# Heat dome moves toward Alberta after shattering temperature records in B.C., N.W.T.



## daftandbarmy (29 Jun 2021)

The last two days here have been like standing under a blow torch, magnified by the humidity of course. This morning it's down to a 'frigid' 35C, and I've just been able to go outside without having to plan a jog from shade to shade.

We hit the highest temperatures in history, and I recorded 43C at my place. And it looks like this pattern will persist for as long as a couple of weeks, so everyone's freaked out about possible wildfires, of course.

Hey, Prairies and Eastern Canada, catch!

Heat dome moves toward Alberta after shattering temperature records in B.C., N.W.T.​​Police in B.C. say they've responded to at least 63 sudden death calls since extreme weather began​
There are worries about public safety as Western Canada’s dangerous heatwave intensifies, with no relief in sight.

Extreme heat warnings remain in place over much of Western Canada as a historic heat wave that has shattered 103 all-time heat records across B.C., Alberta, Yukon and N.W.T. moves eastward. 

The "heat dome" responsible for the unprecedented weather is now settling over British Columbia's Interior and parts of Alberta.

Environment Canada warns that more records will be broken in B.C.'s Interior on Tuesday, after the village of Lytton registered the highest temperature ever recorded in Canada, 47.9 C, on Monday.

In the Alberta Rockies, a high of 39 C is expected Tuesday in Jasper breaking the previous all-time record of 35.1 C set this weekend. The mercury is predicted to top 40 degrees in parts of the province including Grande Prairie; Edmonton and Calgary will reach highs of 36 C.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/canada-bc-alberta-heat-wave-heat-dome-temperature-records-1.6084203?ref=mobilerss&cmp=newsletter_CBC%20British%20Columbia_1633_286329


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## OldSolduer (29 Jun 2021)

About 90 years ago there was a significant drought in the US and Canada that basically encompassed all the states north of Texas (including Texas) and the Prairie provinces. This, along with the stock market crash of 1929 ushered in the era of  The Great Depression. 

Many deaths occurred from a variety of causes including "dust pneumonia ". The dust in the air was so fine and prevalent it killed the very old and the very young. The PBS two part series "The Dust Bowl" covered it very well. If you can find it, watch it.

These two old boys - about mid 80s at the time - were interviewed and described their little sister Rosie (IIRC) who was about two and was stricken with it and died.

I still remember what he said "I don't think I ever got over that" IIRC.

And the dust in the air caused the tears to flow.....😢

My little history lesson for today. Cheers y'all.


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## CBH99 (30 Jun 2021)

Well nature has now proven to me that all of my thoughts of maybe moving to Texas or Arizona at some point were bad bad bad ideas.  Nope.

This is brutal 🥵


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## daftandbarmy (30 Jun 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Well nature has now proven to me that all of my thoughts of maybe moving to Texas or Arizona at some point were bad bad bad ideas.  Nope.
> 
> This is brutal 🥵



We now have 60km/hr winds ripping through the 'hood.... at least it's cooler now though.


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## daftandbarmy (30 Jun 2021)

oops.... but he's sorry so it's OK, right?

B.C. premier walks back comments about heatwave deaths​

VANCOUVER (NEWS 1130) – B.C. Premier John Horgan is walking back his use of the phrase “fatalities are a part of life” when answering questions about more than 100 deaths across the province in this heatwave.

On Tuesday, Horgan was asked if the province could have done more to get the message out that temperatures in the 40s, as we saw over the weekend, could be fatal.

“The coroner will be issuing a report later in the day about unexpected deaths over the past, I believe 48 hours. She will be, as she always does, investigating those fatalities and reporting out to the public, directly,” Horgan said.

“I’ll await the coroner’s determination. As Dr. (Bonnie) Henry said, fatalities are part of life. The causes of those fatalities are examined by officials that we’ve placed as a society, to make sure get the best information possible so that we can put in place programs to protect people going forward. This was an unprecedented heat wave, records broken day after day.”

After Horgan made his comments, Chief Coroner Lisa Lapointe issued a statement, saying there has been a “significant increase” in deaths reported where it is suspected extreme heat was a contributing factor.

“The Coroners Service would normally receive approximately 130 reports of death over a four-day period. From Friday, June 25 through 3 p.m. on Monday, June 28, at least 233 deaths were reported. This number will increase as data continues to be updated,” Lapointe said in her statement.






						CityNews
					






					www.citynews1130.com


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## Brad Sallows (30 Jun 2021)

> so that we can put in place programs



Get off the green bandwagon so that the cost of energy falls so that people can afford A/C.


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## mariomike (30 Jun 2021)

The Mayor of NYC needs everyone to power down immediately so the tourist area of Times Square has enough power to keep the hundreds of massive, energy sucking, digital displays, filled with advertisements, working properly.


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## OldSolduer (30 Jun 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Get off the green bandwagon so that the cost of energy falls so that people can afford A/C.


That might be a good start. Defunding Justin and His Band Of Sock Thieves is a better solution.


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Jun 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> oops.... but he's sorry so it's OK, right?
> 
> B.C. premier walks back comments about heatwave deaths​
> 
> ...


I was in the mall the other day and thinking they could easily convert the empty stores (lots and lots) into cooling shelters for seniors.


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## daftandbarmy (30 Jun 2021)

Lytton is on fire and being evacuated. The Sparks Lake fire (ironic name) is over 40 sq kms in size and growing fast.

Experts report that fire conditions are similar to those of the 2017 firestorm, in August of that year, already throughout BC. This could be the worst fire year ever... all across the West:

Village of Lytton, B.C., evacuated as mayor says 'the whole town is on fire'​​Several out-of-control wildfires burning in other parts of B.C. after scorching heat wave​Courtney Dickson, Bethany Lindsay  · CBC News  · Posted: Jun 30, 2021 9:02 AM PT | Last Updated: 26 minutes ago


The mayor of Lytton, B.C., said he has ordered the entire town to be evacuated after a fast-moving wildfire swept in on Wednesday evening.

Mayor Jan Polderman said he told everyone in town to leave as the situation rapidly deteriorated.

"It's dire. The whole town is on fire," Polderman told CBC News. "It took like a whole 15 minutes from the first sign of smoke to all of a sudden there being fire everywhere."

Fire information officers with the B.C. Wildfire Service said they were unable to provide an update on the situation in the Fraser Canyon village.

This week, Lytton recorded the highest temperature ever seen in Canada on three consecutive days, topping out at 49.6 C on Tuesday.




			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-wildfires-june-30-2021-1.6085919


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## Colin Parkinson (30 Jun 2021)

I foresee the army being called out before the summer is over


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## SeaKingTacco (30 Jun 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I foresee the army being called out before the summer is over


What army?


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## Colin Parkinson (1 Jul 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> What army?


Well i know where we could get some polite green soldiers from or perhaps some in Type 07 camouflage if you prefer?


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## daftandbarmy (1 Jul 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> What army?



All those fat people in CADAPT who have been 'sheltering in place' during COVID.

Better issue the AEDs along with the Pulaskis!


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I foresee the army being called out before the summer is over


Yeah, evacuations for forest fires has become fairly routine at the C130 units.


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Get off the green bandwagon so that the cost of energy falls so that people can afford A/C.


What do you think is causing this if not GHG? What is your alternative solution to the out of control heating of the earth?


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## daftandbarmy (1 Jul 2021)

kev994 said:


> What do you think is causing this if not GHG? What is your alternative solution to the out of control heating of the earth?



In the realm of things we can control shorter term, we need some good science applied to growing more fire resistant forests. This is a thing.

We also need to remove communities from exposure to some of the more dangerous portions of the forest cover, and relocate small villages like Lytton. This is the more critical need, and might see a return to migratory towns where people live in different locations during the winter and summer.

Regardless, we need good leadership to monitor the fire danger and be proactive to evacuate communities before they are overwhelmed by fires. This is where someone screwed up with respect to Lytton, IMHO, where people got out with the fire on their heels and many remain unaccounted for at this point in time. 

There are dozens of small communities in the BC interior in a similar situation. Coincidentally, none of the ridings outside of the lower mainland voted NDP or have a sitting MLA in the legislature. Just sayin'.....


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## brihard (1 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Lytton is on fire and being evacuated. The Sparks Lake fire (ironic name) is over 40 sq kms in size and growing fast.
> 
> Experts report that fire conditions are similar to those of the 2017 firestorm, in August of that year, already throughout BC. This could be the worst fire year ever... all across the West:
> 
> ...


From some people I know in the area, sounds like Lytton’s gone. Local emergency services were pushing evacuations and holding perimeter while their own homes burned.

Fire season has just started...


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## daftandbarmy (1 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> From some people I know in the area, sounds like Lytton’s gone. Local emergency services were pushing evacuations and holding perimeter while their own homes burned.
> 
> Fire season has just started...



And the fire behaviour is already insanely aggressive:

"Lytton Coun. Robert Leitch said the fire started just south of the community and moved through the town “within minutes.”









						Several buildings destroyed after wildfire forces evacuation of Lytton, B.C.  | Globalnews.ca
					

An evacuation order described a "fire event located within the village of Lytton," which was "threatening structures and the safety of residents."




					globalnews.ca


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## Brad Sallows (1 Jul 2021)

> What do you think is causing this if not GHG?



GHG and everything else that determines temperature.



> What is your alternative solution to the out of control heating of the earth?



It's not out of control.  The warming trend is two centuries old, and modest.

There is no emergency and most of the factors are beyond our control; adaptation must serve.  People care more about their environment when they live prosperous, comfortable lives; prosperous, comfortable lives are easier when energy is abundant and inexpensive.


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> GHG and everything else that determines temperature.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


NASA seems to disagree with the idea that this has happened slowly over 2 centuries. Looks to me like it’s happened rapidly since ~1970
NASA Global Temperature link


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## YZT580 (1 Jul 2021)

And what happened in the 30's with the locust plagues and dust bowl differed from today's weather how??? They really don't know what caused it then and they really don't know what is causing it know.  But attributing it to a 150 ppm CO2 increase is simplistic at best if not pure speculation based upon a GIGO(maybe) computer programme.


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## OldSolduer (1 Jul 2021)

YZT580 said:


> And what happened in the 30's with the locust plagues and dust bowl differed from today's weather how??? They really don't know what caused it then and they really don't know what is causing it know.  But attributing it to a 150 ppm CO2 increase is simplistic at best if not pure speculation based upon a GIGO(maybe) computer programme.


The dust bowl was caused by drought and poor farming practices. Farmers tilled the soil destroying the prairie grass that held that soil in place. The soil dried out under the heat and the wind blew the dust everywhere - as far as NYC.


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## Brad Sallows (1 Jul 2021)

> NASA seems to disagree with the idea that this has happened slowly over 2 centuries



Those data do not represent two centuries.  (And note that the zero point for any "anomaly" is arbitrary; there is no particular reason to favour any point, nor is there - or is there likely to be - an explanation of what an optimum zero point should be.)  The warming trend we currently are in started after the abnormally low temperatures experienced around the turn of the 19th century.


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

YZT580 said:


> They really don't know what caused it then and they really don't know what is causing it know.  But attributing it to a 150 ppm CO2 increase is simplistic at best if not pure speculation based upon a GIGO(maybe) computer programme.


That’s just not true. Scientists know what’s causing it, it’s humans. It’s just inconvenient. 
NASA Global Warming


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## MilEME09 (1 Jul 2021)

Unpopular opinion: global warming is not man made,it is human accelerated though to an extent. We have to factor in as well that the Ozone layer has been healing considerably in the past 20 years which has shifted global wind patterns. There are more natural factors at play then human ones in climate change.


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## Brad Sallows (1 Jul 2021)

I agree that humans cause CO2 to increase.  I agree that increased CO2 contributes to increased heat retention.  I disagree that it is the only piece in play.  Contemporary climate science theory is weak.  One day I expect it will be in the first chapter of textbooks occupying the same place as geocentricity, phlogiston, and luminiferous ether.


