# Ideal CF Size?



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Albert King <aking@mb.sympatico.ca>* on *Thu, 22 Jun 2000 20:55:05  0000*
Currently the Cf has about 60,000 people in uniform, that‘s way down from
about 78,000 just a few years ago. What would be a good size for the CF? I
think to do an effective job we would need around 250,00 reg. force and maybe
350,000 reserves. Whether that‘s a reasonable goal I don‘t know.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Thu, 22 Jun 2000 23:33:06 -0400*
At 08:55 PM 6/22/00  0000, Albert King wrote:
>Currently the Cf has about 60,000 people in uniform, that‘s way down from
>about 78,000 just a few years ago. What would be a good size for the CF? I
>think to do an effective job we would need around 250,00 reg. force and maybe
>350,000 reserves. Whether that‘s a reasonable goal I don‘t know.
>
The CF currently has under 55,000 Regukar Force personnel, well under the
60,000 ceiling. And I hear that recruiting targets have fallen short in
recent years, so that we may suffer more attrition before things get better.
That aside, I wonder how you decided that 250,000 plus 350,000 would be
reasonable. What missions do you foresee, what is the ‘threat‘ we need to
be prepared to meet?
What breakdown would you give to the Army, Navy, and Air Force?
What primary roles would each service have, and what manpower would you
apply to each?
What principal equipment would each service have? More of the same, or new
significant additions? And to meet what mission tasks? For example, a
carrier battle group would look very impressive in Halifax Harbour, but
what force projection does Canada do? The last operational use of Canada‘s
aircraft carriers, the ‘Maggie‘ and the ‘Bonnie‘ were to deploy UN mission
equipment and troops, cheaper by hired RO-RO and aircraft now.
If we focus on the Army for a minute, would you propose a proportionate
increase of existing roles and units allocations? If not, what restructure
would you apply to the Regular Force? How about to the Reserve Force?
What generic line of reasoning would you see the government using to
explain such a force strength to the average Canadian?
How would you justify the expenditure? Would you raise taxes, or reduce
spending elsewhere, if so, where?
It‘s all simple enough to throw generic force strength number around, but
it starts to get complicated when you have to base it in the real world. If
a concerned party were to propose a significant force strength increase to
the MND, thse are a few of the questions they would be expected to cover.
Albert, I don‘t mean to seem to be on the assault, I just thought that we
needed a broader base on which to discuss viable/necessary force levels.
Pro Patria
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:23:29 -0600*
This is always a great topic of discusion and, as always, Mike hits the
nail on the head.  A nations force structure is dictated by two main
themes.  First is the threat to the nation which can be explained as ...
no threat...no military, or conversely, large threat...large military. 
The second theme is the role the nation wants to play in the world. 
Does it want to be capable of policy read force - ecomomic, military,
etc, etc projection to areas other then its own?  
Canada does not have a threat.  Hence we have a small military.  As I
have mentioned before, the major threat to Canada is the United
States...how do you defend your soveignty against a super power?  Lord
knows Ms Copps has been wrestling with that question for years.
Canada wants to use "soft power" to help nations in need and only a
small part of this is in the form of the "boy scouts".  The RCMP, CIDA,
NGOs, etc are all part of the Governments policy of using federal and
NGOs to nation build as we‘re doing in Bosnia vice, the traditional
forms of peacekeeping and peacemaking.
Canadians are generally supportive of a military, however, we have been
extremely fortunate to have lived in a land of peace and stability. 
Hence, there are no political will to spend alot of money on a very
expensive military.  I can‘t necessary fault that.  
Cheers!
Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> 
> At 08:55 PM 6/22/00  0000, Albert King wrote:
> >Currently the Cf has about 60,000 people in uniform, that‘s way down from
> >about 78,000 just a few years ago. What would be a good size for the CF? I
> >think to do an effective job we would need around 250,00 reg. force and maybe
> >350,000 reserves. Whether that‘s a reasonable goal I don‘t know.
> >
> 
> The CF currently has under 55,000 Regukar Force personnel, well under the
> 60,000 ceiling. And I hear that recruiting targets have fallen short in
> recent years, so that we may suffer more attrition before things get better.
> 
> That aside, I wonder how you decided that 250,000 plus 350,000 would be
> reasonable. What missions do you foresee, what is the ‘threat‘ we need to
> be prepared to meet?
> 
> What breakdown would you give to the Army, Navy, and Air Force?
> What primary roles would each service have, and what manpower would you
> apply to each?
