# Montreal police ticket veteran bagpiper for carrying traditional knife



## Occam (4 Nov 2016)

:facepalm:

Original link

Montreal police ticket veteran bagpiper for carrying traditional knife


John Meagher, Montreal Gazette

Published on: November 4, 2016 | Last Updated: November 4, 2016 10:12 AM EDT 

Jeff McCarthy might be the closest thing to a professional bagpiper in Montreal. You may have seen him playing the pipes at the downtown Ogilvy store, or occasionally parading through Montreal streets as a member of Canada’s famed Black Watch Royal Highland Regiment.

So the veteran piper was understandably upset on Wednesday afternoon when he was handed a $221 ticket by police for wearing a sgian-dubh (pronounced skin-do), a small knife that is a common accessory for men in traditional Scottish dress.

McCarthy, who was wearing a kilt, was cornered then ticketed by police officers who approached him after they spotted the knife tucked into his kilt hose while McCarthy was taking a break outside Place des Arts during a McGill University convocation ceremony.  

“As I was walking by these three police officers, one of them … asked me, ‘Is that a knife?’ and I said, ‘Absolutely’.

“I started to explain to her what it was and why I wear it. It didn’t take her long to turn around say, ‘This is illegal.’ And I was pretty shocked and surprised because I’ve been playing the pipes for almost 27 years and I’ve never been stopped for carrying a sgian-dubh.”

McCarthy, 48, attempted to explain to police, who were later joined by two STM public security officers, that the knife is strictly Scottish cultural attire and not intended for use as a weapon.

“I explained … that’s it’s part of the costume, it’s not a weapon per se. It’s an accoutrement to what is considered a traditional Highland costume.”

Police were not swayed and confiscated the knife. McCarthy has not yet decided if he will contest the ticket, which amounted to about half his salary that day. 

“There is no religious significance to the knife, but there is a cultural significance. I think that needs to be respected,” he said.

The fluently bilingual McCarthy comes from an ethnically diverse family. His father is of Irish and French descent, while his mother is of Jamaican descent.

McCarthy, whose grandmother was Scottish, said he felt his ancestry was being targeted by police.

“It’s sort of like crushing a culture, and it’s disrespecting a culture,” he said. “There are four things on the Montreal flag and one of them is decidedly Scottish (the thistle). You’d think there would be some respect in terms of that.”

McCarthy says there are many law-abiding members of Montreal’s Scottish community who will be surprised to hear of his run-in with the cops.

“My concern is that Scottish people in general are going to be targeted for wearing a sgian-dubh. Certain questions come to mind: Are they going to set up a paddy wagon in front of the Highland Games?

“Are they going to be bring in the task force when they hold the annual St. Andrew’s Ball in a couple of weeks? Let me tell you, there are lot of people there wearing a sgian-dubh.”

McCarthy, a lifelong Montrealer, said the whole affair has left him with a bad taste in his pipes.

It only made matters worse when one of the STM security officers told him he was “dishonouring my unit and dishonouring the (Canadian) forces by behaving the way I was behaving.”

Police chose not to comment on the matter when contacted Thursday.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Nov 2016)

Hot pants police eh?



> Canada
> 
> The Canadian Criminal Code criminalises the possession of knives which open automatically. Section 84(1) defines "a knife that has a blade that opens automatically by gravity or centrifugal force or by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device attached to or in the handle of the knife" as a prohibited weapon.[13] Only persons who have been granted exemption by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police through the Canadian Firearms Program are allowed to possess (but not acquire) prohibited weapons.
> 
> ...



Buddy should fight it because that knife doesn't sound prohibited to me.


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## mariomike (4 Nov 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Buddy should fight it because that knife doesn't sound prohibited to me.



Four pages on that,

Question on legal knife length in Canada  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/103806.75


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## GR66 (4 Nov 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Hot pants police eh?
> 
> Buddy should fight it because that knife doesn't sound prohibited to me.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like he was charged with a Criminal Code offence but issued a ticket.  Did a (very) little searching and found reference to a City of Montreal Bylaw regarding knives:


1.  In this by-law, "public place" means a place to which the public has access by express or tacit invitation.

2.  No person carrying or having in his possession a knife, sword, machete or other similar weapon, without a reasonable excuse, may be in a public place, street, park, public square, on foot or in a transit vehicle.
        For the purposes of this article, self-defence does not constitute a reasonable excuse.

3.  Any person who contravenes this by-law is guilty of an offence and is liable: (1) for a first offence, to a fine of $150 to $300; (2) for a second offence, to a fine of $300 to $500; (3) for a subsequent offence, to a fine of $500 to $1000.


As a piper invited to perform at an official function as a piper in traditional scottish dress I'd certainly say he has grounds to argue that he has a "reasonable excuse" for carrying the knife.


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Nov 2016)

GR66 said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like he was charged with a Criminal Code offence but issued a ticket.  Did a (very) little searching and found reference to a City of Montreal Bylaw regarding knives:



You beat me to posting the by-law that he was ticketed for.

One of the consequences of expressing an opinion based solely on incomplete information gleaned from a single source is that the opinion is flawed.  Several other stories about the same incident were more comprehensive in their reporting such as the CBC 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-bagpiper-fined-220-for-carrying-traditional-knife-1.3835762


> . . .
> McCarthy was ticketed under a municipal bylaw that prohibits anyone from carrying a knife or "similar weapon" in a public place or transit vehicle "without a reasonable excuse."
> . . .



I agree that he would likely be able to offer a "reasonable excuse", however by a strict reading of the by-law, I have also been guilty of the same offence in that, while visiting Montreal, I was in a public place and attached to my key ring was a Swiss Army pen knife (that had been so attached since 1979).


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## ModlrMike (4 Nov 2016)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> You beat me to posting the by-law that he was ticketed for.
> 
> One of the consequences of expressing an opinion based solely on incomplete information gleaned from a single source is that the opinion is flawed.  Several other stories about the same incident were more comprehensive in their reporting such as the CBC
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-bagpiper-fined-220-for-carrying-traditional-knife-1.3835762
> I agree that he would likely be able to offer a "reasonable excuse", however by a strict reading of the by-law, I have also been guilty of the same offence in that, while visiting Montreal, I was in a public place and attached to my key ring was a Swiss Army pen knife (that had been so attached since 1979).



