# Drill and Military Tradition



## Britney Spears (24 Mar 2005)

Which brings us logically to the next topic of debate: 

"Ceremonial Drill - Obsolete?"

*waits for it to be spun off into a new thread*


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## Infanteer (24 Mar 2005)

Hey hey now - it's "Train as you would Drill"; or is that "Drill as you would Fight".... :blotto:


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## KevinB (24 Mar 2005)

Drill - Here goes an issue, I support it heavily used in Recruit, Basic and Battleschool - it is part of the react immediately concept that needs to be instilled and the baseline to discipline.


 After that - shut down all the gay parade crap -- certain drills should be done (the ones we don't do) to work for Crowd Control -- if you've played with the Horsemen riot teams you know what I mean.

But I'd burn half the drill pam - especially the rifle drill portions.


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## pbi (24 Mar 2005)

Couldn't disagree more. Drill has a very long history of being one of the most cost effective and simple ways of instilling instinctive obedience and teamwork, as well as building a basic sense of pride.   Our problem is that we now do so little drill (ever...) that our standard has dropped to a hideously low level. It seems to me that a body of troops moving around now is more likely to be a stumbling mass going in five different directions, dressed however they want, than to be a formed group moving in a sharp and professional manner under the control of NCO. It is really sad to see the way this has deteriorated in our Army over the years. The need for drill, like the need for any other kind of training, doesn't stop after recruit training.

The value of drill as a simple and effective part of training soldiers was confirmed for me in the book "The Wild Geese", in the portion in which Mike Hoare related one of his standard mercenary hiring practices. He said that he would have his Sgt Maj form up all the applicants, then drill the hell out of them. He stated that he usually found that the soldier who worked hard and looked proud on the square would be a good hire.

Finally, if we want other opinions on the value of drill, you might want to ask the US Marines, or the Foot Guards Regiments of the British Army, both of whom have very honourable combat records as well as high standards of drill. I believe in the value of drill as an important part of the training toolbox.

Cheers.


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## Britney Spears (24 Mar 2005)

Jesus, it was a JOKE. Even I wouldn't go that far.

 Everyone put the pacesticks down and relax.....


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## Infanteer (25 Mar 2005)

Lol, I knew joking about drill would draw some incoming fire from PBI....  

For what it's worth, I think that drill is one of the cornerstones of the profession - watching some of the slugs shamble around in the news-clips of Bordon recently has reaffirmed this.

But then again, I'm one of those wierdos who thinks that we also should take pride in our apperence and be issued a proper Service Dress (or Walking Out Dress - whatever you want to call it) so we don't look like a bunch of dumpy mechanics.

My goal is to dress KevinB up in one of these outfits.... >


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## KevinB (25 Mar 2005)

I think I might have a pic of me in Battle dress for the 50th of D-Day kicking about.



PBI - I knew there was a confomist in you...

 I agree with th reason for drill - I just like to see more useful drill rather than advance in review order...  Left/Right Inclines on the march in go gear forming square and wedge etc.  I don't see the point in a flourishing parade so the Col's wife and kids can see his troops march aroudn like a wind up toy.

I'd be interested to see how much the US Rangers and their #rd TF pals from the cage at Bragg, do drill?  Same with John's Trout Farm.

My guess is they are busy out wacking tango's - or practicing skills for said mission.


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## Michael Dorosh (25 Mar 2005)

KevinB said:
			
		

> I don't see the point in a flourishing parade so the Col's wife and kids can see his troops march aroudn like a wind up toy.



You don't run a battalion, either.  And from your own admission, are never likely to.

Why crap on the rabbi for blessing the food just because you don't eat kosher yourself?


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## Britney Spears (25 Mar 2005)

Oh great, now we're really off to the races. :

Isn't this thread about bayonets? Obviously I've misjudged the board's capacity for humour once again, for which I apologize. If a mod wants to put us back on track I'd appreiciate it.


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## Michael Dorosh (25 Mar 2005)

Britney Spears said:
			
		

> Oh great, now we're really off to the races. :
> 
> Isn't this thread about bayonets? Obviously I've misjudged the board's capacity for humour once again, for which I apologize. If a mod wants to put us back on track I'd appreiciate it.



Hey, why do you need _our _help?  Apologizing for being smarter than everyone else is a _great_ way to get the thread back on track! LOL

Probably time to lock this up before Kev posts the Tarzan costume pics.

Not trying to be offensive to Kevin, either, incidentally, just pointing out that everyone thinks they know how to do everyone else's job - until they actually have to walk a mile in their shoes.  As much as some of us eschew politics, etc., I'm betting they are a fact of life for a colonel, and that includes making the troops seem like wind-up toys at times.

If that was an attempt at humour on Kevin's part, I'll freely admit it sailed over my head.

Is there really anything else to say about bayonets?  I was just hoping to see NATO dude come back and defend his comments about helmets and bagpipes, honestly.


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## KevinB (25 Mar 2005)

Okay poor attempt at humour.  I believe that our limited training time could be better spent.  I mentioend being favour of drill - however I am also in favour of small arms skills and I dont like troops wasting rounds with no thought to training.  Do it for a reason.


I have a very fetching (if I do say so myself) of me in the 19th Cent Artillery 9lb'er uniform with busby from my old pre Patricia days (pre'94)


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## Infanteer (25 Mar 2005)

Problem is, from my limited time in battalion, I spent more time sitting in the Company Lines couches that the Patricia's provided then doing training - whether it be bayonet training, drill, or weapons handling....


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## KevinB (25 Mar 2005)

Under THAT CO the BN was not what it should have been, the last two are cut from entirely different cloth.


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## Infanteer (25 Mar 2005)

Whew....

Now, FIX BAYONETS!!!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (25 Mar 2005)

Why, are they broken?


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## pbi (25 Mar 2005)

> I don't see the point in a flourishing parade so the Col's wife and kids can see his troops march around like a wind up toy.



Then I suggest that maybe we have lost sight of the role of drill and ceremonial in the life of a military unit. It is not just for the COs wife and kids to see: it is for everybody;s wife and kids to see. To me it is a cultural thing: the hard work, pride and teamwork that go into a good parade are great things to behold. Are there other ways to instill those things: yes, of course. That's why I said "tool in the toolbox" not "the only tool" (well...maybe I'm the only tool around here...). Are there effective military forces that don't spend alot of time on drill? Yes, there probably are. Except that, especially in the JTF and organizations similar, the members have usually come from combat arms organizations where there was an emphasis on drill and sharpness (as opposed to the rest of the military...). Therefore, I think it is safe to say that drill played its role in shaping them.

Is drill hard work? Yes-for everybody on parade. I have taken part in two full military funerals (I commanded one...) and I can tell you that slow marching for a couple of kms at reversed arms is hard work, especially if its crap weather out and the street is uneven. But, I felt proud to take part, and proud that we (all) looked as sharp as we did. I know that when the battalion did its Farewell to Calgary in 1997, the spectacle of a battalion of sharply turned out soldiers, marching arms shoulder high, boot cleats crashing on the pavement, created a huge impression on the public (and we looked at ourselves in the store windows too ;D ).

Somebody said I was a comformist. I hope not. But, I am a proud traditionalist where it comes to things that my experience and instinct tell me are important basic parts of soldiering as we know it: to me that includes drill.

Cheers.


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## Britney Spears (25 Mar 2005)

I think the cbt arms soldiers here are all aware of the importance of drill, but it must be frustrating to see so much effort devoted to it when other areas of training are being cut back. Would you rather do more drill or simunitions training? In an idea world we'd have plenty of both*, but when we have more drill than actual training, people will start wondering.


*OK, that's a lie, my ideal world actually involves no drill at all, I hate drill. I meant pbi's ideal world. You know, refleting the CO's intent and all.......


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## Infanteer (25 Mar 2005)

I can honestly say that two of the "cooler" things I've done were parading for Lady Patricia as she awarded us medals and marching at arms with the Regimental Colours for the public.   It may have not been "high-speed", but both were demanding in terms of effort (as both an individual and as a Team) and were very "military" events.

I think we're are selling ourselves short by pointing to some SOC units and saying that Drill, Dress and Deportment (the three D's) have no place in a modern military.   In my opinion, all three are linked (and tied into Discipline) and all should be central to being a professional soldier.


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## Jarnhamar (25 Mar 2005)

> In my opinion, all three are linked (and tied into Discipline) and all should be central to being a professional soldier.



Agreed.  
A huge pet peeve of mine is seeing very sloppy drill.

Bad drill among recruits, well thats obviously expected. Among trained and expeienced soldiers? It looks horrible.

From officers looking like it's their first stab at marching to NCOs who act like they are too good for regulation drill to privates and corporals who have no coordination whatsoever.
Proper drill shouldn't be something hammered into Infantry soldiers or just the combat arms. All trades should look good doing drill.

I know we always fall back to this in debates here. "We should be soldiers first".  Seems to work in theory but not really in practice.

Drill or simunitions training? Well i'm sure most people will say Simunition training, BUT, it shouldn't be a matter of one or the other.  Drill isn't a crazy difficult thing to train on. I'm not suggesting everyone be able to do drill on the hill in ottawa but everyone should be able to perform the basic functions without embarassing themselves.


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## KevinB (25 Mar 2005)

I started to write up a new topic about this soemwhere else and saw this.

My biggest pet peeve is sloppy drill.   But I think that at the Bn level is not the place to learn Drill and Discipline.  If they make it that far (and they do) it is impossible to instill at that point - unless you are going to let Cpl's and M/Cpl's give out beatings again - for the BN simply cannot afford the time to do two or three weeks of incessant drill practice.

PBI I was on that sunset ceremony at Currie - and the logn walk down 5th Ave   - and I agree it was nice.

However recently I am simply disgusted with the dress and deportment - now anyone who knows me knows I am the last person to care about D&D normally - I make the exception in CF's


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## Infanteer (25 Mar 2005)

You'll notice I got out the big black moderator pen.   Please keep posts focused on the value that Drill has for the Military and refrain from personal attacks.


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## a_majoor (26 Mar 2005)

I think the point Brittany was trying to raise was first brought up in a 1981 article in Canadian Defense Quarterly called "No Time for Drill" by then Maj Douglas Bland. (Like bayonets, I think this may have been raised earlier, but this is the first reference I have).

