# Legal Officer Recruiting [Merged]



## rceme_rat

I am looking for comments re service in JAG - preferably from a serving JAG offr, reg or res.  Would like to discuss your practice - types of files, etc.  Am considering JAG as an alternative to corporate practice.  Not as interested in general service knowledge as 12+ years service covers that - albeit its getting to be a bit dated now.

Thanks.


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## brneil

I am two days from my enrollment date into the CF as a JAG legal officer. I will be starting BOTC in Septemebr and wonder if there is anyone connected with this post board who has any info on the first few years as a legal officer.

I have gleaned quite a bit of info so far but first hand info is always useful.

Thanks


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## Jungle

Legal officers have nothing to do with CSS. Actually, they have nothing to do with Combat. This should be moved to the recruiting section.


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## brneil

While I agree that JAG officers are not physically involved in combat they are specifically deployed with troops that are and their legal opinions concerning ROE and LOAC are incorporated into the commanding officers deliberations when planning.


I should also note that I was not sure where this thread should be posted given the limited specialty position that it deals with.

Obviously I respect your experience and thank you for your response.  If you know of a better section than this or the recruiting section please let me know.


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## OLD SCHOOL

In my experience the legal officers come in handy in sticky situations.

Wasn‘t me, go ahead tell them.
I was in the rack dreaming sweet thoughts when that occured.
Great guys.


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## beatrix34

I am new to this site, so I hope I am doing this right.  I have a question, there is a service mbr that was charged and was send to detention barracks for 30 days he has a girlfriend and a child. The unit even though paperwork was submitted for comonlaw statues will not recognise the status because they are not living together so now this person is in jail and no one has contacted the girlfriend.  When calling the chain of command there is no response when contacting the Jag Office the answer is sorry we cant talk to you because we are advising the chain of command, the advise given was call the Defence Council Services they will help.  When calling the Defence Council Services they are told that sorry we don't have the mandate to deal with this. 
My question is where can a person go to get legal answers as far as some sort of payment for the child etc if I am correct when someone goes to jail pay automatically stop's so how is this young lady supposed to support herself and there son and no one will speak to her because they are not considered common law. 
I would think that DND has somewhat of an obligation to make sure that the child at least is somewhat taken care off.   If anyone could give me a bit of advice on this that would be great.


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## Simpleton

beatrix34 said:
			
		

> I would think that DND has somewhat of an obligation to make sure that the child at least is somewhat taken care off.



Pardon my ignorance, but why would DND have an obligation?    ???


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## beatrix34

what I meant by obligation was, when a mbr goes to jail if I understand correctly his pay is cut off but if there is a spouse then dnd makes sure there is enough funds so the family does not suffer any further hardship as far as bills etc.  I am not saying dnd has an obligation to support the child what I am saying is I would think dnd has an obligation that the child is taking care of financialy as they would if there is a spouse.


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## mdh

Hi Beatrix,

I think you may be better off checking with the CF's family support resources which usually have a website link to the area where the individual family is based.  If I'm not mistaken the CF has set up hotlines to deal with these types of situations. Access the base website and if there is no direct link call the base operator and ask about family support.  They should be able to answer all your questions.


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## Edward Campbell

Many, many years ago commanding officers and superior commanders had the *authority* to decide that a percentage of the pay of a soldier sentenced to detention should not be forfeit but, rather, should be paid to his wife to cover rent, food etc.

The primary purpose of sending most soldiers to detention is to correct a failure in *our* training system.   When a soldier breaks the rules we, the leadership, must share the blame because *our* training was, obviously, insufficient â â€œ we failed to explain adequately why it was vital to work within the rules.

Thus, when we send a soldier to detention for retraining it is because we intend that he should return to duty properly trained and motivated; we don't help that process if, during the six weeks or so that he was in the digger, his wife got booted out of the house and his two kids ended up in the hands of the Children's Aid Society.


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## mdh

http://www.mfrcedmonton.com/english.html 

try this link as a starting point, mdh


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## beatrix34

I tryed the mfrc and they where of no help to me, the advice I got was call legal aid.  I am amazed that no one within dnd has been trying to help in this situation it seems the only thing they can say is well there not commonlaw.


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## mdh

It's unfortunate that family services isn't helping - that's what they are supposed to be doing. My only other suggestion is the Military Ombudsman office, mdh


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## beach_bum

The whole situation is very unfortunate, but realistically, it doesn't have anything to do with the military.  The military is not responsible for the member making child support payments.  Until there is a court order, the military will not garnish his wages.


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## QORvanweert

sorry for sidetracking this post by any means, but I have always wondered what JAG's pay rate's start out at? I asked my recruiter way back when and he couldn't answer...


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## CaptPilk

This link should help you regarding Legal Officer Pay Rates :

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pay/engraph/204.218_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=28&alt=N

G!


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## Uberman

I'm applying for Legal Officer and am advised that the DEO selection board for this occupation sits on May 1, 2005, following which, those selected applicants will be further interviewed by JAG; presumably offers are extended to the applicants after a successful interview. If this is incorrect I would appreciate being advised. I am further advised that all of my documents are in and I am merit listed, however I have not done the PT test yet nor have my medicals been sent to Borden. In a previous post I read that everything had to be in to be considered at the selection board. The recruiting centre I'm attending has never had a legal officer applicant and as such cannot provide a whole lot of answers to specific questions.

I understand that the numbers being sought for the BOTC in September of this year are 20 (see http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26025.0.html ); inclusive of 6 unfilled positions from last year. I have scoured the forum in search of any and all information dealing with JAG however, it's slim pickings. The specific questions I have are: How many people typically apply for this position? How come over 25% of the yearly target is a roll over from last year? Is 20 a lot of positions,it seems so incomparison to other trades, with the exception of infantry and pilots? How many positions were being offered last year?   I understand the SLT needs to be BBB to pass; is this typical of all SLT. What training is involved following SLT and I assume there is no "battle school" for JAG so is it OJT? Why so many positions available for JAG Officers? Is the attrition rate high? I have probably a few other questions together with other questions that might arise out of any answers I get however, thats another post.

I spent three years with the 3 Batt PPCLI from 88-91, a big hello to any with that unit.


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## Uberman

The first post was placed under, "The Recruiting Process" - this board may be more relevant.

I'm applying for Legal Officer and am advised that the DEO selection board for this occupation sits on May 1, 2005, following which, those selected applicants will be further interviewed by JAG; presumably offers are extended to the applicants after a successful interview. If this is incorrect I would appreciate being advised. I am further advised that all of my documents are in and I am merit listed, however I have not done the PT test yet nor have my medicals been sent to Borden. In a previous post I read that everything had to be in to be considered at the selection board. The recruiting centre I'm attending has never had a legal officer applicant and as such cannot provide a whole lot of answers to specific questions.

I understand that the numbers being sought for the BOTC in September of this year are 20 (see http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26025.0.html ); inclusive of 6 unfilled positions from last year. I have scoured the forum in search of any and all information dealing with JAG however, it's slim pickings. The specific questions I have are: How many people typically apply for this position? How come over 25% of the yearly target is a roll over from last year? Is 20 a lot of positions,it seems so incomparison to other trades, with the exception of infantry and pilots? How many positions were being offered last year?  I understand the SLT needs to be BBB to pass; is this typical of all SLT. What training is involved following SLT and I assume there is no "battle school" for JAG so is it OJT? Why so many positions available for JAG Officers? Is the attrition rate high? I have probably a few other questions together with other questions that might arise out of any answers I get however, thats another post.

I spent three years with the 3 Batt PPCLI from 88-91, a big hello to any with that unit.


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## kincanucks

Your file is sent to Borden and is reviewed by the Legal Branch and they are interested in you then you are invited to Ottawa for a JAG interview and if they still like you then you get an offer.  Typically 40-50 will apply for 20 postions.  Usually lawyers with experience get chosen.

Normally the intake for Legal is low.

Check the following website it might answer some of your questions:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/office/default_e.asp

_I have not done the PT test yet nor have my medicals been sent to Borden._

So much for standardized processing.


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## Uberman

Thanks kincanucks, from what I've read on various posts, you are the resident guru of all things dealing with recruiting. Much appreciated. 

What does the carry over from last year mean - is it that X people did not pass their training and those spots are carried over to next year, or is it that they were never filled or perhaps a combination thereof.

I've been practising for approximately six years - would that make me a typical applicant?

I'm sure these questions may seem trite but the military is not like the "law firm down the road". When I entered the infantry, it was about 2 months from the day I applied I was shipped to Cornwalis to sit in front of the local deaf and blind barber; much more simple than this.  

Cheers, and thanks for any information or opinion you can provide.


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## kincanucks

There was no carry over from last year.

With that much experience you are not a typical appliicant.  The legal applicants I usually see have just graduated and the only experience they have is articling.


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## Toff

Hi,

Did a search already and there really isn't a response to this question.

If you wish to join as JAG lawyer, does one also choose branch of service, ie: Army/Air Force/Navy?  Is it considered a purple trade?  One would think that depending on the branch you serve in, the areas of law that you would deal with would be different.  Law of the sea being an example.

I guess, simply put, if you apply do you simply pick a branch?

Thanks in advance.


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## DogOfWar

Legal Officer in the military is a purple trade.


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## Toff

Thanks.

So, based on what I have read here about Purple Trades, I take it one just chooses which branch they wish to serve in?


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## mdh

> http://www.dnd.ca/jag/main_e.asp



Try this link - you must be a lawyer first before you apply to be a JAG officer.

cheers, mdh


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## smithwicks60

I applied to be a JAG lawyer and I had to choose a branch of service. You pick the branch you want to.


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## Brohan

Hello All, 

I am just finishing up my second year of law school and seriously considering joining the JAG (and possibly the regular forces) upon graduation. I have always wanted to be a member of the armed forces but never really seriously considered it until now. I am wondering if anyone can provide some insight into what the job of JAG entails? Will I get to go out into the field etc.? Is the JAG a respectable position within the armed forces? I have heard that individuals who enter armed forces after completing higher education aren't given much respect, probably deservedly so, as many grads tend to carry a sense of entitlement and possible arrogance (and apparently because they are automatically officers?). In any case, I would prefer to earn respect, rather than have it handed to me as a result of having a university education, so should I decide to simply join the regular forces, how would my education affect me? Any responses you guys could provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Brohan. 

Moderator: I apologize if this thread is in the wrong section but I couldn't find any thread that seemed to apply to this topic.


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## NavComm

some of your questions might be answered here http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/careers/default_e.asp


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## kincanucks

In six years of recruiting, I have never seen a newly graduated lawyer hired by the CF.  Not saying it never happened but without any experience in law you are pretty useless to the CF.  Good Luck.


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## Brohan

Thanks for the responses. I have read the website many times over and was hoping to get some firsthand experiences from others who have made a similar decision. I will have some legal work experience as a prosecutor from working during the summers with the government so hopefully that will help when the time comes to apply. Having said that, I am not even sure if I want to practice law within the CF as I think I might like to do something that doesnt' involve paper work and 12 hour days in an office. Anyway, thanks for the help. Brohan.


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## Zertz

I considered JAG once, bare in mind its not quite as exciting as the drama JAG . Don't necessarily set it aside though, although its quite a bit of work its important work, so do some reflection and do what you want to in the end.


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## ambex

I have a few questions about Canada's JAG.  Here is my situation.  Iam starting the long journey towards getting my BAR this fall so that I can practise law.  I have also always wanted to serve my country and was thinking that I might just try and join the JAG. That way I can do law while serving my country.

Here are my questions:  
-Does the tv show JAG accuratly describe what goes on normally? (Naturally they crank up the drama but the idea might be the same)
-Does anyone have a general idea of how promotions happen and timelines, along with the responsibilities that come with promotions?( I have done a search here and on the dnd website.)
-Do you get transfered alott?

If anyone has extra comments to add they are most welcome.

Also, what could I do in the reserves while going to get my bar?


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## Zertz

The TV Drama JAG is incredibly more dramatic, something along the lines of a Few Good Men, or mabye Bud's role in the JAG series with alot less drama is closer to what actually happens. Don't expect to be shooting terrorists, at all.


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## Trinity

Zertz said:
			
		

> The TV Drama JAG is incredibly more dramatic, something along the lines of a Few Good Men, or mabye Bud's role in the JAG series with alot less drama is closer to what actually happens. Don't expect to be shooting terrorists, at all.



What ever happened t*o staying in your lane Zertz.*

I've been in 13 years and I have only a vague idea of JAG from a few
courts martial that I've seen.

This is the 3rd thread in as many days where you've given an answer to which you
no absolutely nothing about.  If it doesn't pertain to your ACTUAL job... we allow
others, oh say in this case, a JAG to reply (or a recruiter) or someone who has
extensive knowledge of the CF legal system.


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## kincanucks

ambex here is a good site to visit for more information on the CF AJAG:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/office/default_e.asp

Asking questions like "does an American TV show in anyway resemble what CF lawyers do?" is really not a good way to endear yourself to this board.

Perhaps the 16 year old know-it-all should visit the site too.


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## ambex

Thanks for the link, I will go over the site again to see if I missed anything the fist few times.

Kincanucks I have scene you around these boards and I respect your opinion because you are damn knowledgable. 

So, since an American tv show (it is american, and that quote is wronge) depicting thier JAG is not a good place to look for ideas on Canada's JAG perhaps you could point out a realistic example?


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## Zertz

Trinity said:
			
		

> What ever happened t*o staying in your lane Zertz.*
> 
> I've been in 13 years and I have only a vague idea of JAG from a few
> courts martial that I've seen.
> 
> This is the 3rd thread in as many days where you've given an answer to which you
> no absolutely nothing about.  If it doesn't pertain to your ACTUAL job... we allow
> others, oh say in this case, a JAG to reply (or a recruiter) or someone who has
> extensive knowledge of the CF legal system.



Relaying the opinion of my practicing Family Lawyer who was for a long time a Reservist Clerk who looked into JAG as a career before deciding to do private practice. Thought my second hand knowledge may apply as a starting point to get answers going. I guess I'll refrain from posting that as well.

Edit: As a point of reference should I only reply with first hand (that is, things I know myself) and differ to a greater knowledge at all times? I'd like to avoid making an arse of myself further, since I can tell I'm starting to look like... several bad words. Could someone drop me a PM to clarify my forum policy questions? (I have some others.)


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## Big Foot

ambex said:
			
		

> Thanks for the link, I will go over the site again to see if I missed anything the fist few times.
> 
> Kincanucks I have scene you around these boards and I respect your opinion because you are damn knowledgable.
> 
> So, since an American tv show (it is american, and that quote is wronge) depicting thier JAG is not a good place to look for ideas on Canada's JAG perhaps you could point out a realistic example?


