# The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged



## MAJOR_Baker

So what is the deal with poppy sales in Canada?      I heard that some stores are banning the practice.  If true, I am not surprised that some people fail to remember CDN military sacrifices.


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## MikeM

First I have heard about any stores banning Poppy sales, the vetrans, and cadets like myself have been welcomed to sell them outside stores and in malls.


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## dano

Canada brings in about 200,000 immigrants a year.
Most of which have never lived in snow. So its obvious there knowlage on Canadian military war history and sacrifices is vague. Also meny of them own or start up small buisness‘s, similar to what its like here in Brampton, but beneth all that, they figure it comes down to bad buisness. Being an immigrant or not.


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## OLD SCHOOL

It is true.
Some store managers seem to forget(or perhaps they were never taught)the meaning behind the poppy.
The HOME DEPOT in Vancouver actually removed a frail old veteran last year from the front of the store. He raised **** to his credit. You would think that they would let him inside and buy him a coffee instead.
What the **** is wrong with people?
Apologies are lame and too late at that point.


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## Deleted member 585

Anyone has a right to refuse purchasing and respectfully wearing a poppy, but it‘s both a perversion and abuse of the intent behind the Charter of Rights & Freedoms for any corporate entity, while in service to the public, to inhibit such a long-standing, widely accepted activity.

Para 2, subpara (b) states (Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms):
"freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;"

**** anyone for marginalizing Canadian Vets and Remembrance Day.


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## kurokaze

Here‘s the story behind it:
 http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/11/05/poppies031105


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## Deleted member 585

Any info I could find on the web about this... seems to be confined to Québec.  Is this activity derived from the separatist undercurrent, or what?

P.S.  Thanks for the link kurokaze.


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## Deleted member 585

When I bought my first poppy this year, the Vet pinned it on my lapel.  I said, "It‘s an honour, sir."  I then shook his hand and thanked him.  I hoped I wouldn‘t be the last to do so.

I couldn‘t imagine behaving any differently.  One doesn‘t need to support warfare to acknowledge the great risks taken by past and present soldiers, sailors, and airmen.


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## Highland Lad

Here‘s the National Post‘s story from today‘s issue --  National Post - Veterans Fight Back Over Poppy Backlash 

It includes a link to Pier 1‘s web site and feedback telephone #.

I recently delivered a speech that asked people to use their poppies to help them to remember - try this on for size: on the afternoon of Nov 11, take your poppy to a cemetery and find a serviceman‘s headstone (They‘re easy to recognize) read the name, the dates, and any inscription. When you‘ve had a chance to think about that person and his story, pin your poppy to the turf at the base of the stone.

"If you love your freedom, thank a veteran."


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## dano

If you‘re at or near the Bramalea city center, after 6:00 on friday (7th of nov) poppys are being sold by cadets.


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## Coniar

People seem to think that by wearing a poppy they support war. They dont realise or understand the true meaning of the poppy. Half the population seems to suport it well the other half ignores or activley opposes  it. I cant belive they would remove a vetran from a home depot, I cant belive there even legally allowed to do that. I know I buy several poppys every year and I have stopped and talked to the vetrans selling them several times, I dont see how people so kind and patriotic could ever be bad for business. Sure shows wich dirsection the country is headed and has been headed for a long time        respect and awarness need to be taught. Vimy Ridge means nothing to most people I talk to, they havent even heard the name before...


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## Gunnar

Strictly speaking, they have a right to remove unlicensed vendors from their private property, so yes, it is legal.

It isn‘t right however.


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## fusilier955

hearing this makes me sick, in my school newspaper the editor was responsible on the editoral for rememberance day, however he failed to write one because he couldnt find a "hipper new spin" to put it in without the thought of old Vets coming to mind, so he went on to talk about how students dont vote enough.  in the last sentence he mentioned that people should wear poppies like they should vote.  it was pathetic.  there was one story that delt with it cramed by the sports section all about pretty much his last sentence.  what an ungrateful ****.


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## chriscalow

Last year when I was selling poppies for the legion with my cadet corps, I actually got spit on by one woman, who then began yelling at me for wearing a uniform and that it‘s because of people like me that there are wars in the world.  I calmly told her that because of the great people I‘m trying to support, those wars are not in her back yard and the poppy symbolizes thanks and that we do not forget how we have the oppritunity to live life as ungrateful as some of us (people)are.


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## gowest043

Just got off the phone with Pier 1 Imports and they now allow the sale at all outlets in Canada.  It just goes to show that the people still have the power to change.  Though it is shamefull that this was ever an issue in the first place.


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## Coniar

I talked to my Principal today and everyone will be getting a poppy and asked to donate money. I also asked her about the christmas decorations already being out up... This is another thing that bugs me and seems disrespectfull. I phoned and asked the manager at the local home depot and they do alow the sale of poppys on premises, of course theres a good chance hes just B.S.ing me... I hope one day soon Canada as a whole will take more pride in what we have done as a country and respect the sacrifices made for all of us by past generations.


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## meceboy

Althought I do think that it‘s absolutely sick that companies ban the sale of poppies, we have to remember they have the right not to sell poppies because of the guys who sell the poppies.

On the other hand, I have the right to not shop at Pier 1, and Home Depot or use National Bank because of the guys who sell poppies.


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## combat_medic

I sent an e-mail to Pier 1 yesterday complaining about them not selling poppies. Within 24 hours, I got a reply back saying that they were going to be making a large cash donation to the Royal Canadian Legion, and that they would start to allow the poppy boxes at their cash register. Apparently enough people complained that they changes their policies.

Nice to know that b|tching occasionally does work


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## HollywoodHitman

Just thought I'd pass on another classic example of patriotism in Canada today. Details are limited as the cops haven't caught this person yet.

There's a woman (no good description given) who has wandered into several stores which sell poppies for the Cdn Legion, and taken the money, claiming she was there to collect it. Finally someone had the common sense to ask her for ID and she booked out pretty quickly. I'm pretty sure I don't need to comment further except maybe to shout out to this person "Way to go!!! You're taking money from Veterans and their families!!! Hope you have a good sleep tonight."   :threat:


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## Scratch_043

totally dispicable, I can't believe anyone would sink so low


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## Goober

A thief ran into a Tim's here in halifax the other day and stole the collection box. I think they got about $200. Its a discusting act by people with no remorse.


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## Michael Dorosh

Goober said:
			
		

> A thief ran into a Tim's here in halifax the other day and stole the collection box. I think they got about $200. Its a discusting act by people with no remorse.



Maybe the idiots on the tax revolt site just need to find a way to make ends meet?


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## canuck101

Well the cops have a good picture of the thief in BC.  She tried the samething at a liquor store carrying a baby but the cashier stopped her from stealing the money.


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## GerryCan

Just for that they should force her to do tiime in the military. Or even better yet. Send her to club Ed as an 'honourary member' and get her to Polish shoe polish cans until she has had enough time to really think about what she has done.


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## elminister

It is what society as become sad to say. We no longer take pride(some of us) in the fact that these people risked their lives to save others.


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## Slim

I bet some a$$hole lawyer agrees to take her case for free when she's caught! After all its now fashionable to run the vets down here in Canada...Not the country I grew up in. Thats for sure!

Slim
 The way it used to be!


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## Alex252

I think they should send one of you guys to stand guard over the poppy funds, C7 and all. I bet you she wouldnt try it then.


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## Bic519

I agree that stealing money raised from the sale of poppies is disgusting, however I would argue the point that the actions of one person out of 35 milllion Canadians is a classic example of anything, much less the state of Canadian patriotism. It is entirely possible that her actions aren't even representative of those of her immediate family, much less her nation.

Some months ago, 19 members of the Van Doos failed drug testing, would you say then that they are they a classic example of their regiment? It is after all a much higher sampling than 1 in 35 million. I know that I wouldn't and I don't know of anyone who would. 

There have been numerous posts on this board about how the public perception of the military is tarnished by the actions of a few. Perhaps its time to give some thought as to how your perceptions of Canadians are likewise shaped by the actions of a few.


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## HollywoodHitman

There certainly were 20 or so VanDoos who were nabbed for drugs last year. I don't recall implying that this woman's familiy was in anyway associated with her actions. The point was that I am not too sure you'll see too many soldiers, who yes occasionally make mistakes like the rest of the general population, stealing money from the families of Veterans in the form of Poppy sales, which in addition to generating money, stand for something much greater than just you or me. 

I think it is a matter of patriotism. People know that soldiers have represented this country at war and at peace. Thats what the Poppy's represent. Whether they care or not is a different story. The sales of the Poppy pay for their production etc. and the remainder go to help the families of the Veterans, many of whom are barely making a living on their pensions. How could it not be a matter of patriotism? The Canadian soldier is as representative in the world as his flag is. The Canadian soldier wears the flag and defends it. As a patriotic Canadian, as a soldier and as a citizen of this country I'm appalled that someone would defend the actions of someone like this. Do you think it would be ok to steal the money from a UNICEF box on a 3rd Grade trick or treater? How about a firefighter holding the boot at Christmas for the Childrens Burn Fund? Stealing from them would be wrong, certainly, but even though they are worthy causes they do not represent the sacrifices made by individuals in the name of freedom or peace, nor do they serve to help the public   remember those sacrifices.   

I'd also argue that since the soldier is a reflection internationally of their country (not specifically Canada, but any country). Individuals, failing to support their soldiers are non-patriotic. A country that does not honour and take care of it's warriors regardless of the popularity of it's campaigns, is a shameful country indeed. You don't have to agree with what their missions are, you can hold the politicians, for whom soldiers are a tool, accountable for that, but the members of the military deserve your support. Case in point would be Americans. An unpopular war, yes. An overwhelming national support for their troops....Most definitely.

Simply put, someone who steals Poppy money is stealing money from   and dishonoring the Veterans that fought to protect this country and our way of life. Thats patriotism? Hmmm....... :threat:


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## cgyflames01

Where having the same problem in Calgary, last week 15 boxes were stolen from a large mall here. The box were I work was also lifted.  :-[


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## Tpr.Orange

Absolutley disgusting....

I cant believe someone would stup so low.


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## FastEddy

Bicque said:
			
		

> There have been numerous posts on this board about how the public perception of the military is tarnished by the actions of a few. Perhaps its time to give some thought as to how your perceptions of Canadians are likewise shaped by the actions of a few.



This remark seems to be loaded.

What I gather is, Service Men & Women, Veterans and Ex-Servicemen are accusing the General Public as a whole of  ( Disrespect, Indifference etc.) committed by only a few.

And their view of Canadian Patriotism as a whole is based on the acts of only a few (The Poppy Thieves).

I do not think its quite that simple (unless one is taking a defensive stance or is bias on the matter or other reasons).


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## bossi

FastEddy said:
			
		

> ... I do not think its quite that simple ...



Great discussion (but, aren't they all ... at Army.ca ... chuckle!)

Anyway - there are lots of examples of thieves and con artists stealing charitable donations - it's a regrettable trend, not limited to poppy sales.

However, the outrage at such news (both public and here at Army.ca) is an indication that Canadians (civvie or military) still view this type of crime as the lowest of the low (i.e. stealing from the poor, or veterans, is beneath contempt).
Unfortunately, the mood of the "silent majority" is often difficult to guage ... due to their silence - it's only when they erupt into demonstration of their feelings that we notice (e.g. the impromptu vigils that took place when our fallen comrades were repatriated, and ordinary Canadians lined highway overpasses to pay their respects).

It would be a different story if somebody were to say "Oh, it's okay - that charitable organisation isn't important".
That is NOT/NOT/NOT the case with the poppy funds.


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## Griswald DME

I caught something briefly on the news last night about the Coquitlam BC thief.  She phoned the Legion, all hysterical saying she did it but there were reasons.  The Legion rep. refused to say the reasons, and I give her (the rep) credit for not feeding the media.  The woman is a known panhandler so I'm certain the police know who she is, most likely its a matter of trying to track her down (if she's no fixed address).  So, at least in this one circumstance hopefully the thief has a conscience and learns from her wrong doings. 

I agree with the others, her sentence should be military time, or at the very least community work with the Legion so she is made aware of who she stole from.

Lets hope.


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## FastEddy

bossi said:
			
		

> It would be a different story if somebody were to say "Oh, it's okay - that charitable organisation isn't important".
> That is NOT/NOT/NOT the case with the poppy funds.



Now this quote I can accept (without rebuttal).


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## Bic519

From Hollywood Hitman

"The point was that *I am not too sure you'll see too many soldiers, * who yes occasionally make mistakes like the rest of the general population, *stealing money from the families of Veterans in the form of Poppy sales*, which in addition to generating money, stand for something much greater than just you or me. " (Bolding mine)

And my point is that you won't find too many civilians stealing from them either which is what you implied when you stated that her actions were a "classic example of patriotism in Canada today." On one hand, you have a single person stealing the money, on the other hand you have the large number of civilians who filled those boxes by buying poppies and yet you chose to present the thief as being representative of the Canadian public.

"I'm appalled that someone would defend the actions of someone like this. "

Who's defending her actions? 

"Simply put, someone who steals Poppy money is stealing money from   and dishonoring the Veterans that fought to protect this country and our way of life. Thats patriotism? Hmmm....... "

Who said it was patriotism?

From Fast Eddy
"This remark seems to be loaded."

I'm not sure exactly by what you mean by loaded but there have been a number of posts by CF members concerned that a particular story or event will make everyone in the Forces look guilty by association. Take a look in threads where the Somalia incident is mentioned or the thread where the Van Doos drug bust is discussed. (http://army.ca/forums/threads/16153.0.html) . I think that the transparency with which the matter was handled went a long way to maintaining the reputation of the regiment and Jungle's comments, as a senior NCO of the regiment, reinforced my opinion. The posts suggesting it should have been covered up were disturbing but definately in the minority. 

I understand the concern about how perspection can be shaped by the bad actions of a few (especially in an organization where conformity is encouraged.)I'd like to see that go both ways though. Many times (note, not always but quite often) if something about a civilian ticks off a CF member they then extend that to all civilians. Apparently we are   sheeple and lemmings because we all voted for Paul Martin, (despite the fact that he had a minority win in a four party system) We all define ourselves as Not American. We are all Anti American (especially those of us in Ontario) The majority of us call soldiers baby killers while we also can't accept that Canadian soldiers might actually kill people. We're all to busy enjoying our rights and freedoms to pay attention to our soldiers. We think everyone loves us. Canada is an incredibly diverse country for the size of our population, we're extremely regionalized, we use two official languages plus a plethora of others languages and yet when one of us is found to be lacking, we're like peas in a pod.

And Bossi, you're right on the mark!


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## Pieman

I agree with you all that the action of stealing poppy money is pretty rotten. 

But on the other side of the equation this kind of thing happens every single year. Someone goes into the stores and just walks off with the boxes, or worse, I recall a incident where an older veteran woman was collecting boxes and had them taken from her by a group of teens.

Oddly enough, every single year everyone acts surprised and cries: How could people be so rotten!!???

I think it is time people just accept the fact that there are a 'few rotten apples' (a.k.a. waste of skin) out there, and   always will be. Fasten the boxes down and have simple security checks to make sure the right person is picking up the box. Stores should escort the veteran who is collecting the boxes out of the store to make sure they get to their car safe. We do it in just about every other situation involving money, why not this one?

To a thief or someone desperate, money is money.


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## redleafjumper

Every year since I was a wee lad in cadets, I have volunteered some time to canvass for the Legion's poppy campaign in the two weeks leading up to Remembrance Day.  I have worn the uniform of an army cadet, CF greens, and now I wear my Legion garb.  I know most us will be wearing a poppy in the days leading up to November 11, some wear them much more than just those few days.  What are the rest of you doing to support the poppy campaign?  Funds from the poppy Campaign are used for:

1.  Assistance to ex-service personnel and their dependents.
2.  Low rental housing and care facilities for elderly or disabled persons and their dependents.
3.  Community medical research appliances and medical research
4.  Day care centres, meals-on-wheels, transprotation and related services.
5.  Cost of poppies, wreathes and supplies.

I hope that each of you will do what you can either by donating some time or money to the poppy campaign.  It is a good cause and one day it could be you that needs the help.


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## Springroll

My late grandfather was the director in charge of the poppy campaign when he was still alive, so I would help him alot over those few weeks with getting things organized. Since then, I haven't really done anything other than making my donation to the Poppy Campaign in his name since his passing. I also was in cadets and out there with my tray and can during the couple weekends before November 11th.

What sort of help do you feel the legion could use with this fundraising from those of us that are not members?


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## redleafjumper

Springroll, there are many things one might do.  You may not know this but as a former cadet with a set amount of service you are eligble to join your local legion as a voting associate member.  That would be a good start.  Second, volunteer a few hours to help on the campaign.  Many of the volunteers are older and some of the lifting, toting tasks are easier done by younger folks.  Driving canvassers, looking after poppy trays in hotels restaurants or bars, or even making a donation in addition to the small poppy donation would all help.

Thanks for asking!


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## geo

Coffee for the canvaser who is standing out there in the cold.

I know of 2 or 3 outdoor places where canvassers are standing out there in the cold. buy a poppy (though I already have) and give em a coffee while on my way to work...

I place Xtra poppies on people who ask me about em... I tell em the story, pin it on them and encourage them to support cause & buy a poppy for someone else.


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## Springroll

redleafjumper said:
			
		

> Springroll, there are many things one might do.   You may not know this but as a former cadet with a set amount of service you are eligble to join your local legion as a voting associate member.   That would be a good start.   Second, volunteer a few hours to help on the campaign.   Many of the volunteers are older and some of the lifting, toting tasks are easier done by younger folks.   Driving canvassers, looking after poppy trays in hotels restaurants or bars, or even making a donation in addition to the small poppy donation would all help.
> 
> Thanks for asking!



I didn't know that i could join with my cadet service..thats cool!
Guess I have another task to add to my list...thanks for answering.

Good idea Geo, I think I will do that next time I see one. Thanks for the idea!


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## redleafjumper

Poppy money is also used for student bursaries and to help with donations and funding for local mediacl equipment.
I went canvassing on the weekend, it is heartening to see so many people, some with very little, be willing to give.


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## geo

was asked to speak to ma boy's class @ school....
ended up talking / taking questions from pert much entire high school....
though presentation was done in French, was well received & students were attentive. Positive!

Throat was parched.... (need beer )


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## redleafjumper

Right on Geo, people with your experience are sorely needed to do that job.  I have a slide show that I do for school groups of a visit I took to Europe several years ago to various Canadian Battlefields and war cemetaries from WW1 and WW2.  It is pretty humbling stuff.  I will be doing one presentation of it to a group at a senior's home.


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## UberCree

When I picked my daughter up from Kindergarten today she noticed my poppy.  She said, "Daddy, those are to help us remember right?"  
I asked her what we are supposed to remember.
She said "They are supposed to help us remember all of the people that died so that we could be free in Canada."
Brought a tear to my eye.
She has a good teacher.


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## GAP

No poppy without permission, news site told
Last Updated: Tuesday, November 8, 2005 | 2:29 PM ET CBC News 
Article Link

Bourque Newswatch Website

The Royal Canadian Legion has told an Ottawa-based internet news site to stop using its poppy image to commemorate Remembrance Day. 
Pierre Bourque removed the Canadian poppy symbol from his website and replaced it with a British poppy image after warning e-mails from the legion's poppy and remembrance committee. 

The committee said unauthorized use of the poppy symbol could reduce the flower's value as a symbol of war remembrance, according to e-mail excerpts that Bourque posted on his site. 

"The poppy is a trademark of the legion and anyone who wants to use it has to apply," wrote Bob Butt, the communications director of the organization's Dominion Command. "Otherwise it would be all over the place." 

Butt's e-mail added: "Sorry, I know your heart and many others are in the right place." 

Though Bourque has taken the Canadian poppy image from his site, he defended his use of the graphic in a message posted on his site over the weekend. 

"Bourque Newswatch was merely promoting Remembrance Week and the Royal Canadian Legion, and honouring those men and women who have fought and given so much for us," he wrote. "Nothing more, nothing less." 
More on link


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## geo

Sigh!
what is wrong with this picture.....
"reduce the flower's value as a symbol of war rememberance"
"otherwise it would be all over the place"

Without saying that the use of the poppy in the display of a commercial web site is wrong, don't we want to have the poppy predominant between oct 28th and nov 11th?  In everyone's mind? Make everyone remember?


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## Fishbone Jones

It's all about lawyers and copyrights. Nothing to do with right and wrong. All the wrong people are being singled out on this one, on both sides. Someone should be bashing in the heavy oak door, that the penny pinching, bottom line, administrators (mostly all civie now) hide behind. Veterans no longer run the august organization that was once a proud RCL. It's been taken over by usless hangers on, that don't know why the org was formed in the first place, or what it truly stands for.


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## the 48th regulator

recceguy said:
			
		

> It's all about lawyers and copyrights. Nothing to do with right and wrong. All the wrong people are being singled out on this one, on both sides. Someone should be bashing in the heavy oak door, that the penny pinching, bottom line, administrators (mostly all civie now) hide behind. Veterans no longer run the august organization that was once a proud RCL. It's been taken over by usless hangers on, that don't know why the org was formed in the first place, or what it truly stands for.



Here here,

I second that motion,

Support of the Troops, specifically new veterans is not asa it once was, and I say this with eperience.

dileas

tess


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## Bane

The poppy has become institutionalized.  It's the thoughts and the memories, the learning and the teaching, that counts.


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## geo

Between Oct 28th and Nov 11th, I'd like to see the Poppy "EVERYWHERE".

For, as they say, "LEST WE FORGET".... (as the Legion appears to have forgotten)


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## Hawk

Well, that sure gives me second thoughts about putting on a poppy. Maybe I'll just wear a yellow ribbon instead. Or maybe I just need another coffee.

My Dad, a Vet. insisted every year that we, and his grand children after us, wore a poppy. I don't think he'd have been pleased. Incidently, he was Past President of ANAF, and wouldn't join Legion.


Hawk


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## JBoyd

I have a problem with them claiming that the POPPY is trademarked. It is a flower, not something they drew up out of their minds. Personally I would tell whomever contacted them from the Legion to stuff it as they have really no legal avenues to pursue.


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## Greymatters

GAP said:
			
		

> The committee said unauthorized use of the poppy symbol could reduce the flower's value as a symbol of war remembrance, according to e-mail excerpts that Bourque posted on his site.



What a crock.  While the legion may own the rights to selling a plastic poppy immitation, it certainly should not be able to claim the right to the image across Canada.  What next, sueing nursery schools when the kids draw pictures of poppies for Remembrance Day?  As recceguy said, its not about right/wrong, its now about making a buck.

 :tsktsk:


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## JBoyd

I did a small bit of searching and found Mr. Butt's offical Legion email address, just incase anyone here would like to let the man know of their opinions of this matter.

bbutt@legion.ca


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## Hawk

I poked around online and found this:

http://www.legion.ca/asp/docs/BB_05/05-057.htm

It appears they can do this. I found another site that says the poppy was copyrighted in 1948. Not right, but there it is.


Hawk


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## Bruce Monkhouse

All those who think they shouldn't hold a copyright should keep quiet then when a website like this pops up...............cause it will.






THIS POPPY IS OUR WAY OF SAYING SORRY TO ALL THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS THE CANADIAN ARMY HAS BUTCHERED AROUND THE WORLD.


                                         PEACE OUT


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## JBoyd

Hawk said:
			
		

> I poked around online and found this:
> 
> http://www.legion.ca/asp/docs/BB_05/05-057.htm
> 
> It appears they can do this. I found another site that says the poppy was copyrighted in 1948. Not right, but there it is.
> 
> 
> Hawk



It looks like they may have copyright's on their VERSION of the poppy 







However the generic image of a poppy that we all know and love should have no rights reserved.






 (yes I realize that is a picture of an actual wearable poppy, however could not quickly find a drawn image of the poppy (that was different than the one that Bruce posted above), like the one in the lest you forget avatar for this site.


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## TCBF

I joined the RCL 26 years ago because of the good things they did for WW1 and WW2 vets, some of whom were my relatives.  As those vets died off, a new generatrion has kept the Legion keep branches afloat in dozens of small towns across Canada for the benefit of those old vets still alive.  That is changing.  As soon as smoking was banned, the crowds started thinning out and dying off.

Perhaps it is time for a new generation of veterans to join and carry the torch.  Any organization must change to stay relevant and new blood is needed to carry on.

But: In Canada, WW1 produced 600,000 veterans and WW2 almost a million. There is nowhere near that many CF vets being produced at once today.  

If we don't feel the Legion is responsive to are needs, then we should join it and change it.

Will that happen? Probably not.  Our greatest generations of yesteryear were our joiners, our builders and our organisers.  Something about having survived the wars and the 'Great Depression' of the 'Dirty Thirties'.  Boomers and younger mostly 'cocoon' in their residences, surrounded by their electronics.

We have yet to experience our generation's greatest trauma.


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## vonGarvin

The Royal Canadian Legion started as "The Great War Veterans' Association".  Why not start an "Afghanistan War Veterans' Association?"  I think that the poppy could be supplanted by the marajuana leaf as our "emblem of remembrance"

In Panjwai's fields, the marajuana grows
Between the mudhuts, row on row
That mark our LD; and in the sky
The Apaches, still bravely gunning, fly
Scare heard amid the Bushmasters below.


EDIT: Apologies to LCol McRae.  This is just me being sarcastic.


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## military granny

OK I have to put my $0.02  worth in here. Yes the Legion Poppy Campaign generates money but do you know where that money goes ? Any Legion across Canada has to abide by strict rules on where the money collected can be donated.This fund can not be used for everyday cost of running the Legion.  VETERANS or Veteran extended care facilities,widows of Veterans etc. receive most of the money. If there was no copyright on the poppy, and it was available year round, do you really think the Legion could collect enough money to help our Veterans as much as they do?

http://legion.ca/asp/docs/rempoppy/mandate_e.asp


The major source of funding for the Legion to accomplish this most important work is the annual Poppy Campaign, the foundation of our Remembrance Program. It is the generosity of Canadians that enables the Legion to ensure that our veterans and their dependants are cared for and treated with the respect that they deserve.


----------



## Greymatters

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> All those who think they shouldn't hold a copyright should keep quiet then when a website like this pops up...............cause it will.



There is nothing wrong with their holding a copyright for the products they produce or sell, however the Legion has claimed the image of the poppy as theirs and no one else's.  It may be legal, but I find it ethically and morally wrong.  The poppy does not belong to a corporation, it belongs to the men and women and their families who fought for peace, and those who support that concept.  The copyright should be used as a tool to protect the symbol from misuse, not as a money-making machine.  Any person or organization should be able to show that symbol as a gesture of their support, not be told to take it down.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

They can,.......just not the copyrighted one without permission.

See MG's post above for more.


----------



## Strike

Granny,

In response to your statement does that mean the copywrite is on the symbol or the plastic poppy alone?

I fail to see how posting a photo on a web site can reduce the number of poppies sold over the season.  Now, if someone was making poppy pins and selling/giving them away, I could see the upset.

Which brings up a good point...wouldn't the white poppy pins be considered a copywrite infringment?

(Aside: Always held to the belief that the Legion kept the current design of a straight pin to that we would lose them more often and have to keep buying them.   ;D  It's for a good cause.  What do I care.)


----------



## vonGarvin

Strike said:
			
		

> (Aside: Always held to the belief that the Legion kept the current design of a straight pin to that we would lose them more often and have to keep buying them.   ;D  It's for a good cause.  What do I care.)



It may just be a conspiracy theory, but you're right: it's for a good cause and I buy a poppy about once every two to three days, it seems.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

You don't have to buy them if you don't want too, that is just an option.
[not aimed at you Strike/ MR,.. just saying]


----------



## Blindspot

As a graphic designer, I can understand copyright issues on logos, combination marks etc. The government of Ontario has a stylized trillium that shouldn't be used boundlessly. As for the sentiment factor, the solution is simple. Option one: render your own poppy. The shape is open to individual interpretation within easily constructed limits. The colours are a no-brainer. The second option would be for him to ask permission. If he's refused, see option one.

Seems to me, either option would have more sentiment behind it then simply plastering someone else's intellectual property on your website.


----------



## military granny

Strike
All the web site had to do was contact the Legion Command and ask permission, hell even facebook got permission to allow people to post the poppy on their sites. The web site in question failed to do so and were told to remove it. From where I'm sitting if the owners of the web site didn't know the copywrite for the poppy was held by the Legion then OK a mistake was made and they can fix it in a few ways. If they knew and ignored it then there could be big trouble, still fixable with a letter sent to Legion Command.


----------



## JBoyd

I agree with that the website should have asked to use the legions stylized poppy, however the legion does not hold rights to the poppy in general, or the fact it is used as a rememberance due to a poem. The poppy will be around long after the legion , and most likely will still hold the same rememberance, not only due to a national holiday, but from the passing on's of generations. I support wearing poppy's in rememberance, however perhaps this year I will construct my own poppy for rememberance.


----------



## redleafjumper

Military Granny is completely correct.  As a past legion branch president, I can assure you that there all sort of persons who are quite willing to misuse or misrepresent the poppy for purposes not in keeping with the poppy as the symbol of remembrance.  Consider the 'white poppy" which pops up as a direct counterpoint to the blood red poppy of Flanders. There are a number of stylized versions of the poppy symbol in use for the Poppy Campaign and remembrance and they are all copyrighted by the various legions including the British Commonwealth ex-Services  League, British Legion and so on.  The design of the poppy varies greatly from country to country; a friend brought me a nice one from Australia which is a long stemmed poppy which looks quite flower-like.

It should be remembered that at the conclusion of the Great War, there were many veteran's organizations.  It was very quickly realized that combining those with common interests would make the greater sum of them much more effective in furthering the aims and needs of veterans.  Some groups never merged with the Legion and chose to remain separate.  Some veterans didn't like the involvement of Field Marshall Haig who dedicated his life to veteran's causes after WW1.  Still others decried what they saw as the watering down of the Legion in the 1940s by adding those WW2 veterans and others.  I hope that we are all beyond those differences and realize that the Royal Canadian Legion is a critical part of promoting veterans' rights and ensuring that the sacrifices of the fallen are remembered  for all time.

The Poppy is the symbol of remembrance; it must be protected so as not to degrade, minimize or misrepresent that remembrance for purposes in conflict with the aims and objectives of the the Poppy Campaign and the support of veterans and their dependants.  That's why that symbol is protected and why that protection is important.  Wearing a poppy means that you have helped to support veterans and their dependants.  Wearing one you made means that haven't, and are trying to make a political statement that really helps no one.

Cheers,

Redleafjumper


----------



## GAP

The RCL needs to give it's head a shake.....

Displaying the poppy for purposes of support of the RCL campaign and Remembrance Day is not the people you need to be slagging by threatening court action. If the purpose is being misused....fine go after them with both barrels blazing.....but displaying for purposes of support.....gimme a break!!

and don't tell me about setting precedents.....that's crap.


----------



## the 48th regulator

> "The poppy is a trademark of the legion and anyone who wants to use it has to apply," wrote Bob Butt, the communications director of the organization's Dominion Command. "Otherwise it would be all over the place."
> 
> Butt's e-mail added: "Sorry, I know your heart and many others are in the right place."



Why then did he not explain it as a loss of income, from being on his site.

My understanding is that Butt does not wish to water down the meaning of the Poppy, through mass use. 

Now to me, this just says that they can pick an choose who can use the Poppy?  I hope they remember that the next time the general public takes action against a store or some other corporate organization that refuses to acknowledge the Poppy.

dileas

tess


----------



## redleafjumper

Of course the Legion clears who might use the poppy for corporate purposes and certainly those wanting to "use" the poppy should expect to ask.  The problem with places not "acknowledging the poppy" as Tess put it, is usually one of refusing to allow the Legion to canvass for the poppy campaign.  

It is probably useful at this point to review the specific uses of the poppy funds.

The Poppy is the symbol of Remembrance and funds raised in the poppy campaign are used for:

1.  Assistance to ex-service personnel and their dependants
2.  Affordable housing and care facilities for veterans and other elderly or disabled persons and their dependants
3.  Community medical appliances and medical research and training 
4.  Support services for seniors such as drop-in centres, meals-on-wheels, transportation and related services
5.  Providing bursaries for needy students
6.  Cost of the poppies, wreaths and supplies

When one donates to the poppy campaign and wears a poppy, or displays a wreath, or just makes a donation, that is what the money is used to support.  The money is used in the community where it is raised except if unspent at the end of the poppy campaign year (early fall) when left-over funds are collected by command for provincial projects that support the above.  I have personally helped to distribute these funds and it is heartening to see the difference that these public monies, held and given out in trust by the RC Legion, make to people.

The Legion does not have a monopoly on remembering the fallen, as that is a personal matter, but the Legion is the custodian of the symbol of remembrance and how that symbol is used.  I firmly believe that that custodianship is needed, well warranted and well looked after by the Royal Canadian Legion.


----------



## GAP

Nobody is arguing that for corporate purposes the RCL should mandate permission. 

A little common sense needs to be used here. 

If, close to Remembrance Day, a site puts a poppy on to remember the fallen, that enhances the RCL campaign. 

There is no return to the website owner for displaying the poppy at that time, other than that people are being encouraged to remember the upcoming day of remembrance.


----------



## redleafjumper

GAP, it actually depends on the site.  Some sites may have messages which may not be in line with the purposes of the poppy campaign.  Does the use of the symbol need to be carefully controlled?  Of course it does, or the message might be confused or associated with some purpose of a questionable nature.  That's why it is important to ask, because sometimes it might be necessary to say "no".


----------



## Munxcub

It's not like they were asking for a license fee to display it, just ask permission first. (unless I missed something...)


----------



## 1feral1

I am afeard the Legion is out of caidance with this move.


Wes


----------



## redleafjumper

As I understand the original point, the group in question posted poppy imagery without seeking permission.  That is a clear violation of the  copyright held by the Legion.  What the posting agency needed to do was seek permission before posting and receive a response.  When permission has not been obtained then the posting must come down until permission has been obtained.  Good intentions aside, without some control, there would continue to be serious risks of misuse of the poppy.  

Seems straightforward to me.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

..and for some reason I believe the Legion and Bourque's website have clashed before.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Aww, for craps sake.......did anyone check out the friggin' year on GAP's original post??

http://www.lawyersweekly.ca/index.php?section=article&articleid=229

 Poppy trade-mark argument reveals unique amalgam of rights  Print This Article  

 By Bob Tarantino
On Nov. 4, 2005, a representative of the Royal Canadian Legion contacted Pierre Bourque, author of the widely-read Canadian news website


----------



## vonGarvin

Attention to detail.  We are all guilty of NOT paying attention.

So, what about an Afghan War Veterans' Association, with the marajuana leaf (green, of course) as our symbol?  ;D


----------



## Blindspot

Is this some sort of miscommunication with regard to the original news piece? The way I'm reading it is that the "offender" used a copyrighted logo of the Legion and not a some royalty-free artistic representation of a poppy, a photograph of a poppy or the word "poppy". If it was the Legion's specific logo that he used that then are well within their rights to demand he remove it from his website. I don't think the concept of the poppy and its signifigance is at issue here.

Consider if he wanted to put a maple leaf on his website and used the logo of the Toronto Maple Leafs.


----------



## GAP

oops


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

This is locked, unless of course, 2007 brings something new.


----------



## WannaBeFlyer

Veterans outraged over theft of collection boxes 
By FRANK LANDRY, CITY HALL BUREAU
http://www.edmontonsun.com/News/Edmonton/2007/11/08/pf-4639982.html

City veterans are outraged by a rash of thefts where heartless bandits made off with Remembrance Day collection boxes. 

The money raised through the annual Greater Edmonton Poppy Fund campaign is supposed to go to vets in need. 

"It's a shame, it's a total disrespect to the poppy fund and what the fund is supposed to stand for," said vet Robert Torrie, sergeant-at-arms at the Kingsway branch of the Royal Canadian Legion. 

"You want my opinion? It's a lack of education." 

Jacqueline Miller, the poppy fund's campaign manager, said at least five thefts have been reported to her office in the past two weeks. But she said there have likely been more. 

"Those are the ones we know about," Miller said, adding a handful of collection boxes are swiped every year. 

"Obviously, we wish it wouldn't happen. That means those funds don't make it to the veterans." 

She said the annual campaign, which kicked off in late October, typically raises around $100,000 in Edmonton. It's used to buy things like walkers and wheelchairs. 

The manager of two city Tim Hortons, who asked that her name and the locations of the restaurants not be printed, said thieves recently made off with collection boxes at both locations she oversees. 

"They didn't just take the bucket, they took everything, even the poppies," she said. "I can tell you our customers are disgusted." 

The frustrated manager said she now keeps the donation boxes behind the counter. 

