# Is the CF going to close Borden?



## DCRabbit (29 May 2010)

I'm just curious if anyone knows. My brother in law is a Lt. Col and he keeps saying they're going to cos it serves no purpose. I grew up there and don't want to see my home gone. So I'm just curious if anyone knows anything... and I hope I put this is hte right forum. If not.. my apologies.


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## Michael OLeary (29 May 2010)

Before the CF could close CFB Borden, it would be necessary to relocate all of the functions being performed there to other locations. Has your brother-in-law explained how "Borden performing no function" can be applied to the various schools there? Where does he say that each school is going? What does he think will happen to the Ammunition Depot? Lastly, how can this all be happening in secret? For Borden to close, the plans would affect so many in so many trades that it could not be kept a secret, and there has certainly been no mention of it here.  Has your brother-in-law ever been to Borden? What occupation is he?

From Wikipedia, here is the list of major functions that your brother-in-law feels are not contributing to the CF:



> Lodger formations and units
> 
> Lodger units
> 
> ...


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## Jammer (29 May 2010)

Trenton is going as well.
My dad, (a retired Sgt says so). ;D


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## harry8422 (29 May 2010)

My friends fathers cousin's coworkers mom said that petawawa and gagetown are gone as well.


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## GAP (29 May 2010)

Well, the rumor has it, that as soon as the G-20 is over, the park for the protesters, is going to be the new CF Ontario base, right after downsizing......


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## Ex-Dragoon (29 May 2010)

They have decided to move the Dockyard to Sable Island.


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## GAP (29 May 2010)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> They have decided to move the Dockyard to Sable Island.



That would be about the right size, what with all the tied up water thingys and all..... ;D


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## krustyrl (29 May 2010)

Was just hearing the NDHQ building is being dismantled and moving to Swift Current Sk.      :


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## Edward Campbell (29 May 2010)

Many, many years ago the standing joke in the Staff College was that the absolute minimum, _baseline_ force structure for the CF was 1R22eR in CFB Summerside. It was thought that Summerside was rock solid safe ... it wasn't.

There are, as Michael O'Leary says, some pretty large and important units in Borden that would be costly to move e.g. CFSATE to e.g. Cold Lake, CFSAL to Gagetown and CFSEME to ValCartier ... costly but not impossible.

But "closing" Borden would be a mistake. Toronto area reserve units, just as an example, need training areas and facilities within easy reach, but that's another, national, problem.


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## Eye In The Sky (29 May 2010)

DCRabbit said:
			
		

> I'm just curious if anyone knows. My brother in law is a Lt. Col and he keeps saying they're going to cos it serves no purpose. I grew up there and don't want to see my home gone. So I'm just curious if anyone knows anything... and I hope I put this is hte right forum. If not.. my apologies.



Based on the part in yellow, I'd have to guess that  your brother-in-law works for this Colonel.


E.R. Campbell,

We were (S'ide folks) all very surprised that CFB Summerside was closing, however it did (kind of) make sense, as Greenwood was so close and any of the schools and flying Sqn's could operate from either location (as it is now at 14 Wing).

Which leads to a question.  If Borden were to close, where would they relocate everything there to, and has this ever even been seriously considered in the past?


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## Kat Stevens (29 May 2010)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> But "closing" Borden Chilliwack would be a mistake. Toronto Vancouver area reserve units, just as an example, need training areas and facilities within easy reach, but that's another, national, problem.



Yet here we are with 1 CER in Edmonton, 1200 KMs from home, CFSME on the other side of the planet, and CFOCS just plain gone.  Never say never.


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## Nfld Sapper (29 May 2010)

But Kat CFB ASU CHILLIWACK has reopened but it is just a former shell (if you want to call it that) of its self......


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## OldSolduer (29 May 2010)

I heard 17 Wing was moving to Churchill then after a few years to Yellowknife. >


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## Nfld Sapper (29 May 2010)

Rumor has it that 2 RCR is relocating to CFB GOOSEBAY........

