# Can someone answer these questions about the Naval Electronic Technician trades?



## adam22 (23 Mar 2007)

Hi, I have some basic questions about the NET trades, if anyone could help out I would appreciate it greatly. I have a meeting with a recruiter on Monday, but would like to go into the meeting armed with a bit of information.

1. What is the physics and math like at the engineering school in Halifax, and in the job itself? Is it basic math/calculus and physics, or would you say it runs the gamet from grade 10 math and physics, to 4th year university math and physics?

2. Although its a long way away, if I were interested in working on a submarine, would one of the NET trades (acoustic, communications, tactical) be better than the others? 

3. Someone on these forums wrote that the NET trade courses at the school in Halifax have a 50% failure rate. What happens to those people who fail? Can they retake the courses, or are they pushed into doing something else?

Thanks in advance for any answers given.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon (23 Mar 2007)

Adam, we have a few NET types that stop by from time to time so hopefully they will address your questions.


----------



## 284_226 (23 Mar 2007)

adam22 said:
			
		

> Hi, I have some basic questions about the NET trades, if anyone could help out I would appreciate it greatly. I have a meeting with a recruiter on Monday, but would like to go into the meeting armed with a bit of information.
> 
> 1. What is the physics and math like at the engineering school in Halifax, and in the job itself? Is it basic math/calculus and physics, or would you say it runs the gamet from grade 10 math and physics, to 4th year university math and physics?



Bear in mind that there are two separate courses - the Apprentice level academic course, and the Journeyman level academic course.  The Apprentice course starts off at high school level stuff, and works up from there.  See the files attached to this post for the curriculum of these courses.  Most people find the hardest course to be Digital Signal Processing, which involves a fair bit of calculus.



> 2. Although its a long way away, if I were interested in working on a submarine, would one of the NET trades (acoustic, communications, tactical) be better than the others?



I've never done subs, but my impression is that there are slightly more acoustic techs than the other two types, mostly because there's more of that type of equipment.  Something to consider is that the experience that an acoustic tech gathers over the course of a career has the least application in civilian life, followed by tactical techs, and with the most civilian relevance going to the comm techs.



> 3. Someone on these forums wrote that the NET trade courses at the school in Halifax have a 50% failure rate. What happens to those people who fail? Can they retake the courses, or are they pushed into doing something else?



That number sounds very high to me, and I used to be an equipment instructor at the school.  I'd be inclined to believe the rate would be closer to 5-10%.  Those who fail are usually given a COT (compulsory occupation transfer) to another trade which doesn't require as much of an in-depth knowledge of math/physics - usually operator trades.  Those that haven't demonstrated sufficient effort to at least try to pass the courses are released, I would imagine.


----------



## NavyShooter (23 Mar 2007)

adam22 said:
			
		

> Hi, I have some basic questions about the NET trades, if anyone could help out I would appreciate it greatly. I have a meeting with a recruiter on Monday, but would like to go into the meeting armed with a bit of information.
> 
> 1. What is the physics and math like at the engineering school in Halifax, and in the job itself? Is it basic math/calculus and physics, or would you say it runs the gamet from grade 10 math and physics, to 4th year university math and physics?  *I just talked to a couple of my guys who recently completed their 3's course, and another that just did his 5's.  On my 5's course, we had to do some pretty nasty calculus stuff involving Fast Fourier Transformations (nothing fast about 'em) but they no longer do this as part of the course now.  You'll see some basic calculus at the QL5 level, but it will not be overly stressful to you.  On the job, you will rarely need calculus, (if ever).  *
> 
> ...



Hope those help a bit, I'm a Sonar Tech, and I know there's a comm guy that hangs around here now and then (but he's duty tonight on the tanker) and he's been in the school more recently than I have, so he might have more insight for you.

NavyShooter


----------



## NavyShooter (23 Mar 2007)

Oh, yeah, failure rate for my 5's course was 0%.  All passed.  One guy took his release on completion though, voluntary.  

Failure rate above was for my 3's course.  Started with 30, came down to Halifax from Cornwallis.  Graduated 13.  Of those, 14 years later, it seems like there's only about 4 or 5 of us left.

NS


----------



## adam22 (24 Mar 2007)

great information, thanks a lot. just what I was looking for.


----------



## Bert (24 Mar 2007)

Is there cross-training in the NET trades?

In a NET section scenario on ship, would a NET(T) assist a NET(C) with technical duties or
do they only work on equipment they are specifically qualified as an example?


----------



## 284_226 (24 Mar 2007)

Bert said:
			
		

> Is there cross-training in the NET trades?
> 
> In a NET section scenario on ship, would a NET(T) assist a NET(C) with technical duties or
> do they only work on equipment they are specifically qualified as an example?



Assuming nothing's changed since I left the Navy, all NETs stand watches on the 2049, which is a display/control interface for the CCS (Command and Control System).  CCS ties together all sensors, weapons, displays, and processors into one big network.  The on-watch 2049 tech supervises the system, and if anything fails or goes out of tolerances, they'll notify one of the on-watch techs for the appropriate trade.  So, one needs to have at least a basic understanding of how all the systems interface on a block level, and there is cross-training that allows one to be able to do that.

