# inside look at RFT



## newaecgirl

If you want to know what RFT is and what we do message me....I have been on RFT since Nov. 8, and will remain there untill I go back on PL about March 12.


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## Trilogy1977

at St. Jean ?

what happened that you're on RFT for that long? guys that started in Oct are now on Platoon's again cause they retested right before the xmas break?


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## newaecgirl

I am an officer, not a recruit, so I have to wait for the next BOTP to start before going back on Platoon.  I prefer to stay on RFT, and continue to work to improve my fitness even more than to sit on PAT for 3 months.  Recruits generally go back on platoon the Monday after they pass their express test (or Vo2 max), it all depends on positions available and how many have to go.  Currently there are 21 waiting to go on platoon as soon as one starts in Jan.


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## old man neri

newaecgirl said:
			
		

> I am an officer, not a recruit........




Not to quibble but you are an Officer Cadet, you are not an Officer. Be careful, some people take offense to you calling yourself that. Just a friendly warning.


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## Gunner98

Or what we used to call a POAT - Potential Officer Awaiting Training.

*newaecgirl*: you have an interesting posting history - I guess it makes you an expert in many areas.  As officers (even ones in training), we are seldom experts, but we should always try to be an example (a good one.)

15 Dec 06

*"We don't carry anyone through RFT."*  Sounds like the CF has been carrying you on the payroll since 20 Oct 06 and will do so for many months to come- so much for being ready to become an officer.  There is only one standard regardless of your age and whether you wear blue or green or black uniforms.

13 Dec 06 
If you want to know what RFT is and what we do message me....I have been on RFT since Nov. 8, and will remain there untill I go back on PL about March 12.

10 Oct 06

"I am off to St. Jean to do the BOTP, starting with week 0 on Oct. 23."

9 Oct 06

“ I have just been accepted as an AEC, and I chose to go airforce over army, because I know that at 27, *even though I can meet the pt standards they are not my strong suit, and I would not enjoy continuing in an army trade.  Having been in the army reserves for some time I have seen women of all shapes and sizes do well in all types of situations.  Only you can know what the bottom line for you is, and in the end you have to go with what you want to do...remember this is a career, not a passing fancy.”*


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## zipperhead_cop

newaecgirl said:
			
		

> If you want to know what RFT is and what we do message me....I have been on RFT since Nov. 8, and will remain there untill I go back on PL about March 12.



It seems Mud Recce Man did a sum up of your squad if I am following the dates correctly:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/52772.0.html

Carbs are the enemy until you are fit.  Good luck.


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## Shamrock

newaecgirl said:
			
		

> I am an officer, not a recruit...



I sincerely hope that statement, which may have been misinterpreted by me and others, is intended to mean "I'm an officer candidate and such have different training requiremenents than NCM recruits."


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## newaecgirl

of course....I figured that was implied, if it wasn't then my apologies.  Currently I am the only officer candidate on RFT, so the rules for me are sometimes being made up as I go along.


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## Sig_Des

newaecgirl said:
			
		

> of course....I figured that was implied, if it wasn't then my apologies.  Currently I am the only officer candidate on RFT, so the rules for me are sometimes being made up as I go along.



Must be nice to be special...


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## newaecgirl

Yep, my goal has always been to be the poster girl for unfit officer candidates....seriously though I have been working on my fitness for 3 years now, and until I started RFT and sat down with the nutritionist to sort out some stuff I haven't really seen any progress....I also am a bit unique in that my problem is not stamina, it is speed (most of the others on RFT need to work on stamina).  Either way I am glad for the opportunity to keep working on my career (I was a reservist for 10 years before doing a component transfer).  RFT is a great program for anyone who has been working on their fitness and seems to have plateaued just below the requirements.  The bottom line is, no matter who you are you have to be willing to work!


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## punkd

Good job on the continuous improvement. A lot of people think they can just go out and run or hit the gym a couple of times a week and expect to see big results. Your off to a good start by talking to the nutritionist diet is a HUGE part of being healthy. Although I don't get why you say it's your speed not stamina for an express test? surely the shuttle run is stamina, there is no real speed involved in it to reach the minimum.


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## newaecgirl

Stamina is also needed for the express test, but if you can't run at the speed needed to reach the beats it doesn't help.  I guess I just need more stamina at a higher speed, but right now being able to run faster than 6 MPH would be HUGE for me.  I can run for a long time at slower speeds, but just don't naturally sprint (although lately I am starting to).

Thanks for the support.


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## George Wallace

newaecgirl said:
			
		

> Stamina is also needed for the express test, but if you can't run at the speed needed to reach the beats it doesn't help.  I guess I just need more stamina at a higher speed, but right now being able to run faster than 6 MPH would be HUGE for me.  I can run for a long time at slower speeds, but just don't naturally sprint (although lately I am starting to).



After reading that, I have the distinct feeling that you really don't know what stamina is.  I sure hope that you don't turn around and tell us you can walk for miles and hours, but can't do the same if you carry a full ruck.


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## Gunner98

For a 27+ year-old with 9 years of Reserve time behind what did you think it ways going to be like. You make it sound like hundreds of thousands of people have never had to do what you are trying to do.  Stamina is not required for the EXPRES test, intestinal fortitude and the will to succeed is all that is necessary. You have to make it to level 4, which is total of 5 minutes of running and or for Incentive Score you would have to run a total of 6.5 minutes.

If you "have been working on my (your) fitness for three years now...I (you) haven't really seen any progress.", you should have thought of ways to improve yourself long before you found RFT and the nutritionist. You could have been running marathons by now.  Terry Fox is a great example of stamina, he ran 42 kms for each of 143 consecutive days. Terry wasn't much of a sprinter (after his amputation) either.

