# Denmark Turns To The Right



## TCBF (16 Feb 2008)

Heads up: We maybe next.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=1172085


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## Delicron (16 Feb 2008)

I'm not sure what to be more scared of, this Family Security Matters Website, or others like "thinkprogress" or Moveon.org.  They all seem to illustrate the same unwillingness to listen to the other side.  I hate partisan politics and the need to label one another.

That aside, despite the very slanted view of the Danish situation, there are some points there I can agree with.  I never liked the idea that any culture can somehow feel exempt from truly participating with the predominant culture of the country they are in.  Seems hegemonic at worst, inconsiderate at best.  Though, the rest of the article does read like the Xenophobic Manifesto.  :


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## KevinB (16 Feb 2008)

TCBF said:
			
		

> Heads up: We maybe next.



I did a hard right turn in 1980 -- I'm just waiting for Canada to catch up with me...


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## Harris (16 Feb 2008)

Infidel-6 said:
			
		

> I did a hard right turn in 1980 -- I'm just waiting for Canada to catch up with me...



Me too brother.


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## Douke (16 Feb 2008)

This website loses much credibility to me by dipping some facts into alarmist litterature. I found the article on Denmark interesting, if taken with a bit of salt, but after reading the one on Canada, I remained perplex... They can accuse us of anti-Americanism all they want, that is pure anti-Canadianism... As much as I love Americans, impying we would have problems surviving without our bigger brother seems to be more on the fantasms side (even though the lack of security and the loose immigration is really a concern).

Douke


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## ModlrMike (16 Feb 2008)

I agree that there is significant bias on the site, but I was most concerned with this passage:



> Hvilshoj has paid a price for her show of backbone. Perhaps to test her resolve, the leading radical imam in Denmark, Ahmed Abdel Rahman Abu Laban, demanded that the government pay blood money to the family of a Muslim who was murdered in a suburb of Copenhagen, stating that the family’s thirst for revenge could be thwarted for money. When Hvilshoj dismissed his demand, he argued that in Muslim culture the payment of retribution money was common, to which Hvilshoj replied that what is done in a Muslim country is not necessarily what is done in Denmark. The Muslim reply came soon after: her house was torched while she, her husband and children slept.  All managed to escape unharmed, but she and her family were moved to a secret location and she and other ministers were assigned bodyguards for the first time - in a country where such murderous violence was once so scarce.



Regardless of one's left or right leaning politics, this is certainly a scary situation.


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## Greymatters (16 Feb 2008)

ModlrMike said:
			
		

> Regardless of one's left or right leaning politics, this is certainly a scary situation.



Denmark isnt alone in this problem; LEAs in England, France, Netherlands, and Germany have also had increased problems with Muslim-based communities and populations over the past 20 years, and are equally alarmed at the social issues being caused by open immigration policies.  Being much smaller countries, even small incidents have a much more noticable, identifiable, and greater impact on the population as a whole, unlike here in Canada where a problem in a Toronto or Montreal suburb is relatively ignored and unnoticed by most of the country.


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## Kirkhill (16 Feb 2008)

> Perhaps to test her resolve, the leading radical imam in Denmark, Ahmed Abdel Rahman Abu Laban, demanded that the government pay blood money to the family of a Muslim who was murdered in a suburb of Copenhagen, stating that the family’s thirst for revenge could be thwarted for money. When Hvilshoj dismissed his demand, he argued that in Muslim culture the payment of retribution money was common, to which Hvilshoj replied that what is done in a Muslim country is not necessarily what is done in Denmark



Is it just me, or is there something ironic about the Muslims going after the Danes for Geld?



> Dane-geld
> (A.D. 980-1016)
> Rudyard Kipling
> 
> ...



The Danes are not without experience in the field.  Nor are they very far removed from their ancestors.


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## KPR (16 Feb 2008)

As the great Micheal Savage says " Liberalism is a brain disorder ". 

 Better to start getting your act together when you smell smoke,  instead of when the flames are licking your arse. Ireland does not have this problem because they only allow immigrants that understand democracy and want assimilate in to their culture.

