# Second Language Training ( SLT )



## Ralph

Anyone out there with experience with the Second Language Training program at St. Jean after officer basic training? I know it lasts a max. of 7 months, and you can take the test earlier if you want, but then youâ€™re just waiting around for your MOC to start, right? Do you end up being able to drill in French (or Anglais) and not much else? 
Cheers,
Ralph.


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## Zoomie

Ralph, being someone who was sentenced to the language school for close to 8 months, I can answer any question you have (I hope).
You will only be able to take the tests (plural) once your instructor feels you have a good chance of passing it and obtaining your profile.  You won‘t learn any drill commands in french, that‘s what BOTC is for.  You will learn conversational french as well as formal dialect.  You will go on "field trips" to Quebec city and other cultural facilites, in order to immerse yourself in the french language.

Any other questions, feel free to shout ‘em out.


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## Jug

I‘m also curious about this portion.

1. Are you more bilingual than when you started?
2. Do you have to pass a test to get out?
3. Is this all you do for the whole day for eight months? I imagine something else fills in the time.

Thanx


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## Zoomie

Here goes:

1)  More bilingual : certainment (certainly)

2) Test : have to get your french profile (functional ability) if you want to leave early, if not then there is no requirement for Anglos to pass the test at end of 8 months  (need the profile to be promoted to Major though, but that is far in the future.)

3)  Anything else to do?? : Nope, that‘s it... 9am to 4 pm, for 8 months straight.  All in dress uniform too, so you get proficient at ironing, that‘s for sure


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## Ralph

1. How does leave work while you‘re there? Is there summer block leave (or whatever it‘s called) or do you just get long weekends to try to get home? My wife can handle me being gone and miserable at the bottom of a trench, but going to school less than she works every day? Not quite as much...
2. Do you get e-mail access, both/either on BOTC and 2nd Language? I remember having to hang out by the payphone in Gagetown as my only link to the outside world, years ago.
Cheers,
Ralph.


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## Ian

Not sure about the leave during second language training (I get to attend that next summer), but you will get computer access during your entire stay at St-Jean.

You won‘t get much chance to use a computer (if at all) during the first four weeks there, but after that there is a computer lab avaliable for free. The only e-mail site that wasn‘t locked out that I could find was www.canada.com, you cannot use hotmail from there. Great computers though, you will be using them for assignments during BOTC (the new army?). There are pay internet machines at the Subway and in the Green sector, but they‘re dial-up and slow, but you can access anything you want.


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## Zoomie

You can take leave whenever you like, so long as your instructor approves it conditionally.  There is a block leave period during the summer, and periodically throughout the year.
Don‘t count on internet access during BOTC, but anything goes while on 2nd Language trng.  You get your own private room at St-Jean.  I put in a phone line and used my personal computer to access the net via dial-up.  The 8 months of language school can be best described as going back to University.  All the freedoms of civi-life, you just have to wear a uniform.  Every other weekend, I drove back to see my fiance in Toronto. Not too bad of a drive, especially when you can get a carload of people to split gas and driving time with.


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## Jug

So Zoomie...you definatly are more functional in french then. Can you give me some kind of quatifier of how much you improoved over the course. I want to be able to speak french, but the last thing I want to look forward to is conjegating(sp) verbs for 8 hours a day over 8 months.


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## Zoomie

It all depends on your Basic level of french.  If it is already at a speaking ability, you‘ll be jabbering in french more than conjugating verbes.  If you can‘t speak a word, then you have to start with the basics.


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## Jug

Je suis, tu es, Il est, elle est....ohhhh boy...getting flashbacks of gradeschool. Escuse me while I go into a corner to rock myself and suck my thumb.


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## ProPatria05

I‘m trying to get a sense of how difficult it is to get an exemption from Second Language Training following BOTP at St. Jean.

I am especially interested in hearing from anglophone-types, who have a functional knowledge of French (but aren‘t really fully bilingual). However, any knowledgable comments will be appreciated.

For those that have gone through this, were you able to pass the test without having take 2nd language training? If you didn‘t, how difficult is the test, and how much 2nd language training did you have to take?


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## stivic923

Why are u wanting to try to get out of the second language training anyways?


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## Zoomie

Murph, the test is not easy...
If you are going into thinking, well I took my OAC in french and I can ask for directions, it isn‘t enough.  In order to pass the oral interaction portion of the test you must be able to effectively communicate over a telephone with the testor.  He/she will start the interview with basic questions about yourself (ie name, rank, etc).  The he will ask you to describe in full detail whatever he thinks is interesting about your past.  In my case, I had to describe (in detail) the role and tasks that an armoured recce squadron would be assigned in the field.  If you don‘t have a military background, they will ask you about your last job or your time at school.  During this interview, you will be expected to use advanced speech (ie not all past-tense or present-tense)  You cannot stumble over your words, cannot use fr-english, and cannot limit yourself to short 4 word answers.  Use of subjunctive conjugation is well sought after, if you can throw in some advanced conjugations, it will only empower your final product.

The point I am trying to leave you with, unless you have grown up speaking french in your household, or are currently speaking french to someone right now as you read this post, the chances of passing the test first time, might be low.  If you dream in french, which you will after 30 weeks of school, you know you are ready.


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## ProPatria05

Mike78 - I am going in as a DEO. If I can bring myself up to the required level of bilingualism prior to going to BOTP, it means that I will be able to get to MOC training faster, and begin doing the job faster. It also means a 6 months less up-front time that I‘m away from my wife and 2 kids. I‘m not trying to avoid being proficient in French, I‘m simply hoping that through self-study I can achieve on my own what I will otherwise have to do in St. Jean.

Zoomie - thanks for the info. It was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I‘m not going in with any illusions that the test won‘t be difficult. My French was good when I finished high school, but had gotten rusty. I have been doing a lot of work on it lately, particularly through a home-study book (with exercises), by listening to French radio, and by speaking it every opportunity I get. We‘ll see how it goes - if I have to take the training, so be it, since the end goal is proficiency. One other question - do you have to go the full 30 or 33 weeks, even if you "get it" after 10 or 15 weeks?


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## griffon

Murph
Prior to commencing the slt course, you will be tested (oral, written, comprehension) and if you are not deemed exempt, you will be placed into a class that is working at your current level.    You can certainly request to take your testing once you feel comfortable that you can pass the test.  In order for your request to approved, your teacher and their superior must agree.  From what I recall, those who put in such a request often met with pessimism and discouragement.(mind you there was a contract dispute when I was there, so they tried to keep as many students as possible).   However, some requests were approved and the students passed.   And they did leave early.
So, after my small trek down memory lane.....the answer is `yes`, I have seen it happen.
Best of luck to you!!


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## Illucigen

The Military uses (for Officers, and other positions deemed bilingual required) the Public Service of Canada‘s Bilingual tests.

You must score a BBB/BBB on the tests To be considered "Functionally Bilingual" and exempt from second language training. Keep in mind that the lower your exemption rating, the sooner you must retake the test, and if you fail it then, you will still have to do SLT again. Each letter represents a part of the test (oral, written, reading). 

An / = not taken
An X = Unilingual - (Ie you show no or very little comprehension.
An A = Partially Bilingual - you are not able to carry on conversations or construct well-defined sentences on a constant basis.
A "B" = Functional. All you need in the forces.
A "C" = Fluent.
A "E" = Exempt from career testing (you never will be tested again by the government)
A "P" = Translator/SME (subject matter expert)

You will not be tested for your maternal language, unless you are in a trade which requires "P". Very unlikely, dont think it happens in the forces.

Anyway, the oral is done over the telephone with an evaluator in Ottawa. Basic 10 minute conversation where you are assessed in your way to improvise a conversaton in the second language.

The written and reading are the famous "fill in the circle" government multiple-choice tests.. which can be quite hard.

GIve it a shot.. I know some people who passed who dont speak nearly at all well, and some people who are quite good who failed...


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## Marauder

Out of curiosity, are there any other NATO armies that require their officers be fluent in two languages to be considered basically trained? I know American SF officer candidates must become fluent in a 2d language associated with the regional affiliation of the group they are headed to, but that‘s another ballgame.
Again, just curious.


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## Illucigen

Dunno, Britain doesnt even require a university degree for its officers...

I do know USSF do require AT LEAST one other language... and I believe many eastern bloc forces are trying for this.. but as a requirement? I dont htink so..


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## John Nayduk

http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030611.wbiling0611/BNStory/National/  

Ottawa — The Canadian Forces have fallen well short in efforts to promote bilingualism but that‘s going to change, Defence Minister John McCallum said Tuesday. 
He said attitudes are going to have to change or people will lose out on promotions and pay raises. 
Only 43 per cent of military positions that are supposed to be bilingual are actually filled by bilingual personnel, the minister told the Commons official languages committee. 
Only 40 per cent of senior military officers can handle both English and French, Mr. McCallum added. 
"This is clearly not acceptable," he said. 
A decade after the government trumpeted plans to make bilingualism a watchword in public service, the military remains a bastion of unilingual anglophones. 
In contrast, 100 of the 111 senior civilian executives in Defence are fully bilingual and the others are in language training. 
And 85 per cent of civilian bilingual positions are filled by bilingual personnel. 
Mr. McCallum said a bilingualism level of 40 per cent among uniformed personnel is unacceptable and admitted that overall, the military has had "a rather poor level of performance," on bilingualism. 
Benoit Sauvageu of the Bloc Quebecois said he‘s disappointed with "the utter failure of official languages in the armed forces." 
Mr. McCallum said steps are being taken to remedy the problem. 
A new strategic plan, signed by Gen. Ray Henault, the chief of the defence staff, just hours before the minister‘s appearance at the committee, sets out new goals for the military and includes penalties for those who miss the mark. 
Officers who fail to meet bilingual standards will lose promotions and raises, the minister said. 
The new plan says the number of bilingual people in designated bilingual positions will be increased by five per cent each year. 
Now, only 45 per cent of those promoted to the rank of colonel are bilingual, but Mr. McCallum said that will rise to 50 per cent next year, 60 per cent the year after and to 70 per cent the following year. 
Mr. McCallum said after the committee meeting that the military failed on bilingualism for a number of reasons. 
"The Canadian Forces are subject to a number of challenges, resource constraints, operational deployments," he said. 
"I‘m not sure certain people may have an attitude that doesn‘t put this at the top of the agenda. That‘s possible." 
He said the new language policy, approved by the top brass, will demonstrate that the institution understands the problem. 
"Ministers come and ministers go," he said. "But a long-term policy such as official languages in the Canadian Forces has to be institutionalized and that has happened." 
Mr. McCallum said he can‘t impose a 100 per cent bilingualism requirement on a military that is already overworked and overstressed from repeated overseas deployments. 
"There are other factors at work in the Canadian Forces," he said. "You cannot immediately shift from 40 per cent to 100 per cent, or even over three years, without causing great stresses and strains on the system. 
"People need time to learn languages." 
I guess it won’t matter that the person is a great leader, if he or she isn’t bilingual, they passed up for promotion. 
--------------------------------------------------
Personally, I would rather have a great leader than a language expert calling the shots.


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## RKC73

In a word, PATHETIC.  I am glad to see that the leadership of the Army has it‘s priorities in order.  Clearly the ability to speak French is the benchmark for leadership.  If the civil service has a high precentage then the Army should too - this is the type of logic that has kept the Army circling the toilet for the last 10yrs.  For them to then have the gall to blame it on lack of "motivation" is even more sickening - I want to puke!  The number of mates I know who have requested language trg and have been told - "there‘s no time"; "we need you here right now"; "maybe next year", or my favourite - "we‘ll give you a month long course", could fill a company - and that‘s just people I know.  Last time I checked it took more than a month to comprehensively learn a language.  How can you hold back someone from promotion when they have had minimal training for the requirement you are judging them on?  Not to mention that NATO works in English - that‘s right folks, the same language every Army in the world operates in during joint or coalition operations.  Ofcourse the fact that we have one French-Canadian Brigade - where not everyone speaks English either (for the same reasons that many don‘t speak French - they are busy soldiering) doesn‘t dawn on the marble-heads in charge.  I‘m not anti-French, I‘m anti- stupidity and there many in the government and NDHQ who couldn‘t coordinate their own sleep.  Certainly at the top brass level, there is a need for bilingual ability - full stop.  My fear, however, is that good leaders, will be passed over because they never got the training they should have because they were on operations, teaching courses, in Battalions and not polishing a seat with their ***  in an office somewhere reading Proust.  God forbid if this affects the NCO corps as well.  I‘ll end this rant with an anecdote of the efficient way the Army spends its money:  When I went through BOTC - a fat lazy jack c*&% who failed that pathetic course, not once, but twice, finally passed on his third attempt.  This future leader of men, who was destined for the Infantry School as a candidate, wasn‘t sent straight to the school for the next Phase 2, no - the brainiacs in charge obviously saw the potential in our little Rommel and loaded him on a year long French course!! The same course that people who actually passed all their training were refused.  Fast forward a year, I‘m at the school on Adv Recce, and this 270lb blob is now on Phase 2.  He lasted two weeks  - gee, I didn‘t see that coming!!!.  Instead of releasing this prize, they offered him another trade - because as we all know the soldiers in other trades don‘t deserve the same quality of leadership that infanteers do.  He‘s probably off somewhere standing in front of some poor group of tradesmen embarrassing their corp as I write this.  But hey, at least he‘s got French.

Duty First!


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## Armymedic

RKC,
I just have one word to say in response to your post....

BULLSEYE!!!

When can you get elected and become MND.


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## Korus

I don‘t know if he Qualifies.. He sounds Pro military..


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## Jungle

I work in a bilingual unit. There are bilingual Anglophones, those who don‘t wait for the military to learn French. They go out and get the courses, then get the CF to pay for it. Some of them are actually very good. BUT, strangely, they rarely end up working in French. The opposite is very frequent: it is OK for a Franco from the Saguenay to work in English, but not for a Montreal-born Anglo to do so in French. The problem is, most Francos learn English on the job, not always realising the full meaning of the words they use, and end up getting warnings from the CofC or worse: a Harassment complaint !!! It‘s easy to whine when you have never experienced this kind of situation. Things are much easier when you ALWAYS work in your first (or only) language. Those who made the effort, who went the extra mile, will get the credit. YOU SNOOZE, YOU LOSE !!!


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## shado_wolf

When you are a member of the CF are you able to courses that you want.   Specifically I am interested in learning languages.   Are there courses in place to teach them and can anyone go?

Thanks.


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## OLD SCHOOL

French in Quebec.
Advanced training in Monterey California at the U.S school.
Only training as required for the duties you will perform in the CF.
They will not train you in 27 languages to be a spy later.
Good question though as languages are in demand.
Good luck.


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## MG34

Most bases now have their own lang. schools so there is no need to go to Que for training.


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## shado_wolf

So that people don‘t think I am some kind of wannabe it isn‘t to be a spy later in life.  Although that would be kinda cool.    

I have always just been in awe of those that speak numerous languages.

Preferably I‘ld like to refresh/improve my german and french, learn an asian language, and something slavic.

Thanks all,
Dylan


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## Danjanou

As Old School pointed out extra languages can be a nice thing to have especially with deployments etc.

If you‘re still in school check out if they offer anything besides French where you attend? Post secondary schools usually offer more choices 
(my universtity offered German, Russian and Spanish aside from French)

There are various community agencies, night schools etc that you can grab the basics from in a few months and at a reasonable price. You won‘t be fluent but it‘s a start. Like any skill, some people have the aptitude to pick up languages quickly, others don‘t.

The best way to really learn is to travel but that might not be an option. Nothing really improves your skills better than being in a foreign country and realising that proably no one around for quite some distance speaks English.

BTW, the basic requirements for entry into CSIS are a University degree, and a second language (usually French).


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## Yard Ape

Bilingualism bolsters brain
CP
2004-07-26 
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/Today/2004/07/26/557084.html

TORONTO -- The federal government says bilingualism helps hold the country together, and a study says it may do the same for your aging brain. The study, headed by York University psychologist Ellen Bialystok, finds being bilingual helps prevent people from losing their "mental edge" as they age. 

"Being bilingual is like going to a brain gym," says Bialystok, whose research is published in the American Psychological Association's journal, Psychology and Aging. 

"It's like exercise for those frontal regions (of the brain) because being bilingual means you have to use them a lot more." 

The frontal lobe controls the brain's "executive functions," processes that allow one to plan, stay focused and avoid distractions. 

Handling one language is a big task for the executive functions, Bialystok says, but juggling two languages is even more work. In fact, speaking a second language actually creates physical changes in the brain by increasing blood and oxygen flow. 

"If you're bilingual -- really, fluently bilingual -- your brain presents you with two options," she says. "Both language possibilities are there, and they are active and they are waiting to be chosen. 

"So being bilingual means that every day, every time you use language, you've got to use those executive processes to make sure that whatever you're going to say next is coming out in the right language, and you're not getting misled by using the wrong language." 

Over time, these mental gymnastics protect the brain by hindering the natural slowdown of the executive processes that occurs with age. 

To prove this point, York researchers tested the cognitive function of 104 adults aged 30 to 59, and 50 adults aged 60 to 88. Half of the participants in each age group were monolingual, the other half bilingual. 

The monolinguals were English-only speakers, but there were three types of lifelong bilinguals: English-Tamil, English-French and English-Cantonese. All subjects had similar education and income levels. 

The experiment, called the Simon Task, measures a subject's reaction time when completing a simple task -- such as correctly identifying where a coloured square appears on a computer screen -- when presented with two competing options. 

Bilinguals were faster on the test than monolinguals in each age group, says Bialystok. 

Additionally, the study found that while monolinguals and bilinguals start slowing down at about the same age, around 60, monolinguals experienced a faster rate of mental decline. 

"So what we found is that if you're bilingual, that normal slowdown is far less rapid, far less dramatic," Bialystok said, noting that natural aging is different from dementia and Alzheimer's disease. 

These "serendipitous" findings are good news for Canada, she says, critiquing arguments for assimilation. 

"Immigrants all come with this gift and we shouldn't try to stamp the languages out of them and out of their children." 

According to data from the 2001 census, about 17.7 per cent of Canadians identify themselves as bilingual, the largest proportion at any time in Canadian history. 

However, while 43.3 per cent of francophones could speak both official languages, only nine per cent of anglophones could do the same -- a glaring disparity that's persisted since Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau introduced the Official Languages Act in 1968. 

In fact, bickering over bilingualism continues in political quarters with Conservative Leader Stephen Harper -- who once called bilingualism "the god that failed" -- reigniting the debate during the federal election campaign when a media leak suggested the Tories would cut the level of French services on Air Canada. 

But Allan Smith, a history professor at the University of British Columbia, says resistance to bilingualism is not necessarily rooted in malice. 

He says the issue has lost its "political edge" with the passing of key personalities such as Trudeau and the cooling of separatist tensions in Quebec. Others, like Harper, just don't consider it "practical." 

"It's not like Europe, where you are tripping over people who speak a different language all the time."


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## Lexi

Yeah I heard about that on some radio show..

Pretty insteresting stuff, if only they made us learn French all through highschool...


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## ags281

Lexi said:
			
		

> Pretty insteresting stuff, if only they made us learn French all through highschool...



I theoretically "learned" French from grade 1 through 12. I say "learned" because obviously I didn't learn much since I still suck at it. Never really applied myself in it - just went through the motions - and now I have nothing to show for all that time in class. However, a couple years back I had a course in St. Jean, and I picked up more French there than I did in my entire year of grade 12.

I still can't speak French to save my life, but now I'm actually interested in learning (nothing makes you wish you had paid attention in French class more than meeting a girl so attractive it almost hurts to look at her and trying to carry on a conversation with her when she knows as little English as you do French ).


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## Fruss

Wouhoooo!!!  In your face suckerrrrrs!!!   :dontpanic:

Sorry, it was stronger than me!!  

If you want to learn french, the best place is out of Montreal..  where you won't have the choice of speaking english..  that's why I'm in Vancouver..  You don't speak the language, you just die!!   :

Next step, german and spanish..  and then, to an empty island where I can forget it all!!   ;D


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## rdschultz

Ok, with St. Jean being not far from Montreal, does that make it a good or bad place to learn the language?  Is it far enough away that you're immersed in french?   

I'm really looking forward to Second Language Training, as its something I've always wanted to do (learn another language, no real preference), but never had the time or required motivation to do so. 

Also, I second the motion that french throughout high school is pretty pointless.  I don't think its just a matter of not applying oneself, as I've known very motivated people (high 90s in all high school subjects) who did it throughout high school and still couldn't do much better than read the labels at a grocery store.  All it seemed to do was teach them a few key words and phrases, without any practical application of the language.  

EDIT:  Forgot to finish a sentence.  Perhaps I should concentrate on english more before I try tackling french.


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## Fruss

I don't know about St-Jean..  I guess it depends..  if you're talking about the CF base there, it might not be the best place, the city might be a good place, I've never been there..  Personnaly, I'm from Quebec City, the farthest east you go, the less english there is! except if you go more towards NB..  I can tell you that in Quebec City, except in hotels and in the old-Quebec, there's not that much english going around!!  

BTW, Quebec IS the best city in the whole province!!!  
If anyone goes there, get a dictionnary and a map, people will help you!!   8)


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## ags281

Unfortunately, I didn't get the benefits of language training in St. Jean, but I got a good preview of what to expect if I ever do get that training. 

You can survive in St. Jean with just English (SLT course syllabus notwithstanding). However, you will also be surrounded by French and will learn some whether you want to or not. If you take a little bit of initiative and start trying to operate in French, you will learn very quickly. There is great potential there so long as you make the effort.

edit: stupid spelling


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## Spr.Earl

The trouble in Canada is we teach Peresian French in school but with in Canada we have so many dialect's which have no relation to Peresian French as the language is spoken to day.
Those of us in the military know this,we have are blueberry's (french Canadian for a hillbilly)
We have Acadian French in New Brunswick as it was spoken 300 yrs ago!!

I gave up when it was forced up me!!

I speak so,so Spanish,Norwegian,Tagalog(Philippino)some German if need be and formal French which I have used at work to help Tourist's on the Ferries.

No prob's in learning a lingua but don't enforce it on me!!


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Actually Earl, we have dialects in English also. Take three guys right off the rock and try to follow thier conversation......not likely!

I still can't speak French to save my life, but now I'm actually interested in learning (nothing makes you wish you had paid attention in French class more than meeting a girl so attractive it almost hurts to look at her and trying to carry on a conversation with her when she knows as little English as you do French ).

Go for it, sometimes it works out quite well!


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## thesaurus

Lexi said:
			
		

> Yeah I heard about that on some radio show..
> 
> Pretty insteresting stuff, if only they made us learn French all through highschool...



i give you a sample how unreasonably vindictive and tantrum ladened some french separatists have been when one made a quip that even the Supreme Court Justices of France, America and Canada would intellectually appreciate. There was this man who made an argument that the British have been the most liberal, multilingual and multicultural in language immersion. I do not know if that was the right word. But the british study and propagate  swahili, urdu, farsi, punjabi, greek, tagalog, french, etc. among her diplomats and intelligence officers, government employees, laison officers including prince william and prince harry to further propagate. Somebody posted this item on a chatroom. The french policiy makers passed a law or whatever you call that ..they opened the doors to the study of four european languages presumably minus english. oh my God. what can you make out of that. Have we been dealing with irrational, vindictive quebec separatists all along!!


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Go away, troll....and take your other self with you...you know who I mean!
Bruce


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## thesaurus

Spr.Earl said:
			
		

> The trouble in Canada is we teach Peresian French in school but with in Canada we have so many dialect's which have no relation to Peresian French as the language is spoken to day.
> Those of us in the military know this,we have are blueberry's (french Canadian for a hillbilly)
> We have Acadian French in New Brunswick as it was spoken 300 yrs ago!!
> 
> I gave up when it was forced up me!!
> 
> I speak so,so Spanish,Norwegian,Tagalog(Philippino)some German if need be and formal French which I have used at work to help Tourist's on the Ferries.
> 
> No prob's in learning a lingua but don't enforce it on me!!



oh, my God that was one of the best arguments I have ever read. I felt about that too but not as articulate as you until you fed it to me. 
8 stars for you!BUT  I love the french language! sorry.


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## noreaga808

Does anybody know if french language courses are readily available to NCM's upon completion of initial MOC training? I'm asking here because the recruiting centres are closed for the holidays and DND's recruiting webpage is extremely vague about this. Also is it possible to transfer to R22eR a.k.a Vandoos once determined to have a satisfactory grasp on the language from taking such courses if available? I just feel that being immersed in an all french surrounding will accelerate my ability to be fully competent when using the language.


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## rdschultz

Take this for what its worth, but the platoon commander for my IAP/BOTP course (he's a PO1) said that he had been trying to get loaded on a french course for years, and he can't do it.  Keep in mind, his situation is a little different (being a platoon commander, and with the shortage of instructors he's a very valuable commodity).  Its certainly something worth asking at the recruiting centre, once they open back up.


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## Pencil Tech

I can speak to this with some authority as in addition to being a reservist, I am the (ACOL) official languages coordinator for western area, and run the language school at Edmonton Garrison as a DND civilian.

 It used to be automatic for NCMs but it was dropped for money reasons, and quite honestly , because a great many new NCMs were not all that enthusiastic about sitting in a classroom for the better part of a year before soldiering, when many of them were just out of school as it was. Understandable, but the downside is in the situation that exists now with Valcartier where many Log, EME and now even Armoured trades are at full strength and young Francophone ptes just off there threes are being posted to Edmonton and other bases by the hundreds, are unilingual, and the language training is not mandated. We train them as they come in, if the units will let them go, but that's another story.

Anyway, a full range of second language training is available in Edmonton, Petawawa, Kingston, and Gagetown and to varying degrees on other Land Force bases, so when you arrive at your first posting contact the BCOL (Base Coordinator Of Official Languages), find out what's available and ask for SLT through your chain of command. Of course, if you go officer you still WILL get compulsory French training in St-Jean (up to 8 months worth) right after your BOTC.


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## noreaga808

Thanks guys, I'll be sure to contact the BCOL once I get to my first posting. I'm not entering as an Officer due to not having the educational requirements so the NCM route is the way for me. From what you've seen Pencil Tech what other languages are available to learn? Pencil Tech, I was going to say that you saved me a trip down to the recruting centre but I just realized I've got to go anyhow. I got my results from my civilian doctor, he cleared me so I'm good to go now. I'm dropping off my med. test results in the new year at the recruiting centre so hopefully I get merit listed right away and get sent off to Quebec within 3 months. Hey Pencil Tech, maybe in the future I'll run into you if I get posted to the PPCLI.


----------



## Pencil Tech

Noreaga, the Canadian Forces Language School in Ottawa is the only place where languages other than the two official ones are handled. Good luck on your enrolment and training and by all means look us up if you end up with 1 or 3 PPCLI.


----------



## noreaga808

I misunderstood your earlier post Pencil, I thought you meant more then one language was available on the mentioned bases. Hopefully whichever unit I get posted to will be up for letting me get second language training. I'll definitely look you up if I end up with either 1 or 3 PPCLI and get you out of that chair since you're Chairborne. ;D I'd be bound to run into you especially since you're running the place.


----------



## Meridian

Im looking for some of the viewpoints from those here who may have become products of the SLT system, or were already functionally bilingual and that have led (either at the NCM level) or the officer level troops in the language OTHER than their maternal language.

(Ie if you are a Frenchy by birth, but learned English and then was posted to an English unit, or an English person who learned french then was posted to Valcartier or something)... 

How hard did you find it? 
Tips/tricks?


Also, what is the "interoperability" policy in the forces... I was under the impression that they wanted everyone to be bilingual so the various nets could be understood by those who need to understand...   Does "Working language = theatre/tactical language"?

Reason I ask is that Ive heard many English candidates who have gone through SLT and feek semi-comfortable ahve found themselves posted to 12 RBC or R22R or one of the other Valcartier Units...  I was just reading a diary where language (a French instructor trying to give directions to english troops) where they were not clear on his instructions...  is this a big issue?

I personally am functionally bilingual, and speak in french all the time at work, but I wouldn't claim to have all the lingo down or be french, myself...  

THnx for any comments.


----------



## J.F.

...do you have a comment on the possibility of French language training for a reserve officer in Calgary?...
Cheers, JF


----------



## Pencil Tech

Hello J.F.,

The problem you face as a reservist is that if you are on Class "A" service you have to "sign in" for everything you put your uniform to do, so is your unit going to pay you to go to French classes? On the other hand, if you are on a Class "B" contract you will have to get permission from your employing unit to be absent from work . A bigger problem in Calgary is the military demographics of the area. We have run a couple of courses at ASU Calgary over the last couple of years but there are not a lot of potential candidates among reg force pers there and so the training opportunities are a bit on the sporadic side. I suggest you contact the MFRC at the Waters Building (41 Brigade HQ) as they from time to time run evening French courses for military spouses which reservists may attend.


----------



## elminister

Hey J.F. what about Toronto? Are there any possiblities that we could get some language training?


----------



## shado_wolf

Hello Pencil Tech,

Do you know if the SLT course in Edmonton can replace the 3 1/2 months of slt that NCM's take through the Subsidised Education Plan (NCM-SEP)?  I'm in Edmonton and would rather not go to St Jean if there is an alternative, especially if there is one going throughout the summer.

Thanks,
Dylan


----------



## Pencil Tech

Hi Dylan. We ran a course for CFRs last year as a pilot "Quality of Life" alternative to St-Jean. The program has not been continued this year. Nevertheless, depending on your level of ability, we might very well be able to offer you something that could reduce the amount of time you will have to spend in St-Jean. Why don't you give me a call at the base - my local is 5712 - and my real name is Tracy Howe.


----------



## mseoptrucker

I am a Sr cpl 17 years I am English, Posted in Valcartier for 8 years now and at first it was very hard I didn't speak a word of french. i was given a 5 week  basic course and the rest I learned on my own  i can speak understand and read pretty fluently  but i can't write very well . I'm pretty much self taught.
     My opinion is its the best way to learn French, To be totally immersed in it and have to preform your duties in French.In my experience i was learning it for me and not cause i was in a class but because it was do. or be totally lost . That was a great Motivator and although I am not perfact in French after 8 years i am more then functional .And to be honnest I'm loosing my English i only hear English when i go home to N.S.


----------



## Meridian

Losing your english! Wow.....
Thnx!


----------



## honestyrules

Hi!

I'm french and i got a level 6 slt two years ago. I got E-C-C on the tests. I'm still doing some mistakes ,but buddies correct them in a friendly manner.

