# Cadet Officers



## kurokaze

I‘m curious, are cadet officers commissioned officers?

I‘m guessing not, but a cadet mom that was at clothing stores said otherwise.


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## bagpiper

Yes, members of the CIC (Cadet Officers) above the rank of Officer Cadet are Commisioned.


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## kurokaze

Thank You.  Do you happen to know how members of the CIC are trained?  Do they go through basic training as well?


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## Excolis

CIC officers do a different type of training.  we go through a BOQ (Basic Officers Qual) and other courses to achieve rank.  we are all commissioned.  as a member of the CIC we can mustard over to reserv class "B" but would have to be busted down to 2LT and redo all the trainind (battle school ect.)  any other questions, please ask.

cheers


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## CSS Type

Hopefully airborne soon,

Your response is interesting. When you state a member of the CIC and ‘mustard‘ do you mean re-muster? I thought Camps during the summer were rerserve class "B" - does everyone get busted down to 2LT?


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## Excolis

yes re-muster.....that is a term i guess i picked up....     as for class "B"   it is different between CIC and primary reserve.  to my knowledge anyways.  i made a mistake on the post above.  if you are a cic and re-muster (mustard) over to primary reserve, that is where you get busted to a 2Lt.  sorry .


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## primer

As a CIC officer yes we hold the Queens Commission.The BOQ lasts for 8 days or so then your MOC course or maybe JOLC for 17 straight days At Base Borden now being held AT CRPTC here in Ottawa. CIC Officers are a differnet kind of breed. As a cadet unit Co you get 33 days paid but you might do over 150 days during the Training year.All other officers in the unit will get 23 days pay.Lots of CIC officers are Ex Reg force or P Res and parents who get roped in and like what we do for canadian Youth. the CIC is a sub comp of the P Res.Education is not a big thing all you need is your Grade 12 But many Officer have Univercity Degrees. Now dropping in rank to go to the P Res Or even Reg Force yes you might drop in rank but many time I have seen CIC officers who have the education go direct tranfer and still go on there Phase Trg and still keep their rank. If your a cadet you might think that we as CIC are not real officers in the Canadian Forces ask one of your Officers if you can read there commissioning scroll.


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## McInnes

I was told by coarse staff to not salute CIC because they did not hold the queen‘s commision...maybe I misunderstood...


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## primer

If they have bars salute in my mind.

Ruck up and soldier on   :soldier:


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## combat_medic

They do "technically" hold a commission. But the training that they get to receive that commission is a week long, they don‘t require a degree and can be 18 years old. For a lot of NCOs and Officers in the Res or Reg it‘s tough to wrap your head around the fact that you have to salute a teenager fresh out of high school with a week of training, so many don‘t, but you are supposed to, in any case.

As for remustering to PRes or Reg force, nothing in the CIC transfers over. You don‘t get to keep the rank of 2Lt if you don‘t have a university degree, and even if you have the degree, you have to start off at the beginning of training. Essentially, a remuster from the CIC with a degree is the same as joining up as a civilian with a degree; there‘s no advantage.


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## Excolis

CM, when you transfer over you get to keep your 2Lt and commission, but you have to do all the training over, BOTC, Battle school ect.  And we do not "technically" hold a commission, we DO hold a commission.  It is sad, but PRes looks down on us as Reg looks down on you.  I know that there are some CIC out there who shouldn‘t brag about being officers, because they dont look/act like officers.  but there are some out there who do, and some of them used to be real reserve officers (as you would say)  here in windsor, the commandin officer (ex-commanding) LCol transfered to CIC and became a Capt.


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## fusilier955

i think combat_medic was trying to imply with "technically", is that although they are commisioned, they dont command over anyone but cadets and CIC.  and also that in what they do for their commision (the training) is nothing in comparison to PRes or Reg.  so anything they do over in the CIC, other than getting a commision, does not serve them when they move on to bigger and brighter things.


