# Not meeting physical requirments



## Jschamber (7 Feb 2013)

What do you guys think about heading into the forces while I barely meet the physical fitness requirements?

I want to get into shape, but where I live, I find it hard to get the motivation to keep working out on a daily basis.  I live in a small town, ~300 people, and I live an hour away from any city or large town. I have my license yet, but no vehicle, so I can't drive myself there.

I was thinking, if I do a bit of exercise, as I still have a while before I even get in, but go in with doing what I can, then working my ass off while I am there. I know this will put extra stress on me, and, I might be underestimating basic training, but I think I can handle they bit of extra stress.

I just want your guy's opinion on the matter.


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## GeorgeD (7 Feb 2013)

*You don't need a gym to workout, there are a number of programs that do not use anything other than your bodyweight.

*Going to BMQ while meeting only the minimum standard means that you are that much more likely to get injured or just having to sit in pat platoon and wait till you get fit.

*Having just the minimum standard means that the day before the test you could find yourself doing some strenuous activity that just might cause you to fail the EXPRESS TEST.


Research some bodyweight exercises and/or exercises that requires minimal investment in terms of equipment, check out the local high school or Community Centre for a weight room  or improvise with household objects.


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## brihard (7 Feb 2013)

Jschamber said:
			
		

> What do you guys think about heading into the forces while I barely meet the physical fitness requirements?
> 
> I want to get into shape, but where I live, I find it hard to get the motivation to keep working out on a daily basis.  I live in a small town, ~300 people, and I live an hour away from any city or large town. I have my license yet, but no vehicle, so I can't drive myself there.
> 
> ...



The minimum physical standards are a joke, and are deplored by pretty much anyone in uniform I speak to about them. As an NCO I don't take them seriously, and I would be skeptical and scornful of anyone barely scraping by who thinks they are ready.

BMQ is not there to get you in shape. You should be ready physically when you apply. The military is HARD WORK. It's supposed to be. You will be in the profession of killing people and breaking their stuff, when they're trying to do the same to you. Regardless of what trade you apply for that same risk is potentially present, and so that is at least something that influences our training system in the early stages.

Nothing stops you from applying before you are prepared if you're able to scrape the bare minimums, but you will suffer. BMQ is designed for people whoa re in good enough shape to do it, and then there are subsequent courses that could well be considerably harder, particularly if you go army.

How far away you live is irrelevant. There are 168 hours in the week. If you can't fit in getting yourself in decent shape, you have no business trying to join up. We need people who are motivated, not just trying to get by. It's not a matter of being able to handle the stress, but rather of your body being physiologically ready for the demands that will be placed on it.

You will not rise to the occasion, you will sink to the level of your training. And you will be a burden to others in doing so. Get yourself in shape, if you really want this, and then give it a go. If not, please save the time it would take to process you through for someone who takes it seriously.

Yes, this is harsh, but it's completely honest.


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## BeyondTheNow (7 Feb 2013)

In order to avoid any risk of injury while at BMQ, you should aim to beat the basic requirement as much as possible and remain at that standard as much as you can.  It's better to use your time wisely and slowly build up to the standard (and beyond) rather than be ho-hum about it right now and try to get in shape as fast as you can if you're offered employment. I think everyone struggles with motivation every now and then, but you need to rise above it.  The better shape you are in heading into BMQ, the easier you'll be able to manage.


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## jwtg (7 Feb 2013)

I think you should _head into_ the forces ready to exceed the basic physical requirements; that said, many people get through basic and just make the standard.  
The application process can be lengthy, so I wouldn't have any fear about applying now if you're already at the minimums, and using the time between now and the completion of the process to improve your fitness level.

The thing I would worry about, based on what you've said, is the fact that you have a hard time motivating yourself to stay in shape.  Motivating yourself is an act of sheer will.  You'll need to have that in order to be successful in your training.  When you have blisters on your feet, you're tired from carrying your gear, you're soaking wet and freezing and you have to eat the same food 3 times a day, you're going to find it hard to motivate yourself if you can't do it from the comfort of home.

Practice discipline and schedule your time, including fitness time.  Fitness will be your responsibility if you join the CF. 

The best advice I ever got was about getting out of bed in the morning when I was in high school (an act of sheer will for a 16 year old who cared more about socializing than studying).  He said the hardest part of getting up is physically moving out of the comfort of bed, so make it easy: throw the blankets on the floor.  In other words, just get the hell up and stop thinking about it.  Put on some running shoes and get outside.  Might as well run once you're there, right?

You don't want to arrive and be behind the 8 ball already; get there in good shape, don't hold your course-mates up by being out of shape.


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## Journeyman (7 Feb 2013)

He was posting three weeks ago about the "ramifications of failing PT," and he's still looking to scrape by with the slightest effort possible.

Why waste any more time or bandwidth?


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## Ayrsayle (7 Feb 2013)

Brihard said:
			
		

> The minimum physical standards are a joke, and are deplored by pretty much anyone in uniform I speak to about them. As an NCO I don't take them seriously, and I would be skeptical and scornful of anyone barely scraping by who thinks they are ready.
> 
> BMQ is not there to get you in shape. You should be ready physically when you apply. The military is HARD WORK. It's supposed to be. You will be in the profession of killing people and breaking their stuff, when they're trying to do the same to you. Regardless of what trade you apply for that same risk is potentially present, and so that is at least something that influences our training system in the early stages.
> 
> ...



Brihard summed it up well. BMQ is far to short a period to make any massive gains in fitness - you should go into your training able to comfortably meet the requirements. I've seen many people convinced they would be able to meet the standards once they got there (or felt that being able to do the minimum would be enough), only to be booted out on week 8 for failing to meet those objectives. Actual Physical fitness takes time to build up, and effort to maintain - you'd be wasting a lot of time and effort (not to mention tax payer dollars) in administrative effort just to "hope for the best". Don't be that guy.


