# "Men's"/whatever "Christmas"/whatever Dinner (merged)



## Michael OLeary (31 Oct 2002)

I‘m looking for early references to Soldiers‘ (Mens‘) Christmas Dinner. The ones I have found follow:

The troops "enjoyed" Christmas Dinner in the open today, a drizzling rain adding to the merriment. The food was good, and much credit is due to Sgt. Val Alcock, the untiring [RCR] sergeant-cook. Each company sent one platoon at a time back to rear BHQ, which is now Command Post, starting at eleven o‘clock this morning. They queued up and received the usual Yuletide  foodstuffs -- canned turkey, plum pudding, etc. If they were lucky they found a box or a heap of rubble to sit on while eating it hulked under their gas capes. -  31 Dec, 1943, S. Galloway, Some Died at Ortona

      Christmas was unlike any I had ever celebrated. Our Battery cooks made use of an outside Italian oven where they performed culinary marvels. We had a makeshift Christmas tree on which the lads put gifts of cigarettes for the adult Italians and candy and gum for the children. The officers served the men what I thought was a very good dinner. The turkeys were perfectly cooked in the outside oven. Altogether I managed to assemble six pints of beer, two bottles of Scotch, and a bottle of Portuguese port. Of this I drank one beer, sharing the rest and my Christmas cake with the Command Post people. The Scotch I gave to the gunners who were visibly appreciative.
      Throughout the day, the guns were silent on both sides. The Forward Observation Officer came in, and, as always, we were relieved to see him and his signaller and to hear how much worse things were with the infantry than with us. The F.O.O.‘s party polished off the port. - Alexander M. Ross, Slow March to a Regiment, 1993

The fifth day of the battle [of Ortona] was December 25, and the fighting went on. Most Canadians got a few hundred yards back from the fighting for an hour or two, long enough for Christmas dinner behind a wall or in a barn or -- in the case of the Seaforth Highlanders -- in the battered Church of Santa Maria di Constantinopoli. This is an extract from a diary kept by the Seaforth padre, Roy Durnford:
         ...C company came first at eleven o‘clock, A company at one, and so on until seven at night. The men looked tired and drawn, as well they might, and most who came directly from the town were dirty and unshaven. "Well," I said, "at last I‘ve got you all in church!" The floor had been cleared and tables set up, and it was heartwarming to see the tablecloths and chinaware some of the boys had scrounged, and the beer, cigarettes, chocolate, nuts, oranges and apples. There was soup, roast pork with applesauce, cauliflower, mashed patatoes, gravy, Christmas pudding and mince pies -- all excellent and a credit to the cooks. Plates were heaped high with as much as any man could eat.
         The tables filled and emptied and filled again, and I saw many a tense face relax in the warmth within the walls of the battlescarred church. What a concert of noise! As relief and relaxation took hold, the talk became louder and greetings and jokes were shouted. The cookers hissed and sizzled behind the altar and the plates clattered as they were cleared from the tables and piled high on the altar itself.  Desecration of the Lord‘s Table? It did not strike me so. Above the din one could sometimes hear machine-gun fire and shells. It was wonderful to hear so much laughter so close to so much death and suffering. - Past Combat Experience, Infantry Journal, Fall 1982


----------



## combat_medic (31 Oct 2002)

I‘m not sure if you knew this, but every year the Seaforth Highlanders recreate that same Ortona Christmas dinner. The parade square gets draped in cam net, and we have the same menu that the men had AT Ortona. It‘s been going on every year since the end of the war, and it‘s coming up again soon. If I get the chance, I‘ll take some pictures of the one this year. Smoky Smith and many other Ortona vets are always there, and it‘s always a good time.


----------



## sten_sterling (31 Oct 2002)

the Ortona Dinner is also frequently attended by LER Veterans who were at the battle. I think the custom of a Men‘s Christmas Dinner is universal within the CF at this point, with subtle variations from unit to unit. 

as far as Ortona goes, I recommend the book "the D-Day Dodgers" (an account of Canadians in Italy 1943-45).

Or, from Martin Tolton‘s website. . . . 

On the 20th, 2nd Brigade under the command of Brig. B.M. Hoffmeister, began it‘s advance on the Town of Ortona.  It didn‘t take long to discover that the Germans were determined to hold Ortona.  The fighting that ensued was some of the most difficult that the Canadian Division had experienced in Italy.  The fight was carried on by the Loyal Edmonton Regiment, and the Seaforths.  

Ortona is a small town.  At the time, only 500 yards wide.  The streets were very narrow and the houses, three to four stories high, were wall to wall, and back to back.  Armour and Artillery support was difficult at such close quarters.  Defended by the 1st Parachute Division, the streets were well covered by fire, and snipers.  Many of the building ad been booby trapped.  

It was during this fighting on Christmas Day, that the Quartermaster; Captain D.B. Cameron, and his staff had arranged a Christmas dinner in the Church of Santa Maria di Constantinopoli.  the four companies were rotated one at a time from the front only a few hundred yards away, to the Church.  For some of the men it was their last Christmas dinner, enjoyed with all the fixings, on white table cloths.

The fighting continued until sometime before first light, December 28, 1943, when under the cover of darkness the 1st Parachute Division withdrew from Ortona.

The Seaforths remained in Italy until 1945.  Fighting through the Liri Valley, and breaking through the Hitler Line on the 23rd of May, 1944.  The Hitler Line, was the costliest battle in the War for the Seaforths.  The Battalion suffered 210 casualties, including 49 men and 3 officers killed.

Or, from the official Battalion website (maintained by our good friend Combat_Medic)

What started as a strike at the "soft underbelly" of the Axis alliance now became a grinding, step-by-step, river-by-river drive up the Italian peninsula against an enemy who proved to be masterful in the defense. The attacking Canadian 1st Division encountered German forces dug in in a gully outside of Ortona--a natural obstacle that the Germans had considerably strengthened with mines and strongpoints. Casualties among the attackers were heavy; rains soon turned the battlefield into a swamp; and, worst of all for the Canadians, British maps of the countryside turned out to be wildly inaccurate. The battle was the Italian campaign in microcosm. It dragged on for 20 days of heavy fighting, as the Germans, reinforced by a paratroop division, fought fiercely for every inch of ground. The Canadians, with heavy armor support, finally pierced the gully. The Germans retreated to Ortona, and dug in there. Another week was required to dig them out of the town. Facing a still unbroken front, and with his assaulting Canadian troops mauled, Montgomery would have to try again in 1944. The German High Command considered a counterattack at this point, but the plan was squashed by Hitler himself, who considered it suicidal in the face of Allied superiority in the airpower. 

The fighting continued until some time before first light Tuesday, 28 December 1943, when, under the cover of darkness, the 1st Parachute Division withdrew from Ortona.


----------



## muskrat89 (1 Nov 2002)

It‘s packed away somewhere, so I can‘t provide a specific reference but I enjoyed the book "Ortona" by Mark Zuehlke. I am reasonably sure it talked about the dinner in there, and I think a photo too.


----------



## combat_medic (1 Nov 2002)

Actually, the photo in question:    
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





is not really of the Ortona Dinner, though it‘s commonly thought to be. There aren‘t any pictures of the dinner itself.


----------



## Michael OLeary (1 Nov 2002)

I‘d like to thank everyonw for the replies thus far. Actually, I‘m wondering if anyone has references to Mens‘/Soldiers‘ Christmas Dinners that are earlier that the Second World War.


----------



## Gordon Angus Mackinlay (4 Nov 2002)

Mr O‘Leary,

the feeding of the troops by those placed over them (in the British Commonwealth context) actually goes back over a thousand years.

It was the norm in pre-Norman Invasion of England (1066) that the chieftan of the tribal group (clan etc) on the great feast day of the year would feed those who served him (pre PC days).  This eventually became Christ‘s Day - from the christian missionaries in the east lands (Germany) who adopted the pagan day of celebrating the winter solistice (the darkest day) as the lords day.

So it was an accepted habit to serve the underlings who had served and protected you, on this Christ‘s day.

As a purely military custom it is first recorded during the English Civil War with the Colonels of Parliment‘s Army‘s regiments feeding the troops, with their subordinate officers assisting.  Well established by the late 17th Century, developing into the form that we know today.

Of interest two armies that owed much to Britain adopted the custom:
The Hanoverian Army, the nation of Hanover belonging to Britain for many years until 1837 - which having been conqured by the French under Napoleon had a free army (the King‘s German Legion) fighting with the British.  The Germanic nations of that time celebrating Christmas far more than the British.  By the time the KGL was fighting in the Peninsular with Wellington, the custom of officers and Senior NCO‘s serving the troops was well adopted.  They taking it back to their homeland after 1815, and it became adopted by the other Germanic states Armies.  Still extant today.

As an aside due to the German influence in the French Foreign Legion, the custom was so adopted back in the late 1800‘s.

The Portuguese Army that was reformed by the British after the French conquest, was mainly officered by Briton‘s.  They introducing the custom, after they left in the 1820‘s the custom remained, only in a different form to what the Commonwealth is familiar with.

It is common to all Commonwealth Armies which have a christian base (such as the Indian and Pakistani ect do not) for which it is appropriate, although many individual regiments do on their main religious feast day have a similar event.

It is quite well recorded in the military literature.

Yours,
Jock in Sydney


----------



## Michael OLeary (4 Nov 2002)

Thanks Jock. I have no doubt that it is well recorded, it just has not been a point of note throughout my own reading and research. I was, therefore, caught off guard recently by a question regarding the provenance of the Christmas Dinner. Your comments as well as the others posted here will provide some excellent background for a response, or a referral to the board.

Thanks again.

Mike


----------



## Spr.Earl (5 Nov 2002)

Thank‘s Jock,
After all these year‘s I finaly know.


----------



## Michael OLeary (29 Feb 2004)

A little out of season, but here‘s an online reference I found on the DHH website:   http://www.dnd.ca/hr/dhh/engraph/faqs_e.asp?category=hertra&FaqID=87#answer .

Question
What are the origins of the Christmas dinner?

Answer
A custom peculiar to the military is the Christmas tradition of role reversal. The youngest member switches places with the commanding officer for the day, the officers serve dinner to the non-commissioned members and they in turn serve dinner to the stewards. All these activities stem from the ancient Roman custom of Saturnalia. 

The festival of Saturnalia honors Saturn and falls at the same time as Christmas, Hanukkah, Solstice and/or Kwanzaa. Christmas decorations such as swathes, garlands, wreaths and tree ornaments began with the merriment of Saturnalia. 