I would also argue that the bylaw is overly broad, in that it relies on the officer to determine what a "reasonable excuse" is. A far too subjective determination for my liking. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall similar provisions being struck down in the past.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Nov 2016)

Like I said the knife isn't considered prohibited and reading the bylaw,  ambiguous as it sounds,  I'd say he can fight the ticket on the grounds that he falls under the reasonable excuse category.


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## dapaterson (4 Nov 2016)

So, Scots with a skean dhu = OK and part of their culture.  Are we equally understanding for Sikhs and a kirpan?


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## jollyjacktar (4 Nov 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, Scots with a skean dhu = OK and part of their culture.  Are we equally understanding for Sikhs and a kirpan?


I'm cool with it as long as it's not used as a weapon.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Nov 2016)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> I'm cool with it as long as it's not used as a weapon.



It already is a weapon, decorative surely, but still a weapon.


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## kratz (4 Nov 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> So, Scots with a skean dhu = OK and part of their culture.  Are we equally understanding for Sikhs and a kirpan?



Thank you. I had the same thought. Make it a 'religious' item and it is exempt?


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## Jarnhamar (4 Nov 2016)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It already is a weapon, decorative surely, but still a weapon.



No disagreement here. Logically it's silly to ban an item in the context of safety yet make it legal for religious or culture reasons.


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## SupersonicMax (4 Nov 2016)

Is there a reason to have a real knife vs a fake, plastic knife?


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Is there a reason to have a real knife vs a fake, plastic knife?



Would you parade on Remembrance Day with rubber rifles? Or as an Officer with a wooden sword?


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## daftandbarmy (4 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Is there a reason to have a real knife vs a fake, plastic knife?



Because 'Scottish Knives Matter'!!


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## jollyjacktar (4 Nov 2016)

recceguy said:
			
		

> It already is a weapon, decorative surely, but still a weapon.



Used, is the operative word in my concern.  Anything can conceivably be a weapon depending upon it's use.  You could probably be beaten to death with a large rubber dildo I suppose and at that point it would be viewed as a weapon.  As long as the Sikhs/Scots don't want to go all stabby stabby with their decoration, I'm cool with their carrying it as I am aware of it's religious/cultural use.

I suppose as they're no longer allowed to spy on reporters, the Montreal fuzz have to fill their time somehow.  What better way than to pick on a large black man of Scottish/Jamaican heritage wearing what is obviously ladies attire and concealing a baby Claymore down there.  A three-fer....    :nod:


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## dapaterson (4 Nov 2016)

There are some who would say that the bagpipes were the offensive weapon in this case...


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## SupersonicMax (4 Nov 2016)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Would you parade on Remembrance Day with rubber rifles? Or as an Officer with a wooden sword?



It is a but different in that the knife is tucked into the sock and not in view and the sword is in plain view and that riffles generally do not have bolts in them.  Having said that, I would not mind fake swords/riffles for people on parade.  I do not see what having a real knife/sword/riffle brings that the real thing doesn't.


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## Journeyman (4 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It is a but different in that the knife is tucked into the sock and not in view and the sword is in plain view and that riffles generally do not have bolts in them.  Having said that, I would not mind fake swords/riffles for people on parade.  I do not see what having a real knife/sword/riffle brings that the real thing doesn't.


The knife is in view as the handle protrudes above sock; there is no mention of the police officer having x-ray vision.

The rifles do have a bolt in them on parade; it keeps the cocking handle from falling out.

I too am perfectly OK with pilots being restricted to carrying fake swords on parade.


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## Jed (4 Nov 2016)

Journeyman said:
			
		

> The knife is in view as the handle protrudes above sock; there is no mention of the police officer having x-ray vision.
> 
> The rifles do have a bolt in them on parade; it keeps the cocking handle from falling out.
> 
> I too am perfectly OK with pilots being restricted to carrying fake swords on parade.




 :stirpot:  That gave me a good laugh!


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## Retired AF Guy (4 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It is a but different in that the knife is tucked into the sock and not in view and the sword is in plain view and that riffles generally do not have bolts in them.  Having said that, I would not mind fake swords/riffles for people on parade.  I do not see what having a real knife/sword/riffle brings that the real thing doesn't.



I know pilots don't get to handle them very often, but riffles??


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## SupersonicMax (4 Nov 2016)

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> I know pilots don't get to handle them very often, but riffles??



Sorry, my native French coming out...  Rifles

During parades that didn't involve shooting blanks, I don't remember having bolts in my rifles but I may be wrong, it's been a long while. I will defer to those who actually do this more often.



			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> The knife is in view as the handle protrudes above sock; there is no mention of the police officer having x-ray vision.



No need to special x-ray vision.  When confronted by a police officer, proving that the knife isn't real should be sufficient.




			
				Journeyman said:
			
		

> I too am perfectly OK with pilots being restricted to carrying fake swords on parade.



In my time after RMC, I have been involved in exactly 1 parade and it didn't involve any weapon...  You can restrict me all you want, it won't hurt my feelings .

An argument in favour actual weapons on a parade has yet to be presented here and I frankly do not see a requirement for it.  I say if it upsets people in the community and contravenes local bylaws then perhaps we should reconsider how we conduct parades out in towns and cities (or at least get proper authorization to do so)


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## Haggis (4 Nov 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There are some who would say that the bagpipes were the offensive weapon in this case...



I'm surprised that it took 16 posts before someone trotted out this theory.


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## brihard (4 Nov 2016)

Haggis said:
			
		

> I'm surprised that it took 16 posts before someone trotted out this theory.



It was inevitable, but no less funny for that.


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## Kat Stevens (4 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> An argument in favour actual weapons on a parade has yet to be presented here and I frankly do not see a requirement for it.  I say if it upsets people in the community and contravenes local bylaws then perhaps we should reconsider how we conduct parades out in towns and cities (or at least get proper authorization to do so)



Read a freedom of the city proclamation, it covers this nicely.


