# CF advertising at school



## Aislinn (4 Mar 2005)

I'm a volunteer on the student union board at my college. I'm also in the process of recruiting in the Canadian army. Because of this, I had some rather interesting issues at my last student union meeting. We have advertising in washrooms on campus (always a controversial issue, for some reason), but the latest is to make this advertising slightly more palatable to the student body. They way the union wants to go about this is by banning some types of advertsing: homophopic, overtly sexist, and anything to do with the Canadian Forces. Can you see how these all go together? Anyways, I asked for good solid reasons why we shouldn't have CF advertising. It sounds like too many of my fellow students took Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 too seriously. The most popular reasoning I got was that advertising by the CF is wrong because in order to get help on paying for schooling, you must be willing to kill someone and that is immoral. Later on in the meeting, someone mentioned that we had to get tough on the administration and may have to go commando. And then she apologized for using a military term! Sometimes I wonder what I'm actually accomplishing on the board. Any thoughts on all this?

Cheers.


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## Big Foot (4 Mar 2005)

Enami, I'm afraid this seems to be common place amoung our enlightened post-secondary students these days. Its a real shame that an anti-military sentiment has become seemingly engrained into our post-secondary institutions. I guess all you can really do is grin it and bear it. Hard to do, I know, but you can't change the ignorant.


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## Britney Spears (4 Mar 2005)

> And then she apologized for using a military term! Sometimes I wonder what I'm actually accomplishing on the board. Any thoughts on all this?



Ask her out on a date. Women say they hate something, but you know what they really want.....


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## ab136 (4 Mar 2005)

God I hope your not serious????


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## Aislinn (4 Mar 2005)

Sorry! As a female myself, I don't really lean that way...my fiance might enjoy that, though!

Cheers.


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## Infanteer (4 Mar 2005)

OOOooohh...give her the Col. Nathan Jessup speech.  Maybe that will put her into tears!


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## Gayson (4 Mar 2005)

Infanteer, 

Do you you have a link to this speech?  I would very much like to read it!


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## BernDawg (4 Mar 2005)

um...   Have you ever seen "A Few Good Men" with Jack Nicholson? If you have then you've heard the speach.

Here it is any way.

http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/00/jyang/quotes.html


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## ArmyRick (4 Mar 2005)

Taking Michael Moore's advice? Anybody with half an IQ would realize that Moore is an obese stupid moron that does nothing but rant aimlessly about any political issue that will help stuff his fat pockets with more $$$. Honestly the stupid fat ##*&^% is getting rich by ranting and raving and not offering any real solutions to problems.

Enami, stay the course. It will pay off in the long run.


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## John Nayduk (4 Mar 2005)

Remember that they sit in school working on theories of how life should be, taking guidance from people like Mr. Moore.  Most will find that life is very different once they leave school.  I hope that the soldiers who fought and died to provide the life the students now enjoy aren't too ashamed of what we have let their society become.  Remember, freedom isn't bought, it is only rented and the rent has to be paid.


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## foerestedwarrior (5 Mar 2005)

Another Recce Guy said:
			
		

> Remember, freedom isn't bought, it is only rented and the rent has to be paid.



Awesome....that is a really good!!

I would just point out that you are saying that the only reason that some one would join is to get money. I dont know about the rest of you, but I joined to serve my country. Secondly, dont be rude to them, inform them, about how the military REALLY works, we are not ALL killer commandos that go around killing everyone we see.

Also, tell them that the freedom they are using to make a decision like that is paid for in the blood and sweat of many soldiers before them, and more to come. Tell them how they are saying that protecting the freedoms of the civilians is something that has to be done, and why is it a bad thing to recruit in the school. 

Like I said, the best way to deal with people like that, is to inform them of the truth.


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## pbi (5 Mar 2005)

Well..on the one hand, at least your foes recognize something quite a few people in the CF shy away from (including a few who have posted here from time to time...): the ultimate purpose of the military is to use lethal force, and all of us in uniform have a direct or indirect role in that. That is a fact and if you try to avoid it and argue your way around it, you are at risk of tying yourself in intellectual knots and looking like a hypocrite. So, don't bother hiding it: go with it as a strength. Nobody is forced to serve in this country, so only those who can morally accept the use of lethal force will join (or, anyway, should join...).Therefore our advertising is merely the offering of an option. The purpose of the military is not to disadvantage or harm any sector of Canadian society, as homophobes and racists intend to do. Instead we undertake to serve Canadian society as a whole, and we have accepted that at some point this will require the use of lethal force, including in an offensive manner. (Do not advance the wimpy, hypocritical argument that we only use force if somebody shoots at us first).Ask them how the massacres in Rwanda, Cambodia, and elsewhere could have been immediately halted without effective offensive action against the killers? By holding a peace conference?

 Therefore IMHO, considering all of the above, we are a public institution, serving the nation at large. Thus, we have as much right to have our advertising displayed as the RCMP, the Coast Guard, or any other arm of government. Given the risks undertaken and lives lost on behalf of Canada, probably more right.

To me, that line of argument counters their moral equation of our recruiting material to the level of hate literature.

Secondly, it always fascinates me that the first impulse of so many university types is to ban speech or ideas that they do not like. This is a bit odd, considering that (IMHO) one of the great gifts and purposes of a university education should be the ability to appreciate, consider and tolerate other points of view. Instead, we often see the opposite. I suggest to these people that if they dislike military recruiting posters in their schools, that the correct approach is not to ban the material, but to let it be posted freely, then put up material challenging it. (That should be worth a chuckle-such stuff is usually not known for having much factual basis...).

