# Question for any RMS types out there...[Div Notes}



## 284_226 (12 Jan 2007)

This has a naval spin on it, so I placed it here...

Any RMS Clerks out there that can tell me whether or not Divisional Notes are allowed to be placed on a member's Unit Personnel File?

A-PM-245-001/FP-001 Chap 10 deals with what is and isn't allowed to be placed on a UPF.  It states that "conduct and performance related documentation" *may* be placed on a UPF...but it doesn't specifically exclude Div Notes.

However, the "Guide to the Divisional System" (issued on authority of the CMS) states that "Div Notes are to be retained by the Divisional Officer.  If the member (to whom the Div Notes pertain) is posted, the records are to be sealed, dated, and sent with the UPR to the new unit.  These records are to be opened only with the new Commanding Officers approval.  If a member is posted outside CMS, the Div Notes will remain in the Formation".  It goes on to say that Div Notes are to be retained for 5 years, and then destroyed.

So, if I'm reading that correctly, the Div Notes are sent with the UPF on posting, but aren't actually on the UPF - and if the member leaves the navy, the Div Notes stay with the navy.  Can anyone tell me what's done in day-to-day practice?

If there are any other references that might be useful, I'd appreciate a point in the right direction.  I'd like to be able to hit the ground running on Monday morning to get an authoritative answer.  Thanks...


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## navymich (12 Jan 2007)

Sorry, I don't have a reference on this, but the following is what I have always done, and what I have seen done.  I, as the supervisor, held the member's div notes.  At the end of each FY after PERs were completed, I put them in an envelope, sealed it and marked on it the member's particulars, div notes from 1 Apr XX to 31 Mar XX and kept them in my div note binder.  When the member transferred from the unit, they were included in the file sent to the gaining unit, still sealed, to be destroyed after the 5 years.


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## 284_226 (13 Jan 2007)

Yup, that jibes with what I did as a supervisor, and what I saw done.  I'm more concerned about how the UPF is handled, and whether the Div Notes should be on there.  I was always told that Div Notes had no place on the Pers File, and it appears that someone did an end run by typing up a service letter between units, gave it a subject line of "Extract of Div Notes", and placed in on a UPF.  

Not nice at all...


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

It is my understanding that at the end FY, the Div notes go to the Div Officer vice the members file. Anything that was pertinent on them should have been earmarked to the annual PER and is not applicable for the next PER period.

WRT to "conduct and performance related documentation" I have always been advised that this pertains to official documentation of conduct and performance such as verbal, recorded warnings or C&P (retained on Pers file for career); and the originals of CFPAS quarterlies (only retained for the FY to which they are applicable) and which are all transferred to any gaining Unit if member is posted etc. At end FY, CFPAS feedback session paperwork is to be removed from members file as it is not applicable to the next FY.

Most places though, prefer to keep div notes/CFPAS documentation on the members UER instead of the members pers file. In any case, it should all be removed at end FY, as it is now irrelevant.


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## 284_226 (13 Jan 2007)

Come to think of it, you're right Armyvern...the sealed Div notes went to the DO, I didn't hold onto them.  The rest of what you said is pretty much how everything was passed on to me as well.

If no RMS clerks pop in over the weekend and post a reply, I think I may have to hit the Orderly Room in Halifax on Monday morning to get a definitive answer about the Div notes on the actual Pers File issue.  Relabelling them as a service letter and calling them an extract is just dodging the regs for Div Notes and defeats the whole point of having the notes sealed on posting, the way I see it.


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## Long in the tooth (13 Jan 2007)

In the Battalion 'notes' were kept in the CSMs book, including all the little snowflakes (extras).  When the CSM left the book was burned except for ongoing disciplinary cases.

Anything not posted to the pers file (and most things are not appropriate) at the end of PER season should be destroyed.  The passing of 'unofficial' pers records is not allowed under 245.

It's always interesting what a request under the privacy for all files held officially or unofficially my dredge up.... just like a motion to disclose in a civilian trial.  Anything with your name on it, severed or not, must be released.