The other time when a tech might not necessarily be working on a system for which they're qualified would be during combat drills.  If the ship is closed up at action stations (as it would be if engaged in battle), and a piece of equipment goes down, a repair team is dispatched - which usually comprises one person who is qualified on the equipment, and another who is an NET from another discipline.  This is because the personnel from each sub-trade would be split up between various parts of the ship, and there probably won't be two qualified people in the same response team.

Other than those situations, the vast majority of the work a NET does will be confined to their own sub-trade.


----------



## CallOfDuty (24 Mar 2007)

Hello there........I am currently an NET student at the school right now, so I can answer any questions you might have.  
     The math level you will need is pre- university math.  You only actually have 12 weeks of a math course.....the rest of the terms you will just use formulas provided and then its just plug and play with the calculator.
    The failure rate is more than 50% now.  We lost a large amount of people, just on our PRE-AC course.( a 6 or 7 week math course to see if you are strong enough mathematically to handle the QL3)
   The thing is......its not even the academics thats the problem ....and I'll try to stay somewhat positive here.......its the school.   If you are prepared to week after week after week after month after month after month in a classroom, learning about electronics...(at a very fast rate)....which in my opinion is a dry subject in itself....then you will be ok.
    The days are long....745----415, with only 5 or 10 minute breaks between classes and an hour for lunch.  Sometimes you will have the same teacher for 3 hours at a time.......uuugh.  It's very much a mental challenge.
   You will be doing 5 subjects worth of studying.....homework....lab experiments....write-ups....etc etc....and it can take a toll on you.  As a CFNES student you are expected to spend a minimum of 2.5-3 hours of homework.  Sometimes it seems as if there is not enough hours in the day to get it all done.  
    You will also have to show up early on monday mornings for an hour of drill in the drill shed( uniform ironed and parade boots highly shone)......Tuesdays you will have to be early for hands fall in( uniform ironed and parade boots highly shone).....Wednesdays you have PT....but before PT you have to be in your room at A block or if you live ashore you have to be in the school for a Chiefs inspection...( uniform ironed and again, shoes highly shone).  
   On a positive note.....if you are a good student and you show them that you are trying....and that you are not a bag of crap, they will give you every tool at their disposal to help you get through the course.  
  
  I guess bottom line is...........you have to really be interested in electronics and you have to want it.  You have to be 100% sure that the Navy is where you want to be.....and you have to be sure you want to be a tech..........and be willing to do all the schooling behind it.
   If you just want to be in the navy, go operator.......the training is signifigantly less.....and to top it off you will get spec pay, just like the NET's.
  Anyway, I've said enough, and like I said...if you have anymore questions...let me know.
C.O.D.


----------



## adam22 (28 Mar 2007)

Hi, thanks again for the info. I do have a university degree, so I am used to being in a classroom. Electronics sound interesting to me, so I hope that will not be a problem for me either, although I have never really had any experience with electronics before. The 50% failure rate is really what sounds quite scary to me, and I would like to get a deeper sense of why that number is so high.

Aside from long days, and the subject material being a bit dry, do you see any other reasons for such a high failure rate? Are the students 18-20 year-olds with only high school experience? Do you think that they are not going into this tech field with enough information about what is going to be expected of them? Or are high failure rates fairly high in all CF trades and disciplines simply because people are new to these careers, and are just testing the waters to try to find something they think they can do for the next 10+ years?

You are getting paid fairly well to be in school learning this material, do you think some people might not be treating it like a job?

You make it clear that there is a lot of homework to be done, but are you serious that 3 hours everyday is needed and not just expected? is there that much work to be done after the school day is over?

On a bit of an unrelated note, what is the school like in terms of formality? Do you do a lot of saluting? Are your teachers CF personel or civilians? How big are the classrooms (how many people)? You mentioned drill, is it comparable to the drill I will learn in Basic, is it just to keep it fresh in my mind?

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out.


----------



## 284_226 (28 Mar 2007)

adam22 said:
			
		

> Hi, thanks again for the info. I do have a university degree, so I am used to being in a classroom.



You have a degree, and you're considering a career as an NE Tech?  That's pretty unusual...depending on the degree you have, the recruiters should be funnelling you towards the DEO entry path as an officer.



> Electronics sound interesting to me, so I hope that will not be a problem for me either, although I have never really had any experience with electronics before. The 50% failure rate is really what sounds quite scary to me, and I would like to get a deeper sense of why that number is so high.
> 
> Aside from long days, and the subject material being a bit dry, do you see any other reasons for such a high failure rate? Are the students 18-20 year-olds with only high school experience? Do you think that they are not going into this tech field with enough information about what is going to be expected of them? Or are high failure rates fairly high in all CF trades and disciplines simply because people are new to these careers, and are just testing the waters to try to find something they think they can do for the next 10+ years?
> 
> ...



I don't really know what's going on these days.  I know in my own personal experience that the course wasn't that difficult, and it hasn't changed much in the 16 years it's been since I did it.  I know my classmates were mostly like me, around 25 at the time, and most of us didn't end up spending 3 hours on homework per night.  Same goes for our Journeyman Conversion course, which I did when I was 30 (again, average age for the class).  Both the old program and the new program train everyone to the same level, which is equivalent to the two-year Electronics Engineering Technician program at Nova Scotia Community College.  Holders of QL5 (both the old career path and the new one) in the NE Tech trades are eligible for certification by TechNova, which is the provincial licencing body for technicians and technologists.

