# Yikes ! (STAT)



## Farmboy

Wow, I am amazed at some of the people on here. I thought most of us were supposed to be members of the CF, not kindergarden.

 What got me was two threads where new/young members were hammered with negitive comments. When a moderater first belittles someone and then closes the topic that makes a piece of me hurt.

 What happpened to being a professional?

 Yes I understand that after you have been on a forum for a while you see repeated questions on the same subjects. Take a deep breath before you respond and point them in the right direction.

 Encourage and motivate people to go after their dreams. Don‘t grab it out of the air and stomp on it. Most people will find something else that they like to do along the way, and a few make it all the way.

 Everyone joined or wants to join for different reasons, some want to medics, pastors, lawyers, supply, mechanics,pilots, crewman and yes some of us joined to go all the way. Do you think that you telling people not to aim high helps them or the Forces?

 Everyone should point to the path and say "There is the road, go for it".


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## ErorZ

Agreed Farmboy, I‘ve noticed alot of that too...

People should remember that if different people didn‘t ask the same qusetions over and over again... you wouldn‘t have a forum anymore... EVERYTHING has been asked before, somewhere!


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## dano

Professionalism is extravagant!


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## girlfiredup

I like you Farmboy.  You have a good soul.


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## combat_medic

Farmboy: Since you‘re not acquainted with the post that was deleted, prompting the closing of the thread, I‘m going to take what you say with a grain of salt. Also, since you‘re new to both the army and to this forum, I‘ll keep that in mind.

The majority of the people on this forum are trained soldiers with years of experience under their belt. They come here to talk about matters concerning the military, but are continuously bombarded with the same repetitive questions on a daily basis, the vast majority of which could be answered with a 2 minute search on the forum, or on Google. Kids who are lazy and complacent come on here all the time and expect us to do their work for them, because they can‘t we bothered to do a simple web search. Is it any wonder they‘re treated with a measure of hostility?

In addition, a lot of kids with no military experience show up and talk bull about all their knowledge and time in, when really all they know is video games, Vietnam movies, and the gophers they shot with their .22. 

I‘m sure you can understand the frustration that these repeated useless requests generate. And, as you progress in your military career, you‘ll find that the dressing downs handed out here are nothing compared to what the same people would give you in real life. 

However, the kids who show up with a bit of respect, humility and decorum usually get their questions answered, and are afforded a measure of respect for their intelligence.


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## dano

Well said.


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## Farmboy

> Kids who are lazy and complacent come on here all the time and expect us to do their work for them, because they can‘t we bothered to do a simple web search


They can do the search and probably have many times, they don‘t want you to do the work for them, they want you to talk to them. They don‘t know that this probably won‘t happen.



> In addition, a lot of kids with no military experience show up and talk bull about all their knowledge and time in, when really all they know is video games, Vietnam movies, and the gophers they shot with their .22.


Yes this does happen alot, however the ideal way to handle it is to post a link or ignore it all together.

 You would agree however that kids and adults that have shot gophers with their .22s probably have more firearm and shooting knowledge than the majority of the Reserves if not the Reg. force.

 Your right I don‘t know what the post was that was deleted however I can and have read all the other posts, and some are pretty harsh in their response.

 I have seen some "dressing downs" so far in the forces but it was never 10 "superiors" making fun of the guy who screwed up.


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## Jeff Boomhouwer

What ever happened to that guy JTF2SNIPER? Pretty bold name for someone with zero mil ex. He was in the process of joining talked some s**t about nothing however did get some questions answered and receved some encouragement about having his heart in the right place. What I‘m getting at is some of these kids feel they need to impress everyone with U.F.I they read in a book. Well I have read the bible but stii can‘t walk on water. Serious questions will get real responses. The C7 C9 debate is about as interesting as the M16 C7 debate.


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## Jarnhamar

"They can do the search and probably have many times, they don‘t want you to do the work for them, they want you to talk to them. They don‘t know that this probably won‘t happen."

I disagree. You tell someone their name is silly, they can‘t carry 12 knives, can‘t carry their own sawed off grenade launcher or the army isn‘t all about blowing away bad guys and they take an attitude with you, tell you to f off, try and discredit your military experience and act like children who are scolded by their parents. This isn‘t always the case but i‘ve found it happens a lot.   You can tell someone something 100 times and they won‘t listen until you raise your voice. You can‘t handle everyone with kid glows my friend. before you judge the people who have been here a while walk a little bit in their shoes. 99% of the time i‘ve seen people confronted with the comment "You could have done a search" they confess they didn‘t think of it. When people ignore a new commers questions (instead of giving them a harsh response for example) the person gets just as mad.