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## Retired AF Guy (4 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Sorry, my native French coming out...  Rifles



No problem.


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## SupersonicMax (4 Nov 2016)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Read a freedom of the city proclamation, it covers this nicely.



These proclamations are unit specifics.  Units sometimes parade in cities in which they do not have such proclamations, therefore cannot march with "Flying Colors, Bayonettes Fixed and Drums Beating" at will.

I also seem to recall that a unit that desire using that freedom still needs to request it.


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## Jed (4 Nov 2016)

C'mon Super_Max, grow a pair and graduate to handling big boy toys.  [


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## mariomike (4 Nov 2016)

In case anyone is interested,

List of Freedom of the City recipients (military)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freedom_of_the_City_recipients_(military)#Canada


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## Pusser (4 Nov 2016)

mariomike said:
			
		

> In case anyone is interested,
> 
> List of Freedom of the City recipients (military)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Freedom_of_the_City_recipients_(military)#Canada



That list is not up to date.  HMCS YORK has had the freedom of the city of Toronto since at least 1983.  I know because I was there.


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## hugh19 (5 Nov 2016)

I agree. i did HMCS Discovery's second freedom of the city march when I was a brand new OD in 1990. Much before 2010 if my math is correct.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It is a but different in that the knife is tucked into the sock and not in view and the sword is in plain view and that riffles generally do not have bolts in them.  Having said that, I would not mind fake swords/riffles for people on parade.  I do not see what having a real knife/sword/riffle brings that the real thing doesn't.



I'm sorry that someone who drops bombs on people, on behalf of the Canadian government, seems to have trouble with military accoutrements that remind civilians what we do.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It is a but different in that the knife is tucked into the sock and not in view and the sword is in plain view and that riffles generally do not have bolts in them.  Having said that, I would not mind fake swords/riffles for people on parade.  I do not see what having a real knife/sword/riffle brings that the real thing doesn't.



I can see why the Air Force wouldn't issue bolts to their pers. It would take a Combat Arms NCO remuster to teach everyone how to put the bolt in their weapon.

In the real world, weapons don't get issued from stores without their bolts.

If your unit doesn't issue bolts with their rifles, for parade, it's likely because you can't be trusted with a live weapon.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> An argument in favour actual weapons on a parade has yet to be presented here and I frankly do not see a requirement for it.  I say if it upsets people in the community and contravenes local bylaws then perhaps we should reconsider how we conduct parades out in towns and cities (or at least get proper authorization to do so)



We are a martial organisation. Our job is to protect our Sovereign, our country, citizens and our comrades. That transcends any municipal or provincial authority. Rifles, artillery pieces, vehicles, whatever. These are the tools that our citizens have given us to protect them. They deserve to see us, fully kitted out, as their defenders.

If you, for even an iota of a second, don't feel we should be showing the Canadian people what they have paid for, what they can expect, or how we are going to protect them, then you are an idiot of the highest magnitude. 

Have you ever done a fly past at a sports event? Or the opening of something important?

Most of us on Remembrance Day don't have fighter jets to roar past a cenotaph.

The weapon we carry is the one our bosses said we are the most effective with. IT IS the tool of our trade, like your plane.

Go back to your pilot lounge and spend time with your buds talking about how rough you have it compared to the guys living in holes in the ground. You can discuss how using the equipment that your country has given demeans you and how the government are such assholes for having you present yourself to the taxpayers in such a 'violent' arm of said government.

I think Air Canada might be hiring. It's OK though, I refuse to use them, like so many other Canadians, for obvious reasons. I'm sure you'll fit right in.


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## rnkelly (5 Nov 2016)

Recceguy- I agree with your points on why we should be displaying our tools of the trade but don't think the personal attacks or general vitriol towards airforce contributes anything.  As a TacHel guy I have more in common with the army combat arms types then Air Force but in the end we're all on the same team.  

Let's not lose sight of the real problem here; a couple of power tripping loser Montreal Cops.


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## BurmaShave (5 Nov 2016)

> 2.  No person carrying or having in his possession a knife, sword, machete or other similar weapon, without a reasonable excuse, may be in a public place, street, park, public square, on foot or in a transit vehicle.
> For the purposes of this article, self-defence does not constitute a reasonable excuse.



The way I (and, I'd wager, the law) see it, being in Scottish traditional dress is a reasonable excuse. This is just an overreach by police. They happen. Incidents like these are what enshrine legal definitions of what is a reasonable excuse. It's how the legal system works, awkward as it might look at times.

I'm not sure I agree with the duplicates thing. I think, by virtue of being in the armed forces, we ought to be trusted with weapons. Also, maintaining duplicates specifically for parade seems an unneeded hassle. That being said, to my knowledge, we don't issue ammo on parade. There's no reason to. We don't fly bombed up jets over football games. There is no way to take the ammo out of a sword or knife; it's always a weapon. If a city were to take issue with swords/knives, being diplomatic about it would set us in better stead.

Furthermore, flypasts, freedom of the city, what have you: it's not a goddamn right, it's a privilege. Cities make their own rules (bylaws). You can challenge them, if you feel your federally-provided rights are being infringed. I don't have a federally provided right to buzz football games. It's a bloody privilege, afforded to me by cities. They can, and do (Ottawa, last year) prohibit flypasts. I'm not sure if a ban on weapons while marching could be upheld (though I wager a ban on ammo would be), but a city could do that. They make the rules, the courts interpret the rules. Military servicemen are not simply exempt from rules by default.

And Recce? I don't wanna get in DS trouble on my 12th post, but I don't think there's cause to blow up at Max like that.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Nov 2016)

I know you think your RCAF, but TacHel, properly, should be Army ;D

Yes, I get your point, but read carefully. The RCAF is not the object of my scorn.


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## Fishbone Jones (5 Nov 2016)

The point that has to be made, is simply, does a municipal authority have jurisdiction to tell the Federal Government what a soldier is allowed to wear or not.

If the 'offender' was a member of the Black Watch, on an authorised duty, following the dress regulations promulgated by the CAF, Federal Government and the NDA is set upon by the MPD for violation of municipal laws, then Montreal (Quebec) better start remembering they are still part of Canada and not their own fucking country.

