# CFAT scores qualify for Sig, Intelligence, tech trades, but not Infantry?



## allista (17 Sep 2021)

*I would like to preface this by saying THE CAF DOES NOT OWE ME ANYTHING, and that despite the results I received, I would serve this country faithfully in any capacity provided I am given the opportunity.*


So I did my CFAT today and was told I didn't make the cutoff for infantry yet several tech trades that most definitely required higher scores (it's not as if I know, but I'd assume so) were made available to me strangely enough.

I'm definitely aware of my math and spatial weaknesses but I was sure I'd score high enough on all categories to at least make the cutoff for infantry, though I asked around on Reddit and was told my scores may have been enough to qualify for infanteer, but not enough to be competitive on the CL or the PCL.

I've gotten rather vague answers regarding this and the recruiting officer who sat me down for a debrief was rather vague talking about all the benefits of intel, signals, etc trying to wave a chance to get a security clearance in front of me (he even mentioned "secret squirrel" jobs lmao). Wouldn't I be more than qualified for infantry if I received an offer for most tech trades and signal operator in addition to intel?

I'm rather confused and considering either requesting a rewrite or dropping my application entirely and trying again later when after a prolonged period of study and research, don't want to get shoehorned into a job I don't want. Is it possible that my results/the full list of jobs I qualified for are being withheld in favor of trying to shoehorn me into one of the more in-demand occupations? Could use some advice here fellas, thanks!


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## loneprivate (22 Sep 2021)

To your Q: "Is it possible that my results / the full list of jobs I qualified for are being withheld in favor of trying to shoehorn me into one of the more in-demand occupations?", the answer is NO.
Your CFAT is just too low for infantry and you have been lucky to have other choices. However, your file will be probaly not enough competitive to be selected and received an offer.  Keep in mind, there are annually more than 20 000 applicants and only 5 000 will receive an offer. I invite you to start ASAP your CFAT preparation as they suggested you and once ready ask for your 2nd attempt.


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## da1root (22 Sep 2021)

allista,

Let me explain the "PCL" - it's essentially a cut off line - so although your CFAT by itself may've qualified you for Infantry (and it very may have if you qualified for other tech type trades) but the PCL moves higher or lower based on the number of positions available and the number of applicants - the PCL can change year to year.

For example, if there are 1,000 positions (I don't think the CAF has ever given 5,000 Infantry offers in 1 year) and 10,000 applicants then there will be 1 PCL level - let's say PCL 60 for example.  Those same 1,000 positions and 20,000 applicants, the PCL will be higher (say 80); the same 1,000 positions and 5,000 applicants the PCL will be lower (say 40). 

The PCL allows CFRC to prioritize files; why process a file in a year with 20,000 applicants that is in the bottom 10,000?  They're never going to get in - so a PCL is set so that only the top 3,000 to 5,000 applicants are processed.   So if your PCL is 55 then you would only qualify for processing in one of those 3 situations, but if your PCL is 90 you could be processed no matter what.

This is in all trades, so while you were told you don't qualify for processing for Infantry, it might have a higher PCL than another occupation based solely on the number of applicants.

Also take into consideration that your score to be processed is a combination of your CFAT, TSD and Interview - so your score for Infantry could be lower than your score on another occupation.  For example if I were to apply my score on Infantry would be lower than my score on Military Police as I would perform better in the interview for MP.

All this said, my expertise is NOT the hard arm occupations - and as always your CFRC has better information on your file than we ever will because they know what your scores are.  If you don't understand why you're being offered other occupations and not infantry, ask them.


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## da1root (22 Sep 2021)

As an aside allista, I've noted that you posted this exact same post twice on the board - in the future please do not make multiple posts that are the exact same.


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## allista (23 Sep 2021)

da1root said:


> As an aside allista, I've noted that you posted this exact same post twice on the board - in the future please do not make multiple posts that are the exact same.