Ambex, not trying to deter you here but... if you want to become a JAG, I strongly recommend working on your spelling and grammar. Being any type of officer in the CF, I'd imagine especially for JAGs, you must be proficient in written and verbal communications. That said, this is only a suggestion, but a suggestion which I feel will get people to take you more seriously.


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## kincanucks

A realistic example?  Go to a courtroom and watch the prosecutor and the defence and try to put that into a military context?  Another helpful hint:  Lawyers without experience rarely get to be lawyers in the CF.


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## Zertz

Quick question, I've looked over the JAG website and I'm curious how realistic it would be to want to work in an advisory position (as an Operational Lawyer) for the majority of one's career, that is staying away from the administrative side of JAG?


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## kincanucks

Zertz said:
			
		

> Quick question, I've looked over the JAG website and I'm curious how realistic it would be to want to work in an advisory position (as an Operational Lawyer) for the majority of one's career, that is staying away from the administrative side of JAG?



Well not being a CF lawyer myself but having seen and known CF Lawyers enough I would say that is highly unlikely.


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## ambex

Big Foot you are absolutely correct.  I went back and checked over my post; hopefully I did not miss anything this time.  

"Thanks for the link; I will go over the site again to see if I missed anything the fist few times.

Kincanucks I have scene you around these boards and I respect your opinion because you are damn knowledgeable. 

So, since an American TV show (it is American, and that quote is wrong) depicting their JAG is not a good place to look for ideas on Canada's JAG perhaps you could point out a realistic example?"

Good idea Kincanucks, I will look into that tomorrow morning.

I will check back tomorrow after work to see if anyone who is or was directly involved in the Canadian JAG has responded.  Either way I will be dropping by the recruiting center later this week, if they can’t help me no one can.


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## sober_ruski

Zertz said:
			
		

> The TV Drama JAG is incredibly more dramatic, something along the lines of a Few Good Men, or mabye Bud's role in the JAG series with alot less drama is closer to what actually happens. Don't expect to be shooting terrorists, at all.


Are you saying real JAG officers do not get to see Catherine Bell look alike topless? :'(


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## Trinity

Zertz said:
			
		

> Relaying the opinion of my practicing Family Lawyer who was for a long time a Reservist Clerk who looked into JAG as a career before deciding to do private practice. Thought my second hand knowledge may apply as a starting point to get answers going. I guess I'll refrain from posting that as well.



Well, my second cousin twice removed once knew a guy who wanted to be a JAG who had the opinion it was not like the TV show.  : :


You can comment on things if its in your field of expertise.  i.e. your current military trade, or you've experienced it
first hand (most like on more than one occasion) or are directly related to the situation.  Giving your opinion in some
threads is acceptable i.e. should the flag be raised or lowered, but in most threads opinions or unrelated or uncorroborated
conjecture is not welcome.


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## Zertz

Cheers Trinity, I've had a chat with Michael O'Leary and he's cleared things up quite a bit for me as well.


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## Centurian1985

Jungle said:
			
		

> Legal officers have nothing to do with CSS. Actually, they have nothing to do with Combat. This should be moved to the recruiting section.



Jungle, 

Ive been telling people that for years but they seem to like the TV version of 'a day in the life of a JAG' much better...


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## chris_log

Got a question about military lawyers, I checked the Recruiting site and it says that Legal O's are people who are already lawyers and have ben accepted to the bar in their respective province and who then join the military. However, I've heard talk that Legal O's used to be able to get their law degree via an ROTP-type program. 

Are there any avenues for CF members to attend law school (full or part time) at Her Majesty's expense, or is it a 'do it yourself then come back and see us' kind of deal?


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## Blackadder1916

Piper said:
			
		

> Are there any avenues for CF members to attend law school (full or part time) at Her Majesty's expense, or is it a 'do it yourself then come back and see us' kind of deal?



http://www.cfsuo.forces.gc.ca/adm/pdp-pps/ooto-occo-eng.asp


> Specialist Officer Plans
> The purpose of the training plans is to provide specialist officer training for selected officers of the Regular Force to prepare them to transfer to and employment in a specialist officer classification. The “M” Plans are coordinated by DMCA, under the governance of CFAO 9-62.
> 
> Eligibility. Criteria to be eligible for selection into a military training plan are specified in CFAO 9-62 as modified in the competition message.
> 
> What's open? There are five (5) “M” Plans
> 
> Military Dental Training Plan (MDTP);
> *Military Legal Training Plan (MLTP);*
> Military Medical Training Pland (MMTP);
> Military Pharmacy Training Plan (MPTP); and
> Military Chaplain Training Plan (MCTP).
> 
> Deadline. Competition normally opens in September with applications due in Jan for academic start later that fall. DMCA will convene selection board following the competition closing date.


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## chris_log

Outstanding, thanks for the link.


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## chris_log

Are there any Legal O's on the board (doubtful I know, but I had to ask).


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## dapaterson

I believe all the one we had were eventually banned...


Keep in mind that any time in training would incur obligatory service; as well, if you were a Major to take MLTP you'd revert in rank to Capt; I know one person who did that without thinking though the financial impact.

Your neighbourhood PSO can give more information on MLTP, either today or in the future.


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## Snakedoc

dapaterson said:
			
		

> I believe all the one we had were eventually banned...
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that any time in training would incur obligatory service; as well, if you were a Major to take MLTP you'd revert in rank to Capt; I know one person who did that without thinking though the financial impact.
> 
> Your neighbourhood PSO can give more information on MLTP, either today or in the future.



Out of curiousity, if you were already a Capt in a different MOC when you switched over to one of these specialist training programs (MLTP or MMTP), would promotion to Maj come quicker than for other legal (or medical) officers that join off the street as Captains?


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## George Wallace

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Out of curiousity, if you were already a Capt in a different MOC when you switched over to one of these specialist training programs (MLTP or MMTP), would promotion to Maj come quicker than for other legal (or medical) officers that join off the street as Captains?



No.


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## jp86

I met with a PSO at CFRC Toronto a couple of weeks ago while getting my reserve application in (for a different trade).  I'm a law student and mentioned that I was interested in going RegF as a legal officer later.  He didn't mention any kind of special training plan; what he did say was that they had a lot more applicants than spots for that position right now, so they're very selective.  He also said that Legal Officer recruitment has ups and downs, so at some point they'll be struggling to fill positions again.


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## Seonaidh

Is there any available arrangement an applicant can make with the Forces such as join and go to Law School?

Or does one have to go to Law School on their own and then apply as a DEO after graduation?

Thanks for the input.


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## jp86

I don't think such an option exists - sadly for me, a law student joining the PRes.

The CFRC told me that JAG is usually looking for experienced lawyers - not people right out of law school - so it wouldn't make much sense for them to subsidize legal education.


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## reds

Hmmm, legal careers in the military could be interesting! I had a question to post but I had it answered elsewhere. Cheers.


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## aesop081

reds said:
			
		

> I don't see anything related to legal roles for NCMs. Shoot.



Th only trade "legal" related for NCMs is court reporter and one must be an RMS Clerk to remuster to it after meeting certain eligibility criteria.


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## potter

Hi everyone,

I'm currently a law student and am seriously considering a career with the CF as a Legal Officer - it seems to be a very challenging, dynamic, and ultimately  fulfilling way to practice law and serve my country compared to other opportunities in the private sector. I've done some reading up on the DEO process and am aware that before I can apply to the CF, I already have to be called to the bar (which won't happen until I graduate and complete my articling in a couple years from now). 

I'm looking for any advice on what a potential DEO candidate, and especially legal DEO candidate if there are any JAG officers out there, can do to prepare themselves for applying while they're still in law school (aside from of course, staying in good physical shape). Also, from what I've read, it appears the legal officer DEO recruitment process is a little bit different than some other trades; it implies there is a set of interviews/test processes, but it's unclear on how exactly it is different. If anyone has been through the process or has information about it that they'd be willing to share, I'm all ears. Thanks very much for your time.


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## PMedMoe

I'm afraid I can't help you much, but here's a link to the JAG website:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/jag/careers-carrieres/index-eng.asp

Also, from the recruiting website:



> Legal Officers are commissioned members of the Legal Branch of the Canadian Forces, which is commanded by the Judge Advocate General (JAG). The JAG acts as legal adviser to the Governor General, the Minister of National Defence, the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Forces in matters relating to military law, and has the superintendence of the administration of military justice in the Canadian Forces.
> 
> The Office of the JAG provides the military justice system with qualified personnel (military judges, prosecution and defence counsel). It also supplies Legal Officers to CF establishments across Canada and deployed missions overseas to deliver legal services in the fields of operational law, international law, training, military personnel law, and military justice.
> 
> As a Legal Officer, your primary duty will be to practise law in the military milieu, which may include any of the following tasks:
> # Providing advice on international and domestic law to the commander of a deployed force
> # Providing general legal advice and services to the commanding officer of a Canadian Forces Base
> # Providing advice on operational legal issues at National Defence Headquarters
> # Representing clients at Court Martial and appearing before the Court Martial Appeal Court
> # Representing the interests of the Canadian Forces and the Department of National Defence as:
> # - A member of a Canadian delegation negotiating international treaties
> # - A member of the military liaison staff at an allied headquarters
> # Delivering training on military law and military justice
> 
> You may also be posted to the Office of the Department of National Defence / Canadian Forces Legal Adviser, where you would work in fields such as legislative drafting, pensions, claims and administrative law. Later in your career, you could be appointed to the military bench, to serve in the independent Office of the Chief Military Judge.



As far as the application process, I have no idea why it would be different.  CFAT, medical, interview.....


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## Frank_B

I'm starting law school this year, and am interested in a military law career. I was told by my brother (a reservist) that I may be able to article with the Canadian Forces, although after doing some research it appears not. I was wondering if anyone could give a definitive answer.

Thanks.


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## ModlrMike

You'll have to ask recruiting for the definitive answer, of course.

My recollection is that you need to have been admitted to the bar to be recruited as a legal officer. There may be a programme similar to MOTP that applies to Legal Officer aspirants, but I don't recall ever seeing it. If there is, this might be a better option than completing law school on your own dime.


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## hobgoblin

I have a family member in the army, and he's advised me that it's a good way to go about my education and career.
I'm 19 years old, heading into a Bachelor of Arts program this fall. I will likely be majoring in political science, and my dream goal is to go to law school and become a lawyer. I get great grades and have a lot of motivation, so it is a definite possibility for me. However, there doesn't seem to be a lot of information on the internet about recruitment in regards to that sort of plan. 

This appears to be a bit of a snag though

"The Canadian Forces subsidize university education leading to the following officer jobs:
Aerospace Control Officer
Aerospace Engineering Officer
Air Combat Systems Officer
Armour Officer
Artillery Officer
Communications and Electronics Engineering (Air) Officer
Construction Engineering Officer
Dental Officer
Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Officer
Engineer Officer
Health Care Administration Officer
Infantry Officer
Intelligence Officer
Logistics Officer
Marine Systems Engineering Officer
Maritime Surface and Sub-Surface Officer
Medical Officer
Military Police Officer
Naval Combat Systems Engineering Officer
Nursing Officer
Personnel Selection Officer
Pharmacy Officer
Physiotherapy Officer
Pilot
Public Affairs Officer
Signals Officer
Social Work Officer"

Does this mean that I couldn't be a legal officer through the army? At least, not until I have completely gone through a civilian education? Because I can't see them allowing me to join as an undergraduate, and then leave for law school for 3 years. I am under the impression that I would be expected to go into service as soon as I complete my first degree.

Can anybody clear this up for me before I get too invested in the idea of applying?


----------



## Occam

Stacked said:
			
		

> You do something called LOTP (Legal Officer Training Program) Which I believe you need a Bachelors, and have proof you've been accepted to a school for Law.  Once you have those two things you go to the CFRC.
> 
> That's about all I know...  Somebody else can give you the finer details if needed.



I've never heard of that program.

To the best of my knowledge (and according to the recruiting website), you already have to be a lawyer admitted to the Bar in a Canadian province in order to get into the CF as a Legal Officer.

There is the MLTP (Military Legal Training Plan) for already-serving officers who qualify, but that's not an entrance program for the CF.


----------



## The Thirst Mutilator

Hi guys, I'm just looking into things I can do with my JD degree once I finish it and came across this http://www.forces.ca/en/job/legalofficer-64#video-0. It looks like a really exciting career path, but I have a few questions about it before I get my hopes up.

-I have never served in the military before, and that recruitment site says that legal officers start as captains. That's a pretty high rank, are they just going to let me be a captain right up the bat if I'm coming with a JD, or would I have to work my way up, doing something else first before I can be promoted to legal officer.
-It says you have to pass certain physical requirements. I'm about 5'5.5", just under 5'6" and have flat feet, for which I wear orthotics. However, I have an extensive martial arts background, can run for miles without getting tired, and can easily do sets 100+ push ups and 30+ chin ups. Do you think they would let the height and feet slide if I get a letter from my MMA coach testifying that I'm perfectly capable of completing basic training? I mean, this IS a non-combat position after all, so it shouldn't matter THAT much, one would think.
-What's supply and demand like for legal officers? Are they looking for people, or are they turning down hundreds of applicants for that position?


----------



## canada94

The Thirst Mutilator said:
			
		

> Hi guys, I'm just looking into things I can do with my JD degree once I finish it and came across this http://www.forces.ca/en/job/legalofficer-64#video-0. It looks like a really exciting career path, but I have a few questions about it before I get my hopes up.
> 
> -I have never served in the military before, and that recruitment site says that legal officers start as captains. That's a pretty high rank, are they just going to let me be a captain right up the bat if I'm coming with a JD, or would I have to work my way up, doing something else first before I can be promoted to legal officer.
> -It says you have to pass certain physical requirements. I'm about 5'5.5", just under 5'6" and have flat feet, for which I wear orthotics. However, I have an extensive martial arts background, can run for miles without getting tired, and can easily do sets 100+ push ups and 30+ chin ups. Do you think they would let the height and feet slide if I get a letter from my MMA coach testifying that I'm perfectly capable of completing basic training? I mean, this IS a non-combat position after all, so it shouldn't matter THAT much, one would think.
> -What's supply and demand like for legal officers? Are they looking for people, or are they turning down hundreds of applicants for that position?



Hi there!

For all the rank question's I am no help. However for the height and flat feet problem I can help! Your height does not matter first off, and second I have flat feet myself. Although I am not in the Forces I was selected during a Reserve recruiting process by a regiment and my flat feet did not come up as a problem whatsoever. I'm also sure you would not be the first person ever to complete BMQ/BMOQ with flat feet! You say you can run miles and miles anyways.. I also can't answer the need for Legal Officers, however it never hurts to throw in an application and try your best. 