These individuals might consider the outcome, and how they might like it, if someone in power was to ban their posters or stop their speeches, rallies, etc. because people didn't "like" them. They always imagine that they and their opinions will forever be in the majority and in power. IMHO true free speech is not ensuring that the ideas you like are heard over all others-it is, instead, to ensure that all ideas are heard. Once they have been heard, they can be attacked or defended or dismissed on their own merits. Unless an idea is clearly intended to urge hatred and harm to a group in such a manner as to cause criminal acts in our society, then I would not be in favour of "banning" any expression.

And, if none of that works, bash them with a pick handle, really hard. >

Cheers


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## BernDawg (5 Mar 2005)

"Ain't nothin' like a nice piece of hickory."


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## Tpr.Orange (5 Mar 2005)

Why not ask these people to come down to an information session at a local armoury, or have a member currently serving in the CF who attends your school and takes advantage of the 2000$ a year bursary and have them discuss with   your fellow board members what infact the CF does and try and find out why exactly they believe that the CF is such a horrible place *in their minds*? 

I would love to hear some of the responses of these individuals, if you belong to a school in the GTA please feel free to Private message me, because i would love to take some time out of my busy day as a recruiter to come listen to the views of some of these narrow minded individuals.


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## Tpr.Orange (5 Mar 2005)

the worst that can happen is they say no and stick to their opinions, its just a discussion, all it takes is a few points to put them in their places so they understand. I wouldn't even need to come in uniform because that might just make them uncomfortable, but just explaining it in a set of civvies would be more effective then doing it in uniform.


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## pbi (6 Mar 2005)

I agree with CFN and 2332. Confronting these people head on, with facts, is often a very good way to disarm them. Most of them know absolutely nothing about the military, and have never actually had a conversation with a person in uniform. They also tend to have extremely distorted views of world   events: ie: "_US bad, enemies of US good_", and again often have no grasp of the facts.

However, some of them (and in particular their faculty supporters...) may be very well informed and able to debate quite well. That is why I recommended that you do not get yourself out on some moral and intellectual limb which they will then saw off behind you. We are who we are, there is a meaningful place and role for lethal force, and we have nothing to be ashamed of.

If you aren't sure of these things in your own mind, you may end up getting eaten for breakfast, or else slipping intro that disgusting "_C'mon guys--we're just happy harmless blue peacekeeper folks-give us   break, eh_?" that makes me squirm every time I hear it.

Good luck-fight the good fight!

Cheers


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## DSB (10 Mar 2005)

Correct me if I run off on a tangent.

As a CF member and someone who has had some experience teaching I believe the CF should not be recruiting in schools and colleges.  

Many young people have a really distorted and unreal view of the army.  Posters and some ads can often be misleading and perhaps too tempting for some people, (the immature type).  Often they join and realise the army is nothing like they thought is was going to be. 

I've done recruiting at schools and am always blown away by the consistent barage of immaturity, they are kids.  High school, early college, early university....they are kids, most of these people have not really lived and haven't walked the earth. I think the army would be better served by recruiting at job fairs, trade shows, and perhaps gearing recruitment to slightly older groups.  Targeting groups that have skill sets useful to the CF might work.  Target specific programs, (like they do for medic reserve when they target paramedic colleges and nursing schools).  From a reserve standpoint I've seen young kids who have never had a job, never lived away from home, some of them are just walking into puberty.  These kids show up and are wreck in days.  

Maybe this is a selection issue and the recruiting office needs to deal with it.   I'm sure advertising plays a role in all this as well.  

just my two cents,

DSB


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## Pte. Bloggins (10 Mar 2005)

DSB said:
			
		

> Correct me if I run off on a tangent.
> 
> As a CF member and someone who has had some experience teaching I believe the CF should not be recruiting in schools and colleges.



IMHO, schools and colleges are a prime source of recruits for reservists. Most people in my unit attend or attended in the past college or university, and if it wasn't for units recruiting in schools they never would have thought of joining the CF. I know this was the case with me, my unit came to recruit at my high school and that was why I joined. I hadn't even considered the military as a job option before this.


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## DSB (10 Mar 2005)

"IMHO, schools and colleges are a prime source of recruits for reservists. Most people in my unit attend or attended in the past college or university, and if it wasn't for units recruiting in schools they never would have thought of joining the CF. I know this was the case with me, my unit came to recruit at my high school and that was why I joined. I hadn't even considered the military as a job option before this. "


I know tonnes of people get in via highschool recruitment, co-ops and such.  I still feel targeting young sheep can be problematic.  Why not target upperclassmen?  People with the maturity and life experience to really understand the importance of their roles?  

I joined young, I joined for all the wrong reasons...thankfully fate was nice to me and I ended up in a great unit, doing a great job.  I just think that a lot of young people, (high school ,early uni and college), don't even know who they are and what they want.  (I say a lot and not all mind you)  Look at the police, they look for a lot more than warm bodies and aptitude tests.  I don't know very many cops who get in fresh outta highschool.  Its all about walking the earth.  Just something to consider.



