# Are  musicians soldiers or not?



## McG (3 Apr 2005)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> What about PAffOs and musicians?  Soldiers or not?
> 
> ...
> 
> I don't see the CIC as being fundamentally different from certain other staff types in support roles.  Most CF members participate in, or directly support those who participate in, combat activities.  But a few MOCs such as the PAffOs and musicians I've mentionned above, and CIC officers, do not.





			
				Inch said:
			
		

> I apologize for the hijack, but yes I do lump PAFFOs and Musicians into the war machine, can you quantify morale boosting and selling us to the taxpayer? It's all part of the machine, and I agree with others that CIC's play no real role in the machine.





			
				MCG said:
			
		

> Bandsmen . . . hmm.  To be honest, I'd be okay if we had to drop a few of them to put more money into other parts of our forces.





			
				2332Piper said:
			
		

> Maybye if we were actually ALLOWED to do SQ (which, according to my Brigade's standard's unit, we are not allowed to do) we could fullfill an actual role (other then our main one as musicians) in wartime/crisis other then GD. Anyways, back on topic.
> 
> Actually, look up your history. There have been instances of bandsmen winning VC's (mostly in WW1) and they contributed directly to the moral of the troops and were in the thick of the fighting in every major battle. These days, our job is to promote the CF in the eye of the public and contribute to parades (all military parades need music, thats how it has always been) and other official functions, and (in those units that actually let us train as such) to act as infantrymen as a secondary role.



From the thread Alternate for the CIC.


----------



## McG (3 Apr 2005)

Neill McKay said:
			
		

> > Actually, look up your history. There have been instances of bandsmen winning VC's (mostly in WW1) and they contributed directly to the moral of the troops and were in the thick of the fighting in every major battle.
> 
> 
> No argument there.   However, we no longer send musicians onto the battlefield.


----------



## McG (3 Apr 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> there is no question that we should at least be SQ qualified and possibly trained to do a secondary duty in time of crisis (as a driver, for example).


Why not the other way around?  All musicians have some MOC as their primary roll, and play an instrument as a secondary duty.


----------



## GK .Dundas (3 Apr 2005)

Correct me if I'm wrong but did'nt bandsmen perfom as strecher bearers during wartime at one time?


----------



## aesop081 (3 Apr 2005)

MCG said:
			
		

> Why not the other way around?   All musicians have some MOC as their primary roll, and play an instrument as a secondary duty.



Thats not correct for all musicians.  Bands such as the air command band are composed of people who are musicians by MOC, it is not a secondary duty.


----------



## George Wallace (3 Apr 2005)

GK .Dundas said:
			
		

> Correct me if I'm wrong but did'nt bandsmen perfom as strecher bearers during wartime at one time?



Yes they did.   In those days they were members of the Regimental Band and performed those duties to assist the Medics.   Today, due to Budget cutbacks in the 1970's, there are no longer Regimental Bands in the Regular Force.   That role has faded into history.

EDIT ADDITION:  When there were Regimental Bands in the Regular Force after WW II, their members were all Professional Musicians.  Many landed up in Air Command, Central Command or Maritime Command Bands when the Regiments lost their Bands.  Today the Regimental Bands in the Army and Reserve are made up of volunteers from various units and in some cases Legion Members and Civilians.


----------



## Infanteer (3 Apr 2005)

MCG said:
			
		

> Why not the other way around?   All musicians have some MOC as their primary roll, and play an instrument as a secondary duty.



The Aussies still do it this way.

http://www.army.gov.au/stayarmy/index.htm

_ECN 244 - Pipes    

The Piper or Drummer is a Rifleman (infantryman). The traditional wartime role of Pipes and Drums within the Battalions is as Stretcher Bearers. This role has been modernised with increased medical training and a greater responsibility with the use of drugs such as Morphine to become what is now refered to as Combat First Aider. All members of the Platoon undergo an intense three week course on advanced First Aid and have to recertify annually on skills such as the use of drugs, canulation and various types of wound dressings.

Infantry Combat First Aider must be fully qualified as a Rifleman ECN 343-1 and should have a minimum of 18 months experience in this role as his performance as an Infantry Combat First Aider is closely related to his duties as a Rifleman.

Duties 

Provide advanced first aid on the battle field at company, platoon and section level. 


Be capable of controlling bleeding from gunshot, fragmentation, and any major traumatic injuries. 


Be responsible for expensive musical equipment and stores. 


Be responsible for the security of ammunition, medical equipment and personal weapons. 


