# Approved Leave and they want to put me on a career course



## rocksteady (25 Mar 2014)

I have an approved leave pass and they want to put me on PLQ Mod 2 during the time.  I already have flights for my wife, son and I and a hotel booked and paid for.  On top of things my family is supposed to meet our son for the first time which is why we are taking the trip and they have booked time off work for us to come.

My first question is does PLQ constitute a "military requirement" (as stated in QR & O 16.01) with respect to being able to cancel my leave?  The spirit of term "military requirement" seems as though it would be for operational purposes vs. just about anything but I could be wrong.

Secondly, can they force me to cancel my flight and they pay the cancellation fees and hotel stay or do they have to pay for the flight?  The reason I ask as it does not say I must cancel my flight.

Any opinions/knowledge on this situation would be appreciated. 

Refs below.  I reviewed CBI 209.54 but I can't access the corresponding CFAO from home.

209.54 - Reimbursement of Expenses when Recalled from or on Cancellation of Leave
209.54(1) (Application) SSubject to paragraph (2), an officer or non-commissioned member who is recalled to duty from leave in accordance with QR&O 16.01 (Withholding of and Recall From Leave) or whose approved leave has been cancelled for service reasons may be reimbursed for:

transportation and travelling expenses in accordance with CBI 209.83 - Transportation and Travelling Expenses – Move of Officers and Non-commissioned Members on Posting or of Dependants for the member and, where applicable, their dependants to the place of duty from the place from which the member was recalled and for the return journey if the member resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which the member was recalled; and
additional expenses resulting either from the cost of breaking contractual arrangements or cancellation fees that were made specifically for the purpose of an approved leave period.
209.54(2) (Submission of claims for reimbursement) Claims for reimbursement under paragraph (1) shall be submitted in accordance with orders and instructions issued by the Chief of the Defence Staff.

QR & O 16.01 - WITHHOLDING OF AND RECALL FROM LEAVE

(1) Leave may be withheld from an officer or non-commissioned member only when there is a military requirement to do so.

(2) An officer or non-commissioned member on leave may be recalled to duty only:

because of imperative military requirements; and
when the member’s commanding officer personally directs the member’s return to duty.
(3) An officer or non-commissioned member recalled to duty under paragraph (2) ceases to be on leave and is on duty during the period of the journey from the place from which he is recalled to his place of duty and during the period of the return journey if he resumes leave immediately after completion of the duty for which he was recalled.


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## brihard (25 Mar 2014)

When I last was working in Ops, a new PLQ mod 2 started somewhere in the country several times a month. There literally was no course that I found it easier to load soldiers on.

I do not know what else there may be to your story, however if your leave got approval it should have been seen by at least someone who would be in the chain for putting you on that course.

This seems like a very simple fix. Undoubtedly your unit has at least one other person in the queue to start PLQ. Switch you out for them, and then load you on the next PLQ mod 2 that doesn't conflict with higher priority uses they may have for you.

But that's just me. I put a lot of stock in approved leave passes, personally.


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## Infanteer (25 Mar 2014)

Does your CO know about this?


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## rocksteady (25 Mar 2014)

Well I'm actually the 2nd guy in the que for PLQ in my unit.  The first guy also has an approved leave pass for personal travel during part of the PLQ time.  He is also on a high readiness team that has done work up training which finishes also during the PLQ time.  So really there is no one else in my unit that can go on the training.

I'm not sure if the CO knows about it yet or not but he would have to as he is the only one that can cancel my leave as far as I know??


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## SeaKingTacco (26 Mar 2014)

You are correct. Only the Commanding Officer may cancel leave.


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## lcis00110 (26 Mar 2014)

The way I see it, you have two options:

1.  You can submit a memo/leave amendment form to cancel your leave; or
2.  You can submit a memo to not accept the course load.

In my honest opinion (IMHO), option 1 is the best course of action and I recommend it.  PLQ is a CAREER course.  There maybe consequences to not accepting your PLQ.  Turning down a career course will trigger the career shop to possibly initiate an Administrative Review (AR).  Unless you fail off the course, you won't have to do it again... count it as "one in the books" sorta speak.  Once your course is done, you have that time (or not depending on circumstances both unitwise and family availability) to reschedule your trip.  

