# Italian hostage who screamed "Now I‘ll show you how an Italian dies."



## bossi (16 Apr 2004)

Defiant hostage‘s murder on video outrages Italians
By Bruce Johnston in Rome
The Telegraph (Filed: 16/04/2004) 


* The Italian hostage executed in Iraq tried to tear off his hood seconds before he was shot dead and screamed: "Now I‘ll show you how an Italian dies." *

Details of the final moments of Fabrizio Quattrocchi deepened Italy‘s shock and outrage at the hostage crisis as it awaited further news of the three other men seized with him on Monday.


The four Italian hostages were filmed holding their passports 
The Italian foreign minister, Franco Frattini, yesterday hailed as a hero Mr Quattrocchi, 36, a former baker. The killers filmed the murder and Mr Frattini revealed details after Italy‘s ambassador to Qatar was shown the footage by the Arab television station Al-Jazeera, which has not broadcast the video.

"I have been authorised by the [victim‘s] family . . . to reveal the final words of this boy who died what I would call a courageous death, I would say like a hero," Mr Frattini said.

"When his assassins were pointing a gun at him, this boy tried to remove the hood and shouted: ‘Now I‘ll show you how an Italian dies.‘ And they killed him."

Mr Quattrocchi‘s abductors shot him in the neck at close range. Al-Jazeera said that he had been forced to dig his own grave.


Foreign minister Franco Frattini confirmed the news during a TV awards show 
Millions of Italians, including the victim‘s family in Genoa, learned of his death while watching a chat show on Wednesday night.

Relatives of the other hostages were in the audience. They had an agonising wait to discover which man had died after hearing that a hostage had been killed before the programme was aired. Although Mr Frattini was among the programme‘s guests, it was the show‘s host, Bruno Vespa, who made the announcement at midnight. Then Mr Frattini confirmed the grim news of Mr Quattrocchi‘s death.

Francesco Cupertino, the brother of one of the other hostages, asked the foreign minister: "What will happen now?" Mr Frattini replied: "We have to work hard to bring them out." He said Italy would do "what is possible and impossible". But he underlined that it would not negotiate with the kidnappers, who call themselves the Green Brigade of the Prophet.

Mr Quattrocchi was born in Sicily and moved to Genoa with his family. He had become a bodyguard after doing a stint as a nightclub bouncer then signed up to work in Iraq.

He was said to have accepted a job as a security guard working in Iraq for an American company, to earn enough for a home in Italy and to get married.

"Fabrizio was a wonderful man, a man of iron but who had never hurt a fly," his fiancee, Alice, told Italian television yesterday. "He was supposed to come back to me and we were to be married.

"The only consolation is that he died with honour."

But relatives of one of the other hostages, Salvatore Stefio, 34, reacted with despondency and despair. "He may have died a hero but he is still dead," said Mr Stefio‘s younger brother Christian. Mr Stefio‘s wife Emanuala, said: "With the murder of Fabrizio Quattrocchi, part of us has also died."

Mr Stefio‘s father Angelo called on Italians to "take to the streets in order to stop all this". He appealed for the peacekeeping coalition to try to broker an exchange to secure the remaining hostages‘ release.

Al-Jazeera said a statement sent with the video had given a warning that three other Italians who were working for an American company and were kidnapped with Mr Quattrocchi near Fallujah would be killed "one by one".

Most Italian politicians closed ranks around Silvio Berlusconi, the centre-Right prime minister, who has said he will not be bullied into withdrawing 3,000 Italian troops from Iraq. "They have cut short a life," Mr Berlusconi said. "They have not damaged our values and commitment to peace."

However, Mr Quattrocchi‘s family said he might have lived if Mr Berlusconi had not made "rash" comments after the kidnappings.

"Before making declarations of force, the government would have done better to have opened talks with the kidnappers," the family said.

"There is the feeling that the government wanted to make a show of strength by playing with the lives of those [Italians] in Iraq."

Colleagues of Mr Quattrocchi said he had been captured while accompanying a group of clients on the road to Amman in Jordan.

