# salute women who board a vessel?



## MC (4 Jul 2005)

Hey, 

Im sure this has posted on this forum before, but I dont have time to look for it as I am on my IAP course in St-Jean. Anyway, I openned my big mouth in class and asked this question so my captain retorqued that I had to find the answer before wednesday morning. So if someone could just briefly inform me on this Id be eternally in debt.

Sorry again and thanks for any replies


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## bob the piper (4 Jul 2005)

There was a thread about this a while back if you want to search. I think it was in one about saluting officers in a hallway.  If thats any help at all. ;D


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## FSTO (5 Jul 2005)

In the days of the all male Navy, it was pretty easy; a woman crosses the brow you salute her. Now, your brow staff has to be aware who are guests, wives, female officers and regular sailors in civies. 
The rule is:
Salute - civilian women
 - all officers


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## MC (5 Jul 2005)

Thanks!

cheers


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## Ex-Dragoon (5 Jul 2005)

Another good rule of thumb is if you don't recognize the lady coming onboard you would not be in the wrong by saluting her. However, its a custom that seems to have fallen by the wayside since I got in back in '94.


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## Cloud Cover (5 Jul 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> Another good rule of thumb is if you don't recognize the lady coming onboard you would not be in the wrong by saluting her. However, its a custom that seems to have fallen by the wayside since I got in back in '94.



Wayside would be a pretty impressive boarding that would require a salute out of respect for pure athletic prowess!! Dockside, however, would be more routine. ;D


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## hugh19 (5 Jul 2005)

Or you could do what I do. Don't salue them unless there officers.


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## FSTO (5 Jul 2005)

sledge said:
			
		

> Or you could do what I do. Don't salue them unless there officers.



they're or they are.
Where did you go to school? Saltspring Island?


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## Cloud Cover (5 Jul 2005)

or, "they are with"


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## Strike (6 Jul 2005)

> or, "they are with"



...in which case you are no longer saluting the woman but you ARE saluting the officer she is with.  Confused yet?


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## alan_li_13 (6 Jul 2005)

Wow, this is interesting...so is it like this? My mom comes onto a ship, sailors have to salute her?   That would confuse the heck out of her. Ok, so how does she have to respond if someone salutes her. Also, since this is a tradition from back when it was an all-male navy, what would the female sailors do?


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## hugh19 (6 Jul 2005)

Thanks for the heckling. Females are supposed to salute females who come on board.


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## Cloud Cover (6 Jul 2005)

I dunno: in the old days we would have saluted the wife of the CO coming across the brow alone, and the wife of a P.O.- not out of protocol but out of respect for the spouse of a person who has earned RHIP rather than had it granted by way of commission. I guess it was one of our many ways of taking small pot shots at the officers. [cringing as I see FSTO lurking in the background!!]

On the other hand, there were no female ncm person any ships I was on, but if there were I am quite certain they would not be saluted coming aboard in civilian attire- so it wasn't a pure gender issue. I know there were female navy reservists on the gate vessels, but we in the regs completely ignored what they were up to ...    

I would imagine the Navy of today would not permit such un-pc tomfoolery.


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## FSTO (6 Jul 2005)

aspiring officer said:
			
		

> Wow, this is interesting...so is it like this? My mom comes onto a ship, sailors have to salute her?   That would confuse the heck out of her. Ok, so how does she have to respond if someone salutes her. Also, since this is a tradition from back when it was an all-male navy, what would the female sailors do?



Some would smile, some would look perplexed, some would give the awkward Bill Clinton salute, some would giggle, and some would say thank-you. 
In todays Navy, ships company member worth their salt would know the people on their own ship. Therefore they would know which women were NCM or NCO's in civilian dress. Female rates from other ships should have the smarts to indicate to the brow staff that they do not warrant a salute.


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## kj_gully (8 Jul 2005)

Let's see, thinking back to my saluting test in cornwallis, I believe the order is written that CF personell _may salute a lady that he is familiar with. I can't believe I am involving myself in this...._ by extension, if you don't know her you are not to salute her, so all problems solved.


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## FSTO (9 Jul 2005)

kj_gully said:
			
		

> Let's see, thinking back to my saluting test in cornwallis, I believe the order is written that CF personell _may salute a lady that he is familiar with. I can't believe I am involving myself in this...._ by extension, if you don't know her you are not to salute her, so all problems solved.



