# Azerbaijani and Armenian military Clashes



## CougarKing (22 Nov 2009)

The return of conflict to the Caucasus region?



> *Azerbaijan threatens force over Nagorno-Karabakh*
> 
> BAKU, Azerbaijan — *President Ilham Aliyev of Azerbaijan said Saturday his nation may resort to military force if talks with Armenia on resolving a long-standing territorial dispute produce no result.*
> Aliyev said he expects to hold talks next week with his Armenian counterpart, Serge Sarkisian, on resolving the dispute over Nagorno-Karabakh. "If that meeting fails to produce result, our hopes for negotiations will vanish," Aliyev said during a meeting with Azerbaijani refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh.
> ...


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## The Bread Guy (2 Apr 2016)

S.M.A. said:
			
		

> The return of conflict to the Caucasus region?


A few years later, maybe ...


> Dozens of people have been killed in clashes between Azerbaijan and Armenia in the disputed Caucasus region of Nagorno-Karabakh.
> 
> Armenia said 18 ethnic-Armenian soldiers had died in the fighting, among the worst in two decades.
> 
> ...





map source​More on the latest unpleasantness via Google News here.


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Apr 2016)

This has a Balkan like potential for drawing in other powers.


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## The Bread Guy (4 Apr 2016)

Colin P said:
			
		

> This has a Balkan like potential for drawing in other powers.


Pomeranian Grenadiers, prepare to move?   ;D


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## MilEME09 (28 Sep 2020)

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/9/28/armenia-azerbaijan-clashes-continue-live-news?utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook

For those not tracking, the heaviest fighting since 1994 has broken out, what seemed to be a small scale clash has escalated into a larger conflict between the two countries, while most are calling for diplomacy, turkey has picked sides and has been reported to be involved militarily.


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## Colin Parkinson (28 Sep 2020)

Yes getting nasty, reserve called up, we have friends with relatives on the Azerbaijani side who are worried sick. Some video of AD systems being taken out which is interesting considering the high quality of the video.


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## YZT580 (28 Sep 2020)

suggest the Jerusalem post to find out what is what from a 'not in the U.S. perspective. Here is one sample:https://www.jpost.com/international/what-azerbaijan-wants-from-the-conflict-with-armenia-643748


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## daftandbarmy (28 Sep 2020)

YZT580 said:
			
		

> suggest the Jerusalem post to find out what is what from a 'not in the U.S. perspective. Here is one sample:https://www.jpost.com/international/what-azerbaijan-wants-from-the-conflict-with-armenia-643748



This was interesting:

"Azeri sources say that the army decided to launch a major “counter-offensive” on Sunday along the entire front. This included using tanks, UAVs, artillery and TOS rocket launchers. Azerbaijan is a pioneering army when it comes to using UAVs tactically and strategically. It has used them to suppress enemy anti-aircraft units and videos shown on Turkish TV show numerous strikes on these units. This appears to illustrate that the drones are successful. Reporters earlier this year say Azerbaijan acquired Israel’s SkyStriker drones. According to the Drone Data Book published earlier this year the Azeris also have the Aerostar and Orbiter 3 drone and Harop, Heron TP, Hermes 450 and Hermes 950, all from Israel. It also has the Turkish-made Bayraktar TB2."

Good thing the CAF is keeping up with the Central Asian Republics in the 'attack drone' field. Or not


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## FM07 (28 Sep 2020)

Very interesting developments here. I believe Iran by proxy is involved on the Azerbaijani side. Do you guys think the US led hegemony will back the Armenians, possibly inflaming already strained tensions in the area?


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## Donald H (28 Sep 2020)

FMoore7 said:
			
		

> Very interesting developments here. I believe Iran by proxy is involved on the Azerbaijani side. Do you guys think the US led hegemony will back the Armenians, possibly inflaming already strained tensions in the area?



No for Trump.
More likely yes for Biden.


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## FM07 (28 Sep 2020)

Upon further reading, it sounds like Iran exerts no small influence over Armenia as well. Interesting. Some articles I have read indicate Iran could play the 'mediator' role. This could certainly get dicey.


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## MilEME09 (28 Sep 2020)

FMoore7 said:
			
		

> Upon further reading, it sounds like Iran exerts no small influence over Armenia as well. Interesting. Some articles I have read indicate Iran could play the 'mediator' role. This could certainly get dicey.



This is a conflict that can spill over easily. Turkey has been against Armenia since the sawn of time pretty much so the fact it has been antagonistic in this situation, emboldening Azerbaijan's choice to escalate the situation. This will get bloodied quickly before any solution is found.


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## MarkOttawa (28 Sep 2020)

Keep in mind that Russia is very pro-Armenian (Orthodox Christian churches and all that) and could well retaliate (and also in Syria) if Turkey's clear support for fellow-Turk Azeris gets too serious--there are reports that Turks are sending significant numbers of Syrian mercenaries to Azebaijan, by air via Iran it seems (apparently US got Georgia to block its air space).
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/9/28/azerbaijan-denies-turkey-sent-it-fighters-from-syria

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/28/syrian-rebel-fighters-prepare-to-deploy-to-azerbaijan-in-sign-of-turkeys-ambition

And note that besides being on opposite sides on Nagorno-Karabakh and in Syria, in Libya Turkey heavily backs Tripoli gov't and Russia the rebel Haftar--reports of both sides sending their Syrian mercenaries there plus serious equipment.

Mark
Ottawa


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## Lumber (28 Sep 2020)

Canada has appeared to have closer relations with Azerbaijan than with Armenia. There's even a company called AZCAN that is a joint Azerbaijanian-Canadian defence contractor.


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## MilEME09 (29 Sep 2020)

Legally, international law seems to be on Azerbaijan's side, the UNSC in the 90s passed a resolution calling for Armenia to withdraw, if Armenia really did strike first here then Azerbaijan can simply claim while acting in self defense it will enforce international law to restore it's territorial integrity.


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## MilEME09 (29 Sep 2020)

https://globalnews.ca/news/7366059/armenias-defense-ministry-warplane-shot-down-turkish-fighter-jet/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalNews


Armenia is claiming Turkish F-16's engaged and downed a SU-25 today. Turkey denys this, but I would put money on them have actually done it. Major escalation for the region which could signal Ankara is more willing to get involved. I would love to know what is going on regarding Turkish troop movements right now. If brigades start moving to the Armenian border, I would bet you would see turkish troops cross the border within a few weeks.


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## MarkOttawa (29 Sep 2020)

Start of  good background article by Mark Mackinnon (excellent reporter) in _Globe and Mail_:



> Why is the ‘frozen conflict’ between Azerbaijan and Armenia heating up now?
> _For years, the Nagorno-Karabakh region has been a bone of contention between two bordering countries, but now it risks becoming a new front in a war of influence between Turkey and Russia_
> 
> For more than a quarter-century, the mountainous region of Nagorno-Karabakh has been listed as the site of one of the world’s “frozen conflicts,” a place where the warring parties, Armenia and Azerbaijan, have largely stopped fighting – even though the grievances never went away.
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## MilEME09 (30 Sep 2020)

https://in.reuters.com/article/us-armenia-azerbaijan-russia-lavrov/russias-lavrov-says-moscow-willing-to-host-azeri-and-armenian-counterparts-for-talks-idUSKBN26L33G

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN26L10T

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/09/30/armenia-azerbaijan-reject-russia-mediated-talks-as-fighting-rages-over-karabakh-a71599

Both sides have rejected diplomacy to solve the current situation indicating both want a military solution to settle this once and for all. Armenia has also ruled out calling in Russia and the CIS for assistance, I feel this may change if Turkey gets more involved. With Turkey further isolating it self from NATO on it's positions on various issues, one must start to wonder if the alliance really needs to cut Turkey loose before it is too late.


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## daftandbarmy (30 Sep 2020)

An interesting timing coincidence between this conflict and the start of Azerbaijan's energy shipments to Europe:

Energy markets shrug off Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict, for now
By JULIAN LEE on 9/28/2020

(Bloomberg) --With weeks to go before Azerbaijan is due to start piping gas to the European Union, a decades-old conflict with its Eurasian neighbor Armenia is flaring up again.

So far, oil and gas markets have yet to be spooked by the conflict -- perhaps because global energy demand was drastically reduced by the Covid-19 pandemic, meaning producers the world over have spare capacity should the worst-case scenario arise -- the bombing of the pipeline and an ensuing environmental disaster. In normal times, a material disruption would likely boost energy prices.

The conflict centers on the Nagorno-Karabakh region claimed by both countries. In theory, it has the potential to disrupt oil and gas flows from Azerbaijan, since export pipelines from the Caspian Sea region’s second-biggest crude producer run within just 10 miles of its border with Armenia.

Azerbaijan exports the vast majority of its crude oil through the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline to an export terminal on Turkey’s Mediterranean coast. Additional volumes are pumped to the Black Sea port of Supsa in Georgia. Natural gas exports flow through the South Caucasus pipeline to Georgia and Turkey, and are due to reach EU markets later this year. All three run in parallel through Azerbaijan.

