# Hurricane Katrina



## Warvstar (30 Aug 2005)

> Floodwaters rising, devastation widespread in Katrina's wake


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina/index.html

I'm suprised no one has written anything on this yet, this is not good for the United States or Canada.

I hope they have a swift recovery.

Also I wanted to post that I'm thinking about going down there for a little while to help out in any way I can, any advice or good organization to go with?


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## Mappy (31 Aug 2005)

It has been mentioned in the New Orleans thread.

It's going to be bad in terms of hurricane death and destruction.


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## bossi (31 Aug 2005)

Warvstar said:
			
		

> ... Also I wanted to post that I'm thinking about going down there for a little while to help out in any way I can, any advice or good organization to go with?



1.  They've got their hands full trying to deal with the survivors.

2.  "Convergence" is a phenomena associated with disaster response, whereby responders (and well-intentioned but often untrained volunteers) converge on the scene ... sometimes tripping over each other.

3.  The absolute best organisations to deal with the New Orleans disaster are:
a.  The American Red Cross (which can be supported by donations, and therefore you're not depriving survivors of precious logistics support such as food/water and shelter if you were to go there ...)
b.  FEMA
c.  Their National Guard

But, that's only my professional opinion as an Emergency Management planner.


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## Warvstar (7 Sep 2005)

How would Canada react if a Hurricane hit one of our citys, how would they handle something like that? We would need military assistance from the USA in such an event, am I right? With such an underfunded small army, how would we respond to something like this? Recruit people into the Army to help out? I dont think so, we would need allot of help from allot our police forces, and we would need much more help from other allies such as the USA.


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## geo (7 Sep 2005)

Let's face it.........Why would you think that we would be able to do any different?

Katrina was of sufficient force that the biggest kid on the block did not have the resources available to "bounce back" from a squal that big... to the point that Canada IS sending a Coast Guard ship, a couple of frigates, a DDH and 3 Sea Things...... along with road convoys with cots and medical supplies AND even Mexico is sending aid

When we had our Ice storm - they had power utilities from as far south as Florida
When they had Andrew - we had Hydro crews down in Dade county.

The problems that New Orleans got.... are problems that the US gov't has known about for a long time.... build a city in a punchbowl shaped area - below sea level: a city that requires a massive network of dykes to keeps it's streets dry - and you're looking for trouble.

Fortunately for us, Canada does not have the resources or desire to build a city that's handicaped from the start (maybee the US should think about this before contemplating the rebuilding)


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## Blakey (8 Sep 2005)

> Fortunately for us, Canada does not have the resources or desire to build a city that's handicaped from the start


Winnipeg came came quite close to it in 97,( again). So I wouldn't go so far as to say that _Canada does not have the resources or desire to build a city that's handicaped from the start_ Winnipeg has been around for quite some time. But then again, thats what happens when you build a city on swamp land....

*1997*











U of M 1950





Morley Ave 1950


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## Mappy (8 Sep 2005)

Back in History people built forts/towns/villiages because they were geographically pleasing.  For example, how many old world cities are near some sort of body of water?  For a great deal of time, water was the main mode of transportation.

Also, back way in time, people flocked to areas with Fertile grounds.  Usually the soils became fertile because the area had been flooded prior.  

We also didn't know that much about how urbanization effects water levels and raises the impact of flash flooding (or in New Orleans case, proper drainage).  So during the 20th century, when urbanization was rampant, builders may have overlooked this, or might not have known.

Perhaps when New Orleans became populated they didn't know that a majority of the city was below or very close to sealevel.  Now, its not an excuse for not being prepared for the eventual Category 5 hurricane, and it is something to consider when rebuilding, but its not their fault for being there in the first place.

What we can take from the Katrina experience is to be better prepared.  IE. Better evacuation routes, having a "storm fund", and just knowing that when a hurricane is about to hit to leave the coastal areas.  

Canada will never really get big hurricanes....but Ontario, Quebec and the East Coast do have the potential to get category 1 and maybe category 2's.


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## Eowyn (8 Sep 2005)

Warvstar said:
			
		

> How would Canada react if a Hurricane hit one of our citys, how would they handle something like that?


