# Has anyone here completed FSA/HRA QL3s in the past year or so?



## Navyynick (28 Jun 2020)

I'm currently in the middle of a COT to the clerk trade, I have 8 years in the navy. I was just wondering what to expect in terms of drill, inspections, etc with the 3s course in Borden. Need to know what kind of mindset to go into borden with after 8 pretty lax years in the navy. 

Any insight is appreciated, thanks


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## Blackadder1916 (28 Jun 2020)

Navyynick said:
			
		

> . . .  clerk trade . . .  after 8 pretty lax years in the navy.



If recent comment in other topics are anything to go on, don't call them "clerks" anymore, it may be considered demeaning.  And from some of the same comments it is likely that 8 years in anything other than the clerk trade is not considered lax.   :

Best of luck though.


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## stellarpanther (28 Jun 2020)

I've taken my courses a while ago but we've had a couple new mbr's who've recently graduated from the HRA RQ Pte course.  Other than being a longer version because it's all one course now instead of the old QL3 and QL5 it's the same with some modification to what is taught.  Myself and our WO asked your specific questions because it's fairly new still and constantly being revamped.  We were told that they still have some inspections in front of the bed a couple times a week but they decreased as the course went on.  On other days staff usually open the doors quick to make sure they're not a mess, beds made etc.  No kit layout.  We didn't ask about drill but I doubt it other than you march as a group when going for meals, except breakfast and dinner which is on your own time. and you form up in front of your barracks march to the school.  You will be marched by the course senior.  You won't usually see the staff until you get to the school.  It's apparently still just as relaxed as I remember.  I don't recall staff ever raising their voice once.  The goal there is to teach mbr's the knowledge they need for their trade. It's not about rerunning BMQ.  You shouldn't have any issues.  The only drill we had was close to the end of the course and that was just to practice for the graduation.  That was also extremely relaxed, no yelling or anything like that.

Also, forget the word "clerk".  There is no such thing in the CAF anymore.  It's HRA or FSA.  I correct people on it but I've seen some Sr. NCO's get pissed about it.


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## PuckChaser (28 Jun 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Also, forget the word "clerk".  There is no such thing in the CAF anymore.  It's HRA or FSA.  I correct people on it but I've seen some Sr. NCO's get pissed about it.



Its a colloquialism, probably not a hill to die on. I haven't been a "Sig Op" in 8 years and Rad Op hasn't existed in 20.


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## stellarpanther (28 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Its a colloquialism, probably not a hill to die on. I haven't been a "Sig Op" in 8 years and Rad Op hasn't existed in 20.



I agree but we have some people in our trade that are really serious about it. When I hear it from a customer, I usually just look up and say "you mean HRA", give a little laugh and get back to what I'm doing.


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## PuckChaser (29 Jun 2020)

At the end of the day, 99% of the Cpls that'll show up to an OR have no idea who to see. They'll eventually learn if people aren't being belligerent about the names. 

Cpl Bloggins: "I need to see a clerk about a claim." 
HRA: "Sure, let me grab one of our FSAs for you."

If the answer is "They're not clerks, they're FSAs." That Cpl will probably just think subj HRA is being a jerk and won't learn a damn thing.


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## stellarpanther (29 Jun 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> At the end of the day, 99% of the Cpls that'll show up to an OR have no idea who to see. They'll eventually learn if people aren't being belligerent about the names.
> 
> Cpl Bloggins: "I need to see a clerk about a claim."
> HRA: "Sure, let me grab one of our FSAs for you."
> ...



I've never heard anyone being belligerent about it and would quickly sort the HRA out if he worked for me.  I've heard a couple of them joke and ask what a clerk is but do so in a humorous manner.  For the most part I think the majority of people are using the correct title.  It's not the end of the world at least not to me if someone says clerk but we are trying to educate those who don't know or chose not to use the correct title.


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## Jarnhamar (29 Jun 2020)

[quote author=Navyynick]Need to know what kind of mindset to go into borden with 
[/quote]

The whole "we're not clerks" seems like a fairly significant part of the current mindset.


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## stellarpanther (29 Jun 2020)

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> The whole "we're not clerks" seems like a fairly significant part of the current mindset.



