# Military's diversity, inclusion efforts plagued by shortcomings: internal review



## daftandbarmy (31 May 2021)

Depsite the findings it's nice to see an internal report like this, for a change, which suggests that someone has their hand on the tiller (no pun intended, for a change  ):


Military's diversity, inclusion efforts plagued by shortcomings: internal review​An internal Defence Department review completed last fall found significant problems and shortcomings in attempts to promote diversity and inclusion across the Canadian Armed Forces.

Those problems included a lack of leadership and insufficient resources and time to push real change, with reviewers suggesting in their final report that the entire effort was poorly defined and planned from the start.

The military also failed to set up any ways to measure whether the work they were doing was having any success aside from trying to recruit more women, Indigenous Canadians and people of colour, according to the report.

"There lacks a common understanding of the overall vision, objectives, outcomes and indicators of success for diversity and inclusion across DND and the CAF," reads one of the report’s key findings.

The review was completed in September, before the recent rash of allegations of sexual misconduct involving several top commanders, which has cast a harsh light on the military’s failure to eradicate such behaviour despite years of promises.

The government has since asked retired Supreme Court justice Louise Arbour to come up with ways to finally eliminate inappropriate sexual behaviour in the Canadian Armed Forces.

A senior female officer, Lt.-Gen. Jennie Carignan, has also been officially tapped to lead the military’s efforts to change its culture, which will include implementing Arbour’s recommendations and addressing hate in the ranks.

The report, which was only recently published on the Defence Department’s website, underscores the importance of promoting diversity and inclusion in eliminating barriers and creating organizations that are "high performing and operationally effective."

It also references past assertions by the government and senior commanders that such efforts will help with recruitment at a time when the military is trying to attract more people, and ensure it better reflects Canadian society.

Yet the review found that despite plans to spend around $600 million a year on initiatives such as research, training and recruitment, those efforts were hamstrung by "a lack of common understanding of what diversity and inclusion entails."

The review also found that there were two different structures set up to manage initiatives, resulting in "unclear roles and responsibilities (that have) created challenges such as pursuing different directions and priorities."

"This has created gaps and duplication of efforts with respect to diversity and inclusion initiatives across DND and the CAF," the report adds. "This has further negatively impacted the design and delivery of the diversity and inclusion activities and initiatives."

One area where the military has clear targets is around the percentage of members who identify as women, Indigenous Canadians or people of colour, with the aim of increasing representation of each by 2026.

While the report notes that momentum has been slow across the board, as has been previously reported by The Canadian Press, the reviewers expressed some concern that the targets largely represent the only metric being used to assess progress.

"More recent information and data are needed to report on the current state of diversity (and) inclusion within DND and the CAF," reads another of the report’s key findings.

Defence Department spokeswoman Lisa Fiander said in an email that officials are working to address the shortcoming identified in the report, starting with the creation of a new committee headed by senior military and civilian officials to oversee the effort.

A five-year plan is also being developed to increase the representation of women, Indigenous Canadians and people of colour in the ranks, she said, while an advisory panel on systemic racism and discrimination was created in December.

"Our self-examination has not stopped there," Fiander added, noting Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan has asked military ombudsman Gregory Lick to conduct his own investigation into diversity issues in the department and military.

Military's diversity, inclusion efforts plagued by shortcomings: internal review


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## Colin Parkinson (31 May 2021)

So it's consistent with most other programs?


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## Edward Campbell (31 May 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> So it's consistent with most other programs?


I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.


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## daftandbarmy (31 May 2021)

Edward Campbell said:


> I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry.



Why not do both. It would be appropriate in this case I would venture.


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## Navy_Pete (31 May 2021)

So we don't really know why the previous program didn't work because it was poorly planned, inadequately resourced and not clearly defined, so we're getting a pool of the same people together to try and come up with something different?

But sure, poor leadership in the execution of the unclear, underfunded plan.

DND isn't really all that inclusive towards keeping existing members either, but at least the 'if you don't like it, get out' offer is an equal opportunity initiative.


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## Brad Sallows (1 Jun 2021)

A new committee, and a five year plan!  All will be well.

I suppose someone must have done some kind of feasibility study at some point to determine, for example, what percentage of each year's women graduating high school have "career in CAF" among top 3 choices, and particularly, "career in CAF pointy-end jobs".  Never actually been shown the numbers, though.


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## FSTO (1 Jun 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> A new committee, and a five year plan!  All will be well.
> 
> I suppose someone must have done some kind of feasibility study at some point to determine, for example, what percentage of each year's women graduating high school have "career in CAF" among top 3 choices, and particularly, "career in CAF pointy-end jobs".  Never actually been shown the numbers, though.


Maybe they did and didn't like the data they received.


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## kev994 (1 Jun 2021)

FSTO said:


> Maybe they did and didn't like the data they received.


Or the answers that people wanted to give weren’t one of the 4 options presented.


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## CBH99 (1 Jun 2021)

So DND and the GoC can find around $600 million a year to help execute this “foggy, non specific idea that sounds nice” - but EITS is still short a flightsuit, and we can’t fund a one time purchase of DMR’s?  

We have over a billion magically appear to buy used Australian jets which were never planned for, and $600 million to help get this idea going with “research, training, and recruitment” - but our goals are poorly defined?

How can something be funded to the tune of around $600 million, with apparently no clear plan on how to spend it, since we don’t have a specific goal or a way to measure if we’ve reached it?  

(Or is that $600 million already a part of regular spending, and I just confused myself?)


What would we consider success in regards to this issue though?  And how would we measure it?


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## Jarnhamar (1 Jun 2021)

> $600 million a year on initiatives such as research, training and recruitment,



I'd really like to see the breakdown of how that $600M is allocated.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Jun 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'd really like to see the breakdown of how that $600M is allocated.



Believe me, with programs like this, I'd avoid looking under the hood if you want to be able to sleep at night


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## dapaterson (1 Jun 2021)

Remember, about 1/3 of DND/CAF spending is Regular Force pay (ignoring the employer share if CFSA, CPP and EI).  That's likely a significant chunk of that $600M.


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## CBH99 (1 Jun 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Remember, about 1/3 of DND/CAF spending is Regular Force pay (ignoring the employer share if CFSA, CPP and EI).  That's likely a significant chunk of that $600M.


Good point, and critical to remember.

However, that still leaves "roughly" $400 million...

I guess my question is - is the $600 million for 'research, training and recruitment' part of funds already used for already existing training, recruiting centres, etc.  Or is this $600 million set aside specifically to recruit more women, and more people of colour?


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## daftandbarmy (1 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Good point, and critical to remember.
> 
> However, that still leaves "roughly" $400 million...
> 
> I guess my question is - is the $600 million for 'research, training and recruitment' part of funds already used for already existing training, recruiting centres, etc.  Or is this $600 million set aside specifically to recruit more women, and more people of colour?



Dude... 'diversity' is more than just about recruiting more women and PoCs. 

And therein lies one of the key planning issues, I suppose


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## Navy_Pete (1 Jun 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> I'd really like to see the breakdown of how that $600M is allocated.


$10M on existing plans; $590M in 'reserved funding' to be returned at end of fiscal. They don't actually have to have an actual plan to spend money to make a PR announcement, nor does it actually have to be officially allocated anywhere.