During the time of Saturnalia slaves and children got to be waited on for meals, lead the rituals, and participated in the revelry as if they were their parents/masters. The parents/masters jokingly played the part of children and slaves by waiting on them. The role reversal was symbolic as slaves were not really free to make decisions as free persons nor were children able to enter into contracts or make business deals. Role reversal was only for minor privileges. 

As with the ancient Romans the Canadian Forces today practices role reversal in terms of minor privileges and in the spirit of good cheer. Although, the origins of the custom cannot be traced to any specific event or even time period, it has however become a ‘standard‘ practice from at least the 18th Century. 

Before the introduction of mechanization and sophisticated systems of logistics in the 20th century, enlisted personnel occupied much of their time in tedious routine. In an effort to boost morale, and to show general appreciation for junior ranks, officers took it upon themselves to organize celebrations for the enlisted ranks. One tradition that has been preserved over the ages has been Christmas dinner. Officers and senior non-commissioned officers not only organize the dinner, but they also prepare and serve it to the junior ranks of their unit. When the dinner is over their task is not complete until they clean up the cafeteria. 

On this special occasion, one tradition can be found throughout the Forces during the Christmas season. During these festive times, rules are bent in a playful way. Commanding Officers frequently switch roles and tunics with the youngest member of the unit. This soldier then becomes the honorary commander for the day. The remainder of the officers and the warrant officers and sergeants exchange their jackets and tunics for chef's hats and aprons. The practice of exchanging jackets between the senior private and the RSM is a fairly recent innovation, and is indicative of the RSMs important position as an advisor to the CO and as a conduit between the members of the unit and the senior command structure. 

Specific traditions during the Christmas season can vary amongst environments and units in the Canadian Forces, For example, in the navy, Christmas lights and decorations have been used to decorate trees, streets, buildings and a ship's yardarms. In many cases there is an active competition to see has the best decorations.


----------



## George Wallace (29 Feb 2004)

> On this special occasion, one tradition can be found throughout the Forces during the Christmas season. During these festive times, rules are bent in a playful way. Commanding Officers frequently switch roles and tunics with the youngest member of the unit. This soldier then becomes the honorary commander for the day. The remainder of the officers and the warrant officers and sergeants exchange their jackets and tunics for chef's hats and aprons. The practice of exchanging jackets between the senior private and the RSM is a fairly recent innovation, and is indicative of the RSMs important position as an advisor to the CO and as a conduit between the members of the unit and the senior command structure.


It is the youngest private and CO who ‘exchange‘ tunics and the senior Cpl and RSM who usually ‘exchange‘ tunics.

GW


----------



## Bill Smy (1 Mar 2004)

At Christmas 1915, the 81st Battalion,CEF, dined on a heifer donated by H. F. Kennedy, the Toronto livestock commissioner, for having "the least number of drunks among the Battalions" then stationed in Toronto.

"It was expected that the Battalion [102nd] would be in the trenches on Christmas Day, so the Companies held their Christmas dinner at the Hotel Moderne in Bruay on 14 and 15 December [1917]".


----------



## hoganshero (1 Mar 2004)

not to derail the thread but I‘ve read several books all of which have the photo of "christmas at Ortona" in it all crediting it as... well christmas at Ortona. The question is what is it a picture of in reality? It seems obvious that it was taken of Canadian troops in the 2nd world war. It would have to have been taken in Europe? can anyone discern any details from the pic if a larger version were to be posted. I have a much larger scan but no where to host it if anyone wants to pursue that.


----------



## bossi (1 Mar 2004)

Yup - it was in Europe (Ortona was in Italy, and still is)

I know I‘ve seen a description which says the unit, but I‘ll have to look it up ... (however, I‘m fairly certain they were Highlanders of some sort)

As for the building ... hmmm ... no - I won‘t guess, I‘ll look it up.

(oh, for crying out loud ... I think the information you‘re looking for is already IN this post, if it‘s the photo that Combat Medic posted ... sigh ...)


----------



## hoganshero (1 Mar 2004)

Perhaps I‘m an idiot. i‘ve scoured thsi thread 4 times now All I see is Combat medic stating that the crediting of the picture as the Christmas in Ortona is erroneous but no one addreses what it is a picture of. I‘m more than happy to be corrected if my eyes have missed the answer to my question (my glasses are getting thicker with time)


----------



## Spr.Earl (1 Mar 2004)

It‘s a photo of the men having their Crimbo Dinner that day.

They were given a few hour‘s off the line for their dinner and whent back up on the line so other‘s could have their Dinner and the rotation whent all through the day into the night so every one in the Regiment in Ortona could have Crimbo Dinner.

It‘s a real photo as I have seen it in the Seaforth‘s Armouries and met a few of the Vet.‘s

One inperticuler was of Italian decent and came from N.Van. and was the Uncle of a fellow Sapper and he told us quite a bit of the Italian Campaign with the Froth even Ortona.


----------



## Barrel Nut (4 Dec 2006)

What are your thoughts on the following:

This years Men's Christmas Dinner at our Reserve Unit will include spouses, girl/boyfriends of the soldiers, for a minimal cost, be they the guest of Jr. or Snr NCO or Officer.

Some think its a good idea, allow family and friends to participate, especially during the holiday season,

Some think its breaking with tradition, this was a time for Senior NCO's to serve their troops supper as a way to say thank-you for the hard work.  Now, not only serving the troops they are expected to serve the civilian guests as well.

Your thoughts


----------



## Paul Gagnon (4 Dec 2006)

I attended one with guests, we were all in civilian clothes. It was a hell of a party (the MPs came and shut us down twice  ) but not the same as the traditional Mess Dinner. I think it would be great if a unit could do both but the money probably isn't there. With guests it was probably the most fun but a lot of great memories (and bun fights) are created the traditional way.  I prefered the traditional Men's Christmas Dinner.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (4 Dec 2006)

I always liked our Soldiers (formerly known as Men's) Christmas Dinner the way it was.  Us, the WOs and Officers served the Jnr Ranks...the promotions mostly happened at this function...and our 2 Sqn's would be together that night so the whole Regimental Family was there.

The Guidon was marched on, the receiving line from the CO down to the newest Sgt...

I dunno.  I don't see a 'problem' with it myself, but...given the choice?  I would rather it be members of The Regiment myself.  Have a seperate "open house" function but...I think the Soldiers Dinner should be for just that...the Soldiers.

But...

Interesting point here with the last thing I said is...if it IS the Soldiers Dinner..and the soldiers want their guests there...aren't we denying them what they want at THEIR dinner to make it Regimental Family only?

Now I have myself confused...


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Dec 2006)

We have the traditional dinner. Officers serve the food, WOs & Sgts serve the beer. Guests show up for the dance and party after the dinner is complete.


----------



## Petard (4 Dec 2006)

You've said your unit understands this to be a tradition where your Officers, Warrant Officers and Snr NCO's show their gratitude to their soldiers for their hard work, so how do they rationalize the connection with the guest, who in this case might be a guest that is really only an acquaintance and may or may not know the soldier well, let alone the unit?

Personally I think its bad idea, but recceguy's example is perhaps the best compromise.

Mixed mess functions are intended to show our appreciation to our spouses/significant partner. Non-mixed mess functions are meant to maintain a sense of esprit de corps and liveliness amongst the military members of the unit, and that's where, in a roundabout sense, the men's x-mas dinner lies. It is not purely the soldier's dinner to do as they please, there is a purpose behind it.


----------



## spud (4 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> We have the traditional dinner. Officers serve the food, WOs & Sgts serve the beer. Guests show up for the dance and party after the dinner is complete.



That would be my preference....have some fun, some bonding and recognize tradition before the guests get there.

So many people used to b!tch about going to mess dinners; I never went to one that ended up boring. Started maybe...but not at the end.   


potato


----------



## PoPo (4 Dec 2006)

I'm all for the standard "Soldiers Festive Dinner" (aka Men's Dinner).  I believe in tradition with the Offr serving the food, and us Snr NCM's the Beverages with the remaining Offr's and Snr NCM's blending their vocal talents (or lack of) in Christmas Caroles.

If it was meant to include spouses, gf/bf etc then it wouldn't be a Soldiers Dinner  - it would be a Christmas Party - lets keep the Soldiers Dinner as just that - a Soldiers Dinner where Esprit de core and morale building is increased.

Just my thoughts

On another Note - anyone else have to take the "Smart Serve" course this year to be able to serve the Alcohol at the Festive Dinner??? I am on one tomorrow afternoon to enable me to serve (once again) at our Dinner on Friday.

PoPo


----------



## armyvern (5 Dec 2006)

Let's leave the traditions the way they are. That's why they are called traditions.

My Unit completely fills the kitchen in Gagetown as it is for our Men's Christmas Dinner, there is no possible way spouses/significant others would fit in; nor should they.

I'm there to serve/refill the drinks of my troops/staff. To thank them for their support and their hard work throughout the year; to let them know that I appreciate what they do on a daily basis.

The Coy Christmas party however is open for the spouses & S/O's to attend.

Just my .02 worth.


----------



## PhilB (5 Dec 2006)

We have a Mens Christmas dinner open only to serving soldiers, as per tradition. After the dinner anyone is free to come out for the piss up. The next day we have a family dinner. Open to parents, spouses, kids, significant others. I think this is a good compromise because it shows the regiments appreciation not only to the troops but also the families that support the troops. Keeps with tradition and inclusive.


----------



## c1984ml (5 Dec 2006)

Spouse here - hope that's okay.

While I appreciate the attempts to be a more family friendly entity, I think it is just as important to remember military traditions.  There is a time and a place for family members; I don't think the Christmas Dinner is one of them.


----------



## PPCLI Guy (5 Dec 2006)

Command-Sense-Act 105 said:
			
		

> Barring the name change and some drinking policy changes, the Men's Christmas Dinner (or Soldiers' Holiday Dinner or Soldiers' Appreciation Dinner or Jr Ranks Luncheon or whatever permutation a unit chooses to call it) is one that has remained pretty much the same from its earliest days to the present.



In 1 PPCLI we will have a traditional Men's Xmas Dinner  - I have had it with PC crap.  There will be two free beer, and then a cash bar. No limit.   No tear down will be done, and everyone can stay as long as they like.  The night before, we will have a Battalion Xmas party, with spouses et al.