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## primer

What I think is that Reg and P-Res are a little bit ignorant about the CIC.Like what Airborne soon said they look down at us.Yes there are Ocdt‘s in our system think they are the next CDS and only might know the cadet world.I do agree that their are alot of Ret reg Force Officers joinging the CIC movement just to stay in uniform,and there are a lot of good Ret Reg and P res. I personaly know 4. One a Ret Lcol from the Ontario‘s and one Lcol from the Reg force ret nowCommanding officer Of Blackdown cadet Summer Training Center. As a Cic Officer CRA is 65 not 55 or 60. Now as Commanding troops yes we do command cadets. I have personaly commanded P-Res in the last Ice storm  as an LT. as Ex G&SF soldier we are tought basic leadership and command.At CFSAL there are more than 20 CIC officers teaching from ADMIN TO TRAINING and Starands.And now to Fusilies995  a commission cant get you any better things your WRONG your the typicle RES SOLDIER thinking that way> Look at Capt Seebee AS a CIC officer he was a member of the SKY HAWKS. there is a cic officer as the 2ic CPRTC in Ottawa also all staff @ CRPTC are paid from the CADETS BUGET.


Ruck up and Soldier on  :soldier:


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## combat_medic

Primer: before you accuse others of being ignorant, you may want to check your own posts as they are full of spelling and grammatical errors, not to mention the acronyms you are using are inconsistent, or just plain wrong.

As for ignorance, I served with a very large number of CIC officers for an entire summer, and it did nothing but diminish any respect I may have once had for the CIC. They were, to a man, arrogant and inexperienced, and never ceased to attempt to flaunt the miniscule authority that was invested in them. They have no command or jurisdiction in the PRes or Reg Force, and yet each attempted to laud some kind of authority over the PRes members who were stationed there. My medical authority was questioned at every juncture by 18 year old 2Lts without so much as basic first aid. 

Perhaps my experience was unique and the 50 some odd CIC officers were an anomoly, but the only leaders with any professionalism or clout were the PRes NCOs and Reg Force officers who were there. CIC officers are responsible for leading children. PRes and Reg Force are responsible for leading adults. If you were "commanding" troops during the ice storm, then you were out of your jurisdiction and bounds in doing so. CIC officers are not to be leading troops as they have no training outside of the cadet world. I myself, as a corporal, have instructed Lts and Capts from the CIC on basic soldiering skills; things that an untrained private would have known.


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## primer

I do understand what you are saying as I said their are a bunch of bad apples that think they know it all and I would like to say sorry for their actions.most of these kids are doing it for Collage BUCKS> As for teaching CIC (Lts and Capts)you should not be doing that They should be tought by Sr NCM‘s or the Adj so you might have been out of your element just a bit. May I ask what CSTC you were tasked to and what was your tasking.Dont get me wrong i have the utmost respect for the P-Res hence i was one EX M/cpl Inf
G and SF Barrie Ont

Ruck up and Soldier on  :soldier:


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## xFusilier

Let me simply say this.  If you are a CIC officer and you do not like the way the reserve and regular force treat you, take a look at your peers.  When is the last time you saw one of your brother or sister officers do something that was not on.  When you saw them take this action did you allow them to carry on as if they were normal or did you pull them aside and say "hey, that wasn‘t on and this is why".

Having worked as a MCpl at a CSTC I can tell you that the CIC breaks down as follows:

  10-15% of the officers are in it for the kids
  85-90% are in it for themselves

I will tolerate alot from the first 15% for the very simple fact that they are doing thier best to provide the youth of this country with a citizenship and leadership program, the other 85% are a waste of time.  Note this doesnot preclude me from doing my job as best as I can because if I didn‘t I‘d be as big a plug as that 85% I‘ve just talked about.

All in all, the military decided that these people would be officers, and does a horrible job in training them to be that.  

I have worked for CIC officers that in my opinion were excellent officers, but they are, by far, in the minority.

Like I said if you want the CIC to be respected than CIC officers themselves have to make the change in that perception.  The present perception may at times be overstated but it is well earned.


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## fusilier955

xFusilier nice to see more ppl from the PLF in the fourm.


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## Jason Jarvis

Having recently returned to cadets after a 10-year break, I agree 100% with xFusilierâ€™s 15/85 assessment of CIC officers. Those in the 15% who really are there for the cadets tend to be the most professional, while the remaining 85% are useless egotists who need a good pounding.

I recently found out that one of my old squadron mates is now a CIC major. Heâ€™s 30! He was a two-bit, backstabbing sh*tpump ten years ago, so you can imagine how I felt when I heard he was a major. I know for a fact that heâ€™s only in it for the personal glory, and I totally understand why any member of the PRes or RegF would have no patience with him. For me, anyways, he represents all thatâ€™s wrong about the CIC.