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## 284_226 (13 Jan 2007)

Worn Out Grunt said:
			
		

> In the Battalion 'notes' were kept in the CSMs book, including all the little snowflakes (extras).  When the CSM left the book was burned except for ongoing disciplinary cases.
> 
> Anything not posted to the pers file (and most things are not appropriate) at the end of PER season should be destroyed.  The passing of 'unofficial' pers records is not allowed under 245.



And I'd suspect that painstakingly detailed descriptions of a member's divorce, resulting financial difficulties, and ensuing medical problems (from over 9 years ago) are probably not considered fair game for an extract of Div Notes placed on the members Pers File.



> It's always interesting what a request under the privacy for all files held officially or unofficially my dredge up.... just like a motion to disclose in a civilian trial.  Anything with your name on it, severed or not, must be released.



Indeed.  Thanks for an 836's point of view on the matter...much appreciated.


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## rmacqueen (13 Jan 2007)

Div "notes" are exactly that, notes.  They are for internal use within a unit and should not be placed on a UPF.  Anything of a disciplinary nature for inclusion in a UPF should be official, ie written warning, PER, course reports, etc, and thus open to redress.


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## armyvern (13 Jan 2007)

rmacqueen said:
			
		

> Div "notes" are exactly that, notes.  They are for internal use within a unit and should not be placed on a UPF.  Anything of a disciplinary nature for inclusion in a UPF should be official, ie written warning, PER, course reports, etc, and thus open to redress.



That is exactly the reason most keep Div Notes/Pl Comd Notebook (ie 'unofficial) on the UER (Unit Employment Record) vice the members pers file.
In either case, it (anything related to annual performance, ie copy of CFPAS quarterly, etc) is removed at end FY.

The originals of CFPAS quarterlies are indeed allowable on a member Pers file, and if member is transferred to another Unit mid FY (as is the norm) the quarterlies can indeed be transferred with with it for the gaining Units use in writing the members annual PER at end FY. The new Unit will be evaluating the members performance for the entire reporting period, thus it is critical to ensure the originals of the CFPAS quarterlies are available to them on the Pers file. The new Unit would then remove CFPAS related paperwork at end FY. 

If the member chooses to redress, he has his copies. CFPAS paperwork should not be retained on his files past end FY as they are not applicable to his performance in the next FY.


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## NCRCrow (15 Jan 2007)

Navy Reg Force:

Div Notes are held by the supervsior and each year are sealed and kept by the supervsior. When posted they go with you but are sealed.

They are not held on any UER's or UPF's.
Navy Div Books are held by the DO on PO2 and above.


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## armyvern (15 Jan 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Navy Reg Force:
> 
> Div Notes are held by the supervsior and each year are sealed and kept by the supervsior. When posted they go with you but are sealed.
> 
> ...



Well to re-iterate a point I made earlier, it is usually the IMMEDIATE supervisor who IS holding the UER...where do you think those notes are going??? Or should your supervisor just hold 2 seperate files on you? One for official CFPAS stuff, and one for secondary div notes? Not going to happen. That's why I said most Units choose to hold them on the UER as that is indeed the file that your immediate supervisor ids holding on you.

Soory for typos...posting loaded.  :-[


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## 284_226 (15 Jan 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Navy Reg Force:
> 
> Div Notes are held by the supervsior and each year are sealed and kept by the supervsior. When posted they go with you but are sealed.



I think we established above that once a year's worth of notes are sealed, they're held with the UPR, but not on the UPF.  And, if I'm reading the link to the Guide to the Divisional System correctly, they're supposed to be held within the formation if the member leaves CMS (or what I would more accurately describe as "The Navy"...)  



> They are not held on any UER's or UPF's.



Other than the Guide to the Divisional System, I can't seem to find any directive/policy/regulation that says that, although it does seem to be the consensus amongst the 836s I talked to today.


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## NCRCrow (15 Jan 2007)

separate DIV note book (Binder)--sorry not UER

What ship are you posted too AV?


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## George Wallace (15 Jan 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> Navy Reg Force:
> 
> Div Notes are held by the supervsior and each year are sealed and kept by the supervsior. When posted they go with you but are sealed.
> 
> ...



