.  I would be fine with a 'military' looking uniform that was a solid color as well, I just don't think the current NCDs provide the public with that image and the new ones....unfortunately provide that of a 'mall security guard' IMO.


----------



## gcclarke

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Would you have an ideal uniform in mind that would be suitable as work dress but still allow the public the right image of a Sailor?  I personally think the camou style uniform conveys to the public that we are military members of the CF and either the grey or 'navy blue' style coinciding with our 'grey hulls' or the navy's colors.  I am not saying the camou style is the answer but rather one of the options to consider outside of the currently 'updated' NCDs.  I would be fine with a 'military' looking uniform that was a solid color as well, I just don't think the current NCDs provide the public with that image and the new ones....unfortunately provide that of a 'mall security guard' IMO.



I'm not really sure I can envision an ideal. Honestly, I think the best option is just NCDs (new or old) minus the jacket. In my mind, the jacket is what "breaks" the image, and turns it more mall cop-ish. That having been said, I'm not sure what would be the best way to fix it. A colour other than black? Add some tailoring to make it look like less of a potato sack? I'm not sure.
While the idea of blue camo would indeed get the point across that we're in the military, I don't really think it's the right image for us. To me, that would just give the impression that we're just soldiers on ships, but let's face it, the job we do is very different from what the army does. Camo for the sake of public image, as opposed to actually needing camouflage isn't my preferred option.
As long as we don't go back to a separate dress for officers vice NCMs, to the square rig stuff. It would, in my not so humble opinion, be a step in the wrong direction, and run contrary to trends not only in the Navy, but in society at large.


----------



## Radar114

One of the guys onboard who is doing the trial said the stuff is too big.  They are using that computer system for sizing and all of his stuff isn't working for size.  Another guys says he likes it.  Betterfit to the uniform.

I have the boots.  Hate them, too heavy and clunky.  Only good thing to say is about the cushion and the speed laces as I call them.  Now for zippers please.

I hope the nametag is just for show and no intention of using it.


----------



## Monsoon

gcclarke said:
			
		

> In my mind, the jacket is what "breaks" the image, and turns it more mall cop-ish.


I'm not sure the jacket is altogether different from the one we have now (aside from the arm pockets). I think it looks a bit dweebish in the photo because he's wearing it zipped all the way up to the chin, but I remember that when they first issued the current jacket people used to do that as well... until they realized that it looked less retarded with the collar folded down.


----------



## gcclarke

hamiltongs said:
			
		

> I'm not sure the jacket is altogether different from the one we have now (aside from the arm pockets). I think it looks a bit dweebish in the photo because he's wearing it zipped all the way up to the chin, but I remember that when they first issued the current jacket people used to do that as well... until they realized that it looked less retarded with the collar folded down.



I'm afraid you'll have to forgive me if I think the jacket looks dweebish, either now, or in the pictures provided.


----------



## jollyjacktar

The new stuff looks pretty much like the old stuff to my old eyes  :.  As a work uniform I don't have a problem with it at all.  Not a fan of walking out dress.  I prefer to wear my own clothes, thank you.  As for cammo for sailors, especially as walk out dress, ridiculous and unnecessary.  The garrison dress of the 90's was ugly to the extreme and a big waste of dollars that could have been spent more wisely instead of making some bloody chief in Borden feel better about himself.  If you are going to be doing operations ashore away from home for example as part of the boarding team  or TFA then you should be issued with the appropriate colour cadpat if you need it as I was for TFA.    my :2c:


----------



## Stoker

I really don't why the powers to be had to mess with the current NCD's. I had a look at these new ones up close and they look heavy and baggy. The "name tag" and the Canada patch looks out of place, with the Navy/Marine makes it simply makes it look stupid.
I personally think the current salt and peppers should be the walking out dress, it looks more professional. The work dress should be some kind of fire resistant coverall, other countries successfully use coveralls for their dress and it works fine. I bet the price for a new set of NCD's far outweight the price for a set of coveralls.


----------



## aesop081

Stoker said:
			
		

> I personally think the current salt and peppers should be the walking out dress, .



Forgive my ignorance but i dont understand this fascination with "walking out dress". Its been mentioned here many times.

I wear flight suits to work and its doesnt seem to say "i'm an amateur" as i travel to and from work, so i dont get this preceived need to go to work in one uniform and change into another, just to revert back on the way home.

Just one more thing to piss off people if you ask me.


----------



## Snakedoc

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Forgive my ignorance but i dont understand this fascination with "walking out dress". Its been mentioned here many times.
> 
> I wear flight suits to work and its doesnt seem to say "i'm an amateur" as i travel to and from work, so i dont get this preceived need to go to work in one uniform and change into another, just to revert back on the way home.
> 
> Just one more thing to piss off people if you ask me.



I agree, I personally think a uniform is a uniform and you can have uniforms for doing physical/active work (work dress) or office work (3B's etc.).  Not sure why there is this need to wear one uniform in route to work, then change just to be at work, and then change again just to go home...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I am glad I am not the only one who was wondering about this walking out dress stuff.  I never heard of it, and we used to get plenty dirty at work in Gagetown when I was green, and we still 'went home' like that.  What gives with this "the public must see the Navy as clean and shiney all the time" idea?


----------



## Occam

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Forgive my ignorance but i dont understand this fascination with "walking out dress". Its been mentioned here many times.
> 
> I wear flight suits to work and its doesnt seem to say "i'm an amateur" as i travel to and from work, so i dont get this preceived need to go to work in one uniform and change into another, just to revert back on the way home.



As was mentioned earlier, the whole "walking out dress" shenanigans started just prior to the Navy's 75th anniversary in 1985.  Work dress (the green stuff and the NCDs) was only for shipboard use for the longest time, because it got so ingrained into MARCOMHQ that sailors could only look presentable to the public in service dress.



> Just one more thing to piss off people if you ask me.



We're talking about an organization that actually published (and frequently amended) policy for saluting in the tunnels outside the dockyard.   ;D


----------



## Messmom

Occam said:
			
		

> We're talking about an organization that actually published (and frequently amended) policy for saluting in the tunnels outside the dockyard.   ;D



Also an organization that took 80 years to figure out the sailor's heads might get cold in the winter and that a touque might be a good idea....... ;D

And then published about a hundred changes to the dress regs about when and with what you could wear it!! I swear we all need PDAs or BlackBerry's just to keep abreast of the dress regs as they change from the time you leave the house until you arrive at Stad or Dockyard.


----------



## gcclarke

Messmom said:
			
		

> Also an organization that took 80 years to figure out the sailor's heads might get cold in the winter and that a touque might be a good idea....... ;D
> 
> And then published about a hundred changes to the dress regs about when and with what you could wear it!! I swear we all need PDAs or BlackBerry's just to keep abreast of the dress regs as they change from the time you leave the house until you arrive at Stad or Dockyard.



Hopefully it'll be one of those ones with GPS installed, so it can alert you when you're nearing a boundry and need to change. I can hear the voice on the way home now. 

"You are approaching the dockyard gate. In 20 m remove ballcap, put on beret."

"You are approaching home. In 50 m remove pants."


----------



## Sailorwest

gcclarke said:
			
		

> "You are approaching home. In 50 m remove pants."



You remove your pants when you are 50 m from home? Is that rain or shine?  ;D


----------



## gcclarke

Sailorwest said:
			
		

> You remove your pants when you are 50 m from home? Is that rain or shine?  ;D



I was thinking more along the lines of "In 50m you will be at home and thus can remove your pants." That having been said, your interpertation sounds like more fun.


----------



## Sailorwest

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I was thinking more along the lines of "In 50m you will be at home and thus can remove your pants." That having been said, your interpertation sounds like more fun.


Yes, until you get to spend the night in jail contemplating why you wandered down the street without wearing your pants.  :crybaby:


----------



## Privateer

Necro thread, but the thread title matches the subject of this post.

The Facebook page, "Royal Canadian Navy Today and Yesterday" posted the image below, identifying it as "proposed new naval combat design".  The NCD's are being revised again?


----------



## jollyjacktar

I have no doubt.  We "might" be getting a fleece jacket too.  I've seen a suggested prototype.  I like it and hope we get one.


----------



## Lumber

Privateer said:
			
		

> Necro thread, but the thread title matches the subject of this post.
> 
> The Facebook page, "Royal Canadian Navy Today and Yesterday" posted the image below, identifying it as "proposed new naval combat design".  The NCD's are being revised again?



Looks like someone on the dress committee has a real hard-on for the army. That looks just like the new CADPAT but in black (in terms of patch placement and pockets).


----------



## jollyjacktar

Why not, from a production point of view.  Our walking out dress rain gear is a direct copy of the cadpat pattern.  Makes it much easier to have the company make the same pattern clothes just in different fabrics as specified.  Will cost less as there's less change up that needs to be done.


----------



## dimsum

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Why not, from a production point of view.  Our walking out dress rain gear is a direct copy of the cadpat pattern.  Makes it much easier to have the company make the same pattern clothes just in different fabrics as specified.  Will cost less as there's less change up that needs to be done.



I'd say it makes sense for even small things like nametapes and ranks.  Is the new CADPAT clothing fire-retardant?  

The RN also have something similar (a dark blue version of the Brit Army's operational dress):


----------



## ModlrMike

I know it's just a model, but they could at least have gone with the current black and gold accoutrements.


----------



## Stoker

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> I know it's just a model, but they could at least have gone with the current black and gold accoutrements.



The latest dress committee minutes did mention a new style of NCD's. If they shrank down the Canada flag and changed over to RCN name tags and ranks it would look better.


----------



## NavyShooter

I heard similar rumors....identical pattern NCD's to current Combat Clothing, just in black vice CADPAT.

Same company, same patterns, makes sense.

NS


----------



## dimsum

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> The latest dress committee minutes did mention a new style of NCD's. If they shrank down the Canada flag and changed over to RCN name tags and ranks it would look better.



Maybe because I'm just used to seeing the new flag patches, but I don't really notice them now.  Also, they seem to be the same size as the RN photo on my last post and the ones the RAN wear (below).  I guess the follow-on question is whether Supply will stock two types of flags in various colours, or are outerwear and flying clothing also switching to the new flag patch?


----------



## Stoker

It appears ships badges and name tags will be velcro backed and the possibility of a trade badge.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I guess the follow-on question is whether Supply will stock two types of flags in various colours, or are outerwear and flying clothing also switching to the new flag patch?



Oh no!  Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo don't even suggest that...it's too late.  FFS!   ;D


----------



## dimsum

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Oh no!  Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo don't even suggest that...it's too late.  FFS!   ;D



S'alright.  No one listens to what I say - or else someone would be announcing 2-piece flying suits that we don't need to tuck in for ease of taking off/putting on in hot weather like...oh...OP IMPACT   :

Yes, I know... :deadhorse:

Question re:  flag types still stands though.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Yup.  I do the 2 piece deal only and envy the RAAF.


----------



## Eaglelord17

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> It appears ships badges and name tags will be velcro backed and the possibility of a trade badge.



The issue I could see with the velcro is when putting the NCDs through laundry, it is going to make it much harder to identify whose is who. It will also make it easier for people to steal/accidentally acquire others uniforms.


----------



## Furniture

I like the idea of the velcro for simplicity, people can write their name in permenant marker on the tags inside like the army and air force do. I'm also in favour of trade badges on NCDs, that way you know who's who in flashgear.


----------



## Pusser

Eaglelord17 said:
			
		

> The issue I could see with the velcro is when putting the NCDs through laundry, it is going to make it much harder to identify whose is who. It will also make it easier for people to steal/accidentally acquire others uniforms.



What's preventing this from happening now with Army/Air Force CADPAT?  Everything is velcroed on to those.  First world problem.

Interestingly, the original plan for the old OD combat clothing when it was first introduced c.1962 was that it would have no badges sewn on. When soldiers went to the Mobile Laundry and Bath Units (MLBU), they would simply toss the ones they were wearing in the bins to be washed and then pick up clean ones on the other side.  You would probably never wear the exact same set ever again.  In other words, you handed in the dirty ones and received a set of clean ones in return.  As long as it was the same size it wasn't supposed to matter.  Of course there are huge opportunities for screw-ups here (e.g. you give up the set that fits only to find out that they've run out of clean ones that would fit).  Anyway, it was a short lived concept and nametags were sewn on...


----------



## Privateer

This image was posted today on a Facebook page ("Royal Canadian Navy Today and Yesterday"), and describe as, "New Naval Combat uniform that will eventually be issued":


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Just a few personal comments:

1) I am happy to see they limited themselves to a single Velcroed "flag" and used the ensign. It has a Canadian flag in the upper quarter and putting a Canadian flag on the other shoulder would have been overkill and "Army" like bling in my mind. So, happy about that one.

2) I still think the "rank-in-the-belly-and-middle-back" thing is stupid. We sit at various watch station chairs all the time and in ops rooms and equipment control rooms. Not having the rank on the shoulders means no one can figure out who is sitting where at a glance. My view: Stupid, especially considering you are not saving any number of  rank slip-ons: It's two on the shoulders or two on the belly/back combination either way.

3) Don't like the "army" type big pockets on the pant. Mark my word (and by personal experience) these damn things will get caught all the time in the fittings protruding everywhere on ships, especially in machinery spaces.


Overall look is OK, but again (and this is the dinosaur in me speaking) don't wear this ashore - DEU for everyone on solid ground please.

Oh! And just a question here: Has the Navy switched to "criss-cross" lacing of the boots like the Army instead of the old "straight across" pattern we used to have on sabots to permit easy citing-off with pocket knife if we found ourselves in the water? Just asking.


----------



## Lumber

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> 2) I still think the "rank-in-the-belly-and-middle-back" thing is stupid. We sit at various watch station chairs all the time and in ops rooms and equipment control rooms. Not having the rank on the shoulders means no one can figure out who is sitting where at a glance. My view: Stupid, especially considering you are not saving any number of  rank slip-ons: It's two on the shoulders or two on the belly/back combination either way.



Yes! This! Argh....



			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Overall look is OK, but again (and this is the dinosaur in me speaking) don't wear this ashore - DEU for everyone on solid ground please.



You must hate seeing almost everyone ashore walking around in NCDs!


----------



## Journeyman

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> .... don't wear this ashore - DEU for everyone on solid ground please.


If I were to guess, it looks like the photo was taken at the pointy end of the fleet -- on the shores of the Rideau Canal, far from any operational Navy.   ;D


Although I'd be hesitant to refer to NDHQ as "solid ground."


----------



## jollyjacktar

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Just a few personal comments:
> 
> 1) I am happy to see they limited themselves to a single Velcroed "flag" and used the ensign. It has a Canadian flag in the upper quarter and putting a Canadian flag on the other shoulder would have been overkill and "Army" like bling in my mind. So, happy about that one.
> 
> Would like to see a trade badge on the other shoulder, that would be helpful.
> 
> 2) I still think the "rank-in-the-belly-and-middle-back" thing is stupid. We sit at various watch station chairs all the time and in ops rooms and equipment control rooms. Not having the rank on the shoulders means no one can figure out who is sitting where at a glance. My view: Stupid, especially considering you are not saving any number of  rank slip-ons: It's two on the shoulders or two on the belly/back combination either way.
> 
> 3) Don't like the "army" type big pockets on the pant. Mark my word (and by personal experience) these damn things will get caught all the time in the fittings protruding everywhere on ships, especially in machinery spaces.
> 
> The present NCD trousers have pockets and this has not been an issue that I have seen, experienced or heard of to date.
> 
> 
> Overall look is OK, but again (and this is the dinosaur in me speaking) don't wear this ashore - DEU for everyone on solid ground please.
> 
> Oh! And just a question here: Has the Navy switched to "criss-cross" lacing of the boots like the Army instead of the old "straight across" pattern we used to have on sabots to permit easy citing-off with pocket knife if we found ourselves in the water? Just asking.
> 
> Yes, cross threading of the boots.  Been that way since I moved over to the navy.  Although, no-one gets in your face if you do.


----------



## FSTO

Lumber said:
			
		

> You must hate seeing almost everyone ashore walking around in NCDs!


Yes, yes I do!!!


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Lumber said:
			
		

> You must hate seeing almost everyone ashore walking around in NCDs!



I do. Sorry! That's just me, but I am certain civilians don't appreciate people walking around looking like they are from the local police swat team unless you are at the location of a heist and the streets are barricaded.

Do you see Cruise ship officers and personnel walking around dressed like that? Do you see Merchant ship officers walking around looking like that? I don't.

And BTW, if these NCD's are so damn expensive, isn't it a good idea to use your much cheaper DEU's when you are not in a situation where you are expected to survive a fire or a gas attack?


----------



## Privateer

This was posted on the same site as, "Interim changes to the existing Naval Combat uniform".  I threw up a little in my mouth when I saw it.  It's like the "Navy / Marine" tape is undead - it cannot be killed.  Way too much bling here.


----------



## runormal

Privateer said:
			
		

> This image was posted today on a Facebook page ("Royal Canadian Navy Today and Yesterday"), and describe as, "New Naval Combat uniform that will eventually be issued":



Is it a slip on or the new ''velcro rank'' that is currently on the army tunics? It ''appears'' to be a slip on as it _seems _to wavy for velcro. That is my major gripe of the new combats (though I don't actually have one). I just don't understand why we had to change the ''slip on'' for the new shirt when everthing else uses the slip on..  




			
				Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Just a few personal comments:
> 
> 1) I am happy to see they limited themselves to a single Velcroed "flag" and used the ensign. It has a Canadian flag in the upper quarter and putting a Canadian flag on the other shoulder would have been overkill and "Army" like bling in my mind. So, happy about that one.



I wonder how long it takes for someone to get a good idea to use the Canadian Land Forces Command Ensign  >.


----------



## donaldk

Privateer said:
			
		

> This was posted on the same site as, "Interim changes to the existing Naval Combat uniform".  I threw up a little in my mouth when I saw it.  It's like the "Navy / Marine" tape is undead - it cannot be killed.  Way too much bling here.



Someone's leading change PER point for sure...  so lets spend a whack of cash retrofitting the existing NCDs to match the in-trial ICUs, and do the entire thing again on the new ICUs, instead of doing it in one shot.


----------



## dimsum

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> 2) I still think the "rank-in-the-belly-and-middle-back" thing is stupid. We sit at various watch station chairs all the time and in ops rooms and equipment control rooms. Not having the rank on the shoulders means no one can figure out who is sitting where at a glance. My view: Stupid, especially considering you are not saving any number of  rank slip-ons: It's two on the shoulders or two on the belly/back combination either way.



Where does it say there will be a rank on the back?  CADPAT uniforms only have rank on the front.  

Also, on watch, wouldn't people call each other by position, not rank (ie. SWC, not LT(N) Bloggins)?  At that point, would it matter what rank the person was?

I do agree that a trade badge would be helpful though, esp in flash gear.

Sidebar:  A modified version of this (in olive green) could replace the current 2-piece flying suit top - and it doesn't have to be tucked in


----------



## Navy_Pete

I guess this means that all our parts bins are full so they had money to spare?  ;D


----------



## Eland2

Privateer said:
			
		

> This image was posted today on a Facebook page ("Royal Canadian Navy Today and Yesterday"), and describe as, "New Naval Combat uniform that will eventually be issued":



I've never served in the navy, but I did do a couple of years as an armoured recce crewman in a reserve unit, and I don't like the look of the new NCD that is shown in the picture. While it looks eminently practical with all the extra pockets and the bloused pants, it doesn't look very 'naval'. The old NCD was much sharper and neater in appearance and looked quite naval.

This new outfit looks like the designer tried to shoehorn a naval combat design into something that looks vaguely like a SWAT uniform or army combat clothing, and kinda left behind some of the long-standing naval dress traditions. It's a good thing that the designer didn't add a camouflage pattern, like the US Navy have done with their NCD.


----------



## dimsum

Eland2 said:
			
		

> I've never served in the navy, but I did do a couple of years as an armoured recce crewman in a reserve unit, and I don't like the look of the new NCD that is shown in the picture. While it looks eminently practical with all the extra pockets and the bloused pants, it doesn't look very 'naval'. The old NCD was much sharper and neater in appearance and looked quite naval.
> 
> This new outfit looks like the designer tried to shoehorn a naval combat design into something that looks vaguely like a SWAT uniform or army combat clothing, and kinda left behind some of the long-standing naval dress traditions. It's a good thing that the designer didn't add a camouflage pattern, like the US Navy have done with their NCD.



I would argue that operational dress shouldn't be designed based on how it looks.  The purpose is to be a working dress on a ship, which means that quick donning to fight a fire or flood is the key.  