If you come here looking for support, you best take a hard look in the mirror when you get up in the morning. You may be fooling yourself but you're not fooling too many people here.


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## Meridian

Just to clarify a few things:

-Officer Cadets are officers.   They are not commissioned officers, but they fall under the Subordinate Officer heading, and the CF ID Card specifically identifies them as Officers.
This doesn't mean people should try and use this as an excuse for anything, but then again, I don't agree with a full colonel or General pulling special treatment over NCMs either.

-The training system, in my experience, has always lagged slightly behind when it comes to Officer training.  In my view, this is acceptable, because, in the end, the majority of Pers should be NCM, and, the NCMs -are- the CF.   It seems they perhaps did not fully consider the ramifications for Officer cadets; or perhaps, it just wasnt as big of a deal.

-The BMQ courses are administered on a set week schedule, and a recruit coming off course for whatever reason can either be recoursed entirely, or just to a specific week.   OCdts (last I checked), did not get this luxury; you restart the entire course, or you leave the Forces as unsuitable.  

newaecgirl is not special; at least not special in a fun, getting better treatment kind of way. She is the byproduct of a system that puts officers second and puts the troops first, which is the way it should be, especially since, of anyone joining, an officer should be the -most- clear on being a leader in all respects, including physical fitness.


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## DeltaWhiskey

Well, amidst all this anal retentive nitpicking re: officer/officer cadet, stamina/speed, and RFT vs. regular training, I give accolades to newaecgirl and others in this PT program. There are various reasons why an individual would require this kind of training. It seems there exists some hostility towards this PT module, and, to a lesser degree, towards newaecgirl for her contributions. 
Everybody - _Chill_. Get off the semantics and consequent pettifogging. In time, people will perhaps look back and say "Why didn't they implement this program sooner?".


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## Sig_Des

DW,

there's a difference between semantics and accuracy.

As far as the program, well, imo, you're taking staff and training time away from other aspects.

There is a physical requirement to enter the CF. It's not the job of the CF to bring you up to that standard so that they can start training you.

Think of it this way. It's expecting a university to accept you despite below-average grades in HS, and then once you can't perform at the university level, expect them to put you aside, teach you the basics and then start you back up again.

The only way I can see myself saying "Why didn't they implement this program sooner?" is when the CF starts making money for our fat-camp/ free personal fitness program.


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## Good2Golf

It is clear that things have changed from years past.  If this program (RFT) facilitates those commencing it to achieve personal and organizational fitness goals, good on the system for getting with the times.  Hopefully this will remain an intake program that caters to a limited number of people who for whatever personal reason were not sufficiently fit to immediately commence basic training, but who have the motivation to improve towards and eventually (within a reasonable period) achieve the required standard that all other members of the military (except for a small portion who must exceed basic requirements by a significant amount) must meet to serve their country.  I suspect that I and some others have a latent fear that this has the potential to provide ingress of societal acceptance of a gradual reduction in fitness requirement because the CF accepts what may be perceived as Canadian society's desire for inclusion of a greater portion of general society through a more accepting/tolerating/compromising attitude towards personal fitness.  Hopefully I and such others are proved wrong.  I honestly do not believe that existing CF fitness policies are onerous or over-specified.   I say this not as a fitness guru who loves to push things so greatly, that I strive for a heartbeat once every two seconds type of thing.  I hate running, seriously.  My body was not made to run.  My knees hurt after I run.  I'd rather swim or row, for a more equal/equitable body workout, but I also recognize an applicability of running to being a warfighter (of some sort) that requires that I pay heed to things that could/may/will allow me to serve with strong body, spirit and soul.  Did I mention I hate running?  I suck it up and get on with it...I don't mean suck it up in a "I really don't have to be doing this...you're telling me to 'suck it up' is either spitefull or someone with more 'time in' beefing needlessly on a newb" thing...I mean it as an "If you're going to dedicate even the next few years of your life to serving your country, get used to the idea that you volunteered and you have responsibilities to be in the best condition possible to serve!" type of thing.

G2G


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## spqr

> Think of it this way. It's expecting a university to accept you despite below-average grades in HS, and then once you can't perform at the university level, expect them to put you aside, teach you the basics and then start you back up again.


I hate analogies because they are different from the case at hand.  They come with baggage that isn't required in the conversation and serve only to muddy something that could be better explained with simple points.

Anyway, universities do accept substandard people all the time. They take in all sorts of grades below standard when they have seats to fill.  A university doesn't operate on integrity it operates on tuition.

The CF operates on fingers at the triggers (so to speak) and they will put them there in any way that works to make the targets.  The only regretful thing about the RFT program is it costs more (time, money, all sorts of resources I am sure) to fill a position that used to be filled by a fit body through the door.  Its a simple equation, we need more fit bodies and there is a willingness to pay the cost to put them through the door because that cost is lower than suffering the consequences of not doing so.  In the end you get a fit soldier in your unit so why worry about it, the cost has been calculated and deemed worthy.


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## zipperhead_cop

spqr said:
			
		

> Anyway, universities do accept substandard people all the time. They take in all sorts of grades below standard when they have seats to fill.  A university doesn't operate on integrity it operates on tuition.