Perhaps it is a factor of younger students now, who aren't taking the classes seriously.  The material hasn't really changed.



> On a bit of an unrelated note, what is the school like in terms of formality? Do you do a lot of saluting? Are your teachers CF personel or civilians? How big are the classrooms (how many people)? You mentioned drill, is it comparable to the drill I will learn in Basic, is it just to keep it fresh in my mind?



Can't really give you a reference on formality - it's less formal than the Basic Training environment, but more formal than a civvie college environment.  You do a lot of saluting while walking around Stadacona, as there are quite a few officers that train there.  Instructors for the academic portion of your classes are almost all civilians, with the odd military tech working in the labs for support.  On the equipment (class of ship) phase of your course, all the instructors are military.  Unless anything has changed, the academic classes are in the 20-30 person range.  Equipment classes max out at 8-12, as classes any larger than that are difficult to run due to a lack of equipment to train/test you on.  The drill classes are just meant to keep your drill skills up for Ceremonial Divisions, which used to happen on a monthly basis but that may have changed.


----------



## CallOfDuty (29 Mar 2007)

When it comes to the high failure rate, I would say it's because of a few things really.  One...they recruit alot of young guys out of high school, and this is their first time away from home.........they live in a new city....they make very good money.....start pissing it all away on beer and women every weekend.....then not only on weekends, but also on wednesday nights, thursday nights, etc, etc.  Not to mention that the young guys can't get enough X-box or playstation too.
  Also, they are recruiting people that just dont have the academic background or even a serious interest in the subject. THey are pumping anyone and everyone that even shows a remote interest in the trade through the system, and pretty much just hoping they pass. ALOTof people I know,  had NET as their third choice on their initial CF application and here they are ....taking a course they never really wanted.
   Again another reason for the failure rate is like I said in a previous post....the school.  The school has a way of making people go a little crazy, and creates some pretty bitter people.   
    THe people who seem to do the best are the ones who have previous post secondary education, or who come from other trades in the military and who have been there and done that and are willing to chill in school for however long it takes.  Also it helps that they've been given large bonuses to be there!

    Cheers
C.O.D.


----------



## adam22 (29 Mar 2007)

thanks again for all the info, I wish the recruiter had been able to tell me a lot of this stuff.

I was asked if I wanted to be an officer, and turned it down. My brother went through basic training, then went through basic officer training. He completed the basic training, but only lasted two weeks in the officer training. He said he hated it for a couple different reasons, all of which turned me off of becoming an officer. To be honest I do not think I have what it takes to be an officer anyway. I prefer the inconspicuose approach to life.

I have read that once I have completed all my basic training and engineering school, and have completed some service, I can apply to become a supervisor. Is it possible to become an officer through time served and competence, or is being an officer something completely different?

On another unrelated note, can someone clear up some questions about pay for me? It says on the Canadian Military website that non-com's get 30k a year for the first 3 years, then it is upped to 50k. Do you start making that as soon as you are in boot camp, or is that only after you have completed your basic training? Also, do you get paid by cheque, or is it electronic?

thanks again.


----------



## 284_226 (29 Mar 2007)

adam22 said:
			
		

> thanks again for all the info, I wish the recruiter had been able to tell me a lot of this stuff.
> 
> I was asked if I wanted to be an officer, and turned it down. My brother went through basic training, then went through basic officer training. He completed the basic training, but only lasted two weeks in the officer training. He said he hated it for a couple different reasons, all of which turned me off of becoming an officer. To be honest I do not think I have what it takes to be an officer anyway. I prefer the inconspicuose approach to life.



Just out of curiosity's sake, what was it that turned you off the officer career path?  (I can't say I blame you - I wasn't really interested in it either, too much administration for me)



> I have read that once I have completed all my basic training and engineering school, and have completed some service, I can apply to become a supervisor. Is it possible to become an officer through time served and competence, or is being an officer something completely different?



You're talking about two different things.  First, you don't "apply" to become a supervisor.  After you're done your apprentice coursing, you'll be off to a ship to solidify the skills you learned at school.  I would expect to spend at least a year on ships before being considered for the Journeyman course.  Once you're completed the Journeyman training, you'll be a Leading Seaman and (more or less) fully qualified on all of the equipment you'll be responsible for.  After you have two years in the rank of Leading Seaman, you'll be eligible (not guaranteed) for promotion to Master Seaman, which is a "working supervisor" role.  That promotion (and every promotion afterwards) is based on merit, and how you rate on annual Performance Evaluation Reports.

Once you're an NCM, the only way to become an Officer is through one of two programs.  The first is UTPNCM, which provides for subsidized training leading to a university degree - which you already have.  The second is CFR, which is Commissioning From the Ranks, and you need to be at least the rank of PO2 to be considered for that (although I think they still consider "outstanding" Master Seamen on occasion).



> On another unrelated note, can someone clear up some questions about pay for me? It says on the Canadian Military website that non-com's get 30k a year for the first 3 years, then it is upped to 50k. Do you start making that as soon as you are in boot camp, or is that only after you have completed your basic training? Also, do you get paid by cheque, or is it electronic?



