# German Army - No tents, no vests, no mukluks....



## Kirkhill (19 Feb 2018)

> Germany's Bundeswehr 'lacks basic equipment' for NATO mission
> The German army reportedly lacks the tents, winter clothes and other essential equipment needed for its deployment in a NATO rapid reaction force. The German defense ministry pledged that the items would be procured.
> 
> German soldiers do not have enough protective vests, winter clothing and tents to head NATO's 'spearhead force,' the newspaper Rheinische Post reported on Monday, citing a paper presented to the Defense Ministry.



http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-bundeswehr-lacks-basic-equipment-for-nato-mission/a-42638910


----------



## Old Sweat (19 Feb 2018)

Seems to me they have a tradition of just that.  :waiting:


----------



## dimsum (19 Feb 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Seems to me they have a tradition of just that.  :waiting:



Sounds like storytime  :nod:


----------



## Old Sweat (19 Feb 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Sounds like storytime  :nod:



Try invading the Soviet Union and not supplying the troops with winter kit.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (19 Feb 2018)

All I'm really interested in is how long it takes and if the gear is satisfactory.

They have identified the problem. Now let's see how long before it's on issue to them.

Bet it won't take 15 years and a dozen trials everytime someone gets posted in with a new idea.

We've known for a good two years that we have no mukluks, tents and other arctic kit. Bet we haven't even ordered replacements yet.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (19 Feb 2018)

Canada can't even screw the pooch properly, as the pooch died 15 years ago and we are still pretending. The next war will be won by the country with the least "fu*ked up" procurement system.


----------



## dimsum (19 Feb 2018)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Canada can't even screw the pooch properly, as the pooch died 15 years ago and we are still pretending.



So...Canada is a necrophiliac?


----------



## daftandbarmy (19 Feb 2018)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> So...Canada is a necrophiliac?



No... we're probably more like Richard Sanden  

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ohio-man-richard-sanden-accused-of-sex-with-corpse-tries-to-explain/


----------



## Old Sweat (19 Feb 2018)

In the ante integration Canadian Army the only troops that were issued winter kit and regularly exercised in cold weather were the three Defence of Canada Force infantry battalions. The rest of us had access to a pool of winter equipment to conduct winter indoctrination, although Western Canadian units seemed to do a bit better. And I guess that included the RCHA detachment deployed in the Roger's Pass to carry out avalanche control fire missions.

Most of the field force did not have winter exercises, but might do a bit of trips to the ranges and the like. Our focus was on Germany, and that country might have been wet and miserable in the winter, but snow was rare. After all, the generation that was running the army had spent the winter of 1944-1945 there in battledress and greatcoats.


----------



## FJAG (19 Feb 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> Try invading the Soviet Union and not supplying the troops with winter kit.



In fairness the original plan for Operation Barbarossa called for an April start date with Moscow and Russia's army and primary industrial centers secured in September. As it was, for various reason the kickoff was delayed until late June and the phase for taking Moscow didn't actually start until end September. Add to that a particularly wet October that turned roads and fields to quagmire and slowed the advance dramatically and you can see where things went off the rails. At this point there was no real option to hold off for winter the upcoming winter and to pause. Germany might have been able to produce large amounts of winter clothing but had no chance to make it's mechanized equipment capable of efficient cold weather operations. The only logical course was to push on, keep the Russians off balance and wreak maximum damage on them before winter came.

The problem wasn't so much in the plan. It called for an achievable victory before winter came. The problem was once the initial attack was delayed, the high command took a calculated risk that it would still achieve success before winter set in. By 2 Dec the lead elements were 24 km from Moscow. That's when the first storms struck. The high command had gambled and lost. In his grave, Napoleon smiled.

 :cheers:


----------



## Fishbone Jones (19 Feb 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> In the ante integration Canadian Army the only troops that were issued winter kit and regularly exercised in cold weather were the three Defence of Canada Force infantry battalions. The rest of us had access to a pool of winter equipment to conduct winter indoctrination, although Western Canadian units seemed to do a bit better. And I guess that included the RCHA detachment deployed in the Roger's Pass to carry out avalanche control fire missions.
> 
> Most of the field force did not have winter exercises, but might do a bit of trips to the ranges and the like. Our focus was on Germany, and that country might have been wet and miserable in the winter, but snow was rare. After all, the generation that was running the army had spent the winter of 1944-1945 there in battledress and greatcoats.



