# New Brunswick Shale Gas Protests



## Scott (17 Oct 2013)

Not sure if this warrants its own thread or belongs in the First Nations protests thread...there are more than just Natives pissed about fracking and shale gas development so I am going to give it its own thread for now.

Things are getting serious in New Brunswick: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/shale-gas-protesters-clash-with-police-in-rexton-n-b-1.2100703

There are two videos - one with repeats of the same clip and another submitted by one of the protestors.

Normally I am loathe to read comments from a CBC article, but the first one I saw was, "You know what's not good for the environment. Police cars on fire." Good one.


----------



## GAP (17 Oct 2013)

Fracking works, but there also have been proven results where it either was not done correctly or some other reason, but it contaminated the water table. 

I don't know if there are established guidelines, but there needs to be better monitoring, if nothing else...

 :2c:


----------



## foresterab (17 Oct 2013)

GAP...there are guidelines and a long history of it out here in Alberta.  Where issues come in is how often, technique used, and how many wells are in the area.  Propane fracking is different from water fracking which can be unique again depending on water amounts used.

Either way sounds like NB has some big issues: nearby schools locked down, reports of 5 RCMP cars destroyed, molotov's, gunshots fired..

Here's hoping this quiets down with no injuries.


----------



## Lightguns (17 Oct 2013)

Local news is reporting 41 arrested, 1 shot and arrested, 8 firearm offences including at least 1 shot at police and 3 prohibited weapons. There was also fire bombs and other explosive device secured.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Oct 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Local news is reporting 41 arrested, 1 shot and arrested, 8 firearm offences including at least 1 shot at police and 3 prohibited weapons. There was also fire bombs and other explosive device secured.



I'm sure they will be punished to the furthest extent that the law allows  ;D


----------



## Lightguns (17 Oct 2013)

I wonder how many PAL holders are in the group?


----------



## Humphrey Bogart (17 Oct 2013)

I am travelling right now but being from NB and knowing all about some of the idiots involved in these shenanigans I will comment on this later tonight.  All I can say is this is starting to remind me of the Burnt Church fishing dispute all over again.  Different circumstances on the surface but the same underlying **** when you begin to scratch a little.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (17 Oct 2013)

I can see the same thing happening out west if they try to push the endbridge pipeline to quickly.


----------



## Scott (17 Oct 2013)

Seeing Facebook posts about the RCMP halting traffic on the Canso Causeway to keep Natives on Cape Breton. Might be slightly biased posts, but I did see a highway cam shot from earlier that showed traffic awfully backed up.


----------



## Jarnhamar (17 Oct 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> I wonder how many PAL holders are in the group?





> that Molotov cocktails have been thrown at police and at least five RCMP vehicles have been destroyed by fire.  Police are also investigating suspected explosive devices at the scene



Are firebombs considered restricted or prohibited?


(Sounds like a charge of using a WMD to me)


----------



## Delaney1986 (17 Oct 2013)

Apparently protestors have the Trans Canada shut down both ways in the Perth Andover area and the Mactaquac area....soooo not looking forward to work tonight...

Hope those don't turn violent too...


----------



## Haletown (17 Oct 2013)

If they keep the highways blocked, can the welfare cheques still get through?


----------



## Lightguns (17 Oct 2013)

They are not blocking their town. This natives from reserve 10 miles up the road and Acadians from Richibuto blocking an Anglo town of Rexton.  So welfare and EI and band funds are delivered on time.


----------



## pbi (17 Oct 2013)

Is it my imagination, or does the presence of the Warriors automatically mean violence?


----------



## Lightguns (17 Oct 2013)

No it is not. Remember how upset the general public got when we mentioned them and domestic terror in the same para. I got picture of a dozen them around a fire dressed in surplus US army woodland cam with black jump boots and boonie hats. They act more like gang bangers than warriors.


----------



## George Wallace (17 Oct 2013)

Seeing the photos of those six parked RCMP vehicles all in flames has me wondering why the Government does not do what they would do to any other Canadian citizen for such a crime.  Why not garnish the monies that the Government is giving those Bands to buy replacement vehicles?  Seriously, if they want to be destructive, make them pay.  

And they have the nerve to call upon the United Nations complaining about their treatment by the ROC.  Silly people.  If you spit on the hand that feeds you, do you expect to be treated with respect?


----------



## Scott (17 Oct 2013)

Wait for it. Nemo, expert on fracking, sneaky beaky stuff and general conspiracy theories, will be along soon to tell us that the cop cars spontaneously combusted or that agent provocateurs were responsible.


