# Toronto tests response to terrorist attacks



## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

> Toronto tests response to terrorist attack hitting subway, offices
> 
> Mike Oliveira
> Canadian Press
> ...




*Why wasn't the CF involved in this?*  ???


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## George Wallace (19 Sep 2005)

Why?  ??? Why does the CF have to be involved in cases like this?

Many municipalities across the country test their Emergency Response capabilities to scenarios like train derailments, school bus accidents, plane crashes, etc. without any CF involvement.  So Toronto has stepped it up a notch and done a test that involves Bio/Radioactive Hazards.  Other municipalities have also.  They are reacting to the times.  

The next thing to say, is that the CF is a "Last Resort" in situations like this.  There is a bunch of hoops and checks and balances that have to be gone through (A Chain of Command) in the matter of Aid to the Civil Power.  In this case, Toronto was testing its' own resources as 'First Responders' and saw no requirement to go to Provincial and then National resources for help.


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

There are several reasons that the CF should have been involved, I'll highlight a couple.

More exposure of the CF in instances like this would help in recruiting and public opinion.

Using us as a last resort sounds great, IF we are going to help the situation.  Unfortunately if we don't practice in cooperative events like this one we will be more of a hinderance than help.

Sadly I think the paperwork involved in including the CF is far too much of a hinderance and therefore we are left out.


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## George Wallace (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> There are several reasons that the CF should have been involved, I'll highlight a couple.
> 
> More exposure of the CF in instances like this would help in recruiting and public opinion.



The CF would not be able to move the required troops to Toronto in time to react effectively with the Toronto authorities.   The Exercise would be over before the first troops came anywhere close to being 'on the ground'.   (No!....do not even go to the Reserve argument.)


			
				GNR said:
			
		

> Using us as a last resort sounds great, IF we are going to help the situation.   Unfortunately if we don't practice in cooperative events like this one we will be more of a hindrance than help.


 Not true.  The CF does do its' own training.  It does have people who will go in and work as mediators, coordinators, etc to bridge the gaps between the Civil, Provincial, and Federal organizations.


			
				GNR said:
			
		

> Sadly I think the paperwork involved in including the CF is far too much of a hindrance and therefore we are left out.


Sorry, but that is the way the system is setup so as the Federal Government is not stepping outside its' Lanes in our Democratic Society.  All a matter of Checks and Balances.  You should know this.


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## Kirkhill (19 Sep 2005)

I don't know if the CF should have been involved in this drill, or even if is should be involved in emergency planning but one thing I took from the recent Katrina affair is that there is a fundamental problem in planning for these things.

When your house goes up in flames, when you receive a wound that requires more than a bandaid you call for help.   Help arrives and the helpers take over command and control.   You, in your traumatized, incapacitated state are not expect to help put out the fire or even direct operations.   Yet that is exactly the situation that we put local authorities in.   

We expect that local authorities, with the best local information, can make the best local decisions.   But the very nature of disasters means that the local environment has changed, often beyond recognition.   Maps may no longer be useful. Communications are likely to be inactive.   Roads, railways, runways and ports, when damaged mean that the locals can't get anywhere to find out where the problems are to fix the "biggest" problems first.   The mayor may need to dig herself out of her street before she can find her way to City Hall.   Firemen and police, if not dead or trapped at home or in their stations, may find themselves isolated with no radios, no phones, no roads for their vehicles and working water system fort the fire trucks.

To top it all off, the shock of the situation is likely to result in many people not capable of making sound decisions even if they have the "correct" facts before them.   I think a number of public officials in the Katrina case demonstrated this with their on-air presentations.   4 days of no sleep, no showers, spotty information and worrying about your family creates an immense burden to overcome when it comes to being rational,   as most of us here know.   Most civilian officials have not had personal experience of working under those conditions.

I don't know the answer but just ask the question:   At what point should "local" decision making be supplanted by "outsiders"?   At what point should it be realized that local facilities and first responders are simply incapable of managing a crisis and need someone else to come in with fresh, untraumatized, dispassionate individuals with all the ready kit and assume command and control.

Despite earth quake/flood/fire proofing buildings is it reasonable to assume that local hospitals, local fire departments, local police, local utility and construction companies are going to be in any shape at all to respond?

In Katrina's case clearly not.   If not then who and when and from where will the help come?


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## George Wallace (19 Sep 2005)

A job (initially) for the EMO, not the CF.


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## Kirkhill (19 Sep 2005)

Do we have a sound, well equipped, well trained, cohesive, EMO?


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

Sorry George, I have to bring up the reserves.

The reserves from the areas surrounding the incident should be able to help out until the regular force is mobilized.  As Kirkhill pointed out, the local authorities may not be in a state that they will be able to properly respond.  It would make sense to draw from outside help.  Reservists SHOULD be trained as first responders.


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## George Wallace (19 Sep 2005)

;D   Once upon a time, a long long time ago, in a land, not so far away, before the Liberal Government and paying down the Deficit with our GST and Gas Taxes, we had an organization that took Community Leaders, Police officials, Coast Guard, Fire Services, Medical Services, Hydro Managers, Municipal Workers, Telecommunications Experts, and such and put them through a College....We'll call it the Emergency Measures Organization's Emergency Preparedness College and trained them to set up the facilities to manage Emergency Response to emergencies that may arise in their communities.   And life was good....   ;D


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## George Wallace (19 Sep 2005)

GNR

Currently it is not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders.   They are having enough problems just being Reservists and conducting their training as members of the 'Armed' Forces.   Now, that being said, how many of your Reservists could have been realistically 'Recalled' in a timely fashion in which to assist in this Exercise?


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

1st, they are not MY reservists.  Although I would LOVE to have my own personal Army.  ;D

2ndly, I know it is currently not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders, thus my saying "SHOULD be trained as first responders".

3rdly, just where would they be getting "Recalled" from?  It was an exercise, reservists do exercises all the time.  And if it came down to the real thing the reserves seemed to respond fairly quickly to disastors in the last few years.  (For example: Operation Ice Storm and the Manitoba Floods)


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## MPIKE (19 Sep 2005)

> Why wasn't the CF involved in this?



Simply, it was a test for First Responders.  To be a first responder you must be in the immediate vicinity/on duty at the time.


> ...came down to the real thing the reserves seemed to respond fairly quickly to disastors in the last few years...


This scenario is NOT an act of nature as we had the luxury of a weather forecast to get ready for.

Sorry guys, I going to side with GW, the reserves and the system would not allow for "your" argued response to a 9/11 type attack. (time to pinch yourselves)


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## Kirkhill (19 Sep 2005)

I agree with GW on the Reserves as well.   However my objection has nothing to do with Raison D'Etre or even training or capability.   If the police and the fire service can't get out of their homes with the roads clogged why would the Reserves be any better placed?   The best course of action for trained personnel under these circumstances is likely to be to start organizing the physically fit in their immediate vicinity to start helping those that they can.   Forget about trying to report to a duty station if your neighbourhood is devastated.   

I also agree with PIKER.   Many, and on the West Coast perhaps the most likely, scenarios all start with no warning.   An earthquake at 2 O'Clock   on a Sunday morning, with everybody soundly asleep in their beds would be very hard to dig out of.

When local services are overwhelmed then neighbouring services come to assist.   This can work well if a small community is surrounded by a number of other communities or if a there is a larger community near by.

What happens if, as in the case of New Orleans the entire regional structure is incapacitated?   If Vancouver, Victoria and Seattle, along with all the smaller island and coastal communities are all inundated who will conduct operations then?   Its harder to imagine a similar catastrophe hitting Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, Montreal or Halifax - no man-made event, even a nuclear bomb and certainly not a Biological attack - is likely to be as all encompassing or to be as fast developing as an event on the West Coast.   Having said that lack of imagination may be the ultimate reason behind New Orleans problems -   although some people did imagine this possibility, and worse, many others did not.   

It would be costly to build the necessary organization to handle such an eventuality - money that would likely compete with the CF budget.   Alternatives might be to down size Vancouver so that fewer people and dollars are at risk and/or upsize someplace like the Okanagan so as to supply a complementary base of services so that in the event one site is incapacitated the other site can go to its aid.   Or perhaps Vancouver, Calgary and Edmonton should be planning on the basis that any two cities maintain services to bring rescue and relief to the third?

And maintaining a single Heavy Urban Search and Rescue organization of 100 to 200 bodies in each city isn't going to get the job done.  As demonstrated in New Orleans and even in New York with its much smaller event it requires tens of thousands of organized personnel.


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

I would never suggest that the CF be the ONLY responders.  The police, firefighters and EMS teams are definately more geared to this type of a task. (I used natural disastors examples because that is the closest example of reservists from outside of a troubled area responding quickly)

I stand firm in my belief that the CF should be one of the first responders to a terrorist situation on our soil.  

I think that the police, firefighters and EMS teams would appreciate any kind of organized help they can receive.  If we trained to respond, we would be an asset....even if we were only used as a last resort or to fill out teams.  I know we have skills and equipment that would appreciated.

If we fail to prepare ourselves for the task and we are called on (especially as a last resort) we will fail.


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## x-grunt (19 Sep 2005)

Interesting thread. I am one of those who think involving the CF in this test was unnecessary. It would be good for the CF to be involved in analyzing the AAR, but that's it.

First, this was a test of a terror attack scenario. Terror attacks, even big ones, tend to be of limited scale. Many of the posts here are referring to large scale natural disasters  screwing up an entire region. In a terror attack some infrastucture may be damaged/destroyed but for the most part responders will be able to react. Outside resources are only needed if the first response providers can't cope. So this test is looking at just that - how well do they cope?

Second, first responders are those who can react locally in _minutes_ to a situation. NO CF organization is capable of this around Toronto. Should the CF be involved in these situations? Sure, but as a follow up resource or extra manpower as needed. It takes time to get a reserve unit called out, or a reg unit deployed.