Most of the oil and gas pumped through the lines is produced by two consortia led by BP Plc, which lift oil from the Azeri, Chirag and Gunashli fields and gas from the Shah Deniz deposit in the Caspian Sea. Small volumes of crude from Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan on the eastern shore of the Caspian are also pumped through the BTC pipeline. It has a capacity of 1.2 million barrels a day, but carries less than half that in practice. Another 80,000 barrels a day flow to Supsa.

Azerbaijan also pumps gas through an export pipeline that runs alongside its oil conduits. In 2019, the country delivered 9.2 billion cubic meters (325 billion cubic feet) of gas to Turkey through the South Caucasus Pipeline. That line is part of the 4,000 km, U.S.-backed, Southern Gas Corridor, which cost BP and partners around $40 billion to build. Azerbaijan is due to begin gas deliveries to Italy and Greece through the line next month. Those flows could meet abut 3% of the EU’s gas imports, although the bloc has ample sources of alternative supplies.

While the proximity of the pipelines to the border puts them at potential risk, Armenia has not attacked the lines during previous escalations in the conflict between the two countries, which has been simmering for almost 30 years.

Importantly, the coronavirus has led to a surplus of oil and gas production capacity worldwide. Oil demand will be 7.1% lower this quarter than it was a year earlier, according to the International Energy Agency. Nations including Saudi Arabia and Russia responded to that weakness by pumping less crude, but if called for, they could easily bring those barrels back onto the market.

Back in June, the IEA was predicting a 4% drop in gas consumption this year, twice the decline seen during the 2008-09 financial crisis. That only exacerbated a glut that already existed because of excess supply.

Hard to Hit

Buried up to two meters below the ground, the pipelines wouldn’t make easy targets, and Armenia would certainly be blamed for any environmental damage resulting from a breach.

In 2008, Georgia’s National Security Council claimed the BTC line was targeted by Russian missiles, an allegation Russia denied. An earlier attack on the line in Turkey, claimed by the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, closed the line for several weeks in the same year.

Azerbaijan has few alternatives to ship its crude, and none for its gas. Some oil could be sent for export via a pipeline to Russia, but that would depend on being able to strike a deal with its northern neighbor, which has traditionally sided with Armenia in the conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh.

Oil markets, though, don’t seem particularly worried by any potential disruption to exports of Azeri crude, with Brent crude little changed on the day and volumes low. Natural gas futures are similarly becalmed.

https://www.worldoil.com/news/2020/9/28/energy-markets-shrug-off-azerbaijan-armenia-conflict-for-now


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## Czech_pivo (30 Sep 2020)

Johnny Turk should never wonder why they will never be a part of the EU.


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## FM07 (30 Sep 2020)

Excuse my ignorance, but with Turkey being as authoritarian/autocratic as they are, why exactly are they in NATO to this day? Perhaps getting on the wrong side of the current conflict could be the final straw?


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## Good2Golf (30 Sep 2020)

FMoore7 said:
			
		

> Excuse my ignorance, but with Turkey being as authoritarian/autocratic as they are, why exactly are they in NATO to this day? Perhaps getting on the wrong side of the current conflict could be the final straw?



Unchallenged access by NATO to the Black Sea.


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## MarkOttawa (30 Sep 2020)

Portugal was a 1949 founding member of NATO when it was a dictatorship under Salazar. Azores and all that. NATO's "democratic" basis has always been, er, flexible.
https://medium.com/history-of-yesterday/salazar-the-forgotten-dictator-b9f8de963a7b

Mark
Ottawa


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## FM07 (30 Sep 2020)

Thanks for the insight guys, makes sense. Interesting read about Salazar, very much in the mold of Franco.

I read this one too: https://www.cp24.com/world/azerbaijan-armenia-no-closer-to-ending-clashes-after-4-days-1.5126014

Sounds like Macron of France would like to start talks with the parties involved and the USA. Will be watching this unfold.


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## MilEME09 (30 Sep 2020)

https://www.funker530.com/azerbaijani-kamikaze-drones-armenian/

Some interesting use of drones/ loitering munitions to strike Armenian Targets. No video of the after effects sadly by enough charge and a tank with hatches open could kill the crew.


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Sep 2020)

Some more here, warning some are graphic

Sending our military into a modern combat zone with the level of AD we possess is almost criminal. You need multiple layers to protect the Short range stuff, but you still need the short range as well.

 https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/azerbaijan-publishes-scenes-from-massive-attack-on-armenian-forces/


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## FJAG (30 Sep 2020)

The above article about loitering munitions led me to an interesting Azerbaijani military music video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKA9xJx-NKg&feature=youtu.be

 :cheers:


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## PuckChaser (30 Sep 2020)

Near peer border clashes and peace talks? I guess I'll make an appointment for my blue helmet cover tomorrow, peacekeeping is back!!!


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## MilEME09 (30 Sep 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Near peer border clashes and peace talks? I guess I'll make an appointment for my blue helmet cover tomorrow, peacekeeping is back!!!



Considering neither side wants to talk, this would be aggressive peace making, and would turn very bloody if we got involved.


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## OldSolduer (1 Oct 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Considering neither side wants to talk, this would be aggressive peace making, and would turn very bloody if we got involved.



Yeah been there and it not much fun.


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Oct 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> The above article about loitering munitions led me to an interesting Azerbaijani military music video.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKA9xJx-NKg&feature=youtu.be
> 
> :cheers:



Weaponized MTV

We would be sitting ducks getting between those two armies with zero air defense.


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## MarkOttawa (1 Oct 2020)

Canadian exports to Turkey may actually have fairly important role in the fight:

1) 





> Ottawa won’t say whether it let military sales to Turkey slip through arms embargo
> 
> The federal government is refusing to divulge whether it’s been allowing exports of target-acquisition systems to a Turkish drone maker to slip through a ban on military exports to the NATO ally that’s been in place for nearly one year.
> 
> ...



2) 





> Drones playing big role in Nagorno-Karabakh fight
> _Unmanned suicide drones and loitering munitions are being deployed to lethal effect in Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict_
> 
> Drones are playing a big role in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan. Israeli, Turkish, Russian and locally produced drones and loitering munitions figure in the conflict and account for most losses especially by Armenia, which has lost armored vehicles, multiple rocket launchers and air defense platforms.
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## FJAG (1 Oct 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Weaponized MTV
> 
> We would be sitting ducks getting between those two armies with zero air defense.



I looked up both armies on Wikipedia. Armenia's gear is mostly Soviet era but their air defence, artillery and anti-armour weaponry would make life very tough for us. Azerbaijan, on the other hand, has significantly more modern equipment supplementing their Soviet gear which would probably take us out fairly quickly.

Interesting considering that each of their defence budgets are a mere fraction of ours. (I presume the Soviet gear is all leftovers from when they were part of the USSR.) Both make use of conscription and reserve service which keeps full-time force personnel costs low.

 :cheers:


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## MilEME09 (1 Oct 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I looked up both armies on Wikipedia. Armenia's gear is mostly Soviet era but their air defence, artillery and anti-armour weaponry would make life very tough for us. Azerbaijan, on the other hand, has significantly more modern equipment supplementing their Soviet gear which would probably take us out fairly quickly.
> 
> Interesting considering that each of their defence budgets are a mere fraction of ours. (I presume the Soviet gear is all leftovers from when they were part of the USSR.) Both make use of conscription and reserve service which keeps full-time force personnel costs low.
> 
> :cheers:



all it would take is 1 battery of TOS-1's to cause a significant chunk of losses to our forces, those things scare me for sure.


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## CBH99 (1 Oct 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I looked up both armies on Wikipedia. Armenia's gear is mostly Soviet era but their air defence, artillery and anti-armour weaponry would make life very tough for us. Azerbaijan, on the other hand, has significantly more modern equipment supplementing their Soviet gear which would probably take us out fairly quickly.
> 
> Interesting considering that each of their defence budgets are a mere fraction of ours. (I presume the Soviet gear is all leftovers from when they were part of the USSR.) Both make use of conscription and reserve service which keeps full-time force personnel costs low.
> 
> :cheers:




Ya don't say?   8)   

And when it comes to Soviet and Russian equipment, I think sometimes we forget in the collective West that bullets and explosions hurt.  Killing the other side & taking away their ability to operate, or even literally exist, wins wars.


We value fancy, laser guided, composite this & that.  And for good reason.  But like MilEME said, a battery of TOS-1's will absolutely ruin your day.  (Or any other outdated system that can still rain hellfire on us)


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## MilEME09 (2 Oct 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> Ya don't say?   8)
> 
> And when it comes to Soviet and Russian equipment, I think sometimes we forget in the collective West that bullets and explosions hurt.  Killing the other side & taking away their ability to operate, or even literally exist, wins wars.
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter how dated the system is, if it can kill your enemy, it works.


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## Gunnar (2 Oct 2020)

> Doesn't matter how dated the system is, if it can kill your enemy, it works.



Even the Mark 1 Rock.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Oct 2020)

Gunnar said:
			
		

> Even the Mark 1 Rock.



As was proven earlier this year in another part of Asia https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53071913


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## MilEME09 (2 Oct 2020)

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/world/armenia-ready-to-talk-ceasefire-amid-azerbaijan-clashes-1.5129769?cid=sm%3Atrueanthem%3Actvnews%3Apost&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook

After over 4 days of fighting, Armenia says they are ready to talk. I wonder what prompted the change of stance? Perhaps their actual casualty numbers are much higher then reported.

https://www.funker530.com/azerbaijani-strike-kill-count/

With video like this, no wonder, thats a lot of casualties.