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## Jschamber (7 Feb 2013)

What do you guys think of P90X for a program?

I picked up the disks last year, and got part way through them, but never actually finished. It kind of disappoints me, because if I would have stuck with it, the three months would be over by now, and I would probably be in a lot better shape.


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## jwtg (7 Feb 2013)

Jschamber said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of P90X for a program?
> 
> I picked up the disks last year, and got part way through them, but never actually finished. It kind of disappoints me, because if I would have stuck with it, the three months would be over by now, and I would probably be in a lot better shape.


It's daily physical fitness, so better than nothing.  I haven't done it, but I imagine you'd want to supplement it with running as well.  A lot of your PT will be running.


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## BeyondTheNow (7 Feb 2013)

I have a gym membership, but I pretty much only use it for swimming laps (occasionally squash and the odd fitness class, mainly yoga).  

I've lost 25lbs since July, went from running dismally to 5k in under 30mins, have vastly improved upon my push-up/sit-up count and am still working on pull-ups, but better than I was....still a work in progress. Anyway, I did this with no weird diet strategy, no trainer, no customized workout regimen, etc. I have some free weights that I use for upper body strengthening, but I've mainly done it all through my own body-resistance/weight exercises and just getting out and running regardless of the weather. (Squats, planks, push-ups, sit-ups/crunches, lunges, jumping jacks, skipping, proper warmup/cool down exercises.) This is what has worked for me, but you don't need anything fancy to get in shape--you just make a decision to do it.  I still have more work to do, but have come a long way. No one else can motivate you, but you.



			
				Jschamber said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of P90X for a program?
> 
> I picked up the disks last year, and got part way through them, but never actually finished. It kind of disappoints me, because if I would have stuck with it, the three months would be over by now, and I would probably be in a lot better shape.


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## Messorius (7 Feb 2013)

Speaking from personal experience, I think it's a horrible idea.  I passed the fitness test with a little to spare(which I thought  was great at the time), and it wasn't even close to enough. I pounded myself to pieces on BMQ and got sent home with one week left for about 4 different itises.  End result, I wasted a crapload of people's time, including my own, and ended up needing physiotherapy.   I'm also a full year behind with my trades training.  All of this could have been avoided if I'd gone at my fitness level as hard as I'm going at it now, and it was a lousy way to learn that lesson.

If you're not fit when you go, it's not something you're going to be able to do when you get there. You'll be in class, you'll be working, you'll be way more tired than you were if you were fit, and if you can't motivate yourself right now to go jog or haul a heavy backpack, will you be able to do it if you're completely exhausted, have cruddy personal morale and nil free time?

Just why aren't you motivated, anyway? What's keeping you down?


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## Jarnhamar (7 Feb 2013)

Jschamber said:
			
		

> What do you guys think about heading into the forces while I barely meet the physical fitness requirements?
> 
> I want to get into shape, but where I live, I find it hard to get the motivation to keep working out on a daily basis.  I live in a small town, ~300 people, and I live an hour away from any city or large town. I have my license yet, but no vehicle, so I can't drive myself there.
> 
> ...



Should you give yourself a boner and run full speed into a brick wall? 

Same answer. 

NO, you shouldn't join. 

Why the hell do people even ask this crap? It's not even funny as a troll attempt


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## brihard (7 Feb 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Should you give yourself a boner and run full speed into a brick wall?
> 
> Same answer.
> 
> ...



Well, that very nearly resulted in me spitting up beverage all over my keyboard. Thanks for that.


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## SentryMAn (7 Feb 2013)

Buy GOOD QUALITY Sneakers
Start a run/walking program
At the end do as many sit ups and pushups(start on your knees if need be).

Repeat.

No gym needed/required.

What would be WAY worse about showing up to BMQ without being physically fit is Being sent home on Day 3-5 after failing the Minimum requirements to stay on course period.  We had 1 guy and 3 woman fail on Day 3 of my course and I felt REALLY bad for the guy since his Dad was a WO with 20 years in.  

If you need more motivation find someone to workout with, make plans to workout.

That and watch the diet/sitting around play video games etc.


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## PMedMoe (7 Feb 2013)

SentryMAn said:
			
		

> We had 1 guy and 3 woman fail on Day 3 of my course and I felt REALLY bad for the guy since his Dad was a WO with 20 years in.



Why feel more sorry for the guy because his father is in the CF?  I'd be thinking more along the lines of "Well, he should have known better...."

Just my  :2c:


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## Smirnoff123 (7 Feb 2013)

And therefore his dad will probably not be to impressed. But no, I wouldnt feel sorry for him.


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## Bzzliteyr (7 Feb 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Should you give yourself a boner and run full speed into a brick wall?
> 
> Same answer.
> 
> ...



Well, that escalated quickly...


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## bgray (7 Mar 2013)

Start the application process, sure, but only if you are going to work on your fitness. Simply do push ups, sit ups and distance running at home. 

 Don't be one of those people who go to basic and live on warrior platoon for months... You will silently be judged... Theres no reason a person cant push off 10 pushups (proper) and 30 sit ups. 

 I went from doing ZERO push ups to 10 within a month prior to basic.



** I don't mean to offend anyone who had to take part in warrior, I'm just suggesting this guy avoid it, like everyone does.


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## TYLERgibson (7 Mar 2013)

bgray said:
			
		

> Start the application process, sure, but only if you are going to work on your fitness. Simply do push ups, sit ups and distance running at home.
> 
> Don't be one of those people who go to basic and live on warrior platoon for months... You will silently be judged... Theres no reason a person cant push off 10 pushups (proper) and 30 sit ups.
> 
> ...


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## MikeL (7 Mar 2013)

Artyman,  did you intend to put your question/reply within bgray's post?


Also,  19 is not the minimum for females.


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## TYLERgibson (7 Mar 2013)

That I did.


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## TYLERgibson (7 Mar 2013)

I meant did not. Sorry again.