OK

I'm a little confused here with the term "Div Notes".  I know about PDRs and PERs and UERs and know how they are handled, but Div Notes don't seem to fall into any of those discriptions.  Now in the Army, we will fill out info sheets for our Pl/Tp WO and Pl/Tp Offr, but those don't go anywhere but those two individuals 'pockets'.  They are usually lost in a wash within the year and you usually have to fill a new one out for the next Pl/Tp WO or Offr.  In NO way and NO time do they ever get sealed in an envelope and accompany a member on their Posting.  So could you please explain to me what exactly Div Notes are.


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Jan 2007)

Same here George  ???


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## NCRCrow (15 Jan 2007)

GW:

Div Notes are a pure NAVY thing found no where else in the CF.

They are notes on your performance written by your Sup. The CO reviews them quarterly.

IE:

29 Dec 2006- OS Smith was adrift for cleaning stations and was unshaven etc.


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## Long in the tooth (15 Jan 2007)

Divisional notes are just the Navy's version of what a Pl Comd or CSM might record in the course of a year.  As an aside, the Navy produced an excellent pam simply titled 'The Divisional System' which is applicable across the CF (just change the terms).


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Jan 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> GW:
> 
> Div Notes are a pure NAVY thing found no where else in the CF.
> 
> ...




Hmm... sounds like info that aids you in writing PDR/PER's, but leave it up to the navy to make some different.  ;D


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## 284_226 (15 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> So could you please explain to me what exactly Div Notes are.



Direct from the "Guide to the Divisional System"...

_The Divisional Officer’s Notes Sheets (DIVNOTES) (Annex B) allow for a continuous Record of Performance from which assessments may be compiled. They are used for recording personal concerns if they have had a detrimental effect on performance, or for recurring requests, all of which may have a bearing on the member’s performance or employment. Letters of appreciation or displeasure are to be noted. DO and DCPO are reminded that members can have their DIVNOTES in accordance with Access to Information regulations.  It reduces staff work and hastens the provision of DIVNOTES if the members now access their DIVNOTES through an informal request to the Ship’s Office. Persons releasing the DIVNOTES must ensure that the intent of the Privacy Act is respected, checking that the DIVNOTES contain no names or reference to third parties (i.e. persons other than the member to whom the DIVNOTES pertain). _

It's the Navy solution to "Brag Sheets" - the onus is placed on the supervisor to document a member's performance on a frequent basis.


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## NCRCrow (15 Jan 2007)

It is more of a cover your ass device in PDR/PER interviews and with disciplinary or administrative problems.


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## 284_226 (15 Jan 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> It is more of a cover your *** device in PDR/PER interviews and with disciplinary or administrative problems.



That too!


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## George Wallace (15 Jan 2007)

Now?  Would they be legal and ethical, if passed from one supervisor to another?  Sounds like something that a Harassment Charge could be laid upon if they are being passed from one supervisor to another.  Just one of the scenarios from the HA course would say that they are indeed a form of Harassment, if passed to another person.

Anyone who will have had the HA Course will remember the scenario of a group of supervisors sitting around a table in the Rest Area discussing the performance or lack of performance of their troops.  This would be a more serious and damaging form, as it is 'in print'.

Just wondering?


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## NCRCrow (15 Jan 2007)

They are sealed and to be opened by only the Divisional Officer of the gaining unit by permission of the CO, if warranted. This is to avoid your situation.

I have never seen any old divnote packs reopened.


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## armyvern (15 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Now?  Would they be legal and ethical, if passed from one supervisor to another?  Sounds like something that a Harassment Charge could be laid upon if they are being passed from one supervisor to another.  Just one of the scenarios from the HA course would say that they are indeed a form of Harassment, if passed to another person.
> 
> Anyone who will have had the HA Course will remember the scenario of a group of supervisors sitting around a table in the Rest Area discussing the performance or lack of performance of their troops.  This would be a more serious and damaging form, as it is 'in print'.
> 
> Just wondering?



Only CFPAS quarterlies are officially recognized records of one's performance. Div notes and Pl Comds notebook pages, post-ex reports etc should be used to compile the official CFPAS quarterly.

Then, those CFPAS quarterlies are used to compile the annual CFAPS PER; at which time, those quarterlies are destroyed, as should be the Div notes and Pl Comd notebook pages. 

CFPAS quarterlies may be passed from one supervisor to another if the member is moved in mid FY, in order to enable the new supervisor to write the annual CFPAS PER. 