Bland made two points: Drill as taught stresses "unthinking obedience", and takes a great deal of time and effort to do well, as we all should know. Even in 1981, Bland felt that soldiers needed to be trained to think and act independently, to cross the battlefield in loose and open formations. He also felt that the junior commander (MCpl/Sgt) needed more practice and training in doing "battle drill" as opposed to close order drill. He summed up by saying (paraphrase) "after spending time in the field doing section attacks, we graduate the new leaders by ritualistically performing battle drills from the Napoleonic era". 

My own heretical take on the subject is Bland is right, and if we really want to develop soldiers to operate in the "Three Block War" or do Urban Ops in places like Khandahar or Fallujiah, then basic training should resemble a very militarized version of "Outward Bound", where developing teamwork and self reliance is the key...

I do understand the purpose of drill, and certainly apprieciate watching a good parade, but perhaps we need to focus our training a bit differently to match the needs of the 21rst century.


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## Long in the tooth (26 Mar 2005)

We performed a dual freedom of cities parade of 3 VP from Victoria to Esqimault that finished in a fou des jous..   this was a march of over 7mi.

Trooping of the colours, change of command parades and freedom of the city parades are the meeting place of the CF and Civilians.

This one event, in particular, is a high point in my career.   Always, 0.02


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## Zipper (26 Mar 2005)

Wow, I'm actually going to agree with the likes of Majoor and Infanteer on another subject. ;D

Drill is important in all of the afore mentioned things. And it need not take a lot of time to maintain. A half hour of it ever day or so is all you need to stay "with it". This practise of not doing any until right before a parade always invites disaster.

And on two small rants.

Our dress uniforms are ugly.

And our drill sucks. Its not as bad when you get a single unit doing it, but when they throw these ad hoc "all branch" honour guards together it is embarrising.

End rant. 

As for your idea Majoor of bringing a more outward bound mentality to the training. As a former participant of that org, I think you've hit on something quite interesting. If we could look at the training methods of both Outward bound and the National Outdoor leadership school (NOLS), they have many ideas that would prove very worth while.


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## the 48th regulator (26 Mar 2005)

> Our dress uniforms are ugly



Too bad yours are,  You should check out ours they are just phenomenal to wear, especially in the heat of the May Sun right before Her Majesty does an inspection....


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## Michael Dorosh (26 Mar 2005)

Zipper said:
			
		

> Wow, I'm actually going to agree with *the likes of Majoor and Infanteer* on another subject. ;D



What does this mean?  You don't normally agree with intelligent, articulate professional-minded soldiers?


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## Zipper (26 Mar 2005)

48th - I was refering to the dress uniform of the CAF. Not the regimentals which all look pretty awesome.

Michael - Lets just say on matters of military we tend to see eye to eye. Other matters...        ...well...

 ;D


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## the 48th regulator (26 Mar 2005)

Oh ok,

As for the dress my point was a cheeky statement about sweating your haggis off, while wearing all that gack, on parade, nervous because the Queen is about to look at at group of melting troops...


tess


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## Haggis (26 Mar 2005)

NDHQ has something called the "Standing Guard"   Every CF member posted or attached posted to NDHQ (Reservists included) who is fit to do drill is liable to be tasked to it.   The Standing Guard does most Guards of Honour and military funerals in the National Captial Region.

As the tasker for my directorate, I'm constantly amazed at the number of folks who will go out of their way to avoid even having to perform a Standing Guard task.   No wonder our standard of drill is so low.   Members are afraid of parades!!!   It got so bad a couple of years back that the NDHQ CWO had to lay on mandatory refresher training for MCpls and below.   My God!

Parades are the one way that we can show our mettle to the public without scaring the shyte out of them (a public relations suicide act).   It is neither cost effective or practical to drag the civvies (many would likely not go because it was inconvenient) out to the field to watch us "strut our stuff".   Showing us off in our natural habitiat is, and should remain, the job of the Public Affairs branch.   Additionally, visiting heads of state do not want to be received in Petawawa watching Bravo Coy 1 RCR do a company attack from the top of Clement Hill under a mosquito net (or hip deep in snow).. Impressive as that may be, the same effect can be achieved in a much more cost and time effective fashion with a 100 member guard.   So, we do parades. 

In 2002 I was in the Republic of Georgia for a month on a NATO exercise with 15 different nations.   As the RSM, it was my job to set up the parade for the opening of the exercise.   It was evident from the get-go which countries took drill and ceremonial seriously and which didn't.   Every morning I held a battalion muster simply for no other reason but to have every one start training on time.   That in itself was no small feat as some contingents seemed to do time estimates on a calendar rather than a watch. 

Once the FTX series began, each contingent switched into "Field Mode"   Then something interesting came to light.   Despite how "hard" a contingent appeared (in "field" dress, conduct, apparent bravado etc.) as the exercise progressed, those countries who performed well on the parade and routinely met their timings invariably performed well on the FTXs.

Many of my peers tell of similar observations on multinational exercises and deployments.   Those who look "switched on" on parade are quite switched on in the field or on ops.   The examples are endless: the USMC, British Army, French Foreign Legion and, yes, even the old Soviet Army (although they took "discipline" to a whole other level).

To quote the British Army drill manuall, drill produces "a proud alert and obedient soldier". Say what you will about the Canadian Army of today but one of the reasons we perform so well under duress is that we still produce proud, alert and obedient soldiers.   

I will, after 28 years and many multi-national "experiences", state that drill IS the basis of all teamwork.


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## Old Sweat (26 Mar 2005)

Haggis,

As a ten-year retired soldier, I'm proud that I served in the same army as you.


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## Zipper (26 Mar 2005)

I'll second the Haggis! You hit it right on the head.  

I remember the "standing Guard" on TV escorting the 4 members of the PPCLI who died in Afghanistan on their arrival home. I'm sure the US Honour Guard from Arlington would have been cringing.

Why is it in a situation like that, do they not fly 4 - 6 folks out from Edmonton with their regimental number 1's to really put on a proper show? We do not take PR and just "pride in unit" seriously enough.

sigh


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Mar 2005)

Quote from Haggis,
No wonder our standard of drill is so low.  Members are afraid of parades!!!  It got so bad a couple of years back that the _NDHQ CWO _ had to lay on mandatory refresher _training for MCpls and below._  My God!

...don't want to start a pissin' contest but , from my experience, those are precisely the personall who need refreshers the least. 
Sounds like a an easy solution for le CWO, instead of insisting highers do same.


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## Infanteer (26 Mar 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Parades are the one way that we can show our mettle to the public without scaring the shyte out of them (a public relations suicide act).   It is neither cost effective or practical to drag the civvies (many would likely not go because it was inconvenient) out to the field to watch us "strut our stuff".   Showing us off in our natural habitiat is, and should remain, the job of the Public Affairs branch.   Additionally, visiting heads of state do not want to be received in Petawawa watching Bravo Coy 1 RCR do a company attack from the top of Clement Hill under a mosquito net (or hip deep in snow).. Impressive as that may be, the same effect can be achieved in a much more cost and time effective fashion with a 100 member guard.   So, we do parades.



That sounds good to me sir.

My father still thinks that the most impressive thing he's seen to date was a mounted parade of the Life Guards in London.


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## Haggis (26 Mar 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> from my experience, those are precisely the personall who need refreshers the least.
> Sounds like a an easy solution for le CWO, instead of insisting highers do same.



I omitted mentioning that the NDHQ CWO did just that.   All WO's and Sgts were given parade appointment training during annual Professional Development the same year.

A problem that recurs is that once a member gets posted to NDHQ many "solder skills" begin to erode, drill being among them.   Jr ranks are not immune to this once sucked into the NDHQ "lifestyle".   Not surprisingly some of the best performers in the Standing Guard tend to be the Combat Arms types, including the Reservists (who still parade with their parent units).   They are the ones who seem to have not lost sight of what it takes to be "proud alert and obedient."

On the mean streets of Kabul or up on Parliament Hill, we are the constant embodiment of all that makes Canadiain soldiers great and the personification of Canada.   We cannot lose sight of that.

Pee break over.   Back to my movie...


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## Zipper (26 Mar 2005)

Now what about the officers?

Not only are their drill skills low. but their deportment is usually lousy as well. As one point, for some reason they seem to think that they can wear their berets any way they please.

Just a qualifier. Not ALL officers are like this. I've seen some well put together hardasses, as well as some of my old units officers drilling for an hour a night before a parade just to get their sword drill in shape. ;D


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## pbi (27 Mar 2005)

I can't buy the argument that we are "spending too much time on drill", and that this is somehow holding back our soldiering skills. I also dispute the Bland article (which, IIRC, he stated that he wrote as a shyte-disturbing piece...)

When I started my life in a RegF Inf battalion in 1983, battalion drill in DEU w/forage cap was done every Friday morning. The RSM and the CO decided what would be done each week-sometimes squad drill, sometimes officers under separate instruction by thhe QMSI, sometimes drill at battalion level. When we did a battalion ceremonial parade, we worked hard to get ready for it-usually over several days or more for a big one. So,drill was FAR more a regular part of our life in RegF Cbt A units than than its has become today.

Now (and here is the point...) those days are the very days that we look back upon fondly now as the times in which we did more and better training, especially collective training. They were the days of lots of live fire, of   generous amounts of battle sim, of cowgut dummies in the "enemy" trenches, and of soldiers who were well versed in winter operations including building winter defences. I believe that we did more field training in the battalions then seems to be the case recently.

Now, if increasing the amount of drill we do would (allegedly...) have such a deleterious effect on us as a combat-ready army, how was it that we did all that drill (wow-a whole morning a week!) and yet did all that field training?
The Army we sent to fight in Korea was the product a far more drill-oriented system than we know today (and in this I include the Special Force soldiers who went first...). Where "drill mentality" became a problem was, IMHO, when the replacement Regular battalions took over from the Special Force and started worrying more about spit and polish trenchlines and so on, than about aggressive patrolling (I am obviously following Johnson's interpretation from _A War of Patrols_...)


Drill forms a very important part of instilling basic skills in soldiers-not to "replace" thinking, but to clear the mental decks for "real" thinking and ensuring that no matter how scared, tired or confused the soldier is, he can still perform the necessary skills without expending precious mental effort. The CO and his Marines who spoke to us at Edmonton recently about their combat experiences in Fallujah stressed the importance of drilling endlessly on skills, before deployment or when out of the line in theatre. (And, by the way, the USMC are no slackers on the square...). IMHO, teaching drill is a very simple and cost-effective way of training the mind and body to react instinctively both as an individual and as part of a group. It also serves in a very visual way to remind the soldier of the larger group that he is a part of, and its power as a collective.

