# BSERE training coming up next month, any suggestions?



## Bo (11 Apr 2006)

Well, I'm finally getting out of the office and into the infamous bunny-killing land survival course!

So, do any of you have any suggestions on what I should bring? What to expect? I still can't beleive I have to kill a bunny  :-[.


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## Inch (11 Apr 2006)

You're going in May? Bring lots of socks and bug juice. I'm not sure when black fly season starts, but you don't want to be out in the woods with wet socks and no bug juice if the black flies are out in force.

Other than that, that's what kit lists are for, bring it all.


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## Journeyman (11 Apr 2006)

Bo said:
			
		

> I still can't beleive I have to kill a bunny  :-[.



*Are you mad?! * 
Those rabbits have got a vicious streak a mile wide! They're the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodents you ever set eyes on! Check out the documentary, _Monty Python and the Holy Grail_ !! 

It's you or the bunny, young L T .....and you aren't going to have any Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch to save your ass! So tough up.


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## Bo (11 Apr 2006)

DIE BUNNY DIE!!!!!!  :threat:


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## Bograt (15 Apr 2006)

Just finished the April serial of BSERE.

I would suggest bringing the CADPAT stuff on the joining instructions. It is going to be wet and ichy. Some guys did wear their flight suits but most did not.

Stick to the joining instructions and you will be fine. 

Baby wipes would be helpful. Gerber tool too.


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## aesop081 (15 Apr 2006)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Just finished the April serial of BSERE.
> 
> I would suggest bringing the CADPAT stuff on the joining instructions. It is going to be wet and ichy. Some guys did wear their flight suits but most did not.
> 
> ...



If you ever need your SERE skills.....it wont be bacause you crashed dressed in CADPAT.......

Train as you fight


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## Bograt (15 Apr 2006)

Well, that is one perspective of BSERE. With this course the school provides a choice of flight kit and CADPAT. Your stuff is going to get ripped, torn, and shredded. I haven't seen the joining instructions for ASERE- they maybe more particular for that course. 

Maybe I keep some CADPAT stuff in my B25 kit.  ;


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## aesop081 (15 Apr 2006)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Well, that is one perspective of BSERE. With this course the school provides a choice of flight kit and CADPAT. Your stuff is going to get ripped, torn, and shredded. I haven't seen the joining instructions for ASERE- they maybe more particular for that course.
> 
> Maybe I keep some CADPAT stuff in my B25 kit.  ;



And if i bail out of my airplane overland...i'm not reaching for my B25 as i jump.  In the summer do you fly with your B25 onboard ?  I'm guessing you dont.  Do i bring my B25 on flights ? No.

i may be looking at this all wrong but if you are not going to have it when you crash...why train with it ?


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## Bograt (15 Apr 2006)

Airforcematters said:
			
		

> And if i bail out of my airplane overland...i'm not reaching for my B25 as i jump.  In the summer do you fly with your B25 onboard ?  I'm guessing you dont.  Do i bring my B25 on flights ? No.
> 
> i may be looking at this all wrong but if you are not going to have it when you crash...why train with it ?



Have you done the BSERE course? This is a <i>basic</i> course designed to introduce aircrew from a variety of platforms with basic survival skills (ie land nav, fire, hunting/gathering, evasion, comms, shelter, signals). This is not a Pathfinder or Recce course. To extend your logic to its conclusion, why were we then permitted to have a bivvy bag and sleeping bags?  

The expertise of SARTec instructors has determined that it is okay to have the kit. The course is continually reviewed by the CF to ensure that it meets the NATO STANORD 7030 and provides aircrew with basic survival skills. 

I think many of us chose the CADPAT stuff for the following reasons:
1. It was dry. (No rain kit for Aircrew)
2. It was flexible. The weather at Springer Lake has been -30 to +30 in April.
3. It was expendable (we all wear our flight kit everday- why destroy it in the swamps of Manitoba)
4. It was replaceable- Have you tried to get a flight suit lately?
5. It was permitted.

If you have a problem with what CFSSAT has determined, may I humbly suggest that you write a memo and submit it through your chain. Let me know how it goes.


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## aesop081 (15 Apr 2006)

Bograt said:
			
		

> Have you done the BSERE course? This is a <i>basic</i> course designed to introduce aircrew from a variety of platforms with basic survival skills (ie land nav, fire, hunting/gathering, evasion, comms, shelter, signals). This is not a Pathfinder or Recce course. To extend your logic to its conclusion, why were we then permitted to have a bivvy bag and sleeping bags?
> 
> The expertise of SARTec instructors has determined that it is okay to have the kit. The course is continually reviewed by the CF to ensure that it meets the NATO STANORD 7030 and provides aircrew with basic survival skills.
> 
> ...



