# Past CIC Sea Cadet Officers Charged



## Franko (26 Jan 2004)

This just posted on CTV.ca

Sea cadet abuse class action gets go-ahead

CTV.ca News Staff
A class-action suit filed in British Columbia alleges five former officers of a sea cadet program in Vancouver sexually abused their young wards over a 10-year period.

The suit, certified in B.C. Supreme Court on Friday, names the Attorney General of Canada as defendant.

The five former officers of HMCS Discovery, stationed on Deadman‘s Island in Vancouver‘s Stanley Park, are named as third parties in the suit.

Two of the officers, Ralph Bremner and Conrad Sundman, have already been found guilty of sexual abuse and other sex crimes.

Three years ago, Sundman received seven years in prison after pleading guilty to 13 counts of indecent assault and three counts of buggery.
Bremner was found guilty on four counts of indecent assault on boys aged 13 to 15.
Victims‘ advocates have already called those verdicts the first step towards a resolution of the case.

"What happened to these young men and boys a long time ago was a terrible thing ... it has caused extreme pain and anguish that continues to today," spokesperson Ron Joyce told reporters.
The lawyer for the class-action suit, Robert Gibbens, says the investigating officer interviewed more than 50 complainants. 
Gibbens estimates there could be more than 200 victims of the government‘s "systemic negligence" -- rivalling in scope and severity the infamous Mount Cashel orphanage sex abuse case.

Certifying the case last week, B.C. Supreme Court Justice Austin Cullen noted the case will hinge on determining whether Ottawa took "reasonable measures in the operation or management of the cadet program at HMCS Discovery to protect cadets from misconduct of a sexual nature by employees, agents or other cadets at HMCS Discovery."
The representative of the class action, William White, says his experience of abuse began in 1968, when he was 13 or 14, and ended some three years later.

In his statement of claim, White names Sundman and another former officer, Clarence Anderson, now deceased, as his abusers.
Gibbens says any former cadets who suffered alleged sexual abuse at the hands of a superior during the years 1967 to ‘77 can join the class action by contacting him at his Vancouver office.
The next stage of the proceedings will be discovery and disclosure.

Any opinions, comments?

Regards


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## Franko (26 Jan 2004)

So no one in this forum finds this disturbing?

It took this long for it to be brought to the BC Superior Court?

Do you think CHAP would prevent this from happening again?

Thought and comments please!

Regards


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## Danjanou (26 Jan 2004)

Actually Franko I find it very troubling. I really don‘t have much to add though, as noted in an earlier thread here re the CIC Officer in Ontario who was also charged earlier this year in similar circumstances.

The sad but realistic fact is that paedeophiles often deliberatly or even subconciously seek out positions of authority that will place them in close contact with children. Just look at who has been caught at such actions in the past; camp counsellors, scout leaders, teachers, hockey coaches, and CIC officers.

As to why it took so long to catch them. Well again they are very very secrative and cautious as they know full well the consequences of what will befall them if caught. Care to guess the life expectancy of a child molester in gen pop in any prison?

Also they‘re in positions of authority and their word is more likely to be taken than some troubled child‘. Just look at how long Mount Cashell in Nfld was kept covered up. The abuse there went on for decades and people in authority knew and choose not to do anything about it.


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## Cadet810 (26 Jan 2004)

Those officers are really sick.
Shame on them

   





> Do you think CHAP would prevent this from happening again?
> [/QB]


Not really.


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## Infanteer (26 Jan 2004)

I think they should hang from a lightpost in Downtown Vancouver.


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## Jason Jarvis (26 Jan 2004)

> Originally posted by Franko:
> [qb] So no one in this forum finds this disturbing?[/qb]


Sorry, Franko. If I posted what I said when I read this in the paper this morning Harris would lock me out. I‘m finding this kind of behaviour much more disturbing than I did three years ago -- before my son was born.

God help anyone who hurts my little boy.

But I think Infanteer‘s definitely on the right track. . . .


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## Franko (27 Jan 2004)

From a relative who worked in Dorchester pen(used to be max now downgraded to med/min). They never lasted more than a week..thats why they were put in solitary for 99% of their sentence, and regularly beaten.

Note: this was back in the 60s and 70s   

Regards


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## primer (27 Jan 2004)

What do I think about this. They are week,sick and should be shot and survivors should be shot again. With that aside they really didt have any type security checks back in the 60s and 70s so we didt know.I am glad that it is now out in the open and more past and present cadets should come forward if it happend to them. We never herd of this about 10 years ago. Only when Sheldon Kennidy from the Boston Bruins came forward with it from his JR Hockey out West. Since then there have been lots that have came forward. This really puts a black eye on our system,with all the good that CIC offices and cadets have done for the movement we are back under the micro scope.......