I say go for the PLQ!!!  You may regret it if you don't


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## Bruce Monkhouse (26 Mar 2014)

...and I would say family "first" and job "second".  You can always get a new job..............


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## SeaKingTacco (26 Mar 2014)

lcis00110 said:
			
		

> The way I see it, you have two options:
> 
> 1.  You can submit a memo/leave amendment form to cancel your leave; or
> 2.  You can submit a memo to not accept the course load.
> ...



Assuming the OP has given us the full story, this is bollocks advice.

If you have a signed leave pass and then request a cancellation of your own leave, YOU are on the hook for any financial implications arising. If the Commanding Officer orders you off leave, then he/she must pay.

There will always be another PLQ course.  Trust me.


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## Tibbson (26 Mar 2014)

The courses are loaded automatically from your Career shop and it's normally done without consult with the Unit.  I honestly can't remember that last time I sent someone on a course based upon the first message we got.  There should be no reason why your Unit can't go back and ask for you to be rescheduled.  It happens all the time.


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## PMedMoe (26 Mar 2014)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Assuming the OP has given us the full story, this is bollocks advice.
> 
> If you have a signed leave pass and then request a cancellation of your own leave, YOU are on the hook for any financial implications arising. If the Commanding Officer orders you off leave, then he/she must pay.
> 
> There will always be another PLQ course.  Trust me.



I agree.


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## Tibbson (26 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> ...and I would say family "first" and job "second".  You can always get a new job..............



I agree with your outlook totally and given the "revolving door" on issuing PLQ messages and how easily people can get swapped out I wouldn't have a worry requesting the change.  Your leave was approved, your costs were uncured and plans were set.  The costs to DND to cancel your leave and reimburse your costs would be too much for a course that can easily be rescheduled.


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## Kat Stevens (26 Mar 2014)

lcis00110 said:
			
		

> The way I see it, you have two options:
> 
> 1.  You can submit a memo/leave amendment form to cancel your leave; or
> 2.  You can submit a memo to not accept the course load.
> ...



Bollix.  OP needs to submit a memo stating that due to a prior family commitment that would cause undue financial hardship to cancel, he requests to be withdrawn from the course, with a willingness to attend the training in future.


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## rocksteady (26 Mar 2014)

SeaKingTacco said:
			
		

> Assuming the OP has given us the full story, this is bollocks advice.
> 
> If you have a signed leave pass and then request a cancellation of your own leave, YOU are on the hook for any financial implications arising. If the Commanding Officer orders you off leave, then he/she must pay.
> 
> There will always be another PLQ course.  Trust me.



Yes, this is the whole story.  There is really nothing else to tell.  I have never been offered PLQ before and I have been waiting since 2012 when I got promoted to go on it.  I just simply have travel plans booked.


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## lcis00110 (26 Mar 2014)

Some have said my advice is bollix, so please ensure that you read my post thoroughly as I indicated lots of "MAYBE"s in it.  I can't say for sure what outcomes will happen... MAYBE nothing... MAYBE an AR... MAYBE.  I just offered options that's all.


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## rocksteady (26 Mar 2014)

If it has to go this way, what about the fact that I am Roman Catholic and I am going home for Easter holidays?  I know if I was Muslim and the course was during Ramadan that I would not be on the course.


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## lcis00110 (26 Mar 2014)

Kat Stevens said, "OP needs to submit a memo stating that due to a prior family commitment that would cause undue financial hardship to cancel, he requests to be withdrawn from the course, with a willingness to attend the training in future."  

This is a great option for you as well.


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## Nfld Sapper (26 Mar 2014)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> If it has to go this way, what about the fact that I am Roman Catholic and I am going home for Easter holidays?  I know if I was Muslim and the course was during Ramadan that I would not be on the course.









Be careful that is a slippery slope....let's not get into the religion debate.

MILNET.CA MENTOR


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## Nfld Sapper (26 Mar 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> Bollix.  OP needs to submit a memo stating that due to a prior family commitment that would cause undue financial hardship to cancel, he requests to be withdrawn from the course, with a willingness to attend the training in future.



 :goodpost:

I highly suggest you follow this sage advice.


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## Crispy Bacon (26 Mar 2014)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> Yes, this is the whole story.  There is really nothing else to tell.  I have never been offered PLQ before and I have been waiting since 2012 when I got promoted to go on it.  I just simply have travel plans booked.



