# Toast to/Table for the Fallen (merged)



## catalyst (7 Sep 2009)

When I was at Mirage for Christmas, there was a small table set to the side of the dining area that was in honour of the fallen - the PMC read out what each item signified. Does anyone have the text for this? the only one I could find while googling was for a Vietnam POW from the US.


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## PuckChaser (7 Sep 2009)

http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/srsub/mess_dinner_organization_c.htm


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## gaspasser (8 Sep 2009)

Was that in the dining hall?  We didn't have a "mess" when I was there ergo, no PMC. Or didyou actually have a mess dinner at the end of your tour?  Nice!   
We had a table set out with gravemarkers and photos during Remembrance Day.  Kind of eerie, but we remembered them.    The "other" contingent thought it low and crass as the markers were "carved" out of lard. 
I like the idea of a Fallen Comrades table, I've not heard of it before.  
   129
BYTD


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## kratz (8 Sep 2009)

Last year, at a retirement dinner for a senior officer, in the mess they had a table for the fallen as well. It was the first time I had heard of it as well. I think it is a positive education to see subtle inclusive reminders of our fallen in our ceremonies.


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## medicineman (8 Sep 2009)

I've been to a few mess dinners in the US - they have a table and setting put aside for MIA's/KIA's as part of their tradition.  Perhaps it has rubbed off a bit.

MM


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## Ammo (8 Sep 2009)

They have been doing it for a couple of years now in Ottawa. Here is a picture of the table in question


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Sep 2009)

We've been doing this one at our dinners for, at least, the last 12-15 years. Feel free to copy and use it also.

Setting:

Small table covered with a white table cloth and a chair leaning against the table.

A bread plate on the table with a slice of lemon and an aperitif glass containing salt.

A red rose in a vase, the vase tied with a red ribbon.

A wine glass inverted on the table

If possible, the table and setting will be placed under a spotlight and the rest of the room dimmed

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN...

YOU MAY HAVE NOTICED THIS SMALL TABLE SET IN A PLACE OF HONOUR. IT IS SET 

FOR ONE... THIS TABLE IS OUR WAY OF RECOGNISING THE KINDRED FEELING, THAT 

MEMBERS OF OUR PROFESSION OF ARMS ARE MISSING FROM OUR MIDST... WE CALL THEM 

BROTHERS AND SISTERS. THEY ARE UNABLE TO BE HERE WITH US AND SO WE REMEMBER 

THEM.

THIS TABLE SET FOR ONE IS SMALL.... IT SYMBOLISES THE FRAILTY OF OUR COMRADES 

AGAINST OPPRESSION.

THE TABLE CLOTH IS WHITE... SYMBOLISING THE PURITY OF THEIR INTENTIONS, TO 

RESPOND TO THEIR COUNTRY'S CALL TO ARMS.

THE SINGLE ROSE DISPLAYED IN A VASE REMINDS US OF THE FAMILIES AND THE LOVED 

ONES OF OUR COMRADES WHO KEEP THE FAITH BY REMEMBERING THEM AND NEVER 

FORGETTING THEIR SACRIFICES.

THE RED RIBBON TIED SO PROMINENTLY ON THE VASE BEARS WITNESS TO THEIR 

DETERMINATION TO DEMAND A PROPER ACCOUNTING OF THEIR VALOUR AND

SACRIFICE.

THE SLICE OF LEMON IS ON THE BREAD PLATE TO REMIND US OF THEIR BITTER FATE.

THE SALT UPON THE BREAD PLATE IS SYMBOLIC OF THE FAMILY TEARS AS THEY REMEMBER 

AND MOURN THEM.

THE GLASS IS INVERTED....THEY CANNOT TOAST WITH US TONIGHT.

THE CHAIR....THE CHAIR IS EMPTY.....THEY ARE NOT HERE.

REMEMBER ! ALL OF YOU WHO SERVED WITH THEM, OR NOW LIVE IN FREEDOM 

BECAUSE OF THEM, WE RELIED AND DEPENDED ON THEM. DO NOT FORSAKE THEM. PRAY FOR 

THEM AND REMEMBER THEM.... 

WE WILL REMEMBER THEM.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, TO FALLEN COMRADES


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## Edward Campbell (8 Sep 2009)

I do not know where this custom originated. I can tell you that in about a half century of “dining in” in American, Australian, Belgian, British, Canadian, Dutch, German, Indian, New Zealand and Singaporean officers’ (and, now and again sergeants’) messes I have never seen it. Not once.

Some regiments and corps in some armies had a custom, once a year or so, of toasting _”Absent Friends”_ or something like that; the Navy did it (still does it?) every Sunday, at sea.

Customs come and go. We often forget why some even exist. Who remembers, for example, why the table is cleared before the loyal toast is proposed? (Hint: _Jacobites_ and water glasses.) This _custom_, if indeed it is done on anything but an exceptional basis, may or may not persist.

