# The Martial Arts Superthread



## Jarnhamar

Does anyone know if theres martial arts schools in petawawa or that area?
I remember at one time there was a ju-jitsu club.
Im Hoping theres a taekwondo school or Akido school.

Thanks


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## babicma

I‘ve been training the Russian Martial Art in Hamilton and Toronto on and off for the last year and a half and I find it to be very good. Its a ancient russian martial art that is utilized by the Spetznaz and other Russian special forces. I‘ll post the site and if anyone around the areas of the schools are interested i suggest you take a class or two to check it out. Its good, cheap and pretty relaxed atmosphere.

 http://www.russianmartialart.com


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## Jarnhamar

Is there anywhere in Petawawa that has the martial arts aikido? ie a school or some guys who get together and practice it?

Failing that are their any tae kwon do schools/clubs or other types of martial arts around there that someone could direct me to?

thanks


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## Sh0rtbUs

I've found this link...

http://www.psppetawawa.com/index.php?content=clubs&PHPSESSID=44d070e3df235173d40d17c6f38d7765

It states Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Ninjitsu, Boxing, and Kickboxing from what I can see. Im not seeing aikido though...

Hope thats of some help.


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## Island Ryhno

Alright so I'm moving back to Edmonton in August and I'm looking for a good gym in the North end (East or West) or possibly the West end (close to West Ed, around Stony Plain Road) I haven't been there for five years and I would like some opinions. Also I'm interested in Martial Arts as well, currently I'm doing TKD and Judo. Anybody have any suggestions on some good MMA clubs in the same aforementioned areas? Thanks to all who reply!


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## bled12345

panthers gym


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## wotan

A few martial arts clubs can be found at http://www.discoveredmonton.com/Edmonton/BusinessIndex/MartialArts/ as well as http://www.buyitcanada.com/Edmonton/Sports/Martial-Arts/  

As for gyms, there are a crapload around, but the Base Gym is pretty well equipped as well and a whole lot cheaper.  Depending on what unit you are being posted to, they may have a gym within unit lines, too.

Anyway, hope this helps.  Best of luck on your move and welcome to Edmonton!


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## paracowboy

wotan said:
			
		

> As for gyms, there are a crapload around, but the Base Gym is pretty well equipped as well and a whole lot cheaper.   Depending on what unit you are being posted to, they may have a gym within unit lines, too.


3 VP has a better gym in the lines than the base gym, and better than some civvie gyms. If you are interested, there's a kick-ass (hey! A pun. I made a funny!) kickboxing/TKD club on base.


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## Island Ryhno

Sorry guys, should have noted I will not be on base. (at least not for a while) I'm going in civvy land. I'm returning to the forces as hopefully and AVN Tech, but have been told it is a considerable wait. So being the unemployed bum that I am, I have to go to the great west and make some moolah along the way. So anything on the civvy side for a while. Also as an aside, does anybody know the reserve unit websites for Edmonton (Loyal Edmonton or an Armoured Res if it's out there) I may go with the reserves once I move up there, in which case I will be able to use the base stuff. But I need civvy info for know. Thanks guys!


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## wotan

LERs:  http://www.army.dnd.ca/LOYAL_EDMONTON_REGT/

SALH:  http://www.army.dnd.ca/SOUTH_AB_LIGHT_HORSE/

LFWA HQ:  http://www.army.gc.ca/lfwa/contents.html

If you are looking at going AVN TECH, you will want to bear 408 Sqn in mind as well.  They are a mixed Reg F/P Res unit flying the Griffon.  The LFWA site is good, because it lists all units, including links to the P Res units and formations.  Cheers.


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## Island Ryhno

Cheers mate, thanks for the info. I may still go armoured regs so I might look into the Light Horse unit. Appreciate that!


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## paracowboy

you dirty, greasy, sandal-wearin', granola-munchin', tree-huggin', dope-smokin', civvies are allowed to work out at the Base gym, as well. So I guess that's still an option for you. No offense.


 ;D


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## Island Ryhno

Para, now now, I'm still an ex "crunchie." What about the gym you mentioned that 3vp uses, is that available to the public as well? Also any idea on the cost for a civvy to use the cf gym? I think it may be too far for me, I'm looking at the west end for living so. Again if anybody has any suggestions on gyms in the west end that would be great, thanks!


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## paracowboy

no, it wouldn't be feasible to go to either the 3VP gym, or the base gym if you're going to the west end. I'll ask around for you, though.


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## Warvstar

Hi guys, im just posting this to let you know that Canada is trying to ban prize fighting.
As a martial artist who likes to compete, I will post this link to a federal petition, please sign it.
If you have reasons for not wanting to sign it please post here, just so I can understand if you understand this law and the petition against it.
http://www.mikemiles.com/federalpetition.pdf


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## Roy Harding

Warvstar said:
			
		

> Hi guys, im just posting this to let you know that Canada is trying to ban prize fighting.
> As a martial artist who likes to compete, I will post this link to a federal petition, please sign it.
> If you have reasons for not wanting to sign it please post here, just so I can understand if you understand this law and the petition against it.
> http://www.mikemiles.com/federalpetition.pdf



Warvstar:

Can you expand on this issue a bit?  Did Section 83 get recently amended?  As far as I know, martial arts have been legal here so far, what prompts this petition now?


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## Warvstar

Retired CC said:
			
		

> Warvstar:
> 
> Can you expand on this issue a bit?   Did Section 83 get recently amended?   As far as I know, martial arts have been legal here so far, what prompts this petition now?



All the Canadian martial arts web sites are talking about this, here is a qoute from Mixed Martial Arts Expo
Mixed Martial Arts Expo has learned that when Parliament reconvenes in September, 2005, the Federal Government under the direction of MP Dr. Irwin Colter, Minister of Justice and Attorney General, will table revisions to Section 83 of the Criminal Code, an old and vague piece of legislation designed to prevent prize fighting in Canada.


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## Roy Harding

Warvstar said:
			
		

> All the Canadian martial arts web sites are talking about this, here is a qoute from Mixed Martial Arts Expo
> Mixed Martial Arts Expo has learned that when Parliament reconvenes in September, 2005, the Federal Government under the direction of MP Dr. Irwin Colter, Minister of Justice and Attorney General, will table revisions to Section 83 of the Criminal Code, an old and vague piece of legislation designed to prevent prize fighting in Canada.



Thanks.  Although I won't be signing the petition soon, I'll do some research and perhaps sign it in the future.  On the surface, this looks like horse patootie - more to follow later.


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## Warvstar

Exactly Retired CC. Im not asking people to blindly write it, definetly read up on it then consider. Thanks for looking into it though.


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## Mojo Magnum

very nice,
I'm looking forward to taking every bit of martial arts I can get my hands (and feet) on.
hoo rah.


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## paracowboy

Systema is not ancient. It *is* effective.


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## Chimo

I think that unarmed combat should be part of each units PT program. Of course this would take a huge cultural change in many of the units. I think it should be introduced at basic and continued through each level of training. This training would be reinforced at the unit level through competition and practise.

The younger troops enjoy the challenge and feel that they benefit from it. We need to make instructor courses readily available and then use the instructors for that purpose.


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## Kat Stevens

First we need to convince the pointy heads that aggression is not a bad trait in a soldier.  I joined in '80, and even then we were getting fluffier.  I was a pretty fair amateur boxer as a teen, when I asked my recruiter about army boxing, he looked at me like a cow looking at a new gate.  Other than the LIBs, good aggressive training doesn't exist in combat arms.  It takes far less imagination to run 4 times a week than to sign out some rubber training knives and toss each other about a large mat for an hour.  Bring back boxing, pugil sticks, and bear pit.  Even a unit rugby team would instill some fight.  Hire a qualified jiu jutsu teacher at each Garrison, and for gods sake, use him/her.  We lost sight of the fact that our job, ultimately is to hurt people if we have to....my $.02

Kat


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## Haggis

I had the chance, about 10 years ago, to spend some time on ex with some South Korean Special Forces types.  All small men but as hard as they come.  Their nickname in the ROK is "Steel Men".

Anywhoo... they practised and swore by Tae-Kwon-Do.  For the unintitiated, Tae-Kwon-Do is a particulary vicious form of Karate.  Among some other arts, I studied Tae-Kwon-Do for a couple of years and found it particularly suited to close-in combat. 

I know that the CF regularly fields and supports Tae-Kwon-Do teams in both CISM and CIOR leading me to believe that Tae-Kwon-Do is the de-facto "official"  Martial Art of the CF.  There was even a CF patron appointed, however his name escapes me.

Comments?


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## Kat Stevens

The CISM ninjas all do their training on weekends and evenings, I believe, ie on their own time.  Back in the early part of my carreer we also sent competitiors to judo and boxing CISM events, all training on their own time.  I think everyone in the combat arms should at least be given basic instuction.  Also keep a kubotan in their webbing, and know how to use it.