----------



## Duzty (5 Dec 2006)

Somewhat off the mark, but I'll be having my first Men's Christmas Dinner this year.  Sounds like its gonna be a fun time from what I hear on here and on Parade night.


----------



## George Wallace (5 Dec 2006)

I agree with all of the above, but have a feeling that the Topic originated here by Barrel Nut, is about a small unit of less than fifty, and no facilities to do any Messing.  Large Cbt Arms units have a very fine tradition and facilities to carry out those traditions, but some of the smaller Units, don't have Drill Halls, nor Messes available.  They congregate in a Restauraunt/Bar for their "Does", each paying their own way, with a token amount from a Unit Fund.  This is where Tradition in this sense is not 'readily available'.  

One more point on Guests.  In the RCD, it was customary to invite some of the 'Old Guard' to the Dinner and sit them at the Head Table, or amongst the Troops, to maintain the 'Family' traditions of the Regiment.  A chance for the Young and to Old to exchange thoughts of how things have changed and how things have remained the same.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (5 Dec 2006)

Just to throw my 2 cents in...

I don't think calling it a Soldier's Xmas Dinner is PC.  I think its accurate, in this day and age.

IMHO.


----------



## niner domestic (5 Dec 2006)

I'm female, I'm not insulted by the term Men's Dinner as I have come to understand it has a referral to *the men* under the command of said Os, SNCOs and NCOs in this or that unit/regt as opposed to *the guys* having a a few beer and munchies to the exclusion of *the gals*.   Nor do I feel that the term Men's Dinner excludes those who are female members of the unit/regt.  

I'm also a spouse and absolutely don't feel the need to be included in an event that is for serving members.  I have enough dinners, cocktail parties, luncheons, soirees, entertaining visiting dignitaries and parades to attend with the hubby without trying to add one more into the mix.  Especially the one where he gets to say a hearty thank you to *his men*. 

Having cut my teeth in a military that is steeped in traditions, the RN, and then coming back to Canada and joining the CF and seeing the minimal traditions carried on at the time was perplexing to me (just at the time of the end of unification).  So much tradition, was lost during the unification and over the years I was particularly happy to see a lot of traditions make their way back into the daily life of the CF. 
I often argued that the move to alter phrases and titles to reflect the female gender was actually making it harder for me to be integrated than if it was just left alone.  I mourned the loss of the traditional Navy toasts to be replaced with not a tradition, but a knee jerk response to PC.  PC does not a tradition make.   The term *gentlemen* never meant to me to be those of testosterone producing only, it always meant a state of behaviour and day-to-day decorum that being a gentleman possesses.   I smiled ear to ear the day I was referred to a gentleman as I knew I had achieved a level of natural behaviour that would stand me in my stead for the rest of me life.  

Leave the term Men's Dinner.


----------



## sigtech (5 Dec 2006)

Leave the "Men's Xmas Dinner" for the Soldier's. Sorry Mud Recce as you know I have never been one to be PC.   ;D

Have a Xmas party to bring your spouse to.

In these days where moral in allot of units is at a all time low. Let's keep a night that I know always put a smile on my face and made me feel like everything I have done over the past year was worth it and appeared in the eyes of officers and Sr NCO's and what better way of doing that then a cheep meal and lots of beer.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (5 Dec 2006)

I am not that PC either I don't think...I just know there are not just "Men" in the ranks anymore...


----------



## armyvern (5 Dec 2006)

I have no problem with it being called the Men's Christmas Dinner, as I understand it's tradition and it's place in today's CF. Most serving women I know, feel the same way I do.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (5 Dec 2006)

I know my unit is planning to do a mixed dinning in for the Mens Soldiers Christmas Dinner as a way of saying thanks to the spouses/parents/significant others of thoses from the unit that are departing on TF1-07 at no cost, the rest of us must pay a minimual cost if we want to bring spouses/significant others.

For this event I don't see any problems (yay yay I know tradition) with this as this will be our "official send off" for our troops.

My 2 cents, please take it for what its worth.


----------



## navymich (5 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> I have no problem with it being called the Men's Christmas Dinner, as I understand it's tradition and it's place in today's CF. Most serving women I know, feel the same way I do.



I concur.


----------



## sigtech (5 Dec 2006)

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> I know my unit is planning to do a mixed dinning in for the Mens Soldiers Christmas Dinner as a way of saying thanks to the spouses/parents/significant others of thoses from the unit that are departing on TF1-07 at no cost, the rest of us must pay a minimual cost if we want to bring spouses/significant others.
> 
> For this event I don't see any problems (yay yay I know tradition) with this as this will be our "official send off" for our troops.
> 
> My 2 cents, please take it for what its worth.



yay yay I know tradition ? There in lies the problem. Tradition!!! There should be tradition in the Army it builds moral and makes you feel like you are a part of something. I joined in 92' and in my time in the forces I have seen these Tradition's slowly die some are better dead but some like the Xmas dinner shouldn't.

Like I said have the Men's Xmas dinner and then a party for anything like a offical send off,  The xmas dinner has meaning and tradition and by the Lord we need to keep a few traditions going.

I wonder if I said tradition to many times 

just my 2 cents


----------



## Padraig OCinnead (5 Dec 2006)

My unit started another tradition on what used to be the Men's Christmas dinner. That morning we have a full medals parade, with inspections, visiting dignitairies and the whole shebang. Then there are other parades such as change of OC or whatnot. There was a PDev thrown in in the theatre and may be repeated this year. I sort of miss the days where we would meet up at the shacks for many many drinks prior to being formed up by the senior MCpl and marched off to the drill hall. The dinners were good, the music (provided by unit bands) and good times were all fun. I don't know what we could call this event anymore but it certainly isn't the men's/soldier's Christmas dinner. Still I am looking forward to it this year, once the shenanigans are over with.


----------



## armyvern (5 Dec 2006)

NFld Sapper,

There are many "Dinner" functions in the CF; Mess Dinners, Mixed Dining In, Candlelight Dinners, Mens Christmas Dinners, amongst others.

What you have described below certainly seems like a Mixed Dining In to me, but it does not resemble a Men's Christmas Dinner.

My .02 worth. Let the Units do what they wish, but call your function by it's proper name/title. And for those who choose to have a mixed dining in, or a candlelight, please do not use this other function as a means to skip the Men's Christmas Dinner that your troops deserve.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Dec 2006)

So while everyone is at the 'Soldier's Holiday Repast' having a good old fashioned PC 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 , I'll be at the Men's Christmas Dinner eating turkey and  :cheers:


----------



## armyvern (5 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> So while everyone is at the 'Soldier's Holiday Repast' having a good old fashioned PC
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll see if I can manage to slide you a few 'extras.' ;D


----------



## George Wallace (5 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> I'll see if I can manage to slide you a few 'extras.' ;D



Would that be "extras", food and drink or "Extras", Duties?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Dec 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Would that be "extras", food and drink or "Extras", Duties?



I normally manage all three at the dinner anyway  ;D


----------



## armyvern (5 Dec 2006)

I always do beverage duty lads and lasses. Extra beverages dammit.

:cheers:

Cripes, even I'm not _that_ mean (insert evil laugh here)  >.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (6 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> NFld Sapper,
> 
> There are many "Dinner" functions in the CF; Mess Dinners, Mixed Dining In, Candlelight Dinners, Mens Christmas Dinners, amongst others.
> 
> ...



True Librarian but the SNCO's and Officers are still treating it like a Mens Christmas Dinner in that they will be serving us _et al_.


----------



## daftandbarmy (6 Dec 2006)

A good example of why Men's Christmas Dinners have evolved in a particular way over time. The below account is of the famous Seaforth Highlanders of Canada Christmas dinner at Ortona in 1943. Many other regiments have held similar events down through the ages. Bottom line in the case of this particular military tradition ... miltary only.

The setting for the dinner was complete, long rows of tables with white tablecloths, and a bottle of beer per man, candies, cigarettes, nuts, oranges and apples and chocolate bars providing the extras. The C.O., Lt.-Col. S. W. Thomson, laid on that the Companies would eat in relays... as each company finished their dinner, they would go forward and relieve the next company... The menu... soup, pork with apple sauce, cauliflower, mixed vegetables, mashed potatoes, gravy, Christmas pudding and mince pie... From 1100 hours to 1900 hours, when the last man of the battalion reluctantly left the table to return to the grim realities of the day, there was an atmosphere of cheer and good fellowship in the church. A true Christmas spirit. The impossible had happened. No one had looked for a celebration this day. December 25th was to be another day of hardship, discomfort, fear and danger, another day of war. The expression on the faces of the dirty bearded men as they entered the building was a reward that those responsible are never likely to forget… During the dinner the Signal Officer... played the church organ and with the aid of the improvised choir, organized by the padre, carols rang out throughout the church."
- Seaforth Highlanders Regiment, War Diary, December 25th, 1943 
http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-rod-ita-ort-e.htm


----------



## honestyrules (6 Dec 2006)

My unit calls it "Men's appreciation dinner" nowadays, just for PC's sake. They could go a little further and change it to Soldiers appreciation dinner... why not. Free tickets to win a few turkeys and hams, a few plaques (Soldier of the year, athlete, MCpl) and a few wobblies. Always a good time.


----------



## Sig_Des (6 Dec 2006)

delavan said:
			
		

> My unit calls it "Men's appreciation dinner" nowadays



I'm laughing out loud, and my sides hurt, but deep down inside, the un-PC part of me (ok, so it's not so deep) wants to cry...wait, no...throat-punch


----------



## mudeater (6 Dec 2006)

The CF has rich traditions and it is these traditions that separate us from other Allied armies. I say leave the Men's Dinner (not the Soldiers' Dinner) alone. There is a place for spouses and this isn't it. Do you want your wife/girlfriend to see you throwing buns at Pte Bloggins. If you bring your spouse she'll keep nagging about how there's no salad fork while she tells you not to make an arse of yourself. Where's the fun in that?  ???


----------



## recoverygod (6 Dec 2006)

As a Jewish soldier i never did mind it being called the men's xmass dinner.  Because of the traditions, and the history behind it.  At times i was the one who decorated the christmass tree.  However it is a new age, and PC is the norm.  And in my view why to strict at times.  Let it stay as the Men's Christmass dinner.


----------



## vonGarvin (6 Dec 2006)

recoverygod said:
			
		

> As a Jewish soldier i never did mind it being called the men's xmass dinner.  Because of the traditions, and the history behind it.  At times i was the one who decorated the christmass tree.  However it is a new age, and PC is the norm.  And in my view why to strict at times.  Let it stay as the Men's Christmass dinner.