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## winchable

Ignoring it all together conveys a message of non-involvment by the moderator staff, perhaps encouraging more posts of that nature.

As for the searching for topics; this is important because threads that waste bandwidth are a huge problem on this site, as it stands now Mr. bobbit is running on an overloaded backup because of the sheer volume of posts. We try to conserve bandwidth as much as possible, by discouraging repeat posts.

I don‘t think I would agree that the person shooting gophers with a .22 neccessarily has more knowledge then reg or reserve personnell, someone in the combat arms can correct me if I‘m wrong on that point.

Rest assured the moderator staff discuss the bannings, dressing downs etc. and with the wide breadth of personalities we hope to address every situation case by case for the best outcome.

When it comes to dressing down, we do it for the express purpose of maintaining a professionalism that makes this board well known and popular, if it weren‘t for the dressing down the board would be overrun (even more so than it is already) with jtfnintendosniper‘s. The outcome of this is embarassing for the CF members on the board etc. etc.


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## brin11

> You would agree however that kids and adults that have shot gophers with their .22s probably have more firearm and shooting knowledge than the majority of the Reserves if not the Reg. force.


I respectfully and strongly disagree with this statement.  The vast majority of weapons use is weapons safety and handling.  Not all units are constantly at the range but, rest assured, most are extremely professional and have a strong understanding of handling practices.  This is a far cry from the civvy gopher hunters I‘ve met.  I can‘t stress these safety practices enough and the CF beats it into your head day and night!


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## Pikache

I think the problem with most noobs that come here is that they think this is THEIR house. No, it‘s not.

It‘s house of Mr Bobbitt, who have kindly allowed people to come into HIS house which HE pays for, so that people can have good discussions pertaining to Canadian army and other relevant topics.

So, I think those noobs who come here and think they know all being loud and obnoxious and frankly, lacking in manners, need to learn to be quiet. Who goes to over someone‘s house and be so disrespectful to the owner, considering that you don‘t know the owner of the house?

The member of CF are here are more than happy to answer your questions. We like the fact that young people and other civillians take an interest in the military. Some of us go out of our way to answer questions, however dumb some of them may be.

We don‘t ask much. We ask that if you have a question, please do ask, but ONLY AFTER YOU HAVE RUN A SEARCH ON THIS FORUM OR ON GOOGLE or other search engines. We DO NOT want to answer anymore questions about how to be JTF2 or be sniper on your first year in the army and what not.

If you are NEW and want to learn about Canadian army, you‘ll get more knowledge here anywhere in the cyberspace, in my opinion. In fact, the current and former members of CF here continue to learn from each other on this board through exchange of information and opinions.

So, if you are NEW, I strongly suggest that all of you LISTEN before talking. As an old proverb goes, "Silence is the beginning of wisdom".
We do not care how many times you went hunting or go to a gun club. As far as we‘re concerned, if you have NEVER BEEN in the military, DON‘T ANSWER questions about characteristics of a C6 GPMG or its employment (for example), because frankly, you probably know ZIP about it, nor do we care for your UNINFORMED opinion.
But if there is a topic that your opinion may be valuable, such as politics or what is a good beer, please share.
But note that your standing in this forum is judged on QUALITY of your posts, not how much you run your mouth.

Everyone here is a guest of Mr.Bobbitt. Your freedom of speech ends at the doorsteps of Mr. Bobbitt‘s house. If he, or the moderators he has chosen don‘t like you talking stupid and being unmannerly, we‘ll boot you out the door.

I think everyone in this forum want a good, quality forum that everyone can enjoy. To keep that, please think of the points I made in this post.

Thanks for your attention.


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## Farmboy

> So, if you are NEW, I strongly suggest that all of you LISTEN before talking


How long do we have to listen before we can ask or discuss things? After we have browsed for a couple months and read everything?



> We do not care how many times you went hunting or go to a gun club. As far as we‘re concerned, if you have NEVER BEEN in the military, DON‘T ANSWER questions about characteristics of a C6 GPMG or its employment (for example), because frankly, you probably know ZIP about it, nor do we care for your UNINFORMED opinion.


I remember Ozzy saying once about Randy Roades that every town they stopped in, he would take a guitar lesson from someone. I found that very interesting that someone so great would still learn from everyone he dealt with.