I think that the slt status ans results are not enough for the chain to completely thrust you 100%. I had to prove myself to my peers and supervisors. When they figure out that you understand all what they are saying, and your work is just as good as any other person ,you're clear.

I feel that my comrades treated me well. Took a bit of time to prove myself to the highers...

Keep it up!


----------



## 043

Greetings all:

I have a topic I want to discuss but it is touchy so I am putting out feelers first.........

Is being bilingual important in the Military?

Is the Canadian Military Bilingual?

Is NB the only Bilinqual province in Canada?


----------



## aesop081

Mike,

i know this tends to be a contentious issue but here's my 2 cents:

Canada is officialy a bilingual country and we have troops who only speak one language.  Even though it is, IMHO, too expensive to put all soldiers trough SLT, i think it is important for all leaders ( specialy at the senior levels) to be able to communicate with all troops. In my section in 1 CER, i had 2 brad new sappers who did not speak english, so when the o'group with the WO was over i would have to spend a goot amount of time repeating what was said to those 2 sappers.  Its a good thing for them that their section commander (me) spoke both languages.

For your second question, I'm not sure if we could consider the CF as bilingual, we have alot of divisions along linguistic lines.  Most franco troops tend to be posted in Quebec and most anglos in the rest of the country.

For the third, i would have to say that NB is the only province to be "openly" bilingual.  The province has even forced municipalities to have all by-laws in both languages.  Quebec tends to be openly hostile to english and other provinces seem to be reluctant to go all the way.

thats my $0.02


----------



## Navalsnpr

Mike Cotts said:
			
		

> Is being bilingual important in the Military?



Depends where. On the Navy Side of the house, French doesn't really assist us much, whereas the international language of the seas is English. Spanish would be a good second language working in the East Coast Navy.



			
				Mike Cotts said:
			
		

> Is the Canadian Military Bilingual?



Not really.   Though all Officers must take second language training, the majority of Jnr NCO's aren't bilingual.



			
				Mike Cotts said:
			
		

> Is NB the only Bilingual province in Canada?



Yes


----------



## 043

Now Pat,

Did those 2 sappers know English and not speak it? I know that happens at times. And did those 2 sappers not have to take English trg after recruit training?


----------



## aesop081

Mike Cotts said:
			
		

> Now Pat,
> 
> Did those 2 sappers know English and not speak it? I know that happens at times. And did those 2 sappers not have to take English trg after recruit training?



No, they knew no english whatsoever !!!! A third guy, i had forgotten about was so bad that he was eventualy posted to 5 RGC.  They were not sent to SLT after recruit school, which would be very very rare for NCMs. One of the 2 was sent by the regiment to SLT on the base, half-days. Theo other guy was so bad at english that even the base language school couldn't help him !!


----------



## 043

I like what you are saying Pat because it will add to my arguement in the near future.

You ever run into Steve Jackson in your travels? He is an old Thumperhead from years gone by


----------



## aesop081

Mike Cotts said:
			
		

> I like what you are saying Pat because it will add to my arguement in the near future.
> 
> You ever run into Steve Jackson in your travels? He is an old Thumperhead from years gone by



I havent run into Steve yet but i'll keep an eye out.

Can i ask you what future argument you are refering to ?

BTW, how are things in Pet, sometimes i miss my old trade........?


----------



## 043

For me to know and for you to find out Pat. It's a doozy let me tell you!!!! 

Things in Pet are great but the pace is very very hectic. I wouldn't give it up for the world though! I love it! How do you like your new paycheck?


----------



## aesop081

Mike, check your PMs


----------



## 043

ACK!


----------



## combat_medic

Ontario and Manitoba are also officially bilingual.

I myself went through French Immersion and am fully bilingual, and have found the skill to be virtually useless here on the left coast. My current civilian job requires a fluency in French, but any other "bilingual" position I applied for out here in Vancouver, they were usually looking for people who spoke Cantonese, Mandarian or Punjabi. French is almost non-existant here, other than on our cereal boxes.


----------



## Infanteer

Which begs the question - should Canada be a bilingual country, or should we be multilingual to reflect the many different cultures that have contributed to the Canadian dialogue?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

...nooooo....not again.......can feel the pull.....must resist.......I'll get you for this Infanteer.....


----------



## Infanteer

S_Baker said:
			
		

> I like the concept of being bilingual, I am not sure that being multilingual is good for a country.   Creates too much division.



It seems the trouble, as Combat Medic pointed out, is that bilingualism seems to create division as well.   Theoretically, bilingual should mean that all citizens are capable of speaking both languages (meaning that it shouldn't matter what language ths sign is written in because we could read it either way) - but it appears that bilingualism in Canada for the most part is either/or or even neither (ie: Cantonese with little English).

Tricky questions when trying to bind the _body politic_ with a common approach to communication....


----------



## RatCatcher

I am a MCpl recently posted to Valcartier as a PMed Tech, and am almost fluently billingual.  although I am not in a leadership role (PMed base rank is MCpl), I have had to work with the militia on exercise (in Mississippi) where almost none of the Medics spoke english. During one incident (no details no pack drill) I had to take a younger member aside to reassure her of what was going on with a friend. It was hard in my second language but I find if you take your time your message will get across... as well I tought the M72 during MLOC... that was an experience due to the fact that a) I have never tought weapons in french and b) I know the terms only in english.  I probably made up a few new terms...lol. 

The point I am making is take your time expressing yourself and the message will get across.... and use diagrams.


----------



## shado_wolf

Hello all, 

I've done a search and found some info but none that really answered my questions.  I am off to St Jean for SLT from the begining of May until Aug 12 and am curious as to what I can expect.  Is it a mon to fri 9 to 5 kinda week or is like my time in the mega for Basic, confined to base for 95% of the time?  I am planning on driving myself out so that I have a vehilcle to use since I'll be there for 3.5 months and don't want to be stuck on the base if I get time off.

As far as living arangements go, does anyone know how that works.  A slight twist.  I'm reg force NCM so I don't know if they'ld be parking me with the Officers and I doubt very much that I'ld be using the same mess as the gents and ladies I'll be on course with.  Any NCM's out there gone and done the course at St Jean?

Thanks and sorry if it's been discussed to death.

Dylan


----------



## bgc_fan

shado_wolf said:
			
		

> I've done a search and found some info but none that really answered my questions.  I am off to St Jean for SLT from the begining of May until Aug 12 and am curious as to what I can expect.  Is it a mon to fri 9 to 5 kinda week or is like my time in the mega for Basic, confined to base for 95% of



It's mon-fri 8:00 to 15:15. After that, it's free time and you can do whatever you want... preferably studying your second language.  
Also, there is a school block leave in June... weeks of the 13th and 20th.



> As far as living arangements go, does anyone know how that works.  A slight twist.  I'm reg force NCM so I don't know if they'ld be parking me with the Officers and I doubt very much that I'ld be using the same mess as the gents and ladies I'll be on course with.  Any NCM's out there gone and done the course at St Jean?



I imagine you'll be parked with the Officers for rooms (there's an NCM currently on course that I've seen around), but will probably be using the other mess.


----------



## nurse sarah

There is school block leave in June? I'm supposed to start SLT on the 12th of June. Is the leave just for the staff?


----------



## bgc_fan

nurse sarah said:
			
		

> There is school block leave in June? I'm supposed to start SLT on the 12th of June. Is the leave just for the staff?



Well, we were told that the students had to burn 2 weeks of leave starting the 13th of June. My understanding was that the school was essentially closed for those two weeks. I'm kind of surprised that you would be starting on the 12th given the circumstances.


----------



## shado_wolf

Thanks for the reply.  Hmm, that block leave has me wondering what's goin on.  I'm on block leave from Aug 12 until begining of Sept (when my SLT ends until I go back to school).  I wonder if they'ld be putting me on PAT over the two weeks in June or if they'll burn up more of my leave for that period.  I know last summer they wanted me to burn at least 14 or 15 days of my leave over the summer but that'll only cover about 3 weeks.

Thanks,
Dylan


----------



## Inch

You won't be on PAT, the block leave is probably for the pers on the 8 month course they give to Officers after BOTC. There will be instructors there during that time, they hire a whole bunch of sessional instructors for the summer serials. 

You will be learning French during that time, don't worry about that.


----------



## bgc_fan

Inch said:
			
		

> You won't be on PAT, the block leave is probably for the pers on the 8 month course they give to Officers after BOTC. There will be instructors there during that time, they hire a whole bunch of sessional instructors for the summer serials.



I guess that would probably be the case. I did forget about the fact that with the new session coming in, that things might be different for them.


----------



## Gill557

I think the block leave is only for the people that have been there since Jan, meaning the 2Lt.s who were commissioned in Dec. and those that are going to be commissioned in April.  The rest, those summer only officers, won't be getting the leave, at least that's what I've heard.


----------



## nurse sarah

I was wondering if anybody knows if SLT is like basic, like you have to say yes Sgt or MCpl or whatever or is it more like when your on base, you say sir or maam but basically talk 'normally' with people? I was just thinking about this because someone told me you don't but i seem to remember a guy I knew get in trouble for not coming to attention to speak to a Sgt working at the green desk on the way out for a weekend...


----------



## Inch

nurse sarah said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anybody knows if SLT is like basic, like you have to say yes Sgt or MCpl or whatever or is it more like when your on base, you say sir or maam but basically talk 'normally' with people? I was just thinking about this because someone told me you don't but i seem to remember a guy I knew get in trouble for not coming to attention to speak to a Sgt working at the green desk on the way out for a weekend...



Once you're done BOTC, you're commissioned (if you're DEO) and they will be calling you sir or ma'am with a proper salute. If you're ROTP and still an OCdt, I'd recommend staying away from the Green Sector since there isn't a whole lot to differentiate between a BOTC candidate and an ROTP OCdt and that would mean random strips torn off you. In my 9 months of language training, I never once went to the Green Sector other than to go to the dentist and the gym.

As far as talking to them, use their rank and don't talk to them like your buddy. Be professional and you won't get any grief.


----------



## nurse sarah

What about signing in and out on the weekend? You don't have to do that on SLT or there's somewhere else to do it?(not the green desk?)


----------



## Inch

nurse sarah said:
			
		

> What about signing in and out on the weekend? You don't have to do that on SLT or there's somewhere else to do it?(not the green desk?)



Unless it's changed, you're an officer and you're on your own.

When I was there, we had no curfew and no supervision after working hours or on weekends.


----------



## nurse sarah

awesome, thanks a lot


----------



## bgc_fan

Inch said:
			
		

> When I was there, we had no curfew and no supervision after working hours or on weekends.



I don't know if it's a real change, but we are supposed to sign out if we're leaving the base on weekends. Just a simple binder where you enter your contact info (address, phone number) in case someone needs to get in touch with you.


----------



## Inch

bgc_fan said:
			
		

> I don't know if it's a real change, but we are supposed to sign out if we're leaving the base on weekends. Just a simple binder where you enter your contact info (address, phone number) in case someone needs to get in touch with you.



I remember that book, I don't think I ever signed it. I don't recall it being enforced at all and besides that, what number would you give them? I didn't have a cell so they couldn't have gotten a hold of me if they wanted to.


----------



## bgc_fan

Inch said:
			
		

> I remember that book, I don't think I ever signed it. I don't recall it being enforced at all and besides that, what number would you give them? I didn't have a cell so they couldn't have gotten a hold of me if they wanted to.



I doubt it's being enforced, but as for number, well, I imagine some did what they did for BOTC and write in some hotel number if that's where they're going. Since I visit my family, well, that's the number I used. I doubt that anyone ever uses the binder to find where others are... sort of like being the duty student.


----------



## Gunner

Don't develop a relationship with anyone who has spent time in Borden!


----------



## kincanucks

To learn French?


----------



## Torlyn

Especially 31 year old 5 foot blondes with short hair...  

T


----------



## Gill557

They expect you to sign the book, but its not really enforced.  If you sign a CF-100 you don't have to at all.

As for inspections, there aren't any formal ones.  The Sgt. Major or either the Sgt. or the WO may go up just to make sure you're not living like a pig.

Oh yeah and to those of you going into the Combat Arms, as well as Army Log, Army Sigs and MP, you'll be in Bravo Coy.  We do things during the week, rucksack marches and stuff.  So don't try to get out of it.


----------



## shado_wolf

Glad to see I am not the only one wondering what to expect and fearing "life like basic" for 4 months...

Another question, what uniform is worn while on slt?  Work dress, "nice guy suit" or combats?  Thanks.

Dylan

PS

Any other NCM's slated for the may to aug trip to learn francais?


----------



## Inch

shado_wolf said:
			
		

> Glad to see I am not the only one wondering what to expect and fearing "life like basic" for 4 months...
> 
> Another question, what uniform is worn while on slt?   Work dress, "nice guy suit" or combats?   Thanks.
> 
> Dylan
> 
> PS
> 
> Any other NCM's slated for the may to aug trip to learn francais?



It was 3B's when I was there. DEU pants, short sleeve shirt and oxfords (or ankle boots for NCMs).

I'd suggest a few extra SS shirts. I had 5 of them, I ironed them all on Sunday afternoon and then didn't have to iron anything for the rest of the week. I was there for 9 months though so for a summer serial you may not care a whole lot.


----------



## bgc_fan

shado_wolf said:
			
		

> Another question, what uniform is worn while on slt?  Work dress, "nice guy suit" or combats?  Thanks.



Well, it's your choice of work dress/combats or DEUs. On Fridays, there's an optional civilian dress with a loonie donation to United Way, collected by the class senior.


----------



## shado_wolf

bgc_fan said:
			
		

> Well, it's your choice of work dress/combats or DEUs. On Fridays, there's an optional civilian dress with a loonie donation to United Way, collected by the class senior.



Serious?  Or are you just teasing me.  I really don't want to have to maintain ankle boots day and day out if not needed.  Would be great if I could wear combats.  Was it a group decision or individual?  I am sure you would want to maintain some kind of consistancy.


----------



## bgc_fan

shado_wolf said:
			
		

> Serious?  Or are you just teasing me.  I really don't want to have to maintain ankle boots day and day out if not needed.  Would be great if I could wear combats.  Was it a group decision or individual?  I am sure you would want to maintain some kind of consistancy.



I'm serious. On the first day we did wear DEUs, but we were told that dress of the day was work dress. For the majority that means combats. Makes it easier for Wednesday's ruck march as well.  The majority wears combats, but there are those who prefer DEUs. The only stipulation about civi Fridays is no jeans and decent shirts.

Then again, maybe things might be different for the next session.


----------



## Big Foot

Wow, I hope that holds true for the summer. I'd much rather wear combats than CFs.


----------



## Gill557

I've heard they're going to keep it combats.  The Sgt. Major had to do a lot of work to get the approval so its probably not going to go away. 

As for your ankle boots, well I go in CF's once a week, just to keep them in decent shape.  Makes sure I polish them once in a while.


----------



## Infanteer

bgc_fan said:
			
		

> Well, it's your choice of work dress/combats or DEUs. On Fridays, there's an optional civilian dress with a loonie donation to United Way, collected by the class senior.



Wow, I see another aspect of Dress and Deportment has went down the crapper.  Pretty soon, we'll all bask in looking like grubby mechanics....


----------



## Armageddon

For the guys coming from RMC I wouldn't hold my breath and hope for work dress,  I am pretty sure that for all you guys you will still have to wear 3B's.  I know when I was there, a few years ago, all the DEO and ROTP candidates were able to wear work dress but we were still required to wear the 3B's......either way it is a whole lot more comfortable than the 5's and oxfords are about a 1min polish job......just my 2cents though


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

CANFORGEN 066/05 ADM(HR-MIL) 031 011818Z APR 05
CHANGES TO WEIGHTING OF CRITERIA - CF SELECTION BOARDS
UNCLASSIFIED



THE PURPOSE OF THIS MESSAGE IS TO PROVIDE ADVANCE NOTICE OF THE INTENT TO CHANGE THE WEIGHTING OF CRITERIA FOR CF SELECTION BOARDS. THESE BOARDS ARE CONVENED TO SELECT PERSONNEL FOR PROMOTIONS, CAREER COURSES (PD), EDUCATION UPGRADE, AND TERMS OF SERVICE (TOS). THE PROPOSED CHANGES WILL BE IMPLEMENTED COMMENCING WITH THE FALL 2006 SELECTION BOARDS FOR PROMOTION YEAR 2007. CHANGES WILL OCCUR IN TWO KEY AREAS: PERFORMANCE VERSUS POTENTIAL WEIGHTING AND WEIGHTING OF SECOND LANGUAGE SKILLS 


CF PERSONNEL ARE MERIT LISTED AT SELECTION BOARDS BASED ON THEIR PERFORMANCE AND POTENTIAL. IN THE PAST, THESE TWO KEY AREAS HAVE BEEN ASSIGNED A WEIGHTING FACTOR OF 60 PERCENT FOR PERFORMANCE AND 40 PERCENT FOR POTENTIAL (INCLUDING 2 OR 5 POINTS ALLOCATED TO NCMS AND OFFRS RESPECTIVELY FOR SECOND LANGUAGE ABILITY). 


THIS PRACTICE REMAINS APPROPRIATE FOR JUNIOR NCMS AND OFFRS HOWEVER, THE 60/40 WEIGHTING CRITERIA DO NOT RECOGNIZE THE INCREASED IMPORTANCE OF THE POTENTIAL FACTOR TO SELECT LEADERS FOR MORE SENIOR RESPONSIBILITIES. SENIOR OFFRS AND NCMS ARE EXPECTED TO HAVE ATTAINED HIGH LEVELS OF PROFESSIONAL SKILL AND EXPERTISE, AND MOST ARE PERFORMING AT THE EXCEEDED STANDARD TO MASTERED LEVELS. AS A RESULT, PERFORMANCE CRITERIA FOR MORE SENIOR RANK LEVELS IS NO LONGER SUFFICIENTLY DISCRIMINATING TO IDENTIFY THE MOST SUITABLE PERSONNEL FOR PROMOTION AND ADVANCED TRAINING, AND TO FILL SENIOR POSITIONS WITH OUR BEST LEADERS. CONSEQUENTLY, THE WEIGHTING CRITERIA FOR SENIOR RANK LEVELS (PROMOTION FROM SGT/PO2 TO WO/PO1 AND ABOVE AND FROM CAPT/LT(N) TO MAJ/LCDR AND ABOVE) WILL BE CHANGED TO REFLECT THE INCREASED IMPORTANCE OF POTENTIAL IN THE WEIGHTING CRITERIA. THE PRECISE WEIGHTING WILL BE COMMUNICATED AT A LATER DATE ONCE MODELLING HAS BEEN COMPLETED. 


THE WEIGHTING OF SECOND LANGUAGE ABILITY AS A COMPONENT OF POTENTIAL WILL ALSO BE REVIEWED TO RECOGNIZE THE IMPORTANCE AND OBLIGATION TO DEVELOP A BILINGUAL SENIOR LEADER CORPS. IT IS ANTICIPATED THAT FOR JUNIOR RANK LEVELS, THE WEIGHTING FOR BILINGUALISM WILL REMAIN AT CURRENT (OR SLIGHTLY REDUCED) LEVELS, HOWEVER THE WEIGHTING WILL INCREASE FOR SENIOR RANK LEVELS. THE SCORING CRITERIA FOR BILINGUALISM WILL ALSO BE ANNOUNCED AT A LATER DATE. HOWEVER CF PERSONNEL, ESPECIALLY THOSE IN A SENIOR RANK LEVELS WHO HAVE NOT YET ATTAINED THE REQUISITE BILINGUALISM PROFICIENCY LEVEL, SHOULD SEIZE THE OPPORTUNITY NOW TO IMPROVE THEIR SECOND LANGUAGE ABILITY AS THE WEIGHTING CRITERIA FOR BILINGUALISM WILL BECOME INCREASINGLY IMPORTANT FOR 2006 SELECTION BOARDS. 


ALL PERSONNEL SHOULD NOTE THAT NOTWITHSTANDING THE PROPOSED CHANGES, OUTSTANDING PERFORMANCE WILL REMAIN ESSENTIAL FOR PROGRESSION IN THE CF. CONSEQUENTLY, THERE IS NO INTENT TO CHANGE THE PER FORM HOW PERS ARE WRITTEN, THE SCORING CRITERIA WITHIN SECTIONS 4 AND 5, THE REQUIREMENT FOR PROPERLY SUBSTANTIATED NARRATIVES TO SUPPORT THE PERFORMANCE AND POTENTIAL SCORES AWARDED. 


CHANGES TO WEIGHTING CRITERIA FOR CF SELECTION BOARDS ARE NECESSARY TO DEVELOP OUR SENIOR LEADERS TO FILL INCREASINGLY DEMANDING POSITIONS. AMPLIFYING DETAILS WILL BE PROMULGATED BEFORE THE END OF FY 05/06 




  I realize Canada is a bilingual country but IMHO the need for all the CF to conform to the french language is unnecessary.All of the provinces are trying to ensure everything is in both official languages except Quebec.How is this fair?


----------



## pbi

> realize Canada is a bilingual country but IMHO the need for all the CF to conform to the french language is unnecessary.All of the provinces are trying to ensure everything is in both official languages except Quebec.How is this fair?[



That isn't really what it says. Go back and read it more closely, especially the part about weighting for junior ranks. The emphasis of the message is on senior ranks, especially more senior officers. And, anyway, there is nothing all that new about this: the officer corps has been officially working towards functional bilingualism for quite a while now: any officer who is surprised by this hasn't been paying attention. In the NCM ranks, I very much doubt we will see any real impact below CWO or maybe MWO, especially not in the Cbt A.

Cheers.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

Point taken however I dont understand why the language profile in the CF is only applicable to the french language.Are we not a diverse culture that goes to countries where say a member who speaks farsi would be an asset?There are those in the CF whos first language is neither english nor french but they arn't eligible for the extra points on the PER.Why not encourage CF members to add some diversity to the "accepted languages"?Just an idea.


----------



## Infanteer

I was under the impression that extra language abilities did count for something.  I guess I assumed wrong.


----------



## Pencil Tech

The reason is, while it would be nice if you spoke Farsi in some situations, at the senior level in the Canadian Forces you are expected to command in both official languages. I don't see why that should be a big surprise.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

And what about the junior levels?Should only those who speak french/english be rewarded with a higher PER score? I agree its important for senior officers to have the french language but there is no encouragement for CF members to learn or advance with any other language.


----------



## Scoobie Newbie

The French fellows also have to take English training as well.  As I side note I know a few French CF members who passed SAR Tech selection but couldn't speak english good enough by the time final selection was made so they were cut.


----------



## George Wallace

SHELLDRAKE!! said:
			
		

> And what about the junior levels?Should only those who speak french/english be rewarded with a higher PER score? I agree its important for senior officers to have the french language but there is no encouragement for CF members to learn or advance with any other language.



This is already in effect.   There are scores for compentency in the 'Official' Second Language abilities of those being merit listed.   The scores are not that much, but may be the tie breaker in deciding promotions and course loading at the Merit Boards in Ottawa.

Is it really fair?   Good question.   English and French are Canada's 'Official' Languages.   French is no longer the Second Language of the country, as Chinese has replaced it.   If we continue on that track, will French become a 'Dead' Language in Canada?   That is the fear of the Bloc and Separatists in Quebec.  They fear French becoming a 'Lost Language' like Latin, no longer a relevant 'Romantic Language'.

On another point; Bilingual means you speak two languages.   Only in Canada, is that 'not True'.   My wife is German, and English is her second language.   Only in Canada is she not considered Bilingual.   As was mentioned, there are many in Canada who speak other languages, some speaking several, but unless they speak both English and French, they are not considered Bilingual in Canada.   

Those who do enjoy learning French, also run into the problem that it is Parisiene French not Quebecois.   It too is a cause of consternation.   The 'Military' terms used for many things in French are not accurately translated by Civilian Translators in Ottawa.   People going on French Training and posting to units in Quebec also run into the 'Angloization' of many military terms...."Changais la Trac".

I think it is a benefit that many members of the Forces be able to speak a Second Language and it will be a benefit on Tour, but I disagree with Forced Bilingualism.   I think learning should be a volunteer and enjoyable task, not force fed.   Credit should also be given to 'Bilingualism' in languages other than English and French.   We most often require linguists and translators in languagers other than English and French while on Tour, although it is amazing to find so many people in foreign lands who speak English.

Most NATO, SEATO, NORAD, and many other Alliance Organizations use English as their "Operating Language".   The language of all Air Traffic Controllers is English.   The same can be said about many of the operations at Sea.   Most 'Computer Languages' are in English, although the French are fighting hard to have French Programming done.   English is the modern language of business these days.  It has even replaced French as the language of Diplomacy.

I do find it disconcerting that our bureaucracy figures that we MUST be Bilingual.  Being able to speak a second language has no affect on my abilities to shoot straighter.  Merit should be the only criteria for promotion.  Language abilities should remain a low priority, well below job knowledge, job performance and competency in the promotion process.  I do not like the aspect of people who are incompetent being promoted because of their Language abilities.

In the end, however, the ability to speak a second or third language is always a good goal for most these days, especially if you like to travel to distant lands for work or pleasure.   8)


----------



## GINge!

The real concern ought to be that mediocre performers (be they Anglo or Franco) who are bilingual, are being promoted ahead of outstanding performers who are unilingual. 

I'm not saying bilingual leaders are not required - I am questioning the weighting of this skill in terms of potential. We spend a lot of money, time, and effort teaching soldiers a second language, and my gut check tells me that many of them never/rarely use it. There's something fundamentally wrong with an appraisal system that awards twice as many points for being able to function in a second language than it does for holding Bachelors and Masters Degrees. Most unilingual officers would be farther ahead in their military careers if they passed on a 4-year degree in favour of learning French or English. I'm sure there are other example of skills that are more relevant than bilingualism, I just picked education as its one I am familiar with.


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## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
_I do find it disconcerting that our bureaucracy figures that we MUST be Bilingual._

MUST?....when did you learn, George?

Quote,
_Only in Canada is she not considered Bilingual._

...she is, just not in the two offical languages.

Quotes,
_Credit should also be given to 'Bilingualism' in languages other than English and French.
 Merit should be the only criteria for promotion._

...pardon? ...which one is correct?

Quote,
_Those who do enjoy learning French, also run into the problem that it is Parisiene French not Quebecois.   It too is a cause of consternation_.

...this is basicly a red herring, I challenge most people to take three people fresh off the "rock" and try to follow the conversation, what do we call that, St. Johnsainne English?    Heck, I can hardly understand two Brits talking.

Quotes,
_[1]There are scores for compentency in the 'Official' Second Language abilities of those being merit listed.   The scores are not that much, but may be the tie breaker in deciding promotions and course loading at the Merit Boards in Ottawa.
[2]Language abilities should remain a low priority, well below job knowledge, job performance and competency in the promotion process.   I do not like the aspect of people who are incompetent being promoted because of their Language abilities._

So what you are saying is both are incompetent but the one who is incompetent in two languages will get promoted?

.....its a qualification just like a degree, a course, etc.    If this grade 10 dropout can learn it at 25 years old, so can anybody.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
_There's something fundamentally wrong with an appraisal system that awards twice as many points for being able to function in a second language than it does for holding Bachelors and Masters Degrees. Most unilingual officers would be farther ahead in their military careers if they passed on a 4-year degree in favour of learning French or English_.

...maybe because it's a useful skill and a degree, .......well it looks good on the wall!


----------



## George Wallace

Gee!  Bruce!

You're no fun this early Sunday Morning.   Cross cut saw, La?   ;D


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Early Sunday ??....oh yea, it is Sunday, well to a shift worker its actually Wednesday.....Tuesday will be Friday and Friday will actually be Monday, got that?


----------



## Garry

Yo George,

..."The language of all Air Traffic Controllers is English."... Essentially correct. Go to a German Fighter Base deep inside Germany, no Civilian traffic, and all the pilots and ATC speak ONLY English. Same (as you noted) everywhere else in the world, military and civilian airports, except for one place: Quebec. All ATC services are offered in both english and french, and both languages are spoken concurrently.

This is extremely dangerous (hence the reason no one else does it).

I have found reason to speak french in the field (Germany, actually, and iirc you were there)....pretty basic stuff-"right up the middle, ready?- follow me"...and even MY rudimentary french was enough.

That wiggling feeling is the tail wagging all of you pointy end types.

Cheers-Garry


----------



## George Wallace

;D

Ah, Yes!  Eine Schizzer Biere Bitter.......You know better to get lessons on the flight over now don't you.....What are friends for; if not to be abused.... ;D


----------



## Jungle

GINge! said:
			
		

> There's something fundamentally wrong with an appraisal system that awards twice as many points for being able to function in a second language than it does for holding Bachelors and Masters Degrees. Most unilingual officers would be farther ahead in their military careers if they passed on a 4-year degree in favour of learning French or English.


Uhh... WHAT ?? What good is a degree in an operational situation ? Is it more useful than being able to communicate with everybody on your team ?? Senior Leaders find themselves working more and more in "mixed and matched" outfits during ops, and you can't see the benefits of bilingualism ??
Maybe you should look for a degree in Common Sense !!   :

Edited to fix a typo  8)


----------



## aesop081

I have posted this a while ago in another thread but when i was a section commander in edmonton, speaking both french and english came in extreamely handy when someone decided to post unilingual french QL3s to the regiment.  None of the troop's senior leadership spoke french and it made O group time very difficult. They were glad i was there i can tell you that much.  There are many languages spoken in this country but all recruits speak either french or english at the very least. it may be anoying to some but the way i see it, it was crucial for me , even at the section level, to be able to communicate with *ALL* my subordinates.  My first order of buisness was to get both soldiers to an english course in a timely manner, which was done. being able to speak to all the troops under your command is not only good for your PER...i consider it a command resposability.


----------



## SHELLDRAKE!!

How about a system that ensures at a certain rank level(ie: 6B course),senior levels must attain a language profile in french/or english in the french speakers case.But at lower rank levels, other language courses ie:german,russian should count towards PER points since those taking them are doing so to improve themselves.I have nothing against french, I took 12 years of french immersion and speak it fluently but wouldn't it be better if say the CF agreed to pay for second language training in any language and credit their PER's accordingly?The system recognizes furthering your education in other aspects.


----------



## George Wallace

SHELLDRAKE!!

Interesting thought.  It would further our linguistic skills on deployments and make learning a Second Language a 'pleasure' and less 'intimidating' as what is mandated now.  If young soldiers found it interesting to learn another language like German, Serbo-Croate, Russian or Chinese, they may find it easier to learn French or English later.  The Challenge they can set for themselves.


