# Deploying the DART to Asia



## Lethbridge U (29 Dec 2004)

I was watching the National tonight on CBC and they were talking about how they were not able to send D.A.R.T to the nations stricken by the tsunami(s) because the cost was too high. I have to say that I was a little pissed off by that. What is the point of having a disaster recovery team when you don't even use it? With the amount of help needed by the world community in a time like this I am a little disgusted by our government on this issue. It makes D.A.R.T look more like a PR stunt rather than an actual tool for aid.
just my 2 cents.


----------



## KevinB (29 Dec 2004)

Having been part of DART's first attempt I think it should have been dumped LONG AGO...


----------



## JasonH (29 Dec 2004)

By GLORIA GALLOWAY
From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

Ottawa â â€ Federal officials say a Canadian disaster-response unit launched with much fanfare in 1996 is not being deployed in the early days of the tsunami crisis because its field hospital and water-purification unit are not the relief tools required at this time.

Critics worry that cuts to the military have made it financially impossible to move the Canadian Forces Disaster Response Team, known as DART, to the areas levelled by the giant waves. It takes 24 lumbering Hercules airplanes to transport it out of the country and cost the government $15-million the last time it was dispatched.

But representatives of the departments of National Defence and Foreign Affairs, as well as the Canadian International Development Agency, said yesterday that finances and logistics are not keeping the unit grounded.

Deploying DART â Å“very much has to be driven by the needs that have been identified in a given crisis situation based on what our partners on the ground are telling us,â ? said Elissa Golberg, a director of humanitarian affairs in the Foreign Affairs Department.

Water purification is the major requirement in regions hardest hit, and Ms. Golberg said Canada has responded by sending water-purification tablets and other components on a plane that left for Sri Lanka yesterday afternoon.

DART, which involves more than 200 military personnel from medics to security officers to field engineers, is not generally used during the first 72 hours of a crisis, she said. It was not sent to Haiti earlier this year when a hurricane killed more than a thousand people and has only been deployed on rare occasions.

â Å“It's more of a medium-term intervention,â ? Ms. Golberg said. â Å“The DART is not off the table. It's an important part of our tool kit. But we need to make sure that it is the kind of tool that is needed to respond to this particular circumstance.â ?

Colonel Guy Laroche acknowledged that there are not enough Hercules available to get DART to a country like Sri Lanka, but said there are other methods of transport that could be used, including commercial aircraft. 

Ms. Golberg added that the government has been discussing ways to better mobilize the operation, including breaking it up so that, for example, the water-purification unit could be deployed on its own.

Ministerial officials denied that Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew and International Development Minister Aileen Carroll being out of the country for holidays has affected Canada's response. Both ministers have been in regular contact with their departments and officials overseas even if they have not been available to talk with the media, they said.

A spokeswoman for Defence Minister Bill Graham said DART would not be used without a request from one of the countries hit by the disaster or one of the aid agencies working in the region.

â Å“This is the biggest catastrophe in years,â ? said Isabelle Savard. â Å“On the other hand, we're not just going to put people on the plane without knowing where they are going to go and what they are supposed to do.â ?

But Ted Menzies, the Conservative critic for CIDA, said he was concerned the unit was being kept at home for financial reasons.

â Å“I have to wonder, have we cut our military so badly, does DART even exist any more?â ? he asked. â Å“I hope that they're there because, if we were ever going to put this team into action, now is the time.â ?

He also questioned whether there could be any doubt that a field hospital and a water purification unit would be valuable in areas hit by tsunamis.

â Å“We've seen enough news clips on television to know there is a disaster â â€ probably the largest natural disaster that we have ever seen and hopefully ever will see in our lifetime,â ? Mr. Menzies said. 

â Å“We're going to sit back and wait for a request to come and help? That's ridiculous.â ? 

In fact, Ms. Golberg said, the government of Sri Lanka has said it believes it has enough medical professionals to deal with the crisis and the situation in other countries such as Indonesia has not been fully assessed.

â Å“We never want Canada to be in a situation where it just deploys a tool because we have it. We have to make sure that the kind of things that Canada provides is going to meet the needs of the victims.â ?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041229.wxtsunami-dart29/BNStory/National/

[Moderator note:  Edited only to remove useless links]


----------



## JasonH (29 Dec 2004)

*Not yet time to send DART to Asia: officials*

OTTAWA (CP) - Although Canada's military keeps an emergency response team on standby to help in international disasters, it isn't "the right tool" to help victims of a devastating Asian earthquake and tsunami, federal officials said Tuesday. 

"It seems the DART is not the right tool at this time," Col. Guy Laroche of the Department of National Defence told a Media briefing three days after the crisis hit. Officials were responding to criticisms that the Canadian Forces Disaster Assistance Response Team hasn't yet been sent to the region devastated by an earthquake that triggered massive tidal waves on Boxing Day. 

Officials said they're not ruling out sending the DART team, which sets up a mobile field hospital, at some point. 

But information is still coming in from the region and as yet, no government there has made a formal request to Ottawa for such help, officials said. 

"We don't want to deploy something if it's not going to be useful," said Elissa Golberg with the Foreign Affairs department. 

The DART team was last used five years ago to assist when a massive earthquake hit Turkey. 

Its workings are complex, involving a kind of military field hospital that uses about 200 personnel including medics, engineers and security personnel. 

Part of its expertise is in water purification, which is desperately needed in the stricken area that includes coastal areas from Sri Lanka to Thailand, India and parts of Indonesia. 

But Laroche said that deploying the DART team isn't intended as a short-term response mechanism. 

And it would take about 24 flights of a full Hercules aircraft to ferry the 200 DART personnel and all their equipment to the region, added Laroche, Coordinator for International Missions for DND. 

Meanwhile, Canadian officials have been reviewing the DART program since fall - well before the current crisis - to find ways of making it more nimble, Golberg said. 

"We've been evaluating this, even before the hurricane season in the Americas, to see how we might be able, for instance, to break it up into pieces so we can use it more frequently in the Canadian tool kit," she said. 

"So these are things that have already been under active consideration by us." 

Thats from the earthquake thread


----------



## McG (29 Dec 2004)

Jay Hunter said:
			
		

> A spokeswoman for Defence Minister Bill Graham said DART would not be used without a request from one of the countries hit by the disaster or one of the aid agencies working in the region.


We are waiting for a request?   Have we made an offer?

I wonder if DFAIT has been advertising this "tool" to the affected countries or if we are waiting for those countries to think of it themsleves?   Is CIDA telling the NGOs about DART?


----------



## KevinB (29 Dec 2004)

MCG said:
			
		

> Is CIDA telling the NGOs about DART?



They better not be - it would really be embarassing publically not go somewhere we were needed (again...) if asked by Canadian NGO's

UNLESS we pony up for some C17's and a C5 - DART is a pipedream.
 I was part of it when it first got dreamed up - it seem to keep getting bigger and bigger but no clearer focus.


----------



## pbi (29 Dec 2004)

Having baby-sat DART for a while as A/G3 of LFCA, I am with KevinB 100%. I do not like DART. DART is IMHO a misuse of resources in a cash-strapped military, and is as much a "feel-good" as anything else. We should not be humanitarian first responders: the military should facilitate GOs/IOs (and maybe those NGOs that don't hate us too much...) to get to the scene of thes situation and to operate securely and effectively, but we should not spend our own resources to configure units specifically for humanitarian ops. If it isn't really a job for the military, don't send the military: send money, materials or the right civil agency.

A good point has been raised by the Govt: we haven't been asked. The most competent judge of what is required is not the Canadian media or various political snipers-it is the govt of the affected country who will ask for what they need. This rush to send the DART reminds me of pressure we got in LFCA from the MNDs office back during the Walkerton water emergency, to deploy 2CER's ROWPU to Walkerton, despite the fact there was no requirement for it and no request from either the town or the Province to do so.Reportedly this was described by one of hte MND's staffers as being a "great photo op".  The deployment of the  LFCA IRU to Toronto during "Mel's Snowstorm" was another example of unnecessary knee-jerk dispatching of troops for political "feel-good" reasons. Cheers.


----------



## Recce41 (29 Dec 2004)

PBI
 I know same people that have said the DART is a good thing? We do require it. Every country has a DART. We just need the aircraft. 
 Asd for the snow storm. George and I were there. our mechs got the bowling alley working and we ran 3 LOSV courses. A lot of Dog and ponies. O our ARV, did help rerighting a truck. It was funny, they did want B Sqn's Dozer. That would have been a sight. A LEO Dozer plowing out Mel's driveway.  
 George, did you see Capt CH on CBC? He does make a good PA officer.  ;D  :evil: :tank:


----------



## Gunner (29 Dec 2004)

LFWA stood up the first DART in the mid 90s in response to DFAITs feel good strategy under Lloyd Axworthy.  The DART is fairly limited in what it can accomplish.  By the time it arrived in theatre (which country do you go to?) and became operational the key time within a disaster would be over.  In this case, money is what the countries need.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (29 Dec 2004)

I love the investments we've made in assets we're unable to deploy.




Matthew.   :


----------



## Edward Campbell (29 Dec 2004)

[rant]

*pbi* makes a point which resonates with me.   I heard Colonel Laroche on the radio, and ... *I don't believe a word he says*.

I do not know Colonel Laroche, but I am reasonably sure he is a fine officer, sterling human being, good father, and, and, and ... I am also sure that what he said was written for him by a public affairs officer who has little interest and no useful knowledge about the whys and wherefores of the DART or air transport but is highly sensitive to every nuance of _good photo ops_ and potentially embarrassing news stories.

I watched the _evolution_ of *public information* into *public affairs* with growing concern over the last 25+ years.

I fully understand that the Minister of National Defence must have his own spin doctors whose primary (only) aim is to make him look good or, at the very least, not too bad.   I even understand that the CDS wants (thinks he needs?) something similar.   I also understand that the Canadian Forces *need* some means of telling the truth to the people of Canada.   

I submit that one organization cannot â â€œ cannot even try to â â€œ do both jobs.   DND (including the CF) has one and only one _communications_ branch and it serves the *needs* of the minister (making him look not too bad, despite everything) which means, _ipso facto_, that it cannot possible meet the *needs* of the CF â â€œ to tell the truth to the people of Canada.

I admit that several years in NDHQ induced a level of cynicism which I wish wasn't there but whenever I see/hear the CDS I assume that if his lips are moving he is reading a script which probably bears little relations to any facts of any matter.   My descent into the depths of cynicism came when Maurice Baril â â€œ surely the worst very senior officer to ever wear a Canadian uniform â â€œ lied at a press conference and and read a script which blamed and debased his own air force people in order to provide a fig leaf's worth of cover for what was, wholly and completely, the wishes of that crooked, lazy old buffoon: Jean Chrétien.

The people of Canada are entitled to know what their armed forces are doing, how they are doing it and e.g. how much it costs.   These are, generally, *facts* which the Canadian Forces should â â€œ and should want to â â€œ provide: openly and accurately and completely.   Things like 'why' are not the business of the CF and the ministers and their spin doctors must be welcome to lie like sidewalks if that's what they think is necessary.   Uniformed military officers â â€œ even _public affairs_ officers â â€œ should not be involved in these propagandist shell games.

[/rant]


----------



## Peace_Keeper (29 Dec 2004)

If not now, when? In a disater case of deaths at 70 000 and a Disaster response team isn't being sent out, when should it be? never obviously, its a waste of the money it gets which isn't even enough to let it do it's job correctly.


----------



## Bograt (29 Dec 2004)

I had a "Family in-law"incident this weekend. My brother in law is an idiot. He made an off handed comment that the US was only sending 35 million dollars and we we sending 4 million.- based on a per capita calculation he insinuated that we were better people. I lost it. In front of my wife's family I said that he was a perfect example of everything wrong with our country.

I went on at length about the US contribution, including an carrier group and support aircraft, private donations and their leadership. I also mentioned that we Canadians couldn't do anything because we lack strategic airlift capability. I mentioned the hurricane relief in Dominican Republic- we didn't do anything because we couldn't get there. We think we are great contributors- we are mistakin. "You are an idiot, pass the gravy."


----------



## George Wallace (29 Dec 2004)

Peace_Keeper said:
			
		

> If not now, when? In a disater case of deaths at 70 000 and a Disaster response team isn't being sent out, when should it be? never obviously, its a waste of the money it gets which isn't even enough to let it do it's job correctly.



Brilliant!  And who wants us?  Somalia? India? Sri Lanca?  Indonesia?  Australia?  Look at the globe and the magnitude of this disaster and figure out where we are most needed.  We have nothing in DART that could handle enough to make any real difference.  We have no reliable means of getting it there.  We have not even got the personnel to deploy it at this time.  Wake the F------ up!

GW


----------



## canuck101 (29 Dec 2004)

The PM seems to be very quit at this moment.  He said he wanted to be known for his interest in international affairs so were is he.  If we can not contribute with the military we should be able to give more in money.


----------



## 48Highlander (29 Dec 2004)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Brilliant!  And who wants us?  Somalia? India? Sri Lanca?  Indonesia?  Australia?  Look at the globe and the magnitude of this disaster and figure out where we are most needed.  We have nothing in DART that could handle enough to make any real difference.  We have no reliable means of getting it there.  We have not even got the personnel to deploy it at this time.  Wake the F------ up!
> 
> GW



   You just proved his point.  If we have no reliable means to deploy it, and don't even have the personnel, then it IS a waste.  It's a half-assed feel-good political machine.  We can say "yep, we have an emergency response team in place" without ever actually using the damn thing.  I'm not saying it's a bad concept, but without the right funding, equipment, and peronnel, it's a waste.  Either get what's needed to make it usable, or scrap it and put the resources being used for it into other parts of the military.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (29 Dec 2004)

From a National Defence perspective, does it not make sense to have a fully-functioning air-deployable team to be used if there is a Canadian disaster (earthquake, WMD attack, etc.)?

Then, if it is deployed overseas (actually if any military asset is deployed overseas) as a foreign policy decision, it should be funded from the Foreign Affairs budget as opposed to the Department of Defence Budget.  The DND Budget should be for domestic operations including coastal surveillance, procurement, training, etc. only.




Matthew.


----------



## Bill Smy (29 Dec 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> A good point has been raised by the Govt: we haven't been asked. The most competent judge of what is required is not the Canadian media or various political snipers-it is the govt of the affected country who will ask for what they need.



pbi hit it on the head. And this note from India validates that.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041229/wl_sthasia_afp/asiaquakeindiaaidforeign_041229092823


----------



## Gunnar (29 Dec 2004)

Something from Uncle Lew on the subject...:

Cheques will have to do

by Lewis MacKenzie

Re: Cutting Cheques Is Not Enough, editorial, Dec. 28.

Your editorial rightly points out that the capabilities possessed by our Force's Disaster Assistance Response Team (DART) are ideally suited to the monumental disaster unfolding along the coastlines of Asia. The excuse offered by our government for not immediately deploying DART was that we have yet to receive a request for assistance from any of the devastated countries - but that is certainly not the real reason. The fact is we can't get DART there in a timely manner and to arrive woefully late would be an embarrassement. 

Devoid of any strategic lift of our own, we usually revert to renting dated Ukrainian Antonov aircraft to get our soldiers to another continent. Guess what? We now have a major disaster, and with everyone and his dog renting from the same source, the price has skyrocketed. 

What about our Hercules fleet? On a good day, about a dozen are operational. They are not strategic lift aircraft, however, and we have abused them by employing them in such a role to the extent that they are the most overworked and highest mileage fleet in the world. Send 10 to Asia and five will wind up grounded for maintenance. With a need for 30 flights to get DART to, say, Sri Lanka, that just won't cut it.

Cheques might not be enough, but unfortunately that's about all we can get to those who need our assistance.

Maj-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie, now retired, commanded UN troops during the Bosnian civil war of 1992.


----------



## Bert (29 Dec 2004)

Definitely Canada would be challenged to deploy a DART.  Before it can be done, as PBI and Bill have
pointed out, other factors have to be over come first before a DART deployment can be implemented.

The disaster occured in a masive shore-line region encompassing several countries.  Where should a DART be
deployed for the maximum effect?  It would have to be implemented in association with other
DART initiatives from other countries and organizations.  It takes time.  Intelligence from "on the spot" is
slow and communications from affected countries have not requested for Canadian personnel.  The problem
lies in co-ordinated activities that mostly lie outside of Canadian direction.


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin (30 Dec 2004)

I think the point is moot, as the DART cannot possibly deploy in the timeframe required to do the most good.  The ROWPUs are useful, but the Field Hospital is needed _immediately _ after a disaster, not within a few weeks.

Lew Mackenzie hit the nail on the head.  The problem, in the end, is with transport.  With ATHENA, the number of serviceable Hercs (and, just as important, available crews) is tiny - despite the number in the inventory.  We've run into the charter aircraft problem before - there are only so many Ukrainian and Russian Antonovs around.  Besides, as others have pointed out - you need permission to enter another country with assets - and a proper assessment of what's required.

I agree the DART is a waste of resources.  We tried to spring some crosscountry vehicles (can't remember the name) out of Kingston/Trenton storage for OP APOLLO and for PEREGRINE, but were told the DART was a higher priority... ???


----------



## KevinB (30 Dec 2004)

Teddy, the ARGO like vehicle? 
  Some clown in Trenton was probably golfing with them...


----------



## Teddy Ruxpin (30 Dec 2004)

KevinB:

Yeah that's the vehicle!  I saw photos of them all palletized for air movement in Trenton during the APOLLO ramp-up and just snapped!  Best they sit in a hanger awaiting events than be deployed on an operation... :


----------



## pbi (30 Dec 2004)

Hmmmmm. I have had an attack of conscience about what I said. Let me try again.