Bograt...no need to get your knickers in a knot, i was just making a point for discussion.  :threat:

yes i have tried to get a flight suit recently without problem

No, i have not yet done basic SERE, thank god but after 11 years of runing around the bush digging trenches and fighting bugs, i'm pretty sure i have a good grasp on training in the boonies or training in general for that matter.

You brought up the B25 kit and i showed you why IMHO you shouldnt ever count on it.  You want to turn this into a pissing contest, i have loads of time my freind. we both been down this road before and i though we had this sorted out, the tone of your response was unecessary.  to follow yourt logic i could ask you where your wings are and what qualifies you to tell me how aircrews should train. Like i said maybe i'm looking at it wrong, but as my boss chose to use against me this week, i'm not a new guy anymore and i base my opinion on more experience that a few days in manitoba.

regardless, point taken

Cheers


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## Bograt (15 Apr 2006)

LOL. Had I know it was you I would have been even more snarky. When was the name change.

I finished BSERE on Wednesday. Flew home on Thursday night, arrived in Newfoundland Friday morning, traveled to the ferry for a midnight crossing last night and drove 6 hours to Halifax with 2 kids under three, a yellow lab, and a wife who had to forge my signature for my taxes. No excuse for my tone, but I am sure you understand.

Not the first time I had to publically apologize to you. I owe you a couple of beers at the COHO.

Cheers,


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## aesop081 (15 Apr 2006)

Bograt said:
			
		

> I finished BSERE on Wednesday. Flew home on Thursday night, arrived in Newfoundland Friday morning, traveled to the ferry for a midnight crossing last night and drove 6 hours to Halifax with 2 kids under three, a yellow lab, and a wife who had to forge my signature for my taxes.



I'm going to be laughing all night now buddy....thanks, i needed that


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## Inch (16 Apr 2006)

Airforcematters said:
			
		

> And if i bail out of my airplane overland...i'm not reaching for my B25 as i jump.  In the summer do you fly with your B25 onboard ?  I'm guessing you dont.  Do i bring my B25 on flights ? No.
> 
> i may be looking at this all wrong but if you are not going to have it when you crash...why train with it ?



I guess that's all a matter of perspective isn't it?

CAD Ords state that it shall be carried for all overland flights where the overnight temp is forecast to be below 0 degrees. You're thinking like a fixed wing, uh, guy. See, in a helo, when something goes wrong, we land at the first suitable area that we can fit into. Sports field, road, clearing in the trees, etc, even a frozen lake if need be. We always have our B25 kit with us when the overnight temp is going to be low and we will always be able to use it since we don't bail out as you put it.

In my B25 kit I have my CADPAT Coat, Bunny Pants, Mukluks, Mitts and a Toque. So why wouldn't I train with that stuff? If it's warm enough that I don't need to carry B25 kit, I'm probably not going to need a parka or bunny pants so it doesn't matter if I've got them now does it?

Anyways, just a different perspective and since I am the pilot, I'm right, now make me a peanut butter sandwich!  ;D


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## beenthere (16 Apr 2006)

My understanding is that the objective of the course is to teach basic survival skills. It's not a simulation of a down in the bush event. Dress warm, dry and practical so you can learn the necessary skills in comfort.
When I attended the course it looked like the instructors main objective was to keep a bunch of city kids from mutilating themselves with knives and axes.


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## Bograt (16 Apr 2006)

beenthere said:
			
		

> When I attended the course it looked like the instructors main objective was to keep a bunch of city kids from mutilating themselves with knives and axes.



We don't use axes. They are too dangerous. Instead we have 6 inch retractable hand saw. At first I thought i was ridiculous, until the solo phase when there were times I said to myself " Uhhhh Boggy, this is pretty stupid what you are doing..." (ie walking around at night with your shoes untied, on a slippery rock face, while dragging a log to place on the fire. 

I guess people get kind of stupid and careless with no food after a while. The instructors said they took away the axes because there are too many fingers in the woods without owners.


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## aesop081 (16 Apr 2006)

Bograt said:
			
		

> The instructors said they *took away the axes * because there are too many fingers in the woods without owners.



You are joking right ?


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## Bograt (16 Apr 2006)

I never saw them (pun intended) but you can feel them staring at you while you sit by your fire at night.