----------



## Infanteer

I like that as well.  There should be some way of the system recognizing soldiers who gain/possess extra abilities on their own.  If someone goes out a learns Arabic (or perhaps already knows it) they are bringing something extra to the Forces.


----------



## aesop081

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I like that as well.   There should be some way of the system recognizing soldiers who gain/possess extra abilities on their own.   If someone goes out a learns Arabic (or perhaps already knows it) they are bringing something extra to the Forces.



Agreed. It should be like any other academic upgrading or other courses for which the military gives you "brownie" points at PER time.


----------



## aesop081

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Lets be honest, the only place in Canada that an anglo REALLY needs to know French is Quebec, thats it. However, looking at where many of today's conflicts are (Middle East) would knowing Arabic, Farsi, maybye even some Oriental languages be more benficial to the CF then having everyone know French?
> 
> Maybye we should require bilingualism in that you speak English and another language (not necessarily French). This would give us a broader range of language skills and would motivate people in that they get a list of languages to choose from.



I think that you are missing the point.  I do agree that having other languages in the CF would be very beneficial, french and english alone are the working languages here at home.  I think that i demonstrated a good example earlier in this thread that speaking both english and french is not just for those of us in quebec. I was translating all orders and information from higher ups to the troops as i was the only buligual member of my troop. On my first tour in croatia, we were replaced by the R22R, and speaking french made the handover a bit moe bearable for everybody.  When we deployed for the ice storms in 97, i was driving all the big wigs around bacause i could translate for them when meeting with mayors, ministers and the like.


----------



## Infanteer

2332Piper said:
			
		

> Lets be honest, the only place in Canada that an anglo REALLY needs to know French is Quebec, thats it. However, looking at where many of today's conflicts are (Middle East) would knowing Arabic, Farsi, maybye even some Oriental languages be more benficial to the CF then having everyone know French?
> 
> Maybye we should require bilingualism in that you speak English and another language (not necessarily French). This would give us a broader range of language skills and would motivate people in that they get a list of languages to choose from.



You didn't get it the first time, so perhaps I can help.   Senior Officers (which the CANFORGEN affects) need to be bilingual in both of Canada's Official Languages (the ones mentioned in the Constitution) because they will most likely command units that legally use either language in the execution of their duties.


----------



## GINge!

Jungle said:
			
		

> Uhh... WHAT ?? What good is a degree in an operational situation ? Is it more useful than being able to communicate with everybody on your team ?? Senior Leaders find themselves working more and more in "mixed and matched" outfits during ops, and you can't see the benefits of bilingualism ??
> Maybe you should look for a degree in Common Sense !!   :



I knew the word 'degree' would throw someone for a loop. 

When you undergo higher education, it encourages critical thinking - not just remembering things like how pyridostigmine bromide bonds with acetylcholine-esterase, but how to analyze a situation and develop solutions. Higher education is but one way of developing this skill, and though my degree was not in common sense, I have still managed to use throughout my career, every day, both on operations and in garrison. 

Its not that I don't see the benefits of bilingualism, I am however questioning the importance we place on it.

The Army paid a lot of money for me to go from a unilingual 9-9-9 to my last profile of E-C-C. In 18 years, I have used it for 2 weeks during a 5e GBMC FTX and the odd expletive. C'est tout. In my opinion, the hundreds of hours spent learning this skill would have been better applied to something more relevant. 

MTCW.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
The Army paid a lot of money for me to go from a unilingual 9-9-9 to my last profile of E-C-C. In 18 years, I have used it for 2 weeks during a 5e GBMC FTX and the odd expletive. C'est tout. In my opinion, the hundreds of hours spent learning this skill would have been better applied to something more relevant. 

...so because you have never bothered to push yourself, that made it useless to all...........and what more relevant thing would you require?
Another nice frame on your wall?

....there are examples here of those who have used it, I have used it....maybe you should try a little harder?


----------



## Pieman

Does one really have to be fully bilingual to issue orders? Does it really matter of Lt. A can speak French/English better than Lt. B, when both of them can for example say "Go pick up that shovel and dig a trench" in both languages? 



> there are examples here of those who have used it, I have used it....maybe you should try a little harder?


If one has to find excuses to use a skill, then is that high of a skill level really necessary? 

I studied German in school and later learned Dutch. I will be taking French after BOTC, and I am looking forward to having the chance to learn.  I hope the training is sufficient. I am quite sure that most people will be at an advantage compared to me as they probably did some french though grade school. I would hate to see that progression in my career is hindered because I took the time and effort to learn other languages besides French.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
If one has to find excuses to use a skill, then is that high of a skill level really necessary? 


...and you have done a lot of astrophysics since St. Marys?


----------



## Pieman

Yes actually I have. I have taken contracts from a couple astrophysical research centers. On top of that, I don't have to find excuses to use these skills. Astrophysics is simply physics as applied to space. I use physics every day, applied to a variety of situations.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

...as I use French every day in my life................like I said ,just another qualification, albeit a useful one.


----------



## Pieman

I am not questioning the usefulness of knowing French or any other second language. Knowing other languages is a door to a variety of opportunities, for sure. You may use it every day in central Canada, but many people here in Alberta tell me it is hard to find the chance to speak French, and many end up loosing their French skill over time. (You snooze it, you lose it)

The point I was trying to make with regards to the weighting of the second language in the promotion scoring. Is it necessary to have such a high weighting for a skill that does not really require fluent or 'bilingual' skill level?

Wouldn't it make more sense if a sufficient condition for promotion be a certain skill level of the second language? Such that the Officer is able to communicate to the troops. Then more time can be spent on gaining other skills for their role in the Army.

Does it really matter if one Officer is totally fluent and another only sufficiently fluent when they can both communicate? 

I am not in the Army, so I don't know the amount of French I will really need to speak. Perhaps I am underestimating the importance of it. If I am, please enlighten me.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote from George Wallace,
_There are scores for compentency in the 'Official' Second Language abilities of those being merit listed.  The scores are not that much,  but may be the tie breaker in deciding promotions and course loading at the Merit Boards in Ottawa._

....and like I said before, there should be points for any language, far more than the "arts or poli sci" papers hanging on the wall.
Good leaders will still be good leaders.......actuellement, on a deja parlez de cette sujet dans un autre "thread".


----------



## Pieman

If it is true that "scores are not that much", then they certainly seem to be doing a lot of ice breaking. Some statistics Toryln pulled up for me not too long ago:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/27189.0.html


> The best I got was the language that was put down as "first official" on application, and that's 28% french, and 72% english.   (The CDN ratio is 24-76, so not too far off.   HOWEVER, according to the DND, "Representation of Francophones and Anglophones in the CF has changed little during the past 10 years, however, the proportion of French-speaking members at senior rank levels has nearly doubled in the same period".   This was written in 1996, leaving us two conclusions.   One, francophone officers are more capable than their english-speaking counterpoints, or they get promoted more because of their abilities in both languages.



So is that the wrong conclusion to draw from the statistics? Is there another factor besides language that would cause francophone Officers to be promoted more frequently?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote, 
Representation of Francophones and Anglophones in the CF has changed little during the past 10 years, however, the proportion of French-speaking members at senior rank levels has nearly doubled in the same period



 Francophone or French-speaking?      ........  Big difference, my friend.


----------



## Pieman

Ah! Very good Bruce. The discrepancy between the numbers what what people were saying was bothering me for quite some time. That clears it up and makes sense now. So it would appear my fears about having trouble with promotion vs. second language skill are unfounded. 

That's what I get for listening to a bunch of old legion members with too much beer in them


----------



## Infanteer

Should it be?   I mean a Canadian who speaks French is a Canadian who speaks French, is it not?

Another question - if I move to Quebec, do I get to be a Quebecois?

Not trying to argue with anyone, only I just think we (as Canadians) may place a little too much emphasis on where someone was born - I, like many others, am not "English" (although it was my first language) or "French" in the traditional sense; does this make me any less of a Canadian?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

What????   Have you been drinking again?

That was never implied at all, I am an Anglophone, my mother tongue. You are also an Anglophone by this"(although it was my first language)"....no less or more a Canadian. I'm failing to see how you think your linguistic shortcomings make you any less "Canadian" or if anyone implied that.


----------



## Infanteer

No, no Bruce, I wasn't targeting what you said, I was only putting my thoughts on how we relate Language and being Canadian.

If I was born in BC and was raised in a French household, would I be a Francophone or a French Speaking Canadian?   Is there something about the mythical line that surrounds the _Belle Province_ that changes someone's status based upon what their mother tongue is?

Take the Quebec Language Law.   Say I was a French Speaking Family from B.C. who moved to Quebec and I wanted to put my kid in English Immersion.   Would I be classified as a Francophone and thus require cultural protection (and thus limited to a French school) because French is the household tongue, even if I had no heritage in the St Lawrence River Valley?

If Canadians are boxed into "Anglophone" or "Francophone" descriptions, then what are they if they were raised in a Korean or a Polish household?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
_If I was born in BC and was raised in a French household, would I be a Francophone or a French Speaking Canadian? _ 

...Francophone, we speak French in the house[mostly] so even though my family background is about as "English" as it gets[Monkhouse?] I consider my kids to be Francophones.

Quote,
_If Canadians are boxed into "Anglophone" or "Francophone" descriptions, then what are they if they were raised in a Korean or a Polish household?_

...if someone needed to "box" someone in, then I would say the first "official" language that they learn.

Bottom line to me is "Canadian".


----------



## aesop081

Infanteer said:
			
		

> If Canadians are boxed into "Anglophone" or "Francophone" descriptions, then what are they if they were raised in a Korean or a Polish household?



Lucky to be here just like the rest of us   ;D

I'm just curious, alot of people replying to this thread speak multiple kanguages as it is, why is there such animosity against learning french as well ?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
Take the Quebec Language Law.   Say I was a French Speaking Family from B.C. who moved to Quebec and I wanted to put my kid in English Immersion.   Would I be classified as a Francophone and thus require cultural protection (and thus limited to a French school) because French is the household tongue, even if I had no heritage in the St Lawrence River Valley?


Sorry, forgot this,[shift change, want to go home and log on ;D],    don't get me started on the Quebec language law, even though I understand trying to save your culture, it should not be at the expense of peoples rights and freedoms.

...and I've said it before, do not confuse what the govt. does to what the people want, if you disagree with that then by the same anology you would approve of funneling taxpayers money into a political party. :-[


----------



## Infanteer

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...Francophone, we speak French in the house[mostly] so even though my family background is about as "English" as it gets[Monkhouse?] I consider my kids to be Francophones.



Is French their first language?   Even if it was, is their a difference between the Monkhouse household and the _Bouchard_ household in Quebec (I would argue that the PQ would say so)?

I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the differences between _Francophone_ and _French-Speaking_. _Quebecois_ and _Resident of the Province of Quebec_ and how these definitions pertain to the Law in Canada - the definitions seem to be important (for some reason).



> Bottom line to me is "Canadian".



Me too, as you can see I'm just having trouble figuring out what that is right now.... ;D



			
				aesop081 said:
			
		

> I'm just curious, alot of people replying to this thread speak multiple kanguages as it is, why is there such animosity against learning french as well ?



I don't think it's animosity at the French language per se, but rather the animosity is directed towards the either/or mentality the bilingualism has created.   Sure, French speaking Canadians are now more capable of taking part in the public sphere, but we've created a social box where a Canadian can put themselves in the either/or catagory and basically not have to communicate with others (in essence, this is why the CANFORGEN seems like a good idea, it forces us to better ourselves as Canadian citizens - I feel that all soldiers should go to SLT).   English speaking Canadians who can't talk to French speaking Canadians are just as much of a problem as the reverse situation.

The way I see it, there are two alternatives:

1.   Perhaps Canada would be better served by a "Common Tongue" in which all Canadians would learn (as opposed to their "mother tongue" which they speak in the house).   As it stands, English seems to be the candidate for obvious reasons that most of Canada will have it as a primary tongue and Francophones will learn it anyways - but we can use Latin or Cantonese for all I care.   What I'm reaching for is the principle that a country should be able to understand eachother, regardless of the situation; I'm not yanking on any historical arguments (who was here first, who is important politically, yadayadayada).   People are free to use what they want in private lives, but all Canadians from whatever background (Cree, Quebecois, Danish, Chinese, Iranian) will be drawn together by a single common and united feature.

2.   On the flipside, if going with one tongue is too divisive, then I fully support Bilingualism in all schools (English to the French, French to the English) - as we will no longer have to worry about printing forms in both languages, having French/English military units, or signage; any Canadian should be able to pick either up and figure it out.   Every Canadian, regardless of heritage, should be able to speak both English and French.   Sure, some may argue that they have no need to learn it in Alberta, but perhaps something like this would do wonders in getting the French language out of Fortress Quebec and into mainstream Canadian (meaning across Canada) culture where it should be if we are to be a truely bilingual nation.

As for what people want to speak in their household, I don't care - they can learn Klingon for all I care.   But I want all Canadians to be able to deal with eachother when they leave the house.   Hey, perhaps Klingon is the logical choice for a "Common Tongue" - no political baggage.... :dontpanic:



			
				Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Sorry, forgot this,[shift change, want to go home and log on ;D],     don't get me started on the Quebec language law, even though I understand trying to save your culture, it should not be at the expense of peoples rights and freedoms.



Agree.

Straitjacketing citizens to "protect culture" doesn't seem too constructive.   Culture adapts and evolves and if Canada (any part) looks different then it did in the 17th century, well, things change.   Saying that a Francophone (including Mr Monkhouse   ) needs a heavy-handed legislation to protect their culture is a smack in the face of the average joe who lives his private life how he chooses.



> ...and I've said it before, do not confuse what the govt. does to what the people want, if you disagree with that then by the same anology you would approve of funneling taxpayers money into a political party. :-[



 ???


----------



## Infanteer

PS: I convinced domestic 9er to put her child into French Immersion and the rest will follow, so there.


----------



## Acorn

Languages other than the two official ones ARE taken into account for potential. There is no hard formula as there is with the officials though. Understandable.

The interesting thing is that it appears that Potential will have greater weight for promotion than the current 60/40 tech skill/potential ratio. Which seems to make sense to me, as does the idea of increasing requirements for second official language ability with increasing rank.

Acorn


----------



## honestyrules

I'm a quebecer myself, and i agree with Bruce on that law. This is a bad thing. I"m glad that i joined the army ,so now it doesn't apply to me anymore. I've been able to put my little one in a 100% english school. She'll be glad i did when she'll grow up....


----------



## MdB

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm failing to see how you think your linguistic shortcomings make you any less "Canadian" or if anyone implied that.



This is a funny one!! ;D We used to say here in Quebec that Chretien wasn't proficient in english nor french!! Hehe, this is shortcomings...



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> No, no Bruce, I wasn't targeting what you said, I was only putting my thoughts on how we relate Language and being Canadian.
> 
> If I was born in BC and was raised in a French household, would I be a Francophone or a French Speaking Canadian?   Is there something about the mythical line that surrounds the _Belle Province_ that changes someone's status based upon what their mother tongue is?



Coming from Quebec, I relate 'extensively' to my province since there's a language diffence moreover. So you're born in Alberta, Albertan, Ontario, Ontarian, and so on...

I think for the language, you're mother tongue (and household when you were raised) indicates the roots, be it english, french, german, etc.   But if you can't relate to it anymore, nor speak, forget it, you're were 'insert tongue-one...' and not anymore. It's not based on the province you come from. You were born in Alberta and learn french as mother tongue and speaks very well english (of course), you're Franco-Albertan if you use the language. If you can relate to the language as a certain identity, then why would it be more complicated than that?

Remember Chantal Hébert? She's colomnist at the _Star_. Lot of people think she's québécoise. But she's born in Ontario and is Franco-Ontarian, only her parents are from Quebec. Now she lives in Québec, wanted to know her roots, but always related to herself as Franco-Ontarian.



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> 2.   On the flipside, if going with one tongue is too divisive, then I fully support Bilingualism in all schools (English to the French, French to the English) - as we will no longer have to worry about printing forms in both languages, having French/English military units, or signage; any Canadian should be able to pick either up and figure it out.



Here I disagree. You can't eliminate a language from forms or any other official communications. I would mean to exclude this language. Maybe I don't understand the point. As far as I know, Francophones are more bilingual (in the proportion of 47%) than Englos (9% says themselves as bilingual), which is normal anyway. Francophones of North America are in an ocean of Englos... really, not that much of a challenge to learn it. The thing is that it's important for a language health to keep it 'live', in all sorts of communication. You can't say you're a whatever-speaker if you don't use the language. Just a litteral reality.



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> Every Canadian, regardless of heritage, should be able to speak both English and French.   Sure, some may argue that they have no need to learn it in Alberta, but perhaps something like this would do wonders in getting the French language out of Fortress Quebec and into mainstream Canadian (meaning across Canada) culture where it should be if we are to be a truely bilingual nation.



This is good!! That would be so much for me. It doesn't hinder any nationalism based on language, rather the other way around, it promotes it and would makes Canada stronger as its people understand what the other says and how he tends to think, would be so a great drive for unity and cohesion of Canada.



			
				delavan said:
			
		

> I'm a quebecer myself, and i agree with Bruce on that law. This is a bad thing. I"m glad that i joined the army ,so now it doesn't apply to me anymore. I've been able to put my little one in a 100% english school. She'll be glad i did when she'll grow up....



Even though I'm not bilingual myself, I can do really more than communicate in English and I didn't need any 100% english school to achieve that. Your results will be so much good as the effort you put in.

Cheers all,

Edited for quote problems.


----------



## GINge!

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Quote,
> ...so because you have never bothered to push yourself, that made it useless to all...........and what more relevant thing would you require?
> Another nice frame on your wall?
> 
> ....there are examples here of those who have used it, I have used it....maybe you should try a little harder?



Read what I said again. My apologies if you are unfamiliar with the SL scoring system. To reiterate, I pushed myself fairly hard to go from speaking no French whatsoever to become almost fluent. Admittedly, I do not go looking for reasons to converse French just to demonstrate my skills and my embracing of the CF's B&B policy. I wrote earlier in this thread, there has not been much requirement to do so, YMMV. 

As to what could be a more relevant requirment than spending a year learning a skill I rarely use? I suppose I could have been on a year long tour instead, doing my job. Perhaps I could have done a year long military skills course? Or filled a Pri-1 manning position that is so desperately needed somewhere. With respect to your "frames on the wall" envy, I have only a calendar and a telephone, so you can stuff that sort of comment. 

Its obvious you are getting more use out of it than I & nothing we write is going to change each others opinions. 

Cheers.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Quote,
_Read what I said again. My apologies if you are unfamiliar with the SL scoring system. To reiterate, I pushed myself fairly hard to go from speaking no French whatsoever to become almost fluent. Admittedly, I do not go looking for reasons to converse French just to demonstrate my skills and my embracing of the CF's B&B policy. I wrote earlier in this thread, there has not been much requirement to do so, YMMV. _ 

If it has changed since I did my French course in 1985 in Pet. than no I am not familiar with it, if it hasn't ,then yes I am. I guess the difference could be I really wanted to learn the language and volunteered for the course.[and missed a jammy tour in Cypress] and went out of my way [and still do] to find a use for my learned skills.[some posters in the French forum enjoy correcting my posts via PM, you know who you are ]  however I could see how someone who HAS to take the course might not be as enthused as I was.

Infanteer,
 ....again I don't hang signs[boxes] on anybody[exept Canadian] but if I did have to I would say my children are Franco-Ontarian. Congrats on putting the young un' into French-immersion, everyone should at that age, kids are like sponges they suck stuff up and don't even know it.


----------



## Infanteer

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ....again I don't hang signs[boxes] on anybody[exept Canadian] but if I did have to I would say my children are Franco-Ontarian. Congrats on putting the young un' into French-immersion, everyone should at that age, kids are like sponges they suck stuff up and don't even know it.



Neither do I Bruce - the problem is that various levels of Government seem to; I think that is the point of contention I'm getting at.


----------



## taz_202

My husband has just started SLT in st.jean and we are having difficulties in finding an apartment, he says most are year long leases and that apartments in Quebec rarely come with appliances.  Can anyone who has been in this situtaion in st jean please give any suggestions or advice to our dilemma.  Are there any PMQ's available?  I also heard that there are single rooms available at the Mega for short term visits.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## aesop081

There are suites in the blue sector of the mega that you can have for $20 per night.   They are fairly decent, i have stayed in them a few times.   It is normal in quebec for appartments not to include apliances, i have lived there alot and it has always been this way.   The PMQs for all the locations in the Montreal area are located in St-Hubert ( the old FMC hq) not too sure on availability.   If your husband is POSTED to St-Jean, the military pays for the penalties involved in breaking a lease, you would have to discuss the situation with the local IRP office.


----------



## Bograt

Hello my dear,

ASEOP, SLT is not considered a post. Remarkable that the last few classes of BOTP were about Quality of Life- then they tell you that you must stay in St. Jean for an additional 8 months. In our serials case, that is 11 months without a post away from family.

I think your hubby has found a place. Details coming soon.


----------



## Uberman

I've tried looking on the net for info on St. Jean however not getting alot of useful stuff. How big is it, is there anything to do, or are you limited to taking off to Montreal - heh, in other words is it like Wainwright - ahhh the Wainwright Hotel and Rustlers.


----------



## Bograt

If you are asking what the housing market is like in St. Jean, my response is "not sure." A couple of the guys found places in Montreal to rent while they are doing SLT. Some others have found places in town. Based on what I have heard, it is a bit a pain- given the time restrictions, language barrier, and the general dislike the town has for the military.

St. Jean is a bout 82K people. It was voted most "awful" , by Places to Live magazine.


----------



## MdB

Uberman said:
			
		

> I've tried looking on the net for info on St. Jean however not getting alot of useful stuff. How big is it, is there anything to do, or are you limited to taking off to Montreal - heh, in other words is it like Wainwright - ahhh the Wainwright Hotel and Rustlers.



Go take a look here, you'll find at least the city's website. For you to know, St. Jean is 45 mins from Montreal: really, really nearer from Montreal than Wainwright from Edmonton. There's plenty to do in St. Jean, there's plenty of nature and the river. If you have a car, the countryside in that area worth pretty much to take a look.



			
				Bograt said:
			
		

> If you are asking what the housing market is like in St. Jean, my response is "not sure." A couple of the guys found places in Montreal to rent while they are doing SLT. Some others have found places in town. Based on what I have heard, it is a bit a pain- given the time restrictions, language barrier, and the general dislike the town has for the military.



I don't know about the renting situation in St. Jean, but you don't have to go search as far as Montreal to find something. Especially, if you have a car, there's mid-size cities around and it's really worth searching for something there. Montreal area is still expensive, by Quebec standards.

And yeah, most of renting contract are on yearly base or monthly base. Depends who rents. I guess people there are used to see cadets and recruits, wouldn't be that a problem... I guess. Still, never been there a as cadet, so I really don't know.


----------



## Iliyana

There are some apartments on Morel St in St-Jean which are very nice. The owner will consider short-term leases and loves dealing with military personel. We had a 6 month lease when we there.


----------



## jerrold

I would like to shorten the time spent at St. Jean for second language training.  I have taken French throughout secondary and post-secondary school.  During the next 4-5 months I will study the language to prepare.  Is there any way to determine my current functional level (for Canadian Forces purposes)?  Anything online that would give somehwat of an idea of where I stand?  Thought I would post, just in case others had the same question and found something.


----------



## Inch

I highly doubt your time will be shortened. If your french is really good, you may get tested when you get there and get exempt. If it's not, you'll have to do the whole 8 months. Trust me, I tried to get out of there too after 6 months but they made me stay the entire 8 months.


----------



## George Wallace

You can do the CF Language testing and if you are deemed completely bilingual you may be exempted, if not you, as Inch said will have to do the time.  The Trg System is timed so that you do a crse and then move on to another.  If you don't do this crse, you may find yourself in limbo with your thumb up your a*** for eight months waiting for the next of your crses to start.  

Another point is that if you do get exempted and are lucky enough to be loaded on your next crse with a previous string of enrollies, you will be the FNG and have to become a member of a new group all over again.  Sometimes it is better to stay with your "Coursemates" through all your training, rather than being an unknown element in a group that has been together for a long time.

You may also find that although you think you are bilingual, you may fail the test, due to technical terms that are used in the Gov't but not in everyday speech and writing.  It surely doesn't hurt to do the test.


----------



## jerrold

Thanks for the info.  The scenario presented at the recruiting centre was somewhat different.  They advised that I prepare for the test and my time would likely be shortened.  However, as I have seen on this site, sometimes recruiting information does not totally match with others' experience.  Nothing against the recruiters, however, I am sure that those that go through the process likely have a better idea about some issues.  Sitting on my butt for months would not be desirable.  My main concern is the length of time away from family.  I live in Alberta and I applied for Logistics.  For Basic and second language training, I would be gone for one year.  After that, it could be a year or more again.  I noticed on another thread that someone in Logistics had a move paid for when they went to Borden.  Has anyone else?  Or am I pretty much SOL and left to my own devices to get my family close?  I can understand being away for the first year, however, the time thereafter seems excessive.  I'm not trying to whine here, however, the total time away does seem a bit excessive for there not to be any support.  Again, thanks for the info. re. second language training.


----------



## Bograt

Inch said:
			
		

> I highly doubt your time will be shortened. If your french is really good, you may get tested when you get there and get exempt. If it's not, you'll have to do the whole 8 months. Trust me, I tried to get out of there too after 6 months but they made me stay the entire 8 months.



Finally an opportunity to rebut something Inch says.

If you are already proficient in the language, you will be tested. If you do not get your required profile you will have to go to SLT. At the beginning of SLT you are slotted into a class of your level. The course is broken into a series of modules. It is possible to be start at module 5 or 8 and endure only 2-3 months before getting an opportunity to do the language test again. 

My best advice to you would be to find a francophone girlfriend and hide away in some northern Quebec town for the next 4 months.


----------



## Inch

Bograt said:
			
		

> Finally an opportunity to rebut something Inch says.
> 
> If you are already proficient in the language, you will be tested. If you do not get your required profile you will have to go to SLT. At the beginning of SLT you are slotted into a class of your level. The course is broken into a series of modules. It is possible to be start at module 5 or 8 and endure only 2-3 months before getting an opportunity to do the language test again.
> 
> My best advice to you would be to find a francophone girlfriend and hide away in some northern Quebec town for the next 4 months.



When I was there people started on Mod 8 but still did the full 8 months, ending on about mod 23 or something to that effect. I didn't mention it before, but there are 10 week courses that are run in the summer for CivU ROTP types, but I still stand by my info in that if you're loaded on an 8 month course, you're staying for the full 8 months. I don't know of anyone that got a shorter course in the 8 months that I spent there.


----------



## Bograt

Inch said:
			
		

> When I was there people started on Mod 8 but still did the full 8 months, ending on about mod 23 or something to that effect. I didn't mention it before, but there are 10 week courses that are run in the summer for CivU ROTP types, but I still stand by my info in that if you're loaded on an 8 month course, you're staying for the full 8 months. I don't know of anyone that got a shorter course in the 8 months that I spent there.



At the most recent SLT serial in St. Jean, I know of atleast 4 fellows who enjoyed only 4 months of extra time in the Mega. They had all tried and were originally unsuccessful during their initial testing. (I know three of them had to get their BAB). I think they got their C's.

Needless to say, If you are not fluent, or were not raised on beans and chocolate spread for breakfast, you will be doing your time in the Mega. Subway does have good coffee.


----------



## Inch

I guess that's a new development. In the end, it doesn't really matter, it's all pensionable time.  ;D


----------



## jerrold

Thanks for the info. fellas.  Based on what I have read I think I might as well kick back and prepare for 8 months and Subway coffee.  True enough, it's all pensionable time regardless.  So, how are the courses run?  Is it just French language training and PT?  At least it sounds like we get off base a bit.  How about weekends?


----------



## Inch

When I was there, we were in class from 0800 till 1500 with an hour for lunch and the standard 10 min breaks after 50 mins of class. If you weren't in class, what you did with your time was up to you. I played intersection hockey a couple nights a week and the odd shinny game if I could remember when it was. Thurs were always a good night at the mess, and we usually spend Sat and Sun in Montreal or the south shore.


----------



## jerrold

Sounds good.  Thanks once again for all of the information.


----------



## bluecollared

Does everyone have to do second language training? I'm applying for Infantry and this is the first I'm hearing of it. I knew it was optional, and I was planning on doing it anyway, but I never heard that everyone had to do it.


----------



## nurse sarah

I haven't heard of anyone being given the choice. If you're ROTP and you have time in the summer then that's where you go(to french). And if you're DEO you do basic and then the long 8 month thing. I have no idea if NCM's have to take french though if that's what you're talking about.


Sarah


----------



## RowdyBowdy

snowy owl said:
			
		

> I haven't heard of anyone being given the choice. If you're ROTP and you have time in the summer then that's where you go(to french). And if you're DEO you do basic and then the long 8 month thing. I have no idea if NCM's have to take french though if that's what you're talking about.
> 
> 
> Sarah



No NCMs I know have had to take french (or had the option to).  I know I'd jump at the chance to go to french school for 8 months


----------



## bgc_fan

I'm not sure which serial you're talking about (starting May I guess?). But I was with an "advanced" group in Jan, we didn't follow the mods since the only thing we were missing was the verbal component since we all had essentially CBA profiles. We were given the chance to leave in May by taking the test... we all scored CCBs with one person that got a CCC, so I don't think it's that uncommon.



			
				Bograt said:
			
		

> At the most recent SLT serial in St. Jean, I know of atleast 4 fellows who enjoyed only 4 months of extra time in the Mega. They had all tried and were originally unsuccessful during their initial testing. (I know three of them had to get their BAB). I think they got their C's.
> 
> Needless to say, If you are not fluent, or were not raised on beans and chocolate spread for breakfast, you will be doing your time in the Mega. Subway does have good coffee.


----------



## Pieman

Having no French at all in my education background, I started taking Adult French courses. Trying to learn as much as I can before I am shipped off to the SLT. Not trying to shorten my time, but prevent myself from being overwhelmed. 

The course is offered at a elementary French school not far from my house, is in the evening and is extremely cheap ($120 for four months, 2 hours a week course). I suspect most schools of this kind would offer such courses. So it might be a good idea for those who feel they need to brush up, or are starting from scratch like myself.

One questions about the results mentioned here. What is the required rating to pass SLT? (CCC? BBB?)


