# Manitoba bus stabbing/ beheading



## Strike

Wow...not much else to say.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080731.wmanbus0731/BNStory/National/home


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## GAP

Damn....there goes the tourism......


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## Sigger

What I do not understand is; Why the hell, did not anyone help that passenger?
Bunch of bloody scared little people.


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## yak

From the initial reporting it seems that there was little to be done given the size of the knife and the way the victim was being attacked.  Rather than say "scared little people", I'd say that someone, probably several someones, did a remarkably good job in getting the rest of the passengers away and off the bus.

Active intervention stood a good chance of creating several more stabbing victims, especially since they were likely untrained in methods of confronting a knife weilding assailant.  Even with training, you're likely going to get cut.  For the masses, escape and preventing further casualities was the proper option.

But I suppose it's all conjecture at this point until further details are released.


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## Sigger

Well said.

As I have never faced such a situation, I could not say for sure I would round house kick the killer. But I think I would.
Chuck would have.

This is also said for the "9/11" hyjackers.


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## MedTechStudent

Well once he gets to prison we can only hope his cell-mate preforms a " horrifying act of apparently random violence" on _him._

What a waste of human life, for *nothing*.

Sick.


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## Zell_Dietrich

From the description of the attack on CBC,  I "think" that the attacker smoked some crystal meth during the smoke break.  I think this because it was right after the smoke break the guy moved to the back of the bus and then tweaked out and stabbed a guy who was sleeping.

I don't think there was much that could have been done to save the victim's life, the guy likely got 4 well placed stabs in before anyone got to turn around - but it was good to see the men who got everyone off the bus and then held him there.  Good thing the guy was to tweaked to realise there are emergency releases on the windows. (they guarded the door.)

I'm not looking forward to seeing the attacker's face on TV and the inevitable endless discussion of motives.  How much you want to bet this guy is going to write a book?  Which reminds me,  they made a movie about Karla H.  (I spoke to the manager of the movie rental place and told him what I thought of people who make money off of her actions)


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## OldSolduer

My guess is a paranoid schizophrenic, who was undiagnosed and untreated and wigged out.

Chances are there were warning signs many years prior to this, but people either refused to get involved or he fell through the cracks in the system.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> cracks in the system.


There is no system anymore.....


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## OldSolduer

Bruce there is a system.

People are the system, and when people refuse to get involved or shuffle it off as not their responsibility, that is when the system breaks down.

We certainly see the system work well when people do their jobs.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Sorry,...I've been doing this job too long to believe that.

Try to form someone against their will......................


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## 1feral1

Greetings fellow posters!

IMHO, A classic example of Canada's mental health system deteriorating.

These days, people with mental illnesses who should be in an institution, are now left with a pocket full of pills, and pointed the door.

That is a twisted story, and I am shocked, but not suprised.


Happy days,

OWDU


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## larry Strong

I would go with the meth/crack head myself, why else would you wear sunglasses at night?


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## Kat Stevens

Hmmmm... are we sure of Corey Hart's whereabouts these days?


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## Snafu-Bar

More ammo for victims rights and the re-establishment of the death penalty. People like this need not be kept in a cell wasting tax payer money.   :skull:


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## geo

Just watched the CTV broadcast..... 40 something fella wielding a big "Rambo" knife on a Greyhound bus.

Dope head is just as good an assumption as anything else... Sigh!

RIP to the poor sould who got stuck in his path & paid the ultimate sacrifice.

CHIMO!


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## ENGINEERS WIFE

Police don't know what prompted vicious bus attack
Updated Thu. Jul. 31 2008 6:50 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Police in Winnipeg said Thursday they do not know what triggered a vicious attack on a Greyhound bus the night before that led to the beheading of a passenger. 

Witnesses say a man was stabbed to death and then decapitated in what appears to be a random act of violence on board the bus that was en route to Winnipeg late Wednesday. 

At a news conference Thursday afternoon, RCMP Staff Sgt. Steve Colwell said a 40-year-old suspect is in custody and police were preparing to interview him. No charges have been laid. 

Colwell would not confirm passenger reports that a man repeatedly stabbed his seat-mate before beheading him. 

He said passengers had already left the bus when officers arrived at the scene near Portage la Prairie, Man. He added that police apprehended the suspect when he tried to escape the bus by jumping out a window. 

Colwell said the actions of the passengers and driver may have prevented any other attacks from occurring. 

"It's not something that happens regularly on a bus," said Colwell. "You're sitting there enjoying your trip and then all of a sudden somebody gets stabbed. I imagine it would be pretty traumatic ... the way they acted was extraordinary." 

"They were very brave. They reacted swiftly, calmly in exiting the bus and as a result nobody else was injured." 

Shocked witnesses said the victim, described as between the ages of 18 to 20, was sleeping with his head against the window when the attack occurred. 

Garnet Caton, who was sitting in front of the victim, heard the commotion and turned around thinking he was going to witness a fight. 

Caton told CTV News that once he realized what was going on he screamed: "Stop the bus, somebody's getting stabbed, everyone get the hell off." 

The bus driver pulled over on a section of the east-bound Trans-Canada Highway -- about 15 kilometres west of Portage la Prairie -- and many of the 37 passengers began to flee the bus. 

Passengers attempt rescue 

Caton gathered a small group of people to go back and help the victim, said CTV correspondent Murray Oliver in Winnipeg. 

"They returned to the back of the bus to find that the person who was stabbing the person in the neck had now sawed off the head of (the victim)." 

The man, with the head in one hand and the knife in the other, then tried to attack the other passengers, said Oliver. 

The group was able to exit the bus and slammed the door behind them. 

The man then stabbed the door with his knife but was unable to break through and get off the bus. Eventually, he attempted to start up the bus to drive away but the operator had hit a switch, disabling the vehicle. 

Oliver said a truck driver then arrived at the scene and handed out wrenches and crowbars to several men. The small group gathered around the door to the bus and prevented the man from exiting until police arrived. 

Cody Olmstead, a Nova Scotia man who was on the bus, said that the killer taunted the men who were blocking the door from the outside. 

"He cut (the victim's) head off and then walked up to the door holding it and just looked at them crazy-like and then dropped the head and walked back to the body and started cutting it some more," Olmstead told CTV News from outside a hotel in Brandon, Man., where he and other passengers were taken. 

The man was left alone with the body and witnesses say that he performed further indignities to the victim. 

"We have word from people on the scene . . . that when the killer was alone with the body . . . that there may have been some small acts of cannibalism on the body," Oliver said. 

Oliver said that police have not confirmed that, but have not denied it either. 

Criminal profiler Pat Brown told CTV Newsnet that the killing may have been planned in advance, even if the choice of victim was completely random. 


"This may have been planned -- to have this moment of rage," she said. 


A number of witnesses referred to the suspect's actions as "robot-like." Brown said that fits the profile of some high-profile psychopaths who go into a "trance" while performing ghastly acts, ignoring the world around them. 


The suspect 

RCMP eventually arrested the man after a standoff lasting several hours, said Oliver. 

Witnesses said the suspect was tall, large and wearing sunglasses, even though it was dark. 

David Eastwick, a passenger on the bus, told CTV News that he noticed that there seemed to be something "wrong" with the suspect even before the attack. 

"He look kind of suspicious when I saw him," a clearly-tired Eastwick said Thursday. "Most people if you say 'Hi' to them they say 'Hi' back to you but this one just looked back and (stared.)" 

"I knew something was wrong (with) his mind." 

Greyhound provides counselling 

Abby Wambaugh, media relations spokeswoman for Greyhound, said the company is now working with Transport Canada to review bus security. 

She called the situation tragic but said travelling by bus is still "the safest mode of transportation in the country." 

Wambaugh also said Greyhound is fully co-operating with the RCMP investigation. 

Passengers will be escorted to Winnipeg once they are interviewed by RCMP, said Wambaugh. 

Once there, Greyhound will provide counselling for any passengers who want the service, she said. 

Government responds 

Meanwhile, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day said Thursday he was shocked when he heard about the incident. 

"Like most Canadians I'm horrified to hear of the account," Day said. "It's more than most people can even contemplate." 

He said it was "probably one-of-a-kind in Canadian history." 

The minister said he's not entertaining any notion of registering knives as dangerous weapons given that millions of kitchen knives alone are sold annually.


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## ENGINEERS WIFE

I know some of the above article is the same as posted before.  But, this has some more details.

WOW, that pretty much sums it up!!
That is one messed up SOB.  Obviously not a sane individual.
I can't even imagine what the family of the guy that was killed is going through.  To think that he was murdered sitting in a bus minding his own business and then the way he died, must be unimaginable, my heart goes out to him and his family. RIP


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## CBH99

Holy crap.  God Bless the victim -- not much else I can say.


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## 1feral1

Happy bright and cheery greetings to all,

Just so you know, this is now an international story, and is all over the media here in Australia today. I have been reminded countless times in the past 90 minutes.

Happy days, group hugs and a warm sunny smile,


OWDU


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## kratz

I was reading the news from Google and thought of your comment OD when I noticed that the headlines about the beheading are now making headlines:

from Canoe - CNEWS  Bus stabbing in Manitoba grabs International media attention

More on the story above in the link.


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## Colin Parkinson

Had they just banned guns this would never had happened!

Going after a whacko with a big knife on a dark bus when everyone is in condition white and dozy, would be difficult, I won't be pointing any fingers. However if you are in such a position Dry chem fire extinguishers are your friend, they will blind and choke the person, giving you a chance to escape or nail them with the extinguisher, I had to use this method a few times.


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## WannaBeFlyer

> Bus *stabbing* in Manitoba grabs International media attention


Stabbing? 
"The man, with the head in one hand and the knife in the other, then tried to attack the other passengers, said Oliver. " Source: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080731/Manitoba_bus_080731/20080731?hub=TopStories

Of course it is international news. A stabbing is one thing, but this is unreal.


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## The Bread Guy

This didn't take long - was this remark unsolicited....


> "(Public Safety Minister Stockwell) Day says he wouldn't even entertain the notion of registering knives as dangerous weapons, noting that millions of kitchen knives alone are likely sold each year."



Source:  http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gucXyGORKt6zHK_4StpKtCZuZCiQ

...or was it the result of a question from a reporter?  Anyone?  Anyone?

Also, if you're interested in other countries' media take on this, here's how Indo-Asian News Service, Agence France Presse, Bloomberg (U.S.), the Press Association (UK), Reuters (UK), and BBC are running the story.


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## Thompson_JM

Probabbly a safe bet that grayhound will be pulling all of their "ever heard of bus rage" billboards down....... 

poor bastard.... thats the kind of thing I expect to see on Al-Jazeera happening in Iraq... not here in Canada..... Mental Illness or not, the guy should never see the light of day again, period.

I feel for his family.... I cant imagine how they will even begin to try to get any kind of closure over this... or try to make sense of any of it... 

makes me wonder what the hell kind of world we live in these days...


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## adaminc

People should be allowed to have concealed weapons w/ the appropriate permits. Something like this could have been stopped, or at least it could have been prevented from becoming so gruesome.


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## top4u20

I was not even on this bus and I can't get it out of my mind. What a completely retarded act of violence. The killer definately had everyone at a disadvantage..being late at night...dark bus etc. IMO there should be more security on buses, sad but true. I hope this is not another one of those "plead insanity" and sits in some hospital ward all his life. This is a true example of why the death penalty should be brought in. Very obvious "guilt" on this one. It will be very interesting to see what background this guy has?


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## geo

On the news last night they were pointing out that Greyhound busses in the US had an incident around 9/11 where a passenger slit a driver's throat.  Eversince, the US bus drivers have a plexi shield preventing anyone from getting at their back.... might be time to get those in Canada.

Passengers were able to remain relatively calm,  Driver got the bus pulled over, the passengers evacuated & the vehicle immobilized.  A trucker armed 3 or 4 passengers with hammers & tire irons and they got the agressor boxed in - awaiting the RCMP... good work by all in a very tense situation.


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## NL_engineer

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> This didn't take long - was this remark unsolicited....
> Source:  http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gucXyGORKt6zHK_4StpKtCZuZCiQ
> 
> ...or was it the result of a question from a reporter?  Anyone?  Anyone?
> 
> Also, if you're interested in other countries' media take on this, here's how Indo-Asian News Service, Agence France Presse, Bloomberg (U.S.), the Press Association (UK), Reuters (UK), and BBC are running the story.



I seen the interview on CTV news net, the reporter was talking about a knife registry, when Mr. Day responded with something like so how do you propose we register the 20 million knives sold last year.


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## top4u20

A simple metal scan prior to boarding might solve this issue. Minimal carry on, and all luggage to cargo hold. Yes, it will take longer to board but in the end make all bus travellers a bit safer. It sucks as ticket prices would inevitably go up as most everything dealing with public travel is doing now.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see how all this plays out in the coming weeks and likely months or possibly years.

Cheers


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## top4u20

Here is the latest.....RCMP have charged Vince Weiguang Li, 40, with second-degree murder after 22-year-old Tim McLean was stabbed and then decapitated in a vicious attack on a Greyhound bus. 

I wonder how long this guy was in the country?


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## The Bread Guy

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> I wonder how long this guy was in the country?



Careful, now - would you ask that if he had an Italian or Finnish surname?

This web page has a history of cutting/pasting news releases verbatim, and I couldn't find any statement yet on the RCMP national web page, so here's one early version of the RCMP statement.  

A bit more detail on CBC.ca, CanWest, Canadian Press...



			
				geo said:
			
		

> On the news last night they were pointing out that Greyhound busses in the US had an incident around 9/11 where a passenger slit a driver's throat.  Eversince, the US bus drivers have a plexi shield preventing anyone from getting at their back.... might be time to get those in Canada.



Similar events have happened here in Canada as well - I remember this one, having been a reporter @ the time, and the National Post highlights a couple of more here.

Also, a bit of a warning from 2001

Edited to add latest media mentions....


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## krustyrl

Just waiting for the demand for "Bus Marshals".

My sympathies go out to the victim's family for such a senseless act.


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## top4u20

My apologies if I took the name the wrong way...but too me the first thing that came to mind was a landed immigrant that was pissed at the government for not allowing a work visa or refugee status and decided to take it out on one of our outstanding citizens.
I feel extremely sad for the victims family especially under the circumstances they way this happened.


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## vonGarvin

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> Here is the latest.....RCMP have charged Vince Weiguang Li, 40, with second-degree murder after 22-year-old Tim McLean was stabbed and then decapitated in a vicious attack on a Greyhound bus.
> 
> I wonder how long this guy was in the country?


I'm not sure.  I mean, he _was _ a carny, so Mr. McLean could have been an American for all we know.  Why do you ask?  It matters not his home country, but only that the poor bastard was murdered for no apparent reason, good or bad.


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## top4u20

Mortarman...I was talking about the killer not the victim.

All good.


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## marshall sl

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Sorry,...I've been doing this job too long to believe that.
> 
> Try to form someone against their will......................



Well said Bruce. After working as a Co for 26 years I have seen the same thing.


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## Neill McKay

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> A simple metal scan prior to boarding might solve this issue. Minimal carry on, and all luggage to cargo hold. Yes, it will take longer to board but in the end make all bus travellers a bit safer.



No it wouldn't.  The murderers would just do their stabbing and beheading outside the bus terminal, or in any of countless other places.  

We could put metal detectors at the entrance to every home and make sure nobody ever goes outside with a knife.  Otherwise we should just live with the one in several thousands risk of being stabbed as part of the price of living in a free country, and not succumb to knee-jerk reactions every time something bad happens.


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## observor 69

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Greetings fellow posters!
> 
> IMHO, A classic example of Canada's mental health system deteriorating.
> 
> These days, people with mental illnesses who should be in an institution, are now left with a pocket full of pills, and pointed the door.
> 
> That is a twisted story, and I am shocked, but not surprised.
> 
> 
> Happy days,
> 
> OWDU



Living in the GTA I agree and also from personal experience with Bruce.


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## Pelorus

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> but too me the first thing that came to mind was a landed immigrant that was pissed at the government for not allowing a work visa or refugee status and decided to take it out on one of our outstanding citizens.



I fail to see how mass speculation due to your personal prejudice is relevant to this event.