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## Franko (27 Jan 2004)

I wouldn‘t go that far to say that the ENTIRE CIC are under the microscope, just a few. This happened a long time ago, you can‘t blame an entire organization for something that happened, and wasn‘t reported until after.

The good thing is justice is finally being served, abeit, slowley

Regards


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## primer (27 Jan 2004)

I would disagree there Franko. lastnight at our cadet admin night we had parents asking what type off security checks that CIC officer have. I have told the parents that we go through PWGSC for our checks. Also that all our CIs. P-RES and REG Force must have a CPIC  done from the local police. I have had P-res soldiers and Reg force soldiers not come back because of being told to get a check with the CADET UNIT PAYING FOR IT, are we Trying to save our butts i would say yes. This happend out west but we will feel it all over CANADA.


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## Franko (27 Jan 2004)

You DEMAND the reg force and res pers to get a background check in your corps? One would think a member who already had a check done by CSIS would be good enough.

Regards


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## primer (27 Jan 2004)

No we dont demand it the RCO out of Borden says it will happen..


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## primer (27 Jan 2004)

Franco I could not find the on for ONT but I found the one for BC
Volunteers in the Canadian Cadet Organization


 http://www.regions.cadets.forces.gc.ca/pac/support/publications/prci_e.asp 

go to para 218


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## Franko (27 Jan 2004)

So acording to that link all I require is a signed letter by my CO or a recent clearance check for a higher status of security and everything is good to go?

Regards


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## primer (27 Jan 2004)

Thats correct. I thinks it a great idea. But I am wandering if P-Res soldier getting tasked to CSTC do they have to get one too?????


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## Franko (27 Jan 2004)

CSTC? What the blazes is that?


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## Jason Jarvis (27 Jan 2004)

CSTC = Cadet Summer Training Centre

When I became a CI again last April I had to pay for my own background check at police HQ here in Toronto.

This should definitely be mandatory.


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## primer (27 Jan 2004)

I agree Jason they should


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## Caz (29 Jan 2004)

When I became a paid CI, DND ran a check on me.

Then again, when I enroled.

+++

Would CHAP have saved those kids?  Who knows.  At least they would have known their rights.  CHAP is about prevention, yes, but largely education on what is and isn‘t appropriate.

There is a lot of publicity on this because the parties involved were CIC.  Sadly, in the 70s, lots of youth organizations sexually assaulted their members.  Everything from Scouts to the Roman Catholic Church.

Disgusting, isn‘t it?

-R.


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## elscotto937 (30 Jan 2004)

Only problem is the criminal background check only confirms whether a person had been convicted of a crime.


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## Franko (30 Jan 2004)

Good point Scott937.

How is a background check supposed to prevent an abuse like I posted at the start? Lets get real for a moment.There are lots of molesters out there who haven‘t been caught yet. What is stopping them from joining? Nothing!

The only way we can prevent an abuse from happening is to educate the cadets so that they know what is and what isn‘t appropriate behaviour. Make them aware that they can come forward when an abuse has happened and that action WILL be IMMEDIATE with no reprecussions to the victim.

Hopefully this will diswade any predators(that is what they are) from joining up.

Regards


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## cdhoult (30 Jan 2004)

If the persons never been caught, clearly it would be hard to keep them from joining the CIC. The CF does everything it can; interviews, security checks, etc, but in the grand scheme of things, if the guy/girl is smart enough (and I'm sure many are...) they could beat the system.

Luckily, with CHAP being taught, many cadets will alert officers of weird behaviour. Many CIC Officers are also parents, and pick up on odd behaviour, and keep a closer eye on that particular officer. 

Sadly, things like this will happen. Prevention is the cure. The good guys can't be everywhere at once. 

 Maybe there was no forewarning to it, maybe there was. You would think you could trust the Sgt not to, but who is to say that a 2Lt is more or less likely to molest than a Sgt (depending on the age of the Sgt and Cadets involved...sometimes they may be close in age, assuming it's a Cadet Sgt).

This is where having a cadet trust you enough to come to you with a complaint will help the cadet involved.

Don't be afraid to be approachable...


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## Franko (1 Feb 2004)

Good point Chiefy.

Just hope the *******s get caught BEFORE they do something.