No unofficial records of one's performance (ie Div notes, Pl Comds notebook) should be transferred between Units.

This is why CFPAS exists folks, start using it.


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## George Wallace (15 Jan 2007)

Other than a 'supervisor's' personal notes, all of this should be done during the Quarterly PDR process.  This sounds like a redundant process, and increase a in a supervisor's duties.  Or does the Navy not use the PDR Quarterly reporting cycle?


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## armyvern (15 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Other than a 'supervisor's' personal notes, all of this should be done during the Quarterly PDR process.  This sounds like a redundant process, and increase a in a supervisor's duties.  Or does the Navy not use the PDR Quarterly reporting cycle?



Apparently they don't...


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## navymich (15 Jan 2007)

George, yes they do use the quarterly PDRs.  I don't know the origin of the div notes, but I always found them handy to write up quarterlies and didn't know any different until I discovered while I was on ILQ that it wasn't done like that anywhere else.


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## NCRCrow (15 Jan 2007)

Of course we do, (do not be foolish .........AV or Librarian, GW) and it is redundant (agree)

I am telling the forum how we do business and DIV Notes and CFPAS (PDR's/PER's) are two different entities (physically) but merge for CFPAS purposes.

They are passed between units and that the reality.


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## 284_226 (15 Jan 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> They are sealed and to be opened by only the Divisional Officer of the gaining unit by permission of the CO, if warranted. This is to avoid your situation.
> 
> I have never seen any old divnote packs reopened.



Nor I.

And for GW - you've touched on precisely why I don't think it's appropriate that Div Notes should be ever placed on the actual Pers file.  Not sealed and placed with it, but actually right on the Pers file itself.  However, without a definitive reference about it...

If I can't get anything definitive from the Halifax CSOR, I think I may have to try the CPO1 over at AJAG (A) tomorrow, if it's not a snow day.  Winter has arrived in NS!

About the CFPAS cycle - yes, the Navy uses it, but the Div Notes system provides additional support for CFPAS.  And yes, it does add significantly to a supervisor's workload.


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## beach_bum (15 Jan 2007)

They should not be on the Pers file period.  There is a PER folder that accompanies the Pers file, but Div notes or notes of any unofficial variety are not allowed on the Pers file and would be stripped.


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## Rhibwolf (15 Jan 2007)

UPF, UER and Div notes are all packaged up together, with any other docs the new URS needs, and sent - its strictly a mailing thing.  On arrival, its all broken out, and sent to whomever needs to hold said docs.  The notes remained sealed.  There shouldnt be any reason that Div Notes make it "into" any other file unless they are being used as substantiation for something like C&P.  (e.g. As seen in Refs A-C, LS Bloggins' performance throughout this last year yada yada yada..)  
As mentioned above, the div notes are left sealed, and the only time I have ever had to open them or have heard of them being opened was on a mbr whose losing unit didnt bother to write a PDR and come PER time, we lacked sufficient info on Bloggins to write his PER.  The old unit was unable (unwilling?) to send a PDR along, so we opened the pkg up.


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## armyvern (15 Jan 2007)

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> UPF, UER and Div notes are all packaged up together, with any other docs the new URS needs, and sent - its strictly a mailing thing.  On arrival, its all broken out, and sent to whomever needs to hold said docs.  The notes remained sealed.  There shouldnt be any reason that Div Notes make it "into" any other file unless they are being used as substantiation for something like C&P.  (e.g. As seen in Refs A-C, LS Bloggins' performance throughout this last year yada yada yada..)
> As mentioned above, the div notes are left sealed, and the only time I have ever had to open them or have heard of them being opened was on a mbr whose losing unit didnt bother to write a PDR and come PER time, we lacked sufficient info on Bloggins to write his PER.  The old unit was unable (unwilling?) to send a PDR along, so we opened the pkg up.



And all this goes to say is that, had the CFPAS system been used correctly, the div notes would have been incorporated into the CFPAS quarterly PDR, div notes then destroyed (as the PDR is the official document), and PDR forwarded to new Unit as per CFPAS guidelines. 

