# Last orders for troops arriving for daily duty with hangovers



## COBRA-6 (8 Sep 2009)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6825321.ece



> After a Nato airstrike killed as many as 125 people last week, General Stanley McChrystal was keen to get the situation under control — fast.
> 
> When he tried to contact his underlings to find out what had happened, however, he found, to his fury, that many of them were either drunk or too hungover to respond.
> 
> ...



This is nothing new to anyone who has served in Kabul...


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## OldSolduer (8 Sep 2009)

WTF?? You know this kind of crap makes me angry. We have troops out in the wilds, and are strictly forbidden access to alcohol, yet HQ Weenies can imbibe with impunity. Typical...and then the upper echelon wonders why they are disliked and disrespected.

While the troops are out risking their lives, you are partying it up???? Give me a freakin break.


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## daftandbarmy (8 Sep 2009)

They should also give the HQ wallahs patrol traces to complete in the local area, but hey, that's just me.


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## CountDC (9 Sep 2009)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> They should also give the HQ wallahs patrol traces to complete in the local area, but hey, that's just me.



Great idea but who do you think will actually be doing them?


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## Larkvall (9 Sep 2009)

Why are Fridays considered ‘low-ops’ day?

Isn't this far too predictable?


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## Dissident (9 Sep 2009)

Maybe because it is the Afghan week end and the insurgents tend to do less on that day? (speculation)


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## vonGarvin (9 Sep 2009)

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> They should also give the HQ wallahs patrol traces to complete in the local area, but hey, that's just me.


Sure, no worries.  So long as the front line martyrs are given OPP cycles to complete and work at it for 15 hour days, end on end.


[/drama queen mode]
I realise that perception is everything.  The perception that the HQ staff are dilly-dallying about as the PBI slog it out day in and day out probably goes back to the Roman times, if not earlier.  (I can see Og the cave man standing shift at the waterhole, just down the way from the Monolith, as Urgh and Blagh are back in the cave, feasting on monkey brains).

It comes down to rules-enforcement.  If there is a limit, then enforce it.  If there is scope to take one day a week off, then do so.  Working 200 days straight without a break is more than likely unhealthy.  Now, I wouldn't give the whole kit and kaboodle the same day off, naturally, I would take say 1/7th of the staff and given them x day off, another 1/7th the next, and so forth.  If possible, naturally.


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## basrah (9 Sep 2009)

OldSoldier said:
			
		

> WTF?? You know this kind of crap makes me angry. We have troops out in the wilds, and are strictly forbidden access to alcohol, yet HQ Weenies can imbibe with impunity. Typical...and then the upper echelon wonders why they are disliked and disrespected.
> 
> While the troops are out risking their lives, you are partying it up???? Give me a freakin break.



On my tour, and Im sure it is still happening, those soldiers posted on KAF are allowed to drink once a month. It may only be two beers, but that is two more a month than those out at the PSS get. 

I still remember coming in to KAF on Canada day, just in time for the two beer hand out. There were 'soldiers' walking around wearing giant novelty cat in the hat style hats with decorations all over them, wearing Canada hockey jersys, and playing their guitars. The fact that the even had room in their UAB to pack this made me shake my head, let alone the fact that they planned ahead for this event. I remember having to ditch certain things from my UAB because it wasnt 100% essential, and it sure as hell wasnt a giant fluffy hat.


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## Jarnhamar (9 Sep 2009)

Larkvall said:
			
		

> Why are Fridays considered ‘low-ops’ day?
> 
> Isn't this far too predictable?



Probably about as predictable as having a ramp ceremoney at 1600hrs the very next day after a death.  :


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## dapaterson (9 Sep 2009)

basrah said:
			
		

> I remember having to ditch certain things from my UAB because it wasnt 100% essential, and it sure as hell wasnt a giant fluffy hat.



Well, of course not.  No one would ditch the giant fluffy hat.