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## Eye In The Sky (7 Mar 2013)

Jschamber said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of P90X for a program?
> 
> I picked up the disks last year, and got part way through them, but never actually finished. It kind of disappoints me, because if I would have stuck with it, the three months would be over by now, and I would probably be in a lot better shape.



I've never done P90X, but just last week I was talking with a guy I know in the CF who is a triatholon type.  Type of guy that finds the BFT "a nice little stroll" and the EXPRES test more like a warm-up.

He started doing P90X at home recently and was quite amazed at how it was challenging to him, mentioning the difference he feels in his core, pull-ups, etc.

Like I said, I've never done it but if a guy like him finds some value in doing it...


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## bgray (8 Mar 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Artyman,  did you intend to put your question/reply within bgray's post?
> 
> 
> Also,  19 is not the minimum for females.



 Thank you.

I was just stating that it only took me one month to get to 10 pushups (which was awesome, because I'm a female and the min is 9).

With that being said, once you hit the minimum, don't stop. There are other challenges within the CF you may want to try for and just hitting the bare minimum wont cut it (ex. ironman).

Again, if you aren't even close to the minimun standards for the PT test, don't try and push yourself onto basic training.


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## Smirnoff123 (8 Mar 2013)

If you stick with it and motivate yourself, you can definitely get in shape with p90x.


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## yakherder (8 Mar 2013)

Any fitness progression model, P90X or other, can work.  The key is to do it.

To be more specific, however, P90X and others like it are what I would refer to as cookie cutter programs.  They can be challenging, but there are better ways to reach specific goals than routines designed with no specific agenda in mind.  If having a routine laid out for you helps, though, then by all means go for it.  If you can make it through P90X, cookie cutter or not, you will be much more prepared physically than you are right now.

But if you want to save yourself some money and get in decent shape before basic, such routines are honestly not necessary.  Staying in shape is not some kind of secret that was just laid out in the most recent fitness craze.  I'm willing to bet you already have a pretty good idea of what you need to do, but again, the trick is to do it.  Without having to purchase any fitness programs, here's an example of some simple advice:

- Run.  Even just a couple times per week will help.  Don't worry about a specific type of running (paced distance, interval sprints, etc.) in the beginning, just do it regularly and, each time, make an effort to improve, whether it's in the form of going just a little faster or a little longer than before.  Once you're in the habit of running regularly, then you can worry about figuring out what pace you want to achieve and start incorporating interval sprints as well.  But for now, again, just run.

- Become a pushup addict.  Pushups are one of the most effective exercises that you can do almost anywhere due to the sheer number of muscle groups you can hit with them.  Don't get too scientific about it at first, just make sure you actually do them.  Every morning when you get up, as soon as your feet hit the floor drop and do as many pushups as you can.  At some point during the day, drop and do as many pushups as you can.  Just before you go to bed, drop and do as many pushups as you can.  As with the running, you can get more specific with  your goals later.  For now, just do them.

- Find a sturdy backpack and put heavy stuff in it.  Small homemade sandbags are ideal since you can easily control the weight in the backpack, but even a bunch of books will work.  A couple times a week, throw on this backpack and do a few sets of pushups.  Try to keep enough weight in it that you can't do more than, say, 8.  This will allow you to get a decent strength workout (as opposed to endurance).

- If you get any equipment at all, my suggestions would be an ab wheel and a jump rope.  The wheel is an awesome, and highly underused tool for core workouts, and jumping rope will provide some good cardio while, at the same time, helping you develop coordination.  There's a reason why even the highest level pro boxers still utilize such a simple exercise as jumping rope.

This is all fairly elementary stuff but, if you do it, it will work.  If you want to invest in something else, sure P90X can work, but personally I think you'd be better off with something like this:

http://www.rosstraining.com/nevergymless.html

The amount of knowledge in a book like this will last a lot longer than anything you'll gain from a cookie cutter routine, and it has a few sample workouts after the main content to get you started that are just as challenging if not more so.  It is, in addition, designed specifically to appeal to those who either can't or prefer not to rely on a fully stocked gym for their fitness needs.

In regards to the original question as to whether or not you should go not being in shape...

I'm gonna make what is probably an unpopular statement and say that basic training is not that demanding physically.  It might seem like it if all you've ever done in your life is go to school and play video games.  Sure, you'll suffer more if you're not in shape, but there is nothing in basic training you can't will your way through, and that's the key right there... willpower.  When I went to basic in the U.S., however, there was one critical difference.  Once we get to basic, we're not allowed to just walk away.  Thus, those who weren't in shape ended up making it through one way or another.  In Canada, you have the option to give up.  And though you can theoretically make it through with willpower whether you're in shape or not, I'm gonna make the assumption that if you can't bring yourself to do the running and the pushups on your own time, when they start throwing physical and psychological challenges at you in basic there's a pretty good chance, going off the statistics I've seen anyway, that you're gonna opt to get up and walk away from it.


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## MedTech Hopeful (27 Mar 2013)

bgray said:
			
		

> Start the application process, sure, but only if you are going to work on your fitness. Simply do push ups, sit ups and distance running at home.
> 
> Don't be one of those people who go to basic and live on warrior platoon for months... You will silently be judged... Theres no reason a person cant push off 10 pushups (proper) and 30 sit ups.
> 
> ...



LOL! One isn't "silently" judged.  Those on Warrior (I am there.....took 38 days to get my "proper" push-ups, and now I'm waiting for a new platoon to arrive) are judged on a daily/very loud basis.  We are judged by both staff and fellow candidates.  So, if you don't want to throw your kit into a large black garbage bag and wear a big ol' red W on your chest for a weeks/moths, then work your ass off and prepare!!!


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## Jarnhamar (27 Mar 2013)

(Not picking on you Medtechhopefull, I'm glad you're on your way to your next platoon)

Since budget is such an issue I wonder just how much money is spent on "warrior platoon".