> What principal equipment would each service have? More of the same, or new
> significant additions? And to meet what mission tasks? For example, a
> carrier battle group would look very impressive in Halifax Harbour, but
> what force projection does Canada do? The last operational use of Canada‘s
> aircraft carriers, the ‘Maggie‘ and the ‘Bonnie‘ were to deploy UN mission
> equipment and troops, cheaper by hired RO-RO and aircraft now.
> 
> If we focus on the Army for a minute, would you propose a proportionate
> increase of existing roles and units allocations? If not, what restructure
> would you apply to the Regular Force? How about to the Reserve Force?
> 
> What generic line of reasoning would you see the government using to
> explain such a force strength to the average Canadian?
> How would you justify the expenditure? Would you raise taxes, or reduce
> spending elsewhere, if so, where?
> 
> It‘s all simple enough to throw generic force strength number around, but
> it starts to get complicated when you have to base it in the real world. If
> a concerned party were to propose a significant force strength increase to
> the MND, thse are a few of the questions they would be expected to cover.
> 
> Albert, I don‘t mean to seem to be on the assault, I just thought that we
> needed a broader base on which to discuss viable/necessary force levels.
> 
> Pro Patria
> 
> mike
> 
> Michael O‘Leary
> 
> Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> 
> The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
> Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
> new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:22:14 EDT*
Well, guys, you obviously all know what you‘re talking about. I do agree with 
the originator of the message, that we do need a stronger military, however, 
I don‘t think I could throw an accurate number out there.
    My question is this- In basically every major conflict around the world 
since the Boer War, Canada has played an instrumental role militarily. Now, 
Canadians of recent generations, during times of crisisWW1, WW2 
specifically Canadians from every walk of life have flocked to the 
recruiting centre to volounteer their service to our country. Now, do youand 
this is a general questin for the list believe that if another crisis should 
arise, Canadians would be as eager to help our country throught the military?
    If the answer is yes, then I think reg.force numbers aren‘t of such a 
worry to me, although I would like to see them strengthened. But if in 
another crisis Canadians aren‘t willing to pick up  arms in their country‘s 
name, then I think a much stronger reg. force and reserve force is needed.
    I think everyone would like to hear what you have to say.
                                                            -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Chris Redgrift" <buzzzfu@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:36:20 EDT*
JUNO WROTE:
>this is a general questin for the list believe that if another crisis 
>should
>arise, Canadians would be as eager to help our country throught the 
>military?
I have asked this question of myself and my friends in the past.  We all 
agreed YES, with a condition!  The condition being -- there would HAVE TO be 
a VERY REAL threat to Canada and our way of life.  We would not join up for 
a Gulf War or Vietnam.
Regard,
C. Redgrift
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Robert Childs" <adanac1@home.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:50:46 -0400*
Then you would not have joined up for Korea
Robert Childs    Airborne Rigger ret.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Redgrift" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: Ideal CF Size?
>
> JUNO WROTE:
> >this is a general questin for the list believe that if another crisis
> >should
> >arise, Canadians would be as eager to help our country throught the
> >military?
>
> I have asked this question of myself and my friends in the past.  We all
> agreed YES, with a condition!  The condition being -- there would HAVE TO
be
> a VERY REAL threat to Canada and our way of life.  We would not join up
for
> a Gulf War or Vietnam.
>
> Regard,
> C. Redgrift
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com 
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:32:27 -0400*
At 10:23 PM 6/22/00 -0600, Gunner wrote:
>Canada does not have a threat.  Hence we have a small military.  As I
>have mentioned before, the major threat to Canada is the United
>States...how do you defend your soveignty against a super power?  Lord
>knows Ms Copps has been wrestling with that question for years.
>
Keep in mine, however, that this is not essentially a military threat. More
the threat of being overwhelmed in economic and cultural senses. You cannot
defend in those arenas with a military force, no matter how strong.
Unless, of course your military-industrial machine is large enough to take
over the North American market, which isn‘t really achievable. Does the US
truly threaten our physical sense of sovereignty? I don‘t think so. I doubt
that any estimates were ever drafted at NDHQ on the forcible retaking of
Argentia, which was ‘occupied‘ by the US military from 1941 until 1997.
mike
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 10:52:31 -0600*
The US Threat to Canada
The main threat posed by the US is indeed a cultural and economic one. 
How do you fight US Culture if we‘re not sure what Canadian culture is? 
Ms Copps has been wrestling with this for awhile now and, of course,
spending millions of dollars on politically correct initiatives. 
Economically, we‘ve hitched our economy to the US through NAFTA and
we‘ve all benefited from the growth it has produced Jean Cretien and
Jane Stewart can‘t take the credit because of their jobs fund --- LOL!.