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## aesop081 (9 Sep 2009)

basrah said:
			
		

> On my tour, and Im sure it is still happening, those soldiers posted on KAF are allowed to drink once a month. It may only be two beers, but that is two more a month than those out at the PSS get.
> 
> I still remember coming in to KAF on Canada day, just in time for the two beer hand out. There were 'soldiers' walking around wearing giant novelty cat in the hat style hats with decorations all over them, wearing Canada hockey jersys, and playing their guitars. The fact that the even had room in their UAB to pack this made me shake my head, let alone the fact that they planned ahead for this event. I remember having to ditch certain things from my UAB because it wasnt 100% essential, and it sure as hell wasnt a giant fluffy hat.



You can always remuster if life is that much better on the other side of the fence. Not to start yet another "Us vs Them" argument but they picked their trade and so did you.


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## Gunner98 (9 Sep 2009)

TF Comds may authorize monthly beer calls at KAF, however, during my tour Canadians in RC(S) HQ were only allowed two beer on Canada Day and were dry the remainder of the time.

As for fluffy hats - maybe the wearers actually received them in the 'free mail' through Canada Post, ergo they actually had friends supporting them from back home, 

or they left their winter whites and mukluks at home and packed something into their new pelican boxes they might actually wear while living inside the wire.


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## PMedMoe (9 Sep 2009)

basrah said:
			
		

> There were 'soldiers' walking around wearing giant novelty cat in the hat style hats with decorations all over them, wearing Canada hockey jersys, and playing their guitars. The fact that the even had room in their UAB to pack this made me shake my head, let alone the fact that they planned ahead for this event. I remember having to ditch certain things from my UAB because it wasnt 100% essential, and it sure as hell wasnt a giant fluffy hat.



Maybe they bought it in KAF or Mirage.  Maybe it was sent to them.

I agree with CDN Aviator, we don't need another "Us vs. Them" thread.


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## SARgirl (9 Sep 2009)

Is this not a case of the minority making the whole look bad or is it the other way around by where the majority takes part and makes the minority look bad along with them???  Does anyone know which is the case?  Maybe it doesn't matter... majority or minority, it's still happening and should be rectified. 

I agree, the rules do need to be enforced.  It undermines the authority and respect of those in charge when they don't ensure the rules are followed... of course, this starts with the enforcers having the self discipline and self control to set the example.

Even though Canadian troops were not mentioned in this story (thank goodness), stories like this certainly don't help the world image of troops as a whole.

I wonder, in this story, were Canadian troops lucky enough to simply be not mentioned in the list or do our Canadian troops, generally speaking, tend to set and follow a higher standard and so perhaps that is why they were not mentioned?

I'm not sure how this will go over, but here it goes...  I do believe that using the excuse that one is away on tour to drink or one is a solider is exactly that, an excuse.  I know several responsible soldiers who choose to not become intoxicated and most of those I know don't drink at all except perhaps when they are away on personal leave (holidays or X days off) and even then, just one or two over the period of time at hand.  

I'm unclear why so many soldiers choose to drink, we all have our crosses to bare, every one of us, but I was thinking that there might be some misconception about how many soldiers drink to excess because of how the information is presented by the media.  Does anyone know if the % of soldiers who choose to drink is more or less than that of the civvie population?  

Perhaps I'm over analyzing, but... do soldiers who drink to excess not think about how they devalue themselves, their country and military, their families and how it even increases the risks to their life and lives of those around them when they drink (given what they do for a living)?  Drinking is a conscience decision, I just wonder what goes through their head leading up to such things.  Soldiers are well trained and generally tend to be quite intelligent; it shouldn't be a stretch of logic for a solider, who I assume wants to return home alive and well, would choose to disregard such logic (espeically with regards to increased risks to their life and lives of those around them when drinking to excess)... it just doesn't make sense.  Mind you, the same thing could be said about anyone who chooses to drink too much; be it a solider or civvie, but then soldiers are held to a higher standard than that of a civvie and soldiers also have to be mentally equipped to face, _without notice_, those dangers which a civvie would, usually speaking, not be tending to.



