# mandatory service



## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Sean Stepan" <private_sean@budweiser.com>* on *15 Nov 2000 23:47:38 -0000*
i just thought i‘d try to stir the conversation pot a little and ask the question "Why not have mandatory military service in canada?"
there are, of course, pros and cons to the concept of it, but it seems to me like there are a lot of young people out there struggling to find work, and that the population, in general, doesnt really have much of a clue whats what with the military. i think it would be an opportunity to solve both those problems, and several more im sure. mandatory service is done in many countries throughout the world, so why dont we give it a go here? sure, we had it during one of the world warsmight have been both, i cant remember, but this is a peacetime situation we are dealing with now, so i see no real reason why it couldnt be implemented.
any thoughts, guys?
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com>* on *Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:16:31 -0800*
>"Why not have mandatory military service in canada?"
We already don‘t have mandatory military service in Canada.  The question should
be rephrased in the positive:
"Why have mandatory military service in Canada?"
This places the burden of proof on advocates of compulsory service, rather than
those who are happy with the situation now.
Leaving the semantics aside:
>there are a lot of young people out there struggling to find work
If so, taking them out of the work/education force for some undetermined length
of time is not helping them to improve their skills or find a job.  6 or 12
months or more as a conscript digging holes and bashing squares does not add
much depth to a resume.
>the population, in general, doesnt really have much of a clue whats what with
the military
Enforced service as a public relations measure seems highly inappropriate.
>mandatory service is done in many countries throughout the world
We must ask ourselves why.  Some countries had or have a direct threat eg. most
European countries during the Cold War.  In others, military service is so
unappealing that desired force levels can be maintained only by compulsory
service eg. Russia.  We don‘t have a direct threat, and I suggest that the
only thing preventing Canada from maintaining larger armed forces is money.
Brad Sallows
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:00:57 -0500*
Why not mandatory service? How about:
        - funding pay, equipment, infrastructure - which programs do we
take it from education?, medical? EI?, or do we increase taxes just to add
to the public‘s good feelings about our wondrous generosity in offering this
bold employment initiative
        - political inclination to try and convince the public it‘s
worthwhile - tell us what argument you‘d use
        - staff - we have enough problems staffing the Training Centres in
the summer
        - equality of each citizen‘s contribution - does everyone do it, or
just the number that we can afford each year, how do we pick them?
And, if there are so many young people "struggling to find work" who are,
assumedly by your argument, amenable to military service, then why aren‘t
they finding their own way to the Recruiting Centres and Armouries asking
for their opportunity to serve? Could it be because they don‘t want to do it
and we have failed thus far to convince them its a good career choice?
The first public outcry against such a proposal would be that it is solely
to correct a recruiting crisis in a proposed expanded force. There is no
altruistic argument available that would convince the public that it is
really for their own good.
One thing is certain though - with a populace whose closest experience with
conscription being the American Forces during the Vietnam War, the public
outcry against compulsory service would be make the anti-conscription
activism of the World Wars look like a Governor-General‘s garden party.
Mike
The Regimental Rogue
 http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com 
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean Stepan 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 6:47 PM
Subject: mandatory service
> i just thought i‘d try to stir the conversation pot a little and ask the
question "Why not have mandatory military service in canada?"
> there are, of course, pros and cons to the concept of it, but it seems to
me like there are a lot of young people out there struggling to find work,
and that the population, in general, doesnt really have much of a clue whats
what with the military. i think it would be an opportunity to solve both
those problems, and several more im sure. mandatory service is done in many
countries throughout the world, so why dont we give it a go here? sure, we
had it during one of the world warsmight have been both, i cant remember,
but this is a peacetime situation we are dealing with now, so i see no real
reason why it couldnt be implemented.
> any thoughts, guys?
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Jay Digital" <todesengel@home.com>* on *Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:53:03 -0500*
I think it would be a waste of the limited resources our military has now.
It would be a huge drain to train hundreds of thousands of young people and
somewhat of a waste if they were only going to serve for 2 years. I think it
would be a great idea if the DND had an unlimited budget but considering
they‘re limited to more meagre means I don‘t really think it would fly.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Stepan" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 6:47 PM
Subject: mandatory service
> i just thought i‘d try to stir the conversation pot a little and ask the
question "Why not have mandatory military service in canada?"