DSB


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## GIJANE (10 Mar 2005)

DSB said:
			
		

> "IMHO, schools and colleges are a prime source of recruits for reservists. Most people in my unit attend or attended in the past college or university, and if it wasn't for units recruiting in schools they never would have thought of joining the CF. I know this was the case with me, my unit came to recruit at my high school and that was why I joined. I hadn't even considered the military as a job option before this. "
> 
> 
> I know tonnes of people get in via highschool recruitment, co-ops and such.   I still feel targeting young sheep can be problematic.   Why not target upperclassmen?   People with the maturity and life experience to really understand the importance of their roles?
> ...




I know some 30 somethings who don't know that yet either so.....there is also the Reserves which is a little less demanding (what i mean by that is that you don't have to sign a 20 year contract or anything) they can join the reserves, go to school and figure out what else they want to do in the long run. The military can be a great career!

Jane


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## Harris (10 Mar 2005)

Unfortunately, targeting older, wiser recruits isn't the answer either.  Many of these people have already gotten "real" jobs, have started families, etc... and are not interested in another part time job (at least I suspect that's how they see a Reserve Job).  IMHO we need to get people from both high school and from other, later walks of life.  But the numbers to only target one group just aren't there.  Many Units are having a hard time filling the holes created by people retiring, transferring to the Regular Force, or just getting out for various reasons.  I firmly believe that the Forces will not be able to meet the 8000 additional pers requirements and also fill the posns from departing members.  We have to target everybody who can pass the necessary tests if we want to increase the numbers.  There needs to be more advertising, in more walks of life if we ever want to reach these goals.  Lets be realistic, most people don't want to be in the military as it is seen as a poor career choice.  The public needs to be educated about what the military really does vice what Hollywood chooses to show on the big screen.


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## DSB (10 Mar 2005)

"  The public needs to be educated about what the military really does vice what Hollywood chooses to show on the big screen.  "


This sounds like the meat of the issue to me.  Present the reality and see who bites into that.  SO many of these kids coming in just have no idea.

We live and learn i suppose.

DSB


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## Matt-Z (10 Mar 2005)

As a Sargent once told me.... "we are in the business of two things, killing people and saving live"   Sometimes you have to do one to do the other... and are these people saying that saving lives is immoral too? It only takes a single person with an AK 47 and a single clip to kill 30 people (if could actually aim with it).... should we allow them to do this just because stopping him could possibly mean taking his life?

personally I'm very happy that my school encourages any student to look into the CF as a career possibility. We support advertisement and allow frequent visits from various regiments.... Being a student myself going through my BMQ and SQ I am extremely gratefull for the opportunity's that the CF is giving me and it pains me to see that Other kids are not being informed about the many great benefits the CF has to offer.


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## Pte. Bloggins (10 Mar 2005)

DSB said:
			
		

> I know tonnes of people get in via highschool recruitment, co-ops and such.   I still feel targeting young sheep can be problematic.   Why not target upperclassmen?   People with the maturity and life experience to really understand the importance of their roles?



Because people who have been in university sometimes tend to acquire this attitude that they know better then much of society, because they have this higher level of education. (I say this as a first-year university student, based on what I've seen in my slight experience at university.) Such people don't always take too kindly to being at the bottom of the totem pole, having to take orders from others. They might be more suited to be recruited as officers, where they would have the opportunity of leadership and feeling like they could but their learned skills to some use. 

Kids in high school might not know what they want yet, true, but trying out a part-time gig as a reservist might be a great way for them to find out what it is they want. Hey, it might be a long-term career in the military, who knows?

(This is of course, just my 2 cents.)


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## The_Falcon (11 Mar 2005)

It should also be noted that what you do typically in the military is a young persons job (in terms of the physical requirements, and if you happened to get injured or develop problems, young people general heal quicker).  In terms  of changing peoples preconceived notions about what the military is like, well that is where competent recruiting comes in.  The recruiting needs to accurately portay what we do.  And if recruiters aren't doing that they need to be replaced.  As for troops who are immature etc., that is where the training failed not the recruiting.  Recruiting is done to find potenial soldiers, the onus of blame for sub-standard soldiers should fall on the training establishment.  It is thier job to turn the immature civy into a mature and compentent SOLDIER.


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## Canuck_25 (11 Mar 2005)

Harris said:
			
		

> I firmlay believe that the Forces will not be able to meet the 8000 additional pers requirements and also fill the posns from departing members.



 Well, with a country of 30 million people, that number is pretty small. I think the CF should visit small deprived communities like mine to recruit people. Thats what the yanks do, they recruit rural people with no future.


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## pbi (11 Mar 2005)

> I think the army would be better served by recruiting at job fairs, trade shows, and perhaps gearing recruitment to slightly older groups



No! No! We are already way too old as a force now, and aging out rapidly. The recent decision to allow people to stay until 60 was, IMHO, a terrible mistake in a force as small as ours: it practically guarantees stagnation that will ripple through an already glacial promotion system, causing further attrition and encouraging the timeservers.
While our society may produce a few (and I stress "a few"") people who are fitter and   more capable at an older age, this is IMHO not statistically enough to offset the aging process we are confronting. Armies have proven throughout history that an 18 year old can be trained to be a highly effective  soldier. In the Army, anyway, we need a good supply of young, keen, fit and aggressive people for the types of situations we are likely to face. High schools and colleges are exactly where we need to be. Job fairs, etc are fine but IMHO are not likely to attract either the quantity or the quality that we need to keep our Army, especially our Combat Arms, vital and healthy.

Cheers.