----------



## Pencil Tech

Pieman, the profile required to pass the St-Jean course is B (Reading) A (Writing) and B (Oral).


----------



## Bograt

Pencil Tech said:
			
		

> Pieman, the profile required to pass the St-Jean course is B (Reading) A (Writing) and B (Oral).



Minor Change

B- Comprehension
A- Oral
B- Writing


----------



## bgc_fan

Bograt said:
			
		

> Minor Change
> 
> B- Comprehension
> A- Oral
> B- Writing



Unless they've changed things quite a bit, you have the last two mixed up (A-Writing/Written Expression, B-Oral)


----------



## Bograt

I'm not so confident about it now. 

Cheers for the clarification.


----------



## Maritime_Matt

Does anybody know what the deal is with SLT in St Jean? Figuring IAP + BOTC = 14 weeks, and then as much as 7 months for SLT- Does this mean I'm going to have to live away from my wife for the first year of my military career? Is she allowed to come down for any extended time or is it just restricted to week-end visits? Any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## Dirt Digger

Maritime_Matt said:
			
		

> Does anybody know what the deal is with SLT in St Jean? Figuring IAP + BOTC = 14 weeks, and then as much as 7 months for SLT- Does this mean I'm going to have to live away from my wife for the first year of my military career? Is she allowed to come down for any extended time or is it just restricted to week-end visits? Any advice would be appreciated.



Unless things have changed, if you're doing a winter BOTC serial, you'll be getting out of Language School around August.  Basically, your job during that time frame will be to learn french...regular work hours, Monday to Friday.  After hours is your life and you can take off on the weekends with a leave pass.

Seeing that you're married, you'll get separation allowance...pays for the shoebox room and the weekly bacon-wrapped turkey tornados.  When I was there, some people chose to go off rations...not a very popular choice for your mod-mates, especially if you can't cook or think that the bathroom sinks are a good place to soak pots.  You can get a phone in your room and the cable connection usually has a few splices.

Some people chose to fly the spouse out to St-Jean and find a place to live off base....imposed restriction, so you'll do it on your own dime.  You also have leave entitlements and can fly back home on block leave (or fly to wife out to Montreal for a vacation).

Life can get very repetative, but that doesn't have to be a bad thing.  The Mega has a theatre and a decent gym...use them.  If you don't have a car, find someone who does that shares your interests.  Even if you're stuck inside...GO OUTSIDE.  It's very easy to enter the Mega and never go outside, especially during the winter.  Every weekend I was in downtown Montreal.  Getting out will maintain your sanity, and give you some good opportunities to practice the language.

Finally...yes, it's a long go.  In my first year in (and my first year of marriage), I saw my wife 21 days out of the entire year.  It gets better, just takes leaving the Mega for that to happen.   ;D


----------



## thorbahn

Reinforcing a question asked earlier but never answered:

Is SLT run similarly to any other military course? With PT, etc?


----------



## bgc_fan

thorbahn said:
			
		

> Reinforcing a question asked earlier but never answered:
> 
> Is SLT run similarly to any other military course? With PT, etc?



PT is on your own initiative. You'll have plenty of time for it, i.e. you'll make the time.  Those who are going on CAP do have a weekly ruck march, but other than that, it's a little more lax. They'd probably have you sign up for some OPME courses as well. It wouldn't be a bad idea to do them since I've been told numerous times that you generally don't have much time for them when you're trade qualified.


----------



## kincanucks

Frack the OPME courses while you are doing SLT.  You are better off concentrating on your SLT because in the end it means more than the OPMEs.  Do them later you will have lots of time when you are "trade qualified".


----------



## bgc_fan

kincanucks said:
			
		

> Frack the OPME courses while you are doing SLT.  You are better off concentrating on your SLT because in the end it means more than the OPMEs.  Do them later you will have lots of time when you are "trade qualified".



Generally, I'd agree with you. The main point of SLT is to get some proficiency in your second language. But, the OPME courses they had us do were the Defence Management and Intro to Military Law which do not require that much time away from studying, just a bit of weekend work is basically all that's needed. I'm not suggesting taking all 6 courses at once, just those two and maybe 1 more in the second term and half the requirements are gone. 

Besides, based on what I saw during SLT, most people do have a spare hour or so if they choose to use it constructively (after the SLT studying and PT).

As for lots of time after "trade qualification", I'm getting the opposite impression from some of the Lts and Capts. Then again, some of those who come through RMC have the advantage on that score since most of the OPMEs are covered in their degrees.


----------



## silverbach

If I got an exemption from the Public Service Commission of Canada for english, would the CF consider this to be exempted to take the language course of the CF ?


----------



## DrSize

Anyone know what you wear during the day for SLT??? Combats(hopefully) haha??


----------



## Japexican

At St. John it's combats or 3B's.  Most people go with the combats...


----------



## SeanNewman

To put a different spin on this thread, take all the time you can to enjoy your St. Jean stay the best you can, and work out like a mad man.  With all of the facilities in the same building, it's very easy to go to the gym every day, and since you're with your friends, it's that much easier to have gym partners to motivate eachother.

When you show up for CAP, you should be in the best shape of your life, because you just had 7-8 months of free time.  Nobody is saying that you can't spend hours a day setting up the uber-pod with PS2 and a plasma TV and have fun, but hit the gym hard.

Let's not also forget that you're 1/2 hour away from an awesome city, compared to Petawawa where one has to drive 1/2 hour to get to WalMart or Canadian Tire.

Enoy it!


----------



## ProPatria05

Unless it's changed since May '04, dress for SLT in St. Jean (aka the Mega) is 3b's (short sleeve green shirt, CF pants, oxfords, optional sweater) from Monday to Thursday.  Some Fridays (or maybe all, I can't remember) were casual, with a $1 or $2 donation to the United Way.

For those who have to do CAP following SLT, there is (or at least was) a ruck march every Wed afternoon, so dress on Wed for those individuals only was combats.


----------



## Glorified Ape

Piper said:
			
		

> All the SLT types I saw this summer wore Combats everyday, excepting the Navy folks who wore NCD's.



Ditto - I was on SLT this past summer as well and you could wear combats or 3B's. It's largely up to the school, though. They're still doing the Friday "casual" day where you can wear civilian clothes (no running shoes or jeans, though).


----------



## Bobby147

Hi all,

I was reading CF recruiting web site and found:

"_Second language training will be provided to officers who are not already fluent in both official languages. The length of training is based upon an individual’s second language proficiency. "_

My question:

If somebody's second laguage is really bad, he/she will have to continue BOTC until he/she becomes reasonably well in that language?

What is general length of BOTC? 

I am asking as my French language skills are not good....

Thanks in advance....


----------



## kincanucks

Bobby147 said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> I was reading CF recruiting web site and found:
> 
> "_Second language training will be provided to officers who are not already fluent in both official languages. The length of training is based upon an individual’s second language proficiency. "_
> 
> My question:
> 
> If somebody's second laguage is really bad, he/she will have to continue BOTC until he/she becomes reasonably well in that language?
> 
> What is general length of BOTC?
> 
> I am asking as my French language skills are not good....
> 
> Thanks in advance....



Second Language Training is separate from BOTP and can be up to 33 weeks in length.


----------



## IrishCanuck

Hmm.. anyone have any general guidelines on what they mean when they say fluent?

I took 6 years of Immersion/Extended French and went on exchange to France.. and I can understand French well if it is not spoken very quickly with slang.. and can convey what I want to in what I'd consider poor accented / lilted French


----------



## Bobby147

Is there any pass or fail system?


----------



## kincanucks

Bobby147 said:
			
		

> Is there any pass or fail system?



No but you will have to obtain a certain language profile if you ever expect to reach certain officer ranks so take advantage of the opportunity to learn the language within 33 weeks and if you don't get it completely then you can take future language training later in your career.


----------



## Infanteer

You are normally enrolled in the 33-week basic program.  There are 5 (I believe) EO and 2 PO checks during the course.  If you fail these, there is the chance (depending on what your professor says) that you will have a PRB which may result in you having to repeat a part of the course or being punted.  Once you've completed the PO's, you are usually in good shape to take the Public Service Test, administered by someone from Public Works Canada.  No matter how well/crappy you did on the CF French course, your profile (which consists of three parts) is what matters.

If you have a strong background in French, you will be able to challenge the Public Service Test at some point.  If you achieve a profile that is good enough for your trade (most are BAB, but some are higher) than you will be exempted from the course.


----------



## Pvt. Pukepail

Hey all,

I'm really interested in learning French, becoming fully bilingual (I know some french, but not enough to be considered bilingual) and am aware that the army does offer language courses, my question is when is something like the available for an NCM?  I am hellbent on learning French, and I would like to do it as soon as practical once I've completed basic and infantry school.  So when would the earliest possible time be?  Is there certain restrictions imposed on lower level NCMs?  As in, is it only available to those who have upped following their initial hitch?  Or is it reasonable for a Private to be able to do it?

One of the reasons is, (although I'm not sure what the standards of entry is- whether you can be bilingual, or if you MUST be Quebecois) I'm particularily interested in joining the Van Doos out of Valcartier.

Any info anyone may have on this would be appreciated.  

(ahh, there was already a topic here.  Guess it does pay to use the search button.  My bad.)


----------



## Radop

As I have been fortunate enough to get a year long French course, I have also had time to discuss the topic of when should this course be offered to soldiers?  There are about 60 291ers taking French Trg here in Kingston with exceptional results.  Most are walking away with BBB after NP7.  The question is 'Should all trades be doing the same'?  It is going to be manditory in the very near future that to get to the MWO and CWOs rank, you will have to be at least AAB and for certain possitions BBB in the second language.  (Please note that the forces considers you bilingual only if you have both French and English, not English and German or any other languages)  We (the year long French students) have seen the progress of these people and feel that that opertunity should be all part of the initial training system.  Basic, Language Training (AAA min), QL3s, etc.  Since the language school is right there witht he Recruit school, why not?  It would take time to incorporate but we think it could work.  Better than telling someone yeah you were number 1 on the merit list but because we never loaded you on a French Course in your career, you can't be promoted.  I can see the redresses now.

Your thoughts!


----------



## MOOXE

Radop said:
			
		

> As I have been fortunate enough to get a year long French course, I have also had time to discuss the topic of when should this course be offered to soldiers?  There are about 60 291ers taking French Trg here in Kingston with exceptional results.  Most are walking away with BBB after NP7.  The question is 'Should all trades be doing the same'?  It is going to be manditory in the very near future that to get to the MWO and CWOs rank, you will have to be at least AAB and for certain possitions BBB in the second language.  (Please note that the forces considers you bilingual only if you have both French and English, not English and German or any other languages)  We (the year long French students) have seen the progress of these people and feel that that opertunity should be all part of the initial training system.  Basic, Language Training (AAA min), QL3s, etc.  Since the language school is right there witht he Recruit school, why not?  It would take time to incorporate but we think it could work.  Better than telling someone yeah you were number 1 on the merit list but because we never loaded you on a French Course in your career, you can't be promoted.  I can see the redresses now.
> 
> Your thoughts!



Adding a year to Basic, Driver, QL3, PAT.. I'd be depressed!


----------



## D3V1L6

The whole Bilingual thing has been a topic of discussion for years...and politically its all nice and dandy.... but truth is, in when working overseas with coalition forces, french is absolutely useless.  I'm fortunate enough to have been born and raised in an environment that resulted i me being bilingual, but at the risk of sounding prejudiced, I think french is obsolete in our army of today for anything other than interacting with our co-workers in QC that do not speak english.   What I would be curious to find out is how much are they pushing for english courses in Valcartier?


----------



## Radop

D3V1L6 said:
			
		

> .... but truth is, in when working overseas with coalition forces, french is absolutely useless.



Realy, two out or five missions I have been on were in French countries were negotiations were done in French and were if I had been bilingual, would have made my life that much easier.  I got by on the little French I had but still would have been a whole lot easier if I was bilingual.  This past summer when I was in Afghanistan, I also had to speak French because the briefings that were given by the French convoy commanders made no sence in English so I had him repeat it in French (maybe speaking a second language may save your life someday for anyone that has been to Kandahar).  The statistics back up the facts that being able to speak French and English will improve your chances of communicating in another country significantly.  Africa has half of the Countries as former English colonies and half French Colonies (although Germany had a few near the meditranian, most use English as there second language now).  I don't think it is an obsolete item at all.

The other person who mentioned adding a year onto the training, I incorrectly included this at the end of my first sentence.  Our discussions talked about a 3 month course to get everyone up to a AAA level and over time, work to a BBB level.  There are very few units out there that have no French pers.  Some trades though do require the training to a BBB level.



			
				D3V1L6 said:
			
		

> What I would be curious to find out is how much are they pushing for english courses in Valcartier?


Again, the stats prove out that more Francophones are Bilingual than Anglophones upon entering the forces.  This is changing because of French emmersion in schools today but still more Francophones are able to talk English to us than Anglophones speak French to them.  Furthermore, if you read the regs, superiors are to talk to their subordinates in the language of choise (French or English beforse someone points out some are Polish or another first language) of the SUBORDINATE.  This makes learning French all that more important.  Over rated, I think not, assist in bringing our forces togeather, I think so.


----------



## SupersonicMax

MOOXE said:
			
		

> Adding a year to Basic, Driver, QL3, PAT.. I'd be depressed!



Why not SLT instead of PAT

Max


----------



## aesop081

D3V1L6 said:
			
		

> The whole Bilingual thing has been a topic of discussion for years...and politically its all nice and dandy.... but truth is, in when working overseas with coalition forces, french is absolutely useless.  I'm fortunate enough to have been born and raised in an environment that resulted i me being bilingual, but at the risk of sounding prejudiced, I think french is obsolete in our army of today for anything other than interacting with our co-workers in QC that do not speak english.......



Well, you should have tried working with the French military in Kosovo.  I'm quite certain it was not useless to speak french with that coalition force.  The following year i also had 2 brand new section members in my troop who spoke only french, and that was in Edmonton in an mostly english speaking regiment.  Guess who had to translate the O-group for those guys every day. I'm quite certain that you assertion that "french is obsolete for anything other than interacting with our co-workers in QC that do not speak english" is out to lunch.  Have you ever tried to teach in gagetown when you have both anglo and franco students in the same classroom ?  I have.....funny, that was not in QC either.


----------



## Radop

That is what I am talking about here.  PAT Training is training of endurance.  Sitting in Borden doing nothing is not training neither is shovelling show from sidewalks.  SLT vs PAT, I think that is a no brainer!

Two tours I have had to work with the French military so I can appreciate what you have to say cdnaviator.


----------



## combatbuddha

Does anyone have any information with regards the newly announced policy on bilingualism within the CF.
In particular I am concerned if this is going to be a continued area for "points" from a Merit Board for promotion. Common sense would say No, but we have sene in the past how far this has gotten us in the past.
IMHO it should no longer be a consideration unless one is posted to a postion where it is essential to be bilingual.

Any takers?


----------



## aesop081

Why should it no longer be a consideration......

I'm franco with an EEE profile in english.  I can be employed in any position regardless of working language. Why should i not get credited for that ? Am i not more employable than someone who is unilingual ?


----------



## Judy

Language profiles will always be part of the 'points' system, and rightly so.


----------



## spud

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Am i not more employable than someone who is unilingual ?



Depends on how cranky you are


----------



## armyvern

spud said:
			
		

> Depends on how cranky you are



 ;D Isn't that a fact!!


----------



## josh

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Why should it no longer be a consideration......
> 
> I'm franco with an EEE profile in english.  I can be employed in any position regardless of working language. Why should i not get credited for that ? Am i not more employable than someone who is unilingual ?



What difference does your French language make in an operational environment like Afghanistan where the common language among the coalition forces is English?  I wonder how many of our American allies speak French?  ;D


----------



## George Wallace

josh said:
			
		

> What difference does your French language make in an operational environment like Afghanistan where the common language among the coalition forces is English?  I wonder how many of our American allies speak French?  ;D



Didn't you know, it makes you shoot straighter and faster?    ;D


----------



## combatbuddha

Simple. Points are already awarded for professional development. Include second language ability in this category.

From my point of view it would help the worker bees and middle managers (Pte-WO). Pers who are top performers (and have technical courses, OPMEs, and other training) from both hard Anglo and Franco postings can compete fairly without DICRIMINATION. Gives the opportunity for Soldier A in Edmonton who is Anglo vehicle technician, civilian certified mechanic to compete fairly with Soldier B, who is a Franco militarily trained veh tech with no certification but is fully bilingual. They both have some form of profesional development which gives them both points in the eyes of a merit board, to a maximum.
Stops the people who are weak performers, both soldierly and technically, who try to make up for it with the "shiny stuff," from getting promoted over the strong performers who only wish to do the best job for their troops.


----------



## combatbuddha

Judy said:
			
		

> Language profiles will always be part of the 'points' system, and rightly so.



Why, if it is not required at the "worker bee" level?
Again, I beleive it should be in the same classification as OPMEs and other professional development and not something that reeks of discrimination.


----------



## aesop081

josh said:
			
		

> What difference does your French language make in an operational environment like Afghanistan where the common language among the coalition forces is English?  I wonder how many of our American allies speak French?  ;D



I can only assume that you know that there are other things going on other than afghanistan. Afghanistan is on eoperation but there are other things back home such as training, Headquarters, project management..........Granted operation sin the sandbox are important, seems to me you are incapable of seeing the bigger picture. Ever had to work in Kosovo with the French army........or in Africa for that matter........


----------



## aesop081

combatbuddha said:
			
		

> Why, if it is not required at the "worker bee" level?
> not something that reeks of discrimination.



 :rofl:

I actualy thought you were interestd in a genuine discussion.  Now i can only imagine you are disgruntelled, probably someone who was passed over for promotion to someone with as second language profile.  "Discrimination"......up until now , officers regardless of FOL were required to get a profile in the other......how that discriminates i have no idea.


----------



## George Wallace

combatbuddha 


That is basically how the system is supposed to work right now.  The actual points that one can get for a Second Language proficiency is really only a fraction of a PER/Merit Board Ranking.  95% +/- of a persons Merit Board Ranking for job performance based on merit.  Second Language ability may only be the tie breaker when two equally merited persons are in competition.  Your example would not have been relevant in any way, even today.


I see you have modified your original post:


			
				combatbuddha said:
			
		

> From my point of view it would help the worker bees and middle managers (Pte-WO). Pers who are top performers (and have technical courses, OPMEs, and other training) from both hard Anglo and Franco postings can compete fairly without DICRIMINATION. Gives the opportunity for Soldier A in Edmonton who is Anglo vehicle technician, civilian certified mechanic to compete fairly with Soldier B, who is a Franco militarily trained veh tech with no certification but is fully bilingual. They both have some form of profesional development which gives them both points in the eyes of a merit board, to a maximum.
> Stops the people who are weak performers, both soldierly and technically, who try to make up for it with the "shiny stuff," from getting promoted over the strong performers who only wish to do the best job for their troops.


----------



## vonGarvin

I think what the spirit of the question is perhaps based upon former situations in which a person with a higher language profile gets "topped" over someone who is not bilingual, but if you take away the profile, the unilingual person rates higher.

It has happened.

I'll just adopt the attitude of "watch and shoot" on this one.


----------



## aesop081

Captain (Army)  Scarlet said:
			
		

> I think what the spirit of the question is perhaps based upon former situations in which a person with a higher language profile gets "topped" over someone who is not bilingual, but if you take away the profile, the unilingual person rates higher.
> 
> It has happened.
> 
> I'll just adopt the attitude of "watch and shoot" on this one.



Let me ut it to you this way........

Language ability only counts for 2 points out of a hundred......so someone who "tops" another because of language ONLY........would only be lower by one point if it were taken away......

When i was at the school in Gagetown, i was one of only 2 french-speaking instructors.  Therefore m work load was triple that of english-only staff.  I had to teach anglo courses, franco course and instruct on courses i was not qualified to teach because anglo only qualified instructors could not teach the few franco students on the course.......I am quite certain that i meritted those 2 points over someone who could not be employed i as many capacities as i could.

When i went to the ice storms in 98...i was made driver for the sqn OC specificaly because i spoke french and the Major had to deal with local emergency workers and politicians who did not speak english...so again, tell me where french wasnt useful in operations ?

Want to talk about Afghanistan...OK

Lets make it that all have to learn arabic now instead of french.  How about that ?  I am already learning it from a freind here so i am good to go....give me my 2 points.  Whats that, you cant learn another language........gee thats too bad.......


----------



## vonGarvin

If a person flips over another because of language, then it becomes a deciding factor.  At battalion command and lower, it is not necessary to speak the other language.  At schools, it is (national schools, anyway).  

As for franco/anglo doing more work, I don't believe that.  It's all perception.  I've instructed on French courses, and on English, and my command of the french language, well, it's difficult.  (that's just me, and perhaps because it's my third language, after english and german).

As I said, watch and shoot.  I don't make policy.  Yes, I have opinions, but they are worth exactly what you pay for them: nothing.


----------



## aesop081

Captain (Army)  Scarlet said:
			
		

> If a person flips over another because of language, then it becomes a deciding factor.  At battalion command and lower, it is not necessary to speak the other language.  At schools, it is (national schools, anyway).



So what if it is a deciding factor ? If the 2 individuals had identical PER scores, wht is wrong with language breaking the tie.  That individual offers the caree manager, and his/her MOC more options.  I agree that bellow Battalion command it is not a big deal, but when do you teach those people will will be BN comanders and above....when they are in their 40s and less than able to learn, have other training that needs doing ?



> As for franco/anglo doing more work, I don't believe that.  It's all perception.  I've instructed on French courses, and on English, and my command of the french language, well, it's difficult.  (that's just me, and perhaps because it's my third language, after english and german).



Beleive what you want, i am the one who lived it, came back to the office to see alot of my anglo comerades sittin at the computer surfing the internet. I taught anglo courses, franco courses and helped the anglo instructors teach the ones where students were mixed ( MILE PH3 & 4 as well ans franco assist QL6A and 6B). Then translated lesson plans.........



> As I said, watch and shoot.  I don't make policy.  Yes, I have opinions, but they are worth exactly what you pay for them: nothing.


+1


----------



## vonGarvin

again, *just my opinion*, but language should NOT be the deciding factor.  Anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens.  And I wonder what the merit boards were like prior to the "official bilingual" rules came into effect.


----------



## aesop081

Captain (Army)  Scarlet said:
			
		

> again, *just my opinion*, but language should NOT be the deciding factor.



Seriously, tell me, if 2 soldiers have identical scores.......what should be the deciding factor then ? Tallest one gets promoted ? married over single ? shortest last name ?  Most middle names ?


----------



## vonGarvin

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Seriously, tell me, if 2 soldiers have identical scores.......what should be the deciding factor then ? Tallest one gets promoted ? married over single ? shortest last name ?  Most middle names ?


If it's most middle names, then the French guy 

But seriously, they should both be promoted.


----------



## aesop081

Captain (Army)  Scarlet said:
			
		

> If it's most middle names, then the French guy



Dont be so sure...........I only have one



> But seriously, they should both be promoted.



But you know as well as i do that the number of promotions is limited to a certain number......that will not always be possible.


Further more.  it can be argued that more Francos speak english than the reverse.  What are we going to do...predominantly staff bilingual positions or positions requiring french with folks from Quebec.  Is it fair to use those soldiers only in HQ and school environments ? is it even fair for Anglos to deny them the work and promotion oportunities that come with jobs such as PMO and the like at NDHQ ?

Further thinking of you assertion that BN comd and lower dont needs french.....what about school comandants ? what about training coy/sqn OC within those schools........


----------



## vonGarvin

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Further thinking of you assertion that BN comd and lower dont needs french.....what about scholl comandants ? what about training coy/sqn OC within those schools........


Those aren't battalions.  Those are schools.  Not all schools are bilingual.  Most, yes, but some are anglo, some franco.  
Now, for a discriminator between two equal captains in the same trade and regiment vying for one major position, instead of language, why not shooting proficiency?  But, in the case of two equals of the same rank, they go back as far as it takes to see a tie breaker.  Previous PERs, course scores, etc (as far as I know).
Back to kindergarten grades?  I doubt it!  But still, there are other ways.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Mr. Scarlet,
Lets see if I got this straight, useless pieces of paper hanging on a wall would break a tie, but a usefull skill one has that the other does not should go out the window??


----------



## aesop081

Captain (Army)  Scarlet said:
			
		

> Those aren't battalions.  Those are schools.  Not all schools are bilingual.  Most, yes, but some are anglo, some franco.
> Now, for a discriminator between two equal captains in the same trade and regiment vying for one major position, instead of language, why not shooting proficiency?  But, in the case of two equals of the same rank, they go back as far as it takes to see a tie breaker.  Previous PERs, course scores, etc (as far as I know).
> Back to kindergarten grades?  I doubt it!  But still, there are other ways.



But you run into the same issues not matter what you use. take education for example.......2 identical captains...identical everything.  One went to RMC the other is a CFR. Is a basket-weaving degree any more relevant than second language ?


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

...and the points shouldn't apply to just the French or English languages.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

cdnavaitor-

You are speaking as if the CF is putting a complete prohibition on learning and speaking french.  That is not the case here, as I understand it.  Things have so seriously gotten out of wack on the language front over the past few years to the point where anyone not born on the Ottawa-Montreal corridor was basically screwed at the EX level. Hell, even the Capt/Maj level in many Occupations (I lived it)-Language course or no Language course.  I don't think that was ever the intent of the Official Languages Act.

You seem to have a real bit in your teeth over this issue.  Do you feel that a change in policy is going to personnally disadvantage you?  I'm not trying to be smart here- I'm trying to understand your specific objection to moving hundreds of millions of dollars per year in language trg to a point in a person's career (NCM or Officer) where it will do the most good, rather than shotgunning everyone, whether they will actually have an opportunity to practice daily their skills (vitally important IMHO, after three separate french courses over 20 years), or have any realistic aptitude for learning any more than hotel/restaurant English/French.  The CF will continue to be a bilingual institute- just differently, perhaps.

Thoughts?


----------



## vonGarvin

OK, to illustrate, here's an extreme example:
Two captains, both come from RMC (same year, same degree).  Both are Infantry, PPCLI.  They have served in the same units for the same length of time.
Both score 88 on PER, assume that's enough for the final promotion for PPCLI to major
Capt "A" has profile of BBB.
Capt "B" has profile of BAB.
Why should capt "A" get it and not capt "B"?  Suppose Capt "B" is in MUCH better physical condition than "A", even though  both have passed the BET, or BFT or whatever it's called.  
Physical Condition perhaps should have degrees of fitness, vice a minimum standard.  Maybe (again, just an opinion)
Or, if both are "equal" in this years PER, go back to last years, and the year before that.  Maybe, just maybe because Capt "B" came in first on a course, and "A" came in second on that same course should be the discriminator?


As for middle names, I just think of this one Adj who works for me.  His initials?  JAECD.  That does NOT include his last name!


----------



## aesop081

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> cdnavaitor-
> 
> You are speaking as if the CF is putting a complete prohibition on learning and speaking french.  That is not the case here, as I understand it.  Things have so seriously gotten out of wack on the language front over the past few years to the point where anyone not born on the Ottawa-Montreal corridor was basically screwed at the EX level. Hell, even the Capt/Maj level in many Occupations (I lived it)-Language course or no Language course.  I don't think that was ever the intent of the Official Languages Act.



No i didnt not think there was a prohibition.  I agree that in many ways, the original intent has been lost.  And by the way.....i was born as far away from the Ottawa-Montreal corridor as it gets.



> You seem to have a real bit in your teeth over this issue.  Do you feel that a change in policy is going to personnally disadvantage you?  I'm not trying to be smart here- I'm trying to understand your specific objection to moving hundreds of millions of dollars per year in language trg to a point in a person's career (NCM or Officer) where it will do the most good, rather than shotgunning everyone, whether they will actually have an opportunity to practice daily their skills (vitally important IMHO, after three separate french courses over 20 years), or have any realistic aptitude for learning any more than hotel/restaurant English/French. The CF will continue to be a bilingual institute- just differently, perhaps .



i do have an issue with all this but i dont think its the issue you think.  Will a change in policy be a personal disadvatage to me ? if you are refering to PER score, i couldnt care less about those.  What i do care about is being forced into postings i do not want because i was born speaking french and bothered to learn english. What realy set me off is this talk of "discrimination" brought up several posts earlier.  The prevalent attitude is that forcing Anglos to learn french is somehow disrimination but forcing Francos to learn english is not.


i'm doing a poor job at explaining myself, so you see why i dont get my points for written communication  ;D


----------



## SeaKingTacco

cdnaviator-

Fair enough comment.  Forcing anyone to learn a second language is, at best, an iffy proposition.  If you aren't motivated, you won't learn (been that guy.  Don't be me, kids.  )

How do we encourage bilingualism, without making it a PER issue?  Money maybe?  How about a bilingualism bonus for maintaining a (insert profile here) in french/english?  How about further paying people to acquire and maintain Pashtun, Farsi and Arabic?

Just thinking out loud...


----------



## aesop081

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> cdnaviator-
> 
> Fair enough comment.  Forcing anyone to learn a second language is, at best, an iffy proposition.  If you aren't motivated, you won't learn (been that guy.  Don't be me, kids.  )
> 
> How do we encourage bilingualism, without making it a PER issue?  Money maybe?  How about a bilingualism bonus for maintaining a (insert profile here) in french/english?  How about further paying people to acquire and maintain Pashtun, Farsi and Arabic?
> 
> Just thinking out loud...



I understand that there is no perfect solution.  I think that shotgunning everyone with SLT early on in their careers is the 80% solution. Train to need is a lofty goal but learning a second language at 40 years old when you are getting ready to assume command of a battalion is slightly more challengine than taking a LAV course because that individual is taking command of a mech unit. I'm 31 and trying to learn italian and arabic and beleive me its a struggle and trying to fit that into my schedule......You do have a good point with skill fade.  Once a bew officer has completed SLT...adequate oportunity to maintain it is needed.  I dont know what your MOC is like but in mine, fast, unexpected postings are the norm....where do you fit SLT when postings and pomotions are separated by only months ? It may not seem operationaly important but just thinking that we may be limiting people's career fields even more....


----------



## armyvern

There is also another side to all of this.

What about those personnel who constantly request SLT only to be told that the priority is for XXX rank and above right now because their career progression depends on it?

People like those Pte/Cpl working the front counter of clothing stores who are dealing with franco courses/instructors on a daily basis and can't communicate with them? The same people who are requesting SLT and being denied, yet their franco counterparts are being loaded onto English SLT courses easily because there is not as much demand?