Thank you for letting me know


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## allista (23 Sep 2021)

loneprivate said:


> To your Q: "Is it possible that my results / the full list of jobs I qualified for are being withheld in favor of trying to shoehorn me into one of the more in-demand occupations?", the answer is NO.
> Your CFAT is just too low for infantry and you have been lucky to have other choices. However, your file will be probaly not enough competitive to be selected and received an offer.  Keep in mind, there are annually more than 20 000 applicants and only 5 000 will receive an offer. I invite you to start ASAP your CFAT preparation as they suggested you and once ready ask for your 2nd attempt.


This appears to be the move at the moment, I studied my butt off and seem to have scored decently on the math and verbal portions utterly failed in the spatial portions of the test. I do agree this calls for a great deal of personal reflection and even more study. I thank you and everyone else on Army.Ca for their feedback and advice. Have an excellent day!


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## allista (23 Sep 2021)

da1root said:


> allista,
> 
> Let me explain the "PCL" - it's essentially a cut off line - so although your CFAT by itself may've qualified you for Infantry (and it very may have if you qualified for other tech type trades) but the PCL moves higher or lower based on the number of positions available and the number of applicants - the PCL can change year to year.
> 
> ...


As I understand it despite being offered many tech trades and very aggressively being pushed towards an intelligence contract, my CFAT just may not be competitive to even get past the PCL, let alone the CL with the scores I got. Sad to hear honestly but I'm hoping that many more long hours of study can try to help remedy this. I thank you for this writeup and hope to one day make the cut to join the wonderful men and women that make up the CF.


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## allista (24 Sep 2021)

loneprivate said:


> To your Q: "Is it possible that my results / the full list of jobs I qualified for are being withheld in favor of trying to shoehorn me into one of the more in-demand occupations?", the answer is NO.
> Your CFAT is just too low for infantry and you have been lucky to have other choices. However, your file will be probaly not enough competitive to be selected and received an offer.  Keep in mind, there are annually more than 20 000 applicants and only 5 000 will receive an offer. I invite you to start ASAP your CFAT preparation as they suggested you and once ready ask for your 2nd attempt.


Update: I recently received an email that basically revised my list of available trades, turns out I also qualified for Military Police. Are the standards for the infantry trade really so high that they even beat out MPs to the point where I couldn't even get infantry listed as available? Something feels wrong even taking into account the way the PCL works.


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## cyber_lass (26 Sep 2021)

allista said:


> Update: I recently received an email that basically revised my list of available trades, turns out I also qualified for Military Police. Are the standards for the infantry trade really so high that they even beat out MPs to the point where I couldn't even get infantry listed as available? Something feels wrong even taking into account the way the PCL works.


You can have a high score and still not be competitive in comparison to other candidates. If everyone scores high or there is already so many in x trade, then you will need to score that much higher to be competitive. And my understanding is that infantry is one of the most popular trades, if not the most popular trade. So It might not be a "thinking" based trade (needing a high CFAT in comparison to say tech trades), but if there is huge amount of people who want the same trade, well that would bump up the score needed to be competitive.


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## dapaterson (26 Sep 2021)

If Infanteer is overborne at Pte/Cpl, it is unlikely that they would be offering positions.


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## KevinB (26 Sep 2021)

allista said:


> Update: I recently received an email that basically revised my list of available trades, turns out I also qualified for Military Police. Are the standards for the infantry trade really so high that they even beat out MPs to the point where I couldn't even get infantry listed as available? Something feels wrong even taking into account the way the PCL works.


Take it from someone who was an Infanteer - it seems a lot cooler when you are young, and it is a young mans game.
   Tech trades will provide a much better standard of life in your later years.
 Signals and Int also can springboard into some more interesting options as well.


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## allista (26 Sep 2021)

cyber_lass said:


> You can have a high score and still not be competitive in comparison to other candidates. If everyone scores high or there is already so many in x trade, then you will need to score that much higher to be competitive. And my understanding is that infantry is one of the most popular trades, if not the most popular trade. So It might not be a "thinking" based trade (needing a high CFAT in comparison to say tech trades), but if there is huge amount of people who want the same trade, well that would bump up the score needed to be competitive.


