# Cadets vs Reserves for RMC applicant



## Cadet Piper (16 Sep 2010)

I've been in Army Cadets for the past four years and have had a fairly good career. However, I've reached the age that I can apply for the Primary Reserve. My main focus is on getting accepted into RMC therefore I want to make the right choice as to if I should stay in Army Cadets or go to the Reserve. 

I've asked my CIC Officers at my Army Cadet Corps and all have told me the same thing, "RMC prefers ex Cadets as opposed to ex Reservists. The transfer from Reserve to RMC will take much a long time as well so you won't get in on time. You're better off staying in Cadets." 

Would joining the Reserves affect my application to RMC negatively? Am I better off staying in the Cadet program?

PS: I used the search option to find any related threads but found none. If there is a thread in which this has been covered could anyone point me there?


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## brihard (16 Sep 2010)

I would suggest that few of your CIC officers are likely in a position to comment authoritatively on how it normally goes for those in the primary reserve who apply to RMC. I know guys who've done it successfully.

You either will or will not merit admission to RMC. Cadets v. Reserves will not be a deal breaker. Don't let them 'scare' you out of leaving Cadets. If RMC finds you suitable, the component transfer out of the reserves will happen. In the interim, the cadets have a vested interest in trying to keep you around.

Ask yourself instead what YOU want. RMC ought to look favourably on either, however it will depend on what *you* make of it. I cannot help but think that previous service in the actual military would be looked upon favourably by RMC.

Personally, I'd go reserves, gain some actual military experience. Who knows, maybe even an opportunity to deploy before you go off to school. In any case, going PRes for a few years will be a bit of an eye opener, and - most importantly, I think - will put you in the shoes of those who one day you will lead. That cannot be undervalued. You will experience good and bad officers firsthand, and gain an appreciation for the intelligence and abilities of soldiers that you otherwise might not get so easily.

To make sure any biases are clear, I'm a junior NCO in the reserves, and a fourth year undergrad student at a civilian university, not in ROTP. I'm also a former cadet. So take it for what it's worth.


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## readytogo (16 Sep 2010)

As i understand the system(im not a recruiter) if you join the reserves the only option available to you without a withdrawal from the Pres is RETP program (Reserve entry training program) in which you must foot the bill for your education or the CEOTP (continuing education officer training program).So based on that id say that staying in the cadets and applying ROTP is the best way to go.  Im hoping someone out there will tell me im wrong though!!

RTG


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## GGHG_Cadet (16 Sep 2010)

Brihard is bang on. There are plenty of ex reservists and cadets at RMC, everyone picked their own route based on what was right for them. Personally I stuck with cadets because the circumstances I was in were very good. On the other hand, some people only did reserves because that's what they wanted to do. Only you can choose. 

A little aside, if you CT to the Regs/RMC from Reserves you are paid more than the average OCdt.


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## brihard (16 Sep 2010)

RMC_Cadet said:
			
		

> Brihard is bang on. There are plenty of ex reservists and cadets at RMC, everyone picked their own route based on what was right for them. Personally I stuck with cadets because the circumstances I was in were very good. On the other hand, some people only did reserves because that's what they wanted to do. Only you can choose.
> 
> A little aside, *if you CT to the Regs/RMC from Reserves you are paid more than the average OCdt.*



THIS.

I've got a buddy who just went ROTP as a reserve corporal. He's making corporal's pay and getting his education completely paid for under ROTP.

Readytogo- note that if you join the reserves and later go ROTP, you simply component transfer into the regular force. You are correct that reserve officers can get educated at RMC at a bit of a discount and pay the balance, but you can simply change over from reserves to reg and get the full deal.

(OK, nothing happens 'simply', but it's perfectly reasonable and normal for such to happen.)


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## readytogo (16 Sep 2010)

Thats the answers ive been trying to get out of CFRC for the last week Brihard, is he making corporal pay under an A, B, or C contract?


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## brihard (16 Sep 2010)

readytogo said:
			
		

> Thats the answers ive been trying to get out of CFRC for the last week Brihard, is he making corporal pay under an A, B, or C contract?



He's not. He is now a reg force officer cadet doing ROTP, and he is getting RegF Cpl's pay as an officer cadet due to his former reserve service as a Cpl.