I do think it should be easier to get the reserves into the fray when their community is in need, but that's a different issue.


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## Old Ranger (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> I would never suggest that the CF be the ONLY responders.   The police, firefighters and EMS teams are definately more geared to this type of a task. (I used natural disastors examples because that is the closest example of reservists from outside of a troubled area responding quickly)
> 
> I stand firm in my belief that the CF should be one of the first responders to a terrorist situation on our soil.
> 
> ...



So there should be JTF units everywhere!!! :cam:


Being in the system as a Paramedic; Civilian "Forces" need the practise working together and listening/following orders.
 In the Military there is a chain of command that is clear.
 In Civi land all the different "Bosses" want to be in charge.
 Fire always thinks it should be them regardless of the specific emergency at hand. :brickwall:
We do rely on the Military for support (Tornado in Barrie 1985ish)
But that was after the initial responce, and the help was for after the initial crisis.


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

JTF units everywhere? Uh huh, that's a bit extreme....

And I understand the chain of command, but thanks for the lesson, it's more for the other groups involved.  For us to get to know how they work and for them to know us.

So let me get this straight,  no one else feels they need to protect the soil we live on??
The rest of you feel if we have a terrorist attack we are to rely on the civy services to mop up the situation and protect our citizens?

It's no wonder I have seen posting questioning if we need a military.


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## Old Ranger (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> JTF units everywhere? Uh huh, that's a bit extreme....
> 
> And I understand the chain of command, but thanks for the lesson, it's more for the other groups involved.   For us to get to know how they work and for them to know us.
> 
> ...



That's Right, the Military protects the Country.

Extreme or the ability for the Military to respond to a terrorist threat (in a timely fashion like the Civi counter parts) on our soil?


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

You've lost me OldRanger...maybe I need more coffee or you need less.....but what are you talking about?

The JTF aren't the ONLY members of the CF that respond to terrorist.
And are the people who live in Canada part of the country?


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## x-grunt (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> So let me get this straight,  no one else feels they need to protect the soil we live on??
> The rest of you feel if we have a terrorist attack we are to rely on the civy services to mop up the situation and protect our citizens?



Your attitude is showing. You say "civy services" like they are amateurs. Some of those "civy services" are experienced, hardened pro's at dealing with domestic emergencies. In some situations they probably are far more experienced then the military. Get off your high horse, the millitary is NOT the only organization defending the country.

In case of a terrorist attack, I am sure the CF will be involved - but not in the first few minutes or even hours. That's for the local emergency services to deal with.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Sep 2005)

GNR<
Methinks you need to read whatever they call "aid to the civil power" nowadays.


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

GNR

Lose the attitude and play nice. The people you're speaking to are not untrained privates or civvie wannabees. They're soldiers who have BTDT.

Keep that in mind please.

Slim


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

Sorry, didn't realise it sounded like I was giving attitude, I was shocked at the response I was getting and figured maybe I misunderstanding, so I was attempting to clarify.  I made the joke about coffee to try to lighten the situation a bit.  Obviously I am not a comedian.

I meant no disrespect to the civy services, they have a job and do it extremely well, but terrorism is a war like scenario, something WE do well.

I posted the same question I asked to the civilians in the office

"If there was a terrorist attack on Canadian soil would you expect the CF to respond or leave it in the hands of the police, firefighters and EMS?"
They ALL responded the same way.
"YES!"

I guess that is why I find it even more shocking that members of the CF feel that they don't need to be there.  The civy streets expects you to be there.


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

GNR

Believe it or not the emergency services on civvy street have all of the gear required to deal with an incident of this nature. Furthermore it is able to deploy faster that the CF's parralel services.

As for the legal side...Terrorists are not soldiers. They are criminal in the eyes of the law and should be dealt with as such.


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

I have seen most of the kit and training that the civy services have, and I am not saying we should replace them.
I simply feel that we should be part of the anti-terrorism effort here in Canada.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Sep 2005)

Speculation, but I would have to say we are, but not at any amount you and I [or Joe Public] will ever know about untill it happens....


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## George Wallace (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> "If there was a terrorist attack on Canadian soil would you expect the CF to respond or leave it in the hands of the police, firefighters and EMS?"
> They ALL responded the same way.
> "YES!"
> 
> I guess that is why I find it even more shocking that members of the CF feel that they don't need to be there.   The civy streets expects you to be there.



Just to add....Members of the CF, personally would like to be there to do as you say, but due to the series of "Checks and Balances" placed on us legislatively we can not.   If we were a Third World Nation, we may be prone to a Military Coupe.   These Checks and Balances placed on us, even if we may be a Third World Armed Forces,   ;D by our government require us to go through all the 'Hoops' before moving.   

As stated by you, your question to your civie friends and their response, shows their lack of knowledge about our military.   Not their fault completely, but of Canadian Society as a whole.   Our Public have no idea of what an Armed Force is for.   Print out what Gen Hillier said and really shock them....We are not Public Civil Servants....We are an Army....We don't train for PeaceKeeping....We train to kill.


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> I have seen most of the kit and training that the civy services have, and I am not saying we should replace them.
> I simply feel that we should be part of the anti-terrorism effort here in Canada.



Granted, but the first response must ALWAYS be the civilian police.


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## George Wallace (19 Sep 2005)

Bruce Monkhouse said:
			
		

> Speculation, but I would have to say we are, but not at any amount you and I [or Joe Public] will ever know about untill it happens....



Actually....if we do our jobs right....no one in the public will know.


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

George, your right the Civy world really has no idea what and who we are....yes we train to kill, and that includes terrorists on our soil.

And absolutely Slim, the first response must always be the civilian police, firefighters and EMS.  Any effort by the CF would be to augment them.


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> And absolutely Slim, the first response must always be the civilian police, firefighters and EMS.   Any effort by the CF would be to augment them.



That is very doable and very possible..Rememeber the FLQ crisis? and OKA...If things get bad enough then in we go.


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## Michael OLeary (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> And absolutely Slim, the first response must always be the civilian police, firefighters and EMS.  Any effort by the CF would be to augment them.



Which bring us back to the CF role as defined by the National Counter-Terrorism Plan, although, admittedly, it's been a few years since I needed to have a copy on my desk.

Despite what your co-workers might think when imagining violence as a principal component of "terrorist activities", there are other actions defined as such that would have no clear role for CF involvement in countering:

http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/eng/operat/ct_e.html



> Most terrorist activities in Canada are in support of actions elsewhere linked to homeland conflicts. These activities include providing a convenient base for terrorist supporters and may involve using the refugee stream to enter Canada, or immigrant smuggling. In recent years, terrorists from different international terrorist organizations have come to Canada posing as refugees. Other activities include:
> 
> * fund-raising;
> * lobbying through front organizations;
> ...


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

fund-raising;
    * lobbying through front organizations;
    * providing support for terrorist operations in Canada or abroad;
    * procuring weapons and materiel;
    * coercing and manipulating immigrant communities;
    * facilitating transit to and from the United States and other countries; and
    * other illegal activities.

Good point Mike

All of whcih are supposed to be dealt with my provincial, municiple and federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies (yes we have them and CSIS is just one of the several available)


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## paracowboy (19 Sep 2005)

it's pretty straight-forward: we weren't called because it's not our role.

I'm sure that the appropriate National agencies (including the CF) were CAX-ing or TEWT-ing it up all over the place, not to mention AAR-ing their pants off (at least I hope so. If we weren't in there, at some level, it's gonna be tricky to co-ord ourselves into a real scenario.), but we weren't playing, because it ain't our sand-box.


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

Now we are getting somewhere.....I realise it isn't our sandbox, but we are expected to participate if things go BAD, wouldn't it have been good for recruiting and public image to have been part of the recent test in TO?

Most training is near worst case scenario, if we are the last effort it would have been good to show it.


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## Michael OLeary (19 Sep 2005)

paracowboy said:
			
		

> I'm sure that the appropriate National agencies (including the CF) were CAX-ing or TEWT-ing it up all over the place, not to mention AAR-ing their pants off (at least I hope so. If we weren't in there, at some level, it's gonna be tricky to co-ord ourselves into a real scenario.), but we weren't playing, because it ain't our sand-box.



They do, and we are in there.


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> Now we are getting somewhere.....I realise it isn't our sandbox, but we are expected to participate if things go BAD, wouldn't it have been good for recruiting and public image to have been part of the recent test in TO?
> 
> Most training is near worst case scenario, if we are the last effort it would have been good to show it.


Sure...would've been lovely...But rememebr that there is only so much media to go around...And all those other agencies get budget help though stuff like this. The CF is not required at that level.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Sep 2005)

Quote,
_Most training is near worst case scenario, if we are the last effort it would have been good to show it_

Why?...so EVERYONE could see it?
You really didn't pay attention to George's rebuttal to my post did you?    Go back and read it....


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## paracowboy (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> Now we are getting somewhere.....I realise it isn't our sandbox, but we are expected to participate if things go BAD, wouldn't it have been good for recruiting and public image to have been part of the recent test in TO?


 in a situation like this, the Recruiting problems of the CF are nowhere near the top of the list for the other agencies. I doubt that the municipal high muck-a-mucks give a rat's hiney about our image. They have other concerns, and our budget isn't one of them.

They're running a prudent test to potentially save lives. We don't even begin to factor.





			
				Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> They do, and we are in there.


 good to hear. Then, our participation is covered.


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

Can I go home now?


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## MPIKE (19 Sep 2005)

> So let me get this straight,  no one else feels they need to protect the soil we live on??
> The rest of you feel if we have a terrorist attack we are to rely on the civy services to mop up the situation and protect our citizens?