> I think everyone in this forum want a good, quality forum that everyone can enjoy. To keep that, please think of the points I made in this post.


This is very much agreed upon. 

 I also like the fact that this discussion has stayed fairly pleasent so far.

 I still disagree about the firearms though


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## Pikache

> How long do we have to listen before we can ask or discuss things? After we have browsed for a couple months and read everything?


I‘m commenting on too many people who talk before thinking.
Too many new guys lack maturity and judgement on when to talk and when to listen. IMO, they‘ll get a better idea when to talk after they‘ve been listening for a while.



> I remember Ozzy saying once about Randy Roades that every town they stopped in, he would take a guitar lesson from someone. I found that very interesting that someone so great would still learn from everyone he dealt with.


Do you tell a pilot how to fly if you‘re not a pilot yourself? I, as an infanteer, would not tell an aviation tech how to fix a plane.

Likewise don‘t comment on things you don‘t know. Not only it‘s annoying when someone who has no clue provide inaccurate information or post stupid comments that can derail otherwise a good discussion.


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## 1feral1

In my view (28 yrs service in two armies), there is no such thing as a stupid question? 

Its how you go about asking it.

Regards,
Wes


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## Farmboy

I should have clarified and put "guitar teacher" instead of "someone".


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## winchable

Farmboy has anything that‘s been said here helped you realise our (moderator staff & senior members) position when it comes to new members?


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## -rb

I have been visiting this site for approx. 1 year, with no mil experience i have yet to find a reason to post, other than telling someone to search instead of blab away.

I come here to find info from those who know, and common sense and a bit of web etiquette tells me to search through all resources available to me before posting. This may be army.ca , dnd site etc etc, the list goes on and i find it frustrating as well to sift through useless and irrelevant posts with no substance or value to anyone on this forum. 

there are entry reqs to get in to the forces, how about some for army.ca, it would at least ensure that those coming here have done their homework and have a right to be here, fail the reqs, fail to post.

just my 2 cents.
cheers.


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## Slim

> You would agree however that kids and adults that have shot gophers with their .22s probably have more firearm and shooting knowledge than the majority of the Reserves if not the Reg. force.
> [/QB]
> 
> 
> 
> Saying things like that is what gets people POed at you in the first place!
> 
> And that is most certainly not true. Get into the service, do some time, then tell me how a bunch of civvies can shoot better than all of the army "know-it-alls."
> 
> Just the opinion of an army Know-it-all! Take it for what its worth.
Click to expand...


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## Michael OLeary

There is a fundamental truth in much of what Farmboy and yukon are saying. We have a lot of experience on this board and many contributors including the moderators are here almost continuously. Many of the questions that are offered receive good answers, but sometimes, the tangents and the repetitive responses create a fair bit of static in some threads.

I must admit it‘s become a pet peeve of mine when one of the regulars has stepped in to shut down a needless thread by referring to past threads or advising the asker to search and then that valid response (which should have ended the discussion) is followed by multiple and unnecessary additions that reinforce but do not add to the admonishment, or a haphazard continuance of the thread by others who should also have followed the first responser‘s advice.

Often the first question was asked out of innocence and ignorance, but not to intentionally set any one off. Similarly many of those nicknames have been chosen by young and uninformed people who have no idea how you might react to it. The real crime often comes from the ‘second man in‘ delivering an unnecessary "hit" which then only creates a hostile atmosphere where one polite but firm response was enough.


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## Farmboy

Che, yes I do know moderaters position since I am one on another site, and frequent many other forums. I have never seen a moderator belittle someone and then lock the thread.

 Slim, alot of the best shooters are civilian, and it is very easy for civilian to be better than the military. I myself shoot over 80 rounds a month just throught my .300WM, then if I factor in my .308, .223, .22, shotguns and the ORA and local sniper matches I probably shoot more than 80% of the military. So yeah I still back up my statements, you can back up yours though by coming out to the Listowel Counter Sniper Match Apr. 24.

 Michael, quite right.


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## Slim

> Originally posted by Farmboy:
> [qb] Che, yes I do know moderaters position since I am one on another site, and frequent many other forums. I have never seen a moderator belittle someone and then lock the thread.
> 
> Slim, alot of the best shooters are civilian, and it is very easy for civilian to be better than the military. I myself shoot over 80 rounds a month just throught my .300WM, then if I factor in my .308, .223, .22, shotguns and the ORA and local sniper matches I probably shoot more than 80% of the military. So yeah I still back up my statements, you can back up yours though by coming out to the Listowel Counter Sniper Match Apr. 24.
> 
> Michael, quite right. [/qb]


Would you like me to bring all of the gold medals I have earned for pistol and rifle shooting? Or how about C7,C8,C9,C6,C5,C3,C2,C1,Sterling 9mm, KarG, M72 and the list goes on.