 ;D
 >

EDITED TO FIX SPELLING


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## aesop081 (29 May 2010)

DCRabbit said:
			
		

> he keeps saying they're going to cos it serves no purpose.



No purpose ?

I'm sure the girls in Barrie would disagree with your brother-in-law !


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## SeaKingTacco (29 May 2010)

> Many, many years ago the standing joke in the Staff College was that the absolute minimum, baseline force structure for the CF was 1R22eR in CFB Summerside. It was thought that Summerside was rock solid safe ... it wasn't.



Edward- you forgot the Snowbirds.  If the Air Force, tomorrow, was limited to 10 airplanes- 9 of them would be painted red and white.  The tenth would probably be a Challenger...


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## Edward Campbell (29 May 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> ...
> Which leads to a question.  If Borden were to close, where would they relocate everything there to, and has this ever even been seriously considered in the past?




A very quick and dirty staff check of sorts was done by the engineers (then Chief Construction and Properties branch in NDHQ) back in the '80s - for ADM(Mat). I emphasize the "quick and dirty" aspect but they came up with space trade-offs at various bases. The conclusion, if my memory serves, was that it would cost a lot - a real lot - to move the big schools but the savings from reducing a major base to reserve training centre (think Meaford) sized place were also considerable. I cannot remember why ADM(Mat) wanted to know; I'm pretty sure his office never proposed anything of the sort, but there was some interest, back in the '80s, from the Air Force, about making Cold Lake the "home" of the Air Force and that meant moving units, including the Aeropspace School, there.


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## Old Sweat (29 May 2010)

I wonder about the long term savings of closing a major base such as Borden, or even of reducing it to an ASU Det to support reserve training. On the plus side, the population would drop dramatically, both the permanent staff and the trainees and PATs, etc. However, there would be a requirement for these peoples and their families to go somewhere and to operate and be supported when they get there. 

Borden may be many things, but one thing that it is not, and that is remote. Some of the schools could go to places like Kingston and Winnipeg, but there is only so much space. I guess Valcartier or St Jean also are options, but again major construction would be required. Maybe major construction could be postponed, if empty barrack blocks could be converted into classrooms and offices. This was done in 1970 when the Combat Arms School and the Canadian Forces School of Artillery were consolidated in Gagetown. It was hardly morale building to lok up from one's desk to see the marks on the wall where the plumbing for urinals, toilets, sinks and showers was capped, as what had been latrines were converted to other purposes. In fact, despite a stated CF policy that building new accommodation at CTC was the number one priority, it was not until decades later that the project was finally implemented. False economy, I guess.


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## the 48th regulator (29 May 2010)

If they do close Borden, I hope the Golf Clubhouse stays, they serve a fine lunch.

BTW, what colour is the boathouse in Hereford?

dileas

tess


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## dapaterson (29 May 2010)

Any base closing is a (big P) Political issue first and foremost.  However, my impression is that the CF has a list of bases it would prefer to divest well before any changes are made in Borden.

In addition, and in my opinion, having a major base close to the Nation's largest airport and other transport facilities makes sense.  Other bases, with limited accessibility (Kingston, we're talking about you) cause far more angst and trouble and should be ahead on any list of divestment.


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## Edward Campbell (29 May 2010)

I too believe that Kingston (the top of the hill part, only) is high on several "close" lists, and has been for several years.


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## medicineman (29 May 2010)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I too believe that Kingston (the top of the hill part, only) is high on several "close" lists, and has been for several years.



When I got posted to Kingston in 95, I was expecting to move within 2 years... when I got posted to Gagetown 7 years later, not only did it not close, it got bigger. 

We actually thought everything save the College and a small GSU were going to Gagetown and Borden.  To the original post, I'd have to say that someone is smoking crack and not sharing with anyone else.