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## Kat Stevens

Odd, first thing that came to my mind was "Holy fuck!  Some nutbar cut a guy's head off on a Greyhound?  That's all kinds of wrong!"  Maybe that's just me, though.  I really don't feel a deep seated need to know the "why" of it.


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## NL_engineer

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> A simple metal scan prior to boarding might solve this issue. Minimal carry on, and all luggage to cargo hold. Yes, it will take longer to board but in the end make all bus travellers a bit safer. It sucks as ticket prices would inevitably go up as most everything dealing with public travel is doing now.
> Anyway, it will be interesting to see how all this plays out in the coming weeks and likely months or possibly years.
> 
> Cheers



What good is that against non metallic weapons, like this. 


_Edited to fix link_


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## medicineman

milnewstbay said:
			
		

> Careful, now - would you ask that if he had an Italian or Finnish surname?
> 
> This web page has a history of cutting/pasting news releases verbatim, and I couldn't find any statement yet on the RCMP national web page, so here's one early version of the RCMP statement.
> 
> A bit more detail on CBC.ca, CanWest, Canadian Press...
> 
> Similar events have happened here in Canada as well - I remember this one, having been a reporter @ the time, and the National Post highlights a couple of more here.
> 
> Also, a bit of a warning from 2001
> 
> Edited to add latest media mentions....



When I was on a rotation in Winnipeg last fall, some local yahoo slit a dude's throat in front of a whole sidewalk full of people at a downtown mall bus stop around noontime.  I looked after a guy in ER there as well that went a bit (well OK, alot) beserk and euchered about a dozen cars pretty much bare handed and hurt a couple of cops as well.  I could go on but won't.  Lots of crazies around - Manitoba has a fair share it seems...

MM


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## Colin Parkinson

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> A simple metal scan prior to boarding might solve this issue. Minimal carry on, and all luggage to cargo hold. Yes, it will take longer to board but in the end make all bus travellers a bit safer. It sucks as ticket prices would inevitably go up as most everything dealing with public travel is doing now.
> Anyway, it will be interesting to see how all this plays out in the coming weeks and likely months or possibly years.
> 
> Cheers



or we could just arm everybody with knives.


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## 1feral1

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> A simple metal scan prior to boarding might solve this issue.
> 
> Cheers



Greetings Mr Topo,

May I politely ask how you would solve the problem at rural locations and along highways, when buses pick up pax outside large city centres. Personally I can't see walk-thru metal detectors and the like at the Esso on the No.6 Hwy at Dafoe Saskatchewan.

Even handhelds being carried by drivers to scan people, well then there is the issue of searches the opposite sex in the every sickening world of PC'ness nowadays. People must be vigilent, and for years, even over 30 yrs ago, knives and etc were banned from being carried on STC buses in Saskatchewan, because of vandalism on seats etc. I think if people dig a bit deeper, large knives etc are already banned, and to be carried in luggage stowed in the compartments below the cabin. Thats how it was in the 70's in Saskatchewan

Security cams etc, are not going to stop someone who is determined to stab someone. A 'knee jerk' reaction aint going to solve anything either.

2nd point, your quote  - "but too me the first thing that came to mind was a landed immigrant that was pissed at the government for not allowing a work visa or refugee status and decided to take it out on one of our outstanding citizens." - Well this is got you nominated for a local Darwin Award, Jeebus Topo, think before you post such bull shyte". This is one of the most foolish things I have heard on here in a while, not attacking your, or gawd forbid, attempting to humilate you, but just look what you wrote! Fell free to remove that Mark III size 10 combat boot from your mouth at anytime.  ;D

On another note, a charge of ONLY 2nd degree 'M'? What a load of crap! Lets hope thats increased to 1st degree, as it sure looks like premeditated to me anyways, even if teh guy is a nutter. A lesser charge is nothing but an insult to the INNOCENT young man who was MURDERED in COLD blood. Our justice system is literally a joke!

Greetings from a cheery, but early Saturday morning in paradise.

Happy days,

OWDU


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## top4u20

I apologize "overwatch" if I offended anyone. Just and opinion...freedom of speech. No doubt, there will be a million possiblilies of how events like this can be handled good or bad. I think I will leave this post alone.

Again, heartfelt feelings to the victims family and I cant wait to see what the history of this murderer.


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## 1feral1

Hi Topo, I just thought it was a stupid thing to say, not offended at all.

Happy days,


OWDU


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## Ninkendo

2nd degree murder still carries a life imprizonment sentence with no chance of parole untill at least 10 years. While I think this is way too light for what the murderer has done at least he will be locked up for the next 10+ years.


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## Fishbone Jones

Ninkendo said:
			
		

> 2nd degree murder still carries a life imprizonment sentence with no chance of parole untill at least 10 years. While I think this is way too light for what the murderer has done at least he will be locked up for the next 10+ years.



But 'life' in Canada is not like it is in the States. Life here usually means 7-10 years thanks to the revolving door, hug a thug mentality of our social welfare & left wing dominated justice system. Stateside it means life.


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## Ninkendo

So let me get this straight? The life imprizonement with no chance of parole for at least 10 years is not really a law so much as a loose guideline that a judge can interpret based on his own discretion?

It's times like these where I wish they had capital punishment or they should at least enforce these so called life sentences.


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## Fishbone Jones

What the law _says_ :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_sentence#Canada

Canada

Life imprisonment means that the offender will be under supervision, whether in prison or in the community, for the rest of their life. The maximum sentence is life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for 25 years, but this number can range from only a few years up to the maximum. There is no guarantee that parole will be granted if the National Parole Board determines that the offender still poses a risk to society. At the present time, the so-called Faint-Hope Clause, which specifies those serving a life term have a chance to apply for parole after 15 years, as opposed to the maximum of 25, is still in force. However, the new Conservative Government, elected to a minority in January 2006, has pledged to repeal the Faint-Hope Clause. Moreover, the courts may apply a dangerous offender designation, which is in fact an indeterminate sentence: no minimum and no maximum, but parole review occurs every 7 years. Current sentencing guidelines, provided by the legislative leaders to judges of all levels on an annual basis, ensure that both a "life" sentence and the "dangerous offender" designation are very rarely used, even when the offender is found guilty for particularly grievous offences. Second degree murder carries a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment without parole for between 10 and 25 years; first degree murder carries a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment without parole for 25 years.

United States

Determinate and Indeterminate Life Sentence

There are many states where a convict can be released on parole after a decade or more has passed. For example, sentences of "15 years to life" or "25 years to life" may be given; this is called an "indeterminate life sentence", while a sentence of "life without the possibility of parole" is called a "determinate life sentence". Even when a sentence specifically denies the possibility of parole, government officials may have the power to grant amnesty or reprieves, or commute a sentence to time served. Under the federal criminal code, however, with respect to offenses committed after December 1, 1987, parole has been abolished for all sentences handed down by the federal system, including life sentences, so a life sentence from a federal court will result in imprisonment for the life of the defendant, unless a pardon or reprieve is granted by the President.


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## tomahawk6

I wonder why the other passengers didnt try to intervene ?


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## Ninkendo

WRT why people did not intervene. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they were shocked/scared. Psycho with big knife versus passengers. Unless the psycho was gonna hijack the bus and crash it I don't think the passengers would do anything but stay in self preservation mode. 

On Canada day however I learned that people on buses are sometimes just lazy selfish people who only care for themselves. I was in DEUs on my way to garrison. Some drunk aggressive guy gets on the bus and starts arguing with the smaller female bus driver. Anyways he refused to stay behind the red line and was in the bus drivers face. The bus driver stops and says she's not driving anymore until the aggressor backs off. I'm just sitting 6 feet away waiting for him to touch her. The other passengers on the bus starts b--ching to the bus driver "Just drive already why are you taking it out on us?" Anyways a big guy behind me gets up and says "Driver please open the door" He then throws the drunk idiot off the bus. Then some passenger on the bus starts b--ching "Hey go easy on him you don't have to hurt him. Naturally the whiny passengers shut up when the big guy turns around to face them. Turns out the big guy was a bouncer in his younger years. Its good that there are still good people but that day it seems most of the people were selfish little whiners.

On the bright side shortly after an attractive young lady in loose fitting clothing that left not a lot to the imagination stood next to me and asked the driver how to get to Wreck beach (clothing optional beach). Took a lot of will power to stop at the garrison and not follow her to the beach.


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## Sig_Des

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I wonder why the other passengers didnt try to intervene ?



From most of the news reports, after getting all of the passengers off the bus, at least 3 individuals (Not sure, but IIRC from the reports) one passenger, driver, and a truck driver who stopped, went back into the bus, only to find the accused hacking off the head, then walking towards them head in one hand, knife in the other.

The fact that a) the bus was stopped, b) all remaining passengers were removed from the danger area, c) the bus was disabled and d) the accused was contained on the bus tells me; that certain individuals actions not only prevented harm to others, but also allowed authorities to detain the accused.

Regrettable that the one life was lost, but from what I gather, the actions of these people may have prevented an even worse tragedy.

My uneducated 2 cents


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## ENGINEERS WIFE

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I wonder why the other passengers didnt try to intervene ?



"Passengers attempt rescue 

Caton gathered a small group of people to go back and help the victim, said CTV correspondent Murray Oliver in Winnipeg. 

"They returned to the back of the bus to find that the person who was stabbing the person in the neck had now sawed off the head of (the victim)." 

The man, with the head in one hand and the knife in the other, then tried to attack the other passengers, said Oliver. 

The group was able to exit the bus and slammed the door behind them. "

What would you expect them to do?  
I'm sure when it first happened they wouldn't even of realized exactly what was happening.  Going after some obviously unstable nutbar with a huge knife in a confined space with only one exit and limited defense, no matter who you are and what you training is, I personally think, would be a suicide mission.  I'm sure it has been very traumatizing for the other people on the bus and they have to live with these pictures over and over again everyday in the heads.  I agree with Beadwindow 7.
You have probably heard the saying.....Until you've walked a mile in their shoes.......


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## Fishbone Jones

Unfortunately, there is much more than one exit. All the windows can come out for emergencies. Fortunately the guy was too stupid, high, deranged, whatever, to realize this.


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## NL_engineer

Ninkendo said:
			
		

> So let me get this straight? The life imprizonement with no chance of parole for at least 10 years is not really a law so much as a loose guideline that a judge can interpret based on his own discretion?
> 
> It's times like these where I wish they had capital punishment or they should at least enforce these so called life sentences.



If this happened in Texas, he would get to use the Express Line


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Yes, i think it's time Canada went back in time and fixed what Agnes Mc"fail" screwwed up when she made canadian prisions "garbage friendly" . Victims rights should supercede ANY rights of some scumbag like this EVER!

 Bring back the gallows and do away with human garbage that has no use breathing let alone rottin away in a cell for the rest of thier lives while we foot the bill.


----------



## geo

Bring back the gallows ?

Umm.... so what happens to the people who are found guilty and sentenced to death.
IIRC, there have been a fairly large number of convictions overturned in the past little while...
How do you propose dealing with them ???  or do you propose simply saying "$hit happens"


----------



## Snafu-Bar

geo said:
			
		

> Bring back the gallows ?
> 
> Umm.... so what happens to the people who are found guilty and sentenced to death.
> IIRC, there have been a fairly large number of convictions overturned in the past little while...
> How do you propose dealing with them ???  or do you propose simply saying "$hit happens"




 In cases like Bernardo/Homolka and this waste of fresh air Li, there WAS/IS no doubt about what they done. Those 3 should be hanged/shot/fed to animals, whatever you like, but they should NOT be sitting in a cell or walking about freely after thier actions. 

 Just my 2 cents on the current state of our dysfunctional justice system.  :-[


----------



## geo

Those are the ones that we got right.... plenty of others who still profess to have been wrongly convicted.

BTW, it's not like this Li fella is an incorrigible and habitual criminal.
Did he react badly to medications prescribed by his physicial ?
Did he stop using prescribed medicine ? ( he is from Edmonton & was in Winnipeg)

Pefore you call out the lynching party, let's make sure we do it right - it's not like there's a fire or anything


----------



## Snafu-Bar

The ones we got right are still breathing air, how is that right? in cases like Bernardo/Homolka there should be no plea bargains, no sympathy and sure as hell no chance to ever to walk freely let alone continue to breath.

 The system is broken, it needs to be fixed.  Sympathy and medicine not included.


----------



## Ðetermination

Makes me sick to my stomache, how could you do that to somone???


----------



## Blackadder1916

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> The ones we got right are still breathing air, how is that right? . . .



It is very easy to single out those nationally publicized cases and hold them up as examples for justifying the death penalty.  Not that there should be anything wrong in executing those who will be a continued threat to society.  But how do you determine that the person accused is 100 percent guilty, beyond any shadow of a doubt?  Those responsible for the administration of justice thought that they "got it right" for many such as Steven Truscott, David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin and Bill Mullins-Johnson (to name a few of the many).  The outcry surrounding the murders in their cases would almost surely have resulted in the death penalty for them (had it been available as it was in Truscott's case).  And it wasn't the 'system' that initiated intervention to reverse its errors.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

If there is a bus load of people watching you kill someone, i'd have to say that's pretty F'n 100% guilty if you ask me. No court room needed, just should have put him on the ground and ended it right there on the spot. But now he will get treated like a little kid not knowing right from wrong. Getting pumped full of medication, a nice cozy cell and free food,tv,internet,library and other such comforts he should have no right to after his actions.

 But what the hell, Li can cost tax payers for another 40 years while the family tries to cope with thier loss. Status Quo... SNAFU.


----------



## Thompson_JM

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> If this happened in Texas, he would get to use the Express Line



If this happened in Texas he probabbly would have been shot and killed by someone on the bus and the poor sod getting stabbed might have survived... or at least not had those indignities happen to his body.


----------



## MedTechStudent

Was watching footage on the news.  As i watched the police walk the accused to a squad car I could not help but notice the he had a couple bruises on his face.  I hope he was smacked around a little in custody.


----------



## Pelorus

Tommy said:
			
		

> If this happened in Texas he probabbly would have been shot and killed by someone on the bus and the poor sod getting stabbed might have survived... or at least not had those indignities happen to his body.



If we are going to spend time discussing "what ifs", then we must also state the other possible outcomes of such a situation.  Had there been someone aboard the bus who was armed and tried to take him out surrounded by lots of panicking people in an extremely cramped space such as a greyhound bus, there would been a very good chance of the poor victim still dying, except he would joined in the morgue by a couple of innocent people on board who were trying to escape with their lives.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

boot12 said:
			
		

> If we are going to spend time discussing "what ifs", then we must also state the other possible outcomes of such a situation.  Had there been someone aboard the bus who was armed and tried to take him out surrounded by lots of panicking people in an extremely cramped space such as a greyhound bus, there would been a very good chance of the poor victim still dying, except he would joined in the morgue by a couple of innocent people on board who were trying to escape with their lives.



I take it you don't consider yourself very proficient with a firearm, even at point blank range, if you hold that view. Not everyone that chooses to learn how to use a tool properly is incompetent and inefficient.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

topo4u20 said:
			
		

> My apologies if I took the name the wrong way...but too me the first thing that came to mind was a landed immigrant that was pissed at the government for not allowing a work visa or refugee status and decided to take it out on one of our outstanding citizens.
> I feel extremely sad for the victims family especially under the circumstances they way this happened.



Where do, and more importantly WHY do, you people insist on making stuff like this up?  I don't get it.  Dabating his state of mental health, drug use/abuse are all with the left and right of arc's to me but this is just RTFOTL.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Where do, and more importantly WHY do, you people insist on making stuff like this up?  I don't get it.  Dabating his state of mental health, drug use/abuse are all with the left and right of arc's to me but this is just RTFOTL.



We're past that and he's been taken to task and made contrition. Let it go and move on.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> No court room needed, just should have put him on the ground and ended it right there on the spot.



A dangerous idea, no?  Where people can just be judge, jury and executioner?  Remember, in this great country of ours, everyone has the right to "due process" and all those other things we hold near and dear, as laid out in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  Even the POS in question here, is subject to said Charter.

