# Royal Canadian Navy, coast guard short hundreds of sailors



## OceanBonfire (29 Feb 2020)

> _Lee Berthiaume
> The Canadian Press_
> 
> 
> ...


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## Colin Parkinson (29 Feb 2020)

Well 100% of the sea going personal suffered Phoenix related pay issues from what I have heard, partly as they did not comprehend the Layday system into program. Most of the ships are old, they didn't promote people unless they went through the college, etc. A lot of things went wrong, most of them similar to the problems facing the Civil Service. Coupled with a general shortage of tickets across the marine industry, a master, Mate or Engineer could easily find better paying work, with less paperwork and higher chance of being paid properly. TC is also short of Marine Inspectors.


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## Czech_pivo (29 Feb 2020)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Well 100% of the sea going personal suffered Phoenix related pay issues from what I have heard, partly as they did not comprehend the Layday system into program. Most of the ships are old, they didn't promote people unless they went through the college, etc. A lot of things went wrong, most of them similar to the problems facing the Civil Service. Coupled with a general shortage of tickets across the marine industry, a master, Mate or Engineer could easily find better paying work, with less paperwork and higher chance of being paid properly. TC is also short of Marine Inspectors.



So this fall into the category that I’ve brought up before - Canadians are the cheapest SOB’s out there - just pay these people what they are worth, if the private sector offers higher wages, then follow suit.


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## dimsum (29 Feb 2020)

Czech_pivo said:
			
		

> So this fall into the category that I’ve brought up before - Canadians are the cheapest SOB’s out there - just pay these people what they are worth, if the private sector offers higher wages, then follow suit.



I'm sure someone will correct me, but our pay (and the CCG's pay) isn't set by us.


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## Czech_pivo (29 Feb 2020)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I'm sure someone will correct me, but our pay (and the CCG's pay) isn't set by us.



I know, it’s set by GoC, the people who manage to screw up the simplest of things


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## CBH99 (29 Feb 2020)

Correct me if I'm wrong...

I was under the impression that salaries for CAF personnel were pretty high compared to other NATO countries?  

So is it a matter of our salaries not being competitive with the private sector, especially in regards to naval skill-sets?  Is it a general lack of interest from Canadians, as most Canadians don't live with much exposure to either ocean?  Is it an overly complicated recruiting process?


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Mar 2020)

Government can't respond quick enough to industry trends, then there is that sticky thing about contracts. Previously the deal was that government paid less than industry, but offered stability, decent benefits and a good pension. The stability, benefits and pension have been eroded, coupled with all the IT failures and failures to reinvest in the fleet, of course people walk. Canadian Merchant Officers have a good rep and can get good jobs overseas.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Mar 2020)

I live in a Navy town.

I’m in the Army, but there you go.

If I did not attend the Remembrance Day service at the cenotaph there is no way I would realize that we have naval personnel in town.

If nothing else, we need to get better at letting Canadians know that our Navy needs them. And that we have a Navy.


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## Halifax Tar (1 Mar 2020)

I cannot speak fort the CCG. 

As for what I see at my level in the RCN, in a sea going position, on my 2nd 6-7 month deployment in 3 years.  We are hamstrung by the policies that are in place to help and assist those sailors who are in need.  We have huge amounts of personnel who are tying up shore billets and ruining what was a descent sea to shore ratio for posting cycles.  And this only exacerbates the problem as those we have left as healthy, simply break down and add to the masses.  We may be 850 short but I wll bet we are double that in pers on unfit sea MELs. 

Personnel management and trade amalgamations has hurt us a ton.  We have seen allot of good people with decades of trade knowledge walk away.  And get scooped up by industry. 

Quality of life at sea.  There simply isn’t any.  And the remuneration for that hardship (SDA) isn’t worth it to many.  I recently completed a survey on QOL for the new T26's we are planning on building.  My big point was privacy.  To quantify my position I have 6 years field time as well.  Never once in the field did I wake up and question my life’s choices, every day at sea I do; and I am PO1 imagine what the MS and below are thinking. 

