# Standardizing duties regardless of physical ability + Failing courses for PT?



## Vyscaria (10 Jul 2012)

I've been reading a lot of posts on this forum and have heard things from troops. Though I agree that standardization is key for morale, organization, etc, it also seems to me illogical to give everyone the same duty? Sorry if it sounds like a stupid question, but I'm honestly trying to understand the dynamics behind this rule.

What I mean is, a 250 pound muscleman (or woman for that matter) can probably carry a 100 pound ruck, rifle, and body armour with no problem. In theory, the bony 16 year old kid should also do the same thing. After all, they did volunteer. And yet it seems illogical to me since obviously the young man/woman could get injured doing this. I'm somewhat reluctant to ask if the army actually cares about this; after all, it is a military institution... So far I'm just seeing a "an enemy bullet will not care if you are ____" attitude which is great in theory, but I wonder about it in practice...? 

When I was on my BMQ course, I struggled through most PT sessions and general duties. I fell out of the first tac march (no rucksacks at first) in about 45 seconds. That was how physically lacking I was, in all honesty. I did always give my all, though. Some instructors made bets on how soon I'd quit, but eventually they stopped after I finished the BFT ahead of some folks.    So I know everyone has to be up at the same standard, but what confused me was how the instructors kept saying that since I was younger, I should be able to run faster. Or that since my back is supposedly healthier, I should be able to ruck heavier. I don't know if they were trying to motivate me or something, but that kind of disturbed me with regards to how the army distributes their duties on courses and possibly on deployments. 

On my two weeks off between weekends, I trained 30 hours a week to complete the BFT and prove myself. But still I think if I had to carry a 100 pound ruck as I am, it could do some serious damage to my body. I've been working on PT on my own, but in all honesty I do not think I could do that (yet). Call it pre-SQ creeps or not, but I'm curious if the CF does in fact take these things into consideration when doling out duties and PT? I'm a lot fitter than I was, but still- carrying a ruck and two duffles up flight of stairs in one trip would still be borderline impossible. But if they tell me to do it, I do whatever it takes because _what if they fail me for not being able to do it?_ My parents are barely sleeping at this point, worrying that I'd get injured worse than what I've already sustained during BMQ. Since I'm 16 and in the army Reserves, they keep threatening withdrawing consent. 

I _really_ don't want to fail this upcoming course for PT of all things. I'm hearing things floating around that PRes personnel cannot actually be failed for PT, but I imagine the daily work is physically challenging as well. I've been told that some instructors there will give the heaviest weapons/kit/rucks to the shortest people in each section, which sounds sort of pointless and cruel. I don't know to what extent something like that could be true. But if it is true, I'll probably have a heck of a time dragging myself from one end of a section attack to another, or even going to the mess. I know this sounds ridiculous, I'm sorry, but I'm genuinely concerned. 

Please excuse me if I'm looking at this the wrong way. I still have a gargantuan amount of things to learn about army life even after BMQ. I'd be honoured to receive any advice/tips/thoughts from you all regarding this matter.  Thank you for your time!


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## dangles (10 Jul 2012)

Vyscaria said:
			
		

> Please excuse me if I'm looking at this the wrong way. I still have a gargantuan amount of things to learn about army life even after BMQ. I'd be honoured to receive any advice/tips/thoughts from you all regarding this matter.  Thank you for your time!



If you could not walk with simply a tac vest for 45 seconds then I am seriously worried about your health. Sorry to be a jerk, but you're a young guy...and yeah. Also, you have severely neglected PT before you joined the army, which was a terrible mistake. Aside from this, you have the right idea in trying to improve yourself during your weeks off.

 But you must remember that everyone is held to the same standard in the military - in theory and oftentimes in practice [albeit there is circumstances where this not the case]. But why do you want to be that guy who can't carry the C6 on a ruck march because you're not as fit as your other buddy? Not only are you going to screw over your buddies and turn them against you, you're screwing over yourself because you're neglecting PT.

 Stop trying to look for ways to avoid the problem by asking if someone else can do the heavy lifting, and instead try to improve yourself so you can be that guy who will not let their buddies down. If you think you are going to get seriously injured by doing your JOB, then maybe it isn't right for you. :2c:


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## JorgSlice (10 Jul 2012)

That "guy" is a in fact a female.


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## brihard (10 Jul 2012)

JorgSlice said:
			
		

> That "guy" is a in fact a female.



Irrelevant. Dangles' post remains completely correct.


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## 57Chevy (10 Jul 2012)

Vyscaria said:
			
		

> I fell out of the first tac march





			
				dangles said:
			
		

> try to improve yourself



She has and will in all likelyhood continue to do so.



			
				Vyscaria said:
			
		

> I finished the BFT ahead of some folks.