But it seems a bit strange, to me, that the generations who survived South Africa, The First and Second World Wars and Korea felt no need to do something special to remind themselves that the _”best of the lot”_ were _absent_, in their tens of thousands amongst the Canadians, that they made the supreme sacrifice so that we could dine in good fellowship, while we some of you now *fuss* over a few dozen. Perhaps the “old sweats” were just too sanguine; perhaps they didn’t need any help remembering.



Edit: two typos


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## dangerboy (8 Sep 2009)

It has been a fairly new addition to the dinners ( at least in my experiance).  The first time I saw the Table for the Fallen was around 2007.


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## Fishbone Jones (8 Sep 2009)

Edward,

Given my age and length of service, I'll consider myself one of those 'old sweats'. Just because it hadn't been done before, it's no reason to dismiss it out of hand. Personally, I like it. It seems to add a certain dignity to the affair. I have yet to see it done where someone, often the privileged guests, doesn't make comment on how touching or appropriate it is. I'm not going to get in a pissing match over this, but what is the problem of showing a little thanks and remembrance? No harm, no foul.

Oh I remember now, stiff upper lip, pip pip, and all that tosh right?  ;D Bet you'd near go apoplectic to see salt and pepper on the table now too. :blotto:


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## Edward Campbell (8 Sep 2009)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Edward,
> 
> Given my age and length of service, I'll consider myself one of those 'old sweats'. Just because it hadn't been done before, it's no reason to dismiss it out of hand. Personally, I like it. It seems to add a certain dignity to the affair. I have yet to see it done where someone, often the privileged guests, doesn't make comment on how touching or appropriate it is. I'm not going to get in a pissing match over this, but what is the problem of showing a little thanks and remembrance? No harm, no foul.
> 
> Oh I remember now, stiff upper lip, pip pip, and all that tosh right?  ;D Bet you'd near go apoplectic to see salt and pepper on the table now too. :blotto:



Don't get me wrong. I don't particularly *object* to it.

I guess I harbour some (rather unformed) doubts about what it says about us.




			
				recceguy said:
			
		

> ... Bet you'd near go apoplectic to see salt and pepper on the table now too. :blotto:




Damned right! They are welcome at certain points in the dinner, not at others.

But customs change, as I said. I was at a recent dinner night where the table was not fully cleared before the loyal toast. The mess committee had tried its best to contain costs and that included some slight and quite harmless alterations to some old _customs_. The end effects fo their efforts was to be able to get by with one less server and, therefore, achieve a slightly lower cost per person than would otherwise have been the case. Their efforts were warmly welcomed, especially by the serving officers who were *encouraged* to attend.


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## armyvern (8 Sep 2009)

We've had a Fallen Comrades table set up at our Mess Dinners for many years now; although - I have never seen one set-up that includes the dreaded pepper & ours has always been a Bistro table - never square or rectangular.

Below are my notes kept in my PMC file ... (includes the explanation of the table set-up and the Toast to Fallen Comrades [offered by the VPMC during the dinner]):

_______________________
*Fallen Comrades Table*

You may have noticed the small table set for one that is off on its own -- it is reserved to honour our fallen comrades in arms. This symbolizes that they are with us, here in spirit.  We should never forget the brave men and women who answered our nation's call [to serve] and served the cause of freedom in a special way.  We are ever mindful that the sweetness of enduring peace has always been tainted by the bitterness of personal sacrifice. We are compelled to never forget that while we enjoy our daily pleasures, there are others who have endured the agonies of pain, deprivation and death.

I would like to explain the meaning of the items on this special table.

The table is round -- to show our everlasting concern for our fallen comrades.

The tablecloth is white -- symbolizing the purity of their motives when answering the call to duty.

The single red rose, displayed in a vase, reminds us of the life of each of our fallen comrades, and the loved ones and friends of these comrades who keep the faith.

The vase is tied with a red ribbon, symbol of our continued determination to remember our fallen comrades.

A slice of lemon on the bread plate is to remind us of the bitter fate of those who will never return.

A pinch of salt symbolizes the tears endured by the families of those who have sacrificed all.

The Bible represents the strength gained through faith to sustain those lost from our country under God.

The glass is inverted, they cannot toast with us at this time.

The chair is empty -- they are no longer with us.

Let us remember - and never forget their sacrifice.

May God forever watch over them and protect them and their families.
__________________________

*À nos camarades disparus*

Peut-être avez-vous remarqué la petite table, à l’écart, mise pour une seule personne  elle sert à honorer nos camarades disparus. Elle symbolise leur présence parmi nous, en esprit. Nous ne devrions jamais oublier ces braves hommes et ces braves femmes qui ont répondu à l’appel du drapeau et qui ont servi la cause de la liberté d’une manière hautement particulièrement. Nous gardons toujours à l’esprit que la douceur d’une paix durable est invariablement teintée de l’amertume du sacrifice personnel. Il importe que nous n’oubliions jamais, même dans nos plaisirs quotidiens, que d’autres ont enduré l’angoisse de la douleur, des privations et de la mort.