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Those data do not represent two centuries.  (And note that the zero point for any "anomaly" is arbitrary; there is no particular reason to favour any point, nor is there - or is there likely to be - an explanation of what an optimum zero point should be.)  The warming trend we currently are in started after the abnormally low temperatures experienced around the turn of the 19th century.


Apparently there isn’t sufficient data to predict a global temperature prior to 1880
NASA why does the chart start at 1880


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> I agree that humans cause CO2 to increase.  I agree that increased CO2 contributes to increased heat retention.  I disagree that it is the only piece in play.  Contemporary climate science theory is weak.  One day I expect it will be in the first chapter of textbooks occupying the same place as geocentricity, phlogiston, and luminiferous ether.


The human element the only part we can control. You would rather we give up because a volcano put something into the atmosphere?


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## Brad Sallows (1 Jul 2021)

Clearly you don't get one of the points.  There aren't enough data, let alone one set good enough on which to base policy decisions.  The NASA data you cling to aren't truth written on stone tablets.

Sure, we can mitigate what is under our control.  But everything has an opportunity cost.  I'm past debating what might do some good and just to stop circling around fly shit in pepper will stipulate in advance that almost anything might do some good; the important discussion is what it costs and what we miss being able to do by spending on any particular thing.  We can expend a great deal of resources to little effect and end up making things worse when people compensate for what they were denied.  In Canada, for example, we could make it difficult to heat homes with natural gas and see a sudden proliferation of fireplaces and wood-burning stoves.  As the plumes of smoke rise into the air, will we think we have improved matters?


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## Weinie (1 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Clearly you don't get one of the points.  There aren't enough data, let alone one set good enough on which to base policy decisions.  The NASA data you cling to aren't truth written on stone tablets.
> 
> Sure, we can mitigate what is under our control.  But everything has an opportunity cost.  I'm past debating what might do some good and just to stop circling around fly shit in pepper will stipulate in advance that almost anything might do some good; the important discussion is what it costs and what we miss being able to do by spending on any particular thing.  We can expend a great deal of resources to little effect and end up making things worse when people compensate for what they were denied.  In Canada, for example, we could make it difficult to heat homes with natural gas and see a sudden proliferation of fireplaces and wood-burning stoves.  As the plumes of smoke rise into the air, will we think we have improved matters?


I was posted to a Base down east in the early 2000's. We had a controlled burn program every summer that enabled trg. One of my jobs was to meet with and explain the program to a completely cynical group who lived in a local village. They constantly bitched about the effects of the smoke on their quality of life, and how it was contributing to the pollution.

I was taken aside by the Base Environmental Officer, who lived in the village, and given the data he had amassed. Most of the villagers had a wood-burning stove, and ran it constantly from Nov thru Mar. Based on his assessment, the village was generating about 1000 times more pollution annually than we at the Base did during our controlled burn. But it was useless to bring this up to them, they were strong in their convictions, and righteous in their cause.


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## daftandbarmy (1 Jul 2021)

Weinie said:


> I was posted to a Base down east in the early 2000's. We had a controlled burn program every summer that enabled trg. One of my jobs was to meet with and explain the program to a completely cynical group who lived in a local village. They constantly bitched about the effects of the smoke on their quality of life, and how it was contributing to the pollution.
> 
> *I was taken aside by the Base Environmental Officer, who lived in the village, and given the data he had amassed. Most of the villagers had a wood-burning stove, and ran it constantly from Nov thru Mar. Based on his assessment, the village was generating about 1000 times more pollution annually than we at the Base did during our controlled burn. But it was useless to bring this up to them, they were strong in their convictions, and righteous in their cause.*



You have just described much of the Okanagan. In the winter time I expected it to be sunny but, with the wood burning stoves and evaporation from the lakes it was always cloudy and overcast.

After the huge fires in 2003 that nearly consumed Kelowna, they finally were able to change alot of that.


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## kev994 (1 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Clearly you don't get one of the points.  There aren't enough data, let alone one set good enough on which to base policy decisions.  The NASA data you cling to aren't truth written on stone tablets.
> 
> Sure, we can mitigate what is under our control.  But everything has an opportunity cost.  I'm past debating what might do some good and just to stop circling around fly shit in pepper will stipulate in advance that almost anything might do some good; the important discussion is what it costs and what we miss being able to do by spending on any particular thing.  We can expend a great deal of resources to little effect and end up making things worse when people compensate for what they were denied.  In Canada, for example, we could make it difficult to heat homes with natural gas and see a sudden proliferation of fireplaces and wood-burning stoves.  As the plumes of smoke rise into the air, will we think we have improved matters?


Do you have any legitimate references to back this up? Maybe a more reliable source than NASA?
If I understand correctly, your hypothesis is that 95% of the world’s scientists- people with credentials who study this for a living- are incorrect and we just need to do nothing for 59 more years and see what happens? Do you have anything at all to back this up?


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## Weinie (1 Jul 2021)

kev994 said:


> Do you have any legitimate references to back this up? Maybe a more reliable source than NASA?
> If I understand correctly, your hypothesis is that 95% of the world’s scientists- people with credentials who study this for a living- are incorrect and we just need to do nothing for 59 more years and see what happens? Do you have anything at all to back this up?


You are missing his point. Blinded by the light.


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## YZT580 (2 Jul 2021)

kev994 said:


> Do you have any legitimate references to back this up? Maybe a more reliable source than NASA?
> If I understand correctly, your hypothesis is that 95% of the world’s scientists- people with credentials who study this for a living- are incorrect and we just need to do nothing for 59 more years and see what happens? Do you have anything at all to back this up?


you have definitely swallowed the koolaid.  If you can, name a single significant prediction made by any of the climate group that has actually come to pass.  And the 95% of all scientists is probably the biggest lie being told.


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## kev994 (2 Jul 2021)

YZT580 said:


> you have definitely swallowed the koolaid.  If you can, name a single significant prediction made by any of the climate group that has actually come to pass.  And the 95% of all scientists is probably the biggest lie being told.


Do you have a source for that? This isn’t Fox News, you can’t just spew stuff and expect me to believe it.


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## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2021)

> Do you have any legitimate references to back this up?



What points are you finding difficult to follow or accept?

"95% of scientists" - what is that supposed to mean?  To which "9x% of scientists agree..." claim are you referring?


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## SupersonicMax (2 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> What points are you finding difficult to follow or accept?
> 
> "95% of scientists" - what is that supposed to mean?  To which "9x% of scientists agree..." claim are you referring?


It’s not 95%.  It’s more 97-98%.  As determined by a credible, published source.









						Expert credibility in climate change
					

Although preliminary estimates from published literature and expert surveys suggest striking agreement among climate scientists on the tenets of anthropogenic climate change (ACC), the American public expresses substantial doubt about both the anthropogenic cause and the level of scientific...




					www.pnas.org
				




Climate change is real.  It’s time people accept it and stop burying their heads hoping they won’t have to change behaviours. My opinion is that people are reticent to accept climate change for selfish reasons (don’t want to give up their luxuries). The Earth will survive climate change regardless. The human race? Probably not.


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## YZT580 (2 Jul 2021)

kev994 said:


> Do you have a source for that? This isn’t Fox News, you can’t just spew stuff and expect me to believe it.


Here is a quick summation courtesy of WUWT.  It is not the most unbiased source I will admit but each item is verifiable by identifying the original prediction and looking up the current statistic.  And one more thing, the polar bears are alive and doing just fine.  Global Warming 33 Year Birthday a Celebration of Failures


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## kev994 (2 Jul 2021)

YZT580 said:


> Here is a quick summation courtesy of WUWT.  It is not the most unbiased source I will admit but each item is verifiable by identifying the original prediction and looking up the current statistic.  And one more thing, the polar bears are alive and doing just fine.  Global Warming 33 Year Birthday a Celebration of Failures


Their whole premise is that the whole thing is a farce because the global temperature has ‘only’ risen 0.5 degrees since 1988. The whole idea is ridiculous.


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## mariomike (2 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Climate change is real.  It’s time people accept it and stop burying their heads hoping they won’t have to change behaviours. My opinion is that people are reticent to accept climate change for selfish reasons (don’t want to give up their luxuries). The Earth will survive climate change regardless. The human race? Probably not.


No use arguing with experts. Others have tried, and given up. 148 pages worth.








						Global Warming/Climate Change Super Thread
					

So we've all heard about the beef industry and global warming. How about the dairy industry:  Can dairy adapt to climate change? By Emily Kasriel 8th December 2020  Amid polarised debate, Emily Kasriel asks how dairy farmers see the role of their industry in climate change – and finds a mixture...




					www.milnet.ca


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## kev994 (2 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> No use arguing with experts. Others have tried, and given up. 148 pages worth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But I have so many appropriate memes!


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## Jarnhamar (2 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> No use arguing with experts. Others have tried, and given up. 148 pages worth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who specifically are the experts you're talking about and who's arguing with them?


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## Blackadder1916 (2 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> . . .  The Earth will survive climate change regardless. *The human race? Probably not*.



And that's a bad thing?


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## mariomike (2 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Who specifically are the experts you're talking about and who's arguing with them?


Specifically, Jarnhamar, the experts I am talking about are the scientists.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Specifically, Jarnhamar, the experts I am talking about are the scientists.


Ahh. Like these experts.


			https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/there-is-no-climate-emergency-say-500-experts-in-letter-to-the-united-nations/
		

Fair enough.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Jul 2021)

Alot of fires breaking out across BC right now, mainly caused by lightening. Two dead in Lytton, which was destroyed by fire yesterday, so far. Dozens of people are still unaccounted for:

*Fire destroys most of Lytton; anguished son recalls seeing parents trapped*

Lytton resident Jeff Chapman could only yell and scream in despair as he watched the Lytton wildfire kill his mother and father a few metres away.

Wildfires have destroyed most of the village. Public Safety Minister Mike Farnworth said the fires, one spanning nearly 90 square kilometres, levelled most buildings in Lytton, situated where the Thompson and Fraser rivers meet at the north end of the Fraser Canyon. Farnworth said multiple residents are unaccounted for, but he didn’t give numbers.









						Fire destroys most of Lytton; anguished son recalls seeing parents trapped
					

Lytton resident Jeff Chapman could only yell and scream in despair as he watched the Lytton wildfire kill his mother and father a few metres away.   Wildfires have destroyed most of the village. . . .




					www.timescolonist.com


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## SupersonicMax (2 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Ahh. Like these experts.
> 
> 
> https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/there-is-no-climate-emergency-say-500-experts-in-letter-to-the-united-nations/
> ...


Ah yes, because an MBA grad or a Professor of law are experts in climate….  Look at the signee list. Many have no experience in science at all and most do not have experience in a field related to climate science.


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## TheHead (2 Jul 2021)

I'm sure someone whos credentials are airline pilot or "OWNER of FastCAM" are to be trusted more than an actual climate scientist.


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## kev994 (2 Jul 2021)

TheHead said:


> I'm sure someone whos credentials are airline pilot or "OWNER of FastCAM" are to be trusted more than an actual climate scientist.


He’s quoting reliable scientific material against people vomiting crap they read one Facebook one time.


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## Jarnhamar (2 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Ah yes, because an MBA grad or a Professor of law are experts in climate….  Look at the signee list. *Many have no experience in science at all *and most do not have experience in a field related to climate science.


List of Canadian signators.

Alain Bonnier, *Physicist*, INRS-Centre de Recherche and Energy Montréal, Canada
Ian Clark,* Professor of Earth and Environmental Sciences,* University of Ottawa
Paul A. Johnston, Associate Professor,* Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, *Mount Royal University, Calgary, Alberta
Kees van Kooten,* Professor of Economics and Canada Research Chair in Environmental Studies and Climate, *University of Victoria, Canada


You also have* "expert reviewer" *Madhav Khandekar and *Independent Climate Researcher* Paul MacRae, I'm not sure when you unlock expert level researching.

All I'm saying is there's a healthy dose of confirmation bias when it comes to citing experts and science. There also seems to be some ridicule leveled towards anyone daring to question _experts._


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## SupersonicMax (2 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> List of Canadian signators.
> 
> Alain Bonnier, *Physicist*, INRS-Centre de Recherche and Energy Montréal, Canada
> Ian Clark,* Professor of Earth and Environmental Sciences,* University of Ottawa
> ...


