# New DEU ?!



## WLSC (4 Feb 2012)

Hi every one, I heard a bizare rumour yesterday for the desiner word in Montréal.  The army ask for a new DEU with 2 different one.  Officers and noncom !!  How different ?  Dont know.  Please, tell me it's a rumour.  We have better thing to do than this.


----------



## armyvern (4 Feb 2012)

First I hear of it.


----------



## ModlrMike (4 Feb 2012)

Highly unlikely.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (4 Feb 2012)

FusMR said:
			
		

> Please, tell me it's a rumour.



Ok.

_Relax, it is just a rumour._


----------



## McG (4 Feb 2012)

I would not mind a better looking uniform, but I can think of many better places in which to invest the money and effort.

The good news is that our "what is Canada buying" threads have not picked up any hint on Merx (or, what used to be called Merx):
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103577/post-1094324.html#msg1094324
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103911/post-1101091.html#msg1101091
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/104320/post-1109569.html#msg1109569
That doesn't mean there is nothing simmering in the background still fighting its way toward approval, but it does suggest a change is not immanent.


----------



## armyvern (4 Feb 2012)

MCG said:
			
		

> I would not mind a better looking uniform, but I can think of many better places in which to invest the money and effort.
> 
> The good news is that our "what is Canada buying" threads have not picked up any hint on Merx (or, what used to be called Merx):
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/103577/post-1094324.html#msg1094324
> ...



Well, if they bring back our old tan monstrosities or something akin to them ... this girl is going Navy.


----------



## Pusser (4 Feb 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, if they bring back our old tan monstrosities or something akin to them ... this girl is going Navy.



Such would be the natural order of things.  ;D

In all seriousness though, I have heard discussion of changes to buttons and bows, but nothing of a full re-design of the actual uniform.


----------



## jollyjacktar (4 Feb 2012)

Wasn't there a rumor some time ago of the blue coloured Patrol dress uniform making a comeback?  I'm sure there are those Armoured folks out there who crave some chain mail on their shoulders...


----------



## armyvern (4 Feb 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Such would be the natural order of things.  ;D
> 
> In all seriousness though, I have heard discussion of changes to buttons and bows, but nothing of a full re-design of the actual uniform.



I too have heard movement on the buttons and bows front ... such would seem to be the natural progression of name changes.

I think though, that it is extremely important that the RCN get back their little elephant slipper hats before the Army changes a thing.


----------



## armyvern (4 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Wasn't there a rumor some time ago of the blue coloured Patrol dress uniform making a comeback?  I'm sure there are those Armoured folks out there who crave some chain mail on their shoulders...



Yeah, I live with one of those Armoured guys; he too is retarded and craves frontiersman status.


----------



## Pusser (4 Feb 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I too have heard movement on the buttons and bows front ... such would seem to be the natural progression of name changes.
> 
> I think though, that it is extremely important that the RCN get back their little elephant slipper hats before the Army changes a thing.



Actually, I would say they're more like elephant sneakers.   And I'm all for it!  I'd love to see our sailors in sailor suits (the girls love them - this, I know  :nod


----------



## McG (4 Feb 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Well, if they bring back our old tan monstrosities or something akin to them ... this girl is going Navy.


I hope not.  If we are going to missplace our efforts into getting a new uniform, then it should resultin in something comparable to the USMC Service Uniform and the British Army Service Dress.



			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> In all seriousness though, I have heard discussion of changes to buttons and bows, but nothing of a full re-design of the actual uniform.


With the arrival of the executive curl and name changes for RCAF, RCN and the Canadian Army, we've opened the box on disscussions of turning back the clock on just about anything purely aesthetic.  There are discussion happening about going back to "traditional" army uniforms, reverting to pre-unification rank structures, re-introducing pips & crowns, re-naming various Army corps/branches, etc, etc, etc.

Hopefully, most of these ideas stop as nothing more than discussions.  We really don't need to waste the effort - our finincial and human resources can be put to better use (especially now when funding is being compressed and Civ & PRes manpower is being reduced).


----------



## jollyjacktar (4 Feb 2012)

Pusser, I agree.  I don't like looking like an Officer (no offense), and peak caps should only be for Chiefs and Officers.  Have had some ratings who would prefer the beret over a peak cap as there is no way bell bottoms are ever coming back.

MGC agree even further.  We are flat assed broke and can't afford foolishness on fluff and feathers at this time.


----------



## brihard (4 Feb 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I think though, that it is extremely important that the RCN get back their little elephant slipper hats before the Army changes a thing.



If the Navy want elephant slippers they can take them form the cold, dead hands of the Highlanders.  iper:


----------



## BDTyre (4 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Wasn't there a rumor some time ago of the blue coloured Patrol dress uniform making a comeback?  I'm sure there are those Armoured folks out there who crave some chain mail on their shoulders...



I've heard a similar rumour that my regiment might be bringing back our blue jackets (aking to what the cadets wear), but it is just a rumour. We are trying to bring back a better TOS instead of the current beretmorals that are around, but that plan seems to have hit a snag.