GNR,
I think that your original question into why the CF has been answered by the many posts.  Just so we are straight, the  posters did not even come close to making a statement that they don't care.  It has been stated that this was first intial response test of local procedures. period.  As for the CF's role then it would be follow-up action on the State or network that was responsible for the local attack or compliment the local agencies once the resources had become strapped.   


> , but we are expected to participate if things go BAD, wouldn't it have been good for recruiting and public image to have been part of the recent test in TO?


It would be better if we dealt with doing a better job of informing the public on our actions abroad so they fully understand why we are there.


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

Lets face it...When the army comes out to play on home turf, things are way beyond really bad!

That's not something I ever want to see again or participate in!

Thinking that we may have had to shoot other Canadian citizens is not what its all about.

Slim


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

Bruce, in a training situation we want to be be seen...it gives those on the civy street a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Sorry Slim, I didn't realise this would go on SO long.  We are in a democracy so I have to conceed to the majority even if I don't agree of what the CF posn should be in this case.

Thanks for the debate.  I know it's not what we train for, and I know we are only a last ditch effort.  But keep in mind, if we don't train with the rest of responders we will fail them when they need us the most.

Being in the public eye is just a perk to the type of training specified.


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> .   But keep in mind, if we don't train with the rest of responders we will fail them when they need us the most.
> 
> Being in the public eye is just a perk to the type of training specified.



The worst thing that happened during OKA was that someone lit an immersion heater and gave it too much gas. So it made a boom (as usual) there were several RCMP officers who were there who thought that the nindians had started shooting.

As we no longer use the immersion heater in the field I can safely assume that this training requirement has been overcome by circumstances. ;D

Just kidding...The CF is not required for domestic terrorism except in the most extreme measures..Can we stop talking about this now please?!


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## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Sep 2005)

Quote,
_Bruce, in a training situation we want to be be seen...it gives those on the civy street a warm and fuzzy feeling._

WHAT???   WHO CARES???We are not talking about loading sandbags or something here, training is not for show, training is for go.
Next time I do tactical training to quell a riot maybe I should just bring the inmates in to watch,....so they can get a "warm fuzzy feeling."
[ and they probably would knowing exactly what we are planning to do next]

Sorry Slim, had this typed out already and with my slow fat fingers didn't want to erase it :crybaby:


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

Bruce, your missing the point, the training is so that we don't fail, the viewing by the public is just a perk to help with public image and recruiting.

Sorry Slim, I am done.


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## paracowboy (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> Thanks for the debate.   I know it's not what we train for, and I know we are only a last ditch effort.   But keep in mind, if we don't train with the rest of responders we will fail them when they need us the most.


it's been established that we were there. The people who run the admin/organizing were tested. Us grunts just gotta show up and follow orders.




> Being in the public eye is just a perk to the type of training specified


 not in this case, I think. Remember, we are only deployed in Canada when the poop is well and fully splattered all over the oscillating whatcha-hoosis (or when the beautiful people in Toronto might get their shoes wet from shovelling their own darn sidewalks   : ). In cases of Emergency, troops in the street, in full fightin' an' dyin' gear, are a negative. We add to the scariness. To civvies, troops in ordinary combats handing out aid is comforting. Troops in Fighting Order are scary. 

edited because, apparently I can't spell the word "get"


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

I was unaware that we were part of the effort, the article I found didn't say that.
And you're right, we don't need to put troops on the city streets, just be part of the effort.

If the article would have said that I wouldn't have even started this debate.

Thanks for the clarification Paracowboy!

(I know, I said I was done Slim, maybe you should just lock it?   )


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

The CF being part of the command element is still participating, being part of the first response....monitoring that command element would help us to establish just how we could fit into it.


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## Slim (19 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> The CF being part of the command element is still participating, being part of the first response....monitoring that command element would help us to establish just how we could fit into it.



GNR

This has been done to death

You've had your answer several times now.

Lets all find something else to talk about regarding this issue or I forsee a loc on the horizon.


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## GNR (19 Sep 2005)

I'm good to go Slim, thanks for the patience.


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## Fishbone Jones (19 Sep 2005)

I trained with the TO EMS CBRN response team a few years ago, when they were trying to figure their role and what was required. They've made massive strides since. They are capable and competent. Short of a massive breakdown in the social order, they can take care of the situation, without us. 

We have military pers, in the guise of CIMIC and LOs that are available and in contact with their civil counterparts. The give the heads up to the Commander that the civies MAY need our help and what kind, so we can be ready SHOULD they ask.

If your house catches fire, the municipality takes care of it, if you can't. If it spreads to the block and surrounding area, it may take nearby municipalities and counties to help. If it spreads to the point the above can't handle it, it becomes the province's responsibility. When half the province is on fire, the feds will step in with all the resources available, lastly, and to include the military. That's the C of C, and we can't break it without the say so of the fed gov't.

Most times, unless it's catastrophic and beyond the logistics of the civies, we just get in the way.


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> 1st, they are not MY reservists.  Although I would LOVE to have my own personal Army.  ;D
> 
> 2ndly, I know it is currently not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders, thus my saying "SHOULD be trained as first responders".
> 
> 3rdly, just where would they be getting "Recalled" from?  It was an exercise, reservists do exercises all the time.  And if it came down to the real thing the reserves seemed to respond fairly quickly to disastors in the last few years.  (For example: Operation Ice Storm and the Manitoba Floods)



I think my Regiment is a little too busy training to close with and destroy the enemy to learn how to shovel sidewalks, pile corpses, or hand out blankets in Toronto...


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Sep 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> I think my Regiment is a little too busy training to close with and destroy the enemy to learn how to shovel sidewalks, pile corpses, or hand out blankets in Toronto...



Substitute, or paraphrase:

*I think my Regiment is a little too busy training to close with and destroy the enemy to learn how to shovel sidewalks* (of snow, shit, mud, body parts) *pile corpses, or hand out blankets * *in Toronto*(Kabul, Khandahar, Bosnia, Haiti, Seirra Leone.....)

A pretty pompous, and out of touch statement, if you ask me.


So your Regiment is to busy to learn to do what the rest of the Forces does when overseas?


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## Britney Spears (20 Sep 2005)

Well, one would suppose that shovelling sidewalks is not as chalenging a task as closing with and destroying and whatnot, and so would require less training.


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## Fishbone Jones (20 Sep 2005)

Without stateting the obvious, I was trying to explain that "the forte of the infantry" is not the sole task of the military while on deployment, and to train strictly to that end is a fool's game, but possibly worthwhile for those that will never deploy.


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## childs56 (20 Sep 2005)

If the civie agency has the abilities to work with in a mass NBC, explosion or other disaster threat then my hat is off to them, the reality is they are not fully prepared to. One thing i find with most of these exercises in disaster response is that they are staged, almost to an exact script. Every one knows what is going to happen, how it is going to happen and what the end result will be. Almost as if on que things happen. We all know that when a big situation comes up, it is not always on que or follow any of our previous planning. 

One thing i hate the most is the false sense of security that we have and we portray to our people in how great our preparedness is or was. Our local authorities and the CF have done very little to foster the team work and the realities of a joint preparedness group. Yes the higher ups in the organizations have the best laid plans that all work when they do a script. Almost like acting. Yet we know that if you put troops on the ground to do more then just shovel side walks and cut trees and distribute food. (meaning securing sites with weapons and Armoured vehicles) their will be much more of a planning stage needed. (protesters, some of whom may be your friends and such)

This stage starts with an overall concept of operations, then moves onto a a more detailed concept for individual situations, (IE nuclear, chem, ice storms, earth quakes, fires, floods etc). The fact that a foot on the ground is always refereed to as the best method to train and prepare for a situation. (The saying TRAIN FOR WAR IN PEACE TIME is most befitting, even for these lesser of disasters). 

Some will disagree, and say that we do not have to put feet on the ground as soldiers to be able to respond to a disaster. I can tell you it sure helps out though, things such as familiarity with the area, the people and the obstacles that are their helps. These skills go on a larger  scale then just that single area or training aspect. The skills learnt and developed can be used any where else you want, and or may deploy in the future. 

The aspect of a small attack in the sub way of TO, and then a bomb attack just mere blocks away is great to get feet wet and people to flush out skills. How many people were involved, what level were they notified prior to that this was an exercises, many more questions.

We need to look beyond our old relic days of one thought training and look into the larger scale of things and be prepared for them. Things such as being able to transport food, water and emergency personal to all points in Canada in time of need, with out the use of air ports, road ways or mountain passes. Have a stock pile of usable food and fuel. 

I have to get going back to work.


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## Slim (20 Sep 2005)

Allott of people ( I find anyway) seem to think that these excesizes, which are scripted, are a bad thing! 

Ever do martial arts? What do we do in martial arts...we do drills so that we know the proper steps and how things are supposed to work out, even if its only to know when something is going wrong.

Having a free-for-all with our emergency services does not accomplish anythng!

Having a drill tha teaches people how a specific event should play out is far more beneficial.


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## Old Ranger (20 Sep 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> One thing i find with most of these exercises in disaster response is that they are staged, almost to an exact script. Every one knows what is going to happen, how it is going to happen and what the end result will be. Almost as if on que things happen. We all know that when a big situation comes up, it is not always on que or follow any of our previous planning.



Lost my original reply,

2nd attempt.

The Exercises are for all the Allied Agencies to learn to work together in a safe environment and to find out what capabilities each have to offer.

During Basic, How much "pepper potting" do you do?
Do you use blanks, t-flashes and arty sims?...safe learning environment.

At least there is an effort to improve.

I like the rest of your post but I cannot answer your specific questions about that scenario.
I'll try to get a copy of the after action reports and let you know.