If we were to adopt a Frederickean approach to drill, in which we spent every waking hour on the square and beat any individual thinking out of soldiers, I could see the argument that drill would damage our ability to function effectively in modern warfare. I'm not suggesting such a stupid COA, nor do I think any of the drill advocates are. Rather, we need to redress the balance by integrating drill into what we are doing in garrison. A high standard of drill, in which regular drill for ALL ranks, with everybody working hard and taking pride in collective sharpness, but forming a part of a balanced training routine, is IMHO a very positive thing, and one that we need right now. As a number of posters have observed, we are IMHO increasingly presenting a shambolic, flabby and amateur image when we are on parade or moving about in   large groups.

Cheers


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## Edward Campbell (27 Mar 2005)

It will not surprise anyone to know that I am with pbi  on this one.

Let me put the Doug Bland's "_No Time for Drillâ ?_ article in perspective.   Bland was joining an intense _resource_ debate which raged inside the Canadian Army.   There is no doubt that, in 1981, we wee in pretty rough shape.   Money was tight, we had not been doing enough training of any type - too much money was, many thought, being spent on too few troops in Germany, and, starting in about 1975, the _powers that be_ led, in the main, by some armoured officers like Jimmy Fox and Jack Dangerfield, were trying to reinvigorate formation level organization and training: brigades and divisions.   Exercise Rendezvous 81 (RV 81) was the outcome,

RV 81 vacuumed up every red cent in the army.   Starting in about FY 78/79 almost every discretionary dollar was earmarked for formation level training and for the deployment of the whole bloody army to Gagetown.   Suffice it to say that individual, team, sub-unit and even unit training suffered and Doug Bland, along with many others, registered their protests.   Bland, being a bright fellow and a good writer used parody.   It had the desired effect - generals, like Charlie Belzile who assumed command of the army in Gagetown that summer of '81, listened and, after RV 81, scaled back the combined _ambitions_ of the black hats and the gunners and made more time and money available for sub-unit training.

With specific regard to drill and ceremonial:

"¢	It instils pride in our _regimental families_ and in ourselves, as individual members of our team;

"¢	It allows us to _show off_, in public, doing something which impresses civilians - and the air force, too, I hasten to add; and

"¢	It (good drill) is something like the _secret handshake_ in would-be exclusive fraternities.   It tells us, we who work at it, that we are part of an exclusive club - our regiment, the army, etc, which has high standards to which many might aspire but only a few achieve.

Good drill takes a combination of discipline, attention to detail, cooperation and teamwork, a modicum of fitness, and perseverance - all good soldierly attributes, it seems to me.


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## Kat Stevens (27 Mar 2005)

Drills are drills are drills. Whether it's 3 hours of square bashing, or 3 hours of PWT, it's the same end result: immediate response to a command or series of commands.  ANY kind of drill, weapon or foot, ensures every troop in the loop reacts instinctively and immediately.  It's how they got those boys over the top at Vimy, and how Roarkes Drift found its way into legend, rather than a footnote of a slaughter...IMHO, as always..

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Haggis (27 Mar 2005)

Military custom and tradition is somewhat misunderstood as being archaic.   This breeds inflexibility as soldiers perceive anything that's "always been done that way" to be a custom or tradition and, therefore, not to be messed with.   Not so.

Customs and traditions should be acts or beliefs that serve to bind units together such as:

- Customs regarding "attention areas" and regimental/base memorials;
- Adding a quote or cypher to your signature block (i.e. VP, Ubique, Pro Patria etc. etc.);
- Battle crys ("Chimo!" "Advance!" et al.);
- Never leaving a comrade behind (either in the field or in a bar);

When combined with drill, certain traditions can bring a unique "flair" to a parade or ceremony BUT we must not allow tradition to make our Regiments/branch/corps standard of drill to become idiosyncratic.   There is only one drill manual for the CF, Reg and Reserve, just as there is only one dress manual, one set of CFAOs, QR&O, DAOD etc.

Lastly, there is no time line on tradition.   A new tradition can be instituted if circumstances support it. As well an old tradition can be allowed to fall by the wayside as is the case with many customs and traditions (both civilian and military)  involving the overconsumption of alcohol.   For years it was "customary" to have a few wobbly pop at lunch and head back to work half in the bag.  Military and civilian society as a whole no longer supports that type of behaviour so this "custom" has, in most cases, had it's day.


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## canadianblue (27 Mar 2005)

I can see the importance of drill since its a traditions, and instils pride and confidence in the troops. However I always seem to be having trouble with drill, if a soldier for example were to make mistakes when doing drill, would they ever be kicked out of the army or their regiment. 

I'm just worrying that when I got to BMQ I might make a mistake and get kicked out for not doing drill properly. I know its a stupid question, but I'm not very knowledgeable on this topic.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Mar 2005)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Military custom and tradition is somewhat misunderstood as being archaic.  This breeds inflexibility as soldiers perceive anything that's "always been done that way" to be a custom or tradition and, therefore, not to be messed with.  Not so.
> 
> - Adding a quote or cypher to your signature block (i.e. VP, Ubique, Pro Patria etc. etc.);
> - Battle crys ("Chimo!" "Advance!" et al.);
> ...



There new "traditions" are scarcely worth the effort.  The signature block seems especially trite - especially if you are signing in Gaelic and sending to someone who has no idea what your regimental motto is.  "Sincerely" seems to work fine.  

As for the 'battle crys' - no engineer ever built a bridge under fire while screaming "Chimo" - the use of that word on this message board (much less on dismissal from a brigade parade, which was embarrassing to watch) seems particularly sophomoric to me, and instead of giving the appearance of professionalism, always signalled to me that the writer hadn't quite figured out the difference between military tradition and stupid shit that American high school football players do.

In my humble opinion, of course.

I agree with the need for changing traditions.  The new way to wear a poppy was discussed in depth here; I had no problem with it, even given the accepted rationale.  Times do change.  Inventing traditions out of whole cloth - especially when they are patterned after our un-military seeming cousins to the south - seems like not a good way to go.

Incidentally, this isn't a slam on the Americans.  Their military has always seemed "un-military" to us.  In WW II, we thought them unmilitary because they called petrol "gasoline" and torches "flashlights".  To a Canadian, the American terms were everyday, the British terms somehow "military."   We are no longer in the same boat, but can still spot some of the habits they pick up from civilians (patent leather shoes, those God-awful marching bands with Sousaphones and tinny sounding drums) and call them "unmilitary" when in fact, they aren't - just different from us.

Anyway - DEEDS not WORDS.


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## Infanteer (27 Mar 2005)

I'm not on the "for" side for the sake of agreeing with the "old guard"   , but because I've come to the conclusion - through reading of the history of armed forces combined with my own limited first-hand experience on the matter - that Drill is one of those constants in the history of good quality fighting forces.

It has been with professional fighting units since the Greeks and the Romans began to fight in close order and to dominate the battlefield - one could even say it started earlier if they went back enough source material.   I refuse to believe that Drill has suddenly, after thousands of years, become irrelevant with the advant of "4th Generation Warfare" and "3 Block War".

Digging out my copy of the USMC Small Wars Manual (which is still very relevent today) I can see in the recommended daily training schedules that there are blocks reserved for Drill training.   Consider that this was for a Force that was on a constant expeditionary footing, spending most of its time deployed to complex conflicts fighting with "asymmetric" irregular forces - hmm, if it was relevent for them, perhaps it's relevant for us?


Infanteer (2...3...1)


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## Rfn (27 Mar 2005)

I'll echo the idea. The point has been made by Infanteer, PBI and the rest, way more eloquently than I could. I can't remember who said it, but I recall someone in history saying something to the effect that a good indication of an armies effectiveness is it's standard of personal drill.

Futuretrooper:



> I'm just worrying that when I got to BMQ I might make a mistake and get kicked out for not doing drill properly. I know its a stupid question, but I'm not very knowledgeable on this topic.



Just pay attention, drive your body hard on the square and do your best. If you have trouble with it, ask your instructor for extra training after hours. You may even end up enjoying it. It's extremely rare for a recruit to get the boot for poor drill. (never heard of it happening, but technically possible)

Just between you & me, if you could fail BMQ for making mistakes learning drill, me and I bet lots of the posters here, would have been out long ago.


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## Britney Spears (27 Mar 2005)

You're an OCdt, we understand.


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## Zipper (27 Mar 2005)

So with the concensus that seems to be on the "drill smart, look and fight well" side. Whats the chance of these things happening? Or is this another idea of what "should" happen and never will?

Good posts by the way.


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## Michael Dorosh (27 Mar 2005)

Want to hear what General Crerar had to say?



> As an indication that a good selling job in this matter had been done to the Canadian troops during their long and difficult period of training, and re-training, in the United Kingdom, I was able to pass on to all ranks, 1st Canadian Corps, in February, 1943, a remark made to me by the Commander in Chief Home Forces when I had been with him on a visit to the Eighth Army in Africa. General Paget had then said to me that he could always recognize Canadian troops, when off duty and at a distance by their excellent bearing and turn-out. He had added that their individual saluting, when met, seemed so spontaneous and friendly it was always a great pleasure to return the compliment.
> 
> Well, a few weeks later I was in London one Sunday afternoon. The street I was walking down was deserted--as usual in that city on that day and at that time--when, suddenly, around the next corner hove into view six soldiers, three Canadians and three Americans, arm-in-arm, in pairs and obviously "celebrating". It was a somewhat embarrassing prospect I had to face--but there was no alternative but to go forward and meet it.
> 
> As I approached the cheerful and somewhat unsteady, sextet my presence just couldn't help being noticed. There was some remark made by the leading Canadian and, in an instant, the Canadian soldiers disentangled themselves from their American friends, much to the latters' physical confusion, and marched by me giving me really a "super" salute which I tried to return as if nothing unusual was apparent. A second or so later I passed the three American soldiers who had been so abruptly deprived of the mutual support of their Canadian friends and consequently had been left in what might be termed "a bit of huddle." It was really very hard not to laugh at their confusion and the surprised look on their faces. I maintained outward composure but, inwardly, I chuckled delightedly, at the way our fellows had "shown their stuff" in spite of their personal distractions of that moment. And, as I walked away, I thought that General Paget had certainly had the soundest of grounds for his previous congratulatory remarks.


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## Kat Stevens (28 Mar 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> - no engineer ever built a bridge under fire while screaming "Chimo" - the use of that word on this message board (much less on dismissal from a brigade parade, which was embarrassing to watch) seems particularly sophomoric to me,
> 
> Anyway - DEEDS not WORDS.


Indeed....why not inflate your bag and squeeze us out a tune...?