A hurricane did hit a Canadian city.  Remember Hurricane Juan and Halifax?


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## Shadow Cat (8 Sep 2005)

I was thinking that when i was reading this whole post.  

I live in HRM and I can tell you that yes we were not hit as hard as them but we did suffer some crippling damages, in fact it has been two years and we still haven't fully recovered.  Some people went without power, water and phone services for a month.  Our most beloved histroical park has been almost completely wiped out and will never be the same.

I honestly think that even if a hurricane hit us as hard as Katrina hit the states that we would not be in the same position as them.  For reasons that were mentioned above.


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## Padraig OCinnead (9 Sep 2005)

I shudder to think of something of that magnitude hitting anywhere in Canada. Like many others here I do not think for a moment we would have reacted any different than the folks in Norlans. From what I've seen of most Canadians they seem to be so reliant for any sort of action or help from out Government that they would be hard pressed to get themselves out of any hardship. We have let ourselves be slowly lured in bit by bit with this cradle to grave welfare society that exists here in Canada. Most of the ones who remained behind, later railing against everyone one for their foolish choice, were more than healthy enough to find some way out of there. They could have walked out if they had to. 

We've all seen long columns of refugees in Kosovo, Macedonia and countless African spots.  They marched for weeks on end till they escape the threat and reach safety. What was so different with Norlans and what would be different with Canada? In those other places, they know that it is up to them to shift for themselves. They have been self reliant and did something about it. Canada was founded by people much like that, who hacked out a home and land out of a land that killed off the weak and shiftless.


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## 48Highlander (9 Sep 2005)

For those of you talking about winnipeg and halifax, those are cities.   Katrina flattened a good portion of several STATES.   Imagine if everything between (and including) Toronto and Montreal got wiped out.   How well do you think we could handle THAT?

Keep in mind there's about 65,000 military personnel working down there at the moment.


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## Blakey (9 Sep 2005)

> For those of you talking about winnipeg and halifax, those are cities.  Katrina flattened a good portion of several STATES.  Imagine if everything between (and including) Toronto and Montreal got wiped out.



Those two floods in Winnipeg ('50 & 97) were not just the city, the flood waters reached as far south as Emmerson (75km's from Winnipeg)
As well as east, west, and north of the city.




Just some interesting facts...
-At the flood crest, the flow in the Red River approaching Winnipeg was *138,000 cubic feet per second*, enough water to *fill Winnipeg's Pan Am Olympic Pool once every second.*
-800 properties were protected by secondary dikes: 750 by sandbags and 50 by earth fill. 
-Approximately *8.1 million sandbags *were filled and delivered in the City. If you placed the *sandbags end to end in a straight line, they would run roughly from Winnipeg to Vancouver.* The City's four sandbag machines produced 4.4 million sandbags and volunteers hand filled 3.7 million sandbags.  
Info found here >>> http://www.winnipeg.ca/Services/CityLife/HistoryOfWinnipeg/Flood/


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## Shadow Cat (9 Sep 2005)

And the fact remains.  We are canadians and we don't live below sea level so we would not not ever see this type of damage.

It didn't just affect HRM either it affected the whole province, PEI and parts of NB.  Again no flooding like that but there were downed trees that made roads impassable, their was flodding that made roads impassible, homes and vehicles were lost and their was extensive property damage.  Don;t forget we also had a major snow strom that following winter which shut down the city for five days.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Sep 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> For those of you talking about winnipeg and halifax, those are cities.   Katrina flattened a good portion of several STATES.   Imagine if everything between (and including) Toronto and Montreal got wiped out.   How well do you think we could handle THAT?
> 
> Keep in mind there's about 65,000 military personnel working down there at the moment.


well, living out here in the Free Republic of Alberta, I'd do a little happy dance.  Stand down, before you start......