Not really, it should be nothing to think about.  If you apply for a new position, call it what it is and that's it.  Seems like some people don't like it that they are being asked to call the trade by it's proper name.


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## Navyynick (29 Jun 2020)

Wasnt aware that it was a frowned upon term, however it is nice to know considering I will be in be the trade, so I'll refrain from using the term "clerk". Thanks for input on life in borden.


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## BeyondTheNow (29 Jun 2020)

Navyynick said:
			
		

> Wasnt aware that it was a frowned upon term, however it is nice to know considering I will be in be the trade, so I'll refrain from using the term "clerk". Thanks for input on life in borden.



It’s not frowned upon unless one uses the word “clerk” in conjunction with “just a.” Then you’ll be in trouble 

The splitting of the trade is still relatively fresh, and it’s simply habit. I’ve heard CoCs at multiple locations tell their subordinates to “go see a clerk.”, or identify a specific individual. It’s what they know, and are used to.

You’ll still encounter it often. Many simply don’t know which trade handles what issue. (For example, it’s still a common misconception among lower ranks/newer pers that FSA deals with standard pay issues when that’s an HRA matter.)

As was mentioned earlier, a mbr generally goes to the OR wanting to see a “clerk.” They’ll then explain why, and they’ll be directed to whomever. The mbr differentiating/knowing who they need to see will come with time, and learning from past visits. 

That being said, where relevant paperwork is being completed, or in the context of applicable conversation, HRA/FSA mbrs won’t refer to themselves as clerks anymore, simply because it’s attached to “RMS Clerk”, which doesn’t exist. (You might hear it slip by those who were RMS for years, and are simply used to saying it, but in my experience they’ll generally correct themselves.)

Unfortunately, I don’t know anyone personally who’s completed the course at Borden in say, the last 6mths to a year. I have a few buddies who were/are posted there helping with COVID stuff though. They said everything was alright, minus travel restrictions and typical isolation orders. But that’s relaxed a lot now.

Otherwise, the last few people I know who completed it said it was fine—Much more relaxed compared to 3s for other trades, which I’m sure you knew.


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## ballz (30 Jun 2020)

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> As was mentioned earlier, a mbr generally goes to the OR wanting to see a “clerk.” They’ll then explain why, and they’ll be directed to whomever. The mbr differentiating/knowing who they need to see will come with time, and learning from past visits.



Until they switch units and find out a different unit has split the tasks between the trades unevenly  :nod:


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## BeyondTheNow (30 Jun 2020)

ballz said:
			
		

> Until they switch units and find out a different unit has split the tasks between the trades unevenly  :nod:



Haha, this is true. 

NNick: *Technically* there’s supposed to be very distinct lines between FSA & HRA and who is supposed to be managing/initiating/completing what. But yea, depending on where you are there might be varying degrees of overlap. Both trades are in the red (or HRA might still be in the yellow...I haven’t checked in quite a while.) Many units are understaffed. I perform duties of both as needed. 

That being said, as more and more (formerly RMS Clerks) release—who knew functions of both, because it was one trade—it’s easy for many to fill in where/as needed. The new pers coming in won’t have that advantage, at least not as easily. Sure there are some training elements that cover both trades, but not to the same extent—at least that’s what I’ve been told. Someone else will have to offer more details. I haven’t looked thoroughly at TPs for HRA/FSA trade qual since the split. I was more familiar with the RMS format.


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## stellarpanther (30 Jun 2020)

Believe it or not they actually defined what duties are assigned to each trade.  The problem however, is that some units have been saying we're short staffed and doing the other trades job.  As of about 6 months or so ago, I've heard access to certain programs to anyone outside of that trade is being denied.  I;m not positive but I think the Reserves are still working under the old rules.  Sr. Leadership is trying to make it work but as long as some units keep on doing the work of the other trade, nothing will completely change.


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## ballz (1 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Believe it or not they actually defined what duties are assigned to each trade.



