# Cap Badges



## RetiredRoyal (14 Jul 2008)

Is it a national thing that the base tailor at supply does not carry cap badges and we are asked to purchase our own?


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## xena (14 Jul 2008)

They're an issue item for serving members IIRC.  But, as retirees, I would expect that we would have to purchase our own.


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## RetiredRoyal (14 Jul 2008)

i'm a class A reservist now. I wanted to get cap badges put on my new beret and wedge.


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## xena (14 Jul 2008)

Ah!  Gotcha.  I just went by your profile.  Sorry.

But, yeah, to my knowlege they should be issue.  The only purchase ones I've seen were for Ruperts.  They could wear either the issued ones (that didn't look quite as sharp) or purchase these other ones from the regimental kit shop (big hint, hint, from the Adjt).

Maybe talk to the CofC, because making a tradesman purchase the cap badge seems silly.  In my experience, clothing stores would give you the cap badge, and the base tailor sewed it on.  If one went directly to the base tailor, then you might get an odd response, because they just sew the things on - not supply them for everyone.

But, maybe someone currently serving and in the supply system could give an authoritative answer.

Vern?

Vern?

You out there Vern?


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## Springroll (14 Jul 2008)

I know, out here in Victoria, they are having some pretty severe shortages on the navy cap badges, so those that are needing them are having to resort to buying the "fancy" version if they want one. 

The cap badges will come in and are gone pretty fast....not enough of a supply to cover the demand.
Not sure if it is the same for all three elements...


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## Disenchantedsailor (31 Jul 2008)

It depends on the branch/trade regiment but seeing as you're a series 500 trade it shouldn't be an issue, unless of course there exisits, as with MS and Below in Victoria for some reason, a shortage. (sorry bout that Springroll but the shortage only exists out west, in fact Halifax at last report had about 10,000 of them) I can check in supply here in Shilo and see if they have any hard air badges kicking around somewhere and send a couple up if i can track them down.


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## BinRat55 (15 Aug 2008)

You are discussing "cap badges" right?  I find no shortage of any hat badges in the system, nor does one have to pay for an initial issue. If however, you were just issued one a few months ago, then you may be denied. We don't have a cash sales system anymore so if you are going to the kit shop you will be charged.



> those that are needing them are having to resort to buying the "fancy" version if they want one



 ???  Not sure what "fancy" cap badges are? The only other cap badges are officers - not to be worn by anyone else...



> unless of course there exisits, as with MS and Below in Victoria for some reason, a shortage



I may be a little slow on the uptake here, but what does being an MS or below have to do with cap badge shortages??


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## Bass ackwards (15 Aug 2008)

MS and below wear a different badge from PO2-CPO2 who, in turn, wear something different from CPO1's and officers. 

(I only know this because I was researching something else on the Materiel site two days ago) 

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dglepm/badges-insignia/CAP_BADGES-CLOTH_e.htm


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## BinRat55 (15 Aug 2008)

Wow - I never knew. Thanks for that. I like to learn a new thing every day, and today I did. That's only hard Navy trades, correct? I mean Navy Logistics still wear the paperclips and Navy medics still wear the snake...


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## George Wallace (15 Aug 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> You are discussing "cap badges" right?  I find no shortage of any hat badges in the system, nor does one have to pay for an initial issue.



Really?

Could you send all your INT Hat Badges down to CFSMI.  There are none in the system, and new members are buying "obsolete" embroidered "officer" badges at $20 a pop.  (Authorized by the Branch Chief as there are NO Int Badges in the System.)  There are already numerous posts by others in a Topic on just that subject listing other Trades that don't have any badges left.


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## George Wallace (15 Aug 2008)

BinRat55

Perhaps you would like to look at this topic: So? What is the Story with the shortage of Hatbadges?


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## Neill McKay (15 Aug 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> That's only hard Navy trades, correct?



Right, just the Naval Operations Branch badge.


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## BinRat55 (16 Aug 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> Really?
> 
> Could you send all your INT Hat Badges down to CFSMI.  There are none in the system, and new members are buying "obsolete" embroidered "officer" badges at $20 a pop.  (Authorized by the Branch Chief as there are NO Int Badges in the System.)  There are already numerous posts by others in a Topic on just that subject listing other Trades that don't have any badges left.



Interesting. Wait out - I WILL get back to you... CFSMI Kitshop is in Kingston, right?


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## Disenchantedsailor (23 Aug 2008)

For anyone in Victoria looking for MS and Below cap badges the QM has a whole box of them in the back, saw it there myself when getting one of my guys kitted out. No need to go to the tailor and purchase the $15 or $20 fancy aftermarket and not even close to authorized ones. (even though no one said anything due to the percieved shortage)


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## George Wallace (23 Aug 2008)

Which cap badges are these?


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## Disenchantedsailor (23 Aug 2008)

Sorry George which ones,   the ones they just got in through the system or the fancy tailor made ones?


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## George Wallace (23 Aug 2008)

What cap badges are you talking about?  

The ones in the QM are for what Trade?

The ones that cost $15 - $20 are for What Trade?


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## Disenchantedsailor (23 Aug 2008)

sorry they are both for Master Seaman and Below for hard sea trades, the "fancy ones" have a metal or chromed plastic fouled anchor not in the approved pattern


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## BinRat55 (23 Aug 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Interesting. Wait out - I WILL get back to you... CFSMI Kitshop is in Kingston, right?



My apologies - further investigation revealed a shortage of certain cap badges. I spoke with the supply manager re: the shortage and was informed that the ROB's (recommended orders for the depots) are being initiated now and it should take several more weeks. I misspoke earlier as I was only going by what trades we carry badges for here (we don't have a shortage for the trades that are here).

That being said, I will offer my services to my threshhold - let me know if you require a cap badge and if I have it it will be in the mail first chance I get. I will do my best to the best of my ability - don't take advantage of this offer if you don't need it. I wouldn't want people paying for kit shop items that can be issued to you for free, but I don't want people looking for a second one for parades.

Again, if I have it and you need it - you'll get it. PM me your DIN global email address so I can verify who you are and where you are. I'll contact you from there. For anyone who wants to verify ME can do so by asking Vern - we have known each other for almost 20 years - and I can assure you, i'm none the worst for the wear!!


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## Disenchantedsailor (23 Aug 2008)

perhaps one of the storsie types can answer this one,  seeing as all elements are issued two types of head dress (2 berets for the army types) Wedge and Peak Cap for the Airforce and Navy guys why is the entitlement for cap badges 1 not 2 just curious, not that I care much as most QM's will issue enough to get all your head dress sorted out?


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## Nfld Sapper (23 Aug 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> perhaps one of the storsie types can answer this one,  seeing as all elements are issued two types of head dress (2 berets for the army types) Wedge and Peak Cap for the Airforce and Navy guys why is the entitlement for cap badges 1 not 2 just curious, not that I care much as most QM's will issue enough to get all your head dress sorted out?



AFAIK we army type are only issued one beret. (Vern/BinRat confirm?)


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## armyvern (23 Aug 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> perhaps one of the storsie types can answer this one,  seeing as all elements are issued two types of head dress (2 berets for the army types) Wedge and Peak Cap for the Airforce and Navy guys why is the entitlement for cap badges 1 not 2 just curious, not that I care much as most QM's will issue enough to get all your head dress sorted out?



1 beret for the Army types, thus only one cap badge required for that one headdress that we in the Army wear.


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## BinRat55 (23 Aug 2008)

Vern - I shoulda asked RK the other day but the thought never crossed my mind, but do you think Logistik will take over the cap badges as well some day? It would seem to make sense that when one orders a beret / wedge / peak cap that a cap badge is required... I know certain trades wear out their cap badges much quicker than their lids, but the good outweighs the bad, you think?


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## armyvern (23 Aug 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Vern - I shoulda asked RK the other day but the thought never crossed my mind, but do you think Logistik will take over the cap badges as well some day? It would seem to make sense that when one orders a beret / wedge / peak cap that a cap badge is required... I know certain trades wear out their cap badges much quicker than their lids, but the good outweighs the bad, you think?