----------



## Robert0288 (17 Oct 2013)

> Why not garnish the monies that the Government is giving those Bands to buy replacement vehicles?  Seriously, if they want to be destructive, make them pay.


Because a chunk of the left of center leaning population of this country believes that such action is justified and violence only brought on by the arrival of the RCMP. :facepalm:


----------



## larry Strong (17 Oct 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Because a chunk of the left of center leaning population of this country believes that such action is justified and violence only brought on by the arrival of the RCMP. :facepalm:



 :goodpost:


----------



## George Wallace (17 Oct 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Because a chunk of the left of center leaning population of this country believes that such action is justified and violence only brought on by the arrival of the RCMP. :facepalm:



Of course they do.  They are rather hypocritical though.  They are all using transportation of some sort to get to these protests: car, bus, train or plane.  All relying on the resources that the Petrochemical Industry has given them: transportation, the synthetic clothes they wear, the containers they put their petrochemical fire bomb ingredients in, the lighters they use to light their Molotov cocktails, etc.  The irony of it is really amusing.

Of course these can not be religious folk either, as there is no justifiable reason here to be violent.  That leaves little other than Anarchists.  Which means, like the most of the other OCCUPY MOVEMENT types, they are professional protestors, bent on destroying our way of life, not bettering it.......Does that not justify the Police arriving and restoring ORDER? 

To use someone else's words:  I don't think many of them know what the frack they are talking about.


----------



## JorgSlice (17 Oct 2013)

Robert0288 said:
			
		

> Because a chunk of the left of center leaning population of this country believes that such action is justified and violence only brought on by the arrival of the RCMP. :facepalm:



I'm not Twitter mastermind but some of the stuff they're saying  is absolutely absurd. 

"Wouldn't have firebombed their cars if they didn't pepper spray/aim rifles at children"

Ahahaha right. You're not convincing anyone.


----------



## Robert0288 (17 Oct 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Of course these can not be religious folk either, as there is no justifiable reason here to be violent.  That leaves little other than Anarchists.  Which means, like the most of the other OCCUPY MOVEMENT types, they are professional protestors, bent on destroying our way of life, not bettering it.......Does that not justify the Police arriving and restoring ORDER?
> 
> To use someone else's words:  I don't think many of them know what the frack they are talking about.



I 100% agree.  Living in Ottawa, and having gone to one of the universities here.  I've had to deal with the professional protester a lot.  How can you blame the RCMP for causing violence when somehow firearms, explosives and Molotov somehow appeared in the middle of nowhere at a protest  illegal blockade on a highway?  Someone had to have brought them out, and it wasn't the RCMP.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (17 Oct 2013)

if the police/courts do not do enough to deal with this, it will encourage them to do more, if they go overboard, then that will encourage others to do similar. The politicians can help by dealing with legitimate issues and peeling off as much support from the protesters as possible.

Out west it's slowly dawning on people that linear infrastructure in remote areas is rather vulnerable.


----------



## OldSolduer (17 Oct 2013)

Observing.

The Warriors are a criminal organization that wraps themselves in "protecting our people" BS.


----------



## JesseWZ (17 Oct 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> Out west it's slowly dawning on people that linear infrastructure in remote areas is rather vulnerable.



I heartily agree with that statement.


----------



## JorgSlice (18 Oct 2013)

More from the Twitter machine:

"@davidakin: Lots to read in feed of APTN reporter @Osmich. Don't see reports of a tank yet."

"@RussDiabo: @davidakin @Osmich it was an armoured personnel carrier w/ a big *** gun mounted on it. There is a pica round."

...

"@davidakin: Help me out: Some Canadians in New Brunswick, upset about a judge's decision, thought the best response was to burn RCMP cars. Why?"

"@KSeesequasis: Come on @davidakin, you know better: some people also thought it was best to enforce said decision with sniper rifles. #Perspective"

And this piece of biased work: http://indigenousnationhood.blogspot.ca/2013/10/throne-speech-in-action-canada-is-at.html?m=1

The Elsipogtog protest started on Sept 30, the court injunction was issued on Oct 03. They've had 2 weeks to vacate and negotiate peacefully.

Footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjfMx-qf2wY&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## larry Strong (18 Oct 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> And this piece of biased work: http://indigenousnationhood.blogspot.ca/2013/10/throne-speech-in-action-canada-is-at.html?m=1



That drivel all comes together when you reach the bottom an see who the author is......