The threat to our sovereignty from the US is real.  This does not stem
from the military threat posed by Bill Clinton ordering the invasion of
Canada as a "wag the dog" to divert US attention to his dalliances. 
Rather the US threat comes from a US political agenda being pushed onto
the rest of the world and that will have indirect consequences on
Canada.  For example, the US takes over a country that produces oil and
the subsequent fallout is an increase in terrorist activity on North
American soil.  Let‘s be honest, Canada is seen as simple a "lessor
Great Satan" then the US is...we‘re all rich western countries that get
off on telling other countries how they should live their lives.
A second source of threat to our sovereignty is the repeated US
violation of our northern waters.  We have no way of patrolling it or
enforcing Canadian law.  What does it matter?  If the US doesn‘t
recognize our territorial sovereignty, why should any other country? 
What stops Russia from dumping nuclear waste in the Artic?  
No, there isn‘t a military threat from the US, however, there is a
threat to our sovereignty and how we can disassociate ourselves with US
Policy, at the same time trying to reap the economic rewards of the
close relationship we have enjoyed.
It is a political puzzle...too close a relationship vs a too distant
one.
Just my thoughts...
Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> 
> At 10:23 PM 6/22/00 -0600, Gunner wrote:
> >Canada does not have a threat.  Hence we have a small military.  As I
> >have mentioned before, the major threat to Canada is the United
> >States...how do you defend your soveignty against a super power?  Lord
> >knows Ms Copps has been wrestling with that question for years.
> >
> 
> Keep in mine, however, that this is not essentially a military threat. More
> the threat of being overwhelmed in economic and cultural senses. You cannot
> defend in those arenas with a military force, no matter how strong.
> Unless, of course your military-industrial machine is large enough to take
> over the North American market, which isn‘t really achievable. Does the US
> truly threaten our physical sense of sovereignty? I don‘t think so. I doubt
> that any estimates were ever drafted at NDHQ on the forcible retaking of
> Argentia, which was ‘occupied‘ by the US military from 1941 until 1997.
> 
> mike
> 
> Michael O‘Leary
> 
> Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
>  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> 
> The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
> Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
> new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Chris Redgrift" <buzzzfu@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 13:21:34 EDT*
You know Robert, I probably wouldn‘t have.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Robert Childs" <adanac1@home.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:14:50 -0400*
Then never think about joining the Canadian Forces 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Redgrift" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Ideal CF Size?
> You know Robert, I probably wouldn‘t have.
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at  http://www.hotmail.com 
> 
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:31:52 -0700*
I do believe there is a military threat from the USA.  It may not be on
everyones top ten list, but they do have plans for us.  Do you think they
would allow the chaos that would follow Quebec‘s separation, to remain for
long..  Chaos on their longest border would be a direct threat to them.
They have a long history of using their military to advance thier political
and economic goals.
This doesn‘t mean that I think we should try to protect ourselves from them,
it would be impossible.
It doesn‘t mean I am anti-Yank either, I am just pro-Canadian, and would
hate to see our way of life be totally wiped out because of political
indifference.
I do believe we have a unique Canadian identity, I just don‘t feel the need
to force it down the throats of the rest of the world.
If you don‘t know what a Canadian is, that says more about you, than it does
Canada.  No amount of Politicians will ever be able to define what a
Canadian is.  They owe their true allegiencesp? to their political party,
not to Canada.  That is the biggest shame of all.........
Chimo
----- Original Message -----
From: Gunner 
>
> No, there isn‘t a military threat from the US, however, there is a
> threat to our sovereignty and how we can disassociate ourselves with US
> Policy, at the same time trying to reap the economic rewards of the
> close relationship we have enjoyed.
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:57:14 EDT*
Well, I‘m not too sure what to say about the french email we‘ve been getting, 
as it doesn‘t make sense to me. I do however, have something to say about the 
US Threat mail...
Chimo, I agree with you about most of what you said about American ways of 
attaining goals and desired ends, and I do think that they have something in 
store for us. I don‘t know what or when it‘ll be, but I think something‘s up. 
Now, I in your mail, Chimo, you said you don‘t think it would be a good idea 
to try to stop them if something did happen, because it would be "impossible"   
Indeed, I agree that it would be impossible, atleast without devine 
intervention. I do believe, though, that there wouldn‘t be much of a country 
left to take over it the Americans indeed did attempt tomilitarily as 
there‘d be very few of us left because we‘d have all been killed while 
resisting.
    This may sound a little nuts, but I‘m not worried about the Americans 
trying to take us over, because either it‘ll never happen or I‘ll be dead 
long before they give us any lessons on American history.