Well, I really don't see the difference as to what it matters if Logistik has the DEU contract. They don't have the capbadge contract and I'm not so sure I'd wanted to be utilizing my resources and spending my money stocking, maintaining, distributing some other companys stuff on my shelves either if I were Logistik.

Initial issue of DEU may come from Logisitk-Unicorp, but it's still issued out to the member at Clothing Stores. Either way, the guy has to come to clothing to get the beret. Usually, the capbadge is presented _after_ the successful completion of trades qualification (NOT at the same time as initial issue of the beret) ... so what would you have Logisitik do - track all the CF's students courses, grad dates, and addresses, remuster dates, recourses etc and send them a capbadge at the end of their course? I'm pretty sure, that's our job. You're creating a monster.

As it is, (IF there's stock - ie a 'contract' which is deliverable and in delivery) members can go to their supporting clothing activity to pick up a new capbadge if they want one on the day they need one - not wait 5 days to get one in the mail which would be the case if Logistik had them.

I actually just got a large email from Roger just before I went on leave answering my "cap badges and DEU "Where is the stock!!??" question ... I'll pull out the pertinent parts and post up on Monday to detail exactly where/what/how the accoutrement contract stage currently sits.


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## BinRat55 (23 Aug 2008)

I see your point - I was going in the same direction as the rank and Canada badges, but yeah, looking at it that way you're right - why wait 5 days when someone may need it today? Still, i'll be willing to bet that within a year or two you'll see Logistik with them anyway. We are up to 388 items on the contract now and it grows monthly!! Hopefully they don't put us out of business!! Think they'll be looking for a few good supply techs in a year or so?


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## ArmyGuy99 (23 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> 1 beret for the Army types, thus only one cap badge required for that one headdress that we in the Army wear.



I was issued two berets at CFLRS, 1 for everyday/field, 1 for looking pretty on parade (Although only 1 badge).   When I graduated from my 3's we were issued only 1 Cap Badge.  Go Figure.  I haven't tried to get another Cap Badge yet for 2nd beret.


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## armyvern (23 Aug 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> I see your point - I was going in the same direction as the rank and Canada badges, but yeah, looking at it that way you're right - why wait 5 days when someone may need it today? Still, i'll be willing to bet that within a year or two you'll see Logistik with them anyway. We are up to 388 items on the contract now and it grows monthly!! Hopefully they don't put us out of business!! Think they'll be looking for a few good supply techs in a year or so?



I'm wagering you're wrong with your predicition. And it's a point that we consistently shot down in our CF Clothing WGs, MASOP WGs, and CLS Clothing WGs.

For Logisitk-Unicorp (a *civilian* contractor) to have capbadges for trade qualifications ... and to issue them out on behalf of the CF ...

They'd have to be privvy to a whole lot of personal info about everyone who was remustering, what, where, when their course was / everyone who was enrolling and a what/where/when their courses were; same for having to be able to "see" who was recoursed medical or otherwise etc etc. - They'd need to know all this in order to get the capbadge/shoulder flashs etc o the individual the day they were entitled to them.

The CF already has a whole bunch invested in a program called _peoplesoft_ that does that (especially into the MITE-side), and people who know how to use it - people who would have to _still_ do all this tracking on the CF-side of the house regardless of whether Logistik-Unicorp carried accoutrements or not. Why the heck would we pay an additional few million to a civilian company (and avail them of such a vast array of trg cycle and personal info) to do what we have to do anyway.

We need more bullets. And chest rigs, and a boot allowance; what we do not need is another grand scheme to "save" money that ends up costing us more in the end when the CF will still be required to maintain it's capability to track it's soldiers, sailors and airmen.


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## armyvern (23 Aug 2008)

MedTech32 said:
			
		

> I was issued two berets at CFLRS, 1 for everyday/field, 1 for looking pretty on parade (Although only 1 badge).   When I graduated from my 3's we were issued only 1 Cap Badge.  Go Figure.  I haven't tried to get another Cap Badge yet for 2nd beret.



Aren't you lucky then. You're entitled to 1 beret. You are entitled to exchange that 1 beret via Logistik-Unicorp when you require to.

Just because you got 2, does not make it an entitlement; someone fucked up -- and you happened to be the beneficiary of such. It really is that simple. Unless, of course, the scale of entitlement for us Army types has changed in the past 3 weeks while I was on leave, which is, entirely possible. I'll check on Monday.

So says the girl (a Sup Tech at that) that just used her personal points to get herself a new beret (a parade one) from Logistik-Unicorp for the upcoming Freedom of the City Parade so that I'd 'look pretty'. Now, if I could only get a f'n cap badge to put on the damn thing.


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## Disenchantedsailor (23 Aug 2008)

Vern I gotta say then that that person have been messing up since at least 1996 and has done so in the tens of thousands times in the last 12 years, even when I can back to the Army from the navy the initial issue entitlement was 2 Berets it even had the folks at clothing stores scratching thier heads.


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## armyvern (23 Aug 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Vern I gotta say then that that person have been messing up since at least 1996 and has done so in the tens of thousands times in the last 12 years, even when I can back to the Army from the navy the initial issue entitlement was 2 Berets it even had the folks at clothing stores scratching thier heads.



Well, I'll tell you this much. For the hundreds of times that I have downloaded the Army Scales of entitlements - NEVER have I seen the qty "2" listed for berets. Never. 

Here's a copy and paste of the beret from the most recent version of the scale that I have here, but - like I said - it may have changed in the last few weeks.

D01301AA 002 8405 211033768 SIGC - BERET GREEN 8405211033768 *EA 1 * For new recruits only.


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## armyvern (23 Aug 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> Vern I gotta say then that that person have been messing up since at least 1996 and has done so in the tens of thousands times in the last 12 years, even when I can back to the Army from the navy the initial issue entitlement was 2 Berets it even had the folks at clothing stores scratching thier heads.



I now know two people who were issued 2 berets. Yourself and Med below.

That's it.

No clothing stores that I've ever worked at or supervised has issued out two. I think you may be presuming a whole lot with your "thousands" and that it has been routine for the last 12 years.

As a matter of fact, at CLS working Groups that I attended just last year -- that was one of our big fights!! Even the one Naval rep and one AF rep that attended those WGs fought along with all of us Army Sup types to get the Army entitlement raised to 2 each because it was "1". 

Our justification for our arguement that our Army entitlement needed to be raised was that:

"now that clothing doesn't stock berets any more, members should be issued two upon initial issue so that if one of their berets is stolen or damaged, they have another that they can wear because they can't walk around for 5 days without headdress waiting for a replacement from Logistik."

Perhaps I'll post up the minutes of the WGs though --- just to convince you that this is not simply a figment of my imagination. I'm sure I've even mentioned the scrap and attempts to get the entitlement raised to 2 each berets for Army folks in other threads on this forum.


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## ArmyGuy99 (23 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> *Aren't you lucky then.* You're entitled to 1 beret. You are entitled to exchange that 1 beret via Logistik-Unicorp when you require to.



Yeah, I'm Lucky.  I feel real special now.   ;D  Now if I can only win the lotto with that luck


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## Disenchantedsailor (23 Aug 2008)

All I'm saying is that when I joined the CF in 96 I was issued 2 Berets at CFLRS along with all the other Army types in the Coy, and again when I transferred back to the Army in 07 I was issued 2 Along with everyone else in my Coy and by extension presumably every soldier that passed through the CFLRS to recieve thier initial issue since at least 1996 has been issued 2 Berets, perhaps one of the CFLRS instructors on the site can provide some insight as to why the clothing stores in ST Jean disregards entitlement scales in this case.


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## Nfld Sapper (23 Aug 2008)

Well it also seems that CFLRS disregards scales when they ask for alot of land items back when you are finished there (Vern can confirm this) [i.e. rain jackets, etc]


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## armyvern (23 Aug 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> Well it also seems that CFLRS disregards scales when they ask for alot of land items back when you are finished there (Vern can confirm this) [i.e. rain jackets, etc]



CLS has a whole document out with directives as to the current handling procedures for Army Op clothing ... with Saint Jean having been deemed the first CF priority, Gagetown as priority number two.