Larry


----------



## PuckChaser (18 Oct 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Footage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjfMx-qf2wY&feature=youtube_gdata_player



Those RCMP officers had the patience of saints. You can't huck an open bottle of fluid at someone and claim "its just water". How about just not throwing things at all? Sure saw a lot of sniper rifles and tanks in that footage. I also saw a nice clear shot of someone's face talking into the camera "Get the rocks". Inciting violence is a crime, I'm pretty sure.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Oct 2013)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Those RCMP officers had the patience of saints. You can't huck an open bottle of fluid at someone and claim "its just water". How about just not throwing things at all? Sure saw a lot of sniper rifles and tanks in that footage. I also saw a nice clear shot of someone's face talking into the camera "Get the rocks". Inciting violence is a crime, I'm pretty sure.



Totally agree with you.  

Whats all this about a "tank" or "apc with a big *** gun" ?


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Oct 2013)

Halifax Tar said:
			
		

> Totally agree with you.
> 
> Whats all this about a "tank" or "apc with a big *** gun" ?



Classic Palmater sensationalistic, media manipulation. Disregard.


----------



## Halifax Tar (18 Oct 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Classic Palmater sensationalistic, media manipulation. Disregard.



Ack


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Oct 2013)

At least 5 guys there wearing the "Warrior" symbol, wonder if local or they came in for the fun?


----------



## Jarnhamar (18 Oct 2013)

If they'll shoot at police and fire bomb cars just imagine what they would do to civilians who get in their way.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Oct 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> If they'll shoot at police and fire bomb cars just imagine what they would do to civilians who get in their way.



Beat them into a coma, with construction materials, like they did in Caledonia? :dunno:


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Oct 2013)

Many reserves have high unemployment and young population, always a problem. One of the fall outs of the changes to the Environmental Assessment Acts is that a lot of the smaller reviews which required some on the ground assessments have gone away and that will impact the available employment on the reserves out here in the northern half of the Province. Much of the employment that comes out of the actually construction or operation does not benefit the reserves as many have no qualifications to do the work. The pre-assessment work was well suited to what they could do. (Also reduces the work available to many smaller consulting firms in the small towns).


----------



## Lightguns (18 Oct 2013)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Classic Palmater sensationalistic, media manipulation. Disregard.



I saw one of those RCMP armoured trucks on a flat bed on the TCH early this morning.  Maybe that was the tank.  In any case, judging from the video so far it appears to have not been used.


----------



## Lightguns (18 Oct 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> At least 5 guys there wearing the "Warrior" symbol, wonder if local or they came in for the fun?



Dressed in US Army surplus?  Yup, saw that pic too.  Some in sneakers, some in Mark IIIs and few in work boots with their uniforms.  What pees me off is the guys wearing expensive REALTREE hunting outfits.  It is like showing up to an occupy protest in Armani!  Most of the uniformed warriors came from Cape Breton last week according to an interview with the maritime head chief.  He did not seem to want them there either.


----------



## Retired AF Guy (18 Oct 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> if the police/courts do not do enough to deal with this, it will encourage them to do more, if they go overboard, then that will encourage others to do similar. The politicians can help by dealing with legitimate issues and peeling off as much support from the protesters as possible.



Unfortunately, governments inaction (both federal and provincial) in regards to events in places like Caledonia, has only given the troublemakers the idea they can act with impunity.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (18 Oct 2013)

Yep and the lesson is not lost on groups like the "Warrior Society"


----------



## Lightguns (18 Oct 2013)

The weapons haul is 2 SKSs, 400 rounds for them, 1 scoped P14 and 100 rounds, 2 bear spray, 12 pipe bombs of various sizes, fire bombs were mentioned but not displayed. A cop friend says the SKS were unpinned mags.


----------



## JorgSlice (18 Oct 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> The weapons haul is 2 SKSs, 400 rounds for them, 1 scoped P14 and 100 rounds, 2 bear spray, 12 pipe bombs of various sizes, fire bombs were mentioned but not displayed. A cop friend says the SKS were unpinned mags.



Not sure what the exact exemptions are but the Canadian Firearms Act doesn't apply Status FN in full. Its that whole "way of life/need to survive"/"no hunting restrictions" stuff. It seems they have it easy when it comes to Firearms, I doubt its true, apparently they don't need a PAL either.


----------



## Fishbone Jones (18 Oct 2013)

Great. Now the SKS will be on the RCMP hit list as an assault\ terrorist weapon, to be outlawed along with the FN family, etc.


