# Reservists: Civilian or Military?



## Celticgirl (12 Jul 2009)

Although I know reservists are considered to be "part-time soldiers", I was wondering if they are regarded as *civilians* by the reg force population, even when working alongside reg force members in Class A and Class B jobs?

The reason I ask is that I had a discussion recently with a WO about my upcoming enrolment ceremony, stating that I had 'only a few days left as a civvy'. He told me that as a reservist, I would still be a civilian. At first, I thought he was kidding, but in hindsight, I think he was completely serious. 

I could somewhat understand that view being taken of army reservists (militia) who work civvy jobs all week and then parade one night a week and one weekend a month with the army. However, when someone's main job is in the military, in uniform, and moreover, they have had the same training as their reg force counterparts (as is the case for air reserve and naval reserve), how can they be viewed as civvies?

Just looking for some insight and opinions from those who have been wearing the uniform for a while, both regs and reserves. Thanks.


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## PMedMoe (12 Jul 2009)

I would not consider a reservist civilian, however, there are a few differences in the terms of service such as not having to get posted, having to volunteer for tours and being able to release much quicker than your regular force counterparts.  Perhaps that's the way the WO meant it.


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## George Wallace (12 Jul 2009)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> ........ However, when someone's main job is in the military, in uniform, and moreover, they have had the same training as their reg force counterparts (as is the case for air reserve and naval reserve), how can they be viewed as civvies?



I think you are a little confused.  Someone who joins the Regular Force will have as their main job that of being in the military and wearing the uniform.  You can not say the same thing about a Reservist.  Yes they are both members of the CF, but the Reservist's main job is not the military.  It is usually something else.

In a way, the Reservist is still a Civilian, who becomes a member of the CF only for those short periods that they 'don the uniform'.  They are people who walk in both worlds.


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## George Wallace (12 Jul 2009)

Just want to add that this is a very grey area at times.  As a Regular Force or Reserve Force member, you are responsible to follow the rules governing the Code of Service Discipline at all times.  That means that even when not on Duty, one must remember that they are a member of CF and not bring disgrace, etc. on the CF or Canada.  

Some examples of these gray areas:

A member of the CF is permitted to talk to the Press as a 'civilian', but not identify themselves as a member of the CF and bring controversy onto the CF or the Government.

A member of the Regular Force may moonlight as, say a Cab Driver and as such work as a 'civilian' and not a member of the CF.  In that capacity, they are not working as a member of the CF, but as a civilian, even though they are still in the CF.  

A member of the Reserve Force working for a civilian company is a civilian in that capacity, although they must remember that the Code of Service Discipline still applies to them in reference to their identifying themselves as CF members in any activity.

As you can see it can be quite confusing at times, and you should have more knowledge as to when and where your responsibilities and duties lie after your BMQ.


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Jul 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> I think you are a little confused.  Someone who joins the Regular Force will have as their main job that of being in the military and wearing the uniform.  You can not say the same thing about a Reservist.  Yes they are both members of the CF, but the Reservist's main job is not the military.  It is usually something else.
> 
> In a way, the Reservist is still a Civilian, who becomes a member of the CF only for those short periods that they 'don the uniform'.  They are people who walk in both worlds.



Unless you're talking about those that have been on Class B for twenty years :


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## George Wallace (12 Jul 2009)

Twenty years is a short time young Padewan.   ;D


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## Blackadder1916 (12 Jul 2009)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Although I know reservists are considered to be "part-time soldiers", I was wondering if they are regarded as *civilians* by the reg force population, even when working alongside reg force members in Class A and Class B jobs? . . .



Why does it matter what one (possibly stupid ill-thinking) individual (who may only incidentally be on full-time military service) thinks of another member who is not on full-time military service?  The only important thing is what you consider yourself to be and to conduct yourself appropiately.  Personally, when I was serving I probably never gave much thought to such a distinction between regular and reserve members (I was reg before res); my judgement was usually based on competency - both individual and collective.  I wouldn't, however, be so bold as to suggest that I have never allowed some prejudice to creep into my evaluations; sometimes the barrel is judged by a sample of the apples.  I have worked with many very 'military' reservists and even with some very 'civilian' regulars (and not just at NDHQ); I have even met some very 'military' civilians.  It's all in their mindset and what they are prepared to do in order to contribute.