                                -Matt
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:09:50 -0600*
The last KNOWN contingency plan to counter a potential U.S. invasion of
Canada was prepared in the 1920s by a Col. Buster Brown. He invisioned
that we‘d have an army about the size of the then recently disbanded
C.E.F. of WW1, with divisions making preemptory strikes into North
Dakota/Minnesota and on an on. A great pipe dream. He even made a few
undercover trips to the U.S. border areas and swanned-about gathering
information. Where was our army to come from? Well, we would quickly
mobilize what today would be called our PRes then know as the NPAM a
paper army at best.
The whole idea was ludicrous. Then and now. At least then we had the
possible protection from the Brits likely not then to be counted on for
any real physical aid. Now it‘s
the elephant versus the mouse. 
Sleep tight, the U.S. doesn‘t NEED to invade us. They have everything
they need and if they want our water too they will get it. In exchange,
we‘ll get all the RC Cola we can drink at fair market prices. They don‘t
even have need for "fifth columnists" since Hollywood does the job for
them so well. Sneer, sneer, sneer....
Michael O‘Leary wrote: snip
>. I doubt
> that any estimates were ever drafted at NDHQ on the forcible retaking of
> Argentia, which was ‘occupied‘ by the US military from 1941 until 1997.
> 
> mike
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:21:58 -0600*
Ian Edwards sez:
At the risk of/ pleasure from repeating myself:
We attempted to disassociate ourselves from US policy by joining NATO
and making
a contribution proportionate to our GNP as a balance to following one
star metaphor intended. That was early 1950s. Since then our
contribution has slipped and slipped and slipped. Now we have only the
free umbrella of the country to the South. I just got back from the
Spokane area where I had discussions over coffee, not beerwith several
Yanks at different times. All were recent ex-Army and all were quite
aware of Canada‘s lack of "contribution". 
Gunner wrote:
> 
> The US Threat to Canada
> 
> big snip
> No, there isn‘t a military threat from the US, however, there is a
> threat to our sovereignty and how we can disassociate ourselves with US
> Policy, at the same time trying to reap the economic rewards of the
> close relationship we have enjoyed.
> 
> It is a political puzzle...too close a relationship vs a too distant
> one.
> 
> Just my thoughts...
> 
> Michael O‘Leary wrote:
> >
> > At 10:23 PM 6/22/00 -0600, Gunner wrote:
> > >Canada does not have a threat.  Hence we have a small military.  As I
> > >have mentioned before, the major threat to Canada is the United
> > >States...how do you defend your soveignty against a super power?  Lord
> > >knows Ms Copps has been wrestling with that question for years.
> > >
> >
> > Keep in mine, however, that this is not essentially a military threat. More
> > the threat of being overwhelmed in economic and cultural senses. You cannot
> > defend in those arenas with a military force, no matter how strong.
> > Unless, of course your military-industrial machine is large enough to take
> > over the North American market, which isn‘t really achievable. Does the US
> > truly threaten our physical sense of sovereignty? I don‘t think so. I doubt
> > that any estimates were ever drafted at NDHQ on the forcible retaking of
> > Argentia, which was ‘occupied‘ by the US military from 1941 until 1997.
> >
> > mike
> >
> > Michael O‘Leary
> >
> > Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
> >  http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm 
> >
> > The address moleary@bmts.com will cease to be effective on 27 Jun 2000.
> > Return e-mails should be directed to student155@hotmail.com until I have a
> > new ‘permanent‘ address. - MMO
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *DHall058@aol.com* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:11:09 EDT*
Well, though as a Yank army officer I would have gone to Korea, Vietnam, and 
the Gulf, I wouldn‘t have gone to Canada except of course if we were invited 
to assist in your defense!.  Since I‘ve been out for a few years, I‘m 
obviously out of the loop when it comes to strategic plans...but I would be 
interested in any literature that asserts that we would ever invade make 
that attempt to invade Canada. If my history recollection is accurate, our 
last attempt didn‘t go very well either!
On the other hand, we could really use a great resort are like Whisler... 
just kidding!
Dave Hall
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:53:57 -0700*
It‘s actually all about the Beer
While we do gat invaded regularily by our southern neighbours, they do come
bearing US dollars.
Besides, the way our gov. taxes us, we‘re all going to move south, then
Canada will be one great big parking lot for the malls in Edmonton and
Minnesota!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2000 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: US Threat
> Well, though as a Yank army officer I would have gone to Korea, Vietnam,
and
> the Gulf, I wouldn‘t have gone to Canada except of course if we were
invited
> to assist in your defense!.  Since I‘ve been out for a few years, I‘m
> obviously out of the loop when it comes to strategic plans...but I would
be
> interested in any literature that asserts that we would ever invade make
> that attempt to invade Canada. If my history recollection is accurate,
our
> last attempt didn‘t go very well either!
