# DEC and CIA



## Amos (4 May 2018)

Applied for CIA few weeks ago. 
Diminished Earning Capacity - DEC.  
Does DEC means CIA will be approved? any one deemed to haveDEC, without being eligible for CIA


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## winnipegoo7 (5 May 2018)

Does that mean you're going to be a spy?  ;D

https://www.cia.gov


But seriously, what's ClA??


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## Teager (5 May 2018)

CIA is Career impact allowance. DEC is diminished earnings capacity.

If you have DEC you will more than likely get CIA. Usually you need to be granted CIA first to get DEC. 

If you don't have either you will have to wait for CIA to be granted then apply for DEC.

For better clarification here is the policy for the CIA and supplement. http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/about-us/policy/document/2126

Here is the DEC policy. http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/about-us/policy/document/1971


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## Amos (8 May 2018)

Teager said:
			
		

> CIA is Career impact allowance. DEC is diminished earnings capacity.
> 
> If you have DEC you will more than likely get CIA. Usually you need to be granted CIA first to get DEC.
> 
> ...


i 
interesting.  CM working on DEC now. I just got a call from CVVRS saying I am not able to be gainfully employed. The DEC process almost completed.  My CM just applied for me for the CIA not long ago. looks like DEC may be done before CIA. I don't see anywhere that the CIA must be in place before DEC.


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## Teager (9 May 2018)

GreenArmychick said:
			
		

> i
> interesting.  CM working on DEC now. I just got a call from CVVRS saying I am not able to be gainfully employed. The DEC process almost completed.  My CM just applied for me for the CIA not long ago. looks like DEC may be done before CIA. I don't see anywhere that the CIA must be in place before DEC.



A lot including myself had to get CIA before CM would do DEC. DEC can happen fast once paperwork is done only took a week for me once all submitted. You then have to apply for the supplement which is on the CIA form. FYI it's about a 6 month wait to actually receive your money if approved for CIA/supp from what I have been reading but it is back dated to date of application.


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## Amos (9 May 2018)

Teager said:
			
		

> A lot including myself had to get CIA before CM would do DEC. DEC can happen fast once paperwork is done only took a week for me once all submitted. You then have to apply for the supplement which is on the CIA form. FYI it's about a 6 month wait to actually receive your money if approved for CIA/supp from what I have been reading but it is back dated to date of application.



Paperwork done from the March of Dimes.  What happens after their opinion/report is completed - They look at all facets of problems, including own doctor, specialist as well as their own evaluations physical and psychosocial. What does CM do with this report? how do they make their decisions from that if report says not able to be gainfully employed?  is it still in CM's hands/decision or do they go by report only? 

Back to CIA, and supplement and ELB, how is that all going to change with new pension for life system next year? so many unknowns


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## Teager (9 May 2018)

CM brings all reports to a team of medical professionals and they will come to a decision for DEC. Since you are unable to work you will more than likely be deemed DEC.

For PFL...
So once you receive CIA and supplement your CIA grade will be protected and you will be automatically put on the additional pain and suffering benefit which will be tax free. If you are receiving the supplement that will also be protected and you will still receive that however anyone deemed DEC after April 1 2019 will not receive the supplement as it will be eliminated. Those that are DEC may also be eleigiable for a 1% pay raise if you have under 20 years of service. So 1% for each year until you would have hit 20 years in the CAF. 

ELB will still be the same amount it's just rolled  into a few other things and renamed. VAC says you will receive the same amount you receive now before offsets for all benefits possibly more.

Scroll to the very bottom there is Q&A there for each benefit that explains how they are going to do business under the PFL.

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/services/pension-for-life


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## Amos (9 May 2018)

Teager said:
			
		

> CM brings all reports to a team of medical professionals and they will come to a decision for DEC. Since you are unable to work you will more than likely be deemed DEC.
> 
> For PFL...
> So once you receive CIA and supplement your CIA grade will be protected and you will be automatically put on the additional pain and suffering benefit which will be tax free. If you are receiving the supplement that will also be protected and you will still receive that however anyone deemed DEC after April 1 2019 will not receive the supplement as it will be eliminated. Those that are DEC may also be eleigiable for a 1% pay raise if you have under 20 years of service. So 1% for each year until you would have hit 20 years in the CAF.
> ...