J’aimerais expliquer la signification des objets placés sur cette table spéciale.

La table est ronde pour montrer que nous nous soucierons éternellement de nos camarades disparus.

La nappe est blanche elle symbolise la pureté de leurs motifs au moment de répondre à l’appel du devoir.

La rose rouge, placée dans un vase, nous rappelle la vie de chacun de nos camarades disparus et celle de leurs proches et de leurs amis, qui ont gardé la foi.

Le vase est entouré d’un ruban rouge, symbole de notre détermination inébranlable de ne pas laisser tomber dans l’oubli nos chers disparus.

La tranche de citron sur l’assiette à pain nous rappelle que ceux et celles qui ne reviendront jamais ont connu un destin amer.

La pincée de sel symbolise les larmes des familles de ceux et celles qui ont tout sacrifié.

La Bible représente la force que donne la foi, la force qui permet de soutenir la perte des camarades que Dieu a rappelés à lui.

Le verre est retourné pour nous rappeler qu’ils ne peuvent plus trinquer avec nous.

La chaise est vide signe qu’ils ne sont plus parmi nous.

Souvenons nous et n’oublions jamais le sacrifice qu’ils ont fait.

Puisse Dieu veiller sur eux et les protéger pour toujours, eux et les membres de leur famille.
__________________________

*A TOAST TO FALLEN COMRADES*

Let us give thanks for the many blessings we have received.  Let us thank God for watching over Canada and us and allowing us to enjoy the freedoms we experience every day.  However let us also remember the great price that was paid for that freedom too many times. 

We knew them.  They lived, they felt, they were as vibrant, as energetic, as immortal as you and I.  They were brave.  They fell for peace and for freedom in the service of their country. Many may argue about the futility of death and of war, but one should never forget that they died, not in vain, but in honour.

Many times down through the years our country has called, and many men and women have answered the call.  Let us not forget our fallen comrades, but remember them always, for they have earned our respect and admiration with their lives.

We knew them, we'll remember them, and they will not be forgotten.

To our fallen comrades! 
________________________

*UN TOAST À NOS CAMARADES DISPARUS*

Exprimons notre reconnaissance pour les nombreux bienfaits que nous avons reçus. Remercions Dieu qui veille sur le Canada et sur nous, et qui nous permet de profiter chaque jour de notre liberté. Cependant, n’oublions pas le prix énorme qu’il a fallu payer, maintes fois, pour la garder. 

Nous les avons connus. Ils vivaient, ils avaient des sentiments, ils étaient aussi vibrants, énergétiques et immortels que vous et moi. Ils étaient braves. Ils sont tombés pour défendre la paix et la liberté, au service de leur pays. D’aucuns pourraient prétendre qu’il est futile de faire la guerre et de mourir au combat, mais il ne faut jamais oublier qu’ils sont morts, non pas en vain, mais dans l’honneur.

Notre pays nous a appelés sous les drapeaux à plusieurs reprises au cours des années, et nombre d’hommes et de femmes ont répondu à cet appel. N’oublions pas nos camarades disparus, souvenons nous d’eux pour toujours, car le sacrifice de leur vie les rend dignes de respect et d’admiration.

Nous les connaissions, nous nous souviendrons d’eux, nous ne les laisserons jamais tomber dans l’oubli.

À nos camarades disparus!


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## gaspasser (8 Sep 2009)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> Customs come and go. We often forget why some even exist. Who remembers, for example, why the table is cleared before the loyal toast is proposed? (Hint: _Jacobites_ and water glasses.) This _custom_, if indeed it is done on anything but an exceptional basis, may or may not persist.
> 
> 
> Edit: two typos



Edward, are you referring to the *R*oyal toast or the *L*oyal toast? 

I would hazard a guess that it has something to do with Bonnie Prince Charlie and not the king at the time {who's name escapes me??} Richard ???
The water glass refers to Skye...{which is a very depressing tune many of us would hear while the reviewing officer is reviewing the troops on parade}

When I have the opportunity to imbibe in a few wet ones, with or without company, my first one is always tapped to the table to remember those who came before me.  Not sure where I got that from??!!


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## Old Sweat (8 Sep 2009)

The water used to be removed so that Jacobites could not pass their glasses over the water , thus drinking the toast "to the king over the water." And, of course, that was to the Stuarts, exiled in France over the water. On occasion, in memory of my Highland ancestors I have done the same, even though I firmly believe the Stuarts plumbed the depths of stupidity and incompetence to such a level that even the other Royal families of Europe finally noticed.