> On the other hand, we could really use a great resort are like Whisler...
> just kidding!
> Dave Hall
> --------------------------------------------------------
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----------



## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:30:22 EDT*
What the @$!  Someone want to forward that to the RCMP just in case.  Or 
maybe CSIS.  Just a thought.
>From: "Todd Harris" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: "‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘" 
>Subject: RE: Near War
>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:35:54 -0400
>
>List,
>
>Here is the English translation as given to me by Bable Fish  Very
>strange.  I hope he meant this for a different list:
>
>Hello... la life and time that it remains us, I send my own predictions of
>the current moment to you... While the Quebecers are on the point of having
>fun the festival between the St-Jean Baptiste and the Festival of
>Canada.....d‘ others are on the point of taking to us by bacteriological
>surprise... While our attention is to be solved ffondrement bridge of
>Laval, that the Ontariens Lakes are contaminated quietly, that we seek from
>which comes the contaminated chopped steak we let us not pourtons points
>attention at the Ground-NeuveLabrador coasts and St-John‘ S.... Here, in
>Canada, we are windy ourselves of the greatest Richness in the World... the
>eau..cette so pure and vital water. Jealousy and desire we will expose to
>serieux problems. Today year 2000, we are not safe from the unconsciousness
>of the insane man and ignoramuses. Both larger religious power are
>Christianity and the Moslems. Since always the wars nourish themselves 
>some.
>Elsewhere... they have also libraries and books... ils read also
>notstradamus and will be afraid of perdres their convictions.
>Unconsciousness and ignorance will make them murderers. They will start 
>with
>Quebec while seeking supposment to conceal the words of Sauveur so much
>awaited...... the truth does not want to also say Christian!!! The Moslem
>women know and include/understand many things.....mais lie to their men
>because they are spoiled by gold and the money that pay to them jewels
>etc. its insane men of them.....Alors they veil the truth and has fun as
>the MUSE with our depend and enttent themselves like the mule with not
>advanced With the names of my children and all those of Quebec.....l‘ 
>future
>is between your hands and I request so that you can make the good decisions
>Claudine Sanschagrin alias Maryline Galarneau. all its men whom we love of 
>a
>sincere love, deep and infiniement large June 30ans 2000 at July
>
>
>Todd Harris
>
>  " Bonjour....la vie et le temps qu‘il nous reste,
>
>Je vous envoies mes propres prdictions de l‘instant actuel....
>Pendant que les Qubecois s‘apprtent  faire la fte entre la St-Jean
>Baptiste et la Fte du Canada.....d‘autres s‘apprtent  nous prendre par
>surprise bactriologique.... Pendant que notre attention est  solutionner
>l‘ffondrement du pont de Laval, que les Lacs Ontariens se contaminent
>tranquillement, que nous cherchons d‘o vient le steak hach contamin nous
>ne pourtons points attention aux ctes de Terre-NeuveLabrador and
>St-John‘s.... Ici, au Canada, nous nous ventons de la plus grande Richesse
>au Monde...l‘eau..cette eau si pure et vitale.  Jalousie et envie nous
>exposerons  de serieux problmes.   Aujourd‘hui an 2000, nous ne  sommes
>pas  l‘abris de l‘inconscience de l‘homme fou et ignorants. Les deux plus
>grandes puissance religieuse sont le christianisme et le musulmans. Depuis
>toujours les guerres s‘en nourrissent. Ailleurs...ils ont aussi des
>bibliothques et des livres....ils ont aussi lu notstradamus et auront peur
>de perdres leurs convictions. Inconscience et ignorance feront d‘eux des
>meurtriers.  Ils commenceront par le Qubec en cherchant  taire les mots 
>du
>supposment Sauveur tant attendu......la vrit ne veut pas aussi dire
>chrtienne!!!
>Les Musulmanes savent et comprennent beaucoup de choses.....mais mentent 
>leurs hommes car elles sont gtes par l‘or et l‘argent  que leur 
>rapportent
>bijoux etc. ses hommes fous d‘elles.....Alors elles voilent la vrit et
>s‘amuse comme la muse  nos dpends et s‘enttent comme la mule  ne point
>avanc......
>
>
>Aux noms de mes enfants et tous ceux du Qubec.....l‘avenir est entre vos
>mains et je prie pour que vous sachiez prendre les bonnes dcisions........
>
>
>Claudine Sanschagrin alias Maryline Galarneau.