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## Jarnhamar

I think tae kwon doe is geared more towards sports and less on self defense.

I found while I was in taekwondo that there was a big rush to get people to black belt. Lots of rules too in sparing like no punching in the face.   I got used to that and when I started boxing with some of my buddies i was getting hit in the face a lot because i was so used to not having to defend against that.

For self defense and what soldiers do I think aikido is great.


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## paracowboy

Ghost778 said:
			
		

> I think tae kwon doe is geared more towards sports and less on self defense.


depends on the style and instructor. WTF is very sport oriented. Especially in the cookie-cutter,money-making dojangs found scattered throughout suburbia, along with Starbucks'n'bucks-for-a-cup-of-freakin'-coffee! My tae kwon do teacher was a li'l Vietnamese dude who was interested in teaching you how to fight, how to survive, and how to arrest/subdue/kill an assailant. 



> For self defense and what soldiers do I think aikido is great.


too complicated and takes too long to become proficient. Simplicity is key. Gross motor movements. Lots of contact.


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## Kat Stevens

Gracey jiu jutsu is the way to go. brutal, fast, and effective


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## TCBF

I thought the Red Army practiced 'sambo'?

Who was the Canadian who taught the S.O.E. during WW2, and what was the system he developed?

Tom


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## The_Falcon

TCBF said:
			
		

> I thought the Red Army practiced 'sambo'?
> 
> Who was the Canadian who taught the S.O.E. during WW2, and what was the system he developed?
> 
> Tom



They probably did to some extent.  Systema "The System" was/is used by the special forces units.  If you are going to practice martial arts for possible use in the military, pick one that would allow you to actually fight wearing all your kit.  Those high flying TKD kicks aren't going to do much good when you are wearing 50lbs of gear.


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## paracowboy

despite the recent marketing ploys, Systema *is* Samo Obrovna (Sambo). Which is why it's so bloody effective.


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## Zartan

If someone coulod answer this, I would be greatly thankful. Just out of curiosity, what Martial Art would you, impartially recommend? I had been thinking of taking up Tae-Kwon-Do, but my schedule got in the way. However, interest (and desire) still remain. For the record, I have no prior experience in Martial Arts and combatives.



			
				TCBF said:
			
		

> Who was the Canadian who taught the S.O.E. during WW2, and what was the system he developed?



Are you thinking of Mr. Underwood? Here's a post done by someone who works for him (well a company which offers Underwood's techniques): http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32428.0.html
enjoy.


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## TCBF

I was thinking about Mr Bill Underwood, who started developing "Combato" in 1907, fought in WW1, trained SOE in Combato in WW2, softened it to 'Defendo" in 1945, and passed that on to a guy who teaches it in toronto today.

As to which one to use, you got me.  I no nothing of such stuff.

Tom


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## Fusaki

> I've been training the Russian Martial Art in Hamilton and Toronto on and off for the last year and a half and I find it to be very good. Its a ancient russian martial art that is utilized by the Spetznaz and other Russian special forces. I'll post the site and if anyone around the areas of the schools are interested i suggest you take a class or two to check it out. Its good, cheap and pretty relaxed atmosphere.
> 
> http://www.russianmartialart.com



This past winter my CQC/MMA club in Petawawa made the trip down to Toronto for a private lesson under Mr Vasiliev. It was an interesting experience to say the least. Some of the techniques looked a little hokey, especially if you're watching the videos on the website where he takes on 5 guys at a time. But the other stuff is VERY effective. In all, I'd say it was a highlight of my time with the club.



> If someone coulod answer this, I would be greatly thankful. Just out of curiosity, what Martial Art would you, impartially recommend?



I'd recommend Muay Thai kickboxing and Brazillian (AKA Gracie) Jiu Jutsu. Thai kickboxing covers a wider range of stand up fighting when compared to other styles of kickboxing (Knees, elbows, and clinching) BJJ focuses on groundwork. For military purposes these arts would need to be adapted for the bulk of bodyarmour and the use of weapons, but IMHO the buildingblocks are there.


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## Island Ryhno

Your Martial Art style depends on your instructor, if they are traditionalist or sport types, then they are mostly ineffective when it comes to actual fighting. When you go to check out a dojo in your choice of martial art, ask for a free session or two, ask if they teach based on sport or tradition or combat, then decide for yourself. The best mixed martial artists in the world adapt the things taught in different martial arts to a usefull style of their own. To say one style is better than the other is just opinion. I've done Judo, BJJ, TKD, Jeet Kune Do, Kali/Escrima and wing chun. Depends on what you want. I've found the best mix to be Judo (if you can get someone to teach it in combat style) BJJ and Jeet Kune Do or Wing Chun. The best of grappling and striking. And it should be part of regular PT, anyone here who has grappled for an hour can tell you it's as good as any time spent lifting weights or running.


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## Springroll

Both my hubby and I think that a martial arts program would be awesome for the CF, especially if it was made a part of the regular PT program and is utilised by those that could really use it. Him being on ship, it would be hard to use it, but for any trade that requires any sort of soldier qualification, it would be greatly beneficial to teach them even the most basic of moves. My hubby trained in Ju Jitsu(sp?) for many years before joining the CF and said that it is definitely an effective martial art, provided that you properly use what is taught.


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## Zarathustra

I'm in the recruiting process and it's a bit slow for me so to keep busy I started studying Senshido. (www.senshido.com) It's not a traditional martial art, it's a mix of whatever works from other martial arts. We do Muay Thai Kickboxing for PT/sport and Senshido for self-defense. We do a lot talking trying to de-escalate conflict and avoid fighting. But if we can't avoid it then we go for the eyes, throat, balls, we bite, etc. It's really not sport. They teach the legal and psychological aspects too. Their philosophy is if someone attacks you they basically sign a big disclaimer stating they accept all the physical risk associated with this kind of activity. So whatever works against them you're allowed to use it. 

I only started like a month ago but so far I like it. There's a lot of information on the website if you're curious.


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## paracowboy

Zartan,
the eternal quest to master the elusive art of the sukiyaki nose-toss is highly individualistic. As the High and Exalted One, Bruce Jun Fan Lee stated "Your Way is not my Way". (Actually Brucie was ripping off Krishnamurti, but I digress. Again.)

What style to study depends entirely on your personality, body-type, location, finances, and goals. If you like full-contact, no-nonsense ass-kickery, then look into Muay Thai, MMA, Krav Maga, Boxing, etc.
If you like the quasi-spiritual, emotional quest for self-perfection, then one of the more Traditional Japanese styles, may work. 
If you like the artistic beauty of the forms, look into Chinese styles. Or Capoeria.
If you want to master the use of realistic weaponry, look into Phillipino/Malaysian systems.

Are you tall and skinny? Try Tae Kwon Do. Are you short and squat? Try Judo or wrestling.

My advice? Find every martial arts school in the phone book. Spend a week or two at each one, to try the style and instructor out. If you get a funky vibe, leave. If you don't like the student's behaviour, leave. If the instructor won't let you 'sample' the place, leave.


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## PJ D-Dog

Chimo said:
			
		

> I think that unarmed combat should be part of each units PT program. Of course this would take a huge cultural change in many of the units. I think it should be introduced at basic and continued through each level of training. This training would be reinforced at the unit level through competition and practise.
> 
> The younger troops enjoy the challenge and feel that they benefit from it. We need to make instructor courses readily available and then use the instructors for that purpose.



The Marine Corps has a martial arts program with a multiple belt level system.  Every recruit gets trained to the tan belt level during boot camp.  Once you rotate to the fleet, you eventually get trained to the grey belt level.  Some then move on to the green belt or attend the four week green belt instructor's course and become Marine Corps martial arts instructors.

The martial arts program is not excessively easy.  Marines are regularly injured while going through the different belt levels or just during practice.  In my shop, my Gunny and a Sgt were practicing ground fighting and the gunny accidently broke the Sgt's pinky finger which resulted in him having to wear a cast for three weeks.  This was not the intent but when you're rolling around on the grass with a 110 degree humidity index, hands and fingers tend to slip.

As for incorporating martial arts into PT, it depends on which unit you are with.  Not all Marines are trained to the same belt level nor do all of them have access to get trained to higher belt levels.  Martial arts is a perrishable skill.  If you don't use it, you'll loose it.

In my shop, two of us are working at getting our grey belt.  Our training consists of a two mile boots and uts with flack jacket run, some active recrovery and then into ground fighting for a few hours every other day.  We'll be done soon.  I'll try and find the Marine martial arts website and post the link.

PJ D-Dog


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## paracowboy

from what I've seen of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children and their system of fisticuffs, it's a very well thought-out program. Sort of the same ideas taught by Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, and Co, but modernized for today's battlefield.
There is no reason on earth that the CF couldn't rip this idea off.