Pandora's Box would be opened if we ok'd "lynch mobs", and how many years, decades or centuries would we, as a society, therefore step back?

What *IS* missing, IMHO, in our Justice System is the 'follow thru', the sentences that this man will find himself at the receiving end of, once that due process has run its course.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

recceguy said:
			
		

> We're past that and he's been taken to task and made contrition. Let it go and move on.



Seen.  I am just playing catch-up WRT to this thread from the last few days and replied as I was reading.


----------



## Greymatters

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> A dangerous idea, no?  Where people can just be judge, jury and executioner?  Remember, in this great country of ours, everyone has the right to "due process" and all those other things we hold near and dear, as laid out in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  Even the POS in question here, is subject to said Charter.  Pandora's Box would be opened if we ok'd "lynch mobs", and how many years, decades or centuries would we, as a society, therefore step back?  What *IS* missing, IMHO, in our Justice System is the 'follow thru', the sentences that this man will find himself at the receiving end of, once that due process has run its course.



Devils advocate here:

The problem with that attitude is that some people dont deserve to stay within society and should be handled 'vigilante-style' immediately.  Most of the country will only remember this criminal act happened and a much lower percentage will actually track the case to find out if the person got their 'just deserts'.  

Along the path of the so-called infallible system of 'due process', this person could be let out on bail and skip town, be released from prosecution on a technicality, be declared insane and therefore not at fault for his actions, all the witnesses could recant their statements due to fear of being the next target, or a judge or jury could be swayed by arguments of bad upbringing/temporary insanity/influence of drugs/abusive upbringing/societal blame/imagined slight/guilty remorse/ etc. 

Just as there's a bad side to due process there's also a good side to vigilante justice.  The argument about 'innocent' people being attacked is invalid since innocent people get convicted by due process anyway.  At least everyone knows the offender has been dealt with, and it saves a lot of taxpayer money...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I think a valid argument if I may say so.

I am certainly not a fan of our current system, by any means.  Too much softy-kid-gloves to it.

And perhaps, this case is not a good example for my post as presented, being that multiple people watched this manic off a young man and then behead him.

Too bad the cops couldn't have seen fit to 'discharge their sidearms in self-defence'.  

In the long run, we as society and tax payers will be paying for this culprits upkeep in a rubber room or a max security facility.  He could even get his degree and learn a 2nd language (Karla H, remember?)


----------



## top4u20

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Hi Topo, I just thought it was a stupid thing to say, not offended at all.
> 
> Happy days,
> 
> 
> OWDU
> 
> Vince Weiguang Li, 40, who immigrated to Canada from China in 2004,
> 
> Nuff Said


----------



## EW

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Was watching footage on the news.  As i watched the police walk the accused to a squad car I could not help but notice the he had a couple bruises on his face.  I hope he was smacked around a little in custody.



Wasn't there something in the news about him trying to escape, or get out a window.  Long way down, especially if you land on your head.


----------



## EW

Tommy said:
			
		

> If this happened in Texas he probabbly would have been shot and killed by someone on the bus and the poor sod getting stabbed might have survived... or at least not had those indignities happen to his body.



If this had happened in Texas, it could have been the lunatic who had the firearm instead of a knife.  The old "..if other people only had better access to firearms.." is a circular argument in these types of cases.  Unless we could guarantee that this guy wouldn't have had access.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

EW said:
			
		

> If this had happened in Texas, it could have been the lunatic who had the firearm instead of a knife.  The old "..if other people only had better access to firearms.." is a circular argument in these types of cases.  Unless we could guarantee that this guy wouldn't have had access.



Prove it. Until you do, I'll call you an idiot.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

EW said:
			
		

> Wasn't there something in the news about him trying to escape, or get out a window.  Long way down, especially if you land on your head.



He tried to get out the door. He was to stupid to try the emergency window exits.


----------



## EW

recceguy said:
			
		

> Prove it. Until you do, I'll call you an idiot.



Uhhh yeah, okay.  You call me whatever you want to.  

So you want me to "..prove it..," and continue the circular argument that leads nowhere?  Doesn't change the fact that arming the citizenry can have negative as well as positive possible outcomes.  Someone blindly asserting that if one of the passengers had a firearm that (s)he would have put this monster down.  Totally ignores that fact that this fella could have used the same avenue to get a weapon.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

EW said:
			
		

> .  Totally ignores that fact that this fella could have used the same avenue to get a weapon.



Actually, you are totally ignoring the fact that a non-law abiding citizen can just about get a handgun anywhere right at this very moment........................and 99% of our population can't. [being law abiding and all that]


----------



## old medic

He was taken into custody after attempting to jump out one of the bus windows about 0130 hours. 

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html



> RCMP crisis negotiators communicated with the suspect for several hours while he was on the bus. Around 1:30 a.m., he attempted to jump from a bus window and was subdued and arrested, RCMP said.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

old medic said:
			
		

> He was taken into custody after attempting to jump out one of the bus windows about 0130 hours.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/07/31/greyhound-transcanada.html



So he finally figured it out : Proves what?


----------



## Fishbone Jones

EW said:
			
		

> Uhhh yeah, okay.  You call me whatever you want to.
> 
> So you want me to "..prove it..," and continue the circular argument that leads nowhere?  Doesn't change the fact that arming the citizenry can have negative as well as positive possible outcomes.  Someone blindly asserting that if one of the passengers had a firearm that (s)he would have put this monster down.  Totally ignores that fact that this fella could have used the same avenue to get a weapon.



Give me a break. If you can't put forward a reasoned and researched opinion for discussion, you may not be an idiot, but you're perspecitive, in this forum, becomes irrelevant and not worth debate or retort. 

Excuse me for jumping to conclusions.


----------



## old medic

recceguy said:
			
		

> So he finally figured it out : Proves what?



After I posted that, I took a look at the Canadian Press copy of the RCMP news conference.
In that, they say the suspect broke a window then tried to jump out.  So I don't think
he ever figured out the window releases.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Regardless, Li should have been put down on the spot, instead society will coddle him and spend millions on him in attempts to do the right thing. 

 As far as i'm concerned it's justification for a hanging or a firing squad, no life centence, no chance for parole and no fkn sympathy.  :skull:


 Again this is just my opinion.


 Cheers.


----------



## MG34

I have to question the actions of of the other passangers, they ran like the sheep 90% of Canadians are. How anyone can run away instead of taking action is beyond me.Truly a disgusting statement on how cowardly and weak the citizens of this nation have become.


----------



## Mike Baker

MG34 said:
			
		

> I have to question the actions of of the other passangers, they ran like the sheep 90% of Canadians are. How anyone can run away instead of taking action is beyond me.Truly a disgusting statement on how cowardly and weak the citizens of this nation have become.


I have to agree with you on this. 

Although I am still young, I really do think that our society has gotten too soft, where much of the population has become 'sheep' if you will, where they avoid bad things, and go with everyone else. This is a prime example of how bad things have become. If I was a family member of this poor lad, I would sure as hell be pretty upset since everyone else on the bus ran off, not bothering to help him. Sure, after a few well placed blows with the knife he was probably gone, but it could have save him from being beheaded and stabbed much more, if someone would have decided that this monster needed to be stopped.

But we can't change the past now can we, only change things that we do to change the future.

-Deadpan


----------



## Greymatters

MG34 said:
			
		

> I have to question the actions of of the other passangers, they ran like the sheep 90% of Canadians are. How anyone can run away instead of taking action is beyond me.Truly a disgusting statement on how cowardly and weak the citizens of this nation have become.



The reason for this falls into the old saying "train like you fight".  Nowadays,  we are sent the same message: "don't use violence'; 'let the proper authorities handle the situation'; 'you don't have the right to physically handle another person no matter that they did'; 'you don't have the right to protect yourself or your family, wait for trained persons to deal with the situation'.

Herosim is dead.  Initiative has been crushed.  The concept of acting out goodwill or societal stewardship, preserving life or preventing further violence, has been strangled by politics and bureaucracy.  No one is taught to deal with a crisis situation where there is no law enforcement present or able to respond quickly.  Everyone is taught that violence is not a solution and there are harsh penalties for using force if you aren't carrying a badge or you can be sued in court.  Its no surprise that the first response for every passenger is to get away.  

The ones who stand and deal with the situation are the ones who have been trained to stand and deal with a situation - in this country that usually means only LEOs, security and serving/former CF members - a very small percentage of the population.


----------



## George Wallace

Aren't "Hindsight" and "Armchair Generaling" great?    :


----------



## Greymatters

You disagree?


----------



## George Wallace

Greymatters said:
			
		

> You disagree?



I think some have stated it quite logically already, after listening to some of the comments from passengers on the bus.  The more sensible and quickest to react, hustled the remainder of the passengers off the bus after assessing the situation.  Once getting the passengers off the bus, the Driver, a passenger and a Trucker disabled the bus and then entered the bus to try a rescue of the victim, only to realize it was too late and there was nothing they could do for him, nor could they take on an armed madman.  They did their best to secure the bus until police arrived.  As this was in the middle of the Prairie, someone else had the presence of mind to call the Police in a timely manner.  I would say the these people handled themselves quite well in a very unusual and tragic event.

What else do you people expect of the passengers and Driver?  What other measures do you think could have REASONABLY been in effect to prevent such a tragedy?  How often do you think an act like this is to occur again?  

So YES.......Aren't "Hindsight" and "Armchair Generaling" great?   :


----------



## Greymatters

Hmmm... I think you took my post the wrong way.  I wasnt categorizing the actions of every person on that particular bus as I wasnt there and didnt see how each person reacted.  My comment was more on our society in general.  But if you want to discuss armchair generals, that tends to apply to most everyone when discussing past events...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

MG34 said:
			
		

> I have to question the actions of of the other passangers, they ran like the sheep 90% of Canadians are. How anyone can run away instead of taking action is beyond me.Truly a disgusting statement on how cowardly and weak the citizens of this nation have become.



..and I totally disagree with you.  The main job in this situation would be to save the most possible from the threat of DEADLY FORCE, and then make an assesment.

You are 100% wrong about the actions that they took.........


----------



## Neill McKay

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Just as there's a bad side to due process there's also a good side to vigilante justice.  The argument about 'innocent' people being attacked is invalid since innocent people get convicted by due process anyway.



No, it's quite a valid argument against vigilante justice.  The courts have safeguards in place to avoid convicting innocent people.  In fact, the entire justice system is structured that way, with the burden of proof on the prosecution and the belief that it's far better to let a criminal go free than to convict an innocent person.

A mob of vigilantes has no such safeguards, nor has it any accountability when it gets it wrong (as the justice system does).



			
				Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Too bad the cops couldn't have seen fit to 'discharge their sidearms in self-defence'.



I've never been a cop so I'm hardly an expert but I suspect that shooting anyone is just about the last thing most cops ever want to do, regardless of whether it's deserved.


----------



## EW

Greymatters said:
			
		

> The reason for this falls into the old saying "train like you fight".  Nowadays,  we are sent the same message: "don't use violence'; 'let the proper authorities handle the situation'; 'you don't have the right to physically handle another person no matter that they did'; 'you don't have the right to protect yourself or your family, wait for trained persons to deal with the situation'.
> 
> Herosim is dead.  Initiative has been crushed.  The concept of acting out goodwill or societal stewardship, preserving life or preventing further violence, has been strangled by politics and bureaucracy.  No one is taught to deal with a crisis situation where there is no law enforcement present or able to respond quickly.  Everyone is taught that violence is not a solution and there are harsh penalties for using force if you aren't carrying a badge or you can be sued in court.  Its no surprise that the first response for every passenger is to get away.
> 
> The ones who stand and deal with the situation are the ones who have been trained to stand and deal with a situation - in this country that usually means only LEOs, security and serving/former CF members - a very small percentage of the population.



You can find plenty of examples of average Canadians engaging a criminal.  The police in Vancouver recently praised a couple of different incidents of citizens getting involved when the situation was so grave that waiting for first responders could have led to loss of life.   One was http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=3673afae-7cd9-4954-91ec-cfbe270761a1.  Another recent example of people getting involved, and not just reporting the crime and waiting for the cops to do all the work-  http://www.nationalpost.com/rss/story.html?id=659537

Not hard to find examples of situations where good Samaritans also got involved, found themselves over their heads and paid a price for it http://www.thestar.com/Crime/article/420014
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/editorials/story.html?id=ec1c3327-92a8-4219-b482-a8dfa9467a03


----------



## Good2Golf

Just something to think about, but for all those folks questioning the actions of the other passengers, in particular by describing them as "cowardly", the fact that the bus was evacuated in an effective manner and secured, and a group went back in to take further action speaks volumes.  Imagine another outcome: passengers get into a wrestling match with the assailant, more people are injured or killed, driver incapacitated or worse.

I am rather tired of hearing groups, in particular it seems that much criticism comes from South of the border, bemoan the lack of action by Canadians, and then taking things on an ugly tangential twist thereafter regarding society as a whole.  Why don't those critiquing this situation also tell us why , on October 3, 2001, upstanding American citizens took little action to stop an assailant from slitting the throat of the driver of a Greyhound bus in Tennessee, the resulting loss of control and crash killing six passengers and the attacker?  Should we even start asking why more action wasn't taken by bystanders in many of the attacks around our nations?  High school shootings, etc...?

That some people have the nerve to critique that actions of others when they weren't there themselves to see what actually took place...that takes gall!  I find it almost laughable listening to someone state how they would have taken actions to stop the attack....those are just words, and I don't consider it anything more than bluster!  No one knows how they would truly act in such a situation until you were actually in such a situation.

I don't know any of the medical details of the injuries, but I suspect that after the first few strikes, there was little that could have been done to save the victim.  That everyone else is alive and uninjured, and the assailant was captured is all that someone could hope for. 

G2G


----------



## observor 69

Thanks for that G2G. I haven't got the patience or time to spend dealing with such poorly thoughtout responses.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

I don't know any of the medical details of the injuries, but I suspect that after the first few strikes, there was little that could have been done to save the victim.  That everyone else is alive and uninjured, and the assailant was captured is all that someone could hope for. 

G2G
[/quote]



 We could hope for the death penalty to keep people like Li from breathing another breath AFTER thier actions. there is ALWAYS more to hope for.

 Cheers.


----------



## Celticgirl

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> That some people have the nerve to critique that actions of others when they weren't there themselves to see what actually took place...that takes gall!  I find it almost laughable listening to someone state how they would have taken actions to stop the attack....those are just words, and I don't consider it anything more than bluster!  No one knows how they would truly act in such a situation until you were actually in such a situation.



Hear, hear! Very well-put, G2G. 

I think we should all be grateful that only one person was killed in this incident and that the assailant was captured (_thanks to the actions of the other passengers and bus driver_). This was a tragedy, for sure, but it could have easily been a much greater tragedy.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Although, I too at first said, why was there nothing done by the other passengers, it also gave me food for thought on what else could have happened...

Woman, good Samaritan killed in Brampton stabbing
Posted: April 30, 2008, 4:31 PM by Melissa Leong 
Crime
Peel Regional Police are investigating a multiple stabbing at a strip mall northwest of Toronto that left a woman and a Good Samaritan dead in a parking lot outside a pizza shop. 

Police received a call at 12:35 p.m. Wednesday of a report of a group of people involved in a knife fight. It's believed a man fatally stabbed a woman. Police say a male passerby tried to intervene in the attack, but he was fatally stabbed as well.

After he was stabbed, the good Samaritan ran into a hair salon and died.

"I'm very upset because my worker is so just so upset," the owner of the salon told reporters. "He was the main witness, he saw the whole thing happen."  


Const. J.P. Valade confirmed a man and a woman had been killed and two others stabbed but could not provide further details of the case because it had been turned over to Ontario’s Special Investigations Unit. A man was taken to hospital in police custody after inflicting injuries on himself, police say. 

A witness who works at A-One Pizza said he came back from a pizza delivery and saw a woman lying dead on the ground. Amrik Mander said he had never seen the woman before. He added that she looked like she was in her 30s or 40s. “There were six or seven ambulances and police everywhere,” he said.

Video footage shows police have surrounded and cordoned off the parking lot. The SIU is an independent body that investigates circumstances involving police and civilians which have resulted in serious injury.