Gerry Finlay, provincial service officer with the Royal Canadian Legion, said he couldn't believe people would stoop to stealing from charity. 

"Honestly, I just feel absolute outrage," said Finlay, who retired from the military in 2005 after 28 years of service. 

"Not everybody comes out of the military with a generous pension in place and a golden handshake. 

"We see a lot of individuals who have fallen on hard times, and the poppy fund goes a long way in easing some of their financial frustrations." 

Edmonton Police Service spokesman Jeff Wuite said cops don't specifically track the theft of Remembrance Day donation boxes, but he knows there have been at least a "handful." 

Wuite advised people to keep close tabs on the change buckets to make sure they don't go missing. 

Torrie said short of chaining the donation boxes to the counter, he doesn't believe much can be done. 

"It's grab and run," he said. "The people turn around to pour a coffee or grab a doughnut at Tim Hortons, and it's gone. And so is the clown that was looking for the doughnut."


----------



## geo

I think that part of the problem is that the new poppy boxes have a clear transparent cash bin.
Everyone can see how much cash they might be able to grab & decide if it's worth the rish

While more expensive, I think the old metal tin was a better mousetrap.

To the thieves... SHAME ON YOU!


----------



## Teflon

As disgusting as I find this there is at least one bright side (to use the term loosely for sure) and that is that at least the Poppy Fund genorates enough donations to make it worth some detestable thief ripping off.

That being said I still find it sad that ANYONE would be able to bring themselves to steal ANY donation box at all. I mean seriously, come on, the box is there to try and help people who for whatever charitable reason are facing hard times, leave the things alone scumbags!


----------



## JBoyd

What a despiciable act. I agree Teflon, how can anyone be so low as to steal a collection box, Its like stealing from a baby (not literally). It is just morally and ethically wrong. It is also sad that the Police are not planning on really doing anything about this, I know that really nothing much would happen to them other then a small amount of jail time and a fine possible, but I sure would like to do something to those people


----------



## geo

Each will be a "Theft under 500$"
considered by the police to be more of a nuisance than a real crime..... what a shame!

If precedent is any indication, I can only hope that some wealthy benefactor will step in and donate towards what was lost.


----------



## Teflon

JBoyd said:
			
		

> What a despiciable act. I agree Teflon, how can anyone be so low as to steal a collection box, Its like stealing from a baby (not literally). It is just morally and ethically wrong. It is also sad that the Police are not planning on really doing anything about this, I know that really nothing much would happen to them other then a small amount of jail time and a fine possible, but I sure would like to do something to those people



The police didn't say they are not planning on really doing anything. They stated:



> cops don't specifically *track* the theft of Remembrance Day donation boxes


 meaning that they don't keep specific figures/stats on the theft of them.

But to be honest unless they see the thief with the the box/bucket or the thief is caught on a surveillance camera the chances of getting him are quite slim.


----------



## JBoyd

AHh ok I misinterpretted that statement. However you are right it is going to be hard, does not mean that I or anyone else for that matter  can not wish that these people burn where they belong....


----------



## Rayman

Either way its a total gut-less act of retards. These veterans fought for Canada so that they (these people) arent enslaved and can be free but theyre going and stealing their funds? People like that deserve a good beating if you ask me.


----------



## JBoyd

Rayman said:
			
		

> Either way its a total gut-less act of retards. These veterans fought for Canada so that they (these people) arent enslaved and can be free but theyre going and stealing their funds? People like that deserve a good beating if you ask me.



The way i look at it, is the veterans did fight for canada as you said and frankly these thieves are probably who they are today because of the veterans, so if they are caught I say they should be stripped of their canadian-ship (or whatever it is call  ) and be forced to leave this great country, if they cannot respect the men who helped make this country what it is today then they do not deserve to reside here.


----------



## PMedMoe

JBoyd said:
			
		

> if they cannot respect the men who helped make this country what it is today



And women!!  

I think the worst thing about this is that it seems to happen every year!!


----------



## JBoyd

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> And women!!
> 
> I think the worst thing about this is that it seems to happen every year!!




Yes, of course. Sorry did not mean to leave them out. 

And yes definatly a sign that something in society is seriously wrong


----------



## Mike Baker

I think that it happend in St. John's yesterday too. It is a huge disgrace to veterans


----------



## Thompson_JM

Hopefully the mouth breathers who did this are Caught, and dealt with accordingly... phone books perhaps...


----------



## JBoyd

perhaps the goverment should create an operation in Nov only. OP Poppywatch.  they can employ people to watch the poppy stands and take action against those who steal or try to steal the collections. and by action I mean without prejudice


----------



## Rayman

Hows this? I agree with the extra enforcement but when caught and convicted, they owe the legion a fine of $50 000. That will really help the veterans and if it doesnt instill some sort of respect for them, box stealing will be a thing of the past.


----------



## geo

Still think that the clear plastic cash box is part of the problem.
Some people see a stack of loonies & toonies, maybe a bunch of bills and they get tempted.....
Have an opaque box, something that can't be popped open with a flick of the wrist.


----------



## Greymatters

What is most detestable to me is not the theft of the donation boxes/cans, but who they are preying on - usually retired/disabled CF/Legion members/volunteers, most of whom dont have the physical strength to defend themselves or the boxes...  and at the other end of the scale are cadets and boy scouts/girl guides who also lack strength and the ability to defende themselves.  

What kind of person can look themselves in the mirror after preying on the old and the young?


----------



## geo

A lot of these trays were simply left on counters.  Not yanked out of the hands of Legionaires or Cadets.

See the comment that stores would keep the trays behind the counter...


----------



## Greymatters

Missed that line... which makes it only slightly less reprehensible....


----------



## geo

To dopers and kids, cash left in plain sight AND unattended, it's probably irresistible


----------



## Teflon

Rayman said:
			
		

> Hows this? I agree with the extra enforcement but when caught and convicted, they owe the legion a fine of $50 000. That will really help the veterans and if it doesnt instill some sort of respect for them, box stealing will be a thing of the past.



Somehow I don`t think that anyone who is out there ripping off donation boxes would be able to pay a $50 000. fine.  Stiff penalties are one thing, impossible ones are meaningless


----------



## R.O.S

This is just sick and pathetic, the lowest kind of act by the lowest kind of people. I could never imagine even thinking of such of an act, stealing from charity is so horrible to think of. Stealing from veterans is a kick in the face to those who believed in this country and its people. Thankfully this is a minority of people here in Canada, most of us dearly respect the veterans.  



			
				Teflon said:
			
		

> Somehow I don`t think that anyone who is out there ripping off donation boxes would be able to pay a $50 000. fine.  Stiff penalties are one thing, impossible ones are meaningless



I would agree however there should be higher penalty for stealing from charity, or better yet 'vulnerable'... I also agree with the article that this is an act that shows total lack of education.


----------



## George Wallace

This is not the first time that this has happened.  It happened last year as well.  Also remember the low life who have robbed the Salvation Army Kettles and other Christmas donations.  They are all across the land, and will constantly stoop low and steal from charities when they feel the need for easy cash.  They are bottom feeders.


----------



## 1feral1

Yes this behaviour is disgusting!

Remember guys, a criminal mind has no conscience, and the boxes are an easy steal.

Criminals don't care about anyone but themselves.

They are all losers, that we can agree on.

Don't worry, their karma will come calling sooner or later.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Rayman

Teflon said:
			
		

> Somehow I don`t think that anyone who is out there ripping off donation boxes would be able to pay a $50 000. fine.  Stiff penalties are one thing, impossible ones are meaningless



I guess you are right, but it would mess up their credit, give them a criminal record but that would mean nothing to these types. Make them scrub the legions toilets for a month per 10 dollars stolen. Dont want to? Off to Kingston for you.


----------



## kayakguyt72

I can tell you that if I were to witness someone stealing one of the boxes in front of me it would be all over for that individual :skull:, I would be willing to plead guilty to whatever charge they threw at me as a result of my actions.  I think it's a pretty despicable act!!  I'm sure that my grandfather, God rest his soul, would look upon me with an approving smile.


----------



## R.O.S

Rayman said:
			
		

> I guess you are right, but it would mess up their credit, give them a criminal record but that would mean nothing to these types. Make them scrub the legions toilets for a month per 10 dollars stolen. Dont want to? Off to Kingston for you.



Likely they do not have a good credit to start with. If these are adults then I doubt that have a Gold Visa in their pockets. But if financially we cannot hurt them, why not look at alternatives like you suggested. Maybe public humiliation, in some states an individual who stole from charity or a store has to stand in front of the store with a big sign saying their crime... 

For the youths however, they might be misguided, maybe work off the money they stole with volunteering at the legion. Not only make them do the crap work, but get them involved, maybe then they will understand what idiots and pathetic individuals they had become. And common guys and gals we all were young, I still am short of, and I mean we all can look back at one point or another and say "what an idiot I was, if I only new better". NOT saying any of us would go so low, I am just trying to point out that when it comes to youths there can be change.


----------



## Greymatters

In this morning's paper, the article reported that at least 7 boxes have been stolen on Vancouver Island alone... 

Multiply by population regions, increase theft rates for high density populations... thats a lot of boxes that have potentially already been or will be stolen!


----------



## Jarnhamar

Every year round this time you  read an article in the paper or on the net about something the vets are outraged over.


----------



## 1feral1

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Every year round this time you  read an article in the paper or on the net about something the vets are outraged over.



I think Canucks at large would be disgusted over this one. Same goes for the theft of other boxes, whether its for the blind, cancer research, or similar shocking diseases.

I am a veteran, but not outraged, just yet again disgusted.
Sadly, if caught, they will say they came from a broken home, or the ADD made him do it, or yet again, have some other piss weak lame excuse, and the limp-wristed legal system will pander to their every whim. 

Just remember, in this day and age, victims of crime have no rights, and the 'dog shyte' that commits the crimes has the system by the balls, and is pulling hard as hell to rip them out of their bag!

A simple flogging with a 'cat of 9 tails' would teach them much more than a slap on the hands.

Face it, in Singapore they would not be stealing those boxes  ;D


Wes


----------



## Snafu-Bar

What the hell was this clown thinking?

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2008/10/31/7268341.html

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2008/11/01/7271986-sun.html

Poppy-selling vet bounced
85-year-old told to leave by The Bay

By KEVIN CONNOR, SUN MEDIA



In the 20 years veteran Alan Lawrence has been selling poppies he has never felt as dishonoured as he did yesterday when Hudson Bay Company security kicked him to the curb. 

He was inside the Bay office tower at Yonge and Bloor Sts. selling poppies like he had for years when security told him to get of the property. 

"It just shows how much some people think about what we did, and that hurts," said Lawrence, 85, who joined England's Royal Navy at 16. 

"They have some nerve resenting me standing on their property and telling me to get off. I couldn't believe anyone could be so obnoxious. 

"We made it possible for him (the security guard) to have a job. He wouldn't have it if Hitler had won." 

Lawrence had a similar experience five years ago at the Toronto Stock Exchange. 

"It isn't always that pleasant standing outside. To kick me out is absolutely stupid and I can't believe it could happen in Toronto," Lawrence said. 

Others couldn't believe it, either. 

Mike Sawyer, who has been a reservist for the past four years, went into the store's management office to give them a piece of his mind. 

"It's disgusting. This business is only possible because of men like him. I can't believe the attitude," Sawyer said. 

Beverly Scarrow says she can't believe a veteran would be treated in this fashion. 

"My father is a veteran. It's ridiculous something like this could happen. It's not like this isn't a good cause. It is sad they would have this attitude toward a veteran," Scarrow said. 

Businesses do have a right to say who can be on their property, said Ray Kokkonen, acting president of the Canadian Peacekeeping Veterans Association. 

STRANGE HAPPENING 

"I find this strange. As long as you aren't obstructing traffic, most businesses are happy to work with the campaign," he said. 

"I'll be going out in a few days to sell poppies and I can't think of a good reason for a business to kick someone out." 

Pebble Carrier, a member of the Royal Canadian Legion, Branch 344, says members should get clearance from companies before they started campaigning. 

"There are some who would go out (not representing any organization) and are just panhandling," he said. 

Brookfield Property Management, which told Lawrence to leave, has since apologized. 

"One of our security saw him (Lawrence) and he didn't have a memo authorizing him to be there and he was asked to leave even though he was here for a good cause," said Arash Ghorbandaei, Brookfield director of security. 

Money donated to the Royal Canadian Legion during the Remembrance campaign is placed in public trust funds and is used to help needy ex-service members and their families. 

"It isn't just for the veterans but also for our boys overseas right now," Carrier said. 


Edit to add video clip.


----------



## Kat Stevens

What's this country world coming to?  If these men hadn't gone off and done the business, Arash Ghorbandaei, and all his family would be either extinct or looking out through several strands of barbed wire.


----------



## Greymatters

Despite the goodwill of the person in question, security guards act on what they are told to do.  

Basically I'm objecting to your thread title.  There's nothing in the story to imply that these guards 'embarassed' the company by acting on their own initiative...

If anyone is to blame, the management company is : "Brookfield Property Management, which told Lawrence to leave, has since apologized."


----------



## Blacksmith

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Despite the goodwill of the person in question, security guards act on what they are told to do.



But why can't they think for themselves instead of acting like mindless automatons?
Surely the security guard in question could have asked his superiors if it would be ok for this man, a veteran no less, to sell some poppies on their property?
And I don't want to hear the old "they're not paid enough to think for themselves" excuse because it is as irrelevant as it is insulting. 
Just my 2c, spend them where you will.


----------



## geo

Hmmm.... another year.... same story

Canadian Tire & the CIBC (?) have done the same thing in prior years.... only to do a lot of backpedalling & Apologizing a short while later.

This early in the Poppy campaign is, in actual fact, a good thing - in that the Media will jump onto the bandwagon & make more people aware....

It's a bad thing for a good cause sorta thing


----------



## George Wallace

Blacksmith said:
			
		

> But why can't they think for themselves instead of acting like mindless automatons?
> Surely the security guard in question could have asked his superiors if it would be ok for this man, a veteran no less, to sell some poppies on their property?
> And I don't want to hear the old "they're not paid enough to think for themselves" excuse because it is as irrelevant as it is insulting.
> Just my 2c, spend them where you will.



"Job Security"

Do as they are told, or be unemployed.  

Some have initiative, and would have questioned the gentleman and then spoken to their superiors, rather than blindly following orders and kicking the gentleman out.  Others don't have those skills.  Guess which ones we just witnessed?


----------



## Greymatters

Blacksmith said:
			
		

> But why can't they think for themselves instead of acting like mindless automatons?
> Surely the security guard in question could have asked his superiors if it would be ok for this man, a veteran no less, to sell some poppies on their property?
> And I don't want to hear the old "they're not paid enough to think for themselves" excuse because it is as irrelevant as it is insulting.
> Just my 2c, spend them where you will.



It must be surprising to you then that (most) security guards can think for themselves.

However, the people they work for (the clients, not company that hires the guards) are usually the ones who think security guards are mindless automatons.  The security guards are hired to carry out client policies, and if the client says 'get him off the property' thats what they are paid to do, the same way a lawyer sues somebody when a client tells him to, or an accountant files an invoice when the client say to.  

As long as lines of conduct are followed, they are not doing anything legally or ethically wrong.  It also means that the person giving the order (the client) is the one who is at fault here.  You should also note that even the Legion rep said that it is normal for persons collecting donations to coord their activities with stores so as not to get mistaken for panhandlers and con artits.

You should also note that they didnt beat the person up or abuse him.  Im sure the person they offended would have said so if they had.  They politely asked him to leave and he did.  If the client had asked them to do this (use excessive force), then I would expect almost any security guard to refuse.  That is the difference between what they did ("their job") and what you are suggesting they didnt do ("think for themselves").

Of course, these same guards also have the option of not doing what the client says, in which case they have the option to be fired and try to find work somewhere else.  But people like to have a job so they can feed their families, so not everyone can afford to act on a high moral plain.   

To sum up, I dont think the guy should have been evicted either, but its not my store, and its certainly not the security guards fault.  As a result, I think your 2 cents have been devalued, now worth about 0.5 cents, and I left it in the tip jar...


----------



## Greymatters

George Wallace said:
			
		

> "Job Security"
> 
> Do as they are told, or be unemployed.
> 
> Some have initiative, and would have questioned the gentleman and then spoken to their superiors, rather than blindly following orders and kicking the gentleman out.  Others don't have those skills.  Guess which ones we just witnessed?



Option B) - they told the client and he said "get rid of him anyway"...


----------



## SupersonicMax

IMHO, the canvassers should request permission from the organizations before they set up on their grounds.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

My feelings regarding this issue is this.

 The country knows damn well that Rememberance day is coming up, and with that the Vets are going to be making thier appearances and the poppies will be presented for donations. Show immediate respect for the sacrifices they endured for our way of life and let them be. Be proud as a Canadian that people such as this are still able to walk amongst us and share thier memories and feelings knowing that they are not forgotten nor disrespected in any such manner as this again.

 There should be a law against this type of ignorance and stupidity. 




edit for spelling...


----------



## Edward Campbell

SupersonicMax is, broadly, correct. Solicitation campaigns ought to have permission to do their business on private property. But, SanfuBar's point is also well taken: a couple of annual campaigns, including the Remembrance Day _poppy drive_, are so well known as to merit a little line or two of their own in all corporate rule books. Those who decide not to allow the campaign should tell the Royal Canadian Legion, thus avoiding the bad publicity that inevitably results from situations like this. While the onus *ought* to be on the Legion, in practice, it needs to be with the companies.

This happens every year; every year the corporations concerned _climb down_ and all is well - despite a few ruffled feathers (amongst vets) and a few red faces (in corporate offices).

But, no there ought not to be a law. We have enough laws that are not enforced and, anyway, you cannot legislate against stupidity.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> There should be a law against this type of ignorance and stupidity.


And what would the rest of us do after everyone else was charged and incarcerated?


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Enjoy the peace and quiet  ;D


----------



## Strike

I've spent enough weekends tagging and selling poppies.  Both the Navy League (tagging) and Legion ALWAYS organized where we were going to be canvassing and ALWAYS got permission from the stores/companies.  They even went so far as to tell the city where we were going to be stationed on Princess St as a matter of courtesy.

Yes, it should really be common sense that the Legion will be sending people out during the poppie drive, but the Legion has a responsibility to contact the businesses they want to canvass at.  This will only help to cover their own a$$ in case some imposter decides to try and make a few bucks doing the same thing.  Yes, it happens.  For any Legion not to do this I see as them being either incredibly naive or arrogant.  (Note on this last remark I mean the people organizing the drive and not the whole organization.  I have also seen this happen and cause a Legion to go under, but that's a whole other ball of wax.)


----------



## karl28

It's just sad that we as a nation have come to this point ( where we need a permission form for every single thing ).  I really feel for this veteran but at the same time I don't blame the security guard he has a job and he has to do weather he likes it or not .  I think upper management should use some common sense in this case a simple phone call to the Veteran's legion to verify that the person had the right to be there would of avoided this whole situation. 


  just my two cents


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Vets should have the rights to go ANYWHERE they damn well please in this country. The rest of us only need to move out of thier way and appreciate what they done for us and our country.

 As for the asshats at Hudson Bankrupt Co. and the Property mis-management company, I hope they learned thier damn lesson.  


Cheers.


----------



## George Wallace

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Vets should have the rights to go ANYWHERE they damn well please in this country.



Interesting sentiment.  And how do you identify all of these "Vets"?  Look at all of the "posers" that are out there dressed up and wearing phoney medals.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

If they can make a photo health or drivers liscense they can do the same for the veterans so they can produce a legit piece of ID. This country should be willing to provide these individuals for the sake of instances such as this. Or any others in the future. 

 I know uni's are being duped as well as some of the medals so that's not the issue with identifiying these people, however a legit Ottawa issued Veterans card would be the right way to go with regards to making sure that Vets can produce a valid card proving they are who they are and that should be sufficient enough. 

 Cheers.


----------



## George Wallace

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> If they can make a photo health or drivers liscense they can do the same for the veterans so they can produce a legit piece of ID. This country should be willing to provide these individuals for the sake of instances such as this. Or any others in the future.
> 
> I know uni's are being duped as well as some of the medals so that's not the issue with identifiying these people, however a legit Ottawa issued Veterans card would be the right way to go with regards to making sure that Vets can produce a valid card proving they are who they are and that should be sufficient enough.
> 
> Cheers.



So you are suggesting that "Vets" be "carded" to prove who they are?

Just like you when you go to a club?  How old were you when you went the first time, and was it your real ID?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> If they can make a photo health or drivers liscense they can do the same for the veterans so they can produce a legit piece of ID. This country should be willing to provide these individuals for the sake of instances such as this. Or any others in the future.
> 
> I know uni's are being duped as well as some of the medals so that's not the issue with identifiying these people, however a legit Ottawa issued Veterans card would be the right way to go with regards to making sure that Vets can produce a valid card proving they are who they are and that should be sufficient enough.



And how about fundraising?  Will this card allow fundraising without proof of sanction by the organization?

I hear you re:  someone selling poppies getting turfed, I agree the building managers may have handled it better, and I'm glad to see the thread title changed to let the guards off the hook.  

All that said, though, I also agree that any fundraising organization probably knows better than to send people off soliciting funds in privately-owned-and-managed buildings without checking first.  How would a Legion feel about an impromptu, unannounced fundraiser dropping by to collect money in the facility without asking permission?  I've done tag sales in Cadets, and we NEVER went into a mall without either 1)  being told permission had been obtained, or 2)  speaking to management and getting an OK.


----------



## medaid

Snafu-bar, you've obviously never worked in the private securities industries, and you can't seem to read either. HBC's in house propriety security (Loss Prevention) was NOT involved in this incident, so you've got nothing on them. The company who managed the property had already issued a statement expressing their regret in the situation. They said sorry. It was a legitimate mistake, and the guard who did their job in carrying out the client's wishes should NOT be blamed for that. 

You're out of line with your comments with regards to private security.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So you are suggesting that "Vets" be "carded" to prove who they are?
> 
> Just like you when you go to a club?  How old were you when you went the first time, and was it your real ID?



 I'm not suggesting they BE carded, I am however pointing out that having an issued card as proof of thier service should they wish to produce it in times of "ignorance" by some asshat who has no respect for these individuals. 

 As for going to a club and getting carded, I was 17 and was never carded,ironically till I turned 19. And no i never used fake ID.

Cheers.


----------



## George Wallace

However......Just to make you (Snafu-Bar) happy; DND has been issuing Retired Service Members cards for years.


----------



## SupersonicMax

Snafu, I think we will agree that vets fought to get and keep the freedoms we can enjoy day to day.  It's ones freedom to refuse to have vet soliciting on their premises.  Like it or not, this is for what they fought and we fight.  Being a vet or a service person doesn't give him/her any special right as if he/she is above others.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

MedTech said:
			
		

> Snafu-bar, you've obviously never worked in the private securities industries, and you can't seem to read either. HBC's in house propriety security (Loss Prevention) was NOT involved in this incident, so you've got nothing on them. The company who managed the property had already issued a statement expressing their regret in the situation. They said sorry. It was a legitimate mistake, and the guard who did their job in carrying out the client's wishes should NOT be blamed for that.
> 
> You're out of line with your comments with regards to private security.



 Pardon me for taking the Vet's side of this, I guess i feel the lack of respect is a little bit much for people who take thier freedom and liberties without thinking why and how they got them. I guess when i created the thread i should have said "Vet Disrespected by HB Co." 

 Cheers


----------



## George Wallace

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Pardon me for taking the Vet's side of this, I guess i feel the lack of respect is a little bit much for people who take thier freedom and liberties without thinking why and how they got them. I guess when i created the thread i should have said "Vet Disrespected by HB Co."
> 
> Cheers



Well!  Excuse us for pointing out some of the flaws in your ideas after you made several other posts.


----------



## Strike

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Snafu, I think we will agree that vets fought to get and keep the freedoms we can enjoy day to day.  It's ones freedom to refuse to have vet soliciting on their premises.  Like it or not, this is for what they fought and we fight.  *Being a vet or a service person doesn't give him/her any special right as if he/she is above others. *



And I would suspect that there are many vets that would agree with this sentiment.


----------



## TCBF

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ...All that said, though, I also agree that any fundraising organization probably knows better than to send people off soliciting funds in privately-owned-and-managed buildings without checking first.  How would a Legion feel about an impromptu, unannounced fundraiser dropping by to collect money in the facility without asking permission?  I've done tag sales in Cadets, and we NEVER went into a mall without either 1)  being told permission had been obtained, or 2)  speaking to management and getting an OK.



- Yet, this happens EVERY year and it is still news. One might suspect that the RCL relishes the free advertising!


----------



## P2CT

Having read the article, I feel bad that the gentelman was asked to leave the store. I agree with some, that just because one is wearing the Legion beret or some form of ex forces headgear, medals, and various pins doesn't mean anything to the average Canadian Civie. He could be a fraud artist, but at his age, common sence should mean something. Fraud is something more common to many of the young and lazy generation of today. I agree that Retired Military Members should have photo  ID Cards, but , DND did not issue Photo ID cards to retirees in the 1940's through to 1988 when I retired. Do they do so now? It used to be that one could trust the average Joe Public. You sure as heck can't trust the scam artists out there now. Incidentaly, I thought the HUDSON BAY CO. was sold to a Yank billionaire from South Carolina Mr. Jerry Zucker around 2005. One would think that a US Firm would honour vets. They were doing so when it wasn't fashionable to do so in Canada, no more than 10 years ago. You might note that the Rep for the Hudson Bay Co. has a very difficult name to pronounce. I doubt that any of his forefathers lived in Canada in the 1940's or 1950's. In fact I could wager that none of the Recent Canadian members of his family ever served in Canada's Forces. You have not seen names like that in the news covering Canadian Dead or Injured so far. NOT ONE!!!!! They only come here to reap the benefits that veterans have fought for and demand their rights.


----------



## Strike

P2CT said:
			
		

> Fraud is something more common to many of the young and lazy generation of today.



Not so.  There are more than a few seniors that have been "outed" as being frauds with their claims of being vets.  Do a google search to see.  It's more revalent than you would like to believe.



			
				P2CT said:
			
		

> You might note that the Rep for the Hudson Bay Co. has a very difficult name to pronounce. I doubt that any of his forefathers lived in Canada in the 1940's or 1950's. In fact I could wager that none of the Recent Canadian members of his family ever served in Canada's Forces. You have not seen names like that in the news covering Canadian Dead or Injured so far. NOT ONE!!!!! They only come here to reap the benefits that veterans have fought for and demand their rights.



What does someone's familial background have to do with anything?  I find your comments rude, overly righteous, and bordering on racism.  I do not know you and therefore will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just typing while angry.


----------



## GDawg

P2CT said:
			
		

> Having read the article, I feel bad that the gentelman was asked to leave the store. I agree with some, that just because one is wearing the Legion beret or some form of ex forces headgear, medals, and various pins doesn't mean anything to the average Canadian Civie. He could be a fraud artist, but at his age, common sence should mean something. Fraud is something more common to many of the young and lazy generation of today. I agree that Retired Military Members should have photo  ID Cards, but , DND did not issue Photo ID cards to retirees in the 1940's through to 1988 when I retired. Do they do so now? It used to be that one could trust the average Joe Public. You sure as heck can't trust the scam artists out there now. Incidentaly, I thought the HUDSON BAY CO. was sold to a Yank billionaire from South Carolina Mr. Jerry Zucker around 2005. One would think that a US Firm would honour vets. They were doing so when it wasn't fashionable to do so in Canada, no more than 10 years ago. You might note that the Rep for the Hudson Bay Co. has a very difficult name to pronounce. I doubt that any of his forefathers lived in Canada in the 1940's or 1950's. In fact I could wager that none of the Recent Canadian members of his family ever served in Canada's Forces. You have not seen names like that in the news covering Canadian Dead or Injured so far. NOT ONE!!!!! They only come here to reap the benefits that veterans have fought for and demand their rights.



This happens every year, and people respond to the "outrage" with abject idiocy as per above.

They say that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and I know alot of civilians have their hearts in the right places but they need to stop, take a deep breath, and think about whether or not what they are doing/saying is sensible and actually helping vets/serving members.


----------



## 1feral1

Holy crap!

What ever happened to something called common sense?

Shakes head


OWDU


----------



## geo

IMHO, it is just common sense and GOOD MANNERS to go see the local manager/supervisor BEFORE setting up shop.

No one should think he has a right to set up shop in a store or commercial establishment - because it's always been done that way.

I have always taken this position & have been well served by it.

Snafubar.... relax, breathe, live life a couple of years.... and we'll talk again


----------



## Fishbone Jones

GDawg said:
			
		

> This happens every year, and people respond to the "outrage" with abject idiocy as per above.



......and we go through all the arguments, discussions and points of view here, every year, when someone posts that a Vet was tossed from some facility.  : :boring:


----------



## Snafu-Bar

recceguy said:
			
		

> ......and we go through all the arguments, discussions and points of view here, every year, when someone posts that a Vet was tossed from some facility.  : :boring:




 It just goes to show that people haven't learned respect when it comes to these people. Vets deserve better!


Cheers.


----------



## xena

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Vets deserve better!



And since I am a vet (since they changed the definition - which I don't necessarily agree with, but...) I can say "Vets should know better" too.  Someone has said that vets should have the right to go where ever they please in this country.  Really?  If a vet breaks into your home, is that okay because he or she is a vet?

Of course not!  Private property is private property.  Retail stores, malls and office buildings are private property just as much as residential homes - get it yet?  Now, they are intended for public access which residential homes are not, but that still doesn't negate the fact that property owners have the right to restrict access - meaning they can kick you off their property for no other reason than they own it and you don't.

Vets, usually through the various RCL branches, almost always ask for permission before attempting to solicit on private property.  When they haven't, it's been the fault of the Legion branch for not organising things properly.

Now, the reason that the permission needs to be done is to stop con-artists and other Walter Mitty type characters from pretending to be something they are not, and stealing those donations from the Poppy Fund.  The vets who do this fundraising generally understand why these safeguards have to be in place.

And for what it's worth, my experience with many property management companys is that they really don't like security guards who think for themselves.  They want to employ people who will blindly do what they are told, and they "remove" guards who will question their (sometimes bordeline, sometimes overtly) illegal orders.

_Edited because I'm a lousy formatter.  D'Oh!_


----------



## Jarnhamar

I agree with recceguy

Every year it's the same story, a Vet is outraged over this or that.

All respect to the vets-my grandfather was shot by a german plane on the beaches of Normandy.

But honestly. this guy didn't have a memo or permission, apparently, to be doing what he was doing so security removed him.  It's unfortunate yes but does being a vet mean someone can skirt propriety, tresspassing etc.. rules?

What of the person was one of those "I'm deaf and mute by donating $5 for this how to speak sigh language cards I photocopied at staples you're helping me survive the mean streets of Ottawa" people?
Should a security guard let those people ignore company rules and policies because of their situation?

Like I said, respect for vets but like recceguy said, every year it's the same thing.   Hell do a search on army.ca and you'll find stories like this every year. "Vets Outaged!"


----------



## geo

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> It just goes to show that people haven't learned respect
> Cheers.


Snafu... that comment cuts both ways.
The vet who intends to set up shop should introduce himself to the local manager
(get permission to use the local washroom facilities, etc)


----------



## rwgill

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> It just goes to show that people haven't learned respect when it comes to these people. Vets deserve better!
> 
> 
> Cheers.


I will only weigh in on this as I am a business owner.

If you want to solicit anything in my business, you had better ask first!  I throw out all sorts of people, all sorts of causes because people just set up shop, without asking.  It's a respect issue with me.

That said, I am a member of the Legion and I proudly have a poppy box on my counter and gladly throw my loose change into it.


----------



## 1feral1

rwgill said:
			
		

> I will only weigh in on this as I am a business owner.
> 
> If you want to solicit anything in my business, you had better ask first!  I throw out all sorts of people, all sorts of causes because people just set up shop, without asking.  It's a respect issue with me.



So if a 85 yr old WWII Vet was selling poppies in your foyer, would you have him removed??

If I was a shop owner, and if he did not ask permission, it wouldn't matter.

To me, poppies are a Canadian icon. As far as I am concered, he's earned his permission at Dieppe or Normandy. Ortona maybe?

Now on the flip side in this PC Canada, could this have been a logistics issue, say long in advance, a letter sent out by the Legion to The Bay (and other Canadian national retailers) for example, asking permission. If this was not done, then maybe it should. Perhaps Legion Command is at fault???

Seems this entire issue has been brought up only since this new war, as in my entire life I had never heard of such nonsense. It was unheard of in the 35 yrs I spent in Canada.

There is plenty of anti-war sentiment these days, and taking it out of WWII vets, who paved the way for our future and Canada for what is is today is un-Canadian in my opinion.

OWDU


Regards,

OWDU


----------



## neilinkorea

From a business' point of view, I think it is a fairness issue.  Of course everyone thinks Vets are great and are thankful for their sacrifices.  Breast Cancer is awful too.  MS, CNIB, Make A Wish Foundation, etc are all worthy causes.  What is a company to do, set up permenant solication stations for each of these charities in their facilities?  If you say yes to one, you have to say yes to all.  So if a company decides no soliciting, that means no soliciting.  I think that in itself is a tribute to the men who served.  They fought for a way of life based on the rule of law, where the rules apply equally to all citizens and shouldn't be changed for a certain sector of society.  Our way of life may not always seem fair, but sometimes being unfair to one group ensures fairness for all others.


----------



## ENGINEERS WIFE

My 2 cents,

Permission should be asked and granted before setting up, even for selling of poppies.  Having said that, I cannot understand why any Canadian would have issue with the vets and poppies.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Fear said:
			
		

> From a business' point of view, I think it is a fairness issue.  Of course everyone thinks Vets are great and are thankful for their sacrifices.  Breast Cancer is awful too.  MS, CNIB, Make A Wish Foundation, etc are all worthy causes.  What is a company to do, set up permenant solication stations for each of these charities in their facilities?  If you say yes to one, you have to say yes to all.  So if a company decides no soliciting, that means no soliciting.  I think that in itself is a tribute to the men who served.  They fought for a way of life based on the rule of law, where the rules apply equally to all citizens and shouldn't be changed for a certain sector of society.  Our way of life may not always seem fair, but sometimes being unfair to one group ensures fairness for all others.



 The freedoms they fought for (ww1 and ww2) have dwindled greatly over time. Just look at the human rights movement and all the mess it's leaving in it's wake. It's no where NEAR as free as it used to be, and the people who fought to win those freedoms are being Disrespected now becuase of people taking those freeedoms and twisiting them into control measures that infringe on freedom.

Freedom.... the right to do whatever you want when no one is there to catch you and say your doing something illegal! 
Freedom... the right to go anywhere you please...as long as it's your own property or you have papers or permission permitting you to do so!

 Cheers.


----------



## rwgill

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> So if a 85 yr old WWII Vet was selling poppies in your foyer, would you have him removed??


I don't care who it is, ask permission first.  Thankfully this has (a vet) has not happened.  It's a small community and all of the local vets know me, but they always ask first.  They ask all of the businesses first and get to know the owners.   It's called respect and its a two way street.


----------



## neilinkorea

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> The freedoms they fought for (ww1 and ww2) have dwindled greatly over time. Just look at the human rights movement and all the mess it's leaving in it's wake. It's no where NEAR as free as it used to be, and the people who fought to win those freedoms are being Disrespected now becuase of people taking those freeedoms and twisiting them into control measures that infringe on freedom.
> 
> Freedom.... the right to do whatever you want when no one is there to catch you and say your doing something illegal!
> Freedom... the right to go anywhere you please...as long as it's your own property or you have papers or permission permitting you to do so!
> 
> Cheers.



I was careful to say rule of law, not freedom.  Freedom is such an abstract and relative term that it can never exist in a form that is agreeable to all.  That is why we have representative democracy and freedom becomes what the majority of the voting public wants it to be at any given time.  However, those who fight for it are no more entitled to it than the average citizen.


----------



## brave little soldier

Rep for the Hudson Bay Co. has a very difficult name to pronounce. I doubt that any of his forefathers lived in Canada in the 1940's or 1950's. In fact I could wager that none of the Recent Canadian members of his family ever served in Canada's Forces. You have not seen names like that in the news covering Canadian Dead or Injured so far. NOT ONE!!!!! They only come here to reap the benefits that veterans have fought for and demand their rights. 

This comment is quite strong and I do hope that members will object to it and that it will be edited.


