# Is the CAF as diversified as canada is?



## jimiscanadian (29 Oct 2000)

Living here in Toronto, I see lots of faces from all over the world here now. My question is this; Is the CAF as diversified in it‘s recruiting, or is it as white and male as it ever was. Secondly, what changes have shown up as a result of non-traditional recruiting, such as different foods being available in the cafeteria, no pork, no fish, vegetarian, for example. What about the need to accomodate different religious practices, or prayer times. Or has the multi-cultural bandwagon failed to stop at the CAF‘s door? Comments, please, and yes this was partly written in jest, but I am still curious to see what impact the changing "complexion" of Canada has had in the forces. JIM BUNTING


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## the patriot (29 Oct 2000)

The Canadian Armed Forces has always been an equal opportunity employer.  As for the "white male" comment.  There is plenty of diversity among the ranks of the military without the need for a quota.  Whoever walks into a recruiting centre is more than welcome to go through the motions of the enlisting process regardless of their gender, race, or sexual orientation.  With respect to different food on the menus and respect for other religious beliefs.  Those needs are accomodated and are not something that NCO‘s and officers make fun of their troops for.  In jest, the typical "white male" blows his paycheque on strippers and Labbatt 50, and has no front teeth.  Get thee to a trailer park.

-the patriot-


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## the patriot (29 Oct 2000)

So yes, the military is as diversified as the rest of Canada is.  It has been as such, without the political tinkering of government affirmative action programs and preferential treatment to women; which has been the case in the civillian realm of things.  

-the patriot-


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## bossi (30 Oct 2000)

Come on down to any parade night at a Toronto militia unit, and you‘ll see a GREAT cross-section of Canadian society (as it exists in Toronto, at least).  You want to see diversity?  Then come and see the array of skin colours wearing the kilt!

The "social scientists" often fail to take into account the societal pressures existing outside the CF sphere of influence (basically, the fact is there are some circles which look down upon the military, and therefore their youngsters are not encouraged to join - is this the fault of the CF?  Absolutely not!  Accordingly, the CF should not be misemployed as the petri dish is social evolution, in my humble, personal opinion).  The CF is not the problem.

I‘m much more supportive of gradual change, according to the natural influences of Canadian society as it evolves naturally.  Furthermore, I view it as damaging when the CF has things shoved down its throat unfairly.

Besides, I‘m always fond (and proud) of the expression:  "There‘s only one colour of blood in this regiment, and that‘s Davidson tartan!"

Dileas Gu Brath


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## bossi (30 Oct 2000)

My goodness - as if to prove my point (regarding external, societal pressures), lo and behold - the Times published this article today:


Managers too busy to be TA officers 

BY MICHAEL EVANS DEFENCE EDITOR 

THE Territorial Army, already suffering from a general recruiting problem, is desperately short of young officers, according to the latest figures. 
Two-week courses for officer cadets at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst meant to cater for 300 a year are less than half-filled. 

Part of the problem, TA sources said yesterday, was that men and women starting careers after leaving university were working such long hours in junior management they did not have time to consider joining the Territorials. 

The TA has faced such disruption in recent years, after defence cuts, that the officer shortage is one of a number of problems still unresolved. There is also a shortage of 2,000 doctors and nurses. 

Under the Governmentâ€™s Strategic Defence Review of 1998, the TA was given a greater opportunity to serve with the Regular Army. This has led to an increase in TA members serving in Bosnia (5,300 since 1995) and Kosovo (280), but there are still not enough volunteers to take on leadership roles. 

Sources at the Territorial Auxiliary and Volunteer Reserve Association, which oversees the TA, said: â€œWe may have ended up with a TA which is perceived as being not worth joining.â€


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## bossi (30 Oct 2000)

(and, from the Times of India ...)

They too died fighting, Britain admits 
By Shyam Bhatia

LONDON: The Hindu, Muslim, Sikh and Buddhist faiths are to be represented for the first time at the annual Remembrance Day ceremony led by Britain‘s Queen Elizabeth II at London‘s Cenotaph.

London‘s Sunday Times newspaper says the change in religious representation has been sanctioned by Home Secretary Jack Straw and is meant to recognize the contribution of non-Christians who fought for Britain in two World Wars. 

It notes that more than three million Indians were mobilized in the two wars in which the Indian Army fatalities were 166,000. In 1914 Indian troops were mobilized so quickly that they arrived in France still dressed in tropical gear.

The ceremony takes place every November 11 in front of a monument designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens and dedicated to all the war dead of the Commonwealth.Besides the changeover to a multi faith ceremony, the Queen has also agreed to an amendment in the lead up to the main prayer. Instead of a prayer just for "those who have died in the service of their country," the words "and of the Crown" will be added to honor the contribution of the troops from South Asia.

The decision to involve non-Christian religions in such an important annual event is a huge change for a country that is aggressive about its Christian heritage and usually indifferent about other religions.

During the Falklands War less than 20 years ago there was a furore over the issue of whether the family of the only ethnic Indian officer killed, Lieutenant Ram, was entitled to ask for his body to be brought back for cremation.

The Remembrance Day changes have been instigated by a former House of Commons Speaker, Lord Weatherill, who served with the Indian Army in the Second World War.

In his letter to the Home Secretary, Lord Weatherill is quoted as saying, "I am in close touch with the Indian and Pakistani community who feel very strongly that the contribution of their forebears has never been adequately understood or appreciated.(IANS)
- 30 -


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## JRMACDONALD (30 Oct 2000)

The impact is politically generated, so our CF can reflect the success of our "wonderful "country. The CF does not care where the recruit comes from, as long as he/she wishes to serve. 
I feel the biggest block to recruitment of "new canadians/ ethnic minorities, et al" so desperately being targetted by recruiters, is they, generally, hail from countries where military service is not regarded so highly.( it is an arm of the government, usually, deployed against the people.)
I see no difficulty on the drill hall floor, BOSSI‘s 2nd post is right!( the only skin color is Tartan!)
( I have all my teeth)(front ones ,anyway!) (gave up drinking 50 decades ago)( moved out of the trailer park, awhile ago, new place is closer to the strippers!)


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## Master Blaster (30 Oct 2000)

There is but one colour in my Regiment; Green!  With the exception of Regimental parades (where it is that the tartan is the uniform of the day) the uniform most worn by all ranks and corps is the Green CF combat dress.  Headress not withstanding, it is impossible at a distance to tell the soldier, seaman and airman apart let alone his/her race, creed or colour, sexual orientation, religion or anything else for that matter.

A soldier in the CF is nothing more or less than the best that money can buy.  You would be hard pressed to find a more diverse organization anywhere on this planet that represents the cultural diversity in the manner of the CF.

I do not happen to agree with some of this but I am a Canadian soldier and it is my duty to see that the policies of my superiors are met and at the same time conduct the business of soldiering to the best of my abilities.  That‘s what sets us apart from the rest of the world.

All the best

Dileas Gu Brath


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## jimiscanadian (31 Oct 2000)

Good grief, some of this is so PC as to be unreal. Any way, here is my supplemental  question. If Canada were placed in the same position as she was in 1939,(the need to raise a large army, with the time to train it before going into action) what would that force look like? I think it would be overwhelmingly Anglo and caucasion, with few of the "New Canadians" being represented at all. I base this opinion on my observation that the one thing that most New Canadians keep when they come to Canada is the passport from their previous homeland, so that when things take a turn for the worse here, they can bail out, and go "home". The last thing they would do is volunteer to risk their lives for their "new" country.

On the other hand, those of us who were born here don‘t have that option, do we? I wish someone would stand up and point out to the newcomers that in all the unit photos from WW2 I have yet to see any Canadian soldiers, airmen, or sailors who were wearing turbans, or carrying kirpans. The assumption now seems to be that Canada was allways a "multicultural" society, but we know that just is not so. Read the names from the cemetaries in Italy, France, Belgium, Holland, and Hong Kong where Canadians are buried, and you will see that they were mostly Anglo, some French, some Ukrainian, some Poles, some Native, but no Chinese, no Hindus, no Sikhs, no Sre Lankins, no Jamaicans.  But of course, to the newcomers, that doesn‘t matter, because that was then and this is now. But, if the excrement hits the air-movement device again, and this country calls on her youth for service, I expect to hear a very large sucking sound from the exit doors at Pearson International.


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## bossi (31 Oct 2000)

Well, I can not speak for anybody except myself, but on behalf of my Italian grandfather and the score of ethnic backgrounds I‘ve served alongside (a quick survey of my Regiment recently counted 18 religions, and we ALL go to church parade together).

I pointedly suggest your post does a great disservice to all second generation Canadians (it‘s commonly accepted that it takes an entire generation before assimilation really begins).

As to your remarks about Canadian headstones and historical photographs, I would counter by stating simply that they do indeed reflect Canada‘s cultural mosiac (and dress regulations) AT THAT POINT IN TIME.  Furthermore, there‘s no need to slag off any particular minority group - many fought and died in the Second World War wearing the uniform of their homeland, on the same side as Canada (and, I‘ve met many commissionaires who served in Commonwealth forces, and have more experience with "pop-up, shoot-back, live targets" than the vast majority of the CF).  

By the way - I was in recruiting at the time of the Gulf War, and you‘d be interested to know a number of RMC applicants withdrew their applications when the shooting war began - and, a navy steward was quoted in the newspapers as saying he/she "... didn‘t join the navy to go to war ..." (hmmm ... so, why did they join?)

When the shooting was over, some of the erstwhile RMC applicants had the unmitigated nerve to resubmit their applications - I sincerely hope they were rejected - we don‘t need "their kind" in our army (and I especially don‘t want any of that type covering my derriere if I were ever to be under effective enemy fire ...).