> there are, of course, pros and cons to the concept of it, but it seems to
me like there are a lot of young people out there struggling to find work,
and that the population, in general, doesnt really have much of a clue whats
what with the military. i think it would be an opportunity to solve both
those problems, and several more im sure. mandatory service is done in many
countries throughout the world, so why dont we give it a go here? sure, we
had it during one of the world warsmight have been both, i cant remember,
but this is a peacetime situation we are dealing with now, so i see no real
reason why it couldnt be implemented.
> any thoughts, guys?
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob A." <carversbench@csolve.net>* on *Thu, 16 Nov 2000 08:14:33 -0500*
I presented this question a while back Sean being a bit of a pot 
stirring advocate myself and though the idea does, at first, seem to 
have some positive potential I have to agree with guys like Bradley and 
Ian. What I think personally is that Canada just isn‘t pro military 
enough to back it. Even if ,after basic, young soldiers could be 
filtered into trades that supported their interests and abilities you 
would still be stuck with having to find enough work in the given trades 
for them to do to keep busy.
I don‘t think the military is the right place for a make work project.
If it were to happen the planning and cost would be huge. This raises 
another question. Do you think the public could be convinced to spend 
money in those quantities on a defence budget that most don‘t give a 
damn about now?
I could go on but I know from expense your likely going to get an earful 
inbox full of opinions far more knowledgeable than my own on this 
subject.
In closing I‘ll just say that in an ideal world it could be a great 
thing for Canada. In the world we live in now however take it or leave 
it I don‘t think the idea would get much farther than this BBS.
RobA
----- Original Message -----
  From: Sean Stepan
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 6:47 PM
  Subject: mandatory service
  i just thought i‘d try to stir the conversation pot a little and ask 
the question "Why not have mandatory military service in canada?"
  there are, of course, pros and cons to the concept of it, but it seems 
to me like there are a lot of young people out there struggling to find 
work, and that the population, in general, doesnt really have much of a 
clue whats what with the military. i think it would be an opportunity to 
solve both those problems, and several more im sure. mandatory service 
is done in many countries throughout the world, so why dont we give it a 
go here? sure, we had it during one of the world warsmight have been 
both, i cant remember, but this is a peacetime situation we are dealing 
with now, so i see no real reason why it couldnt be implemented.
  any thoughts, guys?
  _________________________________________________________________
  Get your FREE Budweiser E-mail account at  http://budweiser.com 
  Budweiser E-Mail must be used responsibly and only is for consumers 21 
years of age and older!


  Disclaimer: Neither Anheuser-Busch, Inc. the makers of BUDWEISER 
beer nor the operator of this E-Mail service or their respective 
affiliates have seen, endorsed or approved any of the content in this 
e-mail and expressly disclaim all liability for the content in whole and 
in part.
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
I presented this question a while back Sean 
being a bit
of a pot stirring advocate myself andthough the idea does, at 
first, seem
to have some positive potential I have to agree with guys like Bradley 
and Ian.
What I think personally is that Canada just isn‘t pro military enough to 
back
it. Even if ,afterbasic, young soldiers could be filtered 
intotrades
that supported their interests and abilities you would still be stuck 
with
having to find enough work in the given trades for them to do to keep 
busy.
I don‘tthink the military is the right 
place for a
make work project.
If it were to happenthe planning and cost 
would be
huge.This raisesanother question. Do you think the 
publiccould
be convinced to spend money in those quantities on a defence budget that 
most
don‘t give a damn about now?
I could go on but I know from expense your 
likely going to
get an earful inbox full of opinions far more knowledgeable than my 
own on
this subject. 
In closing I‘ll just say that in an ideal world 
it could
be a great thing for Canada. In the world we live in now 
howevertake it
or leave it I don‘t think the idea would get much farther than this
BBS.
