# Medical Services on Parade



## Lima_Oscar (13 Aug 2005)

I have two questions regarding medical services on parade:

1. According to Canadian Forces Medical Service: Introduction to its History & Heritage:


> ...non-commissioned CFMS members on parade in a formed unit may carry personal weapons, but they do not fix bayonets


And according to The Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial:


> The Colour escort shall be armed with bayonets fixed...


In other words, when a medical company is on parade all members with the exception of the color guard should not have bayonets fixed.  Is that correct?

2. Once again according to Canadian Forces Medical Service: Introduction to its History & Heritage:


> Medical officers on parade may carry swords, but they do not draw them...


But what about Nursing officers?


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## Michael OLeary (13 Aug 2005)

1.  Field Ambulances do not have Colours, therefore they do not parade Colour Escorts. Revisit the Manual of Drill and Ceremonial for the definition of a Colour Escort (page 8-2-1). It is unlikely that you will find a sergeant of the Medical Corps performing this duty in a unit that does have Colours. 

A medical unit on parade could probably best meet the their Corps limitation by not having anyone fix bayonets, since the non-medical pers would likely be in the minority. Just make sure that if your unit is part of a larger parade that the chain of command and applicable sergeants-major won't be surprised by any differences in your parade performance.

2.  It is likely that conditions for Medical Officers on parade also holds true for Nursing Officers, I am unable to find a mention of this limitation in the Manual of Drill and Ceremonial. Do you have a published reference other than the CFMS History and Heritage?


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## Cansky (13 Aug 2005)

Lima_Oscar said:
			
		

> I have two questions regarding medical services on parade:
> 
> 1. According to Canadian Forces Medical Service: Introduction to its History & Heritage:And according to The Canadian Forces Manual of Drill and Ceremonial:In other words, when a medical company is on parade all members with the exception of the color guard should not have bayonets fixed.   Is that correct?
> 
> 2. Once again according to Canadian Forces Medical Service: Introduction to its History & Heritage:But what about Nursing officers?



As a Med tech for the past 18 years I have never seen this enforced.  I just completed a quarterguard for my units change of command parade and we all fixed bayonets.  Al pers in the guard were medics.  As for other parades I would like to see someone try and tell the RSM of a unit that we don't do this. IMHO its really not a big deal as it is just for a parade.  I wonder if it has something to do with the Geneva Convention (but that is another topic)
Kirsten


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## x-grunt (13 Aug 2005)

Kirsten Luomala said:
			
		

> IMHO its really not a big deal as it is just for a parade.   Kirsten



I do not in any way question your experience. I do wonder about this though. The _practice_ of a units traditions - like piping the side in the Navy, or a Scottish unit marching at 110 paces per minute - helps members feel a sense of shared identity. Staying "unfixed" is part of a medical corps tradition, and therefor important in the grander sense, I would think.


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## mikeninercharlie (13 Aug 2005)

As I was actively involved in the research and writing of the "CFMS Introduction to its Hx and Heritage" I have to jump in here. The CFMS Hx and Heritage book lost many of its nuances during the editting process, the less said about that, the better. I do have an electronic copy of the original draft and it's quite different from final version... Where the document details "medical officers" it should be read as "medical branch officers" which would include nurses, pharmacists, bioscience, physiotherapists, medical admin / medical ops officers.    

Mike, you are absolutely correct, Field Ambulances do not have Colours, therefore they do not parade Colour Escorts. However, the Canadian Forces Medical Service has as its most prized possession "The Queen Mother's Banner" presented to us by our late Colonel in Chief, The Queen Mother in 1985 to recognize 100 years of service by medical practitioners in support of Canadian military activities at home and overseas. Our Banner, unlike that of the Royal Australian Army Medical Corps, is not consecrated despite the best efforts of our former Colonel Commandant but it's afforded a "special" place amongst CF Standards, Guidons and Colours and when paraded it's carried by a Junior officer and escorted by two sergeants. 

The tradition of formed medical units on parade NOT fixing bayonets / drawing swords mirrors that of the RAMC and was a common occurrence when I was a young soldier however, it had been "lost" by the CFMS over the years. 

In the two year period leading up to the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Canadian Army Medical Corps, the direction to HS units in regards to ceremonial traditions had to be restated. Nothing in the guidance I provided to the Regimental Sergeants Major / CWOs   of the Health Services Group excluded medical / dental personnel from parading under arms with bayonets fixed / swords drawn should the requirement present itself, for example in a composite guard / TF parade. Trust me, this situation was a real concern of the CFCWO, CCWO (x4) and DHH CWO and once I had explained the direction in regards to not fixing bayonets/ drawing swords was applicable to ONLY formed medical units on parade, I received their concurrence. 