Provide saline intravenous drip (Hartman Solution) and treat shock in severely injured soldiers. 


Organising stretcher bearer teams to return wounded to the Company Aid Post (CAP) for medical treatment or evacuation. 


Drive an ambulance if required in different operations. 


Liaise with the platoon sergeant and section 2IC on the maintenance of general hygiene within the section and platoon's area of responsibility. 


As a Piper/Drummer he performs with his musical instruments on ceremonial parades, military tattoo's and in support of military and civil functions. Owing to the skill required to perform the musical instruments a large proportion of the Piper/Drummer's time is spent in practice and rehearsals. 


The Sergeant is responsible for the control, discipline and ceremonial training of the band. 


The Warrant Officer is responsible for the overall conduct and performance of the band._


----------



## Duke (3 Apr 2005)

A question,

I know there are some units in the Toronto Garrison where Bandsmen (Bandspeople?) are not members of the CF. Is this a general policy or are some units bending the rules?

Duke


----------



## Navalsnpr (3 Apr 2005)

People can still join the Musician trade as it still is a full time MOC. 

The Navy still has 2 bands, one on each coast:

Stadacona Band (East Coast)

Naden Band (West Coast)

Normally personnel entering the Musician trade, get their Cpl/LS on graduation from BMQ and within the first year of service they complete a PLQ and get promoted to Sgt/PO2. I do beleive that persons applying for the Musician MOC in the RegF have to have degree in music to apply.


----------



## Neill McKay (3 Apr 2005)

I'm not going to participate in this discussion -- my comments above are taken from another thread.   However I will, to prevent any misunderstanding of my position, emphasize that I consider musicians to be an important part of the CF for reasons including public relations and recruiting, morale, ceremony, and an outstanding service to the public.   Out.


----------



## bob the piper (3 Apr 2005)

As far as I know, many PRes bands have limited paid positions and many people volunteer in the band in order to have a quality band without having to find money for more paid members. They are not Reservists, they just go to the band practices. I know, in the Royal Wpg. Rifles, they don't wear the uniform either, not sure if this is the case for other bands.


----------



## Duke (3 Apr 2005)

I know the ones in Toronto actually wear the uniform, and wear 'honorary' rank as well.

Duke


----------



## bob the piper (3 Apr 2005)

Duke said:
			
		

> I know the ones in Toronto actually wear the uniform, and wear 'honorary' rank as well.



There's a man in the RWR band who joined at like 13 by lying about his age a long long time ago. He had to retire awhile ago at WO. He's the only volunteer in the band who gets to wear the uniform. He also got an honourary promotion to MWO a few years after he retired.

Bob


----------



## George Wallace (3 Apr 2005)

Navalsnipr said:
			
		

> People can still join the Musician trade as it still is a full time MOC.
> 
> The Navy still has 2 bands, one on each coast:
> 
> ...



Not being a Musician, this is what I have garnered over the years.   They're usually "Professional Musicians" when they join and you'll find that their 'Promotions" will be based, like all trades, on thier qualifications.   In their Trade, they must be able to play several instruments, read and write music, and progress up the various levels of 'musical training' required to be promoted.   That is how their Rank structure is formulated.   It is not unusual, to see Bandsmen with only a couple of years in, become Sgts.   If you look at the CF Bands closely, it seems that the majority are Sgts.   Ptes and Cpls stand out as newer members, probably just out of Recruit School.


----------



## Duke (3 Apr 2005)

I kind of like the idea that you can get talented musicians, soldiers or not that are dedicated to the art of 'martial music'!

And yes, I think that due to their training, military musicians are soldiers.

Duke


----------



## aesop081 (3 Apr 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Not being a Musician, this is what I have garnered over the years.   They're usually "Professional Musicians" when they join and you'll find that their 'Promotions" will be based, like all trades, on thier qualifications.   In their Trade, they must be able to play several instruments, read and write music, and progress up the various levels of 'musical training' required to be promoted.   That is how their Rank structure is formulated.   It is not unusual, to see Bandsmen with only a couple of years in, become Sgts.   If you look at the CF Bands closely, it seems that the majority are Sgts.   Ptes and Cpls stand out as newer members, probably just out of Recruit School.



We had 2 musicians on my recruit course.   One had a university degree in music and the other didnt.   The one with the degree was promoted to corporal immediately following the parade.


----------



## McG (3 Apr 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> Thats not correct for all musicians.


I intended that as a suggestion.   I know of the bandsman MOC.