Paying soldiers for months that they are on it marking time.
The money for 3 meals a day.
The money spent on employing instructors to supervise them.
Food for instructors.
Money spent medical side.



Would it not save the CF a LOT of money to simply set a higher standard for people to join the CF and once they are in be able to concentrate on training soldiers?


Isn't it basically like letting someone who failed the CFAT test join and telling  them that we will house feed clothe and employ them while they study books to make themselves smarter and once they pass the basic requirements then we start training them.


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## brihard (27 Mar 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> (Not picking on you Medtechhopefull, I'm glad you're on your way to your next platoon)
> 
> Since budget is such an issue I wonder just how much money is spent on "warrior platoon".
> 
> ...



No kidding. "You aren't fit enough to join the armed forces. So we'll pay you for up to three months until you get there".

No, sorry, B.S. People in the regs should be tested before enrolement just like in the reserves, and those not in good enough shape should be told 'here's what you need to work on; come back when you can do it' and sent packing.


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## 2ndChoiceName (27 Mar 2013)

I'm in a similar boat. I passed the physical evaluation with relative ease, but barely passed the grip strength, and was told by the evaluator guy to work on my strength (I'm pretty skinny and have decent cardio, but I'm skin and bones). I quickly found out you don't need to have a gym, a couple of dumb bells and a kettlebell were all I needed, and I work out in my basement. I started working out every other day, it was hard at first but now I enjoy it. If you can, try and get friends to work out with you, it helps a lot if you have people to do it with. Literally, just take everyone else's advice, and just do it (Nike). This is from someone who before this had never worked out a day in his life.


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## MedTech Hopeful (27 Mar 2013)

I agree completely, Brihard!  We (yes that includes me) should have been tested even before the interview process.  Maybe one day they will figure out that it's a waste of funding not to test possible candidates prior to sending them off to basic.

And maybe those who are sitting on PAR (for 6-8 weeks at a time) and actually WANT to go home should be released in a more timely manner.  That could save a few bucks too.


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (27 Mar 2013)

Im in the same boat you are. I have BMQ in 17 days and Im pretty much screwed. The application process for the forces went much quicker than I though and I may have overestimated my own abilities. If you don't pass the express test right away you get sent to warrior preparation company and youre tested after 30 days, 60 days, and 90 days. After any of which if you then pass the express test youre assigned to the next BMQ, and after 90 if you still cant pass youre released from the forces. If you cant do at least a few push ups or situps youre dismissed outright and it could be a long time before you could re-enlist in the forces.

Good news is though is that you can significantly increase the number of push ups and situps you can do in a somewhat short period of time by doing exercises at home. For sit ups, stick your feet under the coach or bookcase (or any other piece of furniture you can secure your feet under) and work from there. For push ups, put your back back at say 35-45 degrees, spread your arms on the wall and push (like stand up push ups), and put your feet back further the more push-ups you do. Also doing knee push ups helps. Essentially, just go on your knees and do push ups. Its what Im doing and the Medic at the recruiting center recommended the wall push ups for me, so they must be a half decent exercise at least


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## MedTech Hopeful (27 Mar 2013)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Im in the same boat you are. I have BMQ in 17 days and Im pretty much screwed. The application process for the forces went much quicker than I though and I may have overestimated my own abilities. If you don't pass the express test right away you get sent to warrior preparation company and youre tested after 30 days, 60 days, and 90 days. After any of which if you then pass the express test youre assigned to the next BMQ, and after 90 if you still cant pass youre released from the forces. If you cant do at least a few push ups or situps youre dismissed outright and it could be a long time before you could re-enlist in the forces.
> 
> Good news is though is that you can significantly increase the number of push ups and situps you can do in a somewhat short period of time by doing exercises at home. For sit ups, stick your feet under the coach or bookcase (or any other piece of furniture you can secure your feet under) and work from there. For push ups, put your back back at say 35-45 degrees, spread your arms on the wall and push (like stand up push ups), and put your feet back further the more push-ups you do. Also doing knee push ups helps. Essentially, just go on your knees and do push ups. Its what Im doing and the Medic at the recruiting center recommended the wall push ups for me, so they must be a half decent exercise at least



If you get sent to WFT, you will have a practice test every Monday.  If you reach the required amt on the beep test and/or push-ups, then you will be retested on the Wednesday, and if you are successful at all 4 components then you will be loaded on the next platoon.


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (27 Mar 2013)

MedTech Hopeful said:
			
		

> If you get sent to WFT, you will have a practice test every Monday.  If you reach the required amt on the beep test and/or push-ups, then you will be retested on the Wednesday, and if you are successful at all 4 components then you will be loaded on the next platoon.



Thanks. Im just going by what the staff at the CF recruiting center told me


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## brihard (27 Mar 2013)

MedTech Hopeful said:
			
		

> If you get sent to WFT, you will have a practice test every Monday.  If you reach the required amt on the beep test and/or push-ups, then you will be retested on the Wednesday, and if you are successful at all 4 components then you will be loaded on the next platoon.



Thanks, I wondered how that worked.


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## Jarnhamar (27 Mar 2013)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Also doing knee push ups helps. Essentially, just go on your knees and do push ups.



I'm not sure if I read this right but honestly man in my opinion a 24 year old male who needs to do pushups on his knees should not have been course loaded on BMQ.

Good on you for wanting to serve. It takes humility to admit that, I can only hope potential CF members read posts like yours and learn from it but I really wonder the mindset when someone with that kind of level of fitness decides to join and what they think the military is about. Come on guys and girls.

My suggestion is don't waste your time on knee pushups. Do regular push ups.  



Do they let new recruits on warrior platoon have access to the gym right away?


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (27 Mar 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if I read this right but honestly man in my opinion a 24 year old male who needs to do pushups on his knees should not have been course loaded on BMQ.
> 
> Good on you for wanting to serve. It takes humility to admit that, I can only hope potential CF members read posts like yours and learn from it but I really wonder the mindset when someone with that kind of level of fitness decides to join and what they think the military is about. Come on guys and girls.
> 
> ...