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## beenthere (16 Apr 2006)

I seem to remember that axes were used to chop feet and legs while  knives were primarily for hand cuts and occasionally to gash thighs. 
The instructors could fairly predict the hour that the injuries would happen. No doubt from taking a look at the students and considering the phase of the course it wouldn't be rocket science. "This afternoon we'll be building bird traps--first knife work. Within the first 15 minutes Gibby will skewer himself." 8)


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## beenthere (24 Apr 2006)

Actually it's a fun course.They don't expect to turn anyone into Mr. Survival Expert. It's only about how to live with less than you would normally have for a few days and how to keep comfortable and safe. Comfort is important when you are removed from all of the man made things that we are so very dependant on.  You have to build your own little comfort zone so that you can keep warm and dry. If you're warm and dry you'll be in good spirits. Good spirits makes for happy campers. 
I did mine in April in Alberta and it was a great break from regular work. Lots of peace and quiet in the forest. Never killed anything but time and never got hungry. I cheated a bit by stashing 6 or 8 tea bags so I could have a couple of extra mug ups by the fire   Enjoy your time and relax.


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## Strike (24 Apr 2006)

The best two nights of sleep I ever had were suring BSERE.  No lie!

It's sort-of like camping for dummies.  Suggest you bring some cards for the evenings and maybe a book.  During the solo phase you can't bring any of that with you though.  As for the flight suit/CADPAT thing, if you have a two piece flight suit, wear that if you prefer.  I've learned never to go in the bush with a one piece -- or toilet paper!  Remember, those napkins in the IMPs are two ply and very big and can last a long time if you tear them right.  They used to be 3 ply.  Guess they went cheap.


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## Good2Golf (25 Apr 2006)

Now ASERE is the one for me...still haven't been able to be loaded on it, but that's 'cuz I was in the sandbox...will try to get on it soon.  ASERE is big on ERE, whereas BSERE was more like S+a little bit of "ere".

[OT alert] Journeyman, you forgot that those nasty bunnies have "big, sharp teeth"...and that "they'll do you up 'a treet!".....  ;D

Yup, Holy Grail was #2 on movie night list in the sandbox...right after Team America, and such famous lines as: "Promise me you'll never die!"  "I can't do that!"  "If you promise, I'll make love to you."  ".....I PROMISE TO NEVER DIE!"   ;D 

Cheers,
Duey


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## Strike (25 Apr 2006)

Hijack!

Duey -- Got to visit Doune Castle while in Scotland.  They have coconuts in the gift shop.

End of Hijack.


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## Garry (26 Apr 2006)

Gotta back up AESOP on this (as much as I hate agreeing with anything the Navy says or does) 

I really, really believe in train as you fight. Take loads of neat stuff, and you'll learn how to do a task with neat stuff. Take what you have with you every single time you go flying, and you'l know how to perform that same task with what you always have.

Kinda like learning land navigation with a GPS, then carying a compass in your vest.

I used to throw the bunny pants in the back as well, until an old guy asked me how I'd get at them if we crashed. I blew him of, then the next week did the Survival Systems course in Halifax (dunker). I now wear everything I need, and rely on nothing in the back. Granted, I still carried a little extra in the back just in case, but they were "nice to have's", not "must haves".

Pretty easy to blow it all off and have a pleasant time in the woods, and in all honesty y'all are probably 100% right- after all, when was the last time anyone ejected and waited more than 45 minutes for help?

Cheers- Garry


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## Garry (26 Apr 2006)

PS- Bo, I spent three weeks once eating rabbit...please listen to this...

BRING SALT.

After that course, I have ALWAYS had a small container of mixed salt and pepper with me....always. It sat in my vest beside the baggie with tobacco and papers and a BIC.....I NEVER, EVER unloaded that pocket....NEVER.!!!!

Sorry, I got started there....rabbit really sucks with no salt ")


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## Good2Golf (26 Apr 2006)

Strike said:
			
		

> Hijack!
> 
> Duey -- Got to visit Doune Castle while in Scotland.  They have coconuts in the gift shop.
> 
> End of Hijack.



[more hijacking]

Were the coconuts flown there by African or European swallow?  ;D

[end more hijacking]


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## Bograt (27 Apr 2006)

Garry said:
			
		

> Gotta back up AESOP on this (as much as I hate agreeing with anything the Navy says or does)
> 
> I really, really believe in train as you fight. Take loads of neat stuff, and you'll learn how to do a task with neat stuff. Take what you have with you every single time you go flying, and you'l know how to perform that same task with what you always have.



I know some of the much more experienced aircrew who were on course had some "suggestions" to the CFSSAT staff concerning what was permissible and what wasn't. The kit list described by the joining instructions is exclusive- that is to say, anything else was prohibited. The more experienced guys had some issues with that based on what they have in their B25 kits and on thier person. I guess CFSSAT is trying to set a uniform standard for all. Let me reitterate however, the course is now focused on an introduction to the "S" and to a lesser extent "ERE". I know they are more than open to suggestions in the course critique.