Run more French SLT courses then I say. But until the CF comes up with a solution whereby each and every member is afforded equal access to, and opportunity for, second language training, then those pers who can NOT get loaded onto courses (even though they should be able to use the second language in their daily work) should NOT be bumped for promotion based on the fact that they have no French profile.

Fair is fair. Don't hold it against the Anglo member that he can't get loaded onto SLT because XXX ranks are the priority for french courses, when the same rank Franco member can get loaded onto an English course with much more ease.

Just my .02 worth.


----------



## vonGarvin

I think part of the reason I'm a bit bitter is from my past.  A few years ago, as my profile was nearing extinction, I applied for a Second Language course.  10 weeks, afternoons, on the same base.  No war going on then, nothing.  Not even ATHENA.  Anyway, my application was rejected because "my position was too vital to be spared".  Same person who denied me this course was subsequently put on a SLT, and given that he was the dude who said "no" to my course, you can correctly deduce that he was superior to me, and yes, had an even more vital job.


PS: I've never had a job so vital that if I weren't there, the CF would cease to function


----------



## x-zipperhead

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> What realy set me off is this talk of "discrimination" brought up several posts earlier.  The prevalent attitude is that forcing Anglos to learn french is somehow disrimination but forcing Francos to learn english is not.



Is it not discriminitory to be providing second language trg to uni-lingual Franco recruits and not to uni-lingual Anglo recruits? (in the NCM world anyway.  I believe all officers receive second language trg). I would not argue against the fact that a second language is an asset.  Does a MCpl in R22eR need to speak english any more than a MCpl in the PPCLI needs to speak french. Probably not IMO.  However, as far as I understand it, the CF would have provided that R22eR MCpl second language trg when he joined (if he was not already bilingual).

IMO the discrimination is in not providing an equal opportunity to learn that much coveted second language profile thereby creating an uneven playing field career wise,

If I am mistaken in the belief that uni-lingual francos automatically are taught english during their initial training in the CF, please disregard all. ;D

P.S.  I think The Libriarian got to the heart of my post while I was fumbling over the keyboard but I'll post it any way


----------



## old man neri

Side note: Let this serve as a bit of a lesson to all: If you have kids force them (at gun point if necessary) into french immersion at jr high/high school, if available. I hated it when I went through but many years later I am happy my parents forced me into it.


----------



## x-zipperhead

old man neri,

Couldn't agree more.  However at the risk of sounding whiny, it can be difficult to get you child into a french immersion program here in the Annapolis Valley region of Nova Scotia (and I can only assume in other predominately english rural areas in Canada).  Space is limtied, at least one of the elementary school's program, in our area, is probably going to fold leading to a lottery system to get you kid in at another school.  But I digress. I don't want to get this thread off track and get my knuckles wrapped.


----------



## aesop081

x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> If I am mistaken in the belief that uni-lingual francos automatically are taught english during their initial training in the CF, please disregard all. ;D



You are indeed mistaken.  i had several soldiers under my care who were posted to Anglo units who did not speak a word of english and were not afforded SLT. One learned on his own, one was posted to Valcatier because he simply couldnt learn and i dont want to talk about the 3rd one.


----------



## x-zipperhead

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> You are indeed mistaken.  i had several soldiers under my care who were posted to Anglo units who did not speak a word of english and were not afforded SLT. One learned on his own, one was posted to Valcatier because he simply couldnt learn and i dont want to talk about the 3rd one.



Okay, as I was then.  

I still maintain, however, that if it is important enough to warrant impacting PER scores and merit boards then there should be opportunity for Francos and Anglos alike to get SLT.  I realize that this would be impractical given the numbers of pers involved and would be cause for a reassessment of whether or not it is a requirement for the members rank/trade/posting (let's face it in many many cases it is not reqired).  If it is not a requirement and you cannot provide SLT then the member shouldn't be penalized IMHO.  Which IMO is exactly what happens in many cases.


----------



## SupersonicMax

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> cdnaviator-
> 
> Fair enough comment.  Forcing anyone to learn a second language is, at best, an iffy proposition.  If you aren't motivated, you won't learn (been that guy.  Don't be me, kids.  )
> 
> How do we encourage bilingualism, without making it a PER issue?  Money maybe?  How about a bilingualism bonus for maintaining a (insert profile here) in french/english?  How about further paying people to acquire and maintain Pashtun, Farsi and Arabic?
> 
> Just thinking out loud...



Why would I, as a Francophone, be FORCED to learn English and my Anglo friends aren't?

Max


----------



## aesop081

x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> Okay, as I was then.
> 
> I still maintain, however, that if it is important enough to warrant impacting PER scores and merit boards then there should be opportunity for Francos and Anglos alike to get SLT.  I realize that this would be impractical given the numbers of pers involved and would be cause for a reassessment of whether or not it is a requirement for the members rank/trade/posting (let's face it in many many cases it is not reqired).  If it is not a requirement and you cannot provide SLT then the member shouldn't be penalized IMHO.  Which IMO is exactly what happens in many cases.



Absolutely.  Everyone should have access to SLT in order to make it a level playing field. I dont know what its like over in the ditch but here, the language school has to cancel french courses for lack of students.  The last course they were going to run that i am aware of, all they wanted was 3 students, afternoons only.  They had to cancell because they could not find 3 students. The oportunity to take the course is there.  Now if units are unwilling to send their soldiers on SLT, no official policy will work for anyone, that is the unit penalizing its soldiers......


----------



## armyvern

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> Absolutely.  Everyone should have access to SLT in order to make it a level playing field. I dont know what its like over in the ditch but here, the language school has to cancel french courses for lack of students.  The last course they were going to run that i am aware of, all they wanted was 3 students, afternoons only.  They had to cancell because they could not find 3 students. The oportunity to take the course is there.  Now if units are unwilling to send their soldiers on SLT, no official policy will work for anyone, that is the unit penalizing its soldiers......


The opportunity may indeed be present where you are, but it is not like that everywhere; specificlly the bilingual Unit of which I speak. And, it is not that the members are not seeking this course, or that their CoC won't let them; it is unavailibility of spots on the courses and of their being a "non-essential rank level" for loading as it is not yet deemed "necessary" for their career progression. Yet these same guys deal everyday with franco students and instructors; So it is not "officially" necessary for them, but is absolutely necessary for them, more so than some of the pers who do, by virtue of rank, get loaded onto the course while in a "bilingual non-essentail" position.

Let's remember that careers loads SLT courses, not Units. And each career shop has to deal with whateevr factors involve it's particular trade.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

> Why would I, as a Francophone, be FORCED to learn English and my Anglo friends aren't?
> 
> Max



Max,

The short answer on the English that you are forced to learn as a Franco is- you are a pilot.  Your business is done worldwide (Quebec, notwithstanding) in English.  That may suck and be unfair, but that is the way it is.

The larger issue we are all trying to deal with here, is that there is a limited supply of second language course available (for both anglos and francos, but the problem is much worse amongst the anglos).  We also have a limited supply of time in a person's career to take language trg- after all, our primary business is to break other people's things, when our government tells us to.  That is the thing we must be best at.  The result of our current system is that we have made it nearly impossible for some competent people to reach the next higher rank, because they either have not been offered adequate training or have not had the time because of their primary duties.

So how do we ensure that all of those who absolutely need language trg, of any kind, get it, when they need it, and then don't end up with skills fade?  Let's be honest here- a francophone who has learned English at CF expense does not have to work very hard to maintain it- 8 million francos live on a continent with 250 million anglos.  It is a touch more difficult (but not impossible) maintaining your french profile, if you spend your career in Esquimalt. Or Wainwright.  Or Moose Jaw.  My suggestion is that, we have tried career advancement as the carrot and that has not worked well.  Maybe we should try bilingualism bonuses in the CF.  You get bilingual (french or english, farsi, arabic, pashtun, mandarin, etc, etc) either through a inservice course or on your own time and can maintain it by testing every XX years, you get $XX/year.  The higher your profile, the more money you get.

I am not insensitive to the whole national unity aspect of bilingualism within the CF and believe that it is important to be able to communicate with your troops in a language they can understand.  I just think we need to balance that necessity, with the necessity to actually be a combat force.

Hopefully, as a new generation of French-immersed Anglos in western Canada and elsewhere begin to graduate high school shortly, some of this will go away...

Thoughts?


----------



## McG

x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> I believe all officers receive second language trg


I know of at least on that was never provided/offered the training despite having no ability in the other language.


----------



## Judy

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Max,
> 
> The short answer on the English that you are forced to learn as a Franco is- you are a pilot.  Your business is done worldwide (Quebec, notwithstanding) in English.  That may suck and be unfair, but that is the way it is.



Actually, even in Quebec, pilot business is done in english.  I work in Bagotville as a weapons controller, and all the briefs/debriefs/missions, etc. are in english.  There are a couple francophone pilots, but they speak english all day long, except if they're talking to other francophones.


----------



## armyvern

Judy said:
			
		

> Actually, even in Quebec, pilot business is done in english.  I work in Bagotville as a weapons controller, and all the briefs/debriefs/missions, etc. are in english.  There are a couple francophone pilots, but they speak english all day long, except if they're talking to other francophones.



Which is exactly what "Quebec, nothwithstanding" means.


----------



## observor 69

Read what Sea KingTacco has to say : 

"So how do we ensure that all of those who absolutely need language trg, of any kind, get it, when they need it, and then don't end up with skills fade?  Let's be honest here- a francophone who has learned English at CF expense does not have to work very hard to maintain it- 8 million francos live on a continent with 250 million anglos.  It is a touch more difficult (but not impossible) maintaining your french profile, if you spend your career in Esquimalt. Or Wainwright.  Or Moose Jaw.  My suggestion is that, we have tried career advancement as the carrot and that has not worked well.  Maybe we should try bilingualism bonuses in the CF.  You get bilingual (french or english, farsi, arabic, pashtun, mandarin, etc, etc) either through a inservice course or on your own time."

plus the reference below and you get a purely pragmatic decision by NDHQ

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dol/docs/pdf/OL_Transformation_Model_e.pdf


----------



## x-zipperhead

MCG said:
			
		

> I know of at least on that was never provided/offered the training despite having no ability in the other language.



I stand corrected.  Would this be more of an exception than the rule?  Or is there a large segment of the officer corps with no SLT?


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Baden Guy- excellent find!

x-zipperhead- the vast majority of Regular Force Officers have at least some second language trg.  They either got it at RMC, during summer at St Jean, or immediately following BOTC.  Some have more trg, having attended block courses or year-long courses.


----------



## McG

x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> Would this be more of an exception than the rule?


The exception (or so I think)



			
				x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> .. is there a large segment of the officer corps with no SLT?


I don't think so, but I believe there are many getting passed over for promotion because they will not be given the time/trg to maintain (or develop) this skill.


----------



## combatbuddha

Read the documentation from the ADM(HR) site.
It helped with my insomnia, and also gives a translucent (not especially clear) picture of the demographics involved.
Again I fall back to the Edmonton based MCpl Wrench bender, who would make Sgt Rock look like Beetle Bailey, but can't move beyond that level because SLT has never been within his grasp, for he has been deployed on 4 operational tours, 3 brigade exercises and left to train 14 QL4 crafties on his own as his peers are either on category, retirement slump or are Franco and trying to learn English. deeeeeep breath. Just saw the Ron James show and can only dream of such becoming the master of poetry as is he.
(This ain't my situation, as I am an EO Tech in Shilo, love my job and will continue to strive for my third banana knowing that I WILL get it through merit, hard work and profesional competence (and hopefully attrition  ;D)


----------



## x-zipperhead

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Baden Guy- excellent find!
> 
> x-zipperhead- the vast majority of Regular Force Officers have at least some second language trg.  They either got it at RMC, during summer at St Jean, or immediately following BOTC.  Some have more trg, having attended block courses or year-long courses.



Thanks SeaKingTacco.  That's kind of what I thought but wanted to stay in my lane.

Baden Guy, that is a good find.  Lot's of good info.  I did notice my eyes start to glaze over after a few pages though ;D.  After skimming the rest I found a key paragraph that I find to be quite pertinent to this thread (merit boards and second language" points")  

"*Para 54.      End-to-End Review of CF Human Resources Policies and Processes*

           e.  *Revision of CF Merit Board Second Language Ability Scores*  Policies regarding the awarding of Second Language Ability Scores in the CF merit and promotion process must be rewritten to reinforce the priorities established in the Official Languages Program Transformation Model.  For example, scoring should be weighted at the rank levels targeted by the leadership-related requirements.  Higher scores may be awarded for bilingualism in service oriented occupations in which second language ability forms an integral part of the career profile, or for individuals serving in bilingual functions.  The public Service recently began considering bilingual ability to be a "core competency" demanded of employees serving in bilingual positions, and a similar approach should be considered by the CF.  It is critical that the number of points awarded for bilingualism be allocated so as not to place at a disadvantage those military members who have not been given the opportunity to become bilingual (or who are serving in unilingual functions).  For individual who do not serve in bilingual functions or occupations, potential points related to linguistic ability may be allocated as an element related potential, in a manner similar to the way in which post-secondary education is considered;"

How are the points for Second Language Ability awarded at present?  If not potential is it under performance? 

Let's just consider those individuals, for a moment , who are not in "service oriented occupations" or in bilingual positions.  That is to say members performing in positions where bilingualism is not a "core competency".  This document seems to recognize the fact that you are placing those individuals at a career disadvantage by awarding points for linguistic ability even where Second Language Ability is not a requirement and the member has not been given the opportunity or training to become bilingual.  It seems the suggested solution is to award the points under "potential"  rather than whatever the current practice is (?).  I don't see how this would level the playing field at all.  I fail to see how awarding extra points (wherever you allocate them) for a skill that is not taught, nor opportunity given to learn, can do anything but put the member at a career disadvantage.  At the same time, if a promotion would see that person move into a bilingual position, it would be difficult to argue that their Second Language Ability should not form part of their potential.


----------



## aesop081

x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> How are the points for Second Language Ability awarded at present?  If not potential is it under performance?



As per our career manager brief this afternoon

60 points Performance
38 points potential
2 points language


----------



## PPCLI Guy

x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> I fail to see how awarding extra points (wherever you allocate them) for a skill that is not taught, nor opportunity given to learn, can do anything but put the member at a career disadvantage.



Most ranks get points for mobility as weel - you know - having moved recently.  Points for employment, for the tech Course etc.  iI is not at all an uneven playing field, as it is applied equally to all.


----------



## x-zipperhead

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> As per our career manager brief this afternoon
> 
> 60 points Performance
> 38 points potential
> 2 points language



Thanks.  So you had the Career Mangler out there today, eh?  You getting posted to St. Jean next year because of a lack of bilingual AES Ops to fill the billet? ;D just kidding.  Don't lose it on me.



			
				PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> Most ranks get points for mobility as weel - you know - having moved recently.  Points for employment, for the tech Course etc.  iI is not at all an uneven playing field, as it is applied equally to all.



Not sure I follow you.  Are you saying that people get extra points on their PER for getting posted?  If so, I've never heard of that.  Points for employment and courses taken I believe would fall under "performance".  I don't see how any of these things relate to Language points.


----------



## aesop081

x-zipperhead said:
			
		

> Thanks.  So you had the Career Mangler out there today, eh?  You getting posted to St. Jean next year because of a lack of bilingual AES Ops to fill the billet? ;D just kidding.  Don't lose it on me.



My friend thats not funny....not even as a joke  ;D.....few people are posted, PM me if you want to know but i'm sure its going to make the RUMINT circuit soon.  I didnt take an interview with him because i dont want him to know my name or my face.


----------



## x-zipperhead

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> My friend thats not funny....not even as a joke  ;D.....few people are posted, PM me if you want to know but i'm sure its going to make the RUMINT circuit soon.  I didnt take an interview with him because i dont want him to know my name or my face.



I'm just pulling your chain.  Actually, I'm pretty sure you're safe .  That billet was filled by an FE from here this year.  I hear ya about the interview, I didn't bother last year for the same reason.


----------



## aesop081

Again, speaking of our glorious CM.......

You get points for a language profile that is 5 years old or less.  If your profile is older than that, you get nadda.  The only way around the 5 year limit is if you have EEE as your profile.


----------



## x-zipperhead

It's all the same to this unilingual slob


----------



## El Gerco

cdnaviator said:
			
		

> As per our career manager brief this afternoon
> 
> 60 points Performance
> 38 points potential
> 2 points language



As it has always been as 60/38/2 !!  Makes a guy want to run out and volunteer for the year long "pain in the a**" course for those extra 2 points. No thanks


----------



## SupersonicMax

Pain in the ass?  What about you learn something new and guess what, you are paid for it...

Max


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Max,

It is not really wise to take that tone with Master Warrant Officers (notwithstanding that there really is no rank of Army.ca), especially as a 2LT.

Secondly, I have taken the year-long course and, while I did learn a valuable second language, the course really is a pain in the @ss- there is no sugar coating that part.


----------



## El Gerco

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Pain in the ***?  What about you learn something new and guess what, you are paid for it...
> 
> Max


Max, I have 23 Years in ( with lots to more to go), all my postings in BC, Ontario, Germany, and New Brunswick, tours in Kuwait, Croatia , Bosnia X3 and one in Afghanistan. I've never needed french, and because my french peers will never leave 5 RGC, I will never be posted there.    
The army pays me to be a Combat Engineer. Period.  The pain in the A** comment is my opinion, and I'm sure shared by many Anglo's, but I can only speak for myself. Last point , if I need advise WRT my career progression, I'll talk to my CM, and BTW if you are truly concerned, he tells me I am doing just fine. Thanks for the concern, but stick to your lane.


----------



## SupersonicMax

It just pisses me off seeing people not caring more about the second OFFICIAL language... Especially as a MWO.  You don't do it for the 2 pts on the PER, but for personnel development.  Anyways, that's the way I saw things when I learned English and Spanish at a younger age...  I didn't do it to have a check in the box, but to improve my person...  A second (and more) language is never useless...  But again, this is my opinion.

Max


----------



## x-zipperhead

MuddyoldSpr said:
			
		

> Max, I have 23 Years in ( with lots to more to go), all my postings in BC, Ontario, Germany, and New Brunswick, tours in Kuwait, Croatia , Bosnia X3 and one in Afghanistan. I've never needed french, and because my french peers will never leave 5 RGC, I will never be posted there.
> The army pays me to be a Combat Engineer. Period.  The pain in the A** comment is my opinion, and I'm sure shared by many Anglo's, but I can only speak for myself. Last point , if I need advise WRT my career progression, I'll talk to my CM, and BTW if you are truly concerned, he tells me I am doing just fine. Thanks for the concern, but stick to your lane.



MuddyoldSpr,

You are a living testament to the point I was trying make here earlier.  Although my career has not been as long or varied as your's to date, I too have not found myself, as of yet, in a position where I truly needed it.  I even work in a "bilingual" unit and still seem to manage just fine.  

Edited for typo


----------



## McG

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> You don't do it for the 2 pts on the PER, but for personnel development.


Regardless of why one does it, it becomes a pain when you are regularly reminded that you need to do this but we will not give you the time to do it.


----------



## SupersonicMax

I totally agree with the fact that you should be given the time to do it.  I don't know about the Army and Navy, but from what I see so far in the AF, most people can get OPMEs and SLT pretty easily.  Why won't your organisation let you do it??

Max


----------



## honestyrules

It is pretty hard for Combat arms types to get course loaded on SLT. At the regiment, I know quite a few guys who put in for French course and it doesn't fly. Of course I'm not talking about MWOs or CWOs. Them higher ops will get it eventually.

Even for French speaking members of an English/Billingual unit, it is really hard to get an English course at the Pte/Cpl level. I don't know anybody who got it. I got an English course myself (5 weeks), but I'm no Cbt Arms. Of course it was easier for me to pick it up, I'm immersed in the language...

I didn't do it for the points, but to be functional at work.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Thanks for the answer.  I think it should be part of the initial Traning (with BMQ, SQ) do to 5-6 weeks of SLT (unless you've been tested and got Bs).  Even though it might not be usefull, I think it opens the mind to other cultures.

Max


----------



## vonGarvin

I'm in an officially bilingual unit, and I attempt to use French whenever possible (English is my first language).  In French, I get by: barely.  In terms of having to actually use MY second language in situations where it was needed, that happened in A'stan.
I was assigned to command an element of an OP due to a "situation".  The other members of said OP were from the Bundeswehr (The armed forces of The Federal Republic of Germany).  "Don't worry about them" we were all told prior to deployment.  "Their second language is English".  Unfortunately, these particular soldiers were from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern or Thüringen, and grew up learning Russian as a second language.  Fortunately, MY second language is German, and I was able to converse with these guys in their native tongue.  How good was my German? As one Landser said to me "Did you put on the wrong uniform today?"  In other words, I could pass for a German to a German.  
I also used my German about everyday during my 3 month stint in A'stan.  Do I get PER points?  No.  Do I care?  No.  Do I feel more competant as a soldier for being able to speak at least some French, in spite of it being MY third language?  You're G**damned right I do!  So, suck it up, watch La Soiree du Hockey en Canada on the SRC on Saturdays instead of Hockey Night in Canada, and FORCE yourselves to watch Bleu Nuit even!  There are opportunities outside of SLT (read: mandated or "PER merited French training") where you can learn to speak French.  Trust me, it's easier than you think.  And if you at least try, you'll gain oodles of respect, not just from your fellow *Garvins, but also from your fellow Canadians.

That is all



*Garvin = "Comrade in Battle", according to some name book I read once.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Hauptmann Scharlachrot said:
			
		

> I'm in an officially bilingual unit, and I attempt to use French whenever possible (English is my first language).  In French, I get by: barely.  In terms of having to actually use MY second language in situations where it was needed, that happened in A'stan.
> I was assigned to command an element of an OP due to a "situation".  The other members of said OP were from the Bundeswehr (The armed forces of The Federal Republic of Germany).  "Don't worry about them" we were all told prior to deployment.  "Their second language is English".  Unfortunately, these particular soldiers were from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern or Thüringen, and grew up learning Russian as a second language.  Fortunately, MY second language is German, and I was able to converse with these guys in their native tongue.  How good was my German? As one Landser said to me "Did you put on the wrong uniform today?"  In other words, I could pass for a German to a German.
> I also used my German about everyday during my 3 month stint in A'stan.  Do I get PER points?  No.  Do I care?  No.  Do I feel more competant as a soldier for being able to speak at least some French, in spite of it being MY third language?  You're G**damned right I do!  So, suck it up, watch La Soiree du Hockey en Canada on the SRC on Saturdays instead of Hockey Night in Canada, and FORCE yourselves to watch Bleu Nuit even!  There are opportunities outside of SLT (read: mandated or "PER merited French training") where you can learn to speak French.  Trust me, it's easier than you think.  And if you at least try, you'll gain oodles of respect, not just from your fellow *Garvins, but also from your fellow Canadians.
> 
> That is all
> 
> 
> 
> *Garvin = "Comrade in Battle", according to some name book I read once.



Thanks for your input.  I think you made the point I was trying to make.  

Off Topic :  Where did you learn your German?

Max


----------



## honestyrules

When I deployed to Haiti in 2004, I had the opportunity to go off camp quite a bit with the LPO (Sgt Supply tech). Him an English fellow, he got on the SLT (year long one) a year before deployment. As everybody knows, Haiti's language is Creole/French. That Sgt did good on his course, cause I'm telling you, he picked it up pretty good. He could get by pretty much everything thrown at him.

I guess everything is a matter of interrest.If you go on a course to get your 2 points, it will be a pain. If you do it for yourself, you'll pick it up, I promise.  I, (being French), offered a lot of my comrades to teach them the basics, just for the sake of it. Nobody went for it. But those people are the same ones complaining about the "2 points" thing on the merit board. 

I know it's hard to learn a second language, I know first hand. That's the reason why I sent my little one to English school, so she won't have to go through the same stuff as me.

Maybe some would ever try to ask for a posting in the second official language area. I did on a purpose and I don't regret it at all. My wife was a little upset in the first place, but now she's doing fine.


----------



## El Gerco

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> It just pisses me off seeing people not caring more about the second OFFICIAL language... Especially as a MWO.  You don't do it for the 2 pts on the PER, but for personnel development.  Anyways, that's the way I saw things when I learned English and Spanish at a younger age...  I didn't do it to have a check in the box, but to improve my person...  A second (and more) language is never useless...  But again, this is my opinion.
> 
> Max


I don't believe that I have ever used my rank on any posts ( the MODS can correct me on that), yes it is in my profile but I have never said MWO this MWO that,  and I did not use yours in relyping. Please refrain form that in the future.  Final point Max, all who know me, know I speak 3 languages, with a little German thrown in. You presume far too much. Just cause I see this as a pain in the a** don't attempt to paint me as some has been who does not care about his personnel development. At this stage in my career I assist my superiors in the development of our younger Sappers.  And the only place you will find me sharing my opinion of the course is on this site. Again, stay in your lane.


----------



## CasperTr11

Good day all!

I have a question for anyone that may be able to answer it.  I'd speak with my file manager at the recruiting center but I want to give her a break.  She has been a great help.

First my situation.  I have accepted an offer for pilot and will be going to St. Jean in April for basic.  I know that there is a strong possibility that I'll continue doing SLT in St.Jean after I am done basic in August.  My question is while on SLT are candidates allowed to live off base in their own accomodation.  I have a wife and five month old child and would love to move them out there (on my dime) if that is possible.

To satisfy the "focus on the matter at hand son and don't get too far ahead of yourself" people I acknowledge that nothing is guaranteed.  I plan on working hard at basic.  I want to plan in the event that I am successful and have to do SLT.

Also, if I have posted this to the wrong forum let me know.

Cheers,
CasperTr11


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Yes, you can live-out while on SLT here in sunny St-Jean, both single and married people on the SLT running now are.  There are no PMQs here so to speak, the closest ones are in St-Hubert, however I have no idea what they are like or availability.  Currenty, SLT students that are living-in are staying at Campus Fort St-Jean, 5 km's from the Mega and down by the river as every available space in the Mega is being put to use for BMQs and IAP/BOTPs.

Be prepared to rent a place that has NO appliances.  Most apartments here don't even have a fridge and stove in them, from the week or so I spent looking.

If/when you get here and need some help, the MFRC that is located on the garrison is excellent.  They will speak to owners who do not speak English, help you go thru the adds, stuff like that.  They were very helpful for me.  You can find the contacts online, just Google MFRC Montreal.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Meridian

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Yes, you can live-out while on SLT here in sunny St-Jean, both single and married people on the SLT running now are.  There are no PMQs here so to speak, the closest ones are in St-Hubert, however I have no idea what they are like or availability.  Currenty, SLT students that are living-in are staying at Campus Fort St-Jean, 5 km's from the Mega and down by the river as every available space in the Mega is being put to use for BMQs and IAP/BOTPs.



I take it the PMQs at CFSJ are off limits/unavail?  (There arent all that many anyway)


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

Meridian said:
			
		

> I take it the PMQs at CFSJ are off limits/unavail?  (There arent all that many anyway)



All I know is that they aren't PMQs are per say anymore, they are not controlled by CFHA, they are property of the city.


----------



## SupersonicMax

When we do our annual RMC Broomball tournament in St-Jean, we rent a Q for a few days.  I don't know if you can do that or not...  One of my friend came back from OPMEs in St-Jean and was living in a Q during his OPME.  I'll try to ask him about it tomorrow at work.

Max


----------



## CasperTr11

Mud Recce Man,

Thanks for the information.  One thing that my wife and I are looking at is buying a little house out there for the duration of SLT.  I know that the military won't pay for her to move out there but we are willing to eat the expense. We're a little fortunate in that we've built up a fair chunk of equity in our present house.  Just an idea.  What is the housing market like there?

Casper


----------



## Roy Harding

CasperTr11 said:
			
		

> ...  We're a little fortunate in that we've built up a fair chunk of equity in our present house.  Just an idea.  What is the housing market like there?
> 
> Casper



Wonderful resource:  http://www.mls.ca 

My wife and I used it extensively prior to moving here to Terrace.

(Sorry for the hijack - back to the topic)


----------



## 17thRecceSgt

CasperTr11 said:
			
		

> Mud Recce Man,
> 
> Thanks for the information.  One thing that my wife and I are looking at is buying a little house out there for the duration of SLT.  I know that the military won't pay for her to move out there but we are willing to eat the expense. We're a little fortunate in that we've built up a fair chunk of equity in our present house.  Just an idea.  What is the housing market like there?
> 
> Casper



That, I have no idea about to be honest.  I didn't look at buying, as I am here temporarily.  Sorry on that one, anything I said would be a guess.


----------



## dimsum

Hi all,

I've been hearing rumours about this for quite some time that SLT will be taken out (or at least highly restricted) at the end of this FY...ie no more courses.  Normally it wouldn't affect me, except that my CT message (cut in end-Feb) has me posted to St. Jean for SLT in mid April.  Anyone else in this boat or have any insight into if it's true or not?  

Thanks!


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

I would think if the posting msg is allready cut then it's likely a done deal, that said, nothing surprizes me in this outfit anymore.


----------



## Quag

I'm confused.  Being bilingual is a requirement for officers that wish to be Major and above.  How can they cut this out if it is a requirement?


----------



## mudrecceman

Quag said:
			
		

> I'm confused.  Being bilingual is a requirement for officers that wish to be Major and above.  How can they cut this out if it is a requirement?



By adding it later in your career, if you are being prep'd for promotion to Maj.

The thought is if you get your profile while a 2Lt...how much of it do you remember, if you haven't been posted to a french unit, come time for your Majors?  

Another factor, apparantly, is they want to get people thru their actual MOC training first.  Makes sense, actually.  The CF could pump all that training, groceries and time into you, where you get your profile which is good across the Federal government, and then fail out of say CAP or something like that...best bang for the tax payers buck?  IMO, no.

So its not "cut out" it is "shuffled down the career path".


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

My troop commander I guess you would call him (he's a jimmy) just did his, doing the 2 hrs aday thing in the lab here in Esq and he's a Capt


----------



## Quag

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> By adding it later in your career, if you are being prep'd for promotion to Maj.
> 
> The thought is if you get your profile while a 2Lt...how much of it do you remember, if you haven't been posted to a french unit, come time for your Majors?
> 
> Another factor, apparantly, is they want to get people thru their actual MOC training first.  Makes sense, actually.  The CF could pump all that training, groceries and time into you, where you get your profile which is good across the Federal government, and then fail out of say CAP or something like that...best bang for the tax payers buck?  IMO, no.
> 
> So its not "cut out" it is "shuffled down the career path".



