# NLD Troops in AFG Suspended for Collectively Refusing Orders



## The Bread Guy (26 Sep 2008)

.pdf of articles also attached because Radio Netherlands links tend to disappear quickly...

*Dutch soldiers in Afghanistan suspended*
Radio Netherlands, 26 Sept 08
Article link


> In Afghanistan, a Dutch Task Force Uruzgan platoon has been temporarily suspended from active service for collectively refusing to carry out an order. The 24 scouts refused to provide support and defence to a less-well trained and experienced unit. They wanted their commander to reverse the roles, but he refused and suspended the unit.  The incident may lead to a criminal investigation. In this case the scouts will be sent back to the Netherlands. According to defence experts this is the first time an entire Dutch platoon has been suspended from active service.



And in other "they sure do things differently in the Dutch Army" news...

*Dutch officers say shortages endanger soldiers*
Radio Netherlands, 26 Sept 08
Article link


> The commanders of two Dutch platoons in the Afghan province of Uruzgan have written to the union for defence personnel VBM/NOV claiming that Dutch lives are at risk due to a shortage of equipment, such as armoured vehicles and ambulances. Existing equipment is poorly maintained.  It is not the first time that members of the Dutch Task Force in Uruzgan have complained about a lack of equipment. According to VBM/NOV chairman Jean Debie measures are urgently needed to tackle the problem.  Defence Minister Eimert van Middelkoop says although he thinks it is inappropriate that the commanders should have sought publicity in this way, he will investigate their complaints.


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## geo (26 Sep 2008)

Interesting find Tony....

Weird way to run an Army if you ask me ??? WTF 

Troops that refuse to provide support and defence to a less-well trained and experienced unit. 
They wanted their commander to reverse the roles....  ???

To me, that soulds like, the Scouts figured that they were better trained for the job and asked to take the lead have the newbies provide support & defence  ???

IF that is the case... it would sound very reasonnable  BUT, the translation could be wrong & the meaning could be something completely different


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## George Wallace (26 Sep 2008)

Brings into the limelight what "Unions" can do in an Country's Military.  It gives the Rank and File quite a bit of power in a way.  Although it is not an ideal setting in a Theatre of Operations, such as Afghanistan, for a military force to go on strike; they are probably acting in a way of self preservation by calling their Government to task on the poor equipment they are expected to operate with in a War Zone.

Perhaps this is a good thing for them, but I really don't see it as being an overall good thing for any military to be Unionized.  I could also see a problem in that if the "Military Union" did not get what they wanted, would they resort to contemplating a Coup?  Some interesting scenarios can be drawn from this.


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## geo (26 Sep 2008)

> In a response to the investigation about the five Jan. 12 friendly fire casualties in southern Afghanistan, the largest military union in the Netherlands today calls for increased defense spending and more battalion- and battlegroup-level live training opportunities.
> 
> According to the VBM/NOV union (which represents 30,000 military personnel, more than 50% of the Dutch armed forces), the organization is "shocked and upset" by the results of the investigation, and by the admission of defense minister Eimert van Middelkoop that the troops involved "have not followed current tactical procedures."
> 
> ...



If the Ducth gov't is trying to do things "on the cheap" and troops are getting hurt because of the reduced spending / training, then it is possibly a bit of self preservation that has motivated the troops to act


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## GAP (26 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> If the Ducth gov't is trying to do things "on the cheap" and troops are getting hurt because of the reduced spending / training, then it is possibly a bit of self preservation that has motivated the troops to act



They put a grievance in with their Union.....


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## geo (26 Sep 2008)

The article I posted, dated Feb 08 deals with an incident in Jan 08.
From what I gather, the union did file a grievance

In the original post made by Tony, the officer wanted group 1 (old) to provide support & defence to group 2 (new) in an operation...
the troops wanted to reverse the roles - group 2 (new) to provide support & defence to group 1 (old) in same said operation.

They didn't strike - they didn't refuse to fight - their officer decided to suspend them... and not let them fight


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## GAP (26 Sep 2008)

So a "walkout"......


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## geo (26 Sep 2008)

their officer decided to suspend them..

Somethink akin to a LOCK OUT if I read this one right


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## GAP (26 Sep 2008)

Can you imagine the mischief that could go on with a CF Union.....maybe Buzz baby would be interested......  ;D


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## The Bread Guy (26 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> The translation could be wrong & the meaning could be something completely different



I don't know Duitch, but I do know the Radio Netherlands English translations (unlike the Taliban translations into English) are good - many of the newsreaders on the English side don't even have an accent, suggesting their first language is English.

Here's the union's statement in GoogleEnglish  (Original in Dutch)


> The shortage of stock in Uruzgan, the Dutch soldiers' lives at stake. There is a great shortage of armored vehicles (Patria and Bush Master). Weapons systems are also greatly reduced by poor maintenance employable.  Reason: there are no spare parts.  According to the Trade Union for Defense Personnel MBM | NOV need extra money immediately to Defense for the purchase of parts and equipment.  The safety of our Dutch troops that make urgently needed.
> 
> According to commanders in the Battle Group is particularly the Patria-deployable fighting vehicles reduced by lack of replacement parts. During a recent relocation of Tarin Kowt to Chora rode therefore no vehicles go for the transport of any injuries (no ambulance available?). This offers little protection to the Patria in bomb attacks. There are by the lack of proper safety belts already injured.
> 
> Also, there are too few Bush Master vehicles for the Battle Group. The Bush Master offers the best protection to occupants of the bombings. Each platoon (about 30 man) can use 1 Bush Master Vehicle (up to 10 passengers). Also because of lack of weapons parts and ammunition limited use.  The Trade Union for Defense Personnel MBM | NOV Defense believes that there must immediately do everything to improve the situation. There is already warned that the lives of Dutch soldiers are jeopardized by lack of equipment.  There is an emergency and by the continuing cuts in Defense deliberately caused by the Dutch government. That is unacceptable to our members. You can not with impunity cut back on an organization that for years an intensive security operation to be carried out.




