# RMC After a University Degree



## 456952

Hi, 

I want to be a Legal Officer in the Forces. At the same time I want the RMC experience.

I was wondering if it is possible for me to get a law degree then do a BA at RMC. 

If you can help, please do.

Thank you


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## dangles

You need to have passed the BAR exam and be "in good standing in a Provincial law society"  in order to be a legal officer in the forces. So, this means you must already be a lawyer in order to become a Legal Officer. Consequently, since RMC does not offer a law program at the graduate level [like an LLB or Juris Doctor] you will not be able to go to RMC in hopes of pursuing a graduate law degree. Yet, you can do your undergraduate degree  at RMC if you wish and then apply to the proper graduate program after that is completed. 

You should consider that your total time in University will be 7 years minimum [4 for an honours bachelor of arts - although you can do a 3 year degree it is very rare to be accepted into a graduate law program without an honours degree - and then 3 for the minimum LLB]. Also, this will be school you will be paying for yourself. I assume this based on the aforementioned requirements to become a Legal Office that  require you to already be practicing law.

I suggest you do further research on the requirements to be accepted into a law program at the graduate level. I as well wanted to become a lawyer...that is before I started University and realized that it would be too much time/work for not necessarily as much compensation one would assume. Also, factor in the need to maintain an 80% minimum average in your undergraduate degree that will most likely be in the arts [because the skills you learn in these programs are most valuable to passing the LSAT/succeeding in the graduate program], and you will realize an 80% average in an arts program requires a lot of work. I mean there is a small percentage of students who can maintain those grades in University and balance other aspects of their life [work, friends, family]. 

Anyways, those are just my thoughts and opinions. I do not mean to discourage you, however it seems like you have not done much research into this occupation, which I can tell from your inaccurate portrayal of the requirements to receive a law degree/become a Legal Officer in the Canadian Forces. :2c:


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## Michael OLeary

dangles said:
			
		

> You need to have passed the BAR exam and be "in good standing in a Provincial law society"  in order to be a legal officer in the forces. So, this means you must already be a lawyer in order to become a Legal Officer. Consequently, since RMC does not offer a law program at the graduate level [like an LLB or Juris Doctor] you will not be able to go to RMC in hopes of pursuing a graduate law degree. Yet, you can do your undergraduate degree  at RMC if you wish and then apply to the proper graduate program after that is completed.



Did you miss this part?



			
				456952 said:
			
		

> I was wondering if it is possible for me to *get a law degree then do a BA at RMC*.



Regardless, I do not believe that you can be admitted to RMC for a Bachelor's Degree if you already have one.


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## Steve031

It actually is possible to have the military pay for your legal education.  However, you can only apply for it from within the forces and you have to already have an undergraduate degree.  I'm a school with someone right now who's doing that, and I have to say that as an impoverished student I'm pretty jealous of the crazy money he's making as a Lt (N), off post living differential and having all his school expenses paid.


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## Michael OLeary

Steve031 said:
			
		

> It actually is possible to have the military pay for your legal education.



Yes, but that wasn't his question.


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## 456952

The only thing I want is the RMC experience. I could go into the Forces through Direct Entry but I would miss RMC. 

If I go to RMC can I ask them to let me join the forces 4-5 years later after I have a law degree. I would pay for Law school myself.

Any opinions on that


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## 456952

No @Stacked

I'm sorry for not making myself clear

I want to do be a Legal Officer in the Canadian Forces but I also want to spend time at RMC. I want to gain the RMC experience as well.

I was just asking if I could do a BA at RMC go and do a law degree while promising to come back to work in the Forces.

I hope that is clearer


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## Pusser

If you want to go to RMC under the Regular Officer Training Program (ROTP) where there is no tuition and you receive a salary, then no, you probably don't want this.  Upon completion of a baccalaureate under ROTP (at RMC or otherwise), you will have to serve 3-5 years of obligatory service in your military occupation (which won't be legal officer).  At that point (now eight years down the road), you could leave the CF and go to law school and re-join later (many have done this), or you could apply for the Legal Officer Training Plan (LOTP).  