----------



## Pusser (4 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Pusser, I agree.  I don't like looking like an Officer (no offense), and peak caps should only be for Chiefs and Officers.  Have had some ratings who would prefer the beret over a peak cap as there is no way bell bottoms are ever coming back.
> 
> MGC agree even further.  We are flat assed broke and can't afford foolishness on fluff and feathers at this time.



Sorry, I can't agree on the beret thing.  For the Navy at least, I think the beret has a place on working rigs, but no place at all in service dress.  It's far too informal and in my view, unprofessional.  I cringe whenever I see naval folks in berets in any form of service dress.  Notwithstanding that the regulations allow it, I'm against it and refuse to follow suit.  When I fly on TD, I find a way to pack my peaked cap.  The same thing goes for the toque - a fantastic piece of operational kit, but one with no place in service dress.  I have my new Yukon cap and it's wonderful!

When I'm talking about sailor suits, I mean the whole thing - bell-bottoms (more like flared - even the RN has dropped bell-bottoms), gunshirts and jumpers with collars.  I agree that it's unlikely we'll ever see that again, but then again, if you'd told me three years ago that the executive curl and RCN would return, I would have thought you crazy then too.

The cost of these changes is not as much as one would think sometimes.  Pips and crowns for the Army would actually save money.  The cost of new rank badges upon promotion would be limited to a new pin that the officer could put on his uniform him/herself.  This is considerably less expensive than the current practice of having to replace the braid on the cuff (sleeve requires a tailor to take it apart, remove old braid, sewn on new braid and then put sleeve back together).


----------



## jollyjacktar (4 Feb 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Sorry, I can't agree on the beret thing.  For the Navy at least, I think the beret has a place on working rigs, but no place at all in service dress.  It's far too informal and in my view, unprofessional.  I cringe whenever I see naval folks in berets in any form of service dress.  Notwithstanding that the regulations allow it, I'm against it and refuse to follow suit.


Well you're an Officer, you need a peak cap and are welcome to it.  I hate mine with a passion and only wear it full rigged if I can help it.  Otherwise it's beret, more practical and comfortable.  The peak cap gives me a roaring headache if I wear it too long.  The only good thing I'll say about it is it's only 30 points to replace.


			
				Pusser said:
			
		

> When I'm talking about sailor suits, I mean the whole thing - bell-bottoms (more like flared - even the RN has dropped bell-bottoms), gunshirts and jumpers with collars.  I agree that it's unlikely we'll ever see that again, but then again, if you'd told me three years ago that the executive curl and RCN would return, I would have thought you crazy then too.


That's what I was talking about as well.  I have made my views well known in other threads of wishing for the square rig again, there are others like me out there but not enough to make a difference.  I don't like dressing like an officer, the DEU looks great for you guys and should be for you guys and Chiefs.  But it is what it is and I have to wear what the regulations tell me, nothing says I have to like it.


----------



## startbutton (4 Feb 2012)

Sorry, I can't agree on the beret thing.  For the Navy at least, I think the beret has a place on working rigs, but no place at all in service dress.  It's far too informal and in my view, unprofessional.  I cringe whenever I see naval folks in berets in any form of service dress.  Notwithstanding that the regulations allow it, I'm against it and refuse to follow suit.  When I fly on TD, I find a way to pack my peaked cap.  The same thing goes for the toque - a fantastic piece of operational kit, but one with no place in service dress.  I have my new Yukon cap and it's wonderful!

When I'm talking about sailor suits, I mean the whole thing - bell-bottoms (more like flared - even the RN has dropped bell-bottoms), gunshirts and jumpers with collars.  I agree that it's unlikely we'll ever see that again, but then again, if you'd told me three years ago that the executive curl and RCN would return, I would have thought you crazy then too.

The cost of these changes is not as much as one would think sometimes.  Pips and crowns for the Army would actually save money.  The cost of new rank badges upon promotion would be limited to a new pin that the officer could put on his uniform him/herself.  This is considerably less expensive than the current practice of having to replace the braid on the cuff (sleeve requires a tailor to take it apart, remove old braid, sewn on new braid and then put sleeve back together).
[/quote]


As a navy guy how do feel about the professional look of the baseball cap all the navy pers seem to wearing even when not on ship?


----------



## Snakedoc (4 Feb 2012)

startbutton said:
			
		

> As a navy guy how do feel about the professional look of the baseball cap all the navy pers seem to wearing even when not on ship?



I think it's great.  There is no reason why I should have to change my head dress just to go from the ship to ashore.  It's part of our operational dress and I think it looks professional.  Navy pers 'seem to be wearing even when not on ship' because they are, it's authorized, and it's practical.


----------



## armyvern (4 Feb 2012)

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> I think it's great.  There is no reason why I should have to change my head dress just to go from the ship to ashore.  It's part of our operational dress and I think it looks professional.  Navy pers 'seem to be wearing even when not on ship' because they are, it's authorized, and it's practical.



Realize that it`s allowed.

His query was to someone who thought the berets looked unprofessional. Ergo the question to that pers as to whether he thought the ballcaps looked unprofessional as well.

I`m interested in his answer.


What is authorized and what `looks professional`may not, necessarily, be the same thing in a whole lot of people`s eyes (mine too, the ballcaps do not even hint at professional looking for me).


