# So you want to earn a VC do you?



## Kirkhill (1 Jul 2004)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004301683,00.html

Follow this link for instructions.


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## from darkness lite (1 Jul 2004)

A true act of Valour in the face of the enemy.  I'd write him up for the VC if he was one of mine!!!!


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## bossi (2 Jul 2004)

Good for him!  I hope he pulls through.


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## Troopasaurus (2 Jul 2004)

Very impressive, hope he gets it.


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## ags281 (2 Jul 2004)

to him. I'd put his name in for sure. I'll be looking to see what results when April comes around.

I like the 2Lt's description of him:
"Beharry is the most dependable private I've ever had. He is loyal, hard-working and has a genuinely appalling sense of humour..." 
Very British   ;D


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## Michael Dorosh (2 Jul 2004)

Where do they get the "90% chance of being killed" stuff?  Sounds like bullshit to me.  The only standard is that the act has to be "in the face of the enemy", and witnesses are usually required.  Billy Bishop's VC was not supported by witnesses, however, so there are exceptions.  Another poster elsewhere pointed out that of the 11 last VCs awarded, 5 of them were to living recipients.

Also, the statement that the process of awarding them is "a mystery" is also nonsense.  If the process was a mystery, no one would ever get a medal.

Given that this has only been reported in the Sun, as well as some other "lesser" tabloid like papers in Britain, I'd have to say this probably isn't reliable reporting.

A fellow on another board I frequent pointed out that the deeds described could also be simple self preservation and may not be up to the standards expected of the VC.


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## Drummie (3 Jul 2004)

He sounds like a very brave soldier indeed. But isn't the VC only awarded to forces of Commonwealth countries?


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## Kirkhill (3 Jul 2004)

Yes.  Britain, Grenada and Canada are all members of the Commonwealth.


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## Drummie (3 Jul 2004)

Oh, my bad. I thought h was an American soldier...just glanced at the combats and thought American. oops :-[


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## Scott (5 Jul 2004)

Can't think of actions MORE deserving of the VC!! Let's all pray he recovers.

Question: Doesn't Canada have a surviving recipient of the VC? Thought he was a fella from BC.

Cheers!


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## Drummie (5 Jul 2004)

I think it's Smokey Smith? Don't quote me on that though....


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## spenco (5 Jul 2004)

Yeah your right.  And if I'm not mistaken he was (is?) a Seaforth.


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## Scott (6 Jul 2004)

I believe that he was a Seaforth and that he had a bit of a bad reputation.........I seem to recall a television interview with him from not that long ago where he was just as spry as he probably was when he won the VC. I remember him as being very straightforward


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## Scott (6 Jul 2004)

A little searching goes a long way, lads.

See http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=history/secondwar/citations/smith for the story on Pte. E. A. Smith of the Seaforth's

In my last post I suggested that he had a bad reputation and I wish to clarify this by saying that I remember the story of him saying that he could be rowdy at times. Oh but couldn't we all?

Cheers!


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## atticus (6 Jul 2004)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Where do they get the "90% chance of being killed" stuff?   Sounds like bullshit to me.   The only standard is that the act has to be "in the face of the enemy", and witnesses are usually required.



I'm trying to find the reference on the internet but I remember reading that eight or nine out of ten people who receive the VC get it  posthumously. Maybe thats where they get the 90% chance of being killed.


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## wongskc (6 Jul 2004)

Really? 9 out of 10 posthumous?  The statistic I heard was only 1 in 30 actually survive the deed for which they are awarded the VC.  This statistic, however is suspect since I got it off the net (don't remember where).  Can anyone confirm/refute this?  It's peaked my curiosity.


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## Scott (6 Jul 2004)

OK, some more quick research done. For MOST of your questions regarding the VC refer to www.victoriacross.net You can find a history of the VC as well as other facts and tidbits.

It is interesting to note that it is said on this site that in order to be considered for the VC one must perform their act in the face of the enemy and have it witnessed by at least three.

Also of note, it is said that ones chances of surviving the action which wins you the VC are one in ten.

Hopefully this puts to bed any rumours

Cheers!


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## Spr.Earl (6 Jul 2004)

Pte Beharry,good luck and a speedy recovery.


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## Guardian (7 Jul 2004)

Be interesting to see what happens...

Anyone know if the Yanks are considering any Medal of Honor citiations?


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## Bill Smy (7 Jul 2004)

It's interesting to note that on 9 November 1919 the Prince of Wales presided over a VC Dinner in the House of Lords. Attending were 321   VC winners, 28 of whom were Canadians. I believe this was the largest gathering of VCs in the history of the award.

Also of note, Canada will no longer award the British   VC. We have replaced with our own version which does not offend the language police. I suspect the first recipient will meet all the criteria of political correctness, rather than that of valour.


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## Michael Dorosh (7 Jul 2004)

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> It's interesting to note that on 9 November 1919 the Prince of Wales presided over a VC Dinner in the House of Lords. Attending were 321  VC winners, 28 of whom were Canadians. I believe this was the largest gathering of VCs in the history of the award.
> 
> Also of note, Canada will no longer award the British  VC. We have replaced with our own version which does not offend the language police. I suspect the first recipient will meet all the criteria of political correctness, rather than that of valour.



Canada has two official languages, Bill, get over it.  It is plain ignorant to put "For Valour" on the medal and then award it to a gallant Quebecker like Paul Triquet et al.  I applaud the decision to go to a Latin inscription.  There is such a thing as taking reverse-PC to appalling heights, also.  Don't forget that the First Nations also have their own languages.  Latin seems particularly appropriate given the cosmopolitan nature of modern day Canada, and her Armed Forces.