This document clearly lays out why, and an authority, for Saint Jean to take back kit items from field soldiers departing their location --- even those coming to this location to receive land training. All that does is double our workload, as we need to take back in Saint Jean and then immediately re-issue the exact same kit items as soon as the troops arrive in Gagetown so that a 'cease training' situation on career courses is avoided ... but _that_ obviously made sense to someone out there. I know that it's been received at LFDTS months ago, they were cc'd when I got mine - this situation shouldn't be a surprise anymore to anyone in the Army.

And, we can only re-issue if we can get the kit here, being a lower priority than Saint Jean of course to actually send us stock to issue of the criticly short kit items . Can you say "Command Loan Pools" are the norm these days rather than the exception? The Land Force is just not getting enough kit into the system quick enough to handle it's increased recruiting tempo.

I just forward that document now when an RSM or course staff call me to ask ... "why can't my troops have this? They're entitled to it." ... Although, granted, the entire LF CoC should be quite familiar with this document and have already received it. Some, obviously, deleted it from their inboxes without reading it - that's why the Supply CoC is still being bombarded with questions and rants.


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## danchapps (23 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I now know two people who were issued 2 berets. Yourself and Med below.



Hey Vern, you may want to make that 3, plus the rest of the folks on my BMQ platoon. I know the scale says 1. I've seen it myself, many times as well. They gave us two when I was there, we even had to display the 2nd beret in our locker layout for inspections. I have no idea what happens in St-Jean clothing, but when I was in Borden we had a lotof headaches because of them.


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## Disenchantedsailor (25 Aug 2008)

After having thought about this for a while, could the second beret be one the same scal of issue as things like running shoes and towels,   issued one in a lifetime only, that would certainly explain the discrepency between what is issued and what is entitled.


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## Adamant (25 Aug 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I now know two people who were issued 2 berets. Yourself and Med below.



You can add another 13 to that list, as every green trade on my BOTC was issued two.  

During inspection, one was on their head and one was in the closet on the top shelf, matching the placement of my wedge and the Navy guys cap.

As this all being WAY out of my lane, I wouldn't even fathom a guess as two why the entitlement is one and the issue is 2.


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## danchapps (25 Aug 2008)

Adamant said:
			
		

> You can add another 13 to that list, as every green trade on my BOTC was issued two.
> 
> During inspection, one was on their head and one was in the closet on the top shelf, matching the placement of my wedge and the Navy guys cap.
> 
> As this all being WAY out of my lane, I wouldn't even fathom a guess as two why the entitlement is one and the issue is 2.





			
				Chapeski said:
			
		

> I have no idea what happens in St-Jean clothing, but when I was in Borden we had a lot of headaches because of them.



St-Jean Clothing seems to do their own thing. I'm not there, haven't worked there, but odd things happen there. When they let you keep muck lucks but not a combat scarf, well, that's just bizarre. Also, when troops exchange boots they don't bring in the young troopies to try them on before they are issued, and often they find out too late, or in the field that they have ill-fitting boots. (I found out the hard way, messed up my feet due to too small of a boot).


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## BinRat55 (26 Aug 2008)

Chapeski said:
			
		

> St-Jean Clothing seems to do their own thing.... but odd things happen there. ....that's just bizarre.



Now THERE'S an understatement!!


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## geo (26 Aug 2008)

Umm... is the problem with the Clothing stores OR is the problem with the recruit instructors ???

Methinks that the instructors contribute heavily to the mayhem


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## danchapps (26 Aug 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Now THERE'S an understatement!!


Glad I'm not the only one that was on the receiving end their mess(')



			
				geo said:
			
		

> Umm... is the problem with the Clothing stores OR is the problem with the recruit instructors ???
> 
> Methinks that the instructors contribute heavily to the mayhem



I think it's a combination of both. The instructors want a second headdress out for inspection, and the Clothing stores hand them out. I know they have many civies that work there, so they can say no to the instructors if they are asked directly for a second beret. No skin off their back. I guess we'll never really know.


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## geo (26 Aug 2008)

Once you are in, you can order berets "online" from Logistek-Unicorp... entitlement of 2 per year IIRC.

Storeman / instructor problem is with the ill fitting boots.


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## Klc (26 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> I now know two people who were issued 2 berets. Yourself and Med below.



Uhh.. you may have to add the 54 from my BMQ 2 years ago, as well as every other recruit in CFLRS at the time -- In fact, the second beret is actually in the locker layout, so It didn't seem like a new thing... I believe my coursemates on POET from Borden and Meaford BMQ's had the same.


And on the cap badge topic - I know I had to buy every single signals capbadge I own from the kitshop in Kingston. And my buttons and collar dogs. And the signals metal shoulder tabs, AND the slip on for my DEUs. Cost something like 70 bucks on my 3's to get my kit up to standard.

Then again, that was the same QM that told me to take my uniform to a civvie tailor since I lost weight and it had gotten too big for me. AND that refused to issue a gas mask carrier to me, even when I was no longer a student at CFSCE. - I have yet to check here in Shilo to see if they are any better.


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## aesop081 (26 Sep 2008)

Klc said:
			
		

> And my buttons and collar dogs. And the signals metal shoulder tabs, AND the slip on for my DEUs. Cost something like 70 bucks on my 3's to get my kit up to standard.



So ?


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## armyvern (26 Sep 2008)

Klc said:
			
		

> Uhh.. you may have to add the 54 from my BMQ 2 years ago, as well as every other recruit in CFLRS at the time -- In fact, the second beret is actually in the locker layout, so It didn't seem like a new thing... I believe my coursemates on POET from Borden and Meaford BMQ's had the same.
> 
> And on the cap badge topic - I know I had to buy every single signals capbadge I own from the kitshop in Kingston. And my buttons and collar dogs. And the signals metal shoulder tabs, AND the slip on for my DEUs. Cost something like 70 bucks on my 3's to get my kit up to standard.
> 
> Then again, that was the same QM that told me to take my uniform to a civvie tailor since I lost weight and it had gotten too big for me. AND that refused to issue a gas mask carrier to me, even when I was no longer a student at CFSCE. - I have yet to check here in Shilo to see if they are any better.



1) Good. The entitlement is ONE each. Nuff said - if you got two --- lucky you too. I DO NOT give a fuck how many you got --- you ARE only entitled to one. 'Nuff said.

2) That's right. Already discussed in another thread by me today (what are the odds?? Look at my post history to find it - I'm not linking you) - weight gain/loss by members due to non-medical reasons equals = DEU replacement/altering at their own expense.

3) Gas mask carriers - have been on and off the OPERATIONALY restricted list for years and years now. They were right - you're wrong. Do a search of this site and you'll see that.

Nope, they are not any better there in Shilo - they're still Ops restricted. 

Have a great day. 

Anything else you'd like to blame me for while you're here?

Oh ... the signals cap badge -- Do a damn search and you'll find the reasoning posted here already ... about your cap badge and a whole bunch damn more. I'm NOT doing it for you. I'm off. I've adressed the VERY same issues many many times on this site --- start searching.

And, about your collar dogs etc too: ...

Do a search!!

The answers here, and I'm not searching for you because you're too lazy to do that. I've already answered/explained the capbadge/collar gog/shoulder title/rank issue at least 25 times on this site. No more.


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## armyvern (26 Sep 2008)

Oh PS: It cost me 70 bucks just for my rank badges for my Mess Kit ... one day - you'll get over it.


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## aesop081 (26 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Oh PS: It cost me 70 bucks just for my rank badges for my Mess Kit ... one day - you'll get over it.



Nevermind the cost of the rank badges.......the cost of the uniform itself .....ouch !!!


