# DEO or NCM - Weighing Education vs Preferred Jobs



## mooseontheloose (18 Oct 2013)

Looking for a bit of guidance. After years of personal issues keeping me from considering the CF, I am now seriously contemplating following my father's footsteps (retired after 30 years) by pursuing a career with the CF.

Earlier this year I finished my M.A. in International Affairs after completing a B.A. in History a few years ago. As much as I would love to enter as an Officer, I am having a hard time deciding on trades and entry options.

Officer Trades: Intel, Public Affairs, Signals

NCM Trades: Communicator Research Operator

I called a recruiter on my lunch break today to briefly discuss my options. He told me that both Intel and PA are closed and that those jobs only took one DEO combined this past year. This is basically what I expected. I know Intel is very tough to enter as an external applicant. As for PA, I am not 100% sure that I meet the requirements for DEO. I obviously have the education, but my recruiter wasn't sure if my work experience was acceptable. Regardless, they are both full and I'm not optimistic about them opening.

Of all the CF trades, Communicator Research Operator is probably the most appealing to me - or perhaps tied Intel. More than anything, I want a job that challenges me intellectually and can make use of the analytical and communication skills I developed through my post-secondary education. All of these trades appear to fit the bill, but I am much more interested in CRO than PA.

Lastly, Signals Officer is sort of appealing to me. It's not exactly what I am be looking for, but I have a good technological aptitude and parts of the job description do sound appealing.

What should I do? DEO or NCM?

If DEO, I am applying for Int and PA, for both of which I know my chances are slim to none. My application would essentially be for Signal Officer, but at least I would still retain a long shot chance at the others.

If NCM, I am applying for CRO, which is a job I am extremely interested in. However, there are almost no other NCM trades that appeal to me. If I don't get CRO, I'm kind of left high and dry.

(Note: Due to time constraints I did not get to ask about demand for CRO/Signals Officer)

I don't want my degrees to go to waste, but I am definitely interested in Communicator Research Operator. I'm just not sure it's worth closing the door on Officer just to apply for it.

Thoughts?

Thanks a bunch.


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## Teager (18 Oct 2013)

You should focus on what you want to do more so than I have a degree and don't want to waste it. I'm sure your schooling will always come in handy throughout life. Being an NCM isn't a bad thing and an officer and NCM both have pros and cons. At the end of the day follow what you really want to do despite the chances of getting in. If you don't apply you will never know.

Good Luck.


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## Goose15 (18 Oct 2013)

mooseontheloose said:
			
		

> Of all the CF trades, Communicator Research Operator is probably the most appealing to me - or perhaps tied Intel.  More than anything, I want a job that challenges me intellectually and can make use of the analytical and communication skills I developed through my post-secondary education



If Communicator Research Operator is what you want to do, go for it! You will be challenged intellectually no matter what trade you choose. No need to worry about that!



			
				mooseontheloose said:
			
		

> I don't want my degrees to go to waste, but I am definitely interested in Communicator Research Operator. I'm just not sure it's worth closing the door on Officer just to apply for it.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Thanks a bunch.


A degree is never a waste as knowledge is never useless! Do not get caught up in the idea that enlisting as oppose to commissioning will waste your degree. There are many NCMs who have Masters and some have Ph.Ds as well.


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## Aldaren (18 Oct 2013)

mooseontheloose said:
			
		

> Officer Trades: Intel, Public Affairs, Signals



"Intel" is an American term. The term you want is "Int". Int O, Int Op. 

Int Op is a Occupation Transfer only trade (in the reg force).


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## mooseontheloose (18 Oct 2013)

Thanks guys, basically confirming what I was already thinking.

Growing up I always kept the military idea in the back of my mind, and my parents always told me to go in as an Officer. Since I did get the education, it feels natural to want to enter as an officer.

I'm not sure if Signals Officer positions are still being filled by recruits with unrelated degrees, but I do know the demand seems high. I will need to contact my recruiter again to ask about this.