First, the official pay tables can be found at http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/engraph/download_e.asp?docid=2&sidesection=3.  You start out at Ordinary Seaman (Pte) pay level one pay increment one, right from day one of Basic.  When you've had 12 months service, you move to pay increment two.  When you've gotten 24 months service, you move to pay increment three.  You won't see another raise until you have 48 months service, at which point you're promoted to Leading Seaman (Corporal), pay level 5A pay increment Basic, on the Standard trade group column.  You move upwards through the pay increments, until you graduate your Journeyman course - at which point you move over to the Specialist 1 trade group, at the lowest pay increment level (which is still a raise).

Pay is done electronically to your bank account on the 15th and last business day of every month (bi-monthly).  When on ship, you'll have the opportunity to set your pay up such that you can draw some cash on the ship while you're away (unless that's changed since I was Navy).


----------



## Donaill (31 Mar 2007)

Hi. I am an NET (C). I entered with over 10 years experience in the trade already. You may want to consider the amount of trade time you will get aboard a ship. From my own experience, we do alot of duties in other departments, such as MCR watchkeeper, bos'n mate, and at sea 2049, helm and life buoy sentry. We also tend to get shoved around to do other chores as well. I am not saying that you shouldn't join the navy but keep asking questions. I like my trade, when I get hands on time. ATIS guys have a similar tasking but, from what my TIS friends tell me, they more trade time.


----------



## adam22 (31 Mar 2007)

I just have no interest in being an officer, either leading troops, planning, or doing paperwork. I am not planning on making the military my full length career, I just want some military experience, the ability to say I have served, and the money and benefits are a bonus too. So in my case, all that extra stress and responsibility can wait until I find something I am a bit more passionate about.

Aside from the NET trades, what jobs would you suggest with regards to your comments about not getting enough time working on your actual trade? I am interested in the whole sailing aspect as well as the sonar technician trade, so I do not think that is a big concern for me, but I definetly appreciate the feedback. If you had to estimate, how many hours a day/week do you actually work on your trade?

More random questions:

1. How important is the aptitude test. Is it only used for your initial placement, or is it kept on file for future use? Is there anywhere I can see what scores are needed for certain trades/jobs? I currently work nightshift, so I am going to have to work all night, then go take my aptitude test. Do you think it is a big enough deal that I should take a day off from work for the test?

2. Since my first option is the NET Acoustic trade, my recruiter said after all the paperwork and tests are done, I should expect a job offer very quickly. I am currently stuck at my job though, and will probably have to deffer training for a bit. I would like to know, what the repercussions of deferring basic training might be. How often do they take in new recruits? How long might I have to wait to get another chance to go to basic training? Also, should I worry about getting into the engineering school in Halifax? Do they only take in new recruits once a year, or do they take new students in every semester?

If the choice is burning some bridges at work, or having to sit around for 4 months waiting for a new semester to start, I think I would prefer to be taken off a couple peoples' Christmas card list than waste anymore time sitting around.


----------



## 284_226 (31 Mar 2007)

adam22 said:
			
		

> Aside from the NET trades, what jobs would you suggest with regards to your comments about not getting enough time working on your actual trade? I am interested in the whole sailing aspect as well as the sonar technician trade, so I do not think that is a big concern for me, but I definetly appreciate the feedback. If you had to estimate, how many hours a day/week do you actually work on your trade?



I'll leave your last question for the other fella to tell you about, as he's probably got a better idea what a OS/AB's life is like these days.  I'll just add that all sailors have secondary duties like lookout, helmsman, harbour MCR watchkeeper, humping groceries, and cleaning stations.  Sailor first, tradesman second.  Once you're able to get into a shore posting (other than a course, that is), then you're working nearly entirely in your trade.



> 1. How important is the aptitude test. Is it only used for your initial placement, or is it kept on file for future use? Is there anywhere I can see what scores are needed for certain trades/jobs? I currently work nightshift, so I am going to have to work all night, then go take my aptitude test. Do you think it is a big enough deal that I should take a day off from work for the test?



There are lots of other threads about the aptitude test - I would do a search and browse them.  I wouldn't be overly concerned about it...I don't think the effects of working the previous night would affect the scores too greatly.



> 2. Since my first option is the NET Acoustic trade, my recruiter said after all the paperwork and tests are done, I should expect a job offer very quickly. I am currently stuck at my job though, and will probably have to deffer training for a bit. I would like to know, what the repercussions of deferring basic training might be. How often do they take in new recruits? How long might I have to wait to get another chance to go to basic training? Also, should I worry about getting into the engineering school in Halifax? Do they only take in new recruits once a year, or do they take new students in every semester?



I can't tell you how often basic courses are running, but I can tell you that there are probably 3-4 Apprentice NET courses running per year, so you wouldn't have a terribly long wait after finishing basic.  It's not like college where they shut down for the summer - classes run all through the year at CFNES.


