# Standard Mag Issue



## westie47 (7 Dec 2004)

I'm just wondering if any units out there have joined the 21st century of soldiering and have increased the standard number of mags issued up to 10 from 5. I think it's high time that we get out of the 70's and into the millenium. My buddy does bodyguard work in Iraq and their standard load-out is 15 in their chest rigs with a further 10 in the 'go' bag!!!! I know when we did FIBUA a few years ago, it almost took an Order-in-Council from the CO to get the RQ to issue 10 mags per man. What's the big deal I ask? If I take 10 then I'm responsible for 10. I know the TV is designed to only carry 5, but they have made an insert for the C9 pouch to carry 5 more. A day late and a dollar short, if you ask me!

Here's an amusing yet frustrating antidote from a brigade ex I was on back in 98. We were in Ft Lewis, doing live-fire training up to sect level. Well we arrived at the sect attack range, all gung-ho to do the business. My buddy, who was a sect 2i/c, wanted to borrow my Saracen chest rig and some extra mags so he would have 10. I always carried 10 min. We got off the trucks and the 3 PPCLI WO, who was stuck in 1975, told us to drop our kit, put our mags in our helmets and to clear weapons (SOP). My buddy puts his 10 mags in his helmet as directed. As the WO comes up, he says, "What the **** is that?" "Those are my mags", replies the poor MCpl. "Where did you get 10, my troops only have 5, 5 is the standard issue, so get rid of the other 5 mags, NOW!!!" replied the crusty old WO. So my friend does. The next command, "Move to the ammo point and collect your ammo and grenades" This is the humorous/frustrating part. So the disgruntled MCpl goes and collects 300 rds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well he was ready to start shooting right then and there. That's the kind of close-mindedness we need to overcome. 

Any thoughts on the matter. I know as my unit goes into sect attack and FIBUA training after Christmas, I plan on fighting this battle all over again.


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## Kendrick (7 Dec 2004)

Here in the East, 34 brigade, we're still at 5 mags...  they parade loud and flashy about the new army and restructuration and whatnot, but thats only happening in offices somewhere.  To tell you the truth though, in most exercises we do we could do with 2 mags.  We get blank rounds everytime, but not a whole lot.  But I would agree with you, if we were to load up tons of ammo, a decent amount of mags would be useful.  Our resources are VERY thin.  Can't expect much of anything, it's all gone to hell admin-wise, and us poor grunts are stuck in the middle with it.  

Mind you, we're in the reserves, can't expect the same level of resources like MJB and KevinB see


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## Matt_Fisher (7 Dec 2004)

Sounds like somebody's been "put out to pasture" for the remainder of his career as RSS.


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## Infanteer (7 Dec 2004)

I'm laughing right now because I know some of these details.

Westie47, have fun in your battles with those who like to hoard stuff.


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## MCpl Burtoo (7 Dec 2004)

On any Ex I have been on, if more than 5 mags are req...we get them. With trench clearing and such, it does not seem to be an issue...that has been my experience anyway. Mind you I have been an EXs, and ranges where I have my 5 x mags and then a couple of bandoleers of ammo...ready for the re-org. With the amount of ammo we get on EXs lately...5 mags seems to do just fine-lol


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## KevinB (7 Dec 2004)

In 1Vp we had 7 mags for Rifle coys and 10 for Recce 
overseas I had 16  ;D

 Now back in trg we have 5  ???
I heard 3VP is doing 10 still regardless.


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## westie47 (7 Dec 2004)

I realize that at home here we hardly get enough ammo to fill 5 mags, but when I was in Croatia (93!!!) we didn't even wear webbing and I was given 300+ rounds. I know for advance-to-contact training 5 should be enough. But for FIBUA troops should have more. Is it written anywhere that 5 mags are standard issue? I don't think it's in the C7 pam. Or is it just something that has become the status quo? Be that as it may, I believe that it's time for a change of thinking.

Matt - that WO was serving in a battalion at the time and was not RSS. By the way, what is the standard issue for you fine Marines?