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## FJAG (3 Oct 2020)

New Azerbaijani music video showing their military gear.

https://videos.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2020/10/02/958489223369374000/640x360_MP4_958489223369374000.mp4

 :cheers:


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## Humphrey Bogart (3 Oct 2020)

The use of RPA's in this conflict has hopefully opened the eyes of some planners in Ottawa.  Air Defence is an essential capability and we may be in a World of hurt the next time we go hot in to a theatre.

Truthfully, some of this technology scares the absolute crap out of me.


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## YZT580 (3 Oct 2020)

doesn't seem to matter much whether you are dug in or not.  Most of the units destroyed were protected by earthen berms.  Drones are totally re-defining tactics and it won't matter who controls the sky unless you can defend against numerous small, manoeuvrable targets: low cost numbers will overwhelm high-tech.


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## FJAG (3 Oct 2020)

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> The use of RPA's in this conflict has hopefully opened the eyes of some planners in Ottawa.  Air Defence is an essential capability and we may be in a World of hurt the next time we go hot in to a theatre.
> 
> Truthfully, some of this technology scares the absolute crap out of me.



Doesn't it just gall you to realize that countries with a defence budget of 2 billion or so per year have more effective capabilities than we do?

 :brickwall:


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## Colin Parkinson (3 Oct 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Doesn't it just gall you to realize that countries with a defence budget of 2 billion or so per year have more effective capabilities than we do?
> 
> :brickwall:



Yea but i bet you their diversity count is off and like no one has attended any Harassment and Diversity courses or other mandatory courses we require.


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## MarkOttawa (4 Oct 2020)

Video--Israeli IAI "Mini Harpy Loitering Munitions System" (suicide drones) apparently being used by Azerbaijan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBmhJ-jrzrc

Mark
Ottawa


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## daftandbarmy (4 Oct 2020)

MarkOttawa said:
			
		

> Video--Israeli IAI "Mini Harpy Loitering Munitions System" (suicide drones) apparently being used by Azerbaijan:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBmhJ-jrzrc
> 
> ...



Very cool! Can we have a few dozen of those please?

While looking at that, I found this link. In 2018, it seems that someone predicted a 'draw' between the two:

Armenia vs. Azerbaijan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA3_aTkr-H4


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## Donald H (4 Oct 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Very cool! Can we have a few dozen of those please?
> 
> While looking at that, I found this link. In 2018, it seems that someone predicted a 'draw' between the two:
> 
> ...



A draw it likely will be because they are just proxies for the major powers. And M.A.D. is going to keep us safe for another 75 years if we're lucky.


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Oct 2020)

At :41 seconds right after the explosion you can see a drone cross over the screen 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jZuNR0WSxY&feature=emb_logo


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## Infanteer (4 Oct 2020)

I'll offer a bit of a different point of view on what we're seeing.

The drone footage of Azeri kills of Armenian vehicles here indicates the "amateur" nature of the players in this conflict - at least with one side.  Sure most of the platforms are "dug in" with some earthen berms, but they are in the wide open with no overhead concealment or protection.  Watching 6 minutes of footage reveals a very low level of sophistication in defensive preparation.  The "tank plinking" hearkens back to the U.S. picking off Iraqi Divisions one AFV at a time in 1991.  In fact, a good dive into the history books reveals that this has been a constant of modern warfare since its inception in the First World War.  By 1917, anything that wasn't dug in and *concealed from the air* would be picked up by aerial observation and destroyed by fires (in this case, artillery barrages).

To me, this means that UAVs/UAS/RPS (whatever we want to go with) are not a revolutionary game changer, nor do they "scare the crap out of me."  They are simply the next step in the evolution of the reconnaissance bi-plane and its tactical role, and offer no more or no less than was offered in 1917.  And just like effective countermeasures are designed for the bi-plane, effective countermeasures for UAVs will undoubtedly ensure that offensive/defensive balance is achieved.

It goes to show - you can have a small defence budget and spend it on some neat Russian equipment, but if you don't know how to use it very well, it all ends up as scrap steel.  Materiel is relatively easy to procure and replace - professional warfighters are not.


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## PuckChaser (4 Oct 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> To me, this means that UAVs/UAS/RPS (whatever we want to go with) are not a revolutionary game changer, nor do they "scare the crap out of me."  They are simply the next step in the evolution of the reconnaissance bi-plane and its tactical role, and offer no more or no less than was offered in 1917.  And just like effective countermeasures are designed for the bi-plane, effective countermeasures for UAVs will undoubtedly ensure that offensive/defensive balance is achieved.



With that in mind, we probably want to get away from monsterous HQSS CP complexes that take most of a day to place and connect... Bde Main isn't safely behind the rear anymore (although it likely never was). From a C2 context, we've gone from big CPs under cam nets attracting fires, to big FOBs attracting rockets/mortars to returning to big CPs on big trucks not even bothering to conceal them anymore. What's the definition of insanity again?


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## Infanteer (4 Oct 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> With that in mind, we probably want to get away from monsterous HQSS CP complexes that take most of a day to place and connect... Bde Main isn't safely behind the rear anymore (although it likely never was). From a C2 context, we've gone from big CPs under cam nets attracting fires, to big FOBs attracting rockets/mortars to returning to big CPs on big trucks not even bothering to conceal them anymore. What's the definition of insanity again?



A consequence of some professional laziness in the West since 1991, when we essentially could rely upon Air Supremacy due to the USAF.  I think the Canadian Army feels this even more because of a relative lack of SATCOM systems, requiring us to lug more things around the AO.

We also aren't helped by the intellectual trap of having to having large staffs and, perhaps, an over-diversity of functionality in a tactical command post.


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## Lumber (4 Oct 2020)

Lol. Hiding from aircraft. You guys are cute.

Also, I get HQ and CP but whats SS?


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## PuckChaser (4 Oct 2020)

Headquarters Shelter System, replacement project for the mod tent us Jimmies sling around in the field. Basically seacans with folding sides and built in power/lights.


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## Infanteer (4 Oct 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Lol. Hiding from aircraft. You guys are cute.
> 
> Also, I get HQ and CP but whats SS?



It's been done for 100+ years.  Read your history.  One good example is the PLA putting 350,000 soldiers into assembly areas on the Yalu, undetected, in 1950 despite complete air supremacy by the US Air Force.


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## Lumber (4 Oct 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> It's been done for 100+ years.  Read your history.  One good example is the PLA putting 350,000 soldiers into assembly areas on the Yalu, undetected, in 1950 despite complete air supremacy by the US Air Force.



... 
It was sarcasm aimed at the fact that I'm in the Navy and in the Navy you can't hide your ships from aircraft. Ever.


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## dapaterson (4 Oct 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> ...
> It was sarcasm aimed at the fact that I'm in the Navy and in the Navy you can't hide your ship's from aircraft. Ever.



Submarines do a pretty good job of it.


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## FJAG (4 Oct 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> A consequence of some professional laziness in the West since 1991, when we essentially could rely upon Air Supremacy due to the USAF.  I think the Canadian Army feels this even more because of a relative lack of SATCOM systems, requiring us to lug more things around the AO.
> 
> We also aren't helped by the intellectual trap of having to having large staffs and, perhaps, an over-diversity of functionality in a tactical command post.



The above made me smile and refer back to our discussions you and I had last year about brigade structures and particularly the 422 person/131 vehicle armoured and mechanized brigade group headquarters. (as compared to a 314 pers/ 89 veh US ABCT and 298 pers/ 88 veh SBCT - which are a bit difficult to compare because of structure)

I've since had a closer look at Russian units and their relative leaness (and note that they are actively re-aggregating into divisional structures). One thing I haven't found is the size of a Russian brigade's headquarters. I expect that like their subordinate units, they are significantly more compact than ours.

 :cheers:


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## Lumber (4 Oct 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Submarines do a pretty good job of it.



Those are _boats  _


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## Underway (4 Oct 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Those are boats



 :ditto:   :nod:


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## MilEME09 (5 Oct 2020)

https://calgaryherald.com/pmn/news-pmn/azerbaijans-leader-says-no-end-to-fighting-until-armenia-sets-pullout-timetable/wcm/de0fc420-4689-4bb6-b397-dc9cb234bc11?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1601838391

Azerbaijan now says they have 1 condition to a ceasefire and peace talks, Armenia must set a pullout time table.

I doubt Armenia will but the international community may push for it as well given the UNSC including Russia have seen the disputed territory as Azerbaijan's.


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## FJAG (7 Oct 2020)

This is an interesting article dispelling some early conclusions being reached out of this conflict.

The sharp lessons that need to be dealt with, especially by Canada, is that our force - as constituted, as equipped and as trained - will be easily degraded on a modern battlefield because it does not have the appropriate tactics nor the requisite defensive measures, nor will it be able to counterstrike because it does not have the appropriate weapon systems nor the necessary network capabilities to link sensors to counter-strike systems as are needed these days.

Again I find it incredulous that Canada, with ten times the military budget of Azerbaijan, is so far behind.

Time to wake up folks.