----------



## The Bread Guy

brave little soldier said:
			
		

> "Rep for the Hudson Bay Co. has a very difficult name to pronounce. I doubt that any of his forefathers lived in Canada in the 1940's or 1950's. In fact I could wager that none of the Recent Canadian members of his family ever served in Canada's Forces. You have not seen names like that in the news covering Canadian Dead or Injured so far. NOT ONE!!!!! They only come here to reap the benefits that veterans have fought for and demand their rights. "
> 
> This comment is quite strong and I do hope that members will object to it and that it will be edited.



As the son of someone whose forefathers didn't live in Canada before WW2, and whose father and uncle were prisoners of BOTH sides in said war (as well as having served in the CF myself), I agree with BLS on this.  Thanks for the editing.


----------



## 1feral1

rwgill said:
			
		

> I don't care who it is,



You don't care eh??? Thats a pathetic comment, and demonstates a tad of arrogance.

If you punted a Vet for selling poppies at the enterance to your shop, I would never set foot in your shop again, and I'd pass that info around. Word of mouth advertising is proven. Small businesses can especially suffer with poor publicity.

Sir, you did not answer my question.

Instead of dancing around like a politican, please answer.

Thanking you in advance.

OWDU


----------



## geo

Still boils down to a matter of common courtessy.

Someone entering a shop or store to do anything - even collect funds for a charity (any charity) - should introduce himself to the store owner / manager.... what's the vet gonna do when it comes time to needing access to the "loo".... dig a hole & use a grunt pole ??? Of course not - he'll ask for the key.... so he might as well take care of the nicities in advance & have a chat with the manager.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> You don't care eh??? Thats a pathetic comment, and demonstates a tad of arrogance.
> 
> If you punted a Vet for selling poppies at the enterance to your shop, I would never set foot in your shop again, and I'd pass that info around. Word of mouth advertising is proven. Small businesses can especially suffer with poor publicity.
> 
> Sir, you did not answer my question.
> 
> Instead of dancing around like a politican, please answer.
> 
> Thanking you in advance.
> 
> OWDU



Just because an old guy shows up in a store foyer with a box of poppies does not prove that he's a vet, or that he's there as an official representative of the Royal Canadian Legion.  At what point do you consider that the store owner has no right to challenge his unannounced presence, or that the owner shouldn't expect his security staff to follow the instructions they've been issued.

Fundamentally, being there without permission is TRESPASS, and I don't know when that was included as a "freedom" that was fought for in the France and Flanders.

There's a process for gaining permission to sell things on private property that the Legion most likely usually follows.  To not have followed it does not make the store owner immediately at fault for following their own established procedures.  

Wesley, it's time you climbed off your own high horse.


----------



## 1feral1

Ok Mick, climbed off,

I am only expressing an important opinion which I feel strongly about.

I agree with the courtesy. As mentioned in my post, should not a generic letter have been sent by the respetive Legion to local businesses?

Either way, I would still not kick anyone out of my foyer of my shop ( I am sure they would ask to sell poppies), and big businesses should no better as far as I am concerned.

No PC BS from me, never has, never will.

Like I said stuff like this never happened when I lived in Canada.

Quite frankly I am ashamed that this Vet was punted from a national icon such as The Bay. They've been in business since 1670.

Regards,

OWDU

Old Vets with Legion blazers and berets with a small platform of poppies at 25C each, are normally not imposters (IMHO anyways).


----------



## SupersonicMax

OWDU:  Some people could probably go as far as disguising themselve....  Not everybody is honest.


----------



## 1feral1

Then how do we police this Max??

I can't see an old bloke with a walker and a small tray ofsome poppies to sell as a criminal. 

Selling poppies fraudulently is not a profitable crime is it. However a drug addict knocking over an old bloke, stealing his poppy donations, and running off like a coward is a crime, but again not profitable, but would make headlines just like the disrespect to this Vet in question.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Michael OLeary

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> I can't see an old bloke with a walker and a small tray ofsome poppies to sell as a criminal.



I didn't see any walker in the news stories, how about not creating extra details that only serve to invoke emotional reactions.


----------



## SupersonicMax

OWDU:  we police that by companies having people put in requests before they set up booth on their grounds.


----------



## Edward Campbell

This issue gets me into the same dilemma I have here. I don't like so called 'hate speech' but freedom of speech is worthless unless we defend that which offends us most.

The *sanctity* of property, like ‘freedom of speech’ is one of those core values upon which almost everything else rests. We have been battling ‘they’ over ‘our’ *right* to use our own property for our own benefit for thousands of years. Property and _privacy_ have been central to the rise of liberal democracy over the past 800 years. The idea that “a man’s home is his castle” and that it is a ‘safe refuge” from “all the king’s men” has been a central principle of our common law since the early 17th century.

Therefore, much as the poppy represents a very great deal to me, personally, I believe that _private_ property and the right of every person to use his own property in his own way, answering to no one, is sacrosanct. So kicking a vet off the premises – kindly and respectfully or not – is the owner’s absolute right. Nothing in any of our service and nothing in sacrifices made by my friends and family is as important.

So, Wes, you’re wrong, and rwgill is on the *right* side of this issue: standing up for his rights – which are more important than the ‘dignity’ of vets, young or old.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> This issue gets me into the same dilemma I have here. I don't like so called 'hate speech' but freedom of speech is worthless unless we defend that which offends us most.
> 
> The *sanctity* of property, like ‘freedom of speech’ is one of those core values upon which almost everything else rests. We have been battling ‘they’ over ‘our’ *right* to use our own property for our own benefit for thousands of years. Property and _privacy_ have been central to the rise of liberal democracy over the past 800 years. The idea that “a man’s home is his castle” and that it is a ‘safe refuge” from “all the king’s men” has been a central principle of our common law since the early 17th century.
> 
> Therefore, much as the poppy represents a very great deal to me, personally, I believe that _private_ property and the right of every person to use his own property in his own way, answering to no one, is sacrosanct. So kicking a vet off the premises – kindly and respectfully or not – is the owner’s absolute right. Nothing in any of our service and nothing in sacrifices made by my friends and family is as important.
> 
> So, Wes, you’re wrong, and rwgill is on the *right* side of this issue: standing up for his rights – which are more important than the ‘dignity’ of vets, young or old.




 And without the sacrifices of those Vets, we could be speaking German and have no freedoms.   

 Once again respect for these people is lost on people taking the Law and human rights approach to our current social ineptitude... enjoy your skiing down the slipperly slope..................

 Since when is a shopping center "private property" ? I thought it was a public place of commerce and that all are welcome? I give up on this topic. Respect obviously is a lost cause  :-\

Cheers.


----------



## George Wallace

Snafu-Bar

Kid....You really don't have a clue.  Stop now before you disclose it even more and remove all doubt.

And I call you kid, because a 39 year old would not be carrying on like this.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Snafu-Bar
> 
> Kid....You really don't have a clue.  Stop now before you disclose it even more and remove all doubt.
> 
> And I call you kid, because a 39 year old would not be carrying on like this.



 Say whatever you wish, I washed my hands of the thread. 

Obviously some feel differently about how people are treated versus who was in the legal right or wrong at said time.  :

Lock it or delete if you so choose.


Cheers.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> And without the sacrifices of those Vets, we could be speaking German and have no freedoms.



Nice oversimplification.  Perhaps you'd like to start a thread somewhere else detailing your alternative history theory of German victory and eventual world domination.



			
				Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Once again respect for these people is lost on people taking the Law and human rights approach to our current social ineptitude... enjoy your skiing down the slipperly slope..................



Yup, the rule of Law is one dangerous slippery slope.  We'd better crush that soon and enact a meritocracy based on primacy of military service to do as one pleases.



			
				Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Since when is a shopping center "private property" ? I thought it was a public place of commerce and that all are welcome?



No, it's private property on which the public is invited to come and execute those business transactions for which the place of business exists.  It's not a "public commons".



			
				Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> I give up on this topic.



Thank you, you weren't adding much but static and confusing insertions. 



			
				Snafu-Bar said:
			
		

> Respect obviously is a lost cause



As you have demonstrated by your avidance of fact based debate.


----------



## rwgill

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> You don't care eh??? Thats a pathetic comment, and demonstates a tad of arrogance.
> 
> If you punted a Vet for selling poppies at the enterance to your shop, I would never set foot in your shop again, and I'd pass that info around. Word of mouth advertising is proven. Small businesses can especially suffer with poor publicity.
> 
> Sir, you did not answer my question.
> 
> Instead of dancing around like a politican, please answer.
> 
> Thanking you in advance.
> 
> OWDU


Here's the deal, I would boot out a vet, if I felt that it was required in order to appease:

1.  My business interests; and,
2.  My clientele.

Since my clientele and I have many of the same interests, we have not had a problem    

OWDN, it's not arrogance, it's my business and my livelihood.  Would you crap on your own front lawn?


----------



## 1feral1

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> This issue gets me into the same dilemma I have here. I don't like so called 'hate speech' but freedom of speech is worthless unless we defend that which offends us most.
> 
> The *sanctity* of property, like ‘freedom of speech’ is one of those core values upon which almost everything else rests. We have been battling ‘they’ over ‘our’ *right* to use our own property for our own benefit for thousands of years. Property and _privacy_ have been central to the rise of liberal democracy over the past 800 years. The idea that “a man’s home is his castle” and that it is a ‘safe refuge” from “all the king’s men” has been a central principle of our common law since the early 17th century.
> 
> Therefore, much as the poppy represents a very great deal to me, personally, I believe that _private_ property and the right of every person to use his own property in his own way, answering to no one, is sacrosanct. So kicking a vet off the premises – kindly and respectfully or not – is the owner’s absolute right. Nothing in any of our service and nothing in sacrifices made by my friends and family is as important.
> 
> So, Wes, you’re wrong, and rwgill is on the *right* side of this issue: standing up for his rights – which are more important than the ‘dignity’ of vets, young or old.



I am wrong legally, but morally is another story.

I do feel that permission should be given, but  a Vet with poppies perhaps should have been a 'yes stay' but lets get permission from the manager now to geet the right tick in the box, adn be polite about it.

Punting him was wrong ethically, and IMHO.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Punting him was wrong ethically, and IMHO.



And so is vilifying the store without a fair opportunity to hear their side.


----------



## 1feral1

rwgill said:
			
		

> Here's the deal, I would boot out a vet, if I felt that it was required in order to appease:
> 
> 1.  My business interests; and,
> 2.  My clientele.
> 
> Since my clientele and I have many of the same interests, we have not had a problem
> 
> OWDN, it's not arrogance, it's my business and my livelihood.  Would you crap on your own front lawn?



No I would not, but I would let a vet sell poppies or cadets for that matter, and let other similar causes like cancer and nasty disease fund raisers do the same at the enterance to my shop.

We can agree to disagree rw.

Cheers and regards,

OWDU


----------



## George Wallace

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> I am wrong legally, but morally is another story.



Sorry Wes, but "legally" beats out "morally" in the Court of Law.

What if this old guy had been a Zut Suiter and Conscientious Objector during the "Big One" and was the ring leader of a bunch of kids (sort of like a Dickens Tale) and he was selling Poppies from a box that his gang of kids had ripped off from the Legionnaire at the Loebs Store five blocks away?


----------



## the 48th regulator

I did not want to wade in, but I could not take it anymore.

The Royal Canadian Legionary Mafia had no problems, exactly one year ago to send a cease and desist to a website claiming copyright infringement, to a website dedicated to Veterans.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/67633.0.html

However, every year we are shocked when a Veteran is asked to leave a location for distributing poppies.

How hard would it have been for them to draw up a letter, and send it to major retailers, asking for their participation?

To me it is all a ploy, as they know that it will give the legion media air play, in a time when Civilians outnumber Veterans, amongst their rank and file.

I have been to enough Legions, with medals on, only to be turned away at the door because I did not know anyone who could "sign me in".

They are behind the times, and it is high time they stop playing on the compassions of the Canadian public.

dileas

tess


----------



## rwgill

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> No I would not, but I would let a vet sell poppies or cadets for that matter, and let other similar causes like cancer and nasty disease fund raisers do the same at the enterance to my shop.
> 
> We can agree to disagree rw.
> 
> Cheers and regards,
> 
> OWDU


Most definately we can agree to disagree, and I am in no way upset with you.  

Please understand that businesses are asked, on a regular basis, for donations and other support for all sorts of fundraising ventures.  I get several phone calls a week and the number is going up (thanks to DNCL.ca).  There is a point where businesses will start saying "NO" (it's called donour fatigue).  Unfortunately, one day, it will happen to someone, like a vet, and it will start a debate.  This whole story could have happened to any charity or good cause.

I treat my vets with care, give them extra attention and pay more than my fair share of "poppy" dues.  

Cheers to you :cheers:


----------



## military granny

Well guys now its time for me to wade it in. I work for the Legion and have for the last four years, and have had a big hand in the Poppy Campaign for the last two. We never send out our Vets without name tags and identification. We also order volunteer ribbons we attach to their name tags. And I always send out letters to every business in the area letting them know when the campaign starts and asking permission to drop off Poppy trays. We do this every year and the pre Poppy season for me starts in mid September. If this gentleman's 
Legion did not ask the Bay's permission to allow the Poppy sales to take place on their property then it is not the Veteran's fault its the branch he was volunteering for.


----------



## the 48th regulator

military granny said:
			
		

> Well guys now its time for me to wade it in. I work for the Legion and have for the last four years, and have had a big hand in the Poppy Campaign for the last two. We never send out our Vets without name tags and identification. We also order volunteer ribbons we attach to their name tags. And I always send out letters to every business in the area letting them know when the campaign starts and asking permission to drop off Poppy trays. We do this every year and the pre Poppy season for me starts in mid September. If this gentleman's
> Legion did not ask the Bay's permission to allow the Poppy sales to take place on their property then it is not the Veteran's fault its the branch he was volunteering for.



Excellent view,

However, does this not exemplify what I was saying in my post?

Why no unified effort to get allt he ducks in order, and inform the retail establishment of the fact we are collecting for the poppy fund?

We can sit here and moan about respect, however, the Legion wishes to ride on the "feel good feelings" of the general public, near November Eleventh.

This battle of Vets being removed, has been going on for ages, and I can not understand why the RCL does nothing about it.  To me it's as if it is part of the plan, to get the message out about the Legion.

dileas

tess


----------



## 1feral1

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> could this have been a logistics issue, say long in advance, a letter sent out by the Legion to The Bay (and other Canadian national retailers) for example, asking permission. If this was not done, then maybe it should. Perhaps Legion Command is at fault???



Just quoting myself  ;D .

Thanks for the input Mil Granny.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## Jarnhamar

Good posts Tess.  Not very PC but accurate IMO.

This problem has been going on a while- the legion should have recognized this long ago and took steps to address it.

How would we feel about Americans coming into our stores  without permission selling American flags and bald eagle T-shirts and when challanged, answer 'well we turned the tide of ww2 you owe us'.

On a side note considering the big amount of positive support Canadians have "for the troops" I would consider selling poppies quite profitable. I've seen some pretty big collection boxes.
If people are willing to lie about their military service for free drinks and false respect it's not hard to imagine someone nabbing a box of poppies (or ordering them offline) and making serious coin from them.


----------



## Strike

The problem lies with a specific Legion branch.  Some of them are all very open and understand the responsibility they have in making sure the word gets out, the i's are dotted and t's are crossed.  Others feel that they are above this and don't bother.  I bet there are other organizations out there that pull the same stunt.  It is not every Legion branch that acts this way, but the National board has a responsibility to make sure every branch knows what the process is and follows it to the letter.  That way, when crap like this happens, the National board can step in and say, "It is common practice for us to contact businesses and ask permission to solicit.  If this has not been done it is the fault of a specific branch and not the Legion as a whole.  We are not above the law."

Of course, this is all good free press for them.   :


----------



## Blackadder1916

I keep wondering why "Hudson Bay Co" is still in the title of this thread.  Reading the article in the opening post, it is obvious that the reporter lacks the simplest of research skills and was trying to stir controversy, but then it is "The Sun" and they are not really noted for avoiding boobs, blood and bombastic disputes (even if they have to poke things with a stick to get it going).



> He was *inside the Bay office tower* at Yonge and Bloor Sts. selling poppies . . .



While the property at Bloor and Yonge still maintains the name "Hudson's Bay Centre" and is a prime location for one of The Bay's stores, it is no longer owned by HBC (or whatever that corporate entity is now called).  Though The Bay is still the major retail outlet at that location it is just but one tenant.

http://www.brookfieldproperties.com/building/detail.cfm?BID=229


> The Hudson's Bay Centre comprises a 535,000 square foot office tower at 2 Bloor Street East, The Bay department store, Marriott Hotel, apartments, condominiums and an extensive retail concourse with a variety of retail shops and services.  . . .



Of course there were no details in the story to contradict my interpretation that the veteran in question was not standing at the entrance (or elsewhere in the concourse) but was wandering the hallways of a 35 story building going from office to office soliciting.  That (to me) puts a different spin on things.  If I was paying the exorbitant rent that location commands, I would certainly want my lease to include security services that effectively prevents unauthorized soliciting from coming to my business.  If Brookfield Properties did not take steps to do that, I would have cause of action that they violated the terms of the lease.  As a side note, a building where I once worked handled a similar poppy campaign solicitation situation by notifying tenants in advance that reps from the RCL had been authorized and would be in the building on certain dates campaigning.

Of course Brookfield Properties flinched and apologized.  That is what any business does these days to limit bad publicity, though I would have to agree that they were not in the wrong.  Consider the context of the original action of their security personnel.  This is not some small storefront business in a strip mall whose owner-operator ejected a veteran,  this is a half million square foot office building with multiple tenants.

But it also could be construed that the Legion perhaps agreed with (or at least understood) their action.


> Pebble Carrier, a member of the Royal Canadian Legion, Branch 344, says members should get clearance from companies before they started campaigning.
> 
> "There are some who would go out (not representing any organization) and are just panhandling," he said.



And then maybe the veteran in question should have known better and arranged prior authorization.  Or maybe he is the proverbial old coot (sharing the views of some here) who feels that his status gives him the right to go anywhere he pleases, even on others' private property.


> Lawrence had a similar experience five years ago at the Toronto Stock Exchange.


----------



## George Wallace

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> I keep wondering why "Hudson Bay Co" is still in the title of this thread.



It isn't.  However, if you insist on quoting someone else's post and not using due diligence to change the title, then you only perpetuate the problem.  You will notice that the original post has had the title modified.  Subsequent posts were not changed.  If you insist on quoting someone's post, your post will take on their posts title.   You can edit your title all you want, prior to posting.  It is up to you.


----------



## OldSolduer

Try kicking someone who canvasses for breast cancer from in front of a business....The result won't be pretty. Yet its OK to do it to a veteran, who may have been wounded or seen friends die.


----------



## Gunnar

Polite decline letters from major corporations who don't wish to get involved in anything "controversial" don't make the press, because it doesn't involve people or principles, just an exchange of polite letters.  Typically, if they don't make the press, the public doesn't care.  And if the public doesn't care, there are no poppy sales, and no remembrance.

I understand the course of action they should have followed, and that yes, the Legion is not above the law.  But year after year, more and more, people figuratively spit in the face of those who died by finding ways to ignore those "violent" soldiers, because "they don't believe in war".  There's fewer and fewer veterans every year.  Legion branches are closing.  And the public at large is breaking faith with those who lie...Who holds the torch?

Who's tag line is it, ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas?

I think I'm just venting more than anything else here....somebody cheer me up.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Don't know if this'll cheer you up, but here goes nonetheless



			
				Gunnar said:
			
		

> .... if the public doesn't care, there are no poppy sales, and no remembrance ....


To me, no poppy sales =/= no remembrance - I think a lot of people think about the fallen (and injured) of wars,  past and present.  

Lower poppy sales=less $ available for Legion programming?  That could be a worry...




			
				Gunnar said:
			
		

> Polite decline letters from major corporations who don't wish to get involved in anything "controversial" don't make the press, because it doesn't involve people or principles, just an exchange of polite letters.  Typically, if they don't make the press, the public doesn't care  .... year after year, more and more, people figuratively spit in the face of those who died by finding ways to ignore those "violent" soldiers, because "they don't believe in war".


I feel your frustration, but all this is part of living in a democracy.  All we can do is publicly (here and elsewhere) try to give more and more of the rest of the story.




			
				Gunnar said:
			
		

> There's fewer and fewer veterans every year.


Maybe WWI and WW2 vets, but more recent vets' ranks are growing.




			
				Gunnar said:
			
		

> Legion branches are closing.


While I respect the work of EVERY member of the Legion, I think some of this is attributable to previous shortsightedness on the part of the institution as a whole re:  recruitment.  In some cases, it appears that there may be parochial politics (in Thunder Bay, for example, there are several ailing Legions in a city of ~110,000 which, from what I can see, don't want to amalgamate - this local parocialism is also why there are three Remembrance Day services in three separate locations here, too).  The few Legion branches mentioned above who don't appear to be getting advance permission for fundraising may also be hurting those following the rules.  Times change, institutions have to change with them.




			
				Gunnar said:
			
		

> And the public at large is breaking faith with those who lie...Who holds the torch?


In my opinion, those of us who choose to share the REST of the story publicly help hold the torch.  Should more do so?  Sure.  Is it zero?  Not yet, baby!




			
				Gunnar said:
			
		

> I think I'm just venting more than anything else here....somebody cheer me up.


Venting here is good - that's how more stuff gets out.

Don't know how much that helped.

Back to the thread topic - if the vet in question was dealt with politely by staff enforcing rules they're mandated to enforce, I don't think he or other vets were "disrespected".  And if the Legion he was canvassing for didn't do the initial leg-work/liaison work, it dropped the ball.


----------



## Shec

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> ... it appears that there may be parochial politics (in Thunder Bay, for example, there are several ailing Legions in a city of ~110,000 which, from what I can see, don't want to amalgamate - this local parocialism is also why there are three Remembrance Day services in three separate locations here, too).  The few Legion branches mentioned above who don't appear to be getting advance permission for fundraising may also be hurting those following the rules.  Times change, institutions have to change with them...



An astute and a prophetic observation Tony.  I think that amalgamation is a survival imperative.  I recently received a letter from my  branch in Winnipeg, which for perhaps parochial reasons of my own I have remained a member of even though I no longer live there,  (15 years ago they turned out in full force when my father passed & so I owe them my loyalty) advising that is just initiating closure discussions with RCL Dominion Command, and will be history in approx. 2 years time.


----------



## Strike

Shec said:
			
		

> An astute and a prophetic observation Tony.  I think that amalgamation is a survival imperative.  I recently received a letter from my  branch in Winnipeg, which for perhaps parochial reasons of my own I have remained a member of even though I no longer live there,  (15 years ago they turned out in full force when my father passed & so I owe them my loyalty) advising that is just initiating closure discussions with RCL Dominion Command, and will be history in approx. 2 years time.



Legion 9 in Kingston comes to mind.  A perfect example of not being able to change with the times and petty politics.


----------



## X Royal

Strike said:
			
		

> Legion 9 in Kingston comes to mind.  A perfect example of not being able to change with the times and petty politics.


An aside from the thread. This summer a Kingston legion branch (#-?) hosted our (RCR) 125th anniversary. They did a great job. Thanks to all involved.

Rick


----------



## The Bread Guy

Strike said:
			
		

> Legion 9 in Kingston comes to mind.  A perfect example of not being able to change with the times and petty politics.





			
				Shec said:
			
		

> I recently received a letter from my  branch in Winnipeg ....  advising that is just initiating closure discussions with RCL Dominion Command, and will be history in approx. 2 years time.



Interesting hearing variations on the same theme from all over...


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Interesting hearing variations on the same theme from all over...



Yet there are also good stories also,....Elora Branch 229 was doing the paperwork to sell the building and to give up their charter 2 years ago but decided to give it one last hurrah and, apparently putting in a patio area made all the difference in the world.


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

I received this from a member who didn't want to post directly, as they are involved with the Legion:

I wanted to bring to the forums attention that McDonald's Restaurants will not let Legions across Canada leave the Poppy trays in their restaurant's unless they are manned. As you probably know there isn't enough Legionairs  left to have one sit in the restaurant's all day. This has come down from McDonald's head office. I really think that the forum members need to know this because McDonald's is a world wide restaurant. The Legionairs, their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren have grown up supporting McDonald's and now at the one time a year we ask for their support in return we have been told basically only if one of your elderly members will sit here all day for the two week period of the campaign. This is a condition we can not meet.



Interesting... I wonder what the motivation is from McDonalds corporate to do this?


----------



## armyvern

Guess Vern has now eaten her last after PT breaky from Mc DODOs.

Gee, what's it worth a year for "2 X Sausage & Egg McMuffin meals, large sized, just put the 2 coffee in one cup" ... X 3 mornings a week? Guess I'll have to get used to those Timmies biscuits now.

McDonalds ... BAD on you!!


----------



## stealthylizard

I'd like to see a link to this story.


----------



## armyvern

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> I'd like to see a link to this story.



Well, it's exactly that there IS no story in the papers that caused this thread ...

Read the original post, he's posting because a member of the Legion asked him to get the news out there on his behalf.

Perhaps some paper WILL make it a story? Either way - it's neither here nor there for me ... my business is gone - it's about the only way that I can show to our Vets and the Legion ... and my displeasure with McDODOs.


----------



## fire_guy686

That's pretty low on their part. Good job Rotten Ronnie's.  :


----------



## armyvern

MAMS_933 said:
			
		

> Rotten Ronnie's.  :



Avoid this name for McDODOs ... I resemble it, but no longer want any association!!

Veronica

 >


----------



## fire_guy686

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Avoid this name for McDODOs ... I resemble it, but no longer want any association!!
> 
> Veronica
> 
> >



Fair enough. McDODO's it is.  ;D


----------



## Big Foot

Just as a note on this, I was at the Gateway McDonald's here in Oromocto today and I saw a tray of poppies there. I'm not sure if that McDonald's is breaking company policy but it was there.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

MAMS_933 said:
			
		

> That's pretty low on their part. Good job Rotten Ronnie's.  :





			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Avoid this name for McDODOs ... I resemble it, but no longer want any association!!
> 
> Veronica
> 
> >


 

Don't want to confuse the two, Vern (Ronnie) is far from being rotten  ;D


----------



## armyvern

Big Foot said:
			
		

> Just as a note on this, I was at the Gateway McDonald's here in Oromocto today and I saw a tray of poppies there. I'm not sure if that McDonald's is breaking company policy but it was there.



Big Army base located next door IS their business ... 

Would you break company policy?


----------



## SigOpDraco

The few McDonalds I've been to in Brandon always had a poppy tray unattended. Never seen a place without


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Maybe some here and there have them.  The real issue though is the McDonalds headshed making this a policy.

By all means, any smart local manager will say "uh ya how about NO".  Thats the peas; the steak is the overall official policy put down by their Snr Management.

By officially making it not ok for their chains of stores, they have no responsibility if some punks steak the money can or whatever, or whatever their reasoning was.

Personally, I'd like to see this story on the CBC national news.


----------



## Big Foot

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Big Army base located next door IS their business ...
> 
> Would you break company policy?


Good point, lol. I certainly would break company policy. And a thoroughly disgusting company policy it is.


----------



## fire_guy686

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Personally, I'd like to see this story on the CBC national news.



I'll second that. This definitely needs to get some coverage.


----------



## Hot Lips

Well not that I frequent McDODO's because I like my insides too much to do that to them...however, I have on occasion eaten there mostly egg McMuffin's and OJ...never the less...both of my grandfathers were WWII vets and members of the legion...

I swear on their graves and in their remembrance that I will never don another McDODO's door as long as I live and will spread the word by mouth...which is one of the most effective means to get things disseminated...well for us girls anyway  

Shame on them I say!!!

HL


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Interesting... I wonder what the motivation is from McDonalds corporate to do this?
[/quote]


 Probably don't want to be responsible for the boxes being on thier counters "unattended" allowing for potential thefts and other such public mischief. That being said it's a bloody sad day that a company such as McDonald's is stooping to something as profound to Canada and it's citizens as this. The blow back will be pretty ugly if in fact they have deemed this as "policy" and the store manangers actually follow through on it.

 My 2 cents worth would require some type of official responce from MC D's head office in the way of a press release of some sort to refute the claim atleast. Still shame on them and thier "policy"  :rage:

Cheers


----------



## stealthylizard

That is why I wanted to see some sort of proof that McD's HQ has done this.  I have been to 7 or 8 of them the past week from Calgary up through to Hinton, and all of them had poppies.


----------



## Kat Stevens

There won't be any blowback at all.  The two-sizes-too-small-spandex-brigade will still line up at the trough to get their 2 Big Macs, extra large fries, and quart of diet Coke to wash it down with.  People give more of a crap these days about shoving chicken mcnuggets into their kids yaps in order to avoid cooking actual food,than they do about something they're forced to endure once a year, just like tax season.  To quote the Venerable Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz; "Bloody apathetic planet."


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> The two-sizes-too-small-spandex-brigade will still line up at the trough



Bahahahahahahaha!


----------



## TheHead

I had a Bacon and Egger for breakfast and bought my poppy from McDonalds this morning before work.  Those bastards messed up my order and gave me 1 and a McGriddle instead though.

Is this maybe a secluded incident?  If I may ask what Branch of McDonalds refused to leave the tray?


----------



## BernDawg

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> There won't be any blowback at all.  The two-sizes-too-small-spandex-brigade will still line up at the trough to get their 2 Big Macs, extra large fries, and quart of diet Coke to wash it down with.  People give more of a crap these days about shoving chicken mcnuggets into their kids yaps in order to avoid cooking actual food,than they do about something they're forced to endure once a year, just like tax season.  To quote the Venerable Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz; "Bloody apathetic planet."



Don't hold back now Kat, tell us how you feel.  ;D

ps The Micky D's here in Comox has a tray out. (they did last week anyway)


----------



## Hot Lips

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> There won't be any blowback at all.  The two-sizes-too-small-spandex-brigade will still line up at the trough to get their 2 Big Macs, extra large fries, and quart of diet Coke to wash it down with.  People give more of a crap these days about shoving chicken mcnuggets into their kids yaps in order to avoid cooking actual food,than they do about something they're forced to endure once a year, just like tax season.  To quote the Venerable Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz; "Bloody apathetic planet."


 +10 Kat

...and you don't have to look to far to see them either...they have the right to be obese because someone made sure they do!!!

HL


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Both Mcdonalds I've been to this week had trays........Mike, methinks you should double check this before anyone says a little too much.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Both Mcdonalds I've been to this week had trays........Mike, methinks you should double check this before anyone says a little too much.



Maybe this should be removed from the general board until it can be verified?


----------



## the 48th regulator

The only news for Canada is here;

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/2008/11/03/7287026-sun.html

Mon, November 3, 2008

Legion takes steps to stop poppy thefts
UPDATED: 2008-11-03 01:50:18 MST


More frequent cash collection one of the new measures

By RENATO GANDIA, SUN MEDIA

Eight-year-old Brownies Shianne Lanneville and Kailyn Garner were manning a poppy booth at Sunridge Mall yesterday, trading poppies for donations to benefit the Royal Canadian Legion. (Lyle Aspinall, Sun Media) To curb last year's brazen poppy box thefts, members of the city's Royal Canadian Legion will monitor high-traffic sites more frequently during the current fundraising campaign. 

Instead of emptying donation boxes every two days, Legion members will collect donated cash every three or four hours every day they collect, said George Bittman, chairman of Calgary Poppy Fund. 

Members will also replenish boxes that are running low on poppies at high-volume locations, including Starbucks, Tim Hortons and McDonald's restaurants.


dileas

tess


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

Thanks for the reality check guys... I've gone back to the source for more info. Hopefully we'll have an update soon.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reality check guys... I've gone back to the source for more info. Hopefully we'll have an update soon.



No worries Mike, it can happen to the best of us too.


----------



## tumbling_dice

Currently working at the golden arches and I can tell you that there is no company policy as far as I know against this, and it can't just be that restaurant managers are ignoring it because operations consultants, area managers, and regional vice-presidents are in all the time to bring the great gavel of compnay policy down on our heads.  On the other hand, I was told that we weren't supposed to wear poppies on our uniforms because some people would "prefer us not to".  I said "I'm sorry they feel that way", what are they going to do, fire me for respecting Remembrance Day, come on.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I was told that we weren't supposed to wear poppies on our uniforms because some people would "prefer us not to".



 :

I sure would like to see 'those people' explain why they feel that way this coming Tuesday to a Legion full of Vets, both young and old.


----------



## tumbling_dice

I honestly don't know how people can be against it.  I can understand being against war, but being against remembering those who gave there lives in one is beyond my comprehension.  Are they against roadside memorials for car accident victims because cars are a source of pollution?


----------



## fire_guy686

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I was told that we weren't supposed to wear poppies on our uniforms because some people would "prefer us not to".



Now that is sad.   :


----------



## Marshall

Can't comment on the status of the trays around annapolis valley, NS. But if that is true then the big wigs have some nerve.

Not that I would ever eat at McDonalds anyways.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

tumbling_dice said:
			
		

> I honestly don't know how people can be against it.  I can understand being against war, but being against remembering those who gave there lives in one is beyond my comprehension.  Are they against roadside memorials for car accident victims because cars are a source of pollution?



What all of our fallen soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen have paid the ultimate price for over the years in the many conflicts is freedom.  Freedom of thought, of speech.  The freedom to live where we decide to life, to do what we want to do with our lives.  So many freedoms that are just a normal part of our lives to this day and in our 'tomorrows' and those of our children too.

I can only hope that the fallen of our nation looking down on us can be happy knowing that Canadians today have those freedoms and exercise them, even though some of our citizens make choices or have opinions that we don't necessarily understand or agree with.


----------



## tumbling_dice

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> What all of our fallen soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen have paid the ultimate price for over the years in the many conflicts is freedom.  Freedom of thought, of speech.  The freedom to live where we decide to life, to do what we want to do with our lives.  So many freedoms that are just a normal part of our lives to this day and in our 'tomorrows' and those of our children too.
> 
> I can only hope that the fallen of our nation looking down on us can be happy knowing that Canadians today have those freedoms and exercise them, even though some of our citizens make choices or have opinions that we don't necessarily understand or agree with.



+1


----------



## Mike Bobbitt

A quick update: it seems this policy has been set down by the Vancouver area McDonalds office, but may not extend into other areas. I have no first hand knowledge of the details unfortunately.


----------



## Blakey

It wont stop me from heading out and getting some breakie for the family this morning.

Sorry, but there is just not enough information here, and IMHO too quick to vilify.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Mike Bobbitt said:
			
		

> A quick update: it seems this policy has been set down by the Vancouver area McDonalds office, but may not extend into other areas. I have no first hand knowledge of the details unfortunately.



Thx for the update Mike.


----------



## military granny

OK after reading three pages on this thread I have to put in my $ 0.02 in here. We were told here also that it was a corp. memo they would not accept the poppy trays this year. Even after our Poppy Chair talked to the manager of local Mc D's. So Mike we also are finding the same problem here. I don't know if the rule is country wide and as I can see by other members messages on this thread it mustn't be. But we dont have them in any Mc D's here.


----------



## the 48th regulator

military granny said:
			
		

> OK after reading three pages on this thread I have to put in my $ 0.02 in here. We were told here also that it was a corp. memo they would not accept the poppy trays this year. Even after our Poppy Chair talked to the manager of local Mc D's. So Mike we also are finding the same problem here. I don't know if the rule is country wide and as I can see by other members messages on this thread it mustn't be. But we dont have them in any Mc D's here.



Maybe a letter to some news outlets, will get the public in the know.

dileas

tess


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

..and this is a good reason for companies to want someone to attend the boxes. Now this will probably cost Tims money of their own to make this turn into a "feel-good" story.

And don't bother with the "how could she posts?",......there are things way worse every second of everyday going on in this Country of ours.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2008/11/09/7352956-sun.html
Woman swipes poppy donation box
Alleged theft captured on surveillance video

By AEDAN HELMER, SUN MEDIA
The Ottawa Sun     

One chicken salad sandwich, small coffee with cream, and a handful of donated cash for Canadian war veterans. 
Police are investigating, and veterans are incensed, after surveillance footage from the Tim Hortons at 430 Hunt Club Rd. shows a woman walk into the coffee shop, place her order, and after a quick shoulder check, appears to casually stuff a poppy donation box into her bag while the clerk's back is turned. 

"While the young clerk is getting her food and her coffee, she's standing at the counter clearly picking up the coin box from the poppy drive display, and she puts it in her purse, pays for her food and leaves with the coin box," said Det. Brian Van Dusen. 
The suspect, believed to be in her late 40s or early 50s, was captured on video shortly after 7 p.m. on Nov. 1. 

Bob Harkness, president of the Royal Canadian Legion in Bells Corners, said Branch 593 volunteers had placed the box there less than 24 hours before it was taken.      
"It could have been a dollar in there and it could have been a hundred," said Harkness. "But it's not the amount, it's the principle of the (alleged) theft that upsets me." 

