# How does the army issue weapons?



## Mosullivan15 (13 Sep 2015)

So I'm just curious about how the army issues weapons. 
Does devery infantry soldier get a pistol?
Can you decide which varient of the C7 you get?
Can you choose between the C7 or C8?

Thank you alll for your time.


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## dangerboy (13 Sep 2015)

To keep it simple the answer to all your questions is "No".  In the infantry your Section Comd will decide if you are a rifleman or a C9 gunner.  The majority of time you will get issued a C7A2.  Pistols are only issued to certain people, the average rifleman will not be carrying a pistol.


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## the 48th regulator (13 Sep 2015)

Good question, as we have many people on these means that are more than experienced to answer that question, Mosullivan15.

But please Trust me, Dangerboy is very knowledgeable and his answer, I am sure, is bang on


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## medicineman (13 Sep 2015)

To answer the question in another way, I go to the weapons lock up when told to and then draw and sign for the personal weapon assigned to me.  At present for me, as a Sgt medic, it's rack 41, a plain old everyday C7A2 without any special accoutrements.

MM


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## Tibbson (14 Sep 2015)

You have to remember too that as you go through your career and collect more points you will find better weapons along the way.  And there are often med kits prepositioned around the training area if you need a quick boost.


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## SeaKingTacco (14 Sep 2015)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> You have to remember too that as you go through your career and collect more points you will find better weapons along the way.  And there are often med kits prepositioned around the training area if you need a quick boost.



Best. Post. Ever.


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## McG (14 Sep 2015)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> You have to remember too that as you go through your career and collect more points you will find better weapons along the way.  And there are often med kits prepositioned around the training area if you need a quick boost.


It's all too easy once you have the BFG.  All the fun is in the chainsaw.


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## cupper (14 Sep 2015)

You should also check out the costs for purchasing weapons and accessories. You can get better stuff quicker if you buy credits.


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## Colin Parkinson (14 Sep 2015)

Polishing of bits of brass, your NCO's boots and any knobs hanging around will earn you experience and credits.  :nod:

All kidding aside, forget everything you have learned about the military from video games and movies. The first thing they teach you is how to look after yourself and your kit. Go to the library and start reading books about the Canadian military history, this will help understand what solider is like. There are some good ones out about the Afghanistan conflict.


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## BinRat55 (14 Sep 2015)

Ok ok ok... one Call of Duty reference is funny, two is kinda cheeky, but lets remember that this question is on a lot of newbie's minds. 

No, you cannot purchase and use your own personal weapons in the CAF - you use what is issued. Most small arms (SA) is issued based on trade, position and necessity. As a general rule (I say general because a CO can change this on his or her say-so) 9mm pistols are issued only to a WO or above. C7 (as medicinman states) is our service weapon. As far a "variant" is concerned, we use the C7A2. The old C7 with the carrying handle has been phased out.

Some trades never actually get issued a weapon. We get one to qualify on the range once a year if we happen to be on a base where a range is accessable. Other times we actually do the COD thing (kinda) and shoot on a simulator. Enjoyable, however NOT the real thing. 

If your position requires you to train with a weapon, upon clearing into your unit you are given a rack number. You draw your weapon for cleaning and maintenance, TOETs, weight bearing marches, ranges and training (exercises and stuff...)

Most of the older sods here this is second nature to, but we must remember that there is still a little "sexiness" to what we do and civilians and the like are curious.


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## George Wallace (14 Sep 2015)

Also:

Your unit can not issue a weapon that it does not hold.  If your unit doesn't have it, you are not going to get it.


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## BinRat55 (14 Sep 2015)

That might be why I don't carry that Desert Eagle I have been wanting for some time now...

I should put in an ECR...


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## Haggis (14 Sep 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> That might be why I don't carry that Desert Eagle I have been wanting for some time now...
> 
> I should put in an ECR...



... and log onto Logistik Unicorps for your black suit and tie.


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## BinRat55 (14 Sep 2015)

:rofl:

Love it!!


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## my72jeep (15 Sep 2015)

Bin rat just for you.


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## BinRat55 (16 Sep 2015)

Yer ALL a bunch of teases...

Ya filthy animals!!


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## BinRat55 (16 Sep 2015)

My issue is this:


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## Pusser (16 Sep 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> My issue is this:



Compensating for something else that's too big?


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## Jarnhamar (16 Sep 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> My issue is this:



"Sorry, operational units only"


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## BinRat55 (16 Sep 2015)

Lol!!