But that is what you get when you go to school based on an application on the back of a pack of matches.   ;D

I am also concerned with the "get fit later" concept.  If you are not fit from the get-go, in all likelyhood you are not going to be terribly fit ever.  The body you have at 18-21 should be the best one for your entire life (yes, many exceptions) Nobody should need to be told "don't eat a litre of icecream for breakfast" and "walking to the fridge from the basement doesn't constitute exercise".  In all reality, once you start making these sort of allowances, things go to a dump pretty quick.  Pretty soon you will have a bean counter somewhere saying "well, we already invested x-thousand dollars on Pte. Butterass, so we don't want it to be a total waste".  So Pte drags himself to barely pass one objective to the next, but in between goes to a dump.  More courses, more investment.  Next, said obese soldier can legitimately claim disablilty and demand light duties jobs, because "I was this fat when I got on, and they still made me wear those boots" or other such nonsense.  
I am also on the same page as G2G.  Running blows.  But it is an essential componant to combat.  Hell, the shuttle run was implimented in order to allow more people to get in.  It is a lower standard, and you really only need drive to finish the minimum.  So now we want to make it even easier to be unfit?  
Stand by to see off road tires on Segway's painted in CADPAT.


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## DeltaWhiskey

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> DW,
> 
> there's a difference between semantics and accuracy.
> 
> As far as the program, well, imo, you're taking staff and training time away from other aspects.
> 
> There is a physical requirement to enter the CF. It's not the job of the CF to bring you up to that standard so that they can start training you.
> 
> Think of it this way. It's expecting a university to accept you despite below-average grades in HS, and then once you can't perform at the university level, expect them to put you aside, teach you the basics and then start you back up again.
> 
> The only way I can see myself saying "Why didn't they implement this program sooner?" is when the CF starts making money for our fat-camp/ free personal fitness program.



This post perfectly exemplifies what I described in my last post.


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## mysteriousmind

There is few things Id like to say on behalf of the program. 

1- with a society that is getting fatter and fatter each year, 
2- with a society that leaves little place for sports in school due to budget restrain,
3- with an army the does not have enough people 
4- with an army that is required to be on operational terrains

The program might me a good thing. Don't get me wrong. People considering on joining the CF should be in better shape. But if you take out all applicant that does not fit the CF fitness level. how many people would join?

I for myself lost 20 pounds since the middle of September and intend to continue to loose some. I'm am in a system....(public Quebec system) that is doing nothing to encourage people to get in shape. I cannot tell for other province, but in Quebec, there is not a week were they are not talking about the society getting fatter and fatter.

If eventually I get my component transfer and I was offered to do it... well I sure would think about it if it permitted me to be in better shape.

Don't See it as negative, see it more as a tool offered for people who are willing to make the effort required to join the FC.

(OK I am over idealist)


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## Springroll

RFT was started in September 2006 so that those who failed their vo2 wouldn't be sent home(we need recruits)...we could train them and bring them up to standard, then retest. Sounds good to me, and when an old platoon mate of mine was given the opportunity of being part of the pilot platoon, I was excited for him. He did the program(and loved it), passed the vo2 and was just about off onto platoon when the doc found stress fractures in his foot. He is still on PAT, but definitely does not like where warrior platoon is going.

The recruits(and ocdts) that are currently in RFT are not small. Is this because they didn't train before coming? I am willing to bet on it. 
What they need to do is bring back the PT test at the recruiting center, because all I see now is alot of people bunging up a system that is already beginning to see strain with the influx of fit(and semi fit) recruits. RFT is growing faster than I think anyone expected...and it is going to get worse unless something is put in place to weed out those who can not even come close to passing the vo2.


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## Gunner98

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> 1- with a society that is getting fatter and fatter each year,
> 2- with a society that leaves little place for sports in school due to budget restrain,



So let's blame society and the school system for young people being unfit.  If you are not forced by a school system to play sports then you are too busy playing video games and watching the tube after school/work to break a sweat.

The system enrolls or offers you a component transfer after they have been assessed you as capable and motivated.  When you fail to meet the minimum standards unless it is due to injury or illness, then you have misled the system.

Yes indeed the CF needs soldiers and officers - fit ones that don't whine, nitpick and realize they are volunteers.  Volunteering to die for their country not volunteering to get fit while they get paid.  Unless you were homeless before you joined, then don't look at the recruiting centre as a welfare program office.


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## Trinity

Gunner

I was watching tv news last night and saw a clip that Quebec students
are getting fatter and the parents wanted to know what the school
board was going to do about it.

The school board?

Yup.. blame the school board for the parents responsibilities of raising children.
Heaven forbid anyone take responsibility for their own child.


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## Gunner98

davidhmd said:
			
		

> What everyone seems to be overlooking is that this is no different then placing a member on remedial PT when they fail their PT test later on in their career. Should we punt people the first time they fail a PT test? No, we give them an opportunity to take assisted training and then try it again.



 ;D Exactly. We should babysit them now and in the future until they become motivated and capable again. :'(


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## Sig_Des

DeltaWhiskey said:
			
		

> This post perfectly exemplifies what I described in my last post.



You're damned right I'll exemplify your description...and if you don't like it, we'll, believe me, there's a lot more like me in the system...And guess what...we'll be in the system when you get in.

I don't hold anything against someone who's out of shape. I don't understand it, but if you can't run, jump, pull, push in a combat situation, you're a liability.

And I don't think I should have to hold your hand and lead you every step of the way so that you can meet the _*basic entry requirements*_. You're not in shape? Fine, show some damned self-motivation, and get in shape. Apply later. I never liked taking the Physical assessment out of the recruiting stage.

If there is something, ANYTHING, that keeps you from meeting the _minimum_ requirements to join, wether it be PT, Medical, Security, low CFAT Grade....well, you lick your wounds, you go home, you get ready, and you try again, at your own cost. Then you try another kick at the can.