----------



## a_majoor (18 Oct 2013)

Back in the day, we had a talk about CCO by a British exchange officer who had done time during "the troubles". His solution to the display of lit molotov cocktails was to shoot the holder in the center of visible mass, and preferably _before_ the holder of said cocktail was able to throw.

I don't think many people would step forward with a firebomb if that was the police/security force response....


----------



## ballz (18 Oct 2013)

PrairieThunder said:
			
		

> Not sure what the exact exemptions are but the Canadian Firearms Act doesn't apply Status FN in full. Its that whole "way of life/need to survive"/"no hunting restrictions" stuff. It seems they have it easy when it comes to Firearms, I doubt its true, apparently they don't need a PAL either.



As a former card-carrying, status indian, I have never heard anything about not having the Canadians Firearms Act applied in full and I certainly had to go through the whole same sh*tty process of getting a PAL and PAL-restricted.


----------



## a_majoor (19 Oct 2013)

Since resources belong to the province, Ottawa should simply tell NB that the revenue is theirs, and since you now have the potential to ba a "have" province, the Feds will step off stage and let NB manage its wealth.

This will take a lot of pressure off Ottawa's books, and put everyone in NB on notice as to who is really standing in the way of their well being.


----------



## George Wallace (19 Oct 2013)

Thucydides said:
			
		

> Since resources belong to the province, Ottawa should simply tell NB that the revenue is theirs, and since you now have the potential to ba a "have" province, the Feds will step off stage and let NB manage its wealth.
> 
> This will take a lot of pressure off Ottawa's books, and put everyone in NB on notice as to who is really standing in the way of their well being.



What an evil scheme.

Another is to ask the Reserves why they would not want to collect any Royalties from resources recovered from their lands?


----------



## Haletown (19 Oct 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Observing.
> 
> The Warriors are a criminal organization that wraps themselves in "protecting our people" BS.



Excellent summary.


----------



## x_para76 (19 Oct 2013)

Such a frustrating situation the way the government and law enforcement treats the natives with kid gloves. I live in Hamilton which is just outside Caledonia  and saw first hand how the natives BS has affected that community. Furthermore after having worked in the provincial correctional system for a number of years I've been disgusted with the way the system baby's them and their special interests.


----------



## ModlrMike (19 Oct 2013)

Winning new friends at every turn:

Media vehicle seized by fracking protesters in Rexton


----------



## marinemech (19 Oct 2013)

in a couple more years New Brunswick will not Exist, it will be adsorbed by Quebec, Nova Scotia, PEI and possibly Maine (campobello island)


----------



## jeffb (19 Oct 2013)

That seems highly unlikely.


----------



## marinemech (19 Oct 2013)

be it unlikely they are bleeding too much red, debt is said to be north of 10 billion dollars, when a child is born in NB, they are automatically 15,000 in the hole.


----------



## Halifax Tar (19 Oct 2013)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/media-vehicle-seized-by-fracking-protesters-in-rexton-1.2126656

Peaceful eh ?


----------



## Lightguns (20 Oct 2013)

marinemech said:
			
		

> in a couple more years New Brunswick will not Exist, it will be adsorbed by Quebec, Nova Scotia, PEI and possibly Maine (campobello island)



Doubtful. The Feds will have rescue it. It may be academic if the warriors can play this out and get external support. It maybe impossible to do anything in NB. Using the local reserves is not an option because the Acadians are heavily involved. This is downplayed issue here that every Acadian political group continues to support this openly.  Even their passive resistance could disturb internal communication. The amazing bit was the NDP leader here who came out in favour of police action strongly and did not mince words on his opinion of the warriors. I may have to vote NDP. There is a lot to play out and winter is almost here. If SWN comes back next year it will ramp up higher.  I suspect there will be a winter of IED building and that IED attacks will start immediately on SWD employees, I say this because the pipe bombs appear well made. So there must be a bomb builder in the warriors, maybe even an ex army engineer type (ours or US).


----------



## pbi (20 Oct 2013)

IMHO the bigger issue here, and the one that has the potential to cause many more problems in the future, is the whole question of how we deal with FNs in a way that provides fair resolution to their legitimate claims, gives them a legitimate degree of involvement and benefit from resource projects on land ceded to them by the Crown, but gradually defuses the violent die-hard element represented by the Warriors.

"Sending in the cavalry", as satisfying and righteous as that might feel, probably isn't the answer. That part of our history is over, and anyway except for the NW Rebellions and Oka, we have no real history of military operations against FNs, unlike the US. That approach would only wash here if Warriors or other FN elements were to act in a far more egregious way, on a much bigger scale, than what we have seen so far. IIRC even the pugnacious Commissioner of the OPP, Julian Fantino, defied a court injunction in order to stay away from violent confrontation with the Warriors (no doubt with memories of Ipperwash still fresh in mind...).