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## Edward Campbell (9 Sep 2009)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Edward, are you referring to the *R*oyal toast or the *L*oyal toast?
> 
> I would hazard a guess that it has something to do with Bonnie Prince Charlie and not the king at the time {who's name escapes me??} Richard ???
> The water glass refers to Skye...{which is a very depressing tune many of us would hear while the reviewing officer is reviewing the troops on parade}
> ...




It is, properly, the Loyal Toast. The _issues_ of loyalty to the reigning royalty go _waaaaay_ back - think of the Wars of the Roses, the decline and end of the Plantagenets (_circa_ 1450-1490).

Old Sweat has it right: the Stuarts, clearly the dumbest dynasty, were "over the water" in France - kindred spirits and all that - while the Brits got used to a parade of monarchs: Dutch, English, German and, finally, in 1837, English, again.

As sweatie says the Stuart fantasy persists, to this day - the ultimate Walts.

Sorry, folks: Off Topic.


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## gaspasser (9 Sep 2009)

Edward, I don't think it's going off topic.  Traditions seems to be the overall theme here; which seem to be a lost art these days.  As a JrNCO (do they still call us that?)i.e.CPL, I don't often go to mess dinners and the traditions there are slowly edging away.  Toasts from all elements, Regiments, ships etc..are slipping.  Perhaps we can add them to this thread? 
Oh, and thanks for the info about the Jacobites...Heehee, perhaps I'll do that at my next dinner or beer call.


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## Edward Campbell (9 Sep 2009)

BYT Driver said:
			
		

> Edward, I don't think it's going off topic.  *Traditions seems to be the overall theme here*; which seem to be a lost art these days ...




Indeed, and I have found a very old (27 Dec 2004) post of mine, which, while focused on uniforms, pretty well sums up my current views on traditions:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/1172/post-140718.html#msg140718


> This, _full dress and feathers_ is a silly argument, but I am impressed, perhaps depressed is a better word, by the lack of attention displayed, in this and other threads, to our history - especially our military history - and the symbolism which attaches to it.
> 
> There are five main 'threads' in the strands of our history: Aboriginal, French, British (as opposed to English), American and Modern/Multicultural.   Each is different in both duration and impact; the aboriginal people were here longest but their (historical or cultural) 'step' was _light_ - they left too few records and historians are having difficulty giving it its full and proper 'place' (due, in part to a combination of fragmentary evidence, cultural politics (which is common to all cultures, by the way)and honest, essential academic disagreement).   The modern/multi-cultural thread is shortest but its immediate impact is bright and loud and all pervasive, on everything but the military - so far, but, to quote generations of sergeants on thousands of parade squares: *“Wait for it!*   The French were the major factor in 'modern' Canada for 250 years - they explored, settled and farmed but failed to _exploit_; their gaze was always back, over their shoulders, to France.   For the next 250 years the influences in Canada were British and (Anglo) American, in about equal strength.   They cannot be separated too much - they were concurrent influences, one feeding off the other. It is a common, but serious error to try to keep them apart.   Victorian and 20th century Canada was and remains far less 'British' than, say, distant New Zealand - the _French fact_ is irrelevant - the difference is the friendly, familiar, neighbourly and overwhelming influence of our _American cousins_.
> 
> ...




A few things have changed: de Salaberry and several others from our *war* history have been put on public view.

But, my views on traditions are about the same as my views on uniforms: they matter but thgey are, properly, ever changing and we need at keep and *polish* the best of them and discard the cheap, plastic ones. Our evolving traditions will, inevitably, reflect more and more American and less and less British influence. That isn’t a good or a bad thing, it’s just the nature of our environment.


Edit: extra word removed


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## ModlrMike (25 Sep 2010)

Does anyone have the text of the Robbie Burns poem by this name? I may need it in the near future and my google-fu didn't help.


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## the 48th regulator (25 Sep 2010)

A toast to friends, was not a Robbie Burns poem.  It is actually just what it says a toast to the Absent.  The Person giving this toast makes this on up, and personalizes it with names of friends that are absent.  He may also make it short and sweet, A Toast to Absent Friends.

I did find this one;

_*A Toast to Absent Friends*
"to absent friends
to those we have met
to those we have yet to meet
to those who have left us for a while
and to those who have left us forever

let us lift our glasses
and drink a toast
that they may abide in our hearts
forever

to absent friends"_

dileas

tess


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## ModlrMike (25 Sep 2010)

That's probably the one I was thinking of. I'm not certain whether it is or is not ascribed to Burns, but it's in his style.

Thanks!


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## BDTyre (16 Dec 2010)

I wasn't quite sure where to post this, but if anyone has a few suggestions or pointers for a Toast to the Fallen, I'd appreciate it if you could share them with me. Our men's Christmas dinner (Ortona) is coming up (this Saturday) and I've been asked to give the Toast to the Fallen. I've never done this before, and I want to make sure I don't do a disservice to those I'm toasting.