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## Tornado (9 Sep 2005)

I suppose, since we're discussing weather, I should put my 5 cents in (inflation since gas isn't cheap). Being a wx (weather) guy for the military I can honestly say that our "fears" of hurricanes of that magnitude can be alleviated.  Hurricanes begin as tropical storms in the ITCZ (Intertropical Convergence Zone) http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa050301a.htm which, is an area 5 degrees north and 5 degrees south of the equator.  Due to the amount of _warm_, moist air in the region, storms are commonplace.  As a Tropical Storm gains momentum, it eventually "breaks-away" from this region and begins it's trek. Click this link for up to date tracks of current storms ( http://www.solar.ifa.hawaii.edu/Tropical/tropical.html )  If you clicked the link, you will see that the current storms are tracking in their expected routes.  In other words these are very common trajectories which are following the typical norms of climate data gathered for decades (even centuries, in some cases).

     Once a storm hits land, it's then introduced to our old friend, Friction. Yep, no KY for the Eastern U.S.  The storm rapidly loses strength and eventually peters out.  Another factor involved refers to the emphasis placed on _warm_ moist air earlier.  In order for a storm to gain strength, it needs this contant influx of convection (warm air rising).  I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, here in Canada, there are no plans to open a Club Med on the East coast.  Anyone who has been to the tropics can tell you what real _warm_ moist air feels like.  We just aren't blessed with that...yet. (Everyone north of the border knows that Global Warming is really a secret plan by Canadians to change the climate in our favour. So everyone keep those fluorocarbons coming).

BUT Met Guy! Wait!  What about Hurricane Juan?

Yes.  Hurricanes DO occasionally ride the Gulf stream in order to get political asylum in Canada.  Lord knows, it's more efficient than a Chinese freighter.  However, it's important to note what constitutes a hurricane. It's all about the wind (excuse me).  A hurricane is NOT a hurricane unless it can sustain winds greater than 63kts (73 mph or 118 kmh).  Therefore, you are officially experiencing hurricane force winds when it's sustained mean is as low as 64 kts.  Any navy fellas can tell you that happens a lot in their AOs.

The various scales are defined in this link to the Saffir-Simpson Scale. http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/aboutsshs.shtml

In conclusion, we can all rest assured that Juan is about as hard as it gets for Canada (until there are enough fluorocarbons present).  Our biggest concerns?  Forest Fires, some spring flooding, Ice Storms, Tornadoes, West coast earthquakes / tsunamis, the Leafs winning the Stanley Cup (we can probably rule that out though), and the Liberals getting in ever again.  :dontpanic:

Now, rest assured, I understand it was purely hypothetical and really, we're only discussing what would happen IF a disaster (any disaster) were to happen on that scale in Canada.  From what I've witnessed however, there has been an exceptional response to any disaster relief in our country.  I believe our response would be the same no matter the scale.  We in the CF have always only worked with what we have and, for that, I am proud to have been a part of it.  It's the attitude of our soldiers, airmen/women and sailors that makes the difference.  (And there IS a difference, believe me.)  I only wanted to assure anyone that many of the complications associated with a Hurricane as opposed to other types of disasters can be eliminated or, at the very least, scaled down.  (Armed with shovels, the military CAN rescue Toronto. IF we really wanted to. Show of hands?  Anyone?  Beuller? Beuller?)

Take care!


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## mover1 (9 Sep 2005)

Hurricane Juan, the Ice Storm, The Winnipeg Floods and the snow storm that caused the Toronto Mayor to panic like your troop WO on a small party tasking were all a part of these types of disasters. 
People loosing power in winter not a disiaster enough for you!!
Flooding and entre region not enough.
Selling your snow plows before the winter not a recipie for disaster.

What you are trying to question is weather or not our military can handle a situation like Katrina. 
The point is moot. Stating 65000 Military in the area does not mean anything. A poweful army will not answer the questions on why, after 9/11 in the age of homeland security, anti terrorism and blue ,yellow and orange alerts the USA was caught off gaurd on how to deal with those affected. What if it were terrorists intead of nature. How would things have been different?
We are not the good ole USA and we will never be. Our cultures are different as well as our governments and infra srtuctures. 
As for the people we as a nation are pretty hardy, and most likely will be able to figure out ways of surviving.
Could Canada handle a Katrina like disaster. 
YES it already has. 

Tornado  that was one funny post.  Hats off to you.


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## Mappy (9 Sep 2005)

> Hurricanes DO occasionally ride the Gulf stream in order to get political asylum in Canada



haha nice!