- 30 -



> "Officers like myself are sustained by the realisation that they cannot show fear ... I define courage as the overcoming of fear, not the absence of fear. A man who knows no fear cannot be courageous - he has nothing to be courageous about."  p.211.
> 
> "An officer who does not understand the value of this period of mourning runs the risk of losing the respect of his soldiers.  A soldier imagines his own death when a friend is killed and sees how an officer responds, should he one day be so unlucky.  Officers should take care here." p. 214.
> 
> ...


RIP


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## Tpr.Orange (16 Apr 2004)

Disgusting... I hope they find these kidnappers and hang them in the streets


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## girlfiredup (16 Apr 2004)

Sad.     Hopefully he didn‘t feel any pain but then again, a bullet in the neck wouldn‘t kill you instantly, would it?  Anyway, never a good thing to lose a fellow paisano.  I hope he had the opportunity to kick his abductors in the nads at some point during captivity.  RIP.


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## Northern Touch (16 Apr 2004)

RIP


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 Apr 2004)

If I was the Italian PM I‘d be hard pressed not to send every available troop into Iraq and rachet up the pain.


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## Pikache (16 Apr 2004)

RIP


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## 1feral1 (16 Apr 2004)

They are just pigs! Or worse than that! At least the bloke murdered got a few defiant words out before they blasted him.

I would imagine the neck shot was for theh blood effect solely for the video, and lets hope his spine was taken out and he died instantly.

As for the killers, for me, its fuel to the fire. Bring on more troops and teach these savages (face it, they are worse than savages)some tolorence.

I am suprised the Al-Jaz did not air it,a s I consider them tools and propagandaists of the other side in a Himmler sence of proportion.

Al-Jez should be sent packing, and shut down. Just go have a squizz at their english web site. Its a one sided organisation, and fanes the flames for the EN.

We dont see them getting kidnapped or murdered do we.

Regrards,

Wes

Time to play some serious hard ball!


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## Scoobie Newbie (16 Apr 2004)

Al-Jez is an outlet for the Arabs and is biased as such as is CNN for the Americans. If you shut them down then you tell the Mid East the Free Speech will be taken away if you don‘t say what we want you to say.


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## 1feral1 (16 Apr 2004)

I dont think CNN is biased as here its CNNI and they have regional reporters. Its not based out of Atlanta.

I dont think its ME free speech, its  right wing reporting, supporting the EN, and its one way. Take a few mins to see what they are saying.

BBC, CNNI and FOX give it how it is ( although FOX can be a little too much at times. Australia‘s SBS, ABC, 7, 9 and 10 are also giving a middle of the fence approach.

I say plul the plug on Al-Jez! Quicksmart.

Cheers,

Wes


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## nULL (16 Apr 2004)

ppht, they should pull Aussie nine first - weren‘t they the ones running waterrats? Yeach!


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## Jason Bourne (16 Apr 2004)

sometimes i wonder why they don‘t carpet bomb Iraq back into the Stone Age and make a new country...sheesh...


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## Michael Dorosh (16 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Jason Bourne:
> [qb] sometimes i wonder why they don‘t carpet bomb Iraq back into the Stone Age and make a new country...sheesh... [/qb]


Because of the millions of innocent human beings living there you f___ing retard.

Do us a favour and remove the Queen‘s crown from your avatar until you can say something that wouldn‘t be an embarrassment to Her Majesty.  

The Italian who was murdered was a brave man indeed, and certainly dispels a lot of myths about Italian bravery.  It seems surreal to me that only 61 years ago we were at war with them.  It goes to show you how fast things change.

In 61 years, perhaps Iraq will be re-established among the community of nations, just as Fascist Italy has been.  

Oh, wait, let‘s just carpet bomb them anyway.  That will really show the world, and posterity, who was morally superior.

As for hanging the culprits in the street - I rather thought our way was better - and we discuss this every time something new is posted on the board.  Enemy atrocities show the world what kind of people we are fighting.  Great.  Our job - the so called "civilized" western world‘s job - is to instill values like freedom and justice.  Which means finding the perpetrators, then trying them fairly.

And if need be, then executing them.