"Freedom of the City was an honour granted only to troops which had earned the trust of the local populace, either through some valiant action or simply by being a familiar presence.

Today, martial freedom of the city is an entirely ceremonial honour, usually bestowed upon a unit with historic ties to the area, as a token of appreciation for their long and dedicated service. The awarding of the Freedom is often accompanied by a celebratory parade through the city."


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## BurmaShave (5 Nov 2016)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The point that has to be made, is simply, does a municipal authority have jurisdiction to tell the Federal Government what a soldier is allowed to wear or not.
> 
> If the 'offender' was a member of the Black Watch, on an authorised duty, following the dress regulations promulgated by the CAF, Federal Government and the NDA is set upon by the MPD for violation of municipal laws, then Montreal (Quebec) better start remembering they are still part of Canada and not their own ******* country.
> 
> ...



Ah, I was referring Freedom of the City in the sense of the parade, not the ceremonial honour of carrying weapons. Permission to parade through their streets is granted by the municipal government. It's a privilege.

That's a bit unrelated, though. At issue, is, as rnkelly put it, a couple of power tripping loser Montreal Cops. It's not a military thing, it's just an over-zealous application of the law (which, I might remind you, we're still bound by, even municipal laws (though I'm not sure anyone would have the guts to ticket an illegally parked LAV ;D)). They can go back and review what constitutes a reasonable excuse, at which point they'll conclude that traditional Scottish dress is a reasonable excuse, as they have for Sikhs.


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## SupersonicMax (5 Nov 2016)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I'm sorry that someone who drops bombs on people, on behalf of the Canadian government, seems to have trouble with military accoutrements that remind civilians what we do.



I haven't said I had issues with weapons. But the news story certainly suggests people outside our organization do.  All I said is I don't care either way if we are allowed to carry actual or fake weapons on a parade.  And it is worth questionning our ways and looking into the potential problem.  Is it an overzealous cop?  Maybe.  But judging by the comments when fly-bys and even airshows are conducted there is a fair amount of people upset in Canada by the display of military might.

So, we can tell people they can shut up and tell them they need to see their military with weapons on a parade so they can trust us with weapons or we can look objectively at our organization and see how we fit in the society we protect.

Questionning the established ways is not a bad thing and this forum, being unofficial, open to everyone and not costing the Government a single dime, is a good way to stir ideas for small perceived problems like this.  

If you, as a moderator of all people, can't understand that and feel the need to resort to unwarranted personnal attacks, then I feel sorry for you.

To come back to the subject, the questions that would need answering are:

1- Does the population actually have issues with using weapons on parade?
2- If yes, is there an actual need to carry weapons on a parade?
3- Can we achieve the same "effect" with "fake" weapons?

As far as fly-bys go, never with live weapons on the aircraft and generally at the request from the population.  The only military-driven fly-bys happen on base or during Rememberance Day parade.  The other ones are requested by civilian agencies through 1 CAD.


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## expwor (5 Nov 2016)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Would you parade on Remembrance Day with rubber rifles? Or as an Officer with a wooden sword?



Well my two cents if even worth that, when I was in the Militia, on Remembrance Day not only did we carry a real rifle (FNC1A1...that's how old I am) we put the breech block in and carried the rifle with fixed bayonets. 
To answer your question though, I sure hope not.

Tom


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## QV (5 Nov 2016)

There are far too many precious snowflakes in need of safe spaces these days....or maybe social media just makes that seem to be the case...


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## Jarnhamar (5 Nov 2016)

[quote author=BurmaShave] 

And Recce? I don't wanna get in DS trouble on my 12th post, but I don't think there's cause to blow up at Max like that.
[/quote]

I thought Max meant why not make all cultural and religious weapons/knives plastic/fake.   I thought that was an interesting thought, could be a good debate. 

Reading the story I couldn't tell if this guy was signed in to his reservist job or not.  Musicians do a lot of outsourcing (for lack o a better word). He could be being paid directly by the venue.   If he was on duty I'd launch the high paid military lawyers. 

Police and Leo's often make mistakes with this kind of stuff,  all one needs to do is research non-restricted firearms that look like military style guns. 

*apologize for grammar


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## SupersonicMax (5 Nov 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought Max meant why not male all cultural and religious weapons/knives plastic/fake.   I thought that was an interesting though, could be a good debate



This was my initial intent but someone else broaden the subject and could I not immediately find a valid reason to use actual weapons on parade.  I am happy to be presented with valid reasons.

Edit to clarify


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## BurmaShave (5 Nov 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought Max meant why not male all cultural and religious weapons/knives plastic/fake.   I thought that was an interesting though, could be a good debate.
> 
> Reading the story I couldn't tell if this guy was signed in to his reservist job or not.  Musicians do a lot of outsourcing (for lack o a better word). He could be being paid directly by the venue.   If he was on duty I'd launch the high paid military lawyers.
> 
> Police and Leo's often make mistakes with this kind of stuff,  all one needs to do is research non-restricted firearms that look like military style guns.



Yeah, it seemed an interesting thought to me, too, which is why the blowup at Max and the RCAF bugged me. I'm not sure how much Joe Public cares about Sikhs and Scots with knives, and I'm not sure whether Joe Public's desire for safety is trumped by the rights of traditions. A worthwhile discussion IMO, even though I'm sure some posters will think otherwise (please don't hurt me, guys. I just like a good discussion).

If he was on duty, I'd wager he'd have just blown them off. "I'm a piper in the Black Watch, this is my uniform". Done.
It's the off duty case, where it goes from uniform to traditional Scottish dress that brings (in this case, seemingly incorrect) interpretation of the bylaw into it.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> This was my initial intent but someone else broaden the subject and could I not immediately find a valid reason to use actual weapons on parade.  I am happy to be presented with valid reasons.
> 
> Edit to clarify


My views on weapons on parade. 

On one (lazy)  hand  losing a rubber rifle/sword is a lot less significant than losing a real one.   
On the other hand were members of the military and should be prepared to react with violence at a moments notice.