Seen.  For once, the CF actually makes sense ;D.  This could save alot of money for those that decide to be "career Captains" and those that decide to VR or are released before Major.


----------



## mudrecceman

Roger, and bear in mind, this is just what the current SLTs were told the "thought process" was.  They were also told they were the last batch "on mass" to do SLT, so its appears that after IAP/BOTP, some will go, some won't, depending on the needs of their MOC and the CF.

But I agree, it makes sense.  Hence, why it probably won't happen.   ;D


----------



## sigpig

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Another factor, apparantly, is they want to get people thru their actual MOC training first.  Makes sense, actually.  The CF could pump all that training, groceries and time into you, where you get your profile which is good across the Federal government, and then fail out of say CAP or something like that...best bang for the tax payers buck?  IMO, no.



When they started this, some time after I went a year straight of phase training, I wondered how they could justify sending all those people from botc to language trg when it's known that many classifications have a fairly high failure rate. I thought they seemed to be giving a lot of free second language training - mostly french for anglo types, to people who would become civies, thus wasting a lot of time and money.

Also, as noted, people who took french trg early in their careers and rarely, if ever, used it again, will lose it. Lots of money and effort wasted in an effort to politically keep a certain province happy.


----------



## Quag

sigpig said:
			
		

> Also, as noted, people who took french trg early in their careers and rarely, if ever, used it again, will lose it. Lots of money and effort wasted in an effort to politically keep a certain province happy.



While I sense the sarcasm in your tone, we are still a bilingual *COUNTRY*, and as being such, many workerse of the public service should be required to speak both *official* languages.


----------



## George Wallace

Quag said:
			
		

> While I sense the sarcasm in your tone, we are still a bilingual *COUNTRY*, and as being such, many workerse of the public service should be required to speak both *official* languages.



Not to set off any backlash, but you are wrong.  Many workers of the Public Service do not have to deal with the Pubic in both languages.  Only in the National Capital Region will you find many Civil Servants who have to deal with the public in both Official Languages.  These services are not offered in Quebec.  It is not really required much in the Western provinces.  It is hardly required in most of the Atlantic provinces.  The fact is that the vast majority of Public Service workers have no contact with the Public at all.  

Take the large number of IT personnel in the Public Service.  Their language (Programming Languages) is English.  Why are they forced to become Bilingual in order that their job can be redesignated as a "Bilingual Position" and they will be required to be tested annually for their language proficiency in French?  If they pass in order for the Government to declare their position "Bilingual Essential", and then fail the Language Test in a following year, they are laid off.  Does this seem fair and just?  I think not.  It is another visual case of catering to a very vocal and spoiled minority and is the cause of much consternation in the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Civil Services.  It, if you want to wear a tinfoil hat, equates to the Francofication of Canada.  And people wonder why our Nation is so screwed up in the way it is governed and managed.


----------



## sigpig

George Wallace said:
			
		

> It is not really required much in the Western provinces.  It is hardly required in most of the Atlantic provinces.



I grew up in Halifax and then moved to Calgary  .  I did well in my high school french courses and scored superior on the mlat, but again, living in the east then the west I had no need for french whatsoever and totally lost the little I had.

I don't mean to bash the french language or Quebecers, but I do believe the current policy is wasteful and not needed. As an officer, I never met a francophone in the forces who couldn't at least function minimally in english. For a french speaker to expect to function in the rest of Canada, some knowledge of english is essential. Anglophones, at least in my experience, can function quite well in all of Canada except Quebec, the Ottawa region, and some small places in NB  

Again, don't mean to bash, just to state what I think are the realities. We could find a lot of better uses for all the money that gets poured into the sacred cow of bilingualism.


----------



## Quag

I don't think that I am as wrong as you might think.  Look at the density of public service workers in the NCR and you will see that it makes up a significant amount of the employed public service workers.

Furthur, a 2002 study of public service employees found that 92 percent of public service employees agree that it is important for them to serve the public in both official languages.

[/quote]





			
				George Wallace said:
			
		

> Only in the National Capital Region will you find many Civil Servants who have to deal with the public in both Official Languages.  These services are not offered in Quebec.  It is not really required much in the Western provinces.  It is hardly required in most of the Atlantic provinces.  The fact is that the vast majority of Public Service workers have no contact with the Public at all.



Well, Halifax, Saint John, Quebec, Sherbrooke, Montreal, Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catharines-Niagara, Kitchener, Windsor, Sudbury, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver are just some of the many "metropolis" areas that are REQUIRED to offer bilingual services.  That covers the Atlantic and the West I'd say.

George, I understand where your sentiment lies, and especially in cases such as the one you give about he IT specialist, but I do not feel that this should waive the fact that our country needs to be bilingual.


----------



## muffin

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Take the large number of IT personnel in the Public Service.  Their language (Programming Languages) is English.  Why are they forced to become Bilingual in order that their job can be redesignated as a "Bilingual Position" and they will be required to be tested annually for their language proficiency in French?  If they pass in order for the Government to declare their position "Bilingual Essential", and then fail the Language Test in a following year, they are laid off.  Does this seem fair and just?  I think not.  It is another visual case of catering to a very vocal and spoiled minority and is the cause of much consternation in the Federal, Provincial and Municipal Civil Services.  It, if you want to wear a tinfoil hat, equates to the Francofication of Canada.  And people wonder why our Nation is so screwed up in the way it is governed and managed.



I am in a PS IT position and all the CS positions here are English Essential - only once you hit the senior levels (CS3, CS4) you may be required to work with French because you are dealing more outside your "trade" - also  anyone who works with the web has to know french because Treasury Board policy states that all sites must be in both languages. In my experience, regardless of the province,  any public service job that requires interaction with the public (and that may not mean the general public - in my case the public is military members) is bilingual.

There is one point I want to clarify her ref the language testing - we do not retest every year. You only have to pass the test once when you compete for the possition and then again if you go to another position. Once you have been deemed to meet the requirements of the job you cannot be "fired" for losing those requried skills. 

Just about the only way to get rid of a Public Service Employee (who isn't on probation) is to declare his/her position redundant. 

Muffin


----------



## George Wallace

Quag said:
			
		

> Well, Halifax, Saint John, Quebec, Sherbrooke, Montreal, Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catharines-Niagara, Kitchener, Windsor, Sudbury, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver are just some of the many "metropolis" areas that are REQUIRED to offer bilingual services.  That covers the Atlantic and the West I'd say.



I think "REQUIRED" is a key word here.  Not really necessary, but forced upon them by legislated "Official Bilingualism".  

This is a policy that I see as a dismal failure and the downfall of this Nation.  Forcing people to do things is not right.  Forcing the majority do things and leaving a minority to get away with doing nothing is discrimination.  

I believe that it is a good thing for people to become bilingual, or even better, multilingual.  I do not agree with "enforced policies" to do so.  It disenfranchises many very qualified and competent people from positions that place more emphasis on language (specifically French in the majority of cases) than on merit.  

In the end it is a form of reverse discrimination and a great tax on the revenues required to run this country.  (Have you ever looked at the results of the "Translation Business" in this country: the costs of translation, the costs of printing 2 to 3 times more pages in publications; the costs of correcting incorrectly translated terminology; the costs of a whole bureaucracy with only one function, of which they are not proficient at; and of course patronage?)

Muffin

In NCR, CS positions are currently English Essential, but there is a movement afoot to gradually change them to Bilingual positions, once the person holding that position has been language tested and a Bilingual Profile established.  Unless you have scored an Exempt on your language profile, you will be retested every couple of years.  Even in the CF, your language profile is only supposed to be good for five years.


----------



## armyvern

Quag said:
			
		

> Well, Halifax, Saint John, Quebec, Sherbrooke, Montreal, Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, St. Catharines-Niagara, Kitchener, Windsor, Sudbury, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver are just some of the many "metropolis" areas that are REQUIRED to offer bilingual services.  That covers the Atlantic and the West I'd say.



Yes, here in New Brunswick everything from Municipal, Provincial, to Federal, right down to the walk-in clinics are required to be able to provide service in both official languages. New Brunswick is still, as far as I can recall, the only officially bilingual Province in the country.

The mother tongues of the NB population mandate this requirement...everywhere you would go; not just the big 'metropolis'.


----------



## GAP

I think you will find Manitoba is also...it has a large francophone community.


----------



## Jammer

"You're wit da Van Doos now!!!
"Dis is a french only net!!!"
They said at the PRT........


----------



## Quag

Once again, this is just my opinion. 

But given the obvious fact that our country is much more bilingual than you might have thought George (ref your comment about the Atlantic and Western areas of Canada), don't you think it is important to make it REQUIRED for government services to be in both official languages.  

The only way I see around this issue, is to remove French as one of our official languages...and I cannot see that ever happening).  Much of our heritage and history in Canada is owed to France and French colonies (and I know other European settlers, the British etc...)


----------



## Zoomie

This new policy will most likely only affect the incoming anglo students - francophone Officer's will still be required to have a sufficiently high English profile.  All professional Airforce courses are only taught in English.


----------



## vigillis

Being in SQFT (that's LFQA for the rest of you) I have seen many a soldier leave because their posting options were quite limited.  In fact I know of many people who have spent their last 17 years based out of Valcatraz.  Not because they wanted to, but because they could not get SLT, nor posted to an Anglo unit.  A soldier from a small Quebec village wants to see the world and Canada just as much as anyone one else, but no English no choice.  

I see SLT as a possible ASD service or educational option for the lower rank levels.  Spr Bloggins signs up for his SLT or any other operational language course I might add, passes the Fed gov't tests, gets reimbursed and his/her proficiency is noted on his/her pers file.  Those who wants to excel and learn do so, those who do not stay where they are.  Only those reaching a high enough rank gets put on the mandatory course, and here the crux, THEN GETS POSTED TO A UNIT OR AREA OF THE LANGUAGE THEY LEARNED!!!  The best way to keep up your language skills is to stay immersed in it.    

Before you start jumping up and down like organ grinder monkeys, screeching about the family situation and the such, there are more English speaking people here in the belle province than you might have thought, and there are job opportunities for Anglos, and not only in Montreal.  Those with young kids get them jumping off earlier and a child's ability to learn a second and third language is best while they are toddlers.  My friend's son speaks three language, and looks at me like I am an idiot when he asks me a question in German, he is now five years old.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

Zoomie said:
			
		

> This new policy will most likely only affect the incoming anglo students - francophone Officer's will still be required to have a sufficiently high English profile.  All professional Airforce courses are only taught in English.



The likely reason for this is that all international airports and vessel traffic reporting is conducted in English (ITU Regulations) as it is the most widely spoken language in the world, 

I will say that Anglo mbrs of the military (especially in the Navy) are at a disadvantage, prior to being loaded on a QL3 course (the majority here are taught in english only) the Franco mbrs go on a 10 week language course, I have been fighting for nearly 10 years to get a french course, no dice, so even if a "lower decker" wants a SLT profile they find themselves doing it on thier own time disadvantaging thier families


----------



## George Wallace

Quag said:
			
		

> Once again, this is just my opinion.
> 
> But given the obvious fact that our country is much more bilingual than you might have thought George (ref your comment about the Atlantic and Western areas of Canada), don't you think it is important to make it REQUIRED for government services to be in both official languages.
> 
> The only way I see around this issue, is to remove French as one of our official languages...and I cannot see that ever happening).  Much of our heritage and history in Canada is owed to France and French colonies (and I know other European settlers, the British etc...)



You are entitled to your opinion, and again I will say you are wrong again.  I have lived across this country and I know darn well that there are "French" communities spread across Canada.  I can also tell you that they all might as well all be from Louisiana, as there really is "NO" French in Canada.  It is not the French of France (even in Quebec).  All these small Franco communities spread across the land all have their little idiosyncrasies.  Have you spoken to a person from Edmundston, New Brunswick?  Is that French or English or neither?  French in St Bonniface is different again.  So is French in PEI, as is French in Saskatchewan, and Alberta.  What say you of the French in Vancouver.  I really don't care about your little game, when the French speaking population of this nation is greatly out numbered, not only by the English, but by Mandarine speaking citizens.  French is almost a "Dead Language".   ;D

On a more serious note, as was stated:  English is the Language of the Air.  English is the language of the Sea.  English is the language of Business.  English is the language of IT.  French arrogance, (not in Quebec, but in France) is trying to save their language from extinction, rather than accepting the creation of common new words to describe many of the advances in Science.  Just because it was Bill Gates and gang who came up with new words and terminology to discribe IT discoveries, doesn't mean that it is an English invasion of their language.  However, this opens up a whole new aspect of the conversation, and totally derails the topic of a New SLT Policy.  

A few very good answers have been given as to the waste of money on the SLT if members later leave the CF as Trg Failures in Career or Trades Crses.  This could well be the main reasoning behind any such changes.


----------



## mudrecceman

As a side note, NCMs can apply to take "part-time" SLT as part of their work day.  I know of only one myself, but I know he does go to SLT for 2 hours each day.  IIRC, he has to complete the first 5 (of 15 I think) modules before he is able to apply to take the "year long" course.  But this is part of his work day, from 1000-1200 hrs daily.

As for the discussion about why, I think George is correct in that you have to be test every 5 years to maintain your profile, and most young Officers (most) probably don't serve with a Fanco unit.  I know of a few exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions.  I believe (not sure) that most, if not all, Field grade officers (Major +) are expected to get a profile.  I know my previous CO, an Arty LCol of the Reg Frce flavour, was spending considerable time at work and on weekends working on his, as it was required for his next job/rank or something of that nature.  

If you look at it from a fiscally responsible standpoint, I think that the CF is being proactive in ensuring that the "Officers in training" pass their REQUIRED MOC training, first.  This does a few things.  1, it puts more people into the system that are employable.  We are stretched alittle thin, no?  2, it makes sure we aren't using up needed $$ on Officers that don't make it to the "qualified" level in their MOC.  Some of these trainees will VR, some will VOT or be re-assigned.  3?  It just makes sense.

I think of it as sending a Trooper on his Crew Commander course before sending them on a PCF, and that wouldn't make sense no would it?  So it seems like one other thing that is being turned in the right direction under the watchful eye of General Hillier and his senior staff.  

 ;D


----------



## Happydiver

Everything I could find points to no more SLT for most new Anglo officers coming off IAP/BOTP but does anyone have hard Intel/messages on whether or not SLT is being canned for new courses just starting up in St Jean?  I spoke with my recruiting center in Vancouver today and they couldn't give me an answer.

Here is the link to the 'National Defence Official Languages Program Transformation Model - 25 Oct 2006'.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dol/Engraph/TransModel_TOC_e.asp

Here is the link to the Auditor General's *1990* report on how bilingualism was going in the CF back then.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/dol/docs/pdf/AnnexA_TransModel_e.pdf

The 1990 report and the new 2006 Policy make for interesting reading and reflect my personal experiences in regards to this particular piece of social engineering promulgated by the late Mr. Trudeau and successive 'politically correct' governments.  Words like flawed, failure and prohibitive cost pop up throughout the Auditor General's report.

It's also interesting to hear all the old arguments that haven't changed a bit since the mid 80's when myself and my English contemporaries were doing SLT in St Jean.  We agree with the Auditor General from back then and with the new policy being put in place now.  It's a waste of time and money mass training junior members just after Basic and before their MOC training.  Give CF members SLT training when and where they appropriately need it later on in their careers.

Personally, I'm rejoining to become a pilot not to speak another language that I have little chance of needing any time soon.  My time straight after IAP/BOTP could be put to a lot better use if I didn't have to attend a 33 week SLT course in St Jean.


----------



## mudrecceman

Happydiver said:
			
		

> Everything I could find points to no more SLT for most new Anglo officers coming off IAP/BOTP but does anyone have hard Intel/messages on whether or not SLT is being canned for new courses just starting up in St Jean?



Doesn't the first part of your sentence answer the second part?  My S/O is on SLT now, and this current group (Grads of BOTP last December) were told that they are the last IAP/BOTP course to take SLT "in mass".

Thats all I know from my end.

I suspect the folks on BOTP now will soon be asking the same questions to their CoC if they weren't already told, let me ask my S/O when she calls, as there is someone on BOTP now that was a Medical recourse from her Platoon last fall.


----------



## aesop081

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> As for the discussion about why, I think George is correct in that you have to be test every 5 years to maintain your profile,



Every 5 years unless your profile is EEE


----------



## Patrolman

I attended a BPSO briefing today in Gagetown and the SLT issue came up. One of the PSO's stated she had set on a selection board last week in Esquimalt for Mars officers and that SLT training for them, would only occur after they became fully qualified in their trade. She along with the other PSO's speculated that this would also become the case for other trades. The reasoning behind it was money,time and resources wasted at an early stage in a career, when there was still plenty of opportunity for someone be unsuccessful in the CF.


----------



## hercboy

Was in a briefing not too long ago and this topic came up.  We were told as of April 07 no more SLT right after BOTP, with certain exceptions such as JAG s, because of this second language will no longer be a merit board consideration, I believe it was said as of Nov 07.


----------



## JesseWZ

I just got my posting message and on it I have BOTP May 7 -June 22 Immediatly followed by SLT till Aug 10.
My trade is infantry so it appears I still do SLT immediatly followed by SLT.


----------



## Quag

hercboy said:
			
		

> because of this second language will no longer be a merit board consideration,



Can you elaborate furthur on this? Are you saying that to get promoted to Major you no longer require a profile?


----------



## hercboy

We were told no more french, and the question was asked if its not offered to everyone then how will it reflect on the merit board.  The answer was simply it will no longer be part of the merit board.  However, that specific queston about promotions was not asked so I cant answer with 100% certainty.  I will let you draw your own conclusions from this.


----------



## dimsum

Unless I'm mistaken, SLT is offered for a 7-month block...?  

Also, if it's not offered to everyone, who *is* it offered to?  I only ask this b/c for some reason I'm posted SLT in St. Jean from 23 Apr - 07 Dec.


----------



## hercboy

There is specific trades which require a profile for example JAG s, and I would think that Franco pilots still must earn the necessary profile.  However, im not sure who exactly  requires it.  I know when I did it we had a couple of lawyers and they had to get a BBB, and Franco pilots had to get a certain profile before they left the friendly confines of the mega.  As for your posting I wouldnt know, but I have heard the same as someone else had mentioned that a class that has already started would be the last ones to go through, but that is second hand so take it for whats its worth.


----------



## mudrecceman

hercboy said:
			
		

> There is specific trades which require a profile for example JAG s, and I would think that Franco pilots still must earn the necessary profile.  However, im not sure who exactly  requires it.  I know when I did it we had a couple of lawyers and they had to get a BBB, and Franco pilots had to get a certain profile before they left the friendly confines of the mega.  As for your posting I wouldnt know, but I have heard the same as someone else had mentioned that a class that has already started would be the last ones to go through, but that is second hand so take it for whats its worth.



That second hand info is from my S/O, who was told this, along with the others on SLTnow, in the Theater in the Mega a short while ago.

Unless you have better info...


----------



## aecami

I am curious about the likeliness of being allowed to do SLT somewhere other than St. Jean?  Has this been done?


----------



## Rowshambow

Good question aecami, I was going to ask to do it in Edmonton, as the language school there has a year long french couse.
I should elaborate, I am going officer and instead of being away from my family for longer than needed I was going to ask to do it here. I know some SSM's and other ranks that have done it in Edmonton, but it's under different circumstances.


----------



## stealthylizard

Is SLT needed for certain NCM promotions?  I had heard years ago, that for a person to be promoted past Master Corporal, bilingualism was a requirement.  I am just wanting to know if this is, at present, still the case.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

no this is not the case, there are no requirements to have a second language profile for NCM's as yet my former carreer manager (seeing as I am CEOTP'd later this week) speculated it might be coming and his gues was at the P2/Sgt level, but as far as I know it is still just a rumour.

I know Venture does a SLT block out here in Esquimalt for all NCdts (except in the case of the new breed they seem to have scrapped that until later in the carreer path) and I agree with Recce, sending an officer on SLT before he/she is moc qual and has some experience with troops is kinda like giving him a HMG before he learns the C7 just not sensible or fiscally responsible either


----------



## Gunner98

Jammer said:
			
		

> "You're wit da Van Doos now!!!
> "Dis is a french only net!!!"
> They said at the PRT........



Unfortunately not all of the rest of the countries in ISAF speak Quebecois French.  I am not sure the locals and the ANA are fluent either.  This will be an interesting year in A'stan!

As for NCMs and Second Language profiles - it is important at the MWO rank and critical at the CWO for Base, Bde, Wg, formation appointments.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

agreed this is not so much a federal policy issue as a leadership issue, you should be able to lead your troops no matter which language they speak, and at the base CWO/CPO level you come into contact with both often


----------



## mudrecceman

In true military fashion, the plan to delay SLT for Officers is now changed again.   :

Apparantly, the folks just finishing BOTP are all headed to the Fort and CFLS now...

On the bus, off the bus...on the bus...

FWIW, it apparantly was a political decision, vice a military one.


----------



## dimsum

Wow.  That's a lot of people to be cramming into the Fort, n'est-ce pas?  And I was there wondering if I'd be the only one doing SLT...  ;D

Well, for whoever will be there, see you on the 23rd!  I'll be the guy who doesn't really remember how to wear combats and still adds in "Sub" before "Lieutenant" every other time I say my rank.  

Cheers!


----------



## xmarcx

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> In true military fashion, the plan to delay SLT for Officers is now changed again.   :
> 
> Apparantly, the folks just finishing BOTP are all headed to the Fort and CFLS now...
> 
> On the bus, off the bus...on the bus...
> 
> FWIW, it apparantly was a political decision, vice a military one.



We were told a few weeks before the course ended that most of us, especially combat arms trades and pilots, would be going straight to phase training, and we were all happy.
Then one day they handed us all posting messages to CFLS, and we were all sad.

We start getting fat, lazy, weak, and bilingual tomorrow morning


----------



## armyvern

xmarcx said:
			
		

> We start getting fat, lazy, weak, and bilingual tomorrow morning



Interesting. Too bad you weren't here this weekend. You just missed the _Scrap-booking Convention_ they had happening in the Dextraze Pavillion.  :-\

The gym here is actually not bad, nor is the food. I think I gained an ounce this week.   ;D


----------



## mudrecceman

Unless things have changed...SLT students are not allowed to eat or use the gym facilities on CFSJ...they have to go to the Mega.

However, folks that are at the NCM PD world at CFSJ can use them...again unless that has changed since...2 weeks ago...


----------



## Big Foot

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Interesting. Too bad you weren't here this weekend. You just missed the _Scrap-booking Convention_ they had happening in the Dextraze Pavillion.  :-\
> 
> The gym here is actually not bad, nor is the food. I think I gained an ounce this week.   ;D


Vern, did I hear you right? The food is not bad? lol. Man, how some things change... I remember it as being absolutely awful when I was there 3 years ago.


----------



## dapaterson

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> In true military fashion, the plan to delay SLT for Officers is now changed again.   :
> 
> Apparantly, the folks just finishing BOTP are all headed to the Fort and CFLS now...
> 
> On the bus, off the bus...on the bus...
> 
> FWIW, it apparantly was a political decision, vice a military one.



There are also production capacity issues in the schools - more people than places on various phase courses.  So, rather than have people twiddling their thumbs, some are being sent on SLT.


----------



## xmarcx

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> Unless things have changed...SLT students are not allowed to eat or use the gym facilities on CFSJ...they have to go to the Mega.
> 
> However, folks that are at the NCM PD world at CFSJ can use them...again unless that has changed since...2 weeks ago...



You are correct, the unwashed hordes of 2Lts can only use the food & gym facilities at the Mega. We have been given strict instructions to stay out of pretty much everything at the Fort except for our own beds, to keep us away from the young officer cadets and the grumpy senior NCOs.


----------



## armyvern

xmarcx said:
			
		

> You are correct, the unwashed hordes of 2Lts can only use the food & gym facilities at the Mega. We have been given strict instructions to stay out of pretty much everything at the Fort except for our own beds, to keep us away from the young officer cadets and the grumpy senior NCOs.



Yeah Ok, they sure as heck didn't miss the Mess though. Some, even bought this grumpy old Senior NCO a beer. 
Hey do you SLT guys actually have staff to make your beds too like we did? That little perk shocked the hell out of me.


----------



## mudrecceman

The Librarian said:
			
		

> Yeah Ok, they sure as heck didn't miss the Mess though. Some, even bought this grumpy old *Senior NCO * a beer.
> Hey do you SLT guys actually have staff to make your beds too like we did? That little perk shocked the hell out of me.



We all thought you are a WO. (because of your profile info of course)

A Snr NCO is a Sgt.  A WO isn't a Snr NCO, unless things have changed.  Hence the term "WOs and Sgt's Mess".  

Well, atleast, that is what was taught on my SLC (ILQ) back in 2002 anyways.  And my CLC in 1993...and...

Funny thing, this "paying attention to detail" thing.

But, what do I know.  I was only a Snr NCO for just about half my time in the CF.  

I am just a Cpl now.

MRM...out.


----------



## armyvern

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> We all thought you are a WO. (because of your profile info of course)
> 
> A Snr NCO is a Sgt.  A WO isn't a Snr NCO, unless things have changed.  Hence the term "WOs and Sgt's Mess".
> 
> Well, atleast, that is what was taught on my SLC (ILQ) back in 2002 anyways.  And my CLC in 1993...and...
> 
> Funny thing, this "paying attention to detail" thing.
> 
> But, what do I know.  I was only a Snr NCO for just about half my time in the CF.
> 
> I am just a Cpl now.
> 
> MRM...out.



Yes, I am well aware of what an NCM, Jr NCO/Snr NCO and WO are.

However, as the ILQ was loaded with WO's and the prep students are OCdts...and WE are all the ones who eat in the kitchen there and using the gym (ie the ones he was warned to stay away from)...I was quite sure that he was referring to us on course....his words were "grumpy Snr NCOs," and, in the context of personnel on the ILQ Course, his use of such is indeed correct.

And no things haven't changed. A WO on their ILQ (just like in the days of your SLC) is considered to be an A/L WO, thus, still legally only a SnrNCO until successful _completion_ of that course...the rank to which they would revert should they fail?? Sgt. Just to stir your memory and attention to detail, which yes, is a very funny thing isn't it?

Are you having fun now MRM? Happy hunting. I bet that post by me just made your day.    No worries. It certainly doesn't bother me one bit.  


_Edit of the typo type._


----------



## rosco

After all the rumor and conjecture about SLT I can actually let you know that most folks will NOT be sent to SLT after BOTP.

We finished BOTP Aug 02 07 and only the Poilets and Social Workers were sent to "The Fort" to learn Francais. The rest of us were sent on our way. The air force and navy to OJT and us army folks to Gagetown.... yes Gagetown were we sit on PAT  :blotto: and wait for the overloaded system to find room for us.


----------



## Rick Ruter

rossco said:
			
		

> After all the rumor and conjecture about SLT I can actually let you know that most folks will NOT be sent to SLT after BOTP.
> 
> We finished BOTP Aug 02 07 and only the Poilets and Social Workers were sent to "The Fort" to learn Francais. The rest of us were sent on our way. The air force and navy to OJT and us army folks to Gagetown.... yes Gagetown were we sit on PAT  :blotto: and wait for the overloaded system to find room for us.



Wow! Must be a new officer occupation ''Poilets''. What background do you need for this one? 

New one came out yesterday. PAO is also mandatory SLT.


----------



## Avro_Arrow_1976

Did all of the PAO's get sent on SLT? I heard even that MOC, the training is being deferred to later in the member's career.


----------



## Rick Ruter

Maybe it will be taken later but as of last week, it is a MOSID that requires SLT for both Anglos and Francos so we must tell new enrolees that they can plan for up to 33 weeks of SLT sometime after IAP/BOTP.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

Rick, whats the new official policy for the CBT Arms trades, I'd heard it was changing but hey who knows??


----------



## Rick Ruter

I'm not sure I know what you mean. ???


----------



## mudrecceman

"Are the ZERO trades going to SLT after BOMQ"



...or are they off to CAP?


----------



## Avro_Arrow_1976

Could someone tell me when the first SLT serial is in 08?


----------



## armyvern

Avro_Arrow_1976 said:
			
		

> Could someone tell me when the first SLT serial is in 08?



At which language school??


----------



## ModlrMike

I realize that this thread started as a discussion about SLT WRT BOTC (how's that for an acronym run?), but isn't this nearly the last year that MWOs can be promoted CWO without SLT. I seem to recall that it's either this year, or 2011.


----------



## Avro_Arrow_1976

The language school that 2Lt's fresh out of BOTP usually get posted (or in my case.. TD to). I assume it is in St Jean. I know there is another large language school in Borden, as well as smaller language schools at the Wings/Bases.


----------



## Rick Ruter

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> "Are the ZERO trades going to SLT after BOMQ"
> 
> 
> 
> ...or are they off to CAP?



SLT during DP1 for Anglo and Franco officers is limitted to Legal O, PAO and Social Worker. Franco Officers must have SLT in fol MOSIDs: AEC, AERE, AF ENGR, ANAV, CELE (Air), PLT, SIGS, MARS, MS ENG, NCS EMG, BIO, NUR and some CHAP.

SLT for NCMs is not mandatory and would only be provided if space available or for Command Chief Appointment. I looked at all 5 DPs (BMQ, PLQ, ILQ, ALQ and CQC) for NCM/Os, WOs and there is no mention of SLT.


----------



## mudrecceman

Rick Ruter said:
			
		

> SLT during DP1 for Anglo and Franco officers is limitted to Legal O, PAO and Social Worker. Franco Officers must have SLT in fol MOSIDs: AEC, AERE, AF ENGR, ANAV, CELE (Air), PLT, SIGS, MARS, MS ENG, NCS EMG, BIO, NUR and some CHAP.
> 
> SLT for NCMs is not mandatory and would only be provided if space available or for Command Chief Appointment. I looked at all 5 DPs (BMQ, PLQ, ILQ, ALQ and CQC) for NCM/Os, WOs and there is no mention of SLT.



Umm not BMQ...BOMQ (formerly known as BOTP...)

ArtieNewbie was wondering if anglo Cmbt Arms Officers are doing SLT...


----------



## Rick Ruter

-1



			
				Rick Ruter said:
			
		

> SLT during DP1 for Anglo and Franco officers is limitted to Legal O, PAO and Social Worker. Franco Officers must have SLT in fol MOSIDs: AEC, AERE, AF ENGR, ANAV, CELE (Air), PLT, SIGS, MARS, MS ENG, NCS EMG, BIO, NUR and some CHAP.