Will you have been Acting/Lacking for more than two years if you decline this PLQ?  One more question worth clarifying with your career shop/unit if/when you request to go on another PLQ.


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## Quirky (26 Mar 2014)

On a separate note PLQ was a waste of 8 weeks, I didn't gain anything towards my leadership component. I would take family matters much more seriously over whatever the CF has you doing. In the end this is a volunteer force and to me, family takes precedence - short of the invasion of Canada.


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## PMedMoe (26 Mar 2014)

Crispy Bacon said:
			
		

> Will you have been Acting/Lacking for more than two years if you decline this PLQ?  One more question worth clarifying with your career shop/unit if/when you request to go on another PLQ.



I've seen people keep their leaf despite not being "qualified" for well over two years.


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## Haggis (26 Mar 2014)

PMedMoe said:
			
		

> I've seen people keep their leaf despite not being "qualified" for well over two years.



Take a close read at CFAO 49-4.  This eventually comes to an end.


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## PMedMoe (26 Mar 2014)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Take a close read at CFAO 49-4.  This eventually comes to an end.



Hey, I know it's in the regs, just stating that I've seen it.  One instance (from personal experience) was one of the guys on my own PLQ.  That was his fourth or fifth kick at the cat and he didn't pass that one either.  Another case (also from personal experience) was when the unit wanted to promote a MCpl to Sgt at the Christmas dinner only to find out he wasn't PLQ qualified.

Besides, we're only talking about Mod 2 here, not the entire course, which is required for qualification.


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## upandatom (26 Mar 2014)

Haggis said:
			
		

> Take a close read at CFAO 49-4.  This eventually comes to an end.



BS, I know what the rule "states" but I have seen many a rolly polly ollies with a leaf and no PLQ, or JLC or whatever. 

There are always PLQ MOD 2s running, It is probably the one course that wont get rolled back with all these cutbacks. 

Stick to your leave pass, dont cancel it yourself, get the official word that its cancelled and go from there. Ensure your CoC knows your plans, why you are going away etc and you'll be fine. PLQ isnt that long anyways.


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## Fishbone Jones (26 Mar 2014)

The thread isn't about acting\ lacking, and the official word has been quoted already a couple of times.

If the OP had taken this to their CoC yesterday, they'd, in all likelihood, have an answer right now.

This ain't friggin' rocket appliances (rickyism). Let's not convolute this to more than it is.


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## BorisK (26 Mar 2014)

:nod: :smile: @  ^ Rickyism use.


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## rocksteady (26 Mar 2014)

Looks like it has become a personal dick swinging contest from Ottawa.  Still no word yet but apparently the guy before me had to submit his leave passes and travel receipts.  I have yet to get an answer but my supervisor asked me if I was flying or driving.  It will be interesting to see how this turns out but I will be submitting a memo stating family and financial commitments if they try and send me and they will be paying my travel costs.  I was told by our unit clerk they would have to pay the full cost of the travel and they cannot force me to cancel at my expense.  Ottawa seems adament about sending someone from our unit and since they couldn't get the first guy they are trying to get me. 

I would be surprised if in this financial climate that they would still want to send me.


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## rocksteady (26 Mar 2014)

So I received the final word today and I'm to go on PLQ Mod 2.  I was also told that I should try and cancel all my travel plans and try and get reimbursement and then submit a claim for whatever I can't get reimbursed.  So apparently PLQ Mod 2 is more important than an approved leave pass with travel plans and financial commitments.

Some advice with what I should do with respect to my travel plans would be appreciated.


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## PMedMoe (26 Mar 2014)

Seems your only course of action is to cancel (or amend, if possible) your travel plans.

Get the reference(s) regarding reimbursement from the unit clerk.  Also ask what kind of claim you need to do/submit.  Check to see if the companies you have booked with have cancellation fees or if they are willing to give you credit to be used at a later date.  Cancel whatever you have to, save ALL receipts (and make copies) and then submit the claim with the reference attached.  You'll probably want to include a copy of the approved leave pass and the travel itinerary to prove it was booked after the leave was approved.

Hope that helps.


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## DAA (26 Mar 2014)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> So I received the final word today and I'm to go on PLQ Mod 2.  I was also told that I should try and cancel all my travel plans and try and get reimbursement and then submit a claim for whatever I can't get reimbursed.  So apparently PLQ Mod 2 is more important than an approved leave pass with travel plans and financial commitments.
> 
> Some advice with what I should do with respect to my travel plans would be appreciated.



