# Duties and Responsibilities of a junior Corporal



## Pikache (15 Aug 2004)

This is a rather serious topic that some of my peers and I have been thinking about for some time as it is very unclear (at least to me) and never been quite explained to newly promoted corporals as to what the heck are they suppose to do in regards to dealing with privates and private recruits.

The new reserve thing is that a soldier can be promoted to corporal after 2 yrs since date of enlistment and I believe with CO's recommendation. I don't agree with it, in most parts as I believe in a lot of cases it puts inexperienced soldiers who cannot handle duties and responsibilities of a corporal.
I personally believe that with only 2 and half years of exp under my belt, I do not qualify to be a corporal.

Well, that depends on what is today's CF definition of what a corporal should be, at least in the reserve world.

My RSM tells me that I am a junior NCO and responsible partly guiding and teaching new privates to the best of my ability. As I may be slated as section 2i/c with up to 6 or so newly trained privates in section, I take this duty seriously. Traditionally the rank of corporal is the beginning of being an NCO and it still is in a lot of armies around the world.

Well, some soldiers including a lot of my fellow junior corporals think that a corporal is mere senior private and therefore keep his mouth shut, even if a private has glaring faults showing.
It seems to me that to most people, at least in reserves think that to qualify to 'teach' a troop, one must be PLQ/JLC qualified.

Considering how unimpressed with some of the soldiers being turned out to my experience and I do see a lot of soldiers as CQ staff, for example, failing to halt properly after 6 weeks of instruction, how can I not correct a troop telling him to do a halt properly? 
Is it my responsibility to see that I should help a private be the best soldier he can be by showing him his faults or has "Never Pass a Fault" become irrelevant?

I don't consider myself a supersoldier (Marauder can attest to that ) and no one is more critical of my faults more than myself. 

But considering how much flak I'm catching for showing a recruit his faults (or jacking up as some people seems to think) and think I'm powertripping, I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm a junior NCO with rank of Corporal or mere senior private who is called a corporal.


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## Madevilz (15 Aug 2004)

Does your unit have an insufficient number of MCpl? Because having a Cpl as a 2ic kinda shows it. As for your question, I see the rank as a mere senior private who is called a corporal as you say it. Years ago, to earn the rank of CPL you needed at least another qualification, and as stated above, nowadays, you dont need it anymore. Unless you are a CPL with many years of experience and a tour of duty, you're nothing more but a private with some experience in his pocket.


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## Arctic Acorn (15 Aug 2004)

Nowhere in the QR&O's does it say that a Corporal is "merely a senior private". A corporal outranks a private, end of story. I'm not suggesting that corporals should lord it over Private soldiers. Personally, I view it as a type of mentorship. If a corporal sees a Private doing something wrong/incorrect/illegal/whatever, it is their responsibility to sort it out as best they can. If a Corporal is with a group of private soldiers, then the corporal is expected to be responsible for that group as the senior person, and therefore in charge. 

In my (admittedly limited) experience with the military, the authority of a Corporal is generally delegated by the higher chain of command to fill a position within a unit of accomplish a tasking, and a solid chain of command will support any honest corporal doing his job. 

Anyone agree, disagree?


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## clasper (15 Aug 2004)

RoyalHighlandFusilier:

If you are section 2I/C, you are absolutely responsible for making sure your section mates are learning as much as possible and performing up to standard.  Discuss it with your section commander (because you don't want to step on his toes) but you need to mentor, teach, or jack up as required.  You should be mentoring most of the time, but the other two are tools you shouldn't ignore (or have unavailable to you by rule).

When dealing with newbies from other sections, it's a little fuzzier.  Yelling across the armouries at Bloggins to do up his pocket is definitely on the "power trip" end of the spectrum, but a little friendly professional advice to the guy next to you shouldn't be a problem (unless his section commander is on the other side of him, giving him advice also...)  Somewhere in the middle of those extremes, is a line you shouldn't cross, but most of us have at one time or another.  All part of the learning experience in determining what your leadership style is going to be.

And the assertion that you have to be JLC qualified to teach is absolute crap.  If you are a subject matter expert, you can teach.  JLC teaches you the basic format of a military lecture, but most people already know what these are since they've sat through hundreds of hours of them.  I was an instructor for a combat int course as a private.  I taught the PO on NATO map symbols (not exactly complex).  I was a better instructor after my JLC, but I don't think it should be an absolute prerequisite.

As a junior corporal in the infantry, you probably don't have the practice to give formal drill or weapons lectures (which are much more structured than general military knowledge classes), but most of the knowledge you pass on will be in an informal setting.  (Which is normally where the real learning takes place anyway.)

And finally, you will be much better prepared for your JLC (and you'll get more out of it) if you've already had some leadership experience.  If your job as a corporal was to always shut your mouth and do as you were told, JLC will not magically make you into a leader.  Everyone makes mistakes when they are first in a leadership position.  You may as well jump in with both feet and make them now.  They would be much more embarrassing as a newly minted MCpl.


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## Jarnhamar (15 Aug 2004)

From a reserve point of view I'd agree.

I've been told the rank of corporal is the first NCO technically as you can be put in charge of other soldiers where as supposedly a private you can't.   I'm not sure how accurate that is however. If a corporal see's   something wrong they should fix it. If a private see's something wrong they should fix it. As a corporal you have a little more authority over a private though. Guys don't seem to take the rank too seriously .