I didn’t say all have no experience in science.  I said many.

Science is about questioning experts.  That’s its basis.  However, there is an overwhelmingly large consensus within the field of climate science that supports the theory of climate change.  Just like there is an overwhelmingly large consensus within the physics community that supports the theory the Earth is spheroid.


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## daftandbarmy (2 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I didn’t say all have no experience in science.  I said many.
> 
> Science is about questioning experts.  That’s its basis.  However, there is an overwhelmingly large consensus within the field of climate science that supports the theory of climate change.  Just like there is an overwhelmingly large consensus within the physics community that supports the theory the Earth is spheroid.



Apparently, when it comes to acting on Climate Change research it's not about the 'hard science', but that's where all the money goes:


THIS SURPRISING FACT ABOUT RESEARCH FUNDING COULD EXPLAIN WHY IT’S SO HARD TO GET TRACTION AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE​“Natural scientists and policymakers tend to just assume that if the natural and technical sciences identify the problem and solutions, society will automatically solve the problem,” Øverland, head of the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs’ Centre for Energy Research, wrote in an email to Ensia. “I think the past three decades have proven that assumption does not hold.”

Published in the journal Energy Research & Social Science, the study reviews grants from hundreds of government agencies and other organizations around the world that fund academic research, such as the European Commission and the U.S. National Science Foundation. Grants assessed were from the Dimensions database.

Between 1990 and 2018, the natural and technical sciences received billions of dollars in climate change-related research funding. The social sciences and humanities? Just US$393 million for climate change mitigation, the researchers estimate.









						This surprising fact about research funding could explain why it’s so hard to get traction against climate change
					

Ensia is a solutions-focused nonprofit media outlet reporting on our changing planet. Published by the Institute on the Environment.




					ensia.com


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## YZT580 (2 Jul 2021)

No, the premise is that the experts predicted a 1.5 degree increase by 2015 which didn't happen.  .6 in 30 years is well within the margin of error and can probably be more attributed to heat islands around urban growth which while significant to the residents do not reflect the environment as a whole.  The Malvinas are supposed to be underwater now.  Hasn't happened in fact there is a slight increase in area as the land is still rising slightly.  There was supposed to be open water across the top of Canada in 2015.  Didn't happen in fact the expeditionary vessel got stuck in the ice and had to be rescued.  The only reason there was an increase in named storms was due to a change in the criteria for naming and there has been no increase in the number of intense storms (NASA)  The cost of storms has indeed risen but then again so has the cost to replace my house and yours.  And there is a greater population density as well.  The Great Barrier Reef has almost fully recovered so it isn't dying and Antarctica just recorded and is still recording one of its coldest winters ever.  

For the bad news: every windmill disturbs 11.2 acres of usually productive farm land and renders 52 acres uninhabitable.  For every windmill constructed a corresponding natural gas/coal generator needs to be built and maintained in a hot standby position to backup the wind when it is either too strong or not strong enough.  The source for the minerals required is 90% Chinese and mining and refining is done by forced labour.  The average number of birds killed by each wind farm varies between 140,000 and 500,000 annually. (Do Windmills Kill Birds? | How Many Birds Are Killed By Windmills And Wind Turbines?).  Because of UN pressure many African villages must still rely upon charcoal for heat, cooking and light.  They manufacture the charcoal in crude home-made kilns.  Many suffer from eye infections as a result.  Water is drawn from potentially contaminated streams because there is no power to operate a water purification plant and all because there is no help to construct electric generators because we the west have deemed them to be pollutants.  Green energy is only for the rich.  80% of current US electricity comes from non-renewable sources.  To replace that by wind or solar would require the construction of 6,700,000 windmills or the equivalent solar arrays.   They are currently adding 3000 per year.  You do the math.  The cost of a wind turbine is 1.3 million dollars per mw and you need to replace 3.2 trillion kw of energy just to match today's needs and that doesn't add any extra to charge all those car batteries.  Did I mention that the car batteries only last 5 years, are hazardous to replace, highly flammable and finally sourced in China in those slave camps.  
All of this to achieve what?  They don't even know if reducing CO2 content will do anything to reduce temperature since only computer programmes can show an increase in temperature that correlates with carbon increase.  There is no scientific proof only guesses.  The cost is definitely not worth the outcome any way you slice it.


----------



## Jarnhamar (2 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> I didn’t say all have no experience in science.  I said many.


Right. And some of them are physicists and professors of environmental science, so a little more read in.



SupersonicMax said:


> However, there is an overwhelmingly large consensus within the field of climate science that supports the theory of climate change.


Agree. I'm a big believer in climate change. Yes, it's been happening for billions of years but humanity is driving it towards sabotaging our own existence. We need to change how we live and work on being less abusive of the environment.

I'm equally concerned when I read about millions of tax dollars disappearing into Climate Change grants and projects with no accountability and or paper trail.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2021)

> Climate change is real.  It’s time people accept it and stop burying their heads hoping they won’t have to change behaviours. My opinion is that people are reticent to accept climate change for selfish reasons (don’t want to give up their luxuries). The Earth will survive climate change regardless. The human race? Probably not.



It's trivially obvious that climate change is real.  It's trivially obvious that throughout history people have changed behaviour and adapted to it.

What isn't obvious is that some sort of catastrophe is around the corner.

What is predictable is that if the strategy to give things up is followed, people will compensate by re-adopting whatever they did back when those things were unavailable.  We have almost a couple of centuries of empirical evidence that increasing prosperity promotes increasing desire and willingness to mitigate environmental damage.  (Crudely, people have time to worry about their air quality when they no long need an open fire inside the hut.  Etc.)  Those who would move backward are the ones in denial of that evidence.


----------



## suffolkowner (2 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Apparently, when it comes to acting on Climate Change research it's not about the 'hard science', but that's where all the money goes:
> 
> 
> THIS SURPRISING FACT ABOUT RESEARCH FUNDING COULD EXPLAIN WHY IT’S SO HARD TO GET TRACTION AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE​“Natural scientists and policymakers tend to just assume that if the natural and technical sciences identify the problem and solutions, society will automatically solve the problem,” Øverland, head of the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs’ Centre for Energy Research, wrote in an email to Ensia. “I think the past three decades have proven that assumption does not hold.”
> ...


I don't know if I'd agree with diverting funding scientific discovery to the social sciences would be helpful or useful


----------



## Colin Parkinson (2 Jul 2021)

So far i not seeing the Elite and powerful giving up much to save the world, but they are determined to make the rest of us to give it up. How about a quota on the number of times you can travel by air in your lifetime? YVR was going through some 375 large truckloads of fuel every few day prior to Covid. How about a carbon tax on every Chinese made good till they allow independent checking of their GHG releases?


----------



## kev994 (2 Jul 2021)

YZT580 said:


> No, the premise is that the experts predicted a 1.5 degree increase by 2015 which didn't happen.  .6 in 30 years is well within the margin of error and can probably be more attributed to heat islands around urban growth which while significant to the residents do not reflect the environment as a whole.  The Malvinas are supposed to be underwater now.  Hasn't happened in fact there is a slight increase in area as the land is still rising slightly.  There was supposed to be open water across the top of Canada in 2015.  Didn't happen in fact the expeditionary vessel got stuck in the ice and had to be rescued.  The only reason there was an increase in named storms was due to a change in the criteria for naming and there has been no increase in the number of intense storms (NASA)  The cost of storms has indeed risen but then again so has the cost to replace my house and yours.  And there is a greater population density as well.  The Great Barrier Reef has almost fully recovered so it isn't dying and Antarctica just recorded and is still recording one of its coldest winters ever.
> 
> For the bad news: every windmill disturbs 11.2 acres of usually productive farm land and renders 52 acres uninhabitable.  For every windmill constructed a corresponding natural gas/coal generator needs to be built and maintained in a hot standby position to backup the wind when it is either too strong or not strong enough.  The source for the minerals required is 90% Chinese and mining and refining is done by forced labour.  The average number of birds killed by each wind farm varies between 140,000 and 500,000 annually. (Do Windmills Kill Birds? | How Many Birds Are Killed By Windmills And Wind Turbines?).  Because of UN pressure many African villages must still rely upon charcoal for heat, cooking and light.  They manufacture the charcoal in crude home-made kilns.  Many suffer from eye infections as a result.  Water is drawn from potentially contaminated streams because there is no power to operate a water purification plant and all because there is no help to construct electric generators because we the west have deemed them to be pollutants.  Green energy is only for the rich.  80% of current US electricity comes from non-renewable sources.  To replace that by wind or solar would require the construction of 6,700,000 windmills or the equivalent solar arrays.   They are currently adding 3000 per year.  You do the math.  The cost of a wind turbine is 1.3 million dollars per mw and you need to replace 3.2 trillion kw of energy just to match today's needs and that doesn't add any extra to charge all those car batteries.  Did I mention that the car batteries only last 5 years, are hazardous to replace, highly flammable and finally sourced in China in those slave camps.
> All of this to achieve what?  They don't even know if reducing CO2 content will do anything to reduce temperature since only computer programmes can show an increase in temperature that correlates with carbon increase.  There is no scientific proof only guesses.  The cost is definitely not worth the outcome any way you slice it.


I missed one Windmills improve crops


----------



## kev994 (2 Jul 2021)

YZT580 said:


> No, the premise is that the experts predicted a 1.5 degree increase by 2015 which didn't happen.  .6 in 30 years is well within the margin of error and can probably be more attributed to heat islands around urban growth which while significant to the residents do not reflect the environment as a whole.  The Malvinas are supposed to be underwater now.  Hasn't happened in fact there is a slight increase in area as the land is still rising slightly.  There was supposed to be open water across the top of Canada in 2015.  Didn't happen in fact the expeditionary vessel got stuck in the ice and had to be rescued.  The only reason there was an increase in named storms was due to a change in the criteria for naming and there has been no increase in the number of intense storms (NASA)  The cost of storms has indeed risen but then again so has the cost to replace my house and yours.  And there is a greater population density as well.  The Great Barrier Reef has almost fully recovered so it isn't dying and Antarctica just recorded and is still recording one of its coldest winters ever.
> 
> For the bad news: every windmill disturbs 11.2 acres of usually productive farm land and renders 52 acres uninhabitable.  For every windmill constructed a corresponding natural gas/coal generator needs to be built and maintained in a hot standby position to backup the wind when it is either too strong or not strong enough.  The source for the minerals required is 90% Chinese and mining and refining is done by forced labour.  The average number of birds killed by each wind farm varies between 140,000 and 500,000 annually. (Do Windmills Kill Birds? | How Many Birds Are Killed By Windmills And Wind Turbines?).  Because of UN pressure many African villages must still rely upon charcoal for heat, cooking and light.  They manufacture the charcoal in crude home-made kilns.  Many suffer from eye infections as a result.  Water is drawn from potentially contaminated streams because there is no power to operate a water purification plant and all because there is no help to construct electric generators because we the west have deemed them to be pollutants.  Green energy is only for the rich.  80% of current US electricity comes from non-renewable sources.  To replace that by wind or solar would require the construction of 6,700,000 windmills or the equivalent solar arrays.   They are currently adding 3000 per year.  You do the math.  The cost of a wind turbine is 1.3 million dollars per mw and you need to replace 3.2 trillion kw of energy just to match today's needs and that doesn't add any extra to charge all those car batteries.  Did I mention that the car batteries only last 5 years, are hazardous to replace, highly flammable and finally sourced in China in those slave camps.
> All of this to achieve what?  They don't even know if reducing CO2 content will do anything to reduce temperature since only computer programmes can show an increase in temperature that correlates with carbon increase.  There is no scientific proof only guesses.  The cost is definitely not worth the outcome any way you slice it.


Batteries are Recyclable
Internal Combustion Engines are More Likely to Catch Fire than an EV
The stuff you are saying is just not true.


