# Full time (reg force) Army base in BC?



## Pugnacious (9 Sep 2004)

Why isn't there one?
Why just reserves?

Cheers!
P.


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## Inch (9 Sep 2004)

Politics. There's 2 airforce bases, Comox and Pat Bay, though Pat Bay is just 443 MH Sqn, plus CFB Esquimalt. So BC doesn't get an Army base.


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## JasonH (9 Sep 2004)

Havn't had much worry from anything Asian since ww2 and what not.   But honestly that is a good question, it'd be awesome if there were.   Plenty of moutains and what not you could use for Moutain Warfare Training and what not if there was a Reg Force base here along with maybe a Battleschool or two.

But all in the end put it this way, it's cost cutting measures in the end.   With CFB whack being closed down (majority) even the reserves seem to get shafted.   It's not often you see a CF personal in uniform around here but you get the odd one once and awhile


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## JasonH (9 Sep 2004)

Inch said:
			
		

> Politics. There's 2 airforce bases, Comox and Pat Bay, though Pat Bay is just 443 MH Sqn, plus CFB Esquimalt. So BC doesn't get an Army base.



 :'( :-\


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## Matt_Fisher (9 Sep 2004)

There used to be bases where reg. force Army units were stationed at in BC:

3 PPCLI was at the Work Point Barracks at CFB Esquimalt until 1993 (?) when they got back from one of the first UN tours in Croatia and the battalion was moved to CFB Chilliwack and reduced in strength as part of the ill-fated 'Total Force 10-90' units, it was then reconstituted in Edmonton a couple years later as an entirely reg. force light infantry battalion.  

3 PPCLI also used to run a Battle School in Vernon and Nanaimo during the summer for militia recruits until the early 90s.

1 CER and the Canadian Forces School of Military Engineering (CFSME) were located at CFB Chilliwack until the late 90s (97/98 I think?) when 1 CER was moved to Edmonton and the CFSME was moved to Gagetown. 

Some people say it was a political decision to move the troops out of BC and close down the bases, as the ridings didn't send the right MPs to Ottawa, however I think it was done for more practical purposes.   There was no local training area that either 3 PPCLI or 1 CER could effectively maneuveur in, and for most FTXs they'd either pack up and go to the Chilcotin Valley in northern BC, down to Ft. Lewis or the Yakima Firing Center in Washington, or over to Wainwright or Suffield for brigade ex's.   Not that Edmonton has its own local training area either...

Dont' get me started on what a mistake it was to move 1CMBG out of Calgary where there was the local Sarcee Training Area and ranges, or that if they went to all the trouble to move the units to Edmonton, they'd have been better off putting everybody permanently in Wainwright.

And with the Wainwright coment I'll dig myself in and wait for the "*Wainwright...are you out of your f*cking mind?!?!" * bombardment to begin...


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## Pugnacious (9 Sep 2004)

Yah it is strange, and a shame as yes we have LOTS of open space to run around in here in BC.
I have been reading that BC has been the training and jumping off point for many units in WW1 and WW2.

Isn't China, and North Korea a pretty real threat these days?

Cheers!
P.


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## Matt_Fisher (9 Sep 2004)

China and North Korea "Threat"?

I'd suggest that you have a look at the official line put forth by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or the rest of government towards China and North Korea.

I don't think they've even got a publicized official position on any of the hot-button issues such as the Canadian response to a Chinese invasion of Taiwan or North Korea admitting it has nuclear arms or a conflict between the US/South Korea vs. North Korea.

Not to say that these aren't scenarios that should be thought about and contingency plans drawn up for, but the Canadian government is so wishy-washy that I don't think they'd commit to anything that might elude to the use of military force.

As far as BC being a good place for troops to maneuveur...Yes and no...

There is LOTS of open space to run around in BC, but where CFB Chilliwack and Esquimalt were located wasn't really in one of those open space areas.

The big kicker is ranges.  There aren't any ranges in BC you can do large-scale live-fire on which really limits your training opportunities.  When the Vernon Battle School was being run they'd have to send the recruits down to Chilliwack to do the grenade, M-72, and Carl-G qualification on as the range in Vernon is only limited to 7.62 (and I don't even think you're authorized to use it as a machine gun range...but I could be wrong on that).  And with that the Vokes ranges at Chilliwack I don't think can even be used for anything larger than live-fire section attack work.


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## Inch (9 Sep 2004)

Good info Matt.