Ken


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## CougarKing (16 Feb 2008)

KPR said:
			
		

> As the great Micheal Savage says " Liberalism is a brain disorder ".
> 
> Better to start getting your act together when you smell smoke,  instead of when the flames are licking your arse. Ireland does not have this problem because they only allow immigrants that understand democracy and want assimilate in to their culture.
> 
> Ken



Ken,

And more often than not these immigrants often do something positive for their adoptive culture, as in the case of this Chinese immigrant who became an MLA in Northern Ireland; I am curious as to what your comments are on this headline from last year, IIRC:

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/58508.0.html

And No, I don't necessarily agree with Michael Savage; too much of anything is bad.


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## Gimpy (16 Feb 2008)

KPR said:
			
		

> As the great Micheal Savage says " Liberalism is a brain disorder ".



Would you care to defend how you think a racist, homophobe, and many other things is a "great" person? 

Because Michael Savage also says that "With the [Latino] population that has emerged, since they breed like rabbits, in many cases the whites will become a minority in their own nation... The white people don't breed as often for whatever reason. I guess many homosexuals are involved. That is also part of the grand plan, to push homosexuality to cut down on the white race" and "the girls from Branson [school] can go in and maybe get raped... because they seem to like the excitement of it. There's always the thrill and possibility they'll be raped in a dumpster while giving out a turkey sandwich".

This man is a shame on moderate conservatives, how can anything he says be construed as "great"?

Source: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1632


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## KPR (16 Feb 2008)

Gimpy / Wimpy... keep following the sheep in front of you . It takes courage to be an independent thinker and I have finally had it with political correctness . I'm calling a spade a shovel from now on . I'm not prepared to let my Country go. By the way my son dates a Muslim who we adore but she wants to be a Canadian first ...and fit in.

Ken


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## Gimpy (16 Feb 2008)

KPR said:
			
		

> Gimpy / Wimpy... keep following the sheep in front of you . It takes courage to be an independent thinker and I have finally had it with political correctness . I'm calling a spade a shovel from now on . I'm not prepared to let my Country go. By the way my son dates a Muslim who we adore but she wants to be a Canadian first ...and fit in.
> 
> Ken



No need for name-calling. Independent thinkers should be able to have an intelligent debate without resorting to ad-hominen attacks. Theres a line between political correctness and flat-out racism, bigotry, et al.  Why did you feel the need to throw out that last anecdote anyways? No one accused you of being a racist like Mr. Savage, I was just curious as to why you find him a "great" person.


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## KPR (16 Feb 2008)

He ( Savage ) has one of the sharpest minds I have seen . he is also the best read person I've listen to . When you are at least 50 and raised a couple of kids.... then you'll get it.

Best Regards , Ken


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## KPR (16 Feb 2008)

And more often than not these immigrants often do something positive for their adoptive culture, as in the case of this Chinese immigrant who became an MLA in Northern Ireland; I am curious as to what your comments are on this headline from last year, IIRC:

Cougardaddy .... get out a map of the world,  that's Northern Ireland still part of the UK . Ireland is ERIE the Republic. By the way ...I love the Chinese,  hardest working people around they have made Canada the great Nation that it once was. 

Over.

Regards, Ken


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## Delicron (16 Feb 2008)

> When you are at least 50 and raised a couple of kids.... then you'll get it.



So when I have kids I'll suddenly turn into a homophobic racist?  Pardon me, but I'd like to think that I would be more tolerant than that given that age and responsibility.  Micheal Savage from the quote provided seems as intolerant and misread as any neo-conservative misanthrope.  Conservatism should never be mistaken for xenophobia.

Granted, I believe that there has to be some level of integration no matter what culture they are from.  None of this cultural supremacy stuff, or religious beliefs taken over societal co-operation.  If you want to live here... why do we have to feel bad about living the lives we lead? eg:



> Jews are also threatened and harassed openly by Muslim leaders in Denmark


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## KPR (16 Feb 2008)

Go away a spell and grow up some , is all the advise I can give you. You are a fine example of our modern liberial more tolerant educational system .

This is tiring,  normally I'd rather meet you in the alley .... when done with you .... shake hands . 

Ken


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## 1feral1 (16 Feb 2008)

As least Denmark has seen the light, although too late.

