# Paintball is now a cadet approved activity but it comes with strict guidelines!



## shreenan (14 Jun 2012)

So all your wishing for paintball has worked out for you. 

Paintball is now a cadet approved activity but it comes with strict guidelines which I will list below.

1. A written request must be submitted to the detachment from the CO
2. The activity must be 100% optional and in no shape or form a competition
3. The cadet corps may not become a paintball club or league member
4. The unit may not purchase any paintball equipment for any such activities
5. All equipment that is needed for the activity must be provided by the Paintball company
6. Any paintball markers that are designed to look like actual firearms are not permitted
7. Cadets are not permitted to wear any cadet uniform including field training dress nor any type of combat or camouflage pattern clothing while participating in Paintball activities as a cadet unit
8. Paintball activities may only happen at a paintball facility established for the purpose of providing and facilitating Paintball activities
9. All protection equipment including head and eye protection must be provided by the company and all cadets must wear protective gear
10. The company must have established and enforced rules
11. Paintball company personnel must be first aid qualified
12. The business must provide a safety briefing for all participants

There is absolutely no exception to these rules so do not ask

Makes me happy that Cadets Canada sees paintball more then MILSIM or war games. :nod:


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## my72jeep (15 Jun 2012)

Do you have the original Message that came out on say CRCO,CRCSO, or CATO#


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## shreenan (15 Jun 2012)

No my corps just sent out an email with that info in it.


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## Ambrivian (4 Jul 2012)

We played paintball as a corps two years ago funded by the Sponsoring Committee, we got written up for it but still managed to get best cadet corps in BC that year...


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## Anatomic Golf (4 Jul 2012)

I have not seen any CATO's for this as of yet and until such time I won't be looking at this until so published.


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## RememberanceDay (7 Jul 2012)

Finally! We can play battle ship! YESSSS!!!!


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## my72jeep (7 Jul 2012)

As Oxner said there is yet to be a CATO or a CRCSO to be issued so till then I'd wait.


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## dogger1936 (7 Jul 2012)

Why wait? if you want to try the activity push it forward to your det for approval. They will be in the know if it's approved or not.

I got a little chuckle when I seen it's been finally approved. I did a risk assessment and a full report and forwarded it up after having one corp denied from regional with no other reason than "dangerous" and "we never did allow it" (where I come from people use to tell us WHY something wasnt approved with reasons). In a way I hope I at least fixed that one thing in the big mess of careerist CIC bureaucratic B/S.


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## my72jeep (7 Jul 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> Why wait? if you want to try the activity push it forward to your det for approval. They will be in the know if it's approved or not.
> 
> I got a little chuckle when I seen it's been finally approved. I did a risk assessment and a full report and forwarded it up after having one corp denied from regional with no other reason than "dangerous" and "we never did allow it" (where I come from people use to tell us WHY something wasnt approved with reasons). In a way I hope I at least fixed that one thing in the big mess of careerist CIC bureaucratic B/S.


Unless you det has said copy of the CATO approving paint ball they Will say no. CATO's come from NDHQ/DCdts sent to all at the same time.


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## dogger1936 (7 Jul 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Unless you det has said copy of the CATO approving paint ball they Will say no. CATO's come from NDHQ/DCdts sent to all at the same time.



I know you guys like pretending everything is a complicated mess; however if your ACA/ACO office is willing to do some leg work they can get pretty well any grey area approved. It's easier to deny anything that doesn't have CATO or not and most likely that is what the ACO's will go with.

We had approved cadet paintball before this announcement; advise me how I did this.


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## my72jeep (7 Jul 2012)

Don't know how you Approved an activity that WE have been told is a no no for the last 8 years and if you did it cool. I tried I was told no and it was a National policy so we did something else.


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## dogger1936 (7 Jul 2012)

I'll tell you how.

It's called asking WHERE IT IS WRITTEN. This causes little empires in the CIC to crumble as they blow fish kisses at you on a policy that doesn't exist and runs on rumors and someones opinion.

I have no doubt you were TOLD. That seems to be the final word coming out of many ACO dept's as people are too lazy to look up any references in regards to the program. The det commander who remembers it being refused when he was the det commander in '86 says no and the ACO shrugs his shoulders and denies the request.

