# Older troops assaulting young people, report finds



## ENGINEERS WIFE (8 Mar 2009)

Older troops assaulting young people, report finds
Updated Sun. Mar. 8 2009 3:12 PM ET

The Canadian Press

HALIFAX -- Military police say the Canadian Forces needs to step up its supervision of training facilities after an investigation found alarming levels of sexual assault of young people by older members. 

Officials with the criminal intelligence section say there is a disturbing number of cases involving young people, with sexual assaults against youth making up more than half of the reported sex offences. 

The findings are contained in a draft report obtained by The Canadian Press that was done through the Military Police Criminal Intelligence Program for the period 2004 to June 2008. 

It says the results reinforce the need for continued "rigorous policing of sex offence cases involving children," particularly cadets. 

Of the 219 incidents, it states the average age of military and civilian offenders was between 27 and 31 years old, while the age of the victims was as young as 12.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090308/military_assault_090308/20090308?hub=Canada

Couldn't find this anywhere else.  Move or delete if I just missed it.
This is pretty vague hope to get more info.


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## GAP (8 Mar 2009)

> Of the 219 incidents, it states the average age of military and civilian offenders was between 27 and 31 years old, while the age of the victims  was as young as 12.



Uhh....lets compare apples and apples here....if you want to talk about averages, let it be averages, if you want to talk about the youngest offenders and victims, lets talk about that....don't mix them. 

It might be nice to compare relative stats in regards to 219 country wide incidents from the civilian population.....


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## George Wallace (8 Mar 2009)

What a poorly worded concise little report.  It is so poorly worded and brief that it actually is inflamatory in its insinuations.  How much more vague and inaccurate can a reporter have gotten?  12 years old?  Where does 12 years old fit into the CF, other than perhaps Cadets?  Where does civilian offences fall under CF or DND?  That report is nothing more than a convoluted piece of trash news, suitable only for the garbage.


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## NCRCrow (8 Mar 2009)

another slam against the best Military in the world!


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## a78jumper (8 Mar 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> What a poorly worded concise little report.  It is so poorly worded and brief that it actually is inflamatory in its insinuations.  How much more vague and inaccurate can a reporter have gotten?  12 years old?  Where does 12 years old fit into the CF, other than perhaps Cadets?  Where does civilian offences fall under CF or DND?  That report is nothing more than a convoluted piece of trash news, suitable only for the garbage.



Could possibly also be a dependant child who was assaulted on DND property. And like it or lump it-that reflects on the CF even though the case would be dealt with by civilian authorities. 

I know personally of one retired perv after wrecking havoc in the Reg Force that was trying to get onto the  CIL list to be the CO of a Summer Cadet Camp. Fortunately his offer of service was declined. 

For too many years some elements in the CF refused to deal with case of sexual and other types of assualt. This goes back even before 1968-look at the Stephen Truscott case. You reap what you sow. It would be interesting to see the MP study or whatever it is that set all this off.


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## George Wallace (8 Mar 2009)

I am not denying it could and can happen, and many of us probably know of various cases alluded to here.  This is just a piece of poor journalism in its ambiguity.  It is a garbage piece, open to a wide interpretation and speculation.


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## Armymedic (9 Mar 2009)

Article in Macleans Magazine:

http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=n030867A

Military report raises concern about sex offences against young people by older personnel

March 8, 2009 - 19:42

Alison Auld, THE CANADIAN PRESS

HALIFAX, N.S. - The Canadian Forces needs to step up its supervision of training facilities and family centres on bases across the country, according to a military police investigation that found a disproportionate number of sexual assault cases involved young people at the hands of older personnel.

In a draft report obtained by The Canadian Press, officials with the criminal intelligence section said sexual assaults against youth made up about half of the reported sex offences.

more on link


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## kratz (9 Mar 2009)

The Halifax Herald has added it's own spin on this story today with MFRC Youth activities, three bases and PRETC drawn into it. Sadly the media repeats recommendations like training and reporting the abuse, but no mention of the CHAP for cadets or SHARP for the military is already in place.



> Forces sex abuse hits youth hard
> Training facilities, family centres favourite targets for predators
> By ALISON AULD The Canadian Press
> Mon. Mar 9 - 6:46 AM
> ...


 Full story at link


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## Michael OLeary (9 Mar 2009)

> Of the 25 incidents in Borden, Ont., 10 involved cadets with eight of those charged being privates who were members of the Post Recruitment Education and Training Centre.



This is just one more outrageously misleading statement.