RobA
----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Sean Stepan 
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 
2000 6:47
  PM
  Subject: mandatory 
service
  i just thought i‘d try to stir the conversation pot a 
little
  and ask the question "Why not have mandatory military service in
  canada?"there are, of course, pros and cons to the concept of it, 
but it
  seems to me like there are a lot of young people out there struggling 
to find
  work, and that the population, in general, doesnt really have much of 
a clue
  whats what with the military. i think it would be an opportunity to 
solve both
  those problems, and several more im sure. mandatory service is done in 
many
  countries throughout the world, so why dont we give it a go here? 
sure, we had
  it during one of the world warsmight have been both, i cant 
remember, but
  this is a peacetime situation we are dealing with now, so i see no 
real reason
  why it couldnt be implemented.any thoughts,

guys?____________________________________________________________
_____Get
  your FREE Budweiser E-mail account at  http://budweiser.comBudweiser  
E-Mail must
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Inc.
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or
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content
  in this e-mail and expressly disclaim all liability for the content in 
whole
  and in

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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Mason" <maseroni@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:59:34 -0600*
Quite honestly if young people are struggling to find work, and have
exhausted every avenue and there is still nothing available, I‘m not sure
the Army, Air Force, or Navy is a better place for them.  If McDonald‘s
turned them down... why would we give them a rifle?
Secondly, the average Canadian may not know much about the CF except what
they hear on the news, and the media does do an excellent job of painting
the military as a bunch of out-of-shape, ill-trained, undisciplined
soldiers.  However, mandatory military service does not make that go away.
Indeed, the more stretch the already thin training resources, the more
out-of-shape, ill-trained, and undisciplined the soldiers become then those
soldiers train the next bunch, perpetuating the situation.  As for public
awareness of the military, I think that‘s an issue that could be better
dealt with through positive PR Commercials, like the US Army‘s "Be all that
you can be!". Forcing a kid to eat his broccoli does not necessarily make
him love it, or even like it better he still hates broccoli, however,
putting a little cheese on it may.
Thirdly, we are in no immediate danger of a large scale attack, therefore, a
limited, well trained Armed force is more akin to our present needs.  Canada
has an excellent record of being able to raise a formidable army when the
need arises.  Besides, would it not be better to put the extra money it
would take to keep and supply a large, useless force into education?  So
that when the need does arise, hopefully never, for the next generation‘s
sake we have a smarter breed of soldier that has seen the world through the
eyes of education, not war.  I‘m sure there‘s a really cool quote I could
use, but I don‘t know one!
Mason Fraser
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *m.oleary@ns.sympatico.ca Mike Oleary* on *Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:31:36 -0500*
"Smart bombs and smart weaponry need smart soldiers." - Hon. Arthur Eggleton
----- Original Message -----
From: Mason 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: mandatory service
> snip So that when the need does arise, hopefully never, for the next
generation‘s
> sake we have a smarter breed of soldier that has seen the world through
the
> eyes of education, not war.  I‘m sure there‘s a really cool quote I could
> use, but I don‘t know one!
>
> Mason Fraser
> --------------------------------------------------------
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Mason" <maseroni@hotmail.com>* on *Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:33:35 -0600*
Thanks Mike!
That‘s also one more reason why we don‘t just want the average Joe to become
GI Joe.  If  "Smart bombs and smart weaponry need smart soldiers.", then we
can‘t afford to have McDonald‘s rejects if we won‘t give them a rifle, why
give them something bigger?
Mason
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Rob A." <carversbench@csolve.net>* on *Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:44:57 -0500*
Now that‘s a good quote!!!
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Mike Oleary
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
  Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 10:31 PM
  Subject: Re: mandatory service
  "Smart bombs and smart weaponry need smart soldiers." - Hon. Arthur 
Eggleton
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Mason 
  To: 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:59 PM
  Subject: Re: mandatory service
  > snip So that when the need does arise, hopefully never, for the next
  generation‘s
  > sake we have a smarter breed of soldier that has seen the world 
through
  the
  > eyes of education, not war.  I‘m sure there‘s a really cool quote I 
could
  > use, but I don‘t know one!
  >
  > Mason Fraser
  > --------------------------------------------------------
  > NOTE:  To remove yourself from this list, send a message
  > to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
  > to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
  > message body.
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  to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
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  message body.