Isn't it just what I wrote???  I included NCMs but the quote above is about Officers, hence BOMQ. No Cbt Arms Officers in there.


----------



## mudrecceman

RR,

I didn't know why you put the NCM stuff in...

However in your post, you say SLT for Franco Officers is *limited* to Leg O, PAI and SW, then go on to say...Franco Officers *must have SLT* in fol MOSIDs...and list different ones, 13 MOSIDs.


----------



## Rick Ruter

Mud Recce Man said:
			
		

> RR,
> 
> I didn't know why you put the NCM stuff in...
> 
> However in your post, you say SLT for Franco Officers is *limited* to Leg O, PAI and SW, then go on to say...Franco Officers *must have SLT* in fol MOSIDs...and list different ones, 13 MOSIDs.



Mud, there is a cure for dislexia.  

Read carefully and you'll see that I wrote for *Anglo* and *Franco* in the first part. I only included the NCM because of the overall subject of this forum. Some readers are potential NCMs and would probably like to know if it applies to them. :cheers:


----------



## mudrecceman

Seen... Doh!

I just ate lunch..must be the "food stupids" kicking in...


----------



## Rick Ruter

Duty fog bank rolled in over Eastern Passage yet?


----------



## mudrecceman

Rick Ruter said:
			
		

> Duty fog bank rolled in over Eastern Passage yet?



No idea...I am "elsewhere" in NS.  Should be right on time at 1600'ish...when I get home though.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor

RR Thanks for the info


----------



## Rick Ruter

No prob my friend. That's what I'm paid for.


----------



## Celticgirl

I can't find any current threads on this topic, and my question revolves around a possible (recent or near-future) policy change with regards to second language training.

I was informed recently (by military personnel, yes) that the second language training is no longer being conducted after BMOQ (reg force), but is instead being done later on in one's training. The reason for this is supposedly the high dropout rate of new officer candidates who get frustrated with their second language courses and quit. Go figure...after all the waiting, making it through basic training, and graduating, some officer candidates will actually give up over difficulties with second language training?  :-\

What I am wondering is this: Is this actually the current policy or is it something that is in the works for the future? I do intend to ask the same question at the local CFRC when I get a chance, but they don't always have the information we are looking for offhand, so I thought I'd double my chances of getting a response by posting my query here as well.  Thanks.

[Edited to replace 'recruits' with 'officer candidates'...still learning the jargon.  ]


----------



## danchapps

From what I've been told, again, I could be off on this one, they want you to be trained in your trade first, then get the second language through the MFRC once you get posted. This could just be for NCM's though.


----------



## Shamrock

The new SLT policy is on a contingency basis and is no longer available for all officers after phase 1.  Some trades do require a language profile; SLT will be available for them.  

The reason for the change had nothing to do with retention.


----------



## benny88

CelticGirl,

  I'm in the same boat, I've completed IAP and will attend BOTP this summer, and normally an ROTP (Reg Officer Training Plan) OCdt (Officer Cadet, there's some jargon for ya) would also complete their SLT during the same summer.
  However, I've been told that my SLT may not happen this summer. This may be further compounded by the fact that my trade is pilot, and I will have to a LONG time (over a year is common, I believe) to go on Primary Flight and Basic Flight training, so I can do SLT then. 
  So to answer your question, as far as I know the policy is changing, I just have no idea how.


PS- For the record, I really want to be more bilingual and am looking forward to SLT, but I heard that it was not REQUIRED by the CF until the rank of Major, which seems like huey. Is this true or just a rumour?


----------



## Pelorus

benny88 said:
			
		

> PS- For the record, I really want to be more bilingual and am looking forward to SLT, but I heard that it was not REQUIRED by the CF until the rank of Major, which seems like huey. Is this true or just a rumour?



The captain at my local CFRC told me that second language proficiency wasn't officially required.  However, he told me that not possessing the ability to speak fluently in both languages would make it much more difficult to advance to senior officer ranks and postings.


----------



## armyvern

Current:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/59087.0.html

More details can be found in the thread linked above.


----------



## dimsum

Came off SLT in Dec 07, and was the 2nd-last intake (for Anglos at least) where all trades took it after BOTP.  When I left, the only Anglo SLT people left were Pilots, Public Affairs Officers and Legal Officers (and whoever specifically needs a profile.)  It is now a 44-week course, with the end result of a BBB profile.  As for the Francos, it was essentially the same, plus Comms Research Ops and AECs as their instruction is all in English (they also need a different profile...which escapes me now.)  

When I went through, ROTP students took a 10-week course in the summer.  That may or may not be the case now.


----------



## benny88

ArmyVern (Female type) said:
			
		

> More details can be found in the thread linked above.



  Thanks Vern


----------



## armyvern

benny88 said:
			
		

> Thanks Vern


Nemo problemo.


----------



## dwalter

Dimsum said:
			
		

> When I left, the only Anglo SLT people left were Pilots, Public Affairs Officers and Legal Officers (and whoever specifically needs a profile.)



Don't forget about the INT people! Apparently (If I get accepted still) I would be one of the ones who gets to go for extensive SLT, which I am really looking forward to. I have always wanted to get better at my French. (French classes in high school in BC really don't do any justice to the language and there is no where here to really practise it.)


----------



## Celticgirl

@Dwalter...I was under the impresson one couldn't go INT O directly, but rather had to "remuster" (I think that's the word?) to that trade later on after gaining some military experience. No? 

Great information re: SLT, everyone. I'm trying to gauge just how much time I'll be in St. Jean (if I get an offer) before going on to Phase II. While I would love to upgrade my second language skills, I prefer to do it in a later stage of training so as not to extend phase I, so this new policy suits me just fine and dandy.    I was initially told by the recruiters here that SLT would be 2-8 months, at least 2-3 months even if your French is good (mine's not terrible, just rusty). I'm planning to ask them about it again in hopes that they have updated information for me. Ultimately, the more time I spend in Phase I, the more time I spend away from my daughter. All of you parents out there can relate, I believe.


----------



## scoutfinch

dwalter said:
			
		

> Don't forget about the INT people! Apparently (If I get accepted still) I would be one of the ones who gets to go for extensive SLT, which I am really looking forward to. I have always wanted to get better at my French. (French classes in high school in BC really don't do any justice to the language and there is no where here to really practise it.)



INT Os no longer require SLT either.

INT Os are not linguists and do not get 'extensive SLT' in French or any other language.


----------



## dwalter

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> @Dwalter...I was under the impresson one couldn't go INT O directly, but rather had to "remuster" (I think that's the word?) to that trade later on after gaining some military experience. No?



Not true anymore, the regulations have recently changed. One is required to re-muster as an INT Operator, but INT O is now available to ROTP and DEO applicants. 

Also a quote from the CF Recruiting website's INT O article, under the heading "Qualification Requirements":



> "They must have a good understanding of military operations in the world, both in peace and war, and excellent written and oral communication skills in both official languages."



That was the only reason why I figured it would be important for them to have SLT.


----------



## exgunnertdo

Re IntO SLT - hubby is an Int O, with AAA profile (ie, very limited skills for those who don't know the profiles), and was told by the CM last week that he would not get any more SLT, unless he was slated to be posted to the Int School.  So whatever the recruiting people say, reality is they don't need any more second language skills than other officers.


----------



## rosco

We left St Jean in Aug 07 and were the first Anglo course to skip SLT (pilots exc excluded).  Be prepaired to spend extra time on a PAT platoon whereever you end up after CFLRS as these new policies have created a glut in the training system. For example there are a lot of 2LTs kicking around Gagetown at the moment. Over this period you may not be permitted to move your dependants out either. It can be a long haul but well worth it in the end. Good luck!


----------



## dwalter

Well I'll be OK in terms of PAT seeing as I'm doing ROTP anyways so after training each summer its back to the books. It's a shame, now I will have to take French at university to get my language credits done. UBC doesn't let you get a BA without a certain level in a language.


----------



## benny88

Sorry I feel like I'm getting mixed signals here. If someone could fill in the blanks for me that'd be great:

 An Anglo pilot           take SLT this summer after his BOTP



Thanks!


----------



## Shamrock

Will not.

Pilots need an English profile, not a bilingual one.


----------



## Rowshambow

Here is a link from the BPSO in Edmonton, shows what trades need what in regards to profiles!

http://edmonton.mil.ca/1asg/asu%20web/bpso/Lang%20Reqrs%20-%20Offrs%20by%20Occ%20--%20Besoins%20Ling%20-%20Offs%20par%20GPM%20--%2020-08-2007.xls


----------



## dwalter

Looks like I don't have access to the site. Would it be possible to post a quote from there Rowshambow?


----------



## Penny

dwalter said:
			
		

> edited for missing word (should never type when I'm tired)
> 
> Well I'll be OK in terms of PAT seeing as I'm doing ROTP anyways so after training each summer its back to the books. It's a shame, now I will have to take French at university to get my language credits done. UBC doesn't let you get a BA without a certain level in a language.



dwalter - The university I'm going to also requires language credits to complete the degree. I see this as a good thing because in the long run, anything that improves my communication skills will help me to be a better officer. I'm adding this not to be critical, just to offer another view. 

As for the SLT, I will be glad if I get it but I won't count on it to provide me with all the language skills I will require. I don't see anything wrong with picking up the odd night course here an there, even if it's out-of-pocket, but that' just me. 

This is what I try to keep in mind - The bottom line is that when i finish my training and a French speaking soldier hears an order from me, he or she will no doubt judge my competency based on how well the message is delivered and not just the content.


----------



## Rowshambow

Sure, I'll see what I can do!!
It doesn't look as good without all the lines, but you get the jist!!
oh ya just in case, where it says "FOl-French Only" it means that they  (The Francos) have to take English




Occupational Level Linguistic Requirements					Profil linguistique requis selon le niveau professionnel			
Occupation	Grouping	DP 1 SLT Reqr?	DP1 SL Level Reqr		Profession	Élément d'appartenance	FLS requise durant la PP 1?	Profil linguistique requis pour la PP 1
AEC	Air	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		C AÉRO	Air	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
AERE	Air	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		G AÉRO	Air	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
AF ENGR	Air	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		GA	Air	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
ANAV	Air	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		NAV AIR	Air	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
CELE (AIR)	Air	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		GE COMM (AIR)	Air	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
PLT	Air	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		PIL	Air	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
ARMD	Land	No	N/A		BLINDÉS	Terre	Non	S/O
ARTY	Land	No	N/A		ARTIL	Terre	Non	S/O
EME	Land	No	N/A		GEM	Terre	Non	S/O
ENGR	Land	No	N/A		GÉNIE	Terre	Non	S/O
INF	Land	No	N/A		INF	Terre	Non	S/O
SIGS	Land	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		TRANS	Terre	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
MARS	Sea	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		MAR SS	Mer	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
MS ENG	Sea	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		GSM	Mer	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
NCS ENG	Sea	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		GSCN	Mer	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
BIO	CMP/HS	Yes - FOL-French Only	CBC		BIO	CPM/SS	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	CBC
DENT	CMP/HS	No	N/A		A DENT	CPM/SS	Non	S/O
HCA	CMP/HS	No	N/A		ASSAN	CPM/SS	Non	S/O
HSO	CMP/HS	No	N/A		OSS	CPM/SS	Non	S/O
MED	CMP/HS	No	N/A		MÉD	CPM/SS	Non	S/O
NUR	CMP/HS	Yes - FOL-French Only	BBB		S INFIRM	CPM/SS	Oui - PLO - Français seulement	BBB
SOCW	CMP/HS	Yes - All	BBB		T SOC	CPM/SS	Oui - Dans tous les cas	BBB
PHARM	CMP/HS	No	N/A		PHARM	CPM/SS	Non	N/A
PHY TH	CMP/HS	No	N/A		PHYSIO	CPM/SS	Non	N/A
LOG	CMP	No	N/A		LOG	CPM	Non	N/A
CHAP	CMP	Some	Job-based		AUM	CPM	Dans certains cas	Selon l'affectation
MPO	CFPM	No	N/A		OPM	GPFC	Non	S/O
INT	CMP	No	N/A		RENS	CPM	Non	S/O
PSEL	CMP	No	N/A		S PERS	CPM	Non	S/O
TRG DEV	CMP	No	N/A		DÉV INSTR	CPM	Non	S/O
LEGAL	CMP	Yes - All	BBB		DROIT	CPM	Oui - Dans tous les cas	BBB
MUSC	CMP	No	N/A		MUS	CPM	No	S/O
PAO	CMP	Yes - All	BBB		OAP	CPM	Oui - Dans tous les cas	BBB
Applicable to DEO, CEOTP, CFR, CEOTP-Internal, SCP					La matrice est applicable aux officiers du PEOD, du PFOEP, du PIOSR, du PFOEP­Interne et du PSAC			
Changed 20 Aug 07					Changée le 20 août 07


----------



## bbell

thats good to know, i wonder why they tell you that you have to do SLT for every officer trade?


----------



## dwalter

Wow, thanks so much Rowshambow. That's a really helpful list! 

Penny, I also intend to take my French courses, but I had been hoping to do military SLT because I thought the learning environment might have been more stimulating. Anyways, now that I know how the system works, I will definitely put the effort into my university French courses in order to get the most of it.


----------



## benny88

Rowshambow, if you could clean that up into proper columns, I recommend that this be stickied. Thanks a lot for the list man, helps a lot.


----------



## armyvern

benny88 said:
			
		

> Rowshambow, if you could clean that up into proper columns, I recommend that this be stickied. Thanks a lot for the list man, helps a lot.



Good luck with that!! I'm a mod ... and I still can't make the damn "columns" layout friggin' work ... and I have tried numerous times.   But I am a numpty anyway -- so really that doesn't say much that I can't do it.

It's probably easier to upload it as a file that can be opened by using the "additional options" button.


----------



## benny88

After taking a closer look I see at the bottom of that list it says it does not apply to ROTP. I imagine the requirements are similar, but just be aware, this may not apply to you. Anyone have an ROTP relevant list?


----------



## noob_leech

Dunno if this will help ...

*Occupational Level Linguistic Requirements*


Occupation GroupingDP 1 SLT Reqr?DP1 SL Level ReqrAECAirYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBAEREAirYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBAF ENGRAirYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBANAVAirYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBCELE (AIR)AirYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBPLTAirYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBARMDLandNoNAARTYLandNoNAEMELandNoNAENGRLandNoNAINFLandNoNASIGSLandYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBMARSSeaYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBMS ENGSeaYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBNCS ENGSeaYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBBIOCMPHSYes - FOL-French OnlyCBCDENTCMPHSNoNAHCACMPHSNoNAHSOCMPHSNoNAMEDCMPHSNoNANURCMPHSYes - FOL-French OnlyBBBSOCWCMPHSYes - AllBBBPHARMCMPHSNoNAPHY THCMPHSNoNALOGCMPNoNACHAPCMPSomeJob-basedMPOCFPMNoNAINTCMPNoNAPSELCMPNoNATRG DEVCMPNoNALEGALCMPYes - AllBBBMUSCCMPNoNAPAOCMPYes - AllBBB

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  

  

    

    

    

    

  
_Applicable to DEO, CEOTP, CFR, CEOTP-Internal, SCP
Changed 20 Aug 07_


----------



## Celticgirl

Thank you, Rowshambow and dame_ningen...that list is very helpful!


----------



## Celticgirl

Oops, two more thank yous - one to Gimpy for cleaning it up even more on the other thread and one to ArmyVern for sticking it. (I can't reply on the other thread 'cause it's locked so I had to put this here.)


----------



## exgunnertdo

I would still take that list with a pound of salt - things constantly change.  As an example - for Trg Dev (my classification) at least a BBB in English is required if you are French FOL.  We only have a couple of positions in our branch that are unilingual French, all others are English or bilingual.  But the chart says no SLT is required for either official language.


----------



## brian_k

Anyone have any info on the Second Language School in Shearwater? I'm having trouble finding anything on the DIN.


----------



## aesop081

Look for WCOL on the Wing's DIN page. Thats the Wing's coordinator for official languages.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

You're looking for the LTC (A), I am trying to find the link to the PSU Halifax site or the CDA site.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Ok.  I don't seem to be able to find the damn Intranet site.  I believe LTC (A) [Language Trg Center (Atlantic)] falls under MARLANT N11, but 30+ minutes of looking on the MARLANT site and I came up with squat.

I can tell you that the LTC (A) is located in the old school building on the Upper Base in Shearwater, which also houses the CANEX, MFRC and Chaplain's office.  

If you are interested, PM me your @forces.gc.ca email address and I'll send you his contact info.


----------



## Abnie

I tend to visit this site and the forces.ca site quite regularly, curious about what may lay ahead of me in the CF (I just sent in my application papers this morning, woot). I know you guys practice safe use of the search button (which every forum should!), but I could not find an answer to my question. Anyways let's get to my question.. 

I was reading the benefits page on the forces.ca website, and I noticed under Education and Training..



> The Canadian Forces (CF) has outstanding education, training and professional development opportunities, such as paid tuition, *second language training* and financial support for continuing education.



Who are these services available to? Maybe just officers? Is it JUST to learn French? Can we only do it if we're required to?

I hope that made sense..

Sorry if this is in the wrong sub-forum, if it is PLEASE do move it. 
Thanks to everyone who took the time to click the thread and thanks for the staff running this site - its a goldmine! 

~Darren


----------



## PuckChaser

Languages other than the official languages are only really taught to people that require it for their job, or are going on an OUTCAN (in rare cases).

There's a variety of options for SLT, from a year long french course to smaller classroom courses run at various bases. Anyone can apply for them, however the preference is for higher ranks to have it.


----------



## Kiwi99

I'm on the year long french course now, along with a lot of MCpls from my Battalion.  Before that, we had sent very few people on second language training.  It has bitten the Regt in the ass.  It is required for advancement beyond certain ranks to be bilingual, from what I understand, and gives more points to you for the merit boards.

That being said, yes, you can request it.  But if you are a new Pte in an infantry Battalion you prob won't get it as there is no requirement at that stage for you to have it.  Your chain of command will be the one that decide who the put on the course. They will base this off many things, one of them being long term planning for the Battalion and Regiment, and looking ahead at key positions to be filled.


----------



## AmmoTech90

For any CWO senior appointments, to be competitive, you need BBBs up to until you hit one of the big 5 (Navy/Army/Airforce/CMP CWOs and CF CWO).  For those, to be competitive you need CBCs.  Most of the military is now realizing that the time to take SLT is not when you get promoted to CWO or even MWO.  Kiwi99 has it right, do it at the MCpl/Sgt/WO level.

One other point, in addition to the residential courses there is web based training.  http://www.allies.forces.gc.ca/index-eng.asp Any member can sign up for it, there are limited spots, and if you are not on a officially loaded course, apparently you cannot do the verbal interaction with a facilitator, but can still work on reading, comprehension, and grammar.


Edit for spelling  :-X


----------



## Greymatters

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> That being said, yes, you can request it.  But if you are a new Pte in an infantry Battalion you prob won't get it as there is no requirement at that stage for you to have it.  Your chain of command will be the one that decide who the put on the course. They will base this off many things, one of them being long term planning for the Battalion and Regiment, and looking ahead at key positions to be filled.



I would disagree with you on that - as Canada has a bilingual force, every soldier needs to have some basic level of understanding in both  languages.  Even a basic RCR or PPCLI Private needs to understand the commands given by a VanDoo Corporal.


----------



## dangerboy

Greymatters said:
			
		

> I would disagree with you on that - as Canada has a bilingual force, every soldier needs to have some basic level of understanding in both  languages.  Even a basic RCR or PPCLI Private needs to understand the commands given by a VanDoo Corporal.



How often are PPCLI or RCR Ptes placed in that situation?


----------



## Greymatters

It can also be vice-versa; and this happens more often than you would think. While as a former PPCLI soldier we had contact with VanDoo units every year during training, exercises and other events. 

You also miss the point - how many times does 'it' have to happen before we 'need it'?  We dont 'need' our rifles every day, and some soldiers go for years without a deployment to an operation or tasking, yet they are expected to use a rifle on a regular basis and be proficient with it.  

An important communication tool like language is no different.  If anything, the lack of cross-language training acts as a continuing barrier to inter-unit cooperation.  If every soldier spoke both languages to a minimum standard we wouldnt have to be fixated with 'English-primary' and 'French-primary' rotation issues.


----------



## aesop081

For every private to undergo SLT is unrealistic.


----------



## armyvern

AmmoTech90 said:
			
		

> For any CWO senior appointments, to be competitive, you need BBBs up to until you hit one of the big 5 (Navy/Army/Airforce/CMP CWOs and CF CWO).  For those, to be competitive you need CBCs.  Most of the military is now realizing that the time to take SLT is not when you get promoted to CWO or even MWO.  Kiwi99 has it right, do it at the MCpl/Sgt/WO level.
> ...



I can tell you that part of the Sup/Ammo tech career manager's briefing this year includes the new CANFORGEN details wrt merit points and language profile requirements for promotions to different rank levels.

It also includes the statement that the year-long courses will be considered only for those who have consistently demonstrated outstanding leadership, the potential to advance in rank or into succession planning posns and the ability to learn and retain a second language. All candidates must have a clear endorsement from their CoC and demonstrated ability before careers will consider testing them for loading. In other words, your average Cpl isn't just going to find themselves on a year long french course - even if they request such.

I can only recommend that all personnel avail themselves of the opportunity to undertake whatever language trg they can - and at the earliest possible opportunity. Blocks of mods work well, but approved requests for "cours continu" are going to be very very rare at the lower rank levels. Look after yourselves folks. Talk to your local language school about what is avail for you out there at your location. Only the year-long is career managed.


----------



## Greymatters

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> For every private to undergo SLT is unrealistic.



And too expensive.  Im sure there are all sorts of other good arguments against it.

Im not talking about full immersion lasting a year - even two weeks training time during basic and another two weeks during the first year of service would be a good start.  Apparently many of our French-speaking recruits get this training - why not vice-versa?

Thats rhetorical by the way.  If you think its a bad idea, Im unlikely to change your mind just by posting an enthusiastic response.


----------



## Biggoals2bdone

I agree in saying this is something very important, and also you need time to learn it and be comfortable with it, and thats another reason why the course shouldnt be given at the last minute (aka just before promotion)

I've actually seen 2nd language training forced on french pers, all the while the english pers requesting learning french were turned back quick.

I would consider mandatory 2nd language training to all francos posted to english bases and vice versa, I work with some good troops, who are hardcore french, they can get by sort of with some help, but they've never been offered english training, and we're in ontario, I just don't get it.

Then again the clerks/language people/personnel management system, needs to keep better track of language qualifications, I had to fight for 2-3yrs to get mine changed to the appropriate quals, even though I had my test results handed in, they had my 1st and 2nd languages flipped and wouldn't change them.


----------



## armyvern

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Then again the clerks/language people/personnel management system, needs to keep better track of language qualifications, I had to fight for 2-3yrs to get mine changed to the appropriate quals, even though I had my test results handed in, they had my 1st and 2nd languages flipped and wouldn't change them.



They COULDN'T change them; this is a language school issue. ALL language profile courses, and testing results, are input by Canadian Forces Language School Staff, not military clerks.


----------



## Kiwi99

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> It also includes the statement that the year-long courses will be considered only for those who have consistently demonstrated outstanding leadership, the potential to advance in rank or into succession planning posns and the ability to learn and retain a second language.



Woo Hoo, I really tricked them this time!!!!


----------



## Biggoals2bdone

Vern: they were contacted, and gave the clerks and myself the run around.


----------



## armyvern

Biggoals2bdone said:
			
		

> Vern: they were contacted, and gave the clerks and myself the run around.



Exactly; it's not a clerk problem. It's a contractor problem with the results section in Asticou  the national hub for the language schools. No one else has authority or access to the profile portion of your MPRR.


----------



## armyvern

Kiwi99 said:
			
		

> Woo Hoo, I really tricked them this time!!!!



You'll note that I specifically stated "for sup/ammo techs" in my post. We have metric shitloads of LogOs who NEED the qual just to do their day jobs, we have Snr NCOs who show promise and demonstrated ability to advance who need it as well (to advance and to do their day jobs) ... and so the troops' chances just went down significantly as it is not a "must have" for 99.99% of them in their day jobs.


----------



## dogger1936

Everyone I work for in my English language regiment looks at it the same way.....now we can be sure someone who may be stupid in two official languages gets the position. Don't get me wrong I speak french well, but I do not see the use of the french language in a military context in a English regiment.

I frequently speak french while in New Brunswick on civi street. I have yet come across an occasion where a war wasn't being waged in English. I've never had to call in helo's in french for a medivac.

Sure it may have a military use in Africa or Haiti but we have managed to get by in a zillion other countries with only a basic knowledge of the local language.

To me this is just another hoop excellent combat soldiers have to jump through......as if we don't have enough courses now.


----------



## aesop081

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> but I do not see the use of the french language in a military context in a English regiment.



That is because you are limiting your outlook to a single predicament. I work in an English language unit at the moment but i am posted next summer to a bilingual unit where i will have subordinates who speak either language. Reality is that troops, as they progress to higher ranks, are likely to find themselves employed outside that "English regiment" and into the broader CF.


----------



## captloadie

A second language, or third, fourth, fifth language etc. , must be used to be retained. How many of us have had SLT and a year later could still receive the same marks on the evaluation? The problem with the way the current SLT is done is that the majority of people take it for one reason only: to improve their PER score and merit listing. It is a tick in the box. Therefore, those individuals who have the time to get it, get advanced over the people who are too busy, and quite possibly more deserving.  

However, there is a need to have senior leadership at both the Officer and NCM level to be bilingual. And I agree that some individuals need to be immersed in the language to pick it up, and then need to practice it constantly to keep it. Others will have a natural ability and be able to take a course and then recall it when required. Maybe we need to score the second language marks differently on PERs. After initial SLT,  the longer a member keeps a functional level in their second language without additional training gets a higher score on the merit board. This would at least show an attempt to keep up second language skills, even if it is self study.


I also wonder why if all province's,  with maybe the exception of Quebec, have mandatory second language training in their school systems, so many soldiers don't have enough French to understand the Vandoo Cpl giving them orders? Have we just identified a huge waste of taxpayers money? :


----------



## armyvern

captloadie said:
			
		

> A second language, or third, fourth, fifth language etc. , must be used to be retained. How many of us have had SLT and a year later could still receive the same marks on the evaluation? The problem with the way the current SLT is done is that the majority of people take it for one reason only: to improve their PER score and merit listing. It is a tick in the box. Therefore, those individuals who have the time to get it, get advanced over the people who are too busy, and quite possibly more deserving.
> 
> However, there is a need to have senior leadership at both the Officer and NCM level to be bilingual. And I agree that some individuals need to be immersed in the language to pick it up, and then need to practice it constantly to keep it. Others will have a natural ability and be able to take a course and then recall it when required. Maybe we need to score the second language marks differently on PERs. After initial SLT,  the longer a member keeps a functional level in their second language without additional training gets a higher score on the merit board. This would at least show an attempt to keep up second language skills, even if it is self study.
> 
> 
> I also wonder why if all province's,  with maybe the exception of Quebec, have mandatory second language training in their school systems, so many soldiers don't have enough French to understand the Vandoo Cpl giving them orders? Have we just identified a huge waste of taxpayers money? :



One just needs to have initiative to keep it up - this is Canada after all. I just finished the SLT in June. I watch an hour of franco TV each night and I often flick the radio onto a franco news channel just to keep myself going.

Even though 99% of the pers in the Regt are english, I make it a point to go out and about and speak to them all ... in english or french as the case may be. I could chose to sit in my office on my butt & communicate soley via their CoC down, but I don't.

It's a personal thing; it can be done.

I grew up in NB where taking french is mandatory for your entire schooling each and every year in order to graduate. It is the only province in Canada that it so. That meant absolutely zero though on the SLT. The SLT is formal french --- of the quebecquois persuasion, not Acadian; there are huge differences. My spouse, who is franco mother-tongue was confused by my "fake french" in being that it was obviously "formal french, formally taught, and used only within the public service ~ nary to be understood in the _real _ world" by actual french speakers witout laughter. Go figure.


----------



## captloadie

You are correct about it being a personal thing, and I think it shows something of the individual, hence why I think members who actual practice the language deserve more credit, than those who simply take the training, get the testing out of the way, and wait five years to redo it.

I grew up in Northern NB, in an English community, but also had to take French all through school. The only time I ever used it though was in the year before I graduated, when I worked in a hardware store. I was forced to use my French, and I grudgingly spoke it when I had to. I still struggle speaking French to Quebecers, but oddly enough, have no difficulties dealing with the Belgians and Francophones from France here at my current posting.


----------



## armyvern

captloadie said:
			
		

> I still struggle speaking French to Quebecers, but oddly enough, have no difficulties dealing with the Belgians and Francophones from France here at my current posting.



Oui, c'est la même situation pour moi; c'est drôle eh?


----------



## dogger1936

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> That is because you are limiting your outlook to a single predicament. I work in an English language unit at the moment but i am posted next summer to a bilingual unit where i will have subordinates who speak either language. Reality is that troops, as they progress to higher ranks, are likely to find themselves employed outside that "English regiment" and into the broader CF.



I agree to an extent. I have been posted o a bilingual position....infact  I was posted directly into a franco section due to clerical errors involving my last name! That being said I do not agree with the language profile meaning so much at the Sgt WO SSM level. Frankly it is going to get the lesser tatical soldier, physical soldier, and educated soldier left behind in many cases due to the ability to speak a language that will only help him at the very higher ranks in the NCM world.


----------



## armyvern

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I agree to an extent. I have been posted o a bilingual position....infact  I was posted directly into a franco section due to clerical errors involving my last name! That being said I do not agree with the language profile meaning so much at the Sgt WO SSM level. Frankly it is going to get the lesser tatical soldier, physical soldier, and educated soldier left behind in many cases due to the ability to speak a language that will only help him at the very higher ranks in the NCM world.



I have Franco Ptes and Cpls working alongside Anglo Ptes and Cpls each and every day; I think it`s nice and a good thing that they all put effort into trying to communicate effectively with one another in order to succeed in what we have to do. That`s a necessity, not a nicety.

As they progress in rank, this becomes even more critical as they will find themselves employed in positions such as Ops Sgts, or Ops WOs (outside of trade) or SSMs --- where the ability to communicate at a minimum level in the mother tongue of your subordinate is only fair. If not, what do you suggest, that the onus be on the franco troop who may be employed under that person be the one required to speak english instead?? I think it`s a much better place when *both* sides put in the effort.


