# New BOTC



## AmphibousAssult (5 Nov 2006)

Does anybody have any info about the new BOTC?, whats on it, hows it different. I'm asking because I've recently completed the old IAP and want to know what to look forward to on the new BOTC. Any info would be great, thanks guys.


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## Quag (6 Nov 2006)

It's a lot more tactical which you should find more interesting, as the BOTP that I did used boring (but effective) taskings to prove that we had leadership.  

Expect to see tasking that are more practical and relate to the current world situation.

Thats all I have.

Good Luck


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## 17thRecceSgt (6 Nov 2006)

Apparantly Week 5 (Ex Vimy) is all conducted of a mock "camp" similar to whats being used in-theatre...tasking that can last 24 hours...not much more info at this point.

I can tell you Week 1 is CBRN-heavy.  CBRN test Monday Week 2.

Week 4-5 in the field.


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## Quag (7 Nov 2006)

Week 4-5 has always been in the field.

I really can't see a tasking that lasts 24 hours.  They barely had enough time to get a platoon of 40 candidates through 4 hour taskings...

Must be based purely on RUMINT?

In reference to the mock "camp", those are very nice and were used in my BOTP.  (just as shelter one night when our bivouac was flooded out).  

Big shout out to St. Jean PAT platoon for building them!


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## 17thRecceSgt (7 Nov 2006)

Quag said:
			
		

> Week 4-5 has always been in the field.
> 
> I really can't see a tasking that lasts 24 hours.  They barely had enough time to get a platoon of 40 candidates through 4 hour taskings...
> 
> ...



No actually...was told to the current candidates by staff.   ;D

Week 4-5 were field?  BOTP had a week added to it.  ?


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## Torlyn (7 Nov 2006)

As per end of 2005, BOTP was 5 weeks.  Week 4 was in the field, week 5 was admin week, parade prep, equipment return, etc.  (IIRC, of course)

As for 24 hour taskings, that's 6 per day, as opposed to 3.  More realistic perhaps, forcing candidates to plan in things like sleep for troops, to keep morale and physical / mental levels relatively high?  Who knows.

T


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## Quag (7 Nov 2006)

I mistook you.  My mistake.

I thought you meant week 4 OR 5 were in the field.

As far as 24 hour tasking go, I don't understand your comment Torlyn, nor do I see how they are going to be able to do that.

Does anyone have confirmed knowledge of this or a TP?


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## Torlyn (7 Nov 2006)

What I'm getting at is during the 24 hour period, you designate someone as I/C.  (ie. from 00:00 to 03:00, A is in charge, from 03:01 to 06:00 is person B, etc) and designate certain taskings (or what have you) to occur during each time slot.  That being the case, you will be able to process more people in a shorter amount of time.  Sure you'll be lacking a little sleep, but that never killed anyone.    Clear as mud?

T


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## 17thRecceSgt (7 Nov 2006)

Torlyn said:
			
		

> What I'm getting at is during the 24 hour period, you designate someone as I/C.  (ie. from 00:00 to 03:00, A is in charge, from 03:01 to 06:00 is person B, etc) and designate certain taskings (or what have you) to occur during each time slot.  That being the case, you will be able to process more people in a shorter amount of time.  Sure you'll be lacking a little sleep, but that never killed anyone.    Clear as mud?
> 
> T



And thats the way we did stuff as instructors when I was teaching PLQ and we had to get all the students thru as say, Section Cmdr during routine in the defence...the task may be 24 hours...but...I am guessing here thinking that they will switch up who is in the hot-seat to get everyone thru their leadership tasks.


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## Quag (7 Nov 2006)

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> ...tasking that can last 24 hours...



Ohhhh, see what I understood was what was written.

Tasking (singular) that can last 24 hours.  As in ONE person doing ONE tasking for 24hrs.

That's why I found it so hard to fathom.

Thanks Torlyn for clearing that up.


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## 17thRecceSgt (7 Nov 2006)

Quag said:
			
		

> Ohhhh, see what I understood was what was written.
> 
> Tasking (singular) that can last 24 hours.  As in ONE person doing ONE tasking for 24hrs.
> 
> ...



Or you assumed or inferred.   ;D

What I wrote was taskings that last 24 hours.  Never said "for each person"...that would be impossible for each candidate and I assumed everyone would know that?

But I forget, not everyone one here has run/taught on lots of courses and would just know this stuff because of that.


 8)


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## AmphibousAssult (7 Nov 2006)

So when you guys say tactical stuff does this mean like MLOC training?, section attacks and all that jazz, kinda like an SQ?


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## 17thRecceSgt (8 Nov 2006)

Marksman said:
			
		

> So when you guys say tactical stuff does this mean like MLOC training?, section attacks and all that jazz, kinda like an SQ?