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## ArmyRick (11 Mar 2005)

PBI is quite correct IMO. I have seen a few poor results of this stay in until 60 business. It won't be the JR NCM in Battalions or Regiments staying around that long (Those are the bodies we truly need). They get too exhausted and worn out.
It will be some higher ranking pers (Officer and NCM) hanging around in some RSS or HQ type jobs and they will probably cling to these postings for dear life. 
I don't mean this as disrespect for anyone in said jobs. Just a few individuals.

There is one SGT in a HQ job I know (no names, no pack drill) of who has been at this posting for 13 years and hasn't been deployed or on operations once.


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## Harris (11 Mar 2005)

"Well, with a country of 30 million people, that number is pretty small. I think the CF should visit small deprived communities like mine to recruit people. Thats what the yanks do, they recruit rural people with no future."

The problem with this approach is the Infrastructure and/or extra costs associated with getting people from distant communities.  It is far more cost effective to recruit from major centres.  Less transport, time needed to do things etc...

I'm not saying its right, but it is the way things are looked at.


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## pbi (11 Mar 2005)

IIRC the average age of British Army General Officers at the start of WWI was 70. We know (anecdotally, at least...) of the hidebound, conservative "fox-hunting" mentality of too great a proportion of the British Army officer cadre during much of that war. You are right, ArmyRick: the older folks will pile up at the top end (if only because people lower down will quit in frustration...). The results, IMHO could be not only a strangulation of the promotion system that is essential to a vital, healthy force, but also a collection of narrow-minded old codgers who have survived as long as they have by keeping their heads down, or by avoiding any dangerous duties. Bad news in any force: disastrous in an Army as tiny as ours.

Cheers.


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## Korus (11 Mar 2005)

> Because people who have been in university sometimes tend to acquire this attitude that they know better then much of society, because they have this higher level of education. (I say this as a first-year university student, based on what I've seen in my slight experience at university.) Such people don't always take too kindly to being at the bottom of the totem pole, having to take orders from others. They might be more suited to be recruited as officers, where they would have the opportunity of leadership and feeling like they could but their learned skills to some use.



I've been in University for 4 years now, and every day I notice that attitude more and more amongst university students (not saying that it's icnreasing, just that I notice it more). Sometimes it's an interesting line to walk being a soldier amongst the anti-everything-and-I-don't-know-why crowd at university. I finish in my degree in 47 days, and when discussing plans for the future with other uni students that I know, It comes up that I'm looking into deployment overseas with the Army. The usual response is "why would you want to risk your life for that?", "Are you suicidal?" or "So you want to kill people?". But I guess that goes with the ground.

As for recruiting them as officers because they don't enjoy being at the bottom of a totem pole, I don't agree with that. IMHO, an officer with a "I'm higher and better than my NCMs" attitude would NOT gain the respect of his/her troops, and would not be very effective at all.


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## Pte. Bloggins (11 Mar 2005)

~RoKo~ said:
			
		

> As for recruiting them as officers because they don't enjoy being at the bottom of a totem pole, I don't agree with that. IMHO, an officer with a "I'm higher and better than my NCMs" attitude would NOT gain the respect of his/her troops, and would not be very effective at all.



Oh, I'm not suggesting this would be effective, I'm suggesting this is what ends up happenning sometimes. I mean, officers need a degree to become officers, don't they, and these kind of types might end up being recruited whether we like it or not. Not saying all or even the majority of officers are like this, but I'm sure everyone's encountered the odd one at some point in their career.


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## Korus (11 Mar 2005)

I guess it's just a case of both of us arguing the same point, but differently.  

Cheers


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## Pte. Bloggins (11 Mar 2005)

Basically, yes.  ;D


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## PJ D-Dog (21 Mar 2005)

In 1993, I was conducting recruiting activities at a local high school in rural central New Brunswick.  Our reserve unit had a push on for more members and we were visiting schools across our area of responsibility.

At one school, we set up a lunch hour display in the hallway and the interest shown by the students was marginal.  A female student approached our display.  She was roughly 17, dressed in black from head to toe.  She wore a string around her neck and attached to the end of it was a wire cage with a rock inside.  Her form fitting uniform-like outfit revealed that she was very obviously pregnant.

She came up to us and before we could give her any type of greeting, she immediate spouted out that we were baby killers.  All she said for the first 10 seconds was "baby killers" in a whinny voice ensuring that she drew out every syllable in "kil-lers".  I greeted her professionally and asked how she knew we were baby killers and pointed out that I had never killed anything in the line of duty.  As I tried to give her the safety answer with the condom on top, my recruiting officer stepped in and agreed with her that we were in fact baby killers.  This, of course, got her attention.  He explained that he was just living up to the macho, killing machine stereotype that most ill informed civilians had of the military.  As the discussion turned into an argument, he politely explained to her that our job as soldiers was to protect her right of freedom of expression that permitted her to call us baby killers, even if it was untrue.  She paused and replied: "uh...uh...baby killers".

At another school, we were pelted with snow balls at a spring outdoor equipment display.  Rather than complain, the officer in charge decided to just leave.

There is definitely a dire need to advertise in the public school system.  Unfortunately, recruiters have not always been able to foster a good working relationship with school staff in order to gain access to those students who would like to join the military.  Out of the five high schools in our region, I had two who cooperated fully with us and taught the virtues of military service to their students.  Most of the guidance counselors I dealt with were very obviously anti-war, anti-military pro green peace and very much living in a peace-nik dream world.  It is unfortunate but the schools are not teaching to be open minded.  Instead, they are dictating opinion and lean entirely too much to the left.  When green peace posters have more precedence on the wall than CF recruiting posters, then there is a problem.

