# Direct Entry Officer (DEO) questions [Merged]



## Jug

Hi All,

Has anybody out there signed and got into the military as DEO recently and has a university degree in Electrical Eng. I‘m in the same boat (interview on Oct.21), and would like to hear your experience.


----------



## humint

I‘m in the process, just waiting for the board interview. What would you like to know about the initial interview? 

There appears to be some big signing money for people with eng/sci degrees. Lucky sod. They aren‘t offering a thing for people like me with a background in psych and pol sci/intel studies. Well, may be a free kick in the @ss.

Email me at humint@canada.com if you want.


----------



## 30 for 30

I‘d like to know about the initial interview...any advice would be appreciated. I joined as an NCM in the 90s and did the NCM interview back then. I‘ve just signed on as DEO so my initial interview should happen in the next few months.
When you mention a board interview, do you mean you will be required to actually sit before a board? I‘ve heard that a board simply sits down and reviews your application as a group, somewhere back east. Thanks.


----------



## Jug

Hey...I already got my kick in the ***  in the private sector...along with the ‘ol pink slip...hence my signing up. So you‘re in good company. And ya, the signing bonus that they told me about was 40K.

About the interview...just want to know what types of questions, the mood, etc.


----------



## humint

Check out the posts  _what did you wear and what is the test_ under the CDN ARMY section, there is a lot of discussion about the process.

But, just to fill you in, I am unsure about the board interview. For the res force, you actually meet with the board and they evaluate your application and ask you questions. I have heard the same is true for the reg force, but I can‘t confirm that. May be one of the otehr guys, such as Ian M or Digger can give you a hand on this one -- they know what is going on.

As for the initial officer interview, the recruitment officer will attempt to judge your character and will ask you questions such as why do you want to join, why do you want to be an officer, explain your leadership skills, how is your work experience relevant to the forces, etc. They will also ask questions about your study/work habits/volunteer experience all the way back through high school -- which is for me a long time ago -- so it is always best to go in with an idea of what and when you did things. The interview is not hard, just be yourself. Some prep is key, however, because you don‘t want to be stumbling along trying to remember when things in your life happened. Try to think of the ways in which your prior experience (i.e. volunteer, work, study, sports, hobbies, etc) are relevant to the forces. It is also a definite plus if you show some lateral thinking skills.


----------



## Jug

Can you give more details on the lateral thinking skills you‘re speaking of.


----------



## humint

Lateral thinking -- as in, thinking outside of the box. They may ask a question such as: explain a situation where you had to assume leadership -- what did you do and why? Or, explain a situation that you had to think quickly, etc. Show that you can think on your feet and that your decisions are rational and result in a favoured outcome. Not all situations demand straightforward responses -- talk about a difficult situation and how you solved it in an atypical fashion.


----------



## Ian

There was only one interview last spring when I applied for ROTP entry; the initial one. It lasted about an hour or so. The interviewer went over my application field-by-field, asking me about basically everything I had written down. Then I was questioned on my MOC choices; it‘s a good idea to know a little bit about the jobs you‘ve chosen. Unit locations, job requirements, current events are all questions that could be asked.

A few hypothetical questions were also asked about what i‘d do in certain situations. The best advice is to just be yourself. 

The process could be different for DEO applicants due to the difference in age and experience.

Good luck, I know I had all these kinds of questions before


----------



## 30 for 30

I‘ve got two questions concerning reg force officer entry interviews at CFRC:

1. Can anyone give examples of the questions asked that go beyond "why do you want to be an officer", or "what could you bring to the CF" etc.?

2. On the math portion of the written exam, what types of math should one be familiar with beforehand? I know it‘s fairly basic, but does it get into trig, graphs, probability etc., or is it really just basic fractions, decimals, percentages, geometry...or is it all of the above? Thx.


----------



## Jug

I did the DEO interview in Oct. ..just waiting by the phone right now.

1. For the interview. Most of the questions are very standard interview questions. Nothing really came out of left field for me. They do ask if you about your diversity tolerance, i.e. do you have problems with minorities etc. They do ask if you‘ve taken drugs or have been arrested. My advice would be to do the interview prep on the recruiting web site...it will prepare you quite well for this part of the process.

2. There is no trig, calc or non-linear stuff on the math part of the aptitude test. Most of the questions involve fraction multiplication, division etc. Nothing really hard. 

Most of the questions aren‘t hard in the aplitude test. The challenge is staying focused and answering questions correctly under the stess of a time-limit.

As for the interview...don‘t lie and be yourself.


----------



## griffon

It`s been a few years since I did the interview, but I do recall a blitz of current event questions, along with morality questions (ie.  would you have troubles bombing...ok, but what if there are civilians involved, example a munitions factory).  Other than that, Jug had good advice, don`t lie and just be yourself.


----------



## yogibear

Hi guys,

I‘m glad to have found this message board as I don‘t get a chance to meet members of the CF very often and would like some advice.

I am considering a career change and thinking of joining the DEO program as a legal officer (I‘m a lawyer with 6 years of practice).

Anyone familiar with the office of the JAG and what I should expect career wise (i.e postings, type of work, advancement, living quarters, morale, etc.)

I have visited the JAG website so I am familiar with the official blurb.  What I am interested in is information from someone who is familiar with the office of the JAG or who knows someone there that can provide me with a few tips and general advice as to what I should expect.

Thanks


----------



## Zoomie

Career progression can be very fast in the JAG world.  You will join the CF as a Captain, expect to spend some time at the language school too.


----------



## yogibear

Thanks for the reply Zoomie,

I am already fluently bilingual so I don‘t think I‘ll be going to the language school.

The Jag officer I spoke with over the phone told me that he had joined as a Captain and made Major in 4 years (I‘m not sure if that is fast or not) and that I should probably expect the same.


----------



## Zoomie

Sounds about right. A JAG officer that got in the same time I did is now a Major.  In under 4 years!
  He spent his first posting at Esquimalt where he spent alot of time in Hawaii.  Now he is the prosecutor for western area in Edmonton.


----------



## yogibear

Thanks again zoomie,

Aside from having a higher rank and a better pay what is the advantage of being a Major.

Also, what kind of living quarters should I expect as a captain.


----------



## Anderson56

I attended a Trial Advocacy course with a couple of guys from JAG several years ago.  Both were DEO, one from a family of NCM‘s.  They were very high on what they did for a living.  I spent some time talking to the CF recruiter here, who suggested that Major is usually a fourth year promotion and that promotion up to and including brigadier general is possible, though most don‘t rise higher than LtCol or Col.  He also said that there is a high frequency of foreign posting, and that Washington was a hot spot for JAG officers early in their career in those days.  Before I got too deep into my talks family and the need to chase the almight dollar arose - though I understand the reserves are looking for the occasional JAG type.  I would recommend contacting those working at JAG and getting their reaction.


----------



## KeV

To qualify for the DEO as an Officer you need a baccalaureate (Bachlor‘s degree). But this is a little confusing. You go to college to take what courses? And then what University courses? Do you just take any courses or courses that will help you to be an Officer? 

Could someone please clarify this for me. I‘m just confused. 

Thanks.


----------



## Michael OLeary

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/LF/english/1_3_2_2.asp#Off  



> Direct Entry Officer (DEO)
> This plan is for university graduates with a minimum of a three-year bachelor‘s degree granted by an approved university. The first stop for the DEO applicant is the Recruiting Centre, for up-to-date information of available positions. If selected, Basic Officer Training, Second Language Training and Classification Training will follow.


----------



## Greywolf

Kev, it depends on what trade you want to apply for.  Say, someone wants to be doctor in the military, they would need a medical degree.  An engineer would need an Engineering degree.  What trade are you interested in?


----------



## dimmer

*a degree in forestry would not be favorable if you were applying for logistics officer* 
intell;     mabee thats how its veiwed but do you know that in order to get your degree in forestry you must go through logistics training.


----------



## chipdudeman

I am finishing my degree in Natural Resource Management: Forestry and was told that it was a good degree to have. This was because of the reclamation and rebuilding that goes on after conflicts etc, they need people with an enviro background to help.


----------



## casing

I have two questions concerning DEO contracts/careers.

1. At the conclusion of the 9-year initial engagement, is it common that a second contract is not offered? Under what circumstances might this occur? I‘ve read in the DAODs that the offering of a second contract is not a certainty. I plan to have a 20-year RegF career and I‘d be rather flipped-over if I wasn‘t offered a second contract.

2. Upon enrolling under the DEO plan, if for some reason--say family issues--you want to break your contract after 2, 3, or 4 years, is it possible to CT to the Reserves instead of just releasing?  Or would the general attitude/response be that if you break your contract we don‘t want you and you are out of the CF entirely?

Thanks for any info!


----------



## rormson

Has anyone been through the 2 hour DEO PRes Officer Interview? I know that some Army.ca visitors have posted some very good tips on the "typical" interview , however, since the officer interview is longer I am trying to get a sense for what additional details they look for? (I've applied to 31 CER) Specifically:

How many officers and of what rank conduct the interview? (I am assuming at least a Captain)
Would it be advisable to bring examples of one's past work (i.e. field photos, reports)?
Will they expect one to have an understanding of all the various units in the Brigade or is knowledge of the unit to which you applied sufficient?

Thanks everyone and especially to the experienced personnel out there who take the time to respond and impart their good advice to those of us going through the process.


----------



## Northern Touch

RGO, I have been through the 2 hour officer interview, although it was for RMC, I'm sure it was along the same lines.

Since my interview was for pilot, I had a Lt. or Captian who flew Hercs give me the interview, as well as a person who just sat in the corner and observed the interview.  I later found out that he was actually conducting a psychological evaluation on me.

As for the details, its a great deal more in depth then the normal interview.  The basics are the same, schooling, volunteer work, sports ect.  but they will ask you to go more in depth as to why you did specific things, how you coped with them.  They'll ask you your weak spots, things you need to improve on, and definitly ask you about the trade you are applying for and things that are happening in the CF around the world and country.

Don't bother about bringing any work with you, I'm sure they will have everythign they need.  I did however bring everything that was given to me during my past visits with the reruiting center just incase.  Most likely, you'll walk in there and watch them open your file and pull out your resume, go through that, pull out your references, ask you about them, go through your application form, pull out some specifics they wish to talk about.  Just be prepared to explain many of things you have written down in your app.  They will also look for  examples of leadership qualities and experiences because you will be an Officer in a leadership role in the CF.

On top of that, they will ask you all the standard questions which they ask everyone (I know since ive been asked the same questions exactly the same way twice now).  The nice long drug sheet, ask you which ones you have seen, or seen people on, and if you have a problem rooming with someone of a different sexual orientation.

That's all I can grab off the top of my head right now.  If you have any other questions send me a PM.


----------



## rdschultz

Hmm, I never realized that my interview was any different from what the NCM applicants had to go through.  If it was two hours long, it was just barely so, and it certainly didn't seem that long.  I applied for Reg Force, but I can't imagine that the interview process is much different from the Reserves.

As for your questions (just to back up what Northern Touch said):

I had a Captain interview me.  The other MCC in the office was I believe a Naval Lt.  It could be different elsewhere, but thats what Saskatoon has.

Bring past work?  Advisable, I don't know.  Nothing that I can think of during the interview would've been an appropriate time for me to whip out anything to show the guy.  It certainly can't hurt if you want to bring it, but its not necessary.  

As for expecting  knowledge of the units in the brigade, I'd say probably  not.  For the reserves, I can imagine they want you to have knowledge of your unit, and any other knowledge of the brigade might be beneficial.  But the interview is not intended to be a quiz or a test.  They ask you questions about yourself to make sure you're suitable,  and they ask questions about the CF  to make sure you know what you're getting into. 

Either way, its probably the least stressful job interview I've ever had.


----------



## casing

My DEO RegF interview lasted almost 2 hours and 45 minutes. I interviewed with one officer. A Captain -- Air Navigator.

Make sure you fill our your interview prep form. You don't show it to the interviewer, but it is very good for you to prepare yourself (ie: gets you thinking about some of the things they'll be asking). If you have any certificates or such of appreciation or achievement bring them along, unless you have already included them in the application that you submitted.   If you have any excellent annual evaluations from work, bring those too--but only if they are something that you would be proud to show. Also, think about how you would lead teams in different situtations.   You'll probably get situational questions like that.

Make sure you know at least the basics about the CF in general, the unit you are joining, and the occupation you are applying for (especially!).  Know what training you'll be doing, where, and how long.  Know what an officer's general responsibilities are (as opposed to what an NCM's general responsibilities are).

Other than that, do not try to bluff your way through anything.   If you don't know the answer to something that is asked, just say so. BS won't be approved of. Just be natural and honest.   They want a good impression of your character, not just how much knowledge you can spew out.

Good luck!


----------



## Tyrnagog

Not much more that I can add.  Be honest and forthright.  They respect that.  Give honest opinions when asked, and do not lie, under any circumstances.  It may help to think up some past experiences, such as times when you showed leadership, times you had to deal with a difficult person, etc.  Even if they don't ask you those questions, it's nice to have in your back pocket.  My first interiew was with a captain.  my follow-up interview (a year later) was with a Naval Lt.  

It was a very professional interview, which is what you should remember.  Applying as an officer, you need to show them that you are a professional in all aspects of your life.  They are looking as much for the people as they are the qualifications.


----------



## casing

Your point 1 is specific for NCM positions.  For DEO, the only time "when you applied" becomes a factor is if you applied in time for the selection board!  Other than that, good question and I would like to know also.


----------



## Tyrnagog

IIRC...

All applicants are given a score based on the selection criteria (including interview, cfat, relevant experience, etc.)  Then, they sort all potential applicants based on their score, and  pull from the top of that score and work down until all positions are filled.  the remainder, in the order they were scored, are the wait list.

I believe this was how the Lt. (N) explained it to me during my re-interview...


----------



## kastanis

Hello,

I am a recent university graduate who has decided to apply for a position in the CF.  I submitted my complete application May 26, and my three occupational choices were PLT, AERE and CELE, in that order.  Obviously my degree is an engineering degree, but I had always wanted to fly aeroplanes growing up, so I though I would give it a shot.  Of course I will still be very happy with a position as an engineering officer.

I wrote the CFAT on July 6, and did my fitness test on July 14.  The fitness examiner told me I would be contacted in the next week regarding my results.  The next steps, I understand, are the medical and interview.  Now I have some questions which I am hoping that some members here might be able to help me with.  FIrst of all, I understand that the DEO selection boards meet twice a year, in the spring and in the fall.  Given the date that I applied, and the rate at which my application seems to be going, what are my chances of being considered for the fall DEO selection?  The second question I have is about the times of the year that the IAP/BOTP is run.  I understand that there are courses beginning in September.  I am sure I will not be starting then, but when is the next round, January?

I am eager to begin a career in the forces, and uncertainty makes me even more eager.  At present my life is on hold pending this application.  I have be applying for other jobs in the meantime, but I have been honest with employers about my pending CF application, and no one is interested in someone who may well be "taking off for the army".  So I have gotten myself a job in a warehouse to keep busy, but understandably that is not what I had envisioned myself doing after having graduated with a B.A.Sc. in mechanical engineering.  Any help or advice that anyone may be able to give will be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## Michael OLeary

kastanis,

Welcome to the boards, and to what may (or may not) be a long and frustrating wait for the system to catch up to you.

If you meet the requirements for pilot training your selection for that MOC is a possibility, but how great a chance is hard to judge. Pilot training is a very slow process with current through-put and some officers wait years in that training system before they get their flight qualifications. Any existing backlog in the system may work against your chances of selection for pilot any time soon.

I'd say your chances of selection for AERE or CELE are better than for pilot. Whether or not you may be picked up from this fall's boards depends on a number of factors that cannot be readily estimated. As a DEO candidate, the system will be looking to enrol you in order to fill a gap in a training system which is currently based in large part on RMC. Initial forecasts look 4-5 years out and identify the minimum numbers that must start RMC each fall to fill future projected vacancies in each classification. But if attrition within training (academic or military) and greater than predicted losses of more senior personnel create unforecasted shortfalls, then sources like DEO board selections will be used to fill the gaps. Chances at any such board selection will depend on the number and quality of applicants, the number of positions being filled, and the ability of the training system to absorb the numbers desired by the trade.

As for the frequency of basic officer training courses, they start every other month or so at St Jean. But keep in mind that summer courses are dedicated to training those officer candidate between university years, and other courses may have priority given to certain trades in order to feed later courses that start right after them. 

All that being said, you could be picked up this fall, or may have to wait until next spring. Don't start packing yet, use the time to continue working. I would also suggest you use it as an opportunity to start researching your new vocation as a military officer. And be patient.

Good luck.


----------



## koach

The next pilot board will be this fall but before your name is submitted, you must complete the Air Crew Selection course.  These courses run several times per month but you will only attend this course after all of your processing is completed and your medical file is back from Borden.  By what you have stated, you have time to complete the above actions prior to the board.  I do recommend that once you receive the call regarding your PT test results that you book your medical right away because the medical portion takes the longest.

Good luck with your application and I hope you get what you want.


----------



## Inch

kastanis,

I'm a pilot, got my wings on Apr 2nd and am currently waiting for the Sea King OTU.  The other guys have answered your questions so if you have any questions specifically about the pilot training, I'm very recent in that aspect.  I bypassed Aircrew selection and primary flying training (PFT) so I'm not much help there, but Moose Jaw and Helo school I know quite well.

The backlog in Plt training has worked it's way through so that shouldn't be a factor when it comes to your selection board.

Cheers


----------



## casing

Since the previous replies dealt mainly with your interest in pilot, I'll tell you my impressions for the other two occupations you applied for.   I have recent experience in the application process.   I applied under the DEO plan for AERE, CELE, and Sig O, in that order.   Last month I received offers for AERE and Sig O and accepted AERE.   I start IAP in mid-September.

Now, for AERE or CELE you can basically rule out getting in for this September's IAP/BOTP courses.   This is because the DEO application deadline was April 26th, of which you obviously missed.   They won't make any exceptions for you.   So it looks like your application (barring any surprises) will be submitted for the selection boards that will be held in October or November.   If you are offered a position you will likely start IAP/BOTP in mid to late January.   If you have additional questions on this aspect, feel free to post here or send me an IM.

As for your current situation of putting your life on hold while your CF application is processing.   I would recommend to you to seek a position suitable for your education and career aspirations.   Of course, to do this you should not mention to potential employers that you have a CF application in process and might leave.   This could be considered unethical, but I believe that in this day and age and lack of job security this practice is not unethical.   There is also the possibility that you might not be leaving for the CF (read on!).

You should seek a suitable position for a number of reasons.   First, and most unappealing, is that you need to realize there is a possibility that you will not be offered a position in the CF.   This does not mean the end of the road for you, however.   You can keep your file open and submit your application for the very next selection board.   By having a job in which you are gaining engineering experience you make yourself more appealing to the selection committee and therefore more competitive, not to mention getting your career started in the event that the CF doesn't work out. That is good for both a second reason and a third reason.   A fourth reason is money, plain and simple.   You would probably earn more working as an engineer than you do working in a warehouse.   I know, money isn't everything, but if you have student loans or other debts it'll certainly benefit you to have a higher income.

I hope the pilot selection works out for you and you do find yourself on IAP in a couple of months.   But if not, then follow the previous advice and learn all you can about AERE and CELE.   I believe that this aspect really helped me in my application.

Good luck!


----------



## RAM KRISHNA

I applied for AERE and CELE and SIGS around Feb 2004 and cfrc going to send the file to the board next month. ( whoohoo)

1) is there anyone out there who applied for these jobs and waiting for the Oct- Nov board meeting?
2) one of my senior at university applied last year but missed the may board   meeting and 
     does the board consider what date a person initiate the application for the job ? ( any board member here)
3) I read some of the postings and it looks CELE and AERE are the toughest one to get in why?
     competition? or not enough openings in the airforce?

thanks ppl


----------



## DrSize

Well I can somewhat answer your questions....I love DEO questions haha and there are plenty of them floating around because no one REALLY knows on here..........or if they do, they do not give direct answers to questions it is mostly speculation

1.  I am in the process of applying for Logisitics, Sigs, and Infantry in that order..I am optimistic my file will be complete and will make it in time for the fall board.....so not sure about AERE and CELE but the majority on the boards seem to be going for the 3 you are going for, so from that percentage it would be a good guess that a large percentage of the DEO applicants are going for those positions.

2.  The date the person initiates the application has absoutely no bearing whatsoever on the decision...it just comes down to whether or not the file is complete in time for that board to make the decision, they meet twice a year.

3.  I am not sure so this is strictly speculation but there is a very handesome signing bonus for those positions....around 40k tax free.  This definetly increases the number of applications, resulting in better applicants, that leads to intense competition for these positions....I think there are usually about 10-15 openings for each position....that is not many at all if you really think about it.  Considering there are 10 provinces in Canada and 3 territories that is not many at all...........and each province has at least 2 good univerisities and in some cases like Ontario over 10 good reputable universities........I would love to see the stats on how many DEO applicants apply to each officer position...it could be 10, 20, 50, 200...........


----------



## casing

Actually, the $40K recruitment allowance for the engineering occupations *is* taxable.

I applied for AERE, CELE, and Sigs O (in that order) and made the last selection board.   When I got offers for AERE and Sigs O I asked how many offers were made.   11 offers were given for AERE, and between 14 and 19 for Sigs O (I didn't get a real clear answer on that one).   I didn't hear about CELE and I didn't think to ask how many offers were made.

My speculation is that AERE and CELE are difficult to get into right now because there are many less positions available for those occupations than there is for Sigs O.  Probably with just as many people applying to them.


----------



## zapoko

From the inside...

Confirmed,

Infantry and Logistics do not have signing bonuses and their pay rates are totally different than the engineers.

Engineers get the bonus RIGHT AFTER completing BOTC in St Jean. It is taxed heavily. First installment 25000$  but only 15000 in bank account after deductions. (that Quebec tax).

Also monthly pay varies from person to person depending on experience, marks and level of education.


----------



## George Wallace

zapoko said:
			
		

> Also monthly pay varies from person to person depending on experience, marks and level of education.



This is a very vague statement and not at all clear in it's presentation.

A persons experience and education will have an effect on what pay level they will enter as.   If two people enter ROTP at the same time and get their degrees and Phase training completed at the same time, it is most likely that they will be paid the at the same pay level.   The difference will come when a person enters through a different program as DEO, or whatever, and then a decission is made in Ottawa as to what pay level that person will start in, after consideration is given to education, training, and professional development and experience.   In some cases you may find that such a person will start off at a pay scale or two higher than his peers who have entered under a different program and time.   Clear as mud?


----------



## I_am_John_Galt

George Wallace said:
			
		

> DEO, or whatever, and then a decission is made in Ottawa as to what pay level that person will start in, after consideration is given to education, training, and professional development and experience.  In some cases you may find that such a person will start off at a pay scale or two higher than his peers who have entered under a different program and time.



Are you saying that as a DEO, you could start in one of the "Incentive Pay" categories above "Basic" on the pay rate tables?  I've not heard that before ...


----------



## casing

Real-world experience having an impact on how much you get paid when you start out... I dunno about that.  I have 8 years engineering experience and an extremely high GPA and I am starting out at IPC2 for a 2LT.  The clerk at the CFRC told me that IPC2 for DEO people is standard.  Who to believe, who to believe.


----------



## DrSize

I read somewhere that one of the guys had a close to 3 hour DEO interview.....This leads to my question are DEO Interviews generic across all recruiting centres.  I would naturally say No because my interview has to fit in a 1 hour time slot(I am booked at 9am, and the next officer applicant is booked at 10am).  However on the otherhand a generic interview is the only thing that makes sense.  Also are these interviews taped or recorded to help in the selection of the officers??  If they are not taped or recorded how could the interview have a big impact on the selection.  In most jobs the interview is the deciding factor.  However if the selection board does not see the interview the only thing they have to go on is what the interviewing officer has to say (ie. strong applicant with strengths in..and weaknesses in, or weak applicant...should not be offered position)..

How much of a deciding factor does the interview have on the final decision??


----------



## casing

Generic to the point that the same sort of things are covered.  The interviewer has a form containing topics that they go over.  They will mark down a grade for that topic, plus perhaps some comments.  This part is fairly generic.  What isn't generic is dependent upon you as an individual.  Your history.  Your unique qualifications.  That sort of thing.  

No, it isn't recorded.  The interviewer will compile a report based upon their findings from the interview and this report will be forwarded to the selection boards for review.

I would say that the interview plays the largest factor in whether you get an offer or not.  The other requirements must be met/passed, but the interview is the prime number, so to speak.


----------



## DrSize

Hey man, thanks for clearing that up.  My interview is Monday morning so I am properly preparing myself.  I have about 40-50 pages of notes I have taken off the forums and various websites to help prepare for the interview.  I'll be going over this notes all weekend.  I just wasn't too sure how some interviews can go for less than an hour and another interview can go for almost 3 hours, that lead to my question.  

I am sure if I start expanding and really get into the interview I will be aloud extra time.  And yeah each individual is different and has very diverse backgrounds so it could not be purely generic.... just down to the areas to cover, that makes sense to me.


----------



## brneil

Interview definitely depends on your recruiting officer. Also for some trades there are additional interviews or panels that you must attend as well.


----------



## DrSize

Yeah I definetly can see how it depends on the recruiting officer....this would also lead me to believe that some candidates have a pretty big advantage over other candidates depending on their interviewing officer......this may not seem like a big deal but if DEO positions are as competitive as some people say then it can make all the difference in the world...



			
				brneil said:
			
		

> Interview definitely depends on your recruiting officer. Also for some trades there are additional interviews or panels that you must attend as well.


----------



## rormson

40 pages of notes? Wow - you will certainly have a lot of info. I had a DEO interview on 29 June of this year at CFRC Kitchener that was  conducted by an Airforce Captain. Lasted about 2 hours, lots of questions about high school and educational experience. Don't sweat it. My sense is that they want to guage your character and ability to learn about your trade as opposed to what you might know right now. Good luck.


----------



## spacedog

Casing said:
			
		

> Real-world experience having an impact on how much you get paid when you start out... I dunno about that.   I have 8 years engineering experience and an extremely high GPA and I am starting out at IPC2 for a 2LT.   The clerk at the CFRC told me that IPC2 for DEO people is standard.   Who to believe, who to believe.



I'm DEO as well.  I don't think experience or marks have that much to do with it.  I have an electrical engineering degree, but only a couple of years of work experience, and I got IPC2.  Most people in my trade (SIGS) are also IPC2, except for a few people with non-engineering degrees and no work experience.  However, I do know a few guys who managed to wiggle their way up to IPC2 (complete with back pay) after finding out that they were making less than their buddies 

Pay always seems to be an issue in the army   Never had any problems myself, but it seems like everyone else spends half their time at the pay office trying to rectify various pay issues.


----------



## casing

Well, after my swearing-in ceremony I have a little more insight into the initial IPC for DEOs.  Of 6 that swore in (including me), 4 were starting at IPC2, with the other two at IPC1.  The IPC2 lucksters are all engineers, with the other two being Infantry and MPO.  Also, I know that the Infantry guy had a Computer Science degree.  So!  What this tells me is that your initial IPC is essentially based upon your occupation and intake plan.

Conjecture, of course, but the evidence seems to back it up.


----------



## rdschultz

I'm going to head down to the CFRC today and ask for a copy of my COE.  I have no idea what IPC I'm starting at (the clerk "guessed" it was just basic, with no IPC), but if Infantry is getting IPC1, then I think I'd be no worse than that?  Unless it is just experience, and because I have none (other than my summer work experience), I get nuthin'. 

It doesn't matter much, but I'm going to get this settled.


----------



## spacedog

RGO said:
			
		

> 40 pages of notes? Wow - you will certainly have a lot of info. I had a DEO interview on 29 June of this year at CFRC Kitchener that was   conducted by an Airforce Captain. Lasted about 2 hours, lots of questions about high school and educational experience. Don't sweat it. My sense is that they want to guage your character and ability to learn about your trade as opposed to what you might know right now. Good luck.



I agree.  Key point being "don't sweat it".  The interview is fairly straightforward.  I don't remember mine lasting much longer than 45 min or so.  I was also under the impression that the main intent was to determine your character strengths and wweaknesses  Keep in mind that it is possible to be over-prepared for an interview.  The purpose of the interview is to find out about you, NOT about the people on these forums or other websites.  The last thing you want to do is to start bs'ing your way through the interview.  Just be honest.


----------



## rdschultz

Well, I guess I've got IPC2 as well, which is what I expected from all the points raised here.  When I first went in there I explained the situation, and that I wanted to determine my IPC level because I was told I'd be Basic but others were told different things.  The Naval Lt. there told me that others were likely receiving IPC2 because of prior reserves service.  She then went to double check and determined I was actually granted IPC2, and she had no idea why.  So she said she wanted to check into it further on Monday.  I think the engineering degree is the logical explanation (with Casing's information, especially), but I guess she hadn't encountered this situation before.


----------



## bgc_fan

A little late coming to the party, but I thought I'd add my 2 cents.

When I went to the CFRC for the paperwork and everything, i.e. posting messages. The one who was helping out with everything mentioned that those in the engineering trade would start at IPC 2. That seemed to be regardless of work experience because another OCdt (2LT now as well as myself) had quite a bit of work experience and had IPC 2. OTOH I had minimal work experience, but had a Master's and I got IPC 3.

Hopefully that helps shed a bit of light on it... as far as the engineering trade is concerned.


----------



## shootergurl

I was wondering if anybody knows how often the selection boards meet for DEO positions.  I am interested in 2 career paths - Logistics Officer or Health Care Administration Officer.  If anybody can help me out I'd appreciate it.


----------



## Air Force Tech

I may be wrong but as I understand it from other posts I have read on Army.ca,  DEO boards meet once a year.  Every Oct/Nov.  A search of Army.ca using keywords like "DEO selection", or "selection boards" may result in the definite answer you are looking for.


----------



## kincanucks

shootergurl said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anybody knows how often the selection boards meet for DEO positions.   I am interested in 2 career paths - Logistics Officer or Health Care Administration Officer.   If anybody can help me out I'd appreciate it.



The DEO boards sit two times a year:

Oct/Nov
May.

More boards may be held on a as required basis.

See my posts in the Logistics Officer thread for more on LOG O.  HCA has very few positions available for the next board so of course the most competitive will get them.


----------



## Joe Blow

Well all the files are off and away as of a couple of weeks ago.  I am hoping for a spot in the September intake for DEO applicants and was wondering when I should have the word.

I have done a search and found that Pieman was good enough to post this:



> My file manager says he has to send out my application to the board by May 12th, and then they start to review it. He said that offers should start to trickle in starting in June.



http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/30276.0.html

Great, so if I am getting an offer for Sept. I should be part of that trickle beginning in June ...so when does the trickle stop?  Can anyone tell me when should I stop hoping for an offer for September ...and start hoping for one for January?  When will I know that I am definitely not being offered a spot in September?

Any insight is appreciated.

Thanks! - Joe


----------



## Uberman

I would think your recruiting center would be kind enough to let you know if you are not being given an offer. Give them a call once a week; they are likely quite busy this time of year. They should know if the position you are applying for is filled for September after a reasonable amount of time; I would think 2-4 weeks. I'm sure Kincanucks would be privy to that information if you told him the position you are applying for.


