# BC Murders / MB Manhunt of Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky



## tomahawk6

An American womand and her Australian boyfriend were found murdered on the side of a road in BC. The deceased boyfriend's dad is a cop in Australia. Two detectives from Australia were sent to work with BC police. Hope they catch the killer or killers quickly.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/american-woman-23-australian-boyfriend-24-found-dead-along-highway-n1031981 

https://abc7.com/manhunt-after-nc-woman-australian-boyfriend-murdered-in-canada/5407906/


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## Colin Parkinson

Back in the 90's I was doing a underwater forensic course and the police instructor said they estimated that 5-6 serial killers were working Western Canada.


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## mariomike

Nothing like having the RCMP give a press conference on two people who were murdered and having the cat ear filter on.
https://twitter.com/tylerrdawson/status/1152330457888874496


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## Cloud Cover

Another dead, 2 more missing in northern BC: these are in addition to the young couple found murdered a few days ago.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/teens-missing-body-discovered-in-northern-b-c-1.4517645


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## brihard

A lot of weirdos move up and down the Alaska Highway. It’s a pretty canalized route for ne’er-do-Wells through Yukon, B.C, and Alberta. Lots goes on there, and the Mounties are very thin on the ground and far apart. That said, these two incidents are each well outside what is normal up there, and if linked, would be one hell of a spree by someone who will probably go down hard when cornered.

I hope police can put an end to this quickly.


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## tomahawk6

Doesnt BC have its own police or does the RCMP police the province ?


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## tomahawk6

2 Canadian kids have now come up missing in the Dease Lake area.  

https://www.foxnews.com/world/teens-now-missing-in-canada-days-after-australian-man-north-carolina-woman-killed-along-remote-highway


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## daftandbarmy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Doesnt BC have its own police or does the RCMP police the province ?



BC policing is covered by a mix of RCMP and municipal forces. Most rural areas contract with the RCMP.


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## tomahawk6

I See. Thx When I was vacationing in the Yukon the RCMP handled policing for the province so I wasnt sure. Thx


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## dimsum

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Doesnt BC have its own police or does the RCMP police the province ?



In general, RCMP takes care of most of the country.  The only provinces with their own police force are Ontario (Ontario Provincial Police) and Quebec (Surete du Quebec).  The rest are all RCMP, then municipal/city police forces.


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## mariomike

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The only provinces with their own police force are Ontario (Ontario Provincial Police) and Quebec (Surete du Quebec).



Perhaps not identical. But, similar in function to State Police and Highway Patrol.


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## ModlrMike

Dimsum said:
			
		

> In general, RCMP takes care of most of the country.  The only provinces with their own police force are Ontario (Ontario Provincial Police) and Quebec (Surete du Quebec).  The rest are all RCMP, then municipal/city police forces.



You forgot the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary.


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## brihard

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> You forgot the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary.



Sort of... they don’t come anywhere close to providing full provincial policing, but rather are concentrated in a couple cities/areas. The RCMP still polices most of Newfoundland.


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## tomahawk6

Fox news is covering this closely. Intially the RCMP approach was to downplay this as a threat to the public. With the second murders I think their approach has changed. Eventually they will get their man. Meanwhile dont breakdown on that stretch of road. If it were me I would be armed with a pistol, but thats not the law in Canada but a shotgun is legal right ? At least the last time I was in Canada it was.I was able to bring in a shotgun and 300 win mag for my raft trip down the Yukon.


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## Remius

Looks like the missing young men are now suspects. 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/couple-killed-in-bc-missing-persons-lucas-fowler-chynna-deese-1.5221657

This has all the makings of a criminal minds episode...


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## tomahawk6

People will breathe easier when this is wrapped up.


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## dimsum

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Fox news is covering this closely. Intially the RCMP approach was to downplay this as a threat to the public. With the second murders I think their approach has changed. Eventually they will get their man. Meanwhile dont breakdown on that stretch of road. If it were me I would be armed with a pistol, but thats not the law in Canada but a shotgun is legal right ? At least the last time I was in Canada it was.I was able to bring in a shotgun and 300 win mag for my raft trip down the Yukon.



In a wilderness area, yes.  But you need the proper licenses, registrations, locking mechanisms, etc.


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## tomahawk6

How times have changed since the 80's. ;D


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## tomahawk6

What turns a couple of teenagers into thrill killers ? Last seen in Saskatchewan. Won't be long until their capture now there are pictures up of the pair.


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## dimsum

https://globalnews.ca/news/5672805/missing-bc-teens-now-murder-suspects/?utm_source=onsite_notification

As of an hour or so ago the RCMP think they may be in Gillam, MB in the province's north east.


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## Retired AF Guy

Dimsum said:
			
		

> https://globalnews.ca/news/5672805/missing-bc-teens-now-murder-suspects/?utm_source=onsite_notification
> 
> As of an hour or so ago the RCMP think they may be in Gillam, MB in the province's north east.



Hopefully they haven't any other bodies behind them.


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## brihard

Dimsum said:
			
		

> https://globalnews.ca/news/5672805/missing-bc-teens-now-murder-suspects/?utm_source=onsite_notification
> 
> As of an hour or so ago the RCMP think they may be in Gillam, MB in the province's north east.



If true, they’re at the wrong end of a long highway with no other way out.


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## Humphrey Bogart

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Fox news is covering this closely. Intially the RCMP approach was to downplay this as a threat to the public. With the second murders I think their approach has changed. Eventually they will get their man. Meanwhile dont breakdown on that stretch of road. If it were me I would be armed with a pistol, but thats not the law in Canada but a shotgun is legal right ? At least the last time I was in Canada it was.I was able to bring in a shotgun and 300 win mag for my raft trip down the Yukon.



Most of the gun laws we have are designed for the Cities/Populated Areas of Canada.  Go out to the bush and it's basically free-for-all.  Yah people are supposed to follow the rules but there are few police to uphold them and people generally do as they please.

Case in point:

Took this photo outside Radisson, QC on the James Bay Road.  







It reads in French "Shooting on, near or across the road is prohibited"

You can't make it out but the road sign has about a dozen bullet holes in it


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## TheHolyGhost

Hopefully they are not up here anymore, I am currently working just past Wonowon down the Mile 103 road on Hwy 97. Will definitely be doing a vehicle inspection prior to to leaving to Fort St John and before I head back out to work.


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## brihard

Sounds like a solid sighting in Split Lake MB yesterday (one of the two looks to be wearing a CADPAT shirt that a store clerk recognized), and then a burned out vehicle was found farther up the way... they’re basically stuck if they’re up there; there’s only one way out and it’s the way they came in.


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## ballz

It'll be nice when these guys get apprehended... guilty or not remains to be seen, but whatever has happened it seems like they've gone full tilt.


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## brihard

Source: Twitter, from locals in Gillam, MB.

Burned out SUV located, looks like a RAV 4. “SWAT” (RCMP ERT) in the area with helicopter support.

I suspect we’ll see a surrender or suicides. They will not be enjoying hunkering in the woods getting eaten alive. They’re realizing about now that life is not an airsoft game.


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## GAP

Unless they car jack someone up there, there's nothing for them around there....


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## dimsum

My time estimate might be way off, but didn't they put a ton of km between the last update (SK?) to Gillam?  It didn't seem that long in between those two updates.


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## FSTO

Dimsum said:
			
		

> My time estimate might be way off, but didn't they put a ton of km between the last update (SK?) to Gillam?  It didn't seem that long in between those two updates.



As per Google Maps.
14hrs
1297km

Gillam is the end of the line, unless they want to jump the train to Churchill.


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## brihard

GAP said:
			
		

> Unless they car jack someone up there, there's nothing for them around there....



Nowhere to go even if they do. You can bet your ass the RCMP will have a roadblock up on the highway out.


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## GAP

Yeah, and there's only one road....


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## Colin Parkinson

Be sad if they were found eaten by a bear.....


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## BDTyre

A couple of articles are now quoting one of the teens' fathers as saying they are "survivalists" who like to go into the woods and "play war" and are "trained in camouflage." Ummm...okay.


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## The Bread Guy

Latest from Ontario Provincial Police North West Region's info-machine …


> The Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) are issuing a public safety warning in relation to the suspects in a British Columbia homicide of a young couple along with another death.
> 
> The last confirmed sighting of the suspects, Kam McLEOD and Bryer SCHMEGELSKY, was in Meadow Lake, Saskatchewan. It would appear the suspects are heading in an easterly direction.
> 
> The suspects are to be considered dangerous. Police have reason to believe they were recently in the Gillam, Manitoba area.
> 
> If you see them, do not approach them and any person with information regarding this missing person investigation should immediately contact 911 or the Ontario Provincial Police at 1-888-310-1122.


PDF version of statement & latest cop pix attached.


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## newwifey

RCMP confirm burned vehicle found near Gillam, Man., belonged to suspects
Increased police presence in Manitoba communities of Gillam, Fox Lake Cree Nation
Manitoba RCMP following up on “numerous tips” regarding the two suspects
Ontario Provincial Police issue warning to public that suspects may be “heading in an easterly direction”

https://globalnews.ca/news/5675920/2-teen-suspects-three-people-killed-north-bc-manhunt/


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## brihard

It's a hot day in Gillam- over 30*. Tomorrow it rains, then drops down to 9 at night. They won't be able to hear the RCMP helicopters for all the mosquitos and sandflies. They're about 24 hours into some excruciating physical misery if they stay out in the bush. There's no way out for them, the single road out of town is roadblocked.

Unfortunately the father of one of the two involved is predicting his son will go out 'in a blaze of glory'. This was the lad raised on YouTube and video games after his parents split. Here's hoping he finds himself humbled by a few rough nights in the woods and comes in quietly. I don't want to see any of the good guys come to harm over this.


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## tomahawk6

Any vacation homes in the area ? Might be easy to break into an empty place and the chances of finding food in one might be good.


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## brihard

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Any vacation homes in the area ? Might be easy to break into an empty place and the chances of finding food in one might be good.



I don’t think you truly appreciate how remote this place is.


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## OldSolduer

Brihard said:
			
		

> I don’t think you truly appreciate how remote this place is.


It's not quite the middle of nowhere but very close.


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## Colin Parkinson

Paint Lake is the closest rec area with homes


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## SeaKingTacco

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Any vacation homes in the area ? Might be easy to break into an empty place and the chances of finding food in one might be good.



T6- the Gilliam area is like the very middle of Alaska. Outside of town, there is nobody (I mean nobody) for at least 200kms in any direction. Just muskeg, mosquitos and black flies. And the odd bear, just thrown in for fun.