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## Chang (20 Sep 2010)

This was posted in another thread and I think it offers good advice in your situation as well. I always regretted joining the reserves too early as the component transfer process does take quite awhile (i'm personally on my 7th month of waiting.) Also, from what I've noticed, regular applications gets processed much faster then component transfers unfortunately.

http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/27638/post-956878.html#msg956878


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## Cadet Piper (22 Sep 2010)

Thank you for the link Globemaster, very insightful. And to all, thank you for the input. 

However, all may be in vain. Most if not all units in my city (Ottawa) are not taking applications. I was told by the local recruiters that if I don't get in around September that they will probably have positions open in April. By the time April rolls around, I would theoretically have to start my transfer from Reserve to Regular Force (RMC application) which would be just plain silly considering I would have just joined. 

The reason why I want to leave the Army Cadet program is simple: I'm tired of playing quasi-military.


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## brihard (22 Sep 2010)

Cadet Piper said:
			
		

> The reason why I want to leave the Army Cadet program is simple: I'm tired of playing quasi-military.



I hope everyone appreciates how much I'm resisting the almost mandatory dig at the Foot Guards.  ;D


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## C-Aitchison (2 Oct 2010)

Cadet Piper said:
			
		

> Thank you for the link Globemaster, very insightful. And to all, thank you for the input.
> 
> However, all may be in vain. Most if not all units in my city (Ottawa) are not taking applications. I was told by the local recruiters that if I don't get in around September that they will probably have positions open in April. By the time April rolls around, I would theoretically have to start my transfer from Reserve to Regular Force (RMC application) which would be just plain silly considering I would have just joined.
> 
> The reason why I want to leave the Army Cadet program is simple: I'm tired of playing *quasi-military*.




Quite agreed there my good Tent 6 Friend.

The reason I am going through my reserve application process is because I plan on applying for a CT to RMC, and I want the extra money.


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## lethalLemon (3 Oct 2010)

I am also an Army Cadet (waiting for my PRes application to be processed) and it's pretty plain and simple.

CIC will do anything and feed you all kinds of BS to get you to stay and pretty much waste more time of your life, or you can open the other door - apply to the PRes, do a soldier's job AND get paid!!

That way too, when you get to RMC, you'll know how things work in the military and you'll have an edge over those that just came right out of civvie high-school or a civvie university to do post-graduate studies and serve as a CF Officer.

You'll have more open doors.
Don't hesitate, make the right decision for you!

(I personally waited too long to apply for the PRes... now I'm kinda in this slump and disappointed in myself that I didn't do it earlier)


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## JMesh (3 Oct 2010)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> CIC will do anything and feed you all kinds of BS to get you to stay and pretty much waste more time of your life...



I hardly think that is an appropriate comment. As a CIC Officer myself, I have encouraged cadets coming to me about this to explore their options and do whatever they feel is best. I have even helped them search up the information they have been looking for to help give them a fair view. I believe there is merit in both cadets and PRes, and would never try to talk someone out of either one. I also know for a fact that many of my fellow CIC officers act in the same manner, as I have seen this first hand. Don't generalize all people in a group based on your experiences.

EDIT to add: Also, I hardly think that the cadet program is a waste of time in your life. You can take it as an opportunity to improve your knowledge, experience and leadership abilities to grow into a better citizen, and if you do join the forces, a more knowledgeable entrant (though you would still have much to learn). Furthermore, IAW CATO 13-07, it is possible to be a member of both the CCO and the PRes. Quoting CATO 13-07,

[quote author=CATO 13-07, para 2]
Membership in a cadet unit does not legally bar enrolment in the Primary Reserve.
[/quote]

and

[quote author=CATO 13-07, para 3]
Membership in Cadets or the Primary Reserve should be re-evaluated, however, if the cadet/reservist is unable to deal with the
increased responsibility. The cadet unit CO shall determine whether continued involvement as a cadet is appropriate.
[/quote]


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## SevenSixTwo (3 Oct 2010)

Odd question but slightly on topic:

If he did join the reserves could he not just apply for ED&T and then go to RMC while the transfer etc goes through?


