# Cap brass



## C/Sgt. King (2 Aug 2008)

Hey!

Maybe someone can help me. I am looking for a Military Police Cap Brass to give to my grandfather for his 90th birthday. His twin brother was a MP and it's something we'd like to give him. But I have googled and ebay-ed my brains out---any ideas as to where I might get one?

Thanks!


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## Shamrock (2 Aug 2008)

Try the MP Kitshop.


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## Fishbone Jones (2 Aug 2008)

C/Sgt. King said:
			
		

> Hey!
> 
> Maybe someone can help me. I am looking for a Military Police Cap Brass to give to my grandfather for his 90th birthday. His twin brother was a MP and it's something we'd like to give him. But I have googled and ebay-ed my brains out---any ideas as to where I might get one?
> 
> Thanks!



At 90 he likely wouldn't recognise the current badge. You'd probably want something older like a Canadian Provost Corps badge. I have no idea where you would find one of those though.


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## Blackadder1916 (3 Aug 2008)

> You'd probably want something older like a Canadian Provost Corps badge. I have no idea where you would find one of those though.



Ebay!

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-CANADIAN-CAP-BADGE-PROVOST-CORPS_W0QQitemZ250268259713QQcmdZViewItem?IMSfp=TL08070914103r32258


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## C/Sgt. King (3 Aug 2008)

thanks so much, but we actually are looking for the one with the thunderbird on it.
He already has one of the prevost ones.
but thank you


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## FastEddy (13 Aug 2008)

C/Sgt. King said:
			
		

> thanks so much, but we actually are looking for the one with the thunderbird on it.
> He already has one of the prevost ones.
> but thank you




prevost ??  " Provost  " if you please.

Cheers.


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## geo (13 Aug 2008)

Fasteddy...
Wayback when, the fronch side of the house would refer to Provost as "Prévost"

Probably not what c/Sgt meant or refering to but.... still there.

CHIMO!


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Aug 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Fasteddy...
> Wayback when, the *fronch* side of the house would refer to Provost as "Prévost"
> 
> Probably not what c/Sgt meant or refering to but.... still there.
> ...


 
Guess you mean French there geo  ;D


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## geo (13 Aug 2008)

(Written as french - pronounced with an O... (as in OUTRAGEOUS DFRENCH ACCENT ;D)


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## Nfld Sapper (13 Aug 2008)

lol, should have guessed that one geo.



:cheers:


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## 1feral1 (3 Sep 2008)

WRT, the C Pro C badge, I do beleive it has two crowns.

Nostilgia or what  ;D

Happy days,

OWDU


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## FastEddy (4 Sep 2008)

Overwatch Downunder said:
			
		

> WRT, the C Pro C badge, I do beleive it has two crowns.
> 
> Nostilgia or what  ;D
> 
> ...




Ahhhh yeah, nostalgia indeed, It seems like yesterday, it was the the only Badge that had two Crowns, the Centre one and the one on the Lion standing on the Centre one. Also the original Centre one was the Kings version and when ER II took the Throne it changed to the Queens version.


                            http://home.primus.ca/~cproc-mp/memory.htm

Cheers.


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## Blackadder1916 (4 Sep 2008)

FastEddy said:
			
		

> Ahhhh yeah, nostalgia indeed, It seems like yesterday, it was the the only Badge that had two Crowns, the Centre one and the one on the Lion standing on the Centre one. Also the original Centre one was the Kings version and when ER II took the Throne it changed to the Queens version.
> 
> http://home.primus.ca/~cproc-mp/memory.htm



When/why did the cat change?  Looking at the two versions of the CProC badge at the link provided, there is a pronounced difference between the two versions of the badge (not counting the change of crown). In the older badge the lion is as usually portrayed in (British) heraldry, a well physiqued male standing patiently but proudly.  In the later version, it looks like an underfed alley cat.


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## geo (5 Sep 2008)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> When/why did the cat change?  Looking at the two versions of the CProC badge at the link provided, there is a pronounced difference between the two versions of the badge (not counting the change of crown). In the older badge the lion is as usually portrayed in (British) heraldry, a well physiqued male standing patiently but proudly.  In the later version, it looks like an underfed alley cat.



"Well physiques patient & proud Lion to Underfed alley cat"
sounds like what happened to the CF (esp combat arms) as a whole after unification and throughout the Trudeau/Mulroney/Chrétien years


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## FastEddy (6 Sep 2008)

Blackadder1916 said:
			
		

> When/why did the cat change?  Looking at the two versions of the CProC badge at the link provided, there is a pronounced difference between the two versions of the badge (not counting the change of crown). In the older badge the lion is as usually portrayed in (British) heraldry, a well physiqued male standing patiently but proudly.  In the later version, it looks like an underfed alley cat.




It stretches ones imagination to figure out what part of left field or what prompted you to make such a comment or criticism of a Canadian Military Insignia.

Having worn this Insignia proudly for ten years and taking its Traditions, Values and Training into the Civilian aspects of Law Enforcement, which served me well, I personally take offence at your references.

However on the other hand "geo" replied with a Humorous but very insightfull comment (as usual) which I imagine was to playdown your comments.