Couple of options.  One would be to try and get your money back, in which case, your Unit is on the hook for any Penalties/out of pocket expenses you incurred.

Not sure if it is on the "books" any more but another option that "might" still be available, is to rebook your travel plans for after the course and if you incur a higher cost for the identical travel, the difference is or used to be reimburseable as well.


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## Tibbson (26 Mar 2014)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> So I received the final word today and I'm to go on PLQ Mod 2.  I was also told that I should try and cancel all my travel plans and try and get reimbursement and then submit a claim for whatever I can't get reimbursed.  So apparently PLQ Mod 2 is more important than an approved leave pass with travel plans and financial commitments.
> 
> Some advice with what I should do with respect to my travel plans would be appreciated.



There seems to be a fault in the system here somewhere.  Leave passes have a number of purposes, the first of which is to request leave from your CoC and to have them authorize that leave thereby allowing you to make arrangements for travel and rest.  IMHO your CoC is failing you by not backing their earlier approval of your leave and I know from first hand knowledge that others would see your leave pass for what it was and have your course attendance rescheduled. 

As to what you should do with respect to your travel plans, as you said above "I was also told that I should try and cancel all my travel plans and try and get reimbursement and then submit a claim for whatever I can't get reimbursed."  Seems like a pretty straight forward set of instructions.

The only thing I would strongly suggest you do is to get those directions in writing.  I can see some bean counter later on calling the instructions you received into question and trying to deny any reimbursement.


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## DAA (26 Mar 2014)

Usually when I see stuff like this, the unit doesn't seem to realize that their very own O&M Budget is on the hook for the money.  Once they find out, they suddenly have a change of heart.


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## Jarnhamar (26 Mar 2014)

Learning how to take care of your subordinates is important. 
Now cancel your plans to introduce your family to your son and go learn how to take care of your 'family'.


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## Tibbson (26 Mar 2014)

DAA said:
			
		

> Usually when I see stuff like this, the unit doesn't seem to realize that their very own O&M Budget is on the hook for the money.  Once they find out, they suddenly have a change of heart.



My brother had a case a few years ago where his Unit was going to insist on putting a member on course when he had leave planned but in this case the course was near the end of the leave year and the Unit realized they would have to pay out for the unused leave time AND for any fees the member uncured by changing/cancelling his plans.  In that case money won out where common sense failed and the member was allowed to go on leave.


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## DAA (26 Mar 2014)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> My brother had a case a few years ago where his Unit was going to insist on putting a member on course when he had leave planned but in this case the course was near the end of the leave year and the Unit realized they would have to pay out for the unused leave time AND for any fees the member uncured by changing/cancelling his plans.  In that case money won out where common sense failed and the member was allowed to go on leave.



Ultimately and at the end of the day, it's a unit decision.  But still, from my perspective and if it was me, I would be thinking "vacation" or "career course".  Yes, family is important but sometimes you need to make that sacrifice.  Whether or not the course is run once or ten times a year, it's still a "career" course and a prerequisite for the rank level.

Not to mention......



			
				rocksteady said:
			
		

> Yes, this is the whole story.  There is really nothing else to tell.  I have never been offered PLQ before and I have been waiting since 2012 when I got promoted to go on it.  I just simply have travel plans booked.



Coming up on two years as an "A/L".  As a Supr, I would have been pushing to get them loaded well before now!


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## upandatom (27 Mar 2014)

To me, 
This is a bit BS. 

I understand thw you signed the dotted line, its a career course etc. 

But, you have been a MCpl A/L since 2012, I was promoted in 12 as well, completed my MOD 1-4, then waiting for the 5, then it changed to the Mod 1-4 deal. You can not exactly tell me that there was not an opportunity for you to do this course since 2012, I had multiple friends just complete one in Aldershot, and even before that there was several running in Pet, Even during mine in Pet there was several more, before and after. This is only two training areas, Gagetown runs them, as well as Wainwright, im gonna guess Shilo has some kind of PLQ set up? (Shilo is the only one I dont know that anyone has completed one there in the past two years since the system changed)

I think its a CoC failure here (god forbid I state that) since 2012, your CoC should of had you on the first one possible (presuming health). Not "last minute lets cause some needless paperwork" here. There wasnt a huge backlog either of people that needed it. 