And be advised, bench resting your hand howitzer, then standing up to gab with a bunch of other geeks about how good you all are, is not quite the same as shooting under threat or in a military enviorment.

And I wouldn‘t go around calling yourself a sniper either...A real one might read your comments and take offence...or are you better than them too?!


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## muskrat89

> I myself shoot over 80 rounds a month just throught my .300WM, then if I factor in my .308, .223, .22, shotguns and the ORA and local sniper matches I probably shoot more than 80% of the military. So yeah I still back up my statements, you can back up yours though by coming out to the Listowel Counter Sniper Match Apr. 24.


Then it‘s fairly safe to say that you are not, primarily, a gopher hunter. If you meant to say that you, based on your interest/pastime/hobby have more experience than many military people.... than that is what you should have said.


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## 1feral1

I have been sitting back reading some of these posts, and I am beginnig to wonder. There is more to soldiering than shooting a rifle. 

Having someone compare their civvy hobby to a professional soldier‘s weapons handling and shooting skills is fact, quite ouragous.

How can ya‘s go on and compare civ/mil with all this un-needed private boasting. 80rds a month of some civvy calibre plus other stuff is a joke, sorry but it is. Good for a hobby though, can‘t knock that , nor would I. I would encourage as much civvy shooting as one can take.

What this tells me is not much experience in the trade, the forces, and in general, a lack of maturity.

I am like others on here, I am a professional soldier, myself an armourer by trade (and former Infanteer), and I love my work.

I often shoot a mininum of 900rds of 5.56 x 45mm F1 ball a week, and then there is other weapons too. Infact I shoot so much I have to get my blood tested for lead every 12 months.

Civvy bench shooting or ‘civvy counter sniper matches‘ is a far cry form pan-climatic fire and movement, and hitting tgts consistantly (under a variety of pressures), and consisivly at Section, Platoon or Coy level, after running about for distances unknown when its 45C in the shade. 

Its about teamwork and fighting thru the objective, and getting everyone thru unhurt. Its about trusting your mates who may be behind you, ‘off safe‘ with a loaded IW or MG. 

Proper marksmanship principles, and weapons handling are learned, not born with, although some people will tend to have a natural skill which needs enhancing.

There are other factors from appropiate safety handling, general knowledge, command and control, and more serious things too which I will not bother to touch on. 

I have owned guns since I was 9 yrs old. I have competed in international matches, and civvy IPSC etc over 25 years. 

The military forces even have the GD generic police (and RCMP) beat when it comes to weapons handling. Often they qualifiy once a yr. 

Shooting civvy is way different form military, and at anything, its just a hobby, where shooting for me, and others here on this site, it is our job and way of life. I can‘t even comprehend to compare a ‘civvy‘ hobby with the real world, sorry.

So, boys, pull your heads in and stop making fools of yourselves.

Time to lock up this thread.

OUT,

Wes


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## Slim

Thanks Wes

You said what I wanted to get across...The young one got my blood up.

Slim


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## 1feral1

We were all young once, and I can only describe myself as a 21 yr old locked in a 44 yr old body. 

Hopefully the blokes in question will take heed and not offence to what I had to say.

After all we are all on the same side.

Cheers and beers,

Wes


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## winchable

> Che, yes I do know moderaters position since I am one on another site, and frequent many other forums. I have never seen a moderator belittle someone and then lock the thread.


Sorry to stir this up again, I just got in and re-read the thread and felt need to bring the thread back to topic, and continue it because it is a valid point.

Locking threads that waste bandwidth is a valid method of conserving bandwidth by preventing a topic from spiraling into oblivion, or breaking down into a pee-pee match.
As for belittling, you say belittle we say set examples in a proactive manner. There have been in the past, many very very seriously problematic posters who have brought the threads to their knees and done much more harm then good. 

Moderators who have been here long enough are good enough so that we can pick out problem posters in their first few messages, and mostly as a defense mechanism sort them out in what some might call a belittling manner, this much is not going to change about the board.