I don't like DART: no change.  But, I do like humanity. (OK-well...most of the time....)

I don't mean we should never help in an emergency: that would be stupid and selfish and would probably go against our traditions in several ways. The scale of human suffering we are seeing in SE Asia demands that we act. But, IMHO, act intelligently and appropriately.

What I DO mean is that if we are really needed, we can help out as a "military force", using military assets that we fund, retain and maintain for the other 97% of the time that we are not responsing to catastrophes. We should NOT keep any asset around as a purely humanitarian response, and I challenge the statement by one poster that "every country has a DART".  IMHO what is needed in a disaster like this one, which has in fact damged only a limited portion of each country's infrastructure, are money, materiel and competent aid, medical and technical people from civil organizations such as ICRC, MSF, etc whose job it is to do these things. The HUSAR team, formed by the heavy rescue squads of some big-city fire depts across Canada, comes to mind.

I have no quarrel with flying or sea-lifting these civil resources to the affected country, or to provide a Combat Engineer Sqn (which can have a ROWPU att to it...) or some other existing tactical element to assist if that is what the country says it needs. Fine. What I do not like nor agree with is keeping a "fenced -off" pile of expensive kit and dedicated task positions, as well as using scarce funds (better sent overseas in cash form) to create a small element that will have, truth be told, a pretty limited impact when it is deployed, then do nothing the rest of the year. Help, yes: DART, no. Cheers.


----------



## bossi (30 Dec 2004)

Taking into account the size of the disaster, our DART would be less than a drop in the bucket (pun intended).  And, as pointed out already, we don't even have the airlift to get it "there" (wherever that is).

Ironically, the advantage of being thusly hamstrung is that it's a failsafe mechanism preventing fools from rushing in ... (i.e. it's the biggest earthquake in 40 years, the death toll is rising daily ... maybe, just maybe, it might be a good idea to do a proper "estimate of the situation" ... and coordinate any and all international response ... ?)

I particularly like pbi's additional comments - purely on a philosophical level, it would make sense for the military to respond with military assets (e.g. engineer or medical).

Lastly, I can't help but snicker at this:


			
				canuck101 said:
			
		

> The PM seems to be very quit at this moment. He said he wanted to be known for his interest in international affairs so were is he ...



Canada's Prime Minister decided to spend his Christmas vacation in ... Morocco.
Also conspicuous by their absence from Canada are Pierre Pettigrew (Foreign Affairs) and the International Development minister.
Whankers.
Thus, the Minister of National Defence (formerly Foreign Affairs) is stuck fielding all the questions.


----------



## bossi (30 Dec 2004)

Hot off the press ... 
("... recognizance team ..." - as reported by the "B" team, I'd venture to say)

*$36M more in aid
FEDS CHANGE MIND AND ORDER ADVANCE DISASTER TEAM TO SRI LANKA*
By Maris McClintock and Brodie Fenlon, Toronto Sun, Thu, December 30, 2004 


AFTER DAYS of being called "stingy," the federal government pledged $36 million more in relief money yesterday for the devastated areas hit by the earthquake and tsunami. That brings the federal government's cash commitment to $40 million. 

The news of more cash relief was cautiously welcomed by Toronto's Tamil community, which is troubled by reports international aid is not reaching Tamil regions in northeast Sri Lanka due to government corruption. 

"Even with the increase in the aid we still will question if the Sri Lankan president is going to give any aid to the northeast," said Canadian Tamil Congress spokesman Tharsi Yoganathan. 

The congress met with nine Toronto-area MPs yesterday to press their demands for equal distribution of aid in their native country. 

FULL ACCOUNTING 

They demanded Ottawa provide a full accounting of how much Canadian aid reaches the northeast and want a bipartisan delegation of MPs to go there to witness first-hand the destruction and aid efforts. 

Defence Minister Bill Graham also announced a military recognizance team from the specialized Disaster Assistance Relief Team (DART) will head to Sri Lanka with federal government officials today -- after growing questions over why the government hadn't dispatched it to the area. 

The advance team will assess whether the full 200-member DART -- made up of a field hospital and engineers with water purification expertise -- should be deployed. The estimated price tag to move the massive unit is pegged at $15 million to $20 million. 

Graham denied the huge cash infusion and change of heart about the DART was due to mounting public pressure. On Tuesday, government officials said sending the squad was unnecessary. 

"We do not send it without first ascertaining whether or not it is going to be useful on the ground and that the countries can absorb it and use it," Graham said. 

"For the moment we've not been asked to provide the entire DART, and we wouldn't move it without having close co-ordination with those on the ground," he added. 

Although there have been reports that 13 Canadians have been killed, Graham said he couldn't confirm that information. 

SECOND PLANELOAD 

A second planeload of Canadian relief supplies is also being dispatched to Indonesia. A plane of supplies is already making its way to Sri Lanka. 

Graham said Prime Minister Paul Martin, who is on a family vacation in Morocco, is coming home early and is expected back on the weekend. 

Two other key cabinet ministers who have been absent in Ottawa since the disaster -- CIDA Minister Aileen Carroll and Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew -- are also cutting their vacations short to return to Canada. 

"The shocking human toll of the terrible disaster in South and Southeast Asia has moved Canadians across the country to do what they can to help," said Graham, reading a prepared statement from the prime minister. 

Martin has also been in touch with the respective heads of state of the affected countries to express his condolences, Graham said.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Dec 2004)

This is a letter to the editor in to-day's _Globe and Mail_ (see:  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentTPLetters/ )



> A big dart to DART
> --------
> By MICHAEL BYERS
> Canada Research Chair in Global Politics and International Law, University of British Columbia
> ...



I agree with Prof. Byers.

This is turning into a PR disaster for the government and, as collateral damage, the Canadian Forces.   _ Oh what a tangled web we weave_, etc ...â ?


----------



## gozonuts (30 Dec 2004)

It's disgusting to think that a country as rich as Canada can only afford 4 million dollars in relief funds for the sunami disaster, and yet is not shy to pump in billions of dollars to Quebec to keep them placated. Just my opinion.


----------



## RCA (30 Dec 2004)

What is disgusting is the second guessing and political games some play when the death toll is 116,000 and climbing. Come on people, lets keep the priorities straight. Even if the CF had the capability, would troops be on the way. Probably not yet.

DART is not the answer (as said before a drop in the bucket, and where does it go?), but having the Airbuses moving supplies and the money flowing to the region is. And $40 million whether given as a PR ex or genuine gesture is moot as it is the right thing to do as this juncture of the disaster.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (30 Dec 2004)

Bill Graham got flambeed last night on the CBC trying to defend the "we're just waiting to see if we're really going to be needed" argument.

The primary anchor was all over him in regards to his "inability to deploy".

This public embarrassment of the Liberal Party may be the only way we're ever going to get those C-17's I've been dreaming of....



Matthew.


----------



## pbi (30 Dec 2004)

> This public embarrassment of the Liberal Party may be the only way we're ever going to get those C-17's I've been dreaming of....



Roger that. If we are honest, we can probably point to a few good things that have occurred largely because of media embarassment. We may not like the media but their power can help us. Of course, this is not really the time to scheme to get more kit when 100,000 people are dead and more are dying.The 15-20 million to send the DART could be much better spent in other ways that would do more good, more widely. Cheers.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Dec 2004)

RCA said:
			
		

> What is disgusting is the second guessing and political games some play when the death toll is 116,000 and climbing. Come on people, lets keep the priorities straight. Even if the CF had the capability, would troops be on the way. Probably not yet.
> 
> DART is not the answer (as said before a drop in the bucket, and where does it go?), but having the Airbuses moving supplies and the money flowing to the region is. And $40 million whether given as a PR ex or genuine gesture is moot as it is the right thing to do as this juncture of the disaster.



Then please address Prof. Byers' point, and mine, too - if the DART's capabilities, as set out by DND (see: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=301 ) are not tailored for this situation then when in the name of all that holy _could_ the thing be used?

It may be a _drop in the bucket_ but it is a huge bucket and there are too few drops.

The simple fact is that DND created this thing as a PR exercise â â€œ to deflect public attention from real defence issues and that's all it is: useless, expensive window dressing.   *NDHQ is lying* to the Canadian public and they will get caught out and the CF â â€œ not the Minister and PM â â€œ will bear the brunt of the criticism.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Dec 2004)

Further to the above: I'll   bet some poor sad sack staff officer was tasked to rewrite that _Backgrounder_, just after ADM Communications (propaganda) read his morning paper.


----------



## ArmyRick (30 Dec 2004)

This is a slap in the face for the CF. I can see how the DART idea is back firing. Even if we wanted to deploy them, how would we move them? Disband DART and spend the $$$ on usefull military projects..


----------



## Acorn (30 Dec 2004)

While I agree with pbi and others on DART, I'd like to point out that "drop in the bucket" is not an excuse for not deploying. 

"We can only save about 10000 people with our hospital and water purification capability. The scale of this disaster is so far beyond that level that it isn't worth going and saving those 10000."

Like the "Brigade of 5000," DART is looking to be yet another hollow gov't gesture, offered by the Party that can certainly "talk the talk" but has yet to even take the first baby steps of "the walk."

Acorn


----------



## Bograt (30 Dec 2004)

Former MND Pratt is on CFRA now speaking about Canada's relief effort. 12:30 EST

www.cfra.com


----------



## bossi (30 Dec 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> Roger that. If we are honest, we can probably point to a few good things that have occurred largely because of media embarassment. We may not like the media but their power can help us.



We'll soon see cabinet erupting like a hornet's nest ... 
Now that more and more vacationing Canadians are returning to work and asking "who was on duty while the PM and certain cabinet ministers were vacationing outside the continent?" (hmmm ... wouldn't it be amusing to ask if cabinet had a "leave plan" like most Army units ... ?)

And once again, from the perspective of civilian emergency management, there's nothing like a slap in the face from the media to galvanise government into action (and remember - the Liberals only have a minority government, thus they can't afford to lose the votes of all those Canadian voters recently arrived from this corner of the globe ...).  Cynical?  No.  It's the hard reality of politics - very few politicians are trained or educated to deal with real disasters (kinda analogous to wars ...).

Ministers' absence draws fire
By Gloria Galloway, Thursday, December 30, 2004 - The Globe and Mail

OTTAWA -- The two federal ministers in charge of co-ordinating Canada's response to the devastation caused by Sunday's tsunamis had their vacations cut short yesterday after questions were raised about their prolonged absence at a time of crisis.

Foreign Affairs Minister Pierre Pettigrew and International Co-operation Minister Aileen Carroll continued their holidays outside Canada after tsunamis smashed into 12 nations and left as many as 70 Canadians missing. 

Their aides would not disclose their vacation destinations, but Mr. Pettigrew is believed to have been in Paris while Ms. Carroll is believed to have been on a trip to South America with her family. 

Both trips ended after members of the news media placed calls yesterday morning to the office of Prime Minister Paul Martin, who is on vacation in Morocco, to ask who was handling the crisis.

Early in the day, France Bureau, a spokeswoman for Ms. Carroll, explained the minister had been in regular contact with members of her department and that there were no plans at that time for her to return.

"We discussed [an early return] yesterday, we discussed it the day before," she said. "For now we have been able to bring her up to speed and inform her of what's going on . . . as well as what her counterparts are able to do."

Ms. Carroll understands the magnitude of the situation, Ms. Bureau said, and "she wants to come back when the time is appropriate if there is a need here."

The Prime Minister's Office called reporters a short time later to say that Ms. Carroll and Mr. Pettigrew would be returning to Canada. 

Mr. Pettigrew's spokesman, Sébastien Théberge, said the Foreign Affairs Minister decided to return on his own. "Due to the current situation in South and Southeast Asia, Minister Pettigrew has cancelled his holidays," Mr. Théberge said in an e-mail. "Minister Pettigrew has been involved from the first hour on how Canada [will] respond to the current disaster and relief efforts," Mr. Théberge wrote. 

Conservative Leader Stephen Harper was critical of the ministers' absence. "Here we have the single biggest humanitarian disaster of our lifetimes and the government has basically been AWOL. And it's not any particular person being on vacation. It's that nobody seems to have been really engaged. And that's a concern," he said.

"This is a huge international humanitarian disaster but there also are a significant number of Canadians involved. It isn't just something going on in foreign countries."

Defence Minister Bill Graham has been on hand to act as government spokesman. He announced yesterday, on behalf of the Prime Minister, an increase in funding for the affected regions. He was asked several times about his missing colleagues.

"They have been in constant contact with their offices through their officials throughout this," Mr. Graham said. "They have decided it's appropriate to come back now . . . as we continue our efforts.

Mr. Martin, who issued a statement about the crisis yesterday, will return to Canada Saturday -- two days sooner than planned.


----------



## bossi (30 Dec 2004)

pbi said:
			
		

> ...The 15-20 million to send the DART could be much better spent in other ways that would do more good, more widely. Cheers.



There's another thread on the topic of this disaster, and in it there's a link to a CTV news item about a Canadian pilot who took some pix of the shock wave.

Buried in the article is mention that the Hilton and other resorts in the Maldives are self-sufficient, and functioning reasonably well - he also mentions picking up VIPs ...

So, if there's already some small oasis functioning in the disaster area, but catering only to rich, foreign tourists ... wouldn't it make more sense for the host nation governments to ask them for their cooperation first, before flying junk from halfway around the world ... ?  Hotels and resorts already have lots of beds, just like hospitals ... and they're already in situ - why on Earth would Canada waste money flying cots and blankets over there, if medicine were a higher priority ... ? (an arbitrary example, but trying to get everybody to focus on the logistical considerations vice visceral reactions ...)


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (30 Dec 2004)

Just a cut & paste of the DART backgrounder.....before they rewrite it.     ;D

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Backgrounder
Canadian Forces Disaster Assistance Response Team
BG-99-051E - September 10, 2004

Background 
The Canadian government has consistently demonstrated strong support for humanitarian assistance and disaster-relief operations throughout the world. Nationally and internationally, the Canadian Forces (CF) has deployed to disaster-struck regions to conduct humanitarian relief operations. International missions since 1990 include relief operations in Rwanda, Haiti, Honduras and Turkey. 

In 1994, the CF deployed 2 Field Ambulance to Rwanda to provide medical relief to the refugees suffering from the many ill effects of the conflict in that country. Despite the best efforts of all concerned, the relief effort arrived after the peak of a cholera epidemic that brought great suffering. This experience convinced the Canadian government of the need to create a rapid-response capability to provide effective humanitarian aid. The concept of the CF Disaster Assistance Response Team (DART) was born. 

Operational criteria 
The DART is a military organization designed to deploy rapidly anywhere in the world to crises ranging from natural disasters to complex humanitarian emergencies. The DART: 

responds rapidly, in conjunction with national and regional governments and non-governmental agencies, to stabilize the primary effects of an emergency or disaster; 

provides potable water and medical aid to help prevent the rapid onset of secondary effects of a disaster; and 

gains time for the deployment of national and international humanitarian aid to facilitate long-term recovery in a disaster-struck community. 

Mission capabilities 
Comprising about 200 CF personnel ready to deploy quickly to conduct emergency relief operations for up to 40 days, the DART can bridge the gap until members of the international community arrive to provide long-term help. The DART is designed to deploy only to permissive environments â â€ that is, locations where it will not encounter any organized resistance or threat. 

For international missions, the DART can be activated by a request from either an individual country or from the United Nations (UN). Regardless of the source of the request, the final decision to deploy the DART rests with the Canadian government, based on advice from Foreign Affairs Canada, the Department of National Defence, and the Canadian International Development Agency. 

In a UN operation, the DART is required to co-ordinate its work with the UN-appointed humanitarian co-ordinator. The DART also co-operates with international agencies on site to achieve the maximum positive impact. 

The DART serves four critical needs in emergencies, namely: 

primary medical care; 

production of safe drinking water; 

a limited specialist engineer capability; and 

a command and control structure that allows for effective communications between the DART, the host nation, and the other agencies involved in the relief effort, including international 0rganizations, non-governmental organizations and UN aid agencies. 

Many domestic and international organizations are committed full-time to the relief of pain and suffering. The DART complements these organizations; it does not compete with them. 

DART composition 
The DART is composed of highly trained military personnel drawn mostly from Land Force units. It comprises the following main elements: 

DART Headquarters , consisting of about 45 personnel drawn mainly from the Canadian Forces Joint Headquarters and the Canadian Forces Joint Signal Regiment, both based in Kingston, Ontario. DART Headquarters is responsible for command and control in theatre, and for the strategic-level liaison required to determine and co-ordinate the DART's humanitarian response with the governments of Canada and the host nation, and officials of international organizations and non-government organizations operating in theatre. 

A logistics platoon of about 20 personnel, responsible for the logistical support services essential to the sustainment of the DART, such as maintenance, transport and movements control, supply, procurement and contracting, and food services.

The headquarters of the various DART sub-units deployed on the mission, each comprising about nine personnel, to co-ordinate on-site tasking priorities and provide a command capability for split operations when required. These headquarters provide the day-to-day command and control of the following DART sub-units: 

An engineer troop of about 37 personnel, including both field and construction engineers. The field engineer element consists of a water supply section, a field engineer section and a heavy equipment section. The construction engineer element provides limited construction and utility services. The engineer troop produces bulk and bagged water from its Canadian-built Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit (ROWPU), which can produce up to 50,000 litres of potable water per day for use by the medical aid station and for distribution to disaster victims. Once it has completed the DART camp â â€ an austere facility â â€ the engineer troop can take on other tasks in support of the host nation and humanitarian aid agencies. 