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## Humphrey Bogart

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> T6- the Gilliam area is like the very middle of Alaska. Outside of town, there is nobody (I mean nobody) for at least 200kms in any direction. Just muskeg, mosquitos and black flies. And the odd bear, just thrown in for fun.



If it's near a Reserve there will probably be a few hunt camps though.


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## The Bread Guy

Some of the latest ...


> Teen fugitives Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky have been charged with second-degree murder in the death of a Vancouver man — the third victim in the recent killings in Northern B.C. Leonard Dyck was identified by police on Wednesday.
> 
> McLeod, 19, and Schmegelsky, 18, were charged on Wednesday with one count of second-degree murder in Dyck's death.
> 
> Canada-wide warrants have been issued for both men.
> 
> Dyck was found dead five days ago at a highway pullout about two kilometres from a burnt-out camper truck, discovered the same day, south of the B.C.'s Stikine River Bridge on Highway 37.
> 
> The burnt vehicle was later identified as belonging to McLeod and Schmegelsky ...


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## Remius

Sure bet most people up in that area have guns.   With everyone being vigilant those boys might get more than they bargain for the next time they confront someone.

It's comforting to know that these two will be spending their last days of freedom cold, wet, hungry and quite possibly bug bitten to the point where turning themselves in is a better option. 

Reminds me of Gary Tison who ran into the desert after a killing spree while on the run. 

https://murderpedia.org/male.T/t/tison-gary-gene.htm

Long story short, he died.  Heatstroke the likely cause.  Ironically he was 100 meters from a water source.  That is karma for you.


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## NavyShooter

Unless they car-jacked another vehicle when they burned theirs down - and headed south before they were noticed.

My guess - they car-jacked, killed the owner, and were moving south well before the cordon went up.  I don't think they'd want to be out in that terrain.


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## brihard

NavyShooter said:
			
		

> Unless they car-jacked another vehicle when they burned theirs down - and headed south before they were noticed.
> 
> My guess - they car-jacked, killed the owner, and were moving south well before the cordon went up.  I don't think they'd want to be out in that terrain.



Another missing person and vehicle would likely have been noticed by now. Small town and all. Certainly possible they stole a car.

In any case, the whole province has its eyes peeled now. If they *are* on the move again, they’ll struggle to stay unnoticed. Every gas station attendant is going to know these faces.

More likely they’re hunkered down in a cabin somewhere with no idea what to do, if they haven’t already shot themselves.


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## tomahawk6

Its being reported here that one of the boy's father says his son will want to suicide by cop. My guess is that once they are located they will approach after they have gone to sleep.


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## BDTyre

I wonder if this is a case of incels wanting to make themselves heard.


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## brihard

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I wonder if this is a case of incels wanting to make themselves heard.



If so they probably would have gotten a manifesto out by now...


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## BDTyre

Brihard said:
			
		

> If so they probably would have gotten a manifesto out by now...



You'd think so, but given their location and how quickly things have happened they may not have been able to. Or maybe it has yet to be found (or was left in the truck they torched). They do seem to fit the profile, and it could explain the murder of the couple (the older man was a murder of necessity - they needed a vehicle).

That said, I am by no means even close to an expert on these things. Pure speculation on my part.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

I think it was more a case of "this will be cool"....(little pause)...."WTF did we just do?"


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## BDTyre

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I think it was more a case of "this will be cool"....(little pause)...."WTF did we just do?"



That was the other motive that crossed my mind too.


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## Cloud Cover

There a few pics circulating now that one of these guys was/is some flavour of Nazi worshipper. One pic has him posing with an air soft rifle (rolls eyes) and the other is a knock off SS blade and a Swastika flag. There’s another of him wearing a surplus store gas mask. The uniforms etc are knock off airsoft apparel.


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## Remius

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> That was the other motive that crossed my mind too.



Or, we're running out of money so "let's jump the next people we see" and things escalated and got out of hand.  Either the couple or the prof. were at the wrong place at the wrong time when it went down.  No witnesses and all of that.


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## BDTyre

Remius said:
			
		

> Or, we're running out of money so "let's jump the next people we see" and things escalated and got out of hand.  Either the couple or the prof. were at the wrong place at the wrong time when it went down.  No witnesses and all of that.



100% wrong place, wrong time. And if this had happened further south, closer to civilization, these kids likely wouldn't have evaded capture this long.


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## Remius

I read that both these two guys are 6 foot 4 inches.  That will certainly stand out travelling together.


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## tomahawk6

They worked together at a BC Walmart.Wanted :


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## tomahawk6

Images on the news of the search show swampy terrain. People are advised to stay home or travel in groups and the newscast stated that people are sleeping armed. I can certainly understand the need for being alert and ready to defend oneself or family. Eventually these killers will be flushed from hiding and I hope there is no further loss of life.


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## MilEME09

Just hit the news, RCMP requested CAF help in the search, for now it is in the form of aircraft. I am sure an Aurora will find them in short order


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## Sub_Guy

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> I am sure an Aurora will find them in short order



It’d be cheaper and more efficient to use a few choppers.   Send in a few Cyclones.


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## Eye In The Sky

MilEME09 said:
			
		

> Just hit the news, RCMP requested CAF help in the search, for now it is in the form of aircraft. I am sure an Aurora will find them in short order



Depending on the search area (size, type, etc) the 140 could be the best asset.  It does bring a great ONSTA ability and good comm's ability.

I'd like to see a 140 supported by fling-wing.   :2c:


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## tomahawk6

Something that has a thermal sensor should do the trick. RCMP say that the suspects may have left the area by changing their appearance.  

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/canadian-military-steps-in-as-search-for-b-c-murder-suspects-continues-1.4524759


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## dimsum

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Something that has a thermal sensor should do the trick. RCMP say that the suspects may have left the area by changing their appearance.
> 
> https://bc.ctvnews.ca/canadian-military-steps-in-as-search-for-b-c-murder-suspects-continues-1.4524759



The problem would be to positively ID them.  IR just tracks heat signature - it can't tell apart people's appearances.


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## brihard

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The problem would be to positively ID them.  IR just tracks heat signature - it can't tell apart people's appearances.



Yup, but seeing one or two people where you wouldn’t expect them to be, or a heat signature off a cabin... These are all things a ground team can check out. More critically, they can help eyeball with thermal for a ground team to identify potential ambushes.

A camera/sensor equipped Dash-8 from Transport Canada was part of the takedown for the Moncton shooter. This is something the Mounties have dealt with before.


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## Retired AF Guy

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> "fling-wing."


 ????


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## The Bread Guy

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> ????


Helicopter (unlike fixed wing) ...


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## Eye In The Sky

Dimsum said:
			
		

> The problem would be to positively ID them.  IR just tracks heat signature - it can't tell apart people's appearances.



EON...getting to Poss or Prob is better than....nothing?


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## Retired AF Guy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Helicopter (unlike fixed wing) ...



Thank you.


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## Oldgateboatdriver

Too bad the new SAR birds aren't in service with their newfangled gadgets: This would be good training !!!


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## dimsum

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> Too bad the new SAR birds aren't in service with their newfangled gadgets: This would be good training !!!



Their newfangled gadgets are almost exactly the same as the current ones on the Aurora (I think MX-15 instead of MX-20?).  The sensor operators are AES Ops, so those folks already have the training/experience.  I guess the pilots may get some training, but they already know how to fly search patterns by that point.


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## brihard

A Herc is on the ground now. I couldn’t get a good look from the twitter photos but I think I read ‘338’ stenciled just forward and below the front passenger doors, if this helps. Can I surmise that our newer hercs have good surveillance equipment to assist with SAR?


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## Oldgateboatdriver

I didn't mean training on the equipment - which I know they already know how to operate. I meant good training in locating a couple of warm bodies in the middle of the Canadian forested wilderness (and don't tell me Aurora operators are used to this, I wouldn't believe you.  rly since in the present case, the life of injured/lost people would not be a stake so - less time constraints. 

I assumed that, even if you know what you are looking for and the operating concepts, nay new platfrom requires some getting used to.


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## dapaterson

Brihard said:
			
		

> A Herc is on the ground now. I couldn’t get a good look from the twitter photos but I think I read ‘338’ stenciled just forward and below the front passenger doors, if this helps. Can I surmise that our newer hercs have good surveillance equipment to assist with SAR?



That's a H-model Herc, 28 years in CAF service.

http://www.rwrwalker.ca/CF_CC130.html

130338
first date: 7 February 1991 - Taken on strength

Identified as a CC-130H90 or H90(T) for maintenance purposes, based on year of build.  Designations KCC-130H is unofficial, designated as CC-130H(T) for engineering purposes.  Converted to air-to-air tanker configuration by Northwest Industries, Edmonton, Alberta and assigned to 435(T&R) Squadron based at CFB Namao, Edmonton AB in 1992.  With No. 435 Squadron at CFB Edmonton, Alberta in 1994.  Moved to CFB Winnipeg with this unit in 1994.  Still with this unit in 1995, and 2005 at CFB Winnipeg.  Fuel imbalance caused the aircraft to slowly tilt onto its left wing during an overnight stop at CFS Alert, Nunavut on 24 November 2005.  Minor damage to wing tip.  Took part in training exercises at Key West NAS, Florida in March 2012, operated by 435 Squadron.  Still active at Winnipeg in January 2013.


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## ballz

Something always seemed pretty off about them going up that way towards a complete dead end... at first I thought it was because they were hysterical and just did something absolutely stupid as a result. But they've somewhat successfully disappeared, and I'm starting to question if it wasn't deliberate, like if they knew someone there that would help them.... or that they're already dead in the woods, suicide or hypothermia.


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## MilEME09

ballz said:
			
		

> Something always seemed pretty off about them going up that way towards a complete dead end... at first I thought it was because they were hysterical and just did something absolutely stupid as a result. But they've somewhat successfully disappeared, and I'm starting to question if it wasn't deliberate, like if they knew someone there that would help them.... or that they're already dead in the woods, suicide or hypothermia.



Or perhaps they were meeting someone? it's possible they could of had help to escape the area


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## Sub_Guy

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> (and don't tell me Aurora operators are used to this, I wouldn't believe you.  rly



We’ve done plenty of overland training with the Army, in Canada.   Not all of our training is performed in the maritime environment.  I’ve also flown a few overland training missions in the UK. 

It is not rocket science.  Point, look, and optimize.  

Believe it or not, Aurora crews have the training required to take on this task.


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## Humphrey Bogart

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I didn't mean training on the equipment - which I know they already know how to operate. I meant good training in locating a couple of warm bodies in the middle of the Canadian forested wilderness (and don't tell me Aurora operators are used to this, I wouldn't believe you.  rly since in the present case, the life of injured/lost people would not be a stake so - less time constraints.
> 
> I assumed that, even if you know what you are looking for and the operating concepts, nay new platfrom requires some getting used to.