> The Key to Armenia’s Tank Losses: The Sensors, Not the Shooters
> Jack Watling
> RUSI Defence Systems, 6 October 2020
> Military Sciences, Land Forces, Land Operations
> ...



Full article here.

 :cheers:


----------



## Infanteer (7 Oct 2020)

My riposte to Dr Watling's remarks.



> There is a tendency for Western soldiers to dismiss what can be learned from these incidents because the videos show limited tactical proficiency being displayed by Armenian troops. This is misguided for several reasons. The snippet videos usually show armour manoeuvring, when camouflage is hard to maintain, and which Western forces would equally have to do if they were to affect the outcome of battle. The videos have also been selected as examples of Azerbaijani successes. However, there is actually a lot of evidence of Armenian forces digging in, concealing positions, and deploying decoys, of which at least two were struck by Azerbaijani forces.



Disagree.  The footage we saw linked earlier demonstrated many examples of Armenian positions that were "dug in" but basically exposed from the air, so it isn't all "tank moving in open gets struck."  What we aren't seeing is footage of positions that aren't concealed and aren't getting hit.  How many positions like that are out there?  Operational analysis after the conflict should be asking this.

The point I'm trying to make is that "Western soldiers" should critique what we are seeing on video, because it is clearly evident that poor fieldcraft is a contributing factor as to why these positions/vehicles are getting hit.  I will maintain my position that good fieldcraft will help mitigate the effects of enemy aerial observation - manned or unmanned.



> More importantly, this dismissal of evidence suggests a lack of appreciation of just how naked the modern battlefield has become. Against a peer adversary it is entirely reasonable to expect the battlefield to be swept by ground-moving target indicator (GMTI) radars, with tactical units able to scan terrain out to 150 km. Night or day, unusual cross-terrain movements, coordinated spacing, and lack of adherence to civilian roads, all make military vehicles highly distinct to trained operators.



The battlefield has been fairly naked since 1917, where the rule is if it was spotted it would be destroyed.  There are other key consideration is that humans are in the loop - just because you inundate commanders with GMTI sweeps out to 150km doesn't mean they are going to be able to process and action it quickly enough.  Fog, friction, and fear all still have a role to play in things.  Technology can be spoofed - there is a good article on reconnaissance that highlights the Iraqis spoofing JSTARS by dragging a strand of razor wire behind a truck.

I maintain that, despite over 100 year of technological advances in observation, humans are still surprised in war.  There are reasons for this.



> A further layer of scrutiny will come from electronic warfare units. Dependency upon radio in Western operations is a hard habit to kick, especially given the stringent safety standards in exercises. Western forces tend to leave a tell-tale map of electronic signatures for an adversary to analyse. Even platoon infantry attacks tend to see a lot of exchanges on the company net. For a competent adversary these signatures offer another potent tool to map Western forces’ movements.



This is just professional laziness in the West - anyone who served prior to 1991 is well versed in this battlefield reality and knows of the countermeasures that would be put in place to reduce signatures.  I have studied numerous case studies where units would spend 6-12 hours moving on radio silence to avoid detection.



> The hope that camouflage will conceal vehicles from observation is highly optimistic. The proliferation of infrared and thermal imaging cameras makes concealment harder – by night or day – and even vehicles under thermal screens can often be given away by personnel leaving those screens to urinate or similar, all too human, needs. More importantly, some traces are hard to cover. The best evidence that armour will be unable to hide is that Western tracked vehicles struggle to avoid observation by friendly UAVs on exercise, which can quickly follow track marks on the ground to the woodblock where a vehicle is hiding.



Measure - countermeasure is an enduring reality of technology in war.  Nothing has convinced me that infrared and thermal imaging - which actually aren't that new - will eliminate the ability to conceal and generate surprise on the battlefield.



> Besides the vulnerability of other kinds of vehicle, the ability to inflict persistent attrition upon an adversary at reach does not change the fact that land warfare is about taking and holding ground, and the ground will still ultimately need to be assaulted. Once committed to an assault on defended positions, armour remains critical to rapid success with acceptable losses. The challenge is to get a combined arms formation within striking distance without it having suffered heavy losses before entering the direct fire zone. Armenia, for instance, has lost the equivalent number of tanks to more than a third of the UK’s heavy armour inventory.



I can concur with this...and it is nothing really new.  I just finished an Israeli book on Golan in 1973, and you could apply this directly to a conflict that occured almost 50 years ago.



> The lessons are far reaching. Heavy formations must likely disperse to avoid being engaged by area-of-effect munitions at reach. This makes protecting them from UAVs and air attack more challenging, requiring the integration of short-ranged air defences (SHORAD) across tactical units, along with EW – specifically electronic attack – capabilities. This means a move away from camouflage towards hard protection, able to sanitise areas of the battlefield of enemy ISTAR assets. This does not prevent detection, however, since finding UAVs and engaging them will require radar – especially at night – which implies the need for  emissions detectable by enemy EW.
> 
> Therefore, a broader shift in mindset is required as to how combined arms manoeuvre functions. Infliction of attrition against enemy ISTAR must be prioritised to degrade the enemy’s sensor picture to a point where they will struggle to distinguish decoys from real targets. Deception, saturating the electromagnetic spectrum, and other active rather than passive means will be needed to protect the force as it moves into direct contact. Once in contact many traditional tactics and capabilities will remain relevant.



There are some good points here, but some hyperbole.  The lessons aren't "far reaching" - I'd argue that they confirm what we already know.  "Sanitizing areas from enemy ISTAR assets" - you mean I shouldn't just let the enemy fly stuff over my head and see what I'm up to?  That's a far-reaching revelation!  I'd argue that we need to be cautious about overselling the UAV threat.  If measure/countermeasure is a constant on the battlefield, and both sides neutralize, at least to some extent, each others UAV capability, then what does this mean for manouevre forces?

One thing is for certain - we ignore GBAD in the CA to our own peril, but that isn't anything new.  We've just gotten away with it for 30 years because we've been faced against an enemy with flip-flops and AKs.


----------



## FJAG (7 Oct 2020)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> The battlefield has been fairly naked since 1917, where the rule is if it was spotted it would be destroyed.  There are other key consideration is that humans are in the loop - just because you inundate commanders with GMTI sweeps out to 150km doesn't mean they are going to be able to process and action it quickly enough.  ...
> 
> There are some good points here, but some hyperbole.  The lessons aren't "far reaching" - I'd argue that they confirm what we already know.  "Sanitizing areas from enemy ISTAR assets" - you mean I shouldn't just let the enemy fly stuff over my head and see what I'm up to?  That's a far-reaching revelation!  I'd argue that we need to be cautious about overselling the UAV threat.  If measure/countermeasure is a constant on the battlefield, and both sides neutralize, at least to some extent, each others UAV capability, then what does this mean for manouevre forces?
> 
> One thing is for certain - we ignore GBAD in the CA to our own peril, but that isn't anything new.  We've just gotten away with it for 30 years because we've been faced against an enemy with flip-flops and AKs.



If there's one thing that this article (and the Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict in particular) has got me thinking about is that there is a distinction starting to develop between the close in fight conducted by the brigade and the fight in depth which should be conducted by a separate organization freeing up the brigade level commanders to concentrate on their own fight. 

I've lost touch over the years with Canadian doctrine on this issue but expect that with our operational experience over the last two decades that we haven't done much about it. 

In my day that separation was easy in that it was the role of Corps, to some extent the division and our air resources. Brigades were divorced from the fight in depth because of the limited range of their artillery and that the depth surveillance resources were primarily air anyway. With today's use of UAVs and long range strike capabilities, it becomes clear that there is a critical need for GBAD and electronic countermeasures within the brigade to protect the brigade, but the actual acquisition of the enemy's resources in depth and counterstriking against those is a fight that should be fought by resources provided from outside the brigade which in large measure are now also above brigade army resources, air and possibly even off-shore ships.

Looking at the establishment and organization of the Enhanced Forward Presence Battlegroup Latvia; the Latvian Mechanized Infantry Brigade; the Multinational Division North; and the Multinational Corps North East there seems to be virtually no capability to conduct a fight in depth or, for that matter, to defend the brigade against the type of surveillance and long range strike capability being used routinely by Russia in Ukraine or even low-tier combatants like Azerbaijan.

I'm frankly mystified by our lack of progress on these issues since we left Afghanistan in 2011 and especially since the Russo-Ukrainian conflict of 2014. On the other hand we've adopted old rank insignia and have written one kick-butt memo on racism, so I guess we're doing okay then.  :sarcasm:

 :cheers:


----------



## Haligonian (7 Oct 2020)

Thoughts from the article.

1. We need to have the capability to significantly degrade enemy ISR capabilities. Surprise surprise. It's likely that future conflict could see the requirement to achieve "ISR Superiority," or "ISR Degradation" of the opposing force, similar to how we would seek air superiority, before committing to decisive land ops.

2. There are multiple ways of disrupting these capabilities. They need significant bandwidth and control of a portion of the EM spectrum. Automation can eliminate some of these vulnerabilities by taking the requirement for bandwidth and communications with the drone out of the picture but also increase the risk by putting the machine in charge.