So, to tie it all up for the OP, we get what we get if we need it. We will be told if we need it. We will be told when we need it. We will be told what "it" is. Then, we will be taught how to shoot "it", clean "it" and care for "it".

That's pretty much "it"!


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## cupper (16 Sep 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> My issue is this:



That must be a real ass kicker when you are humping through the boonies. ;D


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## BinRat55 (16 Sep 2015)

Yes, but you should see the ammo!!


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## Mosullivan15 (16 Sep 2015)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Compensating for something else that's too big?



No, it's a full sized gun. He just has really big hands.


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## Nfld Sapper (21 Sep 2015)

this is what I get..... ;D


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## Kat Stevens (21 Sep 2015)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Lol!!
> 
> So, to tie it all up for the OP, we get what we get if someone without the slightest clue what our requirements are decides we need it. We will be told if we need it. We will be told when we need it. We will be told what "it" is. Then, we will be taught how to shoot "it", clean "it" and care for "it".
> 
> That's pretty much "it"!



Slight edit for reality's sake.


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## dapaterson (21 Sep 2015)

My preference.


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## BinRat55 (22 Sep 2015)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Slight edit for reality's sake.



Love the edit Kat - so true!


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## BinRat55 (22 Sep 2015)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> My preference.



This thing is AWESOME!!! What is the stock code? Can I get this outta the depot? Wild!!! My RSM wouldn't hear me comin!!  8)


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## Nfld Sapper (22 Sep 2015)

Does it come with the wookiee too?


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## expeditionary (21 Feb 2016)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Pistols are only issued to certain people, the average rifleman will not be carrying a pistol.



How does an REG NCM INF get issued a pistol? 

Is it possible in a three (3) year VIE?


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## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2016)

As an infantry soldier you'll probably get issued a pistol if you find yourself a member of a platoon or company weapons detachment team.
Riflemen don't often get issued pistols.

Some people love them and think they're awesome, others think it's extra weight and something else to get rust on or lost.


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## George Wallace (21 Feb 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> How does an REG NCM INF get issued a pistol?
> 
> Is it possible in a three (3) year VIE?



Somehow, I get the impression that you think that you get to take your weapon home with you.  If so, you are wrong.  

The weapons that you will be issued will depend on what your specific 'job' will be in an Infantry unit.  It will be issued from the unit stores when you need to use it, and stored there when you are not using it.  What position you fill in an Infantry unit, will dictate what specific weapons you will carry.  Throughout your career, those weapons may change.


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## MedCorps (21 Feb 2016)

PER Point for Leading Change coming here... standby. 

Lets create a field in EMMA, My Career where the user can select the top three weapons they want to carry. Then the Pl Comd / Coy Comd / Bn Comd or their associated staff can run analysis on MonitorMass / HRMS to figure out how to employ people based on weapons desire / how many of each weapons system they need to hold in their units weapon lockup.  We could even have a sub-field under the weapons choices as to mitigating circumstances why you want / do not want a weapons system issued (weak spine - no heavy weapons, scared of loosing small items - no pistol, or psychopath - Carl Gustav requested).  

Just kidding... unless it gets me a PER point. 

MC


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## runormal (21 Feb 2016)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> PER Point for Leading Change coming here... standby.
> 
> Lets create a field in EMMA, My Career where the user can select the top three weapons they want to carry. Then the Pl Comd / Coy Comd / Bn Comd or their associated staff can run analysis on MonitorMass / HRMS to figure out how to employ people based on weapons desire / how many of each weapons system they need to hold in their units weapon lockup.  We could even have a sub-field under the weapons choices as to mitigating circumstances why you want / do not want a weapons system issued (weak spine - no heavy weapons, scared of loosing small items - no pistol, or psychopath - Carl Gustav requested).
> 
> ...



Why stop there? You forgot colours, attachments  >


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## Jarnhamar (21 Feb 2016)

We would save money and ammunition if we assigned recruits C7a2's that followed them throughout their career.


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## Haggis (21 Feb 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We would save money and ammunition if we assigned recruits C7A2's that followed them throughout their career.



Let's take this one step further.  Once the soldier qualifies on their personal weapon, they receive an "Accessory Allowance - Small Arms" with which to buy, well, accessories.  Fail your annual PWT, lose your allowance.

How's that for "Leading Change"?


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## MedCorps (21 Feb 2016)

runormal said:
			
		

> Why stop there? You forgot colours, attachments  >



I am not sharing my leading change PER points with you, even if I happen to adopt your idea in my briefing note.  