Is it saying that:

_"Of the 25 incidents in Borden, Ont., 10 involved cadets_ *[and of those ten]* _eight of those charged being privates who were members of the Post Recruitment Education and Training Centre."_

Or is it saying:

_"Of the 25 incidents in Borden, Ont., 10 involved cadets."_

AND 

_"Of the 25 incidents in Borden, Ont., eight of those charged being privates who were members of the Post Recruitment Education and Training Centre."_

... which MAY OR MAY NOT include Cadets and "Ptes in the PRETC" being involved in any of the same incidents.


While I can appreciate the fact that the youngest reported victim was 12, and the references to cadets leads a reader to believe that it may have been a Cadet, I do find it concerning that there was no further examination of age ranges.

Age of cadets

*Q: How old do I have to be to join Cadets?* (LINK)
A: You can join as soon as you've reached your twelfth birthday and you can remain until you turn 19.

Age of soldiers in PRETC (LINK)

CF Basic Eligibility Requirements

Be 17 years of age (with parental/guardian consent) or older;
# junior level Military College applicants must be 16 years of age;
# you may be enrolled in the Reserves providing you are 16 years of age (with parental/guardian consent);


So, theoretically, one or more of those incidents could have invlved a senior Cadet and a younger Regular Force Private ......


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## PMedMoe (9 Mar 2009)

kratz, I'd like to point out that the article in the Halifax Herald is virtually identical to the other links posted, right down to having the same writer as the second link.  There is no "spin" added.

I, for one, would need more concise information that what is given in the article.


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## CountDC (9 Mar 2009)

very vague info - which is normal when they talk sexual assault.

The Borden-cadet-PRETC really shows how vague and misleading the info could be.  To someone that knows absolutely nothing to very little about cadets and/or the mililtary this will seem to be a major problem of adults assaulting kids from the way the article is written.  For myself I see the possibilty of them talking about a 17/18 year old new to the military member  getting a 17 year old cadet mad at him and crying foul.  Sexual assault is just too broad of a term - get into a crowded elevator and have your hand brush another passenger and you could find the MPs questioning you about sexual assault. I knew a CWO that was called in on Sexual Harassment Charges - his offence was that he was a Caper and used the term "dear" when he thanked a female private for helping him. There was also the case where a guy I knew was picked up at the bar, woke up in the morning with the girl in his bed, had breakfast with her before she left and then the next day the police were at his door charging him with sexual assault.  He was saved in the end because of her friends testamony.

I would like to see a lot more details on this - such as matching of ages in the cases, sexes involved (not all assaults are male on female), circumstances and what actually happened.


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## old medic (9 Mar 2009)

The article is so badly worded, and confused on facts that it should be considered fake news.


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## George Wallace (9 Mar 2009)

Unfortunately for all the flaws that we have seen in this piece of garbage reporting, many Canadians are too lazy to actually question or research further.  They simply muddle on through life and get another negative view of the CF.


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## kratz (9 Mar 2009)

Moe,

Thanks for that. I had not followed the previous links so that lead me to think the Herald was adding more information.


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## Blackadder1916 (9 Mar 2009)

As much as I could similarly pick apart the syntax of this article (and it is mediocre at best) the essence of the piece is not the numbers, but the reported (and quoted) conclusions of the Military Police.

(emphasis added is mine)


> "*The number of reported sexual offence complaints involving cadets and young persons is a cause for concern* as young persons and cadets combined account for almost half of the victims of reported sex offences," states the 15-page report, done through the Military Police Criminal Intelligence Program and obtained under the Access to Information Act.
> 
> "This reinforced that rigorous policing of sex offence cases involving children must continue."
> 
> ...



It is understandable that most who frequent this means will get indignant when the CF is protrayed in a less than ideal light, however the story is based on a CF produced document.  Any indignation resulting from the conclusions presented should then most properly be aimed at the original drafters of that report.  Then again, the poor writing of the story may be a reflection of poor staff work in the source document.


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## OldSolduer (9 Mar 2009)

The article, as I understand it, was produced from the Military Police stat sheet, or something similar.
No matter how bad the article was or is, the fact is that _any undesirable press is reflected on all members of the CF, from the CDS down to the newest private at CFLRS_.
Somalia should have taught us that. Apparently we didn't learn a whole lot from that escapade.