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## HItorMiss (6 Sep 2008)

FastEddy,

I just saw the pics and you know what it did seem to "lean" out on the flanks vice being a full and aggresive lion physique....I wonder why it got skinnier as time went by?


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## TCBF (6 Sep 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> FastEddy,
> 
> I just saw the pics and you know what it did seem to "lean" out on the flanks vice being a full and aggresive lion physique....I wonder why it got skinnier as time went by?



- 'Cause Gawd only knows - we sure haven't!


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## HItorMiss (6 Sep 2008)

Well sure the CF has LOL......

I just ment why they cap brass seems to have undergone such a transformation from a full agreesive Lion to well what Daft said....


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## FastEddy (6 Sep 2008)

BulletMagnet said:
			
		

> FastEddy,
> 
> I just saw the pics and you know what it did seem to "lean" out on the flanks vice being a full and aggresive lion physique....I wonder why it got skinnier as time went by?




The original New Badges from the Tudor Crown to the St. James had the Original Royal Lion and were from JR Gaunt of London which most of us had issued in the 50's.

Then as S&D came in to play, at what date I do not know and whether the new castings were done here or abroad but I imagine it was here. But some Idiot at NDHQ in some obscure Dept. designed or accepted it, authorized the change, presumably the newer younger up to the times version on later badges. Although  probably he/she did not think that it would bring Concern, Ridicule or concern.

However, that does not give licence to anyone to use disparaging or snide remarks concerning a Corps or Regimental Badge of the Canadian Armed Forces.


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## Blackadder1916 (12 Sep 2008)

> However, that does not give licence to anyone to use disparaging or snide remarks concerning a Corps or Regimental Badge of the Canadian Armed Forces.



I would be very surprised that my comment was the first such remark you've ever heard about a Corps or Regimental badge, or perhaps your outrage now manifests because someone noticed a deficiency in an artist's rendition of your corps badge.  Such comments are nothing new and probably very common.  There are probably many signalers who have tired (and resigned themselves) of hearing about their "little naked guy"; logisticians about the symbolism (and connection with another organization) of "the crossed paperclips"; regiments (whom will remain nameless) that incorporate "flat tailed rats" in either cap or collar badges and the "worm on a toothpick" of a couple of the badges that I wore during most of my military career.  And at least one prominent Canadian regiment changed its cap badge, perhaps in part, to avoid disparaging remarks or painful memories about it symbolism.

But heraldic emblems changing shape as badges are updated is nothing new, as well as the interpretation that individual artists make when rendering the blazon of a device.  

I, of course, was struck by the significant difference in the rendering of the lions in the crests of the two corps badges on the website.  Not only was the physique of the lion changed but also the mane was considerably less pronounced.  My curiosity was piqued and I wondered whether this was a deliberate reinterpretation of the emblem or simply a poor rendering by the artist who adopted an interpretation from another heraldic badge (such as the lion on the shield of the English coat of arms).  But it was also possible that the artist may have been trying to make the cat appear to be a creature with a more North American ancestry (mountain lion or lynx) and less the symbol of the empire.

In trying to formulate an informed opinion about the difference I was aided by the several variations of CProC capbadges on http://mpmuseum.org/index3.html.  I recommend it as a worthwhile browse for anyone interested in the history of Canadian military uniforms.  In comparing the cap badges (as opposed to the  ‘drawings’ that first sparked this discussion) there are also differences in physique between ‘Tudor crown' vice ‘St. Edward crown' badges.  There is less difference in the prominence of the mane though a variant of the other ranks’ badge does appear to have a less developed mane than the officers’ badges.


Views of 'Tudor Crown' badges (both attributed to being made by Scully)

Officer cap badge                                                               Other ranks cap badge






    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





St. Edwards Crown (manufacturer not specified)

Officer                                                                                Other ranks





    
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






> . . . it was the the only Badge that had two Crowns, the Centre one and the one on the Lion standing on the Centre one.



Though the CProC badge may have been the only "corps" badge with two crowns,  it was not the only Canadian Army cap badge that incorporated the royal crest (a crowned lion statant gardant crested on a crown) in its emblem.

It was used by staff officers (colonels and brigadiers specifically in later years), general officers and even forebearers of the CIC.






   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




While these have the "king's" crown, looking at some photos of "brass hats" wearing the "queen's" crown badges it appears that there was a general tendency to slim down the lion but the mane continued to be full and pronounced.


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## Fishbone Jones (12 Sep 2008)

May have nothing to do with the current discussion. Just a bit of an aside on the lion.

http://www.hampshireflags.co.uk/world-flags/allflags/ca-govg.html



> The Canadian newspaper National Post reported on Monday, August 16, 1999, that a revised flag has been introduced for Canada's Governor-General. The revision is to the lion emblem in the flag. Governor-General Romeo LeBlanc did not like the attitude of the lion used previously. The lion, previously regardant and poking its tongue at observers, is now deprived of its claws and has its tongue politely hidden in its mouth. The change has been introduced gradually and quietly, but the new flag is already fluttering at the Governor-General's web site.



Actually, if you look, it became clawless, toothless, gaunt, no tongue and anorexic. It took Adrien Clarkson to restore it to it's full regal an dominant stature.


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