Incidentally, how would you feel if you were to receive a government honour and found the inscription, engraving, or certificate was completely in French?  Honestly.


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## Kirkhill (8 Jul 2004)

Aye Bill

Stop being so disputatious.

After all they could have changed the inscription to "Pour le Merite" comme les Allemands.

http://www.pourlemerite.org/

Cheers ;D


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## Scott (8 Jul 2004)

I have to agree with kirkhill and Mike Dorosh, those who would earn the new award for Valour that Canada comes up with would probably not care what language it is inscribed in, I know I'd just be glad to be around to get it. Pin all the medals you want on a casket, it makes no difference to the person in it.

Cheers


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## Bill Smy (8 Jul 2004)

Incidentally, how would you feel if you were to receive a government honour and found the inscription, engraving, or certificate was completely in French?  Honestly.

Michael:- I guess I would feel the same as I would if I received an honour and the inscription is completely in Latin. Your logic mystifies me.


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## Michael Dorosh (8 Jul 2004)

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> Incidentally, how would you feel if you were to receive a government honour and found the inscription, engraving, or certificate was completely in French?   Honestly.
> 
> Michael:- I guess I would feel the same as I would if I received an honour and the inscription is completely in Latin. Your logic mystifies me.



That doesn't surprise me.


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## bossi (9 Jul 2004)

I had a look today at the "chart" of Canadian decorations (trying to figure out where the GCS will go).
Didn't realise we now have a "Star of Military Valour", which has precedence over the ordinary Star of Valour (ditto for the Medal of Military Valour and the ordinary Medal of Bravery).

Thus, I applaud this overt retention of the word "valour" in our lexicon ...
(i.e. just in case there's anybody out there who doesn't already know, the Victoria Cross is inscribed "For Valour").

Also, an earlier post said Canada won't award the V.C. any more, however ... it is still recognised and included in our order of precedence:  CF Chart of Honours and Awards

Finally, somebody mentioned something about Canada's first Cross of Valour recipient being politically correct (and, I'm fairly certain that author might now wish he hadn't said that ... hint, hint ...)

Here's the citation and photo of one particular CV recipient - I don't give a rat's ass whether he was politically correct or not - he demonstrated incredible courage, and the respect of our entire nation:
Douglas Fader, C.V.

After surviving a helicopter crash at the Birch Mountain microwave tower site in Alberta on August 27, 1993, Mr. Fader risked his life to save the pilot who was trapped in the burning wreckage. Without concern for his own life, Mr. Fader, who had been thrown from the aircraft, returned through the intense fire to release the pilot's seat belt and drag the man out through the flames. Although he sustained severe burns to his face, head and other parts of his body, Mr. Fader managed to help the pilot, who was in shock, reach a building on the site. Mr. Fader called 911 and, despite his own life-threatening injuries, stayed on the line for almost an hour until a rescue team arrived at the remote site. As a result of his heroic efforts, Mr. Fader spent many months recovering in hospital.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Cross of Valour is awarded for acts of the most conspicuous courage in circumstances of extreme peril. Only 19 people have received this decoration.

Recipients of the Cross of Valour may use the letters C.V. after their name.
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As for Latin ... it makes more sense than trying to cram a multi-lingual inscription onto a small piece of metal (and, it's a poignant reminder of what happened to the Roman Empire when they inadequately funded their defence budget ... chuckle!)

"vexere fortes ante Agamemmona"
(a line from Horace's 'Odes' literally saying "brave men lived before Agamemmnon", the meaning of which is to remind us that "we don't have a monopoly on all that is good")


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## Michael Dorosh (9 Jul 2004)

The Governor General only very recently introduced the two new medals into the Canadian Honours System.

For the record, Bill was saying the first Canadian VC winner would, in his opinion, be chosen for political reasons, not the CV.  I would hope he is wrong but of course we won't know until it happens.  Let's hope it never comes to that.


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## portcullisguy (9 Jul 2004)

Bill Smy said:
			
		

> Incidentally, how would you feel if you were to receive a government honour and found the inscription, engraving, or certificate was completely in French?   Honestly.
> 
> Michael:- I guess I would feel the same as I would if I received an honour and the inscription is completely in Latin. Your logic mystifies me.



Latin is, of course, a "dead" language and it is universally used in many areas of Western culture, such as medicine and law (and as a by-product to law, politics).  It is not surprising that an honour should have a Latin inscription or motto.  I can name several Orders of the United Kingdom that also use Latin for their motto, such as the Order of the Thistle, and the Order of the Garter.  The Britain is a unilingual country (officially -- although Gaelic is also natively spoken).

Also, one must not forget that Canada's own motto, as it appears on our coat-of-arms, is also in Latin:  AD MARE USQUE A MAR.

The earlier point about one taking offence to being given a medal with a French inscription is equally silly as taking offence to receiving a medal with a Latin one.  French is the popular language used in diplomatic circles, and international relations.  Most diplomats, even from non-Francophone countries, speak French as a second language.

All of this is moot, however, when one considers what a VC is for.  Whether the medal says, "For Valour" or "Pro Valor" is irrelevant.  Receiving one is still the highest honour that a Commonwealth nation can pay to one of its armed servcies members, and is a recognition of the sacrifice and willingness to risk life and limb in the defence of one's nation and values.  It also comes with a handy stipend, although I don't think one could retire on it.

There are no VC's awarded for paper cuts in the BOR.


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