CHIMO to all my Sapper brothers, all the rest feel free to ignore...  Kat


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## Infanteer (28 Mar 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Indeed....why not inflate your bag and squeeze us out a tune...?



Why am I laughing right now?


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## pbi (29 Mar 2005)

> When combined with drill, certain traditions can bring a unique "flair" to a parade or ceremony BUT we must not allow tradition to make our Regiments/branch/corps standard of drill to become idiosyncratic.  There is only one drill manual for the CF, Reg and Reserve, just as there is only one dress manual, one set of CFAOs, QR&O, DAOD etc.



Drill, if it is to be a meaningful part of unit tradition and ceremonial, IMHO needs to reflect the heritage of the unit in question. There are well-founded differences in drill between Highland, Rifle and Line Infantry units(just to give three examples). I am not a Rifleman, but I absolutely respect their right to "Double Past", to march at the "trail arms", and to crack along at 140 PTM vice the 120 we do in the Line (PPCLI do not do Light Infantry Drill...) or the 110 the Highlanders do. There are differences between PPCLI and RCR on ceremonial parades.  Attempts to squish us all in to one style of drill were (thankfully...) pretty well abandoned not long after Unification. I, for one, see no point in resurrection of pointless conformity when the diversity contributes to unit identity and esprit.

Cheers.


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## Haggis (30 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Attempts to squish us all in to one style of drill were (thankfully...) pretty well abandoned not long after Unification. I, for one, see no point in resurrection of pointless conformity when the diversity contributes to unit identity and esprit.



Agreed, to a point.  Personally I like swaggering along to the pipes at a leisurely 110 paces per minute.  But when on courses or on a tri-service tasking (i.e Canada Remembers) there is no point in persisting with Regimental drill idiosyncrasies. In the early 80's I served on Ceremonial Guard as a Highlander and had to adjust, just as I also had to adjust while on a mixed SLC a few years later.  In these instances it is the standard published in "201" that will always prevail.


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## pbi (30 Mar 2005)

In a "composite" training environment, or in a unit such as the CG in which the appearance and effect of the parade depends upon a common standard of drill, I agree with you. On Regimental parades, I believe that traditional drill practices should be followed.

Cheers.


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## dangerboy (30 Mar 2005)

Just gets hard to remember not to do a regimental right dress on a non-PPCLI parade when it has been drilled into you.


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## Glorified Ape (30 Mar 2005)

A minor question: I was watching a news story the other night about that woman in Borden with HIV/AIDS and there was a clip of troops marching on the base. Since the only drill I've done is on course in St. Jean maybe it's significantly different but I noticed that their arms came up to an abysmally low height (maybe navel height). Is the whole "arm oustretched parallel with the shoulder" thing just a recruit/ocdt school thing?


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## larry Strong (30 Mar 2005)

NO. The last time I looked at "Drill and Cerimonial" there was only one way of marching. What you saw was IMHO a result of a relaxation of standards, and of most of the points brought up in this thread. It bloody disgraceful!


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## x-grunt (30 Mar 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> A minor question: I was watching a news story the other night about that woman in Borden with HIV/AIDS and there was a clip of troops marching on the base. Since the only drill I've done is on course in St. Jean maybe it's significantly different but I noticed that their arms came up to an abysmally low height (maybe navel height). Is the whole "arm oustretched parallel with the shoulder" thing just a recruit/ocdt school thing?



My info might be completely out of date, it's been awhile. But if memory serves, the official height of the arm swing in the manual of drill and ceremonial is waist high, except for drill under arms which is shoulder high. However, I seldom saw this. Most recruit training establishments, Combat Arms units, and PRes units seem to swing arms shoulder high.

Again, it's been a long time since I perused the manual. Maybe it's changed since I left?


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## Acorn (30 Mar 2005)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> Just gets hard to remember not to do a regimental right dress on a non-PPCLI parade when it has been drilled into you.



Took me years to get rid of that stampy-foot thing.

I recall one pde I was on (Remembrance Day, IIRC) where we had multiple bands. Nothing worse than marching part way to a standard 120/min, and then having the pipe band kick in at their 110. Looked like a bag of bumblebees.

Acorn


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## Brad Sallows (30 Mar 2005)

You'd love watching the result of the Battle of the Bands every Nov 11 on the Hastings St echo chamber west of Victory Square, then.


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## Acorn (30 Mar 2005)

A few years trying to match step with 2 PPCLI's "Corps of Bums" is good enough trg for any adversity.

Acorn


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## Edward Campbell (30 Mar 2005)

We did a Div parade in Gagetown back in about 60.  We had three brigades on parade, I think, with all the bells and whistles including some horses, some guns, some tanks, a few (three, maybe?) guards in ceremonial full dress, dozens of 'guards' in bush dress (which was carted to Gagetown on truck mounted racks covered with sheets) and worn just once.  There were at least a half dozen bands â â€œ more I suspect, in addition to the various pipes and drums (Regiment of Canadian Guards and Black Watch) in both 2 and 3 brigades.  I didn't see much from my position somewhere in the _centre of mass_ but we heard horror stories about RSMs having screaming fits and nervous breakdowns, and, and, and ... eventually the officers strolled on to parade and I seem to remember that the generals rode past in jeeps and then we sort of marched past.  :


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## Drummy (30 Mar 2005)

Edward Campbell,

I had my turn at that in 1957 with 2 Cdn Gds before we went to Germany. That Div parade was held at Blissville "Airport", the dustbowl of New Brunswick.  :

IIRC, there were 8 or 9 Inf Bns, 2 Armd Regts, 2 Art Regts, and assorted support units on parade along with the respective bands, and vehicles for the Drive Past.

I don't think there was ever that much dust in the Sahara.   

All the best    Drummy


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## a_majoor (30 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> Drill, if it is to be a meaningful part of unit tradition and ceremonial, IMHO needs to reflect the heritage of the unit in question. There are well-founded differences in drill between Highland, Rifle and Line Infantry units(just to give three examples). I am not a Rifleman, but I absolutely respect their right to* "Double Past", to march at the "trail arms", and to crack along at 140 PTM vice the 120 we do in the Line (PPCLI do not do Light Infantry Drill...) or the 110 the Highlanders do.* There are differences between PPCLI and RCR on ceremonial parades.  Attempts to squish us all in to one style of drill were (thankfully...) pretty well abandoned not long after Unification. I, for one, see no point in resurrection of pointless conformity when the diversity contributes to unit identity and esprit.



You have inadvertently brought up one of the "Blandian" points. Rifle drill didn't even exist until aprox 1805, and was a tactical innovation designed to bring the superior fire of the rifle armed soldiers to bear. Even the idea of marching and performing drill movements to a cadence of 120 beats to the minute was established in the 1700s, allowing units which adopted this to perform drills (including the all important loading and firing of the musket or matchlock) twice as fast as opponents using the "traditional" 60 beats per minute. The reason for Highland regiments to march at 110 beats to the minute are unclear (at least to me), but there may actually be some sort of reason which was practical in 1600....

The maintaining of traditions rooted in the past is one thing, but besides a dedicated history buff, how many of the troops are aware or even care about Sir John Moore's "Light Infantry drill". Indeed Bland pointed out our drill is far more "formalized" than when it was first created during the Napoleonic era. To be usefull, traditions should have some bearing on the present day circumstances of the unit, telling the troops how and why their unit is differently equipped or employed (which really is not the case for the QOR, Brocks or Winnipeg Rifles once they get out in the field, soldiers and tactics being very much the same as those of the RHFC, RCR or R22er).

While I understand and agree with many of the arguments for drill, I will say that spending hours to teach drill movements the soldiers will never use again, or simply teaching drill badly (and teaching 40 candidates a 40 minute drill period with just two instructors, as at St Jean, is hardly a recipie for teaching or learning much of anything) is not very productive, and will probably not induce the qualities that are so often championed by proponents of drill.


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## pbi (31 Mar 2005)

> The maintaining of traditions rooted in the past is one thing, but besides a dedicated history buff, how many of the troops are aware or even care about Sir John Moore's "Light Infantry drill". Indeed Bland pointed out our drill is far more "formalized" than when it was first created during the Napoleonic era. To be usefull, traditions should have some bearing on the present day circumstances of the unit, telling the troops how and why their unit is differently equipped or employed (which really is not the case for the QOR, Brocks or Winnipeg Rifles once they get out in the field, soldiers and tactics being very much the same as those of the RHFC, RCR or R22er).
> 
> While I understand and agree with many of the arguments for drill, I will say that spending hours to teach drill movements the soldiers will never use again, or simply teaching drill badly (and teaching 40 candidates a 40 minute drill period with just two instructors, as at St Jean, is hardly a recipie for teaching or learning much of anything) is not very productive, and will probably not induce the qualities that are so often championed by proponents of drill.



Both of these arguments represent failures of leadership rather than any intrinsic weakness in the argument in favour of drill. In the first one, you assume that leaders in a unit with unique drill will fail to explain its origin and use its uniqueness to instill unit pride. This could certainly be the case in a unit with indifferent leaders who didn't care about unit tradition. However, when I grew up in the RRegtC in Toronto, I was quite familiar with a number of folks in the QOR (about the only unit we got along with...), most of whom impressed by their clear and strong knowledge of why they did Rifle drill. They did not all recall Sir John, but they certainly knew that things such as performing several movements on a single word of command were done to instill alertness and quick thinking. The attempt to draw a direct connection between ceremonmial or traditional practices and what is currently done in the battlefield is really pretty spurious: IMHO on those grounds the USMC would be quite embarassed, as a force with many strong and deep-rooted traditions that do not necessarily extend onto the battlefield, Senior NCO parade appointments wearing swords is an example-why don't they carry swords in battle? If you extend your argument to its logical conclusion we would be rootless as a military culture since any "traditions" we might establish would be outmoded as soon as we went into the next battle.

In the second example, if leaders do not know how to teach, or teach the wrong way, or teach things that are not required (ie: teaching Advance in Review Order may not be required on a BMQ that is under time pressure...) then they are at fault no matter whether you are teaching drill, map using, or PT.

Cheers,


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## pbi (31 Mar 2005)

> minor question: I was watching a news story the other night about that woman in Borden with HIV/AIDS and there was a clip of troops marching on the base. Since the only drill I've done is on course in St. Jean maybe it's significantly different but I noticed that their arms came up to an abysmally low height (maybe navel height). Is the whole "arm oustretched parallel with the shoulder" thing just a recruit/ocdt school thing?



