# Legendary British warship 'found' - BBC News



## Yrys (1 Feb 2009)

Legendary British warship 'found'






An artist's impression of how HMS 
Victory may have looked

A US-based salvage firm is believed to have found remains from the wreck 
of a legendary British warship which sank in the English Channel in 1744.

Odyssey Marine Exploration is expected to announce on Monday that it has 
found HMS Victory, the forerunner of Nelson's famous flagship of the same 
name. The valuables from the vessel, including brass cannons, could be 
worth millions of pounds, some experts say. If confirmed, the find could 
trigger a row with the British government.

The remains from HMS Victory have been reportedly found in international 
waters. But as a military wreck, they officially belong to the British state.

*'Gold coins'*

Ahead of the expected announcement at a news conference in London on 
Monday, Odyssey Marine Exploration's CEO Greg Stemm said the firm was 
negotiating with Britain over collaborating on the project.

"This is a big one, just because of the history," Mr Stemm was quoted as 
saying by the Associated Press. "Very rarely do you solve an age-old mystery 
like this." Mr Stemm declined to reveal the exact location of the warship's 
remains. "We found this more than 50 miles (80km) from where anybody 
would have thought it went down," he said.

HMS Victory has been described by some maritime experts as "the finest ship 
in the world" at its time. It sank with more than 1,100 seamen aboard, including 
Admiral Sir John Balchen, in a fierce storm off the Channel Islands.

The ship's exact location has since remained a mystery, despite numerous attempts 
by salvagers to find it. The vessel had 100 brass cannons and reportedly some 
100,000 gold coins on board.

In 2007, Odyssey said it had salvaged 17 tonnes of gold and silver coins, worth 
$500m (£343m), from a shipwreck in the North Atlantic. The Spanish government 
later sued the company, claiming the the sunken ship was a famous 19th-Century 
Spanish galleon. The case is pending.


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## kkwd (1 Feb 2009)

There were 1050 lives lost in this sinking. The ship should be considered a grave and left alone.


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## ltmaverick25 (1 Feb 2009)

You make a good point, but, there may also be some value in restoring it as a monument so that the public may be reminded of their sacrifice.


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## kkwd (1 Feb 2009)

That would be very good if all the money recovered, past expenses to bring it up, were used in the memorial.


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## ltmaverick25 (1 Feb 2009)

Thats a pretty good idea, it will be interesting to see what they work out.  Something tells me it wont purely be altruistic.


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## kkwd (1 Feb 2009)

A private enterprise certainly would not want to do it this way. Maybe they could invoke the British Treasure Act and get a fair market value of the goods. But this treasure is Blood Treasure so that act might not apply. Anyway, we will see what the British government says when the finders negotiate with them.


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Feb 2009)

kkwd said:
			
		

> There were 1050 lives lost in this sinking. The ship should be considered a grave and left alone.



So were the Vasa and the Mary Rose, By raising the ships and their cargo, the sad deaths of the sailors have given a remarkable treasure to the world. It gave their death some meaning other than dying due to bad design.


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## Rifleman62 (2 Feb 2009)

I have been interested with this company’s exploits for several years.

Odyssey Marine Exploration: http://shipwreck.net/ff/index.php?query=susse&type=simple

The current search is on TV. I believe that episode 2 is the discovery of HMS Victory. The target was coded and at the end of the episode, they were off to consult with the Ministry of Defense. Apparently, the 20 ft 42 pounder, brass cannons were only mounted on “battleships” of the era. The 42 pounder (caliber) refers to the shot that was fired. The discovery of many large caliber *brass* cannons was a hint that they found the target they were searching for. They were careful to take any “intrusive action” on the site. Their ship was buzzed by French Navy maritime patrol aircraft and a helicopter in episode 3, but referred to in episode 1 and 2. Out of sequence as are many series (my TV info system states episode number, original viewing date, date of production, description, etc)   Number four on this week.

Odyssey Expeditions on Television!

On Thursday, January 15th at 10PM EST/PST, our eyes will be glued to Discovery Channel for the world premiere of “Treasure Quest” - a new 11-episode series about Odyssey’s shipwreck expeditions. 