You should have nothing to worry about.


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## Towards_the_gap (10 Jul 2012)

The simple fact is, regardless of component or trade, you must be able to move yourself and your belongings from Point A to Point B in a certain time. This is not an unfair distribution of duties or whatever you are going on about, it is simply a reality, particularly if you deploy. On my last tour, the COP I was working out of only had foot access, so you had to carry every single piece of kit you wanted to have with you to and from the COP. We also did not have vehicles there, so every single patrol was on foot.

Keep giving 'er during training and on your personal time, and you will see improvements. 

And if you find you can't do it? Well, not everyone can do this job.


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## Jarnhamar (10 Jul 2012)

Vyscaria here's the thing.

A lot of people are out of shape slugs.  Some people want to improve themselves and be better, others use it to get out of doing their part. I know you've seen it, someone "twists an ankle" on a rock that no one else seen, yet at night they are out dancing or at the beach running in the sand and shit.

Sometimes the army may seem like it doesn't care because the soldiers come across as not giving a shit. I've seen instructors give a small tubby female reserve infantry soldier a heavy C6 machine gun on our final field exercise in basic training with the intention of making her fall out. Well she fell out after 500 meters but instead of getting kicked off course they let her graduate where she went back to my home unit and continued falling out of everything.

But as far as your question goes, if you're built like a 16 year old girl no one in their right mind should give you a 100 pound rucksack and tell you to run around with it. That's dumb and setting you up for failure. 
There is a basic minimum that you need to reach and while it may seem stressful once you get a decent level of fitness behind you you see that the standards of fitness in the CF is actually very low.  A lot of the stuff you hear or get told is just there to intimidate or scare you, to see if you quit or try and come up with excuses not to do it.

If I had to bring a rucksack and 2 duffle bags up a bunch of stairs I'd just make 2 trips.


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## Strike (10 Jul 2012)

Another thing to consider is how you approach a challenge mentally.  When you are challenged do you automatically think, "Crap this is impossible," or do you suck it up and motor on? (Notice I didn't say TRY to suck it up and motor on)

Mental fortitude can play a huge role in how successful you are.

Here's an example.  I participate in martial arts and regularly have to compete against women who are in their early twenties.  I'm in my late thirties.  They are in much better shape than me, faster and more skilled, but are always so winded and tired after each round.  The reason is all in how they approach each round.  They think, "Oh my God, I have to fight for 2 minutes straight," whereas I think, "It's only 2 minutes. I can suck it up for that long."

When you are given a task, do your best NOT to think about how hard it is.  Set a challenge up for yourself.  Maybe pick someone in the group that you're going to work to beat or be better than.  Think about how you will improve your time.

If you think you are going to fail every time you are faced with a challenge it is more likely to happen.  If you think positively and NEVER GIVE UP then you are more likely to succeed.

Edited for iPad'ism.


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## 57Chevy (10 Jul 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> I think, "It's only 2 minutes. I can suck it up for that long."



Untill you don't have to 'suck anything up' for no matter how long.




			
				Strike said:
			
		

> If you think positively and NEVER GIVE UP then you will succeed.



Changed that for you.


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## Vyscaria (10 Jul 2012)

dangles said:
			
		

> If you could not walk with simply a tac vest for 45 seconds then I am seriously worried about your health.
> 
> ...
> 
> Stop trying to look for ways to avoid the problem by asking if someone else can do the heavy lifting, and instead try to improve yourself so you can be that guy who will not let their buddies down. If you think you are going to get seriously injured by doing your JOB, then maybe it isn't right for you. :2c:



Thanks, dangles. And yes, I agree that I was in terrible shape when I got to BMQ. But now I can generally keep up on ruckmarches if the pace is manageable. Sometimes I have to run because I'm short. As for exercise, I think it was more a paradigm thing; I didn't really /get/ exercise until I joined the army! I'm a late bloomer.  Now I'm hooked, and just hope that it's not too late.

And yes, I would never want to seem like the person who avoids problems and makes others take my load. I want to be on the same par as my section buddies, and in part that's what's been driving me to improve. Thanks for the sage advice; the army isn't for everyone, but I'll be damned if I release out of fear. 



			
				Towards_the_gap said:
			
		

> The simple fact is, regardless of component or trade, you must be able to move yourself and your belongings from Point A to Point B in a certain time. This is not an unfair distribution of duties or whatever you are going on about, it is simply a reality, particularly if you deploy.


Thanks for your advice and personal experience, gap. A dose of reality three times a day at meals is the key to good health. C:



			
				ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> But as far as your question goes, if you're built like a 16 year old girl no one in their right mind should give you a 100 pound rucksack and tell you to run around with it. That's dumb and setting you up for failure.
> There is a basic minimum that you need to reach and while it may seem stressful once you get a decent level of fitness behind you you see that the standards of fitness in the CF is actually very low.  A lot of the stuff you hear or get told is just there to intimidate or scare you, to see if you quit or try and come up with excuses not to do it.


