# Sig Sauer P226?



## Kelevra (3 Jan 2008)

I've heard that the MP will change their P225 for the p226. Does anyone know why and/or when? Is it because the p226 is more reliable?


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## MP 811 (4 Jan 2008)

First i've heard of this.


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## garb811 (4 Jan 2008)

First I've heard as well.  Your source is...?  

There are numerous threads on these boards about pistols in the CF which explain clearly why this is unlikely to happen.


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## Fishbone Jones (4 Jan 2008)

Kelevra said:
			
		

> I've heard that the MP will change their P225 for the p226. Does anyone know why and/or when? Is it because the p226 is more reliable?





			
				garb811 said:
			
		

> First I've heard as well.  Your source is...?
> 
> There are numerous threads on these boards about pistols in the CF which explain clearly why this is unlikely to happen.



Exactly.

Come back with some substantiation of the RUMOUR, maybe we'll reopen this, In the meantime, go read the other threads.


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## garb811 (22 Feb 2008)

Just an update on this, I learned last week tthat the Branch *has* started the process to attempt to aquire a new pistol.  No decisions have been made as to what model yet and it was a quick conversation so I don't know the exact reasons being used to justify it.

Kelevra, sorry for jumping on you for something that turned out to be partly right but you need to be careful about starting posts off with "I've heard..." unless you have a rock solid source.  There have been many rumours go through the Branch about replacing the Sig since almost the day we adopted it so I was skeptical the Branch was actually going to make a try for it, particularly in light of the compelling arguments against introducing yet another weapon model into inventory for what is essentially a very small number of users.

Who knows, maybe the rest of the CF will get onboard and everyone will get a new piece.  I just hope it's a change for the better.


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## medaid (22 Feb 2008)

garb may I ask why the MPs are against the Sig225s?


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## MP 811 (22 Feb 2008)

not so much against the sidearm per say.  I think it has to do with magazine capacity.


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## Colin Parkinson (22 Feb 2008)

The 225 is a shortened version of the 220 single stack (Are the MP's heel release or side button for the mag?) 

The Vancouver police is moving to the 226, although in .40cal. The 229 is shortened version of the 226, although most parts will not swap, the 229 being a little fatter in the grip (you can get slim grips for it) and the slide. Both the 226 & the 229 can take the SRT trigger which helps people with short fingers. If the Forces are approaching Sig right now, I suspect Sig will be trying to steer them towards the new 250, as any military buy, even if it is for domestic MP use would be a great marketing scoop, so they may offer the DND a sweet heart deal on them.


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## medaid (22 Feb 2008)

Ah! Okay, that makes sense now. Because it's not a bad sidearm over all


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## Colin Parkinson (22 Feb 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Ah! Okay, that makes sense now. Because it's not a bad sidearm over all



You are just hoping that the DND will let you shoot lots of cool stuff that you can't afford to buy yourself!!!  ;D


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## medaid (22 Feb 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> You are just hoping that the DND will let you shoot lots of cool stuff that you can't afford to buy yourself!!!  ;D




Muahahahaha! Already qual'd on the 225....but that doesn't really mean allot in these days. Static shooting...


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## garb811 (22 Feb 2008)

Like I said, it was a quick conversation and I didn't have time to get the detailed reasons.  I do know mag capacity has been a concern for some.  All in all, although I'm not a gun nut, I've been extremely happy with the Sig as a patrol weapon.  The only downside for me is the grip issue, but that's an easy fix.

Release is side button.

Edit:  Sober second thought deletion.


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## KevinB (16 Mar 2008)

P226R w/ SF X300 light.

While its not a custom high end 1911, it is a good tool.


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## cpinfo (18 Oct 2008)

I haven't heard much about the Branch switching to the 226; however if they did, it would be for ease of transition and because the 226 is already in the CF system.  The 225 and 226 are essentially the same system, on the a mechanical level (double/single action, same decock lever, takedown lever, and mag release.  The mbr would adjust to the new weapon system very easily.  The 226 is bigger and has the ability to hold more rounds incl. different types of magazines.


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## Ex-Dragoon (18 Oct 2008)

I know the 225 is in the system but who uses the 226?


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## cpinfo (18 Oct 2008)

Mbrs of CANSOFCOM and CANOSCOM


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## Ex-Dragoon (18 Oct 2008)

Thanks for the clarification


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## Colin Parkinson (19 Oct 2008)

Sig is now offering a .22cal slide and mag for the 226, this will be a useful training aid if they do go completely with the 226.


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## HItorMiss (19 Oct 2008)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Sig is now offering a .22cal slide and mag for the 226, this will be a useful training aid if they do go completely with the 226.