So hypothetically if my score was good enough to qualify for infantry but not good/competitive enough to get me onto the CL barring me from being processed for it, it doesn't necessarily mean I scored poorly just that it's a super competitive trade to get in, but theoretically, once I'm actually enrolled in the CF could I just make a switch to the infantry internally if given the chance? (I am aware this is trade-dependent)

Can one assume that getting into a trade would be a different process for off-the-street applicants as opposed to somebody who's already enrolled in the CF? Does the PCL factor in even when enrolled and requesting an OT/VOT or is it only applied to off-the-street applicants?


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## allista (26 Sep 2021)

KevinB said:


> Take it from someone who was an Infanteer - it seems a lot cooler when you are young, and it is a young mans game.
> Tech trades will provide a much better standard of life in your later years.
> Signals and Int also can springboard into some more interesting options as well.


As much as I want to agree with you, there's something about simply being I couldn't hack it that irritates me to no end, to a point where it's not even that I'm mad about not getting infantry, I just want to know if my scores were good in general.

If I'm being honest I could probably live with not being offered a combat arms trade if it was due to something like the PCL (which is variable of course) barring me from it as opposed to me not scoring high enough on the CFAT.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Sep 2021)

allista said:


> *Are the standards for the infantry trade really so high *


You bet.


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## FormerHorseGuard (27 Sep 2021)

They are recruiting, the military fills the needs of the military using the recruiting pool that comes along. They fill the needs of the army of tomorrow with bodies that come along today. Maybe they do not need infantry troops right now or need them tomorrow but need bodies in the trades they offered you.  Just because you want to be infantry, does not mean you are going to be one if they need and think you will fit else where better for their needs not yours


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## cyber_lass (27 Sep 2021)

allista said:


> So hypothetically if my score was good enough to qualify for infantry but not good/competitive enough to get me onto the CL barring me from being processed for it, it doesn't necessarily mean I scored poorly just that it's a super competitive trade to get in, but theoretically, once I'm actually enrolled in the CF could I just make a switch to the infantry internally if given the chance? (I am aware this is trade-dependent)


Your CFAT still plays a part if you want to transfer. So no, don't believe it is just as easy as "switching".


allista said:


> Can one assume that getting into a trade would be a different process for off-the-street applicants as opposed to somebody who's already enrolled in the CF? Does the PCL factor in even when enrolled and requesting an OT/VOT or is it only applied to off-the-street applicants?


I am not sure of the particulars for remustering. But I think what you are getting at; is it easier.  No, not that I have heard. And your CFAT still matters. Not only that, as I was told, you could wait in your trade currently because they could be short staffed. So they may not even let you leave (so I would think 2x whether it is worth taking something, then hoping to remuster). And you have to be a competitive candidate to move into your new trade.  I have heard it taking longer than an off the street candidate. Why, no idea, ask someone who has gone through it or works on these files.


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## allista (27 Sep 2021)

cyber_lass said:


> Your CFAT still plays a part if you want to transfer. So no, don't believe it is just as easy as "switching".
> 
> I am not sure of the particulars for remustering. But I think what you are getting at; is it easier.  No, not that I have heard. And your CFAT still matters. Not only that, as I was told, you could wait in your trade currently because they could be short staffed. So they may not even let you leave (so I would think 2x whether it is worth taking something, then hoping to remuster). And you have to be a competitive candidate to move into your new trade.  I have heard it taking longer than an off the street candidate. Why, no idea, ask someone who has gone through it or works on these files.


Thanks again for breaking this down for me, I'll try and take all of this into consideration when I head down to CFRC in a few days.


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## loneprivate (30 Sep 2021)

allista said:


> So hypothetically if my score was good enough to qualify for infantry but not good/competitive enough to get me onto the CL barring me from being processed for it, it doesn't necessarily mean I scored poorly just that it's a super competitive trade to get in, but theoretically, once I'm actually enrolled in the CF could I just make a switch to the infantry internally if given the chance? (I am aware this is trade-dependent)
> 
> Can one assume that getting into a trade would be a different process for off-the-street applicants as opposed to somebody who's already enrolled in the CF? Does the PCL factor in even when enrolled and requesting an OT/VOT or is it only applied to off-the-street applicants?