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## Mojo Magnum

Ok guys, as a new recruit who loves martial arts,

I get the impression that hand to hand combat training is not as "front and center" in the CF as I had thought.

But, being forever the optimist I have observed that you all are not suffering from any shortage of martial arts awareness and thus I expect each of you could execute at least one deadly maneuver in a hurry if suddenly called upon.  Where did you attain the martial arts knowledge you possess?  On Army time or your time?


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## Island Ryhno

Personal time, only unarmed I ever did on military time was pugil sticks. Oh and a couple of bare knuckles, but it was not sanctioned.  8)


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## Kat Stevens

Everything of any value, fighting wise, was learned on my time, my dime.


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## paracowboy

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Everything of any value, fighting wise, was learned on my time, my dime.


ditto


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## Zartan

Thank you all!

I'm actually tall (6'4") and weigh 76 kg, though by no means skinny.  I've been leaning towards Taekwondo more for self improvement than practicality, and also due to an abundance of schools within walking distance of me (three, one of which is about a 10 minutes walk from my house). There is no presence of Krav Maga in Calgary, so unfortunately, that is out of the question, and only one school of Muay Thai.
Thanks again,
Zartan


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## Jarnhamar

> depends on the style and instructor. WTF is very sport oriented. Especially in the cookie-cutter,money-making dojangs found scattered throughout suburbia, along with Starbucks'n'bucks-for-a-cup-of-freakin'-coffee!



Very true. WTF was all about the sport aspect and competing.  That probably turned me off towards taekwondo as a self defense.

Good point about aikido. It's not something you learn in a few classes or a few years. You start learning Aikido after you've reached your black belt.  Some of the shit they do is amazing though, watching 6 guys get thrown around (without injury) is some serious control.

For soldiers of different sizes with different learning curves you'd want something simple and effecive.

If someone has the time for aikido it's a blast and makes you pretty hard to hit- just make sure you back it up with some type of ground fighting like judo or ju-jitsu


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## Sh0rtbUs

A long time member from Russian martial Arts came into my Gym looking to try his hand at some Brazilian jiu-Jitsu, and thai kick boxing. he walked in, and had his @ss handed to him on the mat.

Now, with his experience with Russian Martial Arts AND about the most efficient grappling and submission skills available in Canada... he's a scary guy.

Our unit has done unofficial grappling and such after Ex's as a joke, and to be honest... it's kind of sad. Of all people in society, soldiers shouldnt be the least aggressive...


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## Delta

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Those high flying TKD kicks aren't going to do much good when you are wearing 50lbs of gear.


OMFG, hiliarious!!! I, too, have to say that it is more of sport than combat thing

if u want to do those feats pulled off by Tony Jaa (in a combat situation), remember, he didn't have his kit on

babicma, u dun happen to train at 'Fight Club' do you? i saw this Toronto tv magazine thing, where the show introduced this place that teaches Systema in a relaxed environment


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## paracowboy

well, in fairness to TKD, I've seen as many of it's stylists win scraps as any other system. Think about it: if someone can kick you in the head before you can stop it, how fast can he kick your knee?

It's not the style, it's the stylist. Anybody who tries to tell you that any system is automatically better than any other is either ignorant, or trying to sell you something.


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## Island Ryhno

Exactly. TKD is actually a great striking art IF you don't get caught up in the notion that the person you are fighting is going to do this or that. People with no formal martial arts training are dangerous foes, they just bull rush you, swinging and kicking and that is extremely hard to defend against. You have to remember it's a "defence" the idea being to keep them away from you. Also, a lot of the kicks and punches you see in Ultimate Fighter are derivetives of TKD and Boxing, it's called Muay Thai.


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## paracowboy

Island Ryhno said:
			
		

> Also, a lot of the kicks and punches you see in Ultimate Fighter are derivetives of TKD and Boxing, it's called Muay Thai.


yes and no. Muay Thai is not derived from TKD or boxing. It is a purely Thai system, an offshoot of Krabbi Krabbong. Modern Muay Thai champs have begun to integrate western boxing into their system, because of its' superior hand strikes, as well as it's teaching of slipping a punch, and quick footwork.

Modern western kick-boxing is basically TKD kicks and boxing punches.



> People with no formal martial arts training are dangerous foes, they just bull rush you, swinging and kicking and that is extremely hard to defend against.


spot on. I've long since lost count of the number of 'kungfoo/krotty' guys I've seen get their heads handed to them by street fighters.


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## Kat Stevens

paracowboy said:
			
		

> spot on. I've long since lost count of the number of 'kungfoo/krotty' guys I've seen get their heads handed to them by street fighters.



All the flowery high kick multi spin arts are a thing of beauty to watch, between two trained practitioners.  A madly rushing and swinging gorilla on the street needs to be closed with and shut down in short order.  That's why I feel grappling, with a lot of choke and strangle holds, plus heavy use of joint locks is ideal. Almost every down and dirty scrap I was ever in ended up on the floor, very few standing back and jabbing each others head off.  The longer a fight lasts, the less your chance of escaping uninjured becomes.  Blitzkrieg, baby... hit hard, hit first, hit fast, get the f*ck outa Dodge... ;D

Kat


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## Jarnhamar

> OMFG, hiliarious!!!



I think people are going to use cyber taekwondo if you keep using slang like that here 

Teaching a little martial arts is a bad thing.
I'm not a fan of the odd hand to hand combat training that the army sometimes throws in as a space filler because it's dangerous.

Soldiers either
a. get a false sense of security (also very common with womens self defense classes)
b.   learn enough to seriously hurt someone but not enough control.
Imagine a protester or someone shoving a soldier and a soldier defends themselves by snapping a bone or something else else. Right to defend themselves aside, this is Canada. There would be a big investigation and you better bet the martial arts schools around bases would have to close shop pretty fast. "Soldiers learning how to kill with their hands, somalia bla bla bla"   Typical media.

I really like the idea of intrigrating martial arts into weekly PT. It's a good work out and will teach our soldiers how to defend themselves properly.


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## Island Ryhno

paracowboy said:
			
		

> Modern western kick-boxing is basically TKD kicks and boxing punches.



Yes, sorry Para, this is basically what I was trying to say. The westernized version of Muay Thai. This is a great conversation, better than most I've had about MMA which go to shite in about three comments.


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## paracowboy

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> All the flowery high kick multi spin arts are a thing of beauty to watch, between two trained practitioners.   A madly rushing and swinging gorilla on the street needs to be closed with and shut down in short order.   That's why I feel grappling, with a lot of choke and strangle holds, plus heavy use of joint locks is ideal. Almost every down and dirty scrap I was ever in ended up on the floor, very few standing back and jabbing each others head off.   The longer a fight lasts, the less your chance of escaping uninjured becomes.   Blitzkrieg, baby... hit hard, hit first, hit fast, get the **** outa Dodge...


A-men! Preach it, brother! I feel that the best system is one that incorporates strikes, grappling, and the mysterious art of the 911 cell phone call. Learn to box! For the love of Heaven, get into a boxing ring. I've seen so many artists get seriously hurt by fighters because they don't practice *hitting * people or getting *hit by * people. Learn to kick - TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, savate... Learn to grapple - judo, jujitsu, chin'na, shuai chiao, _*wrestling*_. Gene LeBell once stated that Judo was wrestling with handles. Learn to have your cell phone handy and be able to call the cops, and survive while they get there. This is the first step towards your Shodan in "Court Kung Fu".
 Failing your intention to study a modern eclectic system, I'd advise you to follow Bruce Lee's path and test your system against other styles. Take your Tae Kwan Do into a Wing Chun kwoon and spar with them. Go into a Judo dojo, a boxing ring, etc. Find a school that excells in weaponry, and try to defend yourself against knives and sticks.




			
				Ghost778 said:
			
		

> Teaching a little martial arts is a bad thing.
> I'm not a fan of the odd hand to hand combat training that the army sometimes throws in as a space filler because it's dangerous.


 not to mention useless, since it takes hours and thousands of repititions for an act to be committed to muscle memory. When sensory exclusion hits, and fine motor skills go out the window, the body falls back on instinct. Training must become instinctive for it to become effective. That means thousands of kicks thrown, and thousands of throws received, and thousands of choke holds applied.
Properly.



> Soldiers either
> a. get a false sense of security (also very common with womens self defense classes)
> b. learn enough to seriously hurt someone but not enough control.


very true. As witnessed every year in Meaford and Wainwright where young recruits get their heads torn off by street-fighting farm boys.  



> I really like the idea of intrigrating martial arts into weekly PT. It's a good work out and will teach our soldiers how to defend themselves properly.