To be honest, I didn't bring my flying gear because I didn't want it to get soiled.  Being a 2Lt, there still is a bit of glamour with my PJs. 



> Pretty easy to blow it all off and have a pleasant time in the woods, and in all honesty y'all are probably 100% right- after all, when was the last time anyone ejected and waited more than 45 minutes for help?



The course officer, a WO SARTEC, jumped on Boxtop 22. I know of the T-33 crash in Nova Scotia in '92, I believe they found his body after a week. The griffon guys in Goose Bay a couple of years ago, who ditched in a frozen lake. Plus all the Aurora crew who seem to break their airplane in St. John's on a Thursday, and can't get home until Monday afternoon. 

[hijack on]
Regarding the airspeed velocity of an unlaiden swallow I have "researched" the following:

"_To begin with, I needed basic kinematic data on African and European swallow species. 

Although 47 of the 74 worldwide swallow species are found in Africa,1 only two species are named after the continent: the West African Swallow (Hirundo domicella) and the South African Swallow (Hirundo spilodera), also known as the South African Cave Swallow. 

Since the range of the South African Swallow extends only as far north as Zaire,2 I felt fairly confident that this was the non-migratory African species referred to in previous discussions of the comparative and cooperative weight-bearing capabilities of African and European swallows. 

Kinematic data for both African species was difficult to find, but the Barn or European Swallow (Hirundo rustica) has been studied intensively, and kinematic data for that species was readily available. 

A 54-year survey of 26,285 European Swallows captured and released by the Avian Demography Unit of the University of Capetown finds that the average adult European swallow has a wing length of 12.2 cm and a body mass of 20.3 grams. 

Because wing beat frequency and wing amplitude both scale with body mass,5 and flight kinematic data is available for at least 22 other bird species,6 it should be possible to estimate the frequency (f ) and amplitude (A) of the European Swallow by a comparison with similar species. With those two numbers, it will be possible to estimate airspeed (U). "_

For those interested, more information can be found here> http://www.style.org/unladenswallow/ 
[hijack off]


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## inferno (27 Apr 2006)

That study makes no mention of the possibility of two swallows working in tandem?


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## Good2Golf (28 Apr 2006)

inferno said:
			
		

> That study makes no mention of the possibility of two swallows working in tandem?



What, if instead of gripping it by the husk, they carried it with some sort of line tied between them?


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## Bograt (28 Apr 2006)

inferno said:
			
		

> That study makes no mention of the possibility of two swallows working in tandem?



Which arrangement of swallows- 2 European, or 2 African or one of each?


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## George Wallace (28 Apr 2006)

inferno said:
			
		

> That study makes no mention of the possibility of two swallows working in tandem?





			
				Bograt said:
			
		

> Which arrangement of swallows- 2 European, or 2 African or one of each?




Wouldn't there be a bit of a Language Barrier?


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## Bograt (28 Apr 2006)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Wouldn't there be a bit of a Language Barrier?


According to ICAO, (International Civil Aviation Organization)

Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground. 

For more information, please refer to Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5. Please, also refer to the FAQ "Guidance on the evaluation of language proficiency".


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## Dirt Digger (28 Apr 2006)

A few points:

The issue with the kit list has pretty much been covered.  CFSSAT offered two options because people were having some major issues trying to get either the CADPAT or the flightsuits from their local supply.  In some cases, people were being told they weren't entitled to the kit, which was nothing but headaches for the staff.  I don't recommend Gortex boots, unless they're hipwaders.  The water around Nopiming comes in depths from knee to nipple high.  The Big Problem on BSERE was mukluks...people would draw them, but they had no idea that they needed the felts and liner.  More than a few showed up with the outers and the sock, but missing the rest.

ASERE is different, and I fully support the train as you flight philosophy  ;D.  Another active thread is talking about flight suits and the whole CADPAT vs. blue issue.  All I can say is this:  The enemy force loves blue flight suits.

The axe situation:  Axes are great when you're working with a fully belly.  Once you're hungry, thirsty and your brain starts to short-circuit, axes are a bad idea.  Hence, the folding saw...much safer.  The staff babysits to a certain degree, but not to what I saw on the USAF course...you can't even break twigs on SV-80 without wearing a pair of gloves.