A medical platoon of approximately 40 personnel to operate a small medical aid station, a tented facility capable of providing care for 200 to 250 out-patients and 10 in-patients per day, depending on the their needs. The medical aid station currently includes a laboratory, a pharmacy, limited obstetrics services, and rehydration and preventive medicine sections; it has no surgical or trauma-care capabilities. The medical platoon provides treatment of minor injuries, disease control and routine health care services to relieve the host nation's medical facilities of these responsibilities. 

A defence and security platoon of about 45 personnel to provide camp security and general support for DART operations. 

Conclusion 
Canada is an important provider of international humanitarian assistance and emergency relief. The creation of the DART enhanced the federal government's ability to meet both domestic and international requests for aid, and it demonstrates Canada's resolve to support disaster victims anywhere in the world. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


----------



## Shec (30 Dec 2004)

Of course Critics question Canada's reluctance to dispatch disaster-response unit , thats why they are critics.     But really how meaningful is their criticism?   And just how uncontrollably are their knees jerking?     Canada has pledged $40MM to date, Ontario $5MM + BC $8MM.   That's $53MM in public funds to date + whatever else is raised in the way of private donations from individual Canadians.   We are hardly sitting idly by.   And aren't the aid agencies saying cash is best?   So we as Canadians have nothing to be ashamed of relative to our response to this disaster.   

Furthermore, as pbi, George Wallace, and others point out DART has not been requested yet.   Isn't it even a little racist of us to presume that 200 troops are going to race across half the globe to rescue those millions of victims who are suffering in countries like India, Thailand, and Indonesia with their dynamic economies and larger (and probably better equipped) armed forces?

So for our purposes the real issue here,   as already referenced,   is the need for strategic airlift capability so we can get troops from A to B, whether they are members of an expeditionary force, a DART or any other unit.   

Forgive my rant but I for one am getting a little tired of the media laying this sensationalist, negative, collective guilt trip on us.   Besides, this is just the beginning of the relief, reconstruction, and rehabilitation effort.   So perhaps a little more constructive forward thinking and planning should be the order of the day rather than expecting Cabinet to react from the gut.   And that might not happen effectively if media fatigue sets in as the critics persist in flogging this horse.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (30 Dec 2004)

True or false....if you are resident of a mid-sized town on the coast of Indonesia, had just lost everything, and you and your young family had a choice between drinking well water filled with raw sewage and decomposing human remains, how much would you appreciate the DART team showing up with a water purification system?

I'm sorry but you have to do what you can to help, and if we can make even one town a little better off during such a crisis, then we should absolutely commit what we can.



Matthew.     :


----------



## Shec (30 Dec 2004)

With all due respect you just demonstrated my point about a knee-jerk and gut reaction.     Sure a DART type team would be welcome, presuming:

1.   They were invited
2.   They could get here.

But neither of those conditions have occured,   for whatever reason.     So the real issue is what is the next, realistic, meaningful, and achieveable course of action?   And that is what I mean by constructive forward thinking.   

We are sending over in excess of $53 Million at this point.   Neither of us are there to put to good use those financial resources we are furnishing.   There are professionals already in situ who can.   Let them do their jobs. They will ask for what kind of help they need and when they need it.


----------



## Bograt (30 Dec 2004)

I am amazed how quickly the Israelis were on the scene with their teams and supplies. I think it was within 18 hours?

This is not an example of political expediency/prudence. It is an illustration of political failure and unfortunately/fortuately showcases our weakness in strategic airlift.

We couldn't go to Dominican Republic. We can't go to Sumatra. DART is like my grandmother's living room furniture- looks great but for goodness sake don't use it.


----------



## Bert (30 Dec 2004)

I think Shec cut to the chase.

Debating DART and the Canadian response is irrelevant.   Its not the "what to do"
that is in question, its the command and control and the HOW to do it.   This
disaster out-scales relief experiences. 

The initial response from the world was communicating with respective governments
and asking questions that have no immediate answers.   Relief agencies have to
co-ordinate their activities and figure out the story on the ground.   Governments
are not gifted relief agencies and require input from affected countries and the
relief agencies.   Relief then becomes as an assortment of individual efforts rather than
a co-ordinated action to manage the entire region.   This wastes time.

I figure this will be a "lesson learned" and perhaps through the UN, a method
of global relief response will be formulated to increase efficiency, gather
intelligence quickly, provide materials, and maximize response time for the next occasion.


----------



## Edward Campbell (30 Dec 2004)

I don't think the logistical difficulties matter any more â â€œ even less important are the diplomatic niceties of _â ?We invite your DARTâ ? â â€œ â Å“Oh, thanks awfully, we accept the invitation and we'll be right along.â ?_.

What has happened is that the government fumbled this ball.

Someone said: â Å“Hey! Are we sending the DART?â ?

The correct, honest answer would have been: â Å“No.   Not now, anyway.   We don't know, yet, where it could or should go â â€œ where can it land and set up and then be useful?   We'll wait a few days until we know more â â€œ maybe someone will ask for it, maybe only for part of it. We don't have enough airlift to move all of it quickly.   It will be better to wait a short while and do it right ... etc, etc, etc.â ?

The answers (too many answers) given sounded like excuses.   The press may not be chock-a-block full of really bright, switched on folks but neither is it full of dunderheads.   The role of the journalist is to fill the white spaces between the adverts â â€œ preferably with 'news,' something controversial.   Journalists can smell excuses and the excuses that came out of the various Gov't of Canada spin doctors sounded like a cover-up, that means one can _create_ controversy.   Dragging poor Colonel Laroche and some frazzled junior diplomat out to talk about _not the right tool_ made matters worse.

The Gov't of Canada looks bad â â€œ it looks inept, it looks disorganized, it looks dishonest.   The cabinet does not like to look bad â â€œ someone is, always, made to pay.

Who?

Jean Chrétien is gone, Paul Martin is the guy who cut and cut and cut again until he had slashed away DND's muscle and bone (and brains and guts, too, in NDHQ).

We used to say that there were seven stages to *all* major public projects:

1.	Initial enthusiasm

2.	Disillusionment

3.	Panic

4.	Search for the guilty

5.	Punishment of the innocent

6.	Honours and awards for senior non-participanrs

7.	Destruction of all useful documents

Watch for 4 to begin as soon as Martin's Chief of Staff is home from his holidays; watch for DND to be the _innocent_ in 5.


----------



## Shec (30 Dec 2004)

Bograt said:
			
		

> I am amazed how quickly the Israelis were on the scene with their teams and supplies. I think it was within 18 hours?
> 
> This is not an example of political expediency/prudence. It is an illustration of political failure and unfortunately/fortuately showcases our weakness in strategic airlift.



And it is a possible lesson from which we can learn to address our weakness in strategic airlift.  According to the mainstream Israeli press - Jerusalem Post, Maariv, and Haaretz - national commercial airline EL AL Boeing 747s were used, not the smaller IAF Boeing 707s.

Several countries, including the USA, pay flag-carrying commercial airlines an annual retainer to make available for charter long range aircraft to supplement military fleets as and when needed.   This is clearly what the Israelis have done.     

If it doesn't already exist (perhaps it does) is this something we should consider?


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (30 Dec 2004)

Shec said:
			
		

> With all due respect you just demonstrated my point about a knee-jerk and gut reaction.     Sure a DART type team would be welcome, presuming:
> 
> 1.   They were invited
> 2.   They could get here.
> ...



So you're trying to tell me if the PM said on December 26/27: "Hey we've got a rapid-response team specializing in disaster relief that includes a water purification system, some engineers, some logistical specialists and their own security detail that we can have there in 48 hours" that the countries affected wouldn't be begging for it?

Regardless of the political issues in the background, the "We weren't invited" argument is about the most disengenuous excuse I have ever heard.   

Total, total BS.....




Matthew.


----------



## Shec (30 Dec 2004)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> So you're trying to tell me if the PM said on December 26/27: "Hey we've got a rapid-response team specializing in disaster relief that includes a water purification system, some engineers, some logistical specialists and their own security detail that we can have there in 48 hours" that the countries affected wouldn't be begging for it?
> 
> Regardless of the political issues in the background, the "We weren't invited" argument is about the most disengenuous excuse I have ever heard.
> 
> ...



If, if, if.   Did the PM say that?


----------



## Sheerin (30 Dec 2004)

Maybe the affected governments knows (or more likely the US has told them) that we cannot get the DART to there and as such hasn't asked for it?


----------



## bossi (31 Dec 2004)

I saw a news report with summaries of the death toll - at that time, it was 80,000 in Indonesia, a bunch in India, Sri Lanka and Thailand.

If you're into conspiracy theories - I suspect that Liberal party pollsters are trying to determine where to deploy the DART in terms of how many votes it will buy - it's all about politics, vice genuine humanitarian needs ... (i.e. I'd be curious to know what the Canadian census reports vis-a-vis hyphenated Canadians from the affected countries).

And, as if my magic ... here's what the CBC is reporting:
Full Story - Ottawa opens doors to immigrants from tsunami-hit areas

Last Updated Thu, 30 Dec 2004 22:19:08 EST 
OTTAWA - Canada will speed up its handling of immigration requests from people in tsunami-stricken areas of Asia who have close relatives in this country, Immigration Minister Judy Sgro said Thursday. 

Sgro said her department will expedite immigration paperwork for spouses, common-law partners and children from countries such as Indonesia and Sri Lanka if their applications are already in the system.


----------



## Big Foot (31 Dec 2004)

i think Sri Lanka asked for it and we're looking at deploying DART. i mean honestly, will people ever give the CF a break?


----------



## bossi (31 Dec 2004)

Big Foot said:
			
		

> i think Sri Lanka asked for it and we're looking at deploying DART...



Yup - and I finally found the 1996 and 2001 census data (accompanied by the latest stats from CBC):

India - 235,930 -- 314,690 (death toll has hit 11,330 with many thousands still missing)
Sri Lanka - 67,420 -- 87,305   (27,000 people are now confirmed dead with nearly 5,000 still missing)
Malaysia 19,465 -- 20,420 (66 people were killed in Malaysia, mostly on Penang Island)
Indonesia - 8,520 -- 9,375 (tsunami death toll 80,000 and rising) 
Thailand -   7,710 -- 8,130 (confirmed 2,400 deaths from the tsunami, among them over 700 foreign tourists, with another 6,000 people missing and feared dead)

So, in the grand scheme of things ... it would seem to make sense to send Canada's DART to Sri Lanka, for both humanitarian and political reasons.


----------



## Spr.Earl (31 Dec 2004)

At the mo we do the AEF Militia (air field engineer units) most are all ex reg Inf.,Eng,Arty,who remusterd to Engineering trades and may be available.

I know I have close on 3 months of leave from my Civie Job but have not been called from 4 AES.
(Global Responce)

I'll go right now,it's we need man power on the ground !!!
Thats what is lacking is Man power and organisation!!

Man power to dig and recover and at the same time give a sense of normalcy too the locals as some here can prove.

Oh I forgot we lost a few $$ on some scam!!!?

I have family in the far east and I do know how the other half lives.


----------



## Gunner (31 Dec 2004)

Jesus, it's not rocket science.  Deploying the DART would cripple the CF for months for very limited gains.  The DART is of limited capability and the only thing we would achieve would be to pat ourselves on the back for being "Canadian".  We are much better off sending money.  Like I said before, where would you deploy it?

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/operations/DART/back_e.asp

195 people consisting of: DART headquarters company, the engineer troop, the medical platoon, the defence and security platoon, and the logistics platoon are drawn mostly from Land Force Command units. 



> The engineer troop, about 40 personnel, includes both field and construction engineers. The field engineer element consists of a water supply section, a field engineer section and a heavy equipment section. The construction engineer element provides limited vertical construction and utilities capabilities. The engineer troop produces bulk and bagged water from its Canadian-built Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit with an approximate 100,000-litres-a-day production capacity. The troop provides water for the medical aid station and for distribution to victims of the disaster. Once the DART's austere camp is established, the engineering troop can also undertake other basic construction and engineer tasks in support of the host nation and humanitarian aid agencies, as required.





> The medical platoon staffs a medical aid station of approximately 45 personnel. This tented facility is capable of providing care for 200 to 250 outpatients and 30 inpatients daily, depending on the severity of injuries. There are also laboratory, pharmacy, rehydration, obstetrics, and preventive medicine sections. There is no surgical or trauma capability.





> A defence and security platoon of about 35 personnel is staffed and equipped to conduct security and general labour operations for the DART.  The logistics platoon, approximately 20 personnel, is responsible for virtually all DART support services in theatre, such as maintenance, transport and supply. These are functions vital to the sustainment of the DART.



Now, if you are going to argue what we should have...maybe I might agree with you.


----------



## Bograt (31 Dec 2004)

DART mission to region carried too many risks
 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20041231/TSDARTS31/TPFront/TopStories
By STEVEN CHASE AND BRIAN LAGHI
Friday, December 31, 2004 - Page A1 

OTTAWA -- *Senior Canadian officials discussed sending the military's embattled Disaster Assistance Response Team to tsunami-ravaged Asia at a high-level meeting Wednesday but unanimously rejected it because of concern about cost effectiveness and danger to the troops.*

The interdepartmental meeting, which included top Canadian diplomats in Southeast Asia, discussed the tsunami disaster and worries about political unrest in Indonesia. 

"The major players sitting around the big table were all convinced to the best of their knowledge . . . that DART is not particularly the best suited to be deployed," the source said of the meeting, which included about 60 people from more than seven departments and agencies as well as the* Prime Minister's Office*.

"In the case of Sumatra and the Banda Aceh area [of Indonesia], it's not a safe area: This has been an insurrectional area and a military-controlled area by the government since 1976," the source said. "It's unstable at best."

*"Is [DART] adaptable to that kind of environment? No one is convinced," *the source said.

Canada's hesitancy to deploy DART to disaster-stricken Asia has critics questioning how well prepared and adequately funded the military unit really is for tackling foreign crises. It was formed in 1996, amid great fanfare, as a means of responding rapidly to disasters. 

But the team's last mission was more than half a decade ago, in 1999, and its last full-scale practice exercise was in 2001.

DART's annual budget is just $250,000 -- not including deployment costs -- and the group has only 15 full-time staff. The rest of the team's 200 positions are filled by designated on-call staff elsewhere in the military.

The team has no dedicated aircraft and must depend on Ottawa and the cash-strapped Department of National Defence to find it transport.

DART is not able to say how long it would take to get a team to Asia, and a spokesman said that would depend on how fast it could get aircraft. 

Under fire for keeping DART on the bench, the federal Liberal government yesterday dispatched a reconnaissance team to Sri Lanka, one of the countries hardest hit, to see if the unit might be needed there. The group included nine DART officials.

*Critics say they fear the real reason for the foot-dragging is a lack of resources in the country's cash-strapped military. "Is this not the greatest human tragedy of a natural disaster that we have had in who knows how many hundreds of years?"* asked Professor David Bercuson, director of the Centre for Military and Strategic Studies at the University of Calgary.

"If the [DART] team had been there and deployable, and the air transport was ready, surely to God this caring nation of ours would have sent them."

The decision to set up DART was made in the wake of an international failure in 1994 to get timely medical assistance to Rwandan refugees during a cholera outbreak. It has deployed only twice in its history, the last time to earthquake-rocked Turkey in 1999.

The 200-member DART team includes medical staff, security officers and engineers. They can set up field hospitals and water purification services in disaster areas as well as repair basic infrastructure and communications.

Since 2001 it has also practised assembling all DART personnel on short notice at its Trenton, Ont., military takeoff site.

After the federal government orders DART into action, team members would have 48 hours to assemble for departure from 8 Wing Trenton, where the group's supplies are also warehoused. There are 200 staff on call as well as an unspecified number of backup troops.

The 15 full-time DART staff work in Canadian Forces offices in Kingston and at DART's site in Trenton. The vast majority of the full 200-member team would come from Canadian Forces Base Petawawa if an order to deploy came today.

Retired Major-General Lewis MacKenzie said Ottawa must send the DART unit.

"If you have it, and it's for disaster -- and now we have the biggest one in my lifetime -- then surely it's time to deploy it," he said.

Gen. MacKenzie suggested Ottawa's delay in sending DART is partly because it's scrambling to find scarce air-transport resources to move the team there.

"They're probably frantically looking for [air] lift in order to get it there, and a lot of lift is being used up these days."

Some critics suggest DART exists more on paper than as a dedicated unit, as more of a contingency plan to pull together staff from the already stretched ranks of Canada's armed forces.

"It's like a volunteer fire brigade," said Scott Taylor, a former soldier and editor of Esprit de Corps magazine.

"They got a lot of mileage making it sound like these guys are sitting there with their jumpsuits on, ready to deploy -- but they are not."

------------------------------------
My Comments-

*It takes over 60 civilian staff and the PMO to decide to send DART*
A couple of points-
1. So we weren't waiting for an invitation?
2. It takes 60 civilian staff and the PMO to decide to deploy?- amd not the PM or MND?

*"Is [DART] adaptable to that kind of environment? No one is convinced," *
1. Shouldn't they of asked DND?
2. They don't know DARTS capabilities?


----------



## Edward Campbell (31 Dec 2004)

bossi said:
			
		

> ... I suspect that Liberal party pollsters are trying to determine where to deploy the DART in terms of how many votes it will buy - it's all about politics, vice genuine humanitarian needs ...



And ... as if by magic: the Toronto caucus of the Liberal Party has a _*secret*_ teleconference to get the politics right.   (Secret? Really? And it's in the _Post_ the next morning?   I hope none of these clowns are in charge of CSE ... whoops: that dandified limousine liberal Bill Graham is the minister responsible ...)

