# Stéphane Dion Win's Liberal Leadership Race



## warspite (2 Dec 2006)

Stephen Dion is now the leader of the liberal party.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/02/liberals.html


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## FredDaHead (2 Dec 2006)

Well, I guess the Conservatives can stop worrying about facing another election--and even if they do face one, they don't have to worry about losing to the Liberals.


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## 3rd Horseman (2 Dec 2006)

Fully agree, this could not be a better result. Dion will lose PQ as they will all vote Block and the ON people will hate that another francophone is going to lead the country. The west will just roll over as usual to the conservative default. We are going to win a big majority now....cant wait! I can just taste the power. ;D


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## Kirkhill (2 Dec 2006)

3rd Horseman said:
			
		

> Fully agree, this could not be a better result. Dion will lose PQ as they will all vote Block and the ON people will hate that another francophone is going to lead the country. The west will just roll over as usual to the conservative default. We are going to win a big majority now....cant wait! I can just taste the power. ;D



That sounds like a plan..................One that hasn't yet made contact with the enemy. ;D


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## 3rd Horseman (3 Dec 2006)

I do like the tought that the Liberals are the EN ;D

And everyone knows no plan survives contact with the En.


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## Spr.Earl (3 Dec 2006)

At least Stephen has no baggage in his past,has time in and he is not pretentious and a phony like Cretin,Bullony and the rest who have lead us down the garden path .

Time will tell.

Good Luck/Bon Chance Stephen.


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## FredDaHead (3 Dec 2006)

Not pretentious? The only politician I can think of that's as pretentious as Dion would have been Trudeau... Heck, Dion never bothered to talk to the Infoman (Quebec's version of Rick Mercer.. sortof) and was pretty rude on more than one occasion. He just likes to think he's respectable, and tends to be rather condescending.


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## wannabe SF member (3 Dec 2006)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Good Luck/Bon Chance Stephen.



Hmm the fresh smell of bilingualism, speaking of that I'm not sure i understood: Is Dion from Quebec.

(i wanted Ignatieff to win )


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## Kendrick (3 Dec 2006)

Yep, Stéphane Dion is from Quebec.


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## FredDaHead (3 Dec 2006)

Chawki Bensalem said:
			
		

> Hmm the fresh smell of bilingualism, speaking of that I'm not sure i understood: Is Dion from Quebec.
> 
> (i wanted Ignatieff to win )



Yes he is, sadly. Another of those idiots representing the worst of Quebec.

He also happens to be hated by most of Quebec. No, really, he's like that kid with the thick glasses who wears his pants above his navel, in elementary school.


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## MikeM (3 Dec 2006)

Well, things are now looking good for a Conservative majority, let's hope for the best.


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## peaches (3 Dec 2006)

Dion may be the best Lib leader for Harper to go up against but I very worried about Ontario.  The Quebecers are not big Dion fans, but will they (the non bloc voters) rather vote for him than Harper??  Return to their comfort zone, a Lib.  Same with Ontario, I think they will retreat into there comfort zone, Libs. The west will gone Conservitive, I will bet on that, but Quebec & Ontario, I am not so sure.  

Harper is very different that the status quoe Quebec & Ontario seem to like.  Afghanistan, more military money, most Quebec & Ontario voters feel out of their comfort zone.  Any thoughts.....


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## Bigmac (3 Dec 2006)

With Dion as the new Liberal leader I believe the Conservatives are safe. The problem is that many Canadian voters decide by their hearts and if another election is called it will probably be a Conservative win but I don't know if they would get a majority government. I can guarantee that the Afghanistan and Quebec "Nation" debates will be at the forefront of the next election.


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## peaches (3 Dec 2006)

I hope your right because a new Lib Gov't would be scary, although not nearly as scary as an NDP one.  I live in a North Bay where the local military base pumps allot into the community.  The people here generally support us, but are not comfortable with all this defence spending, or Afghanistan.  It's just that for the most part they have never seen this sort of thing before.  Most comments I get are "We support the troops, but we want you all to come home & be safe".  I am concerned that they will retreat to those comfort zones, and vote Lib.

I do my best to explain military life, what we need, and don't have, and how it benefits them.  About A-Stan, I again do my best to explain why, and what could become of us and the free world if we all do not stand up to this radical Islam garbage.  I guess all I can hope for is that it took........


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## Journeyman (3 Dec 2006)

warspite said:
			
		

> Stephen Dion is now the leader of the liberal party.


Stéphane Dion...not Steve   :


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## Edward Campbell (3 Dec 2006)

peaches said:
			
		

> Dion may be the best Lib leader for Harper to go up against but I very worried about Ontario.  The Quebecers are not big Dion fans, but will they (the non bloc voters) rather vote for him than Harper??  Return to their comfort zone, a Lib.  Same with Ontario, I think they will retreat into there comfort zone, Libs. The west will gone Conservitive, I will bet on that, but Quebec & Ontario, I am not so sure.
> 
> Harper is very different that the status quoe Quebec & Ontario seem to like.  Afghanistan, more military money, most Quebec & Ontario voters feel out of their comfort zone.  Any thoughts.....



Ontarians have one, largely unspoken, requirement for a PM: _keep Québec in its place._

For Ontarians that means:

1.	Inside Canada; and

2.	Subordinate.

Ontarians have, generally, favoured Québec based leaders on the (naïve) assumption that they might actually _understand_ Québec and can _manage_ the Québec file.  The missteps and blunders of Québecers Trudeau, Mulroney and Chrétien (rise of separatism and creation of the PQ, the Meech Lake fiasco and creation of the BQ, and a razor thin ‘win’ in the last referendum, respectively) seem to have passed unnoticed in Ontario.

That fact that Dion:

•	Is A Québecer;

•	Pretends to be _Green_; and

•	Is not _Bush Lite_;

May help him to maintain the Liberal stranglehold on the somnolent Ontario voters.


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## wannabe SF member (3 Dec 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Stéphane Dion...not Steve   :



fiouh I would have hated him to have the same name as the *right and honourable Prime minister*

Did you see how cocky the libs were at the election: "And the winner and the next prime minister of Canada­­" or " This is a bad day for Stephen Harper and not calling by his designations"
Seriously this is major little kid taunting.


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## observor 69 (3 Dec 2006)

Gotta love it Journeyman, Stevie Harper and Stevie Dion.  Makes it so much easier for Bushie to remember!


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## Magravan (3 Dec 2006)

Bah... They pre-empted my recording of The Simpsons for that?


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## peaches (3 Dec 2006)

In the last election I fear that Quebecers & Ontarians voted Conservitive to send a msg to the libs, and in the next they will again vote in a lib gov't.  I do not think all these easterners are too happy about a western Conservitive PM.  It's just not their style.  Vote in Dion, bye bye C17's, C130J's, new Helo an ships, pull out A-Stan ASAP, and revert to Peacekeeping, back into their comfort zone.   

Since the early 90's this counrty has been going in different directions, the west one way the east the other.  The west, soilid Tory except a few ridings, Ontario, pretty soild lib, Quebec mostly bloc.  Can't even imagine what happens when new lib PM goes after more Alta oil $$.

I fear this countries days could be numbered if we do not stop this left-right, east-west rift.....


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## Teddy Ruxpin (3 Dec 2006)

My initial reaction was one of fear and loathing, much for the same reasons Peaches has articulated.  Dion appears to be the Liberal "machine's" boy, preaching the same tired anti-military dogma that's plagued the party since Trudeau's time.  Dion might not have the same arrogance, but he has the same tired ideas; if the Liberals are elected again, we may be in big trouble.

Frankly, the smug look on Chrétien's face after the final ballot said it all to me.


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## Petard (3 Dec 2006)

Catching bits of the liberal convention, to me, was in a way like watching a flat, boring, and non violent "Soprano's" type of power settling. Once Chretien, still a power behind the scenes, said his "I like clarity"  bit (Stephane Dion being one of the main authors of the clarity act) I think that was the turning point and told their party which way he wanted them to go. Chretien is a crafty ole bugger, very wise to the Canadian political game, and I suspect still yields a lot of influence in the party, so probably most of the votes got swung by his implied direction.