----------



## aesop081 (3 Apr 2005)

MCG said:
			
		

> I intended that as a suggestion.   I know of the bandsman MOC.



oops !

CHIMO brother beaver


----------



## George Wallace (3 Apr 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> We had 2 musicians on my recruit course.    One had a university degree in music and the other didnt.    The one with the degree was promoted to corporal immediately following the parade.



There we see the example of their differing musical qualifications being recognized and their promotions being based on those qualifications.  If you followed up on their careers, you would have probably seen that they were both two or three ranks above you by the time you reached Cpl.


----------



## aesop081 (3 Apr 2005)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> There we see the example of their differing musical qualifications being recognized and their promotions being based on those qualifications.   If you followed up on their careers, you would have probably seen that they were both two or three ranks above you by the time you reached Cpl.


Oh yes, it is true.  We had a musician on the JLC prtion of my JLC/JNCO in waiwright and he was promoted to Sgt right after the course.


----------



## McG (3 Apr 2005)

Steve031 said:
			
		

> As far as bandsmen contributing in wartime, historically they have also been employed as stretcher bearers and medics.   ....   The PRES and Reg CF are soldiers who are trained and authorized to take deadly action against the enemy when appropriate.   ...   So, in a time of war, all these soldiers could conceivably fight ...


----------



## Acorn (4 Apr 2005)

Cpl Dorosh where are you?


----------



## COBRA-6 (4 Apr 2005)

I would like to see musicians do BMQ and SQ (for those in the army) like everyone else... (this would not go over well with CG however, who recruit musicians from universities, run them through BMQ and employ them for the summer on the hill...) at least then they could be employed in the field, as soldiers, with weapons!


----------



## rcr (4 Apr 2005)

My father joined the Reg Force as a bandsmen back in the 60's, and recently retired from directing a Reserve band.   He came from a Reserve Regiment, where he had qualified as an infantrymen, though he was paid to be a bandsmen.   He later ended up in Manitoba for Reg Force training where he completed BMQ and was qualified as a Bombadier, though his main role was to play in the band.   He travelled to Cyprus, Germany and did the '67 tattoo.   Though, what he always tells me is that today the Bands aren't what they used to be, therefore I can see where some of you guys are coming from.   I know that various members of his last band were civilian musicians who were paid to play with the regiment, some had prior military experience and they played well and were an excellent band when I saw them on parade.   That's all I know.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Apr 2005)

Sorry, not going to read through two pages of blather, so if this has been said already, forgive me.

Musician is a primary MOC.  I was one for nine years.  We qualified Shoot To Live once a year, if they could accommodate us on the range (we didn't do the rundown, consistent with our trade, so sometimes the infantry only got to shoot).  This was before WARRIOR.  Other than that, we concentrated on our primary focus - music and drill.

The band went en masse to the field once, though that wasn't an expectation.

In World War Two, musicians were stretcher bearers by and large, at least in pipe bands, although there were full time brass bands at various formation headquarters.  These musicians had as their primary focus - music and drill.

Not really interested in seeing another 10 pages of combat arms types whining and complaining and "suggesting" that musicians do something else, blah blah blah, heard it all before.  If you want a high quality band, you make music and drill the focus.  There are advantages to having world class bands able to compete on the world stage.  The Canadian military hasn't had a world class pipe band in decades.  That isn't their focus, as there are two types of military bands - those that focus on competition, and those that concentrate on support to regimental events.  Some pipe bands try to do both, but few if any get good enough to compete Grade I in the mother country.

Is a bandsman a soldier?  He swears an oath, does basic training, and qualifies in a trade.  He is subject to the code of service discipline and all the restrictions placed on other soldiers.  So yes, he is a soldier.

Some musicians do considerably more within their units, but we had this exact same conversation in the Medics threads.  Should they be with the units carrying C6s (the Argylls in Hamilton had qualified infantrymen in their band in large numbers, and the imperial Argylls' pipe band was actually a machine gun platoon in the field), or should they concentrate on learning their trade?

Canadian military pipe bands may never recover from going to all volunteer status, by and large, during the cuts in the 90s.  Military bands have always relied on civilian unpaid volunteers, which has advantages and disadvantages.

Discipline and leadership in military bands are complex issues and can't even begin to be addressed here.  My own personal view is that Canadian military bands are in big trouble, but that is from a pretty narrow lens here in Calgary.  We had a change of command and regimental birthday parade with just three pipers on the floor.  Scary.  Used to be a time when the band outnumbered the Regiment.