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## Redeye (16 Dec 2010)

Have you asked if the Regiment has a traditional toast (or some guidance) for the same?

I've heard the toast simply made "to absent friends", which I think is simple but solemn.  My former Regiment, the Hastings & Prince Edward Regiment, toasts "The White Battalion", the collective refererence to our fallen brethren.

(With the Hasty P's I went to visit Ortona and saw among other things the graves of the Seaforths who were killed when the Germans blew the house they were in up. Ortona stands out because it looks so new, unlike the other towns around it, having been the scene of such savage fighting)



			
				CanadianTire said:
			
		

> I wasn't quite sure where to post this, but if anyone has a few suggestions or pointers for a Toast to the Fallen, I'd appreciate it if you could share them with me. Our men's Christmas dinner (Ortona) is coming up (this Saturday) and I've been asked to give the Toast to the Fallen. I've never done this before, and I want to make sure I don't do a disservice to those I'm toasting.


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## Michael OLeary (16 Dec 2010)

The section on toasts in this article: Mess Dinners; Advice for Subaltern Organizers of provides a link to a somewhat overdeveloped version which (I believe) migrated north from use in the US.

Toast to Fallen Comrades

Bear in mind that using the separate table, etc., and the full intro can put a damper on the atmosphere of the dinner.  While the full setup and introduction may have a place at some functions, I have found that a simple toast of "To our fallen comrades" (and no separate setting laid) is equally effective.


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## Edward Campbell (16 Dec 2010)

I agree with Michael O'Leary: I have seen the table setting and formal toast used in Canada. I must say, with considerable regret, that I, personally, find it overdone and, in a certain way, distasteful.

I have always found "To absent friends" to be flexible, _complete_, tasteful and _appropriate_.


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## BDTyre (17 Dec 2010)

Thanks for the advice everyone. I asked my PMC for suggestions and he pretty much gave me free reign, as long as it was tasteful and reasonably short. As far as I know, my regiment has no traditional toast to the fallen comrades; we do have our (Gaelic) regimental toast though. The empty place setting is/was being considered but it seems like now we're going to forego it.


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## ballz (10 Dec 2014)

Hello all,

I, like the OP over 4 years ago, have been asked to do the toast to the fallen in our mess dinner this Thursday. For the only two mess dinners I've been to at our Battalion, we've always used he separate place setting. I've consulted the Regimental Rogue (thanks Mr. O'Leary) and I just have one question...

The first time I ever saw this done was in Corner Brook, NL at 2 RNfldR. They ended it in a manner that I have not seen done since but was pretty powerful. Everything is as per the Regimental Rogue, except what I have added in yellow (to the best of my recollections)...

"I would like to explain the meaning of the items on this special table.

The table is round - to show our everlasting concern for our fallen comrades.
The tablecloth is white - symbolizing the purity of their motives when answering the call to duty.
The single red rose, displayed in a vase, reminds us of the life of each of our fallen comrades, and the loved ones and friends of these comrades who keep the faith.
The vase is tied with a red ribbon, symbol of our continued determination to remember our fallen comrades.
A slice of lemon on the bread plate is to remind us of the bitter fate of those who will never return.
A pinch of salt symbolizes the tears endured by the families of those who have sacrificed all.
The Holy Book represents the strength gained through faith to sustain those lost from our country.
The glass is inverted, they cannot toast with us at this time.
The chair is empty because they are no longer with us.
The flame represents their life, which burned for far too short a time, and has been extinguished (speaker doubts the flame)

Let us remember - and never forget their sacrifice. May they and their families ever be watched over and protected. Ladies and Gentlemen, to our fallen comrades..."

I asked a few people before about this, no one else seems to have seen it done this way... just wondering if anybody on here has?


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## daftandbarmy (10 Dec 2014)

ballz said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I, like the OP over 4 years ago, have been asked to do the toast to the fallen in our mess dinner this Thursday. For the only two mess dinners I've been to at our Battalion, we've always used he separate place setting. I've consulted the Regimental Rogue (thanks Mr. O'Leary) and I just have one question...
> 
> ...



We just do the 'To our fallen comrades' toast, then party like we're drinking for all of them...


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## Tibbson (10 Dec 2014)

Over the last many years I've seen the lone table set but at all the mess dinners I've ever been to the toast has been a simple and respectful "To our fallen Comrades" or something similar.  At the same time however the explanation of the lone table and place setting has been printed in the dinner program for those who choose to read it.


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## OldSolduer (10 Dec 2014)

Schindler's Lift said:
			
		

> Over the last many years I've seen the lone table set but at all the mess dinners I've ever been to the toast has been a simple and respectful "To our fallen Comrades" or something similar.  At the same time however the explanation of the lone table and place setting has been printed in the dinner program for those who choose to read it.



Personally I do not like the line table. It takes away from the event/function we are attending.