From the news and polls (yeah I know about the 3 lies) I get the sense that the country is looking inward again, and maybe heading back to the same old same old Liberal way of thinking, and depending on the breaks in the next few months, a signifcant part of the Canadian public will want to change the guard on the hill, so to speak, once again to one they see as being more domestic focused in their agenda. Dion's arrogance might be the only wild card that could leave the outcome in doubt. Time will tell if the old fox, Chretien, called it right or not.


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## wannabe SF member (3 Dec 2006)

I'm from Quebec so i don't know,in the rest of Canada, is it badly perceived that Dion is Francophone?


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## George Wallace (3 Dec 2006)

Chawki Bensalem said:
			
		

> I'm from Quebec so i don't know,in the rest of Canada, is it badly perceived that Dion is Francophone?



I am sure that you can perceive quite well how Dion is perceived by the rest of Canadians, by reading the thread.


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## peaches (3 Dec 2006)

Dion, and old Jean, same guy as far as I am concerned, but I can understand what Dion is saying ;D.  Dion as PM will didvide this country even more.  Quebecers even madder, westerners futher alienated, just wonderful!!!

We need a big change in Canada, and I believe Harper can do it.  He is more a statesman that these lib clowns, but Ontario will not see that.  Retreat to the comfort zones.  

Was it just me or did "Lenningard Lloyd Robertson" & "Pyongyang Peter Mansbridge" seem almost giddy during this whole monstrousity.  

I bet we see an election called within 3 months, Dion gets minority, goodbye A-Stan, goodbye Gen Hillier, and goodbye Canada.  I am born & raised in Alberta, can't see many folks out there putting up with this lib nonsense much longer, especially if they go after oil $$.  God I hope I am wrong.....


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## Sheerin (3 Dec 2006)

> I am sure that you can perceive quite well how Dion is perceived by the rest of Canadians, by reading the thread.



Yeah, because this thread is a representative sample of the Canadian population.  :


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## wannabe SF member (3 Dec 2006)

Is it me or have all the liberal party leaders been francophone up to now? ???


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## peaches (3 Dec 2006)

Yes, you are correct, all quebecers, not sure about Turner though.  Nothing against QB, but it is time that we had leadership in this country from someweher else, a different perspective.  Not all US Presidents come from the same state, we need change.  I like Harper, a real statesman.


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## Old Sweat (3 Dec 2006)

Before we all start counting the Liberal eggs, remember that Dion was not the pick of the litter by the elites of the Liberal power establishment. That group split between Iggy and Rae, while the delegates ended up splitting between Dion and Rae, with the very loyal Kennedy delegates following their candidate to the former. Dion also was the longest serving Liberal of the top four, with Iggy in second place with only a year or so time on the ground.

Some commentators have suggested that Kennedy is poised to take the top job the next time round. I am not sure, as his deal could not have made him many friends in the power establishment, who spent a lot of money for no avail.

A lot can happen in an election campaign, but the Liberals spent a lot of money on this campaign and convention, do not have a lot in the bank and stand to be hurt most by the amendments of the financing rules. I know Dion is making noises about a Spring election, but I have my doubts, especially if the Tories bring down a budget full of tax cuts and other goodies.


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## canadianblue (3 Dec 2006)

The only two candidates that were preaching party renewal, and I think had any chance to be able to bring about a more positive view of the country both lose. Martha Hall Findlay and Gerard Kennedy I think were the two best choices in the leadership race. However, Liberal decision making doesn't have to make sense.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (3 Dec 2006)

Call me cynical but you won't see an election untill Feb. 2008, that way all the "second-timers" from all parties will have the 6 year pension safely in hand.......


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## observor 69 (3 Dec 2006)

For those who think this web site reflects the opinions of the Canadian public.....

The name is  "ARMY.ca"


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## armyvern (3 Dec 2006)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> For those who think this web site reflects the opinions of the Canadian public.....
> 
> The name is  "ARMY.ca"



And we currently have the Right Honourable Steven Harper as Prime Minister of this fine country. I think that, with the last election, the _silent_ majority, spoke their minds no?


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## warspite (3 Dec 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Stéphane Dion...not Steve   :


 :-[ :brickwall:
Oop's.....
Will change thread title accordingly.. 

Will leave first post unchanged though as a testament to the powers of proofreading ;D


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## observor 69 (3 Dec 2006)

Hey "Librarian" I just used Goggle to translate your Arabic tag line,.....you devil you!


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## George Wallace (3 Dec 2006)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> For those who think this web site reflects the opinions of the Canadian public.....
> 
> The name is  "ARMY.ca"



Just wondering what you think "ca" in the above stands for?  Are you a resident of Quebec?


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## armyvern (3 Dec 2006)

Baden  Guy said:
			
		

> Hey "Librarian" I just used Goggle to translate your Arabic tag line,.....you devil you!



 > Alas, I admit. It is true.


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## spud (3 Dec 2006)

Chawki Bensalem said:
			
		

> Is it me or have all the liberal party leaders been francophone up to now? ???



No.


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## warspite (3 Dec 2006)

Chawki Bensalem said:
			
		

> Did you see how cocky the libs were at the election: "And the winner and the next prime minister of Canada­­" or " This is a bad day for Stephen Harper and not calling by his designations"
> Seriously this is major little kid taunting.


Oh they were rude all right... Chretien took time out of his busy schedule to throw a few barbs at The Rt. Hon. Stephen Joseph Harper..
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/02/chretien-liberal.html


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## spud (3 Dec 2006)

Chawki Bensalem said:
			
		

> Did you see how cocky the libs were at the election: "And the winner and the next prime minister of Canada­­" or " This is a bad day for Stephen Harper and not calling by his designations"



Have you ever watched a political convention before? This is done at ALL conventions, it's simple, jingoistic political rhetoric that all parties resort to. Put on the brave face and fire up the troops. The Tories did the exact same thing. 


potato


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## observor 69 (3 Dec 2006)

Just wondering what you think "ca" in the above stands for?  Are you a resident of Quebec?

No George, Toronto, and believe me I really have to work at keeping my trap shut around here.


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## Good2Golf (3 Dec 2006)

Well, Dion went out and bought some KY so that Chretien could stick the Dark Sith Liberal Overlord's "Commander's Intent" up Dion's backside....niiiice!  ;D

Looking forward to the non-confidence vote in Feb on the budget...hu-ah!

G2G


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## Osotogari (3 Dec 2006)

If the eastern part of the country doesn't burden us with a lib government again, things should be OK.  Look for Dion & co to use the "Bush-lite" and Kyoto hysteria in the coming months, with the budget in Feb being voted down in order to force an election.  

Dion is an academic so if he ever does assume power then look for all sorts of social engineering type of taxes and legislation as well as an unsustainable and horribly expensive child care plan and no doubt a larger mandate for the gun registry.  From the view out west, there would also be a lot of cringing while some sort of NEP redux comes down the pike too.

Despite the election of a new leader, the libs are still the party of decripitude, corruption, and rampant Orwellian political correctness and isn't about to change.  Also, their view of Canada outside Quebec is confined to what can be seen from the top of the Toronto tower on a smog day.  Hopefully eastern Canada will pull its collective head out of its ass next election.


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## a_majoor (4 Dec 2006)

Some ideas to float into the blogosphere and public consiousness:

Stephan Dion *did nothing* while Canadian carbon emissions increased 30%

Stephan Dion *said nothing* while the Liberals stole millions of dollars from the taxpayers

Stephan Dion *heard nothing* when Canadians cried out for protection against crime

Why do we think Stephan Dion will do things differently today?


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## FredDaHead (4 Dec 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Some ideas to float into the blogosphere and public consiousness:
> 
> Stephan Dion *did nothing* while Canadian carbon emissions increased 30%
> 
> ...