I also agree (as far as the reserves) the rank of corporal is *treated*as a glorified private. Theres corporals in the reserves who act and carry themselves like brand new privates.   I've heard quite a few privates go on and on about when they will be promoted to corporal, counting the months down. Once they get promoted nothing changes except their pay check. When you see a master corporal lacking basic soldier skills that privates should know i think it's safe to assume they didn't spend enough time as a corporal.

I think a corporal should be willing and actually able to act as a section commander if the need arises. A senior corporal should, with a little work, be able to act as a platoon warrant tempoairily in a pinch.

i think to be promoted to the rank of corporal a soldier should be qualified in a specific QL4 (drivers, machinegunners, comms etc..) as well as have some type of introduction to leadership course or set of classes.   It wouldn't have to be that in depth. Maybe a few training periods devoted to the theory of leadership, how to identify a problem and approach someone over it, the basics on running a section attack, how to do some admin work.


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## Arctic Acorn (15 Aug 2004)

Thats a great idea, Ghost. 

As the PLQ is modularised now, they could run the leadership module (or portions thereof) to senior couporals before they get loaded on the PLQ. It would be good for professional development, it gets a PLQ module out of the way, and it lays a bit of groundwork for corporals (especially ones who are a little unsure of their level of authority).


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## Infanteer (15 Aug 2004)

The problem with the rank of Corporal is that it is a gimme; anyone can get it for just kicking around.   That is why units have to take a sort of "ad hoc" way of using their Corporals.   Good ones who've figured some of the game out with the time in and experience can be put in leadership positions.   Although they are not officially qualified to do things like lead a section attack, march troops, or do admin, they can usually figure it out with a little guidence from section commanders and Platoon Warrants.   This is what my old reserve unit did; every section 2ic was a Corporal and one or two of the section commanders was a Corporal as well.   This came about do to the fact that we had a shortage of MCpls and Sgts and that we had a good whack of Corporals returning from time on operations with the Reg Force.

Less then stellar Corporals are treated as senior rifleman, they got the promotion for time in but still lack a good grasp on basic soldiering skills.   They can be given the first whack at things such as course senior, but they must still be supervised.   Obviously, the hope is that they use the extra time as Corporal's to develop their soldiering skills.   We had a few of these in my unit as well; they were the senior riflemen.

Obviously, the system is very unofficial with no hard and fast rules.   I don't like how it works, but if the leadership is on the ball, it can usually get the most out of its Corporal's in a manpower deficent system.

Obviously, the Reg Force works differently, but I have seen the same situation there as well.


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## Michael Dorosh (15 Aug 2004)

A corporal is a private with a pay raise.  He does have powers of authority over privates, but would be wise not to let it go to his head. Generally this authority is exercised under the supervision of someone with leadership training (MCpl and up).

As someone with a year or so of experience (or 17 in some cases ;D ) he is expected to set a standard for the privates to follow in terms of his drill, deportment, job knowledge, etc., and yes, the privates should be able to come to him for advice.


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## Scott (15 Aug 2004)

I think that Corporal is the journeyman rank within the Military (Or it's equivalent) They say that Sergeants run the Army but I would risk saying that without the Corporals things would quickly grind to a halt. There was one such fellow in my unit who was happy as a lark being a corporal, didn't want to progress, he ran the QM and that suited him just fine. He was a great guy to talk to because he had been with the unit for a long time and knew just about everyone in it. I have alot of respect for the corporals spot.

Cheers


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## Pikache (16 Aug 2004)

Hmmm... Few posts with no definite answers... and two big branches of thought...

I like Ghost's idea about basic leadership course of some sort for newly promoted corporals. Actually I got something like that back at my unit and it helped me a lot in understanding leadership somewhat and puts me thinking in that direction. (Well, at least I can take comfort in thinking that my unit RSM thinks I'm some sort of leader)

But we still haven't answered first question yet... Is corporal mere senior private or a junior NCO?

PS: No, I'm not section 2i/c yet. But most units are always hurting for MCpls/Sgts it seems and I find it not uncommon for senior corporals (and failing that, junior corporals) in 2i/c role and sometimes section commander role.


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## dutchie (16 Aug 2004)

To add my 2 cents to your original question Fusilier:

I would say that by default a Cpl is not a JNCO, but that with experience, ability, maturity, etc., the Senior Corporal (or an exceptional Jr. Corporal) would be given enough responsibility and authority to be considered a Jr. NCO.

If you are looking for a 'hard and fast' rule, or straight answer, the only one that can be given is "No-Corporals are not JNCO's'......but they are much more than an experienced Private....I like the 'Apprentice/Journeyman' analogy of the Pte/Cpl relationship.


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## Infanteer (16 Aug 2004)

It is hard in the militia to judge ranks by the term "senior" and "junior" due to the short time spent in those ranks (2 years each).  Often, a reg force private will have more time in then a reserve Master Corporal.  However, the answer to your question lies in the fact that both, either, or none of the two can be incompetent shitpumps.

Technically, the Corporal is the first step as a Junior NCO; technically a Master Corporal is a Corporal, appointed to the position of Master Corporal.  This is all residue from the old (a more clear) system we had before Hellyer threw it all into a blender.