Oh, did I mention - the people who withdrew their RMC applications when the Gulf War started?  Canadians, born and raised here (hmmm ... I guess that yellow streak crosses cultural boundaries, eh?)

As to who might sign up if hostilities threatened again, may I suggest history would repeat itself to a large degree.  Some would join out of patriotism, some (foolishly) for adventure, others simply because they perceived it as "the right thing to do", and some would join simply to get three squares a day and a paycheque.  Depending on the circumstances, some "new" Canadians might join if Canada were defending their ancestral homeland (hmmm ... deja vu, eh?)

Finally, please don‘t ever personally accuse me of being politically correct - I don‘t deserve that insult (my last promotion was in 1984, largely because I speak my mind instead of biding my tongue).

Dileas Gu Brath


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## JRMACDONALD (31 Oct 2000)

Bossi- Gotta back you up on the last one. Saw one or two gulf war"re-evaluations of motivation", when stationed in Europe. (not "new canadians")
jimiscanadian- seems to me, you need to go see a RegF/ Res F unit parading/training/playing. You might change your tone.
Oh yeah, those who know would not refer to me as PC!


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## Andyboy (31 Oct 2000)

In some of the earlier posts there were references stating in effect that the CF has not been touched by the hand og PC. I‘m afraid I have to disagree. First of all it used to be called Canadian Armed Forces, now it‘s the CF. Recruiting posters, pamphlets and videos are all now required to have female representation. Some units are required to be audited by the Language Police in terms of their treatment of French recruits. Infantryman was changed to Infanteer. The list goes on.

To say we are as diverse as the rest of Canadian culture is untrue...but so what? In some parts of Canada the majority of the population doesn‘t speak English or French. Is that what we want?


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## bossi (31 Oct 2000)

With regard to political correctness and its‘ effect upon the Canadian Army ...

First of all, I always hark back to something I was taught in a philosophy course at U of T, namely "laws are merely codification of society‘s morals".  In other words, laws are supposed to represent the reasonable consensus of societal opinion.

Personally, however, I do NOT believe political correctness is truly representative of reasonable consensus, and in some instances I would further submit that political correctness can be COMPLETELY DEVOID of common sense.

Thus, I bristle when I perceive political correctness being forced upon us, as opposed to doing what is morally, ethically, or intellectually "the right thing" (i.e. if the kinder, gentler name of "Canadian Forces" is deemed as politically correct, then it behooves us to refer to the Canadian military whenever possible, or better still, the  Navy, Army and Air Force - surely this terminology is accurate, truthful, and traditional, as well as being clearly understood by the general public).

I can‘t go much further in discussing my personal, avowed dislike of political correctness, since my ability to influence the outcome of this lamentable trend is miniscule - thus, I‘m not going to waste my energy banging my head against a brick wall, since I‘ve no desire to generate more angst, nor do I wish to unwittingly insult anybody.  Besides, sometimes the indirect approach pays more dividends.

Dileas Gu Brath


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## RCA (31 Oct 2000)

A couple of points - one it became the CF because of the amagemation of the military and civil heirarchies in the Dept of National Defence. And civvies aren‘t armed therefore the change. Next as to "New Canadians" bugging out in case of war. That is a big load of crap as I ever heard. Most would stay out of obligation to a country that has probably given them more oppurtunity then their former homeland. Unlike those born here they chose Canada and for that reason alone I know they would serve. (I immigtated here, and that is how I feel and I know I am not alone.) As for the anglo names at the war cemataries, go to Italy where you will find Hindu. Muslem names etc. (They may not have served for Canada )Don‘t forget that in 1939 Canada‘s immigration was more restrictive than it is now tilting in favor of WASPs and therefore less visable minorities were here to join. You don‘e see that many women‘s names, does that that mean they are less willing to fight also? As to PC if that means you can‘t pyhsiaclly or verbly abuse anyone than I guess thats me. I always thought it took away our professionalsim when witnessing someone sceaming at a subordinate just beacuse he had the power to do it.


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Nov 2000)

As for Chinese-Canadian participation in the Second World War, I recommend the book THE DRAGON AND THE MAPLE LEAF which discusses that point in detail.

As to what colour any future Active Service force would be - who really gives a shit?  No one here is "politically correct" as I have been reading their un-PC posts for ages now!  I think that term should finally be going the way of the dodo anyway.  What you have on this forum are morally conscious Canadian soldiers who have taken the responsiblity of watching for the welfare of others.  Period.

If you want to play race-games, Jimbo, I suggest you move back to Chicago.  As has been eloquently stated here, all I see in uniform is green (or tartan, as the occasion dictates).  I am reasonably sure I may speak for the majoority of my peers on that point.

And there were plenty of "visible minorities" in uniform in World War Two.  Try looking through something other than the Reader‘s Digest Condensed version of our war effort.

Kind regards,
Mike


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## jimiscanadian (1 Nov 2000)

Interesting comment about moving back to Chicago, seeing as I was born in West Toronto, near Runnymeade and Bloor, attended Humberside Collegiate, and now live in Mississauga. I have visited the windy city, and I didn‘t like it. My comments were my own point of view, bolstered by a life time of observation here in Toronto. There must be some mystical force that hangs around Moss Park, and makes all that enter there somehow better human beings, right MR Bossi?

Last promotion in 1984? Boy you must have really got on the wrong side of somebody....x


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Nov 2000)

My last promotion was in 1989, if that is also of interest to you. 

You may try to confuse the issue all you want with personal attacks, I don‘t think you‘re going to trick anyone into saying something racist (if that was your intent).  Like andybody said - who cares if we don‘t have an equal representation of every ethnic type, down to the 3/1000th percentile?  We don‘t have enough of anybody, white, black, or otherwise!  If you do live in Toronto, you would think you would have learned how to look past a person‘s colour.  How truly, truly sad for you.

If you find it hard to believe that the Canadian Army (not CF, please) actually helps people learn to be better human beings, I suggest you stop hanging out on Yonge Street "observing" and go down to recruiting - start "doing" instead of "looking".  

We‘ve had a number of "coloured" soldiers in my regiment here in Calgary and I have yet to hear a single racial epithet hurled (and this is the heart of so-called redneck country).  It ain‘t all peaches and cream - we have our share of morons in all rank categories, and the boys set to once in awhile, but race is not an issue.  Incompetence, thoughtlessness, lack of character and invisible personalities are all problems - but race isn‘t an issue!

Why make it one?


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## JRMACDONALD (2 Nov 2000)

Dorosh- you know me. ON TARGET. FIRE ALL GUNS!


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## jimiscanadian (2 Nov 2000)

Attention: M Dorosh. If your unit is such a model of co-operation between the different races that are a part of it, perhaps you can advise me where you find such people in the year 2000. Race is an issue in everyday life in Canada, outside of the Canadian Army, just listen to all the whineing from the visable minorities if they don‘t get preferential treatment in job placements. I don‘t see how the same attitude that is so pervasive in "civie street" is absent from the military, or do you have special pool of manpower that is unaffected by the multi-cult advocates. You know those nice folks who are "professionaly ethnic", and make a good living being offended by everything that Canada does, or stands for?

As for Yonge street, and hanging around there. I‘ll admit that I spent many hours on and around Yonge street, but it was as a part of my duties, and the Corporation of Metropolitan Toronto got good value for the money they paid me, and my partner. Thank goodness that I am now self-employed, and don‘t have to put up with the endless, mindless nonsense that you are faced with as apart of the biggest employer in the country, the federal government.x


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## Master Blaster (2 Nov 2000)

Jimi;  It‘s not difficult to see (even for the most obtuse of us) why you are no longer in the employ of the Corporation of Metropolitan Toronto.  If YOU want to make an issue of colour, creed race, religion, sexual orientation, hair colour, length, bredth, straightness, curliness or any other such nonsense YOU can and will (and evidentally have).  There are some of us that can‘t and won‘t because we see things in a different light than you do.

It‘s the light of reason and common sense.

I will not speak about what it takes to stuff a human beings‘ intestines back into what‘s left of his abdomen after being hit by a mortar (it isn‘t very pretty and the image still makes me sweat) but I can assure you that after seeing it you will have a full and complete knowledge of all that makes up the "human" in us has nothing to do with what‘s on the outside or what‘s inside our craniums...cause we all bleed with the same unerring volume as anyone else that has the misfortune to be punctured.  It doesn‘t matter that the guy beside you is white, hispanic, black, abo, kiwi or ausy...as long as he‘s as scared as you and shoots better than you when the s**t hits the fan, he is undoubtedly your new best friend.

I‘m sorry that you can not attain a level of acceptance that I have with your fellow men and women of this planet.  It does not bode well for our futures.

Dileas Gu Brath


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## Michael Dorosh (2 Nov 2000)

The people are there, Jim, they just have to be educated.  The Army has a zero tolerance policy against harassment and racism.  You can‘t tell people how to think, but you can tell them how to act.  And the army does, with SHARP and LDA training.

The civvie world is too liberal to allow for people being told how to act - it smacks of facsism, right?  Not so in the Army.

At my old civvie job at the bank, we had a woman who complained about "all the bloody Nips" that kept getting hired - I‘m not saying that doesn‘t exist in Alberta, of course it does.  She was well past military age, though - my father‘s generation had a very different view of the world.  Not that they should have - my family is Ukrainian, and Ukrainians at one time were "newcomers" to the Canadian cultural milieu just like Vietnamese and East Indians are today.  Ukrainian jokes were still common when I was growing up in the late 70s and early 80s.  Maybe it‘s even gotten my resume chucked in the garbage by some civvie firms - but it hasn‘t affected my military career.