Pay.  Why am I making the same +SDA as the PO1 in Halifax who is unfit, and has less responsibility in their job?  I know the journey program is supposed to address that. 

Officer and NCM relationship.  This needs to be investigated and fast.  I am seeing a huge divide start to broaden across the fleet and this will not help the RCN in it manning issues.  And I place the blame squarely at "Succession Management", "Institutional Leadership by CPO1s" and the removing of CPO1s from the trades.


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## NavyShooter (1 Mar 2020)

Well said.  I am one of those with decades of experience that walked away.

I could not see the benefit of spending 2 years on a HR unit, expecting 200+ days a way per year, then 3 years at ST(A) with 250+ days away a year....that was my next 5 years.  My eldest is 16 - she'd have been 21 and moved out by the time I got back from those two 'adventures'.  

The amalgamations staved off some problems, and created a host more - I tried proposing solutions, but was roundly ignored, and so was left with the spectre of trying to argue against a system I did not support - while on a ship at sea supporting that system.

The time was right for me, and the opportunity was right.  I have done multiple overseas deployments in my time, I've responded on short notice (26 hours notice for a 6 month trip to Libya) so I've done the business, and done it well.  I moved on before I got bitter, and now I'm in a better place. 

The Navy....needs to think about how they do things.  200 years of tradition unmarred by modern technology is more than just a saying...watching 4 people manning lines on a cruise ship to bring it alongside where the navy would have over 20 people.  Seeing a bridge with 5 people on it at sea instead of 35.  The navy isn't good at change, and the change it does make doesn't always fix the real problems.

Well said Tar.  Look me up for a coffee when you get home...if there's anything you need, shoot me an email and I'll see what I can do to help.


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## Lumber (1 Mar 2020)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Officer and NCM relationship.  This needs to be investigated and fast.  I am seeing a huge divide start to broaden across the fleet and this will not help the RCN in it manning issues.  And I place the blame squarely at "Succession Management", "Institutional Leadership by CPO1s" and the removing of CPO1s from the trades.



Can you elaborate on this? What's the divide and how is it broadening?


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## dapaterson (1 Mar 2020)

Read the Mainguy report...


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## daftandbarmy (1 Mar 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate on this? What's the divide and how is it broadening?



FWIW.....

I know three NCOs in the RCN (two POs and one, a very experienced Stoker who was being lined up for his third stripe, who left after 10 years and joined a big company where he is doing very well) well enough to BS over beers occasionally. They all love/loved their jobs, have lots of sea time and are experts in their fields, and ooze leadership and all that stuff you'd generally expect from good people. All three have young families.

The overall impression I get is that MARS Officers (and they used this term specifically) in general are aliens from another planet when it comes to treating people like, well, people and not a faceless cog in a machine. They shared a few examples with me that left my mouth hanging open, and not just because I was ready for another beer. Sea time away from the family? Apparently a minor irritant in comparison with the relationship that their own Officers have with them, and vice versa.

They point to the few Army and Air Force Officers/NCMs they've come across as wayyyyy better at that stuff, 'they even remember your name' was one comment I recall, which is scary in it's own right, but there you go.


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## Journeyman (1 Mar 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Read the Mainguy report...


… but read it along with Rich Gimblett's Dissension in the ranks: the ‘mutinies’ that never were.


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## dapaterson (1 Mar 2020)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> … but read it along with Rich Gimblett's Dissension in the ranks: the ‘mutinies’ that never were.


Ah yes, the apologia for the RCN's officer corps failings.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (1 Mar 2020)

And complete the whole exercise by also reading Chapter 13 of RCN in Retrospect, 1910-1968, ed. James A. Bouthillier, U.B.C., 1982, titled "_The lower deck and the Mainguy report_", written by L.C. Audette - one of the three commissioner of the Mainguy commission.

It does talk of the relationship between officers and ratings in ways not covered by the actual report, and addresses issues not far remote from today's issues.

As a sampling: dealing with the matter of Welfare Committee not being set up IAW rules and regulations for weak reasons in all ships that suffered incident, Audette states that: "It never seems to have occurred to the officers involved that their own defiance of orders led their men ineluctably down the path towards collective insubordination." He later states: "What most surprised the three commissioners was the curious abandon with which the permanent force officer could disobey orders which they deemed undesirable, an unexpected characteristic which was displayed right to the very top."