Good points about other Natural Disasters.  In another type of "natural disaster prediction", The West coast is overdue for a strong earthquake, and earthquakes can result in all other sorts of problems as well.

We cannot be prepared for everything and crap does happen.  No one controls the weather or the continental plates, so when stuff does happen, its better to survive and help others than blaming people for "causing" natural disasters or not getting any warning.  Just the fact that "this could happen here" should be sufficient for some basic preparations.


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## Fry (15 Sep 2005)

Damage would be great indeed, if Katrina hit Canada, but I don't think we would be in such a great state of turmoil as New Orleans. New Orleans is a hole. Now I don't mean the city is bad, or dirty, but it is down below sea level. It was a disaster waiting to happen, IMO.


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## mover1 (16 Sep 2005)

Can't wait to see what Saturday brings here in N.S.


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## Spr.Earl (17 Sep 2005)

We did not do too bad with the floods in Manitoba in 97,the Ice Storm in Quebec,the Forest Fires in B.C.,the Forces came into play asap,with no questions asked.
We don't have the bureaucracy that the U.S. have,we act as a Nation should,we all jump in asap, which we have done over the last 8yrs or so  but I hate to see when Vancouver gets the big earth quake then we can judge our selves.


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## geo (21 Sep 2005)

From what I'm hearing, big problem the people of New Orleans suffered is that the relief effort was driven from the bottom up.... in other words, the feds were waiting for the state to ask them for things and the state was waiting for the city to ask for things.... so the FEMA expertise was being held in reserve - they did not "drive" the response even though they were the best equipped to do so.

In New Orleans = New Baghdad ?
One thing that continues to bother me is that all international & local news reports from New Orleans shows troops going thru the city - M16s in hand.... Why???? 
I appreceate the fact that there might be some looters wandering the deserted streets/rivers of the City but, would imagine that simple visibility patrols would have the same effect. Let the local Constabulary look after the Looters.

With weapons in hand, the US is giving the world the image that they don't have a strong & stable government "of the people, by the people" at the helm.  
IMHO


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## George Wallace (21 Sep 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> From what I'm hearing, big problem the people of New Orleans suffered is that the relief effort was driven from the bottom up.... in other words, the feds were waiting for the state to ask them for things and the state was waiting for the city to ask for things.... so the FEMA expertise was being held in reserve - they did not "drive" the response even though they were the best equipped to do so.


If you had a plumbing problem at home, do you call the plumber or does he just barge into your home and start to work on your plumbing?  This is the same thing, but on a larger and higher level.  It is the way the system works.



			
				geo said:
			
		

> One thing that continues to bother me is that all international & local news reports from New Orleans shows troops going thru the city - M16s in hand.... Why????
> I appreceate the fact that there might be some looters wandering the deserted streets/rivers of the City but, would imagine that simple visibility patrols would have the same effect. Let the local Constabulary look after the Looters.
> 
> With weapons in hand, the US is giving the world the image that they don't have a strong & stable government "of the people, by the people" at the helm.



If you watched the news at all, you would have seen that the situation in NO had deteriorated into a state of anarchy. You would have seen that the local authorities could not act to enforce the law, so the Federal Forces were called in, and that included the Military.  It is how the situation escalated and we have now seen how the problem was handled.


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## geo (21 Sep 2005)

If you say so.........

The US suddenly doesn't appear to be that great friendly democracy anymore.


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## Fry (21 Sep 2005)

Since Rita is upgraded to a category 4 hurricane, I think that the work in New Orleans isn't over yet. Hopefully, Rita will fizzle out before getting up to our neck of the woods.


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## geo (21 Sep 2005)

Rita is reportedly headed for Texas panhandle..............
hope those people evacuated from the Superdome to the Astrodome don't get a sudden feeling of Deja vu.


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## Melizard (27 Sep 2005)

Shadow Cat said:
			
		

> And the fact remains.   We are canadians and we don't live below sea level so we would not not ever see this type of damage.



Exactly.

Starting in January, I begin my degree in "Applied Disaster and Emergency Studies" at BU, so hopefully in the future, I'll show 'em how it's done.