Backing down in every case such that local non-FNs get terrorized as in Caledonia, or just throwing more money at FNs, probably aren't useful answers either. Neither is "just cutting them off" going to do much: that would be guaranteed to play into the hands of Warriors _et al_. Poverty is usually a nice warm pond for crime to breed in, FN or non-FN.

IMHO, the useful measures are:

-uphold the law in an intelligent but firm manner, and make it clear that this will be done. At the same time, make it clear that the full range of legal remedies is available to FNs, just as it would be to any non-FN community that had an issue with land developers, mining companies, power companies, etc. If the more reasonable amongst them can actually hold up a significant example of success in court, this will serve to distance the Warrior faction from the main body of FN people;

-deal as swiftly, fairly and transparently as a Canadian Government can in resolving any outstanding land claims. Festering issues don't usually help;

-do all that can be done to encourage the development of an educated class of FN leadership. This is actually happening, but maybe not fast enough. IMHO educated people, on average, are more prone to find compromise solutions and less vulnerable to being whipped up into a frenzy by violent demagogues. An FN "middle class" would also be a stabilizing influence, as it is in any society.; and

-work to get reserves functioning like municipalities or counties, with as much independence, responsibility and self-regulation as any of those non-FN bodies would have, including the right to sell land.

These won't provide a fix overnight: not too many important changes happen that fast, anyway. But, in the long run, I think they will get us where we want to be.


----------



## Edward Campbell (20 Oct 2013)

:goodpost:

I am in broad and general agreement with pbi.

As much as I am frustrated with the antics of the _Warriors_ and as much as I hope they don't resort to e.g. IEDs, I acknowledge that First nations have many, varied and, above all *legitimate* grievances for which full and fair redress is overdue.

Our Supreme Court has said, over and over again, that Canada ~ all of us _ordinary_ citizens and political leaders alike ~ has failed to uphold the "honour of the Crown" in _our_ dealings with First nations. Now I know that many people are going to jump up and say, "I haven't done anything to anybody. Why am I to blame?" I'm happy to agree that you haven't done anything wrong, but you and I have:

     1. Benefited, indirectly, to be sure, in most cases, from the unfair, often illegal treatment afforded to First nations peoples in the past; and

     2. Failed to demand positive measures to ameliorate the situations of too many First Nations.

In 1867 we, all, those who were alive then and all of those who are only small children now, accepted, by the very act of staying in Canada, the obligation, the duty, to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations. Too often, more often than not, we failed and we still fail.

I don't know what the right answers are. On a personal, philosophical level I tend to favour assimilation ~ making everyone in Canada equal in every way. That would amount to "buying out" _special status_ for many aboriginal Canadians and it would costs billions and billions, tens of billions of dollars. And it might be an unacceptable course of action. I am persuaded that however we settle First Nations' grievances it will costs us many tens of billions of dollars; none of us like new, higher taxes so we must, either, "grow the economy" or do without some other government programmes.


----------



## Kirkhill (20 Oct 2013)

A further point:

Not fixing our relations with the natives IS costing us billions and will continue to cost us billions.  The value of our current holdings is degraded by the uncertainty that exists.  Current projects are subject to the vagaries of the land claims process*.  Assets in the ground lie undeveloped.


I agree that new services will require additional taxes.  I don't agree that necessarily new taxes means an increased share of existing revenues.  It can, just as easily, mean the fair and equitable distribution of new revenues.   The re-apportioning of the "oil discount" is one example.  Alison and Christie are in the process of "kissing and making up" with Alison holding on to her existing revenues and the pair of them divvying up the new revenues.

The same thing applies to the natives.

The biggest problem with the natives though, is distributing the benefits:  through the chiefs or direct deposit to the individuals?

The second biggest problem is who owns what: not native or settler but which native.  The natives are just as happy to claim lands claimed by neighbours in the hope that they can trade those lands for benefit instead of trading their primary lands.

Who speaks for the natives and their lands?



*this year past it was easier to find construction trades in Edmonton than it has been for a few years due to slow downs up a Mac caused by the uncertainty over the pipelines and trains to distribute the oil


----------



## George Wallace (20 Oct 2013)

Could there be more to this than just Aboriginal claims?  Ezra Levant questions the funding of the Aboriginal Environmental movement by the Rockefeller Foundation.   [Edit to add:  There have been no land treaties with Aboriginal peoples in New Brunswick's history since before its creation in 1784.  The Treaty of Boston (1725) was the first of a series of treaties of peace and friendship; that is all.)