Not too sure on the details.  The current BOTP is the pilot course, and I am not sure its all laid out 100% yet.


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## Crazy Cat (16 Nov 2006)

Current BOTP pilot crse has students in the field in week 4 doing some more Force Protection classes like "routine in the defence" and "battle drills". This is followed by 2 days (and nights) of practice taskings like "Road Block" and "Vital Point Security" with the 4 hour per task time limit. The week is capped off with a fun day on the water crossing and rappel tower. Week 5 is completely filled with taskings. Candidates will each have at least one 4-hour task to lead which may include the "go out-do it-return" type and/or the Comd of a section in the defence (NATO style camps). The EXERCISE runs 24 hours a day and, therefore, the taskings run 24 hours a day but are NOT (each) 24 hours in length. It is true that student Commanders will have to consider things like meals and sleep when planning. Each student should get about 4/24 hours of sleep but maybe not all at once.

Just a little more light on the subject!

CC


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## Quag (17 Nov 2006)

Thanks Crazy Cat for informing us. 

So, in terms of the TASKINGS, aside from the extra week in the field, nothing really has changed?   Tasks are still 4 hours in length, and section commanders still have to worry about food etc... while planning (which, if you had a good group, would eat while walking to the next task).


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## Crazy Cat (17 Nov 2006)

There are lots of changes other than that but the outcome is the same. Battle procedure and Planning assessment. The students will not be searching for a box of rations in the woods or have to build a darkroom in the middle of nowhere. The Section Comd will have his/her section with him/her from the start of the task rather than meeting them at the task site. FED platoon is heavilly involved and gives a huge boost to the reality of the tasks. I don't want to say too much too early as the pilot hasn't even gone to the field yet. I'll give a little more when they finish and the changes (and there will be changes) are made.

CC


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## jmnavy (3 Dec 2006)

I just finished week 5 of the pilot botp so I can fill you guys in a little on what it was like.  Crazy Cat had most of the basic details right.  Each task was 4 hours long and we ran 5 a day.  The last 4 hour block was used for eating, shaving, cleaning weapons, etc and a little sleep.

Each 4 hour task would generally break down like this
1 hour for the ic to receive a warning order, orders, give a warning order, prepare and give orders, plus a few other things (i.e., carry out the first 12 steps of the 15 step battle procedure they're teaching us)
Walk a few km to the task site.
90-120 minutes to carry out the task.
Walk back to camp.
30 minute debrief for the ic.

The distances varied but it was a lot of walking.  One section figured they walked about 70km in 3 days.  Everyone probably slept about 6-8 hours over the first 3 days.  On Wed night we got about 6 hours sleep before the retests were carried out.  The tasks we got were generally things like road blocks, presence patrols, vital point protection, camp security, etc.  To be honest I was not the least bit impressed with the tasks we were given on botp.  The iap tasks were much more varied, challenging and interesting (and covered the same topics).  The botp tasks just involved a lot more walking, a lot less sleep and writing a mission analysis as part of the battle procedure.  

Most of botp was a repeat of weeks 5-9 of IAP.  The new IAP was great but the new botp needs a LOT of work.


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## Crazy Cat (6 Dec 2006)

jmnavy said:
			
		

> Crazy Cat had most of the basic details right.  Each task was 4 hours long and we ran 5 a day.  The last 4 hour block was used for eating, shaving, cleaning weapons, etc and a little sleep.


The Platoon Commander has some leaway with his/her course for timings. Some platoons went from Monday at noon to Wednesday at 2000 hrs strait and had to incorporate sleep, etc into their plan. Jimnavy's course has the right idea though and suggestions will be made for a stop drop for all between 0000 - 0400 hrs.



			
				jmnavy said:
			
		

> Each 4 hour task would generally break down like this
> 1 hour for the ic to receive a warning order, orders, give a warning order, prepare and give orders, plus a few other things (i.e., carry out the first 12 steps of the 15 step battle procedure they're teaching us)
> Walk a few km to the task site.
> 90-120 minutes to carry out the task.
> ...


Again, there are some differences. The Candidate is supposed to receive a Wng O at the start (H-hour), Orders at H+15 min, NMB H+1 hour, and task completion H+4 hours. The Candidate will use those timings in his/her Time App and plan accordingly. There may be some scenario input to have the candidates leave camp or arrive at task at a specific time, etc. And the debrief could be done while the next person gets orders or if the section returns early.



			
				jmnavy said:
			
		

> To be honest I was not the least bit impressed with the tasks we were given on botp.  The iap tasks were much more varied, challenging and interesting (and covered the same topics).


A lot of factors (FED Platoon manning, timings, un-tried scenarios, etc) affected Ex VIMY. Keep in mind that there a a very long list of critique points from the instructors, FED, Standards and, hopefully, a thorough Course Critique from the students to help in making the next course more effective.

