# Picture on CBC



## RubberTree (31 Aug 2014)

I was reading this article today:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/joining-the-military-jarring-for-some-aboriginals-report-1.2751791

which I don't find particularly insightful or shocking, but I'm curious about the picture at the top of the article. Why would the flags be resting on the ground?
Any thoughts? 
Thanks, 
RT


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## Old EO Tech (31 Aug 2014)

It's during a present arms to a VIP, in this case likely either the PPCLI CinC or the CoR.


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## Michael OLeary (31 Aug 2014)

Dipping of Colours will only occur during Royal or State Salutes given to

a.   HM The Queen; HRH Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh; HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother 
b.   Other Members of the Royal Family
c.   Foreign Sovereigns and Members of Reigning Foreign Families; Presidents and Heads of State of Commonwealth and Foreign Countries 
d.   Governor-General of Canada
e.   Governor-Generals of Commonwealth Countries
f.    Lieutenant-Governor of a Canadian Province within sphere of jurisdiction 

During salutes to "lesser personages" such as the prime Minister and others down to GOFOs, the Colour (or flags if carried in lieu of) will be let fly during the general salute.

_A-AD-200-000/AG-000, The Honours, Flags and Heritage Structure of the Canadian Forces 
Chapter 13, Annex A_


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## RubberTree (31 Aug 2014)

Seen, thank-you both. I was under the impression that flags were NEVER supposed to touch the ground. Obviously there are exceptions.
RT


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## RedcapCrusader (31 Aug 2014)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> I was reading this article today:
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/joining-the-military-jarring-for-some-aboriginals-report-1.2751791
> 
> which I don't find particularly insightful or shocking, but I'm curious about the picture at the top of the article. Why would the flags be resting on the ground?
> ...



Flags and Colours are dipped for the Royal or State Salutes. You can read about it in the CFP 200 The Honors Flags And Heritage Structure Of The Canadian Forces



> Colours and Flags shall be dipped for:
> 
> - HM The Queen;
> HRH Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh;
> ...



This article is basically just a "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh it was too hard and I didn't get to be special little snowflake."

*Edit:* Oops, O'Leary beat me


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Aug 2014)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> This article is basically just a "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh it was too hard and I didn't get to be special little snowflake."



Is this speaking from your VAST experiences in the CAF?  What makes you any kind of fucking expert on this subject, is that taught on PRES BMQs now, or are you just talking out of your ass in the hopes of impressing someone.

I'm betting on the second option, and IMO you should STFU.   :


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## RedcapCrusader (31 Aug 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Is this speaking from your VAST experiences in the CAF?  What makes you any kind of fucking expert on this subject, is that taught on PRES BMQs now, or are you just talking out of your ass in the hopes of impressing someone.
> 
> I'm betting on the second option, and IMO you should STFU.   :



I'm sorry, I forgot to put a "Sensitive Types, Avert Eyes" disclaimer :  Looks like you didn't take your Midol today.





> "...away from their families brought some aboriginal recruits to tears, says an internal study, while others got sick on the kinds of food served in mess halls."





> "...overwhelming to manage their schedules and pay their bills. Others complained about the rigour of military life..."



I was away from my family, it was a challenge adjusting to the rigours of military life all just the same after spending my entire life obviously not in the military. I missed a few bills for a bit. Where's my internal study? Where is my CBC article?

I did my training, and I pushed through and got over it. 

Edit: ...and before you go yelling some more, I have aboriginal blood in me.


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Aug 2014)

Well I'll tell you what, Mr RMC Drop-Out, Res BMQ qualified expert.  I am far from sensitive but I know a fucktard comment when I see one.  You make all the Midol comments you want.  I don't care if you have an eagle feather growing out your ass.  The comment you made was fuckin stupid.  

You pushed through what exactly. Come on, tell us.  What?  A reserve BMQ??   :rofl:  Please.  You're embarrassing yourself.

SOMETIMES...its okay to consider if what you said was actually fuckin' stupid, and not just post a retort while thumping on your cyber-chest.  It's okay to fuck up and say something stupid because we're all human; I've done and many others have too.  It looks worse when you try to justify it.