Good luck!

Mike


----------



## PMedMoe

The Thirst Mutilator said:
			
		

> if I get a letter from my MMA coach testifying that I'm perfectly capable of completing basic training?



Is your MMA coach a doctor?  If not, then no.



			
				The Thirst Mutilator said:
			
		

> I mean, this IS a non-combat position after all, so it shouldn't matter THAT much, one would think.



Not so, we have had JAGs (legal officers) deploy.  Besides, we have this thing called universality of service......

I would suggest a search of the site.


----------



## Blackadder1916

The Thirst Mutilator said:
			
		

> . . . . . . . recruitment site says that legal officers start as captains. That's a pretty high rank, are they just going to let me be a captain right up the bat if I'm coming with a JD  . . . . . . .



While the responsibility that comes with the rank of Captain may be significant (depending on the occupation of the holder, the position he is filling, the trust placed in him by his commander . . . ), it is not a "pretty high rank".  It is actually the working rank for most officers - unless one has royally screwed up or is dumber than dirt, just about everyone holding the Queen's Commission will be promoted to Captain after 3-4 years.  Generally, all the occupations that require a "professional degree" and a license to practice start as Captains. (e.g. physicians, dentists, pharmacists, social workers, physiotherapists, lawyers . . . the only "licensed" occupation that doesn't start as Captain is nurse) 



> . . . . .
> -What's supply and demand like for legal officers? Are they looking for people, or are they turning down hundreds of applicants for that position?



I can't speak specifically as to this as I am not a lawyer and retired form the CF years ago, however I am acquainted with a number of legal officers.  From what I gather from them, there are usually openings for qualified lawyers, but not many.  When they talk about a "qualified lawyer", they mean someone who is already called to the bar and preferably has either some (significant?) legal or military experience.


----------



## medicineman

I do have to ask something...JD degree?  That the same as an Bachelor of Law?  Never heard a law degree described that way that's all.

As for the medical, unless you suffer from dwarfism, your height isn't a big deal.  You might need a letter from your family physician as to why you're using orthotics, but flat feet aren't a big deal as long as it's not the result of fallen arches.  Your MMA coach doesn't count as far as attesting to your fitness to serve.

MM


----------



## BKells

I'm an NCM in the reserves, have been in for 8 years, served in Kandahar on Roto 6, been PMC for 2 years, etc.

I've read about the MLTP program for officers already serving to attend law school and become a legal O. Does this program extend to someone in my situation? If I go to the CFRC with my acceptance letter to a Canadian law school, what sort of options are available?

Cheers.


----------



## 211RadOp

Try it out and see what happens.  The worst they can do is say no.


----------



## ModlrMike

I believe the plan applies to the Regular Force only. I could be wrong.


----------



## dapaterson

Yes, MLTP is an in-service selection program for Regular Force officers.


----------



## oldboy12

so I'm a Canadian lawyer in his mid 30s. I would like to know what my chances are. I did not do particularly well in law school, and did not work for big law firms. what are my chances?


----------



## ModlrMike

If you've passed the bar and completed your articles then you should be good to go. Visit a recruiting center and find out. There is at least one JAG who lurks here, so I'll leave the specifics to him.


----------



## The_Falcon

Legal Officer is one of the few occupations out there were the selection is ultimately made by a panel of experience Legal Officers, CFRC just handles the admin duties.  Unless thing have changed since Nov, part of this panel selection is a face to face interview in front of this panel.  I am getting the feeling from your post that you are seeking the CF as an option of last resort (if I am wrong so be it).  If that is the case I suggest you move on.  Beyond the basic eligibility criteria for this occupation, no one here nor at your local CFRC will be able to tell you what your chances are, as the decision is made by third parties.


----------



## Scott

Not to be a dink or anything, but who cares what your chances are? You either apply or you do not. 

I really do not get these threads. I can understand the ones where dude is a triple amputee who just smoked a fat bowl and has epilepsy - there's real stuff to discuss there, but this? :dunno:


----------



## The_Falcon

Scott said:
			
		

> Not to be a dink or anything, but who cares what your chances are? You either apply or you do not.



This 8)  I am constantly amazed and a little saddened by how timid people are, and basically afraid of failure or rejection, that they ask anonymous stranger for advice on whether they are suitable or what their chances are for xyz.  You want to know if you are suitable for something whether it be burger flipper or door kicker, ultimately you need to man/woman up and just friggen apply, if things work out great.  If not, oh well move on, it's that simple.

Example, I wanted to go for Close Protection.  You know what I did, I workout out like a man possessed, did the PT and applied.  First time, my PT scores weren't high enough, although I did pass.  So I double my PT efforts got a higher score, and went to selection, and managed to last 4 days before I mentally broke.  But you know what I got my answer on whether I was suitable or not.

My current job with ISAF, I applied on a whim, not even remotely thinking I was going to get the job, in fact several months past before I got an interview invite, which I ultimately passed, and a few month later, here I am.  

The take away is, you wanna know, then stop pontificating and just bloody apply (and not just you OP, but the general you for all the navel gazers on this forum), you will get your answer.


----------



## GAP

yeah, but when they fail even the CFAT, once, then twice.....I notice a tendency to blame anything but themselves...


----------



## The_Falcon

GAP said:
			
		

> yeah, but when they fail even the CFAT, once, then twice.....I notice a tendency to blame anything but themselves...



Of course growing up and never having to experience failure and loss (due to half baked hippy logic that infects our education system) means a person never has to take responsibility.   Thankfully I had a few old curmugedly politically incorrect teachers who didn't give a damn about that hippy crap, and had no issues telling you your shortcomings, in fairly blunt language.


----------



## FJAG

As a former legal officer, I can tell you that your law school academic performance will be assessed alongside your work experience. You will need to meet all medical and fitness requirements for the Forces. There will be a board of serving legal officers who will interview all candidates and evaluate them against each other.

Short answer: if there are sufficient candidates who rank better than you and who accept their offers then you won't get in. If you are the better candidate you will get an offer.

Bottom line is that no one can tell you what your chances are without knowing your qualifications and all those of the other candidates.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

There ya' have it.
Locked.


----------



## gcclarke

medicineman said:
			
		

> I do have to ask something...JD degree?  That the same as an Bachelor of Law?  Never heard a law degree described that way that's all.



I know I'm bumping a bit of an old thread, but J.D. = Juris Doctor, which is the type of basic degree granted by most law schools in the country. It's a "newer" term used for what was formerly called the Bachelor of Laws (abbreviated LL.B. from whatever the plural of Legum Baccalaureus Latin is), which was technically considered a bachelor's degree, despite the fact that every law school in the country didn't treat it like a bachelor's degree, and when they changed the name to J.D., it necessitated no change in their actual curriculum. The J.D. is treated as a graduate degree, as I'm sure you could guess based on the presence of "Doctor" in the name!

U of T was the first school to make the switch back in 2001, but most other schools followed suit since.


----------



## cupper

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Generally, all the occupations that require a "professional degree" and a license to practice start as Captains. (e.g. physicians, dentists, pharmacists, social workers, physiotherapists, lawyers . . . the only "licensed" occupation that doesn't start as Captain is nurse)



You can include engineer to the list of licensed professional occupations that does not start out as a Captain.


----------



## dapaterson

cupper said:
			
		

> You can include engineer to the list of licensed professional occupations that does not start out as a Captain.



Engineers in the military are not required to be licensed engineers.  Nurses in the military are required to be licensed nurses.

Apples and oranges.


----------



## cupper

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Engineers in the military are not required to be licensed engineers.  Nurses in the military are required to be licensed nurses.
> 
> Apples and oranges.



True, and that is why the consideration doesn't extend to engineers. My intent was to clarify for those who may have thought otherwise.

And further to that, typically the 4 year requirement as an EIT means that when an engineer is finally qualified as a P.Eng, they should be close to promotion to Captain anyway.


----------



## medicineman

Wow - took someone almost 2 years to answer my question...thanks GC  ;D.  I knew the LL.B was the base degree for law, wasn't aware they'd changed the designation. 

MM


----------



## FJAG

I'm absolutely gob-smacked. I've had my LL.B. now for thirty years and never once knew that we'd gone to a J.D. here in Canada. Obviously I'm not keeping up with my Alumni news.

Anyway, to answer your questions.

The only way you'll know as to whether or not you meet the medical/physical requirements is to apply through the recruiting process and get examined/tested. Notwithstanding that the legal branch is not a combat arm, all legal officer candidates on enrolment must meet the same baseline CF medical standards as all other recruits/officer candidates. If accepted you'll also need to complete basic military training the same as all other recruits. 

Legal officers are direct entry officers with professional standing and are therefore enrolled in the rank of captain. Promotion to the rank of major is not automatic but pretty close to it and should happen after three of four years service. It had been four, gone to three and they were discussing bringing it back to four when I got out so I can't tell you exactly. Consider the rank of captain as apprentice legal officers learning their craft while the majors are the fully trained journeymen.

Please note that it is not sufficient to have your J.D. In order to be enrolled you need that and you need to be called to the bar and be a member in good standing with one of the provincial law societies.

Demand for legal officers fluctuates. The branch has undergone a period of expansion over the last decade or so but that has slowed down somewhat. The requirement for legal services never seems to shrink but in many ways openings are tied to the economy. When the economy is bad lawyers tend to flock to the public sector and when its hot they tend to go to private practice. There are quite a few legal officers now so there is a steady turnover.

Do note that selection is competitive, both for regular and reserve force legal officer positions.  All candidates are interviewed by a panel of legal officers and only the most qualified are accepted for the positions available. There are routinely many more candidates than positions and almost all successful candidates will have had several years of practising law under their belts. Being bilingual is also a distinct advantage.

Best of luck.


----------



## dapaterson

It's lots of fun to correct a lawyer.

Lawyers are commissioned as second lieutenants, with simultaneous promotion to the rank of Captain; they are not enrolled at the rank of Captain.


This is, in part, due to 140.2(a) of the NDA - it ensures that they can be demoted to the rank of 2Lt at court-martial, should the need arise...


----------



## The_Falcon

Apparently Macleans wrote about this..almost 3 years ago. lol

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/09/16/the-letter-of-the-law/



> When law students convene at the University of Calgary this month to slog over case studies and legal precedents, they will be working toward a different degree than their predecessors: a juris doctor (J.D.) rather than the traditional bachelor of laws (LL.B) degree.
> 
> On Sept. 1, Calgary joined an ever-lengthening list of Canadian law schools to stamp J.D. on their degrees instead of those other letters. But the thinking behind the switch seems as much about politics as it is about education.
> 
> 
> The J.D. designation is common in the United States, where students must complete an undergraduate degree before attending law school. Meanwhile, the LL.B. designation has reigned supreme in Canada and other Commonwealth countries such as Britain. The difference is that in Canada—like in the States—most students have already completed an undergrad degree before entering law school; across the pond, students can attend law school straight out of high school.
> 
> Proponents say that the J.D. signals to foreign—read American—employers that a Canadian law grad isn’t just a “snot-nosed kid barely five years removed from high school,” as Toronto litigator David Cheif­etz put it on the Canadian law website Slaw. The J.D. is now seen as “more prestigious than the LL.B.,” explains Simon Fodden, professor emeritus at Osgoode Hall law school at York University, which offers the J.D.
> 
> Indeed, the University of Toronto became the first law school to make the switch in 2001 because it was concerned that the LL.B. “understated the level of education our students had,” dean Mayo Moran told Lawyers Weekly last year. Since then, many Canadian law schools have held plebiscites and debates, and switched to the J.D., including the universities of British Columbia, Western Ontario and Queen’s.
> 
> But critics say the change amounts to “juris envy,” as Vancouver lawyer Tony Wilson quipped in a Canadian Bar Association article. More serious criticisms abound: that this marks the “Americanization” of Canadian law.


----------



## ARMY_101

I'm also looking at being a CF Legal Officer long-term. Either you enrol DEO with your LL.B./JD and having already been admitted to the bar, or you join the Reg F for two years in another trade and apply for the Military Legal Officer Training Plan.  In the latter they will send you to law school.


----------



## FJAG

dapaterson said:
			
		

> It's lots of fun to correct a lawyer.
> 
> Lawyers are commissioned as second lieutenants, with simultaneous promotion to the rank of Captain; they are not enrolled at the rank of Captain.
> 
> 
> This is, in part, due to 140.2(a) of the NDA - it ensures that they can be demoted to the rank of 2Lt at court-martial, should the need arise...



 :facepalm: - absolutely correct. Mea Culpa in how I expressed that.

On two other points:

I always thought the JD was a bit funny; making it look like you had a doctorate when you really didn't. I remember when dealing with lawyers from Germany that even the most run-of-the-mill ones referred to themselves as "Herr Doktor this and that". Struck me as pretentious at the time. Note that the next level of degree from a JD is still an LL.M. The real doctorate in law comes after one has achieved an LL.M and takes a PhD in Law program at select universities in Canada.

Re the Military Legal Training Plan. Its a thing you should never count on because its rarely open for business, especially now that money is tight. Why should the government pay some captain for four years of law school and articles when there is absolutely no shortage of fully trained and qualified candidates knocking on the door? The rationale was that you balance the branch with some people who have prior service in other parts of the CF and therefore bring something extra with them. In times of financial stress, that becomes a luxury. The program is frequently not open and again, when it is, it's extremely competitive.

 :cheers:


----------



## dapaterson

I have a friend whose husband went through the program.  He didn't read the fine details in advance, though.

Hence, first paycheque after he entered the program was for a Capt, not a Maj.  He either (a) didn't pay attention to the policy on rank protection on VOT or (b) forgot to mention it to his wife.


----------



## gcclarke

FJAG said:
			
		

> Re the Military Legal Training Plan. Its a thing you should never count on because its rarely open for business, especially now that money is tight. Why should the government pay some captain for four years of law school and articles when there is absolutely no shortage of fully trained and qualified candidates knocking on the door? The rationale was that you balance the branch with some people who have prior service in other parts of the CF and therefore bring something extra with them. In times of financial stress, that becomes a luxury. The program is frequently not open and again, when it is, it's extremely competitive.
> 
> :cheers:



Extremely competetive is perhaps an understatement. The information I recieved from when I queried the point of contact listed in the message was that on a typical year, the MLTP will get 70 - 80 applicants, of which 2 will usually be accepted into the program. 

So... methinks I need to ace my LSAT, amongst other things.


----------



## Scuba_Dave

If an NCM were to remuster to Legal Officer. What steps would need to be taken? Please skip the obvious ones, like "Go see the BPSO"  I know that most law schools only accept those with degrees into the program to begin with, with exception to the very limited (lets just call it impossible) "Mature student" acceptances. And RMC doesn't have any law based courses anymore. So if you were building towards becoming a Legal Officer from within as an NCM, what courses would you recommend? Basket weaving 101 at UVic just isn't my thing either lol.