"To the Fallen" is sufficient in my mind.


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## Scoobie Newbie (10 Dec 2014)

TBH I don't think we had either this year.


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## medicineman (10 Dec 2014)

Honestly, the first time I ever saw the lone table at a mess dinner was actually at one I attended in Ft Drum with the US Army...this isn't a borrowed Americanism is it?  

MM


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## Pusser (10 Dec 2014)

I think the lone table and all the sap that goes with it is a borrowed Americanism.  It's certainly their style.  I don't mean any offence by that (so don't take it that way), but I do think it is over the top.  I prefer the much more subdued toast to "Absent Friends" (which, incidentally is the Navy's toast for Sunday anyway).  At the last dinner I organized, we simply set an extra place that remained vacant (place card said, "Absent Friends") and left it that. Most people understood what was going on and those that didn't could ask - which is how customs should be learned and preserved, not by long-winded sappy lectures (the salt is because we like salt on our food - it's as simple as that).   Because the Navy puts the PMC at the centre of the head table, we were able to use one end of the head table for our "Absent Friends," but I can see how that might be awkward at an Army dinner where the PMC often sits in that spot.  

The lecture gets even worse when read in a monotone by someone who's had a few and wasn't a particularly good public speaker to start with.  If it truly must be explained, then printing the explanation on the back of the menu is the best way to do that in my opinion.


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## OldSolduer (10 Dec 2014)

medicineman said:
			
		

> Honestly, the first time I ever saw the lone table at a mess dinner was actually at one I attended in Ft Drum with the US Army...this isn't a borrowed Americanism is it?
> 
> MM



I do believe it is.

I jumped all over a Captain, who thought it would be a good idea to have this at the Troops Christmas Dinner a few years ago. He also tried to do this using his own initiative......he did not fare well.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (10 Dec 2014)

I must say that in 26 and more years in the Navy, I have never seen an "absent friend" table used, and I believe that this is definitely not a Navy tradition. I have also had the chance of attending multiple mess diners in various Montreal Militia units and have seen the "absent friend" table used only once: It was at a mess diner set up by the Comm Squadron specifically for Remembrance Day, and that seemed quite appropriate in that setting. They gave the full "explanation". I was sitting beside a vet WWII Squadron Leader from the RCAF and asked about the tradition. I gathered from his answer that the tradition might have originated in the RAF during the war, but that was just my understanding.


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## George Wallace (10 Dec 2014)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I must say that in 26 and more years in the Navy, I have never seen an "absent friend" table used, and I believe that this is definitely not a Navy tradition. I have also had the chance of attending multiple mess diners in various Montreal Militia units and have seen the "absent friend" table used only once: It was at a mess diner set up by the Comm Squadron specifically for Remembrance Day, and that seemed quite appropriate in that setting. They gave the full "explanation". I was sitting beside a vet WWII Squadron Leader from the RCAF and asked about the tradition. I gathered from his answer that the tradition might have originated in the RAF during the war, but that was just my understanding.



With over 40 years in the Army, it is only in the last decade that I have seen this being done.  The origins may date back many decades, but it has likely been our Afghan Missions that have caused some units to resurrect it in some form or other.


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## exgunnertdo (10 Dec 2014)

I would bet money on it being borrowed/stolen from the Americans. I saw it (I think) for the first time at a military ball at Minot AFB in the early 90s. 

I also find it a bit overdone and am a bit dismayed that it seems to be considered a "mandatory" part of a dinner. Toast the Queen, toast the fallen, play the marches.  At my mess, the staff just automatically sets it up, whether the organizer of the dinner asks for it or not.


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## Edward Campbell (10 Dec 2014)

I also think this is another "creeping Americanism" and, _in my opinion_, an unwelcome one. There are appropriate times and places to honour our dear ~ dinner is not, _again in my opinion_, one of them. It seem to me that these maudlin displays actually *cheapen* the supreme sacrifice.

In some regiments and corps it was customary, usually at the regimental birthday type dinner, to add a toast to "absent friends" or something like that; it wasn't a universal custom. (But I remember being impressed, moved, at a dinner night in a German Panzer-Grenadier unit when, at the end of the meal, the subalterns stood and sang (chanted?) _ "Ich hatt' einen Kameraden"_. I was also somewhat surprised as I, mistakenly, associated it with the Nazis; my host explained that it was a very old, old dirge or lament and, while not heard often after WWII, was quite "proper" and some COs, he included, allowed it, now and again, on special occasions.)  But I never, in dining with several armies (and navies and air forces, too), in e.g. Australia, Britain, Germany, India, Netherlands, New Zealand and Singapore saw this custom, or anything like the empty table or empty place, except in the USA.