There are lots of good people in the CIC, but I canâ€™t say that theyâ€™re all good officers. During my time as a cadet I always listened more to the PRes and RegF NCOs than the officers (CIL at the time), and a man that I feel played a formative role in my personal development was an air force reserve MWO â€“- thanks Gerry, blue skies forever -- who caused nothing but trouble all summer because almost all the officers on the course were tools.

Do former PRes and/or RegF personnel make better officers? Not necessarily, but they at least understand how the real military works and so are often able to make things happen more quickly and smoothly.


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## combat_medic

primer: no names, no pack drill


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## Excolis

thanks for a little back primer, and i just want to point out once again that a commission is a commission, no matter how you look at it.  they are all signed by the same people and read the same thing.  and i totally agree that there are a lot of CIC out there that shouldn‘t be in a uniform, but hey, you can‘t destroy the whole crop just because of a few bad apples.  thats all i am trying to get accross.


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## Harris

All,
This argument has been going on for some time.  Let me clarify it for those of you who seem to be having some problems understanding.

Anyone, be it Reg Force, Pri Reserve, or CIC who has been comissioned is in fact an Officer and entitled to all the rights, privledges and responsibilities that go with it.

They are all to be saluted and they all have the authority given to them by their rank.  How they got that rank has nothing to do with it.  Unfortunately in all 3 organizations there are people wearing bars who never should have.

Arguing about CIC vs Pri Reserve vs Reg Force is just as bad as arguing Combat Arms vs Non-combat arms Officers.

The final line is that an Officer is an Officer.  You don‘t have to respect that Officer, but you do have to obey lawful commands given by that Officer no matter how they got to be an Officer.  When you salute an Officer you are saluting the Queens Comission, not the individual.  Hopefully given time and effort on their part, they will earn respect from those they command.

Cheers


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## Infanteer

> As a CIC officer yes we hold the Queens Commission.The BOQ lasts for 8 days or so then your MOC course or maybe JOLC for 17 straight days At Base Borden now being held AT CRPTC here in Ottawa. CIC Officers are a differnet kind of breed. As a cadet unit Co you get 33 days paid but you might do over 150 days during the Training year.All other officers in the unit will get 23 days pay.Lots of CIC officers are Ex Reg force or P Res and parents who get roped in and like what we do for canadian Youth. the CIC is a sub comp of the P Res.Education is not a big thing all you need is your Grade 12 But many Officer have Univercity Degrees. Now dropping in rank to go to the P Res Or even Reg Force yes you might drop in rank but many time I have seen CIC officers who have the education go direct tranfer and still go on there Phase Trg and still keep their rank. If your a cadet you might think that we as CIC are not real officers in the Canadian Forces ask one of your Officers if you can read there commissioning scroll.


Whew, sounds tough, are they just giving away the Queen‘s Commission now?
I think I would have a harder time finding one on EBay.



> Anyone, be it Reg Force, Pri Reserve, or CIC who has been comissioned is in fact an Officer and entitled to all the rights, privledges and responsibilities that go with it.
> 
> They are all to be saluted and they all have the authority given to them by their rank. How they got that rank has nothing to do with it. Unfortunately in all 3 organizations there are people wearing bars who never should have.
> 
> Arguing about CIC vs Pri Reserve vs Reg Force is just as bad as arguing Combat Arms vs Non-combat arms Officers.
> 
> The final line is that an Officer is an Officer. You don‘t have to respect that Officer, but you do have to obey lawful commands given by that Officer no matter how they got to be an Officer. When you salute an Officer you are saluting the Queens Comission, not the individual. Hopefully given time and effort on their part, they will earn respect from those they command.


Find me the section in the Regulations that says a Cadet Officer has any legal authority over me.  Then, find anyone in the military who would back a cadet officer over any of his troops on a decision.  

Here is where the word "technical" comes in.  Remember, respect is something earned, and to me eight days and an additude just don‘t cut it.


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## fusilier955

well put Infanteer.


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## Vigilant

Thank God for the Chain of Command.

I wouldn‘t want to take orders from a CIC Officer.


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## primer

The final line is that an Officer is an Officer. You don‘t have to respect that Officer, but you do have to obey lawful commands given by that Officer no matter how they got to be an Officer. When you salute an Officer you are saluting the Queens Comission, not the individual. Hopefully given time and effort on their part, they will earn respect from those they command.