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## Klc (26 Sep 2008)

Wow... I really wasn't trying to blame anything on anybody- and I feel I must say right off the bat that I definitely don't have any problems with the people in the supply world, whatsoever.

I never said I was entitled to more then one. I said that we all have more than one. 'Lucky' everyone I know who joined in the last 2 years.

As for the unrelated venting I unfortunately spewed out (mostly caused by me getting several blasts of poo for not having a gasmask carrier in the field; and the subsequent 3 blasts of a horn signifying my impending 'death')

2. Actually this was the one thing I did do so far since I got here. They apparently were in the wrong, but my other set of DEU's have been tailored to fit me again now - free of charge.

3. That is what I thought, as the board at the Kingston QM said. However - no matter how much I search on the DIN, I can't find a regulation pertaining to this. I've been ordered to go to QM on Monday - with my masterjack in tow - to pick up a gasmask carrier, to prove that I lied about not being able to get one issued; I've been told that corrective actions will follow for my lack of integrity.


All I was saying is (and shortly after posting I did read the OTHER cap badge thread) that if these are regulations,  my CoC; who tell me that I am full of poop when I tell them why I don't have a gasmask carrier, or why I don't have a second beret (no capbadge on it); are not at all aware of them, and act as if they have never heard of this before.

I'd PM you asking for some direction on where to start my search for some sort of official reg to show WHY I couldn't get the carrier - but I don't exactly think it would be welcome. I will continue to search official sources on my own.



Again, my apologies for posting on what are not only obviously sensitive issues, but completely unrelated to above discussion without extensive research on THIS site. 


P.S. - The $70 was a surprise required purchase that not only did I not budget for, but could not afford at the time. *that* and only that was my point of contention on that issue.


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## fire_guy686 (26 Sep 2008)

Klc said:
			
		

> And on the cap badge topic - I know I had to buy every single signals capbadge I own from the kitshop in Kingston. And my buttons and collar dogs. And the signals metal shoulder tabs, AND the slip on for my DEUs. Cost something like 70 bucks on my 3's to get my kit up to standard.



The kit shop prices obviously went up a little bit. I got the same stuff, minus cap badge, from the kit shop for half of what you paid when I was there.


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## BinRat55 (27 Sep 2008)

Klc said:
			
		

> And on the cap badge topic - I know I had to buy every single signals capbadge I own from the kitshop in Kingston. And my buttons and collar dogs. And the signals metal shoulder tabs, AND the slip on for my DEUs. Cost something like 70 bucks on my 3's to get my kit up to standard.
> 
> Then again, that was the same QM that told me to take my uniform to a civvie tailor since I lost weight and it had gotten too big for me. AND that refused to issue a gas mask carrier to me, even when I was no longer a student at CFSCE. - I have yet to check here in Shilo to see if they are any better.





Please don't start your career with a chip on your shoulder. We all have jobs to do and that means following orders and directives. When Clothing Stores says no to you - there's a reason and they are not making it up. If you don't agree with a decision made at the front counter, ask to speak to a higher rank and question it respectfully there. But if you are told the same answer by the higher rank - accept the answer you are given.


----------



## BinRat55 (27 Sep 2008)

Klc said:
			
		

> 2. Actually this was the one thing I did do so far since I got here. They apparently were in the wrong, but my other set of DEU's have been tailored to fit me again now - free of charge.
> 
> 3. That is what I thought, as the board at the Kingston QM said. However - no matter how much I search on the DIN, I can't find a regulation pertaining to this. I've been ordered to go to QM on Monday - with my masterjack in tow - to pick up a gasmask carrier, to prove that I lied about not being able to get one issued; I've been told that corrective actions will follow for my lack of integrity.
> 
> ...



Clothing Stores should have issued you a chit - you can request it as well - as long as the entitlement exists and the kit doesn't.  As for the DEU issue, you are entitled to free exchange of initial issue for a full year after enrollment - after that you are on your own.

Vern WILL accept a PM from you (as will I) HOWEVER - if you have questions they had better be above board. Vern is a busy busy girl and does not have time to entertain questions that can be answered with a little effort by the individuals. But we are not monsters (well, Vern actually is a monster, but that's an Alert thing...) nor will your head come clean off. If you are in doubt and tried everywhere, ask.


----------



## Disenchantedsailor (27 Sep 2008)

70 Bucks for accoutrements, what did you have 30 slip ons, really man,  I dont think I've spent 70 bucks on kit in the last year.   Usually your initial issue comes from the CE Branch fund after that your on your own for accoutrements.  As for the tailoring issue, simple,  they only have to tailor it on the queens dime once, Like binrat said if its in your first year exchange it and you will get yet another first time tailoring of a new tunic.  Welcome to life in the army,   just be glad you don't have to buy messkit.


----------



## BinRat55 (27 Sep 2008)

I find it hard to beleive that someone pays for slip on's... am I missing something here? Who actually charges for slip on's - what kind are they?


----------



## aesop081 (27 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> I find it hard to beleive that someone pays for slip on's...



Was the same for me in 1993. Had to buy the "new gold" (DEU) and "old gold" ( garison dress) slip-ons that had "GENIE" on them as oposed to "CANADA". The when i got posted to my first unit, i had to buy them again but with "ENGINEERS" because it was an ELU !!!!

Back then it was $30 (IIRC) and we got one of each set of slip-ons, the engineer parade belt buckle , collar dogs, and shoulder titles ( that had had to buy again in english...urghh).


----------



## dangerboy (27 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> I find it hard to beleive that someone pays for slip on's... am I missing something here? Who actually charges for slip on's - what kind are they?



When I first got in we had to buy the PPCLI flash for our garrison dress and the ones for the CF shirts.  We then took them over to the tailor and she sewed them over the CANADA flash, but that was over 10 years ago have to check the kitshop Monday see if that is still the policy.


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## SupersonicMax (27 Sep 2008)

klc, get used to paying stuff... Everytime I change unit I have to buy 42$ worth of patches (6X7$, 3 for 1 flight suit, 3 for the flight jacket, I've changed units 2 times in the last 2 years) and everytime you get a new qualification, you need to buy 2X that patch as well.  Not everything on your uniform is given to you. Wait until you'll have to buy a mess kit, that will take you 800$ closer to the red (or deeper in the red depending on your financial situation...)


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Umm... is the problem with the Clothing stores OR is the problem with the recruit instructors ???
> 
> Methinks that the instructors contribute heavily to the mayhem


lack 
What they were doing (a year and a half ago before I was posted back to Halifax) for exchanges was having Clothing Stores open a few evening a week until 1930 or so, and recruits would go over after training hours to do their own exchanges.  During the day, exchanges were possible but the recruits would be in their on their own, the Marching NCO wouldn't be with them.

About the CFLRS clothing stores itseld, I can tell you that the place was being run horribly and when I was there, the WO in the shop was ummmm replaced.  Clothing Stores on the Garrison doesn't belong to CFLRS itself, but 5 GSS.  

Personally, I found the instructors to be dropping the ball on the kit issue side, from what I saw up there.  When our BMQ candidates did the kit issue, the kit check proved interesting.   They issue out alot of the kit in black garbage bags, which are supposed to be all the same but aren't.  During the kit check/inspection, 13 of my troops didn't get the thermal canteen (proper name?) and the LS wrote down "13 winter canteen" on a piece of paper.  I said "what are you doing?".  His reply "we'll get these to you later to give to them".  I said 'I don't f**kin' thing so.  You either amend their documents OR get the missing kit."  The missing kit list was huge, but when we left, the only kit they didn't have was DEU stuff on back order and everyone's docs were correct.  

But the LS and the civie staff were obviously not impressed that they had to do this, not that I personally gave a f**k.  Oddly enough, they had a cash sales up there for recruits to purchase pretty much any item of kit they 'lost'.  I'd like to have all the $ from recruits who had to purchase stuff they signed for, but had never really been issued initially with that dickhead LS from Clothing writing lists out and never actually getting the kit to the troops, who walked out being ordered to sign their name despite missing kit.