----------



## dapaterson

Find a law school or two, and ask what they look for in their admissions process.  Use that to guide your studies.


----------



## FJAG

Scuba_Dave said:
			
		

> If an NCM were to remuster to Legal Officer. What steps would need to be taken? Please skip the obvious ones, like "Go see the BPSO"  I know that most law schools only accept those with degrees into the program to begin with, with exception to the very limited (lets just call it impossible) "Mature student" acceptances. And RMC doesn't have any law based courses anymore. So if you were building towards becoming a Legal Officer from within as an NCM, what courses would you recommend? Basket weaving 101 at UVic just isn't my thing either lol.



There is no "remustering" to legal officer. For serving officers of any non legal classification there is the opportunity to apply for reclassification through selection for the Military Legal Training Plan. There are very few positions for this and the competition is fierce.

For the more normal process, the minimum requirement (other than the usual physical, medical etc requirements for all CF officer candidates) is that the individual will have been called to the bar of one of the provinces of Canada. This requires completion of law school and the relevant bar admission program for the province.

To be selected for law school, one generally does not require a degree but you do require two years of undergraduate university studies and completion of the Law School Aptitude Test. Application to law school is also very competitive therefore the higher your Grade Point Average from your university courses and the higher your LSAT score, the more likely it is you will be admitted. The actual GPA or LSAT scores vary by school and year depending on the quality of the candidates applying in any given year as most schools have a fixed number of positions available and simply take the ones off the top. (Most schools also have some positions set aside for mature or other special category students but standards are still high and the positions are competitive)

Bar admission programs vary by province. It includes taking specific bar admission courses (on line or in person) and approximately ten months of working as an articling student with a practising lawyer. All in all, the program is six years (two years undergraduate, three years law school, one year articles)

When the legal branch selects new legal officers from qualified civilian lawyers, the process is also competitive. Those who have military experience and who have experience as a full-time lawyer and who are bilingual will have an advantage.

You should note that there are no military para legals. The branch does employ some civil service paralegals and there are a number of Chief Warrant Officers who provide para legal-like services within the CF.

Hope that answers your questions.

 :cheers:


----------



## dapaterson

FJAG said:
			
		

> All in all, the program is sex years (two years undergraduate, three years law school, one year articles)



From what I know of law students and the demands on their time, I wouldn't call their years of study "sex years" 


More seriously, I thought I saw that Ontario was trying new approaches with articling due to an oversupply of students and an undersupply of spots for articling.


----------



## legalrec

They sure are... of course by that I mean they've organized some committees and a task force.  There is some talk of letting students shadow for free at sole practitioners.  I think they're doing some other "experimental" programs.  Not sure if any of them will take.  It's still easier to get an articling job in Canada than it is for the equivalent in England.

I've been advised, in addition to being called to the bar and having experience, your experience should be in constitutional or international law (for JAG), but FJAG would know better than I would.


----------



## FJAG

LegalApp said:
			
		

> They sure are... of course by that I mean they've organized some committees and a task force.  There is some talk of letting students shadow for free at sole practitioners.  I think they're doing some other "experimental" programs.  Not sure if any of them will take.  It's still easier to get an articling job in Canada than it is for the equivalent in England.
> 
> I've been advised, in addition to being called to the bar and having experience, your experience should be in constitutional or international law (for JAG), but FJAG would know better than I would.



SIX years -- six  :facepalm:

Articles programs and courses are under constant improvement and development by the various law societies. Even in my day (that's in the mid 80s in Manitoba) it took a lot of effort to find positions for everyone. You have to note that the top half of the class rarely had a problem but the lower down the individual was in the pecking order the more difficult it was to find a principal - there's some cheap labour that comes out of hiring an articling student, but at the same time, if you do it right, having an articling student is hard work for the lawyer.

Honestly, I don't think we ever really looked for experience in international or constitutional law--its nice to have but not a necessity--and all too often young lawyers in this field are more academic in their approach to the law than practical. 

Criminal law experience, however, was always a bonus. What one wanted most of all was a candidate who had a bit of time in as a lawyer but was still young so that they would have a full career in the branch. The experience we looked for was that in handling clients, organizing and managing cases and appearing in court to argue them, together with legal research and writing skills. The necessary military law (administrative, operational and mil justice processes, including the appropriate international and constitutional aspects) are specific to the CF and need to be taught within the branch in any event. 

 :cheers:


----------



## legalrec

FJAG said:
			
		

> .... if you do it right, having an articling student is hard work for the lawyer.



100% accurate.  This is why it is so difficult for small boutique firms to take on students.  If there are only a couple of lawyers and they spend half their time teaching, they won't make any money.  Large Bay St. firms have the luxury of having departments dedicated to it.  I think we could use a change in Canada, but articling, if done right is an invaluable experience for a young lawyer.



			
				FJAG said:
			
		

> Honestly, I don't think we ever really looked for experience in international or constitutional law--its nice to have but not a necessity--and all too often young lawyers in this field are more academic in their approach to the law than practical....



Rather relieved to read this.   I thought I might be sunk because I'm in civil litigation.


----------



## FJAG

LegalApp said:
			
		

> . . .  I thought I might be sunk because I'm in civil litigation.



That was my own preferred area of practice before I retired. 

It's a bit difficult looking at backgrounds for the regular side of the branch because most had fairly short civilian careers before joining the branch. Since Reserve Force Leg Os stay in their civilian careers throughout, its a bit easier with them. I'd say amongst reservists we had about 30-35% criminal law background, maybe another 20% litigators, another 20% solicitors with the rest a grab bag of this and that. I'd be guessing but I would think that the Reg F background percentages were probably not that much different.

I think it's safe to say that when the Leg O selection board does their interviews, it's the quality of the individual that is the overriding factor. Experience as a lawyer, regardless of the field, adds to that quality. 

 :cheers:


----------



## Cloud Cover

There were several (I can think of at least 3] MLTP fellows when/where I went to law school. All were of Capt. rank, and 2 were Inf and 1 Armour background, all bilingual, and very bright minded guys. I'm sure they are doing well with whatever they are up to now, it was more than a decade ago.  

I also had one outstanding individual [also Infantry, RNR then RCR] who went through MLTP, ended up in another federal government department, subsequently resigned and he ended up reporting to me as specialist in-house counsel at my former employer. Super sharp fellow, great sense of humour [we put white painted rocks around his office] and an outstanding mentor to the employees.  Tough bugger too, always up and ready for a good scrap. 

IIRC, MLTP graduates struggle with finding an appropriate articling position>>>>there are so many conflict of interest checks with the large firms that offer articling positions. The federal Court usually takes a few on, sometimes the Federal Crown might add one or two. 

In my current role I hope to offer an articling position to a mature student, hopefully MLTP candidate but the decision is not mine alone to make. 

Cheers


----------



## FJAG

whiskey601 said:
			
		

> IIRC, MLTP graduates struggle with finding an appropriate articling position>>>>there are so many conflict of interest checks with the large firms that offer articling positions. The federal Court usually takes a few on, sometimes the Federal Crown might add one or two.
> 
> In my current role I hope to offer an articling position to a mature student, hopefully MLTP candidate but the decision is not mine alone to make.



Most of the better law firms are hiring articling student with the aim that they become associate lawyers in their firms after their call to the bar. It's a kind of loss leader situation where your unprofitable investment in the student will stay with you as a profit generating asset later.

With an MLTP you have a 100% guarantee that the student will NOT be staying with the firm and as a result you lose your investment. That's somewhat offset by the fact that the MLTP is on government salary but its not just the pay loss, its the effort put into the student that's lost.

 :cheers:


----------



## legaleye

Hi there,

I've been a long time lurker, reading about processing samples and the steps. I know the basics in that a candidate goes through the recruiting centre process (medical, CFAT, interview, security clearance) and is then merit listed and then waits to be selected for the desired trade based on competitiveness.

My question is whether this process is somewhat different for legal officers. Although I know the basics are no different, I also know that to become a legal officer, the candidate must pass a selection board composed of three JAG colonels. The JAG conducts its own interview and selects candidates based on the results of that interview.

My questions: 

1) Is passing this interview a necessary step before being merit listed? (I suspect it is).
2) Therefore, does that mean that, once selected by the JAG colonels, the candidate has already been "selected" and selection at the recruiting centre level is just a formality? In other words, is there any possibility that once being selected by the colonels that the candidate would NOT be selected by the recruiting centre process? (I would guess no, and base that guess on the assumption that the JAG colonels are only selecting as many candidates as positions they have open? I would think they are not selecting more than that?)

Thanks very much for your time!


----------



## FJAG

Regular or reserve and are you already a serving member? 

There are some differences.

 :cheers:


----------



## legaleye

Applying for regular force.

Thanks for the help!


----------



## FJAG

Presently a member or not?

Have you been called to the bar?

 :cheers:


----------



## legaleye

Not currently in the armed forces and I have been called to the bar. 

Thanks so much!


----------



## FJAG

Okay then.

Your application is as a direct entry officer.

You apply through the recruiting centre which then sequences all the processes including an appearance before the JAG selection board.

Consider the process as the recruiting office doing all the staff work required to vet the candidate for being eligible for selection as a legal officer (medical etc. fitness, education standards etc) while the JAG selection board making the final determination as to which of the vetted candidates are the most suitable for employment with the branch. The board looks at various factors including experience that you have gained as a practising lawyer, second language abilities, community involvement, understanding of current (especially national and military events), university grades, additional legal qualifications, your basic ability to handle yourself during and interview, etc.

Successful candidates will receive an offer for enrolment subject to completion of the basic military officers' course and second language training (if required). If a candidate drops out or fails to pass, usually the highest ranked unsuccessful candidate will be given an offer and loaded on the next available basic officer training cycle.

Note that Basic Legal Officer and Intermediate Legal Officer training is done in-house by the OJAG and follows successful completion of basic officer and second language training.

I've been out of the branch since 2009 so I can't talk to the details of the process as it stands today, but generally your recruiting office should have the details. 

 :cheers:


----------



## Tweak25

So, how important is performance on the CFAT for this process then? - is it just useful for your placement on the merit list? - or can a poor performance drum you right out of contention? 

- signed, a lawyer who hasn't done math since undergrad


----------



## FJAG

Tweak25 said:
			
		

> So, how important is performance on the CFAT for this process then? - is it just useful for your placement on the merit list? - or can a poor performance drum you right out of contention?
> 
> - signed, a lawyer who hasn't done math since undergrad



No idea really. I went to the reserve side of the legal branch having been a regular and reserve force arty and infantry officer so no testing etc.; just the selection board interview. 

My guess is if you can get a high enough LSAT to get into law school and pass law school and the bar then the CFAT isn't a threat -- but then I don't work at the recruiting office.

I sat on selection boards for dozens of reserve force legal officers and never once saw any CFAT scores; the only documentation we had were resumes and in the odd case a transcript. The interview was the crucial element in the selection process because in large part we were interested in seeing what the 'whole person' was. Providing legal advice to higher ranking officers in the chain of command is at the core of being a legal officer. Because of this there is almost an art in selecting people who have not only the education and experience needed but the maturity and the poise to handle themselves under pressure.

 :cheers:

As to math - why would you do math when you can just hire an accountant.  ;D


----------



## Tweak25

Haha ... my thinking exactly. 

'preciate the reply. 

Thanks.


----------



## DAA

You will have to achieve the required standard on not only the CFAT but also the TSD.  I would strongly encourage you to study prior to writing the CFAT, less you become another casualty in the application process and there are many.

Not only have practicing Lawyers failed to achieve the CFAT requirements but so have Doctors!

FJAG is pretty much on the mark.  Testing, processing, short listing, JAG Interviews then offers.  The later being the MOST important aspect.


----------



## legaleye

Thanks to both of you, FJAG and DAA. 

I suppose I am still wondering whether, once you have passed the JAG interview, is there any possibility that you will not be made an offer?

(I am thinking that since the JAG interview is the key piece, that this is ultimately the selection point, even if you don't receive formal paperwork from the JAG directly?)


----------



## FJAG

legaleye said:
			
		

> Thanks to both of you, FJAG and DAA.
> 
> I suppose I am still wondering whether, once you have passed the JAG interview, is there any possibility that you will not be made an offer?
> 
> (I am thinking that since the JAG interview is the key piece, that this is ultimately the selection point, even if you don't receive formal paperwork from the JAG directly?)



Don't think of the interview as "pass/fail" but as "ranked". As an example there may be twenty applicants for three position. Only the top three candidates will be given offers even though another ten or fifteen might be good or acceptable choices as well. The fourth and fifth ranked candidates would only be given an offer if one or two of the first three either decide against accepting the offer or fail out of the basic officer training course or become medically ineligible etc.

DJAG/COS does maintain the ranked list for a period of time in the event of training failures etc or in the event that more positions become available but at some point the list is allowed to lapse and a new call for applicants is held. Unfortunately I do not know how long that period is these days. Perhaps DAA does.

 :cheers:


----------



## legaleye

I see, thanks very much.


----------



## atonz

I am considering a career with the CF as a legal officer. I spoke with a recruiter and learned that there is a 7 year commitment. The recruiter could not really provide more information other than "people are not forced to stay" etc. Can someone enlighten me on these commitments? I had been operating under the incorrect assumption that if my university was not subsidized, there would be no commitment.

My concern is being in the military 1-2 years and finding it is not for me. Thanks!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

We don't sign 'contracts' per sea, we sign Terms of Service (TOS).  Each trade/classification has set years of TOS for their initial engagement, with subsequent offers 1 year before their current TOS ends.  Your first TOS is usually a VIE (Variable Initial Engagement), followed by an offer for a CE (Continuing Engagement) and a IE25 (Intermediate Engagement - 25 years) in which you pick which one you sign.  

In a very general sense without any refs to refer to for specificity/accuracy, members can request release prior to the end of a TOS but it may come with a 'minimum time to release from request submitted' with the common timeline being 6 months from request to release.

Certain trades/classficiations, such as Legal Officer, may have more specific timelines.  But it sounds like the VIE for Legal Officer is 7 years.  I am not sure if you are able to request a shorter VIE, but I've never heard of a VIE of 1 - 2 years.  In the past, there were 3 years BEs (Basic Engagements) but that has now been changed to the VIEs described above.