----------



## dogger1936

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If not, what do you suggest, that the onus be on the franco troop who may be employed under that person be the one required to speak english instead?? I think it`s a much better place when *both* sides put in the effort.



Posted to a anglo base? yes they should be able to communicate in english. I have two possiable postings until I reach SSM one in a english regiment the other in a "bilingual" unit which has french sections and english sections.
If I was posted to valcartier I would speak french.

I'm not sayig speaking other languages isnt important or useful.I just think that canforgen and the crrent way we are going with the language profile is just going to get morons promoted cause they grew up in a bilingual environment...nevermind their soldier skills.


----------



## JB 11 11

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> One just needs to have initiative to keep it up - this is Canada after all. I just finished the SLT in June. I watch an hour of franco TV each night and I often flick the radio onto a franco news channel just to keep myself going.



I too grew up in a Bilingual environment...and admittedly, languages are easy for me (on my 5th) however, after hanging around DFAIT and other Fed. Dept. types for the better part of 10 years, I've seen first hand what it is like for someone from, lets say, Grand Prairie AB or Swift Current Sask. to learn and retain their french without being in an environment where they "need" to use it.

On a posting in Delhi for two years, there aren't too many opportunities to speak French. If you have French speaking colleagues, great! If not....2 years is a long time to go without using a language if it is not your 1st. So the whole idea of taking "initiative" is a lot harder form some. For me and you, sure.... get some French TV on or listen to the Radio works fine, but for others who've worked damn hard and only just got their levels, it takes more.

My wife's a great example. She's from Sask. (hence the Swift Current Ref. ;D) and can smoke me at french grammar most of the time (she's a studious gal!). But being in Italy, she has lost most of it and you DO NOT want to hear her accent right now . She needs to get back into speaking it. Luckily for her, all her staff are trilingual and will speak french with her. If this wasn't the case, (and if she did not have me   8) ) than I'm not too sure she'd make her levels the next time around with out a mammoth effort. My Newfy side of the family is also very similar in regards to French... most of them can speak pig-latin, but not French.... ??? Go figure.


----------



## armyvern

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Posted to a anglo base? yes they should be able to communicate in english. I have two possiable postings until I reach SSM one in a english regiment the other in a "bilingual" unit which has french sections and english sections.
> If I was posted to valcartier I would speak french.
> 
> I'm not sayig speaking other languages isnt important or useful.I just think that canforgen and the crrent way we are going with the language profile is just going to get morons promoted cause they grew up in a bilingual environment...nevermind their soldier skills.



Posted to any base.

They should both make the effort. But here`s the kicker - it`s funny you expect the subordinate to speak english but not the other way around. I think you forget that there is a whole lot of trades out there where pers are in bilingual enviornments as a matter of NORMAL not necessarily officially bilingual units though.

Imagine that: Some young franco Sup tech gets posted to an anglo Unit and is squeamish enough about that and the word he gets from his chain and peers is `too bad, speak english`. Nice. It should be necessary for both the franco troop AND the supervisor to attempt to communicate irregardless of whether it`s an anglo base or not.

We`ll have to agree to disagree on your insinuation that this will get `morons`promoted. Bullshit. It`ll get anyone promoted who puts in the effort to comply and understands that effective communication and understanding of tasks/orders with ANY of their subordinates is critical to success. Those `morons`who wish to sit on their butt instead of take the message seriously ... will lose out through their own neglect.

I can take a superstar tradeguy to the merit boards, but I can not make him try to learn french/english. He chooses not to do that or make the attempt ... then who`s the moron now?


----------



## Greymatters

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I can take a superstar tradeguy to the merit boards, but I can not make him try to learn french/english. He chooses not to do that or make the attempt ... then who`s the moron now?



Like the old saying: "You can lead a horse to water  - but you cant make him drink"


----------



## Journeyman

I some regiments, the language profile isn't enough -- you have to play hockey too


----------



## dogger1936

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Posted to any base.
> 
> They should both make the effort. But here`s the kicker - it`s funny you expect the subordinate to speak english but not the other way around. I think you forget that there is a whole lot of trades out there where pers are in bilingual enviornments as a matter of NORMAL not necessarily officially bilingual units though.
> 
> Imagine that: Some young franco Sup tech gets posted to an anglo Unit and is squeamish enough about that and the word he gets from his chain and peers is `too bad, speak english`. Nice. It should be necessary for both the franco troop AND the supervisor to attempt to communicate irregardless of whether it`s an anglo base or not.
> 
> We`ll have to agree to disagree on your insinuation that this will get `morons`promoted. Bullshit. It`ll get anyone promoted who puts in the effort to comply and understands that effective communication and understanding of tasks/orders with ANY of their subordinates is critical to success. Those `morons`who wish to sit on their butt instead of take the message seriously ... will lose out through their own neglect.
> 
> I can take a superstar tradeguy to the merit boards, but I can not make him try to learn french/english. He chooses not to do that or make the attempt ... then who`s the moron now?



I have my profile and speak quite well. Not really a concern of mine. As for the expect them to speak english...yes they should. I always said the best way for a young english guy to learn french is to be dropped into Valcartier. I've had friends who were strait Anglo who were posted there after their battle school. Now they are more comfortable in the french language than their own. And no the crew down there didnt let english be his tounge of choice...he either adapted or failed.A great way to learn.


----------



## observor 69

When I was posted to Bagotville in the 70's you could take the on base French course for six weeks of mornings, I did and enjoyed learning another language. 
"But" if you wanted the longer French course in St.Jean you had to agree to extending your posting to Bagotvile by a couple of years at least., 
While quite a reasonable request it was rather unattractive to an Anglo with family. Catch 22


----------



## rnkelly

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> I always said the best way for a young english guy to learn french is to be dropped into Valcartier.



I'm a young Anglo posted a few months ago to 430 ETAH, CFB Valcartier (first posting).  It is a designated FLU (French Language unit) meaning it has no responsibilty to offer any services in english, the flying and Radio calls are french for the local area.  Being from Vancouver it's a bit of a culture shock but it all comes down to willingness to learn and attitude.  I might as well be on an exchange posting because that's what it feels like.  If you don't make a conscious effort to talk, read and practice french you won't gain the benefits of such an opportunity and will fail to enjoy the experience.  I expect to be at a CCC level in a couple years, just in time to get posted out and not put it to use!  I think putting bi-lingual on the resume is something to be proud of.  That's one of the reasons I joined, the adventure and to better myself while serving.  The girls aren't bad here in Quebec either.

Our military having the ability to deploy french units, battle groups is huge (Africa, Haiti).  The french units are always more bilingual then the english units as well so can provide liason/translation for large operations where other militaries only speak one of the two languages.  Our Country is unique/special in this way and can contribute in operations in ways that others cannot because of it.

Second language training is not at my disposal due to operational requirements which makes it tough.  With courses, Op tempo, currencies and personal development there's simply no way I can devote time solely to SLT.  That's alright though I'm on my own SLT concurrently while doing all other tasks and living my every day life.  I annoy others by asking questions sometimes but screw them.

PS- Somethings in Quebec are frustrating too but you have to take the good with the bad (like anywhere).  French is F@#%en tough to learn.  But if I wanted to stay where I'm from I shouldn't have joined the military.


----------



## PuckChaser

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I some regiments, the language profile isn't enough -- you have to play hockey too



Man, I'd be set if I go get some SLT.  ;D


----------



## captloadie

rnkelly said:
			
		

> Our military having the ability to deploy french units, battle groups is huge (Africa, Haiti).  The french units are always more bilingual then the English units as well so can provide liaison/translation for large operations where other militaries only speak one of the two languages.  Our Country is unique/special in this way and can contribute in operations in ways that others cannot because of it.



Sorry, can't agree with this at all. I'm working in a quasi NATO organisation now and come across alot of different nationalities. Most of them here at the unit speak a minimum of 2 languages, and most understand at least three or four. When I ask how they learned, the answer is always, they had to take it in school. Most must take English as a second language, and then they also have to learn at least one other (usually German or French, but it depends on the country).


----------



## JB 11 11

captloadie said:
			
		

> Sorry, can't agree with this at all. I'm working in a quasi NATO organisation now and come across alot of different nationalities. Most of them here at the unit speak a minimum of 2 languages, and most understand at least three or four. When I ask how they learned, the answer is always, they had to take it in school. Most must take English as a second language, and then they also have to learn at least one other (usually German or French, but it depends on the country).



+1
Europe is a great example of this as a whole. Most, if not all of the Germans I have met in a professional capacity have at a minimum 3 languages. Here in Italy, especially in the north everyone speaks at least 3 languages: Italian, German and English/French/Russian (lots of Russians in the Dolomite/Alps!).
Personally, it makes me feel pretty lame as a country some times. But then I see them freeze half to death when its 10 degrees outside, and I smile inside ;D


----------



## George Wallace

JB 11 11 said:
			
		

> .......... But then I see them freeze half to death when its 10 degrees outside, and I smile inside ;D



Having been there and done that, I would like to warn you that if you stay there too long, you too will be freezing at 10 degrees.    :nod:


----------



## JB 11 11

Too late my friend... 2 years in India then 3 here.... Im ruined! I WILL suffer when I get back to Canada :nod: LOL!


----------



## rnkelly

captloadie said:
			
		

> Sorry, can't agree with this at all. I'm working in a quasi NATO organisation now and come across alot of different nationalities. Most of them here at the unit speak a minimum of 2 languages, and most understand at least three or four. When I ask how they learned, the answer is always, they had to take it in school. Most must take English as a second language, and then they also have to learn at least one other (usually German or French, but it depends on the country).



My bad, I guess I was just comparing us to our American friends. 

Damn it I wanted us to be special! Oh well


----------



## dapaterson

rnkelly said:
			
		

> The girls aren't bad here in Quebec either.



A Townie I know would agree with you; his first posting was to Valcartier where, as he puts it, he gained a lifelong affection for the French tongue.


----------



## observor 69

dapaterson said:
			
		

> A Townie I know would agree with you; his first posting was to Valcartier where, as he puts it, he gained a lifelong affection for the French tongue.



Nothing like having a live in instructor.  
I have a good friend from Ontario who was posted to Bagotville, married a local lady and now is a fluently bilingual  instructor in St.Jean.


----------



## SkyHeff

I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me on how long summer SLT courses are for ROTP students and when they typically run?

It's come to our attention that we need to start thinking about summer courses, OJT, employment, etc. and that it's our responsibility to find it because my area has limited jobs. At this point in time, the only word I have is that if funding becomes available, I should expect to head back to St-Jean for SLT, but that is unknown at the moment.

I would like to know the length as I've heard 10 weeks, and if that is the case finding work to occupy the rest of the summer will need to be addressed.

Thanks.


----------



## Corey Darling

It`s a 10 week course. Can take leave before or after SLT, and find OJE for the remaining couple weeks.

Corey


----------



## wannabe SF member

Heff18 said:
			
		

> I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me on how long summer SLT courses are for ROTP students and when they typically run?
> 
> It's come to our attention that we need to start thinking about summer courses, OJT, employment, etc. and that it's our responsibility to find it because my area has limited jobs. At this point in time, the only word I have is that if funding becomes available, I should expect to head back to St-Jean for SLT, but that is unknown at the moment.
> 
> I would like to know the length as I've heard 10 weeks, and if that is the case finding work to occupy the rest of the summer will need to be addressed.
> 
> Thanks.



Are you speaking for other people than yourself?


----------



## SkyHeff

Inky said:
			
		

> Are you speaking for other people than yourself?



I'd like to know personally, but there's 3 others in my class in the same boat. It's agreed my initial post was poorly worded.



			
				Corey said:
			
		

> It`s a 10 week course. Can take leave before or after SLT, and find OJE for the remaining couple weeks.



Merci pour l'illumination.


----------



## reboog

I know this is a question I can probably ask my CFRC, but I keep forgetting each time I go down there so maybe someone can help me out?

I understand that upon completion of BMOQ, officer candidates are expected to be functionally bilingual and will be sent to a 2nd language course if they lack the required language proficiency. My question is: Does this happen during the Common Army Phase and subsequent trades specializations, or do I take 2-9 months off to complete a separate, independent language course? If the latter, is it a full-time commitment? 

Thanks in advance for any answers.


----------



## MJP

Doing 2nd language training (SLT) early in your career is only for some officer trades.  Most of them have no requirement for you to be functionally bilingual early in your career so the opportunity to do SLT would be offered later.  It would help if you could say what trade you are going into and someone will tell you if you need to or not.  It is usually a seperate standalone course you take however there are other self study options out there.


----------



## reboog

MJP said:
			
		

> Doing 2nd language training (SLT) early in your career is only for some officer trades.  Most of them have no requirement for you to be functionally bilingual early in your career so the opportunity to do SLT would be offered later.  It would help if you could say what trade you are going into and someone will tell you if you need to or not.  It is usually a seperate standalone course you take however there are other self study options out there.



I applied for Engineering Officer, and the description on forces.ca says that there's a 2-9 month second language training requirement. 

For the standalone course, would I be doing any military-type stuff at the same time, or just focusing on learning the language?


----------



## Ayrsayle

I'm curious about this as well - Learning French was one of the reasons (or advantages I saw) in joining as an officer.


----------



## Bird_Gunner45

As far as I know now, they stopped doing mandatory second language training right after BOTC in 06 just after I went through it.  I dont think engineers do it mandatorily now, but you would have to ask.  If you're lucky enough to get it, you'll do some ruck marches, maybe (1 a week max) and the rest of the time will be for learning the language.


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## Eastcoaster03

Second language is also something I looked at as a positive. Would be useful in the future.


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## reboog

Bird_Gunner45 said:
			
		

> As far as I know now, they stopped doing mandatory second language training right after BOTC in 06 just after I went through it.  I dont think engineers do it mandatorily now, but you would have to ask.  If you're lucky enough to get it, you'll do some ruck marches, maybe (1 a week max) and the rest of the time will be for learning the language.



Excellent, I'll make sure to confirm it with my CFRC (hopefully I'll remember), but that sounds pretty awesome if it's true. I assume the French language training will be done at St Jean?


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## sky777

reboog said:
			
		

> Excellent, I'll make sure to confirm it with my CFRC (hopefully I'll remember), but that sounds pretty awesome if it's true. I assume the French language training will be done at St Jean?


Yes,at St Jean


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## Ayrsayle

reading over another thread regarding married pilots and being exempt from SLT got me thinking - while some of the information has been covered in threads previous, I still had a few questions:

As a newly accepted DEO (Infantry) I had always hoped that I would have the opportunity for SLT through the Forces (quite the opposite of the original poster, I'd want to fight tooth and nail for the chance to learn French and am willing to sacrifice for the opportunity). the lack of this being part of my program was not brought up during my application process (shame on me also for not looking into it in detail). Is this a potential option if it was something I pursued with intent (or might have the opportunity to do later)? If not, are there any supports for individuals in the Forces who wish to further their second language training?supporting the financial costs of taking language classes from a civilian institution? My background in Latin was very interesting, but not particularly applicable for furthering my career in the Forces.

In short, I'm in the dark on what the options are and would love any feedback. Thanks in advance.


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## Ayrsayle

Didn't get much of a response on here regarding my earlier question - so I ended up going to talk to a recruiter again about what would be likely to happen.

General impression I got from him was that it would be viewed favourably (my interest and desire) - if I wanted to do it it would happen (either through a internet program, a 6 month, or a year-long SLT). However, if the military was paying for it, they would likely place me somewhere where the skills would be reenforced (IE, a French speaking area - Quebec most likely). This makes perfect sense - why pay me to take a course I will not utilize? 

My Fiance's particular professional career (Sign Language Interpreter) however relies strongly on English - there is a different variant of Sign language for Quebec (essentially, she'd not only have to learn French, but another form of Sign language as well) - While I see the utility of using of my newly-trained language, would this likely tie me to the Quebec (Van Doos) in terms of regiment? 

Still in the dark about these things, and would still love any insight that was out there.


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## PuckChaser

Year-long French course means you either go to a Bilingual unit, or French language only unit. I've started taking SLT by attending a 2 hour per day class, and it took me about 3 months to finish the first level. You can do up to NP 2 in this manner, which gives you a leg-up when asking for longer classroom courses. The internet program I used is also available for self-study, so you can work from home without having to go to the base language school for 2 hours a day. I'm not sure how the tutoring works with this system, I believe its centrally done wherever the program is based out of. Its not a perfect program, but if you have a little bit of French background it can do wonders.


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## PPCLI Guy

> Year-long French course means you either go to a Bilingual unit, or French language only unit.



As an Infantry Officer, you will NOT necessarily be posted to such a unit.  If you demonstrate potential, then the Regiment will place you on French Language training at the appropriate time in your career.  This is just as likely to take place in Edmonton, Shilo, Petawawa or Gagetown as it is to happen anywhere else.  You can help yourself by a) getting tested, and b) indicating your willingness to attend SLT by telling your Boss, and by doing whatever training you can on your own time (keeping in mind that you will be very busy with your job, OPMEs etc).

Bottom line - be good at your primary function and the rest will fall into place.

What Regiment are you planning on joining?


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## aesop081

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Year-long French course means you either go to a Bilingual unit, or French language only unit.



Nope, far from it.


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## PuckChaser

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Nope, far from it.



Then my career manager was wrong when we were told that last year, or its just a C&E Branch policy.


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## Pusser

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Then my career manager was wrong when we were told that last year, or its just a C&E Branch policy.



Truth is that it varies, often by branch, so there is no one standard answer.  Since the Career Manager is the one who loads you on the year long course, he may vary well only want to load those individuals whom he intends to later post to bilingual positions or those in the candidate's second language.  However, this does not mean that a member of the RCR will suddenly find him/herself posted to the Van Doos.  Permanent Regimental Affiliation still remains the same.  A PPCLI is always a PPCLI (generally unless he/she asks to change).  So, in those cases, SLT may take longer and not become a consideration until the candidate is ready for a staff position outside the Battalion/Regiment.  Other branches will look at it differently.


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## PPCLI Guy

Pusser said:
			
		

> Since the Career Manager is the one who loads you on the year long course, .......  A PPCLI is always a PPCLI



And in the PPCLI, although the message may come from the Career Manger, the decision is made by the Regimental Colonel.


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## Pusser

PPCLI Guy said:
			
		

> And in the PPCLI, although the message may come from the Career Manger, the decision is made by the Regimental Colonel.



Every Branch seems to have its mafia making some of the decisions...


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## dawenm

I wonder if the second language training is aimed at those who understand either English or French. Does an officer need to understand both English or French fluently? I am english second language, and nothing to know of French. am i eligible for this training?


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## Tewkster

dawenm said:
			
		

> I wonder if the second language training is aimed at those who understand either English or French. Does an officer need to understand both English or French fluently? I am english second language, and nothing to know of French. am i eligible for this training?



Considering that French & English are Canada's both official languages, being fluent in at least one is highly recommended to serve in the CF.  If an officer wants to progress through the ranks, he/she will eventually need to be able to function comfortably in both languages.

Since English is your second language and your mother tongue is not French, you might want to take SLT in English since you are most familiar with it compared to French.


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## Drag

Tewkster said:
			
		

> Considering that French & English are Canada's both official languages, being fluent in at least one is highly recommended to serve in the CF.  If an officer wants to progress through the ranks, he/she will eventually need to be able to function comfortably in both languages.
> 
> Since English is your second language and your mother tongue is not French, you might want to take SLT in English since you are most familiar with it compared to French.



This is not the intent of SLT.  SLT is intended to increase one's proficiency in their Second Official Language, not their  First Official Language (FOL).  When you join you elect your FOL  My first language is neither English not French but my FOL is English.


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## Wookilar

One thing to consider: All of our tests are either English or French. If you choose English as you FOL, you will not be allowed to take English classes.

It is something that is becoming more of an issue for us. The number of aliphones in the CF is increasing. We have had a number of issues at the school I am currently at due to language barriers. Being functional in English is not the same as being able to successfully complete a technologically advanced course that requires a lot of reading and writing. 

Wook


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## CountDC

Wookilar said:
			
		

> One thing to consider: All of our tests are either English or French. If you choose English as you FOL, you will not be allowed to take English classes.
> 
> It is something that is becoming more of an issue for us. The number of aliphones in the CF is increasing. We have had a number of issues at the school I am currently at due to language barriers. Being functional in English is not the same as being able to successfully complete a technologically advanced course that requires a lot of reading and writing.
> 
> Wook



but as you have to pick between French or English as your FOL it is better to pick the one you are functional in than to pick the one you know nothing in.  For sure you stand a better chance of completing that course.


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## armyguy1

Growing up in the Western part of Canada I never learned to speak French. I am wondering how others have dealt with this when wanting to become an Officer. What home study courses have people had success with? Or what methods of learning French are best?


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## CombatDoc

armyguy1 said:
			
		

> Or what methods of learning French are best?


I recommend a 3 year posting to Valcartier.


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## SkyHeff

I joined the CF with the French ability to count to dix. They will provide the French training when/if you need it. In 10 weeks last summer, I learned more than in the 10 years I took it at school.


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## armyguy1

So it is nothing to worry about. Thank you very much!


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## CombatDoc

armyguy1 said:
			
		

> So it is nothing to worry about. Thank you very much!


I wouldn't say that, exactly.  Your second language profile will very much influence your promotions beyond the rank of Major, and the linguistic bar for full Colonels is set high.  If you are lucky and are properly succession planned, you should receive second language training before you reach the rank at which you need to be bilingual.  I know folks who did not get promoted because they either chose not to complete SLT or because they were not selected = not promotable.  It's a big deal.


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## SharkHunter125

As we all aware the ability to communicate in both official languages is beneficial to Canada as a whole, now that being said I do agree that a second language profile should give a guy a little extra for the ol' PER but 20+ points c'mon that's a little much!! As a tech I can see one of two things happening, you'll have a bunch of eccentric Sgt's of the young fellers learning the trade and getting out leaving trades empty. Another issue is you will then have a switched on pers beat out by a " so so" performer because they have a second language profile. Anyone else share these views or............


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## The Bread Guy

This is one that's been tossed about a fair bit elsewhere a while back:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/946.0.html

Stand by for merge ....

*Milnet.ca Staff*


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## anbeckett

Does anyone know or remember the old system for the French Profile?
I had a 3 +2 -2 +1, but I have no idea what that means anymore.

Thanks for dredging old memories!

A


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## George Wallace

If I remember correctly (It has been a while):

1 = Fluent
2 = Advanced (but not fluent)
3 = Basic knowledge

5 or 8 was Untested

Then you had ( not sure of the order): aural (listening), verbal (spoken), reading and writing.


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## AKa

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was the reverse with 4 representing fluent and a 1 for basic.  I remember everybody striving for 4s across the board.  I'm not sure, but there may have even been a 5 for the highest level of fluency.

Cheers,

AK


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## Badner

Hey there, 

I am entering pres as ncm infantry, and I was wondering what types of programs or training opportunities the military provides to assist me in learning French.

Thank you.


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## MikeL

As a PRes Infantryman(I assume you are still in BC?), you're probably better off taking a French course on your own dime, than waiting for your unit to send you on a French course - Not sure how many Reserve units would be willing to pay to send a member on that course, or what if any positions would be available to PRes units. The online course, if still available would probably be the most realistic(at least as a jr rank).

At the beginning of your Reserve career, your unit is going to be more focused on getting you through BMQ and DP1. After that, it'll be DP2A(Weapons Det Member), driver courses, PLQ, etc. 



As for what second language training is available through the CAF,  there is the year long French course as well as classes(not sure how long, or often they run) at some bases, plus the online course(if still available).

*edited to add,  here is a thread about SLT from a few years ago
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/97672.0

Info about the online course - the allies.forces.gc.ca link no longer works though
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/99459.0


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## Rheostatic

ALLIES Web: http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/training-elearning/second-language-allies.page?


> ALLIES Web is an online second language training program for CAF members that:
> 
> •Has content and is organized according to the competency levels of the Canadian Armed Forces Second Language evaluation. You can even prepare for your language test.
> •Allows you to practise reading, writing, listening, and speaking and maintain your language skills.
> •Allows you to focus on the skills you need and skip the rest.
> •Enables your progress and success to be tracked automatically, which means you can measure your own achievement.



Also, as a CF member you can register for free online second language training through the Canada School of Public Service: http://csps-efpc.gc.ca/BrowseCoursesBySubject/languageacquisition-eng.aspx#fsl


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## NewMedA

The MFRC (Military Family Resource Centre) also offers free access to the Rosetta Stone language training software. Contact the Centre closest to you to be placed on a waiting list. As a reservist, presumably a private and Class A, you will be given lowest priority after others who are higher ranked/in Reg Force, though I don't believe there are a lot of people who request this service so you could easily be at the top of the waiting list.

Here is the link to their website http://www.familyforce.ca/EN/Pages/default.aspx


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## RocketRichard

Greetings 

Would a student who has DELF (Diplome d'études en langue française) level B2 be eligible to bypass French training? I've  phoned around and haven't  got an answer. Asking on behalf of some of my high school students. 

Thanks in advance.


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## sidemount

French training really isnt a requirement...just helps. But in saying that, there is no bypass. If they want to be considered bilingual then they will complete the goverenment of Canada's 2nd language testing. From that they will receive a score of a, b, c, or exempt on reading writing and oral interaction.


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## Loachman

I have moved this thread from the "Ask a CAF Recruiter" forum and merged it with this already-existing thread so that others can comment.


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## RocketRichard

My intent was to ask a recruiter. I will make contact with one or contact  CFLS St Jean.  Thanks.


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## Loachman

Alright, I'm baffled.

Your profile indicates that you are currently serving, so I do not see how Recruiters factor into this.

Are you asking on behalf of somebody else?

If so, is French required for that person's chosen occupation(s)?


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## RocketRichard

Loachman said:
			
		

> Alright, I'm baffled.
> 
> Your profile indicates that you are currently serving, so I do not see how Recruiters factor into this.
> 
> Are you asking on behalf of somebody else?
> 
> If so, is French required for that person's chosen occupation(s)?



PM  inbound.


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## Loachman

Seen and understood. Wait out.


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## da1root

Good Morning,

If your intent is to ask a Recruiter Specifically I'm not sure what French Training you're talking about.
The only "French training" I'm aware of is the training that is required once you reach a point in your career that you need to be bilingual.
At that point in time if someone is already bilingual in their life they can do the placement tests (oral, written, reading) to get a Language Profile.

If you are talking about something else please do not hesitate to get in touch with me,
Cheers,
Sgt Laen


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## RocketRichard

Thanks. I already found the answer.


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## Hound Dog

Hello everyone,

Wondering if anyone has any info on the potential availability of SLT for PRes officers? I am looking at applying to be a Legal Officer, and while being functionally bilingual would be highly valuable in that profession, I also recognize the hesitation that the CF may have in providing such training to reservists (costs, slots available, etc).

To clarify: I am already hooked up with AlliesWeb and today learned the Canada School of Public Service also has an online language module (thanks, handy search button!), so I am not seeking info on self-study opportunities (unless someone knows of something better than the aforementioned).

Thanks in advance!


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## PuckChaser

If you're near a major base they have half day courses as well as some drop in stuff. You'd have to get your unit to sign off on paying you all those half days to take it. Anything more than that, and it's extremely competitive for the RegF members, which likely means next to impossible for Cl A types.


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## Hound Dog

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> If you're near a major base they have half day courses as well as some drop in stuff. You'd have to get your unit to sign off on paying you all those half days to take it. Anything more than that, and it's extremely competitive for the RegF members, which likely means next to impossible for Cl A types.



Gotcha, thanks!


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## rugami

Recently had my placement interview and am heading off on year-long french training in Saint-Jean.  I am still in the dark a bit regarding the course structure.  I have the dates but that's about it.

Questions that come to mind are class sizes, course structure, how much leave I should burn heading into it / will there be Christmas / march break block.  I figure most of what I am looking for is on the CFLS SharePoint site just have not had the time to locate it.

Anyone completed year-long SLT in the last couple years (since '13 we will say) that might be able to help me out?


----------



## LoKe

Is language testing only available in Ottawa?  I'm currently out of country and I'm wondering if there's a way to do it remotely, with an invigilator if necessary?


----------



## mariomike

Received this question via PM. 

I'll post it here for the members,



> I was hoping to ask you a quick question about BMQ. How helpful would it be to be able to speak a solid amount of french. Also would you recommend me becoming fully fluent in French eventually?


----------



## FinnO25

Hey all.

So I was just wondering if anyone has some first hand knowledge on the subject of picking up an official second language (of course it being french) for when I leave for St. Jean and also how it could benefit me throughout my career with the CF? 

Thanks in Advance!


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I doubt there will be time for official SLT (Second Language Training) during BMQ (like, zero time).  If you are doing BMQ and starting out as a NCM, I would worry about getting thru Basic and your initial occupation training.

There can/are some benefits to having a second language, but the time to wonder and pursue those are after BMQ.  Focus on the puck for now.   :2c:


----------



## FinnO25

Alright! Thanks for the quick answer my friend!


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## Eye In The Sky

No problem.  There is the potential, later on after your are MOC qualified, to pursue SLT but there are so many variables that could make that happen/not happen, its actually pretty hard to guess accurately.


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## jeffb

NCM or Officer, don't count on getting Second Language Training (SLT) unless you happen to be posted to a unit that is the opposite of your first language and even then, it's not guaranteed. There is an online option that the CAF offers members once they are in. There's Rosetta Stone, Duolingo, etc. as well. The availability of SLT over the last few years has dropped dramatically. Whereas officers used to get a few weeks at the end of basic, that program ended about 10 years ago. Positions at the Captain level on the year-long French course exist but in my trade, there are no ATL credits (think positions at an imaginary unit) so any unit that wants to send a Captain on the course has to keep the member on there list for the duration. That is just the case for the artillery mind you, I can't comment on other trades. Essentially the only group of officers that gets SLT in any number is those who went to RMC. As for NCMs, I have seen a few people get it but it would be in the range of 0-2 every year from a Regiment of approximately 500 soldiers. 

I'm not sure how far away from BMQ you are but if you have the opportunity to take a course through your local College, I'd recommend it. Many offer night time classes that can give you a quick primer and help you get a solid base for self-study. 

Best of luck!


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## dapaterson

French language skills: Another approach. (Followed by the greatest Canadian musical cross-over ever).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwW4V72nmGc&t=437s


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