Communicator Research Operator seems to be similar to some of the civilian jobs I am/was interested in, which is why it appeals to me. But if the chances of getting in as DEO for Signals Officer is higher, the pros probably outweigh the cons.

Just unfortunate that I can't apply for both.


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## Goose15 (18 Oct 2013)

Good luck with your decision! Keep us updated


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## mooseontheloose (19 Oct 2013)

Another layer to the decision.

Based on the descriptions of the jobs, I am fairly confident that the duties of a Communicator Research Operator offers ample transferable skills/experience that could be applied to civilian jobs down the road. I've long been interested in one day working for CSIS or CSE, for example. That isn't necessarily my end game as entering the CF would come with an intent to pursue a long-term career, but recent life events have taught me to not take things for granted and always have backup plans.

Signals Officer is another story. I've tried to read through other threads to get a better idea of what they do day-to-day, but it's a little tough to decipher sometimes. It seems like a more hands-on and technical trade, which might not be a bad thing (although I'm certainly one who enjoys intellectual challenges). But what would a Signals Officer do outside of the CF? The recruiting page doesn't give an real-world examples and the current knowledge I've gained about the daily activities of the trade aren't concrete enough to know how they translate beyond the confines of the Forces.

I'm having a fairly hard time deciding which path to pursue. Pros and cons for both and such.

Thanks


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## Goose15 (19 Oct 2013)

mooseontheloose said:
			
		

> But what would a Signals Officer do outside of the CF? The recruiting page doesn't give an real-world examples and the current knowledge I've gained about the daily activities of the trade aren't concrete enough to know how they translate beyond the confines of the Forces.
> 
> I'm having a fairly hard time deciding which path to pursue. Pros and cons for both and such.
> 
> Thanks



The big thing with trades like this is that they provide you with the leadership and managing skills that many companies look for. These are the big transferrable skills. I am good friends with a career Arty soldier turned officer and he said his experiences taught him how to lead and manage which he uses in his current job. So if you are looking for transferable skills that are tangible there may or may not be many BUT there are many transferable skills that are intangible. As with all interviews it would be about focusing on what you bring to the company


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## mooseontheloose (19 Oct 2013)

True. Trust me, as someone with an Arts degree, I know what you're talking about 

Last question for a while. I've been reading that Comm Research often includes a major delay due to security clearance requirements. Some use that time for 2nd language training (a smart idea) but it's mostly spent on mundane tasks before continuing your career after approval comes through. I'm OK with this, but I'm uncertain of its impact on career progression and promotions. I've heard that most NCM trades offer a path to Cpl 4-5 years after enrolment. How does this downtime impact a career? I admit I'm not too knowledgeable about the training that is being delayed, but my thought is that if I'm stuck waiting a year for clearance then I'm basically a year behind on my career progression. Correct?


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## Goose15 (19 Oct 2013)

Haha very good!  

Basic answer would be yes. You would be slowed down on that career progression if that occurred, as you need to be trade qualified to get promoted. Keep in mind though, no matter how in demand or not in demand an occupation may be (and no matter what occupation it is) there can always be delays whether it be security, number of people waiting to start the course, etcetera. So personally, I would put little weight on this particular point in your decision process but that is just me personally


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## PuckChaser (20 Oct 2013)

Your career progression compared to any other trade that's not waiting security clearance is slow, but no different than any other 291er that has to wait. Cpl is a trade qualified + time in promotion, so you may end up (seen it happen) where you finish your QL3 course as Comm Rsch and are promoted in short order or immediately to Cpl as you've met the time requirement. Individual wait times for clearances can vary, so you may do BMQ/BMQ-L with someone who is also Comm Rsch, but one of you may end up on course before/after them. Anything after Cpl is all dependent on your work abilities, so the long term impact is negligible.