I've actually trained with an Aurora before when I was still an Infanteer.  They can do the job just fine.

It's pretty simple "hey plane I need you to ISR soak the road between Grid X and Grid Y, anything there?" 

They do it and tell us what they see  8)


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## dimsum

Brihard said:
			
		

> Can I surmise that our newer hercs have good surveillance equipment to assist with SAR?



Not as far as I know.


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## Humphrey Bogart

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Not as far as I know.



Maybe they deployed this air asset to support the RCMP:







 ;D


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## tomahawk6

Mountie's have a parachute SWAT unit ?


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## devil39

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Maybe they deployed this air asset to support the RCMP:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ;D



In one of my "purple" jobs, I had an RCMP Inspector, ERT guy, who worked for me.  

He used to say to me "Hey Boss, cops don't go where the big trees grow", referencing the difficulties RCMP ERT had in the green vice urban environment.   

They have their work cut out for them on this one in the big ol' boreal forest


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## brihard

devil39 said:
			
		

> In one of my "purple" jobs, I had an RCMP Inspector, ERT guy, who worked for me.
> 
> He used to say to me "Hey Boss, cops don't go where the big trees grow", referencing the difficulties RCMP ERT had in the green vice urban environment.
> 
> They have their work cut out for them on this one in the big ol' boreal forest



That very much depends on the ERT. Some at necessarily more urban. Some do a lot of rural work and are quite good at it, within the scope of what their tasks are.


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## devil39

Brihard said:
			
		

> That very much depends on the ERT. Some at necessarily more urban. Some do a lot of rural work and are quite good at it, within the scope of what their tasks are.



Yup.  Agreed.  This would also have been over 10 years ago, and a lot of training was being done to bring up those green skills.


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## Humphrey Bogart

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Mountie's have a parachute SWAT unit ?



No they do not, the military does though.  The Tier 1 Special Ops Unit.

I was making a joke about them deploying JTF2 for this.



> Joint Task Force 2 (JTF 2) is an extremely high-readiness and precise special operations forces unit. JTF 2 exists to protect the Canadian national interests and combat terrorism and threats to Canadians at home and abroad.


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## tomahawk6

So JTF2 can be used domestically ?


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## MJP

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> So JTF2 can be used domestically ?



Yes, absolutely.  They formed exactly for that purpose when they took over from the RCMP SERT in 1993ish


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## Good2Golf

MJP said:
			
		

> Yes, absolutely.  They formed exactly for that purpose when they took over from the RCMP SERT in 1993ish on April 1, 1993.


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## Good2Golf

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> So JTF2 can be used domestically ?



T6, Canada does not have an equivalent to the U.S. Posse Comitatus Act.   So while many Dom CT tasks are not done by DOD Active Duty unit’s, but by FBI and DHS in the US, Canada’s Armed Forces (including all tiers of SOF) can be employed by the Federal government in domestic operations.

Regards
G2G


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## expwor

On CBC
Military arrives in Northern Manitoba to help search for homicide suspects 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/homicide-northern-bc-manitaba-1.5227846


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## tomahawk6

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> T6, Canada does not have an equivalent to the U.S. Posse Comitatus Act.   So while many Dom CT tasks are not done by DOD Active Duty unit’s, but by FBI and DHS in the US, Canada’s Armed Forces (including all tiers of SOF) can be employed by the Federal government in domestic operations.
> 
> Regards
> G2G



Thanks for the clarification.


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## Cloud Cover

So much for the surveillance state theory.


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## Retired AF Guy

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> T6, Canada does not have an equivalent to the U.S. Posse Comitatus Act.   So while many Dom CT tasks are not done by DOD Active Duty unit’s, but by FBI and DHS in the US, Canada’s Armed Forces (including all tiers of SOF) can be employed by the Federal government in domestic operations.
> 
> Regards
> G2G



Correct me if I'm wrong, but their has to be a request from the RCMP/province/etc and the CDS has to sign-off on it. Having a CC-130 come in not a big deal. but JTF-2/CSOR? Big deal.


----------



## dimsum

expwor said:
			
		

> On CBC
> Military arrives in Northern Manitoba to help search for homicide suspects
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/homicide-northern-bc-manitaba-1.5227846



I guess the Auroras weren't able to spool up as quickly.


----------



## Good2Golf

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but their has to be a request from the RCMP/province/etc and the CDS has to sign-off on it. Having a CC-130 come in not a big deal. but JTF-2/CSOR? Big deal.



The Ministers of Public Safety and National Defence generally are the two key officials involved - both federal.


----------



## OldSolduer

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I guess the Auroras weren't able to spool up as quickly.



And the Hercs are in Winnipeg. 😉


----------



## tomahawk6

So far the search has only turned up a polar bear. Fitting that 2 killers might meet their end as dinner. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/28/canada-hunt-polar-bear-found-search-for-teen-suspects


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

Good2Golf said:
			
		

> The Ministers of Public Safety and National Defence generally are the two key officials involved - both federal.



As usual for Canada, it's a little more complicated than that.

First of all, we have to know that Canada has a single Criminal code, enacted by Parliament, unike the US which has 51 different ones (one per state and the Federal one). Since that code defines the powers of peace officers, our police officers are technically police officers anywhere in Canada (So much for running to the county line "Dukes-of-Hazzard" style to foil the Sherriff).

This said, the administration of justice and public safety/security are Provincial responsibility, so the provinces - not the Federal governement - are responsible for providing police services and natural disaster relief in their province. The Federal Minister of Public Safety is responsible only for overarching national security: national level criminal intelligence, security on Federal properties, border security and policing for purely Federal acts with criminal level of infractions (Controlled Substance Act [drugs], Firearms Act, Customs and Excise Acts) through a Federal police - the RCMP, and provision of police services to the Federal territories (Yukon, N.W.T and Nunavut).

So policing in the various provinces is provincially provided. The two largest provinces (QC and ON) do so through their provincial police forces and various municipal forces. The other eight provinces have elected to do so by contracting for the services of the RCMP provincially and having municipal police forces for the large municipalities. Don't be fooled: These RCMP forces working on contract for the provinces are answerable to the provincial Department of the Attorney-General, or their equivalent in each province. These RCMP "sub-forces", so to speak, operate in their own province only and coordinate with other provincial forces as if they were for that province only. Of course, when two provinces have to work together and they both use the RCMP, it makes coordination easier - but they remain separate entities.

BTW, this set-up explains the schizophrenic nature of the RCMP, with the bulk* of the force made up of small town/country police officers and the national group made of high-end, complex criminal investigators and security experts, but nothing in the middle as they are without working knowledge of large town/cities policing and investigations realities.

So, going back now to assistance requests for police matters or natural disasters: It is the provincial public safety ministers that make the requests (the RCMP cannot ask for such assistance directly except for Federal level matters) to the Federal public safety minister. Now here is the thing: once the request is made, the Federal must provide assistance, but it is the CDS (upon consulting with the M.N.D.) that decides what help he/she can/will provide, because, once provided, these military forces now work under the authority of the provincial ministry of public safety - not the Federal one (i.e., they now answer to Her Majesty the Queen of [insert province] as represented by the Lieutenant-Governor-in-council of that province). For instance, during the Oka crisis and the October crisis, the troops deployed in Quebec were under provincial orders. The beauty of the system is, if the Federal level feels that the province wants to misuse the troops or use them for improper purposes, they can send "assistance" that won't really help**.

All this to say that, in legal effect, we have the equivalent of "Posse Comitatus" because the CAF can only be deployed in a province under that province's orders and direction - they become in effect like US State's National Guard but in Canada, instead of having provinces have their own, they borrow them from the Federal governement.  There are, of course, very limited purely Federal cases. For instance, the forces deployed at the border last year to deal with influx of refugee claimants entering from the US - as this was a Federal matter (border security), or the troops deployed to protect Parliament during the October crisis, which remained under Federal jurisdiction. 

*: If all provinces were to terminate their contract with the RCMP and set up their own forces, about 75% of RCMP officers would have to be laid off.

**: For instance, if a province wants troops to help "quell riots" that really are just peaceful demonstration against the current Premier - but really just want to use the troops to scare them into silence, the CDS (upon advice) could send that province the Naden marching band, or a field ambulance unit.


----------



## Good2Golf

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> As usual for Canada, it's a little more complicated than that.



I should have been clearer, I was referring to CANSOF domestic counter-terrorism operations.

Domestic employment = PSC (past SOLGEN) + MND & International employment = GAC (in past DFAIT) + MND. 

Re: Domestic CT, one can refer to Canada's National Counter-Terrorism Plan (NCTP), referred to in the 1999 Senate Special Committee on Terrorism and Public Safety report (ref:https://sencanada.ca/content/sen/committee/361/secu/rep/repsecintjan99part2-e.htm#The%20National%20Counter-Terrorism%20Plan%20(NCTP)):

You are right, OGBD, that things are not always clear.  Many of the provisional CTPs still have variations to the NCTP, although I admit to not tracking the latest issues in alignment/conflict, re: PCTPs and the NCTP.

Regards
G2G


----------



## tomahawk6

Bear Clan Patrol in Gillam.  

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/bear-clan-patrol-deployed-gillam-manitoba-first-nations-1.5227719


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Bear Clan patrol in Gillam.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/bear-clan-patrol-deployed-gillam-manitoba-first-nations-1.5227719



Good on them. BCP does very good work in the Peg.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I didn't mean training on the equipment - which I know they already know how to operate. I meant good training in locating a couple of warm bodies in the middle of the Canadian forested wilderness (and don't tell me Aurora operators are used to this, I wouldn't believe you.  rly since in the present case, the life of injured/lost people would not be a stake so - less time constraints.



We are used to it and things very similar.   ;D

Looking for "things and people" in wooded areas isn't complicated;  it is something the 140 crews did routinely in theatre during OP IMPACT.  Overland training scenarios, exercises (Ex Common Ground as an example, in Gagetown) are part of routine/periodic training.  I've 'tracked' sentries to their sentry location at night following their "path" on Common Ground.  

But, the real keys are (1) getting a good area to be directed to search, and  (2) the area must be methodically searched;  something that we became very good at (IMO) during IMPACT.  Those of us that did XXX number of missions over there have transferred, at least some, of that knowledge as operators to new Sqn members.  Some of the operators that did IMPACT are also instructors on the MOAT now; transfer of knowledge starts before arriving on Sqn.  The same would be happening in the ACSO seats (I'm assuming).  

DH nailed most of the key stuff for even a very junior operator by just saying "point/optimize".  All that is really left is a good scan plan and scan integrity (followed by "knowing and recognizing what you're looking for and at" which is an experience level thing).  A camp fire looks very different from a human, as an example.