Thats all that needs to be said 

Ruck up and Soldier on


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## primer

Thanks to Harris for the quote.

Ruck up and Soldier on


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## Jason Jarvis

Well, I went and stirred things up in the wardroom section of Cadetworld.com, an instructors-only forum on the site. I don‘t know if you can click through via this link:

 http://cadetworld.com/cwforums/showthread.php?t=19250&page=1&pp=25 

but if you can I think their comments would do quite a lot to improve some attitudes towards the CIC.

These folks are part of the 15% who are dedicated professionals and who have the experience and wisdom that the CIC needs right now. They understand some of the reservations the PRes and RegF have about cadets and "cadet officers", and work d*mn hard to be the best officers they can be.


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## primer

15% if we are lucky. We few dont do it for the monie.We do it for the Youth and the future of our great nation.

Ruck up and Soldier on


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## combat_medic

Primer: CIC officers have NO jurisdiction within the PRes or Reg Force, and therefore EVERY SINGLE COMMAND would be unlawful. The moment a CIC officer gives a command outside of the cadet world, it is an unlawful command. The only exception to this would be when a PRes or Reg soldier is posted or attached to a cadet unit.

8 days in CIC world = 2Lt
10 weeks in PRes = untrained Pte

...I would rather be following the Pte.


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## Excolis

a commission is a commission.  sure they might be trained different (PRes/CIC) but they are all the same when it comes down to the scroll.  i really get pissy when i hear all you PRes talking down to CIC.  it is because of you we have problems, and in response to an earlier comment, i know plenty of PRes that would follow the command of CIC, before PRes.


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## xFusilier

> CIC officers have NO jurisdiction within the PRes or Reg Force, and therefore EVERY SINGLE COMMAND would be unlawful. The moment a CIC officer gives a command outside of the cadet world, it is an unlawful command. The only exception to this would be when a PRes or Reg soldier is posted or attached to a cadet unit.


Wrong,

From a strictly  *legal* and I say again  *legal* standpoint, by whoch I am not going to enter into the arena of military curteousy:

Section 83 of the National Defence Act places an onus on all soldiers to obey all lawful commands given by superior officers. s.19.015(B)QR&O‘s clearly articulates when a soldier is justified in disobeying a command:   





> In a situation, however, where the subordinate does not know the law or is uncertain of it he shall, even though he doubts the lawfulness of the command, obey unless the command is manifestly unlawful.


To further clarify, s.1.02 QR&O defines "superior officer" as   





> any officer or non-commissioned member who, in relation to any other officer or non-commissioned member, is by the National Defence Act, or by regulations or custom of the service, authorized to give a lawful command to that other officer or non-commissioned member;


So to put it practically:

You are standing around the back of the armouries on a parade night having a smoke, and In walks 2Lt Half-Trained of the CIC.  Mr. Half-Trained says "Cpl. Bloggins empty that butt can".

The law says, the man holds the Queens Commision (ie. he has a lovely sutible for framing, document hanging on his "I love me" wall in the den making him a trusty friend of Her Majesty) he is therefore under the customs and traditions of the service authorized to give a lawful command.  Mr. Half-Trained did not ask you to break the law or commit an act that you believe to be manifestly unlawful (ie. "hey, Cpl go take your C-9 go knock over the 7-11 and bring me back some smokes").  You are legally obliged to empty the butt can and are liable to charge and conviction under the NDA for failure to do so.

Nothing on the other hand prevents you from emptying the butt can and then going and telling your PL WO what 2LT Half-Trained just did and sitting back and watching the feathers fly, however.

If any body has a different interpretation feel to fire away QR&O‘s


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## xFusilier

> a commission is a commission. sure they might be trained different (PRes/CIC) but they are all the same when it comes down to the scroll. i really get pissy when i hear all you PRes talking down to CIC. it is because of you we have problems, and in response to an earlier comment, i know plenty of PRes that would follow the command of CIC, before PRes.


1. Very few, if any pers on this forum have stated that a CIC commision is not a commision.

2.  If you get all pissy over the fact that people say things you don‘t like, I would suggest that you change your handle to "hopefully airborne never" because you will lack the intestinal fortitude required to survive CPC.