Check out the trials held in the "Great Escape" murders.  When 70+ prisoners escaped Stalag Luft III in 1944, all but three were recaptured, and 50 were murdered in cold blood.

Guess what?  After the war, all the perpetrators - those who didn‘t die in the war - were tracked down, tried fairly, and dealt with by our civilized justice system.

I would have thought it obvious that what sets us apart from the "savages" as Wes calls them is our ability to deal dispassionately yet effectively with these issues.


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## girlfiredup (17 Apr 2004)

It will be interesting to see what happens after June 30th.


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## Jarnhamar (17 Apr 2004)

Maybe jason can make the new country. Use some type of SIMS spin off. Like SIMANT or SIMCITY.
SIMCOUNTRY.
its workable.


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## Jason Bourne (17 Apr 2004)

oops sorry for expressing an opinion...clearly an unrealistic opinion at that too. Way to over react.


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## Jason Bourne (17 Apr 2004)

And Simcity kicks ***


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## Jarnhamar (17 Apr 2004)

Dont worry. When countries are at war with people dying every day in ambushes and civilians getting kidnaped and killed on camera people get all weak in the stomach and take offense to comments about mass murder.
They need to play more games   
Speaking of which, Every play FLIGHT SIMULATOR, Mr Jason Borne. if that IS your real name...


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## 1feral1 (17 Apr 2004)

Hey Mick, I reckon he is thinking purly from frustration. 

Personally I believe 1000 yrs from now the region will still be as violent then as it is now, but then imagine the technology then too.

Besides, rumours say there might be 100 yrs left of crude oil in the region, and if thats the case they‘ll be begging the west for assistance then. As without oil, they will have donkeys pissing in the streets, hey wait they still have that now!

Have you ever critisied the RCAF and RAF for indendiary bombing Dresden and carpet bombing other European cities less than 60 SHORT yrs ago?

Whats your 2c worth on that. Mine are, it won the war didnt it! Frankly my life, and the lives of my friends are worth more than 10,000,000 of theirs! 

As for calling the ‘sub-human trash‘ that mutilated and hung charred human remains savages, I take that back, how about godless savages. What would you call them? Freedom fighters?

Regards,

Wes


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## Jason Bourne (17 Apr 2004)

Haha..nah its not..I just read too much Robert Ludlum books. I wish it was..   And yeah I‘m a flight sim freak, I‘ve every thing from Janes Combat Simulations hardcore stuff to Microsoft Flight Sim all the way to 2003...uber nerd


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## Slim (17 Apr 2004)

The criminals in the middle east must be shown that they will NOT profit by the use of violence, kidnappings and execution of hostages.

It really is that simple. They view our society as both morally and ethically weak.They believe we will not hold together if they grab a few of us and turn the lights out, one by one.

This is the time when we need to be strong, redouble our efforts and bring the CRIMINALS to justice.

Fabrizio Quattrocchi, 

It takes an impossibly brave man to do what you did. Rest in peace.   

Slim


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## Garry (17 Apr 2004)

Mr Quattrocchi showed a lot of spine- good on him.

I hope it gives his family some comfort, and his countrymen a cause.

We all have some lessons to learn. One of those is that making war may be easier than making peace. Another is that no matter how noble your intentions, an occupying force is just that.

As for the mutilation of the bodies- we dropped the ball big time on that. The (average)Iraqi‘s themselves were disgusted by the actions of those that dragged the bodies around- had we asked, I‘d bet my bottom dollar that we‘d have been told who did it, and where they lived. Instead, we attacked everyone.

The Iraqis aren‘t animals. They have a very strict code of conduct that may be strange to our way of thinking, but perfectly normal for them. They are a society that understands and accepts revenge, and while everyone in the area would have understood, and accepted, the killing of these men, most would have been horrified by the "display" of their remains.

We (as a coallition) NEED to understand the minds of the Iraqis.

PS- wholesale slaughter may have it‘s place in an all out war, but is kind of at odds when you‘re "liberating" an oppressed people.


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## Infanteer (19 Apr 2004)

> Because of the millions of innocent human beings living there you f___ing retard.