Sounds familiar (not in relation to welfare committees necessarily) - smoking in the wardroom anyone?

Also, Audette picks on something that could still be true today (I have been out too long to know for sure) but was the case in my days, still: "There had been evidence which made me question the existing situation where alcoholic drink was available to both officers and men, though under different conditions of issue." [my underlining]

Again, sounds familiar?


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## garb811 (1 Mar 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate on this? What's the divide and how is it broadening?


This is the problem, the people at the top of the divide just don't get it, because they are the ones who are benefiting from it.

I was posted to a navy base for 4 years, well into my career. The gulf between the Officers - Chiefs and POs - Jr Ranks of the RCN was astonishing and something I had never experienced before.  The fact that the Officers were oblivious to it, or maybe it was they just didn't care, I just couldn't understand.  I re-kindled a friendship with a Cdr who I had known early in my career and spoke to him a few times about what I was hearing from folks I was interacting with and, although he's a great guy, he just couldn't grasp what I was telling him and the effects it was having on morale and, in the end, retention. 

It permeated everything. Culture, the way people were treated, selective interpretation and/or enforcement of policies depending on the rank involved, the sense of entitlement... 

The worst part was what was going on had trickled down to the Chiefs and POs and they had adopted many of the same behaviours and habits. End result was the lower-deckers were miserable and, although they had no hesitation in expressing that to anyone who would listen, none of the people who really mattered ever really "heard" what they were saying.  The number of times I had a Chief tell me that what they were doing to the killicks was ok because that was what they had to go through on their way up was sickening.

Throughout my career I've been posted to the CA, the RCN, the RCAF, NDHQ and seconded to DFAIT. Nowhere have I ever seen the dysfunction and disconnect between the various messes than I have while serving with the navy.


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## dapaterson (1 Mar 2020)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Throughout my career I've been posted to the CA, the RCN, the RCAF, NDHQ and seconded to DFAIT. Nowhere have I ever seen the dysfunction and disconnect between the various messes than I have while serving with the navy.



And the Navy has retention and recruiting problems.  Almost as if there's a relationship between the two...

One could also note that only 1:8 hard sea trade personnel are Francophone, where Canada's population is 1:4 Francophone.  Imagine if the RCN tried to create the possibility of careers for Francophone sailors (and their families) - that's a big chunk of the current personnel deficit, right there.


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## MarkOttawa (1 Mar 2020)

A friend observes: "There are time-honoured solutions to this problem"






Mark
Ottawa


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## MJP (1 Mar 2020)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> As for what I see at my level in the RCN, in a sea going position, on my 2nd 6-7 month deployment in 3 years.  We are hamstrung by the policies that are in place to help and assist those sailors who are in need.  We have huge amounts of personnel who are tying up shore billets and ruining what was a descent sea to shore ratio for posting cycles.  And this only exacerbates the problem as those we have left as healthy, simply break down and add to the masses.  We may be 850 short but I wll bet we are double that in pers on unfit sea MELs.
> 
> Pay.  Why am I making the same +SDA as the PO1 in Halifax who is unfit, and has less responsibility in their job?  I know the journey program is supposed to address that.



The medical issue/unfit environment is something the CA struggles with, or at least on the CSS side of the house but it sounds like anecdotally it is affecting the other line units.  The effect  for us is that we a have number of smaller trades whose members (Ammo Tech, Cook, Traffic Tech) now have to take on a larger share of the field, taskings and deployment, stressing them further and eventually they are not deployable thus feeding the cycle 

Not a medical expert so I can't comment on if the increases are that we are getting better at helping those with issues on the physical and mental domains, people know and understand the system better, and/or some combination of factors that are causing this shift.  All I know is it is hard for those that are healthy to continually pick up the slack.