----------



## kev994 (2 Jul 2021)




----------



## SupersonicMax (2 Jul 2021)

So, because there are challenges to making the world greener, we should give up and keep doing what we’re doing?


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> Ah yes, because an MBA grad or a Professor of law are experts in climate….  Look at the signee list. Many have no experience in science at all and most do not have experience in a field related to climate science.


Oh, excellent! I no longer have to listen to David Suzuki, Elizabeth May and Greta Thunberg! Not climate scientists!


----------



## SupersonicMax (2 Jul 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> Oh, excellent! I no longer have to listen to David Suzuki, Elizabeth May and Greta Thunberg! Not climate scientists!


There is a vast difference between people lobbying for climate change using what sciences brings as arguments and actual climate scientists.  The fact that any of those names is on any list or petition for greener measure means nothing in the scientific debate regarding climate change. Their influence is in the cognitive domain by using their name and brand to push an agenda.  

I am definitely for greener measures but I do not base my opinion on what David Suzuki, Greta or Elizabeth think and say.  In fact, I don’t think I have ever watched any speech from any of those folks.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (2 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> There is a vast difference between people lobbying for climate change using what sciences brings as arguments and actual climate scientists.  The fact that any of those names is on any list or petition for greener measure means nothing in the scientific debate regarding climate change. Their influence is in the cognitive domain by using their name and brand to push an agenda.
> 
> I am definitely for greener measures but I do not base my opinion on what David Suzuki, Greta or Elizabeth think and say.  In fact, I don’t think I have ever watched any speech from any of those folks.


You are lucky!


----------



## OldSolduer (2 Jul 2021)

SupersonicMax said:


> There is a vast difference between people lobbying for climate change using what sciences brings as arguments and actual climate scientists.  The fact that any of those names is on any list or petition for greener measure means nothing in the scientific debate regarding climate change. Their influence is in the cognitive domain by using their name and brand to push an agenda.
> 
> I am definitely for greener measures but I do not base my opinion on what David Suzuki, Greta or Elizabeth think and say.  In fact, I don’t think I have ever watched any speech from any of those folks.


You forgot Greta Thunberg - mind you I think most everyone has so I can't fault you on that.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2021)

> So, because there are challenges to making the world greener, we should give up and keep doing what we’re doing?



We should keep doing what we're doing, which is clearly a tolerable pace for adaptive change which doesn't require us to drop everything else to achieve some aim which may be fruitless.  There are not simply two speeds of change here, "none" and "full".


----------



## SupersonicMax (2 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> We should keep doing what we're doing, which is clearly a tolerable pace for adaptive change which doesn't require us to drop everything else to achieve some aim which may be fruitless.  There are not simply two speeds of change here, "none" and "full".


I am sorry but not much is done systemically to “greenify” the economy at the moment.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2021)

> I am sorry but not much is done systemically to “greenify” the economy at the moment.



Sure it is.  Look at recent US CO2 emissions.


----------



## lenaitch (2 Jul 2021)

Getting back to the situation in BC, mainline rail to the west coast might be in for a bit of hurt.  I believe this is the CN Thompson River bridge at Lytton, where both CN and CP are within yards of each other.


----------



## Brad Sallows (2 Jul 2021)

Uhoh.


----------



## brihard (3 Jul 2021)

Friend of mine is a new CP conductor out of LMD. Trains have stopped. This is bad.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (3 Jul 2021)

Called it








						B.C. seeks military assistance to fight 130+ active wildfires
					

The province has requested additional firefighters and resources through the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre.




					www.squamishchief.com


----------



## mariomike (3 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> All those fat people in CADAPT who have been 'sheltering in place' during COVID.
> 
> Better issue the AEDs along with the Pulaskis!


Hopefully they stayed fit.


----------



## daftandbarmy (3 Jul 2021)

Wildfires of note as of today:



			Wildfires of Note


----------



## daftandbarmy (4 Jul 2021)

From a BC Back-country Hiking FB page:

"Just to let everyone know the consequences of having a campfire with a ban in place. Thursday evening at a Forestry campground in the Kamloops Fire District a group of campers decided they wanted to party and have a campfire as well. The BC Forest Service Fire Warden just happened to arrive to inspect the camp grounds and make sure all the no fire signs were in place. He noticed the partiers and contacted the RCMP. All the campers were charged $1115 fines, because no one would own up to starting the fire. They were all evicted and escorted out of the area."


----------



## mariomike (5 Jul 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Well nature has now proven to me that all of my thoughts of maybe moving to Texas or Arizona at some point were bad bad bad ideas.  Nope.


I have never seen a place more beautiful than the Arizona desert in Spring.

Edit to add. Yes, I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Flagstaff AZ is in the high ponderosa country. It's 7,000 feet above sea level and has pleasant summers. Would I live in that state? I most certainly would!


daftandbarmy said:


> Police in B.C. say they've responded to at least 63 sudden death calls since extreme weather began​


Anger grows over B.C. Emergency Health Services' handling of heat wave that left hundreds dead.

There were reports of people in distress waiting several hours before paramedics arrived. Sometimes, when the finally did arrive, the caller was dead.








						Anger grows over B.C. Emergency Health Services' handling of heat wave that left hundreds dead
					

BCEHS management's decision to open its 24/7 Emergency Coordination Centre on the day the heat wave ended is one of several criticisms




					vancouversun.com


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> Anger grows over B.C. Emergency Health Services' handling of heat wave that left hundreds dead.
> 
> There were reports of people in distress waiting several hours before paramedics arrived. Sometimes, when the finally did arrive, the caller was dead.
> 
> ...



This disaster was a giant cluster f*ck of the highest order, of course, and wholly manageable had the senior leadership paid attention the weather forecast the week before. 

'A complete collapse': B.C. paramedic, dispatcher detail weekend of heat-emergency chaos​





						CityNews
					






					www.citynews1130.com


----------



## mariomike (5 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> This disaster was a giant cluster f*ck of the highest order, of course, and wholly manageable had the senior leadership paid attention the weather forecast the week before.
> 
> 'A complete collapse': B.C. paramedic, dispatcher detail weekend of heat-emergency chaos​
> 
> ...





> "The ambulance services is running pretty much at capacity, I mean, on a regular day we’re stretched… So when you add an emergency on top of regular operations, the system isn’t capable of handling it…"



That sounds familiar.


----------



## Colin Parkinson (5 Jul 2021)

I got a heads up from my friend in the RCMP that things were falling apart before it hit the press, the people on the ground could see it happening.


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jul 2021)

Colin Parkinson said:


> I got a* heads up* from my friend in the RCMP that things were falling apart before it hit the press, the people on the ground could see it happening.



Speaking of 'heads', there's a petition for scalps...
​Fire BCEHS COO Darlene MacKinnon​

We need to fill those ambulances with paramedics. We need the police and firefighters freed up from long waits for (too few and too busy) ambulances. We need paramedics to receive equitable pay so they don't have to get another job to pay the bills. Pay them as though your life depends on it!

Please consider signing this petition

BC suffered a record breaking heat wave this past weekend, one that proved to be deadly, with over 500+ (and counting) deaths attributed to it by the Coroner's Service.  Not only was this heat wave deadly, it was PREDICTED A WEEK IN ADVANCE.  And the BCEHS Senior management team did NOTHING to prepare.

Paramedics on duty reported going from hopeless cardiac arrest to hopeless cardiac arrest, the patients having waited hours for help before dying.  Dispatch staff reported hundreds of calls waiting in queue to be dispatched, and callers waiting up to 17 mins to have their 911 calls be answered.

Despite ample warnings raised by staff about the potential for massively increased call volumes, BCEHS did not upstaff any ambulances or dispatch centers, did not permit its paramedics to wear more weather appropriate uniforms, and did not even acknowledge the crisis until it was in its 4th day!  The acknowledgement was in the form of a faceless email memo "permitting staff to wear tee shirts and carry water bottles".  This was followed up by an emotionless media interview by COO Darlene MacKinnon, who stated "I think we did a really good job". 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (That should say Paramedics did a "really good job" despite crap conditions, impossible odds and low numbers and thanks for the police and firemen who filled in for employees we don't have enough of because they needed paying jobs... Just my opinion-









						Sign the Petition
					

Fire BCEHS COO Darlene MacKinnon




					www.change.org


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## Jarnhamar (5 Jul 2021)

Were the majority of deaths from homeless people stuck outdoors?


----------



## mariomike (5 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Were the majority of deaths from homeless people stuck outdoors?


I wouldn't know. But, I think the elderly living alone are particularly vulnerable. The "shut ins."

Of course the homeless are as well. But, if they are in public view, I would assume someone seeing them in distress would call it in.



> The August 2003 heat wave in France resulted in many thousands of excess deaths particularly of elderly people. Individual and environmental risk factors for death among the community-dwelling elderly were identified. We conducted a case-control survey and defined cases as people aged 65 years and older who lived at home and died from August 8 through August 13 from causes other than accident, suicide, or surgical complications. Controls were matched with cases for age, sex, and residential area. Interviewers used questionnaires to collect data. Satellite pictures provided profiles of the heat island characteristics around the homes. Lack of mobility was a major risk factor along with some pre-existing medical conditions. Housing characteristics associated with death were lack of thermal insulation and sleeping on the top floor, right under the roof. The temperature around the building was a major risk factor. Behaviour such as dressing lightly and use of cooling techniques and devices were protective factors. These findings suggest people with pre-existing medical conditions were likely to be vulnerable during heat waves and need information on how to adjust daily routines to heat waves. In the long term, building insulation and urban planning must be adapted to provide protection from possible heat waves.











						August 2003 heat wave in France: risk factors for death of elderly people living at home - PubMed
					

The August 2003 heat wave in France resulted in many thousands of excess deaths particularly of elderly people. Individual and environmental risk factors for death among the community-dwelling elderly were identified. We conducted a case-control survey and defined cases as people aged 65 years...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Weinie (5 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> I wouldn't know. But, I think the elderly living alone are particularly vulnerable. The "shut ins."
> 
> Of course the homeless are as well. But, if they are in public view, I would assume someone seeing them in distress would call it in.
> 
> ...


I'm waiting for "Blame Stephen Harper."


----------



## daftandbarmy (5 Jul 2021)

Jarnhamar said:


> Were the majority of deaths from homeless people stuck outdoors?



Nope. Same demographic that suffered the most from COVID 19 e.g., Old People with other conditions:

Anger grows over B.C. Emergency Health Services' handling of heat wave that left hundreds dead​BCEHS management's decision to open its 24/7 Emergency Coordination Centre on the day the heat wave ended is one of several criticisms

*An online petition is seeking the ouster of the head of B.C. Emergency Health Services over the agency’s handling of the heat wave crisis in Metro Vancouver last week that left up to 500 people dead.

That is almost one third of the number of people in B.C. who have died from COVID-19 in the past 15 months and hit mostly the same demographic — seniors with existing health conditions in the Vancouver Coastal Health and Fraser Health regions.
*
 The petition on change.org had been signed by 4,400 people by Sunday evening. 

The petition claims that the agency responsible for ambulances in B.C. knew several days in advance that an unprecedented heat dome was going to establish itself over Metro Vancouver yet no adjustments were made to staffing or in dispatch.

It wasn’t until Tuesday, the day the heat wave ended, that B.C. Emergency Health Services opened its emergency co-ordination centre, according to internal memos sent to front line workers and seen by Postmedia News. And it wasn’t until two days later, Canada Day, that paramedics were offered overtime shifts.

 Paramedics were also told Tuesday that they would be able to wear navy T-shirts on shift and would be allowed to carry a water bottle. 
Paramedics belong to the Ambulance Paramedics of B.C. Union Local 873 and according to its collective agreement mandatory overtime is permitted during unusual emergencies.

The shocking depth of B.C.’s unprecedented heat wave was revealed last Wednesday when the province’s chief coroner reported that hundreds of people had died suddenly over the past five days — and those that had succumbed to the heat were mostly seniors found alone in oven-like homes.

Two days later, Lisa LaPointe updated the tally, stating there were 719 unexpected deaths reported to her agency between June 25 and Canada Day — almost 500 more than usual with almost all attributed to the heat.