Hopefully the increase in band establishments will reverse the trend - but don't expect civilian volunteers to go away any time soon.  Nor should we want them to.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Apr 2005)

Mike_R23A said:
			
		

> I would like to see musicians do BMQ and SQ (for those in the army) like everyone else... (this would not go over well with CG however, who recruit musicians from universities, run them through BMQ and employ them for the summer on the hill...) at least then they could be employed in the field, as soldiers, with weapons!



Why would you want to use a musician in a rifle company?  If your rifle companies are so pathetically undermanned that 3 or 4 pipers, drummers, or bassoonists would make a difference, I'd say your focus is a bit skewed.  Wouldn't they need not just SQ but also BIQ to be of much value to an infantry company?  Or basic storesman, driver, etc. to do anything in Echelon?

How many musicians will want to have to go through 16 (?) weeks of training that has nothing to do with music?  I enjoyed my BMT/GMT - wasn't particularly good at it - but was happy to go right into my trade when it was all over.  Many talented musicians refused to join the military, even with the enticement of not bad pay - simply because they didn't want to put up with the Army BS.  Their loss, I think, but a reality.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Apr 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Sorry, not going to read through two pages of blather, so if this has been said already, forgive me.



We remind new board members to read the entire thing before posting stuff thats already been covered. Staff or not, you should do the same.



			
				Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> Not really interested in seeing another 10 pages of combat arms types whining and complaining and "suggesting" that musicians do something else, blah blah blah, heard it all before.



I am not interested in that either but since this is not about keeping Micheal Dorosh interested.....


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Apr 2005)

Another note on "honourary rank"; our band does so as well, but bear in mind these come with few priviliges and are a matter of some controversy.  The Pipe Major and Drum Major here are actually civilians, as is the Drum Sergeant; they are members of the WOs and Sgts mess IIRC, or at the least are invited in.  But they don't have authority outside the band.  It is interesting that the Drum Sgt used to be a commissioned officer in the regiment years ago.  The Drum Major was a qualified submariner in the Royal Navy and the Pipe Major was a piper before the cuts and transferred to a Service Battalion where he was briefly a vehicle tech.

One will find that many volunteer musicians would be willing to join the military but cannot due to medical reasons;  we also have several ex-soldiers, including regular force infantrymen, who can't get back in without redoing basic training because they have been out for ten years.  Not sure that they would have forgotten how to salute or recognize the different ranks in all that time.


----------



## Infanteer (4 Apr 2005)

Sorry you couldn't take two minutes out of your day to go over the previous page and a half Michael - if you did, you would have found that other (good) militaries find something productive to do with their bandsmen which may be worth looking at.

If someone doesn't want to join the Army to do the "Army BS", then piss on him I say.  If he wants to wear a nice uniform when he plays his flute, he should have to live up to what wearing the uniform means.

Personally, as I said above, the Aussie way represents an interesting alternative:



			
				Infanteer said:
			
		

> The Aussies still do it this way.
> 
> http://www.army.gov.au/stayarmy/index.htm
> 
> ...


----------



## Edward Campbell (4 Apr 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Not really interested in seeing another 10 pages of combat arms types whining and complaining and "suggesting" that musicians do something else, blah blah blah, heard it all before.  If you want a high quality band, you make music and drill the focus.
> ...



Well, OK, but: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9750/soldiers.htm 

â Å“The historical model of regimental bands staffed by non-combatant professional musicians whose sole mandate is garrison duties is not the case with P&D platoon. Members of 2RCR Pipes and Drums must be fully qualified infantiers having completed the Regimental Battle School and infantry specific trade and career courses. Soldiers in the platoon are highly cross-trained through courses such as Assault Pioneer, Recce Patrolman, Combat Intelligence, Combat Communicator, Parachutist, Anti-Armour, and Sniper ... The only two personnel in the platoon who are not infantiers are the Pipe Major and the Drum Instructor, who are professional musicians. Their essential positions provide for the musical training and guidance within the platoon.â ?

From the 2RCR Pipes and Drums web site; I agree they are not a _world class_ band but they are musicians and soldiers, at the same time, etc, etc.


----------



## McG (4 Apr 2005)

Edward Campbell said:
			
		

> From the 2RCR Pipes and Drums web site; I agree they are not a _world class_ band but they are musicians and soldiers, at the same time, etc, etc.


In fact, could you not say they are soldiers first and bandsmen second?


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Apr 2005)

Infanteer, how many Australian pipe bands compete on the world stage?