I don't understand why the powers that be decided to blouse the boots (or tucking into the boots?) but I'd suspect that the new NCD be quicker to put on and attack a fire than the older NCD if one were to just tuck them in.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I would argue that operational dress shouldn't be designed based on how it looks.  The purpose is to be a working dress on a ship, which means that quick donning to fight a fire or flood is the key.
> 
> I don't understand why the powers that be decided to blouse the boots (or tucking into the boots?) but I'd suspect that the new NCD be quicker to put on and attack a fire than the older NCD if one were to just tuck them in.



Tucking your pants into the socks went out the window (thank god) several years ago when it was finally concluded that wool socks don't have the same fire retardant properties as nomex.


----------



## NavalMoose

Why not one piece overalls, you can put them on in 2 seconds, boots on then off to the fire at 2 in the morning?


----------



## jollyjacktar

There is resistance from some quarters,  the ladies don't find them user friendly.  I also understand there is a hygiene concern of the garment touching the deck while using the facilities (easily overcome by tucking the sleeves into the inside while seated) by some folks.  There are also those that feel they're sloppy looking, not Pusser enough.  I could go on further at the detractors but...


----------



## Pusser

NavalMoose said:
			
		

> Why not one piece overalls, you can put them on in 2 seconds, boots on then off to the fire at 2 in the morning?



That has been suggested many times, but seemingly rejected for two reasons:  

1)  it's kind of scruffy and doesn't look "military enough" (I'm serious); and

2)  a one piece outfit makes certain functions awkward for females (apparently they don't tend to like entirely disrobing to pee).

I can actually see a certain logic in using the same cut as the Army combat clothing.  There should certainly be some savings to be had by keeping the same set-up for manufacturing it and only having to change out the material.  The RN has actually done exactly this.  They also have a strip that says "ROYAL NAVY" on theirs.  In that vein, if we must have that strip, I would prefer it say, "RC NAVY," or "MARINE RC," but no one asked me.  They should also drop the maple leaf on the "NAVY" strip regardless (there's one on the ensign) and if they are going to insist on the SSI, drop the anchor off the name tape as well.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Sidebar:  A modified version of this (in olive green) could replace the current 2-piece flying suit top - and it doesn't have to be tucked in



Agree!


----------



## PuckChaser

I personally don't think there's enough things on it that say "Navy" or have anchors. Clearly people will never be able to recognize that you guys are sailors.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Why isnt our leadership just coming out and say they have a fetish for Army styled uniforms ?

I have no issue with our current NCDs, infact I prefer them over combats.  

Building pride in your service wont happen becuase people look like SWAT team members it will happen when we look after each other and protect each other from bull**** and chicken**** decisions and regulations.


----------



## Eland2

Pusser said:
			
		

> That has been suggested many times, but seemingly rejected for two reasons:
> 
> 1)  it's kind of scruffy and doesn't look "military enough" (I'm serious); and
> 
> 2)  a one piece outfit makes certain functions awkward for females (apparently they don't tend to like entirely disrobing to pee).
> 
> I can actually see a certain logic in using the same cut as the Army combat clothing.  There should certainly be some savings to be had by keeping the same set-up for manufacturing it and only having to change out the material.  The RN has actually done exactly this.  They also have a strip that says "ROYAL NAVY" on theirs.  In that vein, if we must have that strip, I would prefer it say, "RC NAVY," or "MARINE RC," but no one asked me.  They should also drop the maple leaf on the "NAVY" strip regardless (there's one on the ensign) and if they are going to insist on the SSI, drop the anchor off the name tape as well.



I suspect that whoever designed the 'NAVY' identifier strip may have placed a maple leaf in the middle to act as a visual separator between the English and French words. Think of it this way, what looks better and more readable?

1. NAVY   MARINE (no separator)

or

2. NAVY    X    MARINE (where the 'X' represents a maple leaf)

(1) is potentially confusing because people who don't read or speak French won't know if you're referring to the Navy or US Marines, or something along those lines.

(2) to my eyes looks better, but there is too much space between the words 'Navy' and 'Marine' in the actual design.

One problem is that the maple leaf in the middle seems too small somehow, adding to the sense of too much space.

If I were the designer, I might have gone with something like this instead, and put the maple leaf somewhere else, maybe next to the sailor's name on his or her nametag:

But don't mind me, I'm just blathering on here.


----------



## Eaglelord17

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> 3) Don't like the "army" type big pockets on the pant. Mark my word (and by personal experience) these damn things will get caught all the time in the fittings protruding everywhere on ships, especially in machinery spaces.
> 
> The present NCD trousers have pockets and this has not been an issue that I have seen, experienced or heard of to date.


This happened to me several times when I was a Stoker. You likely don't hear about it, as usually we would just go get a new pair instead of complaining about it.



			
				NavalMoose said:
			
		

> Why not one piece overalls, you can put them on in 2 seconds, boots on then off to the fire at 2 in the morning?



There are people on the ships who have them, Hull Techs, and flight deck Stokers (this last one is a point of debate). I believe they are also used on subs as well. 

Overall it was something that the Stokers who were working wanted, as NCDs aren't really the best clothes for crawling in the bilge. Our NCDs could get pretty ratty, pretty quickly, with all the oils, grease, dirt and diesel you were working with on a regular basis.

Personally I feel that all MSE trades should get coveralls as a minimum, however it likely won't happen.


----------



## Furniture

The new NCD design looks sharp to my eye, maybe they could drop blousing the pants at the top of the boots but that's pretty minor.

The pockets are handy to have since they don't make '82 pattern webbing anymore, and utility pouches as "war bags" will run out. People use the leg pockets on the current NCDs to carry flash gear, field dressings, and triangular bandages. Firefighters and police switched to cargo pockets as well because they are more useful than a hindrance. The design looks to consist of a shirt and pants with a black undershirt, that removes the need for an extra shirt/jacket saving cost and space in the locker. To those saying it looks too "army" I ask, what in particular screams "navy" about a work shirt and cargo pants like we wear now? Screams repair man/furnace installation to me...

As to flags/badges, that is the current military fashion all over the world. Large flags are easy to identify and help us stand out as military.

Coveralls... the only people I've met that actually like coveralls are people who get them issued on a small scale, or they are an odd size. Coveralls are always in my experience too big or to small, imagine trying to get a common size as the last ship to be issued the new uniform. They are inconvenient for anything except throwing on in a rush, or crawling around in confined/dirty spaces.


----------



## dimsum

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Tucking your pants into the socks went out the window (thank god) several years ago when it was finally concluded that wool socks don't have the same fire retardant properties as nomex.



Good.  I was convinced at the time that it was all a grand plan to make sure that we were wearing the (then-issued) "socks, wool, itchy".   :nod:


----------



## Grimey

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Good.  I was convinced at the time that it was all a grand plan to make sure that we were wearing the (then-issued) "socks, wool, itchy".   :nod:


I had a seven year break between sea postings with no refresher training.  First bong-bongs after my lengthy sojourn ashore, my pants get tucked into socks like it's 1999.  Oh, how the others laughed.


----------



## CombatDoc

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> The pockets are handy to have since they don't make '82 pattern webbing anymore, and utility pouches as "war bags" will run out. People use the leg pockets on the current NCDs to carry flash gear, field dressings, and triangular bandages.


They should be carrying flash gear, tourniquets, QuickClot gauze and Israeli/Olaes-type bandages if they are serious about saving lives (theirs or their shipmates).  The RCN has been slow to adopt the hard-learned combat casualty care lessons from Afghanistan. Naval combat is, after all, blast and burn, with drowning and hypothermia added to the mix.


----------



## Underway

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> They should be carrying flash gear, tourniquets, QuickClot gauze and Israeli/Olaes-type bandages if they are serious about saving lives (theirs or their shipmates).  The RCN has been slow to adopt the hard-learned combat casualty care lessons from Afghanistan. Naval combat is, after all, blast and burn, with drowning and hypothermia added to the mix.



Burn, falling/impact injuries, and inhalation injuries (ie smoke).  Problem with Afghanistan combat is that the mechanism of injury was very different so the casualty care needs to be different.  Also hypothermia, hyperthermia are problems with the army as well, guys were getting hypothermia in the middle of the dessert because of the temp differential at night.

  Not sure how handy quick clot is in burn injuries, seeing that it cooks the flesh when its working.  Also quick clot and israeli bandages do not mix well with water.  At all.  Maybe a need for a few tourniquets onboard but losing a leg is not a very likely injury, maybe in every first aid kit (with the quick clot).  But with an entire casualty care system in place onboard all we really need to do is stock them, not carry them on every member.  Ideally you'll be handing your first aid over to a casualty clearing team within 6 minutes of an injury, usually much faster.  It's usually about getting the casualty clear of the fire and then treating at a safe point.


----------



## jollyjacktar

WeatherdoG said:
			
		

> The new NCD design looks sharp to my eye, maybe they could drop blousing the pants at the top of the boots but that's pretty minor.
> 
> The pockets are handy to have since they don't make '82 pattern webbing anymore, and utility pouches as "war bags" will run out. People use the leg pockets on the current NCDs to carry flash gear, field dressings, and triangular bandages. Firefighters and police switched to cargo pockets as well because they are more useful than a hindrance. The design looks to consist of a shirt and pants with a black undershirt, that removes the need for an extra shirt/jacket saving cost and space in the locker. To those saying it looks too "army" I ask, what in particular screams "navy" about a work shirt and cargo pants like we wear now? Screams repair man/furnace installation to me...
> 
> As to flags/badges, that is the current military fashion all over the world. Large flags are easy to identify and help us stand out as military.
> 
> Coveralls... the only people I've met that actually like coveralls are people who get them issued on a small scale, or they are an odd size. Coveralls are always in my experience too big or to small, imagine trying to get a common size as the last ship to be issued the new uniform. They are inconvenient for anything except throwing on in a rush, or crawling around in confined/dirty spaces.



There is a downside to the new look in that we're going to lose one layer of fire protection with the jacket gone.

The trousers have elastic bottoms, so there will be blousing whether you want it or not.

Coveralls are like Keith's.  Those who like them, like them a lot.  I  have worn them at sea and there are advantages. Speed in getting dressed or into bunker gear especially so.

I understand the new gear will start to roll out with the AOPS crews.


----------



## jollyjacktar

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> They should be carrying flash gear, tourniquets, QuickClot gauze and Israeli/Olaes-type bandages if they are serious about saving lives (theirs or their shipmates).  The RCN has been slow to adopt the hard-learned combat casualty care lessons from Afghanistan. Naval combat is, after all, blast and burn, with drowning and hypothermia added to the mix.



I would be happy to see a Naval TCCC come on line and to more guys than just the CCT.  The more guys who know things is beneficial in my eyes.


----------



## MedCorps

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I would be happy to see a Naval TCCC come on line and to more guys than just the CCT.  The more guys who know things is beneficial in my eyes.



This has been looked at (RCN TCCC) by the CF H Svcs Gp but the RCN has been slow to adopt. I am not exactly sure why, as it was well researched and then endorsed by at least two RCN Surgeons. 

If you look at the injury patterns suffered by the RN in the Falklands (which we did in modifying the CA TCCC to RCN TCCC) you will soon see the utility of such a course and having the required lifesaving interventions at hand. Waiting 6 min to handover to a CCT without arresting massive bleeding from an Exocet missile hitting you above the waterline and causing a fierce fire will result in you handing over a dead shipmate. 

MC


----------



## jollyjacktar

I know Dr Hache was ready to do the training himself when he was on PRE.  I strongly believe as many of us should have the knowledge as possible, for the very reasons you give MC.  My sandbox time convinces me further.


----------



## CombatDoc

Underway said:
			
		

> Burn, falling/impact injuries, and inhalation injuries (ie smoke).  Problem with Afghanistan combat is that the mechanism of injury was very different so the casualty care needs to be different.  Also hypothermia, hyperthermia are problems with the army as well, guys were getting hypothermia in the middle of the dessert because of the temp differential at night.
> 
> Not sure how handy quick clot is in burn injuries, seeing that it cooks the flesh when its working.  Also quick clot and israeli bandages do not mix well with water.  At all.  Maybe a need for a few tourniquets onboard but losing a leg is not a very likely injury, maybe in every first aid kit (with the quick clot).  But with an entire casualty care system in place onboard all we really need to do is stock them, not carry them on every member.  Ideally you'll be handing your first aid over to a casualty clearing team within 6 minutes of an injury, usually much faster.  It's usually about getting the casualty clear of the fire and then treating at a safe point.


We will just have to agree to disagree on this topic. I agree that smoke and inhalation injury in confined spaces are a complicating injury. However, every member of the ship's company also needs to be carrying a tourniquet. 

If you understand blast injury, then you understand that the mechanism of injury from explosion - such as an anti-ship missile - is actually very similar. RN ships (remember the Sheffield) in the Falklands, the USS Cole - they are blast and burn. The USS Cole incident would likely have been much worse if they had not had additional medical staff aboard (a Physician Assistant, IIRC). Your comment that all you need is "a few tourniquets onboard" demonstrates you do not understand significant traumatic injury. The CCT is not going to save your life when one of your limbs has been detached from your body, and within 6 min your gas tank will be empty because you've bled out. The ship's Physician Assistant will be overwhelmed by casualties, and you had better hope you are in a Task Force group with surgical capability and the ability to evacuate casualties. 

But, clearly that's just my opinion based on experience working as a trauma team leader at the Role 3 in Kandahar, as well as serving on both coasts with the Navy.


----------



## PuckChaser

At the end of the day, a TQ weighs nothing to carry around in an easily accessible pocket. Better to have and not need...


----------



## jollyjacktar

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> We will just have to agree to disagree on this topic. I agree that smoke and inhalation injury in confined spaces are a complicating injury. However, every member of the ship's company also needs to be carrying a tourniquet.
> 
> If you understand blast injury, then you understand that the mechanism of injury from explosion - such as an anti-ship missile - is actually very similar. RN ships (remember the Sheffield) in the Falklands, the USS Cole - they are blast and burn. The USS Cole incident would likely have been much worse if they had not had additional medical staff aboard (a Physician Assistant, IIRC). Your comment that all you need is "a few tourniquets onboard" demonstrates you do not understand significant traumatic injury. The CCT is not going to save your life when one of your limbs has been detached from your body, and within 6 min your gas tank will be empty because you've bled out. The ship's Physician Assistant will be overwhelmed by casualties, and you had better hope you are in a Task Force group with surgical capability and the ability to evacuate casualties.
> 
> But, clearly that's just my opinion based on experience working as a trauma team leader at the Role 3 in Kandahar, as well as serving on both coasts with the Navy.



Bang on, too.


----------



## CombatDoc

It was not my intention to drag this thread off-topic from NCDs. However, if the RCN adopts nothing else widely from the CFA toolbox, at least have everyone carry one TQ as PuckChaser suggested.


----------



## Lumber

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> It was not my intention to drag this thread off-topic from NCDs. However, if the RCN adopts nothing else widely from the CFA toolbox, at least have everyone carry one TQ as PuckChaser suggested.



Why can't we just have TQs built into our NCD pants and jackets?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/29/navy_seals_tourniquet_trousers/


----------



## CombatDoc

I suspect because the trial data on effectiveness are not yet available, and also cost. But, perhaps a CTS or LCMM type can chime in. I did like the phrase in the article "the new ziploc bloodspurt-stifling apparel".


----------



## Pusser

Lumber said:
			
		

> Why can't we just have TQs built into our NCD pants and jackets?
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/10/29/navy_seals_tourniquet_trousers/



Looks like a pretty clever idea to me.  Just think of the fun that pranksters could have when their mates fall asleep?  ;D


----------



## MedCorps

ArmyDoc said:
			
		

> But, clearly that's just my opinion based on experience working as a trauma team leader at the Role 3 in Kandahar, as well as serving on both coasts with the Navy.



If you do not trust ArmyDoc (and I would not, being an army guy ranting about things navy <smile>) it is worth a read of the book, The Red and Green Life Machine, by Surg Cdr Rick Jolly, OBE, RN. It talks both about medical support to the RN and land forces during the Falklands war and was a real eye opener (for me) on the topics of casualties sustained on modern ships, the complications of treating these casualties afloat and the even greater complications of evacuating these casualties to surgical care. The story of the casualties from the RFA _Sir Galahad_ alone is enough to keep you up at night. 

Cheers, 

MC


----------



## Blackadder1916

MedCorps said:
			
		

> If do not trust ArmyDoc (and I would not, being an army guy ranting about things navy <smile>) it is worth a read of the book, The Red and Green Life Machine, by Surg Cdr Rick Jolly, OBE, RN. It talks both about medical support to the RN and land forces during the Falklands war and was a real eye opener (for me) on the topics of casualties sustained on modern ships, the complications of treating these casualties afloat and the even greater complications of evacuating these casualties to surgical care. The story of the casualties from the RFA _Sir Galahad_ alone is enough to keep you up at night.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> MC



Jolly's book is a good read.  Back in the 1980s, following the Falklands War, he did a presentation at NDMC.  Interesting stuff.

For those interested, there may be some articles that expand on the preparations for and treatment of naval casualties of that conflict in articles in the 1983 volume of The Journal of the Royal Naval Medical Service.


----------



## jollyjacktar

MedCorps said:
			
		

> If do not trust ArmyDoc (and I would not, being an army guy ranting about things navy <smile>) it is worth a read of the book, The Red and Green Life Machine, by Surg Cdr Rick Jolly, OBE, RN. It talks both about medical support to the RN and land forces during the Falklands war and was a real eye opener (for me) on the topics of casualties sustained on modern ships, the complications of treating these casualties afloat and the even greater complications of evacuating these casualties to surgical care. The story of the casualties from the RFA _Sir Galahad_ alone is enough to keep you up at night.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> MC



In the mid 80's I drove an ambulance out of Rocky Mountain House.  One of my first calls was a 0'dark 30 head on collision call west of the town, near Nordegg.  Coincidentally, which also happened to be where the British Army had their mountain warfare school. 

When we arrived on scene the soldiers had things pretty much under control.  I was a little shook up and was told by the RSM not to worry, he had been on the Sir Galahad as well as multiple tours to NI.  He said "ah, lad if a leg's not off,  just stick a band aid on it, they'll survive".  Totally unflappable.  They also managed to get a brew on while we waited for the emergency room doctor to be brought out.


----------



## Eric Wang

I've heard there is a new uniform coming for the navy and it's currently waiting for approval. One of the POs from my unit said the new uniform will be a black and white camo or something. Is this true? If it is, are there any pictures of it online?


----------



## Lightguns

Good rumour, should go far, racial camo.......


----------



## Eland2

Eric16 said:
			
		

> I've heard there is a new uniform coming for the navy and it's currently waiting for approval. One of the POs from my unit said the new uniform will be a black and white camo or something. Is this true? If it is, are there any pictures of it online?



If this is true, it might well be based on a prototype naval combat dress ensemble that was released for consideration last year, like the one shown in the picture, with a camouflage pattern instead of an all-black colour.


----------



## dapaterson

Bah.  We need one of HMCS to be designated as a Highland unit.  Just think: stokers in kilts.


----------



## Blackadder1916

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Bah.  We need one of HMCS to be designated as a Highland unit.  Just think:* stokers in kilts.*



Well, it will make access to one the three naval traditions easier.


----------



## Eland2

If a camouflage-type NCD ensemble is released, I wonder if it will be a CADPAT pattern or something else, maybe something closer to what the Royal Australian Navy have.


----------



## mariomike

Eland2 said:
			
		

> If a camouflage-type NCD ensemble is released, I wonder if it will be a CADPAT pattern or something else, maybe something closer to what the Royal Australian Navy have.



See also,

NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD)
https://army.ca/forums/threads/49086.150.html
7 pages.

NCD
https://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Aarmy.ca+ncd&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=AuitWIbEFKeC8QeYy57oCQ&gws_rd=ssl#


----------



## CombatDoc

Eric16 said:
			
		

> I've heard there is a new uniform coming for the navy and it's currently waiting for approval. One of the POs from my unit said the new uniform will be a black and white camo or something. Is this true? If it is, are there any pictures of it online?


I believe the proper name would be "Canadian Salt & Pepper pattern" or CANSAP for short. ;D


----------



## Blackadder1916

Eric16 said:
			
		

> . . .  the new uniform will be a black and white camo or something. . . .



Something . . . like this?


----------



## Underway

I was thinking more of a dalmatian or zebra print myself.


----------



## Ping Monkey

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Something . . . like this?



That is sharp.  Zebra print looks a little more dapper though.


----------



## Pusser

The new NCD will likely be the same cut as the Army's combat clothing, but in a monochrome (dark blue), fire-retardant material.  Even the Americans are getting rid of their "aquaflage."


----------



## cavalryman

Underway said:
			
		

> I was thinking more of a dalmatian or zebra print myself.


Definitely dalmatian for those sea dogs  [


----------



## dimsum

Pusser said:
			
		

> The new NCD will likely be the same cut as the Army's combat clothing, but in a monochrome (dark blue), fire-retardant material.  Even the Americans are getting rid of their "aquaflage."