----------



## Donaill (31 Mar 2007)

Actual trade time depends on the department. As a com tech I work significantly less than what my actual experience should allow me. Life along side usually consists of trade/MCR/and NETP packages. There tends to be more emphasis put on the NETP and MCR packages than your actual trades package, in my opinion. If you are getting into the Navy for the whole experience, I would say go for it. If you are just getting into it for a tech trade and then plan of leaving later on then I would say that you should rethink the Navy as a route to take. I am not saying that the NET trade is not good, it can be. How ever if you seek the daily challenge of a technician trade than you may want to think about someplace in the Tech triangle of Kitchener/Waterloo, Ontario. If you plan on staying in for awhile enquire about the Super Tech course in St. John's.

 I can tell you that in a normal day ( I dont include the 1 hour for cleaning stations I may get up to 3 hours if I am lucky. Generally speaking, the Yard comes in to do the real meaty stuff, like checking the integrity of the transmitters, and other checks like gains and VSWR. 

 I, perhaps, am the wrong person to be giving advise. My circumstances are not the norm in the navy. I have not met many others that have entered the NET trade with alot of tech experience. But there is alot about the navy that I like. If you are serious about the experience than I would say go for it. Jump in. Sailing can be fun. The people I have met, and worked with are good people, and helpful. When you do make it to ship, which I think you would by the what you have written, get to know people in every department. If you are out to sea and have some time go help a Bos'n. They will appreciate it and it will be good for your rep. Help anyone when you can. Sadly, you do not always see that.

  You may get frustrated from time to time. The demands on a tech are not like other shops. Techs are required to know as much as they can about other NET departments, the machinery spaces and anything else the ship wants to throw at you. Yet I know few stokers that could reset Shincom, retriever the Cantass, or know what a coupler is.


----------



## 284_226 (31 Mar 2007)

Donaill, I think you'll find life becomes much different after you've finished NETP, the MCR package, and your QL4 OJT.  The Journeymen are the ones that are doing the meat and potatoes electronics work, while the Apprentices are really just there to learn how everything ties together.  I was a comm tech for 16 years, and loved every minute of it.  I'd still be doing it if it weren't for the fact that my time as a QL3 and QL5 equipment instructor was coming to an end, I didn't want to do a stint on a MCDV, and I wanted to get back into a position where I was learning again - hence my remuster to ATIS.  I still firmly believe that NET(C) is probably one of the best trades in the CF, and the skills it teaches you are invaluable when/if you head out to civvie street.  ATIS is up there as well.


----------



## adam22 (4 Apr 2007)

I passed my aptitude test and interview yesterday. I am still waiting for my second medical and the physical which I will have no problem with. I was informed that I can go to civilian school for the diploma I need and the military will pay for it. We have a school in my hometown that is offering the program so there are a lot of benefits to doing it outside the military.

However, I am missing a class, and one of my other classes do not meet the admission standards. I will have to upgrade, and there will not be enough time to upgrade before the year starts, so basically I will have to wait a year to get into the civilian school. I was told that there are quite a few advantages to going to the civilian school, and I would like to know anyone's opinion on what I should do. Here are the pros/cons from my point of view.

Pros:

1. I get to live in my hometown and see my friends/family.
2. I could live with my parents and save $50,000+ if I do well with my money. (The military not only pays for all my school and books, but they also pay me my starting salary while I go to school for the two years).
3. I get a civilian recognized diploma, where as I have to do some kind of challenge if I get my diploma through the navy.
4. I get to go to a civilian school instead of a military one. (not a big deal to me, but still seems to be a bonus)
5. This is a big one. I was told that after I am done civilian school, (I do my basic training stuff during the summers) I get a boost in rank (to able seaman?), as well as a large boost in salary. This is what I am really wondering about, if anyone could clear this up, that would be great.

Cons:

1. I have to wait a whole year to get into the civilian school and there is a small possibility I might not even get accepted.

What I am really interested to know about is the boost in rank. I was told that after two years the boost in rank would give me a salary of $50,000. From what I have read on the Forces.ca website, it will take me a lot longer to get that rank and salary going the traditional way (through the military). If anyone has some advice I would like to hear it, I really do not know what route would be best to take. Thanks.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Apr 2007)

adam22 said:
			
		

> I passed my aptitude test and interview yesterday. I am still waiting for my second medical and the physical which I will have no problem with. I was informed that I can go to civilian school for the diploma I need and the military will pay for it. We have a school in my hometown that is offering the program so there are a lot of benefits to doing it outside the military.



Obviously you have no idea at all of what you are talking about.  Yes, you will go to a civilian school, but it will most likely not be in your home town, unless you live in the town that the CF and school hold a contract.




			
				adam22 said:
			
		

> Pros:
> 
> 1. I get to live in my hometown and see my friends/family.



The CF will house you where they school you.  You do not get to choose where you go to school.



			
				adam22 said:
			
		

> 2. I could live with my parents and save $50,000+ if I do well with my money. (The military not only pays for all my school and books, but they also pay me my starting salary while I go to school for the two years).



The CF will house you and you will have inspections, etc.  You don't get to live with Mom.



			
				adam22 said:
			
		

> 3. I get a civilian recognized diploma, where as I have to do some kind of challenge if I get my diploma through the navy.