Sir Arthur Harris appreciates the fact that you think he is a retard.


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## Marauder (20 Apr 2004)

Everytime the States underreactes to something such as the immolation and desecration of those contractors, they just encourage more of it. These freaks don‘t understand any language other than violence and fear. If the local military command was serious, they would have cordoned the city and then called in Arclight after Arclight after Arclight. A message needed to be sent, and instead the Marines had to insert among a hostile populace who supported, aided, and abbetted the Saddam regime back in the day. The ***** token reaction sent the wrong message, and got good Marines killed to little effect.

Once you get the populace by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.

But then I think if Dubya was smart, he would have just level the shithole of a country, called a Carthaginian peace, and told those other insane freaks in the MidEast that that was the fate awaiting any other nation that stepped out of line.


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## Pikache (20 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by Infanteer:
> [qb]
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, somebody did do a study on effect of Allied bombing campaign on German war effort and his conclusion was that it didn‘t have much effect at all until mid 1944 or something.

I can‘t remember the name of the book, for the life of me. It was about Luftwaffe though. *shrug*


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## Infanteer (20 Apr 2004)

Your right RHF, that is the generally accepted fact...doesn‘t take away from the fact that all sides considered carpet bombing relevant.

Morality is in the eye of the beholder.

Carthaginian peace, I like it.

_Fallujah Delenda Est_


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## xFusilier (20 Apr 2004)

As Nietzche once said:

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster

Pretty hard to claim to have the moral high ground when you are willing to kill thousands of innocents to avenge the death of less than a hundered.


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## stukirkpatrick (20 Apr 2004)

> As Nietzche once said:
> 
> He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster
> 
> Pretty hard to claim to have the moral high ground when you are willing to kill thousands of innocents to avenge the death of less than a hundered.


It was always ironic how Nietzche made so many philosophical comments like that, and nonetheless unintentionally became the favourite of Hitler...


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## wongskc (20 Apr 2004)

Carpet bombing was an accepted fact of the World War II era, but that was a total war between two European powers.  It was a fight to the finish, with every last man and dollar put into it.  You cannot say that Iraq is the same situation.  Simply calling an air strike or artillery bombardment on a neighbourhood where there are a bunch of snipers or insurgents is not going to supress resistance.  It will do the opposite, especially where innocents lose their homes and families.


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## stukirkpatrick (20 Apr 2004)

There was carpet bombing in Vietnam too, wasn‘t there?  And I think that most of the bombing of Hanoi was more for psychological reasons than infrastructure - it wouldn‘t stop the Vietcong.  

It was also political pressure that restrained the American military in S Asia too.


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## Pikache (20 Apr 2004)

Isn‘t the Coalition in Iraq to help out the Iraqis, not blow them up into little pieces?

Not going to make many friends blowing Iraqis into pieces and have their relatives and the neighbourhood up against you.


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## 1feral1 (20 Apr 2004)

By calling a fire mission on a tgt will ENSURE that the tgt in question will be destroyed along with the EN inside, and thus suppress the ‘baddies‘ inside, and saving more Allied lives, allowing them to fight on.

Remember, we take the fight to the EN regardless!So we wont be fighting the EN on our own streets.

Innocents are always casualties of any war, ever. Sadly its the truth, but more than often in this new war, the EN are in civvy clothes, and by the time casualty figures are counted, the EN have stripped thier corpses of wpns, and kit, and when Al-Jazerra gets hold of it, they suddenly apprear to be civvy casualties. 

We also know the EN occupy houses using the innocents as human shields too. Thats weak, but thats how the new EN fight. Its worse than dirty.

Remember its only a small minority who are stirring the pot. Mainstream Iraqis do not want a radical Islamic state, nor the Sunni Saddam lovers either. 

So, in short the EN must be killed, and that means by fighting. Also remember they value death as much as we value life, and therefore its the corkscrew and blowtorch method all over again.

The only way to do this is with firepower. No other way.