Mazeltov!


----------



## a78jumper (8 Dec 2006)

Keep it the traditional way....my last year in the Reg Force at Gagetown, someone made the decision to turn the dinner into a cold self serve buffet. What a disappointment! I always enjoyed serving the troops, and then sitting down for a couple of cold ones afterwards. 

Another "memorable" one involved having to clear the dining facility by 1400 hrs so everyone could go back to work!!!!! I still remember being told the RSM was ticked because we were wasting time by sitting down with our soldiers. What a unit that was!!!

Let me say the best ones were with the infantry units I served with over the years, the ones with the Airborne being the most fun, especially the hired Xmas elves from the Northwood/Executive Inn. No way today in PC times!

We did not have a Men's Dinner at CABC for the simple reason we had only a handful of JRs, mostly clerks, sup techs/riggers and one MSE Op. But we did have a really classy mixed dinner that put all that NFP money earned from the Airborne Kit shop to good use! On a company level though (most worked for us) we did find other ways of expressing our appreciation, including a Xmas beer call, though again that would not likely go over in today's PC environment.


----------



## reccecrewman (9 Dec 2006)

It should be left as it always has been. A tradition in which the Officer's and Sr. NCO's show their gratitude to the junior ranks.  It's a tradition best left exactly the way it is.  I could see the possibilities for disaster with having wives/girlfriends present.  The guest gets smoked in the back of the head with some sort of food and gets all irate............... Depending on the personality, she either stands up and makes a huge scene, then gets a barrage from every direction, or she starts sobbing hysterically in the middle of the room about the stain on her dress or icing in her hair........... It's best left to tradition.  My Regiment normally has Squadron level Christmas parties in which there's food & beverage available and wives/girlfriends are welcome/encouraged to come out.  These functions are always a good chance for wives/girlfriends to come to a Unit function and meet their husbands co-workers, friends and their wives, and they are usually much tamer than the Mens Christmas Dinner.

My .02

Regards


----------



## GO!!! (10 Dec 2006)

The Men's Christmas Dinner should retain both it's name and character.

I feel it is essential that a Bn retain an event in which the head table has the opportunity to be the tgt of a "fire mission, yule log" and the ensuing food fight, much to the amusement of the attending vets and guests of honor!

I think that is the reason that my unit had to have our Dinners in the unit lines as opposed to the mess!


----------



## mysteriousmind (10 Dec 2006)

Having been lucky enough to live the type its only the members and the type were spouses, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend are invited, I personally prefer the unaccompanied type.

Why you may ask? quite simple...a mess diner has a lot of tradition, corrum (not sure if the term is correct in English), and they even tough they have a crash course....do not have a sense to respect it. As for us...(Only me perhaps) feel honored to be living such moment...and playing the game. Having one of my superior serving me is quite special..knowing that a superior will do it to thank us for the job we do. 

The one with guest....well it should be less formal.  It is a okay type do not get me wrong. But I prefer tradition.


----------



## Barrel Nut (10 Dec 2006)

Well, I started this subj and I guess I should leave you with the results of the actual Dinner as it did turn out.

Firstly - It had a larger turn out than expected, everyone minded their manners and all had an outstanding time and meal.

But hind sight being 20/20, you can understand that some Snr NCO's and Officers who did bring guests were naturally more drawn to entertain their guests as opposed to help out in the kitchen, thus putting a little more work on the rest of us.  Everyone did pitch in to help in some fashion, just some were trying not to be rude and abandon their guests, and during the clean up phase some did find it necessary to stop and talk with soldiers and their family members prior to their departure.  Of course those who worked didn't complain, just got the job done.

Overall, my opinion is this, The X-Mas dinner is for the soldiers and selected guest speakers, the Officers and Senior NCOs arrange, set up, serve and clean up after it.  Merry Christmas to the Jr. Ranks for you do deserve our undivided attention.


----------



## artfuldodga (11 Dec 2006)

My Units 'Mens Christmas Dinner' was fun again this year, besides having to wake up at 0700 the next day to work (we were able to sleep in, woo)
Dinner of course served by Senior NCO's & Officers which has always been the case since i've been in.

We were kind of joking around that one day Mens Christmas Dinner would be called something different, sad to hear that other 
Units have already adopted more of a PC title, but I guess some people actually do take offence to it... somehow.

Anyhow, I hope  you all had a great time getting hammered  & have a safe Christmas / Happy New Year.

Oh, odd thing about this dinner was that no one wore DEU's, mostly due to the fact that we had new recruits at the dinner, none of which 
had their dress uniform yet, & we wanted them to feel a part of the Regiment, we didnt allow thoughs which weren't of age to drink, but they were allowed
to talk to us


----------



## vonGarvin (11 Dec 2006)

The thing about the Sr. NCO's, WOs and Officers serving the men has more to do with Boxing Day traditions than Christmas traditions, no?  You know, servants and masters changing roles, for a day?


----------



## scoutfinch (11 Dec 2006)

mudeater said:
			
		

> The CF has rich traditions and it is these traditions that separate us from other Allied armies. I say leave the Men's Dinner (not the Soldiers' Dinner) alone. There is a place for spouses and this isn't it. Do you want your wife/girlfriend to see you throwing buns at Pte Bloggins. If you bring your spouse she'll keep nagging about how there's no salad fork while she tells you not to make an arse of yourself. Where's the fun in that?  ???



I see your point and agree that it should be a members only event.  After all, what would my husband do... probably nag and tell me to stop making an arse of myself!  

I believe in the tradition.  There are times and places for events with spouses and those without.  

However, I see no reason for not applying a more accurate name.  Whether you like it or not, the use of the title 'men's' is dated and less than accurate.  I find nothing wrong that with the use of the word 'soldier's'.


----------



## mysteriousmind (11 Dec 2006)

In french...it is call the "souper de la troupe"  literaly : "supper of the troups or troup's diner"   

wheter it is call the Troup's diner or the men's diner....It comes back to a tradition. I dont recall my dad talking about his "men's diner" that my mom was invited, and franckly I dont think they made such a case back then.

Ok I unbderstand we are in 2006 (That what I keep telling my client), but tradition is tradition...and that whats make it special.


----------



## artfuldodga (11 Dec 2006)

actually, when i got in.. i believe it was a Troop Christmas Dinner  or something along thos lines. we had no Guests for our dinners, we usually allow guests afterwards though.


----------



## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

recoverygod said:
			
		

> As a Jewish soldier i never did mind it being called the men's xmass dinner.  Because of the traditions, and the history behind it.  At times i was the one who decorated the christmass tree.  However it is a new age, and PC is the norm.  And in my view why to strict at times.  Let it stay as the Men's Christmass dinner.


Tov hanaka. Shalom.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (11 Dec 2006)

Personally, I've had enough of the PC bullshit. Some things should just be left alone to tradition. Some people will never be happy until they've change the world into their genderless, homogenized, white bread utopia. Some things just aren't meant to be changed.

The format was never a problem when it was the "Men's Christmas Dinner". As soon as people started fucking with the name, they started playing with the format, which until about five years ago has not changed since the dinner started eons ago. Leave it alone, before the whole meaning of this institution is gone the way of the PC dodo also.


----------



## gaspasser (11 Dec 2006)

Agreed!  What's next? The Navy has all but lost "Crossing the Line".  Don't really know any good old Air Force traditions. I for one certainly miss parading for the Men's Christmas Dinner, I haven't been to one in...um...10 years??  Welcome to the Air Force where they ask for volunteers.
Merry Christmas to All.


----------



## armyvern (12 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> As soon as people started ******* with the name, they started playing with the format,



This is what gets me the most. I have yet to meet a single "serving" female who beoched about this. 

Not a one. That irritates me, people assuming that "we'd" be offended by the name.

Just like the UAVs and their re-designation...it's got to stop already!!


----------



## GO!!! (12 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> This is what gets me the most. I have yet to meet a single "serving" female who beoched about this. Not a one. That irritates me.



Not nearly as much as it irritates me to be referred to as an "infantryperson"


----------



## Sig_Des (12 Dec 2006)

GO!!! said:
			
		

> Not nearly as much as it irritates me to be referred to as an "infantryperson"



I know...why would anyone refer to you as anything with "person" in it?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Dec 2006)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> This is what gets me the most. I have yet to meet a single "serving" female who beoched about this.
> 
> Not a one. That irritates me, people assuming that "we'd" be offended by the name.
> 
> Just like the UAVs and their re-designation...it's got to stop already!!



No? What about this one then?

Quote from SamIAm


> I see your point and agree that it should be a members only event.  After all, what would my husband do... probably nag and tell me to stop making an arse of myself!
> 
> I believe in the tradition.  There are times and places for events with spouses and those without.
> 
> *However, I see no reason for not applying a more accurate name.  Whether you like it or not, the use of the title 'men's' is dated and less than accurate.  I find nothing wrong that with the use of the word 'soldier's'*.


----------



## armyvern (12 Dec 2006)

I missed that post....and "I strenuously object!!"

Traditions are just that. I have no problem with the name "Men's Christmas Dinner." Think Ortona. That's what it's all about. It's about my troops, not about their sex.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (12 Dec 2006)

For the sake of arguement (and the soon to follow comments to my post  ;D) is it REALLY that big of a deal if some units opt for Soldiers vice Men's in the title?

I agree with keeping the dinner "for the troops" and the follow-on party or a seperate bash that involves family members and S/O's...but...

Meh.  I had guy's and gal's in my last troop...all were good troops for the most part...but not all were men...and..believe me...I hate the PC stuff too...I am just not convinced that "Soldier's" is that PC I guess.  I wasn't upset with it...I guess the best part is we are all there to do what we should be doing there (serving or enjoying and causing a commotion  ;D).

As long as the tradition of the "why" is alive...does the name really matter?

_~pops smoke, withdraws thru the low ground~_


----------



## armyvern (12 Dec 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> As long as the tradition of the "why" is alive...does the name really matter?


Well yes I think it does. If you take out the "Men's" then you really should remove the "Christmas." 

So if the name doesn't really matter as you've implied above, then why mess with it? Let the tradition stand.

Just mess with the Yule Logs instead!!


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Dec 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> For the sake of arguement (and the soon to follow comments to my post  ;D) is it REALLY that big of a deal if some units opt for Soldiers vice Men's in the title?
> 
> I agree with keeping the dinner "for the troops" and the follow-on party or a seperate bash that involves family members and S/O's...but...
> 
> ...