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## dimsum (10 Dec 2014)

E.R. Campbell said:
			
		

> I also think this is another "creeping Americanism" and, _in my opinion_, an unwelcome one. There are appropriate times and places to honour our dear ~ dinner is not, _again in my opinion_, one of them. It seem to me that these maudlin displays actually *cheapen* the supreme sacrifice.
> 
> In some regiments and corps it was customary, usually at the regimental birthday type dinner, to add a toast to "absent friends" or something like that; it wasn't a universal custom. (But I remember being impressed, moved, at a dinner night in a German Panzer-Grenadier unit when, at the end of the meal, the subalterns stood and sang (chanted?) _ "Ich hatt' einen Kameraden"_. I was also somewhat surprised as I, mistakenly, associated it with the Nazis; my host explained that it was a very old, old dirge or lament and, while not heard often after WWII, was quite "proper" and some COs, he included, allowed it, now and again, on special occasions.)  But I never, in dining with several armies (and navies and air forces, too), in e.g. Australia, Britain, Germany, India, Netherlands, New Zealand and Singapore saw this custom, or anything like the empty table or empty place, except in the USA.



At the RAAF Dining-In, there was an empty seat at the end of one of the wings.  There was no specific mention of it in the PMC/Vice's remarks though aside from a toast to absent friends.


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## Eye In The Sky (10 Dec 2014)

From CFACM 1-900 Air Command MESS DINNER PROCEDURES (Feb 2007)

20. ABSENT FRIENDS, FALLEN COMRADES - Depending on the reason for the Mess Dinner, the PMC may find it appropriate to include a reference to absent friends and fallen comrades. This could
take various forms including a toast, or a moment’s silence, or a small ceremony in front of a place setting with an empty chair, etc.


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## Rifleman62 (10 Dec 2014)

It is definitely the US POW-MIA Table.

Also used as part of their 11 Nov ceremonies of remembrance.


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## dapaterson (10 Dec 2014)

I was raised on Binyon's For the Fallen; following grace, the senior member (serving or retired) present would read out:



> They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
> Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
> At the going down of the sun and in the morning
> We will remember them.



And the dinner would begin.  The "new" ceremony is not among my favourites; that said, I know it is meaningful to quite a few who serve now, and I can overlook my slight distaste to provide them with some small measure of comfort.

Tradition is something that we've done for a long time for reasons we may not remember (or even know); but every tradition has to start somewhere.


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## armyvern (10 Dec 2014)

Jim Seggie said:
			
		

> I do believe it is.
> 
> I jumped all over a Captain, who thought it would be a good idea to have this at the Troops Christmas Dinner a few years ago. He also tried to do this using his own initiative......he did not fare well.



It's been at every Mess Dinner and Christmas Dinner that I've been to for years now.  Base-side, Regiment, Gagetown, Kingston, Petawawa.  'Twil be tomorrow too --- as I set it up today.


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## dimsum (11 Dec 2014)

dapaterson said:
			
		

> And the dinner would begin.  The "new" ceremony is not among my favourites; that said, I know it is meaningful to quite a few who serve now, and I can overlook my slight distaste to provide them with some small measure of comfort.
> 
> Tradition is something that we've done for a long time for reasons we may not remember (or even know); but every tradition has to start somewhere.



Exactly.  Traditions change and while the ones who remember "the times before" may not like it, it will persevere if it means something to the ones who are serving now and in the future.  

I, for one, am not a fan but will also put aside my distaste for it.


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## Oldgateboatdriver (11 Dec 2014)

Out of curiosity, last night I pulled out my old "Customs and Traditions of the Canadian Armed Forces", a pretty authoritative book written by E.C. Russell* and published in 1980. I re-read the whole section on the Mess and on supplementary Mess customs and traditions. The "supplementary" toast to Fallen Comrades is mentioned but nothing about a table for the missing comrades, with one exception: The 12e Régiment Blindé du Canada, at Trois-Rivières, Qc, which has a tradition of " a special table is always set in front of the head table, and the place setting of crystal, china and cutlery are laid in reverse, In this way, the regiment honours its dead".

However, as has been said above, customs and traditions evolve in time. Some change, some are abandoned and some are adopted. I think that for a military as "young" as Canada's this evolution is normal. We originally adopted British military traditions wholesale, but ever since WWI, have started adding our own, deleting those that didn't make sense for Canada and have adopted some new ones when circumstances warranted. However, before a new "tradition" is adopted and Canadianized, I think it is important that the "powers that be" (i.e. the RSM's in the Army, the Fleet Chief of Signals in the Navy and ??? in the Air Force) decide what is appropriate and what is not and under what  agreed circumstances the new custom or tradition is to be observed, and how.


* For those who do not know Mr. Russell, he served honourably in the R.C.A. and the R.C.N. in WWII, then stayed on in the reserves until 1960. He became the official historian of the R.C.N. until unification, at which time he was "absorbed" into DHist. staff as a senior historian for the CAF.