Regards,

Wes


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Apr 2004)

Carpet bombing was an effective form back in the day because we didn‘t have the technology for smart bombs.  One bomb, one target reduces the civilian casualties as well as the pilots that drop the bomb instead of revisiting a target that has been missed in a carpet bomb and possibly take more damage.


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## portcullisguy (20 Apr 2004)

Perhaps a very high wall should be built around the troubled areas of Iraq, say about 50 or 60 feet.  Give them their peace, withdraw the coalition troops, seal them from the outside "evil" world with its "satanic" influences...


... and then fill them to the top with water!


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## combat_medic (20 Apr 2004)

OK people, could we propose a solution that DOESN‘T involve mass genocide? Other than shooting, bombing and drowning the entire population of the Middle East, does anyone have a viable solution to this problem?


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## kiltedtradesman (20 Apr 2004)

:evil:    :evil:    :evil:    :skull:   NO!!!   :skull:   :evil:    :evil:    :evil:  

Now let the boys vent.


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## Scoobie Newbie (20 Apr 2004)

Reduce dependence on foriegn oil (oil in general).
Pull back from Isreal.


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## Gunnar (21 Apr 2004)

Israel is a perfect example of everything the terrorists hate.  A modern, civilized democracy in exactly the same land area that has had nothing but despots and terrorists in it for years.  Not only does it make them look like little people they are, it shows them up daily.  No wonder they‘re annoyed at Israel.

Nope.  More support for Israel is the only moral thing to do here.  Appeasing a terrorist never works.  Time to show him that we don‘t run from conflict.


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## 1feral1 (21 Apr 2004)

Try www.islamicsydney.com and www.islam.org.au and take a look at the forums and the anti Israel propaganda (Boycott Israel). Almost like something out of the past say 70yrs ago in Nazi Germany.

Regards,

Wes


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## Scoobie Newbie (21 Apr 2004)

I never said appease the terrorists.  I think if the rest of the world cut out a piece of Austrailia and gave it to another nation then, the citizens of Australia might have a problem with it.


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## 1feral1 (21 Apr 2004)

CFL: 

Just what are you saying? Why are you bringing the Commonwealth of Australia into the fray?

I dont really understand where you are coming from, and what you are trying to get accross.

Personally, I reckon that both Israel and Palestine are as bad as one another, with their ‘tit for tat‘ violence.

So, what are you saying?

Ack.

Out

Wes


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## Gunnar (21 Apr 2004)

But then, Australia doesn‘t have the same history as Israel, does it?  Israel pushed for independence from Palestine, couldn‘t get it.  The Brits gave them "partition", which the Palestinians refused to accept.  They tried, on numerous occasions, to drive the Jews into the sea.  They lost.  They lost so bad they had to move to Jordan or to refugee camps.  Now, instead of getting over it, they spend most of their time in UN shelters trying to continue the war by other means.  They talk about peace, and peace agreements, while funding the purchase of weapons instead of trying to build their economy and get their own people working.

Did you see the Germans living in refugee camps for 30 years after WWII, vainly trying to push their claims to the Sudetenland, or Danzig which was "taken" from them by the Allies?  No.  They moved back into their houses or into new ones, and tried to make do with the new political situation.  They did not try to win back their wonderful Reich by blowing up schoolchildren and by appealing to the UN "but we have nowhere to live!".  Today, Germany is a reunfied economic powerhouse.  For the Palestinians, it‘s been 30-40 years.  If NOW you have no place to live, its because of CHOICE, not because the Israelis keep driving you out.  The Palestinians chose Yasser Arafat and his Fatah party, in spite of the fact that they are regularly busted by Shin Bet for importing arms and weapons, do not have any respect for individual rights, and are merely a gang of thugs with more followers than Hamas at present....  These "temporary refugee camps" are widely known to be places where Palestinians make bombs and suicide bombers.

Are all Palestinians like this?  No.  I am sure that because every man has individual choice that there exist some people out there who, while brought up in an environment of hatred and intolerance choose to leave the so-called "refugee" camps and get on with their lives.  But because they‘re successful and happy, they don‘t make headlines.  Because they don‘t ask for handouts, or the intercession of foreign nations in their own squabbles, they don‘t make the news.