The Liberals are, as normal, trying to get the politics straight before Canada does anything rash, like take action to help prevent further deaths and alleviate suffering.   The Toronto caucus, a lot of unreconstructed _Chrétienistas_ there, could not resist a bit of Bush-bashing and, being Liberals, they had to assess the impact on the ethnic vote.

<sarcasm> I'm really, really glad the Liberals are the _natural governing party_; they're such a class act.
 </sarcasm>

From this morning's _National Post_ (http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=769d6ef7-dfa9-462f-b323-82aadfd79b2c   ):



> Quit sniping at Bush, Liberal MPs told
> Private conference call: One MP wary of U.S. coalition to help tsunami victims
> Robert Fife
> CanWest News Service
> ...


----------



## Bograt (31 Dec 2004)

LOL

Can you imagine if these yahoos were on the Titanic?

*PMO:* "Perhaps we should poll Canadians to determine if they support the 'Women and Children' first concept"
*MP Maria Minna *: It is those darn Americans. They are somehow responsible for causing the circumstances that promote iceburgs in the North Atlantic.
*Ms. Carrol* What ever happens I must make the announcement to man the lifeboats!
*MND* We will cooperate with the Americans, only at the PM orders.

glug glug glug glug glug glug glug glug


----------



## Edward Campbell (31 Dec 2004)

This is extracted from the _Globe and Mail_ web site at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041231.wtsun1231/BNStory/International/   (Emphasis added)



> The United States, India, Australia, Japan and the UN have formed an international coalition to co-ordinate worldwide relief and reconstruction efforts. The Indian navy, which has already deployed 32 ships and 29 aircraft for tsunami relief and rescue work, was sending two more ships Friday to Indonesia.
> 
> Canada is also joining the coalition. Prime Minister Paul Martin committed Canada to the group in a telephone conversation early Friday with U.S. President George W. Bush.
> 
> ...



As reported earlier, in the _National Post_: â Å“Ms. Minna, a former Chretien minister, then lashed out at President Bush for setting up a four-nation coalition with Indian, Japan and Australia to help the victims.â ?   I guess she's now another unhappy Liberal ...


----------



## JasonH (1 Jan 2005)

Canada readies DART team for deployment to Asia
CTV.ca News Staff

Canada's military response team has been put on 48-hour notice to be sent to help South Asia cope with the killer earthquake and tsunamis.

Orders were issued Friday to the 200 members of the Disaster Assistance Response Team (DART), Brig.-Gen. Brett Cairns said.

DART offers services such as water purification, mobile field hospitals, command and control centres and some reconstruction.

"Right now one of the main areas of focus (in the disaster) is the water purification,'' Cairns said. DART can provide 50,000 litres of pure water a day.

DART was created in 1996, but hasn't been deployed in five years. It requires 24 Hercules aircraft to deploy the team. Some officials have said DART's unwieldy nature is the reason why it hasn't been deployed.

Meanwhile, the first Canadian military plane carrying 30 tons of relief supplies touched down in the Sri Lankan capital of Colombo on Friday.

The plane landed as Prime Minister Paul Martin pledged Canada's commitment to a coalition of developed countries working to deliver aid to tsunami-ravaged Asia in a telephone conversation with U.S. President George Bush on Friday.

Its cargo included water purification tablets and plastic sheeting for temporary shelter.

Another plane is scheduled to leave on Saturday and will arrive in Asia on Sunday. On board is a 17-member team of Canadian defence, foreign affairs and health experts who will assess how best to disperse Canadian aid funds.

Prime Minister Paul Martin told Indonesia's President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono on Friday that Indonesia can count on the all Canadian aid it needs. Indonesia accounts for almost two-thirds of the 120,000 deaths estimated so far.

Martin also said Canada's $40 million aid commitment is only the beginning.

Ottawa will also match cash donations by Canadians dollar-for-dollar until January 11, which may push aid pledges much higher. Canadians have already donated $32 million to the major relief organizations, although that includes some corporate donations.

Canada is also delaying debt repayment for the hardest-hit Asian countries.

"In this way we will address not only the immediate crisis, but also provide significant support in helping the rebuilding efforts of these countries," Finance Minister Ralph Goodale said Thursday.

Recent large international aid pledges, including a $350 million US one from the Unitee States, have pushed the total past $1.2 billion US. But UN Secretary Kofi Annan said billions were needed to make a long-term impact in the affected regions.

Enough help for Canadians? 

While Canadian aid is beginning to arrive, there still appears to be little help for Canadians abroad.

Mike Lang told CTV Newsnet in a telephone interview from Thailand there should be more Canadian officials on the ground helping to search for missing relatives and friends.

Lang has been searching for his girlfriend since a magnitude-9.0 earthquake set off numerous tsunamis across Asia and left more than 120,000 dead.

He says he has been looking in hospitals across Thailand -- but without any assistance from Canadian officials.

"It's been difficult because everywhere I go I feel like I need some help and I don't feel like the Canadian government is there right now," Lang said.

"Right now I'm basically looking at bodies and trying to locate my girlfriend and I feel like I'm Canada's lone forensic expert here."

James Fox, of Foreign Affairs Canada rebuffed these claims and maintained that Canadian mission workers were working on the frontlines "day and night."

"We have sent reinforcements from the very beginning both to Sri Lanka and Thailand," he said in a news conference Friday.

But Lang said he has seen French and Israel forensic teams, but no Canadian ones.

With files from Associated Press and Canadian Press

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1104510057506_33/?hub=CTVNewsAt11


----------



## Peace_Keeper (1 Jan 2005)

haha finally, but who didn't see that coming....people were complaining and getting mad....Martin won't risk it....so give em what they want to see.....


----------



## medicineman (1 Jan 2005)

They haven`t left yet - I`ve lost count how many times thy`ve been stood to in the last little while and had no movement.  Having said that, they`ll likely move in some shape or form this time (at least to Trrenton anyway, hehe).

MM


----------



## FSTO (1 Jan 2005)

I usually think that after each government embarrasment that things will finally change.  Not bloody likely.


----------



## PViddy (1 Jan 2005)

Do we even have 24 Herc's ?  :-\ :-[  Hopefully they send over DART, they need all the help they can get over there.

PV


----------



## Laps (1 Jan 2005)

PViddy,

I don't think they will go by Herc.  That about only worked when they went to Honduras.  It is not necessarily 24 Hercs as much as 24 Herc trips, and either way, this is not going to happen.  I assume they will call the Antonov moving company from Ukraine like we did back for the earthquake in Turkey back a couple of years ago.


----------



## PViddy (1 Jan 2005)

I should have rented an Antonov for New Years eve!   


PV


----------



## Sheerin (1 Jan 2005)

I thought they ruled out the Antonov since it would cost upwards of 12 million dollars to lease?


----------



## McG (1 Jan 2005)

> *DART mission to region carried too many risks*
> By STEVEN CHASE and BRIAN LAGHI
> From Friday's Globe and Mail
> 31 Dec 2004
> ...


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041231.wxdart31/BNStory/Front


----------



## 291er (1 Jan 2005)

There is an emergency meeting called by the PM scheduled tomorrow.  I would expect that he will announce the DART will be deployed in the very very near future then.  Don't believe me, check out my unit in my profile!


----------



## bossi (1 Jan 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> Yup - and I finally found the 1996 and 2001 census data (accompanied by the latest stats from CBC):
> 
> India - 235,930 -- 314,690 (death toll has hit 11,330 with many thousands still missing)
> Sri Lanka - 67,420 -- 87,305   (27,000 people are now confirmed dead with nearly 5,000 still missing)
> ...



Now I remember my other triain of thought ...
Somebody else contrasted the tsunami death toll with the number of people killed on September 11th.
Okay - in keeping with my conspiracy theory (... and the relative value of human life to Liberal party pollsters ...)

Does anybody remember the approximate death count from Rwanda ... ?  How many hundred thousand ... ?
The census doesn't specify how many voters we have of Rwandan origin, but once again I suspect the Liberal party pollsters similarly figured a Canadian vote to Rwanda wouldn't have garnered any appreciable number of votes or international trade ...


> (Other Central and Southern Africa: 1996 - 7,805 --- 2001 - 13,525)


----------



## Art Johnson (2 Jan 2005)

Hi Marc keep plugging away mate your going to end up a L/Cpl the way you are going (LOL) . I'm in Florida for the winter and on a local radio talk show this morning the host was revueing Far East disasters. I don't remember the date but I believe it was within the last 10 years and he said that a cyclone that hit Bangladesh caused in excess of 300,000 deaths. This entire debacle is turning into a huge political mess and our government is milking it for all that it is worth.

Aye Dileas


----------



## The_Falcon (2 Jan 2005)

Saturdays Toronto Sun




> Sat, January 1, 2005
> 
> DART misses obvious bull's-eye
> 
> ...



Just more comments from a journalist whom I am starting to lose some respect for.  I mean the swipe at JTF2 (one of his many) was not necessary for the story.  Anyone up for a side topic of what exactly is Worthington's problem with JTF2?


----------



## PViddy (2 Jan 2005)

Just watching the PM's new conferance on CBC now.  Looks like the DART team will eventually be going, don't know how there gettin there but regardless.


PV


----------



## Sh0rtbUs (3 Jan 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> Now I remember my other triain of thought ...
> Somebody else contrasted the tsunami death toll with the number of people killed on September 11th.
> Okay - in keeping with my conspiracy theory (... and the relative value of human life to Liberal party pollsters ...)
> 
> ...



I believe somewheres up around 800,000 Killed throughout the entire Genocide.


----------



## sdimock (3 Jan 2005)

Canada sending DART

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/01/03/dart-050103.html


----------



## armybuck041 (3 Jan 2005)

Off they go.....

Members of the Advance Party from the 200+ DART contingent here in Petawawa are off to Trenton tommorrow.

I don't care about the number of Herc's required, political appeasement, the cost, or anything else......

What pisses me off, is that more of my friends, some of whom got back from Athena Roto 0 and Bosnia Roto 13? not even a year ago, who were then sent on 3 to 4 month long Career Courses in Gagetown, then assisted with the work-up Trg for Athena TFK Roto 3, and who will no doubt be part of the TO&E for Athena TFK Roto 4 are being called upon again. One of them hasn't spent more than 33 days consecutively in his own home in over 2 years.


----------



## PViddy (3 Jan 2005)

again, all comes down to money.  Hope you didn't vote Liberal  ;D  but ya, that is rediculous.

cheers

PV


----------



## childs56 (3 Jan 2005)

The goverment is doing the right thing in not sending any teams in right away. They sent the recce group over to asses the situation. They need a plan first and foremost. The next step is can we provide the needed tools and expertise for what they need. No point in going over their only to be in the way or having the wrong peopel in the wrong place.  The first step i think is we need to see what the goverments of those countrys do themselves. If they sit on the side line and do very little, then can we afford to help them. No we need to make sure that their own goverments (civil and military) are doing the most they can. Then we need to step in and offer assistance in the gaps that they cannot fill themselves. it seems like it is a pain staking process and that needless deaths are occuring, can you imagine if we send peolpe in their only to have them in mine infested parts, or get caught up in some kind of internal civil war over control which most doublty will occur in soem parts. We need to have these people help themselves first before we can help them. Help and charity begins at home. the factthat alot of areas have been completely demloished says to me that sending in A/c and equipment may not be a good idea untill it can be supported on the ground. The reality is we have neither the money nor the man power to provide a large scale help mission, so we need to ensure that what ever support we do provide is not hastly wasted in the wrong areas.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (4 Jan 2005)

I have to add my two cents worth that the DART, while good intentioned, is IMHO pretty much just a public relations stunt that doesn't really work well.   I would add my vote to PBI's that our military has no business doing this type of thing.

In my previous incarnation as an Artillery Officer, I was a staff officer at the Brigade Headquarters in Petawawa when DART was first set up.   We were, in a word, dumbfounded that such an idea had ever seen the light of day.   We were even more dumbfounded when the flood of VMOs began arriving that stripped some very scarce and expensive vehicles and equipment away from operational units so that it could all go sit in a compound in Trenton (no replacement equipment was ever provided, at least while I was there). If kit was slow in arriving in Trenton from our units, I would get phone calls threatening me with all sorts of dire things if I did not expedite it's removal from the brigade units (no excuses were accepted.  Even if the equipment was broken, they wanted it fixed yesterday and shipped) Forget about pointing out the impacts on training or operations or the cost- the people setting this up did not want to hear it.   All this for a unit does not exist in the classical sense.   As has been pointed out earlier, DART only has about 15 full-time members- the rest are drawn from whatever unit has it's turn to carry DART as it's secondary role.

I have been watching the news for the past week.   I have noticed that all of the military units that have been deployed to Asia to help from the US or Australia are normal combat units of their respective militaries (someone please correct me if I am wrong).   They seem to be doing just fine at helping out those in need.   So why does Canada, have as far as I am aware (again, I stand to be corrected) the world's only military-run disaster assistance team? Would we not farther ahead having more (any): heavy airlift, heavy sea lift, combat engineers, medium or heavy lift helos (take your pick or insert your own preferences) that would be useful in a wide range of circumstances including this disaster?

The only good thing that I will say about this whole situation is that we actually sent the recce party out before blinding committing the DART.   For those of you out there that say we have acted far too slowly in deploying, I'm not sure that you understand the scope of the problem here.   The disaster is huge and we want to end up where we are both wanted and needed.   We are also dealing with sovereign nations.   You don't just show up with your military unannounced, and say "hi, we are here to help", even in this type of situation.   At best, it would smack of colonialism; at worst it could be construed as an invasion.

Rant off.   Happy New Years everyone.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (4 Jan 2005)

CTD said:
			
		

> The goverment is doing the right thing in not sending any teams in right away. They sent the recce group over to asses the situation. They need a plan first and foremost. The next step is can we provide the needed tools and expertise for what they need. No point in going over their only to be in the way or having the wrong peopel in the wrong place.   The first step i think is we need to see what the goverments of those countrys do themselves. If they sit on the side line and do very little, then can we afford to help them. No we need to make sure that their own goverments (civil and military) are doing the most they can. Then we need to step in and offer assistance in the gaps that they cannot fill themselves. it seems like it is a pain staking process and that needless deaths are occuring, can you imagine if we send peolpe in their only to have them in mine infested parts, or get caught up in some kind of internal civil war over control which most doublty will occur in soem parts. We need to have these people help themselves first before we can help them. Help and charity begins at home. the factthat alot of areas have been completely demloished says to me that sending in A/c and equipment may not be a good idea untill it can be supported on the ground. The reality is we have neither the money nor the man power to provide a large scale help mission, so we need to ensure that what ever support we do provide is not hastly wasted in the wrong areas.



How about instead, at the moment we understood the scope of the disaster we confirm the Columbo airport is open and using our own strategic airlift get the water purification system, the assessment team, their own helicopter with fuel, and a logistic team there and then get to work.   The first couple of subsequent airlift loads are pre-determined (an emergency hospital and food rations) with the following loads being determined by the onsite commander having been pre-packaged in a warehouse on pallettes for years if necessary.

I'm sorry, this stupid political party has to go.   Probably millions of people are homeless without clean drinking water and potential epidemic on the horizon and the Liberal spin machine turns the whole emergency into a photo opportunity for the emperor of the nitwits, Paul Martin.

Anyone who votes Liberal should be embarrassed....



Matthew.


----------



## 48Highlander (4 Jan 2005)

You know, as bad as the Libs are, I find myself not being able to blame them when I start looking at what the UN is "doing".

And "SeaKing", during a disaster of this magnitude, ANY help would have been accepted immediately.  How long has the US carrier group been actively working in the area along with the Aussies?  How far behind are we lagging?



American stinginess is saving lives
By Mark Steyn
(Filed: 04/01/2005)

A week ago, people kept asking me for my opinion of the tsunami, and, to be honest, I didn't have one. It didn't seem the kind of thing to have an "opinion" on, even for an opinion columnist - not like who should win the election or whether we should have toppled Saddam. It was obviously a catastrophe, and it was certain the death toll would keep rising, and other than that there didn't seem a lot to opine about.


I've never subscribed to Macmillan's tediously over-venerated bit of political wisdom about "events, dear boy, events". Most "events" - even acts of God - come, to one degree or another, politically predetermined: almost exactly a year before the tsunamis, there were two earthquakes - one measuring 6.5 in California, one of 6.3 in Iran. The Californian quake killed two people and did little physical damage. The Iranian one killed 40,000 and reduced an entire city to rubble - not just the glories of ancient Persia, but all the schools and hospitals from the 1970s and 1980s. The event in itself wasn't devastating; the conditions on the ground made it so. 

That said, a sudden unprecedented surge by the Indian Ocean is as near to a pure "event" as one can get, and it seemed churlish to huff afterwards about why the governments of Somalia or the Maldives hadn't made a tsunami warning system one of their budgetary priorities.

But the waters recede and the familiar contours of the political landscape re-emerge - in this case, the need to fit everything to the Great Universal Theory of the age, that whatever happens, the real issue is the rottenness of America. Jan Egeland, the Norwegian bureaucrat who's the big humanitarian honcho at the UN, got the ball rolling with some remarks about the "stinginess" of certain wealthy nations. And Clare Short piled in, and then Polly Toynbee threw in her three-ha'porth, reminding us that " 'Charity begins at home' is the mean-minded dictum of the Right". But even Telegraph readers subscribe to the Great Universal Theory. On our Letters Page, Robert Eddison dismissed the "paltry $15 million from Washington" as "worse than stingy. The offer - since shamefacedly upped to $35 million - equates to what? Three oil tycoons' combined annual salary?" 