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## Scott (12 Jul 2009)

While I am sure the vast majority of TEMS members who post to this site will be interested in the TEMS media policy I don't know where it bears relevant on a discussion about the CF.

And I will very gently ask why it seems that the vast majority of conversations you enter have some sort of medic/TEMS slant on them? I am sure there are many appropriate forums for this sort of talk and it just doesn't bear on the CF, it's like comparing apples to bowling balls.

Anyway, I don't mean this as DS action, I am just asking in the interest of saving clutter on the site.


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## Scott (12 Jul 2009)

If you want to tell me to go fuck myself you can just do it, I am smart enough to pick up on the reference you made.

I can see you didn't put any weight into what I said at all and just decided to be offended. Fine. You also didn't really read my question. Fine. If you want to sulk, that's fine too.


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## Celticgirl (12 Jul 2009)

Thanks for all the input thus far. I'm actually most interested in what members' personal views are on the subject moreso than what is in the literature. (I did actually complete the Death by Powerpoint part of BMOQ, and remember most of what was taught, despite being sleep deprived.)  ;D


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## chris_log (12 Jul 2009)

A serving member is a serving member, regardless of how often they wear their uniform. There are reservists out there with more tours then reg force members. There are reservists (through all the 'classes' of service) who have spent more time physically in uniform then some reg force members. 

I absolutally hate this 'us vs them' mentality that grips so many members, whether it be 'cbt arms vs support arms', 'army vs air', 'reg vs reserve' etc etc. We're all on the same team, regardless of how often you wear your uniform. 

A civilian is someone who has not served a day in uniform, once you put on that uniform for the first time you cease to be a civvy and become a soldier/sailor/airman. A reservist may hold down a civvy job day to day, but they are still soldiers, not civilians. 

The WO you talked to (if he indeed meant it in the 'us vs them' way and there wasn't a misunderstanding) deserves a swift kick in the junk.


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## aesop081 (12 Jul 2009)

Piper said:
			
		

> There are reservists out there with more tours then reg force members. There are reservists (through all the 'classes' of service) who have spent more time physically in uniform then some reg force members.



Thats all nice and good but irrelevant. A RegF member is on the clock 24/7 and is subject to conditions of service that no reservist ( unless on classC) has to live with.



> I absolutally hate this 'us vs them' mentality that grips so many members,



I agree with you on that. The "civillian.not civillian" is just a dumb argument.


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## Nfld Sapper (12 Jul 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thats all nice and good but irrelevant. A RegF member is on the clock 24/7 and is subject to conditions of service that no reservist ( unless on classC) has to live with.



Don't forget Class B, I'm on the clock 24/7. I have to sign a SOU if over 30 days stating that I can be deployed while carrying out my duties......


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## aesop081 (12 Jul 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Don't forget Class B, I'm on the clock 24/7. I have to sign a SOU if over 30 days stating that I can be deployed while carrying out my duties......



Ack.

In the end thats also irrelevant as the whole "civillian/not civillian" things is pointless. Everyone does their jobs under the conditions they signed up for.


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## ltmaverick25 (12 Jul 2009)

I would not be too concerned about one WO's opinion and thats all it is.  My own opinion is that there is no such thing as a civilian in the reserves.  A reservist is not a civvy, he/she is a serving member period.  Unfortunately not all reservists look at it that way and as a result it can lead to difficulties with dicipline on the reserve side.  For example, the NES dodger that shows up once per month just so they can continue to maintain their membership in the military, but not actually do their part.  It has become comon accepted culture on the reserve side that attendence cannot be enforced beyond the NES policy.  As stated by someone else, its all about your mindset. 

On a side note, are you still AEC on the reserve side?


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## Celticgirl (12 Jul 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> On a side note, are you still AEC on the reserve side?



No, I'm going in as an RMS clerk this time. There are no officer positions available in the air reserve in my area at the moment, and I decided not to wait. Believe it or not, RMS clerk was a trade I had considered in the very beginning of my process. I still would *love* to do AEC someday, but I'm not sure if it will happen or not at this point. I may go reg force later on, may stay res, may go AEC or Log or another officer trade, may stick with RMS...I'm just playing it by ear for now.