Indeed, every trade has a Master Task List for which DPGR is responsible for. There were two the main problems for the FSA side when they did the split, one was that those who are at senior ranks don't have the requisite competencies to actually deduce what an FSA is supposed to be doing. The other being that they focused completely on the RMS Clerk trade tasks, and didn't consider the large amount of finance that the supply tech trade had taken on since the amalgamation of the finance and admin trades. As a result, we have FSAs who are supposed to be our financial (accounting) experts being everyone's personal secretary doing everyone's personal admin for them, such as filling out their travel requests, arranging their travel, booking their flights, and doing their claim for them. Meanwhile, the warehouse personnel are paying their own invoices, meaning 80-90% of the money getting spent in a unit never goes through an FSA.



			
				stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Sr. Leadership is trying to make it work but as long as some units keep on doing the work of the other trade, nothing will completely change.



I'd like to know who those senior leaders are. What I've observed is a complete absence of senior leadership on this issue, leaving a vacuum where positive direction should exist, which results in everyone trying to make up their direction given the complete absence of any.


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## stellarpanther (1 Jul 2020)

What shouldn't be happening is HRA/FSA MWO's or WO's in some cases getting together to make their own arrangements as to who will do what tasks or having an FSA MWO saying to the HRA MWO that we are so short staffed that we can't keep up so the HRA's with a couple extra bodies start taking on some FSA duties.  If clothing stores had a shortage, they wouldn't make a deal with the an HRA section to have a couple HRA's start doing supply tasks.
you
Edit to say: My son just read what I said above and is saying that in a Reserve unit they would.  They do all kinds of stupid stuff like that according to him.  Sometimes he says it's hard to remember what your trade is when you go in on a Thursday night.


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## Good2Golf (1 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> Edit to say: My son just read what I said above and is saying that in a Reserve unit they would.  They do all kinds of stupid stuff like that according to him.  Sometimes he says it's hard to remember what your trade is when you go in on a Thursday night.



The proper term to be used is MOSID. 

Trade is an old term that was eliminated as it (and Occupation for officers) represented inappropriately the difference between NCM occupational capability requirements and those of officers.  It would be like someone calling an ACSO a Navigator, or an HRA or FSA a clerk...


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## stellarpanther (1 Jul 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The proper term to be used is MOSID.
> 
> Trade is an old term that was eliminated as it (and Occupation for officers) represented inappropriately the difference between NCM occupational capability requirements and those of officers.  It would be like someone calling an ACSO a Navigator, or an HRA or FSA a clerk...



Thanks for correcting me, I never knew we didn't use the term "trade' anymore. i'll mention when I'm in next because I still see it on official documents from time to time and no one is catching that.


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## Good2Golf (1 Jul 2020)

Don’t get me wrong, people still use it, but it’s not correct.


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## dangerboy (1 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> What shouldn't be happening is HRA/FSA MWO's or WO's in some cases getting together to make their own arrangements as to who will do what tasks or having an FSA MWO saying to the HRA MWO that we are so short staffed that we can't keep up so the HRA's with a couple extra bodies start taking on some FSA duties.  If clothing stores had a shortage, they wouldn't make a deal with the an HRA section to have a couple HRA's start doing supply tasks.
> you
> Edit to say: My son just read what I said above and is saying that in a Reserve unit they would.  They do all kinds of stupid stuff like that according to him.  Sometimes he says it's hard to remember what your trade is when you go in on a Thursday night.



It happens in the regular force unit also. I have seen Infantry guys assigned to the Orderly room to assist the clerks, HRAs/FSAs. They might be just doing the easier tasks, photocopying, filing that sort of stuff leaving the qualified people to do the more important stuff. If they were not flexible then the troops admin would suffer and that is not acceptable.


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## SeaKingTacco (1 Jul 2020)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> It happens in the regular force unit also. I have seen Infantry guys assigned to the Orderly room to assist the clerks, HRAs/FSAs. They might be just doing the easier tasks, photocopying, filing that sort of stuff leaving the qualified people to do the more important stuff. If they were not flexible then the troops admin would suffer and that is not acceptable.



I’ve seen aircrew assigned to the SOR to help with administration, when we were short of HRAs (which was almost always).  

It is the military- you do the job that needs doing.


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## stellarpanther (1 Jul 2020)

For years CFSU(O) employed ULO students to do things like PA thngs to Pers Files or but the Pers Files on the shelves etc.  I've never seen one doing any actual HRA/FSA work.  I do hear about that happening in Reserve unit.  My buddy told me about one unit who had a Sup Tech filling in and doing the work of an HRA/FSA.  Apparently there were a lot of mistakes made and a lot of claim recoveries which pissed off a lot of people.