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## childs56 (20 Sep 2005)

How many times have you been on an exercises to do the same (almost) exact training. It gets boring, people get complacent and things get missed. The troops get bored as do the officers.   

Think of this. You are on your typical ex, where the Guns are firing, tanks are crashing around, Infantry every where, fuel trucks are resupplying, Fast air is moving in dropping bombs, the Helo's are in bound to pick you up, a mere few hours earlier you did a beach assault from landing craft that left the destroyer group pacific. 

You are now at the peak of the battle, all of a sudden your main comms shuts down, you no longer have comms with any one out side of Platoon let alone Company. Running low on ammo and water.   Now fast track a few hours ahead. You finally find out what happened, turns out the HQ element has been captured and or incapacitated, your Regimental comms has been devastated, your codes no longer work the enemy has jammed all out going and in comming radio messages. Your forces have now become less effective as a force. 

Sound like a far fetched scenario, well yes it is. Do we ever try to work at that level. No. We train at the lower levels for reasons, Money being the biggest factor. Our actual perceived competence level. Their is nothing wrong with doing the basics of training and reinforcing them time and time again. But at some point we must move onto a level of training where we can branch out and work at things we normally do not practice. 

Other Military's train like this. They put together a general concept of Operations for a given scenario, (usually a realistic one they have encountered with in the last few years) they practice this till they have the basics down. They also throw wrenches into the system so that they can properly evaluate the team. Ie take out the C&C, or down A/C, maybe even deny resupply of fuel so vehicles are not available. To know ahead of schedule what where, when and how you are training is good to a very rudimentary point. I mean such things as your drills for actions on and your RV's, how to re suppply, mines encounters etc are all very important to a soldier for basic skills. 

The need to improve onto those skills at a higher level be it Military or civie is just as important. At a higher level i mean for the individual them selves to attain that higher level. It just isn't good enough for us to practice a basic drill   time and time again, we must progress beyond that basic ability and strive for a much higher one. Especially if lives of Canadians is at risk. 

Why did TO conduct this subway/building training ex. Due to the public wanting to see some action taken by the government to prove they were prepared after the Bombings in London and the confirmation that Canada was also on the HIT list for the terrorist's.   Typical of a group under pressure they put together an exercises that I have no doubt went off with out any major hitches.( i in no way mean to insult the responders on the ground or question their abilities). That is because they wanted it to.   

Your analogy of martial arts is a good one. But if you only ever train at the lower level of martial arts then you will never attain a higher level of ability and you will always be at the lower level of the spectrum.    I agree though that you need the basics and should always have time set aside to practice the basics. But your plan should never be the basics. That gives false sense of a persons ability to not only them but to others that may rely on them.   

I am not sure if you interpreted what i originally said as being a Free for all,   I in no way meant to convey that. The bottom line is you must always have a mission with a goal (the goal should not be so easy as to relay a false sense of security for those around). I do think that the government under pressure from the public and also other groups with in The Department Of Defense (not only the CF)and possibly other out side agencies put together a plan and did a show of comfort more so then an actual show of ability.   I guess only time will tell if they carry out more of these exercises and at a larger scale and intensity with all of the special operations groups that may be involved.   

I hope that i didn't step on any ones toes, or get any one to riled up. Also hope that i haven't said anything that may get me in trouble at work. 

Cheers guys and girls


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## George Wallace (20 Sep 2005)

How high did you just blow your hat?     A full page of hot air pontificating in circles and coming to no logical conclusion.   It has been pointed out to you that Drills are done in Training to get personnel to work as a team and efficiently.   Your ramblings about training for higher causes are crap.   We train for every likely scenario we can imagine.   The Public doesn't dictate what we do in our training, we do.   Just because you have some other wild idea of what we should train for, doesn't mean that the training we are doing is meaningless.   You are not the CDS.   You have no idea of what your immediate Commander has in his Training Plan.   Obviously you have no clue of what we train for, how we train for it, and why we train that way.   Can you honestly tell us that you are a member of an elite team, whose members have remained the same since you all joined, with no changes, and that you can retain everything you have been taught in the past?   I doubt it.   That is why we have "Drills" and why we must continually start at "Square One" over and over again (Especially in the Reserves or with Non Combat Arms).   Oh Well!   The main questions of this Thread were answered on the first page.  On that note:  http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html


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## paracowboy (20 Sep 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> How many times have you been ...a plan and did a show of comfort more so then an actual show of ability.   I guess only time will tell if they carry out more of these exercises and at a larger scale and intensity with all of the special operations groups that may be involved.


 good point, BUUUUT you gotta start somewhere, right? Walk before you run, all that jazz.


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## Michael Dorosh (20 Sep 2005)

recceguy said:
			
		

> Without stateting the obvious, I was trying to explain that "the forte of the infantry" is not the sole task of the military while on deployment, and to train strictly to that end is a fool's game, but possibly worthwhile for those that will never deploy.



Wow.  If you really need training in shovelling snow, I'd recommend not transferring out our way anytime soon, you're bound to be disappointed.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (20 Sep 2005)

Quote from CTD,
_You are now at the peak of the battle, all of a sudden your main comms shuts down, you no longer have comms with any one out side of Platoon let alone Company. Running low on ammo and water.  Now fast track a few hours ahead. You finally find out what happened, turns out the HQ element has been captured and or incapacitated, your Regimental comms has been devastated, your codes no longer work the enemy has jammed all out going and in comming radio messages. Your forces have now become less effective as a force. 

Sound like a far fetched scenario, well yes it is. Do we ever try to work at that level. No. We train at the lower levels for reasons, Money being the biggest factor. Our actual perceived competence level. Their is nothing wrong with doing the basics of training and reinforcing them time and time again. But at some point we must move onto a level of training where we can branch out and work at things we normally do not practice_

Hmmm, I'll wager you were not in a 2 RCHA  Command Post between the years 78-86...........


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## childs56 (21 Sep 2005)

Intersting point about not knowing what is at the commanders intent. Usually at the beginning of the fiscal year units carry out a brief as to the new year of training, this will include what the Commanders intent for the next 12 or so months is. This usually encompasses BTS,  for some Units and Brigades Work up training for a Roto over seas even takings for training for the summer and Regimental schools. Maybe for duty with the IRF,(what ever they call it now) 

I never once said that I was a member of an elite team (special operations group) meaning all the agency's with in the disaster response team. Be it Civie or Military. They may include special dogs sniffing teams, chemical defense teams, special divers, recovery crews trained in urban search and rescue, heavy search and rescue, Special fire fighting, the list goes on and they are all special operations with in their own agency's. I am not how ever a special operations person my self.  Nor have i ever claimed to be. If i gave that impression then i am sorry for that 

I can see though that we are not trained to respond to these situations. The response to BC for preparedness in case of an earth quake? the forest fire response how ever over whelming it was, it showed a lack of efficiency with in our level of preparedness to respond to a disaster with in our own borders. We can not respond to a disaster the same as we do a war. We need to stream line and be able to work with in the local authorities their expectations. This includes knowing what capabilities they have and how we can work with them to enhance them and ours. They also need to know what we can actually bring to the table not and our capabilities.  If you cant see that then maybe you should only train to kill people.

It is funny and also discouraging to hear such comments,  "training for higher causes are crap" made by a member. If we only ever trained in the basic drills then how do we ever prepare for other such emergencies or situations that may arise? Seems very few units use to train for land mines and convoy duties. I think they spend some more time doing that now. How about ROE training. That is all higher training I think. 

I am not disputing the need for training at the basic level, but we also need training at the higher level for the troops. They are the ones whom are going to have to crawl under buildings in bulky gear to help people, they are the ones to do mass decontamination of persons, they are the ones whom shall be patrolling the streets of their towns and city's,  Better to train together with these agency's before it happens then wait for it to happen and just go with the flow and make it work. 

The response to the subway exercises by the Government is the same as the one done in BC for an earth quake, only done to appease the public. This after threats, and disaster else where happened. It only lasts for a short time and then the Government wipes it brow and carry on to more intresting things.  

You say the public has not dictated how we train, Well tell that to the people through out the past few years in the training system whom have seen a decline in training due to publics reluctance to spend more money on the CF, To buy new helos until it was in the public intrest (ie voting power) to get them. How about the levels of training with in the schools where they have cut out portions such as live fires and that. All to save money so we can appease the public and say that we have tightend our budget. That is how the public controls our level of training. It has suffered and the Chain of Command has stated that for the past few years, they are now trying to get the money and resources in place to get back up to where we should be.

My point for all this is that the civil agency's and the Department of Defense should all work together at the lowest level of planning and work their way up. That way if they ever have to respond to any type of attack or large disaster they have the basic skills of each other to work with.  We need to practice the basics, this includes all agency's involve regardless... 

You know what Bruce I was waiting for some one to mention a hint to the past where i have no doubt you and others had the experience to go through some very good training. But not many of the older crowd around. I chuckle over your comment.


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## Fishbone Jones (21 Sep 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> *How many times have you been on an exercises* to do the same (almost) exact training. It gets boring, people get complacent and things get missed. The troops get bored as do the officers.
> 
> I'll let you answer the bold part of your above question first.
> 
> ...



Trust me. The CF is no more prepared to handle a bomb in the subway than the civies are, probably less so. There are protocols for the CF to follow when it comes to Aid of the Civil Power. It's been updated constantly and revamped regularly, with consultation by experts on both sides. I'm sure they appreciate your input


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## George Wallace (21 Sep 2005)

So CTD, you want us to be all seeing, all dancing Bears?  You want all the members of the CF to be fully trained as Fire Fighters, Paramedics, Police, SAR Techs; not as soldiers, sailors or airmen, so that they can react to any emergency that may befall Canada.  A Forest Fire in BC or Quebec, an earthquake, or a flood.  What if these things never happen within your life-time?  What if we should instead go to War?