Mr Eddison concluded with a stirring plea to the wicked Americans to mend their ways: "If Washington is to lay any claim to the moral, as distinct from the military, high ground, let it emulate Ireland and Norway's prompt and proportionate attempts to plug South-East Asia's gaping gap of need and help avert a further 80,000 deaths from infection and untreated wounds."

If America were to emulate Ireland and Norway, there'd be a lot more dead Indonesians and Sri Lankans. Mr Eddison may not have noticed, but the actual relief effort going on right now is being done by the Yanks: it's the USAF and a couple of diverted naval groups shuttling in food and medicine, with solid help from the Aussies, Singapore and a couple of others. The Irish can't fly in relief supplies, because they don't have any C-130s. All they can do is wait for the UN to swing by and pick up their cheque.

The Americans send the UN the occasional postal order, too. In fact, 40 per cent of Egeland's budget comes from Washington, which suggests the Europeans aren't being quite as "proportionate" as Mr Eddison thinks. But, when disaster strikes, what matters is not whether your cheque is "prompt", but whether you are. For all the money lavished on them, the UN is hard to rouse to action. Egeland's full-time round-the-clock 24/7 Big Humanitarians are conspicuous by their all but total absence on the ground. In fact, they're doing exactly what our reader accused Washington of doing - Colin Powell, wrote Mr Eddison, "is like a surgeon saying he must do a bandage count before he will be in a position to staunch the blood flow of a haemorrhaging patient". That's the sclerotic UN bureaucracy. They've flown in (or nearby, or overhead) a couple of experts to assess the situation and they've issued press releases boasting about the assessments. In Sri Lanka, Egeland's staff informs us, "UNFPA is carrying out reproductive health assessments".

Which, translated out of UN-speak, means the Sri Lankans can go screw themselves.

One of the heartening aspects of the situation is how easy it is to make a difference. By the weekend, the Australians had managed not just to restore the water supply in Aceh, but to improve it. Even before the tsunami, most residents of the city boiled their water. But 10 army engineers from Darwin have managed to crack open the main lines and hook them up to a mobile filtration unit. This is nothing to do with Egeland and his office or how big a cheque the Norwegians sent. 

Indeed, the effectiveness of these efforts seems to be what Miss Short finds so objectionable. Washington's announcement that it would be co-ordinating its disaster relief with Australia, India and Japan smacked too much of another "coalition of the willing". "I think this initiative from America to set up four countries claiming to co-ordinate sounds like yet another attempt to undermine the UN," she told the BBC. "Only really the UN can do that job. It is the only body that has the moral authority."

I didn't catch the interview, but I'm assuming that the Oil-for-Fraud programme and the Child-Sex-for-Food programme notwithstanding, Miss Short managed to utter that last sentence with a straight face. But, if you're a homeless Sri Lankan, what matters is not who has the moral authority, but who has the water tankers and medical helicopters. President Bush didn't even bother mentioning the UN in his statement. Kofi Annan, by contrast, has decided that the Aussie-American "coalition of the willing" is, in fact, a UN operation. "The core group will support the UN effort," he said. "That group will be in support of the efforts that the UN is leading."

So American personnel in American planes and American ships will deliver American food and American medicine and implement an American relief plan, but it's still a "UN-led effort". That seems to be enough for Kofi. His "moral authority" is intact, and Guardian columnists and Telegraph readers can still bash the Yanks for their stinginess. Everybody's happy.



    So please, don't talk about how important it is to do a recce before sending down our wee little team.  While you'd be right under other circumstances, fixing a disaster of this magnitude requires bodies and equipment.  Not tomorrow or a month from now, but as soon as frggin' possible.


----------



## JasonH (4 Jan 2005)

Canada leases Russian aircraft to take rescuers to Asia



03.01.2005, 23.56


  

OTTAWA, January 3 (Itar-Tass) - It took Canadian authorities much effort to lease the Russian jet Antonov-124 (known as Condor in NATO countries) for delivering a rapid deployment team of Canadian rescuers to Southern Asia, say excerpts of a report by the Defense Ministry that were published Monday. 

Following the December 26 horrendous earthquake and tsunami, the Antonov-124's have the biggest demand among all military transport aircraft. 

The shortage of heavy-duty cargo carriers virtually disrupted the dispatching of the Canadian team to Sri Lanka. The problem acquired an almost political tint, as the opposition accused Prime Minister Paul Martin's government of procrastinating with that large-scale international humanitarian operation â â€œ a fact that it claimed might affect Canada's reputation. 

With a solution found and the Condor leased, the rescuers will leave for the disaster area within the next few days. 

The team has more than 200 men and is equipped with a mobile command center, medical appliances, and a water purification unit producing 100,000 liters of fresh water a day. 

The Defense Ministry says the number of Condor aircraft operating outside Russia does not exceed 20. In the light of it, Canadian military say the country must have its own fleet of heavy-duty transport jets or lease them in other countries. 

Local analysts point out the Condor's perfect characteristics, calling their limited number the only shortcoming of that family of aircraft. 

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=1619579&PageNum=0


----------



## ArmyRick (4 Jan 2005)

SeakingTacco, thanks for shedding some light on what has happened in the CF (and yet another example of how we are our own enemy at times)...
DART should be put on paper and IMO we should stay out of this mess. Let the Govt give $$$ to the disaster. I know I can hear so many Candians screaming bloody murder for my thoughts.

REALITY CHECK, open ears and close mouth, Canada.
(1) We can barely sustain normal CF operations (Athena, palladium, etc)
(2) We have no decent military sea lift or air lift capability (lets face it Herc don't really cut it anymore)
(3) We don't have the military personnel to man this thing.

 The only good I see coming from this is that Canadians (who love seeing our troops save the world) will once again be very proud of their military. Who knows, maybe we will get C-17 Globemsters out of this ordeal (yeah right) or maybe something silly like DART receiving another couple millions of $$$ and more equipment to park in Trenton.


----------



## SeaKingTacco (4 Jan 2005)

48Highlander-

I'm not sure that I understand what the point of your post was, but let me make it clear(er) that I am not opposed to Canada providing both monetary and physical aid to Asia, including deploying elements of our military.   In fact, I think we should be taking a leading role, as befits a weathy nation.

My point about the DART was, and remains, that it is an inappropriate use of military resources- IMHO.   We could probably be doing more sooner had we continued to invest in our airlift, sealift and helicopter fleets in the 1990s. 

The US Navy seems to be doing a great job helping out with conventional warfighting forces, precisely because they had a carrier BG and a Marine ARG in the area.   Good for them.



> So please, don't talk about how important it is to do a recce before sending down our wee little team.   While you'd be right under other circumstances, fixing a disaster of this magnitude requires bodies and equipment.   Not tomorrow or a month from now, but as soon as frggin' possible.



I stand by my original point about a recce being necessary.   In fact, the bigger the disaster, the farther away from home, the more necessary it becomes.

Remember that old dictum "time spent on recce is seldom wasted..."


----------



## 54/102 CEF (4 Jan 2005)

Hatchet Man said:
			
		

> Saturdays Toronto Sun
> 
> 
> Just more comments from a journalist whom I am starting to lose some respect for.   I mean the swipe at JTF2 (one of his many) was not necessary for the story.   Anyone up for a side topic of what exactly is Worthington's problem with JTF2?



He`s a PPCLI Leg


----------



## 48Highlander (4 Jan 2005)

Yeah, I agree that the DART is a waste of resources.  As for the ol' "time spent on recce is never wasted" bit, you gotta use some common sense there.  Personally, if I've got 200 enemy charging my trench from 100m away, I don't think I'd take the time to go recce anything.  Ditto for a disaster like this.  Get the troops and equipment moving first.  No matter where you put them, they'll be able to do some good.  If while they're there you determine that they need to be moved elsewhere, well, the Yanks in the area can give them a lift if need be.


----------



## PViddy (4 Jan 2005)

Well me being the OCdt. not knowing much about anything  ;D the recce does make a whole lota sense.  In my view you simply can't just send 200 troops over.  A suitable place for a base of operations should be located, which i believe was their purpose in the first place.  I think they may have taken to long to get he ball rolling, but that is politics for ya.  I'm proud that we were able to send a specialized team to help with the efforts.

cheers

PV


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Yeah, I agree that the DART is a waste of resources.   As for the ol' "time spent on recce is never wasted" bit, you gotta use some common sense there.   Personally, if I've got 200 enemy charging my trench from 100m away, I don't think I'd take the time to go recce anything.   Ditto for a disaster like this.   Get the troops and equipment moving first.   No matter where you put them, they'll be able to do some good.   If while they're there you determine that they need to be moved elsewhere, well, the Yanks in the area can give them a lift if need be.



No recce? There are allot of silly things we do, but sending out a Recce Party for an Op like this is essential.

Think about it

I havn't the time to break it all down right this minute, but I suspect that you are not very familiar with the Dart and its composition. You cannot take these Troops and equipment like a Field Hospital and a ROWPU c/w Bagger and just go dropping em wherever you like. Without our own timely and reliable Air lift, it is very important that the end up at a suitable and proper destination.


----------



## 48Highlander (5 Jan 2005)

It's a DISASTER.  People are dying every day.  Can you imagine, if, for instance, the fire department rected like this?  I can just imagine that phone call...

You:  My house is on fire!
Operator:  One moment please....ah yes, ok, we can donate $500 to help you put out your fire.
You:  Well that's all nice and good, but I'd really appreciate a bit of manpower here...
Operator:  Very well sir, we'll start looking for a fire truck to rent, and in the meantime we're sending over a consultant to recce a proper parking spot.


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

We are not putting out a fire at your local Armouries or doing a road move to Meaford pal. It takes a great deal of diplomatic and military co-ordination to pull this off.


----------



## 48Highlander (5 Jan 2005)

Yah I guess the Yanks and the Aussies must be way better diplomats than us 

I understand the need for co-ordination.  What I'm saying is that we're moving way too damn slow.  Recce might be important, coordination might be important, but speed and agression are just as important.  you can do all the damn reccies you want, but if you're too slow, by the time you're ready there'll be nothing left to do.


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Yah I guess the Yanks and the Aussies must be way better diplomats than us



Nope... But the Yanks have serious Airlift, and the Aussies are in close enough proximity to use C-130's as they were intended.....

Keep doing your homework, and well your at it, take some time to think about how long it took the CF to respond to the Ice Storm and the Manitoba Floods.


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> I understand the need for co-ordination.   What I'm saying is that we're moving way too damn slow.   Recce might be important, coordination might be important, but speed and agression are just as important.   you can do all the damn reccies you want, but if you're too slow, by the time you're ready there'll be nothing left to do.



The last quote's I heard in the media is that it will take these regions 15 years to recover.... Translation: There will be plenty of things for us to do for the 40 Day mandate. Almost 40% of the Dart is made up of members of my Unit, and i'd rather see us be deliberate and get it right then see them get screwed around on the other end.

We're not doing a Coy Attack, so you can leave out all of the references to it  Showing up with our collective shit together will be far more comforting to the locals than running around with a bottle of water in one hand and a shell dressing in the other.


----------



## Kirkhill (5 Jan 2005)

More important than airlift the Yanks have Marine Amphibious Ready Groups stationed in those waters with just this type of mission as one of their Special Operations Capable taskings.   Another way for us to show a commitment to the region would be to park a "relatively" cheap Largs Bay/Rotterdam class LSD(A) in Sydney or Singapore without a crew (or only a skeleton) - loaded with support for a light inf battle group.   Fly out the mission specialists when the need arises (either civil or military).   Rotate vessel with two similar ones on each coast of Canada to maintain equipment stocks.   

Yes I know it would cost money (I hear Ex-Dragoon warming up out there somewhere).   What doesn't?   But it would certainly demonstrate our commitment to the area.   Just as 4 CMBG did to Europe but this would be at a much lower cost.    1 LSD(A) ~ 2 C-17s (Maybe 1).


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

Kirkhill.. interesting.

With our military in the state that it is in, we can only ever hope to be reactive, instead of proactive like the US.

As a closer to home thought (not the media point of view), my unit is still in the process of trying to identify who will be leaving, little own the fact that it took this long to find a suitable relief area. *The Dart will never be successful when it continues to be a 3rd hat worn by members of otherwise Operationally committed Units (ie the 3 CMBG's).... The rest of the issues are all moot points by comparison.*


----------



## PViddy (5 Jan 2005)

> It's a DISASTER.   People are dying every day.   Can you imagine, if, for instance, the fire department rected like this?   I can just imagine that phone call...
> 
> You:   My house is on fire!
> Operator:   One moment please....ah yes, ok, we can donate $500 to help you put out your fire.
> ...



48th Highlander.   I happen to be involved in the fire service and ya, we still do recce's.   Do you think we just send a rescue or hose line into a burning nuilding before determining if their is A) anyone in the building itself? or B) Is the building is structually sound ? the answer is NO WAY

First of all, the operator would try to a "quick recce" verbally with the person making the 911 call so that the responding trucks know what they are goin into.

Second upon arrival at the scene the Captain or Platoon Chief will definately do an assessment before anyone goes in!

The thing to keep in mind however is all this is done very quickly and in some cases simultaneously i.e preping equipment while the scene size up is done.   Your analogy of comparing DART to somthin like the fire dept. was very poor.

I guess where the point lies is, for obvious reasons their wouldn't be a lot of politics in responding to a municipal emergency, where Asia is a much larger scale and government and as with a lot of things federal....their are politics, just the way it is.

Getting back to my point if you were to compare the CF with the FD....yes even a FD does recce's before whatever they do, just very quickly.   Unfortunately that was a large problem in tragic events like Sept. 11th you always try to know what you are goin into, but somtimes this proves very difficult.


regards

PV


----------



## Armymedic (5 Jan 2005)

Just returned from a family vaction in the US. Nothing but tsunami coverage on the news channels. I am suprised that the deployment of the DART was only annouced yesterday. IMHO they should be there by now (but it took us 4 days to get to Ottawa from Petawawa for the Ice Storm this same time of yr in '98   :-[ ). CNN et all are making big air about US Marine helo's from the USS Abe Lincoln already in place delivering food, water, and setting up purification units.

Also a point ref the rapid Isreali relief team that went to Sri Lanka, the gov't told them to go home....(abc news radio yesterday).

More after I sleep...unlike my peers on the DART, who are no doubt frantically packing thier barracks boxes, after being recalled from christmas leave as we speak.


----------



## Gilligan (5 Jan 2005)

[quote/] I understand the need for co-ordination. What I'm saying is we're moving too darn slow...
 WOW, I can't believe how many people hate DART.  Yeah, it's been poorly planned, but the basic idea shouldn't be scoffed (although I'm not sure that there is anyone who has said otherwise).  Yes, it sucks that people are being called to go, it sucks more than it has taken this long, and yes Canada and the CF look like a bunch of idiots because DND made promises about DART that they couldn't uphold....but imagine how incredibly rediculous we would look to everyone in the world....if we got there without our eggs in one basket? 
  And, I commend Paul Martin (no matter what his and his cabinet's motives) on deciding on sending $80M for Aid.  And that's in addition to the millions being sent by aid groups across Canada.  Although, one must wonder where exactly this money is coming from.....I'm young, and don't yet completely understand politics and budgets (although I'm learning) and perhaps some of you know better than I....but one doesn't just pull $80M out of their butt to hand to another group of people.  
  Anyway, it seems I've rambled, I hope I made sense, and hope I didn't repeat anything, just working it out I guess.  There are certainly far too many what ifs, or how comes to be answered, and certainly not many people on here are really the ones to answer them....although they could give some darn good insight that's for sure.  And thank you for opening my little reservists eyes to this.


----------



## a_majoor (5 Jan 2005)

http://www.snappingturtle.net/flit/archives/2005_01_02.html#005094


> January 02, 2005
> Flightless DART
> 
> There's little to say about the tragedy of Canada's response to the tsunami tragedy that hasn't already been said. A lot of excuses have been bandied about for why Canadian soldiers weren't sent, when Australia, Taiwan, Israel, and other countries despatched forces early, and the American military launched its largest operation in the area since Vietnam to try to save lives.
> ...



The reason DART is a military "organization" is that in theory, a military unit is self contained and has the ability to operate in almost any setting. Unfortunatly, Dart is mostly an idea, and could only work if it was a "real" unit like the RCR with its own internal organization, chain of command and permanent staff.

As for the idea that you can fly in and assist right away, the only reason the US Navy can _seem_ to do so is the battlegroup is also self contained, and the actual Marines, Corpsmen, helicopter pilots and so on are waiting aboard the ship(s) while the situation is being assessed. Since they are just off shore, they can arrive very quickly once someone calls in via radio or sat phone. If we had a RO/RO transport of JSS that could set sail right away, there would still have to be someone there to tell them where to sail to...


----------



## Kirkhill (5 Jan 2005)

> As for the idea that you can fly in and assist right away, the only reason the US Navy can seem to do so is the battlegroup is also self contained, and the actual Marines, Corpsmen, helicopter pilots and so on are waiting aboard the ship(s) while the situation is being assessed. Since they are just off shore, they can arrive very quickly once someone calls in via radio or sat phone. If we had a RO/RO transport of JSS that could set sail right away, there would still have to be someone there to tell them where to sail to...



Agreed entirely.  "Time spent in recce................"


----------



## Armymedic (5 Jan 2005)

You can say PERSTEMPO for medical and engineers here in Pet is gone out the window. Most of the medical pers are people who just came back from Bosnia and Afghanistan less then a yr ago. I am sure its the same for the engineers and the other DART support.

BTW most are leaving from here today...Have a good one.