HMS Sussex (Oct 02): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1410045/The-Treasurys-ship-comes-in.html

$500M Treasure Ship Found In Atlantic (May 07): http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/18/national/main2824740.shtml

Their ship was seized by  Spain on this adventure.


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## geo (2 Feb 2009)

> The remains from HMS Victory have been reportedly found in international waters. But as a military wreck, they officially belong to the British state.



This says it all.... doesn't it ?

Not sure you can compare this wreck to that of the VASA & the Mary Rose... 
Also... is there a need for another ship from roughly the same period as the other HMS Victory?
The time and money needed to be spent on the preservation of these artefacts won't justify the cost AND considering the economic hardship currently happening in Britain - I think that this one is a "non-starter"... IMHO


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## Yrys (2 Feb 2009)

Another article on the same subject :

264-year-old wreck of British warship found





The Bronze cannon on the shipwreck site of HMS Victory bearing 
the royal crest of King George I, in the English Channel. The legendary 
British man-of-war that sank in the English Channel 264 years ago. 
Odyssey Marine Exploration hasn't found any gold this time, but it's 
looking for an even bigger jackpot.


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## Brad Sallows (3 Feb 2009)

What's the difference between "grave" and "historical treasure"?  200 years?  I suppose battleship fanciers will have to wait until 2145 or so to ogle parts of the Yamato and Musashi raised for display.


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## kkwd (3 Feb 2009)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> What's the difference between "grave" and "historical treasure"?  200 years?  I suppose battleship fanciers will have to wait until 2145 or so to ogle parts of the Yamato and Musashi raised for display.



It's different when you raise artifacts to educate the public of past lives and times. As opposed to plundering the wreck for gold to buy yourself a condo in Bermuda.


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## geo (4 Feb 2009)

well... if the British gov't decides to enforce security on their property... I guess they can send in the RN to seize the plunderers... as was done by the spaniards a couple of years ago.


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## Brad Sallows (4 Feb 2009)

Different?  I suppose that's why museums have been returning artifacts looted from burial grounds in Canada.


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## geo (4 Feb 2009)

... but the British Royal Museum still won't return the Parthenon frescoes


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## Rifleman62 (6 Feb 2009)

Episode 4 was on last night, confirming the wreck coded as Legend at position 25C was HMS Victory .  

The following is the corrected statement from my first post: Apparently, the *12* ft 42 pounder, *bronze* cannons were only mounted on “battleships” of the era. The 42 pounder (caliber) refers to the shot that was fired. The discovery of many large caliber *bronze* cannons was a hint that they found the target they were searching for.

They recovered a 42 pounder (to prove the identity of the ship to MOD) and got a precise measurement of 12ft, weighing 4 tons. Range would have been 1 1/2 miles. HMS Victory was the only 18th century ship to carry 42 pounders.

The first 42 pounder they where going to recover was over the top of the remains of a crewman. As they moved a cannon ball near the cannon, it was discovered the cannon ball had teeth. Work was stopped and the remains reinterned. Moved to a second 42 pounder.

Anyone else watching this programme?


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## geo (6 Feb 2009)

Didn't watch - will catch it on the reruns....
Glad to hear that they paid adequate respect to the soldiers & sailors who lie burried there.
This will probably give them some brownie points when dealing with the MoD & obtaining permission to continue


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## starseed (6 Feb 2009)

It would be surprising if the British government didn't take a particular interest in this wreck and ensure it is handled respectfully, given that we are talking about an HMS Victory. It's successor was, after all, Nelson's Flagship at Trafalgar (it's since been restored and is the current ceremonial flagship for the Royal Navy)


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## kkwd (6 Feb 2009)

It's nice to see they treated the remains with respect and hopefully they will do the same during the rest of their expedition. I just wonder how many more hundreds of skulls they will find going through the wreck.


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## Ex-Dragoon (7 Feb 2009)

starseed said:
			
		

> It would be surprising if the British government didn't take a particular interest in this wreck and ensure it is handled respectfully, given that we are talking about an HMS Victory. It's successor was, after all, Nelson's Flagship at Trafalgar (it's since been restored and is the current ceremonial flagship for the Royal Navy)



Actually _Victory_ is the Flagship for the Naval Home Command  and the Second Sea Lord whose responsibilities are shore installations and personnel, not the Royal Navy.