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## chris_log (12 Jul 2009)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> Thats all nice and good but irrelevant. A RegF member is on the clock 24/7 and is subject to conditions of service that no reservist ( unless on classC) has to live with.



It was, admittedly, a poor example.



> I agree with you on that. The "civillian.not civillian" is just a dumb argument.



Bingo. There are too many people kicking around who self-aggrandize by bashing other jobs/elements etc.


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## the 48th regulator (13 Jul 2009)

Next time you bump into said WO, tell him all Canadian soldiers bleed the same way, when they do their service.

Some come back home broken and live, while others are given an eternal bed, when brought home.  It does not matter what type of service they do.

If he needs names, tell him John Tescione told you this.  Maybe the good Warrant Officer will rethink his marble mouth answer to you.

dileas

tess


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## 1feral1 (13 Jul 2009)

I refer to reservists as part time soldiers, citizen soldiers, but not civilians.

My two bob.

OWDU


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## The Bread Guy (13 Jul 2009)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> The reason I ask is that I had a discussion recently with a WO about my upcoming enrolment ceremony, stating that I had 'only a few days left as a civvy'. He told me that as a reservist, I would still be a civilian. At first, I thought he was kidding, but in hindsight, I think he was completely serious.



Bang on to Tess and all the others reminding folks like this that if you serve, you serve, full stop - unlike a Reg Force Sgt who once told me, "but you're ONLY a Reserve WO"....  :


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Jul 2009)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Don't forget Class B, I'm on the clock 24/7. I have to sign a SOU if over 30 days stating that I can be deployed while carrying out my duties......



Deployed on TD within Canada...there are limits to the TOS for Class B that Reg Force doesn't have.


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## Eye In The Sky (14 Jul 2009)

I recall this being a bit of a discussion on SLC back in '02.  Points that stick out from that discussion, or what I recall from it are...

- Reservists swear an CF Oath of Allegiance, same as Reg Force mbrs.

- Depending on the Class of Reserve Service, PRes mbr's are subject to the CSD as per QR & O, Vol II, Chap 102, Disciplinary Jurisdiction, Article 102.01(c) [as always, please read to the end *Notes*].  It was suggested that while Reservists are not true 'civilians', they are acting as members of the CF anytime they are subject to the CSD.  

DIN link:  http://admfincs.mil.ca/qr_o/vol2/ch102_e.asp#102.01

InterNet link:   http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/qro-orf/vol-02/doc/chapter-chapitre-102.pdf


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## Celticgirl (14 Jul 2009)

Well, I was sworn in today so I'm now a member of the air reserve (PRes) and starting as Class A immediately.  Happily, I will be working in an environment with both reg and res members and since everyone wears the same uniform, it is impossible to tell which is which. Of course, the newbie doesn't have a uniform yet, so she'll stick out like a sore thumb for a while. lol


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## Haggis (14 Jul 2009)

milnews.ca said:
			
		

> Bang on to Tess and all the others reminding folks like this that if you serve, you serve, full stop - unlike a Reg Force Sgt who once told me, "but you're ONLY a Reserve WO"....  :



I was similarly challenged by a Reg F Cpl who said "you can't charge me, you're a Reservist".  To which my reply was "Show me in the QR&O where that makes a difference?"

Retired PPCLI CWO Larry Surridge, who has had many, many Rerservists work for and with him both in Canada and abroad, is famous for very astutely saying "There ain't no hatbadge on a helmet."


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## ltmaverick25 (14 Jul 2009)

Celticgirl said:
			
		

> Well, I was sworn in today so I'm now a member of the air reserve (PRes) and starting as Class A immediately.  Happily, I will be working in an environment with both reg and res members and since everyone wears the same uniform, it is impossible to tell which is which. Of course, the newbie doesn't have a uniform yet, so she'll stick out like a sore thumb for a while. lol



Congrats, good to have you back!

Dont worry about being able to tell the difference.  It really doesnt matter.  Certainly none of them will care either.  They will ALL just be happy that they have someone to help them get much needed admin done.


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## pict (18 Jul 2009)

Reservists are not civillians.  

  As a member of the CF you are a representative at all times and there are a number of countless other reasons.


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## 1feral1 (18 Jul 2009)

pict said:
			
		

> Reservists are not civillians.
> 
> As a member of the CF you are a representative at all times and there are a number of countless other reasons.