I'm confused because wasn't that same medical professional team already involved in writing/submitting their professional opinion for March of Dimes functional/psychosocial/vocational testing? sounds/look like duplication


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## Teager (9 May 2018)

My process was different as my voc rehab was under Sisip so no involvement with March of dimes. I only required a medical report from my doctor for VAC to make there decision.


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## Amos (20 Jun 2018)

So DEC all done. CIA and CIA supplement applied too. 
I realize waiting for award can take upward to a year but how about CIA? Are wait times same or quicker?

Are CIa and supplement going to be protected next year? The way I read the policy, it sounds a but iffy


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## Teager (21 Jun 2018)

GreenArmychick said:
			
		

> So DEC all done. CIA and CIA supplement applied too.
> I realize waiting for award can take upward to a year but how about CIA? Are wait times same or quicker?
> 
> Are CIa and supplement going to be protected next year? The way I read the policy, it sounds a but iffy



Expect a wait of 3 to 7 months for approval but CIA and supp will both be approved at the same time for you.

They will be protected but the CIA amount will change a bit as it will be tax free but your grade level will be protected.


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## Amos (21 Jun 2018)

Then I wonder what these words mean 
 "amounts protected until equal to or less than IRB amount payable".
 Seems counterintuitive


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## Teager (21 Jun 2018)

It does but I had it explained that IRB amounts could change up or down with future goverments. Basically your supp and CIA are safe. What I worry about are any re assessments and a change in any criteria which then can cause a loss of benefit or lower grade. Just have to wait and see I guess.


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## Amos (21 Jun 2018)

Right, reassessments.
I'm at 93% right now. what's the cut-off for no more reassessment?
have a couple more claims to put in yet.
This new PFL is not looking good at all.


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## Teager (22 Jun 2018)

GreenArmychick said:
			
		

> Right, reassessments.
> I'm at 93% right now. what's the cut-off for no more reassessment?
> have a couple more claims to put in yet.
> This new PFL is not looking good at all.



Sorry, I meant reassessment for your CIA. For me I was bumped from grade 3 to 2 because of time served. But VAC is removing the time served piece from the policy so if I get reassessed I will be bumped back down to a grade 3.

As for reassessment of injuries/illness if they keep getting worse you can keep on doing them. If you have more claims and Max out at 100% you still need to put the claims in as you will not get any more money for them but VAC will cover any medical costs associated with that injury/illness.


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## Amos (22 Jun 2018)

I'll likely be at the lowest CIA grade anyways as I had 20 years in.
I was speaking of re-assessments for DEC in 2 years. I think if 100% no DEC reassessment required. You'd think 93% would be enough tho.
Thanks for help


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## CampCricket (27 Jun 2018)

I am in a similar situation as Armychick. My case manager recently started the process for DEC. My physician and psychiatrist both filled out reports stating I was medically unsuitable to return to work. I am at 95% according to VAC on my disability rating. I am in receipt of CIA level 3. I was deemed totally disabled by Health Canada, Service Canada and SISIP LTD. I currently receive CPP disability pension along with my CF pension. I attempted a RTW program with the Public Service where they made significant accommodations for my medical limitations... but was unsuccessful (my medical issues deemed me unreliable and a liability/safety issue)... so I feel comfortable saying I should meet the DEC eligibility. That being said - there is still a requirement for re-evaluation every 2 years? And if so, is this still true if in receipt of CPP Disabilty?

Armychick, please keep me informed when your DEC actually goes through. That way I have a better idea of the timeline. I am hoping to have DEC approved with enough time to apply for the CIA Supplement before April 2019.


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## Teager (27 Jun 2018)

CampCricket said:
			
		

> I am in a similar situation as Armychick. My case manager recently started the process for DEC. My physician and psychiatrist both filled out reports stating I was medically unsuitable to return to work. I am at 95% according to VAC on my disability rating. I am in receipt of CIA level 3. I was deemed totally disabled by Health Canada, Service Canada and SISIP LTD. I currently receive CPP disability pension along with my CF pension. I attempted a RTW program with the Public Service where they made significant accommodations for my medical limitations... but was unsuccessful (my medical issues deemed me unreliable and a liability/safety issue)... so I feel comfortable saying I should meet the DEC eligibility. That being said - there is still a requirement for re-evaluation every 2 years? And if so, is this still true if in receipt of CPP Disabilty?
> 
> Armychick, please keep me informed when your DEC actually goes through. That way I have a better idea of the timeline. I am hoping to have DEC approved with enough time to apply for the CIA Supplement before April 2019.