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## Pusser (11 Dec 2014)

Oldgateboatdriver said:
			
		

> I think it is important that the "powers that be" (i.e. the RSM's in the Army, the Fleet Chief of Signals in the Navy and ??? in the Air Force) decide what is appropriate and what is not and under what  agreed circumstances the new custom or tradition is to be observed, and how.



Such things should not be left to these "powers" alone.  In my opinion, too many things like this (e.g. dress) have been "hijacked" by the chiefs and/or "abdicated" by the officers.  We need more input on these matters from all quarters.


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## Rifleman62 (11 Dec 2014)

Oldgateboatdriver: 





> However, as has been said above, customs and traditions evolve in time. Some change, some are abandoned and some are adopted. I think that for a military as "young" as Canada's this evolution is normal. We originally adopted British military traditions wholesale, but ever since WWI, have started adding our own, deleting those that didn't make sense for Canada and have adopted some new ones when circumstances warranted.



A Tradition is anything done twice.

 :christmas happy:


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## armyvern (11 Dec 2014)

Dimsum said:
			
		

> Exactly.  Traditions change and while the ones who remember "the times before" may not like it, it will persevere if it means something to the ones who are serving now and in the future.
> 
> I, for one, am not a fan but will also put aside my distaste for it.



And, this is it.  Traditions change and some evolve.  I have, more than once, watched a few soldiers become teary-eyed during the toast to Fallen Comrades.  For the younger generation, this _newish_ tradition *does* mean something.  For that reason, I have zero issues with it.  It is their time to serve and I am fine with the torch they wish to now carry.


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## NSDreamer (12 Dec 2014)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> And, this is it.  Traditions change and some evolve.  I have, more than once, watched a few soldiers become teary-eyed during the toast to Fallen Comrades.  For the younger generation, this _newish_ tradition *does* mean something.  For that reason, I have zero issues with it.  It is their time to serve and I am fine with the torch they wish to now carry.



I wish I could get this point across to the PO I work with. He's obsessed with the old Batallions and pre-unification traditions that have fallen by the wayside, yet looks down on the new stuff that younger troops are doing now...I don't think people understand traditions can be started, and if they have meaning and significance to the current members, well that's how you build a 'storied and tradition laden' armed forces.


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## Loachman (12 Dec 2014)

Perhaps if the older traditions were properly explained and taught...

I understand and accept evolution, but do not accept invasive species that kill off native ones.


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## George Wallace (12 Dec 2014)

Loachman said:
			
		

> Perhaps if the older traditions were properly explained and taught...
> 
> I understand and accept evolution, but do not accept invasive species that kill off native ones.



That is where the CO and RSM publishing the Unit "Bibles", or whatever they may be called, that tell the unit history and its customs comes in handy for all ranks.


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## Navy_Pete (12 Dec 2014)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> And, this is it.  Traditions change and some evolve.  I have, more than once, watched a few soldiers become teary-eyed during the toast to Fallen Comrades.  For the younger generation, this _newish_ tradition *does* mean something.  For that reason, I have zero issues with it.  It is their time to serve and I am fine with the torch they wish to now carry.



I saw this at a Navy mess dinner about four years ago for the first time.  When they made a toast to 'absent friends and fallen comrades' and had the empty place setting I happened to have a few friends deployed in various trouble spots at the time, had recently lost a colleague to suicide, and had a number of friends struggling with what they had been through.  May be part of all doing the basic training together and having friends in other elements from the start of your career, but to me this was a good thing to do, as it was a suitable reminder of friends that weren't able to enjoy something simple like a dinner with peers.  With common training at various points of careers and more 'purple' deployments across elements, this may be more common then previously.  Not a big fan of the long explanation/toast, but the simple toast and the moment of silence was pretty solemn.

At the time, I didn't care if it was an 'Americanism' (and still don't); it immediately meant something personal to me and resonated with a lot of my peers in the same boat.  Traditions have to start somewhere, so taking a second to think about people that didn't make it home whole and appreciating what you have seems like a good one to start, especially when we are so fortunate to live in a safe and stable country.

Here's one more to absent friends; missing you this xmas season.


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## OldSolduer (13 Dec 2014)

Pusser said:
			
		

> Such things should not be left to these "powers" alone.  In my opinion, too many things like this (e.g. dress) have been "hijacked" by the chiefs and/or "abdicated" by the officers.  We need more input on these matters from all quarters.



I will agree, but it's the CO who has the final say. I, for one, do not need an empty table to be reminded of the sacrifices of our soldiers. There are many that agree and some that disagree.


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## Haggis (13 Dec 2014)

Traditions are born, live and die with changing societal, cultural and behavioural norms.  This one will eventually run it's course and be supplanted with something else, just like the dinner tradition of lighting the smoking lamp died off.

I'm still not completely clear on it's origins.  As long as it continues to be done tastefully, I'm OK with it.


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