This thread is about when women cross the brow to come on board a warship.


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## Chummy (12 Sep 2005)

For what it's worth, I think the tradition extends from the days when one would tip one's hat to a lady... the salute in the Navy evolved from putting the hand to the peak of the headdress, which in turn evolved from tipping the hat. So, by extenstion, one salutes ladies crossing the brow, since it was polite to tip your hat to them. Hopefully people, female members included, will continue to salute women (other than CF NCM's) when they cross the brow, as a "tip of the hat" to history and a Naval tradition, rather than sacrificing the tradition on the altar of political correctness.


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## Michael OLeary (12 Sep 2005)

Regarding the saluting of women when they board ship: While the Navy may have a particular custom, it is not in the Drill Manual that I can find, perhaps one of the sailors on the forum can cite a reference. There is no mention of such a tradition in _Customs and Traditions of the Canadian Armed Forces_, by E.C. Russell (1980). The only applicable mention in the Manual of Drill and Ceremonial is:



> A-PD-201-000/PT-000
> THE CANADIAN FORCES MANUAL OF DRILL AND CEREMONIAL
> 
> CHAPTER 1 - INTRODUCTION
> ...


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## Chummy (12 Sep 2005)

Without doing a pile of research, I couldn't find a written source for the tradition, but it was taught to me at my unit, and on BOTC. Perhaps it is an unwritten custom. Looking at your drill manual cite, since a member MAY salute a civilian, it seems that it does not contravene anything to observe this tradition. At least as compelling is the direction from the Senior Watchkeeper, with authority of the XO and Captain, that we SHALL do so... ;-)


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## Neill McKay (12 Sep 2005)

I don't have a copy at hand, but I believe Arbuckle's Customs and Traditions of the Canadian Navy discusses this practice.  (Look for a revised edition of that book in the next few years, by the way!)  Does anyone have a copy of the Manual of Ceremonial for HMC Ships, Submarines, and Naval Reserve Divisions?  That would be a good source for something like this.


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## NCRCrow (16 Sep 2005)

the americans salute everyybody coming onboard....

I think it is sharp to salute civ women coming onboard. It projects a good image and an element of tradition.


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## axeman (16 Sep 2005)

welll on the Ottowa it's the rule All women are saluted. ive seen a few Q.M's  brow watchkeeper get jacked for not doing it . well every ship is diffrnt though


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## NCRCrow (16 Sep 2005)

Ottowa.....HMCS Ottawa...could not help it, as I am home doing PDR's.


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## geo (16 Sep 2005)

Saluting of ladies was/is not restricted to the Navy.
As was pointed out - it's like the tipping of hat to a lady (ever tried to tip a beret?)


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## axeman (16 Sep 2005)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Ottowa.....HMCS Ottawa...could not help it, as I am home doing PDR's.


potatoes potaytoes" the" vs" hmcs " there is only one Ottawa in the naval service unless you mean in Ottawa. you dont serve on the Ottawa you serve on Ottawa .  isnt that the way it is . sorry for the typos as i need to order a special tyoeing wand as my fingers are so fat


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## Neill McKay (16 Sep 2005)

If we want to go all purist about it, you serve in a ship, not on one (just as you live in a house, not on one...).  So one might serve in HMCS Ottawa.  "On the Ottawa" sounds a bit American.

(By the way, if MS Bagley [BOSN] is still in that ship, please tell him I said hi.)


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## NCRCrow (16 Sep 2005)

just have a little bit of respect for the ship and at least spell it right.

the Spell check (Stbd aft) works excellent


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## Ex-Dragoon (16 Sep 2005)

Back on topic please.


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## NCRCrow (16 Sep 2005)

Roger Wilco out


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## NavyGirl280 (13 Oct 2005)

My husband is on HMCS Iroquois. I usually only go on ship when he's duty and on the brow. When I come on board he always salutes myself. I was kind of shocked the first time this took place, however, now I am more accustomed to it. From what I can remember though, he is the only one who salutes me when I come on board, even if there is another male on the brow with him. I have come aboard ship when theres a female on brow with him and once again, nothing from her. So .... I don't know    :


S.Bradbury


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## George Wallace (13 Oct 2005)

The Senior person salutes.  If they were his subordinants, only he would salute.  If they were all of the same rank, the person to first 'notice' you would salute, the remainder should come to Attention.