One of our "coloured" soldiers who recently released came to the Armouries last night to finalize his papers.  He wasn‘t regarded as a good soldier - I didn‘t serve in his section so I can‘t say whether or not he was.  But I have talked to others who have, and whatever bad things may have been said about him, whatever things he was called (from thief to moron, and the nicest thing I‘ve heard about him was "he tries hard"), he was never what he would have been called in the States - "dumb nigger."  I‘ve yet to hear that word be used to or in reference to anyone, even in passing.  It might go on, probably does go on, but I haven‘t seen it - not in the Army, anyway.  If you don‘t believe that, that is your problem.  I can‘t prove it to you, and honestly can‘t be bothered to try.  Several people I would never have expected it from came to the OR for the sole purpose of shaking his hand and asking him how he was doing.  They obviously didn‘t have to do that.  But he was a Highlander, and so they did.

I think too many white people make too big a deal out of racial hiring policies, and see discrimination where there is none.  White people whine and cry too, you know.  The Calgary Police were under scrutiny for setting targets for non-whites (as well as females).  And while there are more females on the Force now, I am reasonably sure they are still taking the best candidates for the job based on merit and ability - and that many visible minorities do not join the police for some of the same reasons they don‘t join the Army that have been mentioned here by others.  And the majority of policemen are still WASP males.

If racism is so prevalent in your corner of the world, then I sympathize with you - and caution you not to let it make you bitter.  If you‘ve gone into business for yourself, I submit that you have no reason to fear racist hiring practices, and if you are really that concerned about Canada being able to defend you in case of war, I doubt it will come to that any time soon. 

We may not have a manpool exempt from the "multi-cultural advocates", (LDA training is specifically designed to remind us that we have a "diverse army") but I have yet to meet anyone who felt they had to take race into consideration when giving - or obeying - an order.  That‘s not what the military is about.  

And on our last parade, we all took off our headdress and prayed to the same God.  The chaplain happened to be RC (or Protestant, maybe, I really wasn‘t bothered to find out).  I don‘t think anyone minded, but of course, all the minorities had already sold their people out by wearing a kilt to begin with, right?

Oh wait - "their people" were the Canadians.  Silly me.


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## the patriot (2 Nov 2000)

With respect to the comment in regards to pictures from WW2 and the European faces in the photos from JimisCanadian; Sikhs wore their turbans and kirpans at Vimy Ridge and helped capture it alongside the Canadians that fought there in World War One.  Come to think of it, the whole Indian sub-continent (Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims) fought against the Germans, Italians, and the Japanese in the past two world wars.  I would strongly suggest that you (JimisCanadian) should get your story right and do your homework before you slag people that have died to give you "the freedom of speech" so that you can post your eurocentric garbage on this site.  Yes, coloured people died so that you could open your fat mouth.  Ironically enough, it‘s those countries that have "coloured people" (as Jimiscanadian would probably call them pakis and niggers) that are committing more troops (battalion and brigade sized units) to UN Peacekeeping tours.  Now imagine if your white Canadian government would ever do that?! 

-the patriot-


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## the patriot (3 Nov 2000)

"There is only one colour, and that colour is red.
 That being the colour of the blood of the enemy
 caked on my sword...."

-the patriot-


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## RCA (3 Nov 2000)

Canada won‘t disappear from a bang or a wimper but from ingnorance. Jim must have bent over and kissed his ass when he realized he was born white. But my advise to you is if you don‘t believe us come and join. I guaretee you you won‘t last because you will find we don‘t toerate your bullshit.

Ubique


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## jimiscanadian (3 Nov 2000)

Master Blaster: I really hope you were trying to be "over the top" when you wrote about "stuffing someones intestines back into their abdomen". The last time I took an advanced trauma course, the procedure is NOT to replace them, but to cover with sterile dressings, irrigate with saline, and bangade LIGHTLY to contain them. Then to transport the casualty immediately to advanced medical aid, where a surgeon, who has a hell of a lot more knowledge than you or I, will carefully examine and repair the gut, and then close and suture. But of course, you knew that didn‘t you? 

Dorosh: Let‘s be clear here. I said that the CANADIANS in WW2 were mostly Anglo, with a scattering of others. How many Chinese does your reference book represent? A company in total? And I know that they were sent to be undercover agents in the Orient, which made sense, a white man would have been unable to accomplish the mission, too easy to spot. The only "coloured" member of the RCAF from ww2 that I have ever met, was the former LT Governor, Lincoln Alexander, who was a aircraftsman 2. I have never seen, or heard of, any Flying Officer, or Pilot Officer, or Sgt Pilot, of the RCAF from ww2, who was anything other than white. As for the graves in Italy and elsewhere, I was refering to men who had the ‘Canada" flash on their shoulder, not the Indians, or the Gurkhas. I was a parade marshall at the annual Warriors day parade at the CNE this year, and I saw that the number of veterans is steadily declining, as they advance in age. I also saw the number of marchers from other countries military is increasing. Vietnamese, and Korean contingents were large, and the comments from the Canadian vets were a mixture of disgust at the Vietnamese, because of their " American" dress and drill, and admiration for the Koreans who wore identical dark blue suits, white shirts, and red ties,and were very quiet, and polite. They also made point, at the end of the parade, to break off, and appalaude the Canadian Korea vets.

In total, you all seem to have missed my point, which is this.Are the Canadian Armed Forces a world apart from the rest of Canada? Or are they a reflection of the country as a whole? The answer seems to be that you think it is a reflection of the country, with good relations between the races in the CAF, and a feeling of comradeship in the units. OK, I‘m glad you feel that way......BUT, I still have a problem with the nagging thought that you are deluding yourselves re the race situation. The answer will come in the future, at a uncertain date, when the country calls, who will answer? I wonder?

Finally, for those of you might have been wondering. I served in the 48th in the period 1970 to 1973. I am a retired Ambulance Officer from Metro Toronto Ambulance with 22 years service, and I am currently a small business owner. My father was a ww1 CEF veteran, in the CMGC, was wounded 3 times, and yes, he was at Vimy Ridge. I‘ll  march off now, to the sound of either applause, or hisses, as you decide wether I am a racist, or someone who simply has a different view of the contemporary society in Canada, and it‘s constituent factions, green or otherwise.X


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## bossi (8 Nov 2000)

Here‘s an example of "doing the right thing", against an order (further to my earlier point that our traditional training and ethos should be able to allow us to discern right from wrong, and that knee-jerk, politically correct solutions are not always necessary - instead, we should relearn the basics ... i.e. "look after the troops").

Dileas Gu Brath!

(From The Guardian):

Ashdown tells how father stood by Indian troops 

Patrick Wintour, chief political correspondent 
Wednesday November 8, 2000 

Sir Paddy Ashdown revealed yesterday how his father was brought before a court martial for refusing to comply with an order to abandon Indian troops under his command during the Dunkirk retreat. 
The order had been "idiotic and disgraceful", said Sir Paddy, who was a Royal Marine captain before he was leader of the Liberal Democrats. His father, who ended the war a colonel, was in the Royal Indian Army Service Corps, based in the Punjab. In 1939 he took a platoon of Indian soldiers and their troop of mules as one of four mule trains to join the British Expeditionary Force in France. 

During the BEF‘s 100-mile retreat in June 1940, the order went out from a senior British officer to set loose the mules and the Indians; the British officers were ordered to make their way to Dunkirk for evacuation, since officers were in short supply. 

Sir Paddy‘s father, John, disobeyed, turning loose the mules but marching his platoon to Dunkirk without loss. There he secured a berth for them all on the last ship out before the jetty was bombed. Back in England, he was reunited with his wife, Lois, but court martialled for disobeying an order. The court martial was subsequently thrown out, according to Sir Paddy. 

The Ministry of Defence, when first approached about the story by the Southall-based TV company Zee TV, said its archive department had after two days been unable to find any record of Indian troops at Dunkirk; it also reported it had lost the records of Indian Army court martials. Zee TV located a record of the Indian troops‘ presence in hours at the Imperial War Museum. The ministry then asserted that the command to cut loose the Indians and mules, made by a single officer, did not amount to an official order. 

Sir Paddy said last night: "It may seem that the order was a racist one in the context of our time, but my father thought simply that these were his men, he was responsible for them, and he must bring them back. That was the beginning and the end of it." 
- 30 -


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## Master Blaster (8 Nov 2000)

No Jimi; I didn‘t have the advantages of the training, warm and fuzzy back up or the trauma center within a five minutes drive. It‘s extrememly difficult to place someone into a chopper in a hot LZ without first stuffing the intestines back into the body cavity, they get underfoot and tangle in the gear.  This was 27 years ago so things have probably changed a little by now, EH Sunshine?

I do recall your original question and I think if you reread it you may get the impression that it was a little racist in it‘s format.  I‘m not implying that you are a racist (anymore) only that you appear to have what is commonly referred to as a bigotted attitude.  It‘s a tangled web because anytime you do not agree with someone that has more ‘friends‘ than you do, you MUST be a bigot therefore anything you utter is from ignorance and fear.  I have been there and seen it for myself and applaud anyone that has the courage to fight the status quo.

I am a bigot

I am a racist

I am ignorant

Anyone that disagrees with me MUST be against bigots, racists and ignorant people.

Simplistic? Yes  Realistic?  Yes

True?  I don‘t think so but it‘s all at the discretion of someone else‘s perception to decide.

Dileas Gu Brath


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## the patriot (16 Nov 2000)

Oh Jimi, here‘s another one for you.  Coloured people (as you would call them pakis and niggers; India and countries of the African continent, just in case you failed high school geography) have fully functional Airborne Regiments in their Order of Battle.  Not this tiddly wink bullshit that you‘re white "Canadian Government" would call a "parachute capability".  Funny how rednecks feel the need to express themselves when they have pickles up their asses.  As for your affiliation with the 48th Highlanders; you‘re an insult to the kilt and every Highlander that ever died for Canada.