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## reccecrewman (24 Feb 2009)

Is HMS Victory a grave? Absolutely.... however, so are the battlefields of the first world war in which thousands of artifacts have been unearthed, cleaned up and sent to museums. Men have been dug up from the soil of France and Belgium for decades, and re-buried in places of honour. We seem to have no objections to this, so why the big deal with a warship? Not to sound cold and callous, but it's the same thing painted with a different brush that we accept with digging up WWI trench sections. As long as the people involved with the ship handle the remains of any crewmen found with dignity and respect, it shouldn't be a major issue. My .02 anyway.


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## geo (24 Feb 2009)

recce
The fields of France and Flanders - where most of the digging has taken place... are not considered cemetaries or wargraves.... the bodies found are MIAs presumed KIA.

WRT sunken warships - they are considered a war grave... a cemetary of sorts.... and we have not been in the habbit of digging up cemetaries - have we ?


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## Colin Parkinson (24 Feb 2009)

Actually yes we have. Several graveyards were moved due to flooding by dams. London UK has a policy to turm old graveyards into other uses after a period of time from the burial. In fact HMCS Discovery was an old Indian burial ground.


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## geo (25 Feb 2009)

Colin, I would not compare the moving a cemetary, from one location to another, to the selective looting of a maritive grave site.


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## Colin Parkinson (27 Feb 2009)

You might if the cemetery was being flooded without warning as happened with the Williston lake project or have it washing away as with the Ootsa lake project. The details are different, but the lack of respect was heavily felt by the residents and still is a sore spot.


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## Yrys (4 Jun 2009)

Same company :

Spain awarded shipwreck treasure







A deep sea treasure-hunting company has been ordered by a US judge to hand over 
half a million gold and silver coins to the government of Spain.

The company, Odyssey Marine Exploration, raised the haul from a shipwreck in the 
Atlantic, suspected to be that of a Spanish naval vessel. The Spanish government 
argued that the treasure formed part of the country's national heritage. But Odyssey 
intends to appeal, saying it has a claim to the treasure.

This is just the latest round of a long-running and sometimes murky dispute, says the 
BBC's Steve Kingstone in Madrid. The haul of coins - thought to be worth some $500m 
(£308m) - came to light in 2007, when Odyssey announced the recovery of artefacts 
from a wreck in the Atlantic.

It kept the location of the wreck secret, in what it said was an attempt to deter looters.

The haul was brought ashore in Gibraltar and quickly flown to Miami - enraging the 
Spanish government, our correspondent says, which says the wreck is that of the 
Mercedes, a naval frigate destroyed by the British in 1804.

*'Private property'*

Just over a year ago, the Spanish government filed a suit with a federal court in Florida 
- where Odyssey is based - demanding the haul be handed over. Late on Wednesday, a 
judge ruled that the court lacked jurisdiction over the case, and that the property should 
be returned to Spain under a principle known as "sovereign immunity".

Spain's Culture Minister Angeles Gonzalez-Sinde expressed joy at the decision. "It's a very 
positive decision for the Spanish government and for all the Spanish citizens because it 
guarantees that this ship and the remains of this ship will come back to Spain, which was 
originally the owner of this ship," he told the BBC. "I am pretty sure that Spaniards will 
have the opportunity to travel back in time and to have a chance to see this treasure."

But in a statement, Odyssey said it would appeal against the ruling. The Nasdaq-listed 
company argues that there is no conclusive proof that the wreck is that of the Mercedes 
and that even if it is, much of the cargo on board the ship belonged to private individuals 
and not the Spanish state.

"I'm confident that ultimately the judge or the appellate court will see the legal and 
evidentiary flaws in Spain's claim, and we'll be back to argue the merits of the case," 
said the firm's CEO, Greg Stemm.