Australia recognises its problems with islam, but again its all too late.

Methinks that website in question though, maybe a wee tad extreme??

Even for me  ;D


Cheers, beers, and what ALES ya,

Wes


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## Delicron (16 Feb 2008)

I'm not sure if that was said to elicit some sort of reaction.  If you want to threaten someone, do it in a forum that will tolerate it.

My education does not mean I immediately ascribe myself as a liberal or anything close to that.  Listen to this again:  Conservatism does not equal Intolerance / Xenophobia.

I am quite conservative when it comes to many things.  But never have I found myself irrationally holding onto some notion of cultural supremacy.  We all have to live here, we better get along.  I do not believe ANYONE is exempt from this, christian, jew, muslim, white, asian, arab:  It doesn't matter.  I see people, not backgrounds.  If a muslim is intolerant to me, then I will be intolerant to him and only him.  If I find myself being intolerant to anyone in any of the forms I just listed, then they have my full permission to be just as awful back.  If I am the bigger person, then I won't have to resort to such racial gamesmanship, hopefully they will come to that realization themselves (and vice versa).  However, I don't hold the view that everyone in this country would be so enlightened (like so many liberals DO tend to think), and I believe there should be some political remedy available so that we can make _absolutely_ sure that we don't just become a country full of isolated and separate cultures.

Don't you dare brush me off with the ad-hominem of "liberal", and then just claim I don't understand.  If you think I have said something out of line, then PROVE IT.

Unfortunately...I can see this topic being locked after this, and I completely understand why.


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## Delicron (16 Feb 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Conservatives are not racist, homophobic bigots.
> Conservatism implies things like sensible economic policy, small government, national security, patriotism, personal responsibility, self reliance and accepting people for who they are regardless of characteristics as long as they can contribute to their country/society and maintain self sufficiency. Not homophobia, blatant racism and ignorance.



+1  This was precisely what I was trying to imply.  Well worded.  I'm 28, but I don't need to be 50 to understand how the world works.


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## CougarKing (16 Feb 2008)

KPR said:
			
		

> And more often than not these immigrants often do something positive for their adoptive culture, as in the case of this Chinese immigrant who became an MLA in Northern Ireland; I am curious as to what your comments are on this headline from last year, IIRC:
> 
> Cougardaddy .... get out a map of the world,  that's Northern Ireland still part of the UK . Ireland is ERIE the Republic. By the way ...I love the Chinese,  hardest working people around they have made Canada the great Nation that it once was.
> 
> ...



 :  Ken, no need to insult someone's intelligence with the "get out the map" routine. Did you even read the article in the link?  Northern Ireland may still be part of the UK, but my only point to you was to emphasize that that even someone from a culture you'd least expect to do well in society like Northern Ireland is making her mark by becoming an MLA there. 

And BTW, if I can recall correctly, EIRE the Republic is what you are talking about, not ERIE (as in to signify the word "erie" or weird/scary  ).  If you're gonna stick it to someone, you might as well get your spelling right.

http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/Eire/eire.html


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Feb 2008)

Alright, everyone back on track and quit feeding someone's personal agenda.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## Delicron (16 Feb 2008)

Good idea Recceguy.

My final thought on the matter is thus:

We all have to live together, cultures and religions, but if you are not here to make life better for EVERYONE, then why are you here at all?  This applies to anyone who lives in Canada, regardless of religion or creed.


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## KPR (16 Feb 2008)

OK you got me on the typographical error . I'm really sorry,  I thought I had Army .ca not Girlguides.ca

I'm finished now girls.

Ken


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Feb 2008)

Yes you are.

Milnet.ca Staff


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## GAP (16 Feb 2008)

Another teenybopper troll..... :


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## TCBF (16 Feb 2008)

Delicron said:
			
		

> ...irrationally holding onto some notion of cultural supremacy.  We all have to live here, we better get along.  I do not believe ANYONE is exempt from this, christian, jew, muslim, white, asian, arab:  It doesn't matter. ...



- Cultural supremacy is NOT racial supremacy.  Our culture has evolved into one which promotes the democratic unity of all races.  Those cultures which promote the destruction of others are inferior to our culture.