			
				Simian Turner said:
			
		

> As for fluffy hats - maybe the wearers actually received them in the 'free mail' through Canada Post, ergo they actually had friends supporting them from back home,


 I was thinking the same thing; that they very likely had some fun items sent to them, to use during down times, from those back home.  



			
				PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I agree with CDN Aviator, we don't need another "Us vs. Them" thread.


 +1


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## OldSolduer (9 Sep 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Maybe they bought it in KAF or Mirage.  Maybe it was sent to them.
> 
> I agree with CDN Aviator, we don't need another "Us vs. Them" thread.


I quite agree, BUT...

In 93 in Croatia, the CCSG lived in a far better camp, with a three tier deck for the JRC, that was built with materiels that were supposed to be issued to the line troops.
In 97 in Bosnia, every NSE pers in VK had fleece  early in the tour, whereas 2VP  waited until late in the tour for theirs. Same with desert boots. And the VK pers had A/C in each ISO trailer. Not so down at Coralici, Bihac or Zgon.

Where are the priorities? Do you blame the Battle Group guys for being a bit PO'd? 

As for walking around with fluffy hats, as long as they were in civvies, who cares.


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## aesop081 (9 Sep 2009)

OldSoldier said:
			
		

> In 93 in Croatia.......



Yup and the CANLOGBAT folks in Split also had a walking out policy....yadi yadi yada. For every story where the field guys have some sort of legitimate gripe ( i was in croatia in 94) there is some combat arms guy who bitches that he has to sleep in a trench and the AF guys in the next country is in a hotel, etc.....

You are in a dusty hole in the ground with only what you can carry in your ruck and people shoot at you.......WTF are people expecting ? last time i checked, every infantryman was a volunteer.......

I've been around long enough that there is non-sense and abuses going on and those things should be adressed. Saying "well they had fuzzy hats and more space for stuff", shake your head a bit, i doubt you wouldnt do the same if you were them.

CFAO 11-12..........


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## Jammer (9 Sep 2009)

...and on Roto 0 in Kabul EVERYONE in the TF was able to get on the piss in the evenings...no limits. The same with every frickin' UN tour. So before anyone gets on the pulpit and preaches, take a look inside yourselves.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Sep 2009)

I was never so happy in my life to get home from a tour as I was for HARMONY 0.  My liver would have self destructed or mutinied if it was any longer.  Our bar in Vukovar was famed throughout the land for our parties.


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## Otts (9 Sep 2009)

Well bottom line is that anyone in the CF, not only in those in Afghanistan need to be responsible. To the people who had the privilege of drinking, you would think they would know better than to abuse it. Knowing that, taking away that privilege is in my opinion maybe a little extreme seeing as how it is an excellent way to calm oneself down, at the end of the day. Keeping in mind though that with or without the privilege, in the end you wouldn't go overseas just to party, so it shouldn't matter too much.

As for the big fuzzy hats, that just sounds like a fun thing that could simply be for morale, so whats the harm in that? As long as its understood that anyone with one should be prepared to haul it around...still not a big deal IMO.


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## OldSolduer (10 Sep 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Yup and the CANLOGBAT folks in Split also had a walking out policy....yadi yadi yada. For every story where the field guys have some sort of legitimate gripe ( i was in croatia in 94) there is some combat arms guy who bitches that he has to sleep in a trench and the AF guys in the next country is in a hotel, etc.....
> 
> You are in a dusty hole in the ground with only what you can carry in your ruck and people shoot at you.......WTF are people expecting ? last time i checked, every infantryman was a volunteer.......
> 
> ...



Look, I agreed we didnt' need an Us Vs Them forum. I am merely pointing out the disrepancy between the supportiing element and the supported. And FYI, we don't all live in holes in the ground.