----------



## Michael OLeary

When you enrol in the Canadian Forces (for nearly all enrolment options, including any you're probably looking at), there is an obligation of a number of years service, after which you may be offered an opportunity to remain in for a full career. When recruiting centres have line-ups and merit lists are long, the system isn't under pressure to hold people to those full terms, because there's always someone else ready to take your place, and voluntary releases can happen. If, however, recruiting gets challenging with fewer applicants (which can happen for a variety of reasons) and recruiting struggles to keep pace with attrition, then the CAF can (and in the past has) held people to those terms of service.


----------



## PuckChaser

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Certain trades/classficiations, such as Legal Officer, may have more specific timelines.  But it sounds like the VIE for Legal Officer is 7 years.  I am not sure if you are able to request a shorter VIE, but I've never heard of a VIE of 1 - 2 years.  In the past, there were 3 years BEs (Basic Engagements) but that has now been changed to the VIEs described above.



It would likely be 1-2 years before he's qualified to work anywhere, so VIE of 7 likely reflects the reality of 5 years of actual trade work, with 2 years in training.


----------



## mariomike

atonz said:
			
		

> Can someone enlighten me on these commitments?



RELEASE OF OFFICERS AND NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/ch-15.page

DAOD 5049-1, Obligatory Service
http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5049-1.page

See also,

Commitment
https://www.google.ca/search?q=canadian+forces+obligation&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=aSScVvu4BsSC8QeL6on4DA&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+commitment

Terms of Service
https://www.google.ca/search?q=canadian+forces+obligation&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=aSScVvu4BsSC8QeL6on4DA&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+%22terms+of+service%22

Variable Initial Engagement ( VIE )
https://www.google.ca/search?q=canadian+forces+obligation&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-CA:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&gfe_rd=cr&ei=aSScVvu4BsSC8QeL6on4DA&gws_rd=ssl#q=site:army.ca+VIE


----------



## Blackadder1916

atonz said:
			
		

> I am considering a career with the CF as a legal officer. I spoke with a recruiter and learned that there is a 7 year commitment. The recruiter could not really provide more information other than "people are not forced to stay" etc. Can someone enlighten me on these commitments? I had been operating under the incorrect assumption that if my university was not subsidized, there would be no commitment.
> 
> My concern is being in the military 1-2 years and finding it is not for me. Thanks!



Someone more current on release policies and having access to the actual CFAOs (the DND site is not available to the public) may be able to confirm if this section of CFAO 15-2 is still valid (_DAOD 5049-1 linked by mariomike lists it as a current refererence_) .



> RELEASE -ENROLMENT ON OR AFTER 1 JAN 82
> 
> 39.    A member, except those serving under ROTP, MOTP, DOTP, or DITP, who
> enrols, re-enrols or transfers into the Regular Force on or after 1 Jan 82,
> and requests voluntary release, will not normally have that request
> approved, except during a period of recruit training as specified in
> paragraph 36 of this annex, for a period of three years commencing from the
> date of enrolment unless compassionate circumstances exist.  Subject to the
> requirement to complete the initial three year period of service, a member
> must submit that request at least six months in advance of the preferred
> date of release or the commencement of terminal leave whichever is earlier.
> Subject to deferral for a military requirement, as prescribed in paragraph
> 44 of this annex, the request will normally be approved to be effective on
> the date requested.  Should military and personal requirements be
> compatible, the six-month period of notice may be reduced by the approving
> authority at NDHQ.


----------



## Pusser

I really wish recruiting centres would explain this better.  I've seen many postings on here with people horrified and even turned off of military service as a result of "contracts" for 7-13 years. 

Upon enrolment, members will have a certain amount of "obligatory service."  This is the CF's way of getting back our "pound of flesh" for training you and/or subsidizing your education.  Although included in one's Variable Initial Engagements (VIE), I have NEVER heard of anyone's obligatory service equalling their VIE.  In short, your VIE is how long you're allowed to stay, but there is no requirement that you actually stay that long.  I cannot speak for legal officers (who are special), but most Direct Entry Officers (i.e. those whose educations have not been subsidized) only have about three years of obligatory service (I think pilots might be longer).  You should ask your recruiter how much obligatory service will be incurred.

Although one is unlikely to be required to remain in the CF for the entire VIE, you should be aware that releasing upon completion or obligatory service, but prior to completing one's VIE, could mean a reduction in release benefits


----------



## atonz

Pusser said:
			
		

> Upon enrolment, members will have a certain amount of "obligatory service."  This is the CF's way of getting back our "pound of flesh" for training you and/or subsidizing your education.



I certainly understand the concept of a pound of flesh had my law degree been subsidized, not really if it has not. Do you think "training" includes what the Forces profile for legal officer indicates?:



> During the first appointment, a Legal Officer will be expected to complete Legal Officer Basic Training and Legal Officer Intermediate Training.



If that is the case, I think I can understand the obligatory service in exchange for this training.

It seems the recruitment process can take a very long time in any event, as indicated by this poster: 





> Recruiting Centre: Hamilton
> Regular/ Reserve: Regular
> Officer/NCM: Officer
> Trade Choice 1: Legal Officer
> Online Application: March 12, 2014
> First contact: March 14, 2014
> CFAT: April 3, 2014
> Medical: July 14, 2014
> Med Docs completed: July 24, 2014
> Interview: July 24, 2014
> Further Medical Review: February 1, 2015 (passed - March 6, 2015)
> JAG Board Interview: --
> Position(s) offered: --
> Enrollment/swearing in: --
> BMOQ: --


. 

Maybe I'll initiate the process and iron the details out as it progresses. Thank you everyone for the details provided, I have much to review.


----------



## PuckChaser

That individual needed extra medical review. If you're relatively healthy, knock a lot of that time off.


----------



## Pusser

atonz said:
			
		

> I certainly understand the concept of a pound of flesh had my law degree been subsidized, not really if it has not. Do you think "training" includes what the Forces profile for legal officer indicates?:
> 
> If that is the case, I think I can understand the obligatory service in exchange for this training.



Being a fully qualified lawyer and even one who is a member of one or more Bar Associations, does not mean someone is ready to be a Legal Officer in the CAF.  There is some training involved (BMOQ being the first course - a Legal Officer is still an officer and is expected to take on a leadership role).  There may also be environmental training involved as well as basic Legal Officer training (i.e. learn the differences between civilian and military law).  So yes, the CAF will incur a training bill for you and it's not cheap!


----------



## atonz

Pusser said:
			
		

> Being a fully qualified lawyer and even one who is a member of one or more Bar Associations, does not mean someone is ready to be a Legal Officer in the CAF.  There is some training involved (BMOQ being the first course - a Legal Officer is still an officer and is expected to take on a leadership role).  There may also be environmental training involved as well as basic Legal Officer training (i.e. learn the differences between civilian and military law).  So yes, the CAF will incur a training bill for you and it's not cheap!



I'll get some more details on the amount of training and what it entails to help me weigh the commitment.


----------



## George Wallace

atonz said:
			
		

> I'll get some more details on the amount of training and what it entails to help me weigh the commitment.



There is no magic wand that will instantly make you an officer in the CAF, even a Legal officer.  As pointed out previously, you will have to do some "military" training as well.  That does not take place over a weekend.  It will, at a minimum, take up to two years of your time.


----------



## azoute

Legal officers must do BMOQ and the two phases of legal officer training (Legal Officer Basic Training and Legal Officer Intermediate Training). They don't have to do CAP (or is it called BMOQ-L?) or any other environmental course (the info is coming from forces.ca and the recruitment center). I read somewhere the initial contract used to be 5 years for a legal officer, so it's not too much of a surprise if it's now 7 years. From what I read on this forum, lots of trade, on the officer side, have seen theirs initial contracts stretched out. 

Just my  :2c: and sorry for my english, I'm still learning.


----------



## Marusya

Hi everyone,

I have some questions regarding the recruiting process for a DEO Legal Officer (Reserve) that I am hoping someone can address:

1. I understand that the final determination is made by the JAG panel following an interview in Ottawa, Ontario.  What types of questions are asked in this interview?  How difficult/intense is it? Any tips on preparing for it, should my application get that far?

2. What is the commitment like for a Reserve Legal Officer?  I read on another thread that a 7 year commitment is expected from a Regular Force Legal Officer. Is that true for Reserve Legal Officers as well?

3. What type of work is done by military lawyers? Is it very litigation heavy?

4. I understand that the BMOQ for Reserve Legal Officers is done over the course of 5-6 weekends.  When in the course of a calendar year do these usually start?

Thank you in advance!!!


----------



## da1root

Good Day,

The only thing I can comment on is your 2nd question.

Reservists are enrolled for an Indefinite Period of Service to CRA 60.  What that means is that you can continue to work with the Reserves until you are 60 years old.  You can release (with notice) anytime between when you enroll and when you turn 60.


----------



## Marusya

Thank you for your answer Buck_HRA!


----------



## FJAG

I retired from JAG in 2009 so there might be some minor changes but I'll have a go at it.

1. The board usually sits within the region where the position needs to be filled. So if you are applying for a vacancy in Vancouver the board would interview candidates there.

The board will review your application and CV and then ask a number of questions in order to determine your level of legal experience, your level of any prior military experience, your level of participation in community activities, your second language capabilities (if any), your ability to attend training courses, the ability (time available) that you have in providing legal services to the reserve units in your area, your willingness to provide longer term Class B service, your level of physical fitness. Selection is done based on a comparative score of the applicants.

2.  Your commitment time will vary. Your initial two years of service will include completion of the Basic Officer training, Basic Legal Officer training and Intermediate legal officer training. BOT is undertaken in conjunction with other reserve force officers. The easiest for most candidates to undertake is the Army's BOT program. Legal Officer courses are generally computer based or in short one-week increments in Ottawa. Basically you should budget approximately 40 days per year during the first two years. Generally you should budget 30 days in subsequent years. Many reserve legal officers do these at the rate of a 1/2 day evening every week at one or another local armouries and by providing further legal services from their office over the phone. I should note that there were a number of reserve legal officers who would put in 50 to 70 days service per year. The minimum required in order to not become non-effective is 14 days per year but that is entirely too few.

3. There are three types of legal officers. Legal advisors; Prosecutors; and Defending Officers. LegAds advise the chain of command on various legal issues. They do no litigation of any type. The other two prosecute and defend at courts martial. These are separate positions and there are reserve positions around the country for all three. The basic training is the same for each category but subsequently there is professional advancement training that specializes on the category that you are in. It is not impossible, but not easy to move from one category to the other once you have been enrolled in one. Much of this depends on vacancies being available in your region. Manning is generally fairly full and turnover is slow.

4. As I indicated above, the Army Basic officer training is easiest to attend but it is longer than you say because you need to take both the BMQ and then the BMOQ. The frequency and duration of this training varies from region to region and I would contact your local armouries for more information.

If you wish to get more information I would suggest that you contact the AJAG (Assistant Judge Advocate General) office for your region and ask to be put in touch with the Deputy AJAG (that's the reserve force Lieutenant Colonel who supervised the Leg Ads for the region. If you are interest in Pros or Def work they will also give you a contact for the local Regional Prosecutor or Def Csl) I no longer have access to a current JAG phone list but you can get the AJAG's number through any local armoury.

 [cheers]


----------



## Marusya

Thank you very much for your response FJAG!!!


----------



## tyorke0

Hi Everyone, 

I am new to the forum so please correct me if this is in the wrong section but here is my question.
I am currently in the process of joining the reserves as an armoured recce crewman ( I have my medical and interview on tuesday) 

But am thinking about going into the legal officer position after high school.  I know that you have to have served 3 years as an officer before you can apply to become a legal officer so question 1 does any one know if they use the standard 2 months for 1 month pay back for the education or is there a special system similar to what the have for medical officers because after all your education you would owe 14 years of service if it is just 2=1

Also, It says that you can not be on a period of mandatory service on 1 Sep on the year of your application so does that mean you basically have to chance it as to whether or not you are going to be deployed on that date since the military can send you where ever and when ever.

Thanks In advance if anyone can shed some light on this


----------



## FJAG

The first thing that you need to understand is that the Military Legal Training Plan is only one specific program to become a legal officer. It only applies within the regular force and is used to take a serving regular force officer who already has an undergraduate degree and then send those individuals to a law school at the government's expense (and while receiving a salary) after which they are required to serve as a legal officer for a mandatory period of time. This is the most expensive program for the government and accordingly only a very few of the branch's positions are filled this way and, accordingly, it is only open once in a while. Individuals apply in competition at such times that the program is opened.

To become a legal officer in the reserves you must apply as a direct entry officer (DEO). This means that you must already have completed law school, completed your articles and then have been called to the bar for one of the provincial law societies at the time of your application.  Furthermore there must be a vacancy open for a reserve legal officer within the province where you live at that time and you will be in competition with other candidates for the vacancy.

The same applies to anyone who wants to become a legal officer in the regular force (other than serving officers who can apply for the MLTP), Candidates must apply as a direct entry officer candidate after already having been to law school, completed articles and been called to the bar. Competitions are generally (but not always) run annually nation wide.

The first step, therefore, for a DEO (regular or reserve) is to get into a law school. Most provinces require two years (60 credit hours) of undergraduate studies. Entry to law school is competitive and is based on grade point average and Law School Aptitude Test (LSAT) scores. If accepted you take a three year JD program. Article programs vary province to province and you would need to check with the appropriate provincial law society as to its details.

To answer your specific questions: 

1. The issue of 2 for 1 payback is irrelevant as you are not eligible for the MLTP.

2.  The mandatory service they speak of is one where the candidate has already gone through a program in the CF (such as dental officer or medical officer and (I think Royal Military College) where you are already legally obliged to serve for a specific period of years. Again this issue applies to an MLTP candidates which, as a reservist, you do not qualify for.

 :subbies:

*(Edited to change LOTP to MLTP)


----------



## tyorke0

First off FJAG,

Thank you for taking the time to respond 

However I believe must have misspoken in my previous post.  I was looking at going full time after high school, going to RMC to become an officer (possibly infantry officer or armored officer , serve the 3 years in that role and then applying to become legal officer.  Would you be able to shed some light on how that process works.

Also I apologise I am not very well informed as to how the process works 

This is all I received from my recuiter as well as what is listed on the forces website :

"Here is what I have found out regarding Legal Officers. The position is open for Regular force Officers only at this time.