MM


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## Edward Campbell (29 May 2010)

As dapaterson said, closing a base is a tough, big P political decision with major costs attached. We never thought they would close Summerside, either, but they managed it; good for them.


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## Jammer (29 May 2010)

I really don't think K-Town is on the hit list. Come here and see the millions of infrastructure that has, and is happening.


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## Nfld Sapper (29 May 2010)

Jammer said:
			
		

> I really don't think K-Town is on the hit list. Come here and see the millions of infrastructure that has, and is happening.



CFB CHILIWACK comes to mind there Jammer.......


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## Jammer (29 May 2010)

Chilliwack didn't have:

RMC
CFSCE
LFDTS
JSR
1 Cdn Div HQ (again!!!)
JHQ
21 EW Regt and:
400 PATs...I'm just sayin'


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## Eye In The Sky (29 May 2010)

1 Wing HQ is in K-town also.


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## Edward Campbell (29 May 2010)

Jammer said:
			
		

> Chilliwack didn't have:
> 
> RMC
> CFSCE
> ...




And there is, was anyway, twenty_ish_ years ago, a case to move everything except RMC (and Fort Frontenac, as a physical place) somewhere else, along with all those schools in Borden. It may not have been the best case or even a good case but it used to make the rounds again and again - with some pretty very high level cheerleading. I'm guessing it still does.


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## mariomike (29 May 2010)

There is a lot of history there. Some request to have their ashes spread at the RCASC Cenotaph.:
http://rcasc.org/cfbb_sop.html


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## aesop081 (29 May 2010)

Jammer said:
			
		

> Chilliwack didn't have:
> 
> RMC
> CFSCE
> ...



CFB Chilliwack did have CFSME (in a brand new multi-million dollar building), CFOCS, 1 CER (in still new expensive building), a field troop from 6 FES and all the support infrastructure any other base has.


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## OldSolduer (29 May 2010)

If I may, politics has more to do with base closures than the actual need or location etc.

For instance, CFB Calgary was closed and 1 CMBG plus all the units there were moved to Edmonton. Guess who won the riding where CFB Calgary was located and guess who won the riding that contained CFB Edmonton?

Kapyong Barracks was on the closure list for years, but a Lloyd Axworthy ran the city in the federal sense. As soon as Lloyd was gone, so was Kapyong.

Politics my friends.....


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## aesop081 (29 May 2010)

Mid Aged Silverback said:
			
		

> Politics my friends.....



Yup.......look at who had just won most of BC when the decision to close CFB Chilliwack was announced !!


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## Jammer (29 May 2010)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 1 Wing HQ is in K-town also.


Sorry...no dis intended ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (29 May 2010)

no offence taken   8)  just addin' to the list of folks who hang their hats in your neck of the woods.


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## Teeps74 (29 May 2010)

Oh, I pity the fool who thinks to mention closing Kingston again.  That would be a huge political brouhaha, and political suicide to boot. 

But alas, never discount the foolishness of the ignorant.


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## armyvern (29 May 2010)

Where the heck are they going to film "Canada's Worst Driver" now??


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## Michael OLeary (29 May 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Where the heck are they going to film "Canada's Worst Driver" now??



That depends, where are you posted again?


 >


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## medicineman (30 May 2010)

Teeps74 said:
			
		

> Oh, I pity the fool who thinks to mention closing Kingston again.  That would be a huge political brouhaha, and political suicide to boot.
> 
> But alas, never discount the foolishness of the ignorant.



The Speaker of the House of Commons is the MP for Kingston...figure the odds.

MMM


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## exgunnertdo (30 May 2010)

Borden is in Helena Geurgis' riding.

Hmmm.


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## TCBF (30 May 2010)

- One of the problems with closing any impact area is the clean-up.   Closing an area where chemical weapons were tested or stored is a whole different game.   Borden won't close.

- Having said that, they got the Sarin out of the Tokyo subway sysyem, but Mustard is more persistant...