The only reasoning I found was 4 elderly civilians in the same uniforms I buried my comrades in sitting around saying it COULD be bad optics. And that it COULD be dangerous. Where is this national policy? Made up by someone as you said about 8 years ago.

The CIC world is full of these careerist empire building losers. There is no rooting out the lazy, incompetence, and people there to make a full Canadian forces pension ( and not there for the youth organisation). There is a reason the program is dying; it's the amount of careerist CIC who decide to make new spreadsheets and off the cuff decisions to make themselves look important to someone the next level up; thus securing another year of employment at Capt/Maj pay.

The ACO dept and det KNOWS you as a CO has been burdened by SO much B/S developed by the det; that you don't have time to ask questions. And if you had to question stuff your kids would suffer and training wouldn't occur.

What seems to have happened is the det's little empires forget that they are employed to administer this cadet program. Taking some of the burden off the CO's and making his training possible.

Instead many take the approach that they being at det level should be afforded some type of worship as the "makers of all things that happen".

I advise if you have issues with the constant denial of RCP1's and issues purchasing things at your det level write it down. Get on cadetnet and discuss issues with the other CO's and draft a memo to the det (and regional HQ) about issues you are having with your ACO. Too many times I heard gripes and complaints from people about ACO x denying stuff which they should have got. Yet no one does anything about it. Get it on record before Capt wonderful makes his next job appearance at regional level making more great decisions and rulings. 

Oh and the whole report I did on paintball being a viable sporting activity (and no more dangerous than camping in bear country or allowing kids to fly gliders or jump out of airplanes)took me all of a week during lull's in the RCP1's. I'm glad to see something made it all the way up and changed.

Having said all that rant if your denied ask why. And "because" albeit is an excellent way for someone to feel important and powerful; isn't an answer.

<Rant over>


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## my72jeep (7 Jul 2012)

OK you hate the CIC, Enough

I'm going by what my CoC told me I asked they said no, OK some battles arn't worth fighting. Like this one.


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## muskrat89 (7 Jul 2012)

dogger - your message with a different tone could have been a benefit to folks trying to enhance their Corps' activities. Instead it reads as a chest-thumping, condescending diatribe that holds little value to anybody.

Assuming everyone is on the same team here, and trying to achieve similar goals - of what benefit (other than your own self-satisfaction) does that communication style provide?

Seriously.

jeep - sometimes identifying the safe and mission-positive "absence" of clear direction is not a bad thing. Part of playing by the rules is knowing where there are gaps. If you choose not to utilize this in operating your own organization, so be it.

Army.ca Staff


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## my72jeep (7 Jul 2012)

Muskrat89 well said and Seen. I've been going back through 10 years of correspondence looking for the memo that was sent out detailing why it was verboten.


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## dogger1936 (7 Jul 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> OK you hate the CIC, Enough
> 
> I'm going by what my CoC told me I asked they said no, OK some battles arn't worth fighting. Like this one.



Contrary to what you think I have utmost respect for many (95% of those I've met) of the CO's and staff doing things to support their communities youth. Infact much of my "hate" is how many issues ACO's and Det's cause for CO's who frankly don't have the time to waste with pointless frivolousness which does nothing for the youth and is frankly B/S made up at det level.

All the rant above is basically to say don't take no for an answer without a reason. And "someone said so" isn't a reason; it's an opinion. And don't allow people in your higher organisation to walk all over you at corp level. Take the time to draft a memo to regional command about the insane stuff you guys are expected to be doing ( some assume CIC have nothing better to do in their life's than check cadetnet). My time at the det I heard nothing but complaints and tried to act on many of them from my angle...but you guys have to get problems on paper and staffed. Issues must be addressed and recorded.

Muskrat89: Seen understood and agree in hindsight.


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## catalyst (8 Jul 2012)

dogger1936 said:
			
		

> some assume CIC have nothing better to do in their life's than check cadetnet)



A lot better worded. You rock - even though you made me spit my drink out over my laptop...............


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## dogger1936 (8 Jul 2012)

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> A lot better worded. You rock - even though you made me spit my drink out over my laptop...............



Cheer's.

