# Canadian Colors... Flag or no flag in Afghanistan



## Dragoonian (2 Mar 2006)

I am sure many of you have already read the recent news regarding the order handed down by the US commander in Afghanistan regarding the lowering of national flags and the flying of the Afghanistan flags on all coalition bases. If not here is the link:

http://dgpa-dgap.mil.ca/DGPA/ntl/060302/f00261aa.htm

Hopefully it works.

I am curious as to what most folks think regarding this. At first I guess the argument could be made that it would be a small gesture not even worth discussing, however I find we in Canada / North America tend to take small gestures for granted. In my experience many "Culturaly Sensitive" nations hold their visual national identifiers in high regards as many (not all) of them also have religious and or traditional affiliation to the nations structure. With this in mind what kind of message would the coalition leadership be sending these folks if we are willing to lower our own colors and replace them with theirs.  Forgive me if I offend anyone I am not trying to push any buttons or even suggest that Canada is bowing down to the Afghan government. I do however have a concern in that by doing what we think is "culturaly sensitive" we may be showing the population there that our Flag (which to the majority of Canadians represents Freedom, Diversity, Family Value, Unity) can easily be put aside for the good of the nation we are helping. If so then what do you say to a local who would view us as a people who are willing to set aside our own traditions and values?  As a Canadian I believe we can show our support by flying the Afghanistan Flag beside the Canadian flag to show unity and support for their cause without sacrificing the pride of flying our colors. Having been overseas most of you understand thata not every day is the same, and those days were home seems farther away than most others, it would be nice to look up and see our national emblem greet us. I would venture that the flying of both national flags would send a greater message to the taliban that there are other nations who will no longer stand for abuses and mistreatment of human kind. 

My final point on this is what do you say to the young soldier in your coy, troop, flight, who is a practicing Christian, Budhist, Hindu, Free Nation who cannot express his time of worship due to the fact he may insult a local... short story, I was posted to the persian Gulf region about 3 years ago and a soldier prayed over his meal. No big deal right? To each their own right? We need to be culturaly sensitive do we not? So what? he prayed before eating. Well he was approached and asked to stop doing that as the locals in the Kitchen ( some were muslims) took great offense to this. The member stopped out of fear of being expatriated. I guess I can be called bias as I am a practicing Christian, however, I have my faith and a right to practice it. I understand being  in a muslim nation this activity would bring me risk I would be willing to take for myself, I would definately consider the repercussions to the rest of the soldiers in the organization, but how far should the pendulum swing? Thoughts? 

"It goes back to the cultural sensitivity training that we did back in <Canada>. This is not <Canada>, this is the
 Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (and) we've got to respect their cultures and traditions," Brig.-Gen. Fraser said.


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## Pte_Martin (2 Mar 2006)

For us that are at home and  cannot access the DIN from home could you post the article for us?


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## Michael Dorosh (2 Mar 2006)

Dragoonian said:
			
		

> Having been overseas most of you understand thata not every day is the same, and those days were home seems farther away than most others, it would be nice to look up and see our national emblem greet us. .



a) You could look at the left shoulder of the man next to you and see the Canadian flag plain as day.
b) National flags are usually flown on conquered territory - we're there to help the Afghans, not conquer them.  The US used the same rationale in Iraq.  As comforting as the sight of a flag might be to a soldier in camp, I think a stronger message is sent to the locals.  I understand that they too should see the Canadian flag as a friendly symbol, but I think it is a little overt.  I say the order to fly only the Afghan flag is sound.


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## Jaxson (2 Mar 2006)

Why not fly both flags? Fly a Afghan flag higher And larger in shape then the canadian flag, it will give a strong message saying Hey we here, but this is still your country.


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## Armymedic (2 Mar 2006)

I agree with the directive, because it makes sense. There were too many other nations flags flying over too many camps in Kabul.