OK. Go back and read my post again, slower. The part where once you change the name, the format starts to change, and it has. It has been all to prevalent in this thread to see the slope it's sliding down. I've also seen it at various units. There is absolutely no need to change it.



			
				The Librarian said:
			
		

> Well yes I think it does. If you take out the "Men's" then you really should remove the "Christmas."
> 
> So if the name doesn't really matter as you've implied above, then why mess with it? Let the tradition stand.
> 
> Just mess with the Yule Logs instead!!



Exactly. Take away "Men's Christmas", you have dinner. Sorry, but just having "Dinner" doesn't excite me, and is not enough for even my young guys to appear. I can, and have, bought them beer to say thanks. We don't need to go to "dinner". Anything else, except The Men's Christmas Dinner, just doesn't cut it.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (12 Dec 2006)

K.

I am not saying the name _doesn't_ matter...so I guess I should have worded it "more better".

Some units are happy with "Men's"...some units are happy with "Soldiers".

I dunno.  Same as my "old style" Principles of Leadership" card in my wallet.  If it said "Know your _soldiers_ and promote their welfare...."

I guess...I am sayin' IMHO if changin' the name from Men's to Soldier's is the _ONLY_ change...mmm'kay thats fine?

Leave the rest as it is.  That's all.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (12 Dec 2006)

Yeah, OK. Good luck with that. Let us know where you are in five years with it.


----------



## 17thRecceSgt (12 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> OK. Go back and read my post again, slower. The part where once you change the name, the format starts to change, and it has. It has been all to prevalent in this thread to see the slope it's sliding down. I've also seen it at various units. There is absolutely no need to change it.



Done.

I hear you RecceGuy...give an inch, take a mile?  Oui?  I am saying I can live with the Soldier's vice Men's...not the change of anything else.  I can't comment on the "ya and THEN we could change THIS and THAT" types at the units that would/have go beyond that.  Myabe I am dreamin' but...I would like to believe that the RSM would scowl and swear and they would drop it and move on.   ;D

So.  In summary.

Mens/Soldiers Dinner?  I am ok with that.

Any change of WHO should attend, and modifications beyond that?  Thumbs down.  Its for the troops.  Always was.  Always should be.  

I have no idea how to stop the units from going beyond the change of Men's to Soldiers but as I sit here...public canings and things like that are effective deterents.   ;D

I did like the fact that IIRC GO!!! said the dinner has to held in his unit lines vice the Mess Hall.  Must be a gooder!  Keep em that way.


----------



## armyvern (12 Dec 2006)

Well,

As a female supervisor who quite frequently serves the troops at the "Men's Christmas Dinner," my troops, who being the trade that I am, are usually overwhelmingly female, I say let it stand as it is. They don't have a problem with the name, and neither do I.

There's also some serving personnel of other religions who've already stated in this thread that they don't have a problem with the term "Christmas" being used either.


----------



## Bill Smy (26 Dec 2008)

What is the origin of the tradition of Officers serving Other Ranks Christmas dinner?


----------



## Edward Campbell (26 Dec 2008)

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> What is the origin of the tradition of Officers serving Other Ranks Christmas dinner?



Try this link


----------



## Future Pensioner (24 Nov 2009)

Heard from a reliable source today that the Comd LFCA has directed/will direct the cancellation of the Men's Christmas Dinner for Reserve units this year as a cost cutting measure.

Can anyone shed some light on this???


----------



## Michael OLeary (24 Nov 2009)

Haven't heard that one .... yet.


----------



## navymich (24 Nov 2009)

I hope that isn't true.  It's a great tradition that should be kept alive.

When I was a reservist, it was always scheduled on a training Saturday.  Therefore, the Full Day pay was already in the budget.  If that is the case with other units, all they would have to work out was the cost of the meal and beverages which, with the work of a good senior cook, could be worked around what is already allocated for a typical lunch on a training day.


----------



## Rifleman62 (25 Nov 2009)

You mean the Soldier's Christmas Dinner, vice the Men's Christmas Dinner.

Generation Y understanding of tradition: done twice. 
Generation Y understanding of a great tradition: haven't we done this before?


----------



## dangerboy (25 Nov 2009)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> You mean the Soldier's Christmas Dinner, vice the Men's Christmas Dinner.


I don't want to insult any female soldiers but I have never heard it called "The Soldier's Christmas Dinner" always heard it called the Men's.  If you were to call it the Soldier's it might be thought that you were excluding the Navy and Air Force.


----------



## Occam (25 Nov 2009)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> I don't want to insult any female soldiers but I have never heard it called "The Soldier's Christmas Dinner" always heard it called the Men's.  If you were to call it the Soldier's it might be thought that you were excluding the Navy and Air Force.



Which is why I've seen it referred to as the "Junior Ranks Christmas Dinner" in operations orders for as long as I remember.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (25 Nov 2009)

We have this same discussion, about the name, every year around this time.


----------



## Rifleman62 (25 Nov 2009)

Since the orginal post was refering to the Army ..............

I have seen it referred to the Junior Ranks Christmas Dinner on Air Force bases. No idea what the Navy call it, "Sailor's"???

My point is that it should not be called "Men's" in Army units. If we have this diiscussion every year, why?


----------



## ajp (25 Nov 2009)

CTC HQ refers to it as "Soldier Appreciation Dinner".  I am sure there are untits that call it a Mens Dinner and I doubt many would complain at the title of a meal held as a long standing Tradition.  I hope people here can drop the semantics of what the dinner is called, the topic was that the dinner was cancelled and that would be a shame.


----------



## Teflon (25 Nov 2009)

Personally I take offence to the word dinner!  :


----------



## RCR Grunt (25 Nov 2009)

Come now fellas, everyone knows it's the "Soldier's Festive Meal."  Where are your PC manner's?


----------



## Teflon (25 Nov 2009)

Anyone's Grunt said:
			
		

> Come now fellas, everyone knows it's the "Soldier's Festive Meal."  Where are your PC manner's?



Well that's a little better but I would still prefer the "Soldier's Festive Sit Down For Some Food and Some Free Beers" although there could be some that prefer to stand and move around as they eat I guess.


----------



## dregeneau (25 Nov 2009)

I would think that if push comes to shove, and LFCA needs to cut money somewhere, it is possible this dinner could be canceled. 

However, I would also suggest that regiments might tend to cut class A days somewhere else in lieu of an event such as this. Seeing the importance evenings such as these are in maintaining moral.


----------



## Larkvall (25 Nov 2009)

As of last Friday 32 CER had their Christmas dinner scheduled for Dec.18th. Of course that may have since changed.


----------



## toughenough (25 Nov 2009)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> My point is that it should not be called "Men's" in Army units.



Good point, Rifleperson62.


----------



## Remius (25 Nov 2009)

Is the x-mas dinner cancelled?  Will the CF be cutting 45% of all class Bs?  Will we be in afghanistan after 2011?

Most of this is rumour until confirmed.  The LFCA commander had  a town hall recently and frankly it wasn't very inspiring.  Lots of cuts, 200-300 class B positions being cut, class A days being cut, training being cut, no recruiting growth, oh and somehow LFCA has to cough up 600 reservists for OP cadence.  Reg force is apparently going to be facing some dilemas but he couldn't comment on those until they became public.   But he's still happy with how great things are  :

Nothing was mentioned about the men's/soldiers/jrs x-mas dinners...but I'm sure there will be announcements in the next couple of weeks.

the fact is that we are in a period of fiscal restraint and anything is possible.


----------



## CountDC (25 Nov 2009)

Does anyone else feel like they are on a merry-go-round??


----------



## Occam (25 Nov 2009)

CountDC said:
			
		

> Does anyone else feel like they are on a merry-go-round??



Note to all members - Beatings will continue until morale improves.


----------



## Rifleman62 (25 Nov 2009)

Well put toughenough!

Regards,

Rifleman62


----------



## armyvern (26 Nov 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> We have this same discussion, about the name, every year around this time.



Yep, and every year all us women who "they don't want to offend" chime in with a "WTF did they have to switch the name of this tradition?"

Nothing that I love better than the thought that some man decided that *I* would be offended to attend a Men's Christmas Dinner.   :


----------



## Kat Stevens (26 Nov 2009)

That's why I stopped being a male chauvinist pig. I heard you chicks hate that stuff.


----------



## armyvern (26 Nov 2009)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> That's why I stopped being a male chauvinist pig. I heard you chicks hate that stuff.



Especially we red-headed babes.


----------



## a_majoor (26 Nov 2009)

I thought I'd go to the women's Christmas dinner instead...


----------



## vonGarvin (26 Nov 2009)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> I thought I'd go to the women's Christmas dinner instead...


*TECHNOVIKING*  is _very_ pleased with your suggestion, Thucydides!


:nod:


----------



## FormerHorseGuard (27 Nov 2009)

I think the army  in general refers to all enlisted persons as MEN because of the Geneva Conventiions does not list rights for women, everything is listed as Men. That  was explained to me by  a Jag  Officer back in the 90s at LFCA HQ when i worked there. has it changed offically?


----------



## Neill McKay (27 Nov 2009)

I think it probably pre-dates the Geneva Conventions.  Before there were women in the Forces the military population consisted of "officers and men", and you'll still hear that term in some historical contexts.  I would suggest that the "men's Christmas dinner" comes from that era.


----------



## medicineman (28 Nov 2009)

I recall in the not so distant past when, in the name of keeping CFB Kingston alive, the Base Commander for 2 years running cancelled the Non-Commissioned Members Winter Festive Food Fight, oops, Dinner.  I also recall the Officers' Mess there had a huge at home and Christmas party not long after.  What he put on instead was a little tea and sandwich get together that few attended.  When he left, we got an RCR Col in as B Comd and he immediately reinstated the Chrsitmas Dinner - though as a cost cutting measure, he made it for living in pers only, but at least he brought back a modicum of tradition that was really important for morale.  Especially when there wasn't alot to go around at that time.

MM


----------



## Gunner98 (28 Nov 2009)

Pardon my ignorance, so you are saying that Reservists are paid to come to the unit for the Christmas Dinner and some would vote to sacrifice training days to continue this tradition.  Why not suggest that soldiers with good morale might come to the unit for dinner and few free beers without being paid to do so.  Do officers get paid to attend Mess Dinners?  Do entire Reserve units get paid for Remembrance Day, when/wherever they might parade or attend a ceremony?