----------



## jollyjacktar (4 Feb 2012)

startbutton said:
			
		

> As a navy guy how do feel about the professional look of the baseball cap all the navy pers seem to wearing even when not on ship?


From this Navy guy.  I wear the ball cap when I must.  I love going to sea as the moment we slip my hat goes in my locker never to be seen until we are back alongside.  Personally I'm not a hat kind of guy and only wear one because I have to.  As operational dress it's OK and practical but not as professional looking.  Operational dress should be practical vs professional if that is the standard you wish to gauge my opinion by.  When I'm off the ship, I wear my beret instead of the ball cap unlike most others.  And seeing as my present ship is at ISI, I have never worn my new ball cap.


----------



## q_1966 (4 Feb 2012)

For the RCN, bring back the 8 button Jacket for Officers, 6 for the C&PO's, Peak Caps for Officers and CPOs 
wingtip collars circa 1910 as well

WWII era Square rig made of the original heavy dark blue serge for the dress uniform (if not bell bottoms than a wide cut on the leg) so it can be rolled up and stored rather than hang on a coat hanger in a bag (Post war Square Rig was notorious for that)

Working Dress: Current NCD's for all with option of Beret or Ball Cap depending on the occasion

Oh and change the rank of Naval Cadet to Midshipman

I was actually quite happy with the army uniform, but i'm all for the pips and crowns, maybe red tabs.
They should bring back the RCAF Officer Ranks as well.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (4 Feb 2012)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> They should bring back the RCAF Officer Ranks as well.



Why not all pre-unification RCAF ranks??


Psttttt - it IS the RCAF again...so todays ranks are actual "RCAF" ranks technically


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Feb 2012)

Things should be left alone. The uniforms we have are fine.


----------



## q_1966 (4 Feb 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Why not all pre-unification RCAF ranks??
> Psttttt - it IS the RCAF again...so todays ranks are actual "RCAF" ranks technically



Yes your right, pre unification Officer and NCM RCAF ranks.

and the Black Watch should become a regular force unit once again :warstory:


----------



## aesop081 (4 Feb 2012)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> Yes your right, pre unification Officer and NCM RCAF ranks.



No thanks. I like "Warrant Officer" and have no desire to be a "Flight Sergeant".


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Wasn't there a rumor some time ago of the blue coloured Patrol dress uniform making a comeback?  I'm sure there are those Armoured folks out there who crave some chain mail on their shoulders...



We still have it and wear it. Typically, I wear my DEU once a year, at the Men's Christmas Dinner. Any other time they would be appropriate, I wear Patrols.


----------



## jollyjacktar (4 Feb 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> We still have it and wear it. Typically, I wear my DEU once a year, at the Men's Christmas Dinner. Any other time they would be appropriate, I wear Patrols.


There you go that answers my question.  They're better looking I think but then I'm old fashioned, fashion wise.


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Feb 2012)

The good idea fairy is out and about isn't it?  :rage:

It seems we can replace dress uniforms almost on a whim, but to get a decent field rain suit took over ten years.

 :2c:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (4 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> There you go that answers my question.  They're better looking I think but then I'm old fashioned, fashion wise.



They _are_ chick magnets 8)


----------



## jollyjacktar (4 Feb 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> The good idea fairy is out and about isn't it?  :rage:
> 
> It seems we can replace dress uniforms almost on a whim, but to get a decent field rain suit took over ten years.
> 
> :2c:


Who're you call'n a fairy?


----------



## OldSolduer (4 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Who're you call'n a fairy?



You said "whore"


----------



## Pusser (4 Feb 2012)

startbutton said:
			
		

> As a navy guy how do feel about the professional look of the baseball cap all the navy pers seem to wearing even when not on ship?



I don't have a problem with ball caps with NCDs.  It's a practical piece of kit and now that they are standardized across the Fleet, they actually look pretty good, provided they are clean and well kept.  The fact that it has the ship's name on it is, alas, the closest I fear we will ever get to cap tallies again.

For the record, I do not have an issue with berets in general.  I just don't think that should be worn with service dress, particularly by sailors.  There is a time and place for everything.  I also have to admit that I'm a little disappointed that the Army has gone with berets only, but I suppose that's their prerogative.  However, could folks at least not wear a clean, good-looking one on parade, instead of the same grease-stained, faded and threadbare one they wear with combats?


----------



## dapaterson (4 Feb 2012)

Time to fix many of the absurd, antiquated notions in the dress manual.

(1)  If the Navy wishes to wear forage caps, then forage caps for all - abolish the bowler for women.

(2)  If the world does not end when women wear a single stud in each ear, the world will similarly not end if we permit men the same.

(3)  Claiming "history" as the reason for sailors (not at sea), pioneers and EME technicians to wear beards is absurd.  Either all may wear a beard (safety situation dependent) or none.


----------



## Tow Tripod (5 Feb 2012)

Ummm, We haven't had Pioneers in the Infantry since 2000ish. Remember when we had a Combat Support company? I guess not??

Pioneer platoon, We are best of all!
Were all made of guts and ALCOHOL!!