----------



## kincanucks

Depending on the occupation the board dates are anywhere from end May to mid Jun.  Results are usually, hopefully, out a couple of weeks after the last board and will detail who was selected, who was waitlisted and who was not selected.  THe CFRC/Ds will contact everyone in due time.


----------



## Joe Blow

Thank-you for the feedback guys.



> Results are usually, hopefully, out a couple of weeks after the last board and will detail who was selected, who was waitlisted and who was not selected.  THe CFRC/Ds will contact everyone in due time.



kincanucks - My hat is off to you sir.

Uberman -  My file handleer seems like a nice fellow.  If he is able to I'm sure he will tell me if i have not been selected as soon as he knows.  I will definitely stay in touch.


----------



## denisottawa

Hey there all. I am doing my third year in college in Electrical Engineering. I will do a 1 year stunt in univeristy to gain my degree so I can apply as an Officer. 

I want to know of others who have applied for DEO, or those who are finaly in the forces doing this? Just want to know about the bonus you receive, time you must serve, do you like it or regret it? Just overal experience you have encountered. I am seriously considering this as a career, so just want to know if anyone can tell me more about it.  I have read alot on the website and just want to know from a point of view inside this whole process.


Thanks


----------



## Pieman

If you are certain that this is a career path for you, start the application process as soon as you can. It can take a very long time and the sooner you get the application process moving, the better.

From what I understand, you can start the process before you get your degree, and CFRC should process your application up till a point pending you complete it. (Not sure how far they will process your application durring that time, but it is better to start sooner than later)

Really, stop by the recruiting center and talk to them. Get the ball rolling if you can.


----------



## hoote

Hi, this is for anyone who knows but especially for Kincanucks if he is around.

Is the process for selecting a DEO the same as for NCM's?  In one of Kincanucks previous posts, he explained that all applicants for a specific trade are graded according to how well they scored on the PT test, interview, CFAT, etc. and then a computer ranks their overall score from highest to lowest.  The list is given to the board and then offers are made to fill the quota (need 100, take the top 100).  Is that how DEO's are selected?  

In my case would all the infantry officer candidates get ranked according to how they scored on the various application processes (PT, CFAT, interview, etc.) and then offers made based on that ranked list alone?


----------



## Caesar416

Entering as an officier means you had to get a degree. Your grades probably count as an important part in the process, or does it not?


----------



## Pieman

Can't give an answer as detalied as kincanucks can, but this is my understanding of it:



> In my case would all the infantry officer candidates get ranked according to how they scored on the various application processes (PT, CFAT, interview, etc.) and then offers made based on that ranked list alone?


My understanding is that the difference between NCM and Officer candidates is that your file will go to a selection board. So you will have a group of people taking a nice hard look at your file, and trying to decide if you would be good or not. I think Officers are still given a rank based upon the interview and test, but other aspects will come into play. Your University education (grades?), your physical condition (how active of a lifestyle do you have, sports?), Work experience, life experience, etc. etc. 

I was told that on average there are 3 applicants for 1 Officer position. It can be a much more competitive position to obtain and in your application, you should do everything you can to make yourself as competitive as possible.    For example, during my follow up interview I brought in receipts for physical training classes I had been taking. They increased my score as a result. Why? Because instead of just saying, "Oh yea, I'm working out" I was able to show I really was working at it and taking it seriously. 

If I am off about this, I am sure kincanucks will set it straight for us.


----------



## hoote

Hmm.... just what I needed.  I Assumed that since I have been following this forum since august last year that I would have seen a posting like that but that one was from Dec 2004 so I didn't look back far enough.  

Totally answered my question.  Thanks!


----------



## ReadyAyeReady

While not discounting the importance of being as physically fit as possible, from what I understand the PT test is done on a pass/fail basis.  So as long as you pass then that's all that matters as far as how it affects your overall DEO application.  Although, I would assume that the more sports and physical activities you do in your free time would affect the application.  That doesn't mean to just do the bare minimum though as far as PT goes.  Someone correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## Pieman

I have not done my PT test at all, and have already gone through the selection boards. So you are correct in that it does not come into play, it seems to be just a requirement that you must meet at some point.


----------



## casing

Pieman said:
			
		

> I have not done my PT test at all, and have already gone through the selection boards. So you are correct in that it does not come into play, it seems to be just a requirement that you must meet at some point.



Correct.  When I was going through the application process I was told *not* to take the PT test until I received an offer.  Once an offer came in, I booked the PT test within a couple of days.  In the event that I had failed the PT test, my recruiting officer told me I would have been able re-try the test and pass it within a few weeks (3 or 4).  I imagine that having DEO candidates not take the test until receiving an offer is an effort to cut down on costs.  Good idea, far as I'm concerned.


----------



## kincanucks

All processing including the physical is to be complete in order to go to the selection board.  That is the standard now but it has been broken sometimes.


----------



## kincanucks

It has been decided by CFRG HQ that the requirement to hold DEO selection boards on fixed dates for "non-specialist occupations" those occupations that do not require specialist boards (NOAB, MPAC, etc) are no longer necessary.  Therefore starting 15 Apr 06 will be the date that CFRG will do its first round of selection for "non-specialist occupations" (everything but MARS, MPO and Legal) and approximately every six weeks after that there will another selection cycle until the IAP/BOTPs in Sep/Jan are filled.  The way it will work is that when the file is ready (everything is completed: CFAT, Interview, ERC, PT, Med, etc) for a non-specialist officer occupation it will be merit listed and it will be immediately sent to CFRG HQ for consdieration.  As always I am available for questions.


----------



## scoutfinch

Kindly advise as to how the DEO Boards are now going to apply to DEO candidates to INT.

Thanks in advance.

SF


----------



## Guy. E

I have two questions.

1) What is "DEO"?

2) What you posted is regarding non specialist occupations. What happens in the example of a specialist trade?


----------



## George Wallace

Guy. E said:
			
		

> I have two questions.
> 
> 1) What is "DEO"?


Direct Entry Officer.


			
				Guy. E said:
			
		

> 2) What you posted is regarding non specialist occupations. What happens in the example of a specialist trade?


 Officers don't have Specialist Trades like NCMs.  There are basically three Pay Scales for Officers, which also breakdown into different categories.  One for the majority of Officers, one for Pilot Officers and the third for Medical and Dental Officers.  If you search the DND site for Pay you will find them all broken down for you.  You will also find a lot more on DEO by using the SEARCH FUNCTION.


----------



## kincanucks

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> Kindly advise as to how the DEO Boards are now going to apply to DEO candidates to INT.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> SF



Well being a non-specialist occupation the same procedures would apply.


----------



## scoutfinch

My understanding was that until recently there was no opportunity to go INTO via direct entry. 

I stand to be corrected but I believe it changed within the past month or so.   I believe the minimum educational qualification is a graduate degree in a specified field.  

I was wondering how the DEO process would mesh with the INT screening.  Sorry if my question wasn't clear.

Thanks again.


----------



## kincanucks

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> My understanding was that until recently there was no opportunity to go INTO via direct entry.
> 
> I stand to be corrected but I believe it changed within the past month or so.   I believe the minimum educational qualification is a graduate degree in a specified field.
> 
> I was wondering how the DEO process would mesh with the INT screening.  Sorry if my question wasn't clear.
> 
> Thanks again.



To be eligible for DEO INT O an applicants needs to have a Masters in a specified field.  However, if the occupation was considered to be experiencing urgent personnel requirements, which it is not, there may be exceptions.

There is no additional screening required for INT Os and they are processed the same way as a Cbt Arms applicant for example.


----------



## scoutfinch

Thanks very much for clearing that up for me as I had become somewhat muddled by the process.

So, if someone were to apply DEO INT with the proper academic qualifications, they could be accepted as an INT O but obtaining a top secret security clearance would be another stage in the process, distinct from the application and training process?  I just want to make sure I have it clear in my head.  

I appreciate your time and assistance with what must appear as rudimentary questions!


----------



## kincanucks

scoutfinch said:
			
		

> Thanks very much for clearing that up for me as I had become somewhat muddled by the process.
> 
> So, if someone were to apply DEO INT with the proper academic qualifications, they could be accepted as an INT O but obtaining a top secret security clearance would be another stage in the process, distinct from the application and training process?  I just want to make sure I have it clear in my head.
> 
> I appreciate your time and assistance with what must appear as rudimentary questions!



Obtaining a Level III clearance has nothing to do with the selection and application process (unless there were security concerns from residency and foreign travel and which case that would involve a pre-assessment) that process will be carried out after an applicant is enrolled.  However, if an applicant was not granted a Level III after being enrolled I guess they wouldn't be an INT O anymore.


----------



## dardt

If selections will be held every 6 weeks for DEO's starting in April how quickly does CFRG anticipate filling the slots for Sept. 06 and Jan 07 IAP's. Is it then possible that within a few months all the DEO positions will be filled until Sept. 07 ? At first glance it just looks like they'll be limiting the # of files they can consider, the initial training schedule will not change right ?


----------



## kincanucks

dardt said:
			
		

> If selections will be held every 6 weeks for DEO's starting in April how quickly does CFRG anticipate filling the slots for Sept. 06 and Jan 07 IAP's. Is it then possible that within a few months all the DEO positions will be filled until Sept. 07 ? At first glance it just looks like they'll be limiting the # of files they can consider, the initial training schedule will not change right ?



Yes it is possible but highly unlikely that all the IAP/BOTP slots will be filled in a few months.  The problem with doing it this way is that we may not get the best possible applicant for the job but I guess that is a risk they have considered and are willing to take.  My advice to anybody thinking about DEO to apply as soon as possible.


----------



## xmarcx

kincanucks said:
			
		

> My advice to anybody thinking about DEO to apply as soon as possible.



I'm incredibly anxious to apply for DEO Infantry, and I could walk away from school with a BA General in Political Science at the end of April, but if I stay I can complete a BA Combined Honours in Human Rights & International Relations by the end of December 06.  I'd like to enter the Army as soon as possible frankly, but I figured it'd be worthwhile to put it off until I could earn the more advanced degree. That said, if selection boards are no longer in place, could I actually be putting myself at a disadvantage by waiting? I couldn't imagine either missing out on the January or September 07 courses and being stuck with my degree and nothing to do but sit and wait for my dream job!


----------



## kincanucks

The longer you wait the more chances you take about not making it in on time or there not being any positions.  Your choice and good luck.


----------



## Quyen

So if they decide your going to IAP/BOTC in May for the sept 06 iap/botc, will they tell you as soon as they choose you? Eg. May


----------



## kincanucks

As soon as you are selected and an offer of employment has been sent to your CFRC/D you will be contacted.


----------



## xmarcx

kincanucks said:
			
		

> The longer you wait the more chances you take about not making it in on time or there not being any positions.  Your choice and good luck.



Thank you for the tip.

I walked into CFRC Ottawa this morning and got all the paperwork to apply. They said it'd be no problem if merit listed and selected for the January 07 course to go on condition that by then I had finished all my course work and my official graduation was just a few months away.

I will try to schedule my interview, fitness, and medical for as soon as I'm within the 6 month window and start crossing my fingers!


----------



## Pirate

Thanks for posting this announcement, kincanucks.

I have a quick question about the NOAB for anyone here.  (I hope that this stays on the topic on this thread about DEO boards.  I just didn't want to spam the board with a new thread).

I have a general idea of when the NOAB happens.  (I assume there is one NOAB during spring and one NOAB during autumn).  However, can anyone tell me where can I find out about the exact dates of the NOABs for 2006? I'd prefer an internet source; otherwise, I would have bothered the recruiting officer already.  

Thank you to anyone who answers!


----------



## Not the mama

I am wondering what my chances are of entering via DEO into either Logistics or one of the cbt arms. 

I am in my mid to late 30's and have made more then a few mistakes in my life.
I have an MBA in Finance, but have managed to muck up my life enough to never actually use the degree. 
I would have thought that if I got my life on track, getting some sort of job for a few years, lost the excess weight, got into great shape, learned a bit of French, that I would have some sort of chance. I have no criminal background. Don't do the drugs, booze or even cigs.  I got a 95 percentile on the GMAT, and do extremely well with the various intelligence tests, including the one on mensa.org. So any standard tests I should blow away.

Basically, the idea I had that getting out of a hole takes some ability. After all only about 5% or so manage for example to lose 40 or so pounds and keep it off for more then a year. I've managed to do that. 

Then in the "DEO Logistics Officer Questions" kincanucks writes,  "For the last Log O board there was 105 files for two positions.  The files that were selected had MBAs and one or both were in charge of million dollar budgets in their current civilian occupations.  Why they want to join the CF who knows maybe they are looking for adventure."

Which leads me to believe that unless one is utterly perfect and stellar, that I might as well forget about DEO.

Question 1: Am I correct in this assumption.
Question 2: Would the odds change with a reserve vs reg force position
Question 3: How hard would it be to enter as a NCM with said background should the DEO be out of the question.

It seems on this board that the attitude seems to be don't worry, just try. However I would like to know if it is a Forlorn hope or not. If it is,  I will still continue with trying to get my ducks in a row... except maybe for the French. That is a sacrifice I would only do for the Forces.


----------



## CdnArtyWife

I don't present myself to be the SME in this area. IMO that is definitely kincanucks. I will offer you this though; The word on the street is that Logistics is a difficult trade to get into from the civie side. But don't let this stop your application process. You also mentioned cbt arms as a possibility, you would most certainly have more luck with cbt arms trades.

That said, you also mentioned being in a hole. Well, I have personally known several people (a few of which were DEO) that had been through bankruptsy and lost their house and car previous to joining the CF. 

WRT french, if you do join and get through IAP/BOTP you would move on to Second Language Training for 8 months. Don't worry about being bilingual before you join, the CF will train you. However, if you were to take the initiative to learn the language on your own time before joining it certainly would not hinder your application.

I have a philosophy in life: It never hurts to ask/try. This philosophy has gotten me places I didn't think I would have gone had I not asked/tried. So firstly I will say, good on you for trying to get your life out of a hole. Keep working on it and you will do fine. If you really want the CF as a career, put in your application and keep your fingers crossed. Keep a positive attitude rather than a defeatest one, and you never know, you just may get what you asked/tried for.


----------



## Not the mama

CdnArtyWife said:
			
		

> ....
> 
> WRT french, if you do join and get through IAP/BOTP you would move on to Second Language Training for 8 months. Don't worry about being bilingual before you join, the CF will train you. However, if you were to take the initiative to learn the language on your own time before joining it certainly would not hinder your application.
> 
> I have a philosophy in life: It never hurts to ask/try. This philosophy has gotten me places I didn't think I would have gone had I not asked/tried. So firstly I will say, good on you for trying to get your life out of a hole. Keep working on it and you will do fine. If you really want the CF as a career, put in your application and keep your fingers crossed. Keep a positive attitude rather than a defeatest one, and you never know, you just may get what you asked/tried for.



French, and second languages is the one area I've always had trouble with in school. Well that at pure math, but there are few who can do well with such things . I managed to spend my first 13 years of life in Quebec without learning it, failing it every second year. Haven't done any for over 20 years.
On a more important note, as you say in your last line of the first quoted paragraph. If I can take a subject which is brutal hard for me, and if not master it, then at least work on it and show progress, it would no doubt show in part that I am worthy of consideration, it would be a way of at least partly showing that I am not a frig up that I have been. Likewise, should I go from being the 325 pound, can't outwalk my 70 year old heart patient father, to the 280 pound 3.5 mph walker [with the ruck sack sized gut] I am now, and to the under 200 pound [6'2] Superior or near superior scoreing on the fitness test guy. That would also be a good thing. These are the sort of things I figure, rightly or wrongly, I would need to prove to myself and a recruiter that I have turned a new leaf.

Of course in the case of the latter, it is something I really must do anyways, even if I've been banned from military service for life.


As for the attitude, I agree, but there is a point where I would like to know about how realistic it is. I don't want to be like those fellows who join a reserve unit with the goal of sniper training in their glittering eyes. Goals which as other threads go are pretty much impossible.

Fortunatly, aside from the French, everything else I plan on doing is worth doing even if there were no military.


----------



## CdnArtyWife

Well then, I guess it really depends on how big of a frig up you've been.

You said you have not done drugs, don't drink, don't smoke. +1 for you
You said you have no criminal back ground. Another +1 for you

If you have been a "frig up" financially in the past, ok, you are human. Like I said before, there have been people accepted (and still in) the CF with financial issues. The key is to be honest about everything on your application and at the interviews. HONESTY is key. And if you are making obvious steps to better yourself that is another +1 for you.

For some people who get bogged down financially (whether they were never taught good fiscal responsibility practices or just had a slew of bad luck) the CF is a hope, a light at the end of the tunnel for an opportunity for change for the better and job security.

Right now, by the sounds of it, your physical fitness may be your biggest obstacle in your application to the CF. Keep working on it, and stay honest.

It is my opinion (but again kincanucks is more expert, by far, than I) that with hard work and determination, the CF is not a pipe dream in your case. Your first choice for trades (LOG) may be hard to get, but you haven't ruled out cbt arms...and well, I may be biased, but Arty isn't that bad from what I've seen.


----------



## kincanucks

_"For the last Log O board there was 105 files for two positions.  The files that were selected had MBAs and one or both were in charge of million dollar budgets in their current civilian occupations.  Why they want to join the CF who knows maybe they are looking for adventure."_

JHFC didn't I write that three years ago?  There are more positions but the competition still remains high.  Apply and find out but have alternatives and stop asking someone to look in a crystal ball to see if you are going to make it or not.  Present the best possible application and do the very best in all aspects of the processing.  Good Luck.


----------



## Zarathustra

Not the mama said:
			
		

> I got a 95 percentile on the GMAT



Not bad. That's 2 percentile above me. But English is not my native language. And I had a little cold that day. I'm not impressed... *lol*


----------



## kincanucks

I was recently informed that there were no DEO selection boards in April and they are now scheduled for next week, maybe.


----------



## John Galt

kincanucks, is it expected for a CEOTP board to sit at this same time?  If not, do you know when the next CEOTP board will be held.

JG


----------



## kincanucks

johngalt said:
			
		

> kincanucks, is it expected for a CEOTP board to sit at this same time?  If not, do you know when the next CEOTP board will be held.
> 
> JG



DEO and CEOTP at the same time.


----------



## mare2mare71

Kinkanucks:

This is a very interesting development in  the recruiting process.  The questions I have concerning this is given the new six week cycle, will this cause a huge administrative burden on the recruiting centres? I find it incredible that if a candidate hands in their completed application with all the necessary supporting documentation, that their file would be ready to be forwarded to the CRFG in Borden to coincide with this short and very fast selection board cycle.

Can a recruiting centre realistically process an applicant in that short of a timeframe, or are we going to be confronted with a situation that the only people who have a realistic chance of making the first few "boards" are only those that have submitted their applications several months in advance of the first boards?

My case as an example, is that I have just submitted my application to the recruiting centre on the 23rd of May for DEO Logistics (AIR), HCA and PAFFO.  My concern is that there will have passed several boards before I have had the chance to do the required medical, physical and interview etc. 

Therefore, I am just curious for applicants in the same "boat" as myself, who have just applied slightly before the newly first six week selection boards, that are we looking at completely missing most of the selection boards for the 2006 Fiscal Period?

It would be great if my file is ready in six weeks to be sent off to CFRG Borden, although I fear that given that it had previously taken several months to process applicants, that this may still be what we should expect.

Thanks so much Kincanucks for your kind attention to my post. You are a wealth of information and I always enjoy your post!!!!

Cheers!!!

mare2mare


----------



## kincanucks

mare2mare71 said:
			
		

> Kinkanucks:
> 
> This is a very interesting development in  the recruiting process.  The questions I have concerning this is given the new six week cycle, will this cause a huge administrative burden on the recruiting centres? I find it incredible that if a candidate hands in their completed application with all the necessary supporting documentation, that their file would be ready to be forwarded to the CRFG in Borden to coincide with this short and very fast selection board cycle.
> 
> Can a recruiting centre realistically process an applicant in that short of a timeframe, or are we going to be confronted with a situation that the only people who have a realistic chance of making the first few "boards" are only those that have submitted their applications several months in advance of the first boards?
> 
> My case as an example, is that I have just submitted my application to the recruiting centre on the 23rd of May for DEO Logistics (AIR), HCA and PAFFO.  My concern is that there will have passed several boards before I have had the chance to do the required medical, physical and interview etc.
> 
> Therefore, I am just curious for applicants in the same "boat" as myself, who have just applied slightly before the newly first six week selection boards, that are we looking at completely missing most of the selection boards for the 2006 Fiscal Period?
> 
> It would be great if my file is ready in six weeks to be sent off to CFRG Borden, although I fear that given that it had previously taken several months to process applicants, that this may still be what we should expect.
> 
> Thanks so much Kincanucks for your kind attention to my post. You are a wealth of information and I always enjoy your post!!!!
> 
> Cheers!!!
> 
> mare2mare



So you would rather have only two boards a year and have your file sit around waiting for one of them?  This way when a file is ready it gets sent up right away instead of waiting for the next file due date.  Your post comes off as a bit premature and self-serving since you have not even been processed yet.  Why don't you give the system a chance before you complain about whether or not your file will make it to the next board in time or if there will be any spots left for you.  Every applicant is different and the time it will take for each applicant to be ready to be sent to CFRG will be different.

_Can a recruiting centre realistically process an applicant in that short of a timeframe_

_It would be great if my file is ready in six weeks to be sent off to CFRG Borden, although I fear that given that it had previously taken several months to process applicants, that this may still be what we should expect._

Why do people insist on the "oh it happened to them so it should happen to me" attitude?  Every applicant is different.  Worry about passing the CFAT, the interview, the medical and the physical.


----------



## exsemjingo

Thanks for the info.

I suppose I could contribute a word about patience.  I myself find the waiting to be maddening, but have gotten used to it.  Once recruits become Soldiers, the waiting does not just disappear; it gets longer.  
So hang in there.  Plant a tree or something and wait for it to grow in the meantime.


----------



## boots

kincanucks said:
			
		

> for "non-specialist occupations" (everything but MARS, MPO and Legal)



The new process sounds like a good idea... probably a lot less waiting 

MARS, MPO, and Legal are the only "specialist" occupations? Why is that? And what does that mean exactly, besides what you've said in your original post?


----------



## kincanucks

cuteboots said:
			
		

> The new process sounds like a good idea... probably a lot less waiting
> 
> MARS, MPO, and Legal are the only "specialist" occupations? Why is that? And what does that mean exactly, besides what you've said in your original post?



_those occupations that do not require specialist boards (NOAB, MPAC, etc) _ 

Specialist in that they each require supplemental selection procedures: MARS requires a Naval Officer Assessment Board.  MPO requires a Military Police Assessment Committee.  Legal requires interviews by the JAG branch.


----------



## TCBF

In a perfect world: each Regiment would vett and accept or deny their applicants BEFORE they got in and got a degree and passed Ph IV.


----------



## Hot Lips

TCBF said:
			
		

> In a perfect world: each Regiment would vett and accept or deny their applicants BEFORE they got in and got a degree and passed Ph IV.


Makes perfect sense...

HL


----------



## cdnEng

I got an offer as DEO in signals. I have passed all the tests except the PT. My PT would be in one month. My question is that if I fail the PT in first attempt, can I do it again? I mean that can I still do it after my offer date... I really want to the join the Canadian Forces. I can run 5 KM and can do sit ups, but push ups are little hard on me. However, I am improving on them. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Grilla

you have a whole month, you've got nothing to worry about, just do 20 pushups 3 times a day and it will be fine.


----------



## kincanucks

cdnEng said:
			
		

> I got an offer as DEO in signals. I have passed all the tests except the PT. My PT would be in one month. My question is that if I fail the PT in first attempt, can I do it again? I mean that can I still do it after my offer date... I really want to the join the Canadian Forces. I can run 5 KM and can do sit ups, but push ups are little hard on me. However, I am improving on them. Thanks in advance.



Any offer is conditional on that you meet and continue to meet the eligibility requirements (PT, ERC, Med, etc.)to enrol in the CF.  If you fail the PT and don't pass it in time for the assigned enrolment date then you will not be enrolled and your offer will be given to someone else.  Your physical fitness is something you should have been addressing prior to your application not after getting an offer.


----------



## cdnEng

Today, I got acceptance letter as Signals Officer in mail. But I had no idea about length of my contract. I phoned the recruiting center and they said it would be 9 years. I read in the Signals Officer's information sheet that if you are in ROTP, then you will complete 4 years of obligatory service after graduation from university. I have already finished my university education and applied as D.E.O. In that case, what will be the length of my Contrace? Also, my salary has been highlighted equivalent to officer cadet not D.E.O. in my package. Kindly help me to expain this. Thanks.


----------



## dardt

Contract and restricted release are two different things. You're not obligated to stay in the CF unless you owe obligatory service, received subsidization or signing bonus for your trade. If you went DEO you'll get DEO Salary although it may be part way through basic before it shows on your pay stub. Regardless call you're CFRC and make sure all the paperwork is clear before you sign.


----------



## militarygirl

The best place to get the answers on your contract length, would be your recruiting centre, though I did look it up and it is nine (9) years for DEO Sigs.  As for your salary, contact the file manager at the recruiting centre who is working on your file and ask them for the details on your rank and salary.  All of this should have been on the conditional offer that the recruiting centre received prior to contacting you ref your enrolment.


----------



## George Wallace

1.  If they told you your contract is for 9 years, that is what it is for.  That was easy.

2.  So, the package said ROTP much complete 4 years obligatory service after graduation from university.  You aren't ROTP, so it does not apply to you.  That again was easy.

3.  You have finished university and applied as D.E.O.  You want to know what the length of your contract is?  See No. 1 above.  That, too, was easy.

4.  Your salary has been highlighted as equivalent to officer cadet, not D.E.O., in your package.  You want an explanation.  OK.  There is no such rank as D.E.O.  You will not start off as the CDS, who is a General, but you will start at the bottom, which is Officer Cadet.  You will learn all these ranks as you go through your training.  You will have some very knowledgeable instructors, with much less education than you, to ensure that you learn all of this.  Wasn't that easy.

In the end, you will be given the rank and pay level on your message and if you accept that offer, that will be what you get.  Too easy.


----------



## techie

George Wallace said:
			
		

> 1.  If they told you your contract is for 9 years, that is what it is for.  That was easy.
> 
> 2.  So, the package said ROTP much complete 4 years obligatory service after graduation from university.  You aren't ROTP, so it does not apply to you.  That again was easy.
> 
> 3.  You have finished university and applied as D.E.O.  You want to know what the length of your contract is?  See No. 1 above.  That, too, was easy.
> 
> 4.  Your salary has been highlighted as equivalent to officer cadet, not D.E.O., in your package.  You want an explanation.  OK.  There is no such rank as D.E.O.  You will not start off as the CDS, who is a General, but you will start at the bottom, which is Officer Cadet.  You will learn all these ranks as you go through your training.  You will have some very knowledgeable instructors, with much less education than you, to ensure that you learn all of this.  Wasn't that easy.
> 
> In the end, you will be given the rank and pay level on your message and if you accept that offer, that will be what you get.  Too easy.



Ahh, i love these explanations. Reminds me of my stepfather.


----------



## kitrad1

Contract Length for  a DEO Sigs Officer is 9 (nine) years.

Your salary will be in accordance with CBI 204.11 (check your ETP (Enrolment Transfer Posting Message) when you get it. As well, the CFRC should brief you that prior to enrolment. You can also check it out at: http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/cbi/engraph/home_e.asp?sidesection=6&Section=204.211&sidecat=21&Chapter=204#204.211


----------



## exsemjingo

Huh?  What?  You got this far but still have these questions?
Read, research, decide, and only then sign on the dotted line.  
If you're sure after thinking hard, then good luck.


----------



## Michael OLeary

*New Terms of Service now in effect*
Issue 5/05 – 18 May 2005

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/cfpn/engraph/5_05/5_05_tos_e.asp



> What has changed?
> 
> • Variable Initial Engagement
> 
> *The VIE replaces the Basic Engagement (BE) for NCMs and the Short Service Engagement (SSE) and Short Engagement (SE) for officers.* The length of the VIE varies from military occupation to occupation depending upon the needs of each occupation and the training time required for that occupation.
> 
> *The VIE ranges in length from three to nine years*, not including subsidized training or education. For example, if you are enrolled as an armoured officer and attend Royal Military College, your officer VIE of nine years plus the Regular Officer Training Program (ROTP) period of four years equals a total VIE of 13 years. *If you enrolled as a Direct Entry Officer (DEO), the VIE would total nine years.* Details of the length of engagement for each occupation may be found in the relevant instructions issued by the Assistant Deputy Minister (Human Resources – Military).



Regarding you pay on entry, I believe all officer files start there.  Once the documentation is complete to ascertain other entitlements, such as for DEO, you will be moved to the correct bracket.


----------



## windsorftw

For D.E.O. you start out as an Officer Cadet.  After basic training you get promoted to 2nd Lieut and your wages will increase.  That should have been explained to you by CFRC, I know they explained it to me when I picked up an info package.


----------



## xmarcx

I'm throwing this out there in hopes that someone went through the same problem, or maybe someone in the system has some advice.

I originally looked into applying for the CF when I had finished the requirements for my Bachelors degree. I ended up with a few extra credits at school however, so I decided to take the summer and spring to upgrade to Honours rather than applying to graduate. I was worried however that if I finished my degree in December that I'd be stuck sitting around until April or worse for IAP. I applied in June and a Sgt at my CFRC told me not to worry, that I'd be able to get a conditional acceptance so I could leave for training before I had my degree in hand, as long as a friend or family member could send my degree in once it was ready while I was gone.

So, now, I've been selected for DEO Inf, which I thought would be great news. 6 weeks later, I still don't have an offer. First my file manager called requesting proof that I had qualified for at least a bachelors already. I got a letter from my school to the office in 5 hours that said I'd be done my honours in December, but if I wanted it, I just had to apply to change programs for my Bachelors.

Today I got another call and I was told that in order to get an offer recruiting HQ said that I had to apply for a change of program back down to Bachelors. The paperwork for that would take 6 weeks, and in 6 weeks I'll be done my last classes for my Honours degree. 

I'm not about to downgrade my degree, especially when I'm weeks away from finishing it. The CF has all the proof short of the lambskin that I've qualified for at least a bachelors degree already, but neither my word, my transcripts, the University course calender, or the associate chair of my department's word seems to be good enough. 

I realize that I'm the one making things difficult here, but I know the CF needs people, especially in combat arms, and I want in ASAP to do my part. Is there any chance of me getting an offer for January or am I going to have to wait till April once I've 'officially' graduated?


----------



## ThatsLife

Don't make the same mistake as me...I quit highschool a month away from graduation to join the military..then I realized it was a stupid move and VR'd..now I'm graduated and am going to be rejoining right after Christmas. Finish school..the CF will always be here.


----------



## Elwood

I think I'm in the same boat as you, so I might be able to help you if you can answer me one question:

Did you officially graduate with a 3-year Bachelor's degree, or did you upgrade your studies to Hons. Bachelor's to wait to graduate with a 4-year degree?