----------



## old medic (5 Jan 2005)

The National Post, and Global TV yesterday kept the slow DART response alive by asking how the Italian DART was able to get to Sri Lanka in under 48 hours. 


http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=2fe4ce56-5cfc-4a41-93f6-8dad973ae1d6

A Slow-moving DART
Canadian unit still packing a week after Italian team arrived in Sri Lanka

Chris Wattie
National Post

Wednesday, January 05, 2005

KINNIYA, Sri Lanka - By the time Canada's Disaster Assistance Response Team lands in Sri Lanka, its Italian counterparts will have been up and running in this devastated city for more than a week.

An Italian team of doctors, paramedics and firefighters was rushed to this island nation two days after the tsunami that killed more than 30,000 people here, caused about $1-billion in damage and left a million people homeless.

In Kinniya, a city of 80,000 on the east coast just north of where the Canadians will be based, thousands were left with only two doctors and no medical facilities after the only hospital was destroyed.

"The hospital was completely washed away by the wave -- it was completely knocked down," Commodore J.S.K. Colombage, deputy area commander for the Sri Lankan military, said yesterday as a group of burly firefighters handed supplies from a truck draped with an enormous Italian flag.

"We were very glad to see them, I can tell you that," he said.

While Ottawa was debating whether to send the 200-member Canadian Forces emergency team, the Italians were setting up a temporary field hospital in Kinniya, which went into full operation last Friday, just five days after the tsunami.

They were starting work yesterday on a more permanent, 80-bed facility, complete with a maternity ward and operating rooms. It will be almost half done by the time Canada's emergency team arrives in the field.

"We badly needed a hospital in this area because the population is quite large and they've lost everything," said Cdr. Colombage.

"The Italians came with a container load of essential drugs and tents. They have two planes in the country for them to shift goods from Colombo to here, and they're quite willing to undertake any task."

Bill Graham, the Defence Minister, announced on Monday the Disaster Assistance Response Team (DART) would be sent to Ampara, just south of Kinniya.

The soldiers, doctors and military engineers will begin leaving Canada tomorrow, along with four planeloads of equipment for a field hospital, water purification plant and construction work. They are expected to be in place early next week.

The Liberal government has been sharply criticized for being slow to respond to the disaster, particularly in holding off on deploying the Canadian Forces unit, which was last used in 1999 after an earthquake in Turkey.

Alain Pellerin, director of the defence lobby group Conference of Defence Associations, said from Ottawa that DART was slowed to a near crawl by government indecision.

"The response last week was very slow ... they should have been considering deploying the DART right away," he said.

But Mr. Pellerin said the Canadian Forces were also struggling with a shortage of transport aircraft. The air force's Hercules transports are nearly 40 years old, and there are not enough of them to handle the team's heavy equipment.

"They don't have the ability to deploy it rapidly ... they just don't have the airlift," he said. " [So] the DART is not a capability, it's a concept -- just an idea on paper."

Mr. Graham did send a small reconnaissance party from the Canadian Forces team to Sri Lanka last week to assess whether the full unit should be sent and where it was needed most, a process that took several days.

However, the Italians in Kinniya, one of several emergency response teams co-ordinated by their government's Civil Protection Department, said they arrived just in time.

"There were just two doctors here, working around the clock," said one harried physician working in the Italian facility.

"And the backlog [of patients] was growing. We're seeing 800 people a day, a few with injuries from the wave, but some with hepatitis we think."

Kinniya was hit particularly hard by the tsunami, which was funnelled toward the city by two points of land that magnified the height and force of the wave.

The seawater reached more than a kilometre inland and struck with such power, half the hospital's thick walls collapsed and the interior was flooded. When the waves receded, they left beds, neonatal incubators and even heavy surgical equipment in a twisted jumble of wreckage.

Gianlucca Alberini, one of the heads of Rome's mission to Sri Lanka, said the Italian disaster response system -- which includes firefighters, national police and medical and military teams -- is designed to react within hours of a natural disaster.

"We moved very quickly," he said, surveying the abandoned warehouse his team will convert into a more permanent hospital.

"The first teams arrived in place, not just in Sri Lanka but in other affected areas ... on the day after the disaster."

He said the Italian government has learned the first few days after a natural disaster can be critical.

"So we moved right away, right away."

Military emergency response teams from other nations have also arrived in Sri Lanka, including forces from the United States, Finland and Russia.

However, Mr. Alberini said there is some Canadian content to the Italian effort in Kinniya: The two cargo aircraft his team is using to ferry medicine and other supplies were built by Canadair.

"We have put them at the disposal of the Sri Lankan air force, and they've found them very useful," he said.
© National Post 2005


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (5 Jan 2005)

I watched the Global report last night.   It was very scathing as it completely undermined any government argument that Canada did the right thing by proceeding slowly.

The 48-hour arrival time of the Italians in particular stood out as how you should do things.  They talked specifically about how quickly they set-up the field hospital, how quickly they treated the injured with medicines and how this will make all the difference in halting the spread of disease in that area, and allow them start rebuilding their shattered lives.

Just as an aside, I find it disgusting at how little coverage the CBC has given the US for its efforts.   The network appears to enjoy covering all the negatives but rarely covers the positives.

The primary source of anti-Americanism in Canada?   The CBC.....



Matthew.     

P.S.  Now might be the time to send an email to Graham to get in his ear about strategic airlift.


----------



## a_majoor (5 Jan 2005)

The lack of airlift is totally unacceptable, especially given the inability of the Government to "project" any sort of help to the Indian Ocean region, which undermines any pretensions of our being a "caring" nation or us having a "Responsibility to Protect".

Between all of us here, we should have the combined brainpower and financial smarts to get into the airfreight business, purchasing a few Il -76 "Candids" and upgrading them on the CASR model. We could give the Government a "first call" contractfor emergency services in exchange for the yearly insurance payments (for example). Reduced military contract rates for providing routine services such as supply runs to Alert, yearly rentals for the BTE and Reserve summer concentrations (shuttling equipment to and from, and providing one or two lifts for the jumpers) would be a "base" for the business, while we would make money flying heavy equipment for civvie companies doing work in Northern Alberta or the Arctic when not otherwise engaged. (Candids can also be used for fighting forest fires, among other things)

I realize this is a huge project (Just purchasing and upgrading the Candids would run into the $50 million dollars each range), but if we wait for Paul Martin and Co, we will *NEVER* achieve this ability


----------



## old medic (5 Jan 2005)

Just as a side bar,

You can find phtos of the Canadian DART equipment on the Reuters Photo Service 

www.reuters.com 

then run a search on "trenton" for photos


----------



## 48Highlander (5 Jan 2005)

old medic said:
			
		

> The National Post, and Global TV yesterday kept the slow DART response alive by asking how the Italian DART was able to get to Sri Lanka in under 48 hours.
> ....
> While Ottawa was debating whether to send the 200-member Canadian Forces emergency team, the Italians were setting up a temporary field hospital in Kinniya, which went into full operation last Friday, just five days after the tsunami
> ....
> ...



    How about that Armybuck?  Pviddy?  Time spent on recce eh?  I guess those silly Eyetalians don't care about proper procedures, or they lost the book.


----------



## a_majoor (5 Jan 2005)

Or maybe they had either very fast moving advance parties, or more likely, their embassy/consular personnel were on the Sat Phone right away telling their government what was needed and where they could land....


----------



## old medic (5 Jan 2005)

By all accounts the Italians did a very good recce.

Their government was just more on the ball. They quickly recognized the problem, got their gear moving, and offered it out.

The Canadian government didn't offer the DART.  You'll recall the early press conferences where Ottawa would only say they registered the DART with the UN back in 1996 as an available asset.  The Government knew they couldn't move the thing after the Haiti disaster, so they just sat back hoping to be reactive instead of proactive.


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> How about that Armybuck?   Pviddy?   Time spent on recce eh?   I guess those silly Eyetalians don't care about proper procedures, or they lost the book.



The posters below you summed it up quite well.


----------



## 48Highlander (5 Jan 2005)

Why do I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall here.

    If it's possible for the Italians to deploy a team in 48 hours, then how in the hell can you justify our delay by saying "we need to do a propper recce", or "you know, there's like, diplomatic problems and stuff".

    Give me a fucking break.  Put the blame where it lies.  Our politicians are indecisive.  The DART team is a PR concept and not an actual unit.  We have no transport.  The actual decision to finaly deploy them is a result of the PM wanting to look good, and not any sort of new developments.

    What the hell does any of it have to do with recconoisance or diplomacy.  nothing whatsever.  the yanks, the aussies, the brits, and the italians all showed us what CAN be done when the will is there.


----------



## Meridian (5 Jan 2005)

This just came up in the office earlier today.. anyone have an answer I can relay?:

Why couldn't we have say, pre-stationed our guys (and gals) in say, I dunno Japan, or some other closer position and at least had them ready to deploy to whatever place most needed us?

One would expect from all the govnt officials over there that any region would have loved us...  so does it really only come down to needing an airfield (and of course airlift)?

Why Sri Lanka when the epicentre is still devastated?

If water purification is so important...  what good is it for us to show up 2 weeks later with clean water when everyone has already survived for 2 weeks (or not survived, even worse)... or is this a non-argument?


My thanks for any help.


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Why do I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall here.
> 
> If it's possible for the Italians to deploy a team in 48 hours, then how in the hell can you justify our delay by saying "we need to do a propper recce", or "you know, there's like, diplomatic problems and stuff".
> 
> ...



When this all happened the entire Brigade group was on leave. It would have taken well over 48 hours just to get everyone back here from wherever they were. 

How would it have looked if the PM, on day one said "Send the dart", and there was no one here to deploy with it??

The Dart exists on Paper and in Triwalls down in Trenton..... and on the backs of soldiers who are otherwise over-employed.

So all of this being said, CFJOG completing a good Recce is the only thing these people who have been tossed together can hope for.


----------



## Kirkhill (5 Jan 2005)

Interestingly enough the Italian missions man-power, according to the Post, aside from mission specialists and doctors, is based on FIREMEN not SOLDIERS.   Italy has a well organized Multi-Layer National Security system that ranges from Military (Army, Navy, Air Force), to Paramilitary (Coast Guard, Carabinieri), to Civil (Civil Defence, Police).   The fact that the Teams are primarily Civil in nature (not civilian - Police in Canada are Civil employees of the Government - regardless of whether or not they are civil in person) may have eased the decision of Governments being offered the aid. No need to discuss Rules of Engagement and Weaponry issues.

The Italian Government also has an incentive to keep their Disaster teams at a high degree of readiness (Mts Aetna and Vesuvius are active volcanos with major communities in their shadows,   Flash Floods and Avalanches in other areas are not uncommon).   They are welll practised in real world situations.

By the way 48th,   most people here are actually agreeing with you.   The process moved too slowly, the bureaucrats and politicians are to blame, we don't have the lift and DART doesn't get nearly enough use.

The only point of contention is the need for a recce.

Recce is necessary.   Always.



However another "military maxim" from my day was "concurrent activity", this often meant grabbing your dinner on your way to an OGp or to a Recce while your troops were prepping for battle or resting.

Lead elements can be despatched at short notice and be in transit while the RGp is conducting its recce on the ground.   It increases the risk that unnecessary kit might be shipped (in this case everything is needed) but increases also speed of response and shortfalls can be immediately addressed from the ground by the RGp.

And Meridian - Great Ideas, should be done, needs political commitment and cash.  Maybe not a CF tasking but certainly a DND tasking.


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

Kirkhill said:
			
		

> By the way 48th,   most people here are actually agreeing with you.   The process moved too slowly, the bureaucrats and politicians are to blame, we don't have the lift and DART doesn't get nearly enough use.



Unfortunately, he just doesn't see it from our perspective.


----------



## 48Highlander (5 Jan 2005)

Yes I'm a child. While we're trading insults, are you smoking crack?   Listen, that's exactly what the friggin' PM DID!   One day he finally decided, ok, we're sending DART now, and he made a public announcement.   Did he give the military a heads-up?   Doubtfull.   I'm not connected that high so I don't know for a fact.   Point is, if on day one he had said "start getting DART ready, cordinate with the foreign governments, let's get out there ASAP", we could have been there in a matter of days.

      Either I'm not making myself clear or for some reason you're so loyal to the Liberals that you'd rather blame the military.   I don't care which it is really, I'm done arguing with you.



      Kirkihill, I absolutely agree.   I wasn't disputing the need for a recce, just pointing out that it doesn't need to take 2 weeks.


----------



## Kirkhill (5 Jan 2005)

Meridian: I made a similar suggestion on this thread yesterday.   Another option, this one allows for a combined civil/military capability - thus cheaper.   US Marines, although military, are acceptable in the region because they don't have to bring their weapons into the country with them.   On the other hand they feel relatively secure because they have a considerable amount of lethal support close to hand.



> More important than airlift the Yanks have Marine Amphibious Ready Groups stationed in those waters with just this type of mission as one of their Special Operations Capable taskings.   Another way for us to show a commitment to the region would be to park a "relatively" cheap Largs Bay/Rotterdam class LSD(A) in Sydney or Singapore without a crew (or only a skeleton) - loaded with support for a light inf battle group.   Fly out the mission specialists when the need arises (either civil or military).   Rotate vessel with two similar ones on each coast of Canada to maintain equipment stocks.


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

48Highlander said:
			
		

> Either I'm not making myself clear or for some reason you're so loyal to the Liberals that you'd rather blame the military.   I don't care which it is really, I'm done arguing with you.



If you could only see the overall picture i'm setting with all my posts..... The Liberals tied our hands long ago.. Out.


----------



## Meridian (5 Jan 2005)

Thnx... 

I know Im treading thin ice here, but I was always told leave could be cancelled at a moment's notice..  Now I know its not the type of thing we WANT to do to our troops....  but realistically if we need them, say, on the 26th of December, to respond to a domestic disaster...  how long should we expect it to take them all to get back to the unit and be ready to go? 

Since Recce is such a great requirement... how would it be approached if, say... an earth quake happend up in Hudson Bay and a mini-tsunami wiped out all the northern villages, towns and cities (North Bay, etc)...    would we have sent up a recce team and also fired up the DART, or would we have let our DART pers sit at home...

or would this all be a non issue because airlift wouldnt really be much of an issue?

I know Im talking hypotheticals...  but Im trying to relate this to non-military, average canadian people here at work who like to think of this as one more reason why canada should just stick to social programs...


----------



## armybuck041 (5 Jan 2005)

Meridian said:
			
		

> Thnx...
> 
> I know Im treading thin ice here, but I was always told leave could be cancelled at a moment's notice..   Now I know its not the type of thing we WANT to do to our troops....   but realistically if we need them, say, on the 26th of December, to respond to a domestic disaster...   how long should we expect it to take them all to get back to the unit and be ready to go?
> 
> ...



I would hope that we would treat a domestic situation with the Highest Priority and it should skip the Dart all together. It is the responsibility of the Area HQ to prepare an immediate response to aid to civil power for a situation that happens within its area. In your scenario, 2 CMBG would most likely be flashed up with requests going out to other Areas as the situation unfolded.

Unforunately, unless the Gov't makes some sort of public decree stating that soldiers must return to their unit immediately, soldiers will go through the same rigormarole as anyone would trying to make last minute flight changes etc. I always advice my Troops to get cancellation insurance for this reason. Right now a member of my Det is in Equador. I wonder how long it would take him to get home? 

You would probably be quite surprised to see how few people actually remain here during Block Leave.


----------



## old medic (5 Jan 2005)

Just for fun,  I started a new thread about changes everyone would like to see with the DART.

http://army.ca/forums/threads/24858.from1104950924/topicseen.html#msg145209


----------



## Acorn (6 Jan 2005)

Lordy. Take a few days off from watching Army.ca and things warm up somewhat.

Point the first: the DART is not a formed unit, however, the propaganda says they can deploy withing what? 72 hours? The recce should have been en-route NLT 48 hours after the disaster, when there was some idea of the scale.

Point the second: regardless of the above, it is abundantly obvious to most CF members of the folly of DART. We would be better served by having a field hospital and a couple of sqn of Engrs on a readiness task for such events. They would be formed units, training together for war (which is the most stressful endeavor, all else is "ramping down.") That seems to be what the military contributions of nations such as Italy comprise.

Point the third: we serve at the whim of our political masters, and I wouldn't have it any other way. This BS rests squarely on the shoulders of the Liberal gov't. While I would be willing to cut them some slack if I thought they'd done their best, I can clearly see that they were confused as hell in the initial stages. Who was advising the MND when he made his comments? CF Paffos? Operational officers? Civvy staffers? (my money is on the latter, and none of them thought to talk with anyone in uniform). The problem is that the Liberals have had som much success by waiting to see which direction the crowd is travelling, and then running to the front, that they cannot truly LEAD. 

Final points: 48th and armybuck both have valid points (not bad for young fellers), however, I have to weigh in with 48th here. It is quite clear to me that gov't dithering is the scandal here, and I don't think 48th implied anything else. 

And, as a sidebar, I seem to understand that some DART mbrs were, in fact, called back from leave. And, for Meridian, yes, Reg force CF members can be called back from leave, with the necessity being determined by the chain-of-command.

Acorn


----------



## Acorn (6 Jan 2005)

Addendum:

Regarding the ability of diplomatic staff to conduct at least a preliminary recce - sorry, they haven't a clue in that regard. Unless a given nation has a Canadian Defence Attache (CDA) there is usually no-one able to conduct a recce of any use to DART deployment. A possible exception is if they have a Military Security Guard (MSG) detachment at a given Embassy/High Commission/Consulate. MSG's are MP Sgts or WOs, and larger dets have several Cpl/MCpl as well. There are some ex-CF working for Foreign Affairs Canada (FAC), but it's just a lottery if one is at any given mission.