Colin I completely disagree. If you are going to train, train using only that which you will use for real life. a .22 will not have the same recoil or reaction after firing meaning that you would get used to the wrong reactions and this could/would be fatal if you ever had to use the weapon in real itme.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Oct 2008)

In a combat situation, mag capacity is a concern. However, I REALLY have trouble with the idea that LEOs need great, big mag capacity. If you can't get it done with, say 10 rounds in your pistol (being generous), I'd say it's time to pop the trunk and bring out the shoulder fired hardware, or call in the experts, (ERT, SWAT, whatever they call their psuedo elites). YES, I know, MPs deploy, but the same scenario holds. In most cases, your pistol is used to fight your way to the rifle you should have never stored out of reach anyway. Special occasions will require special measures, of course, and you don't always have access to other systems, but I have trouble with the idea of 13 or 15 rounds flying around without the perp ceasing activity.

I'm not slamming LEOs. They have budget constraints the same as everyone else. We'd all like unlimited range time to hone our skills. The standard answer is 'no money for ammo' or 'no overtime allowed for ranges', but the same bean counters say nothing about spending millions on the new flavour of the day sidearm without considering whether it's needed or not, just that it's cool and someone says we have to keep up with the Jones'. Ammo and markmanship time is what's needed, not new hardware. The Hi-Power served well for many, many years and held 13 rounds. How many times did MPs have to pull and use them, and use 13 rounds? (Perhaps one of our resident Mil Pol can site us a case or two and the end results?) I'll wager not as much as civvie LEOs. Yet I know many of civvie LEOs that have never taken the service gun from the holster, except to clean and range practice, their whole carreer. The upgrade from the Browning, and others, was justified in many cases for the ability for a first round double action pull. On the civvie side in most cases, all shots are double action only long, draggy, pulls to ensure the courts you really, really meant to take the shot. With the Sigs that's not an issue. So what's the big deal with these constant changing of toys?

Just my $00.02, and shooting 5-7,000 rds (pistol) a year and owning almost more iron than the CF doesn't make me an expert, nor do my deployments. Just sayin'.


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## KevinB (20 Oct 2008)

For someone who has shot pretty much the whole line of Sig series guns - and is certified by Sig to armorer them as well (took the class out of boredom). The P225 to me does not fit the hand nearly as well as the 226 or 228/229 guns.  Mag capacity is one issue - however they have no released the 225 in a "R" gun - so no rail mounted lights can be added.







The addition of a weapon mounted light is a huge combat force multiplier for any low light situtation - and a vast amount of law enforcement shootings and escalation of force incidents take place in dark or near dark times.


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## garb811 (20 Oct 2008)

recceguy said:
			
		

> In a combat situation, mag capacity is a concern. However, I REALLY have trouble with the idea that LEOs need great, big mag capacity. If you can't get it done with, say 10 rounds in your pistol (being generous), I'd say it's time to pop the trunk and bring out the shoulder fired hardware, or call in the experts, (ERT, SWAT, whatever they call their psuedo elites). YES, I know, MPs deploy, but the same scenario holds. In most cases, your pistol is used to fight your way to the rifle you should have never stored out of reach anyway. Special occasions will require special measures, of course, and you don't always have access to other systems, but I have trouble with the idea of 13 or 15 rounds flying around without the perp ceasing activity.
> 
> I'm not slamming LEOs. They have budget constraints the same as everyone else. We'd all like unlimited range time to hone our skills. The standard answer is 'no money for ammo' or 'no overtime allowed for ranges', but the same bean counters say nothing about spending millions on the new flavour of the day sidearm without considering whether it's needed or not, just that it's cool and someone says we have to keep up with the Jones'. Ammo and markmanship time is what's needed, not new hardware. The Hi-Power served well for many, many years and held 13 rounds. How many times did MPs have to pull and use them, and use 13 rounds? (Perhaps one of our resident Mil Pol can site us a case or two and the end results?) I'll wager not as much as civvie LEOs. Yet I know many of civvie LEOs that have never taken the service gun from the holster, except to clean and range practice, their whole carreer. The upgrade from the Browning, and others, was justified in many cases for the ability for a first round double action pull. On the civvie side in most cases, all shots are double action only long, draggy, pulls to ensure the courts you really, really meant to take the shot. With the Sigs that's not an issue. So what's the big deal with these constant changing of toys?
> 
> Just my $00.02, and shooting 5-7,000 rds (pistol) a year and owning almost more iron than the CF doesn't make me an expert, nor do my deployments. Just sayin'.