The good thing about the new system is- you can do MOD1, then MOD 2 and then a few weeks/months/etc and finish up with 3 then with 4. Each is their own course code and qualification- (due to PLQ-I and PLQ-A being different Mod 4) 

For anyone else that could end up reading this thread, fight to get on your PLQ, pay attention to the course calender, if you know there is nothing major for your unit coming up, and you are on the bubble for a promotion, say hey, can I get loaded onto this. Because with all honesty, I had people on my course that were not getting their leaf within the near future and were there to fill space. 

This really does start with MCpls Lower SNCOs saying we have this guy this woman, this soldier, twiddling there thumb or screwing around for a few weeks, lets see if this can happen.


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## rocksteady (27 Mar 2014)

I'm curious if I have grounds for a complaint against the CM for this issue.  Thoughts?


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## Kat Stevens (27 Mar 2014)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> I'm curious if I have grounds for a complaint against the CM for this issue.  Thoughts?



My personal thoughts are to be very careful, you may be painting a large glowing target on your back.  Choose if this is the hill you're willing to die on.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (27 Mar 2014)

I'm curious, have you been offered this course before?


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## rocksteady (27 Mar 2014)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> I'm curious, have you been offered this course before?



Nope first time they have ever offered (lol) it.


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## Crispy Bacon (27 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> The good thing about the new system is- you can do MOD1, then MOD 2 and then a few weeks/months/etc and finish up with 3 then with 4. Each is their own course code and qualification- (due to PLQ-I and PLQ-A being different Mod 4)



True, however the new PLQ mod 4 needs to be completed within a set time frame of starting Mod 1.  So by going on Mod 1, then 2, you're saying you're willing to go on 3 and 4 within that time frame (I believe it's either 12 or 18 months).


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## CountDC (27 Mar 2014)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> I'm curious if I have grounds for a complaint against the CM for this issue.  Thoughts?



Complain about what?  That your CM did his/her job and loaded you on a career course that you need in order to advance to a higher rank? Completing the PLQ does put you that much closer to your next promotion.  Who knows - maybe you will get promoted before the other guy that was number one for the course and got out of it. 

Go on the course and reschedule your leave.  Document every penny this cost you and submit a CF52 claim.  Make sure you do not miss anything - booking, cancellation fees, credit card interest come to mind. Was there any currency exchange as you could also submit for a loss on exchange if there was any.  Submit it all as they are all expenses incurred for the trip they are making you cancel. Do you have written notice that you are recalled from leave or your leave has been cancelled by the CO?  That needs to be attached to the claim along with the leave pass.  Right now documents, reciepts and credit card statements are your best friends.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> This really does start with MCpls Lower SNCOs saying we have this guy this woman, this soldier, twiddling there thumb or screwing around for a few weeks, lets see if this can happen.



Lower Snr NCOs?  WTF it that? 

Only Sgt's and PO2's are Snr NCOs.  Every good Jnr NCO knows that, right?

WO, MWO and CWO are Warrant Officers, not NCOs.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Mar 2014)

For the OP, if you are flying, particularly with Air Canada, you might be hooped a bit.  

Short story;  I was loaded on my trade 3s course in Winnipeg, original start was late Nov '09.  Everything was booked, including my civie flight home for Christmas and my service flight back to the Peg.  Course was moved to the right, new start Jan '10.  I enquired with Air Canada - no refund, credit for another flight only.  Spoke to Wing OR.  Technically they couldn't reimburse me, because the Air Canada policy allowed the 'credit' to carry for a year before it was gone so technically I wasn't out any money yet.  Worked out for me, I used it for a trip home later in the course before the 60 days were up for my LTA. 

So, if you do cancel your flights and rebook, you should get reimbursed the rebooking fee amount.  Hotels can be cancelled so you won't get anything back except a cancellation fee amount, if there is one.  Other than that, I wouldn't be counting on seeing a dime reimbursed because you didn't actually travel.  Just as a heads up, kinda thing. 