 There were reports of people in distress waiting several hours before an ambulance arrived. Sometimes, when paramedics finally arrived, the caller was dead. 

Union president Troy Clifford told Global News that the union was embarrassed by BCEHS leadership and had a meeting scheduled with Health Minister Adrian Dix to discuss staffing shortages and to address archaic rules like that in which rural paramedics are paid $2 an hour when they are on shift and only get paid a full wage when they are on a call.

In a prepared statement, the Ministry of Health said it had invested “massively” in the ambulance service, increasing the BCEHS budget from $424 million in 2017 to $560 million in 2020.

It said June 28 was the busiest day in the history of the service, with 1,975 ambulance dispatches.

The BCEHS did not provide comment by deadline.










						Anger grows over B.C. Emergency Health Services' handling of heat wave that left hundreds dead
					

BCEHS management's decision to open its 24/7 Emergency Coordination Centre on the day the heat wave ended is one of several criticisms




					vancouversun.com


----------



## mariomike (5 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Paramedics were also told Tuesday that they would be able to wear navy T-shirts on shift and would be allowed to carry a water bottle.


That was kind of them. There was a time we couldn't even unclip our clip-on ties. 

Metro Police the same. Long-sleeve shirts, neck-tie, hats on in the car, Sam Brown belt.  

Although the vests they wear now don't look very comfortable either. 

At least the ambulances were air-conditioned. Not the police cars. 

That was once upon a time. But, seems like yesterday.


----------



## CBH99 (6 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> I have never seen a place more beautiful than the Arizona desert in Spring.
> 
> Edit to add. Yes, I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> Flagstaff AZ is in the high ponderosa country. It's 7,000 feet above sea level and has pleasant summers. Would I live in that state? I most certainly would!


Actually I did go there one winter on a family vacation once, years ago.  As a winter vacation getaway?  Absolutely!!  Temperatures weren’t too bad, and it really was beautiful!  (We were Scottsdale snobs for a week or two)

Winter getaway?  Absolutely.  There during the summer?  I realized I would melt or just catch fire.  

39’C here last week, and I couldn’t function.  No appetite.  No motivation to workout.  I would sit at my desk and start on paperwork, and my forearms and elbows would mark up the paper from sweat within seconds.  The dog and I would do some good long walks at nights, during the day he didn’t want any of it either.  🥵


Global warming debate aside - it was never this hot when I was growing up.  Screw this 🥵🥵🥵

(I’m probably wrong about the above - but I remember 25’C was a solid hot day when I was growing up.  I’m going to have to find a summer getaway location, rather than a winter one, soon!)


----------



## mariomike (7 Jul 2021)

CBH99 said:


> Actually I did go there one winter on a family vacation once, years ago.  As a winter vacation getaway?  Absolutely!!  Temperatures weren’t too bad, and it really was beautiful!  (We were Scottsdale snobs for a week or two)
> 
> Winter getaway?  Absolutely.  There during the summer?  I realized I would melt or just catch fire.


After air-conditioning replaced swamp coolers, the Phoenix - Scottsdale area became much more popular. But, even the water temperature in swimming pools can become so warm in summer that it is hardly refreshing.

I wanted to buy a retirement property in the high desert, outside of Tucson, in the Oracle, Globe, Miami ( AZ ), Superior area. But, my wife wouldn't go along with it.



> Global warming debate aside - it was never this hot when I was growing up. Screw this.




I don't remember being bothered ( much ) by the heat. I do now. Maybe it's part of the aging process?


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Jul 2021)

I've been to Kitsilano beach and am wondering if that smell was all 'sea creature' related 


Billion seashore animals may have died during B.C. heat wave, says marine biologist

When Chris Harley went for a walk at Vancouver’s Kitsilano Beach in late June amid B.C.’s record-breaking heat wave, the stench of rotting seashore animals hit him before he reached the water.

At the shore, the University of British Columbia marine biologist found thousands of mostly dead mussels, as well as sea stars, clams, snails and barnacles.

“It smelled off and the shore would crunch when you walk, which is not the usual sound you want to hear,” he said. Generally, mussels can support a person’s weight, he said, but empty shells can’t.

Harley estimates that more than a billion seashore animals living along the shore of the Salish Sea may have died during June’s extreme heat, which has also been linked to hundreds of human deaths.

Harley arrived at his estimate by determining roughly how many mussels — the dominant animal on the shore — could fit in a small area and scaling that up to the approximately 7,000 kilometres of Salish Sea shoreline, stretching roughly from Port Renfrew around the east coast of Vancouver Island to Campbell River.

Most seashore animals can survive the high 30s, with barnacles persisting even in mid-40s, Harley said. While temperatures on the coast rose above 40 during the heat wave, it was even hotter in mussel beds, where Harley measured temperatures over 50.









						Billion seashore animals may have died during B.C. heat wave, says marine biologist
					

When Chris Harley went for a walk at Vancouver’s Kitsilano Beach in late June amid B.C.’s record-breaking heat wave, the stench of rotting seashore animals hit him before he reached the water.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## lenaitch (7 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> After air-conditioning replaced swamp coolers, the Phoenix - Scottsdale area became much more popular. But, even the water temperature in swimming pools can become so warm in summer that it is hardly refreshing.
> 
> I wanted to buy a retirement property in the high desert, outside of Tucson, in the Oracle, Globe, Miami ( AZ ), Superior area. But, my wife wouldn't go along with it.
> 
> ...



I do think things have trended warmer but I do think age has a part to play.  I patrolled in the days before a/c and early body armour and survived, but it seems now days, the slightest activity in humidity sucks the soul out of me.

I was down in the Phoenix area several years ago in early November working and found it extreme hot.  Less so if you were out of the direct sun ("it's a dry heat"). Some of the locals said even they didn't like being there in the summer and headed to the northern part of the State.  We're not much for 'snowbirding' but if we would,  she would want to go to Florida, which I would have no part of,  and I would want to go to the US s/w, which she would have no part of, so we're kinda stuck.


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I do think things have trended warmer but I do think age has a part to play.  I patrolled in the days before a/c and early body armour and survived, but it seems now days, the slightest activity in humidity sucks the soul out of me.
> 
> I was down in the Phoenix area several years ago in early November working and found it extreme hot.  Less so if you were out of the direct sun ("it's a dry heat"). Some of the locals said even they didn't like being there in the summer and headed to the northern part of the State.  We're not much for 'snowbirding' but if we would,  she would want to go to Florida, which I would have no part of,  and I would want to go to the US s/w, which she would have no part of, so we're kinda stuck.



Kinda nice out here right now 









						Victoria, British Columbia 7 Day Weather Forecast - The Weather Network
					

Find the most current and reliable 7 day weather forecasts, storm alerts, reports and information for [city] with The Weather Network.



					www.theweathernetwork.com


----------



## dapaterson (7 Jul 2021)

So your compromise will be somewhere in Oklahoma?


----------



## lenaitch (7 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Kinda nice out here right now
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The west coast is a tad pricy.  I could actually move there but not in terms of a 'snowbird' situation.  I've always viewed vacation properties, like cottages, just another place to work and spend money on.

Actually, if it wasn't for our daughter being back here, I could easily see us in Nova Scotia full time years ago.


dapaterson said:


> So your compromise will be somewhere in Oklahoma?



Naw, the compromise is stay here and grumble about the snow. We were never much 'winter people' but I tolerate it better.  I always said they could never send me to a place small enough or far enough north to scare me; her not so much.  Although I do find as I get older, snowblowing loses its magic.


----------



## mariomike (7 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I was down in the Phoenix area several years ago in early November working and found it extreme hot.  Less so if you were out of the direct sun ("it's a dry heat"). Some of the locals said even they didn't like being there in the summer and headed to the northern part of the State.  We're not much for 'snowbirding' but if we would,  she would want to go to Florida, which I would have no part of,  and I would want to go to the US s/w, which she would have no part of, so we're kinda stuck.


They say it's ok for a man to cry at funerals - and The Grand Canyon.

They also say in Phoenix you almost need oven mitts to touch your metal seat belt buckles, or steering wheel. In fact I read their State Police cars have white steering wheels for that reason.


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Jul 2021)

He sounds really contrite, or not....

How NDP gov't handled heat wave and wildfires needs to be looked into​ 
Opinion: Despite this week’s admissions to being “a bit jolly and giddy,” Premier Horgan cautioned against blaming the government for dropping the ball on heat wave, wildfires.

The B.C. government was so caught up in celebrating the latest phase of the COVID-19 restart last week that it was caught off-guard by the record-setting heat wave and the early start of the wildfire season.

“It was a convergence of a whole host of issues at the same time, without any doubt,” Premier John Horgan told reporters Tuesday when asked about the “perfect storm” combination of pandemic, heat wave and wildfires.

“We were a bit jolly on (June 29) I have to say,” conceded Horgan, referring to the day he confirmed via a media conference that B.C. would move to Phase 3 of the restart plan. “We were a bit giddy at the prospect of saying goodbye to the state of emergency and stepping into the third step of our restart plan.”

Jolly and giddy? While the chief coroner was already compiling what would prove to be a record number of deaths from the heat wave? With the ambulance service already overwhelmed with emergency calls?

“We didn’t think of it as catastrophic hotter weather, we thought of it as hotter weather,” Horgan quibbled. “Warnings were there to be sure and we did our best under the circumstances. The health authorities had plans in place. They acted upon those.

“Emergency Health Services were not able to meet the volumes, which were at record highs by the way. People getting out and doing more, becoming injured, accessing emergency services. All of those challenges were a perfect storm.”

The premier included Health Minister Adrian Dix, Solicitor-General Mike Farnworth and even provincial health officer Dr. Bonnie Henry in the mood of excessive exuberance around the restart announcement. But that isn’t borne out by the transcript of the June 29 media conference. It was Horgan who took the victory lap, boasting of B.C.’s “extraordinary results relative to other jurisdictions in Canada (and) other jurisdictions of our size internationally.”

 He did mention in passing that “we are in the midst of the hottest week British Columbians have ever experienced.”

But when asked by a reporter on June 29 why B.C. wasn’t doing more to address the already mounting death toll from the heat, the premier replied: “Fatalities are a part of life … It was apparent to anyone who walked outdoors that we were in an unprecedented heat wave. Again, there’s a level of personal responsibility.”

He would later walk back those comments on social media.

Despite this week’s admissions to being “a bit jolly and giddy,” Horgan cautioned against blaming the government for dropping the ball.

“It’s not a failure of the government,” he insisted Tuesday. “It’s a failure in a time of great stress and anxiety. There’s no fault to be apportioned.”

What about the people who do blame government?

“It’s a crisis situation. People are going to be unhappy. I get that and it’s not personal,” replied Horgan. “I don’t want people to hold back. I know that some leaders have been harsh. We have reached out and continue to reach out to them and we’re going to do the best we can.”









						Vaughn Palmer: How NDP gov't handled heat wave and wildfires needs to be looked into
					

Despite admission to being “a bit jolly and giddy” about COVID, Horgan cautioned against blaming gov't for dropping ball on heat wave, fires




					vancouversun.com


----------



## Brad Sallows (7 Jul 2021)

I wonder what people expect.  None of our "systems" is designed to have capacity for 100-year events.  Paying the same number of people more money (as some have advocated, thereby not letting the crisis go to waste) does not actually increase capacity.  The short-term weather forecasts were correct, so everyone who matters, including people capable of thinking for themselves, should have expected high temperatures and planned accordingly.  

I suppose the provincial government could move the slider a tiny bit by making everything associated with climate control tax- and levy-free and encouraging people to do more to prepare themselves for both abnormal high and low temperatures.


----------



## daftandbarmy (7 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> I wonder what people expect.  None of our "systems" is designed to have capacity for 100-year events.  Paying the same number of people more money (as some have advocated, thereby not letting the crisis go to waste) does not actually increase capacity.  The short-term weather forecasts were correct, so everyone who matters, including people capable of thinking for themselves, should have expected high temperatures and planned accordingly.
> 
> I suppose the provincial government could move the slider a tiny bit by making everything associated with climate control tax- and levy-free and encouraging people to do more to prepare themselves for both abnormal high and low temperatures.