The reason we still have MOSID's (trades) in the red is because people do what needs to be done including working though their lunch, breaks etc, some staying overtime, until they are noticed and told to go home.  One of the former CWO's of CFSU(O) once told the clerks to stop doing that because as bad as it is to say it, not getting the work done is the only the numbers will increase.  During the same meeting, he told the WO and Sgt's to stop volunteering to accept work and then giving it to the clerks to complete.  It was an interesting meeting. Some people posted to the NCR may notice that things can sometimes take a little while to get done.  That's because the troops have been told to stop breaking their backs, take their breaks etc which is how all units need to do things.


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## BeyondTheNow (1 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> For years CFSU(O) employed ULO students to do things like PA thngs to Pers Files or but the Pers Files on the shelves etc.  I've never seen one doing any actual HRA/FSA work.  I do hear about that happening in Reserve unit.  My buddy told me about one unit who had a Sup Tech filling in and doing the work of an HRA/FSA.  Apparently there were a lot of mistakes made and a lot of claim recoveries which pissed off a lot of people.
> 
> The reason we still have MOSID's (trades) in the red is because people do what needs to be done including working though their lunch, breaks etc, some staying overtime, until they are noticed and told to go home.  One of the former CWO's of CFSU(O) once told the clerks to stop doing that because as bad as it is to say it, not getting the work done is the only the numbers will increase.  During the same meeting, he told the WO and Sgt's to stop volunteering to accept work and then giving it to the clerks to complete.  It was an interesting meeting. Some people posted to the NCR may notice that things can sometimes take a little while to get done.  That's because the troops have been told to stop breaking their backs, take their breaks etc which is how all units need to do things.



Then that’s a quality-of-training/proper oversight issue. Several PRes and RegF units have pers working out of trade for any number of reasons at that time. (MELs, shortage, etc.) I have personal experience with this. 

They need to be taught properly and for the first while, as inconvenient as it may be—yes, it can slow things down, but their work needs to be double-checked. Especially where OR tasks are concerned. Unfortunately, in some locations people just get thrown into things. Sometimes it’s unavoidable. But that being said, there’s also a bit of onus on the individual to be able to recognize when they’re unsure about something and to ask in order to save work later. 

But yes. I’ve noted in some situations people will just moan and complain instead of addressing the matter directly before it gets out of hand. (ie there’s a pile of claims or something sitting on someone’s desk which need to be redone.)


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## stellarpanther (1 Jul 2020)

When I heard about the Sup Clerk working as an HRA/FSA and I'm saying both because he was apparently doing the work of both.  I should also mention that he had been in that position for almost 2 years as class B.  My question was why was the Class B position not posted so someone outside that unit could potentially apply for it.  I'm sure there are several qualified HRA/FSA's that are near the end of their careers and would gladly switch over to the Res for their last couple years.  We see people doing that all the time.


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## PuckChaser (1 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> When I heard about the Sup Clerk working as an HRA/FSA and I'm saying both because he was apparently doing the work of both.  I should also mention that he had been in that position for almost 2 years as class B.  My question was why was the Class B position not posted so someone outside that unit could potentially apply for it.  I'm sure there are several qualified HRA/FSA's that are near the end of their careers and would gladly switch over to the Res for their last couple years.  We see people doing that all the time.



Have you been around the PRes system a while? There's a lot of nepotism and shady stuff that goes into Permanent Cl B contracts...


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## dapaterson (1 Jul 2020)

I'd suggest you review CMP Instruction 20/04 (former ADM HR Mil instruction 20/04, which replaced ADM Per instruction 2/93).  In fact, MOSID mismatch is one of the last resorts for filling full-time positions.