-the patriot-


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## tonykeene (10 Jul 2006)

I think the big problem here is not that the CF is not diverse, because it certainly is.  The problem is that most of us only see what is immediately around us, and since reserve units in big cities tend to be diverse, then people in those units look around them and see a great mixture of folks.

However, the Regular Force as a whole recruits largely from a stable base of only about 300,000 Canadians (the CDS says so, anyway) who are largely drawn from three regional areas.  These are The Maritimes (with heavy emphasis on Cape Breton and Newfoundland), rural Quebec, and the Prairies.  This recruiting base is largely male, white and ultra-conservative.

Put a Montreal or Toronto militia unit on parade beside a regular infantry battalion, and you'll see...the difference is immediately obvious.

I'm sure our recruiters would love to get way more people from cities, and from the different communities etc in those cities.  It just doesn't seem to be happening to any large degree, despite the great amount of money and effort expended.

So the CF is diverse, in small areas, but nowhere near as diverse as the urban population of Canada.  And since 85 per cent of Canadians live in medium to large cities, we in fact have little real contact with the bulk of Canadians.  I'm sure that now more reservists are going on operations (and sadly, being killed in action) this will change, but it will be very slow.

Which is why they often don't even recognize the uniform.


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## paracowboy (10 Jul 2006)

Holy Necro-posting Batman! And your reason for resurrecting a thread not touched in 6 years is...?


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## Danjanou (10 Jul 2006)

I’d also be a little careful with your Geography there ole buddy. Most Newfoundlanders I know of don’t like to be referred to as from and/or part of the Maritimes. That term is reserved for those from the other three provinces that make up Atlantic Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick  and PEI.


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## tonykeene (10 Jul 2006)

Oh dear, I'm sorry.  My editor used to beat on me all the time for that one.

Newfoundland and Labrador may be called an Atlantic province, but not part of the Maritimes.  Is that right?

In answer as to why I entered this thread after several years is because this very subject came up at a conference I attended earlier this year, and the CDS stood up at the front and told us why were we having trouble recruiting more folks.  We have such a narrow recruting base in Canada; it does not cover the entire country, not by a long shot.


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## George Wallace (10 Jul 2006)

Let's look at Canada for a second and examine it's demographics.  Most of our 'minorities' who have emigrated here and become immigrants or refugees to Canada have settled in the cities.  There are many distractions in the Cities and many opportunities.  If the demographics of the CF are that most of the members of the CF are from Rural or small municipalities, then the numbers can be easily explained.  The predominately 'White' population is in the Rural and small municipalities with fewer 'distractions' and opportunities.  The majority of the 'Coloured' population is in the major metropolitan areas, and have no expossure to, or interest in, the CF.  Where are the majority of CF Bases located?  Not in the major Metropolitan areas (In the majority of cases.).


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## paracowboy (10 Jul 2006)

tonykeene said:
			
		

> In answer as to why I entered this thread after several years is because this very subject came up at a conference I attended earlier this year, and the CDS stood up at the front and told us why were we having trouble recruiting more folks.


seen


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## Danjanou (10 Jul 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Let's look at Canada for a second and examine it's demographics.  Most of our 'minorities' who have emigrated here and become immigrants or refugees to Canada have settled in the cities.  There are many distractions in the Cities and many opportunities.  If the demographics of the CF are that most of the members of the CF are from Rural or small municipalities, then the numbers can be easily explained.  The predominately 'White' population is in the Rural and small municipalities with fewer 'distractions' and opportunities.  The majority of the 'Coloured' population is in the major metropolitan areas, and have no expossure to, or interest in, the CF.  Where are the majority of CF Bases located?  Not in the major Metropolitan areas (In the majority of cases.).



GW I think you summed it up rather well, and I have more than a passing knowledge on Immigration patterns and demographics as you know. It would also support Major Keene's comparison between a sterotypical "urban" Militia Bn and a "'rural" Regular one. Although I would add the more rural Reserve units to that latter list as well.

BTW Tony, the only editor I ever saw beat on you was because you smashed up his ride, not because you got what part of Eastern Canada he was from wrong.


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## tonykeene (11 Jul 2006)

Oh Jaysus By, youse mean Bob Butt?  Dat was in Wainwirght...long time gone b'y.


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## exsemjingo (22 Jul 2006)

I had hoped that I left this nonsense behind in my Sociology courses...
What do you want, affirmative action?  2 otherwise equal applicants apply, but one is of a 'desirable' race, and one is of an 'undesirable' one.  Who gets chosen?
Better question:  Who sets the criteria?  I have not specified which one is "white".

Two things must be understood.  One is that Toronto has a significantly higher percentage of minorities than the rest of Canada.  Is there anything wrong with that?  Of course not, but, knowing this, no one should be surprised to see a difference between Toronto demographics and Canadian Forces demographics.
If I have to spell it out, if there was no difference, some ethnic group would be favored over others.

Here is a final comment for any boneheads who think the Canadian Forces are racist either by intention or by accident:  My profile does not say what color my skin is.


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## George Wallace (22 Jul 2006)

exsemjingo said:
			
		

> ............My profile does not say what color my skin is.



Who friggin cares!  As has been mentioned numerous times already; the only thing that matters is that you are "Green".......you wear the same Green uniform as the rest of us.  (Sorry, no offence to our Air and Navy friends.)


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## Roy Harding (22 Jul 2006)

The CF is a meritocracy, period.

Nobody cares what your skin colour is, what your ethnic background may be, or what your religion is - as long as you can "DO IT", you are accepted.  If you "DO IT" in a superior manner, promotions follow.

I was in for 25 years - I've been a civvie for two and a half years.  In the 25 years I served I never ONCE heard race mentioned as a factor in assessing an individual's performance.  I currently work in a civilian cabinet shop - there's a Jamaican women there who is extremely interested, willing to learn, and only has to be told what she's doing wrong ONCE - you'll never see her make the same mistake twice.  There's a "WASP" woman there who is a classic "thudfuck" - thinks she knows better than journeymen tradesmen, argues when corrected, and makes the SAME mistake many times.  (Mistakes around an industrial table saw and other industrial machinery can make the machine bite you and others, BAD).

When it came to performance evaluations, the WASP got a bigger raise than the Jamaican Jewel (as I call her) - what's up with THAT??

I had the Jamaican Jewel transferred to my personal control, where she has continued to perform admirably, and I convinced the higher ups to give her the same wage as the WASP idiot.  She (my Jamaican Jewel) is the star of my little corner of the universe - the WASP continues to be an albatross around her section head's neck, and yet he prefers it this way.

Give me a meritocracy any day.

Edit:  For the record - I, too, am a "WASP".


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## exsemjingo (23 Jul 2006)

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> The CF is a meritocracy, period.
> 
> Nobody cares what your skin colour is, what your ethnic background may be, or what your religion is - as long as you can "DO IT", you are accepted.  If you "DO IT" in a superior manner, promotions follow.



That's what I said, and that's how it should be.  But if some of these social scientists get their way with our beloved military, it will be ruined utterly.  They do pay attention to such demographics.


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## GINge! (23 Jul 2006)

jimiscanadian said:
			
		

> , such as different foods being available in the cafeteria, no pork, no fish, vegetarian, for example. . JIM BUNTING



You can get Halal, Kosher, and Vegetarian IMP's now.


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## Sub_Guy (23 Jul 2006)

Thats a good idea having those different types of IMPs.   As for diversity, one uniform, one race, human....................We all serve under the same flag, quotas, affirmative action, is useless...........Best human for the job period.


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## George Wallace (23 Jul 2006)

You see....this is how it all starts......people, including journalists and members of this forum just don't "Pay Attention to Detail".  It is something that we preach all the time in the CF.  Just out of curiosity, why are you guys dredging up posts that are six years old and answering people who are long gone?


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## Echo9 (24 Jul 2006)

I've been thinking about this for a while, and the question that I keep getting back to is:

Does it even matter?


What benefits does racial diversity bring to an army?  I suppose that there are some residual "representing Canadians" benefits, but it's not like the police, where the force is actively engaged in the population, and having a member of a particular community may bring some operational benefits in terms of enhancing information transfer, defusing tension, and the like.  An army (hopefully) doesn't get engaged within the population, so I don't think that same dynamic exists there..

Perhaps there are benefits from having members of a similar culture to the theatres where we are active (for the same reasons as the police above), but I don't think that diversity advocates are looking to vastly increase the number of south asians and haitians in particular.  Indeed, that would produce a force that is not very representative of Canada as a whole... if that's the goal.

Perhaps there are some benefits in terms of ensuring that we hit our recruiting numbers, but ultimately, as long as we've got a force that's as big as mandated, then there's not a huge gain there.  While not necessarily desirable, I'm not sure that CF effectiveness as an instrument of foreign policy would be all that different if it were manned entirely by capers and _bleuets_.



At the end, I keep getting back to the same intuition.  And that's that diversity in the CF is not a big thing for the force itself, but that perhaps it is important for our society.  Where i'm getting at is that there's likely not a huge benefit from having diversity in the forces.  However, it is a potentially useful proxy for the level of engagement of the different portions of our cultural mosaic within the society at large.  If members of a particular community are active in the CF, it's a decent indicator that that community has bought into the fundamentals of citizenship.  And for that reason, it's an interesting metric.

All of that said, I still check off the "does not choose to self-identify" for all of those surveys that come around.  They always seem to end up as fodder for social engineers with bright ideas...