3. When I watch these videos what I see is tank plinking. This is generally how most forces including ourselves have approached the employment of these assets. If your strategy is to exhaust your enemy to compel them to adopt your preferred policy then this maybe a workable solution. Alternately, this is a very incremental approach which will provide the enemy with significant opportunities to adapt. We're only a little over a week into this conflict and we already have people providing analysis but I suspect that we will see some significant changes in behavior to avoid airborne precision firepower. Depending on what you're trying to achieve strategically, I would suggest a better use of these weapons is to enable decisive maneuver with a view to achieving important objectives in the shortest period possible to limit the enemy's ability to adapt, as opposed to incremental destruction which the enemy is likely able to absorb and adapt to. We need avoid becoming overly enamored with these types of videos as we consider the employment of these systems.

A good example is Desert Storm. While there was lots of tank plinking in the lead up, more importantly the coalition knew the location of the end of Iraqi defence line which allowed VII Corps to drive around and attack directly the reserve Republican Guard divisions.


----------



## Infanteer (7 Oct 2020)

Haligonian said:
			
		

> 1. We need to have the capability to significantly degrade enemy ISR capabilities. Surprise surprise. It's likely that future conflict could see the requirement to achieve "ISR Superiority," or "ISR Degradation" of the opposing force, similar to how we would seek air superiority, before committing to decisive land ops.



The Germans recognized this in 1917.  They created Richthofen's Flying Circus to "achieve ISR Superiority."



> 3. When I watch these videos what I see is tank plinking. This is generally how most forces including ourselves have approached the employment of these assets.



We may see arguments come out of this that are the next generation of "Airpower Wins Wars Alone" al la Gulf War and Kosovo.  "Drones Win Wars Alone."  Buyer beware.


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## CBH99 (8 Oct 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> If there's one thing that this article (and the Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict in particular) has got me thinking about is that there is a distinction starting to develop between the close in fight conducted by the brigade and the fight in depth which should be conducted by a separate organization freeing up the brigade level commanders to concentrate on their own fight.
> 
> I've lost touch over the years with Canadian doctrine on this issue but expect that with our operational experience over the last two decades that we haven't done much about it.
> 
> ...




I think most of us, when looking at our current state - and quite frankly, the state of some of our allies - also wonder the same thing.  While we watched the Russians execute a very lethal and professional hybrid warfare campaign against Ukraine - using drones, long range precision fires, raining artillery down on any units that emitted any sort of electronic or radio signal - we have, ourselves, not adapted to an enemy that is literally showing us how they operate.

I don't think anybody would disagree with you at all FJAG.

I will however state the obvious, which is something we all know, all too well.



Militaries are by and large, reactive organizations.  They shouldn't be.  Heck, they are one of the only government institutions that should be as proactive as possible.  But, the reality is, more often than not, they are reactive.

We only need to look at Afghanistan to see how the government / military said "Wowa!  We need a bunch of stuff that we don't have...shopping spree time!"  We reacted by UOR'ing RG-31's, Leopard 2's, C-17's, a new fleet of Chinooks, C-130's, etc etc.



I fear if we ever find ourselves involved in a conflict such as this current one between Armenia & Azerbaijani, we'll just end up solving the problems the same way we did in Afghanistan.  A quick shopping spree & some painful lessons learned early on...    :2c:


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## FJAG (8 Oct 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I think most of us, when looking at our current state - and quite frankly, the state of some of our allies - also wonder the same thing.  While we watched the Russians execute a very lethal and professional hybrid warfare campaign against Ukraine - using drones, long range precision fires, raining artillery down on any units that emitted any sort of electronic or radio signal - we have, ourselves, not adapted to an enemy that is literally showing us how they operate.
> 
> I don't think anybody would disagree with you at all FJAG.
> 
> ...


  

We may not have the luxury of time to acquire and learn how to properly use everything. That's my worry.

op:


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## CBH99 (8 Oct 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> We may not have the luxury of time to acquire and learn how to properly use everything. That's my worry.
> 
> op:




Sure we will!!

Maybe not in time to be in the thick of it on the opening days, but if it's drawn out for a decade like Afghanistan was, we'll eventually have the kit & be good with it     *insert devil face emoji here*



**Mods, we need a little devil face emoji like on iPhone**


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## TangoTwoBravo (8 Oct 2020)

I was in the Lessons Learned business for three years, including a operational tour, and my Staff College research paper was on institutional learning from other armies' experience (if you need a non-medicinal sleep aid let me know). I looked at the Russo-Japanese War, the Spanish Civil war and the October 1973 War. I say this only to frame my comments and not establish expertise. My first observation is that individuals and units learn quickly and effectively. Or they die. They intimately understand the context of their experience. There is no question of validity. 

There are pitfalls trying to learn from other people's experience. Is the experience valid? What is the context? Is the situation relevant? You can learn the wrong lesson (make a bad or in appropriate adaptation), or fail to pick up a vital adaptation. The latter certainly happened in the case of the Russo-Japanese War. Its one thing to transmit lessons within the same army. Its another to do so from one army to another. We can tend to see what we want to see. While the Germans picked up some good lessons from the Spanish Civil War, they were participants. Foreign observers drew very contradictory lessons, usually reinforcing pre-existing notions in ongoing debates.

Its very tempting to say that this clash should change our doctrine, equipment, training and organization. Its also very premature. Knocking out a tank battalion in an afternoon was doable in 1991, 1973, 1941 and indeed 1917. We should certainly examine this clash, keeping the frame of the engagement in mind. If nothing else, its a reminder that conventional interstate conflict is not something relegated to history. History is not dead. There are likely some old lessons that this clash have reinforced.


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## MilEME09 (9 Oct 2020)

https://globalnews.ca/news/7390379/armenia-azerbaijan-cease-fire/

Russia has helped broker a cease fire starting tomorrow (Saturday) we shall see if it holds


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## Kat Stevens (9 Oct 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> https://globalnews.ca/news/7390379/armenia-azerbaijan-cease-fire/
> 
> Russia has helped broker a cease fire starting tomorrow (Saturday) we shall see if it holds



Soon to be followed by Soviet Russian troops moving in to protect the three dozen ethnic Russians in the region.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Oct 2020)

I was keen on was getting the 60mm MOR back into the rifle platoon until I saw this, and then the list got longer  

The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict is ushering in a new age of warfare

Drones, sensors and long-range weapons have given one side a clear edge in the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

Both Armenia and Azerbaijan, traditional enemies, have been building up their armed forces over the last decade. They fought a bloody war that ended in 1994, in which tens of thousands of people were killed and hundreds of thousands were displaced on both sides. Azerbaijan’s army collapsed and Armenia took control of several regions, including the key regions of Fuzuli and Jabrayil in the south, bordering Iran. President Ilham Aliyev of Azerbaijan has been explicit in his desire to return these regions to Azerbaijan.

The country has a defence and mutual assistance pact with its neighbour and ally Turkey. Extensive joint exercises were held in late July and early August with, according to Azerbaijan, as many as 11,000 Turkish troops taking part, with units training alongside each other. Turkish Air Force 

The exercises were run just after a bloody clash between the two enemies in early July lasting several days in which drone warfare was prominent.
Tanks and armoured vehicles take part in a comprehensive joint military exercise between Turkey and Azerbaijan in Baku, Azerbaijan on August 6, 2020 [Azerbaijan Defense Ministry/Handout/Anadolu Agency via Getty Images]
Drones and more drones

The use of drones or unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) has been increasing in battlefields across the world and the current conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia is no exception. Images of armoured vehicles being destroyed, regardless of attempts at camouflage, flooded Western media outlets as Armenian tanks were swiftly targeted by armed drones. Azerbaijan has been steadily building up its force of UAVs.

Israel, a major drone exporter, has been supplying the Azeri armed forces with loitering munitions like the Harop, which were used to great effect in the previous major skirmish in 2016, dubbed the “Four Day War”. This is a new class of munition which is essentially a Kamikaze or suicide UAV. A combination of bomb and drone, it loiters over the battlefield, its remote operator searching for targets. Once found, the drone is flown into the target, destroying both itself and the target.

The Harop, or Harpy, could be heard due to its engine but newer models of Kamikaze UAV like the Skystriker and Orbiter 1K, recently supplied by Israel to Azerbaijan, use electric motors and are virtually silent until they start their attack dive.

More recently, Azerbaijan has bought the operationally successful Bayraktar TB2 from Turkey and has used them with great success. Cheap and effective, they have more advanced optics, sensors and can return to base, swiftly refuel, rearm and be back in the air again, hovering over the battlefield looking for fresh targets.

Drones have one more important effect. Their cameras, filming the destruction of a target in clear, unwavering high definition video, allow a country to dominate the propaganda narrative. Media outlets were saturated with images of Armenian armour and artillery being effortlessly destroyed, not the other way round. Despite Azerbaijani losses, the Armenian armed forces, for the most part, did not have cameras trained on their intended target. These images have enhanced Azerbaijan’s sense of success on the battlefield, presenting an image of near-total Azerbaijani victory.

It is not just the use of drones that has been so decisive. The modern battlespace is filling up with sensors, making it far easier to spot an adversary from far off. Drones, armed or not, are effectively sensor platforms, feeding vital information about the enemies’ movements back to command centres.

This, coupled with ground detection radar – which is able to pick up moving or concealed tanks and armoured vehicles, day or night – means that it is now increasingly hard to hide on the battlefield.