If the Div notes are incorporated, either disciplinary or performance wise into the CFPAS PDR, and the PDR is being forwarded; why the heck are you keeping the Div notes at all? The CFPAS quarterly is the official document for this purpose, and for disciplinary action it is the Verbal, Written, or C&P that is the official documentation, all of which are signed and dated by the member. Keeping the Div notes is redundant...and unnesessary, even more so as they are official documentation of...nothing.


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## NCRCrow (15 Jan 2007)

I agree and see DIV Notes as a valuable tool even though they are a huge pain.

as well as CFPAS which the Navy does as well as DIV notes.

BUT THATS THE WAY IT IS!!!!! SO WE DO IT!


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Jan 2007)

Do I hear the rusty lock again  ??? .........................................


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## 284_226 (15 Jan 2007)

HFXCrow said:
			
		

> I am telling the forum how we do business and DIV Notes and CFPAS (PDR's/PER's) are two different entities (physically) but merge for CFPAS purposes.
> 
> They are passed between units and that the reality.



The problem is that PDRs are limited to containing Protected A information, and if passed between units (even unofficially), there's only a limited amount of damage that can arise.  Div Notes are allowed to contain anything up to Protected B, and can become rather sordid - and there's no need for anyone other than the person writing them to know the contents, really.  

Now if you can envision said sordid details (which aren't subject to the grievance process like PDRs and PERs) being made a permanent part of a Pers file - and then imagine who may in the course of their duties have access to a member's Pers file....you can see where this is going.


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## Michael OLeary (15 Jan 2007)

How exactly are they a "valuable tool" if they are "never opened" and the Navy is using the CFPAS as the primary means of reporting?  What are they used for if the PDRs and PERS are being completed properly?  What validity would any information in them have in an official capacity if the previous supervisors hadn't included that information in PDRs and PERs (or other official records on pers files) as they should have?  If the Div Notes are held in sealed envelopes by supervisors, how does the member know they are getting them all when they request them under an Access to Information request?


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## NCRCrow (15 Jan 2007)

its quiet in here.........

DIV Notes are kept in a binder throughout the year and only sealed after the PER is signed. (My opinion- They are a valuable tool for PER redress for the member and the sup and thats about it)

Anyway, I am not arguing the validity of some of the posters comments. I am just telling the forum, how the (Reg Force) Navy does business.

Bedtime for me, you are all right! The Army does it right and so does the Airforce and so does the Navy!! I just follow orders.


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## George Wallace (15 Jan 2007)

Rhibwolf said:
			
		

> UPF, UER and Div notes are all packaged up together, with any other docs the new URS needs, and sent - its strictly a mailing thing.  On arrival, its all broken out, and sent to whomever needs to hold said docs.  The notes remained sealed.  There shouldnt be any reason that Div Notes make it "into" any other file unless they are being used as substantiation for something like C&P.  (e.g. As seen in Refs A-C, LS Bloggins' performance throughout this last year yada yada yada..)
> As mentioned above, the div notes are left sealed, and the only time I have ever had to open them or have heard of them being opened was on a mbr whose losing unit didnt bother to write a PDR and come PER time, we lacked sufficient info on Bloggins to write his PER.  The old unit was unable (unwilling?) to send a PDR along, so we opened the pkg up.



OK.  I have a few problems with this.  If they are being sent, packaged up with all the other Docs, not to be opened........how many times has the OR staff taken letter openers to envelope in envelope in envelope, etc. and suddenly all envelopes are open for distribution or filing?  Nor do I hold all supervisors honest enough to keep such documents 'sealed'. 

Next, the comment that they are being sent as substantiation for something like C&P doesn't cut it, nor does it sound LEGAL.  All pertinent information about the C&P will be on the CHARGE/CONDUCT SHEET with follow up information in the PDR Quarterly reports stating whether or not the person being evaluated performed in satisfactory manner, and whether or not they were correcting their 'Faults' as listed on their PDR.

As for 'Loosing Units' not doing the PDR or PER, that still does not justify the keeping of 'unauthorised' documentation on Pers.  It is up to the Unit to get the info from the other Unit in the 'Correct' documentation.

I see some serious problems here for the HA personnel should someone find that this 'System' has in any way prejudiced or damaged their career.