Your DEC decision should be rather quick. Mine was done within a week of my case manager having the paper work. That being said I've heard some decisions taking a lot longer. Once I applied for supplement it took a month to get approved just FYI for you.


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## Amos (27 Jun 2018)

Mine was approved within a few weeks.  CIA application was put in shortly after, still waiting for decision, which is due mid-July IF  they stick to the 12 weeks rules.


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## Amos (1 Jul 2018)

Another question would be:
I have one year reserve class C for which I paid pension back and 20 years reg force. I reqd for CIA and supplement eligibility that career less than 25 years but also read from many 20 year career. Which is it?
I am DEC and 93% disabled dual client.


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## CampCricket (25 Jul 2018)

GreenArmychick said:
			
		

> Another question would be:
> I have one year reserve class C for which I paid pension back and 20 years reg force. I reqd for CIA and supplement eligibility that career less than 25 years but also read from many 20 year career. Which is it?
> I am DEC and 93% disabled dual client.



How many years did you serve in the reserves? VAC counted all my class A, B, and C time the same in regards to CIA. From my understanding the 20 years is for those under the old veterans charter and 25 is for those that are under the new veterans charter. I'm not sure how it works for those that have VAC pension conditions under both. All my VAC claims were filed after 2006 so all my decisions fall under the NVC - hence 25 year bench mark is used for me (even though I enrolled in the 90s). 

Also, from their decision letter when the PIA changed to CIA - I was told that I didn't meet the criteria for an increase in grade level as I had more than 20 years (my years of service was 25 years of CF time but actually 12 years of pensionable service - VAC went with my CF time). So from that letter - it would appear that VAC stops counting after 20 years of CF service in regards to grade levels on CIA). I will be curious to find out if they use the same criteria under the new changes that are coming out in APril of 2019 - and how the 1% for each year short of 25 years will work out... will the actually use pensioned time or service time? Communication from VAC to me has indicated that they are currently working that out and acknowledge that there is a problem those serving in other government departments, the reserves, those that took special leave... etc - that are penalized under the current program - and so they will let me know closer to April of next year how this other types of service and leave will impact the calculation.

I hope this helps.


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## Teager (25 Jul 2018)

I received this e-mail from VAC today in response to concerns and confusion around having the CIA Supplement and grade levels once the PFL kicks in.



> Thank you for your review and comments on the proposed regulatory amendments to support the Pension for Life benefit package. I hope the additional information below helps to answer your questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Amos (26 Jul 2018)

CampCricket said:
			
		

> How many years did you serve in the reserves? VAC counted all my class A, B, and C time the same in regards to CIA. From my understanding the 20 years is for those under the old veterans charter and 25 is for those that are under the new veterans charter. I'm not sure how it works for those that have VAC pension conditions under both. All my VAC claims were filed after 2006 so all my decisions fall under the NVC - hence 25 year bench mark is used for me (even though I enrolled in the 90s).


I only had 1 year of C class (ytep) and 20 years reg force.


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## upandatom (10 Aug 2018)

GreenArmychick said:
			
		

> Right, reassessments.
> I'm at 93% right now. what's the cut-off for no more reassessment?
> have a couple more claims to put in yet.
> This new PFL is not looking good at all.



Im Fighting with them now about it

Im 102%, wont receive more money over 100%, 

Here's the weird part

If you have a reassessment, and favorable, you get paid the amount for that year, 
So its now 365400, and my original assessment was in 2016, so two years changes, plus the one in april. 

Official wording

Disability Awards are paid at the current rate in the year for
which the award was granted. If the same condition was reassessed
at a later time and the assessment increased, you would receive
the increase at the new rate for that year. 



But, 
Always make sure you get an appropriate representation of your Disability level, over 100% or not. 
For CIA, it matters, mental ability and physical. So if you go to grade 1 due to Mental, and another physical claim or amount makes you eligible for grade 2 for having both.


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## Amos (15 Aug 2018)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Im Fighting with them now about it
> 
> Im 102%, wont receive more money over 100%,
> 
> ...