My 2 cents on your situation;  go do your PLQ, reschedule the visit.  Refusing the course could be grounds to have your Leaf stripped, and let me tell you it sucks going backwards rank-wise (former Sgt, dropped to Cpl for my OT).  Your family will still be there.  The CAF has likely been paying you as a A/L Jack for a while now. Go earn it and be done of it.   For the record, I am NOT a fan of the "get Leaf, then get qual" stuff.  I did my CLC long before I got my Leaf the first time.  :2c:

Sure I know it's easy to say that, but FWIW I missed my first anniversary while on a career course.  Just part of the job.

Good luck, and as Kat said earlier, decide what hill you want to die on and if this is it.  Corporate memory can come back at a later date and kick you in the ass.


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## garb811 (27 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> To me,
> This is a bit BS.
> 
> I understand thw you signed the dotted line, its a career course etc.
> ...


Uhm...no. At least for the MP Branch.  

This is not a Chain of Command failure, the Chain of Command has limited input on getting people loaded, it is the sole purview of the CM to load career courses.  Why?  Because at this point in time, 95% of the MP Branch are promoted A/L, particularly with regard to PLP(L), ILP and ALP.  As a result we have a huge backlog of people requiring the courses and all levels of the chain of command are aware of this and they know better than to bug the CM about getting newly appointed A/L MCpl Bloggins course loaded as he really isn't doing much right then because all the CM is going to do is laugh and tell the person to call back in two and a half years if it hasn't happened yet.

Not sure how it is working for other Branches but for us, the CM gets allocated "x" number of positions per course.  Due to the backlog, they *will* be filled in order of the CMs priority list.  First up are A/L pers merit listed for promotion to Sgt, which happens.  Next up are pers selected for OUTCAN postings or postings to High Op Tempo units such as CFPSU or the Air Marshals in the next APS.  After that it is pers who are 2+  years A/L.  Then they start working on the rest.  This can suck for certain people, I know of people who have received less than a weeks notice of their course loading due to the initial candidate going on MELs.

Direction has come down that Mod 2-4 will be completed sequentially.  While it is nice in theory to say that you can do them whenever within the time frame due to the course code and qualification, logistically it is a nightmare to coordinate and our CM, at least, won't normally allow it.

Finally, if you haven't attained substantive rank within three years, you will lose it.  I have seen it happen and the member lost the redress of grievance.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Mar 2014)

Oh, I thought it was 2 yrs to get the qual by the regs (which may/may not be followed rigorously  8)).


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## McG (27 Mar 2014)

rocksteady said:
			
		

> I'm curious if I have grounds for a complaint against the CM for this issue.  Thoughts?


No.  It was/is your CO's decision to cancel your leave or not.  If you have cause to grieve, then your grievance is within the unit.

Don't make any changes to your leave plans until you have the cancel order from the CO.  Bureaucrats will try to avoid the costs of covering your expenses if dates on the paperwork don't have the right chronology.


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## TCM621 (28 Mar 2014)

Have you talked to the padre? From my point of view the finicial aspect is irrelevant, they pay period. The real issue is the part about meeting your son for the first time. Without digging into your personal life here, their has to be a back story there and I bet it would be enough to get the padre involved. 
Also, he is not declining PLQ, he is asking for permission to get put on another course due to a very important family commitment which was approved in advance.
His family or his career shouldn't have to suffer because some people couldn't be bothered to look in mite and peoplesoft.


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## Kat Stevens (28 Mar 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Have you talked to the padre? From my point of view the finicial aspect is irrelevant, they pay period. The real issue is the part about meeting your son for the first time. Without digging into your personal life here, their has to be a back story there and I bet it would be enough to get the padre involved.
> Also, he is not declining PLQ, he is asking for permission to get put on another course due to a very important family commitment which was approved in advance.
> His family or his career shouldn't have to suffer because some people couldn't be bothered to look in mite and peoplesoft.



See above about choosing hills and whatnot.  Get a rep as "that guy" and have a pretty crappy future.


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## upandatom (28 Mar 2014)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Lower Snr NCOs?  WTF it that?
> 
> Only Sgt's and PO2's are Snr NCOs.  Every good Jnr NCO knows that, right?
> 
> WO, MWO and CWO are Warrant Officers, not NCOs.



Sgts and WOs are the ones that will, could and should be fighting for their guys to get on course. Not to just leave them hanging until last minute.