This was a huge public health failure at the highest levels, evidenced by ambulance waits of 11+ hours due to poor planning/scheduling etc 

B.C. heat wave leads to 11-hour ambulance wait time, spike in sudden deaths​'We’re experiencing probably the busiest 48 hours we’ve had on record,' says Vancouver Assistant Fire Chief

A heat wave paralyzing huge swaths of British Columbia has stretched emergency services in several municipalities to the brink — in one case, Vancouver firefighters have waited 11 hours for an ambulance crew to arrive and transport an elderly person suffering heat exhaustion to the hospital. 

Just before noon Tuesday, firefighters were still waiting.

“We’re experiencing probably the busiest 48 hours we’ve had on record,” says Assistant Chief Ken Gemmill at Vancouver Fire Rescue Services. VFRS later confirmed it’s seeing a three-fold increase in call volume over the last few days.

The night before, Gemmill says the department had every vehicle out of the department’s fire halls and on-call, with most of the demand driven by people suffering heat illnesses. 

While an 11-hour-and-counting wait is an extreme, on many other calls firefighters waited for an ambulance for over six hours, says Gemmill. 

The waits have been so long many residents have showed up at fire stations across Vancouver begging for first responders to attend to their loved ones. 

“I know that the public is getting frustrated. I know with this extreme heat there’s not enough personnel to go around,” says Gemmill. “We’re experiencing some desperate measures by our citizens for sure.” 

‘INCREDIBLE CRISIS’​BC Emergency Health Services (BCEHS) has seen a 25 to 50 per cent spike in ambulance dispatches across the province over the last several days, says Troy Clifford, president of the Ambulance Paramedics of British Columbia.









						B.C. heat wave leads to 11-hour ambulance wait time, spike in sudden deaths
					

'We’re experiencing probably the busiest 48 hours we’ve had on record,' says Vancouver Assistant Fire Chief




					www.vancouverisawesome.com


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Jul 2021)

Why is a long wait a "failure" if the "system" is already working close to maximum capacity?


----------



## OldSolduer (8 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Why is a long wait a "failure" if the "system" is already working close to maximum capacity?


Because people expect to have Fire, Rescue, Ambulance, Police services within in a minute - just like the movies and TV. The average citizen doesn't care about response time or capacity until it affects them.


----------



## YZT580 (8 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Why is a long wait a "failure" if the "system" is already working close to maximum capacity?


I haven't seen any reports evaluating the pre-planning process in this.  Did the government contact health care centres to warn them and tell them to prepare?  Did they open quick response depots with water and fans made available?  Did they issue a bulletin asking people to check on any seniors or shutins that they knew to ensure their safety or move them to a better location?  Did they tell the same group to ensure that air conditioners were operating? etc.  If they didn't they should be charged with negligence, if they did, then they did what they could


----------



## mariomike (8 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> B.C. heat wave leads to 11-hour ambulance wait time, spike in sudden deaths​


I'm not familiar with that jurisdiction.

But, it would be interesting to see their Unit Hour Utilization during the heat wave. They usually try to factor minimum car counts into predicted weather events.

 ( _UHU_ = the number of transports divided by the total number of unit hours in the measurement interval ).


----------



## lenaitch (8 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> Because people expect to have Fire, Rescue, Ambulance, Police services within in a minute - just like the movies and TV. The average citizen doesn't care about response time or capacity until it affects them.


This is somewhat true, particularly 'city folks' who find themselves out in the rurals and complain that the volunteer department takes half an hour to show up and hose down the foundation of their former cottage, but it generally true because people see a lot more TV than require emergency services.  Like the military, the general population has little idea how emergency services work or how much it costs.

I'm not sure many realistically expect emergency service to operate as normal during a wide-spread emergency event, but I think it is reasonable to expect that it have surge capacity and have a plan how to activate it.  Large emergency services have, or should have, planning bureaucracies, but plans mostly exist on paper and are usually never exercised because of staffing and funding (or sometimes willingness:  'we have a plan here in the binder - we're good').  Events can cascade; a paramedic crew sits at a hospital waiting for them to accept a patient, so a fire crew sits at a scene waiting for an ambulance.

I haven't been following the finer details out in BC.  Were warming centres opened (are malls open out there?)?  Elderly folks living alone, particularly those with mobility issues or without a/c were probably particularly vulnerable.  Family has a responsibility, if they are around.  Sending out tweets hoping to catch 80-year-olds might be missing the mark.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (8 Jul 2021)

YZT580 said:


> I haven't seen any reports evaluating the pre-planning process in this.  Did the government contact health care centres to warn them and tell them to prepare?  Did they open quick response depots with water and fans made available?  Did they issue a bulletin asking people to check on any seniors or shutins that they knew to ensure their safety or move them to a better location?  Did they tell the same group to ensure that air conditioners were operating? etc.  If they didn't they should be charged with negligence, if they did, then they did what they could


I can get any warning I require on the Weather Channel......maybe folks shouldn't need the Govt to hand feed  common sense to them??


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Jul 2021)

> Did the... Did they...



Weather forecasts are public knowledge and are promulgated on many means, frequently.  People have to take more responsibility for themselves and deal with life beyond the median.


----------



## sapperboysen (8 Jul 2021)

mariomike said:


> I'm not familiar with that jurisdiction.
> 
> But, it would be interesting to see their Unit Hour Utilization during the heat wave. They usually try to factor minimum car counts into predicted weather events.
> 
> ( _UHU_ = the number of transports divided by the total number of unit hours in the measurement interval ).


I can only speak anecdotally to what I saw while working. We didn't do anything besides Red and Purple calls (Manchester MPDS) for the duration of the heat wave. More minor calls just waited and often turned into Red's and Purples'. We did cardiac arrests with down times of over an hour. The only attempt by management to prepare was to send out a memo to reemphasize what the signs and symptoms  of heat injuries are. There was no attempt to up staff more ambulances to accommodate increased calls. We ended up with fire departments transporting patients in the backs of their trucks to the hospitals. We had the police ERT medics out doing street calls and transporting.
Management ignored mechanisms as their disposal to get more paramedics on the street.


----------



## OldTanker (8 Jul 2021)

Having been a municipal emergency manager, I can sympathize with my colleagues in BC. I suspect we will find out that the majority of the deaths occurred with what I would describe as "marginalized seniors" - the elderly living on their own, possibly with mobility and/or congnisance challenges, likely not internet-savvy and without local famlily. It's sad, but there are more people out there like this than we would like to acknowledge. It is challenging to get timely information to them, and even if they do get it, what do they do? Hobble down to some cooling centre somewhere? Is it the responsibility of local government to track these people and check up on them prior to and during a heat wave? Or is that a health authority responsibility? In BC (or lotus land) we have been lulled into a false sense of comfort with our temperate climate. I don't doubt for a minute that our first responders, emergency managers and health authorities were caught off guard by the magnitude of this event. I have lived in 40C+ heat in the Middle East and even without AC my wife and I were able to deal with the heat OK, but for many people here, this would have been a totally novel experience, and I include our first responders and health folks. Telling someone it's going to get really, really hot and understanding what that means are two different things. I'm not even sure what the way ahead would look like. Clearly the only way to avoid this again is to be able to take positive control of the vulnerable population, but I'm not sure how you would do that, and even if it is clear who is responsible. Not a cop-out, but just realistic challenges. We've lost over 500 people to the heat wave, if there had been 500 people killed in a building collapse there would be all sorts of inquiries and steps taken. I'm not sure that will happen in this case. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## mariomike (8 Jul 2021)

OldSolduer said:


> The average citizen doesn't care about response time or capacity until it affects them.


Not a resident of B.C.. Only been a visitor. But, I was curious about their response times.

The national response time goal for paramedics in Canada is 8 minutes 59 seconds, for the most serious emergencies.

When seconds count ... they were 11 hours away.









						B.C. heat wave leads to 11-hour ambulance wait time, spike in sudden deaths
					

'We’re experiencing probably the busiest 48 hours we’ve had on record,' says Vancouver Assistant Fire Chief




					www.vancouverisawesome.com
				




I imagine some people are "gonna have some "splainin' to do."

B.C. Ambulance Response Times





						Paramedics In 8:59 - BC Ambulance Response Times
					

How long did you wait for an ambulance? The nantional benchmark for paramedic response is 8:59. In British Columbia, that benchmark is met only 30% of the time. Tell us how long you waited for a BC ambulance.




					www.paramedicsin859.com


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## mariomike (8 Jul 2021)

OldTanker said:


> We've lost over 500 people to the heat wave, if there had been 500 people killed in a building collapse there would be all sorts of inquiries and steps taken. I'm not sure that will happen in this case. I hope I'm wrong.


From what I have read of heat waves, they come and go in slow motion, compared to the more visual disasters.

No property damage. Not much to photograph, like a building collapse. Nobody left homeless.

Many of the deceased seem to be shut-ins who die alone in their homes.


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## YZT580 (8 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Weather forecasts are public knowledge and are promulgated on many means, frequently.  People have to take more responsibility for themselves and deal with life beyond the median.


We have accustomed people to be dependent upon the nanny state.  Covid is an example.  Wear a mask, avoid crowds, close businesses.  We have mandated by law just about everything instead of providing advice and relying upon common sense.  Our courts have supported that approach through their handing out cash whenever people make claims against businesses and the state for a host of issues where simple common sense would have prevented their occurrence in the first place.  So you are saying that when it comes to weather people need to think for themselves but in other instances the government should intervene?


----------



## Brad Sallows (8 Jul 2021)

> So you are saying that when it comes to weather people need to think for themselves



Yes.



> but in other instances the government should intervene?



If you wish to discuss instances in which you think the government should intervene, be specific.


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## YZT580 (8 Jul 2021)

Brad Sallows said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> If you wish to discuss instances in which you think the government should intervene, be specific.


I don't believe govt. should intervene at all except for seniors.  People *should* be able to think for themselves and if they don't, they become candidates for a Darwin award but when their are other people who may suffer or die as a result of their stupidity or lack of thought some system of warning needs to be established.  
According to the news reports most of the fatalities were seniors, living alone, probably basic accommodation with no air conditioning.  those folks need people to think for them and look out for them but our system of caring for seniors permit those who should be concerned to pass the buck to government agencies and health care facilities instead of being responsible for their own family and many of the organizations that do that have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to do so.  Most victims of Covid in the early days at least were seniors in homes.  Seniors living alone should have an identified/designated power of attorney for personal care and when there isn't such a person the local health organization should step in.  Public schools have phone trees to ensure that on no bus days kids don't walk out to the end of the lane to wait for a non-existent bus.  Surely a similar system for seniors wouldn't be all that difficult or costly to establish


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## daftandbarmy (9 Jul 2021)

They told you so....

Documents offered guidelines, warned of deadly consequences ahead of B.C. heat wave​
Warning signs ignored during B.C. heat wave?

There are new questions about whether governments dropped the ball in protecting vulnerable people during B.C.'s recent heat wave.

VANCOUVER -- At least three separate reports warned health officials and local governments about the kind of heat waves that could cost lives in the Lower Mainland, but the analyses and documents appear to have been forgotten when they were needed most.

A CTV News Vancouver investigation has uncovered documents from the B.C. Centre for Disease Control with clear criteria for a “heat health emergency” established in the wake of the region’s last deadly heat wave in 2009. Health officials have not responded to queries about those warnings and others.

The most crucial document dates back to 2012. Authored by a BCCDC doctor and a researcher – both of whom also teach at UBC’s School of Population and Public Health – the document laid out a plan to prevent the kind of death toll they’d seen in the summer of 2009.