I thought it was decided already for the RCN as what you said above?  The USN is getting rid of the Blueberries (Type I) and so all USN folks will wear their green version (Type III) that looks a little like TW CADPAT from afar...but not onboard ship, where they'll have dark blue coveralls.  So, I'm not really sure how they were saving any money in the end aside from optics (and fashion).

Incidentally, if the shirt is zippered (like the US Army version that started all of this) and available in olive drab, it'd be a good replacement for the current 2-piece flying suit top.


----------



## Stoker

The new Naval combats won't be camo, in fact it may not even be the style that was published. It is a number of years away at this point.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> The new Naval combats won't be camo, in fact it may not even be the style that was published. It is a number of years away at this point.



Sooo, kind of like new ships, huh?  ;D


----------



## Stoker

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Sooo, kind of like new ships, huh?  ;D



There's a good possibility that the extra bling on the NCD's is going away, units don't want to pay for it.


----------



## Navy_Pete

In a quasi related note, has anyone gotten a new navy tunic recently?

I had to get a new one when I realized the old one was tight enough it was making my arms numb; new one showed up in the mail and it looks cheap as a Hamilton blind date.  Fabric is weirdly shiny and it has the really obvious coarse stitching.  Shouldn't be surprised given the quality of the shirts and pants now I guess, but still.

Funnily enough couldn't get a bigger size by increasing the chest/shoulder measurements; when went to manually select a size apparently I would have had to make the waist bigger.... ???

Based on the clothes I keep getting, I can't help but think the naval tailors use a dummy shaped like this; /\   I think they've gotten the vee shape inverted somewhere!


----------



## donaldk

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> There's a good possibility that the extra bling on the NCD's is going away, units don't want to pay for it.



Also if you aren't under the RCN L1 org (e.g. FELEX Det, NDQAR, etc), base supply isn't issuing the latest rev of NCD jackets to them... so uptake to the current 'dress reg' hastily-without-fore-thought released on the street is being snubbed.  As three of my CPO2s that out... the budget allotment to get the required additional adornments was swiftly reallocated to more PP&S.  Going to be interesting at my next posting when the question comes why I didn't get the good stuff (not really going to matter as I'll be in N3B/N3Cs more often than not which haven't changes for the last 20 years).

Next time the navy dress committee dreams up a ******* dress change order/directive they ought to make sure CFSS is stocked and ready to distribute it properly before going 'live' (NAVGEN message release).  I like the latest last minute one for the metal SSI pin in place of the cloth, with only two weeks notice before BOA parade - wonder how this panned out?


----------



## Halifax Tar

donaldk said:
			
		

> Next time the navy dress committee dreams up a ******* dress change order/directive they ought to make sure CFSS is stocked and ready to distribute it properly before going 'live' (NAVGEN message release).  I like the latest last minute one for the metal SSI pin in place of the cloth, with only two weeks notice before BOA parade - wonder how this panned out?


?
You aren't actually inferring that he RCN would make decisions without input or the understanding of the logistics, are you ?


----------



## Lumber

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> In a quasi related note, has anyone gotten a new navy tunic recently?
> 
> I had to get a new one when I realized the old one was tight enough it was making my arms numb; new one showed up in the mail and it looks cheap as a Hamilton blind date.



My face when I'm a Hamilton native:


----------



## Lumber

donaldk said:
			
		

> I like the latest last minute one for the metal SSI pin in place of the cloth, with only two weeks notice before BOA parade - wonder how this panned out?



Could have been a lot worse; it's really easy to take off the cloth and put on the metal. Imagine if it had been the other way around!


----------



## Stoker

What we're seeing at my unit is that we are getting our NAVY/MARINE name tapes, flags and even a embroidered flat SSI at a place in Dartmouth and paying out of pocket. None of this is really official either with many around the yard wearing different items.


----------



## Lumber

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> What we're seeing at my unit is that we are getting our NAVY/MARINE name tapes, flags and even a embroidered flat SSI at a place in Dartmouth and paying out of pocket. None of this is really official either with many around the yard wearing different items.



They released orders in NAVRES indicating that that the "new" RCN ball cap has been approved, and that units are not to have a mix of new and old (implying that as soon as you start getting new hats, you need to replace EVERYONE's ball caps at the same time). While a few (including on here) have shown me some suppliers who are producing a cotton/polyester mix, which is different form the old 100% cotton ball caps, I have yet to see anything OFFICIAL that says "This is what the new ball cap is. This is what it looks like. This is what it is made up." There was also talk of putting the CNE on the back of the new ball-caps. Is that part of the "approved" "new" RCN ball cap?


----------



## Halifax Tar

CNE ?


----------



## Lumber

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> CNE ?



Canadian Naval Ensign.


----------



## IceBlue

donaldk said:
			
		

> Next time the navy dress committee dreams up a ******* dress change order/directive they ought to make sure CFSS is stocked and ready to distribute it properly before going 'live' (NAVGEN message release).  I like the latest last minute one for the metal SSI pin in place of the cloth, with only two weeks notice before BOA parade - wonder how this panned out?



Where would a person find this notice on the metal SSI? I have looked through the 2017 NAVGENS and did not see it there.


----------



## Lumber

Big Spoon said:
			
		

> Where would a person find this notice on the metal SSI? I have looked through the 2017 NAVGENS and did not see it there.



It was an email from the RCN Chief, and apparently a CANFORGEN is to be released shortly.


----------



## IceBlue

Lumber said:
			
		

> It was an email from the RCN Chief, and apparently a CANFORGEN is to be released shortly.



Thanks for the help, just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything. Any word on if this is going to impact those of us Airforce types that have gone to sea?


----------



## FSTO

Big Spoon said:
			
		

> Thanks for the help, just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything. Any word on if this is going to impact those of us Airforce types that have gone to sea?



AKIAK the RCAF and ARMY types will remain with the cloth pins.

This directive has been very poorly implemented.


----------



## jollyjacktar

That's what we're informed.  The Air Force and Army will continue to use the cloth SSI as it worn on the sleeve vs chest.


----------



## Pusser

Lumber said:
			
		

> Canadian Naval Ensign.



Yeah, we couldn't use an internationally recognized term used by other Commonwealth navies, like "White Ensign" or even "Canadian White Ensign.  Instead, we had to name it after a dog and pony show in Toronto...


----------



## Lumber

Pusser said:
			
		

> Yeah, we couldn't use an internationally recognized term used by other Commonwealth navies, like "White Ensign" or even "Canadian White Ensign.  Instead, we had to name it after a dog and pony show in Toronto...



Don't forget about the BFE...


----------



## daftandbarmy

Lumber said:
			
		

> Canadian Naval Ensign.



How festive.

If they come out with one specifically for the West Coast Navy, would it be abbreviated 'PNE'?


----------



## Lumber

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> How festive.
> 
> If they come out with one specifically for the West Coast Navy, would it be abbreviated 'PNE'?



You mean the TSNE?


----------



## rotrhed

FSTO said:
			
		

> AKIAK the RCAF and ARMY types will remain with the cloth pins.
> 
> This directive has been very poorly implemented.



And don't forget, the RCAF is switching from light blue background badges to the dark blue (black) background badges! So all those soon to be surplus RCN SSIs will start filtering down to AF supply and we can take our tunics in again for some sewing.

Why you ask?  Even the tailor doesn't know for certain! But there was mention about someone wanting the RCAF SSI background to match the shoulder tabs and wings.  Sigh.


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View

Hey it's alright, CDS said we don't need the money. So we'll be ok!


----------



## Sub_Guy

bigzoomie said:
			
		

> Why you ask?  Even the tailor doesn't know for certain! But there was mention about someone wanting the RCAF SSI background to match the shoulder tabs and wings.  Sigh.



It looks better (it stands out).  I know that's not a good reason, but it's the main reason.

CWO West has been sporting the RCN SSI badge for over a year now.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

It stands out quite well, IMO, and the black background does suit more with the RCAF badges/rank.  (He also has the right *new* Wings on now these days too)


----------



## Navy_Pete

Lumber said:
			
		

> My face when I'm a Hamilton native:



Haha, me too, otherwise I wouldn't make the cracks.  Running joke is I joined the Navy to get out of Hamilton.  Totally different city now though from when I grew up there.


----------



## Lumber

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Haha, me too, otherwise I wouldn't make the cracks.  Running joke is I joined the Navy to get out of Hamilton.  Totally different city now though from when I grew up there.



I know, right? You can actually recommend to out if towners to go visit James St, North! 

But, they still don't know that there's a 160 sailors working in Hamilton. 

Or upward of a 5-600 soldiers... 

Or that Canada even has a Navy..


----------



## dimsum

Lumber said:
			
		

> But, they still don't know that there's a 160 sailors working in Hamilton Victoria outside Dockyard.
> 
> Or upward of a 5-600 soldiers...
> 
> Or that Canada even has a Navy..



FTFY.


----------



## Calvillo

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> What we're seeing at my unit is that we are getting our NAVY/MARINE name tapes, flags and even a embroidered flat SSI at a place in Dartmouth and paying out of pocket. None of this is really official either with many around the yard wearing different items.



My question is that how many times does one need to assert that one works with the Naval Forces of Canada? Let us see the jacket. There is the anchor on the name tape, NAVY / MARINE tape with maple leaf in the middle, Naval Ensign (which design includes the Canadian flag) on the shoulder, Canadian flag on its own on the upper shoulder, and the word CANADA on both slip-ons.


----------



## Monsoon

Calvillo said:
			
		

> My question is that how many times does one need to assert that one works with the Naval Forces of Canada? Let us see the jacket. There is the anchor on the name tape, NAVY / MARINE tape with maple leaf in the middle, Naval Ensign (which design includes the Canadian flag) on the shoulder, Canadian flag on its own on the upper shoulder, and the word CANADA on both slip-ons.


When your average Canadian becomes aware of the fact that Canada has a navy, I suppose the work will be done. In a meantime, an ensign on the uniform isn't going to kill anyone.


----------



## OceanBonfire

https://twitter.com/Comd_RCN/status/927942286456930305








https://twitter.com/Comd_RCN/status/929970822877343744








https://twitter.com/Comd_RCN/status/929981137794998272


----------



## Infanteer

Look pretty slick to me.


----------



## captloadie

I especially love the large easy to read NAVY/MARINE name plate. I  don't know how we'd tell what element their from without it.


----------



## kratz

I don't like the need for it. For what it is, looks good.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Look pretty slick to me.


Really? Makes me want to puke.

I mean, do you really need an anchor after your name on the name tag, then the words Navy * Marine on the other side, right near a huge Canadian white ensign (which identify you as Navy by itself) and then the RCN command badge below that??? (I know - that's because they ARE the command team, this last one would be your ship's/unit badge normally - but really for the RCN command team: leave the damn thing blank please.)

And, seriously, is he actually arm wrestling that poor Australian Able Seaman  :facepalm:


----------



## Ostrozac

captloadie said:
			
		

> I especially love the large easy to read NAVY/MARINE name plate. I  don't know how we'd tell what element their from without it.



Looking forward to the large ARMY/ARMEE and larger AIR FORCE/AVIATION badges for purple tradesmen that are posted to ships. That should be nicely confusing for everyone.


----------



## FSTO

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Really? Makes me want to puke.
> 
> I mean, do you really need an anchor after your name on the name tag, then the words Navy * Marine on the other side, right near a huge Canadian white ensign (which identify you as Navy by itself) and then the RCN command badge below that??? (I know - that's because they ARE the command team, this last one would be your ship's/unit badge normally - but really for the RCN command team: leave the damn thing blank please.)
> 
> And, seriously, is he actually arm wrestling that poor Australian Able Seaman  :facepalm:



This has really gone off the rails. These are designed for shipboard use so it should have the basics. Your name, your trade (for the hands) and the ships crest. Thats it. (and of course your Rank as pointed out by OGBD below)
And you shouldn't need to wear it off the Base/Dockyard and especially if you are working in an air conditioned office FFS.


----------



## kratz

If the uniform doesn't look army most Canadians automatically assume some 
other public service. Due to the dark colours: police, security guard, are better than the previous 
NCDs and thought of as bus conductors or milk men.

Maritime blindness, is why we need these big badges. Personal experience with other groups,
the public will still not care.

No, it should never have been walking out dress.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

I am with FSTO, with one small exception: we need rank badge on top of what he indicates.

And absolutely yes: shipboard/dockyard wear only.

All the other extra bling is armyness creeping in.  ;D


----------



## Ping Monkey

Every time I see new uniform with even more patches than the last, I become more convinced that the T.G.I.Friday's manager from Office Space now has a seat on the CAF Dress Committee.   :facepalm:


----------



## jollyjacktar

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Really? Makes me want to puke.
> 
> I mean, do you really need an anchor after your name on the name tag, then the words Navy * Marine on the other side, right near a huge Canadian white ensign (which identify you as Navy by itself) and then the RCN command badge below that??? (I know - that's because they ARE the command team, this last one would be your ship's/unit badge normally - but really for the RCN command team: leave the damn thing blank please.)
> 
> And, seriously, is he actually arm wrestling that poor Australian Able Seaman  :facepalm:


Everybody has something next to their name respective of if they're navy, army or air force.  Has been so for a long time now.  I'm ok with that.  The navy marine tag is hideous to my eyes and not necessary.  Also, not keen on the jacket going by the wayside, it's a good extra layer of FR.  At least the present shirt will be gone, the new shirt is better.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Wait! There's no jacket? Is there a sweater, or on cool days personnel on the upper deck will have to go straight from only a shirt on to wearing the floater jackets?


----------



## jollyjacktar

There is a cunning plan l hear to get a fleece that's FR and g2g for shipboard use.  But essentially, yes the jacket is gone.  The shirt and tee shirt will be considered a second layer of clothing equal.


----------



## Underway

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Wait! There's no jacket? Is there a sweater, or on cool days personnel on the upper deck will have to go straight from only a shirt on to wearing the floater jackets?



Black rain jackets.  Same as the army folks.


----------



## dimsum

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> And, seriously, is he actually arm wrestling that poor Australian Able Seaman  :facepalm:



She's Kiwi, but yeah.  Still, the fact that you don't need to tuck it in is a point in my books.  The bling can go though.


----------



## FSTO

Underway said:
			
		

> Black rain jackets.  Same as the army folks.



AKAIK it wont be the black coats we were issued a couple of years ago. Do you mean the dark blue replacement for the Yellow Canary Suits?


----------



## Infanteer

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Really? Makes me want to puke.



I don't care for the patches, and the Army uniforms look equally as silly, but the uniform itself looks pretty good to me.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Underway said:
			
		

> Black rain jackets.  Same as the army folks.



Those are the CCR...converged CADPAT raingear, Army and RCAF get them issued.  Not a bad piece of kit really.

Everyone is going patch crazy there days it seems.  And bling crazy in DEUs.  Forge caps, shoulder ranks etc and seemingly it's starting at the top and trickling down...

https://www.facebook.com/RCAFAssociationARC/photos/a.123415204515987.1073741829.122696064587901/727521357438699/?type=3&theater


----------



## jollyjacktar

The black rain gear is top notch.  I don't have a single bad comment except l can't keep it when l release.  The new shipboard rain gear came out as l was leaving the coast but l understand it's fantastic too.  Almost anything is compared to the canary suit.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Dimsum said:
			
		

> She's Kiwi, but yeah.



If she's Kiwi, Dimsum, those stars on the Southern Cross of her flag look pretty white too me, not red. 

Did you guys switch flags around?  ;D


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Also, while I don't have any qualms about the rain gear in and of itself, it's pretty "sweaty" if you know what I mean. We tend to work in a pretty  humid environment when there is no rain and I would say about 50% of the time, it is in temperatures that don't warrant wearing winter gear, such as the Floater jackets. When you actually work on deck, it' is therefore cool, but sweaty, except for CPO's and officers who don't have to do the physical work deck hands actually do, but wearing a rain jacket would be overly warm for actual deck crew, while the single shirt over T-shirt would be just on the cool side. You need that sort of intermediate ( I call it off-season) extra layer: just enough but not too much, and fully breathing. 

For those who don't know, BTW, this is exactly the reason "polar fleece" was invented, and guess for whom: The Norwegian Navy.


----------



## dimsum

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> If she's Kiwi, Dimsum, those stars on the Southern Cross of her flag look pretty white too me, not red.
> 
> Did you guys switch flags around?  ;D



Maybe it's the light, but she is most definitely Kiwi.  The RAN uniforms are camouflage and they wear their Naval Jack, not the Australian National Flag, on their shoulder.  The second picture are RNZN folks.












As an aside, just be glad that we didn't decide to follow the RAN in NCD fashion  :-X


----------



## Lumber

kratz said:
			
		

> If the uniform doesn't look army most Canadians automatically assume some
> other public service. Due to the dark colours: police, security guard, are better than the previous
> NCDs and thought of as bus conductors or milk men.
> 
> Maritime blindness, is why we need these big badges. Personal experience with other groups,
> the public will still not care.
> 
> No, it should never have been walking out dress.



How much do you want to bet that joe-public sees the "Navy/Marine" tape and immediately assumes the person he is talking to is a "Marine"? 

"Semper-Fi, dude!"


----------



## Journeyman

Do shirts with come with different sized velcro if you're a submariner or a clearance diver?  That patch works for the 'escargot fork & sushi' dive badge but is too narrow for the wider dolphins.  op:



As an aside, I just read the pre-deployment PT test thread before this one, and saw all the "we're Navy -- f*ck you Army" comments.  Well, this uniform just screams *NAVY* (in both languages), and folks _still_  aren't happy.   ;D


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Of course not, Lumber!

Every Canadian would instantly know that if such was the case, the tape would read "Marines * Fusilier marin".

 :rofl:


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Journeyman said:
			
		

> As an aside, I just read the pre-deployment PT test thread before this one, and saw all the "we're Navy -- **** you Army" comments.  Well, this uniform just screams *NAVY* (in both languages), and folks _still_  aren't happy.   ;D



Don't get us wrong, Journeyman. I don't think anyone has any qualms about the colour or the styling of the uniform. What we have reservations about is the twenty-thousand square acres of  patches and bling that is (1) meaningless to us at sea; and (2) repeat the same "message" over and over.

Seaman are by nature practical and succinct people.If the uniform "screams" Navy, then why bother to actually write it on the uniform? 

There are three pieces of information that seaman need to know about each other when they meet: What is this person's rank, trade and what unit is she from. The actual name is a good add on, and finally, for the public at large, which country is this seaman from. And all of these can be done in a more discreet fashion.

As for my other surprise, the lack of sweater/jacket, it is not a comment against the uniform itself, it is just that for a very important part of the year (about 50%), we work on the upper decks in temperatures that make it a little cool for just a shirt over T-shirt, but is too warm for an actual weather jacket such as the floater jackets we have for full winter temperatures. So I was surprised they didn't retain some form of intermediate piece of clothing.


----------



## Lumber

Plus, now how am I supposed to drive Sea Training nuts with my popped collar?


----------



## dimsum

Lumber said:
			
		

> Plus, now how am I supposed to drive Sea Training nuts with my popped collar?



...they still care?  ~10 years ago, I had my jacket collar up (I don't think I ever wore it down) and the (Esquimalt) Red Hat Crew never cared.


----------



## Journeyman

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> What we have reservations about is the twenty-thousand square acres of  patches and bling that is (1) meaningless to us at sea; and (2) repeat the same "message" over and over.


Complete agreement;  the boyscout badges are fine on DEU and Mess Kit, but don't belong on CADPAT/NCD.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Not enough NAVY/MARINE stuff on them.... ;D


----------



## Blackadder1916

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> There are three pieces of information that seaman need to know about each other when they meet: What is this person's rank, trade and what unit is she from. The actual name is a good add on, and finally, for the public at large, which country is this seaman from. And all of these can be done in a more discreet fashion.



Maybe I very outdated and, of course, very limited in my experience on Canadian naval vessels (a brief time in _Provider_ with 3 PPCLI when being transported to San Diego for Ex KERNAL POTLACH IN 1979).  However, back then the Navy types seemed to place much importance in having a name tape sewn above the right back pocket of their work dress trousers.  I'll leave the usual snide comments about the reason to others.  Does the Navy still do this and is there a velcro patch appropriately placed on the trousers of this updated rig to accommodate a name tape (with of course the appropriate environmental emblem - you have to be sure the individual was Navy before making a move  :tsktsk


----------



## FSTO

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Maybe I very outdated and, of course, very limited in my experience on Canadian naval vessels (a brief time in _Provider_ with 3 PPCLI when being transported to San Diego for Ex KERNAL POTLACH IN 1979).  However, back then the Navy types seemed to place much importance in having a name tape sewn above the right back pocket of their work dress trousers.  I'll leave the usual snide comments about the reason to others.  Does the Navy still do this and is there a velcro patch appropriately placed on the trousers of this updated rig to accommodate a name tape (with of course the appropriate environmental emblem - you have to be sure the individual was Navy before making a move  :tsktsk



The name tap on the pants and shirt was for the ship's laundry. Easier to sort and make sure the sailors got back their correct shirt and pants from the laundry.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Blackadder, the explanation is very mundane: Laundry (or as we say in the Navy, dhoby).