As Harkness watched the surveillance footage for the first time last week, he said he was "astonished." 
Harkness has heard nothing but angry reaction from Legion members since the news broke. 
"They're very upset, and not just the veterans," said Harkness. "I have dozens of my members that work faithfully every year to volunteer their time assisting with the poppy campaign, and they're seeing their work discarded and undermined." 

If convicted of theft under $5,000, the suspect would face a maximum of two years in jail, although a fine and restitution are more likely punishments. 
Harkness says cleaning bedpans at the Perley Rideau Veterans' Health Centre for a month or two would be an appropriate punishment if the suspect is convicted. 

He said about $75,000 to $80,000 is raised in the capital each year to directly assist area veterans.


----------



## Snafu-Bar

Part of her "sentence" should be providing the VETS with 1000 hours of community service work. Thus she may actually be truly punished. Dispicable.

 :-X


----------



## proudnurse

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ..and this is a good reason for companies to want someone to attend the boxes. Now this will probably cost Tims money of their own to make this turn into a "feel-good" story.
> 
> And don't bother with the "how could she posts?",......there are things way worse every second of everyday going on in this Country of ours.
> 
> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2008/11/09/7352956-sun.html
> Woman swipes poppy donation box
> Alleged theft captured on surveillance video
> 
> By AEDAN HELMER, SUN MEDIA
> The Ottawa Sun
> 
> One chicken salad sandwich, small coffee with cream, and a handful of donated cash for Canadian war veterans.
> Police are investigating, and veterans are incensed, after surveillance footage from the Tim Hortons at 430 Hunt Club Rd. shows a woman walk into the coffee shop, place her order, and after a quick shoulder check, appears to casually stuff a poppy donation box into her bag while the clerk's back is turned.
> 
> "While the young clerk is getting her food and her coffee, she's standing at the counter clearly picking up the coin box from the poppy drive display, and she puts it in her purse, pays for her food and leaves with the coin box," said Det. Brian Van Dusen.
> The suspect, believed to be in her late 40s or early 50s, was captured on video shortly after 7 p.m. on Nov. 1.
> 
> Bob Harkness, president of the Royal Canadian Legion in Bells Corners, said Branch 593 volunteers had placed the box there less than 24 hours before it was taken.
> "It could have been a dollar in there and it could have been a hundred," said Harkness. "But it's not the amount, it's the principle of the (alleged) theft that upsets me."
> 
> As Harkness watched the surveillance footage for the first time last week, he said he was "astonished."
> Harkness has heard nothing but angry reaction from Legion members since the news broke.
> "They're very upset, and not just the veterans," said Harkness. "I have dozens of my members that work faithfully every year to volunteer their time assisting with the poppy campaign, and they're seeing their work discarded and undermined."
> 
> If convicted of theft under $5,000, the suspect would face a maximum of two years in jail, although a fine and restitution are more likely punishments.
> Harkness says cleaning bedpans at the Perley Rideau Veterans' Health Centre for a month or two would be an appropriate punishment if the suspect is convicted.
> 
> He said about $75,000 to $80,000 is raised in the capital each year to directly assist area veterans.



I would definately agree with the fine and jail time, although I'd be afraid to leave the alleged thief alone in a Long Term Care facility, to care one on one for the veterans. Chances are, they would probably steal from them again. Not a bad idea, but I would worry about that kind of community service.


----------



## Lil_T

thanks for re-directing me Bruce.  I'm just disgusted and appalled.  I'll echo your statement *proudnurse* about forcing her to work at a long term care facility for vets.  Clearly if she has no qualms about stealing from them in public, it won't be an issue for her where she'd be more sheltered.   Just, ugh.


----------



## Blackadder1916

*'Nothing so low' as poppy box thefts*
Eastview Legion vet dismayed by loss of donations
  
Ian Shelton The Ottawa Citizen  Monday, November 10, 2008

For a war veteran who dedicates his time to helping others, there's little more disheartening than the theft of a pair of poppy boxes on the weekend before Remembrance Day.

"I've been in the Forces, and I just feel that there's nothing so low as to steal from these people," said Bert Meunier, the Eastview Legion's poppy chairman.

The Second World War veteran and long-time volunteer was dismayed to learn Saturday morning that two of the small white boxes had been stolen.

A volunteer reported to Mr. Meunier that a box had been stolen from the Beechwood Avenue Loeb store.

Mr. Meunier later learned that a clerk and a customer at the grocery store started yelling at a young man when they saw him slip a poppy box under his coat, but the suspect quickly exited the store and escaped on a white bicycle.

After a spotcheck of nearby poppy box locations, it was revealed that a box located at a Guardian pharmacy was missing as well.

He immediately reported the theft to Ottawa police, who have declined to comment on the matter.

The Legion won't know if any others are missing until all the boxes are collected today.

Mr. Meunier said it's hard to say how much money may have been taken.

"(The boxes) could have $10 in them, they could have three or four hundred dollars in them. We can't be sure," he said.

Eastview is not the only Legion to be robbed of poppy boxes this year.

Police are still searching for a woman who was filmed removing a poppy box from the counter of a Tim Hortons at the intersection of Hunt Club Road and Merivale Road on Nov. 1.

Mr. Meunier said that in a decade of volunteering for the poppy campaign, he's seen donations disappear from virtually every kind of place the boxes are typically located.

As a result, the Eastview Legion has been trying new security measures, such as collecting donation boxes more often and even taping boxes to the countertops.

He hopes that a concerted effort by police will put an end to these thefts.

"If (the police) caught some of these people and they were dealt with severely, this would stop."


----------



## OldSolduer

First Point:

Freedom of expression is something we as a military fight for. Not our freedom of expression, but our fellow Canadians. Please feel free to express yourselves by refusing to patronize McDonald's Restaurants. I never liked that clown anyways.

Second Point:

Anyone that steals the Poppy Fund box needs a good shaming. I think the stocks and pillories and rotten fruit (tomatoes) are called for.


----------



## Thompson_JM

From the Canoe.ca website:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/11/10/7360926-sun.html

Eatery bans poppies for "safety reasons"...

CALGARY -- The grandson of a Second World War veteran and proud Canadian says he feels ashamed his employer won't let him wear a Remembrance Day poppy to work. 

A server at Red Lobster at 2316 16 Ave. N.W. who wanted to remain anonymous, said he was shocked when his manager told him to remove his poppy while on the job. 

"I wear a poppy every day and I went into work and the manager came over to me and said we aren't allowed to wear a poppy and not to argue about it," he said. 

"I was completely appalled ... it's horrible -- it makes me feel ashamed." 

As someone whose grandfather served in the Second World War -- and as a sea cadets instructor himself -- he said he has issued a complaint to the restaurant about not being permitted to wear the little red sign of respect. 

"I believe it's a right as a Canadian to be able to wear it," he said. 

But the restaurant's manager Jose Torres said while he agrees wearing a poppy is an important way to show respect for those who fought for our country, the rule applies to those who handle or prepare food and was implemented as a safety precaution for guests. 

"We had an occurrence last year where one of the pins fell into food," he said. 

"It's not a corporate policy ... we are making people aware ... just because it's already occurred before." 

He said servers and cooks are asked to keep their poppy in their wallet or a safe place until after their shift is over, when they can put it back on. 

George Bittman, chairman of the Calgary Poppy Fund, said while it's disappointing to hear some people are not allowed to wear a poppy, businesses and individuals do have a right to say no to selling or wearing them. 

"This is a free country that men and women died for our right to express themselves," he said. 

"We are disappointed but also they have a right to say no ... Red Lobster probably has legitimate right to say this has happened before." 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

Well, I understand their right to do so, but at the same time, I also have the right to avoid eating in any place that follows this practice, and the right to encourage all my freinds and family to do the same.

I've seen alot of people who worry about the poppy falling off simply replace the cheap pin with a canadian flag or support the troops pin... there... problem solved....

anyways, just my .02   

Here's hopeing we all have a good remembrance day, and raise a glass for all those who didnt make it back... 
Lest we forget.

- Tommy


----------



## George Wallace

Tommy said:
			
		

> I've seen alot of people who worry about the poppy falling off simply replace the cheap pin with a canadian flag or support the troops pin... there... problem solved....
> - Tommy



Unfortunately, your RSM will probably on your case for doing that.  Your poppy should have the black felt center, not a Canadian Flag, a Red Maple Leaf, nor a Support the Troops Pin.


----------



## Jarnhamar

> George Bittman, chairman of the Calgary Poppy Fund, said while it's disappointing to hear some people are not allowed to wear a poppy, businesses and individuals do have a right to say no to selling or wearing them.



Ya it's also nice to be able to eat supper and not get a pin stuck in your throat.

Seems like a really good idea to me actually.


----------



## Northern Ranger

I support the call on not having serving staff and cooks wear them.


----------



## xxmixkexx

all i do is pass the pin back through a bit of the poppy so it is nice and secure
mine has never fallen off


----------



## Jarnhamar

Title of the story should be   * The grandson of a Second World War veteran and proud Canadian largely over reacts at a work place saftey issue*


----------



## Infanteer

Yup.


----------



## Klinkaroo

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, your RSM will probably on your case for doing that.  Your poppy should have the black felt center, not a Canadian Flag, a Red Maple Leaf, nor a Support the Troops Pin.



Well this person could because he is not working in the military when he was told to take it off.

What I do is you can take those little canada flags and break the pin off the back. The front looks virtually the same (the head is just slightly bigger but not noticable) and the back has the little piece like the name tags.


----------



## Michael OLeary

If the employee had been told to remove any other item because it was only mounted on a straight pin, it certainly wouldn't be news.  (And if it was, it would have been to praise the company for attention to detail in employee safety matters.)

Maybe it's time for the Legion to investigate a different fastener for the poppy, in order to avoid these issues.  But that might affect their profit margin on the poppy campaign, which is no doubt defended as stringently as the use of the poppy image/emblem itself.


----------



## Ex-Dragoon

The business that adopts a policy of removing a poppy for public safety reasons I have no issue with. At the same time they could approach their local Legion or veterans group and request Remembrance Day posters to be displayed, to emphasize their support.


----------



## OldTanker

I agree that this was probably a good move on the restaurant's part, and why can't the Legion produce a decent Poppy after all these years? Its a little hypocritcal to complain about people not wearing Poppies that regularly fall off your clothes. I know there are ways around this, but doesn't the number of people wearing other pins to hold on their Poppy illustrate the problem?


----------



## Long in the tooth

Are all pins covered by this?  Do the employees wear any sort of name tag (even a sticker)?  Obviously all of these must be covered.  If this restaurant is concerned about items falling into food (and I have no problem with that) then ALL measures must be in effect.  Their safety policy must be top notch as well in order to be consistent.

Show me the worker's comp stats that show this employer is one of the safest in Canada, please.


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Otto Fest said:
			
		

> Are all pins covered by this?  Do the employees wear any sort of name tag (even a sticker)?  Obviously all of these must be covered.  If this restaurant is concerned about items falling into food (and I have no problem with that) then ALL measures must be in effect.  Their safety policy must be top notch as well in order to be consistent.
> 
> Show me the worker's comp stats that show this employer is one of the safest in Canada, please.



I think I am likely going to notice say, a name tag in my soup.  The pin on the poppy is it comes today?  Perhaps, but not nearly as likely.  If I drop my DEU name tag on the floor, I can easily find it.  I've dropped sewing needles on the floor and spent several minutes trying to find them.

Also, after reading the threat title, and then the contents of the thread, I find the thread title somewhat misleading.  Poppies aren't *banned*.

~ Eatery tells employees that handle food "poppies are to be removed for customer safety reasons" ~ might be more suitable.


----------



## Thompson_JM

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, your RSM will probably on your case for doing that.  Your poppy should have the black felt center, not a Canadian Flag, a Red Maple Leaf, nor a Support the Troops Pin.



I was referring to Civies.... Not soldiers...  On my uniform I bend the pin around so the Poppy cant be removed... I just re-use that slip-on each year.....

and before anyone jumps on me for being stingy... I still end up paying about 10-20 bucks each year for a couple of poppies. 

where I have an issue is with the manager saying there is no way around it... why not try to find a better solution if you want to keep it on your shirt or jacket.  and Otto raises a point... what about name tags? are they pins? 

I just think that they could try and make it work.... rather then an all stop, no poppies allowed policy...

but thats just me... and I can see I am in the minority here apparently...


----------



## Eye In The Sky

I am not saying I don't agree that "something else can be done".  I do think they have a valid point, as I am sure the Vet's and the Legion as a whole would not want someone choking on a pin from a poppy either.

I believe they could use an alternative method to fasten the poppy.  Why, just the other day I was watching Gen (Ret'd) Hillier on the news, where he had his poppy fixed to his lapel with a little yellow "Support Our Troops" pin.

Where there is a will, there is a way.  Seems to me they've identified a problem, now just need to step off with the solution (fasten it with "solution A, B or C").


----------



## Thompson_JM

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> I am not saying I don't agree that "something else can be done".  I do think they have a valid point, as I am sure the Vet's and the Legion as a whole would not want someone choking on a pin from a poppy either.
> 
> I believe they could use an alternative method to fasten the poppy.  Why, just the other day I was watching Gen (Ret'd) Hillier on the news, where he had his poppy fixed to his lapel with a little yellow "Support Our Troops" pin.
> 
> Where there is a will, there is a way.  Seems to me they've identified a problem, now just need to step off with the solution (fasten it with "solution A, B or C").



Thats where I stand as well.... I understand the safety concerns, but I'm not impressed by the "do it, shut up, and dont fight it" approach the bosses there took with it... the fact that they were not willing to listen to an alternative proposal iritates me. hopefully people will try a different approach to it next year....


----------



## the 48th regulator

Tommy said:
			
		

> Thats where I stand as well.... I understand the safety concerns, but I'm not impressed by the "do it, shut up, and dont fight it" approach the bosses there took with it... the fact that they were not willing to listen to an alternative proposal iritates me. hopefully people will try a different approach to it next year....



All I will say, that if he needs a plastic flower to remind him, or to let other people know he is remembering, then that is a little out left field.

He is not really seen by the public, only his co-workers.  THe management has a point, as they are not banning others from wearing it.  If he has not demonstrated to the rest of the cooking staff, his respect for Vets, then he needs to learn the concept of speaking.

Sometime we can go a little overboard with this poppy concept.....

dileas

tess


----------



## Eye In The Sky

Tess,

Small point but...the employee was a server.

EITS


----------



## the 48th regulator

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Tess,
> 
> Small point but...the employee was a server.
> 
> EITS



Oops,

My bad.  Then I agree witht he stick type pin, would be honorable.  

dileas

tess


----------



## stealthylizard

In 1922, Major George Howson, a young infantry officer, formed the Disabled Society, to help disabled ex-Service men and women from the First World War. Howson suggested to the Legion that members of the Disabled Society could make poppies and the Poppy Factory was subsequently founded in Richmond in 1922. The original poppy was designed so that workers with a disability could easily assemble it and this principle remains today. Visit their website www.poppyfactory.org for more information.


----------



## Bass ackwards

It would be nice if some manufacturer of small stick-on emblems (Canadian flags, rank badges, etc) would start making a black plastic widget the size and shape of the poppy centre -but with the short pin and backing. 
Such a device could be bought separately -a one time thing- from the existing poppy. You could then buy your poppy yearly -thus supporting the veterans- but discard that growing menace-to-society known as the poppy pin, with the added benefit of never having your poppy cleaned off by a seatbelt or any of the other myriad reasons why they vanish from your jacket at the first opportunity. 
Anyone from CANEX reading this thread ? 
   
C'mon, quit with the eye-rolling you guys - it took those highly-paid geniuses in the auto-industry a couple of decades to think up the simple idea of adding small rear doors to extended cab pickups...now they all have them.
This is an idea whose time has come


----------



## stealthylizard

With the usual provisions concerning copyright:

Calgary eatery compromises on staff poppy protocol
Last Updated: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 | 11:43 AM MT CBC News 
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2008/11/11/calgary-red-lobster-poppy.html

A Calgary restaurant has come to a compromise between allowing employees to wear Remembrance Day poppies and food safety.

Staff at a Red Lobster location in northwest Calgary must use something other than a straight pin to attach the emblem to their clothing. It's a safety precaution and not a corporate policy for the chain, said manager Rob Stilborn.

A pin fell into a customer's food last year, but the patron noticed it before starting to eat, he said.

"We'll allow them to wear it if they're secured with a staple or a safety pin or something that's actually got a securing mechanism to it," he told CBC News on Monday.

An earlier newspaper report that the restaurant banned its employees from wearing poppies created quite a stir, said Stilborn.

"I've fielded calls from guests. I just got off the phone … earlier with a [Southern Alberta Institute of Technology] student who apparently, they are organizing a petition. I talked with CNN … from the United States. Yeah, it's been quite a concern."

Stilborn said his restaurant supports the Calgary Poppy Fund and has a poppy box to collect donations at the front counter.

George Pittman, chair of the Calgary Poppy Fund, admits the poppies are easy to misplace.

"I just lost two on my drive down here, from the seatbelt on our van here, and I think it's a moneymaker for the poppy fund," he said.

Pittman said Calgary raises about $2 per person — the highest rate in the country — with the poppy fund.

Calgarians donated almost $2 million to the fund last year.


----------



## Blackadder1916

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> In 1922, Major George Howson, a young infantry officer, formed the Disabled Society, to help disabled ex-Service men and women from the First World War. Howson suggested to the Legion that members of the Disabled Society could make poppies and the Poppy Factory was subsequently founded in Richmond in 1922. The original poppy was designed so that workers with a disability could easily assemble it and this principle remains today. Visit their website www.poppyfactory.org for more information.



The Poppy Factory is the primary manufacturer of "poppies" in England, but the English version is different from the Canadian poppy; they are made of paper and (especially considering the focus of this thread) do not have a bent pin like the ones over here.  On the occasion several years ago when I wore one in the UK, I had to get a separate pin to attach it.

While poppies in the UK are still actually made by groups that maintain a connection to disabled veterans, it is no longer the case in Canada.
http://www.legion.ca/Poppy/campaign_e.cfm


> The Lapel Poppy
> 
> The lapel Poppies that are worn in Canada today were first made, beginning in 1922, by disabled veterans under the sponsorship of the Department of Soldiers Civil Re-establishment. *Until 1996, Poppy material was made at the “Vetcraft” sheltered workshops run by Veterans Affairs Canada in Montreal and Toronto.* The work provided a small source of income for disabled ex-service persons and their dependants, allowing them to take an active part in maintaining the tradition of Remembrance.
> 
> When *it no longer became practical for Veterans Affairs Canada to maintain the “Vetcraft” operations*, the Legion volunteered to take on the continuing responsibility for the production of Poppies.  In so doing, Dominion Command has *awarded a production contract to a private company to produce the Poppies* but all operations are conducted under strict Legion control and oversight.


----------



## Thompson_JM

stealthylizard said:
			
		

> With the usual provisions concerning copyright:
> 
> Calgary eatery compromises on staff poppy protocol
> Last Updated: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 | 11:43 AM MT CBC News
> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2008/11/11/calgary-red-lobster-poppy.html
> 
> A Calgary restaurant has come to a compromise between allowing employees to wear Remembrance Day poppies and food safety.
> 
> Staff at a Red Lobster location in northwest Calgary must use something other than a straight pin to attach the emblem to their clothing. It's a safety precaution and not a corporate policy for the chain, said manager Rob Stilborn.
> 
> A pin fell into a customer's food last year, but the patron noticed it before starting to eat, he said.
> 
> "We'll allow them to wear it if they're secured with a staple or a safety pin or something that's actually got a securing mechanism to it," he told CBC News on Monday.
> 
> An earlier newspaper report that the restaurant banned its employees from wearing poppies created quite a stir, said Stilborn.
> 
> "I've fielded calls from guests. I just got off the phone … earlier with a [Southern Alberta Institute of Technology] student who apparently, they are organizing a petition. I talked with CNN … from the United States. Yeah, it's been quite a concern."
> 
> Stilborn said his restaurant supports the Calgary Poppy Fund and has a poppy box to collect donations at the front counter.
> 
> George Pittman, chair of the Calgary Poppy Fund, admits the poppies are easy to misplace.
> 
> "I just lost two on my drive down here, from the seatbelt on our van here, and I think it's a moneymaker for the poppy fund," he said.
> 
> Pittman said Calgary raises about $2 per person — the highest rate in the country — with the poppy fund.
> 
> Calgarians donated almost $2 million to the fund last year.



sounds like common sense prevails and all is right with the world again.... well.. at least for this problem...  ;D

Im amazed at how fast this started, and then stopped...


----------



## brihard

That seems completely reasonable to me.


----------



## 1feral1

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> Title of the story should be   * The grandson of a Second World War veteran and proud Canadian largely over reacts at a work place saftey issue*



Agreed, there is a time and place for everything including wearing of the poppy.

OWDU


----------



## teltech

Bass ackwards said:
			
		

> It would be nice if some manufacturer of small stick-on emblems (Canadian flags, rank badges, etc) would start making a black plastic widget the size and shape of the poppy centre -but with the short pin and backing.
> Such a device could be bought separately -a one time thing- from the existing poppy. You could then buy your poppy yearly -thus supporting the veterans- but discard that growing menace-to-society known as the poppy pin, with the added benefit of never having your poppy cleaned off by a seatbelt or any of the other myriad reasons why they vanish from your jacket at the first opportunity.
> Anyone from CANEX reading this thread ?
> 
> C'mon, quit with the eye-rolling you guys - it took those highly-paid geniuses in the auto-industry a couple of decades to think up the simple idea of adding small rear doors to extended cab pickups...now they all have them.
> This is an idea whose time has come



The widget you are referring to can be found at http://poppysaver.com/. I bought a couple some time ago, and it's definitely the way to go.  You still give a donation for the poppy every year, but then you simply replace the centre piece. I am not associated with the company, just a satisfied customer.


----------



## Bass ackwards

Thanks for that link, teltech.
It's too bad the RCL or even CANEX didn't get in on that, but I've got to give the company kudos for making the "widget" and also for encouraging ongoing support for the poppy fund on their website. 
Will definitely place an order.


----------



## BinRat55

Our Legion here wasn't comfortable with "unattended" boxes as well. The situation was solved using our local Cadet corps. Boxes were placed with the CO's of the corps and we went to several local businesses and sat there in shifts. One local grocery store even offered the children snacks (which was politely declined - very grownup I might add). It was quite successful.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

Man charged with stealing poppies
 http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/539108
Nov 18, 2008 03:09 PM 
Stacey Askew 
Staff Reporter

Police have arrested a man for stealing poppy donation boxes containing about $2,000.

He was taken into custody today. Yesterday, police had issued an image of a man caught on tape stealing one of the boxes. 

Police believe the suspect stole 17 boxes from retail store counters in the two weeks preceding Remembrance Day.

Police say, however, that the investigation is ongoing.

Regan Collings, 29, of no fixed address is charged with theft and a breach of probation.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse

..and it starts anew this year.


http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/mike_strobel/2009/10/23/11497396-sun.html

News Columnists / Mike Strobel
Vets fight against stupidity
It's time for Poppy Bill of Rights

By MIKE STROBEL

Last Updated: 23rd October 2009, 6:44am

Our war vets fought for our rights and freedoms. Their friends died. 

But did they fight for the right to corporate stupidity? 
I'm tired of veterans and their little boxes of poppies being barred, bounced, or generally abused. 
Someone needs to say: Poppy sales are sacrosanct. They're a right as surely as religion, free speech and allegiance to the Leafs. 

Don't mess with our vets. 

The latest skirmish comes from south Scarborough, where Royal Canadian Legion Branch 13 sells 25,000 poppies in the 10 days leading up to Remembrance Day. 

Its 200 members fan out from the branch at Kingston Rd. and Warden to man malls and place boxes in schools, liquor stores, coffee shops, banks and other businesses. 
Usually, a poppy committee member drops by first to tee it up. 

No one can remember a refusal. Until now. 
A rep popped by the Scotiabank at Cedarbrae Mall as usual but this time he was told there was no place for his poppy box. 

No reason. Two managers huddled, one shrugged and said no. The vet left, perplexed. 
Well, old soldiers may die, but they never fade away. The snub became the talk of Branch 13. 

My first call is from Al Dawson, 47. He's not a vet, but he works for Toronto Hydro and volunteers at the Legion. When the flagpole chain breaks, he swings by in a bucket truck. Or he trims the trees and hangs lights. 

And he's ticked off about the poppies. 
"There's a war going on and our troops are dying in Afghanistan -- and someone won't let these guys sell poppies? I was floored." 

Again. 

Affronts to poppies are becoming as much a part of Remembrance Day as cenotaphs and the Last Post. 

Last year, security guards punted Alan Lawrence, 85, and his poppy box from the Bay tower at Yonge and Bloor. This even though Lawrence fought the Nazis and nearly died when they sank his ship. 

"You've got to be joking," he told the guards. 
In Montreal, a CIBC branch banned poppy sales until the outrage forced a retreat. 

A spokesman said: "We took another look and we heard from our customers and we recognized we have many employees and former employees who are veterans or have veterans as members of the family." 
That's bank-ese for: "Oh, brother, we wish we hadn't messed with the vets." 
"Oh, brother" is right. 

"We would like all Canadians to wear poppies," says Bob Butt, former Black Watch and now Legion spokesman in Ottawa. 
"I kind of feel sorry for anyone who would ban them." 
Why does it keep happening? 
"You're in Toronto, right?" he says, drily. 
Yes. So what? 
"Seriously, the bigger the city, the less awareness of poppies." 
So I hustle up to Cedarbrae Mall, Markham Rd. and Lawrence, to find out what Branch 13 members think about the latest snub. 

"This is how it starts, and that really gets me," says Mike Priaulx, 64, the sergeant-at-arms of No. 13. 
"I've seen it at other branches in recent years. Stores not letting them in or boxes getting stolen. 
"Veterans may be dwindling, but this money goes to help their families, too." 

Not to mention a new generation of vets being bloodied in Afghanistan. 
Mike joined the navy at 17 and chased Soviet subs around the Atlantic. He and wife Sandra, 59, have been selling poppies for 24 years. 

Says Sandra: "The public should know that if it wasn't for these veterans selling poppies, they wouldn't have this country. I wish politicians would stand up for them." 
Amen. We need a Poppy Bill of Rights, or something. For 10 days, the Legion can sell poppies wherever the hell it wants. 

At least, corporations ought to send annual memos reminding staff that poppy sales are just peachy. So there's no misunderstanding. 
I suspect that was part of the problem at the Cedarbrae bank. Some manager just wasn't thinking. 

Whatever, there's a quick about-face. 
I drop in after talking to the vets. The brass are out, but the woman at reception makes a call, then assures me the poppies will be welcome after all. 

Just as they were welcomed after the faceoffs at the Bay tower and the Montreal CIBC. 
Happy endings. 

It's the silliness leading up to them that must stop. Hey, don't mess with our vets.


----------



## Shec

RANT WARNING

Yesterday as I walked into a suburban Ottawa mall not 10 kms. from the Tomb of The Unknown Soldier and the Memorial Chamber housing the Books of Remembrance I noticed 2 signs beside each other.  One was the standard Honour Our Veterans/Lest We Forget message and the other advised that the mall was open for business as usual on November 11, or Veteran's Appreciation Day, as it has been apparently designated by mall management.   

Might as well have a third sign reading "Except for sacrificing a minute of silence (which will have minimal impact on the bottom line)  to pay homage to those we appreciate let's keep those cash registers ringing folks.  Do your duty to stimulate the economy."

What utter hypocrisy. What an insult, especially in a time of war,  to all who have served and most particularly to those who gave their all.

I for one will *not * be buying anything on November 11 so go ahead and lock me  up for violating anti-boycott laws -  I defy you to do so.  F*****g place is getting worse than the States with their  Memorial Day blowout sales.

RANT ENDS


----------



## ajp

Lennie Gallant has a vidio/song called "a pittance in time" that reflects this issue.


----------



## vonGarvin

Shec said:
			
		

> I for one will *not * be buying anything on November 11


The only thing I will purchase on that day will be a drink, so I can toast fallen comrades.


(PS: Good Rant)


----------



## Nfld Sapper

ajp said:
			
		

> Lennie Gallant has a vidio/song called "a pittance in time" that reflects this issue.



Its actually Terry Kelly who has the song " A Pittance of Time"

EDITED TO ADD some backstory to the song...

On November 11, 1999 Terry Kelly was in a drug store in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. At 10:55 AM an announcement came over the store’s PA asking customers who would still be on the premises at 11:00 AM to give two minutes of silence in respect to the veterans who have sacrificed so much for us.


Terry was impressed with the store’s leadership role in adopting the Legion’s “two minutes of silence” initiative. He felt that the store’s contribution of educating the public to the importance of remembering was commendable.

When eleven o’clock arrived on that day, an announcement was again made asking for the “two minutes of silence” to commence. All customers, with the exception of a man who was accompanied by his young child, showed their respect.

Terry’s anger towards the father for trying to engage the store’s clerk in conversation and for setting a bad example for his child was channeled into a beautiful piece of work called, “A Pittance of Time”. Terry later recorded “A Pittance of Time” and included it on his full-length music CD, “The Power of the Dream”.


----------



## ajp

Well done and thanks for the correction.


----------



## CountDC

Old war vets I talked to didn't mind shopping on Remembrance day, they just wanted it held off until the afternoon. I used to be strongly against it until talking to them. Now I figure if they don't mind it why should I.


----------



## vonGarvin

CountDC said:
			
		

> *Old war vets* I talked to didn't mind shopping on Remembrance day, they just wanted it held off until the afternoon. I used to be strongly against it until talking to them. Now I figure if they don't mind it why should I.


What about us Young(ish) war vets?  Have you asked us?


----------



## Danjanou

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Its actually Terry Kelly who has the song " A Pittance of Time"
> 
> EDITED TO ADD some backstory to the song...
> 
> On November 11, 1999 Terry Kelly was in a drug store in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. At 10:55 AM an announcement came over the store’s PA asking customers who would still be on the premises at 11:00 AM to give two minutes of silence in respect to the veterans who have sacrificed so much for us.
> 
> 
> Terry was impressed with the store’s leadership role in adopting the Legion’s “two minutes of silence” initiative. He felt that the store’s contribution of educating the public to the importance of remembering was commendable.
> 
> When eleven o’clock arrived on that day, an announcement was again made asking for the “two minutes of silence” to commence. All customers, with the exception of a man who was accompanied by his young child, showed their respect.
> 
> Terry’s anger towards the father for trying to engage the store’s clerk in conversation and for setting a bad example for his child was channeled into a beautiful piece of work called, “A Pittance of Time”. Terry later recorded “A Pittance of Time” and included it on his full-length music CD, “The Power of the Dream”.



A link to the song and video

http://www.terry-kelly.com/pittance/pittance_en.htm#


----------



## mariomike

"Poppy pin draws Legion's fire:
Demand to stop sale 'shocks' credit union:
Dominion Command of the Royal Canadian Legion has threatened to take legal action against a Cobourg-area credit union for distributing lapel pins depicting the Highway of Heroes sign, which incorporates the image of a poppy.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/11/05/11640601-sun.html


----------



## kratz

That is no different than the poppy pins sold at the Quebec Citadel gift shop. They used to donate the money to the Legion, but the clerk mentioned they stopped doing that in 2008. So I did not buy one of the pins.


----------



## Danjanou

There are some higher up members of the RCL that need to pull their collective heads out of their fifth points of contacts. 

The pin is nice, the guy in Coburg is ex CF (RHLI), and the monies are going to the appropriate place, I know I'm a broke down old grunt and went to higher reading and riting school in Nfld  but I don't see the problem here. All this does is make the Legion look as bad as Scotia Bank and Home Dept etc. fro their respective screwing of the pooch.

Mind I'm not surprised 95% of the members of my branch are not out poppying this year and I'm advised that's normal. I relieved an 80+ Second World War Vet at Walmart and had no problem doing a couple of hours there after work. Dropped my box off at the branch after on my way home to late supper and noticed the branch full of associate and affiliate members too busy to stand at a mall for an hour, but not too busy for a couple of wobbly pops and a game of snooker. :

The Branch executive doesn't see this as a n issue mind. they're more concerned iwth the bun fiight they're having with another branch on who gets the right to put someone in a certain mall, irregardless of the fact neither branch has the warm bodies to do so. Petty people with big egos it appears are everywhere.


----------



## CountDC

Technoviking said:
			
		

> What about us Young(ish) war vets?  Have you asked us?



Nope.  At the time there were no young war vets and since talking to the old ones I realized that a lot of the changes over the years has done nothing but turn it into another holiday for a lot of people. I would even bet I could go through PMQs and find military members not attending ceremonies. As one Blackwatch vet pointed out in 87 - they told us we were fighting for freedom then why are people trying to take the freedom away?


----------



## old medic

Tim Hortons poppy box robbed by 3 teens
By DON PEAT, SUN MEDIA 
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Crime/2009/11/05/11646936-sun.html


> Halton Regional Police have nabbed three teens that robbed donations out of an Oakville, Ont., poppy box.
> 
> Around 12:30 a.m. Sunday the trio were inside a Dundas St. W. Tim Hortons when they grabbed the Royal Canadian Legion box from the counter.
> 
> One of the teens took the box into the store's washroom where they took out the cash and threw out the box, police said.
> 
> Staff found the box inside the washroom and called police.
> 
> Officers reviewed the store's surveillance tape that included audio of the teens planning the theft.
> 
> The force's high school liaison officer identified the three teens and investigators were able to make the arrest, police said.
> 
> Three 16-year-old Oakville teens are charged with theft under $5,000.
> 
> They'll appear in a Milton court Dec. 17.


----------



## CountDC

of course they will get a slap on the wrist and sent home to mommy who will be crying how her little johnny is a good boy, she doesn't understand, he must have been involved because he was scared of the other ones, etc.  I'm sure we all know the routine.


----------



## mariomike

"Legion burns cookies: Bakery told to nix poppy tribute: First it was the Highway of Heroes pins shunned and now the Royal Canadian Legion feels the baking of poppy cookies is violating the rules, too.":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2009/11/06/11653971-sun.html


----------



## CountDC

should never have given them a blanket copyright.  They should only have the right to the pins that they make and sell each year.  Next they will be sueing anyone growing poppies.


----------



## tango22a

I have in my possession a small gilt metal poppy pin that was purchased by me at a Legion booth in a mall in London ON. I have been told that I should NOT wear this pin at any time. I have been told that I should only wear the Poppy sold by the Legion, and only at the prescribed time set by the Legion.

As a member I have discovered that the Legion has become very slanted towards Associate Members and is viewed as a social club designed for their benefit.


tango22a


----------



## Danjanou

tango22a said:
			
		

> As a member I have discovered that the Legion has become very slanted towards Associate Members and is viewed as a social club designed for their benefit.
> tango22a



Yup noticed the same in my Branch and have decided as one of the few Ordinary Members there not in Sunnybrook or a long term care facilliity to do something about it. The wife said I needed a new hobby so being the new Branch shite disturber it is.

They get away with it much like our political "leaders" using public apathy and ignoranace. Most of out branch don't attend meetings and take as gospel whatever the executive/zone etc tell them because they don't know better and can't be bothered to check it out. All their policies, proceedures, protocols, by laws etc are on line and avialble and make for interesting reading.

I've discovered gaps in how we do things at my branch big enough to drive my old M-113 through.  Now to have some fun with it.  >


----------



## vonGarvin

I think it's time for the Afghan War Veterans' Association to be started, much like the Korea Vets' Association (KVA).  We'll take Red Fridays and make them ours, but we'll let anyone wear red on Friday.

[/sarcasm]


----------



## Kat Stevens

And I'll start the Cold War Germany Veterans Association;  Copyright on beer, schnapps, schnitzel, bratwurst, and 15 year old BMWs and Jettas.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Old Sweat and I have already formed the NDHQ Veterans' Association.

We have our own motto: *"If the boss call, get his name!"* and our own salute, too:






.

We want the rights to confusion, idleness and coffee breaks and we want a new decoration for paper cuts suffered in the line of duty.


----------



## Danjanou

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> And I'll start the Cold War Germany Veterans Association;  Copyright on beer, schnapps, schnitzel, bratwurst, and 15 year old BMWs and Jettas.



I'm in can we make the Branch look like Tiffs?


----------



## the 48th regulator

That's it,

I am Starting the "Military under the Liberals, so we were a broke Military" Veteran.

I am going to muscle in on all of the Legions, and shake them down....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0avctOqaZgA

dileas

tess


----------



## 1feral1

CountDC said:
			
		

> should never have given them a blanket copyright.  They should only have the right to the pins that they make and sell each year.  Next they will be sueing anyone growing poppies.