Because a goldfish has a longer memory than the typical canadian voter?


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## Kirkhill (4 Dec 2006)

And Stephane has his first rebellion........He intends to whip the vote on same-sex marriage.



> ....Dion's indication that the caucus will have to toe the line is no contrast to anything said by the other seven contenders for the Liberal party crown during the leadership convention which ended Saturday with Dion's come-from-behind victory.
> 
> All the candidates from perceived frontrunners Michael Ignatieff and Bob Rae to last place finisher Martha Hall Findlay said that they would whip the vote, although candidate Joe Volpe was vague, saying he thought the matter was settled.
> 
> ...



Unity.

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=canada_home&articleID=2471950


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## Blindspot (4 Dec 2006)

The Liberals could've voted Jack the Ripper as party leader; Ontario would still vote Liberal.


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## vonGarvin (4 Dec 2006)

Comment from Worthy in today's Toronto Sun:

By PETER WORTHINGTON
While taking nothing away from Stephane Dion's remarkable victory, it's difficult not to see Stephen Harper as the real winner. 
Of all the main contenders for the leadership of the Liberal party, Dion is probably the one the Conservatives feared the least. From their standpoint, he's a known quantity who made little impact in previous Parliaments and whose environmental portfolio was screwed up with the fiasco of Kyoto, which the Liberals refused to acknowledge was impossible. 
That said, the tendency among both Liberals and Conservatives to underestimate Dion is irrefutable -- witness his win at the most exciting Liberal (or Conservative) leadership convention since Pierre Trudeau won all the marbles in 1968. 
The difference between '68 and now is that no one (except himself and his fans) took Dion very seriously, while everyone took Trudeau seriously. Dion seems to have few enemies in Parliament and is regarded cordially by all MPs. Trudeau, on the other hand, had no shortage of political foes -- even among Liberals. 
In 2006, is wasn't difficult for delegates to back Dion when their own candidate fell. 
So why is his victory cause for Tory rejoicing? 
Forget his vulnerability as a former minister in both the Chretien and Martin governments. The most difficult job Dion will have in the six months or so leading up to what is likely to be a spring election (after the traditional long winter holiday for MPs) is persuading Canadians that they want another prime minister from Quebec, whose English is so-so. 
MADE LITTLE IMPACT 
This may be unfair, but it's certainly the feeling in Western Canada, and maybe in Ontario and the Maritimes, too. Persuading Canadian voters that he's not another Trudeau, or Chretien, or Martin may be Dion's biggest challenge -- especially since his years in government made little impact. 
Also what must please Harper is the likelihood that the Bloc Quebecois will benefit most from Dion as Liberal leader. His commitment to national unity helps them. 
Another thing that bodes well for Harper (if he doesn't screw it up -- always a possibility) is that with a new leader, Liberals may drop in the polls. The leaderless Liberals were more or less steady in opinion polls. Nothing to disagree with because nothing was happening. 
*Up front will be Canada's military mission in Afghanistan*. The previous Liberal government initiated an "activist" role for the army, which the present Conservative government escalated, and made a big fuss about our troops and their combat qualities. This has since evolved into controversy. 
*Overlooked is that the Canadian-led campaign in the southern Kandahar region over the summer and fall has been a considerable success.* 
Our guys trounced the enemy. Yes, we had casualties and more deaths than many expected, but we quelled the Taliban and pacified the region -- for the time being. 
DONE CANADA PROUD 
There will be a resumption of fighting come spring, and there's the constant danger of suicide and car bombings. *But our troops have performed beyond expectations with commendable compassion and competence and done Canada proud. * 
The Van Doos are scheduled to replace the RCR in Afghanistan. That may have tricky consequences, since Quebec isn't as supportive of the military as the rest of Canada. 
Dion has said he wants our military in a more supportive role than a combat one,* which may sound reasonable but makes no sense. * 
Harper will likely force him to define that proposal as soon as the niceties of welcoming his leadership are dispensed with. 
Anyway, a spring election now seems assured.  

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2006/12/04/2621323-sun.html


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## Zell_Dietrich (4 Dec 2006)

I've watched Stéphane Dion for a while.  I've seen him carry himself with dignity and grace in situation where I believe I would not be as dignified. (Which I am sorry to say, some days is a really low mark)  I've seen this man stand true to his convictions and get vilified in his home community by those who want to break up Canada.  He is politically savvy,  he was one of the many Jean Chrétien supporters who was ousted by Martin, but unlike most of them,  he managed to get back on top.

I have read this thread from the beginning and I got upset that there is a perception that Stéphane Dion would pull out of Afghanistan, outlaw guns, and destroy the economy with hair brained environmental plans. 

I would like to point out that it was the Liberals who committed to Afghanistan in the first place and there is good grassroots support for continued operations in the party. Secondly, the Liberals had promised daycare and many other things for 12 years and never delivered.  Why would they suddenly start doing things when doing nothing but of loading onto the provinces keeps them in power. I really didn't like the idea that people would not for him because he is a Quebecor.  

I am from Alberta, I am an accountant and I am also in the reserves and not to over play the point I am more than fairly religious.  You can imagine where I fall on the political spectrum. (yupp slightly left of the NDP on social policy and more fiscally restrictive than the Tories)  I believe that Stephen Harper is a fundamentally well intentioned person.  I believe the same to be true of Stéphane Dion.  

I am sure that the problems in Quebec are not insurmountable for Mr Dion.  The only people who really hate him are the ones who wouldn’t vote for him anyways (separatists).  I Think only the NDP will make Afghanistan an issue and only hard line Tories will care about the Quebec Nation vote (and will simply stay home and not vote in protest) I think the next election will have new issues.

Mr. Dion,  largely responsible for the Clarity act.  That controversial legislation that says referendums have to be worded in a way that makes sense. This is in no small way a firewall around Canada. Stephen Harper co-authored the infamous letter urging Klein to build a firewall around Alberta https://www.albertaresidentsleague.com/letter.htm Which now has taken up its own political life http://www.albertaagenda.ca  

For me the choice is between someone who suffered for his political beliefs, fighting for Canada, defending my country, or for someone who gained politically by giving fodder to separatists.  (And despite claims to the contrary, the Alberta separatists are involved in and supportive of the Alberta agenda movement.  It would make it easier to separate) 

And on an aside,  I like that he still speaks English with an accent and wont repeat his comments to reporters in English so they can get their sound bite. I find it cute – although I know his handlers will swiftly break him of that.


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## probum non poenitet (4 Dec 2006)

Zell_Dietrich said:
			
		

> I have read this thread from the beginning and I got upset that there is a perception that Stéphane Dion would pull out of Afghanistan



Sorry to burst the bubble ...

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/53644.0.html


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## Zell_Dietrich (4 Dec 2006)

probum non poenitet said:
			
		

> Sorry to burst the bubble ...
> 
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/53644.0.html



http://www.canada.com/topics/news/politics/story.html?id=b476faeb-cd0e-4567-95f2-0c56cb1d6375&k=35236

''You have the Taliban, you have warlords, it is a complex situation. E and we need to work with the other nations to see if we can create a type of Marshall Plan like the one for Europe after the Second World War to be sure that the poppy can be used for licit activities. Otherwise I think it is very very difficult to make progress,'' said Dion.

I am under no illusion that this man doesn't have questions about the mission,  I am sure that he has taken a long and considered evaluation before making a decision.  I honestly believe that when he sees the progress being made and the necessity of the mission he will support it.  Everything I've read quoting him is his objections such as "we can't help out elsewhere" or "we aren't making enough progress".  I don't think he's come out and opposed the Afghan mission as un-winnable and called Canadian troops terrorists... (If I am wrong please show me)


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## probum non poenitet (4 Dec 2006)

To be fair, this is a selection of quotes woven together in an article.

And we certainly know how often reporters can create an impression far from the reality of what was orginally stated. So until I hear more from Dion, I'll back off somewhat.