The uniforms are mass cleaned at a centralized laundry facility, so one member of a given mess would collect all shipboard uniforms at set intervals (daily, every second day, etc.) from his mess. They would then be centrally washed, dried and pressed, then re-packaged by mess deck folded in such a way as to show the seaman's name on top to be picked up by the mess rep. 

So we had specific places to identify all of our work clothes subject to such centralized laundry process.


----------



## NavalMoose

Funny how it's always the Pongo types that suggest name tapes on naval uniforms may be related to the lifting of shirts. ;D


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Oooooooh! Now I understand why Dimsum thought that not having to tuck the shirt in was a plus.  ;D


----------



## Underway

FSTO said:
			
		

> AKAIK it wont be the black coats we were issued a couple of years ago. Do you mean the dark blue replacement for the Yellow Canary Suits?



I kinda meant both.  Walking out dress would be the new black rain jacket which is perhaps the nicest piece of kit we are issued (in contention with the Gerber and the zipper sided sea boots).  Lots are wearing that in place of the CANNEX jacket and as a light winter jacket. Blue raingear for at sea is excellent.  Just last friday I was out in the cold rain for 2-3 hours and it worked a charm.  Pants too.  When it gets old it starts absorbing a bit of moisture but there is probably a treatment, spray or wash to fix that.  Worse case it "rips" and you get a new issue.

For the new uniform my take:
As far as the patches the reasoning seems to be to match the army setup.  Nametag, rank same place.  Ensign same place on the left arm with the unit badge there as well.  Right arm is for your mission/operation badge.  So for example recently you might have seen HMCS MONTREAL have X SHIP badges on the right arm for their recent work.  This is all pretty standard stuff on previous NCD's with the added addition of the mission badge.  

The NAVY/MARINE label is relatively common in many navies.  UK, AUS, NZ, US, etc... all have a navy identifier and have for years.  Being an ex-reservist this is important as interacting with landlocked civies who didn't recognize a naval uniform was painful.  Only time I was ever even closely identified was when I was in my whites and someone asked me if I was a cruise ship captain.  Which after years of being mistaken for a cop, comissionaire or a pilot was great.

As for the sea service insignia I could leave it.  Means nothing except for another way to differentiate, divide and silently judge your peers, and to increase the chance we are mistaken for a formula one driver with all that advertizing.


----------



## Edward Campbell

My only comment ...


----------



## Infanteer

Actually, I'm not sure about that.  The service/ceremonial dress, including the tailoring, generally costs in the hundreds of dollars.  The cost of an Army Combat uniform (and I assume the new NCD is similar) is about 100 bucks, give or take (going off memory here).  The sword generally costs more than the combat uniform, the patches, and the boots.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm not sure about that.  The service/ceremonial dress, including the tailoring, generally costs in the hundreds of dollars.  The cost of an Army Combat uniform (and I assume the new NCD is similar) is about 100 bucks, give or take (going off memory here).  The sword generally costs more than the combat uniform, the patches, and the boots.


I expect the fancy duds with toad sticker will indeed be more costly than NDC.  But can you imagine the sight of all of us swanning around the office in fancy duds and toad stickers?  It might make for some interesting interpersonal communications around here if everybody had a toad sticker to wave about.


----------



## kratz

[quote author=E.R. Campbell]
My only comment ...
[/quote]

32 years service: RCN Commander VADM Lloyd, Combat dress
60 Years+ service: HRH Prince Philip, multiple sources. Dress Uniform


----------



## NavalMoose

kratz said:
			
		

> 32 years service: RCN Commander VADM Lloyd, Combat dress
> 60 Years+ service: HRH Prince Philip, multiple sources. Dress Uniform



Not sure if you were serious, but that's not Phil the Greek in dress uniform ;D


----------



## Pencil Tech

kratz said:
			
		

> 32 years service: RCN Commander VADM Lloyd, Combat dress
> 60 Years+ service: HRH Prince Philip, multiple sources. Dress Uniform



Sorry that isn't Prince Philip. It's Admiral Sir Jonathan Band, former First Sea Lord, whilst wearing rank of Vice-Admiral.


----------



## Pusser

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm not sure about that.  The service/ceremonial dress, including the tailoring, generally costs in the hundreds of dollars.  The cost of an Army Combat uniform (and I assume the new NCD is similar) is about 100 bucks, give or take (going off memory here).  The sword generally costs more than the combat uniform, the patches, and the boots.



That particular full dress uniform does indeed cost more than NCD.  However, the CAF standard No 3 dress is significantly cheaper than BOTH of the uniforms shown.  No 3 (service dress) costs about $100-$200 (depending on what is actually worn vice the $300-$400 for NCD.  It is worth noting that getting rid of the blue NCD shirt may result in a cost savings as that is about $75 on its own.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Thanks for the correct costs ... *I was wrong*. I was, actually being more than just a bit hyperbolic, especially when I mentioned the sword, but my point is that NCD, flight suits and army CADPAT are too expensive to be worn as day-to-day dress by "office workers" ~ a group that seems to grow with each passing day.


----------



## Stoker

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> My only comment ...




So the picture you posted above was taken on HMCS Montreal currently deployed, its on a ship so what would you have him wear? Now that being said I have seen one photo of him in Ottawa with it on as well. Would it be plausible that he as the Commander of the RCN is publicizing the new uniform? Seems likely to me as the majority of photos of him ashore he is either wearing whites or S&P's.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> Sorry that isn't Prince Philip. It's Admiral Sir Jonathan Band, former First Sea Lord, whilst wearing rank of Vice-Admiral.



Actually no, again.  It's VAdm Sir Adrian Johns in his fancy navy suit during the ceremony installing him as Governor of Gibraltar.

This is Adm Band in his monkey suit . . . along with the other two chiefs in their's.


----------



## dimsum

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Actually no, again.  It's VAdm Sir Adrian Johns in his fancy navy suit during the ceremony installing him as Governor of Gibraltar.
> 
> This is Adm Band in his monkey suit . . . along with the other two chiefs in their's.



Of *course* the RAF has to look wildly different than the RN and Army.   8)


----------



## Loachman

First Sea Lord, First Land Lord, and Lord of the Flies - but I cannot remember who came up with that one.


----------



## kratz

Thank you NavalMoose and Pencil Tech,

I see so many First Sea Lord's, they all "look the same".  Thank you.

ff topic:


----------



## Pencil Tech

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Actually no, again.  It's VAdm Sir Adrian Johns in his fancy navy suit during the ceremony installing him as Governor of Gibraltar.
> 
> This is Adm Band in his monkey suit . . . along with the other two chiefs in their's.



I stand corrected.


----------



## hawke1759

Is there a timeline on when the new fancy duds will be rolled out to the fleet and us poor land-based sailors?


----------



## Stoker

hawke1759 said:
			
		

> Is there a timeline on when the new fancy duds will be rolled out to the fleet and us poor land-based sailors?



I head that the new NCD's will be rolled out by this summer however the Base Chief recently at a morning coffee briefed everyone in attendance that it may be several years. Who really knows.


----------



## garb811

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I head that the new NCD's will be rolled out by this summer however the Base Chief recently at a morning coffee briefed everyone in attendance that it may be several years. Who really knows.


Pray it doesn't happen the same way they've rolled out the CADPAT ICU.  You'll be mixing and matching for the next decade otherwise...


----------



## Nfld Sapper

garb811 said:
			
		

> Pray it doesn't happen the same way they've rolled out the CADPAT ICU.  You'll be mixing and matching for the next decade otherwise...



Or longer.... ;D


----------



## dapaterson

garb811 said:
			
		

> Pray it doesn't happen the same way they've rolled out the CADPAT ICU.  You'll be mixing and matching for the next decade otherwise...



You'd rather see the army throw away millions of dollars worth of serviceable field clothing because it offends your fashion sense?


----------



## kratz

[quote author=dapaterson]
You'd rather see the army Naval Dress committee throw away millions of dollars worth of serviceable field clothing because it offends your their fashion sense?
[/quote]

FTFY. Yes. Yes, they would...if they could justify it.  :facepalm:


----------



## PuckChaser

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You'd rather see the army throw away millions of dollars worth of serviceable field clothing because it offends your fashion sense?


Why not? They did it with DEU tunics for the officers.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Would it be plausible that he as the Commander of the RCN is publicizing the new uniform?



I wouldn't doubt this;  years ago, around the early 2000s, the Army had changed it's rank slip-ons for CADPAT back to the high vis ones.  The only people getting them initially was the high paid help;  Area Commander and CWO, etc.

The reasoning given when we asked "why isn't everyone getting these before people start wearing them" was "so the troops will get used to them".

 :


----------



## dapaterson

Hi-vis on a camouflage uniform would seem to be counter-intuitive.

Particularly in the centre of mass.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Yet...we do it!


----------



## garb811

dapaterson said:
			
		

> You'd rather see the army throw away millions of dollars worth of serviceable field clothing because it offends your fashion sense?


Who said anything about throwing serviceable items away?


----------



## dapaterson

Sorry - I misunderstood your post then.  Thought you were suggesting we replace all the CADPAT with ICU.


----------



## Furniture

The thing I find somewhat amusing about the complaints are that only one person has mentioned a potential operational impact from the new uniforms, everybody else seems to be complaining because they don't like the badges. The badge complaints seem to be coming from people that will likely never wear the uniform, and are either retired or close to it. As I said before, the current NCDs don't scream navy at best they indicate security/repair staff. At least the new uniforms with the extra "bling" look military, even if it's modern military and not 1960's "proper navy" uniforms. 

As to the potential loss of a fire resistant layer, if they extra layers(the jacket is lined with Nomex too, making it two by itself) were that important the FFs and HTs would have been carrying them all along. It's a loss of protection, but one that was apparently already deemed acceptable many years ago. 

One thing I don't recall seeing mentioned is that new shirt will remove the need for new blue NCD shirts to be replaced every 6 months because the collar has worn out.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Weatherdog, that is a point however the tee shirt was deemed to be the second layer.  I personally would like jacket or equivalent to remain as tee shirts are short sleeved so less coverage down the arms.  Otherwise l like the new NCD, bling aside.  

Don't forget the FF/HT would be closed up in Bunker gear during emergency/action/flying stations anyhow.  I expect the non-jacket issue would stem from the FF coming from the Wing Halls where they would be in Bunker anyhow at a scene, so standard practices.


----------



## Furniture

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Weatherdog, that is a point however the tee shirt was deemed to be the second layer.  I personally would like jacket or equivalent to remain as tee shirts are short sleeved so less coverage down the arms.  Otherwise l like the new NCD, bling aside.
> 
> Don't forget the FF/HT would be closed up in Bunker gear during emergency/action/flying stations anyhow.  I expect the non-jacket issue would stem from the FF coming from the Wing Halls where they would be in Bunker anyhow at a scene, so standard practices.



Agreed the tee shirt isn't an ideal second layer, but at the same time neither are tightie whities, boxers, thongs, etc.. There needs to be a reasonable balance between comfort and protection. I personally loved the NCD jacket as an intermediate layer, and am slightly sad to see it going. Though the chances I'll get a chance to get back to sea seem to be slipping away, so it's likely not going to have any impact on me.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Yes, my sailing days are done too.  I'm thinking of the collective and practicality for those who will be sailing.  I do hear they're looking at a FR fleece jacket, if possible, that would provide the comfort and protection presently provided by the jacket.  They need something for the intermediate range of temperatures.


----------



## FSTO

Remember the air force flight jacket that every NWO/MARS would sell their mother for? That would work.

There was an urban myth that a warehouse in Moncton had tri-walls full of Pre 1968 RCN flight jackets (still in the packing plastic) that were destroyed early in the 70's. Sad.


----------



## jollyjacktar

It wouldn't surprise me in the least.  When we were de-storing PRE in 03, they came across a dozen NIB Stanley Hand Planes marked with RCN from 1958.  And believe it or not they ran across some Bonnie parts not too long ago in Halifax.  Some weird shit still out there.


----------



## Inspir

Saw this earlier today.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I am hopeful but not holding my breath the RCAF will authorize ball caps for wear as head dress in operational clothing as well.  It’s what most of us wear when we are away anyways...


----------



## FSTO

Inspir said:
			
		

> Saw this earlier today.



Still too many badges, but on the plus side at least a person can roll up the sleeves.


----------



## jollyjacktar

All those badges....looks ridiculous.   :facepalm:


----------



## Eaglelord17

Chest ranks are a dumb idea for the Navy if it is operational dress, most the time if they are operators you need to be able to look at their shoulders as their front is to the computers.


----------



## NavalMoose

All the badges etc do seem a bit much in my opinion


----------



## a_majoor

Reminds me of a Duffleblog "headline": "Navy goes 6 months without new uniform".

Not clear what advantages this new uniform offers unless it is made of flame resistant NOMEX or something.


----------



## jollyjacktar

The present NCD are FR.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Inspir said:
			
		

> Saw this earlier today.



4 questions

1.  Is it normal for the command badge to be on the left and the 'ships badge' to be on the right?  Curious as we are the opposite.  I wear my Sqn heraldic crest on the right, and my crew badge on the left...our "order of precedence" is right then left.  IMPACT was the ATF-I badge on the right, Det badge on the left.  It looks to me like the RCN badge is on the left in the pic and...I don't know what the one of the right is.

2.  Someone mentioned that it isn't the best idea to have rank on the chest, better on the shoulders.  If so...why the move then?  

3.  What is the normal standard for rolled sleeves;  both them have it done differently in the pic.  

4.  Why didn't they make the specialty badge (or proper RCN name for it) patch big enough for all the possible ones;  like jump wings, etc?  Or does the Navy only allow stuff like Ships Diver on the op dress?


----------



## Navy_Pete

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The present NCD are FR.



There is videos of an old set of the previous NCDs (made with NOMEX) being tested for their flame resistance.  They are set up on a dummy with essentially four flame throwers (one on each corner of a square) and run through a number of tests.  they did them with various layers, and with/without the flash hood and gloves (which aren't actually FR).

It's pretty crazy to watch, but they found that if you had on a shirt, the shirt (with sleeves down) and the jacket over top, you could come away with getting smashed for several seconds with four giant jet flames with minimal burns on the covered areas (some first/second degree where the clothing hung and there is normally a lot of direct contact, so you get thermal conduction despite the FR).

There is no way that current uniform would perform as well even if it's the same fabric, as it seems to be missing the jacket all together.  Fun fact, the terrible cut on the clothing that gives tonnes of room for fat buggers is actually really good for preventing burns, as the hugely excessive amounts of fabric that cause the uniforms to hang off you like an ugly date creates a bunch of insulating air pockets.

Does anyone know if this will become the work dress, or will there be coveralls for people to wear then they go down to the spaces?  On a practical sense I can't see the white ensign looking good for long as it will quickly get covered in oil and dirt for anyone that works, or even goes through the spaces and brushes up against things during rounds.


----------



## dimsum

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Someone mentioned that it isn't the best idea to have rank on the chest, better on the shoulders.  If so...why the move then?



The top is a flame resistant navy blue version of the new CADPAT.


----------



## Stoker

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 4 questions
> 
> 1.  Is it normal for the command badge to be on the left and the 'ships badge' to be on the right?  Curious as we are the opposite.  I wear my Sqn heraldic crest on the right, and my crew badge on the left...our "order of precedence" is right then left.  IMPACT was the ATF-I badge on the right, Det badge on the left.  It looks to me like the RCN badge is on the left in the pic and...I don't know what the one of the right is.
> 
> 2.  Someone mentioned that it isn't the best idea to have rank on the chest, better on the shoulders.  If so...why the move then?
> 
> 3.  What is the normal standard for rolled sleeves;  both them have it done differently in the pic.
> 
> 4.  Why didn't they make the specialty badge (or proper RCN name for it) patch big enough for all the possible ones;  like jump wings, etc?  Or does the Navy only allow stuff like Ships Diver on the op dress?



1. The ships badge is actually worn on the left and worn under the ensign. They wear the command badge because they don't have a ships badge . The patch worn on the right in the picture is a mission patch.

2. I see no problem with the rank badge where it is, lots of navies do it that way and seems to work. 

3. The rolls on the sleeves are a little bit off, but which one is correct and who is going to square them off?

4. Thats a good question, have no idea but if I were to guess making badges the same size will cost more money and better to use whats in stock.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The top is a flame resistant navy blue version of the new CADPAT.



Copy...is it very/somewhat important to have rank on the shoulders on a ship?  makes it easier to tell who is who if you're looking from the bridge *wings* down (not sure the correct name for that part of the ship) onto the deck etc?  Or in the Ops Room if everyone is in flash gear?


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> The patch worn on the right in the picture is a mission patch.



Our's would be the opposite...the "senior" badge would be on the right, mission/crew/theatre badge on the left.  For me, it looks like they are wearing them on the 'wrong' side.



> 4. Thats a good question, have no idea but if I were to guess making badges the same size will cost more money and better to use whats in stock.



I guess I meant the velrco patch on the uniform should be big enough to wear the bigger ones, like Clearance diver, PID, jump wings, aircrew etc.


----------



## Stoker

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Our's would be the opposite...the "senior" badge would be on the right, mission/crew/theatre badge on the left.  For me, it looks like they are wearing them on the 'wrong' side.
> 
> I guess I meant the velrco patch on the uniform should be big enough to wear the bigger ones, like Clearance diver, PID, jump wings, aircrew etc.



Got ya from what I have been told what they're wearing is the interim model not the production model which is a different color. Perhaps the Velcro will be bigger? I think only one badge will be allowed to be worn not multiples.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Chief Stoker is almost right on question one:

The unit (not ship) badge is worn on the left. They wear the MARCOM badge because that is their unit (These are the Admiral and his Command CPO).

AS for  question 2, the Chief may not see a problem, but I, as an old ship's CO, do. In action, on the bridge with ten people running around equipment and station that are four feet high, facing partly away from me, wearing their anti flash gear and helmet, how the hell am I supposed to quickly find out if i'm looking at the OOW or just another seaman? Similarly, in the Ops room, looking over quickly towards, say, sea guard, if I can't see rank slip ons how am I to know if it's AB So-and-so or PO2 I-am-damn-good feeding me information? It matters to me.

As for badges, my understanding from the minutes is that the velcro will be different (Chief just beat me to it). However, we have never been allowed wear more than one Specialist Skill badge (at least in my days) on the Work dress/NCD. If you hold multiple qualifications, you wear the most relevant one to your job. So a Submariner who becomes a Clearance Diver will wear his clearance diver badge while so employed but can switch to submariner then she returns to service on submarine.


----------



## Stoker

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Chief Stoker is almost right on question one:
> 
> The unit (not ship) badge is worn on the left. They wear the MARCOM badge because that is their unit (These are the Admiral and his Command CPO).
> 
> AS for  question 2, the Chief may not see a problem, but I, as an old ship's CO, do. In action, on the bridge with ten people running around equipment and station that are four feet high, facing partly away from me, wearing their anti flash gear and helmet, how the hell am I supposed to quickly find out if i'm looking at the OOW or just another seaman? Similarly, in the Ops room, looking over quickly towards, say, sea guard, if I can't see rank slip ons how am I to know if it's AB So-and-so or PO2 I-am-damn-good feeding me information? It matters to me.
> 
> As for badges, my understanding from the minutes is that the velcro will be different (Chief just beat me to it). However, we have never been allowed wear more than one Specialist Skill badge (at least in my days) on the Work dress/NCD. If you hold multiple qualifications, you wear the most relevant one to your job. So a Submariner who becomes a Clearance Diver will wear his clearance diver badge while so employed but can switch to submariner then she returns to service on submarine.



Doesn't bridge personnel often wear their rank, name or position on their helmets? The Royal Navy seems to have have a work around, I would imagine we will as well.


----------



## winnipegoo7

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> AS for  question 2, the Chief may not see a problem, but I, as an old ship's CO, do. In action, on the bridge with ten people running around equipment and station that are four feet high, facing partly away from me, wearing their anti flash gear and helmet, how the hell am I supposed to quickly find out if i'm looking at the OOW or just another seaman? Similarly, in the Ops room, looking over quickly towards, say, sea guard, if I can't see rank slip ons how am I to know if it's AB So-and-so or PO2 I-am-damn-good feeding me information? It matters to me.



Does the navy still wear flak vests on the bridge during action stations? If so, the flak vest would obscure the uniform's slip ons.


----------



## Stoker

winnipegoo7 said:
			
		

> Does the navy still wear flak vests on the bridge during action stations? If so, the flak vest would obscure the uniform's slip ons.