In a different incident from a year ago, I found an interesting quote from a union rep on the death of a soldier under fire:


> .... Jan Kleian, chairman of the military trade union VBM/NOV, told ANP news service that the death of Hoogland might be easier for his colleagues to cope with than previous deaths because he was killed in active fighting rather than through the ‘cowardly’ action of a land mine ....


later in the same article, from what appears to be ANOTHER Dutch military union:


> .... Marlies Verhoef, spokeswoman for the AFMP soldiers’ union said the death was ‘extremely sad’ but must be seen as separate from the question of whether Dutch troops should remain in Afghanistan. ‘We are against the extension of the mission but for other reasons,’ she told ANP ....



Very interesting, and very different, having a union, indeed.


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## YYC Retired (26 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Interesting find Tony....
> 
> Weird way to run an Army if you ask me ??? WTF
> 
> ...



I tend to agree on this...... If the more experienced guys were trying to take the task then kudos to them..... Let the new guys participate and learn as well.....


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## Eggy (26 Sep 2008)

As far as I can tell no orders were refused. There were/are tensions in the platoon over the fact that they are constantly used for protection tasks instead of reconnaissance.

The fact that the Dutch armed forces have unions (which are nowhere near the same as your ordinary unions) is completely irrelevant in this matter.


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## Trooper Hale (26 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> their officer decided to suspend them..
> 
> Somethink akin to a LOCK OUT if I read this one right


We'd call it a "Jack Up" over here when the digger's take charge and refuse orders but still still do their jobs. Facinating to read about a military union, the boy's always joke about being "Good union blokes" but I'd never heard of an army actually doing it.
Any one know if they use their power for political means or whether its just soldiers welfare?


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## George Wallace (26 Sep 2008)

Just did a Google of "Dutch military union" and was surprised at some of the stuff I found.


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## EW (26 Sep 2008)

Hales! said:
			
		

> We'd call it a "Jack Up" over here when the digger's take charge and refuse orders but still still do their jobs. Fascinating to read about a military union, the boy's always joke about being "Good union blokes" but I'd never heard of an army actually doing it.
> Any one know if they use their power for political means or whether its just soldiers welfare?



The Dutch military union goes back decades, at least the end of WWII, when they used to have conscription.  It was decided that if they were going to force young men into the Army then there should be some sort of organization that would look after their rights, as conscripts.  The Dutch only ended active conscription in '95, and by that time I guess the union had become such a large part of the system, that it wasn't going to fade away.


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## The Bread Guy (26 Sep 2008)

Eggy said:
			
		

> The fact that the Dutch armed forces have unions (which are nowhere near the same as your ordinary unions) is completely irrelevant in this matter.



I'd have to disagree - without casting aspersions on the unions (I know very little about how they work), the fact that they seem to be acting like shop stewards as another level of looking after the collective interests of soldiers makes it VERY different than other Western militaries.  What would happen to any rank-and-file soldiers in, say, the Canadian, Brit or US military speaking to the media saying, "I speak for the troops, and we say the equipment sucks"?  Sgts Major and Commanders going into overdrive, to say the least.



			
				Hales! said:
			
		

> Any one know if they use their power for political means or whether its just soldiers welfare?



Based on only one quote from CLIPINT shown above where a "union rep" says they oppose extension of the Dutch mission in AFG, I'd say at least a bit.


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## The Bread Guy (27 Sep 2008)

More on the complaint to the union regarding equipment woes, from the NLD government side - .pdf of both articles attached in case links don't work any more - shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the _Copyright Act._

*Dutch soldiers in Afghanistan "well equipped"*
Radio Netherlands, 26 Sept 08
Article link


> Dutch Deputy Defence Minister Jack de Vries denies that Dutch troops in the Afghan province of Uruzgan are at risk as a result of inadequate equipment. The allegations had been made in an open letter by the commanders of two Dutch platoons in Uruzgan warning of a shortage of equipment and poor maintenance. The deputy minister says that while patrols and operations always pose a risk, soldiers are never deployed without the right equipment. He does acknowledge that problems exist but stresses that buying new equipment and spare parts takes time.



More from Xinhua....


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## tomahawk6 (1 Oct 2008)

I was chatting with someone last night[US] who is in the Dutch AO and made the comment that they cant find the taliban but that they[the taliban] seem to like attacking the Dutch. This then sparked a rather interesting discussion of aggressiveness vs being passive.One old hand made what I think is a classic line.
"If you look like food,you will be eaten".


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## The Bread Guy (9 Oct 2008)

According to the Google translation of this, it appears a Dutch investigation shows no criminal offenses were found to be committed by the troops in question:


> ....  Meanwhile, this investigation completed and reviewed by the Public Ministry.  Defense takes note of the fact that the Public Ministry considers that there is no way of criminal offenses.  However, it has become clear that tensions have arisen as a result of misunderstandings and communication problems within the unit  ....



More in machine-translated English here


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## geo (10 Oct 2008)

Communication problem.... without the use of radios - in an operational theatre !!!!

Not a good thing.


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## Eggy (15 Oct 2008)

The reconnaissance platoon has been used for everything but reconnaissance, convoy escort, guarding the PRT etc etc. When they were assigned another one of those ops the platoon CO and a NCO objected, differences of opinion are not that rare and I don't know what caused this one to get out of hand. Both have been relieved and will be sent back to the Netherlands, a few others will face disciplinary action but will remain active in Uruzgan.


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