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## Matt_Fisher (7 Dec 2004)

Westie47,

In the Marines it varies from unit to unit and currently in my unit, since we're in garrison and reserve status right now with money being a bit tighter we're down to 7 magazines issued to each Marine.   Our Tac-Vest holds 6 and one in the weapon makes 7.

However, when we went to Iraq last year it was pretty much like shopping at Wal-Mart the way our armoury was handing out magazines once we got to Kuwait.  Our scouts were carrying 10-13 mags each as a standard load.  I've pretty much gone to a setup of 8 mags on my vest and 2 with the weapon using a Mag-Cinch.

The other thing to realize is that 30-rd. AR-15/M-16 magazines here in the US are not prohibited weapons accessories as they are in Canada, so alot of guys purchase their own.   Also, losing magazines isn't as big of a deal as it is in Canada.  If you tell the armoury that you "lost" a magazine or two they'll probably give you a verbal dressing down and then give you replacements, but you've got to obviously be smart about it and it helps if you've got an NCO with you to "vouch" that the magazine was lost during training, ie. live-fire assault course, etc.


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## KevinB (8 Dec 2004)

I think 5 mags is bullshit especially for ATC - unless you are mech and just dismoutnign on the objective.
 Winning the firefight is a lot more than launching a few rounds and going into Up he sees me down.  Something our trg system sadly loses track of.

A shooting buddy down south was part of the Infamous BHD raid - and even later as a LTC he had 21 mags and 18 M203 rds plus 7 mags for his 1911...

We have not had that hard reality hit home yet for Canadians - Unfortunately it is coming.


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## westie47 (8 Dec 2004)

Kevin - I agree with you, the time is coming and some poor b*****ds are going to find out the hard way, then, maybe, THEY will realize that troops should carry at least 10 mags, and that a second gen TV will have to get made in order to carry a realistic combat load. You'd think no one high up has ever read any history! Anyway I will continue to bring my own mags into the field to supplement our meager issue, and modify my kit in order to achieve whatever mission (real or imagined) comes along.


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## Kal (8 Dec 2004)

Hey, Westie47, where did you get the other mags to supplement your issued ones?  Coming by 30rd mags here in Canada is nearly impossible and I couldn't see your unit lending them out to you........?


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## foerestedwarrior (8 Dec 2004)

You can buy them in the states cant you....ill leave it to your imagination.


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## westie47 (8 Dec 2004)

I found some very cheap at a surplus store outside of Ft Lewis, Washington. $9.00 each! Getting them to the border can be a little dicy, but as long as you have a PAL (restricted) and they are going to be 'pinned'. You can have them!!


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## Kal (8 Dec 2004)

Well, I always thought you could buy some in the States then bring them over, thinking it was illegal, getting busted and possibly getting a weapons charge here at home wouldnt have been fun though...  I'm waiting on my restricted license as of now, can someone say road trip.....  Maybe in a couple weeks...

Thanks for the comments


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## Ralph Wigum (8 Dec 2004)

Hello, I am wondering in Canada can you buy 30 round C7 mags  for use if I went overseas? And if so are there any documents that are required? Where can i get them?
Thanks :gunner:


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## Infanteer (8 Dec 2004)

Nope.  Prohibited - mags pinned to five rounds is the law, AFAIK.


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## westie47 (8 Dec 2004)

No you can only buy pinned mags in Canada thanks to one Mr. Mark Lapine. That way when you go on a shooting spree it forces you to get good at mag changes!


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## Paras (8 Dec 2004)

I couldnt agree with you guys more.Ive spoken to Mcpl's at my unit about the isue and all they have to say is"CF combat load is 5 mags ,so 5 mags is all you need".Its sad really that our army is so behind in mindset.


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## Armymedic (8 Dec 2004)

Paras said:
			
		

> I couldnt agree with you guys more.Ive spoken to Mcpl's at my unit about the isue and all they have to say is"CF combat load is 5 mags ,so 5 mags is all you need".Its sad really that our army is so behind in mindset.



Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe the cbt load is 300 rds 5.56 for a rifleman/soldier carrying a C7.