The same sorta thing happened all over the place in the 90s, London Ontario used to be home to 1RCR until 92-93ish, Cornwallis was closed out here in Nova Scotia, plus a few AirForce bases like Summerside, Portage (3CFFTS is still there but the only military buildings are the O's mess and a couple hangars) and a bunch of Sqns got moved like the Herc Sqn that was in Edmonton and everything but the Sea Kings in Shearwater (which is a continuing fight to keep open).   It was all part of the "mega" bases that we moved towards in the 90s, the 3 major army bases being Edmonton, Petawawa and Valcartier. Gagetown is in there too, but it's mostly a training base with the exception of 2RCR.

Cheers


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## Infanteer (9 Sep 2004)

Does anyone know the status of the training area that was in the middle of the Caribou Chilcotin, out by Williams Lake?  It is still marked off on maps as a military area.


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## Brad Sallows (9 Sep 2004)

The Vernon and Nanaimo summer training camps were actually run by the reserve formation HQ (39 CBG in its previous incarnations).


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## pbi (9 Sep 2004)

Interesting discussion. A couple of comments:



> Dont' get me started on what a mistake it was to move 1CMBG out of Calgary where there was the local Sarcee Training Area and ranges, or that if they went to all the trouble to move the units to Edmonton, they'd have been better off putting everybody permanently in Wainwright.



I was intimately involved in the move of 1PPCLI to Edmonton in 1996/97, and I had served in the bn since 1989. The time had definitely come to leave Calgary: the city had grown so much that the base, which was way outside the city in the 1930s, was trapped inside a busy commercial/residential area. We were constantly dealing with noise complaints every time we fired blanks or used helos (ESPECIALLY when we used helos), we had at least one motor vehicle accident every time there was a major road move (sometimes serious ones), and there was an ongoing conflict with the Sarcee First Nation over access to the training area. Sarcee offered a fair selection of SA ranges, but it was a very restricted mech manouevre area. The infrastructure on the base was outdated, with the majority dating from the 1950s or even the 1930's or before. It was inevitable that we would leave. 

Having said that, I agree that we should have gone the whole way and moved the Bde to Wainwright. However, I have heard from several sources that local politics came into play. While the city of Edmonton/Strathcona County were only too happy to receive the new base, the town and RM of Wainwright were not. Contrary to popular opinion, Wainwright/RM do not survive because of the base-their main income is from oil and agriculture. Many people in Wainwright regard the base as a nuisance that they could do without.



> Does anyone know the status of the training area that was in the middle of the Caribou Chilcotin, out by Williams Lake?   It is still marked off on maps as a military area.



I believe that while this may still belong to DND, it is no longer in use for military training. Chilcoten was for years the epicentre of an ongoing dispute between the Fed Govt (DND) and the local First Nation over access and hunting rights. This got to the point that during one 1 CMBG RAPIER THRUST (any body remember those...?) the entire Bde road move was halted by a FN roadblock. We had to sit there while the local RCMP got the FN people out of the way, and a FEL cleared the road. Later, there was a very embarassing and unpleasant incident (that was brought up in the House of Commons) in which live ammo was thrown into the Riske Creek dump by some Army nitwit. The dump, which was also frequented by local FN people, was set on fire and unfortunately the ammo was ignited. The locals, in particular the FNs, were somewhat upset by this, to say the least. In the end, IIRC, 1 CER had to bury part of the dump, and we all got our willies smacked about putting ammo cans and boxes in the garbage.

I believe that incident contributed to the decision to cease training in the Chilcoten; the subsequent move of Chilliwack, 1 CER and CFSME may have been "chickens" or "eggs" in relation to that decision: I don't know.

Anyway, it was a great dismounted winter/alpine training area(crap for mech). Too bad we dont have it anymore. Cheers.


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## Pugnacious (9 Sep 2004)

Interesting topic indeed.
I vote for Nelson BC, right next to the proposed draft dodger monument.  ;D

Cheers!
P.


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## JasonH (10 Sep 2004)

Pugnacious said:
			
		

> Interesting topic indeed.
> I vote for Nelson BC, right next to the proposed draft dodger monument.   ;D
> 
> Cheers!
> P.



Ahahaha  ;D I needed that laugh when I herd sticken it next to the monument.  

Sigh... I'd give my left nut if they ever made a reg force base out here again.  Scenery is so beautiful, I don't wanna leave  :'( but alas it's for the better, for me anyways.  Gotta move on in life


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