With movement, and therefore tactics, detected, long-range artillery and air raids are brought to bear, often with devastating results. Turkey used this successfully in northern Syria and these lessons have clearly been passed on to the Azerbaijanis in their recent joint exercises.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2020/10/11/nagorno-karabakh-conflict-ushering-in-new-age-of-warfare?fbclid=IwAR28NohwtJCt1v5CSq2rT7hiOY5IuoMXtRIX6UFVU_GYI-M_1G2fdoYZB5s


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## FJAG (11 Oct 2020)

The lessons that I'm quickly getting out of this are:

1. suicide drone attacks are effective in the way that dive bombers were - can they also earth-skim and pop-up dive? They'll probably have to in a more hostile AD environment;

2. either way, it should not be a major technical leap to have a drone where the munition can separate at the last moment (possibly automatically) and allow a chance of recovering the drone making it a cost saver in that the flight and electronics package can be reused;

3. these things should be less expensive than guided 155 rounds as none of the components need to be capable of withstanding the shock of firing;

4. when launched they do not give away their position like artillery;

5. these systems should be well within the manufacturing capability of a Canadian company and therefore capable of viable domestic production especially as they are more in the nature of a munition and therefore have have an ongoing manufacturing requirement for projectiles and replacement delivery aircraft;

6. You can build a really cheap Nerf trg round that can be used on exercise.

If I was 10 years younger I'd be forming a company.

 :cheers:


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## blacktriangle (11 Oct 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> 2. either way, it should not be a major technical leap to have a drone where the munition can separate at the last moment (possibly automatically) and allow a chance of recovering the drone making it a cost saver in that the flight and electronics package can be reused;



Might not be worth the added effort & cost, depending on the size and complexity of the unit. And if you can recover it, so can someone else. Be it to exploit technology & information, or to re-purpose the hardware.

Definitely some interesting things one can push out of a 40mm launcher or a 60mm tube these days.


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## The Bread Guy (12 Oct 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> https://globalnews.ca/news/7390379/armenia-azerbaijan-cease-fire/
> 
> Russia has helped broker a cease fire starting tomorrow (Saturday) we shall see if it holds


Aaaaaaaaaand there's Turkey, throwing a stick into the spokes ...


> Turkey and Azerbaijan may have jointly planned the Azerbaijani offensive to contest Armenia’s control of Nagorno-Karabakh that reignited that simmering conflict. Tensions between Azerbaijan and Armenia over the disputed, Armenian-held region of Nagorno-Karabakh escalated into conventional combat on September 27. International media coverage has largely portrayed the ongoing conflict as the result of a spontaneous escalation. But Turkish-Azerbaijani military cooperation, drone sales, and force mobilization indicate Azerbaijan prepared – with Turkish support - to dispute Armenia’s presence in Nagorno-Karabakh prior to September 27. Azerbaijan reportedly purchased Turkish-made drones in June 2020 and is deploying them to great effect. Turkish and Azerbaijani forces conducted large-scale joint military exercises between July 29 and August 10 and conducted high-level bilateral meetings on July 16 and August 13.[ii] Following the exercises, Turkey left behind F-16 fighter jets in Azerbaijan as a “deterrent” against Armenia. The extent of Turkish military personnel involvement in current active combat operations, if any, is unclear.
> 
> (...)
> 
> ...


More @ link


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## MarkOttawa (12 Oct 2020)

Turkey certainly encouraging Azeris for now:



> Turkey wants Armenian forces to leave 'occupied' Azeri lands
> _Ankara supports Azerbaijan's bid to retake "its own lands" in Nagorno-Karabakh, the Turkish defense minister said while talking to Moscow. Azerbaijan has been pushing for Turkey to be given a bigger role in peace talks._
> 
> Amid a failing ceasefire in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region, Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar restated Ankara's support for Azerbaijan's "campaign to take back its own lands." Akar made the comments during a telephone call with his Russian counterpart Sergey Shoigu on Monday.
> ...



Mark
Ottawa


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## Kat Stevens (12 Oct 2020)

Can't someone just fly over with some covids in the contrails and send them all to bed with the sniffles for a week or two till they calm down?  ???


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## MilEME09 (12 Oct 2020)

Target Up said:
			
		

> Can't someone just fly over with some covids in the contrails and send them all to bed with the sniffles for a week or two till they calm down?  ???



Or maybe we need a UN/NATO buffer zone to separate the two parties, then force both sides to the table. Then again that might turn into the seife of Sarajevo all over again.


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## CBH99 (12 Oct 2020)

Target Up said:
			
		

> Can't someone just fly over with some covids in the contrails and send them all to bed with the sniffles for a week or two till they calm down?  ???




This comment was flagged by the alien super computers over at the MIB...

Expect a knock on the door in 3...2...1...   8)


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## CBH99 (12 Oct 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Or maybe we need a UN/NATO buffer zone to separate the two parties, then force both sides to the table. Then again that might turn into the seife of Sarajevo all over again.




On the surface, it sounds like a noble idea.  But with Turkey backing one side, and Russia backing the other -- neither NATO nor Russia could be trusted to be acting in the best interest of the mission.   :2c:


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## MilEME09 (12 Oct 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> On the surface, it sounds like a noble idea.  But with Turkey backing one side, and Russia backing the other -- neither NATO nor Russia could be trusted to be acting in the best interest of the mission.   :2c:



May I recommend India then?


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## blacktriangle (12 Oct 2020)

Target Up said:
			
		

> Can't someone just fly over with some covids in the contrails and send them all to bed with the sniffles for a week or two till they calm down?  ???



Sorry dude, we reserve the chemtrails for use on domestic city dwellers. 

As for the supercomputers...they are busy with Twitter. You guys should be fairly safe. 

 :Tin-Foil-Hat:


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## Colin Parkinson (23 Oct 2020)

A blog tracking losses

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2020/09/the-fight-for-nagorno-karabakh.html

The blog Oryxspioenkop is tracking the losses, as seen in the footage and Armenia has so far lost the following radars:

1x P-18

4x 36D6

1x SNR-125 (for S-125)

1x 5N63S (for S-300)

1x 19J6 (for S-300)

1x 1S32 (for 2K11 Krug)

1x 1S91 SURN (for 2K12 Kub)


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## GR66 (26 Oct 2020)

Defence Blog (and others) are reporting that Iranian Republican Guard units are moving to the border region with Nagorno-Karabakh

https://defence-blog.com/news/army/iran-moves-troops-to-azerbaijans-border.html

Foreign Policy Magazine suggests that Tehran may be concerned about possible spillover of the conflict to the large Azeri minority within Iran (as Iran is opening its airspace to Russian aircraft supplying the Armenians in the conflict).

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/10/14/iran-azeri-ethnic-minority-nagorno-karabakh/


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## The Bread Guy (10 Nov 2020)

Kremlin info-machine:  we have a ceasefire ....


> President of Russia Vladimir Putin: Today, on November 9, President of the Republic of Azerbaijan Ilham Aliyev and Prime Minister of the Republic of Armenia Nikol Pashinyan have signed a statement on a complete ceasefire and the termination of hostilities in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict zone as of midnight, Moscow time, on November 10, 2020.
> 
> The Republic of Azerbaijan and the Republic of Armenia will remain in their current positions. A peacekeeping force of the Russian Federation will be deployed on the contact line in Nagorno-Karabakh and along the corridor connecting it to the Republic of Armenia.
> 
> ...


Another "ceasefire" like we see in eastern Ukraine coming?

Also, Russian "peacekeepers" to the rescue ...


> Russia is immediately deploying about 1,960 soldiers to the self-declared Nagorno-Karabakh region in Azerbaijan.
> 
> According to a press release issued Tuesday by Russian Defense Ministry, the first five Ilyushin Il-76MD Candid airlifters with Russian peacekeepers are heading to Nagorno-Karabakh from Ulyanovsk
> 
> ...



Meanwhile, a bit of an "oopsie ..." (via RUS state media) ...


> Azerbaijan downed Russian helicopter by mistake and is ready to compensate Moscow for the damages, the republic's Foreign Ministry announced.
> 
> "The helicopter was flying in the close vicinity of the Armenian-Azerbaijani state border at the time of active hostilities in the zone of the Armenian-Azerbaijani Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. The flight was taking place after dark, at a low altitude, outside the air defense radar detection zone. Helicopters of the Russian Armed Forces had not been detected in said area previously," the ministry stated. According to the ministry, "in the context of the aforementioned factors and in the light of the tense situation in the region and the high military alert due to possible provocations of the Armenian side, the on-duty operational crew made the decision to use deadly force." ...


Map attached to give a bit of the lay of the land.


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## Spencer100 (10 Nov 2020)

So is this a win for Erdogan?  It seem like it from the news reports? Thought?

Is the Armenian government going to fall?

Putin win or lose or tie?


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## MarkOttawa (10 Nov 2020)

Spencer100 said:
			
		

> So is this a win for Erdogan?  It seem like it from the news reports? Thought?
> 
> Is the Armenian government going to fall?
> 
> Putin win or lose or tie?



Paradoxically a win for both Erdogan (Azerbaijan overall victor) and Putin (Armenia ever more client state, Russian troops on the ground unlikely to leave for quite some time). Somehow the two leaders, although with major conflicts between them, keep managing to work things out so neither really gets a lasting black eye (cf. S400). Great _Realpolitik_ diplomacy between states with a long history of strife and enmity.