I think it should be mandatory. Not just to teach our soldiers how to survive, but to instill so many of the "manly graces". Failing to teach our troops how to survive Hand-to-Gland is negligent and criminal. Espcially in today's world of asymmetric warfare, when he may have to restrain a woman, shoot a man in the face, punch out an attacker, and try to keep the dog from biting his arse. All in the same friggin' room!


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## FITSUMO

paracowboy is right, 
Try all the arts you can, learn how to effectively fight in every range, I trained in a very street wise JKD school, where we would invite teachers from other schools and learn what might be effective for us.  Never leave home without a little Kali, jkd,  BJJ, boxing, and muay thai. As was said earlier, most "streetfights" will end up on the ground, but you never want to stay there, ( think guys friends playing soccer with your head).  I love BJJ, but if you are worried about street fights/street defense you should find a school that teaches vale tudo.  A buddy of mine, who is a great BJJ guy, got a concussion from moi when we allowed punching, so it is very important to understand the ground and pound concept

Being a 22 year vet of martail arts and 14 years of bouncing, ( going to state the obvious, but it needs to be said) leave your ego at the door( hard for alpha types) and always try and spar with people that are way better than you, you will take your lumps but you will grow very fast.

train hard.


----------



## Zarathustra

I would add that martial arts should deal with weapons and multi-attackers otherwise it's just sport. It should also allow you to kill/incapacitate an opponent quickly. The referee cannot decide who won.

But why isn't some of this taught in the CF ? Lack of instructors? Too long to learn ? Preference for bullets and high-tech solutions ?


----------



## Island Ryhno

Here is something that we are adding into our Combat System that we are developing at our martial arts school. It's called San Shou and is an excellent fighting technique which mixes take downs with strikes. We've added our Judo and Ju Jitsu to it, so after a takedown you would try for a submission armbar or choke. I'll let you guys know how it goes. http://www.chanskungfu.com/videos/danda.wmv


----------



## Mojo Magnum

nice stuff
interesting that they don't go to submission.
More fun to watch.


----------



## Jaxson

A little off topic...

But Like fitsumo i did some bouncing (6 months for me opposed to his 14 years) and you would be surprised how nuts it can get in some bars and how when your back to back with people and you got 2 guys with pool cues or a beer bottle coming at you, you realize just how damn quick you need to react. I saw this one guy who had just started bouncing at this club i worked at, when i was in my last month ( what happened to him was the reason i quit cause it was too crazy for 100$ a night)   anyways this fresh bouncer with his "Ive done 6 years of boxing don't worry about me attitude" had a pool cue snapped over his head and had the now very sharp and jagged end jammed into his leg, at which point he fell and took a steel toed boot to the head 4 times, i saw the guy about 2-3 months after that, and his tough guy attitude had to say the least disappeared. Oh ya and the whole incident happened because the bouncer asked him to step away from the patio door cause he (the drunk) was in the way.


----------



## Kat Stevens

Zarathustra said:
			
		

> I would add that martial arts should deal with weapons and multi-attackers otherwise it's just sport. It should also allow you to kill/incapacitate an opponent quickly. The referee cannot decide who won.
> 
> But why isn't some of this taught in the CF ? Lack of instructors? Too long to learn ? Preference for bullets and high-tech solutions ?


As I mentioned earlier, there has been a concerted effort over the last 25 years to breed the aggression out of our soldiers.  All contact sports; gone, Pugil training; gone.  The only contact sport left is hockey, and let's face it, since the CFEHL closed down, army hockey is a shadow of its former self. As I said before, a lot less effort goes into planning a run four mornings out of five, than booking a room full of mats and getting stuck in to each other.


----------



## hoote

I have a blackbelt in Taekwon-do.  I am a 9 time gold medalist and a national champion.  I was on the Alberta team in 1993-1994. I will be the first one to tell you that few TKD techniques are useful for soldiering.  Why?  Because many of them are complex kicks which involve spinning or other finite motor movements.  Besides, can you see a man with all his battle gear on, rifle, and ruck doing a spin kick?  Or even kicking above his own groin?

The only useful kicks from TKD are the side kick (you can break someone in half with one of those) and the front kick (can be done fast to hurt someone or kick open doors, etc.)  Both of those can be learned in a few months and mastered over years.  As for all the other patterns and crap, they are good to help you learn reaction time, speed and how to use gravity, aka dropping power, when you strike but again require YEARS to master. Thus TKD is not practical to teach recruits in BMQ or whatever.   

So in my opinion and after years in TKD, as well as meddling with judo, jiujitsu, knife fighting, karate, etc. I have learned that knowing TOO MANY MOVES = FREEZING IN A FIGHT!!!

It has it happened to me lots.  When I was the TKD champ in highschool and after I had was in a few street fights and at the beginning I didn't know what to do.  I froze.  The problem was I had 100 things in my mind but had to think about what to use.  That is the problem.  When adrenaline flows, you cannot think!  YOU REACT.  SO if you practice a few moves a million times, you will be better off than practicing a million different moves a few times.  Variety is not the key. 

What one needs to learn is how to instinctively react to an attack without having to memorize specific techniques.  GROSS BODY MOVEMENTS that just come out of you whether you are standing, sitting, surprised or ready.  

Go to www.attackproof.com and you will see what I mean.  This is the ultimate fighting system.  And it works and shows why it is superior to jiujitsu, karate, tkd, etc.


----------



## Sask HCAO

Two words:  

Krav Maga

www.krav-maga.com


----------



## pte. Massecar

Where is there a sytema school in Hamilton? I'd like to check it out.


----------



## Fry

Anyone know of any bases offering Hapkido?


----------



## gate_guard

In the place of years of cross training in grappling and striking arts, knowing a few moves really well is not a bad idea. Anybody who has gone a few rounds in the dojo or on the street knows that more often than not you can finish 90% of fights with maybe five techniques. Just watch some NHB competitions if you haven't had first hand knowledge, how many times have you seen a fight end in a rear naked choke or an armbar, or in many cases a well timed right hook. It wouldn't take much to train our troops in a few of these proven techniques. Besides the practical reasons of self defense, I believe that hand to hand combat training instills a warrior mindset, something that we've let fall by the wayside in favour of more politically correct endeavours. Just think, it doesn't cost anything and an impromptu lecture or practice session can be set up virtually anywhere. 
As for the opinion that there is an ultimate system of fighting, sorry I don't agree.


----------



## Fry

Yup, I agree that just normal brawling/street fighting is quite dangerous. I am totally untrained in any martial arts, but I've been a few fights/scraps and been able to handle myself just fine and dandy. One of them was against a dude who attended about 15 years of Karate classes, BlackBelt and all. I just went in and punched when I knew I could hit. Knee'd when I knew I could get a good knee in... but one thing is that in ALL of the fights I've been in, I've never hit a guy when he was down on the ground.

Hate to repeat myself, but I think my earlier post might be overlooked where it's so small....


Anyone know of any bases offering Hapkido?


----------



## sigtech

Fry said:
			
		

> Yup, I agree that just normal brawling/street fighting is quite dangerous. I am totally untrained in any martial arts, but I've been a few fights/scraps and been able to handle myself just fine and dandy. One of them was against a dude who attended about 15 years of Karate classes, BlackBelt and all. I just went in and punched when I knew I could hit. Knee'd when I knew I could get a good knee in... but one thing is that in ALL of the fights I've been in, I've never hit a guy when he was down on the ground.
> 
> Hate to repeat myself, but I think my earlier post might be overlooked where it's so small....
> 
> 
> Anyone know of any bases offering Hapkido?


As far as Hapkido where are you located currenlty and where are you going to be posted?
Second why Hapkido? just wondering Hap is a good martial art but not as common on bases as TKD , Jiu Jitsu , or Judo
Ya the problem is Karate doesn't have alot of street application not like Kali or Jiu Jitsu or Krav like Boxers throw something at the Karata man that he isn't used to like a leg kick or a elbow and they get messed up. 
Now don't get me wrong all froms of self defense has there place, but with out a mix the unknown can really mess you up. When looking for a form that suits you remember this one word simple. if the defenses are simple when it comes down to it you won't be able to perform said defenses. Krav is a great example of K.I.S.S.


----------



## mainerjohnthomas

My basic martial art background is Karate and Jujitsu, but I have also dabbled in Tai-Chi, Tae Kwan do, Judo, and wrestling.  I have found that a mix of  a striking style and grappling style is the best bet, but the system you choose is not that important.  What is important is that you train in your chosen art until you react without thought.  The training must be realistic; your enemy cannot be expected to use "legal" moves, respect strike zones, or any of the sport style nonesense that turns suburban martial artists into fodder for street fighters.  The training must stress agression.  Your object should always be to do your enemy the maximum harm, with maximum speed.  All of us can do our IA's and stoppages in our sleep, but how many have given the same training to reacting to getting jumped hand to hand?  If you ever need your unarmed training, you will not have time to think about it, and like any soldier, you should have availed yourself of the chance to train your reflexes to instantly respond with the most effective technique you posses.  The first thought you should have time for should be, "who is that guy bleeding on the ground, and what the heck was his problem anyway?"  As Bruce Lee was fond of saying, everyone has two arms and two legs, and we all move the same, so all martial science is basically the same.  Your body is the one weapon you always have with you, you should be as familiar with it as you are your issue weapon.