They can splash out on some third party reports (usually telling us what our own internal staffwork already says, but in more details and with better graphics than a briefing note), renovate someone's office and create yet another senior executive position without actually accomplishing anything. Even in Ottawa there are groups that the rest of the bureaucracy avoids so things can maybe get done... working in the NCR sometimes feels like guerilla warfare with paperwork and forms, and things get done despite the business processes.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Jun 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> $10M on existing plans; $590M in 'reserved funding' to be returned at end of fiscal. They don't actually have to have an actual plan to spend money to make a PR announcement, nor does it actually have to be officially allocated anywhere.
> 
> They can splash out on some third party reports (usually telling us what our own internal staffwork already says, but in more details and with better graphics than a briefing note), renovate someone's office and create yet another senior executive position without actually accomplishing anything. Even in Ottawa there are groups that the rest of the bureaucracy avoids so things can maybe get done... working in the NCR sometimes feels like guerilla warfare with paperwork and forms, and things get done despite the business processes.



Don't worry....


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## Good2Golf (1 Jun 2021)

dapaterson said:


> Remember, about 1/3 of DND/CAF spending is Regular Force pay (ignoring the employer share if CFSA, CPP and EI).  That's likely a significant chunk of that $600M.


Ah, so classic Governmental ‘re-announcing’ funding, since half of it is already a funded statutory expenditure... 🥱


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## CBH99 (1 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Dude... 'diversity' is more than just about recruiting more women and PoCs.
> 
> And therein lies one of the key planning issues, I suppose


Oh I know there is!  🤥

Just hadn't had my coffee yet, that's all...  🤷‍♂️


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## dapaterson (1 Jun 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Ah, so classic Governmental ‘re-announcing’ funding, since half of it is already a funded statutory expenditure... 🥱


If it wasn't for reannouncements what would ministerial PA staff do to fill their time?


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## MilEME09 (1 Jun 2021)

Perhaps the problem lays in the fact many in any demographic not just minorities do not see the CAF as a viable career option


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## Good2Golf (1 Jun 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Perhaps the problem lays in the fact many in any demographic not just minorities do not see the CAF as a viable career option


Is ‘diversity-supportive conscription’ a COA? Or perhaps a ‘diversity signing bonus?’ 🤔


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## mariomike (1 Jun 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Perhaps the problem lays in the fact many in any demographic not just minorities do not see the CAF as a viable career option


I'm no Recruiter. Just another guy with an opinion.  So, take this for what it's worth.

But, the Civil Service and the army have always provided a secure means of making a living. So, there's that.

Also, in addition to the Legion and unit associations, maybe , or maybe not, fraternal organizations might spark some community interest?

They have been around for decades in emergency services.


			Fraternals - NYPD


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## daftandbarmy (1 Jun 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Perhaps the problem lays in the fact many in any demographic not just minorities do not see the CAF as a viable career option



Our recruiting efforts are largely invisible to the civilian marketplace, IMHO as a rsult of applying marketing strategies familiar to those operating 20, 30 or even 40 years ago.

As a result, I don't know if you can draw any firm conclusions as to who is, or is not, attracted to the CAF.


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## lenaitch (1 Jun 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> Is ‘diversity-supportive conscription’ a COA? Or perhaps a ‘diversity signing bonus?’ 🤔



No including the signing bonuses but didn't the US do that with conscription during the Viet Nam war?  Lots of urban poor and POC who didn't have the capacity to secure a deferment.

Targeting diversity recruiting likely focuses on urban populations and bypasses the rural, which I think historically has been a rich recruiting base.


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Jun 2021)

Part of the issue with targeting immigrants is they often have bad or low opinions of militaries based on their experiences in their old countries. In some countries, the military is seen as corrupt, brutal and only for the low class and uneducated. Most immigrants see economic success as the way forward and devote their energies there. They don't see how a military career either full or part time will benefit them or their children.

Even in the Public Service here in Vancouver, despite a large Persian population, you rarely see any Persian people working for government, they don't see it as a way to get rich. i am also seeing this play out for our Navy League Corp and trying to find a way to massage our messaging for a predominantly Persian/Mainland Chinese immigrant demographic.


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## Good2Golf (1 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> No including the signing bonuses but didn't the US do that with conscription during the Viet Nam war?  Lots of urban poor and POC who didn't have the capacity to secure a deferment.
> 
> Targeting diversity recruiting likely focuses on urban populations and bypasses the rural, which I think historically has been a rich recruiting base.


My initial comments were somewhat tongue in cheek, but could even a targeted recruiting bounty or equivalent achieve the desired/stated targets.  As well, what is the intended end-state based on.  Should the diversity and gender composition reflect that of Canadian society now, or as it will appear in the future?

Recruiting efforts are only one aspect (induction) of HR composition; does there need to be targeted retention as well?  Maybe if the targeted composition is important enough, the government needs to consider some kind of Charter-exempt gender/minority retention bonus to entice such groups to stay once in?

Thinking outside the box, because I honestly don’t think however flashy requiring ads are, will there be the desired uptake and retention...and...certainly not with today’s CAY issue of poorly behaving older, Caucasian males.

Regards
G2G


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Jun 2021)

Another problem is that Ottawa will want a "nationally consistent" messaging, while the pathway to success, requires regionally and community level marketing. Have marketers in each major recruiting centre in each Province that have a list of core values and needs and a list of verbotten phrases, then let them hire local firms to target specific groups and communities.


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## mariomike (1 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Targeting diversity recruiting likely focuses on urban populations and bypasses the rural, which I think historically has been a rich recruiting base.


You may be on to something there.









						Urban vs Rural recruits. Do similar patterns exist in Canada?
					

The real impact of this article that I see is the relation between the origniating points of soldiers and post-service resources like VAC offices and medical staff.   If most of those soldiers came from small towns and returned to small towns after their service (but no statistics to prove...




					milnet.ca
				



5 pages.

Also, from the National Post back in 2009,

*"Who fights for Canada? Young white men, that's who fights,"* says Douglas Bland, chairman of Queen's University's defence studies program.



Graeme Hamilton, National Post
Published: Saturday, November 07, 2009





Chris Schwarz, Canwest News Service

*"Who fights for Canada? Young white men, that's who fights,"* says Douglas Bland, chairman of Queen's University's defence studies program.

For decades, Remembrance Day was about honouring the ever more distant memory of Canadians killed in the two world wars and in Korea. Then in 2002 in Afghanistan, the country suffered its first combat casualties in nearly half a century, the beginning of a mounting toll that reached 133 last week. Canada has evolved considerably since the Korean armistice of 1953, becoming an overwhelmingly urban and increasingly multicultural society. But while the face of Canada has changed, the faces of its war dead largely have not.
The names, photos and hometowns of those who have died in Afghanistan provide a portrait of the Canadian solider of the 21st century, and in some ways he is not all that different from his 20th-century predecessor. "Who fights for Canada? Young white men, that's who fights," Douglas Bland, chairman of Queen's University's defence studies program, puts it bluntly. There are obviously exceptions to his generalization: three women are among the Canadian dead, as are six members of visible minority groups. But the great majority of casualties are white men between the ages of 20 and 39. They are more likely to have grown up in small towns than in major cities. And relative to its population, Atlantic Canada has suffered the heaviest losses.

The numbers suggest that significant pockets of the country are content to leave military service -- and the danger it entails -- to others. They also raise questions about the Canadian Forces' ability to confront demographic change that is draining its traditional recruitment pool. With each census, Canada's population becomes more concentrated in its major metropolises. In 2006, the six metropolitan areas with populations of over one million people -- Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Ottawa-Gatineau, Calgary and Edmonton -- accounted for 45% of the total population. But of the 133 Afghanistan dead, 26 -- or 20% --come from those cities.
The metro Toronto census area, which encompasses surrounding suburbs and makes up nearly one-sixth of the Canadian population, has lost four soldiers, 3% of total casualties. Truro, N.S., with a population of 12,000, has lost as many of its men. Metropolitan Montreal and Calgary have seen eight and six soldiers killed, respectively, while just one has come from the Vancouver area.
The four Atlantic provinces, with 7% of the national population, account for 23% of the dead. Saskatchewan's eight fallen soldiers represent double its share of the population.