----------



## xmarcx

I decided to upgrade to Hons. add a second major and wait.

I supplied the recruiting centre with a letter from my school explaining that I had earned a Bachelors degree and would only have to request it to recieve it.


----------



## exsemjingo

6 weeks does not sound like too long a time to wait.  I sat on the merit list for two months and was selected b the second merit board that looked at my file.  (August).  But by that time, I had to pass September IAP/BOTP by, and wait for January.
Sounds like only a matter of time for you, but only the recruiting centre can tell you for sure.


----------



## xmarcx

exsemjingo said:
			
		

> 6 weeks does not sound like too long a time to wait.



True ex, I should have been more clear. I was called and told I wasn't going to get an offer as it stood.


----------



## exsemjingo

I just wanted to give you something to compare your wait to.  The rest is a mystery since I'm not in the know.


----------



## DanDaMan

Hello, I will be graduating with an engineering degree in May of 2008.  I am seriously considering going into the DEO program after I finish school.  I would like to know the deadline to make that decision so that I can begin training as soon as possible after I graduate.  When do I need to submit my application, and if I submit it early and get accepted, can I defer until after graduation?


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

wow, the best answer I can give on that one is get in touch with a recruiter. They know most of the in's and outs, I'm not sure there may be one on the boards here somewhere


----------



## kincanucks

You should apply two to three months before you graduate and you will have to provide proof of your degree before you can be enrolled.  Of course that is if you are successful in the application process.


----------



## DanDaMan

Hmmm... that late might make it tough to start looking for a job if I don't get accepted.  I also wasn't planning on mentioning it to family until I was definitely in.  But come Christmas time I can't just say, "uhh yeah I'm kinda waiting on this thing that might pan out for after I graduate".  Also, I don't have a lot of funds to just hang around if I finish school in May but couldn't start until August.  Maybe I should put the whole thing off for a while and get a civilian engineering job and a bit of money.  More than a year or two of working at a desk infront of a computer would drive me nuts though.


----------



## George Wallace

You give up too easily.  If you have good marks, are in good shape, healthy and confident, you should have no problems getting in.  You just gave up, and you haven't even started yet.


----------



## DanDaMan

Discussing options is giving up?  My future is all up in the air right now.  Sorry if I am using the forums to think out loud for myself.


----------



## AverageJoe

DanDaMan said:
			
		

> Hmmm... that late might make it tough to start looking for a job if I don't get accepted.  I also wasn't planning on mentioning it to family until I was definitely in.  But come Christmas time I can't just say, "uhh yeah I'm kinda waiting on this thing that might pan out for after I graduate".  Also, I don't have a lot of funds to just hang around if I finish school in May but couldn't start until August.  Maybe I should put the whole thing off for a while and get a civilian engineering job and a bit of money.  More than a year or two of working at a desk infront of a computer would drive me nuts though.



My interviewer told me "Live your life, We'll surprise you one of these days with a call."

I suggest if you are serious about joining the CF that you head down to your local CFRC and speak with the people there. Apply when you can and live your life as if you hadn't, except for the occasional update calls to the CFRC. When you finish school go get a job and if you are selected for a job in the CF they will give you plenty of notice to make up your mind and to give your current employers their 2 weeks notice before they ship you off to basic. I mean its not a big deal for you to find a job/career while you are in the CF selection process.


----------



## Flouf

Hey Dan,

I just went through the same process, I applied at the end of September 2006 as a DEO EME. I did my interview at the end of October and got a job offer in early May, now I am going on BOTC on Aug 27. It is difficult to make it for the end of June basic because it almost requires that you submit your marks by mid April... and depending on your exam schedule, they may not be available yet.

You will have a feel of how competitive your application is when the process is done --the recruiter will tell you if your application is "highly competitive" or not. The annual intake of your desired MOC is also a good indication.... no spots means you will not have a job.

I would recommend getting everything done as soon as possible, if there are problems with your medical (for example) your application could get held up.

Apply for other jobs in the meantime, quit them or turn them down if you are set on being in the forces.


----------



## tannerthehammer

kincanucks said:
			
		

> You should apply two to three months before you graduate and you will have to provide proof of your degree before you can be enrolled.  Of course that is if you are successful in the application process.



Is this also true if you are doing a CT from Pres to Reg for a different trade?


----------



## George Wallace

tannerthehammer said:
			
		

> Is this also true if you are doing a CT from Pres to Reg for a different trade?



CT means that you are going from the Reserves into the Regular Force, or vice versa, and remaining in the same Trade.  If you are changing Trades, you are doing an Occupational Transfer.  Two entirely different things.


----------



## BC Old Guy

The CT from Res to Reg can by either in the same trade, with only a target interview, or for a different trade, with a more complete interview.  When doing a CT to a different trade, it will depend on what the different trade is, how many vacancies Recruiting is allowed to fill that year,  and how many people want that trade, as to how likely you will be able to get the trade of choice quickly.


----------



## CivCanuck

DanDaMan said:
			
		

> Hello, I will be graduating with an engineering degree in May of 2008.  I am seriously considering going into the DEO program after I finish school.  I would like to know the deadline to make that decision so that I can begin training as soon as possible after I graduate.  When do I need to submit my application, and if I submit it early and get accepted, can I defer until after graduation?


I know how you feel on this one. Although I'm two years behind you, and still not close to being sure I want to join the military, this is something that I have thought about. I'm not the type of person who likes to start a job, have them spend money training you and count on you to help them, just to quit a  few months later. That's why the 9 year officer commitment doesn't really bother me much, I want a steady job, not to jump around when I see a bit more cash available somewhere else.  Also, if you're in the process of applying, you probably won't want to move to a new city to get a job, probably want to avoid buying a house, and just the not knowing would be a bit annoying.  Basically, even if training doesn't start for a little while, it would be nice to know one way or the other if you will have a military career or not.

But ... I guess that is not always possible. However, I _think_ I read on the recruiting site somewhere that you are able to apply once you are in the last year of your degree. Personally, some things I hope to do in the next couple of years to improve my chances and hopefully speed up the process:
- I hope to work at the CSE for a co-op term (key word: hope, and I planned to do this even without military plans), and they grant you the top security clearance before a job offer, so that may help on the security process
- maybe a year before seeing the recruiter, I'll go to my doctor and get a physical or at least ask about maybe getting some bloodwork and basic checks (blood pressure, etc.) to get any obvious problems out of the way nice and early
- look for any leadership, volunteer, fitness, etc. activities that I could get involved with in school or anywhere else
- talk to the recruiter early (beginning of last year of university) - even if I can't complete my application, it never hurts to at least see if you can get some of it out of the way early.

That's my basic plan (I tend to plan ahead), hopefully it works out well. But I still have a few years, so time will tell what happens.


----------



## CivCanuck

Flouf said:
			
		

> Hey Dan,
> 
> I just went through the same process, I applied at the end of September 2006 as a DEO EME. I did my interview at the end of October and got a job offer in early May, now I am going on BOTC on Aug 27. It is difficult to make it for the end of June basic because it almost requires that you submit your marks by mid April... and depending on your exam schedule, they may not be available yet.


Do you mean you were still in school through this (graduated April, 2006?)? Did you manage to get your marks in time or did you have to take a later BOTC?


----------



## Leafsfan

Hello, I'm new to the site. I've been thinking of joining and wanted to know a few things. I already have a degree but would like to get a graduate degree. Would the CF let me do a graduate degree at RMC? Also, would I enter as a cadet or 2nd Lt? And what plan would be best? The ROTP seems like it's only for undergraduate.

Also, the job I'd like to do is not posted as a "In Demand" area on the CF site, so does that mean that they are not hiring for that position? Sorry for all the questions, just been looking for these answers and can't really find anything out.

Thanks


----------



## Michael OLeary

All of your questions can best be answered, for the most current responses, by your local recruiting centre.

I can assure you, however, that you cannot join under the ROTP program and get a post-graduate degree instead of a Bachelor's degree.  Since you already have a degree, you will be looking at DEO (Direct Entry officer) programs.  depending on your career after that, you may be eligible for post-graduate training.


----------



## Adrian_888

Leafsfan said:
			
		

> Also, would I enter as a cadet or 2nd Lt?



Officer Cadett.


----------



## Michael OLeary

CFAO 11-6 -- COMMISSIONING AND PROMOTION POLICY -OFFICERS -REGULAR FORCE

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/011-06_e.asp



> 9.     DEO.  A Direct Entry Officer who is a graduate of a recognized
> university or of a suitable course of a recognized institute of technology
> who is enrolled directly from civilian life will be enrolled in the rank of
> officer cadet and commissioned in the rank of second lieutenant on
> successful completion of the BOTC.  The seniority date in the rank of
> second lieutenant will be the date of enrolment except that periods of
> leave without pay shall only be counted as provided for in paragraphs 32
> and 33 of the order and the commissioning and seniority dates shall be
> adjusted by NDHQ/DPCAO accordingly.


----------



## Leafsfan

Hi all,

I want to enroll in the regular forces as an officer. Does everyone come in at the rank of 2ndLT or do some come in as a LT and higher, etc?


----------



## George Wallace

Kid......Didn't we more or less answer that with your first forray on this site?  Yes some people do come in as 2Lt, if they have previous mil experience.  Some may come in as Captains if they are CFR'd from the rank of CWO.  Some may come in as a Capt if they are a Lawyer or Doctor with a very high education.  Don't, however, expect to come in as anything else than an OCdt.


----------



## novalava

Hi,

I am interested in DEO entry and my age is 53.  The age limit to enter is 56; so it is possible for me to join. But  I worry about military life since I am not so young. I would appreciate it if anyone let me know any considerations or ideas about DEO entry as an old person.


----------



## BC Old Guy

Most Reg F officer occupations have a DEO Variable Initial Engagement of 9 years.  If you have very specific skills that are in high demand in the CF (medical doctor with specific specialities), you MAY be able to convince the powers that be to shorten that commitment.

As an older person myself, I find that with age there also comes increased aches and pains, medical complications, and life experience that combine to slow the process. 

The only way you will find the final answer is go to the CFRC/D and talk to the staff about what you are interested in doing, and see what advise they provide.


----------



## Ergotracer

I have an administrative question.  Necropost yes; however the keyword search used was incentive pay, DEO, specialized skills, change of strength. And, this search led me to this 2004 thread and closest match.  

Recently, I received an offer of employment over the phone and the DEO salary proposed had been determined by my university education only.  The issue is that the incentive pay category (IPC) did not sufficiently account for other work experience, skills set, and coursework that had been acquired separately for professional qualifications (Canadian Board accreditations relevant to the CF trade offered). The CF does have this information on file.   The hiring manager simply wanted confirmation that my graduate degree would be completed prior to swearing in as this would put me in IPC #… As such, salary was not definitively established at the time of the job offer.  Interestingly, the IPC quoted was still lower than has been suggested on this thread (those who have comparable education). I realize there are many factors that determine IPC however.     

I suspect that the IPC quoted will stand unless I make a case for myself.  As such, when would it be appropriate and with whom do I address the possible oversight?  It is my understanding there is a specific file manager assigned to this trade; however I’m unclear about the proper channels to follow when dealing with pay matters, especially at this juncture. To protect myself, does it make better sense to remedy pay concerns with a pay clerk (?) at CFRC or with the hiring manager prior to swearing in and before BMOQ?  

If you have more recent experiences in this context, I would appreciate some guidance on how to approach pay issues delicately and efficiently.    

Thank you in advance for your time.  

ET


----------



## CFR FCS

Discuss the IPC issue with your file manager before you enrol and they can request a review. That being said the IPC policy has been changed so this old post might not be accurate naymore. IPC increases are usually reserved for applicants with prior CF service. Good Luck.


----------



## Bigg_H

Hello, I am turning 32 this year. I am in excellent physical shape and am confident I can handle the training. I would enter as a DEO. I am just wondering what a guy would do after 40 in the CF? I love History and Strategic studies, policy studies and etc, so graduate school is not out of the question. I was looking at the combat arms. 

The way I see it, I am at the twilight of my youth. When I spar with the younger guys at my gym I can more than keep up, so I know I'm not too old yet. But I have noticed my recovery time is slowing... Why do we have to get old!? My point is that I have always wanted to join the army, and given my age, I think this is my last chance. So I wanted to get an idea of what awaits a guy in the army after 40. 

Thanks again.


----------



## Pusser

I'm in the Navy after 40 and it seems pretty good.  You will get a little slower over the years.  It just means you have to hit harder!

Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill. ;D


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bigg_H said:
			
		

> Why do we have to get old!?


Because it beats the alternative?


----------



## PuckChaser

My dad transferred to the Regular Force at 42, and was able to outrun some of the young guys despite being a smoker.

Your recovery time will be longer, but I bet you'll do fine.


----------



## Alea

Hello Bigg_H,



> My point is that I have always wanted to join the army, and given my age, I think this is my last chance.



I will be 40 in September and in the process of joining myself. So to say that joining at 32 is your last chance? NO 
The only thing is that the lastest we join the less we have access to a retirement plan because, my understanding is that we have to have at least 25 years of service in the CF and the retirement age is 60 (unless that changed in the past year).
I'm personally joining knowing that I will not have a retirement plan from the CF other than the one "I'll make for myself". However, the money for the retirement plan will be taken off our salary and give back to us when we retire from the CF (I don't know if it is given back to the fullest amount or not).
That is something that was explained to me at my recruiting center.

If you join soon enough and are lucky enough to be enrolled before you reach 35... then you'll be all good for retirement 



> So I wanted to get an idea of what awaits a guy in the army after 40.



You'll be under the same physical and ethical rules as any other members in the CF and age doesn't change that. If the morning PT is a run of 5km, you'll run the same 5km as your other colleagues but I do agree that the older we get, the longer it is for us to recover from the effort provided. 


Good luck,
Alea


----------



## Pusser

You do not have to do 25 years to get a pension from the CF.  You only have to do two.  However, the number of years you serve will affect when you can collect it.  Under the new rules of the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act (CFSA), you need to complete 25 years of service in order to collect an immediate annuity (i.e. on e you start collecting as soon as you retire).  If you have more than two, but less than 25 years, you can get a deferred annuity that you will have to wait until you reach retirement age to collect (but it will be waiting for you).  You may also have the option of a return of contributions, which is all the money you've paid in over the years, plus interest.  Think VERY carefully about this option as you would be hard-pressed to find something as lucrative as the deferred annuity if you were to take the money and run (and please don't go out and buy a car with it).  If you are retiring because you have reached mandatory retirement age, you get an immediate annuity regardless.

Please note that this is a very simplified overview of the CFSA.  There is much more to it than I have described, but the above description will apply to most people.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Pusser said:
			
		

> Please note that this is a very simplified overview of the CFSA.  There is much more to it than I have described, but the above description will apply to most people.



The previously misinformed individual (and others) can have most questions answered by visiting the following site http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/ps/pen/reg-01/ap-ar/benefits-prestati-eng.asp .


----------



## aesop081

Pusser said:
			
		

> You may also have the option of a return of contributions, which is all the money you've paid in over the years, plus interest.



There is no return of contributions for people having served over 2 years.


----------



## Sprinting Thistle

The only caution I would add for someone joining the army "later in life" is your career path will be impeded by your age.  This means that if you have hopes of making it to the lofty rank of LCol or CWO (or beyond for offrs) the chances are slim to none.  The Army has adopted a "deep selection" programme whereby it is reaching down and plucking younger Offrs and NCOs and pushing them forward, faster.  This leaves the older members out in terms of critical career courses needed for further promotion and it reduces chances of commanding at the sub unit and unit level.  In the Army, for offrs, if you haven't reached the rank of major by late 30s you most likely won't command a sub unit, forget unit.  Same applies for older senior NCOs and taking up a position as a RSM.  Now there are exceptions but generally speaking the Army (and the Navy) are promoting younger. 

Should this be a reason to put aside your plans of joining?  Not really unless your goal is to make it to CWO of the CF or Commander of the Army.  However, it should temper your expectations and provide realism to your choices.  I know too many people still hanging on and hoping for that promotion or critical staff course, only the CoC has not told them (or they didn't hear the message) that they have gone as far as they can.


----------



## svejk

The Pension Plan has more or less the same Rules as a Defined Benefits Plan (as opposed to a defined contributions plan) at a civilian employer (although they are not seen as often as they used to): it would be the same thing as switching jobs from one employer to another.  As stated in the link, with less than 2 years pensionable service you get contributions plus interest back.  With more than 2 years it has to be transfered.  I do however know, that some pension plans are not transferable into others for various reasons (federal, provincial).  Anything over 2 years you get a pension related to pay grade and time in.

If you go Regular Force (without primary reserve experience)  after 30, I am thinking you are more or less stuck as a Captain or Sergeant.  Combat Arms is probably out too: training almost kills 18 year olds.

I am 36 and thinking of doing this as well since I have decided I am not a businessman:  Money matters work out fair enough and I am single.  Too bad I am broken for a bit.

Cheers.


----------



## kincanucks

_If you go Regular Force (without primary reserve experience)  after 30, I am thinking you are more or less stuck as a Captain or Sergeant.  Combat Arms is probably out too: training almost kills 18 year olds._

And you based this on what?


----------



## aesop081

svejk said:
			
		

> If you go Regular Force (without primary reserve experience)  after 30, I am thinking you are more or less stuck as a Captain or Sergeant.  Combat Arms is probably out too: training almost kills 18 year olds.



Since you are not even in yourself, why dont you leave that kind of speculation to people who might actualy know what they are talking about.


----------



## Alea

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Since you are not even in yourself, why dont you leave that kind of speculation to people who might actualy know what they are talking about.



I'm very curious... His profil says he is a Cpt (Captain) from CIC... what is CIC? ???

Alea


----------



## Scott

Cadet Instructor's Cadre. He's a Cadet Officer.


----------



## Pusser

svejk said:
			
		

> With more than 2 years it has to be transfered.  I do however know, that some pension plans are not transferable into others for various reasons (federal, provincial).



Not quite correct.  It does not HAVE to be transferred, although that might be an option.  Deferral is also an option.  This is where you leave it alone and you start to draw the pension later in life (i.e. at retirement age).  Keep in mind that it continues to grow as it sits there.  All federal pensions are transferable to other federal pensions (CF to RCMP to Public Service or other combinations thereof); however, if you're able to start drawing an immediate annuity (i.e. after 20/25 years) you're probably better off to do that and simply start paying into the new plan.


----------



## TheHead

svejk said:
			
		

> If you go Regular Force (without primary reserve experience)  after 30, I am thinking you are more or less stuck as a Captain or Sergeant.  Combat Arms is probably out too: training almost kills 18 year olds.



  I did my SQ and BIQ with a guy who was almost 40.   He would smoke a pack of cigerettes and drink 3 coffee for breakfast and he still managed to keep up most of the time with the younger recruits.   Heart alone kept him from quitting the course.


----------



## svejk

Totally agreed Pusser.  After 2 years transfer to another federal plan, transfer to an Locked In RRSP, or wait until 65 to collect monthly payments.  Isn't very different from civilian world.

Comments in regards to combat arms and rank possible  are "thinking" and "probably" and aren't the Final  Word by any means (these are forums?).  I also made those comments based on  conversations that I have had with NCOs and Offrs from Combat Arms on this very subject over the Years.  We all know guys who are older but still fitter than thou but they are an exception rather than rule, no?  Anything is possible though.

Cheers


----------



## SeanNewman

Being gym fit, running fit, or fighting fit does not equal soldier fit.  Combat Arms phase training has broken the spirits of hundreds of "fit" 20-35 year olds because it's a different type of fitness and toughness.

Being able to run a 40 minute 10km or doing a dozen reps of 225 does not mean that you can carry an 80 pound rucksack night after night after night of sleep deprivation while fighting off rain and mosquitoes, while still finding the courage to keep yourself motivated let alone inspiring your platoon to follow you.

I say this not to take the wind out of your sails, but because in order for you to succeed in the military it will be in your best interest to focus on what the next two years will involve than worrying about what you'll do after that.


----------



## Scott

svejk said:
			
		

> Comments in regards to combat arms and rank possible  are "thinking" and "probably" and aren't the Final  Word by any means (these are forums?).  I also made those comments based on  conversations that I have had with NCOs and Offrs from Combat Arms on this very subject over the Years.



Then you should have started your original statement with some thing like this:
"In conversation with an Officer/NCO..." or something similar because what you are giving out is second hand information.

Instead of trying to pass the thought of as your own.

Scott
Staff


----------



## Bigg_H

svejk said:
			
		

> If you go Regular Force (without primary reserve experience)  after 30, I am thinking you are more or less stuck as a Captain or Sergeant.  Combat Arms is probably out too: training almost kills 18 year olds.
> 
> I am 36 and thinking of doing this as well since I have decided I am not a businessman:  Money matters work out fair enough and I am single.  Too bad I am broken for a bit.



It is being stuck in a role that I am worried about and not so much the training. I am in excellent shape and so I am confident I would do well in the Combat arms, training and etc. Also, past 40, once the physical advantage that youth gives begins to wane, where does a guy in the combat arms go? Can he, for example, take a Master's degree and obtain a post as a 'thinker' or policy guy?


----------



## Bigg_H

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Being gym fit, running fit, or fighting fit does not equal soldier fit.  Combat Arms phase training has broken the spirits of hundreds of "fit" 20-35 year olds because it's a different type of fitness and toughness.
> 
> Being able to run a 40 minute 10km or doing a dozen reps of 225 does not mean that you can carry an 80 pound rucksack night after night after night of sleep deprivation while fighting off rain and mosquitoes, while still finding the courage to keep yourself motivated let alone inspiring your platoon to follow you.
> 
> I say this not to take the wind out of your sails, but because in order for you to succeed in the military it will be in your best interest to focus on what the next two years will involve than worrying about what you'll do after that.



I hear what you are saying. But I am not at that point where I will be signing a contract tomorrow and so I do need to consider the next 25 years, as I am planning a 25-year career and not a 2-year career. Besides, the worst case scenario that Army life doesn't appeal to me is at least a 9 year committment, so I have to think at least 9 years ahead. But were I to be signing a contract tomorrow, I would look on making it through each day of training instead of x number of years ahead.


----------



## TangoTwoBravo

Bigg_H said:
			
		

> It is being stuck in a role that I am worried about and not so much the training. I am in excellent shape and so I am confident I would do well in the Combat arms, training and etc. Also, past 40, once the physical advantage that youth gives begins to wane, where does a guy in the combat arms go? Can he, for example, take a Master's degree and obtain a post as a 'thinker' or policy guy?



If I am reading this thread correctly you are 32.  Assuming you joined in the near future you could be looking at being a 35 year old platoon commander/troop leader.  You would be older than your peers, but there are folks out there platoon/commanding troop leading in their 30s.

Assuming everything goes well at each stage (ie you are a rock star) I will try to map out a career path for you in the Armoured Corps (since it is what I know best):

a.   32 to 34 - Initial training (could be faster/might be slower)

b.   35 to 36 - Troop Leading tour at the Regiment.  Promoted Captain at some point there depending on your entry stream

c.   37 to 39- 1st ERE tour (extra regimental employment) most likely at the Armour School or as the Reg F Capt at a Reserve Unit

d.  40 to 42 - Captain tour at the Regiment (BC/2IC/Maybe big 3 job like Adjt/Ops O/2IC HQ Sqn)  

At this point you would be an experienced armoured officer, but you would be close to ten years older than your peers.  You would be a couple of years away from promotion to Major (assuming you had the performance/potential) and would be looking at being a 45/46 year old Sqn Commander.  I was a Troop Leader at 27 and I think that I am the oldest Squadron Commander (OC) right now at 39.  I don't think that we would have a 46 year old OC.  That doesn't mean you couldn't get promoted to Major and have challenging/rewarding jobs.  I would just be surprised if you stayed in the Command stream unless you did something like capture Bin Laden.

Those challenging jobs I refer to can be in any number of places like Doctrine, Training, Lessons Learned, equipment procurement, the DOTCOM HQs, etc.  If you were of an academic bent you could conceivably pursue a Masters (usually on your own time) and some guys go into thinking jobs where they talk about JIMP-capable network-enabled command centric dispersed operations.  You could certainly stay at Captain, but lots of folks do that regardless of age so it is something you need to be prepared for when you join.  I was ready for that and enjoyed my time as a Captain and would have served on as such.  You would face a disadvantage when being compared to younger peers since they would have "legs" while you would not.  It would be conceivable for you to not come back for that Captain tour at the Regiment but serve in a variety of Captain appointments in the Army/CF.  I think that you could still have a rewarding career, but I wouldn't plan on being a unit CO.


----------



## Pusser

Bigg_H said:
			
		

> I hear what you are saying. But I am not at that point where I will be signing a contract tomorrow and so I do need to consider the next 25 years, as I am planning a 25-year career and not a 2-year career. Besides, the worst case scenario that Army life doesn't appeal to me is at least a 9 year committment, so I have to think at least 9 years ahead. But were I to be signing a contract tomorrow, I would look on making it through each day of training instead of x number of years ahead.



Why do I keep hearing about nine year commitments?  What are the recruiting centres telling people?  What are people hearing?  

There is a difference between obligatory service and service required to complete an engagement (i.e. contract for lack of a better word).  You only have to remain in the CF for your period of obligatory service.  This usually varies between three and five years (there are exceptions of course).  However, you can get out before you finish your engagement.  You will take a hit on the benefits, but you can still get out.  The only folks really looking at anything close to a nine year commitment are the ROTP candidates who have their educations paid for.  This is because their obligatory service (usually 4/5 years) starts AFTER they finish RMC/civilian university.


----------



## aesop081

Pusser said:
			
		

> Why do I keep hearing about nine year commitments?



Because people either don't listen to what the CFRCs tell them or they read information on sites like this, information that they do not have the knowledge to put into the proper context.Then they think they have it figured out......

Not saying this is the case here but sometimes, a little information is a bad thing.


----------



## SeanNewman

Because for a lot of officer plans, nine years is the initial engagement the way three years is for a lot of NCM paths.


----------



## Pusser

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Because for a lot of officer plans, nine years is the initial engagement the way three years is for a lot of NCM paths.



No officer plan requires nine years obligatory service.  You may give up some benefits if you get out before nine years, but you can still get out.  Initial engagements for officers and NCMs are not the same.


----------



## George Wallace

Pusser said:
			
		

> No officer plan requires nine years obligatory service.  You may give up some benefits if you get out before nine years, but you can still get out.  Initial engagements for officers and NCMs are not the same.



I guess you are not in Recruiting.

VIE for MOC 21 ARMD   DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 22 ARTY    DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 23 INF       DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 31 ANAV    DEO is 6 years - ROTP   9 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 32 PLT       DEO is 9 years - ROTP 12 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 39 AEC       DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 41 AERE     DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 43 EME       DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 46 AF ENGR DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 49 PHY TH   DEO is 6 years - ROTP   9 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 51 DENT      DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
VIE for MOC 48 HCA        DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
.
.
VIE for MOC 67 LEGAL     DEO is 4 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
.
VIE for MOC 81 MPO       DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
.
.
.
.
and on and on. (I got tired of data entry but you can see that obligatory Service (VIE) varies from 0 to 13 years, with the average being 9 for DEO and 13 for ROTP.  Some Trades as MOC 54 PHARM, 57 NUR, 55 MED, and 56 BIO also have a CE of 5 years.)
   



VIE for MOC 57 nur    DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - CE 5 years - IE 25


----------



## SeanNewman

Pusser,

Technically you're right, because I have seen all sorts of my peers quit over the last decade without going to jail.

Most of the penalties would be financial, in terms of having to pay for your education if you were either ROTP or RMC, but if you're a CEOTP or DEO it's a relatively clean break.  

I don't know the details of how the pension thing works, but I do know that people quit during training and quit after training and were civilians within a year or so.


----------



## Blackadder1916

> . . . you can see that obligatory Service (VIE) varies . . .]



Obligatory service (mandatory service incurred as a result of subsidized education or training) is different than VIE (terms of service).

ADM(HR-MIL) INSTRUCTION 05/05 stills lists CFAO 15-2 Release – Regular Force as a reference.  Since CFAOs are no longer available online to the unwashed (or retired), I was only able to access a copy on an old OLTRS disk.  It may have been since amended, if so, I welcome the correction.  However, this paragraph may be applicable to the discussion.



> CFAO 15-2 Annex A
> RELEASE -ENROLMENT ON OR AFTER 1 JAN 82
> 
> 39.  A member, except those serving under ROTP, MOTP, DOTP, or DITP, who
> enrols, re-enrols or transfers into the Regular Force on or after 1 Jan 82,
> and requests voluntary release, will not normally have that request
> approved, except during a period of recruit training as specified in
> paragraph 36 of this annex, for a period of three years commencing from the
> date of enrolment unless compassionate circumstances exist.  *Subject to the
> requirement to complete the initial three year period of service*, a member
> must submit that request at least six months in advance of the preferred
> date of release or the commencement of terminal leave whichever is earlier.
> Subject to *deferral for a military requirement*, as prescribed in paragraph
> 44 of this annex, *the request will normally be approved to be effective on
> the date requested*.  Should military and personal requirements be
> compatible, the six-month period of notice may be reduced by the approving
> authority at NDHQ.



While the NDA provides the legal authority to keep serving soldiers in uniform until they have completed every day of a term of service to which they agreed (and more involuntarily in case of certain emergency periods), there is plenty of latitude in how that has been applied with many exceptions being given; so many that the exception probably became the rule.


----------



## SeanNewman

My first instinct is that I wouldn't want anyone in the Army who doesn't want to be there, I change that opinion when considering all of the undesirable jobs that most people don't want to do.

The same way I wouldn't want a conscript fighting beside me, I also wouldn't want a guy who has changed his mind about wanting to be there.

That being said, you could easily keep the "quitters" in the CF and far away from life and death decisions.  The could do everything from commissionaire-like jobs (think permanent duty officer so nobody else ever has to do it), to floating members who do all the mundane jobs like shoveling snow (Pte/Cpls) or Summary Investigations (2Lt/Lts).

Basically, it would allow all of those people who are living up to their commitment obligations to focus on their chosen profession, be it being a soldier or leading soldiers.

It's not like they're getting punished or sent to jail; they're just living up to what they signed on for, and now they have to do less-than-ideal jobs (like being posted to Wainwright so someone else doesn't have to be).