----------



## Pearson87

Russel Forster was teaching Hapkido to the CF in ablerta back when I was training with his father in Prince George. Last time I heard from him he was in Cold Lake, not sure if he still teaches, the CF. Would be worth looking for him if that is what you were interested in doing.


----------



## Jarnhamar

Is anyone heading out on op archer roto2 interested in starting any kind of martial arts club or practicing?  Judo, jujitsu, aikido taekwondo etc..

Not sure what they have in place there already but it never hurt to do a little recce 

EDIT: Fixed your title, .......still spent from watching the spelling bee?


----------



## Franko

They do have some martial arts classes in KAF at the gym on weeknights...taekwondo IIRC.

There are always some troops doing some classes at any given time there. Just ask around, you'll find one.

The hardest thing is to have enough time off to go.

Regards


----------



## Jarnhamar

I'm much better at finding time off work than spelling 

I hope the martial arts clubs/practices in kaf aren't like the ones I've seen in the past where they are suffocated with rules to the point that everyone looses interest.


----------



## Aries

I'm on OP Archer right now(8jun to 15 dec 06) and the martial arts clubs are either always full up or completely useless( like the TKD).

Currently i hit the heavy bag to practice my boxing and have another guy whose teaching me the very little he knows about karate, plus whatever i remember from jiu jitsu.

Do you instruct and what is your style?


----------



## StevenPeece

I guess the martial arts subject is always a good one for conversation. However, have many of you suffered accidents whilst training? 

Last year I suffered damage to my internal organs, from a blow. I was in a lot of pain for some weeks and at one point thought my number was up. Anyway and thankfully, with some professional help I made a full recovery. 

A few weeks ago I was teaching a guy how to roll out of an arm lock. He was a tadge confused that night. I could tell by the blank look on his face. Unfortunately, he got muddled up with what he was meant to do. He applied a hand and thumb lock on my right hand and then dived into a role across the floor. I momentarily looked to roll with him, but the angle was awkward and I could feel my Radius and Ulna (Forearm) bones starting to bend slightly. Consequently, I stopped his role in mid flow. This reduced the chance of him snapping my arm. However, the lock was still applied and my thumb was nearly dislocated. There was a fair amount of pain as the muscles around my thumb, wrist and forehand all tore. 

Its been 3 weeks now and its starting to get better. The hard part is working your way through your everyday life trying to work around injuries like this until they repair themselves. Still, it happens from time to time, doesn't it. 

Anyone had any similar experiences? 

Cheers 

Steve


----------



## AverageJoe

Asides from the usual bumps and scrapes, I've had my ankles slightly torn ( a sprain ankle ) while practicing a roll out from a headlock. It wasn't such a bad injury but I was too stupid to seek proper medical care so it ended up bugging me for several months and then 5 or 6 more months of residual pain.

It was the oddest injury because I don't really see how I could have ended up hurting my ankle. I hadn't actually started the roll out when I felt my legs just drop  I guess I must have been overtraining and had a weak leg or something.

I guess we all tell ourselves safety first when we enter our respective places of training but it only takes a split second of losing your focus to put us out of commission for months. I guess the only thing is to make sure you take care of the injuries quick and properly because there is nothing we can actually do to "prevent" these "accidents"  

Maybe except quiting altogether haha.

P.S. How on earth did you damage your internal organs? What were you doing? Sparring full contact?!?!? Ouch!


----------



## M Feetham

It's been a long time since I trained seriously. Tae Kwon Do, blue belt but I do remember having sore knees from not having my feet and legs in the proper positions for kicks and some bumps and bruises from people who did not have complete control when doing some light contact sparring. (got caught right in the eye with a round house kick.)
Here in St Jean we have a MMA club now, but I havn't heard of any real serious injuries.
Marc


----------



## Bane

I had my left collar bone pulled off my sternum in high school wrestling, I have to say that is not an injury I recommend, it took many years to heal. Probably about 5 years before it felt 100% like the other side, though it still pops and cracks now and again.  Also, in a jiu jitsu class I was taking a quick step backwards and got the edge of my foot caught in a gap in the mats. Needless to say I went down like a sack of poop and ended up with a nice bruise from my ankle to about half way up to my knee. The blood just leeched up under the skin that far.  

I need to ask too; how and what internal organ(s) did you damage!?


----------



## edgar

Yves Philodor Jr cracked one of my ribs with a knee once. At least I think it was cracked, it hurt for about a year. I had about 50lbs and six inches of reach on him and still he beat me up. Sparring with him was the highlight of my martial arts, oddly enough. Most of my injuries are tendonitis from running in order to grow some lungs so I don't run out of gas and get beaten up by little guys.


----------



## kobeedog

I definitely feel your pain, I too am in the process of healing a martial arts injury. Just over 5 weeks ago I took a bad throw in my Jiu-Jitsu class (and executed a proper break-fall, I might add), I felt something pop in my groin and lower abdomen. Turns out it's a level 2 groin pull. Been going to physio now 2-3 three times a week, but my leg is still buggered. They're telling me it'll be at least 6 months before I'll be able to go back to training again full bore. I'm starting to believe them now, I tried going back this week to train in a very, very limited capacity and it was a definite no-go.


----------



## Cardstonkid

I have had my face crushed with a heel kick in a kickboxing match. It broke my nose and punched in my face so that my teeth did not line up properly. It didn't knock me out but the ref wouldn't let me continue because I looked like a freak show attraction. 

I had my rib cartilage torn (by Dale Pearnton former NY Ranger Goon -hell of a fight he was way bigger and mean but I did alright!) This was a painful injury that took forever to heal.

I broke most of my toes at one point or another and bones in each hand have been broken. 

I have had terrible leg bruises from leg kicks that hobbled me for a week or more. 

I have had neck injuries from being thrown by Judo guys (bastards!) and hyper extended joints from Jujitsu guys. 

I just realized,  I must not be very good at this stuff!  It is fun though, and hey, there is not much more satisfying than landing a good hard smack on someone's noggin' or knocking someone to the ground with a good body shot.  >


----------



## edgar

The _stoopidest_ injury ever inflicted upon me was when I tried my new roundhouse using the ball of my foot as the striking surface. I managed to snag the heavy bag with only my little toe. I've learned that you can't really splint a little toe, you just have to hate walking for a while. It still hurts for no apparent reason sometimes. And I only use my shinbone for roundkicks now.


----------



## sober_ruski

Broke my collar bone during an aikido practice. Good thing it was in the summer and I had a month to recover before going back to school. Being righty and using left arm all of a sudden sucks. That pretty much ended my Aikido thing.


----------



## edgar

sober_ruski said:
			
		

> Broke my collar bone during an aikido practice. Good thing it was in the summer and I had a month to recover before going back to school. Being righty and using left arm all of a sudden sucks. That pretty much ended my Aikido thing.


Where is this club? I thought Aikido was supposed to be gentle. Is there a bad-ass subdiscipline out there I haven't heard of? I plan to start Aikido someday because it said to be one you can still do when you get old and feeble.


----------



## sober_ruski

It was gentle. That day we were practicing rolls from standing position for the first time. I did it fine from my left arm, but right arm roll didnt work as well as i planned. Instead of rolling, i just smacked down on my shoulder and entire force of the impact transfered to the collar bone. Still have a "lump" where it broke.


----------



## x-grunt

Speaking of a stupid Aikido injury: I did a 180 pivot, and my little toe got stuck between two mats, broke with a little "snap" like breaking a chicken wing . Didn't even really hurt for a minute. I just stood there having a kind of "oh, wow, did that really happen?" moment.


----------



## Sham

I Broke a chunk of bone between my big toe and next toe the size of
a quarter somehow while sparring. Also, I tore my groin. Some ligament
or something down my leg and cant do splits anymore let alone a kick
higher than my stomach now  :crybaby:
Oh yea. Forgot I blew out my calf during a match when a guy landed on it.


----------



## Crisco

I'm aware there is a thread on this if anyone wants to tell me to use the search function, but my question was not answered so here it is. I heard there are many clubs available after your basic training such as golf, martial arts, sports ect. I was wondering, are these clubs open to Reservists. I was wondering because I have a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu background and love it to death. Also second part of the question is what level of your Basic must you be finished, in order to participate in these, is it your SQ or must you be finished your MOC aswell? I was not sure which thread to post this in, but since the thread that I stumbled over about clubs in the army was in this section I decided to post it here. Any answers would be great, thanks.