Be careful not to use Borden as an example of a high standard of dress, drill or deportment. It isn't, from what I can see.

Cheers.


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## ricksim (31 Mar 2005)

Hi, i am a foreigner from Malaysia, nevertheless a drill and military enthusiast, and in search of a ceremonial drill manual that covers trooping of colors. Any help i can get from here?


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## Steel Badger (31 Mar 2005)

Not so funny Borden story about drill


In 91 my father died after 30 years of service to the army (RCA and RCASC). As the funeral column rolled towards the Protestant Chapel on base....I obseved (from the veh with the family) two LOG Corporals in Garrison Dress standing like Gumbies with their hands firmly in their pockets, staring slack jawed as the hearse passed.

I dont know who was angrier.....myself or the Assisting Officer......or the old man's Sergeant-Major.

I'm sure the old man would have had some acerbic comment for the two supposed junior NCO's...who probably thru no fault of their own...had never been told...OR HAD REINFORCED....about the paying of compliments...He probably would have also included Hellyer in his approbation.....


I observe this on a daily basis with soldiers who graduate from their basic training unware that they should doff their civilian caps to commisioned officers or salute cenotaphs and memorials.....

This is probably the fault of the training system who view anything not sharp end to be a waste....(Years ago while teaching a GMT Recruit crse we had a "staff learner" drop by to investigate the requirement for teaching the backward and forward action of the C1 Rifle...The staff wallahs position was that "you didnt need to know how a car works to drive it" All present ...reg and reserve politely told him he was away wi the fairies............but soon there after the backward and forward action was removed from the CTS.....)

While sharp end training had definitely improved over the last 10 years......the other side has been neglected.
While many here say we waste time on "ancient battle drills" they forget that the army that soldier thru WW2 and Korea used the teaching of drill and ceremonial to motivate their troops for battle. Certainly, as veterans of my regiment say "if used for chickenshit it was useless" but used intelligently it "instilled pride in self, the unit and the Army as a whole....and made us better soldiers for it."
Certainly one of our vets who was a PL Sgt in NorthWest Europe with us and a CQMS at Kapyong with the Patricias' confirms that while drill and cer is of limited use on the battlefield.......used wisely it creates the soldier who wins on the battle field....

We have to be carefull not to "throw the baby out wi the bath water"....

Soldiers should FEEL that soldiering is a proud calling....not just a job......

SB

(Not like the LOG Major that accosted me one day after I marched my Platoon passed the RCASC memorial and gave the eye's right.....
The Major stopped me and asked me what I was doing...I replied that I was paying compliments to the RCASC memorial........The Major had no clue about the memorial but thought that the "eyes-right" was not required............sad but true...)


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## Haggis (31 Mar 2005)

During the last PSAC strike I was tasked (along with an Air Force MWO) as a Picket Line Monitor.  Early one morning, I was embroiled in a heated discussion with the PSAC Picket Captain about entry rights for employees who wanted to cross the picket line.  During this discussion, a visiting Air Force LCol approached the line.  So I stopped talking to the Picket Captain, slammed to the chow and rendered a sharp high five to the quite surprised LCol.  The line parted to allow him in.

Surprisingly, the Picket Captain was much easier to deal with after that.


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## Old Sweat (31 Mar 2005)

Several years ago an artillery CWO was posted to DLR from regimental duty. To his horror, on his first morning at the bus stop, he noticed a couple of untidy air force NCOs waiting in the shelter. To add to his horror, just before the next bus arrived, a general stolled up to the bus stop. The CWO saluted him, which seemed to take the great man by surprise, while the air people not only ignored the general, but even elbowed their way past him to get seats on the bus.

The next morning when the general arrived, the CWO had the airmen formed up and called them to attention, while he saluted. When the bus arrived, he kept them formed up until the general had time to board the bus, at which point he fell them out.

The third morning he and the general had the bus stop all to themselves, except for some civilians, who after all, don't count.


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## pbi (31 Mar 2005)

Steel Badger and Old Sweat: Good posts. Badger, your story reminds me of one I posted a while back, While I was a subby in 3PPCLI in the early 1980's, we did a ceremonial parade in downtown Victoria. While formed up in "battalion in line" behind the Legislature, waiting to go on, two very young female Naval SubLts wandered down the sidewalk along the frontage of the battalion, chattering and giggling to each other. They passed our Colours with their heads down, oblivious. The CO waited until they had just cleared the Colours, then boomed out "Ladies: get back here and salute my Colours!". The two stopped dead in their tracks, then sheepishly slunk back, saluted red-facedly, and scuttled away. A satisfied murmur passed down the ranks of the battalion. So, all to say, ignorance by those who should know better is sadly nothing new.

Cheers.


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## Haggis (31 Mar 2005)

PBI:

That's a perennial problem in Ottawa with all manner of folks either not saluting when the colours of the Ceremonial Guard pass each day (Actually it's either the colours of the CGG or GGFG as the CG is not a "line" Regiment) or completely ignoring that big granite thingy with the soldier stautes on top on Elgin Strret.

Every year reminders are published in CFSU (Ottawa) Routine orders.

On my last tour, I jacked up several soldiers in a particular camp for not saluting officers.   Some told me they "thought" that they didn't have to salute Reserve officers.   Others would "play invisible" when an officer walked by.

Steel Badger knows of whom and where I speak.


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## Foxhound (31 Mar 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> We did a Div parade in Gagetown back in about 60.   We had three brigades on parade, I think, with all the bells and whistles including some horses, some guns, some tanks, a few (three, maybe?) guards in ceremonial full dress, dozens of 'guards' in bush dress (which was carted to Gagetown on truck mounted racks covered with sheets) and worn just once.   There were at least a half dozen bands â â€œ more I suspect, in addition to the various pipes and drums (Regiment of Canadian Guards and Black Watch) in both 2 and 3 brigades.   I didn't see much from my position somewhere in the _centre of mass_ but we heard horror stories about RSMs having screaming fits and nervous breakdowns, and, and, and ... eventually the officers strolled on to parade and I seem to remember that the generals rode past in jeeps and then we sort of marched past.   :



Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose.

Edward, sounds like your parade in, 60 was the dress rehearsal for the Div. parade we did on RV '81.   Three bands, combats, work dress, CF's and ceremonial dress, everything from jeeps to Loepards in the drive past.   Three guys with heat stroke.   The brigadier almost had the parade do the march past with ordered arms.   I disinctly remember the following command, "Parade will march past in column of route in quick time.   By the right, (sounds of CWO smashing butt plate on the ground to get brigadier's attention), SHOULDER ARMS!"

Speaking of different regimental drill standards, my recruit platoon had to be re-trained in drill during TQ3 due to the fact that back in '78, the RCR had a three-count pause between drill movements, i.e.: One - two, three, four - One!   We looked like basket of kittens doing drill those first few weeks.   Wouldnt you know, shortly after graduating and recieving our hat badges, the RCR decided to adopt the same count as the rest of the CF.    :blotto:


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## Haggis (31 Mar 2005)

Foxhound said:
			
		

> Speaking of different regimental drill standards, my recruit platoon had to be re-trained in drill during TQ3 due to the fact that back in '78, the RCR had a three-count pause between drill movements, i.e.: One - two, three, four - One!   Wouldnt you know, shortly after graduating and recieving our hat badges, the RCR decided to adopt the same count as the rest of the CF.    :blotto:



I remember that three-count pause!  Got me in a lot of trouble on JLC in 1980!

Then, in 1981, I went to CG and learned a whole bunch of new British style idiosyncrasies on the Drill and Duties course from a Patricia Sgt-Maj.  Notwithstanding that, my standard of personal drill went through the roof and I have never had a problem on course since.


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## Kat Stevens (31 Mar 2005)

I used to get wonky looks from young guys for this all the time. Any memorial to dead guys got a high five. Any national flag also got a high five. It cost me nothing, personally, other than a spot of effort and respect.

CHIMO,  Kat


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## Acorn (31 Mar 2005)

Arthur,

As an historian you probably know that drill originated as a battlefield necessity. Marching pace has it's origins in the 17thC (I think - making the mistake of going from memory) and the need to ensure that the muskets and pikes were synchronized. As the musket began to dominate the battlefield drill became more important. As you mention, the speed of execution had battlefield significance.

That's all history. Why do most, if not all, established armies today use drill for ceremonial purposes? It certainly has no direct battlefield application. I would suggest one think to the visceral feeling when a couple of hundred boots land with a simultaneous "crack." Pride. I hate drill practice, but the feeling when the parade is executed is something else.

As to the 110 for Highlanders it was once explained to me thus: "picture the damage to yer bits, hammering alang at 120 wi' a wool kilt held doon by a sporran."

Acorn


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## TCBF (1 Apr 2005)

"Bland made two points: Drill as taught stresses "unthinking obedience",

I seem to remember a Maj Bland in the Hussars in Petawawa in the early 80s.  I do remember the article coming out.   Also some comments about main and secondary armament drills requiring some "unthinking obedience".  But I do recall the busy times as well, so I see both sides.

It seems that now, we spend most of our time "Administering" our troops rather than training them.  We fill out "returns" so second-floor soldiers can enter them into heir computers, then two weeks later more returns so the previously entered data needs to be verified, then more returns when the forms change, then more when we re-org because we are actually getting on a real C-5B Galaxy, and God knows you can't do that without re-orging at least twice, then more returns because it is too inconvenient for the second-floor soldiers to collate the data they already have while we are on a patrol.  They just ask us for more returns and then go suntanning or to the gym while we roll in covered in green dust, feed and water our Coyotes and our men, then go and fill out more returns.

Have I made my point?

Tom


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## pbi (1 Apr 2005)

Haggis: the situation in the area around NDHQ is sometimes quite shocking. I was last at the National Monument in 2001, when I took my family to see the National Remembrance Ceremony before we left Ontario to move to Winnipeg. Before and after the event, I was amazed to see various numpties in uniform stumbling by the National Monument, as well as the Tomb, without even paying it a second glance, never mind a salute. I even had a former NDHQ-ite tell me once that "we didn't have to salute the monument-nobody does it".

As we have said many times in many places on this site, we have a long way to go to instill the warrior spirit in some of our people; a spirit which to me includes respect for fallen comrades at all times and not just on Nov 11. We still have too many idle little time servers wandering about.

Cheers.