----------



## dapaterson (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Pardon my ignorance, so you are saying that Reservists are paid to come to the unit for the Christmas Dinner and some would vote to sacrifice training days to continue this tradition.  Why not suggest that soldiers with good morale might come to the unit for dinner and few free beers without being paid to do so.  Do officers get paid to attend Mess Dinners?  Do entire Reserve units get paid for Remembrance Day, when/wherever they might parade or attend a ceremony?



Why pay the Reg Force for the same things?  Why not cut off Reg F pay for the weekends when they aren't on duty - significant savings there?

Or, perhaps, if we are asking people to serve, to give their time and efforts, we should compensate them for it?


----------



## George Wallace (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Pardon my ignorance, so you are saying that Reservists are paid to come to the unit for the Christmas Dinner and some would vote to sacrifice training days to continue this tradition.  Why not suggest that soldiers with good morale might come to the unit for dinner and few free beers without being paid to do so.  Do officers get paid to attend Mess Dinners?  Do entire Reserve units get paid for Remembrance Day, when/wherever they might parade or attend a ceremony?



Just like in the Reg Force, these events are "Parades".  Why wouldn't they be paid?   And just like the Reg Force, they often have to dig into their pockets to pay for these Dinners.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Nov 2009)

Back when I was alittle younger, my old Reserve unit, The PEI Regiment used to always have the Mens Dinner as the last "parade night" of the year and always on a Friday.  It was the big event for The Regiment each year usually.  I was part of B Sqn in Summerside PEI, with CFB Summerside still being open (to some extent) at the time.  The dinner itself was at the Queen Charlotte Armouries in Charlottetown, about a 60 minute bus drive in the early winter.  We'd (B Sqn) show up at The Mess in Summerside for a few starters, and alot of us had a pint of *something* to continue the festivities on the drive to the QCA.  The receiving line would set up shortly after we arrived in Charlottetown and had time to go to our respective messes to meet up with those A Sqn fags from the city  , at which time the party just got bigger.  The dinner's were always the best;  lots of laughs, stories of things that had happened over the past year, all that stuff.  And of course, the always anticapted promotions within the Regiment, usually exluding those of Officers, which seemed to be done more at the Officers Mess dinners.  After a great meal and usually LOTS of free brews downrange (the extras lined up under your chair, of course), the CO would give his speech to The Regiment...the dinner would be dismissed.  The Guidon would be marched off, the Jnr Ranks would head to the Mess to get it started up, Snr NCOs and above would clean up and then it was "open Mess's" for the remainder of the night, although that usually meant the WOs and Sgt's and younger Officers would end up in the Jnr Ranks mess where the party was.  After the Mess's closed down, us B Sqn troops would get back on the bus (loaded up with beers from all the promotions, etc), drive back to Summerside and open up the mess there to finish the night.  They were the best military parties I have every gone to, and I looked forward to them yearly after attending my first one.  I distinctly remember the moment I was on the first floor of the armouories and hearing a roar and commotion, saw several of the *usual characters* lofting the christmas tree from the Jr Ranks mess over the railing on the second floor to the parade floor below.  Always a sign of good times and a good party with the 17th!

Comparitively, the dinners I have gone to in the Reg Force are pure boring to date.  Usually at noon at Stadacona, lively as a bridge party at an old folks home.  I have no interest in them, but then again I am alittle older now too but...if I had the chance to go back to the one at The Regiment, I am sure it would be just as good time all over again...just alot of the faces from back in the day wouldn't be there anymore.

Being that some of my fondest memories of those Reserve days are things like the Men's Christmas Dinner of yester-year, I think they should cancel some of the PC demanded non-army trg first like all that SHARP and HARASSMENT shit you get a gazillion time over your career and keep the Men's Dinner.


----------



## Gunner98 (28 Nov 2009)

I am not sure these arguments are strengthening the case.  If the Reg Force unit CO had full budget control and could manipulate his salary expenditures I could see your first point; however, this is not the case.  As for your second point, servers could be compensated but that would be relevant to the number of attendees.  My point was if we are riding on a declining budget trend, you have a decision to make between time/money to get boots dirty and napkins dirty, I think it should be an easy decision.  If it takes an Area Comd to make this decision for unit COs then that makes a statement. 

Do parades raise morale more than getting boots dirty in the field?  If the Men's Christmas Dinner is a parade like every other parade night in a Reserve Unit - what is attendance like?  

The entire argument about what to call the dinner shows the diminishing sense of tradition, if it has become a victim of political correctness then how is it a tradition.  It is in the same manner as when I hear senior officers stumble to stress "soldiers, sailors, Air Force men and women".  Why is it important to stress that only the Air Force has not found an acceptable gender neutral name to give their "soldiers"; why don't they just cut to the chase and say, "all members of the CF".  Or do some folks in uniform take offense to being called a "member".


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Nov 2009)

Servers?  The "servers" at the Men's Christmas Dinners should be the Officer, WOs and Sgt's of the unit(s).  Again, that is part of the tradition...where did this servers shit come from?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> My point was if we are riding on a declining budget trend, you have a decision to make between time/money to get boots dirty and napkins dirty, I think it should be an easy decision.  If it takes an Area Comd to make this decision for unit COs then that makes a statement.



I can tell you, in my old unit, cancelling the Men's Dinner would have had a BAD effect on Morale.  From the top down, maybe they think these dinners weren't big deals but...when I was around the PRes world, in my unit, it was a huge deal.  Smart Unit COs would realize this, IMO, and NOT cancel the dinner that is supposed to show appreciation to the SOLDIERS of the unit for all they did that year.  



> Do parades raise morale more than getting boots dirty in the field?  If the Men's Christmas Dinner is a parade like every other parade night in a Reserve Unit - what is attendance like?



I don't know many people who choose NOT to go to biggest part in The Regiment each year...you'd have been missing out on something, no question. 

As for the tradition of the Men's Christmas Dinner...taken from the link below:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/2PPCLI/RH-Honors_and_Traditions.asp

Traditions
The Military Christmas Dinner
Tis not the season to talk of Christmas as the snow has just departed and summer is at our door steps but then when a question arrises one must accept the challenge and find the answer.

Traditions come from somewhere and it takes a little reading and research to find out how one tradition started and where it came from. As for the tradition of the military Christmas dinner, its origins stem back to Roman times.

The custom of role reversal is a rather odd tradition for the military. The youngest member of the unit will switch tunics with the commanding officer for the day and in turn the officers and and senior NCOs will serve dinner to the enlisted members of the unit. The Roman customs of Saturnalia is where these activities originate. The festival of Saturnalia varied during the course of Roman times. It generally began as a feast for Saturn around December 17 and 18 and during the empire period it extended to a week.

The festival falls at the same time as other religions are celebrating Christmas, Hanukkah, Solstice and Kwanzaa. As with Christmas, garlands, wreaths and tree ornaments abound. The idea of the celebration was to promote merry making, rest and relaxation and to help the less fortunate. Food abounded and everyone shared.

During the celebrations of Saturnalia, children and slaves had the opportunity for a role reversal. They were entitled to be the parents/masters for a time. The parents and masters jokingly played the part of children and slaves. The biggest part of Saturnalia was the attitude and the children and slaves were allowed to make decisions and lead the rituals. It was all in fun and any decisions were reversed at the end of the day. Slaves weren't really free to make decisions and children weren't allowed to enter into contracts as the role reversal was only for minor privileges.

Before the introduction of mechanization of military units, enlisted personnel spent most of their time occupied by tedious tasks. In order to boost morale and overcome boredom, their officers took it upon themselves to arrange celebrations for the men. This included the organization and preparation of a Christmas dinner; the best Christmas dinner possible. Officers and senior NCOs not only prepared the meal but served it as well. Their task not complete until all was cleaned up.

As with Roman times, the Canadian Forces today practices a role reversal for minor privileges in a spirit of good cheer. During festive times, the Commanding officer will switch roles and tunic with the youngest member of the unit. The soldier becomes the honorary commander for the day.

The tradition of the Christmas dinner is a long standing one. It reinforces unit cohesion, fosters mutual respect and lets the troops know that their efforts throughout the year are appreciated. For these reasons, the tradition continues today.


----------



## Gunner98 (28 Nov 2009)

So to sum up - it is a party at which soldiers are made to feel appreciated, you eat some food and drink lots and of course since it is a parade so you get paid to attend and therefore, why would you miss it.  Sounds like a new formula for a weekend field exercise too bad they are not as well attended.  The parties as so far described get out of hand, the food is thrown and not eaten, the alcohol is drunk beyond a reasonable level and this of course ultimately raises unit morale - really.  

The fact that Regular Force Men's Christmas Dinners have become boring is because the sense of appreciation that soldiers are shown today does not involve throwing food and consuming large quantities of alcohol shortly after noon.  In my units the highlight of the holiday season has become giving accelerated promotions to deserving soldiers, now that is a good sign of appreciation.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Nov 2009)

I just looked at your profile, now I know why you don't seem to get it.

Enjoy your tea and cucumbers or whatever you do, leave the morale of the Jnr Ranks with those who know about it...the Snr NCOs, WOs, Sgt-Majors and RSMs.  

 :


----------



## George Wallace (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> So to sum up - it is a party at which soldiers are made to feel appreciated, you eat some food and drink lots and of course since it is a parade so you get paid to attend and therefore, why would you miss it.  Sounds like a new formula for a weekend field exercise too bad they are not as well attended.  The parties as so far described get out of hand, the food is thrown and not eaten, the alcohol is drunk beyond a reasonable level and this of course ultimately raises unit morale - really.
> 
> The fact that Regular Force Men's Christmas Dinners have become boring is because the sense of appreciation that soldiers are shown today does not involve throwing food and consuming large quantities of alcohol shortly after noon.  In my units the highlight of the holiday season has become giving accelerated promotions to deserving soldiers, now that is a good sign of appreciation.



Some fairly out to lunch assumptions on your part.


----------



## Loachman (28 Nov 2009)

What George said.

This is an important morale-building exercise. It is worth far more than the little that it costs. It will cost far more than any measly short-term savings should it be cancelled.

It is our traditions and heritage that sustain us in the present and future.