I’m 54% physical under veteran disability and 39% for ptsd under NVC. I have 21 years in. I have no idea where this will go.


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## Amos (22 Aug 2018)

CIA and supplement approved. Level 3 as expected.  Are payments backdated to application date?  
What are withholds in financial benefits? taxes?


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## Teager (22 Aug 2018)

GreenArmychick said:
			
		

> CIA and supplement approved. Level 3 as expected.  Are payments backdated to application date?
> What are withholds in financial benefits? taxes?



Yes, it is back dated to date of application. Withholds are the taxes. You will be able to see it all in my VAC Account once they plug it in.


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## Amos (22 Aug 2018)

Teager said:
			
		

> Yes, it is back dated to date of application. Withholds are the taxes. You will be able to see it all in my VAC Account once they plug it in.



It's in myvac account but didn't understand withholds.  Got it now.  The other thing, I don't see a back pay, it should come soon I guess. But I do see added CIA and Supplement for next month.

As for next year, we won't loose the supplement and these won't be taxable if I understand well?   

Thanks


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## Teager (22 Aug 2018)

CIA won't be taxable but the supplement still will.


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## Amos (23 Aug 2018)

Thanks for info


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## Teager (24 Aug 2018)

No problem. Also review my reply #21 on page 1 which is an e-mail from VAC explaining the what and how for CIA and supplement come April.


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## dunlop303 (11 Sep 2018)

I'm trying to get the appropriate benefits I. Place, and more importantly at the proper grades. I receive the CIA but at the lowest level although I have 100% rated disability via VAC. I submitted a reassessment request, and requesting the supplement. I have your refusal physical IED blasts (twice) I injuries - Spine, Pelvis ect / then the more complex stuff: Traumatic Brain Injury  , brain matter tears ect, then of course PTSD.

Unemployed frequently and currently due to my side effects.. what does it take to get the proper benefits.

Based on this should I not be receicing:

CIA level 1 with supplement

Exceptional Incapacity allowance (since I'm rated over 98%?) Any idea what level I should get based on the injuries described?

Thanks guys


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## Teager (11 Sep 2018)

I believe EIA is for those under the old system. If your injuries are under the NVC then you won't get EIA.

Since you are getting CIA have you been deemed DEC (deminished earnings capacity)? If not ask for it and apply for the supplement if approved DEC. When you apply for the supplement you can also ask for a review of your CIA at the very least you might be moved up to level 2.

You also have to remember VAC doesn't work off of your disability rating. They go off what you can and can't do.

In my opinion you should be at a higher CIA level.


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## dunlop303 (11 Sep 2018)

Thanks buddy, I was thinking the same. Just submitted the Dec a couple days back and had it redzoned. It's already in phase 3


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## Beachexplorer (18 Nov 2018)

Was declared DEC in Oct 2018,  Applied for CIA and CIAS immediately after decision of DEC.  I have just received letter denying both CIA and CIAS.  Has this ever happened to anyone?  I guess I will now have to appeal


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## Teager (18 Nov 2018)

Beachexplorer said:
			
		

> Was declared DEC in Oct 2018,  Applied for CIA and CIAS immediately after decision of DEC.  I have just received letter denying both CIA and CIAS.  Has this ever happened to anyone?  I guess I will now have to appeal



Did it say why it denied you? Normally there's a quick explanation as to why. It is possible they just didn't see your DEC since the applications were so close together.

If they denied on medical grounds then there is not an appeal. It is a review and you must ask for the review in writing within 60 days. Alternatively you can also just reapply for it.

I would definitely verify if they saw you were DEC when they made that decision.


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## Steve1959 (14 Dec 2018)