They tried some of the same stuff with me, handing me a bag of kit and telling me to "sign here".  I said "I will sign once you I can check for each piece of kit, and to see that its actually serviceable to start off with".

I'd stand there for half an hour, watching the 3 civies follow each other around, doing SFA except making the rest of us wait longer.

Soon after I got there, the WO was replaced, a few of the Cpl supply techs were out front way more and the civies did gaggle around and f**k the dog the whole time.

Not sure how it is now but when I was there it was a joke.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> klc, get used to paying stuff... Everytime I change unit I have to buy 42$ worth of patches (6X7$, 3 for 1 flight suit, 3 for the flight jacket, I've changed units 2 times in the last 2 years) and everytime you get a new qualification, you need to buy 2X that patch as well.  Not everything on your uniform is given to you. Wait until you'll have to buy a mess kit, that will take you 800$ closer to the red (or deeper in the red depending on your financial situation...)



My own personal opinion is that if the CF requires me to wear it, then the CF should provide it.  Now I know thats not the way it is, and I know I'll have to buy my own patches too and I'll just do it like everyone else (small price to pay to be in the best MOCs in the CF IMO).  

If its part of the uniform, the troops should be issued it, not have to pay for it.  I too bought all my Regimental collar/shoulder dogs, buttons, etc.  I just never thought it made sense.  The CF shouldn't order people to wear something that they have to pay for out of pocket, those items should be in the supply system IMO.  

If they decide to buy something better (berets is an example, when the ones from Logistik were crap) then all the power to them.


----------



## George Wallace (27 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My own personal opinion is that if the CF requires me to wear it, then the CF should provide it.  Now I know thats not the way it is, and I know I'll have to buy my own patches too and I'll just do it like everyone else (small price to pay to be in the best MOCs in the CF IMO).



You are wrong.  The CF does require you to wear it, and the CF does supply you with the Buttons and badges to wear.  It is the Units/Branches who demand you wear their accoutraments, not the generic CF ones.  Some Units do give an initial "Free Issue" of Regimental accoutraments, for one set of DEU.  If the individual wants more they must purchase them out of their own pocket.

So, it is not the CF that is not providing, but the Unit/Branch.


----------



## SupersonicMax (27 Sep 2008)

Isn't the Unit/Branch representing the CFs?  What about my flight suits, what am I supposed to wear on the shoulders/name tags?  I've never seen any issued badges for flight suits.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2008)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> You are wrong.  The CF does require you to wear it, and the CF does supply you with the Buttons and badges to wear.  It is the Units/Branches who demand you wear their accoutraments, not the generic CF ones.  Some Units do give an initial "Free Issue" of Regimental accoutraments, for one set of DEU.  If the individual wants more they must purchase them out of their own pocket.
> 
> So, it is not the CF that is not providing, but the Unit/Branch.



Those units are part of the CF though.   ;D

Regardless, if it is something demanded to be worn, it should be provided to the member FOC is my point.  As I said, I know its not that way and...well, thats not likely to change.   8)


----------



## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Isn't the Unit/Branch representing the CFs?  What about my flight suits, what am I supposed to wear on the shoulders/name tags?  I've never seen any issued badges for flight suits.



Which is one example...the one I was thinking of that always pi**ed me off was the Regimental buckles for the old garrison dress (paint by numbers style) for the black belt that 1 week after we all bought them, the directive came out that the belt was no longer to be worn, but we couldn't get the $ back for this stupid buckle, which I still have in my kit somewheres  :

I agree with the initial issue and then you replace out of pocket if you loose it/exchange it if it becomes N/S.


----------



## aesop081 (27 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My own personal opinion is that if the CF requires me to wear it, then the CF should provide it. Now I know thats not the way it is, and I know I'll have to buy my own patches too and I'll just do it like everyone else (small price to pay to be in the best MOCs in the CF IMO).



You are *NOT* required to wear the unit heraldic on the flightsuit. You are *not* required to wear an aircraft badge on your flightsuit. You are *NOT* required to wear a Sqn nametag on your flightsuit. Dress regulations only require you to wear rank badges, wings and name tag, all of which are provided by the system


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## SupersonicMax (27 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator, then they should ammend our Squadron order.  They do require us to have the Unit, Aircraft and name tag.


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## aesop081 (27 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> CDN Aviator, then they should ammend our Squadron order.  They do require us to have the Unit, Aircraft and name tag.



I have the 1 CAD orders printed and posted at work. What i posted here is current 1 CAD policy. I'm flying tomorow night, i will get an electronic copy of the oder and post it here monday.


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## Eye In The Sky (27 Sep 2008)

CDN Aviator said:
			
		

> You are *NOT* required to wear the unit heraldic on the flightsuit. You are *not* required to wear an aircraft badge on your flightsuit. You are *NOT* required to wear a Sqn nametag on your flightsuit. Dress regulations only require you to wear rank badges, wings and name tag, all of which are provided by the system



The sqn crest is required here, if you follow the Wing Dress Instructions (not that everyone does).  I haven't gotten to 406 yet so I don't know if they give them out or not.  Time well tell I guess.

I'm not talking only about name tags for flight suits (I don't have a problem paying for them, considering all the good things about being aircrew).  The poster who had to shell out his/her own $ for a Jimmy cap badge, I don't care if its 2 bucks or 20 bucks...he/she shouldn't have to pay for a capbadge.  

And that stupid garrison belt buckle I still have that cost me $20 way back when....


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## Disenchantedsailor (27 Sep 2008)

He should have had 1 Jimmy cap badge issued, through the system, the rest are his to purchase. Same goes for branch accoutrements,   I don't recall paying for my initial issue when I was a Jimmy.   As for the rest, unit crests, name tapes, floater jacket name tapes, ball caps, never paid for those either.


----------



## armyvern (27 Sep 2008)

Klc said:
			
		

> As for the unrelated venting I unfortunately spewed out (mostly caused by me getting several blasts of poo for not having a gasmask carrier in the field; and the subsequent 3 blasts of a horn signifying my impending 'death')
> 
> All I was saying is (and shortly after posting I did read the OTHER cap badge thread) that if these are regulations,  my CoC; who tell me that I am full of poop when I tell them why I don't have a gasmask carrier, or why I don't have a second beret (no capbadge on it); are not at all aware of them, and act as if they have never heard of this before.


Then tell your CoC to talk to their G4s ... because the G4s in every LF Area HQ --- got it at the same time that I did due to my linkage with Clothing Stores; I then got it from the 3 ASG G4, the CTC G4 ... I've gotten it lots of times in my CoC. Seems things may not be passed on in this case as they should be within yours.

It's dated 13 April 2008, and it's called the "*Land Force Commander's Operational Clothing Plan*". It's pretty hard to miss - tell them to call clothing and ask for a copy, then ask them to inquire why they didn't get it down the CoC like they should have.



> I'd PM you asking for some direction on where to start my search for some sort of official reg to show WHY I couldn't get the carrier - but I don't exactly think it would be welcome. I will continue to search official sources on my own.
> 
> P.S. - The $70 was a surprise required purchase that not only did I not budget for, but could not afford at the time. *that* and only that was my point of contention on that issue.



You wouldn't be the first to PM me, you won't be the last. I just gave you your answer. The could also just go on the DIN and download the latest D01-301 Land Force Field Operational Clothing and Equipment Table --- where the "notes" & remarks next to "Carrier, Gas mask, quite clearly state "Restricted to International Operations."

Likewise, they just just go in to see your Unit QM staff, have the QM/CQ/RQ/SQ/TQ/Log O (whoever!!) log in to the CFSS and type in the stock number for the carrier ... then just "review item description" to see it written there.

They have LogOs ... why aren't they using them?


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## armyvern (27 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> But the LS and the civie staff were obviously not impressed that they had to do this, not that I personally gave a f**k.  Oddly enough, they had a cash sales up there for recruits to purchase pretty much any item of kit they 'lost'.  I'd like to have all the $ from recruits who had to purchase stuff they signed for, but had never really been issued initially with that dickhead LS from Clothing writing lists out and never actually getting the kit to the troops, who walked out being ordered to sign their name despite missing kit.
> 
> They tried some of the same stuff with me, handing me a bag of kit and telling me to "sign here".  I said "I will sign once you I can check for each piece of kit, and to see that its actually serviceable to start off with".