----------



## dapaterson (5 Feb 2012)

Tow Tripod said:
			
		

> Ummm, We haven't had Pioneers in the Infantry since 2000ish. Remember when we had a Combat Support company? I guess not??
> 
> Pioneer platoon, We are best of all!
> Were all made of guts and ALCOHOL!!



Dress regs still (as I recall) refer to pioneers.  (That they are not up to date is another issue...)


----------



## startbutton (5 Feb 2012)

Since when are EME techs allowed to grow beards as part of history? Never heard that one, and as for the navy the ones I know say they can only grow a beard  while posted to a ship and with COs permission.


----------



## q_1966 (5 Feb 2012)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> Time to fix many of the absurd, antiquated notions in the dress manual.
> (1)  If the Navy wishes to wear forage caps, then forage caps for all - abolish the bowler for women.
> me.
> (2)  If the world does not end when women wear a single stud in each ear, the world will similarly not end if we permit men the same
> (3)  Claiming "history" as the reason for sailors (not at sea), pioneers and EME technicians to wear beards is absurd.  Either all may wear a beard (safety situation dependent) or none.



1. I like the tri-corn like hats the women wear, certainly looks better than the bowlers worn in the 80s

2. Earrings at one point were allowed in the RN 
"The Seaman’s practice of wearing earrings dates from the reign of Queen Elizabeth I (1558-1603), not so much in loyalty to the queen as to satisfy a fisherman’s old superstition that pierced ears would improve their eyesight and make them more lively. The occasional earring, of plain yellow gold, is still seen in the Royal Navy, worn usually on the left ear lobe only." most likely apply to the 17th and 18th Century
http://www.thedearsurprise.com/?p=1888
somewhere along the line pearls became the navy tradition for females or the usual gold studs.

3. Not everyone can grow facial hair, and i'm certain the all or none policy has never applied, nor should it to beards in the navy. Maybe everyone should shave there head bald because a few are bald or have a receding hairline.



			
				startbutton said:
			
		

> and as for the navy the ones I know say they can only grow a beard  while posted to a ship and with COs permission.


 
Navy use to be allowed to grow beards and during beard growing competitions, (Army and Airforce as well) mind you this was at sea, to be clean shaven or a full beard (for Navy only) prior to going ashore with the Coxn standing at the brow. Up until a few years ago, 2009? thats when they switched to SCBA which required a full seal, Chemox you could get away with it. so now its medical chit or shore postings and mustache growing competitions at sea to see who has the best battlestache. The tradition died a little bit more that day. 

A tidbit to add on while I was searching for the earings bit.
"In the United States Navy officers and men coming aboard face aft and salute their ensign whereas we salute the ship (straight ahead, looking athwartship)."(At right angles to the centre line of the ship)
http://www.hmsrichmond.org/avast/customs.htm


----------



## lethalLemon (5 Feb 2012)

Might as well just give the Army forage caps again. Then we can all look like the GGH(F)Gs  

Don't get me started on BOOTS, CSA GRADE 1, SAFETY, ANKLE, BLACK... I do not enjoy them, the old style ankle (parade) boot was much superior. Some will argue that the current are more comfortable, blah, blah, blah; they are not anymore comfortable than the old pattern. Are other units using the current (new) monstrosities as parade boots? I think I still wore the old ones too, but then again, I don't remember the last time I wore a full dress uniform.


----------



## Scott (5 Feb 2012)

Gigantic professional peeve of mine: if your safety standards reference CSA or NFPA for the use of SA/SCBA and/or full/half mask respirators (cartridge/canister type) then you are mandated BY LAW to be clean shaven at all times that you may be required to don this equipment.

Tradition be damned when it comes to aspects of health and safety, sorry kids. I know it doesn't always make sense or look cool, but it's there, like it or lump it.

Absurdity is trying to argue against the above...and believe me, I have been on the winning side of the argument for over ten years now.


----------



## q_1966 (5 Feb 2012)

Who came up with the idea that parade boots have to be CSA grade anyway even then the toecap is what... plastic, maybe its to protect you when your lady friend stomps on your foot with her high heel because your a little tipsy and might of been hitting on her the whole night at the strip....ahem legion while going on a riggers run.


----------



## Rifleman62 (5 Feb 2012)

What do you sailors think of the new USN uniform, especially the headdress, which appears to be a similar style to the USMC headdress?


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Feb 2012)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> Might as well just give the Army forage caps again. Then we can all look like the GGH(F)Gs
> 
> Don't get me started on BOOTS, CSA GRADE 1, SAFETY, ANKLE, BLACK... I do not enjoy them, the old style ankle (parade) boot was much superior. Some will argue that the current are more comfortable, blah, blah, blah; they are not anymore comfortable than the old pattern. Are other units using the current (new) monstrosities as parade boots? I think I still wore the old ones too, but then again, I don't remember the last time I wore a full dress uniform.



Those CSA ankle boots have now been replaced on the Logistik website by newer ankle boots.

I ordered and received mine.  I haven't put the polish to them yet, but I can say they are EXTREMELY light and IMO, comfortable (I've worn them to break the leather in, but havent' done a parade in them yet so that opinion may change).