----------



## TN2IC

These programs are offered with PSP at your local base. Please check your DND gym.


----------



## ModlrMike

If you're looking to compete as a military competitor, then TaeKwonDo is the only "sanctioned" martial art. You can compete in other forms, but TKD has the only CF team. You can train during all parts of your career, but I would recommend that you train at the maintenance level until you finish your QL3. After your trade training, you should be able to train full bore.


----------



## Greymatters

Try these for more info...

Martial Arts in the CF - in Radio Chatter 

Hand to Hand Combat - in Training

Martial Arts in Petawawa - in The Canadian Military

Martial Arts Training in Guelph - in Radio Chatter

Gyms and Martial Arts in Edmonton - in Radio Chatter

Military Martial Arts - in Training

Soldiers use aggressor's energy through Aikido - in Military Current Affairs & News

Why has the Canadian military forgotten its rich history in unarmed combat? - in The Canadian Military

Self Defence and Protecting Canadians - in Canadian Politics

Which One? - in Training

Unarmed combat - in The Canadian Military


----------



## TN2IC

I have a folk down here, that has his Pro Card for Boxing, and does it off the side.


----------



## Ford

What martial arts to they teach at CFB Edmonton? What about other bases (if you know)?


----------



## ModlrMike

I know that there's taekwondo on the base, and there may be judo. There's plenty of martial arts taught in the area just south of the base.


----------



## dangerboy

Here is the website for the PSP at CFB Edmonton, they will be able to answer your questions:

http://www.pspedmonton.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1


----------



## Future Prodigy

I for one am. I study/do kyokushin karate, and judo. I have done bjj, taekwondo and freestyle wrestling.

I'm curious as to who are the MA's on this forum.


----------



## medaid

Shao-Lin kung fu for 10 yrs. Reality based for 2, moving towards Defendo.


----------



## CougarKing

Future Prodigy said:
			
		

> I for one am. I study/do kyokushin karate, and judo. I have done bjj, taekwondo and freestyle wrestling.
> 
> I'm curious as to who are the MA's on this forum.



Have you really done Tae Kwon Do? If so, is your instructor/"dan" working for the WTF or the ATF?

What belt are you? And NO, there is no such thing as a "junior black belt".  :

BTW, your thread title is very astute. It should be titled "Who here is AN active martial artist?".


----------



## stryte

Started Shindo Jujitsu last year. It has been great and the club was exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## Future Prodigy

CougarDaddy said:
			
		

> Have you really done Tae Kwon Do? If so, is your instructor/"dan" working for the WTF or the ATF?
> 
> What belt are you? And NO, there is no such thing as a "junior black belt".  :
> 
> BTW, your thread title is very astute. It should be titled "Who here is AN active martial artist?".



?? What?? That came way out from left field!? I 'studied' WTF, I have never even heard of ATF (did you mean ITF!?), and my instructor was a 4th degree... Kyle something (?) from waterloo.

Have you done any MA's cougar daddy?! You have come in here and commented on other things but have not given us any information on your training background?


----------



## Rocketryan

Im taking Martial Arts class this semester, Jujitsu I think...
Im a white belt 

I did take Martial Arts way back when I was younger for 3 or 4 years


----------



## medaid

Piper if you're going to train in BJJ for sport only, then I say it cool and you should go for it. If you're doing it so it'll benefit you in the military I say don't do it. BJJ is what the US Army has adopted and it's an ineffective POS for military applications.


----------



## Kat Stevens

My style is cha-ching-pow-pow.


----------



## Strike

10 yrs off and on WTF TKD.  Going for my black belt in May.  Love to spar and am having a blast helping with kids' classes.


----------



## TN2IC

Krav maga I want to start...  ;D


----------



## MedTechStudent

I did Judo for almost two years.  Until some yellow belt jumped onto my back as I was getting up, breaking two of my fingers back to my wrist.  After that I could not really grip for a long while.


----------



## muskrat89

My 10-yr old daughter has been in karate for about 3 years. Now getting pretty serious into sparring and grappling too. She's a brawler though - not a lot of finesse yet   Sensei "loves her aggression" though  lol


----------



## Future Prodigy

muskrat - one of the nice things about wtf taekwondo, is that the majority of the adult classes are run at the same time as the children's classes... so, if you were interested in learning a MA along with your daughter, that would be a good option. I know a lot of parents who do this solely because it allows them to 'share' something with their son/daughter.


----------



## CDNBlackhawk

Anyone here know of any martial arts  or MMA clubs in the Petawawa or Pembroke area.  I've been looking but havent found much yet.


----------



## Strike

Chech out the bingo room (upstairs) at the Petawawa ice rink.  The one in town, not the one on the base.  I can't remember what nights the taekwondo club trains but if you call the manager's office at the rink they could tell you when it's booked.  Probably stopped for the summer though.


----------



## CDNBlackhawk

Thanks I'll look into that, so far all i have found was Kung Fu, and Karate, Karate is run at the Civic center on base and i think its geared more towards kids.


----------



## blacktriangle

On a related note is krav maga offered at either of the PPCLI bases?


----------



## brendanhm1

Anything? And not talking about cardio-box or whatever the PSP runs....


----------



## Strike

You'll have a hard time finding anything offered by any CF institution labelled as MMA.  Has to do with their aversion to combat sports.  Don't get me started.  I know that taekwondo, fencing, karate, etc are all combat sports and are accepted as clubs by PSP.  It has more to do with the lack of a national governing body in the sport than anything else.

Your best bet would be to find a jiu-jitsu club or see if anyone there knows anything about 'submission wrestling' which is what we call it here in Kingston.  (Note that the SW club IS endorsed by the base commander here.)


----------



## twistedcables

Give the MMA a few more years - its gaining ground very quickly and will soon see official recognition (I hope).  Good luck though finding something.


----------



## brendanhm1

Just thought I'd make my post a little less specific...Anyone know of MMA, Ju-Jitsu, boxing, muay thai etc. gyms in Pet or nearby area????


----------



## Pat Hickey

I know this is a lil' late but...I live in P.G. and train under Master Forster Sr. And yes, his son, Master Russell Forster, still teaches Hapkido out of Cold Lake. Hapkido is great because it teaches you meat-and-potatoes punches, kicks, blocks and counters, knife-hand/hammer fist strikes. Plus, you are introduced to crippling/maiming joint-locks right away. It is highly practical and the joint-locks and throws, like aikido, emphasises using the attackers momentum against them; meaning a 160lbs guy can reasonably expect to win against a 240 lbs guy. And the best part, no restrictions. Be as brutal as you *need* to be. Cheers. =)


----------



## Nauticus

Pat Hickey said:
			
		

> I know this is a lil' late but...I live in P.G. and train under Master Forster Sr. And yes, his son, Master Russell Forster, still teaches Hapkido out of Cold Lake. Hapkido is great because it teaches you meat-and-potatoes punches, kicks, blocks and counters, knife-hand/hammer fist strikes. Plus, you are introduced to crippling/maiming joint-locks right away. It is highly practical and the joint-locks and throws, like aikido, emphasises using the attackers momentum against them; meaning a 160lbs guy can reasonably expect to win against a 240 lbs guy. And the best part, no restrictions. Be as brutal as you *need* to be. Cheers. =)


Momentum and leverage are two things Brazilian Jiu Jitsu teaches, as well. Myself, I've done BJJ and submission wrestling for about 7 years. Although its a great martial art, Krav Maga (Israeli special forces art) looks like it would be very useful to know.

Question for all: As an infantryman stationed in Edmonton or Petawawa, is it realistic to be able to pursue a martial art class a few times a week off-base?


----------



## SoldierInTheMaking

I enjoy it all I did a bit of Mixed Martial Arts, and a lot of boxing. I'll most definitely take some classes later on in my career(as an infantryman).


----------



## VIChris

A great discussion! 

And a testament to the maturity on this forum. I've subscribed to a few others, mostly automotive related, and without exception, martial arts discussions always end with bickering and banning.

As was mentioned here keeping it simple is the key. A parable I learned early on in my martial arts training was that of the cat and the fox:

The cat and fox were sitting in a field one day. The fox asks the cat "what is your favourite way to escape a chasing dog?" The cat simply replies "I only have one way, I climb the nearest high point, and wait until he leaves." The fox, in a mocking tone, tells the cat of all the ways he can escape. Just then, a hungry dog closes on their spot. The cat runs up the nearest tree. Meanwhile, the fox looks to a hollowed out log to hide under, next he considers a fence to shoot under - too low for the dog to follow, while contemplating out-swimming the dog in a nearby creek, the dog catches the fox. 

I had to tell myself this story everytime I taught classes. It helped me not only to remember to keep the techniques simple, but also to keep my teachings simple.