Note: their CULTURE may be inferior. Their RACE is NOT inferior.  Cultural imperialism is NOT racism.


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## Delicron (16 Feb 2008)

> Note: their CULTURE may be inferior. Their RACE is NOT inferior.  Cultural imperialism is NOT racism.



Absolutely right.  My years of Post Colonial study has somewhat muddled this for me.  I absolutely believe if Canadian culture does not stop feeling sorry for itself and for the supposed plight of others, then we risk either being assimilated by American culture completely (best case scenario), or overwhelmed by our own disparate immigrant culture (worst case scenario).  

In the most convoluted way possible, this is essentially what I was trying to say... :-\


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## Greymatters (16 Feb 2008)

Who is this Michael Savage he is refering to?  Is the guy Canadian or American?  A search reveals a few prominent characters by that name, but none seem to match the racist comments he is said to be making...


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## Delicron (16 Feb 2008)

I believe it is this man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Savage_(commentator)


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## Greymatters (16 Feb 2008)

Delicron said:
			
		

> I believe it is this man:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Savage_(commentator)



Looking at his profile he doesnt read like your sterotypical racist, or even a conservative.  He reads more like a variation of Howard Stern, doing and saying extremist things as part of publicity and popularity.  His views on subjects seem to see-saw back and forth pretty often.

I can however see why he changed his last name ( formerly 'Weiner' )...


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## a_majoor (16 Feb 2008)

Two books to study WRT the role of culture:

Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise to Western Power by Victor Hanson, and, 

Who Are We: The Challenges to America's National Identity by Samuel P. Huntington


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## Delicron (16 Feb 2008)

I don't think it requires much of a slip of the tongue to say what he has said.  The profile mentions that he comments on illegal immigration and homosexuality.



> " Savage criticizes "big government", homosexuality, and liberalism, accuses the media of "liberal bias,"



Seems like this behaviour is completely within his realm.

And Thucydides, I will definitely look those up.


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## muskrat89 (16 Feb 2008)

He's a syndicated "conservative" radio host. I listen to him now and then - more for entertainment - its hard to take him seriously most of the time.

www.michaelsavage.com


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## muskrat89 (16 Feb 2008)

Regarding illegal immigration - his views aren't too far "out there". Come live on the southern border for awhile. It is NOT a race issue, except for those who make it one.


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## TCBF (16 Feb 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> Agreed. But by 'their' who do you mean?
> 
> Islamic culture? Or Islamic culture perverted by a few wackjobs? Because I'm going to say that ISLAM isn't the problem per se, but rather people's interpretation of it.
> 
> ...



- Where to start?
1. "...openly hate homosexuals..."  I know of NO organized Chistian sect which promotes hatred of homosexuals.  Disagreement is NOT hatred.
2.  "... modern advancements..." in a democracy are often called options.
3.  "...euthanasia.." is a slipery slope. Health care professionals in the Netherlands are applying this solution as a convenience.  Be careful what you wish for.
4. ".. abortion..." some call it murder.  
5. "AIDS.." which was spread by people who openly hate homosexuals right?  Say, what was the name of the Air Canada steward who people blamed for bringing the first case of AIDS into North America anyway (he didn't*), and did he hate homosexuals?  because he sure killed a lot of them, didn't he?  Then the people who ran our medical blood supply started using it to kill off the rest of us... because we can't offend people by screening their donated blood for aids, can we?

*http://www.knbc.com/health/14532988/detail.html


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## a_majoor (16 Feb 2008)

Piper, you might want to check out how Islamic radicals and Wahabbi fundamentalists deal with the issues you raised. (hint, most of their solution involve rather messy capital punishments). 

Of course, they raise the bar by applying their solutions to other issues like reading or publishing dissenting opinions, violating the dress code or free association.

At least in our culture, these and other issues can be raised and debated for now.


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## armyvern (16 Feb 2008)

GAP said:
			
		

> Another teenybopper troll..... :



No tennybopper; and, his artwork is actually very nice (remind me not to support him by casting any hard earned dollars his way though ...) it's just too damn bad his attitude absolutely sucks in a big hard way.