We have Police, Fire, Ambulance and Rescue Services in the Civilian world for those things.  We, as Gen Hillier said, are not the Public Civil Service; we are the Canadian Forces.....We train to kill.  Handing out Teddy Bears and filling sandbags during a flood are tasks we can fill on the side, but our primary job is to kill when called upon.



			
				CTD said:
			
		

> I can see though that we are not trained to respond to these situations. The response to BC for preparedness in case of an earth quake? the forest fire response how ever over whelming it was, it showed a lack of efficiency with in our level of preparedness to respond to a disaster with in our own borders. We can not respond to a disaster the same as we do a war. We need to stream line and be able to work with in the local authorities their expectations. This includes knowing what capabilities they have and how we can work with them to enhance them and ours. They also need to know what we can actually bring to the table not and our capabilities.  If you cant see that then maybe you should only train to kill people.


You are really out of touch with:


			
				CTD said:
			
		

> It is funny and also discouraging to hear such comments,  "training for higher causes are crap" made by a member. If we only ever trained in the basic drills then how do we ever prepare for other such emergencies or situations that may arise? Seems very few units use to train for land mines and convoy duties. I think they spend some more time doing that now. How about ROE training. That is all higher training I think.


I can asure you that most units do Mine Awarness training.  They do cover the ROEs for their taskings. 



			
				CTD said:
			
		

> I am not disputing the need for training at the basic level, but we also need training at the higher level for the troops. They are the ones whom are going to have to crawl under buildings in bulky gear to help people, they are the ones to do mass decontamination of persons, they are the ones whom shall be patrolling the streets of their towns and city's,  Better to train together with these agency's before it happens then wait for it to happen and just go with the flow and make it work.
> 
> The response to the subway exercises by the Government is the same as the one done in BC for an earth quake, only done to appease the public. This after threats, and disaster else where happened. It only lasts for a short time and then the Government wipes it brow and carry on to more intresting things.


 Again, that is the job of the Civilian 'Specialists', not the military.  Only after the Civilian authorities have run out of resourses will the military come in, but remember the military is equiped for War.  

I find you are using faulty logic with these statements:  



			
				CTD said:
			
		

> You say the public has not dictated how we train, Well tell that to the people through out the past few years in the training system whom have seen a decline in training due to publics reluctance to spend more money on the CF, To buy new helos until it was in the public intrest (ie voting power) to get them. How about the levels of training with in the schools where they have cut out portions such as live fires and that. All to save money so we can appease the public and say that we have tightend our budget. That is how the public controls our level of training. It has suffered and the Chain of Command has stated that for the past few years, they are now trying to get the money and resources in place to get back up to where we should be.


In that the Gov't has made serious cutbacks to the budget is a fact.  To say that the public dictates how we carry on our individual training is wrong.  We do the best we can with what we have.  Cutbacks to training has happened, but we still decide how we will train, not John Q. Public.


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## FormerHorseGuard (21 Sep 2005)

i think some of the reasons the City  of Toronto , the Metro Police, Fire, Ambullance, TTC and other civilian groups put on this display  was to see if they  learned anything since becoming a one city  service and wanted to see how they  worked together.

History  lesson here.

not too long ago there was not just one city  in Metro Toronto,  there was North York, Scarborough, Ebitcoke, East York, York, Toronto and I might have left one or two out, not trying to leave anything out. Metro Toronto funded the ambulance services, the Police services,9-1-1,  and the TTC, they  were the only  city  wide services that  crossed the city  limits and could freely  roam from one city  to another.  Fire Services and  Rescue was covered by each city  on its own budget.

There was a major subway accident in the early 90's. Lessons learned there, one the police, fire, ambulance services , TTC , and other rescue services could not talk to one another as their equipment was not the same. They  found out Police, Fire and Ambulance services could not talk to one another or with the TTC under gound as the comms system did not work in the tunnels . Made rescue efforts and other tasks very  difficult and in effective in some offical minds.

Fast forward a few years and the Mega City  of Toronto came into being, creating its own problems, Police and ambulance was already  under the roof of Metro Toronto, they  were just folded into Mega Toronto , but the fire services had to be studied and they had to figure out what  comms system of all the ones already in use was to be used. they had to make it work with the rest of the city. they  corrected some major problems, then they had redisbrute equipment and man power across the city, some fire halls closed  ( in some cases there were 2 in a 8 block area , old city  lines ) unified training system had toocme into play, roles had to be filled and moved.

Fast Forward to the exercise

It was the city if Toronto who wanted to see how their services and man power would respond to a major terror attrack, if your going to train, might as train and test for the worst case possible.  Before a city  can ask for help from another level of government they have to see what  they  have  and what  they have not. cannot request help till youknow your limits. 

Should the military  be involved in something like that, no , the likely hood of some military  people being involved at a distance is good.  Some where along the line I am sure they were some higher pay grade making a few calls for research to ask if this happened what  could you provide in 12 hours, 24 hours, 36 hours and 48 hours and in 72 hours. I am sure that  is covered somewhere on the training plan and in the diasater plan.  ( for instances  during the subway  crash they  borrowed field phones from some one so they  could have comms from the accident site to the ops area who lent them i do not know or really care) 

It was the city  of Toronto money  being spent on that  training EX, not DND or Ottawa money  so the military  should stay  out till requested.  Before they  can request AIDE TO CIVIL POWER , they have to know the limits of their men, equipment and find out what  they can handle. Sometimes the military  is not the right group to ask for help because the special equipment and people trained to run it is not in the  military.

RES Persons from Toronto area units. Great group of soldiers i am sure, they  can do what  they are trained for.  You have to look at the area in which the units are located and where the troops live and the commute time to the unit HQ before they  could be sent out to help. Not like there is platoon or company  level unit on 24 standby at the various training sites within the city. if a major event  happened in Toronto, most of the res forces would be cut off from the downtown units because of traffic,  distance and the fact the city  might be closed down. Not much help there. 

Reg Force
Time to decide what  is being sent, who is being sent, transport, or lack of transport.
Base Borden has lots of troops, lots of training vechiles,  but most of the troops are non combat arms or are troops under traiining at the QL 3 level, not great effective fighting force or aide to civil power force.  Base Trenton, aircraft and airforcetypes are there, lots of planes and stuff but no troops to airlift in.
Base Petawawa, , lots of vechiles, lots of manpower, trained man power,  problem with them is distance to move troops to Southern Ontario. a few helicopters stationed there, air lift maybe 100 troops total  with basic equipment, still 2 hours plus to the city  after lift off. 

Those are just some of the basic factors that you have to think about before getting  excited that the military was left out this TRG EX. 

I am sure it will be a few months before all the reports are done and edited for mass release on how the various services reactted to the training, how they  will correct the mistakes they  found, I am sure some of it will never be released. I am sure you  will see new equipment dreams from all involved. You will see new equipment purchases in future city and department budgets. Some of you might even see a another training exercise that  has some uniformed military  leaders at , seeing how the Canadian Forces can be of help, or what  the military  might learn from them.

What  I want to see the feeling there is a plan, they know what  to do and I hope never to see them have to use it in real life. 

only edited for typos


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## FormerHorseGuard (21 Sep 2005)

I am not claiming to be the expert here on subway  trains, tunnels, and equipment.  Never in any  CF training program do they cover subway  tunnels, power supply and how the subway  works.  
no two subway  systems in Canada or the world run the same way, different voltages, power supply , means of supplying the power to the equipment.  some are 3rd rail power, some run on rubber wheels, some are mono rail, some are over head wires,different equipment is used on subways in torontot then used in montreal,  get the idea. 
i am so what  edcuated in the way a subway train operates and what  safety  devices are in place but no expert.  i was a grunt in a res unit and pay clerk later on, was on BDF force for a base I was on. No one ever covered how to walk or run thru a subway  tunnel and search for bombs or rescue people. That  is some they have specially trained TTC, Fire and Ambulance people , police and securty people for. No army  people are trained for that. it would be a major waste of army  money  to train anyone to do it. 
Toronto trains the people to do this and they have the means to train and the means to provide the training.

Army  guys stay  out of train tunnels because they  would get hurt big time. 660 volt 3rd rail cooks faster then you blink.


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## GNR (21 Sep 2005)

Good point FormerHorseGuard!

It certainly would make sense to start learning that stuff now, instead of having our troops just become another casualty when they are sent in as a last ditch effort.


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## Bruce Monkhouse (21 Sep 2005)

GNR,
You still don't get it......by the time the civil authourities called in the military there would be no power to some stupid third rail. Are you not happy just admitting that we are not a big part of the national disaster scheme?

...and to be truthful, you are not doing your troopies any favours if you think that kind of training should take anything away from the core war training they should be doing.


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## GNR (21 Sep 2005)

Bruce, sadly I have to accept the reality that the CF is not able to respond to something like this, unless it happens on someone else's soil in which case we will team up with the local authorities (and maybe other countries) as part of a task force to help.

That doesn't change that fact that I feel we SHOULD respond.


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## Old Ranger (21 Sep 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> How many times have you been on an exercises to do the same (almost) exact training. It gets boring, people get complacent and things get missed. The troops get bored as do the officers.



That's what a very good Enemy Force is for. 
Is there a reason you have to do the same thing.....until it is done right.

These training scenarios are not always politically motivated but need pressure on the politicians to allow the training.

Allot of the scenarios and requests for joint task force training have been submitted years ago.

As Former Horse Guard stated the ever changing/improving T.O. EMS system.   Do you think the Actual Subway accident in the 90's wasn't thought up earlier
as a scenario?
They were able to make improvements from fact and finally get a chance to practice what they plan.


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## GNR (22 Sep 2005)

Piper, in the spirit of "playing nice", I'll elaborate a bit more, with-out playing into the smart-a$$ comments about the nice big colourful pictures..