			
				Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I've actually trained with an Aurora before when I was still an Infanteer.  They can do the job just fine.
> 
> It's pretty simple "hey plane I need you to ISR soak the road between Grid X and Grid Y, anything there?"
> 
> They do it and tell us what they see  8)



This.  


Good luck to the Herc crews.


----------



## Remius

BAck on track.

Looks like the search area might be moved.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/rcmp-searching-york-landing-man-for-b-c-fugitives-1.5228418


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Remius said:
			
		

> BAck on track.
> 
> Looks like the search area might be moved.
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/rcmp-searching-york-landing-man-for-b-c-fugitives-1.5228418



It would not be impossible to have stolen a canoe somewhere and have back-tracked up the Nelson River.

Just damned hard work.

If they slipped the noose in Gilliam and are in York Landing, the RCMP had better not under-estimate these two. Maybe they have just been lucky so far, but there is  pattern of tactical cunning emerging.


----------



## Remius

Apparently someone may have spotted them at a local dump.  That might be good indication that they might be getting desperate.


----------



## Cloud Cover

Whose yellow Jet Rangers are up there? They aren’t RCMP or OPP.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Whose yellow Jet Rangers are up there? They aren’t RCMP or OPP.



Probably a rental  ;D


----------



## Cloud Cover

Looks like either Ontario MNR or something privately owned out of 3CFFTS. Looks like there at least 2 up there, plus all the others.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Looks like either Ontario MNR or something privately owned out of 3CFFTS. Looks like there at least 2 up there, plus all the others.



That might be one of the reasons they can't find them... they aren't using their feet


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> That might be one of the reasons they can't find them... they aren't using their feet



Someone call up the South Africans already!


----------



## The Bread Guy

Really?


> The father of a British Columbia murder suspect has written a book that sheds new light on his mental health, explains harassment convictions involving his ex-wife and provides greater insight into the possible impacts the events had on his fugitive son.
> 
> Alan Schmegelsky, the father of 18-year-old Bryer Schmegelsky, sent a book to reporters this week titled “Red Flagged,” which he says is a novelization of actual events and fictionalizes some incidents.
> 
> Bryer Schmegelsky is a suspect in three murders in northern B.C. along with his friend, 19-year-old Kam McLeod, and RCMP are continuing to search a boggy, remote area in Manitoba where they were last seen.
> 
> The 132-page book, which Alan Schmegelsky said he planned to self-publish this week but now does not intend to publish for sale, reveals new details of his troubled life and his numerous encounters with police and courts.
> 
> He said he sent the book to reporters to highlight how a “broken system” has shaped him and his son.
> 
> He writes that he was arrested by Victoria police on Aug. 4, 2008, his son Bryer’s eighth birthday, three years after his acrimonious split with the boy’s mother. In a rambling, profanity-laden recollection, he explains how he was sentenced to probation because he had no criminal history at the time.
> 
> Court records show he was charged with criminal harassment in December 2008. He was found guilty of the lesser offence of disobeying a court order.
> 
> He returned to court numerous times over the next decade ...


More @ link


----------



## brihard

Cloud Cover said:
			
		

> Whose yellow Jet Rangers are up there? They aren’t RCMP or OPP.



There’s tons of charter air up north, both fixed and rotary wing. Contracting local for things like SAR isn’t at all unusual, so the RCMP division probably already had pre-negotiated offers for access to aircraft on an emergency basis.


----------



## tomahawk6

I saw interviews with the father and thought that he was making the situation all about him. In fact he might be responsible for bad parenting.


----------



## Remius

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I saw interviews with the father and thought that he was making the situation all about him. In fact he might be responsible for bad parenting.



Maybe.  He looks sketchy. 

At the end of the day though those two kids know exactly that what they are doing and have done is wrong.  Dad or no dad. They both made a choice to cross that line.


----------



## The Bread Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I saw interviews with the father and thought that he was making the situation all about him ...


I'm starting to get at least a bit of that vibe, too.  As for bad parenting, I know a few families where there's more than one kid, both got treated to (what seemed to me) reasonably good parenting, and one's OK & one's off the rails, so I won't pass judgement on his parenting yet.

That said …


			
				Remius said:
			
		

> … those two kids know exactly that what they are doing and have done is wrong.  Dad or no dad. They both made a choice to cross that line.


That.  Right.  There.


----------



## Journeyman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> …. I won't pass judgement on his parenting yet.


Well, from the news article about his 'book,' _clearly_  it's not him or his parenting -- "the system is broken."  (You know, that system where every judgement that cited him or his behaviour, he simply disagreed with).

Bad system, _bad_   :tsktsk:

      :


----------



## Cloud Cover

All they have to do is give themselves up. Nobody is going to hurt them. Time for this one to end. 
As for the Dad, he’s clearly got some issues, but he’s still a hurting father and there probably isn’t anyone here (I’m hoping) that is judging him. 

I wonder how much click revenue has been generated as a result of these murders and related background stories.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Well, from the news article about his 'book,' _clearly_  it's not him or his parenting -- "the system is broken."  (You know, that system where every judgement that cited him or his behaviour, he simply disagreed with).
> 
> Bad system, _bad_   :tsktsk:
> 
> :


So young to be so cynical  ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Pulled out the "who's doing policing where/policing pressures" post & moved them here:
https://army.ca/forums/threads/130901.0/all.html

Carry on …

Milnet.ca Staff


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Supposedly Schmegelsky has over 500 hours clocked playing the video game RUST.

The game essentially revolves around being dropped off naked in the woods somewhere and then scavenging for water, food, shelter and equipment.  It is a multiplayer game and other players try and steal your stuff with WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY.


----------



## daftandbarmy

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Supposedly Schmegelsky has over 500 hours clocked playing the video game RUST.
> 
> The game essentially revolves around being dropped off naked in the woods somewhere and then scavenging for water, food, shelter and equipment.  It is a multiplayer game and other players try and steal your stuff with WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY.



Should we be concerned that you seem to know a little too much about that game HB?


----------



## JesseWZ

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Really?More @ link



The publicly available BC Court Services Online tells a different story of dad then the one he tells about himself. I only searched Victoria Provincial Court (as I understand he has lived in other jurisdictions) but I came up with a lot of results over a number of years for criminal harassment and breaches of court ordered conditions of various sorts. It seems the guy can't leave things well enough alone. *Multiple *convictions for crim harassment is enough to raise my eyebrows, as it can be a hard charge to prove and Crowns are often unwilling to move forward with it here.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Supposedly Schmegelsky has over 500 hours clocked playing the video game RUST.
> 
> The game essentially revolves around being dropped off naked in the woods somewhere and then scavenging for water, food, shelter and equipment.  It is a multiplayer game and other players try and steal your stuff with WHATEVER MEANS NECESSARY.



I own the game, played exactly one hour and could only find a measly rock before some 12 year old with an AK47 gunned me down and laughed in to my computer speakers.  

 ;D


----------



## Eye In The Sky

An Aurora is now supporting the search.  IMO, this was the right asset to bring into the fold.  If the 2 suspects are watching, this outta change their sense of 'freedom of movement' some.

Good hunting to the crews!!



> Updated: July 29, 2019 2:29 pm
> 
> The Canadian Forces has deployed a C-130H Hercules and a CP-140 Aurora aircraft to aid in the search. One aircraft, the Aurora, is equipped with infrared camera and imaging radar systems.



Global News Article Link


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> I own the game, played exactly one hour and could only find a measly rock before some 12 year old with an AK47 gunned me down and laughed in to my computer speakers.
> 
> ;D



And that's when I realized I was better suited for the Navy.


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> And that's when I realized I was better suited for the Navy.



 :rofl: 

I am a mean Rocket League player though!


----------



## tomahawk6

The suspects were stopped by a safety officer before the manhunt kicked off. 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/canada-murder-suspects-were-stopped-by-constables-let-go-before-manhunt-announced-official-says


----------



## The Bread Guy

Via CBC.ca …


> The Canadian military is pulling out of the hunt for two B.C. fugitives in northern Manitoba as the search in the area stretches into its ninth day.
> 
> The police force decided Wednesday morning that they no longer needed military assistance, RCMP Insp. Kevin Lewis told reporters.
> 
> "At this point in time … we want to again be focused with our own resources and determine where we should go from here," Lewis said.
> 
> Ground and air searches will continue in the area around Gillam, Man., the last place Bryer Schmegelsky and Kam McLeod were confirmed to have been seen.
> 
> Police officers in the area are now down to 40 members (police numbers at the height of the search were never disclosed). The RCMP also said they will be returning to Fox Lake Cree Nation, where they have previously done door-to-door searches ...


----------



## tomahawk6

The US border with Canada is on alert should the killers try to cross. For two untrained teens they have either been very lucky to escape arrest. It may be a tactic to make the bad guys think that the RCMP have given up, but its possible that the lads are dead.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A bit more detail from the RCMP in MB:


> * Statement from the Assistant Commissioner Jane MacLatchy on the reduction of resources deployed in the Gillam area
> *
> July 31, 2019
> Winnipeg, Manitoba
> 
> Statement
> 
> On behalf of every member of the RCMP in Manitoba, I want to offer my condolences to the families and friends of the victims of the homicides in British Columbia.
> 
> On the afternoon of July 23rd, the Manitoba RCMP became aware that two murder suspects from BC could be in our Province.
> 
> As you all know, a vehicle had been found burnt - out in a remote area, approximately 40 km kilometers from Gillam and close to Fox Lake Cree Nation. It was later established that this vehicle was indeed the vehicle the suspects had been driving.
> 
> Manitoba RCMP responded immediately, deploying front-line and tactical officers, police dogs, forensic identification specialists and Major Crime investigators to the Gillam area.
> 
> An RCMP plane with infrared capabilities was also deployed and conducted an aerial search of the area that same evening.
> 
> Over the last week, we have done everything we can to locate the suspects.
> 
> Using RCMP and Royal Canadian Air Force assets, we searched approximately 11,000 square kilometres in northern Manitoba.
> 
> We canvassed every home and searched every abandoned building in Gillam and Fox Lake Cree Nation. This equals to over 500 homes and buildings.
> 
> We searched rail lines, hydro corridors, lakes, rivers, vast areas of tundra and muskeg, dense forests and brush.
> 
> We conducted exhaustive searches on foot, with dogs and with all-terrain vehicles. We used boats on lakes and searched from the air with drones, helicopters and planes.
> 
> We used some of the most advanced technologies available and received assistance from some of the most highly skilled search and rescue personnel in the country.
> 
> In addition, over 250 tips were received and followed-up on.
> 
> RCMP and RCAF personnel have logged thousands of hours, working 24/7, during this search for the suspects.
> 
> However, even with this extraordinary effort, we have not had any confirmed sightings of the suspects since the burned vehicle was located.
> 
> Taking into account all of the work so far, it has come time to re-assess our deployment of resources to the area.
> 
> Over the next week, the RCMP will begin to scale down the search efforts in northern Manitoba.
> 
> This will include the phased withdrawal of the majority of specialized RCMP and RCAF personnel and assets over the coming week.
> 
> To be clear, we're not ending the search – a number of tactical resources and specialized assets will remain positioned in the Gillam area and will continue with the efforts to locate the murder suspects.
> 
> In addition, all of our resources will be ready to respond to the region as required should new information emerge.
> 
> We have also received assurances that the RCAF will be ready to assist us if needed.
> 
> I know that today's news is not what the families of the victims and the communities of northern Manitoba wanted to hear.
> 
> But when searching for people in vast, remote and rugged locations, it is always a possibility that they are not immediately located.
> 
> The terrain in northern Manitoba is immense and unforgiving. The weather is often unpredictable.
> 
> Additionally, there remains a possibility that the suspects had some sort of assistance to flee the area. This of course is still an area of consideration for the RCMP.
> 
> We continue to encourage the public to be on the lookout for these two suspects and to continue to submit tips. Something that may seem insignificant to you may be extremely valuable to our officers.
> 
> If you have information or if you believe you see the suspects, please contact your local police immediately.
> 
> As the search begins to scale down in the area, I want to thank the communities of Gillam, Fox Lake Cree Nation and York Landing for their incredible support and the resiliency they've demonstrated over the last week.
> 
> You have shown incredible strength and courage during a time of uncertainty. You came together and looked out for one and other.
> 
> I applaud you, and thank you for all the help you have provided to our officers during these challenging times.
> 
> I also want to assure you that our officers will still have a presence in the area and will be there for you. Do not hesitate for a moment to reach out to us if you need any help.
> 
> To the officers involved in the ongoing search efforts; you exemplify the professionalism and dedication that Canadians know they can expect from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
> 
> Through difficult terrain, voracious bugs, all night shifts, and knowing you could be confronted by a dangerous fugitive at any moment, you never wavered in your duty, and I am incredibly proud of you all.
> 
> I would also like to thank the RCAF and RCMP Divisions from across the country who supplied incredible support to Manitoba over the last week.
> 
> While the search in northern Manitoba is being scaled down, it is not over, not by any means.
> 
> I want to assure everyone that the RCMP is continuing to work on this investigation and will not stop until there is a resolution.
> 
> –30–​


Also attached if link doesn't work.


----------



## Remius

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> The US border with Canada is on alert should the killers try to cross. For two untrained teens they have either been very lucky to escape arrest. It may be a tactic to make the bad guys think that the RCMP have given up, but its possible that the lads are dead.



Lucky for sure.  I don’t think they are that bright.

They got stopped once and lucked out.  They were helped by locals after getting stuck in the muck.  Again luck and timing.  The only thing they did “right” was get the hell out of B.C. as fast as they could to get a solid head start.  If they aren’t already dead or dying they will slip up again.


----------



## daftandbarmy

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> A bit more detail from the RCMP in MB:



The Mounties always get their man...


“Thanks to the vigilance of Major Irvine and the energy of Captain Winder, of the N.W. Mounted Police, another attempt to smuggle whiskey has been frustrated by the arrest of three men, who were tried, found guilty and sentenced to pay a fine of five hundred dollars each or be imprisoned for the minor period of six months. They preferred the former. Horses were sacrificed for the arrest, but the M.P.’s are worse than bloodhounds when they scent the track of a smuggler, and they fetch their men every time.”

https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2015/04/13/history-april-13-the-rcmp-always-get-their-man/


----------



## mariomike

Reminds me of the "Mantracker" TV show.


----------



## tomahawk6

I didnt know there was rail service in the area and maybe thats how they have escaped the search.


----------



## The Bread Guy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I didnt know there was rail service in the area ...


The line is there, but the service is once every few days, though, not daily - I stand to be corrected, but I don't think there's scheduled stops between Winnipeg and Churchill, either.  If that's the case, they'd have to hop on a quickly-moving train - although who knows _what_ these guys'll try, right?


----------



## FSTO

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> The line is there, but the service is once every few days, though, not daily - I stand to be corrected, but I don't think there's scheduled stops between Winnipeg and Churchill, either.  If that's the case, they'd have to hop on a quickly-moving train - although who knows _what_ these guys'll try, right?



There are stops at each little hamlet from The Pas to Churchill and this is far far from a quickly moving train.


----------



## The Bread Guy

FSTO said:
			
		

> There are stops at each little hamlet from The Pas to Churchill and this is far far from a quickly moving train.


Less unlikely, then - thanks for that.


----------



## AbdullahD

FSTO said:
			
		

> There are stops at each little hamlet from The Pas to Churchill and this is far far from a quickly moving train.



Is it a traditional via or via esque type train?

If so.. sometimes.. they leave doors open on their trains and security is not very tight at all.. that they could have boarded the VIA at a station and exited easy enough. If we are pursuing the escape by train scenario.. well even if it was all locked up.. you can buy the keys easy enough to get on/in and lots of youtube channels exist on how to train hop.

If it was a freight train.. to easy to jump on and go and if their is freight service out of there.. assuming they had the brains they could have jumped on a freight train and exited easy enough. I'm guessing trains are not or were not getting searched. Roll outs by train crews can very easily miss a couple dedicated people trying to hide.

This imo could be a more likely scenario.. then them evading the rcmp and caf for a week in the woods... but yeah.. thats my arm chairing for the day.

Abdullah


----------



## BDTyre

The passenger trains were being searched, but I don't have any context as to how thoroughly...I just saw a few pictures in news articles.


----------



## tomahawk6

I know that Canada is different from Alasa but the Alaska RR runs between Fairbanks and Anchorage and they will stop for hitchhikers and people living in the bush.


----------



## AbdullahD

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I know that Canada is different from Alasa but the Alaska RR runs between Fairbanks and Anchorage and they will stop for hitchhikers and people living in the bush.



Generally if we see people in distress we will arrange help. I work on frieght so.. stopping times makes it not very practicable for us.

But if someone is in need, help will be rendered. Via from what I understand is even more liberal than us in that regard... so who knows.. maybe rode a train out before they were known.

Abdullah


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Plus due to the condition of the tracks there the top speed of the train would be significantly less.


----------



## dapaterson

The Winnipeg / Churchill train covers about 1700 km (just over 1000 miles) in 2 days / 2 nights; it's definitely not an express.

https://www.viarail.ca/en/explore-our-destinations/trains/regional-trains/winnipeg-churchill


----------



## The Bread Guy

Latest from the Ontario Provincial Police …


> FROM/DE: Criminal Investigation Branch                     DATE:  August 2, 2019
> 
> OPP ISSUE PUBLIC SAFETY WARNING
> 
> No Confirmed Sighting of British Columbia Suspects
> 
> (ORILLIA, ON) - The Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) is currently investigating numerous reports from across the province of suspicious vehicles and or young males believed to be the British Columbia homicide suspects.
> 
> The OPP continues to work with members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and has assigned an investigative team, under the direction of Detective Inspector Matt Watson, Criminal Investigation Branch (CIB) to follow up on all tips received. At this time, the OPP cannot confirm that any of these sightings are of the suspects, Bryer SCHMEGELSKY (18) and Kam McLEOD (19), nor has there been any confirmed sighting in Ontario.
> 
> Members of the public should be vigilant of their personal safety at all time. These two suspects are considered dangerous. If observed, do not approach them and call police immediately.
> 
> Any person with information regarding this investigation should immediately contact the OPP at 1-888-310-1122 or call 9-1-1. Do NOT report on social media as valuable time is lost should it be a confirmed sighting.
> 
> -30-​


----------



## tomahawk6

This pair must be getting help or they would have been caught by now IMO. 

https://www.9news.com.au/national/canada-double-murder-hunt-for-canadian-teens-moves-to-ontario-world-news/eda13563-ce90-46d6-9f02-811087342ec6


----------



## Humphrey Bogart

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> This pair must be getting help or they would have been caught by now IMO.
> 
> https://www.9news.com.au/national/canada-double-murder-hunt-for-canadian-teens-moves-to-ontario-world-news/eda13563-ce90-46d6-9f02-811087342ec6



Northern Canada is too big and too remote.  They will most likely never be found.  

Reminds me of Kevin Vermette.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Humphrey Bogart said:
			
		

> Northern Canada is too big and too remote.  They will most likely never be found.


Not impossible that if they ended up sticking around in northern MB, muskeg could have been a bigger hazard than they figured when they were "surviving" online.


----------



## OldSolduer

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Not impossible that if they ended up sticking around in northern MB, muskeg could have been a bigger hazard than they figured when they were "surviving" online.



It wouldn’t surprise me if the wild creatures that inhabit the area took exception to them being there.


----------



## Old Sweat

I note the lack of any reports re credit card activity, non-payment at gas pumps, or missing or stolen vehicles. Mind you, this could be deliberate on the part of the police.


----------



## Petard

I think they're very much alive, and most likely jumped a train, possibly after going some distance through the bush
It's not impossible that they did cover some distance through such difficult terrain, as these two German tourists story show, so long as they have drinkable water
https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/can-the-fugitives-survive-the-manitoba-wilderness-ask-these-german-tourists/


----------



## brihard

Apparently the RCMP is sending a dive team to check part of the Nelson River downstream. A rowboat was found smashed all to hell below a set of rapids, along with a water jug. We’ll see if anything comes of this.


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> Apparently the RCMP is sending a dive team to check part of the Nelson River downstream. A rowboat was found smashed all to hell below a set of rapids, along with a water jug. We’ll see if anything comes of this.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/rcmp-gillam-underwater-search-team-1.5235979


----------



## daftandbarmy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Apparently the RCMP is sending a dive team to check part of the Nelson River downstream. A rowboat was found smashed all to hell below a set of rapids, along with a water jug. We’ll see if anything comes of this.



Would I be a bad boy if I was hoping that the Mounties found those two guys drowned?


----------



## Good2Golf

daftandbarmy said:
			
		

> Would I be a bad boy if I was hoping that the Mounties found those two guys drowned?



Not badder than the rest of us. :nod:


----------



## tomahawk6

Think of the money spent on trying to catch two killers.


----------



## daftandbarmy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Think of the money spent on trying to catch two killers.



I'm thinking of the poor donut shop owners who are missing their regular customers


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Think of the money spent on trying to catch two killers.