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## The_Falcon (9 Mar 2009)

I think it is also prudent to point out that, without down playing the seriousness of the issue, that without the context of these situations, especially situations involving cadets/recruits at PRETC that these numbers are misleading.  As someone already pointed out, you can be in cadets until you are 19, and join the regs at 17, ergo can that lead to situations were teenage recruits get involved with teenage cadets (or even cadets/cadets), while they are both at CFB Borden?  Of course it can (and obviously does) happen.  Unfortunately for the recruit/older cadet, by virtue of the fact that they are in a position of trust/authority (by being in the Regs) under the law, it doesn't matter if the younger cadet consented to any sexual activities, even if they are close in age or heck the same age.  And teens being teens they are going to run their mouth off, and next thing you know a senior NCO/Officer gets wind of the activities and then MPs get involved, and the recruit/older cadet is charged, and the CF, looks like its full of sexual predators.

Again, that isn't to say serious assaults don't occur, and history has shown that they have, but without context, those reports are too vague.


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## chris_log (9 Mar 2009)

I'd like to see the rates in the CF vis a vis national rates. 

I'm also curious about the cadet stats. Let's remember that most cadet camps are on DND property, so the MP's would investigate regardless. Do these stats include civilians, older staff cadets etc? If a 18 year old staff cadet sleeps with a 13 year old course cadet (it's happened) that is sexual assault. 

I know this was an internal CF document, but still, how is this news?


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## Greymatters (9 Mar 2009)

OldSolduer said:
			
		

> The article, as I understand it, was produced from the Military Police stat sheet, or something similar.



Although the news article emphasized the most negative aspects of the original report, it all seems based on fact.  Hard to argue with that...


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## Armymedic (9 Mar 2009)

The rebuttal to any outrage outside the CF is that this MP report is to highlight a problem which we need to solve.

You can't solve a problem without knowing you have one. 

WE all know the inconsistencies and untruths, but joe civy may not.

Honestly though, has this story got any traction other than a one column piece on Sunday afternoon?


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## Michael OLeary (9 Mar 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Although the news article emphasized the most negative aspects of the original report, it all seems based on fact.  Hard to argue with that...



I don't think anyone is arguing the facts.  What is being countered is the way the news services have taken the available data that they allude to, and dumbed it down to a misleading mess of innuendo.

If they wanted to use the 25 incidents in Borden as an example (even if Borden is arguably not a typical Base for its demographics) then it wouldn't have taken much more ink/electrons to publish the list of 25 cases giving ages and components of the 25 assailants and victims.  Then the reader could do their own "analysis."


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## George Wallace (9 Mar 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> Although the news article emphasized the most negative aspects of the original report, it all seems based on fact.  Hard to argue with that...



And you know what they say about "statistics" don't you?


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## mariomike (9 Mar 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And you know what they say about "statistics" don't you?



Benjamin Disraeli said, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and STATISTICS."


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## medicineman (9 Mar 2009)

George Wallace said:
			
		

> And you know what they say about "statistics" don't you?



Statistically speaking, 43% of all statistics are statistically useless.

MM


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## Kat Stevens (9 Mar 2009)

And 36.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot.


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## BradCon (9 Mar 2009)

I had a stats instructor who conclude that a bovine growth hormone was a wise purchase based on the lone evidence that with the hormone cows were on average 20% heavier.
She didn't look at life span, general health, milk production, or even what that extra 20% of growth was.

When the media et a hold of stat, they generally make the same sort of conclusions as that instructor.


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## gwp (9 Mar 2009)

Of the 25 incidents at Borden (the location with the largest number) 10 were cadets, 8 were privates at the Post Recruit Education Training Centre. The remainder were other either "civilian" children or other persons. 

Overall of the total incidents mentioned in the report victims were
34% civilian
19% military
17% cadets
30% other youth

90% of victims were female; 34 % of victims were civilians; and 47% included cadets and other young persons. (one-third of the young persons - 17% being cadets)

Of the persons charged 98% were male
71% military
14% civilian
14% cadets
1% other youth

The report indicates that 17% of the victims are cadets and 14% of the charged are cadets.  That suggests that those "investigations" involved children with children. rather than other perpetrators.  Cadets with cadets activity can range from some form of aggression, to inappropriate horseplay, to experimental curiosity. 

The reason the report becomes inflamatory is found is this paragraph



> "The number of reported sexual offence complaints involving cadets and young persons is a cause for concern as young persons and cadets combined account for almost half (47% - 17% cadets, 30% other youth) of the victims of reported offences. "


  

While it is tempting ... it would be disingenuous in the context of the report to say that cadets are safer than other youth.  

Each summer there are several cases where a cadet does not want to go home from Cadet Summer Training because they have been safe away from home.  They hide in a locker or the washroom they are so concerned about going home to an unsafe situation after having been safe and well looked after at a Cadet Summer Training Centre. 

The reality is that these figures have nothing to do with the cadet program or even the CF... it is a societal issue. The cadet organization does everything possible and more than most youth organizations to prevent and report. 