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## Delaney1986 (20 Oct 2013)

I struggled with the same decisions, essentially. I have a degree and everyone around me kept telling me not to waste it. If I could have done DEO Int O, that would have been my first choice, but it wasn't available, as you know. I looked into Comms Research too but it didn't work out for me.

I ended up actually going back to school to get a Diploma so I could apply specifically for MP. It took a lot of thinking, analyzing, etc., but I figured it out eventually. You will too.

Just remember that your degree will help you no matter what you decide, but do something you are passionate about, don't let the Officer vs. NCM thing decide which way you decide to go.

Good luck!


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## mooseontheloose (20 Oct 2013)

Well thanks for replies but I guess it won't work out. Did not realize that my peanut allergy cause me to fail the medical.

Sigh.


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## DAA (21 Oct 2013)

Aldaren said:
			
		

> Int Op is a Occupation Transfer only trade (in the reg force).



Actually, it's not an OT only occupation!  It does sometime open up to civilian applicants but the restrictions are "very tight" (ie; must have former CF Reg or Res F service as an Int Op inorder to be eligible)


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## Goose15 (21 Oct 2013)

DAA said:
			
		

> Actually, it's not an OT only occupation!  It does sometime open up to civilian applicants but the restrictions are "very tight" (ie; must have former CF Reg or Res F service as an Int Op inorder to be eligible)



Speaking of OT only occupations... DAA, I was hoping you could clarify something for me about Clearance Diving. I saw this post:



			
				aesop081 said:
			
		

> The trade is open only to occupational transfers   I.E. people already in the CF and those people must be qualified either Ships diver, port inspection diver or combat diver in order to apply.



And then more recently this one:



			
				Lex Parsimoniae said:
			
		

> There is a selection process that is run for CLDO.  Generally it occurs between CoC II and Director Level.



So from the first quote I gathered that Clearance Diver was its own occupation. Then from second second quote and the thread it was a part of it shows Clearance Diver as a D-Level of the MARS occupation. I was hoping you could clarify what it actually is.


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## DAA (21 Oct 2013)

Goose15 said:
			
		

> Speaking of OT only occupations... DAA, I was hoping you could clarify something for me about Clearance Diving. I saw this post:
> 
> And then more recently this one:
> 
> So from the first quote I gathered that Clearance Diver was its own occupation. Then from second second quote and the thread it was a part of it shows Clearance Diver as a D-Level of the MARS occupation. I was hoping you could clarify what it actually is.



Clearance Diver has the same restrictions similar to Int Op in that Civilian Applicants must already have been qualified as either a Ships Team Diver, Combat Diver, SAR Tech or previously served as a Clearance Diver.  I believe that CLDO is a specialty occupation for Naval Officers.  Not much info available on that one but I am sure someone can provide additional details.

So whilst the CF does "sometimes" recruit for the Cl Dvr occupation from off the street, these opportunities are directed more towards former CF members.


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## CombatDoc (21 Oct 2013)

CLDO is a sub-specialty available only for MARS Officers. Essentially, if you are MARS and interested in becoming a CLDO, then you attempt the selection course - this allows the Clearance Divers to pick their officers. If you want to progress beyond LCdr, then CLDOs need to return to the "mainstream" (usually skimmer fleet) navy in order to advance their careers as MARS Officers.   If, however, you're only interested in diving then you'll stay at the FDUs as a Lt or LCdr.


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## Goose15 (22 Oct 2013)

CombatDoc said:
			
		

> CLDO is a sub-specialty available only for MARS Officers. Essentially, if you are MARS and interested in becoming a CLDO, then you attempt the selection course - this allows the Clearance Divers to pick their officers. If you want to progress beyond LCdr, then CLDOs need to return to the "mainstream" (usually skimmer fleet) navy in order to advance their careers as MARS Officers.   If, however, you're only interested in diving then you'll stay at the FDUs as a Lt or LCdr.



Thanks for the explanation, very clear and concise!  :cheers:


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