# Ombudsman's Probe into Canadian Forces Recruiting and Training Backlog.



## Kirkhill (29 Sep 2004)

This is the only on-line version of this article I could find.  A longer version in the National Post and the Vancouver Sun detailed the number of complaints Morin has received from bodies cooling their heals waiting to be processed and waiting to be trained, as well as referring to the numbers that have just got fed-up and left.





> Wed, September 29, 2004
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http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/News/2004/09/29/pf-647837.html


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## Michael OLeary (29 Sep 2004)

This should be interesting to follow. I do hope they spend some time interviewing potential recruits who have been waiting on the process. Perhaps they should start with a few of the dicussion threads here to increase their situational awareness before they start with the Recruiting Group.


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## McG (29 Sep 2004)

Good.   Maybe something will get fixed.


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## JasonH (29 Sep 2004)

Military Ombudsman André Marin announced an investigation Wednesday into the Canadian Forces' recruiting practices.

The recruitment practices of the Canadian Forces will be subject to a "systemic investigation" Canada's military Ombudsman announced Wednesday.

André Marin made the announcement Wednesday as he tabled his 2003-2004 annual report in Ottawa, citing complaints of discrimination and a recent pledge by Prime Minister Paul Martin to increase the size of the Canadian Forces. 

â Å“For the last few years, we have accumulated hundreds of complaints dealing with applicants to the Canadian Forces who have told us that they have been discriminated against during the application process," Mr. Marin said. 

"We have heard tales of how the system is ill equipped to handle the current influx of candidates. All of this is happening while the government has announced plans to augment the forces by 8,000 soldiers."

Chief of Defence Staff General Ray Henault said in August that the number of people in uniform will go up by 5,000 over the next several years, bringing total strength of the regular forces to 65,000.

Most of the increase will be in the army, the service branch that has been the busiest with overseas operations during the past decade. The plan also calls for an increase in the army reserves, boosting those numbers to 18,500 from the current 15,500

According to the report, in 2003-2004 the Ombudsman's Office received 1265 new cases, raising 1672 complaints. The top five categories of complaints dealt with benefit entitlements, release issues, medical issues, recruitment and harassment.

Mr. Marin's report criticizes the chain of command in the Canadian Forces, saying some of his reports have been met with a "defensiveness and an unwillingness to evaluate our criticisms with objectivity and introspection."

"The entire point in having an Ombudsman is to increase openness and transparency, and to identify and deal with problems that affect the welfare of CF members," Mr. Marin writes. "If the morale of the lower-ranking soldiers is suffering because of ongoing problems, I cannot ignore this for fear that my reports or comments will affect the morale of the senior members of the chain of command."


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## Pieman (29 Sep 2004)

I really hope they manage to change things for the better. A couple sentences interested me here:



> For the last few years, we have accumulated hundreds of complaints dealing with applicants to the Canadian Forces who have told us that they have been discriminated against during the application process


The system is slow, cumbersome, and   inefficient. I can   imagine that the complaints about the medical system are valid. But is the system discriminatory? I have never noticed anyone post anything on here that would fall into the discrimination category.



> Mr. Marin's report criticizes the chain of command in the Canadian Forces, saying some of his reports have been met with a "defensiveness and an unwillingness to evaluate our criticisms with objectivity and introspection



Wonder how much truth there is to that statement.


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## GINge! (29 Sep 2004)

1200 complaints out of 50000 soldiers are being handled by the budman? What is that like 1 in 30 CF members have a complaint that can't be resolved by the chain? Or does the budman deal with VAC as well?


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## Blindspot (29 Sep 2004)

Military ombudsman plans to investigate problems in recruiting system

Canada - Canadian Press 


JOHN WARD 

OTTAWA (CP) - With the government planning a major expansion of the Canadian Forces, the military ombudsman is to investigate the recruiting system, which he says is having problems. 

   

In the June election campaign, Prime Minister Paul Martin promised to add 5,000 regular soldiers and 3,000 reservists to the ranks, but ombudsman Andre Marin said the recruiting system is ill-equipped to handle that influx. "How can the military absorb such an increase in personnel when it is only meeting its recruiting targets in the last year by the skin of its teeth?" 