----------



## Pusser

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I guess you are not in Recruiting.
> 
> VIE for MOC 21 ARMD   DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 22 ARTY    DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 23 INF       DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 31 ANAV    DEO is 6 years - ROTP   9 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 32 PLT       DEO is 9 years - ROTP 12 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 39 AEC       DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 41 AERE     DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 43 EME       DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 46 AF ENGR DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 49 PHY TH   DEO is 6 years - ROTP   9 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 51 DENT      DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - IE 25
> VIE for MOC 48 HCA        DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
> .
> .
> VIE for MOC 67 LEGAL     DEO is 4 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
> .
> VIE for MOC 81 MPO       DEO is 9 years - ROTP 13 years  - IE 25
> .
> .
> .
> .
> and on and on. (I got tired of data entry but you can see that obligatory Service (VIE) varies from 0 to 13 years, with the average being 9 for DEO and 13 for ROTP.  Some Trades as MOC 54 PHARM, 57 NUR, 55 MED, and 56 BIO also have a CE of 5 years.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIE for MOC 57 nur    DEO is 6 years - ROTP 10 years  - CE 5 years - IE 25



A VIE is not obligatory service.  The VIE replaced the old Short Service Engagement (SSE)and Short Engagement (SE) for officers.  The SSE was essentially your time as an officer cadet (it was easy to terminate and, therfore, made it easy to get rid of training failures).  The SE was more or less equivalent to the NCMs' Basic Engagement (BE).  The SE was nine years commissioned service, which meant that an ROTP officer would normally complete 13 years of service (4 yrs at school, + 9 yrs) before being able to get out with full benefits  for completing his/her terms of service.  This did not mean that he/she had 9 or 13 years of obligatory service.  The same applies under the newer VIE (i.e. not much has actually changed).  A candidate is only committed to obligatory service.  They will give up benefits for not completing their term of service (ie. the VIE), but they can still get out without too much difficulty before completing it.

You can get out under certain circumstances even if you haven't completed your obligatory service, but that is more difficult.


----------



## northernboy_24

obligatory service  DAOD 5049-1

http://www.admfincs-smafinsm.forces.gc.ca/dao-doa/5000/5049-1-eng.asp

to bring clarification as to what is obligatory vs. Variable initial contract


----------



## Shotta

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Kid......Didn't we more or less answer that with your first forray on this site?  Yes some people do come in as 2Lt, if they have previous mil experience.  Some may come in as Captains if they are CFR'd from the rank of CWO.  Some may come in as a Capt if they are a Lawyer or Doctor with a very high education.  Don't, however, expect to come in as anything else than an OCdt.



Is OCDT the only rank available on enrolment for officers in the Primary Reserves too?


----------



## iron_mike

hi everyone -

i've done some reading up here and on the CF website, but it's always nice to have some human opinions, too.  

i'm coming toward the end of my PhD in anthropology and am considering applying to the CF.  intelligence officer seems like it fits my skills and interest.  

on most aspects of recruitment i feel fine - i'm in excellent shape, good health, speak a few languages, etc.  i was with the cadets as a kid, so range and drill might come back to me a bit easier than a complete rookie.  

however, since the age of 10 i've lived in about 8 countries and traveled to 40 or so.  things like listing my addresses will be a serious challenge - i literally can't remember them all.  similarly, providing medical records - i haven't had a conisistent family doctor since i was a kid.  

so i'm guessing that if i go through with it, the recruitment process for me would take ages?

also, does anyone have any insights in entering CF with a PhD?  any changes in entry rank etc?  

and specific insights into the intelligence officer track?


thanks!
-mike


----------



## George Wallace

Several things -mike:

First it is hard to take someone seriously who claims to have numerous Degrees and can't use proper grammar.  (See Army.ca Conduct Guidelines)  If your written form is as bad as your post, you will not pass the strict standards expected of your written products.

Second thing would be that if you can not provide a list of locations you have lived, nor not have lived in Canada, dating back ten years (with no break in timeline), then you are not likely to get a Security Clearance.  Without a Security Clearance you are not likely to be accepted into the CF, especially in the Intelligence field.  All this on top of the long line ups of people currently in the Recruiting Process or aspiring to start that process, a process that is currently frozen.

Currently the INT Branch has a two to three year backlog in applicants, and is weeding them out.


----------



## Cdnleaf

iron_mike said:
			
		

> hi everyone -
> i've done some reading up here and on the CF website, but it's always nice to have some human opinions, too.
> i'm coming toward the end of my PhD in anthropology and am considering applying to the CF.  intelligence officer seems like it fits my skills and interest.
> on most aspects of recruitment i feel fine - i'm in excellent shape, good health, speak a few languages, etc.  i was with the cadets as a kid, so range and drill might come back to me a bit easier than a complete rookie.
> however, since the age of 10 i've lived in about 8 countries and traveled to 40 or so.  things like listing my addresses will be a serious challenge - i literally can't remember them all.  similarly, providing medical records - i haven't had a conisistent family doctor since i was a kid.
> so i'm guessing that if i go through with it, the recruitment process for me would take ages?
> \also, does anyone have any insights in entering CF with a PhD?  any changes in entry rank etc?
> and specific insights into the intelligence officer track?
> thanks!
> -mike



Human opinions as opposed to what, opinions from those with non-retractable thumbs?  ;D  Anyways, your PhD will get you 2 or 3 points if/when you're eventually merited for promotion.  OCdt to Capt is pretty automatic providing you keep out the schmidt and pass all courses; Common Army Phase should be fun if you get there.  I don't work with CFRG, however believe as a DEO to Int O, your degree will not accord you any particular advantage compared to those with a BA.  All the best / Dan.


----------



## jackel_99

Though yes a PhD will help you along your track, as cdnleaf says, I don't think it will fast track you as much as you assume it would.  You should have saved the 4 - 6 years of doing a masters and PhD, and joined when you had a BA.  By now you would have been promoted, and on your way to a great career.  There are many great people in the forces who have the drive, determination and skills that only have a BA.  Trust me you will have competition from many people, who didn't spend 5 years getting a PhD.

** Though it does help a little, personally I would have stopped at a Masters**

On a side note, you cannot enter the CF as an int officer.  You must transfer into the trade from another, and there is a long line up.  Therefore you must join a trade, such as arty and stick it out for a while until you transfer.

Your Anthropology major might not help you as much as you think either, and obviously limits some of the choices you can go into (engineering .. medical ..)

I don't know if you have a great passion to be a member of the forces, or you have just realized holy crap I need a job ... but I would think about what would be best for your education.  Obviously you are smart, perhaps CSIS or foreign affairs would be another option if you don't want to compete with 25 year olds with a BA ;D

just my personal opinion


----------



## George Wallace

jackel_99 said:
			
		

> just my personal opinion



Yes.  Your personal opinion.  Perhaps you'd like to also post from where you are coming from to make such an opinion so as to give the OP the benifit of knowing from whence it came.  Looking at your profile, you owe the OP an explanation.


----------



## Journeyman

jackel_99 said:
			
		

> just my personal opinion
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at your profile, you owe the OP an explanation.
Click to expand...

Sorry George, I have to disagree. 

A quick glance through a posting history shows a track record of recruiting advice from someone not even in the CF -- no further explanation required.



			
				jackel_99 said:
			
		

> I am interested in becoming a MARS officer....





			
				jackel_99 said:
			
		

> The line for INT officer is years long ... Thats what I was going to do





			
				jackel_99 said:
			
		

> I applied for DEO Armour





			
				jackel_99 said:
			
		

> Life in the military is not "easy" and it changes with the wind....expect to go overseas once every 3 years or so for a tour





			
				jackel_99 said:
			
		

> Being an officer will help after the military, but your degree will be what really helps you.




And my favourite  ;D


			
				jackel_99 said:
			
		

> My only problem with the game is that me and all my peeps are still playing MW2 daily...



*Quite often, free advice is worth exactly what's paid  *


----------



## iron_mike

Hello everyone, and thanks for the feedback.  Briefly:

-George: I'm sorry if my grammar or style was inappropriate; I didn't mean any disrespect.  Other than assuring you that my written and verbal communication skills are excellent, and assuring you that I have a good command of the language in my publications and in my professional work, I'm not sure how to convince you to "take me seriously" as someone with "numerous degrees."  I'm confident, though, of my ability to pass standards for written work and don't believe that would be a serious obstacle to a military career for me, though I appreciate the concern.

-As for recruitment, though, you seem  be to saying that the process is logjammed right now and I'd be looking at a serious wait.  Do you think it's best to begin the process while I have other 'irons in other fires'?  I can't realistically be unemployed for 2 years while waiting for an answer! 

-cdnleaf: Considering my 9-5 work, yes - I often need to go out of my way to get opinions from primates with opposable thumbs!  Thanks for the input and it's nice to know the extra degrees might help even a little bit.

-jackel: Thanks for the input.  To be honest, I pursued the training I did because I had a passion for the material and the work, and because I thought I might help some people along the way (I do health/development research).  A CF career option was in the cards when I was a teen, but I've always figured education is a good investment regardless.  I'm 30 now and as fit as I was when I was 18, so I'm not too worried about having to compete with 24-year-olds!  CSIS and DFAIT are also avenues I'm exploring right now.  They're also looking at long backlogs and even recruitment freezes, so I'm trying to learn about all my options at this point.  I don't graduate for another year, so now seems like the time to be laying the groundwork.

-journeyman: Thanks for the . . . um. . . fact checking.  

Thanks again all.  I don't live in Canada, so visiting a recruiter isn't an option for the time being.  Glad for this forum, though - it's a great resource!


-Mike


----------



## FDO

Lets do this one line at a time;

hough yes a PhD will help you along your track, as cdnleaf says, I don't think it will fast track you as much as you assume it would. 

The higher your education and the better your marks gives you a better score when calculating your "Military Potential" So yes a PHD is better than a BA (Bachelor of Anything) Sorry if that offend any BA's

You should have saved the 4 - 6 years of doing a masters and PhD, and joined when you had a BA. 

Didn't realize getting a PHD was a waste if time. Good thing I know that I'll scratch it off my "bucket List"

By now you would have been promoted, and on your way to a great career. 

Really, You have a crystal ball that says if he joins now he WON'T have a good career and get promoted?

There are many great people in the forces who have the drive, determination and skills that only have a BA.

PHD = Slug? And here I thought you needed drive and determination to get a PHD. I guess they DO come in a Cracker Jack box!!

This one in my fav!!

On a side note, you cannot enter the CF as an int officer.  You must transfer into the trade from another, and there is a long line up.  Therefore you must join a trade, such as arty and stick it out for a while until you transfer.

I guess thins have changed since I was a Recruiter in February. We were hiring INT O straight off the street back then and for the 3 years I was a Recruiter.

The rest is just to idiotic to comment on except this;

just my personal opinion

Keep it to yourself!!!

Iron_mike

Go in and talk to a RECRUITER in a RECRUITING CENTRE!! They will be able to give you all the info you want. Have a list of questions and ask them one at a time and write down the answers so you have them for later reference. Look on line or in the Yellow Pages for a Recruiting Office near you!!


----------



## George Wallace

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Sorry George, I have to disagree.
> 
> A quick glance through a posting history shows a track record of recruiting advice from someone not even in the CF -- no further explanation required.



Actually, that was the point I was making.


----------



## Michael OLeary

iron_mike said:
			
		

> -As for recruitment, though, you seem  be to saying that the process is logjammed right now and I'd be looking at a serious wait.  Do you think it's best to begin the process while I have other 'irons in other fires'?  I can't realistically be unemployed for 2 years while waiting for an answer!



Yes, the system is jammed up right now, with many trades and occupations having no definite openings in sight.  But, if it's something you really want, start the process. At the same time, pursue your best other options with equal determination.  If your recruiting process takes a year or more, your situation may have changed to the extent that a CF career may not be your best, or preferred, option.  When you find yourself at that decision point, you can reassess the viability of your CF application and withdraw it at any time.


----------



## Journeyman

_iron_mike_, check your PMs.

The "fact checking" had to suffice because personal attacks on site members is not allowed. Use the info as you see fit.


----------



## Cdnleaf

iron_mike said:
			
		

> Hello everyone, and thanks for the feedback.  Briefly:
> 
> -cdnleaf: Considering my 9-5 work, yes - I often need to go out of my way to get opinions from primates with opposable thumbs!  Thanks for the input and it's nice to know the extra degrees might help even a little bit.



 :cheers:  Healthy sense of humour will bode you a long way in the CF.  Good luck with the process and sincere congratulations on completing your PhD; a noteworthy accomplishment in any discipline/profession.


----------



## Pusser

iron_mike said:
			
		

> -jackel: Thanks for the input.  To be honest, I pursued the training I did because I had a passion for the material and the work, and because I thought I might help some people along the way (I do health/development research).  A CF career option was in the cards when I was a teen, but I've always figured education is a good investment regardless.



There is no finer argument for the pursuit of education.  This is supposed to be what higher education is all about.  Universities are not job training centres!  Good luck in your work.


----------



## Labtc

Hello, this is my first post, but i've been reading things on these message boards for a few months now. I'm a year from graduating from a civilian university and planning on applying as a DEO officer (I'd like either Armour or Artillery). My major is military history and my minor is psychology. I was wondering how important marks are as a DEO applicant? Mine aren't terrible, but they aren't great either (2.5 GPA), so do your marks matter a great deal in the application process? I know the RMC has pretty high standards, and if I partied a little less in my first two years of school I'd probably have much higher marks also. Anyone with any knowlage of this please let me know. Thanks


----------



## mathabos

If the criteria for a DEO candidate is the same at for ROTP then I would say that you need to look at 
other factors on top of marks.

During an interview, the recruiter is looking for a well rounded person. They look for extra curricular activities 
that involve some sort of leadership skill (especially for officer candidates).
For example: volunteering, team sports, being the president of an association at your school, etc.

I would say that good marks do help but they are not the only factor to be considered.


----------



## Pusser

Once you have a degree, the most important thing is that you have the degree.  I would suggest concentrating on the other aspects of your resume (since you can't go back and un-party anyway).


----------



## mattg

I am thinking of joining up through the DEO plan and was wondering if anyone here could answer some questions I have.

From what I can tell from the CF recruiting site, some DEO candidates are commissioned as 2nd LT while others immediately as a full LT. Is this the case? Also, why would some start off with a higher rank? (ie level of education education, language proficiency, career path in the forces, previous leadership experience, etc)

Thanks in advance for your help

Matt


----------



## Trick

I'm a little curious about this myself. If you don't mind my asking, what are you looking to do? My understanding is that pilots don't follow the normal line, and I imagine the same is true for a few other trades. I know this is the case in some, especially more technical, NCM trades.


----------



## mattg

I'd like to get a position as an intelligence officer, which from my understanding progresses along normal lines (as opposed to pilots, medical officers, etc), except that there are fewer positions for promotion past the rank of Captain, so it would be more competitive than say an infantry or armored officer. I'm interested in how intitial rank is determined because I have a masters degree in a relevant field and some previous leadership experience.


----------



## Drag

Commissions directly to LT and Capt depend on the trade and military experience.  As a DEO with no previous service you would only get commissioned to a rank other then 2Lt if your trade calls for it.  While most of those trades require advanced degrees, not necessarily, since I believe MPs get commissioned to Lt and require only a bachelor.  Having a PhD will not get you commissioned to anything other then 2Lt in the infantry for example.  However, having an advanced degree will get you in at a higher pay incentive level.


----------



## mattg

Thanks for the help.


----------



## farley84

Good day,

I just got back from CFRC to find out about my file, and I was told that my file is looking very good. The recruiter told me that selection hasnt happened yet for my trade as a DEO from my understanding doesnt start BMOQ until at least the fall. I am curious to find out when DEO selections are made and how do they figure what trades will go to basic. When i applied i was told my trade was in demand and under subscribed which in my mind is a bonus for me. However another recruiter told me a couple months ago that they were getting my job offer ready which turns out to be a lil false lol. If anyone has any knowledge of how this works I am very interested in hearing it.

Cheers

Also lets take a moment for those who gave their lives on D-Day


----------



## sky777

What I heard about selection for DEO. I am not sure if it is true or false. May be somebody can correct me.
There are 2 kinds of selections- national and local .It depends of trades. Some trades are national selections,some-local.
I heard that local DEO selection can be every week. But selection usually 1-2 months before next BMOQ.
Next BMOQ can be in September, 2011.
I am also waiting selection for DEO and hope to be in next BMOQ.
Hey guys and girls, who are waiting for BMOQ ,join this topic.


----------



## CFR FCS

Sky 777,
You are correct, there are two types of selection.

National selections done by CFRG or in some specialist occupations done by a board in NDHQ. NSL selection dates are available to the CFRCs. 

Open selections are done by the production staff at the CFRCs. They normally select only when there are open positions on BMOQ. You friendly neighbourhood CFRC should be able to tell you if your occupation choice is OSL or NSL and if it NSL when the next selection board is convened. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Trick

Going for DEO Infantry myself, only just applied last week in Toronto. Will be writing my CFAT on the 28th. We'll see how long the process takes- I'm worried it'll be slowed down by my 8 months studying in Germany and the fact that like many university grads, I'm walking around with about 30k in student loans.


----------



## Ayrsayle

Trick - it is my understanding after talking with the recruiters that student debt is not considered as "bad" debt, as long as it remained within reason for your program. What they seemed to be more concerned about was how much other debt you had - I would assume this means debts to collection agencies, your credit score and credit history with major institutions (Banks, Credit Cards, etc). I was told in no uncertain terms not to worry about the 22k I had from my time in University.

I'm also attempting to get into Infantry via the DEO route. Good news is that there is still positions available (as of today)!


----------



## Silverfire

Trick said:
			
		

> Going for DEO Infantry myself, only just applied last week in Toronto. Will be writing my CFAT on the 28th. We'll see how long the process takes- I'm worried it'll be slowed down by my 8 months studying in Germany and the fact that like many university grads, I'm walking around with about 30k in student loans.



The credit check is for serious debts.  Like the verge of bankruptcy sort.  The way it was explained to me, they can't really hire anyone who's swimming through piles of past due bills for a few reasons like being more likely to be distracted, shows poor financial management, etc.  Whether or not that's the official reason, as mentioned previously, there is good and bad debt.  School falls under good.


----------



## sky777

CFR FCS said:
			
		

> Sky 777,
> You are correct, there are two types of selection.
> 
> National selections done by CFRG or in some specialist occupations done by a board in NDHQ. NSL selection dates are available to the CFRCs.
> 
> Open selections are done by the production staff at the CFRCs. They normally select only when there are open positions on BMOQ. You friendly neighbourhood CFRC should be able to tell you if your occupation choice is OSL or NSL and if it NSL when the next selection board is convened.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Sure.Thanks  *CFR FCS  *for explanations and additional information.
NSL-  National Selection (By CFRG)
OSL- Open Selection (By local CFRC)
Your post are usually much helpful and  informative.


----------



## sky777

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> I'm also attempting to get into Infantry via the DEO route. Good news is that there is still positions available (as of today)!


Welcome to the club.
I hope we can be in next BMOQ.


----------



## Trick

sky777 said:
			
		

> Welcome to the club.
> I hope we can be in next BMOQ.



Ha yeah, good luck to you both- perhaps we'll see each other at BMOQ! Does anyone know if Infantry Officer is local or national?


----------



## Ayrsayle

I was told by my interviewer that Infantry selection was done onsite (So Local, or at least in New Westminster). I was also informed (when I asked) that there was no firm date set for BMOQ at this point. While he did not come out and say my chances were good, he did seem quite happy with the interview and to make sure to check with him in three weeks if I had not already been contacted (I was Merit listed that day).

My Question: Assuming my Application is successful, but BMOQ will not occur until say Jan - will I be given my offer as soon as possible or much closer to the date of BMOQ?


----------



## sky777

Trick said:
			
		

> Ha yeah, good luck to you both- perhaps we'll see each other at BMOQ! Does anyone know if Infantry Officer is local or national?


Yes,I hope we can see each other.
You can also ask your CFRC about Infantry Officer.I call them  2time per month to check my file status.
About myself.
I applied for 2 positions:
1.Construction Engineering (in demand) - NSL
2.Electrical and Mechanical Engineering -OSL


----------



## sky777

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> My Question: Assuming my Application is successful, but BMOQ will not occur until say Jan - will I be given my offer as soon as possible or much closer to the date of BMOQ?


Usually much closer to the date of BMOQ (1-2 months).I heard about probable BMOQ in September 20011  from my local CFRC .
Don't be upset you must have hope to be ASAP in BMOQ.
Look at me. I applied in August,2009 but I still have hope that everything will be fine. Good luck man!


----------



## Ayrsayle

Not upset at all, actually. I was expecting things to take much longer then this to get to this point. Let me know if you hear anything positive!


----------



## reboog

Does anyone know how often the local selections happen? I was merit listed for Eng Officer (OSL) a couple of weeks ago and the recruiter told me I should be hearing from them any day now.


----------



## Trick

I would imagine it's different for each area. I don't know this, but from what I've seen it seems that certain areas have a certain number of positions to give out, so it's probably more up to them. Best bet as always is the awkward phone call though. Congrats on the Merit Listing!


----------



## sky777

Any news girls and guys?


----------



## Ayrsayle

I'm in the same boat with the "any day now" - I was told 2-3 weeks, about..... two weeks ago? Figure I'll go in and ask on Thursday, seeing as how I move out to Edmonton Friday (making asking in person a wee bit more difficult). Cross your fingers guys, judgement day is soon to be upon us (grins). If anyone hears anything, post something on this thread (as we will all likely hear something around that time)


----------



## reboog

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> I'm in the same boat with the "any day now" - I was told 2-3 weeks, about..... two weeks ago? Figure I'll go in and ask on Thursday, seeing as how I move out to Edmonton Friday (making asking in person a wee bit more difficult). Cross your fingers guys, judgement day is soon to be upon us (grins). If anyone hears anything, post something on this thread (as we will all likely hear something around that time)



Haha my "2-3 weeks" has been almost a full month now. I get excited pretty much every time my phone rings during business hours.


----------



## George2

Save your local CFRC phone number and customize the ring tone.


----------



## Trick

George2 said:
			
		

> Save the your local CFRC phone number and customize the ring tone.



Ha, I'm not sure if you're serious, but I'm actually doing that...


----------



## sky777

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> I'm in the same boat with the "any day now" - I was told 2-3 weeks, about..... two weeks ago? Figure I'll go in and ask on Thursday, seeing as how I move out to Edmonton Friday (making asking in person a wee bit more difficult). Cross your fingers guys, judgement day is soon to be upon us (grins). If anyone hears anything, post something on this thread (as we will all likely hear something around that time)


Did you go go in and ask on Thursday?


----------



## Ayrsayle

I called on Wed, still no update. Don't panic man, I'll be sure to post something up here as soon as I know anything.

Hurry up and wait


----------



## Brandon J

Hey guys,
I have been following this thread and figured I'd contribute some information.  I applied DEO Infantry Officer on April 1, 2011 at CFRC-Ottawa and was merit listed in early May.  I left a message for my file manager on July 4th to make sure everything was in order still and if they were aware of when the DEO Infantry Officer selections would take place.  A new file manager responded and informed me that I have an offer for a position in the CF, however all the details are not yet finalized, and he would be contacting me in 2 weeks time with a formal offer as I would be beginning BMOQ in September and they are extremely busy right now.  The ball seems to be rolling for us DEO applicants and I hope some more of you get some good news soon.  Best of luck to all of you!!

Cheers


----------



## sky777

Brandon J said:
			
		

> A new file manager responded and informed me that I have an offer for a position in the CF, however all the details are not yet finalized, and he would be contacting me in 2 weeks time with a formal offer as I would be beginning BMOQ in September and they are extremely busy right now.  The ball seems to be rolling for us DEO applicants and I hope some more of you get some good news soon.  Best of luck to all of you!!


Good news!!!!!
Best of luck to all of us!!!


----------



## Ayrsayle

Thanks for the info Brandon - much appreciated! Congrats as well.


----------



## Ayrsayle

As an update - I have received an e-mail from my file manager as well in Vancouver - Accepted as a DEO Infantry Officer.

The news IS going out, or will be shortly for others.


----------



## AERO2012

Brandon J said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> I have been following this thread and figured I'd contribute some information.  I applied DEO Infantry Officer on April 1, 2011 at CFRC-Ottawa and was merit listed in early May.  I left a message for my file manager on July 4th to make sure everything was in order still and if they were aware of when the DEO Infantry Officer selections would take place.  A new file manager responded and informed me that I have an offer for a position in the CF, however all the details are not yet finalized, and he would be contacting me in 2 weeks time with a formal offer as I would be beginning BMOQ in September and they are extremely busy right now.  The ball seems to be rolling for us DEO applicants and I hope some more of you get some good news soon.  Best of luck to all of you!!
> 
> Cheers



Muchas gracias Brandon por la noticia.

Congratulations.


----------



## Ayrsayle

So, do you think we are jumping the gun a bit if we either make a thread or facebook group for those of us going on our BMOQ in Sept?

Just an Idea - I'd like to get to know you guys before I get there.


----------



## AERO2012

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> As an update - I have received an e-mail from my file manager as well in Vancouver - Accepted as a DEO Infantry Officer.
> 
> The news IS going out, or will be shortly for others.



Congratulations! Let's hope for the best.


----------



## reboog

Brandon J said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> I have been following this thread and figured I'd contribute some information.  I applied DEO Infantry Officer on April 1, 2011 at CFRC-Ottawa and was merit listed in early May.  I left a message for my file manager on July 4th to make sure everything was in order still and if they were aware of when the DEO Infantry Officer selections would take place.  A new file manager responded and informed me that I have an offer for a position in the CF, however all the details are not yet finalized, and he would be contacting me in 2 weeks time with a formal offer as I would be beginning BMOQ in September and they are extremely busy right now.  The ball seems to be rolling for us DEO applicants and I hope some more of you get some good news soon.  Best of luck to all of you!!
> 
> Cheers




Congrats Brandon, it's good to hear that they're finally starting selections. Fingers crossed!


----------



## Trick

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> As an update - I have received an e-mail from my file manager as well in Vancouver - Accepted as a DEO Infantry Officer.
> 
> The news IS going out, or will be shortly for others.



Awesome man! Congratulations! Hopefully in another 6ish months I'll be in the same position. Still waiting on that backcheck. I can't remember who the other guy around here who was going for Infantry Officer is, but I'm glad to know you got it!


----------



## Brandon J

Congratulations to Ayrsayle!!!  Looks like we'll be at the same BMOQ.  To everyone waiting on an offer, best of luck and hopefully you hear from your file managers soon with good news.


----------



## jmusic88

Let's definately create a facebook group for the guys or girls that will be going to BMOQ in september! Who is up for creating it and then sharing it here? 

Any possible EME Officers here??


----------



## Ayrsayle

I will happily set it up - just send me your ID in a PM and I'll send out the invites. At the moment I think it is just us three on the Forums - Two INF, One EME. I'm sure we'll see more in the next few weeks.


----------



## cnobbs84

I have been merit listed for HCA, Inf O and Armour O. Still waiting lol


----------



## reboog

jmusic88 said:
			
		

> Let's definately create a facebook group for the guys or girls that will be going to BMOQ in september! Who is up for creating it and then sharing it here?
> 
> Any possible EME Officers here??



I'm on the EME list but my first choice is Eng Off =)


----------



## jmusic88

So did you get an offer for the EME position? or are you still on the merit list?



			
				reboog said:
			
		

> I'm on the EME list but my first choice is Eng Off =)


----------



## reboog

jmusic88 said:
			
		

> So did you get an offer for the EME position? or are you still on the merit list?



No, I was all excited since a lot of you guys have been getting offers, so I called my CFRC (Montreal) today to ask if they had any news. They said selection hasn't happened yet and to sit tight some more. So yeah I'm still on the list.


----------



## sky777

I called today and couldn't reach file manager.I just checked file status - no changes for today.It is time to wait.
1st choice Construction Eng. (National Selection Board)
2nd choice EME (Local Selection Board)
For now I like more EME.But I don't know how many spots are opened and if our local (Montreal CFRC) will have selection for EME .


----------



## AERO2012

I am also a DEO applicant (on the merit list) from Montreal.


----------



## jmusic88

Yeah I see that Montreal is not calling their applicants yet. Good luck to you all! I hope you guys get the position that you guys want!


----------



## sky777

I visited today Montreal CFRC.It  looks like some key people on vacation now.But I received some information.
May be  it can be usefull for somebody.
Next National Selection Board for Construction Engineers will be at August,26,2011.There are 15 places.
About EME.This is Local Selection.I don't have any information about how many they need or when will be  next Local Selection for EME in our CFRC.
But we can see that *jmusic88 * already got job offer from his local CFRC as EME.


----------



## AERO2012

sky777 said:
			
		

> I visited today Montreal CFRC.It  looks like some key people on vacation now.But I received some information.
> May be  it can be usefull for somebody.
> Next National Selection Board for Construction Engineers will be at August,26,2011.There are 15 places.
> About EME.This is Local Selection.I don't have any information about how many they need or when will be  next Local Selection for EME in our CFRC.
> But we can see that *jmusic88 * already got job offer from his local CFRC as EME.



Special thanks for the info.


----------



## AERO2012

At least we know ( Gracias to Ayrsayle) that the next BMOQ will start Sept. 26.


----------



## Ayrsayle

no worries guys, fingers crossed for all of you. I didn't get my phone call til this morning.


----------



## Vetter

Hey everyone!

Applied as an Armoured Officer (DEO) at the end of April and am just now hearing from my references that they have been contacted.  Hoping to see everyone this fall!


----------



## adam0516

Applied as DEO Infantry, my references are being contacted now, everything else is done, so I hope to be there with you guys in Sept. !


----------



## sky777

There is some updated information.
Montreal CFRC started to make job offer calls for some trades.
I called to CFRC and they said about National selection for ConstrEng 19 August 2011 and local selection for EME at 26 August 2011.
But a few month ago I heard National selection for ConstrEng 26 August 2011.
Are there people who are waiting for Constr Eng or EME?
And one questions to all. Is local selection can be done for specific trades or for any trades local selection can be done anytime?


----------



## pedro22

Just called the Montreal CFRC today. I was told that Armour Officer is closed and that local selection for Infantry Officer will occur on August 25th.


----------



## pedro22

Next French BMOQ will start on October 24th.

http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/menu/cfc-ecc/dc-cd/index-eng.asp

I was also told by the Captain who interviewed me at the beginning of July that most of the positions that had to be filled for Infantry Officer were for the French course.


----------



## NBiederman

I'm just wondering if anyone has any idea when the Hamilton RC is going to be offering jobs for DEO Infantry? I was just merit listed and was told I ranked high (at what position exactly, I'm not sure). It appears people are starting to get good news, but I cannot find anyone form Hamilton, unless I've overlooked them.


----------



## Ayrsayle

It is the whole "wait and see" game - have you been waiting longer then a month to hear anything (if so, give them a call and ask about the status of your application), if not - patience.

I am in a similar boat - so far the only DEO I know of selected for Infantry out of Vancouver. I don't think location matters all THAT much in terms of when you get the call (unless they are really backed up and haven't even looked at it yet, which is why it is always good to get an update).

Other then that, cross your fingers and keep moving like they will never call. Good luck.


----------



## sky777

I see- it looks like silence in DEO selection now.
Guys how yours CFRC ?Are there any activities?
Our Montreal CFRC  also keeps silence.
Waiting...


----------



## Ayrsayle

my update for today, important for all those applying as DEO Infantry

They are still accepting DEO canidates for Infantry - However, there are only 10 Infantry NCM positions remaining nationally at this point.


----------



## NBiederman

From what I understand DEO infantry is local selection though, so I suppose it depends on where you are. If there are positions open and candidate to fill those positions they would fill those positions for the upcoming BMOQ correct? Or is there a chance that candidates may attend a later BMOQ (if held past Sept 26).


----------



## Ayrsayle

Selections for Infantry are done locally, but the number of positions available are still determined nationally. To my understanding the only difference between Local selection and National selection is that one can be done in house, the other requires outside oversight and approval at some point.