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## armyvern (15 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> The problem is that PDRs are limited to containing Protected A information, and if passed between units (even unofficially), there's only a limited amount of damage that can arise.  Div Notes are allowed to contain anything up to Protected B, and can become rather sordid - and there's no need for anyone other than the person writing them to know the contents, really.
> 
> Now if you can envision said sordid details (which aren't subject to the grievance process like PDRs and PERs) being made a permanent part of a Pers file - and then imagine who may in the course of their duties have access to a member's Pers file....you can see where this is going.



If that info is indeed that grievous or sordid that it can not be contained within a PDR (which I highly doubt....); there are official means of paperwork to deal with that (ie medical chits etc)..not via unofficial Div notes. Sorry. Just not on.

And if there's no need for anyone other than the person writing them to know the contents as you've stated above, you have just wholey invalidated your argument for both drafting and passing that info on to the gaining Unit.


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## Michael OLeary (15 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> The problem is that PDRs are limited to containing Protected A information, and if passed between units (even unofficially), there's only a limited amount of damage that can arise.  Div Notes are allowed to contain anything up to Protected B, and can become rather sordid - and there's no need for anyone other than the person writing them to know the contents, really.
> 
> Now if you can envision said sordid details (which aren't subject to the grievance process like PDRs and PERs) being made a permanent part of a Pers file - and then imagine who may in the course of their duties have access to a member's Pers file....you can see where this is going.



Then why does the image of the PDR form filler in the current CFPAS download show that the form is "PROTECT B (WHEN COMPLETED)"?


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Jan 2007)

And the main reason you can't save it to a DND computer HDD. Can either save it a 1.44 Mb Floppy disk or a Jump/USB drive.


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## George Wallace (15 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> Now if you can envision said sordid details (which aren't subject to the grievance process like PDRs and PERs) being made a permanent part of a Pers file - and then imagine who may in the course of their duties have access to a member's Pers file....you can see where this is going.



Excuse me!  If nothing would open up a case for a Grievance and a Harassment Charge, it would be the keeping of such "sordid" details in a Div Note.


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## armyvern (15 Jan 2007)

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> And the main reason you can't save it to a DND computer HDD. Can either save it a 1.44 Mb Floppy disk or a Jump/USB drive.



And don't forget "Entrust."   ;D


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## 284_226 (15 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> OK.  I have a few problems with this.  If they are being sent, packaged up with all the other Docs, not to be opened........how many times has the OR staff taken letter openers to envelope in envelope in envelope, etc. and suddenly all envelopes are open for distribution or filing?  Nor do I hold all supervisors honest enough to keep such documents 'sealed'.
> 
> Next, the comment that they are being sent as substantiation for something like C&P doesn't cut it, nor does it sound LEGAL.  All pertinent information about the C&P will be on the CHARGE/CONDUCT SHEET with follow up information in the PDR Quarterly reports stating whether or not the person being evaluated performed in satisfactory manner, and whether or not they were correcting their 'Faults' as listed on their PDR.



I agree completely.



> As for 'Loosing Units' not doing the PDR or PER, that still does not justify the keeping of 'unauthorised' documentation on Pers.  It is up to the Unit to get the info from the other Unit in the 'Correct' documentation.
> 
> I see some serious problems here for the HA personnel should someone find that this 'System' has in any way prejudiced or damaged their career.



Prejudiced...yup, that about nails it.


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## Nfld Sapper (15 Jan 2007)

Right forgot about that pesky program ;D


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## 284_226 (15 Jan 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> Then why does the image of the PDR form filler in the current CFPAS download show that the form is "PROTECT B (WHEN COMPLETED)"?



I just started up CFPAS on my work laptop (CFPAS 2007.0.3), and it shows "PROTECTED A (WHEN COMPLETED)" at the top of the screen and form - as do the current copies of PDRs that I have here.


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## Nfld Sapper (16 Jan 2007)

284_226 said:
			
		

> I just started up CFPAS on my work laptop (CFPAS 2007.0.3), and it shows "PROTECTED A (WHEN COMPLETED)" at the top of the screen and form - as do the current copies of PDRs that I have here.



I think Mr. O'Leary might have meant PER which is Protected B vice PDR which is Protected A.


