# What were they doing in BC?



## dollard (21 May 2011)

An uncle served in WWII. From 1941 August he was in the 2nd Batallion of the Canadian Scottish Regiment. In 1943 November he was transferred to the Alberta Reconnaissance Regiment where he was in the Intelligence section. With both regiments he was a driver and was stationed in various small BC towns like Long Beach, Port Alberni, Field, and Vernon. Does anyone know where I can find out what they were doing in these small towns especially the Intelligence part. I have looked at the history of both regiments and nothing is mentioned about what they were doing here. I have his service file. In 1945 he was sent to England.


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## medicineman (21 May 2011)

My guess would be local defence against a possible visit from the Japanese.

MM


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## Dennis Ruhl (22 May 2011)

The 6th, 7th, and 8th Divisions were for home defence.  The 6th and 8th were on the west coast, the 7th was on the east.  These were more or less complete divisions with intelligence sections.  The purpose of the troops in BC was against Japanese attack and some of these troops were involved in the attack on Kiska.  Their only other action was the Terrace Mutiny.  Most of these units were composed of conscripted soldiers who ended up in Europe early in 1945.  Conscripted soldiers were restricted to North America until 1945.


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## Rifleman62 (22 May 2011)

Very few conscripted troops (Zombies) went to Europe. Few saw any action by the time they arrived in theater. There were desertions. I will not say many, lots of, etc, cause that is subject to interpretation. 

Meanwhile CMHQ in London was dodgy during 1944/45 reporting the facts re Inf casualties in Italy and NW Europe. 

We had soldiers in their 30's/40's in infantry sections, Pl/Coys/Bns  approx 40% understrength, AA Arty and other arms/services stripped to provide critically needed Inf reinforcements. 

All this so as not to lose the Quebec vote for the Liberals/Mackenzie-King; "conscription if necessary, but not necessarily conscription". 

How many lives did Liberal politics cost?

There was a mutiny in Terrace, BC by the Zombies.


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## marshall sl (22 May 2011)

Zombies were conscripted soldiers who refused to serve outside of Canada,not all conscripsts were zombies. My dad tried to enlist at 16,17 and was turned down He was eventualy conscripted but was medicaly discharge just before VE day.


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## Dennis Ruhl (22 May 2011)

marshall sl said:
			
		

> Zombies were conscripted soldiers who refused to serve outside of Canada,not all conscripts were zombies.



Many conscripted soldiers eventually volunteered for overseas service.  Some of my old neighbors were reputed to have sailed to Europe in chains.


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## dollard (22 May 2011)

When my uncle was on Vancouver Island that is probably what he was doing-watching for any signs of Japanese.
I had never heard of the Terrace Mutiny before. My uncle was in Terrace but it was over a year before the Mutiny.
I'm still wondering what the Intelligence section he was with was doing in Vernon, Field, and Nanaimo. I know there were army bases in Vernon and Nanaimo and a POW camp in Field.


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## Dennis Ruhl (22 May 2011)

dollard said:
			
		

> I'm still wondering what the Intelligence section he was with was doing in Vernon, Field, and Nanaimo. I know there were army bases in Vernon and Nanaimo and a POW camp in Field.



I don't know the strength of 2 divisions but it must have been between 20,000 and 40,000.  I suspect they were spread around simply for logistical reasons.  However I know exactly what the intelligence section was doing - drill and training, just like everyone else.


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## dollard (22 May 2011)

I don't understand what you mean about 2 divisions. How do you know there were two divisions? He was in the army in BC for about 3 1/2 years before he was sent to the UK so I assumed he must have been doing something useful besides training. He wasn't a conscript and was willing to go O/S. Spreading them around would make sense.


			
				Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> I don't know the strength of 2 divisions but it must have been between 20,000 and 40,000.  I suspect they were spread around simply for logistical reasons.  However I know exactly what the intelligence section was doing - drill and training, just like everyone else.