But it will be interesting to see Dion's attitude towards Afghanistan, now that he is Leader of the Oppostion, and not a distant leadership hopeful. I am very interested to hear him take a position on Afghanistan in detail.

I have said it before, and I say it again: I hope that politicians can see that some matters are more important than the desire for a few seats, and if they do debate the mission, they do so constructively.


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## Sheerin (4 Dec 2006)

> And Stephane has his first rebellion........He intends to whip the vote on same-sex marriage.



Not much of a rebellion as John McKay made similar threats during the previous vote on same-sex marriage.  With any luck once this motion fails we'll never have to reopen this debate again.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Dec 2006)

I wasn't aware he is also a citizen of France either. Didn't the GG renounce her French citizenship before taking office?


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## observor 69 (5 Dec 2006)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware he is also a citizen of France either. Didn't the GG renounce her French citizenship before taking office?



I can't find that quote in this thread. Is this a fact?  No mention of it here!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephane_Dion


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Dec 2006)

Google gives a number of hits. I didn't read them all, just a couple. Don't really know if it's true, and it really doesn't matter to me. I won't be voting for him anyway.


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## MG34 (5 Dec 2006)

Jesus H Christ could have won the leadership of the Lieberal Party,with Mother Teresa as his running mate,I still wouldn't vote for them.


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## Zell_Dietrich (5 Dec 2006)

MG34 said:
			
		

> Jesus H Christ could have won the leadership of the Liberal Party,with Mother Teresa as his running mate,I still wouldn't vote for them.



*avoiding all of the fun jokes I could make here - you better believe they were both witty and pointed*

I think that is something you need to evaluate then.  Being from Alberta the NEP still makes me cringe, I have never voted Liberal ever, but if the Son of God and a Nun who is on the fast track to sainthood were in controll of the Liberals, I'd at least look at their platform.


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## Yrys (5 Dec 2006)

I've read somewhere on the web (which doesn't make it truth)
that S. Dion has double nationality, , because his mother is French.

My suggestion: don't ask him to forget his French nationality, he may need it,
after the PLC is done with him!

http://www.lactualite.com/article.jsp?content=20061202_173939_5308

I also heard on the radio this morning that he shared a commun ancestor
with Céline Dion, Jean du Buisson Guyon, which came in North america in
 1634, which make them  cousin at 10nd degree...

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20061205/CPACTUALITES/612050904/0


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## Teddy Ruxpin (5 Dec 2006)

And it begins:

From todays Toronto Star:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1165272611055&call_pageid=1982316913



> *Dion `not committed' to Afghan role*
> Liberal leader likely to press Tories hard about state of mission
> Dec. 5, 2006. 01:00 AM
> BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
> ...



Again, my spider's sense is twitching.  Back to being "boy scouts" if Dion has his way... :


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## a_majoor (5 Dec 2006)

Never mind the Taliban, Dion is after the Canadian economy!

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=68727f11-0775-4628-b677-0ddac003a716&p=1



> *Holes show in Dion's plan *
> Former environment minister weak in economics
> 
> John Ivison on the Hill
> ...


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## Kirkhill (5 Dec 2006)

Can you say "Planned Economy"?  >


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## spud (5 Dec 2006)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> Can you say "Planned Economy"?  >



Didn't they slide something like this by before? 

IIRC didn't they pour billions into so called arms-length agencies that were not accountable to anyone, even beyond the reach of the Auditor General. 

Which much like the Sponsorship scandal was a way to funnel money to preferred business's and groups without doing it through regular channels. Now they're going to set the market. 

Perhaps they can try to corner the OJ market too, just like Mortimer and Randolph Duke in Trading Places. . :


potato


----------



## a_majoor (6 Dec 2006)

You can study economics in school, or you can watch South Park ( ). The "Gnomes" episode offers instruction and insight into the nature of capitalism; as discussed in the long essay at this link.

Or you could tape the show and watch that instead of two years and a college diploma......

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/cantor3.html



> Of all South Park episodes, “Gnomes” offers the most fully developed defense of capitalism, and I will attempt a comprehensive interpretation of it in order to demonstrate how genuinely intelligent and thoughtful the show can be. Like the episode “Something Wall-Mart This Way Comes,” “Gnomes” deals with a common charge against the free market – that it allows large corporations to drive small businesses into the ground, much to the detriment of consumers. In “Gnomes” a national coffee chain called Harbucks – an obvious reference to Starbucks – comes to South Park and tries to buy out the local Tweek Bros. coffee shop. Mr. Tweek casts himself as the hero of the story, a small business David battling a corporate Goliath. The episode satirizes the cheap anti-capitalist rhetoric in which such conflicts are usually formulated in contemporary America, with the small business shown to be purely good and the giant corporation shown to be purely evil. “Gnomes” systematically deconstructs this simplistic opposition.
> 
> **************************************************************************************************
> 
> What is worse, the ordinary citizens misinterpret capitalist activity as theft. They focus only on what businessmen take from them – their money – and forget about what they get in return, all the goods and services. Above all, people have no understanding of the basic facts of economics and have no idea of why businessmen deserve the profits they earn. Business is a complete mystery to them – it seems to be a matter of gnomes sneaking around in the shadows and mischievously heaping up piles of goods for no apparent purpose. Friedrich Hayek noted this long-standing tendency to misinterpret normal business activities as sinister



Read the rest and force every Liberal, Dipper and Green you can get your hands on to watch South Park. Send Dion tapes of this episode too. Say I told you to!  ;D ;D ;D


----------



## a_majoor (6 Dec 2006)

Well, it seems even Dion's *one* accomplishment in Parliament was really the work of then rookie MP Stephen Harper.....

http://hallsofmacadamia.blogspot.com/2006/12/clarity-act-fog-of-steffis-war.html



> *Clarity Act: The fog of Steffi's war*
> 
> The current wave of moonbat mania is such that they can't say the word 'Dion' without automatically tacking on 'Clarity Act.' Much like Al Gore's claim to have invented the Internet, there's a tad more to the story.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kirkhill (6 Dec 2006)

Globe and Mail, 29 May 2004



> [Harper dismisses Layton's call to axe Clarity Act
> BRIAN LAGHI
> 
> Globe and Mail Update
> ...


----------



## wannabe SF member (6 Dec 2006)

Looks like those who were saying that Dion's double nationality would be a problem were right

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/canada_france_politics


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## wannabe SF member (8 Dec 2006)

Oh also, apparently Dion said he was ready to renounce his french nationality to become PM.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/07/dion-france.html?ref=rss


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## Sheerin (8 Dec 2006)

I honestly don't think its a big issue.  He was born in Canada and his loyalties are to Canada, not France.  It was not an issue for John Turner (and he wasn't even born in Canada) why should it be an issue for Dion?  

But hey lets be honest here.  The issue isn't that he's both Canadian and French, the issue is that he is the leader of the liberal party and as such the government and other opposition leaders need to attack something, even if its irrelevent.


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## George Wallace (8 Dec 2006)

So you see no problem with the Leader of our Government being French and perhaps being put into a situation where he would have to negotiate with France?  No conflict of interest or loyalties?  I would assume that you would have thought this out a bit more.

Frankly, if he were my plumber, I wouldn't care, but as my Prime Minister, it is unacceptable to know that his loyalties may not be for Canada, but for another nation.  What would he decide if we were at War with France?.......who would he side with?


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## cplcaldwell (8 Dec 2006)

IMHO.

This should be a no brainer. What is the use of his French citizenship? Does he not have enough privileges and rights as a Canadian? 

*If he wants to lead Canada he should be a Canadian, renounce France, and get on with it.*

When he gets defeated he can re-apply.

No big. _Or at least it shouldn't be._


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## Sheerin (8 Dec 2006)

John Turner was a citizen of the United Kingdom when he was Prime Minister, it didn't affect him and his dealings with the UK.
To be an officer in the Canadian Forces you can be a dual citizen.  
To be a member of the government you can be dual citizen

Personally I think your argument is weak.  If he says his loyalties are to Canada, I believe him.  Even if they weren't, what makes think you that renouncing his French citizenship would make a difference?