       If they're dead then it'll work out in the taxpayers favour instead of a huge trial and a few life sentences....


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> Think of the money spent on trying to catch two killers.



At what amount should we stop looking for murderers?

Murders in Canada usually fall into three categories: (1) Family/passionate crimes murder - the largest category and usually the fastest and easiest ones to solve; (2) Gang related/Bar altercation type - less easy to solve but of no great import to the public so long as it is gang/mafia/bikers club members doing it to one another only; and, (3) The rest, which includes serial killers and generally killers on the lose with no qualms about killing whenever they think they are recognised. They are usually killers without a specific motive other than just the thrill of killing., and are as a result the most dangerous for the population at large.

These two kids are in the last category, so IMHO, no money or effort should be spared in finding them and puting an end to their activities.


----------



## medicineman

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> If they're dead then it'll work out in the taxpayers favour instead of a huge trial and a few life sentences....



What he said


----------



## tomahawk6

What I said was poorly worded. Of course law enforcement will pull out all the stops to catch anyone who is a threat to the public. Two untrained kids were able to avoid capture at quite a cost.I was thinking these guys may have gotten some help from people familiar with the area. I dont know if trained special forces could have avoided capture.


----------



## AbdullahD

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> What I said was poorly worded. Of course law enforcement will pull out all the stops to catch anyone who is a threat to the public. Two untrained kids were able to avoid capture at quite a cost.I was thinking these guys may have gotten some help from people familiar with the area. I dont know if trained special forces could have avoided capture.



Maybe the trained special forces would still be alived because these  two.. 'people' are not. Hopefully.

Abdullah

P.s I care not the court of public opinion, those who murder innocent people intentionally and often.. deserve the same.


----------



## BDTyre

It looks like they found some clues on the river bank:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/fox-lake-life-not-back-to-normal-1.5237174


----------



## brihard

Manitoba RCMP just announced they’ve found the two, dead.


----------



## Remius

Brihard said:
			
		

> Manitoba RCMP just announced they’ve found the two, dead.



Good riddance.


----------



## BDTyre

I wonder if their deaths will be determined to be accidental or intentional...as from what I understand, they did leave behind some personal effects at the boat. Was it to lighten their load or to leave a hint that their corpses could be found nearby?


----------



## Colin Parkinson

I suspect more details will come to light when their bodies are confirmed. Likely clothing makes it very likely it's them, but they may have had their faces chewed off by wildlife. It will be interesting to see the estimated time of death.


----------



## BDTyre

Colin P, I was thinking that too...how long have they been there...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Brihard said:
			
		

> Manitoba RCMP just announced they’ve found the two, dead.


More from the RCMP info-machine ...


> *Significant announcement from Assistant Commissioner Jane MacLatchy regarding the search for the BC suspects in the Gillam area*
> August 7, 2019
> Winnipeg, Manitoba
> 
> News release
> 
> Over the last two weeks, our officers have worked tirelessly to find the suspects wanted in connection to the homicides in British Columbia.
> 
> While there were no confirmed sightings since July 22nd, our officers never gave up in their search efforts – following-up on every lead, considering all options, and using every available resource.
> 
> Our officers knew that we just needed to find that one piece of evidence that could move this search forward.
> 
> On Friday, August 2nd, that one critical piece of evidence was found – items directly linked to the suspects were located on the shoreline of the Nelson River.
> 
> Following this discovery, we were, at last, able to narrow down the search.
> 
> We immediately sent in specialized RCMP teams to begin searching nearby high-probability areas.
> 
> This morning, at approximately 10:00 am, RCMP officers located two male bodies, in the dense brush, within 1 kilometer from where the items were found. This is approximately 8 km from where the burnt vehicle was located.
> 
> At this time, we are confident that these are the bodies of the two suspects wanted in connection with the homicides in British Columbia. An autopsy is being scheduled in Winnipeg to confirm their identities and to determine their cause of death.
> 
> To the families of everyone affected by the series of events over the last few weeks, I know it has been so very difficult and I hope today's announcement can begin to bring some closure.
> 
> I want to thank the communities and the leadership of Gillam, Fox Lake Cree Nation, Ilford War Lake First Nation and York Landing.
> 
> Your lives have been disrupted, many of you lived with uncertainty and fear, but throughout, you were resilient, you came together as communities and you helped our officers get the job done.
> 
> To the officers involved in the search efforts; I commend you for your determination, for your innovation, for never giving up, and for working night and day to bring this search to a conclusion.
> 
> This was a search that could not have been successfully achieved without the help from our partners at the Canadian Armed Forces, from RCMP employees who came in from across the country and from multiple private partners.
> 
> Above all however, it was a search that could only be successful if we had strong public engagement and support.
> 
> Thank you to all Canadians for remaining vigilant, for calling us with information and most importantly, for being our partners.
> 
> –30–​


RCMP Manitoba Twitter posts also attached.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Remius said:
			
		

> Good riddance.



True; saves lots of taxpayers money. However, if they had been taken alive may be the police would know why they went on the rampage? Why they killed some people but not others? How they evaded capture for so long? Where did they get their firearms? etc??


----------



## Remius

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> True; saves lots of taxpayers money. However, if they had been taken alive may be the police would know why they went on the rampage? Why they killed some people but not others? How they evaded capture for so long? Where did they get their firearms? etc??



There may be details the police have that’s we haven’t heard yet about a lot of that stuff.  Spending a few days under water is a very effective way of evading capture.  Assuming they drowned.  Time of death I guess will determine how long they were actually “evading” or if they were just both bags of human waste letting nature take its course. 

Saves money yes.  But also rids the world of two scumbags no one will miss.  I hope it was a terrifying and suffering ordeal for both of them.


----------



## Colin Parkinson

As much as they were murdering scumbags, I can also see two more young lives wasted, I suspect one mostly followed along.


----------



## OldSolduer

Colin P said:
			
		

> As much as they were murdering scumbags, I can also see two more young lives wasted, I suspect one mostly followed along.



For what its worth I agree. AND let's remember they had families too.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Remius said:
			
		

> Good riddance.



Hold the phone, here. Are we saying we're glad that these two misunderstood youth, who have yet to be convicted of a crime, are dead? How do we know they didn't just do what many scared kids wrongfully accused of something do, run?  Is there concrete proof beyond the shadow of doubt that these two lambs of god were murderers? Interesting given that the death penalty thread just flared up with all the "kiiling bad people is bad" posts.






Nah, just kidding, burn in the hottest fire of hell, you great wastes of genetic material.


----------



## Remius

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> For what its worth I agree. AND let's remember they had families too.



So did the people,they killed.  Remember they set this all into motion. They are responsible for what they did to their own families.  I feel sorry for their families yes not them,.


----------



## brihard

Colin P said:
			
		

> As much as they were murdering scumbags, I can also see two more young lives wasted, I suspect one mostly followed along.



I’m glad it’s over without anyone else hurt.

It sucks that families will be denied the potential closure of “why”? A robbery gone wrong, followed by a desperate carjacking? Something else? It’s a damned shame that those most hurt by this won’t be able to know...

I’d say it’s quite likely that the investigators probably know much more of the ‘what’ and maybe some of the ‘why’ than they’ve released (as they would have had no reason to compromise the investigation), and now absent a trial we’ll likely never learn that.


----------



## tomahawk6

I guess this gives some closure to the cummunities in the area,


----------



## daftandbarmy

tomahawk6 said:
			
		

> I guess this gives some closure to the cummunities in the area,



Sadly, it might even get worse in some ways as the masses of media story hunters, from around the world, turn up to get some kind of copy for their various channels/papers etc during a slow news summer period....


----------



## Colin Parkinson

Good for the local coffee shop and corner store.


----------



## BDTyre

The bodies were confirmed to be the two, death by suicide and they had been dead for at least several days when they were found.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-homicide-suspects-autopsy-update-1.5243741


----------



## The Bread Guy

CanadianTire said:
			
		

> The bodies were confirmed to be the two, death by suicide and they had been dead for at least several days when they were found.
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-homicide-suspects-autopsy-update-1.5243741


RCMP info-machine version ...


> The Manitoba Medical Examiner has completed the autopsies and confirmed that the two deceased men located in Manitoba on August 7, 2019 were Kam McLeod and Bryer Schmegelsky. Their next of kin have been notified and they have been offered support.
> 
> The RCMP can also confirm that the two died in what appears to be suicides by gunfire. While both individuals were deceased for a number of days before they were found, the exact time and date of their deaths are not known. However, there are strong indications that they had been alive for a few days since last seen in July and during the extensive search efforts in the Gillam area.
> 
> Police can also confirm that two firearms were also located with the two deceased males and forensic analysis is underway in order to definitively confirm that these weapons are connected with the northern BC homicide investigations. The Manitoba RCMP have completed their search of the area where the two male bodies were discovered, approximately 8 km from where Mr. Dyck’s burnt RAV4 was located on July 22, 2019.
> 
> Investigators are now assessing all items located in Manitoba, along with the previous findings related to the three northern BC homicide investigations, in order to gain more clarity into what happened to Leonard Dyck, Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese. The assessment will review all the investigative findings to date, whether it is statements, evidentiary time lines, physical or digital evidence, and the BC RCMP have also have engaged our Behavioural Analysis Unit (BAU).
> 
> The BC RCMP commits that once we have completed that review within the next few weeks, we will be providing the families with an update with respect to the totality of the investigations and then releasing the information publicly.


Text also attached if link doesn't work.


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Interesting to know what type of firearms were found.


----------



## Jonezy76

They took the coward's way out. They deserved worse IMHO.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Videos ...


> The father of one of Canada's suspected highway killers was "emotional" after watching a tightly-guarded 30-second video recorded by Bryer Schmegelsky and Kam McLeod before they took their own lives deep in the Manitoba wilderness.
> 
> Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) had initially refused Alan Schmegelsky access to his son's video, which was recorded on a mobile phone and has been described as a last will and testament.
> 
> After weeks of negotiation, Mr Schmegelsky was forced to sign a non-disclosure agreement before he was allowed to watch the short clip.
> 
> The experience was "difficult" and Mr Schmegelsky was "very emotional" afterwards, according to his lawyer, Sarah Leamon, who last Thursday also viewed the 18-year-old's final words to the world.
> 
> Bryer Schmegelsky and his friend McLeod allegedly killed three people, including Australian Lucas Fowler and his American girlfriend Chynna Deese, on a murderous spree across Canada.
> 
> Speaking with nine.com.au, Ms Leamon said it was "inappropriate" Mr Schmegelsky had to fight to see the video, which Bryer's mother had already watched.
> 
> "That's the question we've been asking the whole time. If they were going to show the video to the mother, why wouldn't they have also shown it to the father?" Ms Leamon said.
> 
> Ms Leamon said she had seen communication between Bryer and his father and described that relationship as "fairly typical".
> 
> Bryer was known to have struggled after his parents divorced, when he was just five. He and his mother relocated to Vancouver Island, while his father stayed in Victoria.
> 
> The 30-second clip is just one of several videos the alleged killers recorded as they evaded police on a huge manhunt stretching 5000km across Canada, The Globe and Mail reports.
> 
> Police have refused to confirm or deny the existence of other videos which could hold important clues about possible motives behind the string of Canada highway killings.
> 
> Ms Leamon told nine.com.au RCMP could release the conclusions of their intensive investigation over the coming weeks ...