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## George Wallace

What are the statistics on "Age" in the RFT?


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## Good2Golf

Hopefully personal responsibility isn't something that died out some time in the pre-PC 80's/early-90's...nothing irks me more than it always being something other than the individual's fault.

Personally, I really don't care whether the soldier beside me in operations met the necessary operational fitness requirements after a program like the RFT or by being keen prior to enrollment and scoring well on (heck, at least meeting) the (hopefully reinstated, one day) recruiting screening fitness requirements.  That they are motivated to do their BEST...not "just meet spec"...is what I'd like to see more of.  Less words, more action..._facta non verba_.

It is a pleasure working with those who strive to attain gold on the Cooper test...

G2G


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## mysteriousmind

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> So let's blame society and the school system for young people being unfit.  If you are not forced by a school system to play sports then you are too busy playing video games and watching the tube after school/work to break a sweat.



Yes we can blame society and school system, It has been proven in other country (like sweeden if I remember)
It is a mentality to go out instead of playing Video game or you tube...if you are not minded..then guess what you wont do it. and it is not in Quebec educationnal program that you will find such a thing...with 2 period of 75 minutes on a 36 period schedule...and no big motivation...It wont happen.

Take an other example...Im presently CIC officer...we offer to our 67 cadets listed...a evening of sports every week...guess how many is actually attending it on a regular basis... 5 yes 5 cadets...1 officer (me) and our sports trainer. 

If you need more example...ill give you other...

Society and school program can be blame of the non-sport orientation of our youth.


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## Springroll

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What are the statistics on "Age" in the RFT?



MRM mentioned age in his thread here.



			
				Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> RFT has been stood up for 4 weeks now, and holds 13 VERY out of shape troops in it, which I would say, from being 5 feet away from them all, the oldest might have looked 23.


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## beach_bum

mysteriousmind said:
			
		

> Yes we can blame society and school system, It has been proven in other country (like sweeden if I remember)
> It is a mentality to go out instead of playing Video game or you tube...if you are not minded..then guess what you wont do it. and it is not in Quebec educationnal program that you will find such a thing...with 2 period of 75 minutes on a 36 period schedule...and no big motivation...It wont happen.



No, it goes back to personal responsibility and when it comes to youth, the parents.  I do not allow my children to sit and play video games or watch TV all day while shovelling bon bons in their yaps.  Just as I wasn't allowed.  Growing up I played a lot of sports (even down to just playing road hockey with the neighborhood kids) that had NOTHING to do with school.  If you aren't into getting into shape, if not for the military, but for your own health, that is ones own problem.  Not mine, not the schools and not societies.


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## DeltaWhiskey

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> You're damned right I'll exemplify your description...and if you don't like it, we'll, believe me, there's a lot more like me in the system...And guess what...we'll be in the system when you get in.
> 
> I don't hold anything against someone who's out of shape. I don't understand it, but if you can't run, jump, pull, push in a combat situation, you're a liability.
> 
> And I don't think I should have to hold your hand and lead you every step of the way so that you can meet the _*basic entry requirements*_. You're not in shape? Fine, show some damned self-motivation, and get in shape. Apply later. I never liked taking the Physical assessment out of the recruiting stage.
> 
> If there is something, ANYTHING, that keeps you from meeting the _minimum_ requirements to join, wether it be PT, Medical, Security, low CFAT Grade....well, you lick your wounds, you go home, you get ready, and you try again, at your own cost. Then you try another kick at the can.



I wasn't _going_ to get into this, but I will. 
First, Sig_Des, I don't think you fully understood what I meant when I said you exemplified my post. What I was referring to was the comment about a "fat-camp/free personal fitness program"...it's childish. Second, your analogy of the university is logically flawed - it bears no similarity to what we're discussing.
I don't know what you mean by "And guess what...we'll be in the system when you get in". Sounds like a threat to me. I hope not.
I'm 33 years old. This past year I decided to take paternity leave to raise my newborn son. My wife works. I don't know if you have children, I could care less. However, if you don't know what raising children is about, then let me inform you - If you think it's walking around Chapters with a baby strapped to your back reading magazines, with loads of free time, or a casual day at the gym doing cardio while the baby rolls around the floor, you're mistaken. 
For the past 6 years I know that I was one of the more "fit" gym members in our community. I'm _strong_ in comparison to many. I also scuba dive, jog/run, hike, snowshoe, cross-country cycle, and a multitude of other activities. I _know_ I'm not in CF shape right now, nor can I scrounge the time required to get into that shape while still assuming responsibility of raising a family and providing a living. However, I look forward to testing myself, getting back into shape, and _giving_ to my country in nameless ways. If I have to partake in the "fat-camp" to achieve this goal, then so be it...at least I'll try (and succeed). 
Some people enter the forces with university degrees...I'll be one of them. The CF has to take a margin of recruits and teach them how to properly write a grammatically correct sentence. Tell me, should they be ridiculed because of this? Should I say they should earn a degree or learn proper grammar _before_ applying? No. It will be taught them when they enroll. *It shows the tenacity of an individual to want to better themselves, both physically and mentally, when they put the ink to the paper in applying to the CF, IMHO.* Perhaps a recruit can't write a proper sentence, but he/she may have a talent much more important to offer their country.
I apologize for the rant, everyone. A nerve was hit, and this is my response to it. I just hope that someone can appreciate where I'm coming from.


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## mysteriousmind

beach_bum said:
			
		

> No, it goes back to personal responsibility and when it comes to youth, the parents.  I do not allow my children to sit and play video games or watch TV all day while shovelling bon bons in their yaps.  Just as I wasn't allowed.  Growing up I played a lot of sports (even down to just playing road hockey with the neighborhood kids) that had NOTHING to do with school.  If you aren't into getting into shape, if not for the military, but for your own health, that is ones own problem.  Not mine, not the schools and not societies.