The positions available are ALL national in terms of the numbers - the process for filling those positions is the difference.


----------



## NBiederman

Ah, I thought the numbers that were given to me were for the Hamilton area. I would have thought they would give a set amount of positions to each RC to fill. I suppose ensuring that a set amount of candidates comes from a specific area wouldn't make sense as you wouldn't obtain the best candidates for the position


----------



## estoguy

Hey guys and gals (? are there any?)... I put in my application on the second week of July at the Barrie CFRC - DEO Infantry.  Wrote CFAT on the 26th.  The captain said I did very well.  He was especially surprised at the math results, given I am a history/education major.  ;D

I also got my P# boosted from 3 to 5 and was told I could expect to be interviewed in 2-3 weeks.  He also highly recommended a lot of research into infantry, and trying to actually speak to someone in the trade.  The desk Sgt recommended calling CFB Petawawa and talking to someone in the BOR.  Anyone done this?  Anyone got the number?  When is a good time to call?  I want to be very well prepared for the interview.

I'd like to be really optimistic and hope that I can get into the September BMOQ... *Crossing my fingers*

Good luck everyone!


----------



## clarkyo

Hey Estoguy I am in the same boat as you.  I had my application in at the end of June but it took CFRC XXX over 2 weeks just to get it entered into the computer!  Luckily for me I have already completed the CFAT and had a medical completed last year (was merit listed for MARS but it was after they ran the final DEO NOAB).  I am also lucky that my brother is about to finish phase 4 of the infantry officer training.  Once you finish basic be prepared for the most demanding experience of your life!  I was told 2 weeks ago that I am being booked for my update interview/medical.  Hope everything moves along.   Best of luck to all candidates.


----------



## cnobbs84

I contacted my local CFRC in regard to Infantry Officer and Armored Officer options on my application. I was told on Friday that I should be expecting a phone call almost any time now. Hopefully they weren't blowing smoke up my bum.


----------



## reboog

So I just called the CFRC for an update on my application and the guy said that I should be "looking forward to a call next week" and that he "couldn't go into details but it looks good." 

Is there a purpose for being so vague? haha


----------



## AERO2012

reboog said:
			
		

> So I just called the CFRC for an update on my application and the guy said that I should be "looking forward to a call next week" and that he "couldn't go into details but it looks good."
> 
> Is there a purpose for being so vague? haha



Congratulations!


----------



## cnobbs84

reboog said:
			
		

> So I just called the CFRC for an update on my application and the guy said that I should be "looking forward to a call next week" and that he "couldn't go into details but it looks good."
> 
> Is there a purpose for being so vague? haha



I just did the same thing this afternoon. I was told on friday that I should expect a call within a few days, foolish me I never asked for what trade. So today when I made the call the Private told me that my file is with a selection officer and that usually means a very high chance of getting an offer. However he could not go into details because it was no listed on my file quite yet. The private explained to me that the Corporal that I spoke with last friday is a file clerk so he may have has access to something that the private did not.

Hope that helps a little bit.


----------



## astecki

reboog said:
			
		

> So I just called the CFRC for an update on my application and the guy said that I should be "looking forward to a call next week" and that he "couldn't go into details but it looks good."
> 
> Is there a purpose for being so vague? haha



I had the same sort of phone call about a week and a half before getting an official offer, and manged to speak to my file manager afterward.  He explained that when we spoke, I'd been selected but they still had to finalize a course date, and won't be specific until that was set in case the starting date was pushed back.


----------



## clarkyo

Meanwhile, my file has been sitting with the bookings clerk for roughly 2 weeks.  I had my application in at the end of June.  All that needs to be done is an update interview/medical.  I have already completed my CFAT and obtained an excellent score.  Looks like there will not be any more positions available by the time they get around to me.  This will be the second time this has happened.  I wonder if one can have their file moved from one recruiting center to another.  I live in a city and it is obvious that my RC does not have enough staff to handle the amount of applications they receive.


----------



## reboog

Thanks for the insight, guys. I'm pretty excited about this phone call next week. Fingers crossed


----------



## Danny_C

clarkyo said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, my file has been sitting with the bookings clerk for roughly 2 weeks.  I had my application in at the end of June.  All that needs to be done is an update interview/medical.  I have already completed my CFAT and obtained an excellent score.  Looks like there will not be any more positions available by the time they get around to me.  This will be the second time this has happened.  I wonder if one can have their file moved from one recruiting center to another.  I live in a city and it is obvious that my RC does not have enough staff to handle the amount of applications they receive.



I feel your pain. I'm going to be missing this year's cut as well. I originally applied in November of 2009 and have been chasing this ever since.  It's a good thing I applied to grad school in January as a backup and still working in my industry.

There is a way to transfer your file to a different recruiting centre. Go to the new recruiting centre and request to have it moved. It takes time though.


----------



## reboog

Update: I just got an early morning phone call from my file manager at CFRC Montreal informing me that I have been selected for my position! She also said that since I've moved back home to BC, I can have my file transferred to a nearby CRFC (New Westminster) and have my travel back to Montreal payed for by the army! 

Good luck to all others who are waiting on the Montreal office for their offers! This means they the gears are turning, boys.


----------



## Danny_C

Congratulations. 

Did they mention which trade you were selected for?


----------



## reboog

DanKnee said:
			
		

> Congratulations.
> 
> Did they mention which trade you were selected for?



Yes they did, Engineering Officer. BMOQ on Sept 26


----------



## cnobbs84

reboog said:
			
		

> Update: I just got an early morning phone call from my file manager at CFRC Montreal informing me that I have been selected for my position! She also said that since I've moved back home to BC, I can have my file transferred to a nearby CRFC (New Westminster) and have my travel back to Montreal payed for by the army!
> 
> Good luck to all others who are waiting on the Montreal office for their offers! This means they the gears are turning, boys.



Congrats! Lets hope your luck rubs off on the rest of us who are told "expect a phone call real soon" lol


----------



## Ayrsayle

From everything I have seen (myself and others), phone calls seem to happen on Fridays - if that is any consolation for anyone. No use waiting by the phone Mon-Thurs. Good luck everyone.


----------



## cnobbs84

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> From everything I have seen (myself and others), phone calls seem to happen on Fridays - if that is any consolation for anyone. No use waiting by the phone Mon-Thurs. Good luck everyone.



That is strange


----------



## Summers

I am also waiting for a call  from Fredericton center... I applied in December 2010 for nurse officer. I had a very good score on all my exams and my interview. I am waiting national selections for health services. My recruiter does not know when they will occur. I would love to be on the next BMOQ ...  I'm glad they begin calling ...


----------



## Ayrsayle

cnobbs84 said:
			
		

> That is strange



No idea why either, but it seems everyone gets their formal phone call on friday (even though some of us find out sooner by asking, etc).


----------



## estoguy

Interview should be soon... talked to the Barrie RC yesterday, they are just waiting for my criminal check to come back.

Hey Ayrsayle, did you get my PM?


----------



## clarkyo

My file has been with the bookings clerk for at least 2 weeks waiting for an interview date.  Best of luck to you estoguy.


----------



## estoguy

clarkyo said:
			
		

> My file has been with the bookings clerk for at least 2 weeks waiting for an interview date.  Best of luck to you estoguy.



When was the last time you followed up?  If its been a couple of weeks, give them a call. Sometimes the squeeky wheel gets the grease...


----------



## clarkyo

Oh I am well aware of that estoguy...I left a message with them yesterday but have yet to receive a call back.  I would have gone in for a visit today but one of my neighbours offered to take me out for a spin in a corvette convertible.  Hard to turn that down  8).


----------



## sky777

I am still waiting for selection. Last week I called to check dates of selection and I have got my Employee Number. It was diffrent from my file number .
My file number is like * K****** *( where *- digits) 
But my Employee Number is like* A******* ( where * - digits ). 
Who guys know about this more?


----------



## Summers

Oh my God,

I was tired of waiting THAT phone call... So I've call the RC and I just got my offer!!!!

He made me choose  the BMOQ of september or October... I've choose the October one,
so I'll be in better shape and more prepare!

So on October 24, I'll be a DEO , Nursing Officer ! Yay!


----------



## cnobbs84

Summers said:
			
		

> Oh my God,
> 
> I was tired of waiting THAT phone call... So I've call the RC and I just got my offer!!!!
> 
> He made me choose  the BMOQ of september or October... I've choose the October one,
> so I'll be in better shape and more prepare!
> 
> So on October 24, I'll be a DEO , Nursing Officer ! Yay!



Congrats! Hope I am as lucky as you in the next few days.


----------



## pedro22

Hey guys,

I received a phone call this afternoon from my CFRC and was offered an Armour Officer position! It is a really nice surprise since I called two weeks ago and was told it was closed...  I was actually waiting for a call for Infantry Officer or HCA Officer, my second and third choices...

Well, it just made my day!

I'll be at the BMOQ starting on October 24th!


----------



## cnobbs84

pedro22 said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> I received a phone call this afternoon from my CFRC and was offered an Armour Officer position! It is a really nice surprise since I called two weeks ago and was told it was closed...  I was actually waiting for a call for Infantry Officer or HCA Officer, my second and third choices...
> 
> Well, it just made my day!
> 
> I'll be at the BMOQ starting on October 24th!



Congrats! what CFRC are you with?


----------



## pedro22

cnobbs84 said:
			
		

> Congrats! what CFRC are you with?



Thanks! Montreal.


----------



## EIT

Hello all,

I've got a lot of great info from these forums in the past months while applying and being processed, but have not really had anything to post. I figured now that I have an offer I'd post the relevant info, just in case anyone out there is in a similar situation and is waiting and wondering.

I applied for aerospace engineer and construction engineer in early 2011 and received an offer for construction engineer this afternoon (Monday aug. 22), which I promptly accepted. Its my understanding that national selection occurred for both of these trades on Friday the 19th.

I'm super excited now that I've got the offer, I really wasn't sure which trade I would prefer, aerospace sounded like it would provide some really cool educational opportunities,  but I think constr eng probably is better suited to my personality. 

I was processed through CFRC Victoria, and will be starting BMOQ Sept. 26th. 

Can't wait guys/gals!


----------



## Danny_C

EIT said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I've got a lot of great info from these forums in the past months while applying and being processed, but have not really had anything to post. I figured now that I have an offer I'd post the relevant info, just in case anyone out there is in a similar situation and is waiting and wondering.
> 
> I applied for aerospace engineer and construction engineer in early 2011 and received an offer for construction engineer this afternoon (Monday aug. 22), which I promptly accepted. Its my understanding that national selection occurred for both of these trades on Friday the 19th.
> 
> I'm super excited now that I've got the offer, I really wasn't sure which trade I would prefer, aerospace sounded like it would provide some really cool educational opportunities,  but I think constr eng probably is better suited to my personality.
> 
> I was processed through CFRC Victoria, and will be starting BMOQ Sept. 26th.
> 
> Can't wait guys/gals!



Congratulations! I hope I can join you next year as a Construction Engineering brother. 

I wish you all the best.


----------



## AERO2012

EIT said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I've got a lot of great info from these forums in the past months while applying and being processed, but have not really had anything to post. I figured now that I have an offer I'd post the relevant info, just in case anyone out there is in a similar situation and is waiting and wondering.
> 
> I applied for aerospace engineer and construction engineer in early 2011 and received an offer for construction engineer this afternoon (Monday aug. 22), which I promptly accepted. Its my understanding that national selection occurred for both of these trades on Friday the 19th.
> 
> I'm super excited now that I've got the offer, I really wasn't sure which trade I would prefer, aerospace sounded like it would provide some really cool educational opportunities,  but I think constr eng probably is better suited to my personality.
> 
> I was processed through CFRC Victoria, and will be starting BMOQ Sept. 26th.
> 
> Can't wait guys/gals!



Congratulations!


----------



## clarkyo

I was just looking at the forces website and noticed that Infantry Officer was just removed from the list of trades that are accepting applications.  All I have to say is good job recruiting center!  My file has been sitting with your bookings clerk for about a month waiting for a call for my update interview.  Every time I call it’s the same old lip service of “It shouldn’t be long”   This is the second time this has happened.  The Canadian Forces recruiting system has to be the most inefficient/hopeless process that I have ever dealt with!  What a joke!  Better luck next year.


----------



## aka0516

Hey, just wondering if anyone from the Hamilton area has heard anything about DEO Infantry?  Or even anyone in Ontario?


----------



## Ayrsayle

Clarkyo - no longer accepting applications does not for certain mean they are not still processing applications in progress. Selections are local, so your local CFRC has little to say in the update which says the position is now full. Have you called them to confirm your application has been canceled?

The other possibility was your application was not deemed a high priority (for any number of reasons) - not least of which might be competitiveness (lower then average CFAT, medical or credit issues, who knows what else). I understand the frustration, but there is more going on then your particular application in the decision making process.

Aka - Knowing about other people in Ontario probably won't help you figure out the status of your application - Infantry Officers are selected locally. Good Luck! (Give your RC a call!)


----------



## clarkyo

Thank you for the replay Arysayle.  The last time I spoke to the recruiting center (2 weeks ago) I was told that it was going slow because they have a very high number of applicants and can only do 10 interviews a day.  Sounds to me that the recruiting center is not equipped to handle the workload they receive.  I feel that my file is very competitive and have been told this by a couple recruiters so hopefully that isn’t the reason for the delay.  I have already written the C FAT and passed with flying colours (only 4 wrong answers).  Sounds to me that I need to head to the recruiting center in person to hopefully find out what the problem is.  This has been a very frustrating process.  If I wasn’t so stubborn I would have thrown in the towel ages ago.


----------



## reboog

clarkyo said:
			
		

> Thank you for the replay Arysayle.  The last time I spoke to the recruiting center (2 weeks ago) I was told that it was going slow because they have a very high number of applicants and can only do 10 interviews a day.  Sounds to me that the recruiting center is not equipped to handle the workload they receive.  I feel that my file is very competitive and have been told this by a couple recruiters so hopefully that isn’t the reason for the delay.  I have already written the C FAT and passed with flying colours (only 4 wrong answers).  Sounds to me that I need to head to the recruiting center in person to hopefully find out what the problem is.  This has been a very frustrating process.  If I wasn’t so stubborn I would have thrown in the towel ages ago.



 When did you apply? Most of us who recieved offers so far had waited at least 4-5 months since our application dates. Be patient and you'll get your chance.


----------



## clarkyo

Well my application has only been in for a month and a half.  I spent over a year trying to become a MARS officer (was merit listed after all the selections had taken place).  That trade is now closed indefinitely.   Before that I spent a considerable amount of time trying to become an officer in one of the combat arms.  That never worked out due to being a V4 (had laser surgery) and a cashew allergy (had testing done to prove that it was not serious).  It took me about 6 months to clear that up. Once I was medically fit, I waited roughly a year for trades that did not open.  That is why I chose to go MARS.  

So as of now I have spent 3 long years trying to get in.  The last thing I want to happen is for this trade to close like my MARS application did.  This is what I want to do with my life and I know I will be a very successful officer so I am willing to wait for my chance whenever it happens.

I am probably being paranoid due to my string of bad luck...either way I will be visiting the recruiting center in the very near future to make sure everything is where it needs to be.


----------



## Rahul

> Well my application has only been in for a month and a half.  I spent over a year trying to become a MARS officer (was merit listed after all the selections had taken place).  That trade is now closed indefinitely.   Before that I spent a considerable amount of time trying to become an officer in one of the combat arms.  That never worked out due to being a V4 (had laser surgery) and a cashew allergy (had testing done to prove that it was not serious).  It took me about 6 months to clear that up. Once I was medically fit, I waited roughly a year for trades that did not open.  That is why I chose to go MARS.
> 
> So as of now I have spent 3 long years trying to get in.  The last thing I want to happen is for this trade to close like my MARS application did.  This is what I want to do with my life and I know I will be a very successful officer so I am willing to wait for my chance whenever it happens.
> 
> I am probably being paranoid due to my string of bad luck...either way I will be visiting the recruiting center in the very near future to make sure everything is where it needs to be.




That -is- bad luck. I too have been waiting for more than 2 years to get into the Infantry/Armoured officer position. In fact, I too had to go through the whole prove-that-the-allergy-isn't-serious process this year and it took around 2-3 months to clear it all up. By the time I was merit listed a month ago, the selection board had come and gone. I probably will also have to wait till year 3. 

Btw, make sure that you visit the recruiting centre and consult with an officer in charge [title?]. They take a look at your application and identify bottlenecks, if any. I had my file mis-categorized and they helped in reinstating it to the right "pile". 


I really do hope that you get in the trade you want this time..


----------



## clarkyo

Thank you for the support.


----------



## sky777

So,
I month left till next BMOQ September, 26.
Now I can say- I got my job offer too.


----------



## EIT

sky777 said:
			
		

> So,
> I month left till next BMOQ September, 26.
> Now I can say- I got my job offer too.



Congrats!

Which trade did you get?

See you there!


----------



## sky777

EIT said:
			
		

> Congrats!
> 
> Which trade did you get?
> 
> See you there!


Thanks,
Mine is EME


----------



## NursyNurse

sky777 said:
			
		

> So,
> I month left till next BMOQ September, 26.
> Now I can say- I got my job offer too.



Congrats sky777 - I know you were anxious to get a position.
I'm happy for you. Enjoy the ride !


----------



## AERO2012

To the best of my knowledge, today is the last day for Montrealers to leave the merit-list through national selections and get on the BMOQ train. 

That said, I was selected for Aerospace Engineer, and will be starting BMOQ in French on October 24th.

I am honored to be part of Canadian Air Force and the advanced aerospace engineering sector (CF-18, F-35,…).


----------



## sky777

AERO2012 said:
			
		

> To the best of my knowledge, today is the last day for Montrealers to leave the merit-list through national selections and get on the BMOQ train.
> 
> I was selected for Aerospace Engineer, and will be starting BMOQ in French on October 24th.
> 
> I am honored to be part of Canadian Air Force and the advanced aerospace engineering sector (CF-18, F-35,…).


Congratulations!!!!!
You see - everything was fine for you.


----------



## sky777

NursyNurse said:
			
		

> Congrats sky777 - I know you were anxious to get a position.
> I'm happy for you. Enjoy the ride !


Thanks.
Yea,because I applie 28 August 2009.
2 years of waiting is big deal .
But anycase I am happy and I want to pass through BMOQ and do everything fine.
Good luck to all for BMOQ!!!


----------



## estoguy

Was talking to the Barrie RC today about my file... they said that the MCC is reviewing it.  Does anyone have any idea how long the "review" takes?  Last time I spoke to them was about 2.5 weeks ago, and it was still in "review"

And the Sgt I spoke to said something about the CF50, if I heard him right. I neglected to ask what that meant.  Anyone know?

Good luck to those who have gotten their offers and attending BMOQ in the near future!


----------



## clarkyo

It's hard to tell how long anything in the military takes.  I got a call 2 weeks ago from them and 6 days later I was interviewing/update medical for Infantry Officer.  Hopefully you will be lucky too.


----------



## clarkyo

I was told that selections for Infantry Officer took place on Friday.  How long after these selections did you accepted folks wait before finding out you were in?


----------



## AERO2012

clarkyo said:
			
		

> I was told that selections for Infantry Officer took place on Friday.  How long after these selections did you accepted folks wait before finding out you were in?



48 hours!


----------



## NBiederman

clarkyo said:
			
		

> I was told that selections for Infantry Officer took place on Friday.  How long after these selections did you accepted folks wait before finding out you were in?


I recieved a position for Engineering Officer. Selection was done on Friday (along with Infantry Officer), and I recieved a call the same day.


----------



## estoguy

Things have been held up on some credit issues.    Just need to get my ducks in a row... might delay things for a bit, but since things are looking up money wise in the very near future, I think things will be OK.

Congrats to those of you selected!


----------



## clarkyo

I was merit listed on the 15th of this month (Infantry Officer).  Looks like I am probably out of luck until 2012 at the earliest :


----------



## Blake_331

Hi,

I am finishing my last year of University and have just sent off my application for the CF. I am really hoping I will get my wish to be an engineering officer, but we will see.
My question is regarding the commitment period, for some reason I was under the impression it was 5 years, but I recently read on the forces government page that officers commit to 9 year periods. This wouldn't be the end of the world, but 9 years is a long time, especially if I am stationed somewhere I dislike.
Also, I have gone through the medical and interview before for ROTP, I wasn't accepted, but that isn't important. I am assuming I will have to do those again, correct?
A less important question. I understand that I wouldn't be enrolled in basic until the fall, just because they prefer to train the ROTP cadets during the summer.

Blake


----------



## aesop081

Blake said:
			
		

> but 9 years is a long time, especially if I am stationed somewhere I dislike.



Note that you would not necessarily be posted in the same place for all 9 years. You could be moved multiple times in that period just as you might be in the same location, moving to different units. Those years also include trades training, which will go by fast and take some of that time.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Blake said:
			
		

> This wouldn't be the end of the world, but 9 years is a long time, especially if I am stationed somewhere I dislike.



If you focus on the job, the location becomes a minor factor. It's easy to choose something that's not important in the larger picture and turn it into the big reason why you hate your job. The truth is we have CF bases in a lot of places that aren't downtown Toronto (or wherever your preferred place to live may be), you can expect to live at some of them for part (or all) of your service.



			
				Blake said:
			
		

> Also, I have gone through the medical and interview before for ROTP, I wasn't accepted, but that isn't important. I am assuming I will have to do those again, correct?



Yes, you should expect that.



			
				Blake said:
			
		

> A less important question. I understand that I wouldn't be enrolled in basic until the fall, just because they prefer to train the ROTP cadets during the summer.



Was there a question?


----------



## Pusser

Sigh....  I wish recruiting centres would do a better job of explaining this.  There seems to be much confusion over this issue.

DEO officers normally enroll with a Variable Initial Engagement (VIE) of nine years.  The best way for the member to look at this is that it is nine years of employment if YOU want it (and you don't really screw up).  It does NOT mean you have to stay in the CF for nine years.  There is a difference between obligatory service and a VIE.  If you really want out of the CF, as a DEO, you can normally release after about three years.  You can cut yourself out of a number of benefits (e.g. release move, full severance pay, CFSA benefits, etc) by doing so, but you can still get out voluntarily before nine years.  To get out prior to completing your obligatory service, your reasons have to be compelling (or you have to do something to compel the CF to throw you out  ;D).


----------



## Blake_331

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Was there a question?



Sorry, I didn't complete my thought there. Yes, the question was supposed to be, should I expect to do basic in the fall or winter, and not in the summer when the ROTP cadets do theirs.


As much as downtown Toronto would be fantastic, I do not have unreal expectations about living in such places. The point about focusing on the job is one I hadn't thought of...
Thank you for the information regarding the commitment, and also the moving around. 

Blake


----------



## Zoomie

Expect Sept or January for basic start dates.


----------



## Blake_331

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Expect Sept or January for basic start dates.



Thank you.


----------



## SentryMAn

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Expect Sept or January for basic start dates.



Pray for September, much easier being in Saint Jean during the cool days of fall then the cold days of Winter.

Saint jean takes candidates weekly, so you could start at any point, Graduations are on Thursdays 15 weeks after entrance.

once you enter the green doors, you are there for 5 weeks minimum.  I had a father who had a baby on my Basic, was allowed a 20min phone call and that was it.

Military is a blast but there is lots of down time when you will hate your job.  Think of it as 90% non-fun crap work, and 10% un-holy dear god my adrenaline will surely kill a normal grown man I'm so happy this is my job.


----------



## Blake_331

A friend of mine was telling me about the 5 weeks of concrete walls... I think she said something about shack fever or something. I accept that I will hate a lot of it, there aren't many jobs out there that people won't hate. That said, 20mins after just have a child seems a little cruel, but I understand the principle of "no one is special".

I have always been hoping for September. I just currently have plans for the month of May, but I'm aware (even more so now with that story of the father) that the military could care less about my plans. Just the way she goes.


----------



## aesop081

Blake said:
			
		

> That said, 20mins after just have a child seems a little cruel,



20 minutes is double what i had overseas on my first tour. Just to put things into perspective for you.


----------



## PMedMoe

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> 20 minutes is double what i had overseas on my first tour. Just to put things into perspective for you.



Not to mention, I'm sure the member was well aware that his spouse was due when he accepted the call to go.  Career decisions don't always line up with life decisions.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Blake said:
			
		

> A friend of mine was telling me about the 5 weeks of concrete walls... I think she said something about shack fever or something. I accept that I will hate a lot of it, there aren't many jobs out there that people won't hate.



It's easy to focus on hating the small shit until that's all you're doing. Learn to see past the small stuff and not let it affect you,. Don't waste any time or energy on it.


----------



## SentryMAn

The first 5 weeks were the hardest of Basic, you get shat on a lot from staff and are limited to being inside the Mega unless you are accompanied by staff, never after hours.
Remember this golden rule about Basic.
There are no Right nor Wrong answers, it is about learning and adapting to different situations.  Learning how to be efficient, like being clean shaven each morning by 5:05am but only getting up at 5am.  

Learning what you are good at and what you are not, ie polishing boots versus ironing shirts and trading that skill for ones you are not efficient at.  

I look back at basic and see all the good times and fun it was, but there was a lot of stress and pain involved.

Fall is a very good time, Farnam is f-ing COLD in the winter, like -30c cold.  I did my final exercises in December and we all fought off frost bite on FOB security(standing around not moving much.)

Well thats it.


----------



## ChrisDennison

I graduated from high school last year and was hoping to attend Carleton University in Ottawa and get a BA in Political Science.

The CF website states that "you must have a degree in a suitable discipline" Would political science be a "suitable discipline"?
Would I have to be in university for 3 years (General BA) or 4 years (Honors) to be considered for DEO?
Lastly, what exactly are the standards to be accepted into DEO (Direct Entry Officer)? Medical standards? Other qualifications?

Any information will be great. 
Thanks


----------



## PMedMoe

ChrisDennison said:
			
		

> The CF website states that "you must have a degree in a suitable discipline" Would political science be a "suitable discipline"?



Depends on the trade.



			
				ChrisDennison said:
			
		

> Lastly, what exactly are the standards to be accepted into DEO (Direct Entry Officer)? Medical standards?



Enrollment Medical Standards


----------



## dimsum

I could very well be wrong (it's been a little while since I was in uni), but I didn't think universities in ON have 3-year General degrees anymore?  

To add to PMM's point on enrollment standards, "extra" standards will depend on the specific trade (e.g. aircrew testing for aircrew trades)  

Take a read through the (many) threads related to this.  You're going to a school for Poli Sci; that will involve a lot of reading and research.  Take this as a "pre-univ opportunity" to do some research on something you're actually interested in.

 :2c:


----------



## dangles

Dimsum said:
			
		

> I could very well be wrong (it's been a little while since I was in uni), but I didn't think universities in ON have 3-year General degrees anymore?
> 
> To add to PMM's point on enrollment standards, "extra" standards will depend on the specific trade (e.g. aircrew testing for aircrew trades)
> 
> Take a read through the (many) threads related to this.  You're going to a school for Poli Sci; that will involve a lot of reading and research.  Take this as a "pre-univ opportunity" to do some research on something you're actually interested in.
> 
> :2c:



Just to clarify, most Universities still offer the 3 year BA, however it is mostly for the Humanities and Social Science departments. The four year programs in Humanities and Social Sciences are almost always Honours programs  and are for people pursuing more than one major.

Your BA in Political Science would be good for the Combat Arms trades, however with just a 3 year degree you will be looking at stiff competition from those who did the extra year in an Honours program. My recommendation is to stick it out and go for a 4 year program, as this will make you a more competitive candidate. Furthermore, most Master degree programs require you to have a 4 year degree to apply to them, and those that say they accept 3 year degrees rarely ever actually do. Although you may not consider graduate school now, it could be something to think about later in your career.


----------



## TheSneak109

So I've been browsing these forums for the past few days as well as doing a bit of research, but I thought I'd make a post to try and get a better grasp of things. As well before I get started, this is not a "Should I join?" thread - I'm very capable of making that decision myself. But to do so, I'm looking for as much information as I can, hence why I am here.

I'm 20 years old and currently in my 3rd year of university in Alberta studying history. However, unless I decide on going back to school (for either teaching, law, or grad school) there really isn't that much in terms of a (promising) career that I find appealing. I feel like I lack a bit of motivation and after going through these forums and the CF website, I'm becoming more and more interested. Getting paid to work my ass off to get into good physical shape while at the same time greatly improving my leadership skills, challenging myself every day (both mentally and physically) and being a part of something bigger than myself? Sounds like a reality check I could use.

After taking a look around here, I'm still absolutely dead-set on finishing my degree before I do anything hasty. This is a given. However, I don't quite see the CF as a career I would have until I retire. I was thinking more along the lines of becoming full-time for the initial contract (3-9 years depending on the trade correct?) then seeing how it goes from there. Is this even possible or are you pretty much stuck for the long-haul?

I've also read that if you have a University degree, you can apply for a direct entry-officer position or something along those lines (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not sure why, but becoming a pilot or infantry officer (or just infantry) is becoming increasingly appealing to me. Not for the whole "romanticism" of it or "omgz liek i'll headshot noobz", but just to challenge myself and at least try something way out of my comfort zone.

I used to train in Tae Kwon-Do and after watching several episodes of Basic Up! and other training videos, I'm always reminded of my instructor - big fella' who loves to yell. I've been out of training for several years but I seriously miss that yelling and screaming at me to push myself, go harder and just do better. At everything.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, cheers!

-Steve


----------



## SentryMAn

TheSneak109 said:
			
		

> So I've been browsing these forums for the past few days as well as doing a bit of research, but I thought I'd make a post to try and get a better grasp of things. As well before I get started, this is not a "Should I join?" thread - I'm very capable of making that decision myself. But to do so, I'm looking for as much information as I can, hence why I am here.
> 
> I'm 20 years old and currently in my 3rd year of university in Alberta studying history. However, unless I decide on going back to school (for either teaching, law, or grad school) there really isn't that much in terms of a (promising) career that I find appealing. I feel like I lack a bit of motivation and after going through these forums and the CF website, I'm becoming more and more interested. Getting paid to work my *** off to get into good physical shape while at the same time greatly improving my leadership skills, challenging myself every day (both mentally and physically) and being a part of something bigger than myself? Sounds like a reality check I could use.
> 
> After taking a look around here, I'm still absolutely dead-set on finishing my degree before I do anything hasty. This is a given. However, I don't quite see the CF as a career I would have until I retire. I was thinking more along the lines of becoming full-time for the initial contract (3-9 years depending on the trade correct?) then seeing how it goes from there. Is this even possible or are you pretty much stuck for the long-haul?*How long you stay in is entirely up to you, even with a signed contract for 3-9+ years, Many people I know stayed in 2, 5, 10 or 15 years and even more were in 25+*
> 
> I've also read that if you have a University degree, you can apply for a direct entry-officer position or something along those lines (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not sure why, but becoming a pilot or infantry officer (or just infantry) is becoming increasingly appealing to me. Not for the whole "romanticism" of it or "omgz liek i'll headshot noobz", but just to challenge myself and at least try something way out of my comfort zone.
> *University Degree qualifies you for CERTAIN DEO positions, not all.  Pilot requires additional testing and at least perfect vision/hearing.  Search www.Forces.ca view the career videos and go from there*
> I used to train in Tae Kwon-Do and after watching several episodes of Basic Up! and other training videos, I'm always reminded of my instructor - big fella' who loves to yell. I've been out of training for several years but I seriously miss that yelling and screaming at me to push myself, go harder and just do better. At everything.
> *Less yelling on basic now then 15 years ago, still lots especially if you encounter a certain PO in the weapons section*
> Any help would be greatly appreciated, cheers!
> 
> -Steve



Not sure if these answers above in bold help or hinder your process.  I WISH I had joined right from high school looking back.  I'd be about 10 years from retirement rather then stuck in a dead end position with a horrible company.  Best of luck to you!