Tieing into that train of thought members of the military are prime targets for terrorist attacks and while a steel bayonet  may not hold up to an ak47 it's still better than being defenseless.  

Not the strongest argument.


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## mariomike (5 Nov 2016)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Read a freedom of the city proclamation, it covers this nicely.



The last one I read,

City of Toronto to affirm The Royal Regiment of Canada's Freedom of the City
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=af71df79b2df6410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD&nrkey=133F12C6BCF3BD4985257FB100520BD5&start=1&count=30


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## George Wallace (5 Nov 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> I thought Max meant why not make all cultural and religious weapons/knives plastic/fake.   I thought that was an interesting thought, could be a good debate.



To tell you the truth, whether that knife blade was steel or plastic would make no difference.  It would still be an effective stabbing tool if used as such.  If you really wanted to, you could use a pen or pencil and create a much deeper stab wound than this knife, and likely cause more damage through contamination.  This whole matter is a farce and the piper should contest it.  The Police officer was being a moron or a dick or both.

My  :2c:


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## George Wallace (5 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> To come back to the subject, the questions that would need answering are:
> 
> 1- Does the population actually have issues with using weapons on parade?



Max.

The population has actual issues with so many things, the Niqāb, turbans, crosses, prayers in schools, military aircraft at air shows, and the list goes on to infinity......Soon we won't be able to step outside our doors without breaking some by-law or offending someone.

Proof that many of our people in government or filling roles of authority are losing all common sense.



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> 2- If yes, is there an actual need to carry weapons on a parade?



It actually depends on the circumstances.  There are parades where weapons are not carried, such as November the 11th, where only the Cenotaph Guard have weapons to perform their duties.  Freedom of the City parades demonstrate the freedom granted the unit to "march through the streets with drums beating, colours flying and bayonets fixed".



			
				SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> 3- Can we achieve the same "effect" with "fake" weapons?



No.  Even a "fake" weapon can construed as real by these type of people.  That applies just as well to the complaints towards non-weaponized military aircraft at air shows.


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## Journeyman (5 Nov 2016)

The bottom line is, if the Montreal police had not raised the issue of the piper's skean dhu, we're only a small step from "Canadian cities. Soldiers with guns. In our cities. In Canada." 
Total anarchy!    anic:


Edit:  Sorry, I forgot the :sarcasm:


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## dapaterson (5 Nov 2016)

You mean like what Trudeau pere did in 1970?


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## Chispa (5 Nov 2016)

expwor said:
			
		

> Well my two cents if even worth that, when I was in the Militia, on Remembrance Day not only did we carry a real rifle (FNC1A1...that's how old I am) we put the breech block in and carried the rifle with fixed bayonets.
> To answer your question though, I sure hope not.
> 
> Tom



BW in 70-80s-90s, all regiments in the City of Montreal, marched on remembrance day, etc., with bang sticks and fixed bayonets, last remembrance day the BW RHR of Canada, Officers, wore their swords, skean dhu, etc., the file with rifles, bayonets and scabbards, even on the Queen Mother visits, and past with prince chuckles. It's part of Regimental Standing Orders on Dress dating back over 100 years. 


No worries got the headsup, the S hit the fan, make no mistake about that.  

As for plastic, I brought from the US a dagger made from compost materials and it cuts and kills just like the real deal.


Montreal politicians are not pleased with police officers going after a well-known bagpiper.
http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/politicians-not-impressed-with-bagpiper-getting-ticket-1.3146962

MAYOR CODERRE WONDERS IF BAGPIPER SHOULD HAVE BEEN TICKETED AT ALL.
http://www.iheartradio.ca/cjad/news/mayor-coderre-wonders-if-bagpiper-should-have-been-ticketed-at-all-1.2130338


C.U.


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## George Wallace (5 Nov 2016)

Perhaps that officer should have her letter opener confiscated and handed a $221 fine.    >


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## Jarnhamar (5 Nov 2016)

Not _really _related but I wonder what kind of fun pants the officer was wearing.


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## sandyson (5 Nov 2016)

Piper McCarthy was playing for McGill University:  "But McCarthy ran into trouble on his way to play the bagpipes at McGill University's fall convocation at Place-des-Arts Wednesday."  He was not on duty at the time so this has very little to do with the military.
Might be a bit tricky getting a piper for a police event at least in Montreal for awhile.
As for carrying weapons in cities, I was stopped by the Sherbrooke Police many years ago for carrying my sword home.  A bus driver made the complaint.  The police dismissed the complaint immediately.
As for parades with weapons, the Regiments sent a letter to the mayor informing him/her that we intended to exercise our 'freedom of the city'.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Nov 2016)

The cops were wearing clown pants? Highly appropriate....


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## mariomike (5 Nov 2016)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Not _really _related but I wonder what kind of fun pants the officer was wearing.



That makes me sick. It's not limited to Montreal, and not limited to the police. 
Don't like your job? GTFO. There's lots of replacements on the hiring list.


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## George Wallace (5 Nov 2016)

Sandyson said:
			
		

> Piper McCarthy was playing for McGill University:  "But McCarthy ran into trouble on his way to play the bagpipes at McGill University's fall convocation at Place-des-Arts Wednesday."  He was not on duty at the time so this has very little to do with the military.
> Might be a bit tricky getting a piper for a police event at least in Montreal for awhile.
> As for carrying weapons in cities, I was stopped by the Sherbrooke Police many years ago for carrying my sword home.  A bus driver made the complaint.  The police dismissed the complaint immediately.
> As for parades with weapons, the Regiments sent a letter to the mayor informing him/her that we intended to exercise our 'freedom of the city'.



In this article it is quoted:



			
				Chispa said:
			
		

> Montreal politicians are not pleased with police officers going after a well-known bagpiper.
> http://montreal.ctvnews.ca/politicians-not-impressed-with-bagpiper-getting-ticket-1.3146962





> In fact, McCarthy has been wearing the sgian-dubh at various events around Montreal for 25 years -- including inside council chambers.
> 
> City Councillor Sterling Downey said he has worn the knife with his kilt at city hall without being stopped by police -- and pointed out that McCarthy recently played at the funeral for a retired police officer.