If you want to go to law school immediately after finishing RMC, then you probably want to think about the Reserve Entry Training Plan (RETP), where you still go to RMC, but you have to pay tuition and other expenses and you don't receive a salary (except when on summer training).  If you graduate from RMC under RETP, there is no obligatory service incurred (although you are encouraged to join the Primary Reserve).  I know of at least one current legal officer who went this route.  As an aside, I have been led to believe that the salary you will earn during the summers pretty much covers the tuition and other costs you will incur during the school year, but my information is dated.

Finally, if you already have a bachelor's degree, are you sure that four years at RMC is worth the experience?


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## jwtg

Pusser said:
			
		

> Finally, if you already have a bachelor's degree, are you sure that four years at RMC is worth the experience?



Probably the important question!  I'm sure the novelty would wear off sooner than later....


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## Michael OLeary

jwtg said:
			
		

> Probably the important question!  I'm sure the novelty would wear off sooner than later....



LIkely on Day 2,


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## tabernac

456952 said:
			
		

> At the same time I want the RMC experience.



If you've already got a degree, I'd caution you against wanting the "RMC experience."


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## JMesh

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Regardless, I do not believe that you can be admitted to RMC for a Bachelor's Degree if you already have one.



Do you happen to know if this applies to DCS degrees as well or EDIT: only to those under ROTP or RETP?


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## Michael OLeary

JMesh said:
			
		

> Do you happen to know if this applies to DCS degrees as well or EDIT: only to those under ROTP or RETP?



To the best of my knowledge, the CF will not pay you to attend RMC (or any other university) to get a Bachelor's Degree as a commissioning requirement is you already have one.


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## ballz

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> To the best of my knowledge, the CF will not pay you to attend RMC (or any other university) to get a Bachelor's Degree as a commissioning requirement is you already have one.



Unless your degree is not accepted for your occupation right?


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## gcclarke

ballz said:
			
		

> Unless your degree is not accepted for your occupation right?



Correct. If you have an engineering degree but want to be a Nurse, the CF would pay for that. Although I would hope the recruiter would try to steer you towards one of the engineering trades.

As this would never be the case for someone who has a Law degree and wants to be a Legal Officer, this particular scenario is impossible.


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## TangoTwoBravo

From your profile I am taking that you are an army cadet. Is this correct?

If you are still in high school and you want the RMC experience and to become a legal officer (too many JAG reruns?) then perhaps apply for RMC, serve in an honest occupation upon graduation for a few years and then apply for legal? I have colleagues that essentially did that (some were DEO, but _macht nicht_).


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## nickanick

If I'm already in my 2nd-3rd year of my post secondary education.
Am I still eligible to apply in ROTP?
I understand that only maximum of 1 year could be subsidize,
but I'm willing to make this cost in order to get my most desirable position in CF. 

Thank you


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## PuckChaser

Pretty sure that's called CEOTP, not ROTP since you're mostly complete with your degree.


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## Pusser

As far as I know you can apply for ROTP at any time while in university.  The later you do it, however, will reduce the amount of subsidization you will receive.  It is possible, though to  receive retroactive subsidization.  I went through basic training with a few guys who were reimbursed for the year in which they applied as opposed to just the ones they had yet to complete (i.e. they got money back for the year they started before they were enrolled).   It's worth a shot.

CEOTP is a program for where officers get their degrees in their own/spare time (i.e they are expected to train/work in their military occupations most of the time).  ROTP is for officers who complete their degrees at full time students.


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## gcclarke

If you are what the CFRG considers to be an "Undergraduate Applicant", you must require between 3 and 1.5 of subsidized education in order to get a degree that would qualify you for your target trade, unless you're a BMOQ by-pass. If this is the case, you must attend a civvie university. 

For those who are on the DIN and curious, I got this off the CFRG website here, under annex C of the ROTP instructions.


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## nickanick

Is it sound to wait till 2012 September to enroll to ROTP? since I have missed 2011's enrollment date.
Does RMC only start in September?
I have studied in university for 2 years now. 
But the psychology degree I'm taking won't get me to any trades,
it's not "direct" degree to any trades, quoted from my recruiter. 
So DEO might be a disadvantages for me.