----------



## Melbatoast

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> Pilot requires additional testing and at least perfect vision



No, it does not require perfect vision.

But pilot has not been accepting DEO applicants for the past year or two.


----------



## Labtc

To put in my  :2c:. I also plan to apply as a DEO when I finish my degree in history. I'm at Memorial University of Newfoundland and we don't have 3 year programs, just 4 years and an honors program which runs concurrently with your fourth year if you wish to do it and have above a 3.0 GPA. I think this is just one of those situations in which different institutions have different programs, and whether they are equivalent or not in practice, they are viewed as equivalent. Your 3 year B.A. in Poli-Sci is the same as my 4 year B.A. in History, they are both Bachelors of Arts. As well if you choose to do your 4th year and your honors it would be the same as me doing an honors (which I am) along with my 4th year. we'd both have a B.A. of Arts with Honors.

So to sum that up, I wouldn't worry to much about how long it takes to do (it's taken me 5 years to do a 4 year program because of work and family commitments), just that you do it and in the end have that piece of paper that says, "Hey, I've got a B.A. and know how to do something!"


Again just my  :2c:.


----------



## clarkyo

If your marks are high enough, (and recruiting numbers are low) I feel that it wouldn't hurt to go for your honors.  You can always apply to the CF before you finish your studies anyway.

When I had my interview I was told that having an honors degree helped me because it put me ahead  of all those with a regular BSC with regards to education.  It may not have been the deciding factor to me getting accepted but you never know.

Also, having an honors degree will also aid you in the possibility of pursuing graduate studies later on in your career.  Food for thought folks.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Movig this on over to DEO questions thread - see ya' there!

*Milnet.ca Staff*


----------



## TheSneak109

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> Not sure if these answers above in bold help or hinder your process.  I WISH I had joined right from high school looking back.  I'd be about 10 years from retirement rather then stuck in a dead end position with a horrible company.  Best of luck to you!



Thank you, they were indeed helpful.

Also in my original post, I said I'm in my 3rd year of studies - it's a 4 year program (which will probably take me an additional semester at the very least).  But like I said, I'm going to finish the degree first and then start the recruiting phase.


----------



## jeffb

That sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure if it has changed but when I got in I applied several months before I was expecting to graduate. That way, the process started and moved along until I finished school.


----------



## TheSneak109

jeffb said:
			
		

> That sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure if it has changed but when I got in I applied several months before I was expecting to graduate. That way, the process started and moved along until I finished school.



I was actually thinking about that as well. I've read on here that for some it takes months or years for their application to go through and start BMQ, others say it's a breeze  :-\


----------



## Ayrsayle

You sound a lot like me, one year earlier. I debated going to grad school or possibly becoming a teacher but did not like the opportunities that seemed to be available. I applied early this year as a DEO and can honestly say I do not regret a moment of it. 

Finishing your degree is an excellent first step - there are limited opportunities available in the forces as compared to the past and finishing your degree leaves your options open. If your set on a military career, start your application process early - a few months before you graduate. I was through the system fairly quickly, but even then it was 5 months from application to Basic. Most of the people I am currently with took around 6-12 months, some even longer. It is not a quick process, but it does develop patience.

DEO applicants usually sign on for 9 years of service, though some seem to be as few as 7, or as high as 10 depending on their trade. I can only speak for the Combat Arms but all of us current Cadets had 9 year contracts. They will be investing lots of money into your training, therefore would like to see a return of a number of years after you are fully qualified to justify how much training you recieved. Training for myself (Infantry Officer) will be around 18ish months, assuming all the courses line up. Two years would not be unreasonable. While it is possible to leave before the end of your contract, it would likely have repercussions (issues getting hired in the public service sector, military, etc). Officers tend have longer contracts then NCM's, again due to the amount of training provided.

I would strongly recommend learning as much as you can about your desired trade (s) before putting in your application - Many people applied with their impressions from movies and books and were less then impressed when they learned what a ruck march was. If possible, sit down with a recruiter or someone from a local reserve unit and find out what military life actually looks like, or better yet consider joining the reserves to get a taste yourself before signing a large contract.

Feel free to toss messages my way if you had specific questions



			
				TheSneak109 said:
			
		

> So I've been browsing these forums for the past few days as well as doing a bit of research, but I thought I'd make a post to try and get a better grasp of things. As well before I get started, this is not a "Should I join?" thread - I'm very capable of making that decision myself. But to do so, I'm looking for as much information as I can, hence why I am here.
> 
> I'm 20 years old and currently in my 3rd year of university in Alberta studying history. However, unless I decide on going back to school (for either teaching, law, or grad school) there really isn't that much in terms of a (promising) career that I find appealing. I feel like I lack a bit of motivation and after going through these forums and the CF website, I'm becoming more and more interested. Getting paid to work my *** off to get into good physical shape while at the same time greatly improving my leadership skills, challenging myself every day (both mentally and physically) and being a part of something bigger than myself? Sounds like a reality check I could use.
> 
> After taking a look around here, I'm still absolutely dead-set on finishing my degree before I do anything hasty. This is a given. However, I don't quite see the CF as a career I would have until I retire. I was thinking more along the lines of becoming full-time for the initial contract (3-9 years depending on the trade correct?) then seeing how it goes from there. Is this even possible or are you pretty much stuck for the long-haul?
> 
> I've also read that if you have a University degree, you can apply for a direct entry-officer position or something along those lines (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not sure why, but becoming a pilot or infantry officer (or just infantry) is becoming increasingly appealing to me. Not for the whole "romanticism" of it or "omgz liek i'll headshot noobz", but just to challenge myself and at least try something way out of my comfort zone.
> 
> I used to train in Tae Kwon-Do and after watching several episodes of Basic Up! and other training videos, I'm always reminded of my instructor - big fella' who loves to yell. I've been out of training for several years but I seriously miss that yelling and screaming at me to push myself, go harder and just do better. At everything.
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated, cheers!
> 
> -Steve


----------



## Comrade

I was in a 4-year honours program, History, but the learning curve was flattening out in 3rd year and I was so sick of school, so I just finished a year early with a 3-year general BA. The recruiters saw that I met the minimum requirements for my occupation (DEO Infantry) and that was good enough. It wasn't until I had my interview with the captain, and he asked why I left school a year early. I told him that school's a waste of time, there's nothing more for me to learn, just longer papers and exams, and I'd rather join now rather than waiting another year. So if anyone asks, just tell them you didn't want to waste another year rotting in university when you can be applying yourself so much more effectively in the military, learning new skills, taking on new challenges, stepping outside your comfort zone etc.

P.S. if one day you want to go to grad school, just look international. A lot of countries only require a 3 year degree.


----------



## Pusser

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> While it is possible to leave before the end of your contract, it would likely have repercussions (issues getting hired in the public service sector, military, etc).



*NO, NO, NO!*  Am I clear enough on this folks?  As long as you complete your *obligatory* service (usually around three years for DEO), you will be fine.  There are no repercussions of the nature you are describing for simply not completing your initial engagement (the correct term - we don't have "contracts").  In other words, getting out of the CF after three years because you feel it isn't for you will not affect any future applications for the Public Service, re-enrolling in the CF later, etc.  However, if you are thrown out of the CF or whine your way out before completing any obligatory service, then there may be some repercussions, but not otherwise.

The only things you give up by not completing your initial engagement (usually about nine years for officers) are usually associated with relocation benefits, severance pay and how we treat your pension contributions (you never lose pension contributions, but how you get them back can vary).

On a different note, for those of you who are just starting out in university, have you considered ROTP vice DEO?  What is the appeal of paying for it yourself (i.e. no one will thank you for it)?  It would seem to me that graduating debt free, with up to four years pensionable service under belt and into a higher pay rate has a great deal of appeal over a lower salary and a student loan to pay back.


----------



## Comrade

Pusser said:
			
		

> On a different note, for those of you who are just starting out in university, have you considered ROTP vice DEO?  What is the appeal of paying for it yourself (i.e. no one will thank you for it)?  It would seem to me that graduating debt free, with up to four years pensionable service under belt and into a higher pay rate has a great deal of appeal over a lower salary and a student loan to pay back.



I saw a ROTP guy who decided in CAP that he wanted out of the CF. The instructors made his life a living hell for the summer, until they finally let him release. But they told us how stupid of a move it was, since the CF paid for his education. Now he owes A LOT of money back and a whole lot of other repercussions. Make sure you know what you're getting into.


----------



## Ayrsayle

Pusser - Then information I had received was in error,  that is what I was informed could happen when I signed my Paperwork back in Sept. Happy for the clarification though.

Seems to be the product of the system however - we new members are inundated with information on a system we have little experience with save for what is thrown at us (much of the time, given little time to digest ramifications of, etc). Has us running around like headless chickens sometimes trying to figure out what is true, and what is what "X" instructor believed to be true.


----------



## Pusser

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> Pusser - Then information I had received was in error,  that is what I was informed could happen when I signed my Paperwork back in Sept. Happy for the clarification though.
> 
> Seems to be the product of the system however - we new members are inundated with information on a system we have little experience with save for what is thrown at us (much of the time, given little time to digest ramifications of, etc). Has us running around like headless chickens sometimes trying to figure out what is true, and what is what "X" instructor believed to be true.



I understand full well the information overload that folks receive when they first enroll.  It takes time to sort through it all and figure out what is best.  Unfortunately, there is much misunderstanding (more so than misinformation) out there with respect to engagements in the CF.  The very fact that even folks in authority (e.g. recruiting centre staff) refer to them as "contracts" is telling.  They are not contracts in the legal sense (I'm not a lawyer, so I can't tell exactly why, but lawyers have told me that they're not, so I'm OK with that).  Nor are engagements in the CF indentured servitude.  The bottom line is that no one will be forced to stay in the CF for their entire engagement, unless there is a state of emergency declared (which hasn't happened since WWII) or there is obligatory service involved.


----------



## ringknocker82

D3 said:
			
		

> Commissions directly to LT and Capt depend on the trade and military experience.  As a DEO with no previous service you would only get commissioned to a rank other then 2Lt if your trade calls for it.  While most of those trades require advanced degrees, not necessarily, since I believe MPs get commissioned to Lt and require only a bachelor.  Having a PhD will not get you commissioned to anything other then 2Lt in the infantry for example.  However, having an advanced degree will get you in at a higher pay incentive level.



D3, I was medically released (4B) as an Lt.  I have been medically cleared and am now merit listed for MARS.  If I am offered a job, would I start back at A/SLt or be given the rank SLt? This really is not a big deal, but I'm just curious.


----------



## perspectiveofficer

Hi,

 I am a 4th year senior finishing up university with a degree in Economics. I really had no intentions of joining the military until about two years ago, when I felt a sense of duty and a sense of adventure to try something amazing during my youth. Regardless, I kind of messed around in my first and second years at university and so my GPA tanked. It was not really a matter of intelligence, but one of effort (or lack thereof), of which I focused on drinking and partying. I drifted aimlessly and tried my hand at a few majors before deciding on economics since it was one of the recommended degrees for an intelligence officer on the army website. So, I got my act together and really pulled my GPA up. I was at around 1.8 (low C level) in 2nd year, and I am expected to leave with a 2.9-3.2GPA (mid to high B) level. Would this come up on my application/ interview? I am proud that I am finishing my degree with a respectably GPA, but I am embarrassed at the mistakes I made during my younger years, and I know that I had the potential to leave with a lot higher of a GPA. Will this show a lack of discipline/ character and make me exempt from an officer position? Will grades even be looked at, or is the army more concerned with my degree? Thanks in advance.


----------



## PMedMoe

Your grades will be looked at, however, the fact that you did "get your act together" and finished your degree is probably what will really matter in the long run.


----------



## Delaney1986

I wouldn't plan on getting DEO for Intelligence. Not only are positions few and far between for civilians, they like their Intelligence people to have some knowledge of and experience in the military first. 
Unless of course you are a ninja who speaks 5 languages and has experience working for an intelligence agency....at least that's pretty much what the recruiter told me....I paraphrased a bit... ;D

Good luck with everything!


----------



## SentryMAn

While I was on Basic we had 2 LT recruits on platoon.
They were both trained nurses., as in holding RN certs.

I believe it happens when either you CFR from certain positions into Officer(which isn't DEO), or you come ready to work in your trade where the trade requires a specific certification(doctor, Lawyer, Nurse, etc).

I think going straight in as Int will be even more difficult now with the current "issues" the Forces are having around the INT branch(lol)

I am not confident in saying this is the case but this is what I have seen.


----------



## Pusser

In a nutshell and for the most part, advanced rank for DEOs is dependant upon their employability upon enrollment.  For example, a fully qualified, licenced nurse may be promoted to Lt immediately because he/she already has most of the skills required to  function at the higher rank (2Lt is basically a training rank) and the CF training required is minimal.  On the other hand, since the CF has to teach everything to an infantry officer, it makes no difference whether a candidate has a BA or a PhD, he/she will start at the same rank.

On another note:  *perspectiveofficer*, are you sure you don't mean *prospectiveofficer*?


----------



## Journeyman

Pusser said:
			
		

> *perspectiveofficer*, are you sure you don't mean *prospectiveofficer*?


_shhhhh_...he just finished telling us how he's got his act together and that he really should be an Intelligence officer.


----------



## Pusser

Journeyman said:
			
		

> _shhhhh_...he just finished telling us how he's got his act together and that he really should be an Intelligence officer.



But I'd like him to be an intelligent officer...


----------



## perspectiveofficer

Thanks for the responses; it was pretty late when I signed up and I only have one email. I knew I messed up a letter, but it was too late to make adjustments.


----------



## perspectiveofficer

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Your grades will be looked at, however, the fact that you did "get your act together" and finished your degree is probably what will really matter in the long run.



Thank you for the response. Do you know if there is a mean level of GPA for DEOs or, are grades merely secondary to volunteer experience/ leadership experience and how you conducted yourself during your studies? If this information is unavailable here, I can save it for my recruiter. Thanks again.


----------



## PMedMoe

There might be, but I have no idea.


----------



## ttlbmg

From my limited experience, when you fill out the application form for DEO, there is a section where you fill out the your educational background. A general graduating GPA question is asked. (Highest level of education, being secondary school, post secondary, post secondary with a B+ grade, masters, PhD) You will have to fill out graduating GPA only. After filling mine out, I asked about the PP assessment process, and was told that I scored higher in terms of PP "points" because I had a B+ or higher graduating GPA. While your transcripts are included in your application, the only spot on the application for GPA, when I filled out my application, was my graduating GPA. However, I do not know the extent to which a recruiter or interviewer would look at your overall GPA, from year one to graduation.


----------



## Drag

ringknocker82 said:
			
		

> D3, I was medically released (4B) as an Lt.  I have been medically cleared and am now merit listed for MARS.  If I am offered a job, would I start back at A/SLt or be given the rank SLt? This really is not a big deal, but I'm just curious.



It depends on the trade and how long you were out...


----------



## dstevens

Hey Everyone, 

I'm planning on DEO for (hopefully) next summer. Currently I'm entering my last year of University and as such I don't yet have my $30,000 piece of paper that states I have graduated university. Therefore, am I allowed to start the DEO application process (since I graduate in April 2013). I'm concerned that it takes quite the amount of time to prepare an application and I wish not to be hindered in anyway as I'm planning on entering in summer 2013 intake. 

As a side note, I'm aware that I am, in no way, guaranteed an offer much less a position, as numbers shift from year to year.

Thank you for your time and consideration in this matter, 

Dstevens


----------



## ttlbmg

That is a good question, I am sure that a quick call to the North Bay Recruitment Center would answer your question more thoroughly. It does include an area on the application form to write down a projected graduation from a course; that being said, I am not sure if they would accept your application at this point. Your other option would be to go down and ask a recruiter if you are near a recruitment center. Just remember that when you do choose to apply, you have all the required documents, as this will make the application process a little easier on you. (high school transcripts, college/university transcripts, your birth certificate!) Good luck, and (soon to be) congrats on your expensive piece of paper!


----------



## Bigm

You are allowed to apply for DEO during your last year of study at university.


----------



## therickiness

I am graduating next month but I did apply last year and got refused. There reason was that there weren't enough years left in my undergrad to give me a ROTP and I dont qualify for DEO since I didn't graduate. Essentially the last year undergrad is in the "sweet spot" where ROTP and DEO didnt fit. And then I applied in my last semester and with a letter from admissions stating my intend to graduate. Then they took my application for a trade that was open. Hope this helps.

Cheers,


----------



## Danny_C

I'm sorry to revive an old thread. Does anyone have any information on the next selection board for DEO Construction Engineering Officer? I was told I missed selections for Engineering Officer. 

I'm waiting for my medical to come back from Ottawa and I don't want to miss this board. It took me 3.5 years to get to this point and would hate to wait another year. Im hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. Thank you in advanced.


----------



## The_Falcon

DanKnee said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to revive an old thread. Does anyone have any information on the next selection board for DEO Construction Engineering Officer? I was told I missed selections for Engineering Officer.
> 
> I'm waiting for my medical to come back from Ottawa and I don't want to miss this board. It took me 3.5 years to get to this point and would hate to wait another year. Im hoping for the best but preparing for the worst. Thank you in advanced.



Call your CFRC, if you are still waiting for  the medical thumbs up then you can't be selected regardless of when the board sits.


----------



## Danny_C

Thank you for the reply. I'm aware of that and the person I spoke to at the recruiting centre was unaware of when the national selection board sits for that profession. I know it's out of my control now but I'm trying to get an idea of the deadline. 

Have a good weekend,

Danny


----------



## aesop081

DanKnee said:
			
		

> I'm trying to get an idea of the deadline.



The selection board sits, when the selection board sits.

If selected, the CF will tell you, when the CF wants to tell you.

Since you have not completed the entire application process, it is all moot to you.


----------



## armyforums25

Hi Guys,

Quick question; coming out of school with a couple of professional degrees (including a law degree), I would really like to serve, no more than 4 years, in the military. I do not want to be a legal officer and combat arms officer is my goal.
- Armour
- Infantry
- MARS

Anyways, after reviewing the content of the forum I have been led to believe that my shortest commitment would be 9 years long. Is this assumption correct?

I come from a military family and see serving my country as a character prerequisite before beginning my career. However 10 years is simply too long for me. Any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys.


----------



## PuckChaser

Why don't you join the reserves and serve while starting your career? You'll get the experience and leadership you want without the time commitment. Don't waste the RegF's time if you can't commit for 9 years, we're not in the business of padding people's resumes.


----------



## dimsum

Slight (maybe pedantic) point:  MARS is not a Combat Arms trade.  

Also, I totally agree with what PuckChaser suggested.


----------



## therickiness

9 years is not a contract. its just a term the army will guarantee you a job. i believe the minimum obligatory service time before eligible for voluntary release is calculated as: time training + timing training x 2. for instance if i trained for a year, i am expected to give 2 years of service for a total of 3 years in force. i am an armoured deo and this is best to my knowledge. DND website has a page on this.


----------



## therickiness

i c nothing wrong in recruiting the best and brightest the community has to offer and still respect pplz decision not to make the military their career.


----------



## PuckChaser

therickiness said:
			
		

> i c nothing wrong in recruiting the best and brightest the community has to offer and still respect pplz decision not to make the military their career.



Maybe before you offer your opinion on how we train and retain our officer corps, you actually spend some time in the CF and maybe, just maybe, learn to type using punctuation and grammar. MSN speak won't get you far on BMOQ.


----------



## jeffb

therickiness said:
			
		

> 9 years is not a contract. its just a term the army will guarantee you a job. i believe the minimum obligatory service time before eligible for voluntary release is calculated as: time training + timing training x 2. for instance if i trained for a year, i am expected to give 2 years of service for a total of 3 years in force. i am an armoured deo and this is best to my knowledge. DND website has a page on this.



The CF will not guarantee you a job. There are all kinds of people that get released as a result of training failures during training and more that get released for various administrative and disciplinary reasons afterwards. I would suggest that you stay in your lane on this one.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

armyforums25 said:
			
		

> Quick question; coming out of school with a couple of professional degrees (including a law degree), I would really like to serve, no more than 4 years, in the military. I do not want to be a legal officer and combat arms officer is my goal.
> 
> - Armour  DEO VIE 9
> - Infantry  DEO VIE 9
> - MARS  DEO VIE 8
> 
> Anyways, after reviewing the content of the forum I have been led to believe that my shortest commitment would be 9 years long. Is this assumption correct?



Numbers I've inidicated in yellow text above are taken from _ADM (HR-MIL) Instruction 05/05, Annex A, Appendix 1_ (updated 10 Mar 12).  

VIE = Variable Initial Engagement, the new initial engagement for members of the Reg Force.

DEO #s (for external/off the street entry plan) for the occupations you indicated from the Intake plan this year are:

Armour - 15
Infantry - 5
MARS - 42

* those are total #s for 12/13, I can't say how many are still unfilled.


----------



## George Wallace

WOW!   What a way to have loss one's credibility in one, two, posts.  I have seen Armour Troopers with a better command and respect for the English written language, than what you have just displayed.



			
				therickiness said:
			
		

> 9 years is not a contract. its just a term the army will guarantee you a job. i believe the minimum obligatory service time before eligible for voluntary release is calculated as: time training + timing training x 2. for instance if i trained for a year, i am expected to give 2 years of service for a total of 3 years in force. i am an armoured deo and this is best to my knowledge. DND website has a page on this.





			
				therickiness said:
			
		

> i c nothing wrong in recruiting the best and brightest the community has to offer and still respect pplz decision not to make the military their career.




Please be so kind as to go back and refresh your mind by READING our Army.ca Conduct Guidelines and then conduct yourself in a more professional manner.  I for one doubt I would like to have any documentation written by you in such a manner cross my path.   Please respect the Site Guidelines and use a more professional form of writing that will more accurately reflect your 'station'.



EDIT to add:  From our Recruiting Thread - The Importance of proper grammar on this forum AND in the CF.


----------



## therickiness

Such an avid expression of hierarchy and discipline on a "forum", which compels me to say this is an unfortunate understanding of the concept "internet discussion". Hopefully these bureaucratic censors are unique only to those old army guys and not everyone. I will try to follow grammatical guidelines but my ideas remain until otherwise suggested by my experience.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Whoops.  Mistakenly thought you were the OP.  My mistake, your fault!  :blotto:


----------



## Tollis

therickiness said:
			
		

> Such an avid expression of hierarchy and discipline on a "forum", which compels me to say this is an unfortunate understanding of the concept "internet discussion". Hopefully these bureaucratic censors are unique only to those old army guys and not everyone. I will try to follow grammatical guidelines but my ideas remain until otherwise suggested by my experience.



At least that post had better grammar even if it did lack respect.  You should remember that this forum is public and therefore is a representation of the Canadian Forces to the public.  As someone who hopes to someday be an officer in the CF you should take some pride in the way we display ourselves to the public you will come to learn we take that very seriously.  Also those "old army guys" will be the ones training you and the ones in command of you and any units you'll serve in so don't think for one minute that your going to get away from the so called "bureaucratic censorship"


----------



## brihard

therickiness said:
			
		

> Such an avid expression of hierarchy and discipline on a "forum", which compels me to say this is an unfortunate understanding of the concept "internet discussion". Hopefully these bureaucratic censors are unique only to those old army guys and not everyone. I will try to follow grammatical guidelines but my ideas remain until otherwise suggested by my experience.



Cry more. This being a community of professionals, we generally hate seeing something that appears as if written by a child. The internet is a means of communication, not an excuse to get bloody idle. It's not just 'old army guys'. Some of us young ones thing it's sloppy and stupid too. Nobody's asking for you to be the pinnacle of eloquence and grammar- just to avoid the internet stylings of fifteen year old girls on MSN. If that offends you somehow, too bad. Welcome to the grown up world you're trying to enter into.


----------



## therickiness

Ok, boss. Lesson learned.


----------



## curious george

therickiness said:
			
		

> Such an avid expression of hierarchy and discipline on a "forum", which compels me to say this is an unfortunate understanding of the concept "internet discussion". Hopefully these bureaucratic censors are unique only to those old army guys and not everyone. I will try to follow grammatical guidelines but my ideas remain until otherwise suggested by my experience.



If I may humbly add my two cents.  The best English is clear, uses simple language, has brevity, and humanity.  Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity.


----------



## Blackadder1916

therickiness said:
			
		

> . . . . . . my ideas remain until otherwise suggested by my experience.



_Knowledge n.   Awareness or familiarity gained by experience.  A person’s range of information.  A theoretical or practical understanding of a subject._

_Experience n.    Actual observation or practical acquaintance with facts or events.  Knowledge or skill arising from this._

You’re going to let your statements (and tone of posts) stand and fall on your experience and knowledge?  A bold stand for one without any experience or knowledge of the subject.  

Your use of the phrase “obligatory service” leads me to believe that you don’t know what you are talking about.  You’ve heard a few catchwords in your enrolment process and attempted to impress.  What may apply to you and your TOS may not necessarily apply to others.  You heard “apples” and started talking about “bananas”.  The OP was seeking clarification (or more likely reassurance) that by signing his terms of service he would not be obligated to X years in the military.  While initial terms of service (particularly for officers) may appear at face value to commit a person to nine or more years service, in practical terms it does not (or *may not* according to policies that are, of course, subject to change) .  While his initial TOS may be a VIE of 9 years, it is not “obligatory service”.  Obligatory service is a very specific term referring solely to periods of service that one “must” serve as payback for subsidized education or a few in-service training programs (e.g. pilot); most DEO officers do not incur obligatory service as a result of their occupational training.

Those with “knowledge” and “experience” (in other words like those old army guys you disrespected for having told you to stay in your lane) know that there isn’t one regulation, order, instruction or directive that lays everything out in simple terms understandable by a simpleton (otherwise you would have already known the true answer to the OP's question).  But anything enforceable in the CF (or any government organization) is written down.  Among the myriad directives applying to the OP’s question is CFAO 15-2 which deals with release.



> CFAO 15-2
> ANNEX A --SPECIFIC RELEASE POLICIES
> 
> SECTION 3 --VOLUNTARY
> 
> 
> RELEASE -ENROLMENT PRIOR TO 1 JAN 82
> 
> 38.  A member who enrolled, re-enrolled or transferred into the Regular
> Force prior to 1 Jan 82, except for a member undergoing recruit or basic
> military occupation training, who requests voluntary release must submit
> that request at least six months in advance of the preferred date of
> release or the commencement of terminal leave whichever is earlier.
> Subject to deferral for a military requirement, as specified in paragraph
> 44 of this annex, the request will normally be granted and the member
> released on the date requested.  Should military and personal requirements
> be compatible, the six-month period of notice may be reduced by the
> approving authority at NDHQ.
> 
> RELEASE -ENROLMENT ON OR AFTER 1 JAN 82
> 
> 39.  *A member, except those serving under ROTP, MOTP, DOTP, or DITP, who
> enrols, re-enrols or transfers into the Regular Force on or after 1 Jan 82,
> and requests voluntary release, will not normally have that request
> approved, except during a period of recruit training as specified in
> paragraph 36 of this annex, for a period of three years commencing from the
> date of enrolment unless compassionate circumstances exist.*  Subject to the
> requirement to complete the initial three year period of service, a member
> must submit that request at least six months in advance of the preferred
> date of release or the commencement of terminal leave whichever is earlier.
> *Subject to deferral for a military requirement, as prescribed in paragraph
> 44 of this annex, the request will normally be approved to be effective on
> the date requested.*  Should military and personal requirements be
> compatible, the six-month period of notice may be reduced by the approving
> authority at NDHQ.



Caveat:  My access to CFAOs is limited to a (perhaps) outdated disk.  Someone with access to the DIN could check whether this portion of CFAO 15-2 is still applicable.


What does this mean in practical terms?  While a prospective officer may sign TOS with a VIE of nine years, his contract* (_*Yes sunshine, it is a contract.  Look up the definition of contract - an agreement_) will not necessarily bind him to the CF without any recourse for earlier release.  The terms of that agreement is that in exchange for serving in the Canadian Forces, an individual will be paid, trained, fed, watered and otherwise governed in accordance with existing (and future) laws, regulations, orders, instructions, directives, policies and sometimes customs and traditions.  If the CF needs the individual or if the individual wants to stay for the full nine years (and he is deemed acceptable to stay for that period of time) then he can stay and on completion of that period of service he will receive some additional benefits for having so served.  According to present policy, if the individual wants to leave before completion of his VIE, he can request voluntary release IAW CFAO 15-2 and in most circumstances his request will be approved.


----------



## Danjanou

therickiness said:
			
		

> Such an avid expression of hierarchy and discipline on a "forum", which compels me to say this is an unfortunate understanding of the concept "internet discussion". Hopefully these bureaucratic censors are unique only to those old army guys and not everyone. I will try to follow grammatical guidelines but my ideas remain until otherwise suggested by my experience.



And that crack is now going to cost you "valuable" mil points young jedi.


----------



## therickiness

Ok, I am on my knees.


----------



## Danjanou

therickiness said:
			
		

> Ok, I am on my knees.



Keep it up and we'll go from pissed off "old army guy" to pissed off Directing Staff. consider this your one freebie.


----------



## PuckChaser

therickiness said:
			
		

> Ok, I am on my knees.



You have a great attitude that will carry you well through BMOQ and Phase training...  :facepalm:


----------



## Snakedoc

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> If the CF needs the individual or if the individual wants to stay for the full nine years (and he is deemed acceptable to stay for that period of time) then he can stay and on completion of that period of service he will receive some additional benefits for having so served.  According to present policy, if the individual wants to leave before completion of his VIE, he can request voluntary release IAW CFAO 15-2 and in most circumstances his request will be approved.



Not being in the reg force, generally what are some of the additional benefits to completing one's full TOS/VIE?  Are these mostly related to employer and employee pension contributions?


----------



## Danjanou

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You have a great attitude that will carry you well through BMOQ and Phase training...  :facepalm:



Ya think  8)



			
				therickiness said:
			
		

> dental officer is boring (no offense), I cant think anything short of combat arms as being the full army package.





			
				therickiness said:
			
		

> Agree not worth it. I took the test while in high school and passed for officers for this year. I was pretty stoned in high school. XD I am sure you're brighter than me in HS.


----------



## dapaterson

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Not being in the reg force, generally what are some of the additional benefits to completing one's full TOS/VIE?  Are these mostly related to employer and employee pension contributions?



One key benefit is an IPR move.  An individual who releases before completing their VIE will generally not receive a paid move to their intended place of release.