I have no idea where you get this idea from.



			
				adam22 said:
			
		

> 4. I get to go to a civilian school instead of a military one. (not a big deal to me, but still seems to be a bonus)



You will be housed by the CF and wear a CF uniform while in the school that they will send you to.  



			
				adam22 said:
			
		

> 5. This is a big one. I was told that after I am done civilian school, (I do my basic training stuff during the summers) I get a boost in rank (to able seaman?), as well as a large boost in salary. This is what I am really wondering about, if anyone could clear this up, that would be great.



You get promotions after completing your complete Course and with "Time In Rank".  Later, you will be promoted if you are merited.



			
				adam22 said:
			
		

> Cons:
> 
> 1. I have to wait a whole year to get into the civilian school and there is a small possibility I might not even get accepted.



Those are the breaks.  In the meantime, you will go on BMQ and SQ.

Now this really makes it sound like you are only after the MONEY:



			
				adam22 said:
			
		

> What I am really interested to know about is the boost in rank. I was told that after two years the boost in rank would give me a salary of $50,000. From what I have read on the Forces.ca website, it will take me a lot longer to get that rank and salary going the traditional way (through the military). If anyone has some advice I would like to hear it, I really do not know what route would be best to take. Thanks.



Doesn't sound promising to me.


----------



## 284_226 (4 Apr 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Obviously you have no idea at all of what you are talking about.  Yes, you will go to a civilian school, but it will most likely not be in your home town, unless you live in the town that the CF and school hold a contract.



You're way out of your lane, George.  There are 13 colleges across Canada approved under the NCM-SEP program for Naval Electronics Technician trades.  In fact, one of the prerequisites for civilian applicants to the NCM-SEP program is unconditional acceptance to one of the approved institutions.



> The CF will house you where they school you.  You do not get to choose where you go to school.
> 
> The CF will house you and you will have inspections, etc.  You don't get to live with Mom.



Only if he's attending the Marine Institute in Newfoundland, which is only one of the 13 approved institutions.  He can live where and with whom he likes at any of the other institutions.

[quote author=adam22]3. I get a civilian recognized diploma, where as I have to do some kind of challenge if I get my diploma through the navy.[/quote]

[quote author=George Wallace]I have no idea where you get this idea from.[/quote]

Because he's correct.  Graduates of NCM-SEP are given diplomas as Electronics Engineering Technicians from the institution.  Those that take QL3/QL5 training at CFNES Halifax have to make application to TechNova for certification as C.Tech, which is normally granted upon presentation of course transcripts and payment of the applicable fee.



> You will be housed by the CF and wear a CF uniform while in the school that they will send you to.



Only at the Marine Institute in St.John's.  If they apply to another institution, they wear civvies for classes, and can live wherever they like.



> You get promotions after completing your complete Course and with "Time In Rank".  Later, you will be promoted if you are merited.



Correct.

[quote author=adam22]
Cons:

1. I have to wait a whole year to get into the civilian school and there is a small possibility I might not even get accepted.[/quote]
[quote author=George Wallace]Those are the breaks.  In the meantime, you will go on BMQ and SQ.[/quote]

He won't go on BMQ until he's unconditionally accepted into one of the approved schools, and that'll be prior to commencement of first year studies.  And sailors don't do SQ   ;D

[quote author=George Wallace]
Now this really makes it sound like you are only after the MONEY:[/quote]
[quote author=adam22]
What I am really interested to know about is the boost in rank. I was told that after two years the boost in rank would give me a salary of $50,000. From what I have read on the Forces.ca website, it will take me a lot longer to get that rank and salary going the traditional way (through the military). If anyone has some advice I would like to hear it, I really do not know what route would be best to take. Thanks.[/quote]
[quote author=George Wallace]
Doesn't sound promising to me.
[/quote]

Why's that?  It's a simple statement of fact, and the CF freely uses it as a selling point for the NCM-SEP program - faster advancement to Leading Seaman than those who follow the Apprentice/Journeyman path at CFNES.  Sounds like an ambitious fella to me.


----------



## George Wallace (4 Apr 2007)

284_226

Thanks very much for some clarification.  If you intend on trying to make a fool of me next time, at least have the decency to read what I have said or accept the fact that you are making a fool of yourself in the process by not doing so.



			
				284_226 said:
			
		

> You're way out of your lane, George.  There are 13 colleges across Canada approved under the NCM-SEP program for Naval Electronics Technician trades.  In fact, one of the prerequisites for civilian applicants to the NCM-SEP program is unconditional acceptance to one of the approved institutions.



Did I not lead off with this statement (one that you were so kind to quote, but apparently to not to read):



> Yes, you will go to a civilian school, but it will most likely not be in your home town, unless you live in the town that the CF and school hold a contract.



As you pointed out, there are 13 schools he could go to, but there are no guarantees that one of those 13 is the one near his Mom's house.   Nor are there any guarantees that the CF would send him to it either.  

I hope that you are correct on all the rest of your 'facts' too.   ;D


----------



## 284_226 (4 Apr 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> 284_226
> 
> Thanks very much for some clarification.  If you intend on trying to make a fool of me next time, at least have the decency to read what I have said or accept the fact that you are making a fool of yourself in the process by not doing so.



I wasn't trying to make you look like a fool, nor did I make myself appear as one.  You stated:



> Yes, you will go to a civilian school, but it will most likely not be in your home town, unless you live in the town that the CF and school hold a contract.