Unfortunately, the CO of regiments or recruiting stations don't care to get involved in political debates with schools and would just rather not deal with them instead of fixing the situation.  They are all too interested in protecting their careers.

My Marine recruiting buddies tell me they have some of the same problems with smaller schools.  The difference, however, lies in the fact that the CO of the recruiting station has no problems in visiting a difficult school to try and set them straight and show the administration that it is in their interest to support our recruiting activities.  By law, US public school have to give up a copy of the graduating class roster to the recruiting office or they could loose federal funding for their school.  It's a case of "you rub my back, and I won't file a complaint with the government and cut off your funding so you can keep your job".

PJ D-Dog


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## atticus (21 Mar 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> By law, US public school have to give up a copy of the graduating class roster to the recruiting office or they could loose federal funding for their school.  It's a case of "you rub my back, and I won't file a complaint with the government and cut off your funding so you can keep your job".



Isn't that because the US has a draft and not because the recruiting officers want to harrass the graduating students?


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## PJ D-Dog (21 Mar 2005)

atticus said:
			
		

> Isn't that because the US has a draft and not because the recruiting officers want to harrass the graduating students?



There hasn't been a draft in the US since the early 1970s during the Vietnam war.  The draft is not based on the high school gradution list.  It is based on year of birth.  It there was a draft today, there would be a lottery based on a birth year.  The lottery would determin who would be drafted based on what month they were bron in that given year.  There is more to it than that but that's the draft in a nut shell.

I would not call recruiting "harrassment".  They use aggressive sales techniques to find new applicants.  There are two fundamental differences in how the CF recruits and how the Marines recruit.  The CF puts itself out there (more or less) in order to ATTRACT prospective recruits.  We go out there and FIND prospective recruits.  In many cases, young people are two timid to actually walk into a recruiting office but if you ask them if they are interested, then it often becomes a different story.  Some people would have never joined if it were not for a recruiter asking them and then providing accurate information on which to make an informed decision as opposed to wondering and getting all sorts of assumptions from people who just don't know.  Hope that answers your question.

PJ


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## TCBF (21 Mar 2005)

"Her form fitting uniform-like outfit revealed that she was very obviously pregnant."

I didn't do it.

 ;D

Tom


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## atticus (21 Mar 2005)

PJ D-Dog said:
			
		

> There hasn't been a draft in the US since the early 1970s during the Vietnam war.  The draft is not based on the high school gradution list.  It is based on year of birth.  It there was a draft today, there would be a lottery based on a birth year.  The lottery would determin who would be drafted based on what month they were bron in that given year.  There is more to it than that but that's the draft in a nut shell.
> 
> I would not call recruiting "harrassment".  They use aggressive sales techniques to find new applicants.



Oh I thought that there was still the draft. I just thought it was still around becuase I went on a tour in Europe and there was a large group of Americans from Lousiana on the tour, and talking to them I was under the impression that there was still a draft, where all males when they reach a certain age after graduation they have to tell the gov't where they are in case of a draft. 

I didn't mean to call recruiting harrassment, I thought it was odd how the schools give a list of the graduates for the recruiters to use. Do they call certain students up at home and ask the to join the Marines? What would the list of graduates be used for?


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## PJ D-Dog (22 Mar 2005)

atticus said:
			
		

> Oh I thought that there was still the draft. I just thought it was still around becuase I went on a tour in Europe and there was a large group of Americans from Lousiana on the tour, and talking to them I was under the impression that there was still a draft, where all males when they reach a certain age after graduation they have to tell the gov't where they are in case of a draft.



It's called selective service.  After the draft was over, there was a need for a pool of names just in case there was a shortage but not large enough to justify a draft, then you could be called up.  That system is still in place.

I didn't mean to call recruiting harrassment, I thought it was odd how the schools give a list of the graduates for the recruiters to use. Do they call certain students up at home and ask the to join the Marines? What would the list of graduates be used for?

The list is used for recruiting.  They call them all up and ask if they are interested in joining.  Surprisingly, you can use these lists up to two years after they graduate as some fall on hard times and can't get work and don't really consider the military until it is mentioned to them.

PJ D-Dog


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## resolute (23 Mar 2005)

Enami,

I can't believe your school's policies are that restrictive!

If I were aware of a problem like that at my school, I'd certainly do whatever I could to change things.   As some of the thread's participants have already pointed out, the liberal movement tends to push "freedom of speech" and "tolerance" ... but many of them only extend these rights to those who agree with them.

As far as the social environment at my school, all I can say is that medical students are probably even MORE anti-war and anti-military than the average liberal arts student.   The profession has a tendency to attract pacifists I guess.   In my humble opinion, complete pacifism is as pathologically unidimensional as complete aggression / warmongering.

A normal, well-adjusted man should be able to feel compassion (and perhaps even cry) when confronted with an innocent victim, and righteous rage (and perhaps even kill) when confronted with the perpetrator of the victimization.   Note that I am referring to an extreme situation here, such as rape.

I'd be curious to know...in terms of the Cdn population...what percentage of people are actually hippy/anti-military, and the age distribution.