----------



## dapaterson (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I am not sure these arguments are strengthening the case.  If the Reg Force unit CO had full budget control and could manipulate his salary expenditures I could see your first point; however, this is not the case.  As for your second point, servers could be compensated but that would be relevant to the number of attendees.  My point was if we are riding on a declining budget trend, you have a decision to make between time/money to get boots dirty and napkins dirty, I think it should be an easy decision.  If it takes an Area Comd to make this decision for unit COs then that makes a statement.



And it will indeed make a statement- as the Reg F XMas blowouts will continue.  "You are second class."

Just like the Army Commander makes a very clear statement when he says "I have no money for Reserve fitness.  But I do have money for the Army Run."  "You are not important."

Perhaps not the intended messages, but they come through loud and clear - "You are not a priority."


Are morale building functions important for the military?  Definitely.  Are there admin bumph items we can can before we can things like the Seasonal Dinner?  Most definitely.



> Do parades raise morale more than getting boots dirty in the field?  If the Men's Christmas Dinner is a parade like every other parade night in a Reserve Unit - what is attendance like?



It depends.  Here, we invite back all serving pers with a connection to the unit, to renew old friendships and make new ones.  The padre passes the hat for the local mission, and collects non-perishables for the local food bank.  Awards are given out to acknowledge the work, contribution and commitment that people have shown over the past year.


Despite the best efforts of some, the military is not a faceless connection of replaceable cogs.  It is all about the people - and recognizing, embracing and supporting that reality is an important part of what we do.

On the Reserve side, there are fiscal realities.  True.  But a single Capt working class B as a  bumboy to the Area Comd will be paid $60-80K per year.  That would pay for 800 soldiers (average pay) to have their dinner.  Which is better for morale?  And how many bumboys have we inserted into the system so our ever-growing collection of seniors can feel important?

At the end of the day there is a balancing act with the Reserves.  Frankly, I'm at a point in my life where the money, though a nice to have, is not a prime motivator.  But the time commitment is significant, and there are many other things I could do, and would like to do, that my military commitment precludes.  Start expecting more unpaid service "because you should do it out of duty/loyalty/take your pick of emotional appeals" and you'll get people walking.


More on topic:  I've seen no such directive from the LFCA Comd at this point.


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2009)

I can shed some light on the original subject.

What we were told last Thursday is that LFCA is short about $7mil for the FY at this point. That shortfall has been distributed (I'mn not sure how) amongst all subordinate formations and units.

In my case, 33 Brigade has elected to make up the shortfall by ceasing all Class A reserve parading from 5 Dec until 21 Jan. Other people I've spoken to have said that 31 Brigade has ceased all parading for the remainder of the FY. I don't know if Class Bs are affected.

This is a real kick in the nuts for a lot of us coming into the Christmas season... Not a good time to be told we're for all intents and purposes laid off for six weeks. That said, we are a country coming out of a recession, and we are an army at war. Cuts have to be made. I just hope the army took a hard look at a lot of the superfluous, bullshit spending before they took a cut out of our budget. We now have courses and a lot of good scheduled training being cancelled because of this.


----------



## Gunner98 (28 Nov 2009)

Please enlighten me gents, on these assumptions and profile biases.  I thought we were sharing opinions not using veiled speech.  Because I do not share your opinion there must be something wrong with my assumptions or my profile contents.  Let's stick to facts and opinions. I have attended hundreds of unit functions (Regular and Reserve, Combat Arms and HS) including mess dinners and Christmas dinners which have provided many great memories but they have resulted in more unit discipline issues than they have ever increased morale.  IMHO sports days, inter-rank competitions, adventure training, properly conducted professional development and courses are more likely to raise *unit* morale than a booze-fueled party where an *individual's* personal morale is exaggeratedly heightened. 

We are not a country coming out of a recession our national debt sits at $.5 trillion and counting.  The markets and unemployment figures last week did not seem so bright.  Comd LFCA has not canceled Christmas, yet!


----------



## dapaterson (28 Nov 2009)

Courses such as BMQ are not paid for by the brigade - unless LFDTS has canned the course, it should still operate, even in the CBG main body is stood down.


----------



## brihard (28 Nov 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Courses such as BMQ are not paid for by the brigade - unless LFDTS has canned the course, it should still operate, even in the CBG main body is stood down.



Not recruit courses. The example I've got in mind is a Basic Mountain Ops that was going to be run within Brigade, and which has, from what we were told,  been canned. These days it's already obscenely rare (at least within 33CBG) to see a course run that isn't explicitly a career course, with the odd spot on a driver wheel thrown out to us just to keep the RQMS viable. Essentially, anything that in times past would have been called a QL4 just doesn't happen anymore.

I don't understand how the budgeting and fin codes for such courses work, but the Class A stand down was cited as the reason for this getting shut down. I acknowledge that ancillary skillsets are pretty much a luxury these days, but the reality remains that we have a core of senior MCpls and Cpls who have nothing but career courses under their belt- and good luck getting course loaded on anything once you've got a leaf.

It's difficult to explain the financial necessity of these cuts to my troops when there are so many readily apparent instances of excesses in spending across the board. I know Class Bs have already taken a big hit, but how far do they think the PRes can stretch? How are we supposed to force generate for OP Cadence without the cash to train?  How are we supposed to retain troops and expect maximum attendance when we can't hold up our end of the bargain and provide a reasonable amount of work and training in line with what they were told they could expect when they recruited? How are basic skillsets to be maintained and expanded without class A days in which to train?


----------



## tango22a (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner:

Keeping in mind that I have been retired for over twenty years, you're OUT TO LUNCH! If the party degenerates into a food fight....SO WHAT!! Does it offend your sensibilities to see some people that have busted their a$$es on a knotted together shoe string for years and years have a good time?

All I can say is that you sure have a very, very narrow outlook on life.


tango22a


----------



## Sprinting Thistle (28 Nov 2009)

The financial restraint is not just an LFCA problem.  Its an Army problem.  The Army just cancelled the next AOC Residency scheduled for January due to monetary shortages.  All those Army Capts who just completed the DL are now waiting to see if they are loaded on the next serial.


----------



## Haggis (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Do parades raise morale more than getting boots dirty in the field?  If the Men's Christmas Dinner is a parade like every other parade night in a Reserve Unit - what is attendance like?



If parades don't have an effect on morale, then why, in my Regiment, did troops find their ways back to their hometown from all over the country to participate in a Freedom of the City last May? 



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> Not recruit courses. The example I've got in mind is a Basic Mountain Ops that was going to be run within Brigade, and which has, from what we were told,  been canned.



The Basic Mountain Ops course was cancelled due to lack of instructors.  Your RSM has the details.



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> It's difficult to explain the financial necessity of these cuts to my troops when there are so many readily apparent instances of excesses in spending across the board. I know Class Bs have already taken a big hit, but how far do they think the PRes can stretch?



CLS has already stated that he will accept that "some things will not get done" as a result of the Class B cuts. However, I don't think he  has a true sense of what those "things" may be and the second and third order effects of their "not getting done".



			
				Brihard said:
			
		

> How are we supposed to force generate for OP Cadence without the cash to train?  How are we supposed to retain troops and expect maximum attendance when we can't hold up our end of the bargain and provide a reasonable amount of work and training in line with what they were told they could expect when they recruited? How are basic skillsets to be maintained and expanded without class A days in which to train?



it's a well known belief that Op CADENCE is the Army Reserve's chance to demonstrate the viability of the TBGs and it's ability to mount and execute domestic ops on a large scale.  The cynic in me could see this as an institutional attempt to undermine the viability and relevance of the Army Reserve. ("See?  We gave them ONE task, and they couldn't deliver!")


----------



## George Wallace (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> Please enlighten me gents, on these assumptions and profile biases.  I thought we were sharing opinions not using veiled speech.  Because I do not share your opinion there must be something wrong with my assumptions or my profile contents.  Let's stick to facts and opinions. I have attended hundreds of unit functions (Regular and Reserve, Combat Arms and HS) including mess dinners and Christmas dinners which have provided many great memories but they have resulted in more unit discipline issues than they have ever increased morale.  IMHO sports days, inter-rank competitions, adventure training, properly conducted professional development and courses are more likely to raise *unit* morale ........



Just to enlighten you, it is these Sports Days, Inter-rank Competitions, Adventure Training, Professional Development and Professional Courses outside of Career Courses that are taking the cuts.  In fact in some Trades, it is Trades Courses and Development/Continuation Trg that is being cut to fulfill IBTS Trg (which we all know is a waste of time, as everyone who has deployed in the past has had to redo it all with their respective BGs, sometimes several times).  So, what is one moral building event in a year to show appreciation to the troops?




			
				Simian Turner said:
			
		

> .....than a booze-fueled party where an *individual's* personal morale is exaggeratedly heightened.



This is what I find to be your most "out to lunch" opinion expressed throughout this thread.  I don't know where you have been, but only a "Reformed Alcoholic" who thinks his problem is held by all, would assume that all Christmas Dinners, held by all Units, Reg or Reserve, devolve into this type of activities.  As a Matter of fact, in the last ten to fifteen years I would say that trend has become rather rare.


----------



## Haggis (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> I have attended hundreds of unit functions (Regular and Reserve, Combat Arms and HS) including mess dinners and Christmas dinners which have provided many great memories but they have resulted in more unit discipline issues than they have ever increased morale.  IMHO sports days, inter-rank competitions, adventure training, properly conducted professional development and courses are more likely to raise *unit* morale than a booze-fueled party where an *individual's* personal morale is exaggeratedly heightened.



I, like George, will take issue with this assertion of yours.  I have attended well over thirty Reg and Res F "Mens'" Christmas dinners.  I have also served or assisted with a good number of officer's functions as well.  In my *opinion,* the NCMs are generally far better behaved than their "leaders".  However, to that I will add, as George stated above,  that this type of Neanderthal conduct is no longer the the norm.  It's the exception and is dealt with as such.  Yes, there is booze.  Yes, there is frivolity.  But that combination will exist at ANY mess dinner, in ANY Mess.  If that's a lynchpin in your rationale to cancel the Men's Christmas dinner then I submit to you that the same approach shall and must be taken for all Mess functions in all Messes.


----------



## tango22a (28 Nov 2009)

Gentlemen:

I can assure you that if I should be able to attend the WOs' and Sergeants' Mess Dinner my costs are NOT subsidized in any way. Add up 600km of travel, accommodations, and Dinner tariff, it adds up to a good chunk of change. I don't begrudge the time spent or money. It brings me back to my roots!