"The casualties do tell us something important about the composition of our force," says Christian Leuprecht, a professor at the Royal Military College who is currently a visiting professor of Canadian Studies at Yale University. "There is a considerable over-representation from rural areas, and there has traditionally been over-representation from Atlantic Canada. That's partially a function of how virtually all militaries recruit. They tend to recruit from lower socio-economic strata ... and from areas that economically don't do as well. In those areas the military is an attractive employer and, interestingly, an institution for social mobility within a society." Figures provided by the Department of National Defence show that, with a few exceptions, a province's share of the Afghanistan fatalities reflects its share of overall enrolment in the regular forces.
In the post-Charter of Rights era, the army has increased efforts to recruit visible minorities, aboriginals and women. But a 2006 report by Canada's auditor-general found that recruitment among the three groups had fallen well below National Defence targets. According to the latest numbers from the army, 17% of Canadian Forces personnel are women. Visible minorities make up 3.4% of the Forces, compared with 16% of the overall population, and aboriginals are 2.6%, compared with 3.8% of the population. One area where the Forces are becoming more representative of the general population is age, a fact reflected in the Afghanistan casualties.
The Silver Cross mother who saw her young son head off to war and never return has been an icon of Remembrance Day since 1950.
Increasingly the mothers are joined today by widows and grieving children; the military even changed its regulations last year to allow soldiers to designate up to three people, including their children, to receive the medal. "The Canadian Forces are old compared to most militaries," says Alan Okros, a professor of leadership at Canadian Forces College in Toronto. The median age of those killed in Afghanistan is 26, but 51 of them were 30 or older, and 11 were 40 or older. (The median age among all Forces personnel is 33.) The ages of the dead "set this mission apart from any other mission," Mr. Leuprecht says.

Education levels are also on the rise among Canadian Forces personnel, a reflection of the increasingly technical nature of modern warfare, a 2008 Statistics Canada report found. In 1988, 19% of regular force personnel had a post-secondary degree or diploma while 26% had not finished high school. By 2002, almost half of the regular forces had a post-secondary degree or diploma and just 7% had failed to finish high school. "I'm competing head to head with all the major tech corporations in the world really, but in Canada specifically, and we're all seeking the same education demographic," says Commodore Daniel MacKeigan, commandant of the Canadian Forces Recruiting Group.
An even greater recruitment challenge is the decline of the group that has traditionally provided the bulk of members --fit, young, rural, white males. Growth in the 18-29 age bracket of Canadians is found among the recent immigrant and aboriginal populations where the Canadian Forces have had trouble making inroads. A 2008 National Defence report to gauge aboriginal people's views of enlisting found opposition to the role of increasingly engaging in combat. There were also fears of culture shock and being a minority within the armed forces. Research in Canada's Chinese and South Asian communities has found that young people rely heavily on their parents and the larger community for approval, and military service is not considered a desirable career.

"In cultural communities, there is pressure for children to become professionals, which means the military hasn't managed to position itself as a profession on a par with others," Mr. Leuprecht says. A 2007 editorial in the Asian Pacific Post, a British Columbia newspaper, criticized the community's failure to enlist. "Our strength as new Canadians must not only be measured in economic terms," it said. "We must permeate and be present in all aspects of Canada. That includes the Canadian Forces."
Another obstacle to recruitment is that military bases are no longer found in big cities. People are more likely to consider a military career if they come from a military family or know someone in the Forces.

"In downtown Toronto, where you don't see anybody [in uniform], there is no connection," Mr. Bland says. "Nobody knows anything about the armed forces." Being stationed at a remote base is unappealing to people accustomed to a vibrant city, and the sentiment is particularly pronounced among new arrivals to Canada, says Mr. Okros, who worked on recruiting diversity before he retired from the Forces in 2004. "There's a real reluctance in these close-knit communities to have sons and daughters leave Toronto and go to northern Alberta," he says.
CommodoreMacKeigan says he wants the Forces to more accurately reflect the Canadian population, but there is a lag of several generations between immigrants' arrival in Canada and possible interest in a military career. "Only after people have got established and can sort of breathe easily, then the youth start looking around for other career options," he says.
Mr. Leuprecht notes that the aversion to military service is not confined to recent immigrants; he sees it among university students who are all for a military intervention in Darfur, as long as they're not called upon to serve.

"Why is there this disjuncture, and should we be having these types of expeditionary operations when a good chunk of Canadian society, not just immigrants, would never themselves consider shouldering that sort of burden?" he asks.
Mr. Bland, a retired army lieutenant colonel, says the notion of military service as a part of citizenship, so widespread among Canadians in the two world wars, has largely disappeared. He faults successive federal governments for failing to mobilize Canadians around the idea that the country is at war.
"The army's at war," he says, "and Canada's at peace."


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## daftandbarmy (1 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> You may be on to something there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Part of the issue is that all of our recruiting efforts are quota based, so the tendency is to go 'back to the same well' again, and again, using the same messaging and tools that worked half a century ago when we had the largest population of young people in history (Baby Boomers) and recruiting was the equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel.

We need to get good at marketing people under 25 years of age, for example:

27 Expert Tips for Marketing to Millennials​Here's how to reach the largest living generation.​
As the largest living generation, Millennials are a demographic every brand wants to charm. But the first trick in garnering their loyalty involves getting their attention and keeping it -- no small feat considering these younger consumers aren't as likely as Gen-Xers and Boomers to respond to traditional advertising or marketing tactics. Take some advice from more than two dozen marketing experts and executives who say they've found the secrets to engaging with Millennials. Here are their words on how to market to people younger than 35.









						27 Expert Tips for Marketing to Millennials
					

Here's how to reach the largest living generation.




					www.inc.com


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## OldSolduer (1 Jun 2021)

One of my co workers told me she had thought of joining the CAF but her family was dead set against it. Her family's origins are in the Phillipines (sorry if I messed up the spelling) and they do not trust any military - they remember Marcos and others who use their armed forces to subjugate the population. 
So this is probably one reason the CAF is not as diverse as people would like it to be.

Honestly its a laudable goal but only if quality people apply.


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## Navy_Pete (1 Jun 2021)

Throw it out there that Millenials are now 40; this article is an entire generation behind. Also, blanket plans based on some kind of preconception of what works for a whole generation of people isn't working now, so maybe that's not the best approach, and if we have to start doing dog and pony shows for 'influencers' I will start my retirement slump a decade early and with enthusiasm.


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## mariomike (1 Jun 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> One of my co workers told me she had thought of joining the CAF but her family was dead set against it.


25 pages of tips she can use to get her family on board.








						How to get family on board
					

When I was six years old, I stood in front of a Citizenship Judge and told her that I didn't want to become a Canadian because Canada didn't have an army.  She assured me that indeed it did and so I said OK and swore the oath (of citizenship).  I joined cadets when I was 14 (and regretted not...




					www.milnet.ca
				






> Her family's origins are in the Phillipines (sorry if I messed up the spelling) and they do not trust any military - they remember Marcos and others who use their armed forces to subjugate the population.


Assuming she works in a jail over here? From what little I have read about them back in the old country, they don't  sound like health clubs.


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## FJAG (2 Jun 2021)

So here's an idea. Build several bases close to an urban centre like Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver with facilities for training simulators and sufficient low cost housing for an entire battalion or regiment. Keep the actual equipment at super training bases such as Wainwright and Gagetown with a skeleton maintenance staff around the year. Transport (bus, fly, whatever) the battalion etc to the training base several times a year for full-scale exercises. Create similar reserve battalions in the same area who use the sim equipment on weekends and during the summer and do an annual exercise with the real stuff late summer.