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## Edward Campbell (1 Apr 2005)

This still infuriates me, for personal reasons, and, on a distressingly regular basis (but not as often as I should, I admit), I accost serving officers and NCOs on the street - on the National War Memorial _apron_, actually - to try to remind them that:

"¢	It is a military custom to pay respects to our fallen;

"¢	They have received a direct, lawful command to do so - which they have just disobeyed; 

"¢	They have a duty to pay respects and to correct junior ranks who fail to do so, too; and

"¢	No one who matters cares if ignorant civilians give them strange looks; _doing the right thing_ and _doing it right_ is never, ever a cause for embarrassment.

Most look at me as though I just landed from some strange planet; many - the majority, I'm afraid - do not stop long enough to hear what I have to say; several are quite rude and tell me to f*ck off and mind my own business; a few stop, listen, say, _â ?Sorry, sir,â ?_. salute and go about their business.

I was quite loud and rude to an officer in my former regiment who attempted to brush me off; since I could see his name tag I promised that his _regimental mentor_ would receive a full report, which would, likely, be hazardous to his career prospects; he stopped, listened, apologized and did the right thing, etc.

A couple or three years back I dressed down a serving general officer of my acquaintance, in public, on the War Memorial _apron_ - he bought me a drink in the Army Officers Mess about a week later, on a Friday, and apologized, in a loud, clear voice to all present - a goodly crowd.  Well done, him.

I wish I could say that army officers and NCOs, especially arms officers and NCOs were _better_ than the others - not so, in my, personal experience.


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## a_majoor (1 Apr 2005)

I am at fault for not being as clear as I should have been, ceremonial and especially paying respect is very important, and has been since ancient times.

What I was trying to get at was the fact that fossilizing drill movements which made tactical sense in 1805 may not be the best way of going about it. Drill, ceremonials and tradition should be updated to reflect current traditions more closely. I was once reamed for attempting to do such a thing, by suggesting that the platoon "fall in" with the sections in in battle order (BACD), and the weapons det either supernumerary or parcelled out one at the end of each section. From the reaction *that* got, the planet would have imploded and perhaps the universe itself would have been at risk, yet all I was suggesting was the platoon's parade formation reflect their field formation, a not so subtle means of reminding troops of where they need to be in the field.

A side argument might be made about custom and tradition being needed for unit cohesion, the numbered battalions in WWI were often created out of thin air and had no traditions, except the ones they themselves established after the battles (and which mostly died when the CEF was stood down after the war).

Lest the reader think I am some sort of fat staff weenie (only the staff weenie part is true  ;D), I almost launched myself onto the parade square at RMC during a break at the 2003 Military History Symposium after observing some RMC cadets receiving perhaps the poorest drill lession I have ever seen, delivered by a "round" NCO in rumpled and untidy CADPADT as well. (Stop and think how bad your CADPADT would have to be before it is that noticeable!). Luckily common sense and one of the other attendees stopped me (although the cadets would have had a mind blowing experience of some wide eyed civvie in a suit and tie dressing down the instructor then putting them through the paces for the next 20 min).

If we are serious about drill and ceremonial as a vehicle for producing good soldiers, then the CF as a whole needs to put in the time and effort to do so. If we are "Blandian", then we need to think of some alternatives to achieve the same ends. Ignoring the problem or not addressing it will simply result in more horror stories like the ones we are reading here.


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## Meridian (1 Apr 2005)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I used to get wonky looks from young guys for this all the time. Any memorial to dead guys got a high five. Any national flag also got a high five. It cost me nothing, personally, other than a spot of effort and respect.
> 
> CHIMO,   Kat



Someone from RMC can clarify the point, I'm sure, but the parade square flag is saluted at all times when you cross her. 

When I used to do it on our (mediocre, more like parking lot) parade square at CFSJ, more out of personal respect for the flag and country than anything, many colleagues commented it was unnecessary and some Quebecers even claimed stupid.  

It is unfortunately sad that paying respects is now a chore, and that lifting your hand up for a brief moment is somehow a task in and of itself.


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2005)

I sometimes think I am the only one to salute the national flag flying in front of our Armoures; hope I'm wrong but it is distressing to see all the slugs stroll past it as if it doesn't exist every evening.

Then again, I haven't witnessed any Highlanders walk past in the few months. ;D


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> As we have said many times in many places on this site, we have a long way to go to instill the warrior spirit in some of our people; a spirit which to me includes respect for fallen comrades at all times and not just on Nov 11. We still have too many idle little time servers wandering about.



I remember stopping off by the Spr Holopina Memorial on the side of the road in BiH - all of us snapped off a salute as we approached it; it was just instinctive.   The fact that many are not doing the same leads me to think that, as an institution, our eyes are off the ball.

This is bad, real bad.

We've got average Bloggins on the news who look like a gaggle of doofuses trying to march (and doing it poorly), we have Soldiers on the street who dress like dumpy mechanics and we have Soldiers who cannot pay the most basic of military courtesies in the public.

As I said before, it seems the Drill, Dress, and Deportment, those three "D"s that underscore Discipline, the foundation of professionalism and military excellence, have been relegated to the backburners.   This needs to change - we talk about how switched on some other Forces are, like the USMC or the RM, but if anyone looks, they are also the most well turned out soldiers on the parade-square or in public.   A. Majoor probably has some good points on changing drill for the times, but this doesn't mean we ignore it or, worse, do it poorly.

I have a few suggestions on how to remedy this situation:

- A service dress, basically toned down DEU's, that all soldiers will wear when not in the field or conducting training at the battalion lines.   People will probably disagree with me on this point, but I agree with the USMC philosophy that "Combats" are a working uniform and, like a mechanic working with the greasy rig, we shouldn't present ourselves in public in them.   

- Strict enforcement of the 3 "D"s.   This is the job of the NCO's.   If troops aren't doing what they are supposed to, then look to their NCO's.   If the NCO's aren't doing their job, move up the chain and question why the Officer's aren't getting a knuckle on their subordinates (and themselves).   Accountability has to be pressed up the line.   As USMC dress regs say; _"Marines set the example. In any uniform we will maintain the highest standards of appearance -- at all times -- in all places. Exercise good judgment, if there's a doubt -- don't stop"_ - why can't we apply this to the 3 "D"s?   A regulation like this should come from the top and be enforce uniformly from top to bottom (ie: Big bone of mine - if you're above the rank of LtCol, get a haircut; I spend 15 of my own dollars every two weeks to look sharp and not get jacked on parade, so can you - lead by example, right?)

- Finally, the 3 D's along with other things, need to be really hammered on as an essential cornerstone of professionalism; this all starts at the recruit level.   Perhaps we are not giving the attention that is required in *"training the trainers"*?   I remember from my basic I had a drill God marching us around, so we were in good hands - but how can you ensure that this is the case all the time?   Food for thought as follows; the Royal Marines take their soldiers through the Commando Course in a Troop (Platoon) that consists of 6 JNCO's (our Sergeant), a SNCO (our Warrant) and an Officer http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/2668.html :



> You will be divided into sections of about 10 men, each headed by a Corporal who will have been selected for his experience and teaching ability. *Each troop will also have a Drill Instructor and Physical Training Instructor who will get to know your strengths and weaknesses*. Supervising the Corporals is the Troop Sergeant, who is responsible for the administration of the troop and the training programme. The Troop is commanded by the Troop Commander, usually a Royal Marines Captain. He is responsible for the planning, conduct and supervision of training as well as standards, discipline and welfare.



The Drill Leader is a "Specialist Qualification" (we have these as well) http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/5037.html:



> Drill Leader (DL)
> The instructors who play a key role in the transition from raw recruit to fully trained Royal Marine are Drill Leaders. The tasks of Drill Leaders are the teaching and supervising of all recruits, NCOs and Officers under training in drill, personal husbandry and Corps history. With this role comes a wide-ranging responsibility for ceremonial drill, whether it is a unit inspection or a high profile event, such as a Freedom of a City ceremony, Street Lining or Remembrance Parades.



I'd reckon that the CF would benefit immensely by bringing back the PTI as well:



> Physical Training Instructors (PTI)
> The primary aim of the Royal Marines Physical Training specialisation is to prepare men for the physical demands of Commando Service. The secondary aim is to develop physical fitness through sport and adventurous training. Individuals are trained in all aspects of Fitness, PT Theory, Adventure Training, Anatomy and Physiology and Coaching Sport.



I think, for the CF, these would make excellent specializations that would earn extra "Spec pay" for those who take on these additional unit responsibilities and upkeep their own SME status - it could be configured like the old "QL4" sub-streams that we used in the Infantry.   As well as being assigned to training and operational units, these soldiers should be attached to static headquarters (yes, I'm looking at you, NDHQ) as well.

This would also entail a little change to the way we organize our training, but perhaps it will be a change for the good?

My zwei pfennig

Infanteer


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## Neill McKay (1 Apr 2005)

All very good points.

It's interesting to note that the RCMP recently re-established the rank of sergeant-major (re-established isn't strictly the right word -- there had been one at the Depot for a while, but no others) throughout the force.  There's one in New Brunswick who's responsible, as I understand it, for the dress and deportment of members throughout the province (in addition to being a detachment or district commander, I believe).


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2005)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> It's interesting to note that the RCMP recently re-established the rank of sergeant-major (re-established isn't strictly the right word -- there had been one at the Depot for a while, but no others) throughout the force.   There's one in New Brunswick who's responsible, as I understand it, for the dress and deportment of members throughout the province (in addition to being a detachment or district commander, I believe).



I wish they would send one to the detachment in my hometown - we got young Constables doing patrols in enough makeup to go to the bar and wearing DC "Skateboarding" shoes....


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## a_majoor (1 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> - Finally, the 3 D's along with other things, need to be really hammered on as an essential cornerstone of professionalism; this all starts at the recruit level.   Perhaps we are not giving the attention that is required in *"training the trainers"*?   I remember from my basic I had a drill God marching us around, so we were in good hands - but how can you ensure that this is the case all the time?   Food for thought as follows; the Royal Marines take their soldiers through the Commando Course in a *Troop (Platoon) that consists of 6 JNCO's (our Sergeant), a SNCO (our Warrant) and an Officer  * http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/2668.html :
> 
> The Drill Leader is a "Specialist Qualification" (we have these as well) http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/5037.html:
> 
> ...



Contrast that to having one officer, one 2I/C and two section commanders in a 40 candidate training platoon in St Jean, or the sadly typical situation in Meaford where a section commander has a 13-16 man section to deal with alone (and without very much in the way of training support, training aids etc. The centre still hasn't figgfigured why NCOs avoid being tasked to work there). Couple that with clueless people writing the CTP (i.e. Steel Badger's story of taking out the forward and backward action: how can you clear stoppages or even strip and assemble the weapon if you have no idea of what is happening inside?), and the root of the slovenly dress deportment and attitudes of present day soldiers isn't too hard to find.