He said his office has received 570 complaints about recruitment over the past five years and he's opening a nine-month investigation of the whole system. 


"The complaints deal with incredible delays," he said. 


Some would-be soldiers wait for up to a year while the bureaucratic wheels grind. Many become discouraged and abandon their efforts to join. 


"They can't wait a year, they want a job now." 


Marin said part of the problem stems from overly strict interpretation of the rules. 


"We should be throwing the doors open." 


Some say the recruiting problems are caused, in part at least, by budget problems. Senior soldiers who should be training the recruits can't because they are serving on overseas missions. 


Marin said he can't prejudge his investigation. 


The Canadian Forces is authorized to have 60,000 uniformed people, but has only 52,000-54,000 trained troops in its ranks. 


Marin said he thinks the military can add the new numbers, but only if it is more flexible with the rules. 


"You want to be an employer of choice," he said. 


Gordon O'Connor, the Conservative defence critic, said a review of the recruiting system is overdue. 


"I get e-mails and letters from all across Canada from people who have difficulties with the Defence Department," he said. 


"One of the common trends is recruiting, whether it's regular or reserves. 


"It's as if the system was set up not to accept anybody at the other end." 

He said the proposed increase in manpower will pose major problems. 

"I hope they straighten out the recruiting system so they can actually process them." 

Marin also issued his annual report Wednesday, saying that even after five years, his office still gets the cold shoulder from senior brass at times. 

Some of his reports have raised the hackles of top officers, who sometimes see him as making the military look bad. 

One report last year, which chided the Forces for clawing back per diem allowances given to soldiers at a training course, seemed to provoke an angry response and briefly chilled relations between the brass and the ombudsman. 

The soldiers complained that losing the money caused financial hardship, but couldn't get the money back until Marin issued his public report. The military responded almost overnight. 

The chill that report caused seems to have thawed, he said. He praised Gen. Ray Henault, the chief of the defence staff, for encouraging co-operation. 

Marin's office handled more than 1,200 complaints last year and settled more than 1,100. 

His report also returned to a perennial complaint; that his mandate isn't entrenched in legislation. His legitimacy comes not from Parliament, but from an order of the chief of the defence staff, something Marin called an anomaly.


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## Michael Dorosh (29 Sep 2004)

GINge! said:
			
		

> 1200 complaints out of 50000 soldiers are being handled by the budman? What is that like 1 in 30 CF members have a complaint that can't be resolved by the chain? Or does the budman deal with VAC as well?



Most of the complainants are probably not members of the CF.  I wonder how many people are being turned away for valid reasons and then raising complaints by invoking the spectre of racism.  Let's hope the investigation gets to the bottom of it quickly.


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## Jarnhamar (29 Sep 2004)

"1200 complaints out of 50000 soldiers"  

Thats just the people who bother to complain.
What about the people who get fed up and just forget about it OR the people who just keep putting up with the shit crossing their fingers and hoping for the best. 

I bet one person complains out of every 10 or 20 who get screwed around.

If our recruiting wasn't so messed up the PM wouldn't have to promise to add 5000 new soldiers, we'd already have them.


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## Cloud Cover (29 Sep 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Most of the complainants are probably not members of the CF.   I wonder how many people are being turned away for valid reasons and then raising complaints by invoking the spectre of racism.   Let's hope the investigation gets to the bottom of it quickly.



I agree with you Mike, but I am wondering if the complaints aren't grounded in a bit of reverse discrimination on the basis of race or gender. I'm not trying to provoke a fight with anybody, but are there any stats or policies that could be held as evidence that women or visible/religious/language minorities are recieving preferential treatment in the recruiting process. I am asking this, because the CHRC mandates this sort of policy in other federal government departments, but I am not sure about the CF.


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## JBP (29 Sep 2004)

To be honest, I cannot remember exactly where because I was visiting two sites at the time, but there is about 2,500 females in the Canadian Forces... On paper that is, I seen that stat on here or on the DND website...

Not very high obviously...


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## onecat (29 Sep 2004)

Well from what I've heard the CF's for have a regional quota system set up.  30 or 40% are set a side for the mari-time provinces, so if that's true then there is discrimination.  Might be great if live out east, but if come Ontario or Alberta where they lower quotas it just adds to your wait time to get in.