Later in one of those two posted links by Chispa, it mentions that the officer was female and they are interested in what her reasoning was.


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## dapaterson (5 Nov 2016)

Montreal Police ate wearing those pants as a protest to contract talks that are stuck.


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## mariomike (5 Nov 2016)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Montreal Police ate wearing those pants as a protest to contract talks that are stuck.



I remember reading that on here,



			
				Boxtop22 said:
			
		

> The Montreal Police has been on strike for months, and a way for them to express the fact that they're on strike is not to wear their full regular uniform. They will replace their trousers with (most of the time) military trousers  (EROL / MARPAT / CADPAT) etc. I find it odd that individuals (which are technically supposed to represent law and order) are allowed to use cadpat/ or cadpat-like uniform (or part-of) as a way to protest, while it is supposed to be something you must earn and something you respect...



I remember our union - management contract talks getting stuck from time to time. They went to arbitration to get unstuck.


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## Good2Golf (5 Nov 2016)

rnkelly said:
			
		

> Recceguy- I agree with your points on why we should be displaying our tools of the trade but don't think the personal attacks or general vitriol towards airforce contributes anything.  As a TacHel guy I have more in common with the army combat arms types then Air Force but in the end we're all on the same team.
> 
> Let's not lose sight of the real problem here; a couple of power tripping loser Montreal Cops.



An 8" blade on a Kirpan is okay, even for 12-year old school children in Quebec.  McCarthy should just ensure the hilt of his sgian-dubh is stitched into the cuff of his hose, like young Gurbagh Singh's kirpan was covered and stitched close.  Perhaps if he has the time, he can go to the Supreme Court of Canada and have the Montreal By-Law re-worded to respect the spirit of the SCC's decision against the Quebec School Board in the case of Singh?


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## ballz (5 Nov 2016)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> An argument in favour actual weapons on a parade has yet to be presented here and I frankly do not see a requirement for it.  I say if it upsets people in the community and contravenes local bylaws then perhaps we should reconsider how we conduct parades out in towns and cities (or at least get proper authorization to do so)



A requirement? There is no requirement for parades at all. They are purely symbolic and cultural.

Much like "innocent until proven guilty," I think the onus should be on the person advocating change to support why we shouldn't use real rifles / swords on parade, why people shouldn't be allowed to carry a knife in their sock as part of their uniform, etc. I haven't seen any convincing reasons for us to start using rubber rifles on parade, in fact the whole idea smells of "safe spaces" to me and I'm a bit surprised it's coming from a fellow CAF member.

However, if you want a reason, I as a professional soldier would feel rather degraded by the public if they insisted that I carry a rubber rifle on parade or a plastic sword. If that's how they feel about me / us, then they can find someone else to carry the real weapons for them when it counts.


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## Kat Stevens (5 Nov 2016)

It wouldn't matter if troops carried a piece of 2x4 with "riffle" painted on it in fluorescent pink paint.  Those upset by the mere presence of a rifle, rubber, metal, or twisted up balloons will still yap off and protest.  The very existence of a military is offensive to them.


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## Chispa (5 Nov 2016)

Sandyson said:
			
		

> Piper McCarthy was playing for McGill University:  "But McCarthy ran into trouble on his way to play the bagpipes at McGill University's fall convocation at Place-des-Arts Wednesday."  He was not on duty at the time so this has very little to do with the military.
> Might be a bit tricky getting a piper for a police event at least in Montreal for awhile.
> As for carrying weapons in cities, I was stopped by the Sherbrooke Police many years ago for carrying my sword home.  A bus driver made the complaint.  The police dismissed the complaint immediately.
> As for parades with weapons, the Regiments sent a letter to the mayor informing him/her that we intended to exercise our 'freedom of the city'.




The Pipes & Drums Of Cdn BW are a separate entity, which are connected, a representative of the Regiment = Mother, in no matter which function, Civil or Military. That's why at the armoury U have 4 messes, Officers, Sgt., Lower ranks, and the P & D. It's my understanding he was wearing a Glengarry with the BW capbadge, no red feathers, owing it's forbidden by Standing Orders, and that includes 3rd SCOTS (BW). Unless you're USMC., they wear the Glengarry with red-feathers and cap-badge on the left side.






http://s168.photobucket.com/user/pancelticpiper/media/usmcpipeband.jpg.html


10 Years ago my 870 R PRG 21" with rifle sights, etc., was at Dante, gunsmith, picking up after repair, my car wouldn't start therefore went to metro station near by, note it was in a case, locked Trigger, and I had the registration, etc.

When I switched Lines while waiting, Metro Sec., intercepted moi asking if I had a guitar in the case? I Told them I had a shot-gun, explained the situation, they checked with supervisor, If it's in a case with a trigger Lock, and I have all the permits I can transport it on the Montreal and Laval System: They escorted me until the end, and informed the Laval Bus driver.

The bagpipes, some say originated from Spain, Gaitas.

USMC in Kilts, God Bless the US Marine Corps, I wounder if their regimental, Balls in the wind.





Just my thoughts.

C.U.


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## brihard (5 Nov 2016)

Speaking from only my personal opinion, and not with my badge in hand- this is one of the most chicken**** things I've ever seen, and whatever officer laid that charge should be ashamed of themselves. What an utter lack of judgement and discretion.


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## George Wallace (5 Nov 2016)

Now Chispa, you have shown a case where something called "a little Commons Sense" was put into play.  It obviously was not in the Piper's case.


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## Chispa (5 Nov 2016)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now Chispa, you have shown a case where something called "a little Commons Sense" was put into play.  It obviously was not in the Piper's case.




Some Montreal, or rest of Canada; police have shown in the past poor judgement, there are many other police officers more clear headed, etc., even got-away with a few traffic tickets, just by showing respect and not being confrontational, a yes speaking French does help at times, lol. However sometimes some cops are arses and no matter what will not change the outcome, remember they have a quota in tickets they need too Issue. 

Señor Wallace, a Little commons sense, at times is hard to come by. 



C.U.


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## George Wallace (5 Nov 2016)

Yes.  It is not at all that common.