FWIW, my favorite ankle boots were the old old style ones circa '89 I was issued.  Double-soled and clickered by the cobbler in Cornwallis, THOSE were ankle boots.  Sadly, mine had to be put down a few years ago.


----------



## DexOlesa (5 Feb 2012)

Anyone have a picture of those new ankle boots? They weren't up before I got out 4 months ago.


----------



## fraserdw (5 Feb 2012)

I miss my Cornwallis Ankle boots, they were double soled and clickered.  I wish officers could wear em I love to have a set again.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (5 Feb 2012)

DexOlesa said:
			
		

> Anyone have a picture of those new ankle boots? They weren't up before I got out 4 months ago.



Right from the Logistik site itself.


----------



## lethalLemon (5 Feb 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Those CSA ankle boots have now been replaced on the Logistik website by newer ankle boots.
> 
> I ordered and received mine.  I haven't put the polish to them yet, but I can say they are EXTREMELY light and IMO, comfortable (I've worn them to break the leather in, but havent' done a parade in them yet so that opinion may change).
> 
> FWIW, my favorite ankle boots were the old old style ones circa '89 I was issued.  Double-soled and clickered by the cobbler in Cornwallis, THOSE were ankle boots.  Sadly, mine had to be put down a few years ago.



I have a 89 style ankle boot from my dad after he retired. They are very, very amazing. The CSA boot and this new boot are identical and ugly. I don't understand why they changed the design


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Feb 2012)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> I have a 89 style ankle boot from my dad after he retired. They are very, very amazing. The CSA boot and this new boot are identical and ugly. I don't understand why they changed the design



Lowest bidder within spec.


----------



## q_1966 (5 Feb 2012)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Right from the Logistik site itself.



So is the new boot the same as the old one or have less of a toe (a hybrid between the two)?


----------



## Nfld Sapper (5 Feb 2012)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> So is the new boot the same as the old one or have less of a toe?



Does it really matter?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (5 Feb 2012)

Get Nautical said:
			
		

> So is the new boot the same as the old one or have less of a toe?



If it had less of a toe, wouldn't it be a sandal, instead of a boot?


----------



## q_1966 (5 Feb 2012)

personally I like the convertible steel toe idea on sea boots where you can expose your toesies and air them out


----------



## jollyjacktar (5 Feb 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> What do you sailors think of the new USN uniform, especially the headdress, which appears to be a similar style to the USMC headdress?


On my last deployment we had some USN personnel on board who were wearing it.  Frankly it did not look that bad, a much better pattern to my eyes than the RAN pattern of blotches.  There were other USN personnel who were wearing their coveralls, which have a belt (looks silly).  Of the two, the cammo honestly looked better.   :2c:


----------



## WLSC (5 Feb 2012)

Thanks for the original answers.  I can sleep well now !  :nod:


----------



## OldSolduer (5 Feb 2012)

Did someone miss a memo about the budget and savings? We turn in money every year, get our budget chopped and someone is wanting new DEU for the Army?

Someone needs a good Austin Powers karate chop.


----------



## FSTO (5 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> The peak cap gives me a roaring headache if I wear it too long.



I had that issue as well until I took out the plastic ring. Fits just fine and also gives you a Gunter Prien look as well.


----------



## jollyjacktar (6 Feb 2012)

My father was a museum curator at the end of his working career.  One of the artifacts I remember was a hat form.  It basically was a wooden oval which was cut in half with a screw system that would make the oval stretch.  This would shape a hat from the unnatural circle to a more head shape of an oval or sorts.  Wish I had one for my @#$%#@$% peak cap, but I'll try getting rid of the plastic ring.  Mind you, I doubt it'll make me look as cool as Gunter.


----------



## Rifleman62 (6 Feb 2012)

Instead of Gunter Prien, how about the artist C. Anthony Law of the 29th (Canadian) Motor Torpedo Boat Flotilla.

In the olden days of the Bush uniform, there were aluminum hat forms, a well as 51 pattern webbing aluminum ammo pouch and small pack forms.


----------



## jollyjacktar (6 Feb 2012)

Rifleman62 said:
			
		

> Instead of Gunter Prien, how about the artist C. Anthony Law of the 29th (Canadian) Motor Torpedo Boat Flotilla.


Even if I managed to look as cool as those guys, I'll wager my Cox'n would not agree.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (6 Feb 2012)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> I have a 89 style ankle boot from my dad after he retired. They are very, very amazing. The CSA boot and this new boot are identical and ugly. I don't understand why they changed the design



Well, from the Logistik UniCorp site:

•Finer-grain leather, giving the boot a more natural look and making it easier to shine
•Durable, high quality "Goodyear Welt" construction
•Improved sole, significantly lighter and more flexible than the predecessor; redesigned tread
•Soft toe boot (previous model had a steel toe cap).

It should be noted that the new Ankle Boot can no longer be worn to meet Safety Footwear requirements.

There is ALSO a new Men's Winter Boot.  Info again from Logistik Unicorp site:

DND continues to seek cost saving measures and improve the quality of the products being offered through Clothing Online. One approach is the removal of items showing very low usage after the initial issue. An example is the Men's Rubber Overboots: Survey results showed only 11% of 27,000 men surveyed actually wear the Overboots and that 68% would prefer to see them replaced by a Men's Winter Boot. Therefore by removing the item as an initial issue item we are capable of providing a better product for those who wear it as part of their daily dress during winter months.