Pension contributions are unaffected.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Snakedoc said:
			
		

> Not being in the reg force, generally what are some of the additional benefits to completing one's full TOS/VIE?  Are these mostly related to employer and employee pension contributions?



As already noted a paid move to IPR remains the primary benefit.  At one time, (and probably still of benefit to the odd soul who enrolled prior to 1 June 2003 and is still on a fixed period of service) the other main financial benefit was the gratituity paid to officers (only officers, not NCMs) who completed a fixed period of service (in years past known variously as SSE, SE . . .and now VIE).   Do not confuse it with the Reserve Force Retirement Gratuity.  The calculation of the gratuity was a bit complicated, but in essence was one month pay (plus $9) for each year of service completed (so the base amount for completing a 12 year fixed period of service was a year's pay).  The complicated part are additional rules that determined what years (if any) were not counted and the amount that was abated.  The abatement was generally the amount of the return of CFSA pension contributions and interest (and severence pay?).    The gratuity could be a nice piece of change.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pub/cbi-dra/206-eng.asp


----------



## FeiL

I am currently taking college courses to receive a business diploma. I am aware that I need a degree to go through the DEO route to become an officer. My plan is to finish college and enroll in the CGA ( certified general accountant) program; and take correspondence courses to obtain a H.B.Com (Honours Bachelor of Commerce) degree from Laurentian University at the same time. A recruiter told me while I am going to school I can serve as an Officer cadet on the Reserve, after I graduate I will be transferred to the regular force.

Does this sound like an feasible plan? My question is whether a H.B.Com degree will meet the requirement.

Hope someone can give me some useful tips. 
Thanks


----------



## brihard

FeiL said:
			
		

> I am currently taking college courses to receive a business diploma. I am aware that I need a degree to go through the DEO route to become an officer. My plan is to finish college and enroll in the CGA ( certified general accountant) program; and take correspondence courses to obtain a H.B.Com (Honours Bachelor of Commerce) degree from Laurentian University at the same time. A recruiter told me while I am going to school I can serve as an Officer cadet on the Reserve, after I graduate I will be transferred to the regular force.
> 
> Does this sound like an feasible plan? My question is whether a H.B.Com degree will meet the requirement.
> 
> Hope someone can give me some useful tips.
> Thanks



There is no automatic transfer form the reserves to the regular force. You join one or the other. To move form the one to the other is a long, painful, labourious process. Do not EVER assume that because you get into one you can easily or automatically go to the other.

Someone more familiar than I will be along at some point to sort you out further.


----------



## dimsum

I think you're getting the entry plans (or the recruiter's intent) confused.  DEO is for applicants already possessing a degree to join the Reg Force directly.  In your case, what the recruiter may have been suggesting is joining as a Reserve Officer during the H. B. Comm portion of your schooling, although as Brihard said, transferring between the two (Reserve and Reg Force) is neither easy nor guaranteed.  

Judging from the info here, the best way is to just wait until you've finished the degree, then join as a DEO.  As for your question about whether a B.Comm is enough, it will depend on the trade you want but for most, yes.


----------



## FeiL

Thanks for the advices!
My bad I did not express it clearly. I meant that I could serve as a cadet while I am working on my degree.
I was just wonder whether an honours degree is equivalent to a regular degree, ??? because taking one or other would make significant changes in my future plans. I would like to make sure of it now. Health care Admin would be the trade that I will likely pick.


----------



## Blackadder1916

FeiL said:
			
		

> . . . . . A recruiter told me while I am going to school I can serve as an Officer cadet on the Reserve, after I graduate I will be transferred to the regular force.





			
				FeiL said:
			
		

> . . . . . Health care Admin would be the trade that I will likely pick.



While it is "possible" to serve in the reserves as an Officer Cadet while you are attending post-secondary education, it is not an absolute.  First you must find a reserve unit that will accept you; not all may be amenable to having you as an OCdt while in school.  Some units may prefer to select potential officers from already serving NCMs or DEOs who already meet the education requirements for the occupation.  In choosing a unit since your stated preference of trade is HCA, you would have to be in one of the 14 Canadian Forces Health Services (CFHS) Primary Reserve units (the locations can be found here).  As you intend to do your commerce degree at Laurentian, I make the assumption (perhaps in error) that you are located in the Sudbury area (or otherwise in Northern Ontario); are you able to commute to Thunder Bay, which is the location of the only reserve field ambulance in N.O.


----------



## jrst

FeiL said:
			
		

> I was just wonder whether an honours degree is equivalent to a regular degree, ???



I have an honours degree, it was treated just like any university degree on my application.  I believe the difference is that an honours degree is a 4 year program and a general degree is only 3 years, but that may have just been my university's way of labeling different degrees.


----------



## Vlad621

Does anybody know if it is possible to apply for DEO with a master's degree but no bachelor's? The recruiting website just says university degree which I always assumed meant a bachelor's degree but does it actually?


----------



## MusclesGlasses

If you have gone through a program that is designed to have you finish with a master's, it should be understood that the components of the bachelor's degree are mostly built into the program. With that being said, I can't imagine you would have any issue with an application for DEO.

Cheers


----------



## DAA

What they are looking for is academic "transcripts from your highest level of education".  If they need anything else, they will let you know...


----------



## shogun506

If your program was Canadian you're probably ok since the bachelor's degree requirements were probably done within the context of the degree but if it's from another country you might want to double check to make sure it's internationally recognized if you haven't done that already.


----------



## The_Falcon

If its an international degree, the CFRC will ask for a report from an agency like WES, to determine it's Canadian equivalent.


----------



## Vlad621

I don't have a bachelor's degree at all and it was not included as part of the master's program. I was allowed to enroll in a master's program because I had relevant work experience. Is not having the bachelors going to present a problem?


----------



## Gunshark

First time I hear of a Master's Degree without a Bachelor's. Pretty interesting. It looks like quite a unique situation that most people probably don't have a ready answer for, other than a speculation. Your very best bet in my opinion: phone a Canadian Forces Recruiting Centre and ask. Why not? All phone numbers on www.forces.ca/


----------



## DAA

Vlad621 said:
			
		

> I don't have a bachelor's degree at all and it was not included as part of the master's program. I was allowed to enroll in a master's program because I had relevant work experience. Is not having the bachelors going to present a problem?



My suggestion.....apply now and see what happens!  The application asks for the "highest level of education obtained".  While gaining a masters without a bachelors is possible in some areas, it is just something that is not often seen.


----------



## Kevin26

Hello everyone:

I am currently studying engineering at a civilian university. I will be entering the final year of my program beginning this spring. I once spoke to someone who is currently serving in the Navy about applying as a DEO and they mentioned that it might be possible to have the CAF reimburse me for the tuition expenses I incurred over the past few years. I am aware that there may exist an opportunity to apply now and to potentially have my remaining one year of tuition paid for, however I am more interested in applying once I graduate.

Could anyone confirm or deny that a complete tuition reimbursement is possible? Additionally, if such an option is available, is there a time limit in which I must submit an application either pre- or post-graduation?

Thank you.


----------



## George Wallace

Kevin26 said:
			
		

> Hello everyone:
> 
> I am currently studying engineering at a civilian university. I will be entering the final year of my program beginning this spring. I once spoke to someone who is currently serving in the Navy about applying as a DEO and they mentioned that it might be possible to have the CAF reimburse me for the tuition expenses I incurred over the past few years. I am aware that there may exist an opportunity to apply now and to potentially have my remaining one year of tuition paid for, however I am more interested in applying once I graduate.
> 
> Could anyone confirm or deny that a complete tuition reimbursement is possible? Additionally, if such an option is available, is there a time limit in which I must submit an application either pre- or post-graduation?
> 
> Thank you.



I am sure that you will soon find that your source was very ill-informed.


----------



## Kevin26

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I am sure that you will soon find that your source was very ill-informed.



It did sound a little too good to be true. Thank you very much!


----------



## lee465

Was told the same thing by an older recruiter. I asked another recruiter the next day on how I should go about getting it done and he laughed at me as if it was something I came up with :facepalm:


----------



## Drag

Kevin26 said:
			
		

> Hello everyone:
> 
> I am currently studying engineering at a civilian university. I will be entering the final year of my program beginning this spring. I once spoke to someone who is currently serving in the Navy about applying as a DEO and they mentioned that it might be possible to have the CAF reimburse me for the tuition expenses I incurred over the past few years. I am aware that there may exist an opportunity to apply now and to potentially have my remaining one year of tuition paid for, however I am more interested in applying once I graduate.
> 
> Could anyone confirm or deny that a complete tuition reimbursement is possible? Additionally, if such an option is available, is there a time limit in which I must submit an application either pre- or post-graduation?
> 
> Thank you.



Certain trades used to have a signing bonus, $40K for engineering trades for example.... That has been discontinued 5-6 years ago.


----------



## Cui

Do Medical and Legal Officers still receive signing bonuses?


----------



## The_Falcon

Cui said:
			
		

> Do Medical and Legal Officers still receive signing bonuses?



Every year, the list of occupations that are eligible for any kind of signing bonus (and what the criteria are to receive said bonus) are typically promulgated in a CANFORGEN.


----------



## SentryMAn

The latest I've heard of signing bonuses was on my course in 2009, we had 2 individuals that received money for joining, both were specific engineers and since that point I believe both have VR'd/failed their trade courses.


----------



## Zoomie

Many will be surprised to discover that this is not so much fiction as it would seem.  While this may not be current practice, it has been done before.  If you approach the CFRC at year 3 of university - they were known to have offered you an offer of employment and pick up your tuition bill for your last year.  The benefit being that the CF would have you in the system upon graduation and get you going down your career path.  Just because the latest batch of staff at your CFRC have never heard of such a thing - does not make it fiction.


----------



## George Wallace

Zoomie said:
			
		

> Many will be surprised to discover that this is not so much fiction as it would seem.  While this may not be current practice, it has been done before.  If you approach the CFRC at year 3 of university - they were known to have offered you an offer of employment and pick up your tuition bill for your last year.  The benefit being that the CF would have you in the system upon graduation and get you going down your career path.  Just because the latest batch of staff at your CFRC have never heard of such a thing - does not make it fiction.



Not the same as REIMBURSEMENT though, and I believe it was/is an option allowing for pers at Civvie U to finish their Degree under the ROTP program.  I have never heard of anyone going DEO and having their studies for a COMPLETED Degree reimbursed.  As was mentioned previously, there were times that certain 'red' Trades were offering Signing Bonuses to attract qualified candidates, but again, that was not a "reimbursement" of tuition.


----------



## DAA

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not the same as REIMBURSEMENT though, and I believe it was/is an option allowing for pers at Civvie U to finish their Degree under the ROTP program.  I have never heard of anyone going DEO and having their studies for a COMPLETED Degree reimbursed.  As was mentioned previously, there were times that certain 'red' Trades were offering Signing Bonuses to attract qualified candidates, but again, that was not a "reimbursement" of tuition.



Couldn't have said it any better!    "Reimbursement" is possible but as mentioned, you need to apply ROTP and such a scenario will generally NOT happen, unless your applying for an Officer Occupation which has had difficulty attracting applicants.  I saw a bunch of them awhile back but can't remember what occupation they were for.


----------



## Fros7bite

I am currently halfway through my last year at a Canadian university and would like to know when would be the best time to apply for direct entry to an officer program. I wish to finish my bachelors degree but am anxious to join the forces as soon as possible. 

What would be the best course of action in my position?

Thank you in advance for your time.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

No one here can answer that for you...........we don't "know" your situation.
If you spend time reading this site you will learn things that may help you though.
Bruce
army.ca staff


----------



## Fros7bite

Let me reword my question. Is there a better or worse time to send an application to join the forces? Do prospective officers tend to send out their applications ahead of time, or once they've finished their educational program?


----------



## PMedMoe

Might be some info here.  See reply #13.


----------



## Fros7bite

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Might be some info here.  See reply #13.


Thank you, this helps a lot! I will speak to my recruiter about this possibility and will probably send my application as soon as possible.

Cheers!


----------



## DAA

Fros7bite said:
			
		

> Let me reword my question. Is there a better or worse time to send an application to join the forces? Do prospective officers tend to send out their applications ahead of time, or once they've finished their educational program?



If you are still in school, I would suggest that you apply now.  There is no good time is now, the bad time is later.......

Direct Entry Officer (DEO)  -  As a minimum, applicants to the Regular Force must have an undergraduate degree in a suitable discipline. *A student currently in the final year of a degree program is also eligible to apply as a DEO. *


----------



## VigilamusProTe

Hello everyone!

This is my first time posting on the forum. After thinking about joining the Canadian Forces for a while, I have decided that a career in the Canadian Forces will be a great opportunity for me to apply what I learned during university.

I will be graduating from university with a double-major in Political Science and International Relations in April 2014.

MY QUESTION: What will determine my pay increment as a DEO?

For instance, I have attended university for 5 years because of my double major. I have done extensive part-time research work with my professors. Also (and please, I'm not trying to brag or pomp myself up), I have received several high distinctions and awards during my undergraduate studies. *Will this help me start at a higher pay increment?*

I ask this for two reasons:

First, I remember that in the past, there were individuals with three-year BAs who started at the basic pay increment.

Second, I do have a decent amount of student loans. It would certainly help to know what my pay increment would be (assuming that the CF hopefully accepts me) in order to plan my finances a little ahead.

Thank you very much!


----------



## PMedMoe

VigilamusProTe said:
			
		

> For instance, I have attended university for 5 years because of my double major. I have done extensive part-time research work with my professors. Also (and please, I'm not trying to brag or pomp myself up), I have received several high distinctions and awards during my undergraduate studies. *Will this help me start at a higher pay increment?*



No.


----------



## vivelespatates

No. But this will help you to improve faster in rank considering that it will increase your score for the Merit Listing.


----------



## Shamrock

Undergrads are not that special.


----------



## Ayrsayle

vivelespatates said:
			
		

> No. But this will help you to improve faster in rank considering that it will increase your score for the Merit Listing.



May want to check that out - while more education *may* help at the merit boards, I am not so sure a double major does.


----------



## PuckChaser

vivelespatates said:
			
		

> No. But this will help you to improve faster in rank considering that it will increase your score for the Merit Listing.



Your merit listing score for recruitment has no bearing on whether you get promoted or not. Please stay in your lane.


----------



## vivelespatates

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Your merit listing score for recruitment has no bearing on whether you get promoted or not. Please stay in your lane.



I'm not talking about the merit listing for recruitment. But for the merit listing when it's time to decide which captain move to major, for exemple.!


----------



## vivelespatates

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> May want to check that out - while more education *may* help at the merit boards, I am not so sure a double major does.



Must depends of the trade and scolarity.

Me, for exemple, it would help as my recruiter told me that the fact that I have one in Administration and an other one in Human ressources would help me for my trade, which is HCA.


----------



## MJP

vivelespatates said:
			
		

> Must depends of the trade and scolarity.
> 
> Me, for exemple, it would help as my recruiter told me that the fact that I have one in Administration and an other one in Human ressources would help me for my trade, which is HCA.



I'll wait to be proven wrong but I think the recruiter is wrong.  For meriting for folks that are in the system an undergrad is an undergrad regardless of major or double major.  Now if you had further education like a masters or a PhD then it can give you a few more points dependant on how the trades scrit is developed.

Honestly the way the scrits are right now I would worry less about my undergrad and ensure that I am am bilingual as possible.  It seems that it is worth more than further education for the Capt to Maj jump.


----------



## vivelespatates

MJP said:
			
		

> I'll wait to be proven wrong but I think the recruiter is wrong.



I'll call my recruiter this week to have more informations. Maybe I understood wrong.


----------



## DAA

VigilamusProTe said:
			
		

> Hello everyone!
> This is my first time posting on the forum. After thinking about joining the Canadian Forces for a while, I have decided that a career in the Canadian Forces will be a great opportunity for me to apply what I learned during university.
> I will be graduating from university with a double-major in Political Science and International Relations in April 2014.
> MY QUESTION: What will determine my pay increment as a DEO?
> For instance, I have attended university for 5 years because of my double major. I have done extensive part-time research work with my professors. Also (and please, I'm not trying to brag or pomp myself up), I have received several high distinctions and awards during my undergraduate studies. *Will this help me start at a higher pay increment?*
> I ask this for two reasons:
> First, I remember that in the past, there were individuals with three-year BAs who started at the basic pay increment.
> Second, I do have a decent amount of student loans. It would certainly help to know what my pay increment would be (assuming that the CF hopefully accepts me) in order to plan my finances a little ahead.
> Thank you very much!



The fact that your entry plan is DEO automatically determines your Pay Group, which will be 2Lt - Basic, Category D.  It's all the same.  The only thing that will increase your pay level is prior military service.

Also, your academic stream may not qualify you to apply for Log O nor possibly MPO but I would have to take a closer look just to be sure.

As previously mentioned an undergrad degree is an undergrad degree, there all treated relatively he same.  You would think that a post-grad degree would hold more weight but sometimes it doesn't.

Edit - so I rechecked today and your Undergrad Degree (BS) major Poli Sci/International Relations does not qualify you for either Log or MPO.  It does for Pilot but not the other two.


----------



## reboog

VigilamusProTe said:
			
		

> MY QUESTION: What will determine my pay increment as a DEO?
> 
> For instance, I have attended university for 5 years because of my double major. I have done extensive part-time research work with my professors. Also (and please, I'm not trying to brag or pomp myself up), I have received several high distinctions and awards during my undergraduate studies. *Will this help me start at a higher pay increment?*



If you have a university degree, you enter in as DEO and will get paid at the 2LT basic rate the moment your COS date happens. At least you don't get the OCdt rate.

Reference: It's what happened to me and the vast majority of people on my basic course.


----------



## VigilamusProTe

Cool, thanks for all your replies!

I'm patiently waiting for the next step in my application process. ;D


----------



## bouncer2004

Be advised that MPO has an extra step in selection, the MPOAC.

DEO pay rate depends what Ottawa offers you. Case in point: A few years ago two friends of mine, 1 a MSc in Physics and 1 BA double major French and Math.  The two were 7 months apart in joining as an ACSO.  The guy with the MSc was paid at 2Lt DEO Basic while the double major started at DEO IPC 3.  There are no redress available as Ottawa D MIL C are the ones who give you the initial offer.  Don't give your hopes up.


----------



## Pusser

bouncer2004 said:
			
		

> There are no redress available as Ottawa D MIL C are the ones who give you the initial offer.



I wouldn't say that.  D Mil C is not infallible and they have made mistakes in the past on this front.


----------



## DAA

Pusser said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say that.  D Mil C is not infallible and they have made mistakes in the past on this front.



Actually, D Mil C are not the ones who make the offer, unless it's a component transfer.  The offer comes from CFRG and the majority of the time, especially when it comes to DEO pay entitlements, the information is not entirely accurate.


----------



## Pusser

DAA said:
			
		

> Actually, D Mil C are not the ones who make the offer, unless it's a component transfer.  The offer comes from CFRG and the majority of the time, especially when it comes to DEO pay entitlements, the information is not entirely accurate.



True enough although they do so in consultation with D Mil C (as far as I know).  In other words, mutltiple opportunities to screw it up!   ;D


----------



## hyung7423

Hello my name is Andrew, and I am a prospective deo cadet. I have my enrolment ceremony in 5 days. During the job offer call, an account manager with the rank leading seaman called me "sir" after I accepted the job offer. Does this mean I am already a superior to NCM's? Am I a civilian until I take the oath? How will I be addressed by the NCM's during my training at CFLRS.? How should I address the NCM's? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## PuckChaser

He was being polite. You'll be taught how to address all ranks properly, its part of your recruit training. You do not need to show up at CFLRS with this knowledge. When in doubt, addressing an NCM by his/her rank is appropriate.


----------



## mariomike

hyung7423 said:
			
		

> How will I be addressed by the NCM's during my training at CFLRS.? How should I address the NCM's?



Proper protocol for Officer Cadets  
http://army.ca/forums/threads/29679.0/nowap.html

Proper way to address a WO, MWO, CWO or Officer  
http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/57227..0.html

Paying Compliments (Saluting, Verbal Address) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/812.0/nowap.html


----------



## Ayrsayle

I'll break it down -

As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you.  This is often misunderstood even among serving members.  You are a civilian up to the point you sign paperwork confirming your Terms Of Service (IE, when you agree to X many years of service) - then you are likely on Leave Without Pay until the start of your course in St. Jean.  Many will feel you don't deserve the "sir" until after you are finished all of your qualification training, but it varies.

Address NCMs by their rank - IE MCpl Jones, Warrant Adams, etc.  When in doubt it is never wrong to address someone by their rank, and they will correct you on their proper title (if appropriate).  Address all superior officers as "sir".  Your instructors will likely refer to you as "Mr", or other less impressive titles.  I strongly recommend not trying to insist they do anything else (but hey, you are welcome to give it a try!).

As a small (but in my opinion a very important) point - it's a bad habit to look at the NCM/Officer relationship as you being "superior" - Professionalism will usually have them calling you "sir", but that says very little about how much they are willing to support you and your goals.  Far better to look at it as you have a job to do, as does everyone else you work with - no one is particularly "better" then the other, only have specialized jobs and responsibilities.  Food for thought.


----------



## Ostrozac

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> I'll break it down -
> 
> As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you.



Aren't DEO enrolees commisioned as Second Lieutenants on enrolment? And attend BMOQ with that rank?


----------



## hyung7423

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> I'll break it down -
> 
> As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you.
> 
> As a small (but in my opinion a very important) point - it's a bad habit to look at the NCM/Officer relationship as you being "superior" - Professionalism will usually have them calling you "sir", but that says very little about how much they are willing to support you and your goals.  Far better to look at it as you have a job to do, as does everyone else you work with - no one is particularly "better" then the other, only have specialized jobs and responsibilities.  Food for thought.



I think you misunderstood my tone or what I have said. I ask if I was "a superior," not "superior to" an NCM. You sounded overly critical, so I wanted to explain myself a bit better to make sense to you. I do understand that NCM's could potentially have lots of experience, and I certainly respect them.


----------



## Ayrsayle

Ostrozac said:
			
		

> Aren't DEO enrolees commisioned as Second Lieutenants on enrolment? And attend BMOQ with that rank?



Ostrozac: Not unless something radical has changed in the last 5 years.  You will be paid as a 2Lt for the duration of BMOQ (and later, should you not pass your initial course), and this will retroactively be counted toward your "time in rank" assuming you become qualified BMOQ.  You'll most certainly be an OCdt until completion of BMOQ, upon which you will be given a commissioning scroll (commissioned) and assume the duties and responsibilities of a commissioned officer.  I am not as familiar with the PRes system, and have seen some differing practices from that side of the house.

Hyung7423: You are not "a superior" in any shape or form.  PuckChaser was correct in that the person addressing you as "sir" was simply being polite (in deference for what you will eventually become).  An OCdt does not have the formal authority (given by the queen, expressed in being commissioned) to command anyone.  It was not my intention to sound critical, but simply make you aware of the realities of being an officer (from my point of view).  If you already believe what I've said, carry on!  From my (albeit limited) experience, the officers that have the hardest time being successful in their jobs are the ones who feel themselves to be "superior" to those they lead.


----------



## hyung7423

Just one more question : as an EME DEO, I will be attending the Infantry school twice (one for common army phase and the other for professional training). Is the common army phase what I've read as IODP 1.1?


----------



## Ayrsayle

Common Army Phase is referred to by a number of names: CAP, Phase 2, etc.   IODP 1.1 is the Infantry Officer Development Programme 1.1 (Dismounted Platoon Commander) and would be considered the "professional development" period for Infantry officers (at least that is the common usage here on the site).


----------



## hyung7423

Thank you for the answers. I hope to become a great military engineer.


----------



## Ayrsayle

Good Luck!


----------



## Pusser

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> As an OCdt (which you will be until the completion of Basic) you have not received a commission - Ergo you hold no "superior" rank over even a Pte and everyone you meet in the military technically outranks you.  This is often misunderstood even among serving members....
> 
> Many will feel you don't deserve the "sir" until after you are finished all of your qualification training, but it varies.



Umm.  No.

The National Defence Act clearly places officer/naval cadets superior to all NCM ranks in the rank scale (although woe betide the young officer/naval cadet who tries to pull rank on the RSM or Coxswain  ;D).  Officer/naval cadets are still officers.  Strictly speaking, they are "subordinate officers" (as opposed to junior, senior or flag/general officers), but officers nonetheless.  As they are not commissioned (which does not mean they are "non-commisioned members" or "non-commisioned officers"), they are not normally saluted (although it's on wrong to salute them), but they are properly addressed as "Sir" or "Ma'am."


----------



## Ayrsayle

Couldn't find it in the NDA (save for it shall be enforced along established military tradition, etc) so I decided to start digging.  Found it in the QR&O's.

(In short, if you don't want to read, my statement above was completely wrong and here is why.  Though until the individual signs his VIE, he's technically still a civilian and "sir" is being polite)

QR&O's section 3.01 - RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK

(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides:

I

OFFICERS

    General
    Lieutenant-General
    Major-General
    Brigadier-General
    Colonel
    Lieutenant-Colonel
    Major
    Captain
    Lieutenant
    Second Lieutenant
    Officer Cadet

II

NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

    Chief Warrant Officer
    Master Warrant Officer
    Warrant Officer
    Sergeant
    Corporal
    Private

Which in turn in reinforced by:

3.09 - ORDER OF SENIORITY

(1) An officer takes seniority over all non-commissioned members.

and

3.20 - COMMAND GENERALLY

In cases not otherwise provided for in QR&O, command shall be exercised by:

    the senior officer present;
    in the absence of an officer, the senior non-commissioned member present; or
    any other officer or non-commissioned member, where specifically authorized by the Chief of the Defence Staff, an officer commanding a command or formation or a commanding officer.

Absolutely no mention of commissioning as the grounds for exercising authority/command.  I had been instructed in error previously and now have the correct answer.


----------



## Pusser

Ayrsayle said:
			
		

> Couldn't find it in the NDA



The table of ranks is in the Schedule (i.e. at the end)


----------



## hyung7423

*Queen's Regulations and Orders (QR&Os) **
Volume I - Chapter 3 Rank, Seniority, Command and Precedence
Section 1 – Rank and Seniority*
3.01 - RANKS AND DESIGNATIONS OF RANK
(1) The ranks of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act, which provides:

I

OFFICERS

General
Lieutenant-General
Major-General
Brigadier-General
Colonel
Lieutenant-Colonel
Major
Captain
Lieutenant
Second Lieutenant
Officer Cadet

II

NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS

Chief Warrant Officer
Master Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer
Sergeant
Corporal
Private

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member who, on or after the date this article comes into force (18 September 1986), holds a rank in the Canadian Forces set out in paragraph (1) and who, in accordance with orders and instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff wears a naval uniform, shall use and be referred to by the designation of rank set out in Column II of the Schedule to the National Defence Act having the same serial number as that of his rank in paragraph (1), and reference in this paragraph to the rank held by an officer or non-commissioned member includes any rank to which the member may be promoted, reduced or reverted from time to time.

(3) Except in accordance with paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member shall, after the coming into force of this article, use or be referred to by a designation of rank other than as set out in Column I of the Schedule to the National Defence Act.

(4) The ranks set out in paragraph (1) shall be used in all official communications within the Canadian Forces, except with respect to officers and non-commissioned members referred to in paragraph (2) for whom the rank designations set out in Column II of the Schedule to the National Defence Act shall be used

*National Defence Act (R.S.C., 1985, c.N-5)*

Powers of Command

Marginal note:Authority of officers and non-commissioned members

19. The authority and powers of command of officers and non-commissioned members shall be as prescribed in regulations. <-- schedule
R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 19;R.S., 1985, c. 31 (1st Supp.), s. 60.

Schedule (National Defence Act, R.S.C., 1985)
(Section 21)
LINK
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/N-5/page-149.html#h-228
SCHEDULE TABLE

Column IColumn IIColumn IIIColumn IVOFFICER1.GeneralAdmiralGeneralAir Chief Marshal2.Lieutenant-GeneralVice-AdmiralLieutenant-GeneralAir Marshal3.Major-GeneralRear-AdmiralMajor-GeneralAir Vice-Marshal4.Brigadier-GeneralCommodoreBrigadierAir Commodore5.ColonelCaptainColonelGroup Captain6.Lieutenent-ColonelCommanderLieutenant-ColonelWing Commander7.MajorLieutenant-CommanderMajorSquadron Leader8.CaptainLieutenantCaptainFlight Lieutenant9.LieutenantSub-Lieutenant Commissioned OfficerLieutenantFlying Officer10.Second LieutenantActing Sub-Lieutenant2nd LieutenantPilot Officer11.Officer CadetMidshipman [br]Naval CadetProvisional 2nd Lieutenant[br]Officer CadetOfficer CadetNon-commissioned Members12.Chief Warrant[br]OfficerChief Petty Officer, 1st ClassWarrant Officer[br]Class 1Warrant Officer,[br]Class 113.Master Warrant[br]OfficerChief Petty Officer, 2nd ClassWarrant Officer[br]Class 2Warrant Officer,[br]Class 214.Warrant OfficerPetty Officer,[br]1st ClassSquadron-Quarter-[br]master-Sergeant,[br][br]Battery-Quarter-[br]master-Sergeant,[br][br]Company-Quarter-[br]master-Sergeant,[br][br]Staff SergeantFlight Sergeant15.SergeantPetty Officer,[br]2nd ClassSergeantSergeant16.CorporalLeading SeamanCorporal[br]BombardierCorporal17.PrivateAble Seaman[br]Ordinary SeamanTrooper[br]Gunner Sapper[br]Signalman[br]Private[br]Guardsman[br]Fusilier[br]Rifleman[br]Craftsman


  

    

    

    

    

    

  


  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

    

  
I combined everything for you guys  And I am officially an officer cadet now. On leave until June 1st BMOQ.


----------



## mdgwilliams

Any plans to reinstate signing incentives for DEOs? In particular medical officers?


----------



## Loachman

A rewarding career in service to Her Royal Majesty is not incentive enough?


----------



## Thomdrils

Loachman said:
			
		

> A rewarding career in service to Her Royal Majesty is not incentive enough?



Lets be real here, we know this isn't the case for a lot of people.


----------



## Loachman

In return for loyal service, She pays generously, provides all required training to Her loyal servants at no cost to them, affords bounteous opportunity for travel, lavishes stylish clothing in ample quantities (subject to the whims of Her less-perfect agents, admittedly), and looks after one's medical and health needs.

Such generosity and benevolence is seldom extended to unskilled and unproven prospective employees by any other employer.

Yet some hold out their open hands and beg for more...?


----------



## PMedMoe

Loachman said:
			
		

> and looks after one's medical and health needs.



In Ontario (and some other provinces), you'll pay a small "fee" for that....


----------



## Pusser

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> In Ontario (and some other provinces), you'll pay a small "fee" for that....



Only if you have dependents as that is whom you are paying for.  CF members pay "nothing" for their medical care (nothing in the sense that there is a deduction from your pay - we "pay" in other ways).


----------



## PMedMoe

Pusser said:
			
		

> Only if you have dependents as that is whom you are paying for.  CF members pay "nothing" for their medical care (nothing in the sense that there is a deduction from your pay - we "pay" in other ways).