Acorn


----------



## vangemeren (6 Jan 2005)

I found this on the CTV website, 
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1104971869614_8/?hub=Canada


> DART an outdated dinosaur, officials tell CP
> 
> Canadian Press
> 
> ...


----------



## Armymedic (6 Jan 2005)

In a slight contradiction to armybuck041,

There might not be a large number of people who actually stay here in Pet for holidays, but there are enough pers within the magic 6 hr circle to man the DART in 48 hrs. 

Speaking of what I know, the medical platoon would be filled by any medical pers avail, whether on the DART list or not. One of the problem is that with the upcoming deployment, the unit has 15-20 % less personnel to pick from (who are like me deploying in Feb). Plans are made to ensure it is known who on DART is staying in the "circle" and ensuring the mbrs who are leaving have replacements named prior to the leave period. 

All lessons learned from the Ice Storm, and the difficulties in pers coming from NF and BC from leave.

And all it takes to cancel leave is a CO's order.


----------



## armybuck041 (6 Jan 2005)

I don't consider it a contridiction.

In our case I think it was pure good fortune rather than planning, that we had some key pers available. Although i'm not so sure we could have produced in 48hrs as designed. Lets just say there were some pretty surprised people, and troops were running all over the Base getting needles and dental work done. In our case (no different than the medics), it is the Tech positions that are the issue. No offence to the young guys, but the Spr/Cpl positions tend to be plug and play. Getting the pers together would not be difficult if it didn't take place over the Block Leave period. This is one of those situations that we all joke about that actually happened.

For Hondouras, I was Dagged and in Trenton 8 hours after we got the word (although my particular position as part of a team looking at washed out infrastructure ended up being scrapped, due to Recce Info).

All in all, its par for the course.

On a positive note, there is no better organisation than 2 CMBG when it comes to reacting to fast balls. My time posted in Gagetown really opened my eyes to this fact.

I just want to be clear that I am by no means faulting the Army (and more specifically the Units themselves) for any of this. There are so many little Hats worn by the CMBG's these days that after a while its hard to even take them all seriously. Furthermore, based on a relative's employment as a Snr Mbr with the CF-JOG, I was privvy to allot of the "goings on" last week. I wish I could post it all here..... but I don't think it would be appropriate. Lets just say the above Canadian Press Post really sums it up.


----------



## Bartok5 (6 Jan 2005)

As a partially-related aside, this forum (and this thread in particular) was quoted in yesterday's Fredericton Daily Gleaner.  They mentioned the forum web-site address, and quoted 3 posts verbatim.  

Just a word to the wise.  Be careful what you say if you are not willing to stand by your comments in the light of day.  One would imagine that the "hits" on this site are going to increase exponentially as it continues to gain mainstream recognition as a source of "tell it like it is" soldier commentary.

I have no personal regrets nor worries, but some of you may.  Aside from that minor sobering thought, by all means please carry on.....


----------



## Meridian (6 Jan 2005)

Out of curiosity...   is the Gleaner online? Link? Which posts?

Cheers.

[edit: I found their website, but a) can't find the article and b) believe  it is all subscriber only anyway ]


----------



## McG (8 Jan 2005)

> DART airlift to cost Ottawa $4.4-million: Department of National Defence
> The Hill Times
> January 10th, 2005
> CIVIL CIRCLES
> ...


http://www.hilltimes.com/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2005/january/10/civ_circ/&c=1


----------



## STONEY (8 Jan 2005)

DART DART DART DART Everyone seems fixated on DART coulden't we just send help.
Recalling DART personnel, remember this happened over the Xmas holidays and a lot of people were visiting family all over the country and couldn't have made it off leave if they tried as most means of public transport was booked months in advance and even a lot of people who had reservations found themselves stranded some where other than home.
I also noted that on CNN the talking heads spent a lot of time moaning about the slow responce from the U.S. government.
The rest of the world were also probably complained about their respective gov. responces. This event has become the latest cause de jour a new one springs up every so often . There has been a unprecedented responce from all over the world and i don't know why. Certainly it was a horiffic event but there have been several other humanitarian disasters with much larger loss of life in recent memory and they did not generate near as much international attention. 
You critisize the slowness of deploying DART, but do you in fact know if someone wasn't frantically trying behind the scenes to charter airlift and could not arrange it for a week or so, and do you in fact know that several government departments wern't  also working long hard hours trying to put a plan together. Its easy to sit at home and moan about it.  In any case its obvious Canada needs a heavy airlift for its Forces and not just for humanitarian reasons but military ones as well ,but we also need many other pieces of kit and the Canadian public and its elected reps will never pony up the $$$$$.  Most of the public would never in a million years think of heavy airlift if the deployment of DART wasn't splashed all over the front pages.
Everyone should note that i saw some ARMY Reserve Medics interviewed on TV who bought drugs with their own money and paid their own way to SIRA LANKA and hooked up with a European doctor and set up a clinic and were assisting people only hours after arriving despite jetlag .  They could have just stayed home like us and posted on the internet.  BRAVO ZULU GUYS.


----------



## bossi (8 Jan 2005)

STONEY said:
			
		

> DART DART DART DART Everyone seems fixated on DART ...



Yup - *there are other issues Canadian citizens should be more concerned about*, such as whether a special interest group of only 200,000 should unduly influence Liberal party strategy (_and whether Canada should be financing a terrorist organisation _ ...):



> ... *Toronto is home to more than 200,000 Tamil-Canadians, the largest expatriate group of Tamils in the world. They vote, campaign, join the Liberal Party -- and influence at least 10 Toronto ridings. So far, they have flexed their muscles in leadership battles in 2003 and nomination races in 2004. * In the Scarborough Centre riding, a Tamil slate took 11 of 12 delegate spots for the 2003 leadership convention that crowned Paul Martin.
> 
> On Dec. 27, one day after the tsunamis hit, Defence Minister Bill Graham was on the phone with other MPs who, like him and Mr. McCallum, have significant Tamil populations in their Toronto ridings. Mr. Graham concluded that this was not only a major crisis for the world, but big for the Canadian government, and that the government's message had to be focused on Sri Lanka, according to a Liberal insider.
> 
> "It was Bill who hammered that in," the insider said. "You didn't need to get out your crayons and draw directions. Bill intuitively understood that while there were larger geopolitical issues, and certainly other communities were going to be affected, the way it would play here would be as it relates to the Sri Lankan/Tamil issue."



http://army.ca/forums/threads/23668/post-146531.html#msg146531


----------



## Armymedic (8 Jan 2005)

Sorry STONEY, I disagree with you on a few points. I don't know if you are CF or not, so I am unsure of your frame of reference of your comments...



			
				STONEY said:
			
		

> Recalling DART personnel, remember this happened over the Xmas holidays and a lot of people were visiting family all over the country and couldn't have made it off leave if they tried as most means of public transport was booked months in advance and even a lot of people who had reservations found themselves stranded some where other than home.


Actually, as I mentioned above, they rework the DART manning to ensure pers is avail during leave periods. The great majority would be within 6 driving hours of Petawawa (TO, Ott, Montreal areas). It would be the exception that someone would have to book special airfare to return to duty. And if they do, they are fully refunded the costs by the CF.



> You criticize the slowness of deploying DART, but do you in fact know if someone wasn't frantically trying behind the scenes to charter airlift and could not arrange it for a week or so, and do you in fact know that several government departments weren't also working long hard hours trying to put a plan together. Its easy to sit at home and moan about it. In any case its obvious Canada needs a heavy airlift for its Forces and not just for humanitarian reasons but military ones as well ,but we also need many other pieces of kit and the Canadian public and its elected reps will never pony up the $$$$$. Most of the public would never in a million years think of heavy airlift if the deployment of DART wasn't splashed all over the front pages.


Every natural disaster worthy of two days of news headlines is probably worthy of the CF DART to deploy. What lacks as I mentioned above is our gov'ts will to use it because of cost, political gain etc, and the CF's ability to get it anywhere in the world, due to our lack of strategic airlift assists. I do know for a fact that pers in several departments laboured over the decision to send the DART and indeed had plans ready for their deployment 48-72 hrs after news of the disaster happened (because this is what they do at DART HQ in Kingston). It was high level political decisions that slowed the deployment, not the CFs ability to mobilize. This is wrong, particularly in this specific situation. The delay in decision making has now delayed the stand up of the operational facility by as much as a week. 



> Everyone should note that i saw some ARMY Reserve Medics interviewed on TV who bought drugs with their own money and paid their own way to SRI LANKA and hooked up with a European doctor and set up a clinic and were assisting people only hours after arriving despite jetlag . They could have just stayed home like us and posted on the internet. BRAVO ZULU GUYS.



Actually I saw 4 Toronto City Paramedics, two of which also serve in the reserves as medics volunteering their time and services. The media portraited them slightly inaccurately. As you, I also say BZ to them.    Wish I could do the same.
As a regular force member, I do not have the freedom of choice and movement to just spontaneously go and do what it is they are doing, even if I had the time, money and resources to do it. 
And personally, I am departing for Afghanistan in 33 days....so watching the news, wishing my friends and coworkers a safe and fulfilling deployment in Sri Lanka, and spending time with my family is all I can do for now.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (8 Jan 2005)

Can someone explain how DART is better suited for domestic deployment?

My understanding is that if an event had happened in Canada (not in Trenton) that it still would've been at least 72-hours just for the team mobilized to leave because of the non-dedicated nature of the group.

Anyone?



Matthew.     ???


----------



## Jarnhamar (8 Jan 2005)

> It will cost the federal government at least $4.4-million (U.S.) to charter two Russian Antonov aircrafts to deploy Canada's embattled Disaster Assistant Relief Team  ­ known simply as DART  ­ which has been under intense fire because it doesn't have access to its own long-range aircraft and has taken so long to make its way to Sri Lanka to assist in the tsunami disaster relief effort.



 :warstory:

I remember a great lesson i learned from my section commander and 2IC that I think applies here.

After falling out of a run they approached me saying my level of fitness was attrocious and to be a good soldier i needed to fix it. 
Being embarassed I argued saying i was a great shot, knew all the drills backwards, great with vehicle and weapon recognition and on and on. Who cares if i wasn't that in shape.

"If you can't get to the battlefield in time your ineffective as a soldier regardless of how good you are in everything else"

They were 100% right.

If our DART team can't make it to the disaster area by their own means how effective are they?

Relying on someone else to carry us to disaster areas (or battle as the case may be) seems to crazy to be true.


----------



## armybuck041 (8 Jan 2005)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Can someone explain how DART is better suited for domestic deployment?
> 
> My understanding is that if an event had happened in Canada (not in Trenton) that it still would've been at least 72-hours just for the team mobilized to leave because of the non-dedicated nature of the group.
> 
> ...



It's not....

Aid to civil power is the responsibility of the Area in which the disaster happens ie, Toronto Blizzard = LFCA.

If the Area responsible does not have the resources to deal with the situation, other Area's are then tasked to assist ie, Winnipeg Flood = LFWA, LFCA, & some of LFAA.


----------



## armybuck041 (8 Jan 2005)

STONEY said:
			
		

> You critisize the slowness of deploying DART, but do you in fact know if someone wasn't frantically trying behind the scenes to charter airlift and could not arrange it for a week or so, and do you in fact know that several government departments wern't  also working long hard hours trying to put a plan together. Its easy to sit at home and moan about it.  In any case its obvious Canada needs a heavy airlift for its Forces and not just for humanitarian reasons but military ones as well ,but we also need many other pieces of kit and the Canadian public and its elected reps will never pony up the $$$$$. Most of the public would never in a million years think of heavy airlift if the deployment of DART wasn't splashed all over the front pages.



Exactly.... maybe the delay was all about making sure there was an effective plan in place.


----------



## bossi (8 Jan 2005)

armybuck041 said:
			
		

> ... Aid to civil power is the responsibility of the Area in which the disaster happens ie, Toronto Blizzard = LFCA.
> 
> If the Area responsible does not have the resources to deal with the situation, other Area's are then tasked to assist ie, Winnipeg Flood = LFWA, LFCA, & some of LFAA.



Small point on terminology:  ACP/Aid to Civil Power is related to "maintaining law and order".
Humanitarian Assistance (HA) in the wake of a civil disaster/emergency is not the same thing
(having said that ... sigh ... there's the remote chance of ACP in the wake of a civil disaster/emergency, but ONLY if the provincial government and RCMP are unable to maintain the rule of law, or require Army/armed assistance to do so ... but that's unlikely ...)

We now return to regularly scheduled broadcasting ...


----------



## armybuck041 (8 Jan 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> Small point on terminology:   ACP/Aid to Civil Power is related to "maintaining law and order".
> Humanitarian Assistance (HA) in the wake of a civil disaster/emergency is not the same thing
> (having said that ... sigh ... there's the remote chance of ACP in the wake of a civil disaster/emergency, but ONLY if the provincial government and RCMP are unable to maintain the rule of law, or require Army/armed assistance to do so ... but that's unlikely ...)
> 
> We now return to regularly scheduled broadcasting ...



My bad, and hopefully people understood what I meant by the examples I gave.


----------



## Armymedic (8 Jan 2005)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Can someone explain how DART is better suited for domestic deployment?
> 
> My understanding is that if an event had happened in Canada (not in Trenton) that it still would've been at least 72-hours just for the team mobilized to leave because of the non-dedicated nature of the group.



Its not meant for domestic ops. Aid to civil power Assistance to civil authorities/humanitarian assistance ops which disaster related missions like the Red River floods and the Ice storm follow a diffrent chain of command/gov't requesting procedures. Say like the number of disasters we have had in Canada in the last 10 yrs. In every case the Canadian governmental organizations, NGOs like Red Cross, and the military work together to provide "care' to the affected area. 

With the Ice Storm in Jan 98, we actually were mobilized and in position a week after the first blackouts occurred. We in this case was the entire 2 CMBG, not just 150-200 mbrs on 48 hrs NTM.

The DART puts forth two disaster area requirements that most NGOs are unable to provide quickly in a non secure disaster area, medical support and large scale water purification. Finding fresh water in Canada is usually not a problem. As for providing domestic medical support, there has to be provical MOU drawn up for the military to provide care to civilians (was done for emergent care during the Ice Storm). The DART also has a security platoon (about 30 pers) whose sole role is to ensure the safety of the ROWPUs and ensure the cordon of the hospital is orderly and safe. Guys with guns bring a bit of order. But we use police in Canada for that.

By having the ability to move to a location, set up self sufficient in a secure area amidst the confusion, and providing basic medical care and fresh clean drinking water might be a small but essential contribution.

[Moderator note:  Edited for accuracy of terminology - no other content altered]


----------



## sapper332 (8 Jan 2005)

As the SQ for the current DART Engr Sqn, I have just spent the last week of my hard-earned Xmas leave getting the Engr out the door! From 2 CER, we sent over a total of 46 soldiers. A Hvy Eqpt Sect, a Fd Sect, an Assault Boat Op Sect (+), and an array of Constr Tp soldiers with all tech trades covered.
  Just for those wondering what the Engr commitment was! Cheers!


----------



## Armymedic (8 Jan 2005)

Its been along week for all of you who had to get them out the door...

Hope your not too overworked as the acting SSM.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (8 Jan 2005)

Another thing I heard Adrianne Arsenault (sp?) of the CBC mention today was that the delay in deployment was not just about "waiting for a request" (which was the original Liberal excuse) but that at least two different departments were squabling over if and how it should be deployed.

Can someone clarify the chain of command (within the Federal Bureaucracy) as well as budget structure for the unit?

Thank you again,



Matthew.   ???


----------



## Cloud Cover (8 Jan 2005)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Can someone clarify the chain of command (within the Federal Bureaucracy) as well as budget structure for the unit?



Can't speak to the CoC. The maintenance of the unit is a dnd line item. The cost of operational deployments is supposed to be financed through requisition from the treasury board.


----------



## Kirkhill (8 Jan 2005)

> As the SQ for the current DART Engr Sqn, I have just spent the last week of my hard-earned Xmas leave getting the Engr out the door! From 2 CER, we sent over a total of 46 soldiers. A Hvy Eqpt Sect, a Fd Sect, an Assault Boat Op Sect (+), and an array of Constr Tp soldiers with all tech trades covered.



Well done...


----------



## armybuck041 (9 Jan 2005)

sapper332 said:
			
		

> As the SQ for the current DART Engr Sqn, I have just spent the last week of my hard-earned Xmas leave getting the Engr out the door! From 2 CER, we sent over a total of 46 soldiers. A Hvy Eqpt Sect, a Fd Sect, an Assault Boat Op Sect (+), and an array of Constr Tp soldiers with all tech trades covered.
> Just for those wondering what the Engr commitment was! Cheers!



Nice work Tony....


----------



## Radop (9 Jan 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Brilliant!   And who wants us?   Somalia? India? Sri Lanca?   Indonesia?   Australia?   Look at the globe and the magnitude of this disaster and figure out where we are most needed.   We have nothing in DART that could handle enough to make any real difference.   We have no reliable means of getting it there.   We have not even got the personnel to deploy it at this time.   Wake the F------ up!
> 
> GW



Sri Lanka wants us I guess.  4 water treatment plants can produce a lot of water and we can make a small difference.  Togeather with other countries small contributions, we will make a "world" of difference.

"UNLESS we pony up for some C17's and a C5 - DART is a pipedream.
 I was part of it when it first got dreamed up - it seem to keep getting bigger and bigger but no clearer focus."

I as well was called in on my Christmas leave to assist those signallers departing to the area.  I am still on 12 hrs notice to move myself.  25 pers left to set up a CP and to provide a NRL.  The problem with the DART is that it is getting bigger and bigger.  It originally was suppose to fit in 4 hurcs.  Now it would take 14 flights and some of the equipment cannot fit on a hurc.  I don't know what the solution is but I think we need to coordinate with NGOs so that we can come up with one coordinated effort that maximizes the assistance that we can give.