It‘s not us trying to feel big, it‘s not us being sadistic, it‘s protecting the site from people who put lewd pictures in their avatars or post constantly taking up bandwidth with questions about how they can be a sniper (which is easy enough to find if searched for.)
Rest assured if you find something a moderator does to be rude or belittling, one instance of this will (99% of the time) prevent 20 other posters creating nonsense threads, using all capitals to post and other general nettiquete offences, mouthing off to anyone and everyone who tries to discuss.


I am guessing that your site you moderate on is not a military site, this site is, there is a certain amount of discipline that is maintained on this site as a result of the real profession of the moderators and to keep out damaging posters.

I am not going to defend the actions or persona‘s of the other site moderators, as I think anything we do on this site (be it seemingly rude sometimes) contributes to the overall professionalism of the board in the long run.


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## Jarnhamar

Interesting debate.  I think a great point was brought up. Being a good shooter doesnt make you a good soldier. It bothers me to see how many infantry soldiers can‘t pass their pwt and shoot poorly, i blame the army for not giving them enough practice. I would still rather a good soldier whos an OK shot than someone whos a great shot and can‘t even make a march out to a shooting rage because their so out of shape. Or get lost in the woods. 
I‘m lucky because i‘ve been shooting since i was 8.  Theres lots of people out there who can grab a rifle, lay down on the ground rest the rifle on a sand bag, bench or whatever and shoot very very good. Everyones good at something right? Im sure many civilians (*Who are interested in shooting*) can shoot just as good if not better then many soldiers because they get more practice.  Like it was also said, theres a big difference between shooting unmoving targets on a sunny day at a range and shooting in a military type enviroment. ie section attacks, jungle lanes etc..  In a way i think your almost comparing apples and oranges.  I‘m a pretty good shooter myself, i supose my biggest claim to fame is a few dinky best shot awards and always scoring perfect on the ptw3. (A test where you dont just lay down and fire but have to A) run and be in shape, B) use different firing positions and C) shoot at different types of targets, some popping up and down. Mentioned for the civies who dont know.) I get a little skeptical around people who make a point of telling others how good/tough/smart they are  when first meeting them, just a personal thing. 

Farmboy were those pictures on here of the .300 and .308 i believe (from another post) yours? Either way those were some beautiful rifles. How does someone put a picture into a thread like that?


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## Franko

Good points Wes and Ghost....

I‘m not going to say another word...don‘t want to "belittle" anyone.   

April 24th? Hmmmmmmmm

Have to see if I‘m IN THE FIELD or ON THE RANGES firing Coyote.   

Regards


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## Franko

> Originally posted by Farmboy:
> [qb]  Slim, alot of the best shooters are civilian, and it is very easy for civilian to be better than the military. I myself shoot over 80 rounds a month just throught my .300WM, then if I factor in my .308, .223, .22, shotguns and the ORA and local sniper matches I probably shoot more than 80% of the military. So yeah I still back up my statements, you can back up yours though by coming out to the Listowel Counter Sniper Match Apr. 24. [/qb]


80 rounds a month? Not very much if you ask me.
Where is this and what is the max range of the range? Just currious....

Might come out for a bit of fun.

Slim...you wanna come to? Get in some real LONG distance shooting in? Like back in the day, as the youngins like to say....

Regards


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## Farmboy

Quite a few good points made by everyone. Also alot of assumptions made as well.

 Yes the site I moderate is a BMQ site that has never has a thread locked or a post erased (could be as well that we all know each other).

 I did not realize this site had a bandwidth problem so I can understand locking threads for that purpose.

 My age was obviously assumed because of the nature of my posts. I‘m 30 by the way, doing BMQ.

 No your right good shooting does not make a good soldier, however all I had said was alot of kids and adults who shoot groundhogs with .22s have more firearm knowledge than alot of CF members.

 Yes I would love to take any out to the ranges to shoot. The more people who enjoy it the better. I shoot at Oshawas Skeet and Gun Club out to 300yds and at Borden with the ORA out to 800yds. Finding a private club with a range past 300yds is a wee bit difficult though.

  80 rounds of ONLY .300WM is alot if the military is not paying for it   

  Yes those are my rifles, thanks. To put a pic in a thread just put 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 at the end with no spaces. It would look like this 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Yes I get skeptical to of people telling me how good they are, however I was responding to questions about my knowledge and never said I good, just that I shot alot.

 This here would be doing that


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## Franko

I too get sceptacle with some of the guys who mouth off about their skills. Usually inviting them to the Batoche range in Gagetown and having them shoot at the 400m mark for a warm up and pushing back to the 800m shuts them up real fast....Slim knows what I‘m talking about.