3.  The reason that the CIC has problems is because they do not prepare their members to be  *officers*.  As a result the CIC gets a bad rap because a large portion of them deport themselves in a manner that would be deplorable for a week one basic training candidate let alone an individual who holds a commission.   *You, are a CIC officer, you can either suck it up and try your hardest to help fix the problem* or you can be one of those people who simply sits back and complains that the RegF and the PRes are "mean" to you.

4.  As for knowing plenty of PRes that would follow a CIC officer over a PRes pers.  Let me simply put it this way, I spent 16 weeks learning how to lead (Res Inf QL6A) (and I still don‘t have it cracked),  that is 14 times longer than the present CIC BOQ.  At the time I was in the majority of Junior Infantry Officer had 52 weeks training.  So you won‘t mind me if I classify the last statement as ancedotal BS.

5.  Lastly the CIC has a very important job to do.  But like I said the mark of an officer is when they put the people that they lead (the youth) ahead of themselves.  The ones that put the youth ahead of themselves are in my opinion in the minority.


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## combat_medic

OK, now we‘re going to do the QR&O thing. We‘ll let‘s start out with the fact that cadets and the CIC are governed by CATOs and not by the QR&Os look it up here. However, the closest regulation I could find relates to the Canadian Rangers, who share the same type of relationship with the CF as the cadets do and it‘s located  here .


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## xFusilier

Of course we will get into the QR&O‘s you made a statement of military law, one that IMHO cannot be justified.

First of all, while the activities of Cadets are governed by the CATO‘s.  The QR&O‘s apply to members of the CIC.

s.2.034 of the QR&O‘s define the reserve force para c) states that the CIC forms a component of the reserve force.

s.1.03(c) QR&O‘s states that the QR&O‘s and therefore the NDA apply to "members of the Reserve Force when subject to the Code of Service Discipline".

Furthermore

s.1.02 QR&O‘s defines officer simply as "a person who holds Her Majestyâ€™s commission in the Canadian Forces".

Therefore we can say from a legal standpoint that

1.  The QR&O‘s apply to members of the Reserve Force when subject to the code of service discipline.

2.  The CIC forms a component of the Reserve Force

3.  As CIC Officers hold HM‘s commision, purusant to the QR&O‘s CIC officers fall under the same definintion of officers commisioned to the Regular or Special Force.

The case in QR&O 3.295 is specific only to the Canadian Rangers.

Nothing you posted stated

a) that CIC are not subject to the NDA, or

b) that CIC are no construed to be officers in the CF, and therefore entitled to complement or that their orders are immediatley construed not to be lawful


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## primer

Can we all play in the same sandbox. There are good and bad points to this. Some soldiers hate CIC officers or just hate Officers and then Some Like CIC and other Officers. But let me tell you This as an Officer In the Canadian Forces and hold the Queen‘s Commission If i see something that is not being done by the book or any type of misconduct (Reg - P-Res ) I will tell you once and if i have to say it again look out. It will be Name Rank and Service number ID CARD. Then the Sr NCM will talk and god knows youll listen to him/her.


Ruck up and Soldier on
  :soldier:


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## Infanteer

The Garrison Gods have spoken...

I could really care less about Cadet officers because they are a 0 factor in my work environment, the field.


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## Excolis

look, i am not saying that all officers in the PRes/reg are worse than CIC.  i just said that i know a lot of people that have more respect for CIC officers and would rather follow them then many of the PRes officers.  i went to school with a few 2Lt‘s in PRes, and i know for a fact that they couldn‘t find there way out of a wet paper bag.  and i take constructive critisism very well.  all i was trying to say, is that if the PRes would take there heads out of their asses, and give a little respect, i am sure that CIC/PRes would have a better relationship.  I see it as three brothers. Reg force is the oldest, PRes middle, and CIC youngest.  the Reg force looks down on the PRes, and the PRes looks down on the CIC.  The way i look at it is the Reg Force gets there best recruits from the PRes, and the PRes gets theres from the cadets.  things would run much smoother if we all worked together.


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## Jarnhamar

Hopeful. You know people who would rather "follow" a CIC officer. I gotta wonder what you mean by follow. Like follow one of these guys on a navagation excersise, follow them on a shower parade, follow them ‘into combat‘?  Theres plenty of people who do their own thing. ****  remember those idiots who thought there were aliens behind that comet a few years back?