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## a_majoor (31 Aug 2014)

Sadly, what used to be a routine adjustment is now a semi traumatic event for some of the people coming through the pipe. I may actually have some sort of world record as a training platoon 2I/C; one candidate came sobbing off the bus with their VR memo _already written_ and in their hand at the start of one course.

Since I wasn't allowed to simply force that individual back on the bus, we ended up with a huge waste of time and rations while "counselling" the individual to the inevitable end (they got on the bus), which was rather distracting since I also had to manage the other 70 recruits in my "platoon".

I would like to lay a portion of responsibility on the recruiting for not screening the candidates better, and for not informing them of what to actually expect. The scene in "Private Benjamin" where she is told each recruit will have their own condo comes to mind....


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## RedcapCrusader (31 Aug 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Well I'll tell you what, Mr RMC Drop-Out, Res BMQ qualified expert.  I am far from sensitive but I know a fucktard comment when I see one.  You make all the Midol comments you want.  I don't care if you have an eagle feather growing out your ass.  The comment you made was fuckin stupid.
> 
> You pushed through what exactly. Come on, tell us.  What?  A reserve BMQ??   :rofl:  Please.  You're embarrassing yourself.
> 
> SOMETIMES...its okay to consider if what you said was actually fuckin' stupid, and not just post a retort while thumping on your cyber-chest.  It's okay to fuck up and say something stupid, it looks worse when you try to justify it.



Please, do go on and elaborate just how my comment was stupid. You have nothing to offer other than insults and "hurr hurr that was fucken stupid there guy" and an awful assumption of my career portfolio.


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Aug 2014)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Sadly, what used to be a routine adjustment is now a semi traumatic event for some of the people coming through the pipe. I may actually have some sort of world record as a training platoon 2I/C; one candidate came sobbing off the bus with their VR memo _already written_ and in their hand at the start of one course.
> 
> Since I wasn't allowed to simply force that individual back on the bus, we ended up with a huge waste of time and rations while "counselling" the individual to the inevitable end (they got on the bus), which was rather distracting since I also had to manage the other 70 recruits in my "platoon".
> 
> I would like to lay a portion of responsibility on the recruiting for not screening the candidates better, and for not informing them of what to actually expect. The scene in "Private Benjamin" where she is told each recruit will have their own condo comes to mind....



Not to burst your bubble, but when I went thru Basic in Cornwallis back 25 years ago in Jul-Oct 1989, we had the same thing happen with recruits from small towns and cities all across Canada too.  When I was an Instructor at CFLRS back a few years ago, SURPRISE...same thing.  Same experience teaching in Gagetown thru the 90s...

This isn't just limited to aboriginal recruits and it didn't just start happening yesterday.  I've taught on more BMQs than I can count on 2 hands and there is always a few who get cold feet, whatever.

Can I imagine that it is worse for some (and a higher % of) aboriginal recruits coming in from remote areas?  I sure can.  Reverse the situation, and put yourself in their environment and a daily routine completely out of your control.  Arctic tundra or somewhere.  How many "city kids" would adapt well?  I'm laughing in a way because most of them would mentally crumble as soon as they lost cell service.

 :2c:


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## Eye In The Sky (31 Aug 2014)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> Please, do go on and elaborate just how my comment was stupid. You have nothing to offer other than insults and "hurr hurr that was fucken stupid there guy" and an awful assumption of my career portfolio.



Not required, the stupidity of it speaks for itself.  If you think that attitude is fine and dandy, that's your problem to deal with, not mine.  You're not one of my subordinates, but hopefully someone in 15 MP Coy will sit you down and explain.


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## OldSolduer (31 Aug 2014)

RubberTree said:
			
		

> I was reading this article today:
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/joining-the-military-jarring-for-some-aboriginals-report-1.2751791
> 
> which I don't find particularly insightful or shocking, but I'm curious about the picture at the top of the article. Why would the flags be resting on the ground?
> ...