From a 50 yr old Veteran - me!

Canada is not the only country to use the poppy as a national symbol of remembering war dead, as we use them here, also the UK and in NZ. 

If the Canadian Legion poppy design is in question, and thats the copyright, well change the design to be used by others.

If they think they own the overall 'poppy' symbol, well their wrong and their arrogance shines through.

I say shame on the RCL for having such a snotty nosed pi$$ poor attitude.

Afterall its about awareness and rememberance isn't it? 

Anyone who goes out of their way to remember or promote awareness of veterans is doing the right thing. 

OWDU
Iraq Vet 2006-2007


----------



## 1feral1

Here is the Aussie poppy, and another pic of the memorial wall at Canberra's Australian War Memorial.

Regards,

OWDU


----------



## Danjanou

Ok numerous jokes aside, the common thread here is that a once proud organization the Royal Canadian Legion has turned into some petty, spiteful, egotistical clique of wannabes, and hangers on who’ve adorned themselves with titles.  

The warriors ain’t there anymore. The Korea Vets Association, the Honk Kong Vets, the NATO Vets, The Peacekeepers Vets, the ANAF etc making a nice rainbow of blazers on Nov 11th. Adding to the splinter groups isn’t the answer.

The Legion was built by us, soldiers, sailors, airmen, warriors. Many of us have blood relations as well as Regimental (Corps) Family, who after Vimy, the Somme, Ypres etc decided to build an organization that would allow something good to come from all that, and help them take care of their own.  Later their sons/daughters would join after Dieppe, Ortona, Juno, Breskin, for the same reason.

Many, most, of them are gone and us that followed for whatever reasons didn’t join. Hell I was eligible for both Ordinary Membership and/or Associate Membership circa 1977 and didn’t join until 2008. End result the relatives and then others with no connections tot he miltitary ended up running the show and look what they’ve done with it. They never served; we did, the traditions, ceremonies, and the reasoning behind them often mean nothing to them, passed on by rote, out, minimized, bastardized and/or forgotten. The reason for the organization appears to be gone, although they may pay lip service to it.

It’s ours, we the collective group that at one time stood uncomfortable in new boots and uniform far away from home and perhaps a little scared at what was to come. We that collectively wrote a blank cheque to our Government for anything up to and including our lives. We that gave a few years, or many years, or in some cases so much more.

We can bitch and whine about it, hey that’s a soldiers prerogative, or we can take it back. Join or rejoin, not like they can refuse you membership is it. We do that and someday that little clique that thinks being a member involves just paying $45.00 a year and sitting around drinking cheap beer and playing cards will never know what hit them. We’ll be running the place again from the smallest branch up to the top and crap like this won’t be tolerated.


----------



## mellian

Is there a safety pin version of the Poppy anywhere? Every time I wear one, I tend to injure myself with it in some way like stabbing myself on the chest, scratching my arms while taking off my coat or purse/backpack, etc.


----------



## PMedMoe

mellian said:
			
		

> Is there a safety pin version of the Poppy anywhere? Every time I wear one, I tend to injure myself with it in some way like stabbing myself on the chest, scratching my arms while taking off my coat or purse/backpack, etc.



Take an eraser off the end of a pencil and put it on the end of the pin.  Or, snip off the pointy and and then bend it so it stays on.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Use the back from an earring.


----------



## PMedMoe

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Use the back from an earring.



Excellent idea!


----------



## Bass ackwards

mellian said:
			
		

> Is there a safety pin version of the Poppy anywhere? Every time I wear one, I tend to injure myself with it in some way like stabbing myself on the chest, scratching my arms while taking off my coat or purse/backpack, etc.



Go here:
http://poppysaver.com/home.htm

This place was mentioned to me earlier in this thread, actually. I've since ordered from there. They don't take credit cards or use paypal. My cheque and their poppysavers passed each other in the mail (it seemed like a very old fashioned way to do business - but I kinda like it).


----------



## PMedMoe

That's the one I was thinking about.  Use the pin off the back of an old (or broken) DEU name tag.  Works great, and it's free.


----------



## observor 69

In an email from a friend and on Snopes :

Back in September, on the first day of school, Martha Cothren, a social studies teacher at Robinson High School, did something not to be forgotten. On the first day of school, with the permission of the school superintendent, the principal and the building supervisor, she removed all of the desks out of her classroom. 

When the first period kids entered the room they discovered that there were no desks. 

'Ms.. Cothren, where're our desks?' 

She replied, 'You can't have a desk until you tell me how you earn the right to sit at a desk.' 

They thought, 'Well, maybe it's our grades.' 

'No,' she said. 

'Maybe it's our behaviour.' 

She told them, 'No, it's not even your behaviour.' 

And so, they came and went, the first period, second period, third period. Still no desks in the classroom. 

By early afternoon television news crews had started gathering in Ms. Cothren's classroom to report about this crazy teacher who had taken all the desks out of her room. 

The final period of the day came and as the puzzled students found seats on the floor of the deskless classroom, Martha Cothren said, 'Throughout the day no one has been able to tell me just what he/she has done to earn the right to sit at the desks that are ordinarily found in this classroom. Now I am going to tell you.' 

At this point, Martha Cothren went over to the door of her classroom and opened it. 

Twenty-seven (27) War Veterans, all in uniforms, walked into that classroom, each one carrying a school desk. The Vets began placing the school desks in rows, and then they would walk over and stand alongside the wall... By the time the last soldier had set the final desk in place those kids started to understand, perhaps for the first time in their lives, just how the right to sit at those desks had been earned.. 

Martha said, 'You didn't earn the right to sit at these desks. These heroes did it for you. They placed the desks here for you. Now, it's up to you to sit in them. It is your responsibility to learn, to be good students, to be good citizens. They paid the price so that you could have the freedom to get an education. 'Don't ever forget it.' 


Please consider passing this along so others won't forget that the freedoms we have in this great country were earned by War Veterans.  On November 11th, please remember to pause for a minute:

    For those who paid the supreme price "They shall grow not old as we who are left grow old.  
    Age shall not weary them nor the years condemn.                 
    At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, We Will Remember Them".


----------



## muskrat89

> As a member I have discovered that the Legion has become very slanted towards Associate Members and is viewed as a social club designed for their benefit.



Guys - I am not going to slag the Legion, and I was a member and still believe that they have some good branches and do some good work. That being said, if there is no alternative veterans' organization in your area, you may be able to create one. Quite a few years ago, frustrated by what many of you are describing, a few of us in our community contacted the ANAVETS. I am proud to say we were New Brunswick's first unit, and I was a Charter member (and first president). The Unit focuses on community service and assisting/recognizing veterans - not bunfights, not bar sales. I think that most members enjoy belonging and many continue to hold memberships in both organizations.


----------



## CountDC

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Here is the Aussie poppy, and another pic of the memorial wall at Canberra's Australian War Memorial.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> OWDU



Can we trade?  Looks a lot better than ours.


----------



## Blackadder1916

The “Poppy” is not the only floral symbol of Remembrance for some Canadians – well, they (if 60 years or older) weren’t Canadians when that alternate practice was more widespread.

The blue “Forget-Me-Not” was worn in Newfoundland on it’s “day of commemoration”, July 1, Memorial Day.  November 11 was (back then in my youth) more commonly known as “Armistice Day”; however as we had already joined Canada, it was being equally celebrated as mainland ideas were being adopted.  I had not thought of it in many years but was reminded of forget-me-nots (ironically, I had forgotten) during a recent phone conversation with family back home.  Others, however, had not forgotten.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/litehouseman/500216623 (photo of  forget-me-nots at link)


> Taken at Bowering Park. While forget-me-nots grow wild almost everywhere, I can't think of anything more symbolic of Newfoundland in early summer; particularly as it relates to the tragic losses suffered by the Royal Newfoundland Regiment on July 1st, 1916 during the first day of the Battle of the Somme. Interestingly, *the forget-me-not was adopted as a flower of rememberance by Newfoundlanders during the Great War some time before the allies had considered the red poppies associated with McCrae's "In Flanders Fields". The Forget-Me-Not is still worn on Newfoundland's Memorial Day which occurs on July 1st*.



A MUN graduate at Beaumont Hamel November 8, 1997


> The ceremony of remembrance was followed by the dedication of the Newfoundland Beaumont Hamel Memorial Park as a Canadian National Historic site, the first one outside Canada.  . . . .   *A poignant touch was added by the members of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment Band when they each took their forget-me-not flowers from their hats and placed them on the Danger Tree,* a replica of the stump of a tree that marked the beginning of No Man's Land, a marker few men reached that first of July.
> 
> Though not a Newfoundlander, I had two reasons to be at Beaumont Hamel: first, to remember soldiers from my part of the world, the Second Battalion South Wales Borderers, who also suffered heavy casualties in the first wave; and second, I graduated from Memorial University in 1974 and hope I made my own small contribution to Newfoundland and as a representative of MUN by wearing a Memorial University tie for the ceremony.
> 
> This was a day I shall never forget. There were many very proud Newfoundlanders present (and a Welshman) this day, on a small piece of land in Northern France that will always be part of Newfoundland!


_Note: Memorial University was originally founded as a living memorial to those Newfoundlanders who gave their lives in service in the First World War._

And a colour party from The Royal Canadian Legion Zone Europe was at Beaumont Hamel in 2001 {as they have been on many Memorial Days}.
http://www.rcl-europe.org/Beaumont_Hamel/B_H.html


> This year's ceremony was special in a number of ways. For several years, since Steve Austin was promoted in the Veteran Affairs Organization and moved back to Canada the Beaumont-Hamel Park had no director. Consequently the yearly ceremony to put it bluntly was in a chaotic mess. This year a new Director Ms. Arlene King who along with Steve's assistance finally got the ceremony back on track. In addition following the Remembrance Ceremony a new pavilion was opened on the grounds dedicated to the memory of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment. Finally it was a welcome relief that our Legion Colour Party was once again made to feel as an appreciated part of the ceremony.
> 
> Also in attendance at this years ceremony was an Honour Guard from the 1st Royal Newfoundland Regiment accompanied by the Regimental Band. The Bandmaster came and talked to us and *presented every member of the Colour Party with a forget-me-not flower. The forget-me-not is the flower that Newfoundlanders wore at Ceremony of Remembrance prior to joining the rest of Canada and adopting the poppy.*



And this from the Lt -Gov of Nfld  (and HCol - at that time Ed Roberts) - an excerpt from a Speech by His Honour, Honorary Colonel of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment, at a Dinner tendered to the Regiment by the Government of Canada at Espace Gobelins, Roubaix, France 29 June 2006


> In the years after the War, we developed our own traditions, our own ways of remembering our heroes. The Regiment pays honour to the Ode to Newfoundland, our anthem, in the same way as we today honour O Canada, the anthem of our new country. We stand to attention, and the officers salute. We shall do so on Saturday, at Beaumont Hamel.
> 
> *And we shall be wearing our Forget-Me-Nots. The little flower has been worn on Memorial Day since the first Commemoration Day in St. Johns, on 1 July 1917 - a year, to the day, after Beaumont Hamel. It is a small flower, but a mighty symbol of those whom we still remember - those we still honour. Every Newfoundlander and Labradorian at Beaumont Hamel will be wearing a Forget-Me-Not on Saturday: those of us who will be in uniform, will be wearing one too. And we hope that everybody at the Caribou Memorial will also do so.*
> 
> July 1st is Canadas National Day, the day when our country was formed officially in 1867. But to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, July 1st is also Memorial Day, because it is the anniversary of Beaumont Hamel. In the morning, we gather at our National War Memorial - in St. Johns, overlooking the beach where Sir Humphrey Gilbert claimed Newfoundland in behalf of the first Queen Elizabeth in 1583 - to lay our wreaths, and play the Last Post. We still fly the Union Jack there that morning.
> 
> In the afternoon, we celebrate Canada as Canadians. There is no one of us who is not proud to be a Canadian, but our pride in Newfoundland and Labrador stands equal with our pride in Canada. Saluting our Ode and wearing the Forget-Me-Not doesnt detract in one iota from the pride with which we wear uniforms with Canada on our shoulder flashes, or the respect with which we salute when O Canada is played. Im old enough to be able to say with truth that I was born a Newfoundlander, but I also say with equal truth and force that I am a Canadian. Each loyalty strengthens the other: there is no conflict between them.


----------



## Edward Campbell

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> ...
> November 11 was (back then in my youth) more commonly known as “Armistice Day”




It was when I was a youngster, out West, too. I rather miss that name - an old timer's nostalgia, I suppose - even though I think Remembrance Day is more properly descriptive.


----------



## the 48th regulator

> Poppy-wearing is not simple
> 
> 
> By Janice Kennedy, The Ottawa CitizenNovember 8, 2009
> 
> 
> Janice Kennedy
> 
> Janice Kennedy
> Photograph by: The Ottawa Citizen, The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> Canadians across the spectrum subscribe enthusiastically to the sustaining mythology of the poppy, Remembrance Day and our veterans.
> 
> (Especially in recent years. A generation ago, veterans were not always so unconditionally embraced, particularly by our institutions -- not when there were still so many of them around, with their array of postwar social needs and complex challenges.) Today's poppy is our "Lest We Forget" token, a bracing national symbol that allows all Canadians to pay necessary respect in a uniformly inoffensive way. United for one brief period each year by this great Canadian cultural leveller, poppy-wearers cross boundaries of age, class, politics and levels of cool.
> 
> Most of us wouldn't dream of stepping out on a November day without that little crimson flower pinned to our lapels.
> 
> But it's become more complicated lately. Where once the poppy was an unencumbered way to honour what we rightly call "the greatest generation," today it's all tied up in the ongoing moral dilemma that is Afghanistan. How can you pay tribute to those who sacrificed more than 60 years ago and not pay tribute to those who are doing the same today? But how can you do that while maintaining your opposition to a mission you believe ill-advised, futile and doomed? In short, poppy-wearing is not so simple any more.
> 
> Part of the problem may lie in our ongoing love affair with war, which, for all its tragedy, has always been big, bold, breathtaking and seductive. A broad canvas filled with portraits of kings, madmen and pawns, with clashing ideas and strategic power plays, war has enough human drama to fill a million stages a million times over.
> 
> Millennia after Homer waxed poetic about Greeks and Trojans battering one another, millennia after a biblical David and Goliath provided the timeless metaphor for transcendent struggle, millennia after Sun Tzu dissected the chess game that moves armies, war still fascinates.
> 
> Similarly, the human fallout of war -- the emotional and physical devastation of individuals, the wounds inflicted on families and communities, the grief that refuses to loosen its vise-like grip on the human heart -- this, too, has its undying appeal.
> 
> Because it's drama. And drama is what turns our cranks, thanks to an animating psychology that is partly perverse, partly empathetic.
> 
> We humans love to revel in second-hand emotion (especially at a remove, without the firsthand pain) because it speaks to our elemental instincts.
> 
> From Homer's portrait of inconsolable grief (Achilles mourning Patroclus), to the news pictures and stories of the latest Canadian military death in Afghanistan (with totemic images that have evolved into sad clichés), the emotional rituals of war's fallout are part of humanity's cultural core.
> 
> That explains, for instance, the regular turnout of people on Ontario overpasses, waving flags and wearing red, to salute funereal processions passing below. It also explains why we wear poppies in November and gather in sombre communities across the nation at the eleventh hour of the eleventh day.
> 
> The difficulty is, a line exists between legitimately honouring sacrifice, and bathing in second-hand emotion -- but it's awfully fine. And between paying proper tribute, and endorsing the indisputable evil that is war, the line is finer still.
> 
> How do I wear a poppy that recognizes the terrible sacrifice and even heroism of Second World War veterans, when so many poppies today recognize the more recent deaths in Afghanistan -- deaths I grieve, like all Canadians, but that I believe were a tragic waste? How can I wear a poppy that acknowledges, among others, Lieut. Justin Boyes, the 26-year-old who was killed last month? His widow has suggested that lack of public support for the mission is losing the war for Canadian soldiers, and I am indeed one of those non-supporters. And yet I feel for her, for her three-year-old son, and for the loss of her partner's life in a hopeless venture.
> 
> Would she be offended by my poppy, or by the poppies of all those who do not believe in war, even as they humbly acknowledge the altruism that can operate at its heart? I was struck recently by the story of Master Corp. Jody Mitic, an incredibly courageous young man who had both legs blown off almost three years ago by a Taliban bomb, and who has come back from that catastrophic setback to participate in races - churning up a fury of roadway on two artificial legs -- and raise funds for good causes. An amazing fellow, no question.
> 
> Except that he wants to get back into action in Afghanistan, like many other injured soldiers who have been interviewed. And he wants to return to his old job as a sniper. A sniper. This man who has been through so much wants to raise his rifle again to inflict the pain and suffering he himself has known, killing or maiming another human being (albeit one neatly relabelled "the enemy").
> 
> So how can I get my poppy to pay tribute to one side of Mitic, but not the other? There is nothing noble, or ennobling, about war, even if there is sometimes nobility in the hearts of those who wage it. Our poppies should acknowledge that. Remembrance Day should solemnly memorialize the sacrifices -- while recognizing the terrible failure that war represents.
> 
> There is a profound distinction between the two. And sometimes the small red flowers on our lapels tell only half the story.
> 
> Janice Kennedy writes here on Sundays.
> 
> E-mail: 4janicekennedy@gmail.com
> © Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Janice Kennedy
> 
> 
> 
> Janice Kennedy
> Photograph by: The Ottawa Citizen, The Ottawa Citizen



dileas

tess


----------



## Edward Campbell

Predictably, Ms Kennedy, who thinks only a bit less than most of her fellow citizens, misses the point.

Remembrance Day and the poppy have *nothing* whatsoever to do with war - any war, or politics. They are wholly and completely about *sacrifice*. That most people cannot quite understand that neither surprises nor dismays me.

Those who elect, for their own political purposes, to eschew the poppy find their _protest_ lost in the deep, wide sea of bovine indifference that is Canada. Those who will not wear a poppy because they reject the *sacrifice* are less than human.


----------



## Rheostatic

Sure, sacrifice... made in war. Anyway I found it to be a thoughtful article, and anyone who actually takes the time to put pen to paper on the subject of remembrance probably thinks a bit more than the average citizen.


----------



## helpup

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Predictably, Ms Kennedy, who thinks only a bit less than most of her fellow citizens, misses the point.
> 
> Remembrance Day and the poppy have *nothing* whatsoever to do with war - any war, or politics. They are wholly and completely about *sacrifice*. That most people cannot quite understand that neither surprises nor dismays me.
> 
> Those who elect, for their own political purposes, to eschew the poppy find their _protest_ lost in the deep, wide sea of bovine indifference that is Canada. Those who will not wear a poppy because they reject the *sacrifice* are less than human.



Personally, I think less on sacrifice when it comes to the poppy.  The red poppy ( the only version I ever care to see regardless of a green center or black) reflects less on sacrifice and or war but on remembering those who have gone before us and those who go today in Afghanistan or any tour.  I do not use the poppy nor was it intended to honour those who serve but instead the poppy is a token of rememberance to those serving thier country who lost thier lives. 

If you want to tie that to a sacrifice then fine, I can see that, but I dont like the word sacrifice in this sense.  ( nor in the medal's name but that is for another thread )  Those who served thier country and died for it did not do it with sacrifice in mind.  Thier reasons are many varied and wholey thier own to justify to no one else but themselves.............   The poppy is our chance to wear a symbol that shows we as a country will pause and reflect, respect and honour those of "our" brethren who have paid the ultimate price for thier country.  The reasons matter not, agreeing with the conflict does not matter either in my opinion.  But to dismiss wearing a poppy this time of year as a way of stating your oposition to a conflict you may not believe in,,,,,,,,  Is doing a huge diservice to those who have gone out and given thier lives.   There are many a Canadian on the 401 belt from Trenton to Toronto who do not believe in the war.... Yet they show up for each final journey of the fallen.  That is in it's own way what Rememberance day is suppose to be for myself........... 

And yes it was orriginally for the Great War and morphed into a collective day to honour the fallen.  I for one agree with that and think we are better for it.


----------



## Edward Campbell

This is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s _Globe and Mail_

 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/sacrifices-made-for-humanity/article1358730/


> Globe editorial:
> *Sacrifices made for humanity*
> 
> *It is hopeful that more Canadians are putting aside time on Nov. 11 to honour our veterans and the freedoms they fought for*
> 
> Wednesday, Nov. 11, 2009
> 
> What do you see on the faces of the aging Canadian war veterans who stand at attention, bright red poppies on their lapels, while the Last Post is played just before 11 a.m. on Remembrance Day each year? Do you see fear? No. These are the men and women who could have hidden, or feigned an injury, or simply have refused to fight, but who instead went willingly to the trenches in both World Wars, the Korean War and in recent conflicts such as Afghanistan. Do you see anger or bitterness? No. They are men and women who lived through horrors beyond imagining and would do it again. Do you see the preening vanity of people seeking their 15 minutes of fame? No. They would be there, even if no one else was.
> 
> What you see is remembrance: the silent, communal and defiant act of refusing to consign to oblivion the memory of the irreversible sacrifices made by veterans; sacrifices made not for money, or for fame, or for personal advancement, but in the name of freedom and for the well-being of humankind.
> 
> Canada is at a crossroads. There is just one Canadian veteran of the First World War still alive, and those who fought in the Second World War are leaving us every day. The vital act of remembrance will soon be left in the hands of Canadians who have nothing to remember; who, because of the efforts of a dying generation, have not been required to put their lives on hold and their futures into doubt.
> 
> And yet participation at Canadian Remembrance Day ceremonies is increasing. Parents are taking their children out of school to attend them; alternatively, schools are bringing veterans into classrooms to share their stories. Memory projects, such as those launched by the Historica-Dominion Institute, are on the rise. Parliament has passed a motion urging Canadians to observe two minutes of silence today instead of one, a move that has been well received, and 70 per cent of respondents to a recent poll said they would support a law mandating the ritual observance of Remembrance Day.
> 
> The sacrifices of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan are undoubtedly a cause of this. Perhaps another one is that sometimes our world seems lacking in the kind of selfless heroes we see in the faces of our veterans. Whatever it is, it is hopeful that more Canadians are putting aside time on Nov. 11 to honour our veterans and the freedoms they fought for. Hopeful, and fitting.




*Sacrifice* is a _relative_ word; there are degrees of sacrifice; what we honour, just for a few minutes, on Remembrance Day, is the *supreme sacrifice* made by 100,000+ Canadians over the last 100+ years, covering three centuries.

As I have said elsewhere, 11 November is not *Veterans’ Day*; we can and do honour veterans separately. Veterans started the *Remembrance Day* tradition because they understood that something special was required to honour those who did not survive our wars.  It (Remembrance day) is not about politics; it's not _nuanced_; it's all about those who "grow not old as we who are left grow old."

Ms Kennedy, and anyone else, cannot "read" anything else into it because there is nothing else: just sacrifice - which she can honour or not, period. She doesn't have any moral or intellectual _room_ to slice and dice her political views on our cenotaphs.


----------



## Braver.Stronger.Smarter.

Perhaps this is not the correct place to post this question, if not, Mods please direct me elsewhere.

As I was watching the Remembrance Day ceremony on Global this morning, I noticed that there were several people wearing two poppies. From what I could see, they appeared to be the same poppies, just two of them. Does anyone know of the reason for this?


----------



## mariomike

"Would-be poppy-proceeds robber thwarted: Three men, including a veteran in his 80s, thwarted a would-be armed robber at an east Toronto Royal Canadian Legion who attempted to take the $10,000 in proceeds from their poppy drive.":
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20091112/veterans_robbery_091112/20091112/?hub=TorontoNewHome

"Poppy-box thief caught on video: Video provided by London police shows a suspect removing the poppy box from the Superstore on Oxford Street in London.":
http://video.lfpress.ca/video/featured/london-and-region/5828787001/poppy-box-thief-caught-on-video/48483779001


----------



## 1feral1

CountDC said:
			
		

> Can we trade?  Looks a lot better than ours.



Yes we can, PM me your address, and I'll mail one out to you.

Sorry for my tardiness.

Cheers,

Wes


----------



## dapaterson

-Jules- said:
			
		

> Perhaps this is not the correct place to post this question, if not, Mods please direct me elsewhere.
> 
> As I was watching the Remembrance Day ceremony on Global this morning, I noticed that there were several people wearing two poppies. From what I could see, they appeared to be the same poppies, just two of them. Does anyone know of the reason for this?



HRH and his Consort were wearing both Canadian and UK pattern poppies.


----------



## scas

From CTV news:

The men at the Robinson Avenue Legion branch, located on the Danforth in the city's east end, told police that an unknown man walked in with a gun at around noon Thursday while they were counting the money from their sales. 

"We were just about to count the money and there were four of us in the boardroom over there," John Dietsch, 84, told reporters as a half-empty glass of beer sat in front of him. 

Dietsch said that at first, he didn't see what appeared to be a handgun. "I said to the fella, 'What are you here for?' and he said, 'Give me all your bills,' and at that point, I went for his arm with the gun,' and we struggled and I went backwards and I was on the ground," he said. 

"My other buddy there, he wrestled him on the ground. And then he chased him out to the street line, and he had no vehicle, so he just kept running up the street." 

The would-be robber left without any money. 

Asked why he reacted the way he did, Dietsch, who served with the Navy in the North Atlantic in the Second World War protecting convoys, said: "Because of the time we served in the military, and the fact we'd been out all last week collecting money with the poppies that made me think, 'You're not getting away with this.'" 

However, "In retrospect, the more I think of it, I was stupid," he said. 

"The police are always saying, 'You're getting held up, let them take the money. The money isn't as important as your life." 

Two of the men who helped thwart the robbery weren't veterans but poppy campaign volunteers in their 60s. 

The incident happened a day after thousands of Canadians gathered across the Greater Toronto Area and across Canada for Remembrance Day ceremonies honouring the country's fallen military heroes. 

"I can't believe it, especially coming into the Legion," Dietsch said. 

Investigators with 41 Division say they have a description of the suspect and are investigating the incident. 

The suspect is described as a light-skinned black male, wearing a dark toque and dark clothing. He had a beard.


----------



## George Wallace

scas


See Reply #286 on: Today at 16:10:59 »  above.


----------



## vonGarvin

From here



> When the gunman lunged for the cash, Dietsch grabbed his arm, pushing away the gun. They struggled and Dietsch fell to the floor. The startled attacker, who looked to be in his 20s, ran to the door empty-handed.



He's still got punch!  


(EDIT: Mods, I apologise for starting that thread on this.  I felt that the incident was unique enough to be on its own, apart from this thread.  I wasn't going for MPs.  Honest!  :nod:


----------



## CountDC

interesting side point as shopping had been brought up prior.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/091112/canada/canada_ottawa_asian_market

Ottawa does make sure stores adhere to closing on Remembrance Day.


----------



## PMedMoe

CountDC said:
			
		

> interesting side point as shopping had been brought up prior.
> 
> http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/091112/canada/canada_ottawa_asian_market
> 
> Ottawa does make sure stores adhere to closing on Remembrance Day.



And on that note:

*Food store apologizes for Remembrance Day opening*

T&T Supermarket, which was among some 40 businesses fined for opening before noon on Remembrance Day , says *it will donate all profits it made on the morning of Nov. 11 to the Royal Canadian Legion's Poppy Fund.*

More on link

I wonder if any of the other 39 businesses fined will make the same offer?


----------



## FormerHorseGuard

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/canada/2009/11/12/11728736.html
This story made me smile today as I read it on the bus to Uplands to work. I guess some vets are still not scared of a weapon and remember the past when they  were super heros and younger men. These gentleman still have the right stuff and I think that is great, Well done gentleman,  as for the other guy, I hope you are deeply ashamed of yourself and  so is your mom.


----------



## mariomike

"Poppy profits pinched: A man was caught on video swiping a poppy donation box from a west-end Tim Hortons before walking off with his coffee and the cash on Remembrance Day. ":
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/11/14/11743156-sun.html


----------



## mariomike

"Tax on poppies pure poppycock":
 http://www.torontosun.com/comment/editorial/2009/11/16/11757691-sun.html


----------



## dapaterson

As a registered charity, the Legion already recoups 50% of the GST it pays through GST rebates.  But of course, the Sun never lets the facts get i nthe way of a good story.


----------



## Gronk

I realize this is an old thread but, I would like to point out that the Legion is not a registered charity - it is a not for profit organization (big difference). It does not receive GST rebates. The Poppy Fund is not a registered charity either (hence no receipts for tax purposes) but a fund, held in trust, to help veterans and their dependants in need. All money donated to the Poppy Fund goes to helping veterans, not your local branch.


----------



## The Bread Guy

> Government sources say veterans' groups will receive a full tax refund for paying the HST on poppies for their annual Remembrance Day fundraising campaign.
> 
> Sources tell The Canadian Press that Federal Finance Minister Jim Flaherty will make the announcement Thursday when he visits a legion hall.
> 
> The Ontario government vowed earlier today that it would refund the provincial portion of the harmonized sales tax on poppies after the New Democrats raised the issue in the legislature.
> 
> The poppies are bought in Ontario by the Royal Canadian Legion and distributed to commands in other provinces ....


More from the Canadian Press here.


----------



## HavokFour

The HST is seriously being put on *poppies*? That's absolutely sick.


----------



## chrisf

The way I read that, it's the tax when the legion buys them from the manufacturer... not the tax on the individual sale... 

[Edit: As there is no tax on the individual *donation*]


----------



## Danjanou

a Sig Op said:
			
		

> The way I read that, it's the tax when the legion buys them from the manufacturer... not the tax on the individual sale...



No one "Sells" Poppies. They are distributed to thosae who want one and you are free to make a donation if you so choose.


----------



## chrisf

Danjanou said:
			
		

> No one "Sells" Poppies. They are distributed to thosae who want one and you are free to make a donation if you so choose.



Unless somone has bred a plastic poppy plant growing plastic poppies, then the legion quite clearly gets them from somewhere.... buying them in bulk, from a manufacturer who is "selling" them.

That's what I was referring to.

Presumably, the province is referring to the HST portion from the bulk sale by the manufacturer.

[Edit: Never mind, I understand what you were referring to now, I fixed it]


----------



## HavokFour

*Four poppy boxes stolen in Belleville*​


> Belleville police are asking for the public's help to track down suspects wanted for stealing four poppy boxes from two separate Tim Horton's restaurants.
> 
> Police were notified of the thefts on Monday. Two poppy boxes were stolen from a Tim Horton's at Bridge Street West and Sidney Street. Two others were stolen from a Tim Horton's restaurant on Dundas Street West.
> 
> Police say the thefts occurred over the past few weeks. *An estimated $600 in donations was stolen*.
> 
> A member of the veterans' association says while there have been thefts before; they've never occurred this early in the poppy campaign.
> 
> Last year, several poppy boxes were stolen from various locations across the capital. One of those incidents was caught on a surveillance camera at a Tim Horton's restaurant in the city's west end.



Article

Absolutely shameful. How low do you have to be to steal a poppy box? Do these people not realize where the proceeds go?


----------



## krustyrl

Totally inexcusable.....    :rage:


----------



## Kat Stevens

Here we go again... Game on!


----------



## OldSolduer

remember if you "detain" one of these creeps, don't beat them. you'll go to jail and he'll be out.


----------



## HavokFour

Tomorrow I'm going to hunt me down one of the gentlemen and/or ladies giving out poppies in the mall, and hand them a fifty.


----------



## Strike

HavokFour said:
			
		

> Tomorrow I'm going to hunt me down one of the gentlemen and/or ladies giving out poppies in the mall, and hand them a fifty.



Here here!  Take some MilPoints on me!


----------



## HavokFour

Finally found a Legion member handing them out at the Rideau Centre after an hour of looking and got myself a $50 poppy.

EDIT: I also noticed a few *white* poppies on the bus ride home, what's that all about?


----------



## ModlrMike

HavokFour said:
			
		

> Finally found a Legion member handing them out at the Rideau Centre after an hour of looking and got myself a $50 poppy.
> 
> EDIT: I also noticed a few *white* poppies on the bus ride home, what's that all about?



Done to death here: http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/81109/post-775553.html#msg775553


----------



## Jarnhamar

HavokFour said:
			
		

> Tomorrow I'm going to hunt me down one of the gentlemen and/or ladies giving out poppies in the mall, and hand them a fifty.



You should have gave them $1 and gave the $50 to a soup kitchen


----------



## mover1

Its Belleville. Drugs are bad here and so is the corresponding crime.  
Lots of Meth heads wandering the streets at all hours. I caught one trying to get into my house. 
Another  30 year old drunk chick tried to take on my 14 year old daughter's friend and got her clock cleaned by a twelve year old.
Then there is the murders and shootings and beatings, some prostitution etc
So a poppy box being stolen is sad but at least its tame in comparison to the rest of the stuff going on here.


----------



## gun runner

Sounds like the local LEO's are asleep at the wheel. If they catch these knuckleheads..and that is a big IF, I hope they make them stand at the cenotaph( with a broomstick, not a rifle.) and listen to the service. If that doesn't wake'em up then' book 'em Danno!' Cheers.


----------



## mover1

gun runner said:
			
		

> Sounds like the local LEO's are asleep at the wheel. If they catch these knuckleheads..and that is a big IF, I hope they make them stand at the cenotaph( with a broomstick, not a rifle.) and listen to the service. If that doesn't wake'em up then' book 'em Danno!' Cheers.



The police have their hands full. What about the employees at Timmie's shouldn't they have a better handle on the boxes.
And your rhetoric about the broomstick ....really?!?! Honestly?!?! Just a lot of hot air and sounds dumb.


----------



## gun runner

Well then let me apologize for my rhetoric. The Local LEO's have their hands full, eh. Then it should be the store employees responsiblity to prevent theft...have you ever thought that it is probably store policy to let them be robbed blind and let the LEO's catch them(CCTV recorders are the norm in all Tim's stores). Sounds like a vicious circle now doesn't it.


----------



## Jarnhamar

gun runner said:
			
		

> Well then let me apologize for my rhetoric. The Local LEO's have their hands full, eh. Then it should be the store employees responsiblity to prevent theft...have you ever thought that it is probably store policy to let them be robbed blind and let the LEO's catch them(CCTV recorders are the norm in all Tim's stores). Sounds like a vicious circle now doesn't it.


been eating poppy seeds?


----------



## mover1

I am tired. I am cranky and had it with the crime here. Mostly caused by strung out whiskey tangoes  dressed in their tap out gear riding their bikes up and down the streets at 4 and 5 am. 
The cops here are running form scene to scene to scene and its been a crazy year. 
Thanks for your insight to store security in the area its going to make Christmas very easy this year. I will just take what I want and wait for the cops to come get me because by your logic no one should be taking any theft prevention methods.


----------



## krustyrl

I see things haven't changed in Quinte West.?


----------



## gun runner

BAhahahahahahahaha!


----------



## Jarnhamar

mover1 said:
			
		

> I am tired. I am cranky and had it with the crime here. Mostly caused by strung out whiskey tangoes  dressed in their tap out gear riding their bikes up and down the streets at 4 and 5 am.



Whats wrong with tapout? It was designed by this guy


----------



## mover1

Cause its worn by these guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aQ6qo_q0_U&feature=related


----------



## Scott

Just heard it on CBC Radio.

PLEASE hit the link as there is a photo of the scumbag.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/11/10/ns-poppy-theft-tim-hortons.html

Poppy jar theft shocks coffee shop workers
Last Updated: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 | 10:31 PM AT Comments31Recommend31.
CBC News 
Tim Hortons employees are asking anyone who recognizes this man to contact police. (CBC) 
Staff members at a Tim Hortons in Dartmouth, N.S., are furious after a poppy jar was stolen from the counter of their store.

Surveillance video from the coffee shop on Main Street near Forest Hills Parkway shows a man slowly moving the poppy can closer to the counter's edge early Wednesday morning.

When staff members walk away, the man takes the poppies and money before leaving the store.

Lillis McInnis, a supervisor at the store, said she is upset about the theft.

"My father-in-law was in the war, his brother was taken a prisoner of war, my grandchildren are learning about what Remembrance Day means … and to have someone come in — not a teenager, a grown man probably in his 50s or 60s — and steal from the vets, it really disappoints me," she said.

McInnis said she's worked for Tim Hortons for 20 years and has never seen anything like it.

"When we looked at the video … I stood there and I cried," she said.

"It really is emotional to me because Remembrance Day does mean a lot to me and it means a lot to the girls I work with. We support the vets and to think not only that our grandfathers or fathers-in-law fought for the war, we have younger ones over there now that's losing their life, and to have someone go and steal, to me — I can't believe it."

Tim Hortons staff members are urging anyone with information to contact police.


Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/11/10/ns-poppy-theft-tim-hortons.html#ixzz14yrX3h27

--

I've got words, but we promised a long time ago not to say such things on this site.


----------



## jollyjacktar

He will get caught and hopefully get his too.  What a scumbag of the highest order.


----------



## Scott

Click the link and share the story on your Facebook or via email.

And nice to see someone suggesting we 'walk a mile in his shoes' before judging.

No thanks, it's been a while since I simply judged someone as a scumbag, this one is easy peasy.


----------



## BIGOS

People like this make me feel sick. No respect, whether it's for veterans or whomever.


----------



## Rafterman1

This is disgusting.  He deserves to rot in h#ll.


----------



## HavokFour

Sent this to the four corners of the internet. I hope they catch this scum.


----------



## Old Naval Guard

You know we are all going through hard times myself included. This is just to low, the Man has no respect, not even for himself. He should be ashamed . When they catch him he should be made to explain to a veteran why he did what he did. With respect ONG


----------



## Ignatius J. Reilly

What on earth was he thinking? I can't fathom why anyone would consider such an vile deed.


----------



## Ignatius J. Reilly

http://www.simcoe.com/news/article/901180--timmy-s-reverses-poppy-directive



> Timmy's reverses poppy directive
> 
> Veterans again allowed to sell poppies outside Tim Hortons outlets
> 
> MIDLAND – Tim Hortons officials have had a change of heart and will once again allow veterans to sell poppies outside its stores.
> 
> On Nov. 5, Midland Legion member Allan Light was stunned to learn he was no longer allowed to sell poppies outside the County Road 93 outlet, despite years of having done so.
> 
> On Monday, Alexandra Cygal, the company’s manager of public affairs, said the policy was one Tim Hortons has had in place for a number of years.
> 
> “We do get approached by so many different wonderful charities and organizations, and we can’t possibly allow everybody to go in or stand outside the door,” she said. “It can disrupt service.”
> 
> However, the company changed its stance Tuesday – less than two days before Remembrance Day – and apologized to Light via a statement through the media.
> 
> “Like most businesses, we have a policy against soliciting donations on our property. However, we’ve supported the Royal Canadian Legion for many years, allowing poppy donation boxes to be placed in our restaurants,” Cygal said. “We realize that support should also extend to veterans selling poppies, and we’ll communicate that to our restaurant owners immediately.”
> 
> The change of heart has left local veterans and Royal Canadian Legion members pleased.



I was initially shocked last week to learn of the stance of Tim Horton's head office, and am glad they have reconsidered their position on this issue.


----------



## HavokFour

I'd like to see them be allow inside, many of them are getting on in age and our weather isn't very friendly.


----------



## Strike

A friend of mine just told me that apparently the guy has turned himself in.  Haven't seen anything on the news yet though.


----------



## JesseWZ

This is something that occurs every year with one major business or another. In this case, they still place the poppy boxes in the restaurant, and at the Timmies' here in Oromocto, those boxes were always quite full. 

And every year around this time a story gets published about <insert evil company or corporation here> banning the sale of poppies at their location, then recanting after public opinion swells against them. I wonder how long it will take <insert future evil companies or corporations> to catch on...


----------



## ArmyRick

What a dirt bag. Warning, do not read the story comments posted below on the link, seems "lefties" are making excuses for him already


----------



## midget-boyd91

This happened at a Tims in Windsor Nova Scotia today as well. Customer asks worker for a cup of water, while she's turned away getting it, he grabs and runs.


----------



## GAP

Keeping on the defiled poppy theme.....

Muslim group burns poppies on Remembrance Day
By QMI Agency 
Article Link

A large model of a poppy was burned in protest of the war in Afghanistan and several demonstrators chanted during two minutes of silence in London during Thursday morning Armistice Day ceremonies.

A group that calls itself Muslims Against Crusades chanted, "British soldiers burn in hell," and held signs saying, "Islam will dominate" and, "Our dead are in paradise, your dead are in hell."

The Remembrance Day protest, near Hyde Park, involved 50 members of the group, the Daily Mail newspaper reported.

Another 50 counter-demonstrators were also there. The two groups were separated by police.

"We are demonstrating because this day is a day of remembrance to remember every single fallen soldier, including those killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. We find it disgusting that innocent people, innocent children, have been killed in an illegal and unjust war and we are demonstrating against that," Asad Ullah of Muslims Against Crusades said, several media outlets reported.

"We want the government to pull the troops out from these countries and to stop interfering in our affairs."
More on link


----------



## mariomike

"A large model of a poppy was burned in protest of the war in Afghanistan and several demonstrators chanted during two minutes of silence in London during Thursday morning Armistice Day ceremonies.":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MUAFuo9yr4

Edit to add:
( Warning: Graphic content. )
"Muslims Against Remembrance Day: The silence is broken":
http://muslimsagainstcrusades.com/


----------



## Ignatius J. Reilly

mariomike said:
			
		

> "A large model of a poppy was burned in protest of the war in Afghanistan and several demonstrators chanted during two minutes of silence in London during Thursday morning Armistice Day ceremonies.":
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MUAFuo9yr4


Good grief! What wretchedness on the part of those that would attempt such!


----------



## NavyShooter

Facebooked the original story....

NS


----------



## HavokFour

I'm thankful to live in a country were cr*p like that is against the law. If they are so up in arms, how about they go back to where they came from?

They do not realize that the wearing of the poppy and Remembrance Day is for remembering ALL war dead, even the non-combatants! This is merely a venue they are using to spout their hatred.


----------



## vonGarvin

I don't want to be banned from this site, so I'll refrain from expressing what I feel about those people chanting "British troops burn in Hell".


----------



## George Wallace

mariomike said:
			
		

> "A large model of a poppy was burned in protest of the war in Afghanistan and several demonstrators chanted during two minutes of silence in London during Thursday morning Armistice Day ceremonies.":
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MUAFuo9yr4
> 
> Edit to add:
> ( Warning: Graphic content. )
> "Muslims Against Remembrance Day: The silence is broken":
> http://muslimsagainstcrusades.com/



Isn't it interesting to see that they find nothing wrong with their "Crusade".


----------



## Jarnhamar

We wanna preach tolerance this is what we get.


----------



## Monsoon

My word - demonstrations like this sure do make the job of the security establishment a hell of a lot easier, though. Hey fellas - why not just put your mailing addresses and phone numbers on those posters you're carrying? They've already got your faces (and probably followed you home).


----------



## George Wallace

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> We wanna preach tolerance this is what we get.



I was just reading something lately that our preaching of tolerance is in fact making us more susceptible to loose of our freedom.  I suppose we can look at our topics here on what the Human Rights Commission has been up to lately and the pieces by Ezra Levant to see that perhaps this is true.


----------



## JSR OP

I saw this happen at the Ontario St Tim Horton's in Kingston last Friday Night.  I was taking my son to a hockey game downtown and we stopped in at Timmies to get a coffee and Hot Chocolate.  There was two Army Cadets just inside the doorway with their Poppy boxes there and I got one for my son to put on his jacket.  On our way out, a Tim's worker was telling these two kids that they were not allowed to be there.  I wasn't sure if she meant there in between the doors or on the property at all.  The poor kids didn't know what to do.


----------



## armyvern

HavokFour said:
			
		

> I'd like to see them be allow inside, many of them are getting on in age and our weather isn't very friendly.



Kingston and Pet have had Poppy Boxes on their counters since the get-go (& stuffed full here in Kingston). Asking around - this seems to be the SOP for Tim Hortons. Mom tells me that Poppy boxes have been on the counters in Timmies in Nova Scotia as well.


----------



## mariomike

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I was just reading something lately that our preaching of tolerance is in fact making us more susceptible to loose of our freedom.  I suppose we can look at our topics here on what the Human Rights Commission has been up to lately and the pieces by Ezra Levant to see that perhaps this is true.



What if this had happened twenty years ago? 
On the 50th anniversary of Operation Millenium the Queen Mother unveiled a monument of "Bomber" Harris and gave a speech. Former Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was in attendance. 
As the Queen Mum began to speak, about 250 protestors began heckling and throwing red paint.

This is the interesting part. The veterans "burst out of their seats and attacked the demonstators." 
Police made nine arrests.


----------



## Veovius

mariomike said:
			
		

> The veterans "burst out of their seats and attacked the demonstators."
> Police made nine arrests.



I bet the arrested were the protesters


----------



## mover1

Remember to boycott McDonald's for not letting their employees wear poppies at work.


----------



## MJP

mover1 said:
			
		

> Remember to boycott McDonald's for not letting their employees wear poppies at work.


 :

Right like I want the people that prepare my food to wear something that can easily fall out.  I think we have to apply a little bit of common sense before we get all indignant that some company doesn't allow their employees to do something.


----------



## mariomike

MJP said:
			
		

> Right like I want the people that prepare my food to wear something that can easily fall out.  I think we have to apply a little bit of common sense before we get all indignant that some company doesn't allow their employees to do something.



"The sticker, which is produced by the same company that has held the contract for the velvety pins since 1996, was designed with children, the elderly and those working in health care and the food service industry in mind, Clark said.":
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/11/05/poppy-stickers.html


----------



## mover1

Remember to boycott McDonald's for making us fat.


----------



## MJP

mover1 said:
			
		

> Remember to boycott McDonald's for making us fat.



Much better   ;D


----------



## mariomike

mover1 said:
			
		

> Remember to boycott McDonald's for making us fat.



Or sue them:
http://gothamist.com/2010/10/29/judge_you_cant_sue_mcdonalds_in_ny.php


----------



## pbi

I live in the west end of Kingston and the poppy box was on display from the start at the Tim's on Collins' Bay Road. My guess is that the real issue isn't the sale of the poppies, but rather a company policy on people "soliciting" on the property, regardless of the cause.

But, this is Canada. Just wait...we are going to hear some whiny little organization say something like:

 "..._Well, if we can allow people to glorify war on Tim's property, then our group Save the Mentally Challenged Snails should have that right too_..."

Cheers


----------



## armyvern

pbi said:
			
		

> I live in the west end of Kingston and the poppy box was on display from the start at the Tim's on Collins' Bay Road. My guess is that the real issue isn't the sale of the poppies, but rather a company policy on people "soliciting" on the property, regardless of the cause.
> 
> But, this is Canada. Just wait...we are going to hear some whiny little organization say something like:
> 
> "..._Well, if we can allow people to glorify war on Tim's property, then our group Save the Mentally Challenged Snails should have that right too_..."
> 
> Cheers



I agree with you as to what the actual issue may be here in the "physical solicitation on property", but it irritates the heck out of me when some people are so quick to jump on the "boycott" and "how dare they" bandwagon without inserting or utilizing a wee bit of common sense themselves. The insinuation that Tim Hortons doesn't allow poppy sales (or, in another thread, poppy wearing) is bunk. They do and always have. We even have videos and threads posted on this very site about Tim Hortons and its support of soldiers and Vets. And, of poppy boxes being stolen off their counters. Yet, somehow, that isn't good enough. 

The fact that their employees do not wear poppies is a legitimate health & safety point much like it is for a doctor working in the OR or anyone else working in the food service industry.

If anyone wants to bitch about anyone, they should choose a "target - <insert _evil_ company here>" that both does not allow Poppy Boxes placed within its location nor allows solicitation outside of its location by actual human beings. And, even then, if that company's "policy" is never to allow solicitation on or in its premises by any group/entity/cause - then they aren't really "anti-veteran" either.


As to your "whiney little groups" ... I'll say this: I donate to many causes throughout the year. I support veterans, the heart & stroke foundation, cystic fibrosis etc etc. Why should it be acceptable for veterans to collect for their cause "anywhere/anytime" when many others of these worthy and important causes can not? Why is it wrong for a company to deny all others but Vets and Poppy Boxes on their premises else be targetted as "evil"?? 

I was under the impression that I (and my forefathers) fought for *all* Canadians, not just myself and my organization.


----------



## mariomike

"McDonald's sticks a pin in her Remembrance Day plans":
http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2841519
"<snip> they are permitted to wear Royal Canadian Legion poppy stickers where appropriate and as available.":

"Legion offers poppy stickers as solution: BRANTFORD -- A Brantford mother and her daughter, who works at the King George Road McDonald's outlet, are upset after being told that restaurant employees may not wear pin-on poppies due to concerns for customer safety.":
http://www.woodstocksentinelreview.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2843472


----------



## pbi

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that I (and my forefathers) fought for *all* Canadians, not just myself and my organization.



My point was not about Tim's supporting poppy sales but about not allowing "soliciting". Tim's itself contributes to Canada and Canadians is a number of different ways, so I don't think it can be accused of  limiting its support to the Legion.

As for whether or not the Legion should be given special consideration over all other social organizations: it asks the question of whether or not we should accord special and unique recognition to the idea of sacrifice for country, which is what is at the heart of the poppy campaign, over causes such as cancer, homelessness, or victims of drunk driving.

I say, yes, we should. But then, I also say that we should ony half-mast the national flag for those who die in the service of the nation, not for victims of crime, etc. etc.

Cheers


----------



## armyvern

pbi said:
			
		

> My point was not about Tim's supporting poppy sales but about not allowing "soliciting". Tim's itself contributes to Canada and Canadians is a number of different ways, so I don't think it can be accused of  limiting its support to the Legion.
> 
> As for whether or not the Legion should be given special consideration over all other social organizations: it asks the question of whether or not we should accord special and unique recognition to the idea of sacrifice for country, which is what is at the heart of the poppy campaign, over causes such as cancer, homelessness, or victims of drunk driving.
> 
> I say, yes, we should. But then, I also say that we should ony half-mast the national flag for those who die in the service of the nation, not for victims of crime, etc. etc.
> 
> Cheers



I wasn't accusing you of anything of the sort.

I was simply stating that I, as a Canadian, have the right to donate to whichever legitimate charitable cause I wish and I question why Canadians would be limited in that right through "selective" choosing of "evil" targets.

I'm sorry, but I do believe that a child with cystic fibrosis is just as legitimate a cause for example.

If you want to play the "sacrifice for country card" in this instance for poppy sales, then it goes without saying that supporting veterans groups and activities will always be the highest and only legitimate cause worthy of "anytime/anywhere" and to be "entitled to" special privledges over other groups no matter the policy of the Company at hand. 

Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that; I believe we all have that right to seek donations for our cause and that I am no more important than the next guy/gal. If not, then we are seeking out "special" rights for ourselves that are not directly attributable to our service.


----------



## mariomike

More on poppy selling:
Topic: The Poppy Selling Superthread- Merged:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/2775.0.html
( 20 pages )


----------



## pbi

> I wasn't accusing you of anything of the sort.



Actually, I wasn't accusing you of accusing me, so no need to say you weren't doing what I didn't say you were doing.



> I was simply stating that I, as a Canadian, have the right to donate to whichever legitimate charitable cause I wish



I agree, completely. I donate to lots of different causes, too.



> If you want to play the "sacrifice for country card"



I don't want to "_play_" any "card". I want to say that I believe recognizing people who sacrificed for their country trumps any other social cause I can think of.  It looks like we agree on that point:



> it goes without saying that supporting veterans groups and activities will always be the highest and only legitimate cause worthy of "anytime/anywhere" and to be "entitled to" special privledges over other groups no matter the policy of the Company at hand.


  

But not on this...



> Sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that; I believe we all have that right to seek donations for our cause and that I am no more important than the next guy/gal. If not, then we are seeking out "special" rights for ourselves that are not directly attributable to our service.



IMHO it has nothing to do with "you", "me", or "us" as individuals advocating this cause or that cause. It has everything to do with the much bigger idea of according proper status and recognition to the act of making ultimate sacrifice for your country, above other social causes. It's also not about saying that the other causes aren't worthy: that certainly wasn't my point.

Cheers


----------



## armyvern

pbi said:
			
		

> ...
> I don't want to "_play_" any "card". I want to say that I believe recognizing people who sacrificed for their country trumps any other social cause I can think of.  It looks like we agree on that point:
> ...



Uhmmm, read it again carefully - we do not agree on the point that you then quoted (of mine) as you've stated above.

I do not believe that 'anywhere/anytime' should be applicable to veterans and no one else as you believe it should be. I volunteered to do what I do not because I wanted "special" priveledges for the rest of my life; I don't think I'm any more special or "entitled" than any other citizen of this nation.

And, now I'll bow out of this thread and - as I already stated - we'll have to agree to disagree.


----------



## pbi

> If you want to play the "sacrifice for country card" in this instance for poppy sales, then it goes without saying that supporting veterans groups and activities will always be the highest and only legitimate cause worthy of "anytime/anywhere" and to be "entitled to" special privledges over other groups no matter the policy of the Company at hand.



Somehow, it seems I didn't understand what you meant here. It reads to me as though we agree. Maybe this is the problem with "tone" in e-mail, or maybe I'm dumb (quite possible).

Cheers


----------



## Sapplicant

All of this, the poppy money theft, the Muslims 'breaking the silence', Mcdonalds 'making us fat'... they're merely symptoms of a bigger problem. I really wish I knew a 'politically correct' way we could rid the world of what really is wrong, but we can't even agree on just what actually is wrong, much less just what political correctness is even good for.


Poppy theft-> It's a shame to see the way our vices can cause us to act. Same thing happened last year in a couple places here in NB. The act is despicable, yes. But for some strange reason, I wanna hear the guy's explanation of what drove him. Morbid curiosity, I guess. It's not just poppy jars that get snatched, either. Why do you think Mcdonalds (more to come) chains their Ronald Mcdonald house recepticles to the counter?

Muslims-> Didn't the majority of muslims fight alongside us, or am I crazy? Pretty sure if the Axis had won, there wouldn't be any protests like this going without a mass state-assisted suidice happening. Not saying, just saying that these guys seem to have missed a history lesson or two. Thankfully, fools like this are not making themselves heard much here in Canada.

Mcdonalds-> It won't make you fat if you're not lazy. In the past, humans never really spent much time inside on our arses glued to TV's, video games, or the 'information superhighway'. Try working on a farm 7 days a week for a month, eating McDonalds for lunch every day. I can tell you firsthand, it won't make you fat then. Heck, even proper daily exercise, for an hour or 2, will allow you to eat a metric sh!t tonne of the stuff without much consequence (Na aside).


This BS world of ours has to change. Eventually, there's gonna be some toes stepped on. When it happens, not everyone's gonna be happy about it. We'll have to collectively "Suck it up, Princess" and mop up the mess. For now, all I can do is quote Recceguy;


"Stop the world for a sec, will ya? I wanna get off."


----------



## mover1

Sapplicant  as a muslim who had to steal a poppy jar to feed my family McDondals I find your post refreshing.


----------



## Sapplicant

mover1 said:
			
		

> Sapplicant  as a muslim who had to steal a poppy jar to feed my family McDondals I find your post refreshing.




As long as you're feeding your family, and not a VLT or some other addiction.  ;D


----------



## Sapplicant

Technoviking said:
			
		

> I don't want to be banned from this site, so I'll refrain from expressing what I feel about those people chanting "British troops burn in Hell".




They're allowed to scream that our family who died in the wars are burning in hell during the 11 o'clock silence on Armistice Day, and you're not allowed to express your feelings about them or their actions. Does something seem wrong with this picture to you too, sir?


----------



## derekreid

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> Muslims-> Didn't the majority of muslims fight alongside us, or am I crazy? Pretty sure if the Axis had won, there wouldn't be any protests like this going without a mass state-assisted suidice happening. Not saying, just saying that these guys seem to have missed a history lesson or two. Thankfully, fools like this are not making themselves heard much here in Canada.



You do realize Islam is the second most popular religion in the world, right? That's like someone saying "I thought the majority of Christians were on our side?". There are extremists on every side, and they will likely claim they speak for the majority.

Sorry for the call-out on political correctness, but let's not try to stereotype too much.


----------



## Sapplicant

derekreid said:
			
		

> You do realize Islam is the second most popular religion in the world, right? That's like someone saying "I thought the majority of Christians were on our side?". There are extremists on every side, and they will likely claim they speak for the majority.
> 
> Sorry for the call-out on political correctness, but let's not try to stereotype too much.




The majority of muslims who fought in WW1, and WW2, were on our side. Hell, the Triple Entente helped sponsor the Arab Revolt of 1916. Yes, some Balkan muslims were taken into the German army in WW2, and Rashid Ali and the Mufti of Jerusalem tried to align themselves with Germany in 1941, but that didn't end up working out too well for them. The majority of muslims that fought were part of the commonwealth (As in, the British one). I wasn't stereotyping, you were assuming.  


Extremists? I don't recall mentioning anything about extremists in my post.


Sorry for shooting down your attempt at being politically correct.


----------



## George Wallace

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> They're allowed to scream that our family who died in the wars are burning in hell during the 11 o'clock silence on Armistice Day, and you're not allowed to express your feelings about them or their actions. Does something seem wrong with this picture to you too, sir?



I hope you go back and read your post and reflect on it.

Some people are above an "eye for an eye" type of mentality.   There are better ways to 'educate' these people.


----------



## Kat Stevens

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I hope you go back and read your post and reflect on it.
> 
> Some people are above an "eye for an eye" type of mentality.   There are better ways to 'educate' these people.



Bullshit.  You can't educate a radical any more than you can negotiate with a rabid wolf.  Their beliefs and opinions are formed, and you're not changing it.


----------



## George Wallace

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Bullshit.  You can't educate a radical any more than you can negotiate with a rabid wolf.  Their beliefs and opinions are formed, and you're not changing it.



Not quite what I was trying to say.  It does us nothing to lower ourselves to their level and turn a ceremony of Remembrance into a shouting match and bar fight, which is what I took Sapplicant as advocating.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Ah, seen.


----------



## Sapplicant

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not quite what I was trying to say.  It does us nothing to lower ourselves to their level and turn a ceremony of Remembrance into a shouting match and bar fight, which is what I took Sapplicant as advocating.



I was doing no such thing. If anything, I would advocate ignoring them and trying to keep the ceremony peaceful, then hunting them down like a wounded deer in the days/weeks following. I was simply pointing out that it's sad that these fools at the remembrance day ceremony were able to get away with doing that, but if TV wants to express what he thinks of these people on his beloved Army.ca, he has to worry about offending people and being banned. That, to me, is utter Bull, and yet another symptom of the bigger problem.


----------



## George Wallace

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> I was doing no such thing. If anything, I would advocate ignoring them and trying to keep the ceremony peaceful, then hunting them down like a wounded deer in the days/weeks following. I was simply pointing out that it's sad that these fools at the remembrance day ceremony were able to get away with doing that, but if TV wants to express what he thinks of these people on his beloved Army.ca, he has to worry about offending people and being banned. That, to me, is utter Bull, and yet another symptom of the bigger problem.



I, and most of the other members, know what you feel, and have the same gut feelings.  Our ability to keep ourselves under control and not hunt these wastes of rations down and put them out of their misery is what makes us better than them.  However, we do have the rights to have them prosecuted to the full extent of the Law, should they cross those lines.  Having the capability of using extreme violence is one thing.  The ability to control that capability is another.   That is where we are "better" than them.


----------



## Sapplicant

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I, and most of the other members, know what you feel, and have the same gut feelings.  Our ability to keep ourselves under control and not hunt these wastes of rations down and put them out of their misery is what makes us better than them.  However, we do have the rights to have them prosecuted to the full extent of the Law, should they cross those lines.  Having the capability of using extreme violence is one thing.  The ability to control that capability is another.   That is where we are "better" than them.



I understand what you are saying. It is very true, and very wise. That's why you're Directing Staff, and have an advanced career in the Forces, and I'm a New Member, working as a farmhand and waiting for "the call".

However, I very firmly believe that our Laws, much like western society in general, have become far too soft. The "full extent of the Law" will probably hand them a slap on the wrist and lighten their pockets of a few Euros. That will do nothing to stop them from continuing to be a burden to our society. 

Maybe my views will change with age and personal experience, but from what I've seen in my short 25 years on this planet, it's hard to believe that simply knowing we're "better than them" is going to stop "them". Removing the velvet glove and exposing the iron fist is what's gonna have to happen, unless we alter the course we're on. I hope I'm wrong, I truly do.

Sorry for the off topic rant.


----------



## Jarnhamar

The older I get the more I see these psychos as a cancer.

I figure there's gonna come a time (again) where we're going to need to do like our grandfathers did- say enough is enough, get on some boats and go sort people out.


----------



## George Wallace

Sapplicant said:
			
		

> Maybe my views will change with age and personal experience, but from what I've seen in my short 25 years on this planet, it's hard to believe that simply knowing we're "better than them" is going to stop "them". Removing the velvet glove and exposing the iron fist is what's gonna have to happen, unless we alter the course we're on. I hope I'm wrong, I truly do.
> 
> Sorry for the off topic rant.



It really isn't that far off topic.  We are upset at an individual desecrating this time of Remembrance.  At the same time we can see that in our history, our training and restraint have in a way "made us better" than others.  When the time came to "drop the hammer" in past wars and in the present, we have been able to.  We, however, have been able temper ourselves.   We have removed the velvet glove and exposed our iron fist in the past and are still capable of doing it today.


----------



## gun runner

Well stated George. I hope that the use of our Iron Fist is quick and one sided, not drawn out and bloody..if it comes to that. Ubique.


----------



## Jarnhamar

George Wallace said:
			
		

> At the same time we can see that in our history, our training and restraint have in a way "made us better" than others.  When the time came to "drop the hammer" in past wars and in the present, we have been able to.  We, however, have been able temper ourselves.  We have removed the velvet glove and exposed our iron fist in the past and are still capable of doing it today.



This isn't exactly working in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Sure we can remove the velvet glove and start flashing around our iron fist- only we won't be able to hit anyone with it, just threaten people. And not really threaten them, just use harsh language- as long as it doesn't offend them  ;D


----------



## George Wallace

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> This isn't exactly working in Iraq or Afghanistan.
> 
> Sure we can remove the velvet glove and start flashing around our iron fist- only we won't be able to hit anyone with it, just threaten people. And not really threaten them, just use harsh language- as long as it doesn't offend them  ;D



Well, we do try, but with both hands tied behind our backs we can only hope for a lucky placement of a size 11 CWW boot in some bad guys junk.   >


----------



## desert_rat

well they arrested this one in Edmonton...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2010/11/17/edmonton-poppy-theft-arrest.html


----------



## Trueblue

Hey guys,

any news about the guy who stole the jar from the tim hortons in cole harbour?

Dartmouth isn't that big of a city with the video going around and the type of theft you'd think they would of found him by now.


----------



## Private Parts

Trueblue said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> any news about the guy who stole the jar from the tim hortons in cole harbour?
> 
> Dartmouth isn't that big of a city with the video going around and the type of theft you'd think they would of found him by now.



From CBC Nova Scotia, shared with the usual disclaimer:

Article Link



> Police have identified a suspect in the Nov. 10 theft of poppy money at a Tim Hortons in Dartmouth, N.S.
> 
> Police said Friday that the man is a suspect in two similar robberies at Tim Hortons in Chester and Tantallon, N.S., on the same day.
> 
> The Royal Canadian Legion sells the poppies to raise money to help veterans.
> 
> The Dartmouth theft occurred around midnight the day before Remembrance Day and was caught on surveillance video. The images show a man waiting for his coffee. He nudges the poppy tray closer to the counter three times.
> 
> When staff go to the back of the store, he takes the poppies and the money. CBC News aired the footage and that led police receiving several tips from people who thought they recognized the man.
> 
> One of the tipsters was a Halifax police officer. Police said they know the suspect's identity and were searching for him Friday afternoon. Police plan to charge him with theft when he is located.
> 
> Police said the same man is a suspect in two other robberies captured by security cameras.
> 
> In Chester, which is about an hour's drive south of Dartmouth, sources say a man asked staff at a Tim Hortons for a telephone book and spent about 15 minutes leafing through it around 10 a.m. When he was alone, he grabbed the poppy money and walked out.
> 
> In Tantallon, about a 30-minute drive west of Dartmouth, a man ordered a Tim Hortons coffee at 5 a.m. When staff were not looking he took the poppy can, hid it under the table and emptied it out while he drank his coffee.
> 
> RCMP confirmed they are investigating those thefts but have not laid any charges.


----------



## Trueblue

Thanks for the link,

in total all of the jars could add up to theft over a thousand... I hope they throw the book at him.


----------



## gun runner

Same here...throw the book at him, and hit him with it this time!


----------



## Hawk

There's an update on the story about the poppy jar thefts in Nova Scotia in the online Chronicle Herald: 
http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Front/9019147.html

It should be read right to the end for literary content!!!

Hawk


----------



## Sapplicant

Hawk said:
			
		

> There's an update on the story about the poppy jar thefts in Nova Scotia in the online Chronicle Herald:
> http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/Front/9019147.html
> 
> It should be read right to the end for literary content!!!
> 
> Hawk




 :rofl:

I caught that. Seriously? The editor missed that?


----------



## hugh19

That is a very funny oops! iper:


----------



## vonGarvin

Call my blind  8), but I missed it...


----------



## George Wallace

First para names the suspect.

Last para states that the police are not releasing the name of the suspect.

 ;D


----------



## Strike

Mind you, once someone has been charged they can release the name, at least in the case of how the CF runs things.  I think it may just be the paper making sure that the public knows that the source was NOT the police.


----------



## Hawk

Perhaps they've started to celebrate Christmas at the Chronicle Herald! Bottom line, they charged this dude.

Hawk


----------



## George Wallace

Hawk said:
			
		

> Perhaps they've started to celebrate Christmas at the Chronicle Herald! Bottom line, they charged this dude.
> 
> Hawk



Do they celebrate Christmas daily at the Chonicle Herald?     >


----------



## Container

The names of people once and information is sworn is public domain. The paper only had to call the court house to get the name of the individual.


----------



## vonGarvin

George Wallace said:
			
		

> First para names the suspect.
> 
> Last para states that the police are not releasing the name of the suspect.
> 
> ;D





> Documents identifying a Beaver Bank man accused of stealing poppy money from a Tim Hortons shop in Dartmouth have been been filed with the courts.



Yes, caught that.  Court Documents identified dude, but the police hadn't released his name.


----------



## kratz

I searched and did not find a relevant news report, but this thread is a great place to post the court results from one of these yearly thefts.

CBC.ca



> Poppy donation thief gets 60 days
> CBC News Posted: Mar 4, 2011 6:30 PM AT Last Updated: Mar 4, 2011 6:30 PM AT
> 
> A 36-year-old Charlottetown man has been sentenced to 60 days in jail, to be served on weekends, for stealing a poppy can from a video rental store last November.
> 
> The can was estimated to have contained $20 to $30.
> 
> Richard Anthony Graves told the court he needed the money to support his girlfriend and their three children.
> 
> He's been convicted 12 times over the past 9 years for theft under $5,000.
> 
> Graves admitted to the crime and co-operated with police.
> 
> He said he's sorry for what he did.
> 
> Graves was also sentenced to one-year probation.
> 
> At the time of his arrest, Graves was already serving a weekend sentence for a previous conviction.
> 
> He has to pay the money back to the Royal Canadian Legion


----------



## brihard

kratz said:
			
		

> I searched and did not find a relevant news report, but this thread is a great place to post the court results from one of these yearly thefts.
> 
> CBC.ca



Seems appropriate to me. Good to hear the followup on this.


----------



## JMesh

Update from the CBC:



> N.L. poppy money thief pleads guilty
> Article Link
> Posted: May 25, 2011 12:46 PM NT
> 
> A man caught on security video stealing money donated to military veterans for poppies on Remembrance Day has pleaded guilty.
> 
> Rodney Pritchett, 29, of Gambo, took about $50 worth of change from a Tim Hortons in the central Newfoundland community of Gander, according to the RCMP.
> 
> Police said the incident happened just before 2:30 a.m. on Nov. 11, 2010.
> 
> More at link


----------



## Sythen

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2011/11/20111103-083628.html



> TORONTO - Bob Hackett calls the man who stole a Canadian Legion poppy box belonging to his branch "scum."
> The president of Branch 3 didn't mince words Wednesday about what he'd say to the person who stole the box from a pizza shop around 11:45 p.m. Monday.
> 
> "When you steal from the Poppy Fund, as far as I'm concerned, you're the lowest scum there is," Hackett said.
> 
> The bandit was caught by a surveillance camera as he grabbed the box sitting on the front counter of the pizza shop.
> 
> He fled with an unknown amount of money, but it couldn't have been much, Toronto Police said.



More on link... Guess its starting again.. At least they got his picture.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Sythen said:
			
		

> http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2011/11/20111103-083628.html
> 
> More on link... *Guess its starting again*.. At least they got his picture.


Sadly, 'tis the season....


----------



## Jarnhamar

Does the Legion send their lawyers after these guys too?


----------



## FlyingDutchman

mover1 said:
			
		

> The police have their hands full. What about the employees at Timmie's shouldn't they have a better handle on the boxes.
> And your rhetoric about the broomstick ....really?!?! Honestly?!?! Just a lot of hot air and sounds dumb.


The poppy box here is just sitting on the counter, even if watched like a hawk it could easily be grabbed and out the door in two seconds or less, and I have been trained NOT to go after or engage with anyone who would do this but call the police ASAP.  Timmie's employees have probably been trained the same way.  The poppy box I have is not well suited to be tied down either.  Hope they catch the buggers.


----------



## 57Chevy

Poppy boxes stolen from 2 Tim Hortons in Hamilton
http://m.ctv.ca/topstories/20111103/poppy-boxes-hamilton-stolen-111103.html

Hamilton, Ont. police are asking the public for help identifying a man who stole two poppy donation boxes Wednesday morning.

Police say a male suspect entered a Tim Hortons on Ottawa Street North at about 5:30 a.m. and placed an order with the clerk.

When the clerk turned to fill the order, he grabbed a donation box and fled the scene.

About 30 minutes later, a male matching the same description also stole a donation box from a Time Hortons on King Street West. 

The poppy donation campaign is run by the Royal Canadian Legion in the lead-up to Remembrance Day and money collected goes to help war veterans in the community.

The suspect is described as an East Asian man in his early 20s, 5'8" tall with a medium build and shot black hair. He has a goatee and was last seen wearing a dark blue jacket with a white stripe down the sleeve and a logo on the back.

Anyone with information about the suspect is asked to contact Hamilton Police at 905-546-4925 or Crime Stoppers anonymously at 1-800-222-8477.

The robberies come little more than a day after donation box was stolen from a Pizza Nova shop in Toronto. 

Police say a suspect grabbed the box off the restaurant counter on The Queensway near Royal York around 11:45 Monday night.


----------



## Sythen

A little bit of good news.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20111107/poppy-thief-suspect-surrender-mother-111107/20111107?hub=TorontoNewHome



> A man turned himself into police early Monday morning one week after a poppy donation box was stolen from a Toronto pizza shop.
> 
> Toronto police said the 26-year-old man and his mother walked into a police station shortly before 4 a.m. and he was charged in the theft of two donation boxes over the past week.



More on link


----------



## The Bread Guy

mover1 said:
			
		

> The police have their hands full. What about the employees at Timmie's shouldn't they have a better handle on the boxes.


If Tim's is like most franchise chains, head office will probably tell them to let the box go rather than get into a confrontation with the thief.  Other chains have the same advice if held up, too.  Sucks, but I'm guessing it's for insurance/litigation purposes.



			
				Sythen said:
			
		

> A little bit of good news.
> 
> http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20111107/poppy-thief-suspect-surrender-mother-111107/20111107?hub=TorontoNewHome
> 
> 
> 
> A man turned himself into police early Monday morning one week after a poppy donation box was stolen from a Toronto pizza shop.
> 
> Toronto police said the 26-year-old man and his mother walked into a police station shortly before 4 a.m. and he was charged in the theft of two donation boxes over the past week.
> 
> 
> 
> More on link
Click to expand...

Good to hear.


----------



## FlyingDutchman

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> If Tim's is like most franchise chains, head office will probably tell them to let the box go rather than get into a confrontation with the thief.  Other chains have the same advice if held up, too.  Sucks, but I'm guessing it's for insurance/litigation purposes.


According to my boss, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.


----------



## Sythen

Couple more of these "people" caught..

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20111108/poppy-donation-box-theft-arrests-111108/20111108?hub=TorontoNewHome



> BELLEVILLE, Ont. — A man and woman face charges after money was stolen from two poppy boxes in a restaurant in Trenton, Ont.
> 
> Provincial police say two suspects took money from one box last Friday afternoon and returned and took money from a second box in the evening.
> 
> Forty-eight-year-old Wayne Enright and 37-year-old Theresa Marcotte, both of Trenton, are each charged with two counts of theft under $5,000.
> 
> Marcotte appeared in court Monday and Enright is due in court Dec. 8.
> 
> Meanwhile, a man has surrendered to Toronto police after poppy boxes were taken. Tomas Hvozdar, 26, of Toronto, has been charged with three counts of theft under $5,000 and failure to comply with a recognizance.
> 
> And police in Hamilton and North Bay are looking for suspects after poppy boxes were stolen in those cities last week.