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/2755140661001


John Bennett's (executive director of the Sierra Club of Canada) take on the protests:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/civil-disobedience-last-resort-for-shale-gas-protesters-1.1357460


----------



## Lightguns (20 Oct 2013)

While there are claims that need to be worked out. It is unhelpful that every native leader has affirmed support for the blockade and those arrested. Only Local regional chief, Roger Ausgustine made veiled reference to radical elements being there. Some of these people are highly educated and beneficiaries of the current. Pam P, Derek Nepinak are both holders of doctorates yet most radical and very supportive of these current miliants.  The native leadership working much like Sinn Fein, ignoring the use violence while using that violence as leverage. I do not think they will be able to control it once they choose to open that bottle.


----------



## George Wallace (20 Oct 2013)

Seen the news this evening showing News Reporters from several agencies being ordered by natives to leave, leaving their equipment and vehicles behind.  Grand Theft Auto?  Theft over $5000?  Not the way to gain support from those not directly involved in the protest.


----------



## x_para76 (20 Oct 2013)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> :goodpost:
> 
> I am in broad and general agreement with pbi.
> 
> ...



I agree with E.R Campbell in the sense that we need to put thing right with the natives and make the proper financial reparations to settle. However, once the numbers are agreed upon and the payments made the natives then should lose their special status and live on an equal footing with the rest of us.  I realize that we're talking about significant dollar amounts to make this happen but for the most part much of it will end up back in the economy and in the governments coffers.


----------



## George Wallace (20 Oct 2013)

X_para76 said:
			
		

> I agree with E.R Campbell in the sense that we need to put thing right with the natives and make the proper financial reparations to settle. However, once the numbers are agreed upon and the payments made the natives then should lose their special status and live on an equal footing with the rest of us.  I realize that we're talking about significant dollar amounts to make this happen but for the most part much of it will end up back in the economy and in the governments coffers.



For the most part I will agree, but throwing money at them for any reason has shown itself to be a colossal waste for the majority of cases.  

Have we not already "RENTED TO OWN" with trillions or more having been paid out to Bands across the land?

Don't get me going on the other forms of Welfare we have allowed to cripple this nation.


----------



## x_para76 (20 Oct 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> For the most part I will agree, but throwing money at them for any reason has shown itself to be a colossal waste for the majority of cases.
> 
> Have we not already "RENTED TO OWN" with trillions or more having been paid out to Bands across the land?
> 
> Don't get me going on the other forms of Welfare we have allowed to cripple this nation.



I'm certainly not suggesting that the government just throw random sums of money at the natives. I'm suggesting that they settle the land claims and take away the entitlements and give them one final negotiated sum of money. The natives can then choose how to spend it and what to do with it but they will live like the rest of Canada and there will be no more debate on the subject. I believe that either the Australians or the New Zealanders did something similar with their aboriginal people's. There were some cases where the money awarded was pissed up against the wall on booze, and cars, and other BS but it was the end of the native land claims debate.


----------



## George Wallace (20 Oct 2013)

As already mentioned; there is NO Land Treaty for the First Nations in New Brunswick.  Only a Treaty of Peace and Friendship.  So, in essence, to pay them off for lands that they historically do not have a claim to is throwing random money at the natives.


----------



## PuckChaser (20 Oct 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So, in essence, to pay them off for lands that they historically do not have a claim to is throwing random money at the natives.



But it seems like thats what they want most of the time....


----------



## x_para76 (20 Oct 2013)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> As already mentioned; there is NO Land Treaty for the First Nations in New Brunswick.  Only a Treaty of Peace and Friendship.  So, in essence, to pay them off for lands that they historically do not have a claim to is throwing random money at the natives.



I apologize for my lack specifics. I was referring to the government settling all First Nations land claims across Canada.  I know the situation is incredibly convoluted and that there would be many illegitimate claims to sift through but in the long run it's gotta be better than the current climate of entitlement and endless financial burden.


----------



## pbi (21 Oct 2013)

It's true that there is no "one size fits all solution": as posters have indicated, the specific treaties (or lack thereof) vary across the country. IIRC BC has some unique situations unlike the rest of Canada.

IMHO the fact that we have paid out billions to FNs over the years doesn't give us any special "rights" if those payments were in fact obligations undertaken when the existing treaties were signed. 