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2005)

Perhaps we need an institutional reorg looking at "Transformation" for citizen to soldier as the mission.

A new CF Command will be set up that is responsible for Recruiting and Basic Training - Operational Units will get the finished product and give them their trade and OJT training - if the Basic Indoctrination is done right (like the RM Commando Course), then their isn't much that the formations have to worry about "going back to cover".

Everything is done in lockstep to ensure that one part isn't firing off their recruits into an oblivion.  From the moment that a kid steps thorough the recruiters door until his Basic Grad Parade he is handled by a single cohesive department that keeps "transformation" as its watchword.  I'm going on the idea of merging the Recruiting and Basic Training functions as they seem to be unique and independent of other Army (or CF) functions - they are very important in ensuring that the "clay" the units get is molded right from its civilian base.

An ERE posting to this Command (which would probably be split between recruiting and training) would be regarded as a very good thing for career prospects and this new command should take only the best - make a posting here competitive, not randomized by the Career Managers.  Regardless of whether individual branches and arms of the CF want to slack off on their own fiefs (that's their prerogative), this new Command will be responsible for turning out very fit, well drilled and disciplined soldiers who have been exposed to live fire training (Platoon/Company).


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2005)

No way, Infanteer.  Recruiting is always the Good Cop to the Bad Cop of the drill instructors...

It's the same way in the corporate world, of course.  You know the old internet joke about the Devil showing off hell to someone recently dead.  "Yesterday we were recruiting, today you're staff..."

Recruiters are there to glad hand and entice....and you know it!


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## Infanteer (1 Apr 2005)

I don't know if glad handing is what is necessarily needed - look at some of the RM recruiting adds; every person going in knows they are going to get pushed to the limit.  I'd rather be saying this instead of trying to "trick" applicants into thinking they'll coast their way into Green Welfare - we are looking for individuals who wish to dedicate themselves to the profession of arms, not kids to fill up the rosters or draft cards....

I just feel we need to put our best foot forward on this front - it makes so much of an impact on the rest of the military.  Here was an idea on how to do so.  Even if it weren't to be considered, I still feel that both recruiting and basic training (which is different from normal skills training in the military) should be competitive positions that take only the best in the Army.


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## Michael Dorosh (1 Apr 2005)

Well, you're right - one of the recruiters in our building seems to enjoy gladhanding the 18 year old female co-eds.   Can't say I blame them when they come in wearing tight jeans.   I get the feeling they won't be too interested in becoming good infantrymen.

The whole image needs a revamping - you know what, as faddish as they are, I think CADPAT helps out a bunch.   Your DEU idea is good, but the CADPAT may actually be a great marketing gimmick.   Lord knows the practical benefits of camo clothes are greatly exaggerated.  

An 18-24 year old male - your best infantryman candidate - is impressed by camouflage clothing; sell him on the sacrifices and hard work, sure - but don't you think a dress uniform would be a bit of a mixed message?

Of course, so do 45 year old recruiters, but we can't have 18-24 year olds doing everything, now can we....


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## TCBF (1 Apr 2005)

""Contrast that to having one officer, one 2I/C and two section commanders in a 40 candidate training platoon in St Jean, or the sadly typical situation in Meaford where a section commander has a 13-16 man section to deal with alone (and without very much in the way of training support, training aids etc. The centre still hasn't figgfigured why NC Os avoid being tasked to work there). Couple that with clueless people writing the CTP (i.e. Steel Badger's story of taking out the forward and backward action: how can you clear stoppages or even strip and assemble the weapon if you have no idea of what is happening inside?), and the root of the slovenly dress deportment and attitudes of present day soldiers isn't too hard to find."

I was a Squad NCO ( 40 men max)   Trs Sgt, and Pl Comd (160 max, though I think my biggest was 119) in   Cornwallis - 1984 1986, and a Platoon Commander (60 Max), SLC Syndicate Leader and BOTC Platoon Staff in St Jean - 1996 -1999.

The Grad Pde   was actually better on the St. Jean than it was in Cornwallis, in most respects.   What shocked me was how little drill the officers  received in drill, including Sword Drill. 

Cornwallis, however, made up for it in more weapons training and a longer course 10 weeks vice eight).   When I left St. Jean some good planning was going into improving the course, but that seems to have been negated by the "new" military law, as well as philosophy regarding recruiting injured recruits, re-injuring them again (who knew?), and then keeping them around two years while the system gets up the balls to release them.

As for Service Dress - we have one.   We don't need to re-invent work dress.   If I could wear Battle Dress as a teenager and keep it cleaned and pressed, I can do the same with the DEUs.   A pity we never kept the tans, the sharpest uniform we ever got.   I understand that if you were a tad overweight, you looked awful in it, but that's incentive, no?

And recruiting? lets bring back the Mil Dist Manning Depots - a spot on the local base where you can lock up recruits for a week, do GOOD medicals, psych interviews (no more Clayton Matchees), PT testing, a few inspections, and then let them go.   Call them in a few days, weeks or months if you want them later, and take the kitted best ones off to basic.   NO CONTRACT UNTIL THEY GET THROUGH THE MANNING DEPOT.   Their future Regt should have final say.   Of course, to do this, we almost need to split the forces again.   Un-unification thread, anyone? 

Having said that, the vast majority of todays kids will do well.   I don't know while it takes so long to process them.   God help us if we ever mobilize.   I got recruits in Cornwallis who walked into a Recruiting Det sh-t faced, and had barely sobered up by the time they got off the 707 in Greenwood 6 days later into our warm, compassionate care.   


Tom


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## Glorified Ape (3 Apr 2005)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I wish they would send one to the detachment in my hometown - we got young Constables doing patrols in enough makeup to go to the bar and wearing DC "Skateboarding" shoes....



Did anyone else notice that the drill performed by the RCMP members during the services for the slain officers in Alberta was absolutely horrible? Maybe I just caught the wrong sequence of clips but even to my unexperienced eye, the marching was atrocious. I get the impression drill is not something most RCMP officers are extensively trained in?


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## Zipper (3 Apr 2005)

Glorified Ape said:
			
		

> Did anyone else notice that the drill performed by the RCMP members during the services for the slain officers in Alberta was absolutely horrible? Maybe I just caught the wrong sequence of clips but even to my unexperienced eye, the marching was atrocious. I get the impression drill is not something most RCMP officers are extensively trained in?



Actually they are. At first anyway. 

I was there and there was "some" great drill skills. Those of the not RCMP flavour though we're horrible.


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## Edward Campbell (3 Apr 2005)

TCBF said:
			
		

> ""Contrast that to having one officer, one 2I/C and two section commanders in a 40 candidate training platoon in St Jean, or the sadly typical situation in Meaford where a section commander has a 13-16 man section to deal with alone (and without very much in the way of training support, training aids etc. The centre still hasn't figgfigured why NC Os avoid being tasked to work there). Couple that with clueless people writing the CTP (i.e. Steel Badger's story of taking out the forward and backward action: how can you clear stoppages or even strip and assemble the weapon if you have no idea of what is happening inside?), and the root of the slovenly dress deportment and attitudes of present day soldiers isn't too hard to find."
> 
> I was a Squad NCO ( 40 men max)   Trs Sgt, and Pl Comd (160 max, though I think my biggest was 119) in   Cornwallis - 1984 1986, and a Platoon Commander (60 Max), SLC Syndicate Leader and BOTC Platoon Staff in St Jean - 1996 -1999.
> 
> ...



I'm showing my age again, and my failing memory.

As I remember recruit training in the Regimental Depot (an established unit with a CO (major) and a permanent staff, a posting to the Depot was considered a 'plum' job and an honour â â€œ never happened to me!) we were formed into platoons with three sections each.  We had a platoon commander who, I think â â€œ I cannot remember ours, not at all â â€œ was _attached_ from the battalion (we, in my platoon, were all _earmarked_ for 2RCR), the platoon sergeant and three section commanders (corporals) were all Depot staff â â€œ excellent soldiers who were specially, additionally trained to teach recruits,  Then we had three lance corporals, section 2i/cs â â€œ all from the 2nd Battalion because, if I remember correctly, we were told, several times, that ten recruits was too many for one corporal â â€œ five or fewer was about right.

I think recruit training was 24 weeks â â€œ three roughly equal phases and it was followed, immediately by the Group 1 LI (leading infantryman) course â â€œ also run by the Depot but there were, if memory serves, a couple of Guards and Black Watch NCOs to help maintain _quality control_ across the infantry, I think.  (Art Johnson: can you help, my memories are a bit blurred (a stroke does that) and I may be getting recruit and basic officer training mixed up.)

We had about 30 soldiers in our platoon; I think about 25 of us were fresh of the street (because, according to our sergeant: the garbage cans were all frozen over) and the rest had been _back-squaded_ because they had failed their first try but were thought to have potential to pass with a second try â â€œ we lost quite a few, maybe six or eight in the first few (four or five) weeks, just after the first physical standards test, we picked up a few more guys _back-squaded_ from the platoon ahead of us and I think we finished with about 20 to 25 fellows, almost all of us went to 2RCR and remained pretty firm friends for a long, long time.

It was a good system â â€œ expensive, but it worked.  Maybe 24 weeks was too long, maybe we old guys weren't as smart as you young guys.

All that to say that I still believe that recruit (and trade group 1, or TQ3 or whatever it's called now) training is the most important training we do, followed by junior NCO training, basic officer training, senior NCO training and so on.  I would like to see infantry training, from recruit to sergeant in the *exclusive* hands of the infantry â â€œ ditto armour, artillery and so on, within the army.  I would like all sailors be trained, from recruit to petty officer by the navy: bos'ns and electronics technicians and cooks and clerks, too.  Ditto for the air force,  Someone else mentioned (here, this thread?) that the air force are highly professional/serious about the things that matter: too true, and they used to be equally serious and fairly, moderately 'smart' too, when air force NCOs had both pride and a stake in the Air Force, as an institution.  Sometimes efficiency isn't very effective.

What I'm advocating would be very expensive.  We complained, a few decades back, because Depot _robbed_ us of people because training  establishments are never manned at a high enough level â â€œ just ask them!  Maybe all arms, regional (PPCLI/LdSH(RC) â â€œ R22R/12RBC â â€œ RCR/RCD) _battle schools_ are a better answer.

All free advice has the same value.