CIC officers get a fancy piece of paper, 8 days training and vola.  Thats all well and great but when it comes down to it (dispite the kids who would prefer to follow them or whatever) they ARE in charge of kids. The army reckognizes them having a commision but it‘s a little far fetched to try and include them in your 3 brother system. They have no capacity to lead soldiers in a war time situation and i know for a fact that a CIC officer will be charged for teaching a group of cadets how to do a section attack because they want to play soldier and don‘t see the harm in it.


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## Excolis

i never said we teach section attacks...and just for a quick fact.  you can join the PRES at age 16.  cadets goes till 19b-day.  PRes teaches children to.  same stuff different environment.  and the brother system i was talking about sure as ****  works.  and that is how the system runs, just like a conveyor belt.


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## fusilier955

Try walking up to a Reg force CWO and order him around, see how far your authority gets you.


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## Jarnhamar

Your right hopeful.

Cadets get taught the same thing as soldiers. I‘m sorry i doubted you. I don‘t have as much time in as you so looking back in hindisght theres no way i could know wether your converyer belt works or not.  When i get your kinda TI i‘ll come up with something clever too. I look forward to when i‘m in bosnia or afghanastan and i see you driving into my camp i get the chance to salute you.
"There goes the best **** CIC officer on operations" i‘ll say.

I salute you sir.
(Because i have a feeling it might be lost on you i was being sarcastic, nothing personal but you just don‘t know what your talking about. Happens all the time)
With that i‘ll leave the conversation as it‘s rude of me to argue on the cadet forum when i‘m not a part of it. If you‘d like to continute the argument (with me anyways) find me on the infantry or army area.


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## Infanteer

> look, i am not saying that all officers in the PRes/reg are worse than CIC. i just said that i know a lot of people that have more respect for CIC officers and would rather follow them then many of the PRes officers. i went to school with a few 2Lt‘s in PRes, and i know for a fact that they couldn‘t find there way out of a wet paper bag. and i take constructive critisism very well. all i was trying to say, is that if the PRes would take there heads out of their asses, and give a little respect, i am sure that CIC/PRes would have a better relationship. I see it as three brothers. Reg force is the oldest, PRes middle, and CIC youngest. the Reg force looks down on the PRes, and the PRes looks down on the CIC. The way i look at it is the Reg Force gets there best recruits from the PRes, and the PRes gets theres from the cadets. things would run much smoother if we all worked together.


I see cadets are smoking crack these days....


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## Harris

Gentlemen/Ladies,

Lets let this thread die shall we?  I think we can all agree that there are good and bad Officers/NCO‘s/Soldiers in all organizations.  Some may or may not have a higher ratio than others.

Arguing about who will follow who, my dad is bigger than your dad, etc...  is frankly as waste of ime on this forum.  If you want to continue this in the off topic forum please do so.

In a nutshell an Officer is an Officer no matter how they got their comission.  Reg Force troops will normally be commanded by Reg Force Officers and Reserve Troops will normally be commanded by Reserve Officers and Cadets will normally be commanded by CIC Officers.  The point that has to be made is that if an Officer was put in charge of a body of Troops outside his/her normal element, they are obligated to follow his/her commands just as if they were issued by thier "own" Officers.  It‘s not optional, nor up for debate.  You can be charged for disobeying a lawful command from any Officer, not just those within your element.  If you think that is not the case be prepared to test your theory the next time you ignore a lawful command from some one.

In the same vein it does not behove any Officer to throw his/her authority around outside his/her element unless they have specifically been give then authority to do so.  I‘m a reserve Officer and I would never consider going onto a Base and start ordering Reg Force troops around (with the exception of witnessing a dangerous situation or fray) unless I had been given command of these troops.  Like wise I would never go to the local Cadet Corp and start to order the cadets and staff around.  Again unless I had been given authority over these individuals or I saw a dangerous situation.  I would not stand for a Reg force Officer or CIC Officer to do anything similar with my troops either unless they too had been given authority by me or my Chain of Command.

Some of the situations people mention above to prove their point are ludicrous.  Does anyone really think that a CIC Officer will somehow be sent overseas as a Platoon Commander?  Or that a Reserve or CIC Officer will just walk up to a Snr NCO of either the Reg Force or Reserve and start ordering him around?  Come on people.