What it DOES point out, again IMHO, is that those billions may not have been spent very well. Governments of the day may have been only too happy to treat the payments as "fire and forget" money, as a way of keeping FNs quiet while assuaging any residual guilt about how"we" (the big historical "we"...) treated them in the past.

Not very sound bases for social policy, if you ask me.

While I don't exactly agree that "assimilation" is the goal, because I don't see why FNs shouldn't preserve their cultures and heritage, I think that I understand what is meant. To me, the best goal that we can establish for FNs is to give them a level playing field and encourage their leadership to actually lead.

When I say "level playing field" I am very aware that for many bands this would actually mean a step up to a level field, if "level" means a similar range of opportunities and responsibilities as "other Canadians". It doesn't mean a scorched earth policy on payments to FNs: I don't see an approach like that doing anything useful.

Maybe we should look across Canada at those peaceful, stable (and in some cases economically viable) FN communities, and ask "how does that work?"


----------



## GAP (21 Oct 2013)

> Maybe we should look across Canada at those peaceful, stable (and in some cases economically viable) FN communities, and ask "how does that work?"



Well, in the first place, it takes a chief and council who believe in working for the band, not just their own pocket money.


----------



## pbi (21 Oct 2013)

GAP said:
			
		

> Well, in the first place, it takes a chief and council who believe in working for the band, not just their own pocket money.



Agree fully. IMHO FNs have been served the worst by some of their own "leaders". Attempts to correct corruption and incompetence, or to establish transparency usually seem to provoke cries of government oppression.

This reeks of the lack of trust on both sides: that IMHO is the first thing that has to be put right or nothing much else will happen. That will take both sides doing some swallowing and tongue-biting, but I don't see any way around. Each party has the capacity to make life hellish for the other: we need to get this away from confrontation.


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Oct 2013)

GAP said:
			
		

> Well, in the first place, it takes a chief and council who believe in working for the band, not just their own pocket money.



Bazinga! The fact is that it appears the majority of chiefs and councils work only for themselves and family - it's nepotism knows no bounds.

Mind you us racist white men don't understand......right? >


----------



## Colin Parkinson (21 Oct 2013)

130% of BC is claimed, internal FN politics will make your head spin. Was at a meeting with proponent, EA office and FN chief . The proponent had been consulting with the Tribal council for 2 years. A splinter group walked in, said the consultations were not valid and to get off their "land" and the proponent must consult with them and set up a "capacity fund" so they can sit at the table.


----------



## dapaterson (21 Oct 2013)

A quick perusal of the news will show that Quebec politics, at the very least, make FN claims / financial mismanagement seem minor in their misconduct by comparison.


----------



## OldSolduer (21 Oct 2013)

X_para76 said:
			
		

> Such a frustrating situation the way the government and law enforcement treats the natives with kid gloves. I live in Hamilton which is just outside Caledonia  and saw first hand how the natives BS has affected that community. Furthermore after having worked in the provincial correctional system for a number of years I've been disgusted with the way the system baby's them and their special interests.



Similar situation in my system. While not quite coddling them, they sure don't go out of their way to attempt to break up the gangs.


----------



## Brad Sallows (21 Oct 2013)

>to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations.

No.  One category of citizenship.  No special privileges or responsibilities.  Dead politicians can not bind subsequent generations into paying tribute.  Accident of birth does not grant one person an entitlement and another person an obligation.  This sh!t has to end, now.


----------



## x_para76 (22 Oct 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations.
> 
> No.  One category of citizenship.  No special privileges or responsibilities.  Dead politicians can not bind subsequent generations into paying tribute.  Accident of birth does not grant one person an entitlement and another person an obligation.  This sh!t has to end, now.



Well said!


----------



## Lightguns (22 Oct 2013)

Mayor Sock on a CBC interview last night and "hinted" that the weapons found were RCMP plants.  When asked about the weapons, "I do not want to talk about that, we are angry at RCMP dishonesty and they have destroyed their relationship with our nation".  Follow up questions about the RCMP planting weapons were met with affirmative grunts.  He is a good politician, not committing but leaving the message he wants well seeded.  Of course, he has the Manitoba leader of the Onion Lake Confederates right there to instruct him.

There is local talk here that the local natives will withdrawal support for the West-East pipeline (if there was ever any true support).  The 3 largest Acadian societies have now all come out in support of the natives so the whole issue is becoming English vs French AND Natives, just like everythign else in NB.