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## GAP (24 Jul 2006)

As a guy who joined the Marines when he had no real exposure to US society (not much different, but there are subtleties), never known blacks, Mexicans, etc. the one thing I can say about diversity, is that it did not make any difference. We lived and fought as a unit. There were a few rednecks on all three sides, but ignorance knows no bounds. But when the bullets flew, I and everyone else didn't give two hoots about the diversity of the guy covering me, so long as he could shoot straight.


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## Bobbyoreo (24 Jul 2006)

GAP and ECHO9 ..hit the nail right on the head!!!


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## pbi (24 Jul 2006)

There is another aspect to this diversity thing, one that I think is far more hard-nosed and pragmatic, and a lot less airy-fairy PC than people might think. That is, IIRC,  that the ''European'' white male portion of the population is either almost static in terms of growth, or is actually shrinking. Other demographics are growing. For example, if I am not wrong, one of the fastest growing groups in Canada is aboriginals. 

Now, if you want to preserve a volunteer army (i.e. if we assume that conscription is a non-starter in Canada in peacetime), or you want to make that volunteer army bigger, or to get the right calibre of recruits, then you better be able to tap into the biggest possible slice of the population, since to begin with IMHO very few people in a Western liberal democracy are interested in joining the military as a career. I include the USA in this generalization, along with the majority of European countries that have now coverted to professional volunteer forces. I do not believe we are alone in this problem.

To me, it only makes common sense to do everything that we can reasonably and ethically do to broaden our recruiting base as a guarantee of our future survival. Note, please, that I am not advocating dropping any standards, since I don't think this is useful in the long run, nor even really needed in the short run.

Really, who gives a crap what colour or race the soldiers in WWI and WWII were? So what? It's completely irrelevant to the very pressing issue of how we are going to sustain a volunteer professional army in Canada in a changing population base. Do alot of new Canadian parents think badly of their kids joining up? Really? Well...then they're not too different from alot of their white, Euro, Christian suburban neighbours, are they? In fact, they fit right in, don't they?

What we need to do, in my opinion, is aggresively represent the Army as a professional, combat-worthy force that is open to everybody who can meet the standards. That is about as much as we in the Army can do directly  (that, and sort out any remaining racists, sexists, or other such mouth-breathers who may still be stupid enough to show their true colours...) What would be great, but perhaps beyond our reach as a military, would be to develop the idea in Canadian society that military service is a good way to build Canadians who can respect each other based on having served with people who look different but are still good soldiers. After all, who cares what race, colour or religion a person is in a firefight? All I would care about is whether or not they had paid attention during ''Holding, Aiming and Firing''.

Those few historic and well-publicized incidents that Canadians think they know all about, and that some people still think characterize the people in the Army, are now almost all well over a decade behind us. We've come a very long way, as witnessed by some of the very astute posts in response to jimiscanadian's stream of utter rubbish. The point is, we still have a long way to go. We can't stop now, or perhaps ever. We will probably never have Canadians jamming the recruiting centres in peace time, but we have to ensure a steady flow of enough good people to make things work. The last thing we want is to have a young Canadian, who might be a great soldier, turn his back on us because '' they don't want people like me''.

How to do it? Quotas and other such tripe are useless rubbish and will achieve nothing, IMHO. We have to reach out, through recruiting, through community involvement, through Regtl associations, or whatever we can think of. If we don't take the initiative, who will?  I am reminded of a recent speech by the CDS at CFC, in which he described visiting an Ottawa mosque and talking with the elders, and the relationship he has developed with them. He pointed out how important this kind of thing is, and how little we generally do of it.

It may seem ''PC'' and not ''in our lane'' to do such things, but our survival as an institution is our responsibility, and that means making sure as many interested Canadians as can meet the standard are happy to join and comfortable to serve. And if that means that some people ***** in their beer down at the Legion about the _'damned immigrants wrecking this country we built'_, so be it. When, exactly, did we stop building Canada?

Cheers


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## quadrapiper (30 Jul 2006)

pbi said:
			
		

> Now, if you want to preserve a volunteer army (i.e. if we assume that conscription is a non-starter in Canada in peacetime), or you want to make that volunteer army bigger, or to get the right calibre of recruits, then you better be able to tap into the biggest possible slice of the population, since to begin with IMHO very few people in a Western liberal democracy are interested in joining the military as a career. I include the USA in this generalization, along with the majority of European countries that have now coverted to professional volunteer forces. I do not believe we are alone in this problem.
> 
> To me, it only makes common sense to do everything that we can reasonably and ethically do to broaden our recruiting base as a guarantee of our future survival. Note, please, that I am not advocating dropping any standards, since I don't think this is useful in the long run, nor even really needed in the short run.


 [pure stream-of-thought]Perhaps, from the Army point of view, take a leaf from the British? Stand up some culturally distinct Reserve units _a la_ Highland, Irish, and Welsh regiments. [/pure stream-of-thought]

Also, perhaps encourage non-Christian "faith leaders" to join the Chaplain Corps - within my incredibly limited experience, I've never heard of one, although I'm sure they exist.


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## George Wallace (30 Jul 2006)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> [pure stream-of-thought]Perhaps, from the Army point of view, take a leaf from the British? Stand up some culturally distinct Reserve units _a la_ Highland, Irish, and Welsh regiments. [/pure stream-of-thought]
> 
> Also, perhaps encourage non-Christian "faith leaders" to join the Chaplain Corps - within my incredibly limited experience, I've never heard of one, although I'm sure they exist.



Are you on drugs?  I ask, because all of these things already exist, so your post is a waste of airtime.


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## quadrapiper (1 Aug 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Are you on drugs?  I ask, because all of these things already exist, so your post is a waste of airtime.


Sorry, I was thinking something along the lines of "3rd Battalion, Surrey Sikh Light Infantry" or whatever - is there a unit or program like that already in existence? As I said, _like_ the British... only a different set of cultures, wierd hats, languages, and strange food.

Besides, it couldn't be as much a waste of airtime as the running PC-non-PC-racist-whatever catfight earlier in this thread...

As to the chaplains, please excuse my ignorance... what religions, other than Christianity, have you come across?


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## probum non poenitet (1 Aug 2006)

There is one Muslim chaplain in the CF. He was the first, and completed his training about two years ago - I might be off by a year.

I don't know of any other non-Christian chaplains currently serving, but I believe there is a movement on to recruit more.

During the Bold Eagle program (basic training for all Native platoons) some Native elders were given a rank of captain and performed a role similar to, though not exactly the same, as chaplain.


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## Journeyman (1 Aug 2006)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> ... only a different set of cultures, wierd hats, languages, and strange food.



Believe it or not, _every_ generation has this same argument. I recall my father telling me how it was those _foreigners_, you know, the Irish, who screwed things up. Now you blithely include them amongst "us."  I had a grandmother who died still strongly believing Roman Catholics were an abomination, with Anglicans a close second for hell; Muslim, Judaic, Sikh, etc didn't even register on her radar.

While there will always be cro-magnons within any group, including the military, I think the CF is well ahead of many other groups in embracing diversity;  look how many corporations trumpet their liberalism by showcasing women amongst the directors - - white, anglo women to be sure, but look..._women!_  :

It requires _merely_ an open mind and the flexibility to adopt possibly different recruiting themes. As for a "different set of cultures, weird hats, languages, and strange food".....I've raised teenagers


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## George Wallace (1 Aug 2006)

:

Let see what a Search will turn up shall we?

 Accommodations for Religion in the Canadian Forces & in Canadian Society  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25815.0.html

 Religious Discussion   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31971.0.html

The Affects of New Religions on Canadian Society   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34470.0.html

Christmas Traditions and Political Correctness Gone Awild   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37441.0.html

Religion and Politics   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/18077.0.html

Dog Tags  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/20810.0.html

Question of religious rights   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/3852.0.html 

Non Christian Chaplain: Possible?   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26792.0.html

Is the CAF as diversified as canada is?   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37.0.html

Political Correctness gone too far?  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36422.0.html

"Multi-cultural" Vs "Visible Minorities".   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/38628.0.html

Accommodations for other "Non-Religions" by Canadian Society (Split)   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/45181.0.html

Role of the Padre   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/4270.0.html

Role of the CF Padres   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/29182.0.html

Non Christian Chaplain: Possible?   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/26792.0.html

Christians?   http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/16677.0.html

Uniforms  http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php/board,67.0.html





Now that I have wasted the majority of my morning doing work for you can you do some for me?

I would strongly advise you to READ these following items FIRST:




MSN and ICQ "short hand" -  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33247.0.html

Regarding the use of "MSN speak" versus the employment of prose which is correct in grammar, spelling and punctuation, please see: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34015/post-260446.html#msg260446

Army.ca Conduct Guidelines: MUST READ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937.0.html

FRIENDLY ADVICE TO NEW MEMBERS - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/24937/post-259412.html#msg259412

Recruiting FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21101.0.html

Infantry FAQ - http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/21131.0.html

Canadian Forces Aptitude Test - http://army.ca/forums/threads/21101/post-103977.html#msg103977

Fitness requirements at enrolment, see page 12 of this brochure:
http://www.recruiting.forces.ca/media/pdf/physical_fitness_en.pdf

Search page - http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=search;advanced

Army.ca wiki pages  - http://army.ca/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


To summarize. Welcome to Army.ca, start reading.


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## quadrapiper (1 Aug 2006)

Thanks! 

Anyone have any info on the Bold Eagle program? Searched the site - and the wiki - found many references, but no significant detail, beyond the obvious: First Nations-specific BMQ course, with, apparently, elders as temp Capt-rank chaplain-equivalents.

Also, when I said "only a different set of cultures, wierd hats, languages, and strange food" I was thinking of Highlanders... Gaelic-infused, haggis-eating, balmoral-wearing, and a home to both genuine Scots and various others... although I take your teenager point. 