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## dangles

nickanick said:
			
		

> Is it sound to wait till 2012 September to enroll to ROTP? since I have missed 2011's enrollment date.
> Does RMC only start in September?
> I have studied in university for 2 years now.
> But the psychology degree I'm taking won't get me to any trades,
> it's not "direct" degree to any trades, quoted from my recruiter.
> So DEO might be a disadvantages for me.



Don't worry about that. Many trades have "recommended" degrees, but they will still take people with a recognized degree in presumably anything [assuming you meet the other qualifications and there are no other suitable candidates with the recommended degree]. 

What trade did you want to apply for?


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## nickanick

dangles said:
			
		

> Don't worry about that. Many trades have "recommended" degrees, but they will still take people with a recognized degree in presumably anything [assuming you meet the other qualifications and there are no other suitable candidates with the recommended degree].
> 
> What trade did you want to apply for?



ASCO or NCM ENG


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## Pusser

A degree in Psychology should get you into MARS, pilot, Artillery, Infantry, and Armour without question.  It should also be acceptable for a wide variety of others (including Logistics).  Remember you don't even have to have an Engineering degree to be an engineer in some cases (Physics and Computer Science work for some Engineering Officer occupations).


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## dangles

nickanick said:
			
		

> ASCO or NCM ENG



Well you do not require a degree for any NCM position.


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## nickanick

dangles said:
			
		

> Well you do not require a degree for any NCM position.



Sorry, What I meant is the NCS ENG, the naval combat system engineer officer.
Do you think there is a different in joining the army res and navy res,
if NCS ENG is what I would like to pursue in the future? 
Would joining the navy res benefit me in the position of the merit list? e.g. to get on a topper position on the list. 

Thx guys


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## dangles

nickanick said:
			
		

> Sorry, What I meant is the NCS ENG, the naval combat system engineer officer.
> Do you think there is a different in joining the army res and navy res,
> if NCS ENG is what I would like to pursue in the future?
> Would joining the navy res benefit me in the position of the merit list? e.g. to get on a topper position on the list.
> 
> Thx guys



The Naval Combat System Engineer Officer is a trade that is Navy only. If you wanted this trade, first you would have to improve your English skills. Second, you would have to join a Navy reserve [assuming you meet all qualifications and they are hiring]. So yes, I think there is a big difference in joining the Army reserve and Navy reserve for this occupation.


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## Brasidas

gcclarke said:
			
		

> If you are what the CFRG considers to be an "Undergraduate Applicant", you must require between 3 and 1.5 of subsidized education in order to get a degree that would qualify you for your target trade, *unless you're a BMOQ by-pass. If this is the case, you must attend a civvie university. *



That part confuses me. So a PLQ, 6A-qualified ex-reservist sergeant doesn't have the option of applying for RMC, presuming BMOQ by-pass?


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## gcclarke

Brasidas said:
			
		

> That part confuses me. So a PLQ, 6A-qualified ex-reservist sergeant doesn't have the option of applying for RMC, presuming BMOQ by-pass?



Sorry. Miswording on my part. If you're an Undergraduate Applicant, you must attend a civvie university, BMOQ bypass or not. I guess they only like sending people to RMC for the full 4 years. I think the BMOQ by-pass just affects which range of subsidized education required might allow you to be considered an Undergraduate Applicant, although it didn't specify whether or not it bumped it up or down.

Someone with a BMOQ by-pass can still go to RMC, assuming they need the full 4 years. 



			
				nickanick said:
			
		

> Sorry, What I meant is the NCS ENG, the naval combat system engineer officer.
> Do you think there is a different in joining the army res and navy res,
> if NCS ENG is what I would like to pursue in the future?
> Would joining the navy res benefit me in the position of the merit list? e.g. to get on a topper position on the list.
> 
> Thx guys



To be frank, it often seems like it's quicker to apply fresh off the street than it is to join up in the reserves and then attempt a component transfer / occupation transfer. Administration can be a pain sometimes. I always advise people not to join up in one trade solely with the intention of changing trades later. It's never a guarantee.


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## bdb1231

I finished my Business degree with low GPA. I'm thinking of applying ROTP for my second degree in science. My Gr12 marks were pretty good, my top 6 were 82%. Do I have a chance?