The sort of diplomacy western states except for France (_raison d'État_--and maybe to some extent Italy) are simply not very good at because of constant concern over human and minority rights, democracy, rule of law etc.

Mark
Ottawa


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## CBH99 (10 Nov 2020)

I know this isn't really related to the conflict in the area, but I have to admit...I'm personally embarrassed at how ignorant I am of the region.

I had no idea that Azerbaijani is one of the fastest growing tourist destinations in the world   



I've always understood there was ethnic tension in the area, but I hadn't taken the time to really educate myself about the area beyond basic news headlines.  Time to do some tea-time reading tonight.


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## MilEME09 (10 Nov 2020)

Azerbaijan really came out on top here, and once we see official casualties released I think this may come as a complete strategic victory for Azerbaijan. They get to take back key parts of previously occupied territory, including a major city, secured freedom of movement to its western territories, and have Russian peace keepers preventing Armenia from attempting a counter attack.


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## Weinie (10 Nov 2020)

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Azerbaijan really came out on top here, and once we see official casualties released I think this may come as a complete strategic victory for Azerbaijan. They get to take back key parts of previously occupied territory, including a major city, secured freedom of movement to its western territories, and have Russian peace keepers preventing Armenia from attempting a counter attack.



And why did they come out on top? Significant use of suicide drones/armed UAV's in the first week of the conflict, hammering the Armenian front-line kinetic forces.  There are some key takeaways here.


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## FJAG (10 Nov 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> And why did they come out on top? Significant use of suicide drones/armed UAV's in the first week of the conflict, hammering the Armenian front-line kinetic forces.  There are some key takeaways here.



I like looking at Al Jazeera to get a slightly different bent on the news. They've offered an interesting string of articles about the conflict in the last day including that Armenia's prime minster was pressured into the peace deal by his military and that there is also some concern within Azerbaijan that Russia's inserting itself into the process is raising a spectre of it becoming an occupying force in the region.



> “The price for all of that is Russian troops on the ground in the form of peacekeepers and that may become an irritant in the Russian-Azerbaijani relationship over time.”
> 
> “Russia has reasserted itself quite convincingly in the short to medium term but over the long term, this peacekeeping operation may start to look like an occupying force.”
> 
> “What Russia has done is to essentially commit to a peacekeeping operation but without a political process or a fully fledged peace process to legitimate that process.”



And then there's the role Turkey will play in the peacekeeping process



> Aliyev said Turkey will also take part in the peace-keeping process.



... or not.



> The deal to end fighting between Armenia and Azerbaijan does not entail any Turkish peacekeeping troops being deployed in the disputed Nagorno-Karabakh region, the Kremlin said.



https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/11/10/tensions-mount-despite-nagorno-karabakh-peace-deal-live-news

 :cheers:


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## suffolkowner (10 Nov 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> And why did they come out on top? Significant use of suicide drones/armed UAV's in the first week of the conflict, hammering the Armenian front-line kinetic forces.  There are some key takeaways here.



Yes, lots more information to digest on what needs to be done to prepare for a less limited engagement. But also time I think for the Armenians to regroup and figure out what they can and how they can better prepare going forward.

Meanwhile we in Canada haven't been able to procure a MALE UAV yet plus no GBAD, SHORAD, SP artillery or MRLS (insert appropiate emoji here)


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## FJAG (10 Nov 2020)

suffolkowner said:
			
		

> Meanwhile we in Canada haven't been able to procure a MALE UAV yet plus no GBAD, SHORAD, SP artillery or MRLS (insert appropiate emoji here)



 :brickwall:


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## Weinie (10 Nov 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> I like looking at Al Jazeera to get a slightly different bent on the news. They've offered an interesting string of articles about the conflict in the last day _*including that Armenia's prime minister was pressured into the peace deal by his military*_ and that there is also some concern within Azerbaijan that Russia's inserting itself into the process is raising a spectre of it becoming an occupying force in the region.



Yes, because the Armenian military was getting hammered by a more agile, modern, non "Hulk smash"-approach force. I'm surprised it took so long. The Armenian military lost between (depending on what you believe) between 1/3 and 3/4 of their front line heavy metal forces. They are, regardless, significantly weakened.

Russia is not inserting themselves per se. They, IMHO, looked at it pragmatically and determined that the Armenian side would lose any extended conflict, and  decided that now is the best time to cut their losses.


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## MilEME09 (11 Nov 2020)

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/11/nikol-is-a-traitor-armenia-pm-refuses-to-yield-to-opposition-after-nagorno-karabakh-deal

Seems some wanted Armenia to keep fighting a loosing war, there are conflicting reports the Armenian military pushed for the latest ceasefire due to mounting casualties. I do not blame them, if this kept going I bet Azerbaijan would push to link the western territories to Azerbaijan proper.


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## FJAG (18 Nov 2020)

Turkey is joining in the peacekeeping:



> Turkey’s parliament approved the deployment of troops to join Russian forces at an observation post in Nagorno-Karabakh after Armenia and Azerbaijan signed a Russian-brokered ceasefire to end fighting over the enclave.
> 
> The mandate will allow Turkish troops to be stationed at the centre for one year as part of an accord between Ankara and Moscow to monitor the implementation of the ceasefire, which locked in territorial gains by Azerbaijan.
> 
> ...



See whole article here.

 :cheers:


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## CBH99 (19 Nov 2020)

When I first read the headline earlier today, I was a wee bit skeptical about whether Turkey participating in a peacekeeping effort was a good idea.  

Ofcourse Turkey's parliament voted in favour of Ergodan's suggestion, they really don't have much of a choice.



Now that I've read a few other articles about the matter, it seems this arrangement with Russia might just be the only smart way to have Turkey involved.  

Limited to an observation center, and troops not allowed to venture into trouble areas.  Basically just privy to whatever is observed & beamed back to the observation center.


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## suffolkowner (24 Nov 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> Yes, because the Armenian military was getting hammered by a more agile, modern, non "Hulk smash"-approach force. I'm surprised it took so long. The Armenian military lost between (depending on what you believe) between 1/3 and 3/4 of their front line heavy metal forces. They are, regardless, significantly weakened.
> 
> Russia is not inserting themselves per se. They, IMHO, looked at it pragmatically and determined that the Armenian side would lose any extended conflict, and  decided that now is the best time to cut their losses.



https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1331325234041872386

how reliable the above is. I don't know and I believe these were Armenian forces just in N-K but pretty much devasted.


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Nov 2020)

Being having interesting discussion over on tanknet about this conflict https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/41598-armenia-azerbaijan-conflict/


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## FJAG (25 Nov 2020)

Good article from Der Spiegel on the aftermath



> Nagorno-Karabakh Settles in for Five Years of Uncertainty
> Russian troops have arrived in Nagorno-Karabakh to keep the peace, but thousands of Armenians are having to flee the region. They are leaving nothing to the arriving Azerbaijanis – and it is unclear when normalcy might return.
> By Christian Esch 24.11.2020,
> 
> ...



See rest of article here.

 :cheers:


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## a_majoor (26 Nov 2020)

A very illuminating article from a European Perspective:

https://ecfr.eu/article/military-lessons-from-nagorno-karabakh-reason-for-europe-to-worry/



> Military lessons from Nagorno-Karabakh: Reason for Europe to worry
> 
> The 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war holds important lessons for European defence. European governments should study it urgently.
> @GresselGustav on Twitter
> ...



Full article at the link.

The final piece is extremely relevant for us as well -we have none of these things and have not really expressed any urgency in gaining these capabilities either. Like Armenia, our forces are professional and well trained, but not trained at all for this form of warfare, nor do we have the equipment to either fight or protect ourselves in that form of warfare. Considering we have troops in Latvia and other places where these capabilites exist, this is a very serious shortcoming.


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## FJAG (26 Nov 2020)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> The final piece is extremely relevant for us as well -we have none of these things and have not really expressed any urgency in gaining these capabilities either. Like Armenia, our forces are professional and well trained, but not trained at all for this for of warfare, nor do we have the equipment to either fight or protect ourselves in that for of warfare. Considering we have troops in Latvia and other places where these capabilites exist, this is a very serious shortcoming.



We first saw the genesis of some of these capabilities in 2014 in the Ukraine and are quite aware of the technologies yet six years have passed and ... crickets.

The longer that I've been away from the system the more cynical I become about just what the CAF's priorities really are.

There's a point where s 124 of the NDA becomes applicable to its senior leadership.

:clubinhand:


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## daftandbarmy (27 Nov 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> We first saw the genesis of some of these capabilities in 2014 in the Ukraine and are quite aware of the technologies yet six years have passed and ... crickets.
> 
> The longer that I've been away from the system the more cynical I become about just what the CAF's priorities really are.
> 
> ...



From what little I've read it would appear, as ever, our critical gap will be not technical, but intellectual.

When was the last time we practised, at a divisional or any level, 'infiltration' attacks?

Airborne and Commando formations used to practise that kind of stuff. Heavy units? Not so much.

Armoured formations seem to 'armour the mind' against innovation as much as against projectiles.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Nov 2020)

Canadian tradition to suffer a Dieppe before learning how to adapt.