_Canwest News Service, with a file from Global News _ 


Good Samaritan stabbed to death near Montreal police HQ
Last Updated: Thursday, August 24, 2006 | 9:15 AM ET 
CBC News 
A Good Samaritan was stabbed to death in Montreal Wednesday evening when he tried to help a woman who was being harassed on a street just steps away from police headquarters.

Police say the victim was riding his bicycle when he saw a man harassing a woman at St-Urbain Street and President Kennedy Avenue.

When he asked the man to stop, he was stabbed in the chest.

"[He] died in hospital minutes later," said police Const. Olivier Lapointe.

"We have a description of a suspect. He could be someone who is known to police — a homeless person," Lapointe said.

Police believe the woman who was being harassed may also have been homeless.

It was Montreal's 26th homicide of the year, compared to only 16 by this time last year.

Copyright © CBC 2008


Punch to head killed Good Samaritan near Edmonton bar
Victim was scrappy pipefitter who was out with friends, says dad
Last Updated: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 | 5:37 PM MT 
CBC News 
A man police said was trying to break up a fight outside a north Edmonton bar died from being punched in the head, the medical examiner said Tuesday.


Randy Lintner died after trying to stop a fight outside an Edmonton bar, said police.
(CBC) 
Randy George Lintner, 46, died from head trauma as a direct result of a punch to the head, an autopsy concluded.

Police were called to a fight outside the Canadian Brewhouse near 127th Avenue and 97th Street just after midnight on Sunday. They found Lintner suffering from serious injuries. He died later in hospital.

Investigators said Tuesday it doesn't appear Lintner knew the people involved in the fight he was trying to stop.

Police have seized a vehicle believed to be the one attackers fled in, but they said they have not yet identified any possible suspects or established how many people were involved in the incident.

Lintner's father, Ken, told CBC News on Tuesday his son had always been a "scrapper." The pipefitter worked all over Alberta and had been staying with him since Christmas.


Paramedics found Lintner with serious injuries in the parking lot of an Edmonton bar.
(CBC) 
On Saturday night, Lintner headed out with friends, telling his dad to leave the door unlocked because he would likely be home late. But when they arrived at the bar, they saw a fight in the parking lot.

According to what friends and police told Ken Linter, Randy yelled that he was going to call the police and walked over to try to break it up but was punched in the head.

Witnesses said it took several minutes for emergency crews to respond on Sunday.

Paramedics arrived within three minutes but had to wait about 20 minutes for police to arrive to secure the scene, which is standard procedure, officials said Monday. They said officers were tied up with several serious calls that came in at the same time.

But Ken Lintner said the delay doesn't matter because police told him his son was brain-dead almost immediately after being hit and falling to the pavement.

Randy Lintner, who leaves behind two sons in their 20s, is Edmonton's first homicide of 2008

Copyright © CBC 2008




In Ireland, 

City's Good Samaritan dies after aiding pub attack man 
By Kathryn Hayes 
Monday June 09 2008 

A GOOD Samaritan who went to the aid of a man who was being assaulted has died in hospital.

Mike Cronin (41) from Limerick city, suffered a serious head injury when he tried to intervene in a row near a pub in Limerick four weeks ago.

He was initially taken to the Mid Western Regional Hospital but was subsequently transferred to Cork University Hospital where he died at about 6.30 yesterday morning.

It is understood the 41-year-old went to the defence of a young man who was being assaulted near Quinlivan's pub, on the Hyde Road, between 10.30pm and 11pm on Sunday May 11.

Struck

But as he tried to help, he was struck and fell to the ground.

There were a number of witnesses at the scene who were questioned by gardai, but no arrests have been made since the incident.

Mr Cronin, originally from Coonagh on the outskirts of Limerick, had been living in the Hyde Road area of Limerick city. 

Police said the incident took place between the traffic lights at Carey's Road junction and Colbert railway station on the Hyde Road. 

Manslaughter

A post-mortem examination on Mr Cronin is due to be carried out today by State Pathologist Marie Cassidy. She will travel to Cork to carry out the tests. Depending on the results, the gardai may decide to upgrade their assault investigation to a murder or manslaughter inquiry.

"An intensive investigation was carried out following this incident and our inquiries will continue," said one source.

Anyone with any information is asked to contact Roxboro garda station on 061 214340.

A spokesperson for Cork University Hospital yesterday confirmed that Mr Cronin had died there yesterday morning.

Funeral arrangements are expected to be confirmed later today.

- Kathryn Hayes 

©Independent.ie 


Let's face it, by the time this degenerate had the attention of the other passengers, Tim Maclean was dead.  There was absolutely nothing the passengers could do but leave the bus, and hold him until the authorities arrived.  

Anyone who claims they would have done something other than what those passenger did, to be candid, are talking through the side of their mouths IMO.  At that point you are dealing with a crazed murder, with a knife and a victims head in hand.

dileas

tess


----------



## Thompson_JM

+ 1 Tess...

You cant save everyone all the time.... save the ones you know you can....  

I like to think I've got a little bit of courage in me, but if I'm faced with a knife wielding Crazed person who may not feel pain or be there mentally, my first thought is not to go toe to toe.... its to get people and myself back and secure the area if possible... I think what the driver and those others on the bus did was pretty damned smart.... 

I'm not gonna armchair this one, because until I'm confronted with that situation, I wont know how I'm going to react.... I liked to think I would'nt loose my S#@$ in a mortar attack but until mothers day last year I never knew how it would pan out.... I'm glad I held my own, like most of the guys I was with in MSG, but until you're in the moment, and the S@#$ hits the fan, you really Do Not know what you will do. You can just hope, and assume that whatever training you might have gotten will kick in.

A bus full of Cops and Soldiers might have handled it differently.... this was a bus full of common folk, ordinary people who rarely encounter violence or aggression in their daily life, and who were on a sleepy red-eye bus trip through the praries.... I say Good on em for reacting as quickly and as well as they did.  

end rant.

- Tommy


----------



## aesop081

Raise your hand if you were there, in that bus, at that time ..........

Yeah thats what i thought 

 :


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

Folks,
  We can question the actions of everyone on the bus til we are blue in the face. Simple fact is, that it will not resurrect the victim. He is gone and finger pointing and calling the passengers and the driver cowards  will not change things one iota. They have to live with what happened. How many times have our guys have been forced to live with something they could not change or were ordered not to....something to ponder.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Tommy said:
			
		

> A bus full of Cops and Soldiers might have handled it differently.... .



..and I would hope not.


----------



## leroi

I believe the person demonstrating the greatest presence of mind, Canton--I think that was his surname--did the best thing possible by controlling the scene: stopping the vehicle, evacuating civilians, confining the perpetrator to the bus.  It's significant to me that he was (and might still be) a member of the CF. I think we civilians,  and you, his colleagues should be proud of that fact.  He acted quickly and decisively.

Given the close proximity of the victim to the perpetrator ... given the brutality and force used I doubt there was time to save the victim.

I grieve for the family ... but as some others on this thread mentioned, the criticism of  the witnesses  (mis)handling of the incident, especially coming from south of the border, has gone way too far...


----------



## retiredgrunt45

What really gets my goat is when people start saying "Oh I would have handled that differently, or why didn't someone do this or that". Rubbish! Every situation is different and unless we were there personally we haven't a clue. I'm just thankfull that a few people had the presence of mind to do what they did to keep anyone else from getting hurt.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Just something to think about, but for all those folks questioning the actions of the other passengers, in particular by describing them as "cowardly", the fact that the bus was evacuated in an effective manner and secured, and a group went back in to take further action speaks volumes.  Imagine another outcome: passengers get into a wrestling match with the assailant, more people are injured or killed, driver incapacitated or worse.



Ok lets try my version.

"Citizens restrain and disarm knife-weilding man, provide first aid to seriously injured man who was only stabbed 3 times, none fatally, until EMT and RCMP arrive.  Several passengers regarded as 'heros' by victims family.

For all of you that say they did the right thing by NOT intervening...I ask you all this:

*Replace that poor 22 year old with the person you care about the most in your life; a child, your spouse, whoever.  Stop for a second, and think of this POS with his knife, driving it into their chest. *  Now, I am one of those passengers, 6 feet tall, 235 lbs.  What do you want me to do?  Do my best to try to stop the lunatic, or run up the bus yelling "everyone off!"

Its pretty easy to sit back and say "job well done" if you are one of the people in this country that don't have the gonads to step up when someone really needs it.  

Who am I to say?  Let me ask this..who here that is weighing in here has ever been attacked by someone with a knife?

Yep, my hand is raised.  I was lucky enough to disarm the guy with the knife 'cause he was drunk, but it didn't stop him from trying to drive it into my throat more than once while he was screaming "I'm gonna ****** kill you!" over and over.  I sure would have appreciated some help, too.

So, for the comments about 'armchair generals', all of you who have never faced a blade coming your way at high speed with force and intent, maybe you'd feel different if you ever actually faced this yourself...and walked away.


----------



## Good2Golf

Such a pity you weren't on the bus to save the day, then...  :


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Such a pity you weren't on the bus to save the day, then...  :



In this case, I've been there, done that.  Have you?

The use of sarcasm by you does not validate your opinion.  Having a different opinion than myself does not make you correct, or right.  Not does my opinion, in my case.  They are just opinions, but I am guessing you've never had someone trying to cut your throat with a knife, but I have.  I haven't landed a chopper before, ever.  Do you really care what my opinion is, knowing I haven't BTDT??

Again...replace the 22 year old victim with the person nearest and dearest to you, G2G, and tell me you'd want those people to do what they did, or in some of our opinions, what they didn't do.

I would have done something.  For that, you call me a fool.

For me, I think of those that COULD have (by virtue of size, strength, numbers, whatever) done something, and didn't, are cowards.  I'd prefer to die a man than live a coward.

Each to their own, though.


----------



## MedTechStudent

I don't understand why this is an argument.  Everyone has their own opinion on what happened, or how *they* would or would not have acted if they had been there.  Thankfully nobody here had to find out did they?  Arguing about this is completely off topic to what happened and takes people's attention from the real issue that a man is dead, for nothing.

I'm not nearly as concerned with everyone's accusations, arguments, or self defense opinions as I am with the guy who was killed.  And what's being done to ensure the *too vulgar to say on army.ca* spends the rest of his life in a cell.

Part of me thinks that his lawyer is going to go for the insanity plea and get him moved to a mental facility.  I mean what he did was defiantly psychotic but that does not mean he is "insane".  What do you think the odds of this defense being used are?


Anyways just wanted to state my opinion and to ask that question.  Hope someone can contribute to it before it gets LOCKED up on the grounds of treading water.


Cheers, Kyle


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> In this case, I've been there, done that.  Have you?



No you were not. You were somwhere else doing something different in a different situation.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> No you were not. You were somwhere else doing something different in a different situation.



Sure I wasn't on that bus;  I never said I was.  I did say, I was attacked by someone with a knife before.  And I sure wish I had of had some help during the initial scuffle.  It was not a situation where I knew it was going to happen.  It was quick and caught me off guard, thank god the guy was wrecked and his hand speed was off.

Folks, these are opinions.  Opinions are not facts, and therefore not something that can be right, or wrong, per say.  As we all have our opinions, we all also present, and stand by them, atleast until such time as someone presents a argument that changes our opinions.

I am not, nor have I said, that intervention WOULD have saved his life.  I am saying it COULD have.  I can't say when he was dead, it may have been the first, or last, strike with the weapon.  

Had I of been the guy in the seat in front of this, I can say, knowing myself, I would have tried to grab the guys arm, yelling at someone else to 'stop the fuckin bus and get everyone one off'.  Would it have saved the poor soul?  I have no idea and never will, but my argument is it might have.

Again, opinions; thats all.  If you can't stand by your own opinion, defend it even, whats the point in even having one?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> In this case, I've been there, done that.  Have you?
> 
> The use of sarcasm by you does not validate your opinion.  Having a different opinion than myself does not make you correct, or right.  Not does my opinion, in my case.  They are just opinions, but I am guessing you've never had someone trying to cut your throat with a knife, but I have.  I haven't landed a chopper before, ever.  Do you really care what my opinion is, knowing I haven't BTDT??
> 
> Again...replace the 22 year old victim with the person nearest and dearest to you, G2G, and tell me you'd want those people to do what they did, or in some of our opinions, what they didn't do.
> 
> I would have done something.  For that, you call me a fool.
> 
> For me, I think of those that COULD have (by virtue of size, strength, numbers, whatever) done something, and didn't, are cowards.  I'd prefer to die a man than live a coward.
> 
> Each to their own, though.




Bullshit......the only reason you are alive is because your assailent wasn't proficient. Only in the movies does someone with a knife, and the ability to use it properly, get disarmed by an unarmed person.


Your attitude would have only made a terrible situation worse.................


----------



## old medic

If your eyes are closed and your MP3 player is on, and the assailant gets one or two free plunges of the 
knife into your neck, you will not survive.  Especially not on a highway 20km outside town.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Bullshit......the only reason you are alive is because your assailent wasn't proficient. Only in the movies does someone with a knife, and the ability to use it properly, get disarmed by an unarmed person.
> 
> 
> Your attitude would have only made a terrible situation worse.................



You know this to be a FACT do you?  Being 1) you have no idea of the situation 2) you are passing your opinion off as fact, I'll clear this up and say the only reason I am alive is because it was a full moon and I caught a glint off the blade as he raised it over his head, but thanks for your input.

I've seen people with knives disarmed before, who knew how to use them, and it wasn't in any movie.  It was outside Micheals Pizzaria back home.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

old medic said:
			
		

> If your eyes are closed and your MP3 player is on, and the assailant gets one or two free plunges of the
> knife into your neck, you will not survive.  Especially not on a highway 20km outside town.



I can't comment on anything in the medical side of this debate, but I thought he had been stabbing him in the chest initially, not the neck...not that that is much better.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Yea, OK.

http://www.crimefilenews.com/2006/03/gun-vs-knife.html

http://www.policeone.com/news_internal.asp?view=113907


----------



## Ðetermination

Its no doubt this piece of @#$! should be dead in any horrific way people can think of and he'd deserve it, but its done..this is getting pretty heated..theres nothing any of us can do about it so why are you at each others throats...?


----------



## old medic

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080803/beheading_suspect_080803?s_name=&no_ads=


> Vince Weiguang Li, 40, who immigrated to Canada from China in 2004, ......



Lets see.. minimum 3 years residency after becoming a permanent resident to apply for citizenship
http://www.cic.gc.ca/English/resources/publications/howto-e.asp


> You must have lived in Canada for at least three years (1,095 days) out of the four years immediately before you apply for citizenship.




http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-pr.asp


> What permanent residents cannot do
> 
> As a permanent resident, you and your dependants cannot:
> 
> * Vote or run for political office
> * Hold certain jobs that have a high-level security clearance requirement
> * Remain in Canada if you are convicted of a serious criminal offence and have been told to leave the country.



Has anyone seen any news items that mentioned his citizenship status ? 

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080803/beheading_suspect_080803?s_name=&no_ads=


> The church's congregation has offered to support Li's wife, who Castor said is in shock and afraid for her future in Canada.



Sounds like they only have residency status when I read that.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Yea, OK.
> 
> http://www.crimefilenews.com/2006/03/gun-vs-knife.html
> 
> http://www.policeone.com/news_internal.asp?view=113907



The video on the first link didn't work.  

RE: the Pizzaria?  Thats a true story.  A local dealer,  and a friend of mine who hates dealers,  had a long standing feud and squared off one night.  Dealer boy pulled a Bowie on him;  my friend was a student *beyond 1st Dan* in chito-ryu, student of BJJ and things of that nature, disarmed him, and rather impressively I'll add.  It wasn't me, so I'm not making it up to make myself look good, I just happened to be there.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Ðetermination said:
			
		

> Its no doubt this piece of @#$! should be dead in any horrific way people can think of and he'd deserve it, but its done..this is getting pretty heated..theres nothing any of us can do about it so why are you at each others throats...?