I can do regular push ups, but I supplement regular push ups with knee push ups sometimes. Theyre not just for those having difficulties. For the most part I mentioned them as a useful exercise for at home to the guy who started this thread.

And yeh, all recruits get access tro gym equipment


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## Jarnhamar (27 Mar 2013)

Phew.

I still disagree with the knee pushups but at least you can do real ones heh.


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## Mom150 (3 Apr 2013)

My daughter went to cflrs and failed her express test for push ups.  She didn't give up.  She went to warrior platoon for almost 90 days and passed.  She went to platoon.  She absolutely loved everything about it and did very well.  Her pushups improved but only to 7 counted.  She retested in week 10 and failed again.  Having used up her time in warrior, she will now have to go home.  Does anyone else think this is a little absurd?  The military has invested so much time and money on her and now they just release her when she is so close?  Especially when they know that in the next year this test will no longer exist??  It just seems like such a waste of effort.  She really did excel otherwise.  She is strong, no problems with the 13k ruck march or obstacle course.  Is it possible that pushups aren't really a good measure of strength?  The army must think so or they wouldn't be changing the express test.  Anyway. That's just my thoughts.


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## PuckChaser (3 Apr 2013)

I actually think its absurd your daughter even got a chance to stay or even a flight to St. Jean without passing the minimum fitness standards. The CF can afford to be selective now, and isn't a place you should be trying to get people in shape. They should show up with that minimum level of fitness we require, and not be paid taxpayer's dollars to work out for 3 months because for whatever reason they showed up unprepared. Pushups are a level of fitness, and work fine. Take this from a person who is built to run, and before I actually started training properly pushups were a challenge. The 13k ruck is an exercise on turning your brain off and walking.  :2c:


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## jwtg (3 Apr 2013)

Mom150 said:
			
		

> Is it possible that pushups aren't really a good measure of strength?  The army must think so or they wouldn't be changing the express test.  Anyway. That's just my thoughts.


I'm with PuckChaser for the most part.  The fitness standards are freely available on the internet, and everyone has every opportunity to know what level of fitness they require before joining.  Onus is on them to reach (or exceed) that standard before they get there- besides, the EXPRES test is absurdly easy, and most girls can reach the required amount of push ups if they train properly for long enough before arriving.

That being said, I agree with your last statement.  I think push-ups are kind of a dumb measurement of strength; at best, they're strength relative to body weight (impeded somewhat by arm length).

New FORCE test was fun because everyone had to lift/carry/drag the same weight, no matter their height/weight/strength.


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## Mom150 (3 Apr 2013)

I definitely see where you are coming from.  She thought she was prepared.  What should she have done once she was there?  She wasn't going to quit.  All I am saying is since they have already invested so much (not that I think the system is right) I think the test should be performed before basic training, they should evaluate what she has accomplished and how close she is. They could spend very little more to get her there rather than throw away what's already been spent.  Again, I realize what you are saying.


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## AgentSmith (3 Apr 2013)

Mom150 said:
			
		

> I definitely see where you are coming from.  She thought she was prepared.  What should she have done once she was there?  She wasn't going to quit.  All I am saying is since they have already invested so much (not that I think the system is right) I think the test should be performed before basic training, they should evaluate what she has accomplished and how close she is. They could spend very little more to get her there rather than throw away what's already been spent.  Again, I realize what you are saying.



She obviously thought wrong then. Like others have said, the standards are out there the internet so she should have been practicing well before she arrived for BMQ.


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## BeyondTheNow (3 Apr 2013)

Mom150 said:
			
		

> My daughter went to cflrs and failed her express test for push ups.  She didn't give up.  She went to warrior platoon for almost 90 days and passed.  She went to platoon.  She absolutely loved everything about it and did very well.  Her pushups improved but only to 7 counted.  She retested in week 10 and failed again.  Having used up her time in warrior, she will now have to go home.  Does anyone else think this is a little absurd?  The military has invested so much time and money on her and now they just release her when she is so close?  Especially when they know that in the next year this test will no longer exist??  It just seems like such a waste of effort.  She really did excel otherwise.  She is strong, no problems with the 13k ruck march or obstacle course.  Is it possible that pushups aren't really a good measure of strength?  The army must think so or they wouldn't be changing the express test.  Anyway. That's just my thoughts.



While I understand your concern over your daughter's loss and need to protect her well-being, I feel very strongly that something is incredibly wrong with her not being able to have met the minimum 9 push-up requirement initially.  While push-ups in general can be difficult for women, even moreso when hands/thumbs are to be under their shoulders, being able to achieve 9 is far from an impossible task and she knew what she had to achieve well in advance of arriving to the 'physical' stage.  I am of the opinion that the military went above and beyond to try and help her achieve _all_ of the elements required.

As a 34yr. old, fairly petite woman, push-ups were the most difficult aspect for me to improve upon, but I did it. I did/continue to do push-ups every day, as well as other upper-body strength training to keep my standards and count up.  In my opinion, if she needed extra time to reach the standard in that specific area, then she should have prepared adequately.

I'm sure the disappointment for her of having failed is extremely disheartening--both for you and she. But if it's something she truly wants, then this will have been an extremely important and eye-opening experience/lesson that will help prepare her if she tries again.


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## Jarnhamar (3 Apr 2013)

If your daughter was sick and needed surgery would you be okay with a doctor operating on her who didn't pass but tried really hardand improved a lot and almost passed?

It sucks for your daughter but we need to draw a line somewhere. 

The fact is the Canadian tax payers kindly paid your daughter for 3 months salary (with  housing and food) to do 9 pushups and she couldn't.  How long should the tax payers pay her to eat and work out. 6 months, a year?

Your daughter can always reapply after the new test is in.