> The CF should NOT respond until we are asked to



No arguing that.  Sending troops in when they are not required would just add to the already insuing chaos.



> (so when the poo really hits the fan)  because with one or two exceptions we have NO units that are trained for this type of problem



Exactly the problem that I am speaking of.  If we have no one trained to react to this type of a problem and we do receive that call we will be more of a hinderance than help.



> large ammounts of manpower and/or heavy equipment (i.e. during floods) are needed when civvie resources are exhausted.



So in the case of a terrorist attack in a subway there would be extensive damage to it and the surrounding areas.  The city could probably handle it, but as was mentioned before training is typically completed in a worst case scenario so let's assume it would surpass their efforts.  Therefore it may require more trained feet on the ground either helping with the displaced and wounded OR operating heavy equipment.

Worse case, the terrorists aren't done and more damage starts occuring.

As I mentioned above, if we don't practice these skills WITH the joint forces we will be working with we will be a hinderance instead of help.



> We help when civvie resources are exhausted, which will happen long after a first response scenario.



Correct, and if we do not participate in the first response exercises that practice these skills we will fail them if they call on us.  I am not suggesting that we send troops EVERYTIME there is such an exercise, but we should be part of the command element as an advisor and observer.

The command element must understand what they are sending our troops into.  By monitoring and assisting in the effort that the civy response teams are doing we will have a better idea of the civlian capabilities.  And I am SURE that we will be astounded by their capabilities, imagine what they could do if they had more trained people to do the grunt work so they could focus on the advanced skills they have aquired.

The command element must also KNOW what the civy response team is capable of so that he can determine where his troops will best fit in.



> We learn that the CF should not be involved in a first response exercise (or a real scenario)



I would imagine there has been instances where we were the first response over seas to disastors both natural and man-made.

The reason the US military forces can work so well as first responders is because they work very closely with the civy services.  They know where they fit in the big puzzle.

We will be called upon, by participating in these exercises we can also answer these questions:
Will we be help or hinderance?
Do we have a grasp on the skills and equipment that are already available and in use by the rest of the response effort?
Where will our troops be of the most benefit?
What equipment do we have that is not already in abundance?

In order to succeed you must prepare, if you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail.
If all crap hits the fan we are EXPECTED to succeed, let's make sure we do.


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## Michael OLeary (22 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> Exactly the problem that I am speaking of.  If we have no one trained to react to this type of a problem and we do receive that call we will be more of a hinderance than help.



GNR, a significant issue would be detailing exactly what skills need to be trained, how much time and money would be expended on it, and how many different "first response" skill sets would be required by which units.

Also, any attempts to execute cooperative training with municipal or provincial (or even other federal) organizations incurs costs. You can be sure that if DND suddenly declared it an operationsal requirement for any of our units/personnel to train with these agencies, they would be standing there with their bill in hand for us to pay as well.

Could you detail exactly what you had in mind as the critical minimum training you perceive is recommended for all CF personnel, for specific personnel, or for designated units? Also, how much training time and what budgeted items would you accept being reduced to balance the time and financial costs of these new responaibilities you judge to be so critical?

Thank you.


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## GNR (22 Sep 2005)

Michael, I've never said this was a critical function of the CF, but it IS one that we are expected to do if the crap hits the fan.  With-out participating in these exercises it is impossible to know what is exactly is expected of us.

Do we require more training?  I'm not sure.  Most likely we will require some command training to learn how to best use the skills we already have in a response situation.

I guess we can wait until we are called on and hope for the best, but I think preparing would make more sense.


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## Michael OLeary (22 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> The reserves from the areas surrounding the incident should be able to help out until the regular force is mobilized.  As Kirkhill pointed out, the local authorities may not be in a state that they will be able to properly respond.  It would make sense to draw from outside help.  *Reservists SHOULD be trained as first responders.*





			
				GNR said:
			
		

> 2ndly, I know it is currently not the Reserves 'Raison d'etre' to be Emergency Responders, thus my saying *"SHOULD be trained as first responders".*





			
				GNR said:
			
		

> .......
> 
> *I stand firm in my belief that the CF should be one of the first responders to a terrorist situation on our soil.*
> 
> ...





			
				GNR said:
			
		

> ......
> 
> So let me get this straight,  no one else feels they need to protect the soil we live on??
> *The rest of you feel if we have a terrorist attack we are to rely on the civy services to mop up the situation and protect our citizens?*
> ...






			
				GNR said:
			
		

> .........
> 
> I guess that is why I find it even more shocking that members of the CF feel that they don't need to be there.  *The civy streets expects you to be there.*






			
				GNR said:
			
		

> I have seen most of the kit and training that the civy services have, and I am not saying we should replace them.
> *I simply feel that we should be part of the anti-terrorism effort here in Canada.*





			
				GNR said:
			
		

> Bruce, sadly I have to accept the reality that the CF is not able to respond to something like this, unless it happens on someone else's soil in which case we will team up with the local authorities (and maybe other countries) as part of a task force to help.
> 
> *That doesn't change that fact that I feel we SHOULD respond.*





			
				GNR said:
			
		

> ..........
> 
> As I mentioned above,* if we don't practice these skills WITH the joint forces we will be working with we will be a hinderance instead of help.*
> 
> ...




GNR,

you have repeated stated in this thread that we should be preparing our troops as first responders, with an emphasis on counter-terorism, that we should be trained, and you stated that we will fail if we do not prepare.

That sounds to me like a clear indication that you feel that there are specific things we should be training NOW to do later in case of emergency.

I am only asking you to expand on your argument and detail two principal points:

(a) training who to what, exactly?, and

(b) what current training do we decrease to enable this? (Because there's not going to be more money just because we want to add this to our skillsets.)


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## FormerHorseGuard (22 Sep 2005)

after reading various  and watching various news reports on the Canadian Efforts in the States.
I see one huge problem with calling out the military  in civil respose.
LAW SUITS.
CanadianForces  Doctors , NURSES, MEDIC , not allowed to treat US Civilians because of risk of lawsuits and who would pay  for the lawsuit if sued, Canadian Forces, Canadian Government, or US Government. That is one major stumbling block for the CF  med people to overcome.
So medical teams need to have some sort of coverage provided to protect them from lawsuit. ( Res persons have private practices they  might wish to protect from lawsuits unlike the Reg Force side of the house. ) So not many  RES force medical team people might not want to don the uniform to do the job on a Canadian city  soil. Imight be wrong but I know i would worry  about being sued while dealing with a joe blow medical problem, so anything beyond basic first aide, i would want a AJAG person to tell me the limits and the coverage and protect the Forces are going to give me.

The Res units in the cities could provide a huge amount of log support, trucks, heavy  equipment,( but a lot of the bigger toys are now being pooled at training centers ???? )  weapons would be a gray  area,  command and control area, use of drill squares and such , could be a given if cleared by  higher,  rest and sleep quarters. 

they  could provide a lot of things but it would all have to come thru  the higher chain of command.  we all know that  chain of command decesions are not made after a few minutes of thinking,  and this would have to passed up and down, taking time.  Especially  time consuming considering the RES UNIT A  has a full time staff of maybe 10 to 15 people,  request comes in  SNR person calls CO who is part timer, he considers it, passes it up to District HQ , considers it passes it on to Area , area passes it on LFC HQ and then it gets to NDHQ , and cabinet Minister and PMO , they make final yes or no, then it passes back down the chain
could be 1 to?????? how many  days for it to work its way  back to that  RES unit A

OR mayor of city  ZZZZ calls the Ontario government and the requests start there, ontario calls Ottawa , then PMO, Minister call NDHQ and down the chain goes the Order. LFC to AREA,  Area to District,  finally  to unit,  remembering CO is part timer and he has to be called in, he  comes reads the order, he started the telephone chain to go out and bring in the troops.  how many  hours or days would pass before the first RES unit Soldier is on the ground providing the aid or equipment required?

Res units as first responders is not a great idea too time consuming, unless they  do something to speed it up:

1) skip various levels of the chain of command.  a mayor did that  once, called the base for snow removal,  it happens but it made everyone look sort of stupid
2) speed up the res recall system, issue every  res soldier a pager and put them on some sort of alert shift?
3) remove heavy  equipment from training centers for a just in case role, defeats the idea of a training pool, waste time borrowing and returning equipment
4) leave it as is and hope the higher ups have a system in place for this ?
5) how many  res force soldiers can be called away  in less then 24 hours notice and be there?
6) how res soldiers have kit packed and ready?
all questions to think about and answer


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## GNR (22 Sep 2005)

We have been slotted with the task of being the final solution, should the crap hit the fan.  We are expected to succeed, right?

As I said earlier, being that we have not been actively part of the effort I can't say what skills we need, those would come to light in participation of a first response exercise.  It is possible that the skills we already have can be used for responding.  I don't have a list of new skills, and haven't determined if these new skills would take precedence over skills we are currently trained in.

I never intended to suggest there are specific skills we should be training, just that we (maybe just one or two individuals) should be part of the effort and training, from the begining, so that when the crap hits the fan and we send in troops we are able to succeed.

Those individuals would be able to determine after witnessing a few of these exercises if we require any new skills or where we could use the ones we currently have.

Most likely most of our troops would fill in so that the skilled response workers can complete their work.  But our engineers for example probably have some skills that would be a great asset. (That is just one example, I'll bet others in the forum can think of examples where their training can be used in a response to a terrorist attack).  If we were to practice those specific skills in a first response scenario it would make us better at the job when we get the call to respond.

This kind of practice could be the training that makes a difference between our being successful and failing.

Don't forget the first responders to the situation will be the police, firefighters and EMS.  But if we are called in, we would be the first responders to each scenario from that point forward. 