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## daftandbarmy (11 Sep 2009)

Otts said:
			
		

> As for the big fuzzy hats, that just sounds like a fun thing that could simply be for morale, so whats the harm in that? As long as its understood that anyone with one should be prepared to haul it around...still not a big deal IMO.


I was always impressed at the ability of the Royal Marines to produce, at no notice, several complete sets of fishnets etc for the inevitable Sod's Opera. It didn't seem to harm their battle effectiveness, although I'm sure it would have if they had to do a right flanking in those size 12 high heels (where DO you find stilettos that Large LCpl? In me mum's closet, sir!).


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## Spr.Earl (11 Sep 2009)

OldSoldier said:
			
		

> I quite agree, BUT...
> 
> 
> In 97 in Bosnia, every NSE pers in VK had fleece  early in the tour, whereas 2VP  waited until late in the tour for theirs. Same with desert boots. And the VK pers had A/C in each ISO trailer. Not so down at Coralici, Bihac or Zgon.
> ...



Are you talking about ROTO 0 where we went from IFOR to SFOR?
If so I was on that tour living down in Corolici with 1 CER and we noticed how well kitted out every one was in V.K. and it did piss us and the Pat's off.
If I remember right the Battle Group Commander got wind of it and those in V.K. who had Gucci kit had to turn it in and it was re issued to the field troop's.

 As for fluffy hat's I was in KAF this last Canada Day and the welfare folk's were handing out fluffy hat's and all sort's of goodies and at the same time we had a group of Newfies with us and on Canada Day all were wearing big fluffy hat's,all sent from home in welfare parcel's.
I always make room for something that will lighten the mood for all like my water balloon launcher. 

 Getting back on topic,all member's of the C.F. are entitled to 2 beer's per month when over seas,it's up to the Unit Commander to indent for the beer ration.

 The trouble to day is many don't know how to drink responsibly,they just drink to get pissed and can't perform the next day where as I hate to say it,in the old day's we pissed it up and turned too and did our respective job's and if you didn't you got burned,like the old saying goes " You want to hoot with the owl's,you had better be ready to soar with the eagle's and don't complain."


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## OldSolduer (11 Sep 2009)

Thank you Spr Earl!!


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## Kat Stevens (11 Sep 2009)

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> Are you talking about ROTO 0 where we went from IFOR to SFOR?
> If so I was on that tour living down in Corolici with 1 CER and we noticed how well kitted out every one was in V.K. and it did piss us and the Pat's off.
> If I remember right the Battle Group Commander got wind of it and those in V.K. who had Gucci kit had to turn it in and it was re issued to the field troop's.
> 
> ...



I was there too, and I got issued ALL my goretex gear in theatre... in July. Sunny and +35.  Every.  Day.  Stuff came in handy, thank god(s) I didn't have it when we got there with 2 feet of snow on my AEV.  Wouldn't have wanted to cheat myself.


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## PMedMoe (11 Sep 2009)

When I was in Bosnia (Glamoc) we were scrounging for furniture in the garbage pile.   :-[


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## dapaterson (11 Sep 2009)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> When I was in Bosnia (Glamoc) we were scrounging for furniture in the garbage pile.   :-[



Hence why we need a degreed officer corps - so we have people in uniform who already have that experience and can draw on it as needed.  That and the binge drinking.


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## vonGarvin (11 Sep 2009)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Hence why we need a degreed officer corps - so we have people in uniform who already have that experience and can draw on it as needed.  That and the *binge drinking*.


:rofl:
Actually, that's why we need some who went to civvy U (*cough* such as I, for example)
;D


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## daftandbarmy (12 Sep 2009)

Midnight Rambler said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> Actually, that's why we need some who went to civvy U (*cough* such as I, for example)
> ;D



Or even people who never finished university who still were commissioned and managed not to kill anyone (especially friendlies) after being crashed out on QRF even though they thought that they were stuck behind the officer's mess bar all night and had accepted several pints as a 'consolation prize' (but still had one up the spout 'just in case')


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