How this is relevant to our discussion on military martial arts, it would be that the simplest methods are the ones to be taught. I didn't know about the Marines martial arts program until reading about it here. The way I see it, if it works, it could be adapted for the CF. Why re-invent the wheel, and adapt a non-military program to our needs, if a military specific one already exists?

I think too, that the next logical question is how does this become a reality? I understand that the CF isn't a democracy, and petitioning from the junior ranks is probably not the best way to go. Are there any official forums this can be brought to? Any way to respectfully re-open the issue at a command level?


----------



## rytel

I sighed when I saw this topic, because martial arts threads almost always spiral into pointless 'my sensei can kick your sensei's ass' style bickering.  Good stuff keeping this one civil!

I wish there was some aspect of even basic hand-to-hand combat taught as part of PT and self-development.  Yes it's aggressive, but tough.

If a CF member gets in a fight off the clock, I'd want them to be able to handle themselves well, while minimizing injury to all parties.

If a CF member gets in a hand-to-hand fight in theatre, I sure as hell don't want us to be the ones freezing up.

It's an important part of combat knowledge that should not be overlooked, and I hope to blend some into PT as soon as I get the chance.  I wonder how much paperwork I'll need to make that happen though...


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## NovaScotiaNewfie

Mojo Magnum said:
			
		

> Ok guys, as a new recruit who loves martial arts,
> 
> I get the impression that hand to hand combat training is not as "front and center" in the CF as I had thought."
> 
> Where did you get the idea that hand to hand combat or Close Quarters Combat (CQC) was "front and center" in the CF? Just wondering if you saw something footage of the CF training etc that made you think that they ddi more of CQC/Hand to hand?


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## Tharris

Cpl Massecar said:
			
		

> Where is there a sytema school in Hamilton? I'd like to check it out.



I think the closest is in Toronto.  Went a couple of times before time constraints made it impossible - quite good, but Sambo or Krav Maga might be more effective if you are looking at starting a new martial art.  

T.


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## Knuckles

Hey all,

I just got posted and get the feeling I'm gonna get bored, so I've decided to take up martial arts classes on the side. My question is: Does the military compensate for some of the fees and if so what is the process I need to follow to get things rolling?

Thanks in advance,

Knuckles


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## PMedMoe

No they don't.


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## Strike

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> No they don't.



Some units will cover certain forms of training.  I know The RCR got their taekwondo training in Petawawa covered as there was no base club.

If you can wait until Saturday I may be able to get a better answer for you as I have to talk to the patron for CF/CISM TKD tomorrow afternoon about that very topic as I don't believe there's a base club in Edmonton (although I do believe I may be "convinced" by said patron to set one up).


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## PMedMoe

That's news.  The only thing I ever heard covered was gym memberships.

So we can pick any sport and if there's not a base club, some costs would be covered?  I mean, seriously, there can't be a base club for everything.


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## Roy Harding

Thanks, Strike - I knew you'd be along to answer this one.

For Knuckles:  Strike knows what she's talking about - I'd wait to hear from her before spending too much money.  On the OTHER hand - I'm aware of various Kick-Boxing, Judo, and Karate clubs available on various bases - for which costs range from free to minimal.  Check with your PERI staff (someone help me here - what are PERIs called nowadays??) regarding what clubs may be active at your location.


Roy


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## PMedMoe

Roy Harding said:
			
		

> Check with your PERI staff (someone help me here - what are PERIs called nowadays??) regarding what clubs may be active at your location.
> 
> Roy



PSP


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## Roy Harding

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> PSP



Knuckles:  What she said (PSP)


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## Biohazardxj

Roy

I believe they are referred to as PSP or "Personal Support Program" Staff.

I still call them gym teachers.  LOL


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## Roy Harding

SGT-RMSCLK said:
			
		

> Roy
> 
> I believe they are referred to as PSP or "Personal Support Program" Staff.
> 
> I still call them gym teachers.  LOL



I won't say what I used to call 'em.  They used to run the "pre-para" course in Petawawa - and they (the ones I dealt with, anyway) were all freakin' gorillas!  They certainly knew how to "beast" us.

Anyway - I'll be interested to hear what Strike has to say regarding her meeting in Edmonton; as I'm sure is Knuckles.


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## Strike

Moe, in the case of The RCR situation, they were mostly covered because it constituted training that was beneficial to the Infantry.  Now, however, TKD is recognized by the military, as mentioned in a CANFORGEN that came out earlier this year.  I'm sitting in a hotel right now and don't have easy access to the DIN so you'll forgive me if I don't post this reference.

All the sports listed on this CANFORGEN are activities that are recognized by the CF, in that you don't need CoC permission to participate and will be covered if you get hurt going to, competing in, or coming back from an event.  It also means that money is available for members to be sent to and compete in certain approved events.

As for the support to attending training by a non-base club/team, I'm still not sure about that one, but should by COB tomorrow.


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## PMedMoe

Strike,

Found this on a CFPSA Bulletin:



> EXTREME SPORTS: CMP recently authorized the inclusion of Extreme Sports within the CF Sports Program. CANFORGEN 061/09 CMP 061655Z APR 09 provides details. CFAO 50-3 paragraph 31 is amended to include Extreme Sports.


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## Strike

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> Strike,
> 
> Found this on a CFPSA Bulletin:



Thanks Moe.

For those who are wondering, that means that certain X-Sports will cover you in case of injury.  However, it is still the responsibility of the member to ensure the CoC is aware that they are training/participating in such sports.

Makes me happy so I don't have to worry about negative feedback when I start up my MMA training again.


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## BigLou42

Hey guys, me again

I did a search in the search engine but couldn't find anything, so I'll ask here. What would the most useful martial art to learn be if I'm planning on joining the Infantry Reserves? I hear that TKD cant really be used in full kit, and supposedly Judo is useful for the Infantry. Also, does anyone know if Reserve Units offer martial arts? To be exact, does anyone know if the Royal Westminster Infantry Regiment offers martial arts?

Thanks,

BigLou


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## ModlrMike

If you have to resort to a martial art, you're too f***ing close! If units offer training, it's done as part of their overall fitness programme. Given the demands of martial arts training, I doubt that they would offer it.


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## Kat Stevens

I would recommend you learn Ka Ching Pow Pow.  You can learn it on any Toronto street corner.


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## BigLou42

Ok, cool, I'll have to check it out.

Thing is though I'm in Burnaby, BC, and I was thinking of taking up Systema but the only places that do it near me is the one school on Vancouver Island, which is waaay too far to go for lessons.


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## Kat Stevens

There are some fine Ka Ching Pow Pow instructors in the GVRD too, mostly in Surrey and Richmond, though.


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## BigLou42

Alright I'll look into that, thanks.


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## Jarnhamar

I think any martial art is better than no martial art.Confidence and physical fitness are biggies.

I did Taekwondo for a few years,found it was too sports orientated for me.
Have a few years of Aikido and a couple months MMA and both have worked well.


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## blacktriangle

Jeeze Kat, just wait until he trys to sign up for that at the YMCA....  ;D


Flawed Design: How costly are those classes to take? Do you get a good workout from them? I need to sign up for something as I'm getting bored of running and hitting the gym...swimming is my new thing, for now...

Thanks.


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## Jarnhamar

popnfresh said:
			
		

> Flawed Design: How costly are those classes to take? Do you get a good workout from them? I need to sign up for something as I'm getting bored of running and hitting the gym...swimming is my new thing, for now...
> 
> Thanks.



Costs vary.  I'm paying $100 for 3 months currently. Some places (albeit not many) charge less, some like 'Fang Shen Do Kung-Fu' which are all over the place charge a lot more.  Lots of places are big money grabs or act as daycare schools. Taekwondo is bad for that.

Workouts vary depending on the school and how serious they are about training. Roll around on the ground with someone for 2 or 3 minutes and you'll be ready to barf.


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## Antoine

I was doing TKD for a while during my teenage time, the TKD style was changing accordling to the school affiliated Grand Master. In my case, the school was more on the sport than the fighting. Also, we didn't use much of our fist, it was far from kick boxing, and we were not allowed to hit the face until reaching the black belt.

So it depends what you are looking for, closer to combat or more to sport, also you prefere develop your ability in graping and/or ground stuff such as judo or Aikido, the non-ground-all-on-your-feet like TKD and Karate or the full in your face like the kick boxing. There are also the Russian one and so on that are described in the present thread. Don't forget to get "a smell" of the general students attitude, as some schools are more friendly "we are all here to learn and doing sport" and other are competition oriented or fighting oriented.