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## OldSolduer (6 Nov 2016)

Brihard said:
			
		

> Speaking from only my personal opinion, and not with my badge in hand- this is one of the most chicken**** things I've ever seen, and whatever officer laid that charge should be ashamed of themselves. What an utter lack of judgement and discretion.



To be blunt it's ignorance that the cop gave the ticket. Ignorance about another demographics culture and ignoring the explanation. Jacka$$ for sure !


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## daftandbarmy (6 Nov 2016)

He's lucky he escaped with his life... fear the piper!

The war on bagpipes:

http://www.citylab.com/design/2012/04/war-bagpipes-wiping-single-instrument-urban-map/1754/


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## George Wallace (6 Nov 2016)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> He's lucky he escaped with his life... fear the piper!
> 
> The war on bagpipes:
> 
> http://www.citylab.com/design/2012/04/war-bagpipes-wiping-single-instrument-urban-map/1754/



She.      [

It was a female cop and questions are being asked, according to links in earlier posts (above).


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## Motorcop505 (30 Mar 2021)

Occam said:


> 🤦
> 
> Original link
> 
> ...


What is particularly sad about this is that Scotsman began sgian dubh’s after the carrying of their claymores (the broadswords that the explosive devices were named after) was outlawed by the English, much as the carrying of shillelaghs became popular in Ireland after a similar ban.

It’s also interesting because the former RCMP officer who became the head of security for the Canadian Parliament lobbied in favor of allowing Sikh males to carry kirpans, which are ritual knives that tend to be slightly larger than sgian dubhs, inside Parliament because they are required to carry them by their religion for the expressed purpose of fighting against injustice. What made his action even more courageous was that it followed the tragic episode when one of the soldiers were killed outside Parliament by a terrorist.

Having spent an entire career in law enforcement, I wish that officers didn’t select issuing tickets or making arrests as their default choice of action when many situations are better served by issuing verbal warnings whenever possible.


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## Motorcop505 (9 Aug 2021)

GR66 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like he was charged with a Criminal Code offence but issued a ticket.  Did a (very) little searching and found reference to a City of Montreal Bylaw regarding knives:
> 
> 
> 1.  In this by-law, "public place" means a place to which the public has access by express or tacit invitation.
> ...


This would be laughable if it weren’t for the serious consequences for the outcome.

If this can be heard in court, I would advise the actions:

1. Spread the word to every Scottish group in the area and any from kilted regiments, and ask them to attend on the court date. Prior to the court date, draft a brief press release and send it to every local news media outlet including radio stations.
If you need any assistance with drafting it, feel free to email me. As a former police PIO in the 4th largest media market in the US (Philly), I’ve done my share of crafting them. My address is: motorcop505@yahoo.com

2. Locate one or more people who are recognized authorities on Scottish dress, such as elder members of Scottish community groups and local professors who can give opinion evidence in court after they undergo a brief vior dire where they are asked a few questions to demonstrate their knowledge of the culture significance of you “knife.” As I understand it, they were introduced after the Highlanders were suppressed and forbidden to carry their claymores.

Finally, even the chief of security at your Parliament who was a retired Mountie who shot the terrorist who killed a soldier approved Sikh males to carry their “kirpans,” which are required for wear “to fight against injustice.” This was after the attack, too


realize your case isn’t religious, but Canada has such incredible ties to Scotland that this will not be a good look. They are going to wish they hadn’t allowed such a travesty to happen in the first place. 

Best wishes,

~Tom


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## The Bread Guy (9 Aug 2021)

And what ended up happening in the end (link from 2018)?


> Jeff McCarthy has his knife back.
> 
> On Monday, the Montreal bagpiper walked into Police Station 50 on Ste-Catherine St. E., filled out the paperwork and was handed his sgian-dubh (pronounced skee-an do).
> 
> ...


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## suffolkowner (9 Aug 2021)

The Bread Guy said:


> And what ended up happening in the end (link from 2018)?


Our legal system at work again, waste of time and money


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## NavyShooter (10 Aug 2021)

I'd have suggested having a gathering of the pipes outside the courthouse, and have a couple of hundred pipers playing a few tunes while the court was in session...I'd imagine that the echo could be heard even indoors when you've got that level of support.


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## daftandbarmy (10 Aug 2021)

NavyShooter said:


> I'd have suggested having a gathering of the pipes outside the courthouse, and have a couple of hundred pipers playing a few tunes while the court was in session...I'd imagine that the echo could be heard even indoors when you've got that level of support.



Or....


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## Kilted (10 Aug 2021)

I wonder in the Montreal Police would have done that to a Black Watch soldier. I don't always wear a sgian-dubh when in civilian Scottish dress, but I've never had an issue with it in public. I've had a couple people ask to see it and I always say no, partly due to traditions associated with it. I've even worn a Dirk to Highland Games as well. I've never had an issue with it in uniform either. Although, I remember a member of my regiment commenting on being next to the Prime Minister while wearing one and he thought that it was notable.


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## Loch Sloy! (10 Aug 2021)

I (and every other officer/ Sr NCO there that day) carried a Sgian Dubh while meeting Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth. Her security didn't batt an eye.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Aug 2021)

Loch Sloy! said:


> I (and every other officer/ Sr NCO there that day) carried a Sgian Dubh while meeting Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth*. Her security* didn't batt an eye.



Dude, you all WERE the Queen's security.

That's the difference


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## OldSolduer (11 Aug 2021)

suffolkowner said:


> Our legal system at work again, waste of time and money


It’s an industry not a system


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## LittleBlackDevil (12 Aug 2021)

jollyjacktar said:


> I'm cool with it as long as it's not used as a weapon.





Fishbone Jones said:


> It already is a weapon, decorative surely, but still a weapon.



Depends on what definition of weapon you are using. For the purposes of the _Criminal Code_, an item is only a weapon if it was "used, designed to be used or intended for use" in causing death or injury or threatening a person. I think the _Criminal Code_ definition is a reasonable one.

The Montreal bylaw doesn't refer to weapons of course, but I think jollyjacktar was thinking of something similar since s/he specifically said "as long as it's not USED as a weapon". 

Something like the knife in question is purely ceremonial and therefore not a weapon in my view.