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## George Wallace (3 Oct 2010)

I don't think you understand fully what ED&T is.  If he was going to go to RMC, I am sure he would like to get paid.  ED&T would mean that he would be Exempt Drill and Training, and thus excused Parading, therefore NOT being paid.  It is a method to stop unnecessary NES processing of pers who need to stop Parading for a period of time due to job or education commitments.


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## lethalLemon (3 Oct 2010)

JMesh said:
			
		

> I hardly think that is an appropriate comment. As a CIC Officer myself, I have encouraged cadets coming to me about this to explore their options and do whatever they feel is best. I have even helped them search up the information they have been looking for to help give them a fair view. I believe there is merit in both cadets and PRes, and would never try to talk someone out of either one. I also know for a fact that many of my fellow CIC officers act in the same manner, as I have seen this first hand. Don't generalize all people in a group based on your experiences.
> 
> EDIT to add: Also, I hardly think that the cadet program is a waste of time in your life. You can take it as an opportunity to improve your knowledge, experience and leadership abilities to grow into a better citizen, and if you do join the forces, a more knowledgeable entrant (though you would still have much to learn). Furthermore, IAW CATO 13-07, it is possible to be a member of both the CCO and the PRes. Quoting CATO 13-07,
> 
> and



Okay... So there are some CIC officers that are an exception to that. Have I faced any? No. In my total (almost) 6 years as a cadet I have yet to encounter a CIC officer who thought nothing but of the success of their career and the corps rather than allowing an open-door for members to talk about possible career changes/advancements; and with the whole "waste of your time" - after 4 years it just starts to get redundant and the 3 units I've been a member of failed to make my time and the rest of the corps time exciting and have and Army touch to it. It started to become like going to school for another 2-3 hours at night; except you wore a uniform and did drill. However since I had been designated the A/RSM I have made some drastic improvements to my current unit and really put a whole lot of my time into it. I'll be honest, I can't imagine my life without the cadet program; my most memorable moments, greatest memories and remarkable experiences were all thanks to the Cadet program; and I developed skills that many people won't have at my age (or even after Univ) when apply for jobs etc. But the blood, sweat and tears I've put into this program compared to what I got out of it is small and makes me wish I was getting paid for all that time and hard work.

But all-in-all I have nothing against the Cadet program - sure I have a lot to complain about... but that's something I'll keep to myself.

The PRes will present a different challenge everyday and will always give you something to look forward to. The training is amazing, the battle drills and etc; plus a paycheque and some wonderful benefits to go with it all. Pretty much seals the deal.


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## SevenSixTwo (4 Oct 2010)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I don't think you understand fully what ED&T is.  If he was going to go to RMC, I am sure he would like to get paid.  ED&T would mean that he would be Exempt Drill and Training, and thus excused Parading, therefore NOT being paid.  It is a method to stop unnecessary NES processing of pers who need to stop Parading for a period of time due to job or education commitments.



If he went to the Reserves it would take a period of time before the transfer to an officer program (if he wanted to do one) would take place. Not everyone lives in Kingston, Ontario and thus would need to be in one of the officer training programs or be on ED&T and simply collecting your $2000 every year and doing training in the summer.

It's his personal choice on how he wants to do it. If he was going for an officer training plan he might as well apply for that now instead of doing the reserves at all. If you had read the OP you would have seen that he was asking how to make being in the reserves as a NCM and then going to RMC could work in a short time period.


I have no beef with you George but please don't insult my intelligence.


EDIT: Post based on the fact that hiring is closed until April 2011 unless red trade etc. If hiring isn't closed I apologize for this. However, if it was he would be in his final year of high school anyways and might as well go the ROTP/RETP/CEOTP route.


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## Jarnhamar (4 Oct 2010)

lethalLemon said:
			
		

> The PRes will present a different challenge everyday and will always give you something to look forward to. The training is amazing, the battle drills and etc; plus a paycheque and some wonderful benefits to go with it all. Pretty much seals the deal.



You should wait until you join the reserves before you talk about how amazing the training and "battle drills" are.  4 dudes standing on a wooden pallet pretending it's a G-Wagon, picking it up and moving it around then placing it down, standing on it and "dismounting" yelling "bang-bang" isn't awesome.

Don't get me wrong some of it IS pretty awesome but there WILL be times when things totally suck to don't be surprised by it. 