I think they do but really is it that hard to tell who's who. Doesn't the flak vest have a slip on as well?


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> I think they do but really is it that hard to tell who's who. Doesn't the flak vest have a slip on as well?



Bosnia era OD Green ones do, but the GEN 3 Cadpat one doesn't


----------



## Pusser

We do wear multiple qualification badges in NCD and as far as I can remember, always have - even in the green work dress.  The senior badge goes above the "navy" strip and the second one goes below.

As for the rank badges, moving them to the shoulder would be an expensive design change.  The new NCD are identical in design to the Army combat clothing.  Mounting shoulder straps on NCD would negate the cost savings created by making army and navy combat clothing the same in all but colour/material.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

So there we have it;  cost is more important than practical function for SHTF scenarios.   At least we've said it now and can stop pretending requirements are more important than $.   8)

As for RCN specialist, qualification badges and the Velcro patch size for them on the new op dress;  wouldn't it make sense for the RCN to go to the same design the RCAF uses?  Regardless of the size of the DEU badge, our badges for operational clothing are all the same size, as shown in this website:  http://va3kgb.ve3kbr.com/forces/air_trade_badges.htm  [DEU badges are now Pearl Grey, of course, both aircrew and flight crew]

Aircrew (pilot, ACSO, SAR Tech, Flt Engr & AES OP) badges are all the same size as the qualification/specialty badges (Flt Sgn, Loadmaster, flight crew, etc) and we use a standard size patch on the left side for it.  This way we don't have to worry about 2 different Velcro and/or patch sizes and non-aircrew badges look professional as well, like the flight crew one in the pic.  *I'll also note that the new version of 265 came out when we had a Traffic Tech qual'd Loadmaster as the RCAF CWO.  Loadmasters are a specialty qual flight crew, not aircrew as Loadmaster isn't a trade.  So the new 265 has Loadmaster badges grouped incorrectly in the Aircrew and flight crew badge figures.


----------



## Sailorwest

so all this is great but I've been holding off getting my serviceable, if somewhat faded, NCD jacket (version 1?) changed out pending a new uniform style for a few years.  When will the be available? I've seen CRCN and Chief wearing these for a while now so are these now on the way?


----------



## NavyShooter

I was at a meeting yesterday where the rollout was discussed (East Coast) and the timeline on this new uniform is supposedly 3 ish years.  Ish.

I know that is not the answer you're looking for.

I will suggest doing a search on the DIN for the RCN dress committee and coastal dress committee minutes.  Probably on the respective Base Chief's websites. 

NS


----------



## Eye In The Sky

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> I was at a meeting yesterday where the rollout was discussed (East Coast) and the timeline on this new uniform is supposedly 3 ish years.  Ish.



3 years?  Then why are Mom and Dad wearing it already then?  Wait..."so the troops can get used to it"?   :

If it isn't going to be given to the rank and file for 3 years...those 2 should put it away until then.  In fact they shouldn't even be walking around in it with big shit-eating grins.  

Put it on a mannequin, let people see it that way like others have done (IIRC) like the new CANSOF DEUs.  I don't recall the SOF Comdr and CWO walking around in that in public, IIRC the first time it was in public eyes was the GG CofC ceremony.


----------



## FSTO

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 3 years?  Then why are Mom and Dad wearing it already then?  Wait..."so the troops can get used to it"?   :
> 
> If it isn't going to be given to the rank and file for 3 years...those 2 should put it away until then.  In fact they shouldn't even be walking around in it with big crap-eating grins.
> 
> Put it on a mannequin, let people see it that way like others have done (IIRC) like the new CANSOF DEUs.  I don't recall the SOF Comdr and CWO walking around in that in public, IIRC the first time it was in public eyes was the GG CofC ceremony.


Short derailment here.

Why the **** did CANSOF decide to get separate uniforms? Are they not supposed to be incognito instead of walking around with the "Look at ME!!!!!!" sign hanging on them?

ahem.....now back to railing against the NASCAR look of NCD's being worn in offices in Ottawa.


----------



## jollyjacktar

They wear different combats too, multicam pattern.  I was on this parade in the photos.  I have to say, they looked splendid.


----------



## dimsum

FSTO said:
			
		

> Short derailment here.
> 
> Why the **** did CANSOF decide to get separate uniforms? Are they not supposed to be incognito instead of walking around with the "Look at ME!!!!!!" sign hanging on them?
> 
> ahem.....now back to railing against the NASCAR look of NCD's being worn in offices in Ottawa.



Well to be fair, the tan beret makes them stick out already.  Might as well go whole-hog.


----------



## Kirkhill

Also, I believe, CANSOF is neither Army, Navy or Air Force so "none of the above" applies wrt uniforms.


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View

CANSOFCOM is now its own element. Hence why the different DEU.


----------



## Underway

Calvillo said:
			
		

> My question is that how many times does one need to assert that one works with the Naval Forces of Canada? Let us see the jacket. There is the anchor on the name tape, NAVY / MARINE tape with maple leaf in the middle, Naval Ensign (which design includes the Canadian flag) on the shoulder, Canadian flag on its own on the upper shoulder, and the word CANADA on both slip-ons.



Judging by the general public who still ask if I'm in the army, pilot, police, paramedic etc... when I wear my uniform, I suspect we need flashing LED lights and an autotext notification to their phone when they come within 2m of a sailor.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Underway said:
			
		

> Judging by the general public who still ask if I'm in the army, pilot, police, paramedic etc... when I wear my uniform, I suspect we need  . . .



But don't the queries provide an excellent opportunity to interact with and educate the public about the navy.  It would go something like this"

-  Excuse me, but are you in the Army or are you a policeman or paramedic?  (alternatively:  _Hey buddy, does the 72 bus go downtown from here?_)

-  No sir (or ma'am), I am a sailor, an officer in the Royal Canadian Navy.  (alt: _F**k off! Do I look like a bus driver!_)

-  Navy?  What are you doing here in B*mf**k, Alberta (or Rotten Crotch, Saskatchewan or . . .), there's no ocean near here, where's your ship?  (alt:   _No, you look like a dick in that silly suit._)

-  Well, sir ma'am,  I'm assigned to a Reserve Naval Division here in B.F., it's HMCS Wiseass.  We are one of a number of "Stone Frigates" (the historically scatterbrained can launch into the history of the term) that are in cities throughout Canada.  Our mission is to generate trained individuals and teams for Canadian Forces operations, including: domestic safety operations as well as security and defense missions, while at the same time supporting the Navy's efforts in connecting with Canadians through the maintenance of a broad national presence.  Naval Reservists are individuals engaged in their civilian lives while pursuing a military career. They work for the Navy in the evenings, on weekends and during the summer period.   (alt:   _Well, I don't get to choose what I wear as a uniform.  Someone else decided to put all these f**king stickers on it_.)

-  Well, that's interesting, I never knew that.  Thank you for your service.  Can anyone join?  Were would I find more information about the Navy Reserve?  (alt:   _Yeah, okay.  But do you know if the 72 bus goes downtown_?)

-  Your welcome, it's our honour to serve.  Here's my business card.  If you call this number you can contact the recruiter for my unit and there is more info on the Canadian Forces and the Navy at the website indicated.   (alt:  _How the fuck would I know the bus schedule, I only came out here for a cigarette since you're no longer allowed to smoke in or near the titty bar._)

-  Good bye, have a nice day.  (alt:   _A**hole!)_

-  Good bye, you too.  (alt:  _Civvy pr**k!)_


Now wouldn't that be a wonderful opportunity to interconnect with Canadians.


----------



## FSTO

Eagle Eye View said:
			
		

> CANSOFCOM is now its own element. Hence why the different DEU.



So I know of 3 NWO (MARS) officers who went CANSOF and are now back in the RCN continuing their careers in the navy. So those guys now do a CT to CANSOF and then CT back? That seems like a bit of an administrative waste of time.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

FSTO said:
			
		

> So I know of 3 NWO (MARS) officers who went CANSOF and are now back in the RCN continuing their careers in the navy. So those guys now do a CT to CANSOF and then CT back? That seems like a bit of an administrative waste of time.



The _C_ in CT is for _Component_, vice element.   ;D


----------



## Good2Golf

FSTO said:
			
		

> So I know of 3 NWO (MARS) officers who went CANSOF and are now back in the RCN continuing their careers in the navy. So those guys now do a CT to CANSOF and then CT back? That seems like a bit of an administrative waste of time.



Because they stayed in the NWO(MARS) occupation while serving within CANSOF.  Assaulters, special operators and CBRN operators are CANSOF-specific occupations that OT'd from previous occupations, and are the ones who wear the CANSOF DEU.

Regards
G2G


----------



## dapaterson

Assaulters are not yet an occupation; rather, they are a managed specialty.


----------



## Good2Golf

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Assaulters are not yet an occupation; rather, they are a managed specialty.



My bad, I thought that would have been fully implemented by now, years and years after the effort began.  Perhaps in the next decade when the other files clear through CMP?


----------



## Underway

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> But don't the queries provide an excellent opportunity to interact with and educate the public about the navy.



I was being a bit sarcastic, but yes it does and normally I love talking to the public.  If I don't feel like talking I just generally point to the word NAVY and the anchor and let them figure it out.  (Oh you are in the Marines?  Very cool.  No ma'am that's french for the other word over here... NAVY....)


----------



## dapaterson

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> My bad, I thought that would have been fully implemented by now, years and years after the effort began.  Perhaps in the next decade when the other files clear through CMP?


Perhaps once the Tan folks make it a priority...


----------



## Good2Golf

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Perhaps once the Tan folks make it a priority...



...ahead of....?


----------



## dapaterson

If I told you, I'd have to kill you.


If I knew...


----------



## Journeyman

FSTO said:
			
		

> Are they not supposed to be incognito ....


That's a recurring misconception, occasionally from within the Command as well -- usually junior members. 

While JTF2 is very low-key, the remaining units (CSOR, 427 SOAS, CJIRU-CBRN [and the Canadian Special Operations Training Centre]) are all very much the public face of CANSOFCOM.  They provide unique skills to the CAF, and Canada writ large, but they were never intended to be "Kingsman: The Secret Service."


----------



## jollyjacktar

And boy oh boy do they ever get a reef knot in their face if you mention the "B Squad" words.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

BTW, Underway, people in Quebec, at least, can be understood when they think you may be a cop.

About 20 years ago, the police forces in Quebec, including the QPP, had their uniforms redesigned and, as part of it , wanted to modernize their rank badges. Like many police forces in the past, they look to the Armed Forces and guess, what: They picked the CAF officer's stripes system. Since the officers wear dark Navy pants with white shirts, and even though they don't wear Elliot's eyes obviously, they look pretty close.

Here are some pictures. You tell me how much different from us they look.  ;D
BTW, in the press conference pic, there are four different police forces included - all with those stripes.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Buddy in the middle photo has CF ribbons on too.


----------



## Underway

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> BTW, Underway, people in Quebec, at least, can be understood when they think you may be a cop.



I'm generally happy to be recognized as a cop vice all the other options.  At least its paramilitary.   ;D


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Buddy in the middle photo has CF ribbons on too.



"Buddy" in the middle picture is commandant (he recently got his promotion to three-ringer) Ian Lafrenière. In the picture, he is still a commandant-adjoint. Ian is public relations officer and the public face of the Montreal police. A no-nonsense guy greatly appreciated by all journalists in Montreal for his straightforward approach.

Ian serves (or served, I am not sure anymore being out of the circuit for while) in the militia in Montreal, in the same capacity as public affairs officer, IIRC.


----------



## jollyjacktar

I wonder if he still does, as we've not been in Cyprus for a long time and he's only sporting a CD.


----------



## Pusser

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Buddy in the middle photo has CF ribbons on too.



Small correction to a common misconception:  those are NOT "CF ribbons."  They are ribbons in the Canadian Honours System, in which the CF participates, but does not "own."  Although one has to be in the Armed Forces in order to receive certain awards (e.g. the Canadian Forces Decoration), they are still honours awarded or approved by the Crown, not by the CF.

Two of the three ribbons the gentleman is wearing may have nothing to do with military service.  The CF was only one of the partner agencies involved with the Diamond Jubilee program, so he could have received it for something else.  Also, police officers and civilians can receive UN medals for service on UN missions.

CF dress regulations only determine how Honours from the Crown are worn (e.g. must be originals or replacements, not replicas and must be court-mounted), not which ones may be worn.  Any award in the Canadian Honours System can be worn on the CF uniform.  For example, somebody who won a Medal of Bravery as an eight year old child would properly wear it on his/her uniform while on basic training years later.  A currently serving member who receives a Sovereign's Medal for Volunteers for work a local food bank, entirely unbeknownst to his/her CF chain of command, can properly wear it on CF uniform.  In neither case does anyone need permission from anyone to do so (although they may be asked to provide proof of the award).  Conversely, there is no regulation that requires a member to wear an award if they don't want to.


----------



## Mick

I doubt it's the UN Cyprus medal, as it is being worn out of sequence in relation to both the CD and Jubilee ribbons.  Also, no associated CPSM is being worn.

The blue and white ribbon could be a police or municipal/provincial award maybe?


----------



## jollyjacktar

You're correct on the sequence of ribbons, mick.  Doh, on me.  It certainly does look like a Cyprus ribbon vs a Police Long Service ribbon or the like.  

Pusser, to split hairs, you're correct.  But I'm not "Pusser" enough to care to do so myself.  I still made myself understood.


----------



## Blackadder1916

While it's continuing to veer off topic, here's an alternative ribbon array worn by the officer.


----------



## LightFighter

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> ...as we've not been in Cyprus for a long time



In large numbers we haven’t, but we still have a rotation going of one officer. 



> Task Force Cyprus
> The Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) currently contributes one officer to the operations staff at UNFICYP headquarters in Nicosia. The normal tour of duty on Operation SNOWGOOSE is one year.


http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/operations-abroad-current/op-snowgoose.page






			
				FSTO said:
			
		

> So I know of 3 NWO (MARS) officers who went CANSOF and are now back in the RCN continuing their careers in the navy. So those guys now do a CT to CANSOF and then CT back? That seems like a bit of an administrative waste of time.





			
				Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Because they stayed in the NWO(MARS) occupation while serving within CANSOF.  Assaulters, special operators and CBRN operators are CANSOF-specific occupations that OT'd from previous occupations, and are the ones who wear the CANSOF DEU.



In addition to dapaterson’s comment about managed specialty for JTF2 Assaulter.  The only two CANSOF trades(SF and CBRN Operator) are NCM trades, officers in these roles retain their original MOSID, so no OT for them to return to a prior trade.  Plus, there are a variety of supporter positions within the individual units and CANSOFCOM HQ.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Pickle Rick said:
			
		

> In large numbers we haven’t, but we still have a rotation going of one officer.



I stand corrected.


----------



## Pusser

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Pusser, to split hairs, you're correct.  But I'm not "Pusser" enough to care to do so myself.  I still made myself understood.



If correcting misconceptions is "splitting hairs" then, guilty!  The trouble is, I have seen cases where folks in leadership positions have actually tried to stop people from wearing legitimate honours because they weren't issued by the CF and that's simply not correct.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Sure, I've served with guys who had foreign decorations and other awards etc.


----------



## Pusser

I was actually referring to cases of members with Canadian honours, but which they earned for activities that have nothing to do with the CAF.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Both apply nevertheless.


----------



## Sailorwest

"ladies and gentlemen, remain calm. We have hijacked this thread and are re-directing it in various directions. It will all make sense.... at some point"


----------



## jollyjacktar

I was at the CANSEC trade show in Ottawa today.  On display at the Logistik booth was the new NCD.  It is not the CADPAT in Blue.  The trousers are well thought out and will be quite comfortable (they used the term "active wear"), the shirt is quite nice too.  They're saying there will be a fleece jacket as well as another "puffy" style jacket to go with it.  The fleece and puffy can apparently go under the floater jacket if needed.  Should come out sometime next year.  It will be much better than the present NCD.  

Plus Logistik have a system that will take 3D views of your feet, a mat to log your pressure points and movement.  This is fed into a 3D printer to knock out a custom orthodic insert.  They want to go one step further to take this info and make made to measure footwear on order.  They're looking to team up with a footwear company (sorry the name escapes me) and are hoping for the go ahead to carry on.  Perhaps will be the panacea for the Army's woes.


----------



## jollyjacktar




----------



## dimsum

I've said this before and I'll say it again - make that in green and aircrew can wear it too instead of the current 2-piece flying suit, since the flying suit contract is still...questionable. 

(I wanted to say "in the air" but come on...)


----------



## jollyjacktar

What impressed me the most was the weight and feel of the fabric.  These are going to very comfortable.  I'm shocked, l tell you, shocked. 

There are few tweaks that need to be done to satisfy the adults.  The shirt on display has buttons, they did do a prototype with zipper and from what the Logistik man was saying "buttons" and an naval officer who's in the project said "zippers, not 15 minutes ago", L-man said Kracken had just been by and said "buttons".  Zippers would have been my vote too.

The trousers even have a little zip pocket in the pocket to keep change or other small things secure.

Yes, Dimsum, I think these in green would be aircrew friendly.


----------



## Stoker

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> What impressed me the most was the weight and feel of the fabric.  These are going to very comfortable.  I'm shocked, l tell you, shocked.
> 
> There are few tweaks that need to be done to satisfy the adults.  The shirt on display has buttons, they did do a prototype with zipper and from what the Logistik man was saying "buttons" and an naval officer who's in the project said "zippers, not 15 minutes ago", L-man said Kracken had just been by and said "buttons".  Zippers would have been my vote too.
> 
> The trousers even have a little zip pocket in the pocket to keep change or other small things secure.
> 
> Yes, Dimsum, I think these in green would be aircrew friendly.



So it appears that this will be close to the final production version?


----------



## jollyjacktar

Yes.  I'd say for the trousers, 99%.  The shirt needs a few tweaks to enable the sleeves to be rolled up comfortably.  L-man was suggesting tweak here and a stich there then a final production model for the royal assent from the adults.  They hope to be in production for a spring delivery.  But you can pretty much take what you see here to the bank as the changes won't really be noticable to us.


----------



## Stoker

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Yes.  I'd say for the trousers, 99%.  The shirt needs a few tweaks to enable the sleeves to be rolled up comfortably.  L-man was suggesting tweak here and a stich there then a final production model for the royal assent from the adults.  They hope to be in production for a spring delivery.  But you can pretty much take what you see here to the bank as the changes won't really be noticable to us.



Yes it appears quite different to what the Kraken was wearing. I may have to steal your pictures and post them on my page.


----------



## jollyjacktar

PM me your email and I'll mail them to you.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Yes it appears quite different to what the Kraken was wearing. I may have to steal your pictures and post them on my page.



They're not at all like the CADPAT anymore.  The trousers are a closer fitting cut, we don't need the baggy legs.  Apparently the Army is envious of the design and cut as well.

I forgot.  The female shirts will have the rank Velcro lowered as they need it to accommodate for their physical attributes.


----------



## dimsum

.


----------



## FSTO

I was there as well. I like that it is of lighter weight, that you can roll up the sleeves and the lack of velcro on the outside. I would rather have the zipper over the buttons to do up the jacket. Overall a home run. 

Since I won't be wearing the NCD unless I go to sea for some reason I asked the rep about the DEU pants. I've been purchasing dress pants off the rack that you can wash at home and don't need ironing, etc etc. The rep said that Logistik already supply these types of pants to other clients and they have a perm seam (no not like the version that was on the NCD's) that is the same as the seam you get from the dry-cleaners. These pants also have an "active wear" waist. The only reason the military doesn't have these types of pants is that they haven't asked for them! 
So I sent an email to who I think is the appropriate authority.  

New white peak cap will be available by late September
Issued HCW's are coming, sometime in the new year.


----------



## Halifax Tar

Looks good JJT. 

I am glad its of a lighter material.  

Any time line for mass issue ?  If I missed that I apologize.


----------



## Furniture

Now they need to make a version in a lighter colour for people sailing in tropical climates. Nothing is quite as nice as wearing a black nomex suit in 41C temps on the Turkish coast.


----------



## Navy_Pete

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> They're not at all like the CADPAT anymore.  The trousers are a closer fitting cut, we don't need the baggy legs.  Apparently the Army is envious of the design and cut as well.
> 
> I forgot.  The female shirts will have the rank Velcro lowered as they need it to accommodate for their physical attributes.



Ironically the previous shirts, pants and jackets being poorly fitted did a really good job for fire protection; if you look at the results from the burn testing, the areas that were fully covered generally signficantly reduced the burns received, but there was still some first/second degree burns in spots where both layers tend to touch the skin (like between the shoulder blades).

Around the waist, where most people have huge baggy pockets of fabric where generally almost no burns; the air pockets prevented any significant heat transfer.