By the early 70s, I  _think_ every cbt arms unit, in Canada, was issued full winter kit. I'm sure, everyone in 
Pet had full winter kit, at least field units anyway.


----------



## FJAG (19 Feb 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> In the ante integration Canadian Army the only troops that were issued winter kit and regularly exercised in cold weather were the three Defence of Canada Force infantry battalions. The rest of us had access to a pool of winter equipment to conduct winter indoctrination, although Western Canadian units seemed to do a bit better. And I guess that included the RCHA detachment deployed in the Roger's Pass to carry out avalanche control fire missions.
> 
> Most of the field force did not have winter exercises, but might do a bit of trips to the ranges and the like. Our focus was on Germany, and that country might have been wet and miserable in the winter, but snow was rare. After all, the generation that was running the army had spent the winter of 1944-1945 there in battledress and greatcoats.



During my years with 2 and 3 RCHA (1970 to 1984) we had a full complement of winter gear, from personal gear to tent group stores and annual winter exercises. In 2 RCHA in particular, every February was a 3 to 4 week winter exercise (usually without vehicles with all moves being by helicopter) 

https://plus.google.com/photos/100683112500627401489/album/6094371381228428449/6216387038017465026

That's me on the left.

 :cheers:


----------



## Old Sweat (19 Feb 2018)

What a difference ten years made. And I mean that sincerely.


----------



## FJAG (20 Feb 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> What a difference ten years made. And I mean that sincerely.



Actually, that reminds me of my first time at Shilo. I was a young, gunner when 7th Toronto was flown to Shilo in early December of 66 to fire the Challenge Cup competition. It was bloody cold out (well below freezing) with a skiff of snow on the ground. Our uniform was battle dress and our winter gear was a sheepskin jacket. No mukluks, no mitts, no ear muffs/hats, just ammo boots, black leather gloves and berets. The Germans were better equipped in Russia.

 :cheers:


----------



## OldSolduer (20 Feb 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> What a difference ten years made. And I mean that sincerely.



With the advent of Goretex etc it’s even better.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (20 Feb 2018)

Hamish Seggie said:
			
		

> With the advent of Goretex etc it’s even better.



Xacly Jim. Our 70-80's era stuff is today's battledress.


----------



## FJAG (20 Feb 2018)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Xacly Jim. Our 70-80's era stuff is today's battledress.



I do like today's Gortex etc (or at least the stuff they gave me before I retired in 09) but on the other hand I spent a lot of time in the snow with our 70s/80s kit. Worst job in the winter is in an OP where you hardly move around at all and just sit in a snowbank/slit trench for hours on end. My standard dress was mukluks, AFV winter crew suit overall pants, combat shirt, sweater, parka (the good one with the detachable hood) mitts, combat scarf, and toque. I would stay toasty warm for hours. When I had to walk with the grunts I usually had to vent a lot to keep from overheating. To the best of my knowledge, winters in Shilo and Pet are a heck of a lot colder than Moscow.

 :cheers:


----------



## Kirkhill (21 Feb 2018)

Broomhandles.....Too bad my Grandad wasn't still around.  The Look, Dook and Vanish could show them how to handle a broomhandle.  He and his mates saw off Hitler with them.



> Reliant on UK? Armed with BROOM HANDLES German army too DECREPIT for battle, SLAMS report
> 
> GERMANY’s armed forces are suffering from such severe shortages of weapons that it cannot meet its Nato commitments and its soldiers are forced to carry out drills with broom handles, it has been revealed.
> 
> ...



https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/921716/German-army-UK-Nato-EU-Europe-Angela-Merkel-Hans-Peter-Bartels-Donald-Trump-news-latest


----------



## Edward Campbell (21 Feb 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> What a difference ten years made. And I mean that sincerely.