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## FJAG (10 Dec 2020)

Azerbaijani victory parade. Erdogan and Turkey participate.

Note that audio is a bit flaky at the beginning but picks up afterward. Lots of interesting (some old Soviet) equipment towards end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCKg8vZCu0Q

 :cheers:


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## Weinie (10 Dec 2020)

That is an impressive amount of kit.


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## FJAG (11 Dec 2020)

Weinie said:
			
		

> That is an impressive amount of kit.



Annual defence budget of USD2.26 billion. In fairness a lot of it is Soviet Era kit acquired when the USSR broke up. But obviously with a better maintenance program then many Western nations.

 :stirpot:


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## CBH99 (11 Dec 2020)

I've become quite fascinated by Azerbaijan recently.  I had never heard of it prior to this conflict, but it looks really pretty, and has one of the fastest growing tourism sectors in the world.

I'm taking a trip in the next few months, and I'm seriously considering going for a trip here.  Not sure why, but it keeps drawing me in.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Dec 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I've become quite fascinated by Azerbaijan recently.  I had never heard of it prior to this conflict, but it looks really pretty, and has one of the fastest growing tourism sectors in the world.
> 
> I'm taking a trip in the next few months, and I'm seriously considering going for a trip here.  Not sure why, but it keeps drawing me in.



Here are some Lonely Planet articles to pique your interest. Don't miss the 'Flame Towers' 

https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/best-things-to-do-in-baku-azerbaijan


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## Colin Parkinson (11 Dec 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I've become quite fascinated by Azerbaijan recently.  I had never heard of it prior to this conflict, but it looks really pretty, and has one of the fastest growing tourism sectors in the world.
> 
> I'm taking a trip in the next few months, and I'm seriously considering going for a trip here.  Not sure why, but it keeps drawing me in.



Our friend is from Azerbaijan, they have their fair share of beautiful women there. Funny enough her uncle was KGB at one time. I also have a Armenian friend, I will not be inviting them both to the same party for a bit. There is a lot of history in those areas.


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## Cloud Cover (11 Dec 2020)

FJAG said:
			
		

> Azerbaijani victory parade. Erdogan and Turkey participate.
> 
> Note that audio is a bit flaky at the beginning but picks up afterward. Lots of interesting (some old Soviet) equipment towards end.
> 
> ...



Band is annoying, and the announcer has clearly been pulled from the travelling circus.

This thing has some sort of WW2 German look about it:


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## CBH99 (11 Dec 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Here are some Lonely Planet articles to pique your interest. Don't miss the 'Flame Towers'
> 
> https://www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/best-things-to-do-in-baku-azerbaijan




I swear a James Bond movie was filmed in Baku at some point.  Looks like quite the interesting place to explore 

Thanks for the link D&B, I think I'm sold.



ColinP, that entire region seems to be flush with exotic & beautiful women.  I've had some female Armenian friends over the years, and not one of them was remotely average looking  :nod:

I think I'm sold.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Dec 2020)

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I swear a James Bond movie was filmed in Baku at some point.  Looks like quite the interesting place to explore
> 
> Thanks for the link D&B, I think I'm sold.
> 
> ...



Marco Polo was apparently pretty impressed by the continuous fires burning on the Caspian Sea, as well as on various mountains. No wonder the oil industry is such a big deal there:

https://www.livemint.com/mint-lounge/features/bubbling-mud-and-ever-burning-flames-in-baku-11575038532892.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDT2vxn3UYY

OTOH, I'd be careful about the women. Blood feuds are a centuries old hobby in that part of the world


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## FJAG (13 Dec 2020)

An interesting issue arising out of Erdogan's visit to the Azerbaijani victory parade:



> Why did President Erdogan’s poem infuriate Iranians?
> Turkey’s president criticised for what Iranians say was a clear call for breaking up Iran.
> By Maziar Motamedi 13 Dec 2020
> 
> ...



Read rest of article here.

 :cheers:


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## MarkOttawa (13 Dec 2020)

Check the 2019 F1 Azerbaijan Grand Prix at Baku--interesting looking city:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMq9kwvVirI

Mark
Ottawa


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## Colin Parkinson (19 Dec 2020)

A Russian view of the conflict, including force disposition, geography, logistical considerations and technology implications.   

 https://d9mc3ts4czbpr.cloudfront.net/en/article/karabah-2020-voenno-analiticheskij-razbor/?fbclid=IwAR0nwMU7M9RWArjHBSYfVXI6RQVRIob49fD1_KfuyLukDRKkN9IasTncYdc


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## Retired AF Guy (19 Dec 2020)

CloudCover said:
			
		

> This thing has some sort of WW2 German look about it:



Russian MTLB chassis with what looks like a 37mm A/A mounted on top. Give the designer an A+ for ingenuity.


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## FJAG (19 Dec 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> A Russian view of the conflict, including force disposition, geography, logistical considerations and technology implications.
> 
> https://d9mc3ts4czbpr.cloudfront.net/en/article/karabah-2020-voenno-analiticheskij-razbor/?fbclid=IwAR0nwMU7M9RWArjHBSYfVXI6RQVRIob49fD1_KfuyLukDRKkN9IasTncYdc



Colin

An absolutely brilliant find. This article should be mandatory study for everybody. It goes far beyond the UAV and loitering munitions issues to a dozen critical factors as to why the Armenians were outclassed. That does not bode well in that in many respects the Armenians were better prepared and equipped for actual combat than we are. By contrast the Azerbaijani planning, organizing, equipping and logistics processes were well thought out and executed.

(It also Google translated well from the original Russian)

 :cheers:


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## a_majoor (24 Dec 2020)

The United States reacts to joint Russian/Chinese patrols in the Pacific and Arctic. Of course this calls into question our ability to respond, especially in a meaningful way over a prolonged period of time:









						Air Force shows off might in Arctic
					

The U.S. Air Force flexed its muscle in a dramatic show of force this month, amid heightened concern at the Pentagon over the prospect of expanding great power military competition with nations such as Russia and China.




					www.washingtontimes.com
				






> Air Force shows off might in Arctic​By Mike Glenn - The Washington Times - Thursday, December 24, 2020
> The U.S. Air Force flexed its muscle in a dramatic show of force this month, amid heightened concern at the Pentagon over the prospect of expanding great power military competition with nations such as Russia and China.
> 
> In a World War II-style expression force, the Air Force‘s 354th Fighter Wing and the Alaska Air National Guard’s 168th Wing engaged more than 30 aircraft in a massive runway formation on December 18 at Eielson Air Force Base.
> ...



Remainder of story at link


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## daftandbarmy (25 Dec 2020)

FJAG said:


> Colin
> 
> An absolutely brilliant find. This article should be mandatory study for everybody. It goes far beyond the UAV and loitering munitions issues to a dozen critical factors as to why the Armenians were outclassed. *That does not bode well in that in many respects the Armenians were better prepared and equipped for actual combat than we are.* By contrast the Azerbaijani planning, organizing, equipping and logistics processes were well thought out and executed.
> 
> ...


Probably becasue they needed to be, of course. 

Both armies are also conscript armies, which come with a variety of advantages that we will never really have access to like large numbers of trained troops available relatively quickly.


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## FJAG (25 Dec 2020)

daftandbarmy said:


> Probably becasue they needed to be, of course.
> 
> Both armies are also conscript armies, which come with a variety of advantages that we will never really have access to like large numbers of trained troops available relatively quickly.


That reminds me of liaison visit Old Sweat and I had to an Alpini artillery regiment in the Alps which was 90% made up of conscripts. There was a young 2nd Lt (they actually conscript a herd of people and some are trained as 2nd Lts and others as Sgts while the rest fill in all the remaining OR positions) who was an architect in civvy life and whose only assignment with the regiment was to make the panorama sketches used at the observation post. They were absolutely gorgeous paintings suitable for framing.  When you conscript you do get a good cross section of society in the ranks.

I'm still a firm believer that if you do a reserve system right, you can also get a good cross section of skilled and capable folks to do a wide variety of trades to use in a real emergency (not this headquarters Class B carousel that the CAF is on but real emergencies)

🍻


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## Colin Parkinson (4 Jan 2021)

Some more on the conflict and lessons to be learned https://www.civilnet.am/news/2020/1...pcnBNu0jWekSNIa5nyx0tSRSu6H-y3UsXwSkQyqNVG4VU


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## daftandbarmy (5 Jan 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Some more on the conflict and lessons to be learned https://www.civilnet.am/news/2020/1...pcnBNu0jWekSNIa5nyx0tSRSu6H-y3UsXwSkQyqNVG4VU


Whew.... that's a tough read. 

Good thing we're buying a new pistol because that's, like, super important in modern conflicts like this, right?


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## a_majoor (7 Mar 2021)

A video summarizing the coflict:


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## daftandbarmy (9 Mar 2021)

a_majoor said:


> A video summarizing the coflict:



So they bought the drones in May and used them, very successfully, in action in September?

I think we need a 'developing world' style procurement and deployment system like that


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## CBH99 (9 Mar 2021)

They looked at a product and said "Hey, these will come in handy if we find ourselves in a war.  Let's negotiate a price and buy them."  BOOM.  DONE.  Doesn't look like a lot of f**kery behind the scenes.

I agree 100%.  If by developing world, you mean common sense & efficient


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