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## Pieman (30 Sep 2004)

> Most of the complainants are probably not members of the CF.   I wonder how many people are being turned away for valid reasons and then raising complaints by invoking the spectre of racism.   Let's hope the investigation gets to the bottom of it quickly.



I checked the statistics on the Ombudsman websight. The vast majority of complaints are coming from CF members with 648 complaints. These complaints appear to be with regards to benefits, release, and medical issues.   

I notice something bizarre, Complaints from applicants to the CF total 51, yet the total number of complaints about the recruiting process total 134. I can only assume that the rest of the complaints about recruiting are coming from former members of the CF who are trying to get back into the CF, I can't think of who else would be doing it. (Former members of the CF logged 230 complaints in total)

Stats can be found here: http://www.ombudsman.forces.gc.ca/reports/annual/2003-2004ap_e.asp#1

I was fortunate enough to catch the press release and interview on tv, the CAPC channel. One of the reporters asked the Ombudsman directly if any of the discrimination complaints were the result of racism. He replied that it was certainly a possibility, but that he did not believe there were complaints like that. He noted that because the investigation is just starting, it is possible that anything could surface. 

He also said that he did not like the way things were being handled in the recruiting process because a lack of flexibility with regards to the rules were being shown. He said: 'Here is a rule, but use common sense with respect to that rule.' The Ombudsman seems very sincere and down to earth, I have a lot of hope that things are going to get fixed.

For any of your who are in the recruiting process and reading this, and are unhappy with the way things are going, this is the time to write the Ombudsman. I don't think you have to launch an official complaint, unless you feel your situation is serious,  but it is not going to hurt to relate your situation to him. I am going to write him an email and tell him how my application is going...or rather not going anywhere at all. This kind of information may help his investigation.


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## jfladeroute (30 Sep 2004)

Pieman said:
			
		

> I notice something bizarre, Complaints from applicants to the CF total 51, yet the total number of complaints about the recruiting process total 134. I can only assume that the rest of the complaints about recruiting are coming from former members of the CF who are trying to get back into the CF, I can't think of who else would be doing it. (Former members of the CF logged 230 complaints in total)



That makes a great deal of sense, actually. The entire concept of the sup reserve has failed badly, both as a pool of trained soldiers and as an "easy" way for bringing people back on strength. It's faster and easier to recruit someone new than to try to bring someone back - while both instances hit the backlogs created by centralization of the medical certification, returning members also have to go through the horrendous process known as the "verification of former service". I know that when I returned off the sup reserve, my file was ready to go within eight weeks - except for the vfs.

That took another _year_. And, even then, in the end no one could find my files. Thanks to corporate memory, I was granted all my previous qualifications, but everything was freshly input into the system with a date of 1 Apr 99. Looking at my pers file, I was enrolled on that date, passed every course on that date, got promoted three times on that date, etc. Boy, was I tired.  ;D

I haven't bothered to check on my retirement gratuity, but I will be thoroughly dismayed if that is to be based on the spurious '99 date, too.


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## Long in the tooth (30 Sep 2004)

Our enrolment and transfer system between RegF and Reserve (and vise versa) is primeval.   I believe the Ombudsman's assertions about enrolments, as I've seen first hand how long some of these files have been in play.   We spent tens of thousands of hours ensuring that data entered in peoplesoft was accurate but still must have the original pers file reviewed before a formal VFS is issued.   On the flip side, I'm sure Mr Marin probably wouldn't appreciate investigating 'irregular enrolments' because someone cut corners...


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## ICEDEAR (30 Sep 2004)

edit


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## bigwig (1 Oct 2004)

I read that the other day in the Toronto Sun and thought what a lucky SOB I am for getting in when I did. I think paramedic should read this, it might give him some answers as to why he wasn't selected yet....YET!


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## DrSize (1 Oct 2004)

"recommendations within nine months on how the military can loosen rigid recruiting rules that he believes exclude healthy and gung-ho Canadians on technicalities."