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
Now that‘s a good quote!!!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From:
  Mike
  Oleary 
  To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 
2000 10:31
  PM
  Subject: Re: mandatory 
service
  "Smart bombs and smart weaponry need smart soldiers." - 
Hon.
  Arthur Eggleton----- Original Message -----From: Mason 
ltmaseroni@hotmail.comgtTo: 
ltarmy@cipherlogic.on.cagt
Sent:
  Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:59 PMSubject: Re: mandatory
  servicegt snipltgt So that when the need does 
arise,
  hopefully never, for the nextgeneration‘sgt sake we have a 
smarter
  breed of soldier that has seen the world throughthegt eyes 
of
  education, not war. I‘m sure there‘s a really cool quote I 
couldgt
  use, but I don‘t know one!gtgt Mason Frasergt
  --------------------------------------------------------gt 
NOTE:
  To remove yourself from this list, send a messagegt to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from
  the account you wishgt to remove, with the line "unsubscribe 
army" in
  thegt message

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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *"Joan O. Arc" <joan_o_arc@hotmail.com>* on *Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:25:16 GMT*
Re: the media "painting
the military as a bunch of out-of-shape, ill-trained, undisciplined
soldiers", which seems to be a recurring theme on this list.
While the media is, Lord knows, chock-a-block with idiots And, to be fair, 
also with people who are pushed so hard by their editors/producers and/or by 
budget constraints that half the errors they make are because they genuinely 
don‘t have time to do proper research, and, unfortunately, wind up spouting 
ill-informed rhetoric, instead., my impression - as a civvy, anyway - is 
that while there are some members of the press who do indeed do what Mason 
suggests, most Canadians have been, in recent years, anyway, been more 
struck by how hard-working and decent the men and women of the Forces are, 
and how underpaid many of them are for their efforts. Though it is 
certainly true that when incidents like the Somalia scandal erupt, most 
journo types are more than happy to bring out the knives.
Anyway, the above is not meant to be argumentative, but merely to try to 
make the CF members of this list feel better about their "public image".
The *real* long-term problem for the military, or, at least, so it seems to 
me, is a dearth of politicians with a clear interest in and understanding of 
foreign affairs, which in turn leads to a lack of clear and purposeful 
foreign, defense, and intelligence policies intended to promote and protect 
Canada‘s interests at home and abroad.
- Joan
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mason" 
Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
To: 
Subject: Re: mandatory service
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:59:34 -0600
Quite honestly if young people are struggling to find work, and have
exhausted every avenue and there is still nothing available, I‘m not sure
the Army, Air Force, or Navy is a better place for them.  If McDonald‘s
turned them down... why would we give them a rifle?
Secondly, the average Canadian may not know much about the CF except what
they hear on the news, and the media does do an excellent job of painting
the military as a bunch of out-of-shape, ill-trained, undisciplined
soldiers.  However, mandatory military service does not make that go away.
Indeed, the more stretch the already thin training resources, the more
out-of-shape, ill-trained, and undisciplined the soldiers become then those
soldiers train the next bunch, perpetuating the situation.  As for public
awareness of the military, I think that‘s an issue that could be better
dealt with through positive PR Commercials, like the US Army‘s "Be all that
you can be!". Forcing a kid to eat his broccoli does not necessarily make
him love it, or even like it better he still hates broccoli, however,
putting a little cheese on it may.
Thirdly, we are in no immediate danger of a large scale attack, therefore, a
limited, well trained Armed force is more akin to our present needs.  Canada
has an excellent record of being able to raise a formidable army when the
need arises.  Besides, would it not be better to put the extra money it
would take to keep and supply a large, useless force into education?  So
that when the need does arise, hopefully never, for the next generation‘s
sake we have a smarter breed of soldier that has seen the world through the
eyes of education, not war.  I‘m sure there‘s a really cool quote I could
use, but I don‘t know one!
Mason Fraser
--------------------------------------------------------
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Re
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## army (22 Sep 2002)

Posted by *Juno847627709@aol.com* on *Thu, 16 Nov 2000 21:40:54 EST*
Sean,
        Actually, we had discussed this issue a while ago and seemed quite 
divided on it. However, just like every other time, you‘ll get a ton of great 
responses.
                                        -Matt
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