If you haven't seen the test video, they basically took an old pair of NCDs, put it on a dummy in the middle of four flamethrowers, hit it with a five second blast, then did some analysis (it was kitted out with sensors to measure the max temp, heat flux, etc).

They were ugly and didn't fit well, but felt a lot better about my chances of being able to run up a ladder through a hot gas layer (in a Kootenay type experience), or being in a space where something flared off (like a gas turbine with an oil leak that shot a fireball into the engine room).


----------



## Lumber

These look sooooo much better than what Kraken and the Command Chief have been sporting in pictures of late.



			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> (I wanted to say "in the air" but come on...)



You missed a golden opportunity, my friend.


----------



## FSTO

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Ironically the previous shirts, pants and jackets being poorly fitted did a really good job for fire protection; if you look at the results from the burn testing, the areas that were fully covered generally signficantly reduced the burns received, but there was still some first/second degree burns in spots where both layers tend to touch the skin (like between the shoulder blades).
> 
> Around the waist, where most people have huge baggy pockets of fabric where generally almost no burns; the air pockets prevented any significant heat transfer.
> 
> If you haven't seen the test video, they basically took an old pair of NCDs, put it on a dummy in the middle of four flamethrowers, hit it with a five second blast, then did some analysis (it was kitted out with sensors to measure the max temp, heat flux, etc).
> 
> They were ugly and didn't fit well, but felt a lot better about my chances of being able to run up a ladder through a hot gas layer (in a Kootenay type experience), or being in a space where something flared off (like a gas turbine with an oil leak that shot a fireball into the engine room).



But people (not me) want to wear their NCD's in air conditioned offices ashore.  :brickwall:


----------



## Lumber

FSTO said:
			
		

> But people (not me) want to wear their NCD's in air conditioned offices ashore.  :brickwall:



Both my current desk job and my next desk job all have NCDs as their dress of the day.


----------



## Navy_Pete

I don't really get that; at least with CADPAT, people automatically get that you're in the forces.  New or old NCDs will never have the same recognition, so kind of dumb.

Hoping for the days though where the maintainers can wear generic coveralls ; the jacket being your second layer was always one of the counters, but doesn't seem to really matter with this version of NCDs.


----------



## Pusser

FSTO said:
			
		

> But people (not me) want to wear their NCD's in air conditioned offices ashore.  :brickwall:



The wearing of the most expensive clothing in the inventory, in climate controlled offices in Canada makes absolutely no sense.  The folks at the coal face are complaining about shortages of the clothing they need and actually use for its intended purpose, yet HQ folks are wearing out the seats of the trousers sitting at their desks.  We have service dress for a reason...

Sadly, this is nothing new.  I'm sure Caesar's Legions had the same issue.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Ironically the previous shirts, pants and jackets being poorly fitted did a really good job for fire protection; if you look at the results from the burn testing, the areas that were fully covered generally signficantly reduced the burns received, but there was still some first/second degree burns in spots where both layers tend to touch the skin (like between the shoulder blades).
> 
> Around the waist, where most people have huge baggy pockets of fabric where generally almost no burns; the air pockets prevented any significant heat transfer.
> 
> If you haven't seen the test video, they basically took an old pair of NCDs, put it on a dummy in the middle of four flamethrowers, hit it with a five second blast, then did some analysis (it was kitted out with sensors to measure the max temp, heat flux, etc).
> 
> They were ugly and didn't fit well, but felt a lot better about my chances of being able to run up a ladder through a hot gas layer (in a Kootenay type experience), or being in a space where something flared off (like a gas turbine with an oil leak that shot a fireball into the engine room).



Good points.  I wasn't privy to those trials and cannot say if the new stuff has been flame tested.  While not as baggy as the current stuff, they aren't skin tight either.

I suppose the new stuff is something I'd be willing to be caught dead in. (rim shot)


----------



## FyroniK

Don't suppose you asked if black was just the standard colour for display purposes or if the military was planning on a different colour, example blue?

Just curious .


----------



## Stoker

FyroniK said:
			
		

> Don't suppose you asked if black was just the standard colour for display purposes or if the military was planning on a different colour, example blue?
> 
> Just curious .




Actually it is Navy Blue(Black) but no it won't be actually blue.


----------



## CountDC

Pusser said:
			
		

> The wearing of the most expensive clothing in the inventory, in climate controlled offices in Canada makes absolutely no sense.  The folks at the coal face are complaining about shortages of the clothing they need and actually use for its intended purpose, yet HQ folks are wearing out the seats of the trousers sitting at their desks.  We have service dress for a reason...



but if they all wore service dress then who would be called on every time a work party is needed?  Need the Sgts/PO2s and below to be able to move things when ever someone gets the bright idea to shift or rearrange offices.    partly sarcasm but also true when I was at HQ level.  WO's and up did not wear combats.


----------



## Underway

It looks like a jacket and a T-shirt.  Not a shirt and T-shirt combo.  Why would you roll up jacket sleeves?  Doesn't this reduce weather comfort flexibility in the uniform vs the current blue shirt rolled up when warm, blue shirt sleeves down when cool,  and jacket+shirt when cold(ish).

If it doesn't have this type of flexibility I don't care how nice the jacket is.  It will alway be too warm as I can't be going around in my T-shirt doing stuff.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Underway said:
			
		

> It looks like a jacket and a T-shirt.  Not a shirt and T-shirt combo.  Why would you roll up jacket sleeves?  Doesn't this reduce weather comfort flexibility in the uniform vs the current blue shirt rolled up when warm, blue shirt sleeves down when cool,  and jacket+shirt when cold(ish).
> 
> If it doesn't have this type of flexibility I don't care how nice the jacket is.  It will alway be too warm as I can't be going around in my T-shirt doing stuff.



It is not a jacket.  It is a shirt with tee shirt as the second layer.  There will be a fleece and a "puffy" jacket to go with it.


----------



## LoKe

*EDIT*: Removed pictures because they've already been posted.  Looks like my post was merged with this thread.


----------



## Spencer100

New US Navy uniforms

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2018/06/another-uniform-failure.html


----------



## Lumber

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> New US Navy uniforms
> 
> http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2018/06/another-uniform-failure.html



Tuck your god damn shirt in sailor!... What's that? Come again? Oh... It's supposed to be like that? That can't be... but... alright...


----------



## dimsum

Lumber said:
			
		

> Tuck your god damn shirt in sailor!... What's that? Come again? Oh... It's supposed to be like that? That can't be... but... alright...



Lifted from Cdr Salamander's caption:  



> OK fine, I'll say it.
> 
> Everyone, man and woman, looks 5-months pregnant.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Fugly


----------



## CountDC

Pajamas?  Civilians dressed for Halloween?


----------



## Blackadder1916

Lumber said:
			
		

> Tuck your god damn shirt in sailor!... What's that? Come again? Oh... It's supposed to be like that? That can't be... but... alright...



But CdrSalamander (and Navy Times) didn't use the US Navy imagery associated with the trial of these new uniforms.  Like all fashion marketing, you have to use models with better body type and flattering camera angles.

The USNI stayed with the program.






Though the photographer could have at least made sure they were in-step.


The boots are an interesting change.


----------



## jib9022

FSTO said:
			
		

> New white peak cap will be available by late September
> Issued HCW's are coming, sometime in the new year.



That's an awesome news!!!! I guess I can hold off on buying it from states!! 
high collar whites all the way!!


----------



## jib9022

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> New US Navy uniforms
> 
> http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2018/06/another-uniform-failure.html



oh wow, they are one ugly uniform..
kind of look like inmate suits without the ball cap


----------



## Remius

they look like janitorial staff...


----------



## Spencer100

Well the take away is that the RCN will look better than the USN   in their new uniforms.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The boots are an interesting change.



I like the sea boots.  They'll go on fast once broken in.


----------



## FSTO

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

>



Anyone ID the badge below the SWO (Surface Warfare Officer) badge?


----------



## dimsum

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The boots are an interesting change.



Makes sense for quick don, but I wonder how the elastic would work in a fire situation.  Won't it just melt onto the sock/foot?


----------



## Blackadder1916

FSTO said:
			
		

> Anyone ID the badge below the SWO (Surface Warfare Officer) badge?



Neither are wearing a SWO pin.

The LCdr (in khaki) is Supply Corps and is wearing the Naval Aviation Supply Corps badge (top) and the Surface Warfare Supply Corps badge (bottom)
The PO1 (in blue) is wearing Enlisted Surface Warfare Specialist badge (or maybe the Information Dominance Warfare Specialist badge, image not clear) and the Enlisted Expeditionary Warfare Specialist badge (bottom)


----------



## dimsum

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Neither are wearing a SWO pin.
> 
> The LCdr (in khaki) is Supply Corps and is wearing the Naval Aviation Supply Corps badge (top) and the Surface Warfare Supply Corps badge (bottom)
> The PO1 (in blue) is wearing Enlisted Surface Warfare Specialist badge (or maybe the Information Dominance Warfare Specialist badge, image not clear) and the Enlisted Expeditionary Warfare Specialist badge (bottom)



I'm surprised they're wearing metal pins at all on operational dress.


----------



## FSTO

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Neither are wearing a SWO pin.
> 
> The LCdr (in khaki) is Supply Corps and is wearing the Naval Aviation Supply Corps badge (top) and the Surface Warfare Supply Corps badge (bottom)
> The PO1 (in blue) is wearing Enlisted Surface Warfare Specialist badge (or maybe the Information Dominance Warfare Specialist badge, image not clear) and the Enlisted Expeditionary Warfare Specialist badge (bottom)


Thanks, my old eyes couldn't make them out.


----------



## FSTO

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm surprised they're wearing metal pins at all on operational dress.



If navy's didn't have a fetish towards "Walking out dress", what is wrong with this outfit? (save the doughboy helmet and gaiters)


----------



## Blackadder1916

FSTO said:
			
		

> Thanks, my old eyes couldn't make them out.



And mine aren't any younger and getting worse.   But, a better view here.  https://i2.wp.com/files.polldaddy.com/7e42f43e7b8defe252234a6a0c1d4615-5b1581be328d0.jpg


----------



## jollyjacktar

FSTO said:
			
		

> If navy's didn't have a fetish towards "Walking out dress", what is wrong with this outfit? (save the doughboy helmet and gaiters)



I'm cool with it as long as they give me a BAR to walk out with.


----------



## Blackadder1916

FSTO said:
			
		

> If navy's didn't have a fetish towards "Walking out dress", what is wrong with this outfit? (save the doughboy helmet and gaiters)



Enhanced Naval Boarding Party?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Those American Navy Uniforms are terrible looking.  

Also, only the military could make two otherwise very attractive women look terrible  ;D


----------



## stoker dave

Those US Navy uniforms are hideous. 

I expect that is the result of a procurement system focused on the lowest-price bidder.


----------



## OceanBonfire

An official picture of someone other than VAdm Lloyd and CPO1 Vigneault wearing the new NCD:

https://www.facebook.com/HMCSNCSMCalgary/photos/pcb.360395757854524/360395591187874/?type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/HMCSNCSMCalgary/posts/360395757854524?__tn__=-R


----------



## dapaterson

Prepping for a second career with NASCAR, no doubt...


----------



## dimsum

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Prepping for a second career with NASCAR, no doubt...



I'm shocked the Cox'n isn't having fits that the ship's crest is being covered up by the sleeve roll  :stirpot:


----------



## FSTO

I'd be happy if the moved the ships crest back to its original spot (above the name tag) and took off the Navy/Marine tag. 
When I saw the uniform at CANSEC I was impressed at the amount of thought gone into it. It actually looks pretty good and is fits well with what you wear NCD's for when you are at sea. They can stay there as far as I'm concerned, no need to wear them in air conditioned offices ashore!


----------



## swonder25

I have heard many different times for these getting rolled out. Has anyone heard anything recently?


----------



## Stoker

Picked up the new style floater jacket today, seems heavier than the old one and it came with a fleece liner to wear underneath. The liner can act as your second layer.


----------



## Good2Golf

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm shocked the Cox'n isn't having fits that the ship's crest is being covered up by the sleeve roll  :stirpot:



It wouldn’t be the OS’ fault that some committee somewhere kept on adding bumpf to the sleeve that it would make neat rolling darned near impossible.   The alternative is a roll-up that stops mid-forearm, and last I checked, only one person* in the CF gets away with that...

Regards

G2G


* - Hint, starts with an “L” and rhymes with “-ieutenant-General Rouleau” ;D


----------



## PMedMoe

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> It wouldn’t be the OS’ fault that some committee somewhere kept on adding bumpf to the sleeve that it would make neat rolling darned near impossible.   The alternative is a roll-up that stops mid-forearm, and last I checked, only one person* in the CF gets away with that...
> 
> Regards
> 
> G2G
> 
> 
> * - Hint, starts with an “L” and rhymes with “-ieutenant-General Rouleau” ;D



Ummm...no.  I saw quite a few Air Force personnel  (in Trenton) with the mid-forearm sleeve roll....


----------



## Furniture

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Prepping for a second career with NASCAR, no doubt...




Becaue being asked if you're mall security, or a buss driver is better than being easily identifable as RCN.. 

Maybe the idea of a blank uniform should be relegated to the wastes of history, as in reality is was a minor road bump in uniform history.


----------



## Good2Golf

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Ummm...no.  I saw quite a few Air Force personnel  (in Trenton) with the mid-forearm sleeve roll....



PMedMoe, don’t mistake a slovenly, air force-sequel push halfway up the forearm with an ironed, creased, formal partial-roll of coolness... ;D

Cheers
G2G


----------



## PuckChaser

Furniture said:
			
		

> Becaue being asked if you're mall security, or a buss driver is better than being easily identifable as RCN..



The anchor beside the name wasn't enough? Are we wearing operational uniforms for civilians to know who we are, or are we wearing them as operational attire designed not for fashion but function?

I'm actually surprised that the RCN didn't try to get the rank velcro changed from Canada to RCN. There definitely needs to be more flair on there. I don't even see the space for a SSI so that people can immediately discount ideas based on the colour of a random patch. Or maybe I'm just jealous I haven't qualified for my golden Tent Service Insignia (TSI) for consecutive days living in the field doing my job...


----------



## dimsum

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I don't even see the space for a SSI so that people can immediately discount ideas based on the colour of a random patch.



It's definitely there.  She probably doesn't have the sea days for it yet.


----------



## Furniture

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> The anchor beside the name wasn't enough? Are we wearing operational uniforms for civilians to know who we are, or are we wearing them as operational attire designed not for fashion but function?
> 
> I'm actually surprised that the RCN didn't try to get the rank velcro changed from Canada to RCN. There definitely needs to be more flair on there. I don't even see the space for a SSI so that people can immediately discount ideas based on the colour of a random patch. Or maybe I'm just jealous I haven't qualified for my golden Tent Service Insignia (TSI) for consecutive days living in the field doing my job...



Says someone that wears an "army" uniform, and has likely never been misidentified as anything else. 

EDIT: I've had an epiphany, lets get rid of attendance medals too! What does 1-12 months in Kandahar qualify you to opine on anyway? You're no better than anyone else, why does some ribbon and tin make you special? 

The SSI simply tells the story of how many days one has spent at sea, the rank and the deportment tell the rest of the story. Perhaps the CAF should abandon all forms of identifier(rank and otherwise), and just assume that someone will know all they need to know by the cut of one's hair and the level of polish on ones boots(unless they are army, and have bought their own). If someone wants a prettier SSI, sail... 

Just like earlier in this thread, the people that seem to take issue with the new badges, and uniform pattern are the people that will never wear it.


----------



## Stoker

Furniture said:
			
		

> Says someone that wears an "army" uniform, and has likely never been misidentified as anything else.
> 
> EDIT: I've had an epiphany, lets get rid of attendance medals too! What does 1-12 months in Kandahar qualify you to opine on anyway? You're no better than anyone else, why does some ribbon and tin make you special?
> 
> The SSI simply tells the story of how many days one has spent at sea, the rank and the deportment tell the rest of the story. Perhaps the CAF should abandon all forms of identifier(rank and otherwise), and just assume that someone will know all they need to know by the cut of one's hair and the level of polish on ones boots(unless they are army, and have bought their own). If someone wants a prettier SSI, sail...
> 
> Just like earlier in this thread, the people that seem to take issue with the new badges, and uniform pattern are the people that will never wear it.



Yes Puckchaser has been very critical of our new NCD's and before that the SSI. It must be jealousy like he said I guess. If you want a trip on HMCS SUMMERSIDE in Dec crossing the Atlantic to really see why we have an SSI that can be arranged.


----------



## Journeyman

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> It must be jealousy ...


If you want to talk jealousy, imagine CPO1 Vigneault...every day seeing that blank Velcro above his Navy/Marine badge -- not even an escargot fork badge, like that guy beside him.  



[ Yes, I know who 'that guy' is ]


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Quite right, Chief! 

I have always found that if there is one element in the CAF that has no business commenting on every one else's bling, it's the Army - with its ten thousand badges telling the world every one they work for from the Division down to their platoon section, and every minor qualification they hold, not to mention indecipherable acronyms that are only clear to those in on the joke, etc. etc.  :nod:

Anyway, perhaps Army (or RCAF) people would be much less critical of the Navy's use of CANADA flashers on their uniform if they understood what it historically represents for us and the battle it was to gain a Canadian identity - which this flasher is a big part of. Wearing Canada flashers on our otherwise British looking uniforms and adorning our funnels with a originally green maple leaf were the two first actions taken by a young RCN as a demonstration of its independence from the rest of the empire's fleet. And those action were often fought tooth and nail by way too British senior officers of the RCN. It had to be fought as one recrimination (amongst many) of too much Britishness in various mutinies shortly after the war, with at least one Admiral saying that those flashers sullied the uniform's beauty and he rather have CANADA sown on his pants than ever wear them (as if it was his decision).

So yes, we like our CANADA flashers in the Navy. They are part of our identity. Period.


----------



## PMedMoe

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> PMedMoe, don’t mistake a slovenly, air force-sequel push halfway up the forearm with an ironed, creased, formal partial-roll of coolness... ;D
> 
> Cheers
> G2G



Oops.  My bad.   :not-again:


----------



## Stoker

Journeyman said:
			
		

> If you want to talk jealousy, imagine CPO1 Vigneault...every day seeing that blank Velcro above his Navy/Marine badge -- not even an escargot fork badge, like that guy beside him.
> 
> 
> 
> [ Yes, I know who 'that guy' is ]



The "escargot fork badge" as you call it was on the old NCD's for years, its not a new thing.....and not a easy thing to qualify for BTW.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I don't know...is the SSI really any different from the trade badge and levels on the Army DEU?  RCAF trade badges don't change between QL3 and QL6...why does the Army feel to the need to use the crown and laurels "just because someone passed a course/did their job".  Or, how about the Marksmanship badges...you lucked out and shot some paper targets well one year. 

 :stirpot:


----------



## Journeyman

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> .....and not a easy thing to qualify for BTW.


Naval costuming is clearly out of my lane, so I'll back away. 

But while you're Googling "humour,"  I'll just note that my basic dive course was run in February;  because we weren't Navy, we didn't 'earn' the right to wear gloves until the final day -- we suggested that the PO have sexual experience with himself.  When I went back for the Dive Supervisor course, it was much less anal.  All that to say, I'm quite aware of how many courses are inherently difficult.... and how many are simply made difficult due to penis size.




* Mind you, morning PT was actually motivational as we were all in better shape than the Clearance Diver LS "leading" the morning runs.  I still have happy memories of him having us run up and down hills or stairs while he had to catch his breath.  Simple pleasures.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Naval costuming is clearly out of my lane, so I'll back away.
> 
> But while you're Googling "humour,"  I'll just note that my basic dive course was run in February;  because we weren't Navy, we didn't 'earn' the right to wear gloves until the final day -- we suggested that the PO have sexual experience with himself.  When I went back for the Dive Supervisor course, it was much less anal.  All that to say, I'm quite aware of how many courses are inherently difficult.... and how many are simply made difficult due to penis size.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Mind you, morning PT was actually motivational as we were all in better shape than the Clearance Diver LS "leading" the morning runs.  I still have happy memories of him having us run up and down hills or stairs while he had to catch his breath.  Simple pleasures.



And you probably did it with a smoke in your mouth... :stirpot: ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

FSTO said:
			
		

> They can stay there as far as I'm concerned, no need to wear them in air conditioned offices ashore!



If the RCN can make that happen, maybe they'll avoid the issue the RCAF has with flying suits.  Despite the orders saying 'shall only be worn by those in a flying position', that doesn't happen and it certainly doesn't help it when anyone who 'just wants to' can put one on because they are in a senior position.  

It is especially grating when you and the people who work for you can't get flying suits for...you know...actual flying duties and you see others, who shouldn't be in the flight suit in the first place, wearing one "in the office".