I served in England in 1990 with Aussie pipers and drummers, they were average guys, with one or two standouts, and really nothing military about them.   Rather like the Canadians there.

Competition is not the only way to judge a good band (some good bands simply don't compete, if they are busy with other stuff - like military training), so we can both just guess as to how "good" these Aussie military bands are.   It's possible they are well above average with respect to musical ability and talent, but the odds are low.

Like I said, for the reserves especially (we have no regular force Highland regiments), if you're so desperate for troops on the ground that you need riflemen from your P and D, you actually have bigger problems.

I do think that all civilian volunteers should do some form of basic training - perhaps even pay them - to ensure they are subject to military discipline.   Then they will know enough to salute the Colours or the officers of the regiment, not walk around half undressed, show up for practice on time, don't do drugs on DND property, etc.   You also eliminate the two-tier system we had in our band, with paid military guys getting meal money, travel assistance allowance, etc., and civvies getting squat.   One NCO's solution was to extort our meal money from us and reassign it to the civilians.   Not that we felt they were undeserving of compensation, but it shouldn't have come out of our pockets.   We tried to protest but were told that if we didn't sign the aquitance roll for our meal money on a band trip to the US, all the money would go back.   That NCO is no longer in the military.  Many of us were students at the time and relied on that money as our sole source of income.

So my proposal would be, in effect, to lower medical standards and terms of service for musicians.   We do it for the CIC, and probably padres and medical officers, in the interests of the service.  I'd lower their benefits, though - no pension, gratuity, dental etc.  Plus not having to go to war.

If you want the full deal, sign up, do your training, etc.  I'm not sorry I took that route.  But would be nice to elminate the "civilian" aspect of our bands, and reward those long serving volunteers.  That would include people like our regimental secretary, who did two tours of duty as Commanding Officer of the Regiment.  He doesn't get paid despite being at every practice and parade - because he is past CRA.  And yet he contributes more time and talent and dedication to the band than many of the younger pipers who come out as a lark.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Apr 2005)

MCG said:
			
		

> In fact, could you not say they are soldiers first and bandsmen second?



The examples of 2 RCR musicians I've seen lead me to believe that they are substantially substandard; however, it has been many years and based solely on one or two individuals dimly remembered.   I do recall on of our drummers went off to 2RCR in the early 90s.   He enjoyed his time in TOW platoon.   Don't recall him saying much about musical standards.  (He, incidentally, was a good drummer.)   But, in Germany, how much competition would there be as far as pipe bands go?


----------



## Duke (4 Apr 2005)

Thanks for the clarification on the wearing of rank by band members. I didn't necessarily see anything wrong with the practice. 

PS: There is no such word as 'honourary'.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

or

Consult your Oxford Canadian Dictionary

Duke


----------



## combat_medic (4 Apr 2005)

Time for me to throw in a couple pennies myself. 

 When I originally joined the PRes, I signed up as a musician. I was pursuing a university degree in music at the time, and it seemed like a good way to have a summer job doing something I liked anyway. Once I completed basic, I was able to qualify QL3 and 4 almost instantly, by simply taking the tests. In fact, the piece I had auditioned on to get into university more than a year before I joined was hard enough that it was on the QL6B exam. So, needless to say, I was well ahead of the game. During my time as a musician, I expressed interest in doing military training as well, and participated on several excercises with the Infantry. I was told by some of the Infanteers that it was the first time they had seen a "bandie" in the field for a decade. I tried to make myself as useful as I could, with limited soldiering skills, but I was definitely the exception rather than the rule. Most everyone else in the band had little interest in field work.

Flash forward 5-6 years, and I'm in a unit where I'm not in the band. The Seaforth band used to be comprised of Infanteers who could play the instruments, but now have opened up actual R871 positions for them. There are several keen, switched on band members who will come out on ex, and, again, participate up to their abilities, but they are also the exception, rather than the rule. Also, if they don't have to do SQ any more, it will only deepen the gulf between the two trades. 

Furthermore, I know a lot of people have watched the band members go on trips across the country, or even across the world, while the serving soldiers sit on the sidelines, and I know there is a lot of resentment about that. Example - an upcoming trip to Holland in which more than 20 band members (including civilians) are getting paid to go, and only a dozen soldiers are going. While I understand the look-cool-factor of having a band there, tell me that it isn't drastically hurting the morale of the serving soldiers who are busting their butts on ex to watch some greasy civvie with long hair walk around in their regimental uniform, and getting a free trip to Europe which they did nothing to earn. 