Realistically, a Corporal (especially a reserve one) is a glorified private.  They have no official abilities so to speak of, any positions they are appointed to is through merit alone.  That being said, if as a Corporal, you are appointed as a section 2ic, don't let the fact that you are a "well trained rifleman" stop you from perform your required duties (of which sorting out a green private may be one).  If you are appointed in this position then you represent the NCO in charge of the section and can perform your duties on his behalf; that is why he designated you 2ic.  We do this in the reserves because manpower constraints force us too, it may be a "toothless" rank, but the authority of the position of the C-of-C dictates that there are some leadership roles to be addressed.  The Germans had Lieutenants commanding rifle battalions in the Second World War, do you think they was taken less seriously because they were "glorified platoon commanders".  

Know and master the requirements of your rank (in the Corporal's case, that of a rifleman) and carry out your appointed duties in the best and most efficient way possible (In some Corporal's cases, a section 2ic).


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## RCA (16 Aug 2004)

In actual fact, a Cpl is a "qualified" Pte. In my unit at least, promotion to Cpl is two yrs in and (old) QL4 which ever comes last. Therefore seeing two hooks tells you he/she has trades trg other then basic ie driver, comms, tech etc. I would argue Cpls are JNCOs (unofficially anyway) in that they are given leadership responsibilities ie small party tasking. Their potentail is first perceived by higher ups and determination are made who is slated to move forward. Pte can't be given these tasks just because they are Pte. As to Cpl being automatic, this is strictly unit policy, but Ptes can not take any PLQ MODs.


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## mclipper (16 Aug 2004)

I know that in my unit, promotion to Cpl was automatic for a long time (2 years and 2 QL4s), and then they changed it due to crses becoming more difficult to get loaded onto.  It became 2 years and 1 QL4.  However, it appears (finally) they are changing it again, and it is no longer automatic.  In fact, we have one person who has been in for almost 5 years (fully qualified and even has a tour), but is a sh@$-pump, and he has not been promoted.  We have had a few people, who took quite a while to get their Cpls.  According the powers that be.....some people could take longer.  We have very few MCpls, and they are now using Cpls as section comds in some situations.


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## Brad Sallows (17 Aug 2004)

Here are the magic words: "with CO's recommendation"

In the reserve, no promotion need be a "gimme" unless COs (collectively) permit it to be so.  You can sit around tables and argue about retention, training, authority, missing holes in the printed establishment, etc (and I've certainly done so), but at the end of the day the only gateway to promotion beyond competence that matters is the one in the CO's hand, occasionally with the RSM's hand reinforcing the CO's elbow.

PDR time is a good time to ask "Do you feel you are ready to assume the responsibilities of a <rank>?" or to state "I do not feel I have been adequately trained and prepared to be a <rank>".  If there is trust and frankness between superior and subordinate, deficiencies can be noted and plans made to overcome them.

An old acquaintance had what I believe to be the correct attitude (back when we were both corporals): while virtually everyone treated it as a "gimme, glorified private" rank for reservists, he made it his business to treat it as a leadership rank, to devote effort to acquiring the necessary skills and knowledge, and to conduct himself accordingly.  (Overcoming the perception of others toward the rank - particularly regulars, because there is a very real and broad capability, and hence credibility, gap - is the hardest part.)  You can wear the rank, or you can be it.


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## Michael Dorosh (17 Aug 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> It is hard in the militia to judge ranks by the term "senior" and "junior" due to the short time spent in those ranks (2 years each).  Often, a reg force private will have more time in then a reserve Master Corporal.  However, the answer to your question lies in the fact that both, either, or none of the two can be incompetent shitpumps.
> 
> Technically, the Corporal is the first step as a Junior NCO; technically a Master Corporal is a Corporal, appointed to the position of Master Corporal.  This is all residue from the old (a more clear) system we had before Hellyer threw it all into a blender.
> 
> ...



The Germans also had glorified privates - Gefreiter and Obergefreiter were pay raises, and did not include command responsiblities or NCO status.  Get this, however - a Corporal for Life in the Germany Army was called Stabsgefreiter and got to wear a special insignia.  This was a private who was in for at least 6 years but had no likelihood of being promoted to NCO rank.  He wore two chevrons and a rank pip - very much like our Master Corporal's insignia!    

It is useful to have a distinction between corporals and privates, at least in the reserves, but only marginally so.  In my case, I am one of those Stabsgefreiters (I was promoted to corporal in the 1980s!!) but in my role as company clerk rank is essentially meaningless.  I do the bidding of the CSM and Coy 2 i/c, I sometimes am required to "task" the platoon Warrants (ie getting strength returns or requesting info for nominal roles), but most importantly, my two stripes give me a flimsy veneer of authority over the newly joined privates whom I must help indoctrinate in the ways of administration.  Otherwise, I am a section of one - no one to command and that isn't such a bad thing.

Getting back to the Germans - they also had NCO platoon commanders, something unheard of in the Canadian Army - in fact, most of their platoon commanders - the vast majority - were NCOs by matter of design.  I guess having such low ranking junior commanders may have increased the need for different levels of private soldier?  It is an interesting question and a path of study rarely trodden.  I'd love to see someone write a book on ranks and responsibilities of the various armies, because we all do things slightly differently.