Journeyman said:


> The knife is in view as the handle protrudes above sock; there is no mention of the police officer having x-ray vision.
> 
> The rifles do have a bolt in them on parade; it keeps the cocking handle from falling out.
> 
> *I too am perfectly OK with pilots being restricted to carrying fake swords on parade.*



I actually thought parade swords_ were_ fake swords. They certainly aren't sharp, at least not the ones I ever handled.


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## Old Sweat (13 Aug 2021)

When I was a Phase One officer cadet, part of the introduction to our new world, was a series of lectures on customs of the service, dress, and the like. Not surprisingly then, must of it was based on British practice, especially as many veterans had yet to turn 40 back in 1960.

The literature was heavy on authenticity and we were "advised" to purchase Wilkinson swords from the UK that conformed to the military pattern and specifications for  the appropriate design, eg cavalry, infantry, artillery. Our troop officer was a ROTP civilian university graduate in zoology from behind the tweed curtain; he had a different attitude, based, I guess, on the low probability of having to stab somebody in defence of our guns. In short, his informal advice was buy the cheapest, lightest model one could find, as long as it would get by on parade. As for the weight, we were going to have to stand at the carry for long periods of time, and the lighter, the better. Blade length was critical, 34 inches were expected, but 36 was okay, if tall. So, I bought a 32-inch hyper- light with some almost invisible scruff marks on the blade after graduation. It got me through all sorts of parades, a few guards-of-honour, and even the battery commander's appointment for the 1 RCHA saluting battery for the 100-gun salute on 1 July 1967 in Fort York, Germany, without provoking officialdom. A number of years back, I gave it to a newly-commissioned officer to save him a few bucks, and I saw something about him I liked.


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## quadrapiper (13 Aug 2021)

LittleBlackDevil said:


> I actually thought parade swords_ were_ fake swords. They certainly aren't sharp, at least not the ones I ever handled.


There's varying degrees of metal quality in the blades: the older the sword, the more likely that it's a flexible, resilient item designed to combat specs. Newer blades will generally be stiffer, and may have chrome or other finishes not found on the older ones.


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## Eaglelord17 (13 Aug 2021)

Many swords were never sharpened, often it was at the discretion of the person using it. For example cavalry swords were often not sharpened as you didn't necessarily want to cut into the person as it could then be snagged on the bone when travelling at speed, the momentum of the blade and horse did more than enough damage as it was. Much like how bayonets aren't supposed to be sharpened, it all depends on who is using it and how.


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## SeaKingTacco (14 Aug 2021)

LittleBlackDevil said:


> Depends on what definition of weapon you are using. For the purposes of the _Criminal Code_, an item is only a weapon if it was "used, designed to be used or intended for use" in causing death or injury or threatening a person. I think the _Criminal Code_ definition is a reasonable one.
> 
> The Montreal bylaw doesn't refer to weapons of course, but I think jollyjacktar was thinking of something similar since s/he specifically said "as long as it's not USED as a weapon".
> 
> ...


CF swords are the real deal- they will kill, if used correctly.

I have never seen one with an edge (you need a grindstone for that) but everyone of them has a point.


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## daftandbarmy (15 Aug 2021)

Old Sweat said:


> When I was a Phase One officer cadet, part of the introduction to our new world, was a series of lectures on customs of the service, dress, and the like. Not surprisingly then, must of it was based on British practice, especially as many veterans had yet to turn 40 back in 1960.
> 
> The literature was heavy on authenticity and we were "advised" to purchase Wilkinson swords from the UK that conformed to the military pattern and specifications for  the appropriate design, eg cavalry, infantry, artillery. Our troop officer was a ROTP civilian university graduate in zoology from behind the tweed curtain; he had a different attitude, based, I guess, on the low probability of having to stab somebody in defence of our guns. In short, his informal advice was buy the cheapest, lightest model one could find, as long as it would get by on parade. As for the weight, we were going to have to stand at the carry for long periods of time, and the lighter, the better. Blade length was critical, 34 inches were expected, but 36 was okay, if tall. So, I bought a 32-inch hyper- light with some almost invisible scruff marks on the blade after graduation. It got me through all sorts of parades, a few guards-of-honour, and even the battery commander's appointment for the 1 RCHA saluting battery for the 100-gun salute on 1 July 1967 in Fort York, Germany, without provoking officialdom. A number of years back, I gave it to a newly-commissioned officer to save him a few bucks, and I saw something about him I liked.


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## FJAG (15 Aug 2021)

Old Sweat said:


> When I was a Phase One officer cadet, part of the introduction to our new world, was a series of lectures on customs of the service, dress, and the like. Not surprisingly then, must of it was based on British practice, especially as many veterans had yet to turn 40 back in 1960.
> 
> The literature was heavy on authenticity and we were "advised" to purchase Wilkinson swords from the UK that conformed to the military pattern and specifications for  the appropriate design, eg cavalry, infantry, artillery. Our troop officer was a ROTP civilian university graduate in zoology from behind the tweed curtain; he had a different attitude, based, I guess, on the low probability of having to stab somebody in defence of our guns. In short, his informal advice was buy the cheapest, lightest model one could find, as long as it would get by on parade. As for the weight, we were going to have to stand at the carry for long periods of time, and the lighter, the better. Blade length was critical, 34 inches were expected, but 36 was okay, if tall. So, I bought a 32-inch hyper- light with some almost invisible scruff marks on the blade after graduation. It got me through all sorts of parades, a few guards-of-honour, and even the battery commander's appointment for the 1 RCHA saluting battery for the 100-gun salute on 1 July 1967 in Fort York, Germany, without provoking officialdom. A number of years back, I gave it to a newly-commissioned officer to save him a few bucks, and I saw something about him I liked.


By the time I was a cadet in 1969, our role model that graced all the officer recruiting ads at the time was the dapper officer in greens deboarding from one of the CAF's 707s with a cool attaché case. 

.... So I got a real nice attaché case on graduation and never did get a sword. There were enough regimental swords to go around for the very few parades where we needed one.

I still think that that ad reflected the moment that the "old army" died.

😉


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