PCL is only apllied for off-the-street applicants.  In fact it,s for their management expectations. There is no PCL for OT/VOT for CAF applicants. Boards selection use the PSO score and selected applicant are selected from a Top Down scores amd the SIP give the cut-off line.


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## allista (30 Sep 2021)

loneprivate said:


> PCL is only apllied for off-the-street applicants.  In fact it,s for their management expectations. There is no PCL for OT/VOT for CAF applicants. Boards selection use the PSO score and selected applicant are selected from a Top Down scores amd the SIP give the cut-off line.


Thanks, I'm happy to be processed as a signaller, but if the opportunity arises I'd definitely try and switch to infantry through a VOT-U, I will take all the information I have been provided into consideration


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## loneprivate (30 Sep 2021)

allista said:


> Thanks, I'm happy to be processed as a signaller, but if the opportunity arises I'd definitely try and switch to infantry through a VOT-U, I will take all the information I have been provided into consideration


Keep in mind, once OFP/qualified in your occupation you,re ineligible for VOT-U for 3 years from date OFP.


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## allista (17 Sep 2021)

*I would like to preface this by saying THE CAF DOES NOT OWE ME ANYTHING, and that despite the results I received, I would serve this country faithfully in any capacity provided I am given the opportunity.*


So I did my CFAT today and was told I didn't make the cutoff for infantry yet several tech trades that most definitely required higher scores (it's not as if I know, but I'd assume so) were made available to me strangely enough.

I'm definitely aware of my math and spatial weaknesses but I was sure I'd score high enough on all categories to at least make the cutoff for infantry, though I asked around on Reddit and was told my scores may have been enough to qualify for infanteer, but not enough to be competitive on the CL or the PCL.

I've gotten rather vague answers regarding this and the recruiting officer who sat me down for a debrief was rather vague talking about all the benefits of intel, signals, etc trying to wave a chance to get a security clearance in front of me (he even mentioned "secret squirrel" jobs lmao). Wouldn't I be more than qualified for infantry if I received an offer for most tech trades and signal operator in addition to intel?

I'm rather confused and considering either requesting a rewrite or dropping my application entirely and trying again later when after a prolonged period of study and research, don't want to get shoehorned into a job I don't want. Is it possible that my results/the full list of jobs I qualified for are being withheld in favor of trying to shoehorn me into one of the more in-demand occupations? Could use some advice here fellas, thanks!


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## PuckChaser (30 Sep 2021)

And the OUTCAP from Sigs is stupid low because it's a failing trade.


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## allista (1 Oct 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> And the OUTCAP from Sigs is stupid low because it's a failing trade.


I was not aware, what's wrong with it?


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## PuckChaser (1 Oct 2021)

Over worked and under paid demoninantly. Sigs are required for almost every aspect of a modern military, so once the trade lost enough people, those that are left pick up the slack. The officer corps are trained more of IT project managers than military leaders so it accelerates the problems. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but that love will eventually hit its limit if things don't change.


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## allista (2 Oct 2021)

PuckChaser said:


> Over worked and under paid demoninantly. Sigs are required for almost every aspect of a modern military, so once the trade lost enough people, those that are left pick up the slack. The officer corps are trained more of IT project managers than military leaders so it accelerates the problems. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but that love will eventually hit its limit if things don't change.


That is unfortunate to hear, here's hoping that a real need for sigs leads to some real change in leadership and a serious look at the issues that have caused such an exodus from the trade.


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## winds_13 (3 Oct 2021)

allista, while I do not know your actual score, it is certainly possible to meet the minimum required score for Intelligence Operator, Signals Technician, and MP while not meeting the minimum for Infantry Soldier, regardless of the PCL. This is because the minimum requirements by trade are not simply based off of total score. While some trades do simply have a minimum total score (such as the majority of technician trades), others also have a minimum score specifically for Verbal Skills, Spatial Ability, Problem Solving, or a sum of 2 sections. As such, it is possible to have a high enough total CFAT score for Infantry Soldier, but fail to meet minimum score requirements if you score too low in a specific section.