Fairly consistent use of the singular, if you ask me.  Perhaps it could have been better worded like "Yes, you will go to one of a number of civilian schools, but it will most likely not be in your home town, unless you live in one of the towns that the CF and school hold a contract".  My guess (and it was a guess) is that you were under the mistaken impression that the Marine Institute is the only school that has a program for training technicians in the CF.  If my guess was wrong, you have my apologies.



> I hope that you are correct on all the rest of your 'facts' too.   ;D



Aren't I usually?   ;D


----------



## adam22 (4 Apr 2007)

Thanks for the feedback, just to clarify, all the information I posted was given to me by my recruiter. The college in my hometown was recommended by the recruiter. He made it a point to tell me that it is the only school in the province that has the program, so I assume they do have a contract with the CF. 

The only reason I pointed out the boost of rank and salary was because the recruiter made it a point to tell me of that advantage, and it seems like a pretty big one to me. Im not after the money either (I would not have gotten my Uni degree in philosophy if I was   ), I just want to be sure I know all the angles before I join. 

It is still not clear to me about the rank, are you positive I have to have time in rank? What I was told is that as soon as I receive my diploma from the civilian college I get the boost (after having done basic and sailor school as well). Does it sound plausible at all?

I know as well that the programs are a bit different depending on if I were to go to Halifax or a civilian college. The recruiter said I would not be working on specific military equipment as opposed to if I were in Halifax where I would be. Do you see this as a big concern or disadvantage?


----------



## 284_226 (4 Apr 2007)

adam22 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the feedback, just to clarify, all the information I posted was given to me by my recruiter. The college in my hometown was recommended by the recruiter. He made it a point to tell me that it is the only school in the province that has the program, so I assume they do have a contract with the CF.
> 
> The only reason I pointed out the boost of rank and salary was because the recruiter made it a point to tell me of that advantage, and it seems like a pretty big one to me. Im not after the money either (I would not have gotten my Uni degree in philosophy if I was   ), I just want to be sure I know all the angles before I join.



That makes perfect sense.  They've been dangling carrots in the form of cash for a long time now to doctors, dentists, engineers, and skilled trades.  Cash is a pretty lucrative recruiting tool   ;D



> It is still not clear to me about the rank, are you positive I have to have time in rank? What I was told is that as soon as I receive my diploma from the civilian college I get the boost (after having done basic and sailor school as well). Does it sound plausible at all?



It's not just plausible, that's the way it is.  You're enrolled with enough time to complete basic prior to the commencement of the school year in September, then you do year one.  During the summer break between year one and year two, you take NETP.  You do year two at school, and then upon graduation you're promoted to Acting Leading Seaman, in the standard pay group.  Upon completion of equipment training and OJT on ship, you're promoted to Substantive Leading Seaman, and transferred to the Specialist 1 pay group.  The pay rates can be found here - http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/engraph/Apr2006CF_payrates_e.pdf



> I know as well that the programs are a bit different depending on if I were to go to Halifax or a civilian college. The recruiter said I would not be working on specific military equipment as opposed to if I were in Halifax where I would be. Do you see this as a big concern or disadvantage?



The academic training you'll have behind you after your Apprentice and Journeyman courses at CFNES will pretty much be on par with what a civvie tech will have at the technician level.  CFNES tries to tie in their academic training as it is applied to naval equipment whenever possible, but you won't be completely in left field if you attend a civvy college.  The equipment maintenance training you take after academic training is designed to introduce you to the equipment as if you'd never seen it before and have no clue what it does.


----------



## NavyShooter (5 Apr 2007)

284_226 has the essence of the answers, and I cannot add to them substantially, so I won't.  I've not been in the recruiting loop much, so I'm not able to comment there.

What I will say is that you should get IN WRITING the "promises" of early promotion, and the pre-requisites for that from the people you're dealing with.

Stories can change when you leave the recruiting center, and depending on who you're dealing with, they may not have all of their facts 100% square-on.  So, get things in writing.  Read the fine print.  Sign when you're satisfied that you understand what you're getting into, what performance requirements will be placed on you, and what benefits you can expect from the program you're signing up for.

I know years ago when I joined, I was told I'd be an operator for 3-5 years, after doing a short (3 month) operator course.  By the time I finished basic and got to Halifax, that changed into the new apprentice program, and I was on the Pilot course in 1993, which lasted over 16 months for my QL3 level.  So much for going to sea and seeing the world, eh?

Anyhow.  If you have any problems with the information you're getting from your recruiting center, ask the recruiter to talk to the MOC (or is it MOSID now?) advisor on the east or west coast (whichever you're closest to) and the recruiter should be able to put you in touch with a real person, in the trade you're looking at joining, at a senior level, who should KNOW and be able to advise you on what you're getting yourself into.  

So.

Over to you, good luck, and we'll hopefully see you in the fleet!

NavyShooter


----------



## 284_226 (5 Apr 2007)

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> I know years ago when I joined, I was told I'd be an operator for 3-5 years, after doing a short (3 month) operator course.  By the time I finished basic and got to Halifax, that changed into the new apprentice program, and I was on the Pilot course in 1993, which lasted over 16 months for my QL3 level.  So much for going to sea and seeing the world, eh?