It's ridiculous....almost all recruits find joining the military a jarring experience. It's a culture shock.


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## George Wallace (31 Aug 2014)

Let's face it; that article is fairly well relevant to all recruits.  Remove the word "aboriginal" from the text and if necessary replace it with "new member", "recruit", whatever, and you will have what a great majority of young people go through when they first leave the comforts of home, be it in small town Canada, a farm, or even a Reserve.  They all go through that.  

There are many segments of our society that have some cultural differences that may differ greatly from what the military will be teaching the young recruits from those populations.


Another "Slow News Day" for the most part.    


[edit]

I guess the question of 'demographics' has been covered now.  Different wording, faster typing by some, but the same overall sentiment.


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## brihard (31 Aug 2014)

RedcapCrusader said:
			
		

> Edit: ...and before you go yelling some more, I have aboriginal blood in me.



Most of us probably do if you dig hard enough a few generations back to find that 'awkward family story' that doesn't get told in polite company. I don't think that's particularly relevant. What is your experience living within an aboriginal community and culture, in an aboriginal family structure, that allows you to so cavalierly dismiss this article?

From the outside looking in, I'm not going to be so dismissive of it. Is joining the military a culture shock for everybody? Absolutely. However I have no trouble at all believing it would be a much bigger shock for someone growing up on a reserve than in a town or city. No less of a shock, I suspect, than a nurse, teacher, or police officer who becomes one of a handful of white people who suddenly finds themselves sent to a remote reserve for a couple years.

I'm making no value judgements here. I simply don't think that what the report brings up is invalid. It's in Canada's national interest to offer more opportunity to our aboriginal population, and that of course should include the military. I see no problem with a bit of introspection to find out what obstacles there are, and whether any of those obstacles are ones that can be easily remedied without hurting the institution. If it can net us more good soldiers, it's worth looking at, n'est-ce pas?


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## Old EO Tech (31 Aug 2014)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Dipping of Colours will only occur during Royal or State Salutes given to
> 
> a.   HM The Queen; HRH Prince Philip, The Duke of Edinburgh; HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother
> b.   Other Members of the Royal Family
> ...



The Lt Gov of Alberta was at the PPCLI 100th Parade, so the dipping of the colours would have been for him.


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## stealthylizard (1 Sep 2014)

A combined total of 35 people took part in the survey.


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## ModlrMike (1 Sep 2014)

I would agree that much in the article can apply to any recruit.

Having supported one of the first ever Bold Eagle cohorts, I can attest that there are issues unique to the Aboriginal recruit that don't apply to recruits who enroll from more metropolitan areas. From that narrow perspective, I think the article has some validity. That being said, with a sample size of 35, the data is scarcely enough to base a fully formed thesis on.


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## chrisf (1 Sep 2014)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> a farm



I can't speak for all recruits everywhere, but from the dozen or so BMQ courses I've taught, I've never seen anyone raised on a farm suffer much of a culture shock on joining the military...

Conversely, if folks from one social group/background have significantly less issues adapting to a military life style, it's entirely possible another group might have more issues... not that those issues will be unique to just that group, but it's entirely possible that they may be more prone to those issues.


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## Cloud Cover (5 Sep 2014)

Big whoop. I'm pretty certain I felt like crying and bolting when they shaved my head and called me hippie names back in 83, when that stupid pony tail hair of mine fell to the floor. At the end of it all, I was very disappointed that they didn't let us kill anybody like they promised we could do to our Soviet counterparts. Recruit training is a life lasting transformation of mind, body, spirit and soul. Anybody's son/daughter will do ...


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## Lightguns (5 Sep 2014)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> A combined total of 35 people took part in the survey.



This is the best comment on this story so far.  Yup, recruit life is jarring even more so now, for those from remote places because of diet and culture, for those from cities because of hard physical work and lack of connectivity.  The survey, however, is meaningless.   There were times, after 9 years of PPCLI, on my basic officer when I wanted to cry and run away, it is the nature of the beast.


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