>..... tous ses hommes que nous aimons d‘un amour sincre, profond et
>infiniement grand.......
>Juin 30ans 2000  Juillet  "
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@hotmail.com>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 23:38:25 EDT*
I don‘t think the Americans would physical get involded in a civil war over 
Quebec.  I believe it would cause to many "Vietnam" flash backs for the 
pentagon one of the reasons they didn‘t get involved with UNPROFOR.  As 
well to chose sides would cause problems within NATO.  The Brits hopefully 
would side with the Senior Dominion.  The Germans who don‘t like the 
Americans, would also probably support Canada.  This would cause a lot 
activity from the Red Army Faction or Baaden Manheimer Gang, USFOR EUROPE 
would suffer to much plus the Americans would look bad infront of the rest 
of the world.
>From: "dave" 
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: 
>Subject: Re: US Threat
>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:31:52 -0700
>
>I do believe there is a military threat from the USA.  It may not be on
>everyones top ten list, but they do have plans for us.  Do you think they
>would allow the chaos that would follow Quebec‘s separation, to remain for
>long..  Chaos on their longest border would be a direct threat to them.
>They have a long history of using their military to advance thier political
>and economic goals.
>This doesn‘t mean that I think we should try to protect ourselves from 
>them,
>it would be impossible.
>It doesn‘t mean I am anti-Yank either, I am just pro-Canadian, and would
>hate to see our way of life be totally wiped out because of political
>indifference.
>I do believe we have a unique Canadian identity, I just don‘t feel the need
>to force it down the throats of the rest of the world.
>If you don‘t know what a Canadian is, that says more about you, than it 
>does
>Canada.  No amount of Politicians will ever be able to define what a
>Canadian is.  They owe their true allegiencesp? to their political party,
>not to Canada.  That is the biggest shame of all.........
>Chimo
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Gunner 
>
> >
> > No, there isn‘t a military threat from the US, however, there is a
> > threat to our sovereignty and how we can disassociate ourselves with US
> > Policy, at the same time trying to reap the economic rewards of the
> > close relationship we have enjoyed.
> >
>
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bruce Williams" <Williabr@uregina.ca>* on *Fri, 23 Jun 2000 22:15:19 -0600*
It seems to me the USA are already dominating us economically and the border
sadly exists mostly as a job creation project for bureaucrats on both
sides.
Actually, it would be in the best interests of the USA to avoid hostilities.
What other country has so many citizens capable of infiltrating the USA to
conduct guerilla operations. Just have to remember not to say ‘eh‘.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Sat, 24 Jun 2000 08:55:07 -0700*
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Williams 
> Actually, it would be in the best interests of the USA to avoid
hostilities.
> What other country has so many citizens capable of infiltrating the USA to
> conduct guerilla operations. Just have to remember not to say ‘eh‘.
The handbook for Canadian Guerilla ops in USA
1 Remove touque, prior to crossing border.
2 Hide stash of Molson‘s empties.
3 Buy a big-***  gun, at first corner store.
4 Trade Blue Jays  jacket, for NY Yankees.
5............etc.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Sat, 24 Jun 2000 10:34:56 -0600*
You forgot not to ask directions to the nearest Tim Horton‘s!  RRRoll up
the RRim to Win!
dave wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Williams 
> 
> > Actually, it would be in the best interests of the USA to avoid
> hostilities.
> > What other country has so many citizens capable of infiltrating the USA to
> > conduct guerilla operations. Just have to remember not to say ‘eh‘.
> 
> The handbook for Canadian Guerilla ops in USA
> 
> 1 Remove touque, prior to crossing border.
> 2 Hide stash of Molson‘s empties.
> 3 Buy a big-***  gun, at first corner store.
> 4 Trade Blue Jays  jacket, for NY Yankees.
> 5............etc.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:11:15 -0600*
Study history. Start with the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny
as policies and find out if the policies of hemispheric domination
have ever been revoked either in word or in practice Grenada,
Nicaragua, the list goes on and on. Study the Fenian Raids, permitted
by the U.S. Goverenment turning a blind eye encouraging the Fenians to
raid Canada. Study the threat we had to invasion of what is now
Manitoba during the Columbia River dispute circa 1846 where we the HBC
had the Brits put a battalion of troops 6th Foot into Fort Gary to
guard against the invasion from the South.Would the Brits come again?.
Not bloody likely, mate.
Study the Yukon Gold rush in the closing years of the 1800s. There was a
minorsic border dispute and Canada put token troops in the Yukon to
handle the 30,000 mostly U.S. "invaders".
OK, 100 years ago or more. Plus ca change?