Debating our opinions is all this is, Determination.  We all have pretty thick skins and the expected inability to let someone else's opinion influence and change ours without SOME fireworks.   8)


----------



## Pelorus

MedTechStudent said:
			
		

> Part of me thinks that his lawyer is going to go for the insanity plea and get him moved to a mental facility.  I mean what he did was defiantly psychotic but that does not mean he is "insane".  What do you think the odds of this defense being used are?



Now I am not trained in the law in any way, but in my opinion I think that it's close to a 100% chance that he enters an insanity plea.  People stab each other all the time, the reason that this particular case is getting so much media coverage is due to the disturbing events that happened to the victim postmortem.  Someone in their right state of mind does not intentionally murder an innocent person, much less remove their head.  Whether the suspect in this case qualifies for a judgement not guilty by reason of insanity is for the courts to decide.


----------



## a_majoor

While it might be comforting to think that there will be a Todd Beamer on every bus, train, aircraft or other public conveyance you happen to be on, the fact is most people are not trained or mentally prepared/conditioned to take action in a situation like that. Even if there was a would be rescuer in the crowd, I suspect subduing the attacker would have been insanely difficult as the good Samaritan tried to grapple with the knife wielder in a narrow aisle possibly filled with paniced people trying to escape....and there would possibly be two or more victims today.

The biggest danger is people trying to hijack this event to impose more control and regulation against ordinary citizens

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/08/03/the-post-editorial-board-on-the-greyhound-murder-the-government-s-best-policy-response-is-to-do-nothing.aspx



> *The Post editorial board on the Greyhound murder: The government's best policy response is to ... do nothing*
> Posted: August 03, 2008, 5:32 PM by Jonathan Kay
> Editorial board
> 
> Notwithstanding one weird and horrifying murder aboard a prairie Greyhound bus last week, this editorial board refuses to be part of the great chain of hysteria that links hyperventilating news consumers, fearmongering TV producers and pandering politicians. Here is our suggestion for what ought to be done to upgrade the security of bus transportation after the knife killing of Tim McLean by a fellow Greyhound bus passenger: nothing. Leave the system alone. Mr. McLean could have been murdered equally easily by a random psychopath in a movie theatre or a classroom or a wine bar or a shopping mall - or on his front lawn, for that matter. Unless all of those venues, too, are to be included in the new post-Portage la Prairie security crackdown, singling out buses makes no sense.
> 
> The ranks of those who aren't capable of seeing this evidently include the opposition parties in the House of Commons. NDP MP Judy Wasylycia-Leis, for instance, called the unprovoked slaying "a wake-up call to the issue of security on mass transit."
> 
> "This incident sounds like a rare incident," she added. (The qualifier "sounds like" suggests the honourable member will have had to check with her office to get the actual annualized rate of bus-board decapitation homicides.) "But," she noted, "it raises a lot of questions about the broader issue and makes you realize there are no checks in place on buses."
> 
> Politicians love occasions that "raise questions" they don't have to answer, like "Just what sort of public space should people be able to enter without 'checks'? And is the New Democratic Party openly in favour of a police state now, or just tacitly?"
> 
> Liberal public safety critic Ujjal Dosanjh noted the obvious by saying "It's difficult to foresee armed guards on buses." He then added, however: "But the security experts from across the country have to put their heads together."
> 
> Unfortunately, the West's legitimate security experts are working full-time these days trying to eliminate expensive forms of dimwit "security theatre" that already exist in our transport system - a time-consuming kabuki that plays out, for instance, every time we take off our shoes or are forced to surrender our toothpaste before boarding a flight. Most of them would be happy just to have a short breather from moral panics.
> 
> *The irony is that both Mr. Dosanjh and Wasylycia-Leis both consider themselves political progressives - yet the security concepts they are vaguely musing about would significantly raise the cost of intercity transport for millions of Canadians who can't afford a car. Then again, what do they know about the bus industry? As denizen of Air Canada's Maple Leaf lounges, with generous Ottawa-funded travel allowances, these MPs probably haven't seen the inside of a Greyhound in decades*.
> 
> In fact, the horrified witnesses whom the national media were chasing around for interviews last week come from a demographic - working class, verging on downright poor, and living outside major metropolitan centers served by air and rail - that is more or less invisible to most politicians and large corporations. In this regard, Greyhound is a notable exception. We defy any of the gum-flappers trying to bully the company into building and staffing 24-hour inspection stations to name, or display any knowledge whatsoever of, the 80 or more potential stops that exist on various Edmonton-to-Winnipeg routes. What know you, O self-proclaimed experts, of Innisfree, Sintaluta, and Virden? Many of the pickup locations are gas stations, post offices, convenience stores, and the like. Quite a few are literally just junctions with side roads.
> 
> It would be characteristic of our modern sensibility if we were to react to one bizarre death by hiring dozens of "safety" people to loiter on highway shoulders to check the bags of bus passengers. Of course, as an alternative, Greyhound could just go ahead and eliminate most rural stops. (The people who'd miss them don't vote Liberal or NDP anyway.) But did we mention that even in the cities, riders who intend to continue their journey are constantly getting on and off the bus to have a cigarette or buy a sandwich? We can't have that either, surely. Some wackjob might have a knife stashed behind a toilet in Foam Lake.
> 
> We propose a fundamental principle to be observed at the outset of this debate: Let's not try to protect ourselves from crazy people by trying to out-crazy them. (How much happier the world would be now if a few more voices had said so after 9/11.) As a corollary, anyone who wishes for his opinion to be heard on this subject should take meticulous care that that opinion does not immediately reveal a complete ignorance of how long-range bus travel works.


----------



## GAP

A classic example here in Winnipeg is with the drowning of a couple of people at the height of the beach/swim season, there's a hue and cry by the social engineers to not allow people to swim in any area unless it is supervised.......twits!!

edited to add:

Also....the Natives want all kinds of investigations because the other day the police shot an Indian who was threatening them with a knife and wouldn't drop it....


----------



## ENGINEERS WIFE

Canada bus beheading suspect says 'please kill me' 1 hour, 56 minutes ago



PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE, Manitoba - A man accused of beheading and cannibalizing another passenger on a Greyhound bus in Canada pleaded Tuesday in court for someone to "please kill me," and was ordered to undergo a psychiatric evaluation. 

Prosecutor Joyce Dalmyn, who argued for the evaluation, revealed new details about the attack Wednesday night. She said Vince Weiguang Li had a plastic bag containing his victim's ear, nose and part of a mouth in his pocket when officers arrested him. The only response officers received from him was: "'I have to stay on the bus forever,'" Dalmyn said.

Li, who immigrated to Canada from China in 2004, is charged with second-degree murder in the slaying of 22-year-old carnival worker Tim McLean — an attack which witnesses aboard the bus said appeared to be unprovoked. He has yet to enter a plea.

Li was scheduled to appear Tuesday to determine whether he should undergo psychiatric testing, but the judge in Portage La Prairie adjourned the hearing for a short recess to allow a legal aid attorney to confer with him.

Since his arrest, Li has declined to speak to prosecutors and his court-appointed attorney.

When asked again by the judge after the recess if he wanted a lawyer, Li shook his head and then quietly said "please kill me."

Li's remark was heard by reporters and confirmed by court clerks, but was not acknowledged by the judge. He is due back in court Sept. 8.

Thirty-seven passengers were aboard the Greyhound from Edmonton, Alberta, to Winnipeg, Manitoba, as it traveled at night along a desolate stretch of the TransCanada Highway about 12 miles from Portage La Prairie. Some were napping and others watching the movie "The Legend of Zorro" on bus television screens when Li attacked McLean, allegedly stabbing him dozens of times.

As horrified passengers fled the bus, Li severed McLean's head, displaying it to some of the passengers outside the bus, witnesses said. He then began hacking at the body.

A police officer at the scene reported seeing the attacker hacking off pieces of the victim's body and eating them, according to a police tape leaked on the Internet.

A church pastor, Tom Castor, who helped hire Li soon after he immigrated in 2004 with his wife, Anna, said the man never showed any sign of anger or emotional problems when he worked there as a custodian. Church officials said they vetted Li by contacting references listed on his application and running a criminal record check.

More than 105,000 people have joined an online memorial group for McLean.


----------



## gunnz23

Of course this was a stressful and scary time for many of the passengers, I saw one guy inviewed on a tv station who was on the bus ( saw the clip on liveleak) say he was ex army or something to that nature. Knife or not it would only take 2 to 3 people to secure the arms of the suspect and hold them. I think people should have tried to help , Would it have saved to young guy(who knows?) That being said it's about time that legal concealed carry is allowed for handguns, In the Us persons must under go a psych test and a concealed carry course before being issue a permit. There is no reason why we should not be able to do the same. To protect yourself your family and others around you from persons out to cause you bodily harm.


----------



## AirCanuck

This whole thing made me feel sick.  As far as people walking around with handguns, I'm not sure if I like the idea of that...  I could definitely see the amount of accidental deaths making a jump, concealed carry course or no.  Besides, I'm not sure what kind of a shot someone would have been able to make on a moving (and probably by that point violently swerving/braking) bus crowded with people.  As previously mentioned, by the time people turned around the attacker had probably had time to get in 3 or 4 stabs at leisure..


----------



## GAP

On the CTV news just now, they mentioned that Greyhound is scrapping an advertising campaign they had just started. 

It read

There is a reason why you have never heard of BUS RAGE


----------



## AirCanuck

that is RIDICULOUS.


----------



## aesop081

AirCanuck said:
			
		

> that is RIDICULOUS.



What is ?


----------



## AirCanuck

just the timing of that campaign - not scrapping it of course.


----------



## aesop081

AirCanuck said:
			
		

> just the timing of that campaign



Do you honestly think that they saw this incident comming ?

They had a campaign set up......they pulled it after the incident. You cxant blame the company for something they had done BEFORE the incident.


----------



## AirCanuck

no, no that's not what I meant....  I just meant that it was quite a coincidence, that's all.


----------



## GAP

Greyhound pulls 'bus rage' ads
Last Updated: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 | 11:48 AM ET CBC News 
Article Link

Greyhound Canada is removing all ads that were part of a campaign related to "bus rage" in the wake of last week's horrific attack against a Greyhound passenger travelling from Edmonton to Winnipeg.

The campaign featured the slogan, "There's a reason you've never heard of bus rage."

Greyhound spokesperson Abby Wambaugh said Tuesday, "Greyhound knows how important it is to get it removed and is doing everything possible."

The slogan has appeared in print and on billboards across the country. But following the attack, the company notified every vendor and asked them to cease using it.

Tim McLean, 22, was repeatedly stabbed and then beheaded by another passenger aboard a Greyhound bus travelling through Manitoba on July 30. Witnesses said the attack was unprovoked.

Wambaugh said print inserts are no longer running, but she doesn't know exactly when outdoor signs — placed in areas where there is heavy commuter traffic — will come down. One billboard has already been taken down in Western Canada, but there is still one remaining in Toronto, which she said will be coming down soon.

Wambaugh said the majority of the ads should have been taken down before the attack because the campaign had ended.
More on link


----------



## FastEddy

GAP said:
			
		

> On the CTV news just now, they mentioned that Greyhound is scrapping an advertising campaign they had just started.
> 
> It read
> 
> There is a reason why you have never heard of BUS RAGE




Probably so, that's most likely if you don't live in a City with the most discourteous Bus Drivers and Public Transport Employees. There it takes on a whole new meaning.

I think we all know what Greyhound was referring to in their catch phrase, who could possibly perdict that Tragic incident.

Cheers.


----------



## FastEddy

boot12 said:
			
		

> If we are going to spend time discussing "what ifs", then we must also state the other possible outcomes of such a situation.  Had there been someone aboard the bus who was armed and tried to take him out surrounded by lots of panicking people in an extremely cramped space such as a greyhound bus, there would been a very good chance of the poor victim still dying, except he would joined in the morgue by a couple of innocent people on board who were trying to escape with their lives.




I've read through five pages so far, which have been informative, suggestive and reasonably off the cuff, which I refrained from replying to, just for those exact reasons.

But presuming the armed person you are suggesting is a off duty Police Office (they should be the only one legally armed). Who is trained never to fire through a dense crowd of people.

And that the fleeing persons would be heading in the opposite direction from the assailant and the Police Officer towards him would eventually have a clear shot.

Considering the nature of the dire occurrence his immediate action would have been firring on the Assailant, to remove the threat to the immediate public and/or saving the victim from further assault, perhaps his life.

Even if it was a citizen carrying a concealed firearm and attempting to come to the defense of the victim, the scenario would have played out quite the same.

You ask why the RCMP did,nt fire on Li, there was no immediate threat to the public or them selves. If he had suddenly come charging out of the Bus, screaming great obscenities, you can bet we wouldn't be spending all this money for a trial.

Cheers.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

FastEddy said:
			
		

> You ask why the RCMP did,nt fire on Li, *there was no immediate threat * to the public or them selves. If he had suddenly come charging out of the Bus, screaming great obscenities, you can bet we wouldn't be spending all this money for a trial.



Except for a headless body...


----------



## AirCanuck

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Except for a headless body...



I think Eddy was right.  IMHO the headless body didn't mean he was a direct threat to anyone else - as said, had he rushed the police brandishing a weapon I'm sure he'd be in the ground, but he didn't, so he's not. I mean the guy was clearly dangerous, but not representing a DIRECT threat at that moment.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

I'd have to say considering his actions he IS a threat and should be considered as such and delt with accordingly.


----------



## geo

SNAFU,  he is a threat in what way ?
He will becoma a burden to the Citzen of Canada - YES, no doubt
but, in the condition he is in right now - he isn't.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Hand him another knife... jeez how people are so quick to put a soother in his mouth and coddle him to thier teets. This man is a brutal murderer and his actions dictate NO, NONE, ZERO,ZIP, ZILCH,NADA remorse, pity or sorrow as far as i'm concerned.

 He should be treated like the monster he IS, nothing can change him back to a human being after what he done, NOTHING!


Again just my 2 pennies worth of how busted our system really is.


----------



## geo

umm.. he no longer holds a knife - he is no longer a current threat

I am not saying that this man should be let loose on society anytime soon.
From what MsM has raked up so far, this individual has never demonstrated any monstruous or brutal tendencies.  
Something happened - I know not what
IF there was capital punishment in this country, I would agree that he would be a good candidate for the gallows BUT, we don't have that option - Let the system deal with him.


----------



## Rodahn

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> He should be treated like the monster he IS, nothing can change him back to a human being after what he done, NOTHING!



Have you considered the possibility that he may have had an adverse reaction to medication which caused this incident, or that he may have missed taking medication? Until we know the full circumstances surrounding the events leading up to it, everything else is speculation. 

If this is the case then, yes, there is definitely a failure in the system, however it is *not* the penal system which has failed. As noted earlier there have been instances of the mentally ill being handed bus tickets and sent off elsewhere, to be handled by someone else.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Again, what does anything AFTER his brutal act have anything to do with how to fix things, besides waste a crap load of taxpayer money, and bloat a few ego's in the legal/medical system?

 I can see this man getting 7 to 12 in a psych ward then being re-habbed out to the streets again, why? because everyone is dimissing the fact he's MURDERED someone and jumped straight to there has to be a LOGICAL reason he did what he did other than just wigging out and going apeshyte on the poor kid, then hand him a get out of jail free card becuase he's NOW considered unstable or mentally unfit to stand trial. SICKENING!

 Just more ammo for reform to the system.  :


----------



## old medic

See my reply on page 9...

Get him out of the country. Back to China with him once his jail time is done.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Again, what does anything AFTER his brutal act have anything to do with how to fix things, besides waste a crap load of taxpayer money, and bloat a few ego's in the legal/medical system?
> 
> I can see this man getting 7 to 12 in a psych ward then being re-habbed out to the streets again, why? because everyone is dimissing the fact he's MURDERED someone and jumped straight to there has to be a LOGICAL reason he did what he did other than just wigging out and going apeshyte on the poor kid, then hand him a get out of jail free card becuase he's NOW considered unstable or mentally unfit to stand trial. SICKENING!
> 
> Just more ammo for reform to the system.  :




So if your driving tomorrow and have a medical condition that causes you to blackout and then you hit another vehicle head on and kill 3 people I get to pull the switch on you without even a trial or medical tests??

Smart thinking there lad.....................