Does ammo bandoliers come in preloaded magazines?

If not then I agree with you, we should be issued more mags. But for training here in Canada, 5 is enough, and even then often just carried empty.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Dec 2004)

westie47 said:
			
		

> No you can only buy pinned mags in Canada thanks to one Mr. Mark Lapine. That way when you go on a shooting spree it forces you to get good at mag changes!



Or unpin your mags, use illegal ones (which probably outnumber legal ones), etc....

Really think all the criminals turned in their mags, do you?   You probably think they registered their guns too....


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Dec 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Nope.   Prohibited - mags pinned to five rounds is the law, AFAIK.



Yes, this is correct.  Any idiots thinking they can walk across the border with a 30 round mag, feel free.  Prohibited means the magazine is the same as crossing the border with an Uzi.  Can't have it, don't even dream about owning them legally.

Is it really worth getting caught just so you can play Rambo on a Militia exercise for 2 days?  Put a mag charger in the yoke of your webbing like everyone else...


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## Kendrick (8 Dec 2004)

Amen.


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## 1feral1 (8 Dec 2004)

Sometimes there is some stupid questions on here. In short, just use issued eqpt, as its standard, and there are many varieties of M16 30rd mags ranging from plastic to steel, and many Chi-Com ones which are inferior products. 

Steel ones will defeat the alloy housings of the M16s/M4s over time. Murhpy's law always prevails, and I would not want to see inferior mags trickle into the system, and somehow end up on operations. With many countries now using M16 mag design, now known as 5.56 x 45mm STANAG 30rd mags, I have seen Malaysian, US, French, British, Israeli, and even mags from Singapore floating around here. 

Simply maintain what you have, and don't purchase foreign made stuff, as it might look the same, but it may be crap instead. Never transport prohibited stuff accross borders either, as you could end up in dirty great pile of shyte over it.

Canada uses stock standard alloy US mags for their C7/C8 families, and the mags are okay as the design has been on general issue since the early 70's in the USA. Prior to that, 20rd mags were standard, and there are thousands and thousands of them still here within Australia. US alloy 30rd mags are standard for the M4s here.

We can all ***** and complain about mags, but I am sure they are much more plentyfull it the SHTF in theatre.

Here 30rd 5.56 x 45mm plastic F88 mags are common, and its no big deal if one is lost or damaged. F88 mags are only common to the F88 and no other design. In my M83 AUSCAM LBV, there is 10 mag pouches, but here in Australia its 7 mags general issue, but rarely do we get 7 mags, usually 2 or 4 for exercises here.

As for chargers, we have them in bandoleers of a cotton OD bag with 10 pre-loaded charger/strippers all in one. The chargers fit both F88 and M16 mags and each charger holds 15 rds.

When in the CF I never heard of pre-loaded 30rd mags in bandoleers, but in the old US cloth bandoleers, one could fit a loaded 20rd mag into each pouch of the bandloeer, which may have gave the impression that there were such things. 

When in the VN the US only 18rds of ball was loaded into each mag, and this was the same SOPs in Viet Nam for the 20rd 7.62mm mags for the L1A1 SL rifle.

Cheers,

Wes


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## chrisf (8 Dec 2004)

Wesley H. Allen said:
			
		

> When in the CF I never heard of pre-loaded 30rd mags in bandoleers, but in the old US cloth bandoleers, one could fit a loaded 20rd mag into each pouch of the bandloeer, which may have gave the impression that there were such things.



Weren't the old plastic magazines supposed to be disposable, or at least semi-disposable?


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## Jungle (8 Dec 2004)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe the cbt load is 300 rds 5.56 for a rifleman/soldier carrying a C7.
> Does ammo bandoliers come in preloaded magazines?


Combat load is 250 rds: 5 x 30-rd mags and 1 x 100-rd bandolier.
The bandolier comes with a mag-charger and 10 x 10-rd clips.