About the new boot

Classic design with single slide-fastener

- Water-repellent leather

- Insulated for comfort: Front of boot and underfoot lined with wool; ankle with polar fleece

- High quality rubber sole provides excellent adhesion in winter conditions


Delivery/Additional Information

Delivery of orders is expected to begin in mid-December 2011.

It should also be noted that the Women's Winter boot will also now be issued as an optional item vice an initial issue item.


----------



## q_1966 (6 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> My father was a museum curator at the end of his working career.  One of the artifacts I remember was a hat form.  It basically was a wooden oval which was cut in half with a screw system that would make the oval stretch.  This would shape a hat from the unnatural circle to a more head shape of an oval or sorts.  Wish I had one for my @#$%#@$% peak cap, but I'll try getting rid of the plastic ring.  Mind you, I doubt it'll make me look as cool as Gunter.



Visit a Haberdasher, they should have one.


----------



## FSTO (6 Feb 2012)

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> Even if I managed to look as cool as those guys, I'll wager my Cox'n would not agree.



Haven't had a ring in my hat since Venture. Never had a coxn nor XO (and I have served with some real pusser ones!) say a word to me.


----------



## Pusser (7 Feb 2012)

FSTO said:
			
		

> Haven't had a ring in my hat since Venture. Never had a coxn nor XO (and I have served with some real pusser ones!) say a word to me.



Seeing as how the hat is made of plastic, it will hold it's form fairly well, so I really don't see the issue.  If someone wants to remove the ring, so what?  The only real advantage I've found with the ring is that it prevents the hat from getting crushed when you bang it on the deckhead.  I actually think I've avoided a few concussions that way  ;D.

I also don't see how removing the ring will improve the comfort, since it only shapes the crown and has no bearing on the part that sits on your head.  If we really want to improve the naval cap, I would say it would be better to adopt the USN design of a frame with a removable cloth cover that can be washed and/or replaced as necessary.  It would look better (i.e. easier to keep clean) and be lighter and breath better than the current foam-lined plastic thing.  I suggested this to the Maritime Clothing and Dress Committee a few years ago, but they didn't see the "need."  Perhaps they "need" to wear their plasic hats in the sun a little longer?  Or perhaps, they already have been?  :nod:


----------



## Good2Golf (7 Feb 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> ...When I'm talking about sailor suits, I mean the whole thing - bell-bottoms (more like flared - even the RN has dropped bell-bottoms), gunshirts and jumpers with collars.  I agree that it's unlikely we'll ever see that again, but then again, if you'd told me three years ago that the executive curl and RCN would return, I would have thought you crazy then too.



Is that what you folks would call "square rig"?

Yours aye,
G2G


----------



## Pusser (7 Feb 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Is that what you folks would call "square rig"?
> 
> Yours aye,
> G2G



Yes.  "Square rig" is the traditional sailor suit (what the USN calls "Cracker Jacks" from the picture on the Cracker Jack box).  It includes the seaman's cap (originally described as an officer's cap without brim/visor), a square-necked "gunshirt," jumper with collar, silk (scarf tied with tapes at the front), seaman's lanyard and bell-bottom trousers.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2012)

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> Is that what you folks would call "square rig"?
> 
> Yours aye,
> G2G



Maybe a pirate uniform for our Naval brothers?


----------



## armyvern (7 Feb 2012)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Maybe a pirate uniform for our Naval brothers?



With a mandatory eye patch and parrots for all!!


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Feb 2012)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> With a mandatory eye patch and parrots for all!!



ARGGGGHHHHH matey!!  >


----------



## my72jeep (7 Feb 2012)

Yes.  "Square rig" is the traditional sailor suit (what the USN calls "Cracker Jacks" from the picture on the Cracker Jack box).  It includes the seaman's cap (originally described as an officer's cap without brim/visor), a square-necked "gunshirt," jumper with collar, silk (scarf tied with tapes at the front), seaman's lanyard and bell-bottom trousers.

I don't want to be the bitch here but when I read this all I could think of was the Village people. Sorry.


----------



## quadrapiper (7 Feb 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> I also don't see how removing the ring will improve the comfort, since it only shapes the crown and has no bearing on the part that sits on your head.  If we really want to improve the naval cap, I would say it would be better to adopt the USN design of a frame with a removable cloth cover that can be washed and/or replaced as necessary.  It would look better (i.e. easier to keep clean) and be lighter and breath better than the current foam-lined plastic thing.  I suggested this to the Maritime Clothing and Dress Committee a few years ago, but they didn't see the "need."  Perhaps they "need" to wear their plasic hats in the sun a little longer?  Or perhaps, they already have been?  :nod:


The big comfort-improver is ripping out the foam and other associated crud, and cutting out most of the stuff around the inside of the cap - leaving only the padded segment. Not sure if all that was supposed to keep it warm in the winter, but all it does in the summer is soak up sweat. Not really amenable to cleaning, either. 

Only downside is the cap then develops a dent from your head - not noticeable when worn, but can be seen when it's off your head.

