# CIC Officers Wearing Cap Badge from Former Regiment?



## LittleBlackDevil (5 Dec 2019)

Hello all -- first time poster here, although I've lurked for a bit and benefitted from some of the very helpful posts here. I'm currently in the process of applying to be a CIC officer. All my paperwork is in, just waiting for the 6-12 months I've been told it will take for me to actually be enrolled. Next week I'll be starting as a CV and acting Supply Officer at the local cadet unit.

I was chatting with another gentleman who is applying at the same time I am. He's former Reg Force and said that we would be allowed to wear our cap badges from our previous regiments as CIC officers. I was in the army reserves many years ago as an Infantry Officer -- as my username suggests I was a member of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles.

So I was just wondering if this is correct, and does it just extend to the cap badge or would I be able to wear all the other regimental accoutrements like black buttons on my DEU, should I eventually search out a cross belt, etc? 

Also if anyone has a link to the applicable regs that would be great. I have been working my way through the Dress Instructions Manual A-DH-265-000/AG-001 but haven't found anything applicable to this particular question yet.


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## Michael OLeary (5 Dec 2019)

There may be a more up to date version:

A-AD-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Forces Dress Instructions
2001-06-15

CHAPTER 3 - INSIGNIA AND ACCOUTREMENTS
SECTION 4 - ENVIRONMENTAL, BRANCH AND REGIMENTAL INSIGNIA

*Cadet Instructors Cadre (CIC) Officers.*
CIC officers shall wear only approved CIC badges.


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## catalyst (5 Dec 2019)

.....um no. 

If you are a CIC officer, you wear CIC cap badge and accoutremements 

However, if you are COATS GSO (General Service Officer), then yes, you would keep your rank accouterments and cap badge. However, it sounds like you are not a COATS GSO, you are enrolling as a CIC officer.


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## daftandbarmy (5 Dec 2019)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> Hello all -- first time poster here, although I've lurked for a bit and benefitted from some of the very helpful posts here. I'm currently in the process of applying to be a CIC officer. All my paperwork is in, just waiting for the 6-12 months I've been told it will take for me to actually be enrolled. Next week I'll be starting as a CV and acting Supply Officer at the local cadet unit.
> 
> I was chatting with another gentleman who is applying at the same time I am. He's former Reg Force and said that we would be allowed to wear our cap badges from our previous regiments as CIC officers. I was in the army reserves many years ago as an Infantry Officer -- as my username suggests I was a member of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles.
> 
> ...



Maybe not the cap badge.... but the buttons


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## LittleBlackDevil (5 Dec 2019)

Thanks for the helpful responses.

I'm looking at a 2017 version, but you've directed me to the correct location. This must have been something that was allowed in the past, because I was told the same thing when I was contemplating remustering as a JAG officer in the mid-2000s.

Just looking further this would seem to further confirm the section quoted:

ISSUE POLICY FOR BRANCH INSIGNIA

7. Component and Occupational Transfers. Members who have previously been qualified in their former occupation shall wear the cap badge of their new branch effective on the date of their component or occupational transfer.


So that would seem to seal the deal unless I'm missing something. I'll have to ask my colleague where he got his info from and see if there's anything else to this.

It's mildly disappointing, but in the end no big deal. I was expecting to wear CIC stuff until yesterday's conversation with my future colleague (retired Reg Force NCO) anyway.


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## catalyst (5 Dec 2019)

You can CT into a GSO position (general service officer) where you keep your ranks/etc  - so it is possible. Just not applicable to an enrollment in the CIC branch.


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## LittleBlackDevil (5 Dec 2019)

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> You can CT into a GSO position (general service officer) where you keep your ranks/etc  - so it is possible. Just not applicable to an enrollment in the CIC branch.



I'm having a hard time finding information on what a GSO is/does vs. a CIC officer. What is the difference in role?


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## Eye In The Sky (5 Dec 2019)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I'm looking at a 2017 version, but you've directed me to the correct location.



Then you're probably looking at the latest version;  

A-DH-265-000/AG-001 
(Supersedes A-AD-265-000/AG-001 dated 2016-09-09)
Issued on Authority of the Chief of the Defence Staff
OPI: DHH
2017-02-01

https://www.canada.ca/en/services/defence/caf/military-identity-system/dress-manual.html


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## Old EO Tech (5 Dec 2019)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I'm having a hard time finding information on what a GSO is/does vs. a CIC officer. What is the difference in role?
> [/quote
> 
> I'd be interested in this info too, they were all CIL Officers back in the 80's when I was a Cadet


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## Blackadder1916 (5 Dec 2019)

LittleBlackDevil said:
			
		

> I'm having a hard time finding information on what a GSO is/does vs. a CIC officer. What is the difference in role?



http://521aurorarcacs.ca/wp-content/uploads/Instructional_Guides/Level_5/PO507/EO_C507.01.pdf


> . . . COATS consists of members of the CIC as well as other members of the CF not belonging to the CIC MOSID who
> work with the Canadian Cadet Organizations (CCO). In addition to the CIC MOSID, COATS includes two other
> occupations: General Service Officer (COATS GS-OFF) and General Service Non-Commissioned Member
> (COATS GS-NCM). COATS GS-OFF and COATS GS-NCM MOSIDS exist *to allow Reg F and P Res officers
> ...



There are much more relaxed requirements for enrolment of CIC officers, most notably no requirement for a CIC officer to have an undergraduate degree while a COATS GS-OFF has to meet the enrolment and occupational training requirements of the MOSID that he was in before transferring to COATS.


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## Old EO Tech (5 Dec 2019)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> http://521aurorarcacs.ca/wp-content/uploads/Instructional_Guides/Level_5/PO507/EO_C507.01.pdf
> There are much more relaxed requirements for enrolment of CIC officers, most notably no requirement for a CIC officer to have an undergraduate degree while a COATS GS-OFF has to meet the enrolment and occupational training requirements of the MOSID that he was in before transferring to COATS.



So in practice how are COATS GS Officers/NCM employed?  At the unit level or at the regional/national HQ levels?


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## catalyst (6 Dec 2019)

They're anywhere.  It was created so that those who did not meet U of S (or age) requirements could transfer and support the Cadet program, while remaining in uniform. I've worked with a COATS - GS NCM at the corps level, and a COATS GSO at the regional level.  Previously, they had to be on the SHR and it was administratively difficult to do so or enroll in the CIC (which caused issues at times). 

The thing is though they have to meet the standards for their trade to advance/etc so they are pretty much "remaining at their rank".


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## Old EO Tech (6 Dec 2019)

ArmySailor said:
			
		

> They're anywhere.  It was created so that those who did not meet U of S (or age) requirements could transfer and support the Cadet program, while remaining in uniform. I've worked with a COATS - GS NCM at the corps level, and a COATS GSO at the regional level.  Previously, they had to be on the SHR and it was administratively difficult to do so or enroll in the CIC (which caused issues at times).
> 
> The thing is though they have to meet the standards for their trade to advance/etc so they are pretty much "remaining at their rank".



Interesting, but yes your last point is not much different than being an SRCP Officer, technically we are promotable, but we have none of the check boxes needed to merit high enough to actually be promoted :-/


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## catalyst (7 Dec 2019)

Worked with one of 'em too - super administrator. 

At the very least, it was created to make it easier to work with Cadets. The actual execution....not so much.   The more corporate knowledge we can get from the CAF in order to make the program better for the Cadets and to increase the professional development of the CIC - the better.


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