I know of 3 shootings by MP which involved the Browning.  In one, 2 MPs went through 2 mags each and, if I recall correctly, missed with all of them.  The other 2 shoots were probably less than a mag each but that was because the rounds were on target and effective.  Each of these shoots were a different tactical scenario so you can't draw conclusions from them as to how many rounds we should be carrying.  I am also aware of several other situations involving both the Browning and the Sig which could have ended with shots fired if things had gone slightly different.

This is similar to the debate which raged when people started realizing that the old "standard combat load" the CF had been using for generations was insufficient.  Once you're into the situation, what you have to use is what you have on your person, there is no running to the trunk and popping the lid.  This may be possible for follow-on pers but not for the LEO who finds out the hard way that they showed up to a gun fight.

Back to the questions about getting the P226.  Right now, it is the intent of the Branch to adopt whatever weapon is chosen to replace the Browning for the rest of the Forces, although I do know the Branch is also investigating various other options to hedge its bets in case the CF doesn't move on that replacement project.


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## NL_engineer (20 Oct 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> I know of 3 shootings by MP which involved the Browning.  In one, 2 MPs went through 2 mags each and, if I recall correctly, missed with all of them.



If I were to guess, I think that the problem may have been the weapon  :


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## Stoker (20 Oct 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> If I were to guess, I think that the problem may have been the weapon  :




Easy to blame it on the weapon, perhaps it was the person using said weapon.


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## garb811 (20 Oct 2008)

WTF are these comments about and where do you see anything being said about blaming the Browning for the misses?


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## HItorMiss (20 Oct 2008)

Garb I believe Stroker missed the Eye rolling emote and that NL_Engineer was actualy blaming the shooters, using the common excuse of the eqioment vice the user.


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## garb811 (20 Oct 2008)

I know what they were saying, just wondering why they thought it was appropriate in the context of the thread.  I know the shitstorm that would fly if someone went into the Infantry forum and started interjecting comments like that when the discussion was about the appropriate number of rounds required to be carried.  Put bluntly, the two MPs were exchanging fire with a hostile shooter and snide remarks about their marksmanship ability are out of line.


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## chris_log (20 Oct 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> I know of 3 shootings by MP which involved the Browning.  In one, 2 MPs went through 2 mags each and, if I recall correctly, missed with all of them.  The other 2 shoots were probably less than a mag each but that was because the rounds were on target and effective.  Each of these shoots were a different tactical scenario so you can't draw conclusions from them as to how many rounds we should be carrying.  I am also aware of several other situations involving both the Browning and the Sig which could have ended with shots fired if things had gone slightly different.
> 
> This is similar to the debate which raged when people started realizing that the old "standard combat load" the CF had been using for generations was insufficient.  Once you're into the situation, what you have to use is what you have on your person, there is no running to the trunk and popping the lid.  This may be possible for follow-on pers but not for the LEO who finds out the hard way that they showed up to a gun fight.
> 
> Back to the questions about getting the P226.  Right now, it is the intent of the Branch to adopt whatever weapon is chosen to replace the Browning for the rest of the Forces, although I do know the Branch is also investigating various other options to hedge its bets in case the CF doesn't move on that replacement project.



Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but re: your comments are these 'shoots' on the range or were these actual incidents? I ask out of pure curiosity, as I have not really heard any stories of MP's being in such a situation domestically. Just curious, I think those would be interesting stories to hear.


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## garb811 (20 Oct 2008)

Shootings while conducting domestic policing.


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## chris_log (20 Oct 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> Shootings while conducting domestic policing.



Is it possible to elaborate? I did a google search and didn't turn anything up, is there a link with something along the lines of the police reports civvie police forces put out?

Again, I've never really heard of any such incidents with MP's and now I'm really curious.


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## Stoker (20 Oct 2008)

Sorry I did miss the rolling eyes and retract that comment.  I use the P225 at work and I have the privilege to own a personal P225. I find it an excellent easy to use weapon and the smaller size benefits people with smaller hands which the P226 does not.  If the CF does go with a SIG P226 it will be a sound decision. I think however the argument of replacing the P225 because of reduced mag capacity is not a valid one. Generally how many mags do a MP usually carry? If its like us in the Navy we carry 3 mags for a total 24 rounds, is that enough to take care of a potentially hazardous situation?


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## KevinB (20 Oct 2008)

Well you could run into 25 people  ;D

I prefer the P228 or P239 for smaller guns -


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## NL_engineer (20 Oct 2008)

garb811 said:
			
		

> I know what they were saying, just wondering why they thought it was appropriate in the context of the thread.  I know the shitstorm that would fly if someone went into the Infantry forum and started interjecting comments like that when the discussion was about the appropriate number of rounds required to be carried.  Put bluntly, the two MPs were exchanging fire with a hostile shooter and snide remarks about their marksmanship ability are out of line.