----------



## twistedfang790

Even if it wasn't policy to stand back and let the theft happen i would not expect any of the employees to try to stop it , they might get hurt.However pretty sure if any soldiers were ever around most of us would at least chase down the guy , consequences be damned!


----------



## The Bread Guy

Again ....  :rage:


> Members of a veterans' group in London, Ont., say they're stunned after someone stole 10 poppy donation boxes from the group's office.
> 
> Officials say the suspect or suspects broke through a window at the Canadian Corps Association on Dundas Street last Sunday night and stole the boxes.
> 
> It's not clear how much money was lost.
> 
> Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney says in an email that he's appalled by the thefts in London.
> 
> "The money raised during the campaign helps ensure our veterans have the additional care and support they need," Blaney said.
> 
> "It is our duty as Canadians to show respect and honour the sacrifices of those who served and those who continue to serve our country."
> 
> Group spokeswoman Sherry Cornish says police could not get fingerprints because the suspect or suspects wore gloves.
> 
> "I was in shock to think that someone could do this to our veterans," Cornish said of the London thefts.
> 
> "To me this is really disgusting." ....


The Canadian Press via CTV.ca, 10 Nov 11


----------



## Rifleman62

> "The money raised during the campaign helps ensure our veterans have the additional care and support they need," Blaney said.



And why would the Minister of Veterans Affairs state that Veterans need nickles, dimes and quarters charity to "helps ensure our veterans have the additional care and support they need".


----------



## ModlrMike

Just a WAG, but perhaps there are TB rules that limit what can be provided. The Poppy Fund would bridge that gap.


----------



## jollyjacktar

http://thechronicleherald.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/ch_article_main_image/bm_cartoon/Brucex11%5BRGB%5D.jpg

A relevant cartoon in today's online edition of the Halifax Herald.


----------



## The Bread Guy

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Just a WAG, but perhaps there are TB rules that limit what can be provided. The Poppy Fund would bridge that gap.


Ah, but there are rules, and there are "rules".


----------



## Edward Campbell

I don't know why we are surprised.

Most poppy boxes I have seen are on counters in small shops where the shopkeeper is busy. There are a lot of people people out there, probably *most* people, for whom the poppy is pretty much meaningless; there are many for whom a box of money fills their immediate needs wants.


----------



## ballz

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I don't know why we are surprised.



I'm more surprised people haven't learned to at least secure the damn thing down somehow, it only as a deterrence because it might make some noise when you rip it off the counter. I think it's out of a "I shouldn't have to chain a poppy jar down" type of feeling.

In St. John's there was an article at least a week ago that said there were already 4 poppy jars reported stolen... Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice....


----------



## ObserverUK

I don't understand what happened to the poppy sellers in the UK this year but they were very few of them and I didn't see any collection boxes on any counters anywhere!  Usually they are readily available everywhere well in advance of 11/11 and I am able to buy one every day for a week!

I only just managed to get mine this afternoon which was a bit embarrassing as I was running a defence sector session yesterday without my poppy!   :crybaby:   But when I asked the people there they had problems finding poppies as well.

Bit of a shame as the UK are pretty generous when it comes the poppy collections.


----------



## The Bread Guy

The latest on this one....


			
				milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Again ....  :rage:
> 
> 
> 
> Members of a veterans' group in London, Ont., say they're stunned after someone stole 10 poppy donation boxes from the group's office.
> 
> Officials say the suspect or suspects broke through a window at the Canadian Corps Association on Dundas Street last Sunday night and stole the boxes.
> 
> It's not clear how much money was lost.
> 
> Veterans Affairs Minister Steven Blaney says in an email that he's appalled by the thefts in London.
> 
> "The money raised during the campaign helps ensure our veterans have the additional care and support they need," Blaney said.
> 
> "It is our duty as Canadians to show respect and honour the sacrifices of those who served and those who continue to serve our country."
> 
> Group spokeswoman Sherry Cornish says police could not get fingerprints because the suspect or suspects wore gloves ....
> 
> 
> 
> The Canadian Press via CTV.ca, 10 Nov 11
Click to expand...

.... from the _London Free Press_:


> A London man accused of stealing poppy boxes from the Veterans Association is the son of the organization's president.
> 
> Ten poppy boxes containing a total of at least $500 were stolen Sunday from the Dundas St. office of the Canadian Corps Veterans Association.
> 
> Kenneth Maudsley, 22, of no fixed address was arrested Thursday on an unrelated warrant. He was later charged with stealing the poppy boxes, police said Friday.
> 
> Sherri Cornish, first vice-president at the Veterans Association, confirmed the accused is the son of association president Ken Maudsley.
> 
> Police said the elder Maudsley wasn't involved in the theft.
> 
> Officials believe the boxes contained between a total of $500 and $1,000. It wasn't the amount of money stolen but from whom it was stolen - veterans - that provoked anger among Londoners ....



Re:  this....


			
				ballz said:
			
		

> I'm more surprised people haven't learned to at least secure the damn thing down somehow, it only as a deterrence because it might make some noise when you rip it off the counter ....


I guess the question becomes:  how do you secure a tray and coin collection box made of the light kind of plastic used to make disposable plastic plates?


----------



## The Bread Guy

Bumped with the latest in one of the cases, this one in North Bay.  





> Stealing poppy funds meant for war veterans was “disgraceful and shameful," a judge said Tuesday.
> 
> “This is a way for people to give charity to veterans. The money is intended to support veterans, not people’s drug habits,” said Crown attorney Sheila Seguin.
> 
> William McDaid, 31, asked for house arrest to tackle his drug addictions. Court heard his track record in Northern Ontario shows his crime sprees usually start as soon as he’s out of jail and he’s better off getting treatment behind bars.
> 
> North Bay Police Service released McDaid’s photo in November when he was caught on video surveillance at a convenience store during one of the thefts. He was arrested the next day.
> 
> McDaid was sentenced Tuesday to 18 months for a string of thefts between Aug. 16 and Nov. 7.
> 
> He took $250 from cash registers at a local restaurant and hotel, stole $60 worth of lottery tickets from one convenience store, and poppy funds from three other businesses and the Royal Canadian Legion in North Bay, Ont., the Crown said ....


QMI/Sun Media, 18 Jan 12


----------



## gwp

Covers wearing the poppy, flag etiquette, medals, and more.   This year poppies may be worn from Oct. 26 (last Friday in Oct) to Nov. 11 

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/pub/oth-aut/rd-js/doc/rd-js-eng.pdf


----------



## Danjanou

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> I really hate doing this but for those in MARLANT (DIN msg):
> http://ln6-hfx-q043300.halifax.mil.ca/messages/marlantgen/2012293000182.html
> Specifically para 3
> Sorry...
> Pat
> 
> I have often thought of something more permanent as being a little more practical. I think if the wearing of the poppy is re marketed, then sales would not slump. If you are volunteering for your Legion doing this, don't ask people if they will 'buy' a poppy, ask them if they would 'wear' one. Tell them what it supports as most people don't realize it. For those who "don't have any change", I used to keep a roll of quarters on me and if it cost me $10 each night I was outside Sobeys or Cambodian Tire, it was for a worthy cause and I had no issues with it.



I do find it entertaining while standing in front of the local beer store or whatever this time of year judging who will approach me and what if anything they toss in the box. First year I volunteered I had a recent South Asian immigrant in Walmart try and haggle with me for the "cost" of poppies for her and her brood of kids. The kids obviously knew the significance and seemed a bit embarrassed by mom.  Saw  guy down on his luck cashing in the empties  and then taking most of the change and putting it in the box with a "thank you for your service." That was 5 minutes after some asshat in a luxury SUV with Vet plates roared in and nice dressed guy with military haircut but no poppy moved  past me in a hurry trying to avoid eye contact, go figure. Last year some numpty decided to waste my time by pointing out the recycled one from several years ago(old green centre)  he was wearing negating the need ti divest himself of his spare change.

I'd rather take a couple of pennies from some little  kid who gets it  than a $50.00 or $20.00 from some Bay Street type who doesn't.


----------



## JorgSlice

Danjanou said:
			
		

> I do find it entertaining while standing in front of the local beer store or whatever this time of year judging who will approach me and what if anything they toss in the box. First year I volunteered I had a recent South Asian immigrant in Walmart try and haggle with me for the "cost" of poppies for her and her brood of kids. The kids obviously knew the significance and seemed a bit embarrassed by mom.  Saw  guy down on his luck cashing in the empties  and then taking most of the change and putting it in the box with a "thank you for your service." That was 5 minutes after some idiot in a luxury SUV with Vet plates roared in and nice dressed guy with military haircut but no poppy moved  past me in a hurry trying to avoid eye contact, go figure. Last year some numpty decided to waste my time by pointing out the recycled one from several years ago(old green centre)  he was wearing negating the need ti divest himself of his spare change.
> 
> I'd rather take a couple of pennies from some little  kid who gets it  than a $50.00 or $20.00 from some Bay Street type who doesn't.



One thing that bugs me... in my area there's a particular table of Legion members, I don't know if they are relatives of someone who served or what but always hearing "would you like to buy a poppy"/"poppy sales" just irks me. By absolute technical definition, they're free and you donate... but I digress.

Years ago as a Cadet, I had a Persian youth about 12 or 13 years old come up and he asked if I would teach him about Veterans and Remembrance Day and the meaning of the Poppy. I had been Acting-C/RSM at the time and decided to take time out to teach this kid. We sat down and discussed it, he told me about his brief childhood in Iran and etc. We had moved back down towards the table my CO was sitting at so I could exchange my donation bucket and this kid's father came charging over, knocked boxes of poppies over and buckets of change over onto the floor yelling and shouting saying how the poppy is bad (we're "encouraging opium growth for funding oppressive regimes" he said) and that we shall be punished by Allah for trying to damage his son's innocence, blah blah blah....

Fast forward a few years, the kid is/was the Cadet RSM of the same unit I was with. A friend of mine who volunteered with the unit sent me a letter from him stating how he was embarrassed by his father and thanked me for teaching him the meaning and he wishes to give back to Canada for being so great to him so far. His father doesn't speak to him anymore. His father was in Canada for 26 years at the time of the incident, his father and uncle both served in the RCN (MARPAC at the time I think)... his father released after his 3 year contract and for whatever reason... bitter about all of it.

...

I like the metallic pin centre Poppies for my civilian outerwear. I have a different style pin that I wear on my civy-side job uniform only because they're pretty restrictive on what is permitted and what isn't (undress ribbons, Jump wings, are okay. Poppy, not okay because of the straight pin potential usage as weapon against us). The people at the Staff College had no problems with the pin in the attached photo. It's no bigger than the pad of the average thumb.


----------



## Danjanou

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> One thing that bugs me... in my area there's a particular table of Legion members, I don't know if they are relatives of someone who served or what but always hearing "would you like to buy a poppy"/"poppy sales" just irks me. By absolute technical definition, they're free and you donate... but I digress.



God sometimes the Legion is it's own worst enemy. Poppies are never sold and should never be referreed to as buying selling. You're right they're free  and if one wants a donation would be nice.


----------



## JorgSlice

Danjanou said:
			
		

> God sometimes the Legion is it's own worst enemy. Poppies are never sold and should never be referreed to as buying selling. You're right they're free  and if one wants a donation would be nice.



A pretty rickety elderly man showed up to collect the donation bins, he wasn't even wearing a poppy... it was the 10th of last year  ???


----------



## 2010newbie

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> That's 3 poppy "donation" boxes I've came across with "these are not free" wrote on the side in marker.
> Really?how much is the required donation?



That sounds like a problem with the specific branch in your area. Each box will also have the Legion Branch written on the back and it should be brought to their attention that what they are doing is not correct. I have been distributing poppies the last couple years and the Executive at my branch have always been explicit that we are distributing, not selling.


----------



## Danjanou

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> That's 3 poppy "donation" boxes I've came across with "these are not free" wrote on the side in marker.
> Really?how much is the required donation?





			
				2010newbie said:
			
		

> That sounds like a problem with the specific branch in your area. Each box will also have the Legion Branch written on the back and it should be brought to their attention that what they are doing is not correct. I have been distributing poppies the last couple years and the Executive at my branch have always been explicit that we are distributing, not selling.



Agreed, contact the branch or probaly higher up in the  RCL chain of Command (Zone, District or Provincial Comd) . PM  me and I'll get you the contact info or send me a cell phone pioc of the box and I'll make sure someone is aware of it. Not only is this a big no no it is petty and self defeating.  And I was wondering how and where the RCL was going to screw up this year during Poppy season.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Agreed, contact the branch or probaly higher up in the  RCL chain of Command (Zone, District or Provincial Comd) . PM  me and I'll get you the contact info or send me a cell phone pioc of the box and I'll make sure someone is aware of it. Not only is this a big no no it is petty and self defeating.  And I was wondering how and where the RCL was going to screw up this year during Poppy season.



3 different towns believe it or not (well 2 and a city). I'll follow up on it.


----------



## mariomike

TORONTO, ON, October 30, 2012 

"McDonald’s Canada develops solution that allows employees to wear poppies to commemorate Remembrance Day:
Company sought counsel of Royal Canadian Legion to find option that balances food safety with the desire to honour Canada’s Veterans":
http://www.mcdonalds.ca/ca/en/our_story/corporate_info/press_room/PR_Remembrance_Day.html

( This was discussed in reply #381. )


----------



## Pieman

Wait for it...

Junkies and other low lives are rubbing hands together getting ready to snag containers from poppy funds.......

....news articles a couple days later come out saying someone stole poppy funds from store X. 

.....everyone get ready to be shocked and outraged by the theft (which happens every single year without fail)

Wait until next year to continue the cycle.  :facepalm:


----------



## Sythen

Pieman said:
			
		

> Wait for it...
> 
> Junkies and other low lives are rubbing hands together getting ready to snag containers from poppy funds.......
> 
> ....news articles a couple days later come out saying someone stole poppy funds from store X.
> 
> .....everyone get ready to be shocked and outraged by the theft (which happens every single year without fail)
> 
> Wait until next year to continue the cycle.  :facepalm:



Since it happens often, we shouldn't be offended by it! Since we all know its coming, we shouldn't still be shocked that people can do these things! Because Pieman finds it tedious, we should stop caring!  :sarcasm:


----------



## Pieman

I was not indicating that I found it tedious, nor was I indicating that one should stop caring.

Rather, I was trying to point out the cycle that happens every year. It's like watching someone repeatedly fill a tire with a small hole in it, and they act all shocked with the tire needs to be filled up again. The solution of course is to fix or replace the tire.

Perhaps it's time to look at a different way to collect the money. Or a way to keep the poppy fund boxes more secure. There are always going to be people out there who simply don't care and will take advantage of the situation.


----------



## JorgSlice

:goodpost:


----------



## ArmyRick

Treat the problems not the symptoms!


----------



## OldSolduer

ArmyRick said:
			
		

> Treat the problems not the symptoms!



Yes, usually with a swift kick to the....oh sorry. I forgot, we have to be "nice" and "understanding" to our poor unfortunate brethern who have addled their brains with drugs and alchohol and have to resort to thievery to support their habits.


----------



## Danjanou

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Yes, usually with a swift kick to the....oh sorry. I forgot, we have to be "nice" and "understanding" to our poor unfortunate brethern who have addled their brains with drugs and alchohol and have to resort to thievery to support their habits.



We do? damn I must have missed that memo at work. >


----------



## The Bread Guy

Pieman said:
			
		

> Wait for it...
> 
> Junkies and other low lives are rubbing hands together getting ready to snag containers from poppy funds.......
> 
> ....news articles a couple days later come out saying someone stole poppy funds from store X.
> 
> .....everyone get ready to be shocked and outraged by the theft (which happens every single year without fail)
> 
> Wait until next year to continue the cycle.  :facepalm:


Correct!





> A 29-year-old man is accused of stealing Remembrance Day poppy boxes from four different businesses in this southern Ontario town.
> 
> Police said they were able to identify the suspect with the help of video surveillance. The poppy boxes had been reported stolen from three Tim Hortons locations and a Wendy’s restaurant.
> 
> The man is charged with three counts of theft and one count of breach of recognizance.
> 
> He remains in custody.
> 
> And a 22-year-old Tillsonburg, Ont., man faces theft charges after removing a poppy donation box ifrom a Delhi, Ont., liquor store.
> 
> About around 2:40 p.m. Monday, a man was seen entering the LCBO store on James Street and left with the donation box.
> 
> The store manager gave police a description of the man, which led to his arrest.
> 
> “Regardless of the amount” the action was deplorable considering it was a donation box, Norfolk County OPP media relations officer Const. Ed Sanchuk said ....


QMI/Sun Media, 5 Nov 12


----------



## 2 Cdo

Sorry but theft of Poppy Boxes hasn't shocked me for several years now. I would find it shocking if NOT ONE box was stolen.


----------



## Maxadia

Not sure about the rest of you, but this has become so frequent, that any time I see a poppy box I find myself watching the people around it.


----------



## OldSolduer

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> Sorry but theft of Poppy Boxes hasn't shocked me for several years now. I would find it shocking if NOT ONE box was stolen.



That would be more shocking than the thefts, which aren't shocking at all any more. What is shocking is there hasn't been an instance of "street justice" being handed out to one of these lowlifes....oops I mean poor misunderstood, disenfranchised, oppressed etc .


----------



## Pat in Halifax

There was story (I think on here somewhere) about 3 Marines in civis being accosted by a mugger with a knife. In the aftermath, one of the Marines was treated at the scene for a minor cut while the mugger was taken to hospital with a broken leg, dislocated shoulder and concussion sufferred when he 'fell'.

Is this what you mean Jim?!


----------



## MMSS

Pat in Halifax said:
			
		

> There was story (I think on here somewhere) about 3 Marines in civis being accosted by a mugger with a knife. In the aftermath, one of the Marines was treated at the scene for a minor cut while the mugger was taken to hospital with a broken leg, dislocated shoulder and concussion sufferred when he 'fell'.
> 
> Is this what you mean Jim?!



This is partially true; a Marine was attacked, and his assailant apprehended. The injuries are an invented punch line.

Source: http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/stabbedmarine.asp


----------



## observor 69

In my local Timmies today, the poppy coin box is mounted on a piece of heavy plastic along with the debit/Timmies card machine.  8)

The Timmies employee said now they are trying to steal the poppy box.  :


----------



## Pieman

> Sorry but theft of Poppy Boxes hasn't shocked me for several years now. I would find it shocking if NOT ONE box was stolen.


ha, good one!  



> The Timmies employee said now they are trying to steal the poppy box.


Nice! Steal plastic poppy to sell off and buy an injectable poppy.  Should put a box of clean needles next the box of poppies now.


----------



## Danjanou

Just spent another full day out poppying (took a weeks vacation to do so this week  because 80% of Legion members can't be assed to adhere to the oath they took to participate in the poppy campaign). For some reason no one seems to want to try and grab the box from me >


----------



## krustyrl

Thanks for dedicating some of your personal time to participate, Danjanou  !    :remembrance:


----------



## Pieman

> Just spent another full day out poppying (took a weeks vacation to do so this week  because 80% of Legion members can't be assed to adhere to the oath they took to participate in the poppy campaign). For some reason no one seems to want to try and grab the box from me >



Are you out distributing/collecting the donation boxes? Or selling the poppies in person? I  honestly have never seen someone going around selling the poppies directly before, just the donation boxes in stores.


----------



## Fishbone Jones

Pieman said:
			
		

> Are you out distributing/collecting the donation boxes? Or selling the poppies in person? I  honestly have never seen someone going around selling the poppies directly before, just the donation boxes in stores.



Do you live in a closet, or a small town of 12?

Seriously, you've never seen anyone selling poppies? 

You served, why don't you belong to the Legion?


----------



## Pieman

> Do you live in a closet, or a small town of 12?
> 
> Seriously, you've never seen anyone selling poppies?
> 
> You served, why don't you belong to the Legion?



Nope, I don't live in a closet the last time I checked.  I've been to many cities in Canada, and no never seen anyone sell poppies in person that I can recall. 
I'm actually in Ottawa at moment, and haven't run across anyone selling in person thus far either. Perhaps I crossed paths with someone selling them and just never noticed.

As for the Legion, I joined initially but I  found quite a large age gap between most members and myself, and I did not feel comfortable there. Perhaps I will get more involved in the future, but for now I don't have much of a connection with it. I have been more involved with the Military Museum so far, interacting with some of the library research members who are collecting information on Afghanistan etc.


----------



## Danjanou

Out all day subway station and shopping mall, where ever they want me to be. Some of the older guys drive around and restock the counter boxes.


----------



## the 48th regulator

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Out all day subway station and shopping mall, where ever they want me to be. Some of the older guys drive around and restock the counter boxes.



Saw two of them sitting with three boxes, at the Mcdonalds in the Local Walmart.  the just stared down anyone without a poppy.

Meh, just walked by them,  and had no poppy on.  Not by choice, as it was sitting in the boot of my Jeep, where it fell......

dileas

tess


----------



## Journeyman

Danjanou said:
			
		

> Some of the older guys drive around and restock the counter boxes.


I'm having trouble with the concept of anyone that _you'd_ refer to as "older" would still be allowed to drive.  




Sorry? Kiss your what?!  :-*


----------



## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> I'm having trouble with the concept of anyone that _you'd_ refer to as "older" would still be allowed to drive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry? Kiss your what?!  :-*



for the record you are actually older than me. I said older not more mature, although we're both behind the curve in that regard. :-*


----------



## Michael OLeary

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Meh, just walked by them,  and had no poppy on.  Not by choice, as it was sitting in the boot of my Jeep, where it fell......



If you attached it with a lapel pin, you wouldn't lose them like that all the time.

Personally, I suggest a regimental cap badge pin, and then see if anyone says that somehow insults the memory of the soldiers that died wearing it.


----------



## Tibbson

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2014/10/03/21984606.html

I must admit, I'm both shocked/apauled and, since we are talking about a politician, not surprised at the same time.


----------



## DAA

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2014/10/03/21984606.html
> 
> I must admit, I'm both shocked/apauled and, since we are talking about a politician, not surprised at the same time.



And it seems that his Parliamentary Assistant supports this position as well.

"Andrej Litvinjenko, Aspin's parliamentary assistant, said there are no exceptions to bylaws included in the Board of Internal Economy, which state an MP can only use funds and premises provided by the House to “carry out their parliamentary function.”


----------



## jollyjacktar

This time next year, I hope to be wearing a hard hat instead of a beret etc.  I have seen poppy decals on some of the hard hats worn by civvies at the yard, but they obtained them several years ago.  Does anyone know where these decals might be available nowadays?


----------



## Tibbson

jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> This time next year, I hope to be wearing a hard hat instead of a beret etc.  I have seen poppy decals on some of the hard hats worn by civvies at the yard, but they obtained them several years ago.  Does anyone know where these decals might be available nowadays?



Most times I've seen a table set up in a mall or grocery store offering poppies I've noted they have the standard pin/plastic poppies, enamel lapel pin type and stickers for those who do not wish to pin one on.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for them.  I've only seen as I mentioned above.


----------



## Danjanou

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2014/10/03/21984606.html
> 
> I must admit, I'm both shocked/apauled and, since we are talking about a politician, not surprised at the same time.



I'm curious as to why someone is handing out boxes now. The Poppy campaign does not start until October 31, 2014. Fifty years in the Legion and apparantly the rules don't apply to him  :



			
				jollyjacktar said:
			
		

> This time next year, I hope to be wearing a hard hat instead of a beret etc.  I have seen poppy decals on some of the hard hats worn by civvies at the yard, but they obtained them several years ago.  Does anyone know where these decals might be available nowadays?



There are Poppy stickers or decals available. I usually have a roll in my box when out. They're usually for little kids and people like Journeyman who could  may injury themsleves with a pin, but would work for hardhats to. Just ask, someone should be able to accomadate you.


----------



## Pat in Halifax

31 Oct? I didn't realize that though I don't recall the one year I did that at Sobeys (I know, I am a bad sailor!-Will do it this year)
They are authorized for uniform wear the last Thursday of October (which is actually the day before this year).

Pat


----------



## Danjanou

The Poppy Campaign traditionally runs from the last friday in October until Nov 11th. 
http://www.legion.ca/honour-remember/the-poppy-campaign/

The GG and the Provincial LGs usually recieve a ceremonial first poppy sometime during the week leadign up to the official start form the Dominion or Provincial Presidents.

Incidentally the campaign will be a short one this year ( 12 days) and that may affect total revenues I'm guessing.


----------



## DAA

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2014/10/03/21984606.html
> 
> I must admit, I'm both shocked/apauled and, since we are talking about a politician, not surprised at the same time.



Uh oh, it's back peddling time...........seems there may have been a "misunderstanding" of the policy!    :facepalm:

http://www.nugget.ca/2014/10/08/legionnaire-feels-vindicated


----------



## Danjanou

Love the comments, nice to know cyber stupidity and self righteous single mindedness is not limited to the GTA. BTW if that's the Legion dud in the pic he's wearign his Poppy in the wrong spot on his lapel. :


----------



## Journeyman

Danjanou said:
			
		

> ....BTW if that's the *Legion dud   * in the pic......


Is that intentional or a Freudian typo?   ;D


----------



## Danjanou

Journeyman said:
			
		

> Is that intentional or a Freudian typo?   ;D



Hmmm good question, on reflection the second I would say 8)


----------



## The Bread Guy

Danjanou said:
			
		

> BTW if that's the Legion dud in the pic he's wearign his Poppy in the wrong spot on his lapel. :


Even *better* - it's MP Jay Aspin himself....





From the MP's parliamentary profile:


----------



## Danjanou

In that case not wrong. The Legion member should know the Poppy goes above the lapel pin :


----------



## Fishbone Jones

If a person, who wants to be mindful of the Act of Remembrance, and wishes to wear a poppy all year long, the more power to them. Copyright or not, the RCL will not dictate what I can or cannot do. Especially, when it's mostly now civvies who've never served a day in their lives.

If I decide to wear my poppy tomorrow, who really cares.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Exactly.  If l can find the poppy sticker for my anticipated hard hat I'll need when l retire next spring, it will be worn on it 365.


----------



## ace1125

Did anyone hear about the white poppy last year? I am not sure if they've been around for a while or just showed up last year... Anyways, people claim they wear them because the red poppy supports war, just stupid and insulting. I really hope they don't make a return this year.


----------



## ModlrMike

ace1125 said:
			
		

> Did anyone hear about the white poppy last year? I am not sure if they've been around for a while or just showed up last year... Anyways, people claim they wear them because the red poppy supports war, just stupid and insulting. I really hope they don't make a return this year.



Tons of material on this subject if you choose to look for it. Let's not open that can of worms again.


----------



## Danjanou

recceguy said:
			
		

> If a person, who wants to be mindful of the Act of Remembrance, and wishes to wear a poppy all year long, the more power to them. Copyright or not, the RCL will not dictate what I can or cannot do. Especially, when it's mostly now civvies who've never served a day in their lives.
> 
> If I decide to wear my poppy tomorrow, who really cares.



Not disagreeing with you in fact I agree 100%. I just posted the official RCL stance. As with several other stances they take I think they need changing.


----------



## TCM621

http://www.edmontonsun.com/2014/11/02/cadets-distributing-poppies-turned-away-at-edmonton-store



> A group of cadets volunteering to distribute Remembrance Day poppies were turned away at Cabela’s in North Edmonton, an act one legion representative calls disappointing.
> 
> “The management of Cabela’s informed them that, no, they weren’t welcome there,” said Greg Laskey, cadet liaison and poppy fund representative for the Royal Canadian Legion Norwood Branch.
> 
> According to Laskey, a group of volunteers dispatched from the Royal Canadian Legion Kingsway Branch for the kick-off of the Poppy Fund Campaign were invited to offer Remembrance Day poppies at the Cabela’s store at 15320 37 Ave. by an employee, the father of one of the cadets.
> 
> When they arrived, management allegedly told the volunteers they had to leave, saying the employee didn’t have the authority to allow them on the premises.
> 
> Laskey was surprised at the reaction, saying the cadets are generally welcomed across the city and are accustomed to working with local retailers and shopping malls to ensure they don’t disrupt customers.
> 
> This is the only time that Laskey can recall a cadet group canvassing for the poppy fund being ejected from a site.
> 
> “Things like that, it kind of rubs you the wrong way,” said Laskey.
> 
> Cabela’s Retail Canada Inc. could not be reached for comment. The cadets were dispatched to a new location without incident.
> 
> Canadians have been wearing the bright red Remembrance Day poppies since 1921 as a visual reminder to never forget Canadians who have laid down their lives during military operations.
> 
> The Royal Canadian Legion’s Poppy Fund campaign distributes the poppy pins annually while collecting donations to provide assistance for ex-servicemen and women in need. Canadian cadet organizations offer programming to help create youth leaders with a focus on strong Canadian and military values, and are an integral part of the annual poppy campaign.
> 
> While this incident at Cabela’s was disappointing, said Laskey, it was also the first year cadets have been stationed at Rexall Place during an Oilers Game, where volunteers raised over $3,500 in bills and filled three full buckets of change yet to be counted.
> 
> “We did very well, and people commended us for what we were doing,” Laskey said.


----------



## Michael OLeary

Perhaps if Legion branches made prior arrangements with the companies where they wanted to position poppy distributors, we wouldn't see these stories every year trying to shame stores when employees follow company polices.


----------



## SeaKingTacco

Yeah, I am actually getting a bit tired of the "we are the Royal Canadian Legion and we demand the right to sell poppies wherever we want" schtick, every single year....


----------



## Remius

Agreed with both posters above.

 :nod:


----------



## Edward Campbell

Crantor said:
			
		

> Agreed with both posters above.
> 
> :nod:




Me too. I am about 95% certain that if these incident didn't pop up on their own the RCL would stage them to drum up _faux_ public outrage.


----------



## George Wallace

I think we need to look into some of these claims a little more closely, and not jump immediately into panic mode.  I found these two statements on another media and am looking for links to the sources at the moment:



> Cabelas does a Hometown Heroes event twice a year. The other Cabelas in Edmonton south did have the cadets on-site over the weekend. This is a case of ONE IDIOT at ONE STORE not the WHOLE CHAIN.





> Their Head Office said this:
> "Our Canadian team at our head office in Winnipeg and our local stores across Canada have a long standing and proud record of support for the cadets and our Canadian military. We truly value what they do and have done for us.
> We apologize for what happened and are in communication to reschedule the cadets to be on-site at our North Edmonton store."



================================================================

http://o.canada.com/news/national/cadets-turned-away-from-selling-poppies-at-edmonton-store



> Cabela’s issued a statement on their Facebook page on Monday morning responding to the trouble.
> 
> “Our sincerest apologies on what happened in Edmonton at our store this past weekend,” the company wrote.
> 
> “This was sincerely an unfortunate case of miscommunication on our part at our Edmonton North location. Our store in Edmonton south did have the cadets on-site over the weekend, and we have had poppies available in both locations since last week. Our Canadian team at our head office in Winnipeg and our local stores across Canada have a long standing and proud record of support for the cadets and our Canadian military. We truly value what they do and have done for us. We apologize for what happened and are in communication to reschedule the cadets to be on-site at our North Edmonton store.”


----------



## Jarnhamar

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Yeah, I am actually getting a bit tired of the "we are the Royal Canadian Legion and we demand the right to sell poppies wherever we want" schtick, every single year....



Wait until the Legion starts taking people to court for poppy tattoo's and copyright infringement 
   
I'm with you though, it's the same thing every year, year after year.


----------



## medicineman

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Wait until the Legion starts taking people to court for poppy tattoo's and copyright infringement



That will be interesting - copyright on a naturally occurring flower... op:

MM


----------



## George Wallace

medicineman said:
			
		

> That will be interesting - copyright on a naturally occurring flower... op:
> 
> MM



Perhaps they have been partaking in the product of a certain species of said flower.


----------



## Privateer

They have a statutory trademark over at least certain depictions of the poppy, granted to them by the federal _Act to Incorporate the Royal Canadian Legion_, S.C. 1948, c. 84, as amended, section 15


----------



## Jarnhamar

medicineman said:
			
		

> That will be interesting - copyright on a naturally occurring flower... op:
> 
> MM



This still blows me away.
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/joe_warmington/2009/11/06/11653971-sun.html


> Imagine even the suggestion that a Cobourg bakery, fulfilling the *order of some poppy cookies for the family of a fallen Canadian soldier from the Afghanistan conflict*, would be breaking the copyright rules for the poppy?
> 
> "That would be a violation of the trademark," explains Royal Canadian Legion spokesman Bob Butt, adding the legion understands people are "well meaning" *when they use the poppy and unaware of the rules.*
> 
> But rules are rules.
> "You would not believe the *misuses of the poppy we have to investigate*," Butt says.
> 
> Unaware of this copyright, the people at the Dutch Oven Bakery say that, now that they know, "we won't fulfil the order if asked again next year."


----------



## medicineman

Privateer said:
			
		

> They have a statutory trademark over at least certain depictions of the poppy, granted to them by the federal _Act to Incorporate the Royal Canadian Legion_, S.C. 1948, c. 84, as amended, section 15



I can just see the sentencing hearings at the class action suit against everyone with a Legionesque poppy tattoo on them, having a court order to have it modified or sandblasted off your body with in "X" number of days...that would be interesting.

Again - op:

MM


----------



## Harris

My Regimental Assn made up coins with tha names of members who fell during WWII.  If you join the Assn you get a coin and are asked to research the soldier who is on your coin.  They also included a picture of our Regimental memorial.  They asked the Legion if they could put a poppy on either side and were denied permission.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Too easy - if these are copyright in Canada ....









.... and this is copyright in the U.K. ....




.... then someone should come up with a _three_-petal poppy to use.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Harris said:
			
		

> My Regimental Assn made up coins with tha names of members who fell during WWII.  If you join the Assn you get a coin and are asked to research the soldier who is on your coin.  They also included a picture of our Regimental memorial.  T*hey asked the Legion if they could put a poppy on either side and were denied permission.*



 :facepalm:


----------



## kratz

Reference: Thieves swipe Calgary poppy boxes 

One of this year's obligatory news reports of poppy box thefts.


----------



## opcougar

A local legion was venting that people should NOT wear poppies with the Canadian flag on them. They reckon it's insulting and that the 2 should be separated. Another legion on the news yesterday was moaning that young Vets aren't joining the club e.g. Army - Navy club in Hamilton to keep the tradition going, and that they are not making money.

Lets be fair...a lot of these legions need modernizing, and young people don't exactly see it as Moxies, Lone Star, Jack Tuesdays, Don Cherry's, etc



			
				Jarnhamar said:
			
		

> Wait until the Legion starts taking people to court for poppy tattoo's and copyright infringement
> 
> I'm with you though, it's the same thing every year, year after year.


----------



## Jarnhamar

opcougar said:
			
		

> A local legion was venting that people should NOT wear poppies with the Canadian flag on them.



Not surprised in the least.


----------



## Stoker

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Too easy - if these are copyright in Canada ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... and this is copyright in the U.K. ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... then someone should come up with a _three_-petal poppy to use.



Apparently the legion claims all poppy like symbols even if its like the UK one....

Just realized I was replying to a year old post


----------



## Pusser

opcougar said:
			
		

> A local legion was venting that people should NOT wear poppies with the Canadian flag on them. They reckon it's insulting and that the 2 should be separated. Another legion on the news yesterday was moaning that young Vets aren't joining the club e.g. Army - Navy club in Hamilton to keep the tradition going, and that they are not making money.
> 
> Lets be fair...a lot of these legions need modernizing, and young people don't exactly see it as Moxies, Lone Star, Jack Tuesdays, Don Cherry's, etc



Some clever guy has started manufacturing pins (http://poppypins.com/) that look like the center of the RCL's poppy.  The idea is that it provides a means to both keep your poppy in place and not prick you every time you move your hand past it.  The Legion claims it "defaces" the poppy and should not be used.  I just ordered a bunch.

I now also have yet another reason not to join the Legion...


----------



## Stoker

Pusser said:
			
		

> Some clever guy has started manufacturing pins (http://poppypins.com/) that look like the center of the RCL's poppy.  The idea is that it provides a means to both keep your poppy in place and not prick you every time you move your hand past it.  The Legion claims it "defaces" the poppy and should not be used.  I just ordered a bunch.
> 
> I now also have yet another reason not to join the Legion...