If able, I would be more than honoured to attend the Men's Christmas Dinner, doing set up, serving, and clean up as required. It's sort of a payback for all the years spent with my Regiment. Don't find any problems with that at all.


tango22a


----------



## the 48th regulator (28 Nov 2009)

Pay them, and serve 'em a good dinner.

We have 8 years of war, that have chewed up all people in the Military, Mentally and Physically.

Can we not use Fiscal Spending to aid the morale of soldiers, at least once a year?

Phuck me, are people that miserable?

dileas

tess


----------



## vonGarvin (28 Nov 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Pay them, and serve 'em a good dinner.
> 
> We have 8 years of war, that have chewed up all people in the Military, Mentally and Physically.
> 
> ...


Amen!


----------



## Gunner98 (28 Nov 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Just to enlighten you, it is these Sports Days, Inter-rank Competitions, Adventure Training, Professional Development and Professional Courses outside of Career Courses that are taking the cuts.  In fact in some Trades, it is Trades Courses and Development/Continuation Trg that is being cut to fulfill IBTS Trg (which we all know is a waste of time, as everyone who has deployed in the past has had to redo it all with their respective BGs, sometimes several times).  So, what is one moral building event in a year to show appreciation to the troops?
> 
> 
> This is what I find to be your most "out to lunch" opinion expressed throughout this thread.  I don't know where you have been, but only a "Reformed Alcoholic" who thinks his problem is held by all, would assume that all Christmas Dinners, held by all Units, Reg or Reserve, devolve into this type of activities.  As a Matter of fact, in the last ten to fifteen years I would say that trend has become rather rare.



So now I am a "reformed alcoholic" who needs "enlightenment", do you folks read the posts in this thread or just dream up new ways to embarass yourselves.  If everything else has been cut except the Men's Dinner and it is the last vestige to say "we appreciate you troops", then go ahead and have your dinner this year.  I guess I did not make this clear enough for you, if I was a Reserve Unit CO and I had my choice between funding field training and a Men's Dinner, I would choose to have my troops get their boots dirty. 

I guess what you are telling me that this is "the babbling of a biassed, assumption-filled, unenlightened, reformed alcoholic with his head up his a$$. "  Forgive me for expressing an opinion in this thread.  Happy a fine holiday season gents, I will go back to my 12-step program study notes, I must have missed something.

To enlighten you I have been told that LFCA HQ has canceled their Men's Dinner and are having a pot-luck lunch, is this leading by example?  What is "rather rare" is that like "kind of unique".  Finally it is "morale" not "moral" we are discussing, a little 'e' makes a big difference.


----------



## tango22a (28 Nov 2009)

Tess:

Double Dip: AMEN!!  AMEN!!


tango22a


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Nov 2009)

Simian Turner said:
			
		

> So now I am a "reformed alcoholic" who needs "enlightenment", do you folks read the posts in this thread or just dream up new ways to embarass yourselves.  If everything else has been cut except the Men's Dinner and it is the last vestige to say "we appreciate you troops", then go ahead and have your dinner this year.  I guess I did not make this clear enough for you, if I was a Reserve Unit CO and I had my choice between funding field training and a Men's Dinner, I would choose to have my troops get their boots dirty.
> 
> I guess what you are telling me that this is "the babbling of a biassed, assumption-filled, unenlightened, reformed alcoholic with his head up his a$$. "  Forgive me for expressing an opinion in this thread.  Happy a fine holiday season gents, I will go back to my 12-step program study notes, I must have missed something.
> 
> To enlighten you I have been told that LFCA HQ has canceled their Men's Dinner and are having a pot-luck lunch, is this leading by example?  What is "rather rare" is that like "kind of unique".  Finally it is "morale" not "moral" we are discussing, a little 'e' makes a big difference.



As I belive it was my little story of the good ol days while I was in The PEIR that led to your (inflated, IMO) statements that these dinners are alcohol fueled disciplinary incidents, I will chime in again:

- yes, lots of us drank more than allowable to legally drive a car.  So what?  I would like you to clearly state how this is BAD.

- some people got in trouble...again, so what?  I don't think the army wants a bunch of scared robots now, does it?  The guys I remember getting the eye of the RSM at functions like these were characters that had some balls and color to them.  They were also pretty damn good Jnr NCOs, crew commanders, leaders, and I'd of gone into the crap with any of them.  

- I believe Haggis made a comment of how the "senior in ranks" behaved at their Mess Dinners.  I, too, have witnessed the conduct that is normal at an Officers Mess Dinner and will state that, simply put, it was easily 400% worse than any Men's Dinner I ever attended.

- Having spent a few years as a Jnr NCO that sat at the dinner, I myself considered it an honour when I was promoted to Snr NCO and did my first Men's Dinner as part of the group serving our soldiers.  It was a chance to see them all, look them in the eye and shake their hands with a Merry Christmas or whatever as they came thru the receiving line on the way to the seating area.  I also remember cleaning up later, with the RSM standing there, and hearing the cheers from the Jnr Ranks mess as someone else who had been promoted bought a round, hearing the bell, then the loud cheer from all in the mess.  The RSM looked at me and the other 2 Sgts standing there and said "fuck its good some things haven't changed isn't it boys?".

This thread just reinforces what I think about how this PC stuff has gone WAY to far.  Soldiers aren't choir boys and girls; part of what I used to love was the play hard/work hard stuff.  

Lets leave our people to play hard at THEIR Christmas Dinner if they want to.  And look after them if they get alittle gooned, make sure they are safe, make sure their backs are covered, make sure they get home.  You know, that "looking after the welfare of your men" thing.

 :2c:


----------



## Remius (30 Nov 2009)

Regardless, with all the cuts being made, I'm sure the fact that the ARMY Ball is not getting cancelled will be justified with "morale reasons".

The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think.


----------



## Journeyman (30 Nov 2009)

Crantor said:
			
		

> The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think.


Could you explain?


----------



## OldSolduer (30 Nov 2009)

"The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think."

Yes, please explain.


----------



## Nfld Sapper (30 Nov 2009)

Crantor said:
			
		

> The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think.



I too am interested in your statement. Please explain......

op:


----------



## aesop081 (30 Nov 2009)

As much as i have enjoyed the dinner myself over the years, and that traditions are important, some of you guys make it sound like the dinner is all thats keeping the army from collapsing.

If the moral of the army depnds on one dinner late during the year, theres much bigger problems.


----------



## the 48th regulator (30 Nov 2009)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Regardless, with all the cuts being made, I'm sure the fact that the ARMY Ball is not getting cancelled will be justified with "morale reasons".
> 
> The army is going to get a reality check this summer I think.




The DND has decided to start an initiative, in conjunction with global warming, to cut back funding for regimental wear;









dileas

tess


----------



## Eye In The Sky (30 Nov 2009)

My eyes!  My eyes!!!  

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


----------



## dapaterson (30 Nov 2009)

Up the Guards!


----------



## vonGarvin (30 Nov 2009)

[slight tangent]
Moral: A lesson derived from a story.  In the plural, referring to a state of good versus evil.  (see "ethics")
Morale: A measure of the mood, attitude and overall well-being of a person or a group of persons.
[/slight tangent]

Mods: I nominate Tess to be banned from posting any more photos.   >


----------



## Gunner98 (30 Nov 2009)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> As I belive it was my little story of the good ol days while I was in The PEIR that led to your (inflated, IMO) statements that these dinners are alcohol fueled disciplinary incidents,
> :2c:



Please don't assume that your contributions affected my rationale. I have enough personal anecdotes that make your reminiscences seem like teenage antics.  From my times as a unit NPFAO arguing with senior staff about the quantity of beer required for the dinners -  to the cases of bottles (beer and wine) that just had to be consumed since they were all opened prior to the dinner's commencement.  The torn and soiled uniforms and of course a few DUIs that have resulted from these morale-raising noon-time activities.  As for the comments about officers' mess dinners I would suggest that these events should be seen as completely different in intent and history.  I have played my share of cabbage football and combat crud after dinners with the scars and deformations that resulted.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (30 Nov 2009)

And we're done here.

You kids get outside and play.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## McG (1 Dec 2009)

Crantor said:
			
		

> Regardless, with all the cuts being made, I'm sure the fact that the ARMY Ball is not getting cancelled will be justified with "morale reasons".


Is the Army Ball a public or non-public funded event?


----------



## Amak503 (6 Dec 2010)

Hello 

I have a question about the Mens Christmas Dinner or now refered to the Soldiers Holiday Dinner (I have already read all the posts about this controversy, it is not about that).  I have searched this site and all the usual search engines and I can't find the answer to my question.
What is the history of the Mens Christmas Dinner?  More specificaly about how it really started.  I have heard that it has something to do with a Canadian infantry Unit and the first one had something to do with a chicken farm.  I am looking for more information on this topic such as the war it happened in?(i assume it is World War 1)  I have talked with some other soldiers on this subject most had no idea one gave some information on it and another said I was being fooled.  I am familliar with how it works today and all the traditions but i would like to know it's history.

Thank you


----------



## PuckChaser (7 Dec 2010)

There's a thread here: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3136.0

Also, I found this on google: http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/v2/hst/page-eng.asp?id=630


----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Dec 2013)

Bumped with a new idea for those who don't like mentioning Christmas, with the usual Wikipedia caveats:


> .... Saturnalia is the best-known of several festivals in the Greco-Roman world characterized by role reversals and behavioral license.  Slaves were treated to a banquet of the kind usually enjoyed by their masters. Ancient sources differ on the circumstances: some suggest that master and slave dined together, while others indicate that the slaves feasted first, or that the masters actually served the food. The practice may have varied over time, and in any case slaves would still have prepared the meal ....


So, as the holidays creep upon us, please enjoy your ....
*All Ranks Saturnalia Banquet*
.... and a "Yo Saturnalia" to you all - togas optional   ;D


----------



## a_majoor (10 Dec 2013)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Bumped with a new idea for those who don't like mentioning Christmas, with the usual Wikipedia caveats:So, as the holidays creep upon us, please enjoy your ....
> *All Ranks Saturnalia Banquet*
> .... and a "Yo Saturnalia" to you all - togas optional   ;D



That would be togas with medals... ;D


----------



## vonGarvin (10 Dec 2013)




----------



## The Bread Guy (10 Dec 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> That would be togas with medals... ;D


Indeed - with patrol togas where applicable!

Yo Saturnalia!


----------



## Edward Campbell (10 Dec 2013)

Now, that's my kind of holiday ... maybe its' time for another trip to someplace warm.   :nod:


----------