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## NATO Boy (23 Mar 2005)

If you think that the "lack of support" at school is bad, wait until you run into anti-military rebels!

I remember my sencond month of being in uniform; months after the US started invading Iraq. The local bank beside our Armoury was desecrated with anti-war grafiti that proudly proclaimed "THIS IS NOT YOUR WAR, CANADA!!!" To see this kind of hatred against the CF (regarding an issue with the US???) left me stunned.

But nothing has changed; there are still time when a few members of my regiment get harrassed (or even attacked) by anti-war protestors and other people who just have such a strong bias against the Military that they cannot possibly comprehend what we actually "do over there!"

This is something that is unavoidable IMHO and will always be encountered in public...and it doesn't make it easier to bear when you realise that it's part of the very society "we stand on guard for thee."


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## Forgotten_Hero (23 Mar 2005)

> It's called selective service.  After the draft was over, there was a need for a pool of names just in case there was a shortage but not large enough to justify a draft, then you could be called up.  That system is still in place.



Isnt it mandatory to fill that thing out though? Thats why people conveniently go on a "vacation" when they need to hand in the info.


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## ArmyRick (23 Mar 2005)

I would say to the desperate anti-war crowd in our country...
(1) The '60s are over and they're were not all that grand to begin with, stop wishing to live in another time.
(2) Unreasonable states, regimes and governments do not respond to "political pressure" or trade embargos, some times they must be met with LETHAL FORCE.
(3) When you turn 18 and see how the real world works, maybe you will change your mind (assuming the drugs you are using havn't fried your noodle)...


Extremist on the anti-war, anti-US, etc, etc, tell them basically to get a life.


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## pbi (24 Mar 2005)

Speaking of ignorance about the US system: last night I attended the Annual Employer Awards Ceremony held by CFLC at 17 Wing, Wpg for employers in MB/NWONT who give Res time off for service. The guest speaker was the Hon. Peter Liba, past LG of MB. During his opening speech stressing the importance of Res to Canada, he compared our situation to that of the US and stated words to the effect of "but they don't need to worry about that in the US-they have the draft".

Rather shocking ignorance from the man who was once the representative of the Head of State in our Province.

Cheers.


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## PJ D-Dog (24 Mar 2005)

Forgotten_Hero said:
			
		

> Isnt it mandatory to fill that thing out though? Thats why people conveniently go on a "vacation" when they need to hand in the info.



If you want to get a government job or received funding for school, you have to register with selective service.  It's the law.  If you don't register, you can be prosecuted.  Government employers will not hire you if you don't register.

No one will necessarily come knocking down your door for failure to register but it is a law and to receive government benefits, you need to register.

Honestly, I can't remember of any case when someone was called up through selective service.  It's a tool that is there in case it is needed.

I think you are getting confused with elements of the draft back in the late 60s early 70s.  Back then, people went on a vacation of convenience to Canada.  There is currently no draft going on in the US nor is anyone being called up through selective service.  It is all volunteer.

The only people being called up are the inactive reservists.  When you join up, you sign a contract for 4 years of active duty and 4 years of inactive ready reserve (IRR) for a total of 8 years.  The only people who got recalled were the IRR Marines who still had an obligation of service even though they were no longer on active duty.  Clear as mud...good.

PJ D-Dog


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## Cpl.Banks (24 Mar 2005)

Simple really, selective service means that your name adress, phone number etc... is there in case they need to contact you. Recruiters will call? to see if you are interested in the armed forces. And if there is a desperate need for soldiers It CAN be used to recuit new troops.Nothing too too complicated, IMHO this is a pretty good idea and maybe we should do the same...my two cents
UBIQUE!!!!!!!!


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## HollywoodHitman (24 Mar 2005)

pbi said:
			
		

> And, if none of that works, bash them with a pick handle, really hard. >



It's not a pick handle........It's called the "Persuader, CF Mark I"


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## Forgotten_Hero (24 Mar 2005)

> I think you are getting confused with elements of the draft back in the late 60s early 70s.  Back then, people went on a vacation of convenience to Canada.  There is currently no draft going on in the US nor is anyone being called up through selective service.  It is all volunteer.



Nah, Im not confusing it with that... I just over heard some people talking on another board... one was chinese but going to school in the US... he said something about going back to China when he turns 18 so that he doesnt have to sign that draft sheet.


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## PJ D-Dog (26 Mar 2005)

Forgotten_Hero said:
			
		

> Nah, Im not confusing it with that... I just over heard some people talking on another board... one was chinese but going to school in the US... he said something about going back to China when he turns 18 so that he doesnt have to sign that draft sheet.



Again, the source you getting this from is probably confused.  There is no such thing as a draft sheet.  There are a lot of misconceptions about selective service and some young people just don't understand it or they were not given the most accurate information...."I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend twice removed on the German side etc".  Selective service is not the draft.  It may be used if a draft is called for but is not a draft.  Go to www.sss.gov and you can see what it is about.

PJ D-Dog


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## jerrythunder (26 Mar 2005)

Big Foot said:
			
		

> Enami, I'm afraid this seems to be common place amoung our enlightened post-secondary students these days. Its a real shame that an anti-military sentiment has become seemingly engrained into our post-secondary institutions. I guess all you can really do is grin it and bear it. Hard to do, I know, but you can't change the ignorant.



well its like this with about 80 percent of our student body in my highschool, i thought one day to ask around about what people thought about our army and about joining and stuff like that and most of them said that they would never because they didnt want to kill people or get killed or commit or something like that. Now, no offense to the women out there in my school but every one of them, after me telling them that im going to be a reservist, told me not to join and that i am going to get killed

well my reply to that was: im not going to sit around and let other people defend my country! im a canadian and a damn proud one and im going to defend my country even if it means dying.