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## Dennis Ruhl (23 May 2011)

dollard said:
			
		

> I don't understand what you mean about 2 divisions. How do you know there were two divisions? He was in the army in BC for about 3 1/2 years before he was sent to the UK so I assumed he must have been doing something useful besides training. He wasn't a conscript and was willing to go O/S.



Trust me there were 2 divisions, one for less time than the other.  Google the 6 and 8th Canadian Infantry Divisions.  All the officers and non-commissioned officers were volunteers but none (or few) of the privates.  He was likely teaching intelligence to conscripts.


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## dollard (23 May 2011)

What is the connection between the batallion I am talking about and the two divisions you are talking about?


			
				Dennis Ruhl said:
			
		

> Trust me there were 2 divisions, one for less time than the other.  Google the 6 and 8th Canadian Infantry Divisions.  All the officers and non-commissioned officers were volunteers but none (or few) of the privates.  He was likely teaching intelligence to conscripts.


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## Edward Campbell (23 May 2011)

dollard said:
			
		

> What is the connection between the batallion I am talking about and the two divisions you are talking about?




Two or three, or more, battalions are grouped together into a brigade and the two or three (or more) brigades are formed into a division. So the 2nd Battalion of the Canadian Scottish would have been in one of the brigades in one of those divisions.


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## Michael OLeary (23 May 2011)

See the organization of the 6th Canadian Infantry Division (on Wikipedia). The 2nd Battalion, Canadian Scottish Regiment is shown in the 13th Canadian Infantry Brigade in the March 1942 organization.


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## Dennis Ruhl (23 May 2011)

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/Canada/CA/SixYears/SixYears-E.html


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## Blackadder1916 (23 May 2011)

dollard said:
			
		

> . . . I'm still wondering what the Intelligence section he was with was doing in Vernon, Field, and Nanaimo. . . .



Stop thinking about intelligence in terms of James Bond.  The “intelligence section” that your uncle belonged to would have been part of the regimental headquarters of the reconnaissance regiment to which he was posted.   A unit intelligence section’s primary function is the “sifting and recording of information”.  Since you stated he was a “driver” with both the 2nd Bn Canadian Scottish Regiment, and the Alberta Reconnaissance Regiment (I assume you mean 31st (Alberta) Reconnaissance Reg’t – both of which were at various times in the 6th Canadian Infantry Division in BC), it may be likely that he was the driver for the unit Intelligence Officer (usually a regimental officer with additional training and not a specialized intelligence officer).  The Canadian Army during WW2 generally followed the organization of the British Army.  The Canadian home defence divisions and their constituent units, however, were usually understrength and their vehicles and equipment would not have matched those field force units deployed overseas, so the following would only be a guideline for the recce regt in which your uncle served.

In this organization chart you can see where the regimental HQ sits .
The org chart is from http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/44_org/infantry%20divs/44_id_recon-rgt.html. 








There is some additional information in this post on another forum that provides a little more detail about the authorized strength of a Recce Regiment as well as the assignment of vehicles.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/armour/28487-reconnaissance.html


> RECONNAISSANCE REGIMENT
> 
> War Establishment II/251/2. December 1943.
> 
> ...




The home defence of Canada is discussed in Volume 1 of the Official History of the Canadian Army in the Second World War, which is available as a PDF at http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/oh-ho/detail-eng.asp?BfBookLang=1&BfId=27

Some extracts from that publication follow.