----------



## Fishbone Jones

I think some people have to step away from this thread for a bit. It's going pear shaped and the discussion is not bringing anything relevant or new forward.

If someone has something new, AND RELEVANT, to add, contact a Mod.

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## George Wallace

UPDATE


Family of man beheaded on bus launches lawsuit

Link to Article

*The family of a man who was attacked and beheaded by a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus is suing the bus company and the federal government for failing to ensure his safety.*

CTV.ca News Staff  

The family's lawyer, Jay Prober, says the lawsuit names Greyhound, the Attorney General of Canada and the man accused of killing Tim McLean. 

He said the statement of claim alleges that neither the bus line nor federal agencies responsible for transportation and public safety took the proper precautions. 

The lawsuit is on behalf of 13 family members and is for $150,000. 

"This lawsuit is not about money," Prober said at an afternoon news conference in Winnipeg. "It is about accountability -- about responsibility for what happened to (McLean)." 

Prober said the family wants more security put in place for bus passengers. They also want to know why the RCMP did not storm the bus to prevent the alleged acts of mutilation to the 22-year-old's body. 

"Hopefully what will come of it is that Greyhound will be held accountable, that they will put proper security measures in place, and the Government of Canada will see that the proper security measures are in place and enforced, just like they do at the airports," Prober said. 

"It's people who often can't afford to take a plane, who can't afford to take the train, who can't afford to buy a car and pay for the gas, that take a bus," he added. "Why should they be discriminated against?" 

McLean was killed the night of July 30 while taking a Greyhound bus from Edmonton to Winnipeg. 

He was stabbed and beheaded by another bus passenger near Portage la Prairie. 

Vincent Weiguang-Li, 40, has been charged with murder and is undergoing a court-order mental health assessment to determine if he's fit to stand trial. 

He is next due in court on Sept. 8. 

None of the allegations has been proven in court and a statement of defence hasn't yet been filed. 

With files from The Canadian Press


----------



## CountDC

another case of let's sue the world. Greyhound should have a cop on every bus, the government should make all bus stops have a cop there with metal detectors and body searches, everyone should be issued a gun to protect themself with.  How about we all sue the family for wasting our tax dollars on stupid lawsuits against the government that the only winner is the lawyers that encourage this crap. This of course will make the lawyers even happier as they make more money defending them.

how about - sue the suspects parents for not raising a better son, siblings for not ensuring the parents did a good job of raising them

how about the victims siblings/cousins/aunts/uncles, etc sue his parents for not ensuring he was able to protect himself from an attack by an armed man.

how about everyone sue the victim for dying - funds can be taken from his estate.

Real tired of people filing suits at everyone over everything just because they can.  Hope the bus lines and government file a frivilous suit claim on this one and have it thrown out as that is all it is.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Considering they are doing it for the POINT MADE effect and only $150,000 versus many mega millions MOST money grabbers attempt in situations like this leads me to believe these people are doing it the right way. 

 I just hope the "system" does the right thing with Li and sends his ass for a ride to hell.  :skull: Lawyers included...

 Cheers.


----------



## Neill McKay

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Considering they are doing it for the POINT MADE effect and only $150,000 versus many mega millions MOST money grabbers attempt in situations like this leads me to believe these people are doing it the right way.



Greyhound didn't do anything wrong and should not be sued.  The same is true for most of the other parties involved.

If the RCMP were deficient in their response then their public complaints commission is probably the appropriate venue to hold them to account.  

The murderer obviously did something wrong but that's a matter for the criminal courts.

The lawyer who agreed to represent the family in this foolishness clearly falls into the 99 per cent of lawyers who give the rest a bad name.


----------



## CountDC

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Considering they are doing it for the POINT MADE effect and only $150,000 versus many mega millions MOST money grabbers attempt in situations like this leads me to believe these people are doing it the right way.
> 
> I just hope the "system" does the right thing with Li and sends his *** for a ride to hell.  :skull: Lawyers included...
> 
> Cheers.



and the point would be..... my son was killed by some looney and it is the bus lines/government fault.  Still a frivolous suit to make the family feel better.  Sorry for your loss but deal with it properly - not by filing suit against the government and wasting tax dollars. True that they are not after getting rich off it - instead they are looking to justify his death in some meaningful way that will ease their pain.  Filing suit against the government and making some lawyer lots of money is not the right way to ease grief.


----------



## aesop081

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Considering they are doing it for the POINT MADE



And what is the point ?

Do you think that GH should have a security detail to search baggage at every mom-n-pop corner sore or gas station in the country where the bus stops ? What exactly is it that the family thinks could have been done to ensure safety ?

I relly do feel for the family, this was a tragedy. The person responsible for it has been aprehended already.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Trucker told police to shoot man in beheading
Updated Wed. Sep. 3 2008 9:54 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

*A truck driver who ran to help Greyhound bus passengers fleeing the brutal attack that killed Tim McLean this summer says he told police to shoot the alleged assailant. 

"I did want them to shoot him, not necessarily kill the man. I would have preferred that," Christopher Alguire told CTV's Canada AM on Wednesday. 

"With the kind of weapons (police) were carrying they could have taken (the suspect) down in a safe manner ... at least then he could not have desecrated Tim (McLean's) body." * 

Alguire was one of the first people on the scene when a Greyhound bus pulled over on a Manitoba highway during a knife-attack on July 31. McLean was stabbed and beheaded by another bus passenger near Portage la Prairie. 

Alguire said he knew passengers were in trouble when he saw them rushing off the bus. He pulled his semi-truck over on the side of the road and ran to help passengers get to a safe area behind his truck. 

At first he thought the bus may have had an electrical fire. But he soon realized something much worse had happened. 

"I truly did not think it was going to be a murder scene like this," he said. 

Alguire rushed to help the bus driver keep the bus door closed so that the assailant could not get off and hurt anyone else. At one point he ran on to the bus with a lead pipe. 

"I wanted to protect (McLean), too, regardless of the situation I had to put myself in. It's just something I do, I guess," Alguire said. 

He and the bus driver realized that McLean was dead, got off the bus and held the door shut with the alleged assailant still inside. 

Alguire noted he supports the family in a lawsuit they launched Tuesday against Greyhound, the Attorney General of Canada and the man accused of killing McLean. 

"I'm really sad for the McLean family ... No family should have to go though burying their son ... (in a manner) like this," he said. 

Vincent Weiguang-Li, 40, has been charged with murder and is undergoing a court-order mental health assessment to determine if he's fit to stand trial. He is next due in court on Sept. 8.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Much as some would have wanted to shoot that person it would also have been murder.........


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I agree with the comments that, althought I respect the family in their grief, I do not think this is the right avenure to deal with that.  Some lawyer will be able to fatten his/her bank account off of this, the poor soul will not be brought back to life, and I don't suspect their grief will be swept away.  This is, IMO, clearly one of those "it never happens" cases that no one could have foreseen or prevented. 

This is not a case where I am comfortable seeing the word "alleged" about the POS who did it;  I don't want to hear about "innocent until proven guilty" and all the PC lectures that might follow my comment either.  A young man had his head cut off, we ALL know the POS that was arrested did it.  Is there anyone that REALLY is going to debate whether he did it or not, or that it was some magic bus gremlins and this POS is taking the fall for them?  

Personally, I would have had no issue if the police would have put a few rounds into this piece of crap.  Or ship him off home, he's already getting free food in the detention system that my tax dollars have to pay for.  While the act was not something anyone could have known would happen, it doesn't change the my opinion that the preventative/deterrant effect and the 'after the fact' (sentence lengths, early releases, etc) effects of our Justice system are lacking and laughable.


----------



## GAP

There is no need for this lawsuit......except to get money.

There is nothing the bus company/RCMP/local government could have done to prevent this without changing the industry to a paranoid status...


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I don't want to hear about "innocent until proven guilty" and all the PC lectures that might follow my comment either.



I am the least PC guy you will ever meet. "inocent until proven guilty" is not something that is PC.

He will have his day in court, get over it.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> I am the least PC guy you will ever meet. "inocent until proven guilty" is not something that is PC.
> 
> He will have his day in court, get over it.



Innocent until proven guilty...IMO is based somewhat on the 'reasonable doubt' idea within our legal system, that one must be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.  I don't see any doubt in this case...do you?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Yup.............I didn't witness it.


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I don't see any doubt in this case...do you?



Hes been charged with second degree murder. I'm sure that the crown will brove that he is guilty of *THAT* beyond a reasonable doubt. None the less, the crown has to prove that he did not do it as a result of mental defect or other circumstances. If i follow your logic, theres no need for an investigation.

 :


----------



## Neill McKay

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Is there anyone that REALLY is going to debate whether he did it or not, or that it was some magic bus gremlins and this POS is taking the fall for them?



Likely not, but there may well be some debate over whether or not his mental condition allows him to make sensible decisions and his eventual sentence may be reflected in the outcome of that.


----------



## aesop081

As flawed as our justice system is, i will take one that starts with "inocent until proven guilty" over a system that carts you off as guilty until you can someohow manage to prove that you are not, any day of the week.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Hes been charged with second degree murder. I'm sure that the crown will brove that he is guilty of *THAT* beyond a reasonable doubt. None the less, the crown has to prove that he did not do it as a result of mental defect or other circumstances. If i follow your logic, theres no need for an investigation.
> :



I think what I am saying is there is no doubt that he did it, rather than *why* he did it.  I can't comment on the why, or if he is fit to stand trial, etc.  Even if he is found not criminally responsible due to being mentally whatever, he still *DID* it.  Its not like when the Mounties rolled up there was him and 2 others in the bus, and they are all saying "I didn't do it!" and now a lengthy investigation and trial will follow.



			
				N. McKay said:
			
		

> Likely not, but there may well be some debate over whether or not his mental condition allows him to make sensible decisions and his eventual sentence may be reflected in the outcome of that.



Agreed, per my reply above.  I won't speculate on the why part, of if he is legally responsible, etc.  None of that will change the fact that he did it, though.  



			
				CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> As flawed as our justice system is, i will take one that starts with "inocent until proven guilty" over a system that carts you off as guilty until you can someohow manage to prove that you are not, any day of the week.



Come on now, thats not what I said.  I said in this case, I think we can drop the use of the word "allegedly" WRT if he did it or not.  You're not really going to sit here and suggest that perhaps someone else did the act, are you?  If you want to take a stance in opposition of mine, fine but please don't have me saying things I never said.

Regardless of that, I still feel sorrow for the family that must try to come to terms with their loss but can't say I support this avenue of legal action they are pursuing; it won't change what happened and I don't see any reasonable way to ensure it doesn't happen ever again.


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Its not like when the Mounties rolled up there was him and 2 others in the bus, and they are all saying "I didn't do it!" and now a lengthy investigation and trial will follow.



Have you ever been to a trial ?

Alot of trial doesnt deal with who did it but why and under what circumstances. Hes been chaged with second degree murder but is he guilty of that or is he guilty of something else or is he "not guilty by reason of mental defect" ?

You have no clue, thus the need for "inocent until proven guilty".


----------



## Eye In The Sky

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Have you ever been to a trial ?



Yes.



> Alot of trial doesnt deal with who did it but why and under what circumstances. Hes been chaged with second degree murder but is he guilty of that or is he guilty of something else or is he "not guilty by reason of mental defect" ?
> 
> You have no clue, thus the need for "inocent until proven guilty".



In my mind (and probably 99% of people familiar with what happened), there is no doubt it was he who committed the act.  The rest of the legal mumbo-jumbo, I'll leave to the lawyers.  In our society, it can be factual that he committed the act; his guilt of the charges laid against him are what the courts will decide.  2 seperate issues to me, and I never commented on the guilt or innocence of the man of the charges, only that he is the one who did the killing.  I don't see any information contrary to the fact.  I don't understand all the legalities of mental defect and such, so I stay away from making comments on his guilt of the charges.


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> In my mind (and probably 99% of people familiar with what happened), there is no doubt it was he who committed the act.



Theres no doubt in my mind that he is the one who caused the death of the victim. Even his lawyer (IMHO) wouldnt say that hes not the one. That fact is hardly in dispute.

That and wether he is guilty or not of the charges against him are not seperate issues.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Theres no doubt in my mind that he is the one who caused the death of the victim. Even his lawyer (IMHO) wouldnt say that hes not the one. That fact is hardly in dispute.



Which is what I meant in my original post today...although I was alittle ticked off when I wrote it seeing the word "alleged"...hence my little rant in mid-post.

I have no opinion if he is guilty and leave that to our courts.


----------



## aesop081

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> although I was alittle ticked off when I wrote it seeing the word "alleged"...



Why ?

He is alledged to have commited 2nd degree murder. This has not been proven yet.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Trucker told police to shoot man in beheading
> Updated Wed. Sep. 3 2008 9:54 AM ET
> 
> CTV.ca News Staff
> 
> *A truck driver who ran to help Greyhound bus passengers fleeing the brutal attack that killed Tim McLean this summer says he told police to shoot the alleged assailant.
> 
> *


*

It was from this article, actually.*


----------



## old medic

Given that this defendant has a medical condition that makes him an economic burden on Canada,
I suggest a review of his citizenship application should now begin, to determine if there
is cause to revoke his Canadian citizenship and send him back to China. 

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/news-nouv/nr-cp/2007/doc_32019.html 

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/01/20/mason-uk.html


Bus beheading verdict due Thursday
By DEAN PRITCHARD, Sun Media   4th March 2009
http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/manitoba/2009/03/04/8627041.html


> Lawyers for Vincent Li and the Crown joined together this morning to urge a judge to find the accused not criminally responsible for the gruesome slaying of Tim McLean aboard a Greyhound bus.
> 
> "The Crown can not ask this court to convict Mr. Li of second-degree murder when all the evidence points to the conclusion he was not criminally responsible for his actions," said Crown attorney Joyce Dalmyn this morning.
> 
> Dalmyn expressed sympathy for the pain suffered by McLean's family, but said the Crown cannot "take their direction" in determining an appropriate verdict.
> 
> McLean's family members have been vocal in their call that Li be convicted of murder and sentenced to life in custody.
> 
> Outside court, McLean's mother said she told reporters she was disappointed by the Crown's position, and described the trial as a "rubber stamp process."
> 
> "We knew going in that this was very likely what was going to take place," said Carol deDelley.
> 
> "The laws are grossly inadequate in circumstances like this. NCR may have its place or may be correct in some circumstances. I don't think so, not in this one. And now every year we will have to undergo a review to ensure the public is safe from Mr. Li."
> 
> Two forensic psychiatrists have testified Li suffers from schizophrenia and was under the thrall of auditory hallucinations when he stabbed, dismembered and decapitated McLean. The psychiatrists testified Li believed he was receiving directions from God to kill McLean. Li believed McLean was an "evil force" who would murder Li if Li did not strike first.
> 
> The Crown and defence are asking that Li remain in secure custody in the psychiatric ward of Health Sciences Centre until a hearing can be scheduled before the mental health review board.
> 
> Justice John Scurfield adjourned court and will deliver his verdict tomorrow morning. Scurfield said he wanted time to review medical reports in the case and set down his verdict in writing.
> 
> "Hopefully (I can) express it in a way that is understandable to Mr. McLean's family, Mr. Li and and the public in general," Scurfield said.