MC


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## expeditionary (22 Feb 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> The weapons that you will be issued will depend on what your specific 'job' will be in an Infantry unit.  It will be issued from the unit stores when you need to use it, and stored there when you are not using it.  What position you fill in an Infantry unit, will dictate what specific weapons you will carry.  Throughout your career, those weapons may change.



Groovy, thanks for clearing that up! 

Which NCM positions in a unit/section carry sidearms? 

Is this question too case/scenario specific? I'd just imagine, "Carrying something big, heavy? Here, take this in case..."


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## expeditionary (22 Feb 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We would save money and ammunition if we assigned recruits C7a2's that followed them throughout their career.



+1

Money aside, at least that intrinsic bond would be developed, revered by soldiers throughout the ages.

You can also attribute this logic to any tool in any trade.


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## Haggis (22 Feb 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> Money aside, at least that intrinsic bond would be developed, revered by soldiers throughout the ages.



But what if your "lifetime" weapon broke and you became intimately attached to it's replacement?  Wouldn't that be like cheating on your lifetime weapon?  What would you say/do with your replacement when your lifetime weapon came back from the Armourer?  Would your relationship with your lifetime weapon be the same afterwards?


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## MJP (22 Feb 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> We would save money and ammunition if we assigned recruits C7a2's that followed them throughout their career.



Where is the money savings?

Within that discussion of savings please include all shipping costs IAW with the regulations, for the sake of the argument assume that 70% of all weapons shipments will be by DND milkrun and the remaining 25% by commercial carriers.  5% will be air expedited because of time constraints or poor planning.

Also talk about the opportunity cost of the manhours used to prep, ship and receive those weapons at all levels in the chain of custody.


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## Haggis (22 Feb 2016)

MJP said:
			
		

> Within that discussion of savings please include all shipping costs IAW with the regulations, for the sake of the argument assume that 70% of all weapons shipments will be by DND milkrun and the remaining 25% by commercial carriers.  5% will be air expedited because of time constraints or poor planning.



Each soldier would be responsible for shipping their weapon, properly secured, of course, from place to place.  This would be covered by either the cost move envelope on posting or by the incidentals allowance on TD.


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## McG (22 Feb 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Each soldier would be responsible for shipping their weapon, properly secured, of course, from place to place.  This would be covered by either the cost move envelope on posting or by the incidentals allowance on TD.


... so, you would take money from soldiers' pockets to needlessly move weapons around the country without adding cost to the crown?

But lets forget shipping costs.  There are hundreds of service personnel posted to training establishemts, HQs and bases without a personal weapon being assigned.  If one wanted to permanently assign everyone a weapon for the duration of their career, then we will need to buy a lot more rifles.  I don't think there are any savings to be had here.  There is only headache.


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## MJP (22 Feb 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Each soldier would be responsible for shipping their weapon, properly secured, of course, from place to place.  This would be covered by either the cost move envelope on posting or by the incidentals allowance on TD.


We aren't talking about fantasy, it would require a major rewrite of the security regulations pertaining to storage and control of weapons. It is about the most unlikely scenario to happen. 

But to play your little game, that covers cost moves what about courses where weapons are required?


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## Haggis (22 Feb 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> ... so, you would take money from soldiers' pockets to needlessly move weapons around the country without adding cost to the crown?



The Crown would be paying that money out regardless as part of the cost move package or the Incidentals allowance.  It's not an incremental cost.  And, as for "taking money out of the soldier's pockets", one must clearly understand that the Incidentals allowance is not "income" it's an allowance to cover unforeseen minor expenses while on TD.  it covers stuff like internet café charges, valet services, laundry etc.


			
				MJP said:
			
		

> We aren't talking about fantasy, it would require a major rewrite of the security regulations pertaining to storage and control of weapons. It is about the most unlikely scenario to happen.



Why?  Many police and peace officers travel the country daily for training and assignments with their service weapons in tow, on commercial airlines, in private cars and the like.  They are completely in compliance with the Firearms Act and their particular agency/police force regulations.  Many civilians do likewise with restricted and, in some cases, prohibited weapons.



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> But to play your little game, that covers cost moves what about courses where weapons are required?



The member would transport their weapons as stated above, with the costs covered out of the unit TD.  There would, of course, be a need for "loaner" weapons at each training establishment for those members who do not have a "lifetime" weapon.