Finally, if you're caught with outside food, it's grounds for removal from the course.  That means leave the chips, gum, pop, candybars, licorice, spits, granola, dried fruit, chocolate coffee beans, canned stew and gallon containers of water at home.  (Yes, these are all things I've seen.)  You don't learn what it's like to be tired and hungry on a SURVIVAL course when you have a grocery bag of crap back in the paracabin.  The staff provides an amnesty box on day one.

Go there with an open mind and be ready to learn.  For most people, it's one of the most enjoyable courses they take.  (Second only to ASERE on the bus ride home...not before.)


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## Good2Golf (29 Apr 2006)

Dirt Digger, the guys aren't still getting the broomstick on resistance-phase of ASERE anymore, are they?  ;D

I'll be seeing about bringing a bunch of my guys along with me on the course after the APS settles down.  It is one of the CF courses that should be considered mandatory PD.

Cheers,
Duey


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## Strike (7 May 2006)

Duey,

Some of those who are a little longer in the tooth are goin on ASERE this fall.  You wouldn't happen to be joining them would you?  Oh, would I love to be there to see that.  As part of the OPFOR of course.  I'm not stoopid enought to sign up for it again.   ;D


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## Good2Golf (8 May 2006)

Strike, I'll try and get myself loaded on that course...didn't know some of the guys were already going.  I'll have a chat with A3 Trg here and try to get on it....thanks for the heads up!

Cheers
Duey


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## hiv (18 May 2006)

Hey gang,

I just finished BSERE yesterday so I thought I'd chip in.

On our course you did have to kill the bunny and skin it. For a city boy like myself it was a bit of a harrowing experience. Overall, I thought the course was really useful and I learned quite a bit from it. The one thing I'd recommend to bring with you is wet-knaps! They're invaluable and I had people brokering their limited rations with me to use my extras! I'd also recommend gore-tex socks for the navigation portion as the staff seems quite fond of having you go trudging through swamps. Maybe earplugs too if you're a light sleeper like me.

Anyway, it's a good course! I'm glad I had the opportunity to do it.

Cheers

Jason


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## bison33 (24 Oct 2006)

Bump.........UPDATE.........the solo phase is now 72 hours.


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## Ping Monkey (24 Oct 2006)

bison33 said:
			
		

> Bump.........UPDATE.........the solo phase is now 72 hours.



Only in the spring, summer & fall.  Winter session is still 48 (looong, cold) hours.


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## bily052 (2 Feb 2008)

WOW....  I just got back from Winterpeg and BSERE.  Was one of the most challenging courses of my career so far.  Roger Rabbit didn't even cry.  
Good time of year to do it despite the continued temperatures below -20.  Couple days on solo was -30 and then the windchill.  All in all a great course.  Next for me is after Easter when I drive out to Winnipeg for BAC 0801.

Heres my shelter.  Aint she a beauty???


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## aesop081 (2 Feb 2008)

AES Op - Jr said:
			
		

> WOW....  I just got back from Winterpeg and BSERE.  Was one of the most challenging courses of my career so far.



 :rofl:

BAC will change your mind


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## Globesmasher (4 Feb 2008)

AES Op - Jr said:
			
		

> WOW....  I just got back from Winterpeg and BSERE.  Was one of the most challenging courses of my career so far.



Now you need to attend ASERE for some more fun and games ....................


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## bily052 (6 Feb 2008)

Ok   Here is another Pic Aircrew will recognize....  If you went through BSERE without having a Fire Ban in place that is...


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## Sub_Guy (6 Feb 2008)

AES Op - Jr said:
			
		

> WOW....  I just got back from Winterpeg and BSERE.  Was one of the most challenging courses of my career so far.



BSERE was a blast, of course I did mine in the spring, no bugs, no cold, and no fires (booo!)

BEW will probably be a bit more challenging than BSERE


And as CDN Aviator posted....   BAC is a trooper, not to be taken lightly.    There is a reason why the pass rate is hovering around 50%, people take it lightly, some people show up unprepared.  Bottom line is that it is a challenging course, taking it easy one night, could mean you are packing the next.


Now where do I sign up for some ASERE action!


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## aesop081 (6 Feb 2008)

Dolphin_Hunter said:
			
		

> BEW will probably be a bit more challenging than BSERE



7 Pre-BAC AES Ops were on my BEW course and 6 of them failed the exam.


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## Sub_Guy (6 Feb 2008)

Well I failed it twice (not one of my finer moments), but it is done now and I have a check ride next week.    The one guy who aced his BEW didn't last a week here on BAC.


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## Strike (6 Feb 2008)

Nice scruff!  I am SOOOO saving that picture for your mug-out.  You did shave prior to going home right?  Or did you let the other half see your mountain-man imitation?  ;D


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