I think some of the people on this board need to grow up and realize that just because they are in the environment they are in, everyone not in that environment is somehow "less" than they are.  We all have stories of, "I met this reg force/Reserve/CIC Officer who was so bad...".  Deal with it people.

The orginal point of this thread was that CIC/Reserve/Reg Force Officers are all equal in the eyes of the Regulations.  You must salute them, and you must follow any lawful command issued by them.  In all likelyhood, you will usually only deal with your own element of Officers, but there probably will come a time when you may have to deal with someone from another element.  Hopefully you both will be professional enough to deal with the situation.  If the Officer is not, then you should show your professionalism by not dropping to that level yourself.


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## Excolis

Well put Harris.  that is exactly what i have been trying to say.


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## primer

Dito Harris, Hopefully airborne soon said it. Thats what we were trying to say.


Ruck up and Soldier on
  :soldier:


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## J Pasco

I can't believe this post. I'll put it this way, CIC are officers are technically commissioned officers. Much to the chagrin of real officers. This is likely the result of so many incidents over the years of impropriety between adults and the children those "officers" were supposed to lead and mentor, not bed.
Although yes technically CIC officers are commissioned officers, and everyone is supposed to salute them, it is a frequently ignored rule. Let us compare. A real officer is a leader of men & women and a manager of the application of violence in the name of government they serve. They work tirelessly to train themselves and the people under their command. A CIC officer's work involves going to camp. Now I don't doubt that they work long hours, but what really are they leading; my 14 year old sister babysits the children next door. 
To the point that the proud CIC officer is making that there is lots of bad apples in the PRes and RegF, i will agree to. The only difference is that every one of those 'bad apple" PRes/RegF Officer/NCMs has at least done more than 8 days of training to get their trade qualification, and half of it wasn't how not to look like a fool in uniform.
A Maj/LCdr in the CIC gets promoted based on the number of Cadets in the unit that they "command" not on their competence. Sometime that goes hand in hand, but often not. 
I had the unfortunate opportunity to observe Cadet officers in action at RMC one summer. They took every opportunity to chase salutes from every obliged person on the peninsula. Routinely jacking up the RMC cadets who were diligently going about their studies on how to be REAL leaders of service people. 
Any young Cpl out there, I implore you. Just capitulate to them. Give them a salute that's what they value the most. They draw all their power from bossing young kids around. How hard is it to pick them up for not shining their shoes. I mean I would expect the same skill set in a Company Commander of the RCR. They are after all equal, oh wait not a chance. Like I said, just give them a salute and know it doesn't mean anything, but don't listen to their stories that there are plans in Ottawa that they will be called into action on bases around the country should we ever go into a protracted war. There are no such plans. It's all a figment of their imagination, an urban legend if you will. It makes them think they are real officers.


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## 63 Delta

Wow, your first post is to a topic that has been dormant fro 6 years. Talk about pathetic. You are definitely a troll and this should be deleted.


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## Roy Harding

J Pasco:

Why, oh why, oh why, would you (presumably a grown man - don't really know, your profile is empty), go to a _CADET_ forum, and lash out at people who've never done you any harm - especially on a thread that's been dormant for almost six years?

This is a classic example of "trolling".

Seeing as how you're new around here - consider this you're freebie regarding trolling.

I strongly suggest you have a read here:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html BEFORE proceeding any further on these forums.


Roy Harding
Milnet.ca Staff


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## Jarnhamar

Seems a lot of adults without anything to do with the cadets enjoy posting on their boards.

Roy I agree his first post is scathing (though he brought up valid points). Is it better to ressurect a 6 year old post like this or start a new post and be told to do a search?

I'm guessing new members don't sit there and sift through every post from the last 6 years. Perhaps he did a search saw something that caught his eye and wanted to chime in?

I'm not sure the resurrect/new post etiquette. The post while bringing up true points doesn't seem to be in the form of an argument as much as an i hate CIC flavor though.


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## Burrows

Alright, we've beat this topic down in many incarnations.  It looks like we seem to have missed one of many threads that needed locking at some point.

CIC Officers are "Real Officers" as an officer serves under the Queen's Commission which they receive.  They don't command men, but then again, does that mean the Executive Assistants at NDHQ aren't "Real Officers" either?


Locked.

Milnet.ca Staff


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