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## McG (22 Feb 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> The Crown would be paying that money out regardless as part of the cost move package or the Incidentals allowance.  It's not an incremental cost.  And, as for "taking money out of the soldier's pockets", one must clearly understand that the Incidentals allowance is not "income" it's an allowance to cover unforeseen minor expenses while on TD.  it covers stuff like internet café charges, valet services, laundry etc.


If you impose a new expense on soldiers without increasing the allowance which compensates, then you are taking money from thier pockets.  So, would you take money from soldiers' pockets to needlessly move weapons around the country without adding cost to the crown?


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## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2016)

MJP said:
			
		

> Where is the money savings?



Ammunition.
We're constantly re-zeroing weapons. I'm not talking about minor adjustments but the ranges you run where people aren't even hitting in the same time zone let alone on paper.  
Time is money and time is wasted trying to sort them out with weapons they've never touched before. Personalized weapons would be reasonable zeroed at all times.

People are also always showing up to the ranges with weapons they've just signed out that day and something is wrong with the gun. Sight is messed up, ejector is messed up.  For whatever reason the person before broke it and it didn't get reported or it was reported and forgotten about. 

I'm willing to bet we'll save money on maintenance and repair too. People will treat their guns better then it's "theirs" and not just theirs for a few months or the year they're in a specific company, squadron etc..  A more tangible reflection of how they take care of their stuff. Personally I try and take care of my rifle at work like I do my own personal firearms. It's eternally frustrating switching companies and getting issued a rifle that looks like a caveman used for a tool.

As far as shipping costs have them carry it with them as Haggis alluded to. Sign the rifle out of where they're leaving and sign it into where they're going.


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## Haggis (22 Feb 2016)

MCG said:
			
		

> If you impose a new expense on soldiers without increasing the allowance which compensates, then you are taking money from thier pockets.  So, would you take money from soldiers' pockets to needlessly move weapons around the country without adding cost to the crown?



Okay, then, make it a claimable expense like "excess baggage".


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## dangerboy (22 Feb 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Ammunition.
> We're constantly re-zeroing weapons. I'm not talking about minor adjustments but the ranges you run where people aren't even hitting in the same time zone let alone on paper.
> Time is money and time is wasted trying to sort them out with weapons they've never touched before. Personalized weapons would be reasonable zeroed at all times.



Are you using the culminator?  It is a good tool to ensure that will help boresight the sight so that you should be hitting paper.  Then at the end of the range use it to record the sight setting so you can confrirm that your sight is still zeroed.


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## MJP (22 Feb 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> As far as shipping costs have them carry it with them as Haggis alluded to. Sign the rifle out of where they're leaving and sign it into where they're going.



Neither you or Haggis get to rewrite the security rules so I will stick to status quo and stay grounded in reality unlike your idea of  wishing away real problems cause they are hard. 

Like many things on Army.ca that get ramped up to absurd levels this is a complete non starter.  Fun to hash about but IMHO not feasiable nor really desirable.


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## LightFighter (22 Feb 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> Groovy, thanks for clearing that up!
> 
> Which NCM positions in a unit/section carry sidearms?
> 
> Is this question too case/scenario specific? I'd just imagine, "Carrying something big, heavy? Here, take this in case..."



Why are you so interested in a pistol? 

As a brand new Pte in the battalion, don't expect to get a position where you will be issued one. You may get an opportunity to shoot a Browning during a range though, also I believe it is still taught in DP1.

Examples of an Infantry Pte/Cpl who may get a pistol is a C6 Gunner, and 9TAC crew.


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Feb 2016)

This thread is just getting too goofy.


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## Jarnhamar (22 Feb 2016)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Are you using the culminator?  It is a good tool to ensure that will help boresight the sight so that you should be hitting paper.  Then at the end of the range use it to record the sight setting so you can confrirm that your sight is still zeroed.


As often as we can get our hands on them. One of the bigger issues is when other units show up to slide members in.



			
				MJP said:
			
		

> Neither you or Haggis get to rewrite the security rules so I will stick to status quo and stay grounded in reality unlike your idea of  wishing away real problems cause they are hard.


Shit, and here I just Emailed my proposition to rewrite the rules to General Vance  

We should treat our guns with respect bordering on reverence, not throwing them in the back of MLVWs like cut wood. Or rolling them up in body bags and piling them on top of each other in the back of a bus. Issuing weapons to soldiers on a permanent or semi-permanent would create more accountability for the condition of the gun, improve accuracy, save ammunition and time.