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## George Wallace (8 Dec 2006)

Canada is a member of the British Commonwealth.  Canada has no such links with France.

Canada has a long history of being a Subject of Britain, not France.

Within the Canada's major alliances, France is not one of the members. 

Up until we repatriated the Constitution, all Acts of Parliament required approval from the British Parliament and Royal Assent.

The world situation is changing rapidly since we repatriated the Constitution and there currently is a large number of people questioning (since Lebanon 'Rescue') the matter of Canadians holding Dual Citizenship.  

Perhaps your point that his renouncing his French Citizenship having no affect on his loyalties, other than symbolic, will be a negative factor in the Liberal's attempts in the next election.

The main issue is where does his loyalties lie.  If he is a citizen of a foreign nation, one would assume that there is where his loyalties will lie.  Not exactly what you want in your Leadership.


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## Kirkhill (8 Dec 2006)

Unlike the Head of State of France no "British" Head of State, who happens to be double-hatted as the Canadian Head of State, has ever said "Vive le Quebec Libre".  Charles DeGaulle, 1967.


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## mjohnston39 (8 Dec 2006)

```
Oh also, apparently Dion said he was ready to renounce his french nationality to become PM.
```

I watched the CBC interview Dion love-in and it simply shows this man has no integrity, he will say or do anything to win...  :


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## Yrys (8 Dec 2006)

Dion has the double nationality because his French mother ask it for him
when he was born... If he was hesiting to renounce his for fear of hurting his mother,
now he's free. Dion's mother said that she doesn't care...

(french article)

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20061207/CPSOLEIL/61207197/5293/CPSOLEIL


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## Sheerin (8 Dec 2006)

Why is it that a person with dual citizenship can be an officer in the armed forces, or a cabinet minister, but can't be the Prime Minister?  What you guys are suggesting is a slap in the face to everyone who holds dual citizenship, myself included.  Canada is a nation that recgonizes the importance of maintaining dual citizenship and as such it would be rather hypocritical to force someone to renounce it.


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## cplcaldwell (8 Dec 2006)

He can be PM with dual if he likes. No "can't" just "shouldn't, IMHO"

If you consider my opinion a slap in the face I would suggest de-sensitization training. Really. 

No one is talking about forcing Mr Dion to do anything. Some of us, including me, think that to appear to represent Canada 100% he should renounce his citizenship in France so as to avoid the appearance of conflict of interest. I am saying if he wants it back when he's done with it, re-apply. 

Free country, free to renounce, free to keep it, free to appear unbiased, free to appear biased. Free to get elected, free to get defeated.   

0.02


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Dec 2006)

Sheerin said:
			
		

> What you guys are suggesting is a slap in the face to everyone who holds dual citizenship, myself included.  Canada is a nation that recgonizes the importance of maintaining dual citizenship and as such it would be rather hypocritical to force someone to renounce it.



........and look where it got us during the evacuation of Lebanon. Everyone is entitles to their opinion. You don't have to agree with it, but there it is. Persons holding a sole citizenship could say the same about you. Many believe if you want to be a citizen of Canada, it should have your undivided attention and loyalty. Who's to say they are wrong?


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## George Wallace (8 Dec 2006)

Sheerin said:
			
		

> ...... What you guys are suggesting is a slap in the face to everyone who holds dual citizenship, myself included.  Canada is a nation that recgonizes the importance of maintaining dual citizenship and as such it would be rather hypocritical to force someone to renounce it.



Frankly, I don't give a damn about you.  As I said, if he were my plumber, I wouldn't care.  However, as the leader of my country, I do care and question the Loyalty of any Leader that would have a Foreign Citizenship.  

Even in the CF, dual citizenship may be a problem.  What happens if we have a Mission in your 'native' land?  What Loyalty would we expect of you?  That is the problem.  Most likely you would not be allowed to partake in that Mission, due to Security Concerns.  If you did, it would be a serious breach of Security on someone's part.  And seriously, that would be a slap in my face.


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Dec 2006)

>John Turner was a citizen of the United Kingdom when he was Prime Minister, it didn't affect him and his dealings with the UK.

He wasn't PM for very long, and I don't recall any severely contentious issues arising between the two nations during his tenure.  The way to resolve the question is a thought experiment: what if the PM had dual US-Canadian citizenship and strong personal ties to the US?  Would that be acceptable right now, or do you suppose a sizeable fraction of Canadians might harbour reservations?  A point to remember is that the answer to the question may be time-dependent, but that is just a warning signal that the prudent course is to have senior political leaders sever their legal foreign ties.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (8 Dec 2006)

Then there's the 180 to Brad's scenario, kinda. Jennifer Granholm, Canadian citizen, first female Attorney General of Michigan, and now twice elected Governor of Michigan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Granholm


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## armyvern (8 Dec 2006)

Well, should the Liberals be surprised by these questions arising?

After all, Prime Minister Jean Chretien (Liberal) used the 1919 Nickel Resolution to force Conrad Black to renounce his Canadian Citizenship in 1999 in order to obtain British peerage and sit as a debator in the British House of Lords.

Can't have British peerage or debate in their House of Lords if you also hold Canadian citizenship? The Liberals just said no.

So why now, would the liberals presume to think that it would be OK though, to hold dual citizenship and serve as Canada's actual Prime Minister? That's quite the double standard they have.


----------



## cplcaldwell (8 Dec 2006)

> Jennifer Granholm, Canadian citizen, first female Attorney General of Michigan, and now twice elected Governor of Michigan.



... Who has taken the odd snipe from the tabloids because she is a Canadian... ... ...  and refused for a time to act on critiscisms that Michigan was a dumping ground for Tronna's garbage1



1 - Toronto and it's surrounding regions have a garbage problem. Recent NDP'ish city governments have refused to consider incineration and the Province refuses to approve another landfill in the GTA. For years Toronto, York, Peel and Durham garbage was, by varying degrees, compacted and trucked to a landfill in Michigan. Lately we have bestowed that honour on the London ON area.


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## GAP (8 Dec 2006)

Did not John Turner have dual citizenship?


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## Kirkhill (8 Dec 2006)

GAP said:
			
		

> Did not John Turner have dual citizenship?



But he only had to pledge allegiance to one person.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Dec 2006)

As far as I'm concerned John Turner should have renounced also....just because it wasn't done then shouldn't change the fact it is the right thing to do.

...and George, whether you like it or not France has always been a big part of our history too.


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## Sheerin (9 Dec 2006)

To begin with, yes I admit the "slap to the face" was a bit of hyperbole on my part.


Personally, the way I see it is, if we as a nation chose to allow our citizens to retain dual citizenship (or get dual citizenship if they can) then we should not expect anyone who may be Prime Minister to have to renounce it.  

However I can see why you'd want him to, but personally I just don't buy the argument that it could be a conflict of interest


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## a_majoor (15 Dec 2006)

Rather than argue about what country Dion wants to be PM of, lets look at his fundimental attitudes and see how they mesh with how we want 21rst Century Canada to evolve:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061215.wrreynolds15/TPStory/Business/columnists



> *Dion gets it wrong on real freedom*
> 
> NEIL REYNOLDS
> 
> ...


----------



## Zell_Dietrich (15 Dec 2006)

That article has a few intersting ideas,  and allot of ... well amusing prosing.  I scrolled back up to see who wrote it and I was pleasantly surprised when I saw it was Neil Reynolds.  

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinions/columnists/Neil+ReynoldsBio.html  Interesting man with interesting ideas.  Very interesting ideas.  I respect innovative ways of thinking,  but I wish to point out to all who read that article that there is a very strong personal bias, http://www.wclf.org/articles/3.1.3.html (gee same person?) yes it is from the Globe and Mail,  but in the "commentary" section.  Kinda of like the letter to the Editor section,  except they get paid to give their spin on things and create controversy to sell more papers.  Not impartially, objectively state the facts.