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## Colin Parkinson (30 May 2010)

If more than 85% of the buildings have recently been rebuilt, the odds of being closed are very high. We used to say: "if they are putting a new roof on your building, your hooped" just like, put new engine in vehicle, drive for one month, the cost of replacing windshield causes the vehicle to be surplus ed as it's reached the "maximum allowable repairs for type"


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## Kat Stevens (30 May 2010)

Anyone who thinks Borden (or Kingston) wouldn't get closed due to sheer numbers of units and pers, were obviously not in Lahr when the "going out of business" signs went up shortly after the new CFHE and 4 ADR compound were built.  CDF has nothing to do with base closures.


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## Retired AF Guy (30 May 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Anyone who thinks Borden (or Kingston) wouldn't get closed due to sheer numbers of units and pers, were obviously not in Lahr when the "going out of business" signs went up shortly after the new CFHE and 4 ADR compound were built.  CDF has nothing to do with base closures.



However, the closing of Lahr and Baden was part of the "peace dividend" that we experienced with the fall of the Soviet Empire. Nothing similar is taking place, just the opposite in fact. Plus, the citizens of Lahr and Baden didn't get to vote in Canadian elections.


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## armyvern (30 May 2010)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Anyone who thinks Borden (or Kingston) wouldn't get closed due to sheer numbers of units and pers, were obviously not in Lahr when the "going out of business" signs went up shortly after the new CFHE and 4 ADR compound were built.  CDF has nothing to do with base closures.



Closing Borden would be the purple trades, Air Force (CFSATE, ACA), and Hlth Svcs equivelant of shutting down modern day CTC.

When they close these two bases, that means the NDP are running the nation.


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## a_majoor (30 May 2010)

Closing CFB London and moving 1 RCR to Petawawa also happened after a big burst of base construction and refurbishment. I don't recall the details now, but it seemed pretty clear that it was a "P"olitical decision (London had been announced as being on the chopping block before), and whoever was protecting the base had moved on.


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## SeanNewman (30 May 2010)

The CF has a base in Borden?  

If there are no Reg Force infantry battalions there how can they possibly survive?


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## Edward Campbell (30 May 2010)

Why don’t we start with the bases we absolutely need:

1.	Navy – 

•	One on each coast, Esquimalt and Halifax will do nicely. 
•	Do we need one in the Arctic?

2.	Army –

•	Four, for the time being, anyway, major bases/training centres, Edmonton/Wainwright, Petawawa, ValCartier and Gagetown will do.

3.	Air Force –

•	One on each coast, for maritime patrol, Comox and Greenwood will do but should or *could* operations at Greenwood be move (back?) to Halifax/Shearwater?

•	One each in Western and Eastern Canada for continental air defence, Cold Lake and Bagotville will do nicely. But couldn’t North Bay be collocated with either or, for survivability sake, both B’ville and/or Cold Lake?

•	One major transport base; it’s currently Trenton but it could be e.g. Edmonton or Winnipeg.

•	West, Central and East SAR bases, Comox, Edmonton, Trenton (or Downsview?), Bagotville  and Greenwood or Halifax all come to mind.

•	Training Bases like Moose Jaw and Winnipeg. Do we need both?

4.	National –

•	Ottawa.
•	We also need a few ‘stations’ here and there: Masset, Aldergrove, Inuvik, Alert, Ottawa/Leitrim, Mill Cove and Gander, for example.
•	RMC + Fort Frontenac at Kingston and La Citadel in Québec City are staying for good, sound historical reasons.
•	A single joint Arctic base for Navy and Air operations? Where?

So, from that, what do we *not* need?   

*Suffield*? *Shilo*? (I would want both as reserve force training areas, but …) *Edmonton*, if we could build/expand Wainwright to something akin to Petawawa? *Moose Jaw*, if we could expand Winnipeg? *Winnipeg*, if we could expand Moose Jaw? *Borden*? *Trenton*, if either Edmonton or Winnipeg could do the job? *North Bay*? *Kingston*, other than RMC? *Greenwood*, if Halifax Shearwater will do?