Add to that a general covenant that keeps people within that battalion to career progress as long as they want and thus affording their spouses stable employment opportunities and for everyone to stay near their families. 

Simulation systems have become quite advanced and could probably meet the vast majority of all individual training needs and even many collective training ones. 

A long-term investment in real estate at the level of a 4-500 single and multiple unit family home sub division near an urban centre is not out of the question, will only appreciate in value and will become self sustaining based on rents even if modest.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Jun 2021)

Navy_Pete said:


> Throw it out there that Millenials are now 40; this article is an entire generation behind. Also, blanket plans based on some kind of preconception of what works for a whole generation of people isn't working now, so maybe that's not the best approach, and if we have to start doing dog and pony shows for 'influencers' I will start my retirement slump a decade early and with enthusiasm.



Well, if your idea of great marketing is mall displays, high school visits and mispelled/ out of date brochures and posters, like back in 1980 when I was the recruiting officer for my unit (backed up by an awful/ non-existent virtual media presence) then we're killin' it.


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## FJAG (2 Jun 2021)

Good2Golf said:


> My initial comments were somewhat tongue in cheek, but could even a targeted recruiting bounty or equivalent achieve the desired/stated targets.


My 44 year military career started because a high school stage crew friend of mine got a ten dollar bounty for bringing me down to the armouries.

For those who weren't there in the sixties, $10 bucks bought you sixty stubbies of beer.

😁


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## dimsum (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> So here's an idea. Build several bases close to an urban centre like Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver with facilities for training simulators and sufficient low cost housing for an entire battalion or regiment. Keep the actual equipment at super training bases such as Wainwright and Gagetown with a skeleton maintenance staff around the year. Transport (bus, fly, whatever) the battalion etc to the training base several times a year for full-scale exercises. Create similar reserve battalions in the same area who use the sim equipment on weekends and during the summer and do an annual exercise with the real stuff late summer.


So basically the Australian model, but they also have the real equipment there (and minus the low-cost housing).


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## mariomike (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> My 44 year military career started because a high school stage crew friend of mine got a ten dollar bounty for bringing me down to the armouries.





FJAG said:


> For those who weren't there in the sixties, $10 bucks bought you sixty stubbies of beer.
> 
> 😁



That would be five "Scarborough suitcases". ( That's the 12-pack on top, with the convenient suitcase handle. )

With change left over for cigarettes.  Trying to remember how much a carton cost back then, as we usually got ours from vending machines.


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## Kilted (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> So here's an idea. Build several bases close to an urban centre like Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver with facilities for training simulators and sufficient low cost housing for an entire battalion or regiment. Keep the actual equipment at super training bases such as Wainwright and Gagetown with a skeleton maintenance staff around the year. Transport (bus, fly, whatever) the battalion etc to the training base several times a year for full-scale exercises. Create similar reserve battalions in the same area who use the sim equipment on weekends and during the summer and do an annual exercise with the real stuff late summer.
> 
> Add to that a general covenant that keeps people within that battalion to career progress as long as they want and thus affording their spouses stable employment opportunities and for everyone to stay near their families.
> 
> ...


I feel like bases were intentionally put out of the way to try and keep the troops out of trouble, or at least away from the public eye when they do get into trouble.


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## dapaterson (2 Jun 2021)

Base location and design integrates, in part, an assumption that remote locations with all base functions conveniently dispersed ensures that even if Shilo is hit with a Soviet nuclear weapon, at least clothing stores will survive.


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## mariomike (2 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> I feel like bases were intentionally put out of the way to try and keep the troops out of trouble, or at least away from the public eye when they do get into trouble.


Probably a sensitive topic. But, you may be on to something.


			https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1779243801


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## dimsum (2 Jun 2021)

dapaterson said:


> even if Shilo is hit with a Soviet nuclear weapon, at least clothing stores will survive.


And will have less need to give out clothing.  Win-win on their part.


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## dapaterson (2 Jun 2021)

Clothing stores does not exist to give out clothing.  That's the first error in your assumptions.


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## TangoTwoBravo (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> So here's an idea. Build several bases close to an urban centre like Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver with facilities for training simulators and *sufficient low cost housing for an entire battalion or regiment. *


Not sure how you intend to do that. Getting RegF posted to major urban centres is a huge challenge due to housing costs. The CAF can't just wave a magic wand and provide low-cost housing (ie below what the market value would be) without it being a benefit.


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## lenaitch (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> So here's an idea. Build several bases close to an urban centre like Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver with facilities for training simulators and sufficient low cost housing for an entire battalion or regiment. Keep the actual equipment at super training bases such as Wainwright and Gagetown with a skeleton maintenance staff around the year. Transport (bus, fly, whatever) the battalion etc to the training base several times a year for full-scale exercises. Create similar reserve battalions in the same area who use the sim equipment on weekends and during the summer and do an annual exercise with the real stuff late summer.
> 
> Add to that a general covenant that keeps people within that battalion to career progress as long as they want and thus affording their spouses stable employment opportunities and for everyone to stay near their families.
> 
> ...



It _might_ work (for the army anyway), depending on what is meant by "close". It would still entail a fair chunk of expensive and increasingly rare real estate around some of the urban areas, and building from scratch.  I'm really only familiar with the GTA; perhaps a re-purposed Borden would work, but even that would be seen as a long haul for many urban young.

Are military housing rates geared to reflect local housing costs?

It still doesn't address any social or cultural reluctance to joining the military regardless of where it is.  Way back in the day, cadet corps, ROTC structures etc. were active in high schools and post secondary institutions. Given today's educational leadership aversion to anything military (or police, or the dominant social structure in general), I really don't see the military being able to increase its image or footprint among the demographic it seems to want to attract.  I've heard of rending of garments when Recruiting wanted to have a booth at a career fair.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> So basically the Australian model, but they also have the real equipment there (and minus the low-cost housing).



Just about every country in Europe does this too. Mainly because they have few other options due to space restrictions, but it keeps troops closer to family unts etc than is possible in Canada.


----------



## FJAG (2 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> That would be five "Scarborough suitcases". ( That's the 12-pack on top, with the convenient suitcase handle. )
> 
> With change left over for cigarettes.  Trying to remember how much a carton cost back then, as we usually got ours from vending machines.


Not sure about a carton. My mom used to send me to the corner drugstore down the street (and yup, we lived in Scarborough) to pick her up a pack or two of cigarettes each day. I recall they were $0.20 for a pack of twenty then. I made most of my pocket money in those days for the $0.10 DC comic books I bought by forgetting to give her the change. - Ended up never smoking in my life except for the second hand smoke that enveloped me on a daily basis - it's miracle I never got lung cancer.

😁


----------



## MilEME09 (2 Jun 2021)

In theory local housing market shouldn't matter much, if you build enough low cost housing for all base personal within the confines of the base, in theory it would help boost the local economy. Create a good mix of apartments, and multi family row housing, invite the business community in to potential add some small business into the mix and you might be good to go.

The difficult part would be land, but post pandemic DND may be able to buy land off the market for a fair price for awhile.


----------



## FJAG (2 Jun 2021)

TangoTwoBravo said:


> Not sure how you intend to do that. Getting RegF posted to major urban centres is a huge challenge due to housing costs. The CAF can't just wave a magic wand and provide low-cost housing (ie below what the market value would be) without it being a benefit.


Developers that build subdivisions generally do not lose money. Assuming that you do not sell the units (and you wouldn't for a base) you'd have a predictable income stream so that there is a complete return on investment after a given number of years followed by a constant profit thereafter.