On another note,  it looks like the BQ rumblings over the Afghanistan mission are getting louder,  the NDP have already committed themselves on the issue,  if enough of the Grits jump on that band wagon,  we could see an election sooner rather than later.  It doesn't appear that  Stéphane Dion is inclined to prop up the Tories,  prepairing for an election.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061214.wdion1214/BNStory/National/home
"I don't want to rush Canadians into an election. That's not what I want, but my duty is to make sure that my party will be ready for elections"  Which to me means 'Whoo hoo we're having an election'


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## a_majoor (18 Dec 2006)

Some speculation on what the Liberals might run in the next election. Having Bob Rae write their platform is pretty hilarious, givne his record in Ontario, but then again, the Liberals only like to make promises, not keep them......

http://calgarygrit.blogspot.com/2006/12/nomination-watch.html



> Nomination Watch
> 
> 'Tis the season for election speculation. Here's a run down of some of the high profile Liberals who might have a safe seat on their Christmas wish list now that the parties are starting to gear up for the next vote.
> 
> ...



The interestign thing about this post is the level of attention given to taking NDP seats. A three way fight over the Left wing vote (the Greens are fighting for this demographic as well) should have some interesting results.


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## Kirkhill (18 Dec 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> The interestign thing about this post is the level of attention given to taking NDP seats. A three way fight over the Left wing vote (the Greens are fighting for this demographic as well) should have some interesting results.



I can't remember where I saw it Arthur but there was a column speculating about Dion and May cosying up to each other on the Environment.  You suggested earlier that a good way to handle a Liberal threat to Conservatives was for Conservatives in Liberal Friendly ridings to vote for Greens that might be drawing votes from Liberals.

Here's where I get to try out my Macchiavelli Conspiracy spurs.  ;D

Dion has adopted a "Green" Mantle which would normally put him at odds with the Greens but....
He is also moving Left drawing both Green NDPers and core Social NDPers away from Jack.  So Far So Good.

Now then, lets look at Elizabeth May.  Yes she is Green BUT she is also "Socially Conservative" judging from her position on abortion - she is opposed to it and is a strong church goer.
What happens IF those Liberals that oppose same sex marriage end up moving into May's camp - creating instant Credibility.

Dion and May then create a "Red-Green" Coalition - very popular in Europe in minority governments.

Advantage for Liberals - they trade some right wing Liberal votes for activist left wing NDP votes  which allows them to present a purer message to the electorate -while at the same time being in a position to dominate Red-Green coalition.  Advantage for Greens - presence, credibility, a seat at the table to push the environment.

Jus' whatiffin'  >


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## a_majoor (18 Dec 2006)

Kirkhill, it sounds like a plan from their side, and also works with the Liberals poaching NDP votes strategy.

So much for my forecasting, I had thought that the Liberals were due for a messy break-up between the leftists and anti-Americans (who would go the the NDP and Greens, as these parties have coherent ideologies), leaving a centerist party or rump. Based on the electoral results of the London North Centre by election, the NDP certainly have the most to fear from left wing vote splitting between the Liberals and Greens.

BTW, conservatives should always *vote* Conservative, but there is no reason they shouldn't campaign for the Greens during the election to split the leftist vote.  >

In the mean time, more of the "new" Liberals (same as the old ones...)

http://phantomobserver.com/blog/?p=442



> *The New Librano Drone Team*
> 
> Here’s the thing about being an unsuccessful Librano leadership candidate: after investing so much time cajoling money out of donors, touring the country preaching to people trying not to yawn in your face, assuring your staff that life is going to get better . . . the one thing you don’t want to happen to you is the new leader trying to shove you out the door because of all the insults you hurled at him during the campaign. No, you are Somebody Important, and because of your sacrifice you (and your subordinates) deserve important positions in the Liberal Party’s future. Once you understand that particular mindset, you can appreciate Stephane Dion’s immediate problem.
> 
> ...



Duceppe’s really out to get us indeed. The arrogent mindset of the Liberals certainly didn't change with a new leader, I suppose the sun revolves around them as well.

modified to add new link


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## Kirkhill (18 Dec 2006)

Stephane seems to have the same disease as Gilles.  His eyesight prevents him seeing past the Ottawa river.


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## Brad Sallows (18 Dec 2006)

>Dion and May then create a "Red-Green" Coalition - very popular in Europe in minority governments.

Disadvantage for Dion - Layton objects to losing his voters and cozies up to Harper on the environment.  "We work together to make a bill I like; we help keep you on the government benches."


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## wannabe SF member (18 Dec 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Dion and May then create a "Red-Green" Coalition - very popular in Europe in minority governments.
> 
> Disadvantage for Dion - Layton objects to losing his voters and cozies up to Harper on the environment.  "We work together to make a bill I like; we help keep you on the government benches."



This is very interesting, could you develop?


----------



## Kirkhill (18 Dec 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >Dion and May then create a "Red-Green" Coalition - very popular in Europe in minority governments.
> 
> Disadvantage for Dion - Layton objects to losing his voters and cozies up to Harper on the environment.  "We work together to make a bill I like; we help keep you on the government benches."



Not an impossibility Brad - especially seeing as how Harper has already given Jack some rope by letting "The Clean Air Act" go to committee before 1st reading after Jack's intervention.  

Left-Right vs Red-Green?


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## Kirkhill (18 Dec 2006)

Funny how things work out, eh?



> Layton calls for action on environment
> 
> OTTAWA (CP) - NDP Leader Jack Layton is challenging the other federal parties to push a revamped Clean Air Act through Parliament early in the new year.
> 
> ...



http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2006/12/18/2859630-cp.html

I'm willing to bet Jack will now support the Bloc on the Afghan motion seeing as how Stephane has come forward with this:



> Grits won't topple gov't over Afghanistan: Dion
> 
> By REMI NADEAU
> 
> ...



http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2006/12/18/2859470-cp.html


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## a_majoor (19 Dec 2006)

Jack is flip flopping like a fish:

http://www.dustmybroom.com/?p=5253



> *NDP: No dignity present*
> 
> NDP Leader Jack Layton today speaking out against siding with the Bloc on a non-confidence motion:
> 
> ...


----------



## schart28 (19 Dec 2006)

major flip flopping!!


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## RangerRay (19 Dec 2006)

Jack Layton really screwed up.  He could have positioned his party as a moderate social democratic party that could have squeezed the Liberals from the left.  With the Conservatives squeezing on the right, the Liberals  would have disintegrated.

However, by going extreme lefty, and Dion being the moderate social democrat, the NDP is doomed to remain a party of the loony left.

[Edited to remove offensive, not needed slam on Mr Layton.  Feel free to disagree with his views, but do it in a mature manner.]


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## Kirkhill (19 Dec 2006)

a_majoor said:
			
		

> Jack is flip flopping like a fish:
> 
> http://www.dustmybroom.com/?p=5253



That surprises the heck out of me and I didn't think I could be surprised anymore.



> our view is that it’s important to try to get some results out of this Parliament



Isn't that the same line he trotted out after Buzz and Paul cobbled together a deal on social programmes?

Methinks the fix is in on the environment as well as Afghanistan.  Maybe we'll see a tame parliament for the next year?  At least until the Liberals get a new war chest and Jack gets a new game plan?


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## Brad Sallows (19 Dec 2006)

>Disadvantage for Dion - Layton objects to losing his voters and cozies up to Harper on the environment.  "We work together to make a bill I like; we help keep you on the government benches."

>This is very interesting, could you develop?