I have a feeling I may fall under some technicality for the medical even though I am healthy....the only thing I can think of why I was given a 3 for geographical was for an old sports injury from like 10 years ago that I have fully recovered from some odd 10 years ago


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## AndrewD83 (1 Oct 2004)

Am I missing something?  That article is very unclear.  How are potential recruits being rejected from positions in the army?  Is it due to their previous health conditions?

I need my Vancouver Sun to spell every issue out for me I guess.   ;D

By the way Dr.Size thanks for your words of wisdom on the CFAT.  I wrote the CFAT in mid Sept and passed it with flying colours.


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## Stymiest (1 Oct 2004)

I think the recruiting process is all quite ridiculous.

I am fit as a whistle and have no health problems at all.  I applied two months ago to join the army reserve and went in for my medical yesterday and because I had Migraines when I was a young boy and had a injury to the spleen playing hockey (it wasn't removed and is perfectly fine) I have to wait another four months to get into this program.   

I am not even sure if I will be getting in yet its really quite annoying.  I should of just lied about the migraines as they have never even been documented and I never took any medication for them.

I want to apply to RMC and thought this would be a perfect way of getting in and if not making some cash on the side for college.  Now because of this huge hassle I have to wait another 3 months and I don;t want to get a job and have to quit (what a friggin predicament).  Maybe I'll just lie about my past health issues the next time i go in for medicals  

Seriously though I hcan;t even remember the last time I had a migraine and all this holdup is really starting to get to me.  6 months to get a job is ridiculous and I think this system needs to be looked at.


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## Griswald DME (2 Oct 2004)

It amazes me when guys complain they've been waiting months when I've been waiting years.  I've even heard of one guy who posts here who waited five years before he got in.  Months is not that long in military years.


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## DrSize (2 Oct 2004)

Holy shit Stymiest that is most likely what the problem is with my medical...I am now 24 years old but mentioned when i was young (under 5 years) I'd get migraines but have not had a headache since then................that is fuckin crazy, what program am I going to have to register in?


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## Griswald DME (2 Oct 2004)

Not-so-funny thing is the Ombudman issued a press release in 2002 almost exactly the same, complaints about CF recruiting.  Things haven't improved since if its back in the news again, so who here thinks it will improve THIS time around?  Honestly, not trying to bitch, just asking who thinks things will improve.

DME


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## lfejoel25 (3 Oct 2004)

radiohead said:
			
		

> Well from what I've heard the CF's for have a regional quota system set up.   30 or 40% are set a side for the mari-time provinces, so if that's true then there is discrimination.   Might be great if live out east, but if come Ontario or Alberta where they lower quotas it just adds to your wait time to get in.



I wonder if those numbers were based on the number of people that were enlisting from those areas to begin with.  for those of you in the forces, how many guys do you work with that are newfs.  (soon to be one more if i can get in)

I just put a complaint in about the recruitment process.  Not so much a complaint as letting them know my situation.  I can't get in until i do something about $9000 worth of debt incurred after i lost my job 5 years ago.  The problem is i don't make enough money to do anything about it, but would if i got in.  i think it'll be a real shame if i get denied because of a relatively small debt in the scheme of things.


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## Scott (3 Oct 2004)

radiohead said:
			
		

> Well from what I've heard the CF's for have a regional quota system set up.   30 or 40% are set a side for the mari-time provinces, so if that's true then there is discrimination.   Might be great if live out east, but if come Ontario or Alberta where they lower quotas it just adds to your wait time to get in.



I was told a couple of years back that the quota system was gone. Maybe one of the recruiters who visits here can confirm or deny? Take a look at Newfoundland, I saw a report from a few years back that said that close to 15% of the troops come from the rock yet they only see 2% of defence spending. I am curious to know if there is such a thing as a breakdown of the CF membership by province recruited from, that may put to rest some of this.


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## Michael OLeary (14 Jan 2005)

National Post 
2005.01.14 

Undermanned military makes it hard to enlist: 'Spinning out of control'

OTTAWA - The  Canadian Forces continues to frustrate prospective recruits, unable to efficiently process even a third of new applications, the military ombudsman says.  "The recruiting centres are spinning out of control trying to pretend there is not an issue," ombudsman Marin  said yesterday.  "The top levels of the chain of command are saying, as well as the Auditor-General ... there are fundamental problems."  More than two-thirds of 156 complaints to the military ombudsman's office from recruits in recent months cited long delays in processing applications beyond the Forces' stated goal of clearing successful applicants within seven weeks, Mr. Marin said. 