They still allow a Cdn flag over the memorial, which in my books would be the only one I would be upset over them removing.

http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=7405c03c-ead2-409c-adc7-ca9a56410220


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## Bruce Monkhouse (2 Mar 2006)

Hearts and minds, folks.....


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## AmmoTech90 (2 Mar 2006)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> National flags are usually flown on conquered territory - we're there to help the Afghans, not conquer them.  The US used the same rationale in Iraq.  As comforting as the sight of a flag might be to a soldier in camp, I think a stronger message is sent to the locals.  I understand that they too should see the Canadian flag as a friendly symbol, but I think it is a little overt.  I say the order to fly only the Afghan flag is sound.



Except at every embassy, and they aren't conquered territory.  Admittedly they are sovereign territory.  However countries trade offices are not sovereign and flags are flown there.  Ex-pats often fly the flag of their land of birth.  At sports events, even if sometimes there are problems with orientation.  Saying that the usual time a foreign flag is flown is after conquest is absolutely incorrect.
The flag is a symbol of the official presence of a country.  Every UN mission I've been on, the Canadian flag was up before someone dug out a UN one.  If we are not willing to fly our flag, or the host nation is not happy enough with our presence not to have a problem with it, then I believe we are being disingenuous and trying to duck behind something akin to the "peacekeeping" mantle or we are not really wanted.  If it is a legal order then I guess we have to follow it, but I would much rather hear soldiers complain about it than make up excuses about why it is reasonable.
Hearts and minds is all well and good.  But if we win one heart by being Canadian and that person cannot walk by our camp and tell his friend, "Hey, those are the people who helped me out." is it really a benefit.  And those who are going to target us, are going to target us.  It's been said enough on this site that to the enemy a westerner in a brown uniform is a westerner in a brown uniform, regardless of the flag on their shoulder.

D


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## FredDaHead (2 Mar 2006)

Jaxson said:
			
		

> Why not fly both flags? Fly a Afghan flag higher And larger in shape then the canadian flag, it will give a strong message saying Hey we here, but this is still your country.



Someone more knowledgeable might correct me on this, but I believe no country is allowed to have it's flag flewn higher than another country's, except for occasions like the Olympics and such. I'm not 100% sure on this, though.


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## -Sig- (3 Mar 2006)

I can understand the reason why some people think there is a need to  remove foreing national flag to show support to the government of that country. But after I read the 2nd article. I fail to see why individual unit flag need to be taken down. In my opinion they are 2 different kind of flag.


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## Redeye (3 Mar 2006)

Frederik G said:
			
		

> Someone more knowledgeable might correct me on this, but I believe no country is allowed to have it's flag flewn higher than another country's, except for occasions like the Olympics and such. I'm not 100% sure on this, though.



Nope.

There are rules about protocol for displaying flags (orders and heights), but this isn't one of them.


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## FredDaHead (3 Mar 2006)

Redeye said:
			
		

> Nope.
> 
> There are rules about protocol for displaying flags (orders and heights), but this isn't one of them.



Aw crap, and I thought I was right, for once. I'll have to look that stuff up, though.


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## RangerRay (3 Mar 2006)

I think it would have been appropriate to have both flags flown, with the Afghan one in the place of honour.


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## jmackenzie_15 (3 Mar 2006)

Jaxson said:
			
		

> Why not fly both flags? Fly a Afghan flag higher And larger in shape then the canadian flag, it will give a strong message saying Hey we here, but this is still your country.



Ditto.


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## jbeach95 (6 Mar 2006)

Flag etiquette dictates that the National Flag of Canada should not be "displayed in a position inferior to any other flag..." and that the "National Flag is flown at all federal government buildings, airports, and military bases and establishments within and outside Canada."

See http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/etiquette/2_e.cfm

I do realize that is says that the Canadian flag takes precedence over others in Canada, but I think that this might also apply to Canadian military bases outside Canada.

...Just pointing out certain obstacles to the proposed changes in how the flags are flown.


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