I've never looked closely at pre-unification white caps, but have the impression they're much more lightly built than the current item. 

Maybe it's time to bring back two caps? Warm blue wool for winter, lightweight white canvas (or whatever) for summer?


----------



## Staff Weenie (7 Feb 2012)

Yaaarrrrrrrrggghh

If the RCN gets pirate gear and lusty wenches to serve in the Wardroom, I'm switching over.  ;D


----------



## rotrhed (8 Feb 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Such would be the natural order of things.  ;D
> 
> In all seriousness though, I have heard discussion of changes to buttons and bows, but nothing of a full re-design of the actual uniform.



Any mention of what those changes might be, or which buttons and/or bows?  The funny thing with uniforms is that changes start with minor tinkering but usually take on a life of their own.  I'd be curious to hear what the dress empire might have in store.

I now return you to your navel-gazing....or is that naval-gazing?


----------



## PMedMoe (8 Feb 2012)

I just wish they'd give us Army types a freaking lightweight uniform as promised when they ditched the tans before they start thinking about making other changes.


----------



## q_1966 (8 Feb 2012)

Bring back the tricorn hat, the straw boater for junior sailor Yhar
Make it a tradition for Trafalgar day!


----------



## wannabe SF member (8 Feb 2012)

Yeah and while we're at it, we can bring back the scarlet battledress and the gorget for junior officers. Now that'll impress the hell out of the Taliban,  ;D


----------



## q_1966 (8 Feb 2012)

1839 here we come


----------



## Blatchman (10 Feb 2012)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I just wish they'd give us Army types a freaking lightweight uniform as promised when they ditched the tans before they start thinking about making other changes.



Not before they put the RCN's High Collar Whites on logistik.


----------



## daftandbarmy (11 Feb 2012)

There is ALSO a new Men's Winter Boot.  Info again from Logistik Unicorp site:

DND continues to seek cost saving measures and improve the quality of the products being offered through Clothing Online. One approach is the removal of items showing very low usage after the initial issue. An example is the Men's Rubber Overboots: Survey results showed only 11% of 27,000 men surveyed actually wear the Overboots and that 68% would prefer to see them replaced by a Men's Winter Boot. Therefore by removing the item as an initial issue item we are capable of providing a better product for those who wear it as part of their daily dress during winter months.

About the new boot

Classic design with single slide-fastener

- Water-repellent leather

- Insulated for comfort: Front of boot and underfoot lined with wool; ankle with polar fleece

- High quality rubber sole provides excellent adhesion in winter conditions


Delivery/Additional Information

Delivery of orders is expected to begin in mid-December 2011.

It should also be noted that the Women's Winter boot will also now be issued as an optional item vice an initial issue item.






Groovy Baby!
[/quote]


----------



## Eye In The Sky (11 Feb 2012)

It's almost like you're sober, and nobody p-pp-p-posted the info on the new Men's (soon-to-be-seen-in-Fashion-Weekly) Boot...

its ok....when in doubt....JAB!   :blotto:


----------



## Edward Campbell (7 Sep 2012)

Tango2Bravo said:
			
		

> ...
> As for going back to traditional army rank pre-unification I think it would be fine. Change our DEU so something more "army" like khaki would also be fine.




I have no dog in this fight, but, it seems to me that dark green has a well established place in the Canadian Army.

















----------

With regard to rank badges, I feel that a more *army* system would be appropriate but I, broadly but not deeply, oppose returning to pips and crowns.

How about retaining the stripes on the cuff of the service dress (and mess dress) jacket ... as we did in the early 20th century.






And how about a new, Canadian, system ... *maybe something like*:

1. US ranks for OCdt through Maj:
   1.1 OCdt - 1/2 bar (a bar similar to a US 2lt 1Lt bar but only half the width)
   1.2 2Lt - 1 bar, very much the same as a US 2Lt
   1.3 Lt - 1 and 1/2 bars
   1.4 Capt - 2 bars, very much he same as a US capt
   1.5 Maj - 1 maple leaf (a real, Canadian maple leaf) like a a US major
2. Similar to British ranks for LCol and Col:
   2.1 LCol - a maple leaf with a single bar (2Lt's bar) underneath (looks like a crown over a pip)
   2.2 Col - a maple leaf with two bars (Capt's bars) underneath (looks like a crown over two pips)
3. Generals - no change.





2Lt bars - colours would vary (silver, gold, black, etc) by regiment, and material (woven or metal) by uniform





Capt bars - colours and material would vary, as above





*Imagine*, please, a maple leaf instead of a major's crown and
a 2Lt's bar instead of the 2Lt's pip


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Sep 2012)

I see nothing wrong with the status quo.

We should just leave things alone.

With the RCN especially, and the RCAF to a lesser degree, changing their stuff, it's simply a matter of time before the CA uniform is completely distinct to the element in regards to it's trappings. With no effort or cost on our part, just by leaving our things alone for awhile


----------



## dimsum (7 Sep 2012)

recceguy said:
			
		

> I see nothing wrong with the status quo.
> 
> We should just leave things alone.
> 
> With the RCN especially, and the RCAF to a lesser degree, changing their stuff, it's simply a matter of time before the CA uniform is completely distinct to the element in regards to it's trappings. With no effort or cost on our part, just by leaving our things alone for awhile



What has the RCAF changed?  (Serious question, since I'm kinda out of the loop here.)