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## pbi (4 Apr 2005)

> Sometimes efficiency isn't very effective



My feelings exactly. The "tri-service" training system, especially at the recruit level, is outdated, wasteful, and not really focused on anybody's operational needs. It is a relic of an outdated "systems" approach that placed "efficiency" above everythig else, and a 1960's military concept that saw war being a predominantly nuclear activity, with humans being essentially involved in the clean-up and re-occupation after the big bang. Technology would solve evrything in a push-button war. Unification resulted in the reduction of recruit training to a single pablum standard for everybody. We have learned (over and over...) since that time that we need soldiers to be soldiers first and supporting trade second. The Navy has a similar need (perhaps even moreso than the Army). It is only the Air Force, with its relative lack of any environmental operational demands (except for the very small number of officers and NCOs who will actually go into the air to fight) that is served   by the present system.

Unfication focused on the wrong end of the system. Instead of fiddling with the force generation process, which was best left to the enviromental commands, it shoud have focused on force employment producing a truly joint combat force, which it never did. IMHO the sooner we dismantle the remnants of Unifcation in the force generation system, the better.

Cheers.


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## Veterans son (5 Apr 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> I'm showing my age again, and my failing memory.
> 
> As I remember recruit training in the Regimental Depot (an established unit with a CO (major) and a permanent staff, a posting to the Depot was considered a 'plum' job and an honour â â€œ never happened to me!) we were formed into platoons with three sections each.   We had a platoon commander who, I think â â€œ I cannot remember ours, not at all â â€œ was _attached_ from the battalion (we, in my platoon, were all _earmarked_ for 2RCR), the platoon sergeant and three section commanders (corporals) were all Depot staff â â€œ excellent soldiers who were specially, additionally trained to teach recruits,   Then we had three lance corporals, section 2i/cs â â€œ all from the 2nd Battalion because, if I remember correctly, we were told, several times, that ten recruits was too many for one corporal â â€œ five or fewer was about right.
> 
> ...




Excellent message!


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## jmacleod (6 Apr 2005)

Despite over thirty years of consulting activity including many projects with DND connections in
Canada and abroad, my partners and associates realized lately that we (we are all well over 65
years) really do not know much about the Canadian Army, other than what we have
read, and experienced first hand, on the fringes. The Canadian public we think is focused on
media coverage of casualties and the occasional disciplinary problems, and the media has no
real grasp of the Canadian soldiier's lfe style, training, dedication and competence. We worked on
a competitive bid on the LUVW Project (the Ford Motor Co connection), and were impressed by
the people we met - several associates were former CF infantry and engineer officers. Years ago
when we were a lot younger and in the RCAF, several of us were invited by friends in the RCR
then stationed in London Ontario (an RCR Depot I think) to watch their Trooping the Color -
never forgot it, very impressive. Just an observation, but maybe there should be more public
parades. COL (Ret) Ian Fraser who commanded RCR at CFB Gagetown runs the annual and highly
rated N.S. International Tattoo in Halifax, an annual event, which is a great showcase for the
Canadian Army (regular and reserve) - I also remember clearly when the 1st Canadian Parachute
Battalion returned to Canada as a Unit, and marched up Barrington Street in Halifax to the Grand
Parade, behind the RCN Band - never forget the brown para boots and the maroon berets, in
June or July, 1945. In any event, a few thoughts from MacLeod


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## Edward Campbell (6 Apr 2005)

Again, for what it's worth: over the past few years we have had a few essentially _unpublicized_ events here in Ottawa which have drawn large and enthusiastic crowds â â€œ the combined RCD/RCR Boer war centennial parade in 2000 and last year's trooping by 3RCR, both on Parliament Hill â â€œ come to mind.  In both cases I overheard civilians commenting enthusiastically about what they were seeing/had just seen and, simultaneously, complaining that they had not heard/read about this.

Even inside DND, I'm told, publicity was poor.  I, personally, can report that just a week or so before the Boer War centenary parade I mentioned it to some colleagues â â€œ a mix of serving and retired officers â â€œ in the Army Officers' Mess, here in Ottawa, (so they were _insiders_) and most were surprised to hear about it.

I agree with *jmacleod* that many (most?) civilians are highly impressed by a good parade; I suspect that such events â â€œ and Tatoos and the like, too â â€œ raise public awareness of the military, a wee bit, and, by about the same wee bit, may increase public _support_, too.  The question is: do the benefits outweigh the costs?

Parades and the like do have costs.  A battalion which is getting ready for a trooping _downs tools_ for a few weeks while drill and rehearsals become the unit's preoccupation.

_(3RCR's trooping was delayed by almost a year because a tour of duty in Afghanistan took priority; I'm told that Don Denne considered canceling but many, many NCOs â â€œ junior NCOs â â€œ told him that they were willing to do all the extra work as soon as they were back, and before they were dispersed, to do a good trooping, which included honouring the 50th anniversary of 3RCR's tough battle at Hill 187 in 1953.

I understand that Geordie Elms (RCR) had a excellent Presentation of Colours when he commanded the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada  but that, once again, it was pricey â â€œ in time and money, most of which had to be raised privately.  That being said, more good parades by my militia units might help a lot but: you need enough people â â€œ parading 100 people, mostly rank and file, again and again, to do drill and ceremonial at the expense of _operational_ training is hard, I think, for most militia units to manage.)_

Good idea, *jmacleod*, but I wonder how we stretch our units even more.


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## Steel Badger (7 Apr 2005)

Sir, ref: the Argylls Presentation of New Colours Parade

The Parade was hard work....and it did take alot of money, effort, and time....

But we still carried on with the remainder of the training year....and did very well.....

It was a great event...it raised public awareness of the military, it opened a lot of eyes and guided not a few recruits to our door...

And it also was good for us.....

I was extremely proud of my troops for the effort that they put into the workup trg and for the sacrifices they made in their civvy lives to parade before the Col in Chief....

They did a damn fine job on the parade, and I think you would be hard-pressed to find a single soldier who resented the parade or tthought the dollars could have been better spent...

The parade was for us (and not by the way, for Ms Copps as some have thought), our Veterans and our regimental family....It celebrated the service and achievements of the Argylls, and everyone who has worn our badge, and in that sense alone was certainly not a miss-allocation of funds....

It re-inforced our sense of self-worth, pride and professionalism and helped bring us closer together as a Regimental Family, and while the troops who were on parade might have bitched about the work involved in the prep phase, they all agreed the end state was worth it....

It acted as a motivator to the soldiers, it was public confirmation of their position as Canadian Soldiers and, I believe pushed them to excell when we got back into the field again...

I am not arguing for parades of that magnitude every year ( I think I'd give myself a stroke) but ignoring ceremonial......(or even the proper way of paying compliemnts) in the name of focus on field training i think is wrong....

The ceremonial side of the house (Parades, uniforms, badges) helps greatly in producing the proud, alert and motivated soldier who excells in the field....
The soldier must know that he is serving something greater than him or herself....and the ceremony helps in doing so.....

Can we do both?....balance the field and Ceremonial? I would argue yes....

Recently, on the 31 Bde ex in Kentucky, We held a memorial service for a young Argyll who tragically lost his life in a car accident. The parade was not elaborate nor pompous...It was spartan and dignified.;.... and required for us as a unit and as a family....
Likewise, the members of the Unit remaining at home attended the young soldier's funeral in uniform to represent his "other" family...
His parents were very moved by this and realized just why their son had become so attached to his service in the Army....it reinforced their sense of their son's worth to us, the regiment and to his country....


Again....I am not arguing for the primacy of parade over Company attacks etc.........I am simply observing that when you remove the ceremonial, the "formal" side of Army life you can lose so much more than the ability to turn about on the march......

Not every parade need be a trooping or a presentation of Colours.......Use of ceremonial can be suited to the situation, as elaborate or simple as required....but it IS part of being a soldier, just as surely as the mastery of his or her trade is the hallmark of the Canadian Soldier.


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## Edward Campbell (7 Apr 2005)

Steel Badger said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> They did a damn fine job on the parade, and I think you would be hard-pressed to find a single soldier who resented the parade or tthought the dollars could have been better spent...
> 
> ...



Bang on!

Well said, Steel Badger; I agree 100%.


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## Cliffy433 (8 Apr 2005)

A few anecdotes... if they don't make it clear, I'm all for Drill - it costs nothing and you learn more than you think you do at the time.  Knowing Drill, and drills, kept my C6 firing on my JNCO FTX (yeah, that's right, I'm a Medic and I was the gunner - not sure if the staff did it as a joke, but I carried that pig like a badge of honour!).

Someone above mentioned RCMP Drill... when I was in Jr High in SK, we did a tour of the RCMP Depot in Regina.  Watched a Drill class.  F**kin A!!!  It was hard, sharp, disciplined, and a thing of beauty!!  And that was CLASS!  Their Drill Instr put the fear of God in ME, and observer.  RC's I've spoken to since say it's gentler now, but the standards are just as high.  They just don't practice much once they are on "the job".

Other Police Services... I can only comment on the City of Winnipeg PS, because they used to do their final parades at Minto, as well as a fair bit of practice.  Plus I know a couple R Wpg Rif NCOs who were asked to teach drill to their own classmates.  They were too "hard" on their fellow recruits, and reminded by their staff that they were police, not soldiers.  Non-CF trained Drill Instructors were positively soft.  They joked and laughed with the candidates when mistakes were made and during breaks - one incident that I witnessed.  However, it took that course a week to prepare for their grad parade.  As opposed to two days for 2PPCLI change of command in 2000.  Hmmm, interesting...

Finally, sure, Drill class on the parade square in Wainwright sucks in the 40 degree C sun, but there is so much honour and pride in a successful parade!  I opted to do "Medical Coverage" on ONE Remembrance Day, and hated it!  I felt so guilty, that I volunteered for Cenotaph Guard in Saskatoon this past Nov 11 - the largest attended service in Canada outside of Ottawa.  Again, a true honour - I'd do it again in a heartbeat!

Ok, not finally, sure, learning Drill correctly takes time.  To maintain it, one small parade a week, EASY!  And it is ZERO COST training, that will serve in every aspect of a professional soldier's life!


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## larry Strong (14 Apr 2005)

tlm said:
			
		

> Someone above mentioned RCMP Drill... when I was in Jr High in SK, we did a tour of the RCMP Depot in Regina.   Watched a Drill class.   F**kin A!!!   It was hard, sharp, disciplined, and a thing of beauty!!



Well they must blank it out after leaving depot. I wattended Memorial Day last year, and the RCMP is the only unit in my town and their drill was appaappalling


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