But hey...you know, Dress Reg only apply to NCMs, Senior and Junior Officers I guess.  Meanwhile, aircrew who have tan flying suits issued to them are authorized to wear them now, on Wings because of the clusterfuck that has been happening with the flying suit contract (or lack of one)

#LeadByExample?


----------



## Stoker

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Naval costuming is clearly out of my lane, so I'll back away.
> 
> But while you're Googling "humour,"  I'll just note that my basic dive course was run in February;  because we weren't Navy, we didn't 'earn' the right to wear gloves until the final day -- we suggested that the PO have sexual experience with himself.  When I went back for the Dive Supervisor course, it was much less anal.  All that to say, I'm quite aware of how many courses are inherently difficult.... and how many are simply made difficult due to penis size.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * Mind you, morning PT was actually motivational as we were all in better shape than the Clearance Diver LS "leading" the morning runs.  I still have happy memories of him having us run up and down hills or stairs while he had to catch his breath.  Simple pleasures.



Good for you and your experience doing your scuba course, builds character being gloveless in Feb. Nice anecdote about the LS Clearance diver as well.


----------



## MARS

Journeyman said:
			
		

> because we weren't Navy, we didn't 'earn' the right to wear gloves until the final day



Bah,  I just put my hands in my pockets.  Used to drive my Coxswain apoplectic.  ;D  It helped (me, that is) that I was the ship's CO...which made him even crazier.  It was indeed good to be king


----------



## Halifax Tar

Originally I didn't really like the new NCDs.  Having seen them around for a while know I have warmed up to them and look forward to wearing them.

IMHO the SSI is silly, it truly is a "I did the job I am paid for" badge.  Are some medals the same, yup 100%.  Either way neither is going away because of my personal feeling.  

Having said the above; and have having time both in the RCN and Army, I have come a couple of conclusions which I tell anyone if the ask what my thoughts are on both environments.  Never once in my time in Army or with the Army in AFG did I ever wake up and questions my life's choices; almost every day I wake up at sea I question my life's choices and where I went wrong.  

Journeyman, when did you do you dive course ?  And which dive course was it ?  There are a few different courses that are run at the FDU's.  Seeing as I just completed 2 years at FDU(A) I would be really interested to see the meat behind your anecdotally laced post.


----------



## MARS

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Journeyman, when did you do you dive course ?  And which dive course was it ?  There are a few different courses that are run at the FDU's.  Seeing as I just completed 2 years at FDU(A) I would be really interested to see the meat behind your anecdotally laced post.



 :rofl:
Knowing JM in real life, I would love nothing more than to see his response publicly posted on this board.  It would be, without a doubt,  the most epic thing I have read all year.  :nod:

Knowing JM in real life, I have no doubt that it will be handled via PM with the class and grace appropriate to someone of his experience.  :nod:


----------



## Lumber

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> If the RCN can make that happen, maybe they'll avoid the issue the RCAF has with flying suits.  Despite the orders saying 'shall only be worn by those in a flying position', that doesn't happen and it certainly doesn't help it when anyone who 'just wants to' can put one on because they are in a senior position.



Wait what? You mean the 2Lt Pilot, pre-PFT, who was working as an admin clerk in my orderly room wasn't suppose to be wearing a flight suit?


----------



## Halifax Tar

MARS said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> Knowing JM in real life, I would love nothing more than to see his response publicly posted on this board.  It would be, without a doubt,  the most epic thing I have read all year.  :nod:
> 
> Knowing JM in real life, I have no doubt that it will be handled via PM with the class and grace appropriate to someone of his experience.  :nod:



Why ?  What exactly did I say that was so inflammatory ?


----------



## Eagle_Eye_View

IMO if the RCN want to add patches, badges or whatever, I say good for them. If they can recruit more people because of it, even better. Some young kid will probably see the uniform and might be the trigger for joining the Navy. Who knows?


----------



## MARS

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Why ?  What exactly did I say that was so inflammatory ?



Nothing at all inflammatory, HT.   ;D  Apologies that it sounded that way.  I am simply privy to 'some' of what I would consider to be JM's very storied career.  He is certainly too humble and professional to go into the details on this net, but I stand by my assertion that it is indeed 'epic'.

I will now retire from this thread.


----------



## Good2Golf

MARS said:
			
		

> Bah,  I just put my hands in my pockets.  Used to drive my Coxswain apoplectic.  ;D  It helped (me, that is) that I was the ship's CO...which made him even crazier.  It was indeed good to be king



MARS, were you peeking at the RCAF’s “Touque, gloves, pockets” flowchart, by any chance? ;D


----------



## Navy_Pete

Got exiled to Ottawa as these were rolled out so curious; what do people were when doing maintenance now?  Can't see any of that flair lasting very long if you are crawling around a diesel or whatnot.

I'm hoping common sense prevails and the naval ensign and other badges that are velcroed on aren't worn at sea.

Also, are these still nomex?

The old ones hang off you like an ugly blind date, but did create some good insulating air pockets if you did get caught in a flash fire.  If that's not really a concern, then my next question would be why bother with the (non-fire rated) flash gear.  :stirpot:


----------



## Stoker

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> Got exiled to Ottawa as these were rolled out so curious; what do people were when doing maintenance now?  Can't see any of that flair lasting very long if you are crawling around a diesel or whatnot.
> 
> I'm hoping common sense prevails and the naval ensign and other badges that are velcroed on aren't worn at sea.
> 
> Also, are these still nomex?
> 
> The old ones hang off you like an ugly blind date, but did create some good insulating air pockets if you did get caught in a flash fire.  If that's not really a concern, then my next question would be why bother with the (non-fire rated) flash gear.  :stirpot:



I would imagine they would wear coveralls for the dirtier jobs and the flairs been around for some time now. Yes the badges are worn at sea.  The new combats are fire rated, in fact the new fleece weather jacket liner can act as a second layer as its fire rated as well.


----------



## stoker dave

While it has been some decades since I was last at sea, I am currently working at a big industrial site where all staff have to wear special, protective clothing as part of the safety procedures.  I will point out there are ZERO exceptions for visiting big-wigs.  Everyone wears the same gear.  

My memory of NCDs is that they were ugly, poorly fitting and ill suited from a safety point of view.  

If these new clothes are less ugly, fit better and provide some improvements in worker safety, and no one is embarrassed to be seen wearing them, then this is a huge step forward.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Actually, Stoker Dave, the NCD were a huge (pronounced "à la Trump!") improvement over their predecessor: The CAF all-polyester work/garrison dress.

However, I am in full agreement that the requirements for a Naval Combat Dress are, in order of importance:

1) Does it protect from known personnel safety risks;
2) Is it easy to maintain; and,
3) is it comfortable to wear.

The good looking part is just a bonus if it can be fitted in there somehow.

I only have one small qualm with the most recent incarnation of the NCD: Navy blue like that, how friggin hot is it going to be if you have to work on deck for a while in Tropical or Equatorial waters?


----------



## daftandbarmy

Dimsum said:
			
		

> It's definitely there.  She probably doesn't have the sea days for it yet.



I'm impressed by the font size on that hat. I can only assume that it has something to do with making sure that the Admiral isn't accidentally assumed to be a General (while wrapped in a ship sailing 500 miles offshore)


----------



## Furniture

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I only have one small qualm with the most recent incarnation of the NCD: Navy blue like that, how friggin hot is it going to be if you have to work on deck for a while in Tropical or Equatorial waters?



My good man you should know one doesn't hunt U-Boats in the North Atlantic(proper navy task) in a uniform appropriate for wear in the Med, Caribbean, South China Sea, Indian Ocean, Arabian Gulf, etc.(the places we actually operationally deploy)


----------



## Stoker

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Actually, Stoker Dave, the NCD were a huge (pronounced "à la Trump!") improvement over their predecessor: The CAF all-polyester work/garrison dress.
> 
> However, I am in full agreement that the requirements for a Naval Combat Dress are, in order of importance:
> 
> 1) Does it protect from known personnel safety risks;
> 2) Is it easy to maintain; and,
> 3) is it comfortable to wear.
> 
> The good looking part is just a bonus if it can be fitted in there somehow.
> 
> I only have one small qualm with the most recent incarnation of the NCD: Navy blue like that, how friggin hot is it going to be if you have to work on deck for a while in Tropical or Equatorial waters?



Its already been trialed in Africa successfully.


----------



## Underway

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I only have one small qualm with the most recent incarnation of the NCD: Navy blue like that, how friggin hot is it going to be if you have to work on deck for a while in Tropical or Equatorial waters?



You take off the top layer and work in a T-shirt like army types.  Which is the intent AFAIK.  Only ones I truly worry about is the FP component.  All that black gear under a black flack jacket/black helmet.


----------



## stoker dave

As I am currently working at a large industrial site, the safety clothing is to protect workers from hazards.  

Workers wear highly reflective clothing to make them more visible to vehicles, crane operators, etc. when working in the dark or low-light conditions.  Collisions between heavy equipment and workers is a major hazard and the safety clothing helps to mitigate that risk  

So while I know there are times when the ships have to be 'dark' I would think there are plenty of times when a bit of extra visibility would be helpful (e.g. night RAS and fueling operations, rescue operations, ship blackout due to power failure, firefighting in the dark, etc.).  It would make it easier to know who was where in the dark.  I am curious if there was any discussion on the risks and benefits of putting some reflective materials on that clothing.  On the plus side, during normal peacetime operations it may improve worker safety but obviously during operations it could be a detriment.  

Any thoughts on how that played out?


----------



## Stoker

stoker dave said:
			
		

> As I am currently working at a large industrial site, the safety clothing is to protect workers from hazards.
> 
> Workers wear highly reflective clothing to make them more visible to vehicles, crane operators, etc. when working in the dark or low-light conditions.  Collisions between heavy equipment and workers is a major hazard and the safety clothing helps to mitigate that risk
> 
> So while I know there are times when the ships have to be 'dark' I would think there are plenty of times when a bit of extra visibility would be helpful (e.g. night RAS and fueling operations, rescue operations, ship blackout due to power failure, firefighting in the dark, etc.).  It would make it easier to know who was where in the dark.  I am curious if there was any discussion on the risks and benefits of putting some reflective materials on that clothing.  On the plus side, during normal peacetime operations it may improve worker safety but obviously during operations it could be a detriment.
> 
> Any thoughts on how that played out?



We do have a new floater jacket that just came out that is more visible with neon yellow on the collar instead of red.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> Picked up the new style floater jacket today, seems heavier than the old one and it came with a fleece liner to wear underneath. The liner can act as your second layer.



The black fleece liner is a great piece of kit!


----------



## dimsum

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> The black fleece liner is a great piece of kit!



Do you need to wear it with a toque and gloves though?   :rofl:


----------



## Furniture

Chief Engineer said:
			
		

> Its already been trialed in Africa successfully.


We also "trialed" CADPAT TW in Afghanistan back in the day... Just because the troops made use of a less than ideal uniform doesn't mean it's a good idea. We spend a lot of time in hot climates, we need a naval operations uniform suited to the task. Removing a black layer to make black t-shirts the outer layer is lazy and quite frankly embarrassing. The Germans have tropical uniforms, and somehow Canada can't make a tropical uniform happen.


----------



## OceanBonfire

https://www.facebook.com/HMCSNCSMCalgary/photos/a.126240937936675/366472837246816/?type=3&theater







https://www.facebook.com/HMCSNCSMCalgary/photos/a.126240937936675/367196863841080/?type=3&theater


----------



## dimsum

Furniture said:
			
		

> We also "trialed" CADPAT TW in Afghanistan back in the day... Just because the troops made use of a less than ideal uniform doesn't mean it's a good idea. We spend a lot of time in hot climates, we need a naval operations uniform suited to the task. Removing a black layer to make black t-shirts the outer layer is lazy and quite frankly embarrassing. The Germans have tropical uniforms, and somehow Canada can't make a tropical uniform happen.



Well, the RCAF has a bunch of tan flight suits in stock...


----------



## OceanBonfire

Besides HMCS Calgary, some sailors on HMCS Ville de Québec are wearing it:

https://www.facebook.com/CRCN.CMRC/posts/2148242915426936?__tn__=-R


----------



## dimsum

Is it just me or does the RCN Chief's shirt look really long compared to the other two?


----------



## Journeyman

Well, you've got NCD, coveralls with jacket, and Arid CADPAT/apparently unbloused.  I like it;  it seems like the Staff said "the Admiral wants a photo op, and the VdQ Capt said "OK, but we've got work to do, don't take up too much of the crews' time."

   ;D


----------



## dimsum

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Well, you've got NCD, coveralls with jacket, and Arid CADPAT/apparently unbloused.  I like it;  it seems like the Staff said "the Admiral wants a photo op, and the VdQ Capt said "OK, but we've got work to do, don't take up too much of the crews' time."
> 
> ;D



I mean, there are Cleaning Stations to be done!   :nod:


----------



## OceanBonfire

NAVGEN 018/18 —  RCN Dress and Clothing Update - 01/2018

12. NAVAL ENHANCED COMBAT UNIFORM (NECU): 
A. USER TRIALS FOR THE FIRST PROTOTYPE UNIFORMS TO REPLACE THE 
CURRENT NCD UNIFORM COMPLETED IN NOVEMBER 2017 
B. BASED ON FEEDBACK FROM THE FIRST USER TRIALLED PROTOTYPE, AN 
UPDATED VERSION WAS PRODUCED AND REVIEWED BY COMD RCN IN JANUARY 
2018. A FURTHER REFINED SPECIFICATION AND THIRD PROTOTYPE IS 
ANTICIPATED TO BE REVIEWED FOR APPROVAL CONSIDERATION IN SPRING 2018. 
CONTINGENT UPON THIS FINAL PROTOTYPE APPROVAL. *IT IS ANTICIPATED 
THAT APPROVED NECU WOULD BE READY TO COMMENCE ISSUE LATE 2019 OR 
EARLY 2020* 
C. PARTICIPANTS OF THE INITIAL NECU TRIAL CONTINUE TO BE AUTHORIZED 
TO WEAR TRIAL NECU 
D. THE NECU WILL CONSIST OF TWO LAYERS (T-SHIRT AND NECU SHIRT) 
RESULTING IN A NAVAL FLEECE TO BE INTRODUCED AS AN INTERMEDIATE 
ARTICLE OF CLOTHING. IT IS ANTICIPATED THAT THIS ITEM WILL BE 
INTRODUCED AFTER NECU IS AVAILABLE
13. NEW SUBMARINE COVERALL: 
A. CURRENTLY FILE IS WITH ADM(MAT) FOR CONTRACTING 
B. IT IS BEING PLANNED TO CONDUCT A PROOF OF CONCEPT TRIAL IN 2018


----------



## daftandbarmy

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Well, the RCAF has a bunch of tan flight suits in stock...



And they are probably flame resistant too, which is awesome, right?


----------



## Stoker

OceanBonfire said:
			
		

> NAVGEN 018/18 —  RCN Dress and Clothing Update - 01/2018
> 
> 12. NAVAL ENHANCED COMBAT UNIFORM (NECU):
> A. USER TRIALS FOR THE FIRST PROTOTYPE UNIFORMS TO REPLACE THE
> CURRENT NCD UNIFORM COMPLETED IN NOVEMBER 2017
> B. BASED ON FEEDBACK FROM THE FIRST USER TRIALLED PROTOTYPE, AN
> UPDATED VERSION WAS PRODUCED AND REVIEWED BY COMD RCN IN JANUARY
> 2018. A FURTHER REFINED SPECIFICATION AND THIRD PROTOTYPE IS
> ANTICIPATED TO BE REVIEWED FOR APPROVAL CONSIDERATION IN SPRING 2018.
> CONTINGENT UPON THIS FINAL PROTOTYPE APPROVAL. *IT IS ANTICIPATED
> THAT APPROVED NECU WOULD BE READY TO COMMENCE ISSUE LATE 2019 OR
> EARLY 2020*
> C. PARTICIPANTS OF THE INITIAL NECU TRIAL CONTINUE TO BE AUTHORIZED
> TO WEAR TRIAL NECU
> D. THE NECU WILL CONSIST OF TWO LAYERS (T-SHIRT AND NECU SHIRT)
> RESULTING IN A NAVAL FLEECE TO BE INTRODUCED AS AN INTERMEDIATE
> ARTICLE OF CLOTHING. IT IS ANTICIPATED THAT THIS ITEM WILL BE
> INTRODUCED AFTER NECU IS AVAILABLE
> 13. NEW SUBMARINE COVERALL:
> A. CURRENTLY FILE IS WITH ADM(MAT) FOR CONTRACTING
> B. IT IS BEING PLANNED TO CONDUCT A PROOF OF CONCEPT TRIAL IN 2018



The naval fleece can act as your second layer of clothing and is being issued now with the new floater coat.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> And they are probably flame resistant too, which is awesome, right?



Sort of...the real protection comes when it is combined with the cotton (well, mostly cotton) baselayer to make the 'dual layer' system air and flight crew wear wear.


----------



## dimsum

Latest, plus pictures in the article.



> Canadian Navy – Naval Enhanced Combat Uniform Update
> 
> The latest version of the Canadian Navy’s Naval Enhanced Combat Uniform goes on trial soon with a Operational Wear test aboard a vessel. The earliest version was quite baggy, based on the Canadian Forces Combat Uniform, but in Black. It proved to be too baggy for use aboard ship. Logistik Unicorp produced the test uniforms and created a more streamlined fit as well as integrating features, like pocket designs, from a proposed next generation combat uniform.
> 
> The Naval Enhanced Combat Uniform is the replacement for the current No 5 Naval Combat Dress. Like its predecessor, it is black in color. However, two fabrics are currently being looked at, Nomex and Kermel, both competing pyramid fabrics with FR properties.
> 
> The shirt features onboard facing zippered Napoleon pockets as well as zippered hand pockets at the waist.
> 
> Additionally, there are zippered bicep pockets on either arm as well as a pile field for insignia.
> 
> One interesting feature is the integrated knee padding. It’s fairly simple and straightforward, but there are accommodations to add additional padding if needed.
> 
> In addition to fabric selection, they also hope to determine whether the trouser will feature a zippered rear pocket.
> 
> If all goes well, a final version will soon become the new No 5 dress for Canadian Navy personnel. Perhaps, some of the features of this uniform will find also their way into the combat uniform worn by ground-based Canadian forces.



http://soldiersystems.net/2019/06/03/canadian-navy-naval-enhanced-combat-uniform-update/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3kO54EO5_HeYT1MscCdQatyjwthUJ8f8e1xvj6KyGJ13fAuPvXpvfn34I


----------



## OceanBonfire

> PO1 Brenda Stevens in her newly issued Naval Enhanced Combat Uniform (#NECU) is part of the latest trial conducted by ADM (Mat). The trial is meant to be the final material verification before it goes into full production. Approx. 400 personnel across the #RCN will take part.
> 
> Trial participants will receive one uniform in each of the proposed textile material. The first is based on the NOMEX textile in wide use in the CAF OP clothing and the second is assessed as having merit for better comfort and wicking.



https://twitter.com/PacFltChief/status/1199736028338065410

https://twitter.com/PacFltChief/status/1199737552535609346


----------



## daftandbarmy

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Latest, plus pictures in the article.
> 
> http://soldiersystems.net/2019/06/03/canadian-navy-naval-enhanced-combat-uniform-update/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3kO54EO5_HeYT1MscCdQatyjwthUJ8f8e1xvj6KyGJ13fAuPvXpvfn34I



Please... someone ... tell me that the Navy's work dress 'knee padding' thing is a joke  :rofl:


----------



## OceanBonfire

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Please... someone ... tell me that the Navy's work dress 'knee padding' thing is a joke  :rofl:



The latest issued CADPAT has them...

My colleagues and I actually put a kneepad in it on the side we usually kneel and love it.