I hope you make it into the reserves but the last thing we need is another complainer so leave that at the door when you join.  And don't try and make fun of the cadets to try and fit in better, it'll impress new guys and there will be some laughs about it but over all it just looks disloyal. don't burn bridges.


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## SevenSixTwo (4 Oct 2010)

Grimaldus said:
			
		

> You should wait until you join the reserves before you talk about how amazing the training and "battle drills" are.  4 dudes standing on a wooden pallet pretending it's a G-Wagon, picking it up and moving it around then placing it down, standing on it and "dismounting" yelling "bang-bang" isn't awesome.
> 
> Don't get me wrong some of it IS pretty awesome but there WILL be times when things totally suck to don't be surprised by it.
> 
> I hope you make it into the reserves but the last thing we need is another complainer so leave that at the door when you join.  And don't try and make fun of the cadets to try and fit in better, it'll impress new guys and there will be some laughs about it but over all it just looks disloyal. don't burn bridges.



What occupation doesn't involve 80% +/- suckage?


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## Bonko (4 Oct 2010)

It's hard to say which one is better to be honest, yes if you go PRes and decide later on that you want RMC you will get paid more than say an standard OCdt fresh out of high school or whatever. Also you'll gain some respect for what the majority of what NCO's go through on a "daily" basis. Also as a PRes you'll get your foot in the door and gain an idea of what to expect if you decide to go reg force. Ultimately the decision is yours!


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## Good2Golf (4 Oct 2010)

From close secondhand experience, I would say that if you are not able to join a PRes unit, and get your BMQ, BMQ(L) and preferably a DP1 course, then consider staying in Cadets.  This would mean if you joined the reserves now, it should be with an aim to applying for the ROTP 2012/2013 period (trg start for Recruit Camp of August 2012).  This would get you time to be trained and establish a few PTE pay incentives, for which you would be granted "vested pay rights" upon your transfer to the RegF as an OCdt at RMC.  It's a notable difference in pay, for example an ROTP OCdt makes ~$1510/month and a Pte(T)1 makes ~$2670/month.

As others have noted, however, the Component Transfer (CT) process does take longer than "off-the-street" recruitment into the ROTP, so you would have to start the ROTP application process early...Oct-Nov 2011 at the latest for an Aug 2012 start at RMC.

2 more ¢

Regards
G2G


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## The_Falcon (4 Oct 2010)

You also don't need to go to RMC to enroll in the ROTP, thought I should mention that since no one else did.


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## KellGunner (7 Oct 2010)

If your thinking of giving a career in the CF a try i would suggest going into the PRes as it will give you an idea of what your getting yourself into.  I have seen many a person go through the system with a certain idea of what the CF does and have it totally blown out of the water when they went PRes as they soon learned, that we don't always give candy to kids and help out the neighbor next door during a time of distress.  My CT took less than 2 months then again i was not apply ROTP so that might have an influence on the time line.


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## gun runner (8 Oct 2010)

CIC will do anything and feed you all kinds of BS to get you to stay and pretty much waste more time of your life 




This statement is truly distasteful, and offensive. i am a CIC officer, and have counselled my senior cadets that were considering joining PRes/Reg force service to follow their heart and good for them for the consideration! I have never,ever told my cadets that I would prefer them to stay where they do not want to be, whatever the reason. I was a cadet, and an artillery reservist back before the DOD,and feel I speak with some experience.Ubique


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## gun runner (8 Oct 2010)

[quote  -  and with the whole "waste of your time" - after 4 years it just starts to get redundant and the 3 units I've been a member of failed to make my time and the rest of the corps time exciting and have and Army touch to it. It started to become like going to school for another 2-3 hours at night; except you wore a uniform and did drill.  
But all-in-all I have nothing against the Cadet program - sure I have a lot to complain about... but that's something I'll keep to myself.]