----------



## Sheerin

Li has been found to not be criminally responsible for his actions

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2009/03/05/mb-li-verdict.html


> *Greyhound bus killer found not criminally responsible*
> Vince Li has been found not criminally responsible in the unprovoked killing and beheading of fellow passenger Timothy McLean on a Greyhound bus last summer.
> 
> Manitoba Court of Queen's Bench Judge John Scurfield said Thursday that Li, 40, could not be found guilty of murder and is not criminally responsible for the crime because he was mentally ill at the time of the killing.
> 
> "These grotesque acts are appalling... but are suggestive of a mental disorder," the judge said.
> 
> "He did not appreciate the act he committed was wrong."
> 
> Li had pleaded not guilty to a charge of second-degree murder. Psychiatric evidence at his trial suggested he is a schizophrenic who suffered a major psychotic episode last July 30 when he stabbed McLean, 22, to death, ate some of the young victim's body parts and cut off McLean's head.
> 
> For five hours after the killing Li wandered around on the bus, from which passengers had fled onto a lonely stretch of Manitoba highway, defiling the body while an RCMP tactical team waited to subdue him.
> 
> Rather than go to prison, Li will be kept in a secure psychiatric facility, most likely in Selkirk, Man.
> 
> McLean, a carnival worker, was returning home to Winnipeg on the bus from Edmonton. Listening to his iPod while sitting in the back row of Greyhound bus 1170, he gave Li a friendly greeting as the stranger sat down beside him.
> 
> Then, around 8:30 p.m. CT, when the bus was near Portage La Prairie, Man., Li pulled a buck knife from his side and began stabbing the young man — for no apparent reason, witnesses said. Passengers fled the bus and RCMP were called as Li was barricaded inside the vehicle.
> 
> During the stabbing Li was heard to say, "get emergency." In a five-hour standoff with RCMP, Li severed McLean's head from his body, ate some body parts and stuffed other parts into plastic bags that he put in his pockets. He wandered around the bus carrying the severed head in one hand, the knife in the other. At one point he threw the severed head into the bus's stairwell.
> 
> When police finally subdued him, Li repeatedly said he was sorry but could not say what he was sorry for, officers said. He told police he had changed his name to Vince Day. And on one occasion he told police, "I'm guilty, please kill me."
> 
> In his trial this week, psychiatrists said Li was schizophrenic and suffering a major psychotic episode at the time of the frenzied killing.
> 
> Li heard voices from God telling him that McLean was an evil threat that needed to be eliminated, the psychiatrists said. Even after the killing, Li believed McLean might come back to life and threaten him. The psychiatrists testified Li fit the criteria as someone who was not criminally responsible for their actions due to mental illness.
> 
> That means he will be sent to a provincial psychiatric facility rather than to prison. He comes under the jurisdiction of Manitoba's provincial review board, which will decide whether he poses a risk to the public. The review board has the power to keep Li locked up indefinitely or, if he is no longer considered a risk, discharge him.
> 
> McLean's family had been lobbying for a change in the Criminal Code to prevent mentally ill killers from being released back into the community. His mother, Carol de Delley, has said that regardless of the verdict, she would do everything in her power to ensure Li is never released from secure custody.


----------



## old medic

This article is a day old, I believe it helps demonstrate Li's mental condition before he came to Canada. 

Man who brutally killed fellow bus passenger ’reclusive’ but ’decent’ person
2009-03-04
By THE CANADIAN PRESS
a copy located at :  http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/National/2009/03/04/8631001.html



> WINNIPEG — He will be forever remembered as the man who shocked the world by brutally beheading a sleeping fellow passenger aboard a Greyhound bus bound for Winnipeg last July.
> 
> But to those who knew Vince Li, he was a decent, respectful new Canadian with a strong work ethic whose mental illness ended up consuming him.
> 
> “He presents a paradox,” said Stanley Yaren, a Winnipeg psychiatrist who has interviewed Li more than 19 times since his arrest. “He’s a gentle, polite, decent person . . . Why does someone like that carry out such a brutal and horrendous act?”
> 
> That paradox is evident in reports entered into evidence at Li’s second-degree murder trial, which wrapped up Wednesday in Winnipeg .
> 
> Li was born in Dandong City in northeastern China on April 30, 1968, into a middle-class family. He arrived one month premature and was a sickly child until his teenage years.
> 
> 
> Li — the middle child in the family — was a late bloomer, according to his father. He didn’t start talking or walking until several years after his peers and was late starting school as well.
> 
> Despite his slow start, Li was a good student with high grades.
> 
> There was some unusual behaviour though.
> 
> Li wet his bed until he was 18 and was given medication. He “could never settle down” and was reclusive, studying at home or taking apart the family’s electronics.
> 
> “It was problematic in the household insofar as he was unsuccessful in returning them to their original state,” states Li’s psychiatric assessment.
> 
> Li went on to university where he obtained a bachelor of science degree. He didn’t have any girlfriends to speak of until he met his future wife Ana while working at a Beijing factory in 1992 shortly after his graduation. They were married in 1995 and Li started talking about moving to Canada.
> 
> The two immigrated in 2001, settling in Winnipeg.
> 
> “I chose Winnipeg, it’s in the middle of the Canada from a geographic position, and apartment rents are lower than all other Canadian cities,” Li told a psychiatrist.
> 
> He worked a series of menial jobs: “chopping meat” at McDonald’s; working at a warehouse; cleaning up around a church. He sometimes worked two jobs at a time, but never managed to hold down a job for very long.
> 
> Li didn’t drink much, never used drugs or never lashed out violently in any way.
> 
> But in 2004, his wife said he started “acting weird” and didn’t sleep or eat regularly.
> 
> “He cried a lot and told me he saw God and I thought he was just tired so I bought him sleeping pills from Shoppers Drug Mart but that didn’t work too well,” she told one of Li’s psychiatrist.
> 
> Li said he heard someone talking to him.
> 
> “I didn’t pay attention, just thought he was tired and I took some time off work and stayed with him,” his wife said. “He’s not a people-person, always had trouble dealing with people and knowing how to survive in society.”
> 
> Things got tense in 2005 and Li moved to Thompson, Man., but he told his wife he was in Toronto. He eventually made his way to the Ontario capital while she moved to Edmonton.
> 
> “I thought it would be easy to find a job in Toronto so I went there from Winnipeg,” Li told a psychiatrist. “I failed to find a job, then God’s voice told me to go back to Winnipeg. I’m not sure if God’s voice told me to walk back so I started walking on the highway; I threw out my luggage after God told me to do that.”
> 
> Li was picked up by the Ontario Provincial Police walking along Highway 427, “following the sun.” He was hospitalized briefly at William Osler Health Centre in Etobicoke, said to be “uncommunicative and in a catatonic state.” He was diagnosed with schizophrenia and was given medication but he left the hospital in denial.
> 
> “I didn’t think I had a problem,” Li said. “I didn’t think I was sick.”
> 
> Following instructions from God, Li started carrying a knife for “protection from evil forces.”
> 
> The couple decided to divorce in 2005 and returned to Beijing for the proceedings.
> 
> Li stayed with his parents for a month. He was irritable, picked fights and behaved strangely, subsisting on potatoes and selling his childhood books.
> 
> He returned to Canada and moved in with his ex-wife in Edmonton.
> 
> He returned in June 2008 to “find a wife,” but he baffled his family by leaving for Edmonton the following day when he was “unsuccessful.”
> 
> Li worked in Edmonton at a tire lube shop, at a Wal-Mart and he delivered newspapers.
> 
> But he continued acting strangely — disappearing for periods of time, laughing at inappropriate times and talking to himself. He thought about suicide, saying “lots of times God’s voice asked me to kill myself because I didn’t follow his word.”
> 
> But Li listened when the voice told him in July 2008 to “leave Ana, go find a new job, have an independent life, leave now.”
> 
> He bought a bus ticket to Winnipeg on God’s instruction and left a note for Ana.
> 
> “I’m gone. Don’t look for me. I wish you were happy.”


----------



## ModlrMike

This is a clear case of why the law has to be reviewed. In Britain, there is a verdict of guilty but insane. I firmly believe, and have done so for years, that Canada should have the same sort of verdict. It would certainly reduce the numbers of false claims of insanity, and perhaps not only would survivors have some form of closure, the truly insane would get help.


----------



## Blackadder1916

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> This is a clear case of why the law has to be reviewed. *In Britain, there is a verdict of guilty but insane*. I firmly believe, and have done so for years, that Canada should have the same sort of verdict. It would certainly reduce the numbers of false claims of insanity, and perhaps not only would survivors have some form of closure, the truly insane would get help.




I don't believe that such a verdict currently exists in British law, as is indicated in the following.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1999/en/ukpgaen_19990025_en_1


> Criminal Cases Review (Insanity) Act 1999
> 
> EXPLANATORY NOTES
> 
> SUMMARY
> 
> 3.     The Act enables the Criminal Cases Review Commission to refer to the Court of Appeal a verdict of "guilty but insane" under the Trial of Lunatics Act 1883 and gives the Court of Appeal powers to hear and dispose of an appeal on such a reference. *Although the verdict of guilty but insane was abolished in the 1960s* there may still be a small number of people who were the subject of such a verdict and would like to have it reconsidered by the Court of Appeal.


----------



## ModlrMike

That's too bad. Clearly, I've not kept up with the British judical changes. Notwithstanding, I still maintian that Canada would be well served by such a verdict. To my mind, guilt and insanity are not mutally exclusive. I wonder though, what argument would opponents to such a finding make?


----------



## PMedMoe

Picking at old wounds here......

*Hearing concerned with Vincent Li's comfort*
Article Link
By TOM BRODBECK, The Winnipeg Sun 

WINNIPEG -- Now that psycho-killer Vince Li has had his day in court before a sympathetic Criminal Code review board, perhaps we could now convene a hearing for the family of Tim McLean to scope out what needs they have and how the state can help them, too. 

Monday's hearing was all about Vince Li -- what he needs, how much better he's doing mentally, how he requested and received a Chinese Bible and what kind of facility he should be housed in. 

The review board was very concerned about Mr. Li's feelings and how he may be react if Tim McLean's family read their victim impact statements in front of him in a courtroom Monday. It might hurt his feelings, they thought. 

But psychiatrist Stanley Yaren, Li's shrink and advocate, told the board Monday he thought Li would be OK with it. That's super. 

No one asked the family how they would feel if they were robbed of the opportunity to make their victim impact statements in front of Li. 

After all, this was all about Mr. Li and making sure he's comfortable, not the family. The review board is concerned mostly with ensuring Li is in a good facility with a pleasant environment, where he can watch movies and play cards.

They're also concerned the 24/7 supervision of Li by two correctional officers may now be excessive. Better stop that. It might infringe on Mr. Li's dignity. 

So now that we've done all this, shouldn't we turn our attention to the family? They're getting virtually no help or support from the justice system, even though -- through no fault of their own -- they are now in a crisis situation. 

And compared with Li, who has round-the-clock support, free meals, medication and nice running shoes, the family is getting next to nothing. 

Carol deDelley, Tim McLean's mother, used to drive a school bus before her son was killed. 

She had to leave that job, at least for now, and is on long-term disability. She can't drive the school kids anymore because she doesn't have the confidence nor the level of concentration required to perform that very important job. 

Her long-term disability pays only half of what she was earning. Anybody going to help out Ms. deDelley, whose life has been turned upside down by this nightmare? 

There's lots of help for poor Mr. Li. But there's not much for the family, who are the real victims here. 

Perhaps we should have a hearing to determine what kind of support Tim McLean's family should get, including financial support and crisis intervention. 

The family was denied standing at Li's hearing. Maybe we could have one where the family gets standing and Li's lawyers don't so we could hear from them and get their input on the situation, including what should happen to Li. 

Our justice system is so hopelessly focused on the offender, it excludes almost entirely the needs of the victims and their families. 

It was repugnant watching Li's shrink and his lawyer fawning all over him Monday, making sure he was comfortable as family members sat there, shut out of the proceedings and forced to read censored versions of their victim impact statements. 

It was obscene. 

The least the justice system could do now is hold a hearing for the family to canvass their views and to identify their needs. 

I'm not holding my breath. 

For more, visit Brodbeck's blog Raise a Little Hell at winnipegsun.com.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Just another day in the *cough* Justice system.............not even remotely news to those who work it.


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Just another day in the *cough* Justicelegal system.............not even remotely news to those who work it.



Fixed it for you    That other word died a long time ago.


----------



## FastEddy

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Just another day in the *cough* Justice system.............not even remotely news to those who work it.




Bruce I just don't know, I just can't find the words to express my Disgust and to say your so right.

Cheers.


----------



## Lil_T

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Picking at old wounds here......
> 
> *Hearing concerned with Vincent Li's comfort*
> Article Link
> By TOM BRODBECK, The Winnipeg Sun
> 
> WINNIPEG -- Now that psycho-killer Vince Li has had his day in court before a sympathetic Criminal Code review board, perhaps we could now convene a hearing for the family of Tim McLean to scope out what needs they have and how the state can help them, too.
> 
> Monday's hearing was all about Vince Li -- what he needs, how much better he's doing mentally, how he requested and received a Chinese Bible and what kind of facility he should be housed in.
> 
> The review board was very concerned about Mr. Li's feelings and how he may be react if Tim McLean's family read their victim impact statements in front of him in a courtroom Monday. It might hurt his feelings, they thought.
> 
> But psychiatrist Stanley Yaren, Li's shrink and advocate, told the board Monday he thought Li would be OK with it. That's super.
> 
> No one asked the family how they would feel if they were robbed of the opportunity to make their victim impact statements in front of Li.
> 
> After all, this was all about Mr. Li and making sure he's comfortable, not the family. The review board is concerned mostly with ensuring Li is in a good facility with a pleasant environment, where he can watch movies and play cards.
> 
> They're also concerned the 24/7 supervision of Li by two correctional officers may now be excessive. Better stop that. It might infringe on Mr. Li's dignity.
> 
> So now that we've done all this, shouldn't we turn our attention to the family? They're getting virtually no help or support from the justice system, even though -- through no fault of their own -- they are now in a crisis situation.
> 
> And compared with Li, who has round-the-clock support, free meals, medication and nice running shoes, the family is getting next to nothing.
> 
> Carol deDelley, Tim McLean's mother, used to drive a school bus before her son was killed.
> 
> She had to leave that job, at least for now, and is on long-term disability. She can't drive the school kids anymore because she doesn't have the confidence nor the level of concentration required to perform that very important job.
> 
> Her long-term disability pays only half of what she was earning. Anybody going to help out Ms. deDelley, whose life has been turned upside down by this nightmare?
> 
> There's lots of help for poor Mr. Li. But there's not much for the family, who are the real victims here.
> 
> Perhaps we should have a hearing to determine what kind of support Tim McLean's family should get, including financial support and crisis intervention.
> 
> The family was denied standing at Li's hearing. Maybe we could have one where the family gets standing and Li's lawyers don't so we could hear from them and get their input on the situation, including what should happen to Li.
> 
> Our justice system is so hopelessly focused on the offender, it excludes almost entirely the needs of the victims and their families.
> 
> It was repugnant watching Li's shrink and his lawyer fawning all over him Monday, making sure he was comfortable as family members sat there, shut out of the proceedings and forced to read censored versions of their victim impact statements.
> 
> It was obscene.
> 
> The least the justice system could do now is hold a hearing for the family to canvass their views and to identify their needs.
> 
> I'm not holding my breath.
> 
> For more, visit Brodbeck's blog Raise a Little Hell at winnipegsun.com.



Three words - 

WHAT THE FUCK?


----------



## zipperhead_cop

Lil_T said:
			
		

> Three words -
> 
> WHAT THE FUCK?



The article is being facecious in many places.  The point is, now that whackjob has been deemed not criminally responsible, he will be treated as a person with a medical condition and efforts to make him better will be pursued.  This means all the mental trauma of people giving him mean looks and what not may be precluded, because it may be contrary to his getting better.  
Just in case you thought you might see victim rights get trampled in the event of him being found guilty, just watch how badly they get mauled now that he is a "patient".  Also, don't be surprised if somebody moves heaven and earth to get this guy a new identity and spirits him off to a new part of Canada once he is "better" so he can have a "fair chance at a normal life".  
Which is more than Tim got.


----------



## BernDawg

All I can think about is that salsa commercial from years ago... "get a rope"


----------



## Yrys

I prefer the following title :

Bus beheader to remain under heavy security

A provincial review board has ruled that Vince Li, the man who beheaded a fellow passenger aboard 
a Grehound bus, must remain under heavy security at a Manitoba psychiatric facility.

Li is currently under supervision at a secure ward of the Health Sciences Centre. But he will now be 
transferred to the high-risk ward at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre when room is available. The 
board's chairman, John Stefaniuk, said the decision was based on recommendations from Li's psychiatrist.
He told the Winnipeg Free Press that detailed reasons for the decision would be prepared in the next few 
months, but the information may not be made public. "That's still something we're going to be discussing," 
he said.