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## ModlrMike

In my opinion, unlikely. The ROTP programme is primarily concerned with providing an initial degree. That being said, there's always exceptions. The only answer that really counts is the one you get from Recruiting.


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## PuckChaser

bdb1231 said:
			
		

> I finished my Business degree with low GPA. I'm thinking of applying ROTP for my second degree in science. My Gr12 marks were pretty good, my top 6 were 82%. Do I have a chance?



I personally don't think the Army is in the business of paying for you to get extra degrees because you didn't like your marks. If you were already enrolled.... maybe.


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## bdb1231

I'm getting a second Science degree to get into a technical trade. Because with my Business degree I can't get an interesting job in CF.

I'm not doing my degree again to get a better GPA, I'm doing my degree again to get me into something I like to do.

I probably have much more education, job experience and more mature than 95% of the high school grads. Would CF pick me over a fresh grad for ROTP?


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## Strike

bdb1231 said:
			
		

> I'm doing my degree again to get me into something I like to do.



First of all, you're not, "doing a degree again," you're doing another degree.

Second, I dare say that there are very few officers graduating from RMC who have actually used their degrees in their military work.

Personally never heard of someone going to RMC or going ROTP who already has a degree.  Heard of people going to RMC who have not completed a degree though.


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## ballz

Strike said:
			
		

> Second, I dare say that there are very few officers graduating from RMC who have actually used their degrees in their military work.



3.5 years of a 4 year BBA complete and I'm wondering if there's anyone who will actually use anything from this degree for their civlian work either ;D


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## VeryMerry

Strike said:
			
		

> Personally never heard of someone going to RMC or going ROTP who already has a degree.  Heard of people going to RMC who have not completed a degree though.



I am in this position. I have applied for ROTP Nursing after having already completed a BSc and BEd. I have had no problems during my application and was advised that my education actually makes me a better candidate for the program. I would assume that they would not sponsor another degree if I had chosen a trade that simply required any degree. Since nursing is such a specific degree (and in demand), it makes sense that they would sponsor similar trades for second degree applicants.


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## gcclarke

bdb1231 said:
			
		

> I finished my Business degree with low GPA. I'm thinking of applying ROTP for my second degree in science. My Gr12 marks were pretty good, my top 6 were 82%. Do I have a chance?



I'd say you have a chance, but your chance is likely lower than it would be had you just applied straight out of High School. If you had done well on your first degree, that wouldn't be the case. But, to be frank, you've already proven that you struggle academically at the University level, and you're now asking the taxpayers to subsidize your education for what could arguably be considered a more difficult program. When figuring out whether or not to extend this opportunity to yourself or someone else, the personnel involved in the choice must take into consideration their evaluation of how likely you might be to succeed in your studies. 

Now, of course, you you didn't post your GPA, so it's entirely possible that your idea of what constitutes a "low GPA" and my idea of the same are wildly disparate. This is just the thought process that ran through my mind, but I think it's safe to assume that whoever gives the final nay or yea will be considering the same things.


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## breezie

Just for clarification, if you want to do ROTP at RMC, you will be starting again as a first year, regardless of how many years of university you already have. You may get lots of transfer credits that you can apply to your degree (depending on your program and what you've already done), which will lighten your course load, but you will start again as a first year, as RMC is not just about the academic aspects. This is especially true in first year. I was lucky enough to figure out a way to skip second year, as I had 19 transfer credits from other universities (I already had a degree that was deemed not applicable to my trade). But, skipping any part of the program is definitely not the norm, and only about one cadet a year does that at most (and it's usually due to CEGEP credits). RMC has a very structured program, and it's really hard to make it fit around different circumstances (but not impossible).


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## Strike

VeryMerry said:
			
		

> I am in this position. I have applied for ROTP Nursing after having already completed a BSc and BEd. I have had no problems during my application and was advised that my education actually makes me a better candidate for the program. I would assume that they would not sponsor another degree if I had chosen a trade that simply required any degree. Since nursing is such a specific degree (and in demand), it makes sense that they would sponsor similar trades for second degree applicants.