						Documents offered guidelines, warned of deadly consequences ahead of B.C. heat wave
					

At least three separate reports warned health officials and local governments about the kind of heat waves that could cost lives in the Lower Mainland, but the analyses and documents appear to have been forgotten when they were needed most.




					bc.ctvnews.ca


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## daftandbarmy (12 Jul 2021)

An example of what can be done to mitigate fire risk using existing tools:


*Community of Mackenzie Now has a Safe Emergency Evacuation Route*

Highway 39 is heavily forested on both sides of the highway and is the only access route in and out of the community of Mackenzie. The Forest Enhancement Society of BC (FESBC) provided a grant of $1 million toward supporting a project by the District of Mackenzie (DOM) to reduce flammable woody fuel along the corridor.

Community of Mackenzie Now has a Safe Emergency Evacuation Route – FESBC – Forest Enhancement Society of BC


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## daftandbarmy (19 Jul 2021)

Wow...

Deaths during B.C. heat wave climb past 800


*The number of deaths reported during a record-breaking heat wave in B.C. three weeks ago has climbed to 808 — 610 more than average, according to preliminary data from the B.C. Coroners Service.*









						Deaths during B.C. heat wave climb past 800
					

The number of deaths reported during a record-breaking heat wave in B.C. three weeks ago has climbed to 808 — 610 more than average, according to preliminary data from the B.C. Coroners Service.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Jul 2021)

State of emergency declared in BC, probably about 2 weeks late for some unknown reason and the press is hammering the Premier, and quite rightly so.

35 days since the last drop of rain, with nothing useful predicted for the foreseeable future for most of the southern part of the province and eastern Vancouver Island. 

This is going to be bigger than 2017/18 apparently. OP LENTUS for everyone!



State of emergency declared in British Columbia over growing wildfires​British Columbia’s public safety minister is declaring a provincial state of emergency over the growing wildfire threat to prepare for potential mass evacuations and help secure accommodation that might be needed by evacuees.

Mike Farnworth said he made the decision based on information from officials that weather conditions will lead to more severe fire behaviour and the potential for more evacuations, citing the weather in British Columbia’s Interior region in particular.

“In a briefing last night, I received word that we’ll be facing a few days of very difficult weather in the Interior,” Farnworth said in a statement.

The state of emergency goes into effect on Wednesday and gives government agencies, the fire commissioner and the RCMP the authority to take whatever action they deem is necessary to fight the wildfires and protect people and communities.

Farnworth said he wants to assure B.C. residents that the province is deploying all available personnel and equipment to fight the fires.

“We have reached a critical point,” he told a news conference.

Nearly 300 fires were burning across the province on Tuesday, including several of them that were encroaching on communities that have issued evacuation orders or alerts.

The government said 40 evacuation orders affected about 5,700 people or almost 2,900 properties in the province. There were also 69 evacuation alerts affecting just under 33,000 people and about 16,000 properties. The alerts tell people they should be ready to flee their homes on short notice.

Continued hot and dry conditions are forecasted, with heightened wind activity in the Interior and southeastern B.C., the provincial government said.









						State of emergency declared in British Columbia over growing wildfires
					

VANCOUVER — British Columbia’s public safety minister is declaring a provincial state of emergency over the growing wildfire threat to prepare for potential mass evacuations and help secure accommodation that might be needed by evacuees.




					www.timescolonist.com


----------



## lenaitch (20 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> I received word that we’ll be facing a few days of very difficult weather in the Interior,



Has the Minister been in a coma, or does he not think the weather of the last month or so has been 'difficult'.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> Has the Minister been in a coma, or does he not think the weather of the last month or so has been 'difficult'.



There are no elected MLAs in the current government who are based outside of the urban areas of BC e.g., the Lower Mainland. 

All the areas burning are not NDP ridings, therefore, why should the government care?


----------



## MilEME09 (20 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> This is going to be bigger than 2017/18 apparently. OP LENTUS for everyone!


Good thing 3 Div is at high readiness, and everyone was home for covid, oh wait they aren't, in an attempt to clear the back log many troops are on courses out east. 

Seriously I don't think a Op Lentis will be a small go this time, no three week rotations, I think this could turn into all hands on deck if the conditions stay the same or get worse.


----------



## daftandbarmy (20 Jul 2021)

MilEME09 said:


> Good thing 3 Div is at high readiness, and everyone was home for covid, oh wait they aren't, in an attempt to clear the back log many troops are on courses out east.
> 
> Seriously I don't think a Op Lentis will be a small go this time, no three week rotations, I think this could turn into all hands on deck if the conditions stay the same or get worse.



Here we go again....

Military deploys to B.C. interior on Op Lentus​
In response to the threats posed by the wildfire situation in the interior of B.C, the provincial government requested federal assistance from the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) July 9.

The CAF declared Operation Lentus active with its principal goal to assist with this provincial emergency.

The CAF was well situated to quickly respond as there were already Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) aircraft pre-positioned in Kelowna and CFB Comox in anticipation of this situation growing worse.

Two aircraft, a CC-130J Hercules and a CC-177 Globemaster, are presently operating out of CFB Comox. Additionally, three CH-146 Griffon helicopters and two CH-147F Chinook helicopters are supporting the wildfire operations out of Kamloops.

The operation has already provided much needed help to the province. Flights from CFB Comox have delivered essential firefighting equipment to Bella Coola, including a Comox fire truck and water distribution systems to battle the flames.

RCAF Griffon and Chinook helicopters stationed at Kamloops airport are providing air reconnaissance over Prince George and surrounding communities for provincial authorities, allowing them to better assess the needs of communities affected by the fires, and how best to fight the blazes. 

As of July 12, more than 14,000 people have been evacuated from their homes and over 33,000 hectares of land have been devastated by the wild fires in multiple regions in the Chilcotin Plateau and Cariboo regions of B.C.

The Canadian Armed Forces will continue to assist B.C. on Operation Lentus for the duration of the provincial need for assistance, and will remain in close communication with the province in order to ensure the response to the wildfires is as effective and efficient as possible.

For more information on the provincial wildfire situation, please visit www.bcwildfire.ca or follow MARPAC on Twitter @MARPAC_FMARP for daily updates on Operation LENTUS activity.










						Military deploys to B.C. interior on Op Lentus
					

Military, deploys, B.C., interior, Op, Lentus




					www.lookoutnewspaper.com


----------



## MilEME09 (20 Jul 2021)

As of this month the CAF has been involved in OP lentus for 8 straight months, this will take a toll.


----------



## RangerRay (21 Jul 2021)

Curious to hear from those who work with Hercs:

How easy/difficult is it to turn Hercs into air tankers to drop water or retardant?  I so because I often see footage of USAF Hercs being used in that role in the US. If all the contracted air tanker companies are maxed out, is it conceivable that RCAF Hercs can be utilized in this role?  Thanks.


----------



## MilEME09 (21 Jul 2021)

RangerRay said:


> Curious to hear from those who work with Hercs:
> 
> How easy/difficult is it to turn Hercs into air tankers to drop water or retardant?  I so because I often see footage of USAF Hercs being used in that role in the US. If all the contracted air tanker companies are maxed out, is it conceivable that RCAF Hercs can be utilized in this role?  Thanks.


Quick Google search shows its a conversion to put in the floor discharge system and a 4000 gallon tank. I am guessing it isn't cheap or quick either.


----------



## PuckChaser (22 Jul 2021)

Big balloon in the back, drop ramp, pitch up and loadie slices it open. Problem solved.


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## YZT580 (22 Jul 2021)

Dropping water in a fire zone requires significant training, practice and experience. Read the CADORS: every year experienced crews make headlines that I don't really want to read.  If the government wants to employ hercs in this manner it needs to start now so that by next fire season the crews are ready to go.


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## lenaitch (22 Jul 2021)

I suppose when you have about five times as many Hercs as we do it's easier to justify.  Although I don't know for certain, the US military's role might be linked to concept of 'federal lands', which is about 60% of California's forests, as opposed to Crown Land, which is the responsibility of the province (federal Crown land is limited to the Territories).

One problem with Hercs and other converted aircraft is they need a suitable airport and ground infrastructure to re-load.  Aircraft such as the CL-415, Fire Boss, Twin Otters, etc. is they can repeatedly and fairly quickly cycle to any suitable body of water - about 1.5 km long for the CL-415 (assuming there are lakes/rivers around).  Their capacities may be smaller but they can probably put a lot more water on target in the same period of time.


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## SeaKingTacco (22 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> I suppose when you have about five times as many Hercs as we do it's easier to justify.  Although I don't know for certain, the US military's role might be linked to concept of 'federal lands', which is about 60% of California's forests, as opposed to Crown Land, which is the responsibility of the province (federal Crown land is limited to the Territories).
> 
> One problem with Hercs and other converted aircraft is they need a suitable airport and ground infrastructure to re-load.  Aircraft such as the CL-415, Fire Boss, Twin Otters, etc. is they can repeatedly and fairly quickly cycle to any suitable body of water - about 1.5 km long for the CL-415 (assuming there are lakes/rivers around).  Their capacities may be smaller but they can probably put a lot more water on target in the same period of time.


…and that is the secret of aerial firefighting. Cycle time.

It is all about how much retardant/water an aircraft can drop in an hour and at what cost.


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## daftandbarmy (22 Jul 2021)

SeaKingTacco said:


> …and that is the secret of aerial firefighting. Cycle time.
> 
> It is all about how much retardant/water an aircraft can drop in an hour and at what cost.



That's one of the reasons why they never use the Martin MARS waterbomber anymore, although Coulson continues to try and play on public sentiments to get the government to pay for it 









						Why B.C. isn’t using the Martin Mars water bomber to fight the wildfires  | Globalnews.ca
					

It's one big and expensive plane, the province says.




					globalnews.ca


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## Good2Golf (22 Jul 2021)

A380s should be coming onto the market soon…just sayin’.


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## RangerRay (22 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> That's one of the reasons why they never use the Martin MARS waterbomber anymore, although Coulson continues to try and play on public sentiments to get the government to pay for it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It drives me nuts when I hear people cry for the Martin Mars, like they would extinguish a 100,000 ha fire in one swoop. 🤦‍♂️


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## RangerRay (22 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> One problem with Hercs and other converted aircraft is they need a suitable airport and ground infrastructure to re-load.  Aircraft such as the CL-415, Fire Boss, Twin Otters, etc. is they can repeatedly and fairly quickly cycle to any suitable body of water - about 1.5 km long for the CL-415 (assuming there are lakes/rivers around).  Their capacities may be smaller but they can probably put a lot more water on target in the same period of time.


In BC, companies like Air Spray and Conair use large land-based planes like Electras, Convair CV580s, and BAE 146s, as well as smaller Air Tractors for fire suppression. I think it’s probably the only province that has to import CL-415s.


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## brihard (22 Jul 2021)

RangerRay said:


> In BC, companies like Air Spray and Conair use large land-based planes like Electras, Convair CV580s, and BAE 146s, as well as smaller Air Tractors for fire suppression. I think it’s probably the only province that has to import CL-415s.


Forgive my ignorance, I know practically nothing about aerial firefighting. Why has BC gone with land-based aircraft? Am I out to lunch in thinking that in most cases there will probably be a sufficiently sized linear water feature much closer to the fire? Wouldn’t the cycle time advantage be considerable in favour of the flying boat approach, even if capacity is somewhat smaller?


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## RangerRay (22 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Forgive my ignorance, I know practically nothing about aerial firefighting. Why has BC gone with land-based aircraft? Am I out to lunch in thinking that in most cases there will probably be a sufficiently sized linear water feature much closer to the fire? Wouldn’t the cycle time advantage be considerable in favour of the flying boat approach, even if capacity is somewhat smaller?


I believe it may have something to do with most lakes in the Interior  being small and surrounded by steep terrain.  Fire Bosses work good on those places with faster cycle times, but don’t have the capacity or range of an Electra.  The larger lakes tend to be jam-packed with tourists on their boats. Also, there are plenty of airports and airstrips around the province that can service those planes.

That’s my WAG.


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## lenaitch (22 Jul 2021)

RangerRay said:


> I believe it may have something to do with most lakes in the Interior  being small and surrounded by steep terrain.  Fire Bosses work good on those places with faster cycle times, but don’t have the capacity or range of an Electra.  The larger lakes tend to be jam-packed with tourists on their boats. Also, there are plenty of airports and airstrips around the province that can service those planes.
> 
> That’s my WAG.