We built PMQs in the fifties and sixties that have been paid for a dozen times over and which continue to generate income. We continue to do this all the time through CMHC for First Nations' housing with nowhere near the control over the income stream that would be available through the military.

The issue that I see here is that we do not get enough the numbers or the diversity that we want from urban centres so one solution is to make it more attractive for diverse, big urban centre dwellers to join. Staying close to home for much of their career is one answer. Eliminating the exorbitant cost of urban home ownership through a military sub division is one answer. It's an accounting issue and think of it this way - it would be a large scale military project that actually has the ability to generate income. What a novel idea. Tell young Justin and Harjit about it now while they are looking for ways to spend money.

Anyway it's a thought. But I do tend to agree with you in one respect - DND would never do it because it would take a ten year study to convince themselves its impossible. But on the other hand it could create a job for a new general and all his staff so - maybe? 😉

🍻


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jun 2021)

Having a couple of permanent overseas bases would help.  I suspect most older members who were posted to Germany enjoyed their time there.


----------



## mariomike (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> Not sure about a carton. My mom used to send me to the corner drugstore down the street (and yup, we lived in Scarborough) to pick her up a pack or two of cigarettes each day. I recall they were $0.20 for a pack of twenty then. I made most of my pocket money in those days for the $0.10 DC comic books I bought by forgetting to give her the change. - Ended up never smoking in my life except for the second hand smoke that enveloped me on a daily basis - it's miracle I never got lung cancer.
> 
> 😁


Funny how public opinion changes. "In the hospital, the nurse would bring the baby and I had a cigarette here, a breast here, and a baby there."

On the other hand, I grew up in a "Dry" area. Nothing stronger than a Ginger Ale was available until into the 2000's. Even with your meal in a restaurant. No beer or wine.

Only place licensed was the Legion. When bars were finally allowed, the Legion shut down.


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> Developers that build subdivisions generally do not lose money. Assuming that you do not sell the units (and you wouldn't for a base) you'd have a predictable income stream so that there is a complete return on investment after a given number of years followed by a constant profit thereafter.
> 
> We built PMQs in the fifties and sixties that have been paid for a dozen times over and which continue to generate income. We continue to do this all the time through CMHC for First Nations' housing with nowhere near the control over the income stream that would be available through the military.
> 
> ...



Or just hire people for five or six years then kick them out/ transfer them to the reserve list. In the meantime they can live in the field ina  trench, or in barracks.

Why should we owe every single person who walks through the door to the recruiter's office 25 years and a full pension, with the expectation that they'll own a house/car etc? That's a 1950/60s thing. We might select a cadre of longer term staff who these terms of service might apply to, based on need and performance.

Fewer and fewer employers are doing that these days manily becasue fewer and fewer employees are committing to a life long term of employment with a single employer.


----------



## FJAG (2 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> Funny how public opinion changes. "In the hospital, the nurse would bring the baby and I had a cigarette here, a breast here, and a baby there."
> 
> On the other hand, I grew up in a "Dry" area. Nothing stronger than a Ginger Ale was available until into the 2000's. Even with your meal in a restaurant. No beer or wine,
> 
> Only place licensed was the Legion.


No such problem in Scarborough. The legal drinking age was 21 then but we were already getting well taken care of in the local bars at age 16.  Maybe the fact that the bars had two sections then - one for "gentlemen" and the other for "ladies and escorts" and they shut down over the supper hour so that everyone was supposed to go home to eat.

🍻


----------



## mariomike (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> Maybe the fact that the bars had two sections then - one for "gentlemen" and the other for "ladies and escorts"
> 
> 🍻


"Ladies and Escorts" was discussed in
Alcohol, Surveillance and the LCBO 1927–1975​


			Punched Drunk - Ladies and Escorts


----------



## FJAG (2 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Or just hire people for five or six years then kick them out/ transfer them to the reserve list. In the meantime they can live in the field ina  trench, or in barracks.
> 
> Why should we owe every single person who walks through the door to the recruiter's office 25 years and a full pension, with the expectation that they'll own a house/car etc? That's a 1950/60s thing. We might select a cadre of longer term staff who these terms of service might apply to, based on need and performance.
> 
> Fewer and fewer employers are doing that these days manily becasue fewer and fewer employees are committing to a life long term of employment with a single employer.



I'm actually on board with that.

My gut tells me the reason why we have so many senior officers and NCOs clogging Ottawa is because we have, bit by bit, created career fields/jobs for long serving folks. My personal bugbear is the CWOs in the JAG branch. Not that I think that there is no use for military v civilian paralegals - I think we need quite a few to do the bulk of the clerical work that legal officers do for themselves - but because this was in my mind just a shameless way to keep a dozen or more CWOs in the system. For the money we spend I'd prefer to see twice as many corporals through sergeants in the branch.

We're in a vicious spiral of creating new administrative functions at headquarters and filling them with long serving "experienced" officers and NCMs which results in taking the really good ones away from the battalions and also creating a dumping ground for the ones that checked out mentally years ago.

🍻


----------



## daftandbarmy (2 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> Probably a sensitive topic. But, you may be on to something.
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1779243801



In the reserves we don't need to worry about where soldiers live. They report in for training/operations, then go home afterwards, as required.

Maybe the Reg F could follow that lead?


----------



## lenaitch (2 Jun 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> In theory local housing market shouldn't matter much, if you build enough low cost housing for all base personal within the confines of the base, in theory it would help boost the local economy. Create a good mix of apartments, and multi family row housing, invite the business community in to potential add some small business into the mix and you might be good to go.
> 
> The difficult part would be land, but post pandemic DND may be able to buy land off the market for a fair price for awhile.



Perhaps in some areas but around the GTA, housing and land prices were high before and off the dial during Covid. I imagine Lower Mainland BC is the same.   The further you go out to find cheaper land, perhaps provincial Crown land, you tend to negate the advantage - being close to an urban area - you were trying to solve.

As for small businesses, how many bases have anything other than a Tim's or Subway?  Borden used to have a MacDonald's that closed (I don't know why).   I would imagine having the federal government as a landlord plus all the restrictions of operating on a military establishment isn't all that much fun.  You are essentially building a restrictive government 'company town'.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Jun 2021)

Plus the government has seen the big chunks of government owned land as a cash cow and divested much of it. Except now they have to clean it up and sell it at a deal to the local First Nations if they want it.


----------



## quadrapiper (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> I'm actually on board with that.
> 
> My gut tells me the reason why we have so many senior officers and NCOs clogging Ottawa is because we have, bit by bit, created career fields/jobs for long serving folks. My personal bugbear is the CWOs in the JAG branch. Not that I think that there is no use for military v civilian paralegals - I think we need quite a few to do the bulk of the clerical work that legal officers do for themselves - but because this was in my mind just a shameless way to keep a dozen or more CWOs in the system. For the money we spend I'd prefer to see twice as many corporals through sergeants in the branch.
> 
> ...


Would a broad improvement in IPCs (maybe with an upper band only available post certain training or other assessable milestones), or a tech/specialist vs. leadership split accommodate the reasonable desire to reward/retain people working above the pan-CAF baseline for Cpl-Sgt without encouraging the skewing effect of more WOs-CWOs?


----------



## quadrapiper (2 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> Plus the government has seen the big chunks of government owned land as a cash cow and divested much of it. Except now they have to clean it up and sell it at a deal to the local First Nations if they want it.


Wonder how much a sitting government could do to make future divestment awkward or impossible? Whether or not we're ever dealing with another WWI/II situation and suddenly pulling in thousands of e.g. Greater Vancouver residents, hanging on to land that _was_ useful, in areas where getting land (especially land that isn't massively built up) is hard to impossible, seems as much of a "reserve" function as the PRes itself.