I did say *RMC*.  ROTP nursing is a tad different as you need that specific degree in order to enter that trade.  Not comparable.


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## runormal

If all you want is some "Experience" i'm sure you can get it, just depends how long you want. When I toured RMC, i was sitting in a psychology stat class, the guy who was giving me the tour pointed out that this older guy, was a major and went back to RMC to do some classes , I forget the reason, but it is possible.

Obviously once you are in the CF if you can some how argue/persuade why you need to go back to school, you can do it but it will mean you have to add more years to your contract.

You can also call the CFRC.


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## George Wallace

runormal said:
			
		

> If all you want is some "Experience" i'm sure you can get it, just depends how long you want. When I toured RMC, i was sitting in a psychology stat class, the guy who was giving me the tour pointed out that this older guy, was a major and went back to RMC to do some classes , I forget the reason, but it is possible.
> 
> Obviously once you are in the CF if you can some how argue/persuade why you need to go back to school, you can do it but it will mean you have to add more years to your contract.
> 
> You can also call the CFRC.



Sitting in a class/taking a class is not the same thing as getting a Degree.  Anyone can take a class.  The question here is taking all the credits/classes necessary to acquire another Degree.


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## TangoTwoBravo

There are certainly officers who attend RMC later in life to obtain a degree. They don't, however, march around and enjoy the "RMC Experience."


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## nickanick

breezie said:
			
		

> Just for clarification, if you want to do ROTP at RMC, you will be starting again as a first year, regardless of how many years of university you already have. You may get lots of transfer credits that you can apply to your degree (depending on your program and what you've already done), which will lighten your course load, but you will start again as a first year, as RMC is not just about the academic aspects. This is especially true in first year. I was lucky enough to figure out a way to skip second year, as I had 19 transfer credits from other universities (I already had a degree that was deemed not applicable to my trade). But, skipping any part of the program is definitely not the norm, and only about one cadet a year does that at most (and it's usually due to CEGEP credits). RMC has a very structured program, and it's really hard to make it fit around different circumstances (but not impossible).



I'm having my 2nd year in psychology major now, and hoping to get into ROTP for an engineering degree. 
I wonder would I get all the credits transfer to RMC, despite that they r two different majors.


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## George Wallace

nickanick said:
			
		

> I'm having my 2nd year in psychology major now, and hoping to get into ROTP for an engineering degree.
> I wonder would I get all the credits transfer to RMC, despite that they r two different majors.



RMC is a recognized Canadian university.  You would have your credits recognized/transferred/accredited the same way you would if you were transferring to any other Canadian university, through the Registrar's office.


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## Neill McKay

nickanick said:
			
		

> I'm having my 2nd year in psychology major now, and hoping to get into ROTP for an engineering degree.
> I wonder would I get all the credits transfer to RMC, despite that they r two different majors.



To add to George's answer, while credits may be transferable I suspect that only a limited number of them will be applicable to an engineering degree.  Without knowing the details of the requirements for that degree at RMC, I'd speculate (based on my time at a civilian university) that you might get a couple of arts and/or business electives and perhaps some first-year hard sciences if you've taken any of those.


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## ballz

N. McKay said:
			
		

> To add to George's answer, while credits may be transferable I suspect that only a limited number of them will be applicable to an engineering degree.  Without knowing the details of the requirements for that degree at RMC, I'd speculate (based on my time at a civilian university) that you might get a couple of arts and/or business electives and perhaps some first-year hard sciences if you've taken any of those.



Agreed, being accredited is nice and all but some university's let ego or some other unknown variable that's just as stupid get in the way.

My buddy was in the same year as me, but went to RMC instead of Civie U. Didn't get the trade he wanted (Land Engineer O) so decided to get out after the first year as he was entitled to do, and came back to Newfoundland for school. MUN gave him credit for 2 courses out of a full year of courses at RMC, and wouldn't accept any of Engineering courses towards his Engineering degree.

Meanwhile, Dalhousie will give a CF member 3 classes worth of credits for attending SLT in St. Jean during the summers.

All depends on the university, and likely the person sitting behind the desk.


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## George Wallace

Each university has its own policies as to what credits they will accept and the number of credits they will allow you to keep towards one of their Degrees.


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