The leadership in the Cadet Organizations is screened and examined more closely than any other group in the CF.  The Cadet Harrassment and Abuse Prevention (CHAP) program is given both locally and at summer training centres. 
  
It is also worth noting that the report says



> possession of child pornography 38 incidents makes up the highest number of offences involving the exploitation of children.


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## Greymatters (9 Mar 2009)

Michael O'Leary said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone is arguing the facts.  What is being countered is the way the news services have taken the available data that they allude to, and dumbed it down to a misleading mess of innuendo.
> 
> If they wanted to use the 25 incidents in Borden as an example (even if Borden is arguably not a typical Base for its demographics) then it wouldn't have taken much more ink/electrons to publish the list of 25 cases giving ages and components of the 25 assailants and victims.  Then the reader could do their own "analysis."



I am not protecting the writer, merely saying its hard to dispute them without the original report in our own hands to see if it has been unintentionally or maliciously misinterpretted.   A link to the original report would have been nice so we could see the details for ourselves.  

I might have missed it but I didnt see a link for that on this thread yet...


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## Neill McKay (9 Mar 2009)

Greymatters said:
			
		

> I am not protecting the writer, merely saying its hard to dispute them without the original report in our own hands to see if it has been unintentionally or maliciously misinterpretted.   A link to the original report would have been nice so we could see the details for ourselves.
> 
> I might have missed it but I didnt see a link for that on this thread yet...



I think it's noted somewhere that it's only a draft report, possibly got at by the press through an Access to Information request, so it's likely not yet available on the web (or otherwise published, except in the questionable form that we've all seen by now).


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## George Wallace (9 Mar 2009)

N. McKay said:
			
		

> I think it's noted somewhere that it's only a draft report, ........



That is even sloppier reporting.  Let's go way out on a limb and make this extreme statement:  "Oh Look!  I found a rough idea scribbled on this napkin.  I'll write a full Page Three article on it."    :


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## The_Falcon (9 Mar 2009)

The article I read on the sunmedia site, stated the report was obtained via an ATI request.


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## MAJONES (10 Mar 2009)

Just the media trying to invent a story.


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## ltmaverick25 (10 Mar 2009)

While I certainly agree that the press may be portraying the military in an unfair light yet again, we are also preaching to the choir on this one...

Regardless of what the numbers tell us about trends and whatever the case may be, this is a report we need to take seriously and as leaders, make sure that we do an even more diligent job to make sure this sort of thing cannot continue.  I am sure thats also preaching to the choir, but it is important that we look at this article from the other side of the coin as well.  We do ourselves a diservice by always being offended by everything written about us in a negative light.  We also need to note.  As someone else already said, had nobody in the CF commited these offences, the report wouldnt be able to exist..


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## ENGINEERS WIFE (17 Mar 2009)

Military taking action after sex assault report: MacKay
Updated Tue. Mar. 17 2009 2:27 PM ET

The Canadian Press

SHEARWATER, N.S. -- Defence Minister Peter MacKay says the military has taken action after a report highlighted sexual assaults of young people by older members of the Canadian Forces. 

He says he's `very concerned' about the allegations contained in the draft report - obtained by The Canadian Press - which was done through the Military Police Criminal Intelligence Program for the period from 2004 to June 2008. 

MacKay, who was speaking today at 12 Wing Shearwater for an unrelated announcement, says training and awareness are part of the Forces' efforts to address the issue. 

When asked to explain what action has been taken, MacKay would only say that if charges are laid, the military would deal with the matter in the same way as in the civilian justice system. 

MacKay, a former Crown prosecutor, also said the military justice system has been modernized in order to `marry up with the civilian justice system.' 

He said while the allegations of sexual assault in the report are not disproportionate in terms of their numbers, he stressed that any such complaint is `extremely troublesome.'


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http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20090317/military_mackay_090317/20090317?hub=Canada


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## OldSolduer (17 Mar 2009)

ltmaverick25 said:
			
		

> While I certainly agree that the press may be portraying the military in an unfair light yet again, we are also preaching to the choir on this one...
> 
> Regardless of what the numbers tell us about trends and whatever the case may be, this is a report we need to take seriously and as leaders, make sure that we do an even more diligent job to make sure this sort of thing cannot continue.  I am sure thats also preaching to the choir, but it is important that we look at this article from the other side of the coin as well.  We do ourselves a diservice by always being offended by everything written about us in a negative light.  We also need to note.  As someone else already said, had nobody in the CF commited these offences, the report wouldnt be able to exist..



Agreed. Well said.


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