We just take offense to people who show little or no respect to the troops that actually know how to ply their craft and do so on a regular basis. I personally know a few guys who have done some far out shooting on a 2 way range...not going to name names, but they are here on this site, lurking, not doing alot of posting.

Most of the other elements don‘t know what we do or how we do it....please don‘t lump us in with them. The troops that do reply in an angry form are usually, for the most part pissed at guys who "talk the talk" and haven‘t served a minute in an actual combat unit.

Give it a few years and you‘ll see what I mean   

Regards


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## Slim

> Originally posted by Franko:
> Slim...you wanna come to? Get in some real LONG distance shooting in? Like back in the day, as the youngins like to say....
> Regards [/QB]


Hey Franko

Now you know I am primarily a "pistol" guy and all of my recent shooting is with a pistol.(I use a Glock now, not the difficult old BHP) Having said that I would long to go out and use the long guns again...kind of miss it.

Let me know when...

Slim
  :threat:


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## combat_medic

Farmboy: From your original post on this thread, I thought you had a very good point, and I and others have tried to address it in the best way we could.

From there, you appear to have turned into another one of the wannabes that we all rile against. Your statements about how you‘re a better shot than most of the CF for starters. I‘ve spent a fair bit of time on both civilian and military ranges, and I can say that there is no comparison to be made. Civvies spend thousands of dollars on some high-speed, low drag rifle, then sandbag the weapon in place, fire one round at a time, and are adjusting with a high powered spotting scope. They can make any customization to their own weapons, buy or make the best ammo possible, and never have to move from their position.

Compare this to a soldier. They‘re all shooting the same weapon and the same ammo (manufactured by the lowest bidder), cannot customize anything, for the most part, and are firing in unsupported positions, including prone, kneeling and standing. They often are running at a full sprint before firing, and have to control fire on semi and fully automatic.

No comparison.

One kid on my basic was talking crap about how he was such a fantastic shot, and all the awards he won both civvie side and in cadets. With a C7 and issue ammo, he couldn‘t hit the broad side of a barn.

Your moderating on a site full of basic training buddies is also not lending much credence to your "experience."

Several of the moderators and "old boys" on this forum have given you some pretty good advice. Take it for what it‘s worth, but I would lay off your civilian shooting experience for the time being, as this thread is turning into a pissing match as well.


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## Korus

> Usually inviting them to the Batoche range in Gagetown and having them shoot at the 400m mark for a warm up and pushing back to the 800m shuts them up real fast....


Wow.. I‘d love to give something like that a shot (no pun intended) sometime.. I‘ve never done any long range shooting, just the C7 PWT. All my civvie shooting experience has been at short ranges. When I‘m done with Uni (read: can afford to) I want to start doing a lot more shooting on civvie side, as a hobby.

Sorry for the tangent there...


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## Farmboy

> Your statements about how you‘re a better shot than most of the CF for starters.


If you could point to were I said this...

Stop reading more into what I say and just read what I wrote.


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## combat_medic

"You would agree however that kids and adults that have shot gophers with their .22s probably have more firearm and shooting knowledge than the majority of the Reserves if not the Reg. force."

"Slim, alot of the best shooters are civilian, and it is very easy for civilian to be better than the military. I myself shoot over 80 rounds a month just throught my .300WM, then if I factor in my .308, .223, .22, shotguns and the ORA and local sniper matches I probably shoot more than 80% of the military. So yeah I still back up my statements, you can back up yours though by coming out to the Listowel Counter Sniper Match Apr. 24."

Seems a lot of machismo in both of these statements.


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## 1feral1

The C7, F88IW and other 5.56 x 45mm wpns. No long range shooting for these, as look at the effective range of the rifle itself. 

In the days of the C1, I remember all too well the 600 metre run downs, with from 100 metres to 25 metres, walking the last bit with firing 1 shot on every 5th step, all of course well keeping ones dressing.

Gone are those days, with that ‘1964 patttern webbing‘ with no mag pouches, and that silly grenade pouch.

Cheers,

Wes


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## Slim

> Originally posted by Farmboy:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your statements about how you‘re a better shot than most of the CF for starters.
> 
> 
> 
> If you could point to were I said this...
> 
> Stop reading more into what I say and just read what I wrote. [/qb]
Click to expand...

You‘re starting to get multiple messages from different people all with a common thread. 