Come to think of it I must retract my self partly. No we cannot blame entirely Schools or society...We can blame parents much more. Beach_bum Is right. But It has a certain effectiveness to the point of were there those rules a respected outside the house.


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## Gunner98

DeltaWhiskey said:
			
		

> The CF has to take a margin of recruits and teach them how to properly write a grammatically correct sentence. Tell me, should they be ridiculed because of this? Should I say they should earn a degree or learn proper grammar _before_ applying?



DW - you are losing us with your logic.  What does writing a sentence, earning a degree and being physically fit have in common, other than your ramblings on this page.  What are you basing the writing skills comment on?  Do you know what is involved in the recruitment process?  When do you think the CF has time to teach people to "write a grammatically correct sentence"?  Congratulations on being a father.  Welcome to the real world - many here are mothers and fathers and we try set the example for our children - by knowing who your audience is and to think before we speak or write in a public forum.


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## DeltaWhiskey

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> DW - you are losing us with your logic.  What does writing a sentence, earning a degree and being physically fit have in common, other than your ramblings on this page.  What are you basing the writing skills comment on?  Do you know what is involved in the recruitment process?  When do you think the CF has time to teach people to "write a grammatically correct sentence"?  Congratulations on being a father.  Welcome to the real world - many here are mothers and fathers and we try set the example for our children - by knowing who your audience is and to think before we speak or write in a public forum.



Gunner98, re-read my post, and I'm certain that the claritiy of it will come to you. Physical and mental _betterment _ is equally achievable _through_ the CF. If this were not the case, there would be little need for additional PT _and_ classroom/field learning (i.e. Basic Training)...no? Some enter in need of physical tuning. Others may require _upgrading_ (for lack of a better term) in a different capacity. That's it. That's all I meant. Quite simple, really.


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## niner domestic

I'm one of those parents who took a long, cold look at the physical training classes in my daughter's school and found them lacking in a consistent application of training up to a standard of fitness and then being able to apply that fitness to a particular sport and skill set. To counter the hit and miss (sorry HOM) of a maintaining a standard of fitness, we enrolled her in several sports and physical training opportunities that helped her maintain a level of fitness such as rowing, volleyball, three day eventing, dressage and gym class 2x a week.  She was also encouraged to pursue school sports as well as the obligatory 4 weeks in the bush, hunting with her grandfather and me. Even with all that, when she joined the navy, she still had to work extra hard at PT to exceed the physical fitness standard necessary to do her job.   

When she had her baby last year, she returned to her ship six weeks after the birth and managed to just barely make the PT test.  Had she not been in top shape prior to her pregnancy, she would have failed and been put on remedial PT or been told to stay on mat leave a while longer.  

I'm having a hard time with the entire RFT implementation as many on here are also having although I do have some small concession that one should not throw the baby out with the bath water if a candidate shows a likelihood to succeed and progress through the training if given extra time to "train up" from a basic level of fitness. I do however have, a hard time conceding that the CF should be training up recruits and Ocdts from an unfit state.  (can someone confirm that there is still the PT component to enrollment where you are expected to be able to do a certain amount of PT prior to BMQ? - you know the one where you had to be able to do so many situps and run a mile in so much time etc - Or has that gone the way of the dodo bird?)   

Now, just prior to my retirement, I had been dealing with a nasty case of cancer in my leg and had undergone various surgical procedures and chemotherapies to fix the problem.  Even after all of that, I still could score level 6 on my beep test but felt that I was at a physical plateau and in all likelihood never be able to do better (or even perhaps maintain that level) so it was time to pull the pin before I lost the means to be considered an equal with my peers.  I cringed at the thought of being a medical deadweight.  So, I do tend to have a hard time when someone who is in training to be a member of the CF can't get the PT part or is a member and fails their PT, being sympathetic to their plight.  My stock answer has always been fish or cut bait. The responsibility to be physically fit lies with each member and in what they put in their mouths, and does not lie with school boards, parents, psps or anyone else.   If you don't do the work prior to joining, during your membership, you can not blame anyone but yourself.  My docs did tell me that if I been weaker or in a poorer physical state, I would have lost my leg to the infections that set in after surgery and certainly would have succumbed to the MRSA bug that got me while in recovery.  It's been 3 years now, and I still go to the gym 4 times a week and I walk 10 km every day (although I got smart and trained my dog to carry the knapsack).


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## Sig_Des

Before I reply, I want to clarify for you DW, that I'm not attacking your opinions, but stating mine



			
				DeltaWhiskey said:
			
		

> I wasn't _going_ to get into this, but I will.
> First, Sig_Des, I don't think you fully understood what I meant when I said you exemplified my post. What I was referring to was the comment about a "fat-camp/free personal fitness program"...it's childish.



You're stating that my opinions are synonymous with those of all CF members and members on this board. Attacking something that's new or that we don't understand. In my opinion, RFT is nothing more than a fat-camp/free personal fitness program at the cost of the government to bring people up to the BASIC standard. The Standard that CF Members *(correction: CF APPLICANTS)* previous to this had to reach on their own. You need a common starting ground to be able to start your Basic training, which includes physical training. IMO, it is NOT the responsibility of the CF to bring you up to this MINIMUM ENTRANCE REQUIREMENT.



> Second, your analogy of the university is logically flawed - it bears no similarity to what we're discussing.