Life pays you back with success.  If you make good choices, you live well.  The Israelis, in spite of the weekly annoyance of some barbarian blowing himself up, live well.  Electricity, television, clean running water, one of the finest armed forces in the world.  The Palestinians are still living in squalor, off of UN handouts and negotiating in bad faith, hoping for the day when someone will hand them back their country.  Ain‘t gonna happen.  You can‘t beat a modern, civilized democracy with 12th century values.  You can be annoying, but that‘s about it.

Trying to censure Israel or to deny its right to exist IS catering to terrorists, because it suggests that they may be right.  They aren‘t.


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## DogOfWar (21 Apr 2004)

Pull back from Israel? Why? You would throw your hat in with terrorists? Leave the Israelis to the wolves because you feel like giving up allies? Because their freedom and way of life is worth less than your own? The world is at war. Our way of life is under fire and you would give up ground.


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## casing (21 Apr 2004)

I‘m in complete agreement with Gunnar on this one. In my mind I admire Israel because of the crap they go through.  They don‘t put up with much. For the most part, if they need something done they do it and to h*ll with what the rest of the world thinks.  Israel does things for their own survival.  They are surrounded by peoples that hate them mainly for religious reasons. These peoples do things not for their own survival, but to destroy Israel for being Jewish and for advancing their standard of living despite their enemies.


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## Infanteer (22 Apr 2004)

Pull back from Israel...never.

Why would we leave a free and democratic nation in a sea of hatred and despotism?

For some reason the western media, the U.N., and many segements of our society have gained a real hard on for Israel in the last while.  It bugs me to no end when Israel is condemned for killing terrorists (by our Foreign Affairs Minister), and yet the solution is to "negotiate" with organizations that continue to claim that they will destroy the Jewish state.  Why worry about "retaliation" from an organization that wants to push the Jews into the sea?  Would we negotiate with Nazi‘s who had the same aims?

Canada should grow a set of balls and jump off the fence.  I applaud Bush for his decision to side with the Israelis in the claims of land.  Why are Palestinian‘s refugees?  

Because they willingly left in 1948 under the belief that Israel would be destroyed.

Tough luck.

And take a look at the land that they claim as a Palestinian state.  Land that belonged to Egypt and Jordan before Israel took it from then in another attempt to push a people into the sea.

The world needs to open its eyes.  The Arab states have used the Palestinian‘s as their kicking toys to swipe at Israel.  Arab states have killed more Palestinians in booting them out of their camps in Jordan and Syria in an effort to send a dissaffected people back into Israel.

The peace movement blames everything on the Zionists.  These idiots are so eager to find a cause that they‘ve turned themselves into anti-Semites in their support for Palestine.  Don‘t believe me, check it out  here.

Arab states, for the most part backwards due to repressive dictators or mullahs (or a combination of both) are failing domestically.  In order to deflect problems, the leaders constantly cite Israel as the root for every problem in the Middle East on the Jews.  And for the most part, people by this.  A significant proportion of Arabs believe the September 11 attacks was a Jewish plot to bring America against Islam.

So, next time the UN Security Council condemns Israel for defending itself, or some media outlet jumps on the bandwagon of pointing out Jewish "atrocites" against "rock-throwing kids", ask yourself if you buy that.  There is a clear case of good and evil here, and by sitting on the fence like we are, not only do we give tacit support to a cause that publically states its goal is to destroy a people‘s right to exist, but we send the Israelis a message that they are on their own.  That is something I won‘t stand for.


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## xFusilier (22 Apr 2004)

Perhaps the reason that Israel gets held to a higher standard is the fact that it is a free and democratic nation, and free and democratic nations are expected to have higher moral standards than tinpot dictators.

There will be no peace in Israel until the Likud party realizes that terrorism is a political phenomena that needs a political solution.  The Israelis can try to drop a hellfire on every terrorist in the West Bank and they will fail, new terrorists will always sprout up because the reasons that individuals turn to these acts still exists. (joblessness, poverty, lack of basic freedoms (some of which is the fault of the PLO, others are the fault of the Israelis). general hoplessness).  Solve these problems and you solve alot of the reason for the sucess of terrorism in the West Bank.