Teager, BeachExplorer and GreenArmyChick,

I am in a situation similar to your questions and responses. I have been approved a disability benefit at 109% (NVC) with numerous consequential claims that have been approved but no percentage as I am already over 100%. All claims are of a physical nature (cancer and related consequences). I was denied CIA in January 2018 and denied a review in February 2018. I am currently unable to work due to my illness and my private insurance (not SISIP) has deemed me functionally and medically unfit and as such I am receiving LTD from this insurance company. I am on the Rehab program with VAC and last week I was deemed DEC. As such, I have re-applied for CIA and the Supplement. I have over 33 years in the military and my medical conditions don't fit the medical conditions as per the CIA definition. My medically limiting conditions are: cancer (TMJ, Sleep Apnea, Left Facial Nerve Impairment, Cervicigenic Headaches, Left Supraspinatus Tendon Tear, GRD, Lymphedema, Xerostomia, Myofascial Pain Neck, Myofascial Pain Left Shoulder, Dermatitis, Chest Wall Condt, Throat Condt, and chronic fatigue from pain medication, sleep apnea and long-term side effects from radiation therapy).As you can read numerous medical conditions not to mention life limiting. I find my CIA and Supplement situation similar to BeachExplorer's and GreenArmyChick's. Can any of you provide me with insight on how to convince VAC that I am deserving of CIA and the Supplement? Your pro's and con's would be greatly appreciated.

Steve1959


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## Teager (14 Dec 2018)

Steve, the CIA is based off of how limiting your conditions are on your daily life. So if the above hampers your ability to do daily things and those conditions are connected to your VAC claims then it shouldn't be a far reach for CIA. Did VAC say why you were denied CIA in the denial letter?

Do you have a case manager? If so I would ask them for so help or see if they can explain why you have been denied. If you know why you have been denied it can make it clearer as to how to possibly get it the next go around. Some have had denials just due to wording by there doctors.


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## Steve1959 (14 Dec 2018)

Teager,

When I was denied CIA (and CIA review) in January/February 2018 it was because I didn't meet the "time remaining" in the military component of CIA, nor did I meet the medical component of CIA (blind, amputee, etc). I figure that since I am now DEC with the numerous medical conditions that preclude me from working then I might have a chance at CIA and the Supplement. Better off trying then wishing I did.

Steve


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## Teager (14 Dec 2018)

You can definitely fight on the grounds of medical limitations. The time remaining is the part that could be problematic. I'm not sure but I think you need to get CIA before you can get the supplement. So if they still don't give you CIA due to the time requirement then that will squash the supplement.

Come April 1 the time requirement is being removed so you would get over that hurdle but the downside is the supplement will be gone then.

It's an interesting case you have and one that's very unfair with the changes coming. I would contact the Ombudsman though and see if they can offer any assistance with your case.


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## Steve1959 (14 Dec 2018)

Thanks Teager. I will be contacting the Ombudsman for their input. Notwithstanding, I don't think that the CIA policy was written for veterans with medical issues such as mine. C'est la vie.

Steve


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## Amos (15 Dec 2018)

I think it has to do with time remaining, as in if career was cut short off 25 years.  From what I understand, if completed 25 years in service, one cannot be eligible for CIA.  That's the way I read it on the VAC site anyways.


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## Beachexplorer (15 Dec 2018)

I was declared DEC in Oct and applied for CIAS and CIA. I was denied CIA as I had 30 years in and didn’t meet all the prerequisites (amputation etc as was outlined above) so of course because I don’t have CIA, CIAS was too denied (even though DEC). Have to wait for claim for mental health to get approved so I can reapply for CIA and see if it will help my case.  But of course nothing will happen soon and will miss my chance to apply for CIAS as it will not be avail for those who want to apply for it come 1 Apr 19


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## Steve1959 (16 Dec 2018)

Thanks for the GreenArmyChick and BeachExplorer. Much appreciated. I am not expecting to be approved for CIA, but, I had to try to put this to rest once and for all.

Steve1959


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## Arty Sim (17 Dec 2018)

I was wondering if others here would be interested in commenting - I have had numerous injuries over decades, both physical and mental.Though I was aware of how to file a disability claim I did not know about things like CIA,ELB,DEC nor did my Case Manager ever bring them up to me in a discussion. I found out about them about 2 years back, but was under the impression a veteran had to be 100% totally demolished before they could even apply let alone be granted any of this compensation. In another discussion veterans had posted that their CM had filed on their behalf declaration of DEC based on their PTSD %, with some as low as 35%...and they were granted DEC status. For years my PTSD % has been above that(let alone my physical %), but no CM ever said I was a good candidate , I ask are there others here who have been labeled DEC for their PTSD and if so what was your % at the time of application?, although I know the humiliation and low self esteem that comes with being told you may never work a normal job again, I still can`t help but feel like I`ve been short changed.?