That's why every time a course comes through here for an issue --- I tell them right off the bat during their brief "tick the item off as you get it, if you don't know what it is ... ask. It saves you time and money in the end."

Damn, I actually miss working there.


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## armyvern (27 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> My own personal opinion is that if the CF requires me to wear it, then the CF should provide it.  Now I know thats not the way it is, and I know I'll have to buy my own patches too and I'll just do it like everyone else (small price to pay to be in the best MOCs in the CF IMO).
> 
> If its part of the uniform, the troops should be issued it, not have to pay for it.  I too bought all my Regimental collar/shoulder dogs, buttons, etc.  I just never thought it made sense.  The CF shouldn't order people to wear something that they have to pay for out of pocket, those items should be in the supply system IMO.
> 
> If they decide to buy something better (berets is an example, when the ones from Logistik were crap) then all the power to them.



You mean of course ... if your trade requires you to wear, your trade should pay for it.

It's not the CF that requires you to wear "UnitXXX" on your DEU slip ons, tunic buttons etc; it's your unit. Likewise those trade specific ones.

If the "CF" makes you wear it --- we issue it at clothing (provided of course that the *&%%&^$% contract hadn't expired TWO fucking years ago and we're STILL waiting to get some action on those cap badges despite all my writing to the SM and making them fully aware this is NOT an acceptable situation and is VERY bad for morale. Do you hear that Mr. K? Giddy up already.


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## armyvern (27 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Isn't the Unit/Branch representing the CFs?  What about my flight suits, what am I supposed to wear on the shoulders/name tags?  I've never seen any issued badges for flight suits.



Each Unit wants to have their individual stuff ... therefore individuals get to pay for it (or, in the case of "nice" Units, use regimental funds (ie not taxpayers money to provide an initial issue of it).

The CF provides accoutrements for the "Team" - that being the "Army", "Navy", and "Air Force" ... don't like lions for buttons, use the kit shop as they say.


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## PuckChaser (27 Sep 2008)

ArtyNewbie said:
			
		

> He should have had 1 Jimmy cap badge issued, through the system, the rest are his to purchase. Same goes for branch accoutrements,   I don't recall paying for my initial issue when I was a Jimmy.



System didn't have capbadges for a while, and it was a crap shoot to find a base that still had stock of them. Kingston finally has some, as of Thursday (unless they all got taken then), and the berets will get done overnight.

Only branch thing I had to buy was Jimmy buttons for the DEU, but I've never seen a written order that said I needed them, just didn't want to rock the boat.


----------



## Run away gun (27 Sep 2008)

PuckChaser said:
			
		

> Only branch thing I had to buy was Jimmy buttons for the DEU, but I've never seen a written order that said I needed them, just didn't want to rock the boat.



Watching someone try that on a QL3 would be amusing.


----------



## TCBF (27 Sep 2008)

geo said:
			
		

> Umm... is the problem with the Clothing stores OR is the problem with the recruit instructors ???
> 
> Methinks that the instructors contribute heavily to the mayhem



- Well, I taught at CFRS Cornwallis from 1984 to 1986 (put 500 recruits through) and taught at CFLRS from 1996 to March 1999 (didn't count).  Mayhem was my middle name! But not during kit issue:

Cornwallis: as Pl Comd, signed for 120 Barrack Boxes and enough winter kit to equip 120 recruits. We issued the winter kit in the Platoon barracks (each male platoon had it's own building).  Base QM (a few old Guardsmen and such who knew their jobs VERY well) did the CF, Combats and Work Dress issue.  Problems were easily rectified, as far as my experience went.

St.Jean: Base QM did everything.  Liason between the QM and the staff of the Recruit and BOTC courses was pretty good, as far as my experience went.

Two berets? Don't remember.  Who cares?  Why would I want to inspect a second beret when I have Recruits who can't shine shoes or iron shirts (or march, or shoot, or count, or read and write, or speak at least one of the two official languages... 

Mess Kit: Go price a pair of Wellingtons with installed spur boxes, and spurs.

Regimental accoutrements:  Flashback to late seventies: Regimental Parade, Seems like all of us are being told our (non-CF issue) Regimental ascots are faded/worn/torn/shrunk/etc. and to buy a new one at the Regtl Kit Shop ASAP.  Kit shop is miraculously open and selling out it's considerable stock like hotcakes.  Three days later we are informed that the CF dress policy has changed and Regtl ascots will not - NOT - be worn with ANY order of dress.   ... Coincidence, you say?


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## medaid (27 Sep 2008)

The only thing I had to buy when I was green was 1) Beret, Silk band, Belgique

2) Buttons, DEU, Medical Branch

3) Cap badge, Officer, Wire

That cost me a whopping...$30 the most expensive thing was the capbadge. I took pride in my branch and my MOC so I went out and bought the nice ones on my own. Sure I had the issued one, and that went quickly in my FMP. 

I guess it's a pride thing. I am proud to be serving in a particular branch, unit, regiment. If I was AF I'd get my patches without complaint because it's pride. 

When I got my NCDs I didn't have any nametapes, and I knew they would take a few weeks to get to me. So instead of looking like an idiot without a nametape, I went out and purchased them. Could I not have done that? Sure. But again... It's... A pride thing.


----------



## PuckChaser (28 Sep 2008)

Run away gun said:
			
		

> Watching someone try that on a QL3 would be amusing.



Yep, as a young private it was not on my priority list to question things like that.  ;D


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Sep 2008)

MedTech said:
			
		

> The only thing I had to buy when I was green was 1) Beret, Silk band, Belgique
> 
> 2) Buttons, DEU, Medical Branch
> 
> ...



You don't have to spend your own $ to have pride in your uniform.  I do and always have had pride in my uniform (I too bought my Regimental buttons, brass cap badge, etc) but I disagree with anything being 'required' that a young troop has to pay for.


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## Nfld Sapper (28 Sep 2008)

The only things I purchased for the DEU's was my Branch buttons, Branch flashing for the Shirt slip ons, and eventually the Branch Cerenmonial Belt Buckle. Everthing else was issued from Clothing. No idea why they made you buy every out of pocket. ???


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## geo (28 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> The only things I purchased for the DEU's was my Branch buttons, Branch flashing for the Shirt slip ons, and eventually the Branch Cerenmonial Belt Buckle. Everthing else was issued from Clothing. No idea why they made you buy every out of pocket. ???


and when you become an officer OR sr NCO
CME Cloth cap badge, & for mess kits: Cloth collar dogs, buttons, studs & cuff links, gold wire rank badges... yada, yada, yada


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## BinRat55 (28 Sep 2008)

Mess kit is not a requirement for NCM's. Only a white shirt and a bow tie is the cost of a required NCM mess dress... If an NCM "chooses" to purchase mess kit they "choose" to purchase all the accoutrement's too.


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## armyvern (28 Sep 2008)

NFLD Sapper said:
			
		

> The only things I purchased for the DEU's was my Branch buttons, Branch flashing for the Shirt slip ons, and eventually the Branch Cerenmonial Belt Buckle. Everthing else was issued from Clothing. No idea why they made you buy every out of pocket. ???



If someone wants to argue/insinuate that I don't have "pride" in my trade or my uniform because I don't wear "Logistical" buttons on it or slip-ons purchased from the kit-shop ...

Bring it on.

I wear Army Lions with pride, and I'm quite sure that I'm a pretty proud Supply tech and Loggie too. Buttons and badges do not for "pride" make - attitude and respect for one's uniform and Country does - regardless of which buttons happen to be worn on it.


----------



## armyvern (28 Sep 2008)

BinRat55 said:
			
		

> Mess kit is not a requirement for NCM's. Only a white shirt and a bow tie is the cost of a required NCM mess dress... If an NCM "chooses" to purchase mess kit they "choose" to purchase all the accoutrement's too.