Really? Fine, let's go to the lowest common denominator. You need a minimum of Grade 10 to enter the CF..that is the MINIMUM. I don't think it's the responsibility of the CF to take those who failed grade ten, and have them go through grade 10 at St-Jean before they join a platoon. To me, RFT is the same thing.



> I don't know what you mean by "And guess what...we'll be in the system when you get in". Sounds like a threat to me. I hope not.



This isn't a threat, but a statement that there are many you will work for in the CF. After you complete your training, and pass a career course, there are many who won't hold your hand if you are unable to perform to the standard required. I don't expect to have to teach basics over to someone who should have learned it on their own courses. 



> I'm 33 years old. This past year I decided to take paternity leave to raise my newborn son. My wife works. I don't know if you have children, I could care less. However, if you don't know what raising children is about, then let me inform you - If you think it's walking around Chapters with a baby strapped to your back reading magazines, with loads of free time, or a casual day at the gym doing cardio while the baby rolls around the floor, you're mistaken.



Age is no matter. When I did my basic training, we had a 52 year old in my platoon. Guess what, he met (actually exceeded) the minimum standards on his own, during the recruiting process. Did this of his own accord. An example of self-motivation.

No I do not have any children, wether you care or not. But I HAVE assisted in the raising of children. I am aware that parenting is a full time job, and my hats off to anyone who does it. What does that have to do with PT standards? There are many in the forces who have multiple children. They pass the standards.



> For the past 6 years I know that I was one of the more "fit" gym members in our community. I'm _strong_ in comparison to many. I also scuba dive, jog/run, hike, snowshoe, cross-country cycle, and a multitude of other activities. I _know_ I'm not in CF shape right now, nor can I scrounge the time required to get into that shape while still assuming responsibility of raising a family and providing a living. However, I look forward to testing myself, getting back into shape, and _giving_ to my country in nameless ways. If I have to partake in the "fat-camp" to achieve this goal, then so be it...at least I'll try (and succeed).



Congrats on being in good shape. You did this of your own accord, I assume? Your employer didn't pay for you to get a personal trainer or nutritionist, I assume? I also applaud your desire to serve your country. Remember that life in the CF will not only test you, but also your family. You say that you don't have time to get in shape while also having the responsibility of raising a family. Think of how your family will be tested when you are away for long periods of time, or up late in the night, bringing work home. All at the same time that you are expected to maintain a standard.



> Some people enter the forces with university degrees...I'll be one of them. The CF has to take a margin of recruits and teach them how to properly write a grammatically correct sentence. Tell me, should they be ridiculed because of this? Should I say they should earn a degree or learn proper grammar _before_ applying? No. It will be taught them when they enroll.



Take it from someone who's BEEN through the training system. I was never taught by the CF to write a grammatically correct sentence. I was taught how to write the format of military documents. I was taught how to write orders. Not grammar. This would be where the grade 10 education requirement comes in, in addition to the CFAT.



> *It shows the tenacity of an individual to want to better themselves, both physically and mentally, when they put the ink to the paper in applying to the CF, IMHO.* Perhaps a recruit can't write a proper sentence, but he/she may have a talent much more important to offer their country.



You're right, not everyone can write a proper sentence. This is where the CFAT aids in choosing what trades you qualify for, or have the ability of performing in.

I'd say that even MORE of an individuals tenacity can be shown when they decide to apply themselves to at least MEETING the minimum standards on their own, not expecting to be led by the nose by the CF, on the CFs buck.



> I apologize for the rant, everyone. A nerve was hit, and this is my response to it. I just hope that someone can appreciate where I'm coming from.



Just this one, from me. I reacted to a post by you, trying to use my OPINION to quantify your statement. This struck one of MY nerves. Once you have been through the process, I am perfectly willing to calmly discuss pros and cons, and difference in opinions. Until then, I would suggest you sit back and think about what some here put out, mainly people who A) Have gone through the training system and those who B) HAVE taught.

I come to you as someone who has done both.

My opinion stands. I don't believe in the RFT program. I don't think it's our responsibility. I will not attack the members, as I'm sure many will be outstanding soldiers. It is not up to me wether we have it or not. But once again, IMO, I think these soldiers would be even MORE outstanding if they chose to bring themselves up to pt standards before they got in.


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## Gunner98

DeltaWhiskey said:
			
		

> Gunner98, re-read my post, and I'm certain that the claritiy of it will come to you.



Nope, I've read it several times, it must be so simple that I still don't see it, sorry DW.  

Fact: Applicants must meet a minimum aptitude level during the requirement process.  Fact: Recruits/OCdts will be required to meet the minimum fitness standard.  Upgrading is plentiful in the CF, once you have met the minimum enrollment standards.


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## DeltaWhiskey

Sig_Des,
Well, I don't think this is going to get far. We could stay here all night arguing back and forth, as it were. 
I can see _exactly_ where you are coming from on not wanting the RFT program to become open flood gates letting in every person who's definitely not capable of doing the job - now or ever. I agree with that. Some recruits will use that as a ticket to have it handed to them - that's not what I'm about.
Now my perspective: I feel that the RFT program _could_ quite possibly benefit people like me who, a very short while ago, were in decent condition, but have lagged in that physical state in recent time. 
BTW, I never intended to use my age_ or _ having children as an excuse, but merely as part of a detailed explanation.
Also, it's hard to nail back and forth our points via the internet. It would be much easier to speak them freely from mouth where words don't get minced (so easily, that is). I'm certain I didn't state that your opinions are synonymous with those of the CF or of other board members, though. But, I still wince when you use "fat-camp"...it's most likely not accurate, I'm sure you'll agree.
Anyway, you can rest assured that you won't need to "hold my hand", as you say. If I thought I couldn't hack something I'd honourably bow out or try my best to beat it...preferably the latter.