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## the 48th regulator (28 Sep 2005)

Interesting article I found,



> Canada's military unprepared to handle major disaster, new report says
> 
> 
> 
> ...



dileas

tess


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## kimmie (10 Oct 2005)

As bad at Katrina was, it was BAD, I think looking at the bigger picture...beyond the flooding and destruction, look at how long citizens and others waited for help. I think with early action of letting people know how bad it was(I hear some meteorologists made it clear and no one believed them) the overall loss of property(I mean priceless belongings within the home) and life could have been avoided. And the aftermath was a total chaotic mess, no help or skills employed at all. People just lost their minds and it continues still today.  

I mean come on, "Brownie" told the media he didn't know about what had happened until 3 days later...really was he hiding in a bunker somewhere with absolutely no contact with the outside world?? Really?!?!?! Thus why, he is now out of a job. : 

So hindsight is 20/20, I think we all learned a valuable, yet expensive and very sad, lesson.  :'(

My thoughts and prayers are still with all the people involved in the tragedy.  :-\


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## RangerRay (10 Oct 2005)

I shudder to think about what will happen when the "Big One" hits the Lower Mainland and Vancouver Island of British Columbia.  I think it will make Katrina look like a garden party at Buckingham Palace.

Unlike a hurricane, there is no warning of a large earthquake.  Everybody, rich and poor, white, Asian, Native, etc., is stuck there.

By all accounts most bridges and older buildings, including schools, are not earthquake proof, including Lions Gate Bridge.  Richmond, where the airport is located, will liquify.  

Add to that the areas organised crime gangs and Downtown Eastside junkies, there is a potential law enforcement problem ready to explode at the slightest sign that the civil authority has lost control.  One thing in our favour is that unlike NOPD, the municipal police agencies in the area don't have a history of corruption.

The closest regular army units are located in Edmonton.  From what I've heard, it would take them 3 days to arrive in the disaster area.

We won't be able to rely on our American cousins for assistance because they will be dealing with the aftermath in western Washington, and possibly Oregon.

That leaves the local rerserve units on Vancouver Island, the Lower Mainland, and possibly the Southern Interior.  They, with local emergency and law enforcement agencies, are well placed for dealing with the immediate aftermath.  However in my short time in the reserves, not once were we trained in aid to civil power procedures, nor were we ever briefed on what is to happen in such an event.  In a large earthquake, many of the communication systems will be down, so it will be extremely difficult to issue a call-out unless unit members are briefed before hand.  IMHO, procedures and training should be developed for all ranks in these units since they will be first on the scene until the Regular Force arrives.

If we sit back in judgement of the Yanks, and do little to learn their lessons, we do so at our own peril.


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## geo (10 Oct 2005)

Rangerray......
closest reg force are the boys in blue out in Victoria - not Edmonton.
so with Heicopters, Recce group should be on site within the hour.

The authorities were intending to beef up engineer services on the west coast "just in case of the big one" but their 1st idea was to station them right in the middle of the epicentre (figures). They have bought some realestate in Chilliwack (yeah, yeah - the stuff we sold off a few years ago) and the intent was to raise a Reserve Engineer Regiment for the west coast.... a tough go right now.

I can only talk from experience with the Oka Crisis and the Ice Storm... (missed the fires in BC and floods in Wpg) and I must say that all in all, things went remarkedly well - the local authorities have generated plans and they do work....


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## kimmie (10 Oct 2005)

You've also got the famous SAR techs in Comox.


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## geo (10 Oct 2005)

yeah - them too - if they can get their chopprs up in the air on that day (JK)


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## RangerRay (10 Oct 2005)

geo said:
			
		

> Rangerray......
> closest reg force are the boys in blue out in Victoria - not Edmonton.
> so with Heicopters, Recce group should be on site within the hour.



Thanks for the info.    I was referring to reg force army units.  I wasn't sure how much the air force in Comox and navy in Esquimalt could do untill there were army units on the ground, except fly rescue and supply missions to cut-off areas

That would be great if they can establish a reserve engineer regiment in Chilliwack.  IIRC, the only reserve engineer unit in British Columbia is 44 Field Engineer Squadron in Trail, and it would probably take them as long to deploy to the affected area as any unit from Edomonton Garrison.


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