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## Infanteer (22 Apr 2004)

> Perhaps the reason that Israel gets held to a higher standard is the fact that it is a free and democratic nation, and free and democratic nations are expected to have higher moral standards than tinpot dictators.


Easy to say sitting in a free and democratic nation not subjected to daily attacks on the populace.

I never said they get held to a higher standard.  I was expressing concern for the fact that media outlets and politicians tend to hold dropping a hellfire on a terrorist who plans suicide attacks on innocent civilians as morally equivlent to blowing up a bus full of sunday shoppers with their children (ie, that they are both wrong).



> There will be no peace in Israel until the Likud party realizes that terrorism is a political phenomena that needs a political solution.


Is that necessary?  Any person in Israel is accorded full rights, included freedom of worship (unlike any of its neighbours).

I agree with you that Radical zionism within Israel is also a barrier to movement towards peace, but not to the degree of the violence committed by Palestinian terrorists.  

What are the political solutions when one side is calling for the destruction of the Jewish state?

Like I said, there is a clear case of good and bad here.



> new terrorists will always sprout up because the reasons that individuals turn to these acts still exists. (joblessness, poverty, lack of basic freedoms (some of which is the fault of the PLO, others are the fault of the Israelis). general hoplessness). Solve these problems and you solve alot of the reason for the sucess of terrorism in the West Bank.


Despite the fact that the PLO takes a substantial chunk of foreign aid, its people still live in squalor.  This gets blamed on the people of Israel.  Just like the Al Qaeda, the head guys of all these organizations are fat cats who have no problem sending some dumb sod out with a dynamite belt in order to further their own ends.  So many people buy into what these people tell them.

I think dropping a hellfire on Arafat is the next step into eliminating the terrorist threats in the West Bank.


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## xFusilier (22 Apr 2004)

> never said they get held to a higher standard. I was expressing concern for the fact that media outlets and politicians tend to hold dropping a hellfire on a terrorist who plans suicide attacks on innocent civilians as morally equivlent to blowing up a bus full of sunday shoppers with their children (ie, that they are both wrong).


The reason that the Isrealis get raked over the coals for it, is that the policy of targeted killings runs contrary to international law.  Furthermore,  if an Israeli helicopter fires a hellfire missle and kills 1 terrorist and 25 innocents, are they not as dead as the 25 Israelis killed in the last bus bombing?  It is the Israelis justification of what appears to be any amount of collateral damage with the old line "we are fighting terror" that leads the media to question the claim that the Israelis hold on being the guys in the white hats.



> Is that necessary? Any person in Israel is accorded full rights, included freedom of worship (unlike any of its neighbours).


I am not talking about Israeli Arabs and Druze, I am talking about the Palestinians who live in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, they aren‘t going anywhere.  The only way to fight Hamas and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is to eliminate the contiditions that allow them to recruit, and that means eliminating the hopelessness that is present on the streets.  Especially in the case of Hamas, as I believe that Hamas has ceased to be just an organization and is now an ideology.



> What are the political solutions when one side is calling for the destruction of the Jewish state?


I see this as pretty much a strawman argument.  Israel exists, and will always exists.  And lets not get idealistic there will still be terrorist attacks after a peace agreement is signed.  



> Despite the fact that the PLO takes a substantial chunk of foreign aid, its people still live in squalor. This gets blamed on the people of Israel.


Maybe, put Israel does have to take a certain amount of responsibility for the fact that these people require foriegn aid.

Besides there will be not peace in the Middle East until both Sharon and Arafat are gone, they are to much like each other.


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## casing (22 Apr 2004)

> Originally posted by xFusilier:
> [qb]Israel exists, and will always exists.[/qb]


This really isn‘t something that is certain.  Especially when the opposite of this is an ultimate goal of Israel‘s enemies. And that‘s a big root of the problem. Even if the Arabs managed to eventually become masters over the Israelis they will not be appeased. They will do what they can to eliminate all Israelis and once that is accomplished their sights will turn to the other heathens--mainly democratic and non-Arab nations.  The only reason Arafat‘s minions aren‘t sending the suicide bombers against western nations is because Israel is right there in the front yard and is first on the agenda.  

