# "Conduct After Capture" Training Material "Purged"



## The Bread Guy (11 Jul 2010)

This from the Canadian Press:


> The military has launched a purge of its classroom materials after several offensive cartoons, including some featuring women in degrading sexual situations, were used in courses for soldiers headed to Afghanistan.
> 
> The drawings were part of presentations provided to instructors at the Canadian Defence Academy in Kingston, Ont.
> 
> ...


----------



## GK .Dundas (11 Jul 2010)

You have got to me kidding me???????????????????????  what  lame brained moron ............. I can't go on some people are  too stupid to be allowed  to reproduce, never mind be allowed to setup training programs . Oh and someone has to have friendly 90 decibel chat  with whoever had oversight  of this project.
 Thankfully it didn't make past the draft stage however  it shouldn't have made it that far or am I expecting too much?


----------



## stealthylizard (12 Jul 2010)

The article is somewhat untrue.  Not all military personnel receive this training before going overseas, and it isn't three weeks, unless the total of all phases combined is 3 weeks.  My phase 1 was one day, and I there were no cartoons, but death by power point ruled the presentation.


----------



## Sprinting Thistle (12 Jul 2010)

Yes, facts are what's missing.  CAC is broken into Level A, B, and C.  C comes with a practical exercise.  None of the levels take three weeks.  The Instructor course is 5 - 6 weeks.


----------



## tomahawk6 (12 Jul 2010)

The GWOT has seen a reduction in the length of the SERE course,because the bad guys dont normally take prisoners. As Kipling once wrote:

 "When wounded you lie on Afghanistan’s plains
And the women come out to carve up the remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your death like a soldier."


----------



## 1feral1 (12 Jul 2010)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> The article is somewhat untrue.  Not all military personnel receive this training before going overseas, and it isn't three weeks, unless the total of all phases combined is 3 weeks.  My phase 1 was one day, and I there were no cartoons, but death by power point ruled the presentation.



From the Aussie side.....

During my Force Prep Trg back in 2006, which was conducted in Holsworthy prior to deployment, this subject was only touched on for less than one 45 minute (maybe an hour) briefing, and that was Q&A to a Legal officer, who stumbled and um'd/ah'd his whole way through. He kept bringing up that we should suggest to our "captor's" that we were worth a lot of money for ransom, and that would buy us time. Go figure  : !

We knew we were f'd if we somehow got caught. We seen the videos of the beheadings, and knew what we were up against. During my time at FOB Union III, in 06 in Baghdad a US soldier AWOL'd from a near by FOB into the Karadah area on the south side of the Tigris, to hook up with some chick he met somehow outside the wire. He was never seen again alive and ended up recovered some time later from a shallow grave.  The Yanks had looked for him for days, Strykers and up armoured Hummers, huge patrols, helicopters etc. Truly bad news.

CC

EDITed for spelling.....


----------



## Occam (12 Jul 2010)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> The article is somewhat untrue.  Not all military personnel receive this training before going overseas, and it isn't three weeks, unless the total of all phases combined is 3 weeks.  My phase 1 was one day, and I there were no cartoons, but death by power point ruled the presentation.



So is SHARP, either in its previous form or another incarnation, not conducted during basic these days?


----------



## Tank Troll (12 Jul 2010)

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> The article is somewhat untrue.  Not all military personnel receive this training before going overseas, and it isn't three weeks, unless the total of all phases combined is 3 weeks.  My phase 1 was one day, and I there were no cartoons, but death by power point ruled the presentation.



True I went over in 07 and got none of this or the death by power point, The death by power point came once we got in KAF as our "orientation" and to to top it of I was with a French Battle group so guess what language it was in. ;D


----------



## Jarnhamar (12 Jul 2010)

I think they should have put the cartoons in final print.

They should also include not only graphic cartoons about sex but also ones featuring hardcore racisim. The worst black, indian, jewish, white, asian jokes you can find.
Some pictures of women (and men) being gang raped and sodomized.

This isn't aimed towards a BMQ course just starting out their military career.

The goal is to prepare the soldier airman and sailor for what they will possibly face after capture by a hostile force.  If you manage to get past the whole  getting your head cut off thing they aren't going to care what you find offensive and what you don't. They'll probably home in on it and use it against you.


