# Dealing with power tripping staff member.



## Deleted member 30710 (9 Jan 2010)

I have someone above me, who hasn't quite broken in their leaf yet. 

I'm trying to finish my course in one piece. I'm doing fairly well. But it seems my studies take a hit once in a while because this staff member decides to have a power trip. Several people taking this course are suffering academically because they are too busy trying to avoid setting this person off, preventing them from focusing on their studies.

This staff member will make up rules on the spot and punish people for breaking these rules. Meanwhile we were told by every other staff member at the school we were allowed to do these things. When told we are in fact allowed to do these certain things, they say "I just told you now, and you should have known better."

This member punished a group of people for doing something that every other staff member would have rewarded us for good initiative. (A whole course was given red chits for going on a group run).

One person actually came forward and said something to someone higher up, and this particular staff member decided to tell a course what happened, in not so nice biased terms from their perspective, while still under investigation. 

How do I survive this? If I choose to go higher up over this person, how do I go about doing it without having to go directly through them? As going to anyone other than them for anything sets them off. 

We have Cpls taking this course who've been longer than this staff member, they've never seen anyone treat their troops this poorly before.


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## armyvern (9 Jan 2010)

If, as you said below, there is an investigation into this matter ... then why are you talking about it here?  That may not be what you meant, but it's what I'm getting from your post. ??


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Jan 2010)

If I can add something quickly...be careful what you post here.   Sometimes we don't fill in our profiles but there is a trail of breadcrumbs others can follow.  If you aren't following me, PM me and I'll spell it out.

I'll echo what AV said and suggest caution on your part.


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## dangerboy (9 Jan 2010)

If you are facing extreme difficulties and don't know who to talk to, ie you can't or don't feel comfortable talking to your course staff you try the Command Standards Organization Representative.

Here is the website with the contact information and information about their role: http://armyapp.dnd.ca/38cbg_arsd/CBTIST/PosterCCSOR081eng.pdf


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## Brasidas (9 Jan 2010)

tovasshi said:
			
		

> I have someone above me, who hasn't quite broken in their leaf yet.
> 
> I'm trying to finish my course in one piece. I'm doing fairly well. But it seems my studies take a hit once in a while because this staff member decides to have a power trip. Several people taking this course are suffering academically because they are too busy trying to avoid setting this person off, preventing them from focusing on their studies.
> 
> ...



Document the incidents on paper, and ask your coursemates to do the same. Be detailed. Review your notes, and make updates to an overall description of the situation. Get other rational coursemates to review the material for confirmation. Find an outside party (not here), and discuss the situation. Chaplain? Figure out where you want to take it after you've got some solid documentation.


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Jan 2010)

How about something more low-key.  

1.  The instr in question is a MCpl.  MCpls work for Sgts.  

2.  There are Cpls on the course.  Maybe they should act like a decent Jnr NCO, and on behalf of the course, request to have the Sgt come in to listen to concerns from the crse.  The Sgt then has the ability to sort out the problem at the lowest level possible.

Now, I say that as a current Jnr NCO on course with Ptes and Cpls.  I used to be a higher rank in another life, and whether it was issues on course, FTXs, within the unit, you name it, if there was a problem with one of my MCpls, I wanted to know about it immediately, so I could deal with it immediately.  If it was something that warranted it, I would info my superior on what happened/actions taken so that THEY knew about it too.  If not, it was considered handled and was only a problem if it happened again.

*Lowest Level Possible*.  Time for the Cpls to earn their pay and grow some.  IMO, if they haven't tried to engage the CoC at this point, they are part of the problem as well (assuming it is as bad as indicated here, which isn't that hard to believe for the unit the OP is currently at).


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## Kat Stevens (9 Jan 2010)

Cpls don't step up because they're not allowed to be leaders anymore. Since about 95 ish there has been a distinct lack in respect for the rank of Cpl from both directions.  I was called "nothing but an overpaid Sapper"  by an officer when I tried to have a pretty serious pump of a Sapper dealt with.  I also got "who the f**k do you think you are?" from said no hook Sapper when I tried to talk to him.  If the CoC won't let Cpls be leaders, why even bother trying?