I agree that Canada's changes haven't been for the better since the 1950s, but arguably we are consistent with most NATO allies in that sergeants have the same responsibilities.


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## Sledge Hammer (17 Aug 2004)

Easy answer: Look up the "PDR" Template for Corporal, it will tell you all you need to know.


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## Michael Dorosh (17 Aug 2004)

Sledge Hammer said:
			
		

> Easy answer: Look up the "PDR" Template for Corporal, it will tell you all you need to know.



Wow, into the league on your first post...


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## Bruce Monkhouse (17 Aug 2004)

Michael...make it stop!!  ;D


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## Ex-Dragoon (17 Aug 2004)

Sledge Hammer said:
			
		

> Easy answer: Look up the "PDR" Template for Corporal, it will tell you all you need to know.



Oh my they are breeding!!!!  :


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## Infanteer (18 Aug 2004)

> Here are the magic words: "with CO's recommendation"
> 
> In the reserve, no promotion need be a "gimme" unless COs (collectively) permit it to be so.   You can sit around tables and argue about retention, training, authority, missing holes in the printed establishment, etc (and I've certainly done so), but at the end of the day the only gateway to promotion beyond competence that matters is the one in the CO's hand, occasionally with the RSM's hand reinforcing the CO's elbow.



Brad, I am sure we both know that in many cases, especially with promotion to Corporal, the "CO's recommendation" is a rubber stamp.   Considering my old CO barely knew any of his 100 or so militia soldiers and had to ask a SNCO which ones had returned from operational deployment at a welcome back dinner (If you're going to know any of your soldiers, you may as well know the ones standing on the line...) I doubt he could take the time to seriously consider each promotion that came up with no real requirments except for time in.
I think for the most part the CO's recommendation is simply given away if a subordinate commander says "we should promote this guy".   Not that it is a bad thing, because CO's are obviously busy with various other things.   But my concern is what standards (if any) that the junior subordinates are passing up to the CO in order to gain his recommendation.   We had one CO's inspection where the Commanding Officer himself had to jack up some private for moving around while at the position of attention; he then subsequently promoted the lackluster private to Corporal.   I know this is merely a single case, but you can see how the notion of the "gimme" rank has come into being.


Michael, I'd really be interested in that study as well; if anything because to undertake such a study would require gaining an understanding into each Army's organizational culture, which is at the heart of fighting effectiveness.


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## The_Falcon (18 Aug 2004)

I think it depends on the individual Cpl, whether or not they are merely a glorified Pte or JNCO.  We recently had a whole batch of people promoted to Cpl, some of whom are completely useless, and throw around their rank at the HLDR's and Pte's.  We also have some Cpls who are bang on and exellent leaders.  Myself I don't see myself as a glorified Pte or a JNCO, I just do my job whatever that maybe.  However I have been very clear to people in my unit that for the time being I am not interested at all in any kind of leadership position or course.  I will perform a leadership role if needed, but I would prefer not to have those roles.


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## Brad Sallows (18 Aug 2004)

The point is that everyone - the COs, the people putting forward promotion recommendations, and the corporals - must collectively act if the rank is to have more importance than it currently appears to.


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## Sledge Hammer (18 Aug 2004)

Is there a problem with my post? If so come out with it, and dont hide behind your little sarcastic quips.


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## Spr.Earl (18 Aug 2004)

The duties of a Jnr.r Cp.l is to look after and help those Jnr. people with in his Sec. etc.
End of discussion.
Needs no more explanation.


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## portcullisguy (20 Aug 2004)

I am with Spr Earl on that one, and my fellow 48th.

A Cpl's job is to be the example and assist the Pte's below him in a sect.  Other than that, it is to do his or her job competently and professionally, whatever the task.  Being the example isn't necessarily a first step in being a JNCO or taking a leadership role.  It's a good, professional method of doing things that all experienced soldiers, whatever their rank, should be doing all the time, anyway.

There are Cpls who are plugs, same as any rank.  A MWO who is a plug has far more effect on far more people below them than a Cpl who is a plug (as an example... I happen to like our MWO, and don't think he is a plug).

But one of the best lessons I've learned is to "stay in your lane".  For me, as a Pte, I don't worry about the plugs above my level.  I just try and do my job and complete the task.  That's my lane.  As a Pte who may become a Cpl in the next year, I see it as my job to improve myself always, increase my competency by learned and going over things I've already learned, and doing what I can to stay sharp.  The Cpl's in my section should be "staying in their lane" as well by helping me and the other Pte's when they can, being the example, and giving me jobs to do that will bring out my best characteristics, or improve those I need to work on.  That's his lane... taking care of Pte's and thereby helping out the sect comd and 2ic in accomplishing their task.

Anything above that I don't even think about.


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## Pikache (20 Oct 2004)

I don't think this issue has been resolved to my satisfaction, so I'll bump it.

As a corporal and being a sect 2i/c, also having what, 2 and half yrs under my belt, this being a leader thing has been challenging to me. During SG04, I expected that I was going to be maybe in wpns det or rifleman, but I did not know that I was slotted in as section 2i/c in the last min. Caught me completely off guard.
During the ex, I tried to do the job to the best of my ability. Sure, I made mistakes, but I didn't get fired. (Go me)

My point is, because I considered myself an NCO, at least prepared myself in case someone with more wisdom decided to put me in leadership  position. I think having the proper attitude got me through so far through this leadership business without major bumps. 