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## Michael Dorosh (13 Oct 2005)

kj_gully said:
			
		

> Let's see, thinking back to my saluting test in cornwallis, I believe the order is written that CF personell _may salute a lady that he is familiar with. I can't believe I am involving myself in this...._ by extension, if you don't know her you are not to salute her, so all problems solved.



the exact wording used to be "female acquaintances'.


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## armyvern (13 Oct 2005)

I don't know if the tradition continues...I assume it still would.

Back in my Halifax days, prior to heading out Pub Crawling etc we would always visit one of the ships first. Even though most of the Ship's Companies were familiar with our friendly faces and knew we were in the Military, if I was in civies, I was always saluted...made me mad as heck but hey, that's their tradition and their turf.


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## Gunner (13 Oct 2005)

> if I was in civies, I was always saluted...made me mad as heck but hey, that's their tradition and their turf.



Why?  Didn't you want to be thought of as a lady?


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## armyvern (13 Oct 2005)

Gunner said:
			
		

> Why?   Didn't you want to be thought of as a lady?



I don't know many troops out there who like being called Sir when they're not. 
Or, in my case, (I was only a Pte) being saluted is like being called a ma'am when you're not. 
"Ladies" can be of any rank. I didn't complain though, once they did it the first time and I said Geez what are you doing, and it was explained that it was naval tradition, I asked for them not to salute me when I came aboard because they knew who I was (and rank) but then they explained that it would cost them dearly not to do it. So I kept hushed, let them carry on with their traditions. When in Rome....


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## Gunner (13 Oct 2005)

armyvern, note the winky eye. It was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek!


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## ABFC2 (12 Jan 2006)

Over all, I think FSTO has it best. Salute civvie females and all officers. I never knew a female who did not rate a salute get upset because you saluted her. Most are flattered. Mind you, in my Navy days I don't recall any female Jr. ranks even visiting ships so pretty well any female who crossed the brow did in fact rate a salute. Let's stick to the old traditions. It's what makes the RCN the RCN.


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## Ex-Dragoon (12 Jan 2006)

Well if the RCN was still in existence we probably would have a lot more od the old traditions in effect, while some QMs still salute females, I have yet to see a female QM salute a female other then an officer coming onboard. Some traditions are not practical to keep.


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## ABFC2 (12 Jan 2006)

Anything wrong with still referring to it as the RCN. It's where I did my time.


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## Ex-Dragoon (12 Jan 2006)

Nothing wrong with calling what it used to be known as, just as long as you realize and make sure people don't mistake your post for meaning the RCN is still in existence.


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## muffin (13 Jan 2006)

You just reminded me of when I was 12-13 yrs old and we would go to get my Dad from the ships in Halifax and once in a while we would be allowed on - and they would solute my sister and I as we crossed.... I used to love that. I think it is a nice jesture - though I do agree a tad impratical in todays "PC" world.

Maggie


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## Journeyman (13 Jan 2006)

geo said:
			
		

> Saluting of ladies was/is not restricted to the Navy.



I was going through our Unit Standing Orders (mo-litia infantry) the other day, and the custom of saluting women is still in there - - it's not just a Navy thing, nor has it been stricken from the books.


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## geo (13 Jan 2006)

a question of good manners.

You also salute a hearse when it's part of a funeral cortege.
but you don't salute the marriage cortege.... he's a gonner - just ain't done yet


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## Sepulchrave (22 Jan 2006)

armyvern said:
			
		

> I don't know if the tradition continues...I assume it still would.
> 
> Back in my Halifax days, prior to heading out Pub Crawling etc we would always visit one of the ships first. Even though most of the Ship's Companies were familiar with our friendly faces and knew we were in the Military, if I was in civies, I was always saluted...made me mad as heck but hey, that's their tradition and their turf.



oh come on, I'm sure such considerations wouldn't stop you if it was navy tradition to make obscene gestures at women coming onboard. Admit it! you love being saluted


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## armyvern (22 Jan 2006)

Sepulchrave said:
			
		

> Admit it! you love being saluted



Oh come on...apparently you don't know me very well!! I cringe when polite children call me ma'am for crying out loud.  ;D


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