More @ link


----------



## PMedMoe

I think Alan Schmegelsky is getting _way_  too much press time.   :


----------



## AbdullahD

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I think Alan Schmegelsky is getting _way_  too much press time.   :



Yep, I can not agree more and the more I see him the sketchier I think he is.

Abdullah


----------



## dimsum

I'll give Nine the benefit of the doubt since they're Aussie, but Victoria is on Vancouver Island.


----------



## NavyShooter

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I think Alan Schmegelsky is getting _way_  too much press time.   :



Apples seldom fall far from the tree...so this guy's seeming narcissistic responses to the whole circumstance trying to make it about himself makes me wonder about his own background.  

It would be interesting to see if the DNA checks that they have almost undoubtedly done on his son bring up any parental/relational DNA hits in whatever registry/cold-case files they may have out in that neck of the woods.

I'm certain that's occurred to other folks than just me.

NS


----------



## Retired AF Guy

Apparently some people weren't happy on how the RCMP carried out the search.



> Angry emails to PMO question RCMP competence in hunt for B.C. homicide suspects
> 
> Austin Grabish
> 
> Canadians from coast to coast wrote to the Prime Minister's Office during the hunt for the country's two most wanted men this summer, some expressing outrage with how the search for Bryer Schmegelsky and Kam McLeod was handled.
> 
> And more than a month after the bodies of the two men were found, a former RCMP deputy commissioner says there are still unanswered questions about the case.
> 
> In roughly a dozen emails sent to the PMO, obtained by CBC News through an access to information request, writers expressed dismay that the two B.C. homicide suspects were able to evade police during a weeks-long search this summer, and criticized the lack of information provided by Mounties and the government.
> 
> "The treatment of Canadians by the RCMP during the manhunt for McLeod and Schmegelsky and the autopsy etc is completely unacceptable," one Burlington, Ont., writer said to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale in an Aug. 12 email, after the search had ended.
> 
> "Heads at the RCMP should roll, Goodale should be fired," the voter said, adding they thought this would become an election issue.
> 
> Since the bodies of McLeod and Schmegelsky were discovered on Aug. 7, RCMP have said little about the investigation, and have not indicated any possible motive for the killings in which the two men were suspects.
> 
> The search for the two began in July, after the discovery of the bodies of Australian Lucas Fowler and his American girlfriend, Chynna Deese, who were found shot and killed in northern B.C. on July 15. McLeod and Schmegelsky were considered suspects in the double homicide.
> 
> McLeod and Schmegelsky were charged on July 24 with second-degree murder in the killing of Leonard Dyck, a botany lecturer at the University of British Columbia. He was found dead on July 19. Those charges were recently abated, as the suspects are dead.
> 
> On July 23, police said Schmegelsky and McLeod were suspects in the three deaths, sparking a search focused in northern Manitoba — where a burned-out vehicle used by the fugitives was found on July 22.
> 
> During the more than two-week-long search, people from Vancouver to Antigonish, N.S., wrote to the Prime Minister and Goodale.
> 
> 'I am embarrassed and disappointed'
> 
> "I am usually proud to be Canadian and feel relatively safe in our country. Not so much now. I am embarrassed and disappointed at how we are being viewed by the world," an Antigonish resident wrote in a July 29 email.
> 
> "And technically, we all have reason to be afraid. We are still potential targets. And that is totally unacceptable."
> 
> The writer took exception to initial comments from B.C. RCMP, who told CBC on July 20 there was nothing to indicate a pickup truck fire and the discovery of a man's body were linked to the double homicide of Fowler and Deese.
> 
> "At this point there is nothing to indicate those two investigations are linked. I am not sure why or how those two were ever linked. That information did not come from us," wrote B.C. RCMP Sgt. Janelle Shoihet at the time.
> 
> The body was later found to be Dyck's, and the truck to have been driven by McLeod and Schmegelsky.
> 
> 'Slow to sound the alarm': Nova Scotia writer
> 
> "The RCMP were slow to sound the alarm as to the gravity and potential danger of this case," the Antigonish writer said.
> 
> Asked for comment on the emails, the Prime Minister's Office deferred to Goodale's office, who deferred the request to the RCMP.
> 
> Shoihet said this week she can appreciate members of the public criticizing the Mounties' decisions, but said every decision police made was based on information they had at the time.
> 
> "As soon as we had verified information linking to the two investigations, we provided that information to the public. We cannot provide information we do not have," she wrote in an email.
> 
> She said over nine days, the RCMP issued nine news releases and held five press conferences to keep communities informed and up to date.
> 
> One concern during the manhunt came from a Grande Prairie, Alta., resident who wrote to the Prime Minister's Office on July 30 to ask why military forces hadn't been deployed to help work through the tough northern Manitoba terrain.
> 
> It's one of at least two emails the PM got asking for military forces to be called in.
> "These young men need to be found so people of [Gillam, Man.], and other Canadians can return to a normal lifestyle," the writer said.
> 
> "There is never hesitation to deploy military personnel help in other world countries."
> A July 26 email from Goodale's office says the RCMP were going to ask for a military plane to help search for the two suspects, who were presumed to be near Gillam, Man.
> 
> A military Hercules aircraft from Winnipeg arrived in Gillam on July 27 — four days after the RCMP first said the suspects may be in Manitoba.
> 
> Use of civilian aircraft questioned
> 
> Peter German, a former RCMP deputy commissioner, said calling in the military is a last resort in situations like the manhunt. "Quite frankly … you don't bring in the military until you've exhausted your own assets," he said in a phone interview from Vancouver.
> But German, who had praise for the officers who worked on the search, wondered why RCMP air resources weren't used, instead of the military's.
> 
> "The RCMP has the capability to do night searching with their helicopters. Their pilots are trained for it [and] with night-vision goggles, can do things that civilian pilots can't. I don't know [if] that question has been answered."
> 
> The RCMP said they did use one of their planes with infrared capabilities in the search, on the evening of July 23. Drones were also sent to the area to assist with the search.
> RCMP said they used one of their helicopters, but it didn't arrive in Manitoba until Aug. 3. This was in addition to front-line and tactical officers, police dogs, forensic identification specialists and major crime investigators who were sent to Gillam.
> 
> German said it's interesting that Mounties have been so tight-lipped following the discovery of the suspects' bodies, and following reports that McLeod and Schmegelsky made videos while on the run.
> 
> "Generally speaking the concerns over evidence, release of information [and] so forth disappear, or certainly dissipate, after death," he said, adding RCMP are likely treading carefully in an effort to minimize harm to the victims' families.
> 
> "It could be inflammatory. It could be embarrassing. It could be nasty. We just don't know," he said, speaking of the reported videos.
> 
> He also questioned how the RCMP communicated to the public during the search.
> "I think the big issue that I kept hearing was information to the public. Was the public receiving enough information and was it real-time information? … Were people at the right level communicating information?"
> 
> Sgt. Shoihet said B.C. RCMP do not have any definitive plans for an update on the case.
> On Aug. 12, police said a public update would be provided once a review, initially expected to take a few weeks, was complete.
> 
> German thinks the public would be satisfied if the RCMP revealed what they think was the motive behind the killings.
> 
> "Why did this happen to what appeared to be ordinary individuals — young, young men? What happened? What was the trigger? Was it video games? Was it violence? What was it?
> "I think that's critical."



Article Link


----------



## brihard

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Apparently some people weren't happy on how the RCMP carried out the search.
> 
> Article Link



Apparently some people don’t have a clue what they’re talking about.

For a manhunt with national profile, a couple dozen cranky emails is pretty par for the course. I suspect not one of them has any notion of the difficulties and complexities in a situation like that


----------



## Infanteer

This is like Joe-SixPack from Dartmouth writing in to say they don't like how the Battle Group in Latvia is conducting coalition training...nothing to see here...


----------



## dapaterson

No one in Dartmouth would be caught dead with anything less than a 2-4.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Infanteer said:
			
		

> This is like Joe-SixPack from Dartmouth writing in to say they don't like how the Battle Group in Latvia is conducting coalition training...nothing to see here...


As much as taxpayers have a right to share their concerns, as others smarter than me have said, there's opinion and there's informed opinion.


----------



## Jarnhamar

12 Canadians emailed the PMO to bitch and complain - national news right there lol


----------



## dapaterson

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> 12 Canadians emailed the PMO to bitch and complain - national news right there lol



If you're claiming the $5 ATIP fee from your employer, you'd better file a story...


----------



## The Bread Guy

Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> 12 Canadians emailed the PMO to bitch and complain - national news right there lol


The story says "roughly 12", so it may not even be _that_ many.


----------



## The Bread Guy

A fair bit more detail out of the RCMP info-machine on what happened from start to finish -- this statement by Assistant Commissioner Kevin Hackett ...