You'll find nothing in the CF Drill manual in regards to this Medical Branch tradition much like you'll find nothing in the CF Drill manual in regards to the halt practised my Canada's senior infantry regiment...


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## Lima_Oscar (14 Aug 2005)

Thank you very much for your responses.  I am a novice in terms of the history and traditions of the military and I was just trying to seek clarification on those two points.



> Do you have a published reference other than the CFMS History and Heritage?


No, I do not.  Perhaps you can recommend a better reference?



> ...its really not a big deal as it is just for a parade


I disagree. Besides what has been said on the drill manual regarding the origins of drills, parades are a distillation of our historic past.  No a parade does not change our day-to-day care to our patients, however, when we put on our uniform and step on a parade square, we are not only representing the present but also representing the past.  It is an act of remembrance to all those who served before us.  Therefore it is important, in my opinon, that our traditions to be followed to honour our roots and pay our respect to those who have gone before us.

Which brings me to another question: what precisely is the historic orign on bayonets not fixed for the medical services? My understanding of "fixing bayonets" is an infantry practice that dates back to the 19th century warfare where an infantry unit would fix bayonets to fend off a calvary charge and later evolve into an offensive tactic of a bayonet charge.  And surgeons at that time were unarmed.  So when did the practice of a medical unit bearing arms on parade began?


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## Armymedic (14 Aug 2005)

I do not have an actual answer, and I am not sure who could.

But after the British experiences in Afghanistan in the 1870's and Boer War in the begining of the 20th century, the Surgeons may have been given the option to carry weapons. But widespread practice in western armies of medical pers carrying weapon did start until well after WW2.


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## medicineman (15 Aug 2005)

There is a record of a VC won by a Canadian physician (his name escapes me at the moment) serving with the British in India that came about as a direct result of him brandishing his sword and leading a counterattack.  Looking back at uniforms through the years, I have seen prints of RAMC and CAMC orderlies with their webbing on, complete with bayonets, but no firearms.  Odd - for close in defence perhaps?  As a general rule, medical personnel didn't start being armed until during the Second World War, and after awhile at that, mainly due to the experiences in South East Asia against the Japanese Army.  The 1949 update of the Geneva Convention allowed for protected personnel to bear small arms for their personal protection and that of their patients.  Up until the intro of the C-7, medics were armed with pistols and SMG's, not weapons best suited for drill (though SMG, like C-8 drill, did/does in fact exist).  As for not using the bayonets on parade, I have yet to have been on a parade in a medical unit where we did not have bayonets fixed.  I have seen where officers carried pistols in the dress holsters and others where not only were swords carried, but they were unsheathed.  And these were on medical unit parades;  mixed ones I saw swords out (Brigade C of C, etc).  I was involved with a Trooping of the Colour for 2 RCR and lo and behold, us 2 medics in my Guard had the bayonets fixed.

My guess is, not matter what we say here of what our traditions are, unless someone comes out and actually puts pen to paper and ammends the Drill and Ceremonial Manual, we really don't have much to stand on.  As we always say - "If it ain't charted, it didn't happen".

MM


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## Gunner98 (15 Aug 2005)

I think Mike9C made it clear that the traditions regarding swords and bayonets pertain to formed Health Services units on parades only.   This tradition has become more enforced by DGHS et al since 2002.   It is written in the CFMS History and Heritage book. There will always be quiffs at unit level, however, I would not want to be the next senior member of CFHS to disregard this tradition and have the DGHS or Br/Gp CWO in attendance.   One of the unit CO/RSM's responsibilities is to promote and follow traditions.

Surgeon Hebert Taylor Reade is the sword brandishing Victoria Cross winner of whom you speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Taylor_Reade

He was 28 years old, and a Surgeon in the 61st Regiment (later The Gloucestershire Regiment), British Army during the Indian Mutiny when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.

*On 14 September 1857, during the Siege of Delhi, India, while Surgeon Reade was attending the wounded at the end of one of the streets, a party of rebels advanced and having established themselves started firing from the roofs of the houses. The wounded were thus in very great danger but Surgeon Reade drew his sword and, calling on the few soldiers who were near to follow, succeeded in dislodging the rebels. At the assault on Delhi, on 16 September Surgeon Reade was one of the first up at the breach in the magazine and he, with a sergeant, spiked one of the enemy's guns.*
He later achieved the rank of Surgeon General. Grave/memorial at Buried at Locksbrook Cemetery, Bath, Somerset (now Avon), England. Section FJ. Grave 864. Headstone.


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## Lima_Oscar (15 Aug 2005)

Thank you very much for the response.  I am learning something new everyday.

I was seraching the internet for the suggested readings provided at the Annex of Canadian Forces Medical Service: Introduction to its History & Hertiage, but so far I have no luck on locating any of them.  Can anyone suggest a good book regarding the history of CAMC, RCAMC and/or CFMS?