As far as I‘m concerned, Israel is in for an eternity of the same battles.  Israel has been attacked before and won. If Israel‘s neighbours thought they had any chance at all of wiping out Israel now you can bet they would attack again.  Especially with Israel‘s friends busy in Iraq.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Apr 2004)

Both sides are out to lunch.
One side sends in a bomber to kill himself at a market, the other side launches a cruise missle into a leaders house. A leader who surrounds himself with innocent (well some anyways) civilians.

The only way to stop the violence there is to send in an armed force and take away the weapons and bombs from both sides.  This of course will make both sides resist the force thats disarming them. It‘s a big catch 22.


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## Infanteer (22 Apr 2004)

> leader who surrounds himself with innocent (well some anyways) civilians.


The recent attack on Rantisi only killed him and his two bodyguards.  Zero collateral damage.  If I recall correctly, the Yassin strike took out his entourage, again zero collateral damage.

How can these be considered "illegal targeted killings" when it is a state of open war?  It would be no different than the Americans dropping a laser guided bomb on Osama bin Laden, or better yet, using a Predator drone to hit a terrorist car with a hellfire (which we generally regard to be a good thing).

I have the suspicion that the only reason some people differentiate between American anti-terrorism and Israeli anti-terrorism is because they are closet anti-semites or something (not saying anyone here is, talking about more general organizations).




> The only way to stop the violence there is to send in an armed force and take away the weapons and bombs from both sides. This of course will make both sides resist the force thats disarming them. It‘s a big catch 22.


Since that solution is totally ludacris I will not even attempt to deal with it.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Apr 2004)

If they only took out the intended target then i don‘t have an argument. I thought i saw in the news that the missle strikes from israel were taking out civilians just as well as their targets.

I never said it was illegal, just that i don‘t really see either side as being good or bad. To me their both so engrossed in the war that neither side is really interested in peace. They don‘t want to settle, both sides want to "win". It‘s almost like it‘s how they define who they are.

The solution i mentioned is totally ludacris but to me that seems the only way you could actually have peace there. They won‘t play nice so take their toys away. 
Then again if that did happen and we gave them hammers and nails to rebuild their homes i‘m sure  it wouldn‘t be long before they turned the humanatitarian aid on each other.


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## 48Highlander (22 Apr 2004)

The problem isn‘t that both sides want to "win".  The problem is that the Palestinian resistance is composed mainly of terrorists who don‘t take orders from their government, and the Israelis aren‘t willing to put down their weapons as long as the suicide bombings continue.  If Israel were willing to cease their own military activities and instead work to rebuild the Palestinian infrastructure and assist Palestinian authorities with hunting down terrorist cells, the problem would be drasticaly reduced within a few years, and eventualy eliminated.  However, Israel, is afraid that ceasing military reprisals for bombings would be seen as weakness, and would lead to increased activity by their enemy.  I think the only practical solution to their problems would be UN intervention, but I don‘t see that happening any time soon.


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## casing (22 Apr 2004)

You seriously believe the suicide bombings will end if the Israelis put down their weapons?  Well, perhaps you are right.  At that stage in the game all the Palestinians would have to do is round em up and walk em into the ocean.  No bombs needed to drown people.


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## 48Highlander (22 Apr 2004)

"put down their weapons" is a figure of speech.  I‘m not saying they should disarm, just stop making unilateral strikes within Palestinian territory.  Like I said, rebuild the Palestinian infrastructure and then work WITH them to root out terorist cells.  There will always be militant fanatics who will not accept anything but the outright destruction of Israel, but just like in Iraq and Afghanistan, there are honest people who are willing to cooperate in order to rebuild their country and secure peace and freedom for themselves and their people.  Israel‘s current policy only serves to alienate those people.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Apr 2004)

What about that wall? Are they still trying to throw that up? One stays on one side one onthe other. That might be a pretty good short term solution, no?


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