On the pay side I thought the RCN was pretty good at ceasing SDA for those that are unfit sea once they hit the 181 day threshold? We have a decent process within our unit but it is something the rest of our close 1st line units struggle with.  They equate taking away away LDA differently than we do likely because they have no institutional functions (other than made up internal ones) that they can place soldiers into where it is clear they have no entitlement to LDA.  I find overall LDA/SDA is a irritant that causes issues as it is all means all allowance, easy to administers, nightmare to takeaway. I wonder if going away current schema to one where you get a "superallowance" when you do the job in the manner it was intended. Likely a discussion for another thread cause I don't think this is the driving issue for the RCN just my Sunday musings


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## Halifax Tar (1 Mar 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> Can you elaborate on this? What's the divide and how is it broadening?



Not on this open source I wont.  Also those above this post are doing a fine job of summing things up. 

I want to clarify this is not mutiny I am talking about, its people having enough and walking away.  And I cannot balme them.


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## Lumber (1 Mar 2020)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> They shared a few examples with me that left my mouth hanging open, and not just because I was ready for another beer.



Any chance you cooked share those stories? I'm always interested in bad examples to avoid.


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## Lumber (1 Mar 2020)

garb811 said:
			
		

> This is the problem, the people at the top of the divide just don't get it, because they are the ones who are benefiting from it.



I'm still not clear what the specific divide is that people are talking about. I'm not trying to be argumentative ror obtuse, I'm just trying to see the perspective that apparently I'm obvious to.


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## garb811 (1 Mar 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> I'm still not clear what the specific divide is that people are talking about. I'm not trying to be argumentative ror obtuse, I'm just trying to see the perspective that apparently I'm obvious to.


Hmm...how to put it. 

The RCN "experience" is very much influenced by your rank and mess.  If you are an Officer, your "experience" is night and day compared to what an OS/LS has. While this is true across the board, the divide between those experiences in the navy is massive. And it all boils down to how the Jr folks are treated.

It's like the difference between being a passenger on a cruise ship compared to a crew member. Both are on the same ship, going to the same places, but both have very different views on what that experience really is.

I'm not saying that officers don't work and don't work hard. I'm not saying the same thing about the Chiefs and POs either. The simple fact is, in general, one group is treated as the crew on the cruise ship, the others expect to be treated as the paying passengers.


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## dimsum (1 Mar 2020)

Lumber said:
			
		

> I'm still not clear what the specific divide is that people are talking about. I'm not trying to be argumentative ror obtuse, I'm just trying to see the perspective that apparently I'm obvious to.



I think garb hit it right on the head, and that's from experience.  It was a shock when I switched over to the RCAF and seeing how people treat each other, even little things like instructors using your first name instead of 2LT so-and-so, and I really think that the "first name basis" stereotype (which is really only aircrew and select maintainers) has some merit in changing the culture.  

It's not an exact analogy, but I worked with USN folks on exercise and after a while, I asked them (equivalent to Cpl) what their first names were b/c I was getting sick of calling them by their rank in what was essentially an office.  They, and the USN LT I was working with, looked at me like I had three heads.

I also think it's not something that can be really "explained", but more "experienced".  I think it's one of those things where you just have to go to a squadron (especially one with NCM aircrew, like an LRP, MH, SAR, or Transport squadron) for a bit to see the subtle differences from a ship.


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## PuckChaser (1 Mar 2020)

So the RCN needs an Undercover Boss episode or 3?


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## MilEME09 (1 Mar 2020)

With such a large amount needed, realistically how long would it take to train that many? I also do not think enough is invested in recruiting strategies, clearly efforts to show canadians the navy, and the forces as a whole as a viable option


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## daftandbarmy (1 Mar 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> So the RCN needs an Undercover Boss episode or 3?



Or a 'Brubaker' program  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX3KEHfCleg


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## Lumber (1 Mar 2020)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Hmm...how to put it.





			
				Dimsum said:
			
		

> I think garb hit it right on the head, and that's from experience.



Thanks, guys, I definitely get what you're saying now.

I'd still be more interested in some concrete examples so that I can try and fix the situations when I come across them, but some of the things I can think of are just so institutionalize in not sure how you would change them. 

Since I believe in putting up our shutting up, I'll provide a couple examples of my own of what I think you guys are talking about... 

