# division patch



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:28:52 -0400*
I have a WWI battle dress tunic.  The shoulder titles and buttons are
artillery.   Each sleeve has a black patch - the same size as a division
patch.   Does anybody know what this black patch represents?
Ubique
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net>* on *Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:35:03 -0700*
Bob,
        If you can send a scan, I‘ll be glad to look it up for you. Is it a
diamond shape, rectangular or other? This is something of an interest to me
as I‘ve been collecting for some years.
Francois
Beth MacFarlane wrote:
> I have a WWI battle dress tunic.  The shoulder titles and buttons are
> artillery.   Each sleeve has a black patch - the same size as a division
> patch.   Does anybody know what this black patch represents?
> Ubique
> Bob
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:37:14 -0700*
ummmm.. they wore the elbows out?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth MacFarlane" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 10:28 AM
Subject: division patch
Does anybody know what this black patch represents?
> Ubique
> Bob
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
> 
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:24:53 -0400*
Francois
Rectangular.  Haven‘t come across one like it before.  I collect mostly cap
badges and shoulder flashes. And you?
Bob
"F. A." wrote:
> Bob,
>
>         If you can send a scan, I‘ll be glad to look it up for you. Is it a
> diamond shape, rectangular or other? This is something of an interest to me
> as I‘ve been collecting for some years.
>
> Francois
>
> Beth MacFarlane wrote:
>
> > I have a WWI battle dress tunic.  The shoulder titles and buttons are
> > artillery.   Each sleeve has a black patch - the same size as a division
> > patch.   Does anybody know what this black patch represents?
> > Ubique
> > Bob
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net>* on *Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:33:17 -0700*
Bob,
I collect mostly cloth Cdn army WWII - to current, hat badges with exception of
CEF too much...must focus. As well I collect Army Cadet badges, any and all as
I‘m working on a book on cadet accoutrements in time for the 2004 125th
Anniversary of the Royal Canadian Army Cadets. I‘ve got a few traders right now
including a ‘PA Vols‘ WWII. This badge of yours sounds interesting...
curious... I wonder... it could be a very rare first issue 3rd Div WWII, they
didn‘t last long as the men thought it was bad luck to wear an all black badge.
Is it the same shape and size as the other div patches?
Francois
Beth MacFarlane wrote:
> Francois
>
> Rectangular.  Haven‘t come across one like it before.  I collect mostly cap
> badges and shoulder flashes. And you?
>
> Bob
>
> "F. A." wrote:
>
> > Bob,
> >
> >         If you can send a scan, I‘ll be glad to look it up for you. Is it a
> > diamond shape, rectangular or other? This is something of an interest to me
> > as I‘ve been collecting for some years.
> >
> > Francois
> >
> > Beth MacFarlane wrote:
> >
> > > I have a WWI battle dress tunic.  The shoulder titles and buttons are
> > > artillery.   Each sleeve has a black patch - the same size as a division
> > > patch.   Does anybody know what this black patch represents?
> > > Ubique
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Beth MacFarlane <elljay@nbnet.nb.ca>* on *Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:33:56 -0400*
Francois
Yes, it is the same size as a division patch although it is on a WWI tunic - not
WWII.  Send me a "wants" list some time and I‘ll see if I have anything.
Bob
"F. A." wrote:
> Bob,
>
> I collect mostly cloth Cdn army WWII - to current, hat badges with exception of
> CEF too much...must focus. As well I collect Army Cadet badges, any and all as
> I‘m working on a book on cadet accoutrements in time for the 2004 125th
> Anniversary of the Royal Canadian Army Cadets. I‘ve got a few traders right now
> including a ‘PA Vols‘ WWII. This badge of yours sounds interesting...
> curious... I wonder... it could be a very rare first issue 3rd Div WWII, they
> didn‘t last long as the men thought it was bad luck to wear an all black badge.
> Is it the same shape and size as the other div patches?
>
> Francois
>
> Beth MacFarlane wrote:
>
> > Francois
> >
> > Rectangular.  Haven‘t come across one like it before.  I collect mostly cap
> > badges and shoulder flashes. And you?
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > "F. A." wrote:
> >
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > >         If you can send a scan, I‘ll be glad to look it up for you. Is it a
> > > diamond shape, rectangular or other? This is something of an interest to me
> > > as I‘ve been collecting for some years.
> > >
> > > Francois
> > >
> > > Beth MacFarlane wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have a WWI battle dress tunic.  The shoulder titles and buttons are
> > > > artillery.   Each sleeve has a black patch - the same size as a division
> > > > patch.   Does anybody know what this black patch represents?
> > > > Ubique
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org>* on *Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:04:49 -0700*
Maybe someone has "modified" the tunic. since WW1?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth MacFarlane" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: division patch
> Francois
>
> Yes, it is the same size as a division patch although it is on a WWI
tunic - not
> WWII.  Send me a "wants" list some time and I‘ll see if I have anything.
>
> Bob
>
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"F. A." <zzzzzzz@telusplanet.net>* on *Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:32:27 -0700*
Bob
Oh, WWI, that changes things a bit. My guess is that it‘s a either a 5th Div Arty, 5th
Div Train Det or 14th Field Amb. all wore a very dark purple maroon rectangle. Could
this be it, aged? Anyone else have any ideas?
Francois
Beth MacFarlane wrote:
> Francois
>
> Yes, it is the same size as a division patch although it is on a WWI tunic - not
> WWII.  Send me a "wants" list some time and I‘ll see if I have anything.
>
> Bob
>
> "F. A." wrote:
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > I collect mostly cloth Cdn army WWII - to current, hat badges with exception of
> > CEF too much...must focus. As well I collect Army Cadet badges, any and all as
> > I‘m working on a book on cadet accoutrements in time for the 2004 125th
> > Anniversary of the Royal Canadian Army Cadets. I‘ve got a few traders right now
> > including a ‘PA Vols‘ WWII. This badge of yours sounds interesting...
> > curious... I wonder... it could be a very rare first issue 3rd Div WWII, they
> > didn‘t last long as the men thought it was bad luck to wear an all black badge.
> > Is it the same shape and size as the other div patches?
> >
> > Francois
> >
> > Beth MacFarlane wrote:
> >
> > > Francois
> > >
> > > Rectangular.  Haven‘t come across one like it before.  I collect mostly cap
> > > badges and shoulder flashes. And you?
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > "F. A." wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bob,
> > > >
> > > >         If you can send a scan, I‘ll be glad to look it up for you. Is it a
> > > > diamond shape, rectangular or other? This is something of an interest to me
> > > > as I‘ve been collecting for some years.
> > > >
> > > > Francois
> > > >
> > > > Beth MacFarlane wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I have a WWI battle dress tunic.  The shoulder titles and buttons are
> > > > > artillery.   Each sleeve has a black patch - the same size as a division
> > > > > patch.   Does anybody know what this black patch represents?
> > > > > Ubique
> > > > > Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > > message body.
> > > >
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > > message body.
> > >
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > > message body.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------