[off-topic]Really, since society can handle the disturbances caused by each new generation of teenagers (especially this most recent one), the racket made about immigrants eroding Canadian/American culture/lifestyle seems strange... society (and the CF) survived hippies, disco, and the eighties![/off-topic] 

Sorry about any forehead-slapping ignorance; I fit firmly into the "interested in" rather than "informed about" category, regarding the Army especially, and the CF in general.


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## probum non poenitet (1 Aug 2006)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Thanks!
> 
> Anyone have any info on the Bold Eagle program? Searched the site - and the wiki - found many references, but no significant detail, beyond the obvious: First Nations-specific BMQ course, with, apparently, elders as temp Capt-rank chaplain-equivalents.



http://www.armee.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=284

May fall under the 'obvious,' but it has some detail and a toll free phone number for more info.


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## quadrapiper (1 Aug 2006)

probum non poenitet said:
			
		

> http://www.armee.gc.ca/lf/English/6_1_1.asp?id=284
> 
> May fall under the 'obvious,' but it has some detail and a toll free phone number for more info.


Interesting - thanks! Searched DND; found the program site: http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/boldeagle/contents.htm; I wasn't able to access the ...forces.gc.ca sites earlier.

Sounds almost cadet-like... (runs away from shower of stones) Anyone have personal experience with the program? Or background info on same - like how many grads actually join the CF?


----------



## tonykeene (3 Aug 2006)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Believe it or not, _every_ generation has this same argument. I recall my father telling me how it was those _foreigners_, you know, the Irish, who screwed things up. Now you blithely include them amongst "us."  I had a grandmother who died still strongly believing Roman Catholics were an abomination, with Anglicans a close second for hell; Muslim, Judaic, Sikh, etc didn't even register on her radar.
> 
> While there will always be cro-magnons within any group, including the military, I think the CF is well ahead of many other groups in embracing diversity;  look how many corporations trumpet their liberalism by showcasing women amongst the directors - - white, anglo women to be sure, but look..._women!_  :
> 
> It requires _merely_ an open mind and the flexibility to adopt possibly different recruiting themes. As for a "different set of cultures, weird hats, languages, and strange food".....I've raised teenagers



Oh, what a wonderful simile.  I love it!  you are right on.  Yet so many people seem totally unable to adapt and accept.

good for you.  Thanks.


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## pbi (3 Aug 2006)

quadrapiper said:
			
		

> Anyone have personal experience with the program? Or background info on same - like how many grads actually join the CF?



 I was involved in a limited way in 2002-2005 (the HQ I was Chief of Staff of had a role in running Bold Eagle). While it was generally well subscribed, and quite popular with band leadership, as far as I know it produced almost nothing in the way of recruits for either the Res or the RegF. This is one of the negative things that opponents of Bold Eagle sometimes trot out. Personally, I think that anything that the CF (and Canada  in general...) can do to improve relations with First Nations, and help them get sorted out, is good.

Cheers


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## Long in the tooth (3 Aug 2006)

I attended the grad parade of Bold Eagle in 1999.  Many of the families and elders were present, and I their pride was quite apparant.  It was also quite clear that the recruits had put a lot of effort into the training.  They retained their cultural background to be sure, but I also believe they returned home as better 'citizens'.


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## Edward Campbell (28 Dec 2008)

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the _National Post_ web site are three letters to the editor that hark back to the original question in this thread:
--------------------
http://www.nationalpost.com/related/topics/story.html?id=1050026

 The (mostly white) faces of 100 heroes

National Post Published: Tuesday, December 09, 2008

Re: One Hundred To Remember, Dec. 6.

I applaud the heroism of the 100 Canadian soldiers who have lost their lives in the conflict in Afghanistan. Their dedication to freeing Afghan men, women and children from the horrors of the Taliban has been unwavering. I considered it a duty to read all their names and military designations; to fix my glance on so many young and noble faces seems the least that I could do to honour their sacrifice.

Yet in doing so, I realize that politically correct multiculturism seems oddly absent in this pictorial representation. Out of the 100, only three soldiers appear to be nonwhite. How curious.

_Elizabeth Rafferty Lawson_,
Delta, B. C.
-------------------
http://www.nationalpost.com/related/topics/story.html?id=1059820

 Heroes & freedom

National Post Published: Thursday, December 11, 2008

Re: The (Mostly White) Faces Of 100 Heroes, letter to the editor, Dec. 9.

Like letter-writer Elizabeth Rafferty Lawson, I too find it curious that minorities are, apparently, not well represented among those who have stepped forward to defend Canada and have died for this country. Are there truly so few minorities in our Armed Forces? Are they just lucky? Or is it that nowadays many people come here to enjoy this country's freedoms, but are encouraged to stay in cliquey communities instead of learning firsthand just how Canada's history and values have helped to shape our freedoms -- freedoms that ought to be defended?

_Anita Kern_,
Toronto.
--------------------
http://www.nationalpost.com/related/topics/story.html?id=1118174

 Visible minorities in the Armed Forces

National Post Published: Saturday, December 27, 2008

Re: The (Mostly White) Faces Of 100 Heroes, letter, Dec. 9; Our Ethnically Diverse Forces, letter, Dec. 23.

Since writing my Dec. 9 letter commenting on the number of white soldiers killed in Afghanistan, five more white soldiers have lost their lives. I based my comments entirely on the pictures of the dead 97 white men. No matter how much people such as letter-writer Captain Keith Lobo dislike this fact, visible minorities are poorly represented in the Canadian military.

Statistics Canada and the Department of National Defence both stated that visible minorities comprise just 6% of our military, with no one offering a rational explanation for this sorry state.

Would more visible minorities do their patriotic duty, should Canada find itself in a wider and more deadly conflict? That remains to be seen.

_Elizabeth Rafferty Lawson_,
Delta, B. C.
--------------------

There is no answer to the *loaded* (with much bias) question at the end: _”Would more visible minorities do their patriotic duty, should Canada find itself in a wider and more deadly conflict?”_

Some *cultures* have an anti-military bias. There is an old Chinese saying - _”You don’t use good iron to make horseshoe nails and you don’t use good men to make soldiers”_ – that sums up the Confucian disdain for the military craft (and for _crafts_ in general). Some immigrants still have pretty well founded fears of the uniformed services in their former homelands and transfer their suspicions to the uniformed services in the new homes – ask police forces about their problems in recruiting visible minorities. Some immigrant *cultures* put a real premium on the educational/economic futures if their children and the armed forces is not perceived to be a “high value” profession.



And yes, I know it is a very old thread. I, personally, prefer to resurrect old threads that have relevant details rather than just start a new one.


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## chris_log (28 Dec 2008)

I can't seem to figure out if they are;

a) Bashing the CF for not ensuring that more of our 'multicultural' troops get killed, or

b) Bashing minority communities for not ensuring that more of their 'sons and daughters' are serving and getting killed. 

I'm also not sure if I should be angry at someone for using soldier's deaths to advance an utterly stupid (no matter which perspective she's arguing from) agenda or if I should just feel sorry for someone who has nothing better to do then pick fly poop out of pepper.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (28 Dec 2008)

X


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## Edward Campbell (28 Dec 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> I can't seem to figure out if they are;
> 
> a) Bashing the CF for not ensuring that more of our 'multicultural' troops get killed, or
> 
> ...




That was, roughly, my reaction, too. That's why I decided to reopen this old and somewhat contentious thread: am I the only one confused and somewhat disturbed by this 'response' to our ongoing casualties.

Does it matter, even a bit, if we you 'reflect Canadian society' in terms of ... what: skin color? religion? whatever else? Does it, maybe, matter a bit more that reserve units reflect their local communities? Why? But if you don't 'reflecvt' the nation then are we denying ourselves a significant part of the recruiting base?


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## dimsum (28 Dec 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> There is an old Chinese saying - _”You don’t use good iron to make horseshoe nails and you don’t use good men to make soldiers”_ – that sums up the Confucian disdain for the military craft (and for _crafts_ in general). Some immigrants still have pretty well founded fears of the uniformed services in their former homelands and transfer their suspicions to the uniformed services in the new homes – ask police forces about their problems in recruiting visible minorities. Some immigrant *cultures* put a real premium on the educational/economic futures if their children and the armed forces is not perceived to be a “high value” profession.



Being a visible minority myself, I can understand the points listed above at least for the generation born in Canada to foreign-born parents.  I would think that after that, many of the "old country" reservations about the military (and everything else) will begin to disappear.  

I've always wondered why the CF hasn't launched an info campaign with their visible-minority members in foreign-language media and events, at least in centres like Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver...this could dispel some of the fears/assumptions associated with militaries in their homelands.

Add:  Another possible reason is that being from an urban centre, some people aren't too keen on moving around the country, especially to small towns.  While this affects all people regardless of culture, etc...a recent immigrant or 1st-generation *insert culture*-Canadian may feel even more out-of-place than most.  I remember telling my parents my choices of posting locations when (if) my course is done, and the first response back was "you'll be the only Chinese guy out there."  I don't see it that way, but I can understand how some might.


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## blacktriangle (28 Dec 2008)

I've had pretty diverse room mates before. russian, sikh, korean...


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## Kirkhill (28 Dec 2008)

The issue isn't related to "visible minorities" only.

I have a friend with whom I am working that came here from Serbia.  He and I are the same age.  Our wives and kids are mirror images of each other. We laugh that I trained as Blue Force (our good guys, their bad guys) while they trained as Red Force (their good guys, our bad guys). I tell him that the difference between him and me is that he got the wrong history books.

A few weeks back we were in the terminal at Dorval waiting for a flight out when we ran into a clutch of young soldiers just out of BMQs at St-Jean and on their way to Battle School at Wainwright.  That got us to talking about soldiers and soldiering and why we joined. 