One question I have is if you were told that you qualified for Gunner or Armoured Soldier, as they have the same minimum CFAT requirements as Infantry Soldier, but are much less competitive trades. Additionally, some of the trades that you were offered, such as Intelligence Operator, tend to be much more competitive than Infantry Soldier and have some of the highest PCLs of any NCM trades... which means you either have a high total score, or the PCL does not apply to you (perhaps due to considerations of Employment Equity).









						The Canadian Forces jobs where only women need apply
					

The military has built a two-tiered system – 'one tier for white men and the other for women and visible minorities,' a source says




					nationalpost.com


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## allista (3 Oct 2021)

winds_13 said:


> One question I have is if you were told that you qualified for Gunner or Armoured Soldier, as they have the same minimum CFAT requirements as Infantry Soldier, but are much less competitive trades. Additionally, some of the trades that you were offered, such as Intelligence Operator, tend to be much more competitive than Infantry Soldier and have some of the highest PCLs of any NCM trades... which means you either have a high total score, or the PCL does not apply to you (perhaps due to considerations of Employment Equity).


Hi,
I was told that I didn't qualify for any combat arms jobs (however only infantry was mentioned), but your comment about Employment Equity has piqued my interest because as far as  I know, under Employment Equity the PCL is not applicable to members of visible minorities, of which I am. Is it possible that this fact was overlooked by the recruiting detachment?

That being said, your explanation of my predicament makes a lot of sense to me, I can see how my scores could have factored in while the PCL appears to have been the "nail in the coffin" so to speak.


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## Blackadder1916 (3 Oct 2021)

allista said:


> Hi,
> I was told that I didn't qualify for any combat arms jobs (however only infantry was mentioned), but your comment about Employment Equity has piqued my interest because as far as  I know, under Employment Equity the PCL is not applicable to members of visible minorities, of which I am. Is it possible that this fact was overlooked by the recruiting detachment?
> 
> That being said, your explanation of my predicament makes a lot of sense to me, I can see how my scores could have factored in while the PCL appears to have been the "nail in the coffin" so to speak.



Did you have your medical done before you were told that you didn't qualify for infantry?  If so, then it is possible that you may have been so informed because your vision category (V4? - as per your question in another thread) does not meet the minimum required for any of the combat trades.


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## winds_13 (3 Oct 2021)

allista, by the sounds of it, it was not the PCL but your CFAT score _by section_ that is the reason why you were not offered to be processed for combat arms trades, including Infantry Soldier. As I stated, it is possible to meet the minimum CFAT scores for many technician trades while not meeting it for combat arms trades, although it is uncommon. It does not appear that the recruiting staff overlooked anything.


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## allista (3 Oct 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Did you have your medical done before you were told that you didn't qualify for infantry?  If so, then it is possible that you may have been so informed because your vision category (V4? - as per your question in another thread) does not meet the minimum required for any of the combat trades.


I had my CFAT prior to my medical so I can assume it was largely due to my CFAT/TSD scores.


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## allista (3 Oct 2021)

winds_13 said:


> allista, by the sounds of it, it was not the PCL but your CFAT score _by section_ that is the reason why you were not offered to be processed for combat arms trades, including Infantry Soldier. As I stated, it is possible to meet the minimum CFAT scores for many technician trades while not meeting it for combat arms trades, although it is uncommon. It does not appear that the recruiting staff overlooked anything.


Yeah, I think I'm starting to see the bigger picture. Didn't study hard enough, came in at a bad time likely intellectually and physically (eyesight), couldn't make the cut-off, that's on me. I hold no ill will towards the CF regarding any of this.

I greatly appreciate your and everyone else's input on my issues trying to join the Forces and apologize for wasting everyone's time.

Frankly, I'm considering putting my application on hold for dropping it entirely, getting my eyes fixed, studying my butt off for the CFAT and trying the whole process again in a few years. I don't want to end up being pigeonholed into a job I don't want and messing up my life because I was too eager to get my foot in the door.

Thanks again to everyone for their input and advice, here's hoping I make it in one of these days!


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