There has got to be an even balance, methinks.


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Apr 2005)

Everything you say, combat_medic, applies in our unit too.   And there was plenty of resentment over trips to Holland.   I felt it myself after the same NCO I mentioned above ensured that I wouldn't be welcome on the trip after being forced to remuster.   Which is why I feel a limited capacity category for musicians, etc., would ensure that they be subject to military discipline (no earrings or long hair, as currently happens with civvie volunteers) while at the same time they could make a bit of money along with the rest.

We had keen bandsmen also; one piper graduated top of his class on TQ 1 infantry (and pissed off said NCO by wearing regimental kit on the grad parade rather than piper's accoutrements).   They had fun helping out the regiment, and it was appreciated.   But a lot of the fun and appreciation came because it was a novelty to both sides.   

I also agree with your conclusions.


----------



## bossi (4 Apr 2005)

Michael Dorosh said:
			
		

> ...  If you want a high quality band, you make music and drill the focus.   There are advantages to having world class bands able to compete on the world stage.   The Canadian military hasn't had a world class pipe band in decades.   That isn't their focus, as there are two types of military bands - those that focus on competition, and those that concentrate on support to regimental events.   Some pipe bands try to do both, but few if any get good enough to compete Grade I in the mother country. ...



Yup, and I was very pleased when the 48th Highlanders of Canada Pipes & Drums competed, and won, in Grade 1
(and, you're right again - the P&D competed in several grades by splitting themselves up into grades 2, 3 and 4 for competition, if I remember correctly).
However, the sight of the massed Regimental bands is still something unequalled in Toronto, and normally broadcast coast to coast on Hockey Night in Canada when they play at the season-opener for the Maple Leafs
(the 48th also have a volunteer Military Band - brass, woodwinds, drums)

However, I'm prejudiced - I was brought up listening to the bands of the Coldstream Guards and Royal Scots ... sigh ...


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Apr 2005)

bossi said:
			
		

> Yup, and I was very pleased when the 48th Highlanders of Canada Pipes & Drums competed, and won, in Grade 1
> (and, you're right again - the P&D competed in several grades by splitting themselves up into grades 2, 3 and 4 for competition, if I remember correctly).
> However, the sight of the massed Regimental bands is still something unequalled in Toronto, and normally broadcast coast to coast on Hockey Night in Canada when they play at the season-opener for the Maple Leafs
> (the 48th also have a volunteer Military Band - brass, woodwinds, drums)
> ...



Didn't the 48th also wear civilian uniform (ie white shirts and prince charlie jackets) when they were competing Grade I?  Seems to me they were concerned about not being taken seriously, or perhaps simply wanted to fit in better with the civvie piping circuit?

The 48th and PM Dewar have been no secret, even in Calgary - and hats off to them for acquiring such a reputation for excellence.  Are things still the same there?


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Apr 2005)

2332Piper said:
			
		

> , I'm with infanteer, if you don't wanna play soldier, then why join the army?



To play bagpipes and get paid for it.



> I am extememly disappointed that I got taken off SQ, I got on it, then the same night before the first weekend, got taken off the by some...won't say the word I'm thinking...person from brigade standards who didn't like bandsmen (same guy who told me the week before at the end of BMQ that he didn't want to see me on SQ because I was a bandsman, when I asked about it during the 'whos going to SQ' meeting). I also cringe when I hear comments about bandsmen being 'useless' for anything other then playing music, because I'm part of the problem myself.



Is that the problem where you get paid to do your trade?  I suggested in the medic threads that medics who come out with their units and do other stuff are a credit and should be encouraged to do so.  It is funny how in this thread, we see evidence of the opposite attitude being in effect.


----------



## aesop081 (4 Apr 2005)

As usual dorosh, you are right and everyone else has the wrong idea.  Whatever you do, don't lose that moral high-ground, you might actualy realize that there is an army out there outside the band !


----------



## Michael Dorosh (4 Apr 2005)

aesop081 said:
			
		

> As usual dorosh, you are right and everyone else has the wrong idea.  Whatever you do, don't lose that moral high-ground, you might actualy realize that there is an army out there outside the band !



Did you have, like, an opinion on the subject, or did you just want to fling faeces from your corner of the cage?

I don't have an Oxford with me, I hope faeces is spelled to an acceptable standard. ;D


----------



## combat_medic (5 Apr 2005)

OK people, back to your corners, this one is getting locked.


----------