Due to inept Canadian governments, the U.S. gets what it wants without
an army of occupation let‘s not include the 19,000 troops that were
stationed north of Edmonton in WW2 for the "Alcan" Highway actually
built in large measure by contractors who are or have recently been
HCols of Western Canadian regiments, but that‘s another story.
Inept? An American company Imperial Esso OK, partly American found
oil near Leduc in 1947. Our Government then let U.S. oil giants finance
the large Alberta petrochemical infrastructure with money the U.S. firms
borrowed from Canadian banks on small margins.It wasn‘t U.S. money
pumped into Canada to complete the search for oil, petrochemical plant
erection, etc. downstream. It was "our" money and they have the equity!
A silent invasion.
Much of downtown Denver is today owned by Canadians, for example
Canadian money is found throughout the U.S. in large gobs, but in
relative terms spread thin. The U.S. will never need to invade us, they
have us by the balls already - we just don‘t vote for U.S. senators.
Seems we have even less "say" than Puerto Rico. But, oh, some of my best
friends are Yanks and I‘d rather be nestled up next to the U.S. of A.
than to Russia or China. It‘s just that the U.S. is an "evil" empire,
but less evil than the others and a natural consequence of their
economic and therefore military might.
DHall058@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Well, though as a Yank army officer I would have gone to Korea, Vietnam, and
> the Gulf, I wouldn‘t have gone to Canada except of course if we were invited
> to assist in your defense!.  Since I‘ve been out for a few years, I‘m
> obviously out of the loop when it comes to strategic plans...but I would be
> interested in any literature that asserts that we would ever invade make
> that attempt to invade Canada. If my history recollection is accurate, our
> last attempt didn‘t go very well either!
> On the other hand, we could really use a great resort are like Whisler...
> just kidding!
> Dave Hall
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *DHall058@aol.com* on *Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:05:48 EDT*
Fascinating...and I‘d forgotten about the "Pig War" in the San Juan Islands 
just before our Civil War.  It‘s hard to fault your deductive reasoning...so 
let‘s just hope that we don‘t do something that stupid. Of course, if we did 
try to launch a Fifth Column of our own, some of the rules for the agents 
might include:
*Leave the handguns at home, and don‘t leave the concealed pistol license in 
your wallet.
*Remember to end occasional sentences with "eh".
*Take a refresher course on metric conversion, or else get pulled over for 
doing 80 miles per hour.
*Don‘t exclaim with glee about the great exchange rate when buying just about 
everything but milk, and for gosh sake, don‘t make a big deal about being 
able to purchase Claritin antihistamine without a prescription.
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"dave" <dave.newcombe@home.com>* on *Sat, 24 Jun 2000 14:52:27 -0700*
More rules for US  agents.
a Remember to order Crown Royal, not Jack Daniels.
b no skidoos in summer.
c have fellow agent stand-by for CPR at first gasoline stop yes that is 65
cents for almost 1 quart
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Ian Edwards <iedwards@home.com>* on *Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:11:29 -0600*
Actually, there are only two seasons in C eh N eh D eh:
a winter: 10 months long 10 long months?
b road construction
If posted to the Prairies you must have graduated towards the bottom of
your class then remember to retort about the winter, "ah yes, but it‘s
a dry cold" that doesn‘t work near the Great Lakes, cold IS Cold
therein. And know that a block heater is to warm the engine block of
you car, not a firearm for self defence in a govenment built apartment
complex. If you live in British Columbia, then never give anyone the
suspicion that you were other than born in B.C. or be accused of
stealing their jobs and rally against your new municipal govenment from
owning any snow clearing equipment - snow doesn‘t officially exist in
Lotus Land. Oh, well, your U.S. agent‘s expense account won‘t allow you
enough to live in B.C. anyways where even fast food servers are
unionized.
I‘m reminded of the US Army DIs first words to his squad of reecruits:
"When ah yells ‘foam up‘ alla wanna see is a cloud a dust, a streak of
sh-at and you‘all foah deep ‘n standin tall!"
So, 
When coming North one must learn to never, never say you‘all or even
worse: y‘all.. Except in jest. But you knew that, at least.
Don‘t say how wonderful is CBC-TV programming. That‘s a dead giveaway
regardless of the political stripe you are posing. But it‘s OK to praise
CBC-Radio English only if you are posing as a liberal/Liberal.
It‘s OK to mangle the pronunciation of Jean Cretien‘s name, we all do it
badly ourselves even Jean Cretien can‘t pronounce his own name
properly, or string more than two words together without serious error.