Edited to add: and I'm asking, not advocating.


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## Scoobie Newbie (30 May 2010)

Edmonton has most of the cmbt  units and none of the training area, while Shilo has some of the units and a training area.  As mush as it sucks Wainwright is the more obvious choice if your rounding all the western units into one place.


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## Old Sweat (30 May 2010)

Life ain't fair, and nowhere more so than in Army of the West, and the rest of the CF in Western Canada. The time and space of the distribtution of the CF means that the majority of the forces will be located in the eastern three time zones. Even the demographic shift in population and fiscal power to the western three time zones probably won't change that too much. There are exceptions, primarily in the maritime and fighter forces, but the majority of the operational forces and the individual training world (and its client) base is in the east. I suggest that isn't going to change anytime soon. 

For example, consider if we could pick up CFB Borden and drop it in Winnipeg. What would the extra lost productivity from increased travel time and the costs involved be? (Having said that, I flew from Otawa to Winnipeg and back in January for $280.00, while a round trip to Gagetown in May was $650.00.)


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## Infanteer (30 May 2010)

It appears to me that, over a generation, soldiers have changed in their expectations.  As I understand it, a generation ago most soldiers, single and married, lived on base.  Much of one's life revolved around base functions (like the mess) and bases scattered around in small communities were the norm with bases being largely self-sufficient.

Nowadays, service personnel, both single and married, largely prefered garrisons in larger cities.  Take for example Edmonton and Shilo.  Although no difference between battalions, Shilo is (from my experience in training centers) viewed as the less desirable of the two.  Single soldiers want a decent nightlife while families want a decent housing market, employment oppurtunies for spouses, and a variety of services.  Both seem to enjoy the oppurtunity to leave the base and not see another soldier everywhere they go.

Service culture seems to point to the model of unit garrisons near large towns/cities with training areas not necessarily being attached.  Moving 1 CMBG en masse to Wainwright would probably drive a majority of the members of 1 CMBG as well as the civilian residents of Wainwright up the wall as large Army garrisons, with their large populations of young, alpha males are often "drunken elephants" in small communities.


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## SeanNewman (30 May 2010)

I am 100% with Infanteer, and every younger person I speak to at work about it seems to agree.

The Army seems to be really shooting themselves in the foot retention-wise by going to the super bases.  Take The RCR for example...in the past I could be posted to London or Germany among other options.  What are my choices now?  Petawawa where my wife had to fight for the minimum wage job scraps, or Oromocto where she can't find a decent job because she's not bilingual.

Plus, what in the heck is a 20 year old soldier going to do in Pet on his time off?  Don't try to sell me on Ottawa being "close", either, because a 4-hour round trip is far from close.  In Oromocto at least Fredericton nearby is okay, but that's a far cry from what something like London has to offer.

What you end up with are troops drinking in the shacks and playing video games on the weekend, and getting out after three years because there's nothing to spend your money on but new cars and pizza.


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## armyvern (30 May 2010)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Service culture seems to point to the model of unit garrisons near large towns/cities with training areas not necessarily being attached.  Moving 1 CMBG en masse to Wainwright would probably drive a majority of the members of 1 CMBG as well as the civilian residents of Wainwright up the wall as large Army garrisons, with their large populations of young, alpha males are often "drunken elephants" in small communities.



And yet, Petawawa makes out just fine in this respect. It certainly isn't the end of the world.

But, I do agree - seems that there has been a shift - service requirements/effeciency are not necessarily the ground factors in the decision making process anymore.


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## armyvern (30 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> What you end up with are troops drinking in the shacks and playing video games on the weekend, and getting out after three years because there's nothing to spend your money on but new cars and pizza.



I was here as a Pte. I'm still in 22 years later. In the Mess on Friday night - it was like old home week seeing all the youngsters I was here with as a Pte.