Last March, a judge found Li not criminally responsible for killing Tim McLean as the bus travelled near 
Portage La Prairie, Man. Li was remanded to a secure psychiatric facility. The board had to decide whether 
Li should remain in an institution, be given a conditional release or an absolute discharge.

McLean's mother, Carol de Delley, had said she did not want to see Li released. "I'm certain that they will 
hold him," de Delley told Canada AM on Monday. "I believe today all they're going to do is determine 
where they're going to hold him."

Twenty-two-year-old McLean had been asleep in the seat beside Li prior to the brutal attack, which sent 
passengers running from the bus. Justice John Scurfield said in his ruling that while the murder was indeed 
"appalling," Li "did not appreciate the act he committed was morally wrong. He believed he was acting in 
self defence and that he had been commanded by God to do so."

Both the Crown and the defence agreed that Li is schizophrenic and was suffering from a psychotic episode 
when he killed the young man. Because he was declared not criminally responsible for the murder, Li will 
not have a criminal record. However, he must submit his DNA into a registry in the event that he is one 
day released and suspected of another crime.

_With files from The Canadian Press_


----------



## mariomike

Tim McLean's mother has requested the bus be taken out of service:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5iC6UGjlBwIfrM4dbOYcJXIKPiVrw


----------



## gcclarke

mariomike said:
			
		

> Tim McLean's mother has requested the bus be taken out of service:
> http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5iC6UGjlBwIfrM4dbOYcJXIKPiVrw



Random people expect a company to abandon an asset valued over a hundred thousand dollars because of random event that happened on said asset. 

I'm sorry, but the fact that this is getting press is honestly just stupid. If someone gets murdered in a house, do the relatives of the victim expect the house to be burned down so that no one is reminded of the crime? No. That would be stupid. Should the rules change when the asset in question is owned by a corporation rather than an individual? No.

Not to mention the fact that, from the perspective of the family, the only way they'd know if the bus is still on the road is if they ask. It's not like they're going to take the bus one day and notice that their son's spinal fluid is still splattered on the window. That stuff got cleaned up, and rather well I imagine. Take 5 buses, one of them being the one on which the murder took place, and guess what, the family wouldn't be able to tell which one was the crime scene, barring the use of unique identifiers like license plate, VIN, or some type of company ID number.

This is honestly just the family asking someone else to pay a great deal of money for *little to no actual benefit* to themselves.


----------



## mariomike

A Greyhound spokeswoman said that although the company will not retire the bus, they did retire its number.


----------



## PMedMoe

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but the fact that this is getting press is honestly just stupid. If someone gets murdered in a house, do the relatives of the victim expect the house to be burned down so that no one is reminded of the crime? No. That would be stupid.



Didn't they demolish the house of Bernardo and Holmolka? 

Actually, gcclarke, I agree with you.  It was no different after 9/11 when they cut scenes of the Twin Towers out of every movie, TV show, etc, etc.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Retire Li, not the bus..........


----------



## Eye In The Sky

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Random people expect a company to abandon an asset valued over a hundred thousand dollars because of random event that happened on said asset.
> 
> I'm sorry, but the fact that this is getting press is honestly just stupid. If someone gets murdered in a house, do the relatives of the victim expect the house to be burned down so that no one is reminded of the crime? No. That would be stupid. Should the rules change when the asset in question is owned by a corporation rather than an individual? No.
> 
> Not to mention the fact that, from the perspective of the family, the only way they'd know if the bus is still on the road is if they ask. It's not like they're going to take the bus one day and notice that their son's spinal fluid is still splattered on the window. That stuff got cleaned up, and rather well I imagine. Take 5 buses, one of them being the one on which the murder took place, and guess what, the family wouldn't be able to tell which one was the crime scene, barring the use of unique identifiers like license plate, VIN, or some type of company ID number.
> 
> This is honestly just the family asking someone else to pay a great deal of money for *little to no actual benefit* to themselves.



I am actually surprised at your lack of compassion for them in this post, and "spinal fluid splattered..." comment was just tasteless.

Maybe, logically, it doesn't make sense to you.  I hardly think the family is "logically thinking" about this, as I know I certainly wouldn't be if it had of been my daughter who was murdered on the bus.

Maybe some compassion for the family would be nice.  It is a bus, it can be replaced.

Their son, on the other hand, can not...


----------



## the 48th regulator

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Didn't they demolish the house of Bernardo and Holmolka?
> 
> Actually, gcclarke, I agree with you.  It was no different after 9/11 when they cut scenes of the Twin Towers out of every movie, TV show, etc, etc.



That was because the house was owned by Bernardo.

Greyhound owns the bus, and I doubt that they would be will to destroy the bus, considering the amount it would cost to purchase a new one.

Unfortunately, that is the corporate life.  If we went and destroyed every structure a murder was committed, well, we would all be living in a barren waste land, wouldn't you agree?

dileas

tess


----------



## PMedMoe

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, that is the corporate life.  If we went and destroyed every structure a murder was committed, well, we would all be living in a barren waste land, wouldn't you agree?



Of course I agree.  I was just pointing out that the destruction of a building associated with murder(s) had been done before.


----------



## gcclarke

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I am actually surprised at your lack of compassion for them in this post, and "spinal fluid splattered..." comment was just tasteless.
> 
> Maybe, logically, it doesn't make sense to you.  I hardly think the family is "logically thinking" about this, as I know I certainly wouldn't be if it had of been my daughter who was murdered on the bus.
> 
> Maybe some compassion for the family would be nice.  It is a bus, it can be replaced.
> 
> Their son, on the other hand, can not...



I appreciate that they've been through an ordeal, and that they're not thinking logically. However, that doesn't, in my mind, justify making outrageous demands. I mean, what if this had happened on a plane instead? Would they still be demanding that the plane be put out of service? Or perhaps a cruise ship? Or a mall?

Is it merely because a bus is acceptably "cheap" to the company and their shareholders that these demands are acceptable? It is a bus and it can be replaced, but there is no real reason to do so. It's been thoroughly cleaned up. 

Grayhound has taken enough of a hit to their business over this whole affair. To expect them to stop using a perfectly good bus is just too much.


----------



## mariomike

gcclarke said:
			
		

> Grayhound has taken enough of a hit to their business over this whole affair.



The hits keep on coming. Greyhound was sensitive enough to remove their "bus rage" ads. However, the family is reported to have a lawsuit against Greyhound.
Also, they are ( reportedly ) suing the RCMP: "caused irreparable damage and injury thereby allowing (the killer) to defile the body of the deceased."
http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=631e9712-7eb2-4d6f-a99d-47b9d712dc9f


----------



## the 48th regulator

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Maybe some compassion for the family would be nice.  It is a bus, it can be replaced.
> 
> Their son, on the other hand, can not...



Start up a charitable drive to buy the bus, and have it destroyed.  Show your compassion to another unfortunate victim, Greyhound.

dileas

tess


----------



## Eye In The Sky

gcclarke said:
			
		

> I appreciate that they've been through an ordeal, and that they're not thinking logically. However, that doesn't, in my mind, justify making outrageous demands. I mean, what if this had happened on a plane instead? Would they still be demanding that the plane be put out of service? Or perhaps a cruise ship? Or a mall?
> 
> Is it merely because a bus is acceptably "cheap" to the company and their shareholders that these demands are acceptable? It is a bus and it can be replaced, but there is no real reason to do so. It's been thoroughly cleaned up.
> 
> Grayhound has taken enough of a hit to their business over this whole affair. To expect them to stop using a perfectly good bus is just too much.



Hmmm.  I don't know.  I can see your point, but when I put my "if I were the father" hat on, I can see theirs, too.

In light of the post by MarioMike re: "we are going to sue everyone", I think my support for their stance has changed somewhat.  Sort of went from a single shot to a canister round there IMO.

Having said that, if the family felt "justice was served" in our legal system, maybe they wouldn't be motivated to sue everyone.

My end state?  I feel horrible for the family and hope they find some peace in the future.  

I feel less horrible for the bus company.


----------



## mariomike

"Ground passes suggested for bus beheader:
WINNIPEG — Justice officials are opposing a recommendation that Greyhound killer Vincent Li be allowed daily ground passes at the Selkirk Mental Health Centre.":
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2010/05/31/14203706.html


----------



## old medic

Security upgrades complete, Li to walk
By Winnipeg Sun
Last Updated: December 3, 2010 9:43pm
http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/manitoba/2010/12/03/16424516.html


> The security upgrades required for Vince Li to take escorted walks around the Selkirk Mental Health Centre have now been completed.
> 
> Li, who is schizophrenic, has been living in the Selkirk facility’s locked forensic ward since March 2009, after he was found not criminally responsible for the brutal slaying of Tim McLean, whom he stabbed and partly cannibalized aboard a Greyhound bus west of Portage la Prairie in July 2008.
> 
> A spokesman for Health Minister Theresa Oswald said Friday that the upgrades were completed “as of this week.” He would not say when Li’s walks will begin or whether they already have, noting he’s not at liberty to publicly discuss “individual patient treatment plans.”
> 
> The upgrades were necessary to accommodate a Criminal Code Review Board ruling that Li be granted escorted walks around the unfenced grounds and to other areas of the complex like the gym, chapel and library. The plans included the hiring of two more full-time security officers who will be dedicated to escorting Li and other forensic mental health patients on walks.
> 
> The walks will only occur at times when staffing levels are at their peak and the risk will be assessed before each walk is granted. RCMP were also to be notified when Li’s walks were to begin.


----------



## mariomike

16 Feb, 2011
"On Wednesday, two other passengers on the bus, Debra Tucker of Port Colborne, Ont., and Kayli Shaw of London, Ont., each filed separate claims in Manitoba's Court of Queen's Bench. Both women are seeking $3 million for a range of alleged ailments, including severe anxiety, nervous shock, and severe depression.

They claim they are now being medicated due to the incident, are unable to work and suffered loss of income.

Shaw said she can't work or study, and her marriage and other personal relationships have failed.

"I have a hard time hearing ambulance sounds, police cars, I freak out," Shaw told CBC News. "I have to literally go through so much anxiety just to go out and do things." :
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/greyhound-rcmp-sued-bus-beheading-20110216-124628-005.html


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Vincent Li, the man who beheaded a traveller sitting next to him on a Greyhound bus in 2008, will be allowed more time outdoors at his Manitoba mental health facility, a review board has ruled.
> 
> Last year, Li was granted the right to take escorted walks around the Selkirk Mental Health Centre after he responded to treatment.
> 
> They were limited to two hours; he'll now enjoy up to 12 hours a day on the unfenced grounds.
> 
> As well, Li's supervision will be reduced to one minder from three, the the Criminal Review Board of Manitoba decided Thursday in Winnipeg.
> 
> However, Li won't be allowed off the grounds of the facility, the board ruled ....


Source:  CBC.ca


----------



## OldSolduer

Vince Li should never set foot in society again. The rest of his natural life should be spent under close supervision in a secure facility.

To those of you who say I'm being to harsh, you take care of him when he's freed, if he ever is.


----------



## Infanteer

To those of you who say Jim is being harsh, you can sit next to him on the bus he catches back to Edmonton when they let him go.


----------



## OldSolduer

Infanteer said:
			
		

> To those of you who say Jim is being harsh, you can sit next to him on the bus he catches back to Edmonton when they let him go.



Next to Vince Li.......not me.....I don't take buses much anymore.


----------



## Infanteer

No, I meant sit next to you on the bus.  Then there can be be discourse as to why you're so harsh.


----------



## OldSolduer

Infanteer said:
			
		

> No, I meant sit next to you on the bus.  Then there can be be discourse as to why you're so harsh.



OK I guess I could sit on the bus for a bit. I do like a lively debate...


----------



## helpup

Infanteer said:
			
		

> To those of you who say Jim is being harsh, you can sit next to him on the bus he catches back to Edmonton when they let him go.



I thought you meant Vince Li as well.  That to me would be my first response to anyone who feels that Vince really should be given more freedom.  I will grudgingly accept he was not in his right mind while the act was committed.  But there needs to be punishment metted out for crimes in general.  And as close to a 100% guarantee as possible that if a person is being given more freedom after having committed a heinous crime will not commit it again.


----------



## OldSolduer

Not a punishment, per se, because he was deemed mentally unfit.

This is a precaution, pure and simple. The doctors who say he will not be a hazard should be compelled to have him board at their homes for a year after release.


----------



## krustyrl

Good call Jim, maybe he (the Sr) might suck back slightly.?


----------



## OldSolduer

krustyrl said:
			
		

> Good call Jim, maybe he (the Sr) might suck back slightly.?



Not likely, but I am going to follow my own advice and shut up about being an "expert"...oh wait, I'm a correctional officer as well....there fore I am......


----------



## krustyrl

"Sr "meant to read "Dr" as in Mr Li 's examining doctor.  My typo .   :facepalm:


----------



## Infanteer

helpup said:
			
		

> I thought you meant Vince Li as well.



It was; the subsequent post was a bit of humour for Jim at the expense of my poor grammar.


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Greyhound bus killer Vince Li is now allowed to go on short, escorted outings from the Manitoba mental hospital where he has been committed.
> 
> Li, who has schizophrenia, was sent to the Selkirk Mental Health Centre after being found not criminally responsible of beheading Tim McLean, 22, a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus near Portage La Prairie, Man., in July 2008.
> 
> The Manitoba Review Board ruled on Thursday that Li can leave the hospital grounds for supervised excursions into the city of Selkirk, Man., starting at 30 minutes in duration.
> 
> Those excursions can be increased incrementally to a "maximum of full days," according to the board's written ruling.
> 
> He must be escorted at all times by one hospital staff member and one security or peace officer.
> 
> "The treatment team is of the opinion that his condition is stable and it would be appropriate and safe for him to leave the locked ward," the ruling states in part ....


CBC.ca, 17 May 12


----------



## TN2IC

Wow, blows my mind. Hasn't this member been convicted? Look at the mental hospital down the road, and all the issues they have with this practice. Not really a great idea in my opinion. Once a member has offended, they are likely to repeat. Hopfully at least they won't let him on a bus. Or sing wheels on the bus.


----------



## my72jeep

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Not a punishment, per se, because he was deemed mentally unfit.
> 
> This is a precaution, pure and simple. The doctors who say he will not be a hazard should be compelled to have him board at their homes for a year after release.


 :ditto: :goodpost: :trainwreck:


----------



## jollyjacktar

I listened to Talk Radio on this subject this past weekend.  Everyone I heard call in, including parents of children with the same illness and persons with years of experience with people like Li were unanimous in their opinion he will without question offend again and thus cannot be trusted amongst the public.  They said all it takes is for him to not keep up with his medications and he'll be a cocked revolver waving at the crowd.


----------



## mariomike

Update, for anyone still interested in the case.

May 8, 2015

WINNIPEG — The man who stabbed to death and beheaded a fellow passenger on a Greyhound Bus in Manitoba has been approved to move from a mental hospital to a group home in Winnipeg.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1988522/vince-li-approved-to-live-at-group-home-in-winnipeg/?utm_source=Article&utm_medium=MostPopular&utm_campaign=2014


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

Yeah. We know.  :threat:


----------



## The Bread Guy

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> The doctors who say he will not be a hazard should be compelled to have him board at their homes for a year after release.


Sorta like this?

The latest ...


> A man who beheaded a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba has won the right to eventually live on his own.
> 
> A Criminal Code Review Board has approved a plan that would allow Vince Li to at some point move out of the group home where he now lives.
> 
> (...)
> 
> The request for more freedom came from Baker's medical team, which said he has been a model patient and understands the need to continue to take anti-psychotic medication.
> 
> Even living on his own, he would be subject to several conditions that would include daily monitoring, regular check-ins with mental health professionals and random drug tests.
> 
> (...)
> 
> Supporters say Baker and other people deemed not criminally responsible for their actions deserve the right to rehabilitation and freedom. But opponents, including some politicians and McLean's mother, have opposed the board granting Baker increasing freedom.
> 
> "The Crown has the ability to view Will Baker ... as a designated high-risk not criminally responsible person, but they have chosen not to," Conservative MP James Bezan wrote in a statement this week.
> 
> "They have blatantly ignored the rights of the victim’s family, and compromised the public safety of our community in (their) decision."


----------