CC


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## inferno (10 Dec 2006)

Just did it.
We went 60 hours straight before any down time. 4 hour taskings 12 persons per section. Once everyone had passed, and those who had failed had had one of their retests we finally got a 12 hour stand down. But camp defence continued. (so more like 8 hours downtime.)

Meals and sleep/admin were supposed to be implimented in the camp defence scenario that was cycled through the sections.

Pl Commander told me after grad that we walked 150kms in the first 60 hours.

You know you've lost it when your regular conversation with your fireteam partner in a ditch consists of.

"Hey.. I'm hallucinating, I can see a pink elephant."
"Um.. thats nuts, I was about to say the same thing."
"Oh ya? Well if we both see it, should we shoot it?"
"Nah... I think they're an endangered species around here."


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## PaulD (10 Dec 2006)

The "sleep deprivation" wasn't too bad.  The important thing was to keep moving because once you stopped, you're hooped ;D.  Too bad Fed. platoon was stretched thin otherwise the scenarios would have been that much more realistic.  Anybody from B0075E here?


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## old man neri (10 Dec 2006)

inferno said:
			
		

> "Hey.. I'm hallucinating, I can see a pink elephant."
> "Um.. thats nuts, I was about to say the same thing."
> "Oh ya? Well if we both see it, should we shoot it?"
> "Nah... I think they're an endangered species around here."



Nice. I remember hallucinating once while doing 'tannoy watch' beside a howitzer and a whole lot of ammunition, luckily I didn't think about shooting anything. ;D


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## Meridian (10 Dec 2006)

jmnavy said:
			
		

> The distances varied but it was a lot of walking.  One section figured they walked about 70km in 3 days.



Yeah, I heard about Grid 5662 is it? Something like that, way up where one platoon always seemed to be sent...


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## inferno (10 Dec 2006)

LUCKY 13!


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## PaulD (10 Dec 2006)

inferno said:
			
		

> LUCKY 13!


Hollywood!!


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## 17thRecceSgt (12 Dec 2006)

Good parade last week Lucky 13!  Warm welcome from the WO at The Fort Friday morning eh?  

 ;D


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## Meridian (17 Dec 2006)

Ahhh I miss the Fort.


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## Infanteer (17 Dec 2006)

Sounds like a definate improvement from the old format - the first go may have been rough around the edges, but that can be expected with launching and new program of instruction.


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## MdB (17 Dec 2006)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Yeah, I heard about Grid 5662 is it?



We (B0078F) walked all the way up to the northern fence... Don't know about the distance we covered, but at least 15-20 km/24 hours. That would make something like 60-80 km in the boots... Hopefully, when the staff noticed that we were starting to have really slow down (some were already injured and continued nonetheless, kudos), they provided us with transport most of the time (not all the way to the obj, but part of it).

As for sleeping, we did missions the first 54 hours (Monday 1200 to Wednesday 2000), then we got a mission pause (we had stand-to's), then only the security manning from 0000 to 0400. Then we resumed missions and had 0000 to 0400 breaks Wednesday-Thursday and Thursday-Friday nights. Friday was to uninstall camp add-ons (extra wires, barrels) and standard equiment used (water heaters, benches, MIR, cleaning up the tents...). Our section was tasked with an unofficial mission: we had to attack our own camp, wait for them to organize and mount a flank attack, then fall back to extraction point. I personnally had 4 1/2 mags, about 150 rounds, lots of running to evade and lots of fun. We approched our camp inside the 30 meters without being detected, was great to do.

The missions were from 1200-1600, 1600-2000, etc, all around the clock. At all time, one section was staying at the camp to man the posts. One person from the seciton was detached to stay at camp, this would be the next section I/C. The section I/C who's leading camp security had 3 attached. They usually did admin tasks for 1 to 2 hours, then was off to rest.

Camp is standard NATO mini-camp, but the perimeter was made of concertina wires instead.


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## MdB (17 Dec 2006)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Sounds like a definate improvement from the old format - the first go may have been rough around the edges, but that can be expected with launching and new program of instruction.



Platoon Commander told us that they had already analysed critiques for the IAP and that it would be different for the January serials. BOTC will have to change too (ie comments in this thread and more). Our platoon did a very thorough course critique. Lots of people were disappointed, but I'm glad I did this course, I learned a lot. The only thing is that the IAP is very good and BOTC, but for DNBC, all-around-the-clock task and 15-steps battle procedures, was a repetition of the IAP.


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## Meridian (17 Dec 2006)

One note to clarify however:

WHen I was doing IAP; it was explained that BOTP would be exactly the same as IAP as far as taskings and such go, but that it would be the -real- deal.

IAP was used to teach us the basics, and assess our leadership skills; BOTP was to teach the finer points and ensure execution.
(This obviously is a giant oversimplification of the POs but...)


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