----------



## Sprinting Thistle (12 Jul 2010)

The CAC programme has been a work in progress since 2005.  Prior to 2005 CAC was a 45 minute lecture taught by a relatively young Lt on a QL3 course.  The CAC policy was rewritten and a pilot instructor course run in 2005.  After that, each year another instructor course was run.  The problem is that the demand for training conventional and special forces far outstrips the instructors available.  At the same time a small instructor cadre has been trying diligently to build the programme beyond the initial work in 2005.  This includes offering training to Rotos deploying.  As well the training delivered has changed during this time.  The policy introduced in 2005 focused on CAC as a POW in a conventional conflict.  The cadre has done a very good job in expanding this material to include everything from being detained by a foreign government (much like in Iran with the UK sailors), POWs of a conventional force, hostage takings, or even capture by criminal enterprises.  The programme still needs work, and as the environments that the CF will find itself operating in change, so too will the CAC programme.  

Since the programme came out of the shadows in 2006 - 2007 it has received more oversight from legal and medical.  This has posed a significant challenge towards course content.  CAC should be seen as battle inoculation of the mind.  However as the content is filtered and toned down by the lawyers and psychologists, so too is the effect of the inoculation.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (12 Jul 2010)

Sprinting Thistle said:
			
		

> The policy introduced in 2005 focused on CAC as a POW in a conventional conflict.  The cadre has done a very good job in expanding this material to include everything from being detained by a foreign government (much like in Iran with the UK sailors), POWs of a conventional force, hostage takings, or even capture by criminal enterprises.  The programme still needs work, and as the environments that the CF will find itself operating in change, so too will the CAC programme.



 I just read something in along these lines in the papers last week. It was about a Brit(?) couple who had been held captive for some time and had been brutalized while captive. According to the article they were in Canada to talk of their experiences and how to survive during captivity.


----------



## PuckChaser (12 Jul 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> The goal is to prepare the soldier airman and sailor for what they will possibly face after capture by a hostile force.  If you manage to get past the whole  getting your head cut off thing they aren't going to care what you find offensive and what you don't. They'll probably home in on it and use it against you.



I was trying to find a way to put this, I think you hit the nail on the head. I know a few people in the CAC Instructor system, and the courses are no walk in the park. Its very realistic training, for a very serious situation.


----------



## Jarnhamar (13 Jul 2010)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> I was trying to find a way to put this, I think you hit the nail on the head. I know a few people in the CAC Instructor system, and the courses are no walk in the park. Its very realistic training, for a very serious situation.



We had a great presentation by a guy in Petawawa on work up.  Zero political correctness. He told it how it is.  An officer in the audience kept putting her hand up and felt the need to tell him "I find the words you're using VERY offensive" and kept inturrupting him to ask stupid questions and make protests over the material.  You know,  when someone tries to intimidate others with the "oh I'm O-F-F-E-N-D-E-D" stuff" 

Like the professional SNCO he was he didn't make her look like an idiot infront of everyone (though that's what everyone thought anyways) and basically drove the point home that the enemy won't give a shit about your feelings and toughen the hell up because you're going to war.

We need exposed to this training over the course of a week or two, not a morning of lectures.


----------



## 1feral1 (13 Jul 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> We need exposed to this training over the course of a week or two, not a morning of lectures.



Excellent post above!

At least you had a morning, as specified in my post it was a matter of minutes and was a pathetic attempt at best.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## PMedMoe (13 Jul 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> We had a great presentation by a guy in Petawawa on work up.  Zero political correctness. He told it how it is.  An officer in the audience kept putting her hand up and felt the need to tell him "I find the words you're using VERY offensive" and kept inturrupting him to ask stupid questions and make protests over the material.  You know,  when someone tries to intimidate others with the "oh I'm O-F-F-E-N-D-E-D" stuff"
> 
> Like the professional SNCO he was he didn't make her look like an idiot infront of everyone (though that's what everyone thought anyways) and basically drove the point home that the enemy won't give a shit about your feelings and toughen the hell up because you're going to war.
> 
> We need exposed to this training over the course of a week or two, not a morning of lectures.



I'm guessing that was a certain Sgt from Trenton?  If so, he was my instructor a couple years ago and I thought he was great.