Military shooting is not sandbagging your super-customized-rocketlaunching-whatever and plinking one round every five minutes. And saying a bunch of Saturday afternoon shooters can outperform the military at their own game is ridiculous. You‘re not a soldier yet (no matter what the recruiting centre has told you!) so wait and see what sort of skill set is out there before you go around bragging like a 12 year old kid about how great you all are. What sort of reply did you expect in a forum full of professinal soldiers?!

And listen to Combat_medic...She has put some excellent points forward that you seem determined not to listen to...Maybe you should as she IS a soldier...


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## crhc

Unfortunately us folk that carry weapons for our profession don‘t get to shot as much as we should.

An old cop told me " We don‘t train enough on the issued equipement we use the least but will have the greatest impact on our life if we use it."


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## Franko

> Originally posted by Wesley H. Allen, CD:
> [qb] In the days of the C1, I remember all too well the 600 metre run downs, with from 100 metres to 25 metres, walking the last bit with firing 1 shot on every 5th step, all of course well keeping ones dressing.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wes [/qb]


Memories......   

And God help you if you set your blow back to ZERO   

How I miss the FN...  :crybaby: 

Regards


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## Jarnhamar

....Off on a tangent. Reminds me of paintballers who spend thousands of dollars on equipment and get shot in the hand with in the first 3 minutes then complain, forever.  Always an excuse for poor performance with that type.

Hey Franko, whats an FN?


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## Franko

Ghost....for being silly







 

Regards


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## portcullisguy

I think there is a vast amount of shooting knowledge and experience in the civvie world, as well as the military world.

There are also total plugs in both realms.

I have some experience and am comfortable and confident in my knowledge obtained from civvie shooting experience, and I somewhat comfortable with my military firearms experience (and getting more so).  I do not think I will ever be a master sniper, or achieve too many marksmanship awards, but I score well in my PWT‘s and in civvie land, I hit the targets consistently with good groupings.

Since I do not compete, either in the military or outside of it, I do not concentrate too much on achieving the highest scores possible or testing the limitations of the firearms I use.

I believe it is grossly unfair to compare military to civilian shooting, and visa versa.  Like I said, there is an ample amount of experience on both sides of the fence.

I can just as easily find examples of very poor firearms habits in both areas, as well.  I will say that as a general rule, the civilian world is not overly impressed with the military attitude towards safety, etc.

Just this week, on the DP2A support weapons course, I‘ve had the 9mm pistol pointed at me numerous times by my fellow classmates, simply because of a lack of care and attention to safety.  Most of this is when soldiers are spinning the pistol on their finger like Clint Eastwood, or pretending to be JTF2 house clearers when rounding corners.  In the civvie world, this would earn you a criminal charge for "point firearm" and would get you thrown out of any safety course or gun club in the country.

Likewise, civvie shooters do not always know everything there is to know about weapons, and in any event have different goals and applications.

The bottom line is, IMO, "My civ/mil experience is better than yours" is a pedestrian and irrelevant comparison to make.  This goes equally for the new kids who have vast opinions on shooting based on zero experience, as well as old dogs who are entirely familiar with one scope or aspect of weapons (either mil or civ) and have never even seen or experienced the other.


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## Slim

PCG

I read your post and, while trying to be fare to both groups,You have somewhat missed the point.

The civvies shooting world has all kinds of people who can shoot. I know because I have belonged to and shot with numerous gun clubs and individuals who own and operate weapons.

As a matter of fact, the last award I won in the service was for pistol shooting. The award was DCRA/ORA, conducted at the ranges in Borden. It is a military shoot, designed by civvies, specifically for the reserves. The tradition goes back several hundred years or so. 

No one is disputing anyones ability to shoot.

My issue with the creator of this post is his belief that the Military takes second place to civvies who shoot. His comments, posted on a military forum are antagonistic and provocative toward the military members here...He also seems very uninformed about military shooting and, judging by his profile, has not been in the service for any decent length of time and is not capable of distinguishing the two different applications.

If you have witness some Jerk pointing a weapon at you or anyone else then you should have done something about it! If the person is your friend them tell them off, if not see the MCPL in charge. Bad weapons handling has no excuses attached to it. I know as I lost an uncle to some jerk discharging his weapon "by accident".

We are here to discuss things in a calm and civilized manner. That does not include having someone making statements like the poster of this thread did.

It reflects badly on himself and the rest of us and makes this forum look foolish in the eyes of who ever else comes to see what is happening here.

Slim


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## Spr.Earl

From the Humped Back Rat point of view.
Why waste lead just BIP it.