I think the last thing the legion wants is have a permanent poppy and they want people to make another donation if one loses it. Its become a money making racket for them when the original intent for selling poppies was to provide employment for disabled veterans. I heard of the legion going after people "infringing" on the copyright.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> Apparently the legion claims all poppy like symbols even if its like the UK one....


It's interestingly phrased here:


> .... the Canadian Trademark for the Poppy includes both the Legion’s Poppy logo, as well as the Poppy symbol, as it relates to Remembrance ....


I wonder if the British Legion would jump on the Canadian Legion "claiming" the two-petal version if it came to it?


----------



## Sigs Pig

From the Legion Poppy Manual



> RIGHTS OUTSIDE CANADA
> 719.
> The rights obtained by registering the trademark in Canada
> do not extend outside Canada.



ME


----------



## Danjanou

Pusser said:
			
		

> ...I now also have yet another reason not to join the Legion...




or conversely another reason to join the legion and help change some of this rampant institutional stupidity.


----------



## Blackadder1916

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> I wonder if the British Legion would jump on the Canadian Legion "claiming" the two-petal version if it came to it?



I don't know if the British Legion executive are as big "a-holes" as their Canadian counterparts but they do seem to have the same protection for their "brand" (that's the word they use on their website).

http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/about-us/our-brand/


> The Legion's 2-petal poppy is a registered trademark and should not be used without permission. Additionally, as the national custodian of Remembrance the Legion will take action against companies who are deemed to be infringing its trademark by commercially benefiting from this during the Remembrance period, or at any other time.
> 
> To prevent being in breach and to follow best practice as required by the Charity Commission, it is essential to enter into a commercial partnership agreement with the Legion to obtain a licence.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

At the very least, the explanation given by the British Legion is more in line with intelligent application of the trademark they are granted:  "_infringing its trademark by commercially benefiting from..._". 

In the "RCL Whither..." thread, someone posted about the Canadian Legion bitchin' and throwing its "trademark weight" at a poor bakery which, at specific request of one individual purchaser made for his/her own private purpose, baked a single cake in the shape of a remembrance day poppy. That is not "commercially benefiting from the use of the poppy. If that bakery, without anyone's specific request had baked half a dozen of them and put them on display for sale in the days leading to November 11, that would be different.

The analogy here is the same difference as someone going to a baker and ordering a Donald Duck cake for his kid's birthday instead of baking it himself, for which Disney would have no recourse, or the same bakery baking half a dozen Donald Duck cakes once a week for general display and sale, which would be infringement.


----------



## The Bread Guy

Sad this has to be considered, but these are the times we're in, I guess.


> Every year, we hear of heartbreaking stories of thieves snatching donation bins meant for the Legion’s Poppy Campaign, but one Calgary businessman hopes his solution will make criminals pass on robbing veterans.
> 
> Dan Kroffat says that his redesigned poppy box can’t be stolen.
> 
> The bin itself is made of composite metal and is attached to the store’s counter with a wire.
> 
> He says his redesign should stop spontaneous thefts of poppy boxes that account for 75 percent of incidents.
> 
> Kroffat says the inspiration for the change came from the amount of thefts in the news last year.
> 
> "I saw in the newspaper, there was a story about these veterans, their money was stolen. I said, 'next to that is stealing money from children'. When you think of the money and the value this plays in sustaining their lives, add to that, this. The veterans, a large, large amount of veterans are living below the poverty line, a large number, hundreds are living on the streets. I got pissed off and said 'we need to fix this'."
> 
> He's has built 50 of the prototype boxes and plans to put them in place as a test in Cochrane businesses ...


----------



## jollyjacktar

Great idea, but I wonder how many thefts happen in Cochran?


----------



## mariomike

Saw this in our local news,

Toronto man faces 19 charges in alleged poppy box thefts
http://www.680news.com/2016/11/14/toronto-man-faces-19-charges-alleged-poppy-box-thefts/

Comments: "A quick Google search shows this guy is an aggressive panhandler who was jailed for threating TTC employees. Also a poppy donation thief apparently. Back to jail… not the first time and not the last."

Same alleged perp?
https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/02/13/panhandler_jailed_for_threatening_to_kill_ttc_workers.html


----------



## Blackadder1916

I hadn't seen many posts this year about poppies, so I was wondering if the usual annual bitching was over.  However being the sometimes crotchety old bastard that I can be, I thought I should vent in the spirit of the season.

The new thingy on the poppy pin.

So, when I got my poppy this year (I get a few each year, even though I have a collection dating back years and years), the Legion volunteer (wearing a maroon beret, PPCLI cap badge and a few UN medals, so he can't be all bad) made a specific effort to bring to my attention the tiny piece of plastic on the end of the pin and commented that I "wouldn't lose the poppy now".  Well, by the time that I got home, the poppy was gone.  The pin and plastic thingy was still in my jacket, but the red and black portions were gone; I assumed that the holes in those parts were a little larger than the head of the pin and they slipped off.  The next day, the same sorta happened to the replacement that I bought, however this time it was only the black piece that ended up AWOL.

Fashion item poppy.

Watching Power and Politics today, I noticed the host, Duncan McCue, wearing a large, garish, poppy that appears to be made of some sort of beading.  If the item was provided by some alternative veterans organization, how long before the Legion objects?


----------



## gryphonv

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The new thingy on the poppy pin.
> 
> 
> Fashion item poppy.
> 
> Watching Power and Politics today, I noticed the host, Duncan McCue, wearing a large, garish, poppy that appears to be made of some sort of beading.  If the item was provided by some alternative veterans organization, how long before the Legion objects?



Yeah I just watched this. Definitely an eyesore to me. The shiny beads around it was a bit too flashy for my liking. It was fairly overstated.


----------



## ballz

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> The new thingy on the poppy pin.
> 
> So, when I got my poppy this year (I get a few each year, even though I have a collection dating back years and years), the Legion volunteer (wearing a maroon beret, PPCLI cap badge and a few UN medals, so he can't be all bad) made a specific effort to bring to my attention the tiny piece of plastic on the end of the pin and commented that I "wouldn't lose the poppy now".  Well, by the time that I got home, the poppy was gone.  The pin and plastic thingy was still in my jacket, but the red and black portions were gone; I assumed that the holes in those parts were a little larger than the head of the pin and they slipped off.  The next day, the same sorta happened to the replacement that I bought, however this time it was only the black piece that ended up AWOL.



I saw someone wearing those, I guess they just pushed the whole thing (white piece and all) through the poppy and made the hole too big? I just use a pair of pliers and bend the metal, they don't go anywhere after that.


----------



## Navy_Pete

I think I've found different bits of about two dozen poppies on the ground between late last week and today; enjoying my poppy pin center so far! Pretty good deal, and I can stop worrying about it flying off my jacket when walking around.


----------



## donaldk

Navy_Pete said:
			
		

> I think I've found different bits of about two dozen poppies on the ground between late last week and today; enjoying my poppy pin center so far! Pretty good deal, and I can stop worrying about it flying off my jacket when walking around.



Had some fun trolling the local legion about the 'stabbers' and the use of a non-official center.  The lecture I got from my barkeeper was priceless (and not to get caught in my branch with one)...  legion is still steadfast at using their stupid stabbers (well they do have a $40 brooch but its no good for DEU use - https://www.poppystore.ca/brooches-2/poppy-brooch-300650)


----------



## Strike

I push the pin back through the poppy before hiding the end in my clothes.  Haven't lost a poppy yet since using this method, and it was taught to me by a Legion poppy distributor a few years back.  I made sure to show everyone this last year when I was working the poppy drive.


----------



## IceBlue

ballz said:
			
		

> I saw someone wearing those, I guess they just pushed the whole thing (white piece and all) through the poppy and made the hole too big? I just use a pair of pliers and bend the metal, they don't go anywhere after that.




Lost mine just this morning as I was entering the building for work, the only good thing I'll ever say about Esquimalt was that I never lost my poppy last year because they approved the metal centers.


----------



## Blackadder1916

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> Fashion item poppy.
> 
> Watching Power and Politics today, I noticed the host, Duncan McCue, wearing a large, garish, poppy that appears to be made of some sort of beading.  If the item was provided by some alternative veterans organization, how long before the Legion objects?



I did complain comment by email to the CBC about Mr. McCue's choice of poppy.  They replied today.



> CBC Audience Services (CBC)
> 
> Nov 7, 12:57 EST
> 
> Hello Mr. Xxxxxxxx,
> 
> Thank you for your email. Mr. McCue was wearing a hand-beaded poppy which was made to bring recognition to and support Indigenous veterans. As you can read in this article on CBC.ca from 2015, the Canadian Legion has indicates that it supports the sale and wearing of these unique poppies so long as they are not produced for commercial purposes.
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/aboriginal-veterans-remembrance-poppy-beaded-1.3313082
> 
> We hope this information is helpful.
> 
> Best regards,
> Naill Cameron
> CBC Audience Services
> 
> 
> Xxxxxxxxx
> 
> Nov 6, 18:40 EST
> 
> I watched Power and Politics on 6 November 2017 and was somewhat stunned by the large, garish "poppy" worn by that day's host, Duncan McCue. While I have no problem with individuals declining to wear a poppy during the traditional period leading up to Remembrance Day, my expectation would be that, should one wear a poppy (especially if an employee of a government funded entity like the CBC), it be the standard Royal Canadian Legion poppy instead of a jewellery item that says more about the fashion choice of the person wearing it rather than the sentiments expressed in the emblem of remembrance. If the item worn by Mr. McCue was provided by a veterans organization, perhaps one that caters to aboriginal veterans, I wonder what policy they have in regards to the manufacture and use of the symbol that is limited by law to the Legion.
> 
> Xxxxxxx Xxxxxxxx


----------



## Jarnhamar

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/misleading-poppy-doughnuts-pulled-from-calgary-tim-hortons-1.3670144

Tim Hortons wisely pulled their unauthorized poppy donuts, could've got real messy.


----------



## kratz

ref:  CBC.ca



> Legion commandeers Wounded Warriors Canada fundraising campaign over use of poppy
> Telus page commemorating fallen soldiers used trademarked poppy image
> By Robson Fletcher, CBC News




Lots of these media reports rolling in.


----------



## jollyjacktar

Seems like they can't resist being dicks each year.


----------



## donaldk

Big Spoon said:
			
		

> Lost mine just this morning as I was entering the building for work, the only good thing I'll ever say about Esquimalt was that I never lost my poppy last year because they approved the metal centers.



*Reference with originating authority please... I would LOVE to know *.  RCL will have kittens over this one if true and they see this thread 

Most of us wear a modded center with the premise of not getting 'caught'. I recall a CANFORGEN originating from the VCDS a few years back decreeing the wear of the poppy shall be only with that shitty pin AS RECEIVED and nothing else - NO MODS. I suspect the CANFORGEN was the result of some tired soul at Dominion Command complaining to our dress committee that CAF members were seen wearing modded poppies in uniform - I don't have DWAN access to back search but it is there.


----------



## Stoker

donaldk said:
			
		

> *Reference with originating authority please... I would LOVE to know *.  RCL will have kittens over this one if true and they see this thread
> 
> Most of us wear a modded center with the premise of not getting 'caught'. I recall a CANFORGEN originating from the VCDS a few years back decreeing the wear of the poppy shall be only with that shitty pin AS RECEIVED and nothing else - NO MODS. I suspect the CANFORGEN was the result of some tired soul at Dominion Command complaining to our dress committee that CAF members were seen wearing modded poppies in uniform - I don't have DWAN access to back search but it is there.



I know that last year the company who was selling the poppy pins was asked if they were supporting the legion with a portion of the profits. I guess they said they weren't and this year they are supporting the wounded warriors charity. I'm surprised that the legion is not getting after them.


----------



## Journeyman

Every year I buy two poppies and put them onto different jackets, with clasp-type pins.

The Poppy fund is up $10, and at this time of year, the _absolute_  last thing on my mind is caring about some Legion bureaucrat's hurt feelings.

I appreciate this campaign for raising awareness of Canada's veterans and military sacrifices;  beyond that, it's merely the Legion's annual re-affirmation of why I'd never join.


----------



## Jarnhamar

I picked up a poppy pin last year. Wore it once and was quickly told it was *ILLEGAL*. Not wanting to risk going to military prison I thanked my CoC for correcting me and switched back to the standard poppy center.






But speaking of illegal, does the RCL now own copyrights to all things poppy related? Even items that loosely resemble a poppy like a donut with jelly in the middle? Where the colour scheme doesn'y even match?













That's quite the copy right. 


I remember the centers used to be green. I wonder if the RCL extended the copyright to poppys with black centers. Any way to check?


----------



## dapaterson

There is an online tool at the industry Canada website that lets you investigate trademarks and copyrights. http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/home?lang=eng

Green centred poppy: http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark?id=0980289&lang=eng&tab=reg 

Black centred poppy: http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark?id=1094997&lang=eng&tab=reg


----------



## Stoker

dapaterson said:
			
		

> There is an online tool at the industry Canada website that lets you investigate trademarks and copyrights. http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/home?lang=eng
> 
> Green centred poppy: http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark?id=0980289&lang=eng&tab=reg
> 
> Black centred poppy: http://www.ic.gc.ca/app/opic-cipo/trdmrks/srch/viewTrademark?id=1094997&lang=eng&tab=reg



The legion loves to send letters to whoever they feel is violating their trademark, even when they don't have a chance of bringing them to court. That means someone selling beaded poppies for a fund raiser or whatever else legion members report to Dominion Command on. In truth they own the trademark to that exact poppy but they interpret that to mean any poppy, including the British legion poppy in Canada.

They claim to be the keepers of the poppy symbol but did you see some of the crap the sell at the legion poppy store.

https://www.poppystore.ca/


----------



## jollyjacktar

I believe Mother Nature copyrighted the Poppy design used by the Wounded Warriors, she won't mind it's use there.  The RCL should be told to go pound sand up their greedy backsides.


----------



## Navy_Pete

Maybe not the best time of year to ask, but long term, as the RCL represents less and less actual veterans, does anyone think there will be an alternative for members wearing RCL poppies?

With their petty pursuits of the trademark against non-profits, schools, and random internet forums, and the lack of financial accountability, I'd rather give my money to different organizations that actually support veterans, or wear one of the alternate poppies like the Aboriginal Veterans beaded ones.


----------



## Jarnhamar

[quote author=Navy Pete] 

With their petty pursuits of the trademark against non-profits, schools, and random internet forums[/QUOTE] 
Don't forget mothers of fallen soldiers. 


> and the lack of financial accountability



Since the RCL can request CAF members at events and soldiers are being paid (and ordered) to go the RCL should have 100% transparency with their finances, IF in fact they don't.

The RCL maneuvered themselves in to having the molopopy on rememberence day ceremonies and really remembrance day itself.  It's bad when I seen a poppy painted in the window of a restaurant today and my first thought was I wonder if they had to ask the legion permission to paint it.


----------



## Navy_Pete

They do post their finances on their website, as per the standard non-profit requirements, but their poppy fund seems to be outside of their operational budget. Also, I don't trust that all the money that goes in the boxes gets accounted for and assume some gets skimmed.

I'm torn though; there are still enough Korean era veterans out and about with the poppies that I donate when they are there, regardless of whether or not I already have a poppy.  I just wish the Dominion weren't such a flaming group of arseclowns, and that they hadn't sold us down the line by supporting the NVC. Not really sure how to support some of the members without inadvertently supporting the Legion, which lost it's way decades ago.

It's difficult in that I think regularly the sacrifice that past generations have made, and people still make today, but really dislike that it's been co-opted by the largely civilian RCL. Thousands of Canadians didn't lay down their lives storming the beaches so some group of numpties could sell (poor representations of) poppies made in China and bully people trying to raise money for actual veterans. At some point it will come to a head, their trademark will get squashed, and the money that should have been used for what it was meant for will be gone.


----------



## ModlrMike

So if I went to Flanders and took a photograph of poppies which I subsequently used on my own printed material, would I violate their copyright?


----------



## jollyjacktar

Love to see them claim copyright over nature.  Nature was there first.


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver

It's actually Chief Stoker who is the closest to the truth, but the Legion bullies people in thinking otherwise and they relent to avoid the threatened bad press of appearing to be going against "veterans" (as the Legion thinks of itself).

Trade marks protect the exact and specific mark that has been registered or  anything that is trying to mimic it closely enough to cause confusion of the mark. It does not, and especially with something that is otherwise a common object of specific meaning, protect against all such objects being used by someone else nor does it protect the meaning of the object.

For instance, Dove soap has a specific dove design trademarked, but they cannot stop anybody else using a dove - not of that design or close to it -to convey purity, or peace. No more than Apple can prevent people from using the word apple or photos/drawings of apples in their publicity so long as it causes no confusion with their trademarked logo.

So the Legion has no right to prevent people using drawings in general of poppies, or even less so actual pictures of poppies, so long as their design falls sufficiently far enough from their own design to avoid confusion with theirs, nor can they sue anyone merely for using  such other poppies in an association to remembrance of war dead.

For instance, I could make a site dedicated to Canadian soldiers who died in Afghanistan and start it, at the top with a title printed on top of a full width picture of a field of blooming poppies, and there is nothing the Legion could do successfully to contest such use. Similarly, I could take a picture of fields of poppies in bloom and print and sell ties made with the picture and they would be up schitt creek the same way. This is even more so when you consider (and court would!) that the association of the poppy with remembrance of the war dead did not originate with the Legion, but with John MacRae's poem.


----------



## Stoker

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> It's actually Chief Stoker who is the closest to the truth, but the Legion bullies people in thinking otherwise and they relent to avoid the threatened bad press of appearing to be going against "veterans" (as the Legion thinks of itself).
> 
> Trade marks protect the exact and specific mark that has been registered or  anything that is trying to mimic it closely enough to cause confusion of the mark. It does not, and especially with something that is otherwise a common object of specific meaning, protect against all such objects being used by someone else nor does it protect the meaning of the object.
> 
> For instance, Dove soap has a specific dove design trademarked, but they cannot stop anybody else using a dove - not of that design or close to it -to convey purity, or peace. No more than Apple can prevent people from using the word apple or photos/drawings of apples in their publicity so long as it causes no confusion with their trademarked logo.
> 
> So the Legion has no right to prevent people using drawings in general of poppies, or even less so actual pictures of poppies, so long as their design falls sufficiently far enough from their own design to avoid confusion with theirs, nor can they sue anyone merely for using  such other poppies in an association to remembrance of war dead.
> 
> For instance, I could make a site dedicated to Canadian soldiers who died in Afghanistan and start it, at the top with a title printed on top of a full width picture of a field of blooming poppies, and there is nothing the Legion could do successfully to contest such use. Similarly, I could take a picture of fields of poppies in bloom and print and sell ties made with the picture and they would be up schitt creek the same way. This is even more so when you consider (and court would!) that the association of the poppy with remembrance of the war dead did not originate with the Legion, but with John MacRae's poem.



The challenge coin company Sharkzcoins did a number of coins with their version of the poppy on it, which is different from the trademarked ones. Because its different the legion hasn't a legal leg to stand on. The average person when faced with a legal letter saying they should cease and desist, is going to do it. This is what the legion counts on.


----------



## Kat Stevens

paracord poppy, pin backed and bulletproof. Pucker up and plant one, poppy police.


----------



## TCM621

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> paracord poppy, pin backed and bulletproof. Pucker up and plant one, poppy police.


If you know where I could find how to make one of those, I'd be grateful.


----------



## Nfld Sapper

Chief Stoker said:
			
		

> The legion loves to send letters to whoever they feel is violating their trademark, even when they don't have a chance of bringing them to court. That means someone selling beaded poppies for a fund raiser or whatever else legion members report to Dominion Command on. In truth they own the trademark to that exact poppy but they interpret that to mean any poppy, including the British legion poppy in Canada.
> 
> They claim to be the keepers of the poppy symbol but did you see some of the crap the sell at the legion poppy store.
> 
> https://www.poppystore.ca/



Holy crap that's alot of poppy crap there...


----------



## Pusser

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> If you know where I could find how to make one of those, I'd be grateful.



Ashley's Book of Knots (available on line I believe).  The poppy knot depicted is a flattened turk's head.


----------



## Kat Stevens

It’s a four bight, three lead turkshead. The centre is the same knot in smaller cord. Flatten them out, glue one on top of the other and stick a back on it.


----------



## Pusser

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> It’s a four bight, three lead turkshead. The centre is the same knot in smaller cord. Flatten them out, glue one on top of the other and stick a back on it.



Now you're just showing off.  Most pongoes heads exploded when I just said it was a turk's head...


----------



## Blackadder1916

Pusser said:
			
		

> Now you're just showing off.  Most pongoes heads exploded when I just said it was a turk's head...



No, they didn't.  We were just a little jealous thinking about our forebearers in the early part of the last century who could actually "flatten a Turk's head" . . . probably with a shovel or some other implement of war.


_Edited to add_

And a turkshead is also known as a "woggle knot".  Should be familiar to any former Boy Scouts, though you only got to wear it after the Wood Badge.


----------



## Pusser

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> And a turkshead is also known as a "woggle knot".  Should be familiar to any former Boy Scouts, though you only got to wear it after the Wood Badge.



Correct.  I have one too.


----------



## TCM621

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> It’s a four bight, three lead turkshead. The centre is the same knot in smaller cord. Flatten them out, glue one on top of the other and stick a back on it.


Thanks to you and Pusser


----------



## mariomike

DaysGonez0 said:
			
		

> I heard that some stores are banning the practice.



Do you have a source?



> Global News
> November 14, 2019
> 
> poppies, according to the Royal Canadian Legion, are still popular.  The non-profit group that represents Canadian veterans distributes about 20 million poppies across Canada every year and brings in about a dollar each in donations, the organization says.
> 
> “The trend is steady,” says Legion spokesperson Nujma Bond.


----------



## kratz

One of the annual news reports:

ref: CTV.ca



> 'Stop trying to be Woke Foods': Staff poppy ban at Whole Foods stirs outcry
> 
> TORONTO -- Employees of international supermarket chain Whole Foods have been told not to wear Remembrance Day poppies because they don’t align with the company dress code.
> 
> “Whole Foods Market honours the men and women who have and continue to bravely serve their country. We support Remembrance Day in all of our Canadian stores by observing a moment of silence on November 11th and by donating to the Legion's Poppy Campaign. With the exception of those items required by law, our dress code policy prohibits any additions to our standard uniform," the company said in a statement.
> 
> Canadian politicians spoke out online against the company policy Friday morning, calling it “shameful and wrong.”
> 
> The dress code restriction even spurred Ontario Premier Doug Ford, who called the policy "disgusting and disgraceful," to announce he would seek legislation in the province to ban employers from prohibiting staff from wearing poppies during Remembrance Week.
> 
> Canada’s Minister of Veterans Affairs Lawrence MacAulay called the policy "absolutely unacceptable" on CTV News Channel on Friday.
> 
> "[Poppies are] to show respect for people who stood in danger for our freedom and democracy around the world. Quite simply it's totally unacceptable and hopefully they can change this quickly," he said.
> 
> Conservative Leader Erin O'Toole posted a video message online calling the dress code policy "stupid" in a tweet.
> 
> “The poppy is not a cause, it is a sign of respect,” O’Toole said. “The sacrifice of Canadians in the past provides the freedom for a US grocery chain to be stupid today … Let’s tell Whole Foods to stop trying to be Woke Foods.”
> 
> The new controversy follows another flashpoint around Whole Food uniforms earlier this year, when U.S. staff filed a federal lawsuit against their employer after they were told they couldn’t wear “Black Lives Matter” face coverings at work.
> 
> At the time, store managers also cited the same company dress code language, which forbids symbols and phrases not affiliated with Whole Foods.
> 
> “It was wrong when they banned staff expressing support for Black Lives Matter and it’s wrong to ban the Poppy,” wrote NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh on Twitter. “Canadians shouldn’t lose the right to honour the sacrifices of veterans when they go to work.”​
> 
> Mayors of two of Canada's largest cities responded to the news on Twitter, with Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson calling it "One of the most ridiculous decisions made by a company in recent memory" and Toronto Mayor John Tory urging the company to "rethink its unreasonable ban."
> 
> The poppy has long been a symbol of peace used to honour the memory of fallen soldiers from the First and Second World Wars, most often associated with a poem written in 1915 by Canadian physician Lt.-Col. John McCrae.
> 
> It’s disgusting and disgraceful that @WholeFoods has banned poppies for their employees. We will always stand with our veterans. Whole Foods should apologize and immediately reverse this decision. Everyone should wear a poppy #lestweforget.
> 
> — Doug Ford (@fordnation) November 6, 2020


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## blacktriangle

Classy.


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## Colin Parkinson

We don't expect to get much in the way of donations this year from the local legions, I think last year the West Van legion made some $95,000 in the poppy drive (don't quote me as I am going on memory and minimal coffee) My Navy League Corp gets some $4,000 a year from the local legions which really helps. With no tagging, no poppy sales we expect to be close to $9,000 short next year, thankfully we can just survive on money saved from this year and rental of our facilities.


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## CBH99

kratz said:
			
		

> One of the annual news reports:
> 
> ref: CTV.ca




It's sad that he has to explore introducing legislation in regards to this...decency and common sense would allow an employee to wear a poppy if they choose.  It's Remembrance Day for crying out loud, not the 'social justice issue of the month'.  

Beyond stupid...   :facepalm:



I've never thought about it before, but I guess it isn't illegal for an employer to tell their employees not to wear a poppy at work.  Laws eventually get passed because someone does something absurdly stupid... alas... this...


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## Haggis

This law hasn't passed and I don't think it should. It opens the door for all manner of special interest groups to demand that the wearing of their symbol of sacrifice, service or hardship be allowed in the workplace.

Like the Thin Blue Line...


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## Kat Stevens

Haggis said:
			
		

> This law hasn't passed and I don't think it should. It opens the door for all manner of special interest groups to demand that the wearing of their symbol of sacrifice, service or hardship be allowed in the workplace.
> 
> Like the Thin Blue Line...



Or the NBA, NFL, NHL, and MLB all wearing BLM (the organization, not the principle) patches?


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## BeyondTheNow

The issue is the interpretation of the symbol. Yes, the wearing of a poppy can be viewed as support of political issues to some (which isn’t permitted/protected under the Human Rights Codes within a workplace environment in ON), but the majority don’t view it as such. Most simply see the poppy as a symbol of respect and gratitude. Whereas several other insignia have clear-cut political messages behind them. 

I had a brief interaction about this w/ an acquaintance who’s well on their way to becoming a lawyer (they’re a CAF member). He personally agreed that the poppy isn’t political, and he explained how Freedom of Expression as provided in our Charter, and the Human Rights Codes which are provincially legislated, are separate. And yes, a workplace has every right to ban any emblem/symbol/marking etc falling under the listed articles, and include such measures in their employment policies/contracts. But it’s also very brain-dead to include the poppy. Unless a measured safety risk (think, perhaps, a daycare employee working with babies and toddlers—the pin falls off, a child grabs at it on the clothing, etc or something) I have personally never seen/heard of any company in the customer service industry in this country not allowing their employees to wear poppies. (Several fast food/restaurants allow it—except perhaps those working in the kitchens and/or there’s a policy that the simple pin design can’t be worn, but a more secure style with a backing—retail, grocers, hairstyling & other beauty services, etc) 

It’s a PR mess, especially in the NCR that Wholefoods could’ve avoided. Yes, they’re an Amer company, but someone in their Canadian offices should’ve had the forethought to address the matter. Instead, backlash was harsh and swift. 


For reference:


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## Haggis

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> The issue is the interpretation of the symbol. Yes, the wearing of a poppy can be viewed as support of political issues to some (which isn’t permitted/protected under the Human Rights Codes within a workplace environment in ON), but the majority don’t view it as such.



As I mentioned a few replies ago, the ongoing discussion of the poppy's symbolism is similar to that of the Thin Blue Line, except that the poppy has not (yet) been co-opted by any extremist groups.

Despite what the majority think of the poppy, the vocal minority are the ones getting the media coverage.  Those 'woke" activists see the poppy as representing the glorification of war, the ongoing militarization of youth and of lives and treasure lost to protect corporate and governmental greed. The Legion, like most large organizations, is reactive and are always struggling to get inside the activist's OODA loop in the media.

While I believe that, except for health and safety reasons, every worker should be allowed to wear a poppy at work, the employer still has a legitimate say in when, where and how the poppy is worn. But legislating protections for it's wear is another example of governmental overreaction to address a minor problem that could be solved through education rather than enforcement.


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## BeyondTheNow

> ...Those 'woke" activists see the poppy as representing the glorification of war...



Yup, queue the white-poppy crap...


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## Haggis

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Yup, queue the white-poppy crap...



You mean the White Power Poppy, right?

(See what I did there???)


----------



## mariomike

BeyondTheNow said:
			
		

> Unless a measured safety risk (think, perhaps, a daycare employee working with babies and toddlers—the pin falls off, a child grabs at it on the clothing, etc or something) I have personally never seen/heard of any company in the customer service industry in this country not allowing their employees to wear poppies.



Our department encouraged poppies to be worn. You did have to be careful though as you and your partner were carry patients in your arms - almost as you would a baby, except a lot bigger and heavier, often thrashing about.  



			
				Haggis said:
			
		

> As I mentioned a few replies ago, the ongoing discussion of the poppy's symbolism is similar to that of the Thin Blue Line,



Our emergency services respond, wearing poppies, without controversy. 

Can the same can be said of the TBL patch?



> Critics suggest that the "thin blue line" symbolism represents an "us versus them" mindset that heightens tensions between officers and citizens and negatively influences police-community interactions, by setting police apart from society at large.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_blue_line#Appearances_and_controversy


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## Ralph

Funny that the Ontario premier is willing to introduce legislation to mandate that companies can't tell their employees what not to wear, but won't entertain making the day a statutory holiday...


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## mariomike

Ralph said:
			
		

> Funny that the Ontario premier is willing to introduce legislation to mandate that companies can't tell their employees what not to wear, but won't entertain making the day a statutory holiday...



See also,

Remembrance Day: National holiday?/"Veterans' Day"? (merged) 
https://army.ca/forums/threads/22329.200
9 pages.


----------



## Eaglelord17

I am pretty sure the policy Whole Foods adopted was specifically to try and avoid this type of media backlash and controversy. It wasn't just the poppy they forbid on there uniform, it was literally EVERYTHING. I actually have some respect in regards to that as they aren't taking a stand on anything in particular rather being neutral (which is something I think the government in particular can learn from). 

Either way they are screwed. They try to make a neutral policy they get backlash for enforcing it. They go the other way it turns into why don't you have this symbol or that symbol portrayed. I would hate to be media relations for a company now, you just can't win and because they change the meaning of all these symbols so quickly these days you can't stay ahead of it.


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## lenaitch

Ralph said:
			
		

> Funny that the Ontario premier is willing to introduce legislation to mandate that companies can't tell their employees what not to wear, but won't entertain making the day a statutory holiday...



When I was with our police service's ceremonial unit we obviously paraded every Remembrance Day.  In a small city with a very large resident police presence - the majority being non-shift workers who had the day off as a Stat by contract - the 'voluntary' turnout was often embarrassing, particularly compared to the elderly residents who bundled up and braved the weather.  As well, the local schools would send a buses of students.  If it was a general Stat, I think most people would just treat it like another day off.

Besides, statutory holidays have a labour cost to employers.


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## Ralph

lenaitch said:
			
		

> Besides, statutory holidays have a labour cost to employers.



Yup.


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## mariomike

lenaitch said:
			
		

> When I was with our police service's ceremonial unit we obviously paraded every Remembrance Day.



I joined ours, after I retired. I missed the people.

You don't get full pay. But, there is a modest stipend for your time.



			
				lenaitch said:
			
		

> Besides, statutory holidays have a labour cost to employers.



Our collective agreement was,



> If the employee works on the actual holiday the employee will be paid two (2) times his regular rate of pay for the time so worked and in addition shall be paid for the full day or night at his regular rate of pay.



That means triple time for the entire 12 hours.

( Our shifts were 12 hours. Not 10 or 8. ) 

Called in on  OT on Remembrance Day,  or any Stat.?  That's Golden Time.   

Amazing how many on the sick list booked themselves fit in time to work the stats.


----------



## Haggis

mariomike said:
			
		

> Our emergency services respond, wearing poppies, without controversy.
> 
> Can the same can be said of the TBL patch?



Originally, yes.  But the meaning of the TBL symbol was perverted and became synonymous with oppressions by Whites over minorities and by the government over the people.  

Everybody (well, mostly) loves the poppy... for now.  Who knows if in five years the poppy will be co-opted by an anti-opioid activist group as representing the blood of those who died by overdose while society stood idly by silently supporting big pharma?

Yeah, it's a stretch but how many people expected BLM to hijack Toronto's Pride parade?


----------



## mariomike

Haggis said:
			
		

> Originally, yes.  But the meaning of the TBL symbol was perverted and became synonymous with oppressions by Whites over minorities and by the government over the people.
> 
> Everybody (well, mostly) loves the poppy... for now.  Who knows if in five years the poppy will be co-opted by an anti-opioid activist group as representing the blood of those who died by overdose while society stood idly by silently supporting big pharma?
> 
> Yeah, it's a stretch but how many people expected BLM to hijack Toronto's Pride parade?



I'm not disagreeing with your politics. But, I'm saying that from the comfort and safety of home.

I remember what it was like being sent into big city housing projects at 0100 hrs., where it seemed like you and your partner were the only two white faces. 

I always felt "likeability" was 90% of the job. We just wanted to get along.


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## Blackadder1916

Since it was the Whole Foods stupidity that kicked off this year's poppy outrage, I just noticed this (don't think it was yet mentioned on this thread).  They flinched.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/canada/whole-foods-workers-prevented-from-wearing-poppies-doug-ford-calls-move-disgusting/wcm/654763dc-8f6b-4ccf-8219-cad55bfd63e6


> Canada’s veterans affairs minister Tweeted Friday that Whole Foods would be allowing its Canadian employees to wear poppies at work, after a move to initially stop the practice received criticism and prompted motions from politicians across the country.
> 
> Whole Foods had earlier said it had updated its dress-code policy last month, to specify a ban on anything other than the standard uniform, in an effort to clarify rules for employees.
> 
> “Whole Foods Market honours the men and women who have and continue to bravely serve their country,” a spokeswoman said. “With the exception of those items required by law, our dress code policy prohibits any additions to our standard uniform.”
> 
> However, after an online furore erupted against the move on Friday, it would appear the retailer has now backtracked.
> 
> “Just spoke to the Chief Operating Officer at Whole Foods,” said veterans affairs minister Lawrence MacAulay on Twitter. “Employees will now be able to wear their poppies at work.”
> 
> . . .



As Canadian politicos weigh-in on the issue with comments of disgust and threats of legal measures, I was taken by the approach from one . . . 



> The leader of the Bloc Quebecois, Yves-François Blanchet, said that while he disapproves of Whole Foods rule, he’ll express his disappointment by refusing to shop there, rather than legislating the problem away.
> 
> “I would rather have them let their employees wear it, but not to the point where I would make politics about it,” he said.



I had an initial, momentary sense of outrage but as I looked to see how I could express my dissatisfaction to Whole Foods management, I discovered that they don't have any outlets in Alberta (there had been some reports a couple of years ago about them opening in Calgary and Edmonton, but apparently those plans fell through); in fact, there are only 14 stores in Canada.  The sense I get from their on-line presence is that there is no separate Canadian corporate management chain, so these decisions were made in the United States where there is a very different awareness of the poppy or even our cultural meaning of November 11 as Remembrance Day.  To them it is Veterans Day; their day of honouring their war dead is Memorial Day in May.  On the two occasions (years ago) that I was in the USA on November 11 (on military business, in uniform, attending conferences) though there was some acknowledgement of the day, the conference agenda continued.  While some of the Americans were aware why we Canadians (and British) were wearing poppies, I was asked by several people what "that flower" was about.  And so, with a better understanding of the ignorance of Whole Foods management, my reaction has modified.  So, unlike M. Blanchet who has a physical location he can boycott, I have now limited my response to sending them a comment that they are dicks.


----------



## lenaitch

mariomike said:
			
		

> I joined ours, after I retired. I missed the people.
> 
> You don't get full pay. But, there is a modest stipend for your time.



You were lucky.  After retirement it was strictly voluntary except any out of pocket expenses for out of town gigs.

I was on ours for about 15 years fairly evenly split between working and post-retirement.


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## Eaglelord17

Also if anyone wants to boycott Whole Foods they are a subsidiary of Amazon so you know where to stop shopping if you want to make a statement with your wallet.


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## Journeyman

Haggis said:
			
		

> .... except that the poppy has not (yet) been co-opted by any extremist groups.


Although the poppy symbol is owned by the Legion, including needing their concurrence for a Veteran plate, and actively defended against others' usage.


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