And if you complain about Toronto, unless you reside in Toronto, then
you will ingratiate yourself with 90 of the Canadian population. If you
are posted to Big TO, then you must make references similar to "why we
have more people living in Trawna than they have in all the Prairie
provinces" Maritines, B.C.... combined, as soon as introduced to
visitors, especially if you are employed in the hospitality industry an
oxymoron in Toronto: "hospitality?", yeah, right!.
If you live in Manitoba or further west, then "the East" starts at the
Manitoba/Ontario border and the Quebec City/Windsor corridor is not
considered to be Central Canada regardless of where it really shows on a
Cana‘jun map. If you reside in Toronto, then "west" means towards London
Ontario, and Timmons is just beyond where the world drops off nowhere
beyond Huntsville really exists - just vague rumours.
Note I say "resides" in Toronto as I‘m from the West I believe no one
really "lives" in Toronto. Take the hate people from Montana feel for
Washington and Noo Yawk Siddy and multiply it threefold.
Learn quickly to whine and complain about both Canada and the U.S. and
you will never be suspected as an Amuric‘n.
dave wrote:
> 
> More rules for US  agents.
> a Remember to order Crown Royal, not Jack Daniels.
> b no skidoos in summer.
> c have fellow agent stand-by for CPR at first gasoline stop yes that is 65
> cents for almost 1 quart
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (21 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Gunner <randr1@home.com>* on *Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:10:02 -0600*
LOL,
However, I thought our seasons were:
a. preparing for winter
b. winter
c. recovering from winter
Cheers!
Ian Edwards wrote:
> 
> Actually, there are only two seasons in C eh N eh D eh:
> a winter: 10 months long 10 long months?
> b road construction
> 
> If posted to the Prairies you must have graduated towards the bottom of
> your class then remember to retort about the winter, "ah yes, but it‘s
> a dry cold" that doesn‘t work near the Great Lakes, cold IS Cold
> therein. And know that a block heater is to warm the engine block of
> you car, not a firearm for self defence in a govenment built apartment
> complex. If you live in British Columbia, then never give anyone the
> suspicion that you were other than born in B.C. or be accused of
> stealing their jobs and rally against your new municipal govenment from
> owning any snow clearing equipment - snow doesn‘t officially exist in
> Lotus Land. Oh, well, your U.S. agent‘s expense account won‘t allow you
> enough to live in B.C. anyways where even fast food servers are
> unionized.
> 
> I‘m reminded of the US Army DIs first words to his squad of reecruits:
> 
> "When ah yells ‘foam up‘ alla wanna see is a cloud a dust, a streak of
> sh-at and you‘all foah deep ‘n standin tall!"
> So,
> When coming North one must learn to never, never say you‘all or even
> worse: y‘all.. Except in jest. But you knew that, at least.
> 
> Don‘t say how wonderful is CBC-TV programming. That‘s a dead giveaway
> regardless of the political stripe you are posing. But it‘s OK to praise
> CBC-Radio English only if you are posing as a liberal/Liberal.
> 
> It‘s OK to mangle the pronunciation of Jean Cretien‘s name, we all do it
> badly ourselves even Jean Cretien can‘t pronounce his own name
> properly, or string more than two words together without serious error.
> 
> And if you complain about Toronto, unless you reside in Toronto, then
> you will ingratiate yourself with 90 of the Canadian population. If you
> are posted to Big TO, then you must make references similar to "why we
> have more people living in Trawna than they have in all the Prairie
> provinces" Maritines, B.C.... combined, as soon as introduced to
> visitors, especially if you are employed in the hospitality industry an
> oxymoron in Toronto: "hospitality?", yeah, right!.
> 
> If you live in Manitoba or further west, then "the East" starts at the
> Manitoba/Ontario border and the Quebec City/Windsor corridor is not
> considered to be Central Canada regardless of where it really shows on a
> Cana‘jun map. If you reside in Toronto, then "west" means towards London
> Ontario, and Timmons is just beyond where the world drops off nowhere
> beyond Huntsville really exists - just vague rumours.
> 
> Note I say "resides" in Toronto as I‘m from the West I believe no one
> really "lives" in Toronto. Take the hate people from Montana feel for
> Washington and Noo Yawk Siddy and multiply it threefold.
> 
> Learn quickly to whine and complain about both Canada and the U.S. and
> you will never be suspected as an Amuric‘n.
> 
> dave wrote:
> >
> > More rules for US  agents.
> > a Remember to order Crown Royal, not Jack Daniels.
> > b no skidoos in summer.
> > c have fellow agent stand-by for CPR at first gasoline stop yes that is 65
> > cents for almost 1 quart
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> > message body.
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