IMO, switching from a follower's mentality to a leader's mentality is hardest thing to switch. Is this not the reason why in the army, we try to develop leadership potential starting from BMQ with course seniors and section seniors? Is not fireteam leader a quasi leadership position? How much initiative can you expect from a soldier who is stuck on follower's mentality compared someone who is willing to have a leader's mentality?

If we tell a corporal to keep his mouth shut because he's just a glorified private and stunt his mentality to develop leadership mentality, how is he suppose to be able to lead if he and his section is tossed into battle and his sect comd and 2i/c get whacked and suddenly he finds himself in charge of the section?

Corporal is historically a leadership rank, an NCO. I say it is a disgrace that we choose to use the rank, but not allow the attitude and responsibiliity that goes with the rank. Might as well have senior private or private first class instead and change master corporal to just corporal.


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## dutchie (20 Oct 2004)

It sounds like you did just fine considering your lack of experience (2 yrs and your barely promotable to Cpl). This experience might lead to some formal leadership training (PLQ) in your near future.

Corporal is historically a leadership rank, an NCO. I say it is a disgrace that we choose to use the rank, but not allow the attitude and responsibiliity that goes with the rank.

Don't confuse the 'old' Corporal rank and the new one. Todays Master Corporal is the Corporal of WW2 (Leadership rank). Todays Corporal is the Lance Corporal of WW2 (a lower, non-leadership rank).


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## PPCLI Guy (20 Oct 2004)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> You can wear the rank, or you can be it.



I'm with Brad.  

A Cpl is as a Cpl does.


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## Infanteer (20 Oct 2004)

> Don't confuse the 'old' Corporal rank and the new one. Todays Master Corporal is the Corporal of WW2 (Leadership rank). Todays Corporal is the Lance Corporal of WW2 (a lower, non-leadership rank).



Actually, today's Master Corporal is the Lance Corporal of the pre-Unified Army.   A Private could be _appointed_ as a Lance Corporal and be assigned at the most junior NCO position - section 2IC (If you don't believe me go look at the British Army webpage; they still maintain the system we abandoned).

Today's Sergeant is equivelent to the pre-Unified Corporal.   Tradionally, Corporals were the section commanders while Sergeants were Platoon 2ic's and fulfilled NCO staff roles (hence, Staff Sergeant).   Warrant Officers (2 and 1) were Sergeants Major.

I do like this system alot better.   Every Rank requires a increased level of responsibility.   The Corporal rank has its (traditional) dignity restored as a true leadership position.   Junior NCO's (LCpl, Cpl) run the sections while the Senior NCO grades are divided between Platoons and Staff (Sgts) and Sergeants Major (WOs).   Simple and easy to understand.


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Oct 2004)

Good job, Infanteer, saved me from saying it.

Since we talked about this last, I have been moved into Clothing Stores.  Not a bad place for a guy who has published two books on military uniforms.  I must say, I like it.  The WO in charge of stores is also the recruiting NCO and has pretty much given me carte blanche to run the clothing stores.  It's a nice amount of responsibility - keeping track of inventory, kitting anyone who comes in, arranging tailoring, etc. - and a welcome change of pace from my last assignment.  

The point of this is that RHF is quite correct when he talks about switching from the follower to the leader mentality - my WO has placed a lot of trust in me from the getgo and I catch myself hanging back from making decisions, which seems surprising to him, which in turn surprises me!


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## pbi (20 Oct 2004)

Most of this discussion has commented on the role of the Cpl in the Army Reserve. I thought I'd add a bit of perspctive from the Regular Army side. I invite CFL or others to correct me as they see fit....

A Cpl is not, TTBOMK (to the best of my knowledge), actually a NCO. However, we may be confusing rank (what you wear) with appointment (what you do). There really isn't any connection: you will be employed in the position the Army needs you to fill. In Regular Inf Bns, (certainly when I was last on Regtl duty) it was not at all uncommon to see Cpls as Sect 2ICs and sometimes as Section Comds. You go with what you've got. Your power can be vested in you by your appointment, regardless of what is on your sleeve/shoulder/chest tab. Whether you are really leader or not has as much to do with what is in your heart as with what is on your arm: some Ptes are red-hot leaders and IMHO our recruit trg should identify and develop leadership potential from Day One.

We also have requirements for promotion to Cpl, based on both time and qualification, and we can also withold the promotion for reasonable grounds, although too often it is granted without much thought. Cheers.


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## Deleted member 585 (21 Oct 2004)

> Since we talked about this last, I have been moved into Clothing Stores.  Not a bad place for a guy who has published two books on military uniforms.  I must say, I like it.  The WO in charge of stores is also the recruiting NCO and has pretty much given me carte blanche to run the clothing stores.  It's a nice amount of responsibility - keeping track of inventory, kitting anyone who comes in, arranging tailoring, etc. - and a welcome change of pace from my last assignment.



See if you can order a prosthetic arm with a dorsal mount so as to keep your hands productive at work while you pat yourself on the back.  :dontpanic:

Seriously though, congrats on the new position, Michael.

Cheers.