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## pappy (8 Dec 2004)

I think others have mentioned it but your combat load depends a lot on the type of unit your in...  the larger the unit the more the individuals SHOULD be trained to maintain some sort of fire discipline, with some shooting, some reloading.  Granted more mags is nice in a fire fight in a target rich enviroment.  But for some of the peacekeeping missions the CAF does humping 10-20 mags does seem excessive especially if in a regular infantry company.  Granted as with everything, circumstances rule, if your making an assualt then more is better to a point you can still move.  Larger units have greater access to resupply.

Smaller units, IE, the no name groups, bodyguards, RECCE, scouts, your typical very small group of folks... well they are likely to be needing the fire power to survive with all members shooting sustained WELL AIMED FIRE.  A small handful of men don't have the comfort to reload thier empties during the battle. Smaller units like these are more likely to spend more time between resupplies, they gotta hump more of thier needs.

I tend to think we've ALL gotten spoiled with full auto and tend to use that slector switch setting rather then then then marksmanship abilities of the man and woman behind the rifle.  Don't impact your ability to move quickly!  Remember to keep mobility.

And I agree with those that said don't worry, when the turd is in the fan, your get pretty much as many mags as you care to carry.  It's just in garrison and peace time training, they more you carry the more your likely to lose.

Oh yeah, my vest will hold up to 18 30-rds mags without taking up other pouches.  10 plus pistol mags if needed. plus what's in the weapon.
More typical load would be 4 pistol mags, 10 rifle mags, or less.  But that's me...

If you guys are looking for add-ons, not everyone likes them there, but many manufactures are making butt-stock mag pouches.  One additional one.

But in the end, if your in a target rich enviroment, loaded mags are one of your best friends.


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## foerestedwarrior (8 Dec 2004)

My only problem is that you are trainign differently than you are expected to fight, 5-8 extra mags may not sound like much, but it changes your whole kit layout, plus the extra bit of weight. Train as you fight, fight as you train.


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## KevinB (8 Dec 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Is it really worth getting caught just so you can play Rambo on a Militia exercise for 2 days?   Put a mag charger in the yoke of your webbing like everyone else...



I took extra personal mags to Afghan with me.   I consider it train as you fight...   Mag pieces are not restricted in nay way or form (by law) so I simply re-assembled my mags once in Afghan - and disassembled them prior to flying home.   


Jungle - some old RCR BSL stuff I have (from when I was once briefly trusted as a leader...) Dictates 300rds as the CF "BattleLoad"   - 3 bandoliers issued and 1 1/2 remaining after you bomb up.

Realisitcally it really does depend upon the mission as to ones "combat" load - We got 20rds in Cyprus (to carry in a mag in our breast POCKET!) - while I had 16 30rd mags and a 20rd mag or tracer when I was in Afghan... plus pistol mags and 12ga ammo...


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## 1feral1 (9 Dec 2004)

Just a Sig Op said:
			
		

> Weren't the old plastic magazines supposed to be disposable, or at least semi-disposable?



Nope, the plastic ones were designed to never loose their colour, and absorb shock. There were other problems involving durability, and even a spring issue, and they were adventually dropped for 'off the shelf' ones. There was mega bucks spent on the plastic mag research, and it was truly a waste of money. DND should have went with the generic ones in the first place.

Regards,

Wes


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## westie47 (9 Dec 2004)

I believe in train how you will fight. I think keeping the issue at 5 mags per is a logistical decision more than a tactical one. I don't know about other units, but mine does not train troops to fire auto. It takes too much time and training to teach troops how to do it properly so we keep it on rep. Even when we are 'clearing
the trench', the troops throw a grenade and enetr firing rapid fire on repitition. You can learn to fire very fast and keep your rounds on target. I do some good drills on my own with my M4 at the local range and I pass it on to the troops. I don't think 10 mags is excessive at all. Yeah if we were going to the big show, I would cram as many as would fit. They issue you 300 rounds, then let's give the boys 10 mags to carry it!


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## foerestedwarrior (9 Dec 2004)

My big thing is that at my unit, atleast my garrison, is we have atleast 3 milk crates of mags. On a normal ex, we only have to dish out like 1 or 2 of these, so how hard would it be to divide the rest of them out to the troops??


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