> Thank you all for attending today. My name is Kevin Hackett I am the Assistant Commissioner and Criminal Operations Officer in charge of Federal, Investigative Services and Organized Crime in British Columbia.
> 
> As per the commitment made six weeks ago, I am here today to provide an overview of the triple homicide investigation in northern BC, and the subsequent search for the accused suspects.
> From the time we first received the call about the suspicious deaths of two individuals south of Liard River Hot Springs on July 15th to the day we located the two deceased suspects almost 3,000 kilometres away in Manitoba 23 days later, significant work has been done to answer the many questions that we the police, the families of the deceased, and many members of the public had.
> 
> Over the course of the investigation and search for the two accused, the BC RCMP dedicated a large number of resources and specialized units to this complex and fast moving investigation. There were up to 160 police officers working extended shifts on this investigation until the deceased suspects were ultimately located. The RCMP received over 1500 tips from the public through the dedicated phone tip line, reports to 911 call centers, front counter reports to police detachments and Crime Stoppers. Between July 16, 2019 and August 4, 2019, nineteen judicial authorizations were executed to further the investigation. An extensive amount of CCTV video was collected during the investigation and thousands of hours of recordings were reviewed and analyzed.
> 
> During the investigation a number of Partner Agencies assisted the RCMP. This included American and Australian Police Agencies, the BC Prosecution Service, the Canadian Border Services Agency, the Coroner Services in British Columbia and Manitoba, Conservation Officers, Search and Rescue and the Canadian Military.
> 
> We have taken the totality of the investigative findings – including a review of all digital and physical evidence, statements, tips and forensic examination reports - and have compiled a public report that we are issuing today.
> 
> While we have been able to gain greater clarity on the movements and actions of the two accused, we respect that the answers have not reduced the trauma and grief experienced by the families of Lucas Fowler, Chynna Deese and Leonard Dyck. We ensured that the victims’ families were made aware of the information that we would be releasing publicly and we continue to provide them with support. We also continue to support the families of the accused.
> 
> The report does address a number of areas and specifics in greater detail, but I would like to highlight and confirm the following:
> 
> We uncovered no information that predicted or forecasted the homicides that took place in northern BC. Based on the firearms lab results, crime scene examination, timelines of suspects and suspect recorded admissions, we believe that no other suspects are responsible for the three homicides or are involved in anyway. The murders appear to be random and crimes of opportunity.
> The investigative theory is that McLeod and Schmegelsky came across Lucas Fowler’s van and targeted Lucas Fowler and Chynna Deese for unknown reasons. They shot and killed the couple before continuing up into the Yukon.
> The two returned to BC days later because they were having vehicle issues and came across Leonard Dyck outside of Dease Lake and shot and killed him.
> The suspects then burned their vehicle to cover up evidence and delay police before stealing Mr. Dyck’s vehicle, money and a number of personal items – all of which facilitated further escape ultimately toward Eastern Canada..
> Once they reached Manitoba they again burned the stolen vehicle and attempted to continue foot, before they realized their efforts were failing. It is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact.
> Two rifles were found with the two deceased suspects. These rifles were examined by the firearms lab and were determined to be the same weapons used in the Fort Nelson and Dease Lake homicides, as well as their own deaths. One of the two guns was determined to be same gun legally purchased by the suspects at Cabela’s, outdoor equipment store, in Nanaimo on July 12th.
> A digital camera belonging to Mr. Dyck was also discovered. It contained six videos and three still images. In the videos, the suspects took responsibility for all three murders. They indicated no remorse for their actions and their intentions to potentially kill others. They also described their intent to commit suicide and their wish to be cremated.
> These videos do not contain any information regarding the motive behind their actions nor do they provide specifics regarding the murders.
> 
> While a number of additional facts and findings are being released today, the RCMP has chosen not to release the videos recovered.
> 
> The RCMP Behavioural Analysis Unit (BAU) conducted a review of the videos and was concerned with a behaviour called "identification", which is considered a "warning behaviour" in the context of a threat assessment.
> 
> The videos may influence or inspire other individuals to carry out a targeted act of violence, essentially creating copycat killers. In BAU's experience, those who commit mass casualty attacks or similar acts of violence are heavily inspired by previous attackers and their behaviours.
> 
> It is believed that the suspects may have made the video recordings for notoriety. Releasing them would not only be disrespectful to the families of the deceased – who are also concerned about the impacts of the release - and it could sensationalize the actions of the suspects. By not releasing the videos we want to mitigate the potential of other individuals being inspired to commit similar acts of violence. For these reasons, the videos will not be released to the public by the RCMP.
> 
> I would like to thank our RCMP colleagues in BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba for their support as well as all of the other Law enforcement agencies that offered assistance. In particular, I would like to once again acknowledge the RCMP in Manitoba who lead an exhaustive and challenging search in that province. I would also like to thank the public, whether it was the hundreds of individuals who came forward with information, the individuals, businesses or agencies who assisted our investigators on the ground in Northern BC and the other communities that were directly impacted. We would like to also acknowledge and thank the greater Canadian public at large who showed vigilance and patience as we worked diligently to advance the investigation.
> 
> We know this file had impacts provincially, nationally and internationally. Many have been affected, but none more so than the grieving Fowler, Deese and Dyck families. We are hopeful that the release of the public report and our investigative findings provides greater clarity into this investigation and search.
> 
> Thank you.


... and this "Overview of Fort Nelson and Dease Lake Homicide Investigation" - suspect movement maps also attached -- the conclusion:


> ... The Manitoba Medical Examiner completed the autopsies and confirmed that the two deceased males were McLeod and Schmegelsky and they died from gunshot wounds. Based on the autopsy findings, the firearms lab report, analysis of the scene and the content of the videos it is believed that McLeod shot Schmegelsky before shooting himself in a suicide pact.
> 
> Based on the firearms lab results, similar offence pattern, timelines of suspects and admissions from McLeod and Schmegelsky, no other suspects are responsible for the three homicides.
> 
> There were two SKS type firearms used in the offences, one of which has being identified as being purchased by McLeod on July 12, 2019 at the Cabela’s Store in Nanaimo, BC. The second is an older style SKS with numerous serial numbers indicating parts from different weapons were put together over the years. Investigators were unable to identify where this older SKS weapon or parts originated from.
> 
> Interviews of McLeod and Schmegelsky’s families, teachers and friends, seized evidence from search warrants and the six video recordings did not reveal their motivation for the murders. The investigative theory is that McLeod and Schmegelsky came across Fowler’s van and targeted Fowler and Deese for unknown reasons before continuing up into the Yukon. McLeod and Schmegelsky returned to BC because they were having vehicle issues and came across Dyck who they killed for unknown reasons. McLeod and Schmegelsky burned their vehicle to cover up evidence and delay police before stealing Dyck’s vehicle to facilitate further escape ...


A range of different takes from MSM @ Google News here.


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## Retired AF Guy

Just finished listening to the Arlene Bynon Show (SiriusXM) and her guest (G & M reporter ) stated that the rifle legally bought at the Cabelas store in Nanamio was a SKS.


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## Jonezy76

Retired AF Guy said:
			
		

> Just finished listening to the Arlene Bynon Show (SiriusXM) and her guest (G & M reporter ) stated that the rifle legally bought at the Cabelas store in Nanamio was a SKS.



More "ammo" for the gun grabbers. A deadly semi-auto assault military weapon legally purchased by a legal licence owner....  :facepalm:


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## Colin Parkinson

Because murders by legal gun owners are unique and rare. Not to mention most get solved. Unlike the gang killings where more than half go unsolved.


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## BurnDoctor

Looked after a patient today shot by a handgun in an almost certainly gang-related incident - his second time being shot. Pretty much prep to guarantee that gun bans wouldn’t have prevented either incident. SMH.


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## The Bread Guy

The latest on costings ...


> The final price tag attached to a manhunt in northern Manitoba last summer could be nearly $1.7 million, after the military announced the tally for its involvement was $123,000.
> 
> The cost for the Canadian Armed Forces covers the price of deploying personnel and two aircraft for the expansive search effort for Kam McLeod, 19, and Bryer Schmegelsky, 18, as well as maintenance and support needs, the military said in an email this month.
> 
> The $122,958 bill does not account for any salaries, nor the cost of equipment the military already owns.
> 
> In addition to the military's bill, RCMP in B.C. spent $750,000 to investigate the three homicides for which the duo were wanted. Manitoba RCMP have not provided an exact figure for their costs, but have previously said they were "expected to be well under $800,000." ...


More @ link


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## CBH99

I wonder if that includes funds they would normally be paying anyway, re: fuel for vehicles, salaries, etc.

I'm sure there will be some additional costs, yes.  But the members are going to be getting paid their salaries & vehicles require gas.  Kind of sounds like non-news news...


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## kev994

One of the articles I saw specifically said it did not include salaries.


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## Cloud Cover

Salaries: from the article: "The $122,958 bill does not account for any salaries, nor the cost of equipment the military already owns."

Fuel it's unclear: from the article: "The cost for the Canadian Armed Forces covers the price of deploying personnel and two aircraft ....  as well as maintenance and support needs, the military said..." 

Something tells me it costs more than $122,958 to fuel up 2 x Hercules for a weeks work.


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## ballz

CBH99 said:
			
		

> I wonder if that includes funds they would normally be paying anyway, re: fuel for vehicles, salaries, etc.
> 
> I'm sure there will be some additional costs, yes.  But the members are going to be getting paid their salaries & vehicles require gas.  Kind of sounds like non-news news...



For Provisions of Service, if it's for an OGD then the invoice is supposed to be done up for incremental costs.

Salaries would not be included (unless Class A PRes were utilized), costs of using equipment that is already owned would not be included, etc. Fuel, however, would be. I'm not sure why you are thinking the fuel for vehicles would not be an incremental cost of doing something. Edit to add: meals, incidentals, accommodations, etc. would all be incremental costs as well.

I don't know how much it costs to run Hercs so I can't guess the accuracy of the price. To say we are pretty poor at accurately cost capturing / financial reporting in the CAF would be the understatement of 2020. Also, the Provision of Service invoice isn't based off of actual data, it's based off of an estimate.... however if there was an ATI they probably tried to use DRMIS data which, like I said, is suspect at best.


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## kev994

ballz said:
			
		

> For Provisions of Service, if it's for an OGD then the invoice is supposed to be done up for incremental costs.
> 
> Salaries would not be included (unless Class A PRes were utilized), costs of using equipment that is already owned would not be included, etc. Fuel, however, would be. I'm not sure why you are thinking the fuel for vehicles would not be an incremental cost of doing something.
> 
> I don't know how much it costs to run Hercs so I can't guess the accuracy of the price. To say we are pretty poor at accurately cost capturing / financial reporting in the CAF would be the understatement of 2020. Also, the Provision of Service invoice isn't based off of actual data, it's based off of an estimate.... however if there was an ATI they probably tried to use DRMIS data which, like I said, is suspect at best.


Jet fuel alone it uses 5,000 lbs per hour. It costs roughly $1 a lb.


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## ballz

kev994 said:
			
		

> Jet fuel alone it uses 5,000 lbs per hour. It costs roughly $1 a lb.



Ack.. like I said, I have no idea about that stuff. Each level of financial authority also has the ability to write down the invoice. This is pure speculation, but for example, if the aircrews obtained certain required hours, a Commander might have the latitude within policy to write the bill down by quite a lot. And of course, the MND has the authority to write it down to whatever he wants.

I've seen a lot of PoS invoices written off down to $0 because the Comd was achieving COMREL... i.e. the Heroes Hockey Challenge stuff that the PPCLI foundation spearheads every year.

So who knows where they are pulling the $123k from... an Provisions of Service estimate, a PoS invoice that was written down, DRMIS actuals, etc... My guess with how fast this stuff spools up would be DRMIS actuals which were poorly captured and a lot of expenses did not hit the Internal Order.


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