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## Northern Touch (21 Oct 2004)

Just becase a Corporal is or isn't in a specifically designated leadership spot doesn't mean they can't contribute or be a leader.
In fact, as a new pte, who do I look to for leadership while im at the regiment?  Obviously Mcpl and Sgts but the guys I see most and hang around with most are the Cpl in the unit.  They are basically the ones who are setting teh standards for me and showing me the rops.  things to do and things not to do.

I think there is no problem what so ever with a Corporal taking on a leadership role.  On ex's ive had Cpls as 2i/c's and even a Sec. Cmd. and they've done a great job which sets an example to us young privates.  No matter what, there will always be privates who will look to Corporals and see the guys they can relate to most.  Corporals arn't the guys I really answer to in a leadership position, but they are the ones can put me back in place, or encourage young Pte's because obviously, they are in muhc more contact with them then a Mcpl or a Sgt.

Take FIBUA for example.  Your Sec. Cmd, as well as the PLt. Comdr and Plt 2i/c can die just as fast as any private.  What happens after that?  It becomes a Corporals battle most often.  You NEED people taking leadership roles to keep an advance going and often times itll be Corporals who step into that role.  So although they may no have all the leadership qualifications, I think they should still be setting an example for the younger guys and be able and capable to step up the the leadership position when needed.


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## pbi (21 Oct 2004)

Northern Touch;



> Take FIBUA for example.  Your Sec. Cmd, as well as the PLt. Comdr and Plt 2i/c can die just as fast as any private.  What happens after that?  It becomes a Corporals battle most often.  You NEED people taking leadership roles to keep an advance going and often times itll be Corporals who step into that role.  So although they may no have all the leadership qualifications, I think they should still be setting an example for the younger guys and be able and capable to step up the the leadership position when needed.



That's it in a nutshell. After four officer casualties an NCO will be leading the Coy. After two NCO casualties a Pte will be leading the section.Thie first time I watched a Rifle Coy attack a defended position using MILES was when this was really brought home to me. Cheers.


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## Scoobie Newbie (21 Oct 2004)

"Thie first time I watched a Rifle Coy attack a defended position using MILES was when this was really brought home to me."  
We need more of that.


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## dutchie (21 Oct 2004)

Re: Lance Cpl/Master Cpl - thanks for the clarification Infanteer. I knew how the ranks changed, I was obviously off on how the responsibilities changed....makes things a little more clear.

The other thing that has come to me throughout this thread is the difference between the mechanical/technical aspects of Jr. Leadership (Cpl/MCpl) and the intangible aspects. For clarity, lets use the example of the Section Attack. 

As a Section Cmdr, one must give certain commands at certain times ('GRIT', Team/Group/Section movement, identify assault team, etc), while following Battle Procedure. That, in theory, does not require one shred of Leadership Skills. In fact, one could argue it does not require any Soldier Skills. This is taught (but not learned) in a classroom/parade square. The other, more important aspect of leadership in my example requires the experience to:
-have a deeper understanding of the actual objective and it's risks.
-predict the affects of the sections actions and the enemy's response
-know the individual strengths/weaknesses of the individual section members/weapons as they relate to this particular objective.
-have enough confidence in one's own abilities to allow instantaneous situation assessment/decision/command/implementation/confirmation, all with aggression.
-predict what must happen well before the decision is made (ie - I will reorg + 10m to make use of that cover there, but make that preliminary assessment during the assault phase)

In a nushell, a MCpl without the above abilities would utterly fail, whereas a Private with the above abilities would likely suceed given the opportunity. A true Leader will posses these characteristics, _regardless of rank_. He will be an example to others and he will be looked to for ideas and opinions by his peers _and his superiors_. His promotion to MCpl (or appointment to Section Cmdr/2IC) would be viewed as 'overdue' or 'just a formality'......basically, the leader 'fakes it till he makes it'.

Thoughts?


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## Michael Dorosh (21 Oct 2004)

Caeser said:
			
		

> His promotion to MCpl (or appointment to Section Cmdr/2IC) would be viewed as 'overdue' or 'just a formality'



Just to pick the flyshit from the pepper - I like that you distinguish between promotions and appointments (some don't recognize the distinction), however, to be annoyingly technical, Mr. Picky will point out that Master Corporal is not a rank.  It is also an appointment, so one is never "promoted" to Master Corporal.

Unless they have finally changed this in recent years?  The last pay tables I saw still had Pte, Cpl (A), Cpl (B), Sgt...


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## dutchie (21 Oct 2004)

Master Corporal is not a rank.   It is also an appointment, so one is never "promoted" to Master Corporal.

Touche, mon frere. This is why a MCpl busted down one substantive rank goes down to Private, and a Sgt busted down one substantive rank goes to Cpl.


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## foerestedwarrior (21 Oct 2004)

I know in my regiment we were only promoting to Cpl. if you had 2 years, CO's reco. AND a QL4. Brigade told us(so i heard) that we had too many eligable Cpl's, so start promotin, wev got a bunch of CPl's that are no diiferent except for a cheveron and $20/day from before. I know I had 2 QL4's before i got promoted, but i have been pushed pretty fast, i am on PLQ with 2 QL4s in just over 2 years. 