Just to back up what OS has said ... until the mid 1960s our "combat" uniform was black coverall, boots and putties and 37 pattern web gear. Our Army fought WWII in battle dress but we had turned that into a neat, badge covered, well pressed garrison uniform. We had bush dress ~ very useful, actually, for summer wear, but also pressed and starched. In Petawawa circa 1962 "garrison dress" was bush trousers or, in cold weather battle dress trousers, shirt, sweater and a jump smock or parka shell (if you could scrounge one) or a greatcoat ~ what was allowed varied with CSMs. Almost everyone had the original "fisherman's vest" (a US Army field jacket with the sleeves cut off) and a second high neck sweater with pockets sewn on it ~ many NCO's wives in the MQs ran little home tailoring businesses making us a bit more comfortable. Most of our NCOs were Korea vets and they brought a "make do" perspective to day-to-day soldiering.

Despite their reputations for "chickenshit" both The RCR and the Canadian Guards were quite sane about garrison and field dress. Even on The Guards Junior NCO course we were told to bring our "normal" field kit, including our "second" set of web gear (which many of us had) and field boots for exercises. (The insteps of my (leather soled) garrison boots were highly polished every night on that course ... and my shoe polish tin and brass polish can were scraped (with a sewing needle) down to bare metal and they glistened! 

In the mid 1960s we began to get and then got nearly flooded with new, and in many cases quite good, kit ... what a difference a decade made!


----------



## pbi (21 Feb 2018)

Personally, I was very happy to see the change from our grab-bag collection of field clothing to the Clothe the Soldier line of kit. Our old cold weather stuff was designed for cold and dry such as in inland Arctic areas, not the cold and wet you encounter in far more of the world including Canada. As FJAG notes, lying in an OP or ambush could get very soggy and frozen.

As for the combat coat, the "boxing gloves" and the early rainsuits...the less said the better.

When I was working alongside the US folks in Afghanistan in 04/05, my impression was that our line of  field clothing was better than what they had, and as far as I could see far better than the other Coalition nations.


----------



## FJAG (21 Feb 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> Personally, I was very happy to see the change from our grab-bag collection of field clothing to the Clothe the Soldier line of kit. Our old cold weather stuff was designed for cold and dry such as in inland Arctic areas, not the cold and wet you encounter in far more of the world including Canada. As FJAG notes, lying in an OP or ambush could get very soggy and frozen.
> 
> As for the combat coat, the "boxing gloves" and the early rainsuits...the less said the better.
> 
> When I was working alongside the US folks in Afghanistan in 04/05, my impression was that our line of  field clothing was better than what they had, and as far as I could see far better than the other Coalition nations.



You left out heavyweight combat pants. When it came time to trade up to CADPAT, my old heavyweight combat pants were as pristine as the day they were issued to me never having been worn once.  ;D

 :cheers:


----------



## Old Sweat (22 Feb 2018)

In September 1964 I had just been appointed the Intelligence Officer of 1 RCHA. (It was not as much an intelligence officer as what we now call Operations office, but that's a distraction.) Sunray stuck his head in my office and said something like let's go to the QM Stores. 

There we were the first people to be issued combat, like one pair of boots, one heavy set of pants, two shirts and a jacket. I still wonder if Kurt Meyer wrote the specs for the ants when he was our guest in a Canadian slammer.


----------



## FJAG (22 Feb 2018)

Old Sweat said:
			
		

> In September 1964 I had just been appointed the Intelligence Officer of 1 RCHA. (It was not as much an intelligence officer as what we now call Operations office, but that's a distraction.) Sunray stuck his head in my office and said something like let's go to the QM Stores.
> 
> There we were the first people to be issued combat, like one pair of boots, one heavy set of pants, two shirts and a jacket. I still wonder if Kurt Meyer wrote the specs for the ants when he was our guest in a Canadian slammer.



"ants"? 

 ???


----------



## Oldgateboatdriver (22 Feb 2018)

Well, FJAG, you gotta put something in those pants. Why not ants?  ;D


----------



## pbi (27 Feb 2018)

" Specs for the ants..."

I think he means Meyer was designing eyeglasses for his parent's female siblings. You gotta do something to pass the time when you're a bored Nazi war criminal, right?


----------



## FJAG (27 Feb 2018)

pbi said:
			
		

> " Specs for the ants..."
> 
> I think he means Meyer was designing eyeglasses for his parent's female siblings. You gotta do something to pass the time when you're a bored Nazi war criminal, right?



 :facepalm:


----------