----------



## GR66 (22 Oct 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations.
> 
> No.  One category of citizenship.  No special privileges or responsibilities.  Dead politicians can not bind subsequent generations into paying tribute.  Accident of birth does not grant one person an entitlement and another person an obligation.  This sh!t has to end, now.



Can't they?  Isn't our whole society built on the foundation of the laws, customs, social and political structures laid down by "dead politicians"?  Don't get me wrong, I think that long term integration would be best for both First Nations peoples and the rest of Canada.  However, I think it would be morally wrong to just throw out the current system and force immediate integration.  We have made commitments in the past to the First Nations...both legal and implied.  We definitely need to completely change the relationship to a form that makes sense for the 21st Century but in my opinion it would be wrong to do so unilaterally and without open and honest dialogue between both sides INCLUDING fair and reasonable consideration of what has been promised in the past.

There are definitely people that will be strongly, even violently opposed to any such changes, but just because the path isn't clear and the problem appears impossible to resolve doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to do the right things.


----------



## OldSolduer (22 Oct 2013)

Maybe the best thing to do is stop exploration altogether in NB. Pull up stakes and leave. 

To any employees that lose employment, severance pay, and a statement to the effect that "your fellow citizens have spoken and they do not want New Brunswick to be prosperous, but remain a have not province".


----------



## Edward Campbell (22 Oct 2013)

Brad Sallows said:
			
		

> >to uphold the promises King George made to Canada's First Nations.
> 
> No.  One category of citizenship.  No special privileges or responsibilities.  Dead politicians can not bind subsequent generations into paying tribute.  Accident of birth does not grant one person an entitlement and another person an obligation.  This sh!t has to end, now.




Like it or not, those promises, and a whole boat load of other customs, traditions, mechanisms, conventions and so on are part and parcel of our "sovereign patrimony" as a country and the _Supremes_ have told us that we are biond by modern interpretations of those promises, not the exact letter of the law treaty.


----------



## Lightguns (22 Oct 2013)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> Maybe the best thing to do is stop exploration altogether in NB. Pull up stakes and leave.
> 
> To any employees that lose employment, severance pay, and a statement to the effect that "your fellow citizens have spoken and they do not want New Brunswick to be prosperous, but remain a have not province".



Better yet if a have not province refuses to develop it's own resources, reduce it's transfer payments accordingly.  The whole "paid to sit around and complain" thing is getting old, regardless of race.  The fact is, and despite the weapons find, 44% of NB'ers think the natives are doing the right thing.  The whole moral compass is wacked down here.  Non-natives are running around saying the police should not have been armed and that clean water is justified in a few dead gas workers.  This place is becoming a real ____ hole.


----------



## Lightguns (22 Oct 2013)

The other funny thing about all this is the complete lack of interest the weapons has drawn from the gun control crowd.  Reading their web sites and forums, there is alot of talk about magazine capacity and arms treaties but no mention of natives protesting with guns.


Edited for grammar


----------



## Colin Parkinson (22 Oct 2013)

Lightguns said:
			
		

> Better yet if a have not province refuses to develop it's own resources, reduce it's transfer payments accordingly.  The whole "paid to sit around and complain" thing is getting old, regardless of race.  The fact is, and despite the weapons find, 44% of NB'ers think the natives are doing the right thing.  The whole moral compass is wacked down here.  Non-natives are running around saying the police should not have been armed and that clean water is justified in a few dead gas workers.  This place is becoming a real ____ hole.



The argument they use is that everyone needs clean water, so you are talking about a base existence need, something everyone with kids will take at a gut level. A very powerful argument when used correctly. Endbridge and CN (and the rail industry as a whole) have not exactly won themselves in glory lately. Most people can not make a connection to the gas/oil industry directly and have enjoyed the benefits without having it in their backyard till now, so they can't see why they need to accommodate the industry now.


----------



## Lightguns (25 Oct 2013)

Friends in Rexton reporting a fire bomb attack on the RCMP det. Ambulances, fire trucks and cops tearing up road and a convoy of out of town cop cars on the hi way. Waiting to hear something on local news.


----------



## George Wallace (25 Oct 2013)

They firebombed it a week or so ago as well.


----------



## larry Strong (25 Oct 2013)

Funny thing......the band owns the building.......




Larry


----------



## Colin Parkinson (28 Oct 2013)

Larry Strong said:
			
		

> Funny thing......the band owns the building.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But did they pay for it?


----------



## larry Strong (28 Oct 2013)

Colin P said:
			
		

> But did they pay for it?



Of course not.....we did!




Larry


----------