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## brihard (3 Apr 2013)

Mom150 said:
			
		

> My daughter went to cflrs and failed her express test for push ups.  She didn't give up.  She went to warrior platoon for almost 90 days and passed.  She went to platoon.  She absolutely loved everything about it and did very well.  Her pushups improved but only to 7 counted.  She retested in week 10 and failed again.  Having used up her time in warrior, she will now have to go home.  Does anyone else think this is a little absurd?  The military has invested so much time and money on her and now they just release her when she is so close?  Especially when they know that in the next year this test will no longer exist??  It just seems like such a waste of effort.  She really did excel otherwise.  She is strong, no problems with the 13k ruck march or obstacle course.  Is it possible that pushups aren't really a good measure of strength?  The army must think so or they wouldn't be changing the express test.  Anyway. That's just my thoughts.



Look, this is going to be harsh, but I'll give you an honest answer. I believe your daughter failed herself for not preparing herself adequately, however she was subsequently failed by the system because they nonetheless allowed her to continue and to get her hopes up.

The physical requirements are NOT hard. They're extremely low in fact. I would say embarrassingly so. Every member of the Canadian military is expected to be able to do certain physical tasks, and some are hard. There is no trade that will never necessarily be subject to physical labour. Any trade could potentially have to literally fight for their life, though of course for most this is exceptionally rare. Your daughter's lack of physical strength presents an unjustifiable risk to herself and to her buddies.

I fully agree that physical testing should be done before they can even enrol. It is for the reserves. It's embarrassing that for the regular force it is not. The concept of a military not requiring certain physical performance before getting in blows my mind, but there we have it.

Your daughter knows the standards now. IF she really wants it, I highly encourage her to continue working on her physical fitness and to get to where she needs to be, and then to reapply.


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## Mom150 (3 Apr 2013)

The thing is, knowing what she knows now, she would have waited.  It all happened pretty fast for her.  She feels awful about wasting tax payers dollars.  Unlike a doctor, not being able to perform 2 more perfect pushups doesn't really make her that much less of a soldier.  In my opinion anyway.  I get that the line needs to be drawn too.  Also though, they will continue to pay her for probably another month before they release her when she could be actually accomplishing the damn push ups in that time!


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## PuckChaser (4 Apr 2013)

Mom150 said:
			
		

> Unlike a doctor, not being able to perform 2 more perfect pushups doesn't really make her that much less of a soldier.  In my opinion anyway.



Unless you're a solider yourself, I don't think you're able to adequately comment on what we require to do as a member of the CF. A lot of people here will speak ill of the EXPRES test and pushups as a measure of strength, but each of those same pers applied themselves and passed the test as is, without complaint. When I joined the CF, you needed an EXPRES test before you were enrolled. I failed for pushups because I took it for granted that I was in shape. Worked out and passed a year later. Its good that your daughter feels bad for wasting people's money and time. Now she just needs to apply herself to getting fit like she was supposed to do on Warrior Platoon in the first place. There's no secrets to the EXPRES test, its a minimum standard and unless she has a physiological limitation or disability its a very attainable standard with the right kind of mental focus.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Apr 2013)

This story is a great example on why the Canadian forces should have strict PT testing.
IF you can't make the standard BEFORE you join then too bad, hit the gym until you can pass then apply.


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## Mom150 (4 Apr 2013)

A very hard lesson learned, that's for sure!  No one wants to spend 6 months at cflrs, unless you can see your reward but when you lose that, it's pretty heartbreaking.  Yeah, I know she shouldn't have been in that predicament in the first place but shit happened.  That's all.  She failed.  It is harsh, it just sucks because she wanted it soo badly and she is awesome!


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## brihard (4 Apr 2013)

Mom150 said:
			
		

> A very hard lesson learned, that's for sure!  No one wants to spend 6 months at cflrs, unless you can see your reward but when you lose that, it's pretty heartbreaking.  Yeah, I know she shouldn't have been in that predicament in the first place but crap happened.  That's all.  She failed.  It is harsh, it just sucks because she wanted it soo badly and she is awesome!



Good attitude. I hope she takes after you, and also that she earns herself another kick at the cat and is sucessful.


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## Mom150 (4 Apr 2013)

You were fortunate that the test happened before enrolling.  It seems that she was the same as you, assumed that she was in good shape.  Unfortunately, for her, she was caught up in not wanting to quit or give up.  She would have done the same thing you did, went away and trained on her own and came back when she could pass.  She's an awesome kid.  You must agree with some of the trap that she got caught up in.


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## BeyondTheNow (4 Apr 2013)

Mom150 said:
			
		

> ...You must agree with some of the trap that she got caught up in.



But there is no trap. One knows whether they can do what's required or not before even getting to that stage.  :-\


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (5 Apr 2013)

Knowing me Ill likely get stuck in warriors platoon.


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## AgentSmith (5 Apr 2013)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Knowing me Ill likely get stuck in warriors platoon.



With that kind of attitude, don't go to basic until you know 100% that you can pass the fitness test. Don't join planning to go to Warrior platoon.


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## Jarnhamar (5 Apr 2013)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Knowing me Ill likely get stuck in warriors platoon.



What did you think the military would be like?  With respect  if your fitness is that horrible maybe you should put your decision to join the military on hold and let someone better prepared and more able take your place.


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## Eye In The Sky (6 Apr 2013)

2 things need to happen, IMO.

1.  Reinstate the enrollment PT test for Reg Force applicants.

2.  Rename the so-called "Warrior Platoon" to something more realistic while waiting for #1 to happen.


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## Davidson22 (6 Apr 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 2 things need to happen, IMO.
> 
> 1.  Reinstate the enrollment PT test for Reg Force applicants.
> 
> 2.  Rename the so-called "Warrior Platoon" to something more realistic while waiting for #1 to happen.



I agree that you should be tested before being accepted and sent to basic training. It is a very easy test, I passed it when I had not trained for it at all, though I payed for it later. 