----------



## Spencer100

Must resist "knee pad" jokes....... :rofl:


----------



## OceanBonfire

> *RCN on the road to a new operational dress uniform*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Royal Canadian Navy sailors dressed in the new Naval Enhanced Combat Uniform_
> 
> Did you know the Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) is getting a new operational dress uniform? The current uniform, known as the Naval Combat Dress (NCD), was initially developed in the early 2000s. It is a three-piece uniform made up of a heavyweight jacket with liner, trousers and a lightweight shirt. After almost two decades of use, we are working to see how we can make improvements.
> 
> A sailor%u2019s uniform is a source of pride. Wearing quality, well-fitting equipment and clothing are a boost to morale and enables RCN success on operations, which is what makes this project so important.
> 
> The Department of National Defence and the RCN are currently trialling a new two-piece uniform, consisting of a long-sleeved shirt and pants. This new uniform is known as the Naval Enhanced Combat Uniform (NECU) and will replace the current operational dress. The new uniform will provide increased comfort, performance, and a better, more streamlined fit overall, while functioning in all operational environments. The current shirt and jacket will be replaced with the heavier-weight NECU shirt, which will have a better fit, minimized bulk in the pockets and improved functionality with current and future layers such as the Naval Wind & Rain ensemble. The trousers will have a modern cut and fit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Approximately 400 naval members are currently wearing the new dress as part of the trial. The goal is to make sure that the views and opinions of members are factored into any final decisions.
> 
> A lot of research is going into the new design. Surveys were conducted on the current uniform to identify issues and deficiencies. We undertook gender-based analysis, an important step to making sure we get everything right. In the coming weeks, surveys and focus groups will be conducted to get members%u2019 feedback on the NECU to ensure that deficiencies were addressed.  All this will go a long way towards a final uniform that works well for all members of the RCN, and is well suited for the operational environments and challenges they face.
> 
> If you are a member of the RCN, you can expect to receive your new uniform starting winter 2021 as you replace worn items of the current NCD. We anticipate the RCN should be completely outfitted over the following three years.
> 
> https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2020/02/rcm-road-to-new-operational-dress-uniform.html


----------



## OceanBonfire

Video interview of the new uniform:

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1780852291947


----------



## Eye In The Sky

:facepalm: to both CBC and the comments the Jnr NCOs made.

Uniforms are not "duds".  Can we, as the Armed Forces of our nation, not let CBC say dumb things like that?  This constant struggle to 'be cool' is for wankers.

The RCN Jnr NCM/NCOs really stressed the "hey, it's kinda cool looking and yah it looks cool walkin' around the dockyard" parts.  

Summary;  not sure what that *story* was actually about.


----------



## stellarpanther

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> :facepalm: to both CBC and the comments the Jnr NCOs made.
> 
> Uniforms are not "duds".  Can we, as the Armed Forces of our nation, not let CBC say dumb things like that?  This constant struggle to 'be cool' is for wankers.
> 
> The RCN Jnr NCM/NCOs really stressed the "hey, it's kinda cool looking and yah it looks cool walkin' around the dockyard" parts.
> 
> Summary;  not sure what that *story* was actually about.



First off, I never heard the term "duds" before but it didn't sound like it was meant in a bad way.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Would you say it convey's 'professionalism' in any way?

It should be in an Old Navy commercial perhaps...but an (dare I say...) 'article'...about the RCN?


----------



## CBH99

I'd just chalk it up to CBC trying to sound hip & cool to a younger generation.  I wouldn't overthink it.   :2c:

I haven't heard anybody ever use the word 'duds' before, and I work with a lot of younger folks at my weekend job.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I haven't heard anybody ever use the word 'duds' before, and I work with a lot of younger folks at my weekend job.



We used that word, duds, when I was young. But it didn't refer to anything hip or cool. Rather the opposite: If you were told you wore duds, it meant worn out or ragged clothes. You'd look at a hobo, for instance and say "look at this guy's duds."

I seem to recall it was from Old English, something circa 15th or 16th century.


----------



## Blackadder1916

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I'd just chalk it up to CBC trying to sound hip & cool to a younger generation.  I wouldn't overthink it.   :2c:
> 
> I haven't heard anybody ever use the word 'duds' before, and I work with a lot of younger folks at my weekend job.



Hip and cool . . . younger generation . . .  well if that new, hipper, cooler and younger generation originated in the 16th century and "duds" meant much the same thing back then - clothes.  But if an organization is making such a big deal about getting a new uniform with more bling that a reporter is making a special report then it's not surprising that the news presenter sounds somewhat stupid trying to match the enthusiasm of those with the new duds.

And for those who say they haven't heard that expression before, use the search function and it will come up with several pages of examples from these means.  However those examples will include its use for ammo that didn't go off, individuals who had no potential and as a synonym for clothing.


----------



## Stoker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdhdC0Mbqak&t=5s


----------



## dimsum

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I'd just chalk it up to CBC trying to sound hip & cool to a younger generation.  I wouldn't overthink it.   :2c:
> 
> I haven't heard anybody ever use the word 'duds' before, and I work with a lot of younger folks at my weekend job.



I'm pretty sure the last time I heard "duds" for clothing (as opposed to ammo) was from an old PO about 20 years ago.  If anything, that sounds like the CBC letting their reporter's dad write the headline    ;D


----------



## daftandbarmy

Do y'hear there... do y'hear there.....

FWIW,

Recently, I saw two groups of sailors at lunch on the waterfront. One group was wearing the old work dress, mid-blue shirts tucked into dark blue trousers etc. The other was wearing the new stuff. Both group wore the ball caps.

The people in the new stuff definitely looked sharper and more 'military'. The plethora of patches was slightly disorienting but, if there's a choice to be made about what the crew should be wearing in public, there wasn't much of a contest there IMHO.

That is all....


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Do y'hear there... do y'hear there.....
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> Recently, I saw two groups of sailors at lunch on the waterfront. One group was wearing the old work dress, mid-blue shirts tucked into dark blue trousers etc. The other was wearing the new stuff. Both group wore the ball caps.
> 
> The people in the new stuff definitely looked sharper and more 'military'. The plethora of patches was slightly disorienting but, if there's a choice to be made about what the crew should be wearing in public, there wasn't much of a contest there IMHO.
> 
> That is all....



The old Navy Uniforms are pretty hideous tbh, they don't give off a Military appearance at all.  The new ones are a BIG improvement.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> The plethora of patches was slightly disorienting but...



Seems to be ops normal for the entire CAF and more forces internationally.  Some are resisting successfully (USMC comes to mind).


----------



## OceanBonfire




----------



## FM07

OceanBonfire said:


>


Thanks for posting this.


----------



## estoguy

I like that new NECU. Going to look forward to wearing it soon.


----------



## OceanBonfire

ZNR UUUUU
R 041700Z AUG 22
FM NDHQ C NAVY DGNSR OTTAWA
TO NAVGEN
BT
UNCLAS
NAVGEN 021/22  RCN 029/22
SIC WAN
BILINGUAL MESSAGE/MESSAGE BILINGUE
SUBJ:NAVAL ENHANCED COMBAT UNIFORM (NECU)
REFS: A. NAVORD 5250-0, DRESS REGULATIONS
B. NAVORD 5250-1, NAVAL DRESS COMMITTEE
C. NAVORD 5250-2, PERSONAL APPEARANCE
D. HTTP://RCN-MRC.MIL.CA/EN/DRESS.PAGE
1. THE COMMANDER OF THE ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY (CRCN) IS PLEASED TO
ANNOUNCE THAT THE NAVY OPERATIONAL DRESS WILL BE TRANSITIONING FROM
THE CURRENT NAVAL COMBAT DRESS (NCD) THREE PIECE ENSEMBLE TO THE
NAVAL ENHANCED COMBAT UNIFORM (NECU) TWO PIECE ENSEMBLE *COMMENCING IN
SEPTEMBER 2022*.
2. THE NECU UNIFORM HAS BEEN IN DEVELOPMENT AND EVALUATION SINCE 2016
WHEN THE FIRST CONCEPT UNIFORM WAS REVIEWED BY THE NAVAL DRESS
COMMITTEE AND PRESENTED TO THEN CRCN WHO APPROVED THE NECU CONCEPT.
THE NECU HAS GONE THROUGH SEVERAL PROTOTYPE DEVELOPMENTS AND A
MATERIAL ASSURANCE TESTING FROM 2017 TO 2019 AS WELL AS A USER TRIAL
WITH 400 TRIAL PARTICIPANTS IN NOVEMBER 2019 TO APRIL 2020 TO
FINALIZE THE DESIGN SPECIFICATIONS. BASED UPON TRIAL PARTICIPANTS
USER REVIEW AND INPUT THE FINAL DESIGN WAS APPROVED IN NOV 2020 AND
THE NECU MOVED INTO THE TEXTILE MATERIAL AQUISITION AND UNIFORM
PRODUCTION PHASE. *ONGOING PRODUCTION HAS NOW PROVIDED SUFFICIENT
STOCK TO MOVE INTO THE IMPLEMENTATION PHASE*.
3. THE NECU WILL BE PROVIDED TO NAVAL PERSONNEL THROUGH A HYBRID
ATTRITION PROCESS WITH AN ACCELERATED ISSUE TO SELECT PERSONNEL. THE
ACCELERATED COMPONENT WILL PRIORITIZE FIRST ISSUE TO NEW SAILORS
GRADUATING FROM BASIC MILITARY QUALIFICATION/BASIC OFFICER MILITARY
QUALIFICATION TRAINING AS WELL AS CURRENT SAILORS FROM THE RANK OF
SAILOR 3RD CLASS TO SAILOR 1ST CLASS. NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS AT THE
RANK OF MASTER SAILOR AND ABOVE, AS WELL AS OFFICERS, WILL CONTINUE
TO BE PROVIDED THE LEGACY NCDS UNTIL THE REMAINING WAREHOUSE STOCK
SIZING OF NCDS HAS BEEN CONSUMED. ONCE NCD SIZING STOCK IS CONSUMED,
SAILORS AT THE RANK OF MASTER SAILOR AND ABOVE, INCLUDING OFFICERS,
WILL THEN BE ISSUED THE APPROPRIATE SIZED NECU REPLACEMENT ITEM(S).
AS THIS MAY MEAN THAT SOME NCD ITEMS ARE EXHAUSTED EARLIER THAN
OTHERS, SAILORS WILL BE PERMITTED TO WEAR A MIX OF BOTH NECU AND NCD
ITEMS UNTIL THEY HAVE RECEIVED ALL NECU ARTICLES OF CLOTHING. THAT
IS, IT WILL BE PERMISSIBLE TO WEAR NCD JACKET/SHIRT WITH NECU PANTS
OR VICE VERSA, NECU SHIRT WITH NCD PANTS. AS NCD STOCK IS EXHAUSTED,
OVER TIME, THE RCN COMMUNITY WILL BE FULLY ISSUED WITH THE NECU
ITEMS. *THE HYBRID ATTRITION PROCESS TO TRANSITION FROM NCD TO NECU IS
EXPECTED TO BE COMPLETED IN FY 2025/26*.
4. THE ACCELERATED ISSUE COMPONENT WILL FIRST BE IMPLEMENTED IN
MARITIME FORCES ATLANTIC AND PACIFIC UNITS WITH AN INITIAL STOCK TO
SUPPORT NECU ISSUE TO 500 PERSONNEL PER FORMATION FOLLOWED BY MONTHLY
RATE OF CONVERSION OF 200 PERSONNEL. AS FURTHER STOCK PRODUCTION IS
RECEIVED, THIS ACCELERATED COMPONENT WILL BE EXPANDED TO OTHER
LOCALES TO SUPPORT THE NECU IMPLMENTATION FOR SAILORS 3RD THRU 1ST
CLASS.
5. THE NECU IMPLEMENTATION IS MANAGED JOINTLY BY DIRECTOR OF NAVAL
REQUIREMENTS AND DIRECTOR SOLDIER SYSTEMS PROJECT MANAGEMENT. FURTHER
DETAILED IMPLEMENTATION INSTRUCTIONS WILL BE PROVIDED TO BASE, WING,
ASU AND CFSU/CFSG. OPI FOR QUESTIONS ARE DNR NECU PROJECT DIRECTOR,
MR MARK DE SMEDT, DNR 3-7 MARINER DECK REQUIREMENTS AND DSSPM PROJECT
MANAGER MS LORIANNE HAWDUR DSSPM 2-6 OPERATIONAL CLOTHING


----------



## dapaterson

MS is an appointment, not a rank.  And some of the designations of rank within that message are not legal for use; the O in QR&O stands for order, not Optional; QR&O 3.01 dictates the legal designations of rank for individuals in the RCN DEU, as approved by the Governor General in Council.

#PissingIntoTheWind


----------



## Navy_Pete

If anyone happens to know who the TA is for these could you please send me a PM? Haven't had luck getting info on what they are tested to.


----------



## NavyShooter

I did a search on CGCM for "NECU" and found a list of NSN's...picking a random one, I found that the TA is listed as L319 for NSN 8415-20-013-0111 which is size 6426 "Trousers, Naval Enhance Combat Uniform" listed as "Trousers, Combat"



			http://cgcs.mil.ca/DTICS/SITE/CGCS_Details_e.asp?NSN=8415200130111
		


On a DWAN workstation, you should be able to follow the above link, click on "LEAD TA" (L319) and it will bring up their contact information.

NS


----------



## FSTO

dapaterson said:


> MS is an appointment, not a rank.  And some of the designations of rank within that message are not legal for use; the O in QR&O stands for order, not Optional; QR&O 3.01 dictates the legal designations of rank for individuals in the RCN DEU, as approved by the Governor General in Council.
> 
> #PissingIntoTheWind


Somebody should take this to court and sue the Navy.


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## Navy_Pete

NavyShooter said:


> I did a search on CGCM for "NECU" and found a list of NSN's...picking a random one, I found that the TA is listed as L319 for NSN 8415-20-013-0111 which is size 6426 "Trousers, Naval Enhance Combat Uniform" listed as "Trousers, Combat"
> 
> 
> 
> http://cgcs.mil.ca/DTICS/SITE/CGCS_Details_e.asp?NSN=8415200130111
> 
> 
> 
> On a DWAN workstation, you should be able to follow the above link, click on "LEAD TA" (L319) and it will bring up their contact information.
> 
> NS


Awesome, thanks, I guess I searched for NECU in the wrong field and had nothing come up.


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## dapaterson

FSTO said:


> Somebody should take this to court and sue the Navy.


Or some Admirals should obey law and regulations, and make legal changes through the systems established for that purpose - aka do their job.


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## NavyShooter

Navy_Pete said:


> Awesome, thanks, I guess I searched for NECU in the wrong field and had nothing come up.


CGCS (online version linked) won't let you use a search string less than 5 characters which is why I used CGCM.


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## Eye In The Sky

dapaterson said:


> Or some Admirals should obey law and regulations, and make legal changes through the systems established for that purpose - aka do their job.



That’s not part of “culture change” needed…just dye your hair and be happy in a few weeks.


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## Navy_Pete

NavyShooter said:


> CGCS (online version linked) won't let you use a search string less than 5 characters which is why I used CGCM.


That's clever, thanks for that tip. I was trying the full string, and then brute force by looking for 'shirt' (which yielded 8253 NSNs...)

Always good to have more tools in the toolbox! By the time this is done I may be approaching semi-competence at some LCMM/SM functions!


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## Halifax Tar

NavyShooter said:


> I did a search on CGCM for "NECU" and found a list of NSN's...picking a random one, I found that the TA is listed as L319 for NSN 8415-20-013-0111 which is size 6426 "Trousers, Naval Enhance Combat Uniform" listed as "Trousers, Combat"
> 
> 
> 
> http://cgcs.mil.ca/DTICS/SITE/CGCS_Details_e.asp?NSN=8415200130111
> 
> 
> 
> On a DWAN workstation, you should be able to follow the above link, click on "LEAD TA" (L319) and it will bring up their contact information.
> 
> NS



Are they still sending our the update CDs for the CGCM ?


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## NavyShooter

Halifax Tar said:


> Are they still sending our the update CDs for the CGCM ?


Nope.  It is still available online as a downloadable module from the DWAN though.


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## Navy_Pete

Halifax Tar said:


> Are they still sending our the update CDs for the CGCM ?


Weirdly enough DSCO sends out softcopies of publications on CDs, even though no computers come with CD readers anymore and the USB ones get flagged by IT as illegal devices if you plug them in.

Makes an interesting coaster at the office I guess.


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## SeaKingTacco

Navy_Pete said:


> Weirdly enough DSCO sends out softcopies of publications on CDs, even though no computers come with CD readers anymore and the USB ones get flagged by IT as illegal devices if you plug them in.
> 
> Makes an interesting coaster at the office I guess.


You are kidding me? I can’t get DSCO interested in doing it‘s actually job of printing certain documents that we cannot obtain by any other method and they continue to produce CDs that nobody can read?


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## MJP

SeaKingTacco said:


> You are kidding me? I can’t get DSCO interested in doing it‘s actually job of printing certain documents that we cannot obtain by any other method and they continue to produce CDs that nobody can read?


Printed forms is weird for some reason.  There are about 400ish in the system held as inventory, most of them very dormant with only about 50 that have any sort of regular movement/usage in the past 5 years.  Some are very clearly outdated and/or have electronic equivalents but for some reason we hold onto them.  There is probably solid rationale for keeping some of those as a just in case but the overall file would be so much easier to manage IMHO if they pared down the number they needed to contract/manage!


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## NavyShooter

I was able to contact the 'owner' of one of the forms about 4 years ago and get them to transfer the form from a hard-copy version in triplicate with carbon paper to an online form-fillable PDF that auto-populated from page 1 where you typed into pages 2 and 3 so you didn't have to type the same thing 3 times, or copy/paste.

Minor successes...


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## FSTO

SeaKingTacco said:


> You are kidding me? I can’t get DSCO interested in doing it‘s actually job of printing certain documents that we cannot obtain by any other method and they continue to produce CDs that nobody can read?


1 step forward, 5 steps back. Its the Shared Services Canada way!


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## dapaterson

DSCO is a DND CAF own goal.


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## Navy_Pete

dapaterson said:


> DSCO is a DND CAF own goal.


My favourite is when we submit info for cataloging and it gets stripped out of all the fields and left with some useless description like 'valve', or even more confusing, 'night vision viewers' for the thermal imaging cameras.

Really hate dealing with them most times.


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## Halifax Tar

Navy_Pete said:


> My favourite is when we submit info for cataloging and it gets stripped out of all the fields and left with some useless description like 'valve', or even more confusing, 'night vision viewers' for the thermal imaging cameras.
> 
> Really hate dealing with them most times.



They are they who shall not me mentioned in my realm as well.


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## FSTO

On my flight from Ottawa to Toronto I noticed a RCN LCdr wearing relish. Getting deployed I would assume?


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## Halifax Tar

FSTO said:


> On my flight from Ottawa to Toronto I noticed a RCN LCdr wearing relish. Getting deployed I would assume?



Or employed with a CA organization not unlike myself.  Where I first got to the CBG HQ we had a LT Adj, PO1 Fin and myself.  All Naval folks in CADPAT.


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## FSTO

Halifax Tar said:


> Or employed with a CA organization not unlike myself.  Where I first got to the CBG HQ we had a LT Adj, PO1 Fin and myself.  All Naval folks in CADPAT.


But wearing the combats travelling domestically? Weird.


----------



## Lumber

FSTO said:


> But wearing the combats travelling domestically? Weird.


Why was he wearing uniform at all? Having not worked in the NCR, are flight to/from Ottawa/Toronto so short and frequent that you would potentially be going directly from the flight to your place of business?


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## Halifax Tar

FSTO said:


> But wearing the combats travelling domestically? Weird.



That's the question.  Some people like to be noticed...


----------



## OldSolduer

Halifax Tar said:


> That's the question.  Some people like to be noticed...


And its too noticeable. Security wise its not a good sight.


----------



## FSTO

Lumber said:


> Why was he wearing uniform at all? Having not worked in the NCR, are flight to/from Ottawa/Toronto so short and frequent that you would potentially be going directly from the flight to your place of business?


I’ll confront him. 🤪🤣


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## Furniture

OldSolduer said:


> And its too noticeable. Security wise its not a good sight.


I'm not sure there is much/any security risk in members wearing uniform on business travel. It looks out of place, and draws attention, but beyond the risk of a member having a couple too many wobblies at the bar, there isn't really any risk.


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## SeaKingTacco

Furniture said:


> I'm not sure there is much/any security risk in members wearing uniform on business travel. It looks out of place, and draws attention, but beyond the risk of a member having a couple too many wobblies at the bar, there isn't really any risk.


I occasionally wore CADPAT on commercial flights if I was going straight off the plane into a meeting.


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## FSTO

Lost him in shytehole that is Pearson Airport (gawd that place is a dump now) so I wasn't able to ask what his deal was.


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## Furniture

SeaKingTacco said:


> I occasionally wore CADPAT on commercial flights if I was going straight off the plane into a meeting.


I've travelled in uniform a couple of times, for the same reason.  

I think the CAF should be seen in uniform more often, but I also understand why people prefer to travel in civies.


----------



## dimsum

Furniture said:


> I've travelled in uniform a couple of times, for the same reason.
> 
> I think the CAF should be seen in uniform more often, but I also understand why people prefer to travel in civies.


Hell, I walk to work and would rather change at work, so I don't get accosted by weirdos.


----------



## FSTO

dimsum said:


> Hell, I walk to work and would rather change at work, so I don't get accosted by weirdos.


Are they asking you for a bus ticket?


----------



## Furniture

dimsum said:


> Hell, I walk to work and would rather change at work, so I don't get accosted by weirdos.


I see far more weirdos walking to work downtown than I see in airports... hell, most of the weirdos work int he same building as me.


----------