----------



## Tank Troll (13 Jul 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> We had a great presentation by a guy in Petawawa on work up.  Zero political correctness. He told it how it is.  An officer in the audience kept putting her hand up and felt the need to tell him "I find the words you're using VERY offensive" and kept interrupting him to ask stupid questions and make protests over the material.  You know,  when someone tries to intimidate others with the "oh I'm O-F-F-E-N-D-E-D" stuff"
> 
> Like the professional SNCO he was he didn't make her look like an idiot in front of everyone (though that's what everyone thought anyways) and basically drove the point home that the enemy won't give a crap about your feelings and toughen the hell up because you're going to war.
> 
> We need exposed to this training over the course of a week or two, not a morning of lectures.



This political correctness is doing more harm to us than good.


----------



## Sprinting Thistle (13 Jul 2010)

All of the CAC instructors are selected from across the CF vice a specific environment.  Like every organization in the CF some are outstanding and some need further development.  However, every single one of them volunteered and then was selected to undergo very challenging and strenuous training.  Failure rate is high.  

All CAC organizations (UK, NZ, US, Canada) participate in the debrief of former hostages / captives when and where they are permitted.  Its the only way the instructors can stay current on trends, and TTPs, etc.  Also there is frequent exchanges with our allies to share the knowledge and experiences gained.


----------



## jollyjacktar (13 Jul 2010)

When they put the CAC to us at Valcatraz,  , prior to going over last year it was a one day event.  Thankfully in English for us Blokes and interesting if not alarming to some degree.  I do feel however that this training should be offered more widely and be of longer duration.  Just a taste is not enough, IMO.


----------



## Container (13 Jul 2010)

WRT to the article-

how does information compiled in 2007 for the course, and according to the posters here as far back as 2005, make light of the detainee controversy from late 2009?

Without seeing the actual course material I cant really say that the detainee cartoon is out of place. As for the other cartoons- easily correctable but it would appear it was already corrected according to the officer they spoke to for the article.

Another freedom of information fishing expedition with nothing real turned into a "something"


----------



## TN2IC (20 Jul 2010)

I just finsed Level B the other day and I found nothing offensive. Most of us have thick skin anyways.  It was an eye opener. But I"ll leave it at that. 

War is not user-friendly,



Regards,
TN2IC


----------



## SeanNewman (20 Jul 2010)

Occam said:
			
		

> So is SHARP, either in its previous form or another incarnation, not conducted during basic these days?



SHARP itself has been dead for a while.  We still get bi-annual harassment briefings, but now it's much more common-sense based.

Thankfully, the over-PC days are over and the rules themselves have changed.  For example, you can't claim harassment as person X if person Y said something to person Z that you didn't like.

It's all based on the concept of "*What would a rational person think is acceptable?*"  Of course at the end of the day the person making that call is going to be the CO.

So if you still do something stupid like tap a woman on the butt as she walks by you at work, you're going down.  But if you work with a woman and one day she does something drastically different with your hair and you say something like "Hi, I think the change looks really good on you", while before that would have been unacceptable would now _probably_ be fine*

*Note* Just giving hypothetical examples here, your experience may vary.


----------



## Jarnhamar (21 Jul 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> you say something like "Hi, I think the change looks really good on you", while before that would have been unacceptable would now _probably_ be fine*



Could someone actually get in shit for saying this to a female coworker?


----------



## kratz (21 Jul 2010)

I know it's a rhetorical question, but based on the SHARP training we were provided in the 90s, yes people could potentially have gotten in trouble for such a simple comment.

I remember the highlight of that course, one frustrated person asked if they'd get charged for thinking certain hypothetical thoughts. 
The sincerely honest instructor's answer was if said thought could be proven, yes.

In all honesty though, I have not seen anyone get in trouble for something so simple.


----------



## PuckChaser (21 Jul 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Could someone actually get in crap for saying this to a female coworker?



It would depend on a lot of factors, including the tone. The rule now is "would reasonably aught to have known it would be offensive to that person." If you had good intentions and can explain that, you won't be getting in trouble.


----------



## Sig_Des (21 Jul 2010)

Apollo Diomedes said:
			
		

> Could someone actually get in crap for saying this to a female coworker?



*Not a Harassment Advisor, just patched memory from SHARP training 6+ years ago*

My understanding is that all that is required for a member to make a harrassment complaint based on a statement is the _perceived_ intent of the statement.

Ergo, you could make the statement "Hi, I think the change looks really good on you" in a completely innocent and complimentary manner, but if the person being complimented even THOUGHT you were being innappropriate, they would have grounds to make a complaint.

Now, common sense to me would say this would go to an HA/Mediator, who would then investigate, and hopefully toss it out, but these days, who knows.


----------