1.      THE 2016/17 MPLANS ARE OPEN TO ALL REG F OFFICERS IN ALL MOSIDS. ALL APPLICANTS MUST MEET THE FOLLOWING MINIMUM ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA:
A.      HAVE COMPLETED A MINIMUM OF THREE YEARS OF A FULL TIME UNIVERSITY CURRICULUM, OR THE EQUIVALENT
B.      MEET THE MINIMUM MEDICAL STANDARD FOR THE TARGET MOSID
C.      NOT NORMALLY BE ABOVE THE SUBSTANTIVE RANK OF CAPT/LT(N) AT THE TIME OF THE CONVENING OF THE MPLANS SELECTION BOARD
D.      HAVE SERVED THREE YEARS IN THE REG F AFTER QUALIFYING IN THE BASIC LEVEL SPECIFICATIONS FOR HIS OR HER CURRENT OFFICER MOSID
E.      BE ABLE TO COMPLETE A TRAINING PROGRAM FROM AN ACCREDITED CANADIAN UNIVERSITY LEADING TO A SUITABLE DEGREE IAW THE MOSID ENTRY LEVEL EDUCATION STANDARD,AND
F.      AS OF 1 SEP 16 NOT BE SERVING ON A PERIOD OF OBLIGATORY SERVICE IN RESPECT OF OTHER MILITARY SPONSORED COURSES
2.      MPLANS APPLICATIONS MUST INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING:
A.      MAXIMUM 800-WORD BIOGRAPHICAL ESSAY DESCRIBING PERSONAL BACKGROUND AND MOTIVATION FOR THE PROGRAM
B.      OFFICIAL SEALED TRANSCRIPTS FROM ALL UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES ATTENDED
C.      COMPLETED ANNEX A APPLICATION FORM (REF A) AND
D.      APPLICABLE ANNEX A STATEMENT OF UNDERSTANDING,WHICH,FOR THE MDTP IS APPENDIX 1, FOR THE MLTP,APPENDIX 2 AND FOR THE MPTP, APPENDIX 5 AT REF A
E.      CONFIRMATION OF CONDUCT SHEET
F.      CONFIRMATION OF MEDICAL CATEGORY FORM
3.      THE MPLANS SELECTION BOARD WILL MERIT LIST APPLICANTS ON THE BASIS OF THE ANTICIPATED VALUE THAT EACH WOULD BRING TO THE CAF AS A MEMBER OF THE TARGET MOSID. CRITERIA USED IN PAST YEARS INCLUDE:
A.      LAST THREE PERS
B.      COURSE REPORTS
C.      CO S LETTER OF RECOMMENDATION
D.      DIVERSE AND CHALLENGING EXPERIENCES IN THE CAF,INCLUDING DEPLOYMENTS
E.      DEMONSTRATED ACADEMIC POTENTIAL
F.      BILINGUAL CAPABILITY AND
G.      800-WORD BIOGRAPHICAL ESSAY
" 
thanks again for taking the time to respond I greatly appreciate it.


----------



## FJAG

Okay. You're right. I misunderstood that you were trying to get there by way of the reserves which won't work.

I'll try to answer your question with the new facts that you have presented but I do caution you that while I am a retired legal officer I do not know all the ins and outs of recruiting and particularly ROTP/RMC recruiting.

For your info this is the link to DAOD 5049-1 Obligatory service. http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-defence-admin-orders-directives-5000/5049-1.page

So first things first. Assuming that you are enrolled at RMC under the Regular Officer Training Plan. The DAOD states at para 7.1 that the obligatory period of services varies from 36 to 60 months. For a normal four year degree I would expect 5 years service being required but you should discuss this in more detail with a recruiter. That essentially means you would serve five years in some other branch before being eligible to apply for the Military Legal Training Plan (Sorry for some reason I called it the LOTP in my last post). 

Again if you are accepted into the MLTP you will need to do a 3 year JD degree followed by a term as an articling student (which can be up to a year long depending on the province where you will be placed to article) which will take you to a further maximum five obligatory years that you need to serve as a legal officer. 

If I can offer you a piece of information for consideration, it's this::

While the RMC/MLTP route may appear attractive because of the free education, it has some drawbacks. The first is that neither RMC nor the MLTP are guaranteed (especially the MLTP). Both are competitive and very few MLTP candidates are selected. The second is that your career will move slowly because you are changing from one branch to the other. You will be a cadet at RMC, a 2nd lieutenant after graduation, then a lieutenant and Captain.  At the point where you might be starting to enter the promotion zone for the rank of major you are in effect leaving that branch to start a new career with the legal branch where you will have to complete all of your education before again entering the major's promotion zone. (So that would be 14-15 some odd years after you leave high school if things go right) (Note that in the legal branch the rank of major is your basic working rank; the rank of captain is the branch's lowest rank and is basically a legal officer in training)

Assuming that you have the aptitude for being a lawyer in the first place, then if you go to university on your own hook you will have been called to the bar after a total of six years. (during this time you should serve as a reservist to increase your base knowledge of the military) At that point you could apply as a DEO in the rank of Captain and be promoted to major within 2-3 years. (so some 8-9 years after high school if things go right) On top of that if the military career doesn't come about you still have a profession to fall back on.

One additional factor. Second language skills. RMC will teach those to a basic level but a civilian university won't. A good second language ability will aid your chances at being selected for DEO LegO. In that respect you should look to getting that training/experience on your own.

One final piece of advice. Go back to your recruiter to discuss all of your options before making any decision. I'm probably the most knowledgeable guy on this forum on this subject (been a Leg O for 23 years) but I retired in 2009 so my knowledge is getting stale and things do change from time to time.

 :subbies:


----------



## tyorke0

Thankyou very much for your reply I greatly appreciate it.  I will definitely go back to my recruiter and discuss all of this.  Thanks


----------



## tyorke0

Also last question,

If I go this route and do everything through the military and serve my 5 years as a legal officer, if I then leave the military at that point, would I then have all the certifications or requirements to serve as a lawyer in the civilian world such as opening a private firm etc. or would I need additional training or certifications before I could be a lawyer as a civilian.

Thanks


----------



## Blackadder1916

tyorke0 said:
			
		

> Also last question,
> 
> If I go this route and do everything through the military and serve my 5 years as a legal officer, if I then leave the military at that point, would I then have all the certifications or requirements to serve as a lawyer in the civilian world such as opening a private firm etc. or would I need additional training or certifications before I could be a lawyer as a civilian.
> 
> Thanks



It appears that you have not fully understood FJAG's learned explanations.  The military does not educate soldiers to be lawyers, they train lawyers to be soldiers.  To be a lawyer in the CAF, one has to go to a recognized Canadian (civilian) law school just like all the rest of the potential ambulance chasers out there and then they have to article with a law firm or other appropriate legal position (civilian) and then get called to the bar in a province (i.e. receive a civilian license to practise law).  Then, and only then, does the Canadian Forces start training an already licensed lawyer the idiosyncrasies of military legal practices.  So the question is not do you need further civilian certifications to practise law after leaving the military, but does a civilian lawyer have enough certifications to join the CF as a lawyer.

Yes, as quoted in the message announcing an MLTP competition for 16/17, there is a rare possibility of a serving Reg F officer being subsidized for a legal education, but (as FJAG stressed) it should not to be confused with probability nor should it form the basis of a plan.  I've known a few (in years long past, since like FJAG, I'm also retired) who applied for MLTP.  Most didn't get accepted; those who really wanted to be lawyers left the Reg F and went to law school on their own dime.  The one individual of my acquaintance who did get accepted for MLTP, surprisingly (or so the story goes) did not get accepted into law school.  He (a DEO who entered the CF with a masters degree) continued in his original occupation and retired as a colonel.  If your end game is to be a lawyer, plan your education with that goal in mind.


----------



## FJAG

Blackadder1916 is right on.

The short answer to your question is that every legal officer in the CF, regular or reserve, have completed law school, articles and been called to the bar of a provincial law society. In fact the military pays the appropriate law society dues for each of its legal officers every year to keep their practicing certificates active. On top of that every legal officer remains liable to his/her respective law society for that society's code of professional conduct. Accordingly on retirement from the CF every legal officer is entitled to immediately take up a civilian practice IN HIS HOME PROVINCE. That last bit is important because even if called to the bar in Manitoba I can practice law ON BEHALF OF THE CF anywhere in Canada and beyond. BUT, when I retire I'm only entitled to practice in Manitoba. In order to practice elsewhere I must follow the appropriate law societies rules and procedures for transferring my practicing certificate to another province.

 :subbies:


----------



## tyorke0

Oh Ok i see.  Thank you all very much for your help.  

I greatly appreciate it.

Take care


----------



## DazedandConfused19

Hi everyone,

I recently finalized my JAG application. I've provided my online application, passed by CFAT for a DEO position, and gave the JAG office my updated CV, reference letters, and personal statement. 

I was wondering, what next?

The person in charge of my file at the CFRC told me that the JAG office will contact me directly once they have completed my assessment. He also told me that this could take "a couple of months". 

So I was wondering:

1. Is there a general timeline for JAG recruitment? 
2. How long does it typically take for the JAG office to review a file?
3. The career counselor told me that at the moment, the JAG office is only looking to fill 6-7 spots so I'm not super hopeful.  I don't have any prior military experience and only have a year of practice under my belt. How much experience do typical JAG recruits have before joining the office?
4. Once the JAG office has assessed my file, what happens next? Do they call me for an interview? Will they let me know if they have decided that I do not qualify for an interview?

Thanks everyone,


----------



## mariomike

See also,

Legal Officers  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/83972.0

7 Year Commitment? 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/121752.0
"I am considering a career with the CF as a legal officer."

Law articling?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/96732.0
"I'm starting law school this year, and am interested in a military law career."

Legal Officer App Process  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/119654.0

any legal officers here?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/101747.0
"It looks like a really exciting career path"

Legal Officer  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/29039.0

Legal Officer DEO in a couple years - any advice on preparing?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/90452.0

lawyer wants to join JAG...has questions  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/109676.0

JAG Officers  
https://army.ca/forums/threads/83.0

Legal Officer Recruitment 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/109276.0

etc...

_As always,_  Recruiting is your most trusted source of information.


----------



## FJAG

Marionmike has pretty much pulled together everything that you could ask for.

As to your specifc questions:

1 &2 Your recruiter will know better than anyone here. A couple of months is not unreasonable but ir could even take longer.

3. The applicants' experience varies from year to year. Since the competition is competitive, the more that you have, the better. Also military experience (regular or reserve) and a capability in both official languages are definite assets.

4. You will be advised one way or the other. Assuming that you are not disqualified for failing to meet the required standards, you should be scheduled for an interview by a board.

 :subbies:


----------



## DazedandConfused19

Thanks for your replies Mariomike and FJAG. 

I guess there is nothing to do now but wait...


----------



## DazedandConfused19

FJAG,

So if I meet the required standards, will I definitely be interviewed? 
Or will I only be interviewed if I rank in the top X% (whatever that may be) of candidates that meet the standards?

The reason I ask is that although I may not have as much experience as other applicants, I would love the chance to meet the Board and show them my passion for the job, etc.


----------



## PuckChaser

The reserves training year is September to end of April, and unit training shuts down over the May-Aug months for collective training (BMOQ-L, Trade Courses, etc). Your BMOQ will likely be the weekends in Sept/Oct/Nov, or Jan/Feb/Mar depending on how your local unit has its training calendar set up.


----------



## FJAG

DazedandConfused19 said:
			
		

> FJAG,
> 
> So if I meet the required standards, will I definitely be interviewed?
> Or will I only be interviewed if I rank in the top X% (whatever that may be) of candidates that meet the standards?
> 
> The reason I ask is that although I may not have as much experience as other applicants, I would love the chance to meet the Board and show them my passion for the job, etc.



I can't give you a definitive answer as I've been retired from the branch since 2009. In my day everyone who met the required enrolment standards was invited to an interview. 

 :subbies:


----------



## fata morgana

Marusya said:
			
		

> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have some questions regarding the recruiting process for a DEO Legal Officer (Reserve) that I am hoping someone can address:
> 
> 1. I understand that the final determination is made by the JAG panel following an interview in Ottawa, Ontario.  What types of questions are asked in this interview?  How difficult/intense is it? Any tips on preparing for it, should my application get that far?




Could someone who has been through the JAG recruitment recently share a bit on these questions? When they schedule you for an interview, is the applicant informed of the topics that will be tested on? Do they test you during the interview on your foreign languages abilities?
What materials did you find useful in preparing for this interview (mostly internet, Letourneau & Drapeau's book)?

How long does the process take?

When do you find out where you will be posted? 

Throughout your career, can you be posted to any base or only at the JAG offices (which should exclude places like Gander, Goose Bay) ?

What is the average age to start with JAG?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## FJAG

Before I start -- are you talking about regular force or reserve?  There is some difference between the two.

 :cheers:


----------



## fata morgana

Regular. thank you.


----------



## FJAG

fata morgana said:
			
		

> Could someone who has been through the JAG recruitment recently share a bit on these questions?



With a handle like fata morgana, I hope that you are not just a mirage trolling this site.

When they schedule you for an interview, is the applicant informed of the topics that will be tested on? 
 There is no testing. The interview is to learn about you as an individual. You'll be asked questons about yourself, what you have accomplished and what you are bringing to the table that makes you a better candidate than the others.

Do they test you during the interview on your foreign languages abilities? Again, no test but if you indicate that you speak both official languages you may be engaged in conversation in the other official language to see how you do.

What materials did you find useful in preparing for this interview (mostly internet, Letourneau & Drapeau's book)?  Neither of those books are well thought of by many people in the branch. You're far better off to be broadly knowledgeable in current events and the Canadian Forces in general. If you are a specialist in a unique area then being prepared to discuss that may be useful. Remember, the board will already have been provided information from the recruiting office about your level of education, past experience etc. This is a chance for you to impress them on a personal level.

How long does the process take? It varies depending upon the number of people scheduled for that day but count on twenty minutes to an hour.

When do you find out where you will be posted?  Not until after your entire recruiting and selection process is complete. Most newly enrolled LegOs start off in Ottawa but it is possible that you may be sent to a regional office.

Throughout your career, can you be posted to any base or only at the JAG offices (which should exclude places like Gander, Goose Bay) ? Postings are to established JAG/AJAG/DJA/RMP etc offices however as the CF changes its presence in various communities, so does the JAG to ensure proper coverage.

What is the average age to start with JAG? I'm not sure I can answer that very well. It varies from year to year. My guess is generally from the mid-twenties to early-thirties although clearly we have taken in folks older than that. 

 :cheers:


----------



## H11F

FJAG said:
			
		

> What materials did you find useful in preparing for this interview (mostly internet, Letourneau & Drapeau's book)?  Neither of those books are well thought of by many people in the branch. You're far better off to be broadly knowledgeable in current events and the Canadian Forces in general. If you are a specialist in a unique area then being prepared to discuss that may be useful. Remember, the board will already have been provided information from the recruiting office about your level of education, past experience etc. This is a chance for you to impress them on a personal level.
> 
> How long does the process take? It varies depending upon the number of people scheduled for that day but count on twenty minutes to an hour.
> 
> What is the average age to start with JAG? I'm not sure I can answer that very well. It varies from year to year. My guess is generally from the mid-twenties to early-thirties although clearly we have taken in folks older than that.
> 
> :cheers:



I figured I'd add a little bit to this post, though I'll stay in my lane and speak to items I am familiar with. Upfront, I did not enter through the Direct Entry Officer program, but rather through the Military Legal Training Plan. This means I went to my interview not as a lawyer, but as an infantry officer with high hopes.