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## Steve1959 (17 Dec 2018)

Arty Sim,

Send a VAC message on your VAC account asking your CM to request a DEC consideration for you. Go over the DEC policy and ensure you paint a clear picture to your CM on your total physical and mental limitations. Describe everything, don't leave anything out. While you are at it, request that your CM advance an ELB and CIA application on your behalf, or, simply apply yourself. Are you on VAC Rehab or have you been? ELB and DEC require VAC Rehab. If you aren't on VAC Rehab, again, you can talk to your CM about this. Your personal situation/medical limitations may have never been properly conveyed to your CM or he/she never spoke to you in-depth on your condition and what you may be entitled to. Don't hesitate contact your CM soonest. 

Steve1959


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## upandatom (18 Dec 2018)

It was explained to me that you also have to be involved in a Rehab program, 
Which is a hurdle for you from what I can see. 

You have to be enrolled in a Rehab program that addresses one or more of the medical concerns. 
In my case, I am under it for PTSD which is why the lowest grade was applied, and we are attempting to get the Rehab program for my hearing to be included in my CIA, which would increase the grade level, 

Problem is, for some Medical conditions, they do not have or implement a Rehab program (Hearing is one of them, because there is no way to repair the hearing, we are attempting a different approach to get the Rehab program as I require to hear for my employment, and I will have to be retrained, and the only way to do that is to be on the Rehab program.) With that, both conditions woul qualify for Grade 2 CIA, apparently, but they also do not have an official CIA grading format anymore.


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## Arty Sim (18 Dec 2018)

upandatom said:
			
		

> It was explained to me that you also have to be involved in a Rehab program,
> Which is a hurdle for you from what I can see.
> 
> You have to be enrolled in a Rehab program that addresses one or more of the medical concerns.
> ...


 Thanks, I was focusing totally on my PTSD %, but you’re telling that in an application for CIA grades and DEC I should include my other injuries like hearing, back ,arm, I just assumed VAC had all that information in my file and would take that into consideration automatically. I already did a rehab program about 20 years ago.


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## upandatom (18 Dec 2018)

Arty Sim said:
			
		

> Thanks, I was focusing totally on my PTSD %, but you’re telling that in an application for CIA grades and DEC I should include my other injuries like hearing, back ,arm, I just assumed VAC had all that information in my file and would take that into consideration automatically. I already did a rehab program about 20 years ago.



Yeah it was news to me until recently as well, there has to be a rehab program in play for you to be able to get the CIA, the more disabilities applied to the CIA, which is basically your daily living, for me

1. Driving, 
2. Social sitauations
3. rage, anxiety, stress

is why i have the first grade, however add in lack of hearing, would put it to the second grade as its a second disability.


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## Arty Sim (18 Dec 2018)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Yeah it was news to me until recently as well, there has to be a rehab program in play for you to be able to get the CIA, the more disabilities applied to the CIA, which is basically your daily living, for me
> 
> 1. Driving,
> 2. Social sitauations
> ...


 I`m new to all of this , I think the rehab program I did was through ltd/sissip , I dont know if thats the same as VAC? how bad would your hearing have to be to be considered a disability, past 5%? or much greater, same goes for back and and arm injuries, if a vet was 5% lumbar, 5% cervical, 5% arm these seem low but they do affect a veterans quality of life ? But I just live with them and ignore complaining about them to vac about what I may or may not be entitled to,


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## upandatom (18 Dec 2018)

Arty Sim said:
			
		

> I`m new to all of this , I think the rehab program I did was through ltd/sissip , I dont know if thats the same as VAC? how bad would your hearing have to be to be considered a disability, past 5%? or much greater, same goes for back and and arm injuries, if a vet was 5% lumbar, 5% cervical, 5% arm these seem low but they do affect a veterans quality of life ? But I just live with them and ignore complaining about them to vac about what I may or may not be entitled to,



IT has to be considered a Severe and Permanent disability, which for hearing is above the 300 DSHL threshold, which I am (after this weeks Audiogram,) is 375, I was 320 in april, seems between 20-60 every 6 months to a year when I am in. 

Decibel Sum Hearing loss, The instructions for reading the audiogram are on the Table of disabilities.