Re: basing, could see aligning location-agnostic new bases with CMHC and related affordable housing efforts: ID an area adjacent to current development and get not just the base and associated PMQs built, but create an instant associated population mass to drive public service and private business interest. Looking around Vancouver, depending on how close to existing urban areas you'd need to be for that to help, places like Anmore, up Indian Arm, and up the North Shore valleys come to mind, if just remilitarizing Chilliwack isn't an option.


----------



## Old Sweat (2 Jun 2021)

Can you imagine the outcry if DND tried to build accommodation that underpriced the local civilian market. I seem to recall that there was firm direction that this was not allowed, and that the PMQ rents were tied to the local prevailing rates. When the annual (always upwards) adjustments were made, the local rents in the civilian economy increased accordingly. The rationale was that the married patch was large enough to trigger an increase in the rents charged for other properties in the local economy. 

And the long term goal, as stated by the central agencies in the Federal Government was to get out of the providing accommodation business. Now, this was decades ago, but I suspect any attempt to provide "subsidized" housing to our members would run afoul of one or more of the above arguments, led by the local MPs.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jun 2021)

There may be urban areas in Canada still suitable for nearby bases, but the BC lower mainland is not one.  It is basically good agricultural land hemmed in by ocean, mountains, and a border.  All of that land is too valuable for other uses.  If a base were introduced in BC, it would be better to pick one of the southern interior communities, excluding Kelowna.


----------



## Good2Golf (2 Jun 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Perhaps in some areas but around the GTA, housing and land prices were high before and off the dial during Covid. I imagine Lower Mainland BC is the same.   The further you go out to find cheaper land, perhaps provincial Crown land, you tend to negate the advantage - being close to an urban area - you were trying to solve.
> 
> As for small businesses, how many bases have anything other than a Tim's or Subway?  Borden used to have a MacDonald's that closed (I don't know why).   I would imagine having the federal government as a landlord plus all the restrictions of operating on a military establishment isn't all that much fun.  You are essentially building a restrictive government 'company town'.


It was in some degree the public clamoring unfair’ to military subsidized housing that saw all the Qs in Downsview torn down and lands transferred to to Canada Lands Company in 1995.

Honestly, the Government doesn’t want diversity so badly that it’s anywhere close
To recreating subsidized military housing to attract/retain new, diverse CAF members close to major urban centres.  It’s easier to Chuck crap at a department saying it’s not doing enough, than it is to seriously address the issue.

Diversity and recruiting and retention of minorities won’t be solved any time soon (if ever), there are just so many other issues the government (of the day) is inteterested with that CAF/DND sustainability/mirroring Canadian society is way down the list.

The current government is happy enough that no one’s asking about replacements for the Governor General and what happens when the PM gets his next (4th) not-Strike for breaching ethics policies, etc...

Regards
G2G


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## dimsum (2 Jun 2021)

Old Sweat said:


> Can you imagine the outcry if DND tried to build accommodation that underpriced the local civilian market. I seem to recall that there was firm direction that this was not allowed, and that the PMQ rents were tied to the local prevailing rates. When the annual (always upwards) adjustments were made, the local rents in the civilian economy increased accordingly. The rationale was that the married patch was large enough to trigger an increase in the rents charged for other properties in the local economy.
> 
> And the long term goal, as stated by the central agencies in the Federal Government was to get out of the providing accommodation business. Now, this was decades ago, but I suspect any attempt to provide "subsidized" housing to our members would run afoul of one or more of the above arguments, led by the local MPs.


In that case, can members refuse to get posted, or VR immediately (not 6 months afterwards, when they've already moved)? 

We can't increase PLD (or an equivalent cost-of-living adjustment) because it's not our money, we can't make cheaper housing, and we won't move the bases.  So what can we do if a member knows they're going to a place they can't afford?


----------



## Kilted (2 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> In that case, can members refuse to get posted, or VR immediately (not 6 months afterwards, when they've already moved)?
> 
> We can't increase PLD (or an equivalent cost-of-living adjustment) because it's not our money, we can't make cheaper housing, and we won't move the bases.  So what can we do if a member knows they're going to a place they can't afford?


Live in the shacks and not bring their family with them I guess.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Jun 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> There may be urban areas in Canada still suitable for nearby bases, but the BC lower mainland is not one. * It is basically good agricultural land hemmed in by ocean, mountains, and a border.  All of that land is too valuable for other uses*.  If a base were introduced in BC, it would be better to pick one of the southern interior communities, excluding Kelowna.


We could probably get some good deals on cruise ships. 

Make a floating base.

Could even use houseboats for PMQs. Throw some tankers in, clear off the top for some helicopter landing pads. 

You can up and move your base; worked for the Terran Confederacy.


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## Colin Parkinson (2 Jun 2021)

Subsidized housing is fairly common in most militaries around the world, generally private married soldiers get to live in a apartment block and officers detached or semi-detached housing.


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## FJAG (2 Jun 2021)

Old Sweat said:


> Can you imagine the outcry if DND tried to build accommodation that underpriced the local civilian market. I seem to recall that there was firm direction that this was not allowed, and that the PMQ rents were tied to the local prevailing rates. When the annual (always upwards) adjustments were made, the local rents in the civilian economy increased accordingly. The rationale was that the married patch was large enough to trigger an increase in the rents charged for other properties in the local economy.


There's a simple slight of hand. Charge market rates and then provide a housing/accommodation allowance. This is a concept used around the world and even in Ontario there is a program called the Canada-Ontario Housing Benefit to assist low income families with rent in high-rent areas.

There are dozen's of ways to skin the cat if one makes up one's mind that the cat needs skinning.


Old Sweat said:


> And the long term goal, as stated by the central agencies in the Federal Government was to get out of the providing accommodation business. Now, this was decades ago, but I suspect any attempt to provide "subsidized" housing to our members would run afoul of one or more of the above arguments, led by the local MPs.


Just like the Federal government to divest itself of any kind of a program that can pay for itself and even make a profit. I seriously doubt any local MP would take a negative approach to the military building a large housing subdivision/base within his local area providing jobs and economic benefits for his whole riding just because of how the rents are controlled.

I have now utterly wasted the entire day on this website.   

🍻


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## dimsum (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> I have now utterly wasted the entire day on this website.


Join the club.


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## mariomike (2 Jun 2021)

FJAG said:


> I have now utterly wasted the entire day on this website.
> 
> 🍻


But, it's time - well - wasted.   








						Time well wasted
					

Birthday	1966-09-27 47 Years, 143 Days, 23 Hours, 46 Minutes ago Date Registered	2006-05-23 7 Years, 260 Days, 0 Hour, 8 Minutes ago Total Time Logged In	37 Days, 1 Hour, 17 Minutes % Of Your Life You've Been Registered Here	16.2727 % % Of Your Life Online Since Registration	1.3163 % % Of Your...




					www.milnet.ca
				



19 pages.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Jun 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> There may be urban areas in Canada still suitable for nearby bases, but the BC lower mainland is not one.  It is basically good agricultural land hemmed in by ocean, mountains, and a border.  All of that land is too valuable for other uses.  If a base were introduced in BC, it would be better to pick one of the southern interior communities, excluding Kelowna.



There are already thousands of troops based in the Lower Mainland: reservists.

Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal, Halifax etc etc.... all examples of heavily urbanized locations with thousands of reservists.

If we can run Class A regiments from Vancouver/Lower Mainland, why not Reg Force?


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## FSTO (3 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> You may be on to something there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not many cries for diversity when the soldiers getting killed were overwhelmingly white and rural.
I'm especially annoyed today for some reason..........