To prepare for my interview, though I believe this to be well-rounded advice, I took to time to learn everything about the branch I could. You can access the annual reports for the Branch online, and this will provide you with some information about the Branch, about the stats (though that wasn't really important), as well as recent court decisions of importance to the Branch (this was important). Going in with a firm understanding of what you may be signing up for is always a good start. To put it in perspective: I was asked what the "vision" of the Branch was.

My interview was fairly long, perhaps even over an hour. Why? Because I was interested in a lot of things, so I asked a lot of questions at the end. This may not be the best for you, that's your call to make, but it was an opportunity to learn for me and show my interest and eagerness (ask FJAG, I'm pretty sure I bugged him with about a dozen messages on here alone).

As for age... ugh. I'm starting to feel like an old man. I was accepted in early 2016 and started school September of that year. I'm 35 now. So... Age is only a number?

Hope that helps,
H11F.


----------



## FJAG

H11F said:
			
		

> ...
> To prepare for my interview, though I believe this to be well-rounded advice, I took to time to learn everything about the branch I could. You can access the annual reports for the Branch online, and this will provide you with some information about the Branch, about the stats (though that wasn't really important), as well as recent court decisions of importance to the Branch (this was important). Going in with a firm understanding of what you may be signing up for is always a good start. To put it in perspective: I was asked what the "vision" of the Branch was.
> ...



That's excellent advice!

Here's the link: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-org-structure/judge-advocate-general.page

 :cheers:


----------



## csers

What are the chances that my file could have been closed without notifying me? I applied over a year ago, and have heard nothing. Because the Legal Officer process is outside the regular recruitment process, the recruiting office hasn't been able to advise me of anything. Now I'm wondering if I was rejected for some reason and they forgot to tell me...


----------



## FJAG

csers said:
			
		

> What are the chances that my file could have been closed without notifying me? I applied over a year ago, and have heard nothing. Because the Legal Officer process is outside the regular recruitment process, the recruiting office hasn't been able to advise me of anything. Now I'm wondering if I was rejected for some reason and they forgot to tell me...



All legal officer recruiting funnels through the office of the DJAG COS in Ottawa and whose name and contact methods ought to be available on the JAG's DWAN website. If a local recruiting office does not have information on the current round of recruiting available they should be able to check status through that office.

 :cheers:


----------



## Sorcerers

I applied in May 2016, completed my CFAT in August 2016, and was told that my file was "proceeding" in September 2016. Since then, I've called my local CFRC three or four times and emailed twice - but so far, no response. Is a two-year, post-CFAT waiting period normal for the DEO Legal Officer applications?

I'm also curious about what looks to be a new call-out for applications on the CAF website. At a glance, it seems that the starting salary has been raised and there is a fresh request for applications. If I haven't heard back in two years, should I re-apply?

Thanks!!


----------



## FJAG

The process varies from time to time depending on the need for new Legal Officers. Back in the 1990s and earlier there were often years between intakes. Since 2000 there has been a fairly large expansion in the branch with several DEO and MLTP candidates being taken in mostly annually. 

I've been away from the branch too long to know how things are going at this time but generally expansion seems to have stopped and attrition is low. The recruiting office should know what is going on or at the very least should be able to find out.

 :cheers:


----------



## fata morgana

csers said:
			
		

> What are the chances that my file could have been closed without notifying me? I applied over a year ago, and have heard nothing. Because the Legal Officer process is outside the regular recruitment process, the recruiting office hasn't been able to advise me of anything. Now I'm wondering if I was rejected for some reason and they forgot to tell me...



I recently found out that they have about 350 applicants and they will be interviewing 10 people in January. Good luck!


----------



## 135Doris

fata morgana said:
			
		

> I recently found out that they have about 350 applicants and they will be interviewing 10 people in January. Good luck!



Are those 350 applicants are DEO, MLTP or both?


----------



## TGO2

fata morgana said:
			
		

> I recently found out that they have about 350 applicants and they will be interviewing 10 people in January. Good luck!


I got a call and was told this as well. I assume that a number of the applicants have moved on in their careers/personal lives and are no longer interested. It has been about 18 months since I applied.


----------



## ontheedge

To the people reading this post - and applying to JAG - are you already in the CAF?  Do you have army experience?  I’ve heard they rarely hire anyone outside CAF and wondering if that still holds true.


----------



## fata morgana

ontheedge said:
			
		

> #1: no
> #2: no
> #3: from talking to current & past JAGs it looks like ppl with prior CAF experience tend to be preferred


----------



## 135Doris

I applied as a current military member for this year competition. 

The forecast for F/Y 18-19 is to hire 11 external candidates and 5 internal via MLTP as the information seen on Director of Personnel Generation Requirements' web page


----------



## csers

Yes, I got the same call, and he told me a little about their marking grid... points for legal experience, strength of reference letters, and personal stmt, and I *think* other experience. I don't know where I'll fit- I am in more of an advisory role atm, so not really practicing, but I have prior military experience.  rly:

Any idea how it might play out in an offer, if you are already commissioned?


----------



## fata morgana

Does anyone have an idea when the 2019 cohort would be sent for basic training?


----------



## Magisterjuris

Hello again everyone. It has been some time since I posted. I recieved phone calls similar to the board members above regarding JAG recruiting - how assessments are made, the number of applicants and so on. I was called last week by a Major from the OJAG, and was invited to an interview at NDHQ Ottawa. Naturally, as excited as I am, this also leads to a few questions as to where this fits in the process etc. and I would appreciate any help anyone can provide. 

1. The Major indicated that the positions were highly competitive and that about 400 applicants were in the system (at that point I was waiting for her to say, "and unfortunately we are not proceeding with your file") and that 12 had been selected for interviews. I noted in the DEO intake list available elsewhere on the site, that 10 DEO officers are expected to be hired this FY. Am I correct in my interpretation of these numbers? Essentially that it is 12 finalists for 10 positions? Or did I misunderstand the Major?

2. Following the interview, are the applicants re-listed in a new Competition List ranking? Last recruiting period, I was ranked 28th out of that year's applicants and unfortunately did not get asked to interview with the JAG. I am just curious as to how the interview interacts with a potential offer? Is it used to create a new, final ranking? 

3. Are there any additional steps following the interview similar to civilian practice? I.e. a second interview etc?

4. While the information above has been very helpful in anticipating questions that may be asked, and things to concentrate on in the meantime, If anyone has anything to add, that would be fantastic. 

Thank you in advance for any information anyone will be able to provide. As noted in my posts prior, this Board is an invaluable resource for those going through the recruiting process or contemplating a career in the CAF.


----------



## FJAG

Please appreciate the fact that its been nine years since I was with the branch so things may very well have changed since then.

In my day there would be several candidates short-listed for every position. twelve for ten positions sounds a bit low but twelve is what one could reasonably expect to be interviewed in one day.

Candidates will be ranked during the interviews and at that point I would expect that after that offers will be made to the top ten candidates. The ranking is necessary as sometimes candidates will decide not to accept an offer or fail out on one or another final enrollment criteria or even the basic officers' course in which case replacements are sought from the list in order of rank (that's another reason why I think only 12 candidates being interviewed is a bit low - you do not want to reform a board to pick additional people in the case that there are drop-outs)

There is no "second interview" per se. The board makes the ranking and unless something unusual happens offers are based on the ranking.

 :subbies:


----------



## TGO2

Magisterjuris Good luck! That is awesome.


----------



## winds_13

As an update, there is currently 3 of an initial 10 positions still available for DEO Legal Officer (RegF) for FY 2018-19, according to the  current Strategic Intake Plan (SIP).

Current outlook for FY 2019-20 is a SIP of 4, which may change.


----------



## Magisterjuris

Thanks TGO2. It is only the interview. Don't have an offer in hand yet...

Winds_13, thank you for that additional info. It raises a couple of questions:

1. I assume the SIPs are tied to the fiscal year? Would my interview be for the 2018/19 intake or 2019/20?

2. Given that some of the positions available have already been filled, I assume that the positions are filled "on-the-fly"? -  rather than interviewing all the shortlisted applicants, ranking them, and then selecting a few for further processing all at the same time?

3. Does the info also provide the number of potential applicants for the remaining three spots?

Thanks for any help you or anyone else is able to provide. Hopefully with the generous assistance of the forum, I can maximize my chance at further processing.


----------



## winds_13

Magisterjuris said:
			
		

> Thanks TGO2. It is only the interview. Don't have an offer in hand yet...
> 
> Winds_13, thank you for that additional info. It raises a couple of questions:
> 
> 1. I assume the SIPs are tied to the fiscal year? Would my interview be for the 2018/19 intake or 2019/20?
> 
> 2. Given that some of the positions available have already been filled, I assume that the positions are filled "on-the-fly"? -  rather than interviewing all the shortlisted applicants, ranking them, and then selecting a few for further processing all at the same time?
> 
> 3. Does the info also provide the number of potential applicants for the remaining three spots?
> 
> Thanks for any help you or anyone else is able to provide. Hopefully with the generous assistance of the forum, I can maximize my chance at further processing.



Magisterjuris, to answer some of your questions:

1. There are currently 12 individuals selected for interviews by the JAG Board this month. Next round of JAG interviews should be in June. According to the SIP, 9 of 10 positions for FY 2018/19 have now been hired, so there is currently 1 position remaining, as far as I am aware. This means 12 persons added to those already completed their interview for 1 remaining position. Current outlook for FY 2019/20 is 4 positions (RegF DEO Legal Officer), which could change. 

2. I am unsure how the JAG Branch ranks the Legal Officer applicants for selection. Assumedly, the interview with the JAG Board has significant weight along with one`s experience and qualifications.

3. If found suitable by the JAG Board, you would complete the remaining processing requirements for employment in the CAF (Medical, Interview with an MCC, Background Checks, etc.) before being placed on the Competition List for potential selection.


----------



## WannaServe123

Magisterjuris,

Best of luck.  I am also interviewing this week for a legal officer position.  But this will be my last one-I will be age restricted if I don't the job this first time up to bat.  I will serve in the reserves in whatever capacity I can if I don't get it.

And to echo your sentiment-thank you, thank you, thank you !! to all who give of your time to answer our questions on this site.  I do hope to be able to pass on some wisdom should I be chosen to serve.

Sincerely appreciate all of your time, past and present service!! I have consulted this site often as I worked through my CFAT in summer 2016 until now, and was always amazed at the time you all give. Merci.

WannaServe123.


----------



## csers

Congratulations! I saw on another thread that you got your offer  I'm still slogging through the process


----------



## Chad.wiseman

What do you mean by age restricted?  Are any applicants being considered without law degree who have been accepted into a law school?


----------



## winds_13

Chad.wiseman, by age restricted he assumedly means that he would not be able to complete an initial service contract, called a Variable Initial Engagement, before reaching mandatory retirement at age 60.

For your second question, the minimum Entry Standard to apply as a Direct Entry (DEO) Legal Officer is to have already passed the bar in province. To be competitive, you will likely likely need several years of experience practicing law in a relative field (ie. Criminal Law, Administrative Law,  International Law, Labour and Employment Law, and/or Human Rights Law.


----------



## Chad.wiseman

Thanks.  Is there another entry method for those accepted into law school?


----------



## FJAG

Chad.wiseman said:
			
		

> Thanks.  Is there another entry method for those accepted into law school?



No. Qualified and serving members of the Regular Force may apply for the Military Legal Training Plan, when available, while all others must apply for Direct Entry which has a prerequisite of having completed law school and articles, being called to the bar and being a member in good standing of one of the provincial law societies.

https://forces.ca/en/career/legal-officer/

 :cheers:


----------



## Chad.wiseman

I noticed that a ct for the mltp is not open currently.  Does that happen sometimes (ie allow a reserve applicant ct once they get accepted into law so they can take advantage of mltp)?


----------



## winds_13

Chad.wiseman said:
			
		

> I noticed that a ct for the mltp is not open currently.  Does that happen sometimes (ie allow a reserve applicant ct once they get accepted into law so they can take advantage of mltp)?



No, and there are no exceptions. You must be in the Regular Force in order to apply for MLTP and it is an extremely competitive in-service selection program.

You can, however, join the reserves in a different trade and apply for a CT/OT after you graduate, complete articling, and have been called to the bar. It would provide you with a part-time job and summer employment as well as $2000/ year (up to a max of $8000) tuition reimbursement.


----------



## Chad.wiseman

One last question.  Does one have to be bilingual to be considered?


----------



## FJAG

Chad.wiseman said:
			
		

> One last question.  Does one have to be bilingual to be considered?



No. However, selection is competitive and being proficient in both official languages will provide you with a higher score. Having served in the military as either a reservist or regular is also an asset and therefore even if you are not now qualified to apply, but intend to apply once you have been called to the bar then it would be a good idea to join the reserves in some other branch while attending law school.

 :cheers:


----------



## WannaServe123

winds_13 said:
			
		

> Chad.wiseman, by age restricted he assumedly means that he would not be able to complete an initial service contract, called a Variable Initial Engagement, before reaching mandatory retirement at age 60.
> 
> For your second question, the minimum Entry Standard to apply as a Direct Entry (DEO) Legal Officer is to have already passed the bar in province. To be competitive, you will likely likely need several years of experience practicing law in a relative field (ie. Criminal Law, Administrative Law,  International Law, Labour and Employment Law, and/or Human Rights Law.


Winds 13: Exactly.   Legal officers commit to a minimum of 7 years:  I am turning 53 this summer, so I need to be enrolled before then to be able to be a legal officer.  Thanks-Good luck all. Wannaserve.


----------



## csers

Just got the email - Legal Officer is closed until fiscal 2021/22   They asked if I was interested in other officer trades but I don't know that I am....


----------



## woodrunner

That's unfortunate... I guess they won't process any application until the end of 2020/beginning of 2021?


----------



## csers

I can't say for sure, but that's the impression I have.


----------



## da1root

csers said:
			
		

> Just got the email - Legal Officer is closed until fiscal 2021/22   They asked if I was interested in other officer trades but I don't know that I am....





			
				woodrunner said:
			
		

> That's unfortunate... I guess they won't process any application until the end of 2020/beginning of 2021?