Actually, after making the list, it's kind of scary, and potentially incriminating (for officers in general, not me specifically) so I deleted it. 

Here's a more tame one: officers cabins don't get inspected on nightly rounds while at sea, and holy hell some of them should be.


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## Furniture (2 Mar 2020)

Any of you knowledgeable folks out on the left coast know where someone should start looking for job opportunities in the maritime world? Particularly if they were thinking of retiring from the CAF to be out there in summer/fall 2021? 

I'd consider the RCN, but my trade is red, and after 800 days at sea I have little interest in being a Jr rank on ship. (I like chairs with a back while I eat)


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## daftandbarmy (2 Mar 2020)

Furniture said:
			
		

> Any of you knowledgeable folks out on the left coast know where someone should start looking for job opportunities in the maritime world? Particularly if they were thinking of retiring from the CAF to be out there in summer/fall 2021?
> 
> I'd consider the RCN, but my trade is red, and after 800 days at sea I have little interest in being a Jr rank on ship. (I like chairs with a back while I eat)



Seaspan: https://www.seaspan.com/careers


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Mar 2020)

Offshoot of Seaspan and combined with the Haisla to provide escort and docking tugs for LNGC Canada

https://www.supplychainconnector.ca/haisea-marine-service-ltd-1323

these guys are always looking http://wcmrc.com/ Starting wage for a deckhand is $28 an hour apparently.


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## FSTO (2 Mar 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And the Navy has retention and recruiting problems.  Almost as if there's a relationship between the two...
> 
> One could also note that only 1:8 hard sea trade personnel are Francophone, where Canada's population is 1:4 Francophone.  Imagine if the RCN tried to create the possibility of careers for Francophone sailors (and their families) - that's a big chunk of the current personnel deficit, right there.


Not trying to be flippant here but your idea of setting up another base in Quebec is just not in the cards in the foreseeable future if ever. Cripes the entire RCN is barely hanging on with its fingernails as it is without the added IE and Personnel expenses of a massively expanded Dockyard VDQ.


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## Cloud Cover (3 Mar 2020)

FSTO: for all the reasons you note, don’t those pretty much guarantee a whopping expensive base in Quebec? No cost is too small....


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## Journeyman (3 Mar 2020)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Not trying to be flippant here but your idea of setting up another base in Quebec is just not in the cards in the foreseeable future if ever. Cripes the entire RCN is barely hanging on with its fingernails as it is without the added IE and Personnel expenses of a massively expanded Dockyard VDQ.


I defy anyone to show a rational _fiscal_  reason for reopening CMR, yet it occurred.  If this COA had a similarly ardent/connected campaigner as CMR had, expenses may magically become a minor irritant for VDQ expansion.

Focus on the operational requirements -- you know, patrolling the St Lawrence for U-Boats or keeping Wolfe and his ilk from scaling the cliffs to les Plaines d'Abraham.   :nod:


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## dapaterson (3 Mar 2020)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I defy anyone to show a rational _fiscal_  reason for reopening CMR, yet it occurred.  If this COA had a similarly ardent/connected campaigner as CMR had, expenses may magically become a minor irritant for VDQ expansion.
> 
> Focus on the operational requirements -- you know, patrolling the St Lawrence for U-Boats or keeping Wolfe and his ilk from scaling the cliffs to les Plaines d'Abraham.   :nod:



Or on creating the environment to attract and retain talent from 25% of Canada's population, to be better able to sustain the Navy.

But new bling for uniforms is easier, and clearly has solved the RCN's manning problems...


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## NavyShooter (3 Mar 2020)

Ah, bling + amalgamation...the panacea for the masses.


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## Furniture (3 Mar 2020)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Or on creating the environment to attract and retain talent from 25% of Canada's population, to be better able to sustain the Navy.
> 
> But new bling for uniforms is easier, and clearly has solved the RCN's manning problems...



Alternatively, it might create a major retention issue when the hopped for francophones don't join, or get posted elsewhere. Potentially resulting in the anglophones who get posted there deciding to release due to family concerns, and/or high taxes.


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