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## Edward Campbell (17 Feb 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> ...
> Let's keep in mind that in our superior western culture, we still condone an organised ideology, lets call it Christianity ...



That's right we *condone* or *tolerate* Christianity along with sundry forms of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Sikhism and so on and so forth. We even give _traditional_ preference to Christianity (where it is the religious affiliation of the majority) in things like public holidays. But: we (most of us) do not _establish_ one church or faith or another and we do not aim to impose one faith on others. We do not, in law, make the public worship of _”false gods”_ a crime.

There is an _ideology_ with deep Judeo-Christian roots: *secular democracy*. But, it does not depend on a Judeo-Christian _culture_ to flourish; it requires only a degree of _*advanced* civilization_ which rests of a firm base of respect for the rule of law and for the equality of all, governors and governed alike, under the law. Secular democracy works quite well in non-Judeo-Christian cultures but it will not work, cannot work in those societies holding cultural values that reject equality and the rule of law.

Secular democracy (and especially the rule of law) appears to be the _sine qua non_ for long term peace and prosperity. (I know, China is, currently, booming and it pays scant heed to either democracy or law but let’s see if China can sustain the boom. If it does I will wager that it turns itself into some sort of law abiding, _government with the consent of the governed_ sort of political construct – not, perhaps, anything like a Western liberal-democracy but, all the same: law abiding and (somehow) democratic.) Established democracies tend to be prosperous well educated; prosperous, educated nations find ways to negotiate their ways around difficulties. Poor and poorly educated nations find war an attractive option – having nothing much to lose, I suppose.


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## Kirkhill (17 Feb 2008)

> Established democracies tend to be prosperous well educated; prosperous, educated nations find ways to negotiate their ways around difficulties. Poor and poorly educated nations find war an attractive option – having nothing much to lose, I suppose.



I think you have hit on a key phrase there Edward: ".....find ways to negotiate their ways around difficulties".  I believe that the key to the survival of democracies is personal choice.  The fact that everyone gets to find their own solutions to any and all problems guarantees that at least one maniac/fool/wiseman will be right and survive.  By contrast, in an authoritarian, monolithic society if one person is wrong, everybody is wrong and everybody dies.  The society fails.

Of course just as there is no ideal democracy in Utopia there is equally no ideal tyranny.

There is always the inability of any government to completely convert its subjects into a coherent mass.  Even when the government of day wishes to round up everyone and head them all of in the same direction they can't.  People fight back.  They ignore the government.  They head for the hills.  They depart the country.  They take their ideas with them.  

If the government's solution to the problem of the day is successful society survives.  If it fails then the folks that left come back to reoccupy the vacuum and society still survives.

I am still strongly of the opinion that there is an inherent link between between the cultures that we define as democracies and those that authoritarians have defined as pirates, brigands and smugglers.


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## Colin Parkinson (19 Feb 2008)

Kirkhil
I think the Danes understand all to well that "Dane geld" only delays the problem, hence the reason they won't deal.

Such an attack on people generally has the opposite effect then the attackers intend. People see the threat for what it is and react, rather than ignoring the problem.


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## 2 Cdo (22 Feb 2008)

Piper said:
			
		

> but I sometimes get the impression that a few people here tend to forget our society's* darker* past that got us where we are today. Just playing devil's advocate/annoying reminder.



I'd say, compared to predominately Islamic countries our "darker" past has served us far better. We routinely get ranked as one of the top countries in the world, whereas Islamic countries seem to be our polar opposite. 

As for this post,





> How did Christians deal with free thinkers, dissenting opinions...I think it was called an enquisition (sp?) involving lots of novel torture and execution methods.


 firstly it was the inquisition, secondly it was some 500 years ago. We can't afford to wait 500 years for Islam to catch up to us.


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## Greymatters (22 Feb 2008)

2 Cdo said:
			
		

> ...firstly it was the inquisition, secondly it was some 500 years ago. We can't afford to wait 500 years for Islam to catch up to us.



Technically the spanish inquisition started about 500 years ago, but it didnt really end until after 1800...

_No one expects (comments about) the Spanish Inquisition!!_

...but I would agree that many countries of Islam have a bit of catching up to do in many respects, not least being support infrastructure and attitudes towards free speech...


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