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## Yrys (22 Jun 2009)

Delving the secrets of HMS Victory

HMS Victory bucket is auctioned

In pictures: Channel shipwrecks
Picture 1 : German U-boat
Pictures 2,4,5 : HMS Victory
Pictures 3, 6, 7, 8, 9: Unidentified shipwrecks


*HMS Victory tour*:

Quarter Deck
Lower Gun Deck
Sketch of Battle Plan


Speaking of shipwreck :
China to excavate cabins on 800-year-old recovered merchant wreck, The Daily Star

Chinese archaeologists have won permission to start an "excavation" into 
the cabins of the 800-year-old shipwrecked merchant vessel Nanhai No. 1, 
the local government said Sunday.

The municipal government of Yangjiang, Guangdong Province, where the 
Nanhai No.1 boat has been preserved since it was hoisted from a depth of 
30 meters below the South China Sea at the end of 2007, won permission 
from the State Administration of Cultural Heritage in May for the "excavation",
 Feng Shaowen, director with the municipal publicity bureau, told Xinhua.

The 30-meter-long vessel ship has been soaked in a sealed pool in the "Crystal 
Palace" at the Marine Silk Road Museum in Yangjiang. The glass pool - 64 meters 
long, 40 meters wide, 23 meters high and about 12 meters in depth - was filled 
with sea water and silt to replicate the water temperature, pressure and other 
environmental conditions of the seabed where the vessel had lain for centuries.

The details of the excavation have not been released so far but it could last three 
to five years.

Construction of the Marine Silk Road Museum began in early 2006,costing 170 million 
yuan (24.9 million U.S. dollars). Discovered in mid 1987 off the coast near Yangjiang, 
Nanhai No.1 was recognized as one of the oldest and biggest merchant boats sunk 
in Chinese waters. Archaeologists have already recovered more than 4,000 artifacts 
including gold, silver and porcelain, as well as about 6,000 copper coins from the 
Song Dynasty (960-1279) boat. Among the 1,000 delicate porcelain wares, many were 
made by handicraftsmen to feature foreign porcelain patterns and styles, said Feng.

The well-preserved vessel might confirm the existence of an ancient maritime trade 
route linking China and the West. As early as 2,000 years ago, ancient Chinese traders
began taking china, silk and cloth textiles and other commodities to foreign countries 
along the trading route. It started from ports at today's Guangdong and Fujian provinces 
to countries in southeast Asia, Africa and Europe.

The 'Marine Silk Road', like the ancient Silk Road that connected China with south, west 
and central Asia and Europe, was also a bridge for connecting Eastern and Western cultures,
but evidence for the existence of the route is rare, said Huang Zongwei, professor with 
the Guangdong-based Sun Yat-Sen University.


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## Yrys (29 Jul 2009)

I'll use the following article (which may not warrant its own thread?),
to bump that up .

Ancient Roman shipwrecks found





_Much of the cargo is still intact_

Underwater archaeologists in Italy have discovered the wrecks of five ancient Roman ships
in the Mediterranean, with their cargo still largely intact. The ships are lying in up to 150 
metres (500 feet) of water off the tiny island of Ventotene, between Rome and Naples. They 
are between 1,600 and 1,900 years old, and were laden with - among other things - jars 
for carrying wine, olive oil and fish sauce.

One expert said: "It is like an underwater museum."

Also on board were kitchen tools, and certain metal and glass objects which have not yet 
been identified. The discovery of wrecked ships is not unusual - there are said to be 
thousands dotted around the Mediterranean.

But Annalisa Zarattini, from the Italian Culture Ministry, said the latest to be found are 
much better preserved than usual because they sank in deeper water, which protected 
them from destructive currents. The ships also sank without capsizing, she said, allowing 
examination of the cargo in almost the form it had been loaded.

Officials say the latest finds are the result of a new drive by archaeologists to scan deeper 
waters, organised by the culture ministry and the Aurora Trust, a maritime research group.
The plan was prompted in part by a desire to prevent the looting of treasures.

Because of improving technology, looters are now able to dive to greater depths than in the 
past. "It's important that we arrive there first," said Ms Zarattini. The team of archaeologists
and deep sea divers used sonar technology and miniature robotic submarines in their latest 
operation.

The biggest of the ships discovered is about 20 metres long (60 feet). The area they were 
found in was on a major route for trade between Rome and its North African territories.
Some of the objects are being put on display on Ventotene. 





_Italian authorities are trying 
to stay ahead of looters_


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