Not very much; I'm no political strategist.  However, it is painfully obvious that if in an election the Liberals win a majority, the NDP won't be needed to play along and will be ignored.  The Libs might only win a minority, in which case the NDP might be able to exercise some influence - but only if the NDP didn't bleed most of its voters to the Libs and lose a bunch of seats.  With the CPC minority in the House as it is, the NDP has a bird in the hand.  (I haven't checked the seat counts lately and don't know for sure whether the CPC+NDP still have 155 votes.)  So it puzzles me that Layton would allow the CPC government to go down, particularly at a time when Dion appears to have his eyes on part of the NDP's turf - I should think Layton would want the NDP to visibly and loudly advertise its brand in the House (eg. with pro-environmental legislation) before allowing Canadian voters to go into an election uncertain whether the Libs or NDP best represent their interests.  There is still the possibility of the G-G asking one of the other leaders to form a government, but the seat count dynamics of a Liberal-led minority would be different - Lib+NDP alone couldn't pass anything and I think we'd wind up with a year or so of dithering while the Bloc, realizing its good fortune and that nothing of importance is likely to happen in Parliament under the new seating plan, works wholeheartedly to prepare ground for the forthcoming Quebec provincial election.  I'm sure all the party establishments know this.

This government has (so far) worked surprisingly well because any one of the three opposition parties has had enough votes to help the CPC move something along.  The Opposition collectively have enough votes to pass legislation, if it matters.  (Apparently, nothing important or useful has occurred to them.)  I want to see it hang together at least until the Quebec election is completed.


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## cplcaldwell (19 Dec 2006)

> (I haven't checked the seat counts lately and don't know for sure whether the CPC+NDP still have 155 votes.)



308 seats in the House, 154 for a majority (less the Speaker), 155 (with the Speaker).

Conservatives *123*
Liberals *103*
Bloc Québécois *51*
New Democrats *29*
Independent *2*

So Dippers and Tories (123 + 29 =152, don't quite have it) . 

Neither do fLiberals and the Dippers (103 + 29 = 132)

The Bloc puts either over the top...

The Independants are Andre Arthur (Portneuf -Cartier) and the always charming Garth Turner (Halton). 

So the balance resides with the two Indies (for the Tories, with the Speaker out, at least) _AND ALSO_ with the BQ.


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## a_majoor (19 Dec 2006)

So far Prime Minister Harper has been able to play parliament like a guitar, gaining support from various opposition parities on a retail basis in order to pass legislation. If one party won't play, another one certainly will.

Making a tactical move with the NDP for environmental legislation helps the Conservatives as well as the NDP, and perhaps some Liberals will break ranks if they want to cover themselves in an environmental blanket (assuming Dion does not support this to give the Liberals a green tinge). I have a feeling that Mr Dion and Prime Minister Harper will see things eye to eye for a while in order to achieve their various goals (rebuild the party; pass legislation, govern the nation) while freezing out the NDP, Bloc and Greens. 

Prediction: The Liberals will NOT force a spring election unless Mr Dion is fully prepared (platform, candidates, party finances, healed over party structure), since they will have potentially more to lose than to gain if they do. Let's see how Mr Dion fixes the party machinery over the winter before we revisit this idea.


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## hotelquebec9er (19 Dec 2006)

All the people I know in three separate parties (CPC, Liberal and NDP) are preparing for an early spring election at the latest.  All of which are in fairly senior local positions (save one, who worked in the PMO in the summer).


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## Edward Campbell (20 Dec 2006)

So, _le ‘tit gar_ is back.  Lock up the chequebooks!

On a serious note Marcel Massé - http://www.answers.com/topic/marcel-mass and http://www.ipac.ca/2006/speakers/biographies/marcel_mass.html (and not, under any circumstances, to be confused with blowhard Marcel Masse - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Masse ) is, indeed, on of the brightest fellows to have served in Ottawa.

I, personally thought Massé was involved in the development of some mightily wrong and wrong-headed policy initiatives but, in fairness, he may not have led those; it is more likely that he followed ministerial and prime ministerial direction – and he served under some weak ministers and prime ministers.  

Here is the good from today’s (20 Dec 06) _Globe and Mail_, shared under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061220.wliberals20/BNStory/National/home 


> Chrétien back in the loop
> 
> JANE TABER AND CAMPBELL CLARK
> From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
> ...



The good news for Dion, is Massé plus Chrétien equals excellent policy and political advice.  If he listen carefully he will learn how to shape sound policies which are in the national interest and he will learn how to get elected despite offering those same sound policies.

The bad news, for Dion, is that none of Ignatieff, Rae, Kennedy or Hall-Findlay are well known as either policy or political _master craftsmen_.  he will be hearing a cacophony of cries to spend, spend, spend on wasteful social programmes, too many of which stifle initiative, self reliance and productivity because they strengthen Canadians’ _culture of entitlement_.

Chrétien, I think will want an election ASAP.  He is, I believe of the view that anything, even a bare minority, is better than being out of power.  He will counsel Dion to borrow, borrow and borrow more to fill up the Liberal’s war chest – once in power he can find ways to have debts forgiven.  Jean Pierre Kingsley, Elections Canada and even the RCMP are _paper tigers_ - as M. Chrétien has demonstrated in the past.  He will also tell Dion that he can win without Québec – Harper did, and he can govern with the NDP as obedient serfs.


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## hotelquebec9er (20 Dec 2006)

Cretien also knows that the Liberals are polling between a strong minority and a majority government.  Quick to the polls = less chance of that fading.


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## Kirkhill (20 Dec 2006)

Is it just me or do Dion's body language and facial expression suggest something other than exuberance at being the new leader of the LPC?  His latest photographs seem to have the look of someone wondering what he has got himself in for.

Perhaps Jean and the boys have opened up the closets and delivered a few home truths to the idealist.


----------



## a_majoor (20 Dec 2006)

The CPC, NDP and Greens can spin this against Mr Dion; after all, Jean Chrétien led a government mostly remembered for corruption and lack of direction (and for people who don't remember there are legions who wil remind them). In addition, part of Mr Dion's "Dream Team" were not Liberals before the convention (and Mr Rae activley worked against the Liberals, even donating money to NDP candidates), so both internally and externally their commitment to the Liberals can always be in question.

It seems that the internal wars of the Liberal party are not over, nor, depite what many commentators wanted to believe, is the old Liberal establishment discredited or defeated by the election of Dion.

Two words for Mr Harper to use in the next election: *Ethics* and *Accountability*.


----------



## mjohnston39 (20 Dec 2006)

I would have thought the Liberals and Dion would have treated Chretien as radioactive. The Liberals bleat on about how the party is under renewal, taking 11 months to choose a leader, but they bring back the corrupt old guard/old ideas that were responsible for their loss, WTF are they thinking? 



> Two words for Mr Harper to use in the next election: Ethics and Accountability.


+1

Mike


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Dec 2006)

mjohnston39 said:
			
		

> I would have thought the Liberals and Dion would have treated Chretien as radioactive. The Liberals bleat on about how the party is under renewal, taking 11 months to choose a leader, but they bring back the corrupt old guard/old ideas that were responsible for their loss, WTF are they thinking?
> +1
> 
> Mike



Somebody bet the nose, Ignatieff, and the tail, Dion.  The longshot came in.  Whoever placed that bet is a happy feller.


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## a_majoor (22 Dec 2006)

Some more about the difference between Mr Dion and Prime Minister Harper:





> *Dion disconnect: His environmental, energy and the economic ideas Have This In Common
> Government Intervention*
> 
> WILLIAM WATSON
> ...


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## Brad Sallows (22 Dec 2006)

Some should revisit their understanding of "corporatism" to get some perspective on exactly where this sort of thinking can place one.  People think I'm kidding when I pass remarks that the French appear to be fond of fascism (political, not racial) in moderation.


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## IN HOC SIGNO (22 Dec 2006)

I think Chantal Hebert has it right in this column. Dion doesn't dare defeat the government over Afghanistan because of the Bloc's stand in that Department. Harper is walking a very clever tight rope right now and Dion could do with a little space to get settled into the job

Quebec clues point away from early federal vote

CHANTAL HEBERT

CONNECT the end-of-session dots on Parliament Hill and in Quebec City and you will find a timeline that could see Stephen Harper’s minority government stay in place beyond its second budget and possibly well into next year.