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## DeltaWhiskey

Gunner98 said:
			
		

> Nope, I've read it several times, it must be so simple that I still don't see it, sorry DW.
> 
> Fact: Applicants must meet a minimum aptitude level during the requirement process.  Fact: Recruits/OCdts will be required to meet the minimum fitness standard.  Upgrading is plentiful in the CF, once you have met the minimum enrollment standards.



Yeah, it's a funny thing that "simplicity" factor.


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## Sig_Des

I'm glad you can see my point, and yes. The way I see it is as a potential loophole.

I'm glad you don't want to be the kind of person who takes advantage of it, but others will.



> I'm certain I didn't state that your opinions are synonymous with those of the CF or of other board members, though



Wasn't stated, so much as the implication I got.



> But, I still wince when you use "fat-camp"...it's most likely not accurate, I'm sure you'll agree



Maybe, but if you knew me like some of the others on this forum, I'm not the most PC, loving, hand-holding type.


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## George Wallace

DeltaWhiskey said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's a funny thing that "simplicity" factor.



I have been reading your rants, and some of them sound like someone who has done the egg in the fryingpan/mind on drugs commercial for real.

You really have to get over yourself and just take the advice of people on the site who have the experience and time in the CF to give it to you.  Many of us have joined the CF after attaining University Degrees.  Whoopee Ding!  It is your ability to pass the PT Test that we are talking about here, not your friggin ego.  If you fail the PT, your ego will have let you down.  Get off your butt and buy one of those jogging buggies for your kid and get out and push it around town to get that physical training you may need.   Right now you sound like one of the biggest whinners this site has seen in the past year.


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## zipperhead_cop

DeltaWhiskey said:
			
		

> Now my perspective: I feel that the RFT program _could_ quite possibly benefit people like me who, a very short while ago, were in decent condition, but have lagged in that physical state in recent time.



No doubt it could.  Hell, I would love to just kick back and have a personal trainer and have a couple of months in pure gym mode.  It would be a riot.  But there is no good reason that an applicant should not be in shape *BEFORE* they apply.  I'm with SigDes on this.  This is not Jenny Craig--CADPAT Edition.  We have the training standards published.  The fact that someone would see then, try them, fail them, and then say "feh, I'll just get in shape when I get there" is pathetic.  That the CF is _enabling_ this lack of initiative with this program is even worse.  
What you are not aware of DW, is that the standards at basic training are just that...basic.  The lack of enthusiasm you are seeing from the members that have done it comes from knowing that we can look back and see what we were asked to do and realize that it really wasn't all that hard.  It just seemed hard given the total stressor package that basic training provides.  Physical fitness (or lack thereof) is supposed to weed out the weak elements, not redirect them to some corpulent twilight zone.


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## DirtyDog

Since I've spent the better part of my last 10 years smoking, drinking, and eating like a king, I figured I was RFT bound even though I passed the PT test.  My weight bit me in the ass another way though as I've now got stress fractures that don't seem like they'll be healed by the end of Christmas leave.  

The EXPRES test is really quite easy.  If you can't make it to 4 on the VO2 Max test, AND you've been "working on your fitness for 3 years", I'd say you've got problems.  Just my opinion.


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## DeltaWhiskey

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I have been reading your rants, and some of them sound like someone who has done the egg in the fryingpan/mind on drugs commercial for real.
> 
> You really have to get over yourself and just take the advice of people on the site who have the experience and time in the CF to give it to you.  Many of us have joined the CF after attaining University Degrees.  Whoopee Ding!  It is your ability to pass the PT Test that we are talking about here, not your friggin ego.  If you fail the PT, your ego will have let you down.  Get off your butt and buy one of those jogging buggies for your kid and get out and push it around town to get that physical training you may need.   Right now you sound like one of the biggest whinners this site has seen in the past year.



I should take this opportunity to say that I _may_, afterall, not have to go the RFT route anyway. I don't necessarily forsee any/many problems with the regular PT, but that remains to be seen. 
George Wallace, you're just getting down to personal attacks here now. I have no problem whatsoever taking advice from these guys here. As a matter of fact, I think we were having a legitimate debate...I was actually learning something, in case you couldn't tell from my last post addressing Sig_Des. I can see where he's coming from, and I appreciate his perspective(s).
It appears you just feel like I need to be set straight for some reason. Where did all this come from anyway?
And as for whiners (not "whinners", BTW), well, I think you've overshot your judgement a little bit. I wasn't whining, just sharing comments back and forth. It's what adults do these days.


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## DeltaWhiskey

Sig_Des said:
			
		

> I'm glad you can see my point, and yes. The way I see it is as a potential loophole.
> 
> I'm glad you don't want to be the kind of person who takes advantage of it, but others will.
> 
> Wasn't stated, so much as the implication I got.
> 
> Maybe, but if you knew me like some of the others on this forum, I'm not the most PC, loving, hand-holding type.



All points here well taken, Sig_Des.


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## Haggis

Wow!  Another PT Thread!!!

Almost 30 years ago, when I signed on the dotted line, there was no fitness test.  There was no RFT either.  But there certainly was an_ expectation _ that each and every person who wore the Queen's uniform would step up and get the job done.  Our "RFT" consisted of increasingly brutal (in the opinion of today) twice daily PT sessions in which you kept up or "paid in pain" to those who dragged you along.  After a few weeks, the dragging stopped and those who couldn't/wouldn't keep up were counseled out (asked to leave).  Some left on their own, after admitting that they were woefully out of their depth academically or, more often, physically.