Lucky bugger!  At least they told you that you'd be an operator for 3-5 years.  When I joined in '85 as a 284 NET(C), they mentioned nothing of it.  Eight of us showed up in Esquimalt for our TQ3 course, and the lead instructor showed us into the classroom on the first day of course.  On the desks were Morse keys and old manual typewriters.  Puzzled, we asked what we were going to need them for - at which point he welcomed us to the NRadOp 274 QL3 course 8601        Didah didahdit!


----------



## NavyShooter (5 Apr 2007)

As a minor addendum, so far, there's been at lest 3, possibly as many as 5 guys that have joined the Navy as NET's based (at least partly) on some of the discussions I've had with them.  I just found out tuesday that in fact, one of them is a distant cousin of my wife's...about 13 times removed or something like that.

Another of the guys was down in Halifax on a TD while awaiting training up in Kingston.  (They had too many PAT's up there, so they sent him here.)  He worked with/for me for a bit, and started asking questions about the Navy, I took him on a tour of a ship, then sat down and talked with him about my trade for two hours one morning (slow day in the shop).  He came in the next morning with a request for the boss to allow him to re-muster into my trade!  

The boss didn't give me any more PAT's for a while after that 

Interestingly, that guy just got his message to my unit, so he's going to be working for me again, this time as a 5's qualified LS.

NS


----------



## BrianDonohue (8 Feb 2008)

Now, I realize this thread is way old but I thought this could be a good addition. I'm currently enrolled in the NCMSEP program, I go to a civilian college for Electronics Engineering and when I'm finished there are all kinds of little benefits then I'm shipped off to some kind of advanced 3's modified 5's... I think they call it integration something or other. Anyway, from what I've heard I'm glad I'm not at the school in Halifax for this but even civilian the subject matter is brutal.


----------



## Old_navy_062 (12 Feb 2008)

NE-OS said:
			
		

> Now, I realize this thread is way old but I thought this could be a good addition. I'm currently enrolled in the NCMSEP program, I go to a civilian college for Electronics Engineering and when I'm finished there are all kinds of little benefits then I'm shipped off to some kind of advanced 3's modified 5's... I think they call it integration something or other. Anyway, from what I've heard I'm glad I'm not at the school in Halifax for this but even civilian the subject matter is brutal.



Do you have a question regarding your training?  What school are you currently enrolled in?


----------



## BrianDonohue (12 Feb 2008)

Currently at RRC in Winnipeg. I'm just wondering what happens after for the NCMSEP students.


----------



## Mike_pig (21 Feb 2008)

On completion of SEP training you will be posted to CFNES which is in Halifax, there you will completed the NCM SEP NE/NW Tech delta package (academics) on completion of you will be granted QL5 academics and proceed on you QL3 Applications training (equipment phase). When all that is done you will get the NETP (naval environment training program, if lacking)(they should try to get your NETP done during one of your breaks.) Then off to sea to complete QL4 OJTs (On the Job Training) as well as other training prepare you for watches in HMC Ships... I think your joining at an exciting time as our Ships are about to under go modernization as well as the new ship programs coming on line (JSS, tanker replacement, Artic Patrol vessel, to name a few) 
Cheers
Mike


----------



## BrianDonohue (21 Feb 2008)

Thank you very much! I'm pretty excited for what happens after my program here, I really want to end up posted in Halifax and I would LOVE to get on the Arctic boats. The nice pay boost is nice too


----------



## Mike_pig (21 Feb 2008)

How is the program? Are you able to talk to advisors about other concerns relating to the Navy? Has any other students expressed an interest in the SEP program?
Cheers Mike


----------



## BrianDonohue (21 Feb 2008)

I've been telling people they should get into it, there is one that may. There are two of us in my year and then one finishing his last semester. The program is a little tough and I'm on an Air Base so a little landlocked. Unless I want to sail the Red, haha.


----------



## Donaill (28 Mar 2008)

I like the new changes to the entry plans for the NETs. It should, I hope, help alleviate some of the current issues. I hope that more people decide to stay with the NET trade for awhile.  We need more people. I would rather be working with others that enjoy the trade and want to be in it. There are too many that are just in the trade for sake of a trade. I'm not saying that they aren't competant. As a Comm tech, I do not limit myself to just comm gear,if one of the other groups is short I will offer to help. If my PO or Master will allow me to go work with someone else than I have gained something from the experience.  

 I was looking at the Felex plans. Things look promising. More stuff to learn about. Bring it on....
I know that some of the other trades don't really understand us. As a tech I look forward to faults, maintenance (minus the filter cleaning).


----------



## 2fly (11 May 2008)

Donaill said:
			
		

> As a Comm tech, I do not limit myself to just comm gear,if one of the other groups is short I will offer to help. If my PO or Master will allow me to go work with someone else than I have gained something from the experience.
> 
> I was looking at the Felex plans. Things look promising. More stuff to learn about. Bring it on....
> I know that some of the other trades don't really understand us. As a tech I look forward to faults, maintenance (minus the filter cleaning).



As an MS CommTech, I commend you on your attitude about the out sourced jobs.  We need more techs with attitudes like yours.


----------