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## Farmboy

Obviously there will be no changing of minds or opinion on this.

 The one thing I would like to clear up is this misconception that I think the military shooting is second to civvy shooting.



> alot of kids and adults who shoot groundhogs with .22s have more firearm knowledge than alot of CF members.


Does that say that anywhere?  What I did compare was the kids and adults who shoot ground hogs every day to alot of CF members who shoot once or twice a year.

 In my comments I was responding to one of you who said you are sick of questions from kids who shoot ground hogs with .22s.

 What we all do agree upon is shooting at a civvy range is alot difference then combat shooting.    Even if some of the matches were devoloped for police marksman (Listowel) and the Sniper and Service matches (ORA) they do not have return fire.

 And the whole point of the thread was when 10 of you lambasted a kid for asking about the Pathfinders and then locked the thread, instead of answering and then locking the thread.

 You must realize by now that you will get the same questions over and over and over again.


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## winchable

Point taken;
The complaint department thanks you.


-stat-


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## Farmboy




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## fleeingjam

Wow it took 48 comments to put a sock in this guys brain...lol good points from both sided..I still say if there hammerin you get up dust youself of..take there advice and move on and dont complain with a 48 comment essay topic.

Peace..Thats what we are peacekeepers.


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## tmbluesbflat

I don‘t know how things compare today, however I qualified for cross rifle and crown every year 1962-1968 that was pretty good at the time. After I left the service. I of course hunted most every year until about 12 years ago, I reloaded, most mid size calibers, my favourite 8x57js best at downing bigger game min of angle accuracy, easy to shoot. I don‘t know how I would do these days, new types of gear different objectives. I prospect ,Geologist etc and carry a 357, scares teddies some. I was in good shape in ‘90 but today, run down I don‘t know but I would bet qualifing today would be some piece of work!


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## tmbluesbflat

Hey! anybody remember the backward forward action on the Fn C1A1, The trigger is depressed.....


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## tmbluesbflat

Slim I‘m not familiar with the glock, but the BHP is easy to get accurate with for people with fairly large hands, first thing to know is that the barrel must be as close to straight in line with the forearm and the wrist straight/flat as much as possible also with the forearm, an old Pistol Team 1PPCLI Cpl showed me that(Al Redman)
back in 63 get the but wedged into the web tightly between the thumb and forefinger, worked for me, and until it got lost in a river crossing I used my BHP for teddie duty for about 15 years, still miss it!


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## Slim

> Originally posted by tmbluesbflat:
> [qb] Slim I‘m not familiar with the glock, but the BHP is easy to get accurate [/qb]


I managed to get a few golds with the BHP but it took alot of practice. After that shooting a Glock 17 is so easy I almost don‘t have to open my eyes...!

Seriously, shooting with the BHP has given me the ability to really learn theory of pistol and marksmanship. I now concentrate on instincive shooting in real-world enviorments and settings rather than accuracy paper punching (which is still fun!). 

Where do you shoot?

Slim


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## tmbluesbflat

I rarely shoot anymore. I carry my .357 Smith in a shoulder rig when prospecting, scares teddies. But instinctive shooting is really what soldiers need to learn. When I was a kid, we lived in the bush(Blue River) and an old mtn man, Angus Horne Taught me to shoot when I was 7/8, with a.22, .22hornet and his ,45/70  the rifle he hunted with his philosophy was that you got it right the first time because mostly there was only one time. I have hunted most of my life and at one time was very proficient with all manner of weapons, from that time on.


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## Slim

Bflat

I wish I could shoot more than I do now. We get to the range through work, now and again, but not nearly enough. The ammo is also creeping up in price!

Slim


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## Ranger

I don‘t udnerstand you people, you‘re all basicly saying the same thing over and over...you‘re point was stated and then restated and so on. It‘s quite ridiculous considering how many people are complaining about all the space being taken up. You‘re all taking up space with the same point being stated over and over.


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## Ranger

ignore my previous reply...i was out of hte room and my brother and sister like to mess around on my computer,
thanks


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## Slim

you have the ability to remove your own posts if you don‘t like what is said.


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## bossi

Oh, no - please don‘t remove what your brother/sister posted - it‘s entirely appropriate!



> I don‘t udnerstand you people, you‘re all basicly saying the same thing over and over...you‘re point was stated and then restated and so on. It‘s quite ridiculous considering how many people are complaining about all the space being taken up. You‘re all taking up space with the same point being stated over and over.


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