I should nave added a bit more to my comment.  Having shot the good old browning, I know how accurate it is  :, I think the case of the two MP's shooting 20 plus rounds and not hitting the target is a case of equipment not training.


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## KevinB (21 Oct 2008)

Poor carpenter blames his tools...


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Oct 2008)

NL_engineer said:
			
		

> I should nave added a bit more to my comment.  Having shot the good old browning, I know how accurate it is  :, I think the case of the two MP's shooting 20 plus rounds and not hitting the target is a case of equipment not training





			
				Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Poor carpenter blames his tools...



Exactly I-6. Properly maintained, sighted in and adjusted, the Hi Power is plenty accurate and more than capable of maintaining it POA. After all, it wasn't a favourite throughout the world because it was a piece of crap.


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## medaid (21 Oct 2008)

Properly Maintaine is the key here. Improper maintenance is the reason why the majority of the HP sucks in the CF.


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## HItorMiss (21 Oct 2008)

Lets also be honest there are only two groups of people in the CF that get proper instruction and the trigger time to use it and use it well, and MP is not in that group. I don't blame the MP's for missing either through improper care (Likely the pistol was older then they were) nor through bad marksmanship, Hell they shot back and did their job that's comendable in my books.

As for the 226 it's a great weapon from what I have seen, it should be be the front runner in any replacement bid.


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## Fusaki (21 Oct 2008)

> Lets also be honest there are only two groups of people in the CF that get proper instruction and the trigger time to use it and use it well, and MP is not in that group.



You mean the JTF and the CFSAC Team?

I'll bet the HUMINT guys shoot pretty well too, not to mention those Close Protection dudes (but they're an MP unit so you couldn't have meant them).


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Oct 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> Properly Maintaine is the key here. Improper maintenance is the reason why the majority of the HP sucks in the CF.



Most CF HPs would do suprisingly well if you put a brand new mag in them.


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## KevinB (21 Oct 2008)

Trigger time and training are relevant things.

 Back in the day - a unti sent people to Mid-South - arguably one of the best schools for teaching pistol and rifle.  For some reasons (some inside and other outside) CF control - Mid-South was not used - and BlackWater came to be the place to go for training.  At that point the training level dimished some. 

More to follow


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## HItorMiss (21 Oct 2008)

You are funny Wonder Bread...

You got one group right anyway, Though I hadn't thought of the CP guys I assume though I haven't not shot with any that they are pretty good, But I don't know if they would use the 226 or the issue MP Sig...Food for thought anyway.

I don't count HUMINT in the groups of shooters with the same trigger time and training s the CANSOF hitters and their like.


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## KevinB (21 Oct 2008)

Personally IMHO the CF is getting pretty shitty return on investment from sending people to BW...


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## cpinfo (21 Oct 2008)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> Personally IMHO the CF is getting pretty shitty return on investment from sending people to BW...


 
Are you basing your personal opinion on any specific information?


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## HItorMiss (21 Oct 2008)

Oh I am sure I6 has first hand accounts of both places, so first hand I am sure he has plunk more rounds at both facilites then many have fired off in careers


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## KevinB (22 Oct 2008)

cpinfo said:
			
		

> Are you basing your personal opinion on any specific information?



Yes.

Piss poor shooting and skills coming out of BW recently into the CF.

Secondly - given my knowledge of the BW incdient at Massoud Square in Baghdad - I would say it is a PR disaster to stay with them, and the fact Mid-South gave us a better product.

Granted most won't understand the different in the skill levels directed.


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## garb811 (24 Oct 2008)

Stoker said:
			
		

> Generally how many mags do a MP usually carry? If its like us in the Navy we carry 3 mags for a total 24 rounds, is that enough to take care of a potentially hazardous situation?


We carry 3 mags with one up the spout for 25 total.  Is this enough?  Good question and one I certainly don't have the hard answer to.  If we did go to another weapon which had double stack vice single stack mags, I wouldn't complain though.  The single question of mag capacity isn't what is driving the look at a new weapon though, there are other issues at play such as grip size, moving to a common weapon etc.


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## MrPickles18 (13 Feb 2009)

The last force I was with before I joined the branch, we used the Glock 17.  It has a 17 round mag cap and is light.  I dunno, I prefered the GLock over these Sigs.  Just my personnel preference.

And whoever was saying that you shouldn't need more then 9 rounds.  It happens that you do and when it comes down to it.  I'd rather have bullets left over then to run out.


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## Colin Parkinson (13 Feb 2009)

Sig now makes 2 polymer pistols that reduces the weight in around the Glock range. The Glock's main drawback for large issue is the lack of interchangeable grip, the SF version helps but they need to deal with this issue soon.


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