Under the configuration that is emerging in both capitals this week, Quebec Premier Jean Charest could extend the life of the Conservative government by making it politically unpalatable for the federal opposition parties to bring Harper down over the budget.

But one good turn would deserve another. In exchange, the 2007 Conservative budget would act as the springboard to the Quebec election rather than as the immediate launching pad for the next federal campaign.

First things first, though: It is now clear that the Harper government will not fall over an early vote about the Afghan mission. If the Bloc Québécois does make good on Gilles Duceppe’s recent threat to table a no-confidence motion on the issue early next year, it will likely find itself isolated in its censure of the government.

Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion said Monday that he would not support a Bloc motion on Afghanistan. The NDP is reserving judgment. It has not escaped the notice of its federal opponents that the Bloc has left a trail of blood over the course of its flip-flops on the resolution dealing with Quebec’s national character. The other parties are not at all eager to help heal Duceppe’s self-inflicted wounds.

In a more general way, the New Democrats are not in the mood for a quick election. If Jack Layton can find a way to avoid toppling Harper on the budget, he probably will. Between now and then, though, Layton will be getting a lot of conflicting free advice on the best way to preserve his party from possible annihilation. Some will argue that he needs to buy time at all costs while others will say that he cannot afford to be seen as extending the life of the Conservative government even by a day, let alone half a year or more. 

The NDP should find solace in the fact that it may not be the only opposition party that faces a gut-wrenching choice at budget time. At a year-end news conference on Monday, Charest said he wanted to see the federal budget before calling a provincial election. But the premier has already put his government in campaign mode and he is contemplating sending Quebec to the polls as soon as possible.

Coincidentally, the word on Parliament Hill is that Harper is now looking at a February date for his budget. Charest expects the federal budget to include a good enough deal on the fiscal balance to give him the momentum to go into a campaign. If that turns out to be the case, Charest would move quickly, possibly within hours of Harper’s budget.

Faced with a snap Quebec election call, Duceppe would be hard pressed to bring down the minority Conservative government. There is only one sovereigntist election machine and the PQ and the Bloc cannot use it at the same time.

Dion would also find himself in a bind. A Liberal crusade against a Harper budget that was embraced wholeheartedly by Charest would pit Dion against the federalist premier of Quebec at the very time when the latter is fighting for re-election. To all intents and purposes, he would end up in the same camp as the Bloc and the PQ.

Such a contrary Liberal alignment would serve the Conservatives well in their own subsequent re-election campaign in Quebec, as would the battle fatigue of sovereigntist troops. Under the best-case scenario for Harper, Duceppe would have to jump from a morale-depleting, lost provincial campaign into a federal one. Thus, if Charest won, his victory could open the way for a one-two election punch, with a federal vote taking place on the heels of the Quebec one. 

More than ever next year, Charest and Harper’s fates will be inextricably linked. Both their futures could hinge on the next federal budget. It has never been clearer that Harper needs to help Charest to help himself. But that also involves a big leap of faith on the prime minister’s part. He has to believe that a favourable federal budget will be enough for Charest to come from behind and beat long odds to secure a second mandate.

Chantal Hébert is national affairs columnist for the Toronto Star.


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## Kirkhill (22 Dec 2006)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> Some should revisit their understanding of "corporatism" to get some perspective on exactly where this sort of thinking can place one.  People think I'm kidding when I pass remarks that the French appear to be fond of fascism (political, not racial) in moderation.



I would recommend again, for those that haven't read it, "Pierre Trudeau: The Young Years".  It goes a long way to explaining the underlying mindset of the Quebecois elite and that of much of Europe.

My personal favourite statistic is the comparison between the number of public libraries in Ontario in the 1940s (>400) versus Quebec (<10).  That wasn't a result of federal policies or anglo policies.  That was a result of conscious decisions by the "elite".


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## a_majoor (12 Jan 2007)

Well, the ghost of Christmas Past has come calling for Mr Dion; I wonder how many other people from the Chreitien/Maurice Strong/Power Corporation camp have made sure Mr Dion has their phone number and "invited" him to call for advice. Given the length of time he served in the previous government, I doubt he will need much prompting.......

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070110/national/chretien_passports&printer=1



> New Liberal leader can call for advice any time, but Chretien won't meddle
> Wed Jan 10, 7:06 PM
> 
> By Mike Oliveira
> ...



The highlighted line gave me the biggest laugh, after all, it was Chreitien and his gobvernment (including the hapless Mr Dion) which fought against the idea of a common North American Perimeter which would have allowed for free passage internally......


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## a_majoor (21 Jan 2007)

More evidence the Liberals made a big mistake:

http://jojourn.blogspot.com/2007/01/steffis-imaginary-friend.html



> *Steffi's Imaginary Friend *
> 
> Dust My Broom has discovered a profile from the Globe http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=254e12c6-b309-431f-91e0-43cc34291a7a that could shed some light on *Stephane Dion's inability to remember certain important events, such as anything at all to do with Adscam and more recently the alleged plan to expand production in the Alberta oilsands under his watch as Environment Minister during the Martin government.*
> 
> ...



The only thing that makes sense is Mr Dion is a placeholder until the powers behind the curtain have Justin Trudeau prepped to run for office and then leadership of the Liberal party.


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## a_majoor (5 Feb 2007)

The Ottawa Citizen weighs in:

http://emilvargas.blogspot.com/2007/02/great-article-by-ottawa-citizen-on.html



> *Why Stephane Dion is unfit to lead this country*
> 
> Randall Denley
> The Ottawa Citizen
> ...


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## larry Strong (5 Feb 2007)

He invited him in

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070201/justin_trudeau_070201/20070201/


> Dion OKs Justin Trudeau to run in next election
> Updated Thu. Feb. 1 2007 11:08 PM ET
> 
> Robert Fife, CTV News
> ...


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## warspite (5 Feb 2007)

And so it begins.....

Wonder how long till I got to start a "Justin Trudeau Win's Liberal Leadership Race" thread...


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## hotelquebec9er (5 Feb 2007)

I would say under 2 years.  Dion's just another Turner.


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## Boxkicker (5 Feb 2007)

hotelquebec9er said:
			
		

> Cretien also knows that the Liberals are polling between a strong minority and a majority government.  Quick to the polls = less chance of that fading.



  it has been shown so far to me tha with Stpane Dion as leader of the LIBS, Chretien will be the PM again only behind the scenes. I just hope Ontario voters are sick of lawywers and intelectuals from Quebec calling the shots.


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## a_majoor (14 Feb 2007)

Another assessment:





> *Dion's sinking fortunes
> *
> John Turley-Ewart, National Post
> Published: Wednesday, February 14, 2007
> ...


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## a_majoor (19 Feb 2007)

More opinions about the new leader:

http://www.bloggingtories.ca/btFrameset.php?URL=http://www.politicalstaples.com/2007/02/18/what_does_he_really_think.html&title=What%20does%20he%20really%20think



> *What does he really think*
> 
> Man, when Charles Adler sets his sights on someone he is deadly.
> 
> ...


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## IN HOC SIGNO (19 Feb 2007)

sigh...it looks like we're back to the polls soon.  : Let's hope someone gets a majority so we can have a 4-5 year break. From the CF point of view I think we'd be better with Mr Harper


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## retiredgrunt45 (20 Feb 2007)

If Dions poll ratings stay like this, we'll have another minority.



> Stephane Dion's honeymoon with voters may be over. A new poll suggests fewer than one fifth of Canadians think he would make a good prime minister, as the parties gear up for a possible spring election.



But again Harper still has to convince voters that he's up to the job, long term. The votes are split almost even between Dion and Harper in Quebec and Ontario.  

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/TopStories/ContentPosting.aspx?newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20070219%2fcounsel_poll_070219&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V2&showbyline=True


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