The best thing i found that my unit has done for me because i asked was I got attached to our training coy. It is a seperate entity from the coy. We have our own OC and crap, it is for anyone either not SQ or BMQ qualified, we go over all the basic skills and I have started to help and actually teach, i have to teach my first lesson on my PLQ in 1 week, but i already have taught under supervision of 2 MCpls. So i have already been corrected and crap. 

I think that Cpl's are way more than a glorified Pte, just not many of us act that way, if i am told to get peopel to do something, i delgate, not say guys who wants to help me set up these chairs. Its how I think stuff should be done, but unfortunatly its not.


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## dutchie (21 Oct 2004)

and crap....and crap

well, I can already you what your 'word whisker' is.


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## Scoobie Newbie (22 Oct 2004)

I wouldn't say I'm junior but my roles for this month are wpns guy as well as stores for admin coy.  I have to place orders as well as pick them up.  I am the CQ for this month.  I am the representative for Adm HQ with regards to the welfare committiee and I'm am tasked with helping plan the Xmas party for my coy.  I must also t up with the QMSI/DCO in regards to the grand opening of the new building and what they will need from HQ.  I have to handle day to day problems. I also have to attend the coy o groups as well as attend the BN A & Q where I sit at the foot of the table surrounded by Coy 2 i/c's as well as other CQ's (which I might add could be a bit overwhelming).


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## Fishbone Jones (22 Oct 2004)

Which is why we always try to train two up.


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## pbi (22 Oct 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say I'm junior but my roles for this month are wpns guy as well as stores for admin coy. I have to place orders as well as pick them up. I am the CQ for this month. I am the representative for Adm HQ with regards to the welfare committiee and I'm am tasked with helping plan the Xmas party for my coy. I must also t up with the QMSI/DCO in regards to the grand opening of the new building and what they will need from HQ. I have to handle day to day problems. I also have to attend the coy o groups as well as attend the BN A & Q where I sit at the foot of the table surrounded by Coy 2 i/c's as well as other CQ's (which I might add could be a bit overwhelming).



Good on you, CFL: you are an example of what we typically expect from our junior soldiers. The fact that guys like you can take this in your stride is, IMHO, one of the qualities that offsets some of our weaknesses.



			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> Which is why we always try to train two up.



And long may we remember that. As I have ranted before, IMHO we need to identify potential leaders in recruit trg, and develop them from there. *Matt Fisher*.....my understanding of the Crucible USMC recruit training system (I visited Lejeuene and Pendleton in 1997/98 and saw Crucible under way) is that it has this focus. Can you enlighten us? Cheers.


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## Scoobie Newbie (23 Oct 2004)

"Good on you, CFL: you are an example of what we typically expect from our junior soldiers."



Seriously though that xmas party is more intensive then I thought.  Esp when you have to factor in DD and liabilty etc. and how to get everyone home safely.


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## dglad (23 Oct 2004)

Without good Cpls, we're dead in the water as an army.  Now, I suppose that could be said about any rank, but Cpl is the "proving ground" for our junior leadership, which is where the rubber meets the road leadership-wise.  In our current less-than-effective DP system, it's (unreasonably) difficult to produce MCpls, and therefore Sgts, etc.  We count on our Cpls to be our first line of leadership.  And, frankly, it's been that way for a long time, Reg and Res F.  In the Res, in fact, where units are small and cohesion has to be built on one parade night a week and occasional weekends, Cpls are often the glue that holds the unit together.  Want to get the troops out for an event?  Motivate the Cpls...and especially those few, key, "hard-core" Cpls that act as the pivotal informal group leaders.

I also find that by watching Cpls perform, I can begin to see future Snr NCOs and, in some cases, Officers.  And few things are more pleasant than watching a young soldier, full of P & V, turn into a dynamic and effective leader.


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## pbi (24 Oct 2004)

True, dglad, true. And I do agree that we need to re-look the DP system, particularly as it pertains to producing the Section-level NCOs: we may be strangling ourselves (actually, I think we are....) Cheers.


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## rounder (26 Oct 2004)

I always give my newly promoted corporals that same comment "anyone can be a corporal in the Army... but not everyone can be a good one, which will you be?"


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## PPCLI Guy (26 Oct 2004)

Rounder said:
			
		

> I always give my newly promoted corporals that same comment "anyone can be a corporal in the Army... but not everyone can be a good one, which will you be?"



That's great - I may use that...


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## Pencil Tech (28 Oct 2004)

I just have to say that this discussion is really great for me to read as I just got promoted Corporal and really appreciate the chance to read all your submissions. Please keep this one going!


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## Infanteer (29 Oct 2004)

dglad said:
			
		

> Without good Cpls, we're dead in the water as an army. Now, I suppose that could be said about any rank, but Cpl is the "proving ground" for our junior leadership, which is where the rubber meets the road leadership-wise. In our current less-than-effective DP system, it's (unreasonably) difficult to produce MCpls, and therefore Sgts, etc. We count on our Cpls to be our first line of leadership. And, frankly, it's been that way for a long time, Reg and Res F. In the Res, in fact, where units are small and cohesion has to be built on one parade night a week and occasional weekends, Cpls are often the glue that holds the unit together. Want to get the troops out for an event? Motivate the Cpls...and especially those few, key, "hard-core" Cpls that act as the pivotal informal group leaders.
> 
> I also find that by watching Cpls perform, I can begin to see future Snr NCOs and, in some cases, Officers. And few things are more pleasant than watching a young soldier, full of P & V, turn into a dynamic and effective leader.