Differences in generations I guess. I wonder why that occured? I think, it's because we let it. A long time ago the CF became about "personal wants" vice service needs. A little slack was given in the system ... and they took it and they ran with it; that "slack" now equals "what can the CF do for me" and if I don't like whatever it is, "I'll just get otu then". Good- Here's your posting message and your release paperwork: choose one.


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## SeanNewman (30 May 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> And yet, Petawawa makes out just fine in this respect. It certainly isn't the end of the world.



Yes, the town of Petawawa consisting of the Chamber of Commerce that looks remarkably similar to the owners of the car dealerships make out well.

Petawawa has more money in it than any other town of 15,000 people in Canada, but less to offer the residents than any other city in Canada with 15,000.  For a town where your poorest person makes $40,000/yr, there should be a Costco, Silver City, and Future Shop right in Pet.  But nope, it takes 1/2 hour just to get to a Canadian Tire.

Work-wise Pet is great, but quality-of-life wise it is terrible.  It's only acceptable for parents with kids 5-10 because there are a lot of sports and activities, but there's nothing to do for single people, nothing to do for married couples with no kids, and nothing to do for teenagers.  

Also, some people will sell the "outdoorsy life" available near Petawawa, but find me anywhere inhabited in Canada that isn't 1/2 hour from camping, a river or lake.

Added - Consider this, as a Royal Canadian, my quality of life has gone up five-fold moving to Oromocto.  What does that say about Petawawa?  Just like the rest of Canada, I am now close to basic stores, more than one restaurant, and a movie theatre made in the last 50 years.  I am willing to sacrifice $1,000/mo to live here (LDA + provincial tax), which is terrible because someone in the Army shouldn't have to make that choice.  I couldn't imagine having spent the last 5 years in Pet if I was single.


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## armyvern (30 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Yes, the town of Petawawa consisting of the Chamber of Commerce that looks remarkably similar to the owners of the car dealerships make out well.
> 
> Petawawa has more money in it than any other town of 15,000 people in Canada, but less to offer the residents than any other city in Canada with 15,000.  For a town where your poorest person makes $40,000/yr, there should be a Costco, Silver City, and Future Shop right in Pet.  But nope, it takes 1/2 hour just to get to a Canadian Tire.
> 
> ...



I have been single too you know while serving.

If a single guy chooses to sit in the shacks playing video games with his time --- that's his problem, not the CFs.

I am a firm believer that a posting is what you make of it; the ratio seems to be getting higher now of those who choose to bitch and whine (and get out) instead of making something of it. And guess what too, we from back in those days, didn't even have the option of sitting in the shacks here in Pet playing video games to take up all that "dead" time --- yet here we are still --- doing just fine.

So, the problem is where & who's again?


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## SeanNewman (30 May 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> If a single guy chooses to sit in the shacks playing video games with his time --- that's his problem, not the CFs.
> 
> So, the problem is where & who's again?



Vern,

The problem in Pet is that there is no viable option like there is even in Oromocto with Fredericton 15-20 minutes away.

In Petawawa a guy can either go to the Warehouse to see all of the other guys they work with, or go to Yogi's and see everyone they work for.

You make some valid points that the Army (as society has) become more about takers than givers, but I don't think that is relevant to the discussion here.


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## armyvern (30 May 2010)

Petamocto said:
			
		

> Vern,
> 
> The problem in Pet is that there is no viable option like there is even in Oromocto with Fredericton 15-20 minutes away.
> 
> ...



Look, there's people in here stating that this makes them "get out."

I'm saying - 22 years ago we had even less to do here ... and we're still in.

Thus, the "I'll get out if you post me to Pet or location XXX" is usually bullshit." Call 'em on it - "Here's your posting message, here's the release paperwork: choose ONE; you are not special." If they do get out, Oh well ... that makes room for someone to join who actually is interested in doing their job where the CF needs (and officially requires) them to do their job.