In any case, martial art it is a great training, I miss it.

my  :2c:


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## PMedMoe

Strike said:
			
		

> Moe, in the case of The RCR situation, they were mostly covered because it constituted training that was beneficial to the Infantry.  Now, however, TKD is recognized by the military, as mentioned in a CANFORGEN that came out earlier this year.  I'm sitting in a hotel right now and don't have easy access to the DIN so you'll forgive me if I don't post this reference.
> 
> All the sports listed on this CANFORGEN are activities that are recognized by the CF, in that you don't need CoC permission to participate and will be covered if you get hurt going to, competing in, or coming back from an event.  It also means that money is available for members to be sent to and compete in certain approved events.
> 
> As for the support to attending training by a non-base club/team, I'm still not sure about that one, but should by COB tomorrow.



Here's the CANFORGEN regarding Extreme Sports.  Please note that there is no info in this regarding funding.  That may be something you have to take up with your base/unit.

CANFORGEN link (access on DWAN only)

CANFORGEN 061/09 CMP 027/09 061655Z APR 09
CHANGES TO THE CF SPORTS PROGRAM
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. CF HEALTH AND PHYSICAL FITNESS STRATEGY 
B. CFAO 50-3 

1.     OVER THE PAST 18 MONTHS, THE CF HAVE PLACED GREAT EMPHASIS ON PHYSICAL FITNESS. THE SPORTS PROGRAM HAS TRADITIONALLY BEEN AN IMPORTANT MEANS OF IMPROVING AND MAINTAINING THE PHYSICAL FITNESS LEVELS OF CF MEMBERS. 

2.     IN RECOGNITION OF THE IMPORTANCE OF SPORT, THE FOLLOWING SPORTS WILL BE ADDED TO THE CF NATIONAL SPORTS PROGRAM EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY: GOLF, TRIATHLON, TAEKWONDO, SWIMMING, WOMEN S SOCCER AND THE CF ATHLETIC CHALLENGE WHICH WILL INCLUDE SPORTS ACTIVITIES SUCH AS SHOOTING, SWIMMING, RUNNING AND OBSTACLE RACE. 

3.     THE CF CISM SPORTS PROGRAM WILL ALSO BE EXPANDED TO INCLUDE FENCING AND MILITARY PENTATHLON 

4.     IN ADDITION REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT CAMPS WILL BE FUNDED AND GRANTED THE SAME STATUS AS REGIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS FOR TRIATHLON, SWIMMING AND TAEKWONDO. REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT CAMPS WILL PROVIDE ATHLETIC AND COACHING DEVELOPMENT AND WILL ASSIST IN THE SELECTION OF ATHLETES FOR CF NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS 

5.     EXTREME SPORTS WILL ALSO BE ADDED TO THE SPORTS PROGRAM. THE MEDIA USE THE TERM EXTREME SPORTS, ALSO CALLED ACTION SPORTS AND ADVENTURE SPORTS, TO DESIGNATE CERTAIN ACTIVITIES PERCEIVED AS HAVING A HIGH LEVEL OF INHERENT RISK OR DIFFICULTY AND OFTEN INVOLVING SPEED, HEIGHT, A HIGH LEVEL OF PHYSICAL EXERTION, AND HIGHLY SPECIALIZED EQUIPMENT 

6.     TO IMPLEMENT EXTREME SPORTS, REF B PARA 31 IS DELETED AND REPLACED BY THE FOLLOWING: QUOTE THE ENTRY OF INDIVIDUALS INTO CIVILIAN COMPETITIONS INCLUDING EXTREME SPORTS AND ACTIVITIES SHALL BE AUTHORIZED WHEN SUCH PARTICIPATION MAY BE EXPECTED TO BRING CREDIT TO THE CF. THE CONDITIONS AND APPROVING AUTHORITIES FOR PARTICIPATION IN CIVILIAN COMPETITIONS ARE CONTAINED IN ANNEX B. APPLICATION FOR APPROVAL SHALL BE SUBMITTED IN ACCORDANCE WITH APPENDIX 1 TO ANNEX B. IN NO CASE WILL PARTICIPATION IN CIVILIAN COMPETITIONS TAKE PRIORITY OVER THE DEVELOPMENT OF BASE PROGRAMS OR CONFLICT WITH PARTICIPATION IN CF REGIONAL OR NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS. ADDITIONALLY APPLICANTS WHO WISH TO PARTICIPATE IN EXTREME SPORTS AND ACTIVITIES ARE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION: 

(A) A DETAILED RESUME OUTLINING THE MEMBERS EXPERIENCE, QUALIFICATIONS CERTIFICATIONS AND PREPAREDNESS RELATING TO PARTICIPATION IN THE SPORTS COMPETITION OR ACTIVITY IDENTIFYING POTENTIAL RISKS AND STEPS TAKEN TO MITIGATE THEM 

(B) RESULTS OF A VALID CF FITNESS EVALUATION COMPLETED WITHIN SIX MONTHS OF THE COMMENCEMENT OF THE SPORTS COMPETITION OR ACTIVITY 

(C) FOR COMPETITIONS OR ACTIVITIES THAT CONTAIN ANY WATER-RELATED SEGMENT, THE MEMBER MUST SHOW PROOF OF COMPLETING THE CF BASIC MILITARY SWIM STANDARD TEST WITHIN SIX MONTHS OF THE COMMENCEMENT OF THE SPORTS COMPETITION OR ACTIVITY 

(D) A STATEMENT DESCRIBING HOW PARTICIPATION IN THE EXTREME SPORT OR ACTIVITY RELATES TO SERVICE AS A MILITARY MEMBER UNQUOTE 

7.     THE FOLLOWING IS A LIST OF EXTREME SPORTS AND ACTIVITIES THAT ARE *NOT* COVERED BY THIS POLICY: 

(A) MOTORIZED SPORTING ACTIVITIES SUCH AS: RALLY, MOTOR RACING AND ULTRA LIGHT FLYING 

(B) BOXING 

(C) EXTREME COMBAT ACTIVITIES SUCH AS: ULTIMATE FIGHTING, MIXED MARTIAL ARTS 

(D) HUMANITARIAN AND CHARITABLE PROJECTS 

(E) ORGANIZED MILITARY MARCHES, E.G. THE NIJMEGEN MARCHES 

(F) BUNGEE JUMPING 

8.     QUESTIONS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO DGPFSS DSRM, JOHANNE THIBAULT AT 613-992-0424 

9.     THESE CHANGES SERVE TO STRENGTHEN THE CF S COMMITMENT TO PHYSICAL FITNESS AND HEALTH AS DETAILED IN THE CF HEALTH AND FITNESS STRATEGY


----------



## Jarnhamar

The CF endorses TaeKwonDoe but not 

(B) BOXING
or
(C) EXTREME COMBAT ACTIVITIES SUCH AS: ULTIMATE FIGHTING, MIXED MARTIAL ARTS 

Silliness


----------



## a_majoor

Yoga isn't normally thought of as a martial art....


----------



## VIChris




----------



## PuckChaser

Flawed Design said:
			
		

> The CF endorses TaeKwonDoe but not
> 
> (B) BOXING
> or
> (C) EXTREME COMBAT ACTIVITIES SUCH AS: ULTIMATE FIGHTING, MIXED MARTIAL ARTS
> 
> Silliness



Considering most of the techniques covered in the CF approved Close Quarter Combat course are Boxing, Jiu-Jitsu, Hapkido, etc, its positively insane that "Extreme Combat Activities" would not be covered in a profession that requires all members to perform in combat situations at a moments notice.


----------



## ballz

We had this discussion in another thread about TKD and Muay Thai and various other combative sports.

I am of the opinion that these sports would benefit most members, if not only for the fitness aspect of it. I can see an argument not to let members compete in such sports, but definitely think you should be allowed to train in those areas.

I am currently trying to get approved to train in Muay Thai, not compete, but just to train. It is a great workout, fun, motivational, and obviously could have it's uses, even if it's only a mental and fitness edge. If I can't get it approved, I'm hoping to get Kenpo Karate approved, since TKD and Kenpo are different arts but in competition they're nearly identical. I may also try for BJJ approval. Training in BJJ is very safe. As long as you're not stupid enough to not tap, little damage can be done. If you are that dumb, you might deserve to have your arm snapped off.

I also remember looking at the many CF Sports HOF members that are posted up at the Mega, and a large amount of them were for boxing. Boxing is such a traditional military sport too. I agree whole-heartedly you should be able to train in these areas.

It is definitely back asswards.


----------



## Brodie

Not sure if this is the right place for this thread.

Many bases now have BJJ clubs and I am just newly posted to CFB Edmonton and am hooping to train at the base gym.


----------



## mariomike

Brodie said:
			
		

> Not sure if this is the right place for this thread.



For reference, perhaps,

Is there any BJJ going on at the base gym at CFB Edmonton?

will be merged with,

The Martial Arts Superthread 
http://army.ca/forums/threads/706.150.html
7 pages.


----------