Regards


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## Bruce Monkhouse (1 Feb 2004)

The problem is most sex offenders are the nicest people you will ever meet{on the outside}. After 15 years in corrections I still get suprised when I check an inmates CPIC. Here is a good rule for you and your kids. STAY ALERT AND PAY ATTENTION. Watch for someone who is not comfortable in an adult situation or constantly wants to takes them alone{IE sleepovers, night patrol, etc.} Generally they are loners and don‘t "work" together.{this is why they love the internet so much}. What makes them so hard to catch on to is again, most[but not all] do not think they are doing something wrong and therefore do not show criminal signs as much as others. Unfortunetly what you said about  getting beat in jail is no longer true as about 2/3s of the prison population have sex offences on their records. I‘m sorry this is long but this is very important to know. There are a lot more out there than you realize so I‘ll say it again, if your children are in an organization stay involved untill you are totally satisfied and even then ask questions[to your children] and make suprise visits.{again a generalization but most sex offenders have a strict routine and don‘t like suprises} Having said all that remember that most people who volunteer are just great people who want to help and improve kid‘s lives but also then won‘t mind you being involved.  CHEERS


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## Franko (1 Feb 2004)

Well said and so true Bruce. 

Personally, I think it‘s great when parents actually show an interest in cadets to the point of them coming on a regular basis. Then I usually hit them up to see if they would be willing to help out, perhapse even becoming a CI.

Regards


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## patt (1 Feb 2004)

when i was in Cadets back in Pet, both my parnets helped out my father was on the floor and my mom was in the stores


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## TG1 GUNNER (20 Dec 2004)

there is no excuse for that and those type of people slip in to youth orginizations like scouts,guides,and most of all cadets its ashame but it happens.


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## armygurl_557 (20 Dec 2004)

> Do you think CHAP would prevent this from happening again?





Was anyone here in Kilo coy at Blackdown in 2004? Because that happened with Mcpl _________. He was raping 3 CL girls in the tent next to me. 12 people got RTUed in less than   the 24 hours that I went home one weekend.        *Shakes Head*


(Amended by M. OLeary to remove name.)


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## Burrows (20 Dec 2004)

MMM I wish I were an officer....That kid woulda gotten a lot more than an RTU for that...Dont care if I got jacked up for it...It woulda been warranted...


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## mo-litia (20 Dec 2004)

Infanteer said:
			
		

> I think they should hang from a lightpost in Downtown Vancouver.



That's too humane, hanging can be a relatively painless execution.   How about letting the victims dole out punishments that they decide on?

That would be true justice.   Of course, after that happened, a long drop and a quick stop would be just what these bastards deserve . . . :rage:


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## armygurl_557 (21 Dec 2004)

Yes, but the CHAP preogram wouldn't allow the victims to dole out the punishments right after the abuse or whatnot. Can you imagine the Parework involved in The aftermath of the punishment?


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## Burrows (21 Dec 2004)

Theres less paperwork if they die....


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## armygurl_557 (21 Dec 2004)

Tuche Kyle.. Tuche..


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## condor888000 (21 Dec 2004)

Burrows said:
			
		

> Theres less paperwork if they die....



Does anyone know if that's true?? I've been told it is by officiers, but alas, none of my cadets have died on my watch yet so I can't test it... :'(


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## armygurl_557 (21 Dec 2004)

I'm Sure You can Arrage an Experiment of Some Sort Right? I mean if Its for a Good Cause?


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## Burrows (21 Dec 2004)

Id be willing to volunteer some of my recruit section for it (my new position hopefully...both my TrgO and DCO love the idea) to test that...


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## armygurl_557 (21 Dec 2004)

I'm sure I could supply a few cadets in My corps to help out Kyle..


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## Love793 (2 Jan 2005)

I don't feel the CHAP briefing would have helped a bit.  Obviously the SHARP briefs that the officers had didn't.  Plus it obviously help out that it was clearly spelled out in the Criminal Code of Canada that is was ILLEGAL.

Safety point- To prevent this from reoccurring ,Male or female, never go anywhere with any one unless a third party is with you.

For CIC and CIs- When at a cadet function, never speak with a cadet in private.  Always have someone with you.  If it's a sensitive matter bring in the Padre or Med O.  Always have a witness (Perferably a neutral one)

Staff Cadets- Same thing.

Note for CICs officers.  All CF Members have a Enhanced Rel Check/Security Clearance regularly performed on them.  You can ask the CO of the Reg or Res pers working for you to provide a copy of the updated ERC.  We had to get them from my unit to work with our corps.

Unfortunately this type of thing occurs  in Canadian Society.  We must ALL be aware of it and watch for the signs.  If something doesn't look right, investigate.


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## Docherty (2 Jan 2005)

This case really tarnishes the CIC's reputation.... I kind of see it similar to what happened in Somolia.


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## Ex-Dragoon (2 Jan 2005)

> This case really tarnishes the CIC's reputation.... I kind of see it similar to what happened in Somolia



How can you even compare this to what happened in Africa??? Wake up before making anymore idiotic comments!!  :


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## aesop081 (2 Jan 2005)

Docherty said:
			
		

> This case really tarnishes the CIC's reputation.... I kind of see it similar to what happened in Somolia.