If I'm deploying with a gun to a combat zone I want to know the guy before me didn't clean the chamber by grinding his Gerber in a circle.  Maybe it might work a bit better from a combat arms point of view where we're not posted as much as support trades.


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> But what if your "lifetime" weapon broke and you became intimately attached to it's replacement?  Wouldn't that be like cheating on your lifetime weapon?  What would you say/do with your replacement when your lifetime weapon came back from the Armourer?  Would your relationship with your lifetime weapon be the same afterwards?



Though provoking questions...

Ugh. Please leave "cheating" for the woman in my life to haunt me of guilt for the rest of my life. At the end of the day, it's a tool, and it's intrinsic value rests on its ability to go *boom* when it needs to.

Ideally, what and how to fix would be taught to everyone issued one [lets keep this to combat trades]. So, not only to do you use, but you learn how to repair, what the common breaks are (so they don't break), and what breaks are so far gone, you have to just say goodbye for the sake of combat effectiveness. 

All points aside, intrinsic value is a personal representation, and if it exists on a material object, it's matter of opinion [as everything in life!]. I, for instance, would love my rifle issued to me in basic till I was out. I would love my rifle even if I pointed right and it shot left, I'd learn the nuisances of it, and excel within them.


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## expeditionary (23 Feb 2016)

LightFighter said:
			
		

> Examples of an Infantry Pte/Cpl who may get a pistol is a C6 Gunner, and 9TAC crew.



Cool! Thanks! 



			
				LightFighter said:
			
		

> Why are you so interested in a pistol?



I've been in love with this for a very, very long time.


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## sarahsmom (23 Feb 2016)

So why not get your FAC and PAL civvy side, and then go and buy yourself your dream pistol?


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## medicineman (23 Feb 2016)

Paleo, you beat me to it...

On a bit of a side note, that is not the variant we use in the CAF.

MM


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## BinRat55 (23 Feb 2016)

expeditionary said:
			
		

> Cool! Thanks!
> 
> I've been in love with this for a very, very long time.



Lol... you can have it! IMO next to the Steyr, worst weapon I have ever had to care for (I fired the Styeyr I didn't "care for it")


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## Colin Parkinson (7 Mar 2016)

Actually with a commercial safety and sights, it's decent handgun, points nice and accurate. It is dated though and not up to high volume use as early IPSC competitors found out.


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## BinRat55 (7 Mar 2016)

Walther PPK


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## Blackadder1916 (7 Mar 2016)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Walther PPK



If you're going to show the PPK, it should be within a proper cultural context.


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## BinRat55 (8 Mar 2016)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> If you're going to show the PPK, it should be within a proper cultural context.



Well played Q, well played!


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## ArmouredAnger (28 Jul 2016)

Hey everyone. This was an interesting and insightful thread, thanks for the information.

I'm wondering though, how does this work for reserve units. I've watched the infantry demo video on the forces.ca website, and the soldier was saying "We're issued our personal weapon and taught how to clean it and take it apart etc".. But he was regular force.

So in the reserves do you still get a personal weapon issued to you specifically? Or would you all just share weapons?


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## LightFighter (28 Jul 2016)

Each person in the unit would/should have a rifle issued to them and they would draw that same rifle out for training, ranges, etc. 

The M203, C9, C6, shotgun, and BHP probably wouldn't be assigned to anyone, and you would get which ever one the CQ staff hands you. 

That's been my experience with the Reserves anyways, others may vary.


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## RedcapCrusader (28 Jul 2016)

ArmouredAnger said:
			
		

> Hey everyone. This was an interesting and insightful thread, thanks for the information.
> 
> I'm wondering though, how does this work for reserve units. I've watched the infantry demo video on the forces.ca website, and the soldier was saying "We're issued our personal weapon and taught how to clean it and take it apart etc".. But he was regular force.
> 
> So in the reserves do you still get a personal weapon issued to you specifically? Or would you all just share weapons?



Personal weapon is a little misleading. You don't get to take it home or use it whenever you desire, it's a weapon that's assigned to you and you use it and care for it. I was issued C8A3 #11 4 years ago, I know exactly how it balances and what parts are sticky so to keep them moist in the field, I know how everything goes back together and the sight is dialed in real nice and tight. They only time someone else touches that rifle is if it's being shipped for exercise or at the Weapon Tech for repair (rare). 

But, we take them out for a few hours on a Wednesday night, do some training and drills, then sign them back into the vault.


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## ArmouredAnger (29 Jul 2016)

Exactly what I wanted to know thank you guys.


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