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## Pte Cowden (26 Mar 2005)

Yeah man, i go to mohawk college, and there was a recruit poster that said 'Join The Argyll's!' and someone wrote over the poster "No War".

It made me really angry, and confused. i really wasn't impressed.


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## PJ D-Dog (26 Mar 2005)

Pte Cowden said:
			
		

> Yeah man, i go to mohawk college, and there was a recruit poster that said 'Join The Argyll's!' and someone wrote over the poster "No War".
> 
> It made me really angry, and confused. i really wasn't impressed.



Confused about what....I would just have been angry or at the very least annoyed.


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## pbi (27 Mar 2005)

Pte Cowden said:
			
		

> Yeah man, i go to mohawk college, and there was a recruit poster that said 'Join The Argyll's!' and someone wrote over the poster "No War".
> 
> It made me really angry, and confused. i really wasn't impressed.



So channel your anger. Put up two posters where the old one was. Don't give grouind-why should you? What makes our arguments any less valid or persuasive than theirs? Theirs often seem to be based on an utterly uninformed view of the world, plus a fairly complete rejection of concepts such as duty, responsibility or service to others, or the idea that armed, aggressive evil has to be confronted or we get Rwanda and Sudan. We have as much right as anybody to put up public information, and we should challenge people who stop us. (Challenge--not thrash--never mind my earlier pickhandle comment...)

Cheers.


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## Cpl.Banks (27 Mar 2005)

When our teacher asked us all what we wanted to be there was the usual dribble: "Doctor", "Doctor", "Doctor"etc...Although most of them will be doctors because we are in the IB,anyways then my teach asks me and I tell her first Resv then Regs. She just looks at me like im from another planet! She asked why I wanted to die, why I wanted to serve the US by being their pupet etc...She didnt let up and I had to explain to her that I wanted to serve my country and make a difference in the world (while enjoying a few perks...early retirment/mil pension). From that day on she never talked to me again other than the polite crap saying that she doesnt like me. Half the people in my class are from other countries and they dont understand why I would want to serve our country and the other half are all Anti-War. When I tell them about all the cool and interesting things that could happen in the army they are slightly swayed but then out Teach preaches more Anti-War BS! She gets me really angry  ...Stupid @!#$%, Anyways the point is I would want to get an army recruiter to come by the school and hopfully put some common sence into these ignorent masses. Any idea's on how I could accomplish this? Thanks
UBIQUE!!!!


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## jerrythunder (27 Mar 2005)

yeah i know what you mean,

so many people are so un informed about the military and what is going on and what they are used for. They do not take into account that the military is used for aid in national disasters, or some rescue operations and also peacekeeping operations. and they do not take into consideration that they propbably would not be here today if it wasnt for a canadian soldier.


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## MissHardie (27 Mar 2005)

On somewhat of a tangent, but still related to the thread:

Looking back at my school years, I'm struck by the near absolute lack of information presented about Canada's military history.  Even Remembrance Day ceremonies consisted of maybe a broadcast over the school intercom system of the Last Post and a minute of silence.  As solemn a ceremony it was, there was no context to this 'interruption of class', as one teacher put it, except the occasional 10 minute blurb on why it's important no one speak during the period of silence.  The knowledge I gleaned about Canada's proud military tradition during those years came primarily from my parents, as my dad was serving in the Navy. I'm therefore not surprised to read stories of teenagers and teachers and other civilians blowing off the military as an outdated institution, whose only purpose is to kill - with no knowledge of it's history or context as to why it is important, how could they but be influenced by the current pap being offered today by vocal groups and media outlets?  

The solution is, to me, quite obvious.  Why not add Canadian military history to the school curriculum? I realize that's a lot easier said than done, particularly given the attitudes of some educators, but I do see it as necessary.  It could be as simple as spending the day before the Remembrance Day holiday going over the background as to why we commemorate the soldiers who fought in the conflicts that essentially defined the 20th century, or going on a field trip to the local military museum and talking to vets. If I had my way, school kids wouldn't get the day off; they'd spend the morning doing a brief history or perhaps presenting projects on ancestors who fought in such conflicts before attending a ceremony either put on by the school or a local unit or the city - but I realize asking people to give up days off in the name of heritage and education is a bit much, so I'm not holding my breath.

This sort of education needn't be confined to the Remembrance Day time of year, either.  The best field trip I ever had, hands down, was a tour of my dad's ship when I was in second grade, in the spring.  I still remember thinking how cool it was - it was like I was being taken into some forbidden realm, where the people were actually doing Important Things.  I realize it's quite unfeasible to suggest that every grade-school class has a similar tour, but I see no reason why they can't be taken down to the local military museum to further their education - or even, maybe, to some local unit or base and being told about it's proud history and what it's currently doing.  The problem, as I see it, is that the military seems so distant and insulated from the civilian world, particularly in non-military cities.  Educating citizens about what we actually do - and have done - is the only solution I see to the seemingly increasing levels of hostility some members face.  There will always be those who believe what they do for no other reason than they want to, of course, but I think more exposure, particularly at the primary and secondary school level, would help shape those attitudes into something more accepting of - and perhaps foster pride in - our military.  