That would be my take as well.  In Northern Ontario, and I imagine Manitoba and Saskatchewan as well, it's pretty rare not to be within gliding distance of a decent-sized lake.  The winds created by the steep terrain plus the turbulence and thermals caused by large fires would be a challenge.

On your second point:









						'Like herding cattle': Crews struggle to keep boaters away from wildfire, B.C. water bomber forced to abort refill
					

The weather isn’t the only challenge for crews fighting a wildfire near Sicamous, B.C. There’s also boaters.




					bc.ctvnews.ca


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## RangerRay (22 Jul 2021)

lenaitch said:


> On your second point:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Herding cattle is easy!  Now herding cats…that’s difficult!


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## daftandbarmy (23 Jul 2021)

Good legislation: It’s a beautiful thing 😉


*How the government can still forcibly conscript you to fight forest fires *

More than 3,000 firefighters are already on the frontlines — and B.C. officials are scrambling to bring in more. But if the worst should happen, one of the lesser-known aspects of B.C. law is that it permits the government to forcibly conscript firefighters from the local populace.

The province’s Wildfire Act authorizes B.C.’s fire officials to “order a person who is 19 years of age or older to assist in fire control.” The person has to be “physically capable of doing so” and have skills that “can be used” to fight fires — but this technically applies to anyone who can wield a shovel or a pulaski.

The Act, passed after the record-breaking destruction of B.C.’s 2003 fire season, also allows the B.C. Wildfire Service to commandeer vehicles, equipment and even whole private businesses.

B.C. Wildfire can order any employer to redirect their staff “to carry out fire control, under an official’s direction,” with the payroll reimbursed by the province. This means that any highway crew, construction worker or logger operating within a wildfire zone can suddenly find themselves in the employ of the province working a fire line.

The conscription provisions are a throwback to a time when Canadian governments routinely fought wildfires by press-ganging local men into firefighting units. As late as the 1960s, B.C. fire crews were often recruited out of taverns or at roadblocks rounding up passing motorists.

“As a child growing up in the 60’s and 70’s, I can remember that when a forest fire started, people were stopped on the highways, given a shovel and put to work,” reads a 2020 letter to the news site Castanet by Okanagan resident Cindy Nixdorf.

The famed British neurologist Oliver Sacks took a roadtrip through B.C. in 1960, and in a letter to his parents described being forcibly enlisted as a wildland firefighter.

“A sort of martial law exists, and the forest commission can conscript anyone they feel is suitable,” wrote Sacks, who described a day of “dragging hoses to and fro” with “other bewildered conscripts.”

The memoirist Barry Cotton similarly recounts a 1949 wedding in Vancouver being derailed because the best man was “press-ganged into fighting a forest fire.” With the press-ganging occurring in a region without telephone contact, the best man’s fate wasn’t known for several days.


How the government can still forcibly conscript you to fight forest fires


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## RangerRay (23 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Good legislation: It’s a beautiful thing 😉
> 
> 
> *How the government can still forcibly conscript you to fight forest fires *
> ...


That law is still on the books, but I don’t think it’s been used for a very long time. It would be a huge liability throwing untrained and unfit civies into a potentially dangerous situation, never mind Charter implications. It’s bad enough when they do a call for Emergency Fire Fighters (EFFs) and all sorts of people show up wearing flip-flops and worn out runners.


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## foresterab (23 Jul 2021)

brihard said:


> Forgive my ignorance, I know practically nothing about aerial firefighting. Why has BC gone with land-based aircraft? Am I out to lunch in thinking that in most cases there will probably be a sufficiently sized linear water feature much closer to the fire? Wouldn’t the cycle time advantage be considerable in favour of the flying boat approach, even if capacity is somewhat smaller?





RangerRay said:


> I believe it may have something to do with most lakes in the Interior  being small and surrounded by steep terrain.  Fire Bosses work good on those places with faster cycle times, but don’t have the capacity or range of an Electra.  The larger lakes tend to be jam-packed with tourists on their boats. Also, there are plenty of airports and airstrips around the province that can service those planes.
> 
> That’s my WAG.


British Columbia, like Alberta uses a mix of air frames as they try to balance out the demands.   Large airframes like the Electra L-188 (Miltary version is a P-3 Orion) are able to handle thermals and wind gusts better than small planes but have limitations on how close you can align with topography as they're not the most nimble.    Smaller Single Engine Air Tankers (SEAT's) like the Air Tractor -802's (Think Dusty from Planes Fire and Rescue...thank you Disney) are effective at being able to nip into those tight spaces but are limited by capacity and more susceptible to erratic wind conditions.   Most air tanker fleets are referred to as groups and range from single tanker groups of larger machines to 5-6 smaller SEATS depending on province. 

Much of the fire fighting fleet in Canada is based around hard surface airstrips and airports due to ability to load the red fire retardant onto the plane that is much more effective than just water.  While it does not extinguish fires it does help slow the fire growth if used on the right conditions in order to allow ground crews space to safely move in.....very similar to tactical air support for infantry operations.    Water can be used also but the absence of the retardant means that you start trade off pure water volume and cycle time discussions vs. reload distances and these planes are usually dispatched with a retardant load on board for at least the initial drop.     All the "scooper" air craft in Canada used are also able to land on airports and often will mix loads during a mission depending on air space control timing and needs especially if multiple planes are stacked up. 

The other big change is what is needed for the drop profile.   While a SEAT aircraft generally has a single drop capacity some of the larger machines such as the Electra have the ability to manipulate the bay doors to allow for a single drop (a large slug good for punching through treed canopy) vs. half doors (a longer liner drop) vs. sequenced doors (good for a long drop especially in light fuels such as grass).     While the US uses some even larger machines (747's, DC-10's) the weight of these very large air tankers means that you are basically talking B-52 suitable bases for reloading which makes them less practical for most Canadian fires.   

The USAF uses 2? 3? National Guard squadrons who are specifically trained on fire fighting with the additional on an internal MAFF tank system which is a compressed air assisted jet of water coming out the side doors of the C-130.   The C-130 is also used, and has a long history of being used, as an air tanker when in private fleets but the only ones I know of are the 2 Coulson Aviation has under contract in Australia (C-130Q and a civilian model of the C-130).


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## foresterab (23 Jul 2021)

RangerRay said:


> That law is still on the books, but I don’t think it’s been used for a very long time. It would be a huge liability throwing untrained and unfit civies into a potentially dangerous situation, never mind Charter implications. It’s bad enough when they do a call for Emergency Fire Fighters (EFFs) and all sorts of people show up wearing flip-flops and worn out runners.


The law still exists in Alberta too but again the liability issues have prevented it from being used often.   The TransCanada highway is not being shut down any more to conscript on the spot able men unlike 100 years ago.  

Heavy equipment and its' operators...much more common than Joe walking down the street being handed a shovel.


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## daftandbarmy (23 Jul 2021)

foresterab said:


> British Columbia, like Alberta uses a mix of air frames as they try to balance out the demands.   Large airframes like the Electra L-188 (Miltary version is a P-3 Orion) are able to handle thermals and wind gusts better than small planes but have limitations on how close you can align with topography as they're not the most nimble.    Smaller Single Engine Air Tankers (SEAT's) like the Air Tractor -802's (Think Dusty from Planes Fire and Rescue...thank you Disney) are effective at being able to nip into those tight spaces but are limited by capacity and more susceptible to erratic wind conditions.   Most air tanker fleets are referred to as groups and range from single tanker groups of larger machines to 5-6 smaller SEATS depending on province.
> 
> Much of the fire fighting fleet in Canada is based around hard surface airstrips and airports due to ability to load the red fire retardant onto the plane that is much more effective than just water.  While it does not extinguish fires it does help slow the fire growth if used on the right conditions in order to allow ground crews space to safely move in.....very similar to tactical air support for infantry operations.    Water can be used also but the absence of the retardant means that you start trade off pure water volume and cycle time discussions vs. reload distances and these planes are usually dispatched with a retardant load on board for at least the initial drop.     All the "scooper" air craft in Canada used are also able to land on airports and often will mix loads during a mission depending on air space control timing and needs especially if multiple planes are stacked up.
> 
> ...



Good info, thanks!

Sadly the Air Guard had a fatal crash while fighting fires in 2012: Air Force report says microburst caused crash of MAFFS air tanker


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## foresterab (23 Jul 2021)

daftandbarmy said:


> Good info, thanks!
> 
> Sadly the Air Guard had a fatal crash while fighting fires in 2012: Air Force report says microburst caused crash of MAFFS air tanker


Family of water bomber pilot who crashed near Cold Lake take solace in support from community
Or here's a SEAT tanker that was flipped by a wind gust while fighting a fire in 2015 on CFB Cold Lake.   

It is not a flying job for the faint of heart and has zero margin for error.   There's already been a couple of aircraft related fatalities this year (Alberta with a Bell-212 helicopter  and Arizona with a Beechcraft King Air) not to mention a number of line related fatalities.


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## daftandbarmy (27 Jul 2021)

One more time.... deaths from the previous heatwave upped to 808 now:


Environment Canada issues heat wave alert for Metro Vancouver this week​

The federal meteorological agency’s bulletin at 5:26 pm today states a strengthening ridge of high pressure will bring rising temperatures across the South Coast later this week.

“The time frame with the hottest weather will be from Thursday to Saturday. The highest temperatures are expected to be in the Fraser Valley, Sea to Sky region, and inland Vancouver Island,” reads the bulletin.

Within Metro Vancouver, daytime high temperatures later this week will rise to 3°C to 5°C higher compared to today and Tuesday — reaching 26°C on Thursday, 27°C on Friday, and 25°C on Saturday for the weather station near water at Vancouver International Airport. For areas that are further inland, away from water (such as Burnaby, Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam, eastern Surrey, and Langley), temperatures will reach the low 30s.
Overnight lows will also rise into the mid to high teens.

Following the historic deadly heat wave earlier this summer, the public is urged to take precautions by staying cool and hydrated, and be extra vigilant for symptoms of heat illness, which include swelling, rash, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, tiredness, muscle cramps, heavy sweating, and cold, pale skin.

The risks for heat illness are greatest for young children, older adults, pregnant women, people with chronic illnesses, and people working or exercising outdoors.

A total of 808 deaths were reported in BC between June 25 and July 1, 2021, with the vast majority attributed to heat-related causes. For context, the number of deaths reported in the same period in the province last year was 232. During this period, temperatures consecutively broke all-time records, reaching as high as the low 40s.









						Environment Canada issues heat wave alert for Metro Vancouver this week | News
					

A special weather statement has been issued by Environment Canada for a heat wave in Metro Vancouver over the latter half of this week.




					dailyhive.com


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## daftandbarmy (13 May 2022)

oops....

Upbeat ad filmed in fire-ravaged Lytton, B.C., called 'a slap in the face' to residents​Calgary-based ATCO Group says the story of a school reopening is a work of fiction


Lytton residents say the commercial for ATCO is in poor taste. (ATCO/YouTube)

Residents of Lytton, B.C., say they feel exploited by a new commercial that features their community, which was almost completely destroyed by a wildfire last summer.

A commercial for ATCO Group, a Calgary-based structures and logistics company, shows two young kids walking through a burned-out town while hauling a seedling tree in a wagon to a cover version of Katrina and the Waves' 1985 hit _Walking on Sunshine_.

The young girls pass a sign that reads "School reopens today" and try in vain to dig a hole. An ATCO worker stops what he's doing and helps the young girls plant the seedling. 

The commercial ends with the tagline, "For over 75 years, we've been where the world needs us."

But the company admits the story of a school reopening is a work of fiction. In reality, up to 90 per cent of buildings and homes in the community were destroyed, and residents unable to return are frustrated by the slow pace of rebuilding — and, for some, the commercial is rubbing salt into those wounds.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/lytton-atco-commercial-1.6451709?cmp=newsletter_CBC%20British%20Columbia_1633_548237


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## RangerRay (14 May 2022)

Dumbasses…


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