Instructors back then taught soldiering and the lifeskills we were taught centered around surviving combat.  No diet and nutirition lectures.  No remedial PT.  You ate in the mess.  The food was good, plentiful and healthy.   There was lots of work to do after hours.  Studying, station jobs, kit and quarters.  You were confined to barracks anyways, so you might as well work on your uniform.  And God help you if you called the pizza man during your CB!

It's that generation that leads the CF today.  Yes, us creaky, scarred old bastards who you see in the gym, on the road or under a ruck you wouldn't dare lift, every damned morning.  By God if you can't keep up with even the slowest of us on the first day of the rest of your life, you've failed the first test in your CF career.


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## Journeyman

Haggis said:
			
		

> Wow!  Another PT Thread!!!
> 
> Almost 30 years ago, when I signed on the dotted line, there was no fitness test.  There was no RFT either.  But there certainly was an_ expectation _ that each and every person who wore the Queen's uniform would step up and get the job done.  Our "RFT" consisted of increasingly brutal (in the opinion of today) twice daily PT sessions in which you kept up or "paid in pain" to those who dragged you along.  After a few weeks, the dragging stopped and those who couldn't/wouldn't keep up were counseled out (asked to leave).  Some left on their own, after admitting that they were woefully out of their depth academically or, more often, physically.
> 
> Instructors back then taught soldiering and the lifeskills we were taught centered around surviving combat.  No diet and nutirition lectures.  No remedial PT.  You ate in the mess.  The food was good, plentiful and healthy.   There was lots of work to do after hours.  Studying, station jobs, kit and quarters.  You were confined to barracks anyways, so you might as well work on your uniform.  And God help you if you called the pizza man during your CB!
> 
> It's that generation that leads the CF today.  Yes, us creaky, scarred old bastards who you see in the gym, on the road or under a ruck you wouldn't dare lift, every damned morning.  By God if you can't keep up with even the slowest of us on the first day of the rest of your life, you've failed the first test in your CF career.


Speechless.

What he said....only with a Cpl (who really doesn't care about your self-esteem) poking you in the chest as it's being said!


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## zipperhead_cop

Obviously you two will not be selected for RFT Phase II instructor.  
Once candidates have achieved a fitness standard on par with that of a Grade 3 dodgeball team, they pick coordinated PT gear that best suits their personality along the principles of feng shui.  Third fitness session is replaced on even days with "Fitness Visualization" whereby candidates sit in a circle (in ergonomically sound chairs, of course) and talk about how to run and be fit.  Each gets to spin the "Wheel of Blame" and multiple excuses categories are talked about and adopted.  Coffee and donuts after, 'natch.  Odd days are massage/acupressure/pedicure days as it is unreasonable to expect our precious goslings to go without basic physical necessities.  
And it goes without saying that this program cannot possibly be successful if the CF does not provide a domed, climate controlled environment to perform all these incredibly harsh taskings.  
God, how we mistreat our people!  

[/sarcasm]


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## navymich

Will we get paid on the 14th and 29th too, zip??


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## zipperhead_cop

airmich said:
			
		

> Will we get paid on the 14th and 29th too, zip??



Of course.  Special heart rate monitors will be worn, and anyone who has a heart rate over 140 bpm for longer than 15 minutes will get danger pay.


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## Sig_Des

zipperhead_cop said:
			
		

> Of course.  Special heart rate monitors will be worn, and anyone who has a heart rate over 140 bpm for longer than 15 minutes will get danger pay.



Not to mention the redresses of grievances if the air is not perfectly conditioned, an *gasp* the water isn't bottled.


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## aesop081

{muffled sound}

Hear that ?

Thats the sound of yet another PT thread going down the drain.....


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## Haggis

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> {muffled sound}
> 
> Hear that ?
> 
> Thats the sound of yet another PT thread going down the drain.....



My work here is done.


----------



## navymich

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Thats the sound of yet another PT thread going down the drain.....



As long as Des' precious bottled water isn't used to wash it down!  (well, unless it isn't at the perfect temperature, and then it's a waste anyway....much like this post! ;D)


----------



## Sig_Des

Tis true...we should all have the last 3 posts of our post-count removed.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Its coming......


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## navymich

da plane boss, da plane....and is that the ramp opening??


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## Sig_Des

I think there may still be some discussion left in this thread, but I'm not gonna post here until any new debates open up.

I've stated my case.


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## Trinity

and LOCKED..........









oh wait.. I was have delusions again.. I'm not Monkhouse  ;D

But..  this post is my prediction.


----------



## aesop081

wait.....i'll have it locked....



RFT SUCKS !!!!!

(that should do it)


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## Yrys

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> wait.....i'll have it locked....
> 
> RFT SUCKS !!!!!
> 
> (that should do it)



Nope, that didn't !


----------



## vonGarvin

I'll try to lock it

(Pssst: watch this


RFT was used by the Nazis.

(Godwin's law in effect!)

EDIT:
This is actually a case of _Reductio ad Hitlerum_: a logical fallacy that has the form of: "Hitler supported _x_, therefore, _x_ must be evil."  

Example:
- Hitler advocate the use of the air force to support ground forces.
- Hitler was evil
- Therefore, the use of the air force to support ground forces is evil.


There, is the thread locked yet?


----------



## Trinity

I heard there were a lot of reccescubaninjajtf2snipers on RFT


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## Yrys

Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> I'll try to lock it
> 
> There, is the thread locked yet?



Still nope, but I don't see any DS in the site at the moment 

Édith : yoho, Bruce


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Granted......


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