Anyhow, that turned out to be a longer tirade than I anticipated.

Miss Hardie


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## PJ D-Dog (27 Mar 2005)

Miss Hardie is right.  Military education in the schools is what we need but that is a long term solution.  It takes years to teach students from a young age about our military history.  This should be the first, long term step at changing the face of public opinion about the CF.

What the CF urgently needs now is an onslaught of good PR.  The CF has made a mess of many things because of its innability of control the PR world, even down to the brigade level.  The practice of assigning PAFO duties to some officer with nothing more than a five day indoctrination into the realm of public affairs is crazy.

PAFOs should work in concert with recruiting efforts at both community and school levels.  They should be used as an support arms in the arsenal of CF publicity.

When I was running recruiting in my unit, I bombarded every school, college, and employment center with posters and followed-up with phone calls and meetings.  I was publishing stories in the local newspapers and do live radio interviews on how the reserves was a great opportunity for people in the community.  I wrote the stories and sent them out as press releases.  I did, however run into a brigade PAFO issue.  This is off the thread but I'll tell the story anyway.

Brigade come down with a policy where all newspaper stories and radio interviews had to go through the PAFO.  Having been a formally trained journalist and a managing editor of my own newspaper (at one time), I knew how to do the job and get the message across.  Brigade wanted me to wait up to a month in order to get the PAFO to approve anything I wrote.  This was slowing down our efforts and my CO came to the rescue.  He told brigade that I was more qualified to be the PAFO than the PAFO was and we were granted an exception.  

Just to loop this back around, this is an example of how PAFOs are not used to the extent they should be.  Recruiting should be done at all levels and PAFOs can be a great resource but they are not used to their full capacity.

For recruiting efforts to be successful, they need to use this resource and train them properly.  Most PAFOs have never been to a press conference let alone held one.  I used to summond the local press every year and hold a press conference at the armoury to announce our recruiting campaign.  The brigade PAFOs and unit recruiters need to work together to get the message out there.

PJ D-Dog


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## Britney Spears (27 Mar 2005)

*PJ D-Dog*

Well, I disagree with you on the issue of pay-equity between regs and reserve, but on account of the above, you yourself should definetly have gotten at least a 15% raise.


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## Britney Spears (27 Mar 2005)

I know there's a thread dedicated to advertising for the CF, but I can't find it and this thread is also semi-relevent.


I came across <a href=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42512>this</a> over at Militaryphotos.net.

Pretty neat for a country the size of a large Canadian city.


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## kincanucks (27 Mar 2005)

Yes definitely pat yourself on the back.   Oh you did. ;D


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## Big Foot (27 Mar 2005)

Wow, I suddenly have the urge to go defend Singapore. Why can't we have ads like that?


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## jerrythunder (28 Mar 2005)

hey Britney Spears,

i was looking at those pictures and i cant figure out whether they're advertising the canadian army, the american army or some oriental country's army? is it one? them all ?


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## kincanucks (28 Mar 2005)

jerrythunder said:
			
		

> hey Britney Spears,
> 
> i was looking at those pictures and i cant figure out whether they're advertising the canadian army, the american army or some oriental country's army? is it one? them all ?



Are you serious?  How about the Singaporean military, DA.


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## Cpl.Banks (28 Mar 2005)

Ahahah yeah, I wasnt quite sure myself but then I noticed something...THEY ARE ALL SINGAPOREAN and have Singaporean symbols so then then they must be defending ...Mexico!? :blotto: Why cant we have Awsome posters like that, recruiting would be up within a few weeks of these being posted! then again ours are pretty cool : "Defend your country...or work a desk job at NDHQ!" ahahah not really but they arent much better. Who does our PR anyways?! IMHO they need to get a kick in the pants and hurry up!
UBIQUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## P-Free (28 Mar 2005)

Soldiers..trained to defend their country? Who woulda thunked it? Here I was thinking we live in a world of rose peddles and are just here to keep the eternal peace.

Maybe I'm far off on this one.


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## pbi (29 Mar 2005)

> The practice of assigning PAFO duties to some officer with nothing more than a five day indoctrination into the realm of public affairs is crazy.
> 
> PAFOs should work in concert with recruiting efforts at both community and school levels.   They should be used as an support arms in the arsenal of CF publicity.



This is a very true statement. Unfortunately the fault is not all on the side of the PA world-a lot of Cbt A types, especially senior ones who should know better, still don't fully   understand PA or Info Ops, and relegate it to a secondary role where it is bound to be ineffective.   Information is a weapon: it will be used by us or against us. If we are able to get our message out effectively by using our PA resources, we will do way better. The PAO needs to be part of the inner staff team of the HQ (or the unit) and has to be kept "in the loop". Info ops campaigns(such as we are launching now in LFWA to support the rebuilding of the Area's Res leadership cadre) have to involve the PA. You need to get your Bde PAOs away on the various Canadian and US Army courses that are offered (they can't qualify for the PA MOSID if they don't have the training). If you have a strong Bde PA cell, your UIOs can function with the basic PA introductory course, as long as they lean on the Bde for help, and stay plugged into the command and ops nets.
Finally, operators and PAOs need to be reminded that the PAO's job is not to be the "talking head"-their job is to get the operators (at all rank levels...) in front of the media. That is when we tell our story best. 

Cheers.


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