True.

However, it again is "strongly encouraged" (NOT mandatory - thus STILL voluntary) for NCMs once they surpass that Snr NCO rank level (Sgts) and become Warrant Officers.

"Strongly encouraged" does not equal "mandatory". 

And, I've seen a Sgt sucessfully argue that he could not be "forced" to purchase with his own money a white shirt and bow tie either if it were indeed "mandatory for wear".


----------



## SupersonicMax (28 Sep 2008)

BinRat, can you find the reference where it says its a requirement for officers??  I've been looking but can't find..

Vern:  showing your colors is showing pride in your unit. .  Same goes with flying units with badges and this goes all the way back to WW1 flying units.   That's probably the number 1 reason flying units (fighter squadrons particularly) always want to wear color badges instead of the mandatory subdued badges.  It shows their colors.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> True.
> 
> However, it again is "strongly encouraged" (NOT mandatory - thus STILL voluntary) for NCMs once they surpass that Snr NCO rank level (Sgts) and become Warrant Officers.
> 
> ...



Which leads to a question of why are white tux shirts and black bow ties not added to the list of non-operational clothing available using our points on Logistik Unicorps?  Problem solved.


----------



## armyvern (28 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> BinRat, can you find the reference where it says its a requirement for officers??  I've been looking but can't find..
> 
> Vern:  showing your colors is showing pride in your unit. .  Same goes with flying units with badges and this goes all the way back to WW1 flying units.   That's probably the number 1 reason flying units (fighter squadrons particularly) always want to wear color badges instead of the mandatory subdued badges.  It shows their colors.



SSM,

Let me assure you that I most certainly DO have pride in my uniform, my trade, and my branch DESPITE the fact that I do NOT wear it's buttons.

One does NOT need badges and buttons to show pride; they might be "nice to haves", but they are far from "NECESSARY" to haves.  If you won't have any "pride" in your Unit or trade without a button or a badge --- that'd be your problem, not mine.


----------



## SupersonicMax (28 Sep 2008)

Vern:  I don't need them to HAVE pride, but it SHOWS that I have pride in my unit.  2 different concepts.


----------



## Eye In The Sky (28 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> BinRat, can you find the reference where it says its a requirement for officers??  I've been looking but can't find..



The only reference in CFP 265 I've ever been able to find is Chapter 6, Annex B Mess Dress - No. 2, Para 5 which states:

5.  No. 2B Order

a.  No. 2B mess service is an optional uniform for wear by the following personnel in preference to No. 3 service dress on occasions when mess dress is considered appropriate:

1.  (1) newly commissioned Regular Force officers during the six months accorded them to obtain mess dress; and

(2) all other members.


I didn't look exhaustively though as...well it doesn't apply to me personally.


----------



## armyvern (28 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Which leads to a question of why are white tux shirts and black bow ties not added to the list of non-operational clothing available using our points on Logistik Unicorps?  Problem solved.



Because Logistik Unicorp supplies DEU uniform parts that are mandatory for wear --- and even at that, they are a CIVILIAN company which makes available to us only those "mandatory" DEU items that they are the manufacturer of.

Your other mandatory DEU items such as cap badges, collar dogs, rank slip-ons that are provided by other contractors don't come from Logisitik either.

The taxpayer does NOT pay for "non-mandatory for wear" items, thus you will NOT find Logisitk-Unicorp providing you with "free tux shirts/bow-ties" using your "taxpayer funded" points. 

In short, if it's mandatory for wear - the Crown will pay, be that by issuing it to you, or by providing it you via points at Logistik etc.

If it's not mandatory for wear ... you pay; that's a choice you make because it's only an "optional for wear item" and is thus not a taxpayer funded item.


----------



## armyvern (28 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> The only reference in CFP 265 I've ever been able to find is Chapter 6, Annex B Mess Dress - No. 2, Para 5 which states:
> 
> 5.  No. 2B Order
> 
> ...



Mess Dress is "optional" for wear by Officers of the Reg F during their first 6 months after commissioning; after 6 months it is no longer "optional", as they've had their 6 months grace period to obtain it.


----------



## SupersonicMax (28 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern, then a follow up questions ref your last 2 posts.  You stated :



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> In short, if it's mandatory for wear - the Crown will pay, be that by issuing it to you, or by providing it you via points at Logistik etc.
> 
> If it's not mandatory for wear ... you pay; that's a choice you make because it's only an "optional for wear item" and is thus not a taxpayer funded item.



and



			
				ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Mess Dress is "optional" for wear by Officers of the Reg F during their first 6 months after commissioning; after 6 months it is no longer "optional", as they've had their 6 months grace period to obtain it.



So, wouldn't the Crown be supposed to pay for it 6 months after commissionning?


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## armyvern (28 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Vern:  I don't need them to HAVE pride, but it SHOWS that I have pride in my unit.  2 different concepts.



And, the concept that you "don't NEED it" is exactly why the Crown doesn't pay for it. Simple enough concept for you now? You've just admitted that you don't "need" it.

Concept 1: If you "NEED" it, the Crown will pay/provide for you;

Concept 2: If you don't "NEED" it, the Crown will not ... it's a "nice" to have, not a "necessary" to have.


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## SupersonicMax (28 Sep 2008)

I was talking about color patches which aren't even allowed anyways.  However, my subdued patches are mandatory to wear on my flying suit, according to my Squadron Orders.


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Mess Dress is "optional" for wear by Officers of the Reg F during their first 6 months after commissioning; after 6 months it is no longer "optional", as they've had their 6 months grace period to obtain it.



Roger, I get that...I think what SSM is looking for is the reference that says "Officers in the Regular Force shall purchase Mess Kit IAW their DEU ..." or that states what you posted, and I've never been able to find that, only what I posted above.

Taking into consideration your reply to the 'mandatory/required' vice 'optional' items of clothing for wear...if a Mess Kit is not 'optional' for Commissioned Members, how come it is not provided to the mbr?  If Mess Kits are not optional for some mbrs, then that should be provided to those mbr?


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## armyvern (28 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> I was talking about color patches which aren't even allowed anyways.  However, my subdued patches are mandatory to wear on my flying suit, according to my Squadron Orders.



Your Squadron Orders which, has already been pointed out to you, are in complete contradiction of *NATIONAL 1 CAD *Directives and Orders.

I'd be taking the CO who is overruling 1 CAD Policy the receipt and asking when he's re-imbursing you from his wallet for his "making" you buy those patchs despite 1 CAD policy that states that he can't do such a thing.

Last time I checked, Sqn CO couldn't over-rule national policy - we have a CoC in place for a reason.


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## SupersonicMax (28 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> And, the concept that you "don't NEED it" is exactly why the Crown doesn't pay for it. Simple enough concept for you now? You've just admitted that you don't "need" it.
> 
> Concept 1: If you "NEED" it, the Crown will pay/provide for you;
> 
> Concept 2: If you don't "NEED" it, the Crown will not ... it's a "nice" to have, not a "necessary" to have.



Okay, but need is broad.  The crown will pay if you need it for a purpose.  What's that purpose?  Because I have tons of kit I don't need to carry my duties in my day to day work and the Supply won't take it back...  You have to be more specific 

FYI:  I'm just playing the devil's advocate.  I'm just trying to get to understand the system better.   I do have a mess kit (which was okay for me to pay) and I don't mind paying for my badges/accoutrements.


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## armyvern (28 Sep 2008)

Eye In The Sky said:
			
		

> Roger, I get that...I think what SSM is looking for is the reference that says "Officers in the Regular Force shall purchase Mess Kit IAW their DEU ..." or that states what you posted, and I've never been able to find that, only what I posted above.
> 
> Taking into consideration your reply to the 'mandatory/required' vice 'optional' items of clothing for wear...if a Mess Kit is not 'optional' for Commissioned Members, how come it is not provided to the mbr?  If Mess Kits are not optional for some mbrs, then that should be provided to those mbr?