During last year's federal election campaign, Prime Minister Paul Martin promised 5,000 new full-time troops and 3,000 part-time reservists. But Mr. Marin says a preliminary investigation, launched after his annual report in September, shows the Forces continues to be burdened by major systemic recruiting problems. 

Mr. Marin  said the Forces was able to meet its seven-week target of processing applications in only 30% of the cases he examined, and that was only in cases where voluminous paperwork -- birth certificates, references, proof of education -- was near-perfect and there were no security clearance or health issues. 

Mr. Marin  said applicants interviewed by his office expressed fear their applications would be ignored or shuffled to the bottom of the pile if they complained. 

Mr. Marin  criticized recruiters for fostering a "chilling effect" that is forcing many applicants to keep their complaints private. 

Mr. Marin's findings come on the eve of Mr. Martin's announcement of a new Chief of Defence staff, Lieutenant-General Rick Hillier. Lt.-Gen. Hillier is being fast-tracked into the new job and will be sworn in on Feb. 4, months ahead of when the current defence chief, General Ray Henault, had planned to step down. 

Senior federal officials say Mr. Martin wants Lt.-Gen. Hillier on the job sooner so he can tackle the recruiting problem and shepherd the ongoing review of defence policy that is to be completed when Parliament resumes at the end of January. 

Mr. Marin  said the Forces could use the leadership in tackling its recruitment woes. He said he hoped Lt.-Gen. Hillier would be "candid and upfront and say there are issues here, and not only do I support an outside overseer, but I embrace it and any solutions you can put forward." 

The Forces' second-in-command recently testified before a Senate committee that the military has not begun trying to recruit the new soldiers promised by Mr. Martin because it does not have the resources in its recruiting
offices. Vice-Admiral Ron Buck predicted it could take the military up to five years to recruit the new bodies but that the initiative is on hold until the government boosts defence spending. 

This week, Finance Minister Ralph Goodale gave the strongest indication yet the Forces would receive an infusion of new cash in the upcoming federal budget. 

Mr. Marin  said he is receiving good co-operation from military officials and he hopes to issue a final report, with recommendations about how to improve recruiting, before he steps down from the job this spring.


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## mo-litia (15 Jan 2005)

Being that I know of two guys (At this moment, there have been several more in the past.) who have had CFRC sitting on their component transfers for over 9 months since they left our chain I'd say there are definitely problems that need to be worked out.


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## Griswald DME (17 Jan 2005)

I know one other fellow plus myself that have been waiting for a CT for over three years.  We are both QL5 qualified in the same trade we are joining reg. force in, and they are offering bonuses for both our trades.  If I got in within nine months I'd be tap dancing.

Thank god my wife has been patient.  She didn't realize the "hurry up and wait" would be "hurry up and wait for YEARS to get something done that should take a few months".

DME


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## pbi (18 Jan 2005)

Finally the truth comes out-too bad it was Mr Marin that did it. We have been waving the red flag about this in the Army Reserve for the last few years, but although  the Army CofC  took us seriously, when we got the response of the Purple People it was, as usual, just another wave-off with bland generalities. A few observation from the Res POV:

-the system is not set up to meet the Res recruiting needs. It is set up to trickle-feed a few recruits at a time into a single RegF recruit depot, from a network of CFRCs all across the country. This is useless for the Res. The Res needs 30, or 50, or 100 recruits in a certain local area, quickly. The CFRCs just do not have this capability;

-the CFRC has no integral Res capability to augment its full time day staff. Maybe if there were CFRCs with Class A team members who could work weeknights and weekends, when most Res recruits are available, the system could increase its throughput;

-the CFRG has, to the best of my knowledge, no ability to expand in an emergency, based on what false premise I do not know; and

-because the recruiting system does not answer directly to its "customers" but is instead a Purple Monster, the "operators" whose organizations are so severely affected by its performance have no real means to influence it.

Cheers.


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