 It sure seems that you have a lot to complain about , and it is the corps staff that you should be starting with. The whole program is under reinvention, and from what I have seen it is and will be a better system than the one I took in the '80's. The dynamics of the system have been changed to reflect the current dysfunctions of the system. There are going to be bugs in the system, but all-in-all it is better. If the training staff cannot teach a dynamic class to maintain the interest, then it is their fault if they lose cadets to 'another three hours of school"! The CIC are supposed to help this problem by teaching in a manner that encourages hands on participation..not more lecture.My two cents.Ubique


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## Northalbertan (11 Oct 2010)

What Gun Runner said.  You have made a very large generalization based upon the interaction you had with a few people.   I too encourage my cadets (when they ask) to broaden their military horizons.  I have gone as far as helping to arrange a question and answer session between our affiliated unit CLO and the cadet AND his parents (who were naturally curious about what he would be up to) so that he could make up his mind if he wanted to go ahead and try the reserves out.  

Also you can no longer be a cadet and be a member of the primary reserve.  That just changed a few months ago and I can't remember the CATO right now but it is fact.  Some folks are worried about the "child soldier" thing.   :


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## Neill McKay (12 Oct 2010)

Northalbertan said:
			
		

> Also you can no longer be a cadet and be a member of the primary reserve.  That just changed a few months ago and I can't remember the CATO right now but it is fact.  Some folks are worried about the "child soldier" thing.   :



Can you cite the change?


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## Northalbertan (12 Oct 2010)

I stand corrected here is the quote from CATO 13-07.  You cannot be a member of the *CIC* and a cadet.

2. The provisions for eligibility for
membership in a cadet unit are outlined in
Chapter 4 of the Queen’s Regulations and Orders
(Cadets) (QR(Cadets)). The provisions for
enrolment in the Primary Reserve are outlined in
CFAO 49-10 and 49-11. Membership in a cadet
unit does not legally bar enrolment in the
Primary Reserve.

3. Membership in Cadets or the Primary
Reserve should be re-evaluated, however, if the
cadet/reservist is unable to deal with the
increased responsibility. The cadet unit CO shall
determine whether continued involvement as a
cadet is appropriate.

4. A person may not be a cadet and a member
of the CIC concurrently.

North Albertan


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## tomterri (1 Dec 2010)

I've spent a fair amount of time with RMC cadets working for me.  Most of them are doing the standard starving student routine because of all the deductions (food, etc.) coming off their very small pay.  Most of them are enviously aware of the fact six months in the PRes would have got them a pretty decent hike in their pay.  Unfortunately, nobody told them about it beforehand.
So, if you're not going to have a lot of money to go to Foxhole U with, it's something to consider.  Otherwise, do what makes you feel good about yourself.


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## GINge! (1 Dec 2010)

Hi, I did 3+ yrs in the Air Cadets and 2 yrs in the PRes (Infantry). After High School, I went to RMC. During the selection process, my interviewer seemed to look favourably on the fact I had some cadet leadership courses, and had qualified TQ2 (Mortars) in the Infantry. IMO, leaving cadets for the militia was a good experience 'for me'. I was very immature at 17, and my attitude was soon checked by the older soldiers in my militia regt. I'm not sure that would have happened if I stayed in cadets.  It absolutely helped during BOTC and during phase training...after being a Pte, even in the reserves, you get a much better understanding of how to be a better 2Lt, or at least, a good grip of what not to do. 

That being said, there were cadets from my cadet sqn that also enrolled at RMC. They went Air Force. A couple of them did very well at RMC, with one graduating as the CWC. 

As for the pay thing... grr......when I went to RMC, I was not paid a Class-C Cpl, I got paid as a OCdt. This was due to the CF not transferring me from the reserves to the RegF. Instead, I was released from the reserves, and re-enrolled in the regs the next day. I gather some officers have been able to get back pay for this 'error', but it's not retroactive far enough to help out this old man. 

One last point, if you can get a tour before going to RMC, do it. It would be something special to be able to wear a GCS on your cadet uniform. I imagine that little bit of ribbon and tin would shield you from at least 15% of the BS that goes on.


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## JMesh (19 Jan 2011)

JMesh said:
			
		

> Furthermore, IAW CATO 13-07, it is possible to be a member of both the CCO and the PRes.



An update for any future readers of this thread. DAOD 5002-1 was updated since these posts, and this is a new part of the regulations.



> Membership in Cadet Organizations
> 
> On the day of enrolment, an applicant may not be a cadet in a cadet organization authorized under section 46 of the National Defence Act.


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