Simply put, the O&E of the Army reserve is not structured to generate the number of full-time FSA and HRA the organization wants, so the gaps are systemic.  Even the occasional Reg F member hopping across for a last few years does not mitigate the problem.  As well, the allocation of positions is disjointed, imbalanced, and insufficient; there are larger scopes of duty within a Res F unit than a Reg F unit.  Most tasks handled by the base / support unit in the Reg F are instead downloaded to the unit level in the Res F, resulting in wildly variable quality of work and frequent delays.  That, in turn, contributes to attrition.  In the NCR particularly, where NDHQ has money (but also in any location with large Reg F bases) full-time Reservists are happy to jump to less frantic positions where the scope of duties isn't enrolments Mondays, pay input Tuesdays, pers file maintenance Wednesdays, releases Thursdays, support to in house courses Friday, and repeat.

TL;DR Army Reserve admin is a hot mess.


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## BeyondTheNow (1 Jul 2020)

stellarpanther said:
			
		

> When I heard about the Sup Clerk working as an HRA/FSA and I'm saying both because he was apparently doing the work of both.  I should also mention that he had been in that position for almost 2 years as class B.  My question was why was the Class B position not posted so someone outside that unit could potentially apply for it.  I'm sure there are several qualified HRA/FSA's that are near the end of their careers and would gladly switch over to the Res for their last couple years.  We see people doing that all the time.



Well, it’s still a quality-of-training/proper oversight issue.

I won’t speak to why a unit did/does what it did/does. I’m not working there and any opinion would be pure speculation. But where my unit is concerned, it’s tough to fill Cl Bs in the OR. We’ve had multiple positions posted over the last 4-5yrs and there wasn’t much interest—none in some cases. They’ve even tried to up the ante in a few instances, and still no bites for trade qualified pers of whatever rank required at the time. Some feel location within our Bgd is more than likely one of the main issues.


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## stellarpanther (1 Jul 2020)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Have you been around the PRes system a while? There's a lot of nepotism and shady stuff that goes into Permanent Cl B contracts...



I know very little about the PRes system.  I did know a guy who was RSS at one of the units here for a while and he used to say he was shocked to see some of the stuff going on. All he would tell me is they don't always play by the rules and he once got in shit for reporting something.  He was able to get his posting cut short and returned to a Reg Force unit.


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## medicineman (3 Jul 2020)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The proper term to be used is MOSID.
> 
> Trade is an old term that was eliminated as it (and Occupation for officers) represented inappropriately the difference between NCM occupational capability requirements and those of officers.  It would be like someone calling an ACSO a Navigator, or an HRA or FSA a clerk...



And here I thought it was because the Badges and Buttons Brigade wanted to sound more 'Merican, to go with all the crap ego bling stuff they're putting on the combat uniforms.

I guess it was worth getting out of bed today  :nod:.

MM


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## ballz (5 Jul 2020)

dangerboy said:
			
		

> It happens in the regular force unit also. I have seen Infantry guys assigned to the Orderly room to assist the clerks, HRAs/FSAs. They might be just doing the easier tasks, photocopying, filing that sort of stuff leaving the qualified people to do the more important stuff.



We've had troopers, gunners, infanteers, and sappers this year completing and/or processing ITAs, booking travel in HRG, initiating claims, exercising Sect 32, etc. This is, of course, personal admin (except for Sect 32... that's a management task) and not an "FSA" task, but some think that *is* the "important stuff" that requires a special qualification, and that's a big issue.

We've also had one unit make the change to having the ITA completed by and submitted by the member and then approved by the appropriate authority before it ever comes to the FSA cell. The sky did not fall as many promised it would.



			
				dangerboy said:
			
		

> If they were not flexible then the troops admin would suffer and that is not acceptable.





			
				SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> I’ve seen aircrew assigned to the SOR to help with administration, when we were short of HRAs (which was almost always).
> 
> It is the military- you do the job that needs doing.



Yup. With the way we were pillaged for FSAs this year by CJOC, we'd never have been able to do it. However, the point stellarpanther makes is valid in that you shouldn't be using HRAs / FSAs to do the same work. Why would you try and fill holes in one red trade with people from another red trade? Using out-of-battle personnel makes sense, using an FSA to do HRA tasks just makes the problem worse.


Besides, let's not buy into our own BS that our initial MOSID training that gets someone to OFP is some irreplaceable thing. I'd take 3 months of OJT over 3 months at CFTLC on any day of the week. What FSAs should have over-and-above infanteers that should really matter is experience, but with such a young trade, where an MWO has only been an FSA for 4 years, the gap is not that large.


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