But I have already said all this, rather than continuing to repeat myself on these points, I have to ask are you a couple questions:
Do you feel we should just hope for the best rather than observe and determine if we need to make changes?
Can you see any advantage to our participating in one of these exercises?
Is there a disadvantage to our participation?

Curiously, is there already a liason between the civy responders and the military?  If so, have they witnessed similiar exercises to the one in TO?  Have they made any recommendations that have effected our training?  Or have they determined a way to use our current skill sets in a first response scenario?


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## GNR (22 Sep 2005)

> all questions to think about and answer



Yup Horseguard you are right, we have lots to sort out so that if we do get the call we know what the heck we are doing.
Participating in a couple of these exercises would help take the guess work out.


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## MPIKE (23 Sep 2005)

I was away (thankfully) for a few days and returned to see this thread had 3 more pages added.   ;D
GNR,


> I can't say what skills we need


*Then you are getting into an area in which you are not qualified nor have a SMEA background.  Then suggest   a time out to read up on this area before you try to argue your point?



			Don't forget the first responders to the situation will be the police, firefighters and EMS.
		
Click to expand...

I thought you were finally onside until....



			But if we are called in, we would be the first responders to each scenario from that point forward.
		
Click to expand...





			Curiously, is there already a liason between the civy responders and the military?  If so, have they witnessed similiar exercises to the one in TO?  Have they made any recommendations that have effected our training?  Or have they determined a way to use our current skill sets in a first response scenario?
		
Click to expand...

Please contact your unit OPs and obtain the 33BDE Professional Development 9-10Apr05 Kingston CD.  This has loads of info which may enlighten you on Domestic Ops, CONPLAN RAPTOR etc.  This may? give you an understanding of just how large of a request you are wanting for the Reserves or the CF to be involved in such training.
I think if you take the time to read this material you will fully understand the CF position.  

edited for brevity*


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## GNR (23 Sep 2005)

Thanks for the more reasonable response Piker!  I intended this to be a constructive conversation, if I wanted to have an argument I would have asked my wife the question. (It's not that she is argumentative, it's just that it is potentially more training that I would be away for) 

I reviewed CONPLAN RAPTOR again, thanks for the reminder!  It was the document that spurred on my question.

We are somewhat involved and we have monitored similiar situations, but the development of liasons in each area is not yet complete.  We have listed some areas of expertise, where our troops can be best used and determined that they do not require a new skill set.  But we did all this with-out testing our theories.

Ultimately this brought me back to my original question, why weren't we involved in the recent exercise in TO, it seems like it is the perfect opportunity to test what we have written we are capable of.

I found my answer by reviewing the document "The CF is not funded to carry out tasks other than those that fall within the Defence mandate.   All costs associated with the conduct of domestic operations are normally subject to recovery from the requesting agency."

Our participation in the exercise would be at the expense of the agency that asked us to be involved, therefore we will not test our capabilities and will hope for the best.


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## paracowboy (23 Sep 2005)

GNR, Michael O'Leary has already told us that we *were* represented, and that Higher *is* reviewing/planning.


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## GNR (23 Sep 2005)

Yeah, thanks paracowboy I mentioned earlier that I wouldn't have even bothered with my original question if that would have been in the article.

But then I started getting questioned on why we should be involved at all.....


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## GNR (23 Sep 2005)

> Curiously, is there already a liason between the civy responders and the military?  If so, have they witnessed similiar exercises to the one in TO?  Have they made any recommendations that have effected our training?  Or have they determined a way to use our current skill sets in a first response scenario?



Sorry, I meant this sarcastically, to point out that others in a much higher pay bracket than me also feel we should be part of a response effort.


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## 2 Cdo (23 Sep 2005)

Gnr, others have pointed out REPEATEDLY your oversimplification of things and your blind adherence to your own argument (which you failed to point out HOW   or WHAT we the military should do).
Maybe it's time to sit back and let those with the training and experience come up with a plan.   :-X


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## Black Watch (23 Sep 2005)

Montréal did something similar


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## GNR (23 Sep 2005)

LMAO 2CDO, you're too much.

Read my posts, I have never claimed that I was to be the planning expert, or that I had the solution.  I am NOT the SME in this subject, I asked why we were not involved in an exercise that we could use to prove the skills we are suppossed to use to bail out an overwhelmed group of responders.

I feel that we should be practicing the skills of a first responder in a actual exercise, instead of assuming we can use the skills we have to respond.

I also stated in one of most recent posts (Thanks to Piper for pointing out the document that contained the info!) that it would appear it is up to the agency that requests us to pay our wages, therefore we will not put our skills to the test.

Defending that we belong there was a side track and had nothing to do with why I posted the original question, it has already been established that we are going to be used in domestic ops (similiar to the exercise in TO) by the CDS.  I wanted to know why we weren't involved in this one.  And as I just said my answer arrived, ultimately it comes down to money that prevents us from being part of one of these exercises, NOT that we don't belong etc as was suggested from some others.

Read ALL the posts BEFORE you jump in with your comments.


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## George Wallace (23 Sep 2005)

:brickwall:


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## Teddy Ruxpin (23 Sep 2005)

Perhaps a different perspective is in order here.

The CF plans for Domestic Operations as an important, albeit secondary, task.  We have an extensive liaison structure beginning with the national level at PSEPC and continuing through the various provincial structures.  Here in LFWA, we have a domestic operations detachment permanently emplaced with each province and have liaison officers capable of deploying to the municipal level.

There are all sorts of reasons why the CF doesn't get involved proactively in domestic emergencies:

1.  Emergency response is a provincial responsiblity and the provinces don't often appreciate a Federal institution becoming involved in their sandbox.

2.  The provinces (in my direct experience) also don't appreciate CF involvement at the municipal level - it violates their internal chain of command.

3.  We are the force of last resort.  If the Army's there, there's nothing else.  Having CF involvement at the very beginning creates false expectations of when and to what extent we're going to be involved.  The rule of thumb is that if a civilian agency can handle something, we let it.  However, the request procedure is well established, routinely utilized and is capable of being executed on very short notice.

4.  As much as some would like it to be, domestic operations are not our primary role.  We're good at it because we bring all sorts of capabilities to the table:  planning, rapid mobility, operational flexibility, a capability to operate completely independently, transport capabilities and all sorts of specialized kit.  We bring those capabilities precisely because we train to deploy and execute warfighting operations.

5.  Legalese.  The CF cannot intervene in domestic operations without a specific request from the province concerned.  This includes exercises.  For this one, was an invitation even issued from Ontario?  Even though local commanders now have authority to respond immediately in very specific emergency situations, even they need a request to do so.  A request for armed assistance must follow a very specific legal chain to be approved.

6.  Money.  As I said earlier, domestic emergency response is a provinicial responsibility.  If we participate in domestic operations, we are, in theory, supposed to be reinbursed the funds expended.

7.  Finally, what would a CF role on such an exercise have been?  A Reserve infantry company brings limited skills to the table in an emergency situation.  Our medical people cannot treat civilians without waivers in place.  We cannot do assistance to law enforcement without a formal request via the Sol Gen net.  Our SF cannot deploy without a formal order.  Unless military involvement in a domestic response exercise is planned from the beginning, with all request procedures in place (and exercised), it becomes pretty pointless almost immediately.

There's more but you get the idea....


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## GNR (23 Sep 2005)

Thanks Teddy.

I can't help but fear that with-out practice we may fail, but I understand why we aren't part of the exercises.


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## Teddy Ruxpin (23 Sep 2005)

Well, to assage your fears, we do practice - quite routinely - and have a pretty robust procedural process for military involvement in domestic operations that is actually used much more than people realize.

For example, a Pacific earthquake response is to be exercised at the national level next week; I have attended exercises in the US involving movement of both US and Canadian forces across the border in response to a disaster; we are holding a major exercise in the spring to practice the deployment of support forces to BC; there are written, fully validated contingency plans for a number of disaster and attack scenarios already in place; and, finally, our liaison structure is firmly in place and has been utilized on real operations over and over again.  It is also much simpler than that in the US, as has been pointed out on other threads.

All this to say that we now have a significant amount of experience with real-time domestic response.  The new command structure should simplify things even further.

Hope this helps,

TR


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## bossi (24 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> ... Read my posts, I have never claimed that I was to be the planning expert, or that I had the solution.   I am NOT the SME in this subject, I asked why we were not involved in an exercise that we could use to prove the skills we are suppossed to use to bail out an overwhelmed group of responders. ...



In a nutshell, the Toronto exercise was a low-level tactical exercise, of short duration.  It did not entail a scenario whereby civil authorities were overwhelmed, which in turn is the defnitive "trigger" for military assistance.



			
				GNR said:
			
		

> ... I feel that we should be practicing the skills of a first responder in a actual exercise, instead of assuming we can use the skills we have to respond. ...



Everybody is entitled to their opinion.  
However,  in the context of civilian emergency management (which the CF sometimes supports with something referred to as "Domestic Operations") "first responder" means fire/police/ambulance, and in general the CF is the force of last recourse (i.e. not "first response").



			
				GNR said:
			
		

> ... I also stated in one of most recent posts *(Thanks to Piper for pointing out the document that contained the info!)* that it would appear it is up to the agency that requests us to pay our wages, therefore we will not put our skills to the test.



Yup - I'd have to agree:  You're not the SME ...
(i.e. if you weren't already aware of those documents)



			
				GNR said:
			
		

> ... I wanted to know why we weren't involved in this one.  And as I just said my answer arrived, ultimately it comes down to money that prevents us from being part of one of these exercises, NOT that we don't belong etc as was suggested from some others. ...



If this were a test/exam on a course, and if that was your final answer ... you'd be a trg failure.
Money/funding is NOT the deciding factor.
Whether or not we "belong" there is/was.
Feel free to contact me at work if you still don't get it.