Thank you in advance.

P.S. I was going through some of my nursing history books and none of them mention that Nursing Sisters being armed during any conflict prior to the 20th century.  When did the arming practice of nurses started?


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## mikeninercharlie (15 Aug 2005)

Look for "The Myriad Challenges of Peace: CF Medical Practitioners since the 2nd World War" (ISBN 0-660-19171) by Dr Bill Rawlings of DHH. This official hex was published in 2004, initially it was to be officially launched during Op Celebration activities in Borden last June however, I understand the author took ill and was unable to participate. I do know that this book was widely distributed to every unit thoughout the HS Group and each candidate attending initial officer classification training and each Sgt/P2 attending the 6A course at CFMSS were to be given a copy.

"if it ain't charted, it didn't happen" Medicineman should you ever be tasked to parade with 2 RCR, just tell the RSM that you'll only carry out the drill movements as detailed in CFP 201 and not any RCR interpretation of such, he'll appreciate you could never pass a fault...  >


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## Armymedic (15 Aug 2005)

Lima_Oscar said:
			
		

> P.S. I was going through some of my nursing history books and none of them mention that Nursing Sisters being armed during any conflict prior to the 20th century.   When did the arming practice of nurses started?



I am not sure of that either, but after seeing some of the Nursing officers in the CF use thier weapons, I suggest we leave them unarmed... >


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## Lima_Oscar (15 Aug 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> I am not sure of that either, but after seeing some of the Nursing officers in the CF use thier weapons, I suggest we leave them unarmed... >



ROFL!   ;D

And OUCH!


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## Lima_Oscar (15 Aug 2005)

mikeninercharlie said:
			
		

> Look for "The Myriad Challenges of Peace: CF Medical Practitioners since the 2nd World War" (ISBN 0-660-19171) by Dr Bill Rawlings of DHH. This official hex was published in 2004



No luck finding that at any bookstores, but I DID find 1 copy at the U of T library. THANK YOU very much for the reference.


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## medicineman (16 Aug 2005)

"if it ain't charted, it didn't happen" Medicineman should you ever be tasked to parade with 2 RCR, just tell the RSM that you'll only carry out the drill movements as detailed in CFP 201 and not any RCR interpretation of such, he'll appreciate you could never pass a fault...   >
[/quote]

Alas, I'm no longer in the Family, but I'll keep it in mind.

I'm not sure when nurses started getting armed - likely later on in the 60's or 70' is my guess.  I've seen stuff from the late 70's/early 80's from the Brits where they were doing field training for QARNC's and they were learning the in's and out's of the SMG.  In all likelihood, it was when women started to filter into the field units.

MM


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## Brad Sallows (16 Aug 2005)

Every tradition has to be started sometime, somewhere, by somebody.  Tomorrow, in your own unit, by you, is as good as any.


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## PRL ER NO (21 Aug 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> I am not sure of that either, but after seeing some of the Nursing officers in the CF use thier weapons, I suggest we leave them unarmed... >



Some of the CF's Nursing Officers are ex-combat arms and can out shot some of the medics thay are working with.  FYI


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## Armymedic (22 Aug 2005)

PRL ER NO said:
			
		

> Some of the CF's Nursing Officers are ex-combat arms and can out shot some of the medics thay are working with.   FYI



I have met Doctors, HCAs, a couple Dentists, and even one Pharamacist who could shoot really well...

With all the NO's in the CF, I am sure one of them can shoot well...;D

no, I can't recall seeing any.

(you know I am joking, right?)


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## RatCatcher (7 Sep 2005)

As a sidebar, in the recent change of command for 5ie Amb C in Valcartier, we wore bayonets but did not fix them, and the officers carried swords, but did not draw them....

And to think of it...after seeing some of the drill I am glad we didn't. Im sure someone would lose an ear....


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## Gunner98 (7 Sep 2005)

Nurse Stevie P is an excellent shot from his Infantry days and was our RSO for several years at Fd Hosp.   That makes one I can think of.   1 Cdn Fd Hosp Chg of Comd parade was conducted similarly to 5's.   Escorting the Cdn flag and Queen Mother's Banner with bayonets  and swords sheathed is further evidence of the seriousness of the direction from the top.


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## Fraser.g (7 Sep 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> I am not sure of that either, but after seeing some of the Nursing officers in the CF use their weapons, I suggest we leave them unarmed... >



Now now Armymedic,

I was a Combat Engineer for 10 years and infantry for 6 years before that. 
I can still out shoot many of the medics working under me and quite a few infantry as well.  

GF


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## medicineman (7 Sep 2005)

Strange - our CoC parade was directed from 4 Group to have a Quarters Guard with fixed bayonets.

MM


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