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## RHFC_piper (9 Jan 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Cpls don't step up because they're not allowed to be leaders anymore. Since about 95 ish there has been a distinct lack in respect for the rank of Cpl from both directions.  I was called "nothing but an overpaid Sapper"  by an officer when I tried to have a pretty serious pump of a Sapper dealt with.  I also got "who the f**k do you think you are?" from said no hook Sapper when I tried to talk to him.  If the CoC won't let Cpls be leaders, why even bother trying?



Yeah... seems to be the way of things.  I've always been told "Cpl is just a pay rank", told I have no leadership / instructor training, therefor have no responsibility / ability to lead / instruct... until there's no one else, then it's expected without question.... Kind of a double standard, but thus is life... Like it or lump it.
And, as sad as it seems, it appears as if MCpls are being pumped out of courses with the ability to teach but lacking leadership skills (or so it seems in the reserve world)... I have even been told that we (the CF) are looking for instructors, not leaders, from our MCpls (I don't buy it).

Either way, I agree with Eye in the Sky on this; try to solve it at the lowest level, but document everything and make sure everyone is on the same page.  
Honestly, reading the original post infuriates me as I've seen this a lot in my mil exp...  I understand your frustration.


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## armyvern (9 Jan 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> I also got "who the f**k do you think you are?" from said no hook Sapper _Pte_ when I tried to talk to him _, his sergeant, told him to pick up a broom and begin assisting his other peers with that weekly thing we call warehouse housekeeping in the supply world._



It was a confirmed case of someone not being able to cash with his ass the cheque that his mouth had just written.  8)


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## Fusaki (9 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 2.  There are Cpls on the course.  Maybe they should act like a decent Jnr NCO, and on behalf of the course, request to have the Sgt come in to listen to concerns from the crse.  The Sgt then has the ability to sort out the problem at the lowest level possible.
> 
> ...
> 
> *Lowest Level Possible*.  Time for the Cpls to earn their pay and grow some.  IMO, if they haven't tried to engage the CoC at this point, they are part of the problem as well (assuming it is as bad as indicated here, which isn't that hard to believe for the unit the OP is currently at).



I agree.

If CPLs are being treated as nothing more than overpaid Ptes/Sappers, it's their own fault as much as it is the CoC's.

If a Jr NCO (or any leader) is not willing to stick his neck out from time to time, he *will* be marginalized by more assertive personalities in his organization.  It's as much his fault for leaving a leadership vacuum as much as it's the fault of the CoC for filling it with someone else.

We, as Corporals, _are_ responsible.  If, in the next few years, we are weak MCPLs who have instructing skills but not leadership skills, it will be our own fault for not having stepped up by taking on the role EITSky described above.


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## Kat Stevens (9 Jan 2010)

You're joking, right?  Did you read what I said?  The CoC does not support Cpls who try to exercise any kind of authority.  How the Christ is it the individual's fault that he gets no backing from higher? The day of the Cpl having any authority whatsoever are long gone, and they ain't coming back 'til the grownups get behind them.


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## Jarnhamar (9 Jan 2010)

tovasshi said:
			
		

> I have someone above me, who hasn't quite broken in their leaf yet.



You're a private with one year under your belt and you feel your in a position to judge this kinda stuff?  Interesting.




> This staff member will make up rules on the spot and punish people for breaking these rules. Meanwhile we were told by every other staff member at the school we were allowed to do these things. When told we are in fact allowed to do these certain things, they say "I just told you now, and you should have known better."




This happens all the time in the army. (CF) Leaders making up rules on the spot. Big pet peeve of mine. If you're relatively sure that he is making something up call him on his bullshit.  Ask to be provided with a reference



> This member punished a group of people for doing something that every other staff member would have rewarded us for good initiative. (A whole course was given red chits for going on a group run).



Was he the marching NCO? Are students where you re allowed for going out in group runs? That's a formed body. Did you have maker vests? Different bases have different rules on the number of soldiers that are allowed running in a formed body unsupervised. Did the instructor get a blast of shit from someone because your group took the initiative and went to do PT?
Sounds dumb. My instructor got extra duties because the course was caught doing push ups in our rooms on our own time when their was some type of dumb rule against PT in your rooms.