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## Fishbone Jones (28 Mar 2014)

upandatom said:
			
		

> Sgts and WOs are the ones that will, could and should be fighting for their guys to get on course. Not to just leave them hanging until last minute.


The process starts with the potential candidate and you MCpls. If you're a MCpl, it starts with you discussing career plans with your Supervisors. This isn't a one way street and we're not mind readers.


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## Griffon (28 Mar 2014)

Slightly off topic, but supervisors should be having conversations with corporals that are showing leadership potential, suggesting that they request being loaded on a PLQ themselves when having their CM interview.  If the member is suitable for promotion, and shows the interest to get loaded, the CM will most likely oblige provided slots are available.  Doesn't always happen of course, but it definitely doesn't hurt to ask, and I'm sure the CM would love to field a question other than "Am I posted?".  Same goes for newly appointed MCpls.  It is indeed very true that the member can have a good deal of influence on the management of their own career (subject to service requirements of course).

As for this particular case, it is a shame that the course loading wasn't altered earlier, but is most likely due to the fact that the OP was promoted two years ago.  Once the CoC backed the CM by ordering the OP off leave, the line was drawn in the sand.  Given the circumstances, I don't think it will end well if you try to fight this one.  Don't hold a grudge, it is what it is, just go get it done and be glad that your career has been given the opportunity to advance.


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## George Wallace (28 Mar 2014)

Griffon said:
			
		

> Slightly off topic, but supervisors should be having conversations with corporals that are showing leadership potential, suggesting that they request being loaded on a PLQ themselves when having their CM interview.  If the member is suitable for promotion, and shows the interest to get loaded, the CM will most likely oblige provided slots are available.  Doesn't always happen of course, but it definitely doesn't hurt to ask, and I'm sure the CM would love to field a question other than "Am I posted?".  Same goes for newly appointed MCpls.  It is indeed very true that the member can have a good deal of influence on the management of their own career (subject to service requirements of course).
> 
> As for this particular case, it is a shame that the course loading wasn't altered earlier, but is most likely due to the fact that the OP was promoted two years ago.  Once the CoC backed the CM by ordering the OP off leave, the line was drawn in the sand.  Given the circumstances, I don't think it will end well if you try to fight this one.  Don't hold a grudge, it is what it is, just go get it done and be glad that your career has been given the opportunity to advance.



???

Supervisors should be doing this all along.  They should be, at the very minimum, talking to their subordinates' on a quarterly basis when they do their PDR's and then PER's.  In the Cbt Arms, the Troop Ldr/Pl Ldr should also be conducting regular interviews with their troops.  The shirking of this "administration" hurts the member.  The old UER system of keeping track of your personnel and their welfare has disappeared with digitalization and reliance on MITE and other systems, along with the lax practices of junior leaders (NCO and officer) to populate those databases.


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## Griffon (28 Mar 2014)

It wasn't something that was discussed with members when I was a corporal in Cold Lake, you just went on your PLQ when you were told to.  It actually seemed more normal for people to avoid gong on the course.  People were amazed when I told them I asked for mine, it just wasn't normal there.  Not sure if it was just an "Air Force thing", or an isolated attitude due to the environment, but it was never suggested to me that I ask.


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## TCM621 (29 Mar 2014)

Kat Stevens said:
			
		

> See above about choosing hills and whatnot.  Get a rep as "that guy" and have a pretty crappy future.



Personally, and this is obviously based on the little information we have, anyone who judges me harshly for choosing "meeting my son for the first time" over PLQ mod 2 isn't worth worrying about. Their priorities will never match with mine and I would just deal with it as best I can. This isn't I wanna go see motley crew or go to Jamaica for a holiday, this is his son. 
If it was anything other than a major family commitment, I would totally agree with people who say don't bother just get the money and the course.


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## MJP (29 Mar 2014)

Tcm621 said:
			
		

> Personally, and this is obviously based on the little information we have, anyone who judges me harshly for choosing "meeting my son for the first time" over PLQ mod 2 isn't worth worrying about. Their priorities will never match with mine and I would just deal with it as best I can. This isn't I wanna go see motley crew or go to Jamaica for a holiday, this is his son.
> If it was anything other than a major family commitment, I would totally agree with people who say don't bother just get the money and the course.