If you got an email stating that the occupation is closed until 21/22 it is likely a typo.  The numbers are only released 1 year at a time (i.e the number for 19/20 are being working on); the next FY is 20/21 and the numbers are not released until December 2019 at the earliest (sometimes not until January).  If the occupation is closed for this year than processing will commence in December 2019/January 2020 for the 20/21 Fiscal Year.


----------



## csers

When discussing different MOCs, they mentioned my PCL scores - what is that? It's a new term on me  ???


----------



## mariomike

csers said:
			
		

> When discussing different MOCs, they mentioned my PCL scores - what is that? It's a new term on me  ???



Not a complete answer. But, this from a CAF Recruiter,



			
				Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> I would not state they take in as many as possible; the CAF has been recruiting for a number of years and based on this they know the PCL/MP scores of those selected in previous years and will strive to select individuals at the same scores or higher in future years.


----------



## csers

I saw that, but I'm still not sure what it is or what it's comprised of... is it the overall score on your file??


----------



## mariomike

csers said:
			
		

> I saw that, but I'm still not sure what it is or what it's comprised of... is it the overall score on your file??



As I said, not much about it on this site.

You may, or may not, wish to try Googling "PCL score" while waiting for a more definitive answer from a CAF Recruiter.


----------



## winds_13

csers said:
			
		

> When discussing different MOCs, they mentioned my PCL scores - what is that? It's a new term on me  ???



csers,

The PCL, or Priority Control Line, is a cut-off marker comprised of the combined score from the aptitude (CFAT) and personality (TSD) testing. For many competitive trades, such as most DEO Officer positions, it is used to determine if an applicant is competitive enough for selection, and thus processing. 

When you were talking to the recruiting centre staff, they may have mentioned the term as it is used to determine, along with the Entry Standards, what other officer trades you may be competitive for.

However, as you are likely aware, Legal Officer selection is a bit different than that for most other occupations. Instead of your PCL, each applicant's complete CV and legal experience are compared, with the most desirable applicants being invited to interview with the Office of the JAG in Ottawa. It is very competitive.


----------



## csers

Ah! Thanks for clarifying


----------



## jimm

Hello,

I'm going into my 4th and final year of my undergrad and have plans to apply to law schools for next September. I'm considering applying as a legal officer after graduating, passing the bar and getting a couple years of practical experience. Applications for law school aren't due until November, and I likely won't receive any offers until March at the earliest. 

My questions are: could I apply for the reserves right now, while my future is in limbo? If I were to enter the reserves for next fiscal year, would transfering to regular force legal officer after my studies be possible? I'm planning on applying to 5 or 6 schools across the country, so I probably won't know where I'll be living next September until the spring. If it makes any difference, I'm planning on applying as a logistics officer in the reserves.

Thanks!


----------



## FJAG

jimm said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> I'm going into my 4th and final year of my undergrad and have plans to apply to law schools for next September. I'm considering applying as a legal officer after graduating, passing the bar and getting a couple years of practical experience. Applications for law school aren't due until November, and I likely won't receive any offers until March at the earliest.
> 
> My questions are: could I apply for the reserves right now, while my future is in limbo? If I were to enter the reserves for next fiscal year, would transfering to regular force legal officer after my studies be possible? I'm planning on applying to 5 or 6 schools across the country, so I probably won't know where I'll be living next September until the spring. If it makes any difference, I'm planning on applying as a logistics officer in the reserves.
> 
> Thanks!



You may certainly enter the reserves but not as a legal officer until such time as you are called to the bar and a member in good standing of one of the provincial law societies. Reserve training will stand you in good stead for any future application to the legal branch as either a regular force or reserve legal officer.

Once you are qualified, you may apply to become a legal officer but the positions are competitive. Reserve Force Legal officers are regionally based (approximately 60 positions) and there must be a vacancy in your particular region in order to be considered. Regular Force legal positions are recruited on a national basis and are very competitive. Prior military service (Reg or Res) and fluency in both official languages are a definite assets as is some practical experience in law after being called to the bar.

 :cheers:


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## jimm

FJAG,

Thanks for the quick reply. My question regarding the reserves wasn't about entering them as a reservist legal officer. Rather, I was wondering whether I could apply as a reservist for any other trade, without knowing where I'll be living in a year. So assuming I wanted to apply as a reservist logististics officer right now, would that be possible in my situation?


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## winds_13

jimm said:
			
		

> FJAG,
> 
> Thanks for the quick reply. My question regarding the reserves wasn't about entering them as a reservist legal officer. Rather, I was wondering whether I could apply as a reservist for any other trade, without knowing where I'll be living in a year. So assuming I wanted to apply as a reservist logististics officer right now, would that be possible in my situation?



jimm,

When you apply for the Primary Reserves (PRes), you apply to a specific unit, which is geographically based. I'd recommend you look at what schools you could potentially end up attending next year and what reserve units are located nearby. If you go to a school in a major city, like Toronto, there will be many reserve units to choose from... not the case if you go to Windsor, Queens, TRU, UofS, etc. Go speak with your local reserve recruiters, they will be able to give you information about how it all works.


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## jimm

Will do, thanks!


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## adhowe

Hello, 

Does anyone know how strict the CAF are on the legal practice areas (Canadian Criminal Law, International Law, Administrative Law, Labour and Employment Law or Human Rights Law) when applying? I currently practice Immigration law and wanted to know if this would be a bar?


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## winds_13

adhowe, as far as I am aware they do not have hard requirements for the type of law but there is stated "preferred" areas of expertise (criminal, international, administrative, etc.). It is more a question of conpetitiveness compared to other applicants. 

In addition, as of right now, the CAF is not planning to hire any Direct Entry (DEO) Legal Officers in Fiscal Year 2020/2021. Last year there were several hundred applicants from which the legal branch selected about a dozen to interview, based largely off of their CVs.

Things that you can do to make your application more competitive include: increasing practice experience, particularly in their desired fields; improved ability in your second language (French); having relevant military experience (ie. consider joining the reserves as an officer); and, scoring high on the aptitude test (CFAT). Hope that helps.


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## FJAG

winds_13 has it right. The military is served by both military legal officers and civilian Department of Justice lawyers. The later concentrate on the non military topics such as contracts, claims etc while the military legal officers (while practicing in a wide area of law) concentrate on military justice, operational law and military administrative law.

Military justice law depends heavily on civilian criminal substantive law while practiced in a different procedural context (summary trials and courts martial) so a good background in civilian criminal law is an asset. Administrative and international law is also useful but generally not that easy to get experience in on the civilian side.

Prior military experience and second language capabilities are highly desirable and can greatly increase competitive standing.
Any military service, including reserve service, is useful but experience as a commissioned officer is preferable. The Office of the JAG does have a reserve component of some 65 officers spread across Canada (practicing as one of legal advisors, regional prosecutors, or defence counsel). These officers serve within their local region and are not subject to being posted around the country. Local recruiting offices often do not know if there are vacancies available and you may wish to determine the possibility of open positions by contacting your local regional Deputy Assistant Judge Advocate General (DAJAG) through the regional Assistant Judge Advocate General (AJAG) office or the Deputy Director of Military Prosecutions or the Deputy Director of Defence Counsel Services. I don't have phone numbers for these individuals but they should be available through the local AJAG office. Once you do have information on availability, you will have to go through the local recruiting office for recruitment assessment and administration.

Please note that in order to be eligible for selection you must have a JD from an appropriate university, have been called to the bar of one of the provincial/territorial law societies and meet basic recruitment medical standards.

 :cheers:


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## adhowe

Hi winds, FJAG,

Thank you both for the very helpful information.

Quick question - Through the direct entry stream, do Legal O’s still need to sit an aptitude test? Kind of seems a bit redundant. 

I won’t be applying until 2021 seeing as I still need to become a citizen. Currently only a PR, but called to the Ontario bar. I may do the reserves first unless I can switch my current practice area.


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## FJAG

adhowe said:
			
		

> Hi winds, FJAG,
> 
> Thank you both for the very helpful information.
> 
> Quick question - Through the direct entry stream, do Legal O’s still need to sit an aptitude test? Kind of seems a bit redundant.
> 
> I won’t be applying until 2021 seeing as I still need to become a citizen. Currently only a PR, but called to the Ontario bar. I may do the reserves first unless I can switch my current practice area.



Citizenship is also a prerequisite. Not sure about the aptitude test but you're right, it sounds a bit redundant.

Here's a link to the recruiting site re legal officers:

https://forces.ca/en/career/legal-officer/

 :cheers:


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## winds_13

adhowe, yes you will need to write the aptitude test (CFAT). I recommend studying as it is likely used as one of the factors to compare DEO applicants... it is certainly still one of the factors used to compare Military Legal Training Plan (MLTP) applicants.


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## adhowe

Thanks! 

Out of curiosity, do you know if Legal O positions are competitive in the CAF?


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## winds_13

adhowe, I believe it has already been said multiple times in this thread but positions for Legal Officer in the CAF are, typically, extremely competitive. In Fiscal Year (FY) 2019/2020 year we hired 9 new Legal Officers (DEO) and received over 300 applications. As of right now, there are no positions available for DEO Legal Officer for FY 2020/2021.


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## csers

winds_13 said:
			
		

> adhowe, I believe it has already been said multiple times in this thread but positions for Legal Officer in the CAF are, typically, extremely competitive. In Fiscal Year (FY) 2019/2020 year we hired 9 new Legal Officers (DEO) and received over 300 applications. As of right now, there are no positions available for DEO Legal Officer for FY 2020/2021.




I was hoping that the moderators were right when they told me I was wrong about recruiting not resuming next fiscal, but sadly, that was not the case. I was one of the ones caught by the freeze  :cold:- my CV was retained for review in June  I have been offered another position, but I can't imagine re-enlisting for anything other than Legal  :not-again: rly:


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## ensemblons

FJAG said:


> "Prior military experience and second language capabilities are highly desirable and can greatly increase competitive standing.
> Any military service, including reserve service, is useful but experience as a commissioned officer is preferable."



Almost 12 years in the CF in total between reserve infantry soldier, infantry officer (injured in phase 2 training and transferred to what used to be called a Maritime Surface/Subsurface Officer).  I released in 2012 to attend law school and had hoped to re-enter as a legal officer and my application was not successful.  I was told that my experience did not matter when faced with other civilian applicants with Masters degrees and PhD's.  Very very sad to learn that. 

I'd like to apply again but I still don't have a Masters and even though I have some funds available through VA to go back to school, I can't afford to go back to school because of the student debt I incurred while paying for law school on my own after releasing lol.  Perhaps someone here knows if the situation has changed?  

Does anyone know where I would apply for a reserve legal officer position in BC?


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## csers

ensemblons said:


> Almost 12 years in the CF in total between reserve infantry soldier, infantry officer (injured in phase 2 training and transferred to what used to be called a Maritime Surface/Subsurface Officer).  I released in 2012 to attend law school and had hoped to re-enter as a legal officer and my application was not successful.  I was told that my experience did not matter when faced with other civilian applicants with Masters degrees and PhD's.  Very very sad to learn that.
> 
> I'd like to apply again but I still don't have a Masters and even though I have some funds available through VA to go back to school, I can't afford to go back to school because of the student debt I incurred while paying for law school on my own after releasing lol.  Perhaps someone here knows if the situation has changed?
> 
> Does anyone know where I would apply for a reserve legal officer position in BC?


Malahat or Discovery, I would assume, if you were still intending to stay navy; I'm not sure what other PRes units are in BC... 

However, who told you you weren't competitive? Reapply... I know a number of people who had to reapply more than once before they were successful. Personally, I applied in 2016 and just reached the interview stage, also a former PRes MARS O. If it's what you want, keep going!


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## ensemblons

csers said:


> Malahat or Discovery, I would assume, if you were still intending to stay navy; I'm not sure what other PRes units are in BC...
> 
> However, who told you you weren't competitive? Reapply... I know a number of people who had to reapply more than once before they were successful. Personally, I applied in 2016 and just reached the interview stage, also a former PRes MARS O. If it's what you want, keep going!


I don't remember who I spoke with but it was a female LCdr I think.  I wasn't told I wasn't competitive, I was told that because the other applicants had masters or PhD's, that my application was passed up that round.  I was encouraged to apply again in the future.  I think I applied in 2016/2017 and then it became less of a priority as my career developed.  I'm happy now and have my own practice but I really miss the CF and my goal was always to be a JAG from the day I enrolled as a Private in the Westies ages ago.


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## FJAG

ensemblons said:


> Almost 12 years in the CF in total between reserve infantry soldier, infantry officer (injured in phase 2 training and transferred to what used to be called a Maritime Surface/Subsurface Officer).  I released in 2012 to attend law school and had hoped to re-enter as a legal officer and my application was not successful.  I was told that my experience did not matter when faced with other civilian applicants with Masters degrees and PhD's.  Very very sad to learn that.
> 
> I'd like to apply again but I still don't have a Masters and even though I have some funds available through VA to go back to school, I can't afford to go back to school because of the student debt I incurred while paying for law school on my own after releasing lol.  Perhaps someone here knows if the situation has changed?
> 
> Does anyone know where I would apply for a reserve legal officer position in BC?


It's been 13 years since I retired from the CAF and the legal branch so things might have changed, but we received very few applicants with Masters in Law and none with PhDs in my day. 

Applying as a reserve force legal officer is the same as any other officer position and is done through your local recruiter. You might wish to contact the Assistant Judge Advocate General office in Victoria (PO Box 17000 Station Forces, Victoria BC V9A 7N2 (250) 363-4260) and find out if there is a vacancy available. Unlike RegF legal officers, ResF legal officers are recruited against vacancies with the regional AJAG office. It may also be possible to get a ResF legal officer position with the office of the Director of Military Prosecutions or the office of the Director of Defence Counsel Services. The local AJAG office should be able to advise you if regional vacancies exist or direct you to DMP or DDCS.

🍻


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## csers

ensemblons said:


> I don't remember who I spoke with but it was a female LCdr I think.  I wasn't told I wasn't competitive, I was told that because the other applicants had masters or PhD's, that my application was passed up that round.  I was encouraged to apply again in the future.  I think I applied in 2016/2017 and then it became less of a priority as my career developed.  I'm happy now and have my own practice but I really miss the CF and my goal was always to be a JAG from the day I enrolled as a Private in the Westies ages ago.


I don't have a master's or PhD but I do have significant management/real life experience, so maybe that was a factor? Now I'm in limbo while I wait for them to send me my PFO  

I did my interview the day after I got out of isolation from covid, and spacy, covid brain was a real thing. Definitely wasn't my best interview, but they were lovely to interact with. If I'm not successful this round, I'll look at PRes opportunities, too. Much like you, I think I have something to bring to the table, and I'd  like to serve again - they are undergoing significant change that can refine the CAF going forward, and that is so exciting! That said, if you are keen, reapply, reapply, reapply


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