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## mariomike (3 Jun 2021)

FSTO said:


> Not many cries for diversity when the soldiers getting killed were overwhelmingly white and rural.
> I'm especially annoyed today for some reason..........


I wasn't the Original Poster...........

Reads like the same discussion, different year.

The OP had this to say,



> I have had some unfortunate experiences with recruits out of the Toronto area (although judging from their dress, attitude etc., I think they would have done poorly in any structured environment), this article suggests differences may be very environmental in nature.











						Urban vs Rural recruits. Do similar patterns exist in Canada?
					

The real impact of this article that I see is the relation between the origniating points of soldiers and post-service resources like VAC offices and medical staff.   If most of those soldiers came from small towns and returned to small towns after their service (but no statistics to prove...




					milnet.ca


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## FSTO (3 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> I wasn't the Original Poster.
> 
> The OP had this to say,
> 
> ...


I wasn't flinging shade at you. It was just an observation in general that the chattering classes scream diversity when convenient and then shut up when the ramp ceremonies commence. 

I'll shut up now cause I'll only get myself in trouble.


----------



## Kilted (3 Jun 2021)

I know it might not be politically correct to say this, but should we not be more concerned with the number of people in uniform then what colour they are.  I know it might not make the government look very good, but if say 70% of our military is going to continue to be white and male, does that actually effect our operational capabilities? While the European demographic by percentage may become smaller, are we actually expecting it to shrink in size? I know the idea is that we want to be able to draw on as much of our population as possible, resistance to military service by new immigrants and their children has been mentioned.  Will this not become less of an issue each generation the longer that they have been in Canada?


----------



## mariomike (3 Jun 2021)

FSTO said:


> I wasn't flinging shade at you.


Thank-you. I didn't make the world. I barely live in it.


----------



## dimsum (3 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> Will this not become less of an issue each generation the longer that they have been in Canada?


I can't find the article, but it's been mentioned that by the 3rd generation (if you're counting 1st as the ones who emigrated from their home country), this sort of thing usually evens out.


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## mariomike (3 Jun 2021)

Nice to be able to pick and choose employment. But, during hard times, Civil Service jobs provide the only secure means of making a living. Same could be said of the military.

Whatever ones ethnicity, the economy effects us all.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Jun 2021)

The CAF can't compete with medical school, which is what alot of immigrants want for their kids and why they come here. If we want more immigrants in the CAF we might consider making it a good choice as a path to citizenship, like in the US military:


A profile of the Canadian Forces​
A very small proportion of CF personnel were members of visible minorities—only 6% of all CF members (5% of regular forces and 11% of reservists) were visible minorities compared with 17% of the civilian working population. This is much lower than the U.S. military’s rate of 33% (Office of the Under Secretary of Defense, Personnel and Readiness 2006). Only 3% of officers in the regular forces were members of visible minorities.

Similarly, a very small portion were immigrants (6% compared with 21%). The low rates of visible minority and immigrant members may be related to the citizenship requirement for joining the CF. Currently, only Canadian citizens can join the regular forces (DND 2008e).10

However, even after excluding recent immigrants (in Canada less than 10 years) and adjusting for age, significant differences in visible minority and immigrant representation remain between the CF and the civilian working population (data not shown). The under-representation of visible minorities in the CF can be explained by many factors (Jung 2007): the importance of education, family, and ethnic identity;11 a relatively low ranking of military service as a career, combined with the negative image provided by their own native militaries; and insufficient numbers in senior ranks to provide the necessary positive role models. However, visible minority representation in the CF is important because they are the fastest growing segment of the Canadian population, particularly in the traditional recruitment target age group of 17 to 24 (Rueben 2004).






						Perspectives on Labour and Income: A profile of the Canadian Forces
					






					www150.statcan.gc.ca


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## mariomike (3 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> If we want more immigrants in the CAF we might consider making it a good choice as a path to citizenship, like in the US military:
> 
> 
> ​


And if that doesn't do the trick, they can go back to the way things were until 1973: The Draft.

Even now, they have the Selective Service System. 








						Selective Service System - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




If Uncle Sam wants you, he's gonna get you. Same way the Army got Elvis.


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## daftandbarmy (3 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> And if that doesn't do the trick, they can go back to the way things were until 1973: The Draft.
> 
> Even now, they have the Selective Service System.
> 
> ...



They don't need the draft to ensure integration of diverse groups into the military, they're smarter than that now  

I know a guy who was a tank commander, a Lt, in the USMC. He nicknamed his tank the 'United Nations' because he was the only white guy (from New York) in the vehicle. All the others were from Costa Rica, Honduras etc, all working to get their citizenship. 

He said that, without exception, they were all excellent troops.


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## mariomike (3 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> They don't need the draft to ensure integration of diverse groups into the military, < snip >


I just know what I read in the papers. 









						Selective Service System website crashes amid questions and fears of another US military draft
					

The agency tweeted Friday that its website was experiencing high volumes of traffic.




					www.cnn.com
				












						The Selective Service’s website crashed and not because people are rushing to enlist
					

The killing of an Iranian commander has drummed up fear of a draft—however improbable.




					www.motherjones.com


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## dimsum (3 Jun 2021)

mariomike said:


> I just know what I read in the papers. As recently as last year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those sorts of articles come up whenever the US looks like it'll get into another conflict.


----------



## dimsum (3 Jun 2021)

It doesn't help with stuff like this...


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## Brad Sallows (3 Jun 2021)

> If we can run Class A regiments from Vancouver/Lower Mainland, why not Reg Force?



Res F members can freely move and (if one exists) transfer to another unit if they have trouble finding work and accommodation in any particular location.  Commuting long distances (between workplace and wherever one can afford to live) one evening a week and occasional Saturdays/weekends is not quantitatively the same as commuting every working day.


----------



## Jarnhamar (3 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> It doesn't help with stuff like this...
> 
> View attachment 65349




About as tone-deaf as telling a woman "at least you know you can have kids" after she has a miscarriage.

Great job airforce.


----------



## ModlrMike (4 Jun 2021)

Seriously?  🤦‍♂️


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> It doesn't help with stuff like this...
> 
> View attachment 65349



Blame it on COVID-22 ....


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## CBH99 (4 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> It doesn't help with stuff like this...
> 
> View attachment 65349


Okay, sorry to be 'that guy' with this....  but I've been out for a while now, and thankfully never had to deal with any of this stuff.  Can someone break this down real quick for me?


----------



## CBH99 (4 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> The CAF can't compete with medical school, which is what alot of immigrants want for their kids and why they come here. If we want more immigrants in the CAF we might consider making it a good choice as a path to citizenship, like in the US military:
> 
> 
> A profile of the Canadian Forces​
> ...


Using military service as a path to citizenship is a solid idea.  If someone wants to speed up the path to receiving their citizenship, a form of national service is a great way to earn it.  It also gives them a solid salary during a time when they may be trying to get a solid footing under them.

I would say it's something to look into.   


As for the stats, I can't argue with them.  Obviously StatsCan knows it's stats better than I do (which is nadda.)  But I served with several people from a variety of ethnic backgrounds when I was in, and I tended to gravitate towards smaller units.  The "Only 3%" of officers being a visible minority seems low...  not sure if it's just my experience when I was in, but it seemed more diversified than that.  (Albeit Caucasian & male were clearly the dominant demographic.


----------



## dangerboy (4 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Okay, sorry to be 'that guy' with this....  but I've been out for a while now, and thankfully never had to deal with any of this stuff.  Can someone break this down real quick for me?