When did they change the name to warrior platoon? That doesn't seem fitting and it's kinda cheesy. I am sure it used to be called RFT for recruit fitness training.

To those who think about joining without preparing properly, i did it my first time in. Because of that I got injured and spent over two months on PAT platoon waiting to heal. I had to watch my platoon graduate without me and that really sucked. I ended up putting in my vr to so I could go back when I was truly prepared. Now i am finally going back but everyone I went to bmq with is now a cpl and I'm just starting back where I was 5 years ago. There is nothing I regret more than not preparing myself.


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## Jarnhamar (6 Apr 2013)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> 2 things need to happen, IMO.
> 
> 1.  Reinstate the enrollment PT test for Reg Force applicants.
> 
> 2.  Rename the so-called "Warrior Platoon" to something more realistic while waiting for #1 to happen.



Theoretical: Give everyone a month to pass the test. Those that don't are released for being unfit for service.
Practical: "injuries" will drastically increase causing members to avoid being released.


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (7 Apr 2013)

When I did my processing the medic had me do a few push-ups. Thats about the only real physical task they had me do before St.Jean.

Being prepared in the long run is definitely a good thing, obviously. Ive always been a walker/jogger, but never long distance (usually don't run for anymore than a quarter KM). Now that Im practicing running 2.5+ km Im getting shin splints. Its ironic, I felt I would do well with running (even my mother said ignore the running youre a good runner, focus on push-ups) and struggle with push-ups/sit-ups, but I think I can do the required push-ups/situps without to much problem, but its long distance running that may become an issue.


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (7 Apr 2013)

Well, thats the question, will I get sent to warriors platoon if I struggle with chin-ups ?


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## MikeL (7 Apr 2013)

Chin ups are not part of the express test.  I've seen your other posts regarding PT,  if you are so concerned regarding your fitness level perhaps you shouldn't have accepted your offer. IMO you should already be at a decent level of physical fitness before leaving for BMQ,  especially for someone who wants Combat Arms like yourself. 

You probably could have asked this question in the other PT thread you are active in also.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/109357/post-1221589/topicseen.html#msg1221589


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## MikeL (7 Apr 2013)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> but never long distance (usually don't run for anymore than a quarter KM)......I felt I would do well with running (even my mother said ignore the running youre a good runner,



You didn't run any more then 250m and you thought you were a good runner?  And your mom told you not do worry about running... maybe mom shouldn't be your go too for fitness regarding the Military.

If you never ran more then 250m at a time and are having issues with now running 2.5kms... well you have good reason to worry about running long distances as anything under 5kms is pretty short.  As well you think you can do the required pushups and situps, well I'd hope so as the minimum is pretty low.  Do you know the proper form for the push ups and sit ups? 

IMO you should have a long honest look at your self and your physical abilities at this point; as you don't have much time left until you leave for BMQ.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Apr 2013)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> When I did my processing the medic had me do a few push-ups. Thats about the only real physical task they had me do before St.Jean.
> 
> Being prepared in the long run is definitely a good thing, obviously. Ive always been a walker/jogger, but never long distance (usually don't run for anymore than a quarter KM). Now that Im practicing running 2.5+ km Im getting shin splints. Its ironic, I felt I would do well with running (even my mother said ignore the running youre a good runner, focus on push-ups) and struggle with push-ups/sit-ups, but I think I can do the required push-ups/situps without to much problem, but its long distance running that may become an issue.



Keep in mind there is a difference between sore legs/shins from not being fit or from not being used to jogging and actual shin splints.



What *IS* the actual physical fitness requirement for someone (say 20 year old male) at BMQ. 19 push ups, situps, is there an actual running portion?


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## MikeL (7 Apr 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> What *IS* the actual physical fitness requirement for someone (say 20 year old male) at BMQ. 19 push ups, situps, is there an actual running portion?



Level 6 on the 20m shuttle run

Here is the minimum standards for the express test and threshold fitness test
http://www.cflrs.forces.gc.ca/menu/ps/rec/ec-pf/index-eng.asp


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (7 Apr 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> You didn't run any more then 250m and you thought you were a good runner?  And your mom told you not do worry about running... maybe mom shouldn't be your go too for fitness regarding the Military.
> 
> If you never ran more then 250m at a time and are having issues with now running 2.5kms... well you have good reason to worry about running long distances as anything under 5kms is pretty short.  As well you think you can do the required pushups and situps, well I'd hope so as the minimum is pretty low.  Do you know the proper form for the push ups and sit ups?
> 
> IMO you should have a long honest look at your self and your physical abilities at this point; as you don't have much time left until you leave for BMQ.



Im talking about hauling arse, running as fast as you can.  Short distance running. I can "lightly jog" and still pass within the minimum requirements of the express test. Im just worried that my lower legs may not be able to handle it. Ive been running for a while, and practicing running for the CF for some time, and only now am I getting this problem.


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (7 Apr 2013)

ObedientiaZelum said:
			
		

> Keep in mind there is a difference between sore legs/shins from not being fit or from not being used to jogging and actual shin splints.
> 
> 
> 
> What *IS* the actual physical fitness requirement for someone (say 20 year old male) at BMQ. 19 push ups, situps, is there an actual running portion?



If you're accustomed to running you know the difference. Shin splints are like shooting sharp pains up your shin. Almost feels like its the actual shin bone.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (7 Apr 2013)

-Skeletor- said:
			
		

> Chin ups are not part of the express test.  I've seen your other posts regarding PT,  if you are so concerned regarding your fitness level perhaps you shouldn't have accepted your offer. IMO you should already be at a decent level of physical fitness before leaving for BMQ,  especially for someone who wants Combat Arms like yourself.
> 
> You probably could have asked this question in the other PT thread you are active in also.
> http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/109357/post-1221589/topicseen.html#msg1221589



..and merged.