Thanks, Zelum. I guess I'm getting hyped up over nothing. I'm too naive since I actually don't know much about what is possible/not possible in the army, so I pretty much believed everything they told me. I guess the best attitude to look at the upcoming course is to see it as an opportunity to make massive improvements in PT. 



			
				Strike said:
			
		

> Another thing to consider is how you approach a challenge mentally.  When you are challenged do you automatically think, "Crap this is impossible," or do you suck it up and motor on? (Notice I didn't say TRY to suck it up and motor on)
> 
> Mental fortitude can play a huge role in how successful you are.



Thanks, Strike. And to be honest, most things in the army sound completely ridiculous and inhuman to me, so my first thought is naturally "crap this is impossible". But then I just go with it and do the best I can. 

And yes, attitude is probably extremely important in these situations. I always think too much and doubt myself, so I'll have to work on approaching things with a positive attitude as you say. 



			
				57Chevy said:
			
		

> Untill you don't have to 'suck anything up' for no matter how long.



 > The day will come, my friends. Fear my wrath when it does. 
Thanks for your input!


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## dangles (11 Jul 2012)

Vyscaria said:
			
		

> Thanks, dangles. And yes, I agree that I was in terrible shape when I got to BMQ. But now I can generally keep up on ruckmarches if the pace is manageable. Sometimes I have to run because I'm short. As for exercise, I think it was more a paradigm thing; I didn't really /get/ exercise until I joined the army! I'm a late bloomer.  Now I'm hooked, and just hope that it's not too late.



I am sorry for mistaking you for a guy, I just assumed you were one without doing any checks. Anyway, to kind of tack on to a bunch of other posts here, I find that oftentimes it is not the person who is most out of shape that gets 'harassed' or singled out, it is the person who tries the least. But it seems like you have your heart into it and you are improving, which will help with that.
 One tip I have for ruckmarches is to try and step longer and keep pace with the rest of the group [or at least the person in front of you], almost as if you were marching in unison. I am not the tallest person in the world either and I would always try to compensate by doing shorter quicker steps, but this would see me seesaw between getting too close and eventually too far behind the person in front. It will take some getting used to but it may help you. Anyway, good luck to you in the future.


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## Greymatters (11 Jul 2012)

Quote from: Strike on Yesterday at 09:04:14
If you think positively and NEVER GIVE UP then you will succeed at any goal that is reasonably possible.


I hate to be the realist here, but being overly-optimistic is just as bad as being pessimistic; this is how people like Tony Roberts make their money.  The key to success is identifying realistic goals and achieving them, then setting superior (stretch) goals and achieving those, then try to achieve what might seem impossible to most people.


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## armyvern (11 Jul 2012)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Quote from: Strike on Yesterday at 09:04:14
> If you think positively and NEVER GIVE UP then you will succeed at any goal that is reasonably possible.
> 
> 
> I hate to be the realist here, but being overly-optimistic is just as bad as being pessimistic; this is how people like Tony Roberts make their money.  The key to success is identifying realistic goals and achieving them, then setting superior (stretch) goals and achieving those, then try to achieve what might seem impossible to most people.



I'm inclined to think that Strike's use of the word "reasonable" equates your "realistic". You are, in a sense saying exactly what she did.


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## Greymatters (11 Jul 2012)

The underlined part was my addition, not part of the original post...


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## aesop081 (11 Jul 2012)

Vyscaria said:
			
		

> What I mean is, a 250 pound muscleman (or woman for that matter) can probably carry a 100 pound ruck, rifle, and body armour with no problem. In theory, the bony 16 year old kid should also do the same thing. After all, they did volunteer. And yet it seems illogical to me since obviously the young man/woman could get injured doing this.



Volunteering has f**kall to do with it.

Doing those things is a job requirement in many trades.  250 lbs or 16 and bony does not change what is required of an individual in that trade.



> but I wonder about it in practice...?



Is also true in practice.



> after I finished the BFT ahead of some folks.



Sorry but "i didn't finish last" is not exactly a badge of honour.



> But still I think if I had to carry a 100 pound ruck as I am, it could do some serious damage to my body.



I don't think 100 lbs on operations is unrealistic.




> but I'm curious if the CF does in fact take these things into consideration when doling out duties and PT?



You have to carry your own crap and your share of common kit, ammo and supplies. You being 16 and small doesn't mean you get a free pass.



> I'm sorry, but I'm genuinely concerned.



You signed up without asking too many questions, didn't you ?