----------



## Pusser (7 Sep 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I have no dog in this fight, but, it seems to me that dark green has a well established place in the Canadian Army.



In fact, as I understand it, rifle green was chosen as the CF uniform colour back in 1968, specifically because of the well-established rifle tradition in British North America.


----------



## fraserdw (7 Sep 2012)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I have no dog in this fight, but, it seems to me that dark green has a well established place in the Canadian Army.



I am not picking a fight with you, but I would prefer to see Rifle Green returned to the rifle and light infantry regiments as it once was their distinction, the remainder of the army would be in Khaki or a lighter OD Green.  

As for rank badges, I agree a Canadian system incorporating Canadian devices is necessary.  Our current naval derived rank system is very generic almost "dollar store" uniformlogy.  I would suggest the maple leaf as the basis with other devices to denote, junior, field, general officer grades.  Such as a cross sword and baton for Generals, crossed swords for Majors and Colonels and no device Captains, Lieutenants and maggots.  1 Leaf = first rank in grade, 2 Leaves = second rank in grade to a maximum of 5 leafs.  Pin on devices would save a lot of money on tailoring.   I see no issue with NCM rank as it is now in the army.

Ohhh, I would keep a single gold band on the sleeve for all those folks who seem to have issues on what is saluted and what is not saluted.


----------



## aesop081 (7 Sep 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> What has the RCAF changed?  (Serious question, since I'm kinda out of the loop here.)



New mess kit pattern, that's it.

So, no tax payer-funded change.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Sep 2012)

...and here I thought it would be something significant,...like more wrinkles allowed per square inch. :slapfight:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (7 Sep 2012)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> What has the RCAF changed?  (Serious question, since I'm kinda out of the loop here.)



Not changed, just more distinctive to that arm, I guess. Like the colour and the wedge. Items like that.

Yes, before someone says it, the Army did wear wedge caps, but we don't anymore, nor have we for a very long time.


----------



## dimsum (7 Sep 2012)

Pusser said:
			
		

> In fact, as I understand it, rifle green was chosen as the CF uniform colour back in 1968, specifically because of the well-established rifle tradition in British North America.



Huh.  Learn something new every day.  I remembered someone in the QOR telling me it was b/c one of their senior officers managed to pull a fast one on the rest of the Army and get that colour approved (by another QOR senior officer?)  ???


----------



## Old Sweat (7 Sep 2012)

As I recall, and it was a long time ago and I was serving in Germany at the time, the officer who modelled the first CF green to appear was QOR. One of the reports commented on the maple leaf cap badge as if it was going to be the new common one. Fiendishly clever plot, what?


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Sep 2012)

If I were the CDS and one of my ECS came forward with this idea abotu getting new DEU I'd tell him to pound salt. 

Fiscally restrained environment .....remember?


----------



## McG (7 Sep 2012)

fraserdw said:
			
		

> I am not picking a fight with you, but I would prefer to see Rifle Green returned to the rifle and light infantry regiments as it once was their distinction, the remainder of the army would be in Khaki or a lighter OD Green.


If you are looking for a good way to flush away money, then sure having different uniforms within just the Army would be one way of doing that.



			
				fraserdw said:
			
		

> As for rank badges, I agree a Canadian system incorporating Canadian devices is necessary.


Either you are being theatrical or you do not understand the meaning of the word "necessary".  Regardless, your statement is absolutely false. 



			
				fraserdw said:
			
		

> Our current naval derived rank system is very generic almost "dollar store" uniformlogy.


Our current rank system is functional, understood, and Canadian.  Your "dollar store" label is a disingenuous attempt at poisoning the well.  There is already a problem with CF mbrs knowing rank across environments, but at least it is still recognized; we do not need to further balkanize our forces by ensuring that rank is no longer recognized across environmental lines.

We are not the sort of pigs that can be bought and pleased with buttons & bows while operating budgets are being cut and benefits clawed-back.


----------



## Maxadia (7 Sep 2012)

Can someone please explain the problem with the current design of ranks? What exactly IS the problem that needs a change?


----------



## Old Sweat (7 Sep 2012)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> As I recall, and it was a long time ago and I was serving in Germany at the time, the officer who modelled the first CF green to appear was QOR. One of the reports commented on the maple leaf cap badge as if it was going to be the new common one. Fiendishly clever plot, what?



First, regarding badges of rank we are looking for a problem on which to impose a solution.

Second, why rifle green? We were meekly going where no one went before, and the new uniform could not be brown, tan, air force blue or navy blue. About the only choice left was green and rifle green was more attractive than pea green, forest green (used by the USMC) or just about any other green.


----------



## OldSolduer (7 Sep 2012)

RDJP said:
			
		

> Can someone please explain the problem with the current design of ranks? What exactly IS the problem that needs a change?



There is NO problem with the current system IMO. People want to change for the sake of change or to get back with our "British" roots.

Off with their heads I say!!


----------