## army (23 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com>* on *Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:43:50 -0700*
The original colour of the 3rd Division was to have been black but was
changed to French Grey Bleu de horizon.
Reference: "Military Uniforms in Canada 1665-1970" Summers and Chartrand, pg
132. IIRC the black patch was decided against because it could be confused
with the blue of 2nd Div. But I don‘t recall seeing or reading of the black
patch actually being worn, but my knowledge isn‘t complete., and there just
aren‘t that many WW1 tunics left in collections like there are of metal
badges.
With only the rectangular patch, this would make the wearer a member of Div
HQ or elements, reference: chart from Clive Law. So that seems to fit with
div. field arty.
French Grey was authorized 23 May 1917. Reference: 3rd Canadian Division
Routine Order No. 1839 of that date.
It might be helpful to check the date of manufacture of the tunic. If it was
dated 1918 then my theory of early 3rd Div is incorrect.
Very interesting. Begs the question, just what did 3rd Div wear throughout
1916 and early 1917?  Please keep me informed if you get more information.
----- Original Message -----
From: Beth MacFarlane 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 10:28 AM
Subject: division patch
> I have a WWI battle dress tunic.  The shoulder titles and buttons are
> artillery.   Each sleeve has a black patch - the same size as a division
> patch.   Does anybody know what this black patch represents?
> Ubique
> Bob
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
message body.


----------