Wouldn't it be fair to say that you could do the same with a "switched-on" private.  I've noticed that having two ranks (Pte/Cpl) for one position (Rifleman/Crewman/etc) often leads to seniority moving to the fore - hard-charging privates are relegated to the support because a guy who has an extra year on him (and thus got a second hook) is delegated to a leadership role, despite the fact that he may be a complete boob.

"Hmm, this needs to be done; Cpl X, take these privates and sort it out."


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## Scoobie Newbie (29 Oct 2004)

It all gets sorted out in the wash.  If Cpl X is a glue bag and private y is switched on the masses will follow the pte.


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## Spr.Earl (29 Oct 2004)

CFL said:
			
		

> It all gets sorted out in the wash.   If Cpl X is a glue bag and private y is switched on the masses will follow the pte.


Also higher finds out very quickly to.


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## pbi (29 Oct 2004)

This discussion reminds of a book I read a few years ago, written by a US Army officer. It was one of those "military advice" books that the US PXs carry quite a selection of. Had a lot of good ideas in it. Anyway, the author described a situation in which the First Sgt (=Cdn "CSM") he had been assigned was useless. As OC, he selected the sharpest of his Sgts First Class (=Cdn "Pl WO") and made him the "Field First" or "unofficial CSM". The "real" CSM was shunted into the office to do paperwork. What do folks think about that course of action, when confronted with a useless senior subordinate? (Personally, I can't imagine this happening in one of our units-the RSM would be all over it in a second....) Cheers.


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## rounder (29 Oct 2004)

> (Personally, I can't imagine this happening in one of our units-the RSM would be all over it in a second....) Cheers.



   I guess the comand sgt major (RSM) was a glue bag too...


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## dglad (30 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> This discussion reminds of a book I read a few years ago, written by a US Army officer. It was one of those "military advice" books that the US PXs carry quite a selection of. Had a lot of good ideas in it. Anyway, the author described a situation in which the First Sgt (=Cdn "CSM") he had been assigned was useless. As OC, he selected the sharpest of his Sgts First Class (=Cdn "Pl WO") and made him the "Field First" or "unofficial CSM". The "real" CSM was shunted into the office to do paperwork. What do folks think about that course of action, when confronted with a useless senior subordinate? (Personally, I can't imagine this happening in one of our units-the RSM would be all over it in a second....) Cheers.



I don't like it, frankly...it's just dodging the problem, and potentially allowing this guy to end up darkening somebody else's doorstep.  I've always hated what I call the "Special Projects Officer" syndrome--to wit, when you encounter someone with this title, they are either a) actually a Special Projects Officer, with a special project that needs to be done or b) a rations-sink who has been shunted into the job to get him/her out of the way.  Unfortunately, the ratio of a) to b) isn't, in my experience, very high.  Making someone a SPO, or equivalent, is abrogating the responsibity to develop the individual (or, in an extreme case, take action to employ him/her differently, or not at all).  Worse, in the above case, some poor 1st Sgt ended up with a second job to do, because the nominal CSM couldn't do it...and yet, the "real" guy was still around and able to pee in this 1st Sgt's pool.  

The OC should have started a process, in consultation with the RSM (or US equiv), of counselling and development (and documentation) of this guy's shortcomings, with a view to improving his performance, or building a case to turf him.


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## Michael Dorosh (30 Oct 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> This discussion reminds of a book I read a few years ago, written by a US Army officer. It was one of those "military advice" books that the US PXs carry quite a selection of. Had a lot of good ideas in it. Anyway, the author described a situation in which the First Sgt (=Cdn "CSM") he had been assigned was useless. As OC, he selected the sharpest of his Sgts First Class (=Cdn "Pl WO") and made him the "Field First" or "unofficial CSM". The "real" CSM was shunted into the office to do paperwork. What do folks think about that course of action, when confronted with a useless senior subordinate? (Personally, I can't imagine this happening in one of our units-the RSM would be all over it in a second....) Cheers.



Field First is a very old tradition in the US Army, and though it may be unofficial, I am led to believe the practice was widespread by at least the Second World War.  I don't think it is a reaction to incompetents, but rather, a generally accepted way of easing the load of the First Sergeant.  From the research I did for a website on ranks and responsibilities during the Second World War:



> Apparently, a common practice was to designate one of the Platoon Sergeants (generally a staff sergeant) as "Field First Sergeant".  The Field First would act as First Sergeant in his absence, or assist him with his duties as needed, with a squad leader taking over his Platoon Sergeant duties.  This Field First was generally the senior platoon sergeant in the company, but this unofficial appointment was at the discretion of the company commander and could go to any of the platoon sergeants.



Note that this was "at the discretion of the company commander".  Quite possible it was used in the situation you described, but apparently it had the blessing of "the system."   Did the Americans have the equivalent of an RSM (Battalion First Sergeant?)


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## pbi (30 Oct 2004)

Michael: My distinct impression (I no longer have the book, unfortunately...) was that he made the change because of a weak CSM. And, yes, there is a Battalion Command Sgt Maj (CSM) in the US Army. There is a CSM at every level from Bn up, pretty much as  we have. Cheers.


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