He isn't meeting his son for the first time, their family is.



			
				rocksteady said:
			
		

> I have an approved leave pass and they want to put me on PLQ Mod 2 during the time.  I already have flights for my wife, son and I and a hotel booked and paid for.  On top of things my family is supposed to meet our son for the first time which is why we are taking the trip and they have booked time off work for us to come.


That said in the case you stated I agree with you. 

 As others have said, if I was OP and my unit wanted me on a crse (especially when it is a crse that is run fairly often like PLQ) that bad, I would wait for my CO to order me off leave so they can pay.


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## TCM621 (29 Mar 2014)

MJP said:
			
		

> He isn't meeting his son for the first time, their family is.
> That said in the case you stated I agree with you.
> 
> As others have said, if I was OP and my unit wanted me on a crse (especially when it is a crse that is run fairly often like PLQ) that bad, I would wait for my CO to order me off leave so they can pay.



OK that makes a lot more sense. In that case, get reimbursed, go on course and take a vacation after.


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## upandatom (31 Mar 2014)

recceguy said:
			
		

> The process starts with the potential candidate and you MCpls. If you're a MCpl, it starts with you discussing career plans with your Supervisors. This isn't a one way street and we're not mind readers.



I fully agree, I did not mean to leave out the MCpl from the equation. When push comes to shove, its the MCpl that pushes it up, but the Sgt. and WO saying- Listen we have this, we can improve and give this member a chance to prove themselves. They are the ones that give it the muscle to push it up, they have the voice to be heard. Not that MCpl, or even the Cpl. 

Im not seeing that anymore. More often then naught, seeing the chasing of personal ambitions and goals, regardless of who or what is in the way. 

(I am not saying *ALL* Snr NCOs are this way by any means, before some of you tend to twist my words and bend them like a spoon) 


All I am sayinhg is that I am seeing more and more of this 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_leader

Which scares me because if that is what the Junior NCM sees, they see it as ok, and it becomes a norm other then exception. All I can do as a leader is avoid that and look out for my guys and find that good balance, that "yes this sucks, but remember we had this and this which was good"


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## Jarnhamar (31 Mar 2014)

Show up on course and record every infraction, rule being bent and improper comment you hear


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## Navy_Pete (1 Apr 2014)

Did the PLQ selection process change?  From what I remember from a few years ago, there is a joining package that includes an interview with the divO to pick up things like that, and once it's done, the unit is supposed to confirm the selection.

Had a few folks loaded on PLQ that for several reasons wasn't the best time for them (required for a deployement, starting PATA, etc), and it wasn't an issue to get the course loading date changed.

Think with all the PLQ courses running all the time, and the budget shortages where the unit would have to pick up for canceling leave, seems like a no brainer.


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## CountDC (4 Apr 2014)

Navy + Deployment always is priority ;D

PATA - taboo that is unusual to mess with.  Bad Press. :threat:

Unit Budgets - CM doesn't care.  CO does and either didn't understand the impact or decided it was worth it for members career.

Personally I am not a fan of the A/L promotions that became the norm in the Reg F.  I am aware of at least one case where the mbr was A/L for 5 years and then reverted as he was not able to do the course.  One year I saw at least one reduction a month back to LS as the members did not obtain the course.  Almost every one of them were due to course failures after two tries (including the 5 year).    Stop abusing what was meant as a reward system/temp solution and fix the problem by getting people qualified before advancing them. :2c:


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## garb811 (4 Apr 2014)

CountDC said:
			
		

> ...Stop abusing what was meant as a reward system/temp solution and fix the problem by getting people qualified before advancing them. :2c:


At this point it isn't abusing the system, it is a matter of survival, at least for some trades.  Decisions made WRT FRP (not just the uncontrolled releases but the halt on production of jnr members and gutting of the training establishments as a result) are still resonating, badly.


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## upandatom (7 Apr 2014)

garb811 said:
			
		

> At this point it isn't abusing the system, it is a matter of survival, at least for some trades.  Decisions made WRT FRP (not just the uncontrolled releases but the halt on production of jnr members and gutting of the training establishments as a result) are still resonating, badly.



Agreed, and throw in the end of Afghanistan cutbacks, and that awful PRETC mistake that so many people were lost in the system and released for the sole reason of that place. 

I have had no issues being promoted then on a PLQ, I was still able to do my job, and it even aided me on course. 

Add in the cutbacks, I can see people going alot longer without this course.


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