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## MikeL (7 Apr 2013)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Im talking about hauling arse, running as fast as you can.  Short distance running.



I believe the word you are looking for is _*sprinting*_




			
				Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> I can "lightly jog" and still pass within the minimum requirements of the express test.


Not sure what you mean by "lightly jog".  Also do you know you can reach level 6 on the express test,  or just assuming?  



			
				Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> Im just worried that my lower legs may not be able to handle it. Ive been running for a while, and practicing running for the CF for some time, and only now am I getting this problem.



Perhaps you are running to much/overexerting yourself.  Are you taking breaks from running,  ie not running everyday?  As for running on course I would recommend being able to run more then the 2.5km runs you can currently able to do before going to BMQ.  IMO,  being able to run 5kms at a 5min per km pace is good for BMQ,  if you can run longer/faster even better.


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## Jarnhamar (7 Apr 2013)

Thanks.

Proud_Newfoundlander.
Do a search online for the beep test (20MSR) mp3 and download it. Put it on an ipod or even car stereo.  Measure out 20 meters or whatever it is on a road somewhere and practice the test. See how high you can get to. If you can suck ass and get up to 6 or 6 and a half you should be good. If you blow an o-ring at like 2 or 3 then you're not ready.

Put all the worrying hand ringing and guessing to rest, take a night and go test yourself and you'll have your answers.


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## Proud_Newfoundlander (8 Apr 2013)

When you say 2,3, or 6 do you mean those as levels of the Beep test (sry, Im very unfamiliar with the beep test)


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## Jarnhamar (8 Apr 2013)

Here's the beep test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hz27yLH30uY


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## Eye In The Sky (8 Apr 2013)

Unless things have changed, you WILL run around the outside of the CFLRS garrison and I can promise you it will not just be "a light jog" and it is definitely more than 250m.  You will not set your own pace.  Your job will be to keep up to the pace set.  You will be stopping to do pushups, situps, etc at intervals on this run.

On top of this 'morning run' PT, there will be:

- PT classes
- going up and down the stairs to get to your room(elevator use is prohibited for recruits).  The Mega has 14 or so floors.  Do the math.
- drill classes (seriously)
- obstacle course
- you march everywhere

Starting to see why 'able to do more than the minimums in the EXPRES' doesn't cut it?  EXPRES min's don't give an ability to perform the required training...and you CAN fail BMQ even if you pass the EXPRES.


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## Pryce (10 Apr 2013)

Proud_Newfoundlander said:
			
		

> When you say 2,3, or 6 do you mean those as levels of the Beep test (sry, Im very unfamiliar with the beep test)



The beep test sucks. I've always found it harder than actually running the 2.4km.


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## brihard (10 Apr 2013)

Bomb Disposal Bob said:
			
		

> The beep test sucks. I've always found it harder than actually running the 2.4km.



Sure, but they test different things. Beep test is supposed to be a pretty decent predictor of VO2 max since you go to failure.


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## dimsum (11 Apr 2013)

Bomb Disposal Bob said:
			
		

> The beep test sucks. I've always found it harder than actually running the 2.4km.



That's kind of the point.  The beep test gets tougher the longer you go, while in the 2.4 you either keep the same pace or slow down as you reach the end.  I can't remember what the CAF standard for the 2.4 was, but in the RAAF the 2.4 pace was roughly the same as a Level 5-6 in the CAF beep test.


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## SentryMAn (11 Apr 2013)

The good thing about the beep test is it is a sprint A-B and isn't a constant speed with quick turns of 180 degrees.  You do not get that with a steady state run.

The beep test is a joke, I managed an exempt without breaking a sweat.  You do not go to failure, you go until exemption, after that you are just a glory hound.
;-)


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## Eye In The Sky (11 Apr 2013)

Disagree.  There is nothing wrong with performing to 100%.

I guess anyone who tried to finish the BFT before 'the max allotted time' was a gloryhound or someone who tried to better the CF Ironman time?

Lets not even begin to talk about those gloryhounds who place 1st on courses, etc...


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## SentryMAn (11 Apr 2013)

I think you took my comment the wrong way.

Comparing the Beep test to the military Ironman(or any Ironman) is up there with saying the round orange thing is in fact an apple.

Is there a special prize for placing first on the Beep test other then hearing the clapping from fellow recruits?

My point, and as dull as it is, was simply to state there is no benefit once you get exempt status to your life in the military.  If there is a difference in some way between hitting a Lvl 13 and hitting a lvl 14 to your career in the military I must have missed that part.  Please let me know if I am out in left field.


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## Jester_TG (12 Apr 2013)

Jschamber said:
			
		

> What do you guys think about heading into the forces while I barely meet the physical fitness requirements?
> 
> I want to get into shape, but where I live, I find it hard to get the motivation to keep working out on a daily basis.  I live in a small town, ~300 people, and I live an hour away from any city or large town. I have my license yet, but no vehicle, so I can't drive myself there.
> 
> ...



To the OP -You don't need a car or equipment to run or do push-ups. Those are the 2 things on the expres test people have issues with.

So just run run run, and the days in between work on pushups


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## vancouverite (10 Aug 2013)

Jschamber said:
			
		

> What do you guys think about heading into the forces while I barely meet the physical fitness requirements?
> 
> I want to get into shape, but where I live, I find it hard to get the motivation to keep working out on a daily basis.  I live in a small town, ~300 people, and I live an hour away from any city or large town. I have my license yet, but no vehicle, so I can't drive myself there.
> 
> ...



Do your 2.4 up to 5km run. Even its just running around your block three times per week.
Do your hand grips three times per week.
do the min push ups for your age three times per week.
do the min sit ups for your age three times per week.
run up and down two stairs on a constant basic for 15 min per day. 
Do all these for a min of three mths before trying to get in. The application process is like 8 mths long.

Those will get you close to min required. If you can't get those done, then don't waste the CF time, $$ and effect.


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