<edited for spelling>


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## 284_226 (16 Jan 2007)

The Librarian said:
			
		

> If that info is indeed that grievous or sordid that it can not be contained within a PDR (which I highly doubt....); there are official means of paperwork to deal with that (ie medical chits etc)..not via unofficial Div notes. Sorry. Just not on.



I agree 100%.



> And if there's no need for anyone other than the person writing them to know the contents as you've stated above, you have just wholey invalidated your argument for both drafting and passing that info on to the gaining Unit.



Sorry, I wasn't arguing for passing it on, I was trying to explain that serious damage could occur if it were passed on "under cover of the Pers file".

Which is precisely what appears to have happened.


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## 284_226 (16 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Excuse me!  If nothing would open up a case for a Grievance and a Harassment Charge, it would be the keeping of such "sordid" details in a Div Note.



Except maybe the keeping of such "sordid" details in a Div Note contained in a Pers file, where they might be found by future OCs, COs, or grievance analysts who wouldn't otherwise have been privy to the information


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## Michael OLeary (16 Jan 2007)

Nfld Sapper said:
			
		

> I think Mr. O'Leary might have meant PER which is Protected B vice PDR which is Protected A.


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## George Wallace (16 Jan 2007)

That's what I thought.  PDRs are Protected B when completed and properly secured in a 'locked' file drawer/cabinet, unlike Protected A.  You guys had be wondering.  


[Edit.  On bringing up CFPAS on my computer, I am proven wrong......it is Protected A on the form.  Time to review and refresh on all my Security Levels again.   :-[ ]


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## 284_226 (16 Jan 2007)

Run the actual CFPAS application, Michael...that appears to be the help documentation showing Protected B.  The tops of the forms in the application and on printed forms indicates Protected A for Sections 1/2, 3/4 and 5.


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## George Wallace (16 Jan 2007)

What Version are you using?


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## gaspasser (16 Jan 2007)

Hi All, been reading along here and having a bit of a time trying to understand what is being explained.  Are Div notes the same thing a PlWO / CSM notes for PER time and for the oncoming Supervisor.  IF so, IIRC, they are no longer allowed as it is passing on "opinions".  Could possible lead to  (now) harassment charges against the PER writter and higher authority.
Can someone of higher authority tell me if this practise is still done?
Cheers,  BYTD


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## 284_226 (16 Jan 2007)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What Version are you using?



CFPAS 2007.0.3 - the latest.  I've got my file folder of PDRs for the last few years, and they all show Protected A as well.  I think someone messed up in the Help documentation when they were creating the pictures.


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## 284_226 (16 Jan 2007)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Hi All, been reading along here and having a bit of a time trying to understand what is being explained.  Are Div notes the same thing a PlWO / CSM notes for PER time and for the oncoming Supervisor.  IF so, IIRC, they are no longer allowed as it is passing on "opinions".  Could possible lead to  (now) harassment charges against the PER writter and higher authority.
> Can someone of higher authority tell me if this practise is still done?
> Cheers,  BYTD



I think you have the comparison right, from what I've read - but Div Notes are still used (and allowed) in the Navy, and there are procedures for their handling.  However, I'm having difficulty finding a "quotable" reference that definitively states that they're not to be passed between units "unsealed" or contained in a Pers file.


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## Michael OLeary (16 Jan 2007)

I am also looking at version 2007.0.3 and it looks like a problem with the help file.  

Regardless, it doesn't make a case for Div Notes as the have been described.  If the information is that important, it should have been formally documented, not sealed in an envelope to be used against the member months or years after moving to a new job.


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## 284_226 (16 Jan 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I am also looking at version 2007.0.3 and it looks like a problem with the help file.



Yes, it looks like a problem with the screen captures they used in the CFPAS documentation.



> Regardless, it doesn't make a case for Div Notes as the have been described.  If the information is that important, it should have been formally documented, not sealed in an envelope to be used against the member months or years after moving to a new job.



Agreed.