He just couldn't understand why anybody would volunteer to be a soldier.   He originally assumed it must be the money - I disabused of that.  Then it must be the power - I disabused him of that as well.  He couldn't accept a willingness to do good - coming from Serbia that may be understandable (He's death against Clinton but a fan of MacKenzie).

Then it dawned on me - the argument that seemed to clinch it for him.  In his army the worst thing that could happen to a new recruit would be More Army.  (More training, more time in, a military prison).  For those young soldiers out of BMQ the worst thing that could happen would be Less Army - being released and not being allowed to be a soldier.

By the way, this gentleman is the same individual that saw a det from the local arty unit conducting training close to his son's baseball game - 3 soldiers with a radio.   The next thing he knew he was at home trembling.  He had immediately run for the car and got out of there.  His son, whom he loves as much as I do mine, was still at the game.


We have very different experiences and expectations.


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## Love793 (28 Dec 2008)

Kirkhill- You hit the main reason why we have problems attracting "Naturalized Canadians" or what ever Immigration refers to them as today, on the the head. Most come from countries where there Militaries are slightly more then well armed, poorly disciplined street gangs. They naturally fear every person whom wears a uniform or works for the Govts at all levels.  This of course gets passed down from generation to generation, and will take a very long to filtered out.

As for the Diversity Issue, we the CF have been in the lead of other Govt agencies in attempting to attract more and more minorities, but lets face it if people aren't interested what can we do? The Treasury Board can jump up and down, the media can write what they want, and MPs can demand answers until they're blue in the face, but it won't change a thing. If they won't walk into the CFRCs we can't hire them.


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## gwp (28 Dec 2008)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Being a visible minority myself, I can understand the points listed above at least for the generation born in Canada to foreign-born parents.  I would think that after that, many of the "old country" reservations about the military (and everything else) will begin to disappear.
> 
> I've always wondered why the CF hasn't launched an info campaign with their visible-minority members in foreign-language media and events, at least in centres like Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver...this could dispel some of the fears/assumptions associated with militaries in their homelands.
> 
> Another possible reason is that being from an urban centre, some people aren't too keen on moving around the country, especially to small towns.


Your first comment likely is true as is the experience in the Cadet Organizations.   While the Cadet Organizations are not a recruiting base for the CF at the same time the diversity that is reflected amongst the teenagers is not being translated in anyway as a career.  This link is to a MacLeans article that speaks to the diversity in cadets and how immigrant parents see the program as a path to "Canadianization".   An example is the Irish Fusilliers Cadet Corps in Richmond which has attracted mostly Sikh and and Chinese children.  

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/features/article.jsp?content=20050801_110153_110153

'A lot fewer white people'
Once male and pale, the cadet corps is diversifying
THULASI SRIKANTHAN | Aug 02, 2005

It's the sound of Cantonese in the midst of a summer training camp at CFB Borden that signals how much change has come to Canada's cadet forces. Alan Cheung and his cousin Warren Tsang fire remarks back and forth in their native tongue as they fill their water bottles. "We talk all the time to each other in Cantonese," says Cheung. This is the 14-year-old's first year at Blackdown, the summer training camp at CFB Borden near Barrie, Ont., and 15-year-old Tsang's second. The two Torontonians have been busy crossing rope bridges, perfecting their marching drills and teaching other cadets some Cantonese. Ask them about race or feeling different and they shake their heads in bewilderment. In their world, race just isn't a big issue. 

Cheung and Tsang are the new faces of Cadets Canada. After decades as a predominantly Caucasian male-dominated institution, the youth organization is evolving with the times and diversifying. With its non-denominational chaplains, religion-appropriate cuisine and anti-harassment counsellors, Cadets Canada is attracting, and retaining, more visible minorities, Aboriginal boys and girls.
Designed for youth from 12 to 18, the cadets, an institution more than a 125 years old, hold weekly meetings throughout the year. Each summer, cadets are selected from local sea, army or air units to participate in two- or six-week training sessions, mainly at military bases, across the country. Their instructors are civilians and reserve officers, but the cadets are not technically part of the Canadian Forces. In fact, officials say, the federally funded program does not focus on recruiting new members for the Forces. Rather, it teaches youth about citizenship, teamwork and physical fitness. Oh, and some rifle skills and marching drills for good measure.
At Borden, nearly 50 per cent of the 2,300 cadets are girls, and approximately 40 per cent come from the ethnically diverse Greater Toronto Area. "We are just a reflection of how Canadian society has changed," says Lt.-Col. Allan Campbell, the camp's commanding officer. Though Cadets Canada doesn't keep official track of visible minorities, numbers have increased noticeably in B.C., Alberta and Ontario, where thriving economies and established ethnic enclaves have attracted thousands of immigrants. These three provinces account for 80 per cent of Cadets Canada's growth, from 48,600 in 1995 to 54,700 in 2004.
Although Richmond, B.C.'s cadets go by the name Irish Fusiliers, you'd be hard-pressed to find an Irishman among them. Based in a Chinese-dominated area, the unit is more than 80-per-cent Asian. It's led by Maj. Gary Law, a Chinese-Canadian reserve officer who injects cultural lessons into regular cadet programming. His cadets not only learn first aid, drill and marksmanship, but they also visit Sikh temples and join Chinese New Year festivities. "We want to teach them to respect and interact with each other," says Law.
Lt.-Cmdr. Gerry Pash, a spokesperson for the cadet program in British Columbia, says it offers immigrant families an opportunity to become part of Canadian society and tradition. "Some parents see it as a way to 'Canadianize' their children," he says. Officer Cadet Saad Syed, a 19-year-old Pakistani-born Canadian, agrees. A former cadet and now an engineering student at Ryerson University in Toronto, Syed is a member of the Cadets Instructors Cadre that supervises and teaches youngsters. Syed says the organization helps many first-generation Canadians and new arrivals feel more comfortable in their new country. "It gives cadets a sense of belonging, confidence and a chance to make friends," he says.
It is not just visible-minority immigrants who are helping fuel diversity in the cadet ranks. Increased interest from Aboriginal communities is also drawing more native youth into Cadets Canada. Taylia Robson, 14, from Owen Sound, Ont., and Amanda Montreuil, 13, from Hamilton, for instance, are in their second year at Blackdown camp, where they have become friends. "You get a lot of opportunities here," says Robson, explaining why she joined up.
It's the same in Terrace, B.C., where 35 of the 40 air cadets are from local Tsimshian tribes. Melodie Johnson, a cultural teacher with the Kitsumkalum band, says Aboriginal youth get a lot of experiences with the cadets they wouldn't get anywhere else. "They are not always exposed to cultural learning at home," says Johnson, who designs the cultural programming for the Terrace air cadet unit. "We try to teach them about our way of life." Students learn the histories of their bands, about the matriarchal nature of Aboriginal societies and what their Indian names mean.
"For years, native people were shunted off into a corner because no one promoted the cadet program to them," says Capt. Ken MacKenzie, head of the Terrace unit. "And there was also a reluctance on their part to get involved with organizations outside their culture." But that's changing. By adopting native culture into the regular cadet programming, MacKenzie says, the Terrace cadets have succeeded in slowly bringing native groups into the fold.
Multiculturalism aside, the cadets have also become more gender-balanced over the last three decades. Anywhere you look at the Blackdown camp, you see young women marching, climbing over rope bridges, learning first aid and doing a host of activities associated with the program. Capt. Stephen Roberts, 59, says this level of female participation couldn't have happened without a change in Canadian values. "When I was a cadet almost 50 years ago, I didn't see any females," says Roberts, the cadets' spokesman at Borden. "Women now have more freedom to do what they want, and that is why you are seeing more of them in the military, flying commercial jets, becoming firefighters."
For 14-year-old Amy Kalita, there's no mystery about what draws girls like her to the cadets -- the adventure of rock climbing, rappelling and canoeing. On this day, Kalita, a two-year Borden veteran from West Lorne, Ont., has been out in the sun for more than two hours building a raft with rope, logs and plastic barrels. "It's a lot of fun," she says. "My friends are jealous when I tell them what I do at camp." This kind of word-of-mouth advertising has been invaluable to Cadets Canada, says Roberts. "We have a lot of girls who learn about the program from their girlfriends." Add some cadet brochures with pictures of smiling women performing CPR, aiming a rifle and skiing, and you get a winning formula, he says.
Still, Michelle-Ann Hall, a 17-year-old warrant officer from Brampton, Ont., is somewhat of a rarity at this camp. Not only is she a squadron leader, she's also female and black. Hall says she has noticed tremendous change in her five years with the cadets. "My group is more dominated by East Asians and blacks," she says. "There are a lot fewer white people than there used to be." Hall is also seeing more women in the senior ranks of the cadets. Asked if she has encountered any problems as a minority woman, she shakes her head. "This is a merit-based system," she affirms.
As for Cheung and Tsang, the question of diversity doesn't seem to matter in this world where everyone dresses in the same faded green cargo pants and T-shirts, eats in the same mess halls, and sweats under the same hot sun. What matters, Cheung says, is that "everyone has been nice."


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## Bruce Monkhouse (28 Dec 2008)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> And yes, I know it is a very old thread. I, personally, prefer to resurrect old threads that have relevant details rather than just start a new one.



..and as one who spends hours merging threads I thank you and all those that do the same.
Now back to your regular scheduled topic.