> Home Defence at its Peak
> 
> The numerical strength of Pacific Command reached its peak in the spring and early summer of 1943; on 12 June, 34,316 all ranks of the Active Army* were stationed within its boundaries.  Headquarters Pacific Command was located at Vancouver, having moved from Esquimalt on 30 November 1942. The Command was organized in four main subordinate areas, as follows. The Vancouver Island area was commanded by the G.O.C. 6th Canadian Division, who in March had under his command the 13th Infantry Brigade at Nanaimo and the 18th Infantry Brigade at Port Alberni, while the troops of the Victoria-Esquimalt fortress, including three infantry battalions and a reconnaissance regiment, provided, with the fixed defences, rather more than the equivalent of a third brigade group. The Northern British Columbia area was commanded by the G.O.C. 8th Division, who had the 14th Infantry Brigade at Terrace and the 16th Infantry Brigade at Prince George, in addition to the Prince Rupert Defences, which included two infantry battalions. The third area was Vancouver Defences, which had two infantry battalions under command in addition to its artillery units. The fourth subordinate command was the Command reserve, consisting of the 19th Infantry Brigade, at Vernon. This location, well back in the interior, with good communications both north and south, would allow the brigade to move rapidly to any threatened point on the coast. All told, there were 21 infantry battalions in the Command. One of these, the 3rd Battalion, Regina Rifle Regiment, became during the summer the 2nd Airfield Defence Battalion and absorbed the Aerodrome Defence Companies protecting the various R.C.A.F. stations.





> Disbandment of the Home Defence Divisions,
> 1943-1944
> 
> The three home defence divisions, the 6th, 7th and 8th, were never complete in all arms and services. They did not need to be, for they were designed to operate within the framework of a static organization already existing. This meant that the services of the Commands and Military Districts were available to assist them; it also meant that the artillery of the fixed defences, and other permanent installations, could support them in operations. Thus their establishments were never as complete as those of field divisions. Nor were the establishments ever quite full. On 17 April 1943, the 7th Division was deficient 97 officers and 3738 other ranks; the 6th and 8th Divisions were short approximately 1200 and 1100 all ranks respectively.
> ...







			
				dollard said:
			
		

> . . . . .  He was in the army in BC for about 3 1/2 years before he was sent to the UK so I assumed *he must have been doing something useful besides training*. He wasn't a conscript and was willing to go O/S.   . . . . .



And what do you think the Canada Army was doing in the United Kingdom for those years before they were sent to Italy and France?  Training is usually a primary activity of any army, then and now, during wartime and peacetime - it is especially more important during war when the army in question is comprised mainly of "non-professionals".


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## dollard (23 May 2011)

Thanks guys for making me a little less clueless.


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## mikewalker28 (26 Jun 2012)

dollard said:
			
		

> Thanks guys for making me a little less clueless.




Read your post about your uncle 

This page might be usefull to you  

http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/organization/specialforces/pcmr.htm

No. 5 Company Port Alberni Alberni, Great Central Lake, Franklin River E.T. Cox, MM 

I live in the great central lake area, and have a mother in law that used to work in the local museum if you want, next time I'm in town I could pop in and take a look through old archives for you do you have a name - birthday for him. 

If he was at great central lake during that time. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Alberni

Great Central lake was actually a small lake which is now off of the #1 highway heading towards tofino BC if he was situated at the lake there's a good chance he was mining at della-falls base camp, if he was not in the military at the time.  which is one of the highest water falls in north america, I run the water taxi - hiking service going there. Jim Drink water was the person in charge of the mining operation from 1910 - Onward i belive. 

I can talk to the owner of the area where i live now which is at the lake and see if he can dig up some old pictures etc, I can also speak with his son who is actually an old boy but is a very close friend of my father in laws he might have old resident archives of who lived at the lake - worked in the area and was in the military during the 40s.  and who knows mabie your uncle is in a few of the pictures, or archives I hope you're still keeping up with this post seems like an interesting little research project and i'd be more than willing to help you out! 

Also Long Beach is a zone of beach tofino - uculet, one of the best surfing spots on the island actually ;O Is he first nations ? That might make your research allot easier to come bye, at the time there was a military air base, located in tofino, he might have been at, and a military seaplane base in uculet. 


A SHORT HISTORY OF ABANDONED AND DOWNSIZED CANADIAN MILITARY BASES
http://www.reocities.com/Pentagon/quarters/2529/

might help you with your research


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