Because the RegF Officer Corps themselves have deemed it mandatory for wear by their members 6 months after commissioning date; not the CF.

Note how it is not applicable to the Officer Corps of the ResF for example.


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## armyvern (28 Sep 2008)

SupersonicMax said:
			
		

> Okay, but need is broad.  The crown will pay if you need it for a purpose.  What's that purpose?  Because I have tons of kit I don't need to carry my duties in my day to day work and the Supply won't take it back...  You have to be more specific
> 
> FYI:  I'm just playing the devil's advocate.  I'm just trying to get to understand the system better.   I do have a mess kit (which was okay for me to pay) and I don't mind paying for my badges/accoutrements.



Play devil's advocate with someone else.

You don't "NEED" badges to "HAVE" pride or accomplish your tasks, responsibilities and duties to Crown and Country. 

And, regarding that kit that you have been issued ... you may well one day get off your high-horse and require it in the performance of your duties. You may not need it in your current day to day job, but the fact that you have it means that it may one day BE required for your job. We don't all get to ride the desk etc forever you know ...


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## Eye In The Sky (28 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Because the RegF Officer Corps themselves have deemed it mandatory for wear by their members 6 months after commissioning date; not the CF.
> 
> Note how it is not applicable to the Officer Corps of the ResF for example.



But I am not saying what part of the CF deems it a requirement.   If a 'part' of the CF is saying you have to have one and its written in Canadian Forces  Dress Instructions (which is the case for Mess Kit for our Commissioned folks), then that is a requirement of the CF, no?  So if a unit RSM tells a bunch of Privates that have to have XYZ, they really don't have an option do they?  In the spirit of the meaning as I am presenting it, those soldiers are paying for something 'required of them by the CF'.  So for the sake of this discussion, when I say "CF" I mean any component of the CF, whether is be the CF, one of the Environments, a Corps/Branch, a unit, etc.  "Anything other than personal preference".

A good example I think of was our cap badges; we could get issued the anadized one, or we would purchase a brass one out of pocket.  I had no issue with paying for my brass, its the things I didn't have the option for, but were told I "had to have" that always made me frown alittle.  Personally, I always have and always will buy what I think is the standard I would like for my own uniform.  I bought a cloth band beret well over a decade ago, my brass cap badge, Regimental "this and thats" for my DEU, clickers for my parade boots, AF CADPAT name tapes when I OTd,etc.  But that has (mostly) always been by choice.

I just know there are troops out there who aren't, in reality, given an honest option to NOT have things (ie they will suffer the consequences of not having it) and have to pay for it, and I'd be curious to see how much $$ collectively that is worth across the CF per annum.

It has to be one way or the other; required or optional, period.  If its optional, it should be out of pocket, and the mbr's who do not purchase the items should not be held to task for it (which they will be).


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## medaid (28 Sep 2008)

ArmyVern said:
			
		

> Note how it is not applicable to the Officer Corps of the ResF for example.



Not mandatory for PRes Members at all. Except it's frowned upon if you're a Snr Lt or a Capt without a Mess Dress.

But that's all they do. They frown.


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## R013 (21 Jan 2009)

Whats wrong with purchasing buttons, cap badges, collar dogs, mess kit or anything not available in the system???  If money is the issue i have to say bull s**t.  How many times have we "members of the forces" been on course and paid TD, FOA or a claim for a trip the well exceeded our expeditures. So don't tell me that $$ is a issue....I'm talking about PRIDE IN SERVICE...pride in ones self to dress smartly.  So public funds does not cover cost out of kit shops...WHO CARES...from all the courses iv been on....FOA and the other cash the army gives me has more than paid for the extras.


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## BinRat55 (21 Jan 2009)

R013 said:
			
		

> Whats wrong with purchasing buttons, cap badges, collar dogs, mess kit or anything not available in the system???  If money is the issue i have to say bull s**t.  How many times have we "members of the forces" been on course and paid TD, FOA or a claim for a trip the well exceeded our expeditures. So don't tell me that $$ is a issue....I'm talking about PRIDE IN SERVICE...pride in ones self to dress smartly.  So public funds does not cover cost out of kit shops...WHO CARES...from all the courses iv been on....FOA and the other cash the army gives me has more than paid for the extras.



And that's your opinion and you are absolutely entitled to it. My opinion is either way. Money is not an issue and if I were told I had no choice, I wouldn't put up a fight. I enjoy choosing my battles, and to me this is not one worth fighting. Besides, I follow orders.

BUT...

Some people have the opinion (which _they _ are also entitled to) that they don't want to be told to pay for a part of a uniform they were issued in the first place. The argument here is that the shiny buttons and insignia is unit specific, so let the unit pay for it. Some units do. Some don't. Some units enforce the wearing of this kit, some don't. I would however, have to argue on behalf of the young private with little pay, no TD to speak of and all of his/her FOA (assuming they even get FOA) going to pay for the insurance on the piece of crap car they had to buy because of little or no credit / money to buy new... see where i'm going with this?


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## gun runner (22 Mar 2009)

George. I would love to help you out but the pics? you posted are not visible on my monitor, could you describe it maybe?? Ubique


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## JRBond (30 Aug 2011)

This forum has been dead for some time but I have couple questions reference cap badges.

 I am an ROTP Nursing student, however I used to be an MSE Op in the reserves and was qualified to wear the Logistics badge. According to my SEM manual ROTP students are supposed to wear a cornflake until otherwise issued during their phase training. My question would be should I continue to wear my Log badge, revert to my cornflake, or wear a medical officer badge.

My second question is regards this image:

http://www.gcks.ca/catalog/images/AMDofficerscap.jpg

Is this the approved gold wire version of the medical cap badge?


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## MedCorps (30 Aug 2011)

CF Medical Services officers wear the cornflake (or previous service cap badge, in your case Logistics Branch) until they graduate from basic training (BMOQ), as that is when the Branch has accepted you on strength as a BTL Nursing Officer and starts to track you for career management purposes.  Prior to that, if you fail basic officer training (BMOQ) then you will not have been ever considered to be a member of the Medical Branch.   

That is the correct cap badge.  You can get it from the Training Centre in Borden along with a set of button (medical) and slip on's that say MEDICAL that you take to the taylor to get OCdt rank sewn on.  Stores will issue you the MEDICAL titles and collar dogs for your DEU. Let me know if you need a contact by PM. 

Note that this is different for NCM's who are badged in front of the CFHS Memorial at the end of their QL3 Med Tech course. 

MC


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## PuckChaser (30 Aug 2011)

MedCorps said:
			
		

> Note that this is different for NCM's who are badged in front of the CFHS Memorial at the end of their QL3 Med Tech course.



I think that's a great tradition and something more branches should adopt.


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## medicineman (30 Aug 2011)

We just got badged in the drill shed down the road on our grad parade after phase 1 of our 3's...but that was 22 years ago.  Glad they're doing it like that now.

MM


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## MedCorps (30 Aug 2011)

It really is quite the ceremony to see. Occurs after finishing all three phases of QL3 Med Tech training with the 200 odd training days normally the day before grad parade.  Getting your badge with your platoon mates in front of the hundreds of names of our fallen CFHS brothers and sisters from the South African War to Afghanistan is powerful.  The CSM of Topham Company or the TC CWO (if Medical Branch) conduct the ceremony, but all badged members from the Medical Branch are invited to attend to watch.  It is very informal, but strong words about dedication and service before self are said. 

That night the newly badged medics sew the cap badge on and then (mostly) proceed on the piss, with the hopes of exercising enough self control with the drink to make it to grad parade in the morning.  

It is a good tradition, that started in the past two or so years.  We need more traditions like this. 

MC


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## medicineman (31 Aug 2011)

I got badged back when we still had metal badges - we marched up, the cornflake was removed and the snake put on...after the parade, we went outside and "disposed" of the old badges into the field outside of the drill shed.

MM


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## JRBond (31 Aug 2011)

Thank you very much, I appreciate the response.


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