> How do I survive this? If I choose to go higher up over this person, how do I go about doing it without having to go directly through them? As going to anyone other than them for anything sets them off.
> We have Cpls taking this course who've been longer than this staff member, they've never seen anyone treat their troops this poorly before.



The Cpls should step up. However they may be too new (thought you said they have more time in than the MCpl). They could be missing a backbone or just not give a shit.

If I was in your situation I would (alone or with some course mates) wait until I caught the MCpl alone and away from public view and say something to the tune of
"Obviously your the kind of old school tough guy that is upset he can't get away with hitting troops anymore so we wanted to get out of public sight and give you the chance to sort us out"
I'd make sure my (or our) tone and body language indicated that if he didn't smarten up he'd get the snot beat out of him.

He sounds like a bully who tries to substitute his experience and the respect it earns with authority and fear.

It may sound inappropriate but how I see it you' be doing yourself and your peers a favor, doing him a favor and doing his future students a favor.  It's easy for a young MCpl to get ahead of themselves and sometimes they need to be grounded. 
Somewhat different situation I had a MCpl overseas act like that when I was a cpl.  Constant threats of violence against troops. "I'm old school I'll take my shirt off bla bla". First time he tried it with me over a phone I ran 500 meters  over to him called him on it in front of other troops and threatened some unpleasant business. He backed down, apologized a couple hours later. He started treating the troops in the platoon with more respect and in turn they started respecting him more and now him and I are great friends.

That's my unofficial answer. 
Officially- level some harassment allegations against him and deal with it for the next few months/years.


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## armyvern (9 Jan 2010)

Wow, quite the amount of allegations and assumptions now being made in this thread based on what amounts to "just one side of a story".

The OP still hasn't answered the question:

If this matter is currently under investigation as your original post insinuates, then what the hell are you discussing here for? It is a BIG no-no to be discussing an on-going investigation.

What is it? ongoing, or was it investigated and found to be "unfounded" because (that's right) there is always two sides to a story --- the truth usually falling somewhere in between.


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## ballz (9 Jan 2010)

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> "Obviously your the kind of old school tough guy that is upset he can't get away with hitting troops anymore so we wanted to get out of public sight and give you the chance to sort us out"



That's bad ***  



Vern,

I think the OP was saying that this MCpl in question was discussing his own opinion on an ongoing investigation (not related to this post) to him and his coursemates.

EDIT: Scratch that, Vern, it's me that can't read.


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## Nfld Sapper (9 Jan 2010)

I would suggest  that everyone just wait until the OP comes back and answers Vern question(s).


MILNET.CA MENTOR


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## Eye In The Sky (9 Jan 2010)

WRT to specifics of the OPs situation, I agree.  Speculation at this point.

However, there are some interesting points in the discussion ongoing about the real-life issues about being a Cpl, and how certain people would handle it.

Flawed Design suggested that the OP, a Pte, sort the issue out on his own somehow.  I am surprised no one has replied to that one.  However, I will.

It is NOT a Pte's job to sort out anyone other than himself/herself and those in his/her peer group.  Full stop.  

I've taught on many a course, and I can tell you how I would react to a Pte, not even a Pte (T) yet, trying to sort me out back when I was a Jack.  They'd not like it, because I can quaruntee you that I WOULD take that incident up the CoC.  How does that saying go.....?

*2 wrongs don't make a right.*  

 :2c:


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## armyvern (9 Jan 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> WRT to specifics of the OPs situation, I agree.  Speculation at this point.
> 
> However, there are some interesting points in the discussion ongoing about the real-life issues about being a Cpl, and how certain people would handle it.
> 
> ...



Perhaps a thread split is in order ... perhaps on the topic of :

Are Corporals shown the respect they deserve by subordinates & superiors?

Either way, i'll echo your sentiments on anyone who wanted "to take me for a trip out back ..."

Bring it on; it won't be me who regrets your decision in the end.


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## Fishbone Jones (9 Jan 2010)

There is not enough detail from the OP to make this a worthwhile and educational thread. Let alone answer their question properly. If guidance is still required. they can PM a Mod and ask it to be reopened after proving they can frame the question to prevent speculation. 

This is starting to degrade into a bunch of people walking around with their thumbs under their armpits.

Locked

Milnet.ca Staff


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