And I'll make a humongous stink about it, if I'm ever able to find something in writing that says it's not to be done!!   ;D


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## rmacqueen (16 Jan 2007)

Div notes are similar to RSM notes and are basically supposed to be used as nothing more than a quick reference on a member.  Anything contained in the notes is usually dealt with in an "off the record" manner and they are only supposed to be used in an official way as a reference for more serious actions, ie written warning, etc.  They should never be placed on a UPF and, IIRC are supposed to be destroyed upon the writing of the PER as any shortcomings or commendations contained in them are then official and they are no longer needed.

As for passing them to a new unit, I can only say that in 3 years working in the Records section in Esquimalt, I never once saw Div notes in anyones file.


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## Michael OLeary (16 Jan 2007)

rmacqueen said:
			
		

> Div notes are similar to RSM notes and are basically supposed to be used as nothing more than a quick reference on a member.  Anything contained in the notes is usually dealt with in an "off the record" manner and they are only supposed to be used in an official way as a reference for more serious actions, ie written warning, etc.  They should never be placed on a UPF and, IIRC are supposed to be destroyed upon the writing of the PER as any shortcomings or commendations contained in them are then official and they are no longer needed.
> 
> As for passing them to a new unit, I can only say that in 3 years working in the Records section in Esquimalt, I never once saw Div notes in anyones file.



How are they a "quick" reference" if they require the CO's authority to open them?  We are not talking about the current supervisor's working notes on his/her subordinates, but those that get sealed and forwarded as described above.

How would you have seen them in a file when it was repeatedly mentioned in this thread that they are kept separate from official files personnel files?



> ...are supposed to be destroyed upon the writing of the PER as any shortcomings or commendations contained in them are then official and they are no longer needed...



That is exactly the point, which is why the description of Div Notes as "sealed and forwarded" to a new unit on posting or change of jobs has been questioned.


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## navymich (16 Jan 2007)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> That is exactly the point, which is why the description of Div Notes as "sealed and forwarded" to a new unit on posting or change of jobs has been questioned.



Because that's the way it's always been done?  Until now in this thread, I've never seen anyone really questioning the practice.  It's the navy, sheep following...  ;D

But in reality, if someone is posted mid-year and you send a PDR with them, there would be no requirement for you to send on the div notes to "back it up just in case".  To cover your own butt, if the PDR is adverse, you might want to hold on to the notes yourself.  Other then that?


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## armyvern (16 Jan 2007)

airmich said:
			
		

> Because that's the way it's always been done?  Until now in this thread, I've never seen anyone really questioning the practice.  It's the navy, sheep following...  ;D
> 
> But in reality, if someone is posted mid-year and you send a PDR with them, there would be no requirement for you to send on the div notes to "back it up just in case".  To cover your own butt, if the PDR is adverse, you might want to hold on to the notes yourself.  Other then that?



Actually,

You don't even need to keep them to back yourself up. Think about it. You use the Div notes to compile the PDRs, the PDRs are then used to compile the annual PER.

Member believes that the PDR or PER is adverse? Member files his/her Redress of Grievance.

Div Notes as the Supervisor to back yourself up (to back your position up) in that Redress? Absolutely not. They are not official documents, they are not signed by the member, they are heresay. Plain and simple.

CFPAS PDRs/PERs *are the official standard* for noting the performance/shortcomings of members. 

Member's been charged or had questionable conduct worth keeping on Div Notes?? If it's worth mentioning in the Div Notes, then most certainly it was worth doing the job properly and writing up the verbal or recorded warning or C&P about it. Those verbals, recordeds & C&Ps would then be the official documents that would back up the supervisors position should the member choose to redress either the PDR or PER containing ill-reference to his or her performance. These are all signed by the member, the supervisor, and the overseeing officer. These will hold up to scrutiny during a redress.

Plain and simple, if the Supervisor does their job correctly, and existing legally acceptable paperwork/actions are taken to record both noteworthy/disciplinary actions; Div notes should be treated at end FY just like any other sources used to compile the annual PER...destroyed.


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## NCRCrow (16 Jan 2007)

Heresay yes...and opinion yes....but the person can see them anytime............

you may disagree with your "official documents" etc etc but its the way we do business...


Crow


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## Fishbone Jones (16 Jan 2007)

Back and forth, back and forth.  : When someone digs out the OFFICIAL policy, with references, concerning 'Div notes', we'll open this back up. Maybe someone can contact HR or DPERS for a policy clarification.


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