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## Edward Campbell (4 Jan 2009)

I wonder if Christie Blatchford may have been reading this thread; in any event, in a 1 Jan 09 column, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the _Globe and Mail_ web site, she picks up the letter that caught my eye and on  tonykeene’s observations that:

•	The regular force recruiting base is not Canada as a whole but rather, is mainly in small town and rural Canada; and

•	Reserve units in major urban centres like Toronto are more reflective of the diverse urban population.
-------------------- 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090101.wblatch01/BNStory/Afghanistan/home

 Canada's face in Afghanistan doesn't fully show its diversity

CHRISTIE BLATCHFORD
Globe and Mail

January 1, 2009 at 7:48 AM EST

It's a simple enough question, posed in a note this week from a reader who asked it first in a recent letter to the editor of the Vancouver Sun, which chose not to run it.

"It was heartbreaking in the Dec. 6 Sun to see the faces - so young, once so alive - of the 100 Canadians who have given their lives for their country, fighting in Afghanistan," he wrote.

"If a picture of 100 Canadians was taken today, you could count on it being politically correct, with our multiculturalism front and centre. But our multiculturalism was nowhere to be seen in the photos of our fallen.

"Does anybody have an answer for this?"

Since he first wrote the letter, six more Canadians have died in service to Canada, the bodies of the three most recent casualties - Private Michael Freeman of the 3rd Battalion, the Royal Canadian Regiment; Sergeant Gregory John Kruse, from 2 Combat Engineer Regiment, and Warrant Officer Gaétan Roberge, a Van Doo attached to the 2nd Battalion, The Irish Regiment of Canada - arriving back in Canada only two days ago.

These three have much in common with their fellow fallen. They were killed, as so many others have been, by an improvised explosive device, or IED. They were young; the average age of the Canadian soldier killed in Kandahar is 28.6 years.

And they were white men, as were all but five of the 106 Canadian soldiers who have died in Afghanistan - the exceptions (though I suspect they might have quarrelled with such a distinction and may not have "self-identified" as such) Trooper Michael Hayakaze, a Japanese-Canadian; WO Hani Massouh, who was Egyptian by birth though raised in Canada and an experienced veteran of the Canadian Forces; two black Canadians, Pte. Mark Graham and Corporal Ainsworth Dyer, and one woman, Captain Nichola Goddard.

So back to my reader's observation, right on the money, that virtually any other sampling of 100 Canadians - certainly any government poster and almost any advertisement - would include black, brown, aboriginal and female faces in ostensible mirror image of how they occur in the population at large, and his question about the lack of same among the Canadian war dead, or, as he put it in his note to me, why "a certain segment of our population is doing the heavy lifting?"

Part of the answer, and this is what I wrote the reader, is that it usually takes new immigrants - and as the 2006 census reports, fully 75 per cent of the immigrants who arrived in Canada between 2001 and 2006 belonged to a visible minority group - a couple of generations before soldiering is seen as a respectable career and/or a couple of generations before immigrant children feel liberated enough to defy their parents' wishes. Many Canadian immigrants hail from countries where the military and policing are carried out by thugs in uniform; it takes time for a family to understand that in this country, soldiering is an honourable profession.

Certainly, the military has attempted to increase representation by women, visible minorities and aboriginal people and has set itself noble goals - recruiting objectives of 28 per cent, 9 per cent and 3 per cent respectively so as to achieve a fix - which it then fails to reach. The most recent information I can find (and it may be that I am merely inept at searching the National Defence website) dates to 2000, and shows that over all, women make up about 15 per cent of Forces members, visible minorities and aboriginal Canadians less than 5 per cent each. The site is chock-a-block with stern reprimands that the "snail-like pace toward equitable representation" must be remedied.

But among all the colour-coded charts I saw, one hints at what I think is the more accurate answer. This shows that among reserve units, visible minority and female representation is almost 10 and 20 per cent respectively. That also accords with my anecdotal observation that the Toronto reserve units really reflect the city's diversity, particularly among army cadets, where, as I recall it from seeing the 48th Highlanders on parade, there are more black and brown faces than white.

And that's where the 2006 Statistics Canada census data really tell the tale.

Yes, Canada is a country of immigrants. Yes, the visible minority population is five-million-plus and growing fast. Yes, Statscan predicts that if current trends continue, visible minorities will account for about one-fifth of the total population by 2017. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

But take the province of Ontario, for instance, which has 2,476,565 visible-minority citizens. Almost half of them - 46 per cent - are in Toronto. The other 1.5 million or so folks are spread out across the enormous province, mostly in urban areas. In Peterborough, which has lost two native sons to Afghanistan, the visible minority population is 2.4 per cent. In Sarnia, it is about 3.4 per cent.

It's much the same in British Columbia, where for the first time in the 2006 census, visible minorities passed the one million mark, accounting for almost a quarter of the population of the province - the highest percentage for any province or territory.

But guess what? Almost 87 per cent of those visible minorities live in one urban area - Vancouver.

What I think this really means, and how it goes some distance to explaining the white maleness of Canadian casualties, is what a soldier friend said when I posed to him my reader's question: "While Canada has a good-sized immigrant population," he said, "it is not nearly as vast as people like to let the CBC delude them into thinking ... I think the military is a fairly solid representation of the actual multicultural Canada.

"It's sort of like the difference between the French Resistance of romantic memory and the actual, substantially smaller French Resistance."

In other words, this divide is less one about white and non-white faces. It is rather - as with many of the other divides in the country - an urban-rural or a city-small town one. I would have guessed, for instance, that the sons of Atlantic Canada accounted for more than its share of the dead, yet the greatest number of the fallen, by far, come from Ontario - 32 of them, only two of whom were Toronto boys. It is the small towns of Ontario - from Keswick, Kenora, Hamilton, Napanee, Orangeville, Niagara Falls - which have suffered so grievously.

Our vision of our country's makeup is skewed, no doubt bolstered by years of ethnically unbalanced government propaganda and advertising posters. It turns out our fallen sons, and one daughter, reflect Canada as, outside the major cities, she remains.

And they have really only one ethnicity, as my soldier pal says - they want to serve.
--------------------

That sums it up pretty well, doesn’t it?


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## geo (4 Jan 2009)

> And they have really only one ethnicity, as my soldier pal says - they want to serve.



Couldn't say it any better Edward - thanks for sharing


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## Infanteer (4 Jan 2009)

Ms Blatchford has looked at it from one angle.  But taking the deaths of our soldiers as a sampling of the CF's makeup may be a little off.

Look at it by trade - Of the 106 that have died, I count 72 Infantrymen.  34 are members of other trades, and of these 21 are from the other 3 Combat Arms (10 Armour, 5 Artillery, and 6 Engineer).  This leaves 13 from supporting trades.

I have no information for the wounded, but I can only assume that the ratios are probably similar.  This means roughly 75% of friendly KIA are from the Infantry while roughly 90% are from the Combat Arms.  These make sense due to the nature of this conflict.

I only bring this up to show that casualties are coming from only a part of the CF.  Making guesses about the CF as a whole from this is probably erroneous.


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## geo (4 Jan 2009)

Infanteer.. have you tried to do stats on PPCLI, RCR, R22R ???

not a purdy picture

(though I wouldn't try to draw conclusions from that)


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## Infanteer (4 Jan 2009)

I would be careful about drawing conclusions from that as well.

Different Regiments were there at different times.  Time and space mean alot - what else was going on in theater/the world.  What was going on in RC South.  What kind of gear we had on the ground.  Command personalities, both at unit and formation level.  Time of year (summer seems to be a campaign season, although this theory is now being questioned).  And let's not forget the enemy has a vote as well.  The operational outlook and plans of the Taliban and other insurgent forces was most likely different in the summer of 2006 then in the winter of 2009.

I wouldn't take that comparison anywhere....


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## TCBF (4 Jan 2009)

- Hard for young people to join an Army when they are not really sure where their loyalties are.  Easy to hold two citizenships at once - not easy to be in two armies at once.

- As long as Canada remains a 'passport of convenience' for those who merely want to escape prosecution in their homelands when times are tough, we will not be able to harness the full military potential of our new citizens.

- Sad to say, the notion of blanket dual citizenship is obsolete.  It should be on a case by case basis, country by country.  In other words, as soon as another given country accepts me as a citizen, my Canadian citizenship goes up for review.  That - plus exit controls and stronger residency requirements - should cut out a lot of the plastic Canadians.


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## geo (4 Jan 2009)

Infanteer,
T'was my point.... the stats can make people start thinking in a whole bunch of different directions BUT, in the end, none of them mean much.


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## Command-Sense-Act 105 (4 Jan 2009)

There are lies, damn lies and statistics...


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## geo (5 Jan 2009)

... which are lies hidden in number games....


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## YZT580 (6 Jan 2009)

It is possible that the home town is more significant than the heritage.  Consider young people coming from the Toronto or Montreal area where authority of any type is suspect and the military is regularly flailed by most of the media and also, sadly, by the school system.  There is also very little respect for our own nation  either encouraged or taught.  Instead they teach a 'what's in it for me' and the 'system' is out to get you kind of philosophy.  If Che and Yassar and others of that ilk are the heros, what chance to those kids have of discovering a Buzz Beurling and trying to emulate him?  In other words, in response to both Christie and the originator of this stream, I maintain that the CF reflects our educational background and home city (in Canada) rather than our ethnic heritage.


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## quadrapiper (5 Feb 2009)

Looking into the future, from the West Coast: many of Greater Vancouver's Sea Cadet (and, I'd assume, Army and Air...) units are incredibly minority-heavy (generally Chinese).

Whether or not the current generation of Chinese cadets join _Discovery _and the reserve regiments of the Lower Mainland in any numbers, they still represent future parents less likely to view "uniformed service" with the same Confucian disdain and PRC-induced loathing as _their_ parents. Wait a few more decades: many of Canada's visible minority communities have really only been in-country in any sort of force for a couple generations - I'm thinking especially of Chinese on the West Coast, and Haitians and others of African and Caribbean descent in the East.


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