----------



## Rushrules (9 Jan 2005)

Chain of Command- VCDS to CFJOG


----------



## my love my life (9 Jan 2005)

There seems to be a lot of discussion in the media as to whether Canada should have sent more than just the DART team to aid the victims of the tsunami.  As well, I've read a lot of criticism about Canada taking too long to send DART.  What are your views?


----------



## bossi (9 Jan 2005)

Cdn Blackshirt said:
			
		

> Another thing I heard Adrianne Arsenault (sp?) of the CBC mention today was that the delay in deployment was not just about "waiting for a request" (which was the original Liberal excuse) but that at least two different departments were squabling over if and how it should be deployed.
> 
> Can someone clarify the chain of command (within the Federal Bureaucracy) as well as budget structure for the unit?



From a diplomatic perspective, the deployment of foreign troops without an invitation from the host, sovereign nation is sometimes called an "invasion" (i.e. Canada can't simply send the DART into another country just because "we feel like it" - the other country has to ask for us, unless there's already a treaty in place).

Thus, it's the responsibility for our Minister of Foreign Affairs vis-a-vis receiving the formal invitation from the other nation
(and, as you'll al remember, Pierre Pettigrew was on vacation outside of Canada when the tsunami hit ... and his eyes were shifting all over the place when he appeared on television yesterday to explain that "... the advantage of this century is that we can work from anywhere ..." and in the next breath he incorrectly quoted a public opinion poll as to the percentage of Canadians who were satisfied with the Canadian government's efforts ... proving that he was now extremely well-connected to the Liberal party spin doctors with their pulse on the polls back in Canada ...)


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (9 Jan 2005)

I'm just curious here but are Dart members volunteers or assigned the duties?


----------



## McG (9 Jan 2005)

For the few permanent DART members, it is a posting.   Most DART members are voluntold.   LFC units get tasked to maintain the request pers on notice to move (this task rotates with managed readiness).   Tasked units will often identify specific sub units and sub-sub units that will deploy as a whole to meet the commitment (this commitment may be rotated inside the unit).


----------



## McG (9 Jan 2005)

Rushrules said:
			
		

> Chain of Command- VCDS to CFJOG


To over-simplify: VCDS is the Admin guy; DCDS is the Ops guy.
CFJOG (which DART is a part of) is under the DCDS.
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dcds/dir/pages/orgChart2_e.asp


----------



## 54/102 CEF (9 Jan 2005)

From NY TIMES ---- 8 Jan 05

This is a DART............

You can see the scale of effort that we have vs the US
*********************************************************

Tsunami Tests U.S. Forces' Logistics, but Gives Pentagon a Chance to Show a Human Face
By THOM SHANKER and JAMES BROOKE 

ASHINGTON, Jan. 8 - The huge American relief operation in the Indian Ocean carries risks for the Pentagon but also rewards, employing combat resources at a time the armed forces are stretched thin, but putting forth an image of an American military that is as caring and efficient in saving lives as it is violent and efficient in slaying adversaries.

Senior Pentagon and military officials say the Defense Department carefully balanced its strategic needs with the imperative to open up logistical bottlenecks and begin ferrying water, food, medical supplies and shelter in one of the most challenging relief operations of the last 50 years. 

The latest estimates indicate that the Pentagon's portion of the relief effort is costing about $5.6 million per day, and that the military already has spent $40 million on the mission, Defense Department officials said Friday. Total American combat assets - including ships and aircraft - now ordered into the region for tsunami relief are valued at $20 billion.

In the hours after the tsunami leveled coastal villages across the Indian Ocean, killing more than 150,000 and leaving millions displaced, the Bush administration began crunching numbers to calculate relief donations. But a very different kind of risk analysis was under way deep inside the Pentagon and at the military's Pacific Command in Hawaii, these officials said.

Senior military planners calculated in just a few hours how much combat power would have to be preserved for commanders in the Pacific to maintain a credible deterrent against North Korea, and even China, while sending relief assistance. 

Senior officers said the most important discussion was with Gen. Leon J. LaPorte, the commander of American forces in South Korea. 

"In this particular case, we talked about Korea in some depth," said Adm. Thomas B. Fargo, commander of all American forces in the Pacific. "We did a solid risk assessment, and I am comfortable with our posture."

Although large military commitments to Iraq and Afghanistan have stretched the American forces worldwide, Pentagon and Pacific command planners realized there was an unintended benefit, especially in the decision to move heavy bombers from home bases in the United States to Asia, within easy striking distance of North Korea. This step was taken to maintain a strong deterrent in the Pacific as American military forces flowed toward Iraq. 

These changes to the traditional force posture in the region have allowed the commitment of a large military contingent to the aid mission. As of Friday, approximately 13,000 American military personnel, nearly 20 warships and about 90 aircraft were assigned to the relief effort, said Lt. Gen. Robert R. Blackman, commander of American military efforts for the relief mission.

While the military has focused on fighting wars, the relief mission showed how swiftly it can shift missions and provide, on a large scale, such mundane but lifesaving capabilities as global transportation, cargo handling, water purification and emergency medical care.

The aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln, for example, carries as much municipal infrastructure in the Indian Ocean as many American cities. 

Officers and enlisted personnel involved in the mission say they are grateful for the change of pace and proud of the relief mission, which presents the world with an image of an American military saving lives of tsunami victims in countries where the United States has strong military ties, and in some where it has few.

Brig. Gen. Jan-Marc Jouas, commander of the 18th Wing at Kadena Air Base in Okinawa, Japan, the largest air base in the Pacific, said the military's relief effort symbolized the full range of the American armed services' engagement. 

"It shows we are here for more than just the defense of Japan, an ally," he said. "We are here for other missions, the commitment to the defense of Korea, humanitarian missions, disaster relief."

In describing the balance struck by his Air Force assets, General Jouas said the American air wing at Kadena sent cargo transports, refueling tankers and helicopters to the Indian Ocean to take part in tsunami relief but kept ready in the Pacific region its airborne early warning jets and four dozen F-15 fighters.

Speaking at the military's relief command post set up at Utapao, Thailand, he expressed a desire that the military's efforts at tsunami relief would carry a powerful message around the world. 

"I would hope that people would see the huge effort that we have put forth to mobilize almost 14,000 service men and women, the number of aircraft we have put into this," he said. "The generosity of the American government and people would countermand the perceptions they may have had."

One senior Pentagon official cautioned, however, "When you commit forces to any contingency, it takes away from your ability to commit elsewhere, especially to the fight." He added that war planners were paying special attention to the strain on the military's transport ability.

The commitment of the Abraham Lincoln carrier strike group and a second amphibious strike group led by the helicopter carrier Bonhomme Richard amounts to a significant combat ability that is, temporarily at least, unavailable to combat commanders.

"Does the effort degrade our ability to operate combat aircraft off the Lincoln? Yes," said one military planner at the Pentagon. "But could it be recaptured before the ship made it to potential crisis location? Also yes."

The American armed forces have routinely been called in for relief, rescue and pinpoint stabilization missions in places like Haiti or Liberia, or deployed over years to avert social collapse and end bloodshed in places like Bosnia or Kosovo. The current relief mission is certain to be shorter than the Balkans deployments, and is likely to do more for the military's image, both among hard-hit citizens along the Indian Ocean rim and around the globe, than other recent missions in Africa or the Caribbean.

A military axiom holds that even the best plans do not survive first contact with an enemy, and much of the Defense Department's expertise is in the ability to plan quickly, rather than in rigidly carrying out the plans themselves. 

Thus, officers at the military's Pacific Command said they were able to mount the assistance effort rapidly because they already had conducted a large number of exercises in the region that had incorporated elements of disaster relief.

"Our large multinational exercise that we conduct every year in Thailand is specifically pointed toward humanitarian assistance, disaster relief and peacekeeping, and of course it brings a large number of the nations of the region together to work in this same manner," Admiral Fargo said. 

"So you can't point yourself toward a specific catastrophe like this," he added, "but you can put in place the basic training, the habitual relationships and, as I pointed out, the standard operating procedures that apply to a wide range of contingencies and crises." 


Thom Shanker reported from Washington for this article, and James Brooke from Okinawa, Japan, and Utapao, Thailand.


----------



## McG (9 Jan 2005)

The pers tempo discussion has moved:
http://army.ca/forums/threads/25026.0.html


----------



## Armymedic (9 Jan 2005)

I can only speak with certainty of the medical side of 2 CMBG and DART. The DART and tour  manning is assigned by the Fd Amb RSM in consultation with several mbrs of the senior staff. Nobody HAS to go on a deployment and are usually asked to fill a slot on the TO&E prior to final manning is confirmed.


ps-DART can be deployed 90+ days if required. This could be one of those cases.


----------



## Kirkhill (10 Jan 2005)

With regard to speed of response and those, me included that felt that DART was activated too slowly by our Government.

There has been a discussion in the past about Airlift vs Sealift and rapid response, some have felt that sealift would be too slow and thus isn't a worthwhile capability.

This from today's UK Sun.



> DEFENCE chiefs plan to send a massive Royal Navy task force to aid Asia's tsunami victims, The Sun can reveal.
> 
> The fleet will comprise up to 12 ships including two aircraft carriers.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tpr.Orange (10 Jan 2005)

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1105360163703_100769363?hub=topstories#


Dart team arrives, but many other aid workers are packing up to leave?

and if you haven't heard american aid helicopter crashed in sri lanka today. No deaths were reported


----------



## disqx (11 Jan 2005)

Just a civilian giving you guys a heads up: You're getting some published attention now. From the <a href="http://www.thehilltimes.ca/html/index.php?display=story&full_path=/2005/january/10/civ_circ/&c=1">Hill Times</a>:

The Hill Times, January 10th, 2005
CIVIL CIRCLES
By Paco Francoli
DART airlift to cost Ottawa $4.4-million: Department of National Defence

[...]

On the internet, a number of Canadian Forces staffers were far more blunt in their assessments of DART when chatting on a popular public forum set up specifically for them.

"I was part of [DART] when it first got dreamed up. It seems to keep getting bigger and bigger, but no clearer focus," said a corporal who identifies himself only as Kevin B.

The forum, found at www.army.ca, has been around since 1993 and provides a gateway for anyone interested in the Canadian military. It is not sponsored or connected to the federal government. Most subscribers use aliases but identify themselves as current or former members of the Canadian military.

"DART is like my grandmother's living room furniture  ­ looks great, but for goodness sakes don't use it," wrote Bograt, an officer cadet.

After the Canadian government indicated it intended to send DART to Sri Lanka to help with the tsunami disaster, many subscribers logged on to the forum to slam the government for failing to properly fund and equip DART.

"I know same people that have said the DART is a good thing? We do require it. Every country has a DART. We just need the aircraft," lamented Recce41 who identifies himself as a warrant officer.

Many subscribers praised a recent editorial by retired Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie (who one subscriber called "Uncle Lew") who pointed out that the federal government is stuck leasing Antonov aircraft for DART at a time of high demand.


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (11 Jan 2005)

Thank you, yes we caught that also, pretty shoddy reporting really. What if none of us are even in the military?
Maybe we just read too much and think that, silly no?

Anyway thanks and welcome to army.ca.


----------



## Armymedic (11 Jan 2005)

Now that they are in location,

the boys will go forth and do good. 

No matter all the bad press, opinions, and political bull**** about when and how they get there, let the world watch in wonder as the DART does things in the Canadian way... Doing work beyond their duties, doing more with less, and succeeding where others may have failed.


----------



## armybuck041 (11 Jan 2005)

Armymedic said:
			
		

> Now that they are in location,
> 
> the boys will go forth and do good.
> 
> No matter all the bad press, opinions, and political bull**** about when and how they get there, let the world watch in wonder as the DART does things in the Canadian way... Doing work beyond their duties, doing more with less, and succeeding where others may have failed.



Couldn't have said it better myself....


----------



## Armymedic (13 Jan 2005)

Outstanding quote from a medic who worked for me in 3 RCR....

_"We are representing everybody, the whole of Canada. It's not just the military or the politicians," said Cpl. Gretel Quinonez of St. Catharines.

"And if (the Canadian public) could see these people's faces, then they would be like, it doesn't matter how long it took, we're here. And look at them. They're grateful that we're here, and that's what really counts."_

whole story here:

http://www.canada.com/components/printstory/printstory4.aspx?id=a1972c7b-6bc9-4445-b912-6da4fead6fcb

BTW: both medic mentioned in the story returned from Bosnia with me in Apr.


----------



## Edward Campbell (17 Jan 2005)

I think Lorne Gunther, in today's _National Post_ at:  http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/comment/story.html?id=30e79d4b-6efe-4048-84d4-c3a7e52885af    just about sums it up as far as I am concerned.   He has identified the symptoms and the underlying cause ...


Emphasis added



> We have the heart but we can't deliver it
> 
> Lorne Gunter
> 
> ...


----------



## PViddy (17 Jan 2005)

Great article, albeit sobering.  we trudge on.

cheers

PV


----------



## Bruce Monkhouse (19 Jan 2005)

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/News/2005/01/19/pf-903246.html

  I'm sure no one here will be suprised at this article. :-[
    
Wed, January 19, 2005 



PM snubs heroes

PHOTO-OPS MORE IMPORTANT THAN SEEING DART 
By GARTH PRITCHARD

IT WAS a circus when Prime Minister Paul Martin visited the disaster area of Kalumai in Sri Lanka this week for a photo opportunity. His people from Ottawa, including the RCMP, were pushing people out of the way, grabbing at cameras, and trampling over graves on the beach in order to photograph the PM. 

An RCMP guy tried to interfere with my camera, but one of our soldiers intervened. 

A couple of women from the PM's office were running around yelling at people. 

It got out of hand. It was crazy. 

The whole visit was a photo opportunity -- with cameras set up for the PM in designated spots: Martin on the beach looking out to sea, Martin amid the wreckage, Martin with a homeless kid, Martin taking a token drink of water produced by the DART (Disaster Assistance Response Team) water purifier. 

He met with the Canadian commander, Lt. Col. Mike Voith, and a small medical team but didn't visit the camp of the 200 Canadian military people here for tsunami victims. 

Martin's handlers wanted no one but their people taking photos. The padre was even shoved out of the way. 

And then Martin was gone -- helicoptered out. Maybe 90 minutes in the area. Embarrassing. I'm in Sri Lanka with the DART men and women and, as Canadian soldiers always do, they're working miracles -- but the PM didn't have time to visit them. 

I found it a slap in the face. 

Why couldn't the PM's handlers have taken him to the soldiers, who are doing a fantastic job? 

There were eyebrows raised at the camp when it was learned that he wouldn't be visiting. 

The PM would have been prouder to be a Canadian if he'd seen how Canadians soldiers are responding. Yesterday we delivered 35,000 litres of fresh water to people. 

IRISH AID GROUP 

We're working with an Irish aid group who are fantastic at delivering the water in 750-litre containers that people can draw from. 

People are always thanking the Canadians. The DART guys are making friends for Canada, and whatever DART costs, it's being repaid a hundredfold. 

The human damage is appalling. Mostly it's injuries and disease that our medics are treating. 

Lung infections from seawater are a real concern, and our doctors work overtime treating them. They deal with about 100 people a day. 

The human stories go on and on. One girl who lost her parents is catatonic -- hasn't spoken since the disaster, won't eat, just stares. Yesterday a baby was brought in whose mother and grandmother were drowned in a house, but the baby was found on a coat hanger on the wall. 

Stories like this are everywhere. 

The Canadians are based near the centre of Sri Lanka, and every day teams fan out to different areas. 

As is normal with our soldiers, they do everything -- and are now starting to remove rubble. 

They've even started a ferry service across a bay to save people six hours of walking. 

Emotionally it is difficult, but our soldiers are making lasting friends for Canada. 

This is a Third World environment, and people who've lost everything have heard of all the money raised for them in Europe and North America. They keep asking where it is, and they want it now, in cash, and don't understand why we don't give it to them. 

CIDA SOMEWHERE 

We've been told CIDA is here. Somewhere. They're nowhere near us, and we're in the centre of the disaster area. We suspect they're having meetings in Colombo. 

I find myself wondering how much worse things would be if DART weren't here. These guys are wonderful. I know there are those who criticize the DART program, but it works and is essential right now for Sri Lanka. 

Like I said, they perform miracles every day. And the people know it. When all this is over, what Sri Lankans will remember is DART, not the PM's visit for


----------



## Armymedic (19 Jan 2005)

I wish I could put a poll here to see if anyone was surprised.

Personally I am not by the PMO's actions nor...



> The Canadians are based near the centre of Sri Lanka, and every day teams fan out to different areas.
> 
> As is normal with our soldiers, they do everything -- and are now starting to remove rubble.
> 
> ...



This ability to do whatever, whenever, wherever, is what makes the Canadian soldier best in the world.


----------



## McG (21 Jan 2005)

> After slow start, DART gets job done
> By COLIN FREEZE
> From Friday's Globe and Mail
> 21 Jan 05
> ...


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050120.wxlanka0121/BNStory/International/


----------



## 043 (21 Jan 2005)

MCG said:
			
		

> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050120.wxlanka0121/BNStory/International/



2 CER huah!!!!!!!!! 

As well my wife is serving over there with the Medics.


----------



## Cdn Blackshirt (21 Jan 2005)

I just find it sad that "Canada's Finest" are controlled from Ottawa by Canada's most incompetent political party.

Kudos to the troops who do more with less than anyone else in the world.




Matthew.


----------