I never said it was deducted from the pay.  However, dependents or not, people residing in Ontario pay every year.


----------



## Pusser

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I never said it was deducted from the pay.  However, dependents or not, people residing in Ontario pay every year.



i see what you mean now.  I thought you were referring to something like BC Medical premiums that members with dependents pay there.  On the other hand, Ontario has instituted a blatant tax grab which CF members still have to pay, even though we get no benefit from it.  So, in a sense we're still not paying for our own medical care in Ontario as we are simply paying for a system we're not allowed to use.


----------



## mariomike

DAA said:
			
		

> Direct Entry Officer (DEO)  -  *A student currently in the final year of a degree program is also eligible to apply as a DEO. *



Asked and answered in Ask a CAF Recruiter. Adding for reference,

http://milnet.ca/forums/threads/117753/post-1437682/topicseen.html#new
"Once you begin your final year of your degree you can submit your application for the direct entry officer entry plan."


----------



## HG

Hi there, I'm currently a year away from completing a computer science degree and was interested in Joining the regular force. As far as the joining through DEO is anyone aware of which specialties or jobs I may be eligible for with a Computer Science degree?


----------



## PuckChaser

I believe it's one of the sought after degrees for Signal Officer. There's a list of them somewhere here on the site.


----------



## Andraste

HG said:
			
		

> Hi there, I'm currently a year away from completing a computer science degree and was interested in Joining the regular force. As far as the joining through DEO is anyone aware of which specialties or jobs I may be eligible for with a Computer Science degree?



There are a few where it is an ideal degree and others where it is acceptable.  I recommend you go to a recruiting center and see what your options are.

Cheers

Andraste


----------



## Magisterjuris

Good day. 

Thanks to some of the administrative staff from these forums, I was able to get back in touch directly with the local CFRC and the staff there. Thank you very much for your assistance. I sincerely appreciate it. 

I spoke with a Petty Officer who is looking over my file. He confirmed, that all the docs from my PLAR were in hand. He further noted that I was "merited" for the JAG Board sitting in February and that presently, there are 10 spaces open and I was ranked 28th with approximately 240 people behind me. This raised a couple of questions

_1. What is the Function of the February Board? I haven't had a medical or an interview. Is the JAG Board itself the interview, or is the board going to select individuals to take part in the interview/ medical? I have heard that the medical usually precedes the interview, in case there are medical disqualifiers that need to be checked before taking the time to sit down and discuss things.

2. What does the ranking have to do with the process? Does the Board perform whatever function it performs for ALL the applicants, or is there some kind of cut off? I.E. would my ranking be sufficient to actually make the Board- whatever its function happens to be?_

Thank you in advance for any help anyone is able to provide. As I've noted before this forum is an invaluable resource for aspiring CAF Members.


----------



## csers

I'd be interested in the response to this... but I would guess that if you haven't heard anything yet (I haven't either), then you may not be in for this round... 

 :christmas happy:


----------



## Magisterjuris

I had similar thoughts. I'll try and get some additional info from the CFRC. If I find anything out, I will post it.


----------



## Donomite25

I've been looking into joining the Forces through DEO plan. I currently have a year left on my Degree which is Bachelors in Business Admin - Accounting Track. My question is when should i begin my application process. Am I able to start the application before I have graduated and is starting to do so a year in advance beneficial?

Thanks!


----------



## da1root

Hello Donomite25,

Your question was answered earlier in this thread: *"A student currently in the final year of a degree program is also eligible to apply as a DEO."*

Applying earlier than later is always beneficial for the applicant.

Cheers,


----------



## da1root

Good Day,

Legal Officer applicants are treated slightly different than other applicants.  Normally the medical does come before the interview (done by CFRC) for most applicants, but your interview is being done by the Legal Branch and comes before the rest of the recruiting process that will be done by the CFRC.  Essentially the Legal Branch Merit Board determines who will continue in the process to possibly become a Legal Officer.

Your ranking in the Legal Branch interview/board absolutely determines where you will be for the rest of the process.  For example, if the Legal Branch board finds you unsuitable for employment than your application for the CAF as a Legal Officer will cease; you may still be able to enroll in the CAF just not as a Legal Officer.

I would advise that you don't put much weight on the number of people in front of you at the moment.  The Board won't stop at 10 people, they will rank beyond that as there are many factors that can cause someone's application to come to an end after the Legal Branch Board (e.g. medical, security, etc).

Cheers,


----------



## csers

Ah... thanks for the additional info  :christmas happy: Unlike the OP, I don't know if my file has even been reviewed yet so it's totally a waiting game for me  :cold:


----------



## TheGallant

I am also playing the waiting game. My understanding is that there will be another round of interviews in March.

Anecdotally, wait times vary widely for the application to interview process. I initially applied in January 2014, and interviewed within 6 months. 
This time around I applied in July 2015... so I am at 18 months and counting. I find it difficult to be patient, but it appears to be the experience across trades in the recruiting process.


----------



## csers

Do you mind sharing what happened the first time? I thought they'd keep your file open for 2 years even if you weren't successful...

I did my CFAT at the beginning of November but my paperwork wasn't all in until just before Christmas (had to wait for my certificate from the law society). I haven't done the medical or an interview yet, so I'm just waiting. 

I was in a while ago (as MARS) but I'm not sure how competitive I am now so I'm not holding my breath


----------



## TheGallant

I was unsuccessful at the interview stage in Ottawa. Subsequent to that, I was informed by the recruiting centre that I would be required to wait a year before re-applying, which I did in July 2015. Maybe I misunderstood, but as far as I know my file was closed or at least in abeyance for a year. 

I have just tried to stay in contact with someone in recruitment regularly. If I don't hear anything, I usually will send an email to see where things are every 4 weeks or so. Sometimes I am told to wait, but other times I get info on where things are or on what I should be doing. I mean, it's been 18 months so I don't know if it has been helpful for my process, but I prefer that to not doing or knowing anything.


----------



## csers

Ah... I have no idea what to expect from the interview, though I expect that it must be a little nerve-wrecking.  

I guess I'll bide my time and relax unless they actually contact me  [ 

(I really want to ask you everything about it but I don't want to be too pushy!  [:-[ [ )


----------



## csers

I asked about the status of my file. I was advised that there will be another JAG board late April/ early May (tbd) and that emails for those candidates invited to interview will go out after Easter. 

Based on another thread on this board, that should mean BMOQ no earlier than 28 August...


----------



## gronkpatriot

Hello all, I recently passed my medical and am now waiting to hear back in regard to my BMOQ date. My trades selected are aerospace control officer and intel. My question is this: I've heard from a few sources that the training for aerospace control officers is insanely hard. A few have said that the failure rate ranges from 70-90 percent. While I have every intention of giving this absolutely everything I have, I'm just curious if anyone can weigh in on there opinion of these failover rates. If anything it might help put my mind at ease 🙂. Thank you for any responses and any advice.


----------



## Loachman

A lot of occupations have high failure rates, and AEC is one of them. "Hard"? Some courses are, and there is a lot of work required to pass them, yes, but, aside from that, some people, no matter how intelligent, motivated, and talented, are simply not suited for those types of work.

Having your mind at ease is not a good thing now, on course, or on the job. Another term for that is "complacency".

And it's "Int" in Canada. "Intel" is American.


----------



## edlabonte

Passing an AEC course is not for the faint of heart.  You will spend many nights studying for exams or practicing in the simulator.  You need to focus maximum effort at all times while on course.  You must study and practice with your course mates.  You will either pass together or fail alone.  

Then when Friday night comes around, you will need to take some time to relax and unwind.  If you don't, you well stress yourself out and buckle under the heavy course load.

Good luck on your upcoming courses, See you in the Ops Room.


----------



## overwatch

I will be applying to Aerospace Control Officer occupation as a direct entry applicant and I was curious about a specific scenario regarding it. I will most likely have Aerospace Control Officer as my only listed occupation. I was wondering what would happen if I, by happenstance, fail my professional training? Will I be "forced" to take on another occupation or will I be let go?


----------



## PuckChaser

You've already asked this question and had it answered in another thread. If you want more detail, call the recruiting centre.


----------



## overwatch

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> You've already asked this question and had it answered in another thread. If you want more detail, call the recruiting centre.



My bad. Another user suggested this thread, I thought there was more details to the question that weren't addressed.


----------



## PuckChaser

Suggestion was an implication to read through the thread.  :nod:


----------



## Sorcerers

Heyo All... Is there anyone out there who has applied for DEO Legal in the past 12 months? And if yes, what stage of the process are you at?

I haven't heard anything since September 2016 (July 2016 CFAT) despite following up with my local CFRC by telephone and email.

Thanks!!


----------



## csers

Sorcerers said:
			
		

> Heyo All... Is there anyone out there who has applied for DEO Legal in the past 12 months? And if yes, what stage of the process are you at?
> 
> I haven't heard anything since September 2016 (July 2016 CFAT) despite following up with my local CFRC by telephone and email.
> 
> Thanks!!



Yup... glad I'm not the only one asking!  :nod:

I completed my application in November 2016, and have had radio silence pretty much ever since. The info that I do have is that as of June 2017, there were 13 positions available and 19 applicants for each one. Yet Legal Officer is listed as "Now hiring", and are still accepting applications. Several reserve units were hiring, but I'm not sure if they still are- I understand that offers have gone out for the units in Ottawa.  Rumor also has it that they are about to go on a major hiring spree, so I guess we'll see.


----------



## Cassis61

If DEO is chosen as the pathway into the CF, what happens if the education obtained prior to entry is missing elements of the degree offered at the RMC? For example, there are courses in the RMC's Military Psychology and Leadership degree that might not be available as part of a psychology degree at a civilian university such as PSE312 (Applied Military Psychology) or PSE401 (Military Professionalism and Ethics) Does one make those up at some point? Thanks. 
- dw


----------



## VanIslander

What makes you think PSE312 or any other RMC course is relevant, at all, to being an officer?


----------



## Cassis61

The fact that the RMC lists these courses as mandatory for the purposes of completing the Psych degree they offer, is what. Said degree being a prerequisite for the PSEL occupation.  

At least that's what I'm reading on the website.  If ive misunderstood then I'd be happy to be corrected.


----------



## PuckChaser

They're going to look at your degree and make sure its acceptable for the entry plan/trade you're applying to. Unless you bought your degree online from the US, you should be fine. All the extra courses offered at RMC are "perks" of attending there as a ROTP candidate. RMC is not where your degree is reviewed, the CAF Recruiting Group does it completely outside their control.


----------



## sidemount

Cassis61 said:
			
		

> The fact that the RMC lists these courses as mandatory for the purposes of completing the Psych degree they offer, is what. Said degree being a prerequisite for the PSEL occupation.
> 
> At least that's what I'm reading on the website.  If ive misunderstood then I'd be happy to be corrected.


Those are courses for degrees from RMC and RMC alone, if you hold a suitable degree (which you need anyway to apply as a deo) You will not need to take other courses from RMC. Dont worry about what is in an RMC degree, it doesnt matter to you nor your application.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## sidemount

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> They're going to look at your degree and make sure its acceptable for the entry plan/trade you're applying to. Unless you bought your degree online from the US, you should be fine. All the extra courses offered at RMC are "perks" of attending there as a ROTP candidate. RMC is not where your degree is reviewed, the CAF Recruiting Group does it completely outside their control.


Yeah what Puck said 

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## VanIslander

Cassis61 said:
			
		

> The fact that the RMC lists these courses as mandatory for the purposes of completing the Psych degree they offer, is what. Said degree being a prerequisite for the PSEL occupation.
> 
> At least that's what I'm reading on the website.  If ive misunderstood then I'd be happy to be corrected.



I believe that any suitable degree qualifies the applicant, not specifically a degree from RMC.

If my reply seems harsh, it is because you appear to be making a common mistake, which is believing that RMC and/or its graduates are special or better than others. 

RMC is just another university, except with a miserable student experience, poorer academics and stronger athletics.

You get paid, though. So that is a bonus.


----------



## Cassis61

Thanks gents. I thought that maybe was the case but good to know. 

Does or can the following ever occur: via ROTP (not DEO), you get a suitable bachelors for occupation X. You study,graduate, and begin your service in your chosen occupation. Down the road, a different occupation appeals to you that requires a different degree or an upgrade to a masters, e.g., a Logistics Officer wishes to become a Social Worker. If they approve the occupation change, will the CF pay for the education?


----------



## Cassis61

VanIslander. No offence taken. I get your point. For the record I made no such assumptions. Note that I speciified DEO meaning I wouldn't pass through RMC anyway. That was intentional for precisely the reasons you state - I don't believe the academic quality at RMC is at the same level as a UofT or UBC. That said, I wanted to make sure that all necessary components of the occupation's prerequisites would be covered.


----------



## VanIslander

Looks like I misinterpreted.

My mistake.


----------



## Navy_Pete

Cassis61 said:
			
		

> Thanks gents. I thought that maybe was the case but good to know.
> 
> Does or can the following ever occur: via ROTP (not DEO), you get a suitable bachelors for occupation X. You study,graduate, and begin your service in your chosen occupation. Down the road, a different occupation appeals to you that requires a different degree or an upgrade to a masters, e.g., a Logistics Officer wishes to become a Social Worker. If they approve the occupation change, will the CF pay for the education?



There are programs to switch to very certain trades; doctors, dentists, lawyers etc that you can apply for after you are fully qualified in your occupation. They are pretty competitive, and you usually have to have progressed somehow to getting that qualification.  It changes annually based on requirements and once in a while they talk about getting rid of certain trades as military occupations and having them become civilian positions.

Every year there is a list of post graduate opportunities available, and are generally open to specific trades, as you have a payback period in specific jobs afterwards.  Again, can be very competitive and the list is also based on requirements of the service. Or some years no one applies and some random person gets it that no one expects but doesn't get accepted by the university...


----------



## Cassis61

Thank you Navy_Pete.  

I recently had a discussion on this topic with a Recruiter from Calgary. The gist of what she said parallels what you are saying. She indicated that after doing one's bachelor's under ROTP, training and working in your selected occupation for 48 months, you could then look to do a VOT into a different profession subject to the CAF's approval. The 48 months is a general entry standard (along with an appropriate undergrad degree) for the SEELM program.  She also mentioned how competitive this can be. 

-dw


----------



## RocketScientist

This seems the most appropriate thread for my question, even though it's quite old:



			
				mattg said:
			
		

> From what I can tell from the CF recruiting site, some DEO candidates are commissioned as 2nd LT while others immediately as a full LT.



My understanding, based on information on CAF recruitment pages and this website, was that if and when I qualify as a DEO in the Reserves, my rank would immediately be 2Lt upon swearing in (I have a Masters in the preferred degree for my trade), and promoted to Lt after DP1. However, I was on a base recently, and was informed by a serving Captain that despite the official rules, I would actually be taken in as an Officer Cadet and be promoted to 2Lt _AFTER_ DP1. 

This affects pay, which affects my ability to proceed with my recruitment, since my employer will now have to compensate for a larger pay-gap.

I've sent an email out to my recruiter to confirm, but I'm hoping to get some POV on why this is the case.

*EDIT*

Just to add another question, what exactly is the length of the BMOQ Army/Land course (the one after BMQ, before trades, that must be done full-time)? I have been given numbers from 4 weeks to 3 months by recruiters and members on base.


----------



## RocketRichard

ACE_Engineer said:
			
		

> This seems the most appropriate thread for my question, even though it's quite old:
> 
> My understanding, based on information on CAF recruitment pages and this website, was that if and when I qualify as a DEO in the Reserves, my rank would immediately be 2Lt upon swearing in (I have a Masters in the preferred degree for my trade), and promoted to Lt after DP1. However, I was on a base recently, and was informed by a serving Captain that despite the official rules, I would actually be taken in as an Officer Cadet and be promoted to 2Lt _AFTER_ DP1.
> 
> This affects pay, which affects my ability to proceed with my recruitment, since my employer will now have to compensate for a larger pay-gap.
> 
> I've sent an email out to my recruiter to confirm, but I'm hoping to get some POV on why this is the case.
> 
> *EDIT*
> 
> Just to add another question, what exactly is the length of the BMOQ Army/Land course (the one after BMQ, before trades, that must be done full-time)? I have been given numbers from 4 weeks to 3 months by recruiters and members on base.



There are a few guidlines regarding promotions in the PRes. Best check with the unit you are applying to.  BMOQA is 11 weeks long.


----------



## CountDC

Common issue of incorrect information passed.

All officers are enrolled as OCdt.  As a DEO you may be promoted after completing military training with an effective date of your enrolment (and yes back pay will be issued).  Note that MAY does not mean WILL even though most times it does happen.


----------



## dapaterson

Commissioning is always as SLt/2Lt; in certain instances, it is followed by simultaneous promotion to another rank.  But commissioning scrolls are always to the rank of SLt/2Lt.


----------



## RocketScientist

From what I read above and the info I've gathered, there is no standard procedure. Or at least, adherence to standard procedure.


----------



## RocketScientist

I got confirmation from a senior recruiter: Enrollment is as OCdt, with immediate promotion to 2Lt after completion of BMQ, before BMOQ-A


----------



## OceanBonfire

As someone who recently graduated from BMOQ, I'm quoting the correct answer:



			
				CountDC said:
			
		

> Common issue of incorrect information passed.
> 
> All officers are enrolled as OCdt.  As a DEO you may be promoted after completing military training with an effective date of your enrolment (and yes back pay will be issued).  Note that MAY does not mean WILL even though most times it does happen.


----------



## RocketScientist

Thanks for that clarification. I've sent you a PM with a question regarding your recent BMOQ.


----------



## Lefthandit

Hey guys so I’m currently waiting to hear back regarding the next steps following my CFAT which went well, my main choice was ACSO. At the center the guy told me the contract length was 6 years; if it comes to the point of offering me a contract, would the length of the contract be negotiable in either direction? Applying DEO.


----------



## da1root

CountDC said:
			
		

> Common issue of incorrect information passed.
> 
> All officers are enrolled as OCdt.  As a DEO you may be promoted after completing military training with an effective date of your enrolment (and yes back pay will be issued).  Note that MAY does not mean WILL even though most times it does happen.



Yes all officers are enrolled as OCdt; however other than ROTP they all receive pay as 2Lt or higher while on BMOQ.  Only ROTP receive OCdt pay while undergoing training.

So to clarify.

Rank on Shoulder
While on BMOQ: OCdt
Upon completion of BMOQ: 2Lt/Lt/Capt (depending on occupation)

Pay
While on BMOQ: 2Lt/Lt/CApt (depending on occupation)


----------



## da1root

The contract length (Terms of Service [TOS]) is not negotiable.  It is a predetermined amount of time that the CAF is promising to employ you.
The only way you have an obligatory service is if the CAF pays for education; at the end of your TOS if you perform well you will be offered another contract.  If you do not perform well you will not be offered a further contract.  The CAF isn't for everyone and as long as you do not incur obligatory service you can release prior to your TOS (depending on your reason for release and how far along in your career it can take upwards of 30 days to be released).


----------



## TBrooks

It looks like DEO has increased for next year. I'm guessing they either have or are expecting more DEO applicants or want more DEOs


----------



## Deleted member 141556

Hello all,

As the title says, I'm looking to join up, but my wife has a bunch of questions before she'll agree to me applying. I realise I maybe could have used the search function to see if these questions have been asked, but there were so many threads, and I don't have time right now to scroll through everything, so I thought I'd just ask a bunch of questions in one thread, and hopefully a helpful fellow (or gal) or two can answer them for me. So here goes:

1. I have a degree, so I'm looking to apply to be an officer. Once I get done with BMOQ and trade school and get to my first posting, I'd need to be able to get back and forth to work every day. Do Army bases have transportation systems in place like civilian centres do, or would I need to have a car?

2. The recruiter I spoke to today gave me a breakdown of what my pay and deductions would be. It lists $563.39 for rations and $122.17 for quarters. Would those deductions go up at my first duty station? Would they go up as I rise in rank? Or would they stay more or less the same throughout my career?

3. For personnel living on base, what's included in the cost for quarters? I'm looking specifically for things like Internet, utilities, furnishings, etc.

4. What are the types of quarters available for unaccompanied officers on base?

5. What, if any, death benefits are available for spouses?

6. Say I love it and stay in long enough to get my pension. If I die before my wife, would my pension transfer to her upon my death?

I apologise if these questions have been asked and answered in other threads, or if I could find them through a Google search potentially. I just don't have the time right now to look, as I have a lot of work to do, but I would like to get these questions answered sooner rather than later, as I'm hoping to apply in the next two weeks.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## mariomike

CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> 5. What, if any, death benefits are available for spouses?
> 
> 6. Say I love it and stay in long enough to get my pension. If I die before my wife, would my pension transfer to her upon my death?





> Learn about the types of survivor benefits available to eligible survivors and children of Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) Pension Plan members and pensioners.
> https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/fac-caf/srvv/srvv-dev-bec-eng.html



According to your profile, you are 35. You have not yet applied.

So, you may find this discussion of interest,

CRA and Full Pension When you Join at Age 35  
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/120687.0

Original Post


			
				Vell said:
			
		

> If I understand correctly, CRA is at age 60 and full pension benefits require at least 25 years of service. If you join at age 35 (join a few months after you turn 35), is it still possible to get full pension?


----------



## Loachman

Welcome to Army.ca, CanadianYankee



			
				CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> I realise I maybe could have used the search function to see if these questions have been asked, but there were so many threads, and I don't have time right now to scroll through everything



That, right there, may be the reason why nobody besides mariomike has answered.

We are a helpful bunch here, but we expect people to do their own research as well.

If _*you*_ don't have the time, why would you expect anybody else to expend their valuable time to do what you are unwilling to do for yourself?



			
				CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> 1. I have a degree, so I'm looking to apply to be an officer.



Do you want to be an Officer just because you have a degree, or because you want to be an Officer? There are more than a few Non-Commissioned Members (NCMs) with degrees as well. Pick something that you really want to do.



			
				CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> Once I get done with BMOQ and trade school and get to my first posting, I'd need to be able to get back and forth to work every day. Do Army bases have transportation systems in place like civilian centres do, or would I need to have a car?



Some may, but rudimentary at best. Many/most do not. Many bases are quite spread out, and not necessarily close to facilities that you likely take for granted - like shopping, etcetera. Lack of a car generally sucks, even for brief periods.



			
				CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> 2. The recruiter I spoke to today gave me a breakdown of what my pay and deductions would be. It lists $563.39 for rations and $122.17 for quarters. Would those deductions go up at my first duty station? Would they go up as I rise in rank? Or would they stay more or less the same throughout my career?



Unless your wife does not "agree to you applying" and you decide to dump her in exchange for a life of carefree adventure in exotic foreign lands/frozen northern wastes/snazzy cubicle in a headquarters, once you complete training and arrive at your first posting, you might like to live together. In that case, you would no longer be living in single quarters and paying R&Q. You would have the option of living in PMQs (housing on base) if available, or renting or buying off-base and living like any other semi-normal person/couple/family.

Rents and prices vary with location. An additional allowance may be available in more expensive locations.



			
				CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> 3. For personnel living on base, what's included in the cost for quarters? I'm looking specifically for things like Internet, utilities, furnishings, etc.



Single quarters have basic furniture and utilities. Internet may or may not be available, and would likely be at your own expense. Quality of single quarters varies by location. PMQs are unfurnished. Rent is at the local market rate, and all utilities etcetera are at your own expense.



			
				CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> 6. Say I love it and stay in long enough to get my pension. If I die before my wife, would my pension transfer to her upon my death?



Yes, if you name her as your beneficiary.

Although, if you intend to live in single quarters without her, she may not stick around long enough...



			
				CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> I'm hoping to apply in the next two weeks.



Why the rush? You don't seem to know much about what you plan to get into. Have you even chosen an occupation yet? It's a big decision. Make it a good one. Do some decent research here before you leap in blind and set yourself up for failure.


----------



## Deleted member 141556

Loachman said:
			
		

> Welcome to Army.ca, CanadianYankee
> 
> That, right there, may be the reason why nobody besides mariomike has answered.
> 
> We are a helpful bunch here, but we expect people to do their own research as well.
> 
> If _*you*_ don't have the time, why would you expect anybody else to expend their valuable time to do what you are unwilling to do for yourself?
> 
> Do you want to be an Officer just because you have a degree, or because you want to be an Officer? There are more than a few Non-Commissioned Members (NCMs) with degrees as well. Pick something that you really want to do.
> 
> Some may, but rudimentary at best. Many/most do not. Many bases are quite spread out, and not necessarily close to facilities that you likely take for granted - like shopping, etcetera. Lack of a car generally sucks, even for brief periods.
> 
> Unless your wife does not "agree to you applying" and you decide to dump her in exchange for a life of carefree adventure in exotic foreign lands/frozen northern wastes/snazzy cubicle in a headquarters, once you complete training and arrive at your first posting, you might like to live together. In that case, you would no longer be living in single quarters and paying R&Q. You would have the option of living in PMQs (housing on base) if available, or renting or buying off-base and living like any other semi-normal person/couple/family.
> 
> Rents and prices vary with location. An additional allowance may be available in more expensive locations.
> 
> Single quarters have basic furniture and utilities. Internet may or may not be available, and would likely be at your own expense. Quality of single quarters varies by location. PMQs are unfurnished. Rent is at the local market rate, and all utilities etcetera are at your own expense.
> 
> Yes, if you name her as your beneficiary.
> 
> Although, if you intend to live in single quarters without her, she may not stick around long enough...
> 
> Why the rush? You don't seem to know much about what you plan to get into. Have you even chosen an occupation yet? It's a big decision. Make it a good one. Do some decent research here before you leap in blind and set yourself up for failure.



I don't know how to quote snapshots of your post, so I will just try to address your points in order.

First, thank you for the welcome.

Second, I didn't have time at the moment, as I had a lot of work on my plate that needed to get done. I have done some searching before my post as well as after, but not being familiar with all the acronyms and terms has hampered me; I'm coming from the U.S. military, which uses different terms and acronyms. I have done lots of research on this site as well as Google, but my searches have not been fruitful, hence why I asked.

I have always wanted to be an officer, ever since I was a little kid. My first "encounter" with the military was watching Top Gun as a child, and I have always wanted to learn to fly. Unfortunately, my vision and math skills aren't good enough to be a pilot, so I have to pick something else. I have already taken the aptitude test (for the reserves, before tracking back to Reg Force) and been told I qualified for infantry, armour, and logistics. It's a toss-up for me between infantry and armour.

I figured I would need a car on base, but my wife insisted that I ask about needing a vehicle.

Thank you for the rest of your information. I find it extremely helpful.


----------



## mariomike

CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> , but not being familiar with all the acronyms and terms has hampered me;



Canadian Military Acronyms
https://army.ca/wiki/index.php?title=Canadian_Military_Acronyms


----------



## AbdullahD

Regarding acronyms, hang around here long enough.. you will get a good grasp on them 

I am not military, never served, might not ever serve.. but just hanging around here I know a fair bit of the jargon, suprisingly.

Comes with time.
Abdullah


----------



## OceanBonfire

CanadianYankee said:
			
		

> I don't know how to quote snapshots of your post, so I will just try to address your points in order.
> 
> First, thank you for the welcome.
> 
> Second, I didn't have time at the moment, as I had a lot of work on my plate that needed to get done. I have done some searching before my post as well as after, but not being familiar with all the acronyms and terms has hampered me; I'm coming from the U.S. military, which uses different terms and acronyms. I have done lots of research on this site as well as Google, but my searches have not been fruitful, hence why I asked.
> 
> I have always wanted to be an officer, ever since I was a little kid. My first "encounter" with the military was watching Top Gun as a child, and I have always wanted to learn to fly. Unfortunately, my vision and math skills aren't good enough to be a pilot, so I have to pick something else. I have already taken the aptitude test (for the reserves, before tracking back to Reg Force) and been told I qualified for infantry, armour, and logistics. It's a toss-up for me between infantry and armour.
> 
> I figured I would need a car on base, but my wife insisted that I ask about needing a vehicle.
> 
> Thank you for the rest of your information. I find it extremely helpful.



If you're competent and you want to lead, then go for it: be an officer. I always encourage people who are competent and are contemplating going for a commission. If you want to go up, then go for it. None of that "American" anti-intellectualism and "pride of being at the bottom and shaming for reaching up". Making a decision to becoming an officer is your first of many life changing decisions not only for you but also for those who'll be under your command.

Don't worry about the acronyms; everyone, even senior NCOs, still try to find what a specific acronym means.


----------



## TreeLion

Hello,

I have heard about different education categories (the field of study of the degree) for direct entry like Ideal/Accepted, as well as the initial offer could be higher if you are under the Ideal category. Is there a way to find out what they are for a specific trade?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## winds_13

TreeLion, officer pay varies by Entry Plan (ROTP, DEO, CEOTP, CFR, SCP, etc.), not whether an applicant meets either the 'acceptable' or 'ideal' Entry Standard for said Entry Plan. 

Of note, it also varies by trade, with seperate rates for pilots and specialist officers (medical, dental, and legal officers). 

The officer pay scale can be found on the Government of Canada website:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/pay-pension-benefits/pay/officers.html


----------



## Sadukar09

Buck_HRA said:
			
		

> Yes all officers are enrolled as OCdt; however other than ROTP they all receive pay as 2Lt or higher while on BMOQ.  Only ROTP receive OCdt pay while undergoing training.
> 
> So to clarify.
> 
> Rank on Shoulder
> While on BMOQ: OCdt
> Upon completion of BMOQ: 2Lt/Lt/Capt (depending on occupation)
> 
> Pay
> While on BMOQ: 2Lt/Lt/CApt (depending on occupation)



It sounds like CFRC is giving out ranks higher than OCdt at enrollment now.

A friend of mine was commissioned immediately as a DEO Lt, and was authorized to wear Lt rank at CFLRS during BMOQ.


----------



## BeyondTheNow

Sadukar09 said:
			
		

> It sounds like CFRC is giving out ranks higher than OCdt at enrollment now.
> 
> A friend of mine was commissioned immediately as a DEO Lt, and was authorized to wear Lt rank at CFLRS during BMOQ.



If that’s accurate (and your friend has no prior CAF/military service to speak of?) then I’d think there must be PLARs factored in to warrant them wearing rank before even completing basic. There must be more to that situation beyond them simply being a standard recruit...


----------



## dapaterson

Enrolled as an OCdt, commissioned as a 2lt with simultaneous promotion to Lt.

There are deliberate steps followed for specific reasons.


----------



## Sadukar09

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> If that’s accurate (and your friend has no prior CAF/military service to speak of?) then I’d think there must be PLARs factored in to warrant them wearing rank before even completing basic. There must be more to that situation beyond them simply being a standard recruit...



No prior service into a rare trade, with significant civilian background. I figured there's a PLAR too.



			
				dapaterson said:
			
		

> Enrolled as an OCdt, commissioned as a 2lt with simultaneous promotion to Lt.
> 
> There are deliberate steps followed for specific reasons.



Administratively I guess that's how it works. His offer letter stated "b. will be enrolled at the rank of Lieutenant."

Still odd to allow people to wear their rank before them at least completely BMOQ.


----------