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## Strike (11 Jul 2012)

Strike said:
			
		

> If you think positively and NEVER GIVE UP then you are more likely to succeed.





			
				Greymatters said:
			
		

> Quote from: Strike on Yesterday at 09:04:14
> If you think positively and NEVER GIVE UP then you will succeed at any goal that is reasonably possible.



If you're going to quote me do it properly.  I do NOT appreciate it when people put words in my mouth.

I NEVER said the OP would always succeed.  I said they were more likely to succeed.


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## xxmixkexx (12 Jul 2012)

It is fairly equal most of the time. You can not carry your weight simply work on it or just get out. IMO


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## Vyscaria (12 Jul 2012)

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

I think my original intentions were badly worded; I was a little ranty. I'm not looking for a 'free pass' to anything, and I apologize if I came off that way. I tried to make the distinction, but I suppose there really is no discussion about it. I'm sorry for subjecting you all to my insecurity. :C I always think too much about these things when I should just deal with issues as they come. 

Nothing to do but to soldier up and slay this course! Already shaved my head for good luck (and probably practicality). Field weeks, come at me bro. Leaving in two days to where happiness goes to die, so I won't be able to answer to any more of your thoughts. I thank all of you for your time and guidance! It is much appreciated. 



			
				dangles said:
			
		

> I am sorry for mistaking you for a guy, I just assumed you were one without doing any checks.



No problem, dangles. I never advertised it anyway, and am not offended. Thanks for all the tips about the ruckmarching as well- usually I'm told to take slower, longer strides. I rucked a while today on your tip and did indeed shave about some minutes off my time, though it was much more tiring! Felt good to know I can go faster, though. The endurance will get built up hopefully. 

 Thanks for your input. Though most of what you think/assumed about me is incorrect, I've got nothing to prove to you over the internet. I'm proud of what I've achieved. 



			
				Greymatters said:
			
		

> I hate to be the realist here, but being overly-optimistic is just as bad as being pessimistic (...) The key to success is identifying realistic goals and achieving them, then setting superior (stretch) goals and achieving those, then try to achieve what might seem impossible to most people.



Thanks, Greymatters. I agree- makes no sense to try to do 100 pushups presently, for example. If I can do 32 now, increase the number of pushups at a reasonable pace and one day I will probably be able to do 100! C: 



			
				xxmixkexx said:
			
		

> It is fairly equal most of the time. You can not carry your weight simply work on it or just get out. IMO



Thanks for the input. I'll take the first choice, thanks. C:


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## aesop081 (13 Jul 2012)

This lady:







is barely more that 5 feet tall and 24 years old. She won the Military Cross for actions in Afghanistan when she was 21.

You're worried about what again ?


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## Infanteer (13 Jul 2012)

http://www.thevanguard.ca/News/2012-06-23/article-3015752/Yarmouth-native-receives-military-honour/1

She was a rifle platoon commander in Afghanistan.


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## dangles (13 Jul 2012)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> http://www.thevanguard.ca/News/2012-06-23/article-3015752/Yarmouth-native-receives-military-honour/1
> 
> She was a rifle platoon commander in Afghanistan.



Ah I think it was actually Kate Nesbitt that CDN Aviator was referring to. http://www.webcitation.org/5lbgJIxS8 

 Actually just to edit, you were probably just giving another example of a woman's meritorious actions - my mistake!


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## aesop081 (13 Jul 2012)

dangles said:
			
		

> Ah I think it was actually Kate Nesbitt that CDN Aviator was referring to. http://www.webcitation.org/5lbgJIxS8



Indeed.

"For Christ's sake, Kate, stay down! Stay down! You're f***ing being shot at!"
"I know! I know i'm f***ing being shot at but i'm trying to save Listy's life here! Now bloody well hold on to this!"

She was a medic at the RM Commando training centre (volunteered for it) prior to deploying to Afghanistan. Instead of worrying about her physical size and how much she had to carry, she ran though Taliban fire twice to save the life of another soldier.

So, to answer one of the OP's early questions, yes, you are looking at it wrong.


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## Towards_the_gap (13 Jul 2012)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> http://www.thevanguard.ca/News/2012-06-23/article-3015752/Yarmouth-native-receives-military-honour/1
> 
> She was a rifle platoon commander in Afghanistan.



I worked for that officer ( I was going to say young lady but it wouldn't have helped prove my point) on that tour, and the only time I considered her gender, at all, was the odd time I would walk over to the hand-pumped well and find her and the medic shaving their legs, usually after a TIC. She carried the weight, did the job, and shouldered the burden of command of a pretty crappy COP in a pretty crappy neighbourhood during an extremely crappy summer.

OP - take that as your inspiration the next time you think your bag is too heavy and that it's all a bit unfair.


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