People use that line these days exactly because "we" allow them to - and they get away with it now as the rule, not the exception.


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## Infanteer (30 May 2010)

Although quality of life is usually perceived as better in the large cities, I don't think it's a major factor in retention issues.  I don't have access to any statistics, but units in Edmonton hemorrage guys too - all for the same reasons as the small-town garrisons.


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## Kat Stevens (30 May 2010)

But you're ignoring the other half of the cultural shift, Vern.  When I was a young sapper 30 years ago, getting to the mess at opening time on a Saturday or Sunday, and drinking till either we closed the place, or the Jolly Miller opened up (Saturday only, no Sunday beer then!), was both reasonable and acceptable at all rank levels.  If there was nothing else to do but get pissed every night, then by God, getting pissed is what we'd do.  These days there is much less of that mentality among the young troops, and far less tolerance for it with the grownups.  In my younger days, out of a Troop of 30 guys, it was pretty common for at least 15 of them to be in the pub for beers after work.  My last few years in the army, you would hard pressed to get 5 out, they've all got other stuff to do.  Except, y'know, in places where they don't.


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## OldSolduer (30 May 2010)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Look, there's people in here stating that this makes them "get out."
> 
> I'm saying - 22 years ago we had even less to do here ... and we're still in.
> 
> ...


I agree. Refuse a posting and the COS date becomes your release date.


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## SupersonicMax (30 May 2010)

Mid Aged Silverback said:
			
		

> I agree. Refuse a posting and the COS date becomes your release date.



That is a fine retention initiative right there...


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## Fishbone Jones (30 May 2010)

We're getting off track.

*Is the CF going to close Borden*, is the question.

Keep it there. The other tangent has been discussed many time before, with the same results. 

Milnet.ca Staff


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## TCBF (31 May 2010)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Why don’t we start with the bases we absolutely need: ...
> 2.	Army –
> 
> •	Four, for the time being, anyway, major bases/training centres, Edmonton/Wainwright, Petawawa, ValCartier and Gagetown will do.
> Edited to add: and I'm asking, not advocating.



- I cannot see us closing Borden, as it has a training area, and training areas are in short supply.  Our modern take on templating new weapons means some activities take up more space than they once did.   As for moving 1CMBG to wainwright - rumour has it that the water table at Wainwright could not support another 10,000 people.  Perhaps, as the rural prarie continues to de-populate, that may change.

- I would say, close down St.Jean, move the Recruit School to Dundurn (or Borden), and the Leadership Academy and Language School to Borden.

- Cannot move Greenwood to Shearwater: no space, real estate is too expensive, etc.

- We should revisit the 1950s/60s RCAF proposal for our main arctic airbase being at Lake Hazen, on Ellesmere Island (south of Alert).


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## Colin Parkinson (31 May 2010)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> Shilo is (from my experience in training centers) viewed as the less desirable of the two.



You are stunningly polite and your Mom would be proud that you were able to describe Shilo in such political correct terms. I doubt any of the descriptive words I have for that place would survive the censer bots.


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## DCRabbit (2 Jun 2010)

Well, thank you very much everyone for all the replies.. both humurous and serious. It was really interesting to read all the opinions on here. For those that were curious, my brother in law is LCol R_____ D_______. he seems to know some higher ups so I dunno. I guess there's no definitive answer to be had. Mind you, it's well located for personnel.. an hour away from TO.. 20 minutes from Barrie and an hour away from cottage country. And with all the closings in southern Ontario.. there really isn't much left for training area for the region.. just Borden and Meaford. Borden has the infrastructure that Meaford lacks. AFAIK the studies on the feasibility of closing Borden were done before places such as London were mostly mothballed.

Again, thanks for the replies, folks!


(Edited by Moderator to remove name.)


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## bwatch (11 Jun 2010)

krustyrl said:
			
		

> Was just hearing the NDHQ building is being dismantled and moving to Swift Current Sk.      :



It's being moved by Truck


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