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## Arty Sim (18 Dec 2018)

upandatom said:
			
		

> IT has to be considered a Severe and Permanent disability, which for hearing is above the 300 DSHL threshold, which I am (after this weeks Audiogram,) is 375, I was 320 in april, seems between 20-60 every 6 months to a year when I am in.
> 
> Decibel Sum Hearing loss, The instructions for reading the audiogram are on the Table of disabilities.


 what would sever be in percentages for hearing alone, I mean my hearing loss might be 1 % it`s not actioned on yet, Tinnitus is probably 5-10%, then I think there is an added 1 % for QOL, it sucks but I wouldn`t classsify it as debilitating


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## upandatom (18 Dec 2018)

Arty Sim said:
			
		

> what would sever be in percentages for hearing alone, I mean my hearing loss might be 1 % it`s not actioned on yet, Tinnitus is probably 5-10%, then I think there is an added 1 % for QOL, it sucks but I wouldn`t classsify it as debilitating



Severe and permanent is 300 DSHL or higher,


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## Arty Sim (9 Jan 2019)

Steve1959 said:
			
		

> Arty Sim,
> 
> Send a VAC message on your VAC account asking your CM to request a DEC consideration for you. Go over the DEC policy and ensure you paint a clear picture to your CM on your total physical and mental limitations. Describe everything, don't leave anything out. While you are at it, request that your CM advance an ELB and CIA application on your behalf, or, simply apply yourself. Are you on VAC Rehab or have you been? ELB and DEC require VAC Rehab. If you aren't on VAC Rehab, again, you can talk to your CM about this. Your personal situation/medical limitations may have never been properly conveyed to your CM or he/she never spoke to you in-depth on your condition and what you may be entitled to. Don't hesitate contact your CM soonest.
> 
> Steve1959


 I read about some vets who have an "awesome" Case Manager, and others say their CM is a different "A" word. Where do you go when you suggest to your CM that you would like to apply for DEC status, but the CM refuses to help?. You can apply for REHAB and CIA on your own but a recommendation for DEC has to come from your CM. Is that within their power to outright refuse to help their client, shouldnt they just submit the paperwork and let VAC adjudicators decide if I`m a candidate or not?


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## upandatom (10 Jan 2019)

Arty Sim said:
			
		

> I read about some vets who have an "awesome" Case Manager, and others say their CM is a different "A" word. Where do you go when you suggest to your CM that you would like to apply for DEC status, but the CM refuses to help?. You can apply for REHAB and CIA on your own but a recommendation for DEC has to come from your CM. Is that within their power to outright refuse to help their client, shouldnt they just submit the paperwork and let VAC adjudicators decide if I`m a candidate or not?



I have had both, 
The first one removed me from Rehab program, without having a Psych or proper treatment plan in place, she was a real C, although she did help with CIA for my PTSD which is the Permanent and Severe category. From what I understand, it was pretty much a given though. 

MY current one, after reapplying, is working her ass off so I can get on the Rehab program for my hearing, which in my line of work is absolutely required. Rehab for hearing is usually not allowed because there is not a way to fix it, yes I have hearing aids and a masking device, however, I am above 300 DSHL and dropping, which I have to be able to hear customers on the phone. AT my point right now, that is getting tricky. So trying to get a rehab program for my hearing will be focused on retraining me for gainful employment where it is not such a requirement. 

They still have to check boxes that would put you in CIA zone, has to be considered Permanent and Severe, as well as Job Affecting. 
Some are- 
Permanent and Severe, 
ENrolled in an approved Rehab program for that condition, 
Effects on Day to day
Effects on Employment. 

This is where the new APSC is a bonus, it doesnt rely on your Income, it just looks at your Permanent and Severe categories, and from there you get grade 1/2/3.


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## Arty Sim (17 Jan 2019)

GreenArmychick said:
			
		

> i
> interesting.  CM working on DEC now. I just got a call from CVVRS saying I am not able to be gainfully employed. The DEC process almost completed.  My CM just applied for me for the CIA not long ago. looks like DEC may be done before CIA. I don't see anywhere that the CIA must be in place before DEC.


 So CVVRS got your file from VAC and just made decision you are DEC and phoned you with that result? You never first had to meet with a CVVRS rep and do any physical/mental testing to see where you are at?