You are 17 and refering to events that happenned when you were 5.......You have not the slightest clue what happenned in Somalia because you were not there.


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## Burrows (2 Jan 2005)

Remember the "We Have A Problem Thread?"  about being smart and thinking will they like this post and do I know what the hell im talking about?  Follow STOP like they teach you at cadets.

Stop...wait...
THink....Do I know my stuff
Observe....Will I encounter flak like many before me
Proceed..Should I or Shouldnt I?


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## Caz (2 Jan 2005)

condor888000 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if that's true?? I've been told it is by officiers, but alas, none of my cadets have died on my watch yet so I can't test it... :'(


Initally, less paperwork on the report of injury - however, the summary investigation to follow is much more paperwork.


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## Sgt_McWatt (3 Jan 2005)

armygurl_557 said:
			
		

> Was anyone here in Kilo coy at Blackdown in 2004? Because that happened with Mcpl _________. He was raping 3 CL girls in the tent next to me. 12 people got RTUed in less than   the 24 hours that I went home one weekend.        *Shakes Head*
> 
> 
> (Amended by M. OLeary to remove name.)



I was in Juliette 2004.


Also I would like to add, my corp has taken it a step past CHAP. After the BC case came up we ran one training night a "street proofing" program that everyone in the corp had to take. Its a pretty good idea because CHAP only teaches you so much.


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## Docherty (3 Jan 2005)

Yes, I do know I was "like" 5, and no I am not trying to be a "know it all".   


Edited to remove unqualified information.


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## kwan (4 Jan 2005)

okay... this thread going way out of hand.. you know CIC officers are mightily respectable.  Several rotten apples don't spoil the bunch.


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## Ex-Dragoon (4 Jan 2005)

*Docherty*....do yourself a favour and engage your brain before your mouth(if that is possible). You will find things will go much more smoothly for you here and in life.


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## Tpr.Orange (4 Jan 2005)

Ex-Dragoon said:
			
		

> *Docherty*....do yourself a favour and engage your brain before your mouth(if that is possible). You will find things will go much more smoothly for you here and in life.



AMEN!


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## Scott (4 Jan 2005)

Docherty said:
			
		

> But many kids have been abused in Cadets including one of my ex-officers who was kicked out for sexualy abuse.



This post makes ZERO sense whatsoever. You do state that "many kids have been abused" Where is your PROOF?



			
				Docherty said:
			
		

> These Cadets were helpless, they were only young Children and we have CF Officers doing this I would say it is actually worse..... Wasen't the Somolian boy who was tortured only 16 years old? Just a couple years older?



Again, a senseless post! What in the name of God do you mean by this? The way it reads to me is that torturing and murdering the young Somali boy was not as bad as the abuse allegations against CIC Officers because the Somali boy, Shidane Arone, was 16 years old. WTF? 

After some discussion with another Mod it's been decided to keep this open because we think it does provide some useful information and if that can be expanded upon then we want it to be. Please, stay in your lanes though.


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## Scott (7 Jan 2005)

Piper, I do so enjoy your levelheadedness, thank you.

If someone wants to make claims, on a public forum, that can be read by both parents and media alike, then they had better damn well be ready to back it up with proof or sources!

I think that's enough said.

On topic, please?


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## Zedic_1913 (7 Jan 2005)

armygurl_557 said:
			
		

> Was anyone here in Kilo coy at Blackdown in 2004? Because that happened with Mcpl _________. He was raping 3 CL girls in the tent next to me. 12 people got RTUed in less than   the 24 hours that I went home one weekend.        *Shakes Head*
> (Amended by M. OLeary to remove name.)



Not to defend the person that this occured to, but a Kilo Staff Cadet ... I heard a slightly different story about what happened.  Also the Staff Cadet was immeadiatly removed from the camp, but the course cadets were transferred to the RTU trailer until they were officailly RTUd 2 days later.


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## Burrows (8 Jan 2005)

Oh boy...lets just hope the media doesnt find this thread.... *hides* (thats a hint for...lets try and not to get into detail here =/ )


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## Storm (8 Jan 2005)

Those saying things like "I heard this happened at camp last summer" should be mindful that a lot of unfounded rumours start at camp. I've heard some of the most absurd stories about incidents that I experienced first hand, both as a cadet and as an officer, none of which resembled the actual event. If you weren't briefed/interviewed by the CO, UHRA, or other credible source on the matter, chances are you shouldn't be prying into the affair anyway. Also keep in mind that rumours can do a lot more damage than you might think...


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Jan 2005)

I've just gone through and reread this whole thread. Some people just don't get it. If you weren't involved, have no intimate knowledge of what occured, are only stating "What you heard" or are just passing on rumour and innuendo, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!


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