Correct, Militia pers are not civilians, but as for your 'at all times' sumation, only if he/she is on CL B or CL C Svc does the 24/7 bit apply. Other times when you are attending an authorised parade day/night/wknd/trg activity whilst in and out of uniform within the sign-in period. Also enroute and returning to/from an authorised parade for insurance purposes. Example: if you were in a car accident on the way home or on the way to your parade you may be entitled to workers comp, but not if you were going to the Mess on a day/evening where there was no authorised parade.This topic is covered somewhere in this thread in more detail than this. E.I.T.S. has it covered pretty much with the CSD bit.

Your eagerness is appreciated, as personal discipline and pride is both in and out of uniform. We soldiers (PT or FT) are different then our civvy counterparts in many ways, and this is evident also in many ways, with even in such things as motivation and posture. I had some one say to me once 'I knew you were Army by the way you walked and carried yourself'. I was simply wearing Ray-Bans, a t-shirt and board shorts going to the beach, and I had not shaved in three days.

Regards from yet again another tropical winter's day here in paradise.


OWDU


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## the 48th regulator (18 Jul 2009)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Correct, Militia pers are not civilians, but as for your 'at all times' sumation, only if he/she is on CL B or CL C Svc does the 24/7 bit apply. Other times when you are attending an authorised parade day/night/wknd/trg activity whilst in and out of uniform within the sign-in period. Also enroute and returning to/from an authorised parade for insurance purposes. Example: if you were in a car accident on the way home or on the way to your parade you may be entitled to workers comp, but not if you were going to the Mess on a day/evening where there was no authorised parade.This topic is covered somewhere in this thread in more detail than this. E.I.T.S. has it covered pretty much with the CSD bit.
> 
> Your eagerness is appreciated, as personal discipline and pride is both in and out of uniform. We soldiers (PT or FT) are different then our civvy counterparts in many ways, and this is evident also in many ways, with even in such things as motivation and posture. I had some one say to me once 'I knew you were Army by the way you walked and carried yourself'. I was simply wearing Ray-Bans, a t-shirt and board shorts going to the beach, and I had not shaved in three days.
> 
> ...




Uhm Wes,

WTF are you rambling about???

I think Pict has nailed it.  Once we offer an Oath the service to the crown, we are more than just civvies.

What the hell does traveling to and forth to the CF, mess function, and sloppy weather in Australia got to do with it??

dileas

tess


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## 1feral1 (18 Jul 2009)

the 48th regulator said:
			
		

> Uhm Wes,
> 
> WTF are you rambling about???
> 
> I think Pict has nailed it.  Once we offer an Oath the service to the crown, we are more than just civvies.



Tess, you are preaching to the converted here.

I am in agreeance with him, thats noted in my first sentance. I've done my time in the Militia and Regular Army, and I am a proud Veteran, but if I as a reservist (like I am now) am in the mall on a Saturday, or have a job as a mailman, I am not part of the CSD and am not representing the CF or any military force for that matter.

I thought my 2nd para summed things up.

Cheers,

Wes


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## the 48th regulator (18 Jul 2009)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> Tess, you are preaching to the converted here.
> 
> I am in agreeance with him, thats noted in my first sentance. I've done my time in the Militia and Regular Army, and I am a proud Veteran, but if I as a reservist (like I am now) am in the mall on a Saturday, or have a job as a mailman, I am not part of the CSD and am not representing the CF or any military force for that matter.
> 
> ...




Wesley,

We are always soldiers.   But you are right, I am preaching to the choir, and doing it with a wee bit of Johny Walker down range.


It's my birthday and this is me reading things too in depth....I am usualluy a Bushmills man, but JW tonight as a gift.


Modrators, please keep an eye on me this eve....


dileas

tess


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## 1feral1 (18 Jul 2009)

Tess, well FFS!

Happy Birthday!

You must try and track down some Aussie Bundenburg OP Rum (made from sugar cane), that stuff would have powered a V2 rocket to Ottawa 65 yrs ago.

Be kind to your liver  :nod: .


Cheers,

Wes


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## Fishbone Jones (18 Jul 2009)

Wes,

Don't take three paragraphs to say what one line will. Just saying.


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