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## Arty Sim (17 Jan 2019)

upandatom said:
			
		

> I have had both,
> The first one removed me from Rehab program, without having a Psych or proper treatment plan in place, she was a real C, although she did help with CIA for my PTSD which is the Permanent and Severe category. From what I understand, it was pretty much a given though.
> 
> MY current one, after reapplying, is working her *** off so I can get on the Rehab program for my hearing, which in my line of work is absolutely required. Rehab for hearing is usually not allowed because there is not a way to fix it, yes I have hearing aids and a masking device, however, I am above 300 DSHL and dropping, which I have to be able to hear customers on the phone. AT my point right now, that is getting tricky. So trying to get a rehab program for my hearing will be focused on retraining me for gainful employment where it is not such a requirement.
> ...


 So are you currently now DEC, did CVVRS contact you directly or just read your VAC file and make a recommendation back to VAC without directly involving you


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## Amos (18 Jan 2019)

Arty Sim said:
			
		

> So CVVRS got your file from VAC and just made decision you are DEC and phoned you with that result? You never first had to meet with a CVVRS rep and do any physical/mental testing to see where you are at?



I had to do the mental and physical testing from march of dimes before all of this.  2 days physical and 1 day mental.


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## Amos (18 Jan 2019)

upandatom said:
			
		

> IT has to be considered a Severe and Permanent disability, which for hearing is above the 300 DSHL threshold, which I am (after this weeks Audiogram,) is 375, I was 320 in april, seems between 20-60 every 6 months to a year when I am in.
> 
> Decibel Sum Hearing loss, The instructions for reading the audiogram are on the Table of disabilities.


Where do you get the info about Severe and Permanent disability numbers for hearing loss? 
How do you calculate the DSHL?  I have a feeling didn't get the proper reassessment on my last hearing test. I have the results but don't know how to look and calculate them.


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## Amos (21 Jan 2019)

Another question on DEC/CIA

Can one be 100% combined disabilities, both systems and not be DEC or CIA?


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## Teager (21 Jan 2019)

GreenArmychick said:
			
		

> Another question on DEC/CIA
> 
> Can one be 100% combined disabilities, both systems and not be DEC or CIA?



Yes. Your rating has no bearing on the criteria for CIA and DEC.


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## Arty Sim (21 Jan 2019)

GreenArmychick said:
			
		

> I had to do the mental and physical testing from march of dimes before all of this.  2 days physical and 1 day mental.


 physical, I can understand but what kind of mental testing can they do to assess your level of PTSD.?


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## Amos (21 Jan 2019)

a bunch of tests, I don't understand them, just go through them and they analyse them I guess.


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## corporalcannabis (1 Feb 2019)

Going in for my DEC appt with the shrink next week. CM asked if I was on LTD from an outside source? Yes Iam, how does this make a difference either way? Do I need to get off my LTD(quit my job) before applying for DEC? Any help would be greatly appreciated. BTW, looked up the policy on DEC, saying nothing reference this.  ???


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## Teager (2 Feb 2019)

corporalcannabis said:
			
		

> Going in for my DEC appt with the shrink next week. CM asked if I was on LTD from an outside source? Yes Iam, how does this make a difference either way? Do I need to get off my LTD(quit my job) before applying for DEC? Any help would be greatly appreciated. BTW, looked up the policy on DEC, saying nothing reference this.  ???



DEC means you are unable to make 66.6% of your prerelease salary. So if you are employed and making that or more you would be denied. You need to be on LTD as that indicates you are permanently disabled/unable to work.


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## prairefire (23 Mar 2019)

I was approved for CIA in January. In February my case manager scheduled me for DEC assessment and Last week it was approved.
My CM told me to apply for CIA supplement which I did. With all the changes on April 1 what is likely to happen? 

I was told my CIA level may go to 2 but the supplement will be gone on 1 April..................Something does not make sense to me


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## Teager (23 Mar 2019)

prairefire said:
			
		

> I was approved for CIA in January. In February my case manager scheduled me for DEC assessment and Last week it was approved.
> My CM told me to apply for CIA supplement which I did. With all the changes on April 1 what is likely to happen?
> 
> I was told my CIA level may go to 2 but the supplement will be gone on 1 April..................Something does not make sense to me



If you get the supplement it will be grandfathered in after April 1st. Your CIA will switch over to the new APSC level which will be tax free. Level 1 is $1500 level 2 is $1000 and level 3 is $500 so if you are a level 2 CIA you will get level 2 APSC.


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