I'm much the same in real life. Slightly bitter with a low tolerance for B/S, failure; and being mission orientated in all I do. Read past the anger in the first post and I'm sure most agree with me; most CIC did in real life anyway. Minus those who I will now refer to as "DeadDet heads" to clarify/minimize insult to those in the broader Cadets Canada.

The program has some serious issues. Maybe i'll write a non judgmental post one day with what I seen as the major issues.

The program is near dead in this province due to total mismanagement from a top heavy organisation. 3 corps chopped last year and many more without more than a year or two left in total. 


EDIT: Dogger, I fixed the 'quote' box. Bruce


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## my72jeep (8 Jul 2012)

Dogger I hear you 20 years now with cadets has me bitter too. With me its 50% CIC Det heads and 50% Ex Regs in cushy jobs padding there pension.
only about 25% are any good 50% so so 25% waist of rations.
Of the 50% CIC in the Det 30% have only ever worked the Cadet world and don't know any better.
I'm lucky in my Det we have a mix of CIC, COATS, Reg, and Reserve that work for the cadets and will bend to the extreams to help.


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## dogger1936 (8 Jul 2012)

my72jeep said:
			
		

> Dogger I hear you 20 years now with cadets has me bitter too. With me its 50% CIC Det heads and 50% Ex Regs in cushy jobs padding there pension.
> only about 25% are any good 50% so so 25% waist of rations.
> Of the 50% CIC in the Det 30% have only ever worked the Cadet world and don't know any better.
> I'm lucky in my Det we have a mix of CIC, COATS, Reg, and Reserve that work for the cadets and will bend to the extreams to help.



You are 100% correct. And I'm glad to hear good stories coming out from det's. Other ACA's I've had the privilege to meet have expressed much of the same opinion as I.

In the det I worked 90% if not 100% of the CIC were all ex cadets who re rolled into the CIC when they aged out and have made their adult career out of cadets. It's a class B empire of old cadet friends. 20-30 year officer career's should not be made out of a after school youth program IMHO. People at Det/ regional should be short term ( 2-3 years tops) where they can focus on supporting corps; and not positioning their next career move. I do not agree with 38 year old people retiring from cadets with a federal pension of Captain/ Maj pay. I see youth programs where volunteers are not even paid. Continue the class A pay but B class has and must be limited to short term postings at det's/regional's and summer camps.

There is a reason the Det has "gone through" 2 reg force ACO's (soon to be three) and 4 ACA's in less than 2 years.


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## dogger1936 (8 Jul 2012)

shreenan said:
			
		

> So all your wishing for paintball has worked out for you.
> 
> Paintball is now a cadet approved activity but it comes with strict guidelines which I will list below.
> 
> 1. A written request must be submitted to the detachment from the CO



Strict Guidelines such as this really annoy me because I know what it's going to turn/has turned into. Instead of the RCP1 being the only thing required (as it should be) to do this approved activity they will now use this to get the corp CO's writing memorandums in addition to the RCP1 for approval.

This is the tiny stuff that add's up running way too far into the personal life's of CO's at corp level. Again people with full time jobs expecting more out of part time volunteers.

This right here is one thing that aggravated me to no end.

Edit to add: To add there should be no requirement to inform the Det CO of your intention to do this activity. If it's a preapproved site (like scuba) theres no requirement to involve anyone aside from the ACA's. Bureaucratic uselessness of cadets canada.


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## JMesh (31 Aug 2012)

Perhaps I can shed a little light on this.

In Atlantic Region, it is an approved activity. The former Commanding Officer of Regional Cadet Support Unit (Atlantic), Cdr GL Reddy, issued a memorandum - Commanding Officer's Temporary Memorandum (COTM, for short) 06/12 - Cadet Unit Paintball Activities. It states very clearly what is and is not permitted. All Atlantic Region members should be able to find this in the COTM Conference on the main page of CadetNet.

As far as other regions go, I couldn't tell you.


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## Sloaner (6 Sep 2012)

In central region CRCO 1803 Cadet Training Para 5 states:

"5. Tactical exercises with weapons (real or simulated) and “war games” are forbidden"

Until that changes its still a no go in Central without many alyers of discussion and assurances.  That said, its not impossible, just very hard.


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## CIgreene (24 Oct 2012)

Were under Atlantic and I just checked with our CO and it is approved but everything must go Through one vendor.  The rules are very sticky.


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