			
				GNR said:
			
		

> ... Read ALL the posts BEFORE you jump in with your comments.



I tried ... but then my brain went numb ...  :brickwall:
How about you stay in your lane, and I'll stay in mine?


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## bossi (24 Sep 2005)

GNR said:
			
		

> "Curiously, is there already a liason between the civy responders and the military?  If so, have they witnessed similiar exercises to the one in TO?  Have they made any recommendations that have effected our training?  Or have they determined a way to use our current skill sets in a first response scenario?"
> 
> Sorry, I meant this sarcastically, to point out that others in a much higher pay bracket than me also feel we should be part of a response effort.



Your attempt at sarcasm failed - to me, you sounded like an idiot
(but, I'm not a SME on idiots - I'm only expressing my personal opinion).

1.  "... is there already a liason [sic] ...?" - Yes.
2.  "... If so ...?" - Yes.
3.  "... Have they made any recommendations ...?" - Yes.
4.  "... Or have then determined ... ?" - Yes.

Others, in the highest pay bracket, feel our Army should be an Army.

P.S.  The very fact that you do not know the extent of CF participation on the Toronto TTC exercise is irrefutable proof that you do not know what you are talking about.  Until you do, please feel free to listen and learn - you might find it enlightening, or dare I suggest ... educational?


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## Michael OLeary (24 Sep 2005)

GNR,

in a previous posting I spent a few years as the Domestic Plans officer in an Area HQ. The 20+ plans I dealt with ranged from generic emergency response, to support to counter-terrorism ops, support to Correctional Services, and Nuclear Emergency response. I, or others in the section, attended municipal and federally conducted planning exercises (including ones with DND as the lead agency when applicable) in a wide range of operational scenarios. These exercises involved all response agencies: local and federal police, civilian emergency responders, to JTF-2 and the Solicitor-General's representatives, when applicable. In some exercises, the decision making cycle was modeled up to AND INCLUDING the PM. 

At the Canadian Land Force Command and Staff College (CLFCSC), each Army Operations Course (AOC) includes a brief seminar of lectures and syndicate discusions on Domestic Operations; Aid to the Civil Power, Armed Assistance, and emergency response. This ensures that every Army officer will gain some familiarity with the divisions of responsibilities, and the relevent documentation supporting the involvement of the CF in such events. Speakers at these seminars always include representatives from the SOlicitor-General and NDHQ. These seminars are also attended members of the RMCP, provincial and local police forces, Emergency Measures Organizations, and Area HQ staff, among others. 

DND has always recognized the likelihood of our involvement of emergemcy scenarios, and being involved in exercising and practicing the required liaison and decision-making structures.

The background documents provide us a strong framework for DND involvement. I would suggest you start by seeking out and reading some of the primary documents, such as:

(a)   DCDS 2/98 Guidance for the Conduct of Domestic Operations

(b)   B-GS-055-000/AG-001, Provision of Services Policy

and for your particular point of concern regarding CT;

(c)   The National Counter-Terorism Plan

You should be able to find at least the two former documents through the DIN, and possibly the later (which is an unclassified document detailing the coordination methodologies and responsibilities, not tactical operations).


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## GNR (25 Sep 2005)

Thanks Michael!


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## childs56 (6 Oct 2005)

I seen the interview by the CDS to the University, not sure what one it was though. 
The CDS made a statement that the number one priority for the CF was to ensure that we can provide assistance to any and all domestic situations that may arise. He went on to state that we have to make changes with in the CF to accomplish this feat.   He also stated that we would maintain our war fighting skills to the highest levels. 

Really we need to be able to respond to a disaster of any type. The US although not a perfect situation have teams such as the ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS. They have and regularly train to respond to disasters and other emergency's. They have the man power and equipment to respond in a decent amount of time and efficiency. As i stated they are not perfect but they do have a plan and can deploy quickly. They already know what is in a city because for the most part they work civie side doing the same job or similar. 

A response was made earlier that although Reservists were with in a city that they would be more worried about their own family's to respond. I can say the snow storm in 96 in Vic BC(think thats right year) seen guys show up walking through the snow, some ex members even showed up to volunteer their services.  This showed me the true value of a Reserve force with in a major metropolitan area.
A similar instance when the fires happened two years ago. Reservists from around the province, even ones with high paying jobs came to the call to respond to the fires. some who work as higher ups in major companies responded. This showed the intrest of how we can respond to a situation with in a local community or area. 
Was the deployment a great success story. Yes and no Equipment shortages were big problems, those slowly worked them selves out. I remember going to 1ASG for some supply's. Basic stuff sunscreen, batteries, PPE water. When the supply tech heard we had pretty much nothing to our names  he gave us a few tri walls of equipment. All basic deployment stuff but things that made life a little easier.

We have a very basic system in place already, what we need to do is expand on it and practice it to ensure that the logistics work as does the specialization in areas of construction, rescue in urban areas, and possibly other skills that we have not and or haven't for a while practiced .


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## bossi (6 Oct 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> ... Really we need to be able to respond to a disaster of any type. The US although not a perfect situation have teams such as the ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS. They have and regularly train to respond to disasters and other emergency's. *They have the man power and equipment to respond in a decent amount of time and efficiency.* As i stated they are not perfect but they do have a plan and can deploy quickly. They already know what is in a city because for the most part they work civie side doing the same job or similar. ...



However, you'll also note the USACE has changed recently ...
(i.e. historically, they've been more attuned to Water Resources, Environment, Infrastructure, Warfighting ... and Homeland Security is a "relative newcomer" since ... 2002)

http://www.usace.army.mil/missions/index.html

And, if we were to imagine creating a "Canadian Corps of Army Engineers" ... where should we cut from our existing Army?  (i.e. our Engineers are already over-tasked ...)



> The United States Army Corps of Engineers (USACE) is made up of approximately 34,600 Civilian and 650 military members.


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## Bloggins (12 Oct 2005)

Toronto does have a large emergency services group that is trained and equipped to a certain level. What the CF could bring to the table is questionable based not only on our size, equipment and ability deploy.  but also on sustainment. The CF does have a regular force unit always on the list to respond within 24 hours to a domestic crisis and Toronto does have a reserve domestic response unit but currently it has been mandated to respond with 48 hours. The game plan as far as I have been lead to believe is this. The local authorities will respond to a crisis and if help is required the federal Govt will deploy what ever regular force unit is on stand by hopefully arriving within 24 hours. The next day the DRU will with 2 riffle Coy's, 1 troop of engineers, 1 armoured troop (soft skin) an HQ element and limited css will act as follow on forces and be deployed as seen fit. LFCA has been exercising the reserve element 2 or 3 times a year since the trade towers came down. But the exercise that Toronto emergency services conducted has little place for the assistance we would be able to offer. Our support would as far as I know come in the shape of command and control, vital point security, aid distribution and man power. In the U.S when they deploy the national guard under their system they already have all of the kit they need and can just go. In Canada regular force and reserve we need to borrow and trade before we can go any where.

Cheers.


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## James (22 Oct 2005)

I just have one question, and no it's not why isn't the CF a first response unit.  ;D

The municipal agencies are the first on the scene when we're hit by terrorists. You have the CBRN, police, FD, etc there. The CF would come in later if the city requests their assistance. My question is this: once the police and FD find evidence of the bomb (if a bomb is used), would they share that information with DND, even if there aren't any troops there?

Thanks.


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## Old Ranger (22 Oct 2005)

James said:
			
		

> My question is this: once the police and FD find evidence of the bomb (if a bomb is used), would they share that information with DND, even if there aren't any troops there?



Why would they?  If there are no "Troops" on the ground, there wouldn't be a need to share immediately.

Any joint opperation is supposed to have information flowing evenly.  So if Troops were on the ground for terrorist bombs, don't you think "this is what we found, look out for same" would apply?

There might be some closed door sessions that pass info back and forth.

P.S. the police are the only ones that deal with "Bombs" in civi land.
You might be mistaken with the FD, because they are always around for the Camera and don't have hush orders like the rest of us.


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## MPIKE (22 Oct 2005)

> would they share that information with DND, even if there aren't any troops there?



This is finely coming to the line of continuing into the "what if" territory ;D (and you don't what to be that guy in the class)

As with any critical incident all the neccessary avenues would be explored.  If a law enforcement agency found their investigation leading towards the need to involve federal level authorities they would be included.  Be safe in knowing that if it was a national security matter all the stakeholders would be talking to one another.  

Now are you wondering if a Cpl in a Reserve unit would be in the DND loop like an episode of E-ring or 24??.. um ah No..


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## bossi (23 Oct 2005)

PIKER said:
			
		

> ...   Be safe in knowing that if it was a national security matter all the stakeholders would be talking to one another.
> 
> Now are you wondering if a Cpl in a Reserve unit would be in the DND loop like an episode of E-ring or 24??.. um ah No..



(chuckle) - the only thing that could have improved upon your post would have been to mention "... an episode of JAG ..." (LOL) - the other exception being ... when reservists are police officers on civvie street (!)

Bloggins also made a very, very good post - good on you!  (although, I'm thinking we need to underline and bold "limited CSS")

On a normal/ongoing basis, information is passed within police circles - municipal/regional police will share with provincial/federal levels, and then the RCMP has input into a larger loop up in Ottawa - that's where Other Government Departments (OGD) get informed, as appropriate/necessary (including DND).

As an aside, civilian police forces also have some interface on a daily/lower level, when it comes to Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) - however, that's largely mundane (i.e. you'll never see it on E-ring, 24 or JAG).


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## James (26 Oct 2005)

Thanks for answering my question guys.

And I've never been much of a fan of 24... I find it's way too pro-American. E-Ring is decent, though... aside from Denis Hopper's horrible acting.  ;D


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