Right now we are in posting season so military pers that are posted to a new location are looking for a place to live. In some of the locations the housing market is very expensive so people are having a hard time finding a place. Military Pers Command posted what I guess they thought were helpful suggestions, which were:

Rent - In some places the cost of a rental place is also very expensive or there are not a lot of vacancies;

Rent now buy later - As per above;

Apply for an RHU (Residential Housing Unit) new term for PMQ - The issue is some locations don't have a lot of RHUs and you go on a waiting list and you might not get one in time for your posting; and

Proceed unaccompanied - Meaning your family stays where you are and you rent a single room by yourself in the new locations. Being separated from the family can cause a lot of stress in the family especially if it is a long distance, and the member can't easily drive back to see the family on weekends.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Using military service as a path to citizenship is a solid idea.  If someone wants to speed up the path to receiving their citizenship, a form of national service is a great way to earn it.  It also gives them a solid salary during a time when they may be trying to get a solid footing under them.
> 
> I would say it's something to look into.
> 
> ...



My span of experience in the CAF is fairly narrow but I've only met a small handful of Officers/ other ranks that were not the atypical white male. The current MND is one of them. 

His unit, the BCRs, are the only ones I've seen (out west anyways) who seem to be able to attract, retain and promote South Asian (or any other communities of colour) members on a regular basis. Others 'fluke out' from time to time, like the Westies who have recently had an excellent guy take over as CO who is from an Asian background. But it's usually just that: a fluke.

In general, our culture might be described as being really good at producing high quality soldiers who trend towards lower quality in other aspects of human behaviour e.g., being racist, misogynist, homophobic, socio-pathic/ bullying b*stards, whether conscious or unconsciously. 

Anyone who is a female, a person of colour, or gay, who sticks it out for more than a handful of years in this environment, should be awarded a medal IMHO. Seriously, someone should figure out how to do that. 

Add some incentive pay while you're at it.


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## CBH99 (4 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> My span of experience in the CAF is fairly narrow but I've only met a small handful of Officers/ other ranks that were not the atypical white male. The current MND is one of them.
> 
> His unit, the BCRs, are the only ones I've seen (out west anyways) who seem to be able to attract, retain and promote South Asian (or any other communities of colour) members on a regular basis. Others 'fluke out' from time to time, like the Westies who have recently had an excellent guy take over as CO who is from an Asian background. But it's usually just that: a fluke.
> 
> ...


 I don't disagree with you!!


What would we call this medal though??


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## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> I don't disagree with you!!
> 
> 
> What would we call this medal though??



Using my GBA+ skills, mainly gleaned outside of a superficial and mandatroy online test I had to take once, I'd suggest that we ask these communities what they think


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## CBH99 (4 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Using my GBA+ skills, mainly gleaned outside of a superficial and mandatroy online test I had to take once, I'd suggest that we ask these communities what they think


💡


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## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2021)

dangerboy said:


> Right now we are in posting season so military pers that are posted to a new location are looking for a place to live. In some of the locations the housing market is very expensive so people are having a hard time finding a place. Military Pers Command posted what I guess they thought were helpful suggestions, which were:
> 
> Rent - In some places the cost of a rental place is also very expensive or there are not a lot of vacancies;
> 
> ...



Sounds like the CAF needs to get into the Air BnB business


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## dapaterson (4 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Using my GBA+ skills, mainly gleaned outside of a superficial and mandatroy online test I had to take once, I'd suggest that we ask these communities what they think


The Putting Up with Stupid Shit Everywhere Recognition medal, or PUSSER for short.


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## dimsum (4 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Anyone who is a female, a person of colour, or gay, who sticks it out for more than a handful of years in this environment, should be awarded a medal IMHO. Seriously, someone should figure out how to do that.


CD with BS bar.


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## dimsum (4 Jun 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Great job airforce.


To be fair, they reposted something from MPC.


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## Kilted (4 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> I don't disagree with you!!
> 
> 
> What would we call this medal though??


I think that would have the opposite effect and would be one more thing to cause division between groups.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> To be fair, they reposted something from MPC.


Fair point (though the CAF has punished mbrs for reposting and liking posts on social media).

Maybe I was too harsh, I just find it really insulting to suggest leaving your family behind as a solution to sky high housing prices.


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## dimsum (4 Jun 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Maybe I was too harsh, I just find it really insulting to suggest leaving your family behind as a solution to sky high housing prices.


Oh you weren't.  I'm just saying that this post wasn't the RCAF's doing.


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## dangerboy (4 Jun 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Maybe I was too harsh, I just find it really insulting to suggest leaving your family behind as a solution to sky high housing prices.


It is very insulting and does not help with the retention problems the CAF is having,


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## dimsum (4 Jun 2021)

dangerboy said:


> It is very insulting and does not help with the retention problems the CAF is having,


And not surprisingly, I can't find it on their FB page now.   🤔


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## CBH99 (4 Jun 2021)

Kilted said:


> I think that would have the opposite effect and would be one more thing to cause division between groups.


Oh absolutely.  I wasn’t taking the “PUSSER” medal suggestion seriously...  pretty sure it was suggested in sarcasm 😉

Awarding people a medal simply for putting up with an in humane amount of nonsense wouldn’t help our recruiting efforts, no.


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## Old Sweat (4 Jun 2021)

Back in 1969, and I've posted this before, CF Training Command Headquarters (CFTCHQ) in Winnipeg owned all the schools, including the Combat Arms School in Borden and the School of Artillery in Shilo. The plan was that the following year these two schools would amalgamate in Gagetown as the Combat Arms School under Mobile Command. The whole 1970 CF realignment in Canada and Germany was going to be very expensive and there was much angst among the grownups. A pair of long permanent-in-rank staff officers in CFTCHQ - a major and a captain - came up with something called the Dependents Re-Alignment Programme, in which on posting, the computer would identify a set of dependents in the new location, and the member would be assigned them as family for the duration. The same thing would be done with his real family back in CFB Wherever. It was all bull roar, of course, but these two guys got bought lots of beer, and regaled many a mess gathering recounting how the initial reaction of most GOFOs on being briefed was overwhelmingly positive.


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## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Oh absolutely.  I wasn’t taking the “PUSSER” medal suggestion seriously...  pretty sure it was suggested in sarcasm 😉
> 
> Awarding people a medal simply for putting up with an in humane amount of nonsense wouldn’t help our recruiting efforts, no.



Moi? Sarcasm?


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## dimsum (4 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Moi? Sarcasm?


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## CBH99 (4 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Moi? Sarcasm?


Oh I got the sarcasm right off the bat, much appreciated  

I'm just wondering...was Kirkhill's comment meant as dry sarcasm?


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## daftandbarmy (4 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Oh I got the sarcasm right off the bat, much appreciated
> 
> I'm just wondering...was Kirkhill's comment meant as dry sarcasm?



Dry sarcasm? That would be, like, the hydrogen bomb of sarcasm.

I'll have to get studying


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## SupersonicMax (4 Jun 2021)

I think it’s time MPC, along with L1s look hard at which position can be worked from remotely.  This would alleviate a lot of the issues wrt housing if people could stay put instead of moving.  It is too bad... I expected them to do that exercise within the last year to implement this APS.  Instead, it’s a case-by-case basis approved by L1s....


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## dimsum (4 Jun 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I think it’s time MPC, along with L1s look hard at which position can be worked from remotely.


I would be surprised if most of the staff positions in our organization can't be done remotely.  Go into base for CSNI if necessary.


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Jun 2021)

dimsum said:


> I would be surprised if most of the staff positions in our organization can't be done remotely.



Maybe that should read . . .  would be surprised if a lot of the staff positions in our organization can't be eliminated.


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## SeaKingTacco (4 Jun 2021)

Blackadder1916